These points may be illustrated with some meditation techniques that are currently popular in the West: In a "mental noting" practice, mindfulness is a matter of remembering to keep up the noting, alertness means seeing whatever phenomena arise to be noted, and ardency is a matter of sticking with the noting relentlessly and being ever more quick and precise in one's alertness. In terms of the factors constituting jhāna practice, the mindfulness and alertness here would be related to directed thought, ardency to singleness of preoccupation, while alertness aimed at evaluating the results of the noting — and ardency in keeping the "pressure" of the noting just right — would be related to evaluation. If this practice is then conducted in line with the texts, it should reach a stage where the mind settles down into the singleness of the first jhāna.

"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."

Ven T's approach, as explained in his talks, is not so different from Mahasi, or other approaches. I.e. have a "primary object" (breath, motion of feet, etc) and also pay attention to what comes up.See my comments here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p174339

Like the meditation instructions from any teacher, Ven Mahasi, Ven Thanissaro, the ancient teachers whose experience is preserved in the commentaries, ..., teach "tricks", like noting (or counting breaths in some cases) that are not in the suttas. However, since no-one claims those techniques have any dhammic significance, whether or not they in the suttas is hardly an issue. Noting is simply a way of keeping ones attention focussed clearly on the phenomena that are arising, and cutting down on mental "commentary" that otherwise tends to inflict the beginning meditator.

Yogi: I have been trying to watch the mind, but labellingautomatically comes in because I used labelling for over twomonths before coming here.

SUT: But the mind is labelling!

Yogi: Yes, but I keep using words in my mind like ‘thinking’.....

SUT: How does it feel when you see such labels come up inthe mind?

Yogi: It’s a little bit distracting. I try to push the labellingaside...

SUT: NO, NO, don’t try to push it aside!! Just recognizethat the mind is labelling. You cannot stop a habit abruptly.If you try to stop it forcefully, there will be a conflict.

Yogi: What’s the difference between labelling and justobserving or noticing? In either case you recognize what ishappening. What’s wrong with using words?

SUT: Labelling gives the mind a lot of work to do andtherefore it has less time to investigate. Phenomena arehappening at an incredibly fast rate, and labelling them willtherefore also be late, i.e. you are naming the experiencelong after it happened.

Yogi: So just feel the emotion as opposed to labelling it?

SUT: Yes, by being aware of what is going on continuously.When we observe something, the mind naturally commentson what is going on. There is nothing wrong with that.Mechanically labelling ‘fear, fear, fear’ is very different. Thatis not only tiring and but it also prevents you from seeing thedetails of your experience. It is unnecessary. But you cannotstop the natural comments the mind makes when it recognizessomething.Mechanical labelling weakens both awareness andunderstanding of the mental processes. We don’t really needlabelling to explain anything to ourselves; we only need labelsto explain things to other people. When we use labelling, themind will get involved with all the meanings and associationsconnected to that label. By using labelling we also target aparticular aspect of our experience and therefore cannotsee the whole picture.

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Metta,Retro.

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

retrofuturist wrote:Mechanical labelling weakens both awareness andunderstanding of the mental processes. We don’t really needlabelling to explain anything to ourselves; we only need labelsto explain things to other people. When we use labelling, themind will get involved with all the meanings and associationsconnected to that label. By using labelling we also target aparticular aspect of our experience and therefore cannotsee the whole picture.

Of course, that is not an accurate characterization of the Mahasi method.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

tiltbillings wrote:Of course, that is not an accurate characterization of the Mahasi method.

And as I was trying to get across above, it is unfortunate that it is seen as the defining characteristic of Mahasi's approach. Labelling is just a bit of technique, that has to be dropped at some point.

U Tejaniya does some really interesting ways of approaching things. As with Ajahn Chah, he seems to be trying to really make his students confront what they are doing. Steve Armstrong (who teaches mostly Mahasi method) discusses him in some of his talks. U Tejaniya instructed him to watch and notice if he was using any "meditation technique", and stop doing it. Which would be a really interesting and challenging instruction for an experienced meditator, but presumably not what he would get a beginner to do...

mikenz66 wrote:U Tejaniya instructed him to watch and notice if he was using any "meditation technique", and stop doing it.

That doesn't surprise me at all actually, given that as I was reading the aforementioned transcript I was thinking, "Hmmm... here's a meditation teacher that I think Robert would like".

Anyway, I suppose we'd best get...

Metta,Retro.

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

Well, I guess the topic was Ven Mahasi. I think that fixating on the labelling aspect would be analogous to saying that Thanissaro Bhikkhu's entire approach is based on breath manipulation or Ajahn Chahs' on [insert random Ajahn Chah one-liner here].

I think its in his "Not Self" series of talks someone asks him about the Mahasi method and Thanissaro simply replied that he was not trained in that method, so he can't answer questions about it.

When this concentration is thus developed, thus well developed by you, then wherever you go, you will go in comfort. Wherever you stand, you will stand in comfort. Wherever you sit, you will sit in comfort. Wherever you lie down, you will lie down in comfort.

Has Thanissaro ever commented on Mahasi Sayadaw? He has a few of his writings on his website http://www.accesstoinsight.org. I would find it odd that he would have his publications on his site if he didn't hold the Ven Mahasi in some kind of honorable regard, and respect his teachings in some matter. I could be wrong. Has anybody found anything showing Thanissaro's view on or of Ven Mahasi? I couldn't find any.

"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"

mikenz66 wrote:"Access to Insight" isn't Ven Thanissaro's website, it is John Bullitt's website: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/faq.html#whatisOf course, it does have a lot of Ven Thanissaro's material, but also a lot of BPS and other material.

Interesting thread. Since I learned about Mahasi via Daniel Ingram's book, I thought noting the breath for jhana and the three characteristics for insight was all there is to it. Thanissaro is explicitly critical of that kind of one-size-fits-all approach to meditation, e.g., Enlightenment is not a hot dog.

My sense is that Ajahn Geoff is very much is the sutta jhanas corner, and while I have never read or heard of him commenting on the Burmese methods, I would surmise that he's not likely to be supportive of a method that is not jhana founded, ie founded on samatha and vipassana as core elements of jhana.

I was interested in the topic from the OP and found this: http://youtu.be/m3tUCtwmVGY Ven. Sujato's take on Mahasi method, which he both praises and distinguishes.

With the above, I'm not making any judgments...I'm meditation lazy some weeks, and struggle not only to practice steadily but to understand competently the practice as my teachers recommend. Everyone's mileage will vary with respect to their chosen meditation path.

BuddhaSoup wrote:My sense is that Ajahn Geoff is very much is the sutta jhanas corner, and while I have never read or heard of him commenting on the Burmese methods, I would surmise that he's not likely to be supportive of a method that is not jhana founded, ie founded on samatha and vipassana as core elements of jhana.

BuddhaSoup wrote:My sense is that Ajahn Geoff is very much is the sutta jhanas corner, and while I have never read or heard of him commenting on the Burmese methods, I would surmise that he's not likely to be supportive of a method that is not jhana founded, ie founded on samatha and vipassana as core elements of jhana.

Would it be fair to say that Ajahn Geoff does not bifurcate the elements of jhana, ie by describing a samatha jhana and a vipassana jhana? My understanding of a possible difference here is that Ven. Thanissaro's definition of jhana from the suttas encompasses jhana as being made up of both samatha and vipassana as byproducts or core integrated elements of jhana itself. Without samatha, or with vipassana only, it is not jhana as the suttas describe. I believe the analogy was the wings of a bird; that the bird, to take flight, needs the two wings of samatha and vipassana working together to be sutta jhana. I feel that this is where the Thanissaro definition, and that of the great Burmese teachers, differs.

BuddhaSoup wrote:Would it be fair to say that Ajahn Geoff does not bifurcate the elements of jhana, ie by describing a samatha jhana and a vipassana jhana? My understanding of a possible difference here is that Ven. Thanissaro's definition of jhana from the suttas encompasses jhana as being made up of both samatha and vipassana as byproducts or core integrated elements of jhana itself. Without samatha, or with vipassana only, it is not jhana as the suttas describe. I believe the analogy was the wings of a bird; that the bird, to take flight, needs the two wings of samatha and vipassana working together to be sutta jhana. I feel that this is where the Thanissaro definition, and that of the great Burmese teachers, differs.

Ajahn Sujato has a free book on these two "wings", as you describe it, but he calls them "A Swift Pair of Messengers". I'm still working my way through that book, digging through all of his very heavy references to the Sutta Pitaka.

BuddhaSoup wrote:Would it be fair to say that Ajahn Geoff does not bifurcate the elements of jhana, ie by describing a samatha jhana and a vipassana jhana? My understanding of a possible difference here is that Ven. Thanissaro's definition of jhana from the suttas encompasses jhana as being made up of both samatha and vipassana as byproducts or core integrated elements of jhana itself. Without samatha, or with vipassana only, it is not jhana as the suttas describe. I believe the analogy was the wings of a bird; that the bird, to take flight, needs the two wings of samatha and vipassana working together to be sutta jhana. I feel that this is where the Thanissaro definition, and that of the great Burmese teachers, differs.

Huh? Vipassana jhana can easily being seen as being quite congruent with sutta jhana. Vipassana jhana is not a matter of theoretical thought experiments. It is the result of actual practice. But one has to keep in mind that context that is behind this discussion, and that is the hardcore jhana of the Visuddhimagga.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.