there's really no title that's indigenous to filipino martial arts. in the 1800s and early 1900s, eskrimadors (spanish for fencers, as they were called by their spanish counterparts) fought amongst themselves. they did this either for money, survival, etc ect. when these eskrimadors began teaching their art or styles to students, they were challenged. this i guess was their way of 'quality control'.

titles such as 'guru', 'punong guro', etc. were reserved for religious teachers (the title itself came from sanskrit). titles such as 'punong guru' and 'grandmaster' were unnecessary because styles and arts were passed down through family. there's no need to call your uncle, grandfather, or father 'guru' or 'grandmaster'.

the words 'guru' and 'kali' are new words introduced in the 60s and 70s to filipinize filipino martial arts. 'punong guru' or 'tuhon' were used arbitrarily to replace the english 'grandmaster'. 'kali' was introduced in the 70s also to replace the words eskrima and arnis, which are spanish. interestingly, these replacement of words began in the u.s.-- not the philippines. guro and tuhon are words with religious connotations, while the word kali seems to have no anthropological, cultural, historical basis. kali has now come to be associated with the more blade oriented styles.

It seems to be a tradition in FMA to have terminology disputes with near religous fervor. To this American, it often seems analogous to an American and a Mexican over the word "negro". For one it is considered an unpleasant racial term, for the other it means "black". What an odd debate that would be!

Terminology is certainly not a forte of mine, but I do know that when i trained with Edgar Sulite, as the founder of Lameco, he used the term "Punong Guro". It might be translated as "Grandmaster" or "teacher of teachers-- master teacher"

Concerning Kali, there seem to be many Filipinos of the opinion of our anonymous guest, and certainly its use is a minority one, but I am of the opinion that the term does have proper lineage. This point having been debated many, many, many times before I am uninterested to go into yet again. In that we use the term Kali, I merely note this diversity of opinion for your awareness.

i only know that in wing chun the terminology is very important, also stuff like pictures in the trainingsroom......and so on. i heard the phillipino teachers handle this easyier. titles are not so important. i only ask,because im interrested in the thinking and the roots of the phillipino-practioners. not to discuss aboutthings that have no end (like: is arnis a better name than escrima? ...).

logan,i think japanese, chinese, and korean martial arts focus on lineage because of confucianism. just a theory. you see, if you also go to east asian households, you'll also see photos of 'ancestors'. so culturally, they are predisposed to lineages.

filipino culture, however, cares not for 'ancestor' worship. every generation is tested, not relying on history.

logan,i think japanese, chinese, and korean martial arts focus on lineage because of confucianism. just a theory. you see, if you also go to east asian households, you'll also see photos of 'ancestors'. so culturally, they are predisposed to lineages.

filipino culture, however, cares not for 'ancestor' worship. every generation is tested, not relying on history.

In Ernesto Presas' book it states that, "When a tiger dies, it leaves it's skin - when a man dies, he leaves his name" Sounds like ancestor worship is alive and well in the Phillipines.

If ancestor worship was not alive and well, all the homage being paid to various teachers from the various sects of FMA would not exist. There are those who seek knowledge of skillset from various legendary teachers. and claimed they learned from so and so. Again, another example.

Anybody that has trained under a nobody or somebody not well known usually gets tested moreso than one who has lineage. If not, why do people end up doing the groupie thing than seek the lesser known ones who have learned like skill but doesn't go around flaunting or advertising it? I find that interesting.

Look at Guro Dan Inosanto... his schedule of late seems to be more booked up than ever.

ancestor worship in the philippines, as far as martial arts go, if you notice, only go as far back as the beginning of the 1900s.

the importance of lineage in FMA began after WWII, because many people felt lineage was an important part of one's fighting prowess.

if you ask people about lineage before the 1900s, people wouldn't know anything. people won't know because lineage in FMA was never important. it was only when FMA was compared to other east asian arts, who celebrated lineages, that many felt they had to mention 'lineage'.

such dogma has no place in real fighting.

to quote bruce lee (once you've achieved the level of virtuousity), "forget everything your teacher has taught you". this is a call for innovation, to not be bogged down on dogmas and lineages. FMA already had this, then it lost it, then it found it again.

Anybody that has trained under a nobody or somebody not well known usually gets tested moreso than one who has lineage. If not, why do people end up doing the groupie thing than seek the lesser known ones who have learned like skill but doesn't go around flaunting or advertising it? I find that interesting.

availability!!! people will seek those who are well advertised. people arent going to seek someone who doesn't want to be found or isn't well advertised. there are only two types of masters in this world, one who makes a commodity of his art and the other that doesn't--money, no money. but whether one is better than the other, is none of my concern.

but then you have to ask why and how FMA lineage began in the 50s and 60s, to document early 1900s eskrimadors?

answer: because filipino eskrimadors felt they had to, amidst east asian arts which became popular and commercialized after WWII in the u.s. new FMA fighters (i.e. presas, inosanto, largusa, etc.) felt they had to legitimize themselves thru lineages, following the tradition of karate, judo, wing-tsun, tae kwon do, etc.

for all we know he could've been some old, feeble datu (leader) calling the shots in the magellan coastal battle from a hammock on the beach, while watching the fight unfold.

doesn't support 'lineage' in the FMA. name another FMA master that pre-dates the 1900s.

That is the problem with history. When it becomes revisionist and there is the six degres of seperation, it all goes to shit.

Looks like the Spaniards and Americans did a postal on Filipino history. Who knows what the real truth is anymore? Which renders this thread moot... as well as any opinion since it is as current as yesterday's old news.

This is what I am gleaning from where this is gonna' go. Best to end it now. We are all being lied to in the end.

but then you have to ask why and how FMA lineage began in the 50s and 60s, to document early 1900s eskrimadors?

answer: because filipino eskrimadors felt they had to, amidst east asian arts which became popular and commercialized after WWII in the u.s. new FMA fighters (i.e. presas, inosanto, largusa, etc.) felt they had to legitimize themselves thru lineages, following the tradition of karate, judo, wing-tsun, tae kwon do, etc.

please educate us of this proper lineage. if there is such an ancient term as kali .and if there were pre-Spanish styles of Kali

...then my follow up question would be that would these ancient Kali styles have direct lineage to the same of the Kali styles that "Filipino-americans" (some who are even revered as the authority but have never even stepped foot in any of the 7100 islands)or homebred Filipinos who are marketing the art in the US for cash have named the art Kali?

this is what we have so far on this subject, masterboy... hope that helps.

