1. Anniversary Rings. 30000 free exp/year, usable at any level.2. Empress Bands. 7000 free exp/week, usable at any level.3. Outpost warps, which revolutionized transportation and allows players to travel to any zone in the game within a couple minutes, maximum.4. Chocobo breeding, which revolutionized transportation by providing players with mounts that can be instantly summoned on the field.5. Enchanted items and new equipment which is much more powerful than anything which was available circa 2003.6. Increased exp gain from low-member parties.7. Increased drop rates on the Genkai (Limit Break) items.8. Completely removed the linear decrease of TP while healing.

...and that's *not nearly* a complete list.

But thanks for your feedback, Captain Unobservant.

Sorry but I have to chime in. For 5 years, SE's evolution of FFXI has been paltry at best, especially compared to more recent MMOs. After having played FFXI from beta up through almost all of CoP (dabbled a bit in the last 2 expansions) and currently playing endgame in WoW I think my credentials stand up well enough to put up a good argument.

I have alot of fond memories of FFXI, but I do agree that SE mismanaged FFXI at that crucial point when the shift in MMOs to be more accessible to players occured, and they still don't give a damn because they don't have to. There isn't a day that goes by that I dont wish SE would get their act together and reinvent FFXI for the broader market. I dont think the Wii comparison is accurate. Personally I think WoW takes a hell of alot more skill, talent, communication and coordination endgame than FFXI could ever hope to acheive - but thats primarily limitations of design (one made for a console, one designed for a PC) as well as vision. Its a common argument among FFXI players that WoW is dumbed down (I used to be one of them) but its horseshit, honestly.

Let's get down to the brass tacks. Each MMO, despite its origins and design, both have wonderful components that inspire and is responsible for their user history. FFXI was THE big MMO when it came out. While it wasn't much outside of EQ with an FF veneer, it brought the MMO to the console audience in a big way and actually brought storytelling to a devoid genre. FFXI took alot of time, dedication and really did a great job of painting a world of massive scope. It was the MMO for the hardcore, but that facade doesnt apply anymore.

When WoW came out, it took alot of the "core" expectations of an MMO and reinvented many aspects to create an MMO that had a huge appeal. It originally addressed a market that other MMOs didn't think of addressing - namely the gamer who didn't have time to spend 4 hours in Jeuno flagged for an XP PT. It was the instantly accessible MMORPG, and in a world where we're constantly being pressed for time in our daily lives, is it a wonder it flew off the shelves? Mind you, during this time we had a division of casuals playing WoW and harcore playing FFXI. WoW adapted to bring in many other gameplay options to increase its playerbase, FFXI did not. Instead they introduced more time sinks and overdeveloped mini-games that seldom strayed from their general expectation of players with huge time commitments.

To cater to the hardcore, WoW introduced 40 man raiding. To cater to those who desired PvP we had the advent of Battlegrounds. To make raiding more accessible, they reduced it to 25 man but sharpened the difficulty. To make PvP more personable, they created Arena. Blizzard might not be the best developer in the world but they listen to their audience. All I ever found in FFXI was more and more "additions" that most of the playerbase didn't care about. And those that they did, they made so inexorably inaccessible or unforgiving few had the patience to keep up the effort. I'm sorry but Ballista and Chocobo Raising and Racing were some of the most disappointing distractions I've ever seen. Salvage is a poor man's instance and don't get me started on some of the new "improvements" from WotG.

Players needed Square to address the issues the playerbase had wanted but never seemed to care about. Accessibility, customization and meaningful variety didn't seem to matter to them. The comment about the WoW community being the worst in the world stands far ahead of the FFXI community, because they actively have a voice in their game. I don't see any official forums for FFXI and their internal feedback system is so archaic that it was obviously designed to discourage commentary. Until just recently, all the FFXI community was player created and supported. I didnt' see anything resembling endorsement or even community support.

Thinking back over, I remember vividly SE had all of us jumping through hoops that many hoped would never have to be repeated. Don't know what I mean? Ask any FFXI player if they legitimately enjoyed doing Promivion when CoP launched or trying to complete their first genkai without super powered help back in the day. Probably not much positive feedback there. The excuse that we (and SE) didn't know better doesn't fly anymore. They copied most of the major problems that EQ had when it was king of the hill, and saw very little reason to improve things in a timely manner. SE doesn't want to compare their games, but they're missing the point of remaining competitive in the lucrative MMO market. It all boils down to money, and SE is milking it for all its worth. Check the development list, not many people left manning Vana'diel now is there? They've made their money in the hayday, but have obviously put their eggs back into the single player console RPG market and have left FFXI to exist on what little steam it has left until it starts becoming more of a profit liability than anything else.

I will say however that SE does a very good job of trying to weave a good tale with FFXI but miss the forest for the trees in letting their players enjoy it at their own pace. It is a brutally unforgiving experience to the newcomer, and all of these touted "improvements" are really just crums compared to what they should have been. In contrast, WoW is an actively evolving universe that sees more content in bi-monthly patches than every expansion FFXI has ever seen, which isn't much since FFXI has yet to release anything resembling a complete expansion at retail since launch. I freely admit that i'm a bitter, former FFXI player - but only because of how much love I had for SE and FFXI before I saw their complete unwillingness to innovate or incorporate timely and sufficient revisions. I would probably still be playing if I hadn't seen it done far better, far faster, and much more complete elsewhere.

SE honestly has no excuse and is just milking their remaining core audience because they can. The fact that people are going to such lengths to disprove the need to group in FFXI by manipulating very specific variables is a testament to the game designs futility. Here's hoping SE learns that the MMO market needs innovation, not half baked efforts.

The funny thing is, Final Fantasy XI is the most profitable game Square Enix has ever made. If only World of Warcraft shared a similar aesthetic style and feel that Final Fantasy XI has, I'd be all over it. Unfortunately, I don't like the character models in World of Warcraft, and Final Fantasy XI is still stuck in first generation MMORPG design, so my shallowness prevents me from playing either.

Thinking back over, I remember vividly SE had all of us jumping through hoops that many hoped would never have to be repeated. Don't know what I mean? Ask any FFXI player if they legitimately enjoyed doing Promivion when CoP launched or trying to complete their first genkai without super powered help back in the day. Probably not much positive feedback there. The excuse that we (and SE) didn't know better doesn't fly anymore.

So you're arguing that SE needs to learn and adapt, and then you list two examples of things SE *has* fixed, at players' request? Hmm...

I completed Promyvions after the "first" of the two dumbing-downs, and I thought that was a reasonable difficulty level. At its original release, my understanding was that you'd have to travel to the top as an alliance of 18, then break into parties of six to enter the six-man-capped NM battle.

But here's what it comes down to for me, Stephen:

Quote from: "Tenchi-no-Ryu"

SE honestly has no excuse and is just milking their remaining core audience because they can.

This is just a negative spin on what they've been saying for years. When I interviewed the staff at E3 2005, I asked about WoW and its success. They said quite directly that they do not compare themselves to WoW, nor do they try to model themselves after WoW. This entire rant-thread you've produced is essentially arguing that WoW has paved the way for *good* MMOs, and that everyone else ought to follow suit. FFXI is *the* anti-WoW, and frankly, I'm happy about it. I'm happy with it.

Yes, SE is milking the remaining core audience. It's a little too late to reinvent FFXI, and I think we all know it. There's still a strong PS2 userbase, so there's little they can do in terms of graphic improvement. Their next MMO (which I suspect will be some part of the FFXIII "Fabula Nova Crystalis" mega-series) may well come with the improvements and streamlining you desire.

I think WoW takes a hell of alot more skill, talent, communication and coordination endgame than FFXI could ever hope to acheive - but thats primarily limitations of design (one made for a console, one designed for a PC) as well as vision. Its a common argument among FFXI players that WoW is dumbed down (I used to be one of them) but its horseshit, honestly.

WoW is absolutely dumbed down and content keeps being dumbed down so even casuals can do it (whether or not that's a good choice is one's opinion). Bosses are nerfed even after they are balanced, attunements are lifted, epics are more plentiful and easier to obtain.

WoW endgame takes... skill? Hardly. My guild was 4/5 Hyjal and 5/9 Black Temple before I quit 3+ months ago and I must say it certainly does not take skill. As for talent, the only talent that is required is to not be retarded and be able to pay attention to directions. That's it. I will agree to two things though. One, WoW does take decent communication and coordination to down bosses some/most bosses. Two, there is some-slight-miniscule amount of skill to end game WoW and that's only if you are doing absolutely cutting edge raiding content with bosses being unbalanced, no kill movies to watch, no strategies from someone in a previous guild who writes out the entire encounter and every single ability on a website for you, generally undergeared, boss mods are not available to tell you when every little thing is going to occur, etc. Even that could be contested.

If you're saying that WoW takes a lot more skill, talent, communication, and coordination end game than FFXI, then killing FFXI bosses must simply require just being present and breathing to win.

Quote from: "Tenchi-no-Ryu"

The comment about the WoW community being the worst in the world stands far ahead of the FFXI community, because they actively have a voice in their game.

When I made that comment, I meant more in the lines of the WoW forums which, at any day, showcases new lows for humanity. I didn't look, but I'm sure when Heath Ledger died, 2 to 3 out of every 5 posts undoubtedly mocked his death asking things like, "Did he drop good lewtz?". Though I admit in game it's not that bad. Yes, they have a somewhat active voice in the game, but half the threads are whining about "nerf this" or "buff that" while constructive threads are few and far between (and usually, the threads that are intelligent are often ignored in the end by blizzard anyway).

As the above posters said, the mere notion that World of Warcraft is a more "challenging" or "difficult" game than Final Fantasy XI is simply preposterous. It's a button-masher MMORPG where everyone, their grandmother, and their grandmother's dog can attain maximum level, crafting, gear etc. in lightning speed. Anyone can "be the best" in World of Warcraft, and I know more than a handful of World of Warcraft players who agree w/ that sentiment (several of whom have returned to Final Fantasy XI as a result).

I also disagree w/ the "first-generation MMORPG design" assertion. If said design makes Final Fantasy XI an inferior product, then Dragon Quest VIII is inferior to Growlanser V: Gernations, and Final Fantasy Tactics and Shining Force III are inferior to La Pucelle, Disgaea, Phantom Brave, and all the rest of Nippon Ichi's mass-produced, uninspired "second-generation SRPGs."

Games need to be different. If they were all the same, there would be no competition in the industry and it would stagnate/collapse. That said, among MMORPGs, there is a little something for everyone. Final Fantasy XI is for the hardcore, serious gamer, and World of Warcraft is the Nintendo Wii of the MMORPG world, offering an easily accessible game to the masses. I don't own a Nintendo Wii, and likewise, I would never play World of Warcraft again.

God you sound like those kids that only listen to Hardcore Punk Rock for the sake of the style...not for the enjoyment of it all.

"FFXI is for the hardcore, serious gamer..."

Are you for real?

Keep playing that FFXI for the sake of being hardcore. Keep grinding those levels, Shigs.

Personally, I'll be having fun with the "masses". Edit: oh and if you mention that since I didnt get past level 60 in FFXI and I obviously dont know what the fuck I'm talking about remember this......If it seriously takes 60 levels to really enjoy a game it's not worth my time. I've enjoyed World of Warcraft since day one, level one.

The argument I have always made is that World of Warcraft is more tailored to "instant gratification." That is all.

Relic Weapons in Final Fantasy XI take, on average, about 2 years to obtain. Of course, that's an admittedly absurd amount of time, but when you see someone w/ a Relic Weapon, you think "wow, that's really awesome" and it motivates people to set goals and push themselves to better their characters. Hell, there is a particular boss in Final Fantasy XI that has existed for 2-3 years and has never been defeated on any server. People are /still/ trying to figure out his weakness, to this day. Again, a little absurd, but the fact that this boss exists and remains an unsolved mystery to the playerbase means that there's always something higher to shoot for.

Nothing in World of Warcraft requires that amount of dedication to the game. Crafting is a joke, anyone can max out a craft easily in a week's time. So if everyone has a max craft, it destroys the prestiege and uniqueness associated with that achievement. If you extrapolate this lax difficulty to virtually /everything/ in the game, including levels, equipment, etc. then there's no serious challenge to be found. Just instant gratification in the name of "fun."

If I am wrong about this, then enlighten me w/ a couple examples of the challenging content I'm missing out on, link me to a video, etc. But understand that I'm not arguing from the position of "Final Fantasy XI is more hardcore so it's better lol," I'm trying to acknowledge that people play games for different reasons and everyone has a different definition of what's "fun" to them.

As the above posters said, the mere notion that World of Warcraft is a more "challenging" or "difficult" game than Final Fantasy XI is simply preposterous. It's a button-masher MMORPG where everyone, their grandmother, and their grandmother's dog can attain maximum level, crafting, gear etc. in lightning speed. Anyone can "be the best" in World of Warcraft, and I know more than a handful of World of Warcraft players who agree w/ that sentiment (several of whom have returned to Final Fantasy XI as a result).

And FFXI isn't a button masher with less buttons? Sure you can macro yourself till your blue in the face, but your just splitting hairs at this point. Combat in FFXI remains primarily static with a battle system that's very slow-paced due to the methodical nature of the design. Personally, I miss having the ability to chain attacks in WoW like FFXI's renkei, but since that was deemed inefficient, most people don't even know how they work anymore. Either way, no matter how you might dress up a sheep, its still a sheep.

Also, your obviously misinformed about crafting. I think the pacing is well in hand with the leveling, and unlike synthesis, its actually accessible and useful. By opening up crafting as a staple, even in endgame, you have a much more robust economy - something that FFXI has had issues with since launch. I might also clarify that actually reaching 375 skill in many crafts is a challenge that requires hours of grinding and farming for specific patterns you can't just buy at a trainer. I agree its not the timesink that synthesis ever was, but you perpetuate your ignorance of a game you obviously have limited experience with by such blanket statements.

Also, you miss the forest for the trees with your comment on speed - anything compared to a tortoise is fast. Grinding is the centerpeice of FFXI, its 90-95% of your available content. Don't get me wrong, I still have fond memories of completing nation missions, expansion missions etc - but even then the ratio of time played for leveling vs other activities is remarkably disproportionate. Sure they've made strides to speed that up, but getting to 75 faster just means you get to do it all over again to keep interest.

Leveling in WoW is a means to an end for the main content. I'm not trying to say that FFXI has no other options that grinding, but the compelling content is few and far between. So yes, it is fast compared to FFXI, but it still requires a good chunk of time - but it isn't the mainstay of the game. Your obvious preference of FFXI is obvious, but I prefer a game with a better balance of content. Also your statement about "Anyone can be the best" in WoW is really pretty ignorant. Climbing up to the top of the Arena listing is a challenge. Learning new content that hasn't been "dumbed down" is always a struggle based on your support structure. Alot of the previous comments made about WoW being "zomg easy" are mainly from players who have the fortunate circumstance of being in endgame guilds who have probably already gone through the doldrums just to get the content on farm. It also depends heavily on what classes you play. I took a very small casual guild of 13 accounts to 80 accounts and went through the process of learning content that was new for everyone, and as a tank for most of it, so I have a very different perspective - but that's because my experience is different from most.

If you start from the ground up, I assure you its an entirely different scenario, and its also more rewarding. Anyway I digress.

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I also disagree w/ the "first-generation MMORPG design" assertion. If said design makes Final Fantasy XI an inferior product, then Dragon Quest VIII is inferior to Growlanser V: Gernations, and Final Fantasy Tactics and Shining Force III are inferior to La Pucelle, Disgaea, Phantom Brave, and all the rest of Nippon Ichi's mass-produced, uninspired "second-generation SRPGs."

Shiguma, you're comparing apples with oranges. FFXI is the complete example of first generation MMO design - its a complete rip of EQ, which was the first mainstream MMO. The market has expanded exponentially and isn't just limited to that mold. Look at games like Second Life, or EVE. I think you completely took my statement out of context. You're misconstruing alot of what I was trying to say. It wasn't inferior for its time, and even for a good time after its heyday. however, it has not aged well in this current generation of MMOs, but that's entirely my opinion and your entitled to disagree.

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Games need to be different. If they were all the same, there would be no competition in the industry and it would stagnate/collapse. That said, among MMORPGs, there is a little something for everyone. Final Fantasy XI is for the hardcore, serious gamer, and World of Warcraft is the Nintendo Wii of the MMORPG world, offering an easily accessible game to the masses. I don't own a Nintendo Wii, and likewise, I would never play World of Warcraft again.

You start off being magnanimous, then you just fall into the same argument without saying anything enlightening or even intelligent. What exactly is your definition of hardcore? Is it the ability to spend a major portion of your free time infront of a videogame? Is it the ability to persevere monotony for a grand goal? What exactly does "hardcore" mean anyway? I dont think it means anything to any demographic, except what it emphasizes for the individual - a special designation for an esoteric, and usually meaningless statistic.

Either way I find your comparison to the Wii still off the mark. Sure WoW is much more mainstream due to its design, but unlike the Wii, WoW its not a technically inferior product that relies on a gimmick and no real substance. Personally I would have liked to have had a solid debate with opinion substantiated by some facts but apparently this has degenerated faster than I had hoped. I'm really sorry you feel that way about WoW, because having played both and enjoy both for what they have/had to offer, I find WoW much more compelling as a game as well as a use of my free time.

