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lurks in the shadows

Yeah Starmie is easily the best spinner in OU, in addition to being a good revenge killer, a big threat for offensive teams with his awesome speed and coverage, very good check to rain teams, and being very resilient due to Natural Cure and Recover.

I know most of you will bash me on this but I'll say it anyways.
I was talking to some people and they were saying they thought garchomp is potentially a S-tier pokemon due to being able to run a good SD (Yache), CB, CS, and defensively-oriented sets while having a fantastic dual stab, typing, defenses, and great attack and speed. I understand garchomp is good. But With how fast the current meta is and how offensively oriented it is. I just don't think it's good enough for S, or even A. It's definitely not sweeping easily without the reliable means to increase its speed. What do you guys think?
It's compared much with terrakion and I don;'t believe garchomp deserves to be in the same tier as terrakion, who is naturally faster (though weak to mach punch) and has rock polish to actually sweep.

If and when we get around to BL and below, I have to argue for Gothitelle in A, or failing that B at least. Sure, it's pretty slow and it has lame special attack and mediocre typing. But it's the only Pokemon we have able to trap and kill effectively whatever you like with the right set. Got Genesect issues? Use a set with Thunder Wave, and it can't lock itself into anything other that Bug Buzz/U-turn without being crippled. With many teams relying on it as a revenge killer, sweepers of your own can come in comfortably and roll through whatever opposition remains safe in the knowledge they aren't going to be outsped.

It's the same story with almost every Pokemon in OU. Between Tbolt, Psyshock, Trick, Thunder Wave, and the various coverage options, it's the perfect partner for almost anything. With a little support, it also makes stall practically inviable all on it's own - not that stall is particularly threatening right now, I'll accept, but such teams are still out there and getting a vital wall picked off with impunity just isn't something they can afford.

Oh scarf Thunder traps and KOs all Tornadus-T after SR too, Thunderbolt can do the same provided Tornadus has a Life Orb. Keldeo, Terrakion, Starmie, Alakazam and Breloom all suffer a similar fate, to name a few unfortunate souls.

lurks in the shadows

I know most of you will bash me on this but I'll say it anyways.
I was talking to some people and they were saying they thought garchomp is potentially a S-tier pokemon due to being able to run a good SD (Yache), CB, CS, and defensively-oriented sets while having a fantastic dual stab, typing, defenses, and great attack and speed. I understand garchomp is good. But With how fast the current meta is and how offensively oriented it is. I just don't think it's good enough for S, or even A. It's definitely not sweeping easily without the reliable means to increase its speed. What do you guys think?
It's compared much with terrakion and I don;'t believe garchomp deserves to be in the same tier as terrakion, who is naturally faster (though weak to mach punch) and has rock polish to actually sweep.

I strongly disagree.
Garchomp lost sand veil, which is surprisingly awesome and easy to abuse, and its 102 may not be as good as it was in gen 4 to 6-0 sweep the enemy team without a reliable way to boost its speed. But garchomp is still garchomp. The SDYache set works well in almost any team (I particularly love it on the sun team) as a wallbreaker and to create holes for the primary sweeper. The CB set is fantastic...absolutely awesome and happens to be my favorite set. It's strong and the speed is fantastic for a CB mon. IMHO, CB is the best garchomp set but I am absolutely positive almost everyone disagrees. I don't know about S tier (possibly but it doesn't seem like a solid S) but it's at least A-tier worthy.

I strongly disagree.
Garchomp lost sand veil, which is surprisingly awesome and easy to abuse, and its 102 may not be as good as it was in gen 4 to 6-0 sweep the enemy team without a reliable way to boost its speed. But garchomp is still garchomp. The SDYache set works well in almost any team (I particularly love it on the sun team) as a wallbreaker and to create holes for the primary sweeper. The CB set is fantastic...absolutely awesome and happens to be my favorite set. It's strong and the speed is fantastic for a CB mon. IMHO, CB is the best garchomp set but I am absolutely positive almost everyone disagrees. I don't know about S tier (possibly but it doesn't seem like a solid S) but it's at least A-tier worthy.

I still think garchomp is way overrated.
In almost any situation, I'd much rather use terrakion and landorus.
I hate saying one pokemon outclasses another and terrakion doesn't really outclass garchomp. but Terrakion is faster, just as strong, and has rock polish to use on Double dancer, which can actually sweep. Landorus can also sweep teams unlike garchomp. Also, garchomp doesn't outrun anything that landorus can't other than landorus and speedtie with other landsharks. All in all, landorus and terrakion can sweep and garchomp can't and in my opinion garchomp is overrated.

that's a counter. people could argue about the definition for decades, but in general, a counter is a "stronger" answer than a check - switches in more easily, equal or easier time threatening the target, etc. refer to the Checks and Counters thread started by Antar in the main smogmeta section for more discussion of this; it's probably a bad idea to clutter up this thread with semantics like that

EDIT: I eat my words. Keldeo in rain is definitely A-tier, even with surf. 2HKOing physically defensive Slowbro with Specs Surf is pretty neat. I don't even think Hydro Pump would net you any crucial OHKO/ 2HKOs. Then again I've only just started using Keldeo.

