From Anne.Lord at ripe.net Fri May 6 13:04:27 1994
From: Anne.Lord at ripe.net (Anne Lord)
Date: Fri, 06 May 1994 13:04:27 +0200
Subject: 2nd Local IR workshop announcement and registration form.
Message-ID: <9405061104.AA23679@mellow.ripe.net>
The second Local IR workshop will be held on Monday 16th May. The
meeting will run from 10.00 - 12.30. The number of participants will
be limited to *only* those who register using the form below. Coffee
and lunch is included. The location of the meeting will be announced
just before the meeting and only to those who register.
Please register asap so we can organise the catering.
Thanks,
Anne
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - -- - - - - - -- -- - - -- - -
18th RIPE meeting
LOCAL IR CLOSED WORKSHOP
Amsterdam, May 16th, 10.00 am
Programme and Registration Form
Total useful time: 120 minutes
Breaks: 30 Minutes
1. Review of the Program (10')
If any participant has something interesting we would love to hear it.
Please mail to in advance if possible.
2. Tools for registries (30')
At the NCC we have developed some tools to help with registry work.
We are sure other registries have done the same.
We would like such tools to be more widely used if applicable.
Overview of tools being developed at the NCC
Overview of tools being developed elsewhere
stt: Standard Text Tool
or
How to reply to answer mail courteously and efficiently
3. Private Address Space (RFC1597) (30'):
RFC1597 has been published and IANA has reserved IP address space
for private parts of enterprise networks. We'll have a short review
of the RFC by one of the authors and a discussion what local
registries should do with it.
What is private address space?
How does it affect local registries?
Discussion.
4. Common pitfalls in in-addr.arpa name service (20')
The NCC sees quite a numberof configuration errors in in-addr.arpa zones.
Common pitfalls are going to be discussed and ripe-105 reviewed.
5. Interesting Assignment Cases (30')
A discussion of difficult cases of address space assignment from the NCC
and local registries.
- - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - -Registration Form- - - -- - - - - - -
Local IR workshop
Monday 16th May, 10.00
( ) I would like take part in the LOCAL IR workshop.
Name:
Organisation/affiliation:
Country:
Please send your completed form to .
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - -- - - - - - - - - -
From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Tue May 10 16:58:46 1994
From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg)
Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 16:58:46 +0200
Subject: Classless Registry Drafts
Message-ID: <9405101458.AA07315@reif.ripe.net>
Dear colleagues,
we have prepared three draft documents describing how support for
classless addresses can be added to the RIPE database. At the same time
we propose a clear split between the allocation registry and the routing
registry functions of the database. The allocation registry holds
information about address space assignments done by Internet registries,
while the routing registry holds information about routing policies and
is largely maintained by the service providers.
The three documents each describe one part of this new database.
ripe-81++ - routing registry
ripe-inetnum - allocation registry
ripe-clarep - representation of classless addresses
ripe-81++ is the longest document of the three. It describes the
routing registry part of the database. It is a direct descendant of
ripe-81. There are major changes as required by the separation of
allocation and routing information. Also there is now support
for classless routes and hence CIDR aggregation. It is also now
possible to describe multiple ASes originating the same route.
ripe-inetnum describes the changed inetnum object which is basically
stripped of all routing and obsoleted attributes. ripe-inetnum also
describes the person object and thus constitutes a complete reference
for the allocation registry.
ripe-clarep describes the representation of classless addresses in the
RIPE database and thus in both the routing and the allocation registry.
As these proposals are relevant to all three working groups addressed,
we would appreciate if they could be discussed at the upcoming meeting
and if at all possible consensus reached at least about the general
design behind them. We need to make the registries classless as soon as
possible and it will take some time to do the implementation.
The documents can be found in ftp.ripe.net:ripe/drafts/.{ps,txt}.
We will be sending MIMEd announcements for all three shortly.
Comments are very welcome indeed.
Daniel
Marten
Tony
From ncc at ripe.net Tue May 10 17:07:53 1994
From: ncc at ripe.net (RIPE NCC Draft Document Annoucement Service)
Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 17:07:53 +0200
Subject: New Draft Document available: ripe-clarep
Message-ID: <9405101507.AA17983@mature.ripe.net>
This is to announce a draft version of the classless reperesentation
document.
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From ncc at ripe.net Tue May 10 17:06:00 1994
From: ncc at ripe.net (RIPE NCC Draft Document Annoucement Service)
Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 17:06:00 +0200
Subject: New Draft Document available: ripe-81++
Message-ID: <9405101506.AA17972@mature.ripe.net>
This is to announce a draft version of ripe-81++.
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From ncc at ripe.net Tue May 10 17:10:13 1994
From: ncc at ripe.net (RIPE NCC Draft Document Annoucement Service)
Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 17:10:13 +0200
Subject: New Draft Document available: ripe-inetnum
Message-ID: <9405101510.AA17998@mature.ripe.net>
Short content description
-------------------------
This is to announce a draft update to the inetnum document originally
known as ripe-050.
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The relevant filenames for this document are:
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Electronic Mail Retrieval of Documents
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RIPE NCC Interactive Information Server
---------------------------------------
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From woeber at cc.univie.ac.at Wed May 11 17:59:48 1994
From: woeber at cc.univie.ac.at (Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet)
Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 16:59:48 +0100
Subject: Action 17.3,4: Proposal - Report format for address assignments
Message-ID: <0097E477.9DF17FC0.3984@cc.univie.ac.at>
Dear all,
this is the first proposal - for discussion - of a possible report
format for the local registries. While I did not yet have a good idea
for a simple "graphical" format, this is a format that could be used
both internally for keeping track of allocations and could be easy to
compare.
To have a sort of "live" example, I converted my local file into the
proposed format.
Any input welcome!
Wilfried.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#
# ACTIVE$DKA300:[WILFRIED.LOCAL_IR]193_170_X_0.LIST history kept by CMS
#
193.170.1.0 193.170.254.0 ACONET initially managed by NCC, now by UniVie
Legend:
Block: CIDR block
F/A(+R): F=free, A=assigned + optional reservation
Start: first address in block
End: last address in block
Netname: name of network(s) used in the RIPE-DB
to whom: local assignement information (optional)
Block F/A(+R) Start End Netname(s) to whom...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
01 F.01.-- 193.170.0.0 - not to be assigned!
01 F.01.-- 193.170.1.0 - FREE (revoked ass. for Vienna EB
01 A.01.-- 193.170.2.0 TVLBG Technikum Vorarlberg
01 A.01.-- 193.170.3.0 ATINET Atominst. der Oest. Univ.
01 A.01.-- 193.170.4.0 ELAKVIE HS f. Musik u. darst. Kunst, I.f
01 A.01.-- 193.170.5.0 WAZ Wiener Akad. f. Zukunftsfragen b
02 A.01.01 193.170.6.0 193.170.7.0 VA-EDV HBLVA Spengergasse
04 A.02.02 193.170.8.0 193.170.11.0 TGM TGM Wien-XX
02 A.01.01 193.170.12.0 193.170.13.0 OINET Oekologie Institut
02 A.01.01 193.170.14.0 193.170.15.0 XBIT HTBL Klagenfurt
16 A.16.-- 193.170.16.0 193.170.31.0 UNILEO-C1,2,... Uni Leoben
16 A.08.08 193.170.32.0 193.170.47.0 KGI-LAN Uni-Linz
16 A.16.-- 193.170.48.0 193.170.63.0 UNIVIE11,12,... UniVie scattered nets
02 A.01.01 193.170.64.0 193.170.65.0 ARCS1 Seibersdorf
01 A.01.-- 193.170.66.0 CEDAR CEDAR C.E.Data Request Fac.
01 F.01.-- 193.170.67.0 - FREE
02 A.01.01 193.170.68.0 193.170.69.0 INTIBNET UNIDO/IPCT/TDP/INF
02 A.01.01 193.170.70.0 193.170.71.0 HTL-RANKWEIL HTL Rankweil
08 A.05.03 193.170.72.0 193.170.79.0 TUNET-S6,7,... TU-Wien
16 A.16.-- 193.170.80.0 193.170.95.0 OEAW-C-NETS OeAW, Inst. Netzwerke
08 A.04.04 193.170.96.0 193.170.103.0 KHS-LINZ-NETS Univ. of Arts and Ind. Design
08 A.04.04 193.170.104.0 193.170.111.0 ARSENAL BVFA Arsenal by. A.Deutsch
04 A.02.02 193.170.112.0 193.170.115.0 ONB Oest.Nat.Bibliothek, Pl.Stelle
02 A.01.01 193.170.116.0 193.170.117.0 ODVNET Umweltbundesamt Ozon-DV by H.Mir
02 A.01.01 193.170.118.0 193.170.119.0 HTL-STP Hvhere technische BLA St.Pvlten
04 A.01.03 193.170.120.0 193.170.123.0 ATMAGL Mag. der Stadt Linz
04 A.04.-- 193.170.124.0 193.170.127.0 FHS-HGBG-LAN FHS-Hagenberg
08 A.04.04 193.170.128.0 193.170.135.0 MHS-GRAZ HS f. Musik u. darst. Kunst
02 A.01.01 193.170.136.0 193.170.137.0 UNILEOBEN Uni Leoben
02 A.01.01 193.170.138.0 193.170.139.0 PIB-WIEN PIB Paedag.Inst.d.Bundes
02 A.02.-- 193.170.140.0 193.170.141.0 VIE-EBS1,2 Vienna-EBS1 serial outgoing
02 A.01.01 193.170.142.0 193.170.143.0 AMDA-AT AMDA-AT Linz
04 A.03.01 193.170.144.0 193.170.147.0 ADBK Akad. d. bildenden Kuenste Wien
04 F.04.-- 193.170.148.0 193.170.151.0 - FREE
04 A.02.02 193.170.152.0 193.170.155.0 BDANET Bundesdenkmalamt by H.Hatzinger
04 A.04.-- 193.170.156.0 193.170.159.0 HTL-LEONDING HTL-Leonding
02 A.02.-- 193.170.160.0 193.170.161.0 UBA-VIENNA Umweltbundesamt Wien by H.Mirth
01 A.01.-- 193.170.162.0 HTL-WIEN-1 HTL Wien I, Schellinggasse
01 A.01.-- 193.170.163.0 OESTAT Statistisches Zentralamt by W.St
02 A.01.01 193.170.164.0 193.170.165.0 PTT01NET G.Dir. f.d. Post u. Telegr.verw.
02 A.01.01 193.170.166.0 193.170.167.0 OEHZA OeH Zentralausschuss by K.Egger
08 A.08.-- 193.170.168.0 193.170.175.0 ZAMGRZ ZA f. Meteorologie u. Geodynamik
08 A.06.02 193.170.176.0 193.170.183.0 MOZNET HS MudK "Mozarteum" Salzburg
08 F.08.-- 193.170.184.0 193.170.191.0 - FREE
64 A.01.63 193.170.192.0 193.170.254.0 AEN Ars Electronica Ctr./Mus.3rd.Mil
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Statistics:
Addresses assigned: 130
Addresses reserved: 111
Addresses free: 15
Biggest block ass'd: 64
Size Number Free Ass'd Reserved Comments...
1 10 2 7 0
2 15 0 15 13
4 8 4 17 9
8 7 8 34 18
16 4 0 45 8
32 -- -- -- --
64 1 0 1 63 see note 1)
128 -- -- -- --
General comments:
Some of the previously reserved address blocks have already been
cut in size and reassigned or reassigned completely.
In at least 3 instances reserved blocks (up to size 8) have been
completely allocated within 9 month after the initial allocation.
We will continue to reallocate small reserved blocks from this address
range to new applications for 1 or two addresses, especially when no
growth in the networks -holding the reservation- has been seen within
a reasonable timeframe.
Note 1:
A tentative reservation was made (to be reviewed by the NCC) for a newly
built "Museum of Electronic Arts and Museum of the 3rd Millenium", in
favour of allocating a large block in the beginning that is potentially
never used.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wilfried Woeber : e-mail: Wilfried.Woeber at CC.UniVie.ac.at
Computer Center - ACOnet :
Vienna University : Tel: +43 1 4065822 355
Universitaetsstrasse 7 : Fax: +43 1 4065822 170
A-1010 Vienna, Austria, Europe : NIC: WW144
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From huber at chx400.switch.ch Fri May 13 11:10:09 1994
From: huber at chx400.switch.ch (Willi Huber)
Date: Fri, 13 May 1994 11:10:09 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Action 17.3,4: Proposal - Report format for address assignment ...\
Message-ID: <9405130910.AA16610@ncc.ripe.net>
Wilfried Woeber wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> this is the first proposal - for discussion - of a possible report
> format for the local registries. While I did not yet have a good idea
> for a simple "graphical" format, this is a format that could be used
> both internally for keeping track of allocations and could be easy to
> compare.
Here is another approach. While Wilfrieds proposal gives a lot of details about
the assigned networks, I was trying to show an overview on the status of the
assignments. The following table gives an overview of the whole address space
193.0.0.0 - 194.255.255.0.
The table shows the current contents of the RIPE database, where
. stands for an unassigned network
# * stand for assigned networks
A sequence of #### or **** is used for network ranges described with one
network entry in the RIPE database. The characters # and * are alternated
for each network entry, so that one can see the size of the ranges.
Willi Huber
SWITCH
--------------------
RIPE database version 94/05/07
193.000.000.0 ******##*#......****************................................
193.000.064.0 ................................................................
193.000.128.0 ################################################################
193.000.192.0 ###############################################################.
193.001.000.0 ........................*#######........********........########
193.001.064.0 *#..............********########................********#*******
193.001.128.0 #*#*.#...*#*....................................########********
193.001.192.0 .#*#*#*##.....*#*.#############################################.
193.002.000.0 .*#.*#*#*#*#*...................................................
193.002.064.0 #*.#*#......................*#*#..........................*#..*#
193.002.128.0 .............................*#*................................
193.002.192.0 ################*#*#***.##**##**################*.##............
193.003.000.0 .***************#########.......****#*#*###*###...**##**####....
193.003.064.0 ****************************************************************
193.003.128.0 ##..*#**#*......########........********************************
193.003.192.0 #####################*##########*****...#.**..#*#*#*#*#.****....
193.004.000.0 .#*#*#..........*#*#*#..........*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#......*#......
193.004.064.0 *#*#*#..*#*#*#*#....*#*#*#*#*...#.*#*#*#*#..*#..................
193.004.128.0 ............................*#*...#...*.#*#.*.#.*.#.*.#*#.*.#*#.
193.004.192.0 ..*#*.#...*.#*#*#*#.*.#.*.#.*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#..
193.005.000.0 .*#*#...**##****#*#*#*#*#*##*#*#****#*#*#*#*##**#*#*#*##**#.*#*#
193.005.064.0 ....**##****####*#*#*#*#********#*#*#*#*#*#*####****####*#*#*#**
193.005.128.0 ################******..####****#####...****##**##*#************
193.005.192.0 ########################********################**********#.*#*.
193.006.000.0 .#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#......*#*.....#*.....#
193.006.064.0 ********************************#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*
193.006.128.0 #*#*#*#*#*#*........############................*#*#*#..........
193.006.192.0 *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#****#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#.......*#***************.
193.007.000.0 ################################################################
193.007.064.0 ################################################################
193.007.128.0 ********************************................................
