Yes, we must proceed forward in our kenotic mission, continually extending our hand in Christian charity, even if the response is a clenched fist. Patriach Lubomyr I believe has the vision and the historical background to understand the Kyivan church and we must always pray that we have the charity and mercy...

ALiy, yet another good point about Metropolitan Sheptytsky's issues with the Russians. But he never lost sight of the fact that the Russians were historically descended from the Kyivan Church and therefore he never abandoned them...That was a motivation for Metropolitan Sheptysky to expend so much effort on the fledgling Russian Catholic Church supporting Frs. Tolstoy, Fedorov, Deubner, and Susalev (who was an Old Believer priest who came into the Greek Catholic Church and continued to use the Old Ritual), Korolevsky and others...often in spite of absolutely impossible circumstances... the Russian Catholic Church is worthy of a whole different discussion sometime. Through the prayers of the Servant of God Andrey Sheptytsky, O Lord have mercy on us.Subdeacon Randolph, a sinner

As for the historical perspective, we must also realize that what is known as "Ukraine" in recent history, was actually "Rus'" or "Kyivan Rus'" previously.

It was only with Peter I that the term for today's Russians "Muscovy" and "Muscovite," were dropped and "Rus'" and "Russian" were adopted.

In fact, it was Peter I's Ukrainian advisers who convinced him to adopt "Rus'" and so Peter ordered all his embassies to declare themselves "Russians" and to ask that the western European powers, including the Vatican, cease calling them Muscovites.

Once the name was changed, the historical record was effectively taken over as well.

Taras Shevchenko in his poem "Velykyj Loch" blamed the Ukrainians themselves for their own woes.

Yes, the Russians attacked that church in Poltava - but where was the Ukrainian police and other authorities? They looked on without doing anything.

And who do we blame for the fact of our own internal divisions? Poland basically has one Church, and Russia has one.

We continue to live out the historical ecclesial divisions that were forced on our ancestors.

I don't have an answer. But what happened in history still continues to "beat us" today.

In actual fact, historical research today seems to be indicating that Andrew Boholiubsky was no where near Kyiv at the time he was said to have been sacking it.

And according to Met. Ilarion Ohienko, Kyiv was done in through "brotherly warfare" by a group of Ukrainian princes from the west who attacked Kyiv as a result of administrative jealousy, very much in the tradition of warfare among city-states (see Ohienko's "Canonization of Saints in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church").

Andrew Boholiubsky is also included in the calendar of Saints of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church as a saint of northern Kyivan Rus'!

That he took the Vladimir Icon of the Mother of God is a fact. That he took it from Vyshorod to try and protect it against destruction by the ongoing attacks on Kyiv is another.

The most ancient Chronicles relate Andrew's deep piety, especially toward the Mother of God, his visions of Her etc.

The Ukrainian Orthodox at least never saw in him an enemy, but a pious ruler of Kyivan Rus'.

I know this goes against so much of what we have come to believe about him, but there we have it.

Alex, I've seen too much research the other way on Prince Bogolybsky...we'll have to agree to disagree, although to a certain extent I might agree that the jury is out as many of the chronicle fragments are either missing or contradictory.

I think that the sack of Kyiv attributed to Bogolybsky is the beginning of the pattern of behavior which was a concerted effort to deprive Kyiv of its rightful place civilly and ecclesiastically.

I don't buy the removal of the Vyshorodska Bozhamati as a protective measure, either. It was a spitirual treasure par excellence of Kyivan Rus, very deeply venerated by the Kyivan faithful, a very important religious symbol of her identity, and its removal to Vladimir and eventually Moscow is iconic (no pun intended) of the attempt to remove the genuine spiritual and ecclesiological patrimony of the Kyivan Church.

It was stolen, the church sacked, the icon taken to Vladimir. By Christians. The desire of the Muscovite principality (including Suzdal and Vladimir) to usurp the power and rightful patrimony of Kyiv happened way before Peter I.

