On his day deadly fast, but this is only on some occasions, he lacks the consistency of a champion.

Pretty good summary

Disagree on the Vettel bit, but agree on the Webber.

I see Vettel as one of the top 3 Driver's with Hamilton & Alonso, but for me not a great yet, as he's clearly had the best car for three seasons. Hard to know which one is the best out of those 3 in terms of Vettel as he's not been a team mate of either, but maybe he's better.

I don't see how a triple world champion can't be considered an all-time great. However the quality of the cars he's had to drive cannot be overlooked; this year was the least dominant of his title-winning cars but RBR still won the constructors' championship comfortably. The difference between Vettel and the other all-time greats is that I'd still say he hasn't really proved himself in a weaker car. Half an impressive season for Toro Rosso doesn't really do it for me and in the early part of this season he hardly looked a world beater while Red Bull were still ironing out their issues with the car.

He still has some work to do before he can be called the best of his generation.

Stewart is absolutely right. Vettel since 2009 had dominant cars in, I would say, 80-90 % of races. There are many reports cars were 15-20 kph quicker than the rest in corners, that's unimaginable advantage. It's baffling how he lost in 2009 having very good car in the first half of the season and truly dominant one in the second. True great driver would have had 4 titles in a bag in these rocketships, not 3, 2 of which were clinched only in the last race.

Great drivers always shined in Monaco and what's Vettel record there? He only won race and pole position once, in 2011 when he had the most dominant car since 2004 Ferrari. In other years he stuffed it into wall in 2009, was beaten by journeyman Webber in 2010 and again 2012, when he was measly 4th with his teammate enjoying victory. Oh, I forgot about 2008, when he scored 5th in Toro Rosso - the same race when 'great' Adrian Sutil in 'great' Force India car was running 4th until torpedoed by Raikkonen. Clearly his results in Monaco are average and that circuit is true indicator of who's great and who's not.

Also true great drivers are setting world on fire since day 1. Hamilton matched raining world champion in his first ever race weekend. Alonso stunned the world by dragging Minardi in front of much quicker Prost and Jaguar in his first ever qualifying session. Senna decimated his teammate by 2 seconds! Prost trashed John Watson by a second. And what Vettel did? He was 0.5 second per lap slower in qualifying and the race than Nick Heidfeld OK, let's give him another chance - his first 7 races in Toro Rosso at the end of 2007. He lost 3-4 in qualis to 'great' Vitantonio Liuzzi and the biggest margin he could beat Liuzzi in dry conditions was 3 tenths at Monza. Again, he couldn't match what true great drivers did.

Vettel is all smoke and mirrors, simply enjoying the fruits of rocketships delivered by Red Bull and brilliant engineers. Imagine putting Senna or Prost against Mark Webber in the same team and giving them number 1 status. Do you think they would lose 1/3 of races to journeyman Webber? Because that's what happened with Vettel in 2009, 2010 and 2012. Team up Webber with Alonso or Hamilton as undisputed team leaders - Webber would be tarnished to the ground, yet against Vettel he looks competetive.

Vettel's true talent will be exposed when he will be paired with top driver in the second car, ideally in a team, which doesn't invest billions of dollars to win and which strangely is never punished eventhough they are breaking rules in every second race.

Stewart is absolutely right. Vettel since 2009 had dominant cars in, I would say, 80-90 % of races. There are many reports cars were 15-20 kph quicker than the rest in corners, that's unimaginable advantage. It's baffling how he lost in 2009 having very good car in the first half of the season and truly dominant one in the second. True great driver would have had 4 titles in a bag in these rocketships, not 3, 2 of which were clinched only in the last race.

Great drivers always shined in Monaco and what's Vettel record there? He only won race and pole position once, in 2011 when he had the most dominant car since 2004 Ferrari. In other years he stuffed it into wall in 2009, was beaten by journeyman Webber in 2010 and again 2012, when he was measly 4th with his teammate enjoying victory. Oh, I forgot about 2008, when he scored 5th in Toro Rosso - the same race when 'great' Adrian Sutil in 'great' Force India car was running 4th until torpedoed by Raikkonen. Clearly his results in Monaco are average and that circuit is true indicator of who's great and who's not.

Also true great drivers are setting world on fire since day 1. Hamilton matched raining world champion in his first ever race weekend. Alonso stunned the world by dragging Minardi in front of much quicker Prost and Jaguar in his first ever qualifying session. Senna decimated his teammate by 2 seconds! Prost trashed John Watson by a second. And what Vettel did? He was 0.5 second per lap slower in qualifying and the race than Nick Heidfeld OK, let's give him another chance - his first 7 races in Toro Rosso at the end of 2007. He lost 3-4 in qualis to 'great' Vitantonio Liuzzi and the biggest margin he could beat Liuzzi in dry conditions was 3 tenths at Monza. Again, he couldn't match what true great drivers did.

Vettel is all smoke and mirrors, simply enjoying the fruits of rocketships delivered by Red Bull and brilliant engineers. Imagine putting Senna or Prost against Mark Webber in the same team and giving them number 1 status. Do you think they would lose 1/3 of races to journeyman Webber? Because that's what happened with Vettel in 2009, 2010 and 2012. Team up Webber with Alonso or Hamilton as undisputed team leaders - Webber would be tarnished to the ground, yet against Vettel he looks competetive.

Vettel's true talent will be exposed when he will be paired with top driver in the second car, ideally in a team, which doesn't invest billions of dollars to win and which strangely is never punished eventhough they are breaking rules in every second race.

It's a good job you are an expert in armchairs because that interpretation of Formula 1 has little correlation with reality.

It's always the same 3-4 members going on and on with the anti-Vettel rants, you would think they would get tired of it already.

I think it's hilarious and currently the best part of the forum. Watching zealots get wound up by things like flag-gate/red bull dirty tricks/no. 2 driver webber is highly entertaining, and long may it continue.

Stewart is absolutely right. Vettel since 2009 had dominant cars in, I would say, 80-90 % of races. There are many reports cars were 15-20 kph quicker than the rest in corners, that's unimaginable advantage. It's baffling how he lost in 2009 having very good car in the first half of the season and truly dominant one in the second. True great driver would have had 4 titles in a bag in these rocketships, not 3, 2 of which were clinched only in the last race.

Great drivers always shined in Monaco and what's Vettel record there? He only won race and pole position once, in 2011 when he had the most dominant car since 2004 Ferrari. In other years he stuffed it into wall in 2009, was beaten by journeyman Webber in 2010 and again 2012, when he was measly 4th with his teammate enjoying victory. Oh, I forgot about 2008, when he scored 5th in Toro Rosso - the same race when 'great' Adrian Sutil in 'great' Force India car was running 4th until torpedoed by Raikkonen. Clearly his results in Monaco are average and that circuit is true indicator of who's great and who's not.

Also true great drivers are setting world on fire since day 1. Hamilton matched raining world champion in his first ever race weekend. Alonso stunned the world by dragging Minardi in front of much quicker Prost and Jaguar in his first ever qualifying session. Senna decimated his teammate by 2 seconds! Prost trashed John Watson by a second. And what Vettel did? He was 0.5 second per lap slower in qualifying and the race than Nick Heidfeld OK, let's give him another chance - his first 7 races in Toro Rosso at the end of 2007. He lost 3-4 in qualis to 'great' Vitantonio Liuzzi and the biggest margin he could beat Liuzzi in dry conditions was 3 tenths at Monza. Again, he couldn't match what true great drivers did.

Vettel is all smoke and mirrors, simply enjoying the fruits of rocketships delivered by Red Bull and brilliant engineers. Imagine putting Senna or Prost against Mark Webber in the same team and giving them number 1 status. Do you think they would lose 1/3 of races to journeyman Webber? Because that's what happened with Vettel in 2009, 2010 and 2012. Team up Webber with Alonso or Hamilton as undisputed team leaders - Webber would be tarnished to the ground, yet against Vettel he looks competetive.

Vettel's true talent will be exposed when he will be paired with top driver in the second car, ideally in a team, which doesn't invest billions of dollars to win and which strangely is never punished eventhough they are breaking rules in every second race.

What a horrible, hate-filled rant that was. All of your comments are about the past. There is no doubt that Red Bull have a top car at the moment, but how many more times does it have to be said you win a WDC it takes more than just the car - I love Webber and I wish he did better. He's clearly a good driver, but Vettel has been just that bit better, and that is why he's a triple world champion.

You can say it's all Newey and daddy Marko all you want, but they're not the one's in the car. Unless you believe what Ashley said about the pen

Last edited by Sevenfest on Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Stewart is absolutely right. Vettel since 2009 had dominant cars in, I would say, 80-90 % of races. There are many reports cars were 15-20 kph quicker than the rest in corners, that's unimaginable advantage. It's baffling how he lost in 2009 having very good car in the first half of the season and truly dominant one in the second. True great driver would have had 4 titles in a bag in these rocketships, not 3, 2 of which were clinched only in the last race.

Great drivers always shined in Monaco and what's Vettel record there? He only won race and pole position once, in 2011 when he had the most dominant car since 2004 Ferrari. In other years he stuffed it into wall in 2009, was beaten by journeyman Webber in 2010 and again 2012, when he was measly 4th with his teammate enjoying victory. Oh, I forgot about 2008, when he scored 5th in Toro Rosso - the same race when 'great' Adrian Sutil in 'great' Force India car was running 4th until torpedoed by Raikkonen. Clearly his results in Monaco are average and that circuit is true indicator of who's great and who's not.

Also true great drivers are setting world on fire since day 1. Hamilton matched raining world champion in his first ever race weekend. Alonso stunned the world by dragging Minardi in front of much quicker Prost and Jaguar in his first ever qualifying session. Senna decimated his teammate by 2 seconds! Prost trashed John Watson by a second. And what Vettel did? He was 0.5 second per lap slower in qualifying and the race than Nick Heidfeld OK, let's give him another chance - his first 7 races in Toro Rosso at the end of 2007. He lost 3-4 in qualis to 'great' Vitantonio Liuzzi and the biggest margin he could beat Liuzzi in dry conditions was 3 tenths at Monza. Again, he couldn't match what true great drivers did.

Vettel is all smoke and mirrors, simply enjoying the fruits of rocketships delivered by Red Bull and brilliant engineers. Imagine putting Senna or Prost against Mark Webber in the same team and giving them number 1 status. Do you think they would lose 1/3 of races to journeyman Webber? Because that's what happened with Vettel in 2009, 2010 and 2012. Team up Webber with Alonso or Hamilton as undisputed team leaders - Webber would be tarnished to the ground, yet against Vettel he looks competetive.

Vettel's true talent will be exposed when he will be paired with top driver in the second car, ideally in a team, which doesn't invest billions of dollars to win and which strangely is never punished eventhough they are breaking rules in every second race.

What a horrible, hate-filled rant that was. All of your comments are about the past. There is no doubt that Red Bull have a top car at the moment, but how many more times does it have to be said you win a WDC it takes more than just the car - I love Webber and I wish he did better. He's clearly a good driver, but Vettel has been just that bit better, and that is why he's a triple world champion.

You can say it's all Newey and daddy Marko all you want, but they're not the one's in the car. Unless you believe what Ashley said about the pen

Trust me on the pen. I'm a big time groupie. We know these things. Who else here knows that there was no Jäger at the post race party in Brazil so someone was dispatched to fetch 8 bottles when the new champion ordered it? huh? huh? yeah that's right. #uselessknowledge

Stewart is absolutely right. Vettel since 2009 had dominant cars in, I would say, 80-90 % of races. There are many reports cars were 15-20 kph quicker than the rest in corners, that's unimaginable advantage. It's baffling how he lost in 2009 having very good car in the first half of the season and truly dominant one in the second. True great driver would have had 4 titles in a bag in these rocketships, not 3, 2 of which were clinched only in the last race.

Great drivers always shined in Monaco and what's Vettel record there? He only won race and pole position once, in 2011 when he had the most dominant car since 2004 Ferrari. In other years he stuffed it into wall in 2009, was beaten by journeyman Webber in 2010 and again 2012, when he was measly 4th with his teammate enjoying victory. Oh, I forgot about 2008, when he scored 5th in Toro Rosso - the same race when 'great' Adrian Sutil in 'great' Force India car was running 4th until torpedoed by Raikkonen. Clearly his results in Monaco are average and that circuit is true indicator of who's great and who's not.

Also true great drivers are setting world on fire since day 1. Hamilton matched raining world champion in his first ever race weekend. Alonso stunned the world by dragging Minardi in front of much quicker Prost and Jaguar in his first ever qualifying session. Senna decimated his teammate by 2 seconds! Prost trashed John Watson by a second. And what Vettel did? He was 0.5 second per lap slower in qualifying and the race than Nick Heidfeld OK, let's give him another chance - his first 7 races in Toro Rosso at the end of 2007. He lost 3-4 in qualis to 'great' Vitantonio Liuzzi and the biggest margin he could beat Liuzzi in dry conditions was 3 tenths at Monza. Again, he couldn't match what true great drivers did.

Vettel is all smoke and mirrors, simply enjoying the fruits of rocketships delivered by Red Bull and brilliant engineers. Imagine putting Senna or Prost against Mark Webber in the same team and giving them number 1 status. Do you think they would lose 1/3 of races to journeyman Webber? Because that's what happened with Vettel in 2009, 2010 and 2012. Team up Webber with Alonso or Hamilton as undisputed team leaders - Webber would be tarnished to the ground, yet against Vettel he looks competetive.

Vettel's true talent will be exposed when he will be paired with top driver in the second car, ideally in a team, which doesn't invest billions of dollars to win and which strangely is never punished eventhough they are breaking rules in every second race.

What a horrible, hate-filled rant that was. All of your comments are about the past. There is no doubt that Red Bull have a top car at the moment, but how many more times does it have to be said you win a WDC it takes more than just the car - I love Webber and I wish he did better. He's clearly a good driver, but Vettel has been just that bit better, and that is why he's a triple world champion.

You can say it's all Newey and daddy Marko all you want, but they're not the one's in the car. Unless you believe what Ashley said about the pen

Trust me on the pen. I'm a big time groupie. We know these things. Who else here knows that there was no Jäger at the post race party in Brazil so someone was dispatched to fetch 8 bottles when the new champion ordered it? huh? huh? yeah that's right. #uselessknowledge

It's always the same 3-4 members going on and on with the anti-Vettel rants, you would think they would get tired of it already.

I think it's hilarious and currently the best part of the forum. Watching zealots get wound up by things like flag-gate/red bull dirty tricks/no. 2 driver webber is highly entertaining, and long may it continue.

Add in a dash of tinfoil and a good helping of "what if" and it's quite a show!

_________________o·ver·rat·ed - overestimation of skills or abilities, anything that is given too much credit and hype.

Kimi had Finlandia and Red Bull. In the morning you add a little OJ to that and you have what is known in my circle as a Kimimosa.

I find it hard to read that and not imagine that video of him stacking it on a boat

That's exactly why we drink Kimimosas. In hopes it will result in someone falling off something. If you want to recreate the time he passed out on an inflatable dolphin, you drink "WDC Margaritas", which are reposado, Red Bull, and lime juice.

Right. No one now that Shumi is gone has enjoyed so ''dominant'' cars as Vettel for so many years of his F1 career than anyone else of the current grid.Yes it take more than a dominant car I know. And as for the argument why Webber isn't a WDC, well Vettel has always been #1 in RB, never had his front wing given away and never nearly had so much trouble as Webber has had on his car. He doesn't have to play testbunny for tire strategy either. I have said several times that Vettel is a great driver,you wouldn't become a 3 time WDC if you aren't but I would not go so far to call him a great. Not until he has proven me wrong in a car that isn't dominant, and preferably against abetter team-mate than Webber. And ''a great'' isn't so sloppy as Vettel was in Abu Dhabi 2012. In Brazil though he showed he might have learnt his lesson.

Alonso is probably the only driver of the current grid I would go near to call a great, perhaps Kimi too. Hamilton 2011, far from it. Hamilton 2012, closer, but not yet there. Vettel, for me he has much to prove.As for my earlier comment, it might have been a s*itstir that I probably should have left out given the bad rep of us Lewis fans.

Stewart is absolutely right. Vettel since 2009 had dominant cars in, I would say, 80-90 % of races. There are many reports cars were 15-20 kph quicker than the rest in corners, that's unimaginable advantage. It's baffling how he lost in 2009 having very good car in the first half of the season and truly dominant one in the second. True great driver would have had 4 titles in a bag in these rocketships, not 3, 2 of which were clinched only in the last race.

Great drivers always shined in Monaco and what's Vettel record there? He only won race and pole position once, in 2011 when he had the most dominant car since 2004 Ferrari. In other years he stuffed it into wall in 2009, was beaten by journeyman Webber in 2010 and again 2012, when he was measly 4th with his teammate enjoying victory. Oh, I forgot about 2008, when he scored 5th in Toro Rosso - the same race when 'great' Adrian Sutil in 'great' Force India car was running 4th until torpedoed by Raikkonen. Clearly his results in Monaco are average and that circuit is true indicator of who's great and who's not.

Also true great drivers are setting world on fire since day 1. Hamilton matched raining world champion in his first ever race weekend. Alonso stunned the world by dragging Minardi in front of much quicker Prost and Jaguar in his first ever qualifying session. Senna decimated his teammate by 2 seconds! Prost trashed John Watson by a second. And what Vettel did? He was 0.5 second per lap slower in qualifying and the race than Nick Heidfeld OK, let's give him another chance - his first 7 races in Toro Rosso at the end of 2007. He lost 3-4 in qualis to 'great' Vitantonio Liuzzi and the biggest margin he could beat Liuzzi in dry conditions was 3 tenths at Monza. Again, he couldn't match what true great drivers did.

Vettel is all smoke and mirrors, simply enjoying the fruits of rocketships delivered by Red Bull and brilliant engineers. Imagine putting Senna or Prost against Mark Webber in the same team and giving them number 1 status. Do you think they would lose 1/3 of races to journeyman Webber? Because that's what happened with Vettel in 2009, 2010 and 2012. Team up Webber with Alonso or Hamilton as undisputed team leaders - Webber would be tarnished to the ground, yet against Vettel he looks competetive.

Vettel's true talent will be exposed when he will be paired with top driver in the second car, ideally in a team, which doesn't invest billions of dollars to win and which strangely is never punished eventhough they are breaking rules in every second race.

Weird stuff, what a twisted version of reality. The funniest thing is that you seem to believe in it so much that even the whole paddock can't make you think the other way round.

You will need a lot of handkerchiefs in the coming years for all those bittersweet tears.

Stewart is absolutely right. Vettel since 2009 had dominant cars in, I would say, 80-90 % of races. There are many reports cars were 15-20 kph quicker than the rest in corners, that's unimaginable advantage. It's baffling how he lost in 2009 having very good car in the first half of the season and truly dominant one in the second. True great driver would have had 4 titles in a bag in these rocketships, not 3, 2 of which were clinched only in the last race.

Great drivers always shined in Monaco and what's Vettel record there? He only won race and pole position once, in 2011 when he had the most dominant car since 2004 Ferrari. In other years he stuffed it into wall in 2009, was beaten by journeyman Webber in 2010 and again 2012, when he was measly 4th with his teammate enjoying victory. Oh, I forgot about 2008, when he scored 5th in Toro Rosso - the same race when 'great' Adrian Sutil in 'great' Force India car was running 4th until torpedoed by Raikkonen. Clearly his results in Monaco are average and that circuit is true indicator of who's great and who's not.

Also true great drivers are setting world on fire since day 1. Hamilton matched raining world champion in his first ever race weekend. Alonso stunned the world by dragging Minardi in front of much quicker Prost and Jaguar in his first ever qualifying session. Senna decimated his teammate by 2 seconds! Prost trashed John Watson by a second. And what Vettel did? He was 0.5 second per lap slower in qualifying and the race than Nick Heidfeld OK, let's give him another chance - his first 7 races in Toro Rosso at the end of 2007. He lost 3-4 in qualis to 'great' Vitantonio Liuzzi and the biggest margin he could beat Liuzzi in dry conditions was 3 tenths at Monza. Again, he couldn't match what true great drivers did.

Vettel is all smoke and mirrors, simply enjoying the fruits of rocketships delivered by Red Bull and brilliant engineers. Imagine putting Senna or Prost against Mark Webber in the same team and giving them number 1 status. Do you think they would lose 1/3 of races to journeyman Webber? Because that's what happened with Vettel in 2009, 2010 and 2012. Team up Webber with Alonso or Hamilton as undisputed team leaders - Webber would be tarnished to the ground, yet against Vettel he looks competetive.

Vettel's true talent will be exposed when he will be paired with top driver in the second car, ideally in a team, which doesn't invest billions of dollars to win and which strangely is never punished eventhough they are breaking rules in every second race.

Weird stuff, what a twisted version of reality. The funniest thing is that you seem to believe in it so much that even the whole paddock can't make you think the other way round.

You will need a lot of handkerchiefs in the coming years for all those bittersweet tears.

Let's see what Hamilton's 7th year brings first, more senna-esque dominance of the sport I imagine and utterly cleaning up the silverware, as per usual

_________________o·ver·rat·ed - overestimation of skills or abilities, anything that is given too much credit and hype.

Ok as far as iam concerned he is a spoilt brat! I believe he has a supreme driving talent which has yet to truly develop ATM it has been slingshotted into a position no one can catch due to the sublime car he has. You might say but webber I mean come on those redbulls arnt even close it's like a merc and mclaren in same team. Mark is a tremendous driver just look what he did with that junk jaguar in 2003. But as far as vettel he needs to accept a loss when it's a loss (especially when it's mark) and take it on the chin for this reason and reason only to me no matter if he goes on to break every record he won't be held in comparison to senna, who had this aura which no other driver even seb has.

Let's see what Hamilton's 7th year brings first, more senna-esque dominance of the sport I imagine and utterly cleaning up the silverware, as per usual

Senna-esque dominance? Hamilton? Sorry, but I have not been seeing that. I have seen a very good driver doing a very good job in 2012.... but if it is Hamilton you are referring to as dominate, we have been watching different seasons. It can't be MORE dominance if we have seen the first part yet.

Let's see what Hamilton's 7th year brings first, more senna-esque dominance of the sport I imagine and utterly cleaning up the silverware, as per usual

Senna-esque dominance? Hamilton? Sorry, but I have not been seeing that. I have seen a very good driver doing a very good job in 2012.... but if it is Hamilton you are referring to as dominate, we have been watching different seasons. It can't be MORE dominance if we have seen the first part yet.

Why do people sometimes act as if having the best car or one of the best cars is wrong??? He has skills thats why he was chosen by red bull. If it was as simple as anyone getting in a fast car and winning, RBR would hire cucumber or some driver which costs even less than him!!!! WDC is a mix of car and driver... He did it thrice in a row.... Greatness solidified!!!

_________________KIMI: Yeah,Winning feels good.But I am not the type of guy to jump up and down and rub it in everyone's face.

Yes - he is a great. If he hung up the helmet today to become a race commentator, he would have rightly earned his place among the best in the sport. He fought hard for each and every one of his championships.

It is always the car + the driver, so the 'best car' nonsense is a non-starter.

i voted no.But only because vettel is too young yet to be called a great. he won in a year when there were 6 champions on the grid.He won when alonso was at his supreme best. And if alonso had a few failures that cost him points - vettel had his fair share too.In the end, if the car is all that matters - then RB would save themselves a lot of money, put Charles Pic or Narain or even Sato in the car and win the championship and make them huge marketable stars right...Every team would be salivating to get vettel into their roster because he is that damn good. Sure, he doesnt posses a lot of the racecraft that a alonso has.. but he wins in other departments like outright speed to put himself on pole or as near the front as possible.

i am no vettel fan boy - i cheered for alonso all year, but in the end, vettel came out triumphant and beat a man who was at the top of his game. that earned my respect for sure

A great? Not just yet, although the stats say otherwise. Adversity creates greats and champions. Unfortunately, Vettel's championships have been too cruisey for the past 3 years, and dominance displayed by both Red Bull cars have proven that machinery has played a very significant factor in his victories.

I'd still rank him well under Raikkonnen, Alonso and Hamilton in terms of racecraft.

Credit where credit is due though, Vettel's Abu Dhabi drive was the best I've seen from him, even if the safety car propelled him on to the podium when he had absolutely no chance.

Come on USMAN u don't have to be good to join redbull look at Christian klien and Robert doornbos, sorry mate I dislike vettel plain and simply because he is a sore loser he is never content with anything other than first and blames everyone else look at turkey 2010 and I don't care if they rekin a radio glitch didn't tell seb mark was slowing down that's a gherkin weak excuse by maticitz himself to cover vettel why did mark have to move and not to mention the debacle of the whole 2010 season could've takin a guaranteed title baking mark from hungary on but no matichitz did what he could to make vettel win they would've have been idiots if vettel didn't come through and he only has petrov like grosjean this year who has helped him only 2011 was he champion that deserved although his car was the winner all Iam saying is lots of past drivers like alesi,Berger and even couldhard could dominate in that car vettel is good don't get me wrong but like i said his attitude is what's killing his eventual status also look at schumi he could've stayed at benetton and cleaned up I believe to atleast 1997 if not 98 as those benettons were quick cars but chose to leave a restore Ferrari he even turned down an offer from Ron Dennis in 1995 and he knew then neweywas going to join mclaren and still stuck to his dream to me vettel has to drive something else to really show his true skill

If Vettel is great, why team principals voted Alonso as the best driver of 2012 season? If Vettel is great why in a year he clinched 3 WDC in a row, Alonso received 35% points more than Vettel in team principals standings? If Vettel is great, why Alonso was voted as the best driver by 8 team principals, 2nd best from 3 team bosses and 3rd best from 1 (probably Christian Horner)? It's clear people running teams don't think Vettel is great, otherwise he would be much closer to Alonso or even in front of him. Vettel and Horner are saying this title was the most difficult to achieve and the best of all 3, yet team principals still rated Alonso's 2nd place much higher. Think about it for a moment.

If Vettel is great, why team principals voted Alonso as the best driver of 2012 season? If Vettel is great why in a year he clinched 3 WDC in a row, Alonso received 35% points more than Vettel in team principals standings? If Vettel is great, why Alonso was voted as the best driver by 8 team principals, 2nd best from 3 team bosses and 3rd best from 1 (probably Christian Horner)? It's clear people running teams don't think Vettel is great, otherwise he would be much closer to Alonso or even in front of him. Vettel and Horner are saying this title was the most difficult to achieve and the best of all 3, yet team principals still rated Alonso's 2nd place much higher. Think about it for a moment.

If Vettel is great, why team principals voted Alonso as the best driver of 2012 season? If Vettel is great why in a year he clinched 3 WDC in a row, Alonso received 35% points more than Vettel in team principals standings? If Vettel is great, why Alonso was voted as the best driver by 8 team principals, 2nd best from 3 team bosses and 3rd best from 1 (probably Christian Horner)? It's clear people running teams don't think Vettel is great, otherwise he would be much closer to Alonso or even in front of him. Vettel and Horner are saying this title was the most difficult to achieve and the best of all 3, yet team principals still rated Alonso's 2nd place much higher. Think about it for a moment.

If Vettel is great, why team principals voted Alonso as the best driver of 2012 season? If Vettel is great why in a year he clinched 3 WDC in a row, Alonso received 35% points more than Vettel in team principals standings? If Vettel is great, why Alonso was voted as the best driver by 8 team principals, 2nd best from 3 team bosses and 3rd best from 1 (probably Christian Horner)? It's clear people running teams don't think Vettel is great, otherwise he would be much closer to Alonso or even in front of him. Vettel and Horner are saying this title was the most difficult to achieve and the best of all 3, yet team principals still rated Alonso's 2nd place much higher. Think about it for a moment.

Are you being deliberately naive?

This is a voting for this year. Being a great means overall their careers.

By your standard Senna couldn't be a great, I mean he had a sh*t 1992 right?

Yes Vettel is a great. Wins in a STR, moves to Red Bull, beats Webber every time, beats Alonso twice who is a great himself, and wins 3 WDCs. Yes he has had some very good cars but he has beaten Webber every single season. I think its fair enough to start calling him great. Many don't want to because of his immaturity. But in terms of driving he has what it takes.

If Vettel is great, why team principals voted Alonso as the best driver of 2012 season? If Vettel is great why in a year he clinched 3 WDC in a row, Alonso received 35% points more than Vettel in team principals standings? If Vettel is great, why Alonso was voted as the best driver by 8 team principals, 2nd best from 3 team bosses and 3rd best from 1 (probably Christian Horner)? It's clear people running teams don't think Vettel is great, otherwise he would be much closer to Alonso or even in front of him. Vettel and Horner are saying this title was the most difficult to achieve and the best of all 3, yet team principals still rated Alonso's 2nd place much higher. Think about it for a moment.

Maybe you should think a lot moments more about it and get your facts straight.Greatness doesn't come from one year alone. And now go check the autosport team principal votings for 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 together to see who was the greatest in a 4-year span for the team bosses. Alonso didn't even make it in the top 3 all four years, Vettel got two first places and two second places in comparison to Alonso who got two first places, a fourth place and a third place.Think about that.....

One interesting aspect of Jackie Stewart's comment is that the main reason's he considers Vettel as 'not great' because he has not won in lesser machinery. He also quotes Fangio, Prost, Senna and Schumacher as greats by that yardstick.

I am NOT arguing here who is or is not great but Stewart's comments are rather flawed in that respect. Fangio not only did not win in any 'lesser' car but more often that not the cars he drove were utterly dominant over the opposition. It is well documented that he openly demanded that he got his temmmate's car if he felt that the other car was better and threatened to move teams if he did not get what he asked.

Likewise, Prost's 4 titles were in cars that were among the top frontrunners at the time. Only Senna and perhaps Schumacher during his Benetton years cam claim to have won races with cars that were not the best on the field.

In any case, dirvers of one era cannot be compared with another. Instead of asking how Vettel could have coped in the 1950s, one can also ask how Fangio could have managed with today's draconian regulations and political correctness.

But one thing I do agree with Stewart. It is awkward to lable any active driver as 'great'. Best to wait till he has retired.

For me he just hasn't proved enough yet for me to call him ''a great''. F1 is about racing other people and Vettel has had so many wins (the majority??) when he has just been cruising to the finish from pole.And statistics can only get you so far, he is still a fairly sloppy driver tbh. I want to see more of his genuine racecraft.So far I would rate him a well deserved 4th place of the best drivers on the current grid.