1 i.f" /' LUM 211 A
B: .C --Novmber -?, 197'. ImLew Barton recording for the
University of Florida's American Indian Oral History Program. This
afternoon we are favored to be at the American Indian Study Center
here on Broadway Street in Baltimore, Maryland, and with me is the
heart of the community Reverend James M. Dial. Reverend Dial, meeting
you is a great privilege. X heard a lot about you and yov't very
kind to consent to give us this interview. Wa ,like to talk to you
about all sorts of things because we know that their nobody closer
to the people than the minister of a community. But first like
to ask you about yourself, anything y eu like to tell us in a
biographical nature like er- your name, the nameof your children
and so forth and their ages and so on and let us get to know you as
well as we ca-those of us who are not fortunate enough to know you
as well as others.
D: Well, my name is James M. Dial. Im! rom North Carolina originally.
I was born and raised in North Carolina.
B: Are you a Lumbee?
D: a Lumbee Indian.
B: mEfr.
D: My father, Roy Dia.land I married my wife vse named Wilma Dial and
we have two children, /boy sixteen years old-a daughter twenty years
old.
B: What are their names?
D: Her name is Susie, the daughter, .tm.ngAnnie Sue Dialsand the boy is
-'O- .'. Lee Dial.
B: tw*aias tt^
D: And my age is forty years old. I was forty years- old the tenth of

2 LUM 211 A
October.
B: tIiiSh. Th4) good. Yonrenot going to be like Jack Benny who
stayed thirty-nine
c,< happy
D: I hae-to get away from thirty-nine.
B: Well, as somebody else said, life begins at forty and so I guess it
does. How long have you been in Baltimore?
D: Twenty years.
B: Twenty-years.
: .. Twentyy.ears.
B: You and your family?
D: My wife has been here about twenty--thrge years.
B: I see.
D: I met her when I came to Baltomore and the was here about three years
before I came here.
B: So y 'Zv had the experience of living in a rural community and also in
a city of this size. This is a great city. IQ'msure there must be
great differences in living in the two places.
D: Ye4, maybe if you.1G allow me We ll-sort of go back a little bit ea
my ..
B: sure.
D: .._..-.yot-kcnmr, arrival here. I came here looking for workft rC aD G S
Iot much *ork in North Carolina when I left there I came here twenty
yeaB-ago and at that time there wasnt, jia .cn:, no, many, or near as
many Indian people here as tNey are now. And I came here and landed
a job as a painter. We called it steeplejack painting and I did that
for about eighteen years. Awad^ ye called it here, more or less vwe
_-_;__,_ when you talk about a painter, ya steel painter or

3 LUM 211 A
a steeplejack painter, theraesgood money in it. I was a supervisor
for eleven years with Maryland Painting Company and I quit that job
and came to the American Indian Study Center in 1971 to work as
alcoholism counselor here, and Itp.astor of the West CrossVw Sic-I
Baptist Church.
B: -4TT-lsr L'~
B Fow--do-ou-spel- the name of that'church? '"VT'-d t want-anybody to
,not know how peeled.
D: That West-Cross--Street. i- -Cross Street. That's the name of a street
in South Baltimore and we named the church after this street.
B: -Yess
D: West-Cross-Street Bap ist Church.
B: ihmsti And do most of the Lumbees here who go t8 church come to your
churchjdon't they?
D: Yes.
B: U=:sma. And do you find that pilum,, spiritual problems are perhaps
different here than they would be at home?
D: I think the problem pretty much is the dame here. From
my experienced, last'week was in a revival at Mount Elan Baptist Church,
I preached on Friday night.
B: Tho- S f a, --
. /I(;> .;
D: In North Carolina i-ii i. Tt ats n--nd County,
B: Polk County, tha s)adjoining Robeson County,
D: Joining RoBeson County' ,u arw
B: iSCthi.'
D: And I spoke there Friday night and I find in my experience in the
churches there and the church we have here pretty muck, h= tnow, similar.

