I've heard no one credible in Clipper Naçion who feels that the Clips shouldn't re-up Sam. Even if Shaun steps into the starting lineup (which, in past reports, Sam has conceded), the Clips still need a third guard in the rotation. Shaun and Sam have played beautifully together in the backcourt.

A no-brainer.

Vlad may come for the mid-level exception. Given the contracts the Clips will have to dole out to Kaman and Livingston over the next 24 months, it would be nice to reserve cap room.

I'm not convinced that the Clippers can't do better than Vlad, but it's a thin free agent market and Vlad has shown some keen adaptive abilities. He's less of a knucklehead than advertised and, when prepared, doesn't completely screw you defensively - though he won't get mistaken for a stopper anytime soon.

Spacing is a good thing and when you can pull an opposing forward out to the arc, it does wonders for your post game.

The consensus seems to be that it would be nice to have Vlad return, but he doesn't warrant shifting the reverse gear on the money truck in front of his Bosnian lair.

The elephant in the room surrounds Corey Maggette's future.

Ideally, Corey would function next year in the same role he's held during the playoffs - the sixth man with the full knowledge that between Q's back, Shaun's slight frame, Sam's age, Mobley's assorted dings, and Corey's own training room history that there will be plenty of minutes to go around. Certain games on the schedule will feature favorable matchups, and on those nights Corey will be called upon to start.

But anyone who listened to Corey's interview on The Big Show yesterday heard a guy working extremely hard at diplomacy, desperate to stake his claim as a bona fide NBA Scorer - 42 minutes per night, end of story

The questions the Clippers and the Naçion need to ask themselves is this:

Given that the focal points of the Clipper offense over the foreseeable future will be the left and right blocks and the point...

What do you want in your wing players?

Trying to answer that question irrespective of context is foolish. Trying to answer that question like you're drafting for your fantasy team and not considering that the Clippers will want Brand/Kaman to take 40 shots a night at minimum is senseless.

Trying to reason that the Clips never should've signed Cuttino Mobley for 5 years and $42 million is futile. Did the Clippers overpay for Mobley? Of course they did. If Baylor can get Denver or someone who really needs help at the off-guard to take Cat, should he trade him?

For Najera and a Reggie Evans testicular exam...no questions asked.

But demanding that the Clips trade Mobley is just ridiculous. He's got 4 years and $36M left and Isiah is covered at the 2. Finding a taker is going to be nearly impossible, so forget about it. It just don't work that way.

And since you all despise Cat, I'll defend him here as a competent - albeit overpaid - shooting guard. He's a fairly cerebral player who understands offenses and defenses. He can set a screen, guard the ball against all but the freakiest athletes, recognize where a double-team is coming from and find his post players on the block. During the season, he'll fill it up one night a week - posting smaller guards, driving to the hole and hitting from the arc.

Cat doesn't handle the ball well and can't create his own shot the way Corey does, but he's a nice, durable player and without him this year, the Clips would've been hard-pressed to clear the (8) seed. Don't believe me? Take a look at the game log from the dark days of winter - the Eastern road trip pre-Vlad, while Corey was on the shelf and while Q was on limited minutes. He played at least 45 minutes a night on that six-game swing in late January-early February, averaging 19.9 ppg.

Is he an All-Star shooting guard worth 5/$42M?

Nah.

If someone will take him, should we move him?

Yep.

But Cat's who we have. On nights when he takes only 8 shots, he'll do some other stuff for you and he won't scrap for shots he shouldn't take just so he can feel involved in the offense.

So that's my defense of Mobley. That's all I'm saying. He's a better player than you think he is.

Now, on to the Maggette question.

Let's assume, as we logically should, that Mobley will be back, who do you want starting on the wing most nights? Quinton Ross or Corey Maggette. And if the answer is the former (and I'll cast my ballot strongly in favor of Q for reasons that have been enumerated repeatedly in these pages over the past seven weeks), will Corey settle for being the EnergyGuyOffTheBench?

All accounts - and that interview I heard yesterday - suggest no.

So there you go. You can either keep Corey, hope he acclimates himself to that role (and that the situation doesn't complicate matters) or move him and get something of value.

There's a perception that I don't like Corey. Not the case. He's a sick player who can do some crazy things off the dribble. His rebounding in the postseason has elevated his game, even as he fails to grasp basic shit like...passing (and here I don't mean, like, he's a ballhog...I mean he literally can't find other players on the court when he needs to...like, he can't hit the post guy with an entry pass from the wing and, like, he can't hit a cutter...basic shit like that), help defense, rotations, how to curl most effectively in the half-court - and, yeah, sometimes it sucks that you have do it off multiple screens.

