So genitalia are more evil and less reasonable than Hitler? We all have genitalia and we all have seen them naked. What's bad or unreasonable about them?

IANAL. Displaying sexual images to minors is illegal in most parts of the world, including the part of the world where Gentoo Organisation is legally responsible. Displaying national socialist images is not.

So genitalia are more evil and less reasonable than Hitler? We all have genitalia and we all have seen them naked. What's bad or unreasonable about them?

IANAL. Displaying sexual images to minors is illegal in most parts of the world, including the part of the world where Gentoo Organisation is legally responsible. Displaying national socialist images is not.

Yes, and in some countries you dont have "freedom of speech". for example, south africa, where i live. for example, you can be arrested for using racist language or flashing around such things as swastikas and drie-skeles. i do feel torn in two parts with this subject. honestly, i beleive in freedom of speech. but i dont believe in hatred nor violence, which swastikas and the like tend to invoke. but i am not a great-enough man to know where to draw the line. if you do, you're a better man than i._________________Get the f*ck outta here if you ain't down with the clown!

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I'll put in my $0.02. I'm an American, and I recognize the freedom of speech angle. But, for four reasons, I think we shouldn't allow them: It could cause legal trouble in Germany; symbols in an unclear context could lead to offending people; it's not on-topic for most of the forums; and the Forums affect Gentoo's reputation as well as the posters'.

First, like the original poster said, the Gentoo Forums is an international community, and it could cause trouble in Germany for both Gentoo itself and people who link to it. There's no sense in risking legal action over a few avatars. If someone is posting something in rememberance, they could (ostensibly) write something without using the symbols, which would offend fewer people and remove the liability.

Second, they can be construed as offensive (and are by many people, including myself. Despite the "free speech" argument, many Americans are just as quick to condemn "hate crimes".) when they aren't clearly explained. Let's say someone uses a swastika as their avatar--how are we to interpret that? Is it in rememberance? Sympathy with the victims? Sympathy with the Nazis? There's no context, and you can be sure someone will misinterpret it.

Third, this is a Linux forum. I hate to suggest this, because in a way it is censorship, but, for the most part, we're here to discuss Gentoo Linux. OTW aside, political things don't get discussed in the other forums, and I think it's reasonable to confine political speech (especially potentially controversial speech) to forums where it's applicable. Nobody claims it's censorship when posts get moved between forums or if someone complains that something is off-topic.

Fourth, even if this imagery was confined to OTW, we have to remember that the Forums are a representation of Gentoo. Despite the fact that, as Slashdot says, "Comments are the property of the poster", many people will look at a project's forums as a sign of the maturity (or not) of the developers, and a sign of how approachable they are. We could be scaring off potential users.

Oh, and one last thing[/list]. Even if the United States of America or $INSERT_OTHER_COUNTRY_HERE is a democracy with the right to freedom of speech above all else, the Gentoo Forums need not be. I don't see any reason why the forum admins need to put themselves and Gentoo's reputation at risk so a few posters can have their choice of avatar. I think that, as a support community, we should value being approachable, helpful, and friendly over allowing users to express anything they want. There are plenty of other places to do that--if you want to make a personal website and put up what you like, you can do that, and it won't potentially harm Gentoo or offend other users. We need to think about this more as "what's best for Gentoo?" than "what's best for each person's beliefs about freedom of speech?", because the Gentoo Forums are the Gentoo Forums!_________________Visit my website.

This is nowhere as inflammatory a symbol as the swastika, but I'd like to talk about the St George's Flag of England (this is the red cross on a White background). As well as being a symbol of a patriotic English person, it's also had a lot of bad history. For example the crusaders wore the red cross in the name of God and England, as they raped, murdered and generally were pretty unpleasant across Europe to the Middle East.

Much more recently the St George's flag has been a symbol of the far right movement in England. Worn by the National Front (boo hiss!!), Fascist Skinheads, The British National Party (BNP; the apparently "reborn" version of the NF). About 10 years ago wearing this flag (wrongly?) would give the impression that you were one of these fascists.

However, gradually over the last decade, the St George's flag has been reclaimed from the fascists! I think that this is mainly due to the massive usage of the flag at the last few World Cups and Europen Cup football tournaments. I guess there is still some unpleasantness associated with the flag elsewhere in Europe, due to its association with footbal violence of some (very few) English football"fans". But overall the St Georges flag is now free of the fascist taint. A Very Welcome Thing IMHO.

I would think that the swastika is a lot more ingrained in people's minds as being evil, but how great it would be if it could be reclaimed from the fascists as a symbol for good!! Leave them with nothing!

Cheers
Ferg_________________Climb up it, kayak down it + make sure it runs on GNU/Linux
"cease to exist, giving my goodbye, drive my car into the ocean,
you think I'm dead, but i sail away, on a wave of mutilation!"

I've not read the whole thread so what follows is possibly repeated along the thread but it is overall my oppinion and should be considered as such.

Although the nazi symbols can be offensive for some, may not be for others. In Portugal there's no problem with the swastica being played with or made fun with or used for any kind of purpose I know. I have friends which have them in their bycicles or in their room.
For those who have seen the "Da Vinci Code" movie, Robert Langdon (Tom Hanks) mentions briefly that the symbol although used by nazism is not inherent to nazism. It was used for other purposes many centuries before.

I see no problem in using these symbols anywhere in the forums. If someone is sensitive about this, you can choose not to see the avatars. It's your choice. This way I can use (If I wanted) the swastica as avatar and you could freely not see it by disabling the avatar visibility option.

Or else, we will start on a censorship journey on political symbols which has no logical reason whatsoever.

Actually my impression was it was started by someone who objected to the imagery of another 2 users avatars.

In this thread and its references four "incidents" can be found. I'm sure you'll find more if you search for them. It's not about those isolated incidents, though, but about not accepting those who want to promote a hate-mongering "philosophy" here.

[*]First, like the original poster said, the Gentoo Forums is an international community, and it could cause trouble in Germany for both Gentoo itself and people who link to it. There's no sense in risking legal action over a few avatars. If someone is posting something in rememberance, they could (ostensibly) write something without using the symbols, which would offend fewer people and remove the liability.

I am sure the gentoo forums cannot be considered as a website in endorsement of nazi philosophy. Any legal action by linking to the forums whether they contain a stray image vaguely reminiscent of Nazi Germany would be unjustified. People should not bend to such irrational laws.

ThinkingInBinary wrote:

[*]Second, they can be construed as offensive (and are by many people, including myself. Despite the "free speech" argument, many Americans are just as quick to condemn "hate crimes".) when they aren't clearly explained. Let's say someone uses a swastika as their avatar--how are we to interpret that? Is it in rememberance? Sympathy with the victims? Sympathy with the Nazis? There's no context, and you can be sure someone will misinterpret it.

Isn't the interpretation open to you, if it isn't fully explained? As already pointed out a million times, different things cause offence to different people. We cannot simply go banning everything based on that.

ThinkingInBinary wrote:

[*]Third, this is a Linux forum. I hate to suggest this, because in a way it is censorship, but, for the most part, we're here to discuss Gentoo Linux. OTW aside, political things don't get discussed in the other forums, and I think it's reasonable to confine political speech (especially potentially controversial speech) to forums where it's applicable. Nobody claims it's censorship when posts get moved between forums or if someone complains that something is off-topic.

Avatars and politically charged signatures do not hinder the working of the forum, unlike off-topic posts. So the two really aren't comparable. The avatar _is supposed_ to convey something about you. Same goes for the signature. If a user wishes to communicate that he/she is sympathetic to the neo-Nazi cause, that is just taking the bad with the good.

ThinkingInBinary wrote:

[*]Fourth, even if this imagery was confined to OTW, we have to remember that the Forums are a representation of Gentoo. Despite the fact that, as Slashdot says, "Comments are the property of the poster", many people will look at a project's forums as a sign of the maturity (or not) of the developers, and a sign of how approachable they are. We could be scaring off potential users.
[/list]

Well if they do that, they are being irrational.

ThinkingInBinary wrote:

Oh, and one last thing[/list]. Even if the United States of America or $INSERT_OTHER_COUNTRY_HERE is a democracy with the right to freedom of speech above all else, the Gentoo Forums need not be. I don't see any reason why the forum admins need to put themselves and Gentoo's reputation at risk so a few posters can have their choice of avatar. I think that, as a support community, we should value being approachable, helpful, and friendly over allowing users to express anything they want. There are plenty of other places to do that--if you want to make a personal website and put up what you like, you can do that, and it won't potentially harm Gentoo or offend other users. We need to think about this more as "what's best for Gentoo?" than "what's best for each person's beliefs about freedom of speech?", because the Gentoo Forums are the Gentoo Forums!

