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"- ii,tHe was a minister. He hadn't retired. He was getting-t- ---
-'c -^^yJ cfse ^r

19

I: I know you've heard him say how old he was when he first started

r--------?U

S: Oh, I've forgotten.

I: He was just a boy wasn't he?

S: Uh, huh. Was he 12 or--I believe he was 12 or 15 years old.

But he good--uh, daddy said he was the good one in the family.

I'm not bragging--I'm stating a fact. I'm saying what she

said. She said it don't matter what you put--they called him

Zim--his name was ---- and they called him Zim. It don't

matter what I had to do that was particular. I could leave Zim

to do it and it was done. And he was scared to death of a gun.

And I don't believe he shot but one in his life and killed a cat

accidentally. He, uh, before he was born, now this is one of the

superstitions, you know,that our folks have. That before a child r

born, you know,if his mother's frightened, he'll be the same way.

When. .

I: The child will be --------

S: Yeah, when Henry B(rry Lowry was hiding out then and Granny and

Grandpap had a big plantation. They had fences and they had their

orchard up side the fence. And Granny was there getting apples in

her apron. That was ----two-four--Daddy was four. He come across

the fence of this thing and he seen the condition she was in. And

he said he couldn't turn around and go back, because if he did, you

know, she was stooping down to pick up apples so if she'd heard me,
II
when she turned around, she was all frightened. So he said, Miss
II
Chavis, don't be afiid, I'm not going to hurt you. She turned around

20

and looked at him. She said she liked to have died, because,

you know, she had heard so much about him. (Background: And

you do remember your grandmother pretty well?) es, I do, yes.

F (Background: how old was she when she died?) She was 84. My

mother was the same age when, uh, my mother died.

I: How many children do you think your mother helped to bring into

the world? Have you any idea?

S: I wouldn't say. I wouldn't dare say. Now, Brother Ulsey has a

record to those, pages. And it's a file of them, which she was.

I: It was in the hundreds or thousands.

S: I believe they said the last--the last account they had on her;

I believe my sister said there were 1900 and something. She did

quite a few after daddy. A Ou know they completely abandoned

midwives.

I: Yeah.

S: She was too old anyway. J t I have seen her go and when she come
C C? ) re
in--her sfk I .. .. would b for Thursday night here and they

wore long dresses and ------ --walking, you know, go across the

foot log in the winter and go and make her baby. (background: she

was blessed.) ^ ------.....

S: Yes, she was blessed. She didn't suffer--I believe it was about

six hours; she was ----- old lady. Went out and looked at

her flowers, Wednesday, I believe she said. She showed me what

she wanted. And then she said, come spring, I'll not be here when
HI II II
they out. I .said, Mama how you do talk. That's craxy! And she

had been in there playing with the grandbaby, Avis's children.

21

Certainly she used to --------.

I: All of the older people were--were they more neighborly to each

other than people today?

S: Yes, well, you know I think now like--like the old saying is,

"I measure everybody's corn by my half bushel." Now I think my

intents are good. But you know intents don't feel a hungry person's

stomach or don't help a sick person do a thing. But I think people,

like me, they have so much to do they just don't get to it. Now you

take when mama and daddy was raising us and all, all we did was pick

cotton, and worked in a little bit of tabacco and visit people. And

if somebody got sick, it didn't matter how long they stayed sick, if

they stayed sick a month. You know they had--or months--they had people

to sit up with them and tend to them.

I: People would come from miles and miles around here. Your father

would pray for them especially if they were sick, wouldn't they?

S: Yeah, yeah, and I have seen that faith exercised here so much

until.

I: He was so good. He was loved by the people.

S: When he was sick, now people came. ..

22

SIDE TWO

I: Side two--side two of the interveiw with Mrs. Woodrow Dial.

Uh, you were talking about your father, I believe, when we
so
ran out of tape. I was listeningtintently to what you had to

say, I didn't realize it was out of tape. I wonder if we could

kind of go other this called his healing ministry. A I saying

it correciy?

