While I must recognize that the idea of the brands not being actual brands is very interesting, I don't buy that a bunch of people were capable of creating something of the magnitude of a god. Even if we don't take into account episode 83, the series has been made very clear that whatever is pulling the strings, it's something that acts at world scale, affecting every single human being. Although the story takes place primarly in one continent, and probably every major event happened, happens and will happen in it, I think that the circumstances of the creation of God (if it was created at all) were more profound and complicated than a group of fanatics claiming for it. However what is for sure is that whatever happened 1000 years ago in Midland during Gaiseric's reign was the last straw.

Sacrifices tend to attract evil spirits and with so many sacrifices in one place would make a huge mess every night, wouldn't it? So, the fact that this Brands does not attract evil spirits and everyone have them in the same places, making me think that those are not the genuine brands and there was a cult of the Idea of Evil in the Capital and they carved the brand themselves.

As far as we can assume, branded corpses don't attract evil spirits, because, well, they're corpses. What attract the evil spirits is precisely the branded's lives, not the brand itself.

As far as we can assume, branded corpses don't attract evil spirits, because, well, they're corpses. What attract the evil spirits is precisely the branded's lifes, not the brand itself.

Indeed. We must not forget that in normal circumstances, a branded person should not have survived.

So either SK was branded at some point or he is involved in another way somehow.

Like Tripas said, I don't think that the Idea of Evil was created in the same time period that Gaiseric was living. The way I see it, it's been "alive" since a long time and the process to create one God Hand is a long one involving the manipulation of a lot of family lines to get the human it needed.

Also, it's a bit strange for a king to actually fight the battles himself. And not just being present on a battlefield but earn himself names like "Demon King" and "King of Galloping Death".

Not strange at all, for the time (and he wasn't a king during those fights). Some of history's greatest military leaders fought on the front lines with their men. It only ceased being common in the past 200-300 years, as technology (and the scale of warfare) evolved to make it impractical.

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In the end he was "punished" for his greed and sins in the legend.

Yeah, according to that oral legend, passed down for 1,000 years, in a world where the God Hand have maintained a firm grip on human affairs for centuries.

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Don't be hostile, please, I'm just suggesting ideas.

If ideas aren't plausible and grounded by evidence then there's not much point in discussing them openly. This section is intended to expand our understanding of the source material, not create fiction.

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Only Flora and (possibly) Flowerstorm King as far as we know, right? Anyone else?

Are those not enough sources?

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Because I don't think that Void became God Hand at the same time the Capital was destroyed nor do I think him becoming God Hand was the reason for the destruction of the Capital.

I think you're confused. The logical course of reasoning is that the wiseman/sage became a God Hand at Albion, hence the angel. Like I said before, you're complicating things by (seemingly arbitrarily) making Void the good guy for a time before turning bad, and NOT turning into a God Hand when it makes the most sense (contact with an angel).

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I think I've already explained why it doesn't make sense to me. I think Void prevented Gaiseric from doing whatever he wanted to do with that brand of sacrifice cult Void was running under Gaiseric command. Void failed to talk sense into him and got sended to Albion. Then he destroys the Capital. But in the end he becomes a major part of what he tried to stop, because fate is ironic.

So, Void talked Gaiseric down from sacrificing stuff. Then was tortured, but wasn't turned into a God Hand. But escaped (with an angel) then came back to the capital to DESTROY IT (by sacrificing stuff?). ................... What? How does this make any sense to you?

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You're a bit too quick to discard all math, logistic and logic mismatches, and write it off as "it's just a legend that was retold many times and distorted as a result", when it all could make sense.

It all probably WILL make sense. But we don't have all the pieces yet, and your fabrication of the missing pieces doesn't match the personalities or motivations of the characters we know (Void boning Flora, Gaiseric secretly leading a cult, Void talking Gaiseric down from ritualistic sacrifice only to become VOID). What part of the Skull Knight's actions leads you to think he'd support a cult or be interested in demonic ceremonies? What part of Flora's character (and her relationship with the Skull Knight) makes you think she was ever involved someone like Void?

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I sure might go overboard with doing the opposite, but that's the point of speculating.

I think it goes beyond speculating, and into the territory of storytelling. It's vital to keep the fundamentals in mind when you're doing this stuff, or you stray so far that it's a fruitless effort.

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Another idea that I'm open to is that the presumed cult of the brand, could been a secret work of Voids, which goal was a creation of the desired god. Later he was exposed and sended to tortures. But the cult was already able to successfully conceive the Idea.

