With Hipster Friends Like @crackandcider Homeless People Don’t Need Enemies

Picture yourself trying to get to sleep on a hard concrete pavement, whilst biting wind and rain swirls around you and the risk of abuse, arrest and even violence is ever present. Imagine thinking that this could go on for ever, that you have no-one and nothing left, and that only the instinctive fear of death is preventing you from taking that final step. So you do what half the country does before going to bed. You have a fucking drink.

This is how a life on the streets begins and as weeks turn into months routines and habits, bad and good, develop. You might learn where you can get free food, make allegiances, and hopefully genuine friends. Perhaps you spend a few nights, or even months in a nightshelter or hostel. Perhaps you get kicked out for breaking one of the endless petty rules like not being back in time for curfew or having a sneaky can of lager. Or you get beaten up, or piss off someone who might beat you up if you don’t disappear. Homelessness hostels are strange places, often full of tolerance and even love, but they are not safe spaces. All it takes is a vindictive charity worker or a violent argument and you can be back on the streets in a heartbeat.

Homelessness strikes when lives fracture, whether due to relationship break up, debt, eviction or domestic abuse. It often happens to those who have lived through harrowing circumstances – ex-squaddies scarred by war, refugees who have seen loved ones slaughtered, kids who grew up in care or were abused in the family home. At the heart of the problem however is money, and a society that values that above all else. Landlords refusing to accept tenants on benefits, eye-watering deposits to secure even basic accommodation, the chronic lack of social housing and ever more vicious benefit cuts – these are the reasons that street homelessness has risen to record levels over the last five years.

Homelessness endures because the scant social structures in place to prevent it focus on the symptoms – the perceived individual failings of homeless people – not the causes. Just like Iain Duncan Smith blames unemployed people for a lack of jobs, politicians and the charity bosses who suck up to them for funding blame homeless people themselves for their plight. To do otherwise would be to acknowledge their own role in creating the homelessness crisis. That is why in many major cities charities which claim to help homeless people are running anti-begging campaigns to smear them all as drug users or drunks and warning if you give them money you will kill them.

Ask anyone begging what they want, right there and then, and if they are foolish enough to be honest they will say money. That does’t mean they wouldn’t appreciate a sandwich, a cup of tea or a warm coat as well. But what they need is cash. They may want that money for drugs or booze, or they may want it to choose something to eat or wear themselves. They may be in debt, to someone you really don’t want to be in debt to. The propaganda on display in anti-begging campaigns insists that street homeless people do nothing but scrounge and shovel drugs down their necks, never stopping to eat, pay hostel service charges, buy a clean pair of socks or get a bus across town. Yet even the most chaotic substance users still need money for other things as well. Because they are real people, not grotesque cartoons.

The stark truth is that even someone who does beg to maintain an addiction will not be helped by no-one giving them any money. They will simply beg for longer to get what they need, whether that’s a bag of smack or three litres of White Lightening. If the begging is good, and the sun’s out, then once they have that they might beg for something for dinner as well. Or to be able to have their drink of choice rather than rough cheap cider. Or to buy their kid they hardly see a birthday present.

If the begging is bad that day then they will sit there all night, or resort to other means to get money such as crime or sex work. The faster they can meet the needs of their addiction – needs which are real, the street is no place to go cold turkey – the more likely they will have time or money to do other things. What they are really begging for, in many cases, is a bit of stability. A drug law reform poster that occassionally appeared on the streets of King’s Cross a couple of decades ago summed it up: “Heroin addiction is not hedonism but constant medication with a very powerful painkiller”. Until withdrawal symptoms can be medicated away then most people can barely roll a cigarette let alone try to sort their housing out, seek treatment, or get a fucking job. You are unlikely to kill someone with a drug or alcohol dependency with kindness by giving them a quid as hysterical homelessness charities claim. You are not prolonging their addiction, only they can do that. What you might do is give them a bit of space and time to do something else that day other than sit outside a shop doorway and risk arrest by asking people for money.

It is the presumption that homeless people cannot be trusted to be actors in their own lives that reveals the flaws embedded within charity. To make a decision about what someone needs, whilst ignoring what they tell you they need, makes giving all about the giver not the receiver. Charity becomes a way for people to feel better about themselves and for the wealthy to erase the guilt that comes from living in such an unequal and fractured society.

Few things expose this self-indulgence better than the horrifyingly named Crack + Cider initiative which was featured in today’s Huffington Post. This Hackney based pop-up shop was established so that people can help homeless people without worrying whether they will spend the money on alcohol or drugs. They can do this by donating the price of a coat, pair of gloves or umbrella, which Crack + Cider will then buy and give to a homelessness charity. And then it will probably sit in a store room for the next decade along with all the rest of the tat that arrives in charity fundraising offices that they have neither the resources or the will to distribute.

There is of course nothing wrong with buying a homeless person a coat. You can do that very easily without the act being mediated by charity. Go into a shop, buy a coat, give it to a homeless person. Fucking simples. Or join up with #opsafewinter who distribute supplies to homeless people directly.

What is wrong with Crack and Cider, apart from the obvious, is that this is not a project designed to help homeless people, but to help the urban middle classes feel better about homelessness. It does this by not only re-inforcing prejudices people feel towards the homeless, but also allowing them to buy their way out of any sense of personal responsibility for the problem. After all, there might be a poor person walking round now in a coat they paid for. If homeless people are still homeless after that kind of lavish generosity then they only have themselves to blame. Serves them right anyway for taking all those drugs.

In a gushing press release those behind the shop warn that even Kensington and Chelsea council say “giving to rough sleepers contributes to their early death”. There is no evidence that this is true because this is a political lie, used by a Tory council to justify forcing beggars out of one of London’s richest boroughs rather than providing the homes and services they need. A borough that could soon be selling off up to 97% of their socially rented homes. Better to blame people hooked on Special Brew for the homelessness this will cause than the Tory government’s housing policy.

There is no doubt those behind Crack + Cider are trying to be well-meaning – they are not taking any money from the project. The name they say is merely intended to stimulate a conversation about homelessness in that kind of wacky and ironic way that normal people who don’t live in Hoxton probably don’t understand. They say it was inspired by a beggar telling them that people didn’t give them money because they thought they’d spend it all on crack and cider. “Oh yah, that’s what we think too” they no doubt decided. Let’s set up a shop and call it something edgy. And so homelessness, as far as coat-buying Hackney hipsters are concerned, is sorted. Meanwhile down the road a beggar just got stabbed because they tried to pay off a drug debt with a pair of gloves and a fucking umbrella.

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I haven’t got much money myself, but when I see homeless people sitting in in the streets, I’ll give em some spare change, or buy them a pasties or a sandwich, NO CHARITY ON THIS EARTH WILL GET A PENNY FROM ME AGAIN!

“They say it was inspired by a beggar telling them that people didn’t give them money because they thought they’d spend it all on crack and cider.”

This bit of the article, unfortunately, I can well believe. One of the worst things above giving for me is the apology or explanation often felt owed to justify my doing this. It kills me to see somebody living rough, and then on top of that is the grotesqueness – exactly touched on above – worked in on that person through so-called charitable warnings about giving and miserly press articles – that is the real punch, knowing that somebody in that position is made to feel that way.

For the unemployed, a similar preamble bit comes at a new introduction in pointing out that, yes, you really are looking for job. (or at least the less confident will do this) Even some unemployed will declare this to their own cohort!

I have just come out of living in a “Lifehouse” for women, In other words, a Salvation Army Hostel. Firstly, I have never done drugs, never been arrested or sent to jail and I don’t drink, have worked most of my life too. I got into debt problems because the ex I was with used to mentally abuse me and the last straw was when he applied for loans (and got them) in my name, this is still TWO YEARS after we broke up, he has now moved abroad somewhere, so I cannot reach him through the courts. I buried my head thinking it would go away… It didn’t. I was asked to leave my parents home because they were both disabled, and bailiffs were starting to knock. I didn’t tell them at first because I was scared to death. (I have since got my affairs into order – the CAB are helping me deal with the debt I have been left to pay. And my parents have let me move back home.)

ANYWAY…. I am grateful to the staff who cooked and cleaned, but the staff who actually worked there (well 75% of them) are nothing but jobsworths.

I was walking through to speak to one of the staff a few days ago she took me through to the staff room, which was kitted up to the nines with the latest stuff, loads of food, loads of coffee and tea, milk, sugar, and etc. In the room next to it was a load of black bin bags marked with different womens sizes. Boxes upon boxes of shoes marked with different sizes. I asked why they were there and was there a special “shopping” day we could all look forward to. We all needed clothes, and the hostel itself needed something to cheer us all up. The staff member told me “Oh, no. That is donated clothes but there is nothing we can do with it.” – FUCKING HELL NO. She had a smirk on her face as she said it.

As I said, the cooking staff were amazing, and the cleaning staff were lovely. I took care of everything myself, except for the cooking. Staff at the hostel used to LET THESE GIRLS BACK IN when they’d just stolen from shops with their bags full and heavy – AND GET THE STUFF FROM THEM. I am nobody to judge, and I got on with everyone, but they would get preferential treatment (little beauty spa vouchers, hairdresser vouchers). I’d even seen a staff member take £10 bag of cannabis from one girl who had ADHD and Bipolar, who was raped by her father and brothers, and say to her “Thanks, that will do nicely for later.” – The girl smoked it to forget. Most of the girls there were abused in some form, and took drugs/drink to medicate themselves into forgetting for them few hours what they had endured, Its a painkiller for some, a mindkiller for most.

The Salvation Army REALLY needs to look closely at its staff, and what gets donated. Either that, or the police do.

I know a few charities that do the right thing, they are not the big charities, they are small scale interested in the people they support, they are not all the same, but I wouldn’t trust a random charity chugger in the street.

Johnny Void – another excellent article.
And as for the so-called fucking ‘Charities’ – those ‘do-gooders’ – so-called ‘helping everyone who are poor’, the ‘homeless’, the ‘elderly’ and other causes such as, so-called ‘helping children’ i.e. ‘OXFAM’, ‘Save The Children’, ‘YMCA’, ‘Salvation Army’, Tenovus Care and two million or other so-called ‘Charities’ in Britain and beyond – these bastards, unscrupulously ‘using’ workfare ‘placements’ by JCP+ desperately need investigating by the Charities Commission for probable law-breaking via their ‘licence’ to operate as a charity (through their individual ‘terms and conditions’)

All of these so-called ‘Charities’ need to have their ‘funding’ looked at and urgently audited – their ‘Chief Executives’ often have million pound+ homes/cars/luxurious living – and to cap it all – these so-called ‘Charities’ even pay no tax whatsoever.
Marie – you are right – don’t pay a single penny to them – they have managed, over many years (and also via ‘guilt-ridden’ TV adverts) to get the British public to look at them as saviours – they think that the British public are fools – and rightly so as a lot of them actually are – for paying any money to them or donating anything to them.

Incidentally, my wife said to me today – I would love to have a look at what bargains are in ‘Poundland’. I said to her – sorry, they use ‘workfare’ people and I would not go into ‘Poundcunt’ now as a matter of principle!

I have never been in poundland ever, the stuff there is just as expensive as the local supermarket anyway, just everything is smaller. So they make all the profit, and don’t pay most of their staff, probably ripping the farmers off too, who supply them. Heartless sods.

A lot of people who donate clothing to “charity” shops don’t bother washing them, knowing damn well poor benefit claimants have got to handle them and get stunk out in the process. A lot of homeless people smell nicer,they’ve got more fucking respect!

Yes, that’s true Marie. Also, the problem is that the people who ‘donate’ don’t really care where their ‘dirty laundry’ ends up – as long as is out of their ‘own’ or their ‘elderly dead relation’s homes’ and they do not have to bag them up and put them out for the dustmen to take. They probably think – ‘it’s a pity to send the ‘shit clothing’ out for the dustmen when I can give it to a ‘Charity’ instead and in so doing help some unfortunate person somewhere’. They probably do not think of/or care to wash the clothing first before sending it off (which they should!) – they just want to get rid of it all!
They do not think about the poor person at the other end who has got to sort it all out and be stunk out/gassed in the process.
Sorry if I am graphic in my description – but this is most probably the way that it actually is!

Paul, not only do you get stunk out, you get bitten by fleas that are lurking in the shitty manky ragbag clothes, which happened to me and some other slaves in a fucking cesspit chaz shop shithole, came up in red lumps we did, i hate charity shops they are all shitholes.

Deborah – That is awful but I am not too surprised according to all the stories that I have heard. As you say they seem to be nothing but terrible shitholes – using forced ‘volunteers’. It is totally disgusting in this day and age and in this, the 5th or 6th ‘richest’ country in the world.

By the TV ‘guilt-ridden’ adverts – I mean the one such as ‘in xxxx we met Kyumbai’ – this advert for some ‘African’ starving child has been going for at least 2 years now – you can ‘give £2 or £3 a month’ if you want to, but I, for one, shall not be giving a single penny of my hard-earned cash to this so-called ‘Charity’! As far as I am personally concerned, G.B. already spends far too much money in ‘Overseas Aid’.

Nienna – You are very rightly sceptical of all of them – I (many years ago) used to believe that all of these Charities were wonderful organisations, doing their very best to bring some sense of wellbeing to the underpriveledged and to those without ‘loads of money’. How wrong I was!
In my own (and others) research and actual experience, this is it seems, very far from the real truth. The REAL truth is that they play on people’s ‘natural’ emotions – helping those much less fortunate than yourself. The Charities Commission is the ‘registering and also the regulatory’ Authority to allow these ‘Charities’ to actually operate. As in a ‘Limited Company’ – these ‘Charities’ have to submit annual ‘properly audited accounts’ in order that they can continue to legally operate.
When a ‘Charity’ is registered – they have special priveleges, including in that they have NO tax liability at all – that is why so many ‘Companies’ are also ‘Registered Charities’ – NO tax payable at all.
The Directors of these ‘Companies’ are no fools. They use the law and their ‘advisers’ to help them ‘to fleece the general public’ – who, in general know fuck all about how these charlatans behave and operate.
Often, because of this they can get away with receiving huge amounts of non-taxable money and can afford to live in their mansions, with their cars and swimming pools – whilst at the same time professing to ‘help the poor and the underpriveleged’ – IT IS A SCAM AND IT ALMOST AMOUNTS TO CRIMINAL BEHAVIOUR IN MANY INSTANCES.

Today, I saw a man sat outside Tescos begging. I don’t know what brought him to that place, but it could happen to any of us couldn’t it? I asked him if he’d like a sandwich and if so which one. He said to me “Is it Ok if I have a can of coke?” I told him of course it was and went and got it for him. What I did was nothing really, but I just wanted him to know that he’s human, I’m human and that’s what you do isn’t it? Because you know, one day that could be me.

Which is why the bastard tories have done what they’ve done with welfare and low paying jobs. The message is clear “Don’t moan about having to do workfare, CWP, MWA, or working for a pittance in the worst hell hole of a job. Moan about it and that will be you outside Tesco.”

You’re right Mr Mackay, you know if I ever win the lottery (not the £25, but the one with lots of zeros on the end of it) I will hire the best lawyers in the world and take this government to ECHR for the illegal things that they have done to the poor,ill, vulnerable and disabled. God bless x

I have a personal message for Iain Duncan Smith: We will NOT forgive what you have done – we will NOT forget what you have done – at some point in the future – you WILL have to answer for what you have done to the most poor, the most vulnerable, the sick and the disabled of Britain.
You – Iain Duncan Smith are NOT going to get away with all that you have done. WE WILL CATCH YOU AND YOU WILL ANSWER FOR IT.

overburdenddonkey – yes, received and understood! But, we as humans really want to just get on with our lives – good and sometimes bad! But – when a particular ‘Government’ becomes SO restrictive and all encompassing that it is affecting one (and one’s family!) then it is sometimes necessary to strike back!
This is what happened in WW1 – but even more so in WWII (if Hitler had won.) This neo-Nazi Tory Government now is just a minor version of what developed in the 1930’s. Hitler was stopped in his tracks – and if this Government goes on in the way that they are going – then they are going to be have to be stopped too – in much the same sort of fashion.

paul
‘yes, received and understood!’ then you went on to patronize me…
fascism was not/is not cured/stopped in it’s tracks by war…labour are no better…
the need imo is for more grassroots support groups…http://www.alice-miller.com/articles_en.php?nid=47

overburdenddonkey – As I said I am sorry for what I said – I had had a few ‘drinks’ last night so I was ‘talkative’ more than usual (and indeed I should have been more thoughtful about what I wrote to you).I hope that I am now forgiven and that we can now leave bygones be bygones!
Many thanks.

There is always going to be someone sat outside Tesco. The powers that be make sure of it. They are engineered into existence and put there for a reason: pour encourager les autres – to encourage the others, so that you will think: “Thank fuck I am not in THAT situation, it could be a lot worse. At least I have a damp roof over my head and some out-of-date food in my belly. I may be trudging through the rain to get to my Community Work Placement to work for some slave-master for jack-shit but at least I am not sat outside of Tesco”.

There is always going to be someone sat outside Tesco. The powers that be make sure of it. They are engineered into existence and put there for a reason: pour encourager les autres – to encourage the others, so that you will think: “Thank fuck I am not in THAT situation, it could be a lot worse. At least I have a damp roof over my head and some out-of-date food in my belly. I may be trudging through the rain to get to my Community Work Placement to work for some slave-master for jack-shit but at least I am not sat outside Tesco”.

Sky News: Cameron will set out a ‘letter of renegotiation’ for remaining in the E.U. He wants to stay in the E.U. – but he (as I see it!) will get his own way or he will leave and take the U.K. with him.

Also: Investigations reveal that the so-called ‘missile’ in August was ‘probably a flare’.
home.bt.com/news-uk-news/british-holiday-jet-in-1000ft-missile-scare-11364015199434

If Cameron cannot ‘renegotiate’ with the E.U – he will throw all of his little boy’s toys and his ‘toy pigs’ out of his pram and ‘pull out’ of the European Uniion. He can then get rid of all of any ECHR ‘Rights’ in Britain and then bring in his own ‘British Bill of Human Rights’ – this would (by the Tories own ‘standards’) mean that there would be ‘no rights for poor people’ – but loads of rights for the rich and the priveleged of Britain!
The Tories really want to bring back Georgian/Victorian Britain – if they did this – they would definitely succeed in their dreams.
The ‘poor’ and the ‘working poor’ would turn into the Victorian version of ‘Paupers’ and if you were very poor/ill – ten you would have to ‘put’ yourself into the new ‘Private’ workhouses, run by the likes of ATOS, UNUM, MAXIMUS, CAPITA & SEETEC. The Government would give them millions of pounds of ‘Contracts’ to oversee everyone.
PLEASE BRITISH PEOPLE – DO NOT LET THIS HAPPEN TO YOU.
(WE WOULD BE OKAY – WE WOULD JUST GO OFF-GRID AND THAT WOULD BE IT)!

This government are doing just what they want and we are in Europe, so I can’t see there being much difference out of it.

We would though be only fighting our own parliament for our human and civil rights, keeping a larger force like Europe out of the equation, who by the way supported extending the pensionable age for women to 65.

The ECHR has nothing to do with the EU, it’s something that the UK signed up to in 1950. It came into effect in 1953, 20 years before the UK joined the then EC, (which was formed as the EEC, or Common Market in 1957) and came about largely at the instigation of the UK as a way of ensuring that individual citizens have rights that ensure they are protected from state abuses.

Fast forwarding, though Cameron and Co want to get rid of the Human Rights Act, and introduce a British Bill of Rights, it will still be possible to take cases to the court in Strasbourg, as happened in the past. The Human Rights Act made things easier as the cases that used to go all the way to Strasbourg could be taken UK courts instead. It’s pretty obvious that Cameron & Co want to make it much more difficult and expensive for citizens to assert their rights, which is what abolition of the Human RIghts Act would achieve.

The EU does give us rights, but that situation is if anything even more complicated as much of the legislation that protects us that originates from the EU is so intertwined with English, Scottish and Northern Ireland law that it would probably take decades to remove it.

Cameron & Co are playing on the widespread ignorance of people about the EU, and while I’m no great fan of the EU, (though I am strongly in support of pan-Europeanism) as it’s just yet another capitalist cartel, I have to recognise that it’s probably a lesser evil than UK capitalism unleashed and on its own – Cameron & Co may be stressing that UK citizens deserve a better deal, but I’m guessing that isn’t really a consideration of people like you and me, but a minority of UK citizens who also happen to be extremely wealthy and who would stand to gain by being able to exploit us even further without the mild constraints of the EU.

You asked “WILL YOUR UBI FOR INCOME DEPRIVED PEOPLE BE MEANS TESTED?”
Firstly I do not want UC or UBI.

Secondly If they are income deprived they don’t need means testing, Doh!
Then you go on to ask how do you know this?

The same way the benefits agencies know this now supposedly.
The biggest fiddlers are at the top of the tree not the bottom, that is why I want to see a free world without currency, bank branches or family trees and their inheritance taxes, they won’t be any inheritance to tax.

Yes but who do we define as poor?? by how much they get? because it doesn’t work for the disabled when everything cost an absolute fortune to live? and what someone defines as poor another man will say they are well off. And how do you access people? properly, with the right expertise and in a speedy way to get what is needed to people who need it. Are there enough experts to do the job, before people starve to death? Then someone like the Tories will get in in whatever political set up you have, there will always be someone to exploit it, to drive down the conditions, so less and less needy people will qualify. How can you make sure the most vulnerable are always looked after?

By introducing something that’s universal (not Universal – thanks IDS) – as was done with child benefit/family allowance. It was felt better to pay it to all, even including some families who really wouldn’t be depending on it, rather than the cost of means-testing everyone and risking some who really did need it not taking up the benefit. It was paid to mothers in hopes it’d have the best chance of being spent on the children (?60s). A basic income would be for every individual then (from 16?) – not set per household/couple.

UBI doesn’t add up to a row of beans. It takes no account of an individual’s circumstances whatsoever. Does everyone get the same UBI regardless of housing costs? Maybe obd will be along to answer…. 😉 or post the same old link… 😀

Or is a case that those who stay with parents/friends would receive the same UBI of an individual/couple saddled with housing costs? EVERYONE, ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE regardless of personal circumstances and individual need gets EXACTLY the same UBI. Put down that pipe of whatever you are smoking obd and do some explaining – not just post that link that tells us basically jack-shit!

Or do you set the UBI at a level that it will cover housing costs regardless if an individual has housing costs? Or would housing benefit/a housing component of UBI be applicable? How on God’s earth does paying EVERYONE, ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE EXACTLY THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY make the slightest sense? UBI is the stuff of whacky backy lol

Controlling price inflation would be absolutely crucial to the success of any Universal Basic Income project because without measures to stop the inflation of basic necessities (rent, utilities, food …) the gains that UBI would provide would soon be eroded away as price rises diminish the value of the basic income payment so that it is no longer sufficient to cover the basic costs of subsistence.

If inflation is allowed to run rampant, the benefits of Universal Basic Income would soon be transferred from the ordinary citizen that receives it, to the rentiers that take advantage by hiking the prices they charge for the provision of basic commodities and services.

Controlling Rentierism

If the rentiers are allowed free rein to profiteer from basic income provision, they will simply inflate their prices in order to soak up the entire value of basic income to cover the cost of some necessity of life (rent, transport, childcare, energy consumption). If the parasitic behaviour of rentiers is not controlled, all of the socio-economic benefits would soon be siphoned off as into the bank accounts of the most ruthlessly self-interested rent seekers. Essentially Universal Basic Income would turn into a government subsidisation scheme for the most ruthlessly self-interested, which is precisely the kind of system we have now, which is one of the main reasons people have been proposing the introduction of UBI in the first place.

The only practical way to stop this kind of rent seeking behaviour from destroying UBI would be to introduce some form of market regulation to prevent landlords, utilities companies, childcare providers and the like from massively inflating their prices in order to soak up the economic benefit of UBI for themselves.”

Seems like we would need a ‘command and control’ economy to go with obd otherwise the very same fuckers who are fucking us over at the moment would STILL be fucking us over? What about booting evil trio of conditionality, sanctions and workfare to fuck from the social security system? What say you Zac fucking Goldsmith? … 😉

Seems like we would need a ‘command and control’ economy to go with UBI otherwise the very same fuckers who are fucking us over at the moment would STILL be fucking us over? What about booting evil trio of conditionality, sanctions and workfare to fuck from the social security system? What say you Zac fucking Goldsmith? … 😉

You really socked it to these ignorant puppets on here that are in favour of UBI, as I said in JV’s last post I believe UBI should only be available to the worlds poor not the wealthy, which does mean means testing.
if we give to the rich and pay for it with TAXES FROM THE RICH LOL it would cost us more in tax collecting than any form of means testing because the rich and their army of financial advisers, accountants and free movement due to their wealth will be doing more evading and cost more than accessing the poor ( which by the way is simple 1.do you own a home – nil 2. have you got savings – nil 3. Do you pay rent or council tax (which should be nil for those on next to nothing to live on).

“STATE PENSIONS, JSA, E AND SA, DLA, PIP, ET AL all paid now and @ national rates… + a ubi will be useless unless it supplies reliable amounts of vitality giving vitals of life for all….BYE…”

If your ONLY income was UBI it wouldn’t supply jack-shit. The rentiers would take care of that whether by inflation or whatever ‘market force’ they choose to use. UBI might work in theory but it’s doubtful if it would work in practice. We don’t live in a pink, fluffy paradise obd. We live in the REAL world and in a UBI world the same exploiters would still be around; they would surely find a way to turn your fluffy idea of a UBI upside down. Saying that it would be an interesting experiment, maybe you should try it out on that vast estate you live on in the picturesque Highlands up their in Scothland. See how McHaggis and the rest of the clans get on with it. Really think UBI would plunge the poorest into even more poverty. Wouldn’t be long before it was £100 for a packet of shortbread. The toffs would soon suck up a UBI all for themselves. BYE!

“STATE PENSIONS, JSA, E AND SA, DLA, PIP, ET AL all paid now and @ national rates… + a ubi” Is a UBI ON TOP OF existing benefits? Then again you would have to have a UNIVERSAL SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFIT, but that would remove the distinction between JSA and ESA which you were arguing against lol The big question everyone is going to be asking is: “Would I/We personally be better off with a UBI” And if the answer is YES then you are obviously going to to in favour of it, and in your case obd the answer is a resounding YES.

ubi-still et al
all your questions have already been answered…….
and it’s also excellent you’ve answered some of your own questions….
‘UBI doesn’t add up to a row of beans. It takes no account of an individual’s circumstances whatsoever. Does everyone get the same UBI regardless of housing costs?’http://www.basicincome.org/news/2015/09/united-states-nobel-laureate-joseph-stiglitz-endorses-unconditional-basic-income/
STATE PENSIONS, JSA, E AND SA, DLA, PIP, ET AL all paid now and @ national rates…exploiters exist with or without UBI, as does inflation stagflation or deflation and will attempt to over turn any new/old system to suit them….+ a ubi will be useless unless it supplies reliable amounts of vitality giving vitals of life for all…..BYE…

This is absolutely Milton Friedman’s idea in Capitalism and Freedom. Hayek said it too. They supported it for the same reason Chicago School economists sometimes supported the flat tax. The idea was to purge progressiveness out of the system. Guaranteed income just spreads the welfare and social security money around, so that billionaires get just as much as paupers.

The way he set it up was to have say a $10,000 tax credit for a family of four. Every American functionally gets a $10,000 check at tax time (of course, if you owe money, it’s deducted from that $10,000). All other welfare and social programs would be eliminated. And a flat tax would replace the current progressive income tax.

It’s strange to see the left-wing in America and the UK picking up on these right-wing ideas.

This would be Zac Goldsmith’s version of a UBI. Everyone gets a UBI. Introduce a ‘flat’ tax’ (it ‘simplifies’ things … 😉 ) How do you pay for this increase in the ‘welfare pie’? Simple – increase VAT. (because the rich have more money they pay more VAT…. 😉 ) obd, you OK with this?

ubi-still et al
all your questions have already been answered…….
and it’s also excellent you’ve answered some of your own questions….
‘UBI doesn’t add up to a row of beans. It takes no account of an individual’s circumstances whatsoever. Does everyone get the same UBI regardless of housing costs?’http://www.basicincome.org/news/2015/09/united-states-nobel-laureate-joseph-stiglitz-endorses-unconditional-basic-income/
STATE PENSIONS, JSA, E AND SA, DLA, PIP, ET AL all paid now and @ national rates…exploiters exist with or without UBI, as does inflation stagflation or deflation and will attempt to over turn any new/old system to suit them….+ a ubi will be useless unless it supplies reliable amounts of vitality giving vitals of life for all…..
PS fairy ‘Then again you would have to have a UNIVERSAL SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFIT, but that would remove the distinction between JSA and ESA which you were arguing against lol’….really showing your tory red and blue colours now, arguing for means tested conditionality and sanctions aka a form of UNIVERSAL CREDIT…..
FLAT TAX YOU’RE JOKING A UBI WILL CAUSE ANYTHING BUT A FLAT TAX….BYE…

obd
You STILL haven’t explained how you propose to pay for the increase in the ‘welfare pie’. UBI is just another non-means tested, ‘universal’ benefit to sit alongside the free tv licence for over-75s, child benefit, winter fuel allowance, DLA, Motability, widow’s pensions, sure there are others…

Anyway, how are you going to pay for it? Pray do tell! Through more progressive taxation i.e the more you earn the more you pay or are you going to lump it onto the poor through regressive taxation such as the iniquitous tax on the poor known as VAT.

UBI could take many shapes and forms. We have been through it all before though with scams such as the ‘flat tax’ which even the ‘unbiased’ BBC was peddling even stopping to telling downright lies that it was already in place in countries such as Poland.

Another scam that we often hear from the right-wing is the abolishment of tax, but what they really mean is income tax. And they propose to replace it by VAT. Of course they use they argument that the rich will pay more because they spend more, but of course we all know that this is bullshit since the poor are forced to spend all of their income; the rich would just hoard more of their non-(income) taxed income.

obd, you are trying to whip people up emotionally so that they don’t think straight which is in itself suspect. This is a tactic often employed by right-wing “Tea Partiers’ over in the States so you have the situation where you have ‘trailer-trash’ arguing for an end to INCOME tax, a policy which would only benefit the rich to the detriment of the ‘trailer trash’.

It is the old right-wing guff about ‘small government’ – small enough to not have any social security provision but big enough to have cops i.e. government thugs to protect their property ‘rights’.

ubi-still et al
all your questions have already been answered…….
and it’s also excellent you’ve answered some of your own questions….
‘UBI doesn’t add up to a row of beans. It takes no account of an individual’s circumstances whatsoever. Does everyone get the same UBI regardless of housing costs?’http://www.basicincome.org/news/2015/09/united-states-nobel-laureate-joseph-stiglitz-endorses-unconditional-basic-income/
STATE PENSIONS, JSA, E AND SA, DLA, PIP, ET AL all paid now and @ national rates…exploiters exist with or without UBI, as does inflation stagflation or deflation and will attempt to over turn any new/old system to suit them….+ a ubi will be useless unless it supplies reliable amounts of vitality giving vitals of life for all…..
PS fairy ‘Then again you would have to have a UNIVERSAL SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFIT, but that would remove the distinction between JSA and ESA which you were arguing against lol’….really showing your tory red and blue colours now, arguing for means tested conditionality and sanctions aka a form of UNIVERSAL CREDIT…..
FLAT TAX YOU’RE JOKING A UBI WILL CAUSE ANYTHING BUT A FLAT TAX….i have been totally consistent with and on message @ all times….BYE…trolls….

obd troll
You didn’t answer anything; all you did was post yest another tedious link saying that someone or other ‘endorsed’ some form of UBI.

What we are trying to figure out is where the poor would end up relatively to the rich. Who would benefit from an increase in spending/saving power? Someone/a family currently on benefits? A middle-class nobhead lecturer? Or rich toffs? Who are the winners and losers under UBI. Because as sure as Eastenders follows Top of the Pops there will be winners and losers.

And what about the rich toff sat in their mansion with a £multi-million property ‘portfolio’. You would still be paying these fuckers an UBI but they simply don’t need it. But the UBI they receive will also have to be enough to provide anyone with the ‘vitals of life’.

Since UBI increases ‘social security’ expenditure overall how do you pay for it? Where does the extra ££ss come from? Or does the pie just stay the same size and those currently on benefits have to make do with a smaller share?

“The only practical way to stop this kind of rent seeking behaviour from destroying UBI would be to introduce some form of market regulation to prevent landlords, utilities companies, childcare providers and the like from massively inflating their prices in order to soak up the economic benefit of UBI for themselves.”

We would have to put into place some form of market regulation – which we don’t even have at the moment – before we even considered a UBI.

UBI wouldn’t sit well with our current ‘unregulated’ system. We would need strict rent controls, strict price controls on everything. Under UBI the poor would end up paying their UBI to some middle-class nobhead lexturer ‘buy-to-let’ landlord.

And even if these measures were introduced in tandem with UBI if wouldn’t be long before they were ‘loosened up’, ‘relaxed’ until the poor were well and truly stuffed, and of course there would be no ‘social security’ system for them to turn to.

but the ubi would be useless and fail if it did not propose framework structures to mitigate exploitation happening as it’s core purpose is to give income deprived peoples economic power…bye…trollssssss

obd
What framework structures? Haggis and whisky? UBI might be all fine and dandy as you gaze out onto the magnificent views of Loch Glenfiddoch but back to the real world because at the moment your fanciful notion of a UBI stands to be whittled down to a pittance whilst taking the ‘social security’ framework down with it.

And here is something to ponder or answer if you deign to, obd. How is the rate of UBI set? Who sets it? It it ever uprated, reviewed to make sure that it is still sufficient to meet the ‘vitalities of life’? Does it track the CPI/RPI?

