It will crush all these kingdoms

QUESTION: Is the stone hitting the feet/toes of the Daniel image the equivalent / same as Armageddon, or, the start of the “great tribulation? And does the not mixing of the iron and clay indicate that not all peoples will support the “eighth king” / world order dictatorship with the kind of order/unity that Hitler once achieved in Germany?

As we know, the stone not made with human hands represents the Kingdom. And the Kingdom of Christ will destroy all human governments at the battle of Armageddon. The 19th chapter of Revelation the apostle John describes that event this way: “And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the one seated on the horse and against his army. And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur. But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.”

What occurs during the tribulation is different. The sixth chapter of Revelation describes it as the crash of the system, which is not to be confused with the war at Armageddon. The opening of the sixth seal initiates the time of great distress, which the apostle describes this way: “And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and a great earthquake occurred; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the entire moon became as blood, and the stars of heaven fell to the earth as when a fig tree shaken by a high wind drops its unripe figs. And the heaven departed as a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and every island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth, the high officials, the military commanders, the rich, the strong, every slave, and every free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rocks: “Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Jesus used similar phraseology when he spoke of developments in connection with the tribulation, when he said: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.”

Note that with the opening of the sixth seal the terrified people of earth plead with the “rocks” and “mountains” to protect them from the wrath of the Lamb; whereas, in the 19th chapter the kings and their armies actually go into battle against Christ. So, the tribulation is a precursor of the final war, not the war itself. What occurs as a result of the opening of the seals is that the governments of the world will cease to function for a time. After a period of chaos the governments will recover. That is what is symbolized by the miraculous healing of the fatal head wound of the beast. Also, the two-horned lamb beast when it rises up from the earth —from the grave, and the emergence of the scarlet-colored beast from the abyss, which John informed us symbolizes the eighth king that springs from the seven. (Not that the eighth king goes into the abyss, but the recovery of the beast transforms it into the eighth king.)

The prophecy of Isaiah refers to the recovery of the nations and their being made to stand before God for the judgment, where Jehovah says to them: “Listen to me in silence, you islands; let the nations regain their strength. Let them approach; then let them speak. Let us come together for judgment.” —Isaiah 41:1

So, although the crash of the system will seem like the end of the world the nations will recover in some fashion —like the mythical phoenix rising up from the ashes. That is when the reign of the last king begins, the eighth king.

As we know, the image with feet of iron and clay represents the Anglo-American duo. But what does the metallic image itself symbolize? The image, in its totality, pictures the eighth kingdom. Does not Revelation confirm for us that the eighth king springs from the seven? And the 13th chapter portrays the two-horned beast giving power to the image of the beast. As regards the image in Daniel’s prophecy, it is made to stand upon the feet of iron and clay, which harmonizes with Revelation. (The reason Daniel’s image is only composed of five metals and not seven is because Egypt and Assyria and already had their day when Nebuchadnezzar was pictured as the head of gold.) But the reason the Kingdom stone strikes the image on its feet of iron and clay, thereby toppling the entire image, is because theimage, the eighth king, is supported by the Anglo-American duo —now and in the post-crash world.

The eighth chapter of Daniel envisions a fierce looking king who becomes mighty, but not by his own power. That sheds light on how the United Nations will become a world government, because the nations will empower it —forfeiting their own sovereignty to do so.

As regards the “unity” that Hitler achieved under his Third Reich, that is an interesting comparison. Germany had lost the war, but London was intent on completely crushing its continental rival; so, the Treaty of Versailles imposed impossible war reparations on Germany, which caused more suffering than the war itself. In order to meet its payments the Weimar government cranked up the printing presses. At first there was a blush of prosperity. But as the presses continued to crank out more and more money, the Reichsmark began to inflate, which is to say it began losing its value —its purchasing power —which quickly led to hyperinflation and money became totally worthless.

For a short while before the collapse employees asked to be paid daily at noon and they would rush out and buy something, knowing that by the end of the day the cost for the same item would be considerably more. You may have seen pictures of Germans toting around baskets full of money because that’s what it took to buy a single loaf of bread. Bundles of cash were more useful as fuel for the fire than anything else. Ultimately, the German economy collapsed.

From that desperate time arose the Nazis and the charismatic Hitler. He promised to make Germany great again. And he made good on his promise, to an extent. Unfortunately for the world and for the German people, as Germany regained power the Nazis launched what became the Second World War.

We may expect a similar thing in the future. War and economic collapse will bring people into a desperate condition. They will be happy to have any kind of government —even communism —instead of anarchy and chaos. Just as Hitler reinforced national unity with the Gestapos’ reign of terror, the world government that will come into power after the crash will kill anyone who does not worship it. That is how the nations will be brought into judgment. Those who worship the image of the beast will be destroyed by Christ at Armageddon.

“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever, just as you saw that out of the mountain a stone was cut not by hands, and that it crushed the iron, the copper, the clay, the silver, and the gold.”

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That last paragraph….does this in anyway contradict? The bible says a great crowd will survive, but here it is stated that, ‘the world government…..’will kill anyone who does not worship it.’ I can agree that such will be its intent, and that such will happen to the anointed, but what is the truth of the matter please?

JTK

thats a good question

Mick Hewitt

It has really opened the subject up.

Mick Hewitt

Now that’s why I love this site. Burt I never would have noticed that ever………..Hey Burt I bet they love you….ha ha…your hand would definitely have been ignored in the hall

Burt Reynolds

There was a certain reticence by the elders now you mention it Mick, but I genuinely want to know the answer to this anomalie.

JTK

hi burt i think the answer could be in the book of daniel when nebuchadnezzar demanded worship of the image.did all the jews do as daniel and his 2 companions did and refuse?
and in revelation regarding the book of life we are told that only those written in it do not worship the beast. so what is the book of life and who are the ones who are written in it at that time. i guess it will be the same as daniel and his companions when the time comes
very few!
speculation only but could it be that all non anointed persons are destined to conform to the beast at least for a short time?

The Raven

I’ve been looking at this and the articles Robert posted and have come up with something rather interesting. Once the world signs on with a supranational government it doesn’t mean their citizens will be on board anymore than we are now with the UN. The two witnesses prophesy concurrently with all the world’s religionists and false prophets and there will be many Antichrists as well. It will still be business as usual for them. This begins with the rise of that eighth king and the harlot is riding the beast’s back so we know they are still functional.
If Robert is correct and the downfall and destruction of Babylon is three years into the reign of that final king, then, it appears that individuals will now be forced by their own nations to accept the mark of the beast once religion is outlawed. This would mean that it will only be a few months before the end. If he reigns for 3.5 years and babylon does not fall until three years into that reign it would be appx. 6 months.

