Believe it or not, the people on this website have helped me a great deal in deciding just what do I believe and why. And, I hope, that maybe the people on this website have also come to realize not all theists are out to save your souls or look down on you.

For what its worth I'm glad you find this community a positive thing in your life; and certainly I would agree that you've provided an excellent example to many of the more combative members of that community.

Some may call that a cop-out but, to me anyway, the alternative is to mold people to my way of thinking / believing.

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Why stay so shackled; especially to a book which contains so much hate?

I feel the same freedom with the New Testament and Hebrew Bible. For me, the Bible is a collection of writings written by many people over the centuries all trying to explain what it is like to experience God. As such, I don't feel obligated to accept all that is written in the Bible as relevant for today. If that means I am a "cafeteria" Christian, so be it.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

So you don't believe in witnessing and saving souls? I thought the bible commands it. I really don't understand why you use a bible at all. Most of your ideas seem spiritual not religious.

What do you think Jesus tried to teach us while he was still alive? I think he taught us to deny religion and love one another. Remember the sermon on the mount? Religion crucified your Savior. I think Christianity disgraces Jesus especially when they're taking innocent lives. Jesus never said go start a religion in my name, I thought he said spread the Good News. Well I hate to tell you this but telling people they're going to hell is not good news.

If this hadn't happened there would be no pastor to tell a grieving mother her baby is not in heaven. She would know from her own spirit that her baby was with God, IMO.

It wouldn't be soooooooooo bad if everyone was like you OCG, but they are not and that's because of the bible, IMO. I mean the bible is not even mentioned in the ten commandments nor is going to church. In the story of Jesus these laws were called the Laws of Moses, not God.

You're Savior, Jesus, said be humble. There is nothing humble about dressing up in your Sunday bests or standing in front of a crowd preaching.

So please help me understand how you're helping Jesus by supporting the church, a disgrace to Jesus IMO. A temple to me should just be a place to pray and thank God for your blessings.

Do you not think that the young children in churches deserve the right to find their own path to God or to even be an atheist? Why program them so young?

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when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change

I was interested in your interpretation of Mark 16:15-18 Christ's commission to the Eleven.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature.16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.17 And these signs shall follow those who believe: In my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues;18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Thanks,

JB

Most Bibles will have a note at the end of verse 8 which reads something to the effect that the following verses (9-20) are not found in the earliest manuscripts of Mark.

Either Mark ended at 16:8 or there is an alternate ending which was lost almost immediately. As a result, I don't worry about these verses as they seem to have been added after the fact. Probably by a well-meaning person but probably after the fact.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

That is not an interpretation OCG. You plainly can not know for sure, you're guessing. The atheist here Love your vague responses, it makes things easy for them. You won't lose my respect for it though but I did give you your first smite. Is there any part of the bible you do agree with?

[18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.[19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

When you say that Jesus was against churches, do you mean in your humble interpretation?

That is not an interpretation OCG. You plainly can not know for sure, you're guessing. The atheist here Love your vague responses, it makes things easy for them. You won't lose my respect for it though but I did give you your first smite. Is there any part of the bible you do agree with?

With all due respect, junebug, the fact that people who actually study the Bible have come to that conclusion is pretty telling. As is the fact that you gave him a smite - as you say, the very first smite he's ever gotten - essentially for being honest. What kind of reasoning is that?

You know, theists have been declaring each other wrong for thousands of years, and it hasn't gotten us anywhere. I really kind of wish there were more people like OldChurchGuy out there, willing to acknowledge the fact that their understanding is limited and that they don't have the answers, or even most of them. Instead, we have people, lots and lots and lots and lots of people, who blithely assume that they understand exactly what those passages mean, that they're somehow qualified to tell other people just what 'God' really meant by something he wrote, when in fact they're just as blind as the people they're supposedly leading.

If more theists were willing to admit that their understanding was...lacking, we'll say, and that the Bible didn't actually contain all or even a significant fraction of the 'answers', then the world would probably be a much kinder, more loving place. You would certainly have a lot less people assuming that their religious faith somehow gave them a direct line to the Creator of the Universe (thus affirming, in their own minds at least, that they "have the answers"), or other such nonsense.

I was sorely tempted to smite you for this post, but I decided not to. And that's because while it's tempting to smack someone when they say something that I disagree with, all I'd really be doing is justifying my own arrogance. Kind of the way you acted in your response to OldChurchGuy. You would have taken one look at it and either blew it off or smited me right back for it.

Junebug,One of the problems that members have with you is that your thought patterns are irrational. Most of us here understand how other members work and can see their reasoning or what passes for reasoning. With you, it seems to be impossible. OCG states, quite rightly, that certain verses do not appear in early manuscripts. He therefore, reasonably, decides that they are probably added at a later date and are thus unreliable.

And what do you do? You give a reply, which does not relate to what he has said. You smite him for a rational opinion.

Why?

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Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

[18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.[19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

When you say that Jesus was against churches, do you mean in your humble interpretation?

When was that added? Is it original or what? What does it matter the bible is fiction. That's my point. In the scriptures I posted here is a supposed clear cut way to determine false prophecy and it is conveniently discarded to suit a belief. I think it was all made up. Isn't this a clear example of cherry picking? Belief w/o that old book is much easier,IMO.

Jesus said to not dress up and make long speeches so which one is Jesus which one is an add on. Or does Jesus contradict himself? Maybe by church Jesus meant somewhere to pray and give thanks. Who knows? I guess the bible is a lot like the Christian you can't never tell what's right and what is wrong. It confuses the mind. It sets you up for disappointment.

Peace and Joy,

JB

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when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change

Junebug,One of the problems that members have with you is that your thought patterns are irrational. Most of us here understand how other members work and can see their reasoning or what passes for reasoning. With you, it seems to be impossible. OCG states, quite rightly, that certain verses do not appear in early manuscripts. He therefore, reasonably, decides that they are probably added at a later date and are thus unreliable.

And what do you do? You give a reply, which does not relate to what he has said. You smite him for a rational opinion.

Why?

So you think it is rational to cherry pick the bible GB? Do you think there is reliable information in the bible anywhere?

My thought patterns are not irrational. I was very disappointed in that response. I went to a lot of trouble finding that scripture and then copying it.The other scripture I posted concerning the second coming was also deemed incorrect by the bible guru. Not all Christians are aware of this add on stuff. In fact there are several churches right here in these hills that hold snakes every Sunday. They also believe it is a serious sin to change The Word of God aka the bible. Guess what though, when bit they are poisoned and need medical treatment. It's news here anytime that happens. Other Christians say it's testing God.

Do you think brainwashing small children is OK? I am dead set against it.

I am mysterious, I like it. You can't figure me out because you've been too busy trying to change me. It's actually quite simple, religion disgusts me although I do empathize with the members, they are insecure about God and seek reassurance in the comfort of others. I just simply believe that intelligence was needed so that we could be. That there are powers in the universe beyond our control that we should respect. That we were not meant to have a book/guide; that we can be connected naturally and all we need are our spectacular brains/conscience to understand our purpose. I can close my eyes and imagine a world that never knew a bible and I see a happier less confused/separated society. I know the Native Americans wish they had never seen Christians. Their spiritual beliefs are quite beautiful no bible required! I feel quite strongly about these things. I want to leave this world better than I found it. I think the world is better w/o religion.

I do not believe God is vain requiring any kind of recognition or worship.

To me that makes the whole bible unreliable. You shouldn't have to go to college or church to understand God's will, jeese. It's taking something that is natural to some and making it complicated almost incomprehensible. IMO, interfering with the personal journey to find what God means to you.

I would like to know if I would still believe if I hadn't been brainwashed to do so by my family? I can never be sure. I look at my 7-8 years as an atheist as a purging of my brainwashed mind but I can never be certain that my belief now is not leftovers from a brainwashed childhood. Anyhow my beliefs are not hurting anyone and I have no regrets. I'm of the better safe than sorry mindset.

In one of Paul's letters to the Ephesians I think he says not to be religious. I don't see how you have an organised religion/church and not be religious. Maybe Paul was bipolar. Maybe Paul was an opportunist that took advantage of Christ's blood to make a name for himself.

Maybe OCG should write a new bible so that everybody knows what is real and what is not; maybe narrow the denominations down to less than 10.

I sure hope this helps you and others get me GB. I'm really a simple human. You despise religion for what it has done to the world. I despise religion because of what it has done to the world and God's reputation. That's what drives me.

Peace and Joy,

JB

« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 12:58:37 PM by junebug72 »

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when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change

really, June, there's quite a lot more the the bible than juts reading it. After all, you read it in English whilst it was written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. Trying to arrive at a text to translate isn't that much easier.

For the Old Testament, we have a couple of near complete Hebrew manuscripts to compare with the Hebrew texts preserved by the Jewish community to this day. The Hebrew ext has been well preserved and we can be fairly sure of the Hebrew text. However, not all the words are that well know with some appearing very infrequently in the text so we can still be stuck to translate them. That's how the KJV came up with 'unicorn' whereas other translations use some like 'wild ox' The complications come when you realise that there is another copy of the OT in existence from 200BCE. It is called the Septuagint (LXX) and is a translation into Greek of the Hebrew texts yet it has complications because it is quite a bit longer that Hebrew texts you are familiar with. The difference is, roughly, that which Protestant Bibles call the Apocrypha. (The Dead Sea Scrolls have copies in Hebrew of both versions.)

For the New Testament there are lots and lots of fairly complete not so complete and fairly incomplete manuscripts as well as fragments.The text of putting together the text as we think it was when it was written is a monumental one. There was a Greek text that was 'edited' by [wiki]Erasmus[/wiki] which was the basis of the KJV - I say edited because Erasmus, under pressure from the printers did little with the latter parts of the text. Since then we have been refining the text and as new discoveries turn up, trying to get the text into better form, The United Bible Society publishes what is, for translators, a fairly definitive text. However even that has lots of footnotes as to which word, when manuscripts differ was used and the other possibilities.

I hope you can see, June that even getting to what we hope is near to the original text is quite a job that it is no means certain is right but is the best we have so far managed. Editors working with the text, however, notice things about the text that causes them to comment. For example, the last few verses of Mark's gospel are rather different from the Greek of the main part of the gospel. There's no definite proof, but it is widely thought that change in the Greek comes about because someone added the verse well after the gospel was written. The same applies to some of Paul's letters which are considered non-genuine Paul as well as various other bits in the text. It is a little sad that the reader in English cannot see the differences though any good modern translation will have a footnote about significant passages indicating that they make no be original.

So you see, June, the whole question of the text of the bible, and hence which verses are quoted and said to be non-original, is quite a topic and not the simple thing it looks on the surface. So, next time you open the bible to look up something, take a look at the footnotes and see what the editor though about the passage you were reading.

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No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

I was interested in your interpretation of Mark 16:15-18 Christ's commission to the Eleven.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature.16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.17 And these signs shall follow those who believe: In my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues;18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Thanks,

JB

Most Bibles will have a note at the end of verse 8 which reads something to the effect that the following verses (9-20) are not found in the earliest manuscripts of Mark.

Either Mark ended at 16:8 or there is an alternate ending which was lost almost immediately. As a result, I don't worry about these verses as they seem to have been added after the fact. Probably by a well-meaning person but probably after the fact.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

That is not an interpretation OCG. You plainly can not know for sure, you're guessing. The atheist here Love your vague responses, it makes things easy for them. You won't lose my respect for it though but I did give you your first smite. Is there any part of the bible you do agree with?

First, I think all interpretations are guesses. Educated guesses but guesses none the less.

Second, since I don't believe these verses are part of the original Mark document, I didn't see a reason to interpret them. But, if you insist, I will give an opinion.

These seem to be statements of great faith. I'm not sure I agree with baptism being part of salvation. Granted, Jesus was baptized, but what of the thief on the cross? I had understood speaking in tongues was a gift (according to Paul) which means not everyone has the gift. Yet this verse seems to be creating a litmus test that one who truly believes will cast out demons, speak in tongues, drink poison with no ill effects, handle serpents with impunity and heal the sick. There is nothing in the wording to indicate these are "or" statements. Rather a true believer is expected to do ALL of them.

I admit I have not spoken in tongues, have not cast out demons, have not drunk any poison, have not handled serpents but MAY have healed the sick if we define "sick" as being emotionally ill. Physical illness, no. Therefore, I am not a true believer.

So you don't believe in witnessing and saving souls? I thought the bible commands it. I really don't understand why you use a bible at all. Most of your ideas seem spiritual not religious.

I think there are many ways to witness and save a soul. I am not one to stand on a street corner and proclaim a Gospel message. Rather, I am a strong believer in allowing my actions and words to do the witnessing.

Quote

What do you think Jesus tried to teach us while he was still alive? I think he taught us to deny religion and love one another. Remember the sermon on the mount? Religion crucified your Savior. I think Christianity disgraces Jesus especially when they're taking innocent lives. Jesus never said go start a religion in my name, I thought he said spread the Good News. Well I hate to tell you this but telling people they're going to hell is not good news.

