Donny and Marie on Mormon Bigotry

Someone posted this video to Facebook and I find it incredibly creepy. It’s a 1978 Barbara Walters interview with Donny and Marie Osmond and she asks them about the Mormon church’s views on the subordination of black people and women. Their answers are disturbing on pretty much every level.

httpv://youtu.be/QuSde2jGhm8

I find it creepy because it’s so obvious that they have simply shut off their brains. The church teaches it and that settles it, no matter how bigoted it is. Black people and women aren’t allowed to hold positions of authority in the church because that’s just the way God wants it, so who are we to question it? That idea just makes me shudder.

The Mormon church also changes its theology every once in a while. They even “edit” their Book of Mormon.

And let’s not forget how they “baptize” dead people into their faith, and lie about it, claiming those people were Mormons all along.

http://www.decrepitoldfool.com georgewiman

Remember that Star Trek episode where everybody was brainwashed by “The Will Of Landru”? Not as unrealistic as you might think. The Mormon Church uses different methods but result seems similar.

http://www.rodlamkey.net reverendrodney

helenenouwens @ 3:

Thanks for that link. If even totally immersed Mormons, as Marie had been, can see the light, there is hope.

Michael Heath

This interview is from 1978, I think that’s the very year that the LDS church ended its prohibition against male black priest-holders; at least according to the Wikipedia page on Mormonism though without a cite.

Donny Osmond:

“We’re not a prejudiced people.”

I wonder who “We’re” is referencing? Mormons in good standing with the LDS church, his immediate family, him and Marie?

Of course Mr. Osmond’s assertion they’re, whoever they are, are not bigots is still demonstrably false. He validated that by failing to work to publically to reform his church’s teachings on the matter, or quit. This is a perfect example of us sharing a responsibility to minimize human suffering and evil where so many people instead deflect their own responsibility while effectively enabling this activity to continue.

Donny Osmond:

That’s the way the Lord wants it.

This type of rationalization, normally used to deflect the fact one is demonstrably wrong even to one’s own standards, remains a highly pervasive argument in the Christian and evangelical churches as well towards both females, gays, and gays’ families. Their denominational bylaws, based on biblical dogma, formally discriminates against these groups, which they somehow rationalize makes them not bigots when in fact it makes them far bigger bigots than if they merely harbored these prejudices individually. All the while falsely posing as innocents free from responsibility.

So while Mormons and most other conservative Christian denominations have formally eradicated such institutional bigotries against blacks, they still use the same type of arguments and defective rationalizations to discriminate against females, gays, and gays’ families.

And Marie Osmond’s sentiments about women having a second class status, while frequently not practiced outside conservative Christian churches even by members of these churches (which includes the LDS church), is still frequently practiced within even the most liberal-appearing evangelical biblically inerrantist churches. So as shocking as her comment is, it remains the status quo within conservative Christianity, at least when it comes to the interactions within the church of its members and their children.

Does anyone know if women professors are allowed at conservative Christians’ so-called colleges and universities?

David C Brayton

I have a good friend that is Mormon. The cognitive dissonance is strong with him. Professionally, he is a computer programmer and for fun, he is an advanced amateur astronomer. But when it comes to the church, poof, all reasoning goes out the window.

I’ve come to the conclusion that he has too much invested in his life with the church. If he were to to leave the church, he would be shunned by everyone he was friends with (and the church is excellent at building a strong, caring and supportive network) and his family. His parents were Mormon and he has been active in the church his entire life. For him to leave would be a monumental event in his life.

So, when it comes to astronomy, he appreciates the beauty of science and he admires Carl Sagan as much as I do. But when it comes to his religion, he is proud of the strange contortions and justifications of his theology.

And I can understand this. To have a large group that you can count on for support is wonderful. To have a large group that you have something is common with is very reassuring. His activities with the Boy Scout troop earn him praise and appreciation and he finds its rewarding to teach kids how to behave and strive for a goal.

When I was in college, I was in a fraternity. It was one of the best experiences of my life and I miss those friends still. His church and my fraternity have much in common in terms of building friendship and community.

So, my point is…..actually, I don’t have a point other than the attitudes expressed in this video are real, understandable but not admirable.

Michael Heath

Re David C. Brayton’s post:

If I had to select the best half-hour fictional shows I’ve ever encountered, one of the best would be South Park’s show on Mormons. That show did a great job of revealing the motivations on why apparently sane people will justify associating themselves and practicing insane beliefs. What I don’t find the adults in these denominations adequately weigh, which isn’t addressed in this episode, is the effective immorality they practice given their religious practices and associations.

We see this with the Osmonds here. Their positions are demonstrably bigoted and immoral. [Defining immoral as causing or advancing human suffering at worst, at best preventing a marginal increase in human wellbeing.]