Quote from: masterboy

Woof Guro Crafty,

"but I am of the opinion that the term does have proper lineage."

please educate us of this proper lineage. if there is such an ancient term as kali .and if there were pre-Spanish styles of Kali

...then my follow up question would be that would these ancient Kali styles have direct lineage to the same of the Kali styles that "Filipino-americans" (some who are even revered as the authority but have never even stepped foot in any of the 7100 islands)or homebred Filipinos who are marketing the art in the US for cash have named the art Kali?

Quote from: yojimbo

Quote from: Erica

I heard people began using Kali arbitrarily in the 60s and 70s, here in the US (sf bay area to be exact), to differentiate themselves from eskrima or arnis. It was more blade oriented, with more spiritual connotations.

But, if you read or talked to old eskrimadors, no one really used the word Kali at the turn of the century. They were just eskrimadors, who practiced eskrima/arnis. So, where does the word Kali come from?

Kali is just a term used to differentiate. Basically, it's for maketing. An art based on the blade is somewhat awe inspiring. But, actually, I don't see any difference between stick based and blade based eskrima/arnis. I guess sticking out is good. Maybe I'll call my art "Koochi-Koo" to differentiate it from eskrima, arnis, and kali. It's the next evolution!!! LOL, j/k.

Quote from: Spadaccino

The term kali is usually claimed to be the "original" term for FMA, but it is in fact historically invalid. As Mark Wiley pointed out in Filipino Martial Culture:

With regard to the term kali as being the name of a pre-Hispanic Filipino martial art, it is not. There is no historical, anthropological, or literary evidence to support the contention that an art by this name existed during or prior to the sixteenth century.

Dr. Ned Nepangue, in his fascinating essay, "Questioning the Origins of Eskrima", also observed:

Kali was never a traditional name for the native Filipino martial art. If one goes to a secluded place in Cebu, for example, and asks the elder eskrimadores if they know what kali is, they will probably say they have no idea. And these people are supposed to know.

The term "kali" appears to have first been used to describe FMA in 1957, when Placido Yambao wrote the first modern book on FMA, called Knowledge in the art of arnis. Many theories and claims have been postulated, as to the origins of the term. Wiley wrote:

In fact, there is a great deal of speculation as to the original meaning and use of the term in the Philippines. Placido Yambao, for example, equates the shortened term kali as having derived from martial arts terms in various dialects such as pagkalikali (Ibanag), kalirongan (Pangasinan), and kaliradman (Visayan). Remy Presas posits that the term derives from the Indonesian martial art of tjakalele. Some claim that the term derives from the black and bloody Hindu goddess Kali, consort of the Hindu god Siva. Others associate the term kali as deriving from the name of the kalis sword, and the reverse spelling of silat (or silak). Still others equate the term with an abbreviation of Kalimantan (North Borneo), the island from which the ten datus fled, eventually establishing the Bothoan on Panay. However, a study of various historical, anthropoligical, literary, and "popular" sources indicates that the term, as used to identify a martial art, did not exist prior to the twentieth century.

Wiley goes on to note that the term "kali" really became popular in the 1970s, due to the writings of Dan Inosanto. It may be that Inosanto chose to group all of FMA under one term (kali) for simplicity's sake.

For more info on all of this check out Mark Wiley's Filipino Martial Culture, as well as the following essays from Arnis: Reflections on the History and Development of the Filipino Martial Arts (edited by Wiley):

"A Question of Origins" by Felipe P . Jocano, Jr.

"Questioning the Origins of Eskrima" by Dr. Ned Nepangue

"The Origins of Traditional Silat in the Philippines" by Joma B. Rivera

"Eskrima, Spanish Rapier, and the Lost Continent of Mu: Thoughts on Diffusionism in Martial Arts Histories" by J. Christoph Amberger

"On Purism and Development" by Mark Wiley

Wiley also has an interesting article called "Classical Eskrima: The Evolution and Etymology of a Filipino Fencing Form", which appeared in the Volume 3-Number2-1994 issue of Journal of Asian Martial Arts. He covers all the material regarding the term eskrima. It is very interesting.

Let me know if I can help with anything else.

Peace,

David Black Mastro

[/quote]

Quote from: grace

so how is it historically valid?

personally, i'm tired of having to use spanish, french, and english names for 'filipino martial arts'. hell, even the word filipino is foreign in origin (from king philip of spain?). so, i would really like to call it something indigenous.

but, this indigenous name needs to be historically, tradionally, culturally relevant. it cannot be some made up word. becuz if you create an arbitrary word and claim it to have historical relevance, people will question its validity and laugh.

this validity should not be open to arguments. it should be easy to prove. others who question this name/word/title should automatically be shot down with easily proven facts.

the word "KALI" fails to accomplish the above necessities. so, while we await this 'indigenous' term to return to us from the obscurity of the ancient past, we will have to settle for the words given to us by the spaniards (filipino, eskrima, arnis, abanico, florette, corto, largo, medio, corrida, etc).

p.s.-- if you possess these historical validities/facts, do share them so we may weight the word KALI accordingly.

p.p.s.--my questioning the etymology of the word, does not take away from the art or the practitioners of these arts. no disrespect is meant.

I am thoroughly jet-lagged and if I growl a bit in what follows, , , ,

My dad taught me that if you repeat yourself, you teach people not to listen.

Please forgive me, but I have been through this so many times, that I am done with it. EVERYTHING said in this thread I have seen many times before and has been thoroughly responded to many times over the years.

Yes of course some use it for marketing, and yes many FMA people in the Philippines have never heard of it. So what? This does not disprove excrement. IMHO, not lightly formed, the term "Kali" has legitimate roots.