But if Corey would stick around and know that whether he starts or comes off the pine, at the very minimum he's going to see 30 minutes a night - particularly in the Pacific Division - he'd be invaluable.

But if you're asking me to fill out the starting lineup card to compliment Elton Brand/Chris Kaman in the post, Shaun Livingston (with Sam Cassell) at the point and Cuttino Mobley at the shooting guard, then I'm going with the best wing defender on the roster - particularly if he's a guy who's demonstrated that, given the opportunity, he can hurt the other team from mid-range, post if you try to hide your little non-defender on him, and drive if given a step and a lane.

Scoring is the most overrated attribute in professional basketball. If empowered, 75% of pro balers could average over 15/ppg. Ever looked at Quinton Ross's stats from SMU? Kurt Thomas averaged 29 a game his senior year at TCU. Danny Fortson was a 20-a-game player at Cincy.

Do the Clippers need a scorer at the wing? Or do they need a guy who can stabilize a defense in which you've got an undersized PF and a deficient C - though both can block shots - in a conference where everyone wants to take you off the dribble or free themselves up top for an open look?

Do the Clips need a guy who wants 20 touches a night first and foremost, or a guy who can burn the opponent when it cheats, but doesn't need the ball? Few championship-caliber teams over the last 25 years featured five starters who needed the ball to be effective offensively. Who played the wing spots on the Parker-Duncan or Johnson-Duncan teams? Bruce Bowen, Sean Elliott, Mario Ellie. The Stockton-Malone teams? Adam Keefe (!), Byron Russell and Jeff Hornacek. The recent Pistons squads that played in the Finals? Tayshaun Prince and Rip Hamilton.

In the course of a team's maturation, there comes a point where the team's identity and chemistry are illuminated. We're starting to see shades of who the Clippers are and how they'll win basketball games. We can see the kind of team they can become.

I'd love to see Corey as a key ingredient on that team. But if it's a choice between his being the co-focal point of the offense and not being here at all...I guess that's a loss I can live with.

Posted Wednesday, October 29 at 3:20PM

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Comments

I disagree with your assessment of the Clipper's needs for Corey Maggette unique, albeit imperfect, talents. Corey Maggette is, or will quickly become, a top 40 talent in the NBA. He was, prior to the arrival of Radmonovich, the Clippers most consistent 3 point threat, and he is certainly the only Clipper with the speed and power to run and finish on the break and in the transition game. His rebounding is also outstanding for a small forward/shooting guard. In addition, Corey is a tremendous person off the court and of the highest character. That is worth a lot to me at least and it is one of the reasons that I am a Clipper fan, i.e., because of the character of Elton Brand and Corey Maggette. You should review the Denver series and you will see the Dunleavy basically used Maggette as a stopgap measure. What I mean by this is that Dunleavy would go with his starting 5 until the game got close and then he would insert Maggette and magically the Clippers would pull away.

You should review T.J. Simmers recent LA Times article re Maggette and Dunleavy and Maggette's impact in the Phoenix series if you do not believe me. To summarize, Corey Maggette is a force to be reconed with on the court when healthy, he is a terrific young man by all accounts, a strong contributor to the community, and one of the best bargains in the NBA at his salary. You forget that he had increased his scoring average every year in the NBA up until this year when he was riddled with freak injuries. He was the Clippers leading scorer the last two years and the Clippers second leading scorer this year. You want to give up the Clippers second best player! For what, so that Cat Mobley, a guy who basically was horrific in the Phoenix series should start?
The real question should be why should Cat Mobley start over Corey. Why shouldn't Cat Mobley be the sixth man off the bench. Why should the Clipper's second best player and one who, at the tender age of 26, is only going to get better, come off the bench while Cat Mobley starts over him. That makes no sense. Compare any statistic you would like between Corey Maggette and Cat Mobley and you will see that Corey is the superior player. Plus, he's bigger, stronger, and younger. Corey is not a defensive stopper, but what significant scorer in the NBA is? Mobley is not a strong defensive player by any stretch of the imagination.

Todd, I didn't mean Corey was the Clipper's best 3 point threat before Cat and Sam came to town, I meant that he was the Clipper's best 3 point threat at the beginning of this season before he became injured. As I recall, the Clippers struggled mightily for 3 pointers most of the year, but most prominently after Maggette went down and before the acquisition of Radmonovich. After returning from injury Corey's 3 point shooting suffered but recovered nicely in the playoffs.