I'd honestly want to see Cresselia added to this list. I've been toying around with a couple Cresselia teams lately, and so far this particular Pokemon has proven to be pretty effective at tanking and sweeping quite a lot of special attackers in the metagame, and even goes so far as to wall physical threats to a small degree as well.

This set is taken directly out of the team I've been using lately. This team has been enjoying a good amount of success on the ladder, with Cresselia winning many key fights in the game.

Timid Nature and 160 EV's in speed bring it up to 270, just enough to outspeed Adamant Dragonite, along with many other potent, non-choiced threats.

252 Defense brings it up to a solid 339. Along with a solid 384 HP, it's able to survive a plethora of physical attacks from a lot of the metagame, thus eliminating much of a need for Reflect, as this is a more offensively-inclined set.

The remaining 96 EV's go into Special Attack, so that it has at least some impact coming out of a +1 Calm Mind. (+1 SpA gives it 315 in that stat. Pretty nice, heh?) Quite often, I'm easily able to get to +2 or +3 before I start to sweep. Not only does this make Cresslia a monstrous special wall, but a potent sweeper as well.

Special Defense investments aren't necessarily needed, as 296 is an awesome number to start with. If I get a single Calm Mind in, this stat shoots up to an absurd 444, making it extremely hard to kill as is without a critical hit or a boosted attack from the opponent, if they're specially based. +2 makes it 592. These numbers serve to state how much of an impressive tank Cresselia can become if it is allowed to set up in front of anything.

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Psychic is the obligatory STAB, allowing it to attack a good portion of the metagame when the time comes. This one is pretty much obvious to have on Cresselia.

Ice Beam gives it coverage against most dragons in the metagame. As Cresselia can tank a large number of physical hits, it can at least fire off an Ice Beam most of the time before being forced to switch into something that resists Outrage, Dragon Claw & Company. It can do the very same thing to Tornadus, Thundurus, and other flying types that get in its way. (It does have problems with a Banded Lando's U-Turn, but if it's a different variant, it usually is able to OHKO with Ice Beam.)

Cresselia can set up in a specially-based dragon's face a lot of the time, as Calm Mind is an extremely potent walling and sweeping weapon that Cresselia possesses. If it can succeed in getting to +2, you're looking at 420 SpA, 592 SpD, and 384 HP that it can very easily use to attack anything carrying special (and even many physical) moves.

Moonlight is Cresselia's main and only source of reliable recovery outside of Leftovers. This lets Cresselia live for a long time indeed, although it's not seen a lot of use due to the very large presence of rain and sand in today's metagame. In sunlight, it is boosted to 66% recovery, allowing to to shrug off huge amounts of damage, while dishing out its own pain in return.

Hidden Power Fire may be used as an alternative, if Moonlight or Rest aren't to your tastes. It can abuse the sun for a 140 Base Power Fire move to OHKO most steels out there, barring Heatran. However, like Moonlight, it absolutely hates the rain, so you still need to watch out for the likes of Scizor and Genesect (especially the latter), if you've not had the opportunity to set up at least to +1/+2, and it's raining.

Energy Ball can also serve as an alternative attack that can discourage rain teams from making short work of you. However, you'll still have to deal with steels walking all over you.

Calm Mind's merits have been explained already, and there's no need at all to subsitute this move for any other, as it's key to Cresselia's longevity and power in many situations.

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Cresselia's checks and counters are somewhat obvious. Chansey & Blissey can wall it to infinity, even if she is running Calm Mind, as many of them like to carry Toxic.

Gastrodon also helps in wearing it down, but if Cresselia is set up, it can still remain there to kill Gastro (unless you chose to run Energy Ball instead of Moonlight/HP Fire).

Genesect can also wear her down with repeated U-Turns, if you don't carry Moonlight on you. A Banded version can even OHKO you.

Landorus is also a major threat, as its high-powered U-Turns have a chance of mowing this one down. Pretty much any competant Volt-Turn team can give her trouble, if you can't predict well enough to score enough kills to keep them at bay.

If you're carrying either a Moonlight or HP Fire variants of offensive Cresselia, rain teams will walk all over you the whole time the weather is set up, becuase your only viable attacking moves are now Psychic and Ice Beam.

Regardless, you'll still have trouble with Rain stall, especially in the likes of bulky waters, who will likely shrug off Energy Ball and recover with ease, unless you're able to set up in their faces (which is an iffy circumstance).

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Support for Cresselia is more or less vital. If you're carrying HP Fire or Moonlight, sun support is much more viable if you want to keep her attacking and recovering longer. It's not as vital if you're just using the CM + 3 attacks variant, as long as you've got Energy Ball to keep you protected against opposing waters.

Ninetales is of course obligatory for most variants for Cresselia, as he resists U-Turn. Both Ninetales and Cresselia work well together to give VoltTurn teams trouble, as many U-Turn users are either weak to, or do not resist Fire.

Thundurus-T is also a great option (in spite of it being likely a sun team), as its Volt Absorb ability really meshes together with the other two Pokemon, in the fact that it totally shuts down Volt Switch users (especially Rotom-W) in the sun. I've found that a Scarf variant is very effective, as you're able to fire off Volt Switches of your own to get Thundurus out of there in case you're wanting to use a simple hit-and-run technique.

Stuff that resist both fire and water are also good for this team, as well as things that tank Rock and Fighting moves, as they might be a pain for other support 'mons for Cresselia.

In the end, this thing doesn't need a lot of support to get off the ground and get rolling. All it needs is an opportunity to switch in on something it can set up on with impunity and get to sweeping.

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In conclusion, I would probably think this particular Pokemon would belong in the B-Tier, as it does need support, but can operate very well on its own if the circumstances call for it.

is a motionless pedophile

I completely agree with Ganj4lF, Venusaur is in a similar boat to Tornadus-T in that it requires weather to function best but can sweep with little support after that (of course, it won't be able to get past every check on the same set, especially if it uses Sleep Powder and Growth together), but it is a real threat from Team Preview. Additionally, learning Earthquake means it can easily get rid of its best counter if you don't want to run Dugtrio, for example.

That said, I believe that Tornadus-T and Deoxys-D could be S rank with ease. At the same time, Starmie being the best spinner makes it an immediate candidate for another spot on that tier, since it has ways to get past the things that stop it (though I'm not completely sure it goes with the definition of S tier, but being able to do something as important as Rapid Spinning as reliably as Starmie does it surely means something). Gengar being the premier spinblocker atm and Ferrothorn the premier mixed wall / Spiker for balanced teams could potentially shoot them up to A rank and I'd be completely fine with it, too.

Persona 5

On Ferrothorn's tiering placement:
If this tier list were made in BW1, i'd have no problem with placing Ferrothorn in A-tier, but as it stands in the current metagame, it doesn't belong in A-tier. The claim that's capable of walling everything is patently false, it actually flat out loses to the vast majority "of big name" new threats in BW2 like Keldeo, Genesect, Tornadus-T, and Thundurus-T. Not to mention the fact that Breloom received a massive buff, Garchomp getting unbanned, the rise of Terrakion & Landorus and most of the older Dragons got Fighting moves make Ferrothorn's job even harder than before. The end result is the BW2 metagame is really harsh towards Ferrothorn. That doesn't mean its necessarily bad, it's still king at walling certain threats, and hard to play around if you a grass-type or a spinner but it's nowhere near as good as it was during its prime.

On Venusaur tiering placement:
Venusaur is really powerful, and I can see why some would want to place it in A-tier, but in comparison to Tornadus-T as a "premier" weather abuser, it kind of falls short. For one, outside of rain Tornadus-T is still a lightning fast offensive Pokemon with Regenerator, U-turn and a 70% accurate hurricane which is still solid. Venusaur outside of sun is a realllly slow offensive Pokemon with the occasional sleep move that's kind of easy to check. It doesn't really hold up well without sun behind. Not to mention the fact Rain is significantly more common, so there's less stress on Tornadus-T players because they don't have to worry about keeping their weather.

Mew is blue

I think both Reuniclus and Toxicroak would fit comfortably in B tier. Both are relatively threatening and don't have too difficult a time setting up.

Reuniclus's Trick Room set is probably its best bet for this metagame. The CM mind variant is going to have an a hard time coming in on much and won't have adequate time to both set up and actually do something. It's trick room set is a lot scarier for the offensive teams that are so ubiquitous right now.

Toxicroak shines most in the rain, naturally, and there's no point in running it if you aren't also running rain. That being said, if you're running toxicroak and your opponent changes the weather on you, Toxicroak isn't utterly screwed, and is actually still pretty potent, even if its longevity is decreased.

Has got the gift of gab

I can't see a way where Ninetales doesn't fit this description. Ninetales sets up an Automatic Constant Sunny Day for zero trade off. Drought could be argued to be the largest support any one pokemon can bring and it doesn't take Ninetales any turns to set it up; it just has to come in. Chlorophyll and Fire-type boost alone should push Ninetales' support rating to S Tier. If Politoed is S Rank(which it definitely is) then so is Ninetales.

Nominating Terrakion for S Rank

Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support

Terrakion can demolish any wall in the OU metagame. Not only that but it can also sweep entire offensive teams lacking solid priority. Between sets like SubSD destroying the likes of Gliscor and Slowbro and sets like SubSalac and Rock Polish cleaning up whole squads of offense I think its obvious Terrakion belongs in S Rank. Terrakion needs little to no support to pull off what it needs to do, it has all of the tools it needs.

Nominating Reuniclus for B Rank

Reuniclus has had a tough time in BW2, everyone is avoiding it because of the omnipresent Genesect, but Genesect doesn't deter it any more than Scizor used to. Trick Room Reuniclus in particular hasn't lost any of the qualities that made it so good, if anything it thrives in our Hyper Offensive Metagame. TR HP Fire Reuniclus is also one of the best Genesect lures around. Plus CM still rips apart Stall. I almost wanna say A Rank, but not quite there. Overall: B+

I also dunno if I agree with Jolteon being B Rank. What do you guys think?

Oh, come on. C Rank? Really? Everybody knows how much of a dangerous beast Cloyster is in BW2. With setup opportunities at every turn, one Shell Smash and the opponent is off to the races trying to wall this offensive monster. Skill Link + STAB multi-hit attacks = complete and utter devastation. I'm almost tempted to nominate this for A Rank, because it falls under the category of a Pokemon that can "sweep significant portions of the metagame", but I want to see if it can achieve B Rank before pushing my luck too far. Anyways, you know how much work Cloyster does, give it a spot in B Rank at the very least.

Mew is blue

Ninetales doesn't deserve S tier, imo. What it does for its team is important, but it can have a very difficult time finding a way or time to come in. You're lying to yourself if you think ninetales performs the role of weather inducer even close to as easily as politoed.

fire nation

I would like to see Hippowdon move up to A tier. It's the only weather starter that has access to instant recovery, and has the bulk to use it effectively. This alone allows it to handle sun teams very effectively. Ninetales can attempt to burn it, but with Slack Off and EQ, it can't do much back to it.

It's also not vulnerable to basic U-turn/Volt Switch -> Dugtrio trapping like tyranitar and Ninetales are (although nobody switches in ninetales on a u-turn anyway). Gothitelle may be able to trap it but it has to be Specs and has to carry Grass Knot. HP ICe with specs can only 2hko if it gets high damage rolls on the specially defensive variant.

Hippowdon is also a decent switch in to Scarf Genesect (probably the most popular set). If you give it 25 Def IVs, a specially defensive Hippo will always give Genesect the attack boost and Ice Beam will only do 41-49%.

Additionally in a mirror match of weather, Tyranitar is pretty useless outside of trapping psychics with pursuit and setting up Stealth Rock. Hippowdon however can set up stealth rocks, whirlwind, and take a fair amount of hits. Politoed and Ninetales in a mirror are basically death fodder from the beginning of the match.

Overall, it's a great pokemon. It has powerful stab, reliable recovery, and great bulk that can counter a lot of physical pokemon in the meta.

I nominate Reuniclus for at least B tier. Trick Room pretty much says "I am going to fuck your face up for the next 5 turns and you cannot do anything about it". It just has to be able to set it up. Honestly, I have used the TR+CM Reun and that spells good game most of the time when it does get set up. Surprisingly, I am able to set up both quite often, too.

lurks in the shadows

I agree with the placement of Hippo in A tier. He is the best weather inducer to win weather wars, as it doesn't care about any Dugtrio bs, and has reliable recovery. Not to mention that he can check/counter many top tier threats such as Terrakion, Scarf Genesect, Dragonite, Salamence, Jirachi, Gengar and Volcarona with a SpD set. Honestly Hippowdon is on par with Tyranitar for sand teams, and for balanced teams i think that he is clearly superior. Not to mention SR and phazing. Honestly he in one of the best utility walls, providing phazing, SR, sandstorm, excellent mixed defenses and having reliable recovery.

Never practice; Always perform.

I agree with this. Spin support is really the only support it needs to set up. It's an extremely threatening sweeper, and with Sun up, it is going to wreck a lot of opponents. Not to mention it still functions well, even in Rain.

If Keldeo is A, then Gyarados should at least be A rank. Gyarados abuses rain with its stab waterfall and Gyarados easily sets up DDs with it's 95/128/100 defenses. Gyarados could set up 6 DDs with sub against Bulky waters,. STAB waterfall and Bounce is only resisted by Rotom-W. The only advantage Keldeo has over Gyarados is ferrothorn, but against offensive teams, and bulky defensive teams, Gyarados reigns.