We are approachable friendly and above all _Not Like Nazis_, i.e. to say, we do not force our philosophy onto others. Freedom of speech is essential to knowledge and fostering of knowledge. You cannot shunt out the unpleasant portions of human history just because of some assumed stigma with a few images.

Just remember, for every Nazi sympathetic Gentoo user, there are thousands who are in direct opposition to Nazi philosophy._________________At some stage, the Hindus locked on to the nation destroying concepts like ahimsa (non-violence), shanti (peace), satya (truth) — the ‘ass’ syndrome.

Last edited by runningwithscissors on Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:39 pm; edited 2 times in total

Thank you falcon_za, I find that the way you calmly explain your point of vue with respect for other is exemplary especially with such a subject.

Philantrop, personally, I don't find that putting this flag as avatar is

Philantrop wrote:

promote a hate-mongering "philosophy"

If this user feel well with such an avatar because it represents its current feelings, I am ready to accept to see its image.

If this user signature or avatar is really offending, (for example, one man with this flag crushing under its foot a 6 arms star), my opinion is that some moderator should ask him by private message to change them and eventually to ban him/her if he/she does not want to change.

Although I do not like hate-related symbolism to appear on such a wonderful thing as the gentoo forums, which represents an excellent community, I would like to point out that symbols, imagery, etc are only that: symbols.

The problem appears when symbols stop being that, and their users start acting on what those symbols mean to them. (Would you like to see Gentoo Forums filled with "that fuck*** jew is using Gentoo, godamit" or things like that, no, I wouldn't like that. I would neither like to see "let's kill those damn nazis" either. hate is hate, kill is kill, doesn't matter who is doing it).

Promoting any kind of hatred seems to me as the wrong type of message we're looking for. This is supposed to be a friendly place for people who have at least one thing in common - our love of Gentoo (and occasionally the bugs that come from it :)

Freedom of anything is only to the point of not harming others.

Sinse an avatar is indeed, as was poitned before, an image to be asociated with a person, the usage of said symbols is intended to label oneself, an act of pride. As such any symbols used in avatars are not simply a picture - it's a display of support for certain ideology. If such ideology teaches hatred I don't think we should allow it.

Sinse an avatar is indeed, as was poitned before, an image to be asociated with a person, the usage of said symbols is intended to label oneself,

Ah, that's a fallacy. If I use an avatar with a broken window, does it mean I hate windows?
Why should an avatar label its user? Maybe I use the avatar just because it's fun? If a person uses as an avatar a photo of a monkey, does it mean the user thinks his image resembles the one of a monkey? Surely not, if a girl, probably it's because the monkey is cute, if a boy, probably because the monkey is a macho-dominator species or something.

Can't a math teacher use the swastica to teach some interesting symmetry properties of a non-convex object? Can't I use this symbol to relate it with my research work on symmetry properties of non-convex objects?

Moreover, I may find a swastica like image inside a fractal object and use it as my avatar. Again, does it mean anything except that I may find it interesting to find such an object in a fractal? Does this even mean I'm a mathematician? Of course not, I'm not even a mathematician, so I guess one's avatar means nothing besides that is an avatar... which is in my oppinion void in content... although that may not have been its original use as a concept.

I had a simple way to look at this. The Gentoo Forums aren't a country or have a government of laws. It's a private site (and by private I mean you can't post anonymously.) They can establish any regulations or restrictions they want. Just use censorship. The mods would have good reasons, plenty of them, as littered throughout the pages of this thread. I'm American, don't dictate ideas of free speech and all of that to me. This is a website with images, we're not talking about a U.S. Courtroom with a questionable banner hanging on it. Also, since the forums exist in lawlessness, those who see something they don't like... look, everyone eventually sees something they don't like. Are we supposed to, for example, somehow prevent all the racists from running into people of other races? Not all of things in life will be to your liking. It's just how it is. So stop trying to cater to people because the "goal" you'd have is impossible. Whatever attempts you make will simply piss someone else off.