I am not about the theology of terminology and have better things to do with my day.

we just want the very least proof that you have, so we can atleast say, "hmmmmmm, maybe kali is legitimate after all".

we are not here to debate, we are just asking for what little shred of evidence supporting the word kali.

one cannot keep saying, "the word has historical evidence and is legitimate, and not offer proofs for it".

it's just a matter of listing precedence and evidence for others to learn from. this is also for kali practioners reading this thread, so they'd know how to respond to people who question the title of their art. really simple. this isn't a debate. it's information sharing.

so it could've been KUPA, for KUmo (fist) and PAspas (speed), or maybe LALI, for LAwas (body) and LIhok (movement).

the question is... where's the historicity of this WORD? if there is none, then just say it's a filipino-american development in the 60s. and it will be accepted as a new development in FMA. but, to say something is historical without the minimum of proofs is just silly.

Filipinos have history in the US dating back to the 1500s. Why would the term Kali have to be a product of Filipino Americans in the 1960s. From what I have heard, word of mouth, it is at least as old as Filipino Veterans from WWII that imigrated to the US after the War.

Once again, check out the posting I mentioned above for a more thorough discussion of this matter.

Filipinos have history in the US dating back to the 1500s. Why would the term Kali have to be a product of Filipino Americans in the 1960s. From what I have heard, word of mouth, it is at least as old as Filipino Veterans from WWII that imigrated to the US after the War.

Once again, check out the posting I mentioned above for a more thorough discussion of this matter.

Happy Halloween,Russ

hi russ,the word 'arbitrary' is used because KALI wasn't really used in the early 1900s (or even prior), nor did the eskrimadors from stockton or other eskrimadors born in the early 1900s who stayed in the philippines. KALI only became prominent in the 1960s and 1970s here in the U.S. basically, what i'm saying is... there is no proof, either by mouth or written that KALI is indeed the title used for this 'original' martial art found in the philippines.

with that said, you're suppose to say: "actually, there is proof" and then outline this evidence. but, a belief without the support of evidence is Faith, while that which is supported with evidence is Fact.

When I asked to learn the Cebuano terms from my stickfighting coach, he poo-poop'ed it and discouraged me from inquiring further. In the many years I trained with him, I may have learned maybe a half a dozen terms.

He said to me it doesn't matter what it is called. It wouldn't help me learn any better and English was a perfectly good language to learn with. I discovered this as time went on and he was right.

Who cares what they call it and what terms are used? The shit just works. In fact, they can call it shit but if it works - it works. Anything else discussed is pointless... unless you are spending more time being a history buff or hoplologist than training. 'Nuff said.

When I asked to learn the Cebuano terms from my stickfighting coach, he poo-poop'ed it and discouraged me from inquiring further. In the many years I trained with him, I may have learned maybe a half a dozen terms.

maybe he just didn't want u to learn cebuano, period!!! most balintawak teachers don't teach their non-filipino students the cebuano terms cuz they usually hold certain information back, including techniques.

Who cares what they call it and what terms are used? The shit just works. In fact, they can call it shit but if it works - it works.

I think the problem is that many people in the FMA community have made various claims regarding terminology, etc. They have changed over from common expressions like eskrima to things like "kali", presumably to give the art a more authentic Filipino "feel". Why this is necessary is beyond me, since the PI are probably THE major "martial arts crossroads", where one can find, in addition to the native styles, influences from Indonesia, India, China, Japan, and Europe (mainly Spain, of course). FMA terms are a mixture of many indigenous languages (Tagalog, Visayan, et al) and Spanish. What's the big deal, and why bother to change over from established terms to something else? The Filipino martial arts are truly unique in their composition--certainly, what other Asian styles can claim such a varied and interesting history and lineage? This diversity is what makes FMA so versatile and effective, and that's a GOOD thing.

Then, when some folks question the switch to historically invalid terms like "kali", others simply blow it off by saying "who cares what it's called, as long as it works?"

Quote

Anything else discussed is pointless... unless you are spending more time being a history buff or hoplologist than training. 'Nuff said.

Ah yes, the ol' macho "we should only be training" bit. What about folks who are both hoplologists AND serious martial artists--like the late founder of modern hoplology himself, Donn F. Draeger? How do folks like him fit into your equation?

I'm sorry if any of the above offends anyone (it's honestly not meant to), but I've seen Guest's line of argument too many times in the past, and I'm a little weary of it.

Peace,

David Black Mastro/TFS

Logged

"And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable." --Sir John Smythe, 1590

Our culture is so deeply entrenched with other cultures that came to the Philippines before, during and after the spanish time. and should we forget that the name for our country "Philipines" came from the name Phillip of Spain? Who knows what our country was called before it was dubbed "Philippines?"I remember Pop and I discussing where/how the term "kali" was used as an altername for arnis.Kali is a Goddess(Hindu?)that has numerous arms (about 6 or eight), and each hand ( that is connected to each arm, of course) holds a sword or a weapon. When the movement in arnis/kali/whatever is done, it is so fast and so effective/deadly that it is as if the individual has several weaponed hands. He read this somewhere.This could have been an opinion of an author. It could have been an Indian author. Who knows?Does'nt this make sense?

so, now KALI is hindu? that?s kinda reaching it.

Quote from: Allain Atienza

As a Filipino in the United States, surrounded by other cultures and encouraged to investigate one?s own heritage, it?s not good enough to know that ?Magellan brought Christianity and so the story of the Philippines began?? Many of our older countrymen are satisfied with this, yet it is important to delve and research and find out more. Many more young Filipinos are learning the Baybayin scripts (the funny Elvish writing on our website) Many others, when learning that Malay traders sailed as far as Madagascar, are filled with pride, knowing that they come from a race and culture that is not just a bastard offshoot of local Asians and Conquistadors. So? Kali, or Arnis or Escrima? In reality, one is just as good as the other, and I use them interchangeably at times. But in my opinion, the term kali, although it may not be as old or established as the other names, carries with it a cultural implication, a leaning towards questions and answers about the deepness our culture. Now what would be really cool is if someone really researched and found out what we called the Art before the Spaniards came. I?m guessing they just called it ?fighting? Something like ?Laban-laban? Maybe they called it "Bong"

it would be really cool if someone did research, but until then people shouldn?t just arbitrarily use words with no historical support.

and, if it is indeed 300 yrs old, where is the minimum proof?

