Welcome to the Piano World Piano ForumsOver 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Dear Teachers, I am confused on this issue. Please give me your educated thoughts. In the 1960's when I studied classical piano, both teachers had their Master's in Music Ed. IN REFERENCE TO ONLY CLASSICAL PIANO...they told me not to play as I felt but as they, the teacher, was teaching me. The reason they gave was because this is close to the intention of the classical composer... coming down through time traced back to the composer, from linage{ the student of the student of the student of Chopin himself concept}, the told me. I would so love your input as some younger classical piano players tell me they play the way they feel the classical piano composition. Thank you so much in advance. I am so confused about this. Sandy B... Member...

yes, it is really makes a difference when you play something as the composer intended. My teacher always asks me to do that, that it is always advisable to add in your own spark to the piece but always keep the composer in mind.

My take on this is that you should play the music the way you FEEL the music. If these teachers REALLY wanted to stay true to the composer's original intent, then NO composition by Bach, or any other Baroque composer, should ever be played on a modern piano, since the piano did not exist in its current state when these composer's were writing. Unless people are paying to hear you play the piece as written by the composer, then you have no obligation to anyone to do this. Even among the world's finest pianists you will hear tremendous differences in speed, interpretation and inflection in any given piece. Listen to the difference between the Rach 3 played by Kissin versus Abbey Simon.....how then, could there be a "right" or "wrong" interpretation of these pieces if there is such immense variation even among the world's finest?

The 'world's finest' are often too busy to look into any work in great depth unlike an amateur who could spend months or years on a work. I remember playing Rachmaninoff's recording of a grade 4 Grieg waltz to some pupils. As an interpretation it was appalling. He obviously had not looked at the sheet music for years. Totally unsubtle. But style and expression - pure Rachmaninoff. I know which I would choose.

Thank you so much for your input and I remember Horowitz in interwiew on TV once, he said, "I play what I feel." He added, "No one has corrected me yet." This really surprised me. Liberace your take on his clowning around with the classics? I loved him. Sandy B, Thank you again so much.

You play what you feel, but you still have to think about the composer and how that composer would have interpreted the piece. Even better get recordings of Chopin& Rachmaninoff etc playing so you get a clear view of the style.

Why does this only become an issue with classical composers? I have never once heard any of the Beatles complain that Joe Cocker had "butchered" "With a Little Help from my Friends". Quite the opposite, I think they are probably thrilled that other talented and creative people have used their foundational work to embellish and build on in order to lend their unique form of expression to it. For most deceased composers, you, or I, or your teachers, for that matter, have NO way of knowing what the composer REALLY intended. None of you have addressed my point about modern pianos and Baroque period music. Was Glenn Gould defiling Bach by playing his music on a modern Steinway? After all, we know for certain that Bach never intended for his music to be played on such an instrument, since it did not exist yet in his time!!!

Although majority of his was not for piano, I do believe Bach did live long enough to write some piano music. If you have the composer in mind, when thinking of beethoven then play it as written. Whenever someone came back from a concert in which his music was performed one of his first questions he asked was "how were the tempi?" According to account, although he used rubato a lot himself especially in his own works this was not something he gave to his students as freely. But to get to my opinion on the matter, I think that you should know how to play it exactly as the composer intended but you should perform it in any manner you want. The whole idea of 'you should know the rules before you break them'. James Booker performed wonderful chopin compositions with a latin rhythm and they were very well received. His black minute waltz in my opinion is just as good if not better than the original. If everyone played music as the composer intended then there would be even less variety as there is today. I respect the pianist who is able to improvise on various themes by beethoven and bach.

I do not think that composers expected their music to sound all the same from whoever performed it. Chopin wanted others to play his msuci ebcuase he liked the way they played it better then he did. When a composer composes, he desont' think in terms of half note, quarter note, whole note, he thinks a somewhat long note, then a shorter one, then a really long one, and finds the equivalents in music notation. Quite often, the greatest composers were also great improvisers, and would improvise then write down what they played. One does not improvise thinking of note values, dynamics, or even pitches. They hear a sound and try to match it on the piano. Having said that, I think the it is a pianist's obligation to try and understand what the composer was getting at with the notes, rhythms, dynamics and articulations chosen. It is always important to know what was added by an editor and what the composer actualyl put in. But I do think that many of these things are there only to help clarify the composer's intention. But is a pianist only plays what's written, or worse, plays what someone else tells them to do, then they are no better than a midi file, frankly. I agree with what Beethoven Fan said. Music should come from your heart and feelings, not someone else's.

