I´m looking for infomation regarding the 44 HENRY CENTERFIRE FLAT ctge. wich was used in a transitional Winchester 1866 before the introduction of the Model of 1873.According to George Madis book "The Winchester Book" page 95, 1020 centerfire conversion 1866 carbines were send to Brazil with ammo produced by Winchester, ammo bears no headstamp.Here in Argentina there are some 44 Henry centerfire cartridges produced by SFM, but no one made by Winchester.Could anyone share some info or pics of the ctge. or the box ?.Thanks in advance.

Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:03 pm

beleg2

Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:02 pmPosts: 84

Re: 44 HENRY CENTERFIRE FLAT INFORMATION

Hi again,Check IAA Journal 464 IIRC.You wil find this draw.

Martin

Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:30 am

DGFM

Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:00 pmPosts: 50

Re: 44 HENRY CENTERFIRE FLAT INFORMATION

Thank you Martin, the drawing seems to be from the S.F.M: cartridges that Horacio Tomas told me a time ago showed up in AACAM from a brazilian guy.Usefull information by the way.GraciasJavier

Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:12 pm

orange

Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:16 pmPosts: 217

Re: 44 HENRY CENTERFIRE FLAT INFORMATION

In "The Winchester Book" it mentions that many of the CF 1866 Winchesters were shipped to Brazil. These were shipped in 1891.The 44 Brazilian Nagant revolver ctg is very similar to the 44 Henry CF. Are they the same ctg? Were the CF M1866s made to use the Brazilian Nagant ctg?

Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:36 pm

beleg2

Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:02 pmPosts: 84

Re: 44 HENRY CENTERFIRE FLAT INFORMATION

Hi Javier,You may like this too (from the same IAA Journal:

Good point Orange, I will search for some info about the .44 Brazilian Nagant.ThanksMartin

It is the same cartridge but it looks like the Nagant was chambered for the Winchester cartridge.

ThanksMartin

Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:17 pm

DGFM

Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:00 pmPosts: 50

Re: 44 HENRY CENTERFIRE FLAT INFORMATION

As always, our cartridge guru Federico Graziano (Fede)kindly give me some information on the background of the .44 center fire cartridge.I do my best to translate it, so forgive my bad English.

The WeaponsBrazil buyed the first Winchester 1866 chambered for the .44 rim fire ctge. In 1872, they were distributed in 1874, in Brazil they are known as “Modelo 1872”.During the third term of Minister Caixas (22/03/1875 to 05/01/1878) an order was issued to transform Spencer, Roberts and Winchester rifles and carbines to centerfire, such modification was made in 1876 by the Arms Factory of Conceicao (Fabrica de Armas da Conceicao).The Winchesters were modified with parts of Winchesters model 1893 (Cal. 44 WCF) previously acquired by Brazil, and they were produced two different models, being named by the Brazilians as “Modelo 1872/76” and “Modelo 1874/76).

The CartridgeThe first cartridges made for this weapons are of the coiled type, and they were manufactured in Brazil in 1876, certain Brazilian papers referred to them as “Boxer”, but they were not made it this way, the cartridges does not work properly either in the carbines or in the Nagant revolvers (they use the same cartridge).There was a variant of the cartridge with copper case, that use a Bachmann type double disc primer, they were crudely made, and maybe they were manufactured in Brazil from rim fire cartridges.The first French cartridges were made by Gaupillat, and they have a reloadable primer, they were pre-1886 (they bears no head stamp or they came with the head stamp Gaupillat Paris).Exist some cartridges made in Austria in 1889 by Keller & Cie. (hdst. 44 89 K&C) but there is no documentation to prove a relation with the Brazilian carbines or withn the Nagant revolvers, no specimens of the were found in Brazil, Federico Graziano think they were a Turkish contract for Winchesters transformed into center fire.

Cartridge use in the Nagant revolversThis cartridge was always meant to be used in carbines and Nagant revolvers (those last ones issued to the Brazilian navy under the name “Modelo 1833 manufactured by Simpson & Co., Suhl, Germany).Only one specimen of this revolver was modified to properly function with the “coiled” ammo, according to some papers, in the test was only used “imported ammo”.Because of the obsolescence of the Winchester ctge., when Eley decided to produce the cartridge, they made it under the name “.44 Nagant”, it does not appeared in the Eley catalog of 1908/09, but yes in the ones of 1910/11 and 1914/15.Also was commercially made in Brazil by FNCM and C.B.C. under the name “.440 Nagant”.The blueprints and notes from the factory denotes that there are no differences between the carbines and revolver loadings since they employ the same powder charge.

