A New York Times reporter interviewed a group of young monks under house arrest in Sichuan last month. Through interpreter, they all said that they wanted DL back so that they can kick all Han Chinese out of Tibetan Area which is around 25% of land mass of China. DL can say peaceful return. However, most of his supporters in the West or inside Tibet want independent. His return is just the first step. Given time and through economic integration, problem will be resolved. That is what happened to Hawaii, native Australians and North American Indians. The article said one third of post-1959 young Tibetans support DL. How about the other two third? Remember former Yugoslavia and present day Iraq, Sudan, Syria, Lybia. China will be a mess if DL succeeds. I do not understand why 90% of the protest originates from militant monks/nuns or nomads? I have not heard anything about Tibetans living in big cities in other part of China. Why do monks want independent? Don't they understand that it will never happen? 25% of land mass given to 6 miln Tibetans. How about the other 12% of land mass that Ughurs demand?

I believe that if the New York Times journalist went to a prison in Spain where Basque separatists are serving terms and if the journalists were to ask them whether they would like an independent Basque country, all of them would say yes. But if the journalist cared to ask the same questions to non-militant basques, he would have got mixed answers.
Since the journalist was in China, why did he not ask the same question to some fifty Tibetans who were not serving terms in a house and who are not monks nor nuns? I believe he would not have any difficulty to meet and speak to them. Why did he stick to the monks who have been arrested by the authorities only? Did he not know that their answer would be obvious?
It is clear therefore that the New York Times journalist was not trying to report in an impartial manner but had a definite agenda to adhere to.

"I have not heard anything about Tibetans living in big cities in other part of China."

You have short memory, don't you? Riots in 2008 began in Lhasa.

"Why do monks want independent? Don't they understand that it will never happen? 25% of land mass given to 6 miln Tibetans. How about the other 12% of land mass that Ughurs demand?"

Because nobody wants to live under foreign rule. It's not their fault that their ancestral homeland is vast. It is still their homeland. Very few Chinese live there, anyway. It shouldn't be such a blow to let go off it, but I understand they don't want to. Empires are generally loath to free their territorial possessions.

Why would the handful of Tibetans in those cities riot? How could they?

He wrote: "I do not understand why 90% of the protest originates from militant monks/nuns or nomads? I have not heard anything about Tibetans living in big cities in other part of China."

He was obviously meaning that only nomads and monks riot, but that urban dwellers do not, implying this is somehow a cultural issue, where only low-educated, superstitious Tibetans in the countryside and the monasteries revolt against their enlightened and benevolent rulers, while those who know better do not. This s patently false, as Tibetans from all backgrounds have joined the riots and expressed dissent against Chinese rule.

I gave you the names of a few big cities in other parts of China since you did not understand what is meant by big cities in other parts of China. It seems you are putting words in his mouth. He did not write that much.

Actually at one time Tibet was bigger than China and China was under the protection of Tibet. Should we say China is part of Tibet? Your mind is filled with propaganda. You, my friend, will never think for yourself.

Are you IN China? Have you ever READ a throughout history about China? You think it is ok that you can just blabbing about the little thing you hear from---I don't know, maybe from a fool just like you---and think what it is IS what it is? GO and learn Chinese first or you have no right to talk like this.

Actually, at one point, not so long ago, the United States of America did not exist at all. All the North America was populated by the Natives. The Europeans came and murdered almost all of the Natives and stole all their lands.

I think that as time goes on, the western countries will finally realise that there is no gain in using the poor Tibetans in an attempt to destabilise China. The campaign started in the early 1950s. At that time, the main agency through which the campaign was conducted was the CIA, but it failed. Then, after 1959, the western countries used the Dalai Lama and his followers as their main agent. The Dalai Lama was given all necessary financial and media support as well as honours, culminating with the infamous Nobel Peace Prize, but again the campaign to destabilise China was making no headway. China was either too big or too strong for such base subversive activities. Now, the campaign is conducted mainly through hapless monks, who are induced to immolate themselves. Here again, it seems that there is no way China can be destabilised.
Subversive activities by foreign countries work well in small countries like Libya. But they do not work in larger countries. Even in Syria and Iran, which are not big countries compared to China, subversive activities by foreign powers do not work. In China, with a population of 1.3 billion people, it is a loss of time and money to try to destabile it by using the Dalai Lama or such funny characters like Liu Xiabo. Cronies like Liu Xiabo are not common in China. You may have only one in 10 million people in China who are prepared, like Liu Xiabo, to sell themselves to foreign countries in order to destabilise their country. This means that you can get maybe 150 such cronies. But what are the effects of the subversive activities of 150 cronies in a country of 1.3 billion people? And, suppose that each such crony is paid 100,000 dollars per year, this means that the foreign country is disbursing 15 million dollars per year for no result at all. Added to that is the grant to the Dalai Lama and his terrorists. Let us assume that this grant amounts to 50 million dollars. On to of that there are the agency fees and media fees that have to be paid in order to keep the campaign running. These services do not come cheap, probably in the region of 100 million dollars per year. This means that tax payers in that foreign country are contributing some 165 million dollars per year to this useless campaign.

Get matured, Dalai Lama wants freedom for his people and his people want Dalai Lama back.
There are a lot of people who oppose the Chinese rule and go against China and join foreign powers for support. The recent violence in western Xinjiang province, and Tibetan separatists, Uyghur ethnic group too oppose China, Urumqi group, islamic separatists in Pamirs Plateau, ETIM militants attacked Kashgar policemen, suicide bombing in Kuqa, Aksu bombing, Hotan attack etc.
Now I don't think 150 people could have done this. There is 1 among every 8 Chinese who oppose China and more than a million people are practically fighting against China.

You should grow up my dear. There is a greater percentage of Americans who oppose the US Government that the percentage of Chinese opposing the Chinese Government.
The Dalai Lama is simply a pawn in the hands of the western countries. He is simply a paid agent of these countries. He does not want the freedom of the Tibetans but rather he wants to enslave them as he was enslaving them before.
Because of the biased articles in the western media, you have the impression that China is disintegrating. But you are simply one of the naive and stupid western readers of the western media. Your limited mind is unable to see through the agenda of the western media.
Terrorist bombing and suicide bombing is as common in the western countries and in other countries too as in China. Have you ever heard of 9/11. This was a terrorist destruction in the US.
There is a lady called Khebir who used to live in Xinjiang. When she was living in China, she was considered a terrorist and all western press shunned her. But when she moved to the US to carry out her terrorists activities against China, she suddenly became for the western media, a heroine.

9/11 was a terror attack by a terrorist organization and not a separatist attack by a separatist organization.
The Americans oppose US govt. on an institutional basis but in case of China the dispute is about the territorial and constitutional basis.
Its like, if the reader goes wrong he can be corrected but if the book by itself is wrong, what can be done to it other than discarding it.

Dalai Lama is the rightful ruler for Tibet. He doesn't need to be a pawn in the western hands and neither is he paid for anything. If what you said was true then he wouldn't have been allowed to step into India, as India was an enemy of the west when he entered India.
I have seen the man my self and have spoken to him as well. He doesn't talk any such insulting things about China, in fact he praises China for all the development and wealth it has achieved. But he strongly disagrees to what China is doing in the case of Tibet.
May be you don't know this but there is a document called the 17 point agreement which was signed by Lama making Tibet an integral part of China but reserving the control as a permanent local government.
but China repeatedly violated the 17 point agreement so Lama tried to dismiss the agreement. So he was attacked twice but he made it out alive and escaped to India.

Well one point to be considered is your claim that Dalai Lama enslaved Tibetan people. But logically it cannot be possible because if he had enslaved them, then the Tibetan people wouldn't oppose the Chinese annexing Tibet. In fact they would have been more than happy to welcome the Chines.
*The second point is that Dalai Lama never ruled over Tibet, he left Tibet as soon as he was crowned and came to India.

On what basis do you claim that Lama enslaved Tibetans. Please provide proof.

The Dalai Lama is a terrorist, too.
As to the rightful ruler of Tibet, it is the Chinese Government.
The Dalai Lama, who is a pawn of the western countries, was allowed to enter India because India was conniving with the CIA to separate Tibet from China.
So you have seen the Dalai Lama and have spoken to him. Millions of people have seen him and talked to him. He cannot do otherwise because he needs to beg funds in order to feed his followers.
As for the famous 17-point document, I too have a fifty-point document which states that I am the rightful owner and ruler of India. I wrote it and signed it myself and even my wife signed it too.
The Tibetans are Chinese and they like their Government. Only the Dalai Lama and his followers (who represent 5% of the Tibetan community) oppose the Chinese government.

I bet a lot of other people would like to sign that 51-point document you have prepared.

All joking aside, the situation is more complicated than that. I see the 17-point document as a legal re-enforcement of China's sovereignty in its province IN ADDITION to China's own belief that it is sovereign regardless of "paperwork".

Technically speaking, the UK does not have any single core constitutional documentation (only a set of "de facto" laws), thus in theory, some can argue that the UK "does not exist" but any and all would see that as just plain stupid. Thus, "paperwork" is not necessary for an entity to exist BUT legality merely adds physical substance to an otherwise trivial question.

From my point of view and also the point of view of 1.34 billion Chinese, the situation is very simple.
China, with a population of 1.34 billion people, is a country with defined boundaries. It has got a strong Government, a strong economy and perhaps also a strong military force with nuclear power to back it and also the possibility to destroy satellites in space.
A group of a few thousand terrorists, based in Dharamsala, with the financial and vocal support (but nothing else)of the western media would like China to give up a big chunk of its territory.
Do you find this rational and reasonable?
Let us consider another country, the USA. Like China, the USA is a country with defined boundaries. It has a population of 350 million people. It has a strong economy (albeit declining at least relatively though in absolute terms), a strong military force backed by nuclear arms and can even wage a successful war in space against the aliens. Suppose that a few thousand people (whoever they may be) request the Government of the USA to give them 25% of its territory, for whatever reason. Irrespective of however the USA acquired these lands, do you really think that the USA will grant 25% of its territory to these few thousand people?
I think the joke is that some western people really think there is a possiblity that the USA (hence China too) will after all grant 25% of its territory to a few thousand people.

