Posted
by
samzenpus
on Monday June 21, 2010 @02:44PM
from the so-that's-how-a-magnet-works dept.

Working on the assumption that the Insane Clown Posse's song Miracles was indeed a tribute to the wonder of nature and not the cleverest troll ever, some folks from the hackerspace Noisebridge decided to try and educate ICP fans. Surprisingly, most of the fans seemed to enjoy the science lesson, but representatives of the band didn't seem to think it was funny.

I can't see the use for trying to educate them; for one, it's a waste of effort, for another, who will we get to work 3rd shift at Jack in the Box?Besides, they're just SO softcore. I mean, real sonsofbitches listen to Whitney Houston. The worst thing is trying to figure out which album I like more...

I can't see the use for trying to educate them; for one, it's a waste of effort...

Especially considering one of the lyrics to the song is "I don't wanna talk to no scientist; ya'll motherfuckers lying and getting me pissed." They know there are educated explanations for rainbows and making babies--they may even know what they are--but it's just anti-religious elitism worth ignoring. Let them have their magical magnets. Any fans that take it that seriously probably weren't going to go on to be the next Gauss anyway.

Funny enough, the 'random' quote at the bottom of this page of comments is this:

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. -- Wm. Shakespeare, "Hamlet"

That is not to say that there is no wonder in the world, and that there are some things still unexplained, but to ignore an explanation when one exists is anti-science and tends toward willful, enthusiastic ignorance.

Lol.. I think you are missing the entire point of the song. It's not about any religion or elitism, it's about appreciating the things in life without needing to boil it down to some boring explanation. A rainbow or the birth of your child is a special moment that should be enjoyed and cherished, not some technical bullshit that takes any subliminal meaning away from it. It's about events that are a power greater then you- like 75,000 people in a room acting as one. the miracle isn't something any god did o

Trust me, if you can say "Scientists are liars" to your girlfriend with a straight face and you can still get laid, you can keep her. There are plenty of non-retarded women for the rest of us. It's quite likely that very few people would take issue with this song (you take that line out, it's practically a Celine Dion song) if it didn't contain that line.

M/V Analysis
The music video for Miracles is most notable for its “effin’ terrible, nevertheless amazing” dynamic, with plenty of quotable phrases as “FUCKING MAGNETS, HOW DO THEY WORK?” (1:52) and “MAGIC EVERYWHERE IN THIS BITCH”, not to mention all of the things that happen in the video. He also mentions “fucking rainbows” which has become quite lulzworthy:
Then Shaggy says “and I don’t want to talk to a scientist, y’all mother fuckers lyin, and gettin me pissed.” This line implies a sense of frustration and paramount struggle in understanding basic scientific concepts, while maintaining a childlike sense of wonder over the forces of nature. He wants to know how magnets work, yet he is not willing to accept a scientific explanation.

The "lying" thing is clearly aimed at all such phenomena. So, I'll add to my original snerk. "Not about magnets, rainbows or any other "mysteries" that were solved (to first approximation) a long time ago. In any case, I fully realize it's just a stupid song and is being taken way too seriously. It's like seriously responding to Jenny McCarthy about vaccines. Obvious trolls are obvious but seem to have hooked a lot of fishies.

Lighten up Francis. I'll say it again, since you missed it the first time.

In any case, I fully realize it's just a stupid song and is being taken way too seriously. It's like seriously responding to Jenny McCarthy about vaccines. Obvious trolls are obvious but seem to have hooked a lot of fishies.

And what search? I simply RTFA. It's a fucking song and this is the IDLE section of/. People are making too much of this. And people seem to put musicians on a fucking pedestal for issues that they are severely under-equipped to discuss intelligently. Pyramids and UFOs? What the hell does any of that have to do with scientists? Get real. Pyramids = overrated cargo cult science. UFOs exist - they are UNIDENTIFIED flying objects. I hav

By the way, I did take your advice and read the lyrics. Not too bad. But the message is clear: "Open your mind, but not so much that you'll actually understand how any of these things work because it is irreverent to seek the answer to a mystery. Instead, just be like the mystics and enjoy the most superficial manifestation of the wonders that surround us instead of going deeper and uncovering more profound mysteries." Of course, the mystics use sexier language (i.e. obscurantist bullshit) - "feel, don't th

It seems like that's the message you want it to have (and not what someone would infer from reading the lyrics). Fair enough, it's a song and open to interpretation. As I wrote before, if it's just about nostalgically remembering those childhood when so many things seemed mysterious and reliving those moments again, fine. It's just that there's an enormous disconnect between your latest post and all that crap about lying scientists.

Ah I see now. That (rhyme thing) makes sense. Thanks for the clarification. I do agree that jumping on the ICP just for saying "miracles" is rather silly. Though if it interests you, when I was browsing for the article, I caught a glimpse of "ICP came out as Christian" or something like that (dunno what it was about). Again, none of my business but it may be relevant to you. Perhaps those other people commented based on other information (and not just the lyrics). The whole juggalo thing is fascinating thou

Obviously, a child's sense of wonder is different from a that of a scientist. We have not lost our sense of wonder. We have merely... upgraded it. Interestingly, Nature (while being a sneaky bitch) is also quite bountiful in that for every puzzle solved by science, we are given many more that are much more fascinating than the last.

Besides, the person in your example is just an idiot who cannot recognize a rhetorical question or an idle musing when he sees one. You are equating semantically challenged dou

Ach. Didn't finish my sentence. "To them I can only say - the day you've exhausted all the wonders of the physical world, I will cease to be revolted by your primal need to dismiss the wonders of nature-that-exists as mundane and look to flights of fancy as more satisfying "explanations" of those natural wonders". Something more? Something more than what? People that don't know much of that "what" appear so pathetic when they demand something "more" when they are clueless about the things they want to trans

A ) stop reducing EVERY argument to projecting your own failures with females. Not EVERYTHING is about getting laid. I talk starwars all day and then still manage to get laid. Anything you say "you should do X to get laid" is sexism. Thats assuming that women are in some way that men aren't. I assure you, for every guy out there going "rainbows are refractions of light!" there are JUST as many females saying the same thing.
And I'm not even like, women's lib or something, I'm a DUDE and I think you're ster

Nope, in your own words, you didn't claim I couldn't get laid, you claimed I couldn't get laid without paying, right from the start. Or were you lying? In which case you claimed I couldn't get laid at all.

I don't know why you got modded 'troll' - I guess that dude can't get laid without paying for it.:P

Do you say "look honey- a rainbow, isn't it pretty?" Or do you say, "look at the refractions of light caused by rain droplets creating a prism effect at an angle we can see, isn't the spectral composition of the light pleasing to the photo receptors in the cornea?".

Your dilemma here isn't about mysticism vs. science. It's about nerdspeak vs. normalspeak. If your partner is as much of a geek as you are then you can get away with nerdspeak and still make with the hot and steamy. (I cut a middle path - "hey sweetie look at that awesome rainbow! I love physics!")

Honestly, the world is a lot more impressive if you realise that all of these magical-seeming phenomena result

Ah, but the people in the ICP would tell you that the rainbow is "natural" and the scientific explanation, if presented by a scientist, is a lie, and makes them angry. If your girlfriend tells you that she agrees the rainbow is pretty, in your example, then as an avid Juggalo and in supporting their arguments, you should become "pissed" and tell her it is a lie.

Also, swear at magnets and ask how they work, but do not accept any actual scientific explanation or attempt any research. It is a "miracle".

I don't think he was offended. He merely expressed contempt and disdain. There's a difference. The latter usually applies to relatively harmless things that are also abhorrent. For what it's worth, I do agree with you. Why are we talking seriously about a creepy little band and its creepy little fans on/. ?? This is at best a Reddit/Digg issue.

On the other hand, when you realize your attraction for someone of the opposite sex is based on hormones, pheromones, and your subconscious calculation that your genetics mixed with theirs would generate offspring with a better chance of longterm viability, it does take some of the mystery and excitement out of your irrational longing for their booty...

hogs don't actually enjoy it. I know it's just a saying, but it's a saying based on the false belief that hogs and pigs like to be dirty. When the only time you see a hog is in an unnatural environment...don't presume to know what it likes;)

funny that someone thought to down rate me, someone who has raised hogs and has seen many of them in the wild, as "overrated" - and then uprate you for just repeating the same thing someone else said.

"X!"

"No, X isn't actually true" - overrate -1

"X!" - insightful +4!

Hogs don't like being in mud in the first place. The only reason they are, is because they were *put there*. They are naturally a fairly clean animal; if well kept in a humane way, they'll always poop in one place, as far away from their food as they can. What 99.9999% of the population has seen, or heard described, is instead a nasty pen that the hog finds extremely depressing. They get into a cycle where they try to clean themselves off, but instead get dirtier. Sometimes, in a large open area, they'll do what elephants do - they'll cover themselves in a light layer of dirt/mud as a sort of natural sunscreen. They don't do this because they enjoy the process, they do it because they're in the sun and have no shade.

Now, go find a feral hog and instead you'll find a relatively clean animal (sans the snout itself) that looks nothing like his hog-farm kept brothers. And that's the point - hog farms are un-natural, and hogs are known to be extremely depressed at hog farms. To presume that you know what someone "enjoys" because of their behavior when they're at a cruel place they obviously don't want to be at, is silly.

