A lot P312+ U152- L21- people need to test for DF27. A lot need to test for Z196 that haven't.

Is there any deep need for people who have tested Z196+ (or positive for one of the SNPs already confirmed as being downstream from Z196) to test DF27? I may have a different working definition of "confirmed" than someone else; but it's a pocketbook question, not purely theoretical.

A lot P312+ U152- L21- people need to test for DF27. A lot need to test for Z196 that haven't.

Is there any deep need for people who have tested Z196+ (or positive for one of the SNPs already confirmed as being downstream from Z196) to test DF27? I may have a different working definition of "confirmed" than someone else; but it's a pocketbook question, not purely theoretical.

I'm always sensitive to other people's money, so I my answer would be 'no'. For those that are P312* and negative for everything else...absolutely!

Thanks, Rich. I'm going to post this on the Facebook P312 group page, if you don't mind? There are a few P312* people who are on the fence about DF27 testing..

No problem, and I hope it gets more folks to test.

There is currently one P312* with a DF27 test pending, this person has a paper trail to East Anglia.. He has tested negative for Z196. There is also a person of Iberian descent who I'm trying to convince to test for Z196, instead of testing DF27(trying to save them money!). Slowly but surely we're growing in numbers.

A lot P312+ U152- L21- people need to test for DF27. A lot need to test for Z196 that haven't.

Is there any deep need for people who have tested Z196+ (or positive for one of the SNPs already confirmed as being downstream from Z196) to test DF27? I may have a different working definition of "confirmed" than someone else; but it's a pocketbook question, not purely theoretical.

I'm always sensitive to other people's money, so I my answer would be 'no'. For those that are P312* and negative for everything else...absolutely!

I agree. Perhaps one or two Z196 people need to test DF27 to validate it is upstream of Z196 within the scope FTDNA's testing. However, someone like Thomas Krahn should have a control sample or WTY information and probably has validation (or will soon) for this. I recommend that a Z196 advocate directly ask Krahn if he needs an Z196 to validate DF27's position. Other than for that validation, everyone else who is Z196+, whether tested directly or by phylogenetic default (SRY2627+, L165+, Z209+, etc.) should NOT test for DF27.

On the other hand, everyone who is currently P312*, needs to test be sure to round out their testing of the new Big Three, if they haven't already - U152, L21 and now DF27. I think there are cases where someone has a high probability of being positive for an SNP downstream of DF27. In those cases they may chose to intelligent try to skip right to the target terminal SNP. How do we know who are candidates for skipping to lower levels of the phylogenetic tree? We need to see at least 67 STRs and then compare with previous testers. That is much of the reason I created the Haplotype_Data spreadsheets. If we can reliably cluster P312* people, we can look for matches by cluster and be more efficient in SNP testing.

If anyone doesn't know, I'm a very strong advocate that everyone should test to their terminal SNP (except perhaps if your literal brother or first cousin has already done so.). Why assume when you can validate?

.... How do we know who are candidates for skipping to lower levels of the phylogenetic tree? We need to see at least 67 STRs and then compare with previous testers. That is much of the reason I created the Haplotype_Data spreadsheets. ....

I've just reposted the latest P312xL21 ht's spreadsheet. I in the last week went through about one hundred surname projects, about 25 geographic projects along with the big haplogroup projects (P312, U152, SRY2627, L165) to find more SNP tested folks. As best I can tell, I've included the latest (newer) pertinent SNP results.

I found another Iberian SRY2627 guy or two to go with another German or two. I even found a couple of M153 guys I hadn't seen before. I've got 246 SRY2627+ folks, including 18 with 111 STRs.

I've got 83 L165+ guys. These guys are big testers. 26 of them have 111 STRs.

I've got 34 L176.2* guys. 2 of them are L147.3+. These guys are quite spread out for a small group. From Sweden to the Isles to Portugal/Spain and then all the way through Hungary to the Ukraine. There is a little bit of a rhyme in that. LOL.

After much anticipation, it turns out I'm L147.3-. The test was in batch 462. It will be interesting to see your results, maybe later this week or early next week.

