We need to start looking for a young stud catcher. Avila will never be the answer. Torii and Victor aren't getting any youger. I think they still have a couple good years in them but we can't just hope that folks like Avila, Kelly, Dirks and the others will step up when it counts.

December 2nd, 2013, 10:37 pm

The Legend

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: February 11th, 2005, 3:01 pmPosts: 4030Location: WSU

Re: Doug Fister traded

Boz wrote:

Legend, do you know anything about these guys? I may have heard of Lombardozzi but that's it. I would have to think that this is a move to put Smyly in the rotation without losing Porcello.

We still need a power hitting LF. Recent rumors are Soo, Granderson or putting Beltran out there.

We need to start looking for a young stud catcher. Avila will never be the answer. Torii and Victor aren't getting any youger. I think they still have a couple good years in them but we can't just hope that folks like Avila, Kelly, Dirks and the others will step up when it counts.

Lombardozzi is a 25 yo utility player who switch hits. One would think he signals the end of the Ramon Santiago era but he doesnt really play SS and neither does Don Kelly who was re-signed but Im guessing the Tigers will go with Iglesias and Kinsler starting and Hernan Perez (who can play SS) and this guy Lombardozzi as utility guys. Lombardozzi can play some OF also but he s not a good enough hitter to put in a platoon with Dirks. In all honesty, I have no idea why the Tigers wanted this guy bc they can pay the $2-3 mill to get a veteran version of him and also the Tigers dont play in the national league so the bat doesnt really help since he s not going to bat for pitchers and he s not a better hitter or fielder than our current starters or outfielders. He did hit .280-.300 in the minors with .750-.800 OPS and didnt strike out much in the minors so maybe his bat develops a little more. Best case scenario he could develop into an average starting 2B if Kinsler is moved off 2B in a couple years. Anyway, he basically replaces Santiago at a cheaper price (unless you count Fister as part of the price) I guess I should say salary and hits better than Santiago but isnt as good of a defender. He cannot become a free agent until 2018.

Ian Krol is a left handed relief pitcher who made his major league debut this past season pitching well in June but then falling apart once the scouting reports came out on him and was sent back to the minors. He s only 22 and a strikeout pitcher with decent control so there s a chance he becomes better. He does not however project to become a closer - he could become a quality middle reliever or lefty specialist. He has a chance to make the Detroit Tigers out of spring training but he ll have to beat out whatever veteran invitees they bring in. If not he ll be in AAA Toledo for at least part of the year. He s not a bad player but I dont really get it - the Tigers have the means to play free agency especially for the bullpen where middle relief and lefty specialists dont go for a premium cost and I havent heard of too many middle relievers/specialists playing with the same team for very long. Best case scenario he becomes a Phil Coke type player perhaps a little better than Coke. Krol has also had alcohol related suspension and suspension related to some homophobic tweets.

Robbie Ray seems to be the centerpiece of this deal for the Tigers as Dombrowski called him a "premium pitching prospect." He is a 22 yr old lefty who has been starting in the minors and has reached AA. He apparently has 3 good pitches but is not considered overpowering though he generates a lot of strikeouts. His biggest issue both statistically and from scouting reports is control where he doesnt command his pitches all that well and walks too many guys. He had a good 2012, 11-5 W-L record 142 IP with 4 complete games, 160 K/62 BBs, 3.36 ERA, 1.25 WHIP between A and AA. He s been ranked among the Washington top 10 prospects in some lists but left out on others so Im not sure everyone is in agreement. Dombrowski seems to love these left handers that strike guys out and he s hit on Drew Smyly but missed on Andrew Oliver, Andrew Miller, Casey Crosby. I think Ray is kind of in that category, he s not as good as Smyly and has less power than Oliver and Crosby but better command than both. I wouldnt expect to see him pitching in Detroit until at least 2015.

Maybe the Tigers landed some players who can help over the next few years but they didnt land any immediate impact players in this trade. There s also an equal chance that all they got is 2 fringe bullpen lefties destined to be journeyman and a utility player. Washington has a deep system with some more highly touted pitching prospects and also have some true premium prospects in CF, C, and either 2b-3b - the Tigers didnt get any of those guys but gave up an excellent starting pitcher. Fister is as consistent as they come, still 2 years away from free agency, and has been 32-20 with a 3.29 ERA for the Tigers in 2+ seasons. He has a smooth and easy delivery and has pitched over 200 IP in 2 out of the last 3 seasons and also figured to improve with the Tigers upgrading there infield defense. I really feel that the Tigers gave up too much and acquired players that arent of the type that you go out and trade for as prospects since veteran versions of them are available for free agency and the Tigers have dollars to burn. At minimum the Tigers should have received relief pitcher Tyler Clippard who would have helped immediately and significantly in 2014 and also received one of the Nationals pitching prospects more highly rated than Robbie Ray. Since this trade doesnt address immediate needs, obviously there are more moves to come from Dombrowski but why make this trade if it doesnt land any immediate needs and you have to spend to fix the bullpen and left field anyways. Smyly is a better left handed reliever than either of these guys acquired in the trade so it also creates a bigger hole there by moving him into the rotation. I would have preferred the Tigers sent out Scherzer and acquired a more legitimate return. Scherzer's value is at an all time high, he would ve landed us a better package, he s going to cost more than this team can really afford for years into the future and truthfully he probably wont have another season closely resembling the Cy Young season that he had.

December 3rd, 2013, 1:24 am

The Legend

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: February 11th, 2005, 3:01 pmPosts: 4030Location: WSU

Re: Doug Fister traded

here s what Keith Law from espn had to say

Quote:

The Washington Nationals seemed like a good bet to go after an undervalued starter for the back of their rotation -- I guessed Brett Anderson, who was originally drafted by Mike Rizzo in Arizona, in a post earlier on Monday -- and they did just that, sending some quantity -- infielder Steve Lombardozzi and lefties Ian Krol and Robbie Ray -- to the Detroit Tigers for Doug Fister, who'll give Washington one of the best rotations in either league for 2014.

Detroit may fill some minor holes, but I don't think they got full value back given the market for starters right now and how effective Fister has been the last two seasons.

The Nats get Fister for the next two years before he hits free agency, coinciding nicely with their main window of contention, as Jordan Zimmerman, Ian Desmond, and Tyler Clippard are all scheduled to hit free agency after 2015 as well. Fister has been quietly effective since Detroit acquired him from Seattle for the baseball equivalent of a wad of used chewing tobacco in 2011, shifting his pitch mix to throw more two-seamers and generate more ground balls; that, combined with plus-plus control, means he can be extremely valuable (averaging more than 4 WAR over the last three seasons) without big velocity.

He's been fairly durable, with one significant injury in those three seasons, a costochondral (cartilage connecting the ribs to the sternum) strain, meaning he's had no arm trouble. The Nationals could be looking at 400-plus innings from him over these two years and 9 WAR, all for maybe $18-20 million total if he just goes through arbitration twice.

Fister's arrival gives the Nationals a potential surplus in the rotation, with Tanner Roark, Taylor Jordan, and the injured Ross Detwiler all candidates for the fifth spot; Detwiler could move to relief, as the Nationals just traded Ian Krol, the only left-handed reliever in their bullpen, or prospect Sammy Solis could ease into the majors in a relief role to fill that void. They don't have any obvious needs at this point other than that left-hander in the pen, which as needs go is a minor one. This is a stacked team if they can stay healthy.

I can't believe the Tigers couldn't get more total value than this for Fister, who is easily a top 25-30 overall starter in the game; they may have traded more to fill needs than to maximize their return. Krol flourished after a shift to the bullpen, going from 86-89 mph as a starter to 92-95 in relief, with an above-average changeup and fringy curveball; he's underutilized in a lefty specialist role but I like him as a potential seventh- or eighth-inning guy given more time to adjust to short relief.

Lombardozzi is a backup second baseman, lacking the stick to play there every day, and has played just 22 games in pro ball at shortstop, meaning it's unclear whether he can even be a utility infielder in the era of the four-man bench.

Ray is the prospect, a potential back-end starter who shows four pitches but has nothing plus, although there's some upside here if the Tigers can get him to lengthen his stride. His sharpest pitch is his spike curveball, but like most pitches of that type it usually ends up out of the zone, and his changeup is fringy enough that he's had trouble finishing off right-handed hitters. He's a project, a guy with some value but who could use some mechanical adjustments.

Drew Smyly, who was superb in relief for Detroit in 2013, takes Fister's spot in the rotation but won't be able to match that production.

A lefty reliever, a backup at second, and a non-top 100 prospect is just not a good return for two years of one of the top 30 starters in baseball.

December 3rd, 2013, 1:56 am

The Legend

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: February 11th, 2005, 3:01 pmPosts: 4030Location: WSU

Re: Doug Fister traded

Reading bw the lines on some of the Detroit writers who have to have at least some inside info. It sounds like the Tigers will be landing a free agent closer soon, most likely Brian Wilson. There also seems to be a shakeup coming in the outfield and it sounds like that might not just be a free agent signing. I think Austin Jackson is going to be traded, who knows what he ll bring in return.

Finally getting back to this trade today of Fister - what I really dont understand is that a lot of the reports are saying that the Tigers front office are not expecting to have Max Scherzer in 2015. I just really dont understand why Scherzer wouldnt be the one traded in that scenario.