Ganger

Had a thought about fixing/clarifying what happens to a models weapons if they are captured and not ransomed or traded.

RAW there is a slight grey area as to what happens to a captured model that is rescued's equipment. Personally I interpret it as a captured model who isn't traded/ransomed loses their equipment to the other mob in the post game of the battle they were captured whether they are rescued or not (this is harsh to Muties due to them not being able to trade or ransom and the relative cost of their gear vs any other mob however any captives taken by Muties will also automatically lose their gear).

However my proposal to clear up is to make the rescue mission during the post game of that battle. The rescue mission would take place after experience and serious injuries but before any income is rolled and would always be Gotcha or Convoy (Orks would use the same Oddmob list on the rescue table as Grots and Diggas) to represent the mob trying to rescue making a rescue attempt before the captors have returned to their base.

Any models that were taken out of action in the game where the model was captured would have to act as if they suffered from an Old Battle Wound with a failed result meaning they started the rescue mission with a flesh wound (e.g if they rolled a 1 before the rescue mission they start with a flesh wound already where as if they roll anything else they start as normal).

Scrap counters from the previous fight would be carried by the mobs as taken from the previous mission in addition to scrap for the rescue mission (to represent that the mobs still haven't been to their respective traders) for Gotcha D3 scrap counters would be added in the defenders camp, for convoy scrap would be treated as written. After the rescue mission if the captive has been rescued, the rescuing mob rolls for any scrap counter they have captured this mission (NOT scrap they were already carrying) using their Leaders Initiative, on a successful roll they have found the captives gear if none are successful or they didn't gain any scrap the gear goes to the captors.

Freeing a captive from a vehicle would be treated exactly the same as from the ground providing there is no crew onboard, if the vehicle had crew (excluding drivers) they would need to be removed/dealt with before allowing the captive to be freed, when shooting at a vehicle with a captive on board the captive would count asGubbinz and penetrating hits would be treated as such with a destroyed Gubbinz (for the captive) resulting in the captive being thrown from the vehicle and suffering a S3 hit (they're tied up so they don't get the on a 4+), once knocked from the vehicle they still need to be rescued by base contact in the normal way.

After the rescue income for both fights conditions scrap would be rolled however only one actual income (working the mines, talking to da komitee etc.) would be rolled and fighters who went out of action in either fight would be unable to generate.

To cover the Odd scenario where there has been a captive from both sides in the one scenario then in this case the mob with the lowest gang rating can choose whether they are attacking or defending. The rescuing mob must bring their captive in a vehicle in the rescue mission and also an additional scrap counter in a vehicle to represent their gear. As Muties wont have a vehicle to bring a captive in they would only ever be able to be the defender.

This should cover all situations except the ridiculous case of Muties being both mobs and both getting captives in the same fight, only solution I can think of for this would be to do We woz ere first with both mobs setting up and defending their own respective captive.

Ganger

Yeah in my experience the only time captives are ever ransomed is if someone has a captive and really wants a shiny new gubbinz but is one or two teef off so does a really cheap ransom, or the ransom is just set cheap for friendliness sake.

Muties having no option to trade/ransom is the real kicker for me with it, especially considering how much easier it is to succesfully rescue from Gotcha compared to One of our Ladz is missing

Hive Guilder

I don't really like the idea of having another game before the post-battle sequence and, as @Flamekebab points out, it may be awkward for those who game at a club or something and don't have the time.

If we wanted to radically simplify it, you could simply add a dice roll to resolve what happens. Something like this, though I've not put much thought into how likely these outcomes should be:

1. Shot trying to escape. Model dies. (Maybe captors get to keep his gear?)
2-3. Failed rescue. Captors can ransom or put him in their mine.
4. Rescued - at a cost. Model is rescued, but a random member of the rescuing mob suffers a serious injury.
5. Rescued. Basically, treat as full recovery (or, perhaps, he still loses his gear to the captors).
6. Rescued - with payback. Not only is he successfully rescued, but a random member of the capturing mob suffers a serious injury.

The trouble is that, if you do something like this, you almost might as well dispense with Captured and simply increase odds of Death/Full Recovery. That's why I'd consider a few changes, like captors keeping gear, just to make this result meaningfully different.

Ganger

I agree it is clunky adding it in to post battle, logic for that was that if the mobs have rolled for income then why would they have held on to the gear and kept it near the captive while visiting Mektown/working their mine.

Main reason I had for changing it out was the harshness to Muties to be honest, if you play that they automatically lose their gear (which I agree is how it is written) then captured is basically as good as dead half the time (considering the average amount of gear a Mutie will have is around 5-8 teef for either a gun and reload or a gun and HtH/grenade/Backup) unless you only arm your Muties with one gun and no gear and keep a hoard of teef just in case, then if a mob captures a Seeker or Keeper armed with a Jezail early on it can literally break a campaign (10 teef (20 teef turnaraound) is HUGE especially early on) add that to the fact they are the only mob who cant climb the walls of the fort so unless an Ork player has two gates to his fort you are likely taking casualties performing a rescue they really do get done a lot worse than other mobs for a captured result.

That all being said I'm not against Captured at all, its annoying at times but I'd be less inclined to remove it/diminish its chance than I would be to an alternate way or alteration of how it currently works
A simpler way for the above proposal (which would fix the clunkiness issue and not be that hard to fluffsplain away) would be

-All mobs get a single rescue attempt where they can regain the equipment as described above this must be done as the very next battle for both mobs, if it is not then the gear is automatically lost to the capturing mob (note. general sportsmanship and non dickishness would require captors not to refuse and fight another mob to gain the gear)
-Orks cannot use captives to generate income in the post game of the battle that they are captured
-When Orks take a captive use the Digga/Grot column in outlaw rescue table for first rescue attempt
-After the first rescue attempt the Orks may generate income using the captive and any further rescue attempts are made using One of our Ladz is Missing
-Muties can only make one rescue attempt against any mob (honestly I feel this is meant to be indicated on that table since it is written/heavily indicated in the Mutie rules but they just forgot to put a star next to Orks on the Mutie as Captive row)

Hive Guilder

I'm not familiar with the Mutie/Captured rules off the top of my head but, if they're the main problem - and I agree it does sound like a problem - then perhaps the solution is simply to overhaul what happens to captured Muties, rather than changing the whole captured mechanic.

Ganger

So the extra little bits that screw Muties with a captured result
-they cant trade or ransom ever
-cant climb the fort walls
-cant ram the fort gate so if you do lose a Jezail/Fusil guy (or never had one) you are going to find it harder to get in unless you have krak grenades additionally assaulting the fort is literally the polar opposite of how most people would be trying to run a Mutie mob (hit and run raiders)
-when they take a captive it is always Gotcha so their version of "safe in the fort" is 33% chance of set up in the best place to be shot at on the first turn while defending a captive that is literally sitting in the middle of the board

Know that that probably sounds like a massive Muties have it hard whine but it is literally the difference between an Ork and Mutie captive scenario, reason Id go for the whole overhaul over just Muties is to maintain/restore balance, Muties get done hard atm but if you just prop them up then Diggas are the ones who get screwed (Grots are cheap so they don't really matter and realistically they rarely attempt rescues anyway)

Gang Hero

Mind you, a single "patch in" extra for just muties would do exactly that - just patch in, akin to the Green Pitz article - whereas a full reworking of rescues for everyone, replacing a section of two rulebooks, may be a harder 'sell.' As for Gotcha! as the only scenario available, for the single rescue attempt against Muties, do note that terrain can be a factor - perhaps just an explicit note that after terrain is placed, and after muties are placed, one mutie tent per mutie on the table can additionally be placed - which allows the creation of a miniature, not particularly durable but blocking line of sight, 'fortress' of sorts, or else the ability to hide scattered muties inside tents, buying them a turn before being shot or run down.

As for Muties rescuing, I do note that they DON'T generally suffer from having to raid a fort, even against Orks. The chart says that attempts to rescue captured muties are always against Convoy or Gotcha. So less worry about climbing walls or breaching gates. The lost mutie and lost gear cost hurts badly, true, but so does any injury for the muties [even if using da green pitz].

Ganger

@Aulenback chart for rescuing against Orks is always One of our Ladz/Buggies is missing for all mobs.

Its odd (to me) that rescuing from all the Oddmobs is done in scenarios where it is as if they are still on their way back to their respective base (Convoy and Gotcha) but for Orks it is as if they are already there especially since Orks are the only mob who get the additional income bonus with captives.

Gang Hero

It is only One of our Ladz for Ork, Digga, and little Grot captives [and one of our Buggies for vehicle captives]. Muties, in essence, on page 79 of Digganob, are the one exception where it is NOT a One of Our Ladz scenario to rescue from Ork captors.

And against Mutie captors, everyone runs Gotcha, but only has one shot at rescue. True in both the original hard copy here on my table, and in the pdf from the old Specialist Games site [and here in the yaktribe vault].

Edit: Unless you have been House Ruling it otherwise locally, or perhaps changing that rule for a community revision that I'm not familiar with? I'm using the rulebook as published, still, not a community edition or anything.

Ganger

@Aulenback I stand corrected and feel an utter twit, haven't been houseruling just looked quickly at that table and then had the wrong thing stuck in my head so @Ben_S (and any others reading) ignore my previous statement

So the extra little bits that screw Muties with a captured result
...
-cant ram the fort gate so if you do lose a Jezail/Fusil guy (or never had one) you are going to find it harder to get in unless you have krak grenades additionally assaulting the fort is literally the polar opposite of how most people would be trying to run a Mutie mob (hit and run raiders)
...
Know that that probably sounds like a massive Muties have it hard whine but it is literally the difference between an Ork and Mutie captive scenario)

Gang Hero

Not an utter twit, just hurried. I would take this as the good news it is - I noticed when I started looking through to figure whether it would make sense to give Muties extra access to krak for rescues, and hit the "oddmobs in campaigns" section, and the layout difference in the column caught the attention of my peripheral vision.

But for the muties being caught out - the setup for rescuing FROM muties really does lend itself to the outnumbered and badly placed Muties [remember the Gotcha! setup] have a fair likelihood of permanent injury or loss, since it REALLY does not favour their strengths [and even if they bottle as soon as can, that is a big chunk of teef making an injury roll], so the "add an extra tent worth of terrain per mutie" might give them a running chance of getting out of dodge [if used to shelter badly-located muties] or even guarding the captive [by building a "poor mutant's fort" of sorts around the captive, making it harder to reach].

Ganger

Agreed, realistically for Gotcha it should allow the defender to place terrain how they want before setup (why would muties be camping in an open area of desert and not in a guarded rocky outcrop???). Given that theres still a 33% chance the attacker gets to place a model it would likely not be that abusable anyway (unless you make an 18"ring around the centre but then you are effectively trapping yourself)