When mixing the poolish it will be very thick. I use a sturdy spatula. I take off any sticky poolish with a flexible dough scraper, or something similar, so you donít lose any poolish. If you want to try to make this poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough let the poolish sit out at room temperature or if you have a proofer, let it sit covered in a container until you see some big bubbles in the poolish. The times for the poolish bubbling has varied for me. It will all depend on your room temperature. Just watch it. Then put the poolish into the refrigerator for 3 days. I mix the final dough this way after experimenting with the best way to mix it. First put the water in the mixer, then the poolish, (take poolish out of container with either flexible dough scraper or your hand). It will be sticky. Scrap the sides of container with the poolish in so you can get all the poolish out. Then add flour, IDY on one side of flour, and salt on other side of flour. Mix until all flour is picked up. Then drizzle oil down the side of bowl and continue mixing until dough looks mixed. This takes about 3 minutes or a little longer in my commercial Hobart 20 qt mixer. If you are using a home mixer it might be a different amount of time to mix the dough. I usually donít mix my dough really long, because I have found the dough seems to get to the right consistency after the cold ferment. Ball dough or dough balls right away and cold ferment for at least 18 hours. I have found that a lower final dough temperature does work out with this dough. Let the dough sit out to warm up for at least an hour. I use a commercial Bakerís Pride oven and the temperature is between 525-550 degrees F on the hearth. After the dough ball has warmed -up, put the dough it flour and lightly dust. Put some flour on the surface you will be opening the dough. Press your fingers around the dough making sure you donít press on the rim. When picking up this dough to finish opening by hand, I have found this dough almost opens itself by going around the dough with my hands. It is really easy to open.

I use KASL flour.

I will wait and see if Peter has any additional instructions for you, since he is the one that figured out this formula. It is basically a regular Lehmann dough sliced up to come up with a poolish preferment. The dough is 61 % hydration. If you have any other questions, just ask.

I also have one last final test for this poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough. Since Friday is Good Friday, market will be closed, so I will have to make the poolish on Thursday. Hopefully this works out for a 4 day poolish.

I also have an update for you on the two dough balls I reported on earlier using the poppy seed method. I ended my experiment because the dough balls had reached the point to be used. In fact, it was a day longer than I had designed the dough to last (by the amount of yeast I used, etc.). By the end of three days of cold fermentation, the poppy seeds for the dough ball that went into the larger Pyrex glass bowl (1 3/4-quart size) started to widen more than the poppy seeds on other dough ball in the 1-quart Pyrex glass bowl, by about 1/8". The dough ball in the larger bowl had flattened more because there was more room for it to do that whereas the dough ball in the smaller bowl had already expanded laterally to touch the sides of the bowl such that the only way left to expand was upwardly. So, the smaller dough ball looked nice and round and plump. I had no way to know whether the two dough balls expanded by the same amount because of their different shapes but it is possible that there were differences. November had cautioned me that there are factors that can cause the poppy seed readings to be less reliable. Maybe that happens if the dough ball is allowed to expand too much laterally. I concluded that for me the better choice based on the sizes of dough balls I make is to use the smaller bowl rather than the larger bowl. That is pretty much what I have been doing anyway.

Thanks for sharing the tip heavy-d gave you. That makes sense on how that tip would work, when using the final dough water and just pouring down the sides of the container into the poolish. I will try that the next time. I didnít think about it before, but the poolish does seem just like a gelatin.

heavy-d tip-ďThe poolish being all gelatin like and filled with CO2 will float off the container walls like a balloon in a bath tub.Ē This could help anyone if they wanted to try to make the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough or other poolishes for their dough.

Thanks for the update on your experiment with the poppy seeds. I could see by this weeks tests with the poppy seeds and the tests I did last week, how much difference there can be in using a bigger diameter container and straight vertical sides in how much the poppy seeds moved. When I use the poppy seed test for future doughs, I will use smaller size containers of the same size to get more consistent results. I believe this is a great way of seeing how much the dough ferments and your tests have also helped me understand this more.

As always, you have me curious about what kind of Lehmann dough you are making now. I guess I will have to wait until you post.

As always, you have me curious about what kind of Lehmann dough you are making now. I guess I will have to wait until you post.

