~ A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you … John 13:34

The modern Gutenberg

Respecting Chalcedon’s steering clear of the Catholic Synod until we actually hear what it is going to say, I want, nonetheless, to comment on one aspect of what is happening. I can recall the Second Vatican Council, and if you wanted any idea of what was occurring during it, you got a copy of the Catholic Herald or The Tablet, or even the Church Times and you’d get some news, and then, for those interested, you could read the documents when they were published. Now communication is instant, and the spectacle of Fr Rosica blocking twitter accounts which dissented from his ‘spin’ was both amusing and instructive: the former because it showed he had no idea how modern social media works; the second because it showed the impulse to clericalism still runs strong. If the fellow could ban people, he would – but in the modern world it isn’t so easy.

One thing striking me about all this is that fellows my age and a bit younger, simply fail to grasp the nature of the communications revolution that has hit us all. Back in Luther’s day the Church discovered it no longer had a monopoly over communications – Gutenberg’s invention made reading matter more easily available, and folk could print pamphlets and get their message out there whilst a conclave of Cardinals was taking its leisurely time in the old way of things. Likewise, those who are engaged in political intrigue can no longer do so under conditions of privacy which mean that it will only be years later that anyone will learn what they’ve been up to; things get out, and when they do, Twitter gives it a world-wide audience within moments. The idea of a press officer thinking he can stop this by blocking people is actually quite funny – but a bit sad, as it suggests the poor old chap hasn’t a clue – and as another poor old chap without much of a one, I sympathise – but then I’m not supposed to be running a media operation for a global church!

We can see how all of this explodes the ‘usual ways of doing things’ if we see what happened to Cardinal Kasper last year. He was quoted saying disobliging things about Africans by a reporter and denied doing so. Unfortunately for Kasper he’d been recorded. Still, the fellow didn’t apologise for telling lies – he’s a prince of the church and so criticised the journalist for recording him – and then wondered why many folk thought him a bit of a wide boy – that, of course, would have been on the basis of ample evidence. It’s clear that without the tape recorded Kasper would have simply kept on denying that he had said what he said (technically we call this lying, but perhaps for a Cardinal there is a Latin term which means he was telling a white lie with his fingers crossed?) – but he couldn’t. Equally, those who are trying to fix things can’t move without someone spotting them. Of course, some folk spot conspiracies where there are none, but that’s the price we pay for freedom – everyone has an opinion.

The Roman Catholic Church has always been big on authority and uneasy with it being questioned. For all his rambling ways, Pope Frank is no exception, he clearly doesn’t like being criticised, not least by his own side. Well, welcome to the modern world old chap, deference is dead, and all you’re going to get by trying to impose clericalism is criticism. Of course, he could always try sticking to what the Church has always taught – but that would upset Kasper and the Germans might take their money away. Quite what they are using their money for as the pews empty is another question.

My one piece of advice would be hand the thing over to the Africans, they believe in Jesus and in what the Church has always taught.

And then there is the further exposure of Rosica, lest we forget, who has proved to be a heavy-handed sort of dictator which is showing to the world the worst possible face of the hierarchy; as if we do not remember his threat for a lawsuit, not so long ago, against the simple blogger in Canada that merely wrote the truth about Rosica. His idea of slander is those who repeat that which he has done and said and making it public. I wonder if he will sue the other Cardinals for slander who now oppose him at the synod. 🙂

Therein lies one of the sneakiest and perverse probabilities that face us: divesting Rome of the law and placing it on the shoulders of Ecclessial Conferences or on the back of each bishop. This would effectively divide the Church as has the C of E wtih their connection with the American Episcopal church. What will the layman think that the Church teaches, then? I guess, whatever one wants to think. Don’t ask, don’t tell.

I would say I’m a moderate in the sense that I do not object to many of the changes that occurred during Vatican II, such as allowing the mass in native language and allowing more roles to the laity–Lay Eucharistic minister. My wife is Lutheran and I attend service with her which use to be forbidden prior to VII. We also attend Catholic Mass on Saturdays.

I know from reading comments the obvious support for Orthodoxy here and will not agree, but the consensus from a great many theologians is that VII ultimately did not change Church doctrine. However, as a VII moderate, I recognize with my Orthodox brethren that it’s a slippery slope, I stand with you in this accord. Many progressives in the Church want to change this “core” of the faith, this must be resisted.

Phadde2, I appreciate your comment and accept much of what you say, perhaps with a few caveats. I too, consider myself a moderate in that I accept most of the VII documents as long as they are read within a hermeneutic of continuity and not a hermeneutic of historical progressive development. Without getting into an in-depth discussion on some of the more difficult documents, let me say that there is still work to be done to conform some of what was in VII to this hermeneutic of continuity . . . or to be amended, interpreted or expunged. But I accept the council and have found a way to abide by the documents without abandoning the tradition of the Church.

Know, however, that the VII fathers did not want the Latin Mass to end . . . they thought that both the Latin and vernacular Masses would both be said in every parish. As far as lay Extraordinary Ministers you might like to read the following to perfect your understanding as to what the Church actually intends and see if you find many parishes following this teaching; it was the document that convinced both me and my wife to cease and desist from ’serving’ as extraordinary ministers: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_interdic_doc_15081997_en.html

And, yes indeed, the progressives have far exceeded the intent of the documents and the manner of saying the Novus Ordo Mass. What you see in your Mass and call the Novus Ordo is likely not what was intended. It is the Mass of Paul VI: and of all the things done to the Church, to date, this Mass, even when said the way it was intended, is probably the single most disastrous change which furthered this revolutionary movement that we are experiencing now and have faced for these past 50 years. Licit and valid though it is, it has shifted the focus on the priest and the people instead of the Crucified Christ. We have largely lost our center.

I would say that I would welcome all allies in this fight for our Faith who agree that modernism and progressivism need be resisted at all costs. So I’m proud to have you as a fellow soldier in the battle for the soul of the Church.

The printing press derailed the devilish Roman Religions attempt to keep humanity away from the word of god. So what it does now is block the peoples way to salvation by tossing female worship in the way.

If you think repeating lies is what Jesus is telling you, you need to come off whatever it is you are on and grow up. Most children have more sense than you have. You discredit the anti-Catholic case by your lies – you are worse than useless.

Ill let you tell my girlfriend she a liar. Shes from New Jersey. She doesn’t even want to talk about it. She doesn’t care. But I can maybe get her to personally email you an answer because it wont be allowed on this blog. Say, that gives me an idea. I can post her exact response to you idolaters from her on my journalistic site. Ill talk to her a little later and post it and then ill give you the link.

If you are telling me she was properly catechised, she must the one person in the world her age who was – grow up lad, repeating her misunderstandings simply makes you both look idiots. You take the word of one ex-Catholic against that of all the Catholics here? Really? You can’t be that stupid. Oh, yes, it seems you are.

Yeah, and she was such a good one she left – she’s just another know nothing ex Cathol with issues – you get your info from tainted sources – try reading books – you may not be any wiser, but you’ll be less ill-informed.

Oh, I am sure your girlfriend was quite the theological wonder and taught by the best of the best. If she is your age or younger, she was raised in a time of great turbulence after VII . . . great confusion and no approved catechism to adhere to. So take it from her . . . and if she is like most post VII Catholics who ‘learned’ their faith in such times, they took little of Catholicism home with them. I could probably find a dozen people at best in a parish of over 400 families that might be able to make a defense of their faith. Most are Catholic in Name Only, or Cultural Catholics. So odds are, you are taking advice from someone who knows as little about Catholicism as you do.

What years was she in catholic schools and how good of a student was she? Did she practice her faith and believe it? Did she even really know it? Send her over and let us ply her with questions concerning the faith and see if she has even a modicum of understanding.

Remember, she has to tell us who taught her that she should worship Mary – if you think any New York school post Vatican 2 taught Catholicism, you are even less well-informed than even I had imagined, and I think you are next to an idiot.

I take great pride in introducing her to calvary chapel in our area. Not that calvary chapel is anything, its that the pastor is saved. Her demonic kids liked it and went on their own without us. Her biggest achievement in life is that her kids have never seen the inside of a Roman Catholic Maryworship Temple. They have no idea what the church of Mary is. When I tell them little snipets of what the Marys believe, they are in awe. They cant believe people are so stupid.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaa

So, let’s get this straight, dumbo. Many well-read Catholics here tell you they don’t worship Mary. They ask you to show any verified Catholics source to back your claim – and you come up with an ex-Cathol who happens to be your g/f – could. not. make. this stuff. up. 🙂

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha. Expert. Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
I cant wait to publish her respondeo to you. It will be short and sweet because she doesn’t like dwelling on that painful part of her life. Ans shes not a very nice person on top of it all

She discarded the CC at the tender age of 18 when she graduated from catholic Hi School. She never went to a service again. Dropped it like a hot potato. I guess you figure shes going to hell because of it.

I’d ask her the question that Bishop Sheen always asks lapsed Catholics. He never asked why did you leave rather, “What was your sin?” In other words, what specific teaching was it that led her to leave? Ask her?

Im going to do better than that. She agreed to deal you you guys. Im going to copy your insults to her and email them to her. She will respondeo to you and ill post them all in the raw on my site. Cut and paste. Im surprised she is even going to waste her time. I owe her one. She says im an idiot for spending time in these blogs.

Bosco used to dominate whole comment threads on the Daily Telegraph blogs a few years ago with all this same drivel, which is why many of us came to the conclusion that the best policy was “Don’t Feed the Trolls.” DFTT for short.

Feeding the troll here does nobody any good. My approach is quite simple: if this blog’s comment threads are dominated by one self-centred mindless troll, I’ll go elsewhere. How many readers do you wish to lose? Thought-provoking articles like Geoffrey’s piece here are worthy of more intelligent discussion, but time after time the idiot troll reduces any content to his own low and illiterate egotistical needs. It just becomes about him, whatever the topic.

Gareth, we all, or at least most of us have tried time after time to make C see the light. You have made the most headway with him with your comment a couple of weeks ago, when you said you were leaving because of Bosco. At that time C promised us all that he would at least put Bosco on moderation, but as with the Catholic Church, this blog is not a direct democracy. C made a comment a few days ago that the reason Bosco is allowed to stay is so all can see how stupid he really is.

C – I am afraid he is, and for many it is getting beyond a joke. We all understand you are in a difficult position, and that as Jess never banned him, you feel under a contraint – but it is now a year since Jess stood down (so glad to hear she is doing well) and he’s still boring the pants off everyone. Gareth is right you know.

Geoffrey – yes, you, and Gareth and Steve, are correct. You rightly outline my main reason for not acting, but I am also against censorship. On the other hand, he has made the same points ad nauseam, and as we are now all at nauseam, I think it time to say something. I shall do so later today. C451

I, of course, share your reluctance, and its reason. And yet, Geoffrey, Gareth, and Steve do have a most valid point, which carries on from Bosco not making an original comment in the three years+ that I’ve been here. It’s thankfully not my decision to make but I find myself thinking more often that Jess doesn’t want us to let him kill the blog either. And in the last analysis free speech only applies to the government’s use of force, not to what is a private space such as AATW.

I will support whatever you decide, as you know, but I too think he is quickly wearing out his welcome, I haven’t seen a valid point from him in over a year.

This, I think, is at the core of the problem. Bosco is simply boring, and there is no reason why people would come on line to be bored. I am putting up a post in a moment which outlines my proposed solution.

"I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend." J.R.R. Tolkien <br>“I come not from Heaven, but from Essex.” William Morris