Quote

Then why use Kali over the other names, which have to be at least three hundred years older? (Give or take, I?m bad at math)Well, I remember being initially taught Arnis de Mano, and everything was fine and happy. But in the late 70?s, the word Kali popped up (I don?t know who started it) and it was well received here in the East Coast. My father, who was ever hungry for any information about the Philippines and our culture before the coming of the Spanish, loved that there was a word being widely used to describe our Art that did not come from our one-time conquerors. I never learned that it was ?older? or more ?accurate? than Arnis or Escrima, only that it didn?t originate from Spain. There were others who resisted the new term, who clung to the older nomenclature, feeling that it was more traditional. Yet many students of the Art, most of them young and swept up in the cultural self-awareness that was just gaining momentum in the 70?s, embraced the alternative out of cultural pride.

i just visited the Atienza site and found the thread you were referring to, russ. i took the quotes above and posted it here, to make a point that even the ones who use the word KALI do not even know how they came to use this word.

this relates to the whole issue of historicity. now, of course this doesn't take anything away from their skill. and we are not attacking their art, but instead trying to figure out where and how the title KALI began.

now, if the one's who readily use the word KALI do not even know the origins of this word, then it's pretty easy to deduce that this word isn't the 'ancient' name, but rather an unacademic attempt to rename and 'filipinize' FMA here in the US, to replace the spanish terms already in use since the 1700s in the Philippines.

below is also a good point... i believe studies have shown that the word KALI actually came from a popular Visayan word KALIBANGA'. i've heard people say that this ancient word has been around since time began in the islands. i think it has something to do with the water or the food found there. it's worth looking into...

Quote from: Guest

so KALI is just an arbitrary fussion of two visayan words?

so it could've been KUPA, for KUmo (fist) and PAspas (speed), or maybe LALI, for LAwas (body) and LIhok (movement).

the question is... where's the historicity of this WORD? if there is none, then just say it's a filipino-american development in the 60s. and it will be accepted as a new development in FMA. but, to say something is historical without the minimum of proofs is just silly.

KAMUT is a filipino dialect word for hand, and LIHOK is a word for movement or motion.

For a more detailed discussion of this see the Atienza Kali website forum on 6/11/03.

I do not want to discredit Mr. Inosanto for helping to propagate the Filipino Martial Arts. However but why should I blindly take this guy's words as regards to terms when he invents words such as KINOMUTAI? He has not even visited the Philippines to really get a feel of what real Filipino martial arts culture or filipino culture in general reallly is.

He has been a strong advocate of the MAPHILINDO term, but if he would have visited the Philippines and stayed here for at least a year, then, he would have felt how the Philippine's culture is unique compared to Malaysia and Indonesia. He will see how the Filipino culture can be compared to Filipino food which is a weird mix of western and eastern cultures.

He has been a strong advocate of the MAPHILINDO term, but if he would have visited the Philippines and stayed here for at least a year, then, he would have felt how the Philippine's culture is unique compared to Malaysia and Indonesia. He will see how the Filipino culture can be compared to Filipino food which is a weird mix of western and eastern cultures.

i'm a filipina. and i've also spent considerable time in indonesia and malaysia. there are more close similarities between these 3 countries, than they do differences. it's been said that if you speak ilokano, bisaya, and tagalog, you'll survive pretty well in malaysia and indonesia, which is very true. if the linguistics similarities are so close, then it's pretty safe to say that many other cultural similarities exists as well--i.e. martial arts. mr. inosanto recognized this and has promoted the very similarities in the martial arts.

below is also a good point... i believe studies have shown that the word KALI actually came from a popular Visayan word KALIBANGA'. i've heard people say that this ancient word has been around since time began in the islands. i think it has something to do with the water or the food found there. it's worth looking into...

i'm a filipina. and i've also spent considerable time in indonesia and malaysia. there are more close similarities between these 3 countries, than they do differences. it's been said that if you speak ilokano, bisaya, and tagalog, you'll survive pretty well in malaysia and indonesia, which is very true. if the linguistics similarities are so close, then it's pretty safe to say that many other cultural similarities exists as well--i.e. martial arts. mr. inosanto recognized this and has promoted the very similarities in the martial arts.

so, how does this relate to the KALI discussion?

I do not believe so that if you know ilokano bisaya and tagalog that you will surviv pretty well in malaysia and indonesia. Come to think of it, a pangasinense who only speaks pure pangalatok can not even survive speaking to person who speaks pure hilgaynon or bisaya, how much more can a pangasinense trying to go to malaysia and trying to buy ice kachang from a store in Kuala Lumpur from a pure bahasa speaker?

THe author wrote "unique" and did not mention similarities. I would agree with you that there are similarities, but it's like comparing the Brazilians from Argentinians....they are both similar but unique alot of ways, both are in South America, Latin roots, but one dances the samba and the other has Argentinian tango. ONe has capoeria and the other has probably some other art. ONe speaks and was a Portuguese colony the other Spanish. Both eat beef but cook them differently.

The authors point in writing it was probablly Mr. Inosantos word is taken like Bible truth by most people in the US and isnt this thread about terms?So I think his argument is withn th e context of this thread.

obviously you've never visited or traveled to these countries. mr. inosanto has traveled extensively and therefore has become the authority in these matters. i for one, agree with mr. inosanto's view on the very close similarities of malaysian, indonesian, and filipino martial arts, among other facets of their similar cultures. if you cannot see the linguistic similarities atleast, then i'd have to assume you only attended high school and are ignorant of these matters. which puts you in a lower position than those who have travelled and learned.

but, more importantly, what is your point? and how does it relate of the ongoing discussion about KALI? did Kali really come from the word Kalibanga?

When I asked to learn the Cebuano terms from my stickfighting coach, he poo-poop'ed it and discouraged me from inquiring further. In the many years I trained with him, I may have learned maybe a half a dozen terms.

maybe he just didn't want u to learn cebuano, period!!! most balintawak teachers don't teach their non-filipino students the cebuano terms cuz they usually hold certain information back, including techniques.

Yeah, I guess he was holding back. That is why he used to drive me over to his house on weekends to train me extra and for free. He insisted on me training more with him on top of the normal classes and his busy schedule. I am sure he had better things to do since he was quite well off planning for retirement, had a boat and liked ocean fishing, spending time with his wife, and having his daughter or relatives visit. Yep - that must be it. He was holding back. Bummer. I really got burned.

Who cares what they call it and what terms are used? The shit just works. In fact, they can call it shit but if it works - it works.

-snip-

Then, when some folks question the switch to historically invalid terms like "kali", others simply blow it off by saying "who cares what it's called, as long as it works?"

Quote

Anything else discussed is pointless... unless you are spending more time being a history buff or hoplologist than training. 'Nuff said.

Ah yes, the ol' macho "we should only be training" bit. What about folks who are both hoplologists AND serious martial artists--like the late founder of modern hoplology himself, Donn F. Draeger? How do folks like him fit into your equation?

I'm sorry if any of the above offends anyone (it's honestly not meant to), but I've seen Guest's line of argument too many times in the past, and I'm a little weary of it.

Peace,

David Black Mastro/TFS

Rebuttal to the two points...

The terms don't really matter to me... really. You can call it whatever you like including an ice cream sundae. I guess people like to identify with something and be part of a collective. No problem. I can respect that. I just do not place emphasis on it.

As for Don Draeger, I highly respect people like him and that research into such subjects. The same can be said of John Gilby / Robert Smith. There are many others who research into such topics of the fighting traditions of various cultures. Some societies even preserve such knowledge and it never sees the light of day. Intriguing to read and very provocative. For me, if all that research does not produce, substantiate, or make revelation any lost knowledge for constructive use or application then it is spinning one's wheels. But that is just me.

I guess my focus is in a different place but I respect anybody that goes with their passion. Not my cup of tea, though. At a certain point it does become pointless. More power to those that can dig up truths for the rest of us.

i'm a filipina. and i've also spent considerable time in indonesia and malaysia. there are more close similarities between these 3 countries, than they do differences. it's been said that if you speak ilokano, bisaya, and tagalog, you'll survive pretty well in malaysia and indonesia, which is very true. if the linguistics similarities are so close, then it's pretty safe to say that many other cultural similarities exists as well--i.e. martial arts. mr. inosanto recognized this and has promoted the very similarities in the martial arts.

Hi Sheryn,

With all due respect to both Mr. Inosanto (the man is awesome--and my own teacher trained under him for some time) and you, how can you come to such a conclusion? Similarities in linguistics are not necessarily synonymous with similiarities in martial arts.

Besides, how would one then account for the fact that something like 60% of FMA terms are in Spanish?

I could show you umbrella blocks and snake disarms from 15th century German fechtbuchs, which predate any known European contact with the Philippines. This doesn't mean that those techniques were "invented" in late Medieval or Renaissance Germany--it simply means that different martial peoples came up with similar solutions to similar problems, at different times.

Likewise, while I certainly don't feel that FMA came from Spanish fencing (and this is stressed by both Filipino martial artists in general, as well as modern classical fencing exponents, like Ramon Martinez), there are clearly some similarities with the two--how much of this overlap is actually due to a cross-cultural exchange, and how much is the result of "parallel evolution", is anybody's guess. Ultimately it doesn't matter, but the relationship was not lost on several prominent FMA practitioners over the years. Jose Rizal, in addition to being an arnisador, also studied Spanish esgrima, both in the Philippines at the Tanghalan ng Sandata, and in Spain. More modern masters have noted similarities as well, such as Amante P. Marinas, who has written on this subject numerous times.

What this all boils down to is the truly unique position that the Philippine Islands occupy in the MA world--being that "martial arts crossroads". Again, there are influences from many Asian martial arts, as well as some European ones, that are represented in FMA as a whole. This doesn't make FMA any less "Filipino"--not one bit.

Respectfully,

David Black Mastro

Logged

"And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable." --Sir John Smythe, 1590

Who cares what they call it and what terms are used? The shit just works. In fact, they can call it shit but if it works - it works.

-snip-

Then, when some folks question the switch to historically invalid terms like "kali", others simply blow it off by saying "who cares what it's called, as long as it works?"

Quote

Anything else discussed is pointless... unless you are spending more time being a history buff or hoplologist than training. 'Nuff said.

Ah yes, the ol' macho "we should only be training" bit. What about folks who are both hoplologists AND serious martial artists--like the late founder of modern hoplology himself, Donn F. Draeger? How do folks like him fit into your equation?

I'm sorry if any of the above offends anyone (it's honestly not meant to), but I've seen Guest's line of argument too many times in the past, and I'm a little weary of it.

Peace,

David Black Mastro/TFS

Rebuttal to the two points...

The terms don't really matter to me... really. You can call it whatever you like including an ice cream sundae. I guess people like to identify with something and be part of a collective. No problem. I can respect that. I just do not place emphasis on it.

As for Don Draeger, I highly respect people like him and that research into such subjects. The same can be said of John Gilby / Robert Smith. There are many others who research into such topics of the fighting traditions of various cultures. Some societies even preserve such knowledge and it never sees the light of day. Intriguing to read and very provocative. For me, if all that research does not produce, substantiate, or make revelation any lost knowledge for constructive use or application then it is spinning one's wheels. But that is just me.

I guess my focus is in a different place but I respect anybody that goes with their passion. Not my cup of tea, though. At a certain point it does become pointless. More power to those that can dig up truths for the rest of us.

Fair enough.

Peace,

David Black Mastro

Logged

"And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable." --Sir John Smythe, 1590

great post!!! but, have you also considered inquiring from others who use the title KALI? like kali illustrisimo, pekiti tirsia kali, villabrille/largusa kali, sayoc kali, kamatuuran kali, etc. they just might have the answers you're looking for...

Our culture is so deeply entrenched with other cultures that came to the Philippines before, during and after the spanish time. and should we forget that the name for our country "Philipines" came from the name Phillip of Spain? Who knows what our country was called before it was dubbed "Philippines?"I remember Pop and I discussing where/how the term "kali" was used as an altername for arnis.Kali is a Goddess(Hindu?)that has numerous arms (about 6 or eight), and each hand ( that is connected to each arm, of course) holds a sword or a weapon. When the movement in arnis/kali/whatever is done, it is so fast and so effective/deadly that it is as if the individual has several weaponed hands. He read this somewhere.This could have been an opinion of an author. It could have been an Indian author. Who knows?Does'nt this make sense?

so, now KALI is hindu? that?s kinda reaching it.

Quote from: Allain Atienza

As a Filipino in the United States, surrounded by other cultures and encouraged to investigate one?s own heritage, it?s not good enough to know that ?Magellan brought Christianity and so the story of the Philippines began?? Many of our older countrymen are satisfied with this, yet it is important to delve and research and find out more. Many more young Filipinos are learning the Baybayin scripts (the funny Elvish writing on our website) Many others, when learning that Malay traders sailed as far as Madagascar, are filled with pride, knowing that they come from a race and culture that is not just a bastard offshoot of local Asians and Conquistadors. So? Kali, or Arnis or Escrima? In reality, one is just as good as the other, and I use them interchangeably at times. But in my opinion, the term kali, although it may not be as old or established as the other names, carries with it a cultural implication, a leaning towards questions and answers about the deepness our culture. Now what would be really cool is if someone really researched and found out what we called the Art before the Spaniards came. I?m guessing they just called it ?fighting? Something like ?Laban-laban? Maybe they called it "Bong"

it would be really cool if someone did research, but until then people shouldn?t just arbitrarily use words with no historical support.

and, if it is indeed 300 yrs old, where is the minimum proof?

Quote

Then why use Kali over the other names, which have to be at least three hundred years older? (Give or take, I?m bad at math)Well, I remember being initially taught Arnis de Mano, and everything was fine and happy. But in the late 70?s, the word Kali popped up (I don?t know who started it) and it was well received here in the East Coast. My father, who was ever hungry for any information about the Philippines and our culture before the coming of the Spanish, loved that there was a word being widely used to describe our Art that did not come from our one-time conquerors. I never learned that it was ?older? or more ?accurate? than Arnis or Escrima, only that it didn?t originate from Spain. There were others who resisted the new term, who clung to the older nomenclature, feeling that it was more traditional. Yet many students of the Art, most of them young and swept up in the cultural self-awareness that was just gaining momentum in the 70?s, embraced the alternative out of cultural pride.

i just visited the Atienza site and found the thread you were referring to, russ. i took the quotes above and posted it here, to make a point that even the ones who use the word KALI do not even know how they came to use this word.

this relates to the whole issue of historicity. now, of course this doesn't take anything away from their skill. and we are not attacking their art, but instead trying to figure out where and how the title KALI began.

now, if the one's who readily use the word KALI do not even know the origins of this word, then it's pretty easy to deduce that this word isn't the 'ancient' name, but rather an unacademic attempt to rename and 'filipinize' FMA here in the US, to replace the spanish terms already in use since the 1700s in the Philippines.

Yeah, I guess he was holding back. That is why he used to drive me over to his house on weekends to train me extra and for free. He insisted on me training more with him on top of the normal classes and his busy schedule. I am sure he had better things to do since he was quite well off planning for retirement, had a boat and liked ocean fishing, spending time with his wife, and having his daughter or relatives visit.

sounds very romantic!!! more power to you both and hope everything works out in the future!!! as for me, san francisco is a great place to visit, but i wouldn't live there.

Yeah, I guess he was holding back. That is why he used to drive me over to his house on weekends to train me extra and for free. He insisted on me training more with him on top of the normal classes and his busy schedule. I am sure he had better things to do since he was quite well off planning for retirement, had a boat and liked ocean fishing, spending time with his wife, and having his daughter or relatives visit.

sounds very romantic!!! more power to you both and hope everything works out in the future!!! as for me, san francisco is a great place to visit, but i wouldn't live there.

Love is stronger than hate, they say. Whoever said anything about San Fran? Maybe you might be able to make it out to San Fran when the parole board finally says it is OK. I heard that sunny weather helps with ricketts developed while in solitary. I guess some people like to stay in the joint especially when they get back to general population. Why go to Castro street for the hunt when you can get it for free while bending over for the soap in the shower?

great post!!! but, have you also considered inquiring from others who use the title KALI? like kali illustrisimo, pekiti tirsia kali, villabrille/largusa kali, sayoc kali, kamatuuran kali, etc. they just might have the answers you're looking for...

-snip-

this relates to the whole issue of historicity. now, of course this doesn't take anything away from their skill. and we are not attacking their art, but instead trying to figure out where and how the title KALI began.

now, if the one's who readily use the word KALI do not even know the origins of this word, then it's pretty easy to deduce that this word isn't the 'ancient' name, but rather an unacademic attempt to rename and 'filipinize' FMA here in the US, to replace the spanish terms already in use since the 1700s in the Philippines.

[/quote]

Observation 1 - EHHHHHHHH! Got that one wrong! It's "KALIS" Illustrisimo. Get with the program or don't get it at all. Looks like you haven't been correctly informed or have not enlightened yourself wholly, either. Looks like po - tay - toe, po - ta - toe / to - may - toe, to - ma - toe applies here, buddy.

Observation 2 - When you attack the validity of somebody's name, you attack their art. Plain and simple. Looks like you are doing some attacking to me. It's like calling caviar = shit.

Observation 3 - So your deduction of an unacademic attempt is just as bogus by association. You claim to surmise from unsubstantiated information on origins and offer an alternate explanation instead. You blew it by claiming it's not an opinion so your musings could be equally full of holes like swiss cheese. Further speculation to substantiate the Spanish origins, without any proof of your own, is equally flawed and questionable in agenda, intent, and motivation. You contradict yourself by doing the same thing. Better check your foil beanie for leakage or go back to CSICOP and brush up those debunking skills. You do know you are talking about history don't you? It is about as accurate as SCUD missles being lead to the target by blind guide dogs.