Sandra, I'm going to hazzard a guess that most classically trained piano teachers make a sincere effort to follow the score, and to teach their students to do so as well.

Analogies sometimes help, so let me use one (it's not perfect): in art classes (painting, drawing, etc.) a teacher may ask students to render a painting in the style of Renoir. If a student were to come up with a painting a la Picasso, he'd be criticized, not because it was bad, but it didn't meet the expectation of being in the style of Renoir. If I were to play Mozart in the style of Bartok, it would be an utter failure. Not that it would be uninteresting or "bad" in the sense of wrong notes, etc. But it wouldn't be Mozart's music any more.

In essence, when we are playing classical music, sometimes called art music, we are trying to reproduce the style and substance of what the composer wrote and intended. Of course, this is really illusive, being this distant in time from many of them.

All that said doesn't mean there isn't room for personalization of the piece you are playing. But classical musicians attempt to do so within boundaries.

Now, let's talk about improvisation . . . . .

_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

Just a quick PS. If you read through Mozart's letters to his father, you'll come across many bitter complaints about how others were playing his music - mangling his music - incorrect tempos, phrasing, etc. My guess is that many composers had something definite in mind, and within the limits of our notation system (where's btb when we need him?) and oral/written traditions, we should at least know how each piece was intended to sound.

_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

Nobody plays the way the classical composers did any more. If someone played Grieg the way he did in his recordings, they would be laughed off the stage. Listening to the Rosenthal recordings of Chopin at Project Gutenberg will give you an idea of what Chopin probably sounded like, but people do not play that way now. Rachmaninov's recording of Chopin's Funeral March is the way Anton Rubinstein played it, not the way Chopin wrote it.

btw my teacher plays with the true art of the classical style, so do I and all her other students and my teacher's students are always among placed 1st and 2nd for competitions and do excellectly for practical exams. People may laugh but who cares, A person who laughs does not know how to appreciate the true classical art and it's sad that that's happening. And you are implying that you would rather play music the new way? with so much virtuosity but no musicality, that's what music often is now

If someone played Grieg the way he did in his recordings, they would be laughed off the stage.[/b]

I haven't heard Grieg's recordings (didn't know he made shellacs) but supposing them to be like other early recordings, then the fault is not so much Grieg's as it was the early recording equipment, which was so primitive, that it demanded players distort their normal playing in order to get a passable recording.

_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

btw my teacher plays with the true art of the classical style, so do I and all her other students and my teacher's students are always among placed 1st and 2nd for competitions and do excellectly for practical exams. People may laugh but who cares, A person who laughs does not know how to appreciate the true classical art and it's sad that that's happening.

I have news for you. Your teacher has no idea of the "true art of the classical style" and neither do the judges of those competitions. It died out years ago, and we can only barely get a glimpse of what it was.

There is nothing wrong with that. It is the style of our day. But it is not the style of the composers.

Quote:

And you are implying that you would rather play music the new way? with so much virtuosity but no musicality, that's what music often is now

What people think is musical changes from time to time. There was a huge change that came about 100 years ago, when recordings came into being. If you listen to the very first recordings, like Nikisch's recording of Beethoven's 5th symphony, you hear a performance which is designed to hold your attention every moment of it, even if that means sacrificing some of the coherency of the piece as a whole. That might even mean rewriting some of the music. Today, everyone assumes that you have heard the music before, because most of the time, you have. If you have not, the performer undoubtedly has. You can read through the posts here and see how rare it is for someone to pick up a sheet of music and play it without ever having heard anyone else play it. That affects interpretation, and we cannot go back.

"I have news for you. Your teacher has no idea of the "true art of the classical style" and neither do the judges of those competitions. It died out years ago, and we can only barely get a glimpse of what it was."

Seriously, you are the one who has no idea. My teacher is a world class famous piano teacher and pianists. Music schools every where are trying to give her jobs. She studied in Germany, London, U.S and Canada. You say she has no idea? I've never been so offended in my life.

You haven't even heard her play. There are many things that can be picked up when you hear Rachmaninoff's recording's etc. Oh really, all these are world class judges and teachers. Go learn more about what classical music is about.

I will challenge you: Play the Chopin Etude in A-flat, from the three new etudes. It is a fairly simple piece, so it should not take you more than a couple of days to learn it adequately, you do not have to memorize it or anything like that, or even play it all the way through. Post a recording. Then we will compare it with an old recording, and we will see how well you know the old classical style.

BDB: Have you heard Carl Reineke's recordings? He was born in 1824, but at the end of his life he was asked to make a piano roll, and he was close friends with the Schumanns. There is a website you might be intrested in that has many recordings that help illustrate the way musci used ot be played:

Reineke plays a Mozart Concerto (his recording is 3/4 down the page), and you'll note that the left hand falls behind the RH (just as Mozart said in his letters), or sometimes the LH anticipates the RH, and rarely do all the notes of a chord occur at once.

Originally posted by Amelialw: well you can get a glimpse of it, go read up music history, go listen to Rachmaninoff, Chopin's real recordings etc. [/b]

Um...Chopin died 8 years before the phonautograph was invented. An early Brahms recording exists, but it is extremely distorted.

One of my favorite early recordings is Granados playing his "Valses Poeticos." It's notable because of the extreme deviation from the score. Some sections are completely rewritten. Interestingly enough, the pieces were written in 1887 and recorded in 1913, suggesting that Granados himself did not view the original score as definitive. How should we play it now? Follow the original score? Follow how Granados played it? Or follow the composer's spirit and reinvent the work our own way?

Eigeldinger's book on Chopin's instructions to his students shows that he interpreted his scores somewhat freely, and he even approved editions of his scores that differed from each other.

And then there's this story:

When I was playing the Brahms Handel variations, I had to figure out how the trill was done - start on the upper note or on the main note?

My teacher told me that Brahms was certainly aware of the Baroque convention of starting trills on the upper note and that he obviously would have played it that way.

Then I met an elderly pianist who studied with a student of Clara Schumann. By word of mouth, I discovered the opposite - that Brahms himself began the trill on the main note, explaining that it brought out the 1-2-3 thematic skeleton that permeates the work.

I mention this because I believe this is a complex topic with no black and white answers.

I even take issue with the idea that Rachmaninoff's recordings are definitive. They are interesting to be sure, but why might we assume that the way he played the 2nd concerto on the recording (in the 20's or 30's if I remember correctly) was the same way (better or worse) that he played it at the premiere in 1901? Every great pianist I know of developed a great deal - early Ashkenazy sounds quite different than late Ashkenazy. Same for Perahia, Arrau, Schnabel, etc... Why then do we assume that those Rachmaninoff recordings are "definitive?" Doesn't it do a great disservice to Rachmaninoff himself to assume that he never developed as a pianist and mechanically reproduced the same exact interpretation every time he stepped out on stage?

_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

I would take your challenge but I already have so many pieces that I need to learn and practise and i'm already practising 4 and a half hrs almost everyday + I have a lots of studying to do although it's summer now.

Sandra, you posed in your original post, a question about playing close to the intention of the composer. My current teacher, N. Jane Tan, studied with MIECZYSLAW MUNZ (1900-1976). He along with Rubenstein were the whiz kids of the early part of the 20th century; both originally studied in Poland, then in Berlin.

"Munz was an important Polish pianist who briefly worked with Busoni, then went on to teach Emanuel Ax, Ann Schein and many others. He made only one commercial 78 (for Homocord in 1928). It may be found on two CDs: IPAM 1206 (â€śA Multitude of Pianistsâ€ť) and AMERICUS 20021022. The latter is especially noteworthy for its inclusion of two broadcast transcriptions in which Munz plays the Mozart D Minor Concerto and Rachmaninoffâ€™s Paganini Rhapsody."

"Entering the Krakow Conservatory at the age of nine, Munz worked under the tutelage of Jerzy Lalewicz (1877-1951), who had studied in St. Petersburg with Leschetizkyâ€™s assistant (and second wife) Annette Essipova. Three years later, Munz made his debut in his native city playing the Tchaikovsky Concerto No.1. His teenage years were spent mostly in Vienna (where Lalewicz held a post at the Vienna Academy), and included a brief period of military service. The next stop was Berlin, home of Ferruccio Busoni. Munz soon became part of the famed Busoni â€ścircleâ€ť and at the age of 20 he impressed the local audience by playing three concertos (the Liszt First, the Brahms First, and Franckâ€™s Symphonic Variations) in one evening with the Berlin Symphony Orchestra."

Munz and others studied with the Greats of the 19th century, and certainly knew their style(s). As Munz dedicated himself to teaching, after injuring his hand, one would think he might teach his students how the masters played, not some other style.

Living both in Berlin and Vienna, the two musical centers of Europe, now and then, one can only imagine what and who he heard in performance.

I suspect that through great teachers, like Munz, we have a pretty fair idea of the 19th century playing style(s). How this coincided with or departed from the composers' intentions is subject to debate, and a lot of research.

_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA