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Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

First off, the entire point of the Lee example is to show that the ability to predict movement doesn't grant any sort of major advantage to dodging. Sasuke, despite reading enough of Lee's movements to later copy them for his own taijutsu and speed enhancement, couldn't lift a finger to block or evade Lee's attack. So the argument that the Sharingan makes "dodging with inferior speed easier" is obviously wrong, otherwise Sasuke would have been capable of dodging Lee. In order to move as fast as the attack he's dodging, Sasuke would need comparable speed to move fast enough.

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

Actually is to accept that darkness, me thinks.
Naruto didn't eradicate Dark Naruto ( btw, it was totally ripped off from Persona series ), he accepted him.
And we saw Jinchuurikis like Gaara and Yugito being able to go full-bijuu despite not being perfect Jinchuurikis

Such a horrible way. That was completely pointless, but at least it's more obvious Naruto is a different kind of shounen character. Where you had Goku, Luffy, Yusuke, and etc as purehearted individuals, Naruto had that dark side to him.

But they weren't in control like BEe and Naruto were. Gaara was usually asleep, and he couldn't sleep otherwise he'd go insane because of the Ichibi. Dunno about Yugito, don't think I saw enough of her. But any jinchuuriki can go full bijuu, it's tryin to get the bijuu to gtfo breaking free that'd be the problem.

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I believe the issue is that many genjutsu can't be broken, example a Sharingan one.
Being immune means that, theorically, you can break a genjutsu whenever.

Sharingan can be broken, though. It just so happens Itachi's one of the best, and apparently so is Madara. Sasuke's MS genjutsu was broken twice. I forgot if Sasuke put Shi in genjutsu with normal Sharingan or MS, though.

I think that's more to do with skills than immunity, as every genjutsu can be different. For example, Itachi can break out of almost any ocular genjutsu, but he may not be able to break out of sound genjutsu. Immunity to genjutsu may not theoretically exist, though immunity to sound OR ocular genjutsu might.

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That istance, he was trying to genjutsu Raikage ( do note his hand position, he was gathering/molding chakra ) .
If you notice he later one-shots Shi with a genjutsu on his own.
Unless he tried to kill Raikage with a stare

It doesn't necessary mean genjutsu, though. Might very well have to do with Sasuke himself not being as good enough in genjutsu to get Raikage in one. Though now I do wonder what he could have been concentrating for if he wasn't using genjutsu. ;x

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A good punch in the balls since he lost an invaluable memento

Doubt it's that invaluable. Minato most likely spammed marked kunai, there's couple in Konoha and nearby, or there was when he was alive.

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Yes, I was talking about how nature energy traveled through objects, enhancing Naruto's reach.
Same reason why imho a Juuken user could be able to theorically wound someone inside Susano'o, problem being if they can survive until then or a giant Susano'o punch

Oh, just saw the link where Naruto used frog fu to push the rod out. Objects are different from chakra though, methinks. If Susano'o is chakra, then a Juuken user should theoretically be able to get through it and/or break Susano'o in half or crack it on the way. Not sure if frog fuu could help, though.

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True, but Sharingan's predicting ability are pretty hax, if you are hit despite them it proves that you are really behind your opponent imho.
Always remember KN0 Naruto vs Sasuke, how it changed before and after the three tomoe

Not necessarily, as it can mean your opponent is unpredictable as well, like Naruto and Kyuubi chakra. Sharingan can't predict everything otherwise Sasuke woudln't have had trouble against the chakra arms as well. Sharingan users could be in trouble against an unorthodox ninja.

Also remember how Kyuubi chakra healed Naruto from a serious injury for free and gave him power, though I think it also rendered Naruto's left arm useless near the end.

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Well Deidara was pretty young when he was scouted, so he could've seen an Oonoki younger.
Oro did say that if Hiruzen was even 5 years younger he would've died.

Every fanbase has such fans, I talk about competent readers.
Of course everyone is biased on his own ways, I can't be objective when talking about Chouji, for example.
Or talking about the Nagato that was converted by a fucking book

Ten years younger, I think. So maybe every shinobi has his own age for losing power. We know Oonoki's losing power as well, as he claimed his chakra level wasn't as high as it used to be, and he randomly gets his back broken.... How young an Oonoki though?

Nagato is an idiot. He got owned or tricked in all of his fights (not counting Edo Tensei, as I still blame Kabuto for making Nagato look bad [I'm a Nagato hater, and I'm admitting Nagato is much better]). Secret saved him. D:

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

First off, the entire point of the Lee example is to show that the ability to predict movement doesn't grant any sort of major advantage to dodging. Sasuke, despite reading enough of Lee's movements to later copy them for his own taijutsu and speed enhancement, couldn't lift a finger to block or evade Lee's attack. So the argument that the Sharingan makes "dodging with inferior speed easier" is obviously wrong, otherwise Sasuke would have been capable of dodging Lee. In order to move as fast as the attack he's dodging, Sasuke would need comparable speed to move fast enough..

How come? It's because it was the first time sasuke use his sharingan in actual fight. So your example can't help you with your arguments. You're using sasuke's virgin sharingan to help your arguments.

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

Perhaps it because, as I mentioned, Kirabi never landed a blow to Sasuke due to mere prowess. Both of the blows he landed was due more to Sasuke's error then his superiority. And you do recall, that at the point he began to transform, only Sasuke was down and even then he was being healed at that moment. If he could only rely on Sasuke's mistakes to do any damage, then odds were that eventually Sasuke would have succeed the longer the fight went on.

He transformed after the Lariat, meaning Sasuke was nearly dead.
It would've been him against a wounded Suigetsu, Juugo and Karin, hardly an instance where he had to transform.
Also no, Sasuke was healed mid-transformation, if Bee would've followed up they would've been all dead

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How exactly is that any less a show of intelligences then figuring out Hidan needs to stand in the circle he purposely took the time to draw out and made mention towards it or guessing that a bunch of powerful techniques could break Chibaku Tensei? And what? He had already figured out Izanagi's mechanics and began planning against them before he tricked Danzo into confirming it. Tobi's explanation shows that.

Simple, Sasuke experienced and saw Izanagi in action time and time again, he didn't reach that conclusion after withnessing only one time the jutsu, he came to that conclusion after, like, 5 eyes closed. And if Danzou wouldn't be a moron, then Sasuke would've been left guessing.
Also it wasn't that incredible since Karin reached that conclusion at the same time.

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Except he knew that not only could Kabuto regenerate, but he would just liquify with the damage and thus not be in any sort of position to be blindsided. And his Enton Blade burnt away more webbing at once then his Chidori Blade would have, in addition to continuously burning more away afterward and creating a defensive wall. There was clearly more benefits to using Enton then Chidori, and no disadvantages.

How could he liquidize if water body is ultra weak to Raitons?
Remember how Suigetsu was stuck by Darui's sword? If any, Chidori based attacks would've been way more effective since, while Enton damages could simply be ignored thanks to oral rebirth + liquid body, Chidori attack wouldn't since they would block Kabuto's body.

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As I explained above, the entire Lee example was about how he still needed to be able to move fast enough, even with the forewarning. Sasuke seeing things ahead of time doesn't mean he can evade it if too slow. The advantage of prediction is minor, not major. Thus Sasuke's speed wouldn't be that far off from his opponents. In addition to that, we have to other examples, via Itachi and Kirabi, showing Sasuke moving comparably with fast ninjas without the advantage of prediction. Kirabi was fast enough to get between his brother and Naruto without either being able to react, without his cloak, so clearly Sasuke being able to manage against him without the Sharingan shows he's wasn't that slow.

How does any of that changes the original argument? Onoki and Chiyo are still keeping up with younger ninjas, and even Sarutobi went toe to toe with Orochimaru. When exactly has an elderly ninja hold a disadvantage to a younger ninja outside stamina?

Using a critical technique when it's needed isn't exactly spamming. Apart from one or two time, the only times Sasuke has used his MS techniques were when they were actually necessary.

Physical skills, general prowess on the battlefield.
Hiruzen kept up, yet Oro and the ANBU said time and time again how he was slower, less sharp, had less stamina and was weaker than even 5 years prior. Oonoki has a jutsu that lets him fight efficently, it isn't him being fast naturally, and Chiyo was helped since she could anticipate Sasori's movements, and also because, as a puppeter, her attack doesn't depend on her physical skills.

