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Thema: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas (Gelesen 13921 mal)

I'm glad to see people are interested in this thread, but wow I've never seen a thread explode like this one has.

I must agree with Elite on this one. Obviously there can't be perfect balance in all stages in the game. But just because Rohan has a advantage early game, doesn't mean that Rohan should have no chance against certain faction's late game armies. I don't find that fair at all.

I don't think anyone here doesn't think Rohan is not as powerful late game as the other factions. That is why I don't understand why people are going against buffing Rohan a lot. Having a difference on whether or not what makes them stronger is fine, but saying they are weak and should stay weak doesn't make much sense to me.

To expand on that a little bit, its incredibly hard to finish off a faction early game. Most factions go at least to mid-game, where Rohan loses its advantages. Additionally, the team has stated multiple times that they don't like rush gameplay, and that they want games to always go on longer and reach late game. I share this sentiment. If Rohan remains so weak late game, then this is not being achieved as it should be.

Actually is completely unbalanced that Rohan cannot do anything except harass their rivals. Actually every faction have lot of strategies if playing more defensive ( getting better units with isen for example) or do a decent early game (dungdelings, Bill ferny lvl10, wulfgar...) Isengard is an example of versatility and Great Late game throught their supertanky armies in Late. Gondor also have pretty good spameable soldier, aswell a really good elites that can be buffed with several heros to make the gondor armie unstopable( dont forget ghost)

Also we have the OP veterans for the dwarves ( a player can get around 12-15 of them if the match gets long so the Late game of the dwarves is really good, but boring just the same unit( I hope they will be nerfed to 3 limited vets) and Finally the mighty elves with good warriors in all parts of the game.

Then we have rohan with several handicaps the first one is that rohan depends on harassement. Why not get more than half of the map and become stronger? because you cant. Even with great armies of peasants they suck a lot. Caval is usefull well used but is useless once your enemie spam heavy pikemen. Then the capìtains give you some chances but arent enough good to counter every single enemie elite unit. So rohan lacks on 1 of the most importants things in this game: elite infantry. Camon this is pointless. Every siongle faction have chances on late game. But rohan only have 1 hero giving leadership ( theoden) then rohan only have peasants as infantry. Capitains can be also but they are just useless when your enemie have lots of better units than the capitains ones. If you could just get more westfold infantry....like in the 3.8.1.Also even with a lvl 10 theoden, the mighty charge isnt enough to counter other lategames. So finally you only have 1 chance, spam archers on horse and run from the enemie armie. get the tents and got enough money to buy you the armors (that should be free, but the power is bugged and we have being saying this several patches, but never fixed)

Good points. Theodens leadership is actually the strongest one in the game, and it also affects heroes, so I don't think theres an issue there. I agree that more infantry would help a lot, but I doubt the team is willing to add any more infantry to Rohan. Also, more infantry would somewhat negate the point of Rohan being a cavalry oriented faction.

The point is, buffing cavalry is the wrong way to buff Rohan. I don't know if you've played 3.81 but there Rohan is actually pretty strong because of overpowered Galadhrim. It worked in a way as a balancing factor even though it ruined the gameplay.And that's what I wanted to say: We need to give Rohan a lot of different units that are strong enough for the late game (like the westfold units or the Galadhrim), each of them limited so you HAVE to use a mix of them in the late game (they can be limited in special ways like the Galadhrim you only get through a spell. If the archers would stay you could gather more of them and actually utilize the healing abilites of Rohan.) These armies mixed up from different kinds of elite units should be weaker than some late- game armies, but not that much, so you can compensate for your still weaker infantry with your better cavalry (and a few hordes of upgraded Rohirrim with Theoden etc. can and will crush the enemy archers so YOUR infantry amry can deal with their weakened one). That will, of course, require that you hold a firm grip on map control, which you should have gained earlier.

It's maybe unortodox but I think that only 1 option on outpost it's what makes a difference. The amount of help in type of heroic units, elite units , heroes or resources other factions get it's overwhelming in middle-late game. (Please be gentle i am just thinking out of a box )

The point is, buffing cavalry is the wrong way to buff Rohan. I don't know if you've played 3.81 but there Rohan is actually pretty strong because of overpowered Galadhrim. It worked in a way as a balancing factor even though it ruined the gameplay.And that's what I wanted to say: We need to give Rohan a lot of different units that are strong enough for the late game (like the westfold units or the Galadhrim), each of them limited so you HAVE to use a mix of them in the late game (they can be limited in special ways like the Galadhrim you only get through a spell. If the archers would stay you could gather more of them and actually utilize the healing abilites of Rohan.) These armies mixed up from different kinds of elite units should be weaker than some late- game armies, but not that much, so you can compensate for your still weaker infantry with your better cavalry (and a few hordes of upgraded Rohirrim with Theoden etc. can and will crush the enemy archers so YOUR infantry amry can deal with their weakened one). That will, of course, require that you hold a firm grip on map control, which you should have gained earlier.

