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Until Wiedman beats him, with no freak injuries, I will always have doubt about if he would have won that second fight. Yes he hurt Silva in the First round, and could barely do anything with it. In rounds 4 and 5 who knows where Weidman's stamina would have been at? It's not like Silva hasn't pulled a win out of his ass before. The 3rd fight would shut me up forever, not that it matters much, because there is NO WAY Weidman holds the belt that long. I just don't see that happening. Even Silva would have a hard time with this new crop of killers coming for the belt. I think by the time Silva is healthy, Wiedman would have to have beaten Vitor, Jacare, and somebody else. If he's the champ by then, I'll never question him again.

"I don't call the fighting in my films 'violent', I call it 'action'. An action film borders between fantasy and reality. If I were to be completely realistic in my films, you would call me a violent, bloody man. I would simply destroy my opponent by tearing his guts out. I wouldn't do it so artistically." ~Bruce Lee

Until Wiedman beats him, with no freak injuries, I will always have doubt about if he would have won that second fight. Yes he hurt Silva in the First round, and could barely do anything with it. In rounds 4 and 5 who knows where Weidman's stamina would have been at? It's not like Silva hasn't pulled a win out of his ass before. The 3rd fight would shut me up forever, not that it matters much, because there is NO WAY Weidman holds the belt that long. I just don't see that happening. Even Silva would have a hard time with this new crop of killers coming for the belt. I think by the time Silva is healthy, Wiedman would have to have beaten Vitor, Jacare, and somebody else. If he's the champ by then, I'll never question him again.

getting knocked the fuck out is a freak injury? also your logic of Silva pulling wins out of his ass is flawed because this is the only time in his career where he was getting destroyed standing up, knocked down from the clinch in round 1...the fight you're referring to is obviously sonnen where none of that happened.

There was never a point in either fight where Silva wasn't getting his ass beat. Weidman is simply the superior fighter.

I dunno. Maybe I'm a romantic or something. I just want people to get better, even if it's just a little bit, every day.

A lot of us do.. won't happen but we can hope at least.

It killed me when Penn came back to face Edgar. And did exactly the same thing he did in the first fight, believing his own hype, staying static as the world caught up and passed him.

More then a few have gone down that path... even Fedor did by becoming to reliant on the right hand and saying things like he didn't need BJJ because Sambo was better.

My statement was more about when PRIDE FC had folded...but for the sake of argument...how many of the people you've stated were in the UFC again? None of them. The UFC didn't have a good roster in 2009. lesnar was champ with exactly one win over a hard-ranked opponent--and Randy was coming off 15+ months of ring rust. Randy had just lost, and honestly was mediocre at HW when you looked beyond the hype he was riding. Mir was coming off an ass beating by lesnar, and had amassed exactly one win over a ranked opponent in the last 5 years [hard ranking, soft ranking, whatever. His only ranked win was Nog.] Cain had yet to face a top 15 fighter, never mind beat one.

I'm not saying the UFC had a significantly better roster or even a better roster just that the differences between the two organizations at the time as far as Heavyweights were negligible.

SF had an open policy on co-promotion, leaving potential for all of the fights with all the guys you'd mentioned, and Coker immediately talked about building the division with Fedor's signing.

The co-promotion thing didn't help in the long run at least in terms of Fedor's fight career.. they struggled to get a match in place for him after the Rogers match and ended up haggling over money when there was already a contract in place. The one big match that should have happened against Overeem never took place which ultimately is Strikeforce's fault

But regardless of the reason's behind it, it wasn't a bad move or a weak one by Fedor, particularly in light of the vitriol dana couldn't seem to contain every time he opened his mouth. In reality, the only one who had any chance against Fedor was lesnar, and judging from lesnars allergy to getting hit, I'd say Fedor wins 19 out of 20 bouts against him.

Personally I see it as being a bad move... there was as much for Fedor to do career wise in the UFC as a heavyweight. A fight against Lesnar at the time would have been huge for the sport itself as well as both fighters. Considering as you say it was a winnable fight (though 19 of 20 is pretty debatable) Fedor had way more to gain from a win against Lesnar then anything he would have done in Strikeforce. A fight with Couture would have also been been big and it was a fight Fedor wanted prior to signing with Strikeforce.

Rise, I think Fedor got better after the Bigfoot loss. I'm a mark for Henderson, but I still think it was a flash KO and an early stoppage...but after that fight, he went back to his roots, brought much, much more to the game than the overhand right.

On the refusal to sign with the UFC, you have to keep it in context at the time: No, SF didn't have better HW's than zuffa. But it had HW's as good as anyone in zuffa, and the potential for a whole lot more.

zuffa had dana shitting all over him to every media hack with a mic or a pen, holding the most restrictive contract in the industry in one hand, giving him the finger with the other. The fights zuffa could offer were lesnar and Mir, neither of which were solid-ranked top 5 fighters and a win could easily be dismissed by dana's glib commentary.

SF didn't have a huge roster, but they were willing to co-promote, fulfilling a variety of services: they'd satisfy the Fink's greed to get M1 stateside marketing, and they could bring in a host of other fighters. At the time he signed, nobody could have predicted AO would duck him to kick over dented cans in Japan, that was going to be a big fight--even if it didn't have any better ranking than a Mir or lesnar, it was a big money fight that Fedor would have won pretty easily [which is why AO pled "oooowie, my hand hurts" and then scurried off to fight James Thompson, et al.] Even if they weren't signed to an exclusive contract, SF had already approached the HW's not on zuffa's rosters and the potential for those fights were probable, rather than just possible, and had already signed Werdum, a top 5 [if not 3] HW months earlier.

Fedor and M1 had guaranteed fights with ranked HW's that were just as good as those [at the time] in zuffa, more mone, less restrictions and Coker wasn't slandering him and spreading bullshit.

In hindsight, it would have been great to see Fedor come in and fuck up lesnar, even if he'd likely lose to Cain within 2 years. But at the time, with everything accounted for, it could easily be seen as the best of a bad situation.

Think of it this way...if Coker didn't absolutely suck at making his fighters actually fight, that HW GP could easily have been the best 12 months in the HW history of MMA--and believe me, all of that was discussed at the time of the contract. When Fedor signed, Coker hadn't tipped his hand as a terminally ineffective boss who couldn't get his champions to defend yet. All that sadness came later.

rh

All manner of men came to work for the News: everything from wild young Turks who wanted to rip the world in half and start all over again -- to tired, beer-bellied old hacks who wanted nothing more than to live out their days in peace before a bunch of lunatics ripped the world in half.

Rise, I think Fedor got better after the Bigfoot loss. I'm a mark for Henderson, but I still think it was a flash KO and an early stoppage...but after that fight, he went back to his roots, brought much, much more to the game than the overhand right.

Never really saw it myself... once Strikeforce folded he moved on to less then stellar competition unfortunately. Would have liked to see him step up to a top 10 guy again after a couple of those wins.

[quote]On the refusal to sign with the UFC, you have to keep it in context at the time: No, SF didn't have better HW's than zuffa. But it had HW's as good as anyone in zuffa, and the potential for a whole lot more.[quote]

Agreed neither roster stood out from the other as being particularly better which was kind of my original point. And both organizations had potential to get better at that point.

zuffa had dana shitting all over him to every media hack with a mic or a pen, holding the most restrictive contract in the industry in one hand, giving him the finger with the other. The fights zuffa could offer were lesnar and Mir, neither of which were solid-ranked top 5 fighters and a win could easily be dismissed by dana's glib commentary.

Absolutely Dana was as much to blame for things playing out the way they did as anyone else.. Though I absolutely agree with him not caving to a co-promotion deal.

There was a risk of Dana's glib commentary no matter where Fedor went.. personally beating up one of Dana's top PPV draws and taking the lustre off him would be an intriguing fight for me if the situation was reversed.

