Winds of Disenchantment nerfed

Comments

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial.

To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect.

The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect.

I wonder, why did you just nerf it? You could at least give us some trade off or balanced it more, e.g. you could also lower the size of bubble by like 20-33%, make cast 1/2 second and lower CD to 60 seconds maybe. I remember what you did in the past to Arc Divider, Shield Bash and Head Butt. It was overnerf with no trade off again and power berserker is now obsolete. Those berserker nerfs should be reverted as now we also have PoF elite specs. Sorry for bit offtopic, but I wanted to put it in one message.

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial.

To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect.

The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect.

When you talk about counterplay, what was the thought process behind giving deadeyes shadow meld? Revealed was intended to be a counter to stealth, why would you give a counter to a counter? How many counterplays do you intend to make?

I think if I could sum up one of the main issues within the balance team is the complete lack of communication with the community that plays the game. It speaks volumes that someone has to make a thread on the official forum to ask why they did something and get a random response from someone "Oh this is why we did it....".

It feels like it should be the opposite. Hey guys what are your concerns? What are your ideas about balance? What are your suggestions? And THEN the team makes a balance patch or change. In this way you are asking for feedback from the community BEFORE making the change not AFTER.

More communication, 2 way communication not 1 way, would be a great way to improve the balance patch cadence, game impact and overall satisfaction of the WvW community.

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial.

To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect.

The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect.

So you decided to remove it as a matter of contention so that people can now easily "wait it out", it's a skill that takes 1.5 seconds to even wind up, it now takes an additional second to even pulse. We even have to be in mele range to use it. All this for a paltry 5 second aoe. By this logic I should get 2.5 seconds of warning that a deadeye, or mesmer is going to 1 shot me from stealth (stealth...another very powerful effect), or any aoe's max length should be 5 seconds because that halts my mele combat. These changes would make some sense if this was a low CD skill, or a ranged skill, or a skill that had a very small wind up but it's not... This nerf is very frustrating, we finally had a purpose in the zerg again.

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial.

To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect.

The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect.

So you decided to remove it as a matter of contention so that people can now easily "wait it out", it's a skill that takes 1.5 seconds to even wind up, it now takes an additional second to even pulse. We even have to be in mele range to use it. All this for a paltry 5 second aoe. By this logic I should get 2.5 seconds of warning that a deadeye, or mesmer is going to 1 shot me from stealth (stealth...another very powerful effect), or any aoe's max length should be 5 seconds because that halts my mele combat. These changes would make some sense if this was a low CD skill, or a ranged skill, or a skill that had a very small wind up but it's not... This nerf is very frustrating, we finally had a purpose in the zerg again.

Yeah agreed. Like the huge cast and tell isn't already giving people a chance to move off. I asked for a CD reduction but honestly I would be happier with a 1/2 cast time. Don't forget the Warrior has to use all cooldowns to deliver this bubble for a measly 4 seconds of boon strip.

Don't listen to the players who cry about this skill, most often it is actually simply damage that wipes blobs after bubbles have been placed. It's more like a flag that says Go and allows for things to happen. Nobody is actually dying to boon strip.

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial.

To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect.

The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect.

You are right this time, that there was NO "opportunity for counterplay" at all before, and despite these changes (which may need further tweaking), there are still NO ways to quickly identify if that huge yellow bubble is friendly or not, especially with multiple of those on top of each other. Please change the color of enemy bubble to something clearly different. The time it takes to identify darker yellow from brighter yellow, in a sea of effects all over the place, it's anything but instant.

I haven't played since the nerf, can't comment about the rest, but if you made it weaker allow to be used on a shorter cooldown. These things have to be tested in real WvW encounters, otherwise will end being way too OP, or simply useless.

Don't listen to the players who cry about this skill, most often it is actually simply damage that wipes blobs after bubbles have been placed. It's more like a flag that says Go and allows for things to happen. Nobody is actually dying to boon strip.

That's very wrong: "Nobody is actually dying to boon strip". While Protection boon and others are VITAL at times, Stability boon it's absolutely essential; no stability means CERTAIN death, if stunbreaks are on cooldown and you get locked by CC in a focused damage.
Boon Strip in every such moments means certain death -- and has to be a balance between applying and stripping boons.

Don't listen to the players who cry about this skill, most often it is actually simply damage that wipes blobs after bubbles have been placed. It's more like a flag that says Go and allows for things to happen. Nobody is actually dying to boon strip.

That's very wrong: "Nobody is actually dying to boon strip". While Protection boon and others are VITAL at times, Stability boon it's absolutely essential; no stability means CERTAIN death, if stunbreaks are on cooldown and you get locked by CC in a focused damage.
Boon Strip in every such moments means certain death -- and has to be a balance between applying and stripping boons.

So it's certain death IF the very specific criteria are met: stability just so happens to be the boon that was stripped, you didn't dodge out of the bubble, you blew your stunbreaks and you are subject to CC focus.

Ok, I see what you're saying - SOME people in these highly specific circumstances are dying to the boon strip.

Don't listen to the players who cry about this skill, most often it is actually simply damage that wipes blobs after bubbles have been placed. It's more like a flag that says Go and allows for things to happen. Nobody is actually dying to boon strip.

That's very wrong: "Nobody is actually dying to boon strip". While Protection boon and others are VITAL at times, Stability boon it's absolutely essential; no stability means CERTAIN death, if stunbreaks are on cooldown and you get locked by CC in a focused damage.
Boon Strip in every such moments means certain death -- and has to be a balance between applying and stripping boons.

So it's certain death IF the very specific criteria are met: stability just so happens to be the boon that was stripped, you didn't dodge out of the bubble, you blew your stunbreaks and you are subject to CC focus.

Ok, I see what you're saying - SOME people in these highly specific circumstances are dying to the boon strip.

First is about positioning, but we can't ask devs to balance that. Then, we must risk and clash, that means both placing bubbles and avoiding them, and these are killers (though mostly indirectly, but so is CC and damage, they must be focused and be plenty of them timed well).
It's fine that we are dying to boon strip, that's not the problem, but making it possible to both land that bubble skill and allow ways to escape it -- and make it both possible, as in "balanced".

Roaming is definitely dead unless your happy running into +5 teams who will gladly gank you and throw siege on your corpse.

Server re-linking is as bad as it was before re-linking but with different wrapping paper and a fancy box, you think you have something new but after a while you still end up with the same stale boring matches. Isn't the system supposed to match your server against similar sized, similar ranked server's?

I have no isues about who we get linked with, The issue is with who we end up facing week after week. Outnumbered, timezone differences.....yada yada

They do but really rarely run into organized guild groups (with or against). By judging stream time alone, they don't have an understanding of how good GvG and zerging differs. Most of the time they run havoc/objectives. They could get run over by one WoD. I've followed Anet tags recently in DBL and it was boring because I don't enjoy taking paper objectives and hope for enemy defense, but that's how they seem to play.

the area denial stuff is nonsense aswell, people engage with bubbles, it helps cancel out pirate shipping.
its available to everyone so there is no 'advantage' simply scourages crying 'foul' presuambly on reddit. what a joke.

@Miko.4158 said:
the area denial stuff is nonsense aswell, people engage with bubbles, it helps cancel out pirate shipping.
its available to everyone so there is no 'advantage' simply scourages crying 'foul' presuambly on reddit. what a joke.

The old winds was a textbook example of area denial; total no man's land wherever a bubble was up, top priority was to gtfo the bubble asap or risk getting ccd where supports couldn't help much.

It still serves as solid area denial it just doesn't last as long and there's now a 1s grace period to gtfo.

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial.

To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect.

The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect.

So now your consider about counter play? When you tune burst so high it's almost at CoD levels that it provide very little or limited counter play?
Are there too many cooks in the kitchen or just no body actually knows what's going on?

@Miko.4158 said:
the area denial stuff is nonsense aswell, people engage with bubbles, it helps cancel out pirate shipping.
its available to everyone so there is no 'advantage' simply scourages crying 'foul' presuambly on reddit. what a joke.

The old winds was a textbook example of area denial; total no man's land wherever a bubble was up, top priority was to gtfo the bubble asap or risk getting ccd where supports couldn't help much.

It still serves as solid area denial it just doesn't last as long and there's now a 1s grace period to gtfo.

a million red rings is area denial.
because its not balanced in the game, multi tagging loot from afar no-risk strategy.

@Miko.4158 said:
the area denial stuff is nonsense aswell, people engage with bubbles, it helps cancel out pirate shipping.
its available to everyone so there is no 'advantage' simply scourages crying 'foul' presuambly on reddit. what a joke.

The old winds was a textbook example of area denial; total no man's land wherever a bubble was up, top priority was to gtfo the bubble asap or risk getting ccd where supports couldn't help much.

It still serves as solid area denial it just doesn't last as long and there's now a 1s grace period to gtfo.

a million red rings is area denial.
because its not balanced in the game, multi tagging loot from afar no-risk strategy.

Hyperbolic but yes ranged ground targeted sustained aoes are also a form of area denial and they are what makes scourge so good for wvw. So what?

so how many scourges are there to sb's.
assuming wvwers choose the strongest strategy, and scourge is over represented
which needs balance.
if bubble counters scourge as it allows melee.....
come on people.
its not rocket science.

@Miko.4158 said:
so how many scourges are there to sb's.
assuming wvwers choose the strongest strategy, and scourge is over represented
which needs balance.
if bubble counters scourge as it allows melee.....
come on people.
its not rocket science.

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial.

To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect.

The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect.

@Miko.4158 said:
so how many scourges are there to sb's.
assuming wvwers choose the strongest strategy, and scourge is over represented
which needs balance.
if bubble counters scourge as it allows melee.....
come on people.
its not rocket science.

scourge = pirate ship,
wod = melee
you've conveniently left out the projectile bit.
bubble goes up melee/everyone charges pirateship.
there are def bubbles etc , but the main is to get into the enemy zerg rather than stand off .
if you bubble and they retreat open backs.
if they charge stand off broken.
if they stand still, all in.
alot of scourge in wvw have an interst in keeping it pirate heavy and are vocal
If you are on balance needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.

@Miko.4158 said:
so how many scourges are there to sb's.
assuming wvwers choose the strongest strategy, and scourge is over represented
which needs balance.
if bubble counters scourge as it allows melee.....
come on people.
its not rocket science.

scourge = pirate ship,
wod = melee
you've conveniently left out the projectile bit.
bubble goes up melee/everyone charges pirateship.
there are def bubbles etc , but the main is to get into the enemy zerg rather than stand off .
if you bubble and they retreat open backs.
if they charge stand off broken.
if they stand still, all in.
alot of scourge in wvw have an interst in keeping it pirate heavy and are vocal
If you are on balance needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.

I understand how offensive bubbles work they don't counter scourges they counter the stab and resi cds of the enemy groups supports. The whole point of the offensive bubble is to prevent the support from being able to do their job long enough to kill them all in one big melee bomb. WoD doesn't counter scourges it counters firebrands. The projectile hate is irrelevant when talking about scourges as most of their damage isn't projectile based.

@Miko.4158 said:
the area denial stuff is nonsense aswell, people engage with bubbles, it helps cancel out pirate shipping.
its available to everyone so there is no 'advantage' simply scourages crying 'foul' presuambly on reddit. what a joke.

The old winds was a textbook example of area denial; total no man's land wherever a bubble was up, top priority was to gtfo the bubble asap or risk getting ccd where supports couldn't help much.

It still serves as solid area denial it just doesn't last as long and there's now a 1s grace period to gtfo.

a million red rings is area denial.
because its not balanced in the game, multi tagging loot from afar no-risk strategy.

Hyperbolic but yes ranged ground targeted sustained aoes are also a form of area denial and they are what makes scourge so good for wvw. So what?

Don't even get me started on whats wrong with Scourge if you're wanting to talk AOE denial, when the enemy zerg can walk freely on a carpet of their own AOE rings and you can't get anywhere near them before they shift those AOE's all on top of you and you just insta-melt. Plus the scourge does actual boon hate because it converts boons into conditions (you know...more damage) while their skills still do additional damage, meanwhile warrior's is more of a boon dislike and just strips boons for next to no damage.

@Miko.4158 said:
so how many scourges are there to sb's.
assuming wvwers choose the strongest strategy, and scourge is over represented
which needs balance.
if bubble counters scourge as it allows melee.....
come on people.
its not rocket science.

@Miko.4158 said:
the area denial stuff is nonsense aswell, people engage with bubbles, it helps cancel out pirate shipping.
its available to everyone so there is no 'advantage' simply scourages crying 'foul' presuambly on reddit. what a joke.

The old winds was a textbook example of area denial; total no man's land wherever a bubble was up, top priority was to gtfo the bubble asap or risk getting ccd where supports couldn't help much.

It still serves as solid area denial it just doesn't last as long and there's now a 1s grace period to gtfo.

a million red rings is area denial.
because its not balanced in the game, multi tagging loot from afar no-risk strategy.

Hyperbolic but yes ranged ground targeted sustained aoes are also a form of area denial and they are what makes scourge so good for wvw. So what?

Don't even get me started on whats wrong with Scourge if you're wanting to talk AOE denial, when the enemy zerg can walk freely on a carpet of their own AOE rings and you can't get anywhere near them before they shift those AOE's all on top of you and you just insta-melt. Plus the scourge does actual boon hate because it converts boons into conditions (you know...more damage) while their skills still do additional damage, meanwhile warrior's is more of a boon dislike and just strips boons for next to no damage.

@Miko.4158 said:
so how many scourges are there to sb's.
assuming wvwers choose the strongest strategy, and scourge is over represented
which needs balance.
if bubble counters scourge as it allows melee.....
come on people.
its not rocket science.

I think scourge area denial is a harder thing to change satisfactorily because the entire spec is designed around area denial. Firebrand has a similar problem; the entire spec is designed to be the best support in pretty much every way. Can't change just one thing. The funny thing about spellbreaker is that all of its role as the ultimate boon hate spec is concentrated in one skill so it's easier to work on from a design standpoint.

As I've said before the boon strip by itself isn't what makes WoD so strong, it's the boon denial. If WoD were just a big null field I don't think it would be an issue.

@Miko.4158 said:
the area denial stuff is nonsense aswell, people engage with bubbles, it helps cancel out pirate shipping.
its available to everyone so there is no 'advantage' simply scourages crying 'foul' presuambly on reddit. what a joke.

The old winds was a textbook example of area denial; total no man's land wherever a bubble was up, top priority was to gtfo the bubble asap or risk getting ccd where supports couldn't help much.

It still serves as solid area denial it just doesn't last as long and there's now a 1s grace period to gtfo.

a million red rings is area denial.
because its not balanced in the game, multi tagging loot from afar no-risk strategy.

Hyperbolic but yes ranged ground targeted sustained aoes are also a form of area denial and they are what makes scourge so good for wvw. So what?

Don't even get me started on whats wrong with Scourge if you're wanting to talk AOE denial, when the enemy zerg can walk freely on a carpet of their own AOE rings and you can't get anywhere near them before they shift those AOE's all on top of you and you just insta-melt. Plus the scourge does actual boon hate because it converts boons into conditions (you know...more damage) while their skills still do additional damage, meanwhile warrior's is more of a boon dislike and just strips boons for next to no damage.

@Miko.4158 said:
so how many scourges are there to sb's.
assuming wvwers choose the strongest strategy, and scourge is over represented
which needs balance.
if bubble counters scourge as it allows melee.....
come on people.
its not rocket science.

I think scourge area denial is a harder thing to change satisfactorily because the entire spec is designed around area denial. Firebrand has a similar problem; the entire spec is designed to be the best support in pretty much every way. Can't change just one thing. The funny thing about spellbreaker is that all of its role as the ultimate boon hate spec is concentrated in one skill so it's easier to work on from a design standpoint.

As I've said before the boon strip by itself isn't what makes WoD so strong, it's the boon denial. If WoD were just a big null field I don't think it would be an issue.

Lol SB is ultimate boon hate spec? As I said it's just boon dislike, Scourge is ultimate boon hate because most of it's boon strips don't strip boons it converts them to conditions so it actually punishes you for your boons and sometimes gives the boons to themselves, SB just says I'd rather you not have those boons. Scourge gets to do most of that from range, while warrior has to be on top of you to do any of it. Also one of Warrior's larger areas for boon dislike are now from hard CC's which if the enemy has stability lol nothing happens you just removed a stack of stability, Scourge doesn't care about stability for it's boon hate. If that doesn't say that Scourge is ultimate boon hate idk what does. Also I'd much much rather fight in an enemy SB bubble for 1 minute than fight in Scourge AoE for 20 seconds.

its not balance, if you take a weak elite and nerf 50% of its good skills.
in terms of size- a 60%? correction/?
best case its an original kitten mistake and yet so massive it slipped through testing and various patches and somehow didnt end up with loads of sbs.
worst case its knee jerk to reddit whinging by pirateships.
shambles.

@Miko.4158 said:
the area denial stuff is nonsense aswell, people engage with bubbles, it helps cancel out pirate shipping.
its available to everyone so there is no 'advantage' simply scourages crying 'foul' presuambly on reddit. what a joke.

The old winds was a textbook example of area denial; total no man's land wherever a bubble was up, top priority was to gtfo the bubble asap or risk getting ccd where supports couldn't help much.

It still serves as solid area denial it just doesn't last as long and there's now a 1s grace period to gtfo.

a million red rings is area denial.
because its not balanced in the game, multi tagging loot from afar no-risk strategy.

Hyperbolic but yes ranged ground targeted sustained aoes are also a form of area denial and they are what makes scourge so good for wvw. So what?

Don't even get me started on whats wrong with Scourge if you're wanting to talk AOE denial, when the enemy zerg can walk freely on a carpet of their own AOE rings and you can't get anywhere near them before they shift those AOE's all on top of you and you just insta-melt. Plus the scourge does actual boon hate because it converts boons into conditions (you know...more damage) while their skills still do additional damage, meanwhile warrior's is more of a boon dislike and just strips boons for next to no damage.

@Miko.4158 said:
so how many scourges are there to sb's.
assuming wvwers choose the strongest strategy, and scourge is over represented
which needs balance.
if bubble counters scourge as it allows melee.....
come on people.
its not rocket science.

I think scourge area denial is a harder thing to change satisfactorily because the entire spec is designed around area denial. Firebrand has a similar problem; the entire spec is designed to be the best support in pretty much every way. Can't change just one thing. The funny thing about spellbreaker is that all of its role as the ultimate boon hate spec is concentrated in one skill so it's easier to work on from a design standpoint.

As I've said before the boon strip by itself isn't what makes WoD so strong, it's the boon denial. If WoD were just a big null field I don't think it would be an issue.

Lol SB is ultimate boon hate spec? As I said it's just boon dislike, Scourge is ultimate boon hate because most of it's boon strips don't strip boons it converts them to conditions so it actually punishes you for your boons and sometimes gives the boons to themselves, SB just says I'd rather you not have those boons. Scourge gets to do most of that from range, while warrior has to be on top of you to do any of it. Also one of Warrior's larger areas for boon dislike are now from hard CC's which if the enemy has stability lol nothing happens you just removed a stack of stability, Scourge doesn't care about stability for it's boon hate. If that doesn't say that Scourge is ultimate boon hate idk what does. Also I'd much much rather fight in an enemy SB bubble for 1 minute than fight in Scourge AoE for 20 seconds.

Yeah I'd say spellbreakers unique mechanic is the ultimate form of boon hate.

I'll take fighting inside scourge aoe over fighting inside a bubble any day.

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial.

To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect.

The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect.

While you're digging deep, how about fixing the animation bug that makes WoD reappear after the skill has ended. I believe this gives people the impression that the skill lasts longer than it actually does.

@Miko.4158 said:
the area denial stuff is nonsense aswell, people engage with bubbles, it helps cancel out pirate shipping.
its available to everyone so there is no 'advantage' simply scourages crying 'foul' presuambly on reddit. what a joke.

The old winds was a textbook example of area denial; total no man's land wherever a bubble was up, top priority was to gtfo the bubble asap or risk getting ccd where supports couldn't help much.

It still serves as solid area denial it just doesn't last as long and there's now a 1s grace period to gtfo.

a million red rings is area denial.
because its not balanced in the game, multi tagging loot from afar no-risk strategy.

Hyperbolic but yes ranged ground targeted sustained aoes are also a form of area denial and they are what makes scourge so good for wvw. So what?

Don't even get me started on whats wrong with Scourge if you're wanting to talk AOE denial, when the enemy zerg can walk freely on a carpet of their own AOE rings and you can't get anywhere near them before they shift those AOE's all on top of you and you just insta-melt. Plus the scourge does actual boon hate because it converts boons into conditions (you know...more damage) while their skills still do additional damage, meanwhile warrior's is more of a boon dislike and just strips boons for next to no damage.

@Miko.4158 said:
so how many scourges are there to sb's.
assuming wvwers choose the strongest strategy, and scourge is over represented
which needs balance.
if bubble counters scourge as it allows melee.....
come on people.
its not rocket science.

I think scourge area denial is a harder thing to change satisfactorily because the entire spec is designed around area denial. Firebrand has a similar problem; the entire spec is designed to be the best support in pretty much every way. Can't change just one thing. The funny thing about spellbreaker is that all of its role as the ultimate boon hate spec is concentrated in one skill so it's easier to work on from a design standpoint.

As I've said before the boon strip by itself isn't what makes WoD so strong, it's the boon denial. If WoD were just a big null field I don't think it would be an issue.

Lol SB is ultimate boon hate spec? As I said it's just boon dislike, Scourge is ultimate boon hate because most of it's boon strips don't strip boons it converts them to conditions so it actually punishes you for your boons and sometimes gives the boons to themselves, SB just says I'd rather you not have those boons. Scourge gets to do most of that from range, while warrior has to be on top of you to do any of it. Also one of Warrior's larger areas for boon dislike are now from hard CC's which if the enemy has stability lol nothing happens you just removed a stack of stability, Scourge doesn't care about stability for it's boon hate. If that doesn't say that Scourge is ultimate boon hate idk what does. Also I'd much much rather fight in an enemy SB bubble for 1 minute than fight in Scourge AoE for 20 seconds.

Yeah I'd say spellbreakers unique mechanic is the ultimate form of boon hate.

I'll take fighting inside scourge aoe over fighting inside a bubble any day.

Which mechanic are you talking about is the ultimate form of boon hate? If you're talking about WoD's disenchantment debuff it's now only 4 seconds, on a 90 second CD, with a 2.5 second warning...such an "ultimate form of boon hate." I would much rather not have any boons than have my boons converted into conditions. While the scourges get to maintain their boon hate through a fight a warrior doesn't have anything they can maintain for boon dislike as much as a Scourge.

@Miko.4158 said:
the area denial stuff is nonsense aswell, people engage with bubbles, it helps cancel out pirate shipping.
its available to everyone so there is no 'advantage' simply scourages crying 'foul' presuambly on reddit. what a joke.

The old winds was a textbook example of area denial; total no man's land wherever a bubble was up, top priority was to gtfo the bubble asap or risk getting ccd where supports couldn't help much.

It still serves as solid area denial it just doesn't last as long and there's now a 1s grace period to gtfo.

a million red rings is area denial.
because its not balanced in the game, multi tagging loot from afar no-risk strategy.

Hyperbolic but yes ranged ground targeted sustained aoes are also a form of area denial and they are what makes scourge so good for wvw. So what?

Don't even get me started on whats wrong with Scourge if you're wanting to talk AOE denial, when the enemy zerg can walk freely on a carpet of their own AOE rings and you can't get anywhere near them before they shift those AOE's all on top of you and you just insta-melt. Plus the scourge does actual boon hate because it converts boons into conditions (you know...more damage) while their skills still do additional damage, meanwhile warrior's is more of a boon dislike and just strips boons for next to no damage.

@Miko.4158 said:
so how many scourges are there to sb's.
assuming wvwers choose the strongest strategy, and scourge is over represented
which needs balance.
if bubble counters scourge as it allows melee.....
come on people.
its not rocket science.

I think scourge area denial is a harder thing to change satisfactorily because the entire spec is designed around area denial. Firebrand has a similar problem; the entire spec is designed to be the best support in pretty much every way. Can't change just one thing. The funny thing about spellbreaker is that all of its role as the ultimate boon hate spec is concentrated in one skill so it's easier to work on from a design standpoint.

As I've said before the boon strip by itself isn't what makes WoD so strong, it's the boon denial. If WoD were just a big null field I don't think it would be an issue.

Lol SB is ultimate boon hate spec? As I said it's just boon dislike, Scourge is ultimate boon hate because most of it's boon strips don't strip boons it converts them to conditions so it actually punishes you for your boons and sometimes gives the boons to themselves, SB just says I'd rather you not have those boons. Scourge gets to do most of that from range, while warrior has to be on top of you to do any of it. Also one of Warrior's larger areas for boon dislike are now from hard CC's which if the enemy has stability lol nothing happens you just removed a stack of stability, Scourge doesn't care about stability for it's boon hate. If that doesn't say that Scourge is ultimate boon hate idk what does. Also I'd much much rather fight in an enemy SB bubble for 1 minute than fight in Scourge AoE for 20 seconds.

Yeah I'd say spellbreakers unique mechanic is the ultimate form of boon hate.

I'll take fighting inside scourge aoe over fighting inside a bubble any day.

Which mechanic are you talking about is the ultimate form of boon hate? If you're talking about WoD's disenchantment debuff it's now only 4 seconds, on a 90 second CD, with a 2.5 second warning...such an "ultimate form of boon hate." I would much rather not have any boons than have my boons converted into conditions. While the scourges get to maintain their boon hate through a fight a warrior doesn't have anything they can maintain for boon dislike as much as a Scourge.

Yeah the boon denial debuff. My point was that that debuff is the ultimate form of boon hate but spellbreakers only got it on their elite while pretty much everything else about spellbreaker is meh. Whereas everything problematic about firebrands and scourges is spread out amongst their class mechanic utilities elites and traits which is what makes them hard to tone down properly compared to spellbreakers.

@Miko.4158 said:
the area denial stuff is nonsense aswell, people engage with bubbles, it helps cancel out pirate shipping.
its available to everyone so there is no 'advantage' simply scourages crying 'foul' presuambly on reddit. what a joke.

The old winds was a textbook example of area denial; total no man's land wherever a bubble was up, top priority was to gtfo the bubble asap or risk getting ccd where supports couldn't help much.

It still serves as solid area denial it just doesn't last as long and there's now a 1s grace period to gtfo.

a million red rings is area denial.
because its not balanced in the game, multi tagging loot from afar no-risk strategy.

Hyperbolic but yes ranged ground targeted sustained aoes are also a form of area denial and they are what makes scourge so good for wvw. So what?

Don't even get me started on whats wrong with Scourge if you're wanting to talk AOE denial, when the enemy zerg can walk freely on a carpet of their own AOE rings and you can't get anywhere near them before they shift those AOE's all on top of you and you just insta-melt. Plus the scourge does actual boon hate because it converts boons into conditions (you know...more damage) while their skills still do additional damage, meanwhile warrior's is more of a boon dislike and just strips boons for next to no damage.

@Miko.4158 said:
so how many scourges are there to sb's.
assuming wvwers choose the strongest strategy, and scourge is over represented
which needs balance.
if bubble counters scourge as it allows melee.....
come on people.
its not rocket science.

I think scourge area denial is a harder thing to change satisfactorily because the entire spec is designed around area denial. Firebrand has a similar problem; the entire spec is designed to be the best support in pretty much every way. Can't change just one thing. The funny thing about spellbreaker is that all of its role as the ultimate boon hate spec is concentrated in one skill so it's easier to work on from a design standpoint.

As I've said before the boon strip by itself isn't what makes WoD so strong, it's the boon denial. If WoD were just a big null field I don't think it would be an issue.

Lol SB is ultimate boon hate spec? As I said it's just boon dislike, Scourge is ultimate boon hate because most of it's boon strips don't strip boons it converts them to conditions so it actually punishes you for your boons and sometimes gives the boons to themselves, SB just says I'd rather you not have those boons. Scourge gets to do most of that from range, while warrior has to be on top of you to do any of it. Also one of Warrior's larger areas for boon dislike are now from hard CC's which if the enemy has stability lol nothing happens you just removed a stack of stability, Scourge doesn't care about stability for it's boon hate. If that doesn't say that Scourge is ultimate boon hate idk what does. Also I'd much much rather fight in an enemy SB bubble for 1 minute than fight in Scourge AoE for 20 seconds.

Yeah I'd say spellbreakers unique mechanic is the ultimate form of boon hate.

I'll take fighting inside scourge aoe over fighting inside a bubble any day.

Which mechanic are you talking about is the ultimate form of boon hate? If you're talking about WoD's disenchantment debuff it's now only 4 seconds, on a 90 second CD, with a 2.5 second warning...such an "ultimate form of boon hate." I would much rather not have any boons than have my boons converted into conditions. While the scourges get to maintain their boon hate through a fight a warrior doesn't have anything they can maintain for boon dislike as much as a Scourge.

Yeah the boon denial debuff. My point was that that debuff is the ultimate form of boon hate but spellbreakers only got it on their elite while pretty much everything else about spellbreaker is meh. Whereas everything problematic about firebrands and scourges is spread out amongst their class mechanic utilities elites and traits which is what makes them hard to tone down properly compared to spellbreakers.

It's not OP it's 4 seconds of no boons (except those that you already have, and you'll only lose 4 of them through those 4 seconds IF you stay in the bubble). And they've now pretty much made SB pretty useless and meh compared to those other 2 professions, the other 2 should have been fixed WELL before they even looked at our 1 skill. WoD isn't the problem it's 1 AoE that used to last 10 seconds in a world of AoE spam that is a heck of allot more than WoD. As I've said SB isn't boon hate it's boon dislike the boon denial far better than being punished like a scourge can do for boons. You can make a scourge that literally corrupts boons into conditions with pretty much every skill it does while making itself stronger and stealing your boons that my friend is boon hate. It also plays very well off it's core traits for the boon hatred that they have.

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial.

To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect.

The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect.

and the counterplay to boon spam now is to stack more scourges (and more boon spam fbs) which is pretty poor balance wise in my opinion

I'd say that the nerf makes sense and emphasizes on the team having to really play with that bubble to keep the enemy inside and if they succeed in it, they get well rewarded. Duration of bubble was definitely too long and area denial potential too big with that.

@Red Haired Savage.5430 said:
It's not OP it's 4 seconds of no boons (except those that you already have, and you'll only lose 4 of them through those 4 seconds IF you stay in the bubble). And they've now pretty much made SB pretty useless and meh compared to those other 2 professions, the other 2 should have been fixed WELL before they even looked at our 1 skill. WoD isn't the problem it's 1 AoE that used to last 10 seconds in a world of AoE spam that is a heck of allot more than WoD. As I've said SB isn't boon hate it's boon dislike the boon denial far better than being punished like a scourge can do for boons. You can make a scourge that literally corrupts boons into conditions with pretty much every skill it does while making itself stronger and stealing your boons that my friend is boon hate. It also plays very well off it's core traits for the boon hatred that they have.

4 seconds now was 10. Can be chained by multiple spellbreakers one after another completely shutting down one particular area. Can alternatively be carpet bombed over a large area to force people to completely evacuate the zone or risk getting completely demolished by AoEs. By comparison Scourge's Breach is 5s and I think it's still considered to be one of the stronger elites in the game because it can be stacked or chained in the same way as WoD and synergizes extremely well with WoD. WoD was and still is insanely strong in organized play because even 4s without support against a good group can mean death. Again the boon strip isn't the issue, if that's all it did I would say keep it at 10s, boon strip is annoying but it's pretty easy to deal with in an organized group, the boon denial stuff is the real threat and it has no counterplay except to gtfo the bubble because it's a "player state" which cannot be cleansed.

As I said before Scourge and Firebrand are harder to fix because it's like everything they've got is a little too good for group play and all their stuff scales really well into medium and large scale fights whereas Spellbreaker is good for small scale and mostly terrible for medium to large scale except for the Elite which is insanely strong at all scales of play.

@Red Haired Savage.5430 said:
It's not OP it's 4 seconds of no boons (except those that you already have, and you'll only lose 4 of them through those 4 seconds IF you stay in the bubble). And they've now pretty much made SB pretty useless and meh compared to those other 2 professions, the other 2 should have been fixed WELL before they even looked at our 1 skill. WoD isn't the problem it's 1 AoE that used to last 10 seconds in a world of AoE spam that is a heck of allot more than WoD. As I've said SB isn't boon hate it's boon dislike the boon denial far better than being punished like a scourge can do for boons. You can make a scourge that literally corrupts boons into conditions with pretty much every skill it does while making itself stronger and stealing your boons that my friend is boon hate. It also plays very well off it's core traits for the boon hatred that they have.

4 seconds now was 10. Can be chained by multiple spellbreakers one after another completely shutting down one particular area. Can alternatively be carpet bombed over a large area to force people to completely evacuate the zone or risk getting completely demolished by AoEs. By comparison Scourge's Breach is 5s and I think it's still considered to be one of the stronger elites in the game because it can be stacked or chained in the same way as WoD and synergizes extremely well with WoD. WoD was and still is insanely strong in organized play because even 4s without support against a good group can mean death. Again the boon strip isn't the issue, if that's all it did I would say keep it at 10s, boon strip is annoying but it's pretty easy to deal with in an organized group, the boon denial stuff is the real threat and it has no counterplay except to gtfo the bubble because it's a "player state" which cannot be cleansed.

As I said before Scourge and Firebrand are harder to fix because it's like everything they've got is a little too good for group play and all their stuff scales really well into medium and large scale fights whereas Spellbreaker is good for small scale and mostly terrible for medium to large scale except for the Elite which is insanely strong at all scales of play.

If what scourge and firebrand have are a little too good it can be nerfed...if it can be built it can be nerfed, and at this point they should be nerfed.. You just have to take 1 look at a zerg to see what the OP classes are and what commanders are usually asking for. While WoD "can be chained or carpet bombed" over an area you don't see that, you see Scourges carpet bombing and chaining their AoE's. As I've said before I'd rather go without my boons than to be punished for them which is what scourge does while SB just stops the boons, it actually probably helps you because it's not getting corrupted into a condition and killing you that way.

Out of curiosity, what is it you think needs to be nerfed? Hammer 3? That's telegraphed like kitten. Hammer 5? You don't even have to hit the dodge key, you can run out of its AoE; the only way a Rev hits anyone with that is if he predicts where they will be in 1.25 seconds, and so any kills derived from it are well earned.

There is no question that Revenant hits like a truck, but it hits slow, so DPS is about on par with other professions, not to mention that upkeep abilities might force the Rev to just spam Hammer 1 all the while.

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial.

To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect.

The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect.

Thank you for replying and putting forth your reasoning! In light of this nuance, I think I can come to terms a little more with the nerf, however please think about or consider this detail if you haven't already:

Removing the initial pulse essentially takes one second off the duration, meaning it's more of a 4 second aoe. Was this your intention? 4 seconds of area denial with ample counterplay (you can see the warrior casting it too, so you now have a 2.5 second tell) locked behind a 1.5 second cast and 90 second cooldown seems a bit undertuned in my opinion.

If what scourge and firebrand have are a little too good it can be nerfed...if it can be built it can be nerfed, and at this point they should be nerfed..

I don't disagree I think they need to be nerfed but I think WoD needed to get nerfed first.

You just have to take 1 look at a zerg to see what the OP classes are and what commanders are usually asking for.

Well I don't know who you play with or who you have been following since PoF release but in my experience spellbreakers have been in very high demand in both the guild raids and the public squads I've been a part of since PoF release. I've personally run into many organized groups since PoF release running 5+ spellbreakers in squads of 20+ and some running as many as 15 out of 20. I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say that 90 percent of the fights I've been in since PoF release (thousands no doubt) have been decided by bubble usage either offensively or defensively.

While WoD "can be chained or carpet bombed" over an area you don't see that, you see Scourges carpet bombing and chaining their AoE's.

Again I don't know what guild you play with or what server you play on etc but I have been seeing just those sorts of WoD tactics used by every organized guild and indeed most of the public tag zergs I've faced on both EU and NA since PoF release so I don't know what to tell you.

As I've said before I'd rather go without my boons than to be punished for them which is what scourge does while SB just stops the boons, it actually probably helps you because it's not getting corrupted into a condition and killing you that way.

Ofcourse you're entitled to have your preferences as are we all but I happen to think you're horribly misguided on this one.

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial.

To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect.

The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect.

Thank you for replying and putting forth your reasoning! In light of this nuance, I think I can come to terms a little more with the nerf, however please think about or consider this detail if you haven't already:

Removing the initial pulse essentially takes one second off the duration, meaning it's more of a 4 second aoe. Was this your intention? 4 seconds of area denial with ample counterplay (you can see the warrior casting it too, so you now have a 2.5 second tell) locked behind a 1.5 second cast and 90 second cooldown seems a bit undertuned in my opinion.

If it is undertuned then people will stop taking WoD in favor of skills like warbanner, or another profession entirely. In my experience groups are still running spellbreakers and those spellbreakers are still running WoD, so it suggests the nerf was not overdone. It has only been a week since the nerf so we'll see if this remains the case over time.

If what scourge and firebrand have are a little too good it can be nerfed...if it can be built it can be nerfed, and at this point they should be nerfed..

I don't disagree I think they need to be nerfed but I think WoD needed to get nerfed first.

You just have to take 1 look at a zerg to see what the OP classes are and what commanders are usually asking for.

Well I don't know who you play with or who you have been following since PoF release but in my experience spellbreakers have been in very high demand in both the guild raids and the public squads I've been a part of since PoF release. I've personally run into many organized groups since PoF release running 5+ spellbreakers in squads of 20+ and some running as many as 15 out of 20. I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say that 90 percent of the fights I've been in since PoF release (thousands no doubt) have been decided by bubble usage either offensively or defensively.

While WoD "can be chained or carpet bombed" over an area you don't see that, you see Scourges carpet bombing and chaining their AoE's.

Again I don't know what guild you play with or what server you play on etc but I have been seeing just those sorts of WoD tactics used by every organized guild and indeed most of the public tag zergs I've faced on both EU and NA since PoF release so I don't know what to tell you.

As I've said before I'd rather go without my boons than to be punished for them which is what scourge does while SB just stops the boons, it actually probably helps you because it's not getting corrupted into a condition and killing you that way.

Ofcourse you're entitled to have your preferences as are we all but I happen to think you're horribly misguided on this one.

And why does WoD need nerfed first? The most OP things should be nerfed first, then you know where you stand. As for organized zergs I'll usually see around 2-3 in a group of 25 with a FB in each sub party and scourges making up the bulk of the zerg. I'm not sure who you're running with if you're seeing 5+ in a squad of 20+, most commanders I've been seeing have been asking for more FB's and Scourges. As for the last part simple logic tells me that having no boons is safer than having them turned against me and into conditions which adds more damage hitting me, and if you're arguing that you need stability to get out of issues a simple stun break usually does the trick (even ones without stability).

I think it was the most broken single skill in the game. I think boon denial is still broken but the decreased duration does make the skill a lot less oppressive so I'll take it.

The most OP things should be nerfed first, then you know where you stand.

I think WoD was the single most OP thing in the game since PoF launched. Scourge and FB are not OP because of any one skill it's a combination of things and the synergy they have with one another that makes them OP.

As for organized zergs I'll usually see around 2-3 in a group of 25 with a FB in each sub party and scourges making up the bulk of the zerg.

The meta comp was Guard, Rev, Scourge, Spellbreaker, whatever. People might start dropping Spellbreakers in favor of something else now I think it depends on what they're trying to do, my guild is still running them though.

I'm not sure who you're running with if you're seeing 5+ in a squad of 20+, most commanders I've been seeing have been asking for more FB's and Scourges.

Even before the nerf?

As for the last part simple logic tells me that having no boons is safer than having them turned against me and into conditions which adds more damage hitting me

Well the logic here is sound but I believe your assumptions are incorrect. Incorrect Assumption 1 is that scourges are running condi which hasn't been true since the dhuumfire nerf. Meta scourge is power now. Incorrect Assumption 2 is that converted condis can't either be cleared or resisted faster than they can be applied outside of a bubble, they easily can. Incorrect Assumption 3 is that boons cannot be reapplied faster than they can be stripped or corrupted outside of a bubble, which they can be.

and if you're arguing that you need stability to get out of issues a simple stun break usually does the trick (even ones without stability).

Single stun breaks by themselves were usually insufficient to survive a good bubble bomb in my experience. Usually it would take me multiple stun breaks and condi clears, at least one dodge sometimes two and possibly a mobile evade like Surge of the Mists to get out of even one good bubbled bomb.