As you mentioned, I think the main thrust of Jesus' message was to love God and to love your neighbor as you love yourself. And I agree that telling people they are going to Hell is not good news.

Quote

If this hadn't happened there would be no pastor to tell a grieving mother her baby is not in heaven. She would know from her own spirit that her baby was with God, IMO.

It wouldn't be soooooooooo bad if everyone was like you OCG, but they are not and that's because of the bible, IMO. I mean the bible is not even mentioned in the ten commandments nor is going to church. In the story of Jesus these laws were called the Laws of Moses, not God.

You're Savior, Jesus, said be humble. There is nothing humble about dressing up in your Sunday bests or standing in front of a crowd preaching.

So please help me understand how you're helping Jesus by supporting the church, a disgrace to Jesus IMO. A temple to me should just be a place to pray and thank God for your blessings.

Do you not think that the young children in churches deserve the right to find their own path to God or to even be an atheist? Why program them so young?

I tend to wear slacks and a shirt (no tie) when attending church. Many men come wearing blue jeans and a shirt. One man comes wearing sandals when the weather is warm enough. The women dress from very nice dresses to slacks and a top and some in blue jeans also.

I think I am helping spread the good news by supporting the community activities of our church. We tend a nice size garden each year in honor of a departed member who succumbed to brain cancer. All the food is donated to a local food bank. The youth go on mission trips in the summer helping rebuild areas either with Habitat for Humanity or disaster areas such as Hurricane Katrina and Hurricane Sandy. Many in the church are also involved with the local Habitat for Humanity.

Yes, I believe the youth have the right to determine their own path to God even to becoming atheist. If allowing them to think for themselves is programming them young, so be it. The alternative, to me, is to create a little band on non-thinking believers who worship a set of rules rather than the God behind the rules.

I hope this helps and your questions are answered.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

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Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

I was sorely tempted to smite you for this post, but I decided not to. And that's because while it's tempting to smack someone when they say something that I disagree with, all I'd really be doing is justifying my own arrogance. Kind of the way you acted in your response to OldChurchGuy. You would have taken one look at it and either blew it off or smited me right back for it.

I was interested in your interpretation of Mark 16:15-18 Christ's commission to the Eleven.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature.16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.17 And these signs shall follow those who believe: In my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues;18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Thanks,

JB

Most Bibles will have a note at the end of verse 8 which reads something to the effect that the following verses (9-20) are not found in the earliest manuscripts of Mark.

Either Mark ended at 16:8 or there is an alternate ending which was lost almost immediately. As a result, I don't worry about these verses as they seem to have been added after the fact. Probably by a well-meaning person but probably after the fact.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

That is not an interpretation OCG. You plainly can not know for sure, you're guessing. The atheist here Love your vague responses, it makes things easy for them. You won't lose my respect for it though but I did give you your first smite. Is there any part of the bible you do agree with?

First, I think all interpretations are guesses. Educated guesses but guesses none the less.

Second, since I don't believe these verses are part of the original Mark document, I didn't see a reason to interpret them. But, if you insist, I will give an opinion.

These seem to be statements of great faith. I'm not sure I agree with baptism being part of salvation. Granted, Jesus was baptized, but what of the thief on the cross? I had understood speaking in tongues was a gift (according to Paul) which means not everyone has the gift. Yet this verse seems to be creating a litmus test that one who truly believes will cast out demons, speak in tongues, drink poison with no ill effects, handle serpents with impunity and heal the sick. There is nothing in the wording to indicate these are "or" statements. Rather a true believer is expected to do ALL of them.

I admit I have not spoken in tongues, have not cast out demons, have not drunk any poison, have not handled serpents but MAY have healed the sick if we define "sick" as being emotionally ill. Physical illness, no. Therefore, I am not a true believer.

How many of these actions in the above verses have you done?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

OCG,

There now that's an answer.

When I read this scripture, 10 years ago, I was not aware of it's add on status. I took it to mean no one is capable of doing these things so no one is worthy to lead another on their spiritual quest. I believe even the devoted believer has doubts. I know I do but I still believe and I think it's OK to doubt. Usually my doubt leads to enlightenment.

I think you are a great guy a true believer. The smite wasn't because I don't like you,I do, I don't like the bible. It was to get you to open up some more. Really get to the meat of the question not just brush it off. They make fun of cherry picking around here. They see it as a sign of weakness. To me God is more credible w/o the biblical interpretation.

My point was w/o all the bad interpretations/religion the mother and God would have worked it out alone bringing the mother closer to God and having no anger at a pastor w/o heart. I have never needed a priest or a person to comfort my soul, all I do is turn to God and my spirit is full of comfort. Nope I can't prove that either. It is between me and God, IMO.

My main objective here at this atheist forum is to show logic and sound reasoning to a belief in God. The bible and the cherry picking is not sound reasoning. Atheist think we are irrational and delusional. You can not "kill these folks with kindness" I've tried, oh I've tried. They want stone cold facts. Tangible evidence. Neither one of us can provide this evidence but we can provide good reasoning. I find no good reason in that old bible.

I sing at nursing homes, I saved a woman from jumping off a bridge, I buy cheeseburgers and give them to the local homeless, I do not support a religion with blood/hate on it's hands, no matter how hard you and your church try to be good that blood/hate is still there and your religion/bible is responsible for it. I embrace every opportunity to show kindness and charity. Atheist do these things too.

Yelp I agree that the most important thing we as humans can do is to love one another, no religion/bible needed. I think that the bible/religion is what's tearing us apart. I think Moses is the most notorious serial killer of all times. He is very close to spoiling the Winter Olympics.

I've been to a Church of God where they spoke in tongues, it was scary. Shala ma honda. The pastor is my distant cousin, older than my dad. We had dinner at his house after the service and he told me they were faking it. That when you're truly speaking in tongues there will be an interpreter.

Peace and Joy,

JB

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when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change

I was sorely tempted to smite you for this post, but I decided not to. And that's because while it's tempting to smack someone when they say something that I disagree with, all I'd really be doing is justifying my own arrogance. Kind of the way you acted in your response to OldChurchGuy. You would have taken one look at it and either blew it off or smited me right back for it.

I smited Junebug.

I gave into temptation.

I think you should be concerned about how much pleasure you took in smiting me. Please tell me again how it is atheist can be so kind w/o a belief in God? You certainly falsify that claim.

Like it or not I woke OCG up. I got the answer I was looking for. I've got so many it's like nothing.

It obviously doesn't work or I would be dead by now with all my smites. hahaha

Jaime was right I shrugged it off and smited you right back. I could play all day.

Twisted Sister, Come out and play...We're not gonna take it anymore!!!........... bang head now, not too hard you might get whoop-lash.

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when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change

When was that added? Is it original or what? What does it matter the bible is fiction. That's my point. In the scriptures I posted here is a supposed clear cut way to determine false prophecy and it is conveniently discarded to suit a belief. I think it was all made up. Isn't this a clear example of cherry picking? Belief w/o that old book is much easier,IMO.

Jesus said to not dress up and make long speeches so which one is Jesus which one is an add on. Or does Jesus contradict himself? Maybe by church Jesus meant somewhere to pray and give thanks. Who knows? I guess the bible is a lot like the Christian you can't never tell what's right and what is wrong. It confuses the mind. It sets you up for disappointment.

You seem to be awfully certain about what Jesus said, and what his intentions were, considering the Bible is all made up.

really, June, there's quite a lot more the the bible than juts reading it. After all, you read it in English whilst it was written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. Trying to arrive at a text to translate isn't that much easier.

So you see, June, the whole question of the text of the bible, and hence which verses are quoted and said to be non-original, is quite a topic and not the simple thing it looks on the surface. So, next time you open the bible to look up something, take a look at the footnotes and see what the editor though about the passage you were reading.

Thanks wheels but I have no desires to study the bible. I've made my decision that it is not inspired by God and I stand by that conclusion. It should be holey bible not holy. You know with an "E". That would ruin my relationship with God, IMO. I mean really I am a living breathing homosexual, and the bible clearly despises my kind. In this simple mind that means the bible is my enemy. I know the bible is not a person it is an idea but it is written by humans, it is believed by other humans. A collection of mostly cruel/irrational beliefs.

My point remains that the bible is a roadblock to God not a path to God. It has created many monsters throughout history, that proves it's unholiness. I will not be subjecting my spirit to it any time soon, you can trust that.

I can sum the bible and Christianity up real quick. It goes like this...

In the beginning there was blood and death, a man named Jesus tried to teach us to love one another and then people started spilling blood in his name so there is still blood...and death.

JB

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when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change

When was that added? Is it original or what? What does it matter the bible is fiction. That's my point. In the scriptures I posted here is a supposed clear cut way to determine false prophecy and it is conveniently discarded to suit a belief. I think it was all made up. Isn't this a clear example of cherry picking? Belief w/o that old book is much easier,IMO.

Jesus said to not dress up and make long speeches so which one is Jesus which one is an add on. Or does Jesus contradict himself? Maybe by church Jesus meant somewhere to pray and give thanks. Who knows? I guess the bible is a lot like the Christian you can't never tell what's right and what is wrong. It confuses the mind. It sets you up for disappointment.

You seem to be awfully certain about what Jesus said, and what his intentions were, considering the Bible is all made up.

That seems certain to you? Please define certain.

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when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change

There you go again. That is not cherry picking. It seems to me more like throwing away obviously rotten fruit. To cherry-pick is to choose only on the basis of your own prejudice. OCG did not do that. I am going to assume that if he came across another inserted verse, then he would reject that too.

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Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

That is not an interpretation OCG. You plainly can not know for sure, you're guessing. The atheist here Love your vague responses, it makes things easy for them. You won't lose my respect for it though but I did give you your first smite. Is there any part of the bible you do agree with?

With all due respect, junebug, the fact that people who actually study the Bible have come to that conclusion is pretty telling. As is the fact that you gave him a smite - as you say, the very first smite he's ever gotten - essentially for being honest. What kind of reasoning is that?

You know, theists have been declaring each other wrong for thousands of years, and it hasn't gotten us anywhere. I really kind of wish there were more people like OldChurchGuy out there, willing to acknowledge the fact that their understanding is limited and that they don't have the answers, or even most of them. Instead, we have people, lots and lots and lots and lots of people, who blithely assume that they understand exactly what those passages mean, that they're somehow qualified to tell other people just what 'God' really meant by something he wrote, when in fact they're just as blind as the people they're supposedly leading.

If more theists were willing to admit that their understanding was...lacking, we'll say, and that the Bible didn't actually contain all or even a significant fraction of the 'answers', then the world would probably be a much kinder, more loving place. You would certainly have a lot less people assuming that their religious faith somehow gave them a direct line to the Creator of the Universe (thus affirming, in their own minds at least, that they "have the answers"), or other such nonsense.

I was sorely tempted to smite you for this post, but I decided not to. And that's because while it's tempting to smack someone when they say something that I disagree with, all I'd really be doing is justifying my own arrogance. Kind of the way you acted in your response to OldChurchGuy. You would have taken one look at it and either blew it off or smited me right back for it.

Not just theists Jaime you can't leave out the atheist POV.

It amazes me how we agree on so many levels but yet you want to smite me for believing the same as you. I'm trying to prove that the existence of a religion in Jesus's name is in contradiction to what Jesus taught. Do you disagree with that idea?

So OCG gets laminated for only accepting part of the bible and I get none for not believing any of it. You make no sense. I did get a thumbs up way back when so I guess that's OK. I have had my laminated moments here as well. Shoot we all need to feel special sometimes.

If you want the turmoil to end show me right now that you can accept me the way I am. Quit trying to rage a war with me. I am not your enemy. I have tried very hard to be a friend to the atheist and trust me, y'all need some friends on the theist side. By "your" I mean atheist not you personally but yes you personally as well. I want nothing less than peace for the human race. So what do you say, will you be my friend? I am a loyal friend. I want turn my back on you when times are hard. I will defend your atheist POV no matter what though.

Don't you think peace could start by showing respect to those who believe differently? I have no respect for cruelty, I will be brave and stand against cruelty from believers as well as non believers. We can be a team without accepting each others POV about the existence of God.

We ALL have to accept a lack of knowledge to get along, don't we? I'm not the one here that is afraid to admit I don't know all the answers. It is y'all. By y'all I mean all atheist I've met here at this forum.

JB

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when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change

There you go again. That is not cherry picking. It seems to me more like throwing away obviously rotten fruit. To cherry-pick is to choose only on the basis of your own prejudice. OCG did not do that. I am going to assume that if he came across another inserted verse, then he would reject that too.

They are all inserted verses are they not? Did you suddenly start believing some of the bible is actually inspired by God GB?

Do you think it is more rational to believe in God because of the bible or because nature inspires it?

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when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change

really, June, there's quite a lot more the the bible than juts reading it. After all, you read it in English whilst it was written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. Trying to arrive at a text to translate isn't that much easier.

So you see, June, the whole question of the text of the bible, and hence which verses are quoted and said to be non-original, is quite a topic and not the simple thing it looks on the surface. So, next time you open the bible to look up something, take a look at the footnotes and see what the editor though about the passage you were reading.

Thanks wheels but I have no desires to study the bible. I've made my decision that it is not inspired by God and I stand by that conclusion. It should be holey bible not holy. You know with an "E". That would ruin my relationship with God, IMO. I mean really I am a living breathing homosexual, and the bible clearly despises my kind. In this simple mind that means the bible is my enemy. I know the bible is not a person it is an idea but it is written by humans, it is believed by other humans. A collection of mostly cruel/irrational beliefs.

My point remains that the bible is a roadblock to God not a path to God. It has created many monsters throughout history, that proves it's unholiness. I will not be subjecting my spirit to it any time soon, you can trust that.

I can sum the bible and Christianity up real quick. It goes like this...

In the beginning there was blood and death, a man named Jesus tried to teach us to love one another and then people started spilling blood in his name so there is still blood...and death.

JB

I just want to add that I still don't believe it should be that complicated. That's like a cruel joke God played on mankind. A point that has been made to me several times over here. I'm going to give you a book that will teach you to kill each other and then love one another at the same time. I think God is way more rational and brilliant than that. It is up to us to admit lack of knowledge.

My favorite one was "If God wants us to believe in him be believable".

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when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change

There you go again. That is not cherry picking. It seems to me more like throwing away obviously rotten fruit. To cherry-pick is to choose only on the basis of your own prejudice. OCG did not do that. I am going to assume that if he came across another inserted verse, then he would reject that too.

OOooo what a dodge. You missed some questions in that post. Don't make me start a thread called why can't atheist answer questions!

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when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change

Check it out! I'm on an atheist forum arguing the lack of merit for biblical belief in God and the atheist are defending it. I am beyond amazed. I am flabbergasted!

I guess it is some progress.

I would tell you why I think this is happening but I'd be in soooooooooooooo much trouble.

Just curious,If you think the bible is not fact based or inspired by god what is it that you would use to try and understand the will of your god? If you feel the whole bible is just made up why wouldn’t you believe that the whole religion is made up? I am not saying you are wrong it's your faith you can believe whatever you want. It just doesn’t make since to me that you dismiss the sole thing that the Christian god "inspired and left behind."

So you don't believe in witnessing and saving souls? I thought the bible commands it. I really don't understand why you use a bible at all. Most of your ideas seem spiritual not religious.

I think there are many ways to witness and save a soul. I am not one to stand on a street corner and proclaim a Gospel message. Rather, I am a strong believer in allowing my actions and words to do the witnessing.

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What do you think Jesus tried to teach us while he was still alive? I think he taught us to deny religion and love one another. Remember the sermon on the mount? Religion crucified your Savior. I think Christianity disgraces Jesus especially when they're taking innocent lives. Jesus never said go start a religion in my name, I thought he said spread the Good News. Well I hate to tell you this but telling people they're going to hell is not good news.

As you mentioned, I think the main thrust of Jesus' message was to love God and to love your neighbor as you love yourself. And I agree that telling people they are going to Hell is not good news.

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If this hadn't happened there would be no pastor to tell a grieving mother her baby is not in heaven. She would know from her own spirit that her baby was with God, IMO.

It wouldn't be soooooooooo bad if everyone was like you OCG, but they are not and that's because of the bible, IMO. I mean the bible is not even mentioned in the ten commandments nor is going to church. In the story of Jesus these laws were called the Laws of Moses, not God.

You're Savior, Jesus, said be humble. There is nothing humble about dressing up in your Sunday bests or standing in front of a crowd preaching.

So please help me understand how you're helping Jesus by supporting the church, a disgrace to Jesus IMO. A temple to me should just be a place to pray and thank God for your blessings.

Do you not think that the young children in churches deserve the right to find their own path to God or to even be an atheist? Why program them so young?

I tend to wear slacks and a shirt (no tie) when attending church. Many men come wearing blue jeans and a shirt. One man comes wearing sandals when the weather is warm enough. The women dress from very nice dresses to slacks and a top and some in blue jeans also.

I think I am helping spread the good news by supporting the community activities of our church. We tend a nice size garden each year in honor of a departed member who succumbed to brain cancer. All the food is donated to a local food bank. The youth go on mission trips in the summer helping rebuild areas either with Habitat for Humanity or disaster areas such as Hurricane Katrina and Hurricane Sandy. Many in the church are also involved with the local Habitat for Humanity.

