There where a lot of German, and annexed territories, people killed before the concentration camps rolled, hell of a lot of people in the prisons, asylums and hospitals where just progressively snuffed out, there had been street fighting accounting for a lot of political opposition too.

These "lot of German" you are talking about, ended in concentration camps, not in extermination camps. And there is a difference, especially when you consider the raw number of victims. As a matter of fact, the death toll of concentration camps represents only a tiny proportion of the Shoah victims. The scale nor the intentions aren't the same.

Do I need to tell you the difference between Polish camps and the others?
Because frankly, this kind of debate can quickly become nauseating.

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Yes, there was a SPECIFIC anti-semitic obsession within Nazi ideology. Does this really surprize you, or do you need to read more?

"A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

Of course, I meant Auschwitz, Maidanek, Treblinka, Chelmno and Sobibor.

If Lark wants to deliberately make a confusion between Soviet and Polish civil victims of the WW2 and what happened to Ashkenazi Jews, then he would make a major misinterpretation of what the Nazi ideology really stood for.

Remember that there was a marble plaque in front of the Auschwitz camp that pretended that "millions of Poles died here". This was a lie. An anti-semitic lie. And hence, the plaque was removed in 1989.

This is typical of what we often call catholic or communist holocaust denial. They do not deny that many Jews perished thanks to German occupation, but rather, they wanted to suppress the specific anti-semitic factor of Nazi ideology. And hence, they added millions of so-called "civilian Slav victims" to minimize the death toll of the Shoah.
But once again, it was a lie.

The context and the reason why these people died is of utmost importance.

Nazis never made any secret plan to wipe Poles out. As a matter of fact, even if their death toll was heavy, 94% of Christian Poles survived WW2. While in the same time 95% of Jewish Poles were exterminated.

Last edited by Blackmail!; 06-13-2010 at 02:12 PM.

"A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

20-30 million Slavs died in the USSR alone Blackmail!; which amounts to several times the number of Jews killed. Poland lost about 5-6 million. China lost about 10 million. However, I have no interest in engaging in piss contests over body counts.

Jews were not the only ones who suffered during the war, nor does it negate their sufferings to put it alongside the other brutal atrocities of the war(like the rape of Nanking as one example).

Nazis never made any secret plan to wipe Poles out. As a matter of fact, even if their death toll was heavy, 94% of Christian Poles survived WW2. While in the same time 95% of Jewish Poles were exterminated.

Poland lost over a quater of its population, one of the highest propotions of any country during the war -with the possible exception of the USSR.

Poland lost over a quater of its population, one of the highest propotions of any country during the war -with the possible exception of the USSR.

That's because a fifth of its population was Jewish.

Once again, the context matters. You have to wonder WHY those people were killed. You can't say "a dead equals another dead", when for instance one was killed in a gas chamber, and the other when he was fighting against an invading army.
Or at least, doing so would prevent you to understand what Nazism was really about. Is this your goal?

"A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

Once again, the context matters. You have to wonder WHY those people were killed. You can't say "a dead equals another dead", when for instance one was killed in a gas chamber, and the other when he was fighting against an invading army.

Maybe so, but what about the difference between being killed in a gas chamber or being tied up and shot in the ditch? Or being worked/starved to death in a forced labour camp? Or being used for bayonet practice(as the Japanese did against Chinese POWs and civilians)? We could go on and on about this.

Or at least, doing so would prevent you to understand what Nazism was really about.

Yes I'm well aware of much of what Nazism was about. And extermination the Jews was meant to be the first step in a long process of building the thousand year Reich.

Jews are rich. (most of them are)
Jews are rich greedy people that likes to make more money. Like any capitalist.
Whats wrong with that?

Well, Jews--in the US, anyway--tend to be far less likely to embrace capitalism than the gen. pop., as U.S. Jews vote overwhelmingly for left-wing candidates & parties.

I suspect a large portion of what passes for antisemitism is simply envy. Ashkenazi Jews (the vast majority of U.S. Jews) have mean IQs 2/3-1 full standard deviation above the mean (@110-115). That difference means that Ashkenazi Jews are vastly overrepresented among high-g "prestigious" occupations which pay well & allow one to accumulate and exercise political and social capital...

This is typical of what we often call catholic or communist holocaust denial. They do not deny that many Jews perished thanks to German occupation, but rather, they wanted to suppress the specific anti-semitic factor of Nazi ideology.

I've never really understood why holocaust denial is a crime in some European countries.
I mean, people have conspiracy theories about everything. Why single out that particularly idiotic one for special treatment?

Originally Posted by Ivy

Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

I've never really understood why holocaust denial is a crime in some European countries.
I mean, people have conspiracy theories about everything. Why single out that particularly idiotic one for special treatment?

Indeed, and it becomes hypocrisy when flaunting freedom of speech in the face of Muslims who protest against Mohammed cartoons. The ban on holocaust denial should be lifted.