4 LUM 211 A
D: And that would be spiritually and *y.lna,, otherwise. Emew
it seems to me as you deal with Indian People, Lumbees in particular,
ttaz th 4y the same here as they are in North Xrolina, Robeson
County.
B: We have a tendency reBS t e clannish don't we? I mean, We we like to
stay together as much as possible
D: Thate right.
B: Do you know why that is? Is it because we love each other? Or is therc
a feeling of protection with- the rest of the group or what?
D: Well I believe i ea feeling of protection, safety. We feel safe among
one another. I know in my experience in travelling over the country ovr
the years that I z.i 'T;4w painted, I went--~o.Tnatowv to New York, New
Jersey, Tennessee, West Virginia, yu-a all over the East Coast
painting, and everywhere I met a Lumbee Indian I always felt good, I
always felt
B: They were always were happy too, to meet yourweren't they?
D: Right, th s right. 'YSri
B: __==== The 4 nothing like being a Lumbee, is there?
D: Tht' t eight. Im proud of it. I certainly, it' been a great
experience n=beisgr to me, in Being a Lumbee. ItN not been all
the time, 3 n easy thing I ddt suppose3,lwould say, but the
more I find that we try toa;^EwrSwk_,keep people knowing and under-
standing that we are LumBees and we are proud to be Lumbees I find it
can become more of a reality and more f something we ca be proud of.
B: Tha3) great. You know, 4yfa, maybe the reason we are favored by
other people as much as we arej-the thought just occurred to me and
I want to put it in question form. Is it because we dt force

5 LUM 211 A
ourselves on other people? This seems to be characteristic o us,
but do you think this is true?
D: I think thaes ery much true. In my experience here =ga a
back when I used to go to bars and to any kind of event that we might
be having, yo always find the Indians together. When you go in
the bar, you'll find the Indians theytre sitting together and "mt-
=,eSS' they just stay right together and)as you said; they doj
try togEgqpMjgM push theirselves off on people, and I believe this
STE=SSSW has been a advantage to us~
B: __- __ -- You mentioned working with alcoholics, do you
have a chapter of Alcoholics Anonymous in operation in this community
anywhere?
B: 2aVr a similar program?
D: Well, yes- we have the Johns Hopkin Hospital up here. es ana
Ch b' -'- ; Home Hospital which is right up the street here. They
have ._aiknry-an AA meeting there once a week that they work with
the alcoholics there. And there'si quite a few programs, r 4mr.
around but this one right in the heart of the Indian people here is
the only one that prettyi-rmuch works right with the,-- eeiEjLw, Lumbee
Indians.
d.o ro-v.
B: Well, this is an advantage we die-F have back home, isn't it?
D: I think so.
B: Do you think, do you think alcoholism is a very severe problem among
our people?
D: o k en iit _L_
B: You know, when Columbus came here there wan) any alcohol here, it

6 LUM 211 A
was brought and -iats given to us, but we seem to have become very
good students or whatever. We didn'seem to mind. Our people it
eeems always have-ibo to have been affected one way or another
and ure r,- interpretation. / we seem to. What do
you think it is? Are we more susceptible to alcohol than other people?
D: Well, they could be ,ZZa MiMy several different reasons, but one
reason I feelAI could be wrong, this is just a personal feeling that
oC
I have and maybe I have decided it because katkvAw9 the experience
tthat I had hereVy-tI find trfltoh-b ee s O the flow
of alcohol,. much more plentiful and like here you walk ..
one block and yia t h they might be three or four taverns in that
one block and many of the people that come from North Carolina that
maybe might would have been addicted to alcohol but due to the distance
between where he would have to go to get alcohol and then come here and
to find it so plentiful. I think maybe that might~tffgt be a
little bit or maybe a whole lot of the problem.
B: WtBeS 'v l-, t
D: Not being able to resist, you know, the opportunity or temptation that
comes to him with it being so plentiful.
B: Right. I believe you mentioned there might be other reasons. Can you
think of any other reasons?
D: ~ this is just a conclusion, this one particular statement that I
just made here and I feel spwe ascw, for myself and other than that, I
dct think that the alcohol has an effect on the Indian people any
more than they do on the Whites and the lacks or any other nationality
of people because of the us being a minority-+the minority of the
minorities I guess dysay..
B: Right, that's"a good expression.

7 LUM 211 A
D: Ystao ihe therts much working here, I have much more alcoholics
coming here to me that are not Indian people than I do Indian people.
B: Is that right?
D: Yes. And I find, I think the population, you know, when you look
at the population of the Whites and the Blacks and other, you know,
nationalities of people, then look at the population of the Indian-
people, I woul ntsay it was rr-JBikaw, a great number difference
in the alcoholics Qc Ir-: l jr-::' !,
B: In other words, i 'san all-over problem, isn't it?
D: Tha('s for sure, yes.
B: How about the effects of alcohol. _. on the individual -tes ss ,
once he'flaken intsma. Sc r'ACt-t Do you think that his behavior
r^^c^-'.n ,. ,
is more rTS affected ''- or is it about
the same?
D: I think about the same. I do j think tha t the any difference
one
_ Usually, an 'Indiana not iit3g to A get
emotional or upset without somebody doing something .o'.him and e
found usually that where he goes into a place and e^ sort of looked
on as a bad man before he gets there and usually somebody does some-
thing to upset him or say something to upset him. I feel that that N
yui-keew, agitates the situation. It makes him,-you know, look like
a mean person, a bad person but I don think it-!'.s..hat case where he's
not bothered any more than it would be with any other nationality of
people.
B: Do you think our people are sensitive in certain areas and this might
k
be a contributing factor? You know, certain things we might be
sensitive about) aic i\ l -l- r C;'- Li h)r- l- r..e rCl.
i -oc I, _~'..L)t'
\(7nl O'f-V'>' 1q,>t* k} o'-' ffe ( .<1 t) i
l^'. SorY an I, 9 cbIn ok,,.* -'\ rr c, iC i--' fcrc \\\'
iy u ''.' o f b ''

8 LUM 211 A
D: 1-tMTali, I think so. I think that _sensitive--
most of them. And sort of, it seems to me like he waiting for, or
C'so ort of ready for some remark and then that might set him off.
B: Sort of on the defensive.
D: Right, yes. I find that to be the case.
B: Well th 4t good. I understand that Alcoholics Anonymous has been
remarkably successful in the field of alcoholism and I imagine these
facilities you mentioned aas= =tay take advantage of whatever they can
use best, whichever works best for them.
D: Yes, that's right.
B: You try to reach hr :;m N-o-lYl>. 2i1 fr /
D: Righ nB--4 iWe-4eaw we have some we ve been L. thinkvvery fortunate
to have the opportunity to work through the American Indian Study Center
., -1.4
and the church. We have, I call that a double shot trofa. because if
;/I'm)working with him here it's)a good chance that I can persuade him into
church and then he can get spiritual help and as much &syeas-
the moral support that we can giver ~,w-Fw, here. And physical support
and so on)I find that thry-need thereis need among our people they .-
really have to have spiritual guidance it--seea _J t-ae.
B: Yes, f'm)ure this is important. In fact, el~e heard of, or they say,
people %.'ve)talked with _~- that spiritual help is the only
help thao really any goods o- 4- \ \ \I that medical
help didnt)seem to be as effective.
D: I find that to be thetase with the ones that I could name out here that
was hard-core alcoholics that have been able to go and get involved
wsa= the church to seek the spiritual help that a man needs when he has
become addicted to alcohol to the point where ,_r-w w, he might not

