Pathfinder Playtest: Return to the Crypt

Friday, March 9, 2018

As part of our announcement for Pathfinder Second Edition, we recorded a game session with the hilarious crew from the Glass Cannon Network. They were kind enough to invite us to their studio in New York, where Erik Mona and I playtested the game with them, converting the first ever Pathfinder Module, Crypt of the Everflame, to the new rules.

Because this was a live session, and because I was converting this adventure "on the fly," I thought it might be useful to all the listeners out there to include a companion blog post that explores some of the spoilers from the recording and corrects a few of the mistakes that we made during play.

Note that the following commentary includes spoilers, so if you have not listened to the podcast, you should probably go and download it from the Glass Cannon Network site right now (or from wherever you subscribe to podcasts). Entries include an approximate time stamp to let you know at what point they happen during the session.

Commentary for Part 1

This commentary refers to the first part of the podcast.

(03:00) I should note that the new version of Pathfinder has been in design now for well over two years. The first playtest of the core mechanics was only a few months into the design process, back in 2016.

(04:00) Obligatory Princess Bride reference.

(04:40) The only preparation for this adventure was to pull together existing monster statistics that correspond to those in the adventure. So, if the adventure featured wolves, the document I had with me had the new wolf stat block. Nothing else was converted—not the traps, random skill challenges, or monsters—without a corresponding converted stat block.

(06:00) This is the actual beginning of the module, starting with player and character introductions and the reveal of the adventure they are about to undertake. For ease of reference, the players and their characters listed here:

(31:40) The first skill check in the game is a Society check. This skill covers knowledge about towns, people, their customs, and their history. The information they are looking for here is relatively common knowledge, and the number they needed to roll (the Difficulty Class) is only a 10. Keith (Troy) fumbled the check and got false information, which was quickly debunked by the others.

(35:30) The party leaves town, entering exploration mode as they venture into the Fangwood.

(39:00) Erik, playing Grellun, just starts reading the spell descriptions from his character folio. Of note, when he reads off acid splash, he mentions "somatic" and "verbal," which does not seem to be much of a spoiler, but those are actually the names of the two actions you must spend to cast the spell!

(39:50) To keep the adventure moving along, in the hope to make this only a few hours long in total, there are a number of minor encounters that get skipped. During the journey, for example, I left out the encounter with the wolves, as it is ultimately unnecessary to the overall plot. Of course, the game still ran extremely long, due in large part to the fact that we were just having too much fun.

(40:10) Here we have the first fight of the game, against a trio of bloodthirsty orcs.

(43:50) That's right, Perception is no longer a skill. Your class gives you an initial proficiency in Perception and might possibly increase it over time.

(47:30) A note on attacking more than once in a round. If he had attacked with all three of his actions, the third attack would have been at an even larger penalty.

(54:10) Most of the maneuvers—grabbing, disarming, tumbling, and tripping—are now associated with the Acrobatics or Athletics skills.

(59:00) As the fight rages on, it quickly becomes apparent to some of the characters that these orcs are not real. Created by illusion magic, they vanish the moment they are struck. These phantom foes are created using a new spell called illusory creature. Created by a hidden wizard, these orcs are bit more difficult to hit than ordinary foes, basing their statistics on the caster. The fact that they are a spell also explains why they have only two actions each turn and hit for so little damage (all of which is halved once the illusion is revealed).

(1:05:30) The developers made me change that back. Neon green dice once again roll just as well as any other color of dice.

(1:07:20) Nimble Dodge has seen a lot of play in office playtests and has saved the lives of countless rogues.

(1:11:40) The characters in this playtest have decent bonuses to attack, but that is of little help when everyone is rolling lower than 10. No amount of redesign can account for fickle dice.

(1:16:00) A note on flanking. I made a small error here. Flanking does not grant you a +2 bonus to hit. Instead, it now makes the target flat-footed to your attacks, causing it to take a –2 penalty to its AC. It's the same result, but the distinction is relevant.

Commentary for Part 2

(02:30) I call that a skill unlock, which is an old term for what we now call a skill feat, which characters get starting at 2nd level.

(05:00) Small mistake here. The three-action casting of heal does indeed target everyone in the group, but it heals only an amount equal to the caster's spellcasting ability modifier at this level (which should be only 4).

(07:10) I probably should have waited until he rolled to announce the result.

(11:10) The Survival skill can be used to navigate in the wild, make a shelter, and find food. In this case, instead of making shelter, the skill was used to simply find a good, defensible place to camp.

(14:10) Remnants of the wolf encounter that I decided to skip to keep things moving.

(19:00) Okay, I admit, my description of the body may have been a bit too detailed, but it is important for the tone shift that happens at this point in the adventure. Things are starting to get serious.

(21:10) This really does begin to show the relationship between proficiencies and crafting that will undoubtedly be the topic of a future blog post. Suffice it to say, the higher your proficiency, the higher the quality of the items that you can craft.

(23:50) For clarity, there is a pair of puncture wounds on the upper torso and another on the lower torso. The punctures are about an inch in diameter, with the pair about 12 inches apart.

(24:20) The only way the illusion is detected is if it is lower-level than the detection spell. If it is of the same level, it is unnoticed.

(36:10) In converting this particular hazard, I treated the various results on the table as the failure, critical failure, success, and critical success results of the new effect. The DC was changed to 15. I modified the damage a little, but the only other significant change was to remove the ability damage from the critical failure effect, replacing it with a condition to represent a sprained ankle.

(46:10) If this were during combat, when time was short, I could have called for an Athletics skill check to move the horse carcass, instead of just looking at their Strength scores and figuring out how much spare bulk they had to move it around.

(51:50) Repeated the mistake here with heal again. It should have been only 4 points restored.

(55:10) The skeletons here are not very powerful undead, but in large numbers like this, they can be deadly. Most problematic, they have resistance 5 to weapon damage, but they still have a weakness to bludgeoning, which can cancel out that protection.

(1:01:20) Skeletons also have resistance 5 against fire damage.

(1:05:25) Claws are agile weapons, which is why the skeletons use them as their second attack, reducing the penalty on the attack roll to –4.

(1:09:00) The Shield Block reaction is very powerful, preventing damage by forcing the foe to beat its way through your protection. It does mean that warriors tend to go through shields with some frequency.

(1:11:00) The shield spell is also a cantrip, meaning that you can cast it as often as you like.

(1:13:30) Explaining the confusion, there was an earlier draft of acid splash that hit multiple targets. That is no longer the case.

(1:16:10) Troy just cannot roll above a 5 in this fight.

(1:19:00) I finally realized that I was doing the heal spell wrong, and then promptly missed the part where the skeletons should get a save against the effect. Fortunately, it didn't matter much; they were all pretty damaged at this point.

(1:21:45) Sweeping the leg is probably an Athletics skill check...

(1:24:50) There are two doors leading out of the room: one to the east, one to the west. The scream came from the west. Somewhere in the dungeon, a tortured soul calls out for help.

That wraps up this look at the first part of the playtest podcast with the Glass Cannon Network. Stop by on Monday when we will be investigating how you level up using the new rules!

It's everyone's "favorite" (at the very least most powerful) skill. That's a big part of why we give it to you for free (the other part is that it interacts with the game world a bit unlike any other skill). That way you can spend all your skill rank increases on other things that are more of a choice.

Honestly, that right there alleviates a lot of concern I was having listening to the pod cast. I was terrified you all went the way for 5ed - not that there's anything wrong with 5ed, it's just, customizing my skills is one of the many things I love about Pathfinder. This was one of the three hills I was ready to die on for 2ed.

It's everyone's "favorite" (at the very least most powerful) skill. That's a big part of why we give it to you for free (the other part is that it interacts with the game world a bit unlike any other skill). That way you can spend all your skill rank increases on other things that are more of a choice.

Speaking of which, how close is my speculation on how skills and proficiencies work in PF2?

It sounded interesting. Are all those terms finalized? The useage of Mode seems like it isn't the best. Things like explorer (exploration?) mode doesn't feel right in a fantasy pen and paper RPG. At least my personal opinion.

It's everyone's "favorite" (at the very least most powerful) skill. That's a big part of why we give it to you for free (the other part is that it interacts with the game world a bit unlike any other skill). That way you can spend all your skill rank increases on other things that are more of a choice.

It always felt to me it never should have been a skill as it was mandatory for you (the player) to meaningfully interact with the game world.

Jason, I just want to know how the new shield system will work. Will be necessary an action each round to get the shield AC bonus? Or just to "ready the shield", once in a battle? Or will be possible to ready it before combat, while delving, for example?

It's everyone's "favorite" (at the very least most powerful) skill. That's a big part of why we give it to you for free (the other part is that it interacts with the game world a bit unlike any other skill). That way you can spend all your skill rank increases on other things that are more of a choice.

