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Firstly let's clear the scene. The thread was dead. No one was having much to do with it. I thought I'd get it going again. (who knows, maybe I felt sorry for Dan as he had started a thread and not many felt willing to participate) I respect those who start threads. In plain English, at that point in time there was no discussion active.

No...you don't
I have asked you politely and respectfully not to engage me or my discussions. Essentially, to leave me alone. You continue to force me to tolerate you, unwillingly and there is not much I can do about it . Where is your statement of respect toward others?

Quote:

I was communicating to Dan or referring to him and giving him the chance to offer his opinion. An exploratory comment. Any inference was me inferring that Ueshiba's Aikido was based on Kotodama.
Regards.G.

I have no interest in reading your views on anything relating to Martial arts, nor responding to you about them or hearing your replies. Please leave me alone
Notice there are no angry words, no sarcasm, nothing inferred, no insults...just another polite request for you to leave.
Dan

Ueshiba:
右手をば陽にあらわし左手は陰にかえして相手みちびけ"Manifest yo (yang) in the right hand, change the left hand to in (yin) and guide the opponent."

This of course directly relates to Chinese artsHon Jun Sheng:I realized then that Chen Xin's model of the Host hand and guest hand; where the guest hand receives and the host hand guides in perfect balance.

Ueshiba again:
＜念＞にもとづき『気の妙用』をはかるには、まず五体の左は武の基礎、右は宇宙の受ける気結びの現われる土台であると心得よ。この左・右の気結びがおのずから成就すれば、 あとの動きは自由自在となる。"In order to achieve the mysterious workings of ki based upon intent, first realize the appearance of the foundation that is the ki connection (ki musubi) between the left side of the physical body grounded in the martial and the right that receives the universe. If you can achieve this connection between the left and the right then you will be able to move with complete freedom."

Dan,

I assume those are the new translations. Do you by chance have the old ones, for comparison?

Since the "Eight Powers of the Kototama" has been brought up, let me just throw this out there. The most prevalent reference to "Eight Powers' as it relates to Kototama can be found in the Dobun - here is a link to it on the aikidogaq site:

This appears to be just another translated interpretation via a filtered perspective based on one's opinion of what Ueshiba was saying and writing. In order to find a more objective viewpoint of the Kototama, I went to Masahilo Nakazono's book Inochi; which goes into the Kototama in much detail. In the book there is no reference to ‘Eight Powers' as explained in the Dobun, but there is reference to the four mother sounds of U, A, O, E and the eight father sounds/rhythms of T,K,M,H,L,N,Y,S, which when combined create the child sounds.

Interesting enough though, there is reference in the Dobun and Inochi that support Dan's statement of:

"Ueshiba again:
＜念＞にもとづき『気の妙用』をはかるには、まず五体の左は武の基礎、右は宇宙の受ける気結びの現われる土台であると心得よ。この左・右の気結びがおのずから 成就すれば、 あとの動きは自由自在となる。
"In order to achieve the mysterious workings of ki based upon intent, first realize the appearance of the foundation that is the ki connection (ki musubi) between the left side of the physical body grounded in the martial and the right that receives the universe. If you can achieve this connection between the left and the right then you will be able to move with complete freedom."

In Inochi, Nakazona states that ‘U' is the chaotic beginning and ‘A' is the light of life; ‘WA' is phenomena lit up by the light of ‘A' , and each dimension is an independent manifestation. He also goes on to explain that ‘A' represents the a priori and ‘WA' the posteriori human capacity, which is connected via the ‘I-WI' life force dimension, which is KI. In looking at Dan's statement above, you see that the point being made is that one part of the body is connected to "A" and the other ‘WA' - or the spiritual and physical with the connection enabled by Ki - or the in-yo of the human existence.

Greg

Greg. In the book by Nakazono I see no reference to that statement, however I may be wrong there. He mentions yin yang only once in the whole book.

He mentions the eight powers quite definitively which I do not see in the aikidofaq dobun. In fact he calls them the eight motive rhythms.

So maybe this is a case of misunderstanding, maybe partly caused by me.

The eight motive rhythms are individually called powers and they number eight in total.

Every one of them relates to Aikido as well as the universe itself.

In my view these things were the the base of Ueshibas Aikido and thus his interpretation is the manifestation of Aikido itself.

Transcending the realm of logic and as used in this society as explained in that book.

I assume those are the new translations. Do you by chance have the old ones, for comparison?

