Reinforcing the Fairy Tale

Christians often complain that if we unbelievers don’t believe in god, then we should be quiet about it. “Why argue against god so much, if you don’t believe in him?,” they’ll quip. They are suggesting that maybe, on some Freudian level, we really DO believe, and that is why we debate and argue. (I’ll deal with this bit of sophistry later.)

Not only is this absolute nonsense, but I can prove that the exact opposite is true. And that opposite truth is that Christians are afraid to shut up about god precisely because they DON’T believe in him and they must constantly reinforce their beliefs lest they become atheists.

Think about it.

Why do Christians read their bibles daily or weekly? Don’t they already know what it says? (Probably not.)

Why do they obediently swarm to church services each week, sometimes three times a week, to hear the Word of God as preached by some stranger? Again, don’t they already know what His Word says?

Why must Christians labor all day in prayer, praise and worship, calling on His name? Does God truly need all this sycophantic toadying to stroke his ego?

And finally, why do Christians believe something “bad” will happen to them if they fail to accomplish the preceding fetishes? Wrath of god? Demonic attack? Sickness and poverty? What will happen if the good luck charm is ignored?

Christians (and other theists for that matter) remind me of the Cowardly Lion in The Wizard of Oz. While walking through the enchanted forest the Lion is panic stricken. He has just witnessed his colleague the Tin Man be punished for NOT believing in ghosts. So the Cowardly Lion rubs his tail, squeezes his eyes shut and begins to chant, “I do believe in ghosts. I do believe in ghosts. I do, I do, I do, I do, I DO! believe in ghosts!” He says this in an effort to placate the angry spirits, figuring that if he confirms his FAITH they won’t punish him for his doubts and lack of reverence.

Sound familiar?

Christians are constantly bombarded by their leaders that they MUST “continue in the faith” and “abide in Christ” lest they “fall away.” In other words, if they don’t stick with the brainwashing program, the spell will wear off AND something “bad” will happen to them. That “bad” thing is called APOSTASY. Falling away.

But what, then, does that say about faith? About your so-called strong belief in god?

As an atheist I don’t need to remind myself that there is no god. (I just get a kick out of telling OTHER people, just to watch them squirm and recoil in fear!) My atheism needs no reinforcing. It's a fait accompli. If I don't bother with any of it, then I WON'T believe.

And THAT is just the point that the preacher makes when he warns people to “abide in Christ.” People who don’t think about God, people who don’t read their bibles, people who don’t seek fellowship, people who don’t pray, people who don’t worship, people who don’t have their faith under-girded and have their spiritual batteries recharged WILL become unbelievers! They will recognize that this God fetish isn’t necessary for their lives. God will fade into non-existence, relegated to the shadows of mythology, along with Zeus and Hercules, where they all belong.

So each week these Christians run around clutching their bibles and crosses, with their eyes shut tight, heads bowed, hands lifted to heaven, chanting to themselves, “I do believe in god, I do believe in god, I do, I do, I do, I do, I DO believe in GOD!” Failure to do so is to risk unbelief and even retribution from this spiritual terrorist.

And then they have the nerve to question why WE unbelievers talk about god “so much”?

It is to laugh. If a Christian’s belief is SO strong, then why the panic to be constantly reminded that their God is real? Why can’t they simply let it go? Just believe and get on with their lives. Why must Christians constantly pray, preach, and worship? What are they afraid of? Is “God” that much of a tyrant and egomaniac that he must be acknowledged in all things, and at all times, lest he be angered and smite you? (The answer is “yes”, BTW. I’ve read the bible. I’ve heard the sermons. “God” gets angry if you don’t lick his feet.)

Or could it be that YOU must constantly fool yourself into believing something that is an obvious lie?

Again, the answer is a resounding “yes”. Failure to reinforce the fairy tale is to risk apostasy and atheism. A fate “worse than death” for the gullible sheep of god.

Once again, I’m SO glad I managed to escape that insane asylum called Religion. What a sorry way to live.

Finally, I’d like to address the opening barb that got me to thinking about all of this. To wit: “Why do we unbelievers talk about god if we don’t believe in him?”

I can think of two good reasons. (There may be more, but these are the best.)

One, if we remained silent, then you theists would claim that we didn’t exist. By our silence you would be able to make the case that non-believers either are a myth, or that we are a statistical anomaly, OR that our polite silence is our tacit admission that we don’t have a problem with god. We complain “so much” to make our voices heard. We’re NOT arguing against “god”, but against god-believers and their delusions. To remain silent is to yield the field of battle to our opponents. To remain silent is a tacit admission that we have no argument in the theater of ideas, and therefore we concede defeat to the theists. And I, for one, refuse to give them so easy a victory.

And Two, we speak and write against god-belief to provide hope for those people struggling alone with their unbelief. The life of an unbeliever is lonely and sometimes dangerous. We find ourselves awash in a sea of religious nitwits. People who consider US “deluded” because we refuse to blindly believe in their delusion. (Can you say “ironic”?) Often times we unbelievers think that we are the Last Sane Person on the planet, and we sink into despair and loneliness. That is until we find an internet web site filled with like-minded unbelievers who have the same problems with religion. We read articles and books that confirm what we’ve always believed was wrong with religion, and we take comfort in this. Now we know that we aren’t alone. Now we know that there is nothing “wrong” with us. Others are on this journey with us.

And THAT is why we “complain so much” about god. We have an obligation, both private and public, to articulate our unbelief. We dare not remain silent. We have a duty to put the religious world on notice – “Here there be unbelievers!”

Understand something. Religious people will ALWAYS try to intimidate or trick the unbeliever into maintaining a revered and “respectful” silence about his/her unbelief. It is so much easier to spread and foster the religious lie if there is NO ONE to speak out against it. If no one says, “Hey! The Emperor hasn’t got on any clothes!,” then everyone will just keep pretending and lying to themselves and each other. The make believe will NEVER end. And THAT is why we speak.

So get used to it, Christians. We aren’t shutting up and we aren’t going away. Contrary to the now trendy, comedic barb, you are NOT the Borg® and resistance is NOT useless. The more we talk about this, the more it will become self-evident that god-belief is delusional. And then one day religious people will become too embarrassed to speak of their shameful and silly beliefs in mixed company. Finally, they’ll keep such strange beliefs to themselves, like one politely withholds a fart until they’re alone.

And the more we speak against religion today, the sooner that happy day of tomorrow will arrive.

68 comments:

Great post. And it is so true. Back when I first began to doubt the excistance of god, I was told to "doubt the doubt", and not to let satan drag me down to disbelief. Isn't it sad most xians are so afraid of people questioning and doubting? At one point, I was literelly afraid to doubt and question, afraid that I might fall away. So what good is an idea, philosophy, or political agenda that cannot stand scrutney?

My aim has never been to de-convert xians from thier faith, but the more brainwashed that I see xians are, and the more that fundys come here and preach what they cannot prove, the more I want to go on an un-holy cruisade to rid the world of the evil christ cult. Who's with me?

Yeah, one can tell a lot about someone else's thought processes by what they think YOURS are...

Christians are the ones who need the constant reinforcement by fellow freakers to support their delusion. That's one of the reasons I think this site and others like it are a great halfway house for those seeking to break free of that mentality. They're used to a support group stumping for Jesus, they need a support group supporting reality, which they find here.

Ever notice how they always insist that not only do they believe, but that you must also believe? The ones who don't go straight to anger exhibit a sick desperation to get you to agree with them, as if the very existance of non-believers is dangerous to their mental house of cards. They're not concerned about the state of your soul, they're concerned with supporting their own delusion.

Christians get the same advice as recovering alchoholics. They're not supposed to expose themselves to the secular world to resist the temptation to wake up just as alchoholics are encouraged to get new friends that don't drink.

Anyone want to help me put together a 12 step progam for jesus freaks? :D

I am writing to remark on an irony that I observed in your argument, lest it lead atheistic brothers 'astray'. You say that you feel alone as atheists until, "we find an internet web site filled with like-minded unbelievers who have the same problems with religion. We read articles and books that confirm what we’ve always believed was wrong with religion, and we take comfort in this. Now we know that we aren’t alone. Now we know that there is nothing “wrong” with us. Others are on this journey with us."

This seems to be the same desperate need for the assurance of a group that you are criticizing in 'Christians' (whatever a Chrstian is). This also seems to make 'atheism', as some group holding a belief about the world, very 'religious'. I think it an outrageous claim that if any atheist argues against God than that atheist must believe in God. I think it equally outrageous that if a theist argues for god he must not believe in him. As you equitably argue, an atheist is allowed to stand up for what is "true" and not be automatically accused of secret theism, or even secret doubts. Likewise so might a theist stand up for what is "true", and not be accused of secret atheism. It very well may be that any given person argues so often for their side because they doubt, but this is not necessarily so.

Another point I wanted to address in your essay is about the exhortations to prayer that are so common in churches. This seems to be an indication of the difficulty of believing, which I will not say recommends the belief to our reason or recommends the belief against our reason. However, I think most Christians will admit that it is more "natural", in its Latin sense of birth, for a man not to belive in the 'Christian God', for men don't, from the moment of their birth, believe in this god, but they come to believe in him through some other means.

First, great post Tyrone. I agree with your ideas completely. I also feel we must speak out or change will never happen.Lupis, count me in on the 12 step program. I am not familiar with the AA's program but we could certainly mimic it, much like the "10 Reasons Beer is Better Than Jesus" parody of the 10 commandments.

I get a kick out of telling other people there is no god,just to watch them squirm and recoil in fear. Maybe we can return the favor later and watch you squirm and recoil in another way. Well on your way of proving that Jehovah-when He deals with His enemies-is an mean,lean,wreaking machine.

"Well on your way of proving that Jehovah-when He deals with His enemies-is an mean,lean,wreaking machine."

Why Jehovah?? There are hundred of other ancient dieties, all with the same lack of reasonable proof for thier existance. So why not say "Odin is going to kick your ass!" or "Thor is a mean machine..whatever?"

Actually, I was serious, heh. Slowly doing the groundwork on some kind of structured therapy to assist christians in overcoming their addiction to fantasy. When even the mental health industry excludes religion from its official definitions of "delusion," it's time for someone to step in...

Anyone who has thoughts towards this goal, feel free to contact me via my screen name at yahoo dot com, or leave a message on my blog that I don't use, lol

What a great fucking post !!!!!! One of the best I have ever read. We as atheists do need to be seen and heard. We have to make damn sure our great nation doesn't turn into a Christian Iraq ruled by biblical law. I am so glad sites like these do exist because if they didn't I would still be faking like I believed in God, and wondering why I have never felt the love. I now know why my subconcious mind never bought into the bullshit. I tried so hard to become a religous guy many times in my life, but my inner bullshit detector was always going off. It has been interesting telling people that I no longer believe in God/Jesus. I am very respectful when I express my beliefs, but I really do enjoy the conversations. I can gaurentee I've made a few people think. I had a Jahovah's Witness come to my door and I was so darn happy to let him in. Of course when I told him I was a flaming atheist, he really didn't want to talk. I was ready for some fun friendly debate, and he went bye-bye.

I agree that atheists need to put themselves out there and get some discussion going. I also think that it would be imprudent to put Christians on the defensive because as we all know, deluded people will cling to their delusion as if their life depends on it. Threaten that and you're asking for trouble. They get angry, they get violent, they send their kids to Jesus camp!

Christians have enough cognitive dissonance to deal with in everyday life nowadays that's making them cranky and militant. Things like the fact that rape and abortion have steadily been declining even though access to birth control and pornography have steadily risen. They hate that so much, they make up their own statistics! Don't even get them started on healthy, happy, well adjusted kids being raised by gay/lesbian couples, because 'that's not possible.'

I guess all I'm saying is engage in intelligent discourse (when you can) but don't go pokin' the hornet's nest with a stick!

Off topic, I know - but I found this shlock while cruisin' the net. Haha:http://www.leaderu.com/truth/1truth11.html"Does not the burden of proof then fall on the shoulders of the skeptic? Yes. And the skeptic is the first to admit this-or at least to exemplify it. "

Do you know why people are able to keep reinforcing their little religitard fairytales? Because of sites like these:

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/b_proof.shtml

So long as certain sects of humanity are capable of supressing logical reasoning skills in favour of smelly bullshit-lower-brain-function-bowel-movement-induced reasoning like 'faith', the rest of us will continue to have to deal with the fairytale-drunkedness of these religious halfwits well into the future. Damnit. Argh! -Wes.

Atheists, agnostics, and other secularists cannot afford to keep silent. Our future - even our present - is as much at stake as it is for any adherent of any faith. Islamists happily destroy themselves to take as many lives as possible while Orthodox Jews provoke them. Evangelical Christians busy themselves with promoting a theocratic form of government while actively inhibiting the advancement of science by using politics, and promoting the spread of AIDS because they think God prefers that to using a condom.

All of these people are, in a word, deranged.

That's why I've committed myself to challenging each and every religious statement made in my presence. Those desiring spirituality needn't look to a god or books authored between 600 to 4000 years ago. Those who do pose a grave threat to the rest of us.

I think my favorite Bible verse is 1 Thessalonians 5:21. In the KJV it's "Prove everything; hold fast that which is good." hm. prove everything. which means ask a LOT of questions, all that you can come up with. not much is outside the ambit of "everything". including all the sorrowful violent repercussions of a belief system that says god sends small children to hell for all eternity because he (Yes, he.) decided long ago in his infinite mercy to torture them. forever. amen.

I get a kick out of telling other people there is no god,just to watch them squirm and recoil in fear. Maybe we can return the favor later and watch you squirm and recoil in another way. Well on your way of proving that Jehovah-when He deals with His enemies-is an mean,lean,wreaking machine. "

So you ADMIT that your god is an ashole? That he is NOT benign? That he is worse than hitler?

Now, there is a verry small sect that claim that, not only were there dinosaurs in the Garden of Eden, but they survived the flood, and STILL EXIST!

To convince me of THAT would require nothing less than seeing a real live dinosaur. This same sect also claims that "The fossil record does not support evolution". This remionds me of an episode of futurama;

Zapp; "Here we are, trapped on an uncharted planet"Kiff; "It is NOT uncharted. You LOST the chart."

The reason they haven't seen evidence of evolution in the follil record is that they never bothered to pick up a shovel, or check the findings of those who have.

Oh, I just checked the w4ebsight Anonymous mentioned. There's a page about evlution, and a section about how the theory got started. Here's the paragraph I just read;

"How Did the Theory Start?Summarized briefly, Charles Darwin studied wildlife while on a voyage and he noticed the variation in the appearance of the individual animals. He guessed that this variation, given enough time, would allow these animals to change to the point that they looked different. This was not a surprising discovery, by the way. Anyone can examine different varieties of roses or cats to see this. This process of changing an organism’s appearance through a series of small changes is correctly called “microevolution” (with an “i”) and is not what we are referring to when we write “the theory of evolution” on this page. After a series of microevolutionary changes, a frog may be larger or changed in color, but it is still a frog—not a fish or a lizard."

It's like saying that an increase in popularity of a product may allow a small businessman who makes it to make afew extentions to his workshop or hire an assistant, but never imagineing that over a cenuty or the same process can lead a company from one guy in his garage to a multi-national corporation.

Coke started with one chemist in his basement who didn't know much about marketing. Disney started as one guy making silent cartoons.

Which brings up another kind of evolution actually; if you buy or rent the "Cindarella" DVD, there's a special feature of a much earlier version of "Cindarella, also made by Disney, but it's black-and-white, badly drawn, silent, the animation is complete crap, and the jokes are just plain silly. Did Disney's animators SUDDENLY become geniouses, did Walt suddenly ENDOW them with skill? no, the LEARNED how to animate gradually, they did it allot, they gradually got better, and EVENTUALLY you go from "Steamboat Willie" cartoons to "Snow White".

Anyway, the article goes on and on about how, suposedly, "microevolution" and "macroevolution" are two different things. If I uncerstand their logic (and I don't), "Microevolution" is one gene at a time, and "macroevolution" is the entire gene structure at once, and evolution from Cromagnon Man to Homo Sapien can only occur by Macroevolution, rather than Microevolution over a long period of time.

Tyrone is absolutely right, non-believers should make themselves heard. Here in the US the separation of church and state (along with the rest of the Constitution) is under attack by the right wing and their fundamentalist Christian allies. If they succeed we would be on our way to a theocracy (a tried and true way to control the population,) and atheists and agnostics would be 2nd class citizens or worse. Religion is anti-democratic, it promotes blind obedience to a "king," and we are seeing more and more of this, with leaders portrayed as "chosen by God," while conducting an idiotic holy war.

Anonymous, did you even bother to read the article here? We non-Christians would LOVE to "be silent" about god, but we dare not. What kind of life would there be to "enjoy" if religious fascists create yet another theocracy and rob us of our freedom to "enjoy life"? And all because we "shut up" about it. Get a clue. "Freedom isn't free."

Why don't we shut up about God? Why doesn't Wynston Smith shut up about Big Brother? (That's a good book, by the way.)

Anyay, about what I was saying before, (sorry about how long that was) this idea about "microevolution" is a very convenient one. It allows Christians to explain how different races can be descended from Adam and Eve, or how all the animals on the planet can fit on a boat 90 meters long (unless Noah had forearms bigger than Popeye) yet, at the same time, still claiming that evolution doesn't happen by claiming that "Macroevolution" is the only explanation for anything that doesn't fit the bible stories.

Their definition? "Microevolution" is when a monkey gives birth to a slightly larger monkey. "macroevolution" is when a pygmy marmoset gives birth to Cro magnon Man.

Although I have to admit, I do get some personal fulfillment out of seeing fundies faces sink to the ground when I show them how foolish their beliefs are, I guess no one really wants to admit that they were wrong and now they feel naked without a Jesus to wrap themselves up in.

I have to agree that this is a great post. Twincats: I don't think I've read a single post of yours where you do not make reference to "cognitive dissonance". Can you please explain to an intellectually challenged fella like me what this means? I googled it but I still like to see your response. Thanks.

I'm not Twincats, but I'd like to take a stab at dumbing down "cognative dissonance." It's when what you THINK is "true" comes into conflict with evidence to the contrary, and you attempt to maintain your belief in spite of this conflicting evidence.

The best example is believing that "God is love" in spite of all the scriptural evidence that proves "God" is an amoral monster worse than Hitler and Stalin. Rather than concede the point that God cannot be love, the person will deny what his/her mind sees in the evidence. Thus we now have "dissonance" in the cognative thought process due to a refusal to believe what the brain sees.

We realy talk so much about it? For every book, movie, tv documentary or whatever you see defending atheism, you see one hundred praising the lord. I only talk about my disbelief when I'm asked or other people in the table express his beliefs. If you say "God saved me", I say "sorry, I´m an atheist, tell this BS to someone else" This is talk too much about it? If they can't respectfully shut-up about their belief, Why should I mantain a respectful silence about my disbelief? And they really never shut-up.

"Everybody ready to convert to Islam. That is going to be your fate,absent Christianty. Allah Akbar." Please explain that one, I did activly study islam with the thought of converting, But am now a happy atheist, I respect the achievments of islmic schollars, and the efforts of the few surviving islmic leaders. but being free from christianity does not require my converting to islam, it never has and never will. indeed with the end of the christian death cult, islam will no longer have either a reason to be, or an enemy to defnd against, Islam will fade on its own

You know what? There could have been a man called Jesus, but what they wrote down is "what they wanted to believe."

They may have believed Mary was a virgin!

Jesus may have believed he was God!

Jesus may have been crucified. (murdered)

They may have believed he was sent to heaven.

What they belived over 2000 years ago, has never been verified by anyone, it's their belief that they wanted to believe.

If that is the best this wise all knowing God can do is let people believe based on presumption on what people who lived over 2000 years ago wanted to believe, just like today, the only proof that anyone has is their wanting to believe, what they want to believe.

Interesting views fom everyone here. I am a Catholic and a far cry from any religious extremist as they do not represent the true meaning of having fatih. Most christians use the teachings of the bible to try and live a better life. I dont buy into the spreading of the word by suggesting doom to those who do not follow.

The issue of beleiving in god is personal to anyone and is at he very least a good explanation for one's existance. so beleif in something is good however ramming it down someones throat is bad.

Extremism sucks, but to down christans is a sorry excuse for your own confusion.

Islam is spreading, it already has a foothold in Europe. France and Spain especially. France is struggling with multiculturalism 9riots this year). Spain cannot cope with its dwindling birth rate hence the influx of north african immigrants (muslims) to care for the old, take loe paid jobs etc. This means at local government level, muslim they are seeing large voting turnout as muslims vote in force, almost 100%. Soon it will happen at state level and then national level. It could be as soon as 20yrs. With the intoduction of Turkey and Bosnia to the EU, Islamic population is flourishing and with their birthrate of 4.7 kids per family compared to the westerners 1.7, it doesnt take einstein to do the math.

Islm is the fastes growing religion in the USA. Why? Islam hates the western world. they plan to conquor not with bombs but by population. This has been a theory for 30 years and it is working. look at kashmir....muslim population has grown 4x faster than hindu. now they are fighting for it to be a muslim state.

well if you think about it, the whole issue of existense is a confusing subject. some beleive in god as an explanation. Your kind doensnt beleive in god and has another explanation, which to other can be seen as a state of confusion. If you have all the answers, pray tell, oh un-confused one!

"I am a Catholic and a far cry from any religious extremist as they do not represent the true meaning of having faith"

Anon, you are pointing out one of the fundamental problems with Christianity and religion in general, which is that it is highly arbitrary and non-verifiable. You believe your denomination is the right one, a born-again type would say you aren't a real Christian because you haven't been "saved," and we have something like 1500 denominations, all believing they are right. So you can pretty much believe in whatever you want, ranging from an aloof spirit that might watch our world but does nothing to a fire and brimstone God that constantly intervenes in human affairs and tortures non-believers for all eternity (pretty confusing, wouldn't you say?) There is no way to test any religious claims, any "proof" will only be "revealed" after one is dead, which is very convenient for scammers and con men. Its one thing to believe in something for which you have no proof (apart from a highly revised 2000 year old text and some questionable anecdotal evidence,) and quite another to accept facts that can be tested and verified.

As an ex-catholic, I would like to know which god started creation?Your book says let US create man in OUR image. Also, did this god create man before or after the animals. The bible is not very clear in its creation story

"well if you think about it, the whole issue of existense is a confusing subject. some beleive in god as an explanation. Your kind doensnt beleive in god and has another explanation, which to other can be seen as a state of confusion. If you have all the answers, pray tell, oh un-confused one!"

Hmmmm, let's see.....there's certainly no "confusion" as to what "kind" defends their belief with bigoted zeal.lol

Mr/Mrs. Fundonymous, the Atheist/Agnostic position---a position of neutrality---says NOTHING about "having all the answers". As a matter of fact, for our "kind" to say "we're waiting on the evidence" is much less of a cock-sure conviction than those who say "God did it!" Saying that "God" did something only adds MORE confusion, because thus far, God has yet to even be objectively defined, let alone, shown to exist.

BTW, you don't believe Allah is responsible for your existance, do you? No, because you have concluded that Allah doesn't exist. But of course, if Allah swooped down here and made his existance undeniably known, you'd be an idiot to not believe from that point on, wouldn't you? Welp, the same holds true for our "kind" and your Yahweh. We'll believe it WHEN WE SEE THE EVIDENCE....until then, we have no belief in such a being, just like you have no belief in Allah.

Thank you for clearly demonstrating one of the most serious dangers of religious thought. It's precisely that type of condescending, sanctimonious attitude that helps the believer to view those not sharing his belief as less than human, and therefore worthy of death.

As long as there are people like you running around there will continue to be hatred, intolerance, and bloodshed in the name of imaginary friends in the sky.

I was proud in your choice of words, "waiting for the evidence." The label ex-christian means we used to have faith but don't any more. The term atheist (if you're an atheist ex-christian) means you have no belief in God. Not everybody at this site is dogmatically set on the idea "there is no god." I just prefer to say I remain unconvinced -- unconvinced that there is a god, and unconvinced that religion and faith result in anything worthwhile.

Thank God for "Atheist", the non-word. How can you NOT believe in something that doesn't exist? From the Wizard Of Oz, the lines are: "I do believe in Spooks! I do believe in Spooks! I do, I do, I do, I do, I do, I do believe in Spooks!" Not ghosts. Other than that nit-picking, it's a great post.

To "Real Deal" Anonymous: Um... hate to break this to you, but most of the regulars on this site know an extraordinary amount about Christianity. We've got folks here who've read the Bible cover to cover, more than once. People who devoted decades of their lives to ministry.

They learned it. They lived it. And they walked away from it anyway, because the "real deal" wasn't real enough to sustain the illusion.

"Often times we unbelievers think that we are the Last Sane Person on the planet, and we sink into despair and loneliness. That is until we find an internet web site filled with like-minded unbelievers who have the same problems with religion."

You must be the atheist messiah. WOW. That's awesome. People come to you and you give them the truth. You give them healing. And they get to lick your boots too.

I don't agree with your assessment that Christians attend church and pray just to convince themselves of the "lie". I go to church because I get something out of it. I never feel obligated. I read my bible because I find it uplifting, not because I am afraid of what will happen if I don't. And I can't think of another Christian who is as you described.

Be honest with yourself and others about this website; this "oasis in the wasteland of religious oppression". It is not about "encouraging those who have decided to leave religion behind", it is about slander and defamation. And you know it. Posting all those articles about Christians doing wrong serves no purpose. A pastor steals money from the offering therefore Christianity is bunk and God doesn't exist? Is that how it works? If I read an article about an atheist commiting a crime does that prove atheism is wrong, and thereby God does exist?

Thanks for the opportunity to post here and good luck in your endeavors.

First off, I didn't write this piece, although I did make it into a podcast.

Secondly, the reason I post the occasional article about pastors involved in criminal activity is to counter the Christian argument that a holy ghost is living inside Christians, magically changing them into something wonderful. Pastors, Christians, atheists, and every other artificial title under which people rally, have good people and bad people in the ranks. That's not the point. The point is that there is no MAGIC going on in the Christian ranks. Get it?

Slander and defamation would mean I am lying about what these pastors have done. Well, all I am doing is posting a fraction of the articles that come to me -- articles from reputable media outlets. And, I don't generally make a single comment one way or the other. It's just news, kid.

Now, as to your other complaints about the article, please address the author.

John Doe wroteI go to church because I get something out of it. I never feel obligated. I read my bible because I find it uplifting, not because I am afraid of what will happen if I don't...---Doe, John, (aka just another blind xtian),

I find it most interesting that you are uplifted by reading your bible.

I'm not sure how that's possible, as I find it boring (zzzz), depressing, cruel, inhumane, filled with magical myths and grand brainwashing efforts to make a person feel they are worthless and filled with evil sin.Doesn't sound like any of those qualities would be considered "uplifting".

So I have to wonder what is that 'something' that you get out of going to church?

Now if you like the boring hymns, I guess that might be an attraction to some, but they sure put me to sleep every time.Perhaps your church plays that special spiritual music, where the music itself calls to god and reels him in, like a fish on the line.

No, it must be the great social atmosphere that churches have, where everyone kneels/sits and stands-around (repeat that, like shampoo) sharing their own customized version of the god delusion with each other. Yeah, I sure do miss those days.....NOT!!!

Standing on a long line at the Department of Motor Vehicles is surely 100 times more exciting than being in a church. At the very least, the DMV doesn't require you to 'kneel' as often.

ATF (Who also thinks folks go to church, so other believers can help convince them that this mythical god is actually genuine)

Wow there are so many comments on this thread! Well, if anything, you helped me understand where agnostics & atheists are coming from. I am a christian and I still do believe in God and go to church every Sunday and trying to get there every Wednesday night. So, to reply - the reason that we go to church so much and pray so much can only be explained like this... Christianity for me isn't a religion. It's a personal relationship with God. Honestly. And just like any earthly relationship, if you don't talk to someone or visit them, you become separated. There is no relationship. It's the same with my relationship with God. I pray to Him, I wait on Him, I go to church to learn more about Him. I read the bible every day b/c I believe that God's word is living. Every time I read it I see something different that reaches me in a different way. Just like if you were to watch a movie several times - you start to notice things that you didn't see the first time. Anyway, that's the best that I can explain it and I hope it helps you understand where I'm coming from and why we do those things. Anyway, I just figured I' explain those few things. I hope you're all having a great day and I'm sorry for anyone who's had a bad experience with a pushy and easily offended christian. Unfortunately we're all still him and still make mistakes. Life is a learning process. Well, i think I'm done now. Thanks for the opportunity to express the above. Have a great day.

off topic - To clarify on a typo in my previous post I meant to type "We are all still HUMAN and still make mistakes."

ATF - I could surely go into detail about God and my relationship with Him and what it's all about, but if I do that, I wonder if the only responses I receive will be full of sarcasm and/or anger. If you truly want answers, I'll do my best to give them to you and pray that you find the information you're looking for. Same for all of you. If you're just looking for a good fight, let me know, b/c that's certainly not what I'm looking for.

Kimmi, if you're happy with your beliefs this is definitely not a good site for you.

We have walked away from Christianity and are not intending to go back. If you expect us to be impressed by your subjective experiences of faith, you will be disabused of that notion in rather short order.

And yes, there is a lot of anger here. This site exists to give us an outlet for the rage we feel when people say things like...

"If you truly want answers, I'll do my best to give them to you..."

Sorry, that comes across as pure arrogance on your part. You think *you* have the answers that somehow escaped *our* notice? Please go away.

Kimmi...I could surely go into detail about God and my relationship with Him and what it's all about...

Yes, yes, I'm sure you could, however, that would be a waste of everyone's time(including your own), because whether you know it, or not/whether you accept it, or not, we, at one time, believed Christianity to be the Universal Truth. And guess what?...we believed it for many, if not all, of the same reasons you believe it right this second. In other words, we know, "what it's all about". We simply changed our minds. And regarding this "relationship"---the ones that virtually all Christians purport to have---we now realize it was one-way, which was attributed, largely, to self-deception.

Kimmi......I wonder if the only responses I receive will be full of sarcasm and/or anger.

They might; they might not. Relevance?

Kimmi...If you truly want answers, I'll do my best to give them to you and pray that you find the information you're looking for.

What you mean to say, is you'll do your best to give us your opinion, yes? Yes. And BTW, we don't need more "information"; we need evidence, of the objective type.

As for your "prayers"--all of the ritualistic chanting in the world isn't going make such evidence appear, nor will it allow us to repeat the mistake of accepting something on "Faith", ever again. "Faith" is good, for like, cheering for your favorite baseball team---it isn't good for accepting that a bunch of uneducated fisherman were given all the answers to life's greatest questions by the Creator of the Universe, some 2000 years ago. 'Just giving you the heads-up.

Kimmi...If you're just looking for a good fight, let me know, b/c that's certainly not what I'm looking for.