In article >, writes:
>Subject: "WE">From: >Date: 16 Feb 1997 20:21:25 GMT>>I couldn't help to be entertained by your exchange with "Mark". Might>I offer some advice to your enlightening manner. Why did you not>write to the more probable concept that "we" referred to the human>race, as opposed to bottom feeders or keyboard hoarding tree dwellers.
That merely serves to heighten the megalomania implicit in the post anyway.
Instead of speaking for a shadowy collective, he now speaks for all mankind?
Except for bottom feeders and keyboard-hoarding tree dwellers. And just who
shall decide who is human and who is a bottom feeder? Do you plan to call them
"garbage?"
>>In addition, your expressed desire to become Sir Sam Stowe will be>inevitably fulfilled upon your meeting the criteria, which would>include indulgence of all views from all who care to debate with you,>along with sharing your abundant intellect in a more civil manner.
Muddled writing strangled in its crib by muddled thinking. And it irks me that
I must spend time whittling down someone so arrogant and cowardly that he or
she can't even post under his or her real name but must use a pseudonym that
unconsciously seeks to summon forth the power he or she craves but will never
hold. And with a forged header, no less. Such impotence is truly pitiable.
Sam Stowe
>>King.
"Nasal phlegm. Some guys may think it's
funny, Mr. Noir, but it's not."
-- The bartender in Guy Noir's office building

At 07:58 PM 2/16/97 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:
>At 06:55 PM 2/16/97 -0500, Barna Bozoki wrote:>>A Request to Gardeners>>>>At this time when the stores are selling the flower seeds I wish I had a>>dictionary which would help me translate flower names. There are flowers>>which I only know by their Hungarian name, others by their common English>>name.> There is one great gardener for you on this list. That is Joe Szalai.>> Good luck at gardening.>
Thanks for your compliment, Eva.
I think Barna's idea is great. However I would suggest people post their
suggestions on this list, or else Barna may be flooded by the same
information over and over again. But it's his call.
By the way, if anyone wants to see my garden, the address is:
http://library.uwaterloo.ca:80/~jgszalai/JOESMAIN.HTM
Once there, just click on garden. The garden is in southwestern Ontario, in
Oxford county, just 100km south-west of Toronto.
Joe Szalai

Darren writes:
>On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, jeliko wrote:>>>> Vol 24, Number 3, Sept 1966 issue of the "Nationalities Papers" a quarterly>> published by the Association for the Study of Nationalities (Ex-USSR and>> Eastern Europe) is titled "Hungary and the Hungarian Minorities" it was>> guest edited by Andrew Ludanyi>> of Ohio Northern University, Ada, OH.>>I assume you meant 1996 instead of 1966 :-) I am glad to see I am not the>only one on this list that has problems typing despite having the class in>high school.
Yes, I meant 1996, and it is probably not the typing skills but the fingers
not listening to the wandering mind.
Regards,Jeliko

>Flower Dictionary (Draft 1997.02.16.)>>?> ? Bu'zavira'g
As far as I know it is in the chicory family (or maybe it is what is also
called cornflower ?). I hope it is a good start. I'll take home your list
and see if I can be further help. My problem is that I did not even know the
Hungarian names for most of the stuff. Your effort is commendable.
Regards,Jeliko

Dear friends,
your comments on the letter to the new president of the World Court
rattled me in my belief in the correctness of this call for action.
For this reason I contacted a lawyer who has experience with the
International Court in the Hague and is involved in the Danube
lawsuit. Unfortunately I can't tell you his name since our contact
confidential, let's simply call him Mr. X.
According to Mr. X the decisions of the World Court has always been
influenced by politics and the public opinion, sometimes even more
than by juristic arguments. As a lawyer dealing with international
law Mr. X recommend us to continue our letter campaign if we want to
do something in order to save the Danube.
Best wishes
Peter Orban

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************
Priority:
URGENT
Background:
Hungarian organizations and churches from New York City and
surroundings have requested vice president Al Gore to receive a
delegation of Hungarian-Americans which wishes to present him the
aspects of the lawsuit at the International Court in the Hague and the
Compromise Plan. The Compromise Plan ensures the survival of the
famous Danube wetlands of Szigetkoz.
What to do:
Please ask vice president Al Gore to receive the Hungarian-American
delegation. Feel free to use the attached NEW form letter. Al Gore
will only take notice if he receives thousands of letters.
Therefore please send at least one letter every day. Furthermore
PLEASE MAKE A CHAIN LETTER OF THIS CALL FOR ACTION. Send it to
everybody on your personal mailing list and ask them to forward it to
their friends. PLEASE ACT!! SEND SEVERAL LETTERS A DAY!!!
e-mail address of Al Gore:
*************************************************************
The Honorable Al Gore
Vice President of the United States
(e-mail: )
RE: Please receive delegation of Hungarian-Americans
Dear Mr. Vice President,
When Slovakia illegally diverted the Danube in 1993 and thereby
endangered the Danube wetlands (mainly located in Hungary), you wrote
to professor B. Liptak about your concern for this unique ecosystem.
The divertion of the Danube by Slovakia caused a dispute with its
neighbour Hungary. The two countries determined to let the
International Court in the Hague decide in the case.
It seems to be time for you to speak up again for the rescue of the
Danube wetlands, as humankind is approaching an important precedent:
The first international environmental lawsuit is coming up in a few
weeks at the International Court of Justice in The Hague.
Still, the implications of this case go beyond the future of just one
river or just one wetland ecosystem. This lawsuit will set a precedent
for the whole planet and will decide on a much more basic question:
"Do national governments have the right to do as they please with the
ecosystem of this planet, or does humankind as a whole have the right
to protect her natural treasures?"
In 1995, nine international environmental NGOs have submitted a
"Memorial" to the Court which its president, the Honorable Mohammed
Bedjaoui, has accepted. Also submitted to the ICJ was a Compromise
Plan, which would guarantee the restoration of this ancient wetland
region together with fulfilling the water supply, energy and shipping
needs of the region.
Dear Mr. Vice President, a delegation of Hungarian-Americans wish
to present you the most important aspects of the lawsuit and the
Compromise Plan. Please receive this delegation and attend to its
arguments. Please help to save the Danube River.
Respectfully yours,
Your name, title, address

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************
Priority:
URGENT
Background:
Hungarian organizations and churches from New York City and
surroundings have requested vice president Al Gore to receive a
delegation of Hungarian-Americans which wishes to present him the
aspects of the lawsuit at the International Court in the Hague and the
Compromise Plan. The Compromise Plan ensures the survival of the
famous Danube wetlands of Szigetkoz.
What to do:
Please ask vice president Al Gore to receive the Hungarian-American
delegation. Feel free to use the attached NEW form letter. Al Gore
will only take notice if he receives thousands of letters.
Therefore please send at least one letter every day. Furthermore
PLEASE MAKE A CHAIN LETTER OF THIS CALL FOR ACTION. Send it to
everybody on your personal mailing list and ask them to forward it to
their friends. PLEASE ACT!! SEND SEVERAL LETTERS A DAY!!!
e-mail address of Al Gore:
*************************************************************
The Honorable Al Gore
Vice President of the United States
(e-mail: )
RE: Please receive delegation of Hungarian-Americans
Dear Mr. Vice President,
When Slovakia illegally diverted the Danube in 1993 and thereby
endangered the Danube wetlands (mainly located in Hungary), you wrote
to professor B. Liptak about your concern for this unique ecosystem.
The divertion of the Danube by Slovakia caused a dispute with its
neighbour Hungary. The two countries determined to let the
International Court in the Hague decide in the case.
It seems to be time for you to speak up again for the rescue of the
Danube wetlands, as humankind is approaching an important precedent:
The first international environmental lawsuit is coming up in a few
weeks at the International Court of Justice in The Hague.
Still, the implications of this case go beyond the future of just one
river or just one wetland ecosystem. This lawsuit will set a precedent
for the whole planet and will decide on a much more basic question:
"Do national governments have the right to do as they please with the
ecosystem of this planet, or does humankind as a whole have the right
to protect her natural treasures?"
In 1995, nine international environmental NGOs have submitted a
"Memorial" to the Court which its president, the Honorable Mohammed
Bedjaoui, has accepted. Also submitted to the ICJ was a Compromise
Plan, which would guarantee the restoration of this ancient wetland
region together with fulfilling the water supply, energy and shipping
needs of the region.
Dear Mr. Vice President, a delegation of Hungarian-Americans wish
to present you the most important aspects of the lawsuit and the
Compromise Plan. Please receive this delegation and attend to its
arguments. Please help to save the Danube River.
Respectfully yours,
Your name, title, address

At 12:19 AM 2/17/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Jeliko wrote:>>>Periodically, one or more contributors of this list who are also>>participating in other discussion lists (in spite of disclaimers that they>>abhore the style or tone of the group) import the "horrors" or "dismays" of>>those other groups to this readership.>>>>Almost inevitably, that original import (as could be expected) brings with>>it some of the partcipants of those "abhored" groups and the mudwrestling>>now occurs on this group also.>>>>I came to the conclusion that some of the members who participate in these>>imports actually enjoy the mudwrestling, regardless of where it takes place.>>>>It reminds me of a kid who runs out of a room into another yelling "Jeliko>>is sticking his tounge out at me", then rushes back in and comes out yelling>>again "Jeliko is still sticking his tounge out at me" and on, and on, and>>on. And in the meantime Jeliko gets all the publicity.>>>>Isn't there a better way?>>>>Regards,Jeliko>>J.Zs. wrote:>><I agree with you 100%. And I would like to pinpoint one more funny thing. The
y
><are not only telling us what XY did/told/etc, but analysing XY's psyche><(e.g: angyalfoldi => taho) and even communicating through the Hungary list
with
><someone who does not contribute to this list.><I guess they would be glad if XY showed up again on this list.>>Probably, most of us see it like this....but "they" couldn4t>care less.>MKH>>I can not agree with the above.We have freedom of speech,and I can select
what,when and how I would spend the valuable time for those who read this list.
The reason I mentioned my correspondence was to let others also know about some
STAUNCH Hungarian,and there look at the participant of this thread.
As I mentioned I am not getting involved in history,or more educated
discussions,
since either it does not co anything for my evry day life,or I do not know
too much about it.
So I spend my time,for those letters wich concern our heritage,my evry day life
.
I am sorry if I upset some of you,but I feel good,to let my thoughts rumble
arround:Andy.

Dear All,
I am a final year undergraduate studying Hungarian at the University of
London. I am writing my dissertation on problems encountered by mother
tongue English speakers when translating from Hungarian into English. If
you could suggest examples of the following I would be most grateful:
1. Abstract concepts in Hungarian which have no equivalent in English.
For instance, it is said that 'privacy' and 'home' are very difficult to
translate from English. Can you think of any Hungarian concepts for which
a single word does not seem to exist in English?
2. Geographical concepts (natural/manmade features, flora, fauna) which
have no ready equivalent in English e.g. puszta, alfold.
3. Items in Hungarian which have a standard English equivalent (according
to bilingual dictionaries) but which in reality still differ considerably
e.g. szendvics (one slice of bread) / sandwich (two slices of bread)
kave (typically an espresso) / coffee (typically filter/instant)
karacsony (24 December) / Christmas (25 December)
4. Idioms / phrases / proverbs in Hungarian that look like they have
equivalents in English but whose meaning is actually quite different from
the English.
e.g. send someone away with a flea in his ear does not mean anything like
bolhat ultet vki fulebe.
5. Collocations which are normal(ish) in Hungarian but atypical in English.
e.g. 'nehez bor', but not 'heavy wine'.
Suggestions of good and bad published translations from Hungarian into
(any variety of) English would also be welcome.
Thank you for you help,
Zoe Toft

At 01:38 PM 2/14/97 PST, Gabor Fencsik wrote:
>There is a world of difference between protesting a miscarriage of>justice *after* the verdict, and attempting to use extra-judicial means>to influence a matter currently sub judice. The former is the right -->indeed duty -- of any free citizen in a democracy. The latter is an>act of contempt toward the independent judiciary -- the ultimate>guarantor of the rights we all enjoy. An organization engaging in such>tactics is heading straight toward a public relations disaster.>>I am sure the President of the World Court, like most highly visible>public figures, has an able secretarial staff whose job it is to>route inappriopriate correspondence of this sort to the circular file.>>
I think it is appropriate to address concerns to judges, who value input and
information on topics they are asked to review. Of course, for this to be
effective, it must be done in a civilized manner, and it must convey real
information, not just political hyperbole.
As far as protesting a miscarriage of justice *after* the verdict, of course
it is a right, but no more than expressing opinion before the verdict. It's
pretty much useless, though... The proper protest is an appeal to a higher
court, hoping to reverse the verdict.
As far as an independent judiciary is concerned, their independence may be
assured by lifetime appointments, adequate pay, etc. Being independent does
not mean they are insulated from life and that their judgements can not be
swayed by the power of argument and fact. Indeed, adversarial arguments pro
and con are the basis of the judicial process.
Charlie Vamossy

>Flower Dictionary (Draft 1997.02.16.)>>?> ? Bu'zavira'g
<As far as I know it is in the chicory family (or maybe it is what is also
<called cornflower ?). I hope it is a good start. I'll take home your list
<and see if I can be further help. My problem is that I did not even know the
<Hungarian names for most of the stuff. Your effort is commendable.
<Regards,Jeliko
You are right, it was ( blue ) cornflower
MKH

In connection with the Tocsik affair (by now everybody ought to know
what that is) a parliamentary investigative committee has been calling in
people who are supposed to be involved in the affair. One after the other
either doesn't show up or if they do, they make a prepared statement and
leave the room, refusing to answer the questions from the members of the
committee consisting of representatives of all the parties represented in
parliament.
Although I am not a student of the American congress I have never
heard of people called upon a congressional committee not to show up! Or to
refuse to answer questions. However, I have a vague recollections that if
someone refuses to show up or to answer questions he/she is in contempt of
congress. And that is punishable by a jail sentence.
I would appreciate some input on this topic. I would be, for
example, very curious about what the situation is in Germany. (Yes, Miklos,
I am hoping to hear from you.) I am equally interested in hearing from our
Canadian friends about the Canadian situation. (Yes, Johanna, I mean you.)
And Sam, who, I bet, knows what the situation is in the United States.
And finally. I think that there ought to be some law which forbids
these characters to defy parliament. What do you think?
Eva Balogh

Unfortunately I can't fine the exchange between Janos Zsargo and
myself about the size of the Hungarian left. I mentioned the size of the
Hungarian left as twenty percent but, as I admitted later, I was only
guessing. I was guessing on the basis of a public opinion poll on people's
attitude toward the Hungarian revolution of 1956. I didn't have hard data.
Janos Zsargo questioned this figure, saying that I must be joking. Surely,
the left is miniscule in Hungary. Nothing like twenty percent of the
electorate. In answer, I admitted that it was simply a guess on my part.
Well, I am reading some Hungarian papers (very behind, by the way)
and what do I see but an article which contains proof that I wasn't terribly
off in my guess on the size of the left. I just finished an interview with
Ferenc Gazso, a sociologist, in *168 ora* (January 21, 1997, pp. 8-9) in
which I found the following: "De ha eltavolodunk egy kicsit e hezitalo
retegtol, lathatjuk: a partok korul idovel stabil szavazoreteg alakul ki.
Ilyen peldaul az MSZP baloldali szavazobazisa (a valasztok huszonot
szazaleka.)" [But if we move away a bit from the undecided group [of voters]
we can see that eventually a stabil electoral basis develops around parties.
Such is, for example, the left-wing voting basis of the MSZP, twenty-five
percent of the voters.]
Thus, my guess concerning the twenty percent of the leftist vote was
actually a bit too low. If twenty-five percent of the voters (which
constitutes the left around the MSZP) is considered leftist and if we add
the close to five percent which voted for the Munkaspart then my guess was
actually a bit too low. We may speak of thirty percent of the electorate. I
wouldn't be surprised about that figure at all.
Eva Balogh

My understanding is that the problem some have with lobbying the =
Judiciary is this:
Whereas politicians are directly accountable to their constituents =
judges are required to make their decisions on the basis of laws passed =
and precedent. Any arguments put to judges should be in the court and =
only by parties to the case. It is therefore a step forward that =
Professor Lipt=E1k's group has been granted standing in the court.
In the case of the International Court of Justice there are certain =
differences. There is very little explicit corpus of law, the corpus of =
precedent is also limited and most importantly the sovereign nations =
party to the particular dispute agree in advance to be bound by the =
decision of the Court. Also the judges are elected for a limited term.
Consequently I think we have to be very circumspect in how we lobby and =
the sample letter I have read I think fulfils this object.
Regards
D=E9nes
----------
From: Charles Mikecz Vamossy[SMTP:]
Sent: Tuesday, 18 February 1997 3:40
To: Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject: Re: Lobbying the Judiciary
At 01:38 PM 2/14/97 PST, Gabor Fencsik wrote:
>There is a world of difference between protesting a miscarriage of>justice *after* the verdict, and attempting to use extra-judicial means>to influence a matter currently sub judice. The former is the right -->indeed duty -- of any free citizen in a democracy. The latter is an>act of contempt toward the independent judiciary -- the ultimate>guarantor of the rights we all enjoy. An organization engaging in such>tactics is heading straight toward a public relations disaster.>>I am sure the President of the World Court, like most highly visible>public figures, has an able secretarial staff whose job it is to>route inappriopriate correspondence of this sort to the circular file.>>
I think it is appropriate to address concerns to judges, who value input =
and
information on topics they are asked to review. Of course, for this to =
be
effective, it must be done in a civilized manner, and it must convey =
real
information, not just political hyperbole.
As far as protesting a miscarriage of justice *after* the verdict, of =
course
it is a right, but no more than expressing opinion before the verdict. =
It's
pretty much useless, though... The proper protest is an appeal to a =
higher
court, hoping to reverse the verdict.
As far as an independent judiciary is concerned, their independence may =
be
assured by lifetime appointments, adequate pay, etc. Being independent =
does
not mean they are insulated from life and that their judgements can not =
be
swayed by the power of argument and fact. Indeed, adversarial arguments =
pro
and con are the basis of the judicial process.
Charlie Vamossy