Bklyn Kevin

After the Tribulation in Those Days.
What does it mean that the tribulation is cut short?
Excerpt:
That the tribulation does not immediately lead into Armageddon is evident from the fact that Jesus referred to events occurring “immediately after the tribulation in those days.” Its being cut short means that the nations will be allowed to recover momentarily. That is what is symbolized by the beast crawling out of the abyss, by the mortally wounded head that miraculously revives. In the aftermath of the tribulation Revelation depicts the angels holding back the four winds of destruction. Why? In order that the sealing of the chosen ones may be finished. Jesus indicated as much when he said after the tribulation the great trumpet will sound and the chosen ones will be gathered. Read more>https://e-watchman.com/after-the-tribulation-in-those-days/

On the Edge of the Abyss

Excerpt:
Since the nations do not acknowledge Jehovah they will not accept the Kingdom of Christ as having any authority over them. Instead of relinquishing their power to him the ruling elites will presume to perpetuate their human scheme after the point when Christ is installed upon God’s throne in heaven —making them presumptuous rebels and usurpers before God. Their gathering as one will undoubtedly take place when the eighth king is empowered; when the symbolic ten kings give their power and authority to the beast for the symbolic one hour, after the beast emerges from the abyss it is about to be plunged into.
Read more> https://e-watchman.com/on-the-edge-of-the-abyss/

This would be what occurs into the second half of the tribulation after the eighth king takes power. Not during the first half after the war and collapse. I understand that. If the prophecy warns of many false christs and the nations step back away after the harlot is destroyed and all other false religions are outlawed leaving the king to assume the role of greater babylon then apparently the last ones left prophesying would be the holy ones until they are killed just before Armageddon.
So it seems possible that Robert’s guess that Babylon falls three years into the reign of the eighth king may also coincide with the final push to bring the last holdouts under his rule by forcing them to take the mark.
I’m looking to see if this is possible since 3.5 years total of starvation is overkill. It wouldn’t take but a few months to break or kill anyone. Not that I’m ruling out divine intervention here but if the test is to be fair and a great crowd is to come out including some who have done good by Christs’ brothers and Jehovah’s people, then there may also be something to the idea in that scripture.

Jamie Mac

Hi Raven, please elaborate on the 7 year period. I have read this somewhere on this site. Does the 1st 3.5 period pertain to the tribulation where the days are cut short. I understand what the 2nd 3.5 period relates too. I cannot remember Robert mentioning a 7 year period anywhere in his multitude of works.

Mick Hewitt

Not forgetting Daniels reference to the 2,300 evenings too, there are far more interesting developments to be picked over before the end.

Jamie Mac

Hi Mick, don’t think we have had a conversation yet , always nice to speak/talk/type to someone different. Regarding the 2300 evenings, someone has advocated this is alluding to half a day ie, morning , evening. As you rightly point out , lots more to mull over.

Also read Kevin’s comments, there are several but this one explains it very well:

Bklyn Kevin Leonard k • 2 years ago
It’s not what I’m suggesting, that’s what the bible is suggesting

I’m just saying I’ve noticed whether it’s 70 weeks of years or a literal seven years Jehovah always seems to stay within his divine boundary of seven when accomplishing his purpose, so then why wouldn’t it be the same for the tribulations

I think the Tribulation refers to a full seven year period while the “Great Tribulation” refers to the second half of the Tribulation witch is three and one half years.

Lets say that the great tribulation is going to be 3 ½ years like the bible clearly states, then how do we explain Daniel’s 1,290 days as well as his 1.335 days which go over the 3 ½ year time period?.
Obviously It just does not make any sense at all unless you use a seven year time period or 2,520 days .

Now 2,520 Days equal
Seven years and is symbolic of one Biblical week. See Daniel 9:24-27.
There are 70 weeks that have been determined for your
people and your holy city.

First half of the week is 3 ½ years or—–1,260 days
Second half of the week is 3 ½ years or-1,260 days
Now add > 1.260 days +1,260 days—-= 2,520 days

Now subtract Daniel’s 12:11 prophetic days -1.290
that would mean the disgusting thing gets put
In place In the first half of the week on day = 1,230

In the first half of the week on day 1 – one of the heads of the wild beast will be inflicted with a sword-stroke only to revive and put the disgusting thing in place on day 1,230 and misleads everyone on the earth.

Let the reader take note that the interval between the wild beast
sword-stroke and the disgusting thing being put in place is the beginning of the time period for meting out divine justice when the four apocalyptic horsemen ride and men become faint out of fear because of the anguish of the nation’s not knowing the way out. Luke 21:25-27 Revelation 6:1-4.

All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.
Matthew 24:8

It misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the
signs that it was permitted to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it
tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived. Revelation 13:14.
And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they
will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature. And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation. Daniel 11:31.

The disgusting thing that causes desolation will be put in place on day 1,230 in the first half of the week when the seven headed beast revives and springs into the eighth king. Revelation 17:11. At this point – Daniel’s 1,290 days begins.

Excerpt: How will the end come for the Watchtower?.
The coming of Christ will coincide with the world erupting in war, the spread of disease pandemics and widespread food shortages. Then, following swiftly will come the Crash – the complete collapse of the political and economic system.

Jehovah’s Witnesses will then be subjected to an intense period of confusion and doubt. And as Jesus foretold, many will be stumbled.

Although the Watchtower will be discredited and quite likely cease functioning as a Bible and tract publishing society, apparently it will still exist in some form. But at that point it will stand in complete opposition to Christ. It will then be an antichrist.
Read more> https://e-watchman.com/how-…

Jamie Mac

Thanks for taking the time to reply in this detail. Really appreciate it 🙂

Mick Hewitt

Jamie Mac, I am going to take a break..this site has given so much for thought. I must admit my head is hurting now. Going to walk round and round the block on this one.

The Raven

Sorry I missed the first question. Yes, the first part of the 3.5 years is where the days are cut short to ensure the survival of not just the anointed who must be here til the end but what will become the great crowd. Jehovah must intervene or we would nuke ourselves into oblivion.

Jamie Mac

we cannot assume then the first 3.5 period with Nation rising against Nation, Kingdom against Kingdom etc occupies the full 3.5 period as it would only take a couple of nukes to takes us to the point where Jehovah would intervene. Or can we assume that ?

The Raven

No. This time would be the interval between the initial war and the rise of the last king. War would be shirt but the ensuing ills (horsemen) will continue to take their toll.

Burt Reynolds

Can you write that out in an idiots guide for me? By the way, the Jews and various other survived a good four years of starvation, though I understand your point. I am somewhat convinced that the only way we survive is through a total reliance on Jehovah. After all, the Lords Prayer…..’give us this day, our daily bread….’ has a timeless message does it not! No one is going to survive by their own volition surely? Still, I have been thinking about preparation and have decided on a fishing rod and water purifying tablets, and I will trust in Jehovah to provide the fish for my rod……based on the intervention of Jesus who suggested to the apostle to fish from the other side of his boat, and the water, based on Jehovah’s intervention in the wilderness where he asked Moses to strike the Rock and water poured forth. Given that man will not live by bread alone, I reckon fish and water might be a good alternative. I suspect I will answer for my flippancy also.

Jamie Mac

Burt, you didn’t mention your Anderson shelter which you have stocked full of necessities, toothbrush, wellies and clean underwear.

Joking aside. I thought I had a fairly good understanding of all what has been discussed on this topic. Makes you think long and hard.

The Raven

I have no doubt we will have to rely on Jehovah in the end but it doesn’t hurt to do a few things since we have been warned. The situation in the final hour will be so that we cannot hide or conceal anything. My main objective in this line of investigation is to figure out timespans for these events. It’s difficult because some are consecutive, some concurrent.
Btw, this is based on what Robert has speculated so until we can see how it fits, It’s not final. God knows we have a guide , the scriptures but man! We are all still searching His words! 😁

Bklyn Kevin

We’ll Paul did say make sure of all things and that’s exactly what you’re trying to do as to stay awake as Jesus surely instructed us to do and of course there will come a time when we will have to completely rely on Jehovah but until then Jesus gave us not only moral instructions but also told us that when we see the disgusting thing put in place that we should flee to the mountains.

By Jesus’ telling us that we should flee to the mountains surely tells me that we should be prepared I mean when you think about it does not the mountains serve as a little bit of protection especially if we learn some survival skills in how to grow food or make a fire or build shelter while we are waiting on Jehovah and his further instructions. If one reads the Josephus accounts concerning the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE perhaps one could get a better idea of what to expect.

The Siege of Jerusalem, AD 70
by Josephus
Excerpt:
Jerusalem fell, after a siege, to a Roman army under Titus.
Josephus was a Jew who had gone over to the Romans.
Throughout the city people were dying of hunger in large numbers, and enduring unspeakable sufferings. In every house the merest hint of food sparked violence, and close relatives fell to blows, snatching from one another the pitiful supports of life. No respect was paid even to the dying; the ruffians [anti-Roman zealots] searched them, in case they were concealing food somewhere in their clothes, or just pretending to be near death. Gaping with hunger, like mad dogs, lawless gangs went staggering and reeling through the streets, battering upon the doors like drunkards, and so bewildered that they broke into the same house two or three times in an hour. Need drove the starving to gnaw at anything. Refuse which even animals would reject was collected and turned into food. In the end they were eating belts and shoes, and the leather stripped off their shields. Tufts of withered grass were devoured, and sold in little bundles for four drachmas.

But why dwell on the commonplace rubbish which the starving were driven to feed upon, giver that what I have to recount is an act unparalleled in the history of either the Greeks or the barbarians, and as horrible to relate as it is incredible to hear? For my part I should gladly have omitted this tragedy, lest I should be suspected of monstrous fabrication. But there were many witnesses of it among my contemporaries; and besides, I should do poor service to my country if I were to suppress the agonies she went through.

Among the residents of the region beyond Jordan was a woman called Mary, daughter of Eleazar, of the village of Bethezuba (the name means “House of Hyssop”). She was well off, and of good family, and had fled to Jerusalem with her relatives, where she became involved with the siege. Most of the property she had packed up and brought with her from Peraea had been plundered by the tyrants [Simon and John, leaders of the Jewish war-effort], and the rest of her treasure, together with such foods as she had been able to procure, was being carried by their henchmen in their daily raids. In her bitter resentment the poor woman cursed and abused these extortioners, and this incensed them against her. However, no one put her to death either from exasperation or pity. She grew weary of trying to find food for her kinsfolk. In any case, it was by now impossible to get any, wherever you tried. Famine gnawed at her vitals, and the fire of rage was ever fiercer than famine. So, driven by fury and want, she committed a crime against nature. Seizing her child, an infant at the breast, she cried, “My poor baby, why should I keep you alive in this world of war and famine? Even if we live till the Romans come, they will make slaves of us; and anyway, hunger will get us before slavery does; and the rebels are crueler than both. Come, be food for me, and an avenging fury to the rebels, and a tale of cold horror to the world to complete the monstrous agony of the Jews.” With these words she killed her son, roasted the body, swallowed half of it, and stored the rest in a safe place. But the rebels were on her at once, smelling roasted meat, and threatening to kill her instantly if she did not produce it. She assured them she had saved them a share, and revealed the remains of her child. Seized with horror and stupefaction, they stood paralyzed at the sight. But she said, “This is my own child, and my own handiwork. Eat, for I have eaten already. Do not show yourselves weaker than a woman, or more pitiful than a mother. But if you have pious scruples, and shrink away from human sacrifice, then what I have eaten can count as your share, and I will eat what is left as well.” At that they slunk away, trembling, not daring to eat, although they were reluctant to yield even this food to the mother. The whole city soon rang with the abomination. When people heard of it, they shuddered, as though they had done it themselves.

The Raven

I agree. We never know how any of those skills or items no matter how small or few may come into play. I’ve read those accounts a long time ago and they still give me the shivers. My parents were both very familiar with war (WWII) in Europe and starvation and had stories which astonished me for the brutality and generosity people exhibited even in the face of extreme danger and need. And this is going to be worse. Yep. You’re right. We all need to dig deeper into these matters the closer we get to the tribulation. Jehovah has brought us here for a reason. In the grand scheme of things I am not certain why He did that but since we’re all in this library and Robert has filled it we may as well make the most of it.

Craig Knight

Kevin I have a copy of Josephus’ work and I read that part about the woman eating her dead child. It was really a horrible story what took place in Jerusalem and gives us some idea of the misery about to come.

JTK

correct me if i have misunderstood
in short you are suggesting that there is a pause, a window of time if you like, that Christ refered to as the tribulation being cut short, producing a breathing space for the 2 witnesses to do their work the GC to be gathered and then a short time of suffering for those who are of the GC who hide from receiving the mark to wait on Christ to take action at armageddon?
i would say some such senario wouldpossibly be correct, because the eighth king given enough time will surely kill all who refuse the mark.

The Raven

Robert has stated this will occur within the timespan of appx 3.5 years from the outset of nuclear war to the end. The chronolgy of events Kevin has worked out is very good but some things are still IMO not fitting. I think we need to look at the lengths of these events more closely.

