I agree that one needs to find purpose and meaning in life and make the most of your life, but we can also allow for God in our lives if we wanted to and have a balance.

But that's just it; if you can make the most of your life, giving it purpose and meaning, why allow for God? There certainly isn't any reason to believe he exists, so what would the point be? To feel better? But we already lead a wonderful life without religion; there's already a balance. If anything, what you're proposing could very well throw off that balance. If I had to either follow a set of rules, quite a few of which I don't agree with, or live with the constant fear of being tortured forever, I don't think my life could be near as happy. I'd have to shun some of my best friends and family members I love because they're gay. I couldn't have had the relationship I have now with my wife because of Christianity's rules. How can you say God would bring balance when it would, without a doubt, completely tip the scale?

And of course there's also the issue of choosing WHICH God, but I won't get in to that right now.

hi Frofrodajimmyboy I just wanted to ask which christian rules would force you to get rid of your freinds and family, my understanding is that Jesus was having dinner in the tax collectors houses they were stealing and thiefs and he prevented a whole mob from stoning a prostitute to death, he didnt want her killed, he called a hated tax collector down from a tree, he wanted to go to lunch at his house, he wanted us to love our neighbour. There was a man attacked by robbers and left for dead, the religious people ignored him and it was a hated samaritan who helped him, Jesus wants us to be like the man who helped the man at the side of the road.

Im sure many many of you have been badly disappointed and hurt and let down by the church, by clergy, by sermons that didnt add up, Ive seen it all, Ive been in a church where suppossedly the Holy Spirit was moving and people were falling under the spirit and laying on the floor etc only years later i wanted to understand and read that it was not the Holy Spirit but something else, Ive seen the things that go on, im not ignorant to the faults and the jokes of the church. I do believe however many people claim to speak on behalf of God and acturally dont speak on behalf of God, many things that go on can put people off God for sure.

To address this;

I think it is important for you to bear in mind that there are many atheists who simply do not believe in gods. The fact that there are charlatans and abusers within the theistic community is a source of dismay and, possibly, amusement but that's not the principle reason why many don't believe. Personally speaking, I don't believe because I see no evidence for their existence. Whether or not the RC church is riddled with predatory paedophiles or other religions have their own shames is neither here nor there. I haven't been let down or disappointed by a church or religious people, I just don't believe in gods.

There was a man attacked by robbers and left for dead, the religious people ignored him and it was a hated samaritan who helped him, Jesus wants us to be like the man who helped the man at the side of the road.

Laura, you do know that the "Golden Rule" was articulated a long time before Jesus by many different people in many different cultures? It's not like Jesus invented kindness and empathy I'm not being critical of the teachings - I'm only critical of the reverence people assign to Jesus and incorrectly ascribing such ideas to Jesus as the originator.

It's impossible to reconcile gentle Jesus with his Father (or is it himself? ) as the God of the OT - perpetrating, commanding and aiding mass killings of sinners and His "enemies", and the "enemies" of His chosen people. God of the OT is a racist vengeful killer - no doubt about what is written.

Im sure many many of you have been badly disappointed and hurt and let down by the church, by clergy, by sermons that didnt add up, Ive seen it all ...

<snip>

I do believe however many people claim to speak on behalf of God and acturally dont speak on behalf of God, many things that go on can put people off God for sure.

Laura... this is another classic. Theists assume that we stopped believing in god because we had a bad experience, something or someone let us down, we're sad, angry, dissapointed.... this is absolutely false.

I did not lose my belief in god that way. I simply grew out of my believe like a child stops believing in Santa at a certain point. I didn't feel the presence of any god. I started reading the bible, investigating, listening to all the apologetics and arguments against his existence. I gradually stopped believing because reason, logic and an love for science lead me there. I realized there is no evidence whatsoever for a god.

Also, don't forget that there are atheists here who never believed in god. They were simply raised in a family of non-theists and were never indoctrinated.

Am I pissed off at child-raping priests and corrupt church officials? Of course. Am I pissed off that theists point at homosexuals as if they are wretched sinners? Of course! Am I pissed off that people are trying to pass legislation based on a 2000 year old book of of myths? Yes! ... but that's not what puts me off the idea. It's reality and the facts that do.

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Why did God want a sacrifice for sin and then have to send Jesus to die, was there not another way to deal with sin.

Are you asking us? 'cause we asked you that question.

Here's the answer in case you were wondering ... the Jesus myth was invented and written in the bible by a bunch of primitive supersticious men. These were primitive tribal men that carried out blood sacrifices and burnt offerings, enslaved other human beings and stoned women and opppressed them. Read your bible. For example, it tells you exactly how to treat your slaves:

hi Frofrodajimmyboy I just wanted to ask which christian rules would force you to get rid of your freinds and family,

My best friend and several of my family members are homosexual. I'd be forced to look down upon them, as associating with such sinners could very well land me in hell. Even if I were safe, I wouldn't find much comfort in the thought that the people closest to me would be tortured eternally. Sure, I could try to force them to be something they're not, but that would sever my bond with them pretty quick.

Of course, I could just disregard that rule, but then I'm just another Cafeteria Christian, which would not only make me look moronic, hypcoritcial, delusional, etc, but I'd also be risking hell again. We're talking about ETERNAL torture here; should I really take the chance of reading things anything but literally?

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my understanding is that Jesus was having dinner in the tax collectors houses they were stealing and thiefs and he prevented a whole mob from stoning a prostitute to death, he didnt want her killed, he called a hated tax collector down from a tree, he wanted to go to lunch at his house, he wanted us to love our neighbour. There was a man attacked by robbers and left for dead, the religious people ignored him and it was a hated samaritan who helped him, Jesus wants us to be like the man who helped the man at the side of the road

This is fairly preachy and not all the relevant to what I said. Yes, I get that the Bible says Jesus was a pretty cool guy. He wants us to help people, turn the other cheek (unless you're that god damned fig tree), and love our neighbor, but that doesn't mean much. None of that really contradicts the rules that were set out before, and he even adds some new ones to the fray, such as giving up all of our possesions. All those things he said about being good to others are things I already do and had begun doing naturally; "Allowing for God" would only introduce the bad aspects of the Bible to my life.

And then, of course, there's the simple fact that he doesn't exist. Every single thing in the Bible could coincide exactly with my values and it still wouldn't be meaningless. Sure, I'd hold the book in higher regard, but Jesus and his pop never existed, so why on Earth would I "allow for them"? Why would I denote time to worshipping fictional characters? A hundred other books (for example, Harry Potter) tought a better moral code than the Bible, so there are a lot of characters in line that I'd worship before God... That is, if I lost all of my sense and decided to worship fiction at all.

I have read all the replies, Im thinking about the question from Agga that many athiests were christians and believers and then just began to know believe that there is any God and I can see why,it may surprise you that I can see your point of view, im not here to hammer and push any one to believe what I believe and how I believe.

yep, you may have read them but you just ignored what they said. YOu just spew more nonsense to make yourself feel better. You also evidently can't be bothered to write like an intelligent human being, assuming your first language is English. You use enough colloquialisms to make me thing it is and that you are simply lazy and think it's cute.

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Im sure many many of you have been badly disappointed and hurt and let down by the church, by clergy, by sermons that didnt add up, Ive seen it all, Ive been in a church where suppossedly the Holy Spirit was moving and people were falling under the spirit and laying on the floor etc only years later i wanted to understand and read that it was not the Holy Spirit but something else,

Oh yere we go, the psychic Christian who "knows" why athesits are atheists. I was indeed let down by the church but then I went directly to God to give it a chance to show me why it let my church disintergrate into hatred. I prayed and prayed and not no answer. I then researched other religions and came to the conclusion, from the facts you understand, that all religions are man-made. YOu are also just one more vain Christian who wants to play pretend that you and only you are the OneTrueChristiantm

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Ive seen the things that go on, im not ignorant to the faults and the jokes of the church. I do believe however many people claim to speak on behalf of God and acturally dont speak on behalf of God, many things that go on can put people off God for sure. Why did God want a sacrifice for sin and then have to send Jesus to die, was there not another way to deal with sin. I agree that one needs to find purpose and meaning in life and make the most of your life, but we can also allow for God in our lives if we wanted to and have a balance.

Yep, more OneTrueChristiantm crap. It always amazes me that Chrisitans are so vain to think that they can speak for God but get so offended if someone else who disagrees wtih them makes the exact same baseless claim. I do like how you think you can ask the questions put to you and not bother answering them. I'm also amused that you are *still* desperately tryin to convince yourself that atheists are somehow unhappy and unwhole without your magical sky spook.

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hi Frofrodajimmyboy I just wanted to ask which christian rules would force you to get rid of your freinds and family, my understanding is that Jesus was having dinner in the tax collectors houses they were stealing and thiefs and he prevented a whole mob from stoning a prostitute to death, he didnt want her killed, he called a hated tax collector down from a tree, he wanted to go to lunch at his house, he wanted us to love our neighbour. There was a man attacked by robbers and left for dead, the religious people ignored him and it was a hated samaritan who helped him, Jesus wants us to be like the man who helped the man at the side of the road.

and one more Christian who cherry picks or maybe is just ignorant of her bible. Your "savior" has said repeatedly that one has to abandon one's family if one is worthy of following him. Read that holy book and you might be the one who gets shown something.

« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 12:27:34 PM by velkyn »

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

We use cell phones, TV, cars, radios, satelite transmissions all the time, we dont know how they work? do we see the signals going out from the signal towers so our cell to receive the signal?

IMNSHO, this is an extremely poor analogy. A lot of people do know how such things work; otherwise, they couldn't have invented such things. We also have instruments that can detect the "invisible" electromagnetic radiation created by such devices as transmission towers, but we are yet to invent a device that can detect supernatural radiation from gods.

are you very happy to just believe you came into existance, born, live, die and thats that, no more, nothing else, no reason, not going anywhere, no purpose, no meaning, we just born, live, die, cease to exist, end of story no more nothing more, there no angles, no devil, no heaven, no hell, no God or Jesus, no spiritual world not even demons or ghosts, what we see is what there is no more? just want to understand.

Well, if you really want to understand, Laura, try this thought experiment. It's one that I tried back in 1968.

Imagine yourself looking at the whole of the universal time line. Focus on any inhabited planet. Watch a civilization come into being. Watch it advance, degenerate, and fade away.

Now zoom out to the planetary scale.

Now do likewise with the universe as a whole, and the totality of existence from the moment of the Big Bang to the end of time.

You can even put your god and its heaven in there if you want, but it simply does not matter. Even if you get to spend forever and a day sitting at the side of Jesus, there is still no meaning or purpose to be found because there's always one more moment to explain.

So, where is the meaning of life? Try looking in the present moment... But leave your ego out of it. Currently I'm hugging a tabby cat who happens to be standing in my lap. Do whatever you like to do, but pay rapt attention to every possible detail as you do it. You won't have time for existential angst, because you'll be much too busy living your life.

Why would God require human sacrifice (Jesus) in order to forgive sins? Doesn't seem to make much sense when you think about it. Wouldn't he just be able to forgive under his own will? Don't see much point, or even relevance, in the whole crucifixion part.

I am seeing your points, I am not able to argue or im not trying to push my beliefs on you, i just like to chat to others different from me with different views, I do explore and find out other views, I find also that it is hard to believe in a God one cant see, touch or talk to audibly. Maybe i do seek a crutch or live fantasies, somehow a world with God makes more sense to me than without God and to you a world without God makes more sense, I suppose everyone is different and able to believe how they do, I talk to all people not just my little circle and close my eyes to the rest, I cant argue your points, but enjoy chatting not to prove im right and you wrong,

The difference is that atheists aren't out to tell everyone else how to live their lives. I could be wrong about the existence of gods but, even if I am right, that doesn't give me the authority to tell others how to dress, what they can eat, who they can love etc. which is what the theistic do to everyone else. Perhaps, in the security of your beliefs, you could spread the message amongst your fellow believers that you have no unique code of moral behaviour you can impose on others?

One final thing. Friendship and love are two of the most powerful emotions humans can have, they can propel us to unbelievable devotion and heroics. Please don't demean those emotions by professing them to random strangers on the internet. Save them for your real friends and your real loved ones.

I find also that it is hard to believe in a God one cant see, touch or talk to audibly. Maybe i do seek a crutch or live fantasies ...

Laura, it comes down to integrity. Let's say for one little minute there is a God and He can see into your mind ... would He respect you for pretending somehow to believe. Or would He respect you more for standing firm on the senses and reasoning power you have in your possession. Would a God actually want your eternal company in heaven if you regarded him as a "crutch" or some kind of comforting fantasy?

Can you find the honesty to say out loud that religion is man-made rubbish, and the courage to to say "I don't know"? Faith is a lazy escape route for not facing reality.

Hi do aethiests then perhaps have a stronger personality, more independant, more self thinking, able to do things themselves, not needing anyone to tell them what to do and how to do it, that takes a real strong person which is to be admired, as apposed to religious people who may have a dependant personality needing to depend on someyone and God. Would athiest be strong willed as to be able to start a company and make it grow and make lots of money and really make things work cause they depend on themselves and there is noyone else to depend on. Whereas religious folk need crutches and excuses and are weak personalities dependant on others and God?

Laura I'd hate to generalise like that - some "default" atheists are good-for-nothing flakes. What I'm talking about is a person who has really thought about what religion claims and has to offer, and has made a clear decision that evidence and reason does not support religion.

For me personally, when I finally found the courage to reject the baggage and childhood brainwashing of my religion, the awakening was profound. For the first time in my life I came to understand the term: "Internal locus of control." It was that realisation that put the spark back into my life.

I don't think it's that simple. It has been demonstrated that atheism corresponds with higher levels of intelligence and therefore they'll probably earn more on average. However, atheists are just humans too. I'm a university student and I try not to depend on other people when possible (which has worked out great in some situation), but on the other hand I don't have much will power. I think that an intelligent Christian who thinks God helps him with every steps he makes will be as capable as an intelligent atheist to lead a business.

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Quote from: George Bernard Shaw

The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one

Hi thanks for the replies, i do find that lots of things the overly overly religious people do are irritating, i follow my own kind of intellegence at the same time believe in God, but i am a very dependant on other people and God kind of person. I admire people like Ophra and so on who have had such a tough upbrining yet have really made something of her life. Id say maybe cause ive lived a protected life always at my parents home etc i became too dependant, but i feel God has given me the option to think for myself too, I can choose which career, which relationship, which path, but i havent really made the great success Id have liked to have made career wise, not really cause of religion maybe just cause i dont motivate myself enough, not a strong personality type, so i was comparing the success of someyone who has religion as aposed to someyone who doesnt, its really up to us, God has given me free choice of career etc

Hi thanks for the replies, i do find that lots of things the overly overly religious people do are irritating,

You know, the more 'overly' religious they are, the more closely they actually follow the texts in the bible.

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i follow my own kind of intellegence at the same time believe in God, but i am a very dependant on other people and God kind of person.

You are what we call a 'cafeteria christian'. My parents and family are the same. You believe in god in a way that doesn't interfere with your own values and morals. You have probably never read the bible[1] and you just keep the parts of your religion you are comfortable with.

In general, I don't have a problem with cafeteria christians, but on a personal level it annoys me because they are basically rolling up their own personal brand of faitytale religious superstitions and then passing it on to their kids. Religion creates an emotional dependency to it that is harmful to people. Reality is much better.

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I admire people like Ophra and so on who have had such a tough upbrining yet have really made something of her life.

I'll avoid a big Oprah debate here. I'll give her credit for her success story, but she has become morbidly manipulating to retain ratings from the american public... I despise that.

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Id say maybe cause ive lived a protected life always at my parents home etc i became too dependant, but i feel God has given me the option to think for myself too, I can choose which career, which relationship, which path, but i havent really made the great success Id have liked to have made career wise, not really cause of religion maybe just cause i dont motivate myself enough, not a strong personality type, so i was comparing the success of someyone who has religion as aposed to someyone who doesnt, its really up to us, God has given me free choice of career etc

Look Laura, there is no god. You happen to have been born into a christian, protective family. You happen to have the personality that you have. You happen to have found yourself in the circumstances that you found yourself with the choices that you find yourself with.

William's post showcases just how ridiculous it is for you to believe that god is giving you your trivial career choices while giving the child in the picture absolutely nothing. No food, no medicine, no hope.

It's not just ridiculous to hold such a belief, it's apalling and selfish.

You sound like a nice person Laura ... you don't really think god is giving you all these things while he completely deprives millions of children and innocent people worldwide of more basic things.

The only way to explain why there are starving children, natural disasters and innocent victims is that there is no god and this is just the way the world has played out up to now.

An all-loving, all-powerful god would not allow what you see in the picture to happen.

Praying to him is useless. He doesn't exist. Giving to charity to alleviate the suffering in this world is much more useful. WE, humanity, are the only ones that can do something about this. Not some imaginary fairytale daddy in the sky.

I dont understand why babies die, why there are badly deformed babies, one thing I know is God created a perfect world

The reason babies dies and are born badly deformed is that there is no loving god to look after them. The estimate is that about 25,000 children die every day in this world from malnutrition and preventable diseases. This is down from 40,000 a day just a couple of decades ago. This "improvement" is the result of man's power - better nutrition, better sanitation, and better health care. If we had waited on god, 40,000 or more would still be dying every day.

"According to the American Cancer Society, for all stages of pancreatic cancer combined, the one-year relative survival rate is 20%, and the five-year rate is 4%."[1] This is true despite prayer, belief and religion. The religious and praying and prayed-for die at the same rates as any others.

That is the basis of this site. The five-year rate of restoration of amputees' limbs is 0.00%.

Hi I agree that God should help the poor and the starving, just humour me for a minute, I know you dont believe in the Bible its a book of fairy tales, but just for one second say in Genesis where God said that man was to have dominion over the earth, they were supposed to cultivate the land and be responsible for the earths resources, what if they listened to the fairy tales in the Bible and helped the poor, starving and needy. People who have billions of dollars and who dont even know what to do with their billions, say they decided to help those poor people. Instead of being more and more greedy they would go to these starving nations and make programmes possible with their billions and billions of dollars that they use for things like war and killing and instead planted fields and made irrigation possible so these people could eat, a God given idea, the Bible the fairy tale book asks us to help the poor,istead ofmore castles, more boats, more luxuries, these billionaires help the starving that would be like "heaven on earth" im not sure if youll agree

istead ofmore castles, more boats, more luxuries, these billionaires help the starving that would be like "heaven on earth" im not sure if youll agree

And so God stands by watching the starving and the suffering ... waiting and watching and waiting for the selfish and the greedy to wake up to His own glorious word, to change themselves, to turn their backs on Satan, to do something that is obviously right and loving ... but that He the Almighty can fix in the blink of an eye

Do you realise you are saying God is using victims of suffering to teach a lesson and reach out to those who don't suffer?

I think you're gradually getting there Laura, at least you're no longer dispensing friendship and love in such an uncaring manner

Altruism of the kind you describe does not require any religious basis, there are many secular charities and the richest man in the World, Bill Gates, is definitely doing as you suggest. Can you guess his religion?

But it doesn't require billionaires to do good. A billion people giving a dollar is the same as one person giving a billion. Why not give to charity, either in cash or kind or time, just because it is the right thing to do?