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Michael Dunn pulls into a gas station.
Jordan Davis and his friends are in an SUV playing music, rather loudly.
Dunn asks the young adults in the SUV to lower their music.
Music is lowered.
Statements such as, "That mutha effer can't tell us to lower our music!" are said and the music is put on again, this time louder.
Dunn thinks he sees the barrel of a shotgun.
He takes his gun out of glove compartment.
He might have loaded it. I've read conflicting reports.
He shoots 8 or 9 times into the SUV.
Dunn's girlfriend returns from the store, gets in the car and they leave.

How about the simple course of action: Mind your own business, wait it out and deal with the music and leave!

How about the simple course of action: Mind your own business, wait it out and deal with the music and leave!

Why?

__________________"Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein

Stand your ground laws were invented to help angry conservative white men get away with killing black people. Who didn't know this?

I didn't. I thought they were made so a New York or California homeowner (and others)(even apartment renters) did not have to run away from their homes, but could eliminate home invading scum without fear of having some DA jackoff try to have them arrested and tried and (for the DA noted) convicted by carefully picked jurors. The case here does not sound like SYG - unless one or more weapons are pointed at you, you do not get to fire at innocents (note, if one is, and the crowd it is being pointed from is dense, you are covered - theough if you fire a lot of shots, you just might become a felon - why I only practice center mass, center head and center gut (in case I am REALLY POed).

__________________There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Michael Dunn pulls into a gas station.
Jordan Davis and his friends are in an SUV playing music, rather loudly.
Dunn asks the young adults in the SUV to lower their music.
Music is lowered.
Statements such as, "That mutha effer can't tell us to lower our music!" are said and the music is put on again, this time louder.
Dunn thinks he sees the barrel of a shotgun.
He takes his gun out of glove compartment.
He might have loaded it. I've read conflicting reports.
He shoots 8 or 9 times into the SUV.
Dunn's girlfriend returns from the store, gets in the car and they leave.

How about the simple course of action: Mind your own business, wait it out and deal with the music and leave!

^bingo^ there are very few situations that a individual law abiding citizen needs to stick their nose into in a public place, and loud music sure ain't one of them.

How many often do people get shot when the question "could you turn that music down" is asked?

__________________"Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein

Stand your ground laws were invented to help angry conservative white men get away with killing black people. Who didn't know this?

John H. Rutherford, apparently.

__________________I can't believe that having said what I said was interpreted as having been what I said when I said it, because I said it where I said it, when I said it, and who I said it to. Only in America!

I guess I should rephrase: Did they stay there after the shooting until police arrived, or did they "peel-out" and flee the scene. Which is a perfectly valid response to being shot at multiple times, but a search afterwards doesn't prove much.

I hadn't seen anything about him thinking they might be in a gang at that point. The second he came out with that it became racist. Although perhaps he thinks all young people are in gangs. Or he lost his temper and is trying to fling enough mud around to make himself look better/like the victim.

I wasn't referring to gangs. The facts of life in the US are lots of people seeing 4 black teens in a car would be intimidated to some extent.

I don't know if that is the case or not. I was objecting to a hand wave dismissal that racism played a part.

Frankly, I think it is unjustifiable to shoot someone that plays their music so loud that it annoys others, unless it is clear that the person playing the music is doing it with the intent to annoy.

If the person that is playing the music so loud it annoys is doing it intentionally AND is wearing their pants so low that the bottom of their ass shows, it is justifiable to set them on fire (the person, not the pants).

Last I checked, playing loud music is not a death penalty offense.

__________________
“That’s what I do. I drink, and I know things” Tyrion Lannister, Game of Thrones

Sounds to me like he wanted to give the gang members a taste of their own medicine and thought he'd get away with it. Even if he fled the scene, he had to know there was a possibility that he had hit someone.

How does firing a loaded gun at vehicle whose occupants are playing loud music even equate? What kind of medicine?

__________________
“That’s what I do. I drink, and I know things” Tyrion Lannister, Game of Thrones

Yep. I am not saying he is guilty, just that the action as reported looks suspect. There is a difference in my mind between accusing somebody, and assessing the reported action by journalist. And for you ?

Yep. I am not saying he is guilty, just that the action as reported looks suspect. There is a difference in my mind between accusing somebody, and assessing the reported action by journalist. And for you ?

He did said "bordering on, " not quite violence. I tend to agree, it depends on the volume, if it's loud enough that my ribcage is vibrating and I start to feel nauseous, and/or my rearview mirror is vibrating too much to be useful, etc. I'd consider that more "violent" than, say, a shove to get out of the way on the sidewalk.

He did said "bordering on, " not quite violence. I tend to agree, it depends on the volume, if it's loud enough that my ribcage is vibrating and I start to feel nauseous, and/or my rearview mirror is vibrating too much to be useful, etc. I'd consider that more "violent" than, say, a shove to get out of the way on the sidewalk.

If you regularly played music that loud over the garden fence here in England a court would probably issue a restraining order at the suit of the neighbour (in private nuisance) and the local authority would also be likely to take a hand upon complaint being made. Why you get a free pass when out and about in the car is anyone's guess. Still pumping their SUV full of bullets does seem slightly over the top.

Here's another thing. All you gun-toting Americans are presumably pretty skilful with those weapons of yours, trained and such. If you want to make a point by firing into the vehicle without hurting anyone, how hard would that be? I mean, I think even I could manage that. A few shots through the bonnet, shred a couple of tyres, blow the aerial off etc. How come he actually killed a guy, supposedly without meaning to?

If you regularly played music that loud over the garden fence here in England a court would probably issue a restraining order at the suit of the neighbour (in private nuisance) and the local authority would also be likely to take a hand upon complaint being made. Why you get a free pass when out and about in the car is anyone's guess. Still pumping their SUV full of bullets does seem slightly over the top.

Here's another thing. All you gun-toting Americans are presumably pretty skilful with those weapons of yours, trained and such. If you want to make a point by firing into the vehicle without hurting anyone, how hard would that be? I mean, I think even I could manage that. A few shots through the bonnet, shred a couple of tyres, blow the aerial off etc. How come he actually killed a guy, supposedly without meaning to?

As to the proficiency, that depends on who you ask. If you ask a competitive shooter, he/she will probably tell you that for the average gun owner a pistol is a fairly inaccurate weapon. Ask some of the chest-thumpers on forums (this one included) and they can shoot off the proboscis of a mosquito at two hundred meters,... blindfolded,... in a tornado,...

As to the noise thing,... You guys need to live in Asia. Noise is a part of the culture here. Think of their ideas of celebrating... gongs, noise-makers, fireworks, drums.... The noise is to chase the spirits away.

When I want to tear my hair out because I can hear a thumping base line from a block away, my wife doesn't even notice it. When she drives up late, I can sometimes hear the car radio even when I'm inside with the TV on. When I ask her to think of the neighbors (all of whom are behind unlighted windows so already asleep), she looks at me like I'm from Pluto.

On any weekend evening, from dusk 'til well after midnight, we'll have parties full of teens and young adults on the Baht Bus - that's a converted large pickup truck that seats about eight, but which you can cram 20 onto if you hang them off the sides and back. The most popular Baht Bus to rent is the one with the biggest speakers, so the whole bus drances (drive + dance) through the streets and if you get stuck in a traffic jam or on a slow street adjacent to one, you can have all that music in your face for an hour. 20 to 24 idiotic and drunken teenagers on a Baht Bus can probably seem pretty threatening. Yet, no one I know of here has ever shot anyone over the noise.

__________________Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele
"Chicken **** Poster!"
Help! We're being attacked by sea lions!

As to the proficiency, that depends on who you ask. If you ask a competitive shooter, he/she will probably tell you that for the average gun owner a pistol is a fairly inaccurate weapon. Ask some of the chest-thumpers on forums (this one included) and they can shoot off the proboscis of a mosquito at two hundred meters,... blindfolded,... in a tornado,...

As to the noise thing,... You guys need to live in Asia. Noise is a part of the culture here. Think of their ideas of celebrating... gongs, noise-makers, fireworks, drums.... The noise is to chase the spirits away.

When I want to tear my hair out because I can hear a thumping base line from a block away, my wife doesn't even notice it. When she drives up late, I can sometimes hear the car radio even when I'm inside with the TV on. When I ask her to think of the neighbors (all of whom are behind unlighted windows so already asleep), she looks at me like I'm from Pluto.

On any weekend evening, from dusk 'til well after midnight, we'll have parties full of teens and young adults on the Baht Bus - that's a converted large pickup truck that seats about eight, but which you can cram 20 onto if you hang them off the sides and back. The most popular Baht Bus to rent is the one with the biggest speakers, so the whole bus drances (drive + dance) through the streets and if you get stuck in a traffic jam or on a slow street adjacent to one, you can have all that music in your face for an hour. 20 to 24 idiotic and drunken teenagers on a Baht Bus can probably seem pretty threatening. Yet, no one I know of here has ever shot anyone over the noise.

You are in a public space. There are no rules for loud music at a convenience store unless the management makes them. All the guy had to do was get leave the store and take his business elsewhere.

Dunn's story is full of ****. He appears to be the aggressor.

Most cities have noise ordinances.

__________________"Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein

Is there a bag limit on noisemakers in your state? I know they tried to set a national limit on jaywalkers, but they couldn't get it ratified. I'm not sure about noisemakers, though.

No, we do no bag limit hunts for coyotes (not the human type). Shooting people because they're jerks remains illegal. But thanks for the straw.

__________________"Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein

It's a strange coincidence that a Tampa ordinance about loud music coming from cars is being challenged in the state Supreme Court. As far as I can find out no final ruling has been issued. Here's some background:http://www.tampabay.com/news/publics...cle1169129.ece

It's a strange coincidence that a Tampa ordinance about loud music coming from cars is being challenged in the state Supreme Court. As far as I can find out no final ruling has been issued. Here's some background:http://www.tampabay.com/news/publics...cle1169129.ece

Catalano was listening to a Justin Timberlake song when he was pulled over, so the officer didn't draw on him.

Being shot would be preferable to having that become recorded for all time in US Constitutional law.

__________________"There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar

Huh? How would they even know he was dead. If someone is shooting at me, and I'm in the driver seat, my first instinct will be to hit the gas and flee the scene. Then if one of the passengers has been hit, it would be to go to the gas station.

My point is if a search was conducted after they had left, and no gun was found, then its pretty inconclusive. If the vehicle never left, and security footage can show no one left with a shotgun, and a search by police found no shotgun, then this guy has absolutely no defense. And that doesn't mean I think he's off the hook if search was inconclusive.

Edit: Maybe, you thought by saying "flee the scene" I was insinuating they did something wrong by immediately leaving at high speed, which I wasn't. And that is if they actually did, which I still haven't seen established one way or the other.

What are the odds that the object Dunn thought was a gun barrel was actually a bag of Skittles?

__________________It's not a matter of living life without mystery or wonder. It's a matter of living life without the approval of people who ignorantly assume that by rejecting the irrational, I experience no mystery or wonder. And frankly, I do just fine without that.

" According to a 2008 analysis of NYPD firearms discharge data done by the New York Times, between 1996-2006 officers hit their intended target about 34 percent of the time."

You know I think accuracy might just go way way down, when your in a life or death situation as compared to shooting a stationary target that doesn't shoot back. All that adrenaline etc, being in a big ass hurry to shoot them first, plus darkness will severely hamper accuracy. An extremely heavy trigger pull, like the NYPD sets on their Glocks, won't help either.

You know I think accuracy might just go way way down, when your in a life or death situation as compared to shooting a stationary target that doesn't shoot back. All that adrenaline etc, being in a big ass hurry to shoot them first, plus darkness will severely hamper accuracy. An extremely heavy trigger pull, like the NYPD sets on their Glocks, won't help either.

The sad fact is that unless you're talking about high-speed/low drag military units that run range training every day, there are always more misses than hits.

In examining individual incidents with the physical evidence in front of you, trained officers that keep up on training in between requals run up the hit probability average, but even then you only get to maybe 50-60% rounds on target.

The NYC trigger in the Glock isn't exactly a problem if an individual trains and has good follow through on the trigger - but practice is the key. If the agency doesn't have the budget to run a good training program on the agencies dime, few officers drop the money required to go through 1K rds. a month in training.

In my Dept. I was able to get approximately 30-35% of officers to commit to weekly training on a regular basis in any given year, including the tactical team.