OK, wait a minute, there are more results here than I thought. At least two new Z262 results came in, and another Z198+. Too late to think about it tonight.

Fresh news this morning for me too, I am Z262 negative.

I am still waiting for Z198.

I think your Z262- means there's a chance your Z198 could also be negative, which would be interesting, and would put you into a unique category. But since Noble is Z262-, you might be L147.3+ like him.

The Z262- for Noble proves L147.3 and Z262 are neither above or below each other, when considered together with my result of L147.3- and Z262+.

The Brownson L165+ Z198+ proves L165 doesn't branch off above Z198, but there's still a chance that L147.3 could branch off above Z198.

Looking at the latest study on the Basques, it made me reassess why SRY2627 is so prevalent in Catalonia. The test results from 'Evidence of pre-Roman tribal genetic structure in Basques from uniparentally inherited markers' as I understand reflect around 19% SRY2627 in Northern Aragon. I'm not sure which specific region of Northern Aragon the study points and could only assume it would most likely be La Ribagorza due to the close proximity to Catalonia. Earlier studies pointed to 13% around Jaca and then continued to diminish to nearly 5% to 7% west of Canfranc.

Northern Aragon does not look like a place that could be easily entered into from the North, this is particularly noticeable moving towards the east with Catalonia, Val d'Arreu and Val d'Luchon to the North. The other thing I am trying to understand is the widespread of SRY2627 at around 19% to 20% across the Catalan Pyrenees and around 7% for the large Midi-Pyrenees region of France. Across the Catalan Pyrenees the average of SRY2627 appears to be almost evenly distributed averaging around 19% across all counties over mostly northern Catalonia and SE France. Of course, Val d'Aran throws the numbers way up there but I would love to see more people test in order to validate the claims.

The other issue is trying to find studies where SRY2627 percentages exceed those found in Catalonia. I have yet to see anything showing SRY2627 higher than 7% besides a Canary Islands study which I believe connects to Southern France or Mallorca to possibly explain the 13% on one of the islands. Given the length of time SRY2627 has been discovered, I think it has been very well studied and to claim an origins north of the Alps might be a bit premature. In closing, the variance in Iberia outside the Pyrenees seems higher than in Germany, whereas in the Pyrenees its much lower in variance. I wonder if the low diversity (in particular for Val d'Aran is due to isolation) instead of just solely on founder effect from recent history.

I think your Z262- means there's a chance your Z198 could also be negative, which would be interesting, and would put you into a unique category. But since Noble is Z262-, you might be L147.3+ like him.

The Z262- for Noble proves L147.3 and Z262 are neither above or below each other, when considered together with my result of L147.3- and Z262+.

The Brownson L165+ Z198+ proves L165 doesn't branch off above Z198, but there's still a chance that L147.3 could branch off above Z198.

That's the way I read the numbers this morning.

I should have posted that I have tested negative for everything under L176.2 so far.

If all SRY2627 are Z262+, my negative result distances my branch lineage but puts me in the same location as younger branches M153 and SRY2627.

The impression I have is that older and younger branches of M269 did travel together (along with other haplogroups, I, E,G,J).For example a P312* line and a SRY2627 line could have moved along within the same tribe for generations, so I was born geographically in the spot where P312+ Z196+176.2+ and descending branches are majority.

I tested for L165-, that is the group for my closest GD. Interesting thing about Scotland; from the start at 12 markers it always was my closest matches.

Who knows the AMH might have a revival and explain things in a timeline that SNP's can't.

Who knows the AMH might have a revival and explain things in a timeline that SNP's can't.

It might explain some things, but not the same things. Modal haplotypes are based on allele counts, and those rise and fall (and at wildly different rates). SNPs are binary, you have one or don't -- so SNPs are much more powerful (or less ambiguous, anyway) for knowledge, as distinguished from science of the best-guess sort.

That's the general idea, anyway. Now somebody can go off on the SNPs that aren't binary, the binary events that aren't SNPs, power of statistics as a science, etc. Please refer to my first sentence, not the oversimplification that followed it.

It might explain some things, but not the same things. Modal haplotypes are based on allele counts, and those rise and fall (and at wildly different rates). SNPs are binary, you have one or don't -- so SNPs are much more powerful (or less ambiguous, anyway) for knowledge, as distinguished from science of the best-guess sort.

That's the general idea, anyway. Now somebody can go off on the SNPs that aren't binary, the binary events that aren't SNPs, power of statistics as a science, etc. Please refer to my first sentence, not the oversimplification that followed it.[/quote]

I can understand SNP's do not reverse like STR's do, once they happened they are signatures that mark a before and after, just that that before and after is utterly unclear since the whole group moved together.I disagree that will explain different things, now if the testing of SNP's was the same volume as tested STR's it would be another story but the truth is that SNP's found so far have reached a time barrier limit characteristic of the past 4000K years of people's movements. STR's do not have that handicap, it does have other pitfalls that can lead to inaccurate results but we are dealing with SNP pitfalls, for example U152 but how can you move forward or back in time with that event if we don't know where it came from or how it got there.

I can understand SNP's do not reverse like STR's do, once they happened they are signatures that mark a before and after, just that that before and after is utterly unclear since the whole group moved together.I disagree that will explain different things, now if the testing of SNP's was the same volume as tested STR's it would be another story but the truth is that SNP's found so far have reached a time barrier limit characteristic of the past 4000K years of people's movements. STR's do not have that handicap, it does have other pitfalls that can lead to inaccurate results but we are dealing with SNP pitfalls, for example U152 but how can you move forward or back in time with that event if we don't know where it came from or how it got there.

Looking at the latest study on the Basques, it made me reassess why SRY2627 is so prevalent in Catalonia. The test results from 'Evidence of pre-Roman tribal genetic structure in Basques from uniparentally inherited markers' as I understand reflect around 19% SRY2627 in Northern Aragon. I'm not sure which specific region of Northern Aragon the study points and could only assume it would most likely be La Ribagorza due to the close proximity to Catalonia. Earlier studies pointed to 13% around Jaca and then continued to diminish to nearly 5% to 7% west of Canfranc.

Northern Aragon does not look like a place that could be easily entered into from the North, this is particularly noticeable moving towards the east with Catalonia, Val d'Arreu and Val d'Luchon to the North. The other thing I am trying to understand is the widespread of SRY2627 at around 19% to 20% across the Catalan Pyrenees and around 7% for the large Midi-Pyrenees region of France. Across the Catalan Pyrenees the average of SRY2627 appears to be almost evenly distributed averaging around 19% across all counties over mostly northern Catalonia and SE France. Of course, Val d'Aran throws the numbers way up there but I would love to see more people test in order to validate the claims.

The other issue is trying to find studies where SRY2627 percentages exceed those found in Catalonia. I have yet to see anything showing SRY2627 higher than 7% besides a Canary Islands study which I believe connects to Southern France or Mallorca to possibly explain the 13% on one of the islands. Given the length of time SRY2627 has been discovered, I think it has been very well studied and to claim an origins north of the Alps might be a bit premature. In closing, the variance in Iberia outside the Pyrenees seems higher than in Germany, whereas in the Pyrenees its much lower in variance. I wonder if the low diversity (in particular for Val d'Aran is due to isolation) instead of just solely on founder effect from recent history.

Arch

From this same study, I calculate the following percentages above 7%: Bearn France (16%), which the authors idenitify with the Aquitani tribe, Basse-Navarre France 12% (also identified as Aquitani), Bigorre France 14% (same tribal identification), La Rioja in western Spain (15%, identified with the Berones), and two other areas of Spain (Navarre and Alava at 8% each). It seems that these are the regions which "surround" the "Basque" regions of France and Spain. Also keep in mind that the Midi-Pyrenees result was from the city of Toulouse only...

Also keep in mind that the Midi-Pyrenees result was from the city of Toulouse only...

This sentence (and I realize that I'm extracting it from its context) triggered a train of thought that got me looking at some old posts, sources and whatnot... relating to the fact that some of the more interesting areas (of present France, especially) seem to be a bit undersampled. And I'm aware of some cultural bias against Y-DNA testing, having to do with privacy laws, paternity lawsuits, and the popular press. Anyway, I was wondering -- has anybody tried to use the expatriate Huguenot descendants as a sort of proxy for that undertested population? I looked casually at their project results (the only way I really can look); I confess I don't see much evidence of SRY2627, and virtually none of the N/S cluster. But there is a lot of undefined P312 and M269, so looking there wouldn't necessarily be fruitless. At a minimum, they might want to test DF27.

There might be some crossover from this Eupedia thread, probably one of many (but I happened to participate a little, helping a guy whose Huguenot ancestor was named Brousse, so I know about this one):

And I've accidentally run into a few others; for example a Reno/Blanchard family whose ancestor was something like Raynaud-dit-Planchard in the Limoges area -- and was probably Z220, because Thomas Reno is a fairly close match for me. Didier Vernade (known to many of us) has SRY2627 ancestry from Bourges. I'm not trying to accuse any of these guys of being Huguenots; just wondering about the reconstruction of some sort of proxy, from descendants now living elsewhere, in cases in which testing a modern population may be the harder task.

Is that too non-random to have any scientific value? As far as I'm concerned, it's just a feeble attempt to address the "absence of evidence" issue. The emigré groups may actually have a little advantage, in that confirmed matching Y-DNA lines from a 17th century ancestor may be stronger evidence than having four grandparent born within 25 miles of some British village -- etc.

Looking at the latest study on the Basques, it made me reassess why SRY2627 is so prevalent in Catalonia. The test results from 'Evidence of pre-Roman tribal genetic structure in Basques from uniparentally inherited markers' as I understand reflect around 19% SRY2627 in Northern Aragon. I'm not sure which specific region of Northern Aragon the study points and could only assume it would most likely be La Ribagorza due to the close proximity to Catalonia. Earlier studies pointed to 13% around Jaca and then continued to diminish to nearly 5% to 7% west of Canfranc.

Northern Aragon does not look like a place that could be easily entered into from the North, this is particularly noticeable moving towards the east with Catalonia, Val d'Arreu and Val d'Luchon to the North. The other thing I am trying to understand is the widespread of SRY2627 at around 19% to 20% across the Catalan Pyrenees and around 7% for the large Midi-Pyrenees region of France. Across the Catalan Pyrenees the average of SRY2627 appears to be almost evenly distributed averaging around 19% across all counties over mostly northern Catalonia and SE France. Of course, Val d'Aran throws the numbers way up there but I would love to see more people test in order to validate the claims.

The other issue is trying to find studies where SRY2627 percentages exceed those found in Catalonia. I have yet to see anything showing SRY2627 higher than 7% besides a Canary Islands study which I believe connects to Southern France or Mallorca to possibly explain the 13% on one of the islands. Given the length of time SRY2627 has been discovered, I think it has been very well studied and to claim an origins north of the Alps might be a bit premature. In closing, the variance in Iberia outside the Pyrenees seems higher than in Germany, whereas in the Pyrenees its much lower in variance. I wonder if the low diversity (in particular for Val d'Aran is due to isolation) instead of just solely on founder effect from recent history.

Arch

From this same study, I calculate the following percentages above 7%: Bearn France (16%), which the authors idenitify with the Aquitani tribe, Basse-Navarre France 12% (also identified as Aquitani), Bigorre France 14% (same tribal identification), La Rioja in western Spain (15%, identified with the Berones), and two other areas of Spain (Navarre and Alava at 8% each). It seems that these are the regions which "surround" the "Basque" regions of France and Spain. Also keep in mind that the Midi-Pyrenees result was from the city of Toulouse only...

I failed to mention the higher than 7% numbers in the latest study. I really don't know why they insisted on testing in large metropolitan areas either from the French study showing 7% SRY2627 in Midi Pyrenees. That drives me batty because of all the influx or waves of different populations and Toulouse has quite a bit of influx since the pre-Roman period. I was hoping they would have tested the more remote regions of Haute Garonne or Ariege Departments in the Midi-Pyrenees region. At least test the people from tiny off-the-beaten path villages where the donors can trace their ancestry to at least 3 generations ago.

Also keep in mind that the Midi-Pyrenees result was from the city of Toulouse only...

This sentence (and I realize that I'm extracting it from its context) triggered a train of thought that got me looking at some old posts, sources and whatnot... relating to the fact that some of the more interesting areas (of present France, especially) seem to be a bit undersampled. And I'm aware of some cultural bias against Y-DNA testing, having to do with privacy laws, paternity lawsuits, and the popular press. Anyway, I was wondering -- has anybody tried to use the expatriate Huguenot descendants as a sort of proxy for that undertested population? I looked casually at their project results (the only way I really can look); I confess I don't see much evidence of SRY2627, and virtually none of the N/S cluster. But there is a lot of undefined P312 and M269, so looking there wouldn't necessarily be fruitless. At a minimum, they might want to test DF27.

There might be some crossover from this Eupedia thread, probably one of many (but I happened to participate a little, helping a guy whose Huguenot ancestor was named Brousse, so I know about this one):

And I've accidentally run into a few others; for example a Reno/Blanchard family whose ancestor was something like Raynaud-dit-Planchard in the Limoges area -- and was probably Z220, because Thomas Reno is a fairly close match for me. Didier Vernade (known to many of us) has SRY2627 ancestry from Bourges. I'm not trying to accuse any of these guys of being Huguenots; just wondering about the reconstruction of some sort of proxy, from descendants now living elsewhere, in cases in which testing a modern population may be the harder task.

Is that too non-random to have any scientific value? As far as I'm concerned, it's just a feeble attempt to address the "absence of evidence" issue. The emigré groups may actually have a little advantage, in that confirmed matching Y-DNA lines from a 17th century ancestor may be stronger evidence than having four grandparent born within 25 miles of some British village -- etc.

In regards to the absence of evidence issue, how do we claim such things in areas that have been fairly well sampled such as Spain, Belgium, Denmark, Britain, Ireland, Germany, Italy, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, Switzerland, Hungary, Poland, Czech Republic, Portugal, Romania, Ukraine, Greece, Turkey, Georgia, Armenia, etc. If SRY2627+ is going to show its face in higher percentages anywhere, it would definitely be in one of these regions that have not been constrained to genetic testing due to legality and privacy issues.

Spain without a doubt has been sampled over and over again over the course of some 13+ years now. I can't imagine an area that has been better studied besides Britain and Ireland. Portugal has been studied quite a bit and the numbers of SRY2627+ are not significant, the highest being near Oporto (when excluding Lisbon). Andorra is the only exception in the Iberian Peninsula that has not been extensively studied and I would just include whatever findings are found in Alt Urgell as basically extending into Andorra anyway.

France, the massive black hole of genetics?? Hardly! More on that later. Switzerland, nothing impressive but we do have some SRY2627+ from this country. Italy, again a few but they are widely spread out from Asiago, Calabria, and Sicily as examples. Belgium, a few here and there. Germany, mostly seems near SW Germany where most SRY2627 are found. Sweden, mostly SE Sweden. Poland, a few. Denmark, a couple. Hungary, approx. one person. All of these regions have also been tested in research papers and SRY2627 just does not show up as much as the studies that have focused on the Pyrenees and rest of the Iberian Peninsula. It's really not for the lack of testing and France has not necessarily been isolated from research and commercial testing either.

In regards to the Huguenots debate, I tried looking at other regions where their presence has been felt. So far I can't pin down anything that would give me any great confidence to say that SRY2627+ is closely tied to the Huguenots. However, I am finding a lot of similarities with SRY2627+ in regional affinities such as the Plantaurel region where Huguenots were settled but that may not prove anything.

I can understand SNP's do not reverse like STR's do, once they happened they are signatures that mark a before and after, just that that before and after is utterly unclear since the whole group moved together.I disagree that will explain different things, now if the testing of SNP's was the same volume as tested STR's it would be another story but the truth is that SNP's found so far have reached a time barrier limit characteristic of the past 4000K years of people's movements. STR's do not have that handicap, it does have other pitfalls that can lead to inaccurate results but we are dealing with SNP pitfalls, for example U152 but how can you move forward or back in time with that event if we don't know where it came from or how it got there.

What is the pitfall with U152?

Pitfall in the sense that it lies in the periphery of P312+ concentrations ( I know that the ball of frequency is being thrown according to interests), it is a younger clade of P312 even if it is by seconds. So why being at the outskirts it is speculated as being a distribution point coming from the East and spreading westbound, northwest and southwest bound with older clades. I know everything is possible but knowing what we know for sure about TMCRA and clade ages does not make sense to me. The only thing I see clearly about M269 in Europe is that the pseudo H35 is showing continuity in East Europe and the only branch that arrived to Europe through inland routes.

In regards to the Huguenots debate, I tried looking at other regions where their presence has been felt. So far I can't pin down anything that would give me any great confidence to say that SRY2627+ is closely tied to the Huguenots. However, I am finding a lot of similarities with SRY2627+ in regional affinities such as the Plantaurel region where Huguenots were settled but that may not prove anything.

My suggestion has nothing to do with the religious question, apart from the fact that a religious issue caused many of those guys to leave ancestral homes in an interesting (and now relatively untested) central to SW part of what is now called France -- especially around the port of La Rochelle. The SNPs of anthropological interest happened earlier than Jesus, let alone earlier than the Protestant Reformation or the revocation of the Edict of Nantes.

I only suggest that the Huguenot project might be one place, probably of several places, to look for testable candidates. That is, people with male-line ancestry from that area with visible long haplotypes, who clearly don't mind being tested, and aren't troubled by the laws, politicians, or journalists of France. As I said, that's not a random sample; but in several other respects it might be better than a ten or twelve marker academic sample in which all the "random" candidates are from Toulouse, etc.

It would obviously produce a different sort of information -- not the present day percent concentration of SNP X in department Y, but perhaps more akin to aDNA, not all that ancient but tested to a level higher than aDNA usually gets tested. And with confirmation that the SNP in question, with a known place of origin about 325 years ago, survives at present.

In regards to the Huguenots debate, I tried looking at other regions where their presence has been felt. So far I can't pin down anything that would give me any great confidence to say that SRY2627+ is closely tied to the Huguenots. However, I am finding a lot of similarities with SRY2627+ in regional affinities such as the Plantaurel region where Huguenots were settled but that may not prove anything.

My suggestion has nothing to do with the religious question, apart from the fact that a religious issue caused many of those guys to leave ancestral homes in an interesting (and now relatively untested) central to SW part of what is now called France -- especially around the port of La Rochelle. The SNPs of anthropological interest happened earlier than Jesus, let alone earlier than the Protestant Reformation or the revocation of the Edict of Nantes.

I only suggest that the Huguenot project might be one place, probably of several places, to look for testable candidates. That is, people with male-line ancestry from that area with visible long haplotypes, who clearly don't mind being tested, and aren't troubled by the laws, politicians, or journalists of France. As I said, that's not a random sample; but in several other respects it might be better than a ten or twelve marker academic sample in which all the "random" candidates are from Toulouse, etc.

It would obviously produce a different sort of information -- not the present day percent concentration of SNP X in department Y, but perhaps more akin to aDNA, not all that ancient but tested to a level higher than aDNA usually gets tested. And with confirmation that the SNP in question, with a known place of origin about 325 years ago, survives at present.

When I plotted out SRY2627+ findings in France, the highest percentages clustered around the La Rochelle-Poitou Charentes-Loire Atlantique region. A few also around the Pyrenees-Atlantique region surfaced up as well. Commercially it seems that most SRY2627+ is primarily found on the Atlantic French coastal regions and La Rochelle is the local area with the highest numbers. This makes the possibility of explaining why SRY2627+ is at 13% on El Hierro Island (even though Mallorca could be the source of some too). The Acadians of Nova Scotia mostly trace their lineages to the La Rochelle region, as well many Quebecois. I'm sure the same would have held true for colonies suchs as Port Royale in Charleston, S.C. and the one in Jacksonville, FL (Fort Caroline) had not the Spaniards killed off most of the inhabitants. Many of these early late 16th C. to early 17th C. settlers left the port of La Rochelle. The only problem is finding the New World links of SRY2627 in places like the Acadie region in Nova Scotia and in the Cajuns of Louisiana.