About the Winchester “contract”The modification to center fire was a Brazilian initiative in 1876, and had nothing to do with the Winchester company, so the weapons were not transitional to the Winchester model 1873, because in 1876, they already exists.The specific contract of Winchester 1866 carbines for Brazil was from 1892, in Brazil those weapons are known as “Modelo 92”, such denomination cause confusion with the U.S. denomination.The center fire cartridges made by Winchester in 1900 were loaded with black powder, 200 grains lead projectiles, and they are not a center fire version of the rim fire .44 Henry Flat, but a later version of the same cartridge with an improvement of the Stetson Patent of 1871, the case is longer and covers an extra cannelure of the bullet for a better hold. The case is 22.5 mm long, with no head stamp.And there is known an inert specimen with a hollow brass jacket bullet known in the U.S. as “Durable Dummy”.The original Brazilian “Boxer” cartridge was used in the “Herval pistols” designed by General Manuel Luis Osorio (Marquis of Herval) which are shortened Winchesters 1966 in the Conceicao Arms Factory.There are around some pictures of the Gaupillat and S.F.M. cartridge boxes, Federico Graziano said to me that no specimens of the W.R.A.C.O. boxes were seen ever in Argentina or in U.S.A..

Fede thank you so much for share this information !!!

Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:15 pm

beleg2

Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:02 pmPosts: 84

Re: 44 HENRY CENTERFIRE FLAT INFORMATION

Hi,Happy New Year!!!!!!

Thank for sharing so good info!!!Looking for info and it was nextdoor. LOL

Feliz Año Nuevo.Martín

Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:11 pm

PetedeCoux

Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:13 pmPosts: 1595Location: Prescott AZ

Re: 44 HENRY CENTERFIRE FLAT INFORMATION

From left to right, all are unheadstamped & I think USA made.What appears to be a flat copper Orcott primer & a slightly ringed head.Flat copper primer of unknown to me type, slightly ringed read and smaller than normal rim.Reddish brass case & domed copper primer, perhaps/appears U.S.C.Co manufacture?Holed WRACo made dummy with FMJ bulletnot holed case again by WRACo & FMJ bulleted dummyWRACo ball roundHope this is of use. Just quick photos, hope they work.

_________________http://www.pdbullets.com/U.S.A.F. 1962 - 1966IAA member since Jan. 1980, and currently a Director.ECRA member since Jan. 1983N.R.A. Life: April 1966, Endowment: March 1978, Patron: January 2013.Keep your powder dry

Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:22 pm

Vic

Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:35 pmPosts: 267

Re: 44 HENRY CENTERFIRE FLAT INFORMATION

Pete: How did you know the third one was made by USCCo? What are the distinguishing characteristics used on the shell to identify. The primer does not seem to be a farrington type? Vic

Those first three unheadstamped examples look like UMC and USCCo .44 Smith & Wesson American to me. I have seen many examples with a cut-off bullet nose probably made to fit center fire Winchester rifles. Dimensions are pretty similar.

Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:18 am

PetedeCoux

Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:13 pmPosts: 1595Location: Prescott AZ

Re: 44 HENRY CENTERFIRE FLAT INFORMATION

Hi FedeProblem is that the bullets have not been cut off. I too have seen cut-off examples.Pete

_________________http://www.pdbullets.com/U.S.A.F. 1962 - 1966IAA member since Jan. 1980, and currently a Director.ECRA member since Jan. 1983N.R.A. Life: April 1966, Endowment: March 1978, Patron: January 2013.Keep your powder dry

Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:17 pm

BerdanIII

Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:27 pmPosts: 42

Re: 44 HENRY CENTERFIRE FLAT INFORMATION

Great post; I really like the old drawings.

Does anyone know the muzzle velocity of the centerfire cartridge in a rifle? With 15.4 grains (1 gram) of black powder and a 236-grain bullet, it couldn't have been all that speedy. In looking at COTW, the centerfire version would have been roughly the equivalent of the .44 Short rimfire, unless French "0" black powder was extraordinarily good.