S: Yeah, that's all right.

I: Let's talk about &iat a little more. We-and what you were just

saying is very interesting.

S: Well, I asked him why couldn't I train and do the same thing he did

I: Well, he's certainly a man who has been missed and will be missed for

many years to come. Sometimes we wonder who's going to replace a man

like that. But really nobody can, can they?

S: I don't think so. I mean they've been well-liked by the-------------

L-

24

You remember Daddy always wanted to pray that he received the

gift that he had. And Jim always said, Now Pa, I can't

---, I have to have mine. And, so he kept on and on and

on but let me tell you what happened. Brother Jim had said and

said and said that h didn't, well, he didn't think he could ever

come near f't. qNow people go to Jim just like they did my daddy.

He prays for them. He goes to the prison in the afternoons.

i--- tl ----so forth. He started just like Daddy. When Daddy

started, he went to some of the meeting association --

"- "'---. The public was shocked. He asked them about, you know,

when the Lord called him, when he really dedicated his life to them.

I don't know if you remembered when he was sick--I believe he was

about 74 years old, we he had a hemorrhage,l know you heard about

it but you didnt--probably forgotten. But he asked those men about

it, and he said, Oh, no, there's nothing to that; that was done

in the Old Testament. I-didh.e---- ----- ----------; he

didn't intend for us to do that, some of our leading ministers.

He come on back, well, he didn't do it. But he got sick. Remember

Lewis when we stayed over there in the ole' John Wood's place, that's

what it was. And, uh, (Background: Put your mic on there if you

want.) They would have o-do ---- -, you know.

They were looking for him to die every night7-every day and every

night. But he had two--he had -

And they took X-rays of him and they tell us that his lungs were

(AL eat out. ckground: Your daddy? My daddy. They says his lungs

Share eat up. So, well we just give up, you know. Woodrow I believe/

25

stayed that night. -was ----------came in the next morning.

Woodrow said he had prayed through the night. As weak as he

was, he'd had another hemorrhage. And the doctor suggested
---- h And this old nurse come in

and she prayed -----. -

-- -- : ___---------------. About 4 o' clock

the next morning, he woke up and wanted ice and sugar.

I: Wanted ice and sugar.

S: Ice and sugar. Children he mended from then right on, he mended;

well it was just. (Background: What did the doctor say?) They

took him back down to X-ray. And they couldn't understand 1 .i.

Well, the old nurse tried to tell him.-----------------------
eJ '-< ,',, _,,,
--- r ----------- And he said he

dedicated himself and we told him what he said to do no matter what.

He says, I'll go on in spite of what everybody says, I'll go on and

do what you want me to do. Says all right -----o---you go and----;

come back and when they took him down they X-rayed him. The doctors

they took the X-rays and they said, those are clear as a bell. Well,

somebody says, well what went with this, I mean what happened? Well,
I,
one of the doctors, Dr. Meese, Dr. Maze, Dr. Maze says,well, all we

can say is, he swallowed a whole lot of that clotted blood and he

had his lungs covered and he passed on. That's everything they could
i!
say. And one of them they mid, well, he was in the hands of the Lord.

I: Well, they had to explain it scientifically didn't they?

S: Yeah, well, they had to, you know that. (Bakground: they had to put
--.----. ~ ~ : ..
i t down) Yeah. Well, this one of them that's a Christian--I don't

what he's a called now. But he says, this is a miracle, this is a

26.

S..... -- swallowed the cancer, the cancer you know.

SI didrit know! I tell you it was wonderful and it was wonderful to

see how he mended, how he come home, and he had the Indian people.

And the first girl I see come in there, I believe it was, uh, the

the old man Don Clark's girl, Betty Jane.

I: How old were you when this happened, about?

S: I don't even know. I could, you know, think back and tell it, but

right now I can't. But they brought her in--we were out there behind

the bushes in the front yard, hoeing yards.

I: were still---

S: Yeah, me and Leonore. And they toted this girl in, you know, and I
*A c / .c*A -7-1 110 ^.c
said well, .And
II II
that girl came back there working, talking, Hey, lola, what'da doing?
It II
I said, hoeing grass, come here and help me. I mean things like that

I assumed--after he came to live with me, I---come a man out there

one night, and he had, I reckon, four big boys- -ookin boys.

He toted them in here. He had on--I'll never forget it, always

when he -----people you know I would take the kids that were

here, the grandchildren would go in that room in there. I cleaned

out the glass in that room there. I said, well I'm going to see what

you--I'm going to see if you, if you walk out there. Whenever they

started out, I kept looking for the man--kept looking for them to

carry him out. And the last man that come out jumped from the top

step down there on the ground and that was the man. He said --

the man over there across the river--but he says, honey, I'm telling

27

/1
you that's the truth, I feel it.

I: Well, can you think of any of the old words, you know, which have

survived among the Lumbee Indians like old English words, mostly

I'm talking about. You know we don't notice them but when people

come in from the outside, they notice them. And sometimes they

remark Iyou know about them. For example, I always think of

jewvimber--nobody knows what a jewvimber is)but a Lumbee Indian.
I' I/
But you wouldn't have to think twice to know what a jewvimber was

would you?

S: Course not. I mean, you know, that's. .

"B{ 1B_...ag.na I've made them.

S: Yeah, that's a everyday thing here in -----------. Let's see

---.-- ; I'll probably think of something when you're gone.

I: But these words still linger on, don't they?

S: Oh, yes.
/I If
I: We say 'nigh" instead of "near"--co5e nigh. It

S: Now, that's what my daddy said, i-r La d I i t And he had

so many words he said.

I: This is very interesting to people when they come in from the outside.

But we're so used to it--we don't notice it ourselves very much. Would

you know what somebody said if he said, yourhat was on "catawhopS7."?

S: Yeah, (laugh) I say that now--boy you've got that hat on catawhopM",

take it off--I do. I really use that word, maybe I shouldn't.

I: If somebody looked at me and said, "boy you're a Tadim, Would you know

what they meant?

S: Yeah, you look kind of weird and you're not hip, as the young people

28

would say. But you're coarse looking. Yeah, I would say that too.

Ain't you a fadim! I tell you I bet when you leave, I can think

of some fadims.

I: And if they call them, if they said now, "put the wood on the piles"--

you would know where to put it, wouldn't you?

S: Of course, on the front porch or the back porch. Highesa (?)-----

highesa.

I: Highest?

S: uh, hum.

I: Hearth?

S: Uh, hum.

I: I don't even know the correct pronunciation for it myself.

S: That is the hearth, h-e-a-r-t-h We call it the "hath".

I: Can you reme bp seeing any Indian women smoking a pipe?

S ----- ----smoked a pipe. O course, I didn't see -----'f

that was my great-grandmother. Granny smoked a pipe--little ole

Granny ---------------granny. Now,

I: Ateen, Ateen do you remember her?

S: No, I, you know, I never allowed to go out until I got grown.

I: I remember Ateen would smoke a pipe and she would--they would be

play pipes. And she would get her a coal of fire, get tongs, something

that you can, you know, use when you are mending the fire, And she

would go a-- a__a fire and light her pipe with that. A lotcf the older

ladies smoked.

S: Granny did that. Big granny h d-ittle .

I: They had to have a certain amount of age on them before you were.

S: Allowed to smoke. Because if you were caught with a cigarette back

29

then you were dubbed as nothing.

I: How about some of our superstitions? I know you don't believe in

old superstitions and so on but, do any of them speak of in your

mind? Have you heard--waht have you heard people say about old
Il
Christmas, for example?

S: About the ------ -

I: Uh, huh.

S: Well, they, uh, that's what they say. They wake up at six o'clock

in the morning and -L- --C#LP---- ^ L -- -^ e^ .