Terror and separatist are two different terms.
9/11 was an incident of revenge not an attempt to separate Manhattan from USA. Tibetans are separatists and not terrorists.
Yes India knows it better, that is exactly why we call the communist rebels as Naxalites, Tibetan and Bangladesh immigrants as refugees and Kashmir pundits as citizens and not terrorists; China otherwise would have labeled all of them as terrorists.

Dalai Lama wrote an official letter to USA and UK for help but he got no reply for it. He even wrote a letter to India but India refused to help but agreed to make an accommodation if Lama wished to go in exile.

Lama could not have connived with the CIA on this aspect because Tibet was not a part of China yet.
Again India was an enemy of the USA when this happened. No influence of the west would have been tolerated by India then. The only Allie of India was Russia and in fact China to some extent.
17 point agreement is not a joke. It was the first and last peaceful agreement between China and Tibet signed by delegates from both Central People's Government and the Local Government of Tibet on Measures for the Peaceful Liberation of Tibet.
China violated the following points:

4th point- The central authorities will not alter the existing political system in Tibet. The central authorities also will not alter the established status, functions and powers of the Dalai Lama. Officials of various ranks shall hold office as usual.

5th point- The established status, functions and powers of the Panchen Ngoerhtehni shall be maintained.

6th point- By the established status, functions and powers of the Dalai Lama and of the Panchen Ngoerhtehni are meant the status, functions and powers of the thirteenth Dalai Lama and the ninth Panchen Ngoerhtehni when they had friendly and amicable relations with each other.

7th point- The policy of freedom of religious belief laid down in the common programme of the CPPCC shall be carried out. The religious beliefs, customs and habits of the Tibetan people shall be respected and lama monasteries shall be protected. The central authorities will not effect a change in the income of the monasteries.

8th point- Tibetan troops shall be reorganised step by step into the PLA and become a part of the defence force of the PRC.

11th point- In matters relating to various reforms in Tibet, there will be no compulsion on the part of the central authorities. The local government of Tibet shall carry out reforms of its own accord, and, when the people raise demands for reform, they shall be settled by means of consultation with the leading personnel of Tibet.

13th point- The PLA entering Tibet shall abide by all the above-mentioned policies and shall also be fair in all buying and selling and shall not arbitrarily take a needle or thread from the people.

14th point- The CPG shall have centralised handling of all external affairs of the area of Tibet; and there will be peaceful co-existence with neighbouring countries and establishment and development of fair commercial and trading relations with them on the basis of equality, mutual benefit and mutual respect for territory and sovereignty.

Dzasak Khemey Sonam Wangdi, Khentrung Thuptan, Tenthar, Khenchung Thuptan Lekmuun Rimshi, Samposey Tenzin Thondup
The Tibetan delegates, two officials from Dromo and two from Lhasa, were chosen by the Dalai Lama to accompany Ngapoi Ngawang Jigme. According to the Dalai Lama, Ngabo was not empowered to sign any agreement, "only to negotiate".

And about the Tibetans being Chinese; less than 5% of Tibetans are Chinese. Dalai Lama's followers represent more than 75% of Tibet.

Ya, show your 50 point agreement to the world and India will kick your ass for the third time.

The Indian Government violated all the fifty points of my sacred document. I even ordered Prime Ministers Nehru, Ghandi 1, 2 and 3 to meet me at my place and they refused to do so. Maybe I shall BBQ myself and after that they will adhere to the fifty points and allow me to take possession of my kingdom.

You utter the word taking possession and the next movement you'll have a screw in your ass. You see we have a lot of land mafia here, so even if you take possession we know how to take it back. Why do you even want to invest here. Only an Indian knows how to take on India.
Sorry but your sacred 50 point document is not valid as it doesn't have my seal on it,,,,,,,:(

When I shall rule India, there will be no caste system. All Indians will be on the same level. I shall also clean the political system. There will be no more corruption in the country because I shall put in jail all politicians and policemen. And I shall order the construction of millions of toilets all over India so that people need not defecate in the open.

If they know that a communist is about to rule India, Indians will pee on your face.
Forget jailing politicians and policemen, you cant even file a case in the court claiming India, because you are Manchu not British.
You don't need a million toilets to keep India clean. Yo only need some some sensible citizens. That I give in, Indians have no thought of cleanliness of public areas.

I have no doubt that India has got the world's most advanced research centre for mental illness and also the greatest number of mental illness hospitals. That is why you are in India and that is why also the Tibetans in exile live in India.

But you are welcome. Tibetans were tested sane and discharged. We had ideas of testing Mao but poor fellow had something more than mental illness. So you aspiring to be the next Mao are welcome to the NIMHANS

Under the current hostile atmosphere, I am quite surprised that the Chinese government still allowed 7,000-8,000 ethnic Tibetans to attend the annual Kalachakra Festival presided by Dalai Lama in India as the article mentioned.

But the article also reported that several hundred have been detained upon return.

Why didn't Dalai Lama advise them to stay in India after the festival was over?

I would not doubt that there would be a few CCP spies. But to see the exiled Tibetans all going paranoid and even claiming that the Dalai Lama's life is under threat it was hilarious. Apparently the exile Tibetans do not know their enemy anymore having lived outside of Tibet for so long.

When was the last time the CCP carried on an assassination outside of its border?

I think it is proved the opposite. Vegetarian is not neccessarily live longer. How do you know DL don't eat meat and have sex with women or men. Even homo can get marry with woman and have sex with men. Sex is certainly healthy, no sex is weird, so you see monky and nuny are weird!! They want but can't. Like chicken see water but can't drink it because it is salty sea water. :D

This was a fairly balanced article - surprising given the venom that the Economist was churning out earlier on the subject. Indeed, the repression of the religious class in Tibet is reprehensible and the erosion of Tibetan culture through Han Chinese migration is unmistakeable.

The Chinese government has taken on a more balanced approach to civil strife in recent years. Instead of looking to simply suppress wherever there is dissent, it has begun 'hitting hard' at the extremist elements while trying to appeal to the moderates with large numbers of concessions. In places like Wukan and Xilinhot (Inner Mongolia), this approach has worked like magic. In Kashgar and Tibet, perhaps less so. Ostensibly, this is because of cultural distance of the Uyghurs and Tibetans to the Han Chinese vis-a-vis Cantonese farmers and Mongolian herdsmen, but it is also a matter of religion and economics.

As people become more educated and the economy becomes more developed, society tends to become more secular over time. People in Tibet and Xinjiang are still holding on to a century-old adage of nationalism with a deeply religious character - they espouse highly conservative forms of Buddhism and Islam that would not mix well with any sort of modern democratic society, let alone the Chinese government. Indeed, much of the unrest happens on the poorest areas with the highest number of devout 'believers', where people must turn to religion because of a lack of hope for their real-life problems, such as unemployment. Unrest rarely comes out of the middle class Tibetan and Uyghur populations - the former numbering perhaps only several hundred thousand, because they now have vested interests in keeping lock-step with Chinese economic growth, and see dollars and cents more than gods and spirits. Of course, the Uyghur and Tibetan middle class are still connected to their poorer cousins, and thus feel sympathy through a shared sense of identity. But only they are able to mount any form of credible opposition to the government, and they are for the most part unwilling to stand up. Thus, increasing the 'indigenous' middle class (modern, white-collar, Mandarin-speaking, ethnically-transient) in these ethnic areas is the Chinese government's unspoken strategy of 'pacifying' these regions.

With a long-term vision focused primarily on economics, which is not well articulated by this article, the Chinese government will slowly, but surely, assimilate ethnic regions to the state as a whole. More Tibetans will move to other parts of China, cultural erosion will continue, and Tibet will continue to be orientalized for the tourism revenue that it generates. Whether this is 'right' or 'wrong' you can debate all you want. With all his magic and charm, Dalai Lama can live until he is 150 for all I care. But he is losing against the tide of economics, and time.

Wow! You certainly sound "reasonable", but under the charade of a "balanced" post, you blame the Tibetans and Uyghurs for Chinese imperialism.

So, as people get more educated and become richer, they become more secular, so they should stop caring about their identity, their history, culture, language etc. Because the last I remember, the educated, secular people of tiny and big Europeans countries did not embrace Hitler. Nationality did not and has still not become an obsolete concept, anywhere in the "educated" and "prosperous" world.

The only way China will make Tibet and Xinjiang "chinese" will be by obliterating the natives, or by importing huge numbers of Han Chinese into these regions or both, which is what it seems to be doing.

Though your comment is well written try to remember that Tibetan monks, nuns, lay people and nomads are being rounded up and interrogated, tortured and killed. Some disappear. This is an atrocity that cannot be rationalized, whether it happened in England or the US or anywhere else. By rationalizing China's policy in Tibet you, yourself are complicit.

"they espouse highly conservative forms of Buddhism and Islam that would not mix well with any sort of modern democratic society, let alone the Chinese government"

Tibetans in exile already have democratically-elected political organs and a democratically-elected Prime Miister. That is far more than what authoritarian China has o show about democracy. You are merely letting your prejudices talk for you. Tibetans re as ready as anyone for democracy.

"Indeed, much of the unrest happens on the poorest areas with the highest number of devout 'believers', where people must turn to religion because of a lack of hope for their real-life problems, such as unemployment"

Riots in 2008 began in Lhasa, where thousands of its inhabitants revolted against Chinese rule. Tibetans as a whole detest Chinese rule. It's not a matter of education level. It's basic human nature. Obody likes to be ruled by foreigners (Chinese didn't enjoy it much when it happened o them, either).

China will certainly be able o co-opt many with economic benefits and access to power. But with prosperity comes education, and History has shown us that nationalist leaders tend to come from the educated middle and upper class. Don't be so sure that your scheme would work. China knows it wouldn't. That is why they prefer to leave tibetans largely poor and illiterate (37% of them can't read or write), and instead bring the "pacifying" middle class from outside. Mass migration is the tool of choice of the regime here.

This theory is bunk. Look at Rebiya Kadeer. She was a highly successful secular Uighur businesswoman throughout the 1990s who joined the government and worked on the NPPCC in Beijing.

When she tried to bring up the problems of Han leaders persecuting Uighurs, they demonized her as a separatist. When Xinjiang had riots in 2009, they needed a scapegoat and shoveled the blame on her (then residing in exile in the US I think).

She was pretty much the picture-perfect example of what the China gov says they want out of minorities. Non religious, no controversial political ideas, and financially successful. Yet Beijing needlessly attacks this type of person, then they radicalize. Another Uighur businesswoman (with ties to the government) named Eziz had almost an identical story:

China will certainly be able o co-opt many with economic benefits and access to power. But with prosperity comes education, and History has shown us that nationalist leaders tend to come from the educated middle and upper class. Don't be so sure that your scheme would work. China knows it wouldn't. That is why they prefer to leave tibetans largely poor and illiterate (37% of them can't read or write), and instead bring the "pacifying" middle class from outside. Mass migration is the tool of choice of the regime here.
-----------------------

You really can tell lies. China offer them Tibetan language school and Chinese school. They can choose by themselves which one they take. They live much longer than before, from 35 (1950) to 65 (2000). School, food supply, infrastructures etc which DL can NEVER provide to them besides brainwashed Tibetan with Karma.

The province is still dead last in GDP terms, with horrific illiteracy rates. Not exactly something to show off. To say that Tibetans couldn't have bested these poor results by themselves is not only arrogant, but also ridiculous.

Remember, China was in an even worse situation at the turn of the 20th century (the sick man of Asia), yet they managed to pull themselves back on their feet without the need of any "benevolent" colonial master.

To compare current China to Hitler German is atrocious! As far as I understand no Tibetan has been stopped from speaking their language, studying their history, developing their culture and preserving their identity. What the Chinese government is doing is to create the possibilities for the Tibetans to explore other pursuits of life, which though can't be comparable to what Swedes can enjoy.

The analogy of Hitler was to refute the thesis of Jeremy Wong Fisher (the first post in this thread), not to say that China is akin to Nazi Germany. I am happy to explain if this is still not clear.

I am not sure what your background is, but you would first need to go live in Tibet and be persecuted like the Tibetans, before you make your sales pitch on how benevolent the CCP and Chinese rule in Tibet are.

Most countries today are run by bankers, and they're dragging us all down the sinkhole along with them with their mindless greed. Soon enough monks and nuns won't seem so bad. Even a monkey will look preferable.

Anyway, nobody said Tibet had to remain a feudal theocracy. China was pretty feudal a hundred years ago, too, and look where they got all by themselves. One way or another, it was for Tibetans to figure out, not foreign colonialists, no matter how "benevolent".

Also bankers push for freedom because free-market capitalism suits their own interests.
.
Monks push for theocratic laws because it suits their own interests.
.
Again, which type of country would you rather live in?

You got it wrong. khebir was considered a terrorist by the US when she was living in China, someone connected with Al khaida. Then, when she ran away to the US and turned her terrorist activities against China, she suddenly became in the eyes of the western countries a saint worthy to be nominated for the infamous Nobel Peace Prize.

Neither, if I may have the choice. Don't take me wrong, Troll, I believe that when priests or soldiers rule, things end up turning nasty, but here our Western leaders' idea of "market-conforming democracy" (Angela Merkel's own words) seems to be turning us all into low-wage, highly indebted mindless consumers. Can't help to admire the anti-materialistic Tibetan philosophy.

And as I said, it is silly to contend, as most of our wumaos here do, that Tibet would have remained a feudal theocracy hadn't China "liberated" it, or that the DL would implement again that kind of regime should he ever come to power. That kind of regime has no place in our world anymore.

Iran is far from the kind of medieval theocracy Tibet used to be. In most aspects, Iran is more democratic than China, even if it's still far from the standards we have in the West (which are not necessarily universal), and its respect for Human Rights (which are universal) is more or less on the same level as the PRC. Overall, it would beat foreign occupation.

Would have Tibet evolved into this kind of pseudo-democratic theocracy, had China never invaded? It's possible, but we'll never know. Would it had remained as it was in the 40s? I seriously doubt it. What is clear is that the Dalai Lama and the TGIE would not try to implement the old feudal system nor the Iranian model in the improbable case Tibet became independent today. He has made that explicit enough.

Iran does not respect human rights on the same level as the PRC.... Sure there are many similarities such as the Internet being censored in both countries, but Islamic laws restrict human rights far more than whatever the PRC's laws do.

Why don't you pretend to be a Muslim girl in Iran and drink alcohol or wear short-shorts and see what happens to you?

Well members the TGIE has now been trained in some of the world's top schools for government (mostly due to Western affinity for the TGIE, so the West's top schools have offered free spots for TGIE members) , so it's plausible to say that the TGIE could establish a functional government today.

But if you gave them that freedom in the 50s, then they would have probably continued with their shit and Tibet would be much worse off today under Chinese rule.

Regardless, it's too late for Tibetan independence. There are too many Han who have established livelihoods in Tibet and introduced Chinese-style everything in Tibet. There's no even-slightly-realistic chance or method to reverse these changes.

众生 is translated as "beings" by Google, 'flesh' is an inappropriate translation and inconsistent with English translated Buddhist terminology.
"If the Dalai Lama had burned himself for the welfare of all exile Tibetans, then we might have been able to relate it to the Buddha & Tigress’ story."
I will grant you however that reference to the parable is somewhat of a bad fit, but your own suggestion is a non-sequitor. How exactly would the DL immolating himself "feed" the Tiger and thus save the population? Would it alter the mainland's policy in Tibet?
I suspect that if the DL did burn himself, the central government would, as MT suggested, find themselves without recourse to the DL in their excuses for rebellion.
--edit--
Darn, this post had been meant as a reply to ChinaEagle

No, I want DL to burn himself. Tibetans in exile will then fracture and many splinter groups will start terrorism. That way, China gets excuse to crackdown harder, and if things goes the way of Chechnya, even CIA-backed organizations like NED will find it hard to argue for funding the TGIE.

"How exactly would the DL immolating himself "feed" the Tiger and thus save the population?"

He could once and for all show his people that hanging on to his every word and worshipping him is hampering their lives. No, it will not be enough to make a verbal statement to his people because the people revere him too much to listen to him tell them not to listen to him (I know, it's complicated).

What he needs to do is to do something horrifically naughty. When I wanted to break up with my ex-girlfriend, I thought one of the best way to do it was to get caught in her bed with another girl. It worked like a charm. Now that involved quite a bit of sacrifice. That's what the Buddha + Tigress story was all about. Sacrifice for the greater good.

Troll. Why do you spend all day trying to be so hardcore? I can see you spend hours on these boards. Is it a cover-up for your real character? What is your job? Wu-mao I'm sure. Who else would spend so much time spilling hatred and negativity?

Just FYI, the fact that you trolls obsessively label me as wu-mao makes me (a 1/2 ethnically Chinese person who was born in the US and holds dual Western passports and currently works in Greater China) actually hate the Tibetans.

Since I cannot hate on you, a protected American from a powerful country, directly, I redirect my hatred toward the super-vulnerable and super-easy-targets of the Tibetans.

So enjoy inadvertently stirring up hate, Mr. American who genuinely wants to do good but does not understand the situation so he inadvertently stirs up hate instead.

"I'd only believe the sacrifice angle if you lost flesh from the espisode. ;)"

Actually I sacrificed something far more that flesh. I suffered the permanant muddying of my good name. If the Dalai Lama did the same to free his people from this mental slavery, he would be taking a hit to the reputation of the "institution" he represents. That would be sacrifice indeed.

"Good name? Hah! You acted like a cur and took the cowards way out. More like rich rewards.
Your ex at least got to see the real you. Good riddence."

See? It works even in written form. I took the "honourable" way out with a different girl before that and goodness, it wasn't a clean break off. In fact, it was a mini-disaster. That girl was still pining for me a few years later still (I am very handsome). And look at the way you denigrated me. This method is so effective and as I said the only drawback is the love lost. Now if the Dalai Lama adopts a similar way to set his people free from this mental bondage, it would be a great show of his courage and transcendency over all that is immaterial in his buddhahood.

"I took the "honourable" way out with a different girl before that and goodness, it wasn't a clean break off."

I see, so to compound the matter you treat another as if she was identical to the first and use yet another woman as a tool rid yourself of a problem.

I would suggest you refine on your selection criteria and not hop into bed simply based on hood ornament appeal :p, because if you've chosen the same personality to date a second time, the lesson reality has been presenting to you hasn't taken. ;)

I will make exceptions if the SO is truly deranged, because it may be the only option. But still, dating the same kind of chick twice does not shine a favorable light upon your judgement.

er... no. She used me. Did I mention that I am devilishly handsome? Every morning I go to style my hair and I think to myself "why bother?". Sometimes, I hesitate to go out because of the accidents I cause with female (and male) motorists. My mom worries that I get too many hate email from jealous husbands and boyfriends. My boss denied me of promotions because he felt threatened -- one day his wife packed me extra leftover rib roast (with the bones!!) when we left from their dinner party.

"I will make exceptions if the SO is truly deranged"

They always think they can hold on to me. Alas, it never worked out for them. Are they deranged? I don't know, I don't have a baseline to compare to.

"More over, why does he need "male enhancements" in order to satisfy his partners? Is he 70?"

There was no need. I tried them in the interest of science -- I am constantly looking for ways to sacrifice myself for humankind. I wondered what could possibly enhance my nearly flawless being. Indeed there wasn't much but at least it was double the fun.

"It must be murder tearing yourself away from the mirror like that. How you bear it I don't know."

It is. Besides physical handsomeness, I have proportionately more inner strength which is how I 'tear" myself away from the mirror. Also, all along the way to work, I enhance everyone's day by allowing them a glimpse of perfection. It is inspirational to the masses. I console myself that doing "good" on the way to work is an awesome way to start a day. At the office, once I turn on my computer, my webcam is cheerfully happy to digitize perfection and show it in a tiled window.

"But really? You could be anything from Bi "rain" to a round little old lady in a dark room chewing on dog food. Assert away."

Touché. But seriously, from what I've seen of Bi "rain" (I've only just reaserched him five minutes ago on youtube), he is slightly gayish. So no, not like me at all. If you must, imagine the little old lady... it will make you feel better.

"the number escaping to India through Nepal has shrunk from about 3,000 a year to under 1,000."
The Chinese Government does not prevent anyone from leaving China. So there is no need to use the term "escape". "Walk away" would be more appropriate, and the 1.34 billion Chinese population would wish that even more than 3,000 of them per year walk away to Dharamsala or elsewhere. The best thing would be that one million walk away each year.
As for the self-immolation, I personally have no problem with it. So we do not like it, anyone can choose to self-immolate oneself. As I said, the more the better.

Have you ever walked across a border without going through passport control? So no, they (and noone else) is permitted to leave the country without passing through. At that time they would note who you are and perhaps pay your family a visit should you make them uncomfortable when you leave. That is assuming they would let you go. If not, I guess you could hire a lawyer to fight for your "rights".

Where do you live? On the moon? If you need a lawyer to fight for your "rights" when you wish to leave the moon, such is not the case in China. In China, anyone is free to travel. Hundreds of millions of Chinese have travelled abroad and they did not have to hire a lawyer to fight for their "rights". Do you have a special kind of rights on the moon that you need a lawyer to defend them? If one million Tibetans were to leave China every year to Dharamsala or elsewhere, the Chinese Government would not object at all. In fact, the Chinese Authorities would not even ask them where they aere going nor whether they will come back. And the rest of the Chinese population would not be less happy.

Why don't they take the road? Every time I have crossed the Chinese border, I had to have my passport inspected. I guess the Tibetans would rather walk through mountain passes and pay guides rather than a bus ticket. Hmmmmm

The border is controlled to prevent illegal immigrants, like the border controls in other countries. The control is not to prevent someone to go out of China. I have compared the control in China with the control in the US. The latter is more stringent. Some people were ask to undress themselves completely at the US border control.

TE self destruction is not being defiant. It goes against the core teachings of buddhism, once again I have to ask the author of this article.
Have you even been to Tibet?
Do you just look at the western perspectives?
Don't you know the history of Tibet and China?
Among, many many others, so unless you can answer these questions, the same claims that the TE is making is no better than a kid throwing a tantrum.

There is no greater good that justifys violence or untimely death.
Committing suicide as a form of political protest has nothing to do with bravery but only with ideological blindness. The monks who are doing so are changing one ideology against another.
It makes me very sad that religion has obviously lost its capability to guide ordinary people on their way to a higher goal in distance from the daily manipulations through political and industrial leaders, lobbyists or the media et cetera.
Have we all forgotten the words of this little man who changed the world with his non-violent protest ?
Mahatma Gandhi's words are needed more than ever if we want to change the world.
We have to start with ourselves and take a closer look at our inner demons of fear, various feelings of hate and an aggression always ready to harm others for our identity.

There is no violence committed by a second party when someone chooses to immolates himself. If a monk thinks he must immolate himself, so be it. No one wishes to prevent them. Thousands of people commit suicide every year in the world.

By all means, please. That would allow China to place Tibetans on terrorist watch list like Uighurs and crackdown even harder. Oh, and China will also fund Kashmiri terrorists, insurgents in Seven Sister states, and Naxalite fighers (it will also ensure that the latter two link up via Chicken's Neck and Bangladesh).

"The smart new reception centre for recent arrivals in Dharamsala tells a similar story. Built to house as many as 500 people, only one-tenth of its beds are in use."

The "smart" new reception centre, which was built with money from Washington, is just another example of dumb American tax money gone to smart foreigners, on the way enriching bunches of Washington insiders.

The empty center reminds us of the outsized US embassy and military bases in Iraq. Another failed grand vision.

As a Chinese, I wish that Washington could be more generous and increase their grant to the Tibetans in Dharamsala so that they could build a much larger reception centre with all facilities and amrneties to welcome 100,000 people. Washington should also not act niggardly but should give to each newcomer a stipend for five years to allow them time to adapt themselves to the new environment. In this way a larger number of Tibetans will "escape" from China to Dharamsala. With a population of 1.34 billion people, I do not think it will make any difference if one million people "escape" to Dharamsala or somewhere else each year.

26 self-immolations? What a waste of lives. If only they allowed themselves to be executed by the Chinese government, their organs could save countless other lives and live on in new recipients. True reincarnation.

After all, Tibetans are so compassionate, they fed their dead to vultures. Surely, in all their infinite wisdom, giving their organs instead to the hated Han Chinese will cultivate good karma, for the benefit of all sentient beings. Perhaps even the evil Han Chinese themselves will feel gratitude for their noble self sacrifice.

Yes. It is a true loss. The consternation it is causing in China is entirely justified.

They are depriving the medical tourists to Chinese hospitals of life-saving organs, and the Chinese hospitals themselves of rich and richly deserved profits, now that the Chinese government has seemingly stopped selling the organs of political death-row inmates.

I thought China wasn't really up there for organ tourism? Thought that was the monopoly of places like India and SE Asia (Thailand and Philippines). I do know that the Body World exhibit I saw with the people and their internal organs preserved w/ plastic at Boston's Museum of Science sourced the corpses from China.

"China is trying to move away from the use of executed prisoners as the major source of organs for transplants.
According to the China Daily newspaper, executed prisoners currently provide two-thirds of all transplant organs.
The government is now launching a voluntary donation scheme, which it hopes will also curb the illegal trafficking in organs.
But analysts say cultural bias against removing organs after death will make a voluntary scheme hard to implement.
Thriving black market
About 1.5 million people in China need transplants, but only about 10,000 operations are performed annually, according to the health ministry.
The scarcity of available organs has led to a thriving black market in trafficked organs, and in an effort to stop this the government passed a law in 2007 banning trafficking as well as the donation of organs to unrelated recipients.
But in practice, illegal transplants - some from living donors - are still frequently reported by the media and the Ministry of Health.
Human rights groups have often criticised China for its lack of transparency over organ donation, but critics have focused particular concern on the use of body parts from executed prisoners.
In a rare admission of the extent to which this takes place, China Daily - citing unnamed experts - said on Wednesday that more than 65% of organ donations come from death row prisoners.
China executes more people than any other country. Amnesty International said at least 1,718 people were given the death penalty in 2008.
The China Daily quoted Vice-Health Minister Huang Jiefu as saying that condemned prisoners were "definitely not a proper source for organ transplants".
The new scheme is therefore designed to reduce the reliance on death row inmates, as well as regulating the industry by combating the illegal trafficking of organs.
The system will be piloted in 10 provinces and cities, and a fund will be started to provide financial aid to donors' families."

No no, you completely misunderstood my proposition. Encouraging them to set themselves on fire is completely wasteful. Those organs won't be usable once charred.
A better approach would be to ask the Chinese government (or a Chinese corporation if you prefer seeing how there should be more capitalism and less government intervention) to sponsor a travel package for Tibetan monks, a return ticket into Dharamsala to see the Dalai Lama. Once they have arrived and spent some time with His Holiness, their life is complete, they can die happy. After that you fly them back to meet their prospective recipients, so they know that they are in fact doing a good deed sacrificing themselves to these ravenous Chinese tigers. Finally they can use the infamous 'death van', a genuine Chinese innovation to perform their ultimate sacrifice. This way, those organs can be ensured to arrive on time to the recipients in the freshest state.
It might even give those Chinese a literal 'change of heart' about the fate of Tibetans.

What's not been discussed very much is the enormous economic cost to all Tibetans for the defiance of some. Tourism, one of the pillars of the economy, is dead. In the most troubled areas people are afraid to leave their homes, and internet and cell phones don't work. No doubt there are significant effects on commerce, transportation, and vital government services such as health care and schools. When the caterpillar fungus harvest comes in this spring, can it be gotten to market? If not, then hundreds of thousands of Tibetans will be thrown into dire poverty. Some would say that the cost is worth it. Is it really?

I don't understand why you insist on obsessively mocking Asian cultural practices when you yourself is an Asian. (and from a country that exhibits much weirder cultural practices by Western standards to boot)

And these practices are not limited to just developing countries such as China or un-developing countries such as Myanmar. The Japanese and Koreans do similar stuff that would be considered odd in the West.

I think caterpillar fungus is good for men... *wink wink*. I've tried it and it works -- I eat it and I walk around attracted to everything.

This is the reason why I support the continued subjugation of the Tibetan peopl by all meanse. Caterpillar fungi grow quite well in Tibet's climate and can fetch 900 bucks a pound or soemthing like that. Each Tibetan family only needs to grow ten pounds a year to live like kings. If Tibet isn't subjugated, it's quite likely the lamas will keep the harvest to themselves which is not cool.

Tourism is specifically controlled by the Chinese, who restrict the numbers allowed and require expensive licenses ($100/day when I tried to go there in 97) for the few they do allow. I chose not to fund the occupation.

Tourism is specifically controlled by the Chinese, who restrict the numbers allowed and require expensive licenses ($100/day when I tried to go there in 97) for the few they do allow. I chose not to fund the occupation.
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You don't fund the occupation, but give benefit to Tibetan tour guide and Tibetan hotelier.

Because they have security concerns. I went to Sikkim too and could not find official "maps" to this area. It has nothing to do with economic or environmental devastation. They just don't want you there. I think they are rediculous too btw.

I can hire them myself for a lot less than $100 per day.... In fact I have hired tour guides and hotels all over China and the rest of Asia for far less than that. I hired tour guides and pack horses in China at about that time for around $20 a day. Strangely, the $100 per day did not entitle me to a hotel room or a guide.

"Can I also use deer antler (鹿茸) Lingzhi mushrooms (灵芝), Yak and Goat Penises (牛鞭), available at respectable Chinese stores all over the world?"

I actually haven't tried the others. Eating yak and goat penises sound a bit, um... gay in an interspecies-necrophilic sort of way. Maybe that's how that works. Lingzhi is interesting. I should try that. By the way, eating red meat two days in a row definitely makes me "powerful". Seriously. There was a herb in SOuth East Asia that definitely did the job too. It was a nasty sort of tea. I drank it for 30 days and yup my girlfriend was very tired. But I'm keeping that herb a secret because it possibly could complicate matters for Tibetans if nobody buys the Caterpillar Fungus and use that other herb instead.

The Dehli Llama is merrily a puppet buddha sacrificing himself to the Western imperialist paper tigers. It ain't really the Delhi Llama but Hollywood that's behind all these Chinese Divisions in Tibet. Nowadays, Tibetans are attaining Self-Enightenment under the loving beneviolent coercive care and gentle goadance of the CommunoCapitalistic Party with Chinese Characteristics and Scientific Outlook. Tibetans and Uighurs ain't no serfing no more! They live free, no longer perspiring, but celibating. Let us celibrate merrily the Serf Emasculation Day. Serf's up dudes!
Xkuze my ESL pleez

Strike Xinjiang - that reason is only used for Tibet. Tocharian really needs to read up more (I mean, come on, you are named after the mystical ancestor of the Uighurs after all, and is one of the arguments they have for earlier habitation of the Tarim Basin).

If westerners really believe that separating Tibet from China is a good thing. Then let California, Nex Mexico, Texas, Arizona become independent from the States who snatched these lands from Mexico through immoral dirty wars. Then let Corsica becomes independent from France who occupied it without getting permission from its people. As to my beloved UK, well, better worry about Scotland which only untied with England in 1707 and now possibly again wanted to divorce for a new life.

The difference is that the people living in California and the other states today do not have a desire to secede from the US. Most Tibetans want to secede from China, despite what the PDCPC propaganda machine claims.

If you're really a "a common Chinese student studying in a common UK university", then you should have at least learned this basic common sense.

(And no I'm not going to get into an argument of whether you think the Tibetans are all happy Chinese citizens because it's really not worth my time.)

To what extent do you know that most Tibetan people want to secede from China? Perhaps from the propganda of the western media which always report China according to a certain stereotype. Of course I have a common sense, but I must defend my national interests no matter what you said just like what British people did in Falkland Wars.

First sorry about the use of 'dirty' in my comments. In fact it's no good trying to define 'dirty' or 'clean'. I just want to say that China made Tibet its own territory exactly the same like America acquired California, New Mexico, etc. from Mexico. Both are through wars and threats. And it is senseless to speak of humantarian disasters in Tibet without actually visiting this place. One can not believe what the Media said all the time.

Because the Tibetans outside of Tibet claim that the Tibetans want to secede (or at least wants genuine autonomy, which China would never grant).

Seeing as how China is censoring what's actually going on in Tibet, you'll have to rely on the exile Tibetans as best-available proxy voices, in the same way that during WW2 you could have relied on overseas Chinese as best-available-proxies for the Chinese living in Japanese-occupied areas when the occupied areas were censored by Japan.

Also I'm sure the 2008 riots and the 1959 uprising were just the Tibetans trying to have some fun....

"I must defend my national interests no matter what"
If you want to defend national interests, does that mean you're ready to join the military ? Just how committed are you to your "nation" ? Why would you study in the UK if you feel strongly about your nation ?

I'm always amazed by "patriotism-no-matter-what" attitudes as I see it as short-sightedness. Thought it had been discarded by the wayside sometime after the US-Vietnam war...No nation is above criticism.

I agree, to a certain extent parallels could be made with the acquisitions you mentioned.

However, it would be more useful to look more into the concrete facts to attain more objectivity (pure objectivity could be considered impossible, but one could have differing levels of objectivity--like scientists who investigate a phenomenon more or less carefully)and more accuracy.

One criteria to look at could be the era in which these invasions occurred and the expectations of civilized nation-states at each period--Just how much did the invaders betray norms of civilized nation-state behavior of that time period ? Was each nation functioning within the norms ? Were they considered marginal ? Excessively cruel ? Feared ?

Also, one could quantify the destruction involved, the cruelty applied to the populations. Just like one could compare and describe the historical domination undertaken by the Roman Empire compared with that by the Mongol Empire. Differing levels of destruction were applied to the occupied populations.

Levels of cruelty have been precisely measured/documented in the realm of animal rights groups or even food industries which attempt to minimise suffering caused during procedures.

I think your use of the term "exactly the same" is an overstatement which leads your reader to discredit your arguments--even if they might have some validity. Such invasions could be "similar to", but do hold measurable and significant differences.

Taboos are often a clear sign of a nation's inability to deal with past shame--it's a good signpost of lingering divergence between professed values and actual conduct. Good places to do research.

Glad to see, for example, efforts on the part of citizens of the US to atone for their country's tragic bout with slavery--even if it was during the period when it was the norm in a large part of the world: For example, the City of Chicago requires firms wishing to do business there to prove historically they did not profit from the slave trade. Suprises occurred when companies such as JP Morgan found it had started in the slave business (under another name)--acknowledgement in the form of a financial gesture to descendants of slaves was required of them to do buiness in Chicago...http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/article_1797.shtml
No-one can turn back the hand of time, but recognition and apologies can help move forward.
It's true in so many situations: Turkey & the Armenian genocide, China & Japan with Nanking recognition, Tibetans would like China to retract the slanderous demonization campaign on the Tibetan "Pope", the Dalai Lama. Nations get hurt like people and processes of forgiveness and atonement can be necessary, if not just plain polite, in order to move forward.

"The difference is that the people living in California and the other states today do not have a desire to secede from the US. Most Tibetans want to secede from China, despite what the PDCPC propaganda machine claims."

Well, the Californians who would have wanted to secede somehow died off or got assimilated. I say that's a pretty good plan for Beijing to follow.

The difference is that the US did forced-assimilation in an era when forced-assimilation was a commonplace throughout the world, and in an era when the Internet and other communication tools did not exist to bring the atrocities to the light of the general population.
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For example I'm sure that Nazi Germany could not exist in an Internet age where news of the death camps could relatively easily be brought to the German population.
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Thus China, unlike what America or Nazi Germany did, must walk a very fine line (which it is doing) between what it's doing and what the Chinese population hears and sees if it doesn't want its own population to turn against it. How long can China keep this up? Who knows.

Are you suggesting that Californians, Texans, Corsicans (Napoleon was one), Scots, etc., should also start self-immolation as a protest against foreign invaders? lol
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I suggest Tocharian self-immolated himself to rescue Burma !! Are you brave enough !! Or you like to buy more caterillar Fungus or Viagra to produce more babies. :D :D

The Mexican government is hardly the the original owners of the land, they conquered the people there themselves. That said, Cali, NM, AZ and TX don't seem to want to go anywhere. And BTW, Texas can legally seek independence should they want to as they joined the Union as a Republic having won independence in their own war with Mexico.

Just FYI, America did not take California from Mexico. Certainly not via invasion, such as China into Tibet. The people in California revolted, and established a separate nation. (The state flag still says "California Republic".) Only later did they decide to join the United States.

Weird, if the Tibetans want to separate from China, why did masses of Tibetan porters help the PLA ferry supplies to southern Tibet theater (around today's Arunachel Pradesh) during the 1962 Sino-Indian War? PRC would have lost that one if Tibetans didn't work on the supply lines.

"The difference is that the people living in California and the other states today do not have a desire to secede from the US. "
Not all in California, but heck some of us just are tired of subsidizing wretches in Blue states, and it would save a bundle of $$$ on military expenses.
Still, it's a bit rich for RobertPortsmouth2011 to assert secession from the US would somehow rectify the situation. California supported a population of 3 million natives, and a few hundred cultures, most of the population was decimated and the cultures, extinct, in no small part under Spanish and Mexican rule. Independence would not return any of them. If the land mass was returned to the surviving populations, almost all of the current Californian population would have to move out to some "ancestral" nation. Difficult, considering the mongrel status of most people in the US.

Not sure, because a translation would probably require my intension. If there is a word pronounced 'mongrel' that has some connotations of ancestry, the answer is perhaps yes.
But, I am using the term in its popular sense, of mixed ethnic/'racial' ancestry, as one means by hyphenated Americans.
And if we go back to Africa, no one is a mongrel. ;)

@jouris - Incorrect. US army went all the way to Mexico City to force a treaty relinquishing the land (wikipedia + mexico city occupied by us troops). Plus, Mexico is a place for mixed Indians/Europeans. If I remember correctly the original Californians were Indians. There is no claim for those lands but history should be respected.

But before the California Republic there were the natives who were wiped out by the California Republic settlers.

The problem with you Americans (Westerners) who do not understand the situation trolling about Tibet is that you actually galvanize the Chinese people into further repression, by encouraging the Chinese to believe that they must band together and repress more in order to fend off what they perceive as "Western interference."

I think you should learn more about the situation before trying to offer criticism if you want to do any good...

still im a little amused. why does china need to band together? it's already a state. what would it take to for "china" to feel like they are given proper stature and respect? is there an angle to press where china would feel confortable to moderate their approach to tibet? should obama go and utter ich bin ein pekinger in MSM?

i also have to wonder if the sense of inferior status is felt by the diaspora. we got ourselves nearly an all asian (han no less!!) city government here in SF. and there's linsanity. pro athlete status is proof. there is no higher standing than pro athelete status. ;)

Well SF (and California in general) is a very unique exception in the US. In most of the rest of the US, there is lots of China bashing and discrimination against Chinese people.

Regarding the Tibet issue, thanks mostly to the Republican party, there's a generalized China bashing in America, so ethnically Chinese people generalize the regular China bashing that has nothing to do with Tibet to Tibet.

When the Republicans hate against the Chinese, they can only expect retaliatory hate (directed at the Tibetans because the Chinese cannot reach the Republicans) in return.

Jeeze, they need to get on the ball, Citizens United and all, they should just form a corporation, and then a Super PAC. Promote Romney or Gingrich, or yes, Please! Santorum, then get caught. Or just spit into every iphone manufactured for shipment to the US.

Also, who the heck cares what Republicans say as red meat to the nationalistic lumpen? We all know they buy chinese. Just work up more spit.

Yup, which makes me wonder why the politburo gets its collective 'nads in twist. I mean both sides engage the same tactics. bring on the hate for super powers and all that.

But really look at S Korea. They've earned their way up the auto status food chain. They are unrelenting demonstrating themselves as the best, throw in a few plants into the south and voila, the lumpen shut up.

The thing is that the CPC doesn't actually spew much hate-for-America propaganda. (It's obvious if you can understand Chinese and watch Chinese news.) Most of the anti-Americanism you read here actually come from angry little Western Chinese kids who have social problems, so they turn to Chinese nationalism to make themselves feel better.

According to PEW Research, Chinese people have a favorability rating of the USA at ~55%, which is comparable to that of the French and Germans. The real anti-American people (Muslims) have a much lower favorability rating. For example, Turkey only has a ~10% favorability rating.

BTW according to breaking news, Mississippi's and Alabama's results are of the following:

1. Santorum
2. Gingrich
3. Romney

Looks like Gingrich will drop out soon because he cannot even win the South (which is where he placed all his chips on), which means that Santorum would probably defeat Romney in a 1v1.

How many time you have been to Tibet? or even China? Have you ever seen Chairman Mao's picture and Panche Lama's picture, side by side in an average Tibetan home, with offering just below the pictures.

Interesting, too many pimply teenage boys. The greater downside to one child policy.

Sigh, evermore I have the net drawn around me of digging into another language. The problem is most locals seem to be Cantonese, if the staccaco sound of their speaking is any clue. Mandarin is not as common.

Heh, unless he's a whiskey man. Currently dividing my time between said stuff, fine beer and heady grappa.. not all in the same day. Never discount Newt's ego. He's a legend in his own mind.

Your ignorance of American history is breathtaking. Mexico, whether as a colony or independent nation, practiced the same corrupt "patron" system brought over from Spain, offering little incentive to the peasant class to take the risks necessary for poor farming families to settle the wild, dangerous lands of the southwest. The U.S. system, however, was dramatically more fair, and encouraged settlement of these lands, so that, despite Mexico's 200-year head start, by the time of the Mexican American War, we had already "taken" the region demographically.

And this "fairness" discrepancy between the two nations exists to this day, as desperate Mexicans continue to smuggle themselves across the border in order to get into the much more fair U.S. economic system. The average Mexican would be much better off if we'd gone ahead and taken the whole country right down to Guatemala. Okie dokie, Robert?

The problem here is less about religion than about race, cultural identity and "Lebensraum für die Übermenschen". Let me basically repeat what I have said before:
For millennia, Han Chinese have viewed the periphery as populated by barbarians and it is a mark of Chinese history to “civilize”, “pacify” and “sinify” them (bring them under Chinese cultural, economic and genetic control). Tibet, Tangut and Nan-Chao (not to mention Tocharians(sic)) were independent kingdoms until “recently” by historical standards. Of course, Chinese are aware of ethnic minorities, but they will use these “quaint people” as tourist attractions or dress them up for show at these NPC and CPPCC Congresses to have tea with Hu and Wen (wearing Western suits (Italian? lol). Han Chinese are convinced of their cultural superiority over the neighbouring tribes (remember the big opening show at the Peking Olympics). China has long-term economic goals so they are hungry for natural resources (gas, oil, uranium, rare earth minerals, fresh water, electricity, timber etc.). The goal is to make China the only dominant global superpower before the end of this century. History, unfortunately, is ultimately written (or better rewritten) by the “conquerors”.

I am afraid that in the west quite a few people still hold deep discrimination againist immigrants and Gypsy who found it difficult to itegrate into society. In China, the government provides huge subsidies and investment in ethinic minority regions plus favourable policies in education so that students living there have more opportunities to receive advanced education especially higher educations. And Tibet is lifted from a serfdom region before 1959 to a autonomy with ever-growing economy. It is understood that Chinese government may have to do more in promoting democratic practices, but how could you condemn a government who have and will be doing more for the benefit of ethnic minority people in a short period of only 53 years. Maybe when China becomes the biggest economy and the real powerful country towards the end of this century. I will hear no more of the scarsctic comments from abroad.

Hope you may not be offended by a common Chinese student studying in a common UK university.

I totally agree with you.
However you may wish to nuance your arguments further since there's a big difference between a) immigrants arriving to a nation at the mercy of that nation's desire and capacity to welcome them and b) a neighboring power taking over another people's land making them second-class citizens on their own land.

Likewise, although China might have good intentions monetarily regarding the ethnic zones it invaded (officially to "liberate" them, unofficially for resources), there is more to life than money for many people in the world. Taking people's freedom and dignity and returning it with money is usually considered an insult.

Sorry, I didn't understand that. I know that in history Burma was once at war with China. So that people there may have grudge against China. But I don't understand why did tocharian still hate China? Just because China sold weapons to Burmese government? Building hydropower dams? The truth is China's suffering smuggling drugs from Burma so China's concerned with what's going on in this country which is still divided by warlords or ethnic militias.

I think it has something to do with jealously paired up with the fact that China is exploiting Burma for its natural resources. (China pays very little $$$ for Burma's natural resources because Burma is subjected to Western trade sanctions, which leaves China as the only buyer remaining.)
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Obviously China being the only buyer who pays exploitative-rates is better than Burma not having any buyers, but the Burmese are still pissed off nonetheless.
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But you should ask tocharian why he hates China.

Does wearing a jean make you Americanized?
If it's yes, then is it a bad thing I should really get rid of?
I won't use "civilize" or "sinify" to describe such things.
Maybe the Han Chinese are blind-minded, but surely they have good things that the Tibetan Chinese may learn from. If the Tibetan religion and values are so precious and strong genetically, why should they worry about the alleged Han Chinese attempts.
This is an era of globilization and assimilation. While you can keep some essence of your cultural identity, you should also try to embrace the universal system.

This article fails to present the fact that most of the immolations are related to Kirti monastery. The head Rinpoche of Kirti monastery, who resides in India with the Dalai Lama, did indeed encourage these extreme acts.

The Dalai Lama did not discourage the self-immolations. He appreciated their braveness but questioned their effectiveness. That, to me, is a cue for the brainwashed to continue the extreme acts. People who remember the Chinese Cultural Revolution would know how the red guards can be encouraged to do anything if the great Chairman appreciated their braveness.

Finally I agree with a previous comment that it is not an appropriate analogy to compare the Buddha legend to the extreme acts of self-immolators who demand 1) Tibet Independence and 2) the return of the Dalai Lama to Tibet.

I'd have to agree with your last point that the analogy is not appropriate, for in the Buddha legend the Buddha had not suffered severe forms of social, psychological and physical pressure & disregard when he made his sacrifice, so in the case of the self-immolators there would be a mix of several possible factors of motivation: 1)defiance 2)desperation 3)communication for the greater good of their community 4)discouragement... whereas in the Buddha & the tigresse, the perverted environmental contributing factors are not present.

Do you have a case of the last point in your post ?
I know of no-one who has done what you claim.

I have, however, read certain articles attempting to decipher the logic behind self-immolations (good article in Le Monde from 26 November 2011) throughout history. Of course, in a Buddhist context people would be free to discuss the Buddha and the tigress story to attempt to clarify such actions--this does not mean they are "glorifying" them. Empathy does not equate with glorification.

However, there is inernational consensus that this spate of self-immolations is disturbing and needs attention. The fact that the Chinese government has closed Tibet to journalists and outside observers indicates there is something to hide in their approach to Tibet. For the moment in Tibet, we do not see any Wukan-style referendums, but portraits of Mao hung in temples.

You can demonize varying positions on the self-immolations as much as you like, but you cannot "disappear" the acts themselves. I imagine the Chinese spin doctors are working frantically to spin a narrative which, as usual, leaves the Chinese government innocent and blameless, and which, as usual, ignores the problems in their misguided dealings with Tibet--until the Chinese government can get beyond their ethnocentric policies, Tibet will most likely continue to burn, and China to continue to lose face.

Wukan-style referendum? We did not see Wukan villagers demanding Independence or the return of a lead rebel leader from overseas. If they did they would have been cracked down without mercy.

When it comes to Tibet China is a country in rage because of the 2008 race-targeted Lhasa riots. I believe that the present "shock and awe" approach intends to intimidate leaving no hint for doubt as can be seen by recent video reports on Aba. I suspect that should a large-scale riot break out again, we would see a no-nonsense, rapid and violent crack down, unlike what happened in Lhasa in 2008 when the riots were allowed to go out of control with loss of many innocent lives and properties.

"...China...lose face..."? I think China must move beyond this infantility, if she has not already done so.

Not so sure about your last argument. Did you see the recent news of the Chinese official so upset he was obliged to walk out of the National People's Congress when questioned on Tibet ? "Losing face" can mean being discredited, losing your job... à la Bo Xilai..., not just being embarassed like a child as you suggest, so, no, the Chinese are not superior and "above" losing face. They are like all other humans.

Also, it's very convenient for the Chinese government to innocently confuse cries for human rights, human dignity (notice, not cries for money!) from Tibetans as cries for independence, for they can then use it as an excuse to militarize their western borders. As Mao himself cynically said: “'The more chaotic the situation is in Tibet, the better. It will serve to train our troops and toughen the masses. Besides, it will give us sufficient excuse to crush the rebellion and begin reforms in the future,' confided Mao Zedong in February 1959, 53 years ago when Kham was in full revolt." (From Le Monde, yesterday's issue). China must admit their failings in Tibet.

If China were a truly mature nation as you intimate, there would be no need for "no-nonsense, rapid and violent" dictatorial responses on the populations whose lands they've occupied. Were China mature, people would love to be its citizens, people would wish to immigrate there to improve their lives. Relatively speaking, this is not the case.

"We did not see Wukan villagers demanding Independence or the return of a lead rebel leader from overseas."

Their rebel leader could hardly return to Wukan, since he died in custody soon after the riots began. Much like it would have happened to the Dalai Lama had he not gone into exile.

Wukan villagers fought for their dignity. And won. Tibetans are equally fighting for their dignity, but obviously the Party has much less qualms about massacring "treacherous" ethnic minorities than unruly Han peasants (things have changed since Tiananmen).

"We did not see Wukan villagers demanding Independence or the return of a lead rebel leader from overseas."

Their rebel leader could hardly return to Wukan, since he died in custody soon after the riots began. Much like it would have happened to the Dalai Lama had he not gone into exile.

Wukan villagers fought for their dignity. And won. Tibetans are equally fighting for their dignity, but obviously the Party has much less qualms about massacring "treacherous" ethnic minorities than unruly Han peasants (things have changed since Tiananmen).

Wukan villagers fought for their dignity. And won. Tibetans are equally fighting for their dignity, but obviously the Party has much less qualms about massacring "treacherous" ethnic minorities than unruly Han peasants
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You are really wrong, Wukan villagers were fighting for their own interests/benefit, not "dignity".

It is apparent that you want to claim that "Party has much less qualms about massacring "treacherous" ethnic minorities than unruly Han peasants".

I do not see it that way.

When I see photos from 2008 Lhasa riots where the police hid behind their shield while "peaceful" Tibetan monks throwing stones at them, I say, the Han Chinese would dream about equal treatment from their government like that. Why? Because I know the Han Chinese would never expect such "benign" treatment from their government. They knew the bullets would fly if they dared to venture that far.

"This 113 number is "predicted" by the Oracle of the Tibet Government in Exile"

This is an interesting one. I went and searched for news on this prediction and found something interesting:

"The oracle, however, underlined that the Dalai Lama’s age would depend on the deeds and conduct of the Tibetan people, a statement said.

