JennKBM wrote:I don't know much about the sport to truly form an absolute opinion on rather it should be done or not.. Though highly respect the discipline and time spent on training, working with these dogs or any other dogs. I do however have much reserve and issues to the idiots that run out and buy a sleeve then claim to have "protection dogs" etc. It's these idiots that think just because there dog plays the "game" and attacks as told, they are suddenly protection trained and use this to sell pups, and make profit. I've seen a site where they posted so called "training" videos and the dogs noticeably did not and would not follow commands. Nothing but an accident waiting to happen! Those people should NOT be doing any bitework or even be allowed to own a dog in my opinion... Owners such as those are what I believe create a "bad taste" towards APBT's doing such work.

Now, I'll make a new thread for those pictures so as to not hijack this one.

EXACTLY!!!!!

That is like judging Pit Bulls based on the dirtbag owners who let them run loose and cause problems, or who don't alter them and just tie them in the back yard and forget about them.

You can not judge protection work based on the morons. Unfortunately, there are just as many personal protection morons as there are dog owner morons. It doesn't matter what breed.

Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.

I have heard from a few people that they feel that weight pull is cruel. "Look at how hard they make that dog strain into the harness," etc. It never occurs to some poeple that our dogs actually like doing this stuff.

If you have found a pit bull who is happy to bite a human being just like he is happy to pull weights you have found yourself an unsound animal.
With all the sports and ways to promote the image of the breed there is something wrong with folks who can't see why promoting protection work damages the breed.
I might be alone in thinking this but supporting protection work on a forum where the clueless newbie gets the wrong ideas on what these dogs are supposed to be about is a mistake.What a way to screw the breed.Who needs enemies with such friends of the breed?

There are going to be stupid ignorant people who hate this breed regardless of what it is trained to do. Besides, if pit bulls dont do it, those people are just going to hate rotties and shepherds. Is that ok?

I also know nothing about the sport, but after seeing Connor work the bite sleeve, he totally formed my oppinion on it. He was having a BLAST. He was not being vicious, he was playing TUG!

I am amazed by the amount of training that goes into it. There are always going to be idiots who dont know what they are doing, but thats a part of owning a pit bull. Whats important is showing that there can be responsible ways of doing it. By fearing what the ignorant will think, you are just showing them that they are right! Dont train the pit bull to bite a sleeve! It will make it attack a baby! Ahh!

Dogs DO bite to protect themselves, out of fear, that's why we socialize them. They bite because it is their nature. Who hasn't taught their puppy to not chew on them? That's bite inhibition.

You want to deny their nature because you want people to believe pits are different than other breeds? That they don't have the same instincts, needs, and drives as other dogs, or wolves?

THEY (media, public) wants to believe they are different too... monsters reincarnated.
Trying to protect them by denying what they are... is a lie.

Pits can bite. Just like any dog. Probably more stable, less likely perhaps, but capable.

If you chose not to do bite sports... don't. But do you play tug with your dog? Do you know some people think THAT makes dogs aggressive? Teaches them to assert themselves against their owners, blah, blah.

Dogs bite people every day. Are any of those dogs TAUGHT to bite people? Hardly.
Do scumbags teach their dogs to bite? Yes. Usually by not socializing them, threatening and working the dog in defense. Fear. Others are just unstable dogs that show natural fear aggression and that behavior is encouraged. I've seen people do it. Sometimes by 'nice' people not even meaning to. Fear aggression is not common in bullies because we have selected and trained against it.
Do you really think the scumbags out there are doing REAL protection work? They and their dogs would probably be safer if they were. Maybe they would learn something. Trained dogs will probably never bite out of fear... excitement... being startled... or any common reasons people excuse bites.
Good protection dogs are of a very stable temperament, and trained to handle stressful situations, be confident, and be under complete control. They are also taught not to decide when to bite, with the exception of an absolute direct threat. Most pets would crack and bite under a fraction of the stimulus these dogs are confident and calm around.
If you believe not training dogs to bite, means they wont... you would be wrong.
Aggression is not really a part of good protection work. Aggression is a state of mind, and it is generally seen in dogs that have no self control, who's owners also have no control. These dogs are working in drive. Prey drive, play drive, etc.
If you spent any time around dogs that bite... as a trainer, behaviorist, vet, etc. and have ever had dogs (on multiple occasions) attempt (and MEAN it) to bite you... you would see a completely different animal. Its a state of mind.
If you then saw these dogs work, police, protection, whatever... or better yet, been on the receiving end of it... you would see a different animal.

Using your rationale, you may suggest that martial arts teaches aggression. It teaches someone (children too) how to hurt people. Maybe even lethal techniques. But what does it really teach? Respect, control, self confidence, to handle, focus and control abilities you already possess. How often do you hear about assaults and homicides by any of the millions of people who are capable of it?
I have trained in martial arts. My favorite part is sparing. I am good at it. Am I an aggressive person who shouldn't be trusted around people because of what I know? Maybe if you want to hurt me. But if it came down to it... I will spend my life protecting my dogs from people... not my dogs protecting me. Any bite work I ever train will be about giving my dogs the experience, learning, balance and self confidence I got from my own participation from the human (acceptable) version, karate.

I urge you (anyone) to learn more. Or don't. The professionals who fight bsl in the legal system, and are respected, understand dogs of all breeds are animals, and they act and react as such. They need appropriate training and control. ALL dogs. I don't know any of them who think sport or protection bite-work has any relationship to the real issues.

"Pedigree indicates what the animal should be;
Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be;
But, Performance indicates what the animal actually is."
- author unknown

I used to be totally against bite sports & protection training for pit bulls also. After watching these videos & seeing for myself the training & self control these dogs have I am coming around a bit. I am beginning to understand more about it. I've seen many pictures but they don't have the impact the videos do. I'm still not 100% for it but I am not 100% against it any more either. People are all for Diane Jessup & her Law Dogs program. Are these dogs going to be trained in protection? I would assume so. They aren't ALL going to be detection dogs are they?

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

Dont train the pit bull to bite a sleeve! It will make it attack a baby! Ahh! Surprised

There is no problem working a pit bull ON a sleeve.It is when the line is crossed that there is a problem.Protection training is not simply a sport, it isn't like training for Sch where the decoys wear suits and sleeves.These dogs cross bundaries.How do you train a sound pit bull to go for someone's throat? either you have an animal who is pushed into going against nature with forceful and pathetic training practices or you have an ill tempered animal and you are so ignorant you can't see it.Bite inhibition toward human beings is probably the most important trait of this breed.Using these dogs as possible man stoppers is insane.

I also know nothing about the sport, but after seeing Connor work the bite sleeve, he totally formed my oppinion on it. He was having a BLAST. He was not being vicious, he was playing TUG!

And that is absolutely fine, the dog is working a sleeve.You are confused between biting a "thing" and be rewarded for it with the meaning of protection training. If Connor , or any other pit bull, can't see the difference between a sleeve and a naked arm then the dog is not what a pit bull should be.Period.

Red wrote:How do you train a sound pit bull to go for someone's throat? either you have an animal who is pushed into going against nature with forceful and pathetic training practices or you have an ill tempered animal and you are so ignorant you can't see it.Bite inhibition toward human beings is probably the most important trait of this breed.Using these dogs as possible man stoppers is insane.

In the short 5 years I have been involved with bitesport, I have never seen a dog taught to bite anyone in the throat. I just wanted to make that point.

As for your 'forceful and pathetic' training methods, you obviously have absolutely NO IDEA what you are talking about. Not a clue. And I say that with complete confidence.

Have I seen some horrible thingsdone to dogs to 'make them aggressive'? Yes. That dog happened to be a Rottweiler, but what that trainer was doing was abuse. Abuse is not training.

Ill tempered? That's funny as well. Ask Chris how many of the Pit Bulls they work in bitework also have their TDI certification? Oh, wait, Connor has his as well, as will Riggs in September.

"Bite inhibition" has to do with the dogs not biting out of fear, redirection or unprovoked aggression. A confident dog does not do any of those things. Teaching a dog bitework makes it MORE sound (that the dog has the correct temperament is a given on this on). You are teaching the dog to understand what a threat is and what it is not.

Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.

And that is absolutely fine, the dog is working a sleeve.You are confused between biting a "thing" and be rewarded for it with the meaning of protection training. If Connor , or any other pit bull, can't see the difference between a sleeve and a naked arm then the dog is not what a pit bull should be.Period.

Connor knows the difference between a sleeve and an unprotected arm, but he will bite both. I wouldn't have it any other way.

I only hope that you enjoy your dogs as much as I enjoy mine.

Demo Dick

"My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban PERMANENTLY as soon as I take office...I intend to work with Congress on a national no carry law, 1 gun a month purchase limits, and bans on all semi-automatic guns."-Barack Obama"When in doubt, whip it out."-Nuge

If these dogs are unsound, how is that they are passing the TT & the CGC?

To be fair, both the CGC and the TT are pretty low level tests. It is certainly possible, in my opinion, to put what I consider an unsound dog through both of them successfully. Then again everyone has a different opinion of what "unsound" is, as evidenced by some of the above comments in this thread.

More important han the letters after the dog's name is how the dog actually performs under stress. If the dog continues to work, and I mean really WORK under stress, then that is a pretty good indicator of sound temperament.

For example, Connor wants to bite the decoy. He loves to bite the decoy. He lives for it. Now, if you put him in a situation where he is stressed by his environment, stressed by my asking him to perform obedience, and stressed by his own desire to bite the decoy he will still WORK though all of that. To me, that is a better indicator of temperament than the CGC, TT, etc.

But my dog is unsound, so what do I know anyway?

Demo Dick

"My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban PERMANENTLY as soon as I take office...I intend to work with Congress on a national no carry law, 1 gun a month purchase limits, and bans on all semi-automatic guns."-Barack Obama"When in doubt, whip it out."-Nuge

cheekymunkee wrote:If these dogs are unsound, how is that they are passing the TT & the CGC?

and the TDI and going to class rooms, and being demo dogs, and passing the OB portions of trials, and getting OB titles, and getting show ring titles, and, and, and, and, and, .....

I was told last week that Ruby was unsound because she is occasionally in the room while other dogs are doing bitework. For those of you who have met Ruby that is laughable at the least and straight out defamation at the worst.

Dogs don't magically become unsound when they are properly trained and handled.

Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.

Yes. All of the following are POSSIBLE scenarios where he may bite a person without a command:

1. If someone attacked me or Michelle.
2. If someone broke into one of our homes and he wasn't crated.
3. If he was attacked.

Outside of that I don't see it happening. I also don't have a problem with him biting in any of the above situations.

Demo Dick

"My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban PERMANENTLY as soon as I take office...I intend to work with Congress on a national no carry law, 1 gun a month purchase limits, and bans on all semi-automatic guns."-Barack Obama"When in doubt, whip it out."-Nuge

Ok, but if I sat around and poked him in the face for a while, he wouldnt turn around and eat my hand?

You could pester and annoy him for hours and he wouldn't show aggression. In fact, he would quickly turn it into a game and would end up pestering YOU when you decided to stop.

Demo Dick

"My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban PERMANENTLY as soon as I take office...I intend to work with Congress on a national no carry law, 1 gun a month purchase limits, and bans on all semi-automatic guns."-Barack Obama"When in doubt, whip it out."-Nuge

DemoDick wrote:You could pester and annoy him for hours and he wouldn't show aggression. In fact, he would quickly turn it into a game and would end up pestering YOU when you decided to stop.

Here is an example....

"Connor, get off the couch."
(Connor doesn't move)
*shove Connor off the couch*
Connor happily runs back and jumps on the couch so you will shove him off again
lather, rinse, repeat.

"Ruby get off the couch"
(Ruby gives you a dirty look, gets off the couch, gets in her chair, sighs pitifully and gives you dirty looks from across the room)

Both dogs have been pestered endlessly by my neices. They are good kids, but they are kids. When an adult pets Connor he is a goof and knocks into you and horses around. When the kids pet Connor he freezes until they are done.

Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.