Big companies like Yamaha and Toyota know how to optimize their production.You can't compare them with small/medium companies and their philosophy is very different.BTW Toyota can make expensive and fast cars as well.

But the sheer amount of appraisal for this interface is simply overwhelming, far exceeding the typical internet-hype-thing.

And right here on this thread you got first hand word by someone responsible for producing, recording and mixing some of the most classic/benchmark albums in rock history. Why insist on comparing with the mbox ?

If I could, I would get a new faceplate and brand it something else, put on a price tag adding another zero to the end, and no one would be having this debate.

Is it the super-best-state-of-the-art-yadda-yadda ? No
Does it sound silly good, beating everything around, up to 4x its price? Yes

What if Yamaha bought, say, Metric Halo, re-negotiated hard with suppliers, took manufacturing to low-east Asia, mass produced it, and chain distributed, cutting costs to 1/4th... would that demote their status and high-end?

A copy of cubase studio and MR816csx will cost you $1200. Quality aside this is equivalent to protools HDX which costs $25,000 or above

so you guys explain to me why there is such a gap in price? $24000? difference

Its just business.

Yamaha is a massive company that makes everything from keyboards to engine parts, and they are an established company with many subsiduaries - you know.. they have 'contacts' in the electronic component business no doubt

The MR exists also as the 'N' range of mixers. So they're costs are looow.

They wanted to target these units at the 'project studio' users.. pro/semi-pro and amateurs... so they have to it a price point. With all their 'economy of scale' muscle and R&D/marketing know how they can hit that price point the <$1000.. N12 actually sits nicely at just over $1000.. expensive enough to be an investment and worthy of the price tag, but cheap enough to be useable by everyone.

Economy of scale.

Its like how to make a $1,000,000 - you can either sell 1 unit at $1,000,000 or sell 1,000,000 at $1

Lavry, Burl, Prism etc - these companies just do ONE thing. And they target themselves strictly at 'professionals'.. everyone knows professionals like to, can and will pay more for quality products... And rightly so, these units ARE the best in the world. They just dont necessarily cost as much to make as you may think..

I wouldnt be surprised if Yamaha manufactured the electronics themselves on the cheap.

doubtful

there are huge foundries that manufacture ICs like Texas Instruments, analog devices etc..... Burr Brown who makes loads of popular ICs like opamps are often actually manufactured by Texas Instruments. Very doubtful Yamaha makes anything on the IC level. The UMC foundry is where a lots of the proprietary smaller chips are actually made.

Surely they have factories that punch-out PCBs and E/M packages but owning a facility that can make ICs is a different ball game. Its too costly. since all the stuff that are in these units are just opamps and ADCs. they cost next to nothing when made in high volume but Yamaha or Steinberg does not do enough volume to justify spending the investment of 10 billion dollars to lay down a fab just to make the chips alone. No doubt Yamaha designs integrated circuits but anyone can do that, you can do that. Just download a copy of the NI design suite and layout some gates. Send the gerber files to a foundry...done...... If you have the money for setup costs. Which his huge dough

the way they make these units inexpensive is they design a IC based single pcb. Send the artwork off to china they programed up and punched out on CAM. Cheap a material, cheap manufacturing costs and high volume == low price, but a the sacrifice of audio quality sorry to say. Which goes back to my original question of how can they actually build these units for the price they do and not sacrifice audio quality??? opinions aside, PCB IC based mic pres are not industry standard for good reason.

Yamaha is a massive company that makes everything from keyboards to engine parts, and they are an established company with many subsiduaries - you know.. they have 'contacts' in the electronic component business no doubt

The MR exists also as the 'N' range of mixers. So they're costs are looow.

They wanted to target these units at the 'project studio' users.. pro/semi-pro and amateurs... so they have to it a price point. With all their 'economy of scale' muscle and R&D/marketing know how they can hit that price point the <$1000.. N12 actually sits nicely at just over $1000.. expensive enough to be an investment and worthy of the price tag, but cheap enough to be useable by everyone.

Economy of scale.

Its like how to make a $1,000,000 - you can either sell 1 unit at $1,000,000 or sell 1,000,000 at $1

Lavry, Burl, Prism etc - these companies just do ONE thing. And they target themselves strictly at 'professionals'.. everyone knows professionals like to, can and will pay more for quality products... And rightly so, these units ARE the best in the world. They just dont necessarily cost as much to make as you may think..

There is quite a bit of conjecture on both sides on Yamahas manufacturing processes and cost per unit production methods.

This thread is very interesting. Personally, I would also love to know the economics behind units like the MR816 and similar "boutique" units costsing over 5 times the price. I would imagine that both sides would reveal shocking truths if the figures were ever disclosed.
But the truth is, that none of us here can know this information for sure outside of speculation and conjecture.

Another point, is that being made in China, the human costs are massively reduced. Jim-the-engineer in the backroom will cost over ten times the same cost as the laboror / robot in china that makes the same unit. This is a massive saver for manufacturing. There is a reason why so many products are made in the far east.

Dont get me wrong, getting your gear handcrafted by Jim-the-engineer tends to have a certain charm to it, and generally exudes a certain higher level of construction craftsmanship that many are willing to pay for. However, a resistor is a resistor, and a capacitor is a capacitor no matter how well you solder it (obviously once its competently done!). So often is that handcrafted charm incorrectly equated with higher quality. Not always, but more often than you think.....

On another note, Mr Shaw, it is a pleasure to be able to have a thoughtful discussion with someone on the internet in this day and age who does not resort to trolling, flaming or childish outbursts. (Touch wood I didn't just jinx it! ) It is a pleasure, sir!

Have really enjoyed reading this discussion. I really think the answer to the question of "Is the Steinberg MR816x considered high-end?" is a categorical "no". To me the term high-end relates to the cost a unit, thus by virtue of it's price, the MR816 is not considered, "high end". However, I think the question of how well the Steinberg MR816 competes with high-end units offering a similar feature set is a valid one in which the majority opinion seems to be positive. In other words, the 816 is not and never will be a $5k converter, pre etc.. but it sounds like the consensus is that it compares more favorably than other similar priced offerings from, m-audio, presonus, focusrite etc.. and would likely still be a worthy investment even at twice it's current street price.

Have really enjoyed reading this discussion. I really think the answer to the question of "Is the Steinberg MR816x considered high-end?" is a categorical "no". To me the term high-end relates to the cost a unit, thus by virtue of it's price, the MR816 is not considered, "high end". However, I think the question of how well the Steinberg MR816 competes with high-end units offering a similar feature set is a valid one in which the majority opinion seems to be positive. In other words, the 816 is not and never will be a $5k converter, pre etc.. but it sounds like the consensus is that it compares more favorably than other similar priced offerings from, m-audio, presonus, focusrite etc.. and would likely still be a worthy investment even at twice it's current street price.

I am not sure that it is correct. Surely, "high end" should relate to quality and nothing else. Price cannot be a valid reason for high end. A small company has so many more costs to recuperate from each unit, than a large company. Large companies can buy huge lots of quality components at huge discounts, spread amongst many different items in their product line which again brings further reduction in cost per item. Smaller companies often making only one or two products, cannot apply this methodology.

To be frank, I find this thread VERY confusing as an interface that has been compared to Mytek converters in other streams within Gearslutz is being discussed here in comparison to M-Audio?? How did that happen? You guys are literally judging it against other interfaces around it based on similar prices, which is wrong. This interface wipes the floor, converter wise, with any interface I can think of in a similar price range. I also prefer the converters of the MR816 to the RME FF800, so how it is suddenly comparable to anything from M-Audio says to me that this thread is just opinions and not facts.

Please look throughout Gearslutz and read some real comparisons that have taken place, from people who actually own the unit and have other converters to compare it to. One thing to note too is that the converters in the MR816 were not made specifically for the MR816. They were in fact made for the Yamaha N12 (yes, I have had confirmation of this from a Yamaha Rep) which retailed at £1,300 when it first came out. Yamaha's remit was to make as high quality converters as possible for this unit. When the MR816 was dreamed up by Steinberg (who are owned by Yamaha), Yamaha ripped the converters and preamps out of the Yamaha N12 and placed them in a box, called the MR816, which again saved them a bunch of R'n'D. It was basically a repackage. If price is such an important factor in your judgement of an interface (which it should not be) consider that the converters in the £500 MR816 are from a £1,300 unit.

I am not sure that it is correct. Surely, "high end" should relate to quality and nothing else. Price cannot be a valid reason for high end.

I agree that "high-end" should relate to quality, but I really think it is more often related to price with an increase of quality being implied by the price. I often see the term "high-end" in relation to luxury goods etc.. For example, handmade guitars and amps are often much more expensive because you are paying for the skill and personal craftsmanship of a particular builder vs. an assembly line type product (however, both items can still be good quality and get the job done). In other words I would term the MR816 as being a great value because it can compete with relatively well with higher priced interfaces. It is all semantics really, and we agree that the MR is a fine unit indeed.

I agree that "high-end" should relate to quality, but I really think it is more often related to price with an increase of quality being implied by the price. I often see the term "high-end" in relation to luxury goods etc.. For example, handmade guitars and amps are often much more expensive because you are paying for the skill and personal craftsmanship of a particular builder vs. an assembly line type product (however, both items can still be good quality and get the job done). In other words I would term the MR816 as being a great value because it can compete with relatively well with higher priced interfaces. It is all semantics really, and we agree that the MR is a fine unit indeed.

RME - Best drivers and latency ever, conversion sucks.(it was a 2009 FF400)

MR816 - Drivers and latency suck a bit, conversion inmediate improvement over the RME both AD DA recording acoustic guitars and bass so far, now they sound pleasant and musical, kills the RME in conversion IMO.

Now, I want to combine the best of both worlds, can anybody tell me the cheapest RME PCI card to use the the ADDA/Clock of the MR816X without latency problems?

Just read some post about converters and I know the MR816 converters aren't the best. If I'm using API, Avedis, and A-Designs 500 series preamps, would my audio degrade?

I like the MR816, it's a cool unit but I got it because I needed it and wanted better. Now since I'm going "high end" on my preamps I'm wondering should I keep it and clock it or sell it and get something better? Aurora? Rosetta 800? Mytek?

I havent seen them anywhere pro except for brand endoresment.. need to say more? RME!!!

Please look throughout Gearslutz and read some real comparisons that have taken place, from people who actually own the unit and have other converters to compare it to. One thing to note too is that the converters in the MR816 were not made specifically for the MR816. They were in fact made for the Yamaha N12 (yes, I have had confirmation of this from a Yamaha Rep) which retailed at £1,300 when it first came out. Yamaha's remit was to make as high quality converters as possible for this unit. When the MR816 was dreamed up by Steinberg (who are owned by Yamaha), Yamaha ripped the converters and preamps out of the Yamaha N12 and placed them in a box, called the MR816, which again saved them a bunch of R'n'D. It was basically a repackage. If price is such an important factor in your judgement of an interface (which it should not be) consider that the converters in the £500 MR816 are from a £1,300 unit.

I've been watching this thread with some interest since it seems quite a fun one.

From my point of view, I can't comment on the MR as such because I don't have one. I do, however, have an n12. I also have a Focusrite Liquid Saffire 56 and continue to use both. I also know various guys with assorted examples of MOTU, Presonus, RME and other gear.

In my experience, and that of most of the guys I know, the n12 is a pretty good interface and has some nice features (especially if you're a Cubase type like me). But it certainly isn't any significantly better than anything else at around the same price point. In fact, in my experience, my LS56 has a slight edge on it sound-wise (and that's with everything else in the signal path the same, in the same room, running into the same PC DAW). It's a close thing though - the differences aren't dramatic at all. (And the LS56 was actually cheaper than the n12 - even allowing for the fact that I bought the n12 a few years ago when the street price was a lot lower than it is now.)

Same goes for stuff that I do compared to stuff other guys do with their gear - the differences between all of our setups aren't so huge that you could say that any of our interfaces are head and shoulders above any of the others. And, funnily enough, all those interfaces fall into roughly the same price bracket - anywhere from around £500 to £1000 or so. Unfortunately, I can't comment on how our assorted setups compare to much more expensive things since I don't know anyone with racks full of Lavrys, Burls, etc. or machine rooms stuffed with heavyweight Avid/ProTools rigs. Although I would expect that such things would probably show all of us what we're actually missing. (I'd hope that would be the case anyway - if only for the sake of the guys who had dropped all that money on it!)

Anyway, back to the point. What I and my friends have seen tends to leave me thinking that, in any given price range, the performance that you're going to see from any audio interfaces that offer similar sort of feature sets is going to be broadly similar. I'm certainly not convinced that there is anything out there that punches significantly and consistently above its weight. In terms of a small home or project studio, they're pretty much all good enough for the job once you hit that £500 mark. I'm not sure I'd use any of them if I was building a serious commercial facility, but I'd also be spending a helluva lot more money if I was doing that.

Which is why I find threads like this fun. There seems to be a lot of love for the MR series on here. It kind of looks like the audio interface equivalent of the Gap73 for pres or the SM7 for mics - sort of the Gearslutz "most loved". And I'm not sure why that should be. OK, I'm pretty sure that the MR816 is a good interface and gives good results - my own experience with the n12 tells me that. But I think this is the only place I know where anyone could ask the question "Is the MR816 high-end?" with a straight face. However you define "high-end" (which are kind of vague and weaselly words at the best of times) I don't know of anyone who would say that the MR816 (or n12 or LS56 or Fireface or Firestudio or MOTU 828 or whatever) really makes that kind of grade.

As ever, YMMV. I guess I win either way - if it ain't high-end I've no reason to be disappointed. If it is, then it seems like I must already have a rack/desk of high-end gear myself without ever having realised it!

However, a resistor is a resistor, and a capacitor is a capacitor no matter how well you solder it (obviously once its competently done!).

Actually, you know that's not true, right? Different MODEL capacitor of the same value will perform differently....but, the performance will also be different on a breadboard. In some ways, worse...in some ways better.

*Note that the signal used in that test is -60db, it's how RMAA tests dynamic range. So with the MR816 for example all the extra junk you're seeing is actually around 60db below the signal and would get raised if you apply compression to it.

And here's what the frequency response looks like in comparison to the 828mk2, as well as the odd behaviour found with the MR816 which causes a different frequency response using the combo jacks depending on if you plug in using XLR or TRS:

Splitting tiny pubic hairs: In my experience the Lavry is more pristine and real, and Mytek is sweeter and rounder - I dont know dac. The MR816 has something on the top, like a breeze of air that is very pleasant in one pass, in some sources like piano it's tear inducing, but it gets harsh/thin after many passes. In short Lavry and Mytek are better and proper high-end, while MR816 is still prosumer. The sound is "close" though. Closer than you would expect by their price gap.

EDIT: I think that "breeze of air" in the top frequencies makes it feel "alive" and that's why it beat the Prism on a shootout here. In blind shootouts the file with the high freq boost usually wins. In comparison the Prism sounds more robust but also "duller" - but it's really just closer to the source. So your ears might prefer the breeze one, but your brain should resist the temptation and pick the natural one, on this particular case.

Ok.. There's no magic at work here, the MR816 has a low end roll off and high end boost which is why it sounds thin after a few passes. People are of course famously fooled by brighter sound when comparing converters.

Lavry & Mytek 192 are both far more transparent than the MR816 and neither is "round". Both companies strive to produce transparent sound free of coloration and do just that.

Ok I'm starting to have problems with the MR816 on SL 10.6.8. Random drop outs and it's annoying. I love the unit and all but I can't work like this...I've update the drivers and firmware and during a session, it just drops out. Happened yesterday like 5-6 times and then a few other times. Ok, this morning, took it to another studio and tried to load a session and it did the same exact thing. Then we tried recording vocals straight through it and what happens....GLITCHES and DROP OUTS. When I first got it I wasn't using it as much but now it's a lot of tracking and a lot of problems...

Oh and I didn't mean to offend any of you guys at all or seem like an ***...just thought "high end" was based on quality and price not just price. Plus this may be stupid but I talked to a Sweet Water rep and he was like "Yeah man the MR816 is great and rock solid. Even has solid state mic pre's that are considered top of the line". I've always wanted that Solid State or Neve sound and once he said that about the mic pre's I ordered it and came in here with the big head.

Now I'm to the point where I'm thinking of ditching it and going with RME. I know the drivers are legit and quality is there along with expandability as well.

Which RME unit should I grab? I need a minimum of 16 channels, any recommendations?