On Tuesday, 9 October 2012 at 14:03:36 UTC, monarch_dodra wrote:
> I tend to disagree with your examples, because, you are mixing
> the notion of run-time failure with logic error.
>
> For example: "new" New can fail. And you don't know unless you
> try.
> But new will throw an exception to tell you it failed..
>
> An appender, as you say, is finite in memory, and will end up
> throwing an exception, yes. You also have a chance to try to
> catch it and react.
>
> Over-putting into a finite slice, on the other end, will
> *assert*. Game over. It is a catch 22: You can't know unless
> you try, you crash if you do.
Actually, OutOfMemoryError and AssertError are the same class of
Throwable - namely Error. They're both non-recoverable exceptions.
I agree that AssertError is not an appropriate type to throw if
an OutputRange is full, though.

On Tue, 09 Oct 2012 09:39:32 -0400, monarch_dodra <monarchdodra@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Tuesday, 9 October 2012 at 13:22:28 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
>> [SNIP]
>
> I tend to disagree with your examples, because, you are mixing the
> notion of run-time failure with logic error.
They are one and the same.
Putting into a file that runs out of disk space, and putting into an array
that runs out of memory.
Take the viewpoint of std.algorithm.copy. It's been asked to copy from A
to B, and B cannot accept it. What does it do? Saying it has to just
return success doesn't make any sense.
> For example: "new" New can fail. And you don't know unless you try.
> But new will throw an exception to tell you it failed..
>
> An appender, as you say, is finite in memory, and will end up throwing
> an exception, yes. You also have a chance to try to catch it and react.
No, these are Errors, not (supposed to be) catchable.
> Over-putting into a finite slice, on the other end, will *assert*. Game
> over. It is a catch 22: You can't know unless you try, you crash if you
> do.
I agree, this could have a better interface. However, I think in terms of
what to do (assuming we add some way of checking for fullness), if someone
calls put on an output buffer and that range is not able to handle it, it
should be an Error/assert as it is now, just like calling front on an
empty array is an assert.
>
>> I'm not against defining a standard way to say "I'm full", but
>> proposing it *can't* say that is not the solution. Clearly, we could
>> do better in defining a standard way to test for fullness (full
>> property akin to empty?). Even so, putting into a non-full range could
>> generate an error.
>
> Hum... I'm just kind of wondering here: Couldn't we simply have put
> throw an actual exception? Something along the lines of
> "OutputRangFullException"? That would be a pretty good compromise.
I think it would work, but I think we still need a way to check for
fullness.
Here is what I propose:
OutputRange is defined as an entity that consumes data. If you put data
into an OutputRange that cannot accept the data, the range has the option
of asserting or throwing an exception.
TerminatingOutputRange is an extension of OutputRange, but defines bool
@property full(). R.full returns true if it cannot accept any new data.
It should assert if you try to put data into a full
TerminatingOutputRange. In other words the following sequence should
always assert or not compile:
static assert(isTerminatingOutputRange!(typeof(r)));
assert(r.full);
r.put(x);
If you try and put into a TerminatingOutputRange that is *not* full,
behavior reverts to OutputRange (can either assert or throw an exception),
depending on the assumptions that can be made for that condition.
>>> However, I really don't like having a range tell me "yeah, I'm an
>>> Output Range", just to choke on the first call to put.
>>
>> What about an input range that is immediately empty? These are corner
>> cases, but certainly valid.
>
> Wouldn't "empty" simply answer "true" before even starting? At least it
> is being honest.
Right, but you seem to be saying the condition that an OutputRange might
throw on the first call to put is an invalid reaction. I don't think it
is any less valid than throwing on the first call to front on an empty
range.
-Steve

On Tuesday, 9 October 2012 at 15:27:44 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer
wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Oct 2012 09:39:32 -0400, monarch_dodra
> <monarchdodra@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, 9 October 2012 at 13:22:28 UTC, Steven
>> Schveighoffer wrote:
>>> [SNIP]
>>
>> I tend to disagree with your examples, because, you are mixing
>> the notion of run-time failure with logic error.
>
> They are one and the same.
>
> Putting into a file that runs out of disk space, and putting
> into an array that runs out of memory.
I'm not convinced.
A file running out of memory is an implementation defined
limitation that is out of the field of control of the developer,
just as much as an OutOfMemoryError.
An array that runs out of memory is predictable logic error. The
problem is that we aren't giving the developer the tools required
to predict it.
> Take the viewpoint of std.algorithm.copy. It's been asked to
> copy from A to B, and B cannot accept it. What does it do?
> Saying it has to just return success doesn't make any sense.
I never said copy should return success.
>> For example: "new" New can fail. And you don't know unless you
>> try.
>> But new will throw an exception to tell you it failed..
>>
>> An appender, as you say, is finite in memory, and will end up
>> throwing an exception, yes. You also have a chance to try to
>> catch it and react.
>
> No, these are Errors, not (supposed to be) catchable.
Hum. Yes, but the point (IMO) remains that the error is not
thrown by Appender itself, but by the underlying implementation,
and by no fault of appender itself, nor the caller.
I mean, it is not the *appender* that is full. You are just
running into out of memory on your machine...
Anyways, I don't think there is anything to be gained disagreeing
on this point any longer, as it would seem the solution is going
towards other paths anyways.
>> Over-putting into a finite slice, on the other end, will
>> *assert*. Game over. It is a catch 22: You can't know unless
>> you try, you crash if you do.
>
> I agree, this could have a better interface. However, I think
> in terms of what to do (assuming we add some way of checking
> for fullness), if someone calls put on an output buffer and
> that range is not able to handle it, it should be an
> Error/assert as it is now, just like calling front on an empty
> array is an assert.
>
>>
>>> I'm not against defining a standard way to say "I'm full",
>>> but proposing it *can't* say that is not the solution.
>>> Clearly, we could do better in defining a standard way to
>>> test for fullness (full property akin to empty?). Even so,
>>> putting into a non-full range could generate an error.
>>
>> Hum... I'm just kind of wondering here: Couldn't we simply
>> have put throw an actual exception? Something along the lines
>> of "OutputRangFullException"? That would be a pretty good
>> compromise.
>
> I think it would work, but I think we still need a way to check
> for fullness.
>
> Here is what I propose:
>
> OutputRange is defined as an entity that consumes data. If
> you put data into an OutputRange that cannot accept the data,
> the range has the option of asserting or throwing an exception.
>
> TerminatingOutputRange is an extension of OutputRange, but
> defines bool @property full(). R.full returns true if it
> cannot accept any new data. It should assert if you try to put
> data into a full TerminatingOutputRange. In other words the
> following sequence should always assert or not compile:
>
> static assert(isTerminatingOutputRange!(typeof(r)));
> assert(r.full);
> r.put(x);
>
> If you try and put into a TerminatingOutputRange that is *not*
> full, behavior reverts to OutputRange (can either assert or
> throw an exception), depending on the assumptions that can be
> made for that condition.
I'll have to try to sleep on this before making any
judgements/thoughts/comments.
But off the top of my head, you'll still run into the same
problem of an output range becoming full *during* a put: if r
accepts a T, then it accepts an input range of T.
>>>> However, I really don't like having a range tell me "yeah,
>>>> I'm an Output Range", just to choke on the first call to put.
>>>
>>> What about an input range that is immediately empty? These
>>> are corner cases, but certainly valid.
>>
>> Wouldn't "empty" simply answer "true" before even starting? At
>> least it is being honest.
>
> Right, but you seem to be saying the condition that an
> OutputRange might throw on the first call to put is an invalid
> reaction. I don't think it is any less valid than throwing on
> the first call to front on an empty range.
>
> -Steve
No, my problem is not one of "first call", it is one of answering
not empty, but choking on a put(element) afterwards.
*Me "outputRange, are you an output range or int[] ?"
*outputRange: "Yes"
*Me: "outputRange are you empty?"
*outputRange: "No"
*Me: "then put this int[] _element_"
*outputRange: "OutOfRangeError"
*Me: "WTF?"
To me, this is not acceptable behavior.
----
Another solution could be something closer to my very first
proposal of tightening the valid *ElementTypes* that are
compatible with an output range (but not put itself).
For example, a delegate D that accepts a T (like a char) would be
defined as return true to:
isOutputRange!(D, T) //true
isOutputRange!(D, T[]) //true
isOutputRange!(D, T[][]) //true
An actual inputRange!T (IR) (such as int[]) that defines empty,
though, would only be an output range for EXACTLY T:
isOutputRange!(IR, T) //true
isOutputRange!(IR, T[]) //false
isOutputRange!(IR, T[][]) //false
This would nip the problem in the bud, as empty would *really*
mean empty. If R says he's an outputRange of T, but not of T[],
then don't trust it to not overflow if you feed it a T[]...
As for the delegates, well they don't have empty anyways, so you
can go ahead and attempt to cram anything you want.
Unlike my very first proposal way back when, put would still work
to copy several items at once, but at the caller's responsibility.

On Tue, 09 Oct 2012 11:52:29 -0400, monarch_dodra <monarchdodra@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Tuesday, 9 October 2012 at 15:27:44 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
>> On Tue, 09 Oct 2012 09:39:32 -0400, monarch_dodra
>> <monarchdodra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, 9 October 2012 at 13:22:28 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
>>>> [SNIP]
>>>
>>> I tend to disagree with your examples, because, you are mixing the
>>> notion of run-time failure with logic error.
>>
>> They are one and the same.
>>
>> Putting into a file that runs out of disk space, and putting into an
>> array that runs out of memory.
>
> I'm not convinced.
>
> A file running out of memory is an implementation defined limitation
> that is out of the field of control of the developer, just as much as an
> OutOfMemoryError.
>
> An array that runs out of memory is predictable logic error. The problem
> is that we aren't giving the developer the tools required to predict it.
predictable logic errors == assert
>>>> I'm not against defining a standard way to say "I'm full", but
>>>> proposing it *can't* say that is not the solution. Clearly, we could
>>>> do better in defining a standard way to test for fullness (full
>>>> property akin to empty?). Even so, putting into a non-full range
>>>> could generate an error.
>>>
>>> Hum... I'm just kind of wondering here: Couldn't we simply have put
>>> throw an actual exception? Something along the lines of
>>> "OutputRangFullException"? That would be a pretty good compromise.
>>
>> I think it would work, but I think we still need a way to check for
>> fullness.
>>
>> Here is what I propose:
>>
>> OutputRange is defined as an entity that consumes data. If you put
>> data into an OutputRange that cannot accept the data, the range has the
>> option of asserting or throwing an exception.
>>
>> TerminatingOutputRange is an extension of OutputRange, but defines bool
>> @property full(). R.full returns true if it cannot accept any new
>> data. It should assert if you try to put data into a full
>> TerminatingOutputRange. In other words the following sequence should
>> always assert or not compile:
>>
>> static assert(isTerminatingOutputRange!(typeof(r)));
>> assert(r.full);
>> r.put(x);
>>
>> If you try and put into a TerminatingOutputRange that is *not* full,
>> behavior reverts to OutputRange (can either assert or throw an
>> exception), depending on the assumptions that can be made for that
>> condition.
>
> I'll have to try to sleep on this before making any
> judgements/thoughts/comments.
>
> But off the top of my head, you'll still run into the same problem of an
> output range becoming full *during* a put: if r accepts a T, then it
> accepts an input range of T.
OK, I see your point, you need to know "can I put x into this output
range" instead of "can I put an element into this output range".
We are delving at this point into streams, and streams have a much better
interface for that:
int write(x)
where the int returned is how much data from x was actually written.
As put doesn't return anything, there is no way to tell what was written.
I don't know if it can be changed at this point.
> No, my problem is not one of "first call", it is one of answering not
> empty, but choking on a put(element) afterwards.
>
> *Me "outputRange, are you an output range or int[] ?"
> *outputRange: "Yes"
> *Me: "outputRange are you empty?"
> *outputRange: "No"
> *Me: "then put this int[] _element_"
> *outputRange: "OutOfRangeError"
> *Me: "WTF?"
>
> To me, this is not acceptable behavior.
Neither is requiring output ranges to be infinite. There are definitely
finite output ranges.
Note that you are not asking the right question "are you empty?" This is
an input range property, not an output range property. There is no
equivalent output range property.
And as you point out, this question necessarily has to be worded in a way
that is clear. "are you full?" would be a property that says "there is
enough space left for at least one more element", and "can you accept x
elements" would be an entirely different question.
But even if we *had* the right functions to ask those questions, finding
the answer may not be feasible (e.g. no length property).
I would say we need a new function, like tryPut or something, that returns
the number of elements actually put.
>
> Another solution could be something closer to my very first proposal of
> tightening the valid *ElementTypes* that are compatible with an output
> range (but not put itself).
>
> For example, a delegate D that accepts a T (like a char) would be
> defined as return true to:
> isOutputRange!(D, T) //true
> isOutputRange!(D, T[]) //true
> isOutputRange!(D, T[][]) //true
>
> An actual inputRange!T (IR) (such as int[]) that defines empty, though,
> would only be an output range for EXACTLY T:
> isOutputRange!(IR, T) //true
> isOutputRange!(IR, T[]) //false
> isOutputRange!(IR, T[][]) //false
>
> This would nip the problem in the bud, as empty would *really* mean
> empty. If R says he's an outputRange of T, but not of T[], then don't
> trust it to not overflow if you feed it a T[]...
No, not really. The only correct (and efficient) way to fix this is to
support partial writes.
>
> As for the delegates, well they don't have empty anyways, so you can go
> ahead and attempt to cram anything you want.
Then you have accomplished nothing.
void foo( int[] x)
{
int[5] y;
uint filled = 0;
put((int n) { y[filled++] = n; }, x);
}
-Steve

On 10/9/12 11:52 AM, monarch_dodra wrote:
> On Tuesday, 9 October 2012 at 15:27:44 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
>> On Tue, 09 Oct 2012 09:39:32 -0400, monarch_dodra
>> <monarchdodra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, 9 October 2012 at 13:22:28 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
>>>> [SNIP]
>>>
>>> I tend to disagree with your examples, because, you are mixing the
>>> notion of run-time failure with logic error.
>>
>> They are one and the same.
>>
>> Putting into a file that runs out of disk space, and putting into an
>> array that runs out of memory.
>
> I'm not convinced.
>
> A file running out of memory is an implementation defined limitation
> that is out of the field of control of the developer, just as much as an
> OutOfMemoryError.
>
> An array that runs out of memory is predictable logic error. The problem
> is that we aren't giving the developer the tools required to predict it.
I agree with this distinction. In brief a disk getting full is an
exceptional occurrence whereas a non-appendable structure running out of
room is a different category of error.
Andrei

On Tue, 09 Oct 2012 14:18:30 -0400, Andrei Alexandrescu
<SeeWebsiteForEmail@erdani.org> wrote:
> On 10/9/12 11:52 AM, monarch_dodra wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 9 October 2012 at 15:27:44 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
>>> On Tue, 09 Oct 2012 09:39:32 -0400, monarch_dodra
>>> <monarchdodra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, 9 October 2012 at 13:22:28 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> [SNIP]
>>>>
>>>> I tend to disagree with your examples, because, you are mixing the
>>>> notion of run-time failure with logic error.
>>>
>>> They are one and the same.
>>>
>>> Putting into a file that runs out of disk space, and putting into an
>>> array that runs out of memory.
>>
>> I'm not convinced.
>>
>> A file running out of memory is an implementation defined limitation
>> that is out of the field of control of the developer, just as much as an
>> OutOfMemoryError.
>>
>> An array that runs out of memory is predictable logic error. The problem
>> is that we aren't giving the developer the tools required to predict it.
>
> I agree with this distinction. In brief a disk getting full is an
> exceptional occurrence whereas a non-appendable structure running out of
> room is a different category of error.
I also agree that running out of disk space or general heap memory is a
different high-level error.
But it depends on the level you are looking from.
From the low level, it's "I've been asked to put A into B, and B is saying
no". From that point of view, it doesn't seem any different to me, and I
don't know that 'put' really is the one to decide that. Each range itself
must decide whether this is absolutely a logic error or a runtime error.
Two different things to think about:
1) you can check how much disk space is left just like you can check how
much space is left in your array.
2) The determination of how much space is available in a range could be
unavailable at runtime, even for memory-based ranges.
I agree that if you try to copy an input range into a smaller *array*, we
should handle that as a logic error. But as a range in general, I don't
think it can be handled without a runtime error. In other words, the
range should decide what kind of error it is, not the definition of
OutputRange.
-Steve