Yomi expansion beta 3.2

Normal draw rule. Try the version: If you normal attack as your combat card and it's not interrupted (by a faster or same-speed attack), draw a card.

If both players are knocked down during the same combat, then ignore the knockdown effect next combat.

Try the handcap: At the end of the turn (after the powerup phase), discard down to 10 cards. (There's no limit to hand size during the other parts of the turn.)

BBB

Queen and King altered so that Queen is the go-to damage option while the King has other utility:
Junkshot damage up 10 -> 12
King damage 9+3 -> 6+4
King ability revised to give bonus damage if you change range, rather than keep it:
This throw works at range or close. When you throw the opponent with it, you may switch the current range. If you do, this throw does 3 extra damage.

Salvage Components reworded, no functional change:
During the powerup phase, you may reveal this card to return a face card from your discard pile to your hand, then discard this Salvage Components if you are not at range.

Robo Headbutt named on the card, changed to Can't Combo type, and reworded:
You may not play this card at range. If Robo Headbutt wins combat, it stuns the opponent, and you may play another full combo unless you were also stunned.

Also it has helptext: "On hit: you may play another combo."

Persephone

Combo ponts down 5 -> 4
Throw damage up 6 -> 7

Jack, Rapid Lashes combo points 2 -> 1, aso damage up 7+3 -> 7+4
Jack, Power Lash now knocks down (increases card draw, but might completely dominate ever using the other side of the jack)

King damage up 8 -> 9

Bare Your Soul ability revised:
After the draw phase, you may attach this to your opponent's characer card. While attached, he must play with the top card of his deck revealed. If he would draw a Hearts card, turn that card face down instead of drawing it and put this card in your discard pile.

Vendetta

Innate no longer has the crit part, to simplify. Now the hitback part works on Can't Combo moves also:
"Whenever your normal attack (as a combat card) hits or is blocked, you may return it to your hand instead of drawing a card.

Whenever you block an Ender or Can't Combo attack, you may hit back with a red normal attack (it becomes an ender), then draw a card."

Acrobatics reworded and slight functional change on discarding in the case of blocks:
After combat cards are revealed, you may discard this card to cancel combat. Discard both players' combat cards (neither player takes any damage), then immediately play another combat phase. During this extra combat, you cannot play another Acrobatics and your attacks and throws are 2 speed slower.

That's a confusing situation because Geiger would be able to throw and Vendetta would be able to hit back with a poke. Lowest life player probably does theirs first. Kind of doesn't make much sense though.

That's a confusing situation because Geiger would be able to throw and Vendetta would be able to hit back with a poke. Lowest life player probably does theirs first. Kind of doesn't make much sense though.

Click to expand...

Well, it's kind of got no set standard.

Knowing the Opponent and Bubble Shield both occur before Time Stop.
Players do not draw cards when Time Stop is used.

As far as I can reason out. KtO and Bubbleshield both proc when your attack connects and before the two chip damage is dealt.

KtO is phrased "when you block an attack." Given how the game works, this occurs before damage calculation.
Ditto for Bubble Shield.

Now, the way I see it, there's two different ways you can look at it. Here is Vendetta's current ability phrasing:

"Whenever you block an Ender or Can't Combo attack, you may hit back with a red normal attack (it becomes an ender), then draw a card."

1.) It occurs before Time Stop, same as the other two abilities. This is okay, but I do not know how you like the idea of allowing Vendetta to win games off of a combat that Geiger "won." Nor do I know how you like the idea of Vendetta using the ability's kantrip to pull a joker.

2.) It can only be ruled an ender after the combat has been resolved. This solves a second issue where Vendetta blocks a Midori Q only to have it be Glimpsed. The ruling on whether or not he has successfully blocked after being thrown out of time stop is awkward and will run you into problems when comparing it to mix-up normals that you were crossed up on and skills like KtO and Bubble Shield.

Both KtO and Bubble Shield lack the conditional that Vendetta has. Vendetta has to check for whether the skill is an ender/can't combo. The only other reference that I can think up is Troublesome Rhetoric's interaction with Unstable Power, but I do not remember how it resolves and it occurs before combat instead of during it anyway.

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If you can't tell from my blatant lobbying, I think option 2 makes the most sense (especially seeing as it covers the issue with Midori's ability card) and would like to see it implemented. Regardless of which route you take, I'd be interested in knowing why you took it.

If you do decide to use the second option, then I would suggest changing the phrasing to avoid unnecessary complication. Something like:

"After combat has resolved, if you blocked an Ender or Can't Combo attack, you may hit back with a normal attack (it becomes an ender), then draw a card."

As far as my earlier reservations about what is qualified as blocking with regards to Geiger's spirals, I realized as I typed up this message, that Geiger's innate activates only when he deals block damage, so, regardless of when it activates, Vendetta's innate should certainly occur. I plead temporary insanity.

That means Vendetta cannot win. You should really give a lot more detail than that and suggestions, and also surely you mean Rook can't win because of 2,2,2,2,2 or something. It's also an absurdly strong claim that any match is 10-0 ever, so I think it's best to never say that without extensive explanation. It's close to impossible in the Yomi engine.

Bare Your Soul ability revised:
After the draw phase, you may attach this to your opponent's characer card. While attached, he must play with the top card of his deck revealed. If he would draw a Hearts card, turn that card face down instead of drawing it and put this card in your discard pile.

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Does this effect still end when the opponent performs the action involving that Hearts card?

Seems like Ven's normals shouldn't be returnable on trade, because that makes no sense. Guys in chat suggested that maybe it could say "Whenever your normal attack (as a combat card) wins combat or is blocked, you may return it to your hand instead of drawing a card." or something

Is it ever going to be worth trading a random card for a normal attack? This is actually a question, because I don't know the answer. But normals tend to be weak compared to the chance of drawing Aces, Jokers or face cards.

Does the first clause Ven's innate allow you to combo with the normal that hit and then return it, or do you choose to take it back immediately (i.e. at the same time as you would normally be drawing the random card)? It seems that would make a big difference as to whether or not to grab it back. I always assumed you could combo, but the wording at present doesn't appear to specify.

The idea is you can combo and return. It has an iffy wording at the moment.

I think it's worthwhile to return 2s in some matchups, like vs BBB or Rook. Maybe it's also good outside those, not sure. In general the moves that tend to outspeed 2 are enders, which Ven punishes hard on block, so that makes a repeatable comboable 2.2 better than it would be on other characters. It does mean you're not drawing into new stuff though, like Acro, jokers, aces, Ks, 7s.

Is a fast ender Claw Trip still a possibility? I remember trying that out a while back and liking it (with the old innate, that is). I think that would be another good candidate as a buyback. Makes for a neat 2/7 mixup on KD, too. Maybe Ven doesn't need more poking options, though, and a spammable 7-throw threat might be overkill with K. Still, I thought it was fun, and in the current build without linker throws, I don't think Claw Trip gets many chances for use.

The idea is you can combo and return. It has an iffy wording at the moment.

I think it's worthwhile to return 2s in some matchups, like vs BBB or Rook. Maybe it's also good outside those, not sure. In general the moves that tend to outspeed 2 are enders, which Ven punishes hard on block, so that makes a repeatable comboable 2.2 better than it would be on other characters. It does mean you're not drawing into new stuff though, like Acro, jokers, aces, Ks, 7s.

Ven(lofo) vs sets(2 matches)
Seems pretty swingy, but probably sets favor. A lot will depend on acro draws/damage. If ven has to go defensive because of a bad hand he's in hell.

Ven(lofo) vs Quince(1 match)-
Oh holy hell.
Acro realllly screws with quinces game. Both facecard flip and his Ace setups.
multiple 2's in one turn seems pretty evil.
Overall feeling was quince has all the right bullshit stuff, but he doesn't really have enough of a threat. 2's into 10's into innates are fun, but its really really hard to actually hurt anyone. He's not just low damage, but SUPER inefficient with not much draw unless he hits 2's. It might just be he's COMPLETELY not my style though and will take someone better to get him right. Certainly a LOT of thought.

Golden highlight-
Hit ven. Reveal Q.
Play my facedown.
lofo-"sorry i forgot what did you reveal again?"
*Eji has moved Q from his hand to the field*
Eji-"hmm...after a moment of thought, that was not wise."
*Eji has moved facedown and Q to his hand*

I realize that may be hard to understand, but it's hilarious if you figure out what happened.

Quince(lofo) vs Sets

Anyways other than a valuation mistake lofo is certainly better with Quince than me. Still feels SUPER weak number wise. I think if you leave his damage the same and just up the speed on some of his face throws/attacks he'll be a lot better. And maybe change the Cp's a bit.

Quince(lofo) vs val

Oh dear god multiple 2's into 2's with 10's and K's in discard and draw. Such evil.

I landed a throw into 345 early but got MAJOR hand screwed(my fault for over extending, but drew 4 throws the ENTIRE match.). Nothing but attacks(mostly face cards. J and K) while he looped 10's and K's. Was major neat to see work, so i think its a good thing that quince CAN lock you down like this, but it needs to be able to happen vs competent players, not unlucky vals who blow their hands.

I'm pretty sure this was the absolute GOD result for quince(both in draws on his and my end.), but he should be able to do this more often. Even though it SUCKED, it was a fun suck. Further it should be noted that multiple 2's a turn are really fun in that "oh god no" sort of way, but can take quite some time to sort, value, and set up.

I think we actually played two games of Ven vs Setsuki, the second being the overall third game. In the first I used innate to buy back a 2 poke and felt like it was a good decision, since I was winning combats and your hand was getting a bit stagnant. In the second I decided not to and topdecked a Q for 2QAA combo, which worked out nicely, but that game I burned my hand really quickly, so maybe I should have kept the Q there or got back the 2? You got a huge life lead really early so I don't know, I was climbing out of a hole the whole game.

So, playing vs Eji's Quince he and I noticed some interactions I hadn't previously known about

10* deals damage post-combat and innate only checks for damage and checks at end of turn, so 10 triggers innate

under the "reveal normal as combat card = draw" rule, with A* you can reveal a normal, draw, then not use it, since the ability says both cards are you combat cards

The first makes 10* pretty interesting. Whereas previously I'd thought of it as a way to drain options, now I'm aiming for ways to make sure they can't pay so I can go crazy. That can give him openings to do his stuff even against characters who make it very difficult for his slow options to win combat normally. Quince is really card hungry, so if he trades one-for-one here it can be weak, but burning rare options (throw vs Val/DeGrey, block vs Jaina) is solid. It might need some tweaks but it fits into his gameplan in an interesting way. @Eji: Apparently I cheated when I named "dodge" vs your Setsuki. It can only hit A/T/B. That's kinda lame tbh

The second gives him a stable option to use under A* without burning too many cards. You reveal block and a mixup normal, and either way you've got a safe option that pressures, including not giving them an extra card if they block right. Even if it doesn't work in "normal not interrupted" land, I think it's probably still a staple play. It's also probably his best shot at landing 5-6-7, since he has no linkers and no 1cp starters.

His 3s seem like trash. I guess I can discard them to Q/innate and mixup normal with them. 4s are obviously garbage.

The ATB was from the other thread, where people pointed out that allowing dodge was 100% vs Rook. A few people (Eji was the first and got 7 upvotes) suggested letting you name any card type in their discard pile; which would prevent you from naming Dodge against Rook, and give a little pressure/counterplay where the opponent would avoid using their precious throw/dodge/whatever to prevent you from hitting the others, and it would allow for a future expansion character having all dodges and no blocks or something.

Sirlin said that allowing it to target discard rather than A/T/B would be "way nerfed". At least the dodgeless version makes Midori happy.

I think not being able to name dodge is terrible. Like I think it's trash against Midori, Rook, since they have SO MANY attack/block/throw that I can't name anything they can't pitch, and I don't have enough cards to wasting them trading 1-for-1. Not being able to name dodge vs most characters makes it "way nerfed" I think. Most characters only have 12 dodges, so that's the easiest card to tax. If they're sitting there with all their 2s,3s,4s in hand to hide them from me, I think I'm ok with that.

About quince not being able to name dodge, there are literally zero better ideas on the table. Examples of things not better than current:
*can name dodge (uh no. Rook. that's actually broken I think)
*can only name stuff in their discard pile (really annoying to actually play, logistically. Claytus already explained why this is a bad idea, worse than the current version. An expansion character having no blocks or attacks or something is irrelevant and should count for zero in this decision, btw.)
*innate mentions Rook (you can't be serious)
*innate mentions you can name combat options "in their deck" (you can't be serious)

So I wouldn't call it "lame," but rather the way it basically has to be.

Again, there is not even a *workable*, *feasible* option on the table other than the current one, much less a better idea. Because there is no way it can possibly name dodge that anyone has mentioned, it seems better to make quince do more damage or something if he is too weak.

Turbo also misquoted me. I said it's "way nerfed" if one of the options to name is "block or dodge." It's strictly easier to discard a "block or dodge" than it is to discard "a block." I didn't say anything about the version where it checks from discard, because Claytus already said enough.

Normal draw rule. Try the version: If you normal attack as your combat card and it's not interrupted (by a faster or same-speed attack), draw a card.

That is only checked after combat options are locked in, not earlier when the combat card is revealed. Probably some way to prevent their draw as a strategic concern outweighs the more elegant version where they always draw when revealed.

Turbo also misquoted me. I said it's "way nerfed" if one of the options to name is "block or dodge." It's strictly easier to discard a "block or dodge" than it is to discard "a block." I didn't say anything about the version where it checks from discard, because Claytus already said enough.

There's way too much attention on that flagstone tax thing. It's fine to assume there won't be a character in the future missing blocks or attacks or throws. It's totally lame to have Flagstone Tax be "choose an option that is in their deck" (I mean seriously now) and just as bad to mention "Rook" on Flagstone tax. It seems fine as it is. I mean maybe it can be way nerfed and require the card type to be in the discard pile, but I'm not sure that's necessary.​

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I didn't realize you were refering to "block or dodge and ALSO in their discard", it looked like you were only talking about the discard. Sorry if that was a misquote. I agree with the "allow dodge" "mention rook" "in their deck" being too awkward; I do think discard could still work without being too "annoying", as pretty much every character will turn on all 3 current options with just a 7-10 plus a face card; letting you tax Midori for dodges the first time he Glimpses or 9's is a buff to Quince rather than a nerf, and if Grave powers up his 3's you can start Taxing away his dodge-into-TPOS. Setsuki could be annoying as you would have to look repeatedly if she uses Bag of Tricks to remove all of a type.​

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A/T/B is pretty easy to learn (despite Lofo assuming it worked on all 4, like TR does), and is slightly less work for quince (can use first turn!); it's just a little weaker in some matchups, and doesn't change the enemy strategy as much as the discard version would.​

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His other abilities have a lot of brainwork to him and there are plenty of numbers to tweak to change his power level so it's not a big deal; just wanted to clear up the misquote issue mostly, didn't realize there was more context to your opinion >_<​

Moar play-
Game 1
Arg vs quince(lofo)
I drew 4 throws and no counters. Won maybe 2 or 3 combats. He had half health when he beat me. He got 3 2's and tons of face cards. This matchup WILL need testing because i feel it's going to be really damn hard for quince. One bubble shield(which i did not land) could be disaster for him.

Oni vs quince(lofo)
I feel oni advantage. If you can just live through all the bullshit quince's late game is weak. He's just SO SLOW when it comes to dealing damage. I beat him by just losing with my face for half the match and then finally killing him WHEN HE HAD 6 CARDS LEFT IN HIS DECK.

Still think 10 needs to be able to name dodge.

10 suggestion-
After combat you may name a combat option on the opponents combat card. They must discard blah blah blah.

Eji I'm lost here. "Still think 10 needs to be able to name dodge." What are you suggesting? "10 names dodge" is broken with Rook and all other ideas where it names dodge are bad. So what are you suggesting?

For the record, in chat Eji said his suggestion is quince names something at the end of combat, and can name one of the combat options the opponent just played, still visible on the table. Lofobal said that is too weird that someone pokes with a 2 attack and quince can name dodge. Lofo also said quince needs cards pretty badly, but wasn't sure how to address that.

So, a couple things. The first is how incredibly card hungry Quince is. Consider a sequence like reveal K to innate, then K-throw next turn, then opponent attacks and you flip into dodge, then play a reasonable ender (throw,A,Q+pump,AA+2A). I'll consider As to be worth 1.5 cards because you'll often get them from triples.
throw - 7 damage, 3 cards, ~2.3 damage per card
A - 8 damage, 3.5 cards, ~2.3 damage per card
Q+pump - 12 damage, 4 cards, 3 damage per card
AA+2A - 34 damage, 8 cards, ~4.3 damage per card

It's little wonder that he can burn through most of his deck without finishing off his opponent with this efficiency. It also shows how he really needs Qs to do decent damage reliably. His threats are so toothless that the opponent can really just attack into his dodges and not care that much.

All this means that against a character like Onimaru, Quince really can't afford to trade one-for-one with his T*, so it goes unused. This is sad imo.

Probably he should do more damage and not *only* draw more cards though. With efficiency that low, he's too in danger of just decking himself. Someone should probably suggest some damage buffs. Seems like probably know enough by now to know he should probably get at least some extra damage.

It'd probably be fine to change Q-attack to 12, since it's hard to land anyways, so it'll mostly affect that dodge sequence. A should come up to at least 10, maybe more. I'm not fond of sweeping changes, so maybe we can start with those.

Those both sound reasonable. What about the AA+A attack? It was intentionally kind of low in case there was some abuseable trap thing he could do with it, but seems like it doesn't actually need to be only 8 damage per card. Maybe could be 12+15 for total of 27 damage for three aces.

J-
This guy has degrey normal syndrome. Making this 1 cp would help his damage a lot (and...literally be degrey's J almost. Sirlin choice if thats bad or flavor since they probably knew each other). You'd then ideally want to combo this, but the flip is still powerful.

Optional thought-
Make the J faster as well(1ish something? Flat 2?). This way its super flexible, but this is both it's up and downside. It's great in combos, but also the closest thing he'd have to a DP(outside of AA), and still flipable.

Optional thought 2-
Give this the pump from the Q throw.

Q-
One thing i noticed was that whenever lofo landed a successful dodge he never followed up with Attack queen, but instead always did throw. For a card hungry guy attack side might actually be superior. It's less damage, but SUPER efficient, and quince can abuse the HELL out of KD. So maybe just a playstyle change there.

Alternatively-
If j actually becomes a decent ender you could remove KD on Q and buff the damage to something like 12-13. Then drop the pump on the throw side and give it 9 dmg and KD.

K-
Ok....the biggest threat here is that you reveal king, and then could fast poke to beat their throw(which beats king) and then combo into AA+A or gamble on Attack Q into big damage. The problem is that raw A is so much better than AA+A. Again though lofo never went for Attack Q so possible playstyle issue. Buffing attack Q could help. Maybe just buff throw speed to 8.8.

A-
We might need to tweak this a little because I think its part of his problem. You basically always want to dodge punish Ace, but he can't really afford to power up for aces so much. I'd say leave it for now but it might need mild tweaking in the future. Further one big issue is that not only is this card damage inefficient, the ability is card inefficient as well.

AA+A-
I'd almost be up for something TOTALLY different. You're never ever ever ever ever ever ever going to want to AA+A right now because that's 3 combats you could've mind screwed your opponent with. With how card hungry quince is and how good the other side of his A is, i'd almost support grave A territory. Like AA+A being 10+25.

Note-
Doing ALL of this would likely be overpowered. Just throwing around some numbers and concepts. Speed buffs might be key too but i'm too tired to try and compare speeds across 2 entire sets of characters to figure out where the important land marks are.

NON QUINCE STUFF-
We need a midori main to go on a testing spree vs expansion characters. A LOT of the new cast can combo into throw and i'm worried about our favorite gurmpy dragon dude.

As long as they can't combo into throw from an attack faster than 2.4, I personally don't see a problem. If they can, I would say it's still OK if there is a tradeoff between throwing and attacking. But sure, I'll get to it.

Quince and Vendetta each having an ender throw is kind of weird, really. Fine with me to reduce the number of those. (Vendetta's could be an attack to likes to combo into rather than a throw he combos into.)

The others that can combo into a throw are Zane and also BBB with his headbutt.

Vendetta's throws have me a bit confused. What is supposed to KD? On the server 8 9 T K all knock down, but 4 7 AA don't. 4 and AA make sense, but why not 7? I would think that either all normal throws KD or none of them do. I think Kidney Shot should get something, though. Either KD or linking would be neat. Right now it kind of makes me yawn and really absolves me of having to make tough decisions about how to use 8's.

No strong opinions about Maximum Ven becoming an attack. If that happens, something slowish is probably fine so that it's clear that one side is for combos and the other is for dodge/naked play. Maybe "Ender" is enough of a hint, though.

I'm kind of sad that his throws don't link anymore, but that's probably okay. Vendetta doesn't need even more tools against Midori, from what I gather.

Edit: Does the "this card" wording of Wall Dive Loop indicate that specific K, or any K you might have? It's relevant somewhat to figuring out what speed other K's in hand are after losing one and playing Acrobatics. I hope it's not suit-specific; that would lead to all kinds of accidents.

7 8 9 10 all knock down for vendetta. If it's not showing up like that, it's an error.

Kidney shot. What's special about it is that it exists at all. Throws have traditionally been very valuable, so an extra throw in the template gives you an extra throw. It does not need to "excite" you in any way past that. With the normal draw rule, maybe throws are worse and extra ones aren't as needed. Anyway I am against making it "exciting" to anyone.

"This card" means the physical card that the words "this card" is written on. It does not mean other cards.

Probably too late to say this, but I am really loving the changes to Perse. Even the decrease to CP, I would call a good choice, since big combos with poor card efficiency is not good for her. Although it takes away combo options, it was rare that they weren't hand suicide.

The New 10 ability is much more elegant, and will help things go smoothly. Before, it happened at a weird time (before draw), and half the time, players would draw and forget about it.