Norma,

This time, I just made the two dough balls to test out the poppy seed method with bowls of two different sizes. The Lehmann dough formulation was just the basic one for a 61% hydration dough using King Arthur bread flour supplemented with vital wheat gluten to approximate the protein content of the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour. I used one of the two dough balls to make a pizza that was baked using two pizza stones. That was also a test, but one that needs modification to be useful to me, so I have nothing to post on just yet. I reshaped and froze the other dough ball for future use.

Thanks for the update on your recipe and methods. I am looking forward to trying it out. I don't have any KASL, but have KABF. Peter indicates that he uses vital wheat gluten to supplement the KABF. Any idea in what ratio you would use in the recipe?

Also, have you done any room temp preferments as opposed to refrigerated and if so what are your thoughts.

For the dough formulation for a single 16" pizza set forth at Reply 225 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226, you would use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ to determine how much vital wheat gluten (VWG) to add to the KABF, which has a protein content of 12.7%, to get the equivalent protein content of the KASL, which is 14.2%. You can use the pull-down menus for the KABF and the brand of VWG you would be using (if it is on one of the pull-down menus). The target mass for the dough formulation referenced above is 310.16 grams, and the target % is 14.2. MassA is the amount of KABF to use and MassB is the amount of VWG to use. The two should add up to 310.16 grams in the above example.

Thanks for the update on your recipe and methods. I am looking forward to trying it out. I don't have any KASL, but have KABF. Peter indicates that he uses vital wheat gluten to supplement the KABF. Any idea in what ratio you would use in the recipe?

Also, have you done any room temp preferments as opposed to refrigerated and if so what are your thoughts.

Pizza Rustica,

I haven't tried any room temperature ferment with this dough. It has been all cold ferment for one day. Someday I want to take some dough balls home and try to see how long it will last while cold fermenting and also try a warm ferment. I just didn't get around to trying both of these at this time.

Norma, you mentioned one day fermentation, but i thought I read you were doing a 3 day cold fermentation?

Pizza Rustica,

Sorry if I confused you about the time of cold ferment. These are the steps I do.

1. Mix poolish2. Let sit at room temperature until it bubbles-should have some big bubbles-keep lid on (can be anywhere from 1 1/2 hour to 3 hours, all depends on your room temperature)3. Put poolish in the refrigerator with lid on.4. Let poolish in refrigerator for 3 days.-I mix the poolish Friday and do the final dough on Monday.5. After poolish is in the refrigerator for 3 days add the Final Mix with the poolish.6. Ball dough and let cold ferment for 1 day.

It is 3 days cold ferment for the poolish and 1 day cold ferment for the final dough.

VWG is just protein and is produced in the manner as described in the forum's Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#V. So, one of its effects is to increase the protein content of the flour to which it is added. The VWG should also add a bit more crust color and yield a slightly chewier crust. I have read that VWG should also result in greater dough volume although I have not observed that effect (on the other hand, I have never done a side-by-side experiment). The VWG supplementation approach is usually used when one does not have access to high protein flours such as a high-gluten flour. I have found that it works better for bread flour than for all-purpose flour. However, bread flour supplemented with VWG is not identical to high-gluten flour.

This is the poolish I mixed today for incorporating into the final dough on Monday. You can see how much I let it ferment. The first 3 pictures are of the poolish and how it looked before going into the deli case.

Norma

If anyone else is following this thread, I talked to the market manager on Wednesday and I was allowed at market today. Phew..I didnít have to deal with seeing if the poolish went to Monday. I made a double poolish today for 30 lbs. of dough. If this works out okay, then I am going to make all the dough with the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough. I donít know if it was because there was more poolish, but it only took 50 minutes in the Hatco Unit for the poolish to get to this point on the pictures. The temperature of the Hatco Unit was between 106-109 degrees F. I used water that wasn't heated. The temperature at market today was 70 degrees F. When I finally get to make all my dough with the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough, I will need to use the mixer with the flat beater to mix the poolish. It was hard incorporating the water, flour, and IDY with the spatula today. Also, this is a picture of the new cutter rocker blade I am going to try Tuesday.

Based on Reply 273 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg91181.html#msg91181, it appears that for a 30-pound dough batch you made around nine pounds of poolish. If so, I can see how it can take some time to make that amount of poolish, especially without using your commercial mixer. Can you give me an idea of how long it took to make the poolish this time?

As for the shortened prefermentation period, it is possible that the shorter prefermentation period was due to the poolish getting a head start during its preparation at the warmer 70 degrees F ambient temperature at market. In my experience, it doesn't take long for the temperature of a dough (or poolish in your case) to warm up toward room temperature. It's also possible that the poolish is prefermenting faster because of its greater mass. This effect is often called the "mass effect" and is based on the chemical reactions occurring faster than in a small amount of dough. You can see a summary of the mass effect at Reply 490 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg30150.html#msg30150.

Thanks again for the help and education on VWG. We are going skiing for easter vacation so I won't be able to try until I return, but I do want to experiment with the VWG. Its very hard to get the KASL on the west coast without ordering from somewhere back east.

Norma,

Your clarification was very helpful. Quite a long period of fermentation. no wonder your results always look so good. Let me know how your new knife works. I think the rocker style is better for cutting and not dragging the cheese and other ingredients all over the pizza.

You are correct in saying the poolish I made was about nine pounds. I used 4.52 lbs. flour, 4.52 lbs. water, and 0.02 lbs. IDY. It took me about 15 minutes to properly get it incorporated, while using the spatula. I first mixed the IDY into the flour, then added the water.

I believe you are correct in saying about the higher ambient temperature at market, combined with the higher water temperature, then the longer mix of the poolish at room temperature, and then also the ďmass effectĒ. I can see when all these factors are in combination how the dough did ferment faster when put into the Hatco Unit. As I saw the other week, even when mixing a smaller batch the temperature of the poolish did go up.

The article you referenced under the Lehmann thread by Didier Rosada is very interesting about dough strength. Since pizza making and baking can have connections, when Didier Rosada was talking about how it almost impossible to judge the strength of the dough by reading a technical book and learning to have bakerís hands, that is what most of us newer people need to learn when making pizza. In his definition of strength he lists three characteristics: extensibility, elasticity, and tenacity. Being extensibility dough that is easy to stretch. Elasticity dough springs back. Tenacity resists stretching, so it is critical for bakers or pizza makers to maintain a good balance between elasticity and extensibility in order to get adequate dough and final product characteristics in baking. This can have a direct impact on the strength of the dough. The type of flour used also has a great effect.

I understand after reading this article about the ďmass effectĒ of larger dough and fermentation being greater on larger dough batches and how poolish preferments can give positive effects in the final dough. It is also interesting about how preferments not only affect flavor, but also give strength to the final dough. When Didier Rosada talks about getting the maximum benefits from preferments in relationship to being properly maintained, which in turn will give a good balance of strength to the final dough this is all something I will have to learn with more experience.

That article has so many good points for pizza makers as well as bread bakers. In conclusion he states that dough strength canít be learned in books and lots of working with dough or under supervision is our best teachers. I can understand this as I am still on the learning curve and need to understand more about pizza dough.

I appreciate you helping with this learning process.

Thank you for pointing me to these links and letting me know more about ďmass effectĒ,

Norma

Pizza Rustica,

Yes, the two steps in this dough do give a longer fermentation. I really like this formula

Thank you for saying the pizzas look good. I am anxious to try the rocker style and see how it works out. I will let you know how it goes. It would be a great help if this cutter doesnít drag the cheese over the pizza.

The double batch of poolish and final dough went well today. I donít know if my eyes were deceiving me or if the poolish looked like it had more bubble activity. In my opinion it did look like there were more bubbles than other weeks. I took half of the poolish and scaled it and then incorporated into the final dough. I had placed my water containers in the deli case when I got to market because it was warmer today. My deli case was 36 degrees F. I took the temperature of the poolish after dividing and it already had risen to 44 degrees F. The left over poolish was then put back in the deli case. The ambient room temperature at market was 72 degrees F. After I was ready to mix the water with the poolish the temperature of the water was 66 degrees F. For the first batch I just took some poolish out and weighed it, and then added it to the water. For the second batch I added water to the poolish and then poured them both into the mixer and still had to scrap some bits of poolish out. Final dough temperatures on both batches were 66 degrees F.I took 1 dough ball from each batch and placed poppy seeds on them to see what results there will be tomorrow. The dough on both batches seemed more sticky today and I canít figure that out, but will wait until tomorrow and see what happens.

The double batch of the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough of 30 lbs. worked out well today.

The pizza board and cutter rocker blade also worked out well. The cutter rocker blade really made the pies easy to cut. The pizza board really was a nifty piece of equipment. The only problem I had with the pizza board is I didnít realize how easily the pizza would slide off, and after I took this picture of the whole pie, I went to transfer it to the deli case and it just slid off and dropped on my pants and shoe. The cutter rocker blade was so sharp, my daughter cut her finger on it.

