Putting Star Trek back on TV has been increasingly talked about as of late. Out of nowhere a tweet from reporter Joe Michalczuk who was covering the Ender’s Game press junket for the UK’s Sky News claims Roberto Orci told him he had a meeting with CBS. This is to be considered a totally unconfirmed rumor and should be taken with a large grain of salt. We also do not know who else (aside from Bob) “they” refers to in his tweet:

Bob Orci just told me they’ve had a meeting with CBS to revive @StarTrek on TV…This made me v excited

Orci has commented here at TrekMovie in the past about his own personal interest in maybe, perhaps, if the stars align, thinking about doing an Abramsverse Star Trek TV show. But it was mostly just personal interest, the issues with CBS and Paramount being separate companies with differing agendas seemed to be a bit of a mess. So we’ll shall see if this gets confirmed in any way. Even if it’s true, don’t count on it being publicly acknowledged, preliminary meetings are just that, preliminary, often times it’s just feeling out the parties involved, in many cases doesn’t go anywhere, or doesn’t happen quickly, so things are kept under wraps until a more concrete agreement is made.

i want star trek back on TV,yes,im just not sure if this person is the right choice,yeah the last two movie have been fun,but not quiet star trek,which you can just about get away with it in its present format,i personal don’t want a TV program set in this timeline,personal one more film and then a TV program set in the primeline set after Spock move out,maybe you could have in come back home!!!a kind of book end

If you have the money to back it, a solid premise with solid writers, a good network like SyFy (syndication even better) it should workout. It would be nice to get input from Ron Moore, Bryan Fuller, and Bryan Singer who have all shown interest in a new series and are all uniquely talented. Remember just because S.H.I.E.L.D. is a show based on the movies does not mean it will be good and will not get cut in the first season. Same with Trek, if its based on the new movies does not mean it will succeed or fail. Regardless… I have faith.

Frankly, wether its prime or alternate universe makes no huge difference to me, just to have Star Trek back on TV would be great. But deep down I do want the prime universe :) 25th century and beyond, to deal with new issues, expansion of the Federation, and just to have the technological advancements like a new type of warp drive or jump gates to allow ships to go deeper into the galaxy and explore new space. I would like to see how the Cardassian’s are progressing after the war, did Bajor and Ferenginar join the Federation. Are the Klingons and Fed’s even close bosom buddies with Martok in power, did the Romulan’s seek Federation aid after their tragedy. Granted this is wishful thinking the likes of which we might never see.

This will take years, and even with a grain of salt, it nice to hear that there are ideas fermenting from various writers, producers, and suits on what can be done with a new series.

One of the many aspects I love about Star Trek is its historical progression. We had TOS in the 23rd century, TNG, DS9, VOY in the 24th, and Enterprise covering the 22nd. There were always chunks in between which were slightly filled in. Enterprise was great, we saw what happened with Starfleet pre Federation (no Romulan war, and the beginning of the Federation in the last episode was a big slap in the face.) It would be nice to see how things have progressed in the 25th century especially with the way Star Trek Online has progressed the universe whether its cannon or not. Again, an alternate universe show is fine and I know based on the success of the new movies and the need to obtain viewers that it might be tied into the movies and Kirk’s time. My vote goes to an alternate universe show in the 25th century.

I posted this on the other thread about Bob comments regarding this story.

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92. Ahmed – October 11, 2013

And now, Bob replied to that article in the comments section:

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boborci

i THINK MY COMMENT HAS BEEN BLOWN OUT OF PROPORTION. Someone asked about Star Trek TV, and I said we had inquired about the rights. Doesn’t mean a show is imminent nor do we assume CBS would want us to do that at this time. I refer you to the Roddenberry podcast for context.

I’ve said in the other threads that CBS might be getting a little nervous that the “Crime Broadcasting System” schedule that has served them so well since around 1999 might finally be coming to an end. We’re down to one CSI, which is fading. NCIS is aging and has lost one of its stars. Last season’s attempt at a second NCIS spinoff came to nothing. “Hawaii Five-O” and “Mentalist” have been dumped in “burn-off” time-slots. “Elementary” is getting is rear end kicked in the time slot by “Scandal”, and “Person of Interest” is down big in the ratings in its new time slot (it also seems to have changed focus into “The Shaw Show”). That really leaves only “Criminal Minds” and “NCIS:LA” as successful dramas, and LA is untested without the NCIS mothership as a lead-in. New dramas other than “Elementary” have utterly failed: “Hostages”, “Vegas”, and “Made in Jersey”, with “Unforgettable” banished to summers.) The network’s attempt to launch new comedies in the past two seasons has been even worse, with “Crazy Ones” the only one with decent ratings not attributed to riding the coattails of “The Big Bang Theory” (“The Millers” is dead meat if moved anywhere else, just like “Sh*t My Dad Says” and “Rob” before it.) Really, the only genuine success for a new show CBS can point to in the last few years is summer’s “Under the Dome”, an fantasy/sci-fi/crime-drama hybrid, which might have opened the door for other non-procedural dramas on the network, such as Halle Berry’s “Extant” next summer. Might it be time for CBS to consider a relaunch of Star Trek on TV?

If a possible show (not imminent; as Orci said in Twitter) is coming from the Bad Robot team? Then I’m not holding my breath.

ST will just go further and further away from a place of optimism and creativity and towards more spectacle and empty revenge flicks. Their bungling of the last movie (and their antagonism towards the fans) really put me off.

There was a hint in a British scifi magazine about a next movie being about a Klingon War (yaaaaawn). In other words? More war, more devastation. Probably a Klingon (or Khan again) hell bent on revenge for something else, too….

3 Mr Ballz, You just have to have the right attitude toward “Spock’s Brain”! It’s the best campy episode of Trek ever. And it makes for a great drinking game. Sip every time you hear “brain” and you’ll be paralytic after 20 minutes :P

5 MJB, AGREED SIR OR MA’AM, AGREED!
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I say, CBS should air NuTrek on Thursday nights, 9 pm, right after their great lead-in, “The Big Bang Theory” !!!

@24. Flake. Possible. CBS does not have to say yes to Orci just because Paramount did. CBS could ask Ron Moore, Bryan Fuller, or Bryan Singer which might be more akin to the Star Trek we know and love. The question remains, is the traditional Star Trek recipe enough to bring in the cash, and that is all that matters. If NuTrek brings in the money, then that is what is being done, its a business. You think a corporation cares about what Star Trek means to us? Ok maybe if the executives are fans themselves, but they really care about what Star Trek means to them and their business and making money. Yes we all know this, but arguing over prime or alternate isn’t going to accomplish a damn thing, its really not about what we want.

I think I speak for many fans when I say nuTrek in an alternate timeline was not the problem.
I like many welcomed it and even enjoyed it the first film. Lens flares certainly to me was hardly a problem. In fact I never even thought about those while more listless fans ran out of faults for the film.

But it was the crap feast and years of deception leading up to and presented to us all in STID, an entire NEW retelling of a Khan was a blatant slap in the face to us all.
Orci and his pitiful ban of lack luster writers poured us a cup of toilet water stew insisting it wasn’t Khan for months on end and then puking on us all.

Don’t get me wrong, the cast is still fabulous and was able to pull the whole thing off.
Even the directing was above par and of high standards in the Star Trek world.

The story chosen was unneeded, unwanted and unnecessary..they Boldly Went Where There Was No need To Go!

A nuTrek on TV would be great…but not under the current anemic writing talents still in control.

If true, this could be very good. With enough time to get character development , and most importantly show the growing friendship between Kirk and Spock to what it’s meant to be without being rushed. Dig in more with McCoys character and get more in depth with the other supporting characters Scotty, Uhura Sulu and Chekov. I’d like to get more backstory on them. What made them join Starfleet and more of them on their own showcasing their skills.

If we can get less action and more exploring (and less revenge as someone added) that would be awesome. Ending the Spock and Uhura thing would be the icing on the cake. Or just don’t bring it in at all.

However, I doubt this will ever happen. I think more Star Trek shows will come along, but not with the original characters. It might be better that way as well. As much as I love the new cast, all except Quinto and Urban leave a bit to be desired in their take on the characters IMO. Casting the characters for a third time would be EXTREMELY tricky.

A TV series allows for more time to be spent on developing characters and seeing who they are as people, on and off Starfleet/starship duty.

One possible scenario is that the Menosian world gets discovered and understood by Kirk and his Enterprise. Spock and Uhura are seriously bonded and seek to make their bond public. Meanwhile James Kirk has met an interesting alien lady who has few, if any, problems with James, on occasion, giving into his roving eye/passion.

It is decided that a bonding ceremony will take place on Menosia – Spock/Uhura and JK/Josera. Carol Marcus is out of the picture because, fortunately, Kirk realizes that she could do the “dirty” on him, just as her counterpart in the prime universe, did.

Ah the romance, the fun to be had – especially since Menosians and Nulis are really good sorts. It is possible that Menosians might be related to the Betazoid race, not only because they share certain empathic/telepathic abilities, but because they bond mind to mind, flesh to flesh. Showing skin is NO sin in these parts. Kirk, Josera, Spock and Uhura each receive a small, handheld nuli as a gift. McCoy discovers he has massive, tall tree climbing abilities and a touch of vertigo as well that he never knew about…and Scotty still can’t his head around how the hell these organic nuli beings manage to traverse space as some of them do…

Such a lovely possibility – without any violence or revenge…

Question is – are we ready yet? Does this captain need to undergo yet more kicking, punching and pummeling? Or maybe this happens to him as (21st C Trek fan/writers) punishment for him actively parenting Menosian/human child(ren)?

People pitch series ideas to the networks all the time, and 99% of them get shot down in the discussion phase over drinks. When we hear that a treatment or pilot is in the works, then there will be something to get excited about. Until then….

What kind of bothers me is that science and technology is what people think that Star Trek is all about. Obviously, in order for humankind to venture into space, it will take scientific discovery and new technologies to make such missions of exploration possible. However, what could be discovered in the outer reaches of space could have little to do with science and technology as we might know and understand. Indeed, much of our technology might mean little to other life and could even cause much damage in some cases. I think that is some of what the Prime Directive is about.

I know it has become a bit *old* for some here, but my Star Trek space called, for a better word, Menosian/Nuli space, operates in a different way from what most of us (the viewers) and 23rd C Starfleet characters would be used to, given prime/alternate universe Trek canon scenario. OK – I am not sure just how this world/space area works, but that is not necessarily a fault on my part, because there is so much that even the best scientists, astrophysicists and others still do not know or comprehend. I doubt that come the Trek 23rd C that all questions will be answered then either…

It seems to me that most people see discovery in terms of new weaponry or sizes and shapes of space ships, or new/different propulsion systems for these various vessels. This is certainly one area of discovery and advancement but it is really more to do with humanity’s self-importance (even hubris) and how to defend or be better than other races who may want to take us apart, than anything else. Certainly, writers of Star Trek over the last 47 years have created enough of those races capable of doing just that and those are the ones that most of the stories in any iteration have concentrated on. They have made for some damned good drama and have certainly engaged ours and the characters’ need to be strong, fighting fit, have good strategic/tactical skills and be diplomats as well. Seeking revenge, justice have played a major part in many a character’s motivations. We see that seeking justice is good but seeking revenge is not good. For example, what was Kirk seeking when he asked if he could hunt down Harrison/Khan – justice or revenge? How can you tell?

Except that this spacial anomaly (sorry Marja – need to find a good synonym) which encompasses this Menosian world system, that I actually dreamed (REM sleep) over various nights some 13-14 years ago, are not these other races…Should story writers ignore them because they are too “boringly peaceful”? I don’t know…they too have their story, as might other quiet, peaceable peoples who may also inhabit various worlds out there – thataway…or could it be, thisaway?

Besides, what does “peace” mean? What does “boring” mean? I got challenged because I described this alt. young Jim Kirk as being bored on occasion, so, just for the “hell of it” decides to read up on, eg xenolinguistics. He is able to study the basics of what would be a complex subject, without necessarily having any prior knowledge, because he has a “genius-level” (presumably) IQ, whose aptitude tests were “off the charts” according to Christopher Pike.

There are just so many issues and ideas…and, as I have said before, war really is boring and silly.

If a new series does materialize and takes place in the Alternate Universe, is it more likely to be about an entirely new crew/ship–or about the Enterprise with a recast crew? I don’t think it would be possible with the movie cast.

#56 – Personally, a series in the alternate universe using the Star Trek/STID film cast. It has to be doable.

Re my post #57 – Darn it. I should have put out a call to the Pine/Quinto guys and have them come to this thread, henceforth front and centre, to regale us of their consummate knowledge of all that is of the English language, given that while they were touring around promoting their last Star Trek movie, they were both honing their English language skills to come up and beat each other with better and more unusual words and phrases. Their obvious interest and skills could have surely been put to good use here.

Then again, I am sure there is something of great import and eloquence that either or both of these fine men could share with us here as of now.

Keachick – You really can’t get TOS copies there? No Netflix either? I’m sorry if that’s true. Maybe your Trekmovie friends can take up a collection and send you a care package from our own collections.

Good evening Mr. Orci! It’s nice to know you drop in here from time to time. You score lots of points in my book for directly addressing the fans who sometimes criticize your work(myself included). I do appreciate all your work and want to see more from you guys, trek or not, so thanks. I hope the constructive criticism is somewhat helpful and doesn’t just piss you off! See you around the galaxy…

No matter what ‘timeline’/’universe’ setting any proposed new t.v. show may eventually use, I have only one strongly wished for requirement – that it damn well focuses on ‘exploring strange new worlds and civilizations’ and to ‘boldly go where no man (or woman) has gone before’ once again!

That’s the main criteria that enthralled me watching TOS as a youngster, and I’d like to see that kind of mysterious possibility return as the main focus of whatever new show we are served up in future.

I realize that I have given you a “hard time” as well, re one of your comments you made in the podcast that I listened. It was certainly interesting and enjoyable. It was good to actually hear your speaking voice. It was to do with your comment about liking a “good fight” (re the fighting etc in the movie…). I put another spin on the “good fight” notion.
It is the kind of “fight”, made by women, that allows you, me and everyone here to know any kind of life experience…just saying, reiterating…

Sorry to rant.

Anyway, you are looking good in those two photos posted here. How are you? I assume/trust that all is well…

I actually tried to find out how Chris Pine might feel about playing his Capt. Kirk role in a TV series, but nothing. Have you asked any of the actors how they would feel, whether it was at all possible, given their career priorities, schedules etc? Is it a consideration?

Personally, I would love to see these actors play their roles in a Star Trek television series, similar to those in length that the British TV people are so good at making, like the Sherlock Holmes series with Benedict Cumberbatch and Martin Freeman. That could work.

Best guess? Reboot of The Next Generation. I mean, hey. why not? Spider-Man was rebooted in record time and Batman, well, I try not to think about where that’s going. Also, a series running parallel to the current Trek films could impact the film franchise negatively in that the alternate universe timeline would be presented on a weekly basis, thus removing the newness of the new take on Star Trek.

Best guess is also that it would end up on cable, most likely Spike. Why not CBS? Success is measured differently on cable. Oh, and don’t expect 26 episodes per season if it lands on cable. Do expect a show that’s a bit less cerebral and a bit heavier on action.

Bob Orci — If you launch this bird, what kind of hope do you have for it? Aside from success, of course. Do you want to stay with Trek as it’s been known, or create something brand new? Any thoughts on avoiding rehashing Trek plots?

Also… I’ve got my asbestos eyeglasses on if you want to rail against the little people.

CBS should be dying for a Star Trek show. And they should put it on after The Big Bang Theory. I can understand that Star Trek doesn’t really fit their brand right now, what with all of their crime procedurals. And if it weren’t for The Big Bang Theory I would agree that they don’t have room for Star Trek. But c’mon, Star Trek would have huge retention of Big Bang’s numbers. They could premiere Star Trek after an episode about the Big Bang guys geeking out over the premiere of Star Trek.

So far, this has been one of the best falls for movies that I can remember. Just saw the outstanding Captain Phillips, and this is on the heels of seeing the phenomenal Gravity last week, and the outstanding Rush the week before that. Finally, multiple great movies this year — it’s about time!

IF there is to be one new series, please make it so in the prime universe! Don’t wipe out / kill / ignore such a rich history. Really, that ‘original’ Star Trek universe is way big enough in space & time. Good writers have no trouble continuing the legacy. Simply look into the future …

Personally I’d prefer it if CBS did say no as I suspect they already have a plan for their own Star Trek TV show at some future date. I have nothing against the new team as they have made Star Trek popular again but I have to say I don’t like the new movies at all. (particularly into darkness) I don’t want a new TV series to be along the same sort of lines.

I hope CBS will use the popularity of the new film trilogy to launch an entirely new series all of their own with a new cast that is in no way connected to the new films or the Abrams universe. I want to see a continuation of the original universe.

@69 (Keachick): The only way I see Pine doing a series is if the seasons were shortened, like “Breaking Bad”, “The Walking Dead” and “Game of Thrones”. He still wants an acting career in movies, after all…

@71. (boborci): If you were given the green light to produce a television series, specifically a TNG reboot, definitely get the likes of Bryan Fuller, JMS, Ron Moore and those writers who can bring in new ideas to a fresh canvas.

I agree completely. These are the best movies I have seen since STID last May, with perhaps Pacific Rim also included.

77. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – October 12, 2013
So far, this has been one of the best falls for movies that I can remember. Just saw the outstanding Captain Phillips, and this is on the heels of seeing the phenomenal Gravity last week, and the outstanding Rush the week before that. Finally, multiple great movies this year — it’s about time!

36, Harry, I love camping … just without the terrible singing ; )
and your 47 … Just making the best of a terrible situation : P
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38 Marshall, I think the entire Nu cast is aces and many might be available for a short season of 10-12 eps/year.

I disagree with you on the Spock-Uhura “thing” – I love it and I think as a longtime background relationship would have lend general appeal for a new TV audience.
————————
Keachick, “anomaly = irregularity, departure, exception, abnormality, rarity, inconsistency, deviation, eccentricity, oddity, aberration, peculiarity, incongruity •”

… The way they always used it in TNG and VOY was as a noun describing a very particular kind of thing in space, e.g., “Captain! There is some kind of [anomaly] ahead!” Or a thing affecting their engines, and it always had to sound super-different from conversation, as does all technobabble [which is part of what makes it so demmed boring] . The words “some kind of” seemed to invariably precede whichever noun they used. (I chuckle when I think of Pine / Quinto in ST09 interviews at the beginnings of their Word Rivalry and the expression on each of their faces when Pine said “a-NOM-aly”… ZQ nodding sagely … :-) )

61 Windelkin, I suspect because of the Regional Coding on DVDs, Rose might find it difficult to find such DVDs on Amazon or similar venues, and alas, I think Netflix is US only :-(

64 boborci, I’m crossing my fingers for more TV Trek; I know yinz will … er, “would” do a great job :-) … and I echo cervantes’s wish … “strange new worlds” &c.

72 DennisC, Noooo … AU! PineKirk, QuintoSpock, et. al. FTW!

75 Paul, YEP.

77 MJ, Hope to see “Rush” [tho’ the biographical details are not so accurate, but when are they ever in a pic], looking forward to “5th Estate” and “Capt Philips” both! I LOVE FALL FILM SEASON :-D

Why not a Star Trek TV-Serie in which Prime Kirk returns and plays a significant part. An older, experienced Kirk, having been resurrected by the Borg, made their slave and is being rescued by Starfleet, seeking vengeance…

yay bob orcis back…front too…we missed you sir….were you guys surprised by the intensity of fan emotions, both positive and negative regarding stids storyline? i was….also the promise of the five year mission at the end of stid means to me imho that there be no more villains out for revenge in big dark ships…no more klingons or war although perhaps a peace treaty initiative could get started though no Organians….i think we could learn to do more good things ourselves, proving we are growing and earning a place in the universe for good….and kirk n the enterprise were a great force for good….would love to see more of that cosmic sensenof wonder n less of the negative and rather violent portions of the last two movies…..which did also have a lot of humor, character growth n many other great things as well…just hoping for a bit of a change this next movie out…thanks again for all that youve done n continue to do for our favorite franchise…llap

#81 – Hopefully, if Star Trek were to come back to television, it could be that they would be able to make 10 x 45 minute episodes per series. That would still leave time for making a movie or two…in the same year. In some years, the work schedules appear fuller than in other years anyway.

“there be no more villains out for revenge in big dark ships” Let’s hope not, but do we know yet what all that dark matter is about, up to? What about light matter – being swept up by a whole lotta love…er um…light, I mean?

It’s getting late, should be drunk but I’m not and I have just been watching some of the third season of Fringe. What big needles these guys use. Obviously, a few big veterinary hospitals must have been having a fire sale of all their big, old syringes and Warner/Fringe guys got a good deal…LOL

As I muse about science-fiction – you really can’t beat Dr Who’s Daleks – Big salt/pepper shaker shape with whisk/egg beater and toilet plunger attachments. The BBC upgraded to “gold” plungers. Then there are Dr McCoy’s remarkable diagnostic tool – the antique salt shakers. Yes, it is all about the science…:)

Did Boborci say it would be interesting to see how TNG is effected by the events of ST09, or was that Bryan Fuller? Either way I don’t want to see a recast Captain Picard. TNG was great but it wasn’t an action adventure series and it wouldn’t do well rebooted.

I’d love to see the current crew on TV but that would never happen as they all would be too busy or not interested. Apart from Simon Pegg.

I would say new crew set in current JJ-verse (for lack of a better phrase). Maybe we could get Zack Quinto to cameo. Also, I would go pre-2009 so that Pike is still alive and Kirk is still at Starfleet Academy or about to go.

It would be madness for CBS or Paramount to do anything that would not support the current $200 million dollar investment that they have put into the movies.

How about do Khan but have it in the late 20th Century or Early 21st and have Gary Seven be the main good guy and set a few years before he and his people leave Earth in the Botney Bay and have Cumberbatch play Khan.
If written well it could work.

Here’s where episodic TV always gets it wrong…they launch a show, production times eventually get tight and they start to rush with cranking out episodes. This is when crap episodes are made, with the excuse that they are fighting the clock and that’s the best they can do.

CBS has the rare opportunity, knowing they have a September 2016 launch date for the 50th anniversary of Star Trek, to commission a great team of writers to crank out 24 SUPERB STORIES in the next 3 years, in preparation for the launch of the first season.

And i mean superb, like Yesterday’s Enterprise or The Inner Light, not the usual turds they come up with.

Then, while producing those stories during the first season, the writers would have plenty of “lead time” to work on 24 more great stories, so they could continue to “knock it out of the park” with each successive season.

I think CBS would consider a live action show too expensive but perhaps they could be persuaded to green light a much cheaper animated show? 20% chance?

As we know CBS has thus far been reluctant to do any new star trek or co-operate with Paramount (except for that one DVD recently). They prefer to make a relatively small easy profit from old Trek from various licensing agreements and the sale of the old TV shows world wide (and home video of old Trek)

They are only updating the shows to HD because they would struggle to continue selling the shows in SD.

I wonder what it would take to get the rights away from CBS? If Les Mooves hates Trek and CBS is a lousy corporate partner that refuses to help cross-merchandise the movies, why hold onto to the property anyway? Get Stsr Trek back under one roof at Paramount and start building out a franchise empire a la Disney/Marvel/Lucasfilms. Movies, comic books, games, TV shows, tie-in novels, cartoons, toys…they can all drive continued interest and momentum for THE BRAND. If CBS is hurting Star Trek through inaction, then get the rights away from them and into the hands of someone that WANTS it to succeed.

Well until the series materializes, the IDW Khan Comic is coming out next week!!

This interview says they are going to explain everything, including why Khan looks different, including Khan’s birth and youth. And this will be canon folks, as per Orci.

It also suggests that the timeline might be splitting for some reason in the 20th century (prior to Nero’s intervention). Whatever the case, on Wednesday, we’ll know if John Harrison ever looked like Ricardo Montalban prior to being awakened by Marcus in STID and what Orci’s actual intent was for the character.

Here’s my theory on pre-Nero timeline changes. In episodes like COTEOF or Tomorrow is Yesterday the crew was worried about altering history, so I would say that some methods of time travel create alternate universes and some don’t. And now in the JJverse they never found the Guardian of Forever or they never discovered how to slingshot and so they didn’t travel to the 20th century of their own timeline and make minor changes that had bigger impacts. I don’t know how exactly this would affect things but it’s my personal theory and I hope it makes sense to people.

Thanks for sharing your theory. At present, time travel is not possible, and there are many theories as to how it might work. Orci claims to represent the most widely accepted theory (QM MWI), but it’s not clearly stated in ST09, and he admits that’s intentional.

Since there is no unifying theory of time travel in Star Trek, they just told good stories without worrying about the science behind them, or the implications. If you view all Trek through Orci’s filter, then every time the crew traveled through time, they created a new universe; never returning to their own, but yet another splintered universe, where the time travelers did not exist (so as to avoid duplication). But because none of this is proven, there’s nothing to say there aren’t other methods of time travel that don’t coexist with each other, as you propose.

Nevertheless, viewing this strictly through Orci’s lens, there are plenty of moments where the previous incursions in time created a universe where Khan was a white British guy, and it works perfectly well and makes perfect sense within the Trek universe. William Bradley once badgered me about how that wasn’t possible because that’s not how time travel works in Star Trek, pointing mainly to the infinitely bad idea of the Temporal police created in DS9, which would have prevented any significant changes from affecting the timeline. This is poppycock, as we saw such changes in Enterprise for which they were powerless to correct them, not to mention open to internal corruption themselves (VOY). And in any event, this is NOT how Abrams universe is said to work. Therefore, to the extent it matters, everything we saw in past Trek regarding time travel must be retconned, and I believe it can be quite easily.

But, as I’ve said numerous times before, viewing time travel this way sucks the power out of some of these stories, the least of which is COTEOF. Without Kirk’s actions in his actual past directly impacting his actual future, then Edith Keeler is just a duplicate in one of many such universes in which some live and some die. Kirk is merely splitting off a universe where everything turns out as he knows it, but the universe where it doesn’t continues to exist, along with billions of duplicates in which Edith Keeler also lives, and the Federation both ceases to exist and forms just as Kirk knows it. Thus it renders all of the characters lives and sacrifices completely meaningless. But this is the sandbox in which Orci wants to play. Is it any wonder then that he doesn’t want to make his operating theory crystal clear on screen?

And might I add, a universe where Kirk saves Edith and choses to stay in the past, marrying Edith and settling down and having kids with her. I suspect in this universe Kirk helps guide events the way they would have transpired had Edith died, and ends up fathering the Federation, and even his future self.

You are confused. CBS’ only contribution to the Paramount Trek was to issue a deadline and collect licensing fees; there was no capital investment in the production by them.

#104. Check the Circuit – October 13, 2013

Because licensing-wise CBS is raking in the dough without having to make much capital outlay. And that they are willing to reissue the old stuff speaks volume as to there being a market for it.

What is puzzling is one would think there’s some point where the cost of sprucing the old stuff up would exceed the cost of producing a new series realizing cost savings from cheaper technology and more advanced production methods? Disney, the lead promoter in the belief that old product will have value decades beyond copyrights’ original 15 years will probably be the bellwether as to when this heliopause has been crossed.

I just watched a pretty good interview with Patrick Stewart and Ian Mckellan talking about two plays they are doing on brodway together .
“Waiting For Godot” and “No Man’s Land ”
Maybe somebody could track down the vide of this , or a similar interview between the two
It was on CBS This Morning.
“The Two Sirs On Broadway”.

“Well until the series materializes, the IDW Khan Comic is coming out next week!!
This interview says they are going to explain everything, including why Khan looks different, including Khan’s birth and youth. And this will be canon folks, as per Orci….”

_________

This “canon” explanation will probably matter to people who read comics ( I don’t ).

For others, of course, “canon” will be what they will have watched on screen, and nothing else ; Space Seed, The Wrath of Khan…and/or Star Trek Into Darkness.

“…It also suggests that the timeline might be splitting for some reason in the 20th century (prior to Nero’s intervention). Whatever the case, on Wednesday, we’ll know if John Harrison ever looked like Ricardo Montalban prior to being awakened by Marcus in STID and what Orci’s actual intent was for the character….

…Gosh I miss the old days of Trekmovie when THEY actually gathered the news and posted articles about it.”

@110. Disinvited,
“What is puzzling is one would think there’s some point where the cost of sprucing the old stuff up would exceed the cost of producing a new series realizing cost savings from cheaper technology and more advanced production methods?”

Nah, the same thing that makes a new series cheaper makes sprucing up the old stuff more economical as well. And sprucing up the old stuff divines its value from the same source that drives remakes and reboots in Hollywood: familiarity with a proven product. If anything Chris Pine and Zach Quinto are probably driving a renewed interest and demand for Shatner/Nimoy product if only from the old guard fans.

I say this more as good-natured ribbing aimed at Orci, as he admittedly tends to say a lot of things that get him into trouble. In truth this “canon” of his is no different than any other off-screen material, it fills a hole in the canon until it is contradicted on screen. Orci has said as much about the comics.

I don’t read comics either, but the value to these is that it is the only narrative we get directly from the screenwriters to explain in detail what their thoughts and intent actually were behind the paucity of explanation for certain things on screen. Would I prefer Orci contribute these ideas to a novel instead? Of course. But what do you expect from an admitted popcorn movie, from a pop filmmaker? Just what we get: comics.

“So far, this has been one of the best falls for movies that I can remember. Just saw the outstanding Captain Phillips, and this is on the heels of seeing the phenomenal Gravity last week, and the outstanding Rush the week before that. Finally, multiple great movies this year — it’s about time!”

FYI, Benedict Cumberbatch’s new movie “The Fifth Estate” is coming out next week. The movie received a standing ovation at The Toronto International Film Festival last month.

“’…This ‘canon’ explanation will probably matter to people who read comics ( I don’t ).’

I say this more as good-natured ribbing aimed at Orci, as he admittedly tends to say a lot of things that get him into trouble. In truth this ‘canon’ of his is no different than any other off-screen material, it fills a hole in the canon until it is contradicted on screen. Orci has said as much about the comics…”

_______

He has said as much, indeed.

“…I don’t read comics either, but the value to these is that it is the only narrative we get directly from the screenwriters to explain in detail what their thoughts and intent actually were behind the paucity of explanation for certain things on screen. Would I prefer Orci contribute these ideas to a novel instead? Of course. But what do you expect from an admitted popcorn movie, from a pop filmmaker? Just what we get:
comics.”

I don’t read Star Trek novels either, by the way.

And, as you know, I did not expect any…(satisfying)…explanation regarding Khan’s new appearance once it was clear he was the villain ” they ” had chosen for the sequel. But evidently, I’m curious to read about his ideas, and the opinions of the people who wanted some answers on that front.

…Not unlike the time when Mr. Orci wrote ; “In regards to K’s ethnicity: will discuss in a week. stand by.”

Although I did not think his explanations would be convincing…to me…I was still interested in reading them…just out of curiosity.

I’d love to see Star Trek back on TV. It’s where it belongs. However, please keep the JJverse writers as far away from it as possible. With these guys we’ll just get rehashes of the 79 TOS episodes. I’d rather have no Star Trek than dumbed down Star Trek.

@123. Aurore,
“Although I did not think his explanations would be convincing…to me…I was still interested in reading them…just out of curiosity.”

I don’t think what they did is defensible at all, and there is no way to satisfactorily reconcile it with canon, well at least not for everybody. The ‘there’s no reason Khan can’t be white according to canon’ apologists I’m sure will be happy with whatever explanation Orci gives, assuming he commits to a Montalban to Cumberbatch make-over copout at all. Like you I’m more curious to see how Orci wriggles out of this situation and saves face (if possible).

But, based on the producer’s comments, I’ve said all along this is a reboot plain and simple — there is no reconciling STID with canon, because it has no ties with TOS canon, despite Orci’s efforts to convince us of that with ST09 (which was a ploy in my opinion designed to encourage the die hard fans to give ST09 a chance). Therefore it’s impossible to create a canon explanation that makes sense for a majority of anyone.

“102. boborci – July 17, 2012
29.0h please. have a little fun. i said and have said exactly what you just said forever, but Pascale pushed me, he wont give up! i have said a million times that we cant determine what is canon. on this day, i said something else. ‘consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds’”

“120. boborci – February 19, 2013
119. When I arrived on the court, I had read that canon meant only what was filmed. to suddenly decree that previous defenitions of canon are not the case would feel to me like congress voting for pay raises for themselves. So as a strict constitutionalist, to me, comics are not canon.

Why do people keep saying that STID got a “lukewarm reception from the fans” when it made over $70M opening weekend and made $467,365,246 worldwide? In addition, it was number one in sales of discs its first week and number three for the year so far.

JJA & Co. made a very successful movie. If you didn’t like it because they trampled on your beloved Khan, too bad. Grow up. They were right and you were wrong because they were successful and pulled in fans and non-fans. It worked and you didn’t think it would; you were wrong. Move on and cry about something else for a change.

I think it’s because of those 100 morons at that Las Vegas convention. One hundred out of 10,000 attending that convention.

I’d say at least 90% of the Trek fans I know liked STID….and more importantly, non-Trekkies enjoyed the film too! It’s good entertainment, folks! The Trek that the whiners want can only be obtained in a new TV series. Let’s hope someone talks CBS into producing one….or perhaps CBS could sell the TV rights to some producer who cares.

I think it will be hard to get Star Trek away from CBS TV. Even though they don’t seem to like it/want it, they make money on it with very little effort. They release a few DVD packages and have a modest number of license tie-ins. Nice little profit center and return for what they invest. So someone, Paramount I assume, is going to have to pay a premium, a modest one at least, to get CBS to give it up. Which makes that a corporate risk for the bean counters.

If you knock it out of the park for the next movie (50th anniversay and all) as I expect you will, CBS will be calling YOU for a tv series. So I would wait til after the movie. Focus on blowing us away in 2016!!

Oh, sorry, CBS business is the original timeline, not the new timeline. Next trek series will be in the original timeline. Not because they love original timeline or hate abramsverse, but for business.

If the TV show winds up being a reboot of TNG, I reiterate that Timothy Dalton would be an ideal Jean Luc Picard. The facial structure and voice could almost make them brothers in real life. Just sayin is all.

#98 – “I’d love to see the current crew on TV but that would never happen as they all would be too busy or not interested. Apart from Simon Pegg.”

Why are people saying this? Have they read or heard from the cast themselves that support these conclusions, because I certainly have not? The question of whether the new film cast are able or prepared to do a new TV series has never been answered, as far as I can tell, by the actual people concerned. It is presumptuous to keep making such conclusions as to what any of the actors would or would not do.

#125 – There is an extraordinarily simple solution for you – don’t watch it! As for those of us who would like to see a kind of TV series (perhaps following something akin to a BBC Sherlock Holmes format), I say to Bob Orci – Bring on your so-called “dumbed down” Pine/Kirk, Quinto/Spock, Urban/Bones et al – as of yesterday!

If this film series has been “dumbed down” in any way, it has to do with the increased levels of *overt brutality and violence and the fact that, for some reason, most people (including the writers) appear to have the notion that this young James Kirk requires extensive kicking, punching and pummeling, as if they feel he needs to be punished for…what exactly? As for all else – the thumbs are up – as in Cool/OK!

* A little too much psycho-wank stuff, but then, it is pretty much the “in-thing” at the moment. No wonder the level of depression and (attempted) suicides appears to be up among the general population.

The problem with a new show is, the fact that Trek fandom is so fragmented, divided and adversarial against itself that I don’t know if any new series could appeal to a large segment of Trekkies. You could have new actors playing Kirk, Spock, and McCoy on the small screen and the Talifans would still cry foul like they do with the current Abrams movies.

Let’s be honest here: Trek fans (as a whole demographic) don’t often know what they want. They nitpick everyting to death, and direct nasty comments at the writers and producers when they don’t get what they want. And even when they do get their way, they still bitch about how the writers didn’t get it right, or did it differently than they wanted or expected.

Unfortunately, I don’t see this changing even if a new show is produced.
The fans would probably force the studio to cancel the show.

I remember reading somewhere (maybe this site) that if they made a tv series with these characters it would be animated… or did I just imagine it?
that would resolve the issue regarding the actors not being able to partecipate lol

as for live action, even if they can’t make a series with these characters I think years from now they could always make a new generation spin off series set in the future of the reality explored by the reboot, perhaps one where the captain of the new ship is Spock/Uhura’s badass son/daughter ;)) (would he/she be more human than vulcan?) which could be the required link with the iconic characters/old story who could still make a guest appearance appearance like that.
The beauty of the reboot like this one is that with it being an alternate reality you can introduce a lot of new things (and even people that didn’t exist in the other reality, which I personally find fascinating as a concept) that might serve as inspiration for future movies or tv-series.

Mr. Orci had said they had ( for a time ) considered doing a prime universe story. I then asked if it would have been an adventure from what I referred to as “the missing years”.

By that, I meant a story set after the three year mission out of the five during which our beloved crew was originally supposed to boldly go where no man had gone before.

Here was his answer:

“Yeah, we were thinking along those lines. Although, we were also still thinking of a academy years type story. Many things in the first act of the movie are consistent with canon. Love the missing years books. But we felt it was still too limiting.”

I loved his answer of course, but…I had never heard of the “missing years books”, before.

I think the most important thing if they do go forward with a brand new series is make it accessible & appeal to younger people.for a new generation. I would actually prefer a series after The Next Generation say 20-25 years. Perhaps a bunch of cadets on board the New Enterprise, one of which happens to be the son of Riker & Troi. Riker would now be an Admiral & they could have cameos now and then with some of the Next Generation Crew. A brand new 5 year mission perhaps with a new enemy and something happens where most of the Cadets including Riker & Troi’s son are left in charge of the ship after the senior officers are killed. The younger the characters & relatively unknown actors to play them the better chance a new series of movies can be made after the current alternate timeline movies are completed. Just a thought.

My only real nitpick is the level of violence in these new movie iterations. In both movies, the Enterprise came near to being obliterated and in both cases, clearly suffered severe damage. This was only one aspect of the kind of violence shown in the movies. However, I suspect this is probably most easily *corrected*.

I guess it will be now the “Captain Kirk no child family policy”. Kirk needs to inform any and every woman he meets of this new policy directive coming from *above* down to him. Not even Carol has kept up. She thought that horrid one-child family policy had been abolished. However, one of Captain Kirk’s regrettable duties he gets to do is to inform her that indeed the policy has changed…After all, nuStarfleet is not China now, is it?…:/

There is hope though, given that Kirk is not always very good at following rules and regulations…

@marshall 38
“If we can get less action and more exploring (and less revenge as someone added) that would be awesome. ENDING the Spock and Uhura thing would be the icing on the cake. Or just don’t bring it in at all.

However, I doubt this will ever happen. I think more Star Trek shows will come along, but not with the original characters. It might be better that way as well. As much as I love the new cast, all except Quinto and Urban leave a bit to be desired in their take on the characters IMO. Casting the characters for a third time would be EXTREMELY tricky.”

I would love to see ANY kind of Trek series from Bad Robot or Bob Orci’s production company. With Alias, LOST, Five-O…and most recently Sleepy Hollow, they’ve proven they know how to produce fun, watchable, almost feature film caliber television. They have a knack for creating interesting characters and stories walking a fine balance of drama and adventure, laced with humor. If Trek comes back to the small screen, I certainy hope it is in the hands of these guys. Having said that, the LAST thing they need to do is make it for The existing fan base. The base is so fragmented they are never happy about anything…including Trek 2009 and Trek not Darkness.

But there were many fans that DID love those movies and many more new, casual, fans in the making. Deliver a Trek series in the style of the last two movies and the same, huge, audience that made Into Darkness the most successful Trek movie ever, will tune in. It would be nice if older fans, the fans that long for another trip on Voyager or fans that crave more Worf drama could enjoy a new series, but as evident by the great box office of Into Darkness, the participation, and or approval, of the current fragmented fanbase is not mandatory, nor is it neccessary. Like it or not, Star Trek is evolving and I, personally, am thrilled to be along for the ride!

I offer as a counter argument the extreme lack of silent film era movies spruced up with added audible dialogue and elimination of dialogue cards. The point being, there’s a line where sprucing up the old stuff becomes too expensive to warrant the return on investment.

130. MJB – October 13, 2013

I think its more of deduction based on the fact that bulk of the traditional Trek fanbase exists in the U.S. and STID’s box office took a dip there.

You make a reasonable argument for Orci as a Trek TV producer but like MJB you are ignoring the fact that such a series will be launched in the U.S. domestic market where STID took a dip in the B.O.

CBS, in any negotiation for a Trek series, is going to want some hook that distances it from that. It would all boil down to the fact that if you argue in your pitch that STID’s U.S. dip was just a bunch of OFs that aren’t in CBS’ target demographic anyway, then you run the risk that they’ll come back that 2009’s numbers were built on those selfsame OFs as well and then there’s no there there. Also, doing great outside the U.S. is fine for Paramount but not a selling point in trying to convince CBS to launch a Trek series in its domestic network programming line-up.

” 38 Marshall, I think the entire Nu cast is aces and many might be available for a short season of 10-12 eps/year.

I disagree with you on the Spock-Uhura “thing” – I love it and I think as a longtime background relationship would have lend general appeal for a new TV audience.”

Using the same, current cast would never happen. These people already have a busy schedule I’m sure, plus once you make it to the big screen no one wants to move back to television usually. Many would probably see it as a step down. IF the show happens, it would have to be a new cast. As I said, it’s not impossible to cast new, good actors in the roles, but incredibly tricky I’m sure.

And I’m aware you are one of the fans of the Spock and Uhura romance. And unfortunately you’re probably right about it staying. There is always romance in every tv show added for drama and a larger female audience. You can’t get away from it. However I don’t know how long some people could tune in if we had to sit through a Spock and Uhura debacle like in STID EVERY week. Once every four years seems plenty to me thanks :) But to each their own…

You don’t think CBS will be excited to sell a new series to international markets? STID did the best ever internationally compared to all the previous Trek movies. So I would think the time is now for a new Trek series because the international audience will help support it.

Let me correct something about my post at 161. When I say the actors would see moving to TV as a step down I did not mean it as a slight or to be disrespectful to tv actors. Working on TV is NOT a bad thing at all or anything to be ashamed of, especially if it’s being run by men like Mr. Orci and/or JJ. Karl Urban is my favorite reboot actor by FAR and I can’t wait to see him in Almost Human. And while it failed to capture my personal interest, many of my friends love Sleepy Hollow.

What I mean is most actors try to aim for film work and start off by doing tv. Mr.Cumberbatch does Sherlock yes, but I’m fairly positive that when it’s over he has no intention of going back to TV seeing as he has made it in the big leagues. I would say the same thing about most of the reboot cast. Chris Pine, Zoe Saldane, Simon Pegg and Anton Yelchin, John Cho, Zachary Quinto and Karl Urban all make movies pretty consistently, some more than others.

Mr. Quinto, Mr. Urban and Mr. Cho are all great actors who are currently doing or have done television work. However if I had to guess, I would think they would prefer doing films. Either way if they were to join the cast of a new Trek series on tv, I would be thrilled. And also very surprised.

Cite me examples from CBS history where they were willing to eat years of domestic ad revenue losses on an expensive sci-fi series, just so they could launch at some later date in profitable foreign markets?

If anything, it is a history rife with CBS poaching ideas for domestic launch from successful foreign (largely U.K. comedies) shows.

Now there’s a twist that might make your posit work: CBS funds an Aussie or English Trek with an eye for realizing cost savings into adapting (Possibly in reusing the FX?) it for the U.S. after success in those markets.

@147 “My only real nitpick is the level of violence in these new movie iterations. In both movies, the Enterprise came near to being obliterated and in both cases, clearly suffered severe damage. This was only one aspect of the kind of violence shown in the movies. However, I suspect this is probably most easily *corrected*.”

You mean like WOK, where Kahn tortures and kills the Regula 1 crew, and then McCoy is hauling down bloody corpses with a rope. Or TSFS, where the Enterprise gets more than bad damages — the whole ship explodes.

Isn’t it a good sign, that someone just says the words “cbs” “star trek” “new series” and the web is full of it because everyone is reporting about it?
Doesn’t it show, there is general interest? Maybe you should more often say words like these. ;-)

Thank God CBS is not interested (although I’m not at all surprised by that). The last thing we need is that AU tripe spilling over to the small screen. Abramsverse was born on the big screen and that’s where it should die. As to the prospect of a Star Trek series coming back to TV, I think it’s unrealistic that it would happen before 2020 or 2025. So, it will probably take at least 5-10 years for a new Trek TV show of any format to be just considered. In the meantime, an animated Trek show would have much greater chances of being made, I think. And I think that’s what the potential producers should concentrate on for now. There are already some good ideas. For example, Star Trek: Final Frontier, an animated series which has been in development since 2005.

@ 169 (47): There is a reason why “Star Trek: The Final Frontier” was never green lit. It’s called “Andromeda”…

Bottomline, many of these ideas from these same self-professed fans of ‘Trek, those ones who don’t like the JJ Abrams’ take on ST, are simply re-hashing old ideas, which is the real reason why CBS hasn’t green lit a television series. That, and the fact that it’s easier to piggy back the recent films with re-leases of previous ‘Trek stuff.

@158 (Mad Mann): It’s called “inflation”; it actually cost more to produce the same type of programming than it does now (which is why there has been a glut of reality-programs). Secondly, there wasn’t a lot of competition of sci-fi programming when TNG first came about. Then, suddenly, you had two ST shows happening at the same time, then you had other syndicate shows like Xena, Babylon 5, Time Trax, the Stargate franchise, Farscape and so on:

And this list is of those series from the 1990s alone. Then you got to factor in how popular genres are. In other words, it’s not easy to put on a television show, based upon what the Hollywood bean counters think on the financial return on the studio’s investment is…

@151 (Mitchell): From what indication do you think Star Trek is dying? STiD did well enough to warrant a sequel, the Blu-Rays and DVDs of STiD sold very well, and sales of older ST series and movies are doing quite good. Just because you think a poll of 100 people at ONE Star Trek convention is valid, that doesn’t mean anything other than your belief in an obvious “push poll”.

I wouldn’t call this rehashing. An animated series would be a pretty fresh and relatively original idea for Trek. There was one Star Trek animated show in the 1970s, and this could be a second such animated sci-fi series set in the Trek universe. Star Wars got its animated series, which was fairly successful, why wouldn’t Star Trek get one. I think the concept is promising.

Well, people also vote once every few years in politics. Would you then consider their “one time” voting as invalid? I’d say that poll is valid as any other poll. Just because you don’t like its results doesn’t mean it’s not valid.

Does anyone have the 2014 Star Trek Into Darkness wall calendar?
If you do, can you tell me if there’s a photo of Pike and Kirk in it? I suppose there’s no photo of Pike by himself??
I would buy one if Pike was there.

How about a second five year mission taking place after TOS, perhaps with a JJ-verse Excelsior class starship? I’d be excited about that. A second five year mission is commissioned after the success of the first with the Enterprise.

TV would be Sooooooooooooooooooooo much better than the movies. While I’ve criticized the last two films for being like Star Wars, a good writing team…like those who’ve written for Supernatural, Angel, Firefly, Fringe…they would handle TV sci-fi and character development well.

@166. Well, if we really nit-pick. alien probe wrecks planetwide havoc in TVH, TUC readily resorted to violence in the face of diplomacy that a handful of individuals found untenable, more planetwide destruction in Generations, FC was wall to wall hand to hand combat, Insurrection was nothing more the thinly veiled genocide, and it’s safe to assume that Shinzon’s coup d’état probably had considerably more purges then the Romulan Senate.

Conflict is usually resolved only one of two ways – dialogue or force. And lets face it, a movie that deals with two hours of negotiation would be pretty dull…

Ah, the ‘ol ‘time travel’ business…and a recurrent theme that’s been used by past and present t.v. show/movie writers with differing success over the years. And one that’s continues to be very pertinent to the ‘Star Trek’ franchise as a whole it seems. I’m never too keen on it’s use, as it generally causes all sorts of confusion for me. Still, where would the likes of ‘Back To The Future’ etc. have been without it, eh?

Firstly, I’d like to thank Curious Cadet and Captain Slow for their interesting posts #108, #109, #110, and #111 respectively, which brought up the possible 2 ways of looking at how ‘time travel’ actually works in various past ‘Trek’ shows and movies… Good stuff.

I’d like to speculate a little on both ways, along with how I choose to look on it all…so I hope you’ll bear with me as things could get messy…

1. The way that Curious Cadet suggested concerning the mind-boggling ‘Quantum Theory Many-Worlds Interpretation’ theory ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation ) – now I hope I’ve got this right…but it implies that no-one can ever go backwards in time in the *actual* universe they ‘time-travelled’ in…but merely end up in what is essentially a *totally different* universe to the one that they ‘time-travelled’ from, even though all the people and surroundings may look extremely similar to where they started.

And while the ‘time-travellers’ might be able to correct whatever wrongs they wished to originally sort out…they only end up correcting those wrongs in this new, ‘alternate’ universe they’ve entered, rather than the *actual* one they originated from…and even if someone then ‘time-travelled’ *back* to what they think is their future…it actually turns out to be yet another new, ‘alternate’ universe with similar people and surroundings they now end up in!!!

(please correct me if I’m misunderstanding any of this ‘QM MWI’ theory, but as I said, I generally find ‘time-travel’ a confusing concept at the best of times!)

As Curious Cadet pointed out, this theory kinda makes all efforts to ‘sort things out’ using ‘time-travel’ as a solution, a complete waste of time where the ‘time-travellers’ own *actual* universe is concerned…thus rendering all past and future ‘time-travelling’ storylines on various t.v. shows/movies absolutely moot, unfortunately.

Sure, they might be able to influence the people and surroundings of the similar ‘alternate’ universe they’ve ‘time-travelled’ into, but things still continue to be messed up in their *own* one, which they can’t do anything about…

2. Onto the way that Captain Slow suggested – he speculated in post #109 that another way to look at various ‘time-travel’ storylines in the ‘Star Trek’ franchise is to simply *imagine* that it *is* possible to do so in your *own* universe, after all…using *some other kind* of ‘time-travel’ techniques…rather than letting the above ‘QM MWI’ theory get in the way all the time…

Personally, I choose to follow Captain Slow’s simple and elegant solution to get maximum entertainment from frivolous t.v. shows/movies…especially since there’s no current proof available to prove otherwise. ;)

However, although I don’t personally like how the ‘QM MWI’ theory negates the efforts of imaginary ‘time-travellers’ (i.e. – they *cannot* seem to change the course of events in their own, *actual* universe) – if taken seriously that is – I suppose that anyone who determinedly wishes to stick with that theory could just *imagine* that any well-intentioned ‘time-travellers’ would NOT ACTUALLY KNOW that they hadn’t gone back in time in their own, *actual* universe…and ALSO DIDN’T REALISE that they HAD NOT ACTUALLY ‘time-travelled’ back to their own, *actual* universe afterwards either!

I don’t know if that’s any consolation, but that way their onscreen efforts would *still* count for something…because as far as the ‘time-travellers’ themselves were concerned, they DID ACTUALLY sort out the problems with their own, *actual* universe! Sadly, they just didn’t realise they were mistaken, as it was impossible to tell…

But for anyone watching with this theory in mind, any t.v.shows/movies would be a bittersweet experience…as the people and surroundings that the ‘time-travellers’ had changed were NOT the ones the ‘time-travellers’ actually *thought* they’d changed!…

However, while consistent ‘time-travel’ storylines are problematic either way (and as Curious Cadet pointed out in post #110, certain ‘Star Trek’ writers have certainly contradicted things along the way), some of you may recall that I like to use the actual ‘Many-Worlds Interpretation’ for my *own* personal ‘Star Trek’ canon, lol. – meaning that I like to *imagine* that any t.v. shows that came after the TOS shows and movies were merely showing similar, but *totally different*, ‘alternate’ universes to the ones that the original Captain Kirk and co. inhabited!…

As the other ‘Star Trek’ shows/movies are *so* different in tone to the original series I loved as a youth, I just find I can appreciate ‘The Next Generation’ et al much better if I look on them as occurring in *separate*, different universe to the one shown in TOS altogether. On top of this, I merely *imagine* that the ‘Star Trek Generations’ movie just shows an ‘alternate’ universe Kirk dying, who’s part of a similar crew that formed in the ‘Next Generation’ show’s universe…but who is NOT the *actual* Kirk seen in the TOS show…

Hell no…the *actual* TOS Kirk of my imagination does NOT get left buried under a pile of rocks on some forlorne planet after falling off a rusty bridge…but instead happily continues to a ripe old age after the events of the ‘Undiscovered Country’ movie…where there are always more possibilities for him… :)

…and what about that ‘older Spock’ character we see in the latest J.J.-verse movies?…well, I like to think he WASN’T actually the ‘Prime universe’ one…and that he and Nero and this latest ‘Kirk’ and crew all merely originate from the same ‘alternate’ universe that the ‘Next Gen’ show etc. went on to portray. Just similar but totally different characters to the ones seen in the *actual* TOS universe…as they start off from a totally different universe seen in the TOS show to begin with. In *my* personal ‘canon’ anyway, lol.

And any future ‘Star Trek’ spin-off show will also merely be showing that different, ‘alternate’ universe to the original TOS show/TOS movies for me, if it comes about…but I will hope it will indeed be a ‘trek’ amongst the ‘stars’, and focus on a mission to seek out new life and civilizations…and boldly go on to concentrate on stuff that other ‘Trek’ shows haven’t covered numerous times already. Oh, and I hope it has some snazzy production design on display. And certainly no ‘beige’ this time around…please!

If the set-up for the whole J.J.-verse reboot has taught me anything, it’s that the whole issue of ‘Star Trek’ canon is up for grabs where anyone’s concerned…so I’ll leave you with a few fun possibilities that the whole ‘Many-Worlds Interpretation’ theory affords if you wish to *imagine* how some ‘Star Trek Generations’ storylines might have panned out in some *other* universe or two…

I would not settle for an animated series. Why should I? CBS will not risk an animated series about Star Trek with adult focus so automatically means that it will be an animated series for kids and I will be extremely annoyed by a huge number of creative choices that will be kids centric … I’m sorry but an animated series cannot live without focusing on kids, and I am a grown up and I don’t care to see kids show …

Hmmm…I took some time typing out a long post concerning the whole ‘Multiple Worlds’ scenario, but it disappeared for moderation I presume…but then re-appeared, only to eventually disappear again.

Sure hope it hasn’t disappeared into an ‘alternate’ universe…ULP!…as it makes the correction in my follow-up post seem strangely redundant. Time will tell, as always.

But while I’m still here, if there’s any ‘animated’ show to be made in future…then I’d love it to be an up-to-date re-do of the original TOS one using the original dialogue! Now *that* I would certainly re-watch.

Why not a continuation on TNG; Capt. Wesley Crusher? We know Data is immortal and I would love to see Guinan again. As to the aversion to AU’s Spook/Uhura romance, let’s not forget Star Trek is nearly 50 years old and many of it’s US fans older.

Does anyone here know what anime is?! NOT “kids” cartoons!!! I’m not saying I wouldn’t like a live action TV series, but I’m not beyond watching Trek in a more mature animated media style either.

Also, I think Bob Orci has enough experience in doing successful television series to know what the modern audience likes to watch. It wouldn’t hurt to have some of Trek writers of the past brought on has creative consultants, even some of the actors!

… but cannot possibly imagine CBS appealing to an adult audience with Anime. I do not think I’d watch it. People into comics know about Anime. Those who aren’t into it, don’t, and would assume it was for kids.

Boborci, I know you’ve written many successful shows, and I hope your skilz can be brought to bear on a TV Star Trek. Like many here, I hope to see the AU movie cast, (even if it’s only for 10 eps/year) in the AU timeline. (And, uh, with Spock and Uhura still being a devoted couple) [smile]

But on a serious note, I received the STID blu ray for my birthday and watched the film for the fourth time. I have to admit it’s a better film than I’ve given it credit for all these months. MUCH BETTER. I do still have issues with it but originally the biggest problem I had with it was revisisting Khan instead of moving in a whole new direction. AND the casting of Khan, which is still one issue I have with the movie. Cumberbatch is a fine actor but I still think as Khan he was miscast. And that colored my perception disappointed, heavily!

It’s taken me four viewings to see the film for what it is and not for what I’d hoped it would be and I now am able to actually appreciate it and really enjoy it. I’ve always liked Pine’s Kirk but he’s on his way to becoming my favorite Trek actor ever. I think his death scene was better than Shatner’s in Generations and better than Nimoy’s in TWOK. But then it was followed by Spock’s ‘Khan yell’ and that still just bugs me, a LOT more than ‘Alice in her undies’ ever did…or could.

I don’t think it was inevitable I would grow to like and appreciate STID but that has happened. And as a Trekkie since the 60’s that pleases me.

So I won’t be instantly ticked and turned off if Bad Robot get’s a new Trek show on the air. You now have my permission to make it so. (Said facetiously of course)

161 Marshall, “Using the same, current cast would never happen. These people already have a busy schedule I’m sure, plus once you make it to the big screen no one wants to move back to television usually. Many would probably see it as a step down. IF the show happens, it would have to be a new cast. As I said, it’s not impossible to cast new, good actors in the roles, but incredibly tricky I’m sure.”

I think you haven’t watched much quality TV lately. Plenty of movie actors have committed to quality television shows.

Quinto has appeared in two seasons of American Horror Story [and while it’s not the type of show I seek out, it also featured James Cromwell and Jessica Lange, two very well-known movie actors]. He has done this in between producing and starring in “Margin Call” and appearing in Star Trek – this latter a 6+-month commitment.

Urban appeared in Star Trek and has done movies in between, like RED and others, and some iteration of Dredd.

Pine is on the cusp of a Harrison-Ford-style career here with “Jack Ryan” and Ford only made about 1 movie a year. Most stars only make about 1 movie a year, sadly.

Cho is already on television; Yelchin has not yet made it “big” in movies but has done some quality films, and again, if he’s in 1/year that wouldn’t prohibit 10 eps of Trek; Pegg is pretty busy these days, but I think might make time for Trek.

The one with potential screen conflicts that might prevent TV appearaces is Saldana, (which I’m sure will bring you glee) as she is tied up with Avatar back-to-back and the Marvel thing.

“… you are one of the fans of the Spock and Uhura romance. And unfortunately you’re probably right about it staying. There is always romance in every tv show added for drama and a larger female audience. You can’t get away from it.”

Ahh, those pitiful women, who require romance to watch good television. Oh, the horror! How you must writhe watching it ….

“However I don’t know how long some people could tune in if we had to sit through a Spock and Uhura debacle like in STID EVERY week.”

Criminey, Marshall, you’d think those two minutes [if even that long] had taken over the entire movie the way you talk about it.

I get it, I get it, you hate the idea of men and women in Trek having a love life, jeeze.

Finally got some time and managed to catch the Sleepy Hollow pilot on my iPad last night.

It was wonderful!

That’s why you have to separate K/O Paper Products from Bad Robot. Sleepy Hollow is smarter than Revolutions is (or Undercovers was), and now JJ is premiering Almost Human with Karl Urban. I hope it’s successful because I like Karl Urban, but almost Human is so obviously based on the Kirk-Spock dynamic idea.

Based on his other TV work I don’t know if JJ has the guns to pull off the robbery.

Yea I kinda agree. The cast of the reboot films would never sign on to do a trek series, as cool as that may be. Many have or are currently doing tv shows and I just don’t see Pine or Pegg or Miss.Saldana going to tv. They are probably the busiest of the reboot cast. It’s a nice idea, but one that I’m pretty positive will never happen. A brand new cast would have to happen I think.

One last thing about you saying women want romance. As a woman I can say that NO, not all of us are looking for romance drama or dumb love triangles or whatever else is in pretty much every show/movie these days. I had to stop watching many shows because of it (true blood for example). I would have to say that I too would extremely weary of having to deal with Spock and Uhura on a weekly basis lol, but something tells me this idea of a new reboot trek show is unlikely, so I’m not too concerned.

Well I can see I’ve touched a nerve marja. You can always just, oh I don’t know, ignore my posts (that were never directed at you to begin with) if you are so upset by them. You love the romance. I truly do not. I’ve never had anything against the actors, although you seem to think otherwise. Because you know, if you don’t like Spock and Uhura romance you don’t like women, or Zoe,or gay men kissing women or are racist or whatever BS I’ve seen thrown around here.
And btw, I’ve said many times before that I can live with romance for Trek characters if it has to be there, it’s just that boyfriend Spock is not going well for me. Not everyone enjoys having him deal with relationship issues or fighting with his girlfriend on missions. This is my opinion, but I find it extremely awkward (and not in a cute, funny way as it tries to be sometimes) and yes, weird for a Vulcan to have to explain why he doesn’t show/express emotion. You want Uhura to have a boyfriend? Cool, I can go with that. I have a bit of a hard time with the way this new spock has been acting as a result of romance thrown on him. So I’ll just end this right now before you become even more upset and/or offended.
Peace

Ps yea I know not ALL women are looking for romance, but I’m sure people keep that in mind when developing these things. My wife is very particular about the romance she likes. She loved Buffy and Angel and Zoe and Walsh from Firefly, she loves Scandal and she has always been a fan of Dom and Letty from F&F. Like you she has come to hate True Blood, she has been completely turned off by the romance on Homeland and she too is not a fan of Spock and Uhura. I pretty much agree with her on those as well. Just depends on how well the characters interact and what that romance does for the characters individually. It just seems that nowadays, it’s pretty much thrown into everything to attract a certain type of audience.

#163 – First of all, what we shall loosely call “romance” is actually a part of many of our lives as humans, whether the people involved are heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual… and whether or not any particular “romance” results in a traditional marriage and/or children is well, anyone’s guess. I would say that for a series to not show (and possibly allow for elaboration) anyone engaged in some kind of romantic relationship is what would be considered a little bizarre…

This is what I find so odd, that so many people would be so angry and disparaging about these movie makers presenting a young couple to viewers…Spock has as much potential as his father had to make a go of a relationship with a (human) woman. One might almost consider it a *crime* if he did not exercise that potential – each according to his gifts.

Also, as has been explained by various females posting to this site over time, not all females think there is a need for romance necessarily in Star Trek…Actually, without taking an actual poll on the subject, I suspect that a good cross-section of males and females don’t have a problem with romance shown in Star Trek, in the same way that those of both sexes don’t seem to like it that much.

Three years after the end of Numbers, CBS is high on another drama procedural with a genius at the center. The network has given a put pilot commitment to an untitled drama from producers Alex Kurtzman and Roberto Orci, writer Nick Santora and director Justin Lin.

It is one of two sales for Kurtzman and Orci’s CBS TV Studios-based K/O Paper Products, along with an untitled sibling terrorist drama at the CW, done with Rob Golenberg and Alon Aranya ‘s Scripted World.

Written by Breakout Kings co-creator Santora and to be directed by Fast & The Furious’ Lin, the CBS project is inspired by the true story of Walter O’Brien’s life and how he, a man with the fourth highest documented IQ, became a real-life professor X. He recruited the world’s greatest intellects to his company where they not only solved the world’s most pressing and significant problems, but also helped each other learn to fit in and live in a world where literally being “one in a billion” can be as lonely as it sounds.

Are you kidding me? More presumptuous statements made about what these actors would or would not want to do re working in TV vs movies. Perhaps, for a long time, it might have been a kind of “us or them” mindset with Hollywood, but I do not think that applies much now. Actors are crossing over between genres – live stage acting, TV episodes and big full length cinematic film. The British actors have always done this, if they can…

Benedict Cumberbatch is English so I can easily see him appear in another TV series or as a guest actor and be a character in a major movie, as well as perform on stage. He has already been doing it, with success.

Last night I caught the tail end of an interview with English actress, Maggie Smith. The kind of thinking that posters like Marshall present is just not part of her consciousness and I doubt ever has been. Maggie Smith is known, among other roles, for playing Professor McGonagall in the Harry Potter films and now plays Violet in Downton Abbey. She has also done a good deal of stage work and says that she misses not being able to act on stage due to her dodgy hip…She is 79 years old. Working within any of these genres have been interesting steps sideways. Then we have Sir Ian McKellan, best known of late for playing Gandalf in LOTR/Hobbit movies and Magneto in the X-Men movies. Now he has his own British television comedy series and occasionally turns up in Britain’s longest running “soap opera”, Coronation Street (McKellan apparently loves the show). He has NOT stepped down – just a bit sideways – fantastic!

Why are some so keen to “box” in these talented young American actors? Pine, Quinto et al will be fine doing TV as they have been doing stage performances in plays like “The Lieutenant of Inishmore” (Pine) or “Angels in America” on Off-Broadway (Quinto).

If this is true this and they do it in the PRIME TIMELINE this would be so huge. Its been a very long time since trek was on TV and i believe people are ready. I think they will put a show on for the 50th anniversary. Lets pray that this will come out to be a setup for a new TV series.

Same as above (post #208) applies to another well-known English actor, Sir Patrick Stewart.

Benedict Cumberbatch can go wherever he wants and/or is offered. The only “step up” that major movie making may present to him (or any of these other actors like Pine…) is the extra money, but I suspect with these people, I doubt that it is ever just about the money. It is as much, if not more, about finding roles (in any/every genre) that stimulate that creative potential that so needs to find expression…

OK – perhaps I am being presumptuous here as well, then again, look at the kinds of roles all/any of these actors have played…

I just don’t believe you understand the scale that is needed to do Star Trek right. No one seems to care about the technical aspects of Star Trek, they’re all too willing to throw away the science fiction that helped drive our own technological advance.

What I want to see is a Star Trek with real blueprints. Where an exact replica of the set could be constructed in a fans basement from blueprints of the Enterprise.

I want to see a Star Trek where the physics of flight for the enterprise are modeled and we see a Sulu who is actually piloting the Enterprise rather than pretending.

I want to see a Star Trek where even though you only see it for a split second as the camera pans past the read out, a damage report that lists everything from the different wiring harnesses to the metric fasteners that hold the panels together.

I want to see a Star Trek where the entire Enterprise is completely modeled within a premium gaming engine. I want to have a single player game where I can be a crew member on the Enterprise during her missions. Maybe a phaser technician, or torpedo loader.

I want to see a Star Trek where the imaginary technology is so well thought out, as to inspire another generation of youth to strive to actually build the Enterprise and further our development as a species.

What would it actually take to run a starship? That’s what I want to see. The space born documentary of the starship that has returned from not one, but two five year missions into deep space. Captained by a man who worked his whole life towards the goal of sitting in the chair, earning the distinction of being the youngest Captain in the fleet.

We need folks who genuinely love Star Trek and aren’t there to just write a story, I mean any idiot can do that. Star Trek has been done wrong, on some levels, while it has been taken to a new level on others. I give JJ and team credit for revitalizing something that CBS said only had 1 shot to exist. Where there went wrong is destroying the essence of Trek, where stories were told not of flashy attire but of characterizations. Gene Roddenberry himself even said that character development was the forefront for this space opera. Getting back to the roots is what is needed, a bold look at starting the franchise a fresh. A series could be developed that really gets behind the notion of building an Enterprise from the ground up. Someone earlier said blueprints, well have the engineers on the show developing the first models, make it real technology but still have stuff like sex, religion, race, etc.; all the things Trek is know for but make it relevant to the story at hand and believable. Bring in people like Ron Moore who did excellent work in BSG, and find the right crew that clicks. With all the work done on Renegades and Continues you are bound to find the element necessary to make this work. Then put all of this to the fans to support and get their input. The best thing anyone could do is listen. Its like hiring a new athletic director for your program, he has to listen to whats going on the vitalize and make the program relevant for involved.

I second that. No animated Trek please. That will set back the franchise significantly from the gains we’ve finally made in Trek being taken seriously worldwide. Right or wrong, animation is largely perceived as for kids, teens, and fat, single guys over 25. Nearly all of my friends and family don’t really like much animated stuff, save something like a Lion King movie now and then. It’s just babyish.

I’m pretty sure CBS wouldn’t pass up the opportunity to have a new Star Trek series produced by Bad Robot, Since one of the CBS Shows is being produced by Bad Robot which happens to be JJ Abram’s company. They not only produce movies, But TV Shows as well.

(The following comments are from a time when I, personally, did not know a Star Trek movie was in the works) :

“…Canon is part of the DNA of our story. If you know your Trek, your knowledge will not be wasted. If you don’t, if won’t prevent you from entering this amazing world that’s been taken care of for over forty years by the fans. What other franchise has as distinct and established phenomenon as to have a name (Trekkie, Trekker). Even mainstream media covers the Star Trek fan base. There are no SPIDERMANNERS or PIRATERS, or SUPERMANNIES.

Trek belongs to all of us. I see canon much like the constitution. It is living document, but it has some principles that are iviolable.”

Roberto Orci: I don’t think that is for me to decide. As you know I considered some of the books, in my mind, to be of character canon. And some of them in between the movies to possibly be even possible candidates for canon, until some other movie comes along and makes those impossible. That is my personal view, but I am not going to declare whether comics are canon.

Hey, CBS: Dedicate a single week in September of 2016 to special one-hour episodes or 2-hour TV movies featuring cast members from all 5 TV series. (i.e.: Let Michael Dorn do his “Worf” one-shot on one night, do a “Romulan War” episode/movie with some of the “Enterprise” cast on another night, do a Sulu’s Excelsior one-shot story another night and toss in Robin Curtis as a nod to the original motion picture series, etc.).

People will watch the one-hour or two-hour shows because of the week-long event. And it would satisfy any fans who want just one more last follow-up to whatever TV series they’ve been wanting one more last follow-up to.

This is good news. It’s too long between movies for kinda mediocre installments. Trek on TV is superb, as long as it’s hopeful, human-positive, clean, intelligent sci-fi. Not firefly, not stargate, no. Star Trek. If Orci can’t manage a cast of characters that depict the best of what we are capable, in spite of our faiths, our skins, or our genders, I do hope he finds writers who CAN. I don’t want to have a show with Star Trek written on it. I want Star Trek. Think back to Season 1 Battlestar Galactica pilot — let’s make Trek worth keeping.

121–I believe Paramount had stopped Pocketbooks from publishing books in the new universe as they were waiting for STID. There were 4 novels written and put on “hold”. Christopher Bennett had noted the novel he had written would not be at all consistent with STID. He would basically have to start from scratch. Not sure about the other 3.

Ultimately, since Paramount owns the movie rights, it will be up to them to greenlight novels in the Abrams universe (probably with an ok from CBS too, since they own the brand).

According to this article, the decision was made by Orci, Kurtzman and Bad Robot, specifically to avoid conflicts with the future stories they wanted to tell (and probably maintain the mystery box). Of course nobody guessed it would take four years to write and produce the next installment. Why Orci couldn’t sit down with these novelists as he has done with IDW comics is beyond me — then again the IDW comics are mainly rehashing TOS episodes. Again, it seems like this is about preserving the mystery box, or having absolutely no idea what they are going to do in this universe of their creation, and perhaps don’t want to risk the novels being perceived as better than their scripts — Afterall, Alan Dean Foster has a lot of experience with Trek, and could likely ‘school’ the Bad Robot guys on all things Trek, even in the alternate universe. Or, just didnt want the novels to set up any expectations on which the filmmakers had no intention of delivering.

I don’t see this as being part of Abrams squabble with CBS over merchandising either, since it would be ridiculous to think CBS would suspend licensing lucrative Prime universe Trek novels while the new movie novels were rolled out, since they are not in competiton. But who knows. Abrams didnt call ST09 simply “Star Trek” for nothing. He presumably wanted to establish his brand of Trek as THE Star Trek, superseding everything that came before it, with the possible exception of the original series, or at least being equal to it. CBS would have made money on the nuTrek novels, so Abrams denied them any further profits on his universe until they capitulated to his demands to at least suspend TOS novels while he re-launched the brand.

242–The decision was officially made by Simon and Schuster, since they own Pocketbooks. But CBS owns Star Trek, and Paramount obviously the movie rights. CBS ultimately has to green-light anything Star Trek related. I’m not sure how Paramount ties into original Star Trek novels currently (both they and CBS are noted as the licensees on the movie novelization). Would Paramount have any say on an original novel based on the alternate Abrams universe? That’s the question.

At one point, Bob Orci posted a comment that he was looking forward to the new Abramsverse novels and was disappointed they wouldn’t be released. That seemed to indicate he was not initially aware they were put “on hold.” At the end of the day, CBS owns Star Trek (and maybe Paramount for movie tie ins). If they want those books released, they would have been released. Abrams may have requested they be put on hold, and CBS and/or Paramount obviously agreed. But let’s not forget, Abrams and co. do not own Star Trek. They basically serve at the pleasure of Paramount.

It appears it was for the best though. As I noted, Bennett stated for his novel at least, STID would make his novel basically impossible without a complete rewrite.

Well durn it, I sure would have enjoyed some AU novels. I bought the Starfleet Academy ones b/c I was so hungry for more stories in the AU verse.

Actually 2 out of 4 of the SFA novels are pretty darned good, stories of Kirk developing his leadership abilities and working with Uhura and others. Of course Spock can’t be in the midst of much of any of this, as Kirk hadn’t “met him yet.” I didn’t like the way they treated Gaila (just a sex kitten), and Uhura’s relation to Spock is treated awkwardly too. But Kirk and McCoy (and Uhura, in her more professional capacities) are very well written. (And, bonus to those of us who like publication design, the books are very nicely typeset and formatted, with nicely “painted” covers).

Bring out some AU books for the time ‘twixt ST09 and STiD for pete’s sake? Wouldn’t we all like to know there were more than maybe three weeks between the events of the first film and the second? There could be a years’ worth or more of adventures.

Witness the shocking origin of Khan Noonien Singh from his earliest years through his rise to power during the epic Eugenics Wars! Behold the events that led to his escape from Earth aboard the Botany Bay! Learn the truth behind his re-awakening by Admiral Marcus and Section 31! It’s the origin of Star Trek’s greatest villain, only from IDW!

“245 Ahmed
Actually, if you’re comparing this to politics, I would label NuTrek people as progressives.”

I disagree, NuTrek is essentially a journey into the past, not the future. It is about going back & doing same stuff that were done before but in a different way. it is not about looking to the future & exploring new possibilities.

And when I said NuTrek teabaggers, I was talking basically about small group in the NuTrek who can’t take criticism or even willing to compromise. Does this description fit any political group, at the moment. beside the Tea Party ?

“According to this article, the decision was made by Orci, Kurtzman and Bad Robot, specifically to avoid conflicts with the future stories they wanted to tell (and probably maintain the mystery box). ”

There is an old report that came out in 2010 that basically blame the whole thing on Abrams.

The superlative quality of J.J. Abrams’ Star Trek reboot trumped any misgivings I had about the man. Though I grumbled in winter and spring each time he reminded us he “wasn’t a Star Trek fan,” by the time summer came and I saw the film (five times) I was resigned to the fact that, yes, J.J. Abrams is a wunderkind of the popular arts.

But today he has rekindled the dying embers of my fanboy rage.

Simon and Schuster, publisher of the nine zillion (roughly) Star Trek novels had already caved to pressure by greatly reducing the amount of non-Abramsverse titles. When budget cuts came to S & S, they let go longtime editors Trek editors Marco Palmieri and Margaret Clark (the real architects of the Expanded Universe.)
.
.
They were clearly designed to be one-shots, to take place only between Spock Prime’s utterance of “thrusters on full” and whatever the opening sequence of Abrams’ Trek Sequel will be. Four of the best Trek writers were hired.

The Caliph of franchise fiction, Alan Dean Foster, was to try his hand at one, as was Christopher L. Bennett (a Starfleet Corps of Engineer graduate who wrote the lovely For The World Is Hollow And I Can Touch The Sky follow-up Ex Machina.) David Mack, the winning author behind the Destiny trilogy and the lion’s share of the Vanguard books, reported on his blog that his novel was already completed. Most heartbreaking, however, is that Greg Cox, author of the marvelous Eugenics Wars series detailing the rise, fall and exile of Khan Noonien Singh, was to author a book concerning the fate of Diaspora Vulcans with none other than Spock Prime as his focus.

Whatever happened to IDIC?!?

The official word from S & S is that the books are “on hold while J.J. and his team continue to develop their vision.”

At best, Paramount owns old (prior to 2006) STAR TREK movie rights which would only entitle them to remake those old scripts. THE NEW YORK TIMES covered the split in 2005-2006 and made it very clear that the right to make “new” Trek movies was Les Moonves’ (CBS) call. He gave Paramount’s Gail Berman a deadline to get a new movie rolling or forfeit the license to make Trek movies. This does not sound like the action of a man “sharing” Trek rights.

And when I said NuTrek teabaggers, I was talking basically about small group in the NuTrek who can’t take criticism or even willing to compromise. Does this description fit any political group, at the moment. beside the Tea Party ?

***

Sure, the democrats, the only difference being they are not a small group.

248 Ahmed
I was coming at it from a different angle. NuTrek to me is a new way of telling stories. Everything is fresh looking, fast paced – with barely a dull moment. I like it but at the same time I respect the old-school Trek since I’ve been watching it since 9/8/1966. I just think the old-school Trek wouldn’t make it in today’s attention deficit world. That’s reality.

One thing I think we all agree on – Star Trek belongs on TV. Someone has to do it by 2016. K/O, Singer, Fuller or Moore – make it happen.

Hmmmn….well, here’s the thing: Whatever kind of show they do is going to be fresh and exiting, ie – prone to cause fits among the “Trek police.” CBS is not going to spend dough on a show that cant attract and hold a wide audience.

Will it be set in the movie universe? Ehh….who knows. It’s likely. Will there be cameos? Maybe around the time of the movie releases for cross promotion purposes. They’ve got a VERY interesting cross promotion potential with the Big Bang Theory. It’d be funny to watch Sheldon criticize the CBS show for not staying true to the original series, culminating with a sit-in protest in front of Roberto Orci’s office, and Chris Pine telling Sheldon to get a life.

While I think the discussion of the internal politics of Trek Fandom is a worthwhile topic of discussion, I think you are failing miserably at keeping the external world governments’ politics out of it. And. given the subtexts of the previous two movies, it is probably a lost cause to try.

251–I tend to agree, there does not seem to be a lot of love lost between CBS and Paramount. I do believe it’s clear, CBS owns the Star Trek brand, and their approval would be required for anything involving Star Trek, outside the movies. While it may not be entirely clear that Paramount has to sign off on novels in the Abramsverse, it is clear, CBS does have a say.

Based on what I read, it seems Abrams wanted new stories that his team was not involved in (i.e. comics), to be put on hold. CBS apparently agreed. Now, they did put out a bunch of original series novels earlier this year, undoubtedly to tap into interest in the original series, but they took place in the prime timeline.

Based on Bennett’s comments, his book looks like it will never see the light of day (he noted it would take extensive rewrites, which he seemed to indicate would not be worth it). Who knows about the others. But I have a feeling they will be on hold for the forseeable future.

249–Sort of irrelevant. CBS owns Star Trek, so what they says goes, regardless of who owns Pocketbooks. But it does make things more straightforward for them, owning the franchise and the book company.

250–Check out the “In History’s Shadow” book by Dayton Ward released earlier this summer. It follows from the DS9 episode “Little Green Men” and tries to fit real world events into Star Trek lore. He noted he drew inspiration, along with elements from Cox’s “Eugenics Wars” books. Probably most fans of those novels would find things to like “In History’s Shadow”

I am not kidding. Star Trek isn’t doing you any good at all if you are so suggestible that you cannot manage NOT to parrot TV soundbytes. Isn’t Star Trek supposed to provoke thought instead of sleep, investigation instead of repetition?

I thought of that & made a comment on the other thread. When Zoe Saldana get way too busy with the 3 Avatar sequels, they should just cast Beharie as Uhura. I like the fact that Nicole Beharie is playing a competent & fun character, unlike Zoe’s Uhura.

Actually, no. I think Zoe Saldana plays a good Uhura, even if I don’t like they way she is written that much.

I have to say, one of the things that turned me off Sleepy Hollow was Nicole Beharie. The woman is darn gorgeous but I found her to be quite the over actor. Like she couldn’t quite get a handle on her facial expressions so they just went everywhere. I had the same reaction to other things I saw her in. I though maybe that was just how she portrayed that particular character, now I see it’s just her style. Not one that I’m fond of.

