BILD: Mr. Kaczynski, Poland has a President, and
Poland has a Prime Minister – but you count as the true ruler of
the country. Is that correct?

Kaczynski: There is no “ruler” in our country.
Poland is a democracy. Our Prime Minister leads the government;
the President is fulfilling his tasks. But there is a little bit
left for the party leader.

BILD: Why don’t you run for Prime Minister
yourself – the office you already held from 2006-2007?

Kaczynski: The party leadership decided on Beata
Szydlo. I subordinated myself to that decision. And it was the
right one, because we came into power, after all.

BILD: You do not only count as Poland’s true
ruler, but also as a dark power that wants to conquer the entire
country …

Kaczynski: Unfortunately, manipulation and
defamation are part of the bad manners that have been prevailing
in Poland’s politics for ten years now. Even back then the
opposition used its freedom in order to accuse us of striving for
a dictatorship. There were strikes and rallies against our
government that were supported by many media. In the end, we
offered to hold reelections, and we lost. This has got nothing to
do with a “dictatorship”. Not back then, and not today. I no
longer take such false accusations seriously.

BILD: The way you treat the media and the
independent constitutional court is heavily criticized in Poland,
but also abroad. The President of the EU Parliament, Martin
Schulz, even accuses you of a “coup”. Do you enjoy the role of
Europe’s bogeyman?

Daniel
Biskup

Kaczynski: I do not enjoy it, but it amuses me,
as this criticism has nothing to do with the current state of our
country. The accusation that our democracy is in danger applies,
if at all, to the time of our predecessor government under Prime
Minister Tusk. Back then, his party seized control over all
political positions in the country. My party was systematically
fought against, excluded, and ignored, also by the judiciary and
the media. But no word came from Mr. Schulz and others in
Brussels.

BILD: It sometimes seems as if your role models
for the buildup of a new Poland are politicians like Hungary’s
Prime Minister Viktor Orban, Turkey’s President Erdogan or even
Vladimir Putin …

Kaczynski: Wait a second! There might be many
similarities between Erdogan and Putin. We can see that in the
current developments, unfortunately. But Viktor Orban seriously
does not fit in that list. Or could you imagine banners on the
Red Square in Moscow saying: “We are ashamed because of Putin”?
There were such banners in Budapest. A single party is ruling in
Hungary, but democracy and the freedom of speech are still in
place. I could also ask you: is Bavaria a democracy? The CSU has
been ruling there for ages. So you could also ask: was
Franz-Josef Strauß a democrat?

Daniel
Biskup

BILD: In the West, there were media reports about the mayor of
Warsaw. She is concerned that, after the Pope’s visit to Krakow
in late July, there will be a wave of arrests against critics and
oppositionists. Is there anything true about these rumours?

Kaczynski: My dear editors, I can assure you
that these rumours are not true. In Poland, nobody is arrested or
persecuted for political reasons. This rumour also belongs to the
category of manipulation and defamation.

BILD: But it’s a fact that the EU Commission
officially launched a rule of law proceeding against Poland at
the beginning of the year – because of the government curtailing
the constitutional court’s rights. Are you not concerned about
your voting rights in the EU?

Kaczynski: These proceedings take place entirely
outside of the EU treaties. This is nothing but some fun work for
entertaining the EU Commission and its officials. Even the legal
advisors of the European Council think this proceeding goes
beyond the treaties. But we still remain in dialogue with the
Commission. By the way, our dialogue partner is EU Commissioner
Timmermans from the Netherlands – a country that does not even
have a constitutional court! It’s absurd. Our position therefore
remains clear: Poland is a sovereign state. We want the same
rights as all other EU countries. Nothing more, but nothing less,
either.

Kaczyński with Publishing Director BILD, Kai
Diekmann.Daniel
Biskup

BILD: What are the values that still tie Poland
to the EU today? Where do you see the differences with Brussels?

Kaczynski: Primarily, Warsaw and Brussels share
the central basic values of the EU: human dignity, democracy, and
the religious freedom of every single human being. We believe in
these values. There is also the buildup of a market economy and a
system that gives every member state the opportunity to catch up
economically with other countries. Poland does not want to remain
a net recipient of EU subsidies forever. On the contrary: we want
the right to develop in a fair market, and by this right, we want
to one day catch up with Germany in terms of welfare and economic
power. This will not take 100 years! And then many Poles who
emigrated will be able to return home.

BILD: And what separates the EU from Poland
these days?

Kaczynski: I do not want to talk of dividing
lines. We Poles are and will remain convinced Europeans. For us,
Europe is a community of the diversity of nations. No mishmash.
The diversity of our cultures is Europe’s greatest asset. We have
to preserve this asset. And any political intervention that
reduces this diversity is a loss to Europe.

BILD: Great Britain’s Brexit referendum shocked
Europe. Is such a referendum also conceivable in Poland?

Kaczynski: No! That would make no sense. 90
percent of the citizens would be against an exit. With respect to
Great Britain, I have a dream, by the way: that the Brits will
see that the EU is changing, and change their minds. And then
remain in the EU or return to the EU. I am not giving up hope.

BILD: It is not only Brexit that shakes the EU,
but also the turmoil in Turkey and Russia’s war against Ukraine.
Wouldn’t Europe have to close ranks much more in this difficult
situation?

Daniel
Biskup

Kaczynski: If what you’re saying is that Europe
should become a federal state, I ask you, being Germans: are you
willing to pay social benefits for all EU citizens? Does Germany
also want to take on the debts of all other EU states? For this
is the truth: there cannot be a federal state of Europe without
all citizens receiving the same benefits and rights.

The question is therefore rather: how do we optimise Europe? How
do we make sure that the rules we gave ourselves will also be
followed? How do we jointly fight bureaucracy and
over-regulation? Brexit was not a historical accident, after all.
It taught us where the EU’s real problems lie. And if we do not
solve them, we will not prevent the anti-European currents in
many EU countries, but rather encourage them.

BILD: So your solution is: less Europe. No
common currency, no EU army, no single EU government?

Kaczynski: More or less Europe – that’s the
wrong alternative! What we need is less centralism. The EU
treaties clearly promote an alliance of national states that, as
far as possible, maintain their own responsibilities. There is no
mention of a centralized state of Europe in the treaties. The EU
Commission’s politicking, however, is proof of a certain allergy
against this principle of national states and national
responsibilities.

Concerning the common currency: today, the euro is not worth it
for Poland. The reason why we survived the financial and economic
crisis quite well is that we have a national currency. This will
not change in the near future.

BILD: In a BILD interview from ten years ago,
you emphasized that Germans and Poles have to be good neighbours
– in their own and in Europe’s interest. Today, in Warsaw there
is often talk of a “German diktat” within Europe …

Kaczynski: Gentlemen, let’s be honest: there is
talk of that not only in Poland, but in the whole of Europe.
There are historic examples where a soft domination of certain
states worked well. For instance the US, who dominated the
Western alliance after World War II – with a giant army, an
enormous population, and its globally superior economic power.
This role is quite different for Germany today. The Germans are
indeed the economically and politically strongest power in
Europe. But their superiority does not equal the past and present
superiority of the Americans. Germany’s potential makes up about
20% of the EU’s overall economic power, including Great Britain.
The German army is by no means strong enough to guarantee the
security of the EU’s two endangered flanks – in the east and in
the south. So all that remains for Germany is partnerships with
its neighbours and other EU member states. Germany should stick
to that role. I think that Chancellor Merkel would perfectly
agree with this.

BILD: Germany as the leading power in Europe –
so far, this role was rather imposed on the Germans, for instance
in the euro debts crisis, in the Ukraine conflict …

Kaczynski: You must be joking! Who lent the
Greeks the most money? It was German banks, and for a long time,
they were profiting from it quite nicely. And concerning Ukraine:
back then, Poland also offered to negotiate at the crisis summit.
Germany declined this offer with thanks. This is why we stepped
back and did not mention the topic again.

BILD: Our peoples share a sorrowful history. How
important is Germany for Poland today?

Kaczynski: I would say: our history does not
connect us, it rather divides us. What connects us are our
neighbourhood and an enormous economic exchange of, by now, 100
billion euros per year. For Germany, Poland is now a more
important trade partner than Russia. With respect to history, our
peoples will require more time for the wounds to heal. But it is
also important to stick to the truth in accounting for the past.
This is not compatible with, for instance, TV movies such as “Our
mothers, our fathers” that try to partly shift the liability for
Nazi crimes to us Poles. This film told fairy tales about
antisemitism in the Polish Home Army, instead of showing how
gruesome the German occupation was and how heroic those people
were who fought against it. We have to object to this. We do not
want to deepen historical divides, but this truth – which is
difficult and still unknown to the Germans – has to enter the
general awareness. To but it briefly, we want a good neighbourly
relationship. But it has to be based on truth and mutual respect.

Daniel
Biskup

BILD: Good neighbourly relations, however, also entail sharing
burdens. What would have to happen for Poland to also take in
Syrian refugees?

Kaczynski: I cannot imagine any situation in
which this would happen. Poland has already taken in over one
million Ukrainians, and also approximately 100,000 Belarusians,
and tens of thousands of Chechens. At the moment, Poland would
also be willing to financially partake in sheltering refugees
near their home countries. I would like to hear from Chancellor
Merkel what she was thinking when opening the borders. I cannot
imagine at all what it was.

BILD: Ten years ago – back then you were
Poland’s Prime Minister – you visited Chancellor Angela Merkel in
Berlin. Would you vote for Ms. Merkel if you were a German
citizen?

Kaczynski: As a Pole, I can only repeat what my,
unfortunately deceased, brother Lech always said: Angela Merkel
is the best solution for Poland. And I believe he was right. I do
not have the right to vote in Germany. From a Polish perspective,
I say: it would be good if Ms. Merkel were reelected.

Read the original article on Bild. Copyright 2016. Follow Bild on Twitter.