Why? Why is buffing cavalry bad? I have seen no reasons for saying buffing cavalry would be bad so far, other than "they would be unkillable by pikes" which is completely untrue. Also, Rohan cavalry loses to Isengard Crossbows late game with shieldbearers and captains, and most players keep their archers protected by at least 1 or 2 pikes. Since porcupine immediately freezes cavalry in their tracks, you can effectively prevent cavalry from harassing archers very easily.

Again, why is Rohan the only faction that should require a diverse mix of units, heavy micromanagement and harassment? You have given no good reasons to convince me so far. No other faction in the game has to deal with this, they can all get away with just building big armies and winning. So why should Rohan have to be the odd man out?

I agree Ringbearer, Rohan does indeed need another type of outpost. That's not the root of all the issues though, and there is a whole other thread for discussing that topic, with lots of great ideas. Go voice your support there

- Don't get us wrong. Buffing Cav per se ain't bad. But buffing Cav against their NR.1 counter is another thing...I gave you guys many different solutions to this topic (see above). But I just won't understand why you persist on the point, that Buffing Standard Cav against pikes is "such a great solution".I don't think that Rohan is the only faction, that needs a mix of units to win. It's just a bit blurry, because every faction reacts with counters. So when Rohan goes for Riders, the enemy has to build pikes (forced adaption which weakens the Infantry strengh). Therefore the Rohan player has to do the next counter step and so on and on and on... (I really don't think that you will see a Gondor player doing only Swordsmen (no Mix), while Rohan players goes strong on Riders.

I think everyone is focusing on the Late Game Army part of this Arguement a bit too much.

I would still like to advertise the idea of Rohan getting Grand Harvest, or something similar to Grand Harvest. The economy of Rohan needs to be looked at too. I would like to here if there is support for this idea, or if you think there is a better way to do improve the Economy.

- Don't get us wrong. Buffing Cav per se ain't bad. But buffing Cav against their NR.1 counter is another thing...I gave you guys many different solutions to this topic (see above). But I just won't understand why you persist on the point, that Buffing Standard Cav against pikes is "such a great solution".I don't think that Rohan is the only faction, that needs a mix of units to win. It's just a bit blurry, because every faction reacts with counters. So when Rohan goes for Riders, the enemy has to build pikes (forced adaption which weakens the Infantry strengh). Therefore the Rohan player has to do the next counter step and so on and on and on... (I really don't think that you will see a Gondor player doing only Swordsmen (no Mix), while Rohan players goes strong on Riders.

P.S.: Were my suggestions REALLY so useless? Think about it...

The only suggestions you have posted so far is to increase the strength of Rohirrim Archers and Spear Throwers, both of which I agree with. Additionally, if you look back at my very first post, the only things I was asking for were buffs to their survivability, not their damage, purely so that they don't die instantly like they currently do, and to help them trample for longer periods of time before getting stuck. That's all the idea was, yet everybody seems to think I was calling to make the cavalry unkillable death machines. This is not the case. If the Royal Breeding power gave them more health and defense against pikes, they would then be able to actually deal damage to a mass of pikes, unlike currently where they just die uselessly. You would still take losses, but you could actually inflict casualties too. That was the whole point of my idea.

Additionally, your not getting the main point of this discussion either. The point is that due to the weakness of Rohans infantry, pike spam is a surefire counter against anything that they can field. You literally cannot defeat Gondor, Isengard or Dwarves if they spam pikes and pop some archers in the middle. Dwarves of course have veterans too. That's why the call for buffing cavalry is so prominent, because the enemy always spams pikes REGARDLESS of what you make, they do not need to "counter" you, because you can't kill them anyways!

Yes Haman, your right of course, the economy is another big factor which should be looked at. I still agree with the upgrade discount from having multiple armories, and I also agree with giving Rohan some kind of economic upgrade.

So I will just jump in and say I'd really like to see Rohan buffed in a lot of ways.

1.I have no idea about this one but maybe the team can answer it? My suggestion is that if the charge of cavalry is different at all between all the faction I suggest that the normal Rohirrim(ones with spear) have a significantly higher charge then say Eastfold Rohirrim or Gondor knights because they have something to charge with instead of just a melee weapon maybe this buff could also be applied to Royal Guard and Swan Knights as well because they also have a charging weapon. I think the normal Rohhirrim need a buff because at the moment there is no point in getting them because from what I can tell Eastfold Rohhirrm have the same charge and a formation that is just far more useful and they cost the exact same so why would you ever buy normal Rohhirrim?

2. I completely agree that Rohan needs eco buffs because they currently only have eco boost so to speak and that's theo's taxes. Although that is very helpful EG it's not fantastic MidG and LG and the farm you use it on has to be a settlement if I am not mistaken so it leaves it vulnerable , so by adding a Grand Harvest variant to Rohan, this would at least give them an eco boost and paired with theo having to be cured wouldn't make it overpowered. Also I think they need more discounts so having multiple armories should give you a discount for upgrades because the armory is also your siege equipment building so it makes sense to get more than one and I think you should receive a bonus for having more than one.

3. I really like the idea of making the Royal Horses (or whatever its called xp) being improved with a buff and adding it to a higher power point value is the right move because at the moment when I get it I don't get really get excited that my cavalry is just a little bit better if they make it to level 3 so right now I find it like a meh power point and should be better imo

I do want to bring up one more point about this thread, which really has to do with the first post. I really like that the original, stats wise, a lot. I don't think that a boost like that will make Riders Unkillable machines that destroy everything. It's really all that the cavalry need.

My major problem with it is that it is a Spellbook Power. No other faction has any sort of Unit stat increases inside their Spellbook. The Power you are suggesting would make players have to get this power in order to have a powerful late game, something I can't get behind because of how far it is down the Spellbook, pretty much railroading players. No faction's main gameplay mechanics require a Spellbook power in order to win, and by the sound of this power, that's what it is turning into. It would pretty much make player go for the power because if they don't, and they lose map control in late game, or never had it to begin with, Rohan loses, without any chance to fight back.

So therefore, I would recommend putting it as an additional perk to Glorious King. Once Theoden is free, the player is able to purchase the upgrade. It could be purchased from the Armoury or Stables, and cost 1500 to for the upgrade to take effect. I don't think that limiting it behind this power would be much of a problem either, because Glorious King is easy to obtain, is something almost anyone buys anyways, and if your freeing Theoden, it is usually not for a peasant army, but a Cavalry army.

Of course, if this happens, there is one free spot in the Rohan Spell Book. Feel free, if u agree with my idea, to leave an idea for a new 2 or 3 point power besides Royal Horses.

Well, this seems a fair proposal to me. I personally would rather have it as a spellbook, considering that its already railroaded anyways because of ents. However, I think that if Rohan can just get something of an economy boost, that it would be fair to have a stronger version Royal Breeding as an upgrade and put a new spellbook power for Rohan. My idea for a new 2 point power(Royal Breeding costs 2 points) would be Gondor Allies, to represent the strong bond between the people of Gondor and Rohan. It could summon some heavy infantry to the field, like a tower guard and a couple of gondor soldiers, to help Rohan hold the line for a little bit early game with some stronger infantry. It wouldn't summon any heroes, just 3 battalions of troops. I think that would fill the void nicely, and would give a decent summon on both sides of the spellbook tree.

I agree with Haman's idea of the upgrade, and overall with the opinions of Kryptic. Buffing Rohan's infantry is no sense for me, mainly for a lore-reason (the only chance when we saw an infantry army of Rohan was at the Black Gate and Helm's Deep, and they're just particular cases. Anywhere in the books you can read that the might of Rohan's armies was its cavalry)

And also, as Kryptic said, the point is not to turn the Rohirrim into unkillable death machines, but to prevent them from miserably die against pikes, because, if I'm not mistaking, Swordsmen don't deal so much damage to Pikes (the unit type they're weak against), and also Archers don't deal so much damage to upgraded Infantry. So why should cavalry die so ridiculously against Pikes (especially Rohan's one, which is the most powerful in the whole Middle-Earth?)

I don't really think its fair for any faction to be handicapped at any point of the game, that just makes for boring, "you must win at this point in the game or you lose" matches. All factions should have close to an equal chance at all stages in the game.

I completely disagree here. As long as there are differences between the factions, it will always mean that some factions are handicapped in different stages at the game - of course this should not mean that a faction has no chance to win at some point of the game, but it can be weaker.

As people are quite often comparing things to Bfme I or Bfme II:In Bfme I Mordor and Isengard were horrible in the EG and bad in MG, but really strong in LG.Rohan had big difficulties against an Isengard army in LG and the only chance to win a direct fight for Rohan were the spells (Army of the dead ftw ).

Rohan was a strong harass faction, they were never meant to have a strong army for a direct fight. Their target was to harass and therefore have a better economy than the enemy. (you can kill some of the small armies with your fast army and you can destroy all the economy buildings easily)

By doing this they can always have a bigger army (or at least more expensive). In a direct fight they could only win because of Theoden's lvl 4 ability (only 10% damage taken for all knights). But as soon as it gets into lategame they always have to play much smarter than other factions in direct fights to win.

It was the same in 3vs3/4vs4:Rohan's goal was NOT to fight the enemy directly... As said Rohan is the harass faction. Rohan's goal was to kill single fleeing units and harass the enemy. By doing this the enemy had less troups and was overall weaker - even though Rohan couldn't fight them alone, their allies were able to build a stronger army and therefore win the fights.So Rohan's work is not done in the big battles, but before it and while big battles somewhere else. That's where and when Rohan can help...

What does this mean for Edain?I don't say that Rohan is perfectly balanced atm.^^ All I want to say is that imo it would be very boring if every faction would be equal in strength in direct battles. Not every faction should be played exactly equal (with equal I don't mean building the same units - but having the same strategy, just with different units). Of course Rohan should still be strong in LG, but they should not win a battle against Isengard/Mordor, if both player's just AA the enemy army, as Rohan's strength lies somewhere different.