It sounded interesting. Are all those terms finalized? The useage of Mode seems like it isn't the best. Things like explorer (exploration?) mode doesn't feel right in a fantasy pen and paper RPG. At least my personal opinion.

It sounded interesting. Are all those terms finalized? The useage of Mode seems like it isn't the best. Things like explorer (exploration?) mode doesn't feel right in a fantasy pen and paper RPG. At least my personal opinion.

So about perception being a thing everyone gets automatically now- I am currently playing a character who is nearsighted, absentminded, and prone to getting so lost in thought she walks into trees (this is me in grad school.)

It's like in Starfinder point buy, You start with all abilities at 10. Can you start with something lower, if you want to roleplay, say, a weakened person with few strength? Yes, you can. Lower STR as much as you want. You don't get points for it, tho. But youc can lower it if you need /want it.

So about perception being a thing everyone gets automatically now- I am currently playing a character who is nearsighted, absentminded, and prone to getting so lost in thought she walks into trees (this is me in grad school.)

So can I no longer play someone who is bad at seeing/noticing things?

You can choose to be "untrained" in it, and you'll only use your stat (or possibly level -1 +stat; but I've not confirmed this rumor).

It's like in Starfinder point buy, You start with all abilities at 10. Can you start with something lower, if you want to roleplay, say, a weakened person with few strength? Yes, you can. Lower STR as much as you want. You don't get points for it, tho. But youc can lower it if you need /want it.

We're also increasing the accessibility to play, for instance, deaf characters. But as with Starfinder, this is a choice you (and possibly your group/GM) make for RP reasons.

It's like in Starfinder point buy, You start with all abilities at 10. Can you start with something lower, if you want to roleplay, say, a weakened person with few strength? Yes, you can. Lower STR as much as you want. You don't get points for it, tho. But youc can lower it if you need /want it.

We're also increasing the accessibility to play, for instance, deaf characters. But as with Starfinder, this is a choice you (and possibly your group/GM) make for RP reasons.

So about perception being a thing everyone gets automatically now- I am currently playing a character who is nearsighted, absentminded, and prone to getting so lost in thought she walks into trees (this is me in grad school.)

So can I no longer play someone who is bad at seeing/noticing things?

and you'll only use your stat (or possibly level -1 +stat; but I've not confirmed this rumor).

So about perception being a thing everyone gets automatically now- I am currently playing a character who is nearsighted, absentminded, and prone to getting so lost in thought she walks into trees (this is me in grad school.)

So can I no longer play someone who is bad at seeing/noticing things?

and you'll only use your stat (or possibly level -1 +stat; but I've not confirmed this rumor).

So about perception being a thing everyone gets automatically now- I am currently playing a character who is nearsighted, absentminded, and prone to getting so lost in thought she walks into trees (this is me in grad school.)

So can I no longer play someone who is bad at seeing/noticing things?

and you'll only use your stat (or possibly level -1 +stat; but I've not confirmed this rumor).

I didn't hear that in the playtest podcast; the closest I heard was the -1 for the wizard "not paying attention" during the first initiative. Not for him being untrained. I thought it was either an on-the-spot ruling or the wizard just having a -1 wisdom modifier.

It seems a bit odd that untrained would give a penality, while trained gives +Level. Just not having +level is enough of a disparity that an extra -1 isn't needed.

So is this bulk system just like Starfinder's? Because I've run into some issues with it making characters feel really weak (in terms of ability to lift/move/carry heavy objects) compared to Pathfinder 1E.

The mention of using athletics to move heavy things is interesting, though.

So is this bulk system just like Starfinder's? Because I've run into some issues with it making characters feel really weak (in terms of ability to lift/move/carry heavy objects) compared to Pathfinder 1E.

The mention of using athletics to move heavy things is interesting, though.

Starfinder uses an offshoot of an earlier version of the bulk system that Logan had been designing for PF2. If I recall, one of your problem cases had to do with a very big character having trouble moving a smaller character around; there's a chart to help with bigger and smaller creatures in the playtest doc (that you can totally probably use in Starfinder for unusual-size creatures and bulk too if it would help!)

So about perception being a thing everyone gets automatically now- I am currently playing a character who is nearsighted, absentminded, and prone to getting so lost in thought she walks into trees (this is me in grad school.)

So can I no longer play someone who is bad at seeing/noticing things?

and you'll only use your stat (or possibly level -1 +stat; but I've not confirmed this rumor).

So is this bulk system just like Starfinder's? Because I've run into some issues with it making characters feel really weak (in terms of ability to lift/move/carry heavy objects) compared to Pathfinder 1E.

The mention of using athletics to move heavy things is interesting, though.

Starfinder uses an offshoot of an earlier version of the bulk system that Logan had been designing for PF2. If I recall, one of your problem cases had to do with a very big character having trouble moving a smaller character around; there's a chart to help with bigger and smaller creatures in the playtest doc (that you can totally probably use in Starfinder for unusual-size creatures and bulk too if it would help!)

So about perception being a thing everyone gets automatically now- I am currently playing a character who is nearsighted, absentminded, and prone to getting so lost in thought she walks into trees (this is me in grad school.)

So can I no longer play someone who is bad at seeing/noticing things?

and you'll only use your stat (or possibly level -1 +stat; but I've not confirmed this rumor).

Wait... no, that's wierdly awkward. I think I figured it out. There was mention of your "spellcasting ability modifier" now being equal to your level plus your stat. I think that's just how stats work now, your ability modifiers now add your level, to everything. That's how you can easily get into a situation where everybody has a chance to succeed at various things. That would also mean that it's a nice, clean progression with skill ranks:

Untrained -2
Trained +0
Expert +1
Master +2
Legend +3

-2 for the standard, generic "circumstance penalty", and a more granular increase because it's more important to track that for increasing levels of proficiency, as opposed to decreasing. And while there's not a huge difference between -2 and +3 (only 5 points), the feeling of truly being an expert, master, or legend could still come from Skill Feats that require certain ranks.

And if your ability modifier just adds your level to it now, that's a built in "+level to damage" for martials, too, which fits with what was done in Starfinder, and is a nice, clean way to allow non-spell attacks to advance in power as you gain levels.

I could be way off, but I think it makes sense, and fits into the clean design that seems to be a major goal of PF2. Am I at least close?

"On the right track" is good enough for me! I'm definitely loving the way things are shaping up so far. Well, most of them... I'll see Vancian magic die one of these days. But until then, everything else I've heard is getting me really exicted to see the full playtest.

It's like in Starfinder point buy, You start with all abilities at 10. Can you start with something lower, if you want to roleplay, say, a weakened person with few strength? Yes, you can. Lower STR as much as you want. You don't get points for it, tho. But youc can lower it if you need /want it.

I really dislike the Starfinder point buy - all is "10 and above".

Trade off is, to me, a big part of the game.
Meaningful choices are a good thing - houseruling isn't the solution.

DON'T SCREW THIS UP!!! I have real concerns that you are going to make this like 5E. The simplifying of things is good, the action economy has promise.

I like the removal of initiative and the use of other skills for initiative but it does seem clunky ie the GM will need to spend time asking everyone what they are doing this will be both good and bad.

I would like something like the crypt released as a proper PF2 module in the playtest so people can give it a proper workout.

It's like in Starfinder point buy, You start with all abilities at 10. Can you start with something lower, if you want to roleplay, say, a weakened person with few strength? Yes, you can. Lower STR as much as you want. You don't get points for it, tho. But youc can lower it if you need /want it.

I really dislike the Starfinder point buy - all is "10 and above".

Trade off is, to me, a big part of the game.
Meaningful choices are a good thing - houseruling isn't the solution.

You can reduce your CHA to 7 if you want to roleplay someone shy or whatever, not as a housrule, but as a rule. It's in the book.

It's just that you can't dump the stat to gain combat benefits. Dumping charisma in PF1e as a fighter is not " a meaningful choice". It would be a meaningful choice if your Save vs Dominate person were based in Charisma. Otherwise it's not meaningful at all, it's just dumping it for pure profit.

While I think the penalty for two-handed attacks carries a real world corollary, applying a penalty to the second attack in a round doesn't make sense to me. If a seasoned adventurer stands in front of a goblin, they should be able to easily perform two stabs with a dagger or swings with a quarterstaff in six seconds without penalty. The third, I can see penalizing that. Just my thoughts.

Yes.
By default, characters "guarding" or "on watch" or however it's called use Perception. You could use Stealth if you are ambushing someone. Survival and Arcana were also mentioned I think (tracking and detecting magic threats, respectively). Probably there are more options (I can see how Bluff could be your Initiative check in some circumstances)