Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 12:41 pmPosts: 14118Location: From some place in this area...

Something one needs to take into account in the "expert" debate is that mainstream theories (usually the official version) are immediately accepted without questioning by the most part of professionals. This only an extension of human behavior in general, it is not a privilege of science... By the way, science/knowledge can only advance by posing and answering questions, not preventing them (as it is the case with that attitude to promptly attacking anyone digging in the dirt...). Many experienced engineers were surprised (along with millions of TV spectators world wide) that morning...

_________________The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true Art and Science. - Albert Einstein

Something one needs to take into account in the "expert" debate is that mainstream theories (usually the official version) are immediately accepted without questioning by the most part of professionals. This only an extension of human behavior in general, it is not a privilege of science... By the way, science/knowledge can only advance by posing and answering questions, not preventing them (as it is the case with that attitude to promptly attacking anyone digging in the dirt...). Many experienced engineers were surprised (along with millions of TV spectators world wide) that morning...

I think you're right, but I get the impression that many truthers do the same and immediately accept the articles contradicting the official line. Blindly following either side of the argument is wrong, it seems to me.

Your mention of "attacking anyone digging in the dirt" is quite important. Yes, many people automatically lash out at people discussing the various theories relating to 9/11 truth; I don't think this is at all productive, and is hardly conducive to intelligent debate. The converse is true as well, though: it seems to me that many truthers do the same and lash out indiscriminately at anyone who dares support the official explanation. A faintly elitist, holier-than-thou attitude (something along the lines of "I'm intelligent enough to see the real truth, you poor deluded fools" - see Warren/Trendy's no-planes postings, for one) isn't conducive to intelligent debate either.

_________________"I don't think Pop Tarts have any place in our Lord's plans for the world."

Let them be Sharky, one day the truth will bite their asses and then they will remember you...

Yes, I will remember him as a Lost Soul.

And now for some wisdom from a hero of the 911Truth Movement, Jason Bermas:

“The firefighters ARE paid off.”

And yet even more insight into the workings of the world:

“I contend that we may have been to the Moon, not with rocket technology, but with something else and it's secret. Definitely not the Apollo landings – they're a joke.”

“I really do feel like the evidence is there that these guys [U.S. political and religious leaders] are in the occult.”

On politician John Kerry: “This guy practices the occult. He had to in order to get into Skull & Bones [the not-so-secret Yale University club whose membership rolls are published each year by the school]. What ELSE is he capable of?”

Radio host: “And the 9/11 attack itself, is that the European group, or is that more the Americans, like Bush and Cheney?”
Bermas: “These guys in America are able to become billio-naires, but they're not the multi-trillionaires that are in countries, basically with a free license to print money. So their power [the Americans' power] can only go so far.”
Host: “So you see it [The people behind the 9/11 attacks] as more of a European-type thing?”
Bermas: “Absolutely. I mean when you look at how bizarre some of these rituals are, and where these things come from...Helmut Schmidt, for instance, former German Chancellor, talks about all the things he used to do, all these Germanic death cults, and he talks about, you know, Bohemian Grove being a sex event and loving the rituals there, it's suspicious to me, man! I mean, I can see that with my own eyes. [I would like to read his eyewitness accounts! –MR] ...You look at things like the Montauk Project, and Boys' Town, and they definitely used, you know, drug addicts, sexual deviants. It's mind control! It's absolute mind control.”
“There was a report out in the past couple of days [on Alex Jones’ website, of course] that the government has been actually recruiting pastors and ministers to go around and say, you know, if something like the bird flu hits, it'll be good to go with, like, FEMA into camps and all these other federally-regulated areas, and they're actually being paid to say this stuff. And taking inoculations, and that is SCARY!”
“Unfortunately, in this country if there is another major event, and if it is incrementalized [CTs love that word, al-though it is meaningless in this context] and larger than the last one, they could declare martial law at any moment, and have forced inoculations, and who's to say what they put in your body?”
“Believe it or not, TIVO was working on a brain chip, so that with your TIVO box there it would record what you want, when you want it, and it will base it on your brain patterns.”

My views cannot be associated to any great extent with the views of people like Alex Jones and Jeff Rense. In my opinion, they have done more to harm the truth movement than to help it...in fact, I suspect that's what they are all about...an effort to make anyone who gets it right to look like they are nutjobs.

If you read me carefully, you will note that I rarely if ever link to anything from these guys, nor do I speak often on many aspects of the event other than the physical anomolies of the building collapses. I stick to the observable facts and documentable assertions.

My views cannot be associated to any great extent with the views of people like Alex Jones and Jeff Rense. In my opinion, they have done more to harm the truth movement than to help it...in fact, I suspect that's what they are all about...an effort to make anyone who gets it right to look like they are nutjobs.

If you read me carefully, you will note that I rarely if ever link to anything from these guys, nor do I speak often on many aspects of the event other than the physical anomolies of the building collapses. I stick to the observable facts and documentable assertions.

I told myself to stay away from this thread but I will drop another line or two anyway...

Why is it everyone seems to think our government is some squeeky clean bunch who couldnt do anything less than noble and valiant? These guys do terrible things all the time and nobody ever hears about it. I dont buy any of this we didnt torture crap either. Men in positions like these guys are not looking out for you and I like some seem to think. Power corrupts. Take Dick Cheney for example... he doesnt give a crap about us. If you think he does you should have your head examined.

This isnt much of a statement on the 9/11 in this thread but more of a statement about the way I see powerful people in powerful places.

I told myself to stay away from this thread but I will drop another line or two anyway...

Why is it everyone seems to think our government is some squeeky clean bunch who couldnt do anything less than noble and valiant? These guys do terrible things all the time and nobody ever hears about it. I dont buy any of this we didnt torture crap either. Men in positions like these guys are not looking out for you and I like some seem to think. Power corrupts. Take Dick Cheney for example... he doesnt give a crap about us. If you think he does you should have your head examined.

This isnt much of a statement on the 9/11 in this thread but more of a statement about the way I see powerful people in powerful places.

Uh oh, you are dangerously close to falling off into the dark side.
No one here (as far as I know) has made any such claim. We are speaking (to a wall) of CT's belief that the wtc buildings had been brought down by controlled demolition and that no plane had hit the Pentagon. Believing someone (or a group of individuals) is capable of a dastardly deed doth not make them guilty. It is this type of reasoning (or argument or deceit) that got us into Iraq.

Many people confuse the government with their country. They think the government IS the country. It's a "my government right or wrong" mentality, especially if the government is controlled by their chosen political party. Make no mistake...if this shit was happening under Al Gore, a lot of these 9/11 truth deniers would instead be on the truth bandwagon.

The US government operates in secret. Just the shit they have admitted doing should be enough to make anyone doubt the official 9/11 story. But, with our pitiful education system and dubious mainstream media, the idea that the United States is a benevolent empire that would never hurt its own people or anyone else on purpose remains prevalent. The common misconception is that this is a government of the people...the reality is that this is a government of people belonging to one of two political parties combined with a crapload of entrenched bureaucrats. When we look at the number of people that actually vote, and how many people actually voted for the victorious as compared to the population, even in a perfect and fair election we cannot say that these folks were elected by a majority of the people.

As for the other events mentioned by BS...from what I understand there are those that claim conspiracies in those, as well. While you're Googling it, you can also google Pearl Harbor. FDR said that nothing happens by accident, especially in politics.

You believe no plane crashed into the Pentagon. I'd like to know why you dismiss personal testimonies like the one below, of which there must be hundreds of other examples, many of whom will have actually been there:

mil wrote:

Thought I'd post this little passage taken from "Things The Grandchildren Should Know," Mark E Everett's (E from Eels) autobiography. E is not the kind of person willing to be a government mouthpiece or lackey, happy to spread misinformation to keep the populace ignorant; he's an exceptionally gifted musician who has endured a serious amount of personal tragedy in his life, which got that little bit worse on 9/11:

"There were all sorts of rumours about other planes on their way to hit other targets and areas. As we set up to play at the radio station we were told there was a rumour that a hijacked plane was on the way to crash into the west end of London, which was where we were. We figured if we're going out, we might as well go out rocking. We sent one of the roadies down to get some beer and proceeded to play, wondering if we were about to die at any given moment.

"The rumour turned out to only be a rumour. We finished our session and went back to the hotel. I checked my messages in America and heard the voice of my Aunt Sally saying she had some bad news. My cousin Jennifer and her husband were flight attendants on the plane that hit the Pentagon earlier in the day. Usually they don't let married flight attendants work on the same flight, but since they were going to take a vacation in LA at the end of the flight, the airline made an exception and let them work together this one time. It was horrible to hear stories on TV about how the flight attendants possibly being tortured and killed first. A few months later the only remains they could find were returned to my Aunt Britt and Uncle Bob, Jennifer's parents: her charred flight bag."

Tell me, why would E perpetuate a myth? He has no love for the present administration; indeed, GWB cited Eels in his 2000 election campaign as an example of moral decay in society, as a group secretly peddling smut to children (due to the use of the word "motherfucker" on an album with a cover supposedly designed to be attractive to minors). How did his flight attendant cousin end up dead after boarding her flight? Did they bus her in for in advance of whatever else hit it/blew it up, perhaps? Or did they dispose of her body somewhere and leave her flight bag there to be found?

Note that I'm not accepting this story blindly; I've read it carefully, considered the alternatives and decided the plane theory and hence E's tale is the most likely. This does not imply that the "Man" is to be trusted, BTW.

_________________"I don't think Pop Tarts have any place in our Lord's plans for the world."

I never said I believe that no plane hit the Pentagon. You are putting words in my mouth. I've never seen a photo of the tailfin of any of the planes that crashed. Pangbrain said he had seen one, so I've been asking to see it.

Testimony like the piece you present is a big reason why I don't ascribe to no-plane theories. If you have read me carefully, you know that I have said that one clear photo is all the Pentagon needs to submit in order to discredit the no-planers. Why haven't they done this?

This E stuff isn't exactly eyewitness, is it? A charred bag is all they could find? How tough is that to fake? This isn't to say there was no plane or no people, this is to demonstrate how critical thinking works.

"This country is over because we don't ask questions anymore..." - Goerge Carlin

I ask that in the future all respondants to this thread do what they can to comprehend my posts before they go making false claims about my stance. Others here may place a lot of credence in no-plane theories, but it ain't me. So-called "debunkers" are constantly trying to pin such claims on all truthers, but it does not apply here.

BS, I think there's good evidence that OKC was an inside job, and that Pearl Harbor was not such a surprise...and why would I fear that the US government is going to target me? We don't live in some kind of a police state, do we?

I never said I believe that no plane hit the Pentagon. You are putting words in my mouth. I've never seen a photo of the tailfin of any of the planes that crashed. Pangbrain said he had seen one, so I've been asking to see it.

Testimony like the piece you present is a big reason why I don't ascribe to no-plane theories. If you have read me carefully, you know that I have said that one clear photo is all the Pentagon needs to submit in order to discredit the no-planers. Why haven't they done this?

This E stuff isn't exactly eyewitness, is it? A charred bag is all they could find? How tough is that to fake? This isn't to say there was no plane or no people, this is to demonstrate how critical thinking works.

"This country is over because we don't ask questions anymore..." - Goerge Carlin

I ask that in the future all respondants to this thread do what they can to comprehend my posts before they go making false claims about my stance. Others here may place a lot of credence in no-plane theories, but it ain't me. So-called "debunkers" are constantly trying to pin such claims on all truthers, but it does not apply here.

BS, I think there's good evidence that OKC was an inside job, and that Pearl Harbor was not such a surprise...and why would I fear that the US government is going to target me? We don't live in some kind of a police state, do we?

My bad, Shark_Barker, and I apologise for that. I hadn't read your entire posting history on the topic, and I assumed your request for a photo of a tailfin meant that you questioned whether a plane hit the Pentagon or not (though I was aware you don't subscribe to no-planes theories re: the Twin Towers). I can assure you this wasn't deliberate, and sorry again.

No, a charred bag isn't hard to fake, but the background shenanigans required to make the full story stand up would be very hard to fake. This also is to demonstrate how critical thinking works.

_________________"I don't think Pop Tarts have any place in our Lord's plans for the world."

Shark you play a boring game, you did not answer again! I do not live in a police state, you are the one with all the questions and no answers. You are the paranoid post queen or is it drama queen? So are you in fear of being targeted? And why all the hostility? You have an opinion at this point I think you have made it known.

_________________A government Bureau is the closest thing to eternal life on earth that you will ever see

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