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We're all sinners to some extent Kev.. but our divide here is that you believe sin is determined by biblical edicts and tenets while I believe it's derived from an innate instinct and resulting self-governor that a non hands-on Supreme Being/Grand Designor hard wired into us as part of the architectural blueprint. Don't need no one to tell me what's a sin thank you (especially if they're hypocritcal about it themselves!) Have you noticed that the more stridently vociferous and inflexible the sin sermonizer is, the more likely they turn out to be hypocrites themselves and in reality trying to shame themselves or seek salvation by rationalizing that while they can't save themselves, maybe their redemption lies in saving others ??? Ya know, I've given a lot of thought over many years to all of this but don't really wanna get too much beyond the periphery here of my own observations and beliefs; that periphery being that while I certainly do respect those who consistently live by their faith based beliefs, I personally reject them and resent anyone trying to foist them on me spiritually or legally.

I think I hear ya correctly - Cain knew that he had committed sin when he killed his brother Abel ~ there wasn't any written revelation at the time. (Genesis 4)

But for me the narrative doesn't end there, while I believe we have an inner blueprint, I really do, God was also merciful to give his people the "Law of Moses" that they a sinful people could come into contact with "Holy" - and His people still dropped the ball, thinking they could be "holy" and stand in His presence by sacrificing helpless animals or by eatting and cleaning themselves correctly.

Now, I also know that Christianity in the USA is also a lot more "political" than here in Canada and that has turned more than one stomach both on the outside looking in but alos on the inside looking into Christianity. I have done some of my own research into Deism, and while I cannot disagree that there is a blue print or more, I cannot fathom a rational for why there isn't any "revelation" from this creator ~

If some "Law" wasn't written down we would have what we read in the "The Lord of the Flies" - accept there would be no rescue -> Piggy's out there would all be dead -> because they are dying anyway with the blueprint and the revalation

But I won't be the guy confused with having blinders on either. I see the inflexibity of Christiniaty, I talk to people, and that is why I always return to Jesus and what Jesus had to say over anyone's cherry-picked story or account. Yes it gets me in trouble, as did coming out of the closet.

God was also merciful to give his people the "Law of Moses" that they a sinful people could come into contact with "Holy" - and His people still dropped the ball...

You have to understand that when language like that is used, and Christians say that God chooses to be "merciful," what runs in the back of people's minds is that on the flip side, it means God could have easily NOT been merciful. Meaning, we could simply be unlucky. That's where fear comes in. Not only is fear not good for our personal growth, but if everyone around you is also being controlled through fear, then they're not going to have your back if you step out of line, they're going to try to go along with the group.

That's why a lot of people in the Western world have moved away from organized religion, because it's about laws and rules someone wrote down, (no matter how lofty), and it involves a self-appointed human hierarchy. An educated person in the West can follow everything to the letter, and still feel a lack of spirituality. For me, personally, I don't feel God punishes in any way, shape or form. He's genderless, and formless, and emotionless. He has no memory, no history, as past is present is future. What ever is left of me, of my spiritual essence, which existed prior to my birth, will return back to wherever it originated. It won't matter what laws I followed or didn't follow, and whether I was a jew, gentile, deist or atheist. Because these religions depend on either our birth, geographical location, or our environment, and we don't have choice or control over any of that.

If some "Law" wasn't written down we would have what we read in the "The Lord of the Flies" -accept there would be no rescue -> Piggy's out there would all be dead -> because they are dying anyway with the blueprint and the revalation

You're pointing to the real reason organized religion exists. It's uncomfortable for many people to imagine life without religion, for various reasons. If you're a woman, you may feel religions keep criminals in check. If you're a man, you may feel it instills much needed discipline, keeps your kids from talking back to you, and is an important institution for civilization. If you're closeted, you may feel it's a refuge. If you're Southern, it's part of your culture. If you're black, it's part of your music and political platform. And I can go on and on....with our religion as well as other religions around the globe, and none of it has to do with salvation.

As far as the "Piggy's"...that's sociology. It's up to us to evolve to the point where we recognize the value and individuality and worth of every person. To maintain concepts of fairness, and tolerance, and egality, and teach it to every generation. Religion is not going to teach us that. Religion teaches concepts of sameness, of group-think, and familiarity. Within religion we are also shown hierarchy, and power structure. That is why it marries so well with nationalism and dictatorship, because when folks are already used to obeying religious leaders, they will do the same thing with political leaders.

I've always felt that religion lost it's golden opportunity, to be the exact opposite of all that. To not be about obeying, and to not be about hierarchy, and not about money, or land, or culture. If religion simply filled in the missing void - how to be free of fear, and how to forgive others and ourselves, would be a great thing. We are afraid, for example, to let Mike Sam in a locker room. We are afraid without religious structure the criminals will run wild. We are afraid that if we close churches, they will re-open as mosques. We are afraid of terrorists, so we allow ourselves to be lorded over. If we conquered our fears, think of what we could accomplish! And what if religion actually taught us how to do that?

HoneyB - I think it is blind naivete that if we didn't have armies, laws, and fences that people wouldn't attempt to take advantage - that said the laws aren't enough and religion and rule keeping has completely failed us the opposite of love - you are quite right is not "hate" but fear

You have to understand that when language like that is used, and Christians say that God chooses to be "merciful," what runs in the back of people's minds is that on the flip side, it means God could have easily NOT been merciful. Meaning, we could simply be unlucky. That's where fear comes in. Not only is fear not good for our personal growth, but if everyone around you is also being controlled through fear, then they're not going to have your back if you step out of line, they're going to try to go along with the group.

That's why a lot of people in the Western world have moved away from organized religion, because it's about laws and rules someone wrote down, (no matter how lofty), and it involves a self-appointed human hierarchy. An educated person in the West can follow everything to the letter, and still feel a lack of spirituality. For me, personally, I don't feel God punishes in any way, shape or form. He's genderless, and formless, and emotionless. He has no memory, no history, as past is present is future. What ever is left of me, of my spiritual essence, which existed prior to my birth, will return back to wherever it originated. It won't matter what laws I followed or didn't follow, and whether I was a jew, gentile, deist or atheist. Because these religions depend on either our birth, geographical location, or our environment, and we don't have choice or control over any of that.

You're pointing to the real reason organized religion exists. It's uncomfortable for many people to imagine life without religion, for various reasons. If you're a woman, you may feel religions keep criminals in check. If you're a man, you may feel it instills much needed discipline, keeps your kids from talking back to you, and is an important institution for civilization. If you're closeted, you may feel it's a refuge. If you're Southern, it's part of your culture. If you're black, it's part of your music and political platform. And I can go on and on....with our religion as well as other religions around the globe, and none of it has to do with salvation.

As far as the "Piggy's"...that's sociology. It's up to us to evolve to the point where we recognize the value and individuality and worth of every person. To maintain concepts of fairness, and tolerance, and egality, and teach it to every generation. Religion is not going to teach us that. Religion teaches concepts of sameness, of group-think, and familiarity. Within religion we are also shown hierarchy, and power structure. That is why it marries so well with nationalism and dictatorship, because when folks are already used to obeying religious leaders, they will do the same thing with political leaders.

I've always felt that religion lost it's golden opportunity, to be the exact opposite of all that. To not be about obeying, and to not be about hierarchy, and not about money, or land, or culture. If religion simply filled in the missing void - how to be free of fear, and how to forgive others and ourselves, would be a great thing. We are afraid, for example, to let Mike Sam in a locker room. We are afraid without religious structure the criminals will run wild. We are afraid that if we close churches, they will re-open as mosques. We are afraid of terrorists, so we allow ourselves to be lorded over. If we conquered our fears, think of what we could accomplish! And what if religion actually taught us how to do that?

i'm catholic and i have masturbated and had sex out of wedlock a total of 763,421 times (the bulk of that masturbation of course), how many hail mary's and our fathers do i have to say in order to be forgiven?

I also appreciate your recurring reassurance that as a "heathen" I'm not doomed to an eternity of damnation (hope you're right.).

This is my stance -> to be clear there is hope -> God would prefer you choose him now, that said...

If you don't want to be with God in the next resurrection you won't have to, God won't force you or make you. I don't believe the Greek view of Hell is true. I can't see God creating a second room to forever torture souls for stealing bread to feed their famililes. Yes we are all sinful, we need a Saviour, all roads do not lead to God. I also do not believe that the soul is eternal like the Greeks did - therefore those who don't want to be with God can choose to be annilated. It sounds horrible it sounds cold and that is what death is cold - 6 feet under in most circumstances.

I take 1 Corinthians 15 very seriously on the matter of resurrection and what the resurrection body looks like - each star will differ in "glory" as star differs from star in splendor" I believe the bible teaches forwards and back that there are rewards to a life well lived. How those rewards shape up no one knows for sure but God who can count our sleepless nights and our tears can keep track of our fiathfulness and lack therof of faithfulness. The people who are most accountable are the ones with the abililty and influence to make a difference. People like me - So in otherwords "I am the First who shall be last" - I sense a lot of other very worthy people will be ahead of me

I think the newborn aborted baby, the child born with aids, the child born in such extreme poverty that their parents would sell their child's bodies for money, I think their is hope in God in the next life -> and these the "poorest" of folks are also our spiritual mentors.

Yes -> for this I will likley be labeled a heretic - LOL - but not too long ago I would have burned at the stake, tied to a big stick

To not believe in hell is to not believe in Jesus. Jesus spoke more about hell than did anyone else in the entire bible.

Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

You or anyone else can makeup your own fantasy as to what happens after death, if that is what helps you get to sleep at night, but don't confuse that with the teaching of Jesus Christ. He's pretty clear on the subject.

Yo Kev, thanx for taking the time on an insightful and passionate response. We just don't see eye to eye but i respect people who actually live by the credo of their faith.. and know a couple whose newfound faith has actually uplifted them from bad lives. However, as you know from the past, I was brought up exposed to 2 religions with devout practitioners on both sides. However when I read Rousseau and Voltaire in college philosophy, their ideas of evolution, non-judgmental spirituality and being captain of ones own fate while acknowledging the world couldn't interact, fit, interlock as precisely without a grand plan by a Supreme Grand Architect made eminent sense to me. I knew I wasn't an atheist, likely not an agnostic but finally I found a home as a Deist. One of my hot buttons is hypocrisy like all the louts on their shaky soapboxes on BSPN, as well as the dysfunctional network itself, putting out a desired spin. Not unlike MSNBC or Fox (which actually sued about 11 years ago for the right to falsify news as they saw fit), I have a problem with organized religionists who hypocritically preach one thing and do another. They have no right to foist their beliefs on me personally or legally, nor to sit in judgement of me. It's largely the judgmental and divisive nature of "true believers" of whatever religion as well as my empiricism and logic orientation that long ago made me tune out. So my question to you as a proud heathen is if I actually do acknowledge a hands-off Supreme Being, live my life ethically the way I believe that entity hard-wired me naturally to do so, if there actually is a heaven (and I don't believe so but have lost some dear dear people who died too soon so I hope I'm wrong), why wouldn't I be welcomed in? Or do I have to believe in your vision to be welcomed into your heaven? And what about if I'm right.. do you think you'd be welcomed into a non-sectarian afterlife created by my vision of a Divine Power?

Inquiring minds want to know, eh? (threw in the Canaspeak cuz I sure hear it enough to sound natural)

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

How insulting is it to think sin was so important to God that he had to send his Son to die on a cross so that we might have a way to miss an eternity without God, yet believe that all of that was done for nothing because you can get there on your own belief system??

Again excellent points - but yes I am a hypocrite and I am not happy about it - I knew a bit of your past and respect that you are a deist. I disagree, I see the argument and reject it 100%.

Hypocrisy that is a sharp one... It cannot solely be owned by Christianity - every faith has hypocrisy - In fact anyone who wears a mask or hides who they really are, could be considered a hypocrite a "charlatan"

Everyone is trying to look better than "they really are" and I would add that Christians certainly deserve the label. We don't want to admit that we are often defeated by sin, that our behaviour is not always in keping with God's statutes.

As far as the meaning of the word "hypocrite" it has "evolved" over time into believing, meaning, saying something, and not being able to follow through. In the olden days hypocrisy meant that you said soemthing with no intention of following through.

That said I hear quite frequently "I don't go to church beacuse I don't want to be a hypocrite!" These folks know I am a minister, I respond, "I go to curch because I am a hypcrite" -> Generally the person is left speechless, you see Vk I cannot live what I preach but it doesn't make it less true just because a "schmuck" like me makes mistakes on a daily basis.

I much prefer people to see God in me, a schmuck, than people think I am some solid upstanding Christian because I am set up to fail -> people watch and they take note.

So Vk and my finheaven brethren "I believe" and I cannot follow through -> not an excuse just the simple truth

VERY well said!!! If we could walk the walk and talk the talk then we wouldn't even NEED Jesus's sacriface on the cross. I'm going to a very real heaven because of what Christ did for me, not what I have done for myself. All I have done is believed on Him and accepted his sacriface.