“We would like to urge all Tibetans to engage in actions that will not breach the wishes of His Holiness and work hard in preserving our traditional values,”
"

This a conditional statement which can be interpreted any which way to suit your level of superstition. If he makes it to 113, then the level of "not breaching" would be deemed enough. If he doesn't, and the acturial data predicts he will not, then the Tibetan people will be deemed too naughty and disobedient. It's fun to have these guys do their oracle things but dang why do good rational people have to believe in this crap?

I saw a documentary a few years ago when young people dressed in Goth garb and makeup claimed to be vampires. For reals! This whole lama boddhisatva incarnation with oracles thing feels just as stupid as those kids. Except world leaders haven't embraced the vampires and invited them to national parliaments or executive offices.

I saw a documentary a few years ago when young people dressed in Goth garb and makeup claimed to be vampires. For reals! This whole lama boddhisatva incarnation with oracles thing feels just as stupid as those kids. Except world leaders haven't embraced the vampires and invited them to national parliaments or executive offices.
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"Three recent arrivals in Dharamsala are still waiting for the audience their leader traditionally grants newcomers. They say that when they have seen him, they can die without regrets. And they mean it."

I don't mean they should be Vulcans but revering another human being to that degree is not healthy. It should be discouraged. After all, the Dalai Lama is not a god... I think... I sure hope people aren't risking their lives crossing over the himalayas just so they could see just another man. What a monumental waste of effort!

Obviously you have no idea what you're talking about, or why you blindly subscribe to utilitarianism or whichever philosophical theory you subscribe to, so you pretend to be a psychologist to make yourself feel better. :)

What labels? What are you talking about? Perhaps you should improve your English language reading comprehension abilities before trying to argue in an English language forum.

BTW, my indifference to Tibet is indirectly hurting the Tibetans.

I'm not going to sacrifice my own interests (aka give up my time/efforts that could be used for more productive things) to actually care about the Tibetans (which I suppose "makes myself feel better"), but yes I suppose by this logic "making myself feel better" is actually indirectly "hurting the Tibetans."

"But you're wasting your time and effort writing about it, so somehow you're involved, even if you're rejecting it."
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I'm spending a few minutes of my time learning about the conflict (and the world in general), which knowledge would likely serve my own interests sometime in the future. How does this change my indifference toward the conflict?

I'd say it'd take longer than "a few minutes" to learn about most conflicts in the world and "the world in general" unless you content yourself with a huge risk of oversimplification & caricature. You could take your own advice and go to Tibet, speak with individual Tibetans--but as access is difficult not sure there's enough freedom there even for to do that.

How about taking some responsiblity for themselves instead of waiting for something to happen? How about showing some initiative to improve their own lives? Obviously so many Tibetans, perhaps beyond some critical mass, are hobbled with the idea that they cannot move forward unless they get their Dalai lama back in Lhasa or have rangzen or both.

This magic/superstition thing has gone far enough. It's impact on ordinary Tibetan is far far worse than all the negative things Beijing has done in Tibet since 1950.

It's like playing chess. All you have to do to defeat the ENTIRE population of Tibet is to checkmate the Dalai Lama and the WHOLE Tibetan population and culture is put at risk. This is clearly Tibet's achilles heel. But it's an imagined one. It doesn't have to be. For centuries this cruel joke has been imposed on the people of Tibet. It's time this stops.

When will Tibet become a modern nation and realise that their fates are in their own hands and not in the hands of a few high lamas? It's makes me sick thinking that all they want is to see one lama and they would die without regrets. If this isn't brainwashing on an ethnic scale and across centuries, I don't know what is.

Well you can extend your (very valid) logic to all religions in the world.

The problem is that people are very far from being perfectly logical. Remember when the US invaded Afghanistan in order to improve Afghan lives? Well apparently many Afghans prefer to live under the Taliban.

Any change in Tibet, if to be accepted by the Tibetan people, must come from within. China is the foreign invader trying to impose its will on Tibet, and it'll find the same difficulties as the US tried to impose its will on Afghanistan.

Most likely we'll see continued repression for many decades in Tibet until the Tibetans finally give up and assimilate, as the Native Americans did 1.5 centuries ago.

"When will Tibet become a modern nation"
By "modern" do you mean like China, polluting, overproducing,not to mention shoddy even dangerous food products and lack of labor rights ?
or
do you mean like the US with an over sophisticated under monitored war machine ?
or
perhaps like Europe living a utopian dream to be paid for by future generations ?
You might want to take a closer look at who the joke has been played on.

"Well you can extend your (very valid) logic to all religions in the world."

I actually do but Tibetan Buddhism is an especially egregious case even worse than fundamental "religion of Peace" (you know who... I just don't want a "francois" -- or something that rhymes with it -- ordered on me).

I actually care less about Beijing's worry of Chinese territorial integrity than what these people are doing. I just can't get over how these people are dying to see one man. Literally. Just what is so special about him? Seriously. The guy laughs like a retard, either that or it's diabolical (it's hard to tell th two apart), beyond that, he's really done nothing speical. Given the publicity, I, too can walk around in a saffron robe with my Gucci shoes and laugh.

In fact his Nobel is an inferior one to say Nelson Mandela's. The latter spent decades in jail for his beliefs fighting for his people who have actually been mistreated. The Dalai Lama just walks around comlaining and trying to elevate his quarrel with Beijing to some kind of genocide while his people get new hospitals, schools, and indoor plumbing. If this is Chinese genocide I wonder what CHinese largesse looks like.

Look, the bottom line is, Tibetans have opportunities. If they so much as channel half of the energy they put in to fight for the return of the DL and all the superstitious nonsense, into taking those opportunities and improving their own lives, no monk, nun or lay people have to self-immolate.

It should be abundantly clear that borrowing money, taking a dangerous trek across the Himalayas, getting an audience with the DL and finally wasting their lives away becuase they will die happy, is a stupid thing, not a praiseworhty thing, to do -- in fact it should be condemened as much as possible. Everyone should be brave enough to admit that they've been wrong all along.

In the end, Tibet's current situation is one of a massive dysfunctional cult. Tibetans should admit that this attitude they hold is the single biggest obstacle to their own advancement. It's unpopular, probably sacreligious for them to admit this but it's no longer Beijing holding Tibet back. And this has nothing to do with autonomy, independence, or nationalism.

"Three recent arrivals in Dharamsala are still waiting for the audience their leader traditionally grants newcomers. They say that when they have seen him, they can die without regrets. And they mean it."

My goodness. Why? This is the 21st Century. Get a life, people.
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Now we know the big secret of why those Tibetan can't never live out from poverty and slavery.

"(aka give up my time/efforts that could be used for more productive things)"

Judging by the prolific number of comments you posted on TE over the last three days defending mother China (close to a hundred), it s highly unlikely that you do anything "productive' with your time. What an appropriate moniker you have chosen!

Nah I'm just learning more about the world, and especially about the region of the world in which I currently live. (But I already gave you an explanation of why I post on TE, which you, like most Westerners who are incapable of thinking objectively, chose to ignore to make yourself feel better.)

Seriously cry more about Tibet while China systematically wipes the Tibetans out, just like America did to the Native Americans.

Just FYI, most Chinese people, including myself (sort of; I am 1/2 ethnically Chinese), would be indifferent to the Tibetans, and perhaps even feel pity for them, if there were no perceived Western interference in Tibet.
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But trolls such as yourself continue to hypocritically troll about Tibet when the West has done very similar things in its rise to power, which actually turns the Chinese against the Tibetans because it makes the Chinese believe that they must ban together and repress more to counter what they perceive as Western interference.
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So have fun trolling about Tibet. I hope you do a lot more of it in the future, as it will directly result in more Chinese support for the repression of Tibet.

The thing is that I, like most other "Chinese" people could actually care less about Tibet and would be happy for the PRC to withdraw, but we choose to make Tibet an issue because of all the incessant super-biased China bashing in the West.

It's a natural defensive measure that people take when unfairly attacked (Chinese people generalize regular China bashing that has nothing to do with Tibet to Tibet) so they act defensive and repress more.

If only those ridiculous stuck up Americans realized what they were actually doing...

"The Dalai Lama just walks around comlaining and trying to elevate his quarrel with Beijing to some kind of genocide while his people get new hospitals, schools, and indoor plumbing. If this is Chinese genocide I wonder what CHinese largesse looks like."

Afrikaaners also built hospitals and schools for blacks. Hell, even the Japanese built schools and hospitals in Manchuria. Did that made those regimes any less brutal, any less abhorrent, the plight of the oppressed any less worthy?

(I don't know where you get the "indoor plumbing" thing. If you wander outside Lhasa, even in Shigatse or Gyantse, you'll see how only Chinese areas have proper sewage.)

Tibetan Bhuddism is not just about Dalai Lama, and the CCP is systematically destroying the Tibetan Bhuddism the way they are doing it with Roman Catholicism in China.
Dalai Lama XIV's struggle against the CCP is similar to that of Pope John Paul II's struggle to keep the Chinese Catholics out of CCP control.

Wow. So concern for Tibet makes me a hypocrite! And just because the West did it, it justifies China doing it too! I see the logic.

Definition of hypocrite: a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings.

You and most of your fellow CPC posters constantly accuse the US and the West of imperialism while at the same time defending, justifying, apologizing for Chinese imperialism. Perhaps you should take a look in the mirror.

"Any change in Tibet, if to be accepted by the Tibetan people, must come from within. China is the foreign invader trying to impose its will on Tibet, and it'll find the same difficulties as the US tried to impose its will on Afghanistan.
Most likely we'll see continued repression for many decades in Tibet until the Tibetans finally give up and assimilate, as the Native Americans did 1.5 centuries ago."
You are going to pi$$ off your fellow comrades by being so honest and blunt about the situation. They like to think of themselves as victims of (western) imperialism, not a victimizers of the Tibetans.
It contradicts years of brain-washing propaganda by the CPC.
There is a fifty fifty chance that the CPC will implode at some point and China will have more to worry about internally than Tibet. Failing that, the Tibetans will just become extinct under the CPC. So, no assimilation will be required.

Yeah, right, get a "life". How about the life of an American? Work 70 hours a week, then push a shopping cart at Target to buy MAde in CHina crap, tuff your face with comfort food and then whine about the CHinese stealing your jobs. Yep, that will do it. That s 'The Life". 21st Century and all.

So is labeling me a CPC wu-mao poster supposed to be an insult or something? See personal insults, and especially those over anonymous internet forums, only has effect if your insult is actually close to reality.

Also you're erroneously generalizing me with the other Chinese posters, as of course most of you Western trolls are only capable of.

Personally, I would actually prefer much more efficient repression/forced-assimilation/forced-sterilization of Tibet. I would actually prefer China to set up a special think tank to come up with logical ways of how to more efficiently deal with the Tibet problem. (These special think tanks in China are entirely private, so no PR to pacify the general population is needed.) I would even be happy to be part of this think tank if they would want me.

And what can you do about all of this? Cry more? Cry cry cry cry

So far you Free Tibet trolls haven't managed to even deter a single Western mining company from exploiting Tibetan resources!

Whenever I meet a Free Tibet person IRL, I cannot help but laugh at their ineptness on the inside.

Why an insult? How is truth ever insulting? You should wear it as a badge of honor as most of your fellow comrades do.

We know that you are just venting your anger and frustration with your life by posting here, as you yourself explained in an earlier post. You just want someone to pay for your sorry life. But this is completely unproductive, both for you and the forum. A more productive outlet for you may be to find a mate. Why don't you leave the Tibetans alone?

"Afrikaaners also built hospitals and schools for blacks. Hell, even the Japanese built schools and hospitals in Manchuria."

But you're making a false analogy. The Afrikaaners have racial segregation and unequal laws and enforce them too. The Japanese also had in vivo experimentation on civilians, gratuitous bombings, and mass executions and beheadings. Nothing of that sort if happening in Tibet despite what the DL and the TGIE want you to believe. I do agree that Chinese security agencies are very heavy handed, probably even in violation of certain human rights protocol and they should fix that. But I disagree that mass executions or official racial discrimination is going on.

If the Afrikaaners and Japanese had simply stopped at building schools and hospitals and treated everyone with enough respect, they would actualy be accepted, even welcomed. Many former British colonies remember British rule fondly. A prime example is Hong Kong. British rule in Hong Kong didn't come so much with very harsh or unfair laws. They did have racial discrimination. Some places were out of bounds for local Chinese. But in the end, Hong Kongers brushed all that aside and showed that unless under the most egregious circumstances what matters most is personal responsibility. If Hong Kongers can do that with what I believe to be much less spirituality than Tibetans, I'm sure the latter can too armed with the "wisdom" and "spiritualtiy" their religiosity has fortified them with.

But seriously go learn some psychology before you pretend to be a psychologist. (BTW, based on your tone and mine throughout our conversation, you're obviously the one who's "angry and frustrated" here, and not me.)

Also, I don't want the Tibetans "to pay."
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I actually just want them to either accept Chinese rule or be removed from China. If they would agree to be happy Chinese citizens or to self-deport them to India, then those would be much better solutions than the one I'm advocating for.
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But seeing as how the Tibetans are unwilling to accept Chinese rule or to self-deport themselves, genocide is the only solution remaining.

China is like a big smelly pig that has charged into a small burrow of hares. And it insists on smothering the hares to death unless they get out and let her have their burrow.

And your declaration - genocide is the only solution remaining - says everything there is to say about you and the other 300 CCP drones on this forum. No psychology needed here. My advice still stands. Find another outlet to relieve yourself.

I actually agree with you. So I don't understand why, in terms of religious freedom, being able to display a picture of the XIV is such an important thing to Tibetans. But if they say it's important, it's important.

"the CCP is systematically destroying the Tibetan Bhuddism the way they are doing it with Roman Catholicism in China"

I didn't know that it's going on. In what ways exactly?

"Pope John Paul II's struggle to keep the Chinese Catholics out of CCP control"

Sorry, you're not getting a great deal of sympathy from me there. The RCC's been nearly as political as other NGO's as can be. IN medieval times they were more powerful than the kings and queens of Europe and I don't see any remorse for it. They should be controlled as all religions should be.

But really, I'm ROFLMAO @ your ineptitude at helping the Tibetans. After a few decades of trolling for a Free Tibet, what exactly have you accomplished? I mean you cannot even deter a single Western mining company from drilling in Tibet.

Enjoy being mad mad mad and knowing there's nothing you can do about it. Cry cry cry more pwessse.

The Tibetans ARE being helped. If it wasn't for the outside world, China would have wiped the slate clean in Tibet a long time ago. You are not the first or the only CCP drone to have thought of a Tibetan genocide. The only reason it is still being discussed on these pages is largely due to the efforts of the outside world.
Enjoy your life playing the xbox. That is pretty much all the depth your overloaded braincell can handle.

FYI if I were to rebut with personal attacks of my own, it would probably be something like that you are a loser low-income and low-IQ Westerner who has nothing logical or factual to say so that he resorts to fantasy personal attacks in order to make himself feel better. You pretend to be a psychologist and projects himself onto others because that's all fake-wannabe-psychologists are able to do. But I'm above making fantasy personal attacks, so no I'm not going to say that.....

"If it wasn't for the outside world, China would have wiped the slate clean in Tibet a long time ago."

No actually the West is encouraging the Chinese to band together and genocide quicker and faster. You can be delusional and believe whatever you like (that you're helping the Tibetans with this internet trolling), but your delusions do not change facts.

BTW the fact that you delusional Free Tibet crowd thinks that you have done any good whatsoever is just ROFLMAO.

Can you offer a single piece of evidence to support your claim? (I have offered many pieces of evidence to support my claim, such as the fact that you have not been able to stop a single *Western* mining company from drilling in Tibet.)

Or are you just being delusional so that you can make yourself feel better?

"So I don't understand why, in terms of religious freedom, being able to display a picture of the XIV is such an important thing to Tibetans. "

Well, ask a fairly devout Catholic whether they have an image of the Pope (probably still John Paul II rather than Palpatine I) in their house, and you are probably more likely to get 'yes' for an answer.

"I didn't know that it's going on. In what ways exactly?"
CCP has been attempting to appoint prominent Lamas and Bishops directly, in direct contravention of the religious doctrines of both Tibetan Bhuddism and Roman Catholicism.

"The RCC's been nearly as political as other NGO's as can be. "
I agree with you. I am just pointing out similarities, not endorsing either.

Daveycool, I wad not saying that China has implemented apartheid in Tibet. That kind of regime is only necessary when the colonial population wants to grant full civil rights to its own kind, which is not the case in China. No problem granting full citizenship to Tibetans, since citizens can't choose their leaders anyway.

I was merely pointing out the absurdity of your remark that the DL's "Nobel is an inferior one to say Nelson Mandela's. The latter spent decades in jail for his beliefs fighting for his people who have actually been mistreated", where you tried to justify China's rule over Tibet with the fact that they had built schools and hospitals (and plumbing, which, they haven't really). Tibetans have suffered their fair share under China and it's a fact they have been mistreated in these last six decades. Hundreds of thousands have been murdered, many more sent into forced labor or fled to exile, most of their cultural heritage turned to rubble... and even if things have cooled down, Tibet is stll pretty much under undeclared martial law, with soldiers everywhere, arbitrary arrests, claims of torture and the usual lack of due process of those arrested, which often end up executed. I would say it is unfair to say that Tibetans have suffered less than black South Africans.

Also, Nelson Mandela did not fight just to end physical mistreatment of black South Africans, but actually to obtain full democratic rights for his people, so they could decide their fate by themselves in their homeland, much like the Dalai Lama demands for his people. His Nobel Prize is very much deserved, no matter how much that irks CCP apologists.

Gimme a break. They're being coddled to the point of not knowing how to survive without ever more government largesse. The problem with the Chinese government is that they have an imbalanced policy. Their programs cannot be that poisonous to anyone, not even Tibetans. The problem with Tibetans is that too many of them see everything from the government as something sinister -- no doubt indoctrinated by their monks whom they revere too much.

It might have been OK to leave things at that and somehow allow the forces of nature to force the issues on things one way or another. But this stagnation is proving to be a drain for the government but worse for Tibetans who resist (non-politically based programmes and) help. The saying that "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink" is at work here. The problem is that judging from the DL's and TGIE's constant complaining (that the economic benefits don't go to Tibetans) Tibetans are thirsty. Unless the reason why they don't drink is that they believe tha water is poison, maybe they just need an incentive to drink the water.

A year or two ago, I read about an experiment on education. An economist bribed students to get better grades. It failed even though the students in earnst wanted to make better grades AND earn the money. A second experiment yielded much better results. The students were bribed to read. For each book they read, they ere given $2 (these were first and second graders). They read voraciously. And their grades improved even though that wasn't the stated goal of the experiment. I believe this worked because the rewards were more immediate.

Maybe Tibetans just need a more immediate incentive for acquiring literacy and other skills -- for instance for every class they attend, they get $5, and for every 100 words they can read, they get $25. There was also a programme in a town or something in Mexico that paid parents to keep their children in school. It worked very well.

This is the sort of policy that the government needs to enact for Tibetans. The government should forget about tying programmes with the denunciation of the DL or other lamas. Knowledge will do the job. It will happen in a generation or two. Religiosity will not be eliminated but it will be relegated to the sidelines as it should be even for Tibetans.

Sorry, Daveycool, but I think you're wrong again. Relegating religion to the sidelines will not solve the conflict, because it is not a religious one. This is a colonial conflict, and as in most other colonial conflicts, religion plays an important role defining the opposing identities of colonized and colonizers, but the root cause will remain that nobody likes to be ruled by foreigners.

Tibet has a very well defined culture elaborated over thousands of years, their own language, script, political system, religion (of course) and a long history of independent rule. They will never regard themselves as Chinese, no matter how much China invests, represses or educates.

Education and material wealth will certainly co-opt many into accepting Chinese rule, but we all know that dissidence tends to appear among the educated middle and higher classes, so don't expect nationalism to vanish, but rather the opposite. China knows this well. That is why their preferred tactic to tackle the conflict is by flooding Tibet with its own people, let them dominate the economy, the administration, the education and every other aspect of life, and leave Tibetans as largely illiterate and impoverished second-class minority in their own ancestral homeland, conveniently repressed every time they dare to protest the arrangement.

As for your disparaging comments about the Tibetans' suffering during these past six decades of Chinese rule, I'd recommend you to talk to some of them, in Tibet or in exile, particularly the older ones. See if that cynicism of yours can stand it.