Post by snow on May 4, 2019 18:34:06 GMT -5

Okay. Powers should be used responsibly, that we can agree on. I presume the power wasn't from God, or he could have withheld it then.

No, the power had already been given. To revoke it would bring in the issue of the reason Jesus was sacrificed for the sins of the world. That’s ne cancelling the desired effect of Christ’s death and resurrection.

I do not see the parallel between Jesus' resurrection and crucifixion and revoking misused powers? Where is the connection?

In the end there will only be three things that matter. How much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of the things not meant for you. The BuddhaMorality comes not from a book, or a guy up in the sky, but from the idea that how you treat people matters, because how people feel matters. Unknown.

Post by BobWilliston on May 4, 2019 19:46:10 GMT -5

I don’t think anyone has said or inferred that God uses such evil just to “catch perpetrators “.

You didn't SAY that. And you apparently didn't intend to infer that. You said:No, he doesn’t allow. He lets the evil hard hearts do their evil, he’s turned themover to reprobate minds. Lack of consciences. He will exact payment.

Consider this:You're a parent. You are sitting on a park bench watching your 4 year old daughterplay with some other kids. After a while you notice that a 40ish well dressed manhas given her a treat, which she eventually eats. Then the man takes her by thehand and leads her off and out of sight behind a think hedge.You know the man -- he has a reputation for trafficking in child pornography -- soyou let the evil hard hearted man do his evil, turn him over to his reprobate mind.And then exact payment by having him arrested for distributing naked pictures ofyour daughter.

Can you say you didn't allow your daughter to be molested?Is there an acceptable reason for a caring parent to EVER decide not to intervene?For your own child or for anyone else's child for that matter?

I think what God does in the situations leaves it for humans to do some policing themselves.To take their responsibilities to society’s peace seriously.

I think what you did in the situation is leave it to the police to do some policingfor you.And I think that Child Protective Services will remove the child from you and prosecuteyou for allowing the child to be exposed to a child predator.

Maybe if the people would make a law that when vulnerable people are abused, it’s the same thing as killing them. And they are to be judged accordingly. This giving of 5 years for molesting children, then are released in 2-3 years is not a very good deterrent. Yes, they have to register as a sex offender for the rest of their lives but so many times even that is nothing but a slap on the wrist.

Maybe if they executed the man for molesting children . . . . . they could say that you didn'tallow your daughter go with the man ? ? ? ?But somehow god doesn't let it happen ? ? ? ?

Post by forgotten on May 4, 2019 19:55:37 GMT -5

WHY does EVERY tread have to turn into the SAME OLD ARGUMENTS???

This is still a big problem today. There has been "friends" in ME and WI who have been accused of abusing children from meeting in the past few years and there has been no reports on this forum or WINGS about either one.They have both been kept quite and that makes me sick. The one in WI was charged. The one in ME moved out of state and no longer goes to meeting but no one went to the authorities. The people that told me about this know how I feel about these issues. I have been in contact with authorities on numerous occasions. Even lobbied the governor of the state I was abused in to do away with the statute of limitations for abuse of children.

I will continue to speak up until every worker and friend acknowledges that sexual abuse of children is very damaging to the children and their families.

Post by rational on May 4, 2019 23:21:15 GMT -5

Take your questions and doubts about God not stopping child abuse to gotquestions.com

They’re a little better at trying to explain that it’s not God who should be blasphemed over child abuse, but the evil tendencies that reside in humans.

The question is about the moral code of an entity that knows children are being abused and has the power to eliminate the abuse but stands by and does nothing.

The same question could be asked about the rfeason to cure a single leper instead of eliminating the disease.Of course, spontaneous cure in an individual is known to happen. Was he cure from Jesus or was it a case of spontaneous cure? Eliminating the diease would have been a true miracle. But then... it didn't happen.

Post by janj on May 5, 2019 13:41:35 GMT -5

It seems as though this is made a group thing/problem. More realistically it is a human nature problem so should we all be out there examining the world? This is a narrow minded approach to think we can have a single focus approach. Maybe my neighbors are suspect? Maybe my fellow employees at work are suspect? So it stands to reason reaching out to the entire world is what should be done.

You are right. CSA isn’t just in the two by twos but is fairly rampant the world over! Why? Because evil will always pick on the most vulnerable!However the film was because the two by two church knew about the Catholic CSA issues, but as the reporter said, they didn’t learn a thing from all the news and legalities brought against the Catholics.

I understood that what the experience of the ladies on this program was when they were young adults,which would have been quite some years ago. The Catholic CSA issue came to light long after this.Not excusing but covering and sheltering was very common then.