The poppy seeds did move and stayed about the same the rest of today.

I also am still trying a Take and Bake and did parbake a pizza today and brought it home to try to see what happens. The last three pictures are of the Take and Bake pizza. I only let it in the oven until the bottom seemed to get partly finished.

I baked the Take and Bake pizza tonight at 425 degrees F for 9 minutes. In my opinion doing the parbake really helped to make this Take and Bake pizza easy to bake at home.

What I am still trying to figure out is what temperature this kind of pizza should be baked and if I baked it long enough. The flavor of the pizza was good, and the crust had crunch, but the flavor of the sauce didn't stand out like the pizzas I baked at market. Still trying to figure out why the flavors of the sauce changed. Back to the drawing board.

The double batch of poolish seemed to have bigger bubbles today. I wanted to see what the PH of the poolish was and also the PH of the final dough. The poolish PH was 5.51 and the final dough PH was 6.14. I really donít know what that means, but might measure both of these from week to week to be able to find out more and maybe research on what the PH in dough means. The one picture is of the whole poolish and the next picture is after half of the poolish was taken out of the container. Other two pictures are of the PH meter in the poolish and then in the final dough.

I also had intentionally left a 5 oz. dough ball of the poolish preferment of the Lehmann dough that had been frozen 3 weeks ago at market for two weeks in the deli case to see if there was any possibility that the dough could be used after that length of time. I will try that dough tomorrow. On the picture of the dough ball in a plastic bag, it really looks slack.

This will be my last test on the double batch of the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough. If everything still goes well this week, then I am going to make all my dough this way.

The poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough worked out well, again. The final dough temperature yesterday was 63 degrees, before going into the deli case. I canít still figure this out how this dough works so well when the final dough temperatures are so low. Steve (Ev) was at market today and tasted the Sicilian Pie made with this dough and also the regular pie. He said he really liked the taste of the pies made with the poolish preferment. I gave him a dough ball to try at home. I got so busy talking to him about making pizzas and also trying to make the pizzas, that I forgot to take one pie out of the oven. I should have taken a picture of that pie. I burnt it. I showed Steve how easy this dough is to open and also how it has many bubbles in the dough when opening the dough. I really like this dough. The last pictures is of how the dough looks when opening the dough.

These are some of the pictures from today. Some of these pies had blisters. I still canít figure that out either.

I used my camera to make this video of making the Panini dough using the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough. The video is kind of shaky because I was using my one hand to hold the camera and the other hand to handle the Panini dough.

I would imagine that you are quite pleased that you have hit your groove with the Lehmann poolish-based NY style dough formulation and can offer a quality, highly-differentiated product reliably and consistently that dovetails with your unique business arrangement and hours. You've done a nice job showing the evolution of that product in this thread and how everything has to fit together in a cohesive, logical way. You've trained your dough well .

I am pleased that this poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough has worked out well. I want to thank you and everyone else on this forum that help by posting to keep raising the bar when they try to make a pizza. It has helped me immensely to want to strive for a better pizza. I have been getting customers that say they heard I have the greatest tasting crust around our area.. I know I am only a small place, but that is a direct tribute to this forum and anyone that posts or contributes. With each pizza that is made using the same formula and same setting, I can see a difference in each pizza. I am starting to believe pizza are like fingerprints. No pizza is exactly like the other.

I am really happy with this formula and how it has evolved. I might need some more tweaking when summer comes, but last week the ambient temperature inside my market stand on market day was 92 degrees F, and the dough still worked out well.

Thanks for saying Iíve done a nice job. It has been a journey, but a pleasant one. Each step helps me to learn different things. Hopefully I will be able to help other people in their journey in trying to make a better pizza.

I still am trying to make a Take and Bake Pizza with this formula and will test that for awhile.

I donít know at this time, what is on the agenda next. Do you have any ideas that you would want me to try?

Thanks for your help,

Norma

Here is what happened with the old dough ball:I used the old dough ball to make a pizza, that had been left in the deli case for 2 weeks. This dough ball had been frozen before. On the pictures it shows a normal dough ball that was used this week and then the old dough ball to compare side by side. These dough balls are used to make Panini.

After patting the dough ball with some flour the dough ball took on a whiter color and was easy to open. It was then dressed with sauce and mozzarella. As you can see there wasnít any oven spring and the color of the rim and bottom crust remained white.