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A little help went a long way.

November 30, 2012 - 12:52pm

JOHN01473

A little help went a long way.

Since getting some great advice from Janetcook and dabrownman my baking is well back on track.I was inspired to bake some sourdough inspired variations.The first is my sourdough trencher.In Suffolk, England the trencher is a local bread normally made with yeast and shaped oval - I went sourdough.

Looking in my store cupboard I found some grains - kibbled wheat, cut malted rye grains and some malted wheat flakes. So I decided to go for a rye soaker - I went for the " Any grains you like..." by " PiPs". Rather than Linseed I used toasted pumpkin seeds. Just before baking I rolled it in malted wheat flakes. I baked it in a Dutch oven - rather pleased with the look - cant wait to slice and eat it.

The dried apricot and walnut sourdough was inspired by the pack of walnuts in the stock cupboard -the dried apricots are always present - used as sweets instead of chocolate.I used the fruit content weights from " Walnut Raisin Sourdough Bread from SFBI Artisan II" recipe from "dmsnyder".I toasted a slice then used butter - decadence abounds - it was superb. Think this will be a bit regular on the list to make.

The final sourdough loaf was a poppy seed and pumpkin seed sourdough.I used 50g of toasted poppy seeds and 25g toasted pumpkin seeds.

The basic recipe for my sourdough is:

Making the sponge

Ingredients

100g strong white bread flour

100g wholemeal flour

Two large spoonfuls of starter

200ml warm water - 70f

Bulk up

Ingredients

200g strong white bread flour

200g wholemeal flour

400g of sourdough sponge

12g salt

200ml warm water - 70f

Baked at 220c for 25 minutes then removed from the stone and flipped over and baked just on the rack for another 5 minutes.

The rest is history as they say - I weigh, time and monitor temperatures carefully. The maturing times for the starter and final proving times of the various loaves create good time management slots. A good day baking.

Thanks a lot to all recipe contributors and advisers.The Baking BearJohn

Comments

I see you have been very busy :-) These all sound very tasty indeed. It is nice to have a base formula to work off of and now you see all the places that one formula can lead you. Hold onto your hat :-) The fun has just begun....

struck by the natural, rustic shape and look of your breads. The non panned ones look like they were free formed on parchment and the craggy outside of the DO baked rye soaker bread that you rolled in malted wheat flakes is a treasure for sure. I have no idea where to get malted wheat flakes or what kibbled wheat even is and have never even heard or seen them before. You baked up a nice assortment of great looking breads John. Hope they taste as good as they look.

So how long does it take to make your sponge? Are you using stretch and folds or doing any retarding of the fermenting dough?

Malted wheat flakes : HERE Though I imagine John has an abundant supply being from the UK. I have bought and used these in breads. Very thick and good flavor but you can get similar results adding your non-diastatic malt to grains your flake yourself. Costs less and I know you always like a good bargain :-)

What John was referring to are malted wheat 'flakes'. (The link is for malted grains.) Which are like oatmeal but wheat berries are used as the flakes rather than oat groats. The flakes are malted so I am assuming that simply flake wheat berries and then malt them somehow.

I think you probably already get this flavor in the breads you bake since you add your malted grains to a lot of them. You are simply using the grains while he used flakes.

Janet is quite right - Malted Wheat Flakes are associated with the brewing of BEER. Here in Suffolk, England we have a large amount of beer brewing still carried out. The basic process of Malting grains is still carried out in the traditional manner. The grains are soaked and spread out on the malt house heated floor and left to mature. Like sourdough they have that particular beery smell - the fermenting process is stopped and the grains are then dried and then rolled. The malty sugars are a prominent flavour - I often just add some warm milk for a tasty breakfast cereal.

The kibbled wheat is coarse ground whole grain - many people use them to just coat the bread for a crunchy topping. Kibbled whole wheat (also known as cracked wheat) is made by coarsely stone milling whole wheat grain, then lightly cracking it. Kibbled whole wheat can add texture and nutrition.

I soaked the grains at 20°C for 12hrs.

i am lucky enough to have a traditional post mill not far from where i live, it is called Stanton Windmill.

Janet is quite right - Malted Wheat Flakes are associated with the brewing of BEER. Here in Suffolk, England we have a large amount of beer brewing still carried out. The basic process of Malting grains is still carried out in the traditional manner. The grains are soaked and spread out on the malt house heated floor and left to mature. Like sourdough they have that particular beery smell - the fermenting process is stopped and the grains are then dried and then rolled. The malty sugars are a prominent flavour - I often just add some warm milk for a tasty breakfast cereal.