So let them censor it, or maybe not. All they need to do is put a little note in the TOS saying they aren't responsible for anything you'd find on the forums. That's all you need to deal with moral obligation. And those who are really upset, just tell your browser to not load the image. Hope this made sense... _________________ProtonMail - Free encrypted e-mail from Switzerland
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You know, the worst thing about a Nazi avatar is it's TEDIOUS and BORING. I sincerely doubt we have a bunch of boneheads using Gentoo who are out to spread neo-Nazi propaganda. I suspect any use of this is as a troll, and a trite one, as well.

Clearly though, it still works wonderfully, so I can only be so critical.

For me, a Nazi avatar marks the poster as a pubescent troublemaker. Serves a positive purpose this way. Sort of a scarlet letter or brand across the forehead that says "unoriginal and uninteresting."

As an American, and I've pointed this out before, I can't go on to a single message forum on the internet without hearing my country slagged in its entirety. I've never, ever, suggested or asked for anyone to be censored, in part because a lot of the criticisms (though not all) have some validity and moral outrage is perhaps the only sane reaction, but more because...

No one has any inherent right *not* to be offended. I've heard the term "hurt" used in this thread repeatedly. Offense is different. What we are talking about is people *getting their feelings hurt*. You either have an atmosphere of freedom or you start protecting peoples' feelings. And when you get into protecting peoples' hurt feelings, you really make a paranoid environment, and you encourage people to get softer and softer, which is in no one's interest.

As another (Curtis I think) pointed out, you don't confront evil or authoritarianism or whatever you want to call it by driving something underground. You confront it by airing it out in the open and dealing with it. The biggest threat isn't the guy with the swastika armband or the sheet over his head, or knuckleheads like Fred Phelps, it's the stealth racist - it's the guy who works "under the wire," subverting peoples rights or outright committing violence covertly. It's the guy hidden in the shadows of the alley down the street from the gay bar. It's guys like the Washington sniper, picking off people in stealth for weeks on end. That is terror. Guys with nazi armbands are mostly clowns; overgrown little boys who have been beaten down by the world so badly that they need to align themselves with a big dumb movement to feel any sense of empowerment. You don't see, for example, many racial attacks anywhere from neo-Nazi skins who act alone - they act in groups. They're *pussies*. They act tough until they have to stand alone. There may be a few exceptions but I haven't seen any.

The Nazi symbol is offensive. Who born in the 20th Century other than some folks in Asia (I actually rode in a co-worker's car - he was from Asia, he had a little gold swastika hanging from his rear view mirror as a good luck charm) does not have an immediate visceral reaction to the swastika? It's a powerful symbol with a powerful referent.

At the same time, this is a forum for Gentoo Linux. Is an open policy of freedom of speech more likely to promote this distribution, or are friendly forums devoid of acne-scarred trolls more likely to attract people? My point is I can see the arguments on both sides - if we were talking about government censorship, I'd be ready to get physical over my right to say whatever the hell I wanted. This is a forum for promotion and support of Gentoo Linux.

What's truly sad is that nationalism, racism, politics, etc. have become an issue. I'd wager that if all of us who participate in these forums suddenly found ourselves together in a giant Woodstock scenario, most of this tension would melt away. I'd wager that with all of our individual quirks and traits we're probably more alike than different, given the population as a whole. It's sad that more of your industry standard peace, love, and understanding doesn't stomp harder in the Linux world.

Whatever you want to call a private entity choosing to restrict speech (yes, this is not technically censorship, but for the purpose of this discussion, that's a semantic issue), it *is* a slippery slope.

I am willing to endure any and all symbols or speech that impugns, denigrates, or outright insults my race, nationality, physical appearance, sexual orientation, whatever, as the price of freedom of expression. And I do. I admit that it is probably not anywhere near the level of a Jewish person having to endure a symbol that stands for genocide, but I am fairly certain, given how much thought I've given to this issue over the years, that even if I were, I would grit my teeth and bear it.

Everything has a cost; freedom's is one of the highest, but I think it's worth it. The Jews are one of the most resilient groups of people on the earth, and even the most cursory understanding of their history suggests that they can easily withstand a handful of knuckle-draggers on some internet message boards.

I am not enthusiastic about this kind of speech, ever, and especially in this forum. And yes, the swastika is one of the most universally recognized symbols of evil (can anyone think of another symbol that evokes more disgust, the world 'round? I can't), but consider for a moment the motivations in using this as an avatar: to inflame, insult, and provoke, mainly, moreso than actually advocating a bankrupt ideology which appeals for the most part only to the already converted and to people who tend to be complete losers with no sense of self-worth, confidence, strength, or individualism.

In this latter case, where the purpose is to advocate an ideology, I think what this tends to mainly do is label the person using the symbol as a loser. The use of the symbol should make you lose respect for the person using it, more than offend.

As for Germany, while I understand its policy regarding the swastika, I think it's always a bad idea to fight authoritarianism with authoritarianism. Maybe one of the reasons these laws exist is because idiots keep giving modern Germans shit for their past, and things that happened before they were born. Cultural, economic, and political conditions led to Nazism, and I am fairly certain that if these forces arose in the same combination in any culture or country, that you would have similar results. There's nothing special about Germans in this regard. Nazism was an expression, really, of the worst of human impulses, not of merely German ones. I cringe whenever a flamewar results in some modern German being taken to task for the Third Reich. It's like me being taken to task for slavery or internment camps (the US's legacy), and I won't even go into extrajudicial detention and the myriad sins against humanity my government is perpetrating in my name as I sit here comfortably reading an internet forum when I should be out, probably throwing molotov cocktails or something.

I watch here in my own country as people I thought I had common ground and common understanding with fall all over themselves to rationalize all manner of tyranny, abuse of basic human and/or individual rights, the minute they become slightly frightened. I listen as the rational are dismissed in favor of listening to the most emotionally (irrationally) charged. Few really understand the concept of freedom; that it requires endurance and gritted teeth, and in civilized countries, this mainly involves being offended, sucking it up, and saying that freedom is more important than my primal need to feel safe and happy.

As it is a slippery slope, then, the only two solutions I can see working in the long run is either allow everything, or allow nothing. Because once you protect one group of people from getting their feelings hurt (and you may think that is reductive; it is not - in point of fact, the swastika itself does not physically injure, enslave, or otherwise infringe on the rights of anyone), others will come whining about wanting the same protection.

I really do wish that people would stop using dumb symbols like the swastika, or nudity. Both are trite, boring, and overplayed Clear Channel expressions of the desire to annoy and disrupt.

Oh, and the swastika is no more work-safe, at least in my company, than nudity. I'd get fired for having a Nazi symbol on my screen because of its potential to annoy and harass. If I told you what company I worked for, and how progressive its policies were, you'd be fairly shocked, given its recent behavior.

I guess I'm on the side of allowing the avatar, but just *barely*. However the only reasonable alternative is to ban all avatars. While I understand and agree that the swastika probably is the most universally offensive symbol, that may not be enough to stop a fair amount of disruption, not only from people who are truly offended by other kinds of avatars, but also from free speech advocates who are going to complain about everything from crosses to national flags, just to be pains in the ass (And I'm not being critical of them either; I sympathize with this tendency)._________________http://www.dataswamp.net

ps. If we were to start banning symbols I would INSIST that all religious iconography of any sort to be banned as well. Since religions are also responsible for millions of deaths around the world. FAR FAR FAR FAR more deaths than the nazis could have ever dreamed about. And the worst part is that Religions are STILL killing people in the name $DIETY to this very day. Hitler died 50+ years ago.....

Absolutely. How about a rule saying no political or religious avatars as well as none that would be allowed in a PG-13 film? (no porno avatars.) That should cover about anything offensive while not making a myriad of rules to have to follow, such as I can post a pic of Bill Clinton but not of G.W. Bush, I can post a picture of a sawed-off and bloody hand (a la Saw) but not boobs, etc. And the mods can enforce it as it's not exactly a democracy here._________________Unix is user friendly- it is just picky who its friends are.

This is a hard one. One of the things that is not spoken of is the Nazis complete control of information/media. If a modern neo-Nazi wishes to use those symbols that then take to the streets.

Or if they wish to use them, ensure the subject listing includes "STUPID PERSON" because posting such a symbol without having the courage to stand and be held accountable is offensive. And an individual, assuming they following the Nazi doctrine of control information, like that would not be a fan of sharing ideas or education.

