I made quite a few changes to this page. Because of the (vigorous) controversy regarding Augustine, I have removed the appellation 'Church Father' since that label should be reserved for those 'theolgical writers' whose writings do not require careful examination (e.g. St John the Theologian, St
Gregory the Theologian, St John of Damascus, St John Chrysostom, St Photius the Great, St Simeon the New Theologian, St Gregory Palamas, etc.).

I expanded the passage on his feast day, explaining some of the controversy and changed the date from August 28 (from where did that come??) to June 15. Not only does June 15 match the GOA and OCA, it also matches the Wiki here! (August 28 did not.)

I cleaned up the Greek text. All those ampersands are hard to read!

I expanded the information on when Augustine's writings were translated into Greek (and removed the question mark in parentheses).

I added a category to the 'moderate views' on Augustine -- I felt there needed to be a reference to those who accept him as a saint but not as a Church Father.

I added another book by an Orthodox writer explicitly on Augustine. I believe it provides better balance.

Finally, I alphabetised the Bibliography and added another external link.

[2006.02.12 19:47]

Hi T.R. Thanks for your contributions and also the explanation of your changes. I put back in the "church father" part since it is commonly used for him, even by Orthodox folks (even Origen is referred to as a "Church Father" although not a Saint.) I'm not quite sure what the best way to preserve NPOV here. August 28th was the day of his death, or his birth into new life -- it is typically for this to be at least one of the feast days for a saint, although they may have others. I'm not sure why June 15th has precedence in the Eastern calendar. I put back the mention of Aug. 28th in a more qualified way. For the record (esp. for other readers), I generally find treatments such as Azkoul's very one-sided and not at all representative of "mainstream" Orthodoxy. Even so, I'm glad you added the book to the list. Thanks also for your work on the greek and on the bibliography. Finally, please sign your discussion posts by using three or four tildes. — FrJohn (talk).

IMO, applying the term 'Church Father' to Origen and Augustines renders the label worthless. Shouldn't the term be reserved for those who provide *solid* teaching? Of course, I recognise this is your Wiki and you can do what you think best. I just disagree with making the term 'Church Father' valueless by using it liberally.

I certainly agree that Fr. Michael Azkoul is one-sided (I also dislike his predilection for snide comments in his writing) -- but then I believe Fr. Seraphim Rose is equally one-sided the other way. I believe somewhere in between the two extremes lies the truth. (I do agree, however, with Fr. Michael's attitude regarding the term 'Church Father' -- see Who Is a Church Father?].

I've got a lot more information on Augustine, but will need time to dig it out. :-) Also, I think there should be an article (I'll volunteer if no one else is willing!) on the 'Western Captivity' and make it a link in this article.

On a personal note, I suspect we know a lot of the same people -- my parish is St Joseph in Wheaton. Finally, I'm not entirely certain how to use the tildes since I didn't have an example to copy. Let me know, please.

Hi again! I bet we do know a lot of people in common - maybe we'll get to meet in person someday! Trying to get beyond my own view of things (I tend to be more sympathetic with Augustine than many others), it seems to me that according to general usage, "church father" is a more liberal term than "saint" even - and is often used for people like Tertullian and Origen by Orthodox and Catholics alike. Maybe we could explain the dilemma of naming!

I think an article about the "western captivity" would be great. It's not simply a question of Jesuit influence though! And Greece, too, was heavily influenced by scholasticism. I think it's very possible to argue that this was a common mentality, East and West, corresponding to something of the "spirit of the age" rather than something distinctly Western that "invaded" the East. Similarly, the turn away from scholastic theology during the past century was not only, or even initially, an "Eastern" thing. One could say very convincingly that this movement began in the West and has progressed furthest in the West (among some of the better theologians). This change has permeated the work of many contemporary RC theologians, for example - one problem I have with Azkoul, Romanides and others is that when they talk about Catholic theology, it seems to me that they are talking to a large degree about a figment of their own imagination - or at least something that may have once existed but no longer does. Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Maybe others will want to chime in too! — FrJohn (talk)