Trife, there were MVP chants for Jose. Jose was a top 10 PG at least. Now he's lost it, but I remember when we though Calderon was going to carry our franchise. He was one of the best passers, and has one of the best assist-to-turnover ratios in the league. Which lead to his ridiculous contract which was not consider so outrageous at the time.

Tim, you've made 3 gem posts in this thread. They are so accurate about Bargnani that I think it's worth a sticky. I'm serious. I think I'll cut and paste them and frame them in my office. You've summed up what I've been thinking about Bargnani for the past 4 years. Thank you.

Alright, every team in every sport should either be moving up or moving down. BC signed a number of vet players to try to compensate for Bosh's loss. It's clear that Colangelo wants to be moving up. If you trade your team's only offensive threat, you are moving down. Is that what you want?

The current numbers suggest, much like Bosh last season, that the only good and positive thing about this ball club right now is Bargnani. His ORTG-DRTG is +10, meaning the Raptors are winning when he's on the floor. Raptors getting significant time right now who have a negative in the aforementioned category: Kleiza, Calderon, Jack, Barbosa. In other words, the players getting the most time on the perimeter are hurting the team by their lack of production. Weems is about even after last night, and DeRozan is +13. Raptors getting significant playing time who have negative win shares: Jack, Calderon, Barbosa.
This team needs to finally do something about the disastrous wing players and point guards. Jose Calderon has fallen off a cliff. He's gone from top 10, to average, to now barely good enough to justify being in the league.

What Colangelo wants to do and what he needs to do might not be the same thing. And Bargnani is certainly the Raptors best offensive player, at the moment, is that a reason to ignore the fact that he's probably never going to be able to be able to start on a contender because of his fatal flaws?

And while the Raptors offense will obviously suffer with him gone, the defense will improve. I mean, one of the reasons they have to score so much right now is because they let the other team score so much.

The team will probably not win 30 games this season. Trading Bargnani for a more well rounded player certainly isn't going to affect the win total much right now, but it will in the future.

And I really wouldn't say that Bargnani is the only good and positive thing for the Raptors, right now. He and DeRozan's advanced stats are pretty similar, but DeRozan isn't a liability in certain areas like Bargnani is.

Trife, there were MVP chants for Jose. Jose was a top 10 PG at least. Now he's lost it, but I remember when we though Calderon was going to carry our franchise. He was one of the best passers, and has one of the best assist-to-turnover ratios in the league. Which lead to his ridiculous contract which was not consider so outrageous at the time.

and ? there were MVP chants for Bosh too and ? All that speaks too is the dumbness on the local fans here...anybody that thought Calderon was carrying a franchise honestly doesnt need to be following basketball...and again for the millionth time ast-to ratio is meaningless dude....All the top ball handlers in the L turn the ball over..OK Steve Nash won mvps leading the league in TOs it means nothing....

and ? there were MVP chants for Bosh too and ? All that speaks too is the dumbness on the local fans here...anybody that thought Calderon was carrying a franchise honestly doesnt need to be following basketball...and again for the millionth time ast-to ratio is meaningless dude....All the top ball handlers in the L turn the ball over..OK Steve Nash won mvps leading the league in TOs it means nothing....

Everything in your opinion means nothing. How are turnovers meaningless? In last nights game alone one turnover played a huge part. PGs who don't turn the ball over are considered good, especially if the do so playing big minutes like Calderon did. And I didn't say he was MVP caliber, I said we chanted it meaning he was good. And Bosh is a top 10 PF.

Everything in your opinion means nothing. How are turnovers meaningless? In last nights game alone one turnover played a huge part. PGs who don't turn the ball over are considered good, especially if the do so playing big minutes like Calderon did. And I didn't say he was MVP caliber, I said we chanted it meaning he was good. And Bosh is a top 10 PF.

One turnover means nothing...To/ast ratio means nothing if u dont get that i cant help you man...all the leading PG's turn the ball over,if you play 35-40 mins your going to turn the ball over in this league as a ball handler....its not how you gage a starting PG's success or productivity...its like using stats per 48...to gage a backup players production,its worthless.

Calderon didnt turn the ball over but he did NOTHING offensively which is not what you need from your PG either......You see what Deron did ? CP3 ? Rondo ? Those are top 10 elite PGs who control a game sometimes even without scoring.....i can see a difference between what they bring and what Calderon doesnt....So again PGs who limit turnovers are good but TOs are going to happen as long as you bring other things to the table it doesnt matter that much as long as the TOs are limited...in Jose's case not alot else is brought to the table.....

Werd Tim sometimes says what im trying to say but without being long winded about it lol...and to piggyback on his last comment about blaming players in the NBA in losses its alot easier than other sports because altho basketball is a team game,wins and losses in the NBA happen on the backs of individual players alot more than Football or other team games....