193.007.192.0 ################################********************************
193.008.000.0 .########.......*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#********######....**..#.
193.008.064.0 *#*#............*#*#....*#*#....*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#........*#*#....
193.008.128.0 *#..*#*#*#..*#*.#*..#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#...*#......*.......#*..##..
193.008.192.0 *.#*#.*#*.#...*.......#.*#..**#.*.#.*#*.#.*.#.*.#.*.#.*.#.*.#.*.
193.009.000.0 .#*#*#*#****#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*################****************
193.009.064.0 ################################################................
193.009.128.0 ********************#*#*#*#*#*..################################
193.009.192.0 ***************************************************************.
193.010.000.0 .#*#*#*#***.....###########*****#*#*#***#*#*#*#.****............
193.010.064.0 ...............#*#*#*#*#................****************.......#
193.010.128.0 ................................................................
193.010.192.0 ................................................................
193.011.000.0 ................................................................
193.011.064.0 ................................................................
193.011.128.0 ................................................................
193.011.192.0 ................................................................
193.012.000.0 .*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#.*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*###*#*#*#*###
193.012.064.0 ***************************#*#**########*#*#****####*#*#*#*#*#*#
193.012.128.0 *****###********##*#**#*####*#*#********####*#*#*#*#*#*#****#*..
193.012.192.0 ####****####**...............................................#*.
193.013.000.0 ................................################################
193.013.064.0 ................................................................
193.013.128.0 ................................................................
193.013.192.0 ................................................................
193.014.000.0 ................................................................
193.014.064.0 ................................................................
193.014.128.0 ................................................................
193.014.192.0 ................................................................
193.015.000.0 ................................................................
193.015.064.0 ................................................................
193.015.128.0 ................................................................
193.015.192.0 ................................................................
193.016.000.0 .*#*####*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*.....#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*
193.016.064.0 #*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*................#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*
193.016.128.0 #*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*................#*#*#*#*################........
193.016.192.0 ****************....#.**......#*#*#*#.**................#*##*#*.
193.017.000.0 .#*#*#*#****....#*#*#*#*#*#*####********........####....****#*..
193.017.064.0 ................####..**########*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
193.017.128.0 ******************************************..........####*.....#*
193.017.192.0 ..............................................#*........#*#*....
193.018.000.0 .###############################################################
193.018.064.0 ################################################################
193.018.128.0 ################################################################
193.018.192.0 ################################################################
193.019.000.0 ################################................................
193.019.064.0 ................................................................
193.019.128.0 ................................................................
193.019.192.0 ................................................................
193.020.000.0 ****************************************************************
193.020.064.0 ****************************************************************
193.020.128.0 ****************************************************************
193.020.192.0 ****************************************************************
193.021.000.0 ****************************************************************
193.021.064.0 ****************************************************************
193.021.128.0 ****************************************************************
193.021.192.0 ****************************************************************
193.022.000.0 .#*#*...####****####.*##****....################################
193.022.064.0 ****************................####**..###.*#*#*#*.###.********
193.022.128.0 ########*.......################****............####****########
193.022.192.0 ################################****************##..............
193.023.000.0 .*#*#*#*########****************##############*#................
193.023.064.0 ********************************################................
193.023.128.0 ****#*#*########****####****....#*#*#*#*####....****....########
193.023.192.0 ********************************......##########**#*#*#*#*#*#*#.
193.024.000.0 .*#*#*#*####*...########........****#*#*########****************
193.024.064.0 ########********########********................################
193.024.128.0 ****************************************************************
193.024.192.0 ................................................................
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194.060.192.0 ................................................................
194.061.000.0 ................................................................
194.061.064.0 ................................................................
194.061.128.0 ................................................................
194.061.192.0 ................................................................
194.062.000.0 ................................................................
194.062.064.0 ................................................................
194.062.128.0 ................................................................
194.062.192.0 ................................................................
194.063.000.0 ................................................................
194.063.064.0 ................................................................
194.063.128.0 ................................................................
194.063.192.0 ................................................................
194.064.000.0 #*#*#*#*#.......................................................
194.064.064.0 ................................................................
194.064.128.0 ................................................................
194.064.192.0 ................................................................
194.065.000.0 ****............................................................
194.065.064.0 ................................................................
194.065.128.0 ................................................................
194.065.192.0 ................................................................
194.066.000.0 #*#*#*#*####****################********************************
194.066.064.0 ################................********************************
194.066.128.0 ................................................................
194.066.192.0 ................................................................
194.067.000.0 ................................................................
194.067.064.0 ................................................................
194.067.128.0 ................................................................
194.067.192.0 ................................................................
194.068.000.0 .#*#**#*#####*#*#####*##********#*#*#...........................
194.068.064.0 ................................................................
194.068.128.0 ................................................................
194.068.192.0 ................................................................
194.069.000.0 ................................................................
194.069.064.0 ................................................................
194.069.128.0 ................................................................
194.069.192.0 ................................................................
the rest till 194.255.255.0 is all unassigned
From erik-jan.bos at SURFnet.nl Thu May 19 12:23:33 1994
From: erik-jan.bos at SURFnet.nl (Erik-Jan Bos)
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 12:23:33 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
Message-ID:
Local IRs,
I planned to attend the Local IR WG meeting at RIPE last Tuesday, but
the meeting was moved to yesterday, the same time as the Mbone WG
meeting (where I had to be for "chairing reasons"). And I forgot all
about it...
As Last Resort IR for The Netherlands I received a request for address
space (one C network) from an individual. The person requesting address
space tells me he has several machines at home able to talk IP and he
wants to interconnect them.
Since he has plans to connect his LAN at home to the Internet some day in
the future he asks for an official IP network number (which means RFC1597
is of no help in this case).
IMHO, this is a question which we will see in an increasingly frequency
in the near future. Think of what happens if IP functionality is built in
to Microsoft software...
I'd like to know whether you have received requests like this before,
and how you aproached this issue, since I think "we all" should have a
common attitude in Europe (better: world-wide) on this.
Thanks for your concern.
__
Erik-Jan.
From HANK at VM.BIU.AC.IL Thu May 19 13:36:02 1994
From: HANK at VM.BIU.AC.IL (Hank Nussbacher)
Date: Thu, 19 May 94 13:36:02 IDT
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 19 May 1994 12:23:33 +0200 from
Message-ID: <9405191049.AA06985@ncc.ripe.net>
I am very curious to see the minutes of the local-ir meeting since I was
not able to attend. When handing out IP addresses was a few a week we
all handled it on a volunteer basis and everyone was happy. Then we
formed a RIPE and everyone was asked to "fund" the registration process
of IP addresses, domain names, individual names, etc. And we all gladly
pay it. But when I recently posted in regards to our plans to charge
customers for IP address registration I got all sorts of flames. When
the number of requests will start approaching a thousand a month and the
government in your country is not willing to fund the operation of an
Internic out of the generosity of their heart, and the computing center
where you work cannot any longer dedicate you to a fulltime registar position
then something has to give.
As Eric-Jan has brought up, people will soon want home IP numbers and
I foresee the only logical solution will be to simply charge users
a small registration fee. Those that are serious about connecting up
will gladly pay $30-$50 for a class C net. Those that just want to call
up and bother you since it is a currently a free non-discriminating
service will think twice if they have to dig into their 16 year old
wallet and shell out $50.
I would like to see a European/RIPE "recommendation" for costs for:
a) IP address registration
b) domain name registration
c) routing update
Hank
From mnorris at dalkey.hea.ie Thu May 19 12:50:59 1994
From: mnorris at dalkey.hea.ie (Mike Norris)
Date: Thu, 19 May 94 11:50:59 +0100
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 19 May 94 12:23:33 +0200."
Message-ID: <9405191050.AA22906@dalkey.hea.ie>
Erik-Jan
I have heard of similar cases, usually involving
individuals or very small businesses. The potential demand
is alarming.
At a macro level, the Internet is becoming classless and
terms like "Class C" will soon be politically incorrect.
However, we're dealing with the micro level, where the
application code doesn't know about these new developments.
So the smallest unit we can assign is 8 bits of address
space. Is there any prospect that this might change?
Mike
From martijn at NL.net Thu May 19 13:13:49 1994
From: martijn at NL.net (Martijn Roos Lindgreen)
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 13:13:49 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 19 May 94 13:36:02 IDT .
<9405191049.AA06985@ncc.ripe.net>
Message-ID: <9405191113.AA04263@ntp0.NL.net>
> the number of requests will start approaching a thousand a month and the
> government in your country is not willing to fund the operation of an
> Internic out of the generosity of their heart, and the computing center
> where you work cannot any longer dedicate you to a fulltime registar position
> then something has to give.
...
> I foresee the only logical solution will be to simply charge users
> a small registration fee.
I foresee by that time the government will not have to do
anything with the IP number registration. Network providers will
be commercial and fighting for each potential customer. Cheap
or even free numbers are one way to attract customers, and a very
effective one at that.
Martijn.
From davidc at is.apnic.net Thu May 19 13:20:30 1994
From: davidc at is.apnic.net (David R Conrad)
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 20:20:30 +0900
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 19 May 1994 12:23:33 +0200."
Message-ID: <9405191120.AA01891@is.apnic.net>
If you don't mind some comments from a person a little separated from
Europe (but you did mention world-wide):
JPNIC and APNIC have recieved many requests for addresses for very
small numbers of hosts (e.g. 2 or 3). This is a result of firewalls
apparently being more popular in this region than elsewhere. In
addition, I believe there have been requests to JPNIC from individuals
for address space for similar situations as you have experienced.
The response to these requests have generally been the allocation of a
single class C network.
I personally feel it would be highly useful if sub-C allocations were
allowed from within service provider address space (only - renumbering
individual sites is obviously trivial) in order to get higher address
space utilization rates. I'm supposed to be writing a proposal for
JPNIC to address this very issue, but I seem to have lost my copious
spare time...
Cheers,
-drc
--------
>Local IRs,
>
>I planned to attend the Local IR WG meeting at RIPE last Tuesday, but
>the meeting was moved to yesterday, the same time as the Mbone WG
>meeting (where I had to be for "chairing reasons"). And I forgot all
>about it...
>
>As Last Resort IR for The Netherlands I received a request for address
>space (one C network) from an individual. The person requesting address
>space tells me he has several machines at home able to talk IP and he
>wants to interconnect them.
>
>Since he has plans to connect his LAN at home to the Internet some day in
>the future he asks for an official IP network number (which means RFC1597
>is of no help in this case).
>
>IMHO, this is a question which we will see in an increasingly frequency
>in the near future. Think of what happens if IP functionality is built in
>to Microsoft software...
>
>I'd like to know whether you have received requests like this before,
>and how you aproached this issue, since I think "we all" should have a
>common attitude in Europe (better: world-wide) on this.
>Thanks for your concern.
>
>__
>
>Erik-Jan.
From HANK at VM.BIU.AC.IL Thu May 19 14:18:11 1994
From: HANK at VM.BIU.AC.IL (Hank Nussbacher)
Date: Thu, 19 May 94 14:18:11 IDT
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 19 May 1994 13:13:49 +0200 from
Message-ID: <9405191127.AA07303@ncc.ripe.net>
On Thu, 19 May 1994 13:13:49 +0200 you said:
>
>> the number of requests will start approaching a thousand a month and the
>> government in your country is not willing to fund the operation of an
>> Internic out of the generosity of their heart, and the computing center
>> where you work cannot any longer dedicate you to a fulltime registar position
>> then something has to give.
>...
>> I foresee the only logical solution will be to simply charge users
>> a small registration fee.
>
>I foresee by that time the government will not have to do
>anything with the IP number registration. Network providers will
>be commercial and fighting for each potential customer. Cheap
>or even free numbers are one way to attract customers, and a very
>effective one at that.
>
>
>Martijn.
Yes for those customers that want to be connected *now*, yes the service
provider will provide free of charge the IP number (or at least should).
But just look at Internic and how many of the assigned IP nets are actually
connected. Many companies either have closed nets, or want IP addresses
for the networks they are building today that at some point in the distant
future they might want to connect to the global Internet.
So what happens when the 16 year kid calls up SuperInternetService Inc and
says I want an IP address? Or the telecom manager of Netwidget Inc
wants 35 class C nets for his multinational closed IP network? At some
point SuperInternetService Inc which runs on a profit basis and does
nothing for free will do the calculation of whether it is worth his
while to deal with all these "future potential" customers. The customer
when he is ready to connect will evaluate who has a cheaper rate and
a better support staff and not who gave them a free IP network 2 years
ago.
Hank
From mnorris at dalkey.hea.ie Thu May 19 13:32:41 1994
From: mnorris at dalkey.hea.ie (Mike Norris)
Date: Thu, 19 May 94 12:32:41 +0100
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 19 May 94 13:36:02 +0700."
<9405191049.AA06985@ncc.ripe.net>
Message-ID: <9405191132.AA22990@dalkey.hea.ie>
Hank
I'm just back from RIPE-18, where I scribed the Local IR
WG mtg. I'll have a draft minute on the list later today or
tomorrow. In it you'll see that the group agreed to discuss
the questions of funding of and charging by local IP registries
asap, with a view to making a recommendation. So, thanks for
getting things under way.
Mike
From GeertJan.deGroot at ripe.net Thu May 19 14:32:01 1994
From: GeertJan.deGroot at ripe.net (Geert Jan de Groot)
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 14:32:01 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 19 May 1994 12:23:33 MDT."
Message-ID: <9405191232.AA07816@ncc.ripe.net>
On Thu, 19 May 1994 12:23:33 +0200 Erik-Jan Bos wrote:
> As Last Resort IR for The Netherlands I received a request for address
> space (one C network) from an individual. The person requesting address
> space tells me he has several machines at home able to talk IP and he
> wants to interconnect them.
>
> Since he has plans to connect his LAN at home to the Internet some day in
> the future he asks for an official IP network number (which means RFC1597
> is of no help in this case).
>
> IMHO, this is a question which we will see in an increasingly frequency
> in the near future. Think of what happens if IP functionality is built in
> to Microsoft software...
>
> I'd like to know whether you have received requests like this before,
> and how you aproached this issue, since I think "we all" should have a
> common attitude in Europe (better: world-wide) on this.
A couple of random thoughts:
- If this person is who I think he is, then his current involvement
in TCP/IP is Licensed Amateur Radio related. A class A network number
(44.0.0.0) has been designated for this purpose on a worldwide scale.
They also use a distributed addressing scheme. To find out the
local IR in that case, ask the worldwide coordinator:
Brian Kantor
Please note that this organisation is very efficient in assigning
address space because they assign *one* IP address per person
in the default case (people can get more if they ask; most don't).
The AMPRnet has been using classless routing, CIDR etc for some years now.
(CB applications are *not* valid for network 44 because of strict
AUP rules as defined by the government. I know that, at least in the
Netherlands, CB persons have nicked network 27.0.0.0 for the same
application, but this number has not been assigned to them)
- If this person only has a few hosts, then it is probably a good idea to
ask him to renumber once he connects to the Internet. I don't believe
that renumbering 3 PC's would be that much of a problem.
1597 might be useful after all..
No comments on the general case of individuals asking for IP address
space. I hope that my ideas help in this specific case though.
Geert Jan
From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Thu May 19 15:09:59 1994
From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg)
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 15:09:59 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 19 May 1994 14:32:01 MDT.
<9405191232.AA07816@ncc.ripe.net>
Message-ID: <9405191309.AA01614@reif.ripe.net>
> Geert Jan de Groot writes:
> - If this person only has a few hosts, then it is probably a good idea to
> ask him to renumber once he connects to the Internet. I don't believe
> that renumbering 3 PC's would be that much of a problem.
> 1597 might be useful after all..
This sums up my personal opinion.
If they are not going to connect immediately, then let them use private
address space and renumber their 3 hosts later.
If they are going to connect immediately, let the service provider
registry assign numbers. I know of cases where they subnet part of
the SP space. Soon - when we have a classless allocation registry,
this can even be registered.
Problem solved.
No?
Daniel
From bilse at EU.net Thu May 19 15:16:54 1994
From: bilse at EU.net (Per Gregers Bilse)
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 15:16:54 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
Message-ID: <199405191316.AA29928@spades.EU.net>
Ignoring for a minute that I don't work with local-ir stuff in any
way or capacity, I find it odd the lengths ``we'' (Internet NICs,
registries, providers) go to, to help and support people and
organisations who don't want to play our game, ie connect to the
global Internet, anyway. This is even more so, given the address
space depletion (although opinions wrt this problem varies).
Individuals or micro companies who want to connect a couple of PCs
on a LAN can renumber the day they connect.
Larger companies who clearly state that they have no intention of
connecting, and want numbers for closed networks, don't need unique
numbers (this has been discussed elsewhere recently).
Medium size companies who intend to connect (later) -- no problem, of
course they can get official numbers.
But is it completely outrageous to consider unique/official IP
numbers to be the property of the global, connected Internet? And
categorically rule that they will only be issued to members of this
crowd, ie those that actually (intend to) connect?
"Intend to connect" ... A sledgehammer approach (nothing new in this,
but I think it bears repeating): Organisations get allocations as
usual, with the usual justifications for size etc. If somebody don't
use (ie connect and route) at least part of their allocation within,
say, 12 months, they have forfeited their chance. Their numbers may
be re-assigned to somebody else, who now has first call. If the
original requestor wants to connect at a later stage, they'll have to
renumber.
Considering the "interesting" future ahead of us, when IP numbers
become really scarce, I don't see any reason to dole them out
right, left and center to people who don't intend to use them.
Unless we want to start building the future market of IP numbers;
I wonder what a /16 will sell for around the turn of the century.
--
bilse +31 20 592 5109 (dir: 5110); fax +31 20 592 5163
``We used to ! but now we @'' (jensen)
From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Thu May 19 15:37:02 1994
From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg)
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 15:37:02 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 19 May 1994 15:16:54 MDT.
<199405191316.AA29928@spades.EU.net>
Message-ID: <9405191337.AA01764@reif.ripe.net>
> Per Gregers Bilse writes:
> "Intend to connect" ... A sledgehammer approach (nothing new in this,
> but I think it bears repeating): Organisations get allocations as
> usual, with the usual justifications for size etc. If somebody don't
> use (ie connect and route) at least part of their allocation within,
> say, 12 months, they have forfeited their chance. Their numbers may
> be re-assigned to somebody else, who now has first call. If the
> original requestor wants to connect at a later stage, they'll have to
> renumber.
Private interconnections between enterprises not necessarily via
the Internet also need unique numbers.
From erik-jan.bos at SURFnet.nl Thu May 19 15:57:16 1994
From: erik-jan.bos at SURFnet.nl (Erik-Jan Bos)
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 15:57:16 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 19 May 1994 15:09:59 +0200.
Message-ID:
Daniel,
> > Geert Jan de Groot writes:
>
> > - If this person only has a few hosts, then it is probably a good idea to
> > ask him to renumber once he connects to the Internet. I don't believe
> > that renumbering 3 PC's would be that much of a problem.
> > 1597 might be useful after all..
>
> This sums up my personal opinion.
Great, quite along my personal opinion, but we need a consistent
approach among all Local IRs.
> If they are not going to connect immediately, then let them use private
> address space and renumber their 3 hosts later.
>
> If they are going to connect immediately, let the service provider
> registry assign numbers.
Sure.
> I know of cases where they subnet part of
> the SP space. Soon - when we have a classless allocation registry,
> this can even be registered.
The world, now classless, might have /30s and /29s all over the place.
I do not want to think of /32s. This gives us a neat "tool" to make
sure that everybody has address space assigned to her or him that fits
the needs.
Looking into my cristal ball (sorry, I sound like somebody else :-) ),
I see a world in which the bakery on the corner of the street has a
brand new /28 assigned to his one-man company by a ISP he selected.
After a few month the guy making bread discovers there is an ISP for
the bakery branch in his city and he wants to switch over to the
bakery-ISP. This ISP welcomes his new customer with open arms and
announces this /28 to the Internet at large. Remember, this /28 is from
the first ISP in this story. Think of what this will do to the
efficiency of CIDR...
Bottom line of this story is that there needs to be a mechanism in place
that forces the bakery to renumber to a CIDR range of his new service
provider. For the bakery with a /28 this is not too complex, but what
about this large company with a /15?
__
Erik-Jan.
From mnorris at dalkey.hea.ie Thu May 19 22:24:22 1994
From: mnorris at dalkey.hea.ie (Mike Norris)
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 21:24:22 +0100
Subject: Draft minute of mtg yesterday
Message-ID: <9405192024.AA24043@dalkey.hea.ie>
D R A F T D R A F T D R A F T D R A F T D R A F T
Minute of Local IR WG Meeting at RIPE-18, May 1994
X.Y Local IR Working Group (D Karrenberg)
Chair: D Karrenberg
Scribe: M Norris
X.Y.1 Opening
An agenda circulated beforehand was agreed. The minutes of the
meeting held during RIPE-17 in January 1994 were agreed.
X.Y.2 Election of New Chairman
D Karrenberg explained why he had announced his resignation as
chairman. The efficacy of the WG might be questioned given that
the Director of the NCC presided over a group drawn from the
membership of RIPE, which set the agenda of the NCC. In addition,
the workload of the NCC was now so onerous that all other activities
had to be reviewed.
Following discussion, the meeting unanimously expressed its complete
satisfaction in the chairmanship by D Karrenberg of the Local IR
Working Group. The Group had found the close linkage with the
NCC to be of great benefit, and that this had never impeded its
work nor imposed any limitations on its freedom of action. The
meeting reluctantly accepted the resignation of the chairman.
M Norris agreed to act as chairman, with effect from the end of the
meeting.
X.Y.3 European Registry Report by the NCC
D Karrenberg reported that, from experience, it may be that enterprise
networks, such as those belonging to large multi- or trans-national
organisations, needed their own IP registries. As a rule, such
organisations did not get delegated address space. However, coordination
between local and regional registries was important.
X.Y.4 Reports of Significant Events at Local Registries
Question: In light of renumbering caused by CIDR, what should be
done with returned addresses?
It was agreed that such addresses could be returned, and welcome, to
any European IR. Such IRs would return addresses to the NCC. If
the addresses could be aggregated, they would be re-used, otherwise
they would be returned to IANA.
Question: Will someone write a paper on why it is a good idea to
return unused addresses?
Some discussion, but no takers.
It was agreed that incidents of note should be reported to the list
and to the NCC, and not reported only at WG meetings.
Incidents were reported of applications being rejected in Europe
but accepted on re-application to other regional registries. The
group expressed concern at the disparity in the criteria applied
by RIPE and InterNIC registries.
Action 18.1 D Karrenberg
Convey RIPE's concern at this disparity to the InterNIC.
X.Y.5 Standard IP Application Form
There was a discussion of multiple applications to different registries
by the same organisation, or by different components of the same
organisation. It was agreed that the standard form should be revised
to guard against such abuses. The following changes should be made:
* Indicate that any statements made in the form could be used in
consideration of future applications
* Applicants should indicate their parent organisation and its
assigned address space, if any
* Applicants to state whether they had made any applications for
IP addresses in Europe or elsewhere
Action 18.2 NCC
Draft new standard form in light of above recommendations
for discussion on the list.
X.Y.6 Default Range of AS Numbers
D Karrenberg had asked IANA for a default range of AS numbers, but this
had been refused.
[ Yves, can you please fill in the text of the point you made here? ]
[ I apologise for not minuting it properly. ]
X.Y.7 Report from Local IR Workshop
The workshop held before the start of RIPE-18 had been well attended,
numbers exceeding those who had booked and the number of lunch
equivalents.
RFC1597, concerning the allocation of private IP addresses, was noted.
Common errors with the administration of reverse DNS zones had been
summarised.
Action 18.3 NCC
Investigate monthly publication of error files on
reverse zone files, a la host count.
X.Y.8 Funding of and Charging for Local Registry Service
The meeting agreed that these were important issues and that the
group should make recommendations as soon as possible.
Action 18.4 M Norris
Initiate discussion on the list and aim to
summarise by way of a draft recommendation.
X.Y.9 Assignment Statistics
W Woeber and W Huber had suggested means of representing address
space assignment status. This would be discussed on the list.
From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Fri May 20 09:49:37 1994
From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg)
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 09:49:37 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 19 May 1994 15:57:16 MDT.
Message-ID: <9405200749.AA02245@reif.ripe.net>
> Erik-Jan Bos writes:
>
> Bottom line of this story is that there needs to be a mechanism in place
> that forces the bakery to renumber to a CIDR range of his new service
> provider.
I don;t like the use of force. Persuasion is enough.,
Charge for routing announcements and charge a premium if they are out
of block.
> For the bakery with a /28 this is not too complex, but what
> about this large company with a /15?
They are not so much of a problem after all. A large hole resembles
a big block, doesn;t it?
From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Fri May 20 09:57:15 1994
From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg)
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 09:57:15 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 19 May 1994 15:57:16 MDT.
Message-ID: <9405200757.AA02255@reif.ripe.net>
> Erik-Jan Bos writes:
> > This sums up my personal opinion.
>
> Great, quite along my personal opinion, but we need a consistent
> approach among all Local IRs.
We will write something up next week. If someone else does before
us we can use that!
My proposal would read like:
- very small enterprises (VSEs) are those <32 hosts now
- last resort registries will not assign address space to VSEs
- VSEs can use private address space (RFC1697)
- VSEs are easy to renumber once they connect
- VSEs are likely to connect with one host only
- service provider registries will assign VSEs smaller amounts
of address space than 8 bits where possible
- service provider registries will register these smaller amounts
in the RIPE database when possible
Rationale:
Very many VSEs with 8 bits of address space each will use up
too much address space.
Is this acceptable to all?
Implementation: If this was accepted the NCC could accept classles
inetnums very soon even before the indexing is fully classless.
Question: Should we publish such things as RIPE documents or just
circulate them among registries as "current practise recommendations".
I personally think we should publish them, but have heared reservations.
Daniel
From nipper at xlink.net Fri May 20 10:19:13 1994
From: nipper at xlink.net (Arnold Nipper)
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 10:19:13 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: <9405200757.AA02255@reif.ripe.net> from "Daniel Karrenberg" at May 20, 94 09:57:15 am
Message-ID:
Daniel Karrenberg wrote:
>
>
> My proposal would read like:
>
> - very small enterprises (VSEs) are those <32 hosts now
>
> - last resort registries will not assign address space to VSEs
>
> - VSEs can use private address space (RFC1697)
> - VSEs are easy to renumber once they connect
> - VSEs are likely to connect with one host only
>
> - service provider registries will assign VSEs smaller amounts
> of address space than 8 bits where possible
>
> - service provider registries will register these smaller amounts
> in the RIPE database when possible
>
> Rationale:
>
> Very many VSEs with 8 bits of address space each will use up
> too much address space.
>
>
>
> Is this acceptable to all?
>
Fully agree
> Implementation: If this was accepted the NCC could accept classles
> inetnums very soon even before the indexing is fully classless.
>
> Question: Should we publish such things as RIPE documents or just
> circulate them among registries as "current practise recommendations".
> I personally think we should publish them, but have heared reservations.
>
> Daniel
>
--
Arnold Nipper / email: nipper at xlink.net
NTG Netzwerk und Telematic GmbH \/ phone: +49 721 9652 0
Geschaeftsbereich XLINK /\ LINK fax: +49 721 9652 210
Vincenz-Priessnitz-Str. 3 /_______
D-76131 Karlsruhe, Germany
From Stephan.Biesbroeck at belnet.be Fri May 20 10:31:28 1994
From: Stephan.Biesbroeck at belnet.be (Stephan.Biesbroeck at belnet.be)
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 10:31:28 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: <9405200757.AA02255@reif.ripe.net> from "Daniel Karrenberg" at May 20, 94 09:57:15 am
Message-ID: <9405200831.AA10981@mahler.belnet.be>
Daniel Karrenberg wrote :
>
>
> We will write something up next week. If someone else does before
> us we can use that!
>
> My proposal would read like:
>
> - very small enterprises (VSEs) are those <32 hosts now
>
> - last resort registries will not assign address space to VSEs
>
> - VSEs can use private address space (RFC1697)
> - VSEs are easy to renumber once they connect
> - VSEs are likely to connect with one host only
>
> - service provider registries will assign VSEs smaller amounts
> of address space than 8 bits where possible
>
> - service provider registries will register these smaller amounts
> in the RIPE database when possible
>
> Rationale:
>
> Very many VSEs with 8 bits of address space each will use up
> too much address space.
>
>
>
> Is this acceptable to all?
YES
>
> Implementation: If this was accepted the NCC could accept classles
> inetnums very soon even before the indexing is fully classless.
>
> Question: Should we publish such things as RIPE documents or just
> circulate them among registries as "current practise recommendations".
> I personally think we should publish them, but have heared reservations.
I am in favour of publication because it is then clear that it is a general
policy, and not just a register who want to give a hard time to a VSE...
>
> Daniel
>
Stephan
>
--
Stephan Biesbroeck Tel: +32(0)2-2383470
stephan at belnet.be Fax: +32(0)2-2315131
Service Support Team of the Belgian National Research Network, BELNET
From Dave.Morton at ecrc.de Fri May 20 10:50:10 1994
From: Dave.Morton at ecrc.de (Dave Morton)
Date: Fri, 20 May 94 10:50:10 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
Message-ID: <9405200850.AA10326@acrab25.ecrc>
Fully agree with Hank here - we are seeing the same problems
in Germany as someone somewhere has to finance all this. Either
the service providers do one stop shopping at the local IR
and/or TLD-NIC and/or we charge or rent ip numbers and domain
name space etc. to induviduals. No other way to go in the long term.
Same applies to RIPE but me and Daniel have had our arguments
about this in the past offline. Thats another story.
Dave
From mark at demon.co.uk Fri May 20 12:08:42 1994
From: mark at demon.co.uk (mark at demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 11:08:42 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: <9405200757.AA02255@reif.ripe.net> from "Daniel Karrenberg" at May 20, 94 09:57:15 am
Message-ID: <9405201108.aa12944@demon.demon.co.uk>
According to Daniel Karrenberg....
>
> My proposal would read like:
>
> - very small enterprises (VSEs) are those <32 hosts now
>
> - last resort registries will not assign address space to VSEs
>
> - VSEs can use private address space (RFC1697)
> - VSEs are easy to renumber once they connect
> - VSEs are likely to connect with one host only
>
> - service provider registries will assign VSEs smaller amounts
> of address space than 8 bits where possible
>
> - service provider registries will register these smaller amounts
> in the RIPE database when possible
>
> Rationale:
>
> Very many VSEs with 8 bits of address space each will use up
> too much address space.
