What is "Traditional Ninjutsu"?

Ha ha... wel, maybe I have studied a bit of japanese history, but that doesn't change the fact that there has been a very prevalent anti-westerner attitude, and that all ryu, samurai and ninja, did have certain methods that they prefferred to have hidden from others. Tended to give them the upper hand.

In regards to traditional ninjutsu, you would support Hatsumi?? Would you support the basic stuff being taught through the Van Donk Bujinkan DVD course??

I have no doubt that I could learn through the medium of DVD, but I just want to know what others' take is on this...

-M

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Many combative secrets to classical systems are taught through 'kuden', or oral tradition. Others you can only get through feel--they don't always make sense verbally. Ways of attacking multiple balance points, how to use footwork to move closer to an opponent without seeming closer, how to hide the true length of a blade through taking advantage of 'blind spots' in the eye...etc, these things are taught from the beginning to new people, but very few can discern this for years.

Ironically, alot of scroll 'secrets' in koryu systems have very little value to today's society--medicinal salves for wounds(antiquated stuff if you have access to a drugstore or are good with herbs), mixtures to keep lice out of yoroi(armor)--not very useful in our time period.

I've never seen RVD's stuff, so I cannot comment on its quality. I will say that video can be useful if you have a good understanding of movement. I have old footage of backyard training and various seminars that are non-commercial material. There are often little jewels for training interspersed throughout, but it takes a good grounding in taijutsu principles to pick up.

5 schools of Traditional Ninjutsu? That's real interesting. Think someone else in this section said they couldn't find one (other than their current venue). So it is possible. 3 are named in this section, all having 1 original Soke. Does your 5 include these 3 Kans?

Traditional is something that traces its roots back to Japan.
There is some documentation, historical sites, or records.
Some may argue that their history is an "oral" one, one of uneducated farmers who couldn't read or write.
That is nice, but meaningless.
Someone would have had a mention.
The local government they fought against, a local ruler who dealt with them, etc.
We have records naming soldiers who fought wars from over 3,000 years ago.
Certainly we can find a mention for a group that is less than 600 years old?

Hatsumi and his "spin offs" are the recognized lineages. Others that had existed have gone extinct with no credible successors in existence.

I'd say unless they can back it up with proof, leave them in the fantasy-land that is "Modern".

If you are going to claim "Traditional", then be prepared to present proof.

The above 5 I've been able to verify for myself beyond the shadow of a doubt. The following I've looked into, but as they are all "exinct" whether or not they actually existed, I haven't verified for myself yet...but they are ALL clearly exinct.

1. Haguro ryu Ninjutsu (from the group of mountains known as Dewa Sanzan, famous today for keeping Shugendo and Yamabushi practices alive.
2. Yagyu ryu Ninjutsu (supposedly active East of Tokyo along the road known today as "Route 6" during the Edo period. My main source for this information is from a shihan in the Bujinkan whose ancestors were part of this group.
3. Hakkun ryu Ninjutsu (supposedly a forerunner of Iga ryu, mentioned in Hatsumi sensei's books as well as other reputable sources.)
4. Takeda ryu ninjutsu (I could be wrong, but I thought this is the ryu the Bansenshukai was based on...Don, what's "the Roley Collection" got?

Just because something has a ninjutsu section in it does not make it a "ninjutsu" school. Take a look at Gyokko ryu. It has a ninpo section and yet you did not list it as a ninjutsu school. In fact, I can name a few other arts that have what might be called ninjutsu in them. They do not practice what the Bansenshuki lists as being essential to be called a full fledged ninja, but like the Katori, they do teach sneaking around- or at least used to.

If you go into the military you will learn first aid. That does not make you a medic. Same thing here. A lot of arts try to put out well rounded practicioners, but they do not go into the detail and emphisis that diferentiates between a rifleman trained in camoflauge and marksmanship and a sniper. So ask the Katori Shinto ryu and they will tell you that they are not a ninjutsu school.

Oh and I do not think that the Bansenshukai was based on Takeda ryu. It was shared by the Iga and Koga areas during the Edo period.

Just because something has a ninjutsu section in it does not make it a "ninjutsu" school. Take a look at Gyokko ryu. It has a ninpo section and yet you did not list it as a ninjutsu school..

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Gyokko ryu Ninpo? I think I know what you're talking about here. On the "Takamatsu DVD" there's a part where some densho are shown, and one of them says "Gyokko ryu Ninpo" on it, but saying, "Gyokko ryu was a NINJUTSU school" wouldn't be correct. I'd agree with you in saying that "Katori Shinto ryu is NOT a ninjutsu school", but from my perspective, it has/had a ninjutsu school within it. Not everyone in the ryu studies it, just like every Infantryman doesn't go to Sniper School...

Don Roley said:

Oh and I do not think that the Bansenshukai was based on Takeda ryu. It was shared by the Iga and Koga areas during the Edo period.

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I thought that it was; maybe I'm getting my wires crossed, I'll have to go back and check my sources. I know I've seen other references to Takeda ryu in the "Ninryu Collection" (private library in Umesato, Noda City).

I've heard that there are about 70 Ninjutsu ryu that are documented, although most of them have already been proven extinct. Anything in the "Roley Collection" that supports this?:asian:

I've heard that there are about 70 Ninjutsu ryu that are documented, although most of them have already been proven extinct. Anything in the "Roley Collection" that supports this?:asian:

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I just did a quick count of the list of "ninjutsu ryuha" in the book Ninja no Subete. It lists over a hundred, but I noticed that Gyokko ryu was listed as well. Some of the schools might also be listed more than once under varient names.

1) I struck me as if the terms "ninjutsu" and "ninpo" were being used interchangeably. Do you believe this is so, that they are interchangeable terms??

2) I seem to recall reading in one of Hayes' old books that the Takeda ryu was formed by Takeda Shingen (a warlord during the Sengoku Jidai, not the Edo period). Supposedly, it was disbanded after his death.

hey guys i have a question. How far up is standard when you do sho ten no jutsu. o yeah and do you guys use kunai as weapons because the ninja have a whole lot of them. O yeah and another thing is when you guys train do you guys use naginata (my favorite weapon, almost up there with the halberd, only problem is that there are no training schools for that any more). Do you guys spar for real like full, anything goes 'til somebody bleeds or something. O yeah and do you guys learn kuji-kiri. i think thats the best way to get a bully off your back, and off your head and arms and legs and everything else.

Ninhito,
Welcome to the Traditional Ninjutsu section. I think you will have better luck in going back over the posts here and in the general section on the matters you asked about. Lots of information has already been put out on martialtalk, too much to put all in one thread.

Check out the search function and type in words such as "kunai" and you will probably have pages of stuff to read over.

They have sooo many uses. Most of these uses i never even saw in the manga. They could be used like knives/shuriken/defensive stuff and they could pin unless the person tore himself or his clothing from the wall and could do other stuff. Maaaaan i thought that was cool weapon for fuedal japan to have too. D'OH

Do you guys spar for real like full, anything goes 'til somebody bleeds or something.

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At the dojo I train at, people who bleed and stop sparring are considered, "sissies". We like to say, "It's all fun and games until someone looses an eye....then it's hilarious". So it's easy to tell who trains at my dojo because we all walk around with eyepatches (some people have two!) and talk like pirates...

Hmmm, can someone please explain to me how the comic book "Naruto" is related to a conversation about traditional ninjutsu?

I still say that for the purposes of this forum, the definition of "traditional" was best detailed by Bester when he wrote the following.

Traditional is something that traces its roots back to Japan.
There is some documentation, historical sites, or records.
Some may argue that their history is an "oral" one, one of uneducated farmers who couldn't read or write.
That is nice, but meaningless.
Someone would have had a mention.
The local government they fought against, a local ruler who dealt with them, etc.
We have records naming soldiers who fought wars from over 3,000 years ago.
Certainly we can find a mention for a group that is less than 600 years old?

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As I understand the purpose of this forum, it is for groups that can be found in Japan. That is it. I hope not to see any sniping between the x-kans here. I do not see anything that says that the moderators can determine if a school found in Japan is worthy or not. If their sources check out in Japan, then this is the place for them.

I know some Bujinkan members who have problems with ex-students of Hatsumi. And I have seen some students of those ex-students that take shots at the Bujinkan. It is getting pretty old IMO.