One individual player in basketball can dominate a game and have more of an effect on a win or loss quite a bit more...which is way you read in the NBA alot more about championships and winning seasons attributed to individual players success...

In football a QB doesnt play defense,in baseball you need hitting and pitching but in basketball with alot less players having more impact on both ends its a fair argument to relate players performance much more directly on the games outcome...

So where are the freeze frames of 'Drea denying Cousins twice? How come we aren't looking at how he was forcing Cousins into taking a couple bad shots in the post, or using shot fakes to get him into foul trouble? What happened to Cousins' borderline pathetic defense on Bargnani out on the perimeter (so terrible they had to bring in Dalembert and let Cousin's take a breather ie. guard Reggie)? Is it because, ultimately, the Raps lost? (...because Casspi got ridiculously hot)

Was he terrible on these two plays? Oh God yes, these breakdowns on the defensive end are what make him so frustrating and actually make me dislike him overall as a player. Does he deserve a one-sided attack that doesn't take into consideration all the good things he did in the game - especially after a decent performance on the defensive end? I don't think so. This would have been so much more poignant after any number of games last year when he actually deserved heavy criticism - after the Monday night though it just seems petty.

Those freeze frames dont exiost because Boogie is a rookie and Andrea is in his 5th season in the league he should be taking advantage of him NOT the other way around...

Nobody cares about fruity stats assist pct.....clearly you just laid out why you cannot prove he was top 10 if you need to use obscure stats nobody uses or cares about...

DEAD

Trife,

seriously man, what's wrong with you? forget the fact that you just don't understand how to engage people in conversations, I haven't seen one single person come to your defense or agree with anything.

1. compare Bargs to someone else in the league.. what's the comparable talent level? (someone already asked)
2. turnovers don't matter? hey genius, a turnover is the same as giving up a rebound to the other team, it's an extra possession. just because you pick and choose the stats you like doesn't make you right.
3. you're laughing at Win Shares and Offensive Rating? Seriously?? dude, wake up - we actually have advanced stats with formulas that you can look at and understand - please, explain why those stats are dumb and not relevant? I'm interested.

Bargnani On a Contender

And Bargnani is certainly the Raptors best offensive player, at the moment, is that a reason to ignore the fact that he's probably never going to be able to be able to start on a contender because of his fatal flaws? [Tim W.]

I'll have to disagree with you on that. If Orlando had Bargs (and paired him with Dwight), that team would have a dynamite Front Court. And it might be enough to take them to the Championship round.
.

Those images are a big deal cuz those stills are a microcosm for some of the biggest issues on this team and with this player...
I cant imagine any of the top players in this league being ok with that..letting a rookie disrespect you throw you out fo the way and embarrass you like that...Could imagine a rookie doing that to Kobe or Pierce even a washed up Shaq wouldnt allow that to stand.....Its pretty damn embarrasing....and everyone around the league sees things like that,this is how you get a neg rep of being soft and it allows guys to take liberties with you and do what Cousins did cuz they see you wont do nothing about it,you wont stand ur ground...big big issue with this team going forward....

I was watching the Lakers and Kings game last night and i was thinking what if a rookie got over on Kobe like that i guarantee you Bauer woulda dropped 5 straight J's on him in ISO and got in his ear and talked the shit outta him and told him never to try that again.....

seriously man, what's wrong with you? forget the fact that you just don't understand how to engage people in conversations, I haven't seen one single person come to your defense or agree with anything.

1. compare Bargs to someone else in the league.. what's the comparable talent level? (someone already asked)
2. turnovers don't matter? hey genius, a turnover is the same as giving up a rebound to the other team, it's an extra possession. just because you pick and choose the stats you like doesn't make you right.
3. you're laughing at Win Shares and Offensive Rating? Seriously?? dude, wake up - we actually have advanced stats with formulas that you can look at and understand - please, explain why those stats are dumb and not relevant? I'm interested.

Enjoy freaking out at your TV 78 more times this season.

\

I dont care who agrees or co signs me...esp not calderon and bargnani fans...they defend non sense WITH non sense...
Those stats dont mean shit sorry...neither does PER they are made up stats to assign to players when you cant quantify how bad a plyer is (like how you see people associate ast/to ratio as a tool to praise Calderon)
PER and per 48 min are irrelevant stats that nerds online prop up to mean average players are great...facts are the guy has regressed from average to barely in the league,nobody wants him and his contract is a now a punchline...now made up formulas can save him from those truths....

I can name guys with Bargnani's skill set and none of them had any lasting impact in the league and none of them were winners....
the 7 foot euro perimeter big man who is afraid to play inside is a trend that started about 7 years ago and fortunately Andrea is like the Obie won kanobi of this movement meaning its about dead....

I dont freak out at all....my basketball viewing doesnt end with the team in this city IF anything i laugh when i watch these guys stink it up and then get praised on this board....Even with Bosh gone the excuses and pleas are in full effect in raptorland...

One turnover means nothing...To/ast ratio means nothing if u dont get that i cant help you man...all the leading PG's turn the ball over,if you play 35-40 mins your going to turn the ball over in this league as a ball handler....its not how you gage a starting PG's success or productivity...its like using stats per 48...to gage a backup players production,its worthless.

Calderon didnt turn the ball over but he did NOTHING offensively which is not what you need from your PG either......You see what Deron did ? CP3 ? Rondo ? Those are top 10 elite PGs who control a game sometimes even without scoring.....i can see a difference between what they bring and what Calderon doesnt....So again PGs who limit turnovers are good but TOs are going to happen as long as you bring other things to the table it doesnt matter that much as long as the TOs are limited...in Jose's case not alot else is brought to the table.....

That was an example and it actually meant a lot. And I'm talking about a full season. And just to let you know, both DWill and CPaul have good assist/TO ratios. And Calderon doing nothing offensively? You know we are talking about his 07 year right? And why are you starting comparisons with CP3 and Deron, those guys are superstars. It's like comparing every single SF in the league to LeBron, and every center to Howard.

If what you want, is a Raptor squad with players like CP3, Kobe, LeBron, Howard etc.. Then I suggest you support Miami, Los Angeles or Orlando. Because we don't have those players, we have decent players. Your comparisons are pointless. And everything you have said in the passed day, had no grounds and some things you say are just absurd. Like TO don't mean anything, Bargnani's scoring means nothing, and you complain about the "dumbness" of the local people. C'mon man.

I dont care who agrees or co signs me...esp not calderon and bargnani fans...they defend non sense WITH non sense...
Those stats dont mean shit sorry...neither does PER they are made up stats to assign to players when you cant quantify how bad a plyer is (like how you see people associate ast/to ratio as a tool to praise Calderon)
PER and per 48 min are irrelevant stats that nerds online prop up to mean average players are great...facts are the guy has regressed from average to barely in the league,nobody wants him and his contract is a now a punchline...now made up formulas can save him from those truths....

I can name guys with Bargnani's skill set and none of them had any lasting impact in the league and none of them were winners....
the 7 foot euro perimeter big man who is afraid to play inside is a trend that started about 7 years ago and fortunately Andrea is like the Obie won kanobi of this movement meaning its about dead....

I dont freak out at all....my basketball viewing doesnt end with the team in this city IF anything i laugh when i watch these guys stink it up and then get praised on this board....Even with Bosh gone the excuses and pleas are in full effect in raptorland...

Okay, can you prove any, and I mean ANY of the points you have written on this thread. Just any please. And I'm a Bargnani fan, but I'm also a basketball fan and a vivid raptors fan.

That was an example and it actually meant a lot. And I'm talking about a full season. And just to let you know, both DWill and CPaul have good assist/TO ratios. And Calderon doing nothing offensively? You know we are talking about his 07 year right? And why are you starting comparisons with CP3 and Deron, those guys are superstars. It's like comparing every single SF in the league to LeBron, and every center to Howard.

If what you want, is a Raptor squad with players like CP3, Kobe, LeBron, Howard etc.. Then I suggest you support Miami, Los Angeles or Orlando. Because we don't have those players, we have decent players. Your comparisons are pointless. And everything you have said in the passed day, had no grounds and some things you say are just absurd. Like TO don't mean anything, Bargnani's scoring means nothing, and you complain about the "dumbness" of the local people. C'mon man.

Nah your just reading what you want to read..i said TO ratio is meaningless dude....Guards in this league turn the ball over i said they are not an issue if you contribute things to offset them...NAsh turns the ball over,Wade for consecutive years had 5 Tos a game...

Bargs scoring doesnt mean anything if he doesnt do other things..proof is has been on display THIS season......if he isnt going to rebound the 20 PPG will be in alot of blowout losses this year...and yes you obviously dont get that the bargnani brigade who doesnt understand basketball doesnt want to get that so yes thats the dumbness im talking about in this city with this team...

How many losing seasons will it take for yall to see thse guys are perennial losers and deserve this team (shrugs)

Nothing i have said is incorrect or absurd dude but i understand how Calderon and bargnani people get sensitive when you bash there heroes.....

Sidenote: I have always wondered if bargnani was african american and came up thru the NCAA if he would get all the praise and defending he does from raptor fans esp on this board.....i dont think he would...what does that say ?

I'm done arguing with you. It's going no where. You know what, here you go Bargnani sucks, he is the reason for all the losses Toronto have had in the past 5 years. Calderon is a failure of a PG who just doesn't get turnovers. And people from Toronto who support Bargnani are dumbasses. You win. Oh, and scoring is meaningless too! YOU ARE A TRUE WINNER TRIFE, YOU GO MAN!