Post by nathan on May 5, 2019 13:51:58 GMT -5

This is still a big problem today. There has been "friends" in ME and WI who have been accused of abusing children from meeting in the past few years and there has been no reports on this forum or WINGS about either one.They have both been kept quite and that makes me sick. The one in WI was charged. The one in ME moved out of state and no longer goes to meeting but no one went to the authorities. The people that told me about this know how I feel about these issues. I have been in contact with authorities on numerous occasions. Even lobbied the governor of the state I was abused in to do away with the statute of limitations for abuse of children.

I will continue to speak up until every worker and friend acknowledges that sexual abuse of children is very damaging to the children and their families.

Myself, some of the friends and a few workers tried to WARN, and educate the workers and the friends about CSA back in the year 2000 with articles on my 2x2 website and message board. TOO Bad, they didn't take it seriously.... If they did they would NOT be in a BIG Jam like in Australia and other places.

Here is the link...

1) PNG wrote : (Reuters) - The United Nations demanded that the Vatican "immediately remove" all clergy who are known or suspected child abusers and turn them over to civil authorities, in an unprecedented and scathing report on Wednesday. The U.N. Committee on the Rights of the Child said church officials had imposed a "code of silence" on clerics to prevent them reporting attacks/abuses to police, and moved abusers from parish to parish "in an attempt to cover up such crimes".[/i]

Link to complete article

The 2x2 ministry/Workers needs to heed the same advice: Immediately remove all workers who are known or suspected child abusers and turn them over to civil authorities.

NathanB: I AGREE 120% that the overseers/workers around the world to take heed of this or they will end up in prison/jail like the overseer Jerome F and Bill D. for not reporting CSA. Walker wrote: Bill Denk and Jerome Frandle had to complete community service/Jail due to covering up Darren Briggs' perverted behavior. Darren Briggs was arrested a few years ago for a wrestling session in a basement that led to molestation charges. A then 12 year old was victimized in a home where Bill was spending the night. Bill Denk and Darren Briggs were companions in 06-07.

Every worker, church elders should and must have a background checks for sexual abused history, Before they were allowed to enter the ministry And those who appoint to become church leaders.

~~ Nathan B: It's much better to have fewer dedicated workers than having 50 CSA workers in the work!The girls will NOT get over it. If he/she doesn't get professional help sometimes he/she will become abuser him/herself. It has to STOP now! or the abuses will continue to the next generation. The overseers NEED to educate their STAFF of workers about CSA. Too many workers don't understand how serious CSA is and they can go to jail for NOT reporting the incident to the police.

It is estimated that childhood sexual abuse affects over 40 million people yearly, just in the United States alone. To those of you, like myself, who struggle daily with symptoms and defense mechanisms acquired from childhood incest, this study will prove especially enlightening. It will also, hopefully soften the attitude of family members and close friends who must endure the drama of the survivor. So many times I have heard well-meaning people state, "Just move on and forget about it," or the more judgmental, "You're just CHOOSING to be unhappy."

Post by sharingtheriches on May 5, 2019 14:02:44 GMT -5

You are right. CSA isn’t just in the two by twos but is fairly rampant the world over! Why? Because evil will always pick on the most vulnerable!However the film was because the two by two church knew about the Catholic CSA issues, but as the reporter said, they didn’t learn a thing from all the news and legalities brought against the Catholics.

I understood that what the experience of the ladies on this program was when they were young adults,which would have been quite some years ago. The Catholic CSA issue came to light long after this.Not excusing but covering and sheltering was very common then.

The media started making the RCC CSA issue known about 39-40 years ago! The 1980’s were rife with the allegations and some lawsuits thereof.I know for a fact it was one of the big subjects amongst the two by two groups. Most indicating that it was because the RCC was a false church!But still they refused to look within their own group for such issues since it’s been said that the “forbidding to marry” is considered one of the biggest reasons!

Post by nathan on May 5, 2019 14:11:56 GMT -5

EMERGENCY MEASURES WITH POSSIBLE PERMANENT IMPLEMENTATION.

1) Workers must not except in unavoidable circumstances reside in the homes where there are unrelated children or other recognized vulnerable persons staying. Any occasion where it is necessary to stay in homes where such persons reside MUST be reported to and sanctioned by the overseer.

2) Workers who are alone must not stay in the homes where there are single people of the opposite sex.

3) Workers must not frequent or stay overnight in the homes of the Friends whilst the husband or wife of a friend may be absent. A degree of license can be exercised for short visits during the day time etc., where this can be justified.

4) Workers must not be left alone for lengthy periods of time with children. There must be a minimum of two workers present, or at least one other adult. A lengthy period may be defined from the circumstances and in which it can be perceived a risk exists.

5) Workers must as far as possible be provided with separate bedrooms. Where this is not possible and a room is shared, then they must be provided with separate beds. The practice of bed sharing must be allowed except in very extreme cases.

6) Workers must report to the overseer any suspicions of inappropriate behavior by any fellow worker, companion or friend. If any matter of a criminal nature is suspected then steps must be taken to ensure the matter is being reported by someone appropriate to the relevant authorities.

THE FOLLOWING SHOULD BE CONSIDERED FOR FUTURE IMPLEMENTATION

7) Workers should maintain a daily diary in which they record the homes and other places they stay along with any companions. Also, any problems of note encountered must be recorded in the diary.

8) In cases of suspected criminal matters of inappropriate behavior, a relevant entry stating who was contacted and when, must be entered in the diary.

9) Friends MUST be encouraged to report to the overseer any inappropriate behavior shown by a worker. They must also be encouraged if any matters of a criminal nature come to light, they must report the matter to the police or other competent authority.

10) All diaries MUST be handed over to the overseer at a convenient time in the workers’ calendar, e.g. convention time, or when a person leaves the work, or goes abroad, etc. It will be the responsibility of the overseer to issue diaries to the workers in his field.

11) The overseer MUST make provision for retaining these diaries (which can be electronic or conventional) for a period of not less than ten years. The diaries will be invaluable, at least for this period of time, as sources of reference and most particularly in assisting with any future investigations into improper conduct.

12) Overseers MUST make random contact to a number of the members of the laity in his field to ensure everything is okay from a friends’ perspective, during the mission term and/or once the previous year’s diaries have been submitted. Friends must be put at their ease and given the confidence to report any untoward matters.

The workers have brought the real world into the homes of the friends through the abusive behaviors of a few. They have devastated the trust placed/misplaced in them by the victims and their families as well as fellow workers. It is now time for the workers to join the real world and implement the foregoing or similar controls in order that the “worldly” tendencies within their ranks are strictly controlled.

In preparing the foregoing every attempt has been made as far as is reasonable to preserve the operation of the current worker environment against the primary considerations of protecting children and other vulnerable persons. As this includes workers themselves it is believed that many workers would welcome many of these suggestions even for their own personal comfort and protection. These suggestions are not meant to replace any education programs or reporting procedures, but are to be viewed as a foundation upon which these matters should be founded.

Author unknown

2) Someone wrote: This is addressed in the worker guidelines actually as far as acceptable behavior so. (It could fall under your idea of educating everyone about abuse issues)

sites.google.com/site/csacodeofc....priate-touching

Examples of INAPPROPRIATE contact/behavior, includes but is not limited to the following:

• Kisses on the mouth

• Inappropriate or lengthy hugs or embraces

• Holding minors, above the approximate age of 5, on one's lap

• Touching buttocks, genital areas, breasts, knees, thighs or legs

• Showing physical displays of affection in isolated areas of the premises such as

bedrooms, closets, bathrooms, or other private areas of a home

• Sharing a room or bed with a minor or youth.

• Going for a walk alone with a minor or youth.

• Spending time in a minor or youth s bedroom

• Informal wrestling with minors or youths except for legitimate sports coaching, in

which case another adult would be present.

• Tickling and piggyback rides

• Any type of non-professional massage given by an adult to a minor or youth.

• Any display of unwanted affection towards a minor or youth.

• Remarks that include compliments relating to sexual attractiveness or sexual development

• Lifting a child off the ground without parental consent.

Some feel that the appropriate age would actually be 2 for workers to be holding kids on their laps. There is also a list for APPROPRIATE touching/interaction with kids.

There is a lot of good information in those guidelines for both the workers and families. It would be nice for everyone to know what should be expected when workers are around families, as it protects the workers AND the kids. When people understand established boundaries, it makes interaction a lot easier. Parents would know that they shouldn't place workers into certain situations, and the workers would know that they have some rules which both they and the families they are around need to follow.

The following also needs to be added to this list (evidently):

1) no molesting kids

2) no molesting adults

3) whistle-blowers are to be encouraged with NO punishment attached to honestly bringing forth concerns.

Post by enuf on May 5, 2019 16:14:59 GMT -5

Number 5 in the first lot has bed sharing must be allowed except in very extreme occasions. Surely it must NOT be allowed and in no circumstances.

I was surprised that in the UK workers insisted on sharing beds. Also being alone with the same sex should be taken as seriously as being alone with the opposite sex these days. I heard stories of workers having relationships with their same sex companions.

The last part no molesting means different things to different people. People who molest others do not believe they are molesting. The word kids should not be used.

Post by sharingtheriches on May 5, 2019 16:35:57 GMT -5

I don’t think anyone has said or inferred that God uses such evil just to “catch perpetrators “.

You didn't SAY that. And you apparently didn't intend to infer that. You said:No, he doesn’t allow. He lets the evil hard hearts do their evil, he’s turned themover to reprobate minds. Lack of consciences. He will exact payment.

Consider this:You're a parent. You are sitting on a park bench watching your 4 year old daughterplay with some other kids. After a while you notice that a 40ish well dressed manhas given her a treat, which she eventually eats. Then the man takes her by thehand and leads her off and out of sight behind a think hedge.You know the man -- he has a reputation for trafficking in child pornography -- soyou let the evil hard hearted man do his evil, turn him over to his reprobate mind.And then exact payment by having him arrested for distributing naked pictures ofyour daughter.

Can you say you didn't allow your daughter to be molested?Is there an acceptable reason for a caring parent to EVER decide not to intervene?For your own child or for anyone else's child for that matter?

I think what God does in the situations leaves it for humans to do some policing themselves.To take their responsibilities to society’s peace seriously.

I think what you did in the situation is leave it to the police to do some policingfor you.And I think that Child Protective Services will remove the child from you and prosecuteyou for allowing the child to be exposed to a child predator.

Maybe if the people would make a law that when vulnerable people are abused, it’s the same thing as killing them. And they are to be judged accordingly. This giving of 5 years for molesting children, then are released in 2-3 years is not a very good deterrent. Yes, they have to register as a sex offender for the rest of their lives but so many times even that is nothing but a slap on the wrist.

Maybe if they executed the man for molesting children . . . . . they could say that you didn'tallow your daughter go with the man ? ? ? ?But somehow god doesn't let it happen ? ? ? ?

No! I was talking about people doing the policing.

So in your scenario where the parents sits on her can and let’s the perp do his dirty evil to her daughter is not doing her policing.Mi agree that humans have due diligence to do policing. Everyone of us.I also think parents who allow such done to their children or actually pay no heed when children tell them it happened, should lose their children for a length of time until they’ve taken parenting classes that address parental responsibilities. Plus instruction for parents to make it where they children Will tell them such occasions or even occasions when the child has felt threatened or uncomfortable.

I firmly believe that God intends that humans use the brains and other natural blessings to take care of themselves and those they’re responsible for.Mits not unlike nurses and doctors have to undergo extensive education and training to take care of their respons to mankind.

We could start blaspheming God for allowing illnesses, diseases, and accidents that all compromise the wellness of humans.

Post by sharingtheriches on May 5, 2019 16:50:58 GMT -5

1) Workers must not except in unavoidable circumstances reside in the homes where there are unrelated children or other recognized vulnerable persons staying. Any occasion where it is necessary to stay in homes where such persons reside MUST be reported to and sanctioned by the overseer.

2) Workers who are alone must not stay in the homes where there are single people of the opposite sex.

3) Workers must not frequent or stay overnight in the homes of the Friends whilst the husband or wife of a friend may be absent. A degree of license can be exercised for short visits during the day time etc., where this can be justified.

4) Workers must not be left alone for lengthy periods of time with children. There must be a minimum of two workers present, or at least one other adult. A lengthy period may be defined from the circumstances and in which it can be perceived a risk exists.

5) Workers must as far as possible be provided with separate bedrooms. Where this is not possible and a room is shared, then they must be provided with separate beds. The practice of bed sharing must be allowed except in very extreme cases.

6) Workers must report to the overseer any suspicions of inappropriate behavior by any fellow worker, companion or friend. If any matter of a criminal nature is suspected then steps must be taken to ensure the matter is being reported by someone appropriate to the relevant authorities.

THE FOLLOWING SHOULD BE CONSIDERED FOR FUTURE IMPLEMENTATION

7) Workers should maintain a daily diary in which they record the homes and other places they stay along with any companions. Also, any problems of note encountered must be recorded in the diary.

8) In cases of suspected criminal matters of inappropriate behavior, a relevant entry stating who was contacted and when, must be entered in the diary.

9) Friends MUST be encouraged to report to the overseer any inappropriate behavior shown by a worker. They must also be encouraged if any matters of a criminal nature come to light, they must report the matter to the police or other competent authority.

10) All diaries MUST be handed over to the overseer at a convenient time in the workers’ calendar, e.g. convention time, or when a person leaves the work, or goes abroad, etc. It will be the responsibility of the overseer to issue diaries to the workers in his field.

11) The overseer MUST make provision for retaining these diaries (which can be electronic or conventional) for a period of not less than ten years. The diaries will be invaluable, at least for this period of time, as sources of reference and most particularly in assisting with any future investigations into improper conduct.

12) Overseers MUST make random contact to a number of the members of the laity in his field to ensure everything is okay from a friends’ perspective, during the mission term and/or once the previous year’s diaries have been submitted. Friends must be put at their ease and given the confidence to report any untoward matters.

The workers have brought the real world into the homes of the friends through the abusive behaviors of a few. They have devastated the trust placed/misplaced in them by the victims and their families as well as fellow workers. It is now time for the workers to join the real world and implement the foregoing or similar controls in order that the “worldly” tendencies within their ranks are strictly controlled.

In preparing the foregoing every attempt has been made as far as is reasonable to preserve the operation of the current worker environment against the primary considerations of protecting children and other vulnerable persons. As this includes workers themselves it is believed that many workers would welcome many of these suggestions even for their own personal comfort and protection. These suggestions are not meant to replace any education programs or reporting procedures, but are to be viewed as a foundation upon which these matters should be founded.

Author unknown

2) Someone wrote: This is addressed in the worker guidelines actually as far as acceptable behavior so. (It could fall under your idea of educating everyone about abuse issues)

sites.google.com/site/csacodeofc....priate-touching

Examples of INAPPROPRIATE contact/behavior, includes but is not limited to the following:

• Kisses on the mouth

• Inappropriate or lengthy hugs or embraces

• Holding minors, above the approximate age of 5, on one's lap

• Touching buttocks, genital areas, breasts, knees, thighs or legs

• Showing physical displays of affection in isolated areas of the premises such as

bedrooms, closets, bathrooms, or other private areas of a home

• Sharing a room or bed with a minor or youth.

• Going for a walk alone with a minor or youth.

• Spending time in a minor or youth s bedroom

• Informal wrestling with minors or youths except for legitimate sports coaching, in

which case another adult would be present.

• Tickling and piggyback rides

• Any type of non-professional massage given by an adult to a minor or youth.

• Any display of unwanted affection towards a minor or youth.

• Remarks that include compliments relating to sexual attractiveness or sexual development

• Lifting a child off the ground without parental consent.

Some feel that the appropriate age would actually be 2 for workers to be holding kids on their laps. There is also a list for APPROPRIATE touching/interaction with kids.

There is a lot of good information in those guidelines for both the workers and families. It would be nice for everyone to know what should be expected when workers are around families, as it protects the workers AND the kids. When people understand established boundaries, it makes interaction a lot easier. Parents would know that they shouldn't place workers into certain situations, and the workers would know that they have some rules which both they and the families they are around need to follow.

The following also needs to be added to this list (evidently):

1) no molesting kids

2) no molesting adults

3) whistle-blowers are to be encouraged with NO punishment attached to honestly bringing forth concerns.

4) do not shun whistle blowers

5) do not remove from the work any worker that is a whistle blower

A foreign worker was booted out of the work same time IH was because of the way he handled a two year old tot who was retarded. The mother was watching, didn’t seem to see abnormal; but granny had a fit and reported the man.

Post by BobWilliston on May 5, 2019 17:49:52 GMT -5

You didn't SAY that. And you apparently didn't intend to infer that. You said:No, he doesn’t allow. He lets the evil hard hearts do their evil, he’s turned themover to reprobate minds. Lack of consciences. He will exact payment.

Consider this:You're a parent. You are sitting on a park bench watching your 4 year old daughterplay with some other kids. After a while you notice that a 40ish well dressed manhas given her a treat, which she eventually eats. Then the man takes her by thehand and leads her off and out of sight behind a think hedge.You know the man -- he has a reputation for trafficking in child pornography -- soyou let the evil hard hearted man do his evil, turn him over to his reprobate mind.And then exact payment by having him arrested for distributing naked pictures ofyour daughter.

Can you say you didn't allow your daughter to be molested?Is there an acceptable reason for a caring parent to EVER decide not to intervene?For your own child or for anyone else's child for that matter?I think what you did in the situation is leave it to the police to do some policingfor you.And I think that Child Protective Services will remove the child from you and prosecuteyou for allowing the child to be exposed to a child predator.Maybe if they executed the man for molesting children . . . . . they could say that you didn'tallow your daughter go with the man ? ? ? ?But somehow god doesn't let it happen ? ? ? ?

No! I was talking about people doing the policing.

So in your scenario where the parents sits on her can and let’s the perp do his dirty evil to her daughter is not doing her policing.Mi agree that humans have due diligence to do policing. Everyone of us.I also think parents who allow such done to their children or actually pay no heed when children tell them it happened, should lose their children for a length of time until they’ve taken parenting classes that address parental responsibilities. Plus instruction for parents to make it where they children Will tell them such occasions or even occasions when the child has felt threatened or uncomfortable.

I firmly believe that God intends that humans use the brains and other natural blessings to take care of themselves and those they’re responsible for.Mits not unlike nurses and doctors have to undergo extensive education and training to take care of their respons to mankind.

We could start blaspheming God for allowing illnesses, diseases, and accidents that all compromise the wellness of humans.

I guess that’ll be your next beef?

I was talking about you and God.I just thought you believed God took care of his children like you would.

Post by sharingtheriches on May 5, 2019 20:34:47 GMT -5

So in your scenario where the parents sits on her can and let’s the perp do his dirty evil to her daughter is not doing her policing.Mi agree that humans have due diligence to do policing. Everyone of us.I also think parents who allow such done to their children or actually pay no heed when children tell them it happened, should lose their children for a length of time until they’ve taken parenting classes that address parental responsibilities. Plus instruction for parents to make it where they children Will tell them such occasions or even occasions when the child has felt threatened or uncomfortable.

I firmly believe that God intends that humans use the brains and other natural blessings to take care of themselves and those they’re responsible for.Mits not unlike nurses and doctors have to undergo extensive education and training to take care of their respons to mankind.

We could start blaspheming God for allowing illnesses, diseases, and accidents that all compromise the wellness of humans.

I guess that’ll be your next beef?

I was talking about you and God.I just thought you believed God took care of his children like you would.

I feel God thinks about who brings the children in the world and that they should be responsible for the care and safety of those children.

Post by BobWilliston on May 5, 2019 21:59:16 GMT -5

I was talking about you and God.I just thought you believed God took care of his children like you would.

I feel God thinks about who brings the children in the world and that they should be responsible for the care and safety of those children.

Which raises the question -- why do so many Christians claim the beneficial interventionof God (for their great strokes of luck), while you seem to claim that the care of thechildren are the responsibility of the parents rather than God?

I suppose someone will propose that it's because the children haven't "professed" yet,or whatever one wants to call that status.

Post by sharingtheriches on May 5, 2019 23:19:27 GMT -5

I feel God thinks about who brings the children in the world and that they should be responsible for the care and safety of those children.

Which raises the question -- why do so many Christians claim the beneficial interventionof God (for their great strokes of luck), while you seem to claim that the care of thechildren are the responsibility of the parents rather than God?

I suppose someone will propose that it's because the children haven't "professed" yet,or whatever one wants to call that status.

I don’t believe anyone gets a God beneficial stroke of good luck. Kismet and happenstance happens to all.Now I believe if we appeal to God he will give us strength and grace to get through a situation.And even children have said the same thing about asking God and God giving them sustenance through an experiment.

True God knows what we need before we ask, but he desires that we seek him to ask even if we don’t quit know how to ask.

God doesn’t seem to be playing chess or checkers with humans. Or at least I’ve not seen that.

Post by BobWilliston on May 6, 2019 0:53:07 GMT -5

Which raises the question -- why do so many Christians claim the beneficial interventionof God (for their great strokes of luck), while you seem to claim that the care of thechildren are the responsibility of the parents rather than God?

I suppose someone will propose that it's because the children haven't "professed" yet,or whatever one wants to call that status.

I don’t believe anyone gets a God beneficial stroke of good luck. Kismet and happenstance happens to all.Now I believe if we appeal to God he will give us strength and grace to get through a situation.And even children have said the same thing about asking God and God giving them sustenance through an experiment.

True God knows what we need before we ask, but he desires that we seek him to ask even if we don’t quit know how to ask.

God doesn’t seem to be playing chess or checkers with humans. Or at least I’ve not seen that.

Post by rational on May 6, 2019 8:44:03 GMT -5

You are right. CSA isn’t just in the two by twos but is fairly rampant the world over! Why? Because evil will always pick on the most vulnerable!However the film was because the two by two church knew about the Catholic CSA issues, but as the reporter said, they didn’t learn a thing from all the news and legalities brought against the Catholics.

I understood that what the experience of the ladies on this program was when they were young adults,which would have been quite some years ago. The Catholic CSA issue came to light long after this.Not excusing but covering and sheltering was very common then.

There is no new news here. Consider the Magdalene Laundries (Asylums) in Ireland and in other places around the world. No one yelled "Stop!. The state got its laundry done. Young women and children were abused forced to work long hours for no pay. Did anyone look at this and change because of it? Nope.

Post by snow on May 6, 2019 12:25:32 GMT -5

You didn't SAY that. And you apparently didn't intend to infer that. You said:No, he doesn’t allow. He lets the evil hard hearts do their evil, he’s turned themover to reprobate minds. Lack of consciences. He will exact payment.

Consider this:You're a parent. You are sitting on a park bench watching your 4 year old daughterplay with some other kids. After a while you notice that a 40ish well dressed manhas given her a treat, which she eventually eats. Then the man takes her by thehand and leads her off and out of sight behind a think hedge.You know the man -- he has a reputation for trafficking in child pornography -- soyou let the evil hard hearted man do his evil, turn him over to his reprobate mind.And then exact payment by having him arrested for distributing naked pictures ofyour daughter.

Can you say you didn't allow your daughter to be molested?Is there an acceptable reason for a caring parent to EVER decide not to intervene?For your own child or for anyone else's child for that matter?I think what you did in the situation is leave it to the police to do some policingfor you.And I think that Child Protective Services will remove the child from you and prosecuteyou for allowing the child to be exposed to a child predator.Maybe if they executed the man for molesting children . . . . . they could say that you didn'tallow your daughter go with the man ? ? ? ?But somehow god doesn't let it happen ? ? ? ?

No! I was talking about people doing the policing.

So in your scenario where the parents sits on her can and let’s the perp do his dirty evil to her daughter is not doing her policing.Mi agree that humans have due diligence to do policing. Everyone of us.I also think parents who allow such done to their children or actually pay no heed when children tell them it happened, should lose their children for a length of time until they’ve taken parenting classes that address parental responsibilities. Plus instruction for parents to make it where they children Will tell them such occasions or even occasions when the child has felt threatened or uncomfortable.

I firmly believe that God intends that humans use the brains and other natural blessings to take care of themselves and those they’re responsible for.Mits not unlike nurses and doctors have to undergo extensive education and training to take care of their respons to mankind.

We could start blaspheming God for allowing illnesses, diseases, and accidents that all compromise the wellness of humans.

I guess that’ll be your next beef?

Do not Christians claim that God is their father? He is therefore a parent and you just stated that parents should have due diligence to do the policing. Why does God the Father get a pass on this?

In the end there will only be three things that matter. How much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of the things not meant for you. The BuddhaMorality comes not from a book, or a guy up in the sky, but from the idea that how you treat people matters, because how people feel matters. Unknown.

Post by snow on May 6, 2019 12:27:20 GMT -5

I feel God thinks about who brings the children in the world and that they should be responsible for the care and safety of those children.

Which raises the question -- why do so many Christians claim the beneficial interventionof God (for their great strokes of luck), while you seem to claim that the care of thechildren are the responsibility of the parents rather than God?

I suppose someone will propose that it's because the children haven't "professed" yet,or whatever one wants to call that status.

It's called 'special pleading'. God shouldn't intervene but if I pray to him to help me with __________ I really hope he breaks that rule, for me.

In the end there will only be three things that matter. How much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of the things not meant for you. The BuddhaMorality comes not from a book, or a guy up in the sky, but from the idea that how you treat people matters, because how people feel matters. Unknown.

Post by sharingtheriches on May 6, 2019 12:48:31 GMT -5

I don’t believe anyone gets a God beneficial stroke of good luck. Kismet and happenstance happens to all.Now I believe if we appeal to God he will give us strength and grace to get through a situation.And even children have said the same thing about asking God and God giving them sustenance through an experiment.

True God knows what we need before we ask, but he desires that we seek him to ask even if we don’t quit know how to ask.

God doesn’t seem to be playing chess or checkers with humans. Or at least I’ve not seen that.

Someone should publish a weekly column of God's thoughts each week.

I didn’t express God’s thoughts but what is in the Bible in that post. The Psalmist wrote such and there seems to be others who wrote that God Luke’s for his own to duplicate to him, even though he may already know what they need. I feel that the point is giving God the credit or as the Bible says giving to God the glory.

Post by sharingtheriches on May 6, 2019 12:50:55 GMT -5

Which raises the question -- why do so many Christians claim the beneficial interventionof God (for their great strokes of luck), while you seem to claim that the care of thechildren are the responsibility of the parents rather than God?

I suppose someone will propose that it's because the children haven't "professed" yet,or whatever one wants to call that status.

It's called 'special pleading'. God shouldn't intervene but if I pray to him to help me with __________ I really hope he breaks that rule, for me.

God does answer prayers. But it may not always be in the way we wish. Most often he gives strength and grace to be able to get through a situation.

Now some may want to say they did that all alone, but in reality didn’t.

Post by sharingtheriches on May 6, 2019 12:54:05 GMT -5

So in your scenario where the parents sits on her can and let’s the perp do his dirty evil to her daughter is not doing her policing.Mi agree that humans have due diligence to do policing. Everyone of us.I also think parents who allow such done to their children or actually pay no heed when children tell them it happened, should lose their children for a length of time until they’ve taken parenting classes that address parental responsibilities. Plus instruction for parents to make it where they children Will tell them such occasions or even occasions when the child has felt threatened or uncomfortable.

I firmly believe that God intends that humans use the brains and other natural blessings to take care of themselves and those they’re responsible for.Mits not unlike nurses and doctors have to undergo extensive education and training to take care of their respons to mankind.

We could start blaspheming God for allowing illnesses, diseases, and accidents that all compromise the wellness of humans.

I guess that’ll be your next beef?

Do not Christians claim that God is their father? He is therefore a parent and you just stated that parents should have due diligence to do the policing. Why does God the Father get a pass on this?

God is a Spirit. Naturally, I wouldn’t expect him to function like a physical human.

But he can put or stir up the right things in people’s hearts and minds to take care of things in such fashion as to making physical humans understand what’s lawful, righteous and loving.

Post by snow on May 6, 2019 12:59:16 GMT -5

It's called 'special pleading'. God shouldn't intervene but if I pray to him to help me with __________ I really hope he breaks that rule, for me.

God does answer prayers. But it may not always be in the way we wish. Most often he gives strength and grace to be able to get through a situation.

Now some may want to say they did that all alone, but in reality didn’t.

There is no evidence that the times I have gotten through a particular rough time in my life, that I didn't do it alone with the help of other humans. I didn't pray to a god for help and there is zero evidence that he helped me. I do have the strength to get through the hard times. I have done it many times.

You can't say on the one hand that God doesn't interfere with CSA and on the other say that he does interfere when you pray to him? That's a contradiction. Why is it alright for God to give you what you want when you pray to him and yet he ignores (what I would think would be very heartfelt prayers) of those being abused? He helps someone avoid having their house ruined in a tornado, but he ignores a child pleading to be saved from a child abuser? Really?

In the end there will only be three things that matter. How much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of the things not meant for you. The BuddhaMorality comes not from a book, or a guy up in the sky, but from the idea that how you treat people matters, because how people feel matters. Unknown.

Post by snow on May 6, 2019 13:01:21 GMT -5

Do not Christians claim that God is their father? He is therefore a parent and you just stated that parents should have due diligence to do the policing. Why does God the Father get a pass on this?

God is a Spirit. Naturally, I wouldn’t expect him to function like a physical human.

But he can put or stir up the right things in people’s hearts and minds to take care of things in such fashion as to making physical humans understand what’s lawful, righteous and loving.

Spirit to spirit.

Okay. So you don't think it's really him then when people thank God for answering their prayer that their house gets saved during a tornado? Then why do people pray for things like that and come on national TV thanking him for answering their prayers?

In the end there will only be three things that matter. How much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of the things not meant for you. The BuddhaMorality comes not from a book, or a guy up in the sky, but from the idea that how you treat people matters, because how people feel matters. Unknown.

Post by sharingtheriches on May 6, 2019 13:06:38 GMT -5

No, the power had already been given. To revoke it would bring in the issue of the reason Jesus was sacrificed for the sins of the world. That’s ne cancelling the desired effect of Christ’s death and resurrection.

I do not see the parallel between Jesus' resurrection and crucifixion and revoking misused powers? Where is the connection?

It’s been said that salvation that was bought by Jesus’ sacrifice and resurrection cannot be denied to those who believe on Jesus Christ. For that would be God revoking his statement of planned salvation through the gift of his only begotten Son. So since God cannot lie, he would not revoke that power of salvation from a true believer. It could work the same way for the powers that are given to the apostles, it would be a negative act against the giver in such as to force him to be a liar. Or we used to say “Indian giver” which is not giving at all. It isn’t a gift if it is revoked, or taken back. Jesus apparently didn’t revoke Judas Iscariot’s powers he’d given him, though one could say that under the circumstances he sure had a right to. Jesus doesn’t give and then take the gift back.

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wally: proboards can be a bit buggy...i still get virus warnings when clicking on thread links...Feb 26, 2020 22:04:28 GMT -5

ant_rotten: Does anyone else constantly have a pop up saying “do you want to download index.html” when using TMB desktop version? This happens to me both on my iPhone and iPad.. Feb 26, 2020 19:56:33 GMT -5

wally: you haven't asked me a question or anything or did i miss one?Feb 20, 2020 6:03:05 GMT -5