I believe Hulu has the referenced episode; some cable TV channel just rebroadcast it a couple of nights ago.

exdrone

The thesis of the clip seems to be that women and black people are better off not being in power positions because old white guys are going to make better decisions for them. Yikes.

Thank you helenenouwens@3 for the later Marie Osmond link. It reassures me that people can awaken from religious trances.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1174961897 harikhalsa

The Mormon God changed His views on black people when the Civil Rights movement became too established to ignore, just as He changed His views on polygamy when the US government started cracking down on it. He is nothing if not practical.

raven

The thesis of the clip seems to be that women and black people are better off not being in power positions because old white guys are going to make better decisions for them.

They know old white guys are supposed to rule because…old white guys told them that.

http://www.facebook.com/andrewasante andrewbrown

@13 raven,

No, no you’ve got it all wrong. The old white guys aren’t rulers because they’re old whit guys, it’s because god told them they were. It just so happens that everything god told the old white guys works out to the advantage of old white guys. So you see it’s not prejudice at all, simply being god’s humble servant.

chilidog99

So, I take it Mormons no longer think that 6′ tall quakers live on the moon?

RickR

Around the time of the ’08 election, when the passage of Prop 8 in California was a hot topic, I had several lengthy conversations online with Mormons (at the Americans United blog and elsewhere) about the concept of equality in society, and how the mormon church and its involvement was a concerted effort to thwart that concept by working to enforce the bigotry of their doctrine on people who were not mormons.

My time would have been better spent banging my head against a brick wall. Time and again I ran afoul of the enormous sense of entitlement instilled in church members by their leaders. In short, mormons are entitled to rule, and if the rest of us push back or call them on it in any way, we were full of “intolerance” and “hatred”.

These conversations were indescribably creepy.

leonardschneider

Ah, Mormonism. The Scientology of the Ol’ West!

kennyanderson

I am Mormon. Comments about women being second class citizens is completely incorrect. We look at men and women as being equals, (just ask my wife). Just because we have different responsibilities doesn’t mean one is less important than the other. We believe that man and woman complement each other.

kennyanderson

Here is the official position of the church.

Women play an integral role in the work of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. While women are not ordained to the priesthood in the Church and do not therefore officiate in rites such as blessing the sacramental emblems or baptizing, they serve in senior leadership positions and as missionaries and teachers, and they routinely preach from the pulpit and lead congregational prayers in worship services.

kennyanderson

Here is the official position of the church relative to race.

The gospel is for all people. Those of all ethnic groups have always been welcome in the Church and have been baptized as members, preached from the pulpit and offered prayers in congregations. Though there was never any policy in the Church of segregated congregations, male members of African decent were not ordained to priesthood offices. That changed in June of 1978 and the Church immediately began ordaining active black male members to priesthood offices wherever they attended throughout the world. In 2006, then Church president Gordon B. Hinckley declared that “no man who makes disparaging remarks concerning those of another race can consider himself a true disciple of Christ. Nor can he consider himself to be in harmony with the teachings of the Church. Let us all recognize that each of us is a son or daughter of our Father in Heaven, who loves all of His children.”

Michael Heath

kennyanderson:

I am Mormon. Comments about women being second class citizens is completely incorrect. We look at men and women as being equals, (just ask my wife). Just because we have different responsibilities doesn’t mean one is less important than the other. We believe that man and woman complement each other.

Women are not treated as equals by the Mormon church. For example, men set the parameters of behavior to remain a female in good standing. Your complementary argument is also bogus. Men predetermine which roles women can play in the church regardless of a woman’s talents. If a woman has outstanding executive qualities, she is still prohibited from leading the church because she’s a woman. Are you lying or so deluded you can’t recognize this reality?

http://www.decrepitoldfool.com georgewiman

Right. Women are “separate, but equal” right Kenny?

Seems to me the Mormon God at least reads the newspapers.

Michael Heath

kennyanderson:

The gospel is for all people.

Families headed by a same-sex couple are treated equally by the church relative to white heterosexual familes? Right . . . Re CA’s Prop 8 vote, do you know how much money and effort was expended by individual Mormons leveraging the resources and apparatus of the LDS church to deny gay people and their children equal standing and the equal exercise of their rights? Are you a conscious hypocrite or so deluded you can’t perceive how your religion lies about its past and energetically promotes bigotry even today?

When you start accepting all people into your religion and allow them to earn their standing in the church based on the quality of their character and their demonstrated performance, then you might have an argument. Until then you remain not merely a large collection of bigots, but the worst kind of bigots; ones who spend enormous amounts of money and collective energy to institutionalize their bigotry to maximize their ability to discriminate against women, GLBTs and their children.

