DKs are the worst thing that happened to WoW since release. I hope they will delete them in future...

Sure thing. Even though it needs not affect your fun at all, and ruin the fun of the countless people who love the class, we'll totally toss an entire class, and it's dedicated playerbase, away because you think it's not cool.
While we're at it, we're also thinking of deleting the Druid class, because that's pretty much a hero class as well, from lore perspective, and introduce a new class in it's stead: The Trainer. It's main feature is that it can control minipets (up to three at a time), and use the vanity pet's abilities in raid encounters. It's roles are healing, tanking and/or DPSsing, and it's got the Earth, Fire and Water talent trees. This class will outperform all existing classes, because for each of our classes, we've got players that dislike it.
Thanks for your great feedback!

I love runeforging. I love having free enchants that are always better than the ones others have to pay thousands of gold for. As for "cool weapon effects", people HATED the glowjobs for Landslide and Power Torrent. In fact Dancing Steel now uses the same effect we've had all along.

I have no idea why you think GC doesn't play this class, or how you have played DK for so long without understanding that "hero class" means nothing more than "starts at high level" -- anything else flies in the face of game balance.

The only thing Hero Class means is that you start at Level 55 instead of Level 1. That's it. It doesn't mean you get to be OP. Death Knights are fine. Are they perfect? No. But no class is, and every class has some things that the players would like to see improved. Maybe they'll improve some of them. Maybe they won't. But all your original post asks for is changes for the sake of changes.

Humans are the only species on the planet smart enough to be this stupid.

I do agree that more runic enchants would be interesting - perhaps on different pieces of gear? One thing I thought was cool at the very beginning of wotlk was that you needed an actual corpse to get your ghoul - I think it'd be interesting if they could bring something similar like that back. Perhaps have army of the dead use corpses off the ground maybe? The gargoyle could use a new model too, just seems to be a really boring talent.

DK's are in a wacky spot and I do think they need hungering cold back. It's worthless with the cast time, but likely was OP with it... perhaps have it just freeze one person instead maybe but be instant cast still? I don't think that would be too much to ask for if on a minute CD. That being said, DK's are in a good spot with damage, and blood was really turned into an interesting spec in cata (far cooler than the other tank specs in my opinion), but the class as a whole definitely needs some sort of revamp on the runic system.

As for Ghostcrawler, the guy seems to have one really good idea followed by 3 or 4 really bad ones that he will stick to his guns with.

I played it in Wotlk through season 6 and 7 (I missed the OPness of season 5) - people still feel like they were OP in those seasons but I don't think it was really that bad, especially season 7 where our diseases could be easily dispelled, crippling our damage, along with the shadow strike nerf. After that I took big break from wow. But back to the topic, I think the rune system isn't bad, it's just a pain to keep track of your runes *and* your runic power in pvp. Having runes stay up for a few seconds is a big dps loss... definitely agree there needs to be a revamp on some level.

Soul Reaper - A very over-hyped and neglected ability. Most frost death knights aren't even using this in their rotation because it hits very "softly" for an execute. We take a look at an obliterate crit which is hitting for 300-400k (depending on gear and buffs) compared to SR which is barely hitting for 150-200k. Why waste a rune on an ability like SR when it could have been used on a harder hitting ability. Take look at warrior execute which is hitting for over a million damage in most cases which is amazing compared to SR.

Unholy Death Knights would like a word with you, while it may not be strong in one spec, it is strong in another, so strong it takes top priority in our rotation below 35% of a bosses' health.

However, from a PvE POV we're in an excellent position - we may not have stealth mechanics, or blink, or charge stun or the ability to create copies of ourselves that howling blast the boss while we /dance but christ we can kick out some DPS and it flows, it flows so naturally that you get in a zen state of pew when playing.

Does more damage than obliterate and is technically half the cost - as long as you're not sitting on a KM then you're stupid if you don't use it as frost and downright retarded if you don't use it as unholy.

Runeforging

Our free enchants may not do things like "chance on hit to summon the Lich King to lay the smacketh down on thine foe" but they're still better than today's equivalent, paid enchants... and did I mention they're free

As has been posted above me multiple times "if it aint broken then don't fix it" Why try shoehorning new abilities into the DK model when what we have works so well anyway? The removal of hungering cold, blood caked blade, the "death coil dot" UB and some other things may have been a bit of a hit but it's not a coffin nail - we still rock.

Rune System

What would you do differently? with Unholy + Blood tap you're basically swimming in death runes anyway and as 2h frost you can use all of your runes on obliterate - there's no real drawbacks... you could add an extra set of 2 runes which regen at different speeds or you could just add new abilities that have a fixed cooldown and no cost *shrug*. Oh, and the very fact that people still debate/advocate the use of one rune regen talent over another means that Blizzard have actually done well with making Blood Tap, Runic Empowerment and Runic Corruption all different but all viable depending on what people prefer. (I personally love blood tap, even if it has the least rune-return of the 3 options)

The only change I'd really love to see would be making Control Undead a permanent thing for unholy DKs, allowing you to tame undead creatures and swap between them like hunter pets. Banshees with ranged attacks/silences... Abominations with stuns or hook grips etc... The variation that would add would just make me do a sex-wee.

I appreciate all of the comments you guys have posted so far. I also would like to let you guys know here at MMO that I was banned on the official forums for a week for posting this thread and voicing my opinions.

Little to no changes is good for the "don't fix what isn't broken" people but when a new expansion comes I want to feel refreshed, otherwise why even buy the expansion.

Well, technically all classes were refreshed when it comes to the new talent system. An expansion doesn't have to mean a complete overhaul to the class, we have an entire new land, new raids, new dungeons, pet battles, new gear and some upcoming QoL changes to unholy.

Originally Posted by GamerLCD

I appreciate all of the comments you guys have posted so far. I also would like to let you guys know here at MMO that I was banned on the official forums for a week for posting this thread and voicing my opinions.

Had a look at that thread... actually have no idea why you were banned - have seen far worse threads on the official forums.

1. DKs are in a good place, in PvE at least. Damage is good, tanking is good.
2. You're wrong about the changes that other classes get. Warriors haven't felt fresh in a LONG time. Actually this expansion warriors, from a PvE perspective feel like a step down from the previous expansions, regardless of how they may be in PvP. My DK, and almost every DK I've spoken with aside from one feels that DKs are in a similar if not better spot than they were in Cataclysm.
3. We don't need a complete refresh every single expansion, especially if we're in a good place. The goal is balance and if we're in a good place balancewise, which we are, then there is no need to screw that balance up and change the class for the sake of freshness.
4. He never said he's planning on ignoring the class - He's saying that Blizzard has learned that giving players exactly what they want isn't always necessarily the best thing. If Blizzard gave every player what they wanted balance would go right out the window. Everyone wants their character to be stronger, even when their character is in a good place, and it would be stupid for Blizzard to listen and buff/fundamentally change a class that's already fine.
5. Basically what you're looking for is to play something other than a DK, and Blizzard isn't going to suddenly make DKs not DKs. Blizzard is giving us quality of life changes though.
6. Hero class doesn't mean what you think it means.
7. Going and playing and interacting with enchanters isn't fun. We get free weapon enchants, it's awesome.
8. DK talents are very similar to other class talents believe it or not, each one has talents that feel fairly mandatory and each one has a tier where it's just like "ehhhh pick whatever." - Some classes got completely new abilities to fill a void, but DKs really didn't have (m)any voids and thus just got changes to existing talents and a couple toys. It's fine.
9. Some of your information is woefully inaccurate. Warriors aren't getting 1m executes often, that was mostly (completely?) tank spec warriors that could get vengeance high enough to do that IIRC and it was fixed at least a month ago.

That said, it was a very interesting video and I respect your passion for your character even though I disagree with most of it.

In my opinion, DKs are in a tough spot and nothing short of a large overhaul will make it feel "new" again, but then you risk changing the class too much and potentially causing people to quit. Also, keep in mind blizzard probably doesn't have the resources to offer an overhaul for each class every expansion, especially if they continue to release updates at this rate.

