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wow! Aoki is actually can deal against Yui using his pervert talk... and Taichi as usual making some important point...
indeed! They only need to use a bigger desire to suppress their fear
welcome back Yui....

well, I admit I must agree that Heartseed maybe want to do something good in the group... His conversation with Inaba can crack Inaba's heart so well...

from next episode preview, I'm looking forward to love triangle battle.... that will be cool...
and it will get better if Taichi approve harem ending.... lol
Aoki should take this chance as well.... no need for love hotel... xD

But wasn't the very premise of this entire arc hinged on the assumption that those control mechanisms you mention that regulate unwanted impulses would be ineffective in stopping their "desires"?

No, this was an assumption some watchers made because they were reminded of the Freudian concepts of id, ego and superego. The series never said it modeled the gimmick after that. The only thing it established is that it makes the characters do one thing they strongly feel like doing at the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qilin

No matter what perspective I take, I just can't see "not wanting to hurt others" counting as a genuine desire since it seems to be more of a conscious thing than an unconscious thing to me, especially since the "release of desire" that they go through definitely involves shutting down the victim's conscious regulatory functions for its entire duration.

Empathy is a genuine feeling that can be as strong or motivating as any other. The series established that empathy doesn't just stop existing when a desire gets unleashed (after all, Yui's desire to help the girls was strong enough to override her androphobia). It definitively changes how desirable we see a certain action.
I wouldn't say this gimmick targets "conscious regulatory functions" themselves (even if we could agree on what that includes), but rather it amplifies and focuses on a single, strongest desire currently felt, suppressing all other feelings and reason, including these regulatory mechanisms. But they still take part in evaluating the desire prior to the desire being unleashed. Rational thinking, moral values, empathy and experience all help us predict how our actions will affect us and people we care about. If we know the effect will be negative, then chances are our feelings towards the action will also be negative.
There are of course instances when you strongly feel like doing something and emotionally aren't invested enough in the "good option" to feel negatively towards what you really want to do. Which is what's going on with Inaba.

Overall, I like where the series is going, in a direction where the other characters manage to do something towards helping each other, and it is shown that Taichi is not perfect, and has problems of his own... That said, I'm also interested in seeing what Fujishima has planned next episode.

No, this was an assumption some watchers made because they were reminded of the Freudian concepts of id, ego and superego. The series never said it modeled the gimmick after that. The only thing it established is that it makes the characters do one thing they strongly feel like doing at the time.

Yeah. I think you're right on this point. Things are just going to make less sense if I cling to that paradigm. I should have figured that they'd model it after something more optimistic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonto

I wouldn't say this gimmick targets "conscious regulatory functions" themselves (even if we could agree on what that includes), but rather it amplifies and focuses on a single, strongest desire currently felt, suppressing all other feelings and reason, including these regulatory mechanisms. But they still take part in evaluating the desire prior to the desire being unleashed. Rational thinking, moral values, empathy and experience all help us predict how our actions will affect us and people we care about. If we know the effect will be negative, then chances are our feelings towards the action will also be negative.
There are of course instances when you strongly feel like doing something and emotionally aren't invested enough in the "good option" to feel negatively towards what you really want to do. Which is what's going on with Inaba.

If that was the case, then my entire position would change completely. But really, there's not much left for me to say when the entire conflict could simply be suppressed by sheer will power. Regardless, it's still strikes me as curious how even such a view could celebrate the dominance of the ego over the id.

I'm still rather skeptical about the effectiveness of the conscious (rational) self in suppressing the unleashed desires, given my view of the cognitive mechanism behind the phenomenon. It seems to me that we're on opposite sides of the fence on this matter. From the looks of it, I might be the one in the wrong here, but I'm not entirely sold on it just yet. So far, we haven't seen a single instance of cognitive interference successfully hindering a desire trigger.

__________________

"There’s an up higher than up, but at the very top, down is all there is."

I'm impressed with the way the latest two episodes have been handling Aoki. They have acknowledged and even lampshaded his utter irrelevance in the show (he reminds me of Akarin, his lack of presence is his only distinctive trait ) so far and had them do something about it. He has received nowhere near as much focus as the other characters are, but at least he is actually relevant now, if only a little bit. He was barely even visible before.

My only gripe is that I wish he had found a more original way to help Yui. Taichi has already used his libido (and literally his balls once) multiple times to solve problems... it's getting a bit old.

If that was the case, then my entire position would change completely. But really, there's not much left for me to say when the entire conflict could simply be suppressed by sheer will power. Regardless, it's still strikes me as curious how even such a view could celebrate the dominance of the ego over the id.

I'm still rather skeptical about the effectiveness of the conscious (rational) self in suppressing the unleashed desires, given my view of the cognitive mechanism behind the phenomenon. It seems to me that we're on opposite sides of the fence on this matter. From the looks of it, I might be the one in the wrong here, but I'm not entirely sold on it just yet. So far, we haven't seen a single instance of cognitive interference successfully hindering a desire trigger.

Maybe, it’s best for us to not being too technical (read: serious) about this “unleashed desire” thing. Doing that might be relevant for anime like Monster, but I don’t think it’s well-applied for KC since the show itself is clearly not focusing too deeply into that. If we continue doing this, we might end up hating this series for some ridiculous or irrelevant reasons like a certain poster.

My only gripe is that I wish he had found a more original way to help Yui. Taichi has already used his libido (and literally his balls once) multiple times to solve problems... it's getting a bit old.

I pretty much thought "Not another dick solution" when Aoki got his idea. Regardless, I think his solution was better incorporated into the story than Taichi's. For Taichi I didn't feel like it was at all necessary for him to kick himself in the balls or admit that, of all things, he masturbated to his female friends. For Aoki I was actually wondering where his libido went and if they were going to ignore its existence for the rest of the arc, so I was glad they addressed that in a way that finally got the whole hikikomori Yui thing over with. Unfortunately it felt repetitive considering Taichi did something like that twice already.

Maybe, it’s best for us to not being too technical (read: serious) about this “unleashed desire” thing. Doing that might be relevant for anime like Monster, but I don’t think it’s well-applied for KC since the show itself is clearly not focusing too deeply into that. If we continue doing this, we might end up hating this series for some ridiculous or irrelevant reasons like a certain poster.

I would consider my reasons neither ridiculous nor irrelevant since all I'm looking for is a consistent meta-cognitive explanation for the "desire release" phenomenon. The way it is right now, it seems a bit too convenient for my taste. But I think you have a point. Looking any more deeply into this might seriously compromise my enjoyment of this show, so I think I'll back off for now.

__________________

"There’s an up higher than up, but at the very top, down is all there is."

I would consider my reasons neither ridiculous nor irrelevant since all I'm looking for is a consistent meta-cognitive explanation for the "desire release" phenomenon. The way it is right now, it seems a bit too convenient for my taste. But I think you have a point. Looking any more deeply into this might seriously compromise my enjoyment of this show, so I think I'll back off for now.

I'm not looking for an argument here, but just to be clear :
I don’t consider your reasons are ridiculous (far from it). It’s pretty much the opposite. You’re using very logical theories to analyze Heartseed's “unleashed desire” trolling which might not be the best thing to do for this kinda anime. It’s like when you’re using physical-engineering to analyze how a Gundam can move its limbs & fly in a Gundam series and loosing the point of enjoying the show.

Empathy is a genuine feeling that can be as strong or motivating as any other. The series established that empathy doesn't just stop existing when a desire gets unleashed (after all, Yui's desire to help the girls was strong enough to override her androphobia). It definitively changes how desirable we see a certain action.
I wouldn't say this gimmick targets "conscious regulatory functions" themselves (even if we could agree on what that includes), but rather it amplifies and focuses on a single, strongest desire currently felt, suppressing all other feelings and reason, including these regulatory mechanisms. But they still take part in evaluating the desire prior to the desire being unleashed. Rational thinking, moral values, empathy and experience all help us predict how our actions will affect us and people we care about. If we know the effect will be negative, then chances are our feelings towards the action will also be negative.
There are of course instances when you strongly feel like doing something and emotionally aren't invested enough in the "good option" to feel negatively towards what you really want to do. Which is what's going on with Inaba.

Then, for me, KC didn't set the whole point up well. I'll quote Triple's post as my point relates:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think that Blonto's point, and also one that the boys were making, is that a stronger "not" desire can negate a weaker "want" one.

Aoki wouldn't refrain from trying to sexually force himself on Yui just because of ego-based control mechanisms. He'd also refrain from it since his desire to not harm Yui is stronger than his desire to have sex with her.

I think one of the central ideas of this arc is that id-based desires aren't just things that you want for yourself at a direct level (food, sex, sleep, etc...) but also things that you want for others that satisfies you at a more indirect level (i.e. Taichi not wanting to see Yui in pain, Aoki not wanting to see her get hurt by him, etc...).

So the boys are basically arguing to Yui that her clearly very strong desire to not hurt others through violence would override most violent desires that may arise within her.

To me it doesn't make sense because it's already failed. Taichi would never want to harm Iori, but he did anyway. Yui would never want to wtf-pwn random guys, but she did anyway.

How is it now, that simply by realising they're essentially good people, they can suddenly NOT harm others? Were they not good people to begin with? Isn't the real reason why Aoki hasn't raped Yui the fact that he hasn't been sexually aroused enough?

I greatly question how Aoki could stop himself if he was with Yui in a love hotel and with her dressed up provocatively. I really do. Not when the whole point was that the desire unleashed is uncontrollable (well, it was supposed to be that way, but plenty of desires went unfulfilled).

There are two ways at looking at Aoki's argument (that I see at least).

Spoiler for First:

First, that one ultimate desire will trump the rest forever 100% of the time. So his desire to not rape/harm Yui will mean he will never act on his sexual urges. To which I retort with a big 'MEH' given that desires always compete with one another and rely heavily on the situation. Were Aoki to be so sexually aroused that he might think of his own pleasure first before Yui's safety, I think he could rape her (through this gimmick, not in normal circumstances).

Case in point how Inaba started coming on to Taichi after being aroused. What was going to stop her aside from the fact that she 'reawakened' and that they were interrupted? Perhaps Taichi could've out muscled her, but if her desires were allowed loose, and continued on, she would have essentially come close to raping Taichi, regardless of whether it 'harmed' Taichi (since the desire already activated).

A further directly related case is when Yui found Inaba and Taichi, she didn't harm Taichi at all, showing she didn't want to harm him (before Aoki's realisation speech). Further hitting home the point that she DIDN'T CARE if she harmed those other random guys.

Also, to go further, it would mean Aoki would do anything to protect Yui, perhaps, even harming others to protect her (which would be no different to what Yui did;and is essentially what happened with the police). Since we established his ultimate desire seems to be to protect Yui. To imply he has other desires that can compete with wanting to protect Yui would invalidate his point.

And I struggle to think that Yui would just sit idly by should the same situation of random guys harassing girls happen again (especially when you don't know how far they'd go). Surely her ultimate desire would still be to protect the girls AT ANY COST. This was already proven before, and I see no reason why it would change with Aoki's speech. Heck, if she had seen Taichi harm Iori, she might've wailed on his ass.

Spoiler for Second:

The second way of looking at his point (damn this is longer than I wanted to write..haha): A stronger desire can interrupt a weaker one (well, weak, but one that can still cause an outburst, so still pretty strong). To which I'd reply with as freaking NORMAL. The whole point was that certain desires, ones you wouldn't normally act on but affected you strongly, were being allowed free. The hell is the point, when a stronger desire, the thing that holds you back from acting out in a NORMAL situation, is the same thing that can overcome the problem in this special situation? Let's face it, the strongest desires are essentially what controls us. A real world comparison: Obama doesn't cheat on his wife because of his desire to not destroy his family/keeping his image/love/whatever winning over stray sexual urges. Bill Clinton on the other hand, didn't give a damn. His desire for sex outweighed all those other things (at least, in that moment in time, which adds to my competing desires point).

Out of the two, I think Aoki meant the first, which is why I said I felt 'MEH' with the outcome. It's just neglecting what has already happened, and essentially calling everyone good people. Plus it promotes this 1 ultimate desire without competition thing. The only way you can justify it is if Yui and Taichi didn't know they would be harming others. In essence they didn't know their desires would hurt others. But even in that case, it's still inconclusive. Aoki might not realise him wanting sex with Yui would hurt her, heck, he might think she'd like it and BAM, it would be too late. The whole thing just kind of smells exactly like how Taichi handled Iori in arc 1. He shouldn't have said he'd always recognise her 100% of the time, but he did anyway, and paid the price.

I kind of agree more with Inaba and Yui's original way of thinking, that staying far away from strong impulses was the way to go, with the realisation perhaps then being they had to trust those around them to hold them back whenever they had an outburst (since you can't live as an outcast forever/HeartSeed wouldn't allow it). Be more trusting kind of thing. I thought that went well with the whole 'friends are meant to hurt each other', because at the end of the day, only those friends understand where you're coming from, and know you well enough that they might forgive you. Strangers would rarely give you the benefit of the doubt. Or they could've explored reasons behind actions. Like why Taichi was wanting others to be as selfless as him or why Yui actually beat up those guys. Perhaps she still has an inner hatred of men or something. And try to overcome their desires that way. The way they've given us, is just, 'meh'.

Hopefully I worded that well enough because it took me a while to properly write down how I thought about the whole thing. I'm probably reading way more into the show than I should. I mean we had instances of simple desires being unleashed like the 'EAT' moment, but then that seemed purely for comedic reason so how seriously can we take it (although it would still go to prove that simple desires can be unleashed, so what hope do they have of inhibiting much stronger ones?). We've still got a final episode to the arc, but that seems more focused on the love triangle so I'm not sure how much more of the whole gimmick will be further explained. Much like the first arc, the gimmick isn't fully explained which hinders my appreciation of how the characters 'overcome' problems.

^Thing is, Taichi caused Iori harm not because of a desire to do so. It was an accident that was incidental to his desire to leave the room and go to Yui's house. The damage that was caused to Iori was a fairly remote result of his desire to leave. Simply put, it was a freak accident.

Yui's fear was that she would have a desire to attack boys directly, or indirectly attack them due to a desire to protect girls. These desires are closely related to the possible resulting damage that she is afraid of. She was afraid of the previous incident in which she directly attacked the delinquents. Her fear isn't about the remote possibilities that aren't reasonably foreseeable.

Taichi's argument is that she can overwrite a desire to harm by a stronger desire not to harm. It doesn't mean that no harm will occur by accident or due to random factors, since accidents are part and parcel of everyday life and will occur whether or not one's desires are unleashed. Rather, the argument is that the desire itself can be overwritten, not that the harm can be prevented 100% of the time.

^Thing is, Taichi caused Iori harm not because of a desire to do so. It was an accident that was incidental to his desire to leave the room and go to Yui's house. The damage that was caused to Iori was a fairly remote result of his desire to leave. Simply put, it was a freak accident.

Yui's fear was that she would have a desire to attack boys directly, or indirectly attack them due to a desire to protect girls. These desires are closely related to the possible resulting damage that she is afraid of. She was afraid of the previous incident in which she directly attacked the delinquents. Her fear isn't about the remote possibilities that aren't reasonably foreseeable.

Taichi's argument is that she can overwrite a desire to harm by a stronger desire not to harm. It doesn't mean that no harm will occur by accident or due to random factors, since accidents are part and parcel of everyday life and will occur whether or not one's desires are unleashed. Rather, the argument is that the desire itself can be overwritten, not that the harm can be prevented 100% of the time.

Depends really, Taichi's outburst was 'Don't Interfere' and directed towards Iori, who was butting in on his argument. It was aggressive in nature, or he was angry at least. So while it was an accident, it was still firmly his fault. What's to stop him doing something similar when he gets angry next time? He's been angry at everyone in this arc (except at Iori). Taichi's case is slightly different to Yui's, but if the underlying concept of desire overwriting desire is being used, it still is weak.

Taichi said he was selfish and arrogant and whatnot, but now he isn't? Why? Seems to be 'just because'. I mean, I know he hurt everyone, and he's reflecting, but it still leaves a lot unanswered. So much so that we can't truly say his desires have changed. We just have to accept it, which is why I'm not enthralled.

In Yui's case, are we agreeing? Nothing Taichi nor Aoki said changes that she wanted to harm those guys. If the same situation came up again, why would anything be different? Is Yui now going to sit idly by and let the guys harass girls just because her desire to not harm is greater than her desire to harm, thus screwing those girls? How is that any better? Also, colour me unconvinced that Yui just suddenly won't have a desire to harm in such scenarios. At least in Taichi's case, he reflected, but in Yui's case? It just seems like a cop out. Taichi's mentality supposedly changed, but Yui? She still fears guys, wants to protect girls.

And like I said, if it's simply one desire overwriting another desire....that's how it works in normal life. What is the point in this gimmick, when the way to overcome it, is exactly the same as you do in normal situations? How was this even successful in the first place? Wouldn't everyone (who's good natured, as these people are), have a desire to not harm people in the first place? Why did that not kick in before? Do you have to consciously realise it? Wouldn't it imply these people have dark desires first and foremost (except maybe Iori)? And that's disregarding the fact people have multiple desires that can contradict each other and are dependant on the environment/situation at hand.

Although, maybe it does imply Taichi isn't good natured to begin with...but then he never imposed his selfish ideals onto others before....so....what was the point?

This also made me think of how violence can be an action, not just a desire. You can desire good things, but do it through violence. Like killing to preserve peace. How does having a 'do no harm' mentality help there (in this specific gimmick scenario where desires are unleashed irrespective of the action utilised)?

And like I said, if it's simply one desire overwriting another desire....that's how it works in normal life. What is the point in this gimmick, when the way to overcome it, is exactly the same as you do in normal situations? How was this even successful in the first place? Wouldn't everyone (who's good natured, as these people are), have a desire to not harm people in the first place? Why did that not kick in before? Do you have to consciously realise it? Wouldn't it imply these people have dark desires first and foremost (except maybe Iori)? And that's disregarding the fact people have multiple desires that can contradict each other and are dependant on the environment/situation at hand.

I agree with your analisys but for this episode I am willling to give them the benefit of the doubt because:
1. The writer intentionally didn't explain how exactly the "unleashing of desires" works;
2. It doesn't need to be the truth, just an argument convincing enough to let Yui out of her self-imposed confinement.

Actually if I were in Aoki I would have used another argument. It has already been proven that an outburst can be stopped by others, either distracting the victim (when Inaba asked Aoki to name 5 good things about Yui) or phisically restraining them.
So basically they just need to stick together for as long as possible when at school and cover each other's asses.

I agree with your analisys but for this episode I am willling to give them the benefit of the doubt because:
1. The writer intentionally didn't explain how exactly the "unleashing of desires" works;
2. It doesn't need to be the truth, just an argument convincing enough to let Yui out of her self-imposed confinement.

Pretty much this. As much as I want to rag on about the convenient writing in this arc, there's just no way of knowing if the author just took the easy way out by not looking that far ahead. We really have no way of knowing how the author intended this desire release thing to actually work, so all we can do is sit back and watch him pull stuff from his ass.

__________________

"There’s an up higher than up, but at the very top, down is all there is."