Now my mother said that actually did help us. I didn't ever see it.

I: I never saw it myself but did you ever hear this--you know when
guitar
people talk about a A they used to call it a box. Did you ever

hear that if you wanted to really learn to play a box, you go to

the crossroads at midnight, seven nights)and on the seventh night,

the devil will meet you and teach you how to play.

S: (laugh)

I: Have you heard that?

S: Yeah, and that if you--if you make your crossmark, too, at the steps,

the witches can't come in the house. CTf-5 /f745 J

I: Keep the witches out.

S: It keeps the witches out to make your crossmark, you know, they won't

come under a crossmark.

I: And a horseshoe is supposed to be lucky.

S: Lucky, yeah. And, uh.

I: People have asked me lots of different questions. .for example, people

would ask about toothbrushes, now what did Indians do when they had no

30

II YI
toothbrushes? But they never heard of an Indian toothbrush. Do

you know what I'm talking about?

S: Uh, take white gums and cut a brush, I mean, cut a thing off

that you r -- --4. money, I'm 7. .M

-^----- doif myself. They take a big wad of sluff and

put on that and. (background: that's what the old women used)

Yeah, didn't have to buy toothbrushes--that's why we have to have

so much money now. Have to buy toothbrushes and ...

I: Uh, well everybody doesn't have bathrooms even today but, uh, ak-

me the truth, did you ever get behind the barn and get in a wooden

tub? You have to hide, you knowutll. .

S: (laugh) No, I never did that. (laugh)

I: I remember u know) when I was brought up-I know it was pretty rough.

Go to the river as often as possible for this was more pleasant than.

I: (laugh) You know when you used to go to the river swimming, nobody

wore bathing suits, at least, none of the guys did. I don't think

the girls went in.

S: No, the girls weren't allowed to go with the guys swimming. Because

the guys had to go in the nude and the girls wore fancy slips you know and

an old thin dress and. .

I: Uh, huh. And you might as well had nothing on if you had that because

it only accented .

S: (laugh) That's the truth, that's what I was fixing to say.

I: But I can remember many times, though, of being down at the river and

everybody in his birthday suit and have a watch where somebody kind of

31

hang out behind and somebody yell out, women, women! (laugh) You

could hear the guys falling in the water like frogs off logs you know.

And there we'd stay until the women left or until the women passed if

they were going down the path. And as soon as they were out of sight,

it was all right again.

S: And now you go to the beaches and honest, the children just don't

have on no clothes. I go down and fish sometimes.

I: Notmuch different than a bikini and the way wemight go out there.

S: No and the way the girls had to--you know, girls weren't allowed

too much to go to them. Because it was unladylike to swim and do

stuff like that.

I: I know if you were with a husband or somebody.

S: No, we weren't allowed to go with the boys for anything. Now,

my mother, I'm telling you, she was so strict it was pathetic.

But it was nice.

I: How about your dating rules?

S: Let's not talk about it. You're talking about at home when I

was at home with mama? Well, she was pretty lenient with me

after I was 19 years old. But up until I was 19 years old, I

wasn't allowed to--I wasn't allowed to date)period. I talked

to a bo Sunday evening and uh, he walked with me from the church

where you know ------- -t--church. When we came from

church and we weren't leaving about three o'clock or something.

Now she would sit there and begin to look at that clock. Until

that boy leave.

I: This would be--because at that time some people would call it

at nine but more germal ones would call at ten.

32

S: I've never gotten a date til I was nineteen years old. When I--

you know4-you know--when I went to dating when I ------

I: And it's the parents--if the father yelled out "bedtime" you'd

better be getting out, if you didn't you'd hear some big feet

hitting the floor and then you'd better be getting up.

S: That girl better be in bed in a few minutes.

I: They didn't repeat it.

S: No, no, uh, uh.

I: Said "bedtime"--I don't know whether had time for a last kiss or not.

S: Wonder, reckon how the girls survive now. If..

I: I think it's more lenient now, don't you?

S: It's too lenient; it's too lenient.

I: Do you think you can be--go to the extremes in other directions? Too tight?

S: Yes, you can. You can be too tight or too lenient. I, uh, my mother

was very understanding though, After she says, you're old enough now

to take care of yourself. I've taught you what's right and what's

wrong. I've taught you what will happen to you if you do something
'I
bad. Now if you go out there and get in trouble, it's your fault.

So I was allowed to date and my sister.

I: How long did you date?

S: Hum, about two years.

I: And I don't think either one of you were ever involved with anybody

else.

S: No. I don't know about him--I wasn't. I don't think so.

I: How about the parents. You know, when you were coming along. The

parents didn't believe in more than one boy dating the girl.

33

S: No, I, you--definitely did not have but one boyfriend. If you did,

you got tore up and made to stay home for good. And like--you know

like this boy come along and fussed with this boy a little. Oh,

you were branded a bad girl--you were a bad girl.

I: An aybe A had nothing at all to do with it.

S: No, no. You didn't.

I: Just happened to be free.

S: And maybe he wanted.

I: Nice curves.

S: Yeah .(laugh) The first boy I ever--walked with me from church,uh,

is na me ------ stayed in the house right

across from us. I don't know if you remember that house or not--

it's still there. But when we got along right in front of that

house, ----- sitting on the porch. And I had a great big

belt around the white dress. And that belt dropped all the way

down to the ground. And I got so embarrassed I cried and I never

talked to him again. Now he didn't have anything to do with that

belt falling nor with them laughing at me. But I couldn't stand it.

And he was a nice guy.

I: You were very sensitive.S:I was sixteen years old then. Mama says
II I '1
you had no business on tha-road with him no how.

I: Do you think Indian girls are generally shy?

S: Yeah.

I: Or shyer than other people?

S: Yes, they are.

I: Somehow this is very appealing to me when, uh, you know girls blush and
I

34

ril SeW fi o
this sort of thing. Jow speaking purely from mana point of view.

S: Uh, huh. Well, I think, maybe I'm talking out of turn but I do link

boys respect_.girls more who blush or shy.

I: This could be a front, you know.

S: Oh, how well I know that. Let's not talk about that.

I: lola, we've talked about a lot of things and uh,

(Tape fads out for a few seconds)

I: And, of course, I have really enjoyed this. And I am sure we

are bringing out some things that our readers and our listeners

don't know about and we're trying to be very casual about it and

mention some of the things--some of the personal habits. Do people

generally believe in ghosts or haints or ghosts?

S: Definitely. Let me tell you about the ghost that goes from my

father from one corner of the--out there at the mailboxe-and you've

been to my house, my daddy's house. There's, well you know where

BearSwamp Bridge is, down there close to the church, you know where

St. Anna's Church is. Well, there's a bridge down there and this

guy, they say, goes from bridge to the railroad. Or mostly down

there at Ernest Lowry's old place turned around. Now my daddy

said he had walked with him. He wasn't afraid of him. He said

he had walked with him and a lot of times and when it wasn't a man,

no head, it was a big dogT-trot right on down the road til somebody

come along, disappear.

I: Do think electric lights, when electric lights came to the country

that sort of drove them away?

S: Well, most cf the ghosts were shadows--shadows of trees, because I

heard Woodrow say one night uh, I believe it was dogfilms--you know

how they bloom in the frost--you know, just before frost hits them.

35

And they were staying in the woods--and he said in the storm somebody

dropped in white you know. But now I won't say that they don't some

of them see things. See jack-o-laterns--you ever seen a jack-o-latern?

I: Uh, huh. I've seen lights and couldn't figure out what they were.

And they weren't what we call lightning bugs.

S: Uh, uh. No, 't are different..

I: By the way, listeners and readers who wouldn't know what a lightning