SamirA wrote:Still going to argue this. Yes it is technically an adjective but there are numerous cases where adjectives are used for something else, especially in languages apart from English, which is certainly what Yoku is. Aansluits is not a good word, you did fine on all your other words and they are perfectly acceptable as being absorbed as Yoku, but this word is unacceptable. Tobr'a is a legitimate Yoku word and works perfectly for an air of superiority being displayed by the ranking members of the Kali Mes.

I'll try to find an alternative word then because I still think there should be a "proper" term for them, even if most Kali Mes refer to them as Tobr'a.

Here's a few words I've looked up (first-Swahili, second-African)

Slave:mtumwaslaaf

Servant:mtumishibediende

Cheap:rahisigoedkoop

Volunteer (African): vrywilliger

I kinda like the sound of "Slaaf" or maybe just shorten it to "Slaf"-like it may not literally mean "slave" in Yoku but it would still be semi-offensive but still technically a noun. I think whatever word it is should in Yoku basically mean "underling"-but I couldn't find a word for that on freedict.

Again it is a "proper" term. It would be the same as referring to them as the useless in English and since it isn't English it makes even more sense. You can throw in a THE in every sentence if you wish, but Tobr's is a proper term and is a proper Yoku word.

SamirA wrote:Again it is a "proper" term. It would be the same as referring to them as the useless in English and since it isn't English it makes even more sense. You can throw in a THE in every sentence if you wish, but Tobr's is a proper term and is a proper Yoku word.

What I mean to say is that it sounds like something that should be a slang or a slur that you'd say to someone you deliberately wish to offend. Sure, it reflects their sense of superiority but I can't imagine they'd "stoop" to using an "offensive" term in such a general way. In other words by "proper" I mean "proper society".

As I said in an edit to my last post I'm trying to come up with a term that would technically reflect the idea of "I'm better than you" without going all the way to "You're useless and evil".

The "general" term would mean something slightly offensive and "Tobr'a" would be used if they're done something particularly wrong or if they're just feeling particularly superior that day.

It being a "slang" term only serves my argument. This is a crime syndicate not a government body. Slang terms fit this style of organization better than any other. This term is being used for unofficial informants, what better way to use a "slang" term. It is also still the best term named through all that you have listed, not to mention it is Yoku which is going to be the best way to go with anything we do. Anything that is in lore is automatically better than something that has to be fabricated. I like all of your other terms and allowed for the non-use of Na-Totambu as it can be seen as a historical term and so Ra-Jumbe is a fair compromise which incorporates Yoku. I could have argued that point if we were going for a very strict official style organization that Na-Totambu was a better term to use as it would be seen as the Kali Mes reaching back into their Redguard history for legitimacy, I did not do that.

I understand you did some research and it might have taken some effort, but effort for the sake of effort doesn't have to be used. ZackG has made meshes and chosen to throw them out himself as they weren't the best fit for what we are trying to do. Using a Yoku word (and there aren't many of them) is the way to go wherever they fit in Sutch. Tobr'a is the best word available to be used within the Kali Mes in a meaningful way.

What's the difference between Onder-jumbe and Shauriaad now? What would be each one's function within the structure of the Kali Mes? I ask because looking at it now just seems they do the same thing.

edit: I always imagined the Ra in Yoku as "Rah", but maybe that's just me. I would read Ra-Jumbe as "Rah-Joom-Beh".Can we change Bwana? It reminds me of kwama and banana... no need to change much, just a letter or two. "Bwani" or something...

Osidian wrote:What's the difference between Onder-jumbe and Shauriaad now? What would be each one's function within the structure of the Kali Mes? I ask because looking at it now just seems they do the same thing.

Well they're at the same "level of the pyramid", so to speak-although technically speaking the trio of the three leaders-if presented three-dimensionally would be one big triangle perched on top of everything else, lying flat-and actually it is somewhat presented that way-it's just the 3D effect is difficult to perceive because I made no attempt to express depth or perspective in the diagram-too much work.

But if you look carefully they're all inter-connected with each other and all tied directly to the Bwanas who are the ones that "support" their power.

Ninja'd response to the Ninja'd response:

"Rah" and "Joom" are just alternate ways of spelling out the same pronunciation as I see it. I went with "bay" because I've watched so much anime and read so much manga that I've gotten used to "e"s at the end of words being pronounced as a long "a"-which I suppose in context of lore would be an Akaviri influence.

I suppose I could change Bwanas to Bwanes (Bwawn-ay, again Akaviri influence). I could also add an "i" to the end of Jumbei and Bwanei to emphasize the pronunciation and add a little more flavor.

Osidian wrote:I see. So there are only three "leaders", but then shouldn't they just have the same rank? They could be known collectively as the Ra-Jumbe (alternatively each one could be one of the three Ra-Jumbe).

Ninja'd response to the Ninja'd response to the Ninja'd response I like Bwane better (if it's "Bwah-neh")

I mentioned this on page 2 so maybe you missed it.

Ra-Jumbei makes the major decisions.Shauriaad advises Ra-Jumbei and to a lesser extent Onder-Jumbei on their decision-acting as a voice of wisdom.Onder-Jumbei is in charge of most of the regular day-to-day decisions.

The current Ra-Jumbei and Shauriaad have been in their possitions for awhile now but the Onder-Jumbei was recently replaced by vote of the Bwanei (to serve as an example for the player regarding the relationship between the Bwanei and the Tatu-Jumbei (a word I just developed for the overall leadership).

Ninja'd response to the Ninja'd response to the Ninja'd response to the Ninja'd response (damn this is getting complicated real quick): My inner-Otaku is telling me to make all the "e"s into "ei"s.

Edit: Moved from the language discussion thread-I thought it best not to have this bit in the public forums.

Okay, found youswear.com (I'm not gonna link to it directly, there's too many dirty words on it-obviously) and found a few Swahili Curses-NSFW if you work with someone who speaks or understands Swahili. :p

Just had a bit of a brainstorm regarding just what "Tobr'a" means. My thought starting out is that-if they're really "useless", why does the Kali Mes even have them? For instance, you have a corrupt member of the guard who is paid to ensure that certain activities are "overlooked" or that the patrol routes are going in a certain direction. He isn't an "official" member, mostly because he can't be-he'd be more useless as an official member of the guild because he wouldn't be in the position to do the things he does. I suppose the term "Tobr'a" could specifically be referring to that very fact, and we could have NPCs explain it in that way:

"They're helpful, but otherwise useless-that is why we call them 'Tobr'a'. They would never make it as a true part of the Kali Mes, they are far too comfortable in their own positions. Some get discovered and sometimes they crawl to us for help afterwards but without their position of power they are truly Tobr'a-we owe them nothing."

Actually, I kinda like that.

It could be elaborated upon in various other ways as well. They are considered pathetic because they betray their own people for money. They don't help the Kali Mes because they believe in their cause, and the Kali Mes owes them nothing more than what they're being paid to do their dirty deeds. If they're discovered and lose their positions they will find no help.

It would be rare but not entirely unheard of for a Tobr'a to become an Askari-but initiation is even more brutal-they must prove their loyalty and demonstrate that they have what it takes to be a true member of the Kali Mes.

So I started out with being doubtful of the term's applicability but after thinking about it I've considered it a little there would be a bit of depth to the reason behind its use.

You essentially just summed up all of my thoughts on the matter when I was pushing for the term so hard, I just never put it into text thinking you would understand. It turns out I was right you do understand it just took you longer to arrive where I was on it that I expected

I did a bit of research, and basically what the Bwanei are capable of is something similar to a recall election-although the process is nowhere near as formal. Rather than a petition, the process usually begins by word-of-mouth. A certain number of Bwanei would have a problem with decision(s) that a member of the Tatu-Jumbei has made. If the issue is bad enough, word will spread amongst the ranks. Often prior to actually calling a meeting, a group of Bwanei will attempt to confront the Tatu-Jumbei member with their issues to determine whether they might be resolved-if that fails, or the issues are simply unresolvable by their nature, the Bwanei will call a meeting.

The meeting is by far the most formal aspect of the process. They start with a period of debate (often given a time limit) and finish with a vote. I haven't quite decided at this point whether removal from office will require a simple majority vote or if there should be a requirement for how much of a majority (i.e. it needs to be at least two-thirds of those attending). Either way if they decide to vote him out the process begins to elect a replacement.

Depending on which one of the Tatu-Jumbei is voted out, the remaining members will temporarily take on different aspects of the missing member's role. Typically, no more than one Tatu-Jumbei member is voted out at a time.

Candidates can range from volunteers to individuals chosen by a number of Bwanei for qualities suited to the position. The campaign period usually lasts no longer than a few weeks to a couple months before an official vote is made.

For any of the aforementioned meetings and votes, not every Bwanei is required to attend but they are all of course encouraged to attend.

If she's a Dunmer then presumably she's spent a long time plotting because Dunmer live longer than humans. That could be why she is the Shauriaad, because she's spent longer in the Kali Mes and has more experience than anyone else alive, even the Ra-Jumbei.

One question, how will Lairah Hawker becoming the Ra-Jumbei play a key part in Sutch being integrated into Hammefell? Or have you not though of that yet?

SamirA wrote:

Tarius wrote:This is entirely a matter of the Bethstapo that will burst in, yell STOP RIGHT THERE, CRIMINAL SCUM, and C&D us to death if we violate copyright.

TerrifyingDaedricFoe wrote:If she's a Dunmer then presumably she's spent a long time plotting because Dunmer live longer than humans. That could be why she is the Shauriaad, because she's spent longer in the Kali Mes and has more experience than anyone else alive, even the Ra-Jumbei.

One question, how will Lairah Hawker becoming the Ra-Jumbei play a key part in Sutch being integrated into Hammefell? Or have you not though of that yet?

Yeah, that's a part I haven't quite worked out entirely. I'm thinking that perhaps she believes that Sutch would be better off as part of Hammerfell while Irgolann, the current Ra-Jumbei, would rather have the territoriality remain ambiguous and of course there are probably others who would like Sutch to become entirely part of Cyrodiil, but that obviously won't happen.