Hello Jason
You would have to go find them.
Some are mentioned in the Kamae thread here.
Interestingly there are whole paragraphs left out (not translated at all) in the middle of an explanation. One of which is Ueshiba describing an almost book match description of spiraling to taiji.
Others where John Stevens skipped Ueshiba's repeated use of six directions as 60deg in hanmi.
The reasons are not nefarious...it is ignorance of an almost mundane and pedestrian terminology by and large unknown to these men who went on to became our teachers. It's sad really.
Hence the reason I used one of my own seminars as an example; where almost twenty Aikido people (teachers and students) were standing in a room with eight ICMA (teachers and students) and the ICMA guys looked at the AIkido teachers and basically said How could you people NOT KNOW this stuff?
I honestly don't know who was more surprised when I began reading Ueshiba quotes out loud.
All the best
Dan
P.S. Hey I got your P.M.'s...it's all good dude. And yes I am re-thinking it. You couldn't fault me after hearing about the threats in public seminars. People can be very weird. What about this winter when it cools off?

Since the "Eight Powers of the Kototama" has been brought up, let me just throw this out there. The most prevalent reference to "Eight Powers' as it relates to Kototama can be found in the Dobun - here is a link to it on the aikidogaq site:

This appears to be just another translated interpretation via a filtered perspective based on one's opinion of what Ueshiba was saying and writing. In order to find a more objective viewpoint of the Kototama, I went to Masahilo Nakazono's book Inochi; which goes into the Kototama in much detail. In the book there is no reference to ‘Eight Powers' as explained in the Dobun, but there is reference to the four mother sounds of U, A, O, E and the eight father sounds/rhythms of T,K,M,H,L,N,Y,S, which when combined create the child sounds.

Interesting enough though, there is reference in the Dobun and Inochi that support Dan's statement of:

"Ueshiba again:
＜念＞にもとづき『気の妙用』をはかるには、まず五体の左は武の基礎、右は宇宙の受ける気結びの現われる土台であると心得よ。この左・右の気結びがおのずから 成就すれば、 あとの動きは自由自在となる。
"In order to achieve the mysterious workings of ki based upon intent, first realize the appearance of the foundation that is the ki connection (ki musubi) between the left side of the physical body grounded in the martial and the right that receives the universe. If you can achieve this connection between the left and the right then you will be able to move with complete freedom."

In Inochi, Nakazona states that ‘U' is the chaotic beginning and ‘A' is the light of life; ‘WA' is phenomena lit up by the light of ‘A' , and each dimension is an independent manifestation. He also goes on to explain that ‘A' represents the a priori and ‘WA' the posteriori human capacity, which is connected via the ‘I-WI' life force dimension, which is KI. In looking at Dan's statement above, you see that the point being made is that one part of the body is connected to "A" and the other ‘WA' - or the spiritual and physical with the connection enabled by Ki - or the in-yo of the human existence.

Greg

Hi Greg
It is not my statement.

Ueshiba:
「一霊四魂三元八力や呼吸、合気の理解なくして合気道を稽古しても合気道の本当の力は出てこないだろう。」"I think that if you cannot understand Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki, breath (kokyu) and Aiki, then even if you practice Aikido the true power of Aikido will not come forth."
Chris states that Ueshiba described the "Hachiriki" as physical forcesActive force, quiet force, Pulling force, loosening force, splitting force, combining force, melting force, congealing force

Taiji has: Peng, Lu, Ji, An, Cai, Lie, Zhou and Kao.

It was typical for Asian models to align the physical with the cosmos. It was the way it was done. Not knowing how they merge and diverge and what they meant is...why most "teachers".....teach what we now see.. as the way of aiki.

And that said, from my understanding there is quite a divergence on the understanding of the Kotodama and translations even within Japan in the native tongue, much more so on foreign translations. Peter has written about the "party line" and other versions depending on who you study with in his excellent Transmission and Inheritance blogs. I am left unmoved, as to its relevance in aiki. Again, going back to the physical manifestations, all I see is the deplorable state of affairs of those claiming an understanding, that has had any meaningful, physical results. As we have seen recently, it is usually nothing more than lip service as people float about and you can basically destroy them with little effort. As Kisshomaru noted-

Quote:

O sensei's legendary feats were intended not only to demonstrate or show off what he could do, but to create and opportunity for the introduction of a true martial art.

O sensei would have been appalled by the actions of what Meik Skoss termed "aiki-bunnies" he knew right well what power was and how to wield it to validate the art.

"Manifest yang in your right hand, balance it with the yin of your left, and guide your partner."

The second one I'm not sure about - I was working from the originals...

Best,

Chris

Thanks,

You also mentioned the "put power into your fingertips". I recall a similar reference in Shioda's Aikido Shugyo and if I'm remembering correctly it was stated the same way, or maybe it was the hands. Not sure why that popped into my head, it was just interesting from a translation standpoint.

Hello Jason
You would have to go find them.
Some are mentioned in the Kamae thread here.
Interestingly there are whole paragraphs left out (not translated at all) in the middle of an explanation. One of which is Ueshiba describing an almost book match description of spiraling to taiji.
Others where John Stevens skipped Ueshiba's repeated use of six directions as 60deg in hanmi.
The reasons are not nefarious...it is ignorance of an almost mundane and pedestrian terminology by and large unknown to these men who went on to became our teachers. It's sad really.
Hence the reason I used one of my own seminars as an example; where almost twenty Aikido people (teachers and students) were standing in a room with eight ICMA (teachers and students) and the ICMA guys looked at the AIkido teachers and basically said How could you people NOT KNOW this stuff?
I honestly don't know who was more surprised when I began reading Ueshiba quotes out loud.
All the best
Dan
P.S. Hey I got your P.M.'s...it's all good dude. And yes I am re-thinking it. You couldn't fault me after hearing about the threats in public seminars. People can be very weird. What about this winter when it cools off?

You also mentioned the "put power into your fingertips". I recall a similar reference in Shioda's Aikido Shugyo and if I'm remembering correctly it was stated the same way, or maybe it was the hands. Not sure why that popped into my head, it was just interesting from a translation standpoint.

I'd have to check Aikido Shugyo, but it makes sense. You also see similar admonitions in Chinese internal martial arts.

PIcky, picky, picky - OK, let's just say it was a quote that formed part of your overall statement of point within that post - better?

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:

Ueshiba:
「一霊四魂三元八力や呼吸、合気の理解なくして合気道を稽古しても合気道の本当の力は出てこないだろう。」"I think that if you cannot understand Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki, breath (kokyu) and Aiki, then even if you practice Aikido the true power of Aikido will not come forth."
Chris states that Ueshiba described the "Hachiriki" as physical forcesActive force, quiet force, Pulling force, loosening force, splitting force, combining force, melting force, congealing force

Taiji has: Peng, Lu, Ji, An, Cai, Lie, Zhou and Kao.

It was typical for Asian models to align the physical with the cosmos. It was the way it was done. Not knowing how they merge and diverge and what they meant is...why most "teachers".....teach what we now see.. as the way of aiki.

And that said, from my understanding there is quite a divergence on the understanding of the Kotodama and translations even within Japan in the native tongue, much more so on foreign translations. Peter has written about the "party line" and other versions depending on who you study with in his excellent Transmission and Inheritance blogs. I am left unmoved, as to its relevance in aiki. Again, going back to the physical manifestations, all I see is the deplorable state of affairs of those claiming an understanding, that has had any meaningful, physical results. As we have seen recently, it is usually nothing more than lip service as people float about and you can basically destroy them with little effort. As Kisshomaru noted-
O sensei would have been appalled by the actions of what Meik Skoss termed "aiki-bunnies" he knew right well what power was and how to wield it to validate the art.

Dan

Interesting note is that Nakazono's son stated that even his father, who devoted most of his life to the study the Kototama, at the end felt that the Kototama did not have the answers for the meaning of life as he first thought let alone any relevance to the secrets of aikido, other than the fact that Ueshiba used it often as a reference to his beliefs - and in that context, you would of had to been inside Ueshiba's head to truly understand because as many of his students have said, they did not have a clue as to what he was spouting off about once he got into that Omoto/Kototama mode

PIcky, picky, picky - OK, let's just say it was a quote that formed part of your overall statement of point within that post - better?

Interesting note is that Nakazono's son stated that even his father, who devoted most of his life to the study the Kototama, at the end felt that the Kototama did not have the answers for the meaning of life as he first thought let alone any relevance to the secrets of aikido, other than the fact that Ueshiba used it often as a reference to his beliefs - and in that context, you would of had to been inside Ueshiba's head to truly understand because as many of his students have said, they did not have a clue as to what he was spouting off about once he got into that Omoto/Kototama mode

Greg

Our instructor was given a book on Kotodama by Ueshiba. I've thought it would be cool, if I could read Japanese, to see if there was anything of relevance in it. If for nothing else than to try and piece together what was going on in his head.

Greg. In the book by Nakazono I see no reference to that statement, however I may be wrong there. He mentions yin yang only once in the whole book.

Of course there is no direct reference to the quote/statement, If you are familiar with what the author is saying in the entire book, it would be obvious that the excerpt I paraphrased in my post from that book supports the point being made in the Ueshiba quote of Dan's statement.

Quote:

Graham Christian wrote:

He mentions the eight powers quite definitively which I do not see in the aikidofaq dobun. In fact he calls them the eight motive rhythms.

He does not use the word 'power' at all when talking about the eight motive/father rhythms. which as I stated before are the sounds of: T,K,M,H,L,N,Y,S - so, tell me what is ther power of 'T' or maybe the power of 'N' and how does that relate to Aikido?

Those eight rhythms are nothing unless they are combined with one of the mother sounds, which when done will give you the 50 sounds of the Kototama.

Also, the Dobun DOES mention power, look at the end after clicking on that link I placed in my post - but that does not mean it is part of the kotomama - just someone's opinion that is not supported by other work on the kotomama, like Nagazono's work.

Quote:

Graham Christian wrote:

The eight motive rhythms are individually called powers and they number eight in total.

And where are they referenced as power in Inochi - the only place I see the word power being used is when he talks about 'WI' as the power of life.

Quote:

Graham Christian wrote:

Every one of them relates to Aikido as well as the universe itself.

OK, please provide detail and explain why with the proper references.

Quote:

Graham Christian wrote:

In my view these things were the the base of Ueshibas Aikido and thus his interpretation is the manifestation of Aikido itself.

His interpretation? or yours, or someone else's interpretation of his interpretation?

Quote:

Graham Christian wrote:

Transcending the realm of logic and as used in this society as explained in that book.

Our instructor was given a book on Kotodama by Ueshiba. I've thought it would be cool, if I could read Japanese, to see if there was anything of relevance in it. If for nothing else than to try and piece together what was going on in his head.

I went into the study of Kototama for the same thing - never did find the answers - and as I mentioned before, neither did Nakazono and he spent a lifetime a it

Of course there is no direct reference to the quote/statement, If you are familiar with what the author is saying in the entire book, it would be obvious that the excerpt I paraphrased in my post from that book supports the point being made in the Ueshiba quote of Dan's statement.

He does not use the word 'power' at all when talking about the eight motive/father rhythms. which as I stated before are the sounds of: T,K,M,H,L,N,Y,S - so, tell me what is ther power of 'T' or maybe the power of 'N' and how does that relate to Aikido?

Those eight rhythms are nothing unless they are combined with one of the mother sounds, which when done will give you the 50 sounds of the Kototama.

Also, the Dobun DOES mention power, look at the end after clicking on that link I placed in my post - but that does not mean it is part of the kotomama - just someone's opinion that is not supported by other work on the kotomama, like Nagazono's work.

And where are they referenced as power in Inochi - the only place I see the word power being used is when he talks about 'WI' as the power of life.

OK, please provide detail and explain why with the proper references.

His interpretation? or yours, or someone else's interpretation of his interpretation?

Just what exactly does that mean

Greg

Ah Greg. You are a pain. Your aim seems only to make wrong but for one last time I'll answer your requests.

O.K. There is mention of such and you can use it to support said statement. Good.

You say he doesn't use the word power in the eight motive rhythms? Then read it again as you are reading the wrong part of the book.

To cut it short for you from ti-ta-te-to-tu was called circling power by his teacher as one example. The whole set can be found on page 110 of inochi.

The eight powers as a result of these rhythms are written as follows: Expanding Power;
Inner scratching power;
Circling Power;
Opening Power;
Spiralling Power;
Gathering Power-absorption.
Flying Power:
Piercing Power.

Your final question which you tend to feel freaky? Well maybe to you it is freaky.

Well I look at the world and the way it's going or being and find that freaky so what's new.

In the book such a civilization as we have now is predicted, explained and named as a type of civilization based on certain rhtyms based on where we as humans are mostly operating from in our own awareness which my friend is quite a nutty place.

He describes it as a civilization following the amatu kanagi principle. A civilization based on u-a-o and lacking in e and i. Thus he says such things as[/quote] 'Human activity symbolized in religion as the star god- god of violence-the devil. The god susano of the japanese shinto'

Quote:

and'

'Every improvement made is towards that end-making things worse, dirtier-with an upside down judgement. Morality is just there, worse than an animals morality-and that is progress'[quote]

Thus he explains how greed and the want of power etc. runs this type of civilization etc. From page 40 to page 45.

Thus a civilization based with the other two (e-i) in operation would be the potential scene described by many including O'Sensei.

But first we must transcend the current way of thinking which we think is so right and normal. Or carry on 'improving' things towards destruction. Carry on thinking martial is all to do with war and subjugation and madness oblivious to wisdom.