9 LUM 211 A
be able to get off of it himself and he'll go to some institution and
get dried out and see a doctor and get the kind of ^ EySsr-[
physical help that he needs there but then, if he really wants to
stay off of it, it he usually turns to the spiritual .tl!B
* _ia--a help.
B: How about drugs? Is that much of a problem? Like marijuana or
anything like that. Have you found that much of a problem in this
part of the city?
D: It has been, but I nt believe at this point (ts bad now as
it was. I's some problem, but t'Os'not as bad among our kids, our
Lumbee kids.
B: Until just a few years ago, of course, our Lumbee people di 't know
anything about grass. I smure somebody hearing this might disagree
with me, but this was actually a fact that...... In all my life that
I lived in Robeson County North Carolina)I only heard of grass recently.
~within C ; Ria -7eMyo The only thing I knew about it was what I read
in the newspapers and that was always something very distant. But
with the cgiiia 4 increase in population at PSU, Pembroke State
University, ;"I'Aot blaming anybodyI meant th --Y
knrar; happened. We seem to have remained apart f-1iPB he* from it for
a long time, but now'it's)reached...
D: Well, *yuhver rt= you have a lot of kids going to the
university now who maybe came from the city and it seems to me that
the kids who live in the city always Sa sirI think apt to get
involved in that or to understand more about things like drugs, even
crime in any kind of way. It seems like they are trained better here
or something or other in the o2j n big city.
B: Right. That seems to be the pattern.

10 LUM 211 A
5 b'-< d. q"^^ .*' C -
D: YeaS, and I think maybe lfJEs t -\-.e school ?- a
college, 3ayeI~4p having a lot of out of state kids coming from
different places going to school there might have helped the
Lumbee kids to _===ew>w sort of get educated in this line of
thing. -;huts3a--* Rhatapeas- one thing 'd like to add to that,
I find that parents of the Indian kids here and I suppose it might
be =sE all over, but they really teach hard against--even
though they might have a problem in the family, yshNmEa with
listi alcoholics, they still try to teach the kids against the
dope. Because it seems like we look at dope as being much worse
than alcohol, of course..
B: SUuauini, much more harmful.
D: Yeah, I think either one of it, you know, ts=-, can be fatal. But
dope, the grass, iT believe that the hard stuff
can be fatal much faster.
B: itm-ltt How about the Cross Street Baptist Church? id-E ; 'Ou- zi af ,
dai you, did you found the church?
D: As a Baptist mission, yeah.
B: And would you tell us something about the history of your church and
getting stattededid you have problems?
D: Yes sir, we aid i--..tb it was4Qite a struggle. When I came to
Baltimore there wasfi't' a church, wr-e!aideiza., most people call it
an Indian church because Aigo '' say ninety percent of the people
that come there are Indian people and ESca, when I came to
Baltimore, there wasn t a church for the Indian people to go to became
c-L-mrrh,, like St. Elizabeth, we have the Methodist parrish over on
Baltimore Street, right in the community here this church here, also
the sanctuary was open in operation at this time. But I find that the

11 LUM 211 A
Indian people just die eel comfortable. Theyxdidn't feel
^ good. They'd 'o to the church once in a while, but they just
didn'tfeel like at home. So this church started outand Rev. Bill
Lowry was the pastor of it-just a mission-we had a, like a hole in
the wall we called it. It was just a two-room apartment they started
on Fairmont Avenue in the neighborhood here, and that operated like
that under some name such as Non-Denominational, Holiness, or some-
thing like that. But th at where I got saved at. I was in that
little place around on Fairmont Avenue. So we moved from there after
I had got involved in the churchijn. I began to try to show the people
E^d
where we wanted to sort of venture out y.ap 'A, become a organized
church and started working with fifteen or twenty people that went to
church there, twelve or fifteen people and we moved from there to,
right next to the theatre here on Broadway, the Apex Theater, we rented
that building which was a store front and stayed in there for
-three or four year, and by then we were beginning to build up
a treasury and putting building fund money aside and then we
purchased a church with a sanctuary and four classrooms, a kitchen,
Lutheran
utility over where ewe'reit now. We bought it from a organiza-
tion, and it's a nice church and i've SEound that it'fsreally enhanced
the people and got more people involved once we bought a church.
A church makes a difference.
B: Oh yes kv' cl -(Y p -?''\^ ,
D: Right. So we..
B: And you were able to do this because the Lutherans were integrating and
found that they needed one church less. Is that the way it went?
D: Well, that's true. The pastor died at this church and rb-~was, like
the older members was dying out and there wa i enough members at the
church to keep the church anoew operating. So they moved all the

12 LUM 211 A
older members out of that church up about 'wo blocks from where
we'retat to another bigger Lutheran church.
B: Oh, I see.
D: And they wanted to sel we had some problem buying the building
because we were Indians. the neighborhood over there. 'tEs,
cnaiherto2adz I had a meeting downtown and they had called me down-
town to say we co dn' purchase the building because the people
were frightened because Indians were going to buy the building. And
I said, you know, if that the way you, I was talking to the officials,
some of the city officials and some of the officials from the Lutheran
organization and I said a- O -D-khj. We want the building but
we dQ want to buy the building if you don't)want to sell it to us
because 'r Indians." But that, I wouldn't accept that fact because
just because you pick up the paper and read about bad Indians doesLt )
mean that all the Indians are bad.
B: Right.
D: And dfter I had a long .ZS meeting with them there they decided to
change their position and sell us the building.
B: Well tht s)fgreat. You have a gift of explaining things and clarifying
thing^ a And your utter sincerity is un mistakable and I can
just imagine you talking to them and winning them over. And maybe
you didiet set out to do it that way you were just being you and
expressing what you felt the Lord would have you to say in your own
way. This was sort of a miracle, wasn't it?
D: Yes- it was. 6 and I do give the Lord the credit for all of i as
you said there I did4n plan it that way, I just went to sort of explain
our side0 vur aes, jof the situation and they decided and they- been
very happy since wov bean there too.
B: And they know they haven't made a mistake. They sure know that, don't they?

13 LUM 211 A
D: That} /true, and even the neighbors, they watch the church and if
anything goes wrong in the neighborhood, at one and two o'clock in
the morning they call me. And they watch the church. vebeen
ab le to get some of those people in the church over there, to come
into church with us -OSr d Not as much as we'd like, but
that has been^u--kaxow, the case that they've been I think
disappointed, but pleasantly disappointed in our being over there
and everything. We haven'tcaused them any trouble at all.
, i!OS
B: STi r cdtasgnfr.n'Vx- a little like the man that I heard about
who came home from World War II and people had heard he was dead and
here he steps off the train alive and he says,"Well tj sorry you
got disappointed." They'djlaugh if they got disappointed in this
particular way.
D: Right. much rather for it to have been disappointed, you
know, pleasantly, than otherwise.
B: I know what you mean,
D: So the church is still growing. We were very much enthused
about the church.
B: IiiNmsure you must be very happy about it. Should somebody waht to
contact you in some particular way, or if they wanted to make a donation
or if they wanted to reach >ou for further information or whatever, how
would they send their mail? Phone call, or whatever?
D: Well, we have a mailing list to the church which is 1117 West Cross
Street
B: 1117 West Cross Street.
D: yC,.
B: Baltimore', Maryland. What is the zip code?

14 LUM 211 A
D: That zip code, I had better check that. Ie got a card here with
it on it. I ca remember that zip code.
B: Its)very seldom that I can remember my own.
D: It snot on that. tafl the zip code is 21230.
B: Okay, that's Fine.
D: -6ftn- -a^r_-eivod, we received our mailing list this year at 211
South Broadway. We receive =o.Jaawo' mail here.
B: In care of The American Indian Study Center.
D: Right.
B: Do you have a telephone over there?
D: At the church?
B: rbba y:' L,
D: No, we had: a telephone there but we took it out because I ..
B: Do you have one at your home?
D: I have one at my home. -My-eM.mhia ny home number is 327-6132. My office
number here is 732-8230.
B: (inaudible)
END SIDE ONE

15 LUM 211 A
SIBE TWO
D: -====-.----. .. -that we are involved in until the only time it ever
seems to me that e accomplishing anything much is if I give
somebody else, they can make a statement about it someway or
another. Because when you do start from scratch as you said, it takes
years and years tas to build anything or to get anything accomplished.
It seems like you can look back and see, you know what I mean?
B: UtdPwa. I asked you about your church membership H' ] -L
D: I think iit's'been very good. REEive-e, I don't believe you asked me
K"" 'Li ller-d.6; > cC
is that the question of the membership, but we have.in a2eawas.%w t
running right now anywhere from somewhere between, well better than
a hundred, above a hundred. I believe our attendance this past Sunday
was a hundred and twenty, something like a hundred and twenty-six
people. ---- ..'' rl :-' And we'fre'ranging pretty much At
-t2.- at that figure now, which is up considerably from what it was
last year.
B: Well th t an indication of progress.
D: I think so. tiaVerY a great feeling tssr to see
that many people when the population of the Indian people is much
fewer here than at home, you know? To see hundred and some Indian
people together. Now when we have our homecoming here, which we have
once a years in the month of February, we have on a Sunday anywhere
from five to six hundred people that day here. At our homecoming
we use the sanctuary here because our church woIt seat that many
people. This church there will seat close to six hundred people, and
we have to use the whole center here when we have that. We get-most all
the Indian people in the neighborhood here and in the surrounding area

16 LUM 211 A
we get them here. And any other churches all come together with
us that day. We C 'Ji-'-,' m have a good turnout /'-ho *,C.]"
B: Do you have Sunday School?
D: lTBrrm; yes.
B: Well, thajs) certainly encouraging.
D: Also, one thingV'dlike to add, too, that we, in organizing this
church, ..' We hav
church, it's)not in the Burnt Swamp Association. We havn
-~iii5 decided yet to put IWte our church in the Burnt Swamp
Association, but the church is organized G4;gkneaw, in the city and
the state here. tax exempt. I did this with four guys in the
church there. We organized and incorporated the church and that way
we are tax exempt anda but we used the regular literature through
the Southern Baptist Conference. And we are also working with themBsi
Southern BIptist Minister's Association here, which is O0 f Il f_
4-
fuim the Baptist Book Store there and Rev. James i-s w'S he is
the coordinator of this program there. And he works with us some here
in programs such as vacation Bible school that we have in our church
every year and helping us to find the right kind of material that we
i-ypc Ow... found
should use for that Vffze LBs^;. i program^and I fim that to
bej-Rev. Tony \l/r'n YN\, He was in touch with me not too long
ago concerning the church here and talking with me concerning organ-
izing the church with the Burnt Swamp Association and fTKs(Y-~.S
'lUr, m- CtLi:
to show some of the films we took a trip over to the Holy Land along
with our, bur Tony ft cr !A At_ and dome of the ministers from
down there that I was fortunate enough that the church that I had
pastored sent me and paid maya,^me and my wife's way over there and
that was a wonderful experience too.

17 LUM 211 A
B: G O k, I know it was. oee faaas~ I certainly
an encouraged. I want to wish you the best of everything in what
yore ndeavoring to do. I know that you have to be in the Lord's
favor, but I certainly hope the work continues to expand and your
job. The Lord, in His own way, will encourage Ur),-r JU o-L{- tCjo/
te)nj^. L -(m r, s -Y sure He will.
D: Thank you. The encouraging to hear you say that. I appreciate
't_--=yotknaw, that feeling from you.
B: You know it is something of a problem to go into a community. I was
up against a similar situation and i not nearly the kind of spiritual
person kkaB you are9 among the H h Indians, when they were
attempting to establish a second church over there some
of the local people }le-r
want to get together and cause more trouble. And even people in the
same denomination were discouraging it. And I was talking to one of
l r "This is what you should
be encouraging. ___S_ stop these people from going out
and# getting drunk and getting ijtrouble." Have you ever .' .
_-__)_'__- that? I cn) understand anybody opposing a church. But
eventually this lady came up _cat9S _he cross, so to
speak, and they did fully accept her and the little church is still
going. It'sstill small, but they've'got a church in their community
where they didn' have one before.
D: Thaft'sgood. I'm;glad to hear that. I.know some of the people there.
I met some in Philadelphia. a'd)go up there and preach...
B: Lots of them work hver in Philadelphia.
D: Id go over there and preach at a church over there. It's a Baptist
church, a Freewill Baptist church, and they were without a pastor
for some while and.TR,, they wanted ka me to go over and work with

18 LUM 211 A
them some, and I wasn't able to give them much time, but I tried to
help them as much as I could for the time that I was ab le to give.
And I met some of the folks from around where yo talkingg about--
Ioldhh, A tsi'ah.
R: Right, around Hollister, North Carolina. Near the Virginia-North
Carolina Border. How about your young people? How do they respond?
D= Well, -They.T e, they respond real good. We have a lot of young
people involved in the church now. You see, w're\working a lot
of young people here and this gives us a chance to show them the
need to go to church. we've been able to get them involved in the
church, you know, the last couple of years. Because I find the
center being a great help also in being able to get people to-
gether once, as I said a while ago, once we get them together
we can show them the need of the church and w'hehaving a good
turnout, a good support from the young people of the community here
now and we're\very enthused about that.
B: Well, tha certainly good. Well, we certainly want to thank you
for giving us this opportunity to share these things with other
people. Is there anything like to add in your own way, yiuzko,
anything you liFk=teay -^
D: Well, I suppose wee about covered,- -yeopm,;:--the most of my
' Jd roj f-", '"- /
experience in general. I dot think there'sanything particular
other than what e'e already discussed.
B: Well i!' tuoysdtn =a-sa if you had to give advice to other ministers,
eyoe_ \W1- \ ) knit,.. r>- 2 V l \a, 1 '- *r1. OL --o- ,
D: Forty.
B: Yes, L rC',- ?', rA0o--r t s C 'rL -. ..
But other ministers who are coming along, what would you say in the
way of encouragement to them?gfirD D: JOc V'r, ,ir, >pof-\,r
p7 A j_ L ,' .;'it' U S
.^ir~ ~~~~~~~~~~T C' P "

19 LUM 211 A
D: Well, my my advice to any young minister or any young person that
got goals, and we most of us have goals set in life that 4 ike
to reach, maybe some of us, most of us have goals that we'll never
reach, but I believe we should set goals in our life and try to reach
those goal. and one ofj^3 I think the most important things in our
life is to try to win and to restore cJr -; s ,-) f ''* which I
find is something we are about to lose, you know? If you can build
confidence in people, in you, in yourself, then you can get the
support of the peopleD)mISB
B: That copes first, doesn't it?
D: That comes first. That 'sne of the things in t an b ti g- t.-%f1 ,
trying to be truthful and trying to ,-yraAssshow the people that
h s ot really altogether just concerned about himself, but he
concerned about all the people that are around him.
B: Right.
D:B And I find that this builds and restores confidenc%-_we have to have
that.
B: Well, I certainly want to thank you. Ik*sxhEnx x This has been a very
-E enlightening and enjoyable interview. I certainly enjoyed it. As I
said a while ago, I want to wish you the best of everything and I cer-
tainly hope you remember Lofrr ~ flQ-~ mhaa e working together
in your prayers.
D: I certainly will. I s a great honor and a privilege to sit down and
talk with you and to do this interview. S a-i- as I said, v
heard a lot of talk about you. I was just thinking about, know about
your son and I believe it is that writes the Indian Voice?
B: Right.
D: Editor of the Indian Voice. And I, a great privilege for me to meet you

20 LUM 211 A
I want you to know that.
B: Thank you very much. One person who is very much i'gtbied and who
has so much confidence in youJ Appreciate you so much o- crnu-t .S
lr. y' g V.. r >x,
feel this way about you. And you re the kind of person who inspires
confidence. AT .5'-S-- KfrW.< > i' JoL, you have to know,3y E-S
There's feeling there gaewdi ) /.+ .-. --f C r -, Lh. > :.
..h... er.nc .., .F.." 4"' f p Q ---
D: Well, I appreciate that. I appreciate brother Locklear, too.; __o .c.re
~V-a ,...{-t- your talking about here, me and him have been working
together Sa-b.u1W, quite a few years here, in here, and the church)
inside the church and he's)a fine fellow and I find him to be one of
the aomaa-ka;>,' finest men that Ie ever worked with and I appreciate
him the same way. ht -tWedwaa:tto;-wi -yua S T y I want to wish
you and Larry all the luc k and give you both Godspeed in you work.
(I'm)sure yo i'll ive great help to people and be a geat success in
what you 're eoing.
B: Well, thank you so much Thank you so very much.