This is more plausble than Flora boning Void then blushing at Gaiseric, but it's still got some key stuff wrong. Namely that as far as we know, the Idea of Evil was born the dark side of a collective consciousness deep in the astral world ("An ocean of feelings all humans have deep in their souls"). If we accept that at face value, then there's no reason for there to have been external stimuli for it to have gestated. Its existence is consistent with the properties of its environment.

I do think it's possible that Void and his minions were the first to make "contact" with the Idea of Evil, which is what led to the formalized sacrificial ceremonies.

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That descended angel might have been an egg or an embryo of the Idea that was nurtured by Void's suffering because of tortures. In order to "grow up" it needed a major dose of negative emotions, which was provided by Void destroying the Capital.

That's reaching, man. The Idea of Evil isn't a lump of flesh, or an egg (and why would that be regarded as an angel?). It has no physical existence.

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But this specularion renders Gaiseric as just an incidental victim of what's been going on behind his back, which seems not as interesting.

We know that Gaiseric knew the man who (likely) became Void. That alone is interesting. It doesn't have to involve a switcharoo, or that Gaiseric had to secretly have been plotting a cult all along.

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Though this would actually make a better sense with Zodd's remark about Gaiseric/SK being opposed apostles/GH for a millennium, since he opposed the presumed cult.

His kingdom was destroyed 1000 years ago, and brands were left behind. Isn't that enough...? Why is that part still a mystery?

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And he doesn't necessarily had to go to Elfhelm. Maybe he hangout with Flora in her Spirit Tree house to restore his body and soul after tortures. And to bone her.

Got it. So Flora and Void were fucking in her tree house while Gaiseric shook off the loss of his kingdom in Elfhelm. 800 years later, he and Flora are best buds (exactly like Guts and Schierke, actually!).

Can we get some fan art of this?

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What I'm getting at is that I don't see a reason why a mage couldn't ask Kings to attack. It'd be kind of sad if all Four Kings are good for is a barrier that even beginner like Farnese could cast. Aren't they supposed to be the most powerful astral beings?

They are fundamentally different beings. The Kings govern the elements. The elemental entities are like fief lords with regional jurisdictions. And yes, the contract process for them was likewise very different.

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Apparently it doesn't take too much of ego power for Four Kings to stand there like an assholes.

... Ego power?

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It seems to me that Schierke asked for help water spirit and wheel of flame instead of Ve and Gedula because she could handle them.

She explains why she selected those entities. She had access to their power because they were tied to those regions. Furthermore, she needed offensive capabilities at times, and others, defensive.

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Daiba was able to control Kundalini, which was about as powerful as astral gods, right?

Not "astral gods," no. And that's a magical creature, not an elemental entity. Not in the same league, and involving a completely different process.

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What I'm trying to say is that Sage might been powerful enough to ask Four King to actually deal some damage.

It's a defensive barrier.

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Like summoned spirits maybe?

What I was insinuating was that the God Hand come from a deep layer of the astral world. So do the Four Kings. Elemental entities occupy other regions of the astral world. They're on a lesser level.

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Isn't Armor just takes the form of the Beast?

What?

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Anyway SK needed Flora for same reason Guts needs Schierke, so I'm pretty sure Armor affect mental health as well. And the talisman that Flora applied on the Armor was to specifically protect his ego - v27_p049. I'm not sure if Flora or SK knew about Guts's mental issues to do it specifically for his personal Beast. And it seems logical for the Armor itself to want the user to lose himself in a rage so it could "devour" him.

How is any of this related to your claim that Guts becoming less human as he progressively uses the armor? It's causing him grave physical harm and threatens to kill him every time he uses it, yes. That's it.

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I don't know, he obviously had the wish and desire for becoming the king he was. Is it too crazy to think that he might not dropped that seem to be a dream of his after his Empire collapsed? His Empire was taken away from him, unless he given up on it himself. Now his Imperial Capital got sort of reincarnated (with his "help"), why forbid the thought that it might be what he was going for (especially if he has some sort of ability to peek through future and past events)? And he need Guts to eliminate the current king if that's the case.

He is out for revenge. He is not trying to sit on a throne and rule over people as King Hollow Armor Please Fetch Me Some Grapes.

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SK doesn't seem to be thirsty for apostle blood. So it's not all about being foe to all inhumans as he says, he doesn't express anger, hatred or excessive will to kill towards apostles. He's way more methodical and planned out.