I want to point out that Maggette came off the bench and played probably the best game of his career, and certainly his most efficient, in game 6 of the Phoenix series, which coincidentally was the biggest game in Clipper history at that time. So here's a guy who is basically walking on eggshells because he knows that at the slightest mistake he is going to get pulled by Dunleavy and buried on the pine as happened in the preceding game 5 and who then goes out and plays the best game of his life. Talk about steping up! How many players would step up like that when sitting in the doghouse? Not many, I suggest. Contrast that with Mobley, who after the loss in game seven (a game in which he was absolutely aweful but not as aweful as in the game 5 debacle) went on some ill-defined tirade about "guys need to sacrifice" that apparently was directed at Chris Kaman for playing without energy. That was not fair to Kaman and he went after an easy target because of Kaman's kind nature. The problem for Kaman was that there was no one on Phoenix that he could guard, and he is not quite good enough to punish smaller defenders on the offensive end to make up for his inability to get up and down the court and guard small forwards like Marion.

So..., do you give up a guy who is a top ten in athlete in a league full of athletes, who has developed into a good outside shooter to compliment his unique slashing ability to placate Cat Mobley? There are probably 4 or 5 teams in the NBA for which Corey Maggette would not be a starter. Why are the Clippers one of them?

i think the main thing is the corey isnt quite the team player that well the rest of the team is.

its a really talented team. he wants to be a star on it and a star in the nba. its sort of like the joe johnson thing phoenix had.

corey sounds like he wants to at some point in his career be the 25ppg guy on a crummy team.

maybe we can trade him to the knicks for jamal crawford, seeing as jamal crawford was the only guy on the knicks that larry brown seemed to like, and isiah thomas seems to be fond of guys with corey's "exciting" style of play.
that said, its not that i dont like corey. he just doesn't seem to fit with the team. i mean physically and basketball wise he can do all the moves, and is more athletic than everyone on the team. but his head, is not "guy who just wants to win", its "guy who wants people to be talking about corey".

this is a guy who works out with kobe in the offseason. he wants to be "the man"

It seems like the basic issue, is the “who gets the ball” pecking order.

1. Those who occupy the lower blocks, beginning with whichever one is occupied by EB.
2. Those who handle the ball and run the offense, insert Sam and Shaun
3. The “rest” of the guys, ie CatMo (Though I will concede to Kevin’s point that CatMo does help control temp), Corey, Ross, V-rad, Bonnie Ndong…

Basically, CatMo doesn’t have the need to be number 1 or 2, but Corey (in his youthfulness) does have that desire to be the number 1 guy. I would say a good number of Clipper Nation fans also want to see Corey be the number 1 guy. I do remember early in the season, watching an unhappy Corey, who wasn't getting the ball from Sam and Cat. I also remember thinking Sam and Cat passed it to each other a little too much. But then again, they did manage to get the ball to EB. If Corey got the ball early in the shot clock, who knows how many times he may have lost it. By the way, can we petition to have Corey train with Rip in the off-season rather than Kobe?

Why is it that all these NBA players want to be the Joe Johnson on a crap team? Why not accept a role as a 2 or 3 on a great team? In the end, isn’t it’s the ring(s) that will make these guys happy?

Here’s a “fantasy-GM” option for you Coach Mike and Mr. Baylor.

Keep the team as-is for the next year. Sign Sammy to his 2 year 6-8 mil deal. Sign V-rad for the mid-level. Play 06-07 with the current “play-off” roster, and leave it to Dunleavy to find a suitable rotation for all the swingmen to get PT. If at the mid point of the season, Corey is still the unhappy elephant in the room, why not trade him (or Cat) at that time to clear the cap space. If they all coalesce and the Clips reach the promise land… Mr. Sterling, it’s time to dig deep into those pockets and SHOW ME THE MONEY!

The other option is to take the whole team on some kumbaya mountain retreat. Then, maybe everyone will buy into the “slo-yo-game and kno-yo-role” philosophy, the team as a whole will adopt some communist/socialist contract restructuring, and everyone will be happy… wait I’m sorry, Lamar Scrodom is on the other LA team, what were you smoking?

I'm not buying the Q. Ross over Maggette argument. Its a classic case of over-analyzation if you ask me. Your gut instinct tells you that Maggette is the better player and guess what....he is. Making rationalizations that Ross "fits better with the other players", that "good teams need to have at least one guy that can only play D and doesn't need the ball on offense" or that "scoring is overrated" just doesn't fly with me. Maggette is the better player (in many different ways), and the coach needs to play the better player.

I agree with you on Mobley though, his defensive versatility and his durability were extremely valuable this season (and underrated), he was definately worth his salary this year (even though he might not be in the last 2 years of his deal).