JTK

its all a bit too much for my brain power, all i can really grasp is a rough outline. the GT brings down the governments, the anglo american double headed beast empowers the UN as the eighth king, and all mankind in order to be able to economically exist must worship the UN beast.
somewhere in all of that we have the fall of BTG, the 2 Witnesses and the gathering of the GC from all the nations culminating in the war of armaggedon
its gonna be something to live through for certain.
thanks for your efforts to disect these things for us

Bklyn Kevin

you’re right some things are missing which I did not add because it made it to complicated for everyone to understand so I went ahead and broke it down in a simple format, the chronology that I did not write down concerns Jesus walking alongsidethe the two witnesses for 40 day swhen he gives them their final instructions it concerns the five months of Revelations chapter 9 and the little scroll in Revelations chapter 10 also the 2300 days In the book of Daniel
however at this point I am doing this subject no justice in trying to explain it in bits and pieces ,I need my notes which are on another computer which is in stored cuz I had recently moved and left some stuff in storage however Da and Lenny may still have notes since I shared this subject with both of them none-the-less before I could further elaborate on this subject I need my notes.

The Raven

That’s good to know. The 2300 evenings and mornings is an oddity. So are the times and a half and months. Why the different descriptions for these time spans? Unless we’re not seeing something here. We had a discussion concerning the 40 days as well which I believe are literal days. I am working around your chronology right now and it appears Robert’s could actually be correct if we figure in that we are told not to get discouraged if it seems to be delaying. But… what we all need is a detailed timeline with events shown for their beginning ( those we know of) and those which are concurrent with those events such as the two witnesses prophesying . I am having the same problem trying to explain this piecemeal as well. The seven year timeline works for a number of reasons but I find if the eighth king is in power at that point in trib then does he need in excess of three and a half years to do what he does? Here’s where I am stuck. I believe the assets for complete control will already have been manufactured and waiting for the rise of that king, since nuclear war would have destroyed our capacity to do much else but survive. IMO it will not take years or even many months to subject humanity. There seems to be a lot of time given here for a task which he can accomplish much more quickly. Then, how long in this time span is the world subjected to the wrath of God when the plagues are poured out? Many questions. I would love to see those notes when you get a chance and I’ve been pulling mainly from Robert’s and your work on this.
I have two timelines I’m working on but they have gaps.

Jamie Mac

Hi Raven, maybe we have to wait until the time of the end Dan 12:4. Fascinating subject, I sense we will never get it right at this time. Can someone explain what they think the true knowledge Daniel is referring too.

The Raven

A simple chronology is within our means right now. So are a good part of the details. We just need to see this put together. We have a good idea where things fit but not the whole picture just yet. That will be revealed later.

Jamie Mac

I may have sounded a bit negative, I didn’t mean to come across like that. In fact this is one article which has really drawn everyone in and reading all the comments have given all food for thought

The Raven

Lol! I know what you meant and I didn’t take it as negative. I agree some parts we will not know until later. In the meantime Robert has revealed a huge amount to us.

Bklyn Kevin

I sent you a message on your Facebook Messenger check it out….

The Raven

The tribulation that is cut short is at the outset, the beginnings of the pangs of distrress. If the horsemen claim one fourth of the earth’s population then Jehovah cuts it short so the anointed and those who will be the great crowd can survive. After the tribulation of those days begins the great tribulation when the eighth king rules.
There is no cutting short during that time but…It also depends on how quickly they can impose the mark and how well they will be able to enforce it given there are still billions on the earth at that time. That’s also a consideration in the prospects for hiding and surviving. During that time a lot more is going on as well. We have many of the details but placing them in correctly in that timeline are the issue.

JTK

thanks Raven
yep we have the revelation jigsaw so to speak and its just about putting the pieces together, but without the holy spirit working with us its like trying to do it in the dark. i feel confident that the return of Christ and the revealing of the Sons of God will remove that darkness. And the Great crowd will indeed be Great

The Raven

Look what’s been revealed so far. I would say Jehovah has been behind this . I think anytime we seek knowledge of His ways and pray Holy Spirit is at work when we find it. But we must be sure of these things. Yes, all will be known when the brothers of Christ are , I
Agree but there is a reason why jehovah wants some of us to see this much now and Robert has been instrumental in revealing these matters. I don’t know how knowing these things will come into play but many of us feel we need to. Those are my thoughts on it as well as understand and it’s not much in the bigger picture. 🙂

JTK

yes i understand your need, i feel it and have done searching myself for some years, however i now prefer to wait on the jigsaw being put together at the right time, beacause i think there is a right time for such things. Robert seems to be providing the info at the right time and i think sometimes we, or at least i, expect too much from him, there are simply some things that will be revealed when God sees fit.
but i do not deter anyone from searching for more understanding,

The Raven

I understand and I continue to search with what we know. I think robert has given us enough to work with at present thats why I am discussing this with some who have also made notes on the chronology. When it comes to prophecy I’m look a kid in a candy store. I cant leave it! Lol!

Max

So the great tribulation’s period is between the war and the time when the beast crawls down from the abyss?

The meaning of the 7 times of Nebuchadnezzar’s madness?https://e-
Excerpt:
So, the seven times may apply to the period of judgment that will commence in the aftermath of the fall of the leading nation of the world. It may be that the seven times are a literal seven years or simply a symbolic period. Time will tell. (No pun intended.)
Read more>
watchman.com/the-seven-times-of-nebuchadnezzar/

Also read comments…..

What Do The Seven Times Mean?.
Excertp:
Now as regards the question as to whether or not the seven times have any relevance beyond the seven years of Nebuchadnezzar’s madness, the answer is most likely yes.

stumpCertainly all the dramas played out in Babylon and recorded in the book of Daniel have prophetic significance. That would included the drama involving the golden image and the three Hebrews being cast into the fiery furnace; Daniel being thrown down into the lions’ den and emerging unharmed; the enigmatic writing on the wall, and the appearance of Christ-like materialized spirit entities that enlightened Daniel, prefiguring the Transfiguration and the parousia. Surely those events are what the Society has appropriately termed prophetic dramas. (See the Daniel blog) Read more>

Hi Raven
that is interesting and would show us a possibility for being a believer in christ, not accepting the mark and surviving the GT.
and i know what i have said is disturbing and not palitable for us
however i struggle with the scripture relating to the book of life. we are clearly told

“and all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him who’s names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” rev 13:8

and
its not until rev 20:12 that we see the “rest of the dead” being judged from scrolls and their names being included in the book of life.
so it raises a question for me

if the anointed ones are the only ones refered to rev 13 then scripture seems to be telling us that all but the ones with their names written in the Book of life will worship the beast.
of course its possible that the GC are refered to here by ommision, that the ones receiving the mark will die at armaggedon and receive no resurrection there is no possibility of their names ver being written in the book of life

i feel that we should be seeing a scripture that identifies the GC at this juncture as also standing against the mark but there is nothing definite just conjecture based upon the fact that a GC wash their robes white and come out of the GT

The Raven

The message does not change. They will have to know that He is Jehovah. From scripture we know Moab and Edom are judged and will be destroyed. If you look at those scriptures they suffer this not only for their mistreatment of Jehovah’s people and Christ’s brothers but for aligning themselves with the last king. There will be some left over, however, according to that same scripture. These may be those who accepted the truth and “got out of Babylon”, although very few/. That is a possibility, IMO.

https://e-watchman.com/the-judgment-of-moab/
“The concluding verse of the 16th chapter of Isaiah offers a bit of chronology that may have relevance to the time of the destruction of Babylon the great. That verse reads: And now Jehovah has spoken, saying: “Within three years, according to the years of a hired laborer, the glory of Moab must also be disgraced with much commotion of every sort, and those who remain over will be a trifling few, not mighty.”

My main interest in this is the time periods stated so far. If 3.5 years is correct then these events would have to happen in rapid succession. If seven years is correct it may mean a certain amount of time passes before they achieve full spectrum dominance and can then fully force the test.

I am trying to see if it is possible that before we get down to the mark and we are told we “may” be saved from the test how this works in actual time spans since we are caught between a rock and a hard place here. How far into this in years, months or I suspect even weeks, does it become a matter of making a decision not just for us but for all? That’s where I am kicking around a few stones.

Jamie Mac

Raven don’t step on any minefields whilst kicking some stones 🙂 Apart from me, who else is going back to basics to get a handle on this?

Richard Long

If by “going back to basics” you mean removing everything the bethel liars from Russell to now have said from established fact and putting it back into evidence for examination, I am with you. It is delusion beyond the imaginable to imagine the deluded ever once hit the nail on the head.

The Raven

I am just trying to see within these timelines if there are relevant scriptures which can help us understand this better.

I ain’t worried about that. I’ve found some gems right here that can use a little polish, thanks to Robert’s insight.

Bklyn Kevin

At that point in time all the holy ones would have already been conquered (see verse seven)
“It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and “conquer them”, so that would mean Jehovah’s people who were scattered would have already been collected / chosen so in verse 8 when it says ‘And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it must be referring to all those who rejected Jehovah’s incoming kingdom.

Revelation 12:17
So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her offspring, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness concerning Jesus.
Revelation 6:9
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness they had given.
Revelation 3:5
The one who conquers will thus be dressed in white garments, and I will by no means blot out* his name from the book of life, but I will acknowledge his name before my Father and before his angels.
Revelation 21:27
But anything defiled and anyone who does what is disgusting and deceitful will in no way enter into it; only those written in the Lamb’s scroll of life will enter.
Aso read>
Four angels holding back destructive winds (1-3)
The 144,000 sealed (4-8)
A great crowd in white robes (9-17)https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/revelation/7/#v66007009-v66007017

The Raven

In looking to see who they are we might look at individual prophecies which depict singular acts that could possibly place them among the GC but also scripture that might parallel the situation we have now. That’s tough however because this is a unique event. There are similarities but none of them can be 100% given that fact.

Bklyn Kevin

When will the dead come to life?
Excerpt:

At the end of the 1,000 years Satan is let loose for a little while. Why? In order to test those then living on the earth in paradise conditions. Then, shortly thereafter the Devil himself is hurled into the lake of fire, where the wild beast and the false prophet already are at that point. Also, anyone whose name is not written in the book of life is hurled into the lake of fire. Then, even death and the Grave wind up in the lake of fire. And verse 14 explains that the lake of fire is a symbol for the second death. (Lake of fire – Insight on the Scriptures)

The reason it is called the second death is because some people will literally die twice. They die the death brought about from Adam’s sin that we all inherited, but those who do not obey the Kingdom and who join the Devil in rebellion at the end of the 1,000 years will die again and will never return to life. Read more>https://e-watchman.com/will-dead-come-life/

Testing the Watchtower’s “Inspired Expressions”
Excerpt>
Not having your name written in the scroll of life should not need any explanation. It means that you forfeit life. Although Christ was slaughtered that he might give life to a race condemned by sin to death, not one person who worships the beast after it revives from its death-stroke will benefit from the ransom. They will die and remain dead forever and ever. They are forgotten.

yes for sure that is what the book of life is, just what it says: the book of life.
however not all names are written into it at the same time. the anointed who are faithful and refuse the mark and suffer death at the hands of the beast are written into it at that time, but not so with the GC until the 1000years are ended, otherwise there would be no need to lead them to life as scripture describes.
i suspect all the GC are currently within the walls of BTG. the anointed also who like daniel and his companions will be put to the test except this time they will die
and so the question that Burt asked still remains unanswered how do the GC survive being killed as scripture clearly states that all who do not receive the mark are slain by the beast

The Raven

After the four horsemen ride and one fourth of humanity is killed that still leaves appx. 6 billion people on earth. The eighth king will implement the mark, but enforcement is another matter. Scripture does allude to “probably” being kept from the test in that time period for some. Others will be imprisoned or killed. It appears Jehovah hides those who cannot endure all and allows others who can to do so. 6 billion is a lot to control absolutely and it cannot happen immediately. This is why there is a determined number of days for his rule. Yes, his main target are the sons of God and secondly , us. So, it appears also, since we are explicitly told to remain silent we will be able to hide or avoid confrontation until the final battle after the anointed are killed and he turns to attack God’s people.

Bklyn Kevin

I thought I answered his question satisfactory.
okay JTK perhaps I wasn’t paying close attention like I should have been my apologies .
Now in regards to what Bert said ” how do the great crowd survive being killed as scripture clearly states that all who do not receive the mark are slain by the beast.
I will do another research and see what other information I can obtain but in the meantime could you refer me to the scriptures in question again I would appreciate it thank you.

JTK

hi Kevin you did answer the question with regards to the timing of the dead coming to life and i think it is clear that the book of life is written at that point
however we are also told in Rev 13:8 that those who worship the beast are judged at that point as not worthy of having their names included in the Book of life
but also those who refuse to worship the beast are said to be killed by the beast
rev 13:15
so seemingly we are left with 2 groups, those who are killed by the beast for non conformance and those who are excluded from the BOL for conformance to the beast.
trying to establish where the GC are in all of this is difficult and speculative
but please note i am not saying that i do not believe that a great crowd will emerge triumphant from this time period, its just not clearto me how tha twill play out at present, the best scenario seems to be that the GC are under the radar of the beast until armaggedon

The Raven

Here’s something which may be relevant in the final days .
1 Peter 1:12
12 It was revealed to them that they were ministering, not to themselves, but to you, regarding what has now been announced to you by those who declared the good news to you with holy spirit sent from heaven.+ Into these very things, angels are desiring to peer.

If angels seek to peer into these matters I would say the demons do as well. It is apparent they cannot understand or maybe even “see” everything that Jehovah has planned. Not even Christ knows the hour and he is the closest to Jehovah. It is by Jehovah’s spirit that those loyal to him beginning with Christ, the sons of God and the angles are able to finally see all during judgement but the devil and his demons will not. This may also be important when God’s people will literally have to hide in plain sight, in the midst of their enemies. The demons can watch us and hear us but they cannot read our minds or hearts. In the days of keeping silent we may be concealed and they may be blind to many of us. Just a consideration for the means by which some portion of this may occur.

Bklyn Kevin

How are Jehovah’s people killed during the great tribulation.

It doesn’t say they can’t cleverly hide among the nations while waiting and putting faith in Jehovah . Also remember No one will be able to buy or sell if they don’t accept the mark of the wild beast, so I suppose Jehovah’s people for his name will either starve to death in hope of the resurrection due to their faithfulness or be fed miraculously like the Israelites / Elijah .

Revelation 2:10 “Do not be afraid” of the things you are about to suffer. Look! The Devil will keep on throwing “some”[ NOT ALL] of you into prison so that you may be fully put to the test, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Prove yourself faithful “even to death”, and I will give you the crown of life.

Revelation 3:10 Because you kept the word about my endurance, I will also keep you from the hour of test, which is to come upon the entire inhabited earth, to put to the test those dwelling on the earth.

How will Jehovah keep us from the hour of test which is to come upon the whole entire world?
Well if one is truly faithful to Jehovah and his spirit is willing but his flesh is weak, Jehovah will surely supply us with the endurance we need so that the scriptures can be fulfilled thus the great crowd will come out of all the nations just like the prophecy says.

Great points Kevin. Definitely not accepting the mark of the beast will cause all lovers of the true God to face starvation since no buying or selling is permitted without the mark. But God will find a way to watch over his people so that a great crowd remains after it’s all over. But a complete testing is coming to all those who have faith in God’s Kingdom.

Bklyn Kevin

Warning examples from Israel’s history 1 Corinthians (10:1-13)

13 No temptation has come upon you except what is common to men.+ But God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear,+ but along with the temptation he will also make the way out so that you may be able to endure it.+

10 Now I want you to know, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud+ and all passed through the sea+ 2 and all got baptized into Moses by means of the cloud and of the sea, 3 and all ate the same spiritual food+ 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink.+ For they used to drink from the spiritual rock that followed them, and that rock meant* the Christ.+ 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the wilderness.+
6 Now these things became examples for us, in order for us not to desire injurious things, as they desired them.+ 7 Neither become idolaters, as some of them did; just as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink. Then they got up to have a good time.”+ 8 Neither let us practice sexual immorality,* as some of them committed sexual immorality,* only to fall, 23,000 of them in one day.+ 9 Neither let us put Jehovah* to the test,+ as some of them put him to the test, only to perish by the serpents.+ 10 Neither be murmurers, as some of them murmured,+ only to perish by the destroyer.+ 11 Now these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for a warning to us+ upon whom the ends of the systems of things have come.
12 So let the one who thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall.+

Burt Reynolds

That scripture at Corinthians is certainly a comfort. I think I can personally attest to the truth of 1/10-13, in that Jehovah will provide a way out, and then some! if one truely does desire to leave the past behind. In fact, it seems the Father will even lock the door behind you to that ‘temptation’ so that if you want to go back to it, it will only be according to your heart. I think if I empathise with Robert’s motive in writing the final paragraph in the manner he does, it is simply down to the intent of the nations to destroy anything and everyone connected with faith. I think too that though we may indeed hide among the nations, we will be identified by not registering with the beast, in much the same way that the Jews were identified in a similar way in Germany. I believe that Jehovah also says, or indicates that he will save a great number of people (as a witness to his name?), and if he fed the Israelites in the dessert, one might assume that in his mercy, he will feed his people in this day. At least I believe so as He does not change.

I must admit I sometimes weary of thinking about it, and how all these things will happen. Both in and out of the watchtower these thoughts have never left me and sometimes I think it is an unfair struggle for us to be caught between two super-powers. I think, well, just get on with it and do what you have to do. It’s like trying to hit away a nuclear bomb from landing in your garden with a cricket bat. It’s going to happen. No matter what we do, it all seems pretty inadequate on our behalf. I think that the only thing I can draw from Robert’s last paragraph here is that if Jehovah was not going to provide, then why would he allow to occur a situation whereby unless he did intervene, no one would be saved.

Craig Knight

Burt – Everything about this system of Satan is unfair when you stop and think about it. But I agree with you it does wear on the nerves thinking about what’s heading our way. Luke 9:23 “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it. 25 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit their very self? 26 Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. I like this scripture – vs 23 reminds us to carry our crux daily. That kind of sounds like take it one day at a time and let the next day bring what it may.
Phil 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Be anxious over nothing is hard to put into practice but our goal just the same. 🙂

Bklyn Kevin

In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short
Matthew 24:22

we are all dreading those days to come but none-the-less Jehovah will cut those days short and of course it’s very unfair but everlasting life does have a high price to pay from a human perspective but please remember what the Apostle John said .

A Revelation to John A new heaven and a new earth (1-8)
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth;+for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God+ and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” Read more>https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/revelation/21/#v66021001-v66021008

Apostle Paul said.
For though the tribulation is momentary and light, it works out for us a glory that is of more and more surpassing greatness and is everlasting; 2 Corinthians 4:17

On the contrary, go on rejoicing over the extent to which you are sharers in the sufferings of the Christ, so that you may rejoice and be overjoyed also during the revelation of his glory.
1 Peter 4:13

“For I consider that the sufferings of the present time do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us Romans 8:18

Max

I think that not only they might be fed by Jehovah along with His people during the end but as we are being dispersed among the nations they will have the chance to have a last testimony of the truth and the reality of the impending judgement. This way they might have a chance then to side with Jehovah and through the baptism by fire be part of the great crowd entering the new world.

The Raven

Hi Max, I agree. That’s one of the reasons I’m searching through this. Even in those days there is hope.

Podcast, Episode #75 https://e-watchman.com/podcast-episode-75/
Questions regarding the seven empires and the eighth king. Will the great crowd really come out of the great tribulation? What is the meaning of the various time periods in Daniel, 2,300, 1290, 1335 days etc? Also, are Jehovah’s Witnesses the only ones who will be saved?

(Click here to view as vodcast on YouTube

Regarding “Times and Seasons” – Part 3.

Excerpt:
The eighth chapter of Daniel also depicts a final king, described as being fierce in countenance, who will supplant his rivals and bring the holy ones to ruin, along with the constant feature, the sanctuary and the holy place of the Prince of princes. However, this portion of prophecy reveals that the last king will prevail for 2,300 evenings and mornings; after which, the holy place will be brought into its right condition.
It is worth noting that during the creative days when the earth was being prepared for human habitation the account says that there came to be evening and there came to be morning, the first day, and a second day and so on. So that each creative day was specifically noted as having an evening and a morning, in that order. So, it is most likely that the 2,300-evenings and mornings is simply an encrypted way of saying 1,150-days, since each day is composed of one evening and one morning. And in this case one plus one really does equal one.

The Raven

Thanks Kevin. I don’t recall seeing that article. I appreciate your help with this a lot! I’ll listen to the podcast also.

Sharon

you know what,why don’t you develop your own website.than you can spew out all this knowledge you seem to have need to set everyone straight,take a close look at the comments,everytime someone voices their opinion,or comment,your right there to set them all straight with your divine knowledge.P.S.when someone asks a question,its directed to brother Robert,not you brother.time for some humility,something you’ve probably been told your whole life you lack.

Daisy

BOOM! Well put sister, I couldn’t have put it better myself lol…English humour, not sarcasm IMO of course.

Richard Long

Sharon, you are a physician! The acolytes impatiently await the imminent retirement of the master that they might inherit his standing and reputation without accomplishment in their own right. Google “Dread Pirate Roberts”. Since there can be only one, watch for them to eventually devour each other.

Sharon

your to much,cant stop laughing

Richard Long

We should be crying. Even if Robert’s opinion on any number of things were to evolve, he is now stuck with the curse of having to explain the religious fervor of his presumably unwanted and uncommissioned acolytes and his allowance of their free reign in the abuse of his other readers, which should all be presumed to be Christ’s sheep no matter how “misguided” we are.

Jesus gave a commission at Matthew 28: 19-20 to “Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, ” teaching” them to observe all the things he has commanded and that’s just what I have been doing following Jesus’ command and now I have been doing that not only by using the Bible but also by sharing Robert King’s bible-based articles.

And now you Sharon in so many words just want me to move along AND not share the good news / the truth here on Robert site which is contrary to what Jesus had commanded us to do.

What do you think Jesus would have to say about that Sharon?.

Well here’s what he said to Peter WHEN peter became a stumbling block.

But turning his back, he said to Peter: “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you think, not God’s thoughts, but those of men. Matthew 16:23.

Now if I am declaring the good news, it is no reason for me to boast, for necessity is laid upon me. Really, woe to me if I do not declare the good news Corinthians 9:16.

When I say to someone wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ but you do not warn him, and you fail to speak in order to warn the wicked one to turn from his wicked course so that he may stay alive, he will die for his error because he is wicked, but I will ask his blood back from you. Ezekiel 3:18.

so you see Sharon it doesn’t matter what you think or what you say or what others say what really matters is that I am following Jesus command .

P.S. Sharon I already have four of my own web pages In which I preach the good news / truth and I do it happily as Jesus had commanded me to do.

The Day of Jehovah Is Near!
Excerpt:
In reality the prophecy of Joel foretells that God’s own sacred possession is due to become the object of devastation. As the verse previously quoted indicates, the alarm is to be sounded within God’s own“Holy Mountain,” which in prophecy pertains to Christ’s congregation. No spiritually sober Bible student could possibly conclude that that which Jehovah declares to be “my land…my vine…and my fig tree” is in reference to Christendom. No wonder God’s possession will become an “an object of astonishment.” The desolation of God’s earthly organization is considered to be impossibility by Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is indeed time to wake up!

Perhaps the most contradictory aspect of the Watchtower’s 70 year-old interpretation of Joel is that Jehovah promises to make compensation to his people for enduring the devastation wrought by the symbolic locusts and other creeping pests. Joel 2:25 foretells: “And I will make compensation to you for the years that the locust, the creeping, unwinged locust, and the cockroach and the caterpillar have eaten, my great military force that I have sent among you.”

Are we to assume that Jehovah is going to make compensation to the clergy for having endured the evangelistic assaults of Jehovah’s Witnesses over the years? Let us hope not.

Not only that, but Jehovah goes on to declare that he will ultimately drive the locust swarm, also called “the northerner,” into the sea – thereby destroying him. Joel 2:20 states: “And the northerner I shall put far away from upon you, and I shall actually disperse him to a waterless land and desolated waste, with his face to the eastern sea and his rear section to the western sea. And the stink from him will certainly ascend, and the stench from him will keep ascending; for He will actually do a great thing in what He does.” Read more>https://e-watchman.com/day-jehovah-near/

The Raven

I just ran across something that seems to fit in here. Since the watchtower collapses at the very start and Christendom rejoices over this it also appears that those who call themselves followers of Christ will still be active during this period and not under any sort of persecution. It also is evident that some of Jehovah’s people will be hidden among Christendom after the beast rises. Edom is warned not to turn over escapees. During this time we are warned not to mention Jehovah. Could this be because we will be indistinguishable from those of Christendom and that may offer some concealment for a better part of tribulation? Placing people under compulsion does not come about until the latter part of the tribulation. Until the beast destroys the harlot it may possible according to scripture to actually hide in plain sight.

These two articles give detail on this judgment

https://e-watchman.com/legal-case-zion/
“But why a day of vengeance and a year of retribution? Because, ultimately, God will hold Christendom responsible for the killing of the sons of God in the future.”

Just as the Moabites would be judged as to whether they offered assistance to the besieged Israelites, Jesus explained that when the Son of man arrives and sits down on his glorious throne (“the tent of David”) then all the nations would be gathered before him for judgment. All peoples would be judged as to whether they offered assistance to Christ’s brothers (“my dispersed ones) during their time of persecution and hardship.”

The concluding verse of the 16th chapter of Isaiah offers a bit of chronology that may have relevance to the time of the destruction of Babylon the great. That verse reads: And now Jehovah has spoken, saying: “Within three years, according to the years of a hired laborer, the glory of Moab must also be disgraced with much commotion of every sort, and those who remain over will be a trifling few, not mighty.”

“Since it has already been established that the prophecy relates to the coming of Christ, it may well prove to be the case that three years into the 1,260 day period of the time of the end that Christendom and Babylon the great will go down in disgrace.”

Bklyn Kevin

Raven you gave me some food for thought thank you.

Burt Reynolds

Interesting stuff! Where does it say we should not mention Jehovah?

Jamie Mac

Hi Burt, I was wondering that very same point

The Raven

My people will be silenced. Article just a short while back. I look up the verse too when I get back home.

“Although millions of theocratic words have been spoken and Jehovah’s Witnesses have the Bible at their fingertips, they have no knowledge of Jehovah’s judgments. Alas, once the execution of Jehovah’s judgements commences Jehovah’s Witnesses have these words of prophecy attributed to them: “And he will have to say, ‘Keep silence! For it is not the occasion for making any mention of the name of Jehovah.’” —Amos 6:10”

“So you will stumble in broad daylight, and the prophet will stumble with you, as if it were night. And I will silence your mother. My people will be silenced, because there is no knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you from serving as my priest; and because you have forgotten the law of your God, I myself will forget your sons.” —Hosea 4:5-6

Craig Knight

Raven – I’m starting to realize how far behind I seem to be on this forum. I was planning on studying Edom because I kept reading about it here. So you’re shared info once again is of big help. That was so informative. Now I understand Edom Ammon and Moab! That there is support for Babylon’s downfall 3 years into the GT is amazing. Great info! many thanks!

The Raven

You’re not behind at all. We are all looking at different parts of the same thing here and trying to bring it together. Lol! That’s the tough part. Robert has done the heavy lifting with great insight and Kevin’s been guiding us to relevant information. We have plenty to work with.

Craig Knight

I have been looking at your comments about a timeline for the end times. I was planning on making a timeline myself. As RK has pointed out some of these time periods will remain hidden until God reveals them. Anyway, I will be out here keeping my eyes peeled. 🙂

The Raven

I think some folks are ready for something like that. We’ll take it a step at a time for now.
🙂

Max

congratulations Raven your post is very well made.

The Raven

No congratulations this is based on Robert’s and Kevin’s work. I am still searching and Kevin and maybe DA have more to add . It’s got me deeply interested right now.

The Raven

“Since it has already been established that the prophecy relates to the coming of Christ, it may well prove to be the case that three years into the 1,260 day period of the time of the end that Christendom and Babylon the great will go down in disgrace.”

If this is correctly applied and judgement begins with the beast’s ascension but Christendom doesn’t meet her end until three years into his reign then the days he has to force humanity to take his mark are shortened.

Bklyn Kevin

That’s an interesting thought to ponder .

Sharon

well jesus meant to preach to the lost sheep,those in the world,not baptized jw,and I for one don’t want you responding to me ,if I happen to need your opinion I will be sure to ask for it,otherwise,get your bible out,put on a suit and start knocking on those doors.

Burt Reynolds

Thanks Kevin.

Daisy

Dear Burt…don’t know if i can help with the truth of the matter, only that we know for sure that a great crowd …the ones who’ve washed their robes in the blood of the Christ and followed the lamb wherever he goes….will survive Armageddon.
I’m not sure either how many billions will be living on the earth when the day and hour for Christ’s coming will be…only…that in
Rev 6 Christ says…a fourth of the earth were given over to sword, famine and plague… And Rev 9 mentions a third of mankind being slaughtered… ( remember the Rev book stating that blood coming up to the horses (of death’s) bridle. Sent shivers down my spine.
I’m like you with maths…hopeless. How many will not survive..50%?
Needless to say, the Tribulation is to bring judgement on a Jesus Christ hating world. However, our trust as Christians is in knowing that our salvation is sure in Christ , that He loves us, and to follow the admonition of Peter, “Therefore, gird your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed to the world” (1:13) much love Daisy

Burt Reynolds

Well essentially, I was simply wondering if there was something in the scripture that I had missed and that changed the meaning of the Great Crowd that survive the Catastrophy.

Mick Hewitt

What a juncture in exegesis. If there is no furthering of rationale then it will require true faith to continue.

Richard Long

Burt, the “juncture in exegesis” Mick alludes to may perhaps be that the WT arrived at it’s definition of “the great crowd” by eisegesis in the same manner they arrived at 1874, 1914, 1919, 1925…. get the point? Maybe we are starting with a faulty premise that once adjusted may open up the scriptures more clearly for us?

Burt Reynolds

Possibly, if I had any idea what a juncture in exegesis meant!

Richard Long

No freebies. Look it up.

Blessings, RL

Daisy

Look it up Burt…. Goooogle?

Mick Hewitt

You need 3D glasses to examine Revelation
Thanks, that’s exactly what I meant. I congratulate you on your perspicacity sir.

Burt Reynolds

Roberts tweet re: Iran and Russia. On the side is an article of soaring costs to the European ‘union’ due to Britain leaving, especially Germany. Looks like London is trying to shove a wedge in to bankrupt the euro. I said all along that the vote was a fix, now it’s all starting to come out in the wash

Richard Long

Robert,

“(Not that the eighth king goes into the abyss, but the recovery of the beast transforms it into the eighth king.)”

I’m wondering if this expresses the thought that you wished to convey? Does the recovered beast *become* the eighth king by transformation? I’ve lost the UN in this equation.

e.v.g

Probably the UN will be the intrument or the excuse for the new world order, it will be empowered like never before, after all this institution represents peace between the nations, just my opinion.

Richard Long

Right, I was acting as editorial assistant. I can’t get what you said from the text I highlighted.

Hi Robert, excellent article. Thanks, it certainly is making some of us think and ask questions.

Burt Reynolds

It was very sad to read of the JW who was jailed for child pornography. (Tweets). At least we know he won’t be disfellowshipped! This is as good an example as any of the test for us in continuing to love the person and hating what they do, following as we try to, the example of Christ who pleaded his Father to forgive those who were murdering him. Today, we have the soul of children being murdered daily through this vice shown in the tweet. Is forgiveness within the victim? Not if you are the victim? What about being tested beyond what you can stand? It ruins lives, consumes the mind and remains part of your very being right through to the grave. How can one say love the person hate the crime when the crime is the person him/her self and the victim is persecuted in their stead? The watchtower actually blocks the path to redemption for all.

This is why at revelation it says that the Father will wipe out ever tear from their eyes. He knows. Here the watchtower punishes the victim on top of their life long sentence of memory, in order to save what? Money. Not the name of God, and which is their cover story, but simply money. Just filthy money. One could even say the same money that has passed through the hands of pornographers, such as the perpetrator in this tweet through donations. This is part of what the watchtower is eager to save for its own luxurious useage, its sordid reputation, and thus its flow of income. The home page of Robert’s site points to political things coming to a head world wide….how much moreso of a sign is this sentiment true of the watchtower in that within this illustrative tweet, lies the contradictions of the watchtower, it’s filth and its shame, that have now borne fruit.

Richard Long

Do we know he won’t be disfellowshipped? The most alarming thing I read in that article is that his wife is standing by him. That most certainly must require an extremely robust willful suspension of disbelief in the reality of his perversion.

Burt Reynolds

I was being sarcastic Richard, given that these people can potentially get away with these crimes by asking for forgiveness from the all-knowing elders. At least that is what history shows.

Mark 13:8
“For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom; there will be earthquakes in one place after another; there will also be food shortages. These are a beginning of pangs of distress.

Revelation 12:9
9 So down the great dragon+ was hurled, the original serpent,+ the one called Devil+ and Satan,+ who is misleading the entire inhabited earth;+ he was hurled down to the earth,+ and his angels were hurled down with him.

Luke 21:26
People will become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Revelation 12:3
3 Another sign was seen in heaven. Look! A great fiery-colored dragon, with seven heads and ten horns and on its heads seven diadems;

Revelation 20:2
2 He seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years.