October 1, 2008

Couric: Your church sponsored a conference that claimed to be able to convert gays into heterosexuals through prayer. Do you think that gays can be converted, governor?

Palin: Well, you're absolutely wrong, again, on the facts. My church, I don't have a church, I'm not a member of any church. I get to visit a couple of churches in Alaska when I'm home, including one, Wasilla Bible Church, and that's the one that you're talking about.

Couric: Right. I think James Dobson's group … had a convention or a meeting there. And your church…

Palin: No, I think they …

Couric: …supported it.

Palin: The Wasilla Bible Church had a flyer that was part of a bulletin or something …

Couric: But you know what? That doesn't even matter. Let me just ask you the question.

Palin: Well, it matters, though, because, Katie, when the media gets it wrong, it frustrates Americans who are just trying to get the facts and be able to make up their mind on, about a person's values. So it does matter …

Couric: … you're correcting us.

Palin: But you are talking about, I think, a value here, what my position is on homosexuality and can you pray it away 'cause I think that was the title that was listed in that bulletin.

It seems obvious to me that it should have been transcribed: "what my position is on homosexuality and 'Can You Pray It Away?'"

Palin is referring to the title of a program that was listed in a church bulletin. Not transcribing it as a title, in quotes, makes it seem as though she might be expressing an opinion. Indeed, that original transcript flaw seems to have led a copy editor to make it into a much worse blunder.

Look at the CBS article reporting on the interview with excerpts from the interview:

But what you're talking about, I think, value here, what my position is on homosexuality and you can pray it away, because I think that was the title that was listed on that bulletin.

See that? "[M]y position is on homosexuality and you can pray it away...." It's not a question anymore! "Can you" has become "you can," and not presenting it in title form makes it seem as though she might be expressing the opinion you can pray it away.

The video clip with the article does not include that line, so it's very unlikely many readers will notice the way the words got rearranged, and I think many will read that as an initial statement that you can pray homosexuality away.

Back to the original transcript, as she goes on to refuse to say what she thinks about the power of prayer and sexual orientation:

And, you know, I don't know what prayers are worthy of being prayed. And I don't know what prayers are gonna be answered or not answered. But as for homosexuality, I am not going to judge Americans and the decisions that they make in their adult personal relationships. I have, one of my absolute best friends for the last 30 years who happens to be gay. And I love her dearly. And she is not my "gay friend." She is one of my best friends who happens to have made a choice that isn't a choice that I have made. But I am not gonna judge people. And I love America where we are more tolerant than other countries are. And are more accepting of some of these choices that sometimes people want to believe reflects solely on an individual's values or not. Homosexuality, I am not gonna judge people.

Now, Palin does speak of choice: "She is one of my best friends who happens to have made a choice that isn't a choice that I have made." Does that mean she thinks sexual orientation is a choice? It could simply mean that the friend has chosen to act in accordance with her sexual orientation. Oddly, that interpretation would mean -- if we apply logic -- that Palin too has a homosexual orientation. Settle down. Think about it.

If Palin believes sexual orientation is not a choice, then she should have said: "She is one of my best friends who happens to have made a choice that isn't a choice I have had to make." If I were to hold Palin to high linguistic standards, I would conclude that unless Palin is saying that she herself is a lesbian, she is saying that that homosexual orientation -- and not just homosexual behavior -- is a choice.

155 comments:

I'm perplexed at why someone's belief that homosexuality can be prayed away or is a personal choice is of more note or concern than their inherent belief that 2000 years ago some guy turned water into wine, walked on water and came back from the dead.

To put it another way, its like overlooking the fact that somone believes in the Loch Ness Monster but think they're crazy because they claim they saw Bigfoot.

It may be a technical error in the transcription, but it seems obvious to me that she was referring to the title of the workshop (or whatever it was). It seems immaterial if the title was actually "you can..." or "can you...". The underlying question is, what does she think about homosexuality.

Of greater interest, however, is her statement that she is not a member of any church.

I am gay-friendly and I consider the argument that homosexuality is a biological switch to be very far from proven. It may yet be proven, but whatever case exists now falls under the heading of "PC science".

So yes, if Sarah Palin believes that homosexuality is a choice, then her argument is consistent.

The options aren't just "choice" versus "biological." If somone's "nurture" over decades has made them "gay," it doesn't mean it's a choice. It's not like something they can switch off and on. Even if you believe that being gay is some sort of disease or mental illness, you wouldn't exactly use the word "choice" to describe that.

Put another way, we don't say that manic depressants or cancer victims chose to be that way, even though they weren't born that way.

I think it's probably impossible that Sarah Palin believes homosexuality is anything other than a choice, and I do think that her words bear that out.

Then again, it could be an issue that she struggles with, especially if that statement about her best friend is true. This statements seems much more coherent than the rest, so perhaps this is an issue she has thought some about. It is probably hard for her to reconcile her religious belief that homosexuality is a choice with the fact that her friend is gay.

What people don't get is not everyone has a clear-cut belief on this issue. Maybe she doesn't give it much thought. Maybe it doesn't apply to her, so she just doesn't really think about it. I think that's the case with most straight people.

I emphatically do not believe that being gay is some kind of disease or mental illness. I subscribe to the libertarian philosophy of "live and let live".

What I am saying is that there is little credible science that proves that homosexuality is not a choice. What science does exists seems designed to prove a talking point: that because gay people cannot choose their orientation, they are entitled to deference to their lifestyle.

I am sympathetic to their choice of lifestyle in the first place, because I believe it is none of anyone else's business. What is misleading is to try to drag science into a political debate. Moreover, it can have unintended consequences. Let us imagine an entirely plausible scenario where the existence of a certain gene is linked to a 90% chance of a child growing up gay. This gene can be tested for during pregnancy. I suspect that most potentially-gay fetuses would suffer the fate of Down's Syndrome children. Scientists working in this field should be careful what they wish for - they may get it.

One point on this issue is that we Christians are a people of The Book. We even capitalize it because we revere and hold our scripture as holy. So when the New and Old Testaments clearly state that homosexual sex is a sin we are stuck with it. Oh sure, we can deny our Book, but then we are not the people of the Book.

Having said that our Book states unequivocally that homosexual behavior is a sin, it does not say that being "gay" is a sin anywhere. The Bible is strict about sex, ask Jimmy Carter!

And I control my sexual impulses and desires every day. So do you! I am commanded to have sex only with my wife and that goes against the aspects or my personality that want to screw around.

So I pray to be faithful to my wife because the alternative would hurt her and displease the supreme being of the universe. Bad on both counts.

To follow up on another thread: I agree that very few people chose to be gay, but everyone who is not raped chooses whether or not to have sex. So what is wrong about praying to make a good choice?

Clearly what is wrong is that the gay agenda has been based on their contention that "they cannot help it." I tend to agree about the attraction, but not about the choice of behavior. Folks who say that they were gay but were "delivered from sin" are completely contrary to the I can't help it crowd and are thus quite threatening.

People have asked me to "fix" their orientation. I always tell them that the research suggests that a particular attraction is a difficult if not impossible thing to change, but that I would be happy to support them and listen to them as they deal with their life and attractions.

After he woke up the room with his desperate bid for some blazing man-on-fireman action, the firefighters grabbed him and held him until police arrived.

Farr, who has a string of prior arrests, walked into Ladder Co. 13/ Engine Co. 22, on 85th between Third and Lex, at about 6 a.m.

He went up to the second floor room, where Battalion Chief Christopher Lennon and 13 other firefighters were asleep, according to court records.

Cops took Farr down to the 19th Precinct station house, where he was charged with second-degree burglary and an attempted criminal-sexual act in the first degree, according to court records.

He was then locked in a holding cell.

But that was not the end of Farr's day of lasciviousness. While cooling his heels in the clink, Farr allegedly took the opportunity to strike up a conversation with fellow accused criminal, Javier Alderete, 28, of Queens, who was in for a DUI rap.

One thing led to another, the stars aligned, and Farr performed a sex act on Alderete in the cell, according to the criminal complaint.

They broke it up only when an officer arrived, the complaint said.

Farr was eventually released on $5,000 bail.

When reached at his home on East 85th Street, Farr didn't have much to say: "As far as I'm concerned, nothing [happened]," he said, before slamming a door.

Farr's neighbors were stunned by the allegations.

A man in the building said, "This is extremely out of character for him. He was never intimidating or aggressive."

"I mean, who's he kidding? But it's New York, and absurd things happen."

I don't think homosecuality for me was a choice. I also understand that there are people who believe it was. I don't agree with them on that issue, but I always appreciate when they treat me fairly, and that is really like they treat everyone else.

One point left out of the discussion about choice and sexuality concerns abuse survivors. I bet one third of the gay men and women I work with had their heterosexuality stolen from them by child sexual abuse.

It is difficult to get all excited about getting sexual with someone who reminds you of being raped as a child. The other side of that coin lies in the gay guys who tell me about learning that they were gay when they were 12 and their neighbor who was 30 "showed them."

Socrates and Anne Heche were apparently gay by choice. Your sexuality is co-terminous with your culture. Some behaviors are encouraged; others are repressed. It is quite possible to be attracted to your wife's younger, cuter sister, but if you share that thought with your wife, much less act on it, your marriage will suffer. Sadly, only in porno films will she suggest a threesome. Civilization depends on a certain amount of frustration.....We are moving towards greater tolerance of gay behavior but that just means that gays will have to hide something else in the closet the way heterosexuals do. The closet is a dark and private place and none I think do there embrace.

And I love America where we are more tolerant than other countries are. And are more accepting of some of these choices that sometimes people want to believe reflects solely on an individual's values or not.

This is actually an interesting statement. Is she saying that, unlike some people, she, as an American, doesn't believe that a person's "choice" to be homosexual (or engage in homosexual behavior) reflects on their individual values?

If that's really what she means, I'm intrigued by it. That would make her a lot more palatable than many on the religious right.

If Palin believes sexual orientation is not a choice, then she should have said: "She is one of my best friends who happens to have made a choice that isn't a choice I have had to make." If I were to hold Palin to high linguistic standards, I would conclude that unless Palin is saying that she herself is a lesbian, she is saying that that homosexual orientation -- and not just homosexual behavior -- is a choice.

OR, Gov. Palin could be asserting that EVERY individual makes a choice whether to live their lives as heterosexual or homosexual, and her friend's choice was different than the one she herself made.

I understand the point you're attempting to make about choice, Ann, but I think you're framing the choice incorrectly.

Methadras said... The only reason I came into this thread is to see if Michael came in here to talk about Sarah Palin seeing pictures of human foot tracks that try to convert gay dinosaurs from being gay.

She's proven to me, over and over again, that she is uninterested and/or uninformed about most national and international issues, so why should we care what she thinks about gays? She could say that lesbians were actually squirrels dressed up in giant human costumes and all I would do is shrug.

In the real world, I believe people's sexual orientation can fall into various points along a broad spectrum. In the political world, its a binary choice. This false choice leaves little opportunity for rational dicsussion.

first some distractions on what church she "belongs" to, then throwing her hands up on "i dont know what prayers get answered," meaning, in her view, its possible that one could pray to have another's sexual orientation changed.

She's proven to me, over and over again, that she is uninterested and/or uninformed about most national and international issues, so why should we care what she thinks about gays?

Zach, do you place Biden under the same kind of scrutiny as well? Evidently, despite being at the forefront of the debate on Iraq, Joe once again proved he was on the wrong side of the equation helping lead the charge to Bagdhad. Interesting that Obama being a vehement opponent would have chosen him as his VP. Palin may be uninformed but Joe being the foreign policy expert he is, was informed and still made the wrong call even when The One knew it was.

Who cares what she thinks about this issue. It has no affect or effect either on the position of being Vice President.

Maybe homosexuality is a choice, maybe it is biological. /shrug Maybe the choice being made is to act in a particular way. You can choose celebicy and become a nun or to be a huge whore screwing 10 guys a night.

Hilarious article in today's Wall St. J. about how Palin demolishes debate opponents....

"Asked what jobs she might have in her administration for either opposing candidate, she chuckled that former Gov. Knowles could be her official chef, while Mr. Halcro would be Alaska's top statistician.

"It was a witty answer, and funny," recalls Larry Persily, the Anchorage Daily News editor who posed the question at a debate broadcast on the state's public television network. "But it was also a put-down. Everyone knows Tony used to own a restaurant called Downtown Deli, and she was suggesting he should go back to running a lunch counter. With Andrew, she was saying, basically, 'Gee, all your facts and numbers are nice, but the voters just don't care.'"

She's going to cut Biden's balls off and make him laugh while she does it.

Second, I don't compare Biden's stance on Iraq to Palin's lack of interest or knowledge. Biden only went along with Iraq (like everyone else) because it was politically popular at the time. I wouldn't call him "wrong" as much as I would unprincipled and a coward.

Third, let's just say that I'll be voting for the candidates who I believe are less wrong on the issues.

In the early days, Biden was screaming for more troops! He wanted at least another 50000. He was for the surge before McCain was. He was on Imus every other day hollering about it. His current position is far from what he really thinks.

Well actually, Zach, he is, assuming of course you still plan on voting for Obama. It's a package deal you see.

Second, I don't compare Biden's stance on Iraq to Palin's lack of interest or knowledge. Biden only went along with Iraq (like everyone else) because it was politically popular at the time. I wouldn't call him "wrong" as much as I would unprincipled and a coward.

I see. So Plain is uninformed but you have no problem with a 'unprincipled coward' one heartbeat away from the Presidency? Oh and not 'everyone else' went along with Iraq. There were plenty of naysayers in Congress.

Third, let's just say that I'll be voting for the candidates who I believe are less wrong on the issues.

Fair enough but as you said, it wasn't about being wrong but being an unprincipled coward. McCain may have been wrong on the war but you certainly can't question his principles. He clearly stated that he'd rather lose the election than the war. Biden on the other hand expressed his mea culpa as soon as it was politically expedient for him to do so.

Thanks but I'll take uninformed over Biden any day. You can always be educated but your principles define who you are and as you admitted, Biden showed us his.

I suppose we could go the Howard Stern route and start thinking about Governor Palin and Katie Couric making such a "choice" during the interview and then acting on it...but we best leave that to Howard Stern.

I do not believe all homosexuality is a choice or that the orientation can be prayed away, but obviously not all homosexual behavior is orientation. It happens in prisons, same sex bording schools, the Navy (ask any Marine, they will tell you most sailors are gay), etc. and not everyone who participates in such things go on to be predominently gay (well maybe those sailors). Isn't that a choice? There is a degree of some fluidity in sexuality that seems to be controlled by choice.

I believe some people are predominately oriented homosexual and should be treated with respect. Sarah Palin apparently believes gay persons should be treated with respect and said exactly that to Katie. But how someone with that orientation expresses themselves sexually is certainly a choice.

Frankly this parsing of words of Palin that the MSM is engaged in is a witch hunt. Perhaps that African minister should be called back to pray about protecting Palin from witch hunts!

I will admit that I do not understand why the Dems/MSM (same thing - thanks Gwen!) want to keep pushing the issue of whacky churches. It is just a giant invitation to air all those Jeremiah Wright vids for any moderates who weren't paying attention during the primaries.

I think that prayers to avoid witchcraft are odd and funny, but it was a a visiting minister from Africa. I think that belonging to a church for 20 years where the sermons include "God Damn America" etc is an automatic moral disqualification to be President. Let's see if the bitter god-clingers in in Pennsylvania and Ohio agree.

You can always be educated but your principles define who you are and as you admitted, Biden showed us his.

Yes but you don't understand where I'm coming from. I'd rather have someone, like Biden, who knows what it is right but plays the game despite his principles than someone who is wrong simply because they are WRONG.

Couric: But you know what? That doesn't even matter. Let me just ask you the question.

So funny.

The answer, of course, is that God can perform miracles. He could make a limb grow back if He chose to do so. If God answers prayer and brings a person through cancer or, as a missionary's kid I went to school with testified, cured an always deadly snake-bite... he can certainly answer any prayer.

And Couric has to know this. Why not ask Obama, who claims to be a Christian if he believes that God performs miracles, yes or no, and then ask him if he says "yes"... ask him if gays can be converted through prayer.

He'd say something about how it's important to be tolerant of people and how he's not going to judge them.

Yes but you don't understand where I'm coming from. I'd rather have someone, like Biden, who knows what it is right but plays the game despite his principles than someone who is wrong simply because they are WRONG.

Evidently I didn't understand. Is Palin wrong about a specific item, such as she believes 2+2=8237 or simply wrong because she holds a different point of view than yourself? Cause there is a difference.

Personally I value principles over gamemanship. Your preference for someone who 'plays the game' certainly does strike me as someone who also believes in the Hope & Change meme.

And you brought up the "wrong" label when all I said was "who cares what she thinks about anything." So you brought it into wrong vs. right on Iraq and Biden, and for the record, if Palin supported the war, like Biden, she was wrong according to me.

And you brought up the "wrong" label when all I said was "who cares what she thinks about anything." So you brought it into wrong vs. right on Iraq and Biden, and for the record, if Palin supported the war, like Biden, she was wrong according to me.

Ok, fair enough. I'm not trying to be a dick but I suspect your motivation for voting is less about right, wrong or principles but Democrat vs GOP.

Our Governor has balanced the budget, completely overhauled our child protective services and has gotten funding to provide health care for uninsured kids in Indiana yet two of my co-workers think he's somewhere between Satan and the Grinch solely because he's Republican.

Rocky was always very comfortable around Bullwinkle’s homosexual antics. It was a very enlightened attitude for an early sixties squirrel. But it was only because of his personal history. You see Rocky was rasied by his mother in New Orleans where she was a english professor who lived with her lesbian lover in the “French” quarter. Rocky had two mommies. He loved and respected his mom but he did joke around a lot. When she visited the set he introduced her as a cunning english professor. He did finally become estranged from his mom when she became a New Orleans Saints fan. As he said to me “If you are really gonna be squirrelly you have to be a Cowboy fan.”(Jay Ward and Alex Anderson, Rocky and Bulwinkle, E True Hollywood Story)

Haha... I think that's probably one of the parts my Sunday School teachers carefully skipped.

I skimmed (heh) but didn't notice anything about homosexuality... the whole thing seemed to be sexual allegory for what is given away when nations try too hard to accommodate their neighbors and gain favor at the expense of what's right.

"My church, I don't have a church, I'm not a member of any church. I get to visit a couple of churches in Alaska when I'm home, including one, Wasilla Bible Church, and that's the one that you're talking about."

Seems pretty clear to me. She attends a couple of different churches, none of which she calls her own.

then throwing her hands up on "i dont know what prayers get answered,"

Do you? No Christian knows which prayers will get answered.

meaning, in her view, its possible that one could pray to have another's sexual orientation changed.

If the good Lord can make you a homosexual, then he can remake you a heterosexual.

"Republican presidential nominee Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) told the Blade in an exclusive written interview this week that he appreciates the Log Cabin Republicans’ decision to endorse him, and he hopes “gay and lesbian Americans will give full consideration to supporting me.”

McCain’s decision to answer questions submitted to him in writing marks the first known time a Republican presidential nominee has agreed to an interview with a gay publication."

"I bet one third of the gay men and women I work with had their heterosexuality stolen from them by child sexual abuse."

I try to steal heterosexuality from my straight (adult) male friends all the time. Sometimes it works. Sure, they might eventually recover their stolen heterosexuality. But it's usually the worse for wear.

"I do not believe all homosexuality is a choice or that the orientation can be prayed away, but obviously not all homosexual behavior is orientation. It happens in prisons, same sex bording schools, the Navy (ask any Marine, they will tell you most sailors are gay), etc. and not everyone who participates in such things go on to be predominently gay (well maybe those sailors)."

This is a good point. I've had sex with a lot of men who weren't "gay", who didn't lead "gay lives", who simply, at one time or other in their lives, chose to have sex with another man. Since Trooper brought up that hot NY Post story, I'll admit that I've had sex with a NY firefighter and a Marine. Only one of the two would identify himself as "gay".

There's a difference between behavior and orientation. Neither is a sin in my estimation, but your mileage may vary. As long as you keep your behaviors and beliefs consensual, adult and don't try to force them on anyone else using the power of the State, I'm fine with you. This goes for gays as well as Christians.

The next time you're with a gay friend or relative (and yes, we ALL have them...even trooper and hoosier and fen...and alex)...ask them why they made that choice...and see what they have to say about it.

What about asking Obama if, since he's a Christian, does he believe God can perform miracles, yes or no, and then ask him if prayer can change a person's orientation?

That would be fair.

And then Obama would say exactly what Palin has said... that he's not going to judge people and we should treat people equally and isn't it wonderful that we're a tolerant nation.

And everyone would think that was wonderful!

Palin has actually, for real, protected the rights of gay Alaskans by vetoing anti-gay legistlation. Why would it matter if she thought being gay was a choice, or result of life events, or biologically determined and in what percentages for each category?

The way we treat people shouldn't depend on that.

Are you, Michael, saying that sexual orientation is NEVER due to choice or life events? Not ever?

I'd love to see someone try to pin Obama down on the issue, to *make* him say one way or the other, dangit... "just let me ask you the question." and not let him get away with a general statement of any sort. Don't let him say something general and reassuring... make him take a stand.

If he's going to present himself as a friend to gay people *make* him say it's biological and *make* him say that God can't "cure" it. Not won't... not that he can't speak for God, bla bla bla, or say what God will do... but make him say it one way or the other "Do you think that gays can be converted, Senator? You're a Christian... don't you think God can do that, Senator?"

What Palin wanted to say about the issue was the right thing and wholly adequate.

Trooper - Palladian - chicken: Do YOU believe being gay is a "choice?"

Not being gay, I really couldn't say. But I will say that my own own straight orientation has been fixed since I became aware of sex.My decision to first have sex was definitely a choice- and it still is (my wife willing of course).

Perhaps the choice that Sarah was talking about was music. I mean, who wouldn't want to have a little Melissa Etheridge in their library---but owning the complete Janis Ian collection is another thing altogether.

Annie, love reading your columns, but doggone it, sometimes you're just too lawyerly! This is a perfect example of parsing a sentance TOO MUCH, because of your lawyer training to argue both sides of any issue! "If I were to hold Palin to high linguistic standards, I would conclude that unless Palin is saying that she herself is a lesbian, she is saying that that homosexual orientation -- and not just homosexual behavior -- is a choice."

I have had two women, both self-identified lesbians, tell me that although they had had sex with both men and women, preferred having sex with women.

I had a neighbor who had 3 kids, who left his wife for another man.

I have an acquaintance whose wife also had three kids, and is now living with a woman.

I had a co-worker who graduated from Mills College (and all girls school) who said that many women that attend there have sex with other women. For some, I'm sure it's just an experiment, for others, probably will identify as lesbians.

I also read a gay man in the Village Voice who said that frankly "the we don't have a choice" idea as insulting to him.

You also have the example of Anne Heche, and I'm sure others if I cared about it all that much.

Lastly, unless you apologize for calling me a liar, than I am done talking to you.

Donn answered your question. You chose to ignore his answer because it would have ruined your complete hijacking of the thread with your inane repetition of the same question over and over.

Did you ever think that they didn't answer because: (a) no one takes you seriously, so why should they answer any question you ask, (b) that they were no longer following the thread and had moved on [did you notice at any time in your compulsive posting that the only one posting was you?], and/or (c) they understood that you were planning on calling them a liar if they said they didn't, and that they had no interest in playing that kind of juvenile game with you?

Seriously...it's time for you to move on to a new blog...In case you hadn't noticed, you've pretty much become known as the resident AstroTroller and a pretty pathetic one at that.

Ms. Althouse,I have been checking in on your blog with a sort of fascinated horror for the last few days. On a broad range of topics, you seem to consider yourself a deeply thoughtful and courageously honest observer. I must say that I, on the contrary, find you deeply unimpressive, and overly reactive to whatever seems provocatively contrarian, especially if it supports a right-wing position.

It's nuture vs. nature... basic high school physcology all over again. Both sides have facts/opinions as to why their right and both sides have facts/opinions to counter out what the other side said. It's a dizzying conflict that can never be answered by sitting down and looking at history. As someone who is an alternate lifestyle practicer I know that my choice... has nothing to do with the way my partner looks or my biological make-up. I believe in something deeper so who knows what it is.

Of course you can't "pray the gay away", but with the proper therapy and the right psycho-tropic medications you can suppress the un-natural urges and try to live a normal life. It isn't easy, but the rewards are substantial and are reaped in the next life as well.