Good blog BTW, its nice to see some intelligent content about the Clippers (because its hard to find).

I think one thing anyone who is looking at this should make certain to do is to look at it in the context of an 82 game season, not 7 brutal games against the freak of the league. With that in mind:

1. Cat is overpaid, though not by as much as it would seem. He's definitely a little things guy and will have plenty of Cat games over the course of 82 where he will win some himself.
2. Q is very important to the Clippers' success, but this too is context. If there is no one person on the other team to lockdown AND his opposite plays better defense than say Steve Nash, his usefulness in that game's matchup is severely diminished.
3. Vlade is a MLE player period. Not more, not much less. Hopefully he's figured that out now.
4. Sam. He is important, but as the elder becoming old leader, his worth in terms of ability and the team's need for him diminishes over time.
5. Oh Corey, why must you be this way?

A. Vlade - 3 years at the MLE take it or leave it. He will get his Bird rights then and if he earns it someone will be able to pay him whatever they want. Besides his defense not being as awful as advertised he creates freaky matchups off the bench. If he doesn't take it be smart with the money.
B. Sam - It hurts but...Pay him whatever he wants and trade him to some sucker at the trade deadline for a young competent combo guard. Cold-blooded. Wait, isn't that what always happens to 2 S's 2 L's?
C. Q - 6th man for politics sake. Both Cat and Corey are on short leashes and the first sign of struggles or matchup problems in comes Q. He can get as many minutes as his body will allow every night between the 2 and 3 spots.
D. Corey - He starts. He's a starting small forward. He was out of rhythm all year between the injuries and Sam and Cat playing keep-away to start the season. He deserves at least half a season to show what he is. With Shaun getting him the ball on cuts watch out.
E. Cat - He's the shooting guard for now and a while. Everyone should get used to it. When he has an advantage he will dominate; when he doesn't he will seem to disappear but will still be quietly contributing.

Well at least the front court is settled, right? That Vin Baker kid that started against Memphis showed to really have a chance in this league.

"The Clippers will rue the day they part with Maggette."

I'm on board with Maggette, but that might be the silliest thing I have read in a while. Not have a change of heart, not regret, RUE THE DAY.

John R.: "rue" means "regret," which you apparently prefer, according to any dictionary you may find. If someone using the word "rue" instead of your favored "regret" is the "silliest thing you have read in a while," then you are not reading much.

My question is, if you've decided Maggette's the odd man out, who, or what type of player(s) would you, realistically, like to receive in a trade?

As a Jazz fan, I'd offer Gordan Giricek (a fine shooter who, for some reason, is always in Sloan's doghouse), Kris Humphries (a strong, young kid who never looks comfortable in Utah's system), and a second round pick.

While the words alone may be synonyms, they clearly do not carry the same emotional tone. You chose to write "rue the day" which carries at least hyperbolic weight when not used as intentional comedy.

Also, while the Clippers organization might later regret the decision if it were to come to pass, it is doubtful anyone would actually rue the day. I could think of any number of things that would easily balance out that day and prevent the whole day from being rued, such as finding a dollar on the ground or maybe seeing an old friend.

No, I strongly doubt that trading Corey Maggette, or even just waiving him, would prompt anyone to rue or regret anything beyond the decision itself. Rue the day indeed.

In fact, the only one here with a true potential for rue is Maggette himself. If he begs for a trade and they dump him in Portland, I think it would in fact be Maggs who would be doing the ruing, especially the 4 times a year Q would be shutting him down.

1) The short answer overall is what d.han said above. Keep this team together, and if it's not working, make a deal in Feb, not now. By all accounts, this is a very together group. A little PT sniping by Maggette is no big deal. Bring 'em into camp, let 'em fight for minutes. It's a good problem to have.

2) Now's not the time to trade Maggette for another reason - his stock is low because of the injuries. And I just can't imagine what I would take in a trade for Maggette this off-season. If we're doing it to save cap space, then are we taking expiring contracts? Isn't that an 'old' Clipper mind set? Are we taking draft picks? In this draft? I don't think I'd take the number 1 pick in this draft for Maggette. I might consider a proven shooter plus future number 1 pick. And that's a deal you can work at the trading deadline.

3) Overall a little harse on Cat. BTW, 5/$42M is not 'all-star' money. Name an all star making less than $10M per(other than guys on their rookie deal.) You can't. And need I remind you that Bobby Simmons signed for 5/$47M. Welcome to the NBA. Cat's contract is fine. And he does a lot of little things well (like defense and passing.) Of course, he was signed to shoot 3's, and proceeded to have his worst year. If he can find his long range stroke, he's a keeper.

4) Maggette can WANT 42 minutes game, but he won't get it. Not here. Not starting, not coming off the bench. And of course, it's about the minutes anyway, right? I'm still hoping that Dunleavy can convince him that being Mike Miller (6th Man of the Year, 30 minutes a game) is not a bad thing. But this team is too loaded at 1-3 to ANYONE to be playing more than 35. Again I say, it's a good problem to have.

5) I wish there were more Joe Johnson's. I don't really understand it, but at least it helps keep the league competitive. When was the last time Atlanta (or any poor team in a small market) signed a big time free agent? We need more Joe Johnson's taking the money and a chance at being the man, and fewer Alonzo Mourning's sabotaging Toronto for a chance to win a ring in Miami.

T-Wolves fan here- Just wondering what you think of Ricky Davis as the main part of a deal for Maggette? Ricky averaged nearly 20 ppg while grabbing nearly 5 boards and dishing out 5 apg this year. He's also matured a lot in the last 2 yrs. and has filled the 6th man role before without any attitude issues. Like Maggette, Davis has a very affordable contract for the production he provides. You could start Ross and bring Ricky off the bench to provide offense in the role that Maggette doesn't seem to want.

Regarding Ross- the Wolves had a similar problem recently when Wally Szerbiak got healthy and we had Cassell and Spreewell. Trenton Hassell was our defensive stopper like Ross is for the Clips. He didn't need the ball to contribute and really seemed to balance the Wolves lineup. When Wally got healthy, most thought he should start (since he was the better player) even though he wasn't a good defender and needed to get shots. The team ended up struggling and things just didn't flow. There were other factors, but I think we would have been better served to keep Wally at the 6th man.

Maggette for Ricky Davis? A good, ol' fashioned player for player swap. Nobody in the last year of their contract. Don't see too many of those anymore.

I don't see it, but it's intriguing especially since Davis has absolutely KILLED the Clippers whenever he's faced them the last 3 years. But Dunleavy isn't going to go with more offense at that wing, I don't think. Offense isn't the issue.

And of course the Clippers don't want to help the T'Wolves get better, since we've got your first round pick from the Jaric trade (sorry 'bout that.)

From what I know the Wolves pick (what has been reported here in MN) is top 10 protected until 2010. So...you might want to help us get a little better if you want the pick sometime soon. :-)

Maggette is probably the better player, but not by too much. Davis is the better playmaker, but doesn't do some of the things that Maggette can do.

Defense would work too (I was hoping you would get Artest for Maggette), but there's not too many defenders out there that do enough on offense to make a trade "look" fair. Scoring is overrated, but if you traded Maggette for a defender you would be sacrificing scoring and that usually makes a trade look lopsided.

Anyway...just thought that Davis could fill the bench scorer role that Maggette doesn't seem to want.

What's the scoop on that Koralev guy? Doesn't Vlad duplicate a lot of what he might provide?

Also, don't let Cassell get away. Dude is a gamer and you should give him his 2 years. Trading him and a #1 for Jaric was one of many recent dumb trades for my Wolves. Cassell made KG and MVP and nearly did the same for Brand.

Its true that Maggette is an athletic stud in a league filled with great atheletes. The guy can make amazing plays when he has the opportunity. The main problem with him, besides his recent outside shooting, is his basketball IQ. The guy just makes alot of bad decisions on the basketball court, and this is what had Dunleavy eager to trade him for Artest back in January. Its also why Dunleavy will take Maggette out of the game with very few minutes if he's not on offensively. Maggette often screws up defensive rotations and does not have a very good ability to move without the ball. That being said, I hope he does stay and works on some of these things over the summer, because he is such a huge asset for the us. Unless we can get an Artest caliber player for him.

I just wanted to add that Cassell wouldn't have come without Cat's signing. When you are the Clippers, you have to overpay.

Also, Maggette is a star player but he does not quite fit in the Clippers' system and it is being setup. It pretty much begins and ends with Elton Brand (or Kaman - who keeps improving) in the middle and what we need are shooters around him.

Plus, Maggette is injury-prone. He's a great talent and a great person, but it is time for the Clippers to consistently win.

but now, what the hell is going on in the clipper locker room? Doug Christie asks to be let go? The dude has a 10 day contract. This is dunlevy. The problem with the clips isn't lack of talent and it aint xs and os..it's something in the locker room, it's tone. it's maggs vs. baldy. But is that it? what is really going on in there that's destroying this team a game and a player at a time...and is it the coach's responsiblity?

04/12/08 02:02:58

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