World Families Forums - R-L21: DF41 another new subclade to watch - it is old!

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Well, we have our first continental DF41+ result: Bontron-Major, kit N67581, whose ancestor came from Montussaint in Franche Comte in eastern France, between Basel, Switzerland, and Dijon.

By Alan's calculations, that would be equal to 100 French results for DF41. One result could be explained away as migrating from The Isles, but not 100. This would seem to make France the origin of DF41. The same thing has happened with DF23, M222 and other subclades of L21.

I'd love if I was a blown in from Gaul to be honest, after all I like Bordeaux wine! Leaving aside that the closest written language to Gaulish of course is Archaic Irish (as written on Ogham stones)

Well, we need some more French DF41+ results, for sure. France is under tested, and the Isles are over represented in FTDNA's database. Just the same, I'm not ready to say DF41 originated on the Continent based on one test result.

Bontron-Major has a 62/67 match with Bismire, and Bismire lists an mdka from somewhere in England (specific place unknown to me).

He also has a 35/37 match with a man with the French-looking surname Beautrow, which, if you pronounce it, sounds like a variation or corruption of Bontron.

Anyway, it's interesting, and beats the heck out of negative results. We're in the early days of these new subclades; there's a lot of learning ahead.

Well, we have our first continental DF41+ result: Bontron-Major, kit N67581, whose ancestor came from Montussaint in Franche Comte in eastern France, between Basel, Switzerland, and Dijon.

By Alan's calculations, that would be equal to 100 French results for DF41. One result could be explained away as migrating from The Isles, but not 100. This would seem to make France the origin of DF41. The same thing has happened with DF23, M222 and other subclades of L21.

Its a concept called percentages. You have an enormous sample from one area and get 20 hits and have a tiny sample somewhere else and get one or two hits then you can hardly just simply look at totals. I have never claimed any subclades of L21 as definatley continental in origin.

Well, we have our first continental DF41+ result: Bontron-Major, kit N67581, whose ancestor came from Montussaint in Franche Comte in eastern France, between Basel, Switzerland, and Dijon.

By Alan's calculations, that would be equal to 100 French results for DF41. One result could be explained away as migrating from The Isles, but not 100. This would seem to make France the origin of DF41. The same thing has happened with DF23, M222 and other subclades of L21.

Its a concept called percentages. You have an enormous sample from one area and get 20 hits and have a tiny sample somewhere else and get one or two hits then you can hardly just simply look at totals. I have never claimed any subclades of L21 as definatley continental in origin.

It appears to me that what is oversampled is the eastern USA and what is undersampled is the rest of the world, including the UK. And, we are trying to draw conclusions about where SNPs originated based on where ancestors were born in the 1700s or, when we get lucky, the 1600s - hundreds of years after most of these SNPs were founded. This is particularly the case with Highlanders who were very late in adopting inherited surnames, and DF41 is a Highlander SNP if there ever was one. So, I am as interested in seeing more UK residents who are closer to their ancestors through songs, poems, legends and local known histories get tested as I am in the continental aspects.

While I agree that North America is probably over sampled (not that we don't want all the North Americans we can get), we do also have a fair number of actual citizens of Ireland and the UK in our database. Some of the guys in the R-DF41 and Subclades Project are native-born residents of Ireland or the UK, for example, and quite a few of the guys in the R-L21 Plus Project are. France, though, along with many other places, is seriously under tested. So, Alan is right, when we get a French result it has added significance merely by virtue of the relative scarcity of French y-dna test results.

I'm not saying that Bontron-Major's DF41+ result is the equal of 100 Isles DF41+ results, though. I really don't know what it means beyond the mere fact of it.

I tend to think of Highlanders more in cultural terms than topographic as the last of the Gaelic culture and language to be Anglicized. On a map, I envision this as a general area surrounding a diagonal from about Inverness on the northeast to about Galloway on the southwest more or less parallel to the Great Glen Rift. About two-thirds of positioned DF41 pins are in this area, and yes, the majority of those are currently in what is now Northern Ireland. Saint Columba, an Irish exile, and his missionaries profoundly influenced the culture of the portions of Scotland and the Hebrides within this general area, and the Irish-raised Donald and Constantine pretty much finished the Gaelicizing of the Picts. So, if you would prefer that DF41 be referred to as Irish rather than Highlander, I have no argument with that either until the French can position enough pins to support their claim to it.

I don't know. I wish DF41 were that specific, but we're starting to pick up a Welsh contingent (I may be one of them). It's true there was considerable Gaelic/Irish settlement in Wales, so it's possible that could account for it.

I would point out though that Galloway does have somewhat of a distinct history compared to say Argyll and areas in the Highland which were the original area of Gaelic encroacement into Scotland.

Galloway after all is named after the Gall-Ghaeil (Foreign Gaels eg. Gaelicised Vikings), it was seperated from the rest of Gaelic speaking Scotland in early stages by the Brythonic speaking Kingdom of Strathclyde, it's probable that the area was Brythonic speaking before the arrival of the Gall-Ghaeil (some have said the same for Isle of Man).

What we could be seeing with 1426c in Galloway region is local lineage that perhaps was originally Brythonic (Old Welsh) speaking and then switched to Old-Irish. Not a huge leap tbh. I should point out that the dialects spoken in Galloway were of the southern branch of "Scottish Gaelic" continuum and show alot of similarity to Irish.

Personally given spread and divergence we see among DF41 folk I think the best we can say is an Insular Celtic lineage that spread into both islands at an early stage. I recall some of the TMRCA calculations Mark did comparing myself and 1426c was on order of 2,000 years.

Of course what's also interesting is that M222 which seems older in Southern Scotland/Northern England also expanded into Ireland in much the same period. Coincidence perhaps? who knows.

I am not sure that one can definately pinpoint it as a Highlander SNP being that it is such a small cluster and has a significant lack of ancient Gaelic surnames. Time will tell as more DF41 results come in....

I think the folks analyzing the 1000 Genomes Project data (which is how DF41 was discovered) said it probably accounts for about 5% of L21. That's not all that small, and DF41 already includes several separate haplotype clusters; it isn't just one.

I haven't analyzed the spread of all these recently discovered DF13+ clades, but it strikes me that they all have similar distributions, that is, centered about the Irish Sea, which should apparently be renamed "Lake L21". It's definitely Mare Nostrum.

As for "ancient Gaelic surnames", DF41 is relatively new but already has Duffy, MacKenzie, MacMillan, McBirnie, and McCown, and I don't think we're done yet.

I think the folks analyzing the 1000 Genomes Project data (which is how DF41 was discovered) said it probably accounts for about 5% of L21. That's not all that small, and DF41 already includes several separate haplotype clusters; it isn't just one.

I haven't analyzed the spread of all these recently discovered DF13+ clades, but it strikes me that they all have similar distributions, that is, centered about the Irish Sea, which should apparently be renamed "Lake L21". It's definitely Mare Nostrum.

As for "ancient Gaelic surnames", DF41 is relatively new but already has Duffy, MacKenzie, MacMillan, McBirnie, and McCown, and I don't think we're done yet.

I left out the surname McCrere. Didn't mean to do that. Probably did it because it's in the L563+ category (a DF41+ SNP).

Regarding the French connection. I see his MDKS is listed as Montussaint France. If you stick this into Google maps you see that it's right beside Bordeaux. A major seaport in the traderoutes between Ireland/Britain and France (particulary wine) during the middle ages. That whole area had alot of migration coming in from Ireland in particular during the 16th-18th centuries. Even to this day there are several brands of wine from area that are known as "Wild geese wine" (B&G, Lynch etc.) and of course just up the road you have the town of Cognac and the most famous of the "Wine Geese" families -- Hennessy

The Montussaint Bontron-Major's ancestor came from is over on the other side of France from Bordeaux. It's in Franche-Comte, fairly close to Switzerland.

I won't deny there's a possibility that Bontron-Major could ultimately be the y descendant of an Isles expatriate, but I am very reluctant to believe that is the case. That was what so many people said about L21 on the Continent in the early days, before we had many continental results.

The Montussaint Bontron-Major's ancestor came from is over on the other side of France from Bordeaux. It's in Franche-Comte, fairly close to Switzerland.

I won't deny there's a possibility that Bontron-Major could ultimately be the y descendant of an Isles expatriate, but I am very reluctant to believe that is the case. That was what so many people said about L21 on the Continent in the early days, before we had many continental results.

Indeed well hopefully we can get some more of his matches to test. I do see (looking at Alex Williamson last 67marker tree) that he's down as been a member of Mikes 41-1411 cluster which of course is the same cluster that we see L563 show up in. Though he's on a earlier branch along with Bismire. Might be worth suggesting L563 even just to rule it out.

The Montussaint Bontron-Major's ancestor came from is over on the other side of France from Bordeaux. It's in Franche-Comte, fairly close to Switzerland.

I won't deny there's a possibility that Bontron-Major could ultimately be the y descendant of an Isles expatriate, but I am very reluctant to believe that is the case. That was what so many people said about L21 on the Continent in the early days, before we had many continental results.

258107 COMEAU appears fairly close (11 of 12), is French, and has a 1450 ancestor - but he is only tested to Y12 which appears to be the case for LOTS of the French Heritage kits. He is M269+ with no further tests.

Indeed well hopefully we can get some more of his matches to test. I do see (looking at Alex Williamson last 67marker tree) that he's down as been a member of Mikes 41-1411 cluster which of course is the same cluster that we see L563 show up in. Though he's on a earlier branch along with Bismire. Might be worth suggesting L563 even just to rule it out.

258107 COMEAU appears fairly close (11 of 12), is French, and has a 1450 ancestor - but he is only tested to Y12 which appears to be the case for LOTS of the French Heritage kits. He is M269+ with no further tests.