If you need Susano'o in every fight against Kage level ninjas of every type, you can't make arguments that Sasuke is comparable to said kage level ninjas without Susano'o, and Mangekyo skills.
Sasuke and Itachi didn't use Susano'o once or twice, they continuosly spammed it

Such a horrible way. That was completely pointless, but at least it's more obvious Naruto is a different kind of shounen character. Where you had Goku, Luffy, Yusuke, and etc as purehearted individuals, Naruto had that dark side to him.

But they weren't in control like BEe and Naruto were. Gaara was usually asleep, and he couldn't sleep otherwise he'd go insane because of the Ichibi. Dunno about Yugito, don't think I saw enough of her. But any jinchuuriki can go full bijuu, it's tryin to get the bijuu to gtfo breaking free that'd be the problem.

Actually if Kyuubi ever reached the ninth tail, he would be free, according to Yamato at least.
Never understood why, even with lesser seals ( the Naruto one is the best, apparently ) other non-perfect Jinchuurikis could go full bijuu

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Sharingan can be broken, though. It just so happens Itachi's one of the best, and apparently so is Madara. Sasuke's MS genjutsu was broken twice. I forgot if Sasuke put Shi in genjutsu with normal Sharingan or MS, though.

I think that's more to do with skills than immunity, as every genjutsu can be different. For example, Itachi can break out of almost any ocular genjutsu, but he may not be able to break out of sound genjutsu. Immunity to genjutsu may not theoretically exist, though immunity to sound OR ocular genjutsu might.

I doubt someone can break through a Sharingan genjutsu without having a Sharingan or having a bijuu, and Shi was one-shotted by a genjutsu, it is unclear if it was a MS or a regular one since he doesn't show his eyes when he uses it.

Actually Itachi showed to be unable to break Tayuya's genjutsu by himself, meaning that the Sharingan "immunity" likely works only on the ocular kind, bar the Niidaime Mizukage one, since it is a mist very much like Zabuza's Kirigakure no jutsu that can impair the vision.
Without sensing abilities to sense the summon, it is pretty impossible to find him.

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It doesn't necessary mean genjutsu, though. Might very well have to do with Sasuke himself not being as good enough in genjutsu to get Raikage in one. Though now I do wonder what he could have been concentrating for if he wasn't using genjutsu. ;x

It wouldn't explain why A would be angry at himself for being caught in a "measly Sharingan genjutsu" though, and Sasuke is only inferior to beasts like Shisui, Itachi and Madara in the genjutsu department, I believe he is very competent if we compare him to the average Uchiha

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Doubt it's that invaluable. Minato most likely spammed marked kunai, there's couple in Konoha and nearby, or there was when he was alive.

Well its invaluable because that way Naruto could start working on Hiraishin.
Hell why not say "son, I have 3 fodd... ehm, the 3 ones that used to be on my personal guard, they know Hiraishin, let them teach you"

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Oh, just saw the link where Naruto used frog fu to push the rod out. Objects are different from chakra though, methinks. If Susano'o is chakra, then a Juuken user should theoretically be able to get through it and/or break Susano'o in half or crack it on the way. Not sure if frog fuu could help, though.

I did say theorically, and Susano'o and bijuus works on the same principle:
giant masses of chakra that gain a physical consistence.
That's why both styles could be well suited to fight it.

On a side note, how haxed would be a Hyuuga with Sage Mode?

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Not necessarily, as it can mean your opponent is unpredictable as well, like Naruto and Kyuubi chakra. Sharingan can't predict everything otherwise Sasuke woudln't have had trouble against the chakra arms as well. Sharingan users could be in trouble against an unorthodox ninja.

Also remember how Kyuubi chakra healed Naruto from a serious injury for free and gave him power, though I think it also rendered Naruto's left arm useless near the end.