Rather than incompetently attempt to propagate a fraud as you do here, why not instead confront the reality of your faith and your church and not commit yourself to correcting from within what is obviously and objectively immoral about your church? Or quit, and take good hot metaphorical shower to clean the filth of bigotry from yourself.

http://www.facebook.com/andrewasante andrewbrown

Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.

Brigham Young.

Was he not a disciple of Christ then? Under this man I would have been executed and my two beautiful children regarded as less than human. Forgive me for assuming that he means what he says. I know that Mormons try to spin this as out of paternal concern for the poor downtrodden black folks, but what it actually demonstrates is his god given insight was no better than any other humans, and that it was rationalising the slavery he supported.

Your organisation (I refuse to call it a church or a cult) is a racist sexist business organisation hiding its hatred and bigotry behind pearly white teeth and an ‘aw shucks’ Donny Osmond demeanour.

It may just be that you’re simply utterly ignorant of your own organisation’s history or alternatively you just simply ignore the bits you don’t like and don’t apply to you.

Many people here know their Mormon having escaped its clutches. Don’t assume that you can spout stuff here and not be called on it.

dingojack

“Here is the official position of the church relative to race”.

Note the present tense.

Pre-Civil Rights Act this was certainly not the official position, then – voilà! – a new revelation came that agreed exactly with the new civil position.

From then on it was: ‘we had always been at war with Eurasia‘. Straight from the religious playbook, 1984.

While women are not ordained to the priesthood in the Church and do not therefore officiate in rites such as blessing the sacramental emblems or baptizing

Some roles are best suited to the masculine nature and others to the feminine nature. Both the scriptures and the patterns of nature place man as the protector, the provider.

Hint: Sexist.

Those responsibilities of the priesthood which have to do with the administration of the Church of necessity function outside the home. By divine decree, they have been entrusted to men. It has been that way since the beginning, for the Lord revealed that “the order of this priesthood was confirmed to be handed down from father to son. … This order was instituted in the days of Adam.”

Hint: Sexist.

A man who holds the priesthood does not have an advantage over a woman in qualifying for exaltation. [:::snort:::] The woman, by her very nature, is also co-creator with God [That’s you, isn’t it–no wonder so many insecure wimps become Mormons] and the primary nurturer of the children. Virtues and attributes upon which perfection and exaltation depend come naturally to a woman and are refined through marriage and motherhood.

Hint: Sexist.

The priesthood is conferred only upon worthy men in order to conform to our Father’s plan of happiness. With the laws of nature and the revealed word of God working in harmony, it simply works best that way.

Hint: Sexist

While the different roles of man and woman are set forth in exalted celestial declarations, they are best demonstrated in the most practical, ordinary, down-to-earth experiences of family life.

Hint: Sexist

BTW:

Why does your church push the woman-hating concept of not allowing divorce? When I see a religion that forbids divorce, I see a religion that loathes women. By the way, isn’t it true that your cult requires a woman who gets a legal divorce to go into excruciating details about her private life to elders to prove she hasn’t committed adultery, just to get the cancellation of sealing?

Why is it that men get to be kings of planets in your make-believe hereafter while women get to be, yet again, wipers of your worthless, lazy asses? And that polygamy thing in your magic make-believe land? Do tell us how it is that you guys get a bunch of women to wait on your sorry asses and bear your half-wit spawn forever, but women can’t have multiple husbands, or, you know, spend eternity more productively?

Why does your cult allege that women can’t be saved unless they are married to a Melchezedek in your palace of stupid (aka Temple)? How about that secret name so the husband can pull his wife into heaven, eh? She can’t get there on her own, can she? Be honest.

HInt: Sexist. Sexist. Sexist. Sexist.

Who leads the prayers, dear, and confers blessings on the spouse and children during prayers? Come on. You know this. Hint: It isn’t the spouse with the XX chromosome, is it? Here. Let me help:

Fourth, take time to pray with your children. Family prayers, under the direction of the father, should be held morning and night.

and this:

Have Weekly Home Evenings. Fifth, take time to have a meaningful weekly home evening. With your husband presiding, participate in a spiritual and an uplifting home evening each week.

Hint: Sexist. The implication is that women aren’t fit to lead in your moronic cult.

How about this:

Mothers, this kind of heavenly, motherly teaching takes time—lots of time. It cannot be done effectively part-time. It must be done all the time in order to save and exalt your children. This is your divine calling.

Did you really think we were as stupid about your delusion as you are?

Your cult is sexist and bigoted. It’s not our fault that you’re too brainwashed into stupid by your cult to know what sexism even is.

raven

Kenny the Mormon internet patroler:

I am Mormon.

Well so what? A member of an abusive mind control cult that a convicted con man made up that spreads bigotry everywhere.

BTW, the Mormons have an internet patrol that pops up to lie about their religion. Most likely Kenny is one of them

Comments about women being second class citizens is completely incorrect.

This is an outrageous lie. No women are permitted to hold leadership roles in the Mormon church. There is always a male over them. They keep close watch on them because it is so male dominated and male privileged.

raven

As one who grew up with and has known dozens of Mormons and have family in Utah, and spent a lot of time there, I know.

1. Wherever Mormons have numerical majority, they oppress and discriminate against “gentile”, that is anyone not a Real Jew, that is a Mormon. Utah is gerrymandered by religion so that while it is only 60% LDS, the state legislature is virtually all Mormon. It’s just your right to vote and you really didn’t miss it anyway.

2. It is a high cost, authoritarian religion. People drop out a lot. It’s estimated that half of all US Mormons are inactive, apathetic, or just gone.

3. Retention rates of new converts is about zero. Unless you are born into it and exposed to continuous, constant brainwashing, it just seems hard to accept.

raven

SLT Peggy FLetcher Stack:

And most telling, the number of Latter-day Saints who are considered active churchgoers is only about a third of the total, or 4 million in the pews every Sunday, researchers say.

and

Graphing activity: When the Graduate Center of the City University of New York conducted an American Religious Identification Survey in 2001, it discovered that about the same number of people said they had joined the LDS Church as said they had left it. The CUNY survey reported the church's net growth was zero percent.

Docmentation of some of my points.

Mormons claim to be the One True Religion and the Real Jews. All other xians are Fake much less all other religions.

They also claim due to a prophecy that they will one day rule the USA and the world. I’ve always been wary of wannabe theocrats. It never ends well.

It probably won’t ever happen. The Mormons claim 6 million US members, many inactive. The No Religions are around 60 million and growing rapidly as US xianity shakes itself apart. Sorry Kenny, you will probably always just be weird people with a lot of disaffected members leaving for a normal life as free people.

dingojack

“The No Religions [in the US] are around 60 million and growing rapidly… ”

I’m interested, do you have a citation for this?

Dingo

raven

“The No Religions [in the US] are around 60 million and growing rapidly… ”

I’m interested, do you have a citation for this?

Dingo

Yes. This is synthesized from all available data sources, far more than just a citation.

The Pew surveys. The Gallup polls. The National Council of Churches yearly survey. The ARIS survey is probably the best.

The numbers vary and jump around. But it all indicates that 1 to 2 million people leave US xianity every year. Xians run around 76% of the population and dropping fast.

Less than half of those self described xians attend a church.

The churches themselves cook their numbers and sometimes pretty outrageously. The Mormons just count baptisms and a lot of baptized Mormons haven’t been in a church in years. Catholics do the same. The RCC claimed last year that their membership was up 1%. The reality is that 22 million Catholics have left that church. A huge difference.

raven

Vancouver Sun Douglas Todd

The Catholic church is losing huge numbers of members. If ex-Catholics were their own denomination, they would make up the third largest denomination in the United States, according to The National Catholic Reporter. Canadians have much to learn from a powerful new study released by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, which shows that one out every 10 Americans is now an ex-Catholic. {Scroll through my take on more Catholic church issues.}

“Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why. But the U.S. bishops have never devoted any time at their national meetings to discussing the exodus. Nor have they spent a dime trying to find out why it is happening,” writes Jesuit Father Thomas Reese continues

Here is one data point. 10% of the US population are ex-Catholics.

Odd factoid. The Catholic church and the LDS have traditionally hated each other. They both are One True Religions. They both have Popes, although the Mormon one is called the First President when he isn’t called the Chief Prophet, Revelator, and Seer. They both have Vaticans, Rome and SLC, Utah. That they occasionally cooperate is strange. It must be that right wing extremist politics and hatred of women overcomes their natural antipathy as christofascist theocratic wannabees.

Or maybe they just hate the same groups more than they hate each other.

dingojack

Raven – you keep insisting these figures are true, and yet they seem to me to be rather rubbery and nonsensical (as I have indicated on an earlier thread).

Dingo

raven

Raven – you keep insisting these figures are true, and yet they seem to me to be rather rubbery and nonsensical (as I have indicated on an earlier thread).

Dingo

I’ve posted the data and reasoning many times, enough to be bored with it. I just posted some more once again. With my sources.

I’m not your mother or your search engine. Google is.

Look it up yourself. The National Council of churches yearbook for 2011 is a start. The ARIS survey is readily accessible with a few minutes on google.

raven

total church membership reported in the 2011 Yearbook is 145,838,339 members, down 1.05 percent over 2010.

Accoding to the National Council of Churches, in 2011, 1.5 million people left the churches.

This data isn’t too reliable. It’s probably a lot more. The same survey showed the RCC was up 1%. Which can’t be right. The RCC just reports baptisms, which means they will never show a loss.

The reality is 22 million people have left that church recently.

wheatdogg

Dear KennyAnderson,

You contradict yourself, do you know?

You said:

We look at men and women as being equals.

Followed shortly later by:

While women are not ordained to the priesthood in the Church and do not therefore officiate in rites such as blessing the sacramental emblems or baptizing …

Equality means everyone has at least the chance to do the same job. Thus, if Mormon men and women are in fact equal, women could be priests just as men are.

Saying they “complement” each other is a copout. There are no other positions in the LDS church in which women can serve that has the same status in the hierarchy as the priesthood, for example. Likewise, no woman could ever be First President.

Relying on Scripture to justify this separation of duties and opportunities might work in the insular world of the LDS, but it doesn’t wash in the wider world. In fact, there are religious organizations and churches which do allow women to be ordained, and they find no contradictions between that policy and Biblical Scripture. Yes, I know the LDS considers those churches to be apostate, but you’re all reading the same Bible, aren’t you? They must have some good reasons to let women be priests.

Reform Jews also allow women to be rabbis.

As for this statement of yours,

Though there was never any policy in the Church of segregated congregations, male members of African decent were not ordained to priesthood offices. That changed in June of 1978 …

You need to ask yourself why there was such a change in 1978. Why were black men prohibited from the priesthood before 1978? Could it have been because they were … black? If LDS is the One True Church, surely God or Joseph Smith or Brigham Young would have laid down the law at the very beginning. For the point of view of us on the more cynical outside, the sudden 1978 revelation to let those of African descent into the priesthood seems rather like a fortuitous attempt to catch up with the times. For Pete’s sake, the Catholics had plenty of non-white priests, bishops and even cardinals well before 1978.

Kenny, you may be a drive-by troller, but you need to consider these points. Asking questions about your faith is not a sin, I hope.

dingojack

In fact, Raven, as you well know, you reluctantly posted the sources only after I asked for them at least twice. And again, as you well know, I explained the problems I had with the rubbery figures and how they didn’t really add up.

I’m not your mother look them up yourself.

😉 Dingo

dingojack

Raven – 145,838,339 members of the Catholic Church? 46.5592% of Americans are Catholics?

CIA Factbook puts the number at round 74,862,459.

As I have said before I’m not accusing you, or anyone else posting here, of lying, merely the figures of doing so.

Dingo

—–

PS: 22M is about 7.02% of the US population.

No One

KennyAnderson.

Tell us about the magic underwear. Pleeeeeeeeease?

‘Comon man, defend that will you?

Pffffffft! Your religion is a cartoon.

raven

Dingo:

Raven – 145,838,339 members of the Catholic Church? 46.5592% of Americans are Catholics?

CIA Factbook puts the number at round 74,862,459.

What are you going on about?

The NCC figures are for all reporting xian churches, most but not all major US xian sects. Only one of which is Catholic. You could have looked this up in 4 seconds, it’s a commmonly accessed report. Or just figured it out by reading in one second.

The CIA figure for US Catholics seems a bit high, most times it is reported a bit lower. But it is in the right neighborhood.

PS: 22M is about 7.02% of the US population.

The one in ten US citizens are ex-Catholics is cut and pasted in message 35. ” Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, which shows that one out every 10 Americans is now an ex-Catholic.”

The figure is from the “Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life” once again copied. How this is figured out isn’t indicated but people leave religions all the time.

Most likely the 10% figure encompasses all US citizens now living who left the RCC in their lifetime. The 22 million figure is recent. This is also explained in message 35, and is from Catholic sources. It also isn’t reflected in a lot of current statistics because the RCC like a lot of churches cooks its numbers to try and look more powerful.

http://polrant@blogspot.com democommie

KennyAnderson:

You come here and post a lot of specious nonsense about how the SLC Moron Church cherishes it’s distaff members so much that they would NEVER threaten their innocence by forcing them into a position of authority.

Apparently, you fucking moron, you’re unfamiliar with this here blog. Lying fuckweasels* who come here to defend their idiotically fabulist belief systems–especially those that have even LESS grounding in ancient texts than the various branches of KKKristianity–can expect to be treated like, well, gosh, lying fuckweasels.

I wish I had your address so I could send you one of the gift mugs I saw recently. It says, “Here’s your big ol’ mug of SHUT THE FUCK UP!”.

* Exhibit A: KennyAnderson, 1 each.

crunch

Hello, I’m one of the 14 million brainwashed zombie Mormons. I am happy to defend the church. I’m sure I’ll be attacked with 1,000 responses. I’ve been a member my entire life (43 yrs) and have always been active. I’ve lived in 6 different states in the US and have been associated with members in many different locations. I’ve held positions of leadership and have seen the church work from the inside. The members of the LDS faith are the most honest, intelligent, generous and faithful people you’ll ever meet on the face of this earth. I’m not saying they don’t exist, however, I myself have never met a racist Mormon. In fact, from the day this church was restored in 1830, all HELL has attempted to destroy this great church through slander, theft, murder and all types of false information. If any honest person were to see all the good that this church has done for the world, they would immediately have a deep respect for the sacrifice and generosity of it’s members. I have seen this through first-hand experience my entire life.

I am willing to have an honest discussion with anyone who can speak with maturity. I learned a long time ago that a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. The honest in heart will learn truth and grow from it. However, those who mock with prejudice ideas will never have a desire for truth, unless they change. There are some things the skeptic will never know. I hope to have an honest open mature discussion.

I understand there are many things non-Mormons don’t understand about our religion. The same was true for the early Christians during the days of Christ as well as all true followers of God from the days Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and other generations. Whenever the true church of Christ has been on the earth, there has always been persecution. Whenever the true church of Christ has been on the earth, there has also always been true prophets and revelation from God (new scripture). If I hadn’t been a member myself and known the things I know, I might have felt the same way myself. It is obvious the Romans and Jews REALLY did not like the teachings of Jesus Christ and the early Christians. They crucified the savior and brutally killed the apostles ordained by Christ himself.

I’m sure all the anti-Mormons will want to bring up all their favorite things to talk about including polygamy, blacks & the priesthood, gay marriage, magic underwear, moon people and whatever else they can dig up. They have a false reality of what Mormon’s believe. Although I’m happy to discuss all these issues and more, none of them will bring a person closer to an understanding of the truth.

God in His wisdom knew the wickedness that would exist in the latter days and the prophet Isaiah prophesied of our day today. The Lord said through Isaiah “Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.” (Isaiah 29:14) The Lord brought forth the Book of Mormon as evidence that His true gospel has been restored. It all hangs on that book. If the Book of Mormon is the word of God, then Joseph Smith is a true prophet. If Joseph Smith is a true prophet, then every revelation he received from God is also true (yes just like ALL the true prophets of old). We can study, ponder and pray to know for ourselves if these things are true. God has promised the Holy Ghost will reveal the truth of these things to the honest in heart. Once we know it is true by the power of the Holy Ghost, we are then expected to follow the true and living prophet of God. I know for myself that these things are true. We are obligated to continue to gain as much education and knowledge as possible. We should continue to pray to God and receive constant guidance from His Spirit. This is God’s true pattern and has been the same since the time of Adam.

crunch

“Tell us about the magic underwear. Pleeeeeeeeease?

‘Comon man, defend that will you?

Pffffffft! Your religion is a cartoon.”

First of all, we don’t call garments “magic underwear” and never have. It is only an attempt from others to mock that which we hold as sacred and holy. It takes a certain spiritual maturity to understand.

Here are a few things you can read that will give you something to think about. Of course, most of these apocryphal writings were not available to Joseph Smith in his day.

“Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.” (Genesis 3:21)

What were these “coats of skins” that the Lord made? Why didn’t Adam and Eve make their own “coats of skins”?

Apocryphal writings suggest this garment given to Adam was passed down to Enoch and then to Noah. Noah’s son Ham then stole the garment. (Genesis 9:18-27) Ham gave it to his son Cush who gave it to his son Nimrod. Nimrod was the king of Babel and caused the Tower of Babel to be built. Apocryphal ancient writing suggest Nimrod was a might ruler and hunter because of the garment which he wore. Esau, the twin brother to Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham, killed Nimrod and took the garment.

The apocryphal book of Jasher says the following after Esau killed Nimrod, “And when Esau saw the mighty men of Nimrod coming at a distance, he fled, and thereby escaped; and Esau took the valuable garments of Nimrod, which Nimrod’s father had bequeathed to Nimrod, and with which Nimrod prevailed over the whole land, and he ran and concealed them in his house.

And Esau took those garments and ran into the city on account of Nimrod’s men, and he came unto his father’s house wearied and exhausted from fight, and he was ready to die through grief when he approached his brother Jacob and sat before him.

And he said unto his brother Jacob, Behold I shall die this day, and wherefore then do I want the birthright? And Jacob acted wisely with Esau in this matter, and Esau sold his birthright to Jacob, for it was so brought about by the Lord.” (Jasher 27: 10-12)

The birthright sold to Jacob was this holy garment of the priesthood. Jacob then has 12 sons or the 12 tribes of Israel. He gives this special garment to his son Joseph. All Joseph’s brothers are extremely jealous. The Bible refers to it as the “coat of many colours”, however, you’ll notice in the Bible the word “many” is always in italics. This translation was put there by modern editors. They tried to make sense of the Hebrew meaning. It was a garment of certain marks.

In the tenth century of our era the greatest antiquarian of the Moslem world, Muhammad iben-Ibrahim ath-Tha’labi, collected in Persia a great many old tales and legends about the prophets of Israel. You can read about it here: http://www.einarerickson.com/content/view/89/39/

Sacred garments were used by Aaron, Moses & the Levites who held the priesthood when performing temple ordinances.

41 The cloths of service to do service in the holy place, and the holy garments for Aaron the priest, and his sons’ garments, to minister in the priest’s office. (Exodus 39:41)

http://www.decrepitoldfool.com georgewiman

Garments that you wear under your outer clothes are pretty much underwear. And if they “do service in the holy place” then they’re magic.

Using more words and referring to some holy book doesn’t make them not magic underwear.

You believe this stuff, and that’s fine. But your church can’t seem to keep its nose out of non-believers’ secular business, and that’s not fine.

crunch

Hi georgewiman,

I understand your point. However, I suppose you could describe just about anything in any religion as “magic”. Catholics have rosary beads, holy water, etc. Prayer must be magic if one believes God will answer the prayer. Every religion has their religious clothing they use to symbolize something special to them. We wear ours on the inside as a personal commitment to the Savior Jesus Christ and as a constant reminder of the sacred promises we have made to follow Him. I simply showed from ancient texts how this garment was used anciently as well. It wasn’t just made up recently. It was restored along with other truths that had long been lost over the centuries.

There is a lot of hatred and misunderstanding for our church. I understand that. Much of it may be our fault. When you say our church can’t seem to keep its nose out of non-believer’s secular business, I believe you are referring to gay marriage. The First Presidency of our church (prophet and his two counselors) constantly pass on the message to the church membership world-wide that we should vote for who or what we believe is honest and right. Although most members follow conservative values, there are some like Harry Reid who are liberal and are still members in good standing. The whole brainwashed notion or that we are forced to do anything is a ridiculous assertion by many anti-Mormons. There is no greater friend to freedom and the Constitution than the LDS members. The church’s policy is to stay out of political issues, however, it is our right and obligation to speak up on moral issues. Gay marriage is a moral issue. I have no ill feelings towards gay people. However, redefining marriage is a moral issue and will lead to the destruction of the family which will in turn lead to the destruction of our nation.

I believe homosexuality is a behavior and not a race of people. Alcoholism is also a behavior. Think of how odd it would be to provide different rights to alcoholics. We live in an age of entitlement. We live in an era where there is no standard for morality. What is considered as right and wrong are constantly evolving and changing. Think about it…. who gets to decide what is moral or immoral? Who is the final authority? The government? haha. The truth is that God is the final authority. Without God, there is no standard to measure morality.

http://www.decrepitoldfool.com georgewiman

Oh my, so much to respond to. I’ll just pick a couple things.

There is no greater friend to freedom and the Constitution than the LDS members. The church’s policy is to stay out of political issues, however, it is our right and obligation to speak up on moral issues.

Your church spent millions of dollars to stop gay marriage. If that is “staying out of political issues” I am at a loss to guess what intervening might be.

Gay marriage is a moral issue. I have no ill feelings towards gay people. However, redefining marriage is a moral issue and will lead to the destruction of the family which will in turn lead to the destruction of our nation.

You don’t have any ill feelings toward gay people, but they will destroy our nation. How queer.

Think about it…. who gets to decide what is moral or immoral? Who is the final authority? The government? haha. The truth is that God is the final authority. Without God, there is no standard to measure morality.

Whose god? Yours? Ours is a diverse country; people have different beliefs. What if it was someone else’s god, would you be OK with that? I bet you wouldn’t.

The government’s job isn’t to legislate morality, but to make a transactional framework for society. Government is the corporation of the people for the management and protection of the commons. Not to decide which god should be in charge.

crunch

Your church spent millions of dollars to stop gay marriage. If that is “staying out of political issues” I am at a loss to guess what intervening might be.

The “church” didn’t spend any money. It was all from the individual members. The leadership of the church encouraged members to devote their time and money to oppose gay marriage — something we believe is morally wrong. Isn’t this our constitutional right? Or has this changed in our day. We petitioned peacefully and according to the law (not the same that was done to us in return.) I suppose someone will accuse the church leaders of forcing their members to do this or brainwashing them. Guess what… LDS members can do whatever they want. If they want to leave the church, they can easily do so. We are not some small Jim Jones crazy cult of a few hundred people. We are a growing world-wide organization of 14 million members. We are the 4th largest church in America and the 5th largest in North America. I think the fear people outside the church have is how organized & successful the LDS church is. They can’t understand how that many people can be so devoted to something — they MUST be brainwashed! People just can’t fathom that someone would believe in a living prophet in our day in age. Maybe in Noah, Abraham or Moses’ time, but never today. God happens to follow a pattern.

You don’t have any ill feelings toward gay people, but they will destroy our nation. How queer.

Please don’t change my words. I never said gays will destroy our nation. I said redefining marriage will destroy the family unit and destroying the family will destroy our nation. It is already happening before our eyes. Look at every great civilization that has ever lived on this earth. Our constitution has lasted longer than any other in the history of the world. At this point it is being ripped to sheds and I can assure you this nation will be crumbling to the dust with it.

Whose god? Yours? Ours is a diverse country; people have different beliefs. What if it was someone else’s god, would you be OK with that? I bet you wouldn’t.

God exists independent from all of us. He is real. He has real attributes and characteristics. This doesn’t change based on someone’s belief. If everyone would just do what they know is right, they will eventually discover this true God. I will always encourage everyone to do what they know and believe is just and true. I don’t consider my God to be different than everyone elses. We are all brothers and sisters. One may have a different perspective of who God is, but this doesn’t change God. I’m not sure if you believe in God. My point was that if there was no God, then there is no such thing as right and wrong. My goal would then be to get everything I can for myself in this life before I die and cease to exist. I wouldn’t care about anyone. No accountability. But fortunately this is not true.

The government’s job isn’t to legislate morality, but to make a transactional framework for society. Government is the corporation of the people for the management and protection of the commons. Not to decide which god should be in charge.

I agree 100%. That is what this great country was built upon.

This is one of the fundamental principles of our religion. One of our Articles of Faith states: “11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”

http://motherwell.livejournal.com/ Raging Bee

I understand there are many things non-Mormons don’t understand about our religion. The same was true for the early Christians during the days of Christ…

Um, no, Jesus was a hell of a lot more coherent, compassionate, honest, and intelligent than either you or the Book Of Mormon.

http://www.decrepitoldfool.com georgewiman

Crunch: The Mormon church did spend money toward Prop 8 (look it up), but that isn’t the point. Yes, individual Mormons have the legal right to spend money against gay marriage. But this is a distinction without a difference. The fact that they did so to the tune of, by some estimates, $20m just means that Mormons can’t seem to resist sticking their noses into other people’s secular business. Which is what I said.

And why? Because you think you know what god is and says and wants. You think you know what his real characteristics are. How you supposedly know this is… Oh right, some people said they talked to him and you should believe them. As with other religions. It’s fine if you want to believe that stuff, but is isn’t the basis of secular law.

You say you have a “different perspective on who god is” and are all brothers and sisters, all you believers. Many believers think god is fine with gay marriage. What about them? What about people who believe in stoning, or not using zippers, or killing the infidel with the sword, or not sending women to school. Some religions even believe people of different races are cursed. Yours, for instance, until the revelation changed in 1978. Adding more words and reasons and stuff DOESN’T MAKE IT OK.

Gay marriage will destroy the family, and then the society? Citation needed. Will you be forced to break up your marriage if gay people are married? I think not. But in any case it still boils down to gay people – without gay people there’s no society-destroying gay marriage. So your claimed good will towards gay people lacks substance.

Jojo Miner

Donny and Marie were so young then. Give ’em a break. I’m sure if you asked them today they might have a very different reply. It is kinda hard to explain the church’s stand in regards to the blacks having the priesthood. My guess is that they themselves would probably cringe hearing what they said!

Michael Heath

JoJo Miner states:

I’m sure if you asked them today they might have a very different reply. It is kinda hard to explain the church’s stand in regards to the blacks having the priesthood. My guess is that they themselves would probably cringe hearing what they said!

Donny Osmond remains a member of the Mormon church. The Mormon church continues institutionalized discrimination and bigotry against women. While the Mormons have reduced their overt bigotry towards black people, they’re still discriminated against as seen here when we look at what the church leaders look like: https://www.lds.org/church/leaders?lang=eng

The Mormons have amped up their bigotry towards gay people. They were a strong force in the Prop 8 vote in California. Donny Osmond supports their bigotry. Here’s what he said in 2008, where he advocates that gay people not have equal privileges and protection like those Mormons who happen to be heterosexual:

“I do support our church leaders who say that we can accept those with gay tendencies in our church, as long as they do not act upon their temptations.”