Freedom of speech is essential to knowledge and fostering of knowledge. You cannot shunt out the unpleasant portions of human history just because of some assumed stigma with a few images.

okay, i too havent been following the whole thread, but from what ive read, heres my thoughts. first up with the quote above, i dont think the user bearing a racist avatar is trying to share a piece of history with us. despite what a symbol might have meant before "nazi germany", the modern use of the symbols is the nazi way.

Quote:

Freedom of anything is only to the point of not harming others.

Sinse an avatar is indeed, as was poitned before, an image to be asociated with a person, the usage of said symbols is intended to label oneself, an act of pride. As such any symbols used in avatars are not simply a picture - it's a display of support for certain ideology. If such ideology teaches hatred I don't think we should allow it.

must intelligent thing said throughout the thread. i guess its basically drawing a line. i mean obviously you cant ban all avatars. just now you'll ban mine cos you a vegitarian. but as whats-his-face said, freedom of anything is only to the of no harm. now whilst nazis believe in mass killing of humans, the colonol only slaughters chickens. i dont know, think im putting im a bad argument here.

agh, fregg it, SPREAD THE LOVE![/quote]_________________Get the f*ck outta here if you ain't down with the clown!

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I'm from Chile but I'm currently studying as an exchange student in GeorgiaTech, Atlanta (in the US, for international readers). I read in the news a while ago some girls were suing GeorgiaTech because they were forbidden from expressing their belief that "God hates fags" or something like that publicly on campus.

I'm reminded of this because one of the comments I heard about the whole matter was that Free Speech is good because it lets you know who the assholes are. It was a tongue-in-cheek comment, but I can't help but finding truth in it. One of the advantages of letting people use Nazi symbols and such as avatars is that it lets you know beforehand that they're ignorant jerks not worth wasting your time with.

First I want to say, that if someone uses a Nazi symbol, he dosen't do this, because he thinks it is cute, he does it because he is a Nazi and he want's to express this.

Secondy there are laws of ethics, which schould be followed by everyone, even by a forum in the greyzone of the internet. If you don't think so, then you should ask yourself why there are laws and what they are good for. Laws in ethics are simple : If something offends a group that is big enought than it is offending. For this case of Nazi symbols, this offends min. about 99% of all germans, and perhaps the whole rest of the people living in the european union.

And the last thing I wan't so say that this issue is drawing a lot of negative publicity. I really don't wannt to see some headline like "Gentoo : The Nazi Linux herd" in Bild, Sun or in some other really bad newspaper. So end this now. Bann all ethical offending content and that's it.

Who gets to decide what is "ethically offending content"? Where do we draw the line? We might as well shut the entire forum down because someone, somewhere, will find *something* offensive about *EVERYTHING* sooner or later.

ScoTch, there are a lot of people out there that do things just to be dumb, or as they think, funny, without any real hatred behind it. It's a statement they make that says, "Look at me, I did something OBSCENE!!! I am SO COOL!!!" It's like the pretty vile and violent lyrics pervading rap and hip-hop. Yeah, they say they beat their ho's and shoot police, but when these guys are actually interviewed by the news or E!, most of them could be the guy that sits a row ahead in my college classes and not a hardened drug dealer or thug. It's all for show, just like the guy that puts the swastika for his avatar.

Now I do not condone nor excuse this behavior- either the thuggery and drug dealing nor neo-Nazism, but "for show" is a 99.99% probability of what's going on here. If the guy was a real neo-Nazi, I am sure that his posts would tell everybody that in a hurry._________________Unix is user friendly- it is just picky who its friends are.

You Germans not able to live without rules! You need rules for everything!
You will definitly die without rules. I agree. It's your special mentality,
but, please, allow to other nations do like they want and can.

OMG - This is so stupid.

I'm so sorry but it is not. The truth can not be stupid.
Or if it stupid it stay the truth anyway.

Tenobok wrote:

That's like saying that you Russians do always need a dictator that misuses his power (like Putin), because of your special mentality.

That is not far from the truth. Please, trust me.
All nations have special mentality and there is nothing bad with it.

Tenobok wrote:

You are just repeating some fucked up stereotypes which are as far away from the truth than Sankt-Petersburg is from Hawaii.
What exactly qualifies you for being an expert for Germans?