I'm curious about the different stages of development within the 1st stage spiritual, and maybe the transitioning from 3rd individuated into 1st spiritual. I have noticed particularly that some people have a hard time living "in life" when shifting from an identification with the ego to more of an awareness of the soul/source. My question is, if someone is having this crisis, does it mean they are in the very early stages of 1st spiritual, or maybe transitioning from individuated 3rd? In contrast, if someone is feeling this shift (from ego to soul), and although feels existential anxiety at times, has a deep inner "knowing" and "trust," and therefore is more able to engage in life's choices, does it mean that this person has developed deeper into spiritual 1st?

Also, around this evolutionary level I am curious how a packed 12th house would make a difference. For example, could someone be very deeply within the 1st spiritual but having a deeper crisis with living "in life" due to the strong 12th house? I understand the whole chart etc makes a difference but was wondering in general.

Finally, with a strong 12th house (around individuated 3rd/spiritual 1st), I am curious about what the remedy is for someone who simply cannot seem to find that confidence that allows them to commit to firm choices. I feel that this person would need to connect to a spiritual path or inner spiritual guide in order to develop trust? My question is though, what is someone has tried this over and over, and still can't find that clarity or trust? Of course, again the whole chart is needed, but I'm wondering if there is some general application, such as embracing the 6th house polarity, and maybe taking things (actions) one small step at a time, etc.

I'm curious about the different stages of development within the 1st stage spiritual, and maybe the transitioning from 3rd individuated into 1st spiritual. I have noticed particularly that some people have a hard time living "in life" when shifting from an identification with the ego to more of an awareness of the soul/source. My question is, if someone is having this crisis, does it mean they are in the very early stages of 1st spiritual, or maybe transitioning from individuated 3rd? In contrast, if someone is feeling this shift (from ego to soul), and although feels existential anxiety at times, has a deep inner "knowing" and "trust," and therefore is more able to engage in life's choices, does it mean that this person has developed deeper into spiritual 1st?

Great questions. I am still learning also, but I feel led to share my understanding.First, you are of course right that one needs the specific context of the soul at this juncture of transition from individuated to spiritual or at whatever stage.

I get the sense a generality may be that one who is new/just coming into 1st spiritual - the precipice which they are standing on, the unknown dark abyss that lays ahead, is a letting go of this individual sense of self(ego) and identity which defines the past(3rd stage individuated) from which they are coming from(their past) In this archetypal crises, to fall back to the light of the known past is to revert back to old ways/patterns/habits which were providing a sense of security to the individual they once were. So, for to then continue these past patterns which have outlived there evolutionary usefulness, is in affect to avoid evolution and growth. The crisis point, in this case, is seen by observing the nature of the old habits, patterns, lifestyle having their root in egocentric individuated reality which leads to a further sense of inner emptiness and disorientation, even though this emptiness is also being avoided by the seeming fullness of what they were once so comforted by; at least the notion and idea of these ways has the allure of the same fulfillment it once did, but if acted out again and repeated simply does not. These old ways are clearly of an individual nature.

I think you are right on because living "in life" has been(the past) the fully blossomed gifts of their own unique creative self, and now continuing to life this way repeatedly leads to disorientation(12th) and disillusionment in 'life'. Of course, one could have a hard time continuing the shift from ego to soul at any point in the journey.

Also, around this evolutionary level I am curious how a packed 12th house would make a difference. For example, could someone be very deeply within the 1st spiritual but having a deeper crisis with living "in life" due to the strong 12th house? I understand the whole chart etc makes a difference but was wondering in general.

I would say Yes, the emphasised 12th will always reveal that whatever the ego consciousness has identified with relative to the past, be it of spiritual or individual in nature, will reach a point where it simply needs to dissolve. There is certainly a potential for great disillusionment in this case. Having one's whole sense of spiritual identity dissolve is certainly a major crisis. The relativity of how 'deep' the crisis is most reflected in the nature of the soul and degree of embracing or resisting evolution. The packed 12th alone, as I understand it, will not reflect a deeper spiritual crisis than some other signature/emphasis may. So, a soul could have been fully embracing growth in their past and less so in the 'present' - the amount one is resisting or embracing their own evolution is not constant on the overall journey, so depth of crisis is always linked to the current orientation to embracing of resisting evolution, regardless of evolutionary stage. At least, this is my sense of this, I'd love to hear if this is not true.

Finally, with a strong 12th house (around individuated 3rd/spiritual 1st), I am curious about what the remedy is for someone who simply cannot seem to find that confidence that allows them to commit to firm choices. I feel that this person would need to connect to a spiritual path or inner spiritual guide in order to develop trust? My question is though, what is someone has tried this over and over, and still can't find that clarity or trust? Of course, again the whole chart is needed, but I'm wondering if there is some general application, such as embracing the 6th house polarity, and maybe taking things (actions) one small step at a time, etc.

Heidi, I have no idea how to attempt to answer these questions without knowing more. One thing I learned is that the individuated stage one 'carves out' their own unique path and the transition to spiritual is largely different in that the ego/soul actually will orient to one spiritual path/way of life that most resonates for them. This shift alone reflects a humbling of the ego because there is no longer this need to have individually created this 'way'. It is the shift to simply have one way that most resonates. Now, I only have questions about what you are asking about. I mean, what are they trying over and over? Is it specific spiritual ways? The 12th house emphasis does reflect simplicity, so perhaps they have some conditioned idea of what spirituality is that they simply can not attain? What is not being trusted? Are the spiritaul paths linked to any patriarchal conditioning? I must say I personally can relate to non resonance with so many spiritual paths and ways and feel I fall into this cusp entry myself. I only share this now because, having an emphasized pisces/neptune/12th, I have really appreciated the simplicity of the 1-2 meditation which has been shared on this message board. One of the simplest ways to know God. What a great way to embark on the spiritual journey when other paths and ways are non resonant. I do not have an expectation that you share more or answer my questions, unless so led. If anyone sees misunderstanding in what I've shared and has the time, the learning is always a blessing.I pray this is somehow helpful to read. Goddess Bless,Bradley

Thanks for sharing your insights, they were indeed very helpful. I realize that my question may seem a little broad and know that EA tends to avoid generality that has no specific chart example.

In any case, I was curious how the different development levels within the sub-stages (for eg, spiritual 1st/individuated 3rd) play out. I sometimes find that the lack of clarity, disillusionment, denial, and challenges with making committed life choices (as associated with 12th house), may make someone appear to be in the spiritual state when in fact, they are more individuated 3rd. In the community in which I live almost everyone calls themselves "spiritual" and is engaged in some kind of spiritual practice. However, when it comes to making choices based in integrity, humility, and trust in source, they are lacking or seemingly in denial.

Most of the EA writings about individuated 3rd mention individuals that have some unique gift that they manifest to bring the consensus forward etc. But many people I ponder are individuated 3rd are not particularly gifted to this level. I realize this is just a portion of individuated 3rd and in this sub-stage alone there are various levels of development.

Apologies for not finding the previous posts on this topic as I'm sure many of you have been over this to death. But from my understanding so far, the difference between individuated 3rd and spiritual 1st is that the individual in individuated 3rd still has some ego attachment and is more likely to be trying a variety of spiritual paths rather than implementing just one. Also, my own experience has been that those in spiritual 1st have an energy about them that is in total acceptance of others, humble, and able to feel and react to the needs of others foremost before getting sucked into any personal drama, conflict, or conditioning. There is almost a quiet, unassuming quality to the individual that offers help and love that often goes unnoticed; which is natural and fine to the spiritual 1st.

So back to my original question.. Does the existential anxiety occurring around the shift from ego identification to soul/source identification happen more in the transition from individuated 3rd to spiritual 1st? Is it more individuated 3rd? Is it possible early spiritual 1st? Does a soul that displays a deep humility, trust in source, and ability to be of benefit to others even when experiencing deep existential anxiety more towards the middle/end of spiritual 1st?

I would really appreciate anyone's thoughts/feedback whatever it might be

Finally, with a strong 12th house (around individuated 3rd/spiritual 1st), I am curious about what the remedy is for someone who simply cannot seem to find that confidence that allows them to commit to firm choices. I feel that this person would need to connect to a spiritual path or inner spiritual guide in order to develop trust? My question is though, what is someone has tried this over and over, and still can't find that clarity or trust? Of course, again the whole chart is needed, but I'm wondering if there is some general application, such as embracing the 6th house polarity, and maybe taking things (actions) one small step at a time, etc.

BlessingsHeidi

Hi Heidi,

Interesting questions. As with Bradley, I don't have any definitive answers. One thing I thought about with regard to the above quote, and thinking about my own experiences with Pluto/Uranus in 12th, is that there may be no remedies in the way I think you're thinking about it. A couple of thoughts on this: 12th house/Neptune/Pisces is a culminating archetype, meaning it is an archetype that is about release and letting go. Possibly all the efforts of hooking up with and abandoning various paths is part of that process - necessary if painful (particularly to watch); perhaps a means (and perhaps a necessary one) to at some point finally being able to simply give up one's desperate efforts to make some fantasy work out. Another thought (and this as well as the last is simply my own contemplations on this; I don't recall seeing any of this in the JWG material) - anyway, the other thought is that Pisces/Neptune/12th is the archetype of unconditional love and it is in a natural trine to Scorpio/Pluto/8th - commitment/betrayal. So some of what might be happening with an individual might be a reflection of some past wounding arising from commitment/betrayal. Accepting and allowing and trusting the person - to let them try whatever it is they are needing to try (perhaps compulsively - Scorpio trine), to trust them - and in so doing demonstrating unconditional love. I have found, with myself, that this has been the best approach with regard to others desiring to help.

As you suggest, of course, the whole chart does need to be considered. In my chart there's a lot of cardinal energy, so a lot of 2 steps forward, 1 step back, that could account for at least a part of my particular road/needs around this..........

Also, here's a link to a thread where we talked about the stages. It doesn't address your questions in any direct way, and you may already have a more advanced understanding of the stages than I had when we were discussing this, but I found the discussion helpful for me when I was first attempting to understand this subject. Here's the link: http://schoolofevolutionaryastrology.com/forum/index.php/topic,181.0.html

I hope this is helpful, and I defer to those with more experience and with true authority on the subject.

Thanks for your reply, and also posting that link to the long discussion about the evolutionary states. There was plenty of information about the transition from 3rd individuated to spiritual 1st that was very helpful!

I especially found it helpful that you reminded me of the culminating/letting go aspect of the 12th house. This fits along with Bradley's comments about the precipice between letting go of the individual sense of self and the unknown dark abyss that lays ahead. I feel then the strong 12th house/Neptune signature could very well be a strong additional indicator of someone that is transitioning between states.

Your comments about the trine from the 12th to the 8th also reminded me of the natural letting go and dissolving (12th) of desires and behavioral patterns that are limiting and further growth (8th).