Zoe Saldana didn’t really do anything for me as an actress until Star Trek. She is obviously beautiful, but I didn’t think she had much talent to carry that. ST09 showed me she did. She did impress me in quite a few scenes that I wasn’t expecting. I think she is a superior actress to Nicole and still would be my top pick for Uhura.

Not to mention between the two, Zoe Saldana is the star. Nicole has been in a few things but she doesn’t have the same draw as Zoe. Of the cast Saldana is the most well known (with the exception of Pine maybe) and that’s a main reason they threw her all over the promotional posters. People would recognize her, much more than they would Nicole.

They would never recast Uhura with Beharie. It would be a mistake because she has both less talent (IMO) and star power than Zoe. Plus she has already been in the first two films. Why recast now?

Best comparable show to Sleepy Hollow is The X Files, and Sleepy Hollow has a much stronger opening than that show did. Sleepy Hollow hits the ground running; X Files took a while to find its legs. The relationship between Mulder and Scully was the heart of the show, but it developed slowly. Don’t know how Abbie and Ichabod are going to go, but I love all the characters thus far, and Abbie’s relationship to the father-figure sheriff was/is touching.

(But Clancy Brown’s ghost should say he misses her too.)

Will watch The Lesser Key of Solomon in a while. Was VERY surprised to see that title as a TV show episode. And back when we were discussing the number 72 in relation to Khan, I did not mention yet another iteration of the number which I was thinking of, because I did not know at the time that Bob had named an episode of his series for its source.

Again agreed, it hit the ground strong and ready, as if it didn’t have any legs to find. Whedon’s ensemble is clearly still in the awkward leg finding stage which is why SH bests it.

The father figure was(is?) one to her sister as well and yet, it is a relationship unknown to Abbie and strengthens the sheriff’s touching ff role.

I see the X-Files genre but I am also an old DARK SHADOWS fan from my single digit youth and really enjoy SH’s capturing the New England creepiness atmosphere so well. It is at a level that I wished DS could have achieved in at least one of its incarnations. I even find myself wishing K/O Paper Products could take a stab at rebooting that.

I grew up on the east coast and the show really captures the woods feel wherever/however they are actually filming it.

We keep seeing bigger and biggest numbers for how much DVR is boosting TV ratings these days.

But this is the biggest we’ve seen yet this fall: The Sept. 26 second episode of Fox’s Sleepy Hollow grew 71 percent in the ratings. When the next-day ratings were reported after its telecast, Hollow had a 3.1 rating among adults 18-49 — a firmly good number. But now that the seven-day numbers are in, the fantasy crime procedural has jumped to a 5.3 rating (full chart of all shows below).

The outsized Hollow leap also made a difference in the overall weekly horse race, ratcheting Hollow up five notches in the rankings, coming pretty close that week to NBC’s Voice-fueled The Blacklist (5.5) which also airs Monday nights.

Irrelevancy depends on how you look at it. From what I read, S&S as a publisher didn’t have anything to do with pulling those titles as a decision other than obeying orders. They argued and fought the illogic of it because the marketing had already started and it would cost them money to pull those titles but they ultimately had to listen to the parent company..

I should probably leave dmduncan to address your response, but it just seemed so obvious to me that he wasn’t speaking of literal ratings numbers but character development that I felt I should mention it.

I should probably leave dmduncan to address your response, but it just seemed so obvious to me that he wasn’t speaking of literal ratings numbers but character development that I felt I should mention it.”

Yeah, I agree that the character development in Sleepy Hollow was done very well. The writers & the actors did good job in fleshing out the characters in the early episodes.

I should probably leave dmduncan to address your response, but it just seemed so obvious to me that he wasn’t speaking of literal ratings numbers but character development that I felt I should mention it.

Wow! No, it wasn’t, it was very much an underground cult following, barely on mainstream TV’s radar. “X Files” ranked No.105 among all shows in the ratings for its first season. It very nearly didn’t get renewed for a second season, the Fox competition was between it and “Adventures of Brisco County”, another cult hit at the time.

You can’t just point to raw numbers, compare them to today’s ratings and say “See! X-Files was a smash hit!” all network shows got vastly higher ratings in those days than they do now. There was far less competition, far fewer cable networks, no Netflix or internet. Decent ratings today were cancellation-bait in 1993.

I think the jury is very much still out on whether BC is an A-lister or not. After all the buildup, I found his efforts in STID as pretty good — about on the level of Eric Bana in Trek 2009 — but certainly not as good as I had expected given all the buildup by JJ and others. And The Fifth Estate is getting mediocre reviews, and August: Osage County just plain bombed.

BC is a good actor, but I have yet to make the mental jump and say he is as good as all the supposed fanboy and international types thinks he is.

Personally I couldn’t give squat about ratings, although I probably should, but they are just so boring. Often something that does not rate well in the US can mean that I may not get to see that something for a long time, if at all…:(

Unless Zoe Saldana’s schedule is filled up with doing a lot of other movies other than being in the Avatar sequels, then I see no reason why she would not be available to do the third Star Trek movie.

If we assume that Paramount is working on getting this third film to screens by middle/late 2016 (50th Anniversary date 8/9/16), then she should have time to do both. If the next Avatar is due out in 2015, then it is likely that she will be working on the Avatar movies next year, 2014 (Is James Cameron doing similar to what Peter Jackson has done with making the Hobbit movies?). This will still give her time to beam back to the Starship Enterprise and resume her duties as Lt Uhura… assuming that ST3 filming does not start until late 2014, early 2015.

Did you watched the BBC series Sherlock ? If not, watch it, it will change your opinion about Benedict Cumberbatch. Also if you can, get a hold of the TV movie Hawking, where BC is playing the character of Stephen Hawking.

OT – The movie, Jack Ryan: Shadow Recruit, is due for release in the US on 25 December 2013. There has been some controversy over possible change in the release date, however, it appears that the Christmas Day date is still the official one for now.

There are release dates set down for much of Europe, South America, Asia but there is no date for Australasia (Australia and NZ). This is annoying and frustrating. Why no date for us folk downunder?

Perhaps our good acquaintance, Bob Orci, might like to ask around, because this movie is made by the same studio/investors who made STID, ie Paramount Pictures, Skydance Productions…

Wow, no, this simply is not true, Ahmed. Where did you get this information from???”

I vaguely remember reading that way back in mid 1990s in SFX & Xpose magazines.

But seeing the comments here, I went back to the Wikipedia page about season 1 & you guys are correct. Season 1 was in trouble in term of ratings, it was not a smash hit as I thought, however the ratings improved from episode 11.

“The X-Files” wasn’t a smash hit until the third season. In the beginning, the audience was mostly sci-fi die-hards, the same folks who were tuning into TNG, DS9, etc. It wasn’t until the third season when the show became a big hit as mainstream audiences began tuning into the show after reading and hearing about the critical acclaim the show was getting from critics and fans.

But even then, the show didn’t sustain its popularity. Ratings peaked during season five at 19.8 million viewers. The show’s ratings declined, resulting in a 9.10 million average for season nine.

The show was ranked #12 (19.2 million), #11 (19.8 million), #12 (17.2 million) in 96-97, 97-98, 98-99, it’s peak years. The next highest rating was #29 with an average of 14.20 million pairs of eyes watching.

Season one was ranked at #105 in the Nielsen ratings. So no, it was actually far from being a smash hit at the time. It was highly touted because of its devotion from its die-hard fan base.

By today’s standards, a ten million season average would be considered outstanding. But back then, without the online streaming and PVR sources we have now, those were merely considered average numbers.

I agree. He is great in that one TV SHOW. But to be a movie A-lister, you have to be outstanding in the movies as well, and do multiple roles. Perhaps he is just a very good guy being an intense-genius-a-hole type of character, but is not able to do much besides that. Think of Mark Strong — always plays the same type of bad guy.

BC may not be Khan to us (I call him Khan’t), but there’s no denying he’s easily the best actor of his generation. The rise of the ‘Batch’ to world domination (not as a genetically engineered tyrant of course) is inevitable….. Resistance is futile!

One, Harrison/Khan does not look anything like “Khan Noonien Singh” shown in historical records where he is shown being depicted as Montalban.

Two, Kirk states that Harrison/Khan claims to be “Khan Noonien Singh”.

So that leads to three conclusions:

1) Harrison/Khan is not really Khan Noonien Singh
2) Montalban was not really Khan Noonien Singh
3) Khan Noonien Singh had his appearance altered at some point to look like Harrison/Khan.

It looks like they are going to save that explanation for later, possibly even the final issue in March, as the entire story is being told from the point of view of Khan’s trail, presumably before they decided to refreeze him.

But, of the three explanations, I have a sneaking suspicion that they might go down the path of #2 and retcon Khan’s story so that Montalban was never actually KNS. That would be soooo like these guys.

Actually, no. I think Zoe Saldana plays a good Uhura, even if I don’t like they way she is written that much.

I have to say, one of the things that turned me off Sleepy Hollow was Nicole Beharie. The woman is darn gorgeous but I found her to be quite the over actor. Like she couldn’t quite get a handle on her facial expressions so they just went everywhere. I had the same reaction to other things I saw her in. I though maybe that was just how she portrayed that particular character, now I see it’s just her style. Not one that I’m fond of.

Zoe Saldana didn’t really do anything for me as an actress until Star Trek. She is obviously beautiful, but I didn’t think she had much talent to carry that. ST09 showed me she did. She did impress me in quite a few scenes that I wasn’t expecting. I think she is a superior actress to Nicole and still would be my top pick for Uhura.
———————————————-

Speaking of facial expressions have you seen Kerry Washington on Scandal? The way she acts is a little annoying and the way she does her face when trying to portray an emotion is odd and a bit funny.

The thing is Kerry has this beautiful big weird lips so of course any little facial expression she does will make her look like she is over acting and overreacting and it shows.

Zoe is a very good actress. Its mind blowing when you watch Avatar and know the her acting as Nyeteri is all her . There is no animation or stunt double . Its all Zoe.

One thing the critics always say about JJ Abram’s Trek is that the acting is always top notch. Zoe, Chris, Bruce, BC, Simon, Zachary, Karl, John all this guys bring their A-Game to Trek and that’s cool.

There is no need to say that Montalban wasnt Khan.
KNS simply had two different fates in two different timelines .
I doubt anybody in The Supreme Court is interested in delegitimizing Montalbans version of the character .

I have a weird relationship with Saldanas acting. Like sometimes I see her do a certain scene that makes me think she could be a great actress, and other times I wonder how she still gets work. Colombiana I thought was god awful and she over acted almost as much as Beharie in it. Best I’ve seen her act so far has been the Star Trek films. They have somewhat converted me into a fan of hers. Avatar was ok, everyone in it was pretty good. Unpopular opinion though…I think the movie itself was WAY overrated. I mean it was good, but people act like it was the greatest movie ever made. Idk. I mean special effects aside, I didn’t see what the big deal was.

While I personally wouldn’t call her a great actress, I think she is better than Nicole Beharie. Kerry Washington, who I think IS a pretty great actress, does sometimes make weird faces and yes, does over act. Claire Danes is guilty of that too. She does the same thing in Homeland. I think its hard for some actors to act angry or sad and have the right facial expressions without looking like grotesque clowns lol. Some just haven’t mastered it yet. They fail to convey the emotion in their eyes, so instead they just pull faces.

284 Ahmed, Ford is so funny! Look up some clips from his appearances on Craig Ferguson’s and Conan O’Brien’s shows …

BTW Ahmed, I disagree with you on Zoe Saldana. Uhura may not be well-written all the time, but Saldana’s acting is always top-notch in the role.

285 duncan, ; -D

288 MJ, well dammit, I was really looking forward to Fifth Estate and Osage County, Benderbatch looks well-cast as Assange. Though I see from one review they don’t really mention the rape charges against Assange in the film, and to me, they should, to balance the character/be realistic about him. Osage County really bombed? Really? Damn, cos the cast looks terrific.

Pine’s turn as Jack Ryan looks to be darned good, though the movie’s likely to be a little too action-packed for my taste. With Kevin Costner and Kenneth Branagh in the cast I’m looking forward to it.

299 Ahmed, I think MJ’s 298 is just his way of “yanking Keachick’s chain.” I can’t imagine the studio would not distribute it in NZ based on their reception of movies released 10 years ago [or more].

301 Killamarsh, Khan’t … LOL

303 Barney, “One thing the critics always say about JJ Abram’s Trek is that the acting is always top notch. Zoe, Chris, Bruce, BC, Simon, Zachary, Karl, John all this guys bring their A-Game to Trek and that’s cool.” AGREED. If the acting wasn’t this great I don’t think I’d have seen either film multiple times.

305 Marshall, I agree – I feel “Avatar” was WAY overrated, although the SFX were top-notch. That is the only 3D movie I’ve seen that used 3D to good effect, you should pardon the expression. The story was terribly derivative and the plot holes, whew [“Avatar, HISHE” examines them well, and is funny to boot].

Re: Acting for film/TV … I saw an interview with Michael Caine years ago, in which he said that actors on film must express emotions through their eyes. Somehow the emotions come through and make the face and body follow suit. Actors going from “the outside in” – pulling faces – does not work well; it’s almost painful to watch and to me indicates poor directing and writing. But some actors – no matter how well-directed they are or how well-written their roles – just … don’t fill the bill. [One wonders how bad actors get hired when there are so many very talented actors out there. Sometimes I guess it truly is being in the right place at the right time with the right contacts, how sad.]

At any rate it takes a very talented, versatile actor to do both stage and screen; the “language” is almost completely different. Although actors in both must access internal feelings to express, the film acting has to come through in micro-expressions; while onstage, the body must speak. Of course the Brits have an amusing take on “accessing feelings” – I think it was Olivier who said something like, “I don’t believe in all that Method acting, feelings and all that. I just act!“

I don’t get my news from one source, in fact I watch & read from both sides & then make up my mind. And before this get way too political, lets move on.

———–

THANK GOD. Now, we can all argue about something more important: like when will Pine’s Kirk will use the classic ‘Double-handed Axe Drop’ or the ‘Rear-end Tackle’. And, yes, TOS Kirk did use his buttocks in a fight…

Re Avatar: I have to say Saldana’s acting as Neytiri, with all the motion capture and stuff, was just great. As for Worthington, her co-star, well, the less said the better. Suffice it to say, Saldana and Sigourney Weaver made the film bearable for me dramatically.

Re: Acting for film/TV … I saw an interview with Michael Caine years ago, in which he said that actors on film must express emotions through their eyes. Somehow the emotions come through and make the face and body follow suit. Actors going from “the outside in” – pulling faces – does not work well;

***

Well bless Michael Caine, I love the guy’s work, but not everybody has the stiff upper lip.

Some people are Anthony Hopkins and some people are Nick Cage, who’s put some of the coolest odd moments of acting on film, and it’s not a criticism. It’s personality.

To each their own. I’ve seen Nicole in Sleepy Hollow, Shame (which I just didn’t like in general) and 42. In all those performances I found her to be a very average actress, borderline annoying with, yes, making too many weird faces. My opinion, but it just makes it difficult for me to watch her and take her seriously.

I’m not quite sure what you mean when you say she is “just acting”. Even overacting is “just acting”, but it’s not a very good form of it..

Usually, if there is a release date named for Australia, then that will be NZ’s date as well. Sometimes this region is called Oceania.

All of the Jack Ryan movies have been screened on NZ television, the most popular being The Hunt for Red October. That is certainly my favourite movie of all of that series. However, the character of Jack Ryan (Alec Baldwin) got overshadowed by Sean Connery and Sam Neill because of how their characters were written and acted.

I have no problems with Nicole’s performance on Sleepy Hollow. I don’t think you can make a non-subjective case that she’s acting poorly as you can, for example, for the kind of “acting” I just found while watching one of the Friday the 13th movies.

She may personally annoy you the way Zoe Saldana’s performance in Avatar annoys me, but sometimes the fault lies not in the stars, but in ourselves.

Granted, it’s a comic book, so the art is not precise, but that’s undoubtebly supposed to represent Montalban’s Khan.

*********************

Two, Kirk states that Harrison/Khan claims to be “Khan Noonien Singh”.

So that leads to three conclusions:

1) Harrison/Khan is not really Khan Noonien Singh
2) Montalban was not really Khan Noonien Singh
3) Khan Noonien Singh had his appearance altered at some point to look like Harrison/Khan.

***********************

Option 3 seems what they are obviously going for. The whole trial and question thing seems to be an obvious ploy to faciliate a flashback scene, so we can see the whole story of Khan’s rise to power, and most likely delving into who found the Botany bay and his work for Section 31. Think Jake Sisko in “The Visitor.” To give the viewer access to how events led up to where they are, you typically need someone to tell the story to. Especially in this case, because no one can narrate his story for him (they’re all on ice). Since Khan is on ice at the end of the movie, you’ve got to wake him up before he can have a flashback. And the only reason to wake him up would be to try him. Hence Kirk’s clumsily starting the trial with “Who are you?” That should have been established before the trial started. *LOL*

Guys, it is really very simple. Khan went to a plastic surgeon to change his appearance. Given that we are talking about 23rd century medical science, the doctor was able to not only change his face, but also his voice & body shape.

On a side note, the comic looks really interesting. Looks like it might be a good alternate history story. I like the touch of adding Cogley on the court stuff, but like I said, that’s kind of silly. Kirk asking Khan who are you is an obvious ploy to tease the backstory reveal out of him. Who he is needed to be established WAY before they went to trial, and the defendant can’t speak during the prosecution’s opening statements *LOL* Much less go on a monologue that’s going to encompass multiple comic books.

But like I said, there aren’t a lot of options on how to do it better than that. It’d have to take place immediately prior to the events of the movie. I suppose you could have him talking with the guy with the sick daughter, explaining his background so he could convince him to let him heal her, but the guy would interrupt him halfway and say, “Look, I could care less what happened in New Delhi in 1971. All I want is for my daughter to be well.”

320. Ahmed – October 16, 2013
Guys, it is really very simple. Khan went to a plastic surgeon to change his appearance. Given that we are talking about 23rd century medical science, the doctor was able to not only change his face, but also his voice & body shape.

CASE CLOSED :)

****************************

If only it were that simple *LOL* I’ve opined endlessly that Starfleet surgeons make away teams look like aliens ALL THE TIME very easily, including altering their skin color (like when Bashir changed Obrien and human-bodied Odo into Klingons. He had to make their skin darker, unlike Sisko.) The average person could probably buy a do it yourself kit from Universo-Walmart.

I don’t know where they are going with this. But I’m hoping that rewriting genetic code doesn’t mean that the Federation’s clean air interacts with Khan’s genes and turns him into a Brit after several months outside of the pod.

LOL, Khan walks into Walmart as an Indian man & walk out as an Englishman :)

***********************************

Yeah, you could probably do it RIGHT there in the Universo-Walmart bathroom. Being Indian, it’s not like he hasn’t seen enough English-imported television to convincingly fake an accent. If Madonna can do it, a supergenius surely can.

But seriously, plastic surgery is the most viable theory behind the difference in appearance. Makes a lot more sense than anything else. I think that people’s aversion to it being Khan in the first place is what prohibits them from accepting that. Khan himself says that a new identity was created for him when he was unthawed. Some argue that no one would recognize Khan, but it seems obvious to me that someone could, otherwise they wouldn’t have bothered to give him a different identity. If most people didn’t know anything about Khan,and those who did woudln’t expect that he was the REAL Khan, why, he could have just called himself Khan Noonien Singh from the beginning.

Damn, I wish that were a possibility. Can I get a makeover to look like Salma Hayek or Zoe Saldana?

Both would involve a lot of body work and a change in eye color and improved hair …

; )

Sometimes the comics are reeedeeekulous. The way they dealt with Spock and Pon farr was really cheezy. And don’t get me started on aspects of the Mirror story – the art was the worst part of it. At least Uhura got a cool ending.

“Sometimes the comics are reeedeeekulous. The way they dealt with Spock and Pon farr was really cheezy. And don’t get me started on aspects of the Mirror story – the art was the worst part of it. At least Uhura got a cool ending”

Agreed, beside the fact that they kept reusing old TOS stories in the comics, the art work in the comics was so bad that I just gave up on the new comics altogether. They really need to hire new people to improve the art.

In the short comic portion, Kirk says that Harrison/Khan claims he is “Khan Noonien Singh”. I guess we will have to read the entire story to know, but Harrison/Khan in the movie never made such claim. The only person who mentions the name “Khan Noonien Singh” is Spock prime.

Yes, I think that it does make sense that Kirk (or whoever may be asking the questions) again ask “Who are you?” It appears that this 300 year old man’s identity is still in question and answers need to be asked and (hopefully) truthfully answered in a proper trial. After all, any witness giving evidence in a court proceeding is asked to publicly identify themselves – under OATH.

Up until then, this Harrison/Khan guy can say whatever he wants his name to be…

Yes, I think that it does make sense that Kirk (or whoever may be asking the questions) again ask “Who are you?” It appears that this 300 year old man’s identity is still in question and answers need to be asked and (hopefully) truthfully answered in a proper trial. After all, any witness giving evidence in a court proceeding is asked to publicly identify themselves – under OATH.
********************************

But as I remember, Kirk is giving the opening statement. You don’t talk to the defendant during the opening statement, you lay out the case for the jury or judges. If the defendant consents to take the stand, you ask them to identify themselves for the record, but their IDENTITY has to be established beforehand. No attorney gets up and asks that question without having a good idea of who the person is in the first place. If you’re not certain of who they are, you should have estalbished that prior to the trial.

For example, if you have an individual who is accused commiting acts of terror against the United States, and there’s some question about his identity because he’s a foreign citizen, you’re going to get all that straight (or as straight as you can) before the trial.

Now, in this case, Khan’s identity is relevant to the trial itself, not merely for bookkeeping purposes. But like I said, that wouldn’t happen in opening statements.

But to put it in perspective, it’s a minor quibble. I understand it’s forwarding the story. Thats why I pointed it out, to show that the trial is only a device to tell Khan’s backstory, because the miniseries is about Khan’s history and how he got up to that point. A trial is the best way to do it, and instead of having a bunch of legal jargon and procedure, they jumped right into asking Khan about his backstory.

Oh, and it’s relatively easy to get that kit before your birthday. All you have to do is:

1) Plan to have lots of children
2) Write letters to all of your future children now, giving a detailed account of where Bajor is.
3) Have them pass down the letters until interstellar travel is possible
4) Have them buy two kits from Universo-Walmart. One for you, and one to disguise themselves as Bajoran Vedeks so they can access the Orb of Time. Also, photocopy screen captures from DS9 so they can identify those Temporal Authority Agents and avoid them
5) They come back in time, give you your kit, and everything’s perfect!

The only trial I know of is what occurs in the IDW comics, of which only a small portion (a page) was linked to us here by a poster. The comics are not on sale yet – anywhere. That is my understanding.

What? These kits are not on sale here on earth as of now? I am shattered, to be sure. Do you think having three children is enough? Do I need to try for another? It still just might be possible, but nothing is certain. Where Bajor is? Do I need to dream this? Sometimes it is hard to recall the dreams I have and even then they make take some interpreting. I am still trying to work out where Menosia is…

333. Keachick – October 16, 2013
The only trial I know of is what occurs in the IDW comics, of which only a small portion (a page) was linked to us here by a poster. The comics are not on sale yet – anywhere. That is my understanding.

What? These kits are not on sale here on earth as of now? I am shattered, to be sure. Do you think having three children is enough? Do I need to try for another? It still just might be possible, but nothing is certain. Where Bajor is? Do I need to dream this? Sometimes it is hard to recall the dreams I have and even then they make take some interpreting. I am still trying to work out where Menosia is…

***************************

Sorry *L* No, they’re not available now. All we have is plastic surgery, wigs, and tanning formula.

Three may be enough, but the more offspring you have, the greater chance of your family surviving until the 23rd or 24th century. And the more chance you’ll have someone willing to risk the Temporal heat for doing so.

Bajor is near DS9. Where is DS9? I dunno, you’d have to buy one of those star chart books they have on sale.

On subject, the trial in the IDW comics is what I am talking about. I was the one that linked that page, but you will find the first eight pages if you just press the forward and backward arrows at the top of the link

330 Keachick, Haha as if some Section 31 secret operative would care. Although by that time don’t they have computers that can determine truth or lies? [“Wolf in the Fold” was ridden with new and silly inventions like that, almost as problematic as magic blood.]

Though good liars are quite able to contain the physiological responses of their bodies under pressure. I would think this’d be an ability taught to future spies.

334 Keachick, If you’re not writing fanfic about Menosia, you could be, and about the Enterprise crew exploring same.

I can’t imagine where it is either, but it sounds kind of interesting!
——————-
335 Leopard, I think the Federation star charts are available if one looks them up on Memory Alpha, or Google Star Trek Federation star charts … I know I’ve found them previously as references for fan fiction.

This Harrison/Khan could actually be a “shape shifter” – someone/thing like the new, improved versions we meet in the fourth season of Fringe. That could make it really hard to prove/disprove who this person says he is…

Scarlett Johansson could have been a great Carol Marcuss then LOL
obviously, they don’t choose an actress only because of one physical detail (it being the color of her skin or hair: there are tons of black actresses and blond girls, for that matter)
Nothing against Nicole, but I don’t think she’d make a better Uhura than Zoe’s (or if you’re a tos elitist, I don’t see her being so similar to Nichelle)
Zoe is a good actress and can communicate a lot with only her facial expressions, which for a character like Uhura and this particular story is quite fundamental.

Did you know that Adrien Brody could have been Spock? I’m glad Quinto got the part , though Adrien would be (as suggested by some fanarts I saw) a great Data if they reboot him too

anyway, all the talk about them needing to recast Zoe just because of the filming of avatar is a stretch. I think you’re confusing actors with directors: actors can do more than one movie in the same year and they in fact do that all the time. For them the more is the merrier.
Also, all the actors signed a contract for at least 3 movies.

OT-
Has anyone seen the commercials with ‘Trek’ appearances? A new one for the iphone 5c has a couple of fans dressed as Klingons speaking Klingon into their phone. And there’s another commercial for some wristwatch type web device that shows several fictional characters using wrist communicators including Captain Kirk from TMP. Pretty cool. Yeah we need, need, need a new Trek tv show! Star Trek Lives!

@304. Gary 8.5,
“There is no need to say that Montalban wasnt Khan. KNS simply had two different fates in two different timelines”

We’re talking about an in universe semi-canon explanation for why Harrison/Khan doesn’t look like Montalban/Khan. If we know Harrison/Khan claims to be KNS, and he doesn’t look anything like him, then there are only three explanations: he’s not Khan, he is Khan and Montalban wasn’t really Khan, he is Khan and had his appearance, race and accent changed at some point. Whatever their fates in different universes, their origins are now intertwined.

Saying Montalban wasn’t the “real” Khan doesn’t take anything away from him in those original stories. It merely changes the relationship to one similar to The Dark Knight, or Iron Man III. I can imagine a scenario where Harrison/Khan realized his appearance would keep him from effectively controlling the Middle East and Asia, so he became a shadow leