daaswampman wrote:My best advice: be something worthwhile and maintain a solid relationship with your local Sheriff! The “Wild Card” is property rights and who determines them! Deeds are likely to be as valuable as currency. Swamp

Sounds like good advice. One of the reasons I’d be cautious about buying deeded or titled property if the SHTF, it’d be very difficult to confirm the seller was the owner (or even the sole owner) of the real estate or titled property. And even if they have title and sign it over for a fair price, the seller could argue they only agreed under duress after normalcy returns, assuming all private contracts made during the event weren’t just declared null and void afterwards. I think there may be some precedance for that occurring in past disasters, but too lazy to investigate at the moment.

MrDanB wrote:Since history repeats itself, it is wise to remember that the average Gov. Issued paper note lasts about 250 years. The debt ceiling issue is coming soon, gold and (especially) silver are heavily manipulated and many nations have been buying up metals in record quantities. We are in a currency war right now, and currency wars always lead to real wars. During the Weimar Republic crisis, a fistful of gold would have bought an entire city block of downtown Berlin. Many currencies have failed since then. We all see what’s going on in Venezuela right now. How far do you think metals will go during a full on currency crises? In Venezuela, today, a 1/10 Oz gold eagle will more than fill a freezer with meat. We pay roughly 140ish dollars for that same coin here in the US right now. Try filling your freezer with meat for 140 bucks! It’s all going to depend on how things play out. If it’s full on SHTF, then metals will be the last thing on my mind. But if we continue down the “slow burn” road that were on, then metals will go up in value. At some point, the manipulation of the paper value of metals will end. An excellent video explaining all of this is:https://youtu.be/iFDe5kUUyT0

Haven’t watched the vid yet, but Venezuela is a great example of a slow motion economic/political SHTF, and not too hard to imagine something similar in store for the US at some point. Like the frog in a slowly warmed pot of water, things just steadily get a little bit worse. I wonder how many Venezuelans wished they’d have packed up and left 5 years ago, and would love to do so now but just can’t afford to? Read a news article recently that obtaining a passport and travel permission in Venezuela requires bribing gov’t bureaucrats to get approved, so leaving isn’t an option for the poorer ones (now) who burned though their savings due to inflation over the years. In prepper parlance they didn’t bugout in time, and now they’re trapped.

Speaking of SHTF bribes, thought about mentioning them in my last post but it was getting long’ish enough already. It is worthy of discussion I think. Whether it’s bribing bureaucrats for an extra ration card, paying off the police/judge for some petty infraction enforced only as a means to generate revenue for the local government, or paying protection money to some criminal organization to leave you and your family/business alone. Still using Venezuela as an example, who (and how much) do you have to pay to keep you and your family members from getting ‘drafted’ into something like this?

I can imagine a lot of situations like this in any number of different severe SHTF scenarios. Government won’t just “go away” but instead turn corrupt. Call it corruption, serving the greater good, face-to-face local “tax” collection, or whatever you like, but I don’t see those in power giving it up willingly.

daaswampman wrote:My best advice: be something worthwhile and maintain a solid relationship with your local Sheriff! The “Wild Card” is property rights and who determines them! Deeds are likely to be as valuable as currency. Swamp

Sounds like good advice. One of the reasons I’d be cautious about buying deeded or titled property if the SHTF, it’d be very difficult to confirm the seller was the owner (or even the sole owner) of the real estate or titled property. And even if they have title and sign it over for a fair price, the seller could argue they only agreed under duress after normalcy returns, assuming all private contracts made during the event weren’t just declared null and void afterwards. I think there may be some precedance for that occurring in past disasters, but too lazy to investigate at the moment.

MrDanB wrote:Since history repeats itself, it is wise to remember that the average Gov. Issued paper note lasts about 250 years. The debt ceiling issue is coming soon, gold and (especially) silver are heavily manipulated and many nations have been buying up metals in record quantities. We are in a currency war right now, and currency wars always lead to real wars. During the Weimar Republic crisis, a fistful of gold would have bought an entire city block of downtown Berlin. Many currencies have failed since then. We all see what’s going on in Venezuela right now. How far do you think metals will go during a full on currency crises? In Venezuela, today, a 1/10 Oz gold eagle will more than fill a freezer with meat. We pay roughly 140ish dollars for that same coin here in the US right now. Try filling your freezer with meat for 140 bucks! It’s all going to depend on how things play out. If it’s full on SHTF, then metals will be the last thing on my mind. But if we continue down the “slow burn” road that were on, then metals will go up in value. At some point, the manipulation of the paper value of metals will end. An excellent video explaining all of this is:https://youtu.be/iFDe5kUUyT0

Haven’t watched the vid yet, but Venezuela is a great example of a slow motion economic/political SHTF, and not too hard to imagine something similar in store for the US at some point. Like the frog in a slowly warmed pot of water, things just steadily get a little bit worse. I wonder how many Venezuelans wished they’d have packed up and left 5 years ago, and would love to do so now but just can’t afford to? Read a news article recently that obtaining a passport and travel permission in Venezuela requires bribing gov’t bureaucrats to get approved, so leaving isn’t an option for the poorer ones (now) who burned though their savings due to inflation over the years. In prepper parlance they didn’t bugout in time, and now they’re trapped.

Speaking of SHTF bribes, thought about mentioning them in my last post but it was getting long’ish enough already. It is worthy of discussion I think. Whether it’s bribing bureaucrats for an extra ration card, paying off the police/judge for some petty infraction enforced only as a means to generate revenue for the local government, or paying protection money to some criminal organization to leave you and your family/business alone. Still using Venezuela as an example, who (and how much) do you have to pay to keep you and your family members from getting ‘drafted’ into something like this?

I can imagine a lot of situations like this in any number of different severe SHTF scenarios. Government won’t just “go away” but instead turn corrupt. Call it corruption, serving the greater good, face-to-face local “tax” collection, or whatever you like, but I don’t see those in power giving it up willingly.

daaswampman wrote:Your links make a wonderful argument for owning precious metals in small units! Swamp

Divisibility being one of the requirements for real money, people (and governments) have been cutting PM coins for millennia. Unlike eggs, a shotshell, or Federal Reserve Notes, dividing a PM bullion coin into pieces doesn’t destroy its value. Each piece retains its same fractional value as the whole. Fiat currency is not money, try tearing a $1 FRN in half see if you can get .50 for each piece

Beyond just descriptions of the different types of exchanges and markets that would develop, the use of money (and where it’s used and not used) for each is discussed too. The almost interchangeable way the authors use the terms “money”, “cash”, and “currency” might frustrate any goldbugs here, but the Keynesians probably won’t even notice at all.

It’s a long, mostly boring, read – But my take away from it, in short, is that barter will dominate at the subsistence and peasant marketplace levels. This is “hand-to-mouth” existence level exchanges mostly, a small amount of surplus salt exchanged for a small amount of surplus fish/meat. A few rifle cartridges exchanged for shoe repair. A days worth of food for 8 hours of unskilled labor. Preppers may not need to operate in these exchanges/markets much in the early SHTF days since we’ll likely be living off stored goods or growing/producing much of them ourselves, but these will be important as the first markets that develop and form the basis for the larger ones to come. Establishing some level of trust with other buyers and sellers through these small exchanges in the early days might be beneficial later.

But the further you get away from subsistence level bartering and start dealing in larger and more diverse markets, then that’s where “money” will dominate. The study uses the term “lumpy goods” to describe these types of transactions, “lumpy” not just meaning large or bulky (like housing, or livestock), but also for things like medical care (imagine purchasing an appendectomy, where you’re trying to procure a surgeon, nurse, maybe an anesthesiologist, and all the necessary supplies – and purchase it as a single transaction). Lumpy would also include services such as transport/shipping, like hiring cowboys (Old West style) to drive those livestock you purchased to your door from 3 counties away – or contracting a rail train owner/operator with a working steam engine and a cattle car. This is where you want and need PMs, because they have always been money.

Oh, and lest anything think the study is just a politically correct and academic discussion with little real SHTF worth and skip it, things like criminal markets, militias, survivalists, warlords, and assassination services are mentioned too.

daaswampman wrote:Your links make a wonderful argument for owning precious metals in small units! Swamp

Divisibility being one of the requirements for real money, people (and governments) have been cutting PM coins for millennia. Unlike eggs, a shotshell, or Federal Reserve Notes, dividing a PM bullion coin into pieces doesn’t destroy its value. Each piece retains its same fractional value as the whole. Fiat currency is not money, try tearing a $1 FRN in half see if you can get .50 for each piece

Beyond just descriptions of the different types of exchanges and markets that would develop, the use of money (and where it’s used and not used) for each is discussed too. The almost interchangeable way the authors use the terms “money”, “cash”, and “currency” might frustrate any goldbugs here, but the Keynesians probably won’t even notice at all.

It’s a long, mostly boring, read – But my take away from it, in short, is that barter will dominate at the subsistence and peasant marketplace levels. This is “hand-to-mouth” existence level exchanges mostly, a small amount of surplus salt exchanged for a small amount of surplus fish/meat. A few rifle cartridges exchanged for shoe repair. A days worth of food for 8 hours of unskilled labor. Preppers may not need to operate in these exchanges/markets much in the early SHTF days since we’ll likely be living off stored goods or growing/producing much of them ourselves, but these will be important as the first markets that develop and form the basis for the larger ones to come. Establishing some level of trust with other buyers and sellers through these small exchanges in the early days might be beneficial later.

But the further you get away from subsistence level bartering and start dealing in larger and more diverse markets, then that’s where “money” will dominate. The study uses the term “lumpy goods” to describe these types of transactions, “lumpy” not just meaning large or bulky (like housing, or livestock), but also for things like medical care (imagine purchasing an appendectomy, where you’re trying to procure a surgeon, nurse, maybe an anesthesiologist, and all the necessary supplies – and purchase it as a single transaction). Lumpy would also include services such as transport/shipping, like hiring cowboys (Old West style) to drive those livestock you purchased to your door from 3 counties away – or contracting a rail train owner/operator with a working steam engine and a cattle car. This is where you want and need PMs, because they have always been money.

Oh, and lest anything think the study is just a politically correct and academic discussion with little real SHTF worth and skip it, things like criminal markets, militias, survivalists, warlords, and assassination services are mentioned too.

Years ago anyway, many accountants and financial planners recommended holding 5% of your net worth in PMs. I moved about 10% of mine into PMs 16 years back, and in hindsight it was a good financial decision – or has been so far anyway.

The US Dollar being the world’s reserve currency today creates demand for them which artificially increases their value. When the USD loses it’s reserve currency status those dollars will come flooding back to our country as other countries sell our dollar to buy whatever the new reserve currency is. An overabundance (supply) of US Dollars combined with less demand for them means their value will fall, that’s economics 101. From a historical perspective, the USD likely won’t remain as the reserve currency too much longer.

Whether or not there’s a change in reserve currencies in your lifetime is anyone’s guess, but if it does happen you’ll be thankful that you bought PMs.

Gold is the standard that fiat money is compared against, I think a lot of people don’t grasp that fact. The value of gold doesn’t change, it’s the value of paper / fiat money that does. If the Fed/Treasury doubled the dollar supply tonight, gold would instantly jump to twice the current price. That doesn’t mean gold is worth more, it just means each dollar is worth less. Gold (and silver) has had roughly the same purchasing power in terms of the goods/services it will buy as it has always had for thousands of years. Sure it varies some, but over the long term it averages out. Just using very recent modern times as an example, a loaf of bread in the early 1960’s was about .22 cents, or about 2 silver dimes. Those same two 90% silver dimes today have a value of about $2.40, which is still about a loaf of bread in today’s money.

As for moving PMs, a standard 20 coin tube of 1 oz Gold Eagles weighs about 1.4 pounds and will buy a little over $25,000 USDs today.

Not too bad in terms of weight and size, and a lot easier to carry than $25,000 worth of rice or ammo anyway. If that coin roll melts and rehardens into a golden blob in a house fire (unlikely), it’s still worth $25k in USD, minus a small assaying cost.

Years ago anyway, many accountants and financial planners recommended holding 5% of your net worth in PMs. I moved about 10% of mine into PMs 16 years back, and in hindsight it was a good financial decision – or has been so far anyway.

The US Dollar being the world’s reserve currency today creates demand for them which artificially increases their value. When the USD loses it’s reserve currency status those dollars will come flooding back to our country as other countries sell our dollar to buy whatever the new reserve currency is. An overabundance (supply) of US Dollars combined with less demand for them means their value will fall, that’s economics 101. From a historical perspective, the USD likely won’t remain as the reserve currency too much longer.

Whether or not there’s a change in reserve currencies in your lifetime is anyone’s guess, but if it does happen you’ll be thankful that you bought PMs.

Gold is the standard that fiat money is compared against, I think a lot of people don’t grasp that fact. The value of gold doesn’t change, it’s the value of paper / fiat money that does. If the Fed/Treasury doubled the dollar supply tonight, gold would instantly jump to twice the current price. That doesn’t mean gold is worth more, it just means each dollar is worth less. Gold (and silver) has had roughly the same purchasing power in terms of the goods/services it will buy as it has always had for thousands of years. Sure it varies some, but over the long term it averages out. Just using very recent modern times as an example, a loaf of bread in the early 1960’s was about .22 cents, or about 2 silver dimes. Those same two 90% silver dimes today have a value of about $2.40, which is still about a loaf of bread in today’s money.

As for moving PMs, a standard 20 coin tube of 1 oz Gold Eagles weighs about 1.4 pounds and will buy a little over $25,000 USDs today.

Not too bad in terms of weight and size, and a lot easier to carry than $25,000 worth of rice or ammo anyway. If that coin roll melts and rehardens into a golden blob in a house fire (unlikely), it’s still worth $25k in USD, minus a small assaying cost.

Years ago anyway, many accountants and financial planners recommended holding 5% of your net worth in PMs. I moved about 10% of mine into PMs 16 years back, and in hindsight it was a good financial decision – or has been so far anyway.

The US Dollar being the world’s reserve currency today creates demand for them which artificially increases their value. When the USD loses it’s reserve currency status those dollars will come flooding back to our country as other countries sell our dollar to buy whatever the new reserve currency is. An overabundance (supply) of US Dollars combined with less demand for them means their value will fall, that’s economics 101. From a historical perspective, the USD likely won’t remain as the reserve currency too much longer.

Whether or not there’s a change in reserve currencies in your lifetime is anyone’s guess, but if it does happen you’ll be thankful that you bought PMs.

Gold is the standard that fiat money is compared against, I think a lot of people don’t grasp that fact. The value of gold doesn’t change, it’s the value of paper / fiat money that does. If the Fed/Treasury doubled the dollar supply tonight, gold would instantly jump to twice the current price. That doesn’t mean gold is worth more, it just means each dollar is worth less. Gold (and silver) has had roughly the same purchasing power in terms of the goods/services it will buy as it has always had for thousands of years. Sure it varies some, but over the long term it averages out. Just using very recent modern times as an example, a loaf of bread in the early 1960’s was about .22 cents, or about 2 silver dimes. Those same two 90% silver dimes today have a value of about $2.40, which is still about a loaf of bread in today’s money.

As for moving PMs, a standard 20 coin tube of 1 oz Gold Eagles weighs about 1.4 pounds and will buy a little over $25,000 USDs today.

Not too bad in terms of weight and size, and a lot easier to carry than $25,000 worth of rice or ammo anyway. If that coin roll melts and rehardens into a golden blob in a house fire (unlikely), it’s still worth $25k in USD, minus a small assaying cost.

Years ago anyway, many accountants and financial planners recommended holding 5% of your net worth in PMs. I moved about 10% of mine into PMs 16 years back, and in hindsight it was a good financial decision – or has been so far anyway.

The US Dollar being the world’s reserve currency today creates demand for them which artificially increases their value. When the USD loses it’s reserve currency status those dollars will come flooding back to our country as other countries sell our dollar to buy whatever the new reserve currency is. An overabundance (supply) of US Dollars combined with less demand for them means their value will fall, that’s economics 101. From a historical perspective, the USD likely won’t remain as the reserve currency too much longer.

Whether or not there’s a change in reserve currencies in your lifetime is anyone’s guess, but if it does happen you’ll be thankful that you bought PMs.

Gold is the standard that fiat money is compared against, I think a lot of people don’t grasp that fact. The value of gold doesn’t change, it’s the value of paper / fiat money that does. If the Fed/Treasury doubled the dollar supply tonight, gold would instantly jump to twice the current price. That doesn’t mean gold is worth more, it just means each dollar is worth less. Gold (and silver) has had roughly the same purchasing power in terms of the goods/services it will buy as it has always had for thousands of years. Sure it varies some, but over the long term it averages out. Just using very recent modern times as an example, a loaf of bread in the early 1960’s was about .22 cents, or about 2 silver dimes. Those same two 90% silver dimes today have a value of about $2.40, which is still about a loaf of bread in today’s money.

As for moving PMs, a standard 20 coin tube of 1 oz Gold Eagles weighs about 1.4 pounds and will buy a little over $25,000 USDs today.

Not too bad in terms of weight and size, and a lot easier to carry than $25,000 worth of rice or ammo anyway. If that coin roll melts and rehardens into a golden blob in a house fire (unlikely), it’s still worth $25k in USD, minus a small assaying cost.

Just had to login and comment since this thread has two of my favorite prepper fallacies, 1) “People with money are stupid and will be the first to die”, and 2) “If the SHTF I’ll just steal what I need”.

The former often heard from posters having self-professed financial difficulties. I don’t want to pour salt on that wound, but if you’re having difficulty surviving in times of plenty then a disaster isn’t going to improve your odds. It may be fun to fantasize about those lazy, unprepared, undeserving, affluent people ending up at the bottom of the pecking order before they die of starvation because no one will take their gold or Cadillacs in exchange for a loaf of bread, but that’s not reality. The single biggest factor on who survives disasters is wealth, poor people die in much greater numbers.

On the latter, the law protects criminals as much (or more) than it protects the law abiding in civilized society. As much as I’d like to beat the living S out of shoplifters and thieves, I can’t today without likely getting arrested for assault and then sued by the perp in civil court. The law protects the criminals. It’s for this same reason I have sirens on the burglar alarms in my homes and outbuildings, because today I just want to scare off thieves – not risk a confrontation that results in injury and possible legal and financial consequences. Today I’ll just call the police and file an insurance claim if needed. In a WROL situation that changes, the sirens will be turned off so it’s just a silent alarm. I’ve given considerable thought to, and made preparations for, how to deal with looters and thieves in a SHTF/WROL environment, including how to ensure my actions appear justified (in case there might be some doubt, as mistakes could happen) once the rule of law is restored. No “shovel and shutup” here most likely, just roll the bodies up in a tarp, spray-paint “armed looter” on them, and dump them in a ditch at a nearby intersection. Should help cut down on the crime rate in our area, and if or when questioned by the authorities on what happened later, they’ll just be one story told, mine, and I have it memorized already.

On the question of BOLs, imo it’s only those that can’t afford one that don’t see the need for one. Would you want only one firearm? One vehicle? One first aid kit? Why would having one house be any different? If you’re an avid all-weather camper, then OK. Have a cousin like that, he doesn’t self-identify as a prepper (self-identifying being the only requirement to be a “prepper” I guess), but spends at least a week each year tent camping in a national forest while deer hunting in northern Michigan in November. People with that kind of experience might pull it off, the risk of failure and death (or just a very miserable existence) seems pretty high otherwise.

Decided to beat the rush and headed for the hills a decade ago. If we had to bugout deeper, or back to the The City, the major pieces of our bugout perimeter security kit.

Dakota Alerts, HTs, a combo motion sensor and contact (door/window/tripwire) switch alarm, monofilament line, and eye bolts. Dogs not shown. Picked up a 6-pack of those motion sensor/contact alarms cheap pre-Y2k, they’re pretty versatile but not really weather resistant. The Dakota Alerts with the stock antennas have a range of about 3/4 of a mile to a HT on flat ground through the woods, handy for monitoring a trail or the approach to your camp, or for hunting.

Decided to beat the rush and headed for the hills a decade ago. If we had to bugout deeper, or back to the The City, the major pieces of our bugout perimeter security kit.

Dakota Alerts, HTs, a combo motion sensor and contact (door/window/tripwire) switch alarm, monofilament line, and eye bolts. Dogs not shown. Picked up a 6-pack of those motion sensor/contact alarms cheap pre-Y2k, they’re pretty versatile but not really weather resistant. The Dakota Alerts with the stock antennas have a range of about 3/4 of a mile to a HT on flat ground through the woods, handy for monitoring a trail or the approach to your camp, or for hunting.

Since you post your identity in your signature I spent a couple minutes looking at your locale, area demographics, and home details. Our situations could hardly be more opposite. Like Gunns, my home stands out although you have to view it from satellite images since it’s not visible from the road (or even from my gate). You’re in a metro area of over 2 million people, my home is over 150 miles away from a city that large. Your population density is about 1,300 per sq mile, my county has less than 20 per sq mile and I know for a fact there’s only 4 people in the sq mile around us. You have a 1/3 acre lot in a subdivision about 50′ from the road, we have 10 acres (two acres fenced/gated) and bordered by public land on three sides with a 200 yard driveway. Not to suggest either situation is better in all scenarios, just highlighting the differences and why “the gray home” isn’t always the right answer.

I suppose what I really don’t get however, particularly in regards to this post, is why you tell everyone who you are, where you live, details of your preparedness situation, what your plans are, and sometimes even when you’ll be away from home – but also that you want to go unnoticed as the gray man living in the gray house. Not trying to argue or insult, just seems to me you give out way too much information publicly if that’s your plan. You’ve left an online trail of bread loaves leading right to your door Preppers usually have an abundance of nice firearms and cash/PMs stashed away at least, and from your latest “Who will be your Doctor” post it’s not hard to guess you probably have a nice assortment of prescription drugs too, right? Aren’t you at least concerned someone might use this information to plan a burglary (or worse) of your home now?

The lists are built as needed. Data from myriad sources can be queried to look for individuals that match the particular profile being searched for, even trying to predict future behavior based on past behavior.

The FCC license database is just another data source. An amateur radio license by itself is just a single data point, but add “Costco membership” + “NICS firearm check in the last two years” + “TEOTWAWKI related books in Amazon wishlist” and maybe you’d end up on a likely prepper list if they wanted to build one. Forum membership and what you like/follow on social media being other data sources. That my name might show up on a gov’t list of “preppers, >90% confidence” doesn’t bother me personally, that I’d be targeted by the gov’t based on matching that profile seems pretty unlikely. That said, I chose not to have a ham license because I prefer not to have my home and BOL on someone’s list of “fixed, private radio transmitter sites”. Remember it’s not just our gov’t that builds lists, foreign gov’ts and individuals can ‘mine’ the available data as well. If you wanted to build a list of likely preppers in your area then searching the FCC database for licensees in your zip code might be a good place to start for example. I’m more concerned with nearby neighbors associating me with preppers than the gov’t personally.

To each his own. I’d just suggest caution if you want to make your identity and location known in a public forum; stating you own firearms, gold/silver, and will be away from home on the weekend of June 16th (A.N.T.S. camp) might be interesting to someone.

The lists are built as needed. Data from myriad sources can be queried to look for individuals that match the particular profile being searched for, even trying to predict future behavior based on past behavior.

The FCC license database is just another data source. An amateur radio license by itself is just a single data point, but add “Costco membership” + “NICS firearm check in the last two years” + “TEOTWAWKI related books in Amazon wishlist” and maybe you’d end up on a likely prepper list if they wanted to build one. Forum membership and what you like/follow on social media being other data sources. That my name might show up on a gov’t list of “preppers, >90% confidence” doesn’t bother me personally, that I’d be targeted by the gov’t based on matching that profile seems pretty unlikely. That said, I chose not to have a ham license because I prefer not to have my home and BOL on someone’s list of “fixed, private radio transmitter sites”. Remember it’s not just our gov’t that builds lists, foreign gov’ts and individuals can ‘mine’ the available data as well. If you wanted to build a list of likely preppers in your area then searching the FCC database for licensees in your zip code might be a good place to start for example. I’m more concerned with nearby neighbors associating me with preppers than the gov’t personally.

To each his own. I’d just suggest caution if you want to make your identity and location known in a public forum; stating you own firearms, gold/silver, and will be away from home on the weekend of June 16th (A.N.T.S. camp) might be interesting to someone.

List it with a survival realtor, there’s at least a couple realty companies that specialize in survival properties. JW,R’s son runs one currently and Joel Skousen had/has one IIRC. It’s a niche market for sure, normal realtors/appraisers/lenders don’t ascribe survival upgrades as having much, if any, extra value. A realtor that specializes in survival properties can help appraise it, and you might recoup their fees and commission plus more by finding a buyer looking to purchase a turnkey survival home.

“The Sanford Guide to Antimicrobial Therapy” is one of the bibles on the subject, but it’s less helpful if you aren’t certain of the exact bacteria and only have the half dozen or so usual aquarium antibiotics available. The Merck Manual, even an older version, would be a good reference if you’re familiar with medical terminology, else get a good medical dictionary to go along with it (and be prepared to read the dictionary as much as the manual). The problem I have with the PDR is that, while it describes each drug in great detail, it’s not such a good ref on where or how to use them. Knowing Keflex has activity against some strains of Staph A. by itself for example isn’t very helpful – there’s little to no info on diseases likely to be caused by Staph A. infections, dosages, or length of treatment. It’s all about the drug, nothing on infections or treatment.

Might try a search using terms like “empirical”, “guidelines”, and “initial selection” along with “antibiotics” to find books a general practitioner in a clinic might use, those are the ones I find the most helpful anyway. Or as others have said, Dr. Bones, Dr Hubbard (the survival doctor), or Doc Cindy (armageddon medicine) all have books with recommendations on antibiotic selection, and with a focus on the ones usually available for fish/birds. A doctor writing under the pseudonym “Militant Medic” wrote a good multipart article at survivalblog a couple years ago too, including a concise 2 page pdf of the most common infections, with primary and alternate antibiotic recommendations with only the commonly available aquarium antibiotics.

“The Sanford Guide to Antimicrobial Therapy” is one of the bibles on the subject, but it’s less helpful if you aren’t certain of the exact bacteria and only have the half dozen or so usual aquarium antibiotics available. The Merck Manual, even an older version, would be a good reference if you’re familiar with medical terminology, else get a good medical dictionary to go along with it (and be prepared to read the dictionary as much as the manual). The problem I have with the PDR is that, while it describes each drug in great detail, it’s not such a good ref on where or how to use them. Knowing Keflex has activity against some strains of Staph A. by itself for example isn’t very helpful – there’s little to no info on diseases likely to be caused by Staph A. infections, dosages, or length of treatment. It’s all about the drug, nothing on infections or treatment.

Might try a search using terms like “empirical”, “guidelines”, and “initial selection” along with “antibiotics” to find books a general practitioner in a clinic might use, those are the ones I find the most helpful anyway. Or as others have said, Dr. Bones, Dr Hubbard (the survival doctor), or Doc Cindy (armageddon medicine) all have books with recommendations on antibiotic selection, and with a focus on the ones usually available for fish/birds. A doctor writing under the pseudonym “Militant Medic” wrote a good multipart article at survivalblog a couple years ago too, including a concise 2 page pdf of the most common infections, with primary and alternate antibiotic recommendations with only the commonly available aquarium antibiotics.

Didn’t realize the Koreans had that level of organization either Dirk. None of the stories I read about them went into that much detail, just that they banded together to protect their businesses and the pics of them on the rooftop. Any suggested reading to get more details?

On the mission planning I mentioned I’d just clarify it’s more than just the logistics but a complete plan I’d like to see them lay out. A large part of being prepared is the pre-planning after all, but I never see a hypothetical scavenging mission discussed with the same level of detail that would goes into, say, home defense planning.

What’s the optimum number for a scavenging team? What role will each member take? Daytime or nighttime? Announce your presence and intent (yelling, honking, white flag) first? Hit hard, fast, and get out quick like a bank robbery, or more like a cat burglar relying on stealth and taking more time for a thorough search? What’s the loadout/gear for each person – weapon(s), crowbar, bolt cutters, lockpicks, loot bags, flashlights, etc? What’s the plan if the team surprises or is surprised by people hidden inside, or if another group approaches from the outside – fight, flight, surrender if ordered to do so? Any instructions for those remaining back at the home/base in the event the team doesn’t return? Those just for starters…

As Cast Iron mentioned, it’s like a lot of people think they’ll have a crystal ball or a complete set of facts going into every possible situation. Who’s more dangerous, a career criminal out looting for profit or a parent with a hungry child? Unlike the old westerns the bad guys won’t always be wearing black hats either. Illini Warrior’s take on it is basically my thoughts as well, and not to single you out Photon Guy, but if you’ve considered and planned for a scenario where you might need to scavenge to get home then would like to hear your thoughts especially.

Just once when this topic comes up I’d like to see some specifics on how they intend to execute these looting/scavenging operations. Not just a list of the business’ that have all the wonderful stuff they apparently don’t see the need to buy now, but details on how they intend to achieve the objective and get back to their base with the goods. The SMEAC of the mission.

If they did lay out the details I think we’d find one of two things, either it’s nothing more than a “what would you buy if you had a million dollars” type fantasy or they’re the marauders/looters we’re all preparing for (including the prepper business owners).

Just once when this topic comes up I’d like to see some specifics on how they intend to execute these looting/scavenging operations. Not just a list of the business’ that have all the wonderful stuff they apparently don’t see the need to buy now, but details on how they intend to achieve the objective and get back to their base with the goods. The SMEAC of the mission.

If they did lay out the details I think we’d find one of two things, either it’s nothing more than a “what would you buy if you had a million dollars” type fantasy or they’re the marauders/looters we’re all preparing for (including the prepper business owners).

MoosePath wrote:Reading another article, the drug praziquantel which is used for intestinal infections and worms I found is available from Vet Suppliers. Google the drug name and there are all kinds of articles about it’s uses and side effects. But since it is available from Vet suppliers without a prescription it might be a good thing to add to your preps.

Sold, or used to be anyway, as Fish-Tapes by Thomas Labs too. Used it for round worm infection twice in our last dog (who never found anything lying dead in the woods that wasn’t still good enough to try eating). Speaking of which, I need to check the purchase date on that fish-tapes bottle… Mebendazole, metronidazole, and permethrin cream (10%) in the pharmacy as well. Public shelters, road kill cuisine, dumpster diving, incomplete water purification – parasitic infections may be common following a major disaster.

I do not understand all those exclamation points Swamp. I’ve advised against making an anesthetic, recommended learning to treat more common ailments painlessly first, and only suggested general anesthesia in layman’s hands as an option to relieve suffering for the dying at the end of the world. What I have been suggesting, and I do follow my own advice, is that you may want to have the tools that the talented might need to save your a$$. I’m not going to pay the inflated rates for drugs in short supply during a disaster if I can acquire them inexpensively now. If you don’t see a need for anesthetics in a disaster/collapse, then don’t get any Swamp. I am sorry you’ve seen such tragedies, each is worthy of it’s own thread so we all might learn something from them?

But back on topic, and more basic, local anesthesia might be a better place to start putting a few dollars now. It’s not just good for local infiltration for suturing or ingrown toenails, in the right hands it can be used for nerve or Bier blocks, or epidurals, to anesthetize much larger areas for more invasive procedures. Lidocaine is good and relatively easy to acquire without a scrip, for longer term storage you can get it in powder form which has a longer shelf life than the liquid. Unless it’s going to be strictly for local infiltration you probably don’t want the kind with epinephrine in it. Stock the extra items they’ll most likely need, sterile syringes, needles (small, 20-23 gauge), and gloves at least. If going with the powdered lidocaine variety then the prefilled saline flush syringes would be a good idea, for dissolving the powder in. The prepacked and sterile laceration trays might be good too, even if it’s not a laceration being treated (~$10 and up, get the ones that include sterile gloves imo).

Regarding the professionals that avoid threads like this, maybe they’d be able to suggest what they’d hope a patient would bring with them if they were open for business but running low on supplies at the EOTW?

Murby wrote:Well folks, it looks like my anesthesia problem has been solved!

In a word “Ether”… yup.. it is that simple and its something the average person can purchase. Its also safe, well… safe in relative context. its easy to use and from what I can tell, seems to be the type of drug that allows one to select the level of sedation.

While I will be purchasing a small supply of it, I also learned its not even that difficult to make if one has access to a grade school level chemistry set.. (which I do).. and I’ve downloaded the instructions and a video on the procedure to manufacture it.

I’m not an expert on it obviously and still have much research to do.. but from what I can tell, I can buy a 500ml bottle for $50 that is enough to completely anesthetize at least 20 to 30 times….

That’s what I chose, it’s the old school standard and no legal issues. You have more lab knowledge than me, I wouldn’t feel confident trying to produce it – some minor pharmaceutical compounding (and some pyrotechnics) are my only experience since high school chemistry. Be careful what ever you do, personally I wouldn’t use it (except as mentioned above) unless at the EOTW and the situation so bad that there was no penalty for surgical failure.

Could always consult a medical dictionary Won’t argue with someone’s personal feelings or religious beliefs daaswampman, if it’s wrong for you then it’s wrong.

Back on topic, the Anesthesia and Perioperative Care of the Combat Casualty details the different types of anesthesia in use today. Chapter 31 is the history of military anesthesia (or lack thereof). Chapter 7 is a detailed description of military anesthesia machines, including the UNIVERSAL PORTABLE ANESTHESIA CIRCUIT (PAC) which is a vaporizer/”draw over” anesthesia device for administering liquid anesthestics that doesn’t require supplemental oxygen. It has built in settings for use with diethyl ether, enflurane, halothane, and isoflurane. A significant improvement over open drop administration, and about as simple and portable as an anesthesia machine can be done (short of “bottle and rag” anyway). Following a collapse, and after the IV anesthetic agents are exhausted, seems reasonable this or it’s improvised analogues might be the standard both because of simplicity and the relative ease that ether can be produced in a lab. Military level 2 med units (the lowest level where emergency surgery can be performed) use these PACs, so you’d be likely to see them in any significant disaster where the military was sent to assist. Plan accordingly.

In medicine, specifically in end-of-life care, palliative sedation (also known as terminal sedation, continuous deep sedation, or sedation for intractable distress in the dying/of a dying patient) is the palliative practice of relieving distress in a terminally ill person in the last hours or days of a dying patient’s life, usually by means of a continuous intravenous or subcutaneous infusion of a sedative drug, or by means of a specialized catheter designed to provide comfortable and discreet administration of ongoing medications via the rectal route. Palliative sedation is an option of last resort for patients whose symptoms cannot be controlled by any other means. It is not a form of euthanasia, as the goal of palliative sedation is to control symptoms, rather than to shorten the patient’s life.

From the wiki just so we’re on the same page. Terminal sedation is not euthanasia.

Leaving her daughter’s side, Yamila went on a frantic search for medical supplies so basic that no hospital — let alone one of the country’s largest teaching hospitals — should ever run out of them. But none of the hospitals or pharmacies she visited had them in stock. In the end, despite concerns about the quality of the supplies, and unsure whether she had the correct catheters and needles for a newborn, Yamila had no option but to buy whatever she could find on the black market — with no quality guarantees.

Venezuela’s health care system, long a source of pride for the government, is in deep crisis. Thousands of patients cannot get essential medical treatments, and thousands more have been wait-listed for potentially life-saving surgery because doctors don’t have the materials they need to operate.

The photographer had just returned from one of his latest trips to the South American nation when he talked to TIME, and he was visibly affected by the chaos he had witnessed there. “There’s a complete collapse of society,” he said.

Once an example for the continent, Venezuela is now a country in freefall. “It’s hard to find food, there’s no medicine,” said Ybarra Zavala. “If you have to have surgery, you need to bring everything with you: the bandages, the gloves, everything. There are no anesthetics.”

Caracas, Venezuela – At Caracas University Hospital (HUC), the shortage of medical supplies is beyond painful.

Dozens of patients here have been waiting for months to undergo surgery as their health continues to deteriorate. In many cases, their lives are at risk and they are asked to bring their own medical supplies. Doctors say they want to help but can’t.

A physician who asked to remain anonymous told Fox News Latino this week that they are only performing emergency operations at this time due to the acute shortage of the most basic supplies and instruments at the state-run facility.

“We don’t even have stitching material, gauze pads or medical solution and most of the equipment for anesthesia is broken,” he said. “If the patient brings everything, we try to operate.”

Don’t think anyone would classify the Venezuelan crisis as an end-of-the-world situation, yet there’s the reality of medical care in Venezuela today. Plan accordingly. I completely agree on insurance, particularly in a collapse. Bring money (cash, gold, or lots of silver). You’ll need it to get to the front of the line, and to bribe, I mean show your appreciation, to the doctors, nurses, and orderlies for the best care possible.

The scenario/pics at the end of my last post was meant in the context of humane terminal sedation (palliative end-of-life) in an EOTW situation, not as part of first-aid care. i.e., “Relax Son, we need to sedate you so we can get you out of there. Just breathe normally and you’ll be waking up in your bed before you know it”, even though you know that’s probably not going to be the case. Just clarifying that as it may not have been clear the way I stated it earlier. It’s just an option some may want to consider, although diethyl ether wouldn’t be my first choice of an agent.

MoosePath wrote:I’ve been reading this thread and I thought I would add my 2 cents for what it is worth. While I have no desire to make any anesthesia (heck I can hardly spell it). I have to say that if we are in a total collapse/grid down situation with out hospitals and doctors a phone call away I do not see a problem with people trying to find a way to put someone under.

Ether was used for anesthesia for over 100 years, it was the standard up to the 1960’s. It’s been suggested it still has its uses.

Diethyl ether anesthesia deserves to be reconsidered for widespread use in the developing world. In countries that lack the resources to fund anesthesiology development, ether could greatly improve the safety and economics of anesthesia practices.

Developing nations rarely have the personnel and equipment to provide safe anesthesia. Anesthesia is most commonly delivered by non-physicians who have little or no formal training. Cardiac monitors, pulse-oximeters, supplemental oxygen and endotracheal intubation are rarely available, and anesthesia is delivered using drawover techniques. Halothane, the most common inhalation anesthetic in the developing world, is a potent agent and, without monitoring equipment and trained providers, can lead to significant patient morbidity and mortality. Ether, on the other hand is nontoxic to the cardiovascular system and it does not depress respiratory activity. It is safe to use by anesthetists who have not received formal training and without complicated monitoring, supplemental oxygen and endotracheal intubation. Ether has the added benefit of providing surgical analgesia. In areas where resources are scarce, patients are often not given supplemental intraoperative analgesia. While halothane provides little analgesia, ether provides excellent intra-operative pain control that can extend for several hours into the postoperative period.

It’s not without it’s problems, extremely flammable, forms explosive peroxides if not stored properly, nausea/vomiting are common afterwards. It’s still the reference used in medical school to teach the stages of anesthesia, so while it may not be used anymore every doctor knows how it works and how it’s administered. Along the same lines as taking your own sterile syringes/IV catheters if travelling to developing countries in case you require medical care while there, or storing antibiotics in the event the one your doctor prescribes isn’t available, some might wish to have ether in the event there is a doctor available but he doesn’t have a better anesthestic.

And as already mentioned, there’s always the possibility of something like this at the EOTW…

MoosePath wrote:I’ve been reading this thread and I thought I would add my 2 cents for what it is worth. While I have no desire to make any anesthesia (heck I can hardly spell it). I have to say that if we are in a total collapse/grid down situation with out hospitals and doctors a phone call away I do not see a problem with people trying to find a way to put someone under.

Ether was used for anesthesia for over 100 years, it was the standard up to the 1960’s. It’s been suggested it still has its uses.

Diethyl ether anesthesia deserves to be reconsidered for widespread use in the developing world. In countries that lack the resources to fund anesthesiology development, ether could greatly improve the safety and economics of anesthesia practices.

Developing nations rarely have the personnel and equipment to provide safe anesthesia. Anesthesia is most commonly delivered by non-physicians who have little or no formal training. Cardiac monitors, pulse-oximeters, supplemental oxygen and endotracheal intubation are rarely available, and anesthesia is delivered using drawover techniques. Halothane, the most common inhalation anesthetic in the developing world, is a potent agent and, without monitoring equipment and trained providers, can lead to significant patient morbidity and mortality. Ether, on the other hand is nontoxic to the cardiovascular system and it does not depress respiratory activity. It is safe to use by anesthetists who have not received formal training and without complicated monitoring, supplemental oxygen and endotracheal intubation. Ether has the added benefit of providing surgical analgesia. In areas where resources are scarce, patients are often not given supplemental intraoperative analgesia. While halothane provides little analgesia, ether provides excellent intra-operative pain control that can extend for several hours into the postoperative period.

It’s not without it’s problems, extremely flammable, forms explosive peroxides if not stored properly, nausea/vomiting are common afterwards. It’s still the reference used in medical school to teach the stages of anesthesia, so while it may not be used anymore every doctor knows how it works and how it’s administered. Along the same lines as taking your own sterile syringes/IV catheters if travelling to developing countries in case you require medical care while there, or storing antibiotics in the event the one your doctor prescribes isn’t available, some might wish to have ether in the event there is a doctor available but he doesn’t have a better anesthestic.

And as already mentioned, there’s always the possibility of something like this at the EOTW…

I’d prefer to be given the choice, some might want to be prepared to offer that choice to others. That many others have died painfully throughout history wouldn’t be much consolation for a spouse or parent of the deceased. Different strokes I suppose.

Starting smaller with common/minor procedures that can be done with local anesthesia makes sense, but you don’t get to choose the injury you may be presented with at the EOTW either.

Maybe I’m just in a particularly morbid mood today, but what’s the plan for dealing with an eviscerating chainsaw accident? Or a crushed pelvis and internal hemorrhaging if someone is run over by a car? No 911, no EMS, no hospitals. Conscious patient in agony, maybe only for minutes or maybe death is still hours away. Deal with it as you might for an animal? This is where I think Murby’s question has merit.

Murby wrote:This is turning out to be more complicated than I was initially giving it credit for… Lots more work to be done.

Same here. Don’t get discouraged, maybe just back up and start with something simpler. Ingrown toenails? Incision and drainage? Tooth extraction? If you put some study and resources into how to deal with those near-painlessly I’d rather have you as my TEOTWAWKI medic than any ten First Aid&compression only CPR&AED certificate holders. Maybe not at the scene of my injury auto accident or in the next cubicle if I have a heart attack or go into cardiac arrest tomorrow, but definitely at the EOTW.

Murby wrote:You all have to admit, being able to successfully anesthetize someone in a SHFT situation could make life a lot easier and a lot less ugly when it comes to the inevitable injuries that will occur.

True, burn debridement comes to mind. Could make an inevitable death a lot easier too.

I’m with you up to a point but then you lose me. The “some kind of “knock you unconscious” drug” comment suggests some more study may be beneficial if that’s the best way you can describe what the goal is.

But more than that, seems to me you’re coming at this from the wrong direction too. Why not build a list of the anesthetics that have the properties you require and that fit the constraints/limitations you’ll be working under first.

In the scramble for surviving resources, survivors may develop a domestic mode of production in which currency will be displaced by barter for exchanges of subsistence goods and a system of fixed allocations may be established. Currency is likely to be confined to the prestige sphere, or for obtaining particularly lumpy goods, and probably will consist of precious metals and gems.

From the article I posted a link to above. That’s the researchers conclusion based on studies of prior events, history may not repeat but it often rhymes.

A few rifle cartridges for a few eggs, some batteries for a blanket, boot repair in exchange for a few pounds of salt, that is subsistence type bartering. It will likely occur between neighbors or those in close proximity very early following a collapse. Later, once some order and security and a means for dispute arbitration exists, then in peasant marketplaces set up for trading subsistence type goods. Hand to mouth existence stuff, small quantities of silver might be useful here.

Lumpy goods/services would be things like medical services, land or homes, multiple head of cattle, getting your 1000 gallon propane or diesel tank refilled, a new tractor, or a winter’s worth of split firewood. Prestige is power within the group, clan, or community, the ability to influence people and get favorable outcomes in disputes. It might be fun to fantasize about the stupid rich people or clueless community leaders begging you to take their luxury items in exchange for a loaf of bread, but it’s not very realistic. At least some of their pre-collapse prestige will carry over initially and they’ll be trying to organize people and resources, whether you’re seen as one of the organizers or one of the organizees (is that a word?) depends on your prestige.

And there’s going to be black markets, even during the siege of Leningrad when some had resorted to cannibalism there was still food for purchase if you could afford it. If you want larger quantities of rationed or contraband items, or extra ration cards, this is probably where you’ll need to shop.

If you can afford to pay cash for expensive prestige/lumpy goods now, without using payment plans or insurance or credit, and you want to be able to continue to do so following a major societal collapse, that’s where gold is likely to be your best bet. This is how I see it paying out in a sudden societal collapse anyway, within a few weeks some structure (not necessarily good) will start to take shape out of the chaos.

Murby wrote:If you needed a limb amputated or a bullet pulled, would you rather die in your sleep from an anesthetic mistake or die in agony from shock?? Not sure about everyone else but I’d choose the anesthesia.

That’s interesting, from the standpoints of say needing an emergency anesthetic for amputating a trapped limb to free a victim or for use as a euthanasia drug (whether that was the intent or not). If it was my arm that was mangled and stuck in a piece of equipment, or my leg trapped under building debris, I might agree that you anesthetize me before taking a hacksaw to my limb.

Still not understanding why you want to manufacture an anesthetic agent yourself however. You wouldn’t be able to produce an agent nearly as pure as even lab grade reagent quality in your kitchen, it’ll require time to do so that you may not have, the supplies and equipment would likely be ten times or more the cost of just purchasing it, and the purchased product will come in an appropriate container (with preservatives and stabilizers, if needed) for transport and storage already. Why make it?

It’s somewhat dated but the different scenarios it presents makes sense in my unlearned opinion. If you’re in a hurry skip to chapter 7 (“The Worst Case”). But the “Resource Abundance” or “Institution Intensive” scenarios may be more likely if you live in rural/agricultural or an urban area, respectively.

Very dry reading, maybe best saved for a rainy day ( ) but I thought it was informative and a good starting point for a rational/responsible discussion on how barter and markets might work following a disaster. Gold isn’t always best for example, and yes you will still have to pay taxes (with something, to somebody).

You just laid out what I consider the best-case scenario for us if a prolonged SHTF event occurred. One that started in December would be much worse for the unprepared around here, but really might be the best for us. We have what we need to live semi-comfortably til spring and then some, and remoteness and unplowed roads blocking most vehicle travel will help isolate us from anyone looking to cause trouble. We’d be happy to be snowed in and just wait it out.

How do you get there? Snowmobile.How do you get back? SameWhat do you take with you? See belowWhat clothing/equipment do you have for the journey? We’re prepared clothing wise, suits, boots, helmets, gloves, facemasks, etc. Slung rifle. HT radio. Have a 3′ X 8′ sled we could tow for larger items if needed, ratchet straps and cordage. Each snowmobile has a small emergency kit, heavy on fire-making and first aid, but some food (candy/power/clif bars), spare AA batts, knife (small folder), and a tow rope. The snowmobiles each have factory toolkits already (and I added a few extra items), plus a spare drive belt and spare spark plugs. In suit pockets I have an area map, compass, flashlight, knife (4″ semi-serrated folder), spare batteries, and more fire-making equipment (this gear stays in my suit year round).

This scenario is an easy one for us, been doing this for decades for fun and have experience rescuing stranded people and recovering stuck/dead snowmobiles. Our safety/trip rules have changed over the years with new technology and much more reliable snowmobiles now than in decades past. Currently, if traveling with just one snowmobile we stay within VHF radio range of home (about 16 miles with our 50′ base antenna, cell service is spotty at best), if going further we take two snowmobiles in case one breaks down. Even for short rides we communicate our trip plan to those staying behind, if nobody is home to file the plan with we leave it in the note. Have two sets of cross-county skis and a pair of snowshoes but breaking trail is slow, hard work. With a snowmobile (and a half gallon of gas) I’d be there and back in about 15 minutes.

You just laid out what I consider the best-case scenario for us if a prolonged SHTF event occurred. One that started in December would be much worse for the unprepared around here, but really might be the best for us. We have what we need to live semi-comfortably til spring and then some, and remoteness and unplowed roads blocking most vehicle travel will help isolate us from anyone looking to cause trouble. We’d be happy to be snowed in and just wait it out.

How do you get there? Snowmobile.How do you get back? SameWhat do you take with you? See belowWhat clothing/equipment do you have for the journey? We’re prepared clothing wise, suits, boots, helmets, gloves, facemasks, etc. Slung rifle. HT radio. Have a 3′ X 8′ sled we could tow for larger items if needed, ratchet straps and cordage. Each snowmobile has a small emergency kit, heavy on fire-making and first aid, but some food (candy/power/clif bars), spare AA batts, and a tow rope. The snowmobiles each have factory toolkits already (and I added a few extra items), plus a spare drive belt and spare spark plugs. In suit pockets I have an area map, compass, flashlight, spare batteries, and more fire-making equipment (this gear stays in my suit year round).

This scenario is an easy one for us, been doing this for decades for fun and have experience rescuing stranded people and recovering stuck/dead snowmobiles. Our safety/trip rules have changed over the years with new techology and much more reliable snowmobiles now than in decades past. Currently, if traveling with just one snowmobile we stay within VHF radio range of home (about 16 miles with our 50′ base antenna, cell service is spotty at best), if going further we take two snowmobiles in case one breaks down. Even for short rides we communicate our trip plan to those staying behind, if nobody is home to file the plan with we leave it in the note. Have two sets of cross-county skis and a pair of snowshoes but breaking trail is slow, hard work. With a snowmobile (and a half gallon of gas) I’d be there and back in about 15 minutes.

Mil spec/mil std reliability for a reasonable cost would be great. They’re 95% as is imo, but better weather proofing, a built in programmable relay, and external jacks for power and relay contacts, and being able to program your own alert message(s) maybe.

Major French wrote:For emergency surgery, you could use starting fluid to put somebody order. It has ether. You could use it for things like dental extraction.

No. starting fluid is MOSTLY ether but also has light aromatic hydrocarbons (VOCs) that are very hazardous to ones health. They target the liver and central nervous system primarily but also cause other problems.However…It can be easily manufactured using a variety of methods. The simplest is alcohol condensation. I checked as i was writing this and there are youtube videos on this very subject. The one i watched is simple, safe and straightforward…boil ethyl alcohol and pass the vapour through a hot sulphuric acid bath and then through a reflux condenser. Google reflux condenser, vigreux (sp?) column or packed column. this is the only specialised piece of equipment that is needed. One can easily make this as well once the design is understood.

The only caveat is that ALL heat sources MUST be oil bath electrical. Any spark or flame or even electric coil glowing any shade of red will likely result in disasterous conflagration.