The kibbled wheat is coarse ground whole grain - many people use them to just coat the bread for a crunchy topping. Kibbled whole wheat (also known as cracked wheat) is made by coarsely stone milling whole wheat grain, then lightly cracking it. Kibbled whole wheat can add texture and nutrition.

I soaked the grains at 20°C for 12hrs.

i am lucky enough to have a traditional post mill not far from where i live, it is called Stanton Windmill.

Stanton windmill is a post mill, one in which the whole of the superstructure, complete with sails and all machinery, turns on top of a single post. The mill dates from 1751 but was moved to its current location around 1818. It has been restored back to its former glory over the last twenty years and is the only windmill in Suffolk regularly producing flour, and one of only a handful of post mills still in working order in the UK.

The mill is privately owned by Dominic and Linda Grixti who bought Mill Farm in 2004. Funding for the mill's upkeep and restoration comes from visitors' entrance fees and sales of souvenirs and flour.

I went today to stock up on flour - there is something intrinsically magical in their flour, as if its greater than the sum of its parts.

The bread does indeed taste wonderful. My wife and our next-door neighbour are yeast intolerant; my sourdough loaves do not trigger their allergies.

Just a bit about my production method.

We have particularly hard and chemically smelling water so all my water is filtered.

All weights are in grams.

I place all my proving articles in plastic bags to prevent a tough skin forming.

8 am.

I remove 5g of the 60% starter (from your storage and make up) from the fridge.

I build the starter (using Janet's guidance)

Take 5g of 60% starter and add 10g of water at 70c and 15g of flour. This is placed at 70c-80c in the airing cupboard for 6 hours - this normally doubles in size and the smell of matured starter is present.

2 pm.

I feed again (using Janet's guidance) to the now 30g starter I add 60g of water at 70c and 90g of flour. This is again stored at 70c-80c in the airing cupboard for a further 6 hours - this again normally doubles in size and the smell of matured starter is strong.

8 pm

I build my sponge - I mix with a wooden spoon and beat in some air until smooth. The bowl is placed in a plastic bag and left overnight to ferment and prove. This is again stored at 70c-80c in the airing cupboard for a further 12 hours

8 am.

I remove the sponge from storage.

The bubbles show me that its ready to go and really active.

It's now time to build the final dough. I mix the dough in a stand mixer with a dough hook for about 5 minutes. This is a very wet sticky / loose dough at this stage.

The dough now gets stretched and folded for a few minutes and starts to stiffen. I carry on until the dough becomes springy and returns to the original shape when stretched and released.

I then start by grabbing a corner of the dough and pulling it to the centre of the dough then rotate the whole thing a fraction anti-clockwise and repeat the grab and pulling - working my way around the dough.

I am feeling for when the dough becomes tighter. When I feel it is tight enough I flour it and place it in a floured banneton.

I put the banneton into a plastic bag and it goes back into the airing cupboard at 70c-80c for three hours

I have tried retarding this dough in the fridge and found that it did not add anything discernable to me

10 am.

I check to see how dough is rising - if they are almost doubled I prepare the oven.

I put two pizza stones into the oven and pre-heat to 220c - this is a fan oven.

I place a tray in the bottom of the oven - this will have water added when the bread is put in the oven. This will give me the steam that gives me the crust we like.

11 am.

I remove the bannetons and flour the tops of the dough and remove one the HOT stone at a time and flip out the dough and place in the oven. I used to spray each loaf with water prior to going into the oven, but I have found its safer pouring the water in the hot tray after the bread goes into the oven.

11.25 am.

After 25 minutes I remove the stones from the oven and flip the bread oven and place them back into the oven just on the rack and bake for another five minutes.

11.30 am.

I remove from the oven and cool on a rack for about 4 hours. When cooled I put them in breathable bags and store the bread - I normally make two loaves at a time and freeze one.

hope this is not too drawn out and is helpful in some way.Thanks Again.The Baking Bear - John

Thanks for posting the information about 'your' post mill. That is truly an amazing feat of mechanical engineering. Do you know why it sits atop a 'post' rather than on the ground?

Your instructions are not too drawn out at all. A great photo essay of each step in the process so people like me, who need pictures, know what a ripened dough etc looks like.

Another question...Do you consider the time you are doing the kneading by hand as your bulk fermenting time? You mentioned that you stop kneading when you feel the dough has the strength you are seeking but you don't mention anything about how it is fermenting and how aerated your dough becomes during that time. I ask because I usually have a long bulk fermenting time when the dough isn't being handled after which I shape and proof it.

Hi Janet,The post allows the mill to be swivelled to gain the wind as it changes direction. The fantail (inside the red marked box) allows this to happen automatically, turning the mill to face the wind. The fantail has wheels that run on a brick track around the mill. This makes the mill one person operated.

I would not call the kneading by hand as your bulk fermenting time - I am trying to develop elasticity. It is not aerated at all - quite the opposite - dense and heavy.Once it goes into the banneton I do not touch or shape it again, it is left to finally proof and then it goes into the oven without touching it.The loaf that was baked in a tin was proofed in the baking tin after final mixing and minimal kneading- it is not knocked back after proving. I have in the past knocked back the dough after first proving - quite a lot of air does come out. I did not find any advantage in doing this so I stoppeddoing it.I would be interested to see your methods and times.You have made me curious, now with my powerful starter I think I could experiment a little, sounds like a side-by-side trial.

After 24 hours maturing post baking I cut into the rye any grains.

I am pleased with the look, taste and texture. I toasted a slice and the surface went white as the moisture reduced. The crust is crunchy and middle is soft and chewy. The taste is wonderful. The grains are soft and sweet, the only nutty edge is from the toasted pumpkin seeds. I am very pleased; it is exactly what I wanted.

I am fascinated by the post mill! Amazing how it works and so simple AND that it still works!

Your loaf looks very tasty. Yes, once you have a base to work off of, the fun begins because you can do all sorts of things :-)

I am happy to share what my times etc are like:

My leaven is usually ready to be mixed by about 5:00 P.M. so I put what I need into my mixer ( a DLX) and add the water. I run it on low until the leaven is thoroughly mixed in with the water. (I keep my leaven on the firmer side - 70%HL)

The leaven not used in the loaf, usually about 20g, gets put into the refrig. to be used for the next days loaf. I refrig. it because I don't want it to over ripen and break down. If it needs to be built up at all because I need more than 20g I feed it a bit and let it sit at room temp. for maybe an hour before putting into the cold.

This time of year my kitchen is about 68°.

I add the flour (freshly ground organic grains) and most of the rest of the ingredients (I hold back any nuts, seeds or fruits being added) at this time until all are just mixed together. It all sits in the mixer for about an hour which allows my whole grains time to soak up the water and also the gluten begins to develop which cuts down on mixing later.

When I return to the dough I adjust the water and flour if necessary to get the 'right' consistency. I then knead it in the mixer until it hits the strength I am after. A strong windowpane for a sandwich loaf or a medium one for lean loaves.....just depends on what I am going for with each loaf.

Once I have the strength right about where I want it I add fruits etc if they are included.

When the kneading is done I let the dough sit under a halogen desk lamp for an hour or two before putting it into the refrig. for an overnight bulk fermenting time. (I know it is ready for the refrig. when it shows signs of life - and has risen about 25 -30%)

In the morning I put the cold dough into my proofing box, 80°, for a couple of hours to warm up and finish rising if it hasn't risen completely. I also put the cold leaven in the box to warm up prior to beginning it's daily feeding schedule.

After everything is warm I shape and proof the dough - also done in the proofing box this time of year, which can take as short as 2 hours or as long as 4 hours depending on the dough, how it is shaped and it's ingredients.

I begin the day's leaven builds during this time too. My feeding schedule is different than yours due to the freshly ground grains that ripen quickly. I do a 1:.7:1 feed both of which take about 3 hours to ripen. It ripens under the halogen lamp that keeps the temp. at about 75° rather than the 80° in the proofing box... I go for smaller feeds to keep my leaven on the 'sweeter' side. This is accomplished by the fact that the yeast start doing 'their' thing more quickly than the LABs after a feed so it gives the yeast a leg up on the LABs...

Anyway, that is about it. Breads usually get baked by late morning or early afternoon depending on my schedule. I am home during the day so I can go at my own pace and this routine fits in nicely for me because it is really flexible.

Hi Janet,Yes - windmills are quite wonderfulThanks for posting your timings, I have extracted them and put them into a spreadsheetI can see you mix then autolyse, adjust and knead, bulk ferment and then retard in a fridge, warm up then shape and carry out the final proofing.Can I be cheeky and ask for your recipe and I will attempt to replicate it and report back via a posting.

Here is a link to a bread that I make a lot and uses the overnight method I use now. ( It is the recipe that got me started using the overnight retarding technique. ) HERE is a link to all of her breads which contains a gold mine of information on techniques for a wide variety of breads.

I have read through your base guideline and it is sinking in. I take it that your percentages are in relation to the flour - what I mean by that is salt is 2% in relation to the flour rather than 2% of the total dough weight - hope that came out right and makes sense.

The bakers maths is making more sense the more I work through it.

I have looked at the links and I have worked out a time schedule over the two days for production with bulk fermentation and overnight retard - will give that a try at the weekend.

At the moment on our TV here we have a programme called "the great British bake off". It's a competition for professional bakers - very interesting as some of them are quite artisan rather than just commercial production. Quite a few sourdoughs - one man has a starter that's 35 years old - I wonder if that's a record?

good news is that the owner of the mill where i get my flour is going to join here.

Yes, I did base all my %'s off of the total flour. Baker's math is the other thing that really changed my bread baking and I learned it here and in a couple of books but it really was quite simple once I got the hang of it. For me it helps me really understand the differences in doughs because instead of looking at quantities, which can all be different, and trying to compare I can look at the %'s and it all becomes crystal clear based on the numbers.

I remember when I first started using the math and Andy (Ananda) made the comment that he could tell everything about a dough by looking at just the numbers, especially the % of the pre-fermented flour, I was totally confused because they were simply #s to me then. Took me awhile to grasp what he meant and now I know.

What helped too was baking a lot of breads where I changed the ingredients around so I could see what the effects were - ie less pre-fermented flour = longer proofing time and the flavor changes that creates; higher sugar content = longer fermentation due to the sugar and yeast competing for the water; higher fat content = longer time for the gluten to develop but creates a really supple dough....It just kind of all clicked one day.

One of the things you will notice about the overnight production schedule is how much easier the dough is to handle the following day and how much it strengthens in the refrig. overnight. She also does loaves where she shapes them prior to refrigerating them so in the morning all she has to do is pop them into a hot oven. I am still not comfortable doing that because I am afraid of over proofing the dough.

Another thing I will mention that I found out by using her method and that is to leave lean doughs FIRM - almost too firm - because they loosen up as they ferment overnight. The enriched doughs do the opposite so they can be a bit loose.

As you can see she also does not list %'s for her ingredients. I ended up making formula sheets and figured it out myself based on her #'s. (Simple set of columns with one each for the ingredients then the % and then quantities followed by a 'notes' and time section.)

I was thinking that you might want to post the photos and information of the post mill in a separate posting so others might find it. They are tucked away here and not all people read through all of the blogs but I know several members have posted photos of other mills - I think one was in Canada and the other in the UK but I don't remember for sure - and they generated a lot of interest as there are people here who are very interested in real working mills. Nobody has presented a post mill and I can't help but think they will be as fascinated as I was by the structure. Just a thought :-)

Nice to know that the owner will join here....so much happens by word of mouth and the news flies all over the world....Amazing!

Yes the maths is certainly helping. I have set up some spreadsheets to help with the maths.

This is the basic sheet - I then move to the next level to be able to scale up and down.

This allows me to just change the contents of one box for the desired final dough weight required and it them recalculates everything using the conversion factor as laid out in Jeffrey Hamelman's book "Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes".

I have also made a timings sheet to keep me on track for activities.

The section on the mill has proved popular - it seems to me that with all the modern technology around me I crave to get back to the basics and strip away technology, the windmill does this for me. I will see what Linda from the mill plans on posting before I add any more.

I have for some time been thinking about the first farmers - the production of bread and beer, the relationship between yeast in bread and beer production. I follow the line that to know where we come from helps point us towards the way to go forward. I have pretty much sorted it out from various sources to where it makes sense to me. The path took me back to 9000 BC. I am not sure if it would be of interest to anyone else, maybe not worthy of posting.

In last nights episode of "the great British bake off". One of the bakers made what he called "beer barm bread". He used the surface yeast skimmed from fermenting beer to create a starter. He added some malt and cold mashed potato - this was left for 24 hours, in fridge I think. It was referred to as ferment. He the added flour, water and molasses and let it ferment for 12 hours. After adding flour and butter he rested it for 20 minutes to allow the gluten to develop after adding salt he hand kneaded the dough until it was smooth. He then went on to show "the gluten windowpane" he got from his dough. The dough went into bannetons to prove and shape before slashing and baking. The final loaf look wonderful, a great crust and soft airy crumb.

It seems that Artisan Bread making has become as popular today as legwarmers were here in the 1980s.

My 'spreed sheets' aren't as high tech :-) I am a hands on type person and computers still make me nervous. Writing calms me down and I like doing the math myself. Keeps my brain cells active :-}

JH does explain the math really well. I didn't know you owned a copy of that book. It is excellent in all the information it contains.

The barm bread is also one of the recipes in The Hand Made Loaf by Dan Leopard. If you haven't seen a copy of that book it is excellent to as it is really basic....breads taken from homes of home bakers like ourselves from throughout Europe. Only hands needed to make the loaves it contains. He has another unique way of kneading that works very nicely.

I have been using spreadsheets for so many years - I trust them more than I do myself - they keep my brain active.

The Jeffrey Hamelman's book "Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes" seems to be aimed more at bulk makers. The recipes do show scale for bulk production right down to home baking quantities. The good thing is with Bakers Math is that I can scale the recipes down to a size that I like. It's a very comprehensive book that explains things very well.

I ordered a copy of "The Hand Made Loaf" book by Dan Leopard from Amazon - a new copy for £8.50 incl delivery - bargain.

So the experiment is on - I have produced an amount of starter to perform a side-by-side experiment. I am using volumes from my old standard recipe and the Walnut Raisin Sourdough Bread recipe from SFBI Artisan II. The flour for both recipes come from the same bags - to create equality - I am using two flours to make each recipe. I have gone for my Marriages Strong White bread flour and Stanton Post Mill Wholemeal.

My usual recipe starter is in the airing cupboard at 70-80f overnight - about 12 hours.Tomorrow I will bulk it up - autolyse - knead - then refrigerate for 24 hours.

The Walnut Raisin Sourdough Bread has had 60 minutes Autolyse in the airing cupboard at 70-80f - I could see that all the water was well absorbed. It then got a knead in my machine for 10 minutes - there was a good window so I added the rest of the ingredients - mixed and carried out "stretch and fold" for 2 minutes.

It went in the airing cupboard to bulk ferment for 2 hours.

It shows the growth i was expecting - its now gone into the fridge for an overnight rest.

I have not adjusted the starter. The reason for this is I wanted to keep things as equal all the way through as possible. My last experience of retard was as you say a pile of goo. I am hoping I have defined my experiment enough to show the retard effect.

I will start a new thread as this one is getting longer and with the mill bits in it I don't want to confuse people.

I recovered one of my bannetons with new cloth - not too shabby a job I think - I quite enjoyed this.

Please look out for my experiment post as I greatly appreciate the feedback.

Nice covers. I used to use them but found dusting my brotforms works just as well and the maintenance is easier in the long run. I just use a combination of ww and rice flours and most dough drop right after proofing.

The baker who taught me to use bannetons advised me that there is a danger of over wetting them and hosting mold. The baskets inside are willow, these dry out quite quickly. When I was in France earlier this year I saw that all their bannetons were sewn in rather than the liner held in by elastic.

I sprinkle them with strong bread flour prior to using them. After using them I bang out any remaining flour and then dry them in the airing cupboard. The French bakers I spoke to did the same as me.

The last set lasted two years using them this way without problems.

I have completed the Walnut and Dried Apricot loaf test and the results were so amazing to me that I decided to make a separate post about it all with pictures. The sourdough test is even more important for me to carry out. I should finish that test tomorrow.

Great looking bread John, and the step by step pictures are wonderful. The post mill is something I had never known existed before, and what a creative idea it is. Your link's picture of it is the prettiest post mill on the net I think. Thanks for adding it to your post.

Just had time to watch these. Fascinating. Makes me wonder how people ever came up with the idea for these so many years ago.

I love the simplicity. Gears, levers and pulleys.... Just a few moving parts and look what they do.

I can imagine that working in the ones still being used keeps one in excellent shape with all of the physical work required. The man in the 3rd video makes it all look so simple and effortless. What a commitment! All I have to do is push a button and I have a bowl full of flour in less than 5 minutes.....

I watched and rewatched the DeZandhaas' corn mill video. I had little idea of all that goes into its operation. Lard to grease the axle, beeswax for the wooden cogs, pointing the sails into the wind, dressing the stones, that fellow seemed to be everywhere. I loved the sounds in that mill, the vibrating, and creaking, and clanking. I think I am hooked on windmills, and I have a new respect for my daily bread, though I come by flour a bit easier, I'll be more mindful of the way things were. Thanks again John.

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