Is the transgression finished ? If not when will it be ? What happens at the finish of the transgression ?

Yes, As in when the Jews spent 400 years in Egypt until the Amorites sin was sufficient for God to overthrow them. When the Jews crucified Christ, their sin was sufficient for God to overthrow them. Hence the parable of the Tenants which was also prophesied in Daniel 9:26.

Please remember my goal in this thread is to provide a place for debate so it does not distract the other thread where I want to understand why people believe what they do.

As I said, I don't have an end time view and I don't have an end time position to defend.I want to understand why people believe what they believe.So please don't stop because we don't agree. I am not looking to agree, I am looking to understand.From that viewpoint I have provided where I am so we can work from there.

Please remember my goal in this thread is to provide a place for debate so it does not distract the other thread where I want to understand why people believe what they do.

As I said, I don't have an end time view and I don't have an end time position to defend.I want to understand why people believe what they believe.So please don't stop because we don't agree. I am not looking to agree, I am looking to understand.From that viewpoint I have provided where I am so we can work from there.

Keith

What I said was only to agree that what you are seeing is valid and reasonable. I didn't intend to stop, only to really say that we will Soon know many things we all are trying to understand.

keithareilly wrote:Can you show me the Chiastic structure you see like the example I gave? With the dashes to show the structure.

What helps more than the dashes is really letters or numbers to Define the Center of the chiasm....below is an example I think is very accurate..............................................................................................................................A. Daniel 9:25a (ASV) Jerusalem Construction: Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem B. Daniel 9:25b Anointed one:unto the anointed one, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: C. Daniel 9:25c Jerusalem Construction:it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times.

D. Daniel 9:26a Anointed one: And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing:

C'. Daniel 9:26b Jerusalem Destroyed:and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined. B'. Daniel 9:27a Anointed one: And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; A'. Daniel 9:27b Jerusalem Destroyed: and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate...........................................................................................................................................

The letter D is the center (Messiah/Annointed/Christ)

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Please keep in mind...the prophecy is not given in a western form of Time Sequence such as ABCDEFG.

D is as a Mirror, it is a Repetitious Mention of the Action of Messiah, it is not, First this will happen, then this other thing will happen, then on and on till the end.That is why the Jewish war, and the destruction in 70ad is mentioned BEFORE Another Reference is made regarding Christ and His Work to End all sacrifices.

A western style reading goes, as I said. 1234567, or ABCDEFG.....but the Hebraic Style is 1234321, or ABCDCBA

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Does the Chiastic structure require the anointed one to have to be the same (Messiah) in each (stanza?) ?Or does the structure all substitution? could it be changed to Titus for the destruction as it was once Nebuchanezzar for destruction?

Does it allow dual meaning, both Titus and Messiah?

Jeremiah 43:10-1310and say to them, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Behold, I will send and take Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will set his throne above these stones that I have hidden, and he will spread his royal canopy over them. 11He shall come and strike the land of Egypt, giving over to the pestilence those who are doomed to the pestilence, to captivity those who are doomed to captivity, and to the sword those who are doomed to the sword. 12I shall kindle a fire in the temples of the gods of Egypt, and he shall burn them and carry them away captive. And he shall clean the land of Egypt as a shepherd cleans his cloak of vermin, and he shall go away from there in peace. 13He shall break the obelisks of Heliopolis, which is in the land of Egypt, and the temples of the gods of Egypt he shall burn with fire.’”

keithareilly wrote:Does it allow dual meaning, both Titus and Messiah?

Yes, I think I does. The Titus fulfillment (secondary) being Subservient to Christ (Primary).One being a Confirmation of the Law of Death and Sin, and the Other the Confirmation of the Law of Life and Faith.

That's what I think

Think also of the One as a Subservient fulfillment , or TO Serve Christ...just as "Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant"

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

keithareilly wrote:Does the Chiastic structure require the anointed one to have to be the same (Messiah) in each (stanza?) ?Or does the structure allow substitution? could it be changed to Titus for the destruction as it was once Nebuchanezzar for destruction?

I edited your word to say "Allow"...that's what you meant I'm sure.

Anyway, it's not necessary for the Anointed to carry through the Chiastic structure, no. but given that Christ is the center of ALL Prophecy, I find it most reasonable.

That's what's most reasonable to me.

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Jay Ross wrote:As Mark F posted, your timeline understanding of events associated with End Time prophecy does not seem to sit well with him when he asks the following question.

I think Mark F was addressing Keith, regarding his understanding of timelines Jay. The position I hold does not require a Continuous 70th week.... but a 70th that is Divided.

But, your argument and defense is that the 70 weeks of years are continuous but with a very large pause/gap in the seventieth week. Logically, your argument supports what Keith is inquiring about, the only difference is the duration of the seventieth week of years? Keith is suggesting that the seventieth week is only seven years in duration whereas you are arguing that the seventieth week has three and a half years of significance at its beginning, separated by a very long period of time from the last three and a half year significant period of the seventieth week of years.

It seems to me that you are placing a two way bet on a one horse race because you do not really know what the outcome will be.

It seems to me that the predominate arguments being made in this thread about the seventy weeks of years is only making something that is very simple, rather complicated by the number of hoops one must jump through to reach the conclusions that are being arrived at.

Jay Ross wrote:It seems to me that you are placing a two way bet on a one horse race because you do not really know what the outcome will be.

Well, I guess you can think that...but I'm not a betting man.

Jay Ross wrote:It seems to me that the predominate arguments being made in this thread about the seventy weeks of years is only making something that is very simple, rather complicated by the number of hoops one must jump through to reach the conclusions that are being arrived at.

I guess Bible prophecy will just remain what it is, be it simple or not.

Last edited by shorttribber on Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Jay Ross wrote: Keith is suggesting that the seventieth week is only seven years in duration whereas you are arguing that the seventieth week has three and a half years of significance at its beginning, separated by a very long period of time from the last three and a half year significant period of the seventieth week of years.

That's basically correct. but I would say that there is also something very Significant that has and is occurring Presently Between the Two Parts....The Grafting into the Household of Faith of the Gentiles ...Just as God Promised Abraham.

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

The Desolations mentioned, you already know, are the result of Rebellious/Faithless Rejection OF His Work.

Are you stating that the Desolations mentioned in Daniel 9:26b are the result of the Israelite nation's rejection of Christ at His first advent?

If so then the overwhelming Old Testament revelations do not support this notion, as they clearly only point to the sin/iniquity of the idolatrous worship within the Israelite nation as a whole during all of the four ages, which is shortly drawing to a close, of the existence of the Israelite nation up and until the time of the decreed end of the visitation of the iniquities upon their children and their children's children when they will be redeemed.

This was the heavy burden that Christ offered to lift off of the Israelite nation's shoulders and replace it with his light yoke of redemption if they would simply believe "in Him whom He had sent." Notice, in John 6 that no mention is made of His redemptive work on the cross as a requirement for their salvation at that time.

shorttribber wrote:It is not likely that I would be able to persuade you differently from what you now believe, but I do want you to see the Possibility in what I'm saying.I can see the possibility in your opinion to a degree.....it's just that the amount of scriptures that support my opinion are just overwhelmingly in my favor I think.

Yes, ST, it is simply just your opinion, supported by scriptures that have been twisted to support your point of view in the hope that it will stack up when the heat of what is to come is all around us.

shorttribber wrote:HE is the One who Confirmed the Promises made to the fathers. It is He who Caused/Causes that Covenant made by Promise to "Prevail".

If I'm wrong we will see soon, AND Soon we will see if I'm right.

ST, I do not have any trouble with this statement, but, I am not sure that your application of it is correct though, in the light of what scripture actually states.

shorttribber wrote:Either way, I'm glad you can clearly agree that Christ's sacrifice Did, By Necessity, occur During the 70th week.

That ST is just your opinion in that it supports your Chiasm argument that for Christ redemptive work to be important, it must fall in the middle of some time period.

Jay Ross wrote:Are you stating that the Desolations mentioned in Daniel 9:26b are the result of the Israelite nation's rejection of Christ at His first advent?

Yes Jay...Math 2331 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Jay Ross wrote:Yes, ST, it is simply just your opinion, supported by scriptures that have been twisted to support your point of view in the hope that it will stack up when the heat of what is to come is all around us.

I guess you can think that.....you can think as you guess

Jay Ross wrote:That ST is just your opinion in that it supports your Chiasm argument that for Christ redemptive work to be important, it must fall in the middle of some time period.

The Necessity of His Reconciling and Redemptive work is Not dependent on any chiastic structure Jay. The necessity of His Work being INSIDE the 70 weeks is the FACT that His Essential Work is Described in verse 24 of Daniel 9.

Last edited by shorttribber on Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Is the transgression finished ? If not when will it be ? What happens at the finish of the transgression ?

Yes, As in when the Jews spent 400 years in Egypt until the Amorites sin was sufficient for God to overthrow them.

Firstly, David has asked a very pertinent question which is at the crux of our understanding of the Daniel 9 prophetic verses.

Sadly Keith, this interpretation of Genesis 15:16 is the "traditional" understanding of this verse, because people could not get their head around something so far into the future and as such it is wrong on a number of counts. In the first portion of this verse, God was informing Abraham that towards the end of the fourth "Age" of the existence of Abraham's descendants, some 4,000 years after the birth of Isaac, and, that his descendants would return to the land in their own strength and without His help. In the second portion of this verse it makes reference to the Amorite people that would be living around the land of Canaan at the time of their return, i.e. in 1948, whose iniquity against God would just about be fulfilled at that time. The dominate religion of the Amorite people in 1948 was Islamic in nature which denies the very existence of Christ s the Son of God. Back during the time of the exodus from Egypt, the Amorite people were worshipers of the Baal/Babylonian religion.

keithareilly wrote:When the Jews crucified Christ, their sin was sufficient for God to overthrow them. Hence the parable of the Tenants which was also prophesied in Daniel 9:26.

Keith

Now, I am not sure if your logic here is any different to that of Shorttribber's, since they were scattered to the four directions of the compass because of their idolatrous worship as is recorded in the Old Testament.

Jay Ross wrote:Sadly Keith, this interpretation of Genesis 15:16 is the "traditional" understanding of this verse, because people could not get their head around something so far into the future and as such it is wrong on a number of counts. In the first portion of this verse, God was informing Abraham that towards the end of the fourth "Age" of the existence of Abraham's descendants, some 4,000 years after the birth of Isaac, and, that his descendants would return to the land in their own strength and without His help.

Where in the following text Jay does it say,"towards the end of the fourth "Age", and, "return to the land in their own strength"?

Gen 1516 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Jay Ross wrote:Sadly Keith, this interpretation of Genesis 15:16 is the "traditional" understanding of this verse, because people could not get their head around something so far into the future and as such it is wrong on a number of counts. In the first portion of this verse, God was informing Abraham that towards the end of the fourth "Age" of the existence of Abraham's descendants, some 4,000 years after the birth of Isaac, and, that his descendants would return to the land in their own strength and without His help.

Where in the following text Jay does it say,"towards the end of the fourth "Age", and, "return to the land in their own strength"?

Gen 1516 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

ST, where in Genesis 15:16a, does God inform Abraham that He will be intimately involved in their return to the land like He does in Genesis 15:14 where He states that He will bring judgement on Egypt to enable them to return?

Keeping in mind that the Prophecy in Genesis 15:12-14 is deliberately separated from the Genesis 15:16 prophecy by the personal prophecy for Abraham in Genesis 15:15. In other words, there are two prophecies that speak of a return to the promised land with the first prophecy clearly indicating that their return to the land will be from Egypt, while in the Genesis 15:16 prophecy, it does not indicate from where the descendants will return. Remember that God had prophetically told Jacob that his descendants would be spread like dust to the four points of the earth before God Himself will bring them back to the land.

Perhaps you may like to provide an explanation as to why you believe my expressed view is wrong or why you now accept that it is right.

Jay Ross wrote:ST, where in Genesis 15:16a, does God inform Abraham that He will be intimately involved in their return to the land like He does in Genesis 15:14 where He states that He will bring judgement on Egypt to enable them to return?

It doesn't say that, no....why does it matter that those words are not said.It really has no impact positively or negatively on the Shorttrib position I don't think.

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Jay Ross wrote:Perhaps you may like to provide an explanation as to why you believe my expressed view is wrong or why you now accept that it is right

You should answer my simple question.here it is again...Where in the following text Jay does it say,"towards the end of the fourth "Age", and, "return to the land in their own strength"?

Gen 1516 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

So ST, do you really know whether or not what I have written is right concerning Genesis 15:16.

You have quoted from my post where i was providing a commentary and you request was framed to put doubt on what I had written. That was why I then requested that you provide the proof that I was wrong, which by your subsequent response speaks loudly for you.

From my study of the chronology of the Old Testament, the 1948 return of some of Abraham's descendants to the Land of Canaan occurred exactly 4,000 years after the birth of Isaac from whom came the Nation of Israel. This being nearly 100 years before the end f the fourth Age.

shorttribber wrote:

Jay Ross wrote:ST, where in Genesis 15:16a, does God inform Abraham that He will be intimately involved in their return to the land like He does in Genesis 15:14 where He states that He will bring judgement on Egypt to enable them to return?

It doesn't say that, no....why does it matter that those words are not said.It really has no impact positively or negatively on the Shorttrib position I don't think.

Because so many people believe that 1948 was the fulfillment of when God stated that He will bring all of Israel back from the ends of the earth, {time wise} but in reality this is still in our distant future.

Now my original post was in response to Keith's post concerning Israel and his statements there in with respect to Genesis 15:16.

Yes I also agree with you, that it has no impact on the "Shorttrib" theory either positively or negatively, but the real question is, "Why is that so?"

Jay Ross wrote:So ST, do you really know whether or not what I have written is right concerning Genesis 15:16.

Yes, you have added something based on your understanding only. Based on the text, and the text only, That Return could occur ANY TIME During the Fourth Age.That's the point I was making.

Jay Ross wrote:You have quoted from my post where i was providing a commentary and you request was framed to put doubt on what I had written.

Yes I did. And that doubt is reasonable.

Jay Ross wrote:From my study of the chronology of the Old Testament, the 1948 return of some of Abraham's descendants to the Land of Canaan occurred exactly 4,000 years after the birth of Isaac from whom came the Nation of Israel. This being nearly 100 years before the end f the fourth Age.

That's fine, but as I said earlier, there is nothing in the text you provided that states exactly WHEN, In the Fourth Age, at the beginning, middle or end of it.

Jay Ross wrote:Because so many people believe that 1948 was the fulfillment of when God stated that He will bring all of Israel back from the ends of the earth, {time wise} but in reality this is still in our distant future.

That, "reality" you speak of, is again, your opinion. Nothing in that text Indicates At All that the Gathering occur NEAR the Very End of the Fourth Age......That's the point....the Text you've provided says nothing of the sort.

Jay Ross wrote:Yes I also agree with you, that it has no impact on the "Shorttrib" theory either positively or negatively, but the real question is, "Why is that so?"

I don't know, should I know? Does that affect how I should view Daniel 9?

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

With regards to prophets and prophecy.We know a false prophet because what he prophesies does not come to pass.With regards to levels of prophecy, do you have a name for hierarchies of prophecy?With the verses in Daniel 9 describing the First Jewish Roman War, what would you label the Roman Jewish War level of interpretation? What do you name the other levels?

Jay Ross wrote:So ST, do you really know whether or not what I have written is right concerning Genesis 15:16.

Yes, you have added something based on your understanding only. Based on the text, and the text only, That Return could occur ANY TIME During the Fourth Age.That's the point I was making.

So then you are agreeing with me where I had previously said that it would occur during the fourth age, but towards the end of the fourth age {Please note that OT:1755 is better understood to refer to an age}.

Sadly your statement that it could have occurred "ANY TIME during the Four Age" does not fit the other evidence available to us, i.e. Lamentations 5:19-22, Hosea 6:1-3.

In both of these scriptures, the redemption of Israel does not happen until the beginning of the Fifth Age/Day with respect to God's time frame. As has previously happened during the third Age of Israel when the Israelite people attempted to return to the Land of Canaan, God cause them to be removed again. In 1948, as Jesus foretold in Matthew 24:32, that some time before the beginning of the Harvest season/Millennium Age for mankind, around 100 years before the end of the present age, the dead Fig tree would again bring forth new life/leaves such that the nation of Israel was rebirthed which God has allowed to remain but with much tribulation and hardship.

Your insistence that it could have happened at any time is a requirement of your theory, but as scripture has shown, that was not the case and it had to have happened towards the end of the Fourth Age.

shorttribber wrote:

Jay Ross wrote:You have quoted from my post where I was providing a commentary and you request was framed to put doubt on what I had written.

Yes I did. And that doubt is reasonable.

Sadly this is a false argument technique which is not becoming of you.

shorttribber wrote:

Jay Ross wrote:From my study of the chronology of the Old Testament, the 1948 return of some of Abraham's descendants to the Land of Canaan occurred exactly 4,000 years after the birth of Isaac from whom came the Nation of Israel. This being nearly 100 years before the end f the fourth Age.

That's fine, but as I said earlier, there is nothing in the text you provided that states exactly WHEN, In the Fourth Age, at the beginning, middle or end of it.

Perhaps I did not make my statement clear enough for you in the portion of my post that you quoted just above. I said that it was going to occur around 100 years before the end of the fourth age. I also said that it did occur exactly 4,000 years from the year that Isaac was born. Adding these two numbers together and then dividing them by four would give the approximate length of an age with the answer suggesting that and age is approximately 1025 years in length.

If, as I stated that the Nation of israel/The Fig Tree budded in 1948 during the fourth age, then it did occur towards the end of that age, after about 90% of that age had passed. Do I assume that the majority of the readers of/on this forum do not have the ability to do the above calculations for themselves to also arrive at this conclusion from the information that has been provided. If anything most of them are probably much smarter than either you or me.

shorttribber wrote:

Jay Ross wrote:Because so many people believe that 1948 was the fulfillment of when God stated that He will bring all of Israel back from the ends of the earth, {time wise} but in reality this is still in our distant future.

That, "reality" you speak of, is again, your opinion. Nothing in that text Indicates At All that the Gathering occur NEAR the Very End of the Fourth Age......That's the point....the Text you've provide says nothing of the sort.

Again you are making a claim that is not supported by a proof which substantiates what you are writing/claiming in your attempt to invalidate what I have posted.

shorttribber wrote:

Jay Ross wrote:Yes I also agree with you, that it has no impact on the "Shorttrib" theory either positively or negatively, but the real question is, "Why is that so?"

I don't know, should I know? Does that affect how I should view Daniel 9?

If you are the main protagonist of the Shorttrib theory, then you should know whether or not Genesis 15:16 has any impact on your theory.

Whether or not I have any impact on what you actually believe, is entirely up to you and how much you want this theory to be true.

As to how you should view Daniel 9, that is entirely up to you, but what I do know is that your posts so far are not in line with what I now Know about Daniel 9 and how we should understand Daniel 9:24-27.

Prophecy 1: - Verse 24: -

"Seventy weeks of years have been set aside for your people and for your holy city, to finish their transgression,

After this 490 year period, God will then instigate a new way for the following to be acheived: -

• To make an end of sins,• To make reconciliation for iniquity,• To bring in everlasting righteousness,• To seal up vision and prophecy,• And to anoint the Most Holy.

Prophecy 2: - Verse 25: -

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command, to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks plus sixty-two weeks, i.e. 483 solar years.

The city streets and the walls shall be built again, but during troublesome times.

Prophecy 3: - Verse 26a: -

"And after the sixty-two weeks, i.e.After 434 solar years, the anointed prince, the Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

Prophecy 4: - Verse 26b: -

And the people of the prince, i.e. Satan, who is to come, shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of the city and Temple shall be with a flood, and until the end of the war in heaven, desolation is determined.

Prophecy 5: - Verse 27: -

Then the prince, i.e. Satan, who previously prevailed over Jerusalem when the Temple was destroyed and the people either killed or sent into slavery and scattered, will make a league with many for one week; but in the middle of that week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be the one who makes everything desolate, even to the very end, and then, that which is determined, will be poured out on the one who makes desolate."

With regards to prophets and prophecy.We know a false prophet because what he prophesies does not come to pass.

<snip>

This is true Keith, but I would be very careful about determining who is a false prophet with respect to the end times as it can take many years before a false prophet and/or a false prophecy is revealed.

The one week in Daniel 9:27 is not the 70th week; The 70th week is the one in which Christ was Crucified.

As stated in verse 9:26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.Not during the first 69 weeks but after the 69 weeks, during the 70th week.

I do not place Christ's crucifixion during the week mentioned in Daniel 9:27.

Scripture does not say at what point during the 70th week Messiah was cut off.So, I don't care if it was in the beginning of the week, at the end of the week, or halfway between.

Mark 12:1-9 12 And he began to speak to them in parables. “A man planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a pit for the winepress and built a tower, and leased it to tenants and went into another country. 2 When the season came, he sent a servant[a] to the tenants to get from them some of the fruit of the vineyard. 3 And they took him and beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 4 Again he sent to them another servant, and they struck him on the head and treated him shamefully. 5 And he sent another, and him they killed. And so with many others: some they beat, and some they killed. 6 He had still one other, a beloved son. Finally he sent him to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 7 But those tenants said to one another, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ 8 And they took him and killed him and threw him out of the vineyard. 9 What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the tenants and give the vineyard to others.

Daniel 9:24-27Contains two prophecies occurring at two different times but related, one prophesy about the killing of the son and one prophecy about the owner of the vineyard coming to destroy the tenants.

When Jesus told this parable, it was not a new prophecy.

Keith

Totally disagree, but your free to believe as you see fit.

Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Find a seven year covenant Jesus makes with anybody plainly stated in Scripture.

Is the transgression finished ? If not when will it be ? What happens at the finish of the transgression ?

Yes, As in when the Jews spent 400 years in Egypt until the Amorites sin was sufficient for God to overthrow them. When the Jews crucified Christ, their sin was sufficient for God to overthrow them. Hence the parable of the Tenants which was also prophesied in Daniel 9:26.

Keith

Hi Keith. I disagree. I believe the transgression is the failure to recognize Jesus as the Christ for all men and Hebrew Messiah promised in the Covenant. Notice in the Mark 12 parable, many servants were sent to those working the vineyard, and finally the Son. Many servants is actually the many Prophets sent by God to speak for Him, with Jesus His Son as the last One to be sent, represented by verse six, ' He had still one other, a beloved Son '. Now these next verses are very important to understanding our present time, as it has been fulfilled and continues to this day, as do a few other Prophecy's . And this is happening within the construct of the Daniel 9 Prophecy ...

Mark 12: 7 But those tenants said to one another, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ And they took him and killed him and threw him out of the vineyard. 9 What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the tenants and give the vineyard to others.

Remembering this is a parable and it covers more ground than just the time of Christ, first, the tenants recognize the Son and kill Him to gain the inheritance. I understand the inheritance to be the Kingdom, the Holy Land God has promised, so the tenants know the Son, to whom the inheritance is supposed to belong, therefore they are both the sons of satan and the offspring of Ishmael, who believe they were cheated out of the inheritance. Today these people are muslim, and their structures sit on the Temple Mount. This is ine representation of 'others'. Second, and this for now does not include the 'vineyard' proper which is the Kingdom 'in' the Holy Land, it is the fruit of the vineyard that is given to others here too, and those are people of Faith, mostly Christians now but this still includes Faithful Israel, as they are still blinded, in part. So for the last two ages this is what has been and is happening. Muslims possess the vineyard, the Faithful have the fruit, the true Faith.

When is the transgression over ? At the appointed time....

Zec 12:10¶ And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

So for now the curse of the Covenant is still on Judah, even though they are in the land of Israel. They are still within the specific time period as determined by the Law, of being punished for their transgression as they have not recognized the Son, and not having properly worked the vineyard to achieve the fruit of it. That time period is the time from Christ's Crucifixion until the very moment in time when they do recognize Him, and mourn for their 'only Son', our Firstborn. This is in our not too distant future, at the Second Coming, at the end of the second half of the 70th Week, as I see it.

And this is why the Daniel 9 Prophecy is so important. It is an over view Prophecy into which so many other Prophecy's fit with perfection, without going into great detail about a timeline of the events. Other Prophecy's spell that out for us, with the important issue being, Christ is the Living Word, by Him and through Him and His Grace we receive the benefit of the fruit of the vineyard where we work. One day we will again occupy and possess the vineyard proper, the Kingdom in the Holy Land. And that for a thousand years, while without the Kingdom the world is ruled by His rod of iron.

I fear I am becoming like Jay, saying there is so much that needs be understood without being able to say it in brief.

God Bless You

David

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

Does the Chiastic structure require the anointed one to have to be the same (Messiah) in each (stanza?) ?Or does the structure all substitution? could it be changed to Titus for the destruction as it was once Nebuchanezzar for destruction?

Does it allow dual meaning, both Titus and Messiah?

Keith

Chiastic structure is a method for writing, and once understood the context of the Prophecy becomes understandable. In the thesis that the Daniel 9 Prophecy is entirely Messianic it is allowed for other Prophecy to fulfill the work of Christ by and through the ' Law and Prophets '. So there is no dual fulfillment or other explanation in the Daniel Prophecy proper. Rather the Prophecy itself is an over view of the entire timeline with events such as Titus and the over throw of the Hebrews from Jerusalem being contained within. As you said about the Mark 12 parable, it is not a new Prophecy, it is contained within the Daniel 9 Prophecy.

As I said in the other thread, and thanks for the Mark 12 parable for supporting Scripture, it is the corruption of the leadership, and throughout many of the people, ' the people of the Prince who is to come ', over the time period of all the Prophets with Christ being the last, that CAUSES the destruction of the Temple and sack of Jerusalem. That corruption was ongoing to an extent throughout the time of ancient Israel in the Land. Thus according to the Law, and the Prophets, that destruction is told. And in the Daniel 9 Prophecy, here it is, separated for your consideration ...

Dan 9:26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; ...... and the end thereof shall be with a flood, ....and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

God Bless You

David

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

Jay Ross wrote:Sadly your statement that it could have occurred "ANY TIME during the Four Age" does not fit the other evidence available to us, i.e. Lamentations 5:19-22, Hosea 6:1-3.