Yes, I believe the youth have the right to determine their own path to God even to becoming atheist. If allowing them to think for themselves is programming them young, so be it. The alternative, to me, is to create a little band on non-thinking believers who worship a set of rules rather than the God behind the rules.

I hope this helps and your questions are answered.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

That does not really address the lack of humility in preaching but kudos to you for being humble. I'm saying preaching is not humble. So if God is behind the rules should you not follow them? Should God not have made the rules easier to define? No need for answers here these are examples of my reasoning of how the bible makes God unbelievable.

No not allowing them to think for them selves is my definition of programming. How are they free to chose if they are taught Christianity as small children and the alternatives are not? It's all well and good in a loving/caring church such as your's but there is some serious brainwashing going on. My momma said if you lay with dogs you get fleas. The dogs of religion, IMO, has given the rest fleas. The whole bunch is spoiled. Thereby making God unbelievable. It's just a figure of speech, no harm meant.

If religion makes God unbelievable how is it a good thing?

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when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change

Check it out! I'm on an atheist forum arguing the lack of merit for biblical belief in God and the atheist are defending it. I am beyond amazed. I am flabbergasted!

I guess it is some progress.

I would tell you why I think this is happening but I'd be in soooooooooooooo much trouble.

Just curious,If you think the bible is not fact based or inspired by god what is it that you would use to try and understand the will of your god? If you feel the whole bible is just made up why wouldn’t you believe that the whole religion is made up? I am not saying you are wrong it's your faith you can believe whatever you want. It just doesn’t make since to me that you dismiss the sole thing that the Christian god "inspired and left behind."

Nature G, nature and consciousness.

I do believe the whole religion is made up.

There are many concepts of God left behind and then there's mine. I mean these days it's like I interpret that from this guys interpretation and I believe this based on that guys interpretation of that guy so on and so on and so on and so on and so on etc etc etc......

I base my belief on things we know not things we don't know. Except for where does God live; I can only say out there somewhere, it's an awful big universe, maybe infinite maybe not.

I believe; how you believe in God defines you not God. I also believe how you act as an atheist defines you not atheism.

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when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change

Do you believe science is made up? I ask because science explains quite a bit about nature and consciousness. If you feel science produces tested facts of nature and consciousness, and religion is made up why be religious/spiritual?

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There are many concepts of God left behind and then there's mine. I mean these days it's like I interpret that from this guys interpretation and I believe this based on that guys interpretation of that guy so on and so on and so on and so on and so on etc etc etc......

Ultimately I think that is how we all roll. In some ways. Believers and non believers alike.

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I base my belief on things we know not things we don't know. Except for where does God live; I can only say out there somewhere, it's an awful big universe, maybe infinite maybe not.

Lol I have no clue what you are saying here. You base your belief on things you know not things you don’t know. So you know where god lives, yet maybe not? Eh? It is a big universe though I agree with you on that one!

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I believe; how you believe in God defines you not God. I also believe how you act as an atheist defines you not atheism.

Fair enough. Although I think the second statement holds true for both camps. How you act as a Christian defines you not Christianity. And how you act as an atheist defines you not atheism.

I was sorely tempted to smite you for this post, but I decided not to. And that's because while it's tempting to smack someone when they say something that I disagree with, all I'd really be doing is justifying my own arrogance. Kind of the way you acted in your response to OldChurchGuy. You would have taken one look at it and either blew it off or smited me right back for it.

I smited Junebug.

I gave into temptation.

I think you should be concerned about how much pleasure you took in smiting me. Please tell me again how it is atheist can be so kind w/o a belief in God? You certainly falsify that claim.

Like it or not I woke OCG up. I got the answer I was looking for. I've got so many it's like nothing.

It obviously doesn't work or I would be dead by now with all my smites. hahaha

Jaime was right I shrugged it off and smited you right back. I could play all day.

Twisted Sister, Come out and play...We're not gonna take it anymore!!!........... bang head now, not too hard you might get whoop-lash.

I thought it was silly for you to smite someone for doing exactly what you asked them to do. You didnt even give that person a chance. I disagree with a lot of responses to the questions I ask but I try to explain what I mean and give the person a chance to understand me before I smite them which may end up just alienating them causing them to mistrust me.

After I read Jaimehlers reply, I realized he was probably right.

I had to be honest, I gave into temptation with a knee jerk reaction because I don't understand you.

Thank you for your response, it may help me in understanding you.

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"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks