the economic department of the university of Nigeria Nsukka is really working hard to expose all its students to couple of economic facts...please i would also like you to contribute to my understanding of economic activities..see this link for more details portal.unn.edu.ng

Catalans claim they are net payers to Spain as a whole, I would like to see the real numbers dig up by an Independent / =Neutral institution. Everybody believes their own fairytales. I worked in catalonia for a couple of years until unfortunately the company was relocated. But even more unfortunately really a lot of industries were closed in the last 10-20 years all over the place. In fact I believe there was hardly any company paying taxes over benefits back then(not talking about the corruption..) so now wonder what is even left with this crisis apart from tourism contributing so much to Spain. Now the reason for all that industries closing was not because of Madrid, well perhaps Spanish people should have been forced to buy less Chinese produce(bet Franco would have loved to do that) but hey a catalan would be the first to buy the cheapest I reckon...

Without getting into the rights and wrong's of a prospective Catalan independence I have to say I am disapointed by Charlemagne's lack of insight and analysis in this question.

Just a little bit of research would have revealed that in the FC Barcelona question, it would be incredibly likely that they would stayin La Liga. Otherwise the league and all its other teams, and particularly Real Madrid, would stand to lose most on both a financial and a sporting basis. Were they not admitted, they could play in the French Ligue 1, as for example a team from Principality of Monaco does. Or even be offered to join the Italian Serie A.

Planeta may or may not want to move, but it would absolutely not "absurd to be based in a country that had a different language... as its official tongue". Where do you find the capital of the Castilian-language music industry? Miami.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2012/oct/16/scotland-independenc... ("In warmer southern climes, the Guardian and other papers have been full of articles about Catalonia's renewed demands for an independence referendum from Madrid – something the Spanish conservative government is refusing to concede, in sharp contrast to David Cameron's accommodation of the SNP demand in Monday's Edinburgh agreement.
Barcelona fell to Spanish armies in 1714 – seven years after Scotland's parliament signed itself into the union – and the rivalry between Real Madrid and Barça is still reflected on the football field. But Catalonia is one of the richest parts of Spain (7.3 million people out of 47 million, against Scotland's 5.2 million out of 62 million) and its historical relations far more fraught – not least in the Spanish civil war of 1936-39 when it was a republican stronghold. Orwell's Homage to Catalonia [hence the title of this article; as I said elsewhere, TE loves plays on words] is still a gripping read."

Concerning Spanish anti-(non-Castilianized)-Catalan ultranationalistic people, after reading some newspapers, listening to some radio stations and watching some TV channels, I suspect they PROJECT their fears and obsessions onto others. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Castilians would be just as fine as Catalans if only most of them—quite a few already do— could understand and accept that many of them did to Catalans what the Imperial troops of a foreign French-and-Flemish-speaking Habsburg king-emperor who didn't even speak Castilian did to them in 1520-22. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Comuneros.jpg A catharsis, a metanoia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metanoia_%28psychology%29 would be necessary, but if they finally did, they would have to thank many Catalans (and many Basques, and some Galicians) for having shown them the right way.

Castilian and Catalan experiences are very different, though. Since Spain exists as a state, Castile was invaded only twice, in the early 1700s, during the War of the Spanish Succession, and in the early 1800s, by Napoleon's troops during the Peninsular War (Guerra de la Independencia, in which Catalans too fought the French). Brief episodes in the 1790s, in1823, etc and that's it. The Castilian peoples never experienced a long occupation or another power trying to impose its language on them and supressing theirs, changing the geographical names and even the first and family names. Never. Not even the French tried to do that.

As for the Catalans, they were invaded by Spanish and French troops in the 1640s and 50s, by the French years later, by the Spanish and the French again in the early 1700s during the War of the Spanish Succession, by the French again in the early 1800s, and apart from some other unpleasant experiences (General-Regent Espartero shelling Barcelona from Montjuïc Castle in 1842 for example http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/BNE.Barcelona.Montjui..., when he said "a Barcelona hay que bombardearla al menos una vez cada 50 años", Barcelona must be shelled at least once every 50 years) and a brief episode in 1934, again in 1938-39 by Franco's army, which comprised Italian, German and Moroccan troops. Goodbye Catalonia! Goodbye Catalan language!, Now you must speak "la lengua del imperio" (the "imperial" —i.e. Spanish—language), Castilianise your geographical names and even your first and family names, no more "Lleida", but "Lérida"; no more "Aleix", but "Alejo"; no more "Victòria dels Àngels", but "Victoria de los Ángeles", etc, etc,etc, etc, etc, etc, etc... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castilianisation.

And now they accuse Catalans of exercising a linguistic dictatorship of some sort. Ah, by the way, one of their "arguments" is: "how silly they are, they 'renounce' (?) Spanish, spoken by hundreds of millions of people, and prefer Catalan, a 'poor' (?) language spoken by less than 10 million people." It's very easy to rebut them: "Yeah, they are as silly as the Swedes or the Dutch, who insist in preserving Swedish or Dutch as their languages, instead of speaking German, much more important, or Finns, who prefer to speak their own language, Finnish, a Finno-Ugric tongue, instead of Swedish, a Germanic tongue, except for the Swedish-speaking minority there..." (Silence) ("Ah, no, but that's different"—"Why is it different?—"Because"... (silence), "because... hmm"... (triumphantly) "Catalonia is Spain!"—"And Flanders is Belgium, but the Flemish people prefer to speak Flemish instead of French, no matter how much important French is as a language"—(silence) Hmm..."but that's different"—"Why?"—"Hmm"... (looking at their watch) "Ah, sorry, I have an appointment with someone and I'm late" (they leave).

I forgot still another invasion of Catalonia, by the French again, in the mid 1790s. The campaign started well for Spain in 1793-94, they invaded French Catalan territory (Rousillon/Roselló/Rosellón) lost by Spain in 1659, but the Convention counterattacked in 1794-95 and they retook what they had lost and invaded parts of Catalonia, the Basque Country and Castile. Spain lost the war (Again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inoeB7GVZJo ) and had to sue for peace, betraying its Portuguese allies, who found themselves in a very odd situation. Six years later they actually invaded Portugal (the phoney War of the Oranges, Guerra das Laranjas in Portuguese) to please the French (Napoleon this time). Iberian solidarity!

Karma: six years later Napoleon invaded Portugal again in agreement with Spain and only a few months later he betrayed his ally and invaded Spain as well, thanks to its Bourbon king and his son the Prince of Asturias, a couple of cowardly imbeciles who hated each other...

Many Spanish anti-Catalans argue, that because the Catalans never had independency in their territory, they don´ t deserve it now either. This is totally wrong. The Catalans have always had the sense of the nation of their own, not to mention own language. Let´s take for example Finland. Finnish people were always under the total Swedish or Russian rule, until the czars Alexander I-II gave them autonomy.

Catalonian (Gad-God-Goth-Alania) people descend from Goths and Alanis. The Alanis (Eran- Iron as they called themselves) had their very own kingdom in Spain (409-426 AD). Before that they had established the Parthian empire in East with other clans, the empire, that destroyed every Roman try to occupy their land. The Historian falsely repeat, that most Alans went to the North Africa with vandals after the end of the kingdom in Hispania. It is not so. Big part of them stayed in Hispania, and they settled down around the bases they had established WHILE ENTERING TO SPAIN from PYRENEES. Isn´t it logical? Those areas around the their bases are today´s Basque Country and Catalonia…

Many Spanish anti-Catalans argue, that because the Catalans never had independency in their territory, they don´ t deserve it now either. This is totally wrong. The Catalans have always had the sense of the nation of their own, not to mention their own language.

Catalonian (Gad-God-Goth-Alania) people descend from Goths and Alanis. The Alanis (Eran- Iron as they called themselves) had their very own kingdom in Spain (409-426 AD). Before that they had established the Parthian empire in East with other clans, the empire, that destroyed every Roman try to occupy their land. The Historian falsely repeat, that most Alans went to the North Africa with vandals after the end of the kingdom in Hispania. It is not so. Big part of them stayed in Hispania, and they settled down around the bases they had established WHILE ENTERING TO SPAIN from PYRENEES. Isn´t it logical? Those areas around the their bases are today´s Basque Country and Catalonia…

My mail server classified "your " (TE's) twin e-mails as "Spam", I don't know why, probably because you sent them twice. I had to rescue them from purgatory... As for your links, WOT (a Finnish organization, by the way) considers at least two of them as dangerous or with a very poor reputation from all points of view.

In ethymological questions, there are often different interpretations. The fact that the Goths (later West and East Goths) lived originally in Sweden, which they left for the Continent for mysterious reasons never fully expained, is very telling. Until 1973, one of the titles of the King of Sweden was King of the Goths, Götes konung. The Swedish Tre Krona, the Three Crowns, refer to that: the Swedes, the Goths and the Wendes. Beautiful flag and beautiful coat-of-arms. Got = Gat = Cat, well, it's a possibility. Also Alans/Alanoi = alunya, no doubt. By the way, the Alans used dogs in battle, and in Spain you can still find "alanos" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alano_Espa%C3%B1ol ,not quite the same breed (now extinct), but not so different.

As a matter of fact, there's an agreement, virtually an "alliance", between Artur Mas, the president of the Catalan Generalitat, and Iñigo Urkullu, the leader of the Basque Nationalist Party who will most probably become the next lehendakari (president) of Euskadi (the Basque Country) next month, after the October 21st (Trafalgar Day) election.

Sorry, my internet connexion blocked while sending the message. After five min. waiting it still was blocked, without opening the TE-page, so I shut the computer ,re-started it and sent the message again. This time it went normally. While trying to do it first time, I just thought it didn´ t go through, sorry.

Talking about the jewish Bolsheviks, Trotsky definitely was one of the most important ones.
Normally Lenin is not said to be jewish, but he was as well. In his home they used to speak Yiddish, and while staying in Finland before the revolution, he used to write notes in Yiddish. He with his mates there, they all together communicated inYiddish.

I am surprised you still think the Goths ab-originally came from the North. This is proven false. The only aboriginals were and are samis, who were pushed more north when the Indo Europeans arrived there (to Sweden and Norway).

The Icelandic chief and historian Snorre Sturlasson (1179-1241) wrote Heimskringla (app. 1230), of which the first part is called the Ynglinge Saga, wherein Sturlasson describes the homeland of the Nordic and Germanic tribes as the areas south and north of the Caucasus mountains. They were divided into two groups, Aser and Vaner, which obviously are the names of Asher and Dan…(Note the rivers named after “Vaner” like Don, Danube, etc.)

After a war between the Aser and Vaner, which ended without anyone of them prevailing, Odin led the tribes to Northern Europe. (There were several Odins. Suhm writes of at least three different Odins. Odin was most likely not a name, but a title, which meant something like “lord, chief, no. one or prime minister”.In Russian, Odin means “one”).

When the tribes, led by Odin, came to the Baltic Sea, they divided themselves into two groups. One group went north across the Baltic Sea and became the ancestors of the Nordic tribes, such as the Danes (Daner), Swedes (Svear), Geats (Götar), and Norwegians. The other group went west across what today is Poland and became the ancestors of the Germanic tribes.”http://www.nordiskisrael.dk/artikler/danes_and_jutes_dan_and_judahdan.html

Flavius Ricimer was totally unknown to me, thanks for introducing him. He was German. You know, there was an area in Parthia called “Karmania” where the people were called “Kerman”?!.

“What little is preserved of the Parthian language also indicates a Semitic origin for the Parthians. Rawlinson states the Parthian word for “city” was “karta” or “kerta.”12 In chapter five, the Semitic/Israelite origin of Carthage was examined, and it was noted that the original Semitic name of Carthage was “Kirjath Hadeschath.” The original Semitic name of Carthage is also rendered as “Kart Hadasht,”13 meaning “new city.” The Semitic origin of Carthage is well-established, and they used the word “kirjath” or “kart (a shortened version of kirjath)” for “city.” The Parthians used the same word (“karta”) for “city,” indicating that the Carthaginians and the Parthians had a common Semitic origin. We shall also later examine the role of the Parthian “Magi,” an influential portion of Parthia’s ruling classes. An early Carthaginian ruler was named “Mago,”14 again indicating a common linguistic heritage with the Parthians.” Steve Collins

What comes to the alliance between Artur Mas and Urkullu, it does not surprise at all.

"Sorry, my internet connexion blocked while sending the message. After five min. waiting it still was blocked, without opening the TE-page, so I shut the computer ,re-started it and sent the message again. This time it went normally. While trying to do it first time, I just thought it didn´ t go through, sorry."

Mmmm... Be careful, the Mossad could be monitoring you. :-(

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"I am surprised you still think the Goths ab-originally came from the North. This is proven false. The only aboriginals were and are samis, who were pushed more north when the Indo Europeans arrived there (to Sweden and Norway)."

I am surprised to see that you misread or misunderstood what I wrote: "The fact that the Goths (later West and East Goths) lived originally in Sweden" (...), I didn't say that they "ab-originally came from the North". Take a look at this definition: "Originally. 1. with respect to origin; by origin: Originally he came from California." (Dictionary.com) But this does not mean that this guy was ab origine, i.e. "from the origin or commencement", from California, for he, his parents and even his grandfather might have been born in that state, but his great-grandparents might be originally (...) from Maryland or... Ireland! The term is ambiguous though, because it has several meanings, but I gave for granted that you would choose the right one, for as you see I know a few things about the Goths—as a matter of fact I studied the Gothic language and learned hundreds of words: saiwala (soul); quens (wife); wulfs (wolf...); fairguni (mountain); mena (Moon); usqiman (to kill); reiki (empire), etc, etc.

You're welcome. Ricimer himself was half Goth, since he was Wallia's grandson and Wallia was the King of the Visigoths.

No, I don't recall any Karmania (sounds like Germania) right now, but I am interested in the Parthians, so thank you.

“Mossad monitoring?”- wouldn´ t change my opinion about them.. Fy fan! As much as their society of the sick Talmudic sect controls financial matters, they can´t afford one thing- the truth.

Well, you know, I have tried to find more information about the Eranites, or the clan Eran (or Iron, how the Alans called themselves); There was a great war chief in Parthia, called Eran Spahbodh Rustaham Suren-Pahlav. That the noble family of Surena ruled Sakastan. According to Steve Collins, the name “Saka” derives from Isak- Isakas= Isak´s sons (like Saxons- I- sak-sons). The Sakas had occupied the territory earlier, and were part of the heart and soul of Parthia. The Eranites must have lived in Sakastan, and the clan´s name was also in a title of general Surena, so there must have been also Eran- Iron- Alanis in his cavalry. (In this case, Iron derives from “Eran”, not from Aryan, according to some historian, like Teh-Eran. The Eran was one of the clans of exiled Efraim.)

Marcus Licinius Crassus, the Roman triumvir, took the offensive against Parthia in 54 BCE. With regard to the size of the two armies, that of the Romans was reportedly greatly superior in numbers. At the minimum estimate, the army of Crassus would have numbered thirty-six thousand men. Parthian Eran Surena lead his cavalry against the Roman, and as the result, of the entire Roman force, twenty thousand are said to have been killed; while ten thousand were captured and deported to distant Margiana as slave labourers.

This might explain, why the Romans preferred to hire the Goths against the Alanis in Hispania, instead of fighting themselves against them.

From the Arsacid period the famous warrior Gotarz / Goudarz, might have had a Gothic origin.

I was kidding, I suppose that Mossad must be too busy with the real and numerous problems they have. No wonder...

Dug. I know much better the story of Marcus Licinius Crassus, his life, his campaigns and his final battle and death.

I forgot to tell you that my reference to the Goths having "lived originally in Sweden" meant that having left Sweden and having wandered all across Europe (they conquered and sacked both Athens and Rome!) for four centuries, the starting point (Sweden) and the final points (Italy, France and above all Spain) were meaningful in this heroic oddyssey. That didn't mean that I was saying they were Swedish aborigines (ab origine) like the Australian Aborigines, as you (wrongly) understood.

You are absolutely correct, they must be really busy with all the problems they have created...;)

You know, once I published something half-serious in web. It was kind of word art pro-Palestinia. After two weeks of publishing it, there was one nut after me. For example, I was in the local bar with friends and this nut was there and stared me like a mad man for hours, and one time threw match boxes ON ME, while taking a beer with a friend! Later I heard that he was a jew...

The Goths were powerful at that time. I only mentioned "the origin", because I read was once (not by you)some wrong information about the origin of Northern people. The Swedes and/or the Goths was said to be (ab)originals, that they had lived there since the end of Ice Age...

The (hi)story tells there was a Gothic woman warrior settlement in Caucasus. There was a women´s clan, and once in a year they met some tribe men in a "sacred" meeting. These women kept only girls born later, while their tribe men took the boys.

Herodotus (4.110-117) gives a story of the Sauromatians' origin from an unfortunate marriage of a band of young Scythian men and a group of Amazons. In the story, some Amazons were captured in battle by Greeks in Pontus (northern Turkey) near the river Thermodon, and the captives were loaded into three boats. They overcame their captors while at sea, but were not able sailors. Their ships were blown north to the Maeotian Lake (the Sea of Azov) onto the shore of Scythia near the cliff region (today's southeastern Crimea). After encountering the Scythians and learning the Scythian language, they agreed to marry Scythian men, but only on the condition that they move away and not be required to follow the customs of Scythian women. According to Herodotus, the descendants of this band settled toward the northeast beyond the Tanais (Don) river and became the Sauromatians.

I don´t know, if the story about Gothic woman warriors is a legend, or there was some real behind it. The fact is, that some Scythian tribes had female warriors. They have been found in the graves dressed like warriors and with wounds in their bones.

Could you elaborate on this comment? Thank you. Professor Sala i Martin is a very highly regarded economist, something I am not, so I would appreciate your views on why a world renowned scholar is, in your opinion, so far off the mark.

1. The resurgence of Catalan nationalism appears to be a reaction to the economic turmoil in Spain and Catalonia. Since this turmoil is essentially caused by outside forces combined, perhaps, by some mismanagement of the economy - by both Spanish and Catalan governments, this is a dubious basis for deciding to create a separate Catalan state.

2. There are arguments for and against creating a new Catalan state independent of nationalism. Would its economy be stronger as a separate state? Would government be more responsive to the needs of its citizens? Would the government's negotiating power be greater or weaker? Would any such advantages offset the higher administrative costs (foreign embassies, armed forces, all the legal and administrative details involved in membership of the EU, etc.) involved in independence? What would be the impact on trade with its neighbors?

3. Is a referendum the right way to decide on separation? A referendum is a decision made at a single point in time. Separatists can keep calling referenda until they get the decision they want. But there is no going back. And what about the wishes of other Spanish citizens? Separation would have economic and social implications for neighboring areas, so why should they be denied any input on the decision?
(An example is in Quebec where separation from Canada would isolate the maritime provinces which have little in common economically (or even historically, with the rest of Canada. Should they not also have a say in a decision to separate? And many Indian tribes have little sympathy for Quebec nationalists, who show no sympathy for their interests.)

4. Spanish and Catalan nationalists both have their foundation myths and versions of history. What difference does it make, in the third millennium, which tribe settled which area? This can only matter to racists, and racism should be opposed whenever it appears. Spain is a state. How it came to be a state and all the injustices inflicted on its various elements should be ignored when considering separation. What matters is the situation now and the prospects for the future.

5. All politicians are basically allergic to surrendering power. With few exceptions, they want to increase their own power. They manipulate their electorate to achieve their goals. Nationalist politicians do this be encouraging a sense of grievance and victimization even when this is not justified. Injustices to other communities are ignored as being irrelevant.

6. Nationalists reserve the right to decide who is, and is not, a member of their nation. So, depending on the nationalist, large sectors of the population (non-Catalan speakers, immigrants of all kinds, the rich, Jews, Moslems, etc.) may be excluded. See my comment on racism above. Spain and Catalonia were all but destroyed during the Civil War by opposing extremist ideologies - fascism, communism and anarchism. Nationalism is another extremist creed which history tells us can be massively destructive. It is not necessary for rational discussions of self-determination.

7. Language is a red herring. According to (English) Wikipedia, almost 40% of Catalan speakers live outside Catalonia. Separation from Spain would abandon those 3,700,000 individuals, and their culture. My conclusion is that, if the objective of Catalan nationalists is to preserve the Catalan language and culture, to be consistent they should focus on the entire Catalan-speaking population rather than seeking independence for a geographic region to the exclusion of a significant proportion of their constituency.

In conclusion, a debate on separation may be justified, but I believe that nationalism - as opposed to sovereigntism - as an ideology should be opposed.

1) I feel that "resurgence" is not the correct expression, increase would be more accurate. The independence movement has been around for donkeys' years (mainly people who considered themselves to be part of a Catalan people and nation - around 35% traditionally), what has changed is that those people who do not consider themselves to be Catalan have suddenly realised that it is not a "Catalan problem" it is a question of their schools, their hospitals, their public transport, their social services, etc. Although it has been, mainly, external circumstances that have triggered the present crisis, it is, at least, 30 years of fiscal drainage that makes it so much more difficult for Catalunya to get its house in order.
2. Your guess is as good as mine or anyboby else's.
3. Of course it affects others, including, for example, the inhabitants of North Catalunya. Your argument could then be used to include the populations of València, Illes Balears, Alghero, Andorra and the two or towns in Múrcia that speak Catalan and, of course, those speakers of Eastern Aragonès who reside in La Franja. Independence would also affect Europe so they get a say too. BTW, as the States would have to upgrade their consulate to an embassy, we'd best give them a vote too. It is the Catalans who, apparently, want independence so it is they who should vote. Nuff said.
4. I tend to agree, so, having said that, and to paraphrase Oriol Junqueras, Catalunya will be independent because that's what we want.
5. So! Nothing new under the sun, then.
6. You keep using "nationalist" like some sort of epithet. It is only that when one nationality imposes theirs over another. Verbigracia: Spain over Catalunya. Catalunya has no wish to impose anything, they just want separation. As somebody said recently, you cannot prevent divorce just by making it illegal.
There are famous Spanish sayings when used by men to explain domestic violence: La maté porqué era mia! - O mia o muerta! and others in a similar vein [I killed her because she was mine! - Or mine or dead!]. The has not been one single argument from Castille for not pursuing independence. All we get a threats of an ever more ridiculous nature. Please see the link: http://salaimartin.com/randomthoughts/item/454-backfire-english-version
7. 40% outside Catalunya? In what way would they be abandoned? Should they, at any time, wish to join an independent Catalunya, I am sure there would be very few objections from Catalunya. How they wish to do so would also be completely up to them and to billateral negotiations. Please note this latter word, it is something that is conspicuously absent from Castille.

Your conclusion: but that is just what we want, see above about not imposing our views on others. "Sovereigntism" new Word-of-the-Day, thanks.

The word "nation" is very hard to define. Scholars use a definition which implies to me "nation-state". After much thought, my personal definition is - All people who consider themselves to be members of that nation. I know that is circular, but since the word is an abstract concept thought up after the French Revolution, I can not think of anything more accurate. The term is what I call "fluffy", like a cloud is fluffy - hard to define, lacking in real substance or shape and looking different with time and point of view.

By contrast, a "nationalist" is someone who believes he has the right to determine who is, or should be, a member of his "nation". Some nationalists may say that only adherents of a given religion may be accepted; others that only true descendants of some theoretical founding tribe may be accepted (Quebec nationalists used to refer to "pure laine" (pure wool) for those directly descended from the original French migration about 300 years ago); only speakers of a certain language; and so on. Hence my fear of racism and bigotry.

When you say Catalunya has no wish to impose anything, I understand that to mean that a Catalan state would not impose itself on other states. I believe you. However, Catalan nationalists may well decide to impose themselves and their ideas on fellow members of a Catalan nation-state. Hence my belief that nationalists should be kept as far away as possible from political power.

(I think it was LB Johnson who said that America is a nation made up of many nations. That is true of most states. I am sure that many Catalans feel some loyalty to Spain - and follow Spanish sports teams, for example. The French example of suppressing these national identities is esthetically unpleasant to my eye and has only been partially successful. Each region retains its own cuisine, architecture, and so on.)

Going back to your previous post, I forgot to ask for clarification of your refernce to the rich, Jews and Arabs with regards to being left behind by an independent Catalunya. Was this a reference to them not speaking Catalan? For the moment, when refering to immigrants I shall be excluding the Latin Americans, a very special case.

As a result of the "Immersion Policy" practised in Catalan schools, the vast majority of second generation immigrants speak and live in Catalan absolutely naturally. It is common to see little Chinese, Senegalese and local kids playing in Catalan. Although there is strictly speaking no such thing as a Catalan ethniticity, there are obvious Jewish and Phoenician physical traits making your reference to Jews being excluded even more surprising.. There are many prominent Catalans who trace their roots to Jewish extraction. Not least Lluís Bassat who was responsible for organising the Olympic ceremonies in 1992 and was a high ranking officer in one of the leading advertising agencies (off hand, I can't remember which one).

Back to the above.

I feel your definitions of nation are as close to my own that we'll call them identical. In this sense, an independent Catalunya would, of course, try to establish a "national identity" as, indeed, they do today, but that would not infringe on individual rights for people to consider themselves something different. So the brits clould still be Brits and they would still be allowed to wear socks with sandals.

The only nationalism currently trying to thrust itself upon others is Castilian. You only have to read the reactions, there has not been one single even mildly conciliatory declaration from Madrid. All they can do is threaten will all manner of dire consequences and letting senile old army officeers (they're always army, never navy or air-force) menacing Catalunya with armed invasion all to the music of them throttling up their tanks with the little fuel they've got left. BTW, the Spanish army spent a (not so small) fortune on German Leopard tanks which are absolutely useless in Spain's mountainous terrain having been designed for a flat Germany.

You are, of course, right in assuming that many of the people living in Catalunya feel loyalty to Spain or follow her football teams. This is, precisely, why the November 25th election results will make for very interesting studies.

Just to clarify, I was not referring to Catalan nationalists as being anti-semitic or anti-Moslem. But taking nationalists as a whole, there is a tendency to exclude people who they may not particularly like because nationalists claim the right to identify who are their fellow nationals. Remember that the German National Socialism (Nazism) was a primarily nationalist movement, as were the various other brands of Fascism. And I am sure that you could find Catalan nationalists who are anti-semitic. And with changing times and political fashions, there could easily be a change away from the open attitude you describe.

My point is that nationalists tend to have a common psychology. You seem to be one of the more sympathetic of the kind, but even you appear to be fixated on requiring a linguistic conformity which is (or at least was) not indigenous. "Assimilate or leave." But that is much better than just "leave".

And the Brit in me thanks you for permission to wear socks with my sandals:)

This is all well and good, but the only nationalists acting in this way are the Spanish, today and for the last 300 (at least) years.

Language nor indigenous? Clarification, please.

The "Immersion" I was refering to as an educational tool in a multilingual society (140 differnt nationalities at the last count) has been praised by every single organisation that has studied it, including the UNESCO, European Community, and several world-renowned universities.

Wouldn't want you out in the world without socks. You can keep the Germans company.

"Language nor indigenous? Clarification, please." Sorry, not very well phrased. Look at it from the perspective of, say, a family whose ancestors moved to Catalonia a couple of hundred years ago from Castile. They consider themselves natives of Catalonia - true Catalans- but their first language remains Spanish. I am sure there are many. From their perspective, requiring them to adopt Catalan is just as unreasonable as the imposition of Spanish appeared to Catalan speakers back in the day.

We've had a similar sequence of events here in Quebec. The final compromise is that you can go to English school only if at least one of your parents went to an English school within Canada. When I elected to live here my son was 12 years old. We sent him to a French school because I wanted him to be fully bilingual but he rebelled (after much teasing from his school mates) and refused to learn the language. After he had wasted a couple of years we transferred him to an English school and he quickly picked up French because nearly all his new class mates had French as their first language. He is now fully bilingual. My point is that imposing French was a major mistake on my part and represents poor education policy. When there is a sufficient majority speaking the local language, it is picked up and adopted by osmosis. Assimilation is far better than imposition. No need to worry.

Sorry. Typos messed that up. What I meant was that I did not understand your statement that Catalan was not indigenous.

I am going out on a limb here, but I would be extremely surprised if immigrants of 200 years standing would have retained Castilian as their mother tongue. Even second generation immigrants who have stubbornly Castilian speaking parents are, more often than not, bilingual but lazy.

As my knowledge of day-today affairs in Quebec is very limited (nul, in fact) I must take this comment at face value. However, EVERY SINGLE international authority that has studied the Catalan system has praised it and recommended it for all multilingual societies. Pupils, like your son, entering the systems late would be given one-on-one tutoring and none of the children speaking foraign languages in my daughters' scholls have ever had any problems. These include, apart from the Castilian speakers, 2 kids from the States, a couple of Indians, several Morocans and a couple of brothers from Senegal. After one year they were all playing happily with no more problems other than those inherent to all playground situations. They had formed cliques with local kids and, as you know, the important thing is the clique not your origin. By the way, most of the cliques are multinational.

I seem to remembeer not having got back to the Latin Americans. These really have fallen into ghettoes, divided along the lines of their original nationalities and have started importing their gangs and street violence. We have several home-bred chapters of both the Latin Kings and the Ñetas who have been responsible for a number of murders and many more beatings, robberies and generally making life difficult. hese groups are, I have to admit, very militantly monolingual. hey are then surprised and shocked to find themselves being overlooked for the better jobs and careers.

You should be asleep by now! What I meant was that, in my example, the Castilian/Catalan family's "indigenous" language was Spanish whereas for most Catalans, it is Catalan. As an Anglophone living in a Francophone "nation" I am sensitive to the kind of coercion which goes on. As you say, within a generation, the kids adopt the locally predominant language, whatever it might be. So I don't see the need for restricting schooling to the Catalan language. That's all and sleep well.

"As I see it, one of the problems of many Castilian and Castilianized Spaniards is that they have created a myth and then they have believed it, taking it for a self-evident truth. According to this myth, there is a sort of 3,000-year lineage: Tartessians-Celtiberians-Roman Hispania-Roman Catholic Church-Visigothic Kingdom-Kingdom of Asturias-Kingdom of León-Counts of Castile-Kingdom of Castile-Crown of Castile-Catholic Kings-Spain."

She mentioned the Roman province of Tarraconensis as well (an imperial, not senatorial province... ;-) and kept repeating the old mantra/obsession of the Spanish nationalists: that Catalonia never existed as an independent country, one of the worst sophisms and fallacies I know, because it's based only on the fact that there never was a political entity called "Kingdom of Catalonia", with these exact words. I suppose that these people would say that Tuscany never was an independent country because there never was a "Kingdom of Tuscany" either, or that Luxemburg is not an independent country because there never was a "Kingdom of Luxemburg".

They love inventing stories, believing them and then trying to make other people believe them. Just a couple of examples:

"Spain is Europe's fourth economic power" (false, it's the fifth, and if you ask Putin, the sixth...

"Spain is the oldest country in Europe" (false —unless you believe the 3,000-year story—, Denmark, Portugal, France and others are older.

Thanks. Nothing surprising, knowing that The-Rain-in-Spain-Stays-Mainly-on-the-PLAIN, and... a algunos de la meseta les gusta hacer la puñeta. I wonder if someone who read that article will say that those two charts are about the Czech Republic because the Catalan President's wife is of Czech descent!

I have had a look for something similar in Catalan and have, for the moment, not found anything.

However, I did find that the expression "La lluvia en Sevillla es pura maravilla" is nothing more than the translation for the dubbing of "The rain in Spain stays mainly on the plain" for the My Fair Lady film and is not a Castilian saying as such. Both the Italian, Portuguese and Québecois would seem to have a similar origin,

I have been unable to find the Catalan lyrics, if they exist, but the linguistic equivalent would be: "Setze jutges mengen fetge d'un penjat" 16 judges are eating the liver of a hanged man".

But of course! Inspired by what you wrote ("Rantings from the plain (meseta) is getting ever more strident and hysterical") I was referring to the film 'My Fair Lady' and its differents versions, not to national sayings, and the film's wikipedia page in Spanish is where I got the information from: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Fair_Lady (scroll, scroll...) . I thought you would have seen the film and you would recognize "The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain" or "La lluvia en Sevilla es una pura maravilla". That's why I asked you if there was a Catalan version. But Murphy and his Law are always stalking... :-(

I know the "Setze jutges" saying, Montse, a Catalan girl-friend of mine, used to say it sometimes years ago (and she was a lawyer, so she knew what she was talking about! ;-) I think it's a good Catalan equivalent, thank you.

Murphy and his Law again! (they never rest). It's not the link I just gave you, but this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rain_in_Spain ... which is not the Wikipedia page of "My Fair Lady" in Spanish, but the Wikipedia page of "The Rain in Spain" in English...

I know, I know, I saw that film in English, dubbed into French and dubbed into Castilian Spanish...

I bet TE used "The Rain in Spain..." at least once for one of its articles, for they like puns, allusions and plays on words, especially referring to films and books, and I actually like they do it, because I have seen many films and have read many books, so I get the message...

Yes, you are right, I had forgotten that one, was it in the issue with the S pain and bull cover? But.. did you relate it to 'My Fair Lady' at the time you read it? I already referred to the allusion to 'Homage to Catalonia' in another comment.

The current issue ("Cry, the beloved country" alludes to the film 'Cry Freedom' (Richard Attenborough, 1987).

To be fair, the Spanish Minister of Defence, Pedro Morenés (a conservative aristocrat) disowned Vidal-Quadras and—though indirectly, without mentioning them—these retired army officers, but I think he should have stated very clearly that by no means do they speak on behalf of the Spanish armed forces.

By the way, people tend to forget that, according to the Constitution, the King of Spain is the Commander-in-Chief, just like the POTUS, which is why his message on TV after the 23 February 1981 semi-coup d'état was so important. I take that his ...ahem! "friend" Corinna zu Sayn-Wittgenstein who is "Strategical Advisor to the Spanish State" (sic; not even King Louis XV of France went so far) will tell him that to lose one or two jewels of his crown would be bad, of course, but to order the Leopard tanks, the parachutists and the "Foreign" Legion to Barcelona or Bilbao in a new 21st Century 'Reconquista' would be even worse. I don't think Brussels, Washington and London would tolerate that, nor would many millions of Spaniards, especially the younger ones.

Beansoft, you miss part of the Catalan sentence ("setze jutges D'UN JUTJAT mengen fetge d'un penjat" actually). That is quite a gory phrase (sixteen judges from a court eat liver from a hanged [man]is the translation), but it does not work like this.

The point (and the origin) of the phrase is that it is so tongue-twisting to anybody except a Catalan speaker that nobody (at least nobody in the remaining part of Spain) can say it without being immediately spotted, even knowing the meaning.

I am well aware of the reason for the expression which is rather meaningless out of context. Another I, personally like, is: Elàstics blaus mullats fan fàstic. But what I would really like to find is one that exploits the final "ll" which Castilian speakers are incapable of pronouncing.

I used to live close the Caserna de la Guàrdia Civil on Travessera de Gràcia and, just beside "La Seda", there is a small street called "Passatge de Llavalloll. I would love to have an address in this street just so I could dictate it to Spain over the phone.

Why are you so much in favour of Imperialists and against nationalists? Imperialism is the perversion of nationalism but for you is okay; is it because empires became such due to military rational expertise?.
Would you understand why so many cornish soldiers died in 2nd WW just to let Germany keep Czeckia and Austria after 1945? As you say, let´s move forward and forget what happened before September 1939.

Catalan, basque and spanish nationalists are not equal to "anti democrats", they are nationalists; whether democrats or not,their actions will show.

It seems that for you imposing what some minority think to the majority is very good provided that the minority supports the views of another bigger and already stablished NATION state.
You seem NOT to understand that dictatorship is bad, being catalan or basque, even SPANISH.

Referenda over independence could happen over and over again as far as the people want to have them, not until the, for you despised, nationalists win. Anyway, weren´t you in favour of progress? Well, situations move, change and why are you so against people`s will at any given time?. In democracies people rule, even in territorial matters.
If people of Catalonia once an independent DEMOCRATIC nation state would like to join France or rejoin Spain, NOTHING will impede so but for the free election of either France's or Spain's Sovereign voters.

As for the condescently patronising "I could go on, but life is too short", I remit you to the "—"Hmm"... (looking at their watch) "Ah, sorry, I have an appointment with someone and I'm late" (they leave)" Spanish Imperialists excuse which Accrux masterly mention before

- There is a sizeable group of Catalans independentists among the general populace. However, the current political party that is behind the latest call to independence (CiU) is mostly trying to scare-monge the central goverment so they get a better fiscal treatment. Problem is, there truthly is no more money left in the coffers to offer to the regional goverments...

- Since the latests years of the crisis, the sides of the debate have become much more radicalized in their postures. There are no federalists and the supporters for the current semi - confederated system are dwindling (and rightfully so, for it has been a failure in many respects). People want either a centralist French - like state or to secede.

- The shudden growth of independentism do have little to do with historical reasons. Many people rather than being radical catalanists or anti - Spain, they do believe that by seceeding from Spain they can escape the ills of our highly disfuctional democracy,as if the rule of law, transparency and efficient administration would pop up magically from an independent Catalonia. Desperation truthly increases the capacity of people to delude theirselves.

- The notion that a lot of Spaniards (not only Catalans or Vasques, mind you) have about how there is a "right to secede" inherent to every other nation of the Earth but ours would be comical, if not tragic, and shows the level of ignorance in all things regarding politics that my fellow countrymen have.

- Of course there is a solution to this. We all know what it has to be done: our territorial model should be closed in one way or another, ending with the insufferable indefinition of our current constitution that has plaged our country with tensions and lots of administrative redundancies and unefficiencies. However, none of the sides (central goverment and nationalists) really wants to end this whole issue. None of them will ever make a clear, definitive, legally - binding referendum a la Quebec or Scottland that puts an end to it. They will make a "consultative referendum", or a half assed bilateral pact and both sides will claim victory and injury at the same time. Spanish political parties need a constant source of tension to stir their fanatic constituencies. It is the worst form of politics. They feed off convivence issues and internal tensions, none of them give a crap about their country or the convivence between those who live on it.

"Fighting in the streets of an independent Catalunya"? As I have commented previously to another correspondent: You're pulling my plonker, aren't you? You cannot possibly believe that non-catalan(?) inhabitants of Catalunya would take to barricades.
This is a great post and includes (translated and original) an open letter to that Wert fellow. Is this an example of the Spaniard who is going to become a "Street Fighting Man" (Stones dixit)?http://bcnblog.barcelona-travel-guide.info/2012/10/16/catalan-independen...

Article 8 of the Consitution states that "The Army is guarantor of territorial inegrity". The territory would still exist, it would just have another adminstration.

Nobody believes that an independent Catalunya would provide a magic wand to resolve all the ills that afflict all countries in the world. However, the last 300 years under Castille has been such an obvious disaster that we could hardly do any worse.

I don't think that anybody believes that the right to secede forms part of other constitutions (it doesn't exist in the UK for example, the 2 leaders just got together and came to agreement - rather like Castille who prefer "cojones" to reason), but the principal is framed in the Declaration of Human Rights. Though originally intended for colonies, the underlying spirit can be applied to territories militarily occupied and sacked 300 years ago.

UNDER Castile? Come on... Castile is now one of the poorest and least influential regions in Spain (Spain, not Castile). It was over 500 years ago that the former Kingdom of Castile united with the Kingdom of Aragon, and Catalonia was never independent, not even from the Kingdom of Aragon. You might like to wonder what people from Asturias, Leon, Galicia or Extremadura would think about your nationalist rewriting of History, and your erasing them!. You might also want to think what will happen if a village in an independent Catalonia wants to secede or rejoin Spain, or what if the mayor of the town of Cartagena, or Vall D'Aran, next month decides to declare a referendum for a new independent nation in Europe. What is Catalonia? And what is all this fuss about? Sheer manipulation by greedy politicians.

My constant references to Castille stem from the fact that the central governments, whether in Valladolid or Madrid, have always seen the Spanish state as a mere extension of Castille. Andalucia, Asturias, Cantabria, Extremadura, etc. just being used as a source of income for Castille.

The two Castilles are only poor because they have been stripped of Madrid when the "café para todos" was applied to make 17 autonomous authorities. Nobody wanted Madrid, it would be far too dominant in any other community.

Cartagena? I doubt it, but let's cross that bridge when we get to it. La Vall d'Aran is far more probable. At least they could count on income from the elephant-hunting adulter's family. I see no reason why not. They are next door to a similarly sized Andorra which is making a good go of it.

I think that when he refers to "Castile" he doesn't mean the autonomous regions of Castilla y León and Castilla-La Mancha as such, but to "Castilians" in general and what was the whole Crown of Castile at the time of its union with the Crown of Aragon. The problem of this union, purely dynastic in its origin, was that its population ratio was 5:1. I just wrote this elsewhere, referred to the union of England and Scotland:

---------------------------------

"About the union of the two kingdoms. Acts of Absorption or Acts of Incorporation would have sounded horrible to the Scots. Acts of Union was much better, no doubt, but let's face it: when two countries which have a very different population ratio unite, that seems to be more of an absorption than just a union between equals. In 1707 or 1801 the population ratio of England & Wales and Scotland was 5:1; In 1901, 7:1; in 1981, 10:1. In 2011, 11:1.

If North Dakota and South Dakota united, given that they have a 1:1 ratio not only in population but even in area, gross state product, etc that would be a union between equals. If California and Oregon united, with a 10:1 population ratio that would be an absorption rather than a union between equals. Same thing for Boeing and Goodrich, General Motors and TRW Automotive Holdings or Procter & Gamble and Estée Lauder, if they ever united: a 10:1 ratio. Absorptions or mergers rather than unions.

500 years ago, when the Crown of Castile and the Crown of Aragon were united under a single monarch, the population ratio was 5:1 as well, even sharper in the case of Castile and Catalonia (which was a part of the Crown of Aragon). Another absorption paid dearly in the future by the Catalans who did not want to lose their culture and their language and be Castilianized."

"My constant references to Castille stem from the fact that the central governments, whether in Valladolid or Madrid, have always seen the Spanish state as a mere extension of Castille. Andalucia, Asturias, Cantabria, Extremadura, etc. just being used as a source of income for Castille."

I agree with your "a mere extension of Castile", but I would make a distinction between the kingdoms which were to the north and to the east and were older than Castile itself, i.e. Asturias, Galicia and León (Cantabria was as Castilian as Burgos) and the conquered lands to the south, the "New Castile" and especially Extremadura and Andalusia, which became virtual colonies. You can see that difference even now.

Why Spanish ULTRA-NATIONALISTS, yes NATIONALISTS with all the letters, always opose to self-determination of historical and present administrative entities that are recognised by them in their constitution using the reduction to absurd example of a little hamlet's alleged desire to secession? They threaten with that sillyness everytime the issue of regional/autonomus/nationality willingness to hold a referendum on independence arises.

The problem thet never see is that "nunquam" has been an agreement on the union of Spain, not even the crappy one that was perpetrated in the Scottish parlament in the XVIII century.
They take the union for Genesis granted, DEO GRATIA From ever.
They say that Catalonia was never independent, that it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon.NEVER MIND ITS STRUCTURE&CONSTITUTION&HISTORY, What for?
They fiercely and TERRORISTICALLY fought and fight the concept of Paisos Catalans whilst defending the independence of the Kingdom of Valencia from Catalonia. I thought they said Catalonia didn´t exist as entity so how Valencia could have been independent from a non-existant entity??
Every Linguistic, encyclopedia and even the hardly suspicious Francoist Governments believed that Catalan language was spoken in Valencia; they were right until 1977 because later on the so called Unionists, "anti Taifas kingdoms" and "with such many amounts of languages Spain would be a new Babylon", "Catalan is a dialect" supporters RULED THAT VALENCIAN IS A LANGUAGE, of course, DIFFERENT FRON CATALAN.
The Kingdom of Mallorca and by extension the Balearics are also permitted by them to have a history of being independent from Catalonia.The Valencian style campaign to DISCOVER that the MALLORQUIN was a DIFFERENT LANGUAGE failed but there are still RECALCITRANTS fighting against the IMPOSITION of the Catalan.

Summarising, only Catalonia was the non-existant and not a differentiated kingdom/entity from whom the spanish loyalist kingdoms of Valencia and Mallorca were independent.Were they also independent from Aragon?
Odd, you should think; that anathemises you as an INTOLERAN EXCLUYENT NATIONALIST PANCATALANIST.
If NON Militarily Imposed rules of the game are accepted prior to the referendum, the result is binding for all that previously freely agreed to take part. That never happened in Spain before being Spain, neither when the rules of post personal kingdoms union were forcebly not only changed but also SUPRESSED

The current situation cannot be solved. It is clear for me that Spain will fall apart, as will the UK and maybe other countries like Belgium.

Spain will suffer, but I dare to say that Catalonia will suffer even more. It has to do partly with the economic crisis, partly with the violence outbreaks that will follow a Catalan declaration of independence in Catalonia self. You seem to forget that 30 to 40% of Catalan residents are not Catalan, most of them are Southern Spaniards. Most of them would reject independence and start fighting for their linguistic and national rights within an independent Catalonia.
It is unclear what the Spanish army would do. But it certainly won't be passive in such a situation.

As for the EU - don't be fooled. The EU is also falling apart and would not intervene military (ask the English about such an intervention) - Greece is on its best way to be not only an economic problem for the EU, but also a political and military one (see Cyprus), the Russians are observing closely the situation and this time they will be present in the Balkans (Cyprus, Greece, Serbia...). The EU will have enough to do in the European Southeast.

We will have in my opinion two "lagers" in Europe regarding new countries and possible conflicts:

- The Central Powers (Germany and satellites), they would support politically the Catalans for sure, but not military, since they will be far more worried about Russian influence in the Balkan and the new conflicts in the former Yugoslavia (and even in Bulgaria)

- Peripheric Europe (Spain, Italy, Orthodox countries, to a lesser extend England), they won't support any Catalan declaration of independence. Maybe they won't form a military alliance (the UK surely not), the Spanish will seek first the help of the US, but who knows if the US refuses... Russia could enter the Western European stage.

Spaniards are beginning to realise that they do not have any friends within "hard-core" Europe.

Welcome to Europe 2014 a hundred years later: Poverty, nationalism and war.

Good comment, Martin1789, though a tad apocalyptic, I think. I wouldn't say that the situation cannot be solved, but it certainly is extraordinarily difficult to solve. It's up to the Spanish government. An important conservative politician (PP, the ruling party) just said that the Catalans who want independence are like ETA terrorists. ("However, in comments likely to further raise tensions on Monday, one-time Popular party interior minister, Jaime Mayor Oreja, appeared to compare Catalan nationalists with the Basque terrorist group Eta". http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9113ddaa-0be8-11e2-8032-00144feabdc0.html It'an "old" Financial Times article, but deserves to be read.

Spanish politicians just can't go around saying things like that. As for Artur Mas, Catalonia's president, he just said that if the Spanish government does not allow the referendum they want he will internationalize the Spanish-Catalan conflict.

As I see it, one of the problems of many Castilian and Castilianized Spaniards is that they have created a myth and then they have believed it, taking it for a self-evident truth. According to this myth, there is a sort of 3,000-year lineage: Tartessians-Celtiberians-Roman Hispania-Roman Catholic Church-Visigothic Kingdom-Kingdom of Asturias-Kingdom of León-Counts of Castile-Kingdom of Castile-Crown of Castile-Catholic Kings-Spain.

Fine, it's a remarkable and often glorious history, no doubt, in which many Catalans and Basques participated as well, but... what about the others? The other Iberians, the Celts, the Carthaginians, the Suebi, the Alans, the Vandals, the Byzantines, the Emirate and Caliphate of Córdoba, the Arabs, the Berbers, the Kingdom of Granada, the Jews, the Moriscos, the Protestants, the Kingdom of Navarre, the Basques, the Kingdom of Portugal, the Catalans, the Counts of Barcelona, the Kings of Aragon, the Crown of Aragon, etc? Well, they were conquered, Castilianized, expelled, burnt alive, lost or just forgotten. So, when some of those (Catalans and Basques, mainly) who managed to survive the Castilianization and did not forget their culture and their language feel that they are Catalans and Basques rather than Castilian Spaniards, and would prefer to have their own republic instead of belonging to the (rather peculiar, by the way) Spanish monarchy, many Castilians and Castilianized Spaniards perceive this as a "betrayal", a separatist trick, an attempt to destroy Spain, etc., and react accordingly.

It's not just "patriotism", it's something like "this is such a beautiful country, with such a glorious history, how can they want to leave it?" Which reminds me of a man saying "I am such a handsome man, so virile, how can this woman want to leave me?" Sometimes they even kill them and then say "o mia o de nadie" (mine or nobody's) or "la maté porque era mía" (I killed her because she was mine). There is another problem: they cannot get used to the idea of looking at a map of the Iberian Peninsula and seeing Catalonia in another colour (but they have got used to see Portugal, Andorra and Gibraltar as different countries or territories). Another very important factor: Ten years ago Spain was the 8th economic power in the world and the majority of Spaniards (including many Catalans and Basques) liked this, of course. PM Aznar even dreamt of Spain being accepted in the G7 group and lobbyed, soaped Bush, etc to achieve it. He failed. Now, Spain is in the 13th place, though many Spaniards still say 9th, 10th, etc: they can't get used to reality as it is and to having Brazil, India or Australia ahead of them. Catalonia has about 17% or 20% (there are different methods and sources) of Spain's GDP; if Catalonia became independent, Spain would still be in that place, but in a few years it might be behind Mexico and Souh Korea and be the 15th country in the list.

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"It is unclear what the Spanish army would do. But it certainly won't be passive in such a situation."

There have been some retired colonels and generals saying things in newspapers and TV channels, but the Spanish Army as such cannot do anything, unless ordered by the Spanish government, which in an extreme case could resort to article 8 of the Spanish Constitution. But I think that if a day came when the BBC, the CNN, Sky News, Rai News, France 24, NHK, Al-Jazeera, Press News, etc showed a Tiananmen Square-like scene taking place at Catalunya Square in Barcelona, Spain would become the Serbia of the 21st Century and would be doomed.

I would have liked to comment on other interesting things you say, but my own comment is becoming too long.

Fully agree. Only to add that "this is such a beautiful country, with such a glorious history, how can they want to leave it?" bears inside (a) the recognition that "they" are NOT "us", thereby EXCLUDING us and, simultaneously, (b) that "they" must be idiots if they want to go their way instead of just "merging" with us, therefore disappearing as a cohesive entity. In other words: WE know better, THEY are different and THEY are idiots if they believe THEY can decide anything on their own.

That is, Catalans are a COLONIZED people and an inferior one, who are even unable to see the truth and merge with us, let alone decide by themselves about their affairs.

And the real, real problem is that this idea -which is widespread- is subconscious. Nobody seems to have thought what is the real and full meaning of it.

Anyway, it's also a remarkable mental mechanism, already used by many Spaniards in America after 1492: "these native indians are not human beings, just two legged animals, without a soul, therefore we have the right to enslave them, exploit them and even kill them." Same thing for the African slaves. Even those who were more humane and thought the natives were human beings and had a soul were patronizing: "these poor creatures are ignorant heathens, we must protect [i.e. colonize] them. and teach them the true religion, the true language and other things"

Many Spaniards see Catalonia as a region of Spain, not better than Murcia (with due respect to people from Murcia), except that many of them speak a different "dialect " and dance a sardana instead of a jota, a chotis madrileño or a muñeira. This is why they keep saying that Catalonia never was an independent country, thus negating their very existence as a nation and their right to decide by themselves. The remarkable thing is that even if this were true this would not change anything, for Québec never was an independent country, nor were the 13 American Colonies when they decided that they no longer wanted to be a part of the Kingdom of Great Britain. By the way, if no fiscal, federal or confederal solution was possible and Catalonia had to declare its independence, most of what Americans wrote in 1776 would be valid as well for Catalans now:

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

Soooo!Hold your horses!!
It's funny that you talk about Catalonian "independence/Home rule" and make such a big mistake about something very much linked to that: Gibraltar.
The decreeds of Nueva Planta(new status) would have never existed had the recently formed United Kingdom of Great Britain (Act of Union with Scotland) not reached a deal with the Borbonics about Gibraltar in 1713: Treaty of Utrech. The british walked away from the war relieving the Borbonic forces from a second and maritime fronts and able to focus on the Eastern territories.

Gibraltar was taken from Spain(Andalusia as part of Kingdom of Castille)as a militar Colony.
Gibraltareños were as Spanish as Linenses or Algecirenses; I say "were" because most left the colony and the remaining were supplemented with moroccan sefardy jewish, malteses and genoveses."Inhabitants" of Gibraltar have no rights as "Citizens" because there is no such a thing, just "de facto" population.
They may have a sort of British citizenship, there were changes about Commonwealth/colonies citizenship in the 70´s??. They can decide about their status as much as the people of Hong Kong or Macau. It is not only me saying that and although the UK disputes it, nothing legally they can do because the reason for the very existance of the COLONY is the Treaty of Utrech between Spain and UK.
Had Spain be as strong or as important as China or Egipt and we would have had another Hong Kong style "surrender/devolution" or Suez fiasco.

Aside from that I did watch the first Grande Classico of the season and in the words of Guillem Balague "It's the most politicised the Nou Camp has been since the 70's", not that I would know because I wasn't around in those good old days. But I do worry about people politicising sport especially in a country where it seems that the sports people - in particular the national football team - are the only ones capable of doing ANYTHING right.

It is obvious to anybody with a minimum of knowledge of current affairs, that the Catalan government (together with practically every other in the world) has huge economic problems. However, to state that these are "bigger" is a big leap into cloud-cuckoo land.

Arguably, all lot of these problems have been exacerbated by forming part of Spain. The lying slime bag Spain has a PM, is ridiculed all over the world as a prevaricating incompetent. The government refused to publish the annual budget until after the Andalusian elections and is now putting off the bail-out until after the elections in Galicia and Euskal Herria.

Thus it makes economic sense to secede from Spain and try to straighten out these problems on our own. Will we make a better job of it. Neither I nor anybody else really knows, but it would be very difficult to do it any worse.

There have been, and continue to be, protests against the cuts in Catalunya. We don't have the police wading in like a marauding band of Vikings, so they don't make the front pages.

You are in for a rude awakening, incrementalist. Catalans are NOT incrementalists but are fed up with being patronizingly abused and sucked dry, and expected to acquiesce and smile on top.

A "red line" has been crossed, and -difficult though it seems right now- there is no return. Quite sweeping changes have to be introduced in Spain (federalism is preferred -but one cast in steel, so that it be impervious to "tribunal Constitucional", legal, military "salvapatrias" and other miscellanous foolishness- or it will have to be secession).

What is for sure is that Catalans are fed up with paying the fiesta, being called robbers on top and being expected to acquiesce and smile on top.

I wonder how many people who read this article, contributing a comment or not; have realized that its title is an allusion to George Orwell's 'Homage to Catalonia', a fine book I read a long time ago and I recommend. The Economist just loves this kind of puns or plays on words, some of them are almost like a challenge for its readers.

This thread is remarkable. I see that Franco's "Judaeo-Masonic" conspiracy is back, though I saw no refererence to the so-called (by the Franco regime) "Contubernio de Múnich" (the Munich conspiracy) of 1962. Funnily enough, in Latin a "contubernium" was the smallest unit of the Roman army, eight legionnaires (contubernales) sharing a tent and commanded by a decanus. A modern squad, more or less. 118 Spanish politicians of very different parties, living in Spain or exiled abroad, who opposed the Franco regime gathered in Munich for a few days in June 1962 to talk. 118, so... 13 decani and 13 contubernia plus 26 servants, but... who was the 118th politician? Was he a high- rank mason? Did he participate in the Alcàsser ("Alcacér") killings or was he too old for that?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contubernium

Beansof57, is it true, "it WAS the Catalans that killed Christ"? Ach so... Now I understand what the "venganza catalana" (the Catalan revenge, la Venjança Catalana for you) was!

Trantorean, fine comment! (Oct 12th, 13:49) I just read it and recommended it.

joangrau, as a matter of fact it was Charlemagne who created Catalonia (though not with that name) when he created the first Catalan counts of Girona, Osona, Barcelona, etc. The Counts of Barcelona gradually conquered or annexed the other Catalan "counties" and in 1164 they finally became... KINGS! Of Aragon, yes, but, though not officially, that was like saying Kings of Barcelona/Catalonia/Aragon. Nowadays, Castilian-Spanish nationalists affirm that Catalonia never existed as an independent country, which is remarkable even for them!

For erudite and ardent Castilian-Spanish nationalists: Count Ramon Berenguer III the Great of Barcelona (1082-1131) was referred to as "catalanicus heroes, rector catalanicus and dux catalanensis". This can be found in the liber Maiolichinus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liber_maiolichinus which is probably the first extant mention of Catalonia. By the way, he married María Rodríguez de Vivar, El Cid's second daughter, and Berenguela, a daughter he had with his third wife, married King Alfonso VII of Castile, the Emperor, no less, so he wasn't that bad... Look at him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ramon_Berenguer_III.jpg And he wasn't King of Aragon yet! His grandson would be.

-----------------------------------

Sorry folks, I didn't mean to be pedantic...

So try to imagine what might have happened if I had actually wanted to be pedantic! ;-) And consider yourselves lucky: there is a 5,000-character limit.

Accrux, I am unsure of how closely you follow Spanish current affairs, but the reference to the Catalans killing Christ comes from an article written in El Mundo in which a Canarian writer made just such a claim. His argument was that, prior to his appointment as governor of Jerusalem, he held the same post in Tarragona and took his personal guard with him when moving to Palestine. You can find the article by Juancho Armas Marcelona at http://elmundo.orbyt.es/2012/10/06/tu_mundo/1349559230.html.

Apart from my own pedantic contribution, the rest of your comment is spot on.

Hah-hah-ha! You guys go a little bit too far now! As far as I know history, Pontius Pilatus washed his hand of the crucifying. He coudn´t find anything wrong in Jesus.

As a matter of fact, those who crucified Christ, were converted edomites farisees, who lived in Judean land. More original Judahites (Israelis) habitated Galilea, as Jesus too was Galilean in his time. Those edomites were forced to convert to monotheistic Jahve-religion 200- 100BC during the Maccabee´s government, the other choice would have been exile from Judean land. They converted, but keeping secrectly their babylonic, polyteistic ritual murdering habits.

Later those Judean edomites converts rebelled against Romans and finally were kicked off from Palestinia. The Judahites in Galilea were alloyed to stay in Galilea, without sending to diaspora.

For Spain´s bad luck, many of these edomite converts were moved to Spain. Nowadays they are called sefardis. Because of their babylonic habits, like ritual murdering christian children, especially in Pass over, they were finally forced to leave Spain. Some of them "converted", but unfortunalely shit is shit, even when cooked with honey.

These edomite jews financed and created the masonic organisation, where they control the things. The highest masonic lodge is B´nai B´rith, with only jewish members.

Pretty close, Beansof57, pretty close, but alas, there are too many things and I have to be very selective. Ars longa, vita brevis. No, I hadn't read that article and I missed the whole thing, so I thought it was a joke or irony of yours. Thank you for the link, I just read the article (I was surprised that Orbyt didn't charge anything for it, I never paid them or The Times a dime, nor will I). I know (not personally) Juancho Armas, i know he is from the Canary Islands, he's full of himself and thinks he's Casanova (Giacomo, not Rafael). Not my cup of tea, to be honest.

Funny, I was telling my story about the contubernium and had missed your allusion to Pontius Pilate and the article yiu mention. A very Roman day, yesterday (the fourth day before the Ides of October of the year MMDCCLXV of the Foundation of Rome, or... was it already today, the third?). It's a hoax, obviously. Pontius Pilate's life before his Judaean story is virtually unknown. (...) "y se llevó de Cataluña -también por orden del Imperio romano- su guardia pretoriana (de catalanes) y un par de legiones de leva obligatoria" Nah... Pretorian Guard for a governor at Tarraco? Roman legions in a senatorial province? So far as I know, at that time there was only a legion in Hispania, and in an imperial province, of course, but I might be wrong in this and I don't feel like looking it up now. Well, he just wanted to laugh at Catalans, it's fashionable these days among Castilian-Spanish nationalists, as you know well. I sympathise.

Many of your comments are spot on too, but recently you mentioned three of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (Spanish newpapers), but you forgot the fourth one: ABC. La Razón's twin brother. Its colour covers are often demagogic and chauvinistic, and they seem to be obsessed with Catalonia. Take a look:

Yes, indeed, the name "Madariaga" is quite familiar to the Alcacér case as well. According to the public information of Garcia,(the father of Miriam, one of the murdered girls) one guilty and participator was the brother of Javier Solana, Luis Solana Madariaga, jew from his mother´s side, where that name comes.Luis Solana is also a very good friend of king Juan Carlos, who was in Valencia too when that all happened.

Hmmm... I just mentioned—though not to you— The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse and now you tell me about "Madariaga". Like police detectives and scientists, I don't believe in coincidences, so I am beginning to suspect that there IS a conspiracy somewhere... Not necessarily Judaeo-Masonic, not necessarily a "contubernio", just a normal conspiracy.

"Even the Catalans don't claim that their history stretches that far back."

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Notice the contradictions of the Spanish nationalists: on the one hand, many of them affirm that Catalonia never existed as an independent country, but on the other hand one of them says that the 'Praetorian Guard' of Tarraco and two Catalan legions, no less, were sent to Judaea to crucify Jesus Christ and other people. Jews, Iron Girl, Jews.

Yeah, the centurion looks Catalan and his Catalan accent is noticeable. Not as noticeable as Eduard Punset's, but still noticeable.

P.S. CORRECTION. I said that Tarraconensis was a senatorial province at that time. I was wrong, it was an imperial province (the senatorial province was Baetica), therefore legions could be garrisoned there, including "Catalan" legions... Don't bother to whip me, I already whipped myself :-(

Iron girl, Beansof57, I have been reading some of your conversations. You seem to be interested in these matters, and so am I to some degree. Do you know Acharya S (D.M. Murdoch)? I read her bulky essay 'The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold' and I found it extremely interesting. Except when I was a kid, I never believed that that Galilean rabbi was the son of God, or even that he existed at all. I respect those who do, of course.

She has a webpage: Truth Be Known. It looks like one of those shops, I know (which is why I don't cut and paste the URL, respecting The Economist's Terms of use), but she is a serious scholar. Some of the articles are interesting.

Thanks for the info. I'll have a quick shufty. As a practising atheist, I am extremely interested in all things religious, Unfortunately, this is no more than an amateur hobby fitted in between many other things. I have always been fascinated by the great similarities between the myths of all religious tendencies and am striving to know more.

However, I feel that the "Blood Libel" is not a religious problem as such, rather it is one of prejudice, pure and simple. Although there may be some element of truth (I will find it very difficult to believe that the blood was ever used to bake bread) in the origins of the myth, I would need a lot more evidence to justify systematic sacrifice. Even the Christians gave this up some time ago.

We really have strayed well "off subject" here and I will not be making any further posts purely on this matter. Not least because I do not know much more yet.

I woudn´t talk about “conspiracy”. It is more like making a puzzle, and all the pieces match together surprisingly well, even if “officially“ there´s nothing.

There is one rare link from Alcásser case to so called Gordoban case, where two children disapeared in a strange way from their father. Shortly said, according to the scientist of police, the burned bones found in a father´s farm were of animals. Later somebody offered to make a second reseach of the bones, and soon he stated the bones were of small children. The bones were sent to third part, and surprisingly the name of that “third part” was the same, than one participant ( one movie maker, linked to snuff films) to Alcásser case. Brothers. I don´t believe in coincidences either.

The following could explain why JC has so many mason friends. It is also said, that he is 33.degree mason himself, meaning he has participated in the Last Scottish Rite, which includes human torture and sacrification;
According to James Allan Dow, JC is the great-grandson of Alphonzo XII King of Spain, whose real father was Enrique Puig y Molto, a descendant of Shabbatai Zevi. Sabbatai Zevi was a Sephardic (Edomite) Rabbi and kabbalist who claimed to be the long-awaited Jewish Messiah. He was the founder of the Jewish Sabbatean movement.

Later Jacob Frank, whose father was a sabbatean, brought the cult in Europe. He was financed by Rotschilds, the “illuminated” followers of the cult, Rockefeller (Bohemian Grove where they serve a giant owl- moloch) and Prescott Bush (Scull&Bones). Zionism and globalism of these bankers are based on this kabbalistic “illuminating” cult. Not surprisingly, they also financed Hitler and a nazi government. Hitler´s grand father was Rotschild of Wien. His YHG was E, which is common in edomite-origin jews, also in ashkenazis. Hitler really wasn´t European.

Here one person tells publicly about her experiences in a sabbatean frankist family:

On May 1, 1989, 29 year old Vicki Polin appeared on the Oprah Winfrey Show and explained that her family was part of a Satanic cult dating back to the 1700’s that engages in ritual human sacrifice, incest and cannibalism.

“She is describing the Illuminati which originated in the Frankist Movement in the Eighteenth century. Jacob Frank, born Jacob Leibowitz (1726-1791) led a major Satanic heresy that shook the Jewish world. They believed that the Messiah would return if the world went over to evil completely, so they encouraged all sexual licence and Satanic Evil as the ultimate Good. Financed by the Frankist Rothschild banking syndicate, they subverted all religions and national elites by assuming every religious and political hue. They took over Freemasonry and are now in the final stage of establishing their world government a.k.a 'globalization.'”

-James Allan Dow: J C of Spain
-English royal family has its ties in masonic order as well.
-“Freemasons open a lodge at Buckingham Palace” by Daily Mail

Later Jacob Frank, whose father was a sabbatean, brought the cult in Europe. He was financed by Rotschilds, the “illuminated” followers of the cult. Zionism and globalism of these bankers are based on this kabbalistic “illuminating” cult. Not surprisingly, they also financed Hitler and a nazi government. Hitler´s grand father was Rotschild of Wien. His YHG was E, which is common in edomite-origin jews, also in ashkenazis. Hitler really wasn´t European.

There is a mistake. Rockefellers and Persott Bush didn´t finance Frank, of course not. They financed nazis.

Ps. I´m not Margaret Tatcher¨s daughter.  “Iron” is a tribal name for Alanis. Catalans are partly the same Alanis, as well some Basques. Iron- Alanis had a kingdom in Hispania, Spain. They also established some cities like Gerona/Girona, Irun etc. Iron is my ancient family name. (nothing to do with nazis, nor Thatcher) Alanis used to call themselves in that name. It origins from “Eran”. The Eranites, Tahanites and Bactrian were the back bone of the glorious Parthian empire. Surprisingly, according to some historian, these tribes were the clans of the tribe Efraim, which was exiled by Salmanasar, an ancient Assyrian king to the lands of Assyria and to the cities of Media. Well, my ancient fathers took the control of the country where they were exiled, and established some empires there. Falsely, we are brainwashed by bull-shit of Aryans. According to historical and linguistic reseach, the Indo European languages derive from Hebrew. It is logical. There are some zionist-political reasons why this all is hidden from the world.

If you don´t believe this, read for example “ Phonological similarities between Hebrew and German by Terry Marvin Blodgett, Utah University. It surely will surprise you. I was quite stunned!

There is one mistake in the message I wrote before. Rockefellers and Prescott Bush didn´t finance Frank, they all together financed nazi government.

I used to read Mircea Eliade. His 'Patterns in Comparative Religion' is especially interesting.

I am not interested in blood libels, protocols and that kind of stuff. I prefer more factual things, Max Bauer, Marx, Sartre, Henry Ford ('The International Jew' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_International_Jew ), etc. For a Jewish point of view, I prefer men like Martin Buber and women like Hannah Arendt, not only concerning "Jewishness".

Well, I read all your comments, but I don't have much to say about them (you didn't have anything to say about Acharya S either, as a matter of fact you didn't even say a word!). I know some of the things you tell, but I had never heard about many of the others. I used to read a lot of books about esoterism, including Guénon, Madame Blavatsky, Frithjof Schuon and many others, and I read almost everything C.G. Jung wrote —not an easy task!— Nowadays I tend to be sceptic, but I am open to any ideas or information.

I agree with some of the things you say and I just don't agree with others, but this thread ('Hostage to Catalonia') is not the place for such a discussion or debate, it would be too off-topic.

Sorry, I do not have much time now to read and get to know Acharya S. I´ll do it later.

About esoterism, I find it like a swamp, including Jung etc.

You thought the things I said were off-topic. I don´t think so, because there was a question about the society from which Catalonia wants to separate. I think quite all these things are in relation behind the stage, also the economic crise.

Is astronomy linked somehow to the elections in USA?
I saw one blog The Ides of October in relation to Obama-Romney game, I don´t know. I would vote someone else, not backed by financial institutions.

I did not mean "the things" you said, just some things, and I didn't refer to you in particular, I referred to the thread in general, including Beansof57 and myself. If I commented on what you wrote I would certainly go off-topic.

Of course it is.

Could you tell me where that blog about the Ides of October is? I would like to read it.

Last year the company of Tony Tamer, (who works for Romney´s electoral campaign) bought a company called Hart Intercivic. The voting machines of HI are used in many many cities and states there…and until now tens of thousands votes disappeared… sounds more like hostages USA- citizens in the era from Bush to Romney.

You think Romney has already visited Bohemian Grove to “serve owl” like all the republican presidents before him? Oh, Obama has been there too…

Senador John DeCamp in his book “Franklin Cover Up” publishes a story of Paul Bonacci, who was taken to Bohemian Grove when young. Not any nice story, not at all. Seems to me, that Spanish PSOE and American Republicans have something in common…what doesn´t mean, that other parties wouldn ´t have.

Honestly, I didn't know what "Bohemian Grove"was until you mentioned it. I had to google it and I was surprised. I have a fair knowledge of the US—its history, especially—, but there are so many things... Besides, I am more interested in the past than in the present: I know much better what happened at Shiloh in 1862 than what is taking place nowadays. Mind you, I was a Time, then Newsweek subscriber for years and when I lived in Paris I read the Herald Tribune everyday. Thank you for the info. And no, I have no idea about Romney's visits. Why are you so interested in US politics?

The Spanish PSOE and American Republicans? That's a strange mix, at least concerning politics.

Thank you for the link. I took a look and yes, I know him because of his books, but I didn't know this blog. I'll visit it from time to time. As for the Ides of October, I "celebrate" kalends, nones and ides every month. The Ides of March, May and October are particularly significant. I used the Julian calendar for a while, then I switched to Gregorian. (According to the Julian calendar the Ides of October will take place on the 28th.). As for "Beware the Ides of"... well, its meaning is pretty obvious to many people. Do you know why he chose that name for his blog?

If one reads or watches only mass media, can´ t get any idea what´ s really happening. Even Time and other “serious” newspapers are quite controlled and more tools of kind of propaganda. Their chief editors are invited to the Bilderberg- club to get instructions and ideas what to publish and what to write and how, aggravatingly described.

Reuters and other news agencies are owned by privates- for example by Rotschilds, or someones linked to them, which have their own agenda behind the stage. That´ s why I use to read the alternative newspapers, independent investigators and researchers etc.

There are a lot of rubbish and occult also in a written “official” history what we learn in schools and universities, for example in Russian Revolution and in Soviet Union there are lot more relevant information which is hidden.

I´m interested in USA, because it is quite insane what´ s happening there. They have build numerous concentration camps in different parts of the country, with a big stores of coffins. They have spread chemtrails in a sky for years. According to the people and private investigators who have taken samples to labs, there are toxics like aluminium, barium, virus, bacteria, even dried red cells in the chem. trailed air. People have gotten many kind of symptoms, the number of the cases of Alzheimer have rosen.. Massive chemtrailing is passing in Spain as well, without even one word in newspapers or other media.

Roman history is interesting. There are lot of interesting Roman-time monuments in Spain, like a massive aquaducto in Segovia. I wonder how many slaves were needed to pull the stones up.

"In which country can you name a high speed train link between the capital and a minor city like Felipe Gonzalez did for Sevilla in 1992 when a high speed link would have been more appropriate for say Madrid - Barcelona or Bilbao."

There´s lot of suspicious in Felipe Gonzales and his PSOE- masonic order. One clear example about this was "Alcacér case" in Valencia; high rank masons participated to a masonic rite event, where they sadistically tortured and killed young girls. Traces lead to Felipe Gonzales´s government and to some high officials of Valencia, including police. All these criminals were protected by tribunal, pruves were hidden and destroyed, some innocent put into the prison etc.

The same disgusting garbage dares to talk about " state of justice". Today´s Spain and especially it´s masonic (ritual murderer) political, judicial and economical establisment, which reaches also a royal house, are a big shame for all spanish people.

People don´t seem to understand, that if there is no moral, there´s nothing else either. They should understand it before they look the numbers of their cut salary, or are unemployed without any income living in the street.

Catalonia and Basque country should throw that masonic sickness off their shoulders, as should be done by spanish themselves as well.

There´s not only economical crise, but mental, spiritual, moral and intelectual as well.

Freemasons? You are, of course, pulling my plonker, aren't you?
Ritual murders? Rather like the child- killing Jews, no?
But then, of course, it WAS the Catalans that killed Christ.
You really should get your act together before you post here. Ranting spoils a good start. Felipito built the HST to Sevilla (his home) while Rajoy is now building one to the beach in Galicia (his home), but from here to ritual murders in Alcàsser really is a leap.

Every one has a freedom to think what they want(at least should have).It´s called freedom of the speech. That freedom and the truth has been under the sensorship,that´s why it is very difficult to argue, when only opposite opinions are published. The same trnd has been since 1860, when the Rotschilds bought publishing houses.

The story about Catalans killing Christ is not my invention, I was merely quoting as ridiculous the outpourings of one of your famous Spanish non-nationalists. Juancho Armas Marcelo made this absurd claim in an article in El Mundo. See: http://elmundo.orbyt.es/2012/10/06/tu_mundo/1349559230.html

I fail to understand your reference to your freedom of speech and the apparent implication that I have somehow impinged upon it. I have no recollection of EVER saying that you should not be allowed to express your opinions. I have disputed your opinions and, on occasions ridiculed them, but never denied your right to them.

Regarding the "Universal Jewish Conspiracy", of the three documents you link to, two of them are written by Arnold Reese, a British fascist in the thirties. The Chicago incident was inspired by a hysterical woman who took Reese's work to be the bible and persuaded the Chicago police to follow this line of investigation. All of them have been completely and totally discredited.

I don´t know about Leese´s political backround, but I do know and have read the same history from different sources. Here is one medieval source published by Fordham University. You can´t say about medieval people they were nazis.

Unfortunately these ritual murderings are not past. In 2010, just before Pass Over, in Krasnoyarsk, Siperia, five children were kidnapped, tortured and killed. They blood was dried to the very last drop so, that in the autopsy, the doctors hardly could take hemoglobin. Murders were made by kabbalistic tradition, according to the investigators.

The jewish cuvernour of Krasnoyarsk ORDERED TO STOP THE MURDER INVESTIGATION.

I have just looked through your source articles and find that they all begin with expressions like "myth", "libel" and other similar expressions. William of Norwich was supposedly martyred in 1144 is only mentioned in one source, Thomas of Monmouth, whose intellectual capacity is put into great doubt by his contemporaries. The report in the Catholic Encyclopaedia (1913) uses expressions like: "if it's true"; "the most unfortunate lie"; "hearsay", etc. Let's face it, a very reliable source. Similarly many other cases, whilst often based on an actual murder, maybe even by Jews, any evidence of ritual slaying is very scarce, far between and very unreliable.

The Krasnoyarsk case was in April 2005 (not 2010) and no evidence of Jewish participation was every presented during the investigation which lasted till November 2007. As all the bodies were burnt, gathering of any blood samples would have been very difficult and finding signs of blood rituals extremely problematical.

That´s the oficial truth.
All the bodies were burned to destroy the evidences. There were no blood, because the bodies were dried, just like in the Ukrainian case in 2010, were two girls were ritual murdered in the same kabbalistic way. Autopsy had difficulties to get hemoglobin. In Ukraina there is also a large jewish community, like in Krasnoyark´s case. In both cases, high oficials, which were involved were named by Kremlin, not by elections.

If the corrupt/ masonic court system and police can´t find the guilties, it does not mean they don´t exist, what ever you say.

We speak so blithely or passionately about "nations" (as in relatively cohesive ethnic groups or gens) and "states" (as in polities of ethnic or polyethnic origins), but tend to forget the forest for the trees. States are built as historical exercises in "nation-building" (perhaps originally ethnic gens that imposed on or incorporated other ethnic gens). And history is full of those agglomerations that break down into successor states when they no longer have an abiding interest in political union. So why would modern states be any different? If they can stand alone, want independence, and the state-level polity can provide no compelling reason for continued union, then it shouldn't be a matter of forced continuance, but seperating with the mutually beneficial economic ties maintained.

Catalonia was always a vibrant Meditteranean trading hub that also had the misfortune to be the border zone between what was originally Roman Septimania and Hispania under Visigothic, Frankish, and later successor states (Al Andalus, Aragon, Castile, The dual monarchy). It hasn't really fundamentally changed in modern Spain. Its an enduring nation unit all its own on the northern Iberian Peninsula unlike Navarre. Why shouldn't it be independent? Or Scotland or Quebec for that matter. If the political unions of the UK and Canada can't make it worthwhile for these enduring nations to stay, the neighbors should just accept a new successor state into their midst. Its an ancient and defacto historical process.

Because, for all their sable rattling and posing, the government in Madrid [and one should not forget the Press - El Mundo (especially) - La Razón - La Gaceta - which are a de facto policy making lobby together with la Faes] is afraid to lose. They have absolutely no conception of the idea that somebody, once conquered, would not want to be Spanish, let alone not actually considering themselves to be so.

If they had had a modicum of intelligence they would have called the referendum some 5 years ago when the outcome would almost certainly of fallen on the side of the "noes". The shit that has gone down since 2008 and the obvious total incompetence of the present and previous governments to make any pretence of knowing how to handle the crisis has persuaded many non-Catalan speaking extremenys, andalusos, etc. that it is their schools, hospitals, doctors and social services that are under fire. It is no longer just a question for the Catalans, dropping nuclear bombs kills everybody, even if they're wrapped up in a Spanish flag with the chicken on it.

I also think that in Spain there is a general fear (certainly among the older leaders) that a rift in the state will have violent effects, somewhat akin to the Spanish Civil War. It is important to remember that recent leaders (Gonzalez, Aznar, Zapatero and now Rajoy) no doubt have heard stories from their parents and grandparents about how frightening the Spanish Civil War was. Usually they view politics in some way through this prism--PP tend to have had family members who sided with the Fascists while PSOE sided with the Communists. And nationalists from different regions are a mix.

This fear is understandable, but likely unwarranted. The backdrop of the Spanish Civil War included Hitler, Mussolini and the Soviets--who were all more than willing to take advantage of the problems and disagreements that occured in Spain at the time. Today, such disagreements and "separations" (if it comes to that) would occur within a democratic and stable European Union. A very different context.

If they vote for it, the Catalonians should be free to go their own way. With all the advantages and disadvantages (there are those) that come with that. Clearly we should all be able to live with that scenario.

FC Barcelona is another matter however. If Glasgow Celtic plays in the Scottish league (I'm a Yank, so not sure), then Barca should play in an all Catalonian league. You cannot have your cake and eat it too...

Let's leave aside the details and get down to the real question. Where will Barça play?

Whilst you are correct in saying that Celtic plays in the Scottish League, there are many cases of clubs playing in foreign leagues: Monaco in France, Swansea in England, Andorra in Spain, etc.

Both FCB and the Spanish Football League are private entities which means they can make their own rules and regulations. I would speculate that the SFL would be very reluctant to lose the money making opportunities afforded by keeping Barcelona on field.

Nevertheless (and this is pure speculation), I would make the point that ANY of the European leagues would be more than happy to welcome Barça into their ranks. It may also be the turning point for the creation of a Pan-European league which has been mooted by the big clubs for many years. If this came to pass, Spanish short-sightedness would lead to them losing not only Barça, but Madrid to boot.

"They have absolutely no conception of the idea that somebody, once conquered, would not want to be Spanish, let alone not actually considering themselves to be so."

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And since in 1648 they had to recognize the independence of the Dutch Republic ("a la fuerza ahorcan" and "no hay mal que por bien no venga", they probably thought), after a very bloody 80-year war (the Dutch still remember it, I had Dutch friends who, four centuries later, still disliked Spaniards in general because of this), for several centuries they have been making the same mistake with Neapolitans, Sicilians, Catalans, Portuguese, Argentines, Paraguayans, Chileans, Peruvians, Colombians, Venezuelans, Mexicans, Cubans, Dominicans, Filipinos (the case of José Rizal is particularly sad), Moroccans, Basques, Catalans (again) and I probably forgot some.

Referring to Cuba, in the 1890s the Spanish Premier, Cánovas del Castillo, said: "the Spanish nation is disposed to sacrifice to the last peseta of its treasure and to the last drop of blood of the last Spaniard before consenting that anyone snatch from it even one piece of its territory." Most Cubans just wanted autonomy. The 1895-98 War that ensued was one of the bloodiest, including civilians, concentration camps, etc. (Churchill, an imperialist himself, went there to take a look as observer with the Spanish Army and acquired two long-lasting habits: Havana cigars and siesta.) In 1898 the USA defeated Spain (a real humiliation) and Spain lost not only Cuba, but Puerto Rico (an autonomous overseas province of Spain), the Philippines and Guam. The virtual end of the Spanish empire. In 1899, Spain sold its last islands in the Pacific Ocean to Germany—fourteen years before that, any Spanish people wanted to go to war with Germany because of them. So, what happened to "the last drop of blood of the last Spaniard", etc?

So far as I know, the only country (a part of it) that wanted to be Spanish again after having been independent was the Dominican Republic in 1861. Two years were enough, in 1863 they rebelled again, there was a bloody war and in 1865 the Spanish left for good. "That interlude cost 10,000 Spanish lives" (William C. Atkinson, 'A History of Spain and Portugal', Penguin Books, 1960,; reprinted 1967, page 288). Plus the Dominicans.

The motherland? In some cases, "stepmotherland" would be more accurate. This does not apply only to Spain, of course.

A classic: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana

That´s why the situation is alarming in Europe. EU is very much alike Soviet Union with its bureaucracy and the politicians named by committees and bankers. For example Italian PM Monti was named by bankers, not elected by elections.

There are some plans in EU, presented by George Soros, that EU would collect all the taxes from member countries to the central ministry, and would decide independently of the use of the paid taxes. In the worst case, member countries would receive only a small part of the paid in return. Nobody could control the central government and their "holy" committees.

"Anyone who opposes or deviates from the socialist system will be ostracised. For example, when the Austrian people had the temerity to elect `the wrong sort of Government' (it was considered too nationalistic and right wing by the EU) the EU pronounced the new Government unacceptable. With apparent magnanimity, the EU announced that it would `accept' an Italian President elected by the Italian people. All sorts of tricks are used to isolate and marginalise those who opposed the EU. Those questioning the EU are often portrayed as insular and parochial.

2. Like the USSR, the EU is governed by a group of people who appoint one another, are unaccountable to the public, enjoy generous salaries, massive perks and huge pensions, are pretty much above the law and cannot be sacked. The EU, like any committed socialist government, operates without any real feedback from the people, and certainly without any concern for what the people think. The state must always come first. The only people who benefit (as with all socialist and fascist organisations - and the two are, of course, interchangeable) are those who have put themselves and their friends in charge. The workers never really benefit from socialism. The profits of the hard working, the creative and the thrifty are redistributed to the bureaucracy: the lazy, the unthinking and the wasteful.

The central planners (in the case of the USSR they were in Moscow, in the case of the EU they are in Brussels) insist on making all the judgements and decisions but their lack of experience means that they get everything wrong so there are constant shortages and black markets.

State socialism in the EU has not led to affluence, equality and freedom but, effectively, to a one-party political system. (All three main parties in Britain support the EU and the destruction of Britain). The fascist EU has,inevitably, created a massive bureaucracy, heavy-handed secret police, government control of the media and endless secrecy and lies.

The socialist bureaucracy of the EU is run by people who arrogantly believe that they are the only ones who need to know and that they always know best." Vernon Coleman

I wonder if TE know who Charlemagne was. The Catalans "Comtes" did'nt take the title of Kings at that time beacause the title of King (Emperor)belonged to Charlemagne (European Union "avant la lettre")
Hostage to Catalonia? A majority of Catalans are ready to free the hostage with no ransom.
Don't worry be happy

If I was living in Madrid, as your correspondant, I would be much more worried over the Madrid team and let the Catalans solve their (our)problems Barsa included.
Is a matter of time Mr Lara will move to Mexico the more speaking Spanish country and close to UE full of latinos, being close of the market you would say
In the coming times the EU and the whole world will test again the unability of Spanish leaders (?) to seat and talk with some kind of commitment and to stick to the commitments.
I told TE some more times, let your correspondant travel a bit more if not to Catalonia at least to Jerez, a good cherry wine, close to Jabugo site

The British government just agreed with the SNP (Scottish National Party) that in 2014 there will be a referendum in Scotland to decide whether most Scottish people want to become an independent country or not. The Spanish parliament just refused a Catalan proposal to do the same in Catalonia. 42 for, 276 against.

This is the difference between real freedom and limited freedom, between real democracy for all and limited democracy only for some. No minority can ever be free with majorities like this. According to Artur Mas, Catalonia's PM, if on the November 25th election there is a substantial majority of pro-independence parties, there will be a referendum anyway. A head-on collision?

The British learned the lesson of 1775-83 and showed how well they had learnt it in 1867. The Spanish (the majority of them) apparently didn't learn the lessons of 1810-24, 1895-98 or 1931-39.