Even sillier is presuming that hogs like it when their fleeing in terror at a rodeo during some sort of pig wrestling event. I suppose the bulls enjoy the rodeo too, and that's why they're so happy and pleased to give the rider such a fun time?

true, but that again means mud merely facilitates the mitigation of a problem, and not that rolling in mud is done for the purpose of mud-rolling in and of itself. Which you seem to be suggesting, but I'm just trying (for whatever reason) to make clear.

The long pig is generally a clean animal too. However, every once in a while on hot summer days long pig young will find a pit of mud to enjoy. They have been known to make structures out of the mud. The adult of the species will indulge occasionally as well (generally only wading through it or squeezing it through the digits of their fore-paws). However small social groups of adult or adolescent long pig will actually play in the mud if one of their number accidentally falls in. This behaviour is more

I raised hogs as a kid. Both in a "regular" sty and in a no-mud sty with grates for waste elimination and misters for cooling.

It's not a scientific observation, but I felt like the satisfaction hogs felt rolling in the mud was palpable -- and only matched by the satisfaction they seemed to take in rubbing up against posts to scratch itches.

FWIW, the hogs in the no-mud enclosures were content to lie next to the misters (in shade, of course), but they did not radiate contentment the way the pigs that rol

you're mentioning something that you're then not even considering; there's another factor in play here. Remember, correlation does not equal causation;)

The hogs that had mud to roll around in were then able to move about within their pen without being affected much by the sun. They'd merely need to roll around in the mud again once they started getting hot.

The other hogs had to sit in one particular area, not moving around, otherwise they got hot.

PS - if you had any hogs at all that "radiate[d] contentment" then wow - that's major, considering the extreme prevalence of depression among swine at farms.

We weren't a swine farm, we were a small farm with a couple dozen sheep, a few goats, up to a dozen hogs at times, a mess of chickens, and random other animals when someone wanted to (geese, emus, llamas, etc). The hog enclosures were pretty large, included about an acre of woods for them to root around in... I think that, and the attention they got fr

Surprisingly, most of the fans seemed to enjoy the science lesson, but representatives of the band didn't seem to think it was funny.

What's surprising about that? ICP is completely tongue-in-cheek. They're the KISS of rap. Almost all their lyrics are totally facetious, and I've never really gotten the blind hatred toward them (which they love and use for marketing, by the way).

One of the members said this video was intentional and that they have a movie coming out just in time. I think they know exactly wha

I think the reason Miracles was so infamous is due to a couple factors, as follows,

A. Many people hate ICP.
B. Many people are on the internet.
C. ICP made a video metaphorically referring to some phenomenal (yet understandable) facts of nature (albeit explainable, to an extent) as miracles.
D. Said intertards took them literally, espousing their hate on a fantastical new platform.
E. Or it was an epic trolling, and 2,000,000+ got got.

Point to take away: people like to criticize, act snarky, and show disdain towards those they dislike. ICP is no different. The real miracle is that 2,000,000 cumulatively made fun of about an ICP video.

And as an aside, I highly doubt many of the critics of that video on the net could fully understand electromagnetism, such as the fact that relativistic transformations of transverse EM waves can swap the E & M field, for they are two sides of the same coin depending on the Lorenz transformation, or perhaps give a full analysis of Lenz's law and its implications.

That vocabulary we have to describe something (especially the "how" of something) means different things to different people. To those who do understand the vocabulary, the words have real meaning and do impart understanding. To others, the words are simply labels, or even worse -- an avenue of misunderstanding.

Just because pop sci uses a common vocabulary to describe the actual science (which requires heavy math to truly "understand") doesn't mean that that vocabulary is the entirety of the scientific gestalt. In fact, it is merely the tip of the iceberg. Of course, there are fields where this is actually the case (the pop sci version is approximately equal to the actual version). The hard sciences (called "hard" for that very reason) are definitely not like that. This is what makes some online boards so amusing

I think the point is that the fundamental forces are getting to the point in physics where things can't necessarily entirely be explained in terms of simpler phenomenon.

Still far from that point. As I said, give it time. And anyway, that's a digression. The point was simply to be more aware of what the word "understanding" means in this context before saying that we don't have a "true understanding" of something. What would qualify as true understanding anyway? In other words (and the following is the only thing I need have written), if you think that explanation A doesn't give a "true understanding" of phenomenon X, what qual

This by the way is why it is somewhat meaningless to refer to "science" when praising or critiquing it. It's like referring to "school" when discussing curricular issues - there are different grades and different levels of competence even within the same grade.

Anyone that listens to recorded music, including ICP fans, depend on people who understand magnets.

Now magnetic monopoles... that's a whole different game.

I'm curious as to what triggered this attack on scientists. Something has to be up... I'm kind of surprised ICP is lashing out like this. I'm thinking it's from the shots scientists have been taking on their belief of God.

And as an aside, I highly doubt many of the critics of that video on the net could fully understand electromagnetism, such as the fact that relativistic transformations of transverse EM waves can swap the E & M field, for they are two sides of the same coin depending on the Lorenz transformation, or perhaps give a full analysis of Lenz's law and its implications.

While that might be true there is this thing called 'google' and I'm told it can help you find information, rather than be content in releasing a song where you espouse idiocy and insult the very people who uncovered the answer to your query. I believe 'Violent murder-dick' or whatever his name is accused 'scientists' of some sort of deception, rather than 'googling magnets'

The noise over Miracles wasn't about internet trolls getting uppity just for fun (though it is fun). These guys didn't say, "hey these things are amazing" when they called them miracles. They suggested that these various natural things were no less than god's direct intervention in the physical world and implied that they couldn't be satisfactorily explained by science. Then they said they don't want to hear from any scientists about any of these subjects because, "[those] motherfuckers lyin'". Yeah, scientists of the world are part of a giant conspiracy to lie about where rainbows come from... fuckwits.

That's not simple awe for amazing things, that's straight-up mental retardation painted in makeup to match. Oh and I almost forgot... yes, they're some of the shittiest rappers in history.

But yes, this assumes it wasn't an intentional showboat of unbelievable stupidity on their part to get some attention for careers that went down the toilet over 10 years ago. If that's the case, then shame on them for misleading the young trash of America down the science-hater path so they can desperately try to make their next mortgage payment.

The noise over Miracles wasn't about internet trolls getting uppity just for fun (though it is fun). These guys didn't say, "hey these things are amazing" when they called them miracles. They suggested that these various natural things were no less than god's direct intervention in the physical world and implied that they couldn't be satisfactorily explained by science. Then they said they don't want to hear from any scientists about any of these subjects because, "[those] motherfuckers lyin'". Yeah, scient

The other moral? Don't rewrite your initial comment extensively, especially now that Slashcode has once again activated the 'tiny text input field' feature in the text mode of/. which makes reading more than half a sentence at once ackward.

Is a band for idiots, morons and the wilfully ignorant. I met Violent J at a Station promo back ~95/96 in the Toledo area. Just a complete dick. Their music is crap. Their fans are worse. They are the only band that would be known in an Idiocracy style world.

I think this group should skip trying to teach them science, it's a lost cause, and instead provide instruction on birth control and distribute free condoms. Only you can help control the Juggalo population!

That won't help. It's not genetic and it's not a learned behavior. You're either born liking ICP or you're born disliking ICP

So if it's not genetic... and it's not learned... and you're born with ICP+ or ICP-...

You're saying that the ICP+/- trait is developed in utero due to either random chance or fetal environment?

Are you saying that children of drug users grow up to be fans of ICP?! If so, that's a pretty powerful disincentive for expectant mothers to do drugs... you may have hit upon a miracular sociological prevention tool... think of the countless lives you have improved and/or saved!

Fucking magnets, how do they work?
And I don't wanna talk to a scientist
Y'all motherfuckers lying, and getting me pissed

That's unambiguously anti-science. Any attempt to say they weren't being literal is simply stupid. Insane Clown Posse is stupid and supports willful ignorance. Pretending otherwise to try to get a small amount of science education done might help a tiny bit but at the end of the day, let's not kid ourselves about what this crap band stands for. The fact that when the band found out about this event they tried to actively prevent it shows what they really care about. These are the worst sort of ignorant fucktards possible, the sort of ignorant fucktards who not only take pride in their own ignorance but actively prevent other people from trying to educate. The fact that then had their security goons try to take away the camera is simply one more aspect of how absolutely despicable ICP is.

Fucking magnets, how do they work? And I don't wanna talk to a scientist Y'all motherfuckers lying, and getting me pissed

That's unambiguously anti-science."

I agree, but to further your point I would also add that the entire Juggalo "movement" (if you could call it that) is really a not-too-subtle attempt to groom the next generation of gullible, ill-informed, bigoted and unnecessarily prejudicial right-wing, religious conservative voters--voters incapable of smelling a rat

I mean I gather it has something to do with quantum spin and relativity and symmetry breaking and virtual gauge boson force-carriers. But I'm somewhat uncertain on the details (and I don't mean in a Heisenberg way). Perhaps the band is just voicing their frustration that there seem to be so few entry level texts that cover the subject in lay terms.