And you still haven’t answered how it is going to be ‘raked back’ from the toffs? You going to increase the tax take on middle to higher earners?

And obd, bet your puppet masters thought it was going to be easy to slip this notion of UBI under the radar… 😉 It would have been easy if it hadn’t been for those meddling “trolls” 🙂

A little nighttime reading for you, Argonaut, since you seem to think you know all there is to Unconditional Basic Income….tell me where do you get this idea that income has to be linked to work or lack of it? Oh hang on, the Protestant Work Ethic. Well fuck that.

ubi-still et al
all your questions have already been answered…….
and it’s also excellent you’ve answered some of your own questions….
‘UBI doesn’t add up to a row of beans. It takes no account of an individual’s circumstances whatsoever. Does everyone get the same UBI regardless of housing costs?’http://www.basicincome.org/news/2015/09/united-states-nobel-laureate-joseph-stiglitz-endorses-unconditional-basic-income/
STATE PENSIONS, JSA, E AND SA, DLA, PIP, ET AL all paid now and @ national rates…exploiters exist with or without UBI, as does inflation stagflation or deflation and will attempt to over turn any new/old system to suit them….+ a ubi will be useless unless it supplies reliable amounts of vitality giving vitals of life for all…..
PS fairy ‘Then again you would have to have a UNIVERSAL SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFIT, but that would remove the distinction between JSA and ESA which you were arguing against lol’….really showing your tory red and blue colours now, arguing for means tested conditionality and sanctions aka a form of UNIVERSAL CREDIT…..
FLAT TAX YOU’RE JOKING A UBI WILL CAUSE ANYTHING BUT A FLAT TAX….i have been totally consistent with and on message @ all time so how many trolls is that now on my case or is it the same 2….
hmmm AREN’T RENTS ALREADY SOARING AND DRIVING PEOPLE OUT OF LDN AND INNER CITY ACCOMMODATION COME TO THAT, AND ISN’T THE WELFARE STATE AS WE KNEW IT BEING DISMANTLED BEFORE OUR VERY EYES, AND JOBS BECOMING FEWER AND FEWER, WITHOUT RADICAL CHANGE THEY’LL SOON BE NOTHING LEFT FOR US INCOME DEPRIVED PEOPLES TO GET A LEVER INTO…NO CHANCE OF HAVING THE TAXATION TOOLS AND/OR POLITICAL CLOUT TO GET OUR MONEY BACK OR SOME @ LEAST….of course UBI would be a founding pillar of an entirely new economy….the ubi would be useless and fail if it did not propose framework structures to mitigate exploitation happening as it’s core purpose is to give income deprived peoples economic power…bye…trollssssss

obd
You still haven’t answered the questions, but hey ho, what’s new 😉

And here is another one? Why can’t we have a proper functioning social security system that provides a decent income to the most income-deprived members of society without coercion and exploitation without ‘handouts’ to the rich or is that beyond the realms of possibility?

UBI is beginning to sound more and more as a Trojan horse being manoeuvred into place under cover of the ongoing attacks on social security: a Trojan horse that intends to strip away the very last ailing vestiges of social security.

‘And here is another one? Why can’t we have a proper functioning social security system that provides a decent income to the most income-deprived members of society without coercion and exploitation without ‘handouts’ to the rich or is that beyond the realms of possibility?’
WOW!!
do you think we can tell me more i’m all ears this is fantastic news..!?
🙂 🙂

obd
What are you talking about? As it has been said on here many times before abolishing sanctions, removing conditionality, and ending workfare, and doubling the dole would go a lot way to improving the lot of those at the very bottom of the economic pile. Notwithstanding that it is as plain as a pikestaff that you personally, obd, are not anywhere near the bottom of the economic pile you are not interested in any of that and instead trot out the same old response that none of that is achievable since it would take ‘political will’. And a UBI only requires the say so of the EU.

It is all about income distribution. The government doesn’t actually have any money of it’s own; it’s revenue comes primarily from taxes and loans. And then it has expenditure, and part of that expenditure is social security. You still haven’t explained how a UBI shifts income distribution towards the poorer end of the spectrum. Or would that involve going into to much intricate detail, as Maria said, or are just supposed to accept your proposal wholesale without even questioning it?

You would have to reclaim UBI from those who didn’t need it through tax otherwise those at the lower end of the income spectrum would receive a smaller slice of the welfare pie. Obviously not ideal if you were looking for an income top-up to add to your already vast pile. You got a problem with that obd? 😉

As has been said before who are the winners and losers when it comes to UBI. Or are you going to do a ‘George Osborne’ and say there will be no winners and losers.

Click on the link and get a handle on some of the arguments and history. Universal income that is unconditional is the most cost effective way of giving benefits and assures maximum take up. Once everyone has a liveable amount to live on, at least as much as the state pension then who cares if there some people get more? I don’t give a stuff if I and the poorest have enough to live on.http://basicincome-europe.org/brief-history-basic-income-ideas/

‘You would have to reclaim UBI from those who didn’t need it through tax otherwise those at the lower end of the income spectrum would receive a smaller slice of the welfare pie. Obviously not ideal if you were looking for an income top-up to add to your already vast pile. You got a problem with that obd?’
you’re a right case you are as that is what i’ve been continuously saying…
tax the rich to redistribute wealth to income deprived peoples via a UBI….

You could pull the old give with one hand, take with the other hand trick with the middle/upper income earners on PAYE – pay them UBI with one hand, and tax it back with the other hand before they got their grubby paws on it. It wouldn’t work though with an offshore account in a tax haven such as the Cayman Islands.

What about the Royal Family? Would Her Maj receive a UBI? And don’t say she wouldn’t claim it – she claimed for winter fuel allowance to heat that great big council house of hers.

Another idea would be to as a precursor to the introduction of an UBI would be to appropriate everyone’s assets – cash, investments, property, gold, paintings, cars, Barbour jacket, anything that wasn’t nailed down, but even then. This would level the playing-field and smooth the pathway to a UBI. You could go one step further and abolish the whole wages/salary system. Everyone has a UBI – and that’s it. How’s that for an egalitarian society? No income tops to augment piles of cash in bank. How does that sound, obd? … 😉

Just look at Star Trek. When did you last see Captain Kirk rummage around for some spare change for the vending machine? That’s because there was no such thing as money – as a society they had outgrown money. Everything in the vending machine was free 🙂

Closer scrutiny reveals that this expectation rests on feeble grounds indeed. For suppose first that the work test is conceived as an obligation to accept work if offered by some (private or public) employer concerned to get value for money. If the worker has no desire to take or keep the job, her expected and actual productivity is unlikely to be such that the employer will want to hire and keep her. But if the worker is formally available for work, the fact that she is not hired or that she is sacked (owing to too low a productivity, not to anything identifiable as misconduct) cannot disqualify her from a work-tested guaranteed income any more than from an unconditional basic income. The only real difference between the former and the latter is then simply that the former involves a waste of both the employers’ and the workers’ time. Alternatively, suppose that the work test is conceived as an obligation to accept a fall-back job provided by the state for this very purpose. Rounding up the unemployable and unmotivated is not exactly a recipe for high productivity, and even leaving aside the long-term damage on the morale of the conscripted and on the image of the public sector, the net cost of fitting this recalcitrant human material into the workfare mould might just about manage to remain lower than plain prison, with the cost of supervision and blunder correction overshadowing the work-shy workers’ contribution to the national product. The economic case for the work test is just about as strong as the economic case for prisons.”

As is fully recognised by no-nonsense advocates of workfare (e.g. Kaus 1990), if a willingness-to-work condition is to be imposed, it must be justified on moral or political grounds, not on the basis of a flimsy cost argument inspired by the shaky presumption that a benefit coupled with work is necessarily cheaper than the same benefit taken alone. From the fact that workfare is likely to be costlier than welfare, it does not follow that the “unemployable” should be left to rot in their isolation and idleness. There can and must be a way of helping them out of it, namely by creating a suitable structure of incentives and opportunities of a sort a universal basic income aims to help create, whether or not a willingness-to-work test is coupled with it. Setting up such a structure is costly, as we shall shortly see, but adding a work test will not make it any cheaper – quite the contrary. And the absence of such a test, therefore, cannot be what jeopardises basic income’s affordability.”

“How can you make sure the most vulnerable are always looked after?
Obviously you can’t otherwise we would still have the health and welfare system we had in the 1950’s, that is why I would much prefer an end to all currencies worldwide and bring everyone down to the same level and start producing and distributing for the sake of people and not profit as in the capitalist system – which before you start the same argument does not mean bartering.

Then explain how it would work? do we go and have a plot each and work for ourselves? or do we exchange things for other things, everyone has different talents they are best at and more productive and people appreciate, so how would that work out in your world? Really because I don’t know. And if someone is vulnerable on his own little plot does that mean we have to ignore them, or do we help them in things they can’t do, and they do the things they can that they can still do, even in a small way, is that not a form of bartering? I’m not trying to get on anyone’s nerves here, or purposely upset them as you seem to think I was trying to do. Like you want to know how UBI works in full, I want to know how your world works, and the most important thing I value is all the people be looked after the vulnerable, but anyone can become vulnerable at any time, even if they are the picture of perfect health, so I want to see a fair world where everyone counts.

The system would be run EXACTLY as it is now but more produced to take account of the people that have been going without the necessities of life.

I.e. produce and distribute, build and accommodate then the needs of people will be fulfilled – no currency, all producing and working for the good of everyone throughout the world.

What is with this sarcastic little plot crap. You are given a home to live in for the duration, which you could stay in or swap without any charges being implemented if you wish. Nobody should own more than 1 home.
You would have choice about what you want to decorate it with just as you have today, only goods would be free.

The only difference is luxury items such as yachts, fast cars etc would only be on the agenda for a holiday, race track etc which all can attain via a free lottery perhaps, so that no element of fun is taken out of life.

You were not given talents to exploit and manipulate currency and goods for yourself but to work for the benefit of others equally.

sian – thank you for putting this on also. What an absolute and disgraceful fucking shambles – these workers are probably now going to lose some of their pensions because of all of this. This is the ‘problem’ when ‘other Countries’ own our ‘industries’ – they seem to be answerable to no-one – least of all to the British Government (of the day)
And what now? – the Thais have pulled out – the Company is going into Liquidation and the ‘workers’ have lost out in all ways.
And of course, Cameron’s Government has relinquished ALL responsibility – the workers will have to ‘look after themselves the best that they can’

I remember a time under Thatcher when so called businessmen in the uk were given grants to start up businesses in deprived areas, as soon as their grants ran out, off they went leaving workers owed up to 1 months pay, so what is the difference as Sib said?

Why do people see drug-addicts, or alcohol addicts as Criminals and scum, all I see are poor people who life has hit a crisis somewhere along the line, something terrible must have triggered them to go on drugs or drink so much they come to need it. That it is a psychological response to comfort, or to get their brain from being tortured and visit somewhere different else for a while or for good, who can blame them. But withholding money from people, just in case they spend it on something society in general don’t see has important, because their lives have never been messed up enough, is cruel and heartless. And they have their own lives, just because they don’t have any money shouldn’t mean they shouldn’t be allowed to make decisions for them. And people with addictions need to know themselves they need to stop, before they stop, forcing people into doing things never helped anyone.
Homeless people should be seen with the same care as anyone else, whether they have a penny or a million pounds, in my book everyone is equal to human rights, and everyone should be granted help when they ask for it. I agree with you Johnny, you right some good stuff. And whatever political views, or party’s anyone has it doesn’t really matter as long as we look out for and care about each other.

much advice they, charities, offer is to go back to the family or get back in touch with it or old friends etc, and is built on the likes of ‘life coaches’ behaviourism cbt et al work, as if, their victims are the guilty one’s, and have to make amends, the last place they want or need to be is back with their abusers…@ best patronized, and told/implied that they have to ‘earn’ their place in our culture, and a secure home….
many prefer to live on the streets than be with family or others or in hostel’s…
enough free no strings money does put people back on their feet…
i like the work of quaker dr bob johnson…

If I give money to a homeless person I don’t care whether they spend it on bread or a brew or whatever. I give them money to show that they’re not forgotten or ignored – it’s entirely up to them what they do with their money just as it’s no one else’s business what I do with mine. It’s a short step from ‘don’t give money to beggars, it will kill them’ to ‘don’t give money to workers, they’ll only waste it’.

Also, donations of properties will be greatly encouraged & badges given to recovering investors for abstaining from property speculation. CBT can be offered to landlords battling Overcharging Syndrome, & group therapy for toffs to overcome their Taxshyness or Greed Disorder.

We could call it Mayfair & Loopholes or something equally patronising. So what do you all say? Sure beats throwing cornflakes! 🙂

How vile,realy rank,cider crack…..only a pair of dim nomarks middleclass aresholes could be so stupid ….typical stupid middleclass,sneaky ,snide and stupid …clueless,the homeless need a fuck lot more than cheap gloves and coats I read the Huffington posts article about those to dumb bitches …..yeah a homeless person came up to us in berlin ……….and we said ……no…..then we got thinking …….wot can we do……homeless people dont need the help of middle class cunts like that ……we said no……that tell everybody all they need to know about thease bitches …..its nonescence there just playing pretending to play charity until there bored ..there …pop up shop..puuuuke tells of there intentions ,they don’t give a shit about the homeless they don’t …when I saw that vulnerable young boy terrified and crying sat there begging surrounded by ……white middleclass affluent bullshit wannabecool hipsters and aresholes from essex …….this poor boys age ….he was sobbing realy sobbing …..those cunts didn’t even acknowlage him ,he was completely Invisable to them as he would be to the two vile aresholes with there fucking cider crack pop up shop ,people have no concept of the terror and misery of being homeless ,I was street homeless for just under a year in London and I had to do whatever it took to survive includeing rent I was lucky my situation changed and I got out of that situation relitively unscathed but most don’t and to them I say God bless

All I say is, let’s start a “charitee” together. Here is a slightly updated version of my earlier idea:

Picture activists knocking on mansions’ doors with rattling collection cans asking residents to give generously so the homeless can get what they truly need…
…HOMES! The price list can be amended but here’s a suggestion:

Also, donations of properties will be greatly encouraged & badges given to recovering investors for abstaining from property speculation. We can call it 12 Steps off the Property Ladder. CBT is to be offered to landlords battling Overcharging Syndrome, along with group therapy for toffs overcoming Taxshyness or full-blown Compulsive Greed Disorder.

The Charities in collusion with the Government are driving people into utter r destitution. Even with a roof over your head how the fuck can you keep warm, pay your bills, buy food, have an hot meal, afford to bathe or do laundry when your JSA has been Sanctioned and your’e living on £40 a week Hardship if you’re lucky, and have no gas or electric?

yeah it’s a grind, and hard enough on paltry full jsa… appeal sanctions…also food bank voucher is a possibility, of course one has to be able to cook the food…i think it’s 3 days food, 3 X’s/yr not much i know, and often not good if one has special dietary needs… even worse when one doesn’t have basic husbandry needs, expensive utilities, and no warm clothing etc…yes and one’s welfare SS needs being met should not be a matter of negotiation either, but it unfortunately is…. http://www.edinburghagainstpoverty.org.uk/node/142

I’m about to get a 4 week Sanction, which could continue unless I do the unthinkable & participate in CWP. Food parcels are no use without electricity to cook with, and tinned Spam is no use to me, a lifelong Vegetaran. But at least i have a bed to lie in until I am hospitalized with Malnutrition or Hypothermia

What do you do if you get a 3 year sanction, if you can only go 3 times a year? I thought that if you were sanctioned for that long you could still go. If you’re on a 3 year sanction they just starve you until you die then?

Complete starvation leads to death within 8 to 12 weeks. There are isolated cases of individuals living up to 25 weeks without food. Starvation begins when an individual has lost about 30% of his normal body weight. Once the loss reaches 40% death is almost inevitable

The Tories want as many to die as possible because in the Tory mindset if poor people die it is their own fault for not finding a job. All the dirty vile Tory cares about is those they see as below them stop claiming benefits. Thatcher lives on in Smith, Osbourne, Cameron, IDS and Freud and all the others who want to demonize and destroy the weakest in society, the politicians are utter filth.

I don’t know who was working in the job centre the many times I have been sanctioned but I never even got hardship allowance, even though I applied.
My housing benefit was stopped also and the council staff thought it was hilarious that they could make you walk miles to the council offices to fill in forms to have your housing benefit re-instated.
I hope I see all of them on the bones of their arse.

The safety net has been completely removed. “compassionate Conservatism” my fucking arse. IDS should swing for what he has done. Cameron, Osborne & Freud too. The Class War has never been so brutal. Life in this poxy country is fucking medieval. But hey ho, its Rememberance Day, so hip hip hooray for Great Britain, & God Save the fucking Queen. So long as the Peasants know their place, it’s all well in UKplc.

obd
sian clearly said what? that SANCTIONS KILL is a troll? Not another troll ffs.
You need a certain ‘intellectual superiority’ to spot trolls though 😉 , so many of them slip under us simple folks radar… 😦 😀

Hey Sian – perhaps you are one of the Job Lot working in the job centre and probably another troll yourself as I have not seen your name on here over the years, but of course some of us so called trolls change our names to keep posting.
You are a number 1 troll.

And they wonder why people are driven to despair. The Chatterering Classes wring their hands, “isn’t it awful” “why do they drink?” “why do they take drugs?” “why are they homeless?” “more Claret dear?”

It could be worse, I could be working at I Interserve! That would be a fate worse than death. Too soul-destroying for words. Just entering the building sucks the life out of you. I hope the fucking place burns down.

The trouble is sanctions kill is its a chouise between doing the workfare or being sanctioned and going hungry and how vile is that ? I’m on a work program myself at the moment thankfully only another two weeks to go …..but they will be back on my case I feel like im backed into a corner ,which I am they have not just myself but thousands by the short and curlys and unless we all get work ie real paying work ,paying a real life wage meaning we can come of benefits lol which is very difficult when your 50 as I am or older …..its like seeing a unicorn…..myself like thousands of others were haveing to make the best of a bad situation ie haveing to do workfare and I realy wish something would give …..but what are you gonna do if you get sanctioned unless you have friends and family to support you through the sanction…….your fucked ,how you gonna eat ,cook ,…..and if your renting in the private sector and mr landlord dosent get his rent your out ………on the street……..and from my own experience that is fucking terrifieing its like a sword of damaclease hanging over everyone’s heads and its fucking vile but until something gives we’ve got to roll with the punches and I hate to say take it….I’m a hardened old bag I can take it just but a lot of people can’t and to them god bless try and get through it ……….damoxxxxccc

That’s the whole reason they brought in all this conditionality; to impose ever increasing hoops to jump through in order to instill feelings of fear and insecurity into people’s lives. So that they’re forced into becoming a modern day slave working for a company or charity for nothing.

I know Damo, i’m in the same boat , over 50, no one to support me, no options but endless Workfare shite or Sanctions. But no matter what you do it never ends. I did New Deal 5 times, then the Work Programme, then Mandatory Work Activity, now its Community Work Placements. There is no end to this shite & I may as well let them sanction me for the full 3 yrs & have done with it.

Good article again JV. This fucking country has gone to the dogs under the Tories. There are loads of homeless people where I live right now. In fact I saw one the other day who only looked about 10 years old! It makes me feel so sad. It’s bad now, but what’s it going to be like in 5 years time?

Perhaps something we should be encouraging, as it means the Tories could be on the verge of imploding. That would certainly take the heat off Corbyn & Crew. Corbyn et al may not be the most radical movement on earth, and they are far from being as radically ‘left-wing’ as I would like, but compared to most of the crap we’ve had to endure for the past 36 years it’s a bit of a breath of fresh air, breathing space to consider better ways of living life, considering just how a system of UBI could be made to work, or just how do we deliver an eduction system designed to empower the individual and not to condition a workforce for exploiters, or a system of social care that is actually embedded in our communities instead of overlaid and controlled by the state.

Perhaps something we should be encouraging, as it means the Tories could be on the verge of imploding. That would certainly take the heat off Corbyn & Crew. Corbyn et al may not be the most radical movement on earth, and they are far from being as radically ‘left-wing’ as I would like, but compared to most of the crap we’ve had to endure for the past 36 years it’s a bit of a breath of fresh air, breathing space to consider better ways of living life, considering just how a system of UBI could be made to work, or just how do we deliver an eduction system designed to empower the individual and not to condition a workforce for exploiters, or a system of social care that is actually embedded in our communities instead of overlaid and controlled by the state.

Sanctions kill what we need to do ,we and thousands of others is find somehow a part time job lol yes I know its like a needle in a haystack esp at our age and with all the compitition but our backs against the wall there’s no chouise ……until the situation changes we have to play the game and try and remain positive ……..here comes the harsh reality bit s anctions are killing people we all know and see this and if you or I at our age get a three year sanction we are fucked maybe get help from family or friends for a little while but there is the very real possibility of loading everything and ending up street homeless …..the though terrifies me I was street homeless in my early twentys your more rubbery at that age you can duck and dive and bounce back you can use your youth to hustle and do what you do to get what you need …..post 50 its a whole other story its fuck barbarian land out there ….people don’t last long now …so sanctions kill you like I and thousands of others have got to either find this mythical part time job or stick with the work fare I hate to say it andfucking bad is this its workfare or homelessness …..don’t let them sanction you……good luck…..cd

I live in acton west London were a small terrece house is over half a million pounds yet on the streets specificly Acton high road there are homeless people everywere right sponge the uxbridge rd from shepards bush to ealing the poor bastards are everywere …..even Thatcher didn’t fuck with the wellfare state or the NHS and even Thatcher wouldn’t have aristocratic public school boys in her cabbinett Tory wets she called them ……so it seems we are in the age of the revenge of the public school boy and boy they realy are haveing a revenge……..but the tide is turning there is a fury bubbling up I was on the million mask march and the fury was very real even the police were scared those young people were switched on informed and not scared the clock is ticking for the tories people just have to put there armour on and roll with the punches …….the end is comeing for the Tories

I have no idea what the point of this ridiculous article is but all it does – along with previously attacking a couple of people that own a gimmicky cafe – is betray your own prejudice. How are you any better than the ruling class when you have a go at people because you perceive they come from a social background you don’t like. How is that any different than the Tories?

You smear these two because you think they might fail or that their idea doesn’t meet your approval? Give me one piece of evidence that demonstrates this other than your ridiculous bigotry?

ASK YOURSELF – WHO CARES ABOUT YOU?
Clearly, the Tory government does not. In fact along with the whole fucking establishment, they are at war with a class of society it hates. Whether it’s the homeless, jobless or disabled, they are simply the target of choice for the Tory bastard brigade because they can’t fight back.

Most of the media of course will not expose this criminal injustice as Cameron protected it during the Levison Inquiry. Most spineless charities look the other way because it’s safer to do so rather than taking on the government. Equally, the Labour movement has it’s limp dick hanging out whilst the people it’s supposed to represent are being murdered by the thousands by the worst Tory government in history. If your own government does not care about you then you should replace it. Democracy in the UK is designed to protect the establishment, yet at the same time harms the poorest in society. Anarchy is the only solution against this Nazi oppression!

I haven’t got much money myself, but when I see homeless people sitting in in the streets, I’ll give em some spare change, or buy them a pasties or a sandwich, NO CHARITY ON THIS EARTH WILL GET A PENNY FROM ME AGAIN!

A Place of Residence is a Basic Human Right so Yes to Housing the
Homeless there is the Property Available in the United Kingdom to
House the Homeless so End the Waiting Lists and Give the Oppressed
Human Dignity

I think about this issue often and today passed a homeless person who I gave £1 to and we had a chat. I don’t give a flying one what he spends it on. If I was homeless I would want to spend it on what I choose without someone telling me what is best for me. Just because you’re homeless doesn’t mean you should be choiceless.

It`s because the DWP are contracting out their FOI requests to be answered by a PLC called Customer Compliance Department . That is why they want to scrap FOI`s because the DWP are spending so much on a contractor the answer the questions badly. Not Fit For Purpose !!!

The DWP has no responsibility to their contractors !!! Putting pressure on ATOS KILLERS was getting the contract very nervous & the DWP had to show they were in charge & take responsibility. So DWP MAXIMUS KILLERS. G4S KILLERS You taking notice now DWP.
IDS V Maximus [Round 1]
Maximus Vs IDS [Round 2}

Pushy bike flew to the Moon and back. DWP Interstellar Suicide Project. Socks on back to front but who cares when the ice-cream van calls. DWP high on fudge cakes. Rat race comes to town in blacked-out Limo.

You don’t half talk a load of old cobblers, Johnny. I’ve known loads of homeless people and, without exception they have been societies dross. They are never grateful, and usually have an overwhelming sense of entitlement; most of them were alcoholics or drug addicts before becoming homeless; that’s what actually led to their being without an abode in the first place. By and large, they are just wasters. Give them a home, they will inevitably wreck it, they’ll drive their neighbours to despair and, they’ll end up back kipping on the streets again, putting on The Sad Face, sitting there in their kagoule and woolly hat and saying “Please, can you spare some change?” in that deliberately pathetic and wheedling monotone. Trust me, you just can’t help them…

Here come the trolls…
Eh, Roger – one question. Are you sympathetic to kids who’ve been sexually abused? You are? So how come you’re not sympathetic when they end up using drugs or booze to wipe put the memories? I’ve worked in the field so I know what I’m talking about…oh hang on, you’re not sympathetic? Well, that figures…

Roger – Point is none of know if we’ll become homeless at some point in our lives. Also spare a thought for the 10 year homeless girl in our town who jumped off a 30 foot motorway bridge due to her circumstances and judgmental people such as yourself.

Is that the best you got Damo, a tiny cock jibe? How big is your cock, Damo, 5 – maybe 6 inches? you pathetic geek. I’m not even offended by your laughable attempt at a put down, fact is, is if I was gay, which I’m not, then you’d love my small but perfectly formed wood in your ass.

Hugh Fearnley Whittingstall on his TV programme has just said that Britain throw s out 7 tons of old/used clothes every 10 minutes!
He also advised rather than than give them to the dustmen – why not give them to the charity shops! – if they cant get rid of them they could be ‘recycled’ and made into something different – such as a mop-head!
I just only hope that poor workfare people don’t have to deal with it all!
(But he did forget to say that they should be washed first) EEEuugghhhh!

Paul Hugh has probably never worked in a charity shop before and if he did, they probably know better than to give him horrible underwear to wash, because they would find themselves on his next programme. He has a point though about waste, some people buy a top and rather than go through the effort of washing it, throw it away after one days use, then buy another. Its a terrible waste and people ought to value their clothes more, fashion changes way too often today for people to get some use out of their clothes, but I am still wearing clothes from 18 years ago. Then when they have had their use they make good rags for cleaning with, then you will find there is hardly anything left to throw away.

Maria – yes you’re right on all of the points mentioned. I myself admit that I still wear some clothes that are between 10 & 13 years old – and they are still wearing well! Some of the modern more clothing probably would’nt last more than a few months!
And, yes very old clothes make very good rags for cleaning also.

but the worst of it is people who waste so much food, and worse than that they throw food away that hasn’t even gone off, such terrible waste of things that if people were more sensible, poverty wouldn’t be such a big problem as it is now, surely if that food was saved and distributed properly extreme poverty at least wouldn’t exist.

What’s the point of building a moby fone built-like-a-brick and designed to last a lifetime? Consumers always hanker after the ‘latest’ – even if it is crap? Windows 10 anyone 😉

And as Christmas is fast approaching how many jobless households do you think are just about to bin their perfectly good working order 80 inch colour plasma ‘flatscreen’ TV with for a bendy OLED 64K one?

@flyhawks
To give a good example, during my 1950/60s childhood days we had a thriving radio and TV industry producing expensive, craftsman-build merchandise designed to last. Because of the initial expense, we also had a thriving radio and TV repair industry, shops that often doubled up as cycle shops selling radio and cycle accessories. One of Thatcher’s (spit) casualties of her anti-union, anti-manufacturing policies. Now look at nowadays, cheap, far-Eastern consumer tat that is irreparable and just contributes to land-fill. And yes, I do repair and refurbish vintage radios for others.

Good on you wildswimmerpete for repairing and refurbishing vintage radio’s for others, when I used to have my video repaired it cost me almost as much as the video so found it cheaper to buy a new one.
I would prefer to have good quality products that last, but the capitalist system will not allow it.
It is only the rich that can afford to have goods made out of the materials they want and to the specifications they want these days.

nah tried that, the last straw came, when they wanted me to go away on a disabled programme for 5 weeks, I have to be at home and look after my elderly parents for some of the day, I can’t leave them for five weeks. Bastards know we are vulnerable people and were looking to exploit that just to get rid of me.

Nothing unusual. it’s why those of us on JSA don’t receive a reply after having applied for a job.

London Zoo advertises for graduate to help run global project unpaid

Candidate expected to monitor progress of major conservation plan full time in return for £5 a day for lunch and a Travelcard

Tanya de Grunwald, the founder of the campaigning careers website Graduate Fog, which first highlighted the unpaid role, said there were concerns that charities are increasingly employing volunteers to carry out the same jobs as paid workers by taking advantage of a legal loophole in minimum wage law, which allows charities to claim their unpaid interns are “voluntary workers” and therefore not entitled to pay.

At what level would the individual and unconditional basic income be pitched. If it is at the level of the guaranteed income currently enjoyed by each member of a couple, the amount is bound to fall far short of what is needed by someone who has no option but to live alone. If it is at the level currently awarded to a single person, the cost implications, in some countries at any rate, are phenomenal. This is again not just a matter of budgetary cost. There is an irreducible distributive cost in the sense of a dramatic shift of purchasing power from one-adult to bi- or multi-adult households. And there is also an irreducible economic cost, owing mainly to a substantial increase in the marginal rates required in order to fund the outlays for this enhanced basic income. There is therefore, in the short term at any rate, a dilemma between giving a fully individualised but inadequate basic income and giving a sufficient but household-modulated one (see Brittan & Webb 1991, Brittan 1995). Note, however, that this dilemma is not to be confused with a dilemma between making some households unacceptably poor (with too low an individual basic income) and subjecting all households for an indefinite period to a control of their living arrangements (with an adequate, but household-dependent basic income). Even under short-term cost constraints, the latter dilemma does not hold, for it is possible to conceive of a strictly individual but inadequate “partial” basic income for all, combined with a much shrunk residual means-tested household-tested social assistance for the reduced number of those who, despite the floor provided by the household’s basic income(s), do not earn enough to reach the income threshold as from which means-tested assistance is switched off. [Fig. 7] Providing it is not conceived as an immediate full substitute for existing social assistance, such a partial basic income thus provides an attractive way of handling both of the real cost problems – those stemming from incentives for low earners and individualisation – which a full basic income would raise (see e.g. Gilain & Van Parijs 1995 for a microsimulation of the distributive impact of such a partial basic income in the case of Belgium).

obd
You haven’t thought UBI through, you haven’t given it one iota of thought. You have just picked up some idea from that trashy red-top rag you read and thought: “That’ll suit me”. Absolutely no thought whatsoever given to how it would impact on various individual household. You are as bad as IDS and his Universal Credit crap!

there is a lot more to life than money and you won’t find happiness through it. Most people in this world don’t care about having a stack full of money, and they don’t care if some people have more. you have not answer my questions, instead you have shifted to another account, your all the same person and every time you write something you use the same words, so we know its you. I had a treasure yesterday, it was a great treasure, and today I lost it. And before you get ideas again of me having pots of money, your wrong because the treasure I lost was my mother. Stop stalking OBD, fair enough you don’t agree with him, but leave it at that. Take my previous advise and look in the mirror and ask yourself do you like what you see? you can’t force your views on other people it is wrong.

there is little chance of a UBI being implemented anytime soon, maria…
what they actually object too is the comparative twixed what is now and what could be in a just society…they don’t like people to be empowered with ideas above their precarious class station…
right wing govt suits them…

Since when the fuck did replying to a comment on a blog – you notice that great big REPLY button become ‘stalking’. It is really quite sad when you have to resort to DWP wordplay. Really fucking sad and pathetic! And btw, stop stalking your work coach!

You’re clearly confusing Universal Chaos with Unconditional Basic Income which has fuck all in common with IDS heap of crap. The key is in the word Unconditional. IDS’s has so many strings attached you could hang yourself. In fact the word Universal in his nasty little scheme is anything but…

UBI can also come with strings attached such as a ‘work-test’, a requirement to take up what a bureaucratic decides as a ‘suitable’ job, or a requirement to undertake ‘community work’. If you follow this through you could end up with a grotesque and absurd situation whereby a jobseeker in rented accommodation was performing ‘community work’ for their UBI whilst their next-door lecturer neighbour living in a mortgage-free house was also receiving exactly the same amount in UBI!

It is mentioned here if you can be bothered to read it: It does argue that it may not be ‘cost-effective’ to force ‘recalcitrant human material’ into workfare. But neither are current DWP workfare schemes necessarily cost effective either. They exist solely as a means of punishing claimants and driving them off benefits.

Closer scrutiny reveals that this expectation rests on feeble grounds indeed. For suppose first that the work test is conceived as an obligation to accept work if offered by some (private or public) employer concerned to get value for money. If the worker has no desire to take or keep the job, her expected and actual productivity is unlikely to be such that the employer will want to hire and keep her. But if the worker is formally available for work, the fact that she is not hired or that she is sacked (owing to too low a productivity, not to anything identifiable as misconduct) cannot disqualify her from a work-tested guaranteed income any more than from an unconditional basic income. The only real difference between the former and the latter is then simply that the former involves a waste of both the employers’ and the workers’ time. Alternatively, suppose that the work test is conceived as an obligation to accept a fall-back job provided by the state for this very purpose. Rounding up the unemployable and unmotivated is not exactly a recipe for high productivity, and even leaving aside the long-term damage on the morale of the conscripted and on the image of the public sector, the net cost of fitting this recalcitrant human material into the workfare mould might just about manage to remain lower than plain prison, with the cost of supervision and blunder correction overshadowing the work-shy workers’ contribution to the national product. The economic case for the work test is just about as strong as the economic case for prisons.”

obd
What exactly are you proposing obd? You don’t say! End all social security benefits? And pay EVERY adult over the age of 16 EXACTLY £x (enough to provide the ‘vitalities of life’) UNCONDITIONALLY and leave them to get on with it? Is that it in a nutshell? YES or NO? Or have us simple folk all missed something?

UNCONDITIONAL MEANS UNCONDITIONAL…a UBI IS a taxable SS benefit….to provide reliable supplies of vitality giving vitals of life for all income deprived peoples….it does need explaining it speaks for it’s self it’s in it’s title ffs…..yes leave people alone to get on with it if you need it splet out as you obvs do…ie no strings income ie income with no strings ie income no strings….ie income with no expectations in return from anyone else…

Exactly, OBD. And if you want to earn on top of that you can…it’s a win-win situation. A bit like an old age state pension but for everyone, kids included. You’d have to be a bit unhinged or a Tory to oppose it…

Exactly, flyhawks. Paid UNIVERSALLY but with CONDITIONS attached to those who were dependent on it – the poor i.e. “community work”, “work-test”, “having a accept a “suitable” job, “work programmes” etc. In other words Universal Credit paid to everyone and acting as a nice income top-up for the middle-classes/rich whilst the poor get to suffer the “conditional” part 😉 Same old same old shit with a different spin packaged with a pink ribbon and bow.

Instead of a UNIVERSAL benefit why not pay the current CONDITIONAL benefits such as JSA, ESA UNCONDITIONALLY. Why the clamour for more UNIVERSAL e.g paid to the middle-classes/rich benefits? We don’t need more Winter Heating Allowances and all the other shit paid to rich fuckers! To fuck with a UNIVERSAL benefit paid to everyone but still with the same old CONDITIONS attached to those unfortunate enough to be at the bottom the economic totem pole.

http://basicincome2013.eu/en/index.html
European Citizens’ Initiative for an Unconditional Basic Income….
typical i post a link the trolls condemn it without even having read it…if i post a link they say it’s useless and demand that i explain….
now as you demand evidence this means that you CLEARLY DON’T READ THE LINKS POSTED THAT PROVIDE IT, THERE IS NOTHING MORE THAT I CAN DO, DO ABOUT IT, MAKE YOUS READ THEM, OR ADD…
anybody think that they’re only trying to cause trouble…oh, wait! they are…!!

As far as I can see Social Insecurity ended years ago…hence the name got culled. And excuse me if I missed something but didn’t SS have conditions attached? Yes, so you’ve shot yourself in the foot once again…

See, there you go, putting words into people’s mouth again – where does anyone say that they oppose an UBI on principle. What we are trying to do is flesh out the detail BEFORE we make up our minds. Bread and butter stuff like how does it affect the pound in peeps pockets/standard of living? Is is just another middle-class/rich/Zac Goldsmith scam like so many others – you know like ‘workplace pensions’ – and all that shit to fuck over the poor?

And it obvious to anyone reading this that YOU are a Tory! YOU are a Tory!

That’s rich coming for you. Never voted in Tory in my life. Spend all day campaigning against them…the Tories will never go for UBI because they want conditions attached and they believe in the Protestant work ethic like you. Well, fuck that

And that is everything gone! JSA, ESA, pensions, child benefits, DLA, widow’s pensions, Motability…. everything gone to be replaced by a UBI. Or is UBI in ADDITION to existing benefits? Answer the questions, obd!

UBI doesn’t make sense if Neighbour A has rent to pay but neighbour B is mortgage free with a vast Buy-to-Let scumlord property ‘portfolio’ yet they receive exactly the same UBI. Is housing not a ‘vitality of life’ then? 😉

The only person that can’t work UBI out OBD is you, that is why you are asking everyone else to point out it’s flaws, then ignore them to save face.
You never condemn the actions of your mates who are causing the reactions from us, then you state it is because they are not attacking you.
HOW SELF CENTRED CAN A MAN BE?

fly
But obd is trying to twist things and make out that Universal and Unconditional are one in the same, and that Universal Basic Income would be paid unconditionally when it doesn’t even say that on the tin!

UNIVERSAL Basic Income – an income to-up middle-class/rich which would dilute the value of existing benefits while the same poor sods would be expected to perform “community work” take any old shit “job”, attend “work programmes” as part of their “claimant commitment” to receive UNIVERSAL Basic Income.

Or are you proposing to keep the current UNCONDITIONAL benefits (which the middle/classrich claim 😉 ) – child benefits, DLA, Motability, widow’s pensions, winter fuel allowance, pensions and allow a UBI ‘top-up’, and scrap the current CONDITIONAL benefits – JSA, ESA, Housing Benefit/Council Tax benefits. So instead of JSA/ESA and Housing Benefits a claimant would receive an UNCONDITIONAL Basic Income (enough to provide the ‘vitalities of life 😉 ) ? Is this the deal? Pray do tell?

@Hawksthatfly
Many if not most those on the State pension also claim Pension Guarantee Credit which is means-tested ie conditional. Bear in mind the (un)Priti Patel has also mooted that pensioners “do community work” for their (already fully paid-for) pensions. In other words Workfare!! Everyone has to work for Tory donor corporates.

You’re wasting your time, OBD. Guy Fawkes doesn’t understand the unconditional bit because he confuses it with IDS’s UC which is in any case a misnomer because there’s nothing universal about it either….

Is that that disabled woman who was on here a while back, a right troll. Was her name “Kathyrn”. She was in a newspaper article. Stayed in a bungalow in Southend. She was a proven liar too. Think she might have popped up again. Need a memory jog.

Oh ffs,flyhawkes or guyfawkes or whatever you call yourself – I know who you are and you still aren’t getting the difference between Universal Chaos and Unconditional Basic Income which has nothing of the sort attached to it as it’s not ever been introduced here. It’s not about ‘conditions’ or ‘work’ – it’s about every human being having what they are entitled to: food, warmth, shelter – what could you possibly object to about that?

It’s you that’s talking bs. If you don’t know the difference now between the two I can’t be arsed to explain it to you because it sounds too much for you….

It’s about every human being having what they are entitled to: food, warmth, shelter – what could you possibly object to about that?

And btw don’t try and put words into peeps mouth you smarmy fucker. Nobody said they object to human being receiving food, warmth and shelter. You are coming out with the same smarmy that you would expect of a jc work roach. You work for the jobcentre, work programme ‘provider’? Bye troll!

Hahaha no I’m not a troll but what a nasty little thick troll you are. JC? hahahha – how stupid are you? Not been near one in years. Carry on spitting your dummy out because your one little bwain cell can’t qwite wead or understwand, diddums

Hey OBD, I’ve decided not to feed the troll(s). Let’s carry on a civil conversation between the two of us and ignore the visual tinnitus…they’ll soon die of boredom and go somewhere else to play their playground actics…

You are always trying to trump up support for your twisted depraved view on who and what people are in your opinion, what they think especially if they don’t agree with you and trying to enforce your own twisted codes of rules and regulations on here.
Why don’t you just F OFF because I was posting on here even before you were.
You are a big Jessie.

I know exactly the difference between unconditional basic income and universal basic income, and as far as I am concerned neither would be unconditional.
I didn’t study politics and economics to be dictated to by a moggy.

Dummy ,elbow grease whatever your name is this week why do you keep comeing back ????? Every one bitches you out and tells you to and tells you to get lost ……you are as thick as fucking pig shit as well as being a chronic inadaqute who’s never made anyone come or ever been kissed ……so do us all a favour take your tired eek …..and fuck off,you cunt

If you are not bothered about money and who has what, then why complain that the greedy rich in the form of conservatives are manipulating public money to itself and away from the working class poor.
You talk like a twopence halfpenny book.

nell-guy/EL
but of course this is obviously what your trolling now is all about, because you think that you can insult anyone in anyway you choose which is why both of you were banned from posting on tom pride and one of yous is/was heavily moderated on tom pride… you nitpick etc @ people, take the piss out of other folk…

I was banned from Tom pride site for calling him a puppeteer and if I retracted what I called him I could come back, I refused because he was a puppeteer.

You are the one that is making judgements about my comments to people some in jest some answering not so funny posters, whatever I do has nothing to do with you on this site, you and your moaning cronies are the ones that are in favour of behaviourism and banning.

I most certainly am not a liar but you have proved yourself to be a liar, an evader and a hypocrite. over and over again.
If I change names it is because I am constantly getting moderated not banned because of people that can give it but can’t take it.

Far from being a liar, I am bluntly honest which is not to the taste of those that don’t like the truth.

you vowed to shut this site down what’s this if not spite, what is make your points without spite…people have opinions about your behaviour and they express them you call people weak etc coz they won’t take your shit and serve you…so it’s you who can’t take it or you wouldn’t insult people like you do…!!!

No I vowed to have this site closed down because JV whoever he is was taking instructions from the likes of you and your cronies rather than live up to the posts he is supposed to write and be unbiased in his judgments.
At times it was like the tails wagging the dog, the tell tales that is.

What about what your friend moggy has been saying to others – more one sided condemnation from you.
The only thing good about your friend Moggy is they knows how to swear so it would be impolite not to swear back at him/her.

Isn’t it funny? I have never met you and only had the odd debate with you on here but suddenly we’re friends! Not that I mind you being called a friend at all but just goes to show how some people make 27 from 2 + 2. it’s the same kind of (lack of) logic that doesn’t understand UBI. Perhaps they’re government plants 😉

“There is no biased judgements if we are kicked we react”.
Actually it was you and all your cronies that were ganging up on me and doing all of the kicking, I did react but jv chose the side of the gangsters.

I didn’t bring up the subject of UBI, I threw it up literally because it makes me sick how people who are appeasers and fawners of the rich and famous are more interested in manners than political morals in what they choose to adopt as policy.

but why the outbursts of vitriol UBI is not about to happen anytime soon, so why does the principle of it threaten you so much now…@ least you admit that you spew up, but not with facts but tantrums about how you don’t like the idea…. you feel threatened and challenged by another’s reasoning coz it’s not yours or don’t suit you…so what have you got to lose is what we now ask….why is it your way or the highway why do you want to dominate everything, why not do your own blog rather than try fuck up someone else’s…??

What you say makes perfect sense as does all that I have read about UBI. No conditions, no necessity to work, universal, no means-testing. People who want anything less are supporting the status quo. I am happy to debate with you because you are capable of a civilised and intelligent debate 🙂

The trouble with you OBD is you can’t admit when you are wrong and have been proved wrong by me and others over and over again with viable reasons given as to why UBI is crap not UC that you and mog are trying to claim we are confused about.
She should be given to a Chinese restaurant if they could find her palatable.

The Money Chucked Away on EU Membership and Overseas ” Aid ”
can Better be Spent on Public Services here in the UK

As for ” European Human Rights ” they did Not Save David Clapson and
have Not Housed the Homeless Nor have they Stopped Tax Breaks for
Millionaires whilst the Poor are Oppressed by Poverty and Deprivation
in Tory Nazi Britain

Money is not chucked away on EU membership, NoOppression. That’s the kind of immigrant-phobic UKIP Daily Smear propaganda Tories love for you to believe.

Nor are they squandered on Overseas Aid. If anything we in the 1st world have a duty to pay up for all the indebting, starvation & slavery that we caused in the 3rd world – all for your comfort to buy food from Africa or goods produced in China, Bangladesh or India.

A membership in EU (or rather: European Economic Area EEA) ensures that citizens in any of these countries have a freedom of movement. This enables expatriate Britons to claim benefits in France, Germany, Sweden, etc. where the rate of benefits are usually higher & their welfare states more secure. Do you really want these people to be stripped from their benefits & forced back to UK?

IDS has already violated EU laws by infringing on the EEA citizens rights to benefits in UK. Apparently EU has taken Britain to court over this. And Cameron wants nothing more than to abolish EU Human Rights laws. These are the real reasons why Tories hate EEA. Because EEA citizens are expected to be treated equally & adhere to greater human rights standard than UK currently provides.

So if you really believe in No Oppression, NoOppression, then stop oppressing people from overseas. Instead educate yourself on what immigrants are facing today. Cancelling that Daily Smear subscription would be a start.

Yep Plebrise, there are 2 sides to EU but the reason the Tories want to leave it is a) because they want to get rid of the good bits ie the social charter and human rights which protect workers and Trade Union rights (what’s left of them) and b) they are pandering to the xenophobia of the kippers

https://fullfact.org/economy/cost_eu_membership_gross_net_contribution-30887
‘In 2013, UK government gross contributions were £14 billion. After rebates and other receipts, our net contribution was £8.6 billion, or about £24 million a day on Nigel Farage’s framing….’ and not £55m/day as many claim…. uk ss benefits unclaimed £16bn….+ whats been robbed from the over 60’s… + in trade it’s more than made up for…. and then what the uk spends on war….a pity they’re not, you’re not, making as much fuss about unclaimed bens etc….ho-hum….

The poorest UK households are locked out of the cheapest deals on energy and phone tariffs – but some councils are taking action.

Being poor comes at a cost. The best bank accounts, borrowing rates and energy tariffs are all reserved for people who are in a position to shop around. And if you do not have a clean credit file or access to up-to-date technology you can expect to pay more for almost everything you buy.

“Thought the DWP and its hand picked assassins couldn’t get any lower?”

Think again………….

Their latest ruse is to let you undergo a medical with the chosen cemetery fillers, ATOS or MAXIMUS.
You have asked to have your medical recorded because it is being performed by an ex bedpan washer or someone of dubious character, a paramedic or first aid man from the Balkans with home spun references…..

Be very careful, they are letting you complete your examination then telling you that the equipment is faulty and has not recorded properly, thus failing to furnish you with evidence.

To sink this low is a prime indication that they see bundles of litigants in the near future.

Hence Cameron’s pilgrimage to the far kingdoms that pay proper benefits, not the crumbs afforded to the people of the UK. He states that it is unfair for other members of the little clique to enjoy our generous handouts……

Who is this toffee nosed, pompous cunt kidding.

Shagging pigs heads must have had a detrimental effect on his vacuuous brain cavity………….

Government welfare advisor did not know about 2010 suicide ‘triggered by work assessment’

Penny Marshall Social Affairs Editor
Stephen Carré took his own life in 2010.
Stephen Carré took his own life in 2010. Credit: Handout

A coroner’s warning that the impact of the last Labour Government’s Work Capability Assessment triggered a suicide is the second one ITV News has uncovered in collaboration with the Disability News Service.

The fact that the Government’s chief welfare advisor at the time says he didn’t know about it suggests that lessons that could have been learnt from the tragedy weren’t, and it once again draws attention to the way people with mental health issues have been treated on the WCA.

Stephen Carré took his own life in 2010 after he lost an appeal against the finding that he was fit to return to work. He was clinically depressed and had been diagnosed as bipolar.

At the inquest into his death the coroner ruled that the decision that he was “fit for work” had been the trigger for his suicide.

The coroner made his concerns about the system known to the Department of Work and Pensions in March 2010 by issuing what was then known as a Rule 43, a rare and significant intervention.

“I feel the decision by the department NOT to seek medical advice from the claimant’s own GP or psychiatrist if they are suffering a mental illness should be reviewed,” Coroner Tom Osbourne wrote.

His office told ITV News they have never received a “substantive” reply from the DWP to their 2010 letter.

And the man in charge of reviewing the WCA at the time for the Government says he was never even told about the case.

Professor Malcolm Harrington, who led the first three of the Government’s five Independent Reviews into the WCA from 2010 to 2012, says if he had known about the case, he would have raised the alarm about the vulnerability of mental health claimants in the system earlier and more vehemently in the first of his three reviews.

And Paul Farmer, CEO of the mental health charity MIND, said overlooking Stephen’s case looked like a “major system failure”.

He said had it been investigated properly the experience of hundreds of thousands of people who went through stressful fit for work tests could have been different.

A DWP spokesman said: “Suicide is a tragic and complex issue and there are often many reasons why someone takes their life, so to link it to one event is misleading.

“Since this inquest took place under the previous Government we have made significant improvements to the Work Capability Assessment, including improving the process for people with mental health conditions.

“The percentage of people with mental health conditions who get the highest level of support has more than tripled since 2010

……………..TYPICAL DWP RESPONSE, ABSOLUTE CLAPTRAP GENERATED BY A GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENT THAT KILLS AT WILL AND TRIES TO BURY THE EVIDENCE USING BENT STATISTICS.

well in that case let me know that you think they’re idiots, coz i worry others may believe their fucking bullshit and coz i fucking care deeply about downtrodden peoples…and they only care about their own selfish spiteful games if i post on any subject they post condemning what i say and i’ll end up being afraid to speak my mind in case they do….then i get blamed by others for posting to them and encouraging them but they want to shut me up….

You can not change people`s minds & why should you, they are not anyone special. These are the people when Tax Credits bite will want the answers. So more fool them. If you want answers you got to paying me £££££ Tory Tax Credit Victims !!!

Hello Stepping Razor Sound Plate System
Good to know there are a few civil people on here. I agree with your approach. If you treat people with different views how you’d want to be treated then people will listen. Pretty simple really 🙂

OBD – you may have noticed that I’ve stopped responding to some commentators here, particularly one nasty example. All of them are idiots, and it just makes sense to ignore them, rather than argue with them, or try to change their minds. Their loss. Most of their criticisms stem from you not outlining a perfect system of UBI, which not even the ‘experts’ could reasonably expect to do.

FOR THE IDIOTS – UBI is Unconditional Basic Income, which means that you get it just for breathing, there are no catches, you don’t have sign on, you don’t have to provide a worksearch, it’s money for free, gratis, for doing nothing except breathing. You will be able to work, but you won’t be obliged to work, but the fact is the vast majority of us do already ‘work’ it’s just that it’s not paid, and much of it isn’t defined as work, precisely because it isn’t paid. If you got paid work, you would still keep your UBI, but would pay tax on your wages.

People already getting paid high incomes for the work they do would still get the UBI, but because they get paid high wages they would pay more tax on their pay, which would cancel out the amount of UBI they received, and anyway, making UBI subject to a means test would mean bureaucracy which would reduce the efficiency of UBI and probably cost as much, if not more than would be saved.

Obviously the above is very oversimplified, (but I’m trying hard to consider the mindset of idiots here, after all, and wouldn’t want to strain the half brain cell they collectively posess) and would need refining. It will probably become a reality, and probably as a result of activity by the better educated members of the precariat, not because they are any better than anyone else, but because they are better educated and more able to articulate and organise than most others.

I’m ignoring them, Maria.
I get a picture of some bitter al weasels who had sand kicked in their weasly faces when they were kids and now they think they’ve got so much power behind a keyboard….it’s beyond sad

moggy
they never had to demand as children, when their needs weren’t met by others without demand, they masked their lack of demand self-esteem and become tantrum throwing, bullies…
bullies always claim to be victims and their victims rarely claim to be their victims, coz it’s always met with derision if they do…’turn that frown upside down’ laughter is the best medicine’ move on let go grow up you’re immature, you lack courage/morals, LMF, you just don’t think, sneak, pig, liar, thief, etc etc… if their victims demand, all hell breaks loose….and demand of victim until victim exhausted, when the bully can easily meet it’s own needs….
ie need more info on XYZ….
or throw utter trash in the way of victims explanations and attempts to meet bullies demands….which in turn explains the term feeding the troll…

It’s also classic projection. They project onto others the worse aspects of themselves eg they’ll call you a troll, call you a Tory, call you stupid and ignorant, call you the abuser because they can’t cope with these traits in themselves. Simple psychology really. The other thing is they’re attention-seeking and so it’s best to freeze them out 🙂

Make your mind up OBD “violence bottled up”, you have just accused me of letting violence out.
You are the one that has pent up anger supposedly due to your past, not me, I laugh at mine it is bloody hilarious, i’m thinking of writing a book.

Because any answers that we can possibly conceive about why bullies insist on bullying others, only serve to make excuses for their behaviour.

Take childhood trauma for instance. Well, lots of people had childhood traumas & did not resort to bully others. Chemical brain imbalances… please! There are plenty of bipolar or neuro-diverse decent people out there.

I’m not saying we should ignore bullies. What we can do is to state that their behaviour is hurtful & that we no longer wish to talk to them. Then if they continue – move on. Don’t respond back. Starve them of any attention. Or report them to Johnny Void.

plebrise
no bigger than that, is our whole bullying culture….and showing it up for what it is…i already understand where their crap is coming from, but as they use common words to convey their message and demanding they’re difficult to spot and/or counter….on a blog, which is plain to see even moderating them is difficult…

ps plebrise
no i don’t make excuses for their behaviour, know the reasons and treatment available for their disorder, but i get that i can now ignore known trolls, and no one will mind…perhaps i’ll post once to them just clear up my need to say something….

Your browser might not be all singing and dancing but your dancing around the truth, tinged with heartbreaking LGBT pc is worth of a Cecil B de milne epic.

You do nothing but moan because others can beat you in debates or arguments, you gang up on them, call them trolls and bullies.
We may have splinters in our eyes, but you have bloody big wedges in yours.

OBD – you may have noticed that I’ve stopped responding to some commentators here, particularly one nasty example. All of them are idiots, and it just makes sense to ignore them, rather than argue with them, or try to change their minds. Their loss. Most of their criticisms stem from you not outlining a perfect system of UBI, which not even the ‘experts’ could reasonably expect to do.

FOR THE IDIOTS – UBI is Unconditional Basic Income, which means that you get it just for breathing, there are no catches, you don’t have sign on, you don’t have to provide a worksearch, it’s money for free, gratis, for doing nothing except breathing. You will be able to work, but you won’t be obliged to work, but the fact is the vast majority of us do already ‘work’ it’s just that it’s not paid, and much of it isn’t defined as work, precisely because it isn’t paid. If you got paid work, you would still keep your UBI, but would pay tax on your wages….”

Yay for another voice of reason! I’ve written about this many times – one of my old blog posts was something along those lines:

“We are sick. Sick of the ‘something for nothing rhetoric’ when we are in fact people who receive nothing for something. We give something and expect nothing or very little in return. We celebrate the creative diversity and art forms of the long term sick and disabled, and those with long term health problems be they mental, physical or both, visible or invisible, fluctuating or chronic. We create not only for the health and benefit of ourselves but for the wider community. Our expression is through our writing, our art, music, satire, film, photography, video, radio, poetry, crafts, song, novels, blogs, diverse thought….

If we make any money at all, it is not enough to live on. Successive governments don’t value the arts unless they are economically productive. They only value us as economic units, hence all the talk of ‘something for nothing’. We are all nothing to them unless we are economically self-reliant. When they refer to hard-working people, when did you last hear this in relation to artists? In an aggressive Capitalist society, we are dispensable if we can’t be self-reliant, even though our health problems prevent us from being self-reliant. The arts is precarious, our health is precarious….this is also applies to carers, volunteers, people studying, kids, parents, people do jack all. Anybody who opposes it must be for the wage slave system, pure and simple.

So someone who wants to eradicate currency is in favour of a wage slave system?
Do me a favour and bog off you are the one that is in favour of the capitalist society you are condemning, by telling those able to work that they can earn money on top, the rich can still have UBI etc. etc.
Those who study will still have to borrow for tuition fees, those whose basic income does not even end up covering the basics will have to borrow and all of this system is so that the rich in the uk can invest and buy up properties in Europe and third world countries with their basic incomes, while the poor have been paid a silence benefit after being tortured by IDS and his bullying benefits system into signing away their welfare heritage.
You still don’t say where all of this money to pay every man woman and child will come from when they can’t even afford to pay those entitled to benefits without imposing austerity.
YOU ARE FOOLING NOBODY!

Who is trying to stop you from posting – that is your dirty tricks not anyone elses, we are trying to get you from flogging a dead horse like UBI to those that know it was constructed by the rich mainly for the rich and to put an end to legitimate welfare, which they have eroded in an effort to get their own way.
You are the moron that has fallen for their clap trap hook line and stinker.

SRSPS Your friend OBD is the one that has been trying to put words into other peoples mouths regarding UBI which we are criticizing. Then he goes off on a tangent crying he is not going to post on anything.
Someone get the violins out!

‘You are the moron that has fallen for their clap trap hook line and stinker’ ok i’m an idiot, a moron, i won’t post about UBI, dr bob johnson, welfare rights, the dwp jsa esa etc anymore i won’t have any ideas to contribute coz i’m a weak, easily led, moron, i’ll leave it up to the likes of you to theme this blog…. bye….

You are the best laugh, “although we don’t always agree we are civll and listen to one another even if we don’t agree with their point of view”.
Like telling them they are wrong if they don’t have your viewpoint.

Anyone can post here flyhawks, irrespective of whether or not they agree or disagree with you or anyone else. The only person who has any clout over who posts or does not, is the blog owner.

You might want to rein in your aggressive and threatening posts aimed at individuals, unless you wish to get the blog owner into trouble. Just because many people think that UBI is a great idea, does not give you the right to behave like a Class A wanker.

No one is impressed by you.

You posted “Razor do us a favour and slit your throat” That’s a distinctive and offensive manner in presenting debate. It’s threatening and unacceptable in any discourse. You know that.

It’s a sad fact of life that no one is going to agree with you all the time. It’s time to accept that, and quit trying to rip everyone a new arsehole via text tantrums.

Stepping
OBD
Maria
Moggy
Sib
….and plenty of others have been polite & informative to you in their responses.

Thank you Lion, OBD I like our chats and even though we don’t always agree we are civil and mindful and respectful of other peoples view point. If you want to say to someone that is not right and explain why, do it, but there comes a time, when you know they are deliberately being nasty and spinning things out for ever and resorting to name-calling , just stop responding to that because it is a waste of your life.

“It’s a sad fact of life that no one is going to agree with you all the time. It’s time to accept that, and quit trying to rip everyone a new arsehole via text tantrums.

Stepping
OBD
Maria
Moggy
Sib
….and plenty of others have been polite & informative to you in their responses.

They deserve a medal, and we all deserve UBI.

:)”

Aw thanks, Cecil…am feeling the lurve 😉 Solidarity to you. You know what gets me is that the troll is playing right into the hands of IDS and all his cronies. They only get into power through their divide and rule tactics and while I welcome healthy debate, trolls trying to destable solidarity rather than being united against the common enemy is why our enemies succeed

You can fuckoff also Sib, because that is who you are. The UBI lot are the ones that insult first, push their agenda at every opportunity and do not want any opposition so get your facts right, but ofcourse you can’t if you support UBI.

I don’t care whether anyone agrees with me or not I have never, ever asked anyone to support me like you lot do and jump to each others defence, but I guess you sheep think there is safety in numbers.

Razor is the one who tried to insult me before I made the remark to him in jest – get a life you moron.

I see what you are getting at Angel, but to me, it all merges into the same thing. The blog owner has allowed anyone to post & debate here. If all that is left in the box of tools for debate is the use of violent language, to get someone to stop posting…

…I think the bottom of the barrel has been reached

But hey, ever onward!

UBI wouldn’t half help people with no roof, no food, no bed, no door 🙂

And since it appears that a UBI would replace the Welfare State as we know it, although the pro-UBIers on here seem to be saying that Social Insecurity is already a distant memory hence the pressing need for a UBI, what would happen if a Government decided to whittle away the value of UBI like they are doing with certain benefits at the moment or just scrapped it all together. If your were solely dependent on UBI it would be just like having the rug pulled from under your feet. Market mechanisms would readjust and the UBI-dependants would be left behind and frozen out. Under a post-Welfare State/UBI system it would be very easy to be left with NO INCOME. There is NOTHING to fight for. When the plug is pulled those at the bottom are going to drown.

“And since it appears that a UBI would replace the Welfare State as we know it, although the pro-UBIers on here seem to be saying that Social Insecurity is already a distant memory hence the pressing need for a UBI, what would happen if a Government decided to whittle away the value of UBI like they are doing with certain benefits at the moment or just scrapped it all together. If your were solely dependent on UBI it would be just like having the rug pulled from under your feet. Market mechanisms would readjust and the UBI-dependants would be left behind and frozen out. Under a post-Welfare State/UBI system it would be very easy to be left with NO INCOME. There is NOTHING to fight for. When the plug is pulled those at the bottom are going to drown.”

The rug has already been pulled from the feet of many or had you not noticed, Voice? And those that are left are floundering about on a slippery threadbare mat which they have to beg to stay on. UBI is at least unconditional…food, housing, warmth, leisure…these things should be unconditional. As was said in the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists if they could find a way of marketing oxygen ‘the markets’ would. They just don’t know how to. Yes I use the term Social Insecurity because it is a distant memory and it always was conditional. Unconditional is the key word here with UBI eg similar to the State Pension. OK, you can argue that UBI is conditional on the vagaries of the powers that be but the same is true of Social (In)security and state pensions. You know many of us in our 50s now can’t wait to get to our mid 60s (even though the goalposts have been shifted) not for the princely sum that the state pension is but because it is largely unconditional. None barbaric sanctions or hoops to jump through or proof of disability etc. Even pensions are now under threat…this is what’s left of our Social Security system. I don’t even call it SS because it is no more. Nobody has ‘security’ on it any more. They even changed the name to the DWP because they decided the name no longer applied.

A far better idea and to prevent citizens from going under would be to have a system of BENEFITS for people in NEED. Like benefits if you are unemployed, sick, disabled, can’t afford your rent… 😉 And these benefits were specifically targeted at those in NEED. Kind of like a ‘safety net’ so that you knew if you were ever to fall on hard times (touch wood!) you wouldn’t ‘fall through the cracks’.

Being solely dependant on an ‘income’ that *everyone* is entitled to does seems to be on rather shaky ground. ‘Solely dependent’ are the operative words here. UBI would appear to be beneficial if it wasn’t your sole income (and dependent on where any withdrawal ‘taper’ kicked in).

In summary: UBI is good if you are working or have other income and particularly if you can earn a significant amount before you begin to ‘lose’ your UBI to tax. UBI is bad as a replacement for a proper Welfare State which delivers a range of benefits. UBI is bad if it is your only income.

And obviously a UBI paid at a single rate would be more beneficial to couples rather than singles and more beneficial to children still living at home.

Examples for illustrative purposes only:

‘Sarah is single and lives in a council flat. She is on JSA and is responsible for her own bills. Sarah would be worst off under UBI.

Zac and Jemima live at home with their lecturer parents. Zac is a stockbroker in the city and Jemina is a teacher/aspiring actress model. Zac and Jemina’s parents allow them to live rent and bill free. There parents already hold a vast property portfolio. UBI would allow Zac to keep up the payments on a brand new Lambourghina. Zac and Jemina would be better off under UBI.

A far better idea and to prevent citizens from going under would be to have a system of BENEFITS for people in NEED. Like benefits if you are unemployed, sick, disabled, can’t afford your rent… 😉 And these benefits were specifically targeted at those in NEED. Kind of like a ‘safety net’ so that you knew if you were ever to fall on hard times (touch wood!) you wouldn’t ‘fall through the cracks’.

Being solely dependant on an ‘income’ that *everyone* is entitled to does seems to be on rather shaky ground. ‘Solely dependent’ are the operative words here. UBI would appear to be beneficial if it wasn’t your sole income (and dependent on where any withdrawal ‘taper’ kicked in).

In summary: UBI is good if you are working or have other income and particularly if you can earn a significant amount before you begin to ‘lose’ your UBI to tax. UBI is bad as a replacement for a proper Welfare State which delivers a range of benefits. UBI is bad if it is your only income.

And obviously a UBI paid at a single rate would be more beneficial to couples rather than singles and more beneficial to children still living at home.

Examples for illustrative purposes only:

‘Sarah’ is single and lives in a council flat. She is on JSA and is responsible for her own bills. Sarah would be worst off under UBI.

Zac and Jemima live at home with their lecturer parents. Zac is a stockbroker in the city and Jemina is a teacher/aspiring actress model. Zac and Jemina’s parents allow them to live rent and bill free. There parents already hold a vast property portfolio. UBI would allow Zac to keep up the payments on a brand new Lambourghina. Zac and Jemina would be better off under UBI.

‘Donkey’ owns and lives on a vast roaming estate in the Scottish Highland over-looking the banks of Loch Glenfiddich. ‘Donkey’ has worked all their live and has built up a significant savings and a substantial pension pot. ‘Donkey’ is not dependent on benefits. UBI would provide a significant income ‘top-up’. ‘Donkey’ would be better off under UBI.

‘Guy’ lives in a council flat in a run-down English sea-side town. Guy has spent little if any time in work instead choosing to bring up children.
Therefore guy has absolutely no capital, savings, property or otherwise. ‘Guy’ is dependent solely on benefits. ‘Guy’ would be worse off under UBI.

‘Sib’ lives in the Welsh Valleys. Sib is independently very wealthy and is a member of the local Conservative Association. ‘Sib’ list amongst their hobbies, ‘big-game hunting ‘ and ‘going on safari. ‘Sib’ would be better off under UBI.

Well another voice, I think you underestimate guy regarding work or riches, they have worked tirelessly for the poor while bringing up children one of which was ill, worked on and off as they grew up as well as attending university to study for a degree.
Guy is rich in many other talents other than making money for millionaires.

Yes I rarely come on here to comment…I just subscribe to JV’s blog. Trouble is I occasionally scroll down to the comments and see the same old bile from the same old people under different names STILL attacking OBD just because he supports UBI, which I do too. They just shout him down with abuse. The irony is UBI has more in common with Social Security as was than the conditionality that’s attached to benefits these days. SS was more conditional than UBI. I want UBI. I don’t want conditions attached. Just give me enough to keep warm, housed, eat, and the usual treats. I’m having to fill out a horrendous PIP form. By opposing UBI these people are affecting MY life. If enough people were on board UBI would be nearer to reality. But this is England. England is a right wing, small minded, insular country which is why UBI has gained more traction in Europe…

Thanks Enigma. I am a member of Benefits&Work site and they have really good guides. But the hoops you have to jump through…it’s taken me weeks. 40 pages they want you to complete and then they use all the nasty tricks in the book to cut people off 😦

Thanks Enigma. I’ve about done it now. I am admin in a benefits group on FB so I know quite a bit but when it comes to your own it’s a different kettle of fish…but it’s kind of relevant to the argument…

I am admin in a benefits group on FB – bullshit you are probably one of the job lot.
Kitty jones wordpress was always promoted on Vox political Tony Blair’s champion of the labour party, who is also a hypocrite, his brother not so bad.

Of course I am fucking admin on FB in one of those groups and I’ve probably blocked you. I can see the Tory groups that you’re in. I know who Kitty Jones is. I’m able to join up up the dots you see. You carry on abusing people who don’t agree you with you if it makes you feel better and I will carry on campaigning for my the oppressed…

Ok guy/hawk whatever you are, you carry on, biting the shit out of yourself to your heart’s content. Whatever you type to me will roll off my back without any effect on my equilibrium. All you are doing is raging against yourself with bigoted opinions and hate mongering.

None of the people who post on here are responsible for the way your life has turned out. Please consider what Moggy said upthread, that you have fallen into the trap laid since 2010 by the Tories & the media.

Divide and rule was made for you guy/hawk. IDS would be delighted to see how you not only rip yourself apart, but attempt to do it to others also.

If you turn up anywhere and your opening gambit is to insult anyone taking part in the discussion, then it’s unlikely that you are going to be welcome or attract anything other than rejection. Not because of your political beliefs, but because you are so constantly angry and insulting.

You aren’t fooling anyone guy/hawks. Least of all yourself.

UBI is a radical & wonderful idea, I hope I live long enough to see it implemented. 🙂

“f you are part of a benefits and works site, you are not having much impact if you are still being made to fill in 40 pages to get your money”

Just shot yourself in the foot again. That is the CONDITIONAL benefits system we have now. If we all had a UBI it wouldn’t be a life and death all or nothing situation for disabled people to get what it is entitled to them.

If UBI has more in common with the SS that was, why then not just revert back to what was instead of wanting an entirely new system that does not add up and gives handouts to the rich.
UBI would never be nearer to reality because it is unrealistic.

And what these naysayers don’t seem to get, OBD, Enigma and SRSPS is that Social Security was conditional for the poor but some of the benefits were universal and unconditional which meant the rich got them too eg bus passes, family allowance etc. UBI has the beauty of being universal (cheaper to administer and ensuring maximum uptake) AND unconditional. Who would argue against it? Means tested benefits mean that loads of people don’t bother to claim. There are millions that go unclaimed in benefits every year. I would rather that a few toffs get bus passes then a few of the poor miss out because they weren’t universal and unconditional.

If anyone believes that UBI would be unconditional they are living in cloud cuckoo land.
If the rich are few in number as you lot would have us believe then why not just exclude them, because it will only go towards paying their tax bill you intend to charge them.
I would like to believe that those who did not collect means tested benefits were the rich with a conscience refusing to claim, but it was more than likely those that tried to claim but were refused benefits, thus the unclaimed benefit big lie.
Bus passes are implemented and funded via local government not central government like jsa, etc.
Why don’t you go back to your tory heartland Mog you troll, instead of trying to sell us a pig in a poke as a welfare system, which would be grossly unfair, unequal and would not take into account the differentials in income people are receiving now via the benefits system.
It would not be cheaper to implement either.

If we cannot afford to pay benefits now without austerity how we will be able to fund every man, woman and child universally.
If these UBI supporters had a brain they would be dangerous, arguing against the old system because it gave to the rich also, then promoting a new system which gives even more to the rich.
You couldn’t make it up how their mind’s work.

“If we cannot afford to pay benefits now without austerity how we will be able to fund every man, woman and child universally…”

The troll is obviously a merchant banker in both senses of the word! He’s obviously so stupid he doesn’t realize how much the bankers are worth or he is one himself (same thing really). And that’s only one example of obscene money in the hands of a few. There are whole countries that are poorer than some corporates…but obviously that was too much for his dying brain cell…going going…oh look it died!

First thing, you are saying that BEGGARS and HOMELESS PEOPLE are the same thing. They’re not. These campaigns encourage people not to give to BEGGARS specifically, not homeless people. It is you who is tarnishing homeless people with the same brush.
Second, you seem to think it’s ok for people to live as street homeless??! You are suggesting you should be complicit in people’s struggles with addiction, because there is nothing else for them?? Professional homelessness charities (not this crack n cider thing, idiots) have teams made up of ex-street homeless people who support people away from the streets. And one of the steps some people take is to enter rehab. But it’s DIFFICULT to leave a lifestyle you’ve become entrenched in behind. If someone hands you a tenner, you may well put off rehab for one more day, and sadly that day could be your last.

I totally agree with your sentiments. When Amy Winehouse died of drug and drink related illnesses the morons were putting bottles of vodka down with the donated flowers outside of her house. Rehab could have saved her.

On the other hand there are some people who want to live their lives in excess without any interference from others, providing they are not hurting anyone else I think that is their business and should be allowed to live their life as they choose.

I agree – that people, ultimately, should be able to do whatever they want. But if people with self-destructive behaviour can be given access to an alternative, and supported on to a happy fulfilling life, then surely that’s a good thing. Living street homeless is no life, you have your mates, and whatever you do to get you by, but ultimately, it’s dangerous and stressful and most people would prefer to live a more stable life, given the chance. Outreach workers sometimes spend years just waiting for someone to one day say ‘I’ve had enough, what am I doing’ and when they do, they will be supported.

Welfare Reforms means thousands of people will become homeless. Sanctions are a ticket to homelessness. Welfare Reform is about managing your life better, so why not start at the bottom by being homeless. Good training in life to make you work harder when you get a job. If you have not got housing you can`t get a job or benefits. Making a mockery with real people`s lives as entertainment for targets & board room meetings with the bosses who also bully the staff like they run the mafia. All in order thinking scrapping legal aid will fix the poverty problem.

Sorry, just wanted to say – Johnny Void, this bit is just plain wrong – “It is the presumption that homeless people cannot be trusted to be actors in their own lives that reveals the flaws embedded within charity. To make a decision about what someone needs, whilst ignoring what they tell you they need, makes giving all about the giver not the receiver. Charity becomes a way for people to feel better about themselves…” You are pointing out the flaws embedded in ‘everyday charity’ by members of the public (giving someone a coat etc) which I agree – many people do this to make themselves feel better. There are situations where a homeless person has said no to what is actually their 42nd hot chocolate of the day, and the person offering it has gone off on a ‘you ungrateful shit, take what you can get’ rant. And some of the larger homelessness charities, who don’t directly work with street homeless people, are guilty of this too (telling homeless people what they want, not listening to them). But direct service delivery organisations take user involvement very seriously – at the end of the day, you can’t MAKE anyone turn their lives around, homeless people absolutely have to be actors in their own lives. They also absolutely need to be given advice and support when they are making self-destructive choices. And, believe it or not, homeless people do actually ask for this support!! These ideas haven’t just been plucked out of the air from up on high. They come from real experience and listening to homeless people. Don’t pick your fight with the service-delivery charities, you’re just shooting the whole thing in the foot 😦

shall i ignore the above common place ignorance moggy and sib, or post to impart my knowledge…it seems like an uphill struggle…perhaps i should just say to the poster ‘you’re talking bollocks’ and leave it @ that, and not explain why…

by ignorant and bigoted… does that mean someone with knowledge and experience of the sector, facts to back up informed opinions, and an openness to other people’s points of view? And not being open-minded… does that mean anyone who doesn’t precisely subscribe to your point of view?! Seems the opposite of open-minded to me! These comments are ridiculous, several of you are immediately lampooning any attempt at a discussion which draws from both sides of the coin!
Bye bye this blog is a waste of time 😦 (sorry to those of you who are actually able to have a conversation, there’s just far too many close-minded ignorant bigots on here who are completely uninterested in actually broadening their understanding of something they pretend to care so much about)

You decide OBD, I personally wouldn’t bother trying to convince those whose minds are obviously made up. Replying that the poster is talking bollocks could be the best response because at the very least it leaves things open to them coming back and asking for your advice when they do indeed discover for themselves what you already know.

It’s a bit like providing advice; which is only really welcomed when it is sought, rather than provided unasked for, which can lead to resentment.

sib
my concern is to counter their ignorance and learn from them if possible, as their mo/agendas are tory/right wing…which IS what we’re generally up against but yes this can become counter productive possibly only in the short term though, as they draw on into their BS…

ps sib re-edit
my concern is to counter their ignorance and learn from them if possible, as their mo/agendas are tory/right wing…which IS what we’re generally up against but yes this can become counter productive,as they draw on into their BS…imv only in the short term though, we live and learn….

Homeless people need homes. Period. That’s regardless whether they are addicts, anti-social or just poor. It really doesn’t matter.

Sure, it can be argued that violent, antisocial people need to live in more supervised communities which better cater to their needs & safety of others. Which still means that they need homes, albeit homes with more security & mental health services.

When we sleep rough or worse, get raped, abused or beaten as a result of sleeping rough, then we are most likely to end up drinking, taking drugs or both. We do that out of survival, to keep ourselves warm & numb our pain. This is how evictions cause addictions. Not to mention what homelessness does to our mental health.

Hence it’s pointless in arguing about “turning addicts’ lives around” before rehousing them, S14. Because no treatment will ever be effective if a person lives on the street or is in danger of eviction.

100% agree, accommodation must be found before people can address problems with addiction. Sorry if that wasn’t clear. People should be homed – the way they get homed is through accessing front-line homelessness services.

No, the way they get homed is through us maintaining & building more council flats & specialised accommodation for people with extra needs i.e. violent, anti-social people or severe drug users.

Front-line homeless services are meant to assist vulnerable people into housing but if there are no houses left then there is nothing they can do.

Cue in pointless & patronising taxpayer funded schemes which shift the blame for homelessness back on the homeless. Such as an expectation of drug addicts to get clean, look for jobs & cash declined by well off do-gooders handing them jackets… And they are expected to do all this whilst still sleeping rough!

Say it loud – it doesn’t matter if homeless people are drug addicts, anti-social or just poor. What they need are homes, not self improvement lectures!

Who do you think you are, according to you and your cronies anyone who doesn’t agree with your nutcase community thinking is anti social or violent and needs specialist treatment and housing – the Nazi will never be dead while you are alive you lunatic.

Homeless people have choice to fly to the Moon and back on pushy bike made from empty cider bottles. Homeless people make choice to drink space rockets and become homeless. Disabled people have no choice to make Interstellar voyage on Lima cake.

OT: Behavioural Modification of subjects including using drugs to do so and the need for it

[H-T Refuted]

Saw on Refuted Twitter feed there’s a Poor are to blame for thinking being poor book titled: “The Welfare Trait – How State Benefits Affect Personality” by a Dr Adam Perkins. Normally I’d take no notice but reading his research interests shows the following: “My research strategies include measuring the effects of anti-anxiety drugs” and “associations between personality questionnaire scores and patterning of human defensive behaviour.”

So to summarize, according to him if you’re poor you’ll will pass onto your children the poor mindset/’disease’ of beingpoor, and by advocating drugs you know what he wants to do to correct it…

The 2nd to last Paragraphs illustrate the illogic and outright lie of his whole argument:

“These problems have been addressed by studies in the US and UK that explored the causal links through follow-up interviews with people who claimed welfare. They found that claimants used less contraception when there were increases in the amount of benefits available and the number of children born to welfare claimants rose by 1% for every 3% rise in benefit generosity.”

So due to being unemployed I and other male unemployed men take “less contraception”.

Yes, interesting Assumption: Men take contraception. Further another Assumption is: Men take less contraception

So he uses pregnancies to justify his conclusion. I am sure I along with every other unemployed man can see the connection.

Really?

How long before the Tory Press is trumpeting this rubbish? I can see the headlines now Newsflash: “Tidal wave of pregnant men bankrupting the benefits system!”

Guess we will all just have to wait until JV writes an article on UBI – “UBI – the best thing since sliced bread” or “UBI – a crock of fucking shite”, then we can all happily go along with it 😀 Until then we will never really know the truth about UBI

Guess we will all just have to wait until JV writes an article on UBI – “UBI – the best thing since sliced bread” or “UBI – a crock of fucking shite”, then we can all happily go along with it 😀 Until then we will never really know the truth about UBI 🙂

Sadly England is a Land of Racist Boneheads and is Insular and Ignorantsular

Too much Neo Liberalism too little Human Decency

Moggy Paw Lore | November 10, 2015 at 8:22 pm | Reply

Hi Enigma

Yes I rarely come on here to comment…I just subscribe to JV’s blog. Trouble is I occasionally scroll down to the comments and see the same old bile from the same old people under different names STILL attacking OBD just because he supports UBI, which I do too. They just shout him down with abuse. The irony is UBI has more in common with Social Security as was than the conditionality that’s attached to benefits these days. SS was more conditional than UBI. I want UBI. I don’t want conditions attached. Just give me enough to keep warm, housed, eat, and the usual treats. I’m having to fill out a horrendous PIP form. By opposing UBI these people are affecting MY life. If enough people were on board UBI would be nearer to reality. But this is England. England is a right wing, small minded, insular country which is why UBI has gained more traction in Europe…

OBD I think its nice to have both, but we need the welfare state regardless of charities, that is very important that we don’t fall back to just relying on charities because its is not consistent and just not enough.

Equally Christmas whilst the Materialistic Middle Class will be Bragging
about what Presents they are Buying and Receiving I have More
Sympathy with the Homeless and Destitute of this Neo Liberal Slavery
State

The era of mass employment is already over and has been for some time.
What exactly is all this ‘work’ that people are supposed to be doing

Moving junk around in a charity shop ?
Setting up as a provider/parasite of welfare to nowork services and living of hard-working tax-payer funded grants ?
Working in a recycling plant ?
Shelf-stacking for B&M for social security payments ?
Steel making ?

If someone could tell us what/where all this work is we then could all go and just do it for a wage, but they wont will they, strange that.

‘Sarah is single and lives in a council flat. She is on JSA and is responsible for her own bills. Sarah would be worst off under UBI.’

You sure about that, Voice?

It depends on how much a UBI would be set at and if it had housing elements. Nobody has said that you couldn’t top up on UBI. The key word is basic. That means the very minimum as I understand it.

How old is Sarah? If she is under 25 she will get some crappy amount of £50 on JSA (plus housing benefit). But and this is a big but…under JSA she is under constant threat of sanctions from JC staff who have targets and who are looking for pathetic reasons to sanction people. She is living in fear because the maths don’t add up…there are only half a million job vacancies at any one time and two and half million people plus unemployed (excluding the disabled and those who are already on a sanction to massage the unemployment figs).

Now Universal Credit or Universal Chaos as I prefer to call it, was a lost opportunity. If it was unconditional it might have had been a good idea, marrying the idea of the old SS system with some elements of UBI. It started out as a basic income for working age adults with housing and disabled elements, so far so good. But then it was put into the hands of IDS who bastardised it so much that someone on it stands to lose all. Even their housing element can be sanctioned. So it is not universal and should ditch that part of its name and it is not unconditional.

This country is living on debt, anyone with any wealth has it neatly tucked away in some offshore account, big retailers have their businesses in their wives names then leave them lounging on the family yacht outside of some principality to avoid paying taxes in uk.
Rock stars like Rod Stewart go and live in America to avoid paying high taxes, their is less and less people in work to pay taxes even to keep the public services going and mog thinks she is going to find enough money to pay UBI to all – well good luck with that one.

Could someone tell the Troll I’m not going to pay UBI personally – it is for more intelligent men and women than he will ever be to work it out. Not that it requires much intelligence. Was he so stuck on his trolling back in 2008 that he missed the crash? Does he not understand that The Establishment has deliberately put us ‘in debt’? That the Tories have increased the debt even more than NL? That there’s an alternative to anti-austerity? Nah, too much for his addled brain cell!

If you know there is an alternative to anti-austerity then let’s hear it so long as it is not UBI which you haven’t got clue how to fund.

The crash now wasn’t that something to do with sub prima donna’s borrowing from the banks and two prima donna’s in the name of Blair and Brown bailing them out, I’m sure the sub normal prima donna with no brain cells will have some kind of answer.

Flyhawks its never you that’s wrong is it, your always right, it must be everybody else that’s wrong, your ruining a perfectly good blog, were people are trying to post in peace, you bully OBD and that is sickening behaviour, you just want the world your way, so you win, doesn’t matter about anyone else, you would trample over anyone to get what you want. Stop ask OBD the same question over and over and demanding him to answer it as if he never did. People on here have tried to help you, but as usual you always know best. You just a selfish child, who probably either used to be better off and fell on hard times or that you have always been in poverty and rather than count your blessing and accept a system that gives you all you need to live your life but without the frills, you became sour and embittered by everyone who didn’t agree with you. Grow up.

Maria – fly/guy/hawk/nell/kitty – it’s a troll, that’s why it doesn’t admit it’s wrong. It is going to feel such an idiot one day when it realizes the difference between Universal Chaos which and Unconditional Basic Income which was mooted years ago by the Green Party (called the Basic Income Scheme). Picture it 20 years hence when some in Europe are getting their unconditional income and they can work or not work on top and the troll is still lying in his cradle pooping out his crap I WANT SOCIAL SECURITY LIKE IT WAS WITH CONDITIONS AND ALL THE REST OF IT – spits dummy out, shits in the face of the hand that gives.
Sorry, I am going to have to unsubscribe from this thread soon because the number of comments means it’s taken too long to load but solidarity with you UBI peeps all the way. As for the IDS’s bot it can get to the FB page and further ask question but it won’t because that would mean being civil!

I can’t reload every time so will just put it all in this post. Kitty Cat was banned because of its anti-semitism and since the resident troll said he last last remembered a discussion about the subject I can only assume it is the same person. He accuses me of being people I’ve only just met and you of all being part of the one, but this is because this is what she/he/it does!

Razor – the troll said to you “you are the spiteful ones who slander anyone with a different viewpoint, you are all terrified you might learn something that would do you some good” – this is classic Freudian projection. If you – we offered him a hand of friendship he’d run a mile. He only exists to be a troll is incapable of being the bigger person!

Razor – “How sad you must feel all by yourself because you are spending all your time here getting your jollys off the suffering you feel inside of no one takes you seriously. Sad sad little person who can only communicate with threats & insults”

So true – beyond sad…

Right, solidarity to all those who can join in intelligent debate without resorting to bile (mine is satire of course and that is perfectly acceptable) and see you on another thread! You’ve all made your point eloquently (when you weren’t being reduced to the level of the lowest common denominator…if you’ve got to keep repeating something and it doesn’t go in, says more about the receiver)

If IDS’s bottom sprays any more I won’t see it or be covered in its pong because I’m unsubscribing from this thread!

fly
actually no! you managed to get European Unconditional Basic Income, unity and trolls discussed…but you cite as your memorable achievement as managing to goad, snipe and wind people up…how sad and pathetic is that…

oh dear making excuses, for your rudeness towards me and others now…!? ie blaming the victims…’it’s all your fault because of this that and the other….’ ‘you should have known what i was doing or meant’ etc etc…

you know nothing about anyone on here you are such a bad judge of character, if you think you are upsetting me with your insults, you are not because I know better. Only somebody sick makes sport out and enjoys insulting people, you ought to be ashamed of yourself. I’m so glad I am not like you. Others are right, you are empty, there is nothing inside of you but bile.

Maria there is nothing inside of you full stop, other than tripe, you are as dumb and as dumbfounded as the rest of your group who haven’t got a clue about character assessment either and have to gravitate to one another to have people believe they have something worth saying.

moggy
the truth is that donkey has been struggling with illness and undiagnosed diabetes complications et al for yrs, subsequently had to sell what little i had off to survive and been homeless….and this info has been posted before….

Whilst attending a funeral a few days back (NOT MY OWN), Judge DAVID WILLIAMS is working on that, i was astounded to hear that the funeral industry was making record profits from DWP recommendations………..

Strange how many claimants that were assessed as, “FIT FOR WORK”, were dying in droves.
The guy in the black frock coat, the funeral director, advised me that the trending had reached fever pitch and the bodies were becoming an embarrassment.

“Some of the lads take them home and keep them in the garage”, i was told.
Another had them hidden between rows of vegetables draped in plastic sheeting.

The funeral parlours are in meltdown, the joint operation between the Freedom of Information Czar and the bedpan washers dressed as nurses for Disability Denial, have spiked our profits by over 300%…………

If the DWP have admitted to killing just 2380, what must the true figure be?

ATOS and MAximus are just the slimeballs that execute the murders on behalf of the DWP. (EXECUTE, WHAT AN APT WORD TO USE IN CONJUNCTION WITH OUR SOCIAL SECURITY ENABLERS), however they distance themselves from the deaths, the smell follows them everywhere.

Even the EU Human Rights inspectors are intrigued why so many unhealthy people were awarded zero points, let alone all the healthy ones dropping like flies soon after appraisal……………….

No wonder gas stocks over the winter period are in doubt, the fallout from the DWP will be putting pressure on the crematoriums to run double shifts or place two together for cost effectiveness.

I know it’s not nice to quote crematoriums because it brings back memories of all the truly evil incidents that the Nazis did to over six million during the past, yet those times are now in the distant past, surely?

Even Eichmann, did not attract as many signatures of disapproval as Dunko the Clown, yet Eichmann murdered with more compassion, the victims were not sent brown envelopes to exacerbate their suffering, the zyklon B gas more humane……………………

Incidentally, a judge in the good old US of A, has just passed a death sentence on a white supremecist for killing three people. Dunko the Clowns arm could not accomodate all the syringes of lethal injection for his crimes……………..

You are nowt but a big bully. guy! You come on here with your big words and fancy talk making out that folks who don’t have fancy university degrees are stupid and all. You only want to upset us good folks. obd is when they say you need help. Hope JV bans you for once and all.

I think you are the one’s that need help constantly shouting for jv to ban me, you can’t stand the competition.
Not that I am competing other than to be my usual self, which for some reason has others trying to compete with me.

You are a really sad person flyfawkes. You are not going to drag us down to your level with your shouting and bawling. Just cos you know how to insult people doesn’t mean you are smart. It just means you are a stupid person with nothing but bile inside that stupid head of yours. What good things do you ever do for people, flyfawkes? I do good things for other people all the time and I am sure OBD and all the other good posters on here to do. You should seek help for your anger. You have a really nasty temper.

pariah are you maria’s parrot, you seem to be repeating everything she says and you make out I am the only one who posts under different names. I have a reason for posting under a different name, you don’t except to sneakily try to make out you have more supporters than you really do have.
You all need help, you lot are the nutcases.

Dunko the Clown is spending his christmas at home, the big top, with all the other clowns who provide him with gags.

For instance, Lord David Freud, the failed banker, an apparent wanker, who fucked up everything he touched.

The only person with zero medical knowledge and an inbred hatred of disabled that was asked to formulate opinion on welfare reforms on the weakest in society. Rather like Hitler giving an opinion on fitting showers!

…………YOU KEEP KILLING THEM AND WE WILL KEEP BURYING THEM UNTIL YOUR DIRTY, EVIL, FETID REGIME, STARTS TO ATTRACT MORE UNWANTED PUBLICITY.

Geoff – that is very good and clear and to the point.
The noose is tightening on all of them – slowly but surely it will I am sure catch up with them – one day their charmed rich lives and their luck will finally run out – just like an old style sand egg-timer.

MAXIMUS were asked to tender for the holocaust but ATOS delivered the winning tender………………
But these companies are totally irrelevant because the DWP are ultimately responsible for the huge swathes of deaths, the judges like ROWLAND AND WILLIAMS, culpable……..

It`s the DWP`s responsibility but don`t want to know. The only way IDS wants to know is if ATOS & MAXIMUS are shown for what they are – Disability Deniers Since Atos & maximus have closed ranks with puppet master Chris Grayling it is a embedded political disaster. As Chris has a vested interest & so do the DWP.

= No country borders in business working with Atso French Maximus USA. So they can`t be touched. The DWP with vested interest also jump on the international bandwagon & the DWP say they have no responsibility over the DWP in the uk. In fact the UK gov are not taking ANY responsibility whatsoever with hiding behind French ATOS & USA Maximus.

A decision that a claimant does not have Limited Capability for work, or Limited Capability for Work Related Activity, is colloquially referred to as a decision that the claimant is “FIT FOR WORK”. However, what this actually means is that the claimant does not meet the functional descriptors set out in the ESA Regulations for LCA or LCWRA.
IT DOES NOT REPRESENT A FINDING ON WHETHER OR NOT THE CLAIMANT IS EMPLOYABLE OR WHETHER THE CLAIMANT WILL BE ABLE TO FIND WORK.
..

…….PURE UNADULTERATED CLAPTRAP FROM THE DWP TO TRY AND ESCAPE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THOSE THEY HAVE KILLED.

It shouldn’t be too long before DUNKO THE CLOWN is made to fall on his own sword.
The Dwp are embarrassed, the tories embarrassed and the huge petition a thumbs down to the greatest fool in modern politics.

Sadly, he will be made to take the flak, the fall guy for those feeding him with hate propaganda against the weakest, the likes of Lord Fraud.

The government will announce his leaving at about the same time that the UN Inspectors publish their findings. He will leave his position with a golden handshake and be made to sign an agreement that will bind him from making any attacks, verbal or otherwise, against his former employee, the Dwp.

Never has a scapegoat come at such an important time to the Conservative government.

Iain Duncan Smith, a patsy in waiting……………….

A name synonymous with claimant deaths, unprecedented suicides and a history of lying…………

The real issue here should not just be about whether IDS will resign or not but more about the collective Tory governmental policy of pure hate orchestrated against thousands of working class people in the UK. Remember, IDS is just a cog in the Tory machine of mass murder. If IDS goes he will be simply replaced by another Nazi cunt.

Stepping & Geoff – The demise of this IDS psychopathic bastard cannot come soon enough. I hope that he does fall on his own sword (and also tells his many dirty secrets about the rest of the Tory scum) – but not before he answers for all of his cruelty and murderous lawbreaking and a date is finally set for his first day in Court.
I suspect though that you may be right Geoff – (in the paragraph beginning – “The Government will announce”) – they are all past masters at covering everything up and their media friends, will no doubt ‘support’ them all of the way. Just like they tried to cover up the ‘bad news’ of an ‘increase in unemployment’ today – twisting it into the ‘good news’ that employment has increased. They are all lying twats and again I say that I would love to see Rupert Murdoch in the dock for his empire’s lies and complicity with a Government that has dealt out so much shit (with perhaps even more to come!) to totally undeserving people. Murdoch has so much to answer for.
Meanwhile (as if they havent done enough damage already to the working poor, the sick and the disabled – Sky has announced that to help send back ‘failed asylum seekers’ they are going to give £2.1m into a special European fund and a further £200m to African Countries to help prevent poverty (which leads to asylum seekers/refugees in the first place).
I personally have no problem with sending any of these back – but why should we have to pay for it once again. Time after time this happens and there is no-one who seem to be able to stop Cameron & his bum-boy pals.
Our people can starve and die under a despicable and cruel sanctions regime – while they continue to give millions of pounds to ‘other countries’ – it beggars belief and is totally unacceptable. Again, where is the ‘Tax Payers Alliance’ to answer much needed questions about all of this?

It made my day Paul, when BLAIR was exposed as shagging Murdochs ex oriental wife. His secret trysts and rendevous with the hardfaced wife of the same man who allowed BLAIR to be the godfather of his own child.

BLAIR made MURDOCH look an absolute fool and darling Cherie was a mug for having him back after all the revelations came out.

Blair even borrowed a friends ranch to carry out his secret hokey pokey at the same time Cherie was filling her pockets as a barrister in the law courts.
The timing was perfect, Tony was up to his bollocks in Wendy while Cherie was knee deep in paperwork at the bar………….

No wonder the Chilcott report is long awaited, while our service personnel were getting their limbs blown off, Blair had his hand in his old friends glory hole………………

You can fuck around with statistics till the cows come home but the truth manifests itself in mysterious ways, like Carney not seeing a rate rise in the forseeable future and Sainsbury posting an !8% loss.

Britain is heading into a huge recession while the Conservatives arrange deckchairs on the Titanic.

Our poorest and infirm paying for their gross ineptitude while Dunko tries to bury the backlash.

Iceland punishes it’s failed bankers but the British bulldog spirit is to use our money to bail them out, issue them with knighthoods and then sell the bailed out banks back to the majority shareholders, us…………..

I cannot think of one improvement that the Tories have done for the mister average, they take your eyes and come back for the sockets.

The overseas tax havens are bursting at the seems with the ill gotten gains of corporate greed whilst cancer sufferers are forced into work, no morals, no scruples, the government are devoid of any feelings other than dancing of the graves of those they fuck at every corner,

I totally agree with your analysis Geoff regarding the complete lack of morals occuring under this horrible Tory government. In my opinion Cameron and his sidekicks should be arrested for crimes against humanity at the very least. Where is real justice when you need it?

“Iceland punishes it’s failed bankers but the British bulldog spirit is to use our money to bail them out, issue them with knighthoods and then sell the bailed out banks back to the majority shareholders, us…………..”

Geoff Reynolds, could you explain how we tax payers end up buying the banks, please? I know we are bailing them out but I didn’t know we actually bought them. If we did, then why can’t we slash CEOs’ wages, banker bonuses & sack the lot?

Ian Duncan Smith should of Resigned Years Ago and Equally
Austerity should of been Ended Years Ago

Twating Thatcher | November 11, 2015 at 10:31 pm | Reply

The real issue here should not just be about whether IDS will resign or not but more about the collective Tory governmental policy of pure hate orchestrated against thousands of working class people in the UK. Remember, IDS is just a cog in the Tory machine of mass murder. If IDS goes he will be simply replaced by another Nazi cunt.

Many employers are nervous about how customers and staff will interact with people with learning disabilities

Guardian – 10th Nov 2015

The government wants more people with disabilities working. In a recent speech, the work and pensions secretary Iain Duncan Smith said he aims to halve the employment gap between disabled and non-disabled people, and criticised businesses for failing to provide enough opportunities.

Yet a new survey by the charity Mencap reveals that many employers remain uneasy about the role they are expected to play in closing the gap. Only 16% of UK employers felt confident that the disability employment gap would be halved.

The survey also reveals nervousness about how customers and staff might interact with people with learning disabilities, a group still facing considerable exclusion.

I Hope the Homeless are Housed Not only over Christmas but the
Rest of the Year

A Place of Residence a Basic Human Right

GEOFF REYNOLDS | November 11, 2015 at 5:15 pm | Reply

Dunko the Clown is spending his christmas at home, the big top, with all the other clowns who provide him with gags.

For instance, Lord David Freud, the failed banker, an apparent wanker, who fucked up everything he touched.

The only person with zero medical knowledge and an inbred hatred of disabled that was asked to formulate opinion on welfare reforms on the weakest in society. Rather like Hitler giving an opinion on fitting showers!

…………YOU KEEP KILLING THEM AND WE WILL KEEP BURYING THEM UNTIL YOUR DIRTY, EVIL, FETID REGIME, STARTS TO ATTRACT MORE UNWANTED PUBLICITY.

Remembrance Day Patriotism Verses Glorification of Wars of Aggression such as Against Iraq .

Remembering the War Dead in a Dignified Manner is Not Wrong in itself but Glorification of Wars of Aggression such as Against Iraq and Afghanistan as Well as Trying to Brush under the Carpet the Brutal Savagery of the Fighting in the Trenches and the Conditions in the Trenches as Well as the Effect that the Hell of the Trenches had upon many Surviving Soldiers is Morally Wrong .

More Important than Red Poppies is Housing Homeless War Veterans and Giving them Support where Needed .

fly have you this handy link…. ‘European Citizens’ Initiative
for an Unconditional Basic Income’ http://basicincome2013.eu/en/index.html sorry it has quite a few long words i’m sure teacher will help you with them….

By obd they have got to work quick and altered that wording.
I won’t follow the link it would look like I was interested in it as a viable alternative to a welfare state for the poor not the rich.
I do have English A level do you?

I didn’t read it – but it must have the word unconditional neatly embedded in there now.
Some old lecturer came on here years ago trying to flog UBI which was not UC which I did read and nowhere did it state unconditional, he was Zac Goldsmiths pal along with other tories and I argued with him over it then.

Are you crazy it was the same UBI that you were flogging then and now, you argued with me also because I disagbreed with him, only now because of opposition have they decided it should be unconditional.
This blog is full of clowns like you OBD full of airy fairy words and so called good intentions, except none of you know what the bloody hell you are talking about, you contradict yourselves over and over again and gang up to shout down any opposition to your moronic mindset views.
You all need a good wake up call if you ask me.

Flyhawk@ why do bother !! Your whole purpose is to fuck people over with your hatred & malice of being correct all the time & are so perfect as to me the master of all. You are not here to get equality just slavery handed out at every mind set of your feeling you need a social worker which the blog has become for you. Your only purpose as proved is to spread hatred of some personal defect in your brain. war is the answer – peace is for losers. now Bernie get back to your £££ millions.

Having listened to the clap trap on here I’m not sure any of you are worthy of equality, you are the ones that call yourself a community but a community of what moaning minnies, you are the spiteful ones who slander anyone with a different viewpoint, you are all terrified you might learn something that would do you some good.
You are the ones that reject the voice of sanity, instead imposing your clown community thought police to lock people up as mental if they try to show you where you are going wrong.
I am an individual and always will be I have no time for crackpot communities..