Again there was also a Couture fight that Fedor wanted to happen and that fight was an easy sell. JDS was establishing himself at that point and had already beaten Werdum.

SF didn't have a huge roster, but they were willing to co-promote, fulfilling a variety of services: they'd satisfy the Fink's greed to get M1 stateside marketing, and they could bring in a host of other fighters. At the time he signed, nobody could have predicted AO would duck him to kick over dented cans in Japan, that was going to be a big fight--even if it didn't have any better ranking than a Mir or lesnar, it was a big money fight that Fedor would have won pretty easily [which is why AO pled "oooowie, my hand hurts" and then scurried off to fight James Thompson, et al.] Even if they weren't signed to an exclusive contract, SF had already approached the HW's not on zuffa's rosters and the potential for those fights were probable, rather than just possible, and had already signed Werdum, a top 5 [if not 3] HW months earlier.

There were warning signs there though.

The fact that Coker caved into demands pretty easily to get Fedor and then re-negotiate after the first fight was a pretty good sign that fighters ran things. Overeem had not defended the title for years and him ducking and running had as much to do with Fedor's camp demanding more stringent testing (rightly so) as actual fear of the fight. The open contracts that Fedor wanted so much was exactly why fights like this couldn't happen

Fedor and M1 had guaranteed fights with ranked HW's that were just as good as those [at the time] in zuffa, more mone, less restrictions and Coker wasn't slandering him and spreading bullshit.

I'm not knocking his choice to go to Strikeforce anymore then the UFC at the time... just the notion that anything outside of co-promotion had any real effect on the final choice.

I think Fedor personally would have made way more through the UFC. A fight against Brock in a large stadium with a stacked card on PPV would have easily paid him more then Strikeforce could have offered.

Think of it this way...if Coker didn't absolutely suck at making his fighters actually fight, that HW GP could easily have been the best 12 months in the HW history of MMA--and believe me, all of that was discussed at the time of the contract. When Fedor signed, Coker hadn't tipped his hand as a terminally ineffective boss who couldn't get his champions to defend yet. All that sadness came later.

There were signs at the time if you looked for them though that Strikeforce wasn't being run very effectively. M1 only cared about one thing and that was using Fedor to get some promotion to tie their name to it and pull in revenue and free promotion that they did little or nothing to earn.

It wasn't really a surprise to me this tournament didn't go off as planned or that Overeem never defended his title and more then a couple people here predicted as much.

without the bother of cutting and pasting through your post, AO ducked Fedor before M1 made any goofy demands. All that clause-nonsense came after Fedor beat Rogers--whom he wouldn't have to have fought at all if AO didn't pretend he was too injured to defend. AO had punched some hapless bathroom attendant who wouldn't put up with Valentjin's shit and gotten an infection in his hand. He claimed he couldn't fight on Fedor's schedule, so as soon as Fedor signed to face Rogers, AO rattled off three wins in something like six weeks in Japan [where they weren't testing for juice].

The additional layers of testing that M1 demanded came after that bullshit, although AO's camp tried to muddy the water with a lot of propaganda that was pretty effective with the ignorant punters. I can't be bothered to go find all the historical links, but I've posted them before. Don't get caught up in the hype or revisionist history.

Make no mistake--Fedor signed with the intention of fighting AO and taking his weak-assed belt. AO ducked him, and then fought in Japan multiple times. Then when M1 tried to make him face testing, AO's camp tried to make it look like Fedor was ducking. It was a masterpiece of bullshit.

SF wasn't poorly run when Fedor signed. It was surging. It had signed Werdum, had picked up guys from Affliction, it had nabbed Dan Henderson when zuffa negotiations failed. In hindsight, it looks like it was shaky from the get go, but if you were paying attention, it made the biggest growth at that point, and was a legitimate competitor to the UFC.

It had a different business model. The co-promotion wasn't yet the albatross it grew into, because it had potential to open big business markets: M1 could potentially give it the Russian market--remember, Fedor/Arlosvski was viewed in 25,000,000+ households just months before--and co-promotion with DREAM was something that was strongly being pursued. If any of that had panned out, the implications would have been enormous.

Hindsight is 20/20...unless it's skewed.

When Fedor signed, it was arguably the exactly right thing for him to do. It didn't start to look stupid until AO finally had a title defense...against the guy Fedor had just knocked the fuck out...a bout that wasn't signed until Fedor had already agreed to face Werdum. From there, shit snowballed pretty quickly.

But at the time he signed, it was a healthy, viable org with potential to utterly eclipse the UFC in terms of the HW division. Sure, zuffa would crush it everywhere else, but at HW, it was ponderous.

rh

All manner of men came to work for the News: everything from wild young Turks who wanted to rip the world in half and start all over again -- to tired, beer-bellied old hacks who wanted nothing more than to live out their days in peace before a bunch of lunatics ripped the world in half.

Make no mistake--Fedor signed with the intention of fighting AO and taking his weak-assed belt. AO ducked him, and then fought in Japan multiple times. Then when M1 tried to make him face testing, AO's camp tried to make it look like Fedor was ducking. It was a masterpiece of bullshit.

I do not doubt that Fedor had intentions of fighting Overeem.. my point in this case was that it should have come as no surprise to him or his management that Strikeforce was incapable of making this match happen. The fact that he hadn't fought for Strikeforce in years, the suspicions on their part of drug use, and an open contract like the one he had were a pretty good indicator that fight may not have happened.

SF wasn't poorly run when Fedor signed. It was surging. It had signed Werdum, had picked up guys from Affliction, it had nabbed Dan Henderson when zuffa negotiations failed. In hindsight, it looks like it was shaky from the get go, but if you were paying attention, it made the biggest growth at that point, and was a legitimate competitor to the UFC.

Have to disagree here.. yes they had picked up a couple guys including Fedor.. but overall they had a very limited talent pool even with the talent they pulled in from Japan their champs sat out for extended periods and legit challengers were few and far between.

Growth is one thing but was it positive growth... in hindsight we can say no. They were overpaying for who they had brought in and it cost them in the long run. And keep in mind at the same time they were pulling Henderson in they were losing Shields the defending champ of one of their divisions go.

It had a different business model. The co-promotion wasn't yet the albatross it grew into, because it had potential to open big business markets: M1 could potentially give it the Russian market--remember, Fedor/Arlosvski was viewed in 25,000,000+ households just months before--and co-promotion with DREAM was something that was strongly being pursued. If any of that had panned out, the implications would have been enormous.

When in the long run has co-promotion with M1 actually worked for anyone though... who's left that actually partnered with them on a regular basis ? It's not like Strikeforce was the first. Yes this is somewhat hindsight but it's not like warning signs weren't there before the Strikeforce deal.

Besides it's not like Strikeforce had the ability at the time to tap into the international market. Besides that it's a big expense and time sink to do so. They were struggling to stay relevant in the market they were based out of as is. Co-promotion to go global is not the way to go when you don't have a solid national base first. Being able to put on solid regular cards for CBS/Showtime then with the talent co-promotion and building up the roster they could have moved to PPV and started to look at more international growth.

When Fedor signed, it was arguably the exactly right thing for him to do. It didn't start to look stupid until AO finally had a title defense...against the guy Fedor had just knocked the fuck out...a bout that wasn't signed until Fedor had already agreed to face Werdum. From there, shit snowballed pretty quickly.

At the time it was the better choice because of the co-promotion deal and not having to deal with Dana for sure. Only have said the options for him as a fighter were just as good in the UFC.

Even though I am convinced that Chris would have found a way to win no matter the leg break in the second fight, as well as convinced he would find a way to win again in a third fight had the leg break not happened, I still believe the first fight was a loss die to Silva dicking around. Be for knocked out while showboating; he should never do that no matter how good. I wish DM has knocked him on his ass for Silva's worst showing of showboating ever.