Re: The REAL problem with Divine Spirit

The problem with DS, imho, is that:

- Right now, after the nerf to grace (completely inferior to BoS) and given that the spell around which disc gravitates (Power Word: Shield) is subject to too many restrictions to be the bread and butter of the build in a raid environment (weakened soul, especific cooldown) and the idea of damage prevention is completely rage unfriendly, I don't see a disc priest getting a spot into a Raid, so a holy priest will have to gimp himself in order to get it.

- The improved version of DS has been terribly nerfed (from 10% to 6%), and right now is inferior to many other buffs that don't stack with it (Focus Magic, Flametongue Totem, Totem of Wrath, Demonic Pact).

In BC I had always been a IDS holy priest, right now I don't think it's worth the investment. At least the improved version isn't worth the 2 extra points, not for a holy priest.

Re: The REAL problem with Divine Spirit

Originally Posted by Telitzp

Divine Spirit - 21 points needed into Discipline
In Wrath, this leaves us with 50 points left (48 if you get improved, which you kind-of have to, duh). Do you know what that means? We just got fucked out of our 51 point holy talent.

You're not forced to have it. In fact in beta there are being added several group mana regeneration mechanics (or plainly spirit, such as Felhunters' Fel Intellect), so priests aren't really "forced" to have it.

Originally Posted by Telitzp

All I am really saying is, I do not care if you make Divine Spirit base or not, but please just move it up in the tier's so we can get our 51 holy talent and still have improved divine spirit.

Every class wants their good talents upper in their talent trees but I don't see any good reason for having it.

Originally Posted by Telitzp

What if Blessing of Kings was 21 points?
What if Arcane Intellect was not base and was a 21 point talent in Arcane? (No 51 point talent for you mages)
What if Mark of the Wild was 21 points in Feral and you were a resto druid?

Shoot.. What if Blessing of Wisdom was in Ret (replenishment am I right? lol), and you were forced to spec 21 points in ret.

Fortitude is not a talented buff, and it's intended to help healers giving the target a greater HP pool to manage healings. Divine Spirit is an extra buff obtained via talents and is not usefull for all the classes or at least healing classes... so imo it's reasonable to be a talent.

I see no reasoning for "why do you need Divine Spirit + 51?"... apart from that I agree that maybe it needs a review, but before "yelling at Koraa", please, have real reasons to do it.

Re: The REAL problem with Divine Spirit

It's been communicated that they want to distinguish the Disc tree from the Holy tree. If you were to make DS available to every priest that wanted to go deep in the Holy tree there is little a Disc priest is bringing over a Holy priest.

Sure it sucks that we can't have both but talent trees are supposed to be designed in a way for you to make choices, not for everyone to get everything they want.

Re: The REAL problem with Divine Spirit

Just for a reminder. You will only need the 1 point in DS now if you bring a demonology warlock. As 10% of a warlocks spellpower (likely 2k+ at 80) would be 200 spellpower and 6% of a players spirit (800 if they are lucky) would be like 48.

And as has been mentioned, the end holy talent, while neat and fun, provides almost 0 overall healing increase. I don't know exactly why they feel the need to normalize a buff that you can only keep on a max of 3 people by totally emptying your mana pool.

Re: The REAL problem with Divine Spirit

Originally Posted by thethain

Just for a reminder. You will only need the 1 point in DS now if you bring a demonology warlock. As 10% of a warlocks spellpower (likely 2k+ at 80) would be 200 spellpower and 6% of a players spirit (800 if they are lucky) would be like 48.

it will probably not be much reliable, since it needs pet to crit, dunno bout felguards, but i guess with all those aoes, it will be pretty nasty to keep them up

Re: The REAL problem with Divine Spirit

Notice:This is from my point of view, my opinion feel free to criticize but don't flame plx Its not like I expect Designers to read these forums, feel free to continue on this track @ the beta forums but I have no key *hint hint*, let alone actually consider this but i would want to give it a try anyways

Whit the changes made to spirit/int Spirit became a very very nice stat to have for Priests and Druids(of the healing kind atleast).

As i see it they apparently they don't see the need to make the buff standard.
Because it's supposed to be one of the reasons to bring a disc priest to the raid, yea right, and my smite does over ninethousand dps, the buff it nice don't get me wrong but the amount of healing power u loose over it, oh my.. atm it costs us our 41 talent point and in wotlk its gonna cost our 51 talent point, even more if improved.

What they should do(imo ofc)
-Make Divine Spirit a base buff trainable for everyone from the trainer.

-Change the improved version, as it only favors spirit heavy casters, Ye i know it bufs spirit.. but this so called reason to bring us to raids is outscaled by more then one buff, mages generally don't go for spirit, neither do warlocks and moonkins, if this changes in wotlk then ok but for now it ain't the case.

A good option would be to let them gain spellpower by for example 10% of the buffers spirit like whit the druid healing aura or just simply give it a static + amount of spellpower. Also putting a highly demanded buff which actually favours priests of all classes there the most at such a position in the three is just /point /laugh

-Now we come to the interesting part, where to put the Imp DS.
My idea;
Enlightenment->DS&imp DS spot, Meditation as requirement.
Blessed Recovery -> Enlightenment's old spot
Healing Prayers -> Blessed Recovery old spot, this leaves a small gap in the tree but at least there are other decent talents to pick. The first few tiers lack this option badly.
I don't want Holy nova or blessed recovery for raiding and for a deep holy priest extra crit is meh as well, spell warding has it use in current content but we don't know if it will be the same in wotlk.
Imp IDS -> Tier 6 Holy tree next to Spiritual Healing, Spiritual Guidance as a requirement.

As far as I can see this would be a really nice change, not to overpowered, not breaking the disc or holy tree.

Re: The REAL problem with Divine Spirit

As a disc priest since BC, I feel that although we heal lesser than holy spec priest, we have higher survivability than them and a bigger mana pool to make up for it. I do not know why some pally like to compare themselves with the priest but our healing style are different, much like how druid heals compare to a priest.

With regards to the problem with DS, I guess Blizz can make it a base spell but the problem is coming up with another spell that will be looked forward to by the disc priest users. If the spell is not as liked as DS, then no1 literally, will be a disc priest anymore. It will fall back to pre-BC standard of having holy or shadow priest with disc as nth but a supplement tree.

Re: The REAL problem with Divine Spirit

Define a disc priest inside raids, I really do not believe the amount of tricks and utility u get by speccing, lets say 51 pts, disc out values the massive amount of healing u loose on virtually all your main healing spells. Certainly not in tbc and its very very doubtful this will be the case in wotlk.

As for me, 23 pts in disc has always been the max for me, unless I'm going to pvp/arena of course. And to be honest this is where the tree looks perfect for in wotlk, same shit as in tbc moving on the same path. As mages have Arcane/Fire/Frost we get pvp healing/Pve Healing/DPS. I would like to hear otherwise but it looks like this at the moment.

Also, no disc priests anymore is out of the question, Meditation is a must have for every priest basically.

Re: The REAL problem with Divine Spirit

I disagree. With the mana Disc can generate through DA and PW:S by way of rapture puts them at the efficiency of a holy paladin for spamming healing spells, and with enough crit, there will almost ALWAYS be a shield up on tank.

Will disc's heals ever be as powerful as holy's? no. But while holy can only heal, disc can heal and prevent damage.

Soon as blizz comes up with a way for tanks to get rage/mana through shields, disc-priests will be fighting holy paladins for MT-healing raid spots.

Re: The REAL problem with Divine Spirit

Originally Posted by Whoru

I disagree. With the mana Disc can generate through DA and PW:S by way of rapture puts them at the efficiency of a holy paladin for spamming healing spells, and with enough crit, there will almost ALWAYS be a shield up on tank.

Will disc's heals ever be as powerful as holy's? no. But while holy can only heal, disc can heal and prevent damage.

Soon as blizz comes up with a way for tanks to get rage/mana through shields, disc-priests will be fighting holy paladins for MT-healing raid spots.

Couldent have said it better

but

Stop the damn QQing about DS... Its a disc spell (mostly) and tbh imo its what flips the coin that raids should bring a disc at all. As it is now there is a decent chance that we are getting 3 spots... 1 for eatch spec. And that is more then we could ever ask for.

Everyone thinks their world is falling.. If they had a solid sense of perspective, they probably wouldn't be gamers.

Re: The REAL problem with Divine Spirit

Originally Posted by Whoru

I disagree. With the mana Disc can generate through DA and PW:S by way of rapture puts them at the efficiency of a holy paladin for spamming healing spells, and with enough crit, there will almost ALWAYS be a shield up on tank.

Will disc's heals ever be as powerful as holy's? no. But while holy can only heal, disc can heal and prevent damage.

Soon as blizz comes up with a way for tanks to get rage/mana through shields, disc-priests will be fighting holy paladins for MT-healing raid spots.

Yes, if it was only a matter of bringing healing power to one target. However paladins still bring the different blessings, and grace isn't fixed yet.

"Only Jack can zip up."
The word you want to use is "have" not "of".
You may have alot of stuff in your country, but we got Lolland.

Re: The REAL problem with Divine Spirit

I can somewhat understand the grace nerf, it was too powerful. 9% reduced damage and increased healing? it would've been almost mandatory to bring a disc-priest, which is EXACTLY what blizzard is trying to move away from: making one class/spec's buff so powerful that it's a necessity to bring them regardless of skill. So grace and BoSanc do the same thing, so what? means if you don't have one, you can compensate by bringing the other.

between holy light glyph that makes it a small AoE heal, flourish, CoH, and CH, that's all the raid healing we're ever going to need, can't find the actual post but they HAVE stated that LK raids will not have the amount of raid-wide damage we're currently seeing in places like BT and SWP. anymore healing spots will be filled in depending on the fight.

Re: The REAL problem with Divine Spirit

Grace allows you to grant 3% damage reduction on a single player after casting 3 spells on him (4.5s and mana) and spending 2 talents, and by the way will last 8 seconds.

BoSanc allows you to bless the entire raid before combat begins, and provides an unlimited source of Rage/Mana/Runic power for tanks it is cast on, for spending 1 talent.

Saying that two skills are the same just because they do not stack is not true. One is harder to apply, has to be maintained, requires more talent points, and lacks the arguably more powerful secondary effect.

That said anyone who didn't know that grace was going to be nerfed the second they saw it is either naive or just plain foolish. But they took it from miracle to less than nothing, it would probably be best to just let it be scrapped and let the paladins have BoSanc as a unique buff (Kings, Wisdom, and Sancs Secondary effect are all already unique to them anyways).

Its hard to think of an acceptable replacement for it, since the stance is now whatever you get needs to be a knockoff of an existing ability, or only affect you. Maybe a charge type effect that increases crit chance rather dramatically, to help keep Divine Aegis going, like each heal grants Grace, increasing the chance of your heals to critically heal by 10%, stacks 3 times, but when you crit it is reset.

Re: The REAL problem with Divine Spirit

Considering the philosophy on buffs/debuffs, there is no way they are going to let classes have unique buffs because that will lead to the raid needing that particular class/spec and the idea is for you to be able to raid effectively without having the class/spec makeup dictated to you.

Your raid may not have a prot pally to raid with, instead you get the effect from a Disc Priest. Blessing of Wisdom isn't unique to a pally either, Shamans have mana spring totem (however it seems these will stack as I don't see them listed as nonstackable buffs atm).

Kings does seem to be unique atm, but I'd wager that another class is going to get a stat muliplier buff at some point.

In any case, the idea is your raid can choose between BoSanc or Grace, obviosly BoSanc has it's benefits but it will be at the cost of another potential blessing and will only apply to those who are blessed by it, where as Grace can be applied to anyone at any given time after 3 heals.

Re: The REAL problem with Divine Spirit

Originally Posted by Worshaka

Considering the philosophy on buffs/debuffs, there is no way they are going to let classes have unique buffs because that will lead to the raid needing that particular class/spec and the idea is for you to be able to raid effectively without having the class/spec makeup dictated to you.

Your raid may not have a prot pally to raid with, instead you get the effect from a Disc Priest. Blessing of Wisdom isn't unique to a pally either, Shamans have mana spring totem (however it seems these will stack as I don't see them listed as nonstackable buffs atm).

Kings does seem to be unique atm, but I'd wager that another class is going to get a stat muliplier buff at some point.

In any case, the idea is your raid can choose between BoSanc or Grace, obviosly BoSanc has it's benefits but it will be at the cost of another potential blessing and will only apply to those who are blessed by it, where as Grace can be applied to anyone at any given time after 3 heals.

Grace is terrible at the moment. It's needs more additional effects. Who in their right mind would spend 3 talent points on this piece of crap. This is just another way to weed out the newbies you don't want in your guild.

Re: The REAL problem with Divine Spirit

a)always was the same with divine spirit, you had to lose the last talent of holy
b)since the buffs nerf, mages/shammy/locks will use a spelldmg buff(bigger than spirit), so you only will use the mp5 of the buff, and people can live without it

Re: The REAL problem with Divine Spirit

Originally Posted by Telitzp

Grace is terrible at the moment. It's needs more additional effects. Who in their right mind would spend 3 talent points on this piece of crap. This is just another way to weed out the newbies you don't want in your guild.

I remember people saying the same thing about CoH at the start of BC and that ended up being such a dominate spell in end game raiding.

Not saying Grace of BoSanc will do that in WotLK but I'll reserve final judgment on what effect 3% damage reduction will mean after I experience the content. I think the fact that players already have different opinions on buffs such as this means that the talents are working. The goal was to get some diversity in how players would spec instead of creating a tree that would result in a vast majority of players selecting the exact same cookie cutter talents.

Again I like how black and white you are with your opinion, because everything boils down to yes and no apparently.

Re: The REAL problem with Divine Spirit

Originally Posted by Worshaka

I remember people saying the same thing about CoH at the start of BC and that ended up being such a dominate spell in end game raiding.

Not saying Grace of BoSanc will do that in WotLK but I'll reserve final judgment on what effect 3% damage reduction will mean after I experience the content. I think the fact that players already have different opinions on buffs such as this means that the talents are working. The goal was to get some diversity in how players would spec instead of creating a tree that would result in a vast majority of players selecting the exact same cookie cutter talents.

Again I like how black and white you are with your opinion, because everything boils down to yes and no apparently.

I like how you don't know that CoH was reworked several times. Seriously, who the hell are you and why do you continue to post in the priest forums?

It's enough. I read the first sentence of your posts and go: sigh /wrists