In the Philippines, an indigenous survival fighting art always existed in some form. There was no consolidated TERM for it, so people named it what they wanted to name it. If they called it anything at all.

When the Spanish arrived they influenced the language of many Filipinos through Conquesta, it was common for Spaniards to record events using their practice of historical omission. Therefore, some began calling their fighting arts using Spanish lingual influences like Arnis and Eskrima - nothing wrong with that.

Vincente Rafael (Ph. D. in SE Asian History from Cornell University and professor of History at the University of Hawaii), listed Spanish accounts of how the Tagals easily assimilated the manner of dress, and even their written alphabet- so different from their own native script (Alibata). The only thing that separated the Indio from the Castilian was their speech. Tagals who were unarmed (talking guns and a united militia) and under Spanish occupation lived in constant fear when a Spaniard who had the power to shoot them on the spot would approach them. Externally, a Tagal could mimic Spanish dress - but within them was an uncertainty; they were disguised as Spaniards but they could not understand what the Castilian was trying to say. They did not know if they were being mocked or put to death.

In 1610 a Tagal printer named Tomas Pinpin devised a way to alleviate the shock of the Castilian. In hopes that his people would understand the Spaniard from the INSIDE, expose and take away their secret alien speech. He printed the first book of translation and lesson for the Tagal reader. Pinpin believed that to be able to engage in a linguistic exchange with the Spanish is to take away the fear. They could better gauge Spanish intentions. Vincente wrote, " Tagalogs such as Pinpin would thus have at their disposal a way to inoculate themselves against the larger shock of conquest." The Filipino immunization from within began and in time the Tagals were now in control of their own secret language. They knew the enemy's thoughts while the enemy was lulled into thinking they would stand to rule forever.

The Spanish themselves acknowledged a form of indigenous fighting existed prior to their arrival.

The root words of many Filipino terms depicting war are not Spanish at all, but rooted in Sanskrit. From the influence of the SriVisayan / Filipino commerce that existed well before the arrival of Islam and Spain. (Read William Henry Scott's book Barangay)

Today, some Filipinos acknowledge that and refer to this Filipino survival fighting art as KALI. It does not mean it was called KALI back then, but they refer to the consolidated Filipino native arts as Kali because they do not want to call it the terms which the Spanish influenced speakers called it. It is their prerogative as modern day warriors.

Thus, I can understand when people call KALI the MOTHER ART. It states the arts were there prior to Spain and IF one wants to use a term for it- why not use a Sanskrit based one. Sanskrit is the calligraphy from which our alibata is based. Sanskrit is the language from which the word "Maharlika" originates. Sanskrit terms existed in the islands prior to Spain's arrival.

One could just say these fighting arts (KALI, ARNIS, ESKRIMA) represent the BLOOD of the NATION. For that is what our ancestors paid for it.

Here's when things begin to get hairy...

Due to miscommunication, mistranslation or outright deception by others, the term KALI has been a thorn for other Filipinos who favor the terms, ARNIS, ESKRIMA. For many it denotes a sort of cultural elitism that may or may not have been intended.

However,

The term for the collective Present day Philippine Island's Martial Art / Mother Art can be anything we choose to call it today. KALI... ARNIS... ESKRIMA... FMA... FFA ...etc. That's because the art is alive and evolving the way combative arts are supposed to.

No one knows what the ancients called their fighting methods. Yet some of us don't want to call it what the Spaniards called it. It is our prerogative as warriors, as modern Maharlikas. There's no shame in the terms Arnis or Eskrima. But don't shame anyone who wishes otherwise. That's what Divide and conquer tactics were all about.

Call it what you want, because prior to the Spaniards... our ancestors did.

--Rafael-------------------------------

Logged

--Rafael--"..awaken your consciousness of our past, already effaced from our memory, and to rectify what has been falsified and slandered." Jose Rizal, from his 1889 essay, ' To The Filipinos '

Thanks Sun Helmet. We can always expect you to up the ante in quality when you enlighten us. It is quite appreciated.

Crafty Dog - my apologies. I don't tolerate trolls and think they should be dealt with extreme prejudice. I can only thump them with the same weapons they attack with. I will leave you to do that with your equally fearsome and astute moderator skills.

Observation 1 - EHHHHHHHH! Got that one wrong! It's "KALIS" Illustrisimo. Get with the program or don't get it at all. Looks like you haven't been correctly informed or have not enlightened yourself wholly, either. Looks like po - tay - toe, po - ta - toe / to - may - toe, to - ma - toe applies here, buddy.

Observation 2 - When you attack the validity of somebody's name, you attack their art. Plain and simple. Looks like you are doing some attacking to me. It's like calling caviar = shit.

Observation 3 - So your deduction of an unacademic attempt is just as bogus by association. You claim to surmise from unsubstantiated information on origins and offer an alternate explanation instead. You blew it by claiming it's not an opinion so your musings could be equally full of holes like swiss cheese. Further speculation to substantiate the Spanish origins, without any proof of your own, is equally flawed and questionable in agenda, intent, and motivation. You contradict yourself by doing the same thing. Better check your foil beanie for leakage or go back to CSICOP and brush up those debunking skills. You do know you are talking about history don't you? It is about as accurate as SCUD missles being lead to the target by blind guide dogs.

observation 1: who cares if it's KALI or KALIs, you still haven't offered any proof!!!

observation 2: sorry, didn't know you were that sensitive. (and caviar does taste like shit!!!, but that?s just my proletariat taste)

observation 3: you needn't write a whole essay illustrating how much you've been hurt by this very enlightening discussion. instead you should've used all that energy offering relevant historical proofs. but you didn't or couldn?t.

luckily though, Sun Helmet, has offered a great outline of explanations (thank you by the way, Sun Helmet). i guess it's safe to assume that KALI as a title has no historical factual relevance, but instead has a modern symbolic meaning which is used to envelope the whole of filipino martial arts today, while also giving an 'indigenous' sounding/exotic roll to the tongue.

if eveyone agrees to this, then i think our discussion is finished. KALI has no historical, cultural evidence, but it has taken a modern connotation. KALI has come to be the arbirary modern word to replace the Spanish/Filipinized term, eskrima. but, some would rather just use the 'foreign' traditional eskrima, than having to create a new arbitrary word like KALI.

Quote from: Sun Helmet

Today, some Filipinos acknowledge that and refer to this Filipino survival fighting art as KALI. It does not mean it was called KALI back then, but they refer to the consolidated Filipino native arts as Kali because they do not want to call it the terms which the Spanish influenced speakers called it. It is their prerogative as modern day warriors.

if people still think they can prove KALI's historicity, please to so without personal attacks--this is an academic discussion, not a full contact sparring session (try to use that other powerful tool located inside your head).

Observation 1 - EHHHHHHHH! Got that one wrong! It's "KALIS" Illustrisimo. Get with the program or don't get it at all. Looks like you haven't been correctly informed or have not enlightened yourself wholly, either. Looks like po - tay - toe, po - ta - toe / to - may - toe, to - ma - toe applies here, buddy.

Observation 2 - When you attack the validity of somebody's name, you attack their art. Plain and simple. Looks like you are doing some attacking to me. It's like calling caviar = shit.

Observation 3 - So your deduction of an unacademic attempt is just as bogus by association. You claim to surmise from unsubstantiated information on origins and offer an alternate explanation instead. You blew it by claiming it's not an opinion so your musings could be equally full of holes like swiss cheese. Further speculation to substantiate the Spanish origins, without any proof of your own, is equally flawed and questionable in agenda, intent, and motivation. You contradict yourself by doing the same thing. Better check your foil beanie for leakage or go back to CSICOP and brush up those debunking skills. You do know you are talking about history don't you? It is about as accurate as SCUD missles being lead to the target by blind guide dogs.

observation 1: who cares if it's KALI or KALIs, you still haven't offered any proof!!!

observation 2: sorry, didn't know you were that sensitive. (and caviar does taste like shit!!!, but that?s just my proletariat taste)

observation 3: you needn't write a whole essay illustrating how much you've been hurt by this very enlightening discussion. instead you should've used all that energy offering relevant historical proofs. but you didn't or couldn?t.

luckily though, Sun Helmet, has offered a great outline of explanations (thank you by the way, Sun Helmet). i guess it's safe to assume that KALI as a title has no historical factual relevance, but instead has a modern symbolic meaning which is used to envelope the whole of filipino martial arts today, while also giving an 'indigenous' sounding/exotic roll to the tongue.

if eveyone agrees to this, then i think our discussion is finished. KALI has no historical, cultural evidence, but it has taken a modern connotation. KALI has come to be the arbirary modern word to replace the Spanish/Filipinized term, eskrima. but, some would rather just use the 'foreign' traditional eskrima, than having to create a new arbitrary word like KALI.

Quote from: Sun Helmet

Today, some Filipinos acknowledge that and refer to this Filipino survival fighting art as KALI. It does not mean it was called KALI back then, but they refer to the consolidated Filipino native arts as Kali because they do not want to call it the terms which the Spanish influenced speakers called it. It is their prerogative as modern day warriors.

if people still think they can prove KALI's historicity, please to so without personal attacks--this is an academic discussion, not a full contact sparring session (try to use that other powerful tool located inside your head).

There are various reasons for the use of the term "Kali". Some are as described by the critics of the word. And some are not.

When used in the critical perjorative way against those who have other reasons, what communicates is a personally insulting tone/intent, and demands of proof can come across with a tone of "justify yourself to me" which tends to lead to "go fornicate yourself rejoinder" and Voila! -- a conversation devoid of forward purpose.

For the record, I believe the term to have historical merit. If you don't, I have no urge to persuade you.

But some of those that don't believe the term to be historically accurate, take an additional step and cast aspersions upon those who do.

Whatever.

The simple fact is that there is very little agreement about many, if not most things in Filipino history-- yet many seem determined to believe theirs as the one true version.

I've been around a while and I've heard countless times about Filipinos saying that the term is a fraud. Of course, the next stop in the syllogism is "How dare you, a euro-american, dare to disagree?!?"

ES: "In Mindanao, "kali" was the term used, but that doesn't mean it was the only one. , , , We must remember that according to the region where you live, the terms change and others apply such as 'estocada' and 'pagkalikali' and more"

Amongst the informed, the depth and breadth of PG ES's travels and trainings in the RP are well known, and many of these people may have heard of his book "Masters of Kali, Arnis and Eskrima", an amazing collection of interviews and essays on various masters of the arts from around the RP.

You want to research? Don't ask me to do your work for you-- I've been down this road too many times and found it lead too often to exactly where some would take this thread right now-- go find and read the book yourself!

The Villabrille-Largusa people use the term Kali from a historical base. (see e.g. Tuhon Largusa in "DBMA#1: The Grandfathers Speak") and have vigorously defended its use over the internet, see e.g. various threads over the years on Ray Terry's "Eskrima Digest"). Get in touch with them if you like.

So anyway, what are we to do? Have a duel?!? Oh whoops, we can't do that-- no one challenged/disrespected PG Edgar's or GM Villabrille's use of the term to their face while they were alive. Well then, how about a trial by compurgation to solve the discrepancies amongst the sundry Filipinos with opinions on this?!? That would really settle it. Oy vey.

BTW, Currently Roland Dantes writes of indigenous use of the term in the south. Go find him in Mindanao and tell him how and why he's wrong.

Like these people we think the term is historically valid, we like it and we use it. If you don't, it is perfectly OK by me and I have no need or interest in changing your mind-- but it really is beyond me how anyone, Filipino or not, can claim to speak authoritatively on matters linguistic throughout the entirety of the Philippine Archipelago-- and into Indonesia to boot!

If you want 'proof' I ain't the man to give it. Go elsewhere. But if you tell me this proves that there is no proof, what comes across is that you are telling me that I am either a fool or a bullexcrementer and with that comes the predictable rejoinder , , ,