Thank you Magnus. I was wondering because in the sadhana it speaks about practicing pure perception throughout the day. I had received the empowerment ( and have kept the samaya) and while it is not my main practice I find it sometimes beneficial when say listening to music to veiw it is mantra/emptiness etc. I was wondering if something like this was alright to do? From my understanding or perhaps guess this would be a practice associated with the 4 purties (kriya?) and associated with the lower tantras and then the tantric vows would not be required so it would be a practice okay for me to do?

sangyey wrote:Thank you Magnus. I was wondering because in the sadhana it speaks about practicing pure perception throughout the day. I had received the empowerment ( and have kept the samaya) and while it is not my main practice I find it sometimes beneficial when say listening to music to veiw it is mantra/emptiness etc. I was wondering if something like this was alright to do? From my understanding or perhaps guess this would be a practice associated with the 4 purties (kriya?) and associated with the lower tantras and then the tantric vows would not be required so it would be a practice okay for me to do?

The short sadhana is very simple to do as I recall, if you received the empowerment and like to do it I think you should. I was thinking of the longer sadhana, which is very similar to the Chokling Tersar green Tara, and involves reciting the praises to the 21 Taras many times. You might need some explanations and/or help from a senior practitioner to do it. Also it takes like at least one hour to do.If you have the empowerment it will also carry samaya in my understanding. What kind of samaya is a bit difficult to say since the longer sadhana contains a bit of several approaches. The way we approach the similar green Tara practice in the Chokling Tersar is to often practice it first thing in the morning, wash before doing the practice and avoid eating meat or drinking alcohol. Also arrange the altar very nicely and keep it clean. In this way we keep the kriya yoga samayas nicely before practice. As to pure perception it is a big subject and I am a bit unsure what your question was about that?

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

As to pure perception it is a big subject and I am a bit unsure what your question was about that?

Hi Magnus,

In terms of the pure perception what I was talking about was basically when enjoying simple sense pleasures like listening to music. For instance I had been trying to visualize when listening to music the sound as the mantra conjoined with emptiness as a way to develop compassion/wisdom. I find it more beneficial to do that as say a Dharma practice then to do nothing at all and just listen to music. From my understanding this would be a practice of developing the 4 purities and perhaps something okay to do even though I only do the sadhana say once a month. But I wanted to ask just to make sure.

As to pure perception it is a big subject and I am a bit unsure what your question was about that?

Hi Magnus,

In terms of the pure perception what I was talking about was basically when enjoying simple sense pleasures like listening to music. For instance I had been trying to visualize when listening to music the sound as the mantra conjoined with emptiness as a way to develop compassion/wisdom. I find it more beneficial to do that as say a Dharma practice then to do nothing at all and just listen to music. From my understanding this would be a practice of developing the 4 purities and perhaps something okay to do even though I only do the sadhana say once a month. But I wanted to ask just to make sure.

~S

Ok, but pure perception is not so much about visualizing or imagining as it is about relaxation and appreciation of the natural condition of everything. Probably also what Namdrol is trying to express above.

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

From Atisha's Lamp For The Path To Enlightenment translated by Ruth Sonam:

"If you wish to create with easeThe collections for enlightenmentThrough activities of pacification,Increase and so forth, gained by the power of mantra,

"And also through the force of the eightAnd other great attainments like the "good pot"-If you want to practice secret mantra,As explained in the action and performance tantras,"

"Then, to receive the proper initiation,You must please an excellent spiritual teacherThrough service, valuable gifts and the likeAs well as through obedience."

"Through full bestowal of the proper initiationBy a spiritual teacher who is pleased,You are purified of all wrong-doingAnd become fit to gain powerful attainments."

Well, if you want to practice Vajrayana you need a teacher and you need to receive the empowerment. Then you can practice and though this develop the four activities of enlightenment. That is the above meaning more or less, but what is your question?

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

After reading the previous posts in the thread it occurred to me that perhaps I wasn't treating Vajrayana practices like hearing a sound as a mantra as taking the result as the path but rather using the mantra/sound as a cause to accumulate to achieve Buddhahood . Then I posted the stanza from Atisha's text which is sort of like how I was thinking about it before as using the sound/mantra as a cause (whether viewed as pacifying, increasing, etc) to accumulate the collection of merit for Buddhahood. It seems from the previous posts that what I had been mistaken was sort of viewing the action as sort of in a sutra context as something that will eventually lead to Buddhahood as opposed to viewing as something that already is...(actual deity, sound, environment, enlightened activity, etc.) with no need to accumulate any causes because the result is already there. Not sure if this understanding is correct.

Actually, in gsar ma schools that is exactly what creation stage means -- if you imagine it is a mandala, it becomes a mandala. This is why it is called "path of transformation". We are transforming our impure vision into a pure vision. We do this to undermine our tendency to engage in afflictive attachments. If we see everything as pure, we will have less grasping. The creation stage is conceptual, not non-coneotual. The completion stage is used to cut attachment to conceptuality of the creation stage. Eventually, we are supposed to unify creation and completion so that we are in the state of the union of illusory body and luminosity aka mahāmudra.

sangyey wrote:After reading the previous posts in the thread it occurred to me that perhaps I wasn't treating Vajrayana practices like hearing a sound as a mantra as taking the result as the path but rather using the mantra/sound as a cause to accumulate to achieve Buddhahood . Then I posted the stanza from Atisha's text which is sort of like how I was thinking about it before as using the sound/mantra as a cause (whether viewed as pacifying, increasing, etc) to accumulate the collection of merit for Buddhahood. It seems from the previous posts that what I had been mistaken was sort of viewing the action as sort of in a sutra context as something that will eventually lead to Buddhahood as opposed to viewing as something that already is...(actual deity, sound, environment, enlightened activity, etc.) with no need to accumulate any causes because the result is already there. Not sure if this understanding is correct.

Yes, the four activity's in Vajrayana practice is something else.

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa