I agree with TFA, but I also don't know how fair it is to blame Detroit's collapse on bad city governance. While its true that Detroit's city governance seems terrible (I have no real knowledge of the subject, so I can't claim to have any particular insight), it seems Detroit was just farked by a demographic death spiral that no one could possible have governed their way out of.

DamnYankees:I agree with TFA, but I also don't know how fair it is to blame Detroit's collapse on bad city governance. While its true that Detroit's city governance seems terrible (I have no real knowledge of the subject, so I can't claim to have any particular insight), it seems Detroit was just farked by a demographic death spiral that no one could possible have governed their way out of.

I don't necessarily disagree but there was an opportunity before the collapse to diversify the city's economy so that it was less reliant on the auto industry. So the real lesson of Detroit is not to let your economy become too reliant on any one industry.

Voiceofreason01:I don't necessarily disagree but there was an opportunity before the collapse to diversify the city's economy so that it was less reliant on the auto industry. So the real lesson of Detroit is not to let your economy become too reliant on any one industry.

To compound the problem, the industry in question was labor intensive and workers didn't need much more than a high school education. So, not only did you have the loss of jobs from foreign competition, you had a loss of jobs from technology, both with no jobs to replace them.

As someone who has been working for a long time to right another, smaller rust belt city, I can say that there's no easy solution. Pittsburgh suffered for 20 years after the collapse of Steel before it was able to start getting back on its feet, but we'll never be the surging metropolis we once were.

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat:Voiceofreason01: I don't necessarily disagree but there was an opportunity before the collapse to diversify the city's economy so that it was less reliant on the auto industry. So the real lesson of Detroit is not to let your economy become too reliant on any one industry.

To compound the problem, the industry in question was labor intensive and workers didn't need much more than a high school education. So, not only did you have the loss of jobs from foreign competition, you had a loss of jobs from technology, both with no jobs to replace them.

As someone who has been working for a long time to right another, smaller rust belt city, I can say that there's no easy solution. Pittsburgh suffered for 20 years after the collapse of Steel before it was able to start getting back on its feet, but we'll never be the surging metropolis we once were.

Detroit got spoiled. Everyone, the line workers making $30 an hour to turn wrenches, the executives that made shiat cars, and the corrupt and incompetent politicians that the city had for decades, thought that the rules don't apply to them. People will always buy American cars. My job that some foreign person is willing to do for pennies is always going to be here for me paying $30 an hour. We'll always have a tax base. GM has gotten better, both on the labor side and with management (they're producing better cars and start at a reasonable $12 an hour). But it was too late, and GM isn't going to save Detroit. There's too much wrong with the city.

And that helped fark Detroit. You can't have a functional economy unless people have money to spend. Also it's insultingly low compared to what workers in Japan, Germany, England etc make. Also labor costs aren't even the biggest cost of a car in the first place.

Fark It:Detroit got spoiled. Everyone, the line workers making $30 an hour to turn wrenches, the executives that made shiat cars, and the corrupt and incompetent politicians that the city had for decades, thought that the rules don't apply to them. People will always buy American cars. My job that some foreign person is willing to do for pennies is always going to be here for me paying $30 an hour. We'll always have a tax base. GM has gotten better, both on the labor side and with management (they're producing better cars and start at a reasonable $12 an hour). But it was too late, and GM isn't going to save Detroit. There's too much wrong with the city.

Greed, selfishness, and a lack of prescience are what did Detroit in.

/hurr it's the unions//hurr it's the management

$12/hour is too low for an assembly line worker. The City's problem is that their population has fallen by two-thirds from it's height and the tax base by even more and even if the car industry was producing at the level it was at it's peak, efficiency and automation would mean that there still wouldn't be any way to get all those jobs back.

Voiceofreason01:The City's problem is that their population has fallen by two-thirds from it's height and the tax base by even more and even if the car industry was producing at the level it was at it's peak, efficiency and automation would mean that there still wouldn't be any way to get all those jobs back.

Exactly. It's a city built for 2M people, currently occupied by 700K. It was based on an industry that used to need 2M people to support it, but now apparently needs 700K.* Once those high paying/low education jobs were lost, people started looking elsewhere for work. When those people left, the supporting industries also closed up shop. It's a vicious cycle that will probably take 30 years to turn around.

Voiceofreason01:Fark It:Detroit got spoiled. Everyone, the line workers making $30 an hour to turn wrenches, the executives that made shiat cars, and the corrupt and incompetent politicians that the city had for decades, thought that the rules don't apply to them. People will always buy American cars. My job that some foreign person is willing to do for pennies is always going to be here for me paying $30 an hour. We'll always have a tax base. GM has gotten better, both on the labor side and with management (they're producing better cars and start at a reasonable $12 an hour). But it was too late, and GM isn't going to save Detroit. There's too much wrong with the city.

Greed, selfishness, and a lack of prescience are what did Detroit in.

/hurr it's the unions//hurr it's the management

$12/hour is too low for an assembly line worker. The City's problem is that their population has fallen by two-thirds from it's height and the tax base by even more and even if the car industry was producing at the level it was at it's peak, efficiency and automation would mean that there still wouldn't be any way to get all those jobs back.

Assembly line workers should not look at their job as a career. They shouldn't be able to support a family and second vacation homes (like the auto workers used to afford). They should be looked at as stepping stone jobs for the youth that are just entering the job market.. if anything their pay should provide benefits to get the people back in school to better themselves... we will always have entry level labor to fill the jobs.

But even the above isn't going to work as most of those jobs will be replaced by robots in the near future... maybe send them to robot repair school?

It behoves this country to provide an upwardly mobile path for every job... better jobs = better salaries = more taxes paid = better government services and so on.

Voiceofreason01:DamnYankees: I agree with TFA, but I also don't know how fair it is to blame Detroit's collapse on bad city governance. While its true that Detroit's city governance seems terrible (I have no real knowledge of the subject, so I can't claim to have any particular insight), it seems Detroit was just farked by a demographic death spiral that no one could possible have governed their way out of.

I don't necessarily disagree but there was an opportunity before the collapse to diversify the city's economy so that it was less reliant on the auto industry. So the real lesson of Detroit is not to let your economy become too reliant on any one industry.

In my area the core city, Boston, is small enough that there is competition between city and suburbs as well as among suburbs. Unless you're poor and black. Then you're stuck.

We have gone the nonpartisan route for municipal elections. That is a good choice. There is some contamination from state and national politics. The mayor wants to run for Senate so he has to prove some D cred. City councilor wants to run for state representative so she starts babbling whatever her wing of the party says. But most of local politics is about local issues. I'm not sure the locals are any worse than the state legislature when it comes to stealing from the future to please the present.

dwrash:Assembly line workers should not look at their job as a career. They shouldn't be able to support a family and second vacation homes (like the auto workers used to afford). They should be looked at as stepping stone jobs for the youth that are just entering the job market.. if anything their pay should provide benefits to get the people back in school to better themselves... we will always have entry level labor to fill the jobs.

But even the above isn't going to work as most of those jobs will be replaced by robots in the near future... maybe send them to robot repair school?

It behoves this country to provide an upwardly mobile path for every job... better jobs = better salaries = more taxes paid = better government services and so on.

The problem with that logic is that there are only so many upwardly mobile type jobs available and a lot of assembly line work that still needs to be done. How exactly do you propose that all positions provide an upwardly mobile path?

Personally, moderate R governor plus moderate D legislature is the best way to go.

Moderate R governor keeps the crazy spending in control as well as being sane(r) on social justice, while moderate D legislature doesn't pull crazy stunts re: abortion, church, school prayer, gay marriage, creationism, etc, etc and is able to prevent massive tax cuts from defunding everything.

WhyteRaven74:And that helped fark Detroit. You can't have a functional economy unless people have money to spend.

And you cant give out inflated wages if people arent buying your cars because they choose competitor cars which are made better and last longer. That "Money to spend" doesn't get pulled out of a unicorn's ass. It comes from consumers, who are willing to pay for a product.

I realize more and more everyday that you have no idea what a job is or how it works. I suppose in vain one day you'll get it.

llortcM_yllort:Voiceofreason01: DamnYankees: I agree with TFA, but I also don't know how fair it is to blame Detroit's collapse on bad city governance. While its true that Detroit's city governance seems terrible (I have no real knowledge of the subject, so I can't claim to have any particular insight), it seems Detroit was just farked by a demographic death spiral that no one could possible have governed their way out of.

I don't necessarily disagree but there was an opportunity before the collapse to diversify the city's economy so that it was less reliant on the auto industry. So the real lesson of Detroit is not to let your economy become too reliant on any one industry.

Hi San Jose!

The need for technology might last a little longer than American automobiles.

But if we do decide to revert to an analog/steam/stone age civilization I guess the myriad of tech startup workers in San Jose are out of a job.

Esc7:llortcM_yllort: Voiceofreason01: DamnYankees: I agree with TFA, but I also don't know how fair it is to blame Detroit's collapse on bad city governance. While its true that Detroit's city governance seems terrible (I have no real knowledge of the subject, so I can't claim to have any particular insight), it seems Detroit was just farked by a demographic death spiral that no one could possible have governed their way out of.

I don't necessarily disagree but there was an opportunity before the collapse to diversify the city's economy so that it was less reliant on the auto industry. So the real lesson of Detroit is not to let your economy become too reliant on any one industry.

Hi San Jose!

The need for technology might last a little longer than American automobiles.

But if we do decide to revert to an analog/steam/stone age civilization I guess the myriad of tech startup workers in San Jose are out of a job.

So the only thing San Jose really has to worry about are rightists.

(Okay, fine, primmies too, but there's only three of them and they're all trying to figure out ways to make vegan nutloaf without electricity)

DamnYankees:I agree with TFA, but I also don't know how fair it is to blame Detroit's collapse on bad city governance. While its true that Detroit's city governance seems terrible (I have no real knowledge of the subject, so I can't claim to have any particular insight), it seems Detroit was just farked by a demographic death spiral that no one could possible have governed their way out of.

Precisely. The city's population peaked in 1950, and it was the Big Four moving jobs out of the city that led directly to an implosion of its finances. No mayor or city government could have turned it around after losing more than half its population. Three Republican Mayors in a row gave it their best shot after Detroit started losing population, but they, as well as the Democrats who followed them were on the losing side of that tussle.

dwrash:Assembly line workers should not look at their job as a career. They shouldn't be able to support a family and second vacation homes (like the auto workers used to afford). They should be looked at as stepping stone jobs for the youth that are just entering the job market.. if anything their pay should provide benefits to get the people back in school to better themselves... we will always have entry level labor to fill the jobs.

That's bullshiat. Just because someone could easily be replaced or doesn't have the market power to force you to pay them more does not mean that it's OK to take advantage of them. The fact is that there are a lot of people who will never have any real opportunities to move on to these "higher earning jobs" that you seem to think just appear out of nowhere and who have little access to the education necessary to even apply to those types of jobs. More than that if you expect high quality products you need to have a well trained, motivated and professional workforce even in relatively menial positions. There isn't any reason that workers on an automotive assembly line cannot and should not be paid a living wage.

Esc7:llortcM_yllort: Voiceofreason01: DamnYankees: I agree with TFA, but I also don't know how fair it is to blame Detroit's collapse on bad city governance. While its true that Detroit's city governance seems terrible (I have no real knowledge of the subject, so I can't claim to have any particular insight), it seems Detroit was just farked by a demographic death spiral that no one could possible have governed their way out of.

I don't necessarily disagree but there was an opportunity before the collapse to diversify the city's economy so that it was less reliant on the auto industry. So the real lesson of Detroit is not to let your economy become too reliant on any one industry.

Hi San Jose!

The need for technology might last a little longer than American automobiles.

But if we do decide to revert to an analog/steam/stone age civilization I guess the myriad of tech startup workers in San Jose are out of a job.

Here's the thing: the Big 3 didn't start to crater because people stopped buying cars. They cratered because people stopped buying cars from them. You don't need to be near the San Francisco Bay to form a tech startup. Then again, maybe the lesson isn't "don't depend on one industry" but rather "don't depend on three companies." In that case, I cede my point and San Jose might not make the best example.

Voiceofreason01:dwrash:Assembly line workers should not look at their job as a career. They shouldn't be able to support a family and second vacation homes (like the auto workers used to afford). They should be looked at as stepping stone jobs for the youth that are just entering the job market.. if anything their pay should provide benefits to get the people back in school to better themselves... we will always have entry level labor to fill the jobs.

That's bullshiat. Just because someone could easily be replaced or doesn't have the market power to force you to pay them more does not mean that it's OK to take advantage of them. The fact is that there are a lot of people who will never have any real opportunities to move on to these "higher earning jobs" that you seem to think just appear out of nowhere and who have little access to the education necessary to even apply to those types of jobs. More than that if you expect high quality products you need to have a well trained, motivated and professional workforce even in relatively menial positions. There isn't any reason that workers on an automotive assembly line cannot and should not be paid a living wage.

I disagree... a living wage is subjective and will end up being whatever the politicians say it is... and a way to purchase votes.

If you are that daft you are stuck on an assembly line for your entire.. that is your choice and you need to deal with the fact that the labors of your work just aren't worth that much to the company.. and you WILL be replaced by a robot at some point... so it is up to YOU to prepare yourself for that eventuality.

Voiceofreason01:That's bullshiat. Just because someone could easily be replaced or doesn't have the market power to force you to pay them more does not mean that it's OK to take advantage of them. The fact is that there are a lot of people who will never have any real opportunities to move on to these "higher earning jobs" that you seem to think just appear out of nowhere and who have little access to the education necessary to even apply to those types of jobs. More than that if you expect high quality products you need to have a well trained, motivated and professional workforce even in relatively menial positions. There isn't any reason that workers on an automotive assembly line cannot and should not be paid a living wage.

More to the point, it's not a remotely honest argument anyway; someone needs to be doing those jobs, and the capitalist system is built in such a way as to devalue the most important work. If every single person working auto assembly and the like got degrees in software engineering, guess what? They'd pay software engineers the same as auto assembly workers and dishonest people like dwrash would be saying we shouldn't expect any quality of life because it's "not a career". It's all a farking shell game; every working person deserves a living wage regardless.

DamnYankees:I agree with TFA, but I also don't know how fair it is to blame Detroit's collapse on bad city governance. While its true that Detroit's city governance seems terrible (I have no real knowledge of the subject, so I can't claim to have any particular insight), it seems Detroit was just farked by a demographic death spiral that no one could possible have governed their way out of.

If governments had the ability to ever shrink, this wouldn't normally be a problem. Likewise if pensions and liabilities were funded correctly and not based on overly optimistic projections, this would not be a problem.

The issue is directly due to bad governance. Promises to retirees (% of salary, years to vest, retirement age) were never properly funded. This is true of almost every big city and large state. Ask any actuary or accountant and they will tell you how laughable government finances are kept. Tricks that would often be illegal in non-public entities.

There is also the issue that cities can never drop in size. This can be seen at all levels of government, where baseline projections always assume growth. School districts are classic in this regards. School district I reside in continues to project cost growth even though number of students has been declining for 14 years.

Voiceofreason01:dwrash:Assembly line workers should not look at their job as a career. They shouldn't be able to support a family and second vacation homes (like the auto workers used to afford). They should be looked at as stepping stone jobs for the youth that are just entering the job market.. if anything their pay should provide benefits to get the people back in school to better themselves... we will always have entry level labor to fill the jobs.

That's bullshiat. Just because someone could easily be replaced or doesn't have the market power to force you to pay them more does not mean that it's OK to take advantage of them. The fact is that there are a lot of people who will never have any real opportunities to move on to these "higher earning jobs" that you seem to think just appear out of nowhere and who have little access to the education necessary to even apply to those types of jobs. More than that if you expect high quality products you need to have a well trained, motivated and professional workforce even in relatively menial positions. There isn't any reason that workers on an automotive assembly line cannot and should not be paid a living wage.

dwrash doesn't want to be an assembly line worker. Therefore assembly line workers shouldn't be paid much. At least, that's how I'm reading this.

/upward mobility is, in many cases, a scam. Convince people there's a better future if they just suffer now.

llortcM_yllort:dwrash: Assembly line workers should not look at their job as a career. They shouldn't be able to support a family and second vacation homes (like the auto workers used to afford). They should be looked at as stepping stone jobs for the youth that are just entering the job market.. if anything their pay should provide benefits to get the people back in school to better themselves... we will always have entry level labor to fill the jobs.

But even the above isn't going to work as most of those jobs will be replaced by robots in the near future... maybe send them to robot repair school?

It behoves this country to provide an upwardly mobile path for every job... better jobs = better salaries = more taxes paid = better government services and so on.

The problem with that logic is that there are only so many upwardly mobile type jobs available and a lot of assembly line work that still needs to be done. How exactly do you propose that all positions provide an upwardly mobile path?

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat:Voiceofreason01: The City's problem is that their population has fallen by two-thirds from it's height and the tax base by even more and even if the car industry was producing at the level it was at it's peak, efficiency and automation would mean that there still wouldn't be any way to get all those jobs back.

Exactly. It's a city built for 2M people, currently occupied by 700K. It was based on an industry that used to need 2M people to support it, but now apparently needs 700K.* Once those high paying/low education jobs were lost, people started looking elsewhere for work. When those people left, the supporting industries also closed up shop. It's a vicious cycle that will probably take 30 years to turn around.

*A little hyperbole, but you know what I'm getting at.

Did the city government ever sell off excess office space when the population dropped? Did the number of employees ever decrease? There are ways to deal with declining populations. Governments just seem to have no clue on how to handle it.

dwrash:I disagree... a living wage is subjective and will end up being whatever the politicians say it is... and a way to purchase votes.

If you are that daft you are stuck on an assembly line for your entire.. that is your choice and you need to deal with the fact that the labors of your work just aren't worth that much to the company.. and you WILL be replaced by a robot at some point... so it is up to YOU to prepare yourself for that eventuality.

A living wage is MUCH more than a political talking point and there are a lot of people who are stuck in dead end, low wage jobs. Often these people are poor and/or living in depressed areas and have few opportunities for education and have no money to leave and in places like Detroit there are no better jobs to move up to. The kind of upward mobility you're describing is the exception and not the rule, at least in the United States.

DamnYankees:I agree with TFA, but I also don't know how fair it is to blame Detroit's collapse on bad city governance. While its true that Detroit's city governance seems terrible (I have no real knowledge of the subject, so I can't claim to have any particular insight), it seems Detroit was just farked by a demographic death spiral that no one could possible have governed their way out of.

The city water department was required to keep a horse shoe fitter on payroll.

It was pretty much ruined by corruption, unions, and the inability to use growth to support the shiat hole.