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Opinions about exploitation

paulr - I forgot to thank you for stating your view - thanks.

Actually, barbaric was your word via Milan Kundera's analysis of Stravinsky. And I do find it barbaric - not that it is primitive or unsophisticated in quality, as you have certainly pointed out - it is not. I find it barbaric in it's marked lack of restraint.

And it sounds like we both agree that Witkin has crossed the ethical line in the sand. The only difference is that I am willing to judge him negatively, while you are refuse to do so.

As far as titillation - prehaps that was the wrong word. I was trying to infer the basal stimulation that the photos create - and in my mind a cheap, basal stimulation, hence my use of "titillation". Perhaps "sensationalism" is what I should have used - and I mean sensational in the negative way. I understand that people are interested in the macabre - seems to me that it is a tremendously large part of the intrigue of Witkin's work. We are unaccustomed to not only viewing the deceased, but we are as a society are abborant to taking the extra steps that Witkin does and therefore the photos are even more shocking and therefore more sensational.

"yeah, but so what, I still hate it and I still think it's wrong."

It's not that I "hate" it. I really don't think I do "hate". I just think it is ethically wrong that it was made - I think a LOT of really poor decisions were made by Witkin during the process of making these photos. And I'm also suspicious of his motives in making them. And that makes me not respect the work.

You say you are not outraged about the use of the cadavers - that's certainly obvious. And you know, I don't think that cadavers should never be used for anything. I do think that there are good uses from them - educational and scientific uses. I've been in a human anatomy class and seen a cadaver being disected in order to better the lives of the members of our society.

But there are two parts of that educational and scientific access that I suspect that Witkin did not adher to - consent by the individual and treating the remains with respect. I'm sure you'll say that artistic works should be included in there, but I don't think we should go there.

"Which is another way of saying that, whether I like the work or not, whether I'm offended by the work or not, I can't help but recognize that there is something of substance there."

We should not really be thinking about you, but about the victems of his works.

"Cruelty tends to bother me more than offending people's beliefs."

As well it should. But when do you decide to speak out against someone's cruelty instead of supporting it by claiming the abuse was worth it, as it was for artistic endeavour? And why do you not speak out about the cruelty here? Because the subjects are dead? Certainly some people are cruel to dead individuals, and we should speak out against it.

I'm waiting for the art history student looking for a thesis to decide that they will go and find the families of Witkin's subjects and record first-hand what kind of compensation they were give, whether permission was even given, and what they think of the photos, and whether they actually agreed to have these things done to there deceased relatives..

Opinions about exploitation

"Which is another way of saying that, whether I like the work or not, whether I'm offended by the work or not, I can't help but recognize that there is something of substance there."

Yeah, the substance is that of Witkin inflicting his sick nightmares on the rest of us. You can call that substance if you want. I suppose if someone looks hard and long enough they can find something less than utterly worthless and contemptible in even the most heinous, despicable, and inhuman or inhumane things. If you see substance, you are looking too hard for it.

Opinions about exploitation

"with the claims made by some of the "Moment of Death" photo that Capa made of a Spanish soldier was faked."

Which , incidentally, is almost certainly an incorrect claim."

More precisely it is a claim that has been proven false. It is in the same league of veracity as those who claim that Ansel Adams "Moonrise over Hernandez, New Mexico" is a composite of two negatives."

On the other hand, if we are going to talk about Cartier Bressons "famous" puddle shot where he got someone to jump over the puddle several times until he got "the" shot.

(verified by a trusted colleague who has viewed the series on the contact sheet)

Opinions about exploitation

On the Capa photograph, a good friend of mine who used to work at the Magnum archives saw Capa's contact sheet. There were multiple takes. This wasn't some big secret at magnum ... a coworker pulled her aside and showed it to her on her first day there. I haven't seen it with my own eyes, so I can't say I know for certain. But my friend isn't someone who would make up a story like that for any reason.

Opinions about exploitation

On the Capa photograph, a good friend of mine who used to work at the Magnum archives saw Capa's contact sheet. There were multiple takes.

Having seen those contact sheets with my eyes, your friend is lying. There are pictures in the sequence that precede the famous image -- but not multiple attempts at staging an image of the man getting shot. I'll trust my eyes over the word of a friend of a friend. That have been literally thouands of people who have worked at Magnum in their Paris and New York offices since Magnum was founded. if what your friend saw was indeed true then this story would have have been common knowledge decades ago. It only surfaced when a British "journalist" who wasn't there and didn't know Capa made the claim morethan 40 or more years after the fact. Even the writer who first put the claim into print has since retracted the story. But in the vast echo chamber of the internet the lie lives on and on and on...

But you know what? Maybe Elvis P., JFK, Jim Morrison, Jimmy Hoffa and Marilyn Monroe are still having a good old time up in Howard Hughes old penthouse in Las Vegas ...when they aren't busy playing pinocle with the boys from Alpha Centauri out at Area 51. That fantasy is just about as credible.

Opinions about exploitation

Good job Ellis.

Once again, it gets down to which version of the story one chooses to believe; the one that is credible or the one that arises as the "truth" aimed at marginalizing the credible story. Most of these "truths" originate out of vain jelousy, some sort of political agenda, or just sheer ignorance.

Opinions about exploitation

Well, I'm sure it wouldn't be too terribly hard to get to the bottom of it, since those contact sheets aren't a closely guarded secret. It's certainly possible that my friend was mistaken, but I know she isn't lying. Neither she nor I really care if that picture was staged or not.