Unless the thing has a mind on his own ( like Naruto's chakrarm ), then the Sharingan can predict it, its manga canon.
I was talking about no tailed Naruto though, not the one tailed one

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Ten years younger, I think. So maybe every shinobi has his own age for losing power. We know Oonoki's losing power as well, as he claimed his chakra level wasn't as high as it used to be, and he randomly gets his back broken.... How young an Oonoki though?

Nagato is an idiot. He got owned or tricked in all of his fights (not counting Edo Tensei, as I still blame Kabuto for making Nagato look bad [I'm a Nagato hater, and I'm admitting Nagato is much better]). Secret saved him. D:

If Oro believed a 5 years younger Hiruzen would've killed him, I believe every year counts when you are that old.
I think Deidara was... 19, maybe, when he appears in part 2, he was scouted at 13, meaning he could've saw a slightly younger Oonoki. Mind you I'm basing this on memory.

Too true, even part 1 Naruto fought better than him against smokescreens

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

No one said otherwise, many, me included, said that Itachi and Madara are, skill-wise, better than Sasuke.
At least I don't remember saying that Itachi or Madara could beat any of the actual kages bar Tsunade

Not many,and you make this claim while Sasuke has better feats,and a better arsenal in the Manga. While Madara has shown one Jutsu and Kick another are the only feats he has without using Hashirama cells or sharingan, that's enough to make such a claim? Itachi has a little more to work with, but mainly due to his accomplishments before the manga. Yes, he has shown more then Madara but not as much as Sasuke.

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Saying that Sasuke is comparable to A in speed, for example, is unjustified and exagerated hype, imho.
Same as saying that Sasuke has speed even to Yondaime, or that he is one of the most intelligent guys in the manga, and those are only the most recent examples I witnessed in this days.

I have never,not once made the speed comparison to A,or Minato. I also said that i believe that Minato would beat Sasuke due to being smarter, enough though Sasuke has a much better arsenal. Yet you bunch us all together like we all said the same thing... like robots or something

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I was being overly dramatic on purpose, you know, being ironic it was without malice

Or are you really just like kay and Marshall? Your resents comments proves the latter

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Originally Posted by marshall313

How come? It's because it was the first time sasuke use his sharingan in actual fight. So your example can't help you with your arguments. You're using sasuke's virgin sharingan to help your arguments.

That's part of the point. That the Sharingan isn't as all-powerful as some people make it out to be.

A says: Sharingan enables someone with inferior speed to dodge more easily
B (me) said: It does not for all cases. If that were entirely true, Sasuke would have dodged Lee when they fought that first time.

Here's another example:
Let's look at Sasuke's fight with Killer Bee, where his Sharingan clearly isn't virgin.
Sasuke was overwhelmed by Killer Bee's fighting style. Even with his Sharingan activated.

It's stated in the series. I'm not just making it up.
You need to physical ability to be able to utilize the predicting ability that the Sharingan offers.

Also the Sharingan enables someone with inferiour speed, but the ability to predict movement, dodging much easier. How can you even argue that it's wrong? We don't talk about much inferiour speed, but inferior/lesser speed. Think of slow motion as in bullet-time in the Matrix with a non-Neo character. They aren't super fast, but have a way to react to every single movement seeing them more slowly.

Last edited by Schabrak; August 11, 2012 at 10:12 AM.
Reason: missing a word + grammar

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Originally Posted by Prince Sasuke

Not many,and you make this claim while Sasuke has better feats,and a better arsenal in the Manga. While Madara has shown one Jutsu and Kick another are the only feats he has without using Hashirama cells or sharingan, that's enough to make such a claim? Itachi has a little more to work with, but mainly due to his accomplishments before the manga. Yes, he has shown more then Madara but not as much as Sasuke.

I have never,not once made the speed comparison to A,or Minato. I also said that i believe that Minato would beat Sasuke due to being smarter, enough though Sasuke has a much better arsenal. Yet you bunch us all together like we all said the same thing... like robots or something

Then we're cool, I never said "every Sasuke fan is a tard fanboy" or "every Sasuke fan believes he is god", you can't deny though that the majority of his fans likes to ultrahype him.
if you don't, good for you.
Also as I said to M3J its not only for Sasuke's fanbase, every fanbase is summed up by stereotyped ideas ( Yondaime fans, Jiraiya fans, Itachi fans, Naruto fans ).
You are a Yondaime fan? You believe he is immune to genjutsu.
You are a Jiraiya fan? You believe he > Itachi & Kisame

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Or are you really just like kay and Marshall? Your resents comments proves the latter

Is resentment believing that Sasuke isn't a god?
If so then yes, I resent him lol.
If you intended that I resent Sasuke fans, I actually don't, I have ( usually ) fairly civil debates with them all the time, just to make an example Rikudou King and I are debating on the Arena for 3 pages straight and neither wrote anything even remotely insulting

Originally Posted by Exodi

That's part of the point. That the Sharingan isn't as all-powerful as some people make it out to be.

A says: Sharingan enables someone with inferior speed to dodge more easily
B (me) said: It does not for all cases. If that were entirely true, Sasuke would have dodged Lee when they fought that first time.

Here's another example:
Let's look at Sasuke's fight with Killer Bee, where his Sharingan clearly isn't virgin.
Sasuke was overwhelmed by Killer Bee's fighting style. Even with his Sharingan activated.

It's stated in the series. I'm not just making it up.
You need to physical ability to be able to utilize the predicting ability that the Sharingan offers.

Do see this scan.
The fact that the Sharingan makes dodging way more easier is a manga canonical fact, that you still need the speed to dodge its also true, but the speed required to dodge for a Sharingan user is <<<< the speed required to dodge for a non-Sharingan user that can't predict what the opponent will do next.

Parallels Naruto X Gundam 00

I'm somehow sure that someone had thought of that too before, but I don't care.^^

It feels more and more like Kishimoto copied parts of Gundam 00 with Tobi/Akatsuki being Celestial Being, causing chaos to unite the opposing forces of the world, only with Tobi not realizing that his plan is already being fullfilled with the united Shinobi forces and Naruto/the new generation of ninja working transnational. Someone has to be really blinded not to realize that his idea of utopia is the death to emotions, turning everyone into his puppets.

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Also the Sharingan enables someone with inferiour speed, but the ability to predict movement, dodging much easier. How can you even argue that it's wrong? We don't talk about much inferiour speed, but inferior/lesser speed. Think of slow motion as in bullet-time in the Matrix with a non-Neo character. They aren't super fast, but have a way to react to every single movement seeing them more slowly.

I'm just arguing with myself because I'm that bored.

I'd show you who I originally responded to, but at this point I don't really care anymore.
Too many walls of text to go through.

Sasuke is great and Minato is great and they both should just get married and make super ninja babies.

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Originally Posted by marshall313

How come? It's because it was the first time sasuke use his sharingan in actual fight. So your example can't help you with your arguments. You're using sasuke's virgin sharingan to help your arguments.

First time? No, that wasn't the first time Sasuke had used his Sharingan in battle. The battle with Haku would be the first time, presuming throwing kunai at Itachi did count as a fight. Regardless, there was nothing virginal about his abilities.

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

He transformed after the Lariat, meaning Sasuke was nearly dead.
It would've been him against a wounded Suigetsu, Juugo and Karin, hardly an instance where he had to transform.
Also no, Sasuke was healed mid-transformation, if Bee would've followed up they would've been all dead

Both Suigetsu and Juugo had shown they were capable of buying time for Sasuke, as Kirabi had previously witness. He also had previously witness Karin completely healing Sasuke.

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

Simple, Sasuke experienced and saw Izanagi in action time and time again, he didn't reach that conclusion after withnessing only one time the jutsu, he came to that conclusion after, like, 5 eyes closed. And if Danzou wouldn't be a moron, then Sasuke would've been left guessing.
Also it wasn't that incredible since Karin reached that conclusion at the same time.

How is that any different then Shikamaru seeing Hidan in action? How long did it take for Jiraiya to figure out Pain's shared vision? Heck, even Minato needs to see Tobi's ability several times before he came up with a counter plan. Sasuke had came to the conclusion and created a counter plan after the first four times, at most within the span of several minutes, long before he tricked Danzo or Karin figured it out. Again, Tobi pointed that out, how Sasuke's first genjutsu was a test to see whether one would work on Danzo, which set the stage for his end game.

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

How could he liquidize if water body is ultra weak to Raitons?
Remember how Suigetsu was stuck by Darui's sword? If any, Chidori based attacks would've been way more effective since, while Enton damages could simply be ignored thanks to oral rebirth + liquid body, Chidori attack wouldn't since they would block Kabuto's body.

Suigetsu was shown liquidfying when Darui stuck him to the wall. How would they have been more effective when Kabuto could have shugged them off thanks to his healing ability? And how would they have prevented him from using Oral Rebirth to just create a new body?

Where did I state it was "no help dodging"? My entire point was the "prediction is minor, not major" and that "comparable speed is required". You example doesn't disprove anything I've claim.

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

Physical skills, general prowess on the battlefield.
Hiruzen kept up, yet Oro and the ANBU said time and time again how he was slower, less sharp, had less stamina and was weaker than even 5 years prior. Oonoki has a jutsu that lets him fight efficently, it isn't him being fast naturally, and Chiyo was helped since she could anticipate Sasori's movements, and also because, as a puppeter, her attack doesn't depend on her physical skills.

If you need Susano'o in every fight against Kage level ninjas of every type, you can't make arguments that Sasuke is comparable to said kage level ninjas without Susano'o, and Mangekyo skills.
Sasuke and Itachi didn't use Susano'o once or twice, they continuosly spammed it

I don't recall him being mentioned slower. Less stamina, yes, which I pointed out. You realize that Onoki hasn't be relying solely on his ability to fly in recent fights, right? He's been shown fighting without it too, while in an exhausted state. And "anticipating Sasori's movements" was only in the beginning of the fight. Chiyo had to do more then that as the fight went on.

What kind of logic is that? Minato needed Hiraishin against a bunch of fodder chuunin, guess that means he's not even that level by your logic, right? Besides, we know Sasuke's comparable because we've seen him fight against Kage level ninjas even before he gained Susanoo. They activated susanoo when they needed it's protection, or a faster attack in Sasuke's case, then proceeded to deactivated. It's not at all like they kept it activated the entire fight.

Also the Sharingan enables someone with inferiour speed, but the ability to predict movement, dodging much easier. How can you even argue that it's wrong? We don't talk about much inferiour speed, but inferior/lesser speed. Think of slow motion as in bullet-time in the Matrix with a non-Neo character. They aren't super fast, but have a way to react to every single movement seeing them more slowly.

Talking about "inferior speed" is claiming otherwise, because if it worked that way, then neither Lee or Ee using his max speed should have left Sasuke motionless. Sasuke predicted Kirabi's movement, but he also showed that he was roughly even with Kirabi's speed even without the Sharingan, and Kirabi was shown around the same speed as base Ee and cloaked Naruto.

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

Simple, Sasuke experienced and saw Izanagi in action time and time again, he didn't reach that conclusion after withnessing only one time the jutsu, he came to that conclusion after, like, 5 eyes closed. And if Danzou wouldn't be a moron, then Sasuke would've been left guessing.
Also it wasn't that incredible since Karin reached that conclusion at the same time.

Difference between Sasuke and Karin is that Karin could easily see what was going on without fearing for her life too much, as she wasn't fighting like Sasuke was.

It's like with puzzles or playin chess. As a bystander, you can point out things more easily to players, but as a player, it's harder to find a good solution or move. Sasuke was distracted since he was fighting with his life, Karin didn't need to worry at the time.

If you need Susano'o in every fight against Kage level ninjas of every type, you can't make arguments that Sasuke is comparable to said kage level ninjas without Susano'o, and Mangekyo skills.
Sasuke and Itachi didn't use Susano'o once or twice, they continuosly spammed it[/quote]
Naruto needs Kyuubi chakra in every fight against kage level ninjas. That or Sage Mode. Without either, he'd be jounin level at the best, most likely chuunin level. Minato would not have been as renown as he is without Hiraishin either. Unlike Sasuke and even Itachi, Minato's shown nothing out of Hiraishin and rasengan.

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Actually if Kyuubi ever reached the ninth tail, he would be free, according to Yamato at least.
Never understood why, even with lesser seals ( the Naruto one is the best, apparently ) other non-perfect Jinchuurikis could go full bijuu

I know.

They could go full bijuu, but not be able to control themselves. It's like how Gaara needed to go to sleep to go full bijuu mode. Not sure about Yugito or other imperfect jinchuuriki, though.

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I doubt someone can break through a Sharingan genjutsu without having a Sharingan or having a bijuu, and Shi was one-shotted by a genjutsu, it is unclear if it was a MS or a regular one since he doesn't show his eyes when he uses it.

Actually Itachi showed to be unable to break Tayuya's genjutsu by himself, meaning that the Sharingan "immunity" likely works only on the ocular kind, bar the Niidaime Mizukage one, since it is a mist very much like Zabuza's Kirigakure no jutsu that can impair the vision.
Without sensing abilities to sense the summon, it is pretty impossible to find him.

I think it depends on the skills of the genjutsu user and the victim. Sakura should be able to break out of Obito's genjutsu, even if she finds it impossible to break out of Itachi's genjutsu. Let's not forget, Orochimaru was breaking out of Itachi's genjutsu but Itachi cut Orochimaru's hand off.

I don't think Shi was one-shotted by genjutsu, but I guess I have a different definition.

Actually, it could be possible that Itachi and Sasuke used genjutsu on each other as that was the fastest way of breaking out of sound genjutsu over trying to break out themselves.

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It wouldn't explain why A would be angry at himself for being caught in a "measly Sharingan genjutsu" though, and Sasuke is only inferior to beasts like Shisui, Itachi and Madara in the genjutsu department, I believe he is very competent if we compare him to the average Uchiha

Arrogance? Because he genuinely thinks he's insusceptible to genjutsu?

We don't know how good an average Uchiha was with Sharingan genjutsu.

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Well its invaluable because that way Naruto could start working on Hiraishin.
Hell why not say "son, I have 3 fodd... ehm, the 3 ones that used to be on my personal guard, they know Hiraishin, let them teach you"

Would he know how? It looks like Hiraishin could be a complex thing to learn. I'm sure Minato had his reasons for not telling Naruto about HIraishin. It might also take Minato himself to explain the whole thing, which they had no time for.

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I did say theorically, and Susano'o and bijuus works on the same principle:
giant masses of chakra that gain a physical consistence.
That's why both styles could be well suited to fight it.

On a side note, how haxed would be a Hyuuga with Sage Mode?

Looked like some empty space when Naruto pushed the rod out, though. Or it could ahve been muscle mass or something.

Depends. D: Neji would be uber haxxed. Hinata would be meh.

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Unless the thing has a mind on his own ( like Naruto's chakrarm ), then the Sharingan can predict it, its manga canon.
I was talking about no tailed Naruto though, not the one tailed one

Doesn't always help, though. Sasuke still got hit by Bee's swords.

I know. I'm just saying, Kyuubi is just as haxxed. I don't see Sharingan as any different from Sage Mode in predictive abilities, other than Sage Mode givin enhanced abilities.

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If Oro believed a 5 years younger Hiruzen would've killed him, I believe every year counts when you are that old.
I think Deidara was... 19, maybe, when he appears in part 2, he was scouted at 13, meaning he could've saw a slightly younger Oonoki. Mind you I'm basing this on memory.

Too true, even part 1 Naruto fought better than him against smokescreens

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Originally Posted by M3J

Difference between Sasuke and Karin is that Karin could easily see what was going on without fearing for her life too much, as she wasn't fighting like Sasuke was.

It's like with puzzles or playin chess. As a bystander, you can point out things more easily to players, but as a player, it's harder to find a good solution or move. Sasuke was distracted since he was fighting with his life, Karin didn't need to worry at the time.

Actually its the countrary imho, when fighting you have an unique insight that bystanders don't have, and besided Sasuke observed a lot when he spammed Susano'o, and with the Sharingan he could see Danzou's chakra taking a dip just as well as Karin sensing it.
If you see chakra taking a dip when an eye closes, its a dead give-away

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Naruto needs Kyuubi chakra in every fight against kage level ninjas. That or Sage Mode. Without either, he'd be jounin level at the best, most likely chuunin level. Minato would not have been as renown as he is without Hiraishin either. Unlike Sasuke and even Itachi, Minato's shown nothing out of Hiraishin and rasengan.

Why always bring up Naruto and Yondaime?
We are talking about Sasuke, and Sasuke alone.
Don't transform every debate in a Sasuke vs Naruto thing, please

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I think it depends on the skills of the genjutsu user and the victim. Sakura should be able to break out of Obito's genjutsu, even if she finds it impossible to break out of Itachi's genjutsu. Let's not forget, Orochimaru was breaking out of Itachi's genjutsu but Itachi cut Orochimaru's hand off.

I don't think Shi was one-shotted by genjutsu, but I guess I have a different definition.

Actually, it could be possible that Itachi and Sasuke used genjutsu on each other as that was the fastest way of breaking out of sound genjutsu over trying to break out themselves.

Well if it takes 20 seconds to break a genjutsu, its pretty much an one-shot ability.
And let's not forget that Itachi at the time was 13, nowhere near his actual level of skills, theorically.

Maybe, but they were paralyzed and couldn't move more than the head.
If you don't have an ability like Shikamaru's, that can hurt you without needing to move, then you can't escape Tayuya's genjutsu by yourself since you can't do handseals nor inflict pain to dispel it.

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Arrogance? Because he genuinely thinks he's insusceptible to genjutsu?

We don't know how good an average Uchiha was with Sharingan genjutsu.

True.

Sasuke was said to be pretty talented, and I doubt any Uchiha could catch Orochimaru in a genjutsu and reverse his own jutsu on himself.

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Would he know how? It looks like Hiraishin could be a complex thing to learn. I'm sure Minato had his reasons for not telling Naruto about HIraishin. It might also take Minato himself to explain the whole thing, which they had no time for.

He has all the time in the world after the war to learn it, if Yondaime really believed in Naruto then he would believe in Naruto winning.
Thus being able to being teached without a problem.
Hell Naruto has the most haxed way of training ever, 2 or 3 days of spamming 1000 clones and he would've mastered Hiraishin without a problem

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Looked like some empty space when Naruto pushed the rod out, though. Or it could ahve been muscle mass or something.

Depends. D: Neji would be uber haxxed. Hinata would be meh.

The lines suggest flesh, if you see how it bends.

Neji would really be a beast, sensing + super strenght + juuken and Byakugan really would be a tough match for anyone, since it eliminates the Byakugan blind spot, just to name one.
And you can blast the opponents with Juuken without directly touching them with nature energy

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Doesn't always help, though. Sasuke still got hit by Bee's swords.

I know. I'm just saying, Kyuubi is just as haxxed. I don't see Sharingan as any different from Sage Mode in predictive abilities, other than Sage Mode givin enhanced abilities.

No ability is absolute, to predict doesn't mean to dodge, it doesn't change the fact that Sharingan's predicting abilities is way over the top.

When I said that Kyuubi isn't haxed?
Where I mentioned Kyuubi in the first place?
Never said that the Sharingan mustn't be haxed or something

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He said Hiruzen who was a decade younger.

That's Nagato though. Would be owned in every fight.

Ty, it would still mean he would be around 70 years old, too old either way.

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

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Look how big Madara's Susano'o is.
Then compare it to this fucking huge Katon. Sasuke would be so burned his progenie a thounsand years later would feel the burn.
Madara is on another different level altogether

Why is it you always bring up EMS jutsu when we are talking about non sharingan jutsu? His Katon jutsu was great, but to say that makes him on another level is not accurate.

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Then we're cool, I never said "every Sasuke fan is a tard fanboy" or "every Sasuke fan believes he is god", you can't deny though that the majority of his fans likes to ultrahype him.

Well you did put me in the list so its safe to assume that you believe i thought he was a God.

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Is resentment believing that Sasuke isn't a god?
If so then yes, I resent him lol.
If you intended that I resent Sasuke fans, I actually don't, I have ( usually ) fairly civil debates with them all the time, just to make an example Rikudou King and I are debating on the Arena for 3 pages straight and neither wrote anything even remotely insulting