Personally I got bored of my druid, and the changes MoP brought didn't really excite me. So I made a monk. I'm having fun again, and while originally I was sad to give up on a character that I had played since I started playing WoW, I got over it.

Then why is the OP bitching about it? clearly if it takes priority it must mean alot.

While the OP is wrong abouth SR not being useful for frost death knights he has a point. Soul reaper is not a ability that frost is excited to use as soon as the sub 35% phase comes its just a dps gain that you have to use properly else it can end up costing you. Sure that adds a bit of complexcety and lets dks who use it properly stand out but as far as being a "execute" goes Soul Reaper is dissapointing for frost.

My gripes about DK is blood has no raid utility, at all. none.
Our level 90 talents are kinda meh (fail winter being the king of bad talents for that tier)
Runic empowerment seems like a trap for newer DKs as it is very much inferior to RC/BT for DPS/survivability/ease of use.
AMZ either need better scaling for group size or just needs to be a raid CD like PW: barrier, but for magic. I would make this baseline and put a new talent there.
Asphyxiate should be the baseline silence (tune it down to 3 sec) and there should be another talent that fits the tier theme of self mobility/removing opponents better.
Plague leech should be retooled so that it isn't 1 death rune once a minute by gaming your diseases. Not sure how you would change it but my thought would be current effect combined with pestilence so you take the diseases off one target, spread them to others, and get a death rune to boot.

Below I will list some stuff from my spec experiences
Blood:
Again, no raid utility at all. We are fine tanks with great DPS and I won't complain in that department, but tanks like pallies and monks bring that AND great utility to a raid. Even druids can give their raid a speed boost or a tranq if OT. A better AMZ baseline, or the old T13 bonus for vamp blood, or old glyphed rune tap, or some combination of these would make DK tanks perfect and in line with their tanking buddies.

Frost:
I am highly jealous of the new blood plague for UH, makes disease management sound like a snoozefest which is something I've never liked.
Much as I love KM its always baffled me why it needs to be so easy for DW, but much more difficult for 2H. I suppose this will never change though as you would have to change the fundamentals of 2H rotation with FS to fix it, whereas you can just bandaid it with a swing timer addon.

PvP:
I am not sure how everyone else feels, but why am I so squishy? I have 60% resil but people just tear me a new one. If I want to live for more than a few seconds in a BG I am forced to stay in blood presence, which means my burst is about 2 seconds long before I am spent.
Would be nice to see IBF cranked up to 50% for DPS specs, or reduce its CD by 1.5 min and have sanguine fort add 1.5 min to the CD.
Also feels like every hotfix ever has a death strike PvP nerf attached to it to make sure blood DKs stay out of PvP. The other specs pay the price for it big time while blood has an excellent mastery to cover the lack of healing DS does in PvP so its still business as usual for them.

Not really huge stuff but it would be nice to see some of the issues I have covered, though I doubt I will see the PvP one change at all.

DK's are definitely not broken, but there is room for improvement. I won't speak for PvPers or Frosties and Unholies, because I mainly play Blood tank in pve, but I really believe there are a few things that could be done to the class to make it a little more appealing.

Originally Posted by matthias9742

My gripes about DK is blood has no raid utility, at all. none.

Exactly. Every tank brings something to the table, but us.

-AMZ could be really better, it's very weak in 25-mans and you still have to sacrifice Purgatory to take it. (Anyone said crime against humanity ?)
-Blood worms are pretty much useless. They never heal when or where they should, I wish we could get rid of them and get a real raid cooldown/heal/something.

Originally Posted by matthias9742

Our level 90 talents are kinda meh (fail winter being the king of bad talents for that tier)

I've seen various uses for the three talents. At first, I strongly believed these were very weak, but depending on the situation they can actually be quite sweet. Remorseless Winter is awesome for 5-mans, Challenge modes and add fights. Gorefiend's grasp is amazing on heroic Feng and fights where you need to kite, or pack things up. And Desecrated ground is very good to prevent fears/stuns, Galleon being a good example.

The only thing I don't like about this, is that they just don't feel like level 90 talents.

Also, it might not be a big deal but our physical debuff management is still a little bit weird. I still don't see what's wrong with outbreak being on a 30 sec cooldown for blood (or even less, for that matter), it surely wouldn't break anything and would add a lot of comfort. There are still various situations where I can't make use of a previous target to spread diseases on a new one. (Adds that only pop waves after waves, like the last trash packs in the brewery, etc)

I honestly believe it is way too complicated for no reason, while every other thank can apply the physical debuff with one button on demand, with an aoe. I'm fine with outbreak not being an aoe, but one minute cooldown might be a little bit too heavy, and using plague strike as blood is counter-intuitive at best.

Glyphs aren't really fun either, but I think that's a valid concern for pretty much every class.

Last edited by Asheriah; 2013-01-02 at 01:56 PM.

We don't believe in your Horde or your Alliance. We only believe in undeath.

@Asheriah
For every pro about remorseless winter tho, you have to remember that we used to have hungering cold baseline. So we lost that for a weaker version of it that takes a talent point. Currently if you need something to stop moving Chillblains is already wicked awesome for kite tanking in challenge modes etc. . ., and for AoE stun shockwave is miles better. 20 sec CD on an instant AoE stun that also hits really damn hard. Or leg sweep for monks, a 45 sec CD on their instant AoE stun. heck I would even take capacitor totem with its glyphed 3 second charge up over remorseless winter.
Gorefiend's i'll give ya since it is useful in PvE and PvP to a much lesser degree, but the range could be slightly better for a 1 min CD.
Desecrated ground is ok for PvP since its basically another trinket, but in PvE if you are in any environment where stun/fear/incapacitate are an issue you could take lichborune, or pop IBF, or have a priest or shaman fear ward/tremor totem, or have any healer dispel that junk off you.

Also I agree about 30 sec outbreak. It is a QoL change I miss sorely. A change to make that easy enough would be to just lower the RP cost on the outbreak glyph to around 20 and add outbreak to our list of stuff that causes RC/RE/BT to give us runes.
For weakened blows it is pretty much set it and forget it, though would be nice if HS applied it since it is a part of our basic rotation and could be applied in a jiffy if shiz hit the fan.

I agree on our glyphs. Blizzard went the route of making glyphs non-mandatory by making them all awful.

@Asheriah
For every pro about remorseless winter tho, you have to remember that we used to have hungering cold baseline.

Yeah, that's why I said I wouldn't speak for frosties . I can't miss something that I never had as a tank anyway (always was blood since day 1, a little bit of unholy here and there though). I think RW is better for tanking, because it doesn't break on damage, making it a very powerful tool for challenge modes. Also, we were kinda lacking in the stun department.

Originally Posted by matthias9742

Currently if you need something to stop moving Chillblains is already wicked awesome for kite tanking in challenge modes etc. . ., and for AoE stun shockwave is miles better. 20 sec CD on an instant AoE stun that also hits really damn hard. Or leg sweep for monks, a 45 sec CD on their instant AoE stun.

Can't argue with that. But I guess you can't have everything. We bring a lot of dps and the ability to heal back a lot of damage on our own. We'd probably be too good in 5-mans if we could also control everything on demand. Now, raid utility is another thing.

Originally Posted by matthias9742

Desecrated ground is ok for PvP since its basically another trinket, but in PvE if you are in any environment where stun/fear/incapacitate are an issue you could take lichborune, or pop IBF, or have a priest or shaman fear ward/tremor totem, or have any healer dispel that junk off you.

Well, I don't know about you but I feel bad for popping my 50% cooldown on a stun. Desecrated ground is amazing on Galleon, and man did I see this boss kill tanks in 2 hits under the effect of his stun ability. I really think it can have it's uses as a tank, and nothing's preventing you to combine it with Lichborn and IBF, it's even better !

Last edited by Asheriah; 2013-01-02 at 02:53 PM.

We don't believe in your Horde or your Alliance. We only believe in undeath.