>
>
>
> Is this acceptable to all?
Sounds very sensible. Demon would be happy to follow these guidelines.
Regards,
Mark.
--
/\/\ark Turner Demon Systems / Demon Internet
Home: mt at kram.org (PGP key available) 42 Hendon Lane, London
Office: mark at demon.net (+44 81 3490063) N3 1TT, England
*** IP level dialup Internet connectivity for a tenner a month! ***
PGP server: email to pgp-public-keys at demon.co.uk with subject 'help'
From Dave.Morton at ecrc.de Fri May 20 13:48:39 1994
From: Dave.Morton at ecrc.de (Dave Morton)
Date: Fri, 20 May 94 13:48:39 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
Message-ID: <9405201148.AA10729@acrab25.ecrc>
> > Erik-Jan Bos writes:
> > > This sums up my personal opinion.
> >
> > Great, quite along my personal opinion, but we need a consistent
> > approach among all Local IRs.
>
>We will write something up next week. If someone else does before
>us we can use that!
>
>My proposal would read like:
>
> - very small enterprises (VSEs) are those <32 hosts now
>
> - last resort registries will not assign address space to VSEs
>
> - VSEs can use private address space (RFC1697)
> - VSEs are easy to renumber once they connect
> - VSEs are likely to connect with one host only
>
> - service provider registries will assign VSEs smaller amounts
> of address space than 8 bits where possible
>
> - service provider registries will register these smaller amounts
> in the RIPE database when possible
>
>Rationale:
>
> Very many VSEs with 8 bits of address space each will use up
> too much address space.
>
>
>
>Is this acceptable to all?
YEP.
>
>Implementation: If this was accepted the NCC could accept classles
>inetnums very soon even before the indexing is fully classless.
>
>Question: Should we publish such things as RIPE documents or just
>circulate them among registries as "current practise recommendations".
>I personally think we should publish them, but have heared reservations.
Publish.
>Daniel
Dave
From poole at eunet.ch Fri May 20 14:10:56 1994
From: poole at eunet.ch (poole at eunet.ch)
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 14:10:56 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: <9405200757.AA02255@reif.ripe.net> from "Daniel Karrenberg" at May 20, 94 09:57:15 am
Message-ID: <199405201210.OAA29881@eunet.ch>
I beg to differ with most of the opinions voiced up to now. I have
big problems with Ripe rushing off and changing the rules yet another
time with -no- convincing arguments and analysis that any significant
problem will be solved by this change of policy.
Before I would agree to a formal "sub-class C" allocation policy,
I would like to see:
- a study on how much address space will be actually saved
by this change. Taking into account:
- current available services from ISP's. For example
a large number of ISP's already have "single address"
dialup IP services where address are allocated out
of ISP network numbers.
- granularity of allocation.
- loss of efficency due to the fact that most ISP's
do not use CIDR capable routing protocols internally.
- projected demand for address space for less than
32 hosts. This will require statistical information
on company size etc. (I don't think the odd hobbyist
with more than one machine is of such great concern.)
- disussion of alternatives (new classes of Internet numbers
etc.) and why they do not solve the problem.
- a discussion on the operational pro's and con's on such an
allocation policy, including administration.
- a "rough consenus" between all parties that this is a good idea,
this would at least include the IETF and commercial representatives
of all major ISP's. As pointed out in the minutes of the local-ir
meeting, there are already substantial differences in allocation
policy between the European IR's and others, we cannot afford
to embark on yet another Europe-only crusade.
Simon
From Bjorn.Eriksen at sunet.se Fri May 20 14:19:23 1994
From: Bjorn.Eriksen at sunet.se (Bjorn Eriksen)
Date: Fri, 20 May 94 14:19:23 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
Message-ID: <199405201219.OAA09310@sunic.sunet.se>
>My proposal would read like:
>....
>Is this acceptable to all?
yes, and publish.
--Bjorn
From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Fri May 20 15:28:53 1994
From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg)
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 15:28:53 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 20 May 1994 14:10:56 MDT.
<199405201210.OAA29881@eunet.ch>
Message-ID: <9405201328.AA03305@reif.ripe.net>
> poole at eunet.ch writes:
>
> I beg to differ with most of the opinions voiced up to now. I have
> big problems with Ripe rushing off and changing the rules yet another
> time with -no- convincing arguments and analysis that any significant
> problem will be solved by this change of policy.
Can you please point to other needless and unmotivated changes?
Otherwise I will regard this paragraph as noise.
> Before I would agree to a formal "sub-class C" allocation policy,
> I would like to see:
>
> - a study on how much address space will be actually saved
> by this change.
If any address space can be saved and there are no ill effects this is
not really a necessity.
>Taking into account:
>
> - current available services from ISP's. For example
> a large number of ISP's already have "single address"
> dialup IP services where address are allocated out
> of ISP network numbers.
This is just a special case of doing what the proposal says.
> - granularity of allocation.
I don't understand what you mean exactly. Currently noone can assign
anything smaller than 8 bits.
> - loss of efficency due to the fact that most ISP's
> do not use CIDR capable routing protocols internally.
If it cannot be done it cannot be done. If it can be done it should be
done. I do not understand what "loss of efficiency" means. If it is
too ineficcient for whatever reason (which you do not discuss) then it
cannot be done. The proposal just says that "last-resort" IRs will not
assign address space and ISPs should do their best. Some will do better
and some will do badly.
> - projected demand for address space for less than
> 32 hosts. This will require statistical information
> on company size etc.
This is shooting a fly with a 122mm gun.
Projections can also be called "wild guesses". Any reliable projections
in a fast developing market as ours are bound to be either very
inaccurate or very short term. Several last-resort registries have
experienced demands from individual users and/or very small companies.
This is projection enough for me.
> (I don't think the odd hobbyist
> with more than one machine is of such great concern.)
Your personal projection.
I for one am quite sure that this case and the case of very small
enterprises is all but odd. I see such requests daily and I am sure we
see only a fraction of them at the NCC. Other evidence: the discussion
about domain names for individuals. If there are only 1024 of these
requests (very low estimate) to all EU last-resort registries in the
next 12 months we can either assign them 18 bits of address space (4Bs
or 1024Cs for old-timers) or nothing.
> - disussion of alternatives (new classes of Internet numbers
> etc.) and why they do not solve the problem.
If you want to discuss an alternative, propose one.
(BTW: the IPv4 Internet is going classless. A new "class" is going
backwards.)
> - a discussion on the operational pro's and con's on such an
> allocation policy, including administration.
Of course a wirtten up proposal will discuss some of this. But we are
just in the stage of discussion. Name a few cons.
> - a "rough consenus" between all parties that this is a good idea,
> this would at least include the IETF,
IETF is for engineering. If you insist I can raise the issue in the IETF
cidrd group. I don't quite see the point though.
> and commercial representatives
> of all major ISP's.
That is what we have RIPE for and in this case the local-ir WG. If your
representatives there are not commercial enough, you have an internal
communication problem.
The differences in allocation policies between regional registries are being
addressed and not part of this discussion.
Daniel
From poole at eunet.ch Fri May 20 16:05:45 1994
From: poole at eunet.ch (poole at eunet.ch)
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 16:05:45 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: <9405201328.AA03305@reif.ripe.net> from "Daniel Karrenberg" at May 20, 94 03:28:53 pm
Message-ID: <199405201405.QAA00912@eunet.ch>
> > poole at eunet.ch writes:
> >
> > I beg to differ with most of the opinions voiced up to now. I have
> > big problems with Ripe rushing off and changing the rules yet another
> > time with -no- convincing arguments and analysis that any significant
> > problem will be solved by this change of policy.
>
> Can you please point to other needless and unmotivated changes?
> Otherwise I will regard this paragraph as noise.
I didn't say that changes up to now have been unmotivated, however one
of the the problems of local-ir's are that the criteria for address
allocation in Europe have been continuosly changing and that this causes
a significant ammount of pain every time.
> > Before I would agree to a formal "sub-class C" allocation policy,
> > I would like to see:
> >
> > - a study on how much address space will be actually saved
> > by this change.
>
> If any address space can be saved and there are no ill effects this is
> not really a necessity.
Life tends not to be so simple, any such decision is a trade off between
positive and negative affects. I would be quite willing to accept a
significant burden for an order of magnitude gain in address space usage
but not for a factor of two. To be able to make a sensible decision we
do need the information.
> >Taking into account:
> >
> > - current available services from ISP's. For example
> > a large number of ISP's already have "single address"
> > dialup IP services where address are allocated out
> > of ISP network numbers.
>
> This is just a special case of doing what the proposal says.
Yes, however this might -already- cover the major part of what this
policy wants to regulate.
> > - granularity of allocation.
>
> I don't understand what you mean exactly. Currently noone can assign
> anything smaller than 8 bits.
The efficiency of any "sub-class C" allocation policy will depend on
what the recommend "chunk" size is and how that plays into the technical
realisation (routing etc.).
> > - loss of efficency due to the fact that most ISP's
> > do not use CIDR capable routing protocols internally.
>
> If it cannot be done it cannot be done. If it can be done it should be
> done. I do not understand what "loss of efficiency" means.
If the ISP equipment is not CIDR aware, then the ISP will have no
other choice than to allocate complete classful addresses to whatever
it uses as routing equipment (support for variable length subnets
plays in to this aswell).
If it is
> too ineficcient for whatever reason (which you do not discuss) then it
> cannot be done. The proposal just says that "last-resort" IRs will not
> assign address space and ISPs should do their best. Some will do better
> and some will do badly.
There are two different issues here:
- last-resort IR's will not allocate address space for VSE's, I
don't have any problems with this as long as it is coordinated
internationally and not an Europe only decision.
- allocation of address space for actually Internet connected
entities.
>
> > - projected demand for address space for less than
> > 32 hosts. This will require statistical information
> > on company size etc.
>
> This is shooting a fly with a 122mm gun.
>
> Projections can also be called "wild guesses". Any reliable projections
> in a fast developing market as ours are bound to be either very
> inaccurate or very short term. Several last-resort registries have
> experienced demands from individual users and/or very small companies.
> This is projection enough for me.
The numbers of companies per country and their sizes has nothing to do
with the Internet per se. The assumptions can be made when we discuss
how many will actually connect.
> > (I don't think the odd hobbyist
> > with more than one machine is of such great concern.)
>
> Your personal projection.
>
> I for one am quite sure that this case and the case of very small
> enterprises is all but odd. I see such requests daily and I am sure we
> see only a fraction of them at the NCC. Other evidence: the discussion
> about domain names for individuals. If there are only 1024 of these
> requests (very low estimate) to all EU last-resort registries in the
> next 12 months we can either assign them 18 bits of address space (4Bs
> or 1024Cs for old-timers) or nothing.
As said above very likely such indvidual sites are already covered by
single address allocations by ISP's.
>
> > - disussion of alternatives (new classes of Internet numbers
> > etc.) and why they do not solve the problem.
>
> If you want to discuss an alternative, propose one.
>
> (BTW: the IPv4 Internet is going classless. A new "class" is going
> backwards.)
The IPv4 Internet is going classless at the ISP interconnect level,
assuming anything else right now is very speculative.
Simon
From mnorris at dalkey.hea.ie Fri May 20 16:55:08 1994
From: mnorris at dalkey.hea.ie (Mike Norris)
Date: Fri, 20 May 94 15:55:08 +0100
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 20 May 94 09:57:15 +0200."
<9405200757.AA02255@reif.ripe.net>
Message-ID: <9405201455.AA27824@dalkey.hea.ie>
On Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 09:57:15 +0200 Daniel Karrenberg said:
>My proposal would read like:
>
> - very small enterprises (VSEs) are those <32 hosts now
>
The number may be even smaller. I can't remember what the
commonly accepted figure is for the number of staff in a VSE,
but SMEs (small-to-medium enterprised) usually range from 10
to 100 employees. I would say that anything with >16 hosts now
is really an SME, not a VSE.
> - last resort registries will not assign address space to VSEs
>
> - VSEs can use private address space (RFC1697)
> - VSEs are easy to renumber once they connect
> - VSEs are likely to connect with one host only
>
> - service provider registries will assign VSEs smaller amounts
> of address space than 8 bits where possible
>
> - service provider registries will register these smaller amounts
> in the RIPE database when possible
>
>Rationale:
>
> Very many VSEs with 8 bits of address space each will use up
> too much address space.
>
>
>
>Is this acceptable to all?
>
Yes.
>Implementation: If this was accepted the NCC could accept classles
>inetnums very soon even before the indexing is fully classless.
>
>Question: Should we publish such things as RIPE documents or just
>circulate them among registries as "current practise recommendations".
>I personally think we should publish them, but have heared reservations.
>
RIPE documents are normally recommendations anyway, but derive a
lot of their benefit from being public. I say publish (and be
praised ;-)
>Daniel
Mike
From robert at dknet.dk Fri May 20 17:37:19 1994
From: robert at dknet.dk (Robert Martin-Legene)
Date: Fri, 20 May 94 17:37:19 MET DST
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: <9405200757.AA02255@reif.ripe.net>; from "Daniel Karrenberg" at May 20, 94 9:57 am
Message-ID: <199405201537.AA20105@dkuug.dk>
Daniel Karrenberg wrote:
>
>My proposal would read like:
>
> - VSEs can use private address space (RFC1697)
RFC1597 I suspect.
>Is this acceptable to all?
Sounds fair to me. Although I foresee internal routing problems here.
I suspect they can be solved with routing entries for each individual
host (?).
The local routing table would become quite big, but that is not so
much of concern (yet? :-)) With time CIDR-aware software will be
available.
-- Robert Martin-Legene, = EUnet Denmark =
DKnet, Fruebjergvej 3, DK-2100 Kobenhavn O, +45 39 17 99 00
From woeber at cc.univie.ac.at Fri May 20 18:10:43 1994
From: woeber at cc.univie.ac.at (Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet)
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 17:10:43 +0100
Subject: Address space for individuals
Message-ID: <0097EB8B.A2200CE0.4682@cc.univie.ac.at>
Hank,
>pay it. But when I recently posted in regards to our plans to charge
>customers for IP address registration I got all sorts of flames. When
while I don't want to join in flaming, I see some good reasons for
people running a registry *now* for frowning at the financial
procedures proposed or even applied unilaterally be some (only a very
few?) Last Resort Registries.
I'm definitely feeling worried when a Last-Resort-Registry, run by a
Service Provider *upon it's own voluntary decision* starts charging for
allocating addresses. I wonder whether there isn't some incentive (at
least conceavably :-) to be quite generous...
At the same time, running a Service-Provider Registry for an academic
community, we are not able to suggest to our clientele that we are
providing them withg a service that has a financial value after all...
So, I'd really like to see this sorted out soon!
And anything that is agreed on should equally fit the commercial ISP
registries as well as the "not for profit" ones.
Wilfried.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wilfried Woeber : e-mail: Wilfried.Woeber at CC.UniVie.ac.at
Computer Center - ACOnet :
Vienna University : Tel: +43 1 4065822 355
Universitaetsstrasse 7 : Fax: +43 1 4065822 170
A-1010 Vienna, Austria, Europe : NIC: WW144
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From woeber at cc.univie.ac.at Fri May 20 17:56:57 1994
From: woeber at cc.univie.ac.at (Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet)
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 16:56:57 +0100
Subject: Address space for individuals
Message-ID: <0097EB89.B64919C0.4675@cc.univie.ac.at>
Hi Daniel,
= > Erik-Jan Bos writes:
= > > This sums up my personal opinion.
= >
= > Great, quite along my personal opinion, but we need a consistent
= > approach among all Local IRs.
=
=We will write something up next week. If someone else does before
=us we can use that!
=
=My proposal would read like:
=
= - very small enterprises (VSEs) are those <32 hosts now
Just to make sure that we think along the same lines: I'd strongly
favour an approach where there is NO difference being made between
private ("for personal use") and corporate/commercial applications...
= - last resort registries will not assign address space to VSEs
=
= - VSEs can use private address space (RFC1697)
= - VSEs are easy to renumber once they connect
= - VSEs are likely to connect with one host only
=
= - service provider registries will assign VSEs smaller amounts
= of address space than 8 bits where possible
=
= - service provider registries will register these smaller amounts
= in the RIPE database when possible
=
=Rationale:
=
= Very many VSEs with 8 bits of address space each will use up
= too much address space.
=
=
=
=Is this acceptable to all?
=
Good for me.
=Implementation: If this was accepted the NCC could accept classles
=inetnums very soon even before the indexing is fully classless.
=
=Question: Should we publish such things as RIPE documents or just
=circulate them among registries as "current practise recommendations".
=I personally think we should publish them, but have heared reservations.
From the point of "open-ness" and information dissemination I'd agree
to publish this, however, we have to aware of that these documents tend
to float around for a long time, even after some cicles of update.
BUT, if we start to publish the address assignment rules, any such
document proposed IMHO has to cover many more aspects, for instance any
financial implications we might come up with....
Wilfried.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wilfried Woeber : e-mail: Wilfried.Woeber at CC.UniVie.ac.at
Computer Center - ACOnet :
Vienna University : Tel: +43 1 4065822 355
Universitaetsstrasse 7 : Fax: +43 1 4065822 170
A-1010 Vienna, Austria, Europe : NIC: WW144
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Fri May 20 18:13:03 1994
From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg)
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 18:13:03 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 20 May 1994 16:56:57 BST.
<0097EB89.B64919C0.4675@cc.univie.ac.at>
Message-ID: <9405201613.AA03723@reif.ripe.net>
> "Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet" writes:
>
> Just to make sure that we think along the same lines: I'd strongly
> favour an approach where there is NO difference being made between
> private ("for personal use") and corporate/commercial applications...
We are in violent agreement.
> From the point of "open-ness" and information dissemination I'd agree
> to publish this, however, we have to aware of that these documents tend
> to float around for a long time, even after some cicles of update.
Fact of life. But if we publish them as ripe docuemnts there is always
a way to find the most recent.
> BUT, if we start to publish the address assignment rules, any such
> document proposed IMHO has to cover many more aspects, for instance any
> financial implications we might come up with....
I am in favour of publishing small docuemnts dealing with a single
aspect rather than the big and complete one which will never get done.
From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Fri May 20 18:18:03 1994
From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg)
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 18:18:03 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 20 May 1994 17:37:19 +0700.
<199405201537.AA20105@dkuug.dk>
Message-ID: <9405201618.AA03740@reif.ripe.net>
> Robert Martin-Legene writes:
> Daniel Karrenberg wrote:
> >
> >My proposal would read like:
> >
> > - VSEs can use private address space (RFC1697)
>
> RFC1597 I suspect.
Just a test whether people read it.
> Sounds fair to me. Although I foresee internal routing problems here.
> I suspect they can be solved with routing entries for each individual
> host (?).
> The local routing table would become quite big, but that is not so
> much of concern (yet? :-)) With time CIDR-aware software will be
> available.
What you can do internally depends on the technology you use.
I would suspect that you can subnet in your POPs so that customers
connected to the same POP can share Cs. If you can't do that
the story ends and you have to give customers Cs. But that is only
for those who connect eventually and not for everyone who asks
a last-resort registry.
Daniel
From bob at informatics.rutherford.ac.uk Fri May 20 17:32:13 1994
From: bob at informatics.rutherford.ac.uk (bob at informatics.rutherford.ac.uk)
Date: Fri, 20 May 94 17:32:13 BST
Subject: Address space for individuals
Message-ID: <9405201632.AA09151@buche>
> while I don't want to join in flaming, I see some good reasons for
> people running a registry *now* for frowning at the financial
> procedures proposed or even applied unilaterally be some (only a very
> few?) Last Resort Registries.
I tend to agree with Wilfried. JANET originally offered to run the UK
Last Resort registry because, as the national adademic & reserach network,
we believed that it was in the interest of UK (and European) networking
that someone undertook the job. We still feel this way, but it has to
be said that its a lot of work, that it's not possible to justify to
our funders that much effort is expended on this activity, and consequently
that sometimes we find it difficult to provide the service level that
we would like in terms of turnaround of requests, provision of advice etc.
As things will get worse in this respect (as IP becomes more widespread),
something will have to be done. Charging isn't necessarily bad -- it
allows the service to be put on a proper, stable basis and most companies
have no difficulty in understanding the concept of paying a small admin.
fee for registration. However, I'd feel unhappy with unilateral action
by individual registries -- there should be general agreement on the
necessity. We'd probably give up running the UK Last Resort registry,
rather than charge unilaterally, if it came to the point that we could no
longer cope with current effort levels.
So (although I didn't make the last RIPE IR group meeting, unfortunately)
I'd support some serious discussion of this topic, to reach a consensus.
One point I'd suggest though -- I don't believe it would be realistic
to expect a uniform charge across Europe. As with everything else in life,
costs will vary from country to country. One discussion point will be
whether one wants the idea of free competition across Europe, with
customers "shopping around" (the Maastricht ideal, I suppose), or a
situation where customers aren't "allowed" to apply in other than
their own country (ie regulation, or a cartel, depending on your view.)
If the latter then there's an interesting consequence of what to do
if a one country's Last Resort Registry starts charging unreasonably
high prices ... this is a problem that hasn't been solved yet in the
well known area of line provision!
Could be an interesting discussion....
Bob Day
From poole at eunet.ch Sat May 21 11:27:51 1994
From: poole at eunet.ch (poole at eunet.ch)
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 11:27:51 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: <199405201537.AA20105@dkuug.dk> from "Robert Martin-Legene" at May 20, 94 05:37:19 pm
Message-ID: <199405210927.LAA16694@eunet.ch>
>
> Sounds fair to me. Although I foresee internal routing problems here.
> I suspect they can be solved with routing entries for each individual
> host (?).
> The local routing table would become quite big, but that is not so
> much of concern (yet? :-)) With time CIDR-aware software will be
> available.
>
Assuming we have CIDR-aware software, why should we use the class C
address space for these small allocations? Wouldn't it be better to
split up one class A (this would allow 4 million allocations of a 3 bit
net)?
My main problem with supporting "sub-class C" allocations is that
the local-IR's don't operate in a vaccum. There's a whole system
of:
- computer manufactureres
- networking equipment companies
- consultants
- literature
that can't be ignored. My experience shows that address allocation
works best when the applicant already knows what to expect. Since
the above "information system" has barely caught up with subnetting
and maybe a bit of CIDR, it's suicidal to change yet another aspect
of allocation policy essentially in secret.
If we go for some kind of CIDR'zed allocation of small nets, the
policy should:
- use a clearly identifiable address range (not the current
class C's).
- be widely published (make it a big event).
Simon
From woeber at cc.univie.ac.at Sat May 21 19:27:35 1994
From: woeber at cc.univie.ac.at (Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet)
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 18:27:35 +0100
Subject: Address space for individuals
Message-ID: <0097EC5F.894ECC40.4763@cc.univie.ac.at>
>My main problem with supporting "sub-class C" allocations is that
>the local-IR's don't operate in a vaccum. There's a whole system
>of:
>
> - computer manufactureres
>
> - networking equipment companies
>
> - consultants
>
> - literature
From my experience the biggest challenges should be expected from
categigory 3 and (to some extent, but considerably less) from
category 4.
Wilfried.
From poole at eunet.ch Sat May 21 19:10:28 1994
From: poole at eunet.ch (poole at eunet.ch)
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 19:10:28 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: <0097EC5F.894ECC40.4763@cc.univie.ac.at> from "Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet" at May 21, 94 06:27:35 pm
Message-ID: <199405211710.TAA19485@eunet.ch>
>
> >My main problem with supporting "sub-class C" allocations is that
> >the local-IR's don't operate in a vaccum. There's a whole system
> >of:
> >
> > - computer manufactureres
> >
> > - networking equipment companies
> >
> > - consultants
> >
> > - literature
>
> From my experience the biggest challenges should be expected from
> categigory 3 and (to some extent, but considerably less) from
> category 4.
I would you categorize you as very optimistic :-), a large number of
category one organisations don't even know that it's possible to
subnet class C addresses.
Simon
From GeertJan.deGroot at ripe.net Sun May 22 02:29:07 1994
From: GeertJan.deGroot at ripe.net (Geert Jan de Groot)
Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 02:29:07 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 21 May 1994 11:27:51 MDT."
<199405210927.LAA16694@eunet.ch>
Message-ID: <9405220029.AA20659@belegen.ripe.net>
On Sat, 21 May 1994 11:27:51 +0200 (MET DST) poole at eunet.ch wrote:
> Assuming we have CIDR-aware software, why should we use the class C
> address space for these small allocations? Wouldn't it be better to
> split up one class A (this would allow 4 million allocations of a 3 bit
> net)?
I see no reason why those VSE's cannot have address space from your
current provider block. Instead of:
193.0.0.0/24 machine-100 company
193.0.1.0/24 machine-10 company
193.0.2.0/24 machine-10 company
193.0.3.0/24 machine-10 company
193.0.4.0/24 machine-10 company
193.0.5.0/24 machine-4 company
you would get something like this:
193.0.0.0/24 machine-100 company
193.0.1.0/28 machine-10 company
193.0.1.16/28 machine-10 company
193.0.1.32/28 machine-10 company
193.0.1.48/28 machine-10 company
193.0.1.64/28 machine-4 company
... and use less than 2 C's instead of 6!
I have seen this work at an ISP here on campus who uses a terminal server
(which covers only one C or so) to connect to many customers who use
leased lines.
Chopping up a class A for this purpose means that each chunk (which then
would be at a different ISP each) needs to be announced separately, which
would break CIDR at large.
Why do you want to use separate address space for that?
(Intermezzo: you do bring up an interesting subject though - once we
run out of the class C address space, we will probably need to chop
up blocks of networks from a class A network just we have done now
with 193.0.0.0/8 and 194.0.0.0/8. I hope that all equipment that
routes to external networks is either classless or knows how to handle
disjunct 'subnets' with different subnet masks correctly...)
My personal interpretation of this all is that there are many l-IR's
who agree that assigning a unique class C to each unconnected network
of two PC's is a bad thing. If they don't connect, private address space
is fine; once they connect, renumbering to fit in a ISP CIDR block
is easy if you have just a few machines and not renumbering would
cause the major routing table explosion which we all fear.
Playing around with this leads to a few more interesting ideas. These
are personal; butcher them down if you don't like them:
- Maybe we should make a point that people who want address space
'so they can connect later' to ask them to make a choice of ISP
first and only THEN get address space (from the provider registry,
that is). If they have a small network, say up to 100 hosts or so,
having them use private address space and renumber once they connect
should not be so bad.
- This would point more work to ISP-registries instead of the L-R registry.
This brings down the work on the L-R registries (who do this for free,
after all), and brings these costs to ISP registries (who might see this
as 'customer service' and thus have justification why their IR-activities
cost effort and money)
- It makes CIDR work better!
> My main problem with supporting "sub-class C" allocations is that
> the local-IR's don't operate in a vaccum. There's a whole system
> of:
>
> - computer manufactureres
>
> - networking equipment companies
>
> - consultants
>
> - literature
>
> that can't be ignored. My experience shows that address allocation
> works best when the applicant already knows what to expect. Since
> the above "information system" has barely caught up with subnetting
> and maybe a bit of CIDR, it's suicidal to change yet another aspect
> of allocation policy essentially in secret.
A large amount of the entities listed above doesn't even know about
Internet commodities like DNS and security. This is, IMHO, an area
of added value of the ISP. How many times did you have to explain
about changing a network from using hosts files or Yellow Plague to DNS,
and tell people how to close their network for external access?
In the cases I have seen, the ISP is, apart from moving bits around,
also the 'interface' to the Internet: providing consultancy, first
contact point in case of connectivity problems, knowing where and
how to file domain information, NACR's and the like. Assigning
sub-class C's could be part of that. No customer-equipment
changes are neccessary!
I think assigning arbitrary size of network space instead of binary
multiples of class C's is simply part of the evolution the Internet
is going though.
Geert Jan
From HANK at VM.BIU.AC.IL Sun May 22 11:27:10 1994
From: HANK at VM.BIU.AC.IL (Hank Nussbacher)
Date: Sun, 22 May 94 11:27:10 IDT
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 20 May 1994 17:10:43 +0100 from
Message-ID: <9405220838.AA20014@ncc.ripe.net>
On Fri, 20 May 1994 17:10:43 +0100 you said:
> while I don't want to join in flaming, I see some good reasons for
> people running a registry *now* for frowning at the financial
> procedures proposed or even applied unilaterally be some (only a very
> few?) Last Resort Registries.
>
> I'm definitely feeling worried when a Last-Resort-Registry, run by a
> Service Provider *upon it's own voluntary decision* starts charging for
> allocating addresses. I wonder whether there isn't some incentive (at
> least conceavably :-) to be quite generous...
We told the IL commerical service providers that we may charge in the future.
Each said that they could do it for free. We said great. Let us know
when you are ready and we will *gladly* transfer over all co.il
responsibility. Two weeks later we heard from them that when they sat down
and figured in the machine cycles and the manpower that they couldn't
do the service for free as they had thought initially but would have to
charge for it.
We still provide the service free of charge. We would like to conform
(or in ISOish - harmonize) to whatever the overall majority feels should
be done. If everyone in Europe says "do it free since that is the way
it should be", we will do it for free. But in all fairness, if that
is the decision to be made then I would like to see a table of all RIPE
countries that provide free registry services with who provides the
funding:
a) government funded registry
b) university funded registry
c) country Internet consortium funded registry
d) other
Do people feel that such a table would be worthwhile to determine who
is currently funding registry services in Europe today?
Hank
From HANK at VM.BIU.AC.IL Sun May 22 11:38:48 1994
From: HANK at VM.BIU.AC.IL (Hank Nussbacher)
Date: Sun, 22 May 94 11:38:48 IDT
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 20 May 94 17:32:13 BST from
Message-ID: <9405220843.AA20037@ncc.ripe.net>
On Fri, 20 May 94 17:32:13 BST you said:
>One point I'd suggest though -- I don't believe it would be realistic
>to expect a uniform charge across Europe. As with everything else in life,
>costs will vary from country to country. One discussion point will be
>whether one wants the idea of free competition across Europe, with
>customers "shopping around" (the Maastricht ideal, I suppose), or a
>situation where customers aren't "allowed" to apply in other than
>their own country (ie regulation, or a cartel, depending on your view.)
>If the latter then there's an interesting consequence of what to do
>if a one country's Last Resort Registry starts charging unreasonably
>high prices ... this is a problem that hasn't been solved yet in the
>well known area of line provision!
Imagine the havoc it would play on CIDR if everyone shopped around
to save a few ECUs on an IP address. RIPE could come out with
a recommendation range, i.e. $10-$30 per class C.
>
>Could be an interesting discussion....
>
>Bob Day
Hank Nussbacher
From pete at eunet.fi Sun May 22 11:37:25 1994
From: pete at eunet.fi (Petri Helenius)
Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 12:37:25 +0300
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: <9405220029.AA20659@belegen.ripe.net>
References: <199405210927.LAA16694@eunet.ch>
<9405220029.AA20659@belegen.ripe.net>
Message-ID: <199405220937.AA03285@silver.eunet.fi>
Geert Jan de Groot writes:
>
> Playing around with this leads to a few more interesting ideas. These
> are personal; butcher them down if you don't like them:
> - Maybe we should make a point that people who want address space
> 'so they can connect later' to ask them to make a choice of ISP
> first and only THEN get address space (from the provider registry,
> that is). If they have a small network, say up to 100 hosts or so,
> having them use private address space and renumber once they connect
> should not be so bad.
Agree fully but I think this should be announced from some more authorative
entity than a local-ir. RIPE will do fine. At least if there is a way to
prevent situation where the customer does not go to some ISP other than
the one handling the last-resort-ir and gets an address there and later
when he's about to connect, feels that he got bad service from the ISP/last-
resort-registry and goes to the ISP he got the addresses from.
The point is that the above works if RIPE enforces this policy on ISP
registries and last-resort-registries. (on all you give address space)
> - This would point more work to ISP-registries instead of the L-R registry.
> This brings down the work on the L-R registries (who do this for free,
> after all), and brings these costs to ISP registries (who might see this
> as 'customer service' and thus have justification why their IR-activities
> cost effort and money)
> - It makes CIDR work better!
>
Agree with these two too. When we get a 'RIPE recommendation' that we can
hand out to the applicants that apply for address space but are not planning
to connect in immediate future ?
Pete
From poole at eunet.ch Sun May 22 22:52:54 1994
From: poole at eunet.ch (Simon Poole)
Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 22:52:54 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: <9405220843.AA20037@ncc.ripe.net> from "Hank Nussbacher" at May 22, 94 11:38:48 am
Message-ID: <199405222052.WAA27198@chsun.eunet.ch>
> On Fri, 20 May 94 17:32:13 BST you said:
> >One point I'd suggest though -- I don't believe it would be realistic
> >to expect a uniform charge across Europe. As with everything else in life,
> >costs will vary from country to country. One discussion point will be
> >whether one wants the idea of free competition across Europe, with
> >customers "shopping around" (the Maastricht ideal, I suppose), or a
> >situation where customers aren't "allowed" to apply in other than
> >their own country (ie regulation, or a cartel, depending on your view.)
A note on the side: not allowing purchase of IP addresses in other
countries would very likely be illegal at least inside the EU including
any other restrictions on usage of not nationally obtained IP addresses.
> >If the latter then there's an interesting consequence of what to do
> >if a one country's Last Resort Registry starts charging unreasonably
> >high prices ... this is a problem that hasn't been solved yet in the
> >well known area of line provision!
>
> Imagine the havoc it would play on CIDR if everyone shopped around
> to save a few ECUs on an IP address. RIPE could come out with
> a recommendation range, i.e. $10-$30 per class C.
The main problem is that if it's a small enough ammount to be painless,
it's too expensive to bill for (a one time bill for $10 is clearly not
going to make any sense at all).
Simon
From poole at eunet.ch Sun May 22 23:07:50 1994
From: poole at eunet.ch (Simon Poole)
Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 23:07:50 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: <9405220838.AA20014@ncc.ripe.net> from "Hank Nussbacher" at May 22, 94 11:27:10 am
Message-ID: <199405222107.XAA28846@chsun.eunet.ch>
Hank, I feel you are really mixing up two issues:
- DNS registration
- IP registry of last resort
It is really difficult to see where the large cost factor is
in the first case (if I counted correctly co.il contains 91
domains, really peanuts from a resource usage point of view).
In the second case, real personel costs -do- exist, since a lot
of applicants will expect free consulting and will argue end-
lessly about how much address space they need using up personel
time (and nerves).
Simon
From nipper at xlink.net Sun May 22 23:10:43 1994
From: nipper at xlink.net (Arnold Nipper)
Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 23:10:43 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: <199405222052.WAA27198@chsun.eunet.ch> from "Simon Poole" at May 22, 94 10:52:54 pm
Message-ID:
Simon Poole wrote:
>
>
> > On Fri, 20 May 94 17:32:13 BST you said:
> > >One point I'd suggest though -- I don't believe it would be realistic
> > >to expect a uniform charge across Europe. As with everything else in life,
> > >costs will vary from country to country. One discussion point will be
> > >whether one wants the idea of free competition across Europe, with
> > >customers "shopping around" (the Maastricht ideal, I suppose), or a
> > >situation where customers aren't "allowed" to apply in other than
> > >their own country (ie regulation, or a cartel, depending on your view.)
>
> A note on the side: not allowing purchase of IP addresses in other
> countries would very likely be illegal at least inside the EU including
> any other restrictions on usage of not nationally obtained IP addresses.
>
I can't see this. Don't take it as buying but paying sort of tax for it.
> > >If the latter then there's an interesting consequence of what to do
> > >if a one country's Last Resort Registry starts charging unreasonably
> > >high prices ... this is a problem that hasn't been solved yet in the
> > >well known area of line provision!
> >
> > Imagine the havoc it would play on CIDR if everyone shopped around
> > to save a few ECUs on an IP address. RIPE could come out with
> > a recommendation range, i.e. $10-$30 per class C.
>
> The main problem is that if it's a small enough ammount to be painless,
> it's too expensive to bill for (a one time bill for $10 is clearly not
> going to make any sense at all).
>
It should be *no* problem to do this for a 2 or 3-year period (one time for
setup, recurrent for maintaining). This would give a "bill" for about $50 once
in three years.
> Simon
--
Arnold Nipper / email: nipper at xlink.net
NTG Netzwerk und Telematic GmbH \/ phone: +49 721 9652 0
Geschaeftsbereich XLINK /\ LINK fax: +49 721 9652 210
Vincenz-Priessnitz-Str. 3 /_______
D-76131 Karlsruhe, Germany
From poole at eunet.ch Mon May 23 00:41:08 1994
From: poole at eunet.ch (Simon Poole)
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 00:41:08 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: from "Arnold Nipper" at May 22, 94 11:10:43 pm
Message-ID: <199405222241.AAA13535@chsun.eunet.ch>
Arnold Nipper writes:
> Simon Poole wrote:
...
> > A note on the side: not allowing purchase of IP addresses in other
> > countries would very likely be illegal at least inside the EU including
> > any other restrictions on usage of not nationally obtained IP addresses.
> >
>
> I can't see this. Don't take it as buying but paying sort of tax for it.
If it's considered a lease or a purchase dosen't matter, only governments
raise taxes.
> > The main problem is that if it's a small enough ammount to be painless,
> > it's too expensive to bill for (a one time bill for $10 is clearly not
> > going to make any sense at all).
> >
>
> It should be *no* problem to do this for a 2 or 3-year period (one time for
> setup, recurrent for maintaining). This would give a "bill" for about $50 once
> in three years.
Except that going to a system like this has significant implications in
two ways:
- the fact that you are now selling/leasing IP numbers has
legal consequences (guarentees and liabilities), that you
very likely will not be able to avoid (better never allocate
an IP number twice :-)).*
- currently IP number registration is very much "assign and forget",
a significant amount of infrastructure and cost is involved if
you regulary have to chase IP number owners down.
Simon
* very likely this already applies now, however at least I sleep better
as long as we're not asking money for the service :-).
From HANK at VM.BIU.AC.IL Mon May 23 08:14:06 1994
From: HANK at VM.BIU.AC.IL (Hank Nussbacher)
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 08:14:06 IDT
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 22 May 1994 23:07:50 +0200 (MET DST) from
Message-ID: <9405230521.HA22995@nikhefh.nikhef.nl>
On Sun, 22 May 1994 23:07:50 +0200 (MET DST) you said:
>
>Hank, I feel you are really mixing up two issues:
>
> - DNS registration
>
> - IP registry of last resort
>
>It is really difficult to see where the large cost factor is
>in the first case (if I counted correctly co.il contains 91
>domains, really peanuts from a resource usage point of view).
>
>In the second case, real personel costs -do- exist, since a lot
>of applicants will expect free consulting and will argue end-
>lessly about how much address space they need using up personel
>time (and nerves).
>
>Simon
In my case it is the opposite. The large personnel costs are for DNS rather
than for IP. Those that connect have no idea what DNS is, none whatsoever
about bind, nameservice, primary and secondary nameservers, how to structure
their own internal domain space, etc. I have had lots of Novell networks
wanting connectivity and then you need to explain to them about LAN
Workplace for DOS, LAN Workgroup or Netwire IP and how each fits into the
DNS way of things. The personnel time is roughly 5:1 for DNS vs IP
allocation in my country.
Hank
From bob at informatics.rutherford.ac.uk Mon May 23 09:54:44 1994
From: bob at informatics.rutherford.ac.uk (bob at informatics.rutherford.ac.uk)
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 09:54:44 BST
Subject: Address space for individuals
Message-ID: <9405230854.AA09669@buche>
> I can't see this. Don't take it as buying but paying sort of tax for it.
Nope. As Simon says, governments raise taxes, not private organisations.
If charging is to be run on a cost-recovery basis (and I can't myself
see any desire to do otherwise -- we all need to ensure the things's funded
but presumably don't see this as profit-making), the main costs are
staff related -- processing requests, giving advice etc. I can see this
as justifying a one-off fee for allocation, but there doesn't seem to
be a reason for a maintenance charge. (And what do you do if a customer
doesn't pay this? Reassign the number(s), with the knowledge that they're
probably still being used?)
Setting a "recommended" price is fine -- it's a sort of price
regulation. But this would have to be high enough to cover the staff
costs of those countries where salaries etc are relatively high --
generally north-west Europe. I still think there will be deviations,
as some registries will find alternative funding, some will just do
their own thing. As long as we don't have some silly idea of trying to
enforce a uniform charge, I don't think it matters -- things will shake
down, as the majority of companies will be more interested in applying
to their local registry (easier to do, same language, etc) than saving
a few ECUs. The main cause of people going to a non-local registry
would surely be if the local one wasn't giving a good service, rather
than because of price?
Bob Day
From bob at informatics.rutherford.ac.uk Mon May 23 14:11:24 1994
From: bob at informatics.rutherford.ac.uk (bob at informatics.rutherford.ac.uk)
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 14:11:24 BST
Subject: Address space for individuals
Message-ID: <9405231311.AA09726@buche>
> It would help the debate if, as early as possible, other
> last resort registries could indicate their views, their
> current practice and their funding methods. If recommendations
> are to be made, they should be based on as wide a poll as
> possible.
For the record, the UK situation.
Within JANET, we undertake two registry roles:
1. We assign numbers for those connecting to JANET. This is part of the
general service we provide to customers connecting to JANET, and is
effectively funded through the JANET connection charge and annual
rental. Therefore we wouldn't unbundle a charge for network number
assignment in these cases.
2. We're the NIC of last resort for the UK. This service is effectively
unfunded -- we do it as part of the JANET registry activities. Our
funding authorities in general think that doing this sort of thing is
desirable (ie in the interests of networking in the UK), but (if we were
to ask) wouldn't pay for it directly -- they'd expect us to fund it
by charging those wanting numbers. Obviously, we don't bother asking,
but the operation of this service is a constant drain, with the real
possibility that we'll have to give it up (ie hand it back to the NCC)
if it gets more onerous that at present.
For information, I'd reckon that processing a "simple" request, billing etc
would cost around 250 ECU. A more complex one, where there's a need to
discuss the situation in detail with the applicant might cost 500 ECU,
maybe more. With these sort of figures it'd probably be worth insisting
on having the registration fee come with the application, rather than
billing afterwards -- this should cut costs a bit. You'd still have to
generate a VAT receipt, though.
Bob
From mnorris at dalkey.hea.ie Mon May 23 13:07:31 1994
From: mnorris at dalkey.hea.ie (Mike Norris)
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 12:07:31 +0100
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 20 May 94 17:32:13 BST."
<9405201632.AA09151@buche>
Message-ID: <9405231107.AA00232@dalkey.hea.ie>
Bob and others have pointed to the dangers of unilateral
decisions by last resort IRs to charge directly for their
services. In this sense, a concerted approach is needed
and RIPE should be able to offer recommendations here.
It would help the debate if, as early as possible, other
last resort registries could indicate their views, their
current practice and their funding methods. If recommendations
are to be made, they should be based on as wide a poll as
possible.
Cheers.
Mike
From GeertJan.deGroot at ripe.net Mon May 23 21:43:43 1994
From: GeertJan.deGroot at ripe.net (Geert Jan de Groot)
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 21:43:43 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 23 May 1994 14:11:24 -0000."
<9405231311.AA09726@buche>
Message-ID: <9405231943.AA00683@ncc.ripe.net>
On Mon, 23 May 94 14:11:24 BST bob at informatics.rutherford.ac.uk wrote:
> For information, I'd reckon that processing a "simple" request, billing etc
> would cost around 250 ECU. A more complex one, where there's a need to
> discuss the situation in detail with the applicant might cost 500 ECU,
> maybe more. With these sort of figures it'd probably be worth insisting
> on having the registration fee come with the application, rather than
> billing afterwards -- this should cut costs a bit. You'd still have to
> generate a VAT receipt, though.
Here are some techniques we are using. You might find them useful
to lower the workload of the last-resort IR's:
1. Giving advice on how to set up networks is added value for
Internet Service Providers; I usually turn down those questions
quite quickly
2. Try to minimise your work, eventually making more work for the
requestor. Don't build an addressing plan to see if their
application is valid; ask them to provide one. Don't accept
if they are providing data their own way forcing you to transform;
ask them to provide the data the way YOU want it
(we do some calculations based on machine-[012] and subnet-[012]
as a first estimation; jokers not providing this information
see their application returned to them)
Based on some ideas that came up during the local-ir WG and ideas
we had earlier (which I forgot to bring up during the meeting -
sorry), we probably want to change ripe-107 a little - it times
out in a month anyway. Anybody else having hot ideas?
3. During last RIPE, I have heard several cry-for-help from some IR's
who have customers that do not accept the rulings of the IR and
cost quite a bit of effort convincing. I'm willing to help -
these are 'difficult cases' and you pay my salary to do those,
how much I hate them as well.... ;-)
Personally I don't like the situation that we have to bill for
IP numbers per se (it opens the way for big-$$$ company to apply for
a B for their 300-host network), but billing for consultancy around
the registration process seems much more suitable to me.
Also, what happens if a company pays you 500 or even 1000 ECU,
expecting you to give them a B, but their network does not justify
assigning that much of address space? A case could be made for
'services not delivered' with nasty consequences as well...
Geert Jan
From poole at eunet.ch Mon May 23 22:13:04 1994
From: poole at eunet.ch (poole at eunet.ch)
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 22:13:04 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: <9405231943.AA00683@ncc.ripe.net> from "Geert Jan de Groot" at May 23, 94 09:43:43 pm
Message-ID: <199405232013.WAA05026@eunet.ch>
>
> Here are some techniques we are using. You might find them useful
> to lower the workload of the last-resort IR's:
As I've pointed out before, the real problem lies in expectations
the people have with respect to address allocation. These expectations
are formed -long- before they actually contact a local-IR.
What we need are rules that are:
- stable (do not change every 6 months).
- are published (that does -not- mean an announcement
of yet another Ripe document on a Ripe mailing list)
and announced to a large audience.
- have support in the whole Internet community (with
other words: are the same in the US).
I would not blame people that have applied for address space over
the last three years for coming to the conclusion that the policy
is essentially random.
Simon
From poole at eunet.ch Mon May 23 22:16:47 1994
From: poole at eunet.ch (poole at eunet.ch)
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 22:16:47 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: <9405230521.HA22995@nikhefh.nikhef.nl> from "Hank Nussbacher" at May 23, 94 08:14:06 am
Message-ID: <199405232016.WAA05064@eunet.ch>
Hank writes:
> In my case it is the opposite. The large personnel costs are for DNS rather
> than for IP. Those that connect have no idea what DNS is, none whatsoever
> about bind, nameservice, primary and secondary nameservers, how to structure
> their own internal domain space, etc. I have had lots of Novell networks
> wanting connectivity and then you need to explain to them about LAN
> Workplace for DOS, LAN Workgroup or Netwire IP and how each fits into the
> DNS way of things. The personnel time is roughly 5:1 for DNS vs IP
> allocation in my country.
I really don't see the need for the large amount of consulting in the
case of DNS, give them a name and if they can't use it properly that
is -really- their problem (this doesn't work in the case of IP addresses,
since the size of the allocation has to be determined based on ther
technical plans of the applicant).
Simon
From nipper at xlink.net Mon May 23 23:28:43 1994
From: nipper at xlink.net (Arnold Nipper)
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 23:28:43 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: <199405232016.WAA05064@eunet.ch> from "poole@eunet.ch" at May 23, 94 10:16:47 pm
Message-ID:
poole at eunet.ch wrote:
>
>
> Hank writes:
> > In my case it is the opposite. The large personnel costs are for DNS rather
> > than for IP. Those that connect have no idea what DNS is, none whatsoever
> > about bind, nameservice, primary and secondary nameservers, how to structure
> > their own internal domain space, etc. I have had lots of Novell networks
> > wanting connectivity and then you need to explain to them about LAN
> > Workplace for DOS, LAN Workgroup or Netwire IP and how each fits into the
> > DNS way of things. The personnel time is roughly 5:1 for DNS vs IP
> > allocation in my country.
>
> I really don't see the need for the large amount of consulting in the
> case of DNS, give them a name and if they can't use it properly that
> is -really- their problem (this doesn't work in the case of IP addresses,
Strongly disagree. Doing so DNS performance would really be bad. Think of all
the ROOTs coming up ...
> since the size of the allocation has to be determined based on ther
> technical plans of the applicant).
>
We had lot of discussion about that within the DE-NIC steering-financing
committee. We finally decided to give every one a free shot. If the applicant
sent in a detailed technical plan justifying the requested address space, it's
fine. Otherwise the templates are sent back with addresses where he/she may
buy consultancy.
> Simon
--
Arnold Nipper / email: nipper at xlink.net
NTG Netzwerk und Telematic GmbH \/ phone: +49 721 9652 0
Geschaeftsbereich XLINK /\ LINK fax: +49 721 9652 210
Vincenz-Priessnitz-Str. 3 /_______
D-76131 Karlsruhe, Germany
From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Tue May 24 09:56:05 1994
From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg)
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 09:56:05 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 23 May 1994 23:28:43 MDT.
Message-ID: <9405240756.AA00419@reif.ripe.net>
> Arnold Nipper writes:
>
> We had lot of discussion about that within the DE-NIC steering-financing
> committee. We finally decided to give every one a free shot. If the applica
> nt
> sent in a detailed technical plan justifying the requested address space, i
> t's
> fine. Otherwise the templates are sent back with addresses where he/she may
> buy consultancy.
Who gets on that list?
From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Tue May 24 09:58:42 1994
From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg)
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 09:58:42 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 23 May 1994 22:16:47 MDT.
<199405232016.WAA05064@eunet.ch>
Message-ID: <9405240758.AA00431@reif.ripe.net>
> poole at eunet.ch writes:
>
> I really don't see the need for the large amount of consulting in the
> case of DNS, give them a name and if they can't use it properly that
> is -really- their problem (this doesn't work in the case of IP addresses,
> since the size of the allocation has to be determined based on ther
> technical plans of the applicant).
I agree with Simon (and disagree with Arnold).
For a *registry* it is quite OK to give out a name and delegate it only
if the servers for the zone are OK. This needs some checking which is work.
But I would not advocate the registry to also do consulting.
The ISP should do the consulting.
This may mean that delegations to badly operated servers may be revoked.
Interesting.....
Daniel
From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Tue May 24 10:10:44 1994
From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg)
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 10:10:44 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 23 May 1994 22:13:04 MDT.
<199405232013.WAA05026@eunet.ch>
Message-ID: <9405240810.AA00452@reif.ripe.net>
> poole at eunet.ch writes:
>
> As I've pointed out before, the real problem lies in expectations
> the people have with respect to address allocation. These expectations
> are formed -long- before they actually contact a local-IR.
>
> What we need are rules that are:
>
> - stable (do not change every 6 months).
I contest that the general rules are changing that quickly.
We are refining bits as necessary but we do not change the
general rules.
> - are published (that does -not- mean an announcement
> of yet another Ripe document on a Ripe mailing list)
> and announced to a large audience.
What can we do more than publish them as RIPE documents?
We do not have the resources for PR and frankly I think it is
not going to change much at all. A significant amount of requests
is still received by SRI although the InterNIC has done quite some PR and
there have been two different organisations doing it in the interim.
> - have support in the whole Internet community (with
> other words: are the same in the US)..
We are working on that. But if we want consensus before doing anything,
forget it. I strongly belive we should not be wasteful just because
someone else is. Think globally, act locally. Of course I am also very
open for the needs of *European* ISPs. We shouldn't damage our industry
either.
> I would not blame people that have applied for address space over
> the last three years for coming to the conclusion that the policy
> is essentially random.
I have never had that complaint. Many people commented that it was getting
more difficult to obtain address space. That is not random! Also everyone
I talked to understood the reasons and did not object to the policy as such.
Of course many objected to it being applied to themselves.... .
From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Tue May 24 10:18:43 1994
From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg)
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 10:18:43 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 22 May 1994 22:52:54 MDT.
<199405222052.WAA27198@chsun.eunet.ch>
Message-ID: <9405240818.AA00493@reif.ripe.net>
> poole at eunet.ch (Simon Poole) writes:
>
> A note on the side: not allowing purchase of IP addresses in other
> countries would very likely be illegal at least inside the EU including
> any other restrictions on usage of not nationally obtained IP addresses.
Stop it right there. There is no purchase involved. Once we talk about
purchase and ownership we are doomed. No aggrgation, no reclamation,
no leasing to refuce consumption. Erase those words from the discussion
please.
Now to Simon's remark: Where can I get a Swiss phone number in the
Netherlands? I think we should not be overly concerned with this
problem at the present time.
> The main problem is that if it's a small enough ammount to be painless,
> it's too expensive to bill for (a one time bill for $10 is clearly not
> going to make any sense at all).
I support leasing of address space eventually.
With all the problems involved.
One idea that is feasible then is to lease small amounts of address
space for longer times with advance payment. This gets around the
small bills problem.
Daniel
From Dave.Morton at ecrc.de Tue May 24 10:16:45 1994
From: Dave.Morton at ecrc.de (Dave Morton)
Date: Tue, 24 May 94 10:16:45 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
Message-ID: <9405240816.AA11760@acrab25.ecrc>
> > Arnold Nipper writes:
> >
> > We had lot of discussion about that within the DE-NIC steering-financing
> > committee. We finally decided to give every one a free shot. If the applica
> > nt
> > sent in a detailed technical plan justifying the requested address space, i
> > t's
> > fine. Otherwise the templates are sent back with addresses where he/she may
> > buy consultancy.
News to me...
>Who gets on that list?
Presumably a select few :-)
Dave
From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Tue May 24 10:32:50 1994
From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg)
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 10:32:50 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 21 May 1994 11:27:51 MDT.
<199405210927.LAA16694@eunet.ch>
Message-ID: <9405240832.AA00549@reif.ripe.net>
> poole at eunet.ch writes:
>
> If we go for some kind of CIDR'zed allocation of small nets, the
> policy should:
>
> - use a clearly identifiable address range (not the current
> class C's).
Why?
And how to do route aggregation?
> - be widely published (make it a big event).
Why?
I think it would be much better to have something published widely that
explained the registry system per se and not the specific details of
allocation policy. We will have to start charging which will be yet another
change.
From Dave.Morton at ecrc.de Tue May 24 10:47:31 1994
From: Dave.Morton at ecrc.de (Dave Morton)
Date: Tue, 24 May 94 10:47:31 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
Message-ID: <9405240847.AA11786@acrab25.ecrc>
> > poole at eunet.ch (Simon Poole) writes:
> >
> > A note on the side: not allowing purchase of IP addresses in other
> > countries would very likely be illegal at least inside the EU including
> > any other restrictions on usage of not nationally obtained IP addresses.
>
>Stop it right there. There is no purchase involved. Once we talk about
>purchase and ownership we are doomed. No aggrgation, no reclamation,
>no leasing to refuce consumption. Erase those words from the discussion
>please.
Yes - agreed. But then one is now faced with the problem of explaining.
"Ahem - well remember that Class Bs we assigned you back in 1989 - well
we'd now like to rent it to you for X ecu per annum - please transfer X
or esle".
>Now to Simon's remark: Where can I get a Swiss phone number in the
>Netherlands? I think we should not be overly concerned with this
>problem at the present time.
Not so sure - currently one can always get a gsm phone in country a
assuming one lives in country b and you don't like the tariffs in
country b. yes - hypothetical perhaps and unlikely but...
> > The main problem is that if it's a small enough ammount to be painless,
> > it's too expensive to bill for (a one time bill for $10 is clearly not
> > going to make any sense at all).
>
>I support leasing of address space eventually.
Me too but how are we going to explain this to people ?
>With all the problems involved.
>One idea that is feasible then is to lease small amounts of address
>space for longer times with advance payment. This gets around the
>small bills problem.
Yes - that was my suggestion to DE-NIC (also for domain registration
ala Hank's problem) but this was rejected as unworkable. If SPs can
send out bills for 35KECU per month then why not also for renting
address space and domain registration.
Have we looked at the possibility of a routing charge ?
>Daniel
Dave
From poole at eunet.ch Tue May 24 11:09:19 1994
From: poole at eunet.ch (poole at eunet.ch)
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 11:09:19 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: <9405240832.AA00549@reif.ripe.net> from "Daniel Karrenberg" at May 24, 94 10:32:50 am
Message-ID: <199405240909.LAA22314@eunet.ch>
>
>
> > poole at eunet.ch writes:
> >
> > If we go for some kind of CIDR'zed allocation of small nets, the
> > policy should:
> >
> > - use a clearly identifiable address range (not the current
> > class C's).
>
> Why?
One of my nightmares is giving out a a sub-C allocation to a customer
who later on, gets an external company to come in and install a couple of
a new machines (don't forget we are talking about very small organisations
with little man-power and perhaps little know-how). First reaction will be:
"Ah, you've got a class C, you are using a funny subnet, but we can change
that."
Using a clearly identified address space that will -not- lead to confusion
or will at least make people stop and think before changing things, would
be a very good idea.
> And how to do route aggregation?
I don't think this would be any worse (or just as good) as a completly
CIDR'zed class C address space, since these addresses would be provider
specific there would be no fragmentation problems).
[Note: I'm not convinced that this would actually work, but it is a logical
step if we do claim that we are moving towards a classless IPv4
Internet]
>
> > - be widely published (make it a big event).
>
> Why?
> I think it would be much better to have something published widely that
> explained the registry system per se and not the specific details of
> allocation policy. We will have to start charging which will be yet another
> change.
As I've pointed out before, the main problem is that the rules are not known,
this does make them easier to change, however is otherwise counterproductive.
A 1 page Ripe flyer explaining the current allocation rules and aims would
be a good start. There's nothing stoping us from adding a note that address
space will be charged for at one point in time.
Simon
From Dave.Morton at ecrc.de Tue May 24 11:07:01 1994
From: Dave.Morton at ecrc.de (Dave Morton)
Date: Tue, 24 May 94 11:07:01 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
Message-ID: <9405240907.AA11818@acrab25.ecrc>
>On Fri, 20 May 94 17:32:13 BST you said:
>>One point I'd suggest though -- I don't believe it would be realistic
>>to expect a uniform charge across Europe. As with everything else in life,
>>costs will vary from country to country. One discussion point will be
Yes - agreed Bob, we've already this problem in many pan-European projects.
Trying to explain why overheads are different from PT to DE is not easy.
>>whether one wants the idea of free competition across Europe, with
>>customers "shopping around" (the Maastricht ideal, I suppose), or a
>>situation where customers aren't "allowed" to apply in other than
>>their own country (ie regulation, or a cartel, depending on your view.)
>>If the latter then there's an interesting consequence of what to do
>>if a one country's Last Resort Registry starts charging unreasonably
>>high prices ... this is a problem that hasn't been solved yet in the
>>well known area of line provision!
In the case of IP numbers and domains one can sort of argue that a certain
monopolistic type structure is required for technical reasons (cidr, tlds
etc.) - how long this holds if we have competing pan-European or global
service providers is crystal ball stuff.
>Imagine the havoc it would play on CIDR if everyone shopped around
>to save a few ECUs on an IP address. RIPE could come out with
>a recommendation range, i.e. $10-$30 per class C.
Not possible Hank - I don't believe RIPE should try to regulate markets,
assuming such a market were to emerge. But you're right - it'll play havoc
with cidr if such a market does emerge before IPng gets widely implemented,
available and installed.
How is NSAP allocation done in other European countries ? I know that here
in DE one obtains NSAP for around 32ecu per NSAP per year. Does this compare
and is there some sort of international (european agreement on this) - I doubt it ?
>>Could be an interesting discussion....
Indeed.
>>
>>Bob Day
>
>Hank Nussbacher
Dave
From Dave.Morton at ecrc.de Tue May 24 12:31:14 1994
From: Dave.Morton at ecrc.de (Dave Morton)
Date: Tue, 24 May 94 12:31:14 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
Message-ID: <9405241031.AA11876@acrab25.ecrc>
>is the decision to be made then I would like to see a table of all RIPE
>countries that provide free registry services with who provides the
>funding:
>
>a) government funded registry
>b) university funded registry
>c) country Internet consortium funded registry
For DE it's model c above.
>d) other
>
>Do people feel that such a table would be worthwhile to determine who
>is currently funding registry services in Europe today?
Yes - very good idea.
>Hank
Dave
From huber at chx400.switch.ch Tue May 24 13:35:32 1994
From: huber at chx400.switch.ch (Willi Huber)
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 13:35:32 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: map of assigned networks
Message-ID: <9405241135.AA03770@ncc.ripe.net>
Hallo,
prior to the past RIPE meeting I sent a (rather long) message onto this
list about a 'graphical' representation of the assigned networks from the
blocks 193/8 - 194/8. Nandor Horvath has asked me to make available the script
that generated this output. Here it is. Make with it whatever you like.
Willi Huber
--------------
An example:
netmap 193.5/16 0) { $mask *= 2; }
$firstnet = int($firstnet / $mask) * $mask;
$lastnet = $firstnet+$mask;
print "\nnetmap: looking for networks ";
&printnet($firstnet);
print " <= network < ";
&printnet($lastnet);
print "\n\n";
open(INET,">/tmp/netmap.$$") || die "netmap: Couldn't open >/tmp/netmap.$$\n";
while (<>) {
if (/\*in/) {
chop;
($key,$value) = split(/\s+/,$_,2);
if ($value =~ /-/) {
($value,$value2) = $value =~ /(\S+) - (\S+)/;
&binnet($value); &binnet($value2);
} else {
&binnet($value);
$value2 = $value;
}
if (($value >= $firstnet) && ($value < $lastnet)) {
printf INET "%09d %09d\n",$value,$value2;
}
}
}
close INET;
$lastplotted = $firstnet-1;
open(SORTED,"sort /tmp/netmap.$$ |") ||
die "netmap: Couldn't open sort /tmp/netmap.$$ |\n";
while () {
($value,$value2) = split;
&plot($value,$value2);
}
print "\n";
close SORTED;
unlink("/tmp/netmap.$$");
exit;
sub binnet {
undef(@bytes);
(@bytes) = split(/\./,$_[0]);
$_[0] = ($bytes[0]*256+$bytes[1])*256+$bytes[2];
}
sub printnet {
local($i) = $_[0];
printf "%d.%d.%d",
int($i / 0x10000),
int($i / 0x100 % 0x100),
$i % 0x100;
}
sub plot {
local($v,$v2) = @_;
if ($lastplotted >= $v) { return; }
$lastplotted++;
while ($lastplotted != $v) {
&plotnet(".",$lastplotted);
$lastplotted++;
}
&plotnet($c,$v);
while ($v != $v2) {
$v++;
&plotnet($c,$v);
}
$lastplotted = $v2;
if ($c eq "*") { $c = "#"; } else { $c = "*" }
}
sub plotnet {
local($c,$i) = @_;
if ($counter >= 64) {
printf "\n%03d.%03d.%03d ",
int($i / 0x10000),
int($i / 0x100 % 0x100),
$i % 0x100;
$counter = 0;
}
$counter++;
print $c;
}
From HANK at VM.BIU.AC.IL Sun May 29 08:26:38 1994
From: HANK at VM.BIU.AC.IL (Hank Nussbacher)
Date: Sun, 29 May 94 08:26:38 IDT
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 24 May 94 12:31:14 +0200 from
Message-ID: <9405290528.AA08910@ncc.ripe.net>
On Tue, 24 May 94 12:31:14 +0200 you said:
>>is the decision to be made then I would like to see a table of all RIPE
>>countries that provide free registry services with who provides the
>>funding:
>>
>>a) government funded registry
>>b) university funded registry
>>c) country Internet consortium funded registry
>
>For DE it's model c above.
>
>>d) other
>>
>>Do people feel that such a table would be worthwhile to determine who
>>is currently funding registry services in Europe today?
>
>Yes - very good idea.
>
>>Hank
>Dave
Ok. Plz send me your reply to the above and I will summerize to the
list. Please indicate what region you manage.
Thanks,
Hank
From bilse at EU.net Thu May 19 15:16:54 1994
From: bilse at EU.net (Per Gregers Bilse)
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 15:16:54 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
Message-ID: <199405191316.AA29928@spades.EU.net>
Ignoring for a minute that I don't work with local-ir stuff in any
way or capacity, I find it odd the lengths ``we'' (Internet NICs,
registries, providers) go to, to help and support people and
organisations who don't want to play our game, ie connect to the
global Internet, anyway. This is even more so, given the address
space depletion (although opinions wrt this problem varies).
Individuals or micro companies who want to connect a couple of PCs
on a LAN can renumber the day they connect.
Larger companies who clearly state that they have no intention of
connecting, and want numbers for closed networks, don't need unique
numbers (this has been discussed elsewhere recently).
Medium size companies who intend to connect (later) -- no problem, of
course they can get official numbers.
But is it completely outrageous to consider unique/official IP
numbers to be the property of the global, connected Internet? And
categorically rule that they will only be issued to members of this
crowd, ie those that actually (intend to) connect?
"Intend to connect" ... A sledgehammer approach (nothing new in this,
but I think it bears repeating): Organisations get allocations as
usual, with the usual justifications for size etc. If somebody don't
use (ie connect and route) at least part of their allocation within,
say, 12 months, they have forfeited their chance. Their numbers may
be re-assigned to somebody else, who now has first call. If the
original requestor wants to connect at a later stage, they'll have to
renumber.
Considering the "interesting" future ahead of us, when IP numbers
become really scarce, I don't see any reason to dole them out
right, left and center to people who don't intend to use them.
Unless we want to start building the future market of IP numbers;
I wonder what a /16 will sell for around the turn of the century.
--
bilse +31 20 592 5109 (dir: 5110); fax +31 20 592 5163
``We used to ! but now we @'' (jensen)
From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Thu May 19 15:37:02 1994
From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg)
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 15:37:02 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 19 May 1994 15:16:54 MDT.
<199405191316.AA29928@spades.EU.net>
Message-ID: <9405191337.AA01764@reif.ripe.net>
> Per Gregers Bilse writes:
> "Intend to connect" ... A sledgehammer approach (nothing new in this,
> but I think it bears repeating): Organisations get allocations as
> usual, with the usual justifications for size etc. If somebody don't
> use (ie connect and route) at least part of their allocation within,
> say, 12 months, they have forfeited their chance. Their numbers may
> be re-assigned to somebody else, who now has first call. If the
> original requestor wants to connect at a later stage, they'll have to
> renumber.
Private interconnections between enterprises not necessarily via
the Internet also need unique numbers.
From erik-jan.bos at SURFnet.nl Thu May 19 15:57:16 1994
From: erik-jan.bos at SURFnet.nl (Erik-Jan Bos)
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 15:57:16 +0200
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 19 May 1994 15:09:59 +0200.
Message-ID:
Daniel,
> > Geert Jan de Groot writes:
>
> > - If this person only has a few hosts, then it is probably a good idea to
> > ask him to renumber once he connects to the Internet. I don't believe
> > that renumbering 3 PC's would be that much of a problem.
> > 1597 might be useful after all..
>
> This sums up my personal opinion.
Great, quite along my personal opinion, but we need a consistent
approach among all Local IRs.
> If they are not going to connect immediately, then let them use private
> address space and renumber their 3 hosts later.
>
> If they are going to connect immediately, let the service provider
> registry assign numbers.
Sure.
> I know of cases where they subnet part of
> the SP space. Soon - when we have a classless allocation registry,
> this can even be registered.
The world, now classless, might have /30s and /29s all over the place.
I do not want to think of /32s. This gives us a neat "tool" to make
sure that everybody has address space assigned to her or him that fits
the needs.
Looking into my cristal ball (sorry, I sound like somebody else :-) ),
I see a world in which the bakery on the corner of the street has a
brand new /28 assigned to his one-man company by a ISP he selected.
After a few month the guy making bread discovers there is an ISP for
the bakery branch in his city and he wants to switch over to the
bakery-ISP. This ISP welcomes his new customer with open arms and
announces this /28 to the Internet at large. Remember, this /28 is from
the first ISP in this story. Think of what this will do to the
efficiency of CIDR...
Bottom line of this story is that there needs to be a mechanism in place
that forces the bakery to renumber to a CIDR range of his new service
provider. For the bakery with a /28 this is not too complex, but what
about this large company with a /15?
__
Erik-Jan.
From mnorris at dalkey.hea.ie Thu May 19 22:24:22 1994
From: mnorris at dalkey.hea.ie (Mike Norris)
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 21:24:22 +0100
Subject: Draft minute of mtg yesterday
Message-ID: <9405192024.AA24043@dalkey.hea.ie>
D R A F T D R A F T D R A F T D R A F T D R A F T
Minute of Local IR WG Meeting at RIPE-18, May 1994
X.Y Local IR Working Group (D Karrenberg)
Chair: D Karrenberg
Scribe: M Norris
X.Y.1 Opening
An agenda circulated beforehand was agreed. The minutes of the
meeting held during RIPE-17 in January 1994 were agreed.
X.Y.2 Election of New Chairman
D Karrenberg explained why he had announced his resignation as
chairman. The efficacy of the WG might be questioned given that
the Director of the NCC presided over a group drawn from the
membership of RIPE, which set the agenda of the NCC. In addition,
the workload of the NCC was now so onerous that all other activities
had to be reviewed.
Following discussion, the meeting unanimously expressed its complete
satisfaction in the chairmanship by D Karrenberg of the Local IR
Working Group. The Group had found the close linkage with the
NCC to be of great benefit, and that this had never impeded its
work nor imposed any limitations on its freedom of action. The
meeting reluctantly accepted the resignation of the chairman.
M Norris agreed to act as chairman, with effect from the end of the
meeting.
X.Y.3 European Registry Report by the NCC
D Karrenberg reported that, from experience, it may be that enterprise
networks, such as those belonging to large multi- or trans-national
organisations, needed their own IP registries. As a rule, such
organisations did not get delegated address space. However, coordination
between local and regional registries was important.
X.Y.4 Reports of Significant Events at Local Registries
Question: In light of renumbering caused by CIDR, what should be
done with returned addresses?
It was agreed that such addresses could be returned, and welcome, to
any European IR. Such IRs would return addresses to the NCC. If
the addresses could be aggregated, they would be re-used, otherwise
they would be returned to IANA.
Question: Will someone write a paper on why it is a good idea to
return unused addresses?
Some discussion, but no takers.
It was agreed that incidents of note should be reported to the list
and to the NCC, and not reported only at WG meetings.
Incidents were reported of applications being rejected in Europe
but accepted on re-application to other regional registries. The
group expressed concern at the disparity in the criteria applied
by RIPE and InterNIC registries.
Action 18.1 D Karrenberg
Convey RIPE's concern at this disparity to the InterNIC.
X.Y.5 Standard IP Application Form
There was a discussion of multiple applications to different registries
by the same organisation, or by different components of the same
organisation. It was agreed that the standard form should be revised
to guard against such abuses. The following changes should be made:
* Indicate that any statements made in the form could be used in
consideration of future applications
* Applicants should indicate their parent organisation and its
assigned address space, if any
* Applicants to state whether they had made any applications for
IP addresses in Europe or elsewhere
Action 18.2 NCC
Draft new standard form in light of above recommendations
for discussion on the list.
X.Y.6 Default Range of AS Numbers
D Karrenberg had asked IANA for a default range of AS numbers, but this
had been refused.
[ Yves, can you please fill in the text of the point you made here? ]
[ I apologise for not minuting it properly. ]
X.Y.7 Report from Local IR Workshop
The workshop held before the start of RIPE-18 had been well attended,
numbers exceeding those who had booked and the number of lunch
equivalents.
RFC1597, concerning the allocation of private IP addresses, was noted.
Common errors with the administration of reverse DNS zones had been
summarised.
Action 18.3 NCC
Investigate monthly publication of error files on
reverse zone files, a la host count.
X.Y.8 Funding of and Charging for Local Registry Service
The meeting agreed that these were important issues and that the
group should make recommendations as soon as possible.
Action 18.4 M Norris
Initiate discussion on the list and aim to
summarise by way of a draft recommendation.
X.Y.9 Assignment Statistics
W Woeber and W Huber had suggested means of representing address
space assignment status. This would be discussed on the list.
From nipper at xlink.net Fri May 20 10:19:13 1994
From: nipper at xlink.net (Arnold Nipper)
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 10:19:13 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: <9405200757.AA02255@reif.ripe.net> from "Daniel Karrenberg" at May 20, 94 09:57:15 am
Message-ID:
Daniel Karrenberg wrote:
>
>
> My proposal would read like:
>
> - very small enterprises (VSEs) are those <32 hosts now
>
> - last resort registries will not assign address space to VSEs
>
> - VSEs can use private address space (RFC1697)
> - VSEs are easy to renumber once they connect
> - VSEs are likely to connect with one host only
>
> - service provider registries will assign VSEs smaller amounts
> of address space than 8 bits where possible
>
> - service provider registries will register these smaller amounts
> in the RIPE database when possible
>
> Rationale:
>
> Very many VSEs with 8 bits of address space each will use up
> too much address space.
>
>
>
> Is this acceptable to all?
>
Fully agree
> Implementation: If this was accepted the NCC could accept classles
> inetnums very soon even before the indexing is fully classless.
>
> Question: Should we publish such things as RIPE documents or just
> circulate them among registries as "current practise recommendations".
> I personally think we should publish them, but have heared reservations.
>
> Daniel
>
--
Arnold Nipper / email: nipper at xlink.net
NTG Netzwerk und Telematic GmbH \/ phone: +49 721 9652 0
Geschaeftsbereich XLINK /\ LINK fax: +49 721 9652 210
Vincenz-Priessnitz-Str. 3 /_______
D-76131 Karlsruhe, Germany
From Stephan.Biesbroeck at belnet.be Fri May 20 10:31:28 1994
From: Stephan.Biesbroeck at belnet.be (Stephan.Biesbroeck at belnet.be)
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 10:31:28 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Address space for individuals
In-Reply-To: <9405200757.AA02255@reif.ripe.net> from "Daniel Karrenberg" at May 20, 94 09:57:15 am
Message-ID: <9405200831.AA10981@mahler.belnet.be>
Daniel Karrenberg wrote :
>
>
> We will write something up next week. If someone else does before
> us we can use that!
>
> My proposal would read like:
>
> - very small enterprises (VSEs) are those <32 hosts now
>
> - last resort registries will not assign address space to VSEs
>
> - VSEs can use private address space (RFC1697)
> - VSEs are easy to renumber once they connect
> - VSEs are likely to connect with one host only
>
> - service provider registries will assign VSEs smaller amounts
> of address space than 8 bits where possible
>
> - service provider registries will register these smaller amounts
> in the RIPE database when possible
>
> Rationale:
>
> Very many VSEs with 8 bits of address space each will use up
> too much address space.
>
>
>
> Is this acceptable to all?
YES
>
> Implementation: If this was accepted the NCC could accept classles
> inetnums very soon even before the indexing is fully classless.
>
> Question: Should we publish such things as RIPE documents or just
> circulate them among registries as "current practise recommendations".
> I personally think we should publish them, but have heared reservations.
I am in favour of publication because it is then clear that it is a general
policy, and not just a register who want to give a hard time to a VSE...
>
> Daniel
>
Stephan
>
--
Stephan Biesbroeck Tel: +32(0)2-2383470
stephan at belnet.be Fax: +32(0)2-2315131
Service Support Team of the Belgian National Research Network, BELNET