^^^ no that's not true at all. You can definitely help your body to lose more fat than muscle by lifting weights and eating adequate amounts of protein. This should preserve most of your muscle at a decent caloric deficit i.e. the recommending 500 calories a day (if you want to lose weight)

Hi Pbarrow, i am interested in this book.I also saw the author has 2 other books..the hard body workout plan and new rules..I am 62, 5'9" 175lbs and do resistance training for upper 2 days a week and occasional squats without weights.i stopped doing cardio last year.i am in good shape though I would like to be better but am afraid too much weightlifting will hurt my tennis/lower back history among some other things..Do you think it's good for my age..my email is comeback@safe-mail.net if you can give me some detailed info,,thanks

Ok guys i started the testosterone book diet 4 days ago that PBarrow referenced (mostly protein/low carb) and feel great. Also tracking it on myfitnesspal.com.Really started at 180lbs but lost a few lbs already..Feel much better and less tired. Want to get down to 160...will post my results and hopefully a picture

I'm doing the same. Just using myfitnesspal has made me a lot more conscious about what I'm eating. At least for now my motto is "if I can't figure out the nutritional content to enter into myfitnesspal, I don't eat it". Also reading the T book but still have about half way to go.

The biggest question mark for me is still in regards to balancing the weights, tennis and rest. The book suggests working out 3 times a week and NOT doing any strenuous exercise on the other days i.e. you MUST get the proper rest to see the results. I know this isn't the first time I've heard that, and I'm sure it's true.

It just seems like working out with weights - and getting all the benefits that comes with it - is in direct conflict with playing competitive tennis 3-5 times a week ...

Pbarrow - I think you said your workouts were twice a week and you play tennis 2-3 times a week or so, so while maybe this isn't ideal for muscle building, etc. it obviously works for you??

I'm doing the same. Just using myfitnesspal has made me a lot more conscious about what I'm eating. At least for now my motto is "if I can't figure out the nutritional content to enter into myfitnesspal, I don't eat it". Also reading the T book but still have about half way to go.

The biggest question mark for me is still in regards to balancing the weights, tennis and rest. The book suggests working out 3 times a week and NOT doing any strenuous exercise on the other days i.e. you MUST get the proper rest to see the results. I know this isn't the first time I've heard that, and I'm sure it's true.

It just seems like working out with weights - and getting all the benefits that comes with it - is in direct conflict with playing competitive tennis 3-5 times a week ...

Pbarrow - I think you said your workouts were twice a week and you play tennis 2-3 times a week or so, so while maybe this isn't ideal for muscle building, etc. it obviously works for you??

Great Limit, so far i love the diet and the tracking and not having hunger pangs, I did my first squats today and am playing a light singles match tomorrow. i must have read over 500 reviews from Amazon about the author's many books and it's overwhemingingly positive ...I think you're right about not doing this for 3-5 days of serious competition..Most pro's and serious competitive players do a bulk of strength training when being "off" for several weeks and concentrate on stretching and practicing when in tournaments. But it can be done on a modified basis (even with a week off). I remember Agassi was lifting on a modified schedule even during tournaments.

Taking off a week "here or there" isn't enough to implement a strength training program during such a short break though ...?

I'm a 4.5 player, and working on improving. I play in leagues, tourneys, ladders, and sometimes just a competitive match with a friend. I generally play 3-4 matches a week on average. What can I say ... I love tennis?

Taking off a week "here or there" isn't enough to implement a strength training program during such a short break though ...?

I'm a 4.5 player, and working on improving. I play in leagues, tourneys, ladders, and sometimes just a competitive match with a friend. I generally play 3-4 matches a week on average. What can I say ... I love tennis?

I get it Limit, You sound like a young guy..i am also a certified coach and trainer and tournament player but older now 62. You can raise your level even more but taking 4-6 weeks off from serious matches and just play less by hitting and keeping your form and timing..But also try to take off a full week sometimes and go heavier with the weights..Believe me even top pros like Federer/Nadal etc don't pick up a racket for a week sometimes to avoid burnout..By playing a lot of matches you will be very "match tough" but you will get stale after a while ..Play more doubles during your heavy workout phase. Sometimes you have to take a step back to move up and get even better.. Believe me you will never get worse. So have confidence in your game that you can take breaks from it..here is an example of a good "periodization" timeframe for tennis.http://www.optimumtennis.net/tennis-fitness-program.htm

I'm doing the same. Just using myfitnesspal has made me a lot more conscious about what I'm eating. At least for now my motto is "if I can't figure out the nutritional content to enter into myfitnesspal, I don't eat it". Also reading the T book but still have about half way to go.

The biggest question mark for me is still in regards to balancing the weights, tennis and rest. The book suggests working out 3 times a week and NOT doing any strenuous exercise on the other days i.e. you MUST get the proper rest to see the results. I know this isn't the first time I've heard that, and I'm sure it's true.

It just seems like working out with weights - and getting all the benefits that comes with it - is in direct conflict with playing competitive tennis 3-5 times a week ...

Pbarrow - I think you said your workouts were twice a week and you play tennis 2-3 times a week or so, so while maybe this isn't ideal for muscle building, etc. it obviously works for you??

Yes, I definetely focused on weights over winter, worked out twice a week intense weights and played only casual tennis, mostly doubles. I am just now starting to transition to more tennis and lower weights. Hoping to keep the new muscle and strength but won't go for any more gains.

Ok guys i started the testosterone book diet 4 days ago that PBarrow referenced (mostly protein/low carb) and feel great. Also tracking it on myfitnesspal.com.Really started at 180lbs but lost a few lbs already..Feel much better and less tired. Want to get down to 160...will post my results and hopefully a picture

Great to hear comeback, I look forward to following your progress. I wish I had taken a "before" picture now! I recently talked my doubles partner into reading the book and getting the app and he is also experiencing fast results. Should be a good season!

Thanks barrow, down to 173 lbs and FEELING GREAT and sleeping better..Luckily my wife is doing it with me and can make some no carb deserts which helps my original problems...just no grains and sugar..I was in good shape before but i can't wait for those abs to start showing..Can someone tell me how to post a picture?

You probably are training too hard causing you to burn off your muscle.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Anything you do will build some form of muscle. I remember an old saying "If you don't want to build muscle, don't get out of bed." So you don't have to worry about cardio/endurance work being a detriment. Look up pictures of michael chang's legs.

That was from endurance and explosive speed/power, not hypertrophy squats.

When you feel sore the following days after a work out. You're in extremely good fat burning mode. The body is burning energy rebuilding and recovering in this phase. Get plenty of rest, good food and sleep. And avoid over training.

If you don't address these and keep pushing through, you'll release the stress hormone cortizol which will cause you to burn off your muscle --which slows your metabolism then makes you put on fat--- So don't even think about starving yourself either...

As a trainer since 2006, I think you should consider focusing on training that compliments your tennis.

This is why people fail and TV shows like the biggest loser can milk the drama and stress factor which is weight loss and training. People go in circles wondering why they're not getting anywhere, it creates anxiousness - then they buy into a fad...or just give up.

Feel free to ask anything else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by limitup

OK I know it's almost impossible to lose fat and build muscle at the same time ... and I'm sure the ~16 hours of intense tennis/cardio a week isn't great for trying to build up muscle either ... but I'm looking for some expert guidance on how to best achieve my goals, which are:

1. Lose about 5-10 more lbs of fat
2. Get stronger and gain some size
3. Continue to play competitive tennis

The problem is that I live and play in sunny so cal, and I have no offseason when it comes to tennis. When I'm not playing in leagues and tournaments, I'm still playing competitive matches against friends, practicing, etc.

Right now I'm trying to do everything at the same time and as you can imagine it's not going great lol.

I've pretty much maintained my current weight of 178 for the past month. I assume I'm still losing a little fat and maybe building a tiny build of muscle, but maybe not. The big problem is my recovery from both tennis and lifting too. I'm constantly sore, and after a good leg day it really screws up my tennis the next 1-2 days.

I don't NEED to lose another 10 lbs of fat, so I guess at this point that's the lowest priority. If I lose 10 lbs I'd be pretty "ripped" so even losing another 5 lbs would be awesome (I've lost about 25 in the past year).

I do need to work on getting stronger and "beefing up" a bit. I just need to get a little stronger overall to help stay injury free as I take my game to the next level ... and a little more strength and size is always welcome too.

Do I just need to focus 110% on losing the weight first (if I really want to) over the next month or so, and then once I'm at my target weight just start lifting again and eat whatever I figure out is my maintenance calories at that point?

Or I could obviously say screw it and start eating a little more now and not worry about these last 5-10 lbs (which have proven to be hard to get rid of).

In the long run, do I need to force myself to have some kind of offseason, use periodization, etc. to do this stuff right?

(FYI I'm a 39 yr old male, 5'11" @ 178 lbs in relatively good shape)

__________________
Yes, we know it's all about the technique. But if your racquet collapses every time you volley..you need to add some lead to it...

Anything you do will build some form of muscle. I remember an old saying "If you don't want to build muscle, don't get out of bed." So you don't have to worry about cardio/endurance work being a detriment.

While technically you're probably right, doing "anything" will not result in the increased strength that most competitive athletes need and are looking for. If that was the case, athletes wouldn't need to workout ...

Quote:

Look up pictures of michael chang's legs. That was from endurance and explosive speed/power, not hypertrophy squats.

Um, Michael Chang did INTENSE weight training. You don't build large powerful muscles in your legs just by running around playing tennis. All moderately successful pro tennis players do serious weight training.

Thanks barrow, down to 173 lbs and FEELING GREAT and sleeping better..Luckily my wife is doing it with me and can make some no carb deserts which helps my original problems...just no grains and sugar..I was in good shape before but i can't wait for those abs to start showing..Can someone tell me how to post a picture?

First you have to host your image somewhere like Flickr or Picasa. Upload there and copy the URL of the photo (often ii is the "share" command). In the forum when posting click on the yellow image box at top of the editor and it will ask you for the URL, just paste there. Simple?!?

You probably are training too hard causing you to burn off your muscle.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Anything you do will build some form of muscle. I remember an old saying "If you don't want to build muscle, don't get out of bed." So you don't have to worry about cardio/endurance work being a detriment. Look up pictures of michael chang's legs.

That was from endurance and explosive speed/power, not hypertrophy squats.

When you feel sore the following days after a work out. You're in extremely good fat burning mode. The body is burning energy rebuilding and recovering in this phase. Get plenty of rest, good food and sleep. And avoid over training.

If you don't address these and keep pushing through, you'll release the stress hormone cortizol which will cause you to burn off your muscle --which slows your metabolism then makes you put on fat--- So don't even think about starving yourself either...

As a trainer since 2006, I think you should consider focusing on training that compliments your tennis.

This is why people fail and TV shows like the biggest loser can milk the drama and stress factor which is weight loss and training. People go in circles wondering why they're not getting anywhere, it creates anxiousness - then they buy into a fad...or just give up.

Feel free to ask anything else.

Training too hard causing you to burn off muscle......

Anything you do will build muscle? Sure to a point. Like if you're in a COMA for 10 years and are severely atrophied, the simple act of attempting to move your limbs will build muscle. But there is a limit to what normal activity can do to build muscle. It's all about adaptation, and if there's nothing to adapt to that hasn't already been covered, there's not gonna be much muscle growth

DOMS is now an indicator of being in a "fat burning mode"?
PLEASE provide a source for this, because I smell ********

Cortisol is going to get released to some degree no matter what you do, it's catabolic in nature but i'm pretty sure it doesn't specifically target muscle mass. So it can actually HELP burn fat (but muscle is another victim)

Anything you do will build muscle? Sure to a point. Like if you're in a COMA for 10 years and are severely atrophied, the simple act of attempting to move your limbs will build muscle. But there is a limit to what normal activity can do to build muscle. It's all about adaptation, and if there's nothing to adapt to that hasn't already been covered, there's not gonna be much muscle growth

DOMS is now an indicator of being in a "fat burning mode"?
PLEASE provide a source for this, because I smell ********

Cortisol is going to get released to some degree no matter what you do, it's catabolic in nature but i'm pretty sure it doesn't specifically target muscle mass. So it can actually HELP burn fat (but muscle is another victim)

Feel free to look it up yourself....

The body's priority is to hold onto fat around the organs and will happily shed muscle to do it. You have to lose fat "under the radar" to do it right.
I've done 7 years in the fitness industry so far. I've even worked and gave lectures on carnival cruiseships.
This is me:
CERT III & IV Fitness
CERT III Group Exercise (Including Les Mills Step, Pump, Aerobics, Yoga ect)
CERT III Matwork Pilates
Level 1 Strength & Conditioning Coach
Dual Diploma of Fitness/Sport & Rec (Left in the final month to work with Carnival Cruiselines - Naughty I know, it was only law and marketing subjects I walked out on to take the Carnival Job at the time...)

I could dig up my text books and lecture notes... but I can't really be bothered trying to back up every bit of advice from someone outside that doesn't like what I say. If you don't like it, don't do it. Keep believing what suits you. Yes I could mention more about adaptation (including neurally), lipolysis, the fight or flight response and being in a catabolic state and even using insulin spikes to offset it. I could go into so much detail. But then that would be information over load for the person asking and they'll get complacent to try anything I say.

__________________
Yes, we know it's all about the technique. But if your racquet collapses every time you volley..you need to add some lead to it...

While technically you're probably right, doing "anything" will not result in the increased strength that most competitive athletes need and are looking for. If that was the case, athletes wouldn't need to workout ...

Um, Michael Chang did INTENSE weight training. You don't build large powerful muscles in your legs just by running around playing tennis. All moderately successful pro tennis players do serious weight training.

I agree with sports specific. In fact i think I said that. Please quote all of it next time.

Michael chang wouldn't have been doing 10 reps of hypertrophy or 1 rep max's too often. The first one would've worked on the slow twitch fibres (of that movement pattern) of his muscles and that would've slowed him down. Going for strength training and 1rm's wouldn't have had enough endurance for him to develop either. He would've been working on plyometric and interval training to suit for his game. And that requires great endurance too.

I'm sorry to rub people the wrong way and break stereotypical/old school coach beliefs...but I rehab people in sport. Male tennis players normally are among the worst that don't like to be told they're doing it wrong. "Hitting the gym" is not going to help as much as people think. Ironically pilates and interval training is probably the way to go for it.

__________________
Yes, we know it's all about the technique. But if your racquet collapses every time you volley..you need to add some lead to it...

Last edited by mikeespinmusic : 03-12-2013 at 05:27 PM.
Reason: Missed a couple of things.

The body's priority is to hold onto fat around the organs and will happily shed muscle to do it. You have to lose fat "under the radar" to do it right.
I've done 7 years in the fitness industry so far. I've even worked and gave lectures on carnival cruiseships.
This is me:
CERT III & IV Fitness
CERT III Group Exercise (Including Les Mills Step, Pump, Aerobics, Yoga ect)
CERT III Matwork Pilates
Level 1 Strength & Conditioning Coach
Dual Diploma of Fitness/Sport & Rec (Left in the final month to work with Carnival Cruiselines - Naughty I know, it was only law and marketing subjects I walked out on to take the Carnival Job at the time...)

I could dig up my text books and lecture notes... but I can't really be bothered trying to back up every bit of advice from someone outside that doesn't like what I say. If you don't like it, don't do it. Keep believing what suits you. Yes I could mention more about adaptation (including neurally), lipolysis, the fight or flight response and being in a catabolic state and even using insulin spikes to offset it. I could go into so much detail. But then that would be information over load for the person asking and they'll get complacent to try anything I say.

Lets see here, one giant appeal to authority argument, one regular ad hominem, and something that looks like a reverse ad hominem (or maybe that's still the appeal to authority)

Your list of credentials does nothing for your argument, you don't even specify which group you've received them from (i.e. NSCA, ACSM, ACE, NASM etc) so that does nothing to convince me that your word is something to be taken without evidence

EDIT 2: I realize you might not be from the USA, so these organizations might have absolutely zero meaning to you

Didnt say I didn't like your argument, I said I smelled ********. Literally NOTHING i've ever come across describes DOMS as a "fat burning mode" brought on by workout. In fact everything points to the fact that DOMS is NOT NECESSARILY indicative of a "good workout" or that the lack of it means there's no further adaptation as you seem to have suggested.

I'm good on catabolic state, lipolysis, and the use of insulin spikes. That's all fine and dandy and your explanation would not be information overload, but I am requesting a source for your description of DOMs

EDIT: Regarding the too much work burning muscle off, what about olympic weightlifters who frequently train 6+ times a week? They're probably working a hell of a lot harder, longer, and more frequently than anyone in this thread, yet they don't lose their muscle. Or are you simply referring to lack of adequate nutrition resulting in loss of overall body mass