Anyway. Enough said on that. Enjoy, and as O'Sensei said to Hikitsuchi [quote] 'From now on Budo must become love and give joy and happiness. It must be the Budo of love' [quote]

So just to geek out a little bit, Chris, am I correct in understanding that 力を入れる (chikara wo ireru) can also mean to tense up?

If so, isn't that an interesting example that without information from another source, be it a teacher, classical knowledge, experience, etc, it might be difficult to understand exactly what is meant, underscoring Dan's point that book learning and practical knowledge are both required. And then there is the work...

So just to geek out a little bit, Chris, am I correct in understanding that åŠ›ã‚'å…¥ã‚Œã‚‹ (chikara wo ireru) can also mean to tense up?

If so, isn't that an interesting example that without information from another source, be it a teacher, classical knowledge, experience, etc, it might be difficult to understand exactly what is meant, underscoring Dan's point that book learning and practical knowledge are both required. And then there is the work...

That's true, and a good example of the problem with most of the original translations - they were more or less translated "blind". Even most Japanese native speakers I talked to about the original texts had no idea what they meant.

Ah Greg. You are a pain. Your aim seems only to make wrong but for one last time I'll answer your requests.

Me a pain? - your whacky ramblings hurt my head And my motive is not to make wrong, but to clarify.

Quote:

Graham Christian wrote:

You say he doesn't use the word power in the eight motive rhythms? Then read it again as you are reading the wrong part of the book.

To cut it short for you from ti-ta-te-to-tu was called circling power by his teacher as one example. The whole set can be found on page 110 of inochi.

The eight powers as a result of these rhythms are written as follows: Expanding Power;
Inner scratching power;
Circling Power;
Opening Power;
Spiralling Power;
Gathering Power-absorption.
Flying Power:
Piercing Power.

No, Nakazono does not - but, Yamakoshi uses the word 'power' in his interpretation (page 110) as it relates to the manifestation of the eight motive rhythms along with the five mother sounds within the I-WI dimension, as I stated before, the word power is not used outside the discussion of that dimension and no where in the book is the term 'Eight Powers' used to describe anything. I can see where some may interpret the above to be a list of eight powers, but it does not represent the label of Eight Powers of the Kototama - and actually, when you look at if, he lists 40 sounds as part of that list and not just eight.

Further, as you look at pages 103, 106, 108, and 109 where Nakazono lists all the sounds of the kototama with what they represent in the three different orders, the only place the word 'power' is used is on page 108 for the sound 'WI' as 'life power'

Quote:

Graham Christian wrote:

Your final question which you tend to feel freaky? Well maybe to you it is freaky.

Well I look at the world and the way it's going or being and find that freaky so what's new.

In the book such a civilization as we have now is predicted, explained and named as a type of civilization based on certain rhtyms based on where we as humans are mostly operating from in our own awareness which my friend is quite a nutty place.

He describes it as a civilization following the amatu kanagi principle. A civilization based on u-a-o and lacking in e and i. Thus he says such things as 'Human activity symbolized in religion as the star god- god of violence-the devil. The god susano of the japanese shinto' 'Every improvement made is towards that end-making things worse, dirtier-with an upside down judgement. Morality is just there, worse than an animals morality-and that is progress'

Thus he explains how greed and the want of power etc. runs this type of civilization etc. From page 40 to page 45.

Thus a civilization based with the other two (e-i) in operation would be the potential scene described by many including O'Sensei.

But first we must transcend the current way of thinking which we think is so right and normal. Or carry on 'improving' things towards destruction. Carry on thinking martial is all to do with war and subjugation and madness oblivious to wisdom.

Anyway. Enough said on that. Enjoy, and as O'Sensei said to Hikitsuchi 'From now on Budo must become love and give joy and happiness. It must be the Budo of love'

Unless either of you can make a credible argument and witness for kotodama producing real power- can you move your off topic discussion elsewhere please.
Greg it appears you agree it doesn't...so why are we discussing it still?
Thanks
Dan

Unless either of you can make a credible argument and witness for kotodama producing real power- can you move your off topic discussion elsewhere please.
Greg it appears you agree it doesn't...so why are we discussing it still?
Thanks
Dan

Unless either of you can make a credible argument and witness for kotodama producing real power- can you move your off topic discussion elsewhere please.
Greg it appears you agree it doesn't...so why are we discussing it still?
Thanks
Dan

Sorry, the aspect of 'Eight Powers' of the Kototama was injected into the thread as meaning something to the power being discussed here - I challenged that opinion based on my understanding of the Kototama and subsequently have been defending my position accordingly - no more and no less than what you have done in the past defending your positions.