The evil model was the one last Introduced , with the gold streak giving her a more sinister look what I call aka evil
Her reaction during the alliance cut scene shows she wants blood and the king allows a peace treaty . S
You know she's fuming , who else can she turn to but the naga that's the only plane really Warcraft had yet to touch .
Will jaina turn her back on Dalaran and reach the depths of darkness to fulfill her blood lust ?

That's the direction I believe it's heading and in the near future (pre exp content leading into exp ) she will slowly go mad
This will be unveiled as you do the keepers of time weekly and it reaches full power you rfind she's the traitor .

nowhere in that does it show her wanting blood. its somewhat implied but she doesnt say that she want them dead. she wants them dismantled. there is a HUGE difference. she just want them to have no organized government and i somewhat dont blame her. sure that opens up ALL kinds of other problems but this isnt about that.

the horde could very well be dismantled without endless bloodshed. its not gonna happen but it could. think of it as the fall of nazi germany, or the soviet union. did they all die? no. the government just went away.

It's either solid character development, or they broke her. It's easy to break a character - put them through so much that there's now ay back. Maybe, just maybe, Jaina has a way back - and if she does it'll be one hell of a story, and I'll be proud of Blizz. But she's reaching a terminal point - they need to start pulling her back or risk her broken for good.

This is more or less what I think. I think so far it's a great character development. However, there are no good character developments in WoW but there are fine examples of destroying good characters. As much as I wish for otherwise I think we'll see another corruption story and a new raid boss. In the best case humans are getting a new queen.

And how many of such very powerful people would there be after a war to the finish? Can't be many.

They don't need to be very powerful to hijack such an established supply line, to redirect it is another story though. But that isn't really the point, take the blood elves for example, they got on their feet from near destruction to a force to be reckoned within less than a decade, it is only a matter of time, until some powerful individuals step forth among their respective races, supporting their cause.

Depends on how trustworthy you consider the current leaders and the population. Jaina has no trust in them at all anymore, and I don't blame her. She could be wrong, but one thing she isn't is crazy or irrational. And of course, if it doesn't work out in the long run, many more Alliance lives will be lost than if you finish them off now.

I never argued that, though she is a bit hard focused on vengeance, which is understandable, but still dangerous nonetheless. It depends on many circumstances if it will be worse in the future or not, if the horde races openly rebel after a few years of occupation I disagree, that could hit home hard, since those rebels might actually think people like Garrosh might have been right about the Alliance all along.

The leaders that would most likely keep their word are

Vol'jin, Lor'themar, Thrall and Baine

Sylvanas and Gallywix can't be trusted and one of them will be contained according to Varian.

Last edited by Combatbulter; 2013-09-13 at 04:02 PM.

He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

I never argued that, though she is a bit hard focused on vengeance, which is understandable, but still dangerous nonetheless. It depends on many circumstances if it will be worse in the future or not, if the horde races openly rebel after a few years of occupation I disagree, that could hit home hard, since those rebels might actually think people like Garrosh might have been right about the Alliance all along.

Which is a change how? The common orc/troll/blood elf was always behind Garrosh where the Alliance was concerned. Just look at Theramore; the soldiers, of all races, were cheering and hollering when the mana bomb went off. It wasn't until he started victimizing the other races in favor of the orcs that their opinion of him changed, but that doesn't mean they thought any better of the Alliance. And after the Siege, that will certainly not have changed for the better.

The orcs especially are going to have a large minority who still consider Garrosh the 'true' Warchief. The same sort of thing that hamstrung Thrall's efforts (such as there were, and what there was of it) at keeping the peace. And if he couldn't stand up to those malcontents, why would Vol'jin, who's not even an orc, do any better?

Which is a change how? The common orc/troll/blood elf was always behind Garrosh where the Alliance was concerned. Just look at Theramore; the soldiers, of all races, were cheering and hollering when the mana bomb went off. It wasn't until he started victimizing the other races in favor of the orcs that their opinion of him changed, but that doesn't mean they thought any better of the Alliance. And after the Siege, that will certainly not have changed for the better.

There's a difference between utter hatred and cheering on a military victory, these people assaulted the enemy and lost friends there, so I can understand why they cheered once the city was blown to bits, usually the other races didn't go out of their way to kill alliance unless ordered to do so, my point is that this very mindset could change, through prolonged occupation, while it might decrease during a prolonged amount mutual agreed peace.

The orcs especially are going to have a large minority who still consider Garrosh the 'true' Warchief. The same sort of thing that hamstrung Thrall's efforts (such as there were, and what there was of it) at keeping the peace. And if he couldn't stand up to those malcontents, why would Vol'jin, who's not even an orc, do any better?

Because most of those orcs are dead, they are right now in no position to be a global threat, not to mention Thrall is back and has more free time to keep the few that remain in check.

He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

She stood by and let Arthas raze Strathholme. She assaulted her own king - and you, if you were there - at the battle for the uncdercity. (Casting frost nova and freezing you in place? That's assault. That's Lèse-majesté. That's off-with-your-head.

She's worthless. For that matter, Wrynn has never done a single thing that impressed me.

There's a difference between utter hatred and cheering on a military victory, these people assaulted the enemy and lost friends there, so I can understand why they cheered once the city was blown to bits, usually the other races didn't go out of their way to kill alliance unless ordered to do so, my point is that this very mindset could change, through prolonged occupation, while it might decrease during a prolonged amount mutual agreed peace.

We had such a prolonged period of peace. Right from the Battle of Mount Hyjal to the Cataclysm. Yeah, that sure decreased their need to kill Alliance. -_- Tell that to the Sentinels that were skinned and nailed to a tree. Or the crowds of orcs that were celebrating. Or Thrall who refused to do shit about it or even apologize. Garrosh gave the masses what they wanted, simple as that.

Originally Posted by Combatbulter

Because most of those orcs are dead, they are right now in no position to be a global threat, not to mention Thrall is back and has more free time to keep the few that remain in check.

The entire Horde is right now in no position to be a global threat. It would probably be a good idea to keep it that way, and not give them the chance to weasel their way back to relevance. And Thrall couldn't handle a shot of raspberry schnaps, let alone a revanchist resurgence among the orcs.

We had such a prolonged period of peace. Right from the Battle of Mount Hyjal to the Cataclysm. Yeah, that sure decreased their need to kill Alliance. -_- Tell that to the Sentinels that were skinned and nailed to a tree. Or the crowds of orcs that were celebrating. Or Thrall who refused to do shit about it or even apologize. Garrosh gave the masses what they wanted, simple as that.

Twilight hammer ring any bells? They did that stuff on purpose in order to create tensions and they succeeded quite well. The orcs were starving and starving people are not nice if they think the people who died, denied them what they desperately needed, just look at the human refugees in Velen's short story, they called the Draenei demons and tried to kill them.

The entire Horde is right now in no position to be a global threat. It would probably be a good idea to keep it that way, and not give them the chance to weasel their way back to relevance. And Thrall couldn't handle a shot of raspberry schnaps, let alone a revanchist resurgence among the orcs.

That is not quite correct, even now the Alliance would still need at least a year to subdue the tauren alone, according to wrathion, so they are still one of the most dominant factions on the planet, yes Thrall doesn't have all his people under control, but no one has, I mean just look at Varian, he was unable to reign his nobles in and as such has a civil war on his hands that lasted 14 years now, with no real end in sight or Moira, Tyrande, Lor'themar, Jaina, Sylvanas... you get the picture.

He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

While not evil, she her wording of dismantle made it sound like she wanted to cut off its head before they can raise to do anything again, basically destroy them. She isn't so short sighted that the Horde racial leaders would sit there and allow that to happen without bloodshed. Even Anduin was like "wtf" cause he knew if Varian did was Jaina wanted it would be VERY bad. That cinematic alone makes me wish they could do just story and not worry about gameplay stuff cause I want to see Jaina's reaction and where she goes from there. I would love to see Taran Zhu and the Shado Pan show up again when the Legion comes. I think he and the faction are interesting, but sadly we won't probably hear from them ever again.

Twilight hammer ring any bells? They did that stuff on purpose in order to create tensions and they succeeded quite well. The orcs were starving and starving people are not nice if they think the people who died, denied them what they desperately needed, just look at the human refugees in Velen's short story, they called the Draenei demons and tried to kill them.

There's always some excuse, isn't there? The bottom line is, the Horde has been hostile from the start; warmongering thugs who consider "they have something we want" as a perfectly good reason to kill people and take their stuff. And that did not change one iota during the entire time before Garrosh pulled the trigger on full-scale war; if anything it got worse. They were kept in check only by Thrall, and only partially at that; the Warsong in Ashenvale and the Broken Front are only some examples where they slipped the leash.

Experience has shown that expecting the Horde to become a peaceful neighbor that won't jump you the instant you let your guard down is a fool's hope. Jaina held onto that hope longer than anyone else, that's why she's such a hardliner now; it hit her far harder when that hope was finally crushed under the weight of reality.

Of course, that's mostly about the orcs, and to a lesser extent the trolls. The Forsaken too, but they consider everyone living the enemy, anyway, alliance of convenience notwithstanding. But for some stupid reason the orcs somehow became the core of the Horde despite the fact they shouldn't have had the numbers for it, so what they want goes apparently.

Originally Posted by Combatbulter

That is not quite correct, even now the Alliance would still need at least a year to subdue the tauren alone, according to wrathion, so they are still one of the most dominant factions on the planet, yes Thrall doesn't have all his people under control, but no one has, I mean just look at Varian, he was unable to reign his nobles in and as such has a civil war on his hands that lasted 14 years now, with no real end in sight or Moira, Tyrande, Lor'themar, Jaina, Sylvanas... you get the picture.

Even if Wrathion is right, the tauren were probably the race least affected by the civil war, them and the Forsaken. In particular, the orcs and trolls took high casualties both from Garrosh's persecution and the in the fighting.

There's also a difference between being hard to subdue, and being able to project power outside your own lands. The tauren would be difficult to permanently defeat, but that's in part due to the fact that their capital is an impregnable fortress, second only to Teldrassil in terms of defensibility. But while it would be a tough nut to crack, at the same time they would be unable to come to the aid of the orcs and trolls.

Twilight hammer ring any bells? They did that stuff on purpose in order to create tensions and they succeeded quite well. The orcs were starving and starving people are not nice if they think the people who died, denied them what they desperately needed, just look at the human refugees in Velen's short story, they called the Draenei demons and tried to kill them.

That is not quite correct, even now the Alliance would still need at least a year to subdue the tauren alone, according to wrathion, so they are still one of the most dominant factions on the planet, yes Thrall doesn't have all his people under control, but no one has, I mean just look at Varian, he was unable to reign his nobles in and as such has a civil war on his hands that lasted 14 years now, with no real end in sight or Moira, Tyrande, Lor'themar, Jaina, Sylvanas... you get the picture.

Wrathion, as proud black dragon, would like to see the Alliance conquer and subdue the Tauren and other Horde nations. However, that's not what the Alliance would likely do. If the Horde leadership got killed/captured during the SoO (now that would be a bloody battle), it would take time for the Horde to reorganize. So the Alliance would probably have to confront each race separately before they do. No need to subdue the Tauren or any other race if you can contain them. Mulgore can easily be contained since there is only one entrance. Tauren are not the kind to wage a war to the bitter end. They would probably try to negociate peace with the Alliance before it comes to that. It would take years, but containment is not that costy. But you have to control the pass to Mulgore first, which could not be easy... But feasable.

Durotar lies in ruins and is in disarray, so a strong military presence to control the harbour is enough to control the land. Of course, they would need to destroy the Forsaken/Blood Elf fleet there first. Difficult but certainly not impossible. Put a tower or two at the end of the canyon and you control trade and transport there. Crossroads is the key of Northern Barrens. It could not hold alone against a determined attack from the Alliance. It's position is even weaker than Razor Hill.

Once Kalimdor is controlled, the Forsaken and Blood Elves would likely abandon the Horde. The Forsaken have no strong ties to it anyway. I wonder how they would do without Sylvanas. Although I think that if an Horde leader could get away, it's her. But in any way, she won't lift her little finger to rally the Horde and will try to fight the Alliance alone. The Blood Elves would hold a grudge against the Alliance. If Lorthemar is imprisonned, they will probably negociate the return of the Regent Lord and make their peace (albeit a cold one) with the Alliance.

The Goblins would pose no threat at all. They have no honour, and would probably acclaim Varian for killing/capturing Galliwyx, their slaver. They would fall on their knees, beg Varian to spare Azshara and make some trade offers.

Already it seems that containment is Varian's goal. He wants to rebuild some fortifications near Theramore and reclaim and cleanse Gilneas to contain Sylvanas. He would need to stop the Forsaken in Arathi too... Stromgarde would be a good fortress. With a strong presence in Gilneas, Stromgarde and Aerie Peaks, the Alliance would have a strong line of defence against the Forsaken. One can always dream. I doubt we'll see Stromgarde back. But it would make for a good story.

You don't know that she didn't, and it doesn't matter what she said, her parents are "RESPONSIBLE" for her, and as "RESPONSIBLE" parents they protected their child, fuck the little boy or your feelings.

Well, I personally prefer that Jaina resigns of the Kirin Tor, or at least of her leading position. Jaina needs rest and tranquility with her lover only for a time.
Obviously the Horde has the right to form their own magic faction, although they already have it: the Sunreavers.

The post of leader of the Kirin Tor should be left to someone with more experience. And I choose Khadgar, assuming that he swears allegiance to the Alliance, as it is unquestionably that both Dalaran as the Kirin Tor will remain with the Alliance as have been always ...

Well, I personally prefer that Jaina resigns of the Kirin Tor, or at least of her leading position. Jaina needs rest and tranquility with her lover.
Obviously the Horde has the right to form their own magic faction, although they already have it: the Sunreavers.

The post of leader of the Kirin Tor should be left to someone with more experience. And I choose Khadgar, assuming that he swears allegiance to the Alliance, as it is unquestionably that both Dalaran as the Kirin Tor will remain with the Alliance as have been always ...

Uh, why? Now the war's gone 'cold' again, the Kirin Tor can go back to it's scholarly core purpose and she can get back to the books. Why does she need to relinquish control to meet out some 'girly girl' stereotype as a housewife?

She's not that anymore, and frankly I'm glad they've actually decided to flesh out a female alliance leader as something more than a stupid soft-headed bimbo. For that reason more than any she needs to not die.

Uh, why? Now the war's gone 'cold' again, the Kirin Tor can go back to it's scholarly core purpose and she can get back to the books. Why does she need to relinquish control to meet out some 'girly girl' stereotype as a housewife?

She's not that anymore, and frankly I'm glad they've actually decided to flesh out a female alliance leader as something more than a stupid soft-headed bimbo. For that reason more than any she needs to not die.

My comment was not meant to imply that Jaina should pass to the background, what I meant is that after all that has happened, maybe she should rest for a while, without responsabilities ... in relation to Dave Kosak's tweet.

My comment was not meant to imply that Jaina should pass to the background, what I meant is that after all that has happened, maybe she should rest for a while, without responsabilities ... in relation to Dave Kosak's tweet.

No, you said she should resign and go live with her lover. That isn't taking a break.