Jesus: Liar, Lunatic or none of the above? - Think Atheist2015-03-03T23:10:38Zhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/forum/topics/jesus-liar-lunatic-or-none-of-the-above?commentId=1982180%3AComment%3A1281315&xg_source=activity&feed=yes&xn_auth=noWhere is everybody? It's lone…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-03-28:1982180:Comment:12845482013-03-28T04:16:08.554Zarchaeopteryxhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/xn/detail/u_2gskiyna07rt3
<p>Where is everybody? It's lonelier than the last living cell in a dead body!</p>
<p>Where is everybody? It's lonelier than the last living cell in a dead body!</p> Belle, multi-faceted dynamics…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-03-28:1982180:Comment:12847322013-03-28T01:25:24.202ZRicardohttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/RicardoCastro
<p>Belle, multi-faceted dynamics working at the same time is exactly what Chaos Theory talks about. That is exactly how one would describe the climate system, human history and, some would even say, human thought itself. The fact that trends emerge and run through months, years, centuries or millenia doesn't change their chaotic nature.</p>
<p>There are many, many different world views that have Jesus at or near the center, and just as many that don't -- all these world views are, themselves,…</p>
<p>Belle, multi-faceted dynamics working at the same time is exactly what Chaos Theory talks about. That is exactly how one would describe the climate system, human history and, some would even say, human thought itself. The fact that trends emerge and run through months, years, centuries or millenia doesn't change their chaotic nature.</p>
<p>There are many, many different world views that have Jesus at or near the center, and just as many that don't -- all these world views are, themselves, part of the multi-faceted dynamics you talk about.</p> The point I'm making, Belle,…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-03-27:1982180:Comment:12846102013-03-27T23:07:12.781Zarchaeopteryxhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/xn/detail/u_2gskiyna07rt3
<p>The point I'm making, Belle, is that it's totally irrelevant whether or not an penniless preacher actually wandered around the area of Galilee, accepting handouts and free lodging from those who wanted to live forever, and sleeping on the ground, eating free fruit from trees he passed or grain from farmer's fields, when he couldn't find anyone to take him in, and eventually getting himself executed by being in the wrong place at the wrong time, the Yeshua of the New Testament, the Christ, is…</p>
<p>The point I'm making, Belle, is that it's totally irrelevant whether or not an penniless preacher actually wandered around the area of Galilee, accepting handouts and free lodging from those who wanted to live forever, and sleeping on the ground, eating free fruit from trees he passed or grain from farmer's fields, when he couldn't find anyone to take him in, and eventually getting himself executed by being in the wrong place at the wrong time, the Yeshua of the New Testament, the Christ, is totally a construct, a fabrication of legends built atop legends and have little relationship with reality, and the farther one goes from the time he was alleged to have died, the greater the legends grow.</p> RE: "Remember that the Bible…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-03-27:1982180:Comment:12844202013-03-27T21:54:17.625Zarchaeopteryxhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/xn/detail/u_2gskiyna07rt3
<p>RE: "<em>Remember that the Bible was translated and preserved by men who did it for a living and took their job very seriously.</em>" - in the absence of printing presses, it was also copied by scribes who not only inadvertently made errors, but who often changed the words of the original writers deliberately, to suit their own agendas. Do you know which is which, many scholars are still debating the subject, so if you have an inside track, maybe you should share that with us.</p>
<p>Read…</p>
<p>RE: "<em>Remember that the Bible was translated and preserved by men who did it for a living and took their job very seriously.</em>" - in the absence of printing presses, it was also copied by scribes who not only inadvertently made errors, but who often changed the words of the original writers deliberately, to suit their own agendas. Do you know which is which, many scholars are still debating the subject, so if you have an inside track, maybe you should share that with us.</p>
<p>Read about the Gnostics and about the Adoptionists, and yet other groups who decided early on that Yeshua was god in the flesh - which group did which scribe belong to? Can you say? Which versions finally survived the transcription wars?</p>
<p>For example, try I Corinthians, 10, where Paul tries to claim that Yeshua overthrew the disobedient among Moses' flock in the Sinai wilderness, and since there were two stories of Moses being commanded to strike a rock to obtain water for his people - easily explained by the J and E Sources accepted now by nearly all reputable biblical scholars, including the Catholic Church - Paul, not having learned enough Hebrew history to understand the reason for the two stories, maintains in I Cor., 10:4, that the rock in question was actually Yeshua disguised as a rock, and who followed the Israelites (can't you just see that rock, slinking along the ground, hiding behind sand dunes?), so as to be available for a second striking.</p>
<p>Learn more, then we may have something to discuss.</p> Actually it's the point Ehrma…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-03-27:1982180:Comment:12832002013-03-27T04:58:52.066ZSteveInCOhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/SteveInCO
<p>Actually it's the point Ehrman tries to make when he dicusses the criterion of dissimilarity, whiich is where I got it from, and I think I pointed it out to you a couple of weeks ago. Now it turns out there's a Hitchens video making the same point? Cool!</p>
<p>Actually it's the point Ehrman tries to make when he dicusses the criterion of dissimilarity, whiich is where I got it from, and I think I pointed it out to you a couple of weeks ago. Now it turns out there's a Hitchens video making the same point? Cool!</p> Hebrews "Author Unknown" woul…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-03-27:1982180:Comment:12830482013-03-27T04:56:43.533ZSteveInCOhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/SteveInCO
<p>Hebrews "Author Unknown" would be Ehrman. Unless both said it, but Friedman tends to be more Old Testament.</p>
<p>Hebrews "Author Unknown" would be Ehrman. Unless both said it, but Friedman tends to be more Old Testament.</p> When I was a senior in High S…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-03-27:1982180:Comment:12829822013-03-27T03:12:07.471Zdataguyhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/Dataguy
<p>When I was a senior in High School I used the "Lord, Liar or Lunatic" argument as a "speech to convince" assignment in speech class at Chambersburg Senior High School, in Chambersburg, PA. The teacher gave me an A- and she said the only reason for such a low grade was because I didn't give an alter call at the end, and my speech was so convincing that she was certain I would have receive a great response.</p>
<p>Today I understand that there are plenty of lunatics which make statements that…</p>
<p>When I was a senior in High School I used the "Lord, Liar or Lunatic" argument as a "speech to convince" assignment in speech class at Chambersburg Senior High School, in Chambersburg, PA. The teacher gave me an A- and she said the only reason for such a low grade was because I didn't give an alter call at the end, and my speech was so convincing that she was certain I would have receive a great response.</p>
<p>Today I understand that there are plenty of lunatics which make statements that would threaten their own lives. And now I regard Jesus the supposed Christ as one of them. There's plenty of documentation of this. Google "David Koresh" if you need to see a modern-day example.</p>
<p>Modern day evidence, evidence I've seen with my own eyes even today, indicates that the supposed "followers of Jesus" only use their religion as an excuse to hate their neighbors, which is obviously self-negating considering the Golden-Rule as stated by Jesus himself.</p>
<p>What more evidence would one need?</p> I think none of the above, I…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-03-26:1982180:Comment:12828242013-03-26T17:52:47.121ZJohn Crocketthttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/JohnCrockett
<p>I think none of the above, I read that he was a radical Jewish rabbi, that was involved in the rebel cause against Roman rule.</p>
<p>I think none of the above, I read that he was a radical Jewish rabbi, that was involved in the rebel cause against Roman rule.</p> @Belle:The butterfly effect t…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-03-26:1982180:Comment:12825872013-03-26T12:20:25.596ZRicardohttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/RicardoCastro
<p>@Belle:The butterfly effect ties in with the question you posed: "<span>Why do you believe he of all people has become a deity as opposed to merely a man who taught?" </span><span style="font-size: 13px;">Clearing that up a bit before proceding: since you are an atheist you must mean "he of all people has become perceived as a deity". </span></p>
<p>Anyway, chaos theory says that there are some systems (chaotic systems) in which no change in parameters is too small not to influence the…</p>
<p>@Belle:The butterfly effect ties in with the question you posed: "<span>Why do you believe he of all people has become a deity as opposed to merely a man who taught?" </span><span style="font-size: 13px;">Clearing that up a bit before proceding: since you are an atheist you must mean "he of all people has become perceived as a deity". </span></p>
<p>Anyway, chaos theory says that there are some systems (chaotic systems) in which no change in parameters is too small not to influence the outcome in a great manner.. Small things have great effects. So, if human nature is chaotic (mathematically speaking it most certainly is) then there's no point in asking why X (rather than Y) was believed to be a deity. It just was. The flap of a butterfly wing may be as important to explain as anything else.</p>
<p>Life is chaotic. Try to answer "Why did Arnold Schwarznegger become Governor of California". It may be even more pointless if we are talking about a character in fiction "Why did Frodo and not any other hobbit get picked to carry the ring?"</p>
<p>So, Belle, the Butterfly effect ties in with any question similar to the one you posed initially, "<span>Why do you believe he of all people has become (perceived as) a deity as opposed to merely a man who taught?" The answer is "Butterfly effect".</span></p>
<p><span>"Why did Katrina strike South Florida (of all places) on August 25, 2005 (of all dates)?" </span><span style="font-size: 13px;">The answer is, likewise, "Butterfly effect".</span></p> My understanding of this is t…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2013-03-26:1982180:Comment:12819792013-03-26T02:14:30.589ZHeather Spoonheimhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/HeatherSpoonheim
<p>My understanding of this is that the writing of the gospels were initiated when they realized that Jesus wasn't 'coming right back' and those with first hand knowledge were all dying off. By this time, many 'adjustments' had already been added to the oral tradition in order to get it to line up with prophecy and history as best as they were understood by fading memories and a culture that was no longer strongly familiar with Jewish customs.</p>
<p>So they knew where Jesus was 'from' and…</p>
<p>My understanding of this is that the writing of the gospels were initiated when they realized that Jesus wasn't 'coming right back' and those with first hand knowledge were all dying off. By this time, many 'adjustments' had already been added to the oral tradition in order to get it to line up with prophecy and history as best as they were understood by fading memories and a culture that was no longer strongly familiar with Jewish customs.</p>
<p>So they knew where Jesus was 'from' and where he taught, and had long before developed the 'tradition' that he had been born in Bethlehem - as well as other stories picking up greater and greater similarities with the relevant prophecies/old testament narratives.</p>