Based on the Text you provided, the time is not specific as to when that would occur During that Generation/Age.Your reliance on Other Texts are below.....and they are not specific either.So, Any Time could be understood from That One Text you provided.

Lam 519 Thou, O LORD, remainest for ever; thy throne from generation to generation.20 Wherefore dost thou forget us for ever, and forsake us so long time?21 Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.22 But thou hast utterly rejected us; thou art very wroth against us.Hose 11 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

Jay Ross wrote:So then you are agreeing with me where I had previously said that it would occur during the fourth age, but towards the end of the fourth age

That's probably accurate to say, toward the End, rather than, Near the Very End. I think that's what you said before "Near the Very End". I stand corrected if you did not say it that way.

Jay Ross wrote:In both of these scriptures, the redemption of Israel does not happen until the beginning of the Fifth Age/Day with respect to God's time frame.

There again you have only stated an idea or opinion, there is nothing in either of those texts saying so.As I understand it, you are basing your idea on your understanding of the Timespan of "An Age" being 1025 years. Is there another place in scripture that describes and supports that? I don't believe you've ever Proven nor shown Good Evidence of that Jay.

Jay Ross wrote: In 1948, as Jesus foretold in Matthew 24:32, that some time before the beginning of the Harvest season/Millennium Age for mankind, around 100 years before the end of the present age, the dead Fig tree would again bring forth new life/leaves such that the nation of Israel was rebirthed which God has allowed to remain but with much tribulation and hardship.

reasonable enough...I can agree(if there is to be a Literal Millennial Reign of Christ) That, I've said before, I'm not Absolutely Sure of, I believe there will be, but i'm not adamant either way.

Jay Ross wrote:Jay Ross wrote:You have quoted from my post where I was providing a commentary and you request was framed to put doubt on what I had written.ST Answered:Yes I did. And that doubt is reasonable. Jay responded :Sadly this is a false argument technique which is not becoming of you.

Think as you wish, the text itself did not support your commentary of it. How is that a "false argument technique "?

Jay Ross wrote: Adding these two numbers together and then dividing them by four would give the approximate length of an age with the answer suggesting that and age is approximately 1025 years in length.

Again, please allow us to look at another place in scripture that supports 1025 years as an Age, Clearly mentioned that is, Not just your math.

Jay Ross wrote:Because so many people believe that 1948 was the fulfillment of when God stated that He will bring all of Israel back from the ends of the earth, {time wise} but in reality this is still in our distant future.ST wrote:That, "reality" you speak of, is again, your opinion. Nothing in that text Indicates At All that the Gathering occur NEAR the Very End of the Fourth Age......That's the point....the Text you've provide says nothing of the sort.Jay wrote:Again you are making a claim that is not supported by a proof which substantiates what you are writing/claiming in your attempt to invalidate what I have posted.

My response:You have provided No Proof that the Ingathering of 1948 IS Not the fulfillment that Is Presently Occurring, Now, DURING the Fourth Age.You Stated it as a "Reality" rather than simply Admit that it is Your Opinion only...."Reality" IS An Absolute.I didn't need to provide Proof....I'm not making any claim to no Absolutely the FACT of this matter, but you Are and that's the difference.You are claiming to know this "Absolutely", it is incumbent upon you to Provide the Proof of such, not me.

Jay Ross wrote:If you are the main protagonist of the Shorttrib theory, then you should know whether or not Genesis 15:16 has any impact on your theory.

On this forum, I may be....and that is probably good advice. I think I will do that as time permits.

Jay Ross wrote:Your insistence that it could have happened at any time is a requirement of your theory, but as scripture has shown, that was not the case and it had to have happened towards the end of the Fourth Age.

I did not insist that, I said only that the text you provided did Not Specify ANY Time DURING the Fourth Age.What is important to me only, is that such a gathering Occur In the Fourth Age, if that is Accurate to interchange Generation and Age...and I think it is accurate.But that gathering need only to occur In the Fourth Age then, not necessarily 30 years from now or so in our distant future. I don't think you can Prove that 1948 did not begin that, and claim others who understand such are wrong.

We may have traveled this road well beyond the initial topic though, I don't know.

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

keithareilly wrote:What I really am interested in is how each of your beliefs about the Seventy weeks and the One Week affect your End time view.

If it is 70 + 1 it would have the following affect as far as I can tell. Previously you mentioned the Necessity of Christ's sacrifice In the 70th week. Accordingly also you stated that there need not be any time specific During that 70th week for His death and resurrection. How that would affect my position, if the 70 + 1 idea were true would be this.

We would have a remainder of the 70th week that would be Unknown as to how long of future fulfillment the 70th week would require.

Then, it does seem to be a complication as to where all of the 3.5 year references found in Daniel and Rev. would find fulfillment during that unknown remaining 70th week time.

there are many other things...but those are the primary ones as far as I can see thus far while considering it.

keithareilly wrote:With regards to levels of prophecy, do you have a name for hierarchies of prophecy?With the verses in Daniel 9 describing the First Jewish Roman War, what would you label the Roman Jewish War level of interpretation? What do you name the other levels?

Two of the names I've already described, that being "Subservient" and "Primary". There are other names I've used to describe them before....Primary, Secondary.....Even "Decoy Fulfillment". I believe there are many reasons of God's choosing to have Shadow/Type, Subservient , Layers, or Repetitious Prophetic Fulfillments.

One reason, to Confound the Spirit of antichrist.antichrist/satan, also makes attempts IMO to fulfill certain prophecy with the Specific Goal to cause Chaos and Confusion of God's Primary Fulfillment and it's meaning.Yet God, simply Knows what antichrist would do and Uses antichrist's attempts to SERVE God's End Time plans.Such is the case IMO regarding the SubSERVient use of Titus and the Desolation of 70ad.

I believe something will occur in the very near future that will be Primary Prophecy Fulfilled, when the AOD begins (Probably at the Dome of the Rock) And That will begin the Part Two of the 70thweek.

But, what May occur, is what I will describe as a "Decoy Fulfillment", By antichrist to Bring Chaos and Confusion....And God Will Allow ItThat, "Decoy Fulfillment" ,intended by the enemy to confuse the world, will be Some Kind of SEVEN YEAR TREATY.

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Then, it does seem to be a complication as to where all of the 3.5 year references found in Daniel and Rev. would find fulfillment during that unknown remaining 70th week time.

In general, I think the 70th week and the one week have passed. No time, remaining.I see no reason to attempt to force outstanding 3.5 year prophecies in with Daniel 9.Lets assume they can stand on their own. Merged into some other one week prophecy or not.How does this affect what you see?

If you are going to rely on the English traditional translations to prove me wrong, then you have demonstrated that your understanding of the original Hebrew Text is very limited.

From my understanding of the Hebrew Text, Lamentations 5:19-21 should read as: -

O Lord they throne last forever, beyond our understanding/beyond what we can seeNow for a very long finite period of time of an age plus an age, {i.e. for two ages} you have forsaken us.O Lord if you turn us unto you, we will be turnedRenew us so that our days will be like those from our past days.But you will reject us and in your anger during this time you are vehemently against us.

This is in agreement with what I am suggesting.

But you are making a claim without any justifying evidence as is your "right."

Just an aside:-The time period of four ages is around, 4100 years and the length of an age is approximately 1025 years, and around 97.5% of the four ages passed before some of Abraham's descendants returned to the land. With respect to the four age, around 90% of the four age passed before some of Abraham's descendants returned to the land.

(Please note that 1025 is an approximation of the duration of an age and is not the actual length of an age. If you want to determine the length of an age, then determine the year in which Isaac was born as his birth occurred at the beginning of the third age. PS. remember to account for the duration of the flood otherwise you will end up with a half year in your calculation of a the length of an age.)

shorttribber wrote:

Jay Ross wrote:So then you are agreeing with me where I had previously said that it would occur during the fourth age, but towards the end of the fourth age

That's probably accurate to say, toward the End, rather than, Near the Very End. I think that's what you said before "Near the Very End". I stand corrected if you did not say it that way.

ST, again you have used a false argument tactic to discredit your opponent in a discussion, Miss quoting Him. And I like your "out statement," but you are hoping that the "dirt" will stick. Here is what you had previous quoted and written: -

shorttribber wrote:

Jay Ross wrote:Sadly Keith, this interpretation of Genesis 15:16 is the "traditional" understanding of this verse, because people could not get their head around something so far into the future and as such it is wrong on a number of counts. In the first portion of this verse, God was informing Abraham that towards the end of the fourth "Age" of the existence of Abraham's descendants, some 4,000 years after the birth of Isaac, and, that his descendants would return to the land in their own strength and without His help.

Where in the following text Jay does it say,"towards the end of the fourth "Age", and, "return to the land in their own strength"?

Gen 1516 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

And you could not remember what you had written a few days ago? Interesting?

shorttribber wrote:

Jay Ross wrote:In both of these scriptures, the redemption of Israel does not happen until the beginning of the Fifth Age/Day with respect to God's time frame.

There again you have only stated an idea or opinion, there is nothing in either of those texts saying so.As I understand it, you are basing your idea on your understanding of the Timespan of "An Age" being "approximately" 1025 years. Is there another place in scripture that describes and supports that? I don't believe you've ever Proven nor shown Good Evidence of that Jay.

{I have corrected what you believe I had said to what I actually did post for the sake of accuracy

I believe that Paul, if it is interpreted correctly, in Romans 11:25-27 confirms this idea where Paul speaks of the fullness in time of the heathen Gentiles trampling the sanctuary for 2,300 years is complete after which all of Israel will be saved/redeemed.

At the completion of the time of the heathen Gentiles the Armageddon Battle occurs on the earth where the kings of the earth will be judged at the same time that the battle in heaven ends and the fallen heavenly hosts are judged and imprisoned in the abyss/bottomless pit for 1,000 years. But the conclusions is simple me putting a number of prophetic ideas together that will occur at the same time.

But you are telling me that I have to prove what God has already ordained.

shorttribber wrote:

Jay Ross wrote:Jay Ross wrote:You have quoted from my post where I was providing a commentary and you request was framed to put doubt on what I had written.ST Answered:Yes I did. And that doubt is reasonable. Jay responded :Sadly this is a false argument technique which is not becoming of you.

Think as you wish, the text itself did not support your commentary of it. How is that a "false argument technique "?

Jay Ross wrote: Adding these two numbers together and then dividing them by four would give the approximate length of an age with the answer suggesting that and age is approximately 1025 years in length.

Again, please allow us to look at another place in scripture that supports 1025 years as an Age, Clearly mentioned that is, Not just your math.

ST you can determine that from the Bible the number of years that will pass between when Adam was created and when the end of the earth as we know it will cease and dividing that time span by 7 to calculate the actual length of an age. The number I have given, is only an approximation of the length of an age accurate to within a few years. That is why I clearly stated that it was approximately 1025 and not as you are doing stating that I had said that it was 1025 years in duration

Sadly there is one piece of evidence that needs to be extracted and determined because the Bible is silent as to when this crucial event actually took place to calculate the overall time span. Be that as it may be, if you come up with a whole number of years, then the answer determined could be reasonably assumed to be correct.

The number should be fairly close to the number, those hands.

shorttribber wrote:Jay Ross wrote:Because so many people believe that 1948 was the fulfillment of when God stated that He will bring all of Israel back from the ends of the earth, {time wise} but in reality this is still in our distant future.ST wrote:That, "reality" you speak of, is again, your opinion. Nothing in that text Indicates At All that the Gathering occur NEAR the Very End of the Fourth Age......That's the point....the Text you've provide says nothing of the sort.Jay wrote:Again you are making a claim that is not supported by a proof which substantiates what you are writing/claiming in your attempt to invalidate what I have posted.

My response:You have provided No Proof that the Ingathering of 1948 IS Not the fulfillment that Is Presently Occurring, Now, DURING the Fourth Age.

ST, neither does the Genesis 15:16 prophecy say that it is the Ingathering is occurring in this prophecy. If as Gen 15:16 suggests from its silence, God was not intimately involved in the 1948 establishment of the nation of Israel in 1948, then that is all of the proof that I need.

As for other scriptures that suggest that God will gather all of the redeemed of Israel at the end of the Seventh Age can be gleaned from the following passages, but not limited to just these passages: -

3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?

Jesus was answering 2 questions, 1) one about the sign of his coming, 2) the other about the end of the age.

The destruction of Jerusalem was about the end of the age. Vespasian, Titus, Daniel 9, etc

About His return Is a different time period, still future. Two time periods, two separate series of events.

Keith

Keith that is a very reasonable understanding of the traditional English translations but not one that I would hold too complete as explained below.

MY understanding of the two questions that Jesus was answering are: -

1) one about the signs of his comings, i.e. Jesus will be a frequent visitor to the earth but until his final visitation with all of the heavenly Hosts to Judge the earth, his visitations will be fleetingly short.

2)the other about the ends of the ages

Jesus in Matthew 24-25 described the events associated with the passing of three ages with Matthew 25 describing the primary events of the Millennium age.

It is also not my understanding that "The destruction of Jerusalem was about the end of the age. Vespasian, Titus, Daniel 9, etc." Daniel 9:26b has a time span for all of its events that spans two ages before the decreed end of this prophecy after which all of Israel will be saved.

However, the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the Israelite nation to the four corners of the earth, is the final sign of God's rejection of the nation of Israel because of their idolatrous behavior against God. As Joel clearly states, this was carried out by the one of the Greek subset of four influenced by "one of the heads" of the Third Beast of Daniel 7 which happens to be the Roman Empire. Daniel 8 tells us that The Greek Empire with the four horns will have influence over Jerusalem for 2,300 years which began around 250 BC around 70 or so years after the death of Alexandra the Great.

Now for the week in Daniel 9:27, for me, i agree with you that this is still to occur in our distant future. The verse is about a league that is entered into by the prince, (a fallen heavenly host), who prevailed over Jerusalem and destroyed it so that it became desolate.

Sadly many hold to the "traditional error" that this verse is speaking of Jesus entering into a new covenant with many through his death on the cross.

Jay Ross wrote:ST, again you have used a false argument tactic to discredit your opponent in a discussion, Miss quoting Him. And I like your "out statement," but you are hoping that the "dirt" will stick.

You know what jay, I think you have been told before By Moderators and Many People on this board about your continued Assaults on a Persons Character. You have just Accused me Personally of Being Disingenuous, or in other words, a Liar....since you have said this, "but you are hoping that the "dirt" will stick".

I will not read any further on your post. This will likely be my last response to any of your posts in the future until you've Learned to properly interact on this forum.

Last edited by shorttribber on Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Now for the week in Daniel 9:27, for me, i agree with you that this is still to occur in our distant future.

For clarity, I do not believe it is a future event. I believe the one week in Daniel 9:27 was the First Jewish Roman War.This is the second time you have said I believe something I do not.Please read more carefully, verifying your assumptions and facts before jumping to conclusions.

keithareilly wrote:What I really am interested in is how each of your beliefs about the Seventy weeks and the One Week affect your End time view.

Hi Keith. Years ago I hadn't gotten into the Daniel 9 Prophecy as it hadn't come up in my studies as a critical issue. When there came a rapture debate of epic proportions I had to address the 70th week with regards to the Pre trib view. I had been exposed to the Pre Trib view generally and thought it to be true, but upon reading the Scriptures I came to the conclusion it was not. Still, at that time I believed there was a full 7 years to deal with in the near future, but how to deal with that I hadn't studied on depth. I was going on the popular presumption there would be an antichrist figure who would form a peace treaty of some kind to cover the time period and break it in the middle at the AoD bringing on the Great Tribulation. I actually hadn't thought of Christ's Ministry and it's length of time in regard to the 70th week and the importance of gaining a proper understanding, being stuck on the popular rendering of the Daniel 9 Prophecy, and also being adamant the Christ does not make a 7 year Covenant, His are eternal. And I refused to believe He, Christ, would be doing the desolating during the time period He was supposedly administering. There is the block in my understanding, I would not listen, even to the Scriptures. So I could not see what I presently believe.

Then during a conversation right here with ST I was typing madly my reason for being so adamant about what I believe about our Christ it suddenly dawned on me, I had been mistaken. It was revealed to my heart the Prophecy is all about Christ and The Faithful, Daniel's people. At that time I could not formulate a premise for this belief, I just KNEW it to be true. So for the next odd number of years I tried and tried to prove in my own mind what I knew in my heart with the Scriptures. Only recently have I been able to do so.

My belief about the 70th week is basically unchanged as a result. As I understood it, the beginning of the week could not be established, even by a Pre Trib Rapture, so I was left to begin at the AoD the remaining 3.5 years, with much Scripture to explain that. With what seemed to be a primary influence on the larger conversation, that being a pre trib belief and RRE timeline, and my belief being primarily an islamic timeline paradigm, I would from time to time bounce some ideas off of and into the Daniel 9 Prophecy, still struggling with an antichrist concept of him doing the desolating. While this is essentially true in my understanding this happens in the second half of the week, little uncapped 'he' one is not the one responsible for it. The Hebrews and Jews are, according to the Law, with the Prophets explaining how and why that comes about. AS Christ has said, ' How many times I would have ... But ye would not'. The key for me became the word 'destroy' in Daniel 9:26. I came to understand the parse of the written word in the context of that verse to be ' the corruption that had gone on for so long being the cause of ' what was to come, the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem and the scattering of the people. So I am still at the point of believing there is only 3.5 years left of any timeline or time frame for the completion of so many Prophecy's, and especially Daniel 9. Through my continuous study I have come to the conclusion Christ's Earthly Ministry simply must be the first half of the week, beginning at His anointing at His baptism and ending at His death on the Cross. And the remaining half of the week is for the Great Tribulation beginning at the AoD and ending with Christ's return. As I have previously stated, all other Scriptures and Prophecy's fit nicely into the Daniel 9 Prophecy as it is entirely Messianic, it is all about Christ and His completed work, though in time it has not been completed. The curse of the Law for unbelief is still in effect, the Promise of the Blessing of belief is still in effect.

So, I have stated my view about the 70 and the one.

Don't tell me why I m wrong. Instead ...

I hope I haven't told you that you are wrong. Rather I hope I have stated why I believe the Scriptures say what they say. It's not about me being right or anyone else being wrong. It's about understanding the Truth of what the Scriptures say.

a) Tell me what you believe and how that affects your view and expectations of future prophecies fulfillment. b) Point out to me where my beliefs in the 70 and the 1 don't support that view.

I think, I hope, I have answered part a). Part b) is up to you to understand. This goes back to my original comment, 7+62+1=70. I am not able to see another week on top of that, simply because of the math. Seventy weeks are determined, not seventy one. That is the Prophecy, nothing else need be seen here. I do believe if you dwell on an extra week you will not come to the understanding I have and hold. I hope this helps explain the why of my position, and helps you in your understanding.

God Bless You

David

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

Jay Ross wrote:ST, again you have used a false argument tactic to discredit your opponent in a discussion, Miss quoting Him. And I like your "out statement," but you are hoping that the "dirt" will stick.

You know what jay, I think you have been told before By Moderators and Many People on this board about your continued Assaults on a Persons Character. You have just Accused me Personally of Being Disingenuous, or in other words, a Liar....since you have said this, "but you are hoping that the "dirt" will stick".

I will not read any further on your post. This will likely be my last response to any of your posts in the future until you've Learned to properly interact on this forum.

ST,I have no problems with that at all.

All I have stated is that you seem to be using false argument techniques and all I am doing is pointing that out.

Now, for the record, I have not accused you of being Disingenuous or of being a Lair. That has not been suggested by me at all. But so be it, it is your right to think that that is so.

Now for the week in Daniel 9:27, for me, i agree with you that this is still to occur in our distant future.

For clarity, I do not believe it is a future event. I believe the one week in Daniel 9:27 was the First Jewish Roman War.This is the second time you have said I believe something I do not.Please read more carefully, verifying your assumptions and facts before jumping to conclusions.

Thanks,

Keith

My apologies, Keith, I did word my agreement with your expressed view badly. I agree with you that the labelled 70th week which occurs in Daniel 9:27 does not immediately follow the the 62 weeks of years of Daniel 9:25 as some in this discussion are suggesting. What I should have said following that was that I personally believe that it is still a distant future event.

Sadly we are all guilty of not verifying our assumptions before jumping to conclusions and then stating them as facts.

Daniel 9:25-2625 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again[e] with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing.

Daniel 9:25 explicitly states the first 7 weeks followed by 62 weeks for a total is 69 weeks, (7+62)Daniel 9:26 implicitly states the 70th week, during which an anointed one shall be cut off. (+1)(7+62) + (1) = 70

Daniel 9:2727 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week,[g] and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

Daniel 9:27 contains another prophecy about a 1 week period that is not part of the 70 weeks. This prophecy is about the First Jewish Roman War during which the temple was destroyed in 70 AD.The one week in Daniel 9:27 is not the 70th week, It is its own individual prophecy lasting only one week.Daniel 9:27 also contains things that will happen after the one week, wars and desolations. These probably last until Israel became a nation again in 1948, perhaps even longer.

In summary Daniel 9:24-27 contains multiple prophecies but only two prophecies have a specified length. One prophecy last 70 consecutive weeks and the other prophecy lasts 1 consecutive week.The 70 weeks prophecy of verse 24 ends sometime after Christ was crucified.The 1 week prophecy of verse 29 is the First Jewish Roman War (66AD to 73AD) with the sacrifices stopped in 70AD.

The total number of weeks specified in these two prophecies is 71 weeks. These 71 weeks are not consecutive.Do not assume I am saying there is a 71 week prophecy, I am not, there is no 71 week prophecy.There is a 70 week prophecy and there is a 1 week prophecy.

keithareilly wrote:In summary Daniel 9:24-27 contains multiple prophecies but only two prophecies have a specified length. One prophecy last 70 consecutive weeks and the other prophecy lasts 1 consecutive week.The 70 weeks prophecy of verse 24 ends sometime after Christ was crucified.The 1 week prophecy of verse 29 is the First Jewish Roman War (66AD to 73AD) with the sacrifices stopped in 70AD.

The total number of weeks specified in these two prophecies is 71 weeks. These 71 weeks are not consecutive.Do not assume I am saying there is a 71 week prophecy, I am not, there is no 71 week prophecy.There is a 70 week prophecy and there is a 1 week prophecy.

Thanks Keith. The 7 weeks, 62 weeks, and beginning of the 1 week were consecutive. Presuming you are allowing for a gap in the last week , or are you ? what causes that gap, and what begins the continuation of the rest of the week ? Does the last week end at the destruction of the Temple some 40 years later ? Or is this entire week the Jewish Roman war ? As I understand it, that war lasted from sometime in 66 AD until 73 AD, is this the 7 year period you are calling the 70th week ? You have lost me some as I don't understand your explanation of the timing and/or gap of the last week of the Prophecy.

God Bless You

David

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

Daniel 9:26 implicitly states Christ was crucified during the 70th week. The 70th week started after he 69th week just like the 69th started after the 68th week.Just as the 68th week lasted 7 consecutive years, the 70th week also lasted 7 consecutive years.If Christ was crucified before the end of that 70th week, the week continued without gap until 7 years were up.No gap in the 70th week.The 70th week of Daniel 9:26 has expired, ending the 70 weeks prophecy.

Tens of years or so later started the 1 week in Daniel 9:27...

In 66AD, the 1 week of Daniel 9:27 started, That week ended 7 consecutive years later in 73AD without a gap.In 70AD, the middle of that week, the temple was destroyed and sacrifices stopped.That 1 week of Daniel 9:27 has now expired.

The one week prophecy of Daniel 9:27, The First Jewish Roman War, is still a Messianic prophecy.It is a Messianic prophecy because one of the reasons the temple was destroyed was because the Jews rejected Christ,the son of the owner of the vineyard, so they were destroyed and the vineyard (the world, where the wheat and tares grow) was turned over to others, the Christians.

Matthew 24:1-324 Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.” 3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Notice what prompts the disciples' questions on the Mount of Olives. It was the destruction of the temple.They asked him about when will these things be:1) the sign of your coming,2) and the end of the age

They wanted to know about when will be the destruction of the temple, the end of the age. Jesus told them about it and referenced Daniel 9:27 directly. Jesus is saying Daniel 9:27 is about the destruction of the Temple.Historically, we know this to be fact as the temple was destroyed in the middle of that one week mentioned in Daniel 9:27 which was the First Jewish Roman War. No stones of those building were left standing as Jesus said.

Jesus also told them about the time of his coming which is still yet in the future.

Hi Keith, sorry for my confusion, it happens. And thanks for your explanation. I have another question for you about Daniel 9:27. As the destruction of the Temple caused the sacrifices to cease in the midst of that week of war, has the rest of the verse been fulfilled at the end of this war ? I'm asking what is the consummation, and what is that determined to be poured out on the desolate. If you have Scriptural reference to these it would be very helpful.

Dan 9:27 ... and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

God Bless You

David

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

Exit40 wrote:Hi Keith, sorry for my confusion, it happens. And thanks for your explanation. I have another question for you about Daniel 9:27. As the destruction of the Temple caused the sacrifices to cease in the midst of that week of war, has the rest of the verse been fulfilled at the end of this war ? I'm asking what is the consummation, and what is that determined to be poured out on the desolate. If you have Scriptural reference to these it would be very helpful.

Dan 9:27 ... and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

God Bless You

David

David,

I don't know. Not all the prophecies in Daniel 9:27 are about the one week.There are certain things that are prophesied to specifically occur during the one week.Others are not specified to occur during that one week. The meaning of the verses vary with the version read.Some indicate they end with the death of Titus. Other version are not clear and mention multiple wars and desolations.Whether or not these others ended with the death of Titus, I am not convinced.

From a historical perspective, my best understanding would be the prophecy lasts until Israel is restored.What I do know, is that the ground was cursed for desolation. It did not flourish again until Israel again became a nation.This is evidenced by:1) Mark Twain described the land as a desert waste. 2) A Google satellite view evidences God's new blessings on the land.

Again, this is my "best guess" about verses that vary a great deal depending on the translation.Might even be longer.

In Summary:What I think we are reading in Daniel 9:26b-27 is about the end of the age of the Jews.It starts with the one week, in part as a consequence of crucifying Christ (verse 26a - cause, verse 26b - consequence), and lasts a very long time; though, it does eventually comes to an end.