So you're arguing that SE needs to learn and adapt, and then you list two examples of things SE *has* fixed, at players' request? Hmm...

I completed Promyvions after the "first" of the two dumbing-downs, and I thought that was a reasonable difficulty level. At its original release, my understanding was that you'd have to travel to the top as an alliance of 18, then break into parties of six to enter the six-man-capped NM battle.

And how long did it take them to do that Ramza? Months. My main issue with SE is their recalcitrance to embrace their own audience without kicking and screaming and taking so long to make corrections to mistakes that the entire point of it was moot when it came to realization.

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But here's what it comes down to for me, Stephen:

Quote from: "Tenchi-no-Ryu"

SE honestly has no excuse and is just milking their remaining core audience because they can.

This is just a negative spin on what they've been saying for years. When I interviewed the staff at E3 2005, I asked about WoW and its success. They said quite directly that they do not compare themselves to WoW, nor do they try to model themselves after WoW.

You miss my point of the statement Patrick. A developer of an MMO has a responsibility to an audience and to be marketable, you can't just hide your head in the sand - which is exactly what SE did. Considering that they went to great pains to tour Sony Online Entertainment during the development of FFXI because of EQs popularity and appeal at the time - their statement is quite hippocritical. When I spoke to the devs at SOE during development of EQ:A they were quite open about that.

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This entire rant-thread you've produced is essentially arguing that WoW has paved the way for *good* MMOs, and that everyone else ought to follow suit. FFXI is *the* anti-WoW, and frankly, I'm happy about it. I'm happy with it.

Honestly it wasn't intended to be a rant, but I was passionate because of how much SE had let me down with FFXI. I think you are assuming too much from my post. I was comparing aspects of WoW with aspects of FFXI. Nowhere in my thread did I proclaim that WoW paved the way for "good" MMOs, because despite the number of knockoffs to both titles, none have come close to either. WoW gave some great examples of how to create content delivery for an MMO, but its not a perfect animal. There are still many thing that I beleive FFXI does better (storytelling, size etc.)

If in any way i've insulted those of you who still hold FFXI near and dear to your heart, it wasn't my intention. I'd be a hippocrite if I said I didn't lament what FFXI could have been with more aggressive developer support.

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Yes, SE is milking the remaining core audience. It's a little too late to reinvent FFXI, and I think we all know it. There's still a strong PS2 userbase, so there's little they can do in terms of graphic improvement. Their next MMO (which I suspect will be some part of the FFXIII "Fabula Nova Crystalis" mega-series) may well come with the improvements and streamlining you desire.

The engine might be old, but it still stands up well after all these years. I've never had beef with FFXI's graphics, I still treasure all those Photo Journals I did back in the day. The main issues I have with FFXI is mechanics, which they've already shown they can change, they just have no incentive or seeming desire to do so - hence my disappointment.

WoW is absolutely dumbed down and content keeps being dumbed down so even casuals can do it (whether or not that's a good choice is one's opinion). Bosses are nerfed even after they are balanced, attunements are lifted, epics are more plentiful and easier to obtain.

WoW endgame takes... skill? Hardly. My guild was 4/5 Hyjal and 5/9 Black Temple before I quit 3+ months ago and I must say it certainly does not take skill. As for talent, the only talent that is required is to not be retarded and be able to pay attention to directions. That's it. I will agree to two things though. One, WoW does take decent communication and coordination to down bosses some/most bosses. Two, there is some-slight-miniscule amount of skill to end game WoW and that's only if you are doing absolutely cutting edge raiding content with bosses being unbalanced, no kill movies to watch, no strategies from someone in a previous guild who writes out the entire encounter and every single ability on a website for you, generally undergeared, boss mods are not available to tell you when every little thing is going to occur, etc. Even that could be contested.

Again we have the casuals vs. harcore argument. Obviously you were in an endgame guild, but where you a part of the revolving door membership that raid culture seems to promote, or were you actually a guild staple? Also what class did you play and what role? I'm not stating these things to argue with you, but i'd like to illustrate that perspective and experience completely color commentary.

It has been my experience that most players in WoW reach endgame by daisy chaining raid guilds until they get to the top, and in most instances they don't earn their gear - they come in when content has been learned, strats have already been mastered, the majority of the guild has experience and are pulled through content on a radio flyer. Easy to say content is easy when you have to do so little work to get things done. I'm sure your former guild leaders would disagree with you vehemently.

Also, certain classes (particularly dps classes) are much simpler to play and dont have the needed skill levels as classes like tanks and healers. I've played a prot warrior for most of my WoW career, and if you think thats easy in endgame, then you've either never played a tank and have no clue about what they do, or your a meatshield god, and if thats the case, then hats off to you.

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If you're saying that WoW takes a lot more skill, talent, communication, and coordination end game than FFXI, then killing FFXI bosses must simply require just being present and breathing to win.

Your statement has clarified to me that you have obviously never led a raid before. Many bosses in FFXI are extremely challenging to win, but they either center on a single gimmick or are exercises in extreme patience. Mobility isn't anywhere near as emphasized in FFXI HNMs and don't require quite as much explaining.

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Quote from: "Tenchi-no-Ryu"

The comment about the WoW community being the worst in the world stands far ahead of the FFXI community, because they actively have a voice in their game.

When I made that comment, I meant more in the lines of the WoW forums which, at any day, showcases new lows for humanity. I didn't look, but I'm sure when Heath Ledger died, 2 to 3 out of every 5 posts undoubtedly mocked his death asking things like, "Did he drop good lewtz?". Though I admit in game it's not that bad. Yes, they have a somewhat active voice in the game, but half the threads are whining about "nerf this" or "buff that" while constructive threads are few and far between (and usually, the threads that are intelligent are often ignored in the end by blizzard anyway).

Any collection of nerds on the interweb is going to degenerate more as you add more spawn to the pool. I saw plenty of lame shit on the Dreams in Vana'diel forums and Killing Ifrit forums back when I was active in FFXI. The asshat ratio is about the same, but aside from the whining there are many posters who take the time to clearly and eloquently illustrate flaws in the game, and suggestions on how to balance problems, and have a platform that Blizzard responds to. FFXI didn't, so there was always a sense of being disconnected from the developer, and I think thats really a key point in being a good MMO developer. If you create a game thats meant to be a social device, its really good business to pay attention to your playerbase. I never got the impression that SE really cared enough about their players to make changes in a timely or effective fashion.

Relic Weapons in Final Fantasy XI take, on average, about 2 years to obtain. Of course, that's an admittedly absurd amount of time, but when you see someone w/ a Relic Weapon, you think "wow, that's really awesome" and it motivates people to set goals and push themselves to better their characters....Nothing in World of Warcraft requires that amount of dedication to the game.

Ok, i'm sorry but if I have to dedicate 2 years of my life to getting a peice of virtual property, just chop my penis off, right now - because obviously it has nothing better to do. I admit that there's nothing in WoW that takes 2 years to get, though many of the Legendary weapons evoke the same feelings of mystique without the disdain of being pitied.

WoW is absolutely dumbed down and content keeps being dumbed down so even casuals can do it (whether or not that's a good choice is one's opinion). Bosses are nerfed even after they are balanced, attunements are lifted, epics are more plentiful and easier to obtain.

WoW endgame takes... skill? Hardly. My guild was 4/5 Hyjal and 5/9 Black Temple before I quit 3+ months ago and I must say it certainly does not take skill. As for talent, the only talent that is required is to not be retarded and be able to pay attention to directions. That's it. I will agree to two things though. One, WoW does take decent communication and coordination to down bosses some/most bosses. Two, there is some-slight-miniscule amount of skill to end game WoW and that's only if you are doing absolutely cutting edge raiding content with bosses being unbalanced, no kill movies to watch, no strategies from someone in a previous guild who writes out the entire encounter and every single ability on a website for you, generally undergeared, boss mods are not available to tell you when every little thing is going to occur, etc. Even that could be contested.

Again we have the casuals vs. harcore argument. Obviously you were in an endgame guild, but where you a part of the revolving door membership that raid culture seems to promote, or were you actually a guild staple? Also what class did you play and what role? I'm not stating these things to argue with you, but i'd like to illustrate that perspective and experience completely color commentary.

It has been my experience that most players in WoW reach endgame by daisy chaining raid guilds until they get to the top, and in most instances they don't earn their gear - they come in when content has been learned, strats have already been mastered, the majority of the guild has experience and are pulled through content on a radio flyer. Easy to say content is easy when you have to do so little work to get things done. I'm sure your former guild leaders would disagree with you vehemently.

Also, certain classes (particularly dps classes) are much simpler to play and dont have the needed skill levels as classes like tanks and healers. I've played a prot warrior for most of my WoW career, and if you think thats easy in endgame, then you've either never played a tank and have no clue about what they do, or your a meatshield god, and if thats the case, then hats off to you.

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If you're saying that WoW takes a lot more skill, talent, communication, and coordination end game than FFXI, then killing FFXI bosses must simply require just being present and breathing to win.

Your statement has clarified to me that you have obviously never led a raid before. Many bosses in FFXI are extremely challenging to win, but they either center on a single gimmick or are exercises in extreme patience. Mobility isn't anywhere near as emphasized in FFXI HNMs and don't require quite as much explaining.

Quote

Quote from: "Tenchi-no-Ryu"

The comment about the WoW community being the worst in the world stands far ahead of the FFXI community, because they actively have a voice in their game.

When I made that comment, I meant more in the lines of the WoW forums which, at any day, showcases new lows for humanity. I didn't look, but I'm sure when Heath Ledger died, 2 to 3 out of every 5 posts undoubtedly mocked his death asking things like, "Did he drop good lewtz?". Though I admit in game it's not that bad. Yes, they have a somewhat active voice in the game, but half the threads are whining about "nerf this" or "buff that" while constructive threads are few and far between (and usually, the threads that are intelligent are often ignored in the end by blizzard anyway).

Any collection of nerds on the interweb is going to degenerate more as you add more spawn to the pool. I saw plenty of lame shit on the Dreams in Vana'diel forums and Killing Ifrit forums back when I was active in FFXI. The asshat ratio is about the same, but aside from the whining there are many posters who take the time to clearly and eloquently illustrate flaws in the game, and suggestions on how to balance problems, and have a platform that Blizzard responds to. FFXI didn't, so there was always a sense of being disconnected from the developer, and I think thats really a key point in being a good MMO developer. If you create a game thats meant to be a social device, its really good business to pay attention to your playerbase. I never got the impression that SE really cared enough about their players to make changes in a timely or effective fashion.

I'm not turning it into a casual vs hardcore debate. I'm just saying that WoW undoubtedly gets dumbed down and made easier for folks who raid less. There's really no arguing that. Like I said, I'm not going into whether that's a good or bad thing.

I was definitely not a guild hopper. I was with my first guild all the way through the first parts of SSC and TK until we disbanded. I probably had around a 95% attendance and was there for every single "learning" of the encounters. Any absences were due to it already being mastered and wanting to give spots to others who needed loot. I loved that guild.

Second raid guild was slightly ahead of where my first guild was, but I only stayed for a bit because my new work schedule didn't allow me to come home till 8 and raids already had started.

My third and final guild was in the same spot my second guild was. Once again I was there for every wipe and every "learning" of the encounters until I quit. I again had high raid attendance and only missed raids when I was at home for fall break and didn't have my PC with me. I was even there for the 2 annoying weeks of learning Kael'thas (except for the 2 nights I was home for fall break). Our guild was not a revolving door at all. We had most of the same people with us for learning encounters. There isn't even a hint of truth to saying I didn't earn my gear since I was there for EVERYTHING. And to your other questions, yes I was a guild staple and I was generally the only holy priest taken on raids. I do agree though that there are people who don't earn their gear because they do daisy-chan through guilds. There are two people who come to mind in my guild who were like that and they barely got into any raids.

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I've played a prot warrior for most of my WoW career, and if you think thats easy in endgame, then you've either never played a tank

Do you want a cookie? Yes, warrior tanking (can't speak for paladins since we've never used one) is probably one of the harder things to do in WoW endgame. In general, that's only one -maybe two- raid spots for a prot warrior. Other than that, most other things aren't that hard. Most feral tanks I spoke to never found it that hard so I don't include them, but feel free to if you want.

The fact that I never lead a raid before is irrelevant. My guild leaders / raid leaders would say the same thing that I posted (they've even said it in vent before). Being a raid leader suddenly doesn't mean you need more WoW skill. You just have to know the strategies all around (know what classes to take, materials, class roles, etc) and be able to communicate what you need to do to everyone. It doesn't take any more "WoW skill" to be a raid leader. Yes being able to communicate effectively is a good personal skill, but it doesn't change the fact that WoW isn't a hard game. They've said it time and time again, "Guys, this isn't hard". When you have mods telling you everything that's happening during an encounter, full in-depth strategies telling you exactly what to do, and large hi-res boss kill movies, I just don't see it as skill. Don't get me wrong, it's fun. I enjoyed my time raiding on WoW.

(edit: After thinking it out a bit, I suppose there's some skill in learning how to raid effectively with your class. However, all it really takes is a little bit of extra thinking. By the time I was finished with karazhan, I knew the most imporant things as what spells to use, when to downrank, what to downrank, when to cancel my heals, etc. Even that I'm not sure if I would call skill since boss kill movies and class guides can tell you the same thing if you don't want to learn it for yourself)

As for FFXI, yes I never played it. I was just saying if you thought wow took copious amounts of skill compared to FFXI, then FFXI must need nothing. I don't know much about FFXI so I'm not commenting about it.

As for the forums, sure Blizzard reps respond to some forum posts, but often some issues are left alone. The posters you call, "there are many posters who take the time to clearly and eloquently illustrate flaws in the game, and suggestions on how to balance problems" as I said in my previous post, are few and far between the actual whinings for nerfs/buffs/impractical suggestions.

I laugh in the face of anyone that thinks Final Fantasy XI has some kind of great community. This is the same community that pioneered "JP ONRY" and similar catch phrases in regards to the ongoing racism within the game. This is the same community that abuses auto-translate phrases with things like "{I'm busy} {Jerkin} {meat} {inside} {trousers}" on a routine basis. I watched linkshells fall apart right and left because of backstabbing over end-game gear. Hell, I wasn't any kind of saint and played a part in some of the drama that occurred in past linkshells associated with RPGFan back when I was an active player. As Tenchi said, the ratio of good people to morons is the same... when you have 10 million subscribers on WoW and 500K on FFXI, of course there's more morons on WoW; that's because there's more people on WoW, period!

Based on your point of view Shiguma, it seems to me that the length of time it takes to get a piece of gear determines how "hardcore" a game is. In essence, if it took 3 years to get the best weapon in WoW, would you be playing WoW instead? Would that make WoW the better game? Sounds to me like artificial "difficulty"... more a test of your patience than a test of your gaming skill, since 2 years of Dynamis is nothing more than a large exercise in repetition.

Many bosses in FFXI are extremely challenging to win, but they either center on a single gimmick or are exercises in extreme patience. Mobility isn't anywhere near as emphasized in FFXI HNMs and don't require quite as much explaining.

"Mobility isn't anywhere near as emphasized in FFXI HNMs?" Obviously, some battles such as Fafnir/Nidhogg are simple matters of "stand on his feet and don't Spike Flail it," but not every HNM falls under that category. Kirin was a kited battle for *years* and still is. Affluent LSes w/ Kraken Club DRKs often TP burn him, but that's definitely far from the norm. And aside from Kirin, I'm 99% confident that you didn't experience any of the other HNMs in the game, so I don't see how you can generalize about the mobility involved in defeating them. Less than a week ago, I watched an entire linkshell wipe to Tiamat because of poor positioning, hate management etc. and my linkshell was able to claim/defeat it as a result.

I define "hardcore" in terms of a game's challenge. Some examples:

Hardcore: Ikaruga. It's not a mere shooter. It's more of an exercise in memorization/precision and almost artistic in its execution.

Not Hardcore: Gradius. Compared to other shooters on the market, Gradius is pretty easy. There are many ways to win and it's more accessible, hence, more popular.

Hardcore: Beatmania IIDX. The deepest music game on the market. Seven keys and a turntable, and extremely challenging charts. If you haven't seen it before, here's a little video.

Not Hardcore: Guitar Hero. Very shallow as a music game. There is no timing-based judgement system, you either "hit the note, or you don't." And if you think Bark at the Moon (Expert) is a hard song, again, click that video link I posted above.

Some people find extreme challenges (or what you might call monotonous exercises in patience) rewarding, while others prefer the "fun" that a game like World of Warcraft provides. Again, to each his own.

I won't bother commenting on the rest. I made this thread to show off some cool videos and try to dispel the outdated myth that soloing is an impossible and impractical endeavor in FFXI. All discussions on this note inevitably turn into the FFXI vs. WoW argument though, so whatever, play the game which you enjoy most. :P

Obviously, some battles such as Fafnir/Nidhogg are simple matters of "stand on his feet and don't Spike Flail it," but not every HNM falls under that category. Kirin was a kited battle for *years* and still is.

Kited fights were one of FFXI's big failures though. They were basically a big 'fuck you' to the melee dps, who had trouble getting a hit off on them even when they were riding the bosses ass do to latency.