This is a sad development. It proves that Greater Russianism is alive and well, and breathes in the Church. Yet at the same time, I must confess how fascinated I am by the commentary of ALity, Diak, Alex, and ukrainiancatholic.

I will confess my ignorance as a foreigner who used to credit Kyiv monastic accomplishments to the Russians until I read some of your contributions. Worse still, is that it is the present Capital City of Ukraine and there I was crediting it to the Russians. I have the bad habit of concentrating on the history of Russia from 1905 to about 1927. Prompted by some of your comments I pulled some books (dealing with older themes) off my shelf and boy do I feel ignorant as can be. I am astounded that Ukrainians can arrogantly be written out of history by Russians as in that article posted by ALity. I guess His-story vs. History affects more people than my own. I promise to use my free time this summer to read more on the Ukrainian History as opposed to the Muscovite His-Story.

It double saddens me that, as ALity pointed out, quick fix Pentecostal hucksters are coming in to scavenge souls in peoples time of weakness and stress. But it does not worry me, with the arsenal of Kyiv as a background I don't see that trendy pente move going anywhere except out of style. But ALity I am confused on one point, how is it that you think that going &#8220;English&#8221; will change this? If experience elsewhere can be generalized (and it usually can) then many Ukrainians protestants are already plugged into English. They should have gotten "scholarships' and are taking "telenet' courses or pre-tapped courses by some Protestant educational institution right here in America! Considering that Americanization tends to spoil whatever it Americanizes (Tacos and Italian food for instance ) why not try something new and have Americans emerge from their mono-lingual ignorance and learn another language?

But the point of inspiration in all of your posts comes from the fact that in spite of this treatment and persecution by the Russians you are 1) not generalizing them all and 2) still praying for them that these problems can be overcome. All liturgy and schematics aside, that is my definition of a Christian.

That the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ&#8212;I Peter 1:7

St Andrew Boholiubsky is, as we know, honoured as a Ukrainian saint by the Ukrainian Orthodox - and others.

That he was of the Kyivan Royal line is something about which there can be no doubt. Princes do make wars, as did St Volodymyr and others who are also raised to the altars.

So we are faced with a dual tradition here. One of these is a religious tradition that sees Andrew as a spiritual Prince operating from good motives.

Again, and as you say, the jury is out. Ukrainian Catholics are normally biased against him, no matter what. I know I was and, to a great extent, I'm still not crazy about him.

That doesn't mean that others cannot venerate him for valid spiritual and historical reasons and that we shouldn't respect that.

Andrew was the one who finally got Constantinople to canonize Sts. Volodymyr and Olha as saints, something New Rome was dragging its feet on. The feast of August 1/14 of the Merciful Saviour and the Mother of God was actually ordered by him, and it was he who established the feast of the Protection throughout Rus'.

We are used to seeing things in terms of nation-states today.

I don't know (and again, "don't know") if we can apply that same paradigm to Andrew's taking of the icon of Vyshorod to Vladimir.

Then the entire area was one big Rus'. Andrew considered himself as much a part of a still homogeneous Rus' cultural identity as did everyone else, including the Kyivans.

The Kyivans also were not angels. For example, St Ihor Olhovych was ill-treated at their hands and killed within the city, even though later the same Kyivan Church glorified him a saint.

Certainly, the Vladimir/Vyshorod Icon of the Mother of God later became a national patron of Muscovite Rus' and became, for all intents and purposes, a "Russian Icon" even though it was formerly the holiest Shrine of Kyiv before which even pagan Kyivan princes prayed (e.g. Ihor, husband of St Olha on his return from imprisonment by the Polovtsi).

The Black Madonna of Czestochowa was similarly enshrined in Kyiv and was later brought to Belz near the border with Poland.

Vladislav Opolskie took that icon to Czestochowa, as we know.

In the 15th century, the Orthodox Ukrainian Prince St. Theodore Ostrozhky, while on a peace mission in Poland, saw the icon and immediately proceeded to try and take it off the wall.

He was arrested and tried for "blasphemy" by the Poles.

During his trial, he said that the icon was from Rus' and he was only trying to reclaim it to take it home.

The icon of Mariapoch in St Stefan's Kirche in Vienna is a similar case and there are other icons of Kyivan Rus' that have met a similar fate.

Some have said that the removal of the people's icons and shrines to a foreign land, usually the land of the oppressing country, was a way to subdue the oppressed people, as they had to go on pilgrimage to their icons in the foreign lands.

And because the icon was in the land of the oppressor, somehow, in the people's consciousness, the enemy state became less of an enemy.

So political motives dominate throughout, to be sure.

I'm just not so sure about the motives of St Andrew Boholiubsky at a time when Rus' was united and the Russian/Ukrainian situation had not yet arisen.

At the present, there will be two histories of the relations between Ukraine and Russia, written by historians of both nations.

The two histories won't be exactly unbiased. The Russians will continue to submit that their view is the "objective" one, and the Ukrainians will contine to cry "foul" over Russian imperialism, by both Church and State, for several hundred years.

If Ukrainians can defend their own history and institutions from Russian influence and control, while, at the same time, appreciating and respecting their neighbours within the context of Christian love, and vice-versa, we will all be way ahead of the game.

LVIV, UKRAINE, Apr 27, 02 (RISU.org.ua) &#8211; According to a press release of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate (UOC-KP), a group of construction workers were attacked in their dormitory the night of 14 April 2002 in the village of Blahodatne, Amvrosiivskyi district, Donetsk region (eastern Ukraine). The workers are involved in building the local church of the Ascension (UOC-KP). In a press release dated 19 April, the UOC-KP accuses the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) of organizing the attack. The UOC-MP press service, in response, calls the UOC-KP press release &#8220;a lie.&#8221;

A group armed with wooden sticks and metal pipes broke into the dormitory in Blahodatne and beat the construction workers, threatening worse if the workers did not leave the village. Blahodatne is the birthplace of Patriarch Filaret, head of the UOC-KP.

A few months previously, the local UOC-MP priest had threatened the UOC-KP faithful and construction workers. The UOC-KP press service, consequently, calls the events which occurred in Blahodatne &#8220; a planned action, organized by the local criminal element and the clergy of the UOC-MP.&#8221; The UOC-KP has asked the civil authorities and the police to protect their faithful from &#8220; violence on the part of the UOC-MP.&#8221;

Y. Doroshenko, adviser to the head of the UOC-KP, reported that the Moscow Patriarchate has recently conducted a number of attacks against the Kyivan Patriarchate. He says, &#8220;if the aggressiveness of the UOC-MP is convulsions before death, that is one matter. But, if this is part of a general strategic plan that has been conceived in the heads of foreign politicians, then the Ukrainian citizenry should take a careful look at these events and pay attention to who is playing what role in this game.&#8221;

The UOC-MP press service responded that this announcement of the UOC-KP is &#8220;yet another lie and fabrication of the Filaretites&#8230; Don't take offense at their religious convictions and interdenominational disputes, which Filaret and his pseudochurch are constantly provoking. This is the legal right of any territorial community in Ukraine. The residents of Blahodatne were simply exercising this right.&#8221;

Here is another recent incedent, although a month older in the birthplace of Patriarch Filaret. The responses of the UOC-MP are interesting considering the use of words and their emotive aspect of the response.

Any true believing Russian Orthodox Christian should be ashamed of their Church and publically condemn their leaders.

Originally posted by Aklie Semaet:In the name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. One God, Amen.

But ALity I am confused on one point, how is it that you think that going &#8220;English&#8221; will change this? If experience elsewhere can be generalized (and it usually can) then many Ukrainians protestants are already plugged into English. They should have gotten "scholarships' and are taking "telenet' courses or pre-tapped courses by some Protestant educational institution right here in America! Considering that Americanization tends to spoil whatever it Americanizes (Tacos and Italian food for instance ) why not try something new and have Americans emerge from their mono-lingual ignorance and learn another language?

Aklie Semaet

[ 06-04-2002: Message edited by: Aklie Semaet ]

Alkie -

This was more a message to uc, whom I have dome longstanding discussions with about the nature of the Church.

I am sure you are aware of nationalism vs. Chritianity in the East . . . you could'nt be an Eastern Christian without it.

As a part of the Catolic Church, we are called to evangelize all nations, not just Ukrainians. This is a mandate from our Lord Jesus Christ!In the USA, that would mean that while continuing to serve Ukrainian immigrants, the Church, in MHO, should focus it's liturgical life in the English Language and seek to convert Americans, from all nations, who find the Kyivan spiirituality speaking to their soul.

This actually has a desirable consequence for Ukrainians who put their nationality above their faith. Especially concerning this forum: It means that if our church was to begin a successful evangelization effort, converts would learn the history of the Kyivan Church, gradually, from the Ukrainian perspective. This would do more good for the advance of secular Ukrainian interests than anything else! And, it would more fittingly be a blessing for doing the truly right thing first, spreading the gospel.

The Russian viewpoint is generally accepted to the west, because it was propagandized to the west. By doing the right thing, preaching the gospel, in our tradition, there is a corollary benefit. And that benefit is that converts will learn "Kyiv-ite" interpretation of Kyivan Rus'.

One need only look at the historical perspective of Kiev, by the American OCA, which propagates the Russian version of Kievan-Rus.

Alas, as Alex and Taras Shevchenko spoke before him, and myself, Ukrainians are the reason for much of their woes. Our inward pride and utter dysfunctional ability to be divided and unable to work together for our common good, is the mark of a defeated and conquered people. The hope of our Church, and extension culture, are in it's leaders and faithful from the West, who are able to provide for themselves and learn the truth of their patrimony. Looking at Ukraine, our Patriarch, is (was) and American and grew up in the west and the head of perhaps the most promising organization in Ukraine, the LTA is headed and was resurrected by an American priest, Fr. Borys Gudziak. There were many in our church who felt such an organization would lead people away from the faith and did not want to support it in it's early stages (1992). So, although long winded as I am, I think I was able to explain my statments.

Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:The icon of Mariapoch in St Stefan's Kirche in Vienna is a similar case and there are other icons of Kyivan Rus' that have met a similar fate.

Dear Alex,Pardon me if I've misunderstood you, but if not, I must take issue with your apparent assertion that the Marijapovch Mother of God has any connection to Kyivan Rus'.

It originated in the plains of northeastern Hungary, in a magyarized Rusyn village that is today still within the borders of Hungary. Even if one considers that this area was loosely (but not territorially) part of Subcarpathian Rus', that area since the 17th-century time of the icon's creation has had no relationship -- political or otherwise -- with Kyivan Rus'. Even the claims of Subcarpathian Rus's historical political ties with Kyivan Rus' are dubious.

"This was more a message to uc, whom I have dome longstanding discussions with about the nature of the Church."

As always you catch me hook, line, and sinker. Thanks to you ALity and along with others you are slowly changing my stubborn views.

"I am sure you are aware of nationalism vs. Chritianity in the East . . . you could'nt be an Eastern Christian without it. "

But this is sometimes a big drawer of converts. I know of people who attend Russian or Greek or Slavic or Irish ethnic churches who really are attracted by the culture and their form of worship.

"As a part of the Catolic Church, we are called to evangelize all nations, not just Ukrainians."

My theory is we need to claim back all of the baby boomers and people of my parents generation back. In most Ukrainian churches you will see 80% elderly, and a few families with small kids. Very very few in between. So lets reclaim that boomer generation. I know of over 15 Ukrainian Catholics that go to the RC church by my house. I am sure we could have at least 2 or 3 more parishes here in San Diego if all the cradles were active. So lets evangilize our once own first.

"This actually has a desirable consequence for Ukrainians who put their nationality above their faith. "

Well thats why halls are social clubs most of the time. We have people who come for the last 10 minutes of Liturgy, and then stay in the hall for an hour or two.

"Especially concerning this forum: It means that if our church was to begin a successful evangelization effort, converts would learn the history of the Kyivan Church, gradually, from the Ukrainian perspective. This would do more good for the advance of secular Ukrainian interests than anything else! And, it would more fittingly be a blessing for doing the truly right thing first, spreading the gospel."

Good point. Amen.

"The Russian viewpoint is generally accepted to the west, because it was propagandized to the west. By doing the right thing, preaching the gospel, in our tradition, there is a corollary benefit. And that benefit is that converts will learn "Kyiv-ite" interpretation of Kyivan Rus'."

Amen again.

"One need only look at the historical perspective of Kiev, by the American OCA, which propagates the Russian version of Kievan-Rus. "

For example, the Holy Icon of our Lady of "Pochaev" was in the U.S. for Memorial Day.

"Alas, as Alex and Taras Shevchenko spoke before him, and myself, Ukrainians are the reason for much of their woes. "

"Our inward pride and utter dysfunctional ability to be divided and unable to work together for our common good, is the mark of a defeated and conquered people. The hope of our Church, and extension culture, are in it's leaders and faithful from the West, who are able to provide for themselves and learn the truth of their patrimony. Looking at Ukraine, our Patriarch, is (was) and American and grew up in the west and the head of perhaps the most promising organization in Ukraine, the LTA is headed and was resurrected by an American priest, Fr. Borys Gudziak. There were many in our church who felt such an organization would lead people away from the faith and did not want to support it in it's early stages (1992). So, although long winded as I am." "I think I was able to explain my statments."

Aklie, thanks for your kind words. We Ukies love to talk about what was, might of been, could of been, should of been...

There is an old saying in Ukrainian that when you have two Ukrainians, you have three opinions. But when you have three Ukrainians, you have a new choir

Aklie, which Ethiopian church do you belong to and who is your current Abuna? I raise sheep for a hobby and all of my lamb customers are the Ethiopian Orthodox community in Kansas City...they say it is hard to get good lamb, and they have been coming to me for years. Slaughtering time has become a great tradition between my family and the Ethiopian community. I am so impressed by the deep connection with the Semitic traditions that the Ethiopians have maintained.

Me and my family have become great friends with them. And hands down, Sidamo and Yrgacheffe coffee is proof of the existence of God. I live misir watt, injeera and quanta ferfer, with lots of berbere...better stop, I'm torturing myself.Take care and God blessSubdeacon Randolph, a sinner

ALity, some good points. Borys Gudziak has been a shot in the arm for the LTA, although Father Dimid wasn't too bad, was wonderful spiritually, although I think Fr. Gudziak has the vision to take the LTA to the next step. I had to read his book on the Union of Brest for my diaconal program - if you want some light reading (it's a big book) go for it. Also Hlib Lonchyna, a wonderful Studite from Steubenville, Ohio, is auxiliary of L'Viv. I was hoping we would get him for St. Nicholas in Chicago, but it looks like Patriarch Lubomyr wants to keep him close.

There comes a time when an equation is reduced to an empirical relationship. MP has a need to claim and usurp the patrimony of Kyiv, precisely because Kyiv is where the ecclesiological, liturgical, and theological tradition of MP lies. If MP doesn't control Kyiv, then, it would have to recognize (gasp) that some other Ukrainian ecclesiological entity had ownership and control of the land and place where St. Volodymyr and Olha lived, reigned, and established the Kyivan Church from which the Church of Moscow must historically recognize its origin. This kind of violence perpetrated directly or indirectly by the MP isn't going to stop as long as there is "competition" (as MP sees it) from the KP. I hope and pray when Patriarch Lubomyr moves the Patriarchate to Kyiv we will be spared this kind of behavior.

The Kyivan Tradition is universal. It can be experienced in any language. It is not the ethnic or linguistic property of the Ukrainians. ALity, make sure you visit St. Elias in Brampton, Ontario when you are up that way and you will see that the Kyivan Tradition works beautifully in English as well. I take my family up there and to the Studites in Orangeville (only an hour or so from St. Elias) at least once a year for charging the spiritual batteries.

In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. One God, Amen.

Alex,

Don't worry about Russian historians. Diasporan Ukrainian social scientists that are based in North America should take full advantage of their situation and write books and articles from the different University Presses right here in America and Canada. They should also make trips back home and make educational documentaries (in English, French, etc.) that document and illustrate the true history of Kyiv. Trust me I know from reading the debates against Soviet era archaeologists that Russian myth makers are easy to defeat so long as you stick to the facts.

ALity

There is no DIRECT contradiction between nationalism and Christianity. Nationalism has been present in Christianity from the beginning. Just think about it for a minute, those pious Christians in the Apostolic Church in Jerusalem were also Jews and were not too fond about being ruled by Romans. There were also members of the Zealot organization in the Jerusalem Church (even one of them, Simeon, was a Disciple). This, while at the same time that they were supportive of the evangelization efforts of the gentiles. Not only that, but the Evangelization of the Romans, the very gentiles that oppressed them! But in the end, every nationalism has its inherent flaws and limitations, even its dangers.

There is also nothing inherently negative about reaching out to ones own people before trying to reach out to the rest of the world. The remark of Christ himself to the Greek woman who asked that her daughter be cleansed (Mark 7:25-30) is a case in point. UC said that halls are social clubs most of the time. We have people who come for the last 10 minutes of Liturgy, and then stay in the hall for an hour or two The Hall (among other Ukrainians) seems to be the best place to start this evangelization effort.

Subdeacon Randolph,

Yes, Ethiopians will travel 30 to 50 miles to by freshly (and Christian) slaughtered meat just to eat a burger at McDonalds the next day. Going to the supermarket and buying pre-packaged meat parts in the same way you by spare car parts does not sit well with most. Plus, what if the butcher in the supermarket is a Muslim? You wouldn't want to have to go and confess for that would you? By the way, where did you get the Qwanta (homemade beef jerky)? I hope you hid it in your closet and didn't let anyone know you had some because you will get an unusual amount of guest randomly showing up at your house (quietly expecting to be offered some). You know that is a rare commodity here? I almost got three bags of it here in January but the Customs agent asked me specifically did I have any &#8220;dry meat.&#8221; I tried to, but I could not bring my self to lie and well he seized it complaining that it would bring foot and mouth disease to America (I personally think they are paranoid and over reacting.)

Anyway, I belong to the normal canonical Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church which has its headquarters in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. Our Abune is His Holiness Paulos, Patriarch of Ethiopia and Echegue of the See of St. Tekle Haymanot. Now if the Holy Synod removes him then I will be loyal to whatever new person they install, but I aint breaking communion with no one over politics. Maybe 90% of the Ethiopians you encounter in Texas will be opposed to him (without supporting anyone as an alternative) but if they bring the issue up with YOU ask them what good RELIGIOUS reason is there not to support the present Patriarch? I bet you they will not have one.

Now my question. What is the ethnic make up of these Ukraine Orthodox MP people? Are they not themselves Ukrainian?

But it is a product of East Slavic iconography that is related to Kyivan Christianity loosely defined and not Latin Christianity.

It is also venerated as an Icon of the Kyivan Church and by Ukrainian Catholics especially.

Let's also remember that the cultural and religious influence of Kyivan Rus' is more pervasive than was once thought.

There were very close ties to Hungary between the Kyivan Church, for example. There is at least one known Hungarian Saint of the Kyivan Caves Lavra, St Moses the Hungarian, who was patron of youthful purity for centuries in Ukraine.

The Crown of St Steven is a Byzantine-style Crown with Old Slavonic lettering on it.

There are many other examples along these lines.

Kyivan Rus' was, when everything is said and done, a loose federation of different tribes or Plemya a number of which developed along different cultural lines outside the "mainstream" Kyivan culture.

But the pervasive influence was there and was felt as far west as in Germany, France and England, let alone the Carpathians.

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