Is red the only color of revenge? Besides, you're talking about a guy who's been doing this for a millennia. He's become cold, but clearly no less committed to his revenge.

I have to say Ive enjoyed the back and forth on this topic. That being said Id have to side with Walter on this topic with respect to this theory. Its very important as it has already been pointed out to have good evidence to support any theories not just in this forum but in life in general. Walter did an excellent job of addressing each point thoroughly and although I did sense some frustration I believe he was not too harsh about debunking. I was surprised not to see a response from Aaz, who I can assure you would have brought the hammer down a bit harder on the topic. This story has a way of making your mind wander so if you do want to post on here its important to bring the facts. I for one have had some crazy, fan fiction, theories of my own which I have not posted because of lack of evidence and later tossed aside as ridiculous. I remember at one point I believed that Guts and Gaiseric were actually the same person and Guts had somehow used the helix tree to travel through time and space to battle the IOE. Any how I dont know if there is a fan fiction section on this page but if you dont want your theories to be classfied as such you best bring your A game because everyone on here has likely read all the volumes multiple time. Still I always love a good new topic and appreciate the good work. Thank you eveyone.

I was surprised not to see a response from Aaz, who I can assure you would have brought the hammer down a bit harder on the topic.

I was away on business for a week, so I had no opportunity to visit the forum. I can't say I'm unhappy to have avoided this discussion however, as these talks are inevitably very time consuming.Anyway, having read the first post I can confirm that Pav237's theory is fatally flawed in many ways, and while I didn't read the whole thread I'm sure Walter did a more than appropriate job of pointing out why.As always, the debunking of misconceptions shouldn't be taken as a personal attack, but as a way for us to collectively refine our knowledge of the series.

That was a very interesting collection of posts. If I had seen them before starting my new one about a cyclical God Hand, I wouldn't opened a new one.

Anyway, I'm still into the idea of a cyclical God Hand. And I do think there is some evidence. Not enough to say "it's cyclical for sure" or it won't be a theory but a fact, of course. In my opinion, it's principal virtues are:

- Cyclical stuff works fine with Miura's world- It explains the ascendancy of Void* - It may explain the "Four angels" stuff- It may help to understand what's happening now, and what happened 1000 years ago.

* I liked the idea of the IoE cult exposed here on previous posts. Honestly I never thought about it. It could also be the fetus of the church; after all, it's symbol its pretty much the brand itself, so these corpses, who may have been branded not on an eclipse but by their own hand may actually be the seed of the present day church. If that cult its linked or not to ascension of Void, who knows.

About the relationship between Void, Flora and Gaiseric. What about a love triangle, since we are talking about cyclic history? Pretty much like Griffith-Casca-Guts. If Void was a mage, he could have been a beloved and respected teacher for Flora, who may have been the lover - or one of the lovers - of Gaiseric. Here we have something similar to Casca-Griffith-Guts: she may have seen Void as Casca sees Griffith, as a mix between a father-like figure, an impossible lover or a platonic one and a hero deserving his infinite gratitude. And Gaiseric as Guts, could have been for her a more passional relationship. Gaiseric, beeing probably not as kind and honorable as Guts, may have decided to confine and torture Void just for jealousy. That for me could be an explanaition for Void's time in St Albion and explain a lot better (personal feelings involved) the resentment between Void and Gaiseric. I do feel that something like that it's needed to explain the hate between these two. Just something personal. We all agree on our appreciation of Skull's nature: won't it be better if his quest is for that more than for a lost empire? And well, for his own branding.

About GH cyclic nature: the IoE as I was arguing on my other post is, maybe, not as old as humanity but probably it's as old as human civilization. So it was at least 6000 years old or so when Gaiseric and Void were born. On all that time, what the IoE was doing? Cycles are frecuently seen as something bad per se, something that enslaves humanity on an eternal wheel of suffering. So, cycles working on a 1000 years basis sound good. What happens on the end of each cycle? A catastrophy; something deeply disturbing to shape the evolution of civilization for the next 1000 years. The fall of Gaiseric's empire, that could have been the end of the previous cycle: that meant the loss of a rich culture and probably an extended period of obscurity - pretty much like the fall of the roman empire and the early middle ages -, and shaped the formation of Kingdoms like Midland.The rise of Falconia and it's more than likely fall will do the same.

And a cyclic GH will place void on the same position as Femto and explain how he ascended, guided by who. What happened to this previous GH members? Death is not the only answer: they may have dissolved into the IoE, trascended to a higher status or just consumed their life-span (aka utility) and disappeared.