aknod wrote:If you're asked to exit the vehicle, but can't lock it (I'm driving a school bus and it is possible to lock it, it just requires a bit of work to do), does that mean the cop can look inside?

It is unlawful for the officer to "search" it--i.e. open the door and inspect inside. Do not allow him inside without a warrant or some reasonable suspicion (i.e. you have no choice); treat the bus as your house for the purpose of searches. It is, however, lawful for him to look through the windows (including with flashlight) or any other "natural" level of public inspection that could occur from outside the vehicle. With that "natural" level of public inspection, a good rule of thumb is to not leave anything in the open that you would not be fine with having in the open while parked at a police station. No open bottles, no "dime bags," no non-cigarette smoke, no incense, nothing that would give an officer any reason (excuse) to suspect something.

"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

aknod wrote:If you're asked to exit the vehicle, but can't lock it (I'm driving a school bus and it is possible to lock it, it just requires a bit of work to do), does that mean the cop can look inside?

The short answer is no.

The long answer is what BBadger stated. They are always free to "look" in the vehicle at whatever is in "plain view" through windows, door, etc. They are also free to allow a dog to walk around the vehicle, but not inside. Dogs are a real complication to the whole process. It's simple in theory, you treat the dog as you would any officer, same rights and responsibilities. However, contrary to what many think, the dog's alerting process is in many ways a highly subjective game of the handler reading subtle clues the dog gives. They don't generally stop, sit and start barking when they alert which would be pretty black and white. One thing that nullifies a dog is if you have a dog of your own in the vehicle. Dogs will "alert" on each other. Doesn't help much for Burning Man since you shouldn't have a dog with you on the way to Burning Man, but helpful information anyway.

Whatever you do, do not allow the presence of a dog to intimidate you into giving up your rights. Not all K9 units are drug dogs, some are trained to look for bombs, some are trained to search out blood, some are search and rescue dogs, etc. And, of course, the police officer is allowed to lie to you so of course he's going to tell you the dog is a drug dog and that he's alerted on your vehicle so you should just allow a search. This is a lie, if they had "reason to believe" they wouldn't ask, they would just order you out of the vehicle and proceed.

With nothing of concern, my plan (never been there) has always been:"sure, if you agree to:"* you take your time and don't damage anything* if you don't know how to open something, ask (remember, don't damage anything)* you won't be pissed off at me when you realize you wasted your time

But I'm getting the idea that plan is a 'bad idea', if they're under pressure to make something fit.

Jar Jar Sith Lord.Odd. No bears in the dump. Oh well, lets go across the road & pick blueberries..... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

Canoe wrote:With nothing of concern, my plan (never been there) has always been:"sure, if you agree to:"* you take your time and don't damage anything* if you don't know how to open something, ask (remember, don't damage anything)* you won't be pissed off at me when you realize you wasted your time

But I'm getting the idea that plan is a 'bad idea', if they're under pressure to make something fit.

Nope, I would never consent to a search of any property under my control or of my person or personal effects. You never know what someone could find that you never knew was there (or in rare cases actually *wasn't* there until the search - you aren't generally allowed to observe the search and usually are ordered to sit on a curb or in some area away from the vehicle, maybe the back of a squad). You could conceivably step on a stray pot seed on a walk through a parking lot, get in your car and deposit it on the carpet of your vehicle where it is found in a search and there you go, you are fucked. People *have* been prosecuted on posession charges, successfully, and had their property seized for posession of a single seed. It does happen.

Also, I *highly* doubt the police will agree to your qualifications to your consent, and even if they did.... they are allowed to lie to you, remember? They are constrained only by the law and legal precedent, not your oral roadside contract.

Canoe wrote:With nothing of concern, my plan (never been there) has always been:"sure, if you agree to:"* you take your time and don't damage anything* if you don't know how to open something, ask (remember, don't damage anything)* you won't be pissed off at me when you realize you wasted your time

But I'm getting the idea that plan is a 'bad idea', if they're under pressure to make something fit.

- Trust me it is a TOTAL PAIN in DA BUTT to wait for someone to search your car. I was coming home from a friends house and I got pulled over for having a headlight out (It had just went out that same day, **My car eats headlights like a snack btw**) So I knew what he was pulling me over for, but told him I didn't know why. So then he just says real nice, I just wanted to let you know your headlight is out. I said it must have just went out today and I'll be sure to pick one up tomorrow and change it. Then he asked me do you smoke? - - I looked at him really weird, b/c I don't smoke and I answered "no" he said well you smell like you have been smoking m@rijuana ((then my eyes got really big, b/c I'd not even seen that stuff for years)) I said "no officer you must be mistaken, I don't smoke" He said "ma'am please step out of the car, I'm going to search your vehicle" I responded with "I do not consent to any searches." - HE responded with "I was NOT asking you I was telling you."

At this point I was really confused and tired (it was really late probably around 1am) I replied "I do not understand how you are allowed to search my vehicle if I do not consent" He said "because I have probable cause"

Not knowing what the heck he was refering to... what probable cause and not trying to give him a hard time I just got out (I also knew I had NOTHING in my car). He searched my car AND was grilling me for EVERY little thing he found... Like he asked "why do you have so many airfresherners?" I said "well you must have found all the old ones, b/c I haven't cleaned my car in a while and they must have just slipped under the seat." ((which they did, I didn't even know I had them in there for crying out loud.))

BUT the best one was... he opens a can of mints (kinda like altoids but these were some dollar tree no namers) and he says "What are these." I looked at him and said "mints" he says "do you suck on them and then put them back in here? why are they all broken up?" I looked at him and said "I guess b/c they are OLD, I didn't even know I still had any of those left, do you want them? He said "no."

This search took almost 2 hours and I didn't have that much crap in my car. He finally came over and said ok, you are free to go. I said "thank you, may I have your name, and badge number?"

He finally was the one caught off guard and told me what they were.

the long and short of it, is - yes I still got searched, but I was just trying to go home b/c I was tired. At least I tried and still did not consent to the search, so if for some reason there was something left by a friend, or a homeless dude, or king tut I would have at least had a fighting chance in court.

ok as a brit (who DO NOT have right to say to no) if a policeman or anyone asks can i search you/your vehicle you say no. if they start to search you or your vehicle you say i do not consent to this.is that right? and if i get searched or my vehicle i make sure everyone else just watches silently?

FREE THE SHERPASBurners with torches is right and natural and just.-fishy.CATCH AND RELEASE.

Yup, no matter what you do, never consent to the search. Sure, you may be forced into a search by "probable cause" but never agree to a search.

If you're faced with a question you don't want to or should not answer (which is really any question), you can always say "I respectfully decline to answer that."

Canoe:

Your case in particular is a situation many people will find themselves in: you have not done anything wrong, or have anything illegal, so you think consenting to a search will prove your innocence and speed along the stop.

Nothing is further from the truth.

Even if you are innocent of any crime, have nothing illegal, and have a sparkling record, the search can go wrong simply because of officer error, corruption, or even just how you act. Furthermore, even if the officer will never find anything, the contents of your car, the containers inside it, etc. can and will be emptied in the same manner the Rabbette described. Her story depicts exactly what can go wrong. The don't talk to police videos also highlight this point about what searches and talks can do even when you're innocent.

No reason, whatsoever, for consenting to a search.

"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

graidawg wrote:ok as a brit (who DO NOT have right to say to no) if a policeman or anyone asks can i search you/your vehicle you say no. if they start to search you or your vehicle you say i do not consent to this.is that right? and if i get searched or my vehicle i make sure everyone else just watches silently?

Pretty much. You make your objection clear to the officer/s present. You remain polite, courteous and silent, obey orders from the officers and if you've reached this point I wouldn't worry about being too terribly discreet about recording any events you can as long as you obey their orders. You are in public, they have no expectation of privacy so you are free to record them, but they also have you detained so they can tell you to wait in the back of a squad where you won't be able to record much.

Once they have completed their search, they will either tell you you are under arrest or release you in most cases. If they don't, you can begin asking the time-worn quesions "Am I under arrest?" If yes-remain silent. If no then "Am I being detained for questioning?" If yes-remain silent. If no then "Then I am free to go?" If yes, then do so. If no then "Am I under arrest?"

That's the standard line, and when it's gotten to the point that they have expressed to you that they consider you under suspicion of committing a crime by making a non-censented search of you or your stuff, then it's time to play that slightly more hardball game IMO. Of course, while remaining calm, polite, and unemotional. Don't be a whack job, but say nothing other than Am I under arrest? Am I being detained? Then I'm free to go...

JStep wrote:Great replies. I have never had a "bad" encounter with an LEO (as an adult anyway) and a huge part of that is attitude. Be friendly, say yes sir and no sir. Don't argue about anything, don't contradict or try to talk your way out of anything. It's really very simple, the hard part is to avoid getting into conversations. Nothing says you have to respond or answer *any* questions other than your name, address, etc which you can head off by providing your ID. If your address on your ID is out of date (they usually ask "Is this your current address?") give your current address. Watch the Flex Your Rights videos.... Be polite, don't talk, don't answer any questions...

Q: "So, where are you headed?"

A: "I'm on vacation. How can I help?"

Q: "Mind if I take a look in your vehicle?"

A: "I'm sorry, I can't consent to any search."

Q: "What are you hiding? Why can't I look in the car/bag/backpack?"

A: "I'm sorry, I can't consent to any search. How can I help?"

Again, be polite, respectful and look them in the eye but don't get lured into conversations. The Flex Your Rights videos do a great job of showing how *anything* you say can be used against you. Don't answer questions and don't volunteer any information. Don't argue, don't get confrontational, don't refute or try to defend yourself. If they threaten to, or start to, issue you a ticket, just say "Yes sir." It will suck if you have to endure an illegal search or the guy gets pissed and detains you for a long time, but it will pay off in the long run to not try to mitigate the damage by giving up a "little bit" of information or censent to a search. Once you have consented to a roadside search law enforcement is allowed to literally destroy your vehicle looking for what they claim to suspect you have and are under no obligation to put anything back together or put your belongings back in the vehicle.

Smile, be polite, friendly, and don't talk.

Actually IMO a better answer is "I'm sorry but I've got somewhere to be and I can't be late. Am I being detained?" Always being friendly and apologetic but never consenting to a search or incriminating oneself. If you lock the door getting out and they ask you about that, "oh sorry, force of habit". (do it with keys in hand please don't lock your keys in the car :p ) And practice not being a trembling stuttering guilty-looking person. Friendly and polite and relaxed.

DesmondDoomsday wrote:Actually IMO a better answer is "I'm sorry but I've got somewhere to be and I can't be late. Am I being detained?" Always being friendly and apologetic but never consenting to a search or incriminating oneself.

graidawg wrote:ok as a brit (who DO NOT have right to say to no) if a policeman or anyone asks can i search you/your vehicle you say no. if they start to search you or your vehicle you say i do not consent to this.is that right? and if i get searched or my vehicle i make sure everyone else just watches silently?

Pretty much. You make your objection clear to the officer/s present. You remain polite, courteous and silent, obey orders from the officers and if you've reached this point I wouldn't worry about being too terribly discreet about recording any events you can as long as you obey their orders. You are in public, they have no expectation of privacy so you are free to record them, but they also have you detained so they can tell you to wait in the back of a squad where you won't be able to record much.

Once they have completed their search, they will either tell you you are under arrest or release you in most cases. If they don't, you can begin asking the time-worn quesions "Am I under arrest?" If yes-remain silent. If no then "Am I being detained for questioning?" If yes-remain silent. If no then "Then I am free to go?" If yes, then do so. If no then "Am I under arrest?"

That's the standard line, and when it's gotten to the point that they have expressed to you that they consider you under suspicion of committing a crime by making a non-censented search of you or your stuff, then it's time to play that slightly more hardball game IMO. Of course, while remaining calm, polite, and unemotional. Don't be a whack job, but say nothing other than Am I under arrest? Am I being detained? Then I'm free to go...

Okay, just tossing this out there. What's the possibility that he'll end up on a list and be forbidden to cross the border next time he comes? After what happened to Deb, I think that's an extra consideration. Also, if it's hard for people in the states to get the time and money to travel to a court date, it's going to be really hard on Europpeans and other foriegners.

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

theCryptofishist wrote:Okay, just tossing this out there. What's the possibility that he'll end up on a list and be forbidden to cross the border next time he comes? After what happened to Deb, I think that's an extra consideration. Also, if it's hard for people in the states to get the time and money to travel to a court date, it's going to be really hard on Europpeans and other foriegners.

Excellent question! I have not a clue what foreign citizenship would do to affect the situation.

theCryptofishist wrote:Okay, just tossing this out there. What's the possibility that he'll end up on a list and be forbidden to cross the border next time he comes? After what happened to Deb, I think that's an extra consideration. Also, if it's hard for people in the states to get the time and money to travel to a court date, it's going to be really hard on Europpeans and other foriegners.

I am not a lawyer or immigration official, or anything in that capacity, but there are some fundamentals:

First of all, all foreigners should brush up on what rights they have in the US. They may not be the same as in your own country, and it's good to know that you do have rights and are not ignorant of them. Remember, you're a foreigner and it's easy to identify and pick on foreigners, especially by those who already hold a dislike for "American hippies" let alone some "goddamn Eurotrash hippies". Some officers may feel emboldened by the fact that you may not know your rights. Be respectful, act like you're a guest n a foreign country, but of course don't waive your rights.

I would make sure you have "your papers" (international drivers license, passport) and also know the number of the consulate/embassy of your home country. Without documents your car can be impounded, and you placed in jail to ensure you don't flee. Without proper ID you're going to have a hard time getting through to your embassy/consulate if you really need to. Though the US is a signatory of the Vienna Convention on Consulate Relations and your consulate should receive notice of your arrest, the Supreme Court has ruled that if the consulate was not notified (accident, etc.), that it does not have a binding effect on your case. As such, you should request contact with the consulate in the unlikely event that you are arrested.

Getting flagged: it's probably only an issue if you're arrested, and it's going to depend on whether you get convicted of the crime. If not done for you, you should report the arrest to your embassy in order to ensure that you'll be eligible for visas later, as well as to gain representation and consultation from the embassy. Getting a ticket or something low-level more than likely won't get you placed on a watch list or something like that; it's not worth the effort to document every person for watch lists, let alone foreigners. It may affect your international driver's license. I'm not sure.

Many people, they'll simply disappear later when they leave the country and not pay the fine for tickets. I have a feeling that to prevent that, there are some bindings on your international driver's license that may affect your status. I'm also guessing that fleeing will affect your standing if you ever return, at least to the jurisdiction in which the ticket was issued. They may forget about it too, and some officers will simply not bother, and let you off with a warning because it's a pain in the ass.

"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

Never speak to the police, never answer their questions. Watch the video links BBadger posted above, see the pdf link above as well.

One more recommendation for viewing that video. Every American should watch it. Don't think of it as a chore either. The speaker's presentation is actually quite illuminating, interesting, and entertaining.

I would clarify one thing. Legally, you must answer if you are asked to identify yourself (or provide ID, if instructed). This is the result of a recent Supreme Court decision, Hiibel vs Nevada. The second question I would answer is the one presented in the thread title (request to search your person/vehicle), and my answer would always be no. As others have said, be polite and respectful. Even if you aren't saying anything, it's pretty easy to distinguish a polite demeanor from a antagonistic one.

Canoe wrote:With nothing of concern, my plan (never been there) has always been:"sure, if you agree to:"* you take your time and don't damage anything* if you don't know how to open something, ask (remember, don't damage anything)* you won't be pissed off at me when you realize you wasted your time

But I'm getting the idea that plan is a 'bad idea', if they're under pressure to make something fit.

- Trust me it is a TOTAL PAIN in DA BUTT to wait for someone to search your car. I was coming home from a friends house and I got pulled over for having a headlight out (It had just went out that same day, **My car eats headlights like a snack btw**) So I knew what he was pulling me over for, but told him I didn't know why. So then he just says real nice, I just wanted to let you know your headlight is out. I said it must have just went out today and I'll be sure to pick one up tomorrow and change it. Then he asked me do you smoke? - - I looked at him really weird, b/c I don't smoke and I answered "no" he said well you smell like you have been smoking m@rijuana ((then my eyes got really big, b/c I'd not even seen that stuff for years)) I said "no officer you must be mistaken, I don't smoke" He said "ma'am please step out of the car, I'm going to search your vehicle" I responded with "I do not consent to any searches." - HE responded with "I was NOT asking you I was telling you."

At this point I was really confused and tired (it was really late probably around 1am) I replied "I do not understand how you are allowed to search my vehicle if I do not consent" He said "because I have probable cause"

Not knowing what the heck he was refering to... what probable cause and not trying to give him a hard time I just got out (I also knew I had NOTHING in my car). He searched my car AND was grilling me for EVERY little thing he found... Like he asked "why do you have so many airfresherners?" I said "well you must have found all the old ones, b/c I haven't cleaned my car in a while and they must have just slipped under the seat." ((which they did, I didn't even know I had them in there for crying out loud.))

BUT the best one was... he opens a can of mints (kinda like altoids but these were some dollar tree no namers) and he says "What are these." I looked at him and said "mints" he says "do you suck on them and then put them back in here? why are they all broken up?" I looked at him and said "I guess b/c they are OLD, I didn't even know I still had any of those left, do you want them? He said "no."

This search took almost 2 hours and I didn't have that much crap in my car. He finally came over and said ok, you are free to go. I said "thank you, may I have your name, and badge number?"

He finally was the one caught off guard and told me what they were.

the long and short of it, is - yes I still got searched, but I was just trying to go home b/c I was tired. At least I tried and still did not consent to the search, so if for some reason there was something left by a friend, or a homeless dude, or king tut I would have at least had a fighting chance in court.

Unsolicited advice, get the headlight eating issue repaired and carry extra needed tools for changing out dead headlights (they're cheap enough) and have someone show you how to replace them. And be SURE to check every time you night drive. If you can learn to recognize if the headlight eating (heap) vehicle eats one WHILE driving, stop, replace and roll....see ya' soon!

I'm the MAN in a truck, burner who is stuck, you're in luck! I'll whip out my BIG tow chain and not charge you, not even one lousy buck!

JStep wrote:And if they can do so discreetly, record the events on a cell phone. Even if you never intend to use it as "evidence", you can use it to keep your memory of the events and statements accurate.

Be careful: Nevada cops have not taken too kindly about being recorded lately:

I have been talking to people who are leaving soon to go to BRC and everyone is acting like there are going to be drug dogs everywhere going through peoples car at the entrance gate, is this what BM has become? drug dogs on every car?

Twitter - @BurnPlayaMan E-Mail - Mosquitopilate@yahoo.comThanks to all that made BM 2012 great. You people are the best on planet earth )'( )'( )'(

Mosquitopilate wrote:I have been talking to people who are leaving soon to go to BRC and everyone is acting like there are going to be drug dogs everywhere going through peoples car at the entrance gate, is this what BM has become? drug dogs on every car?

As long as you conduct yourself with those expectations.. then anything less is just gravy.. right?

Watsonic, Youre not getting the point. Getting manipulated into paying a fine by confessing is not winning. It's stupid. I was manipulated into getting a ticket once when I probably could have avoided it.

Anyone taking offence at anything in my posts - tough. It's only an internet forum. Stop being overly sensitive. you are shallow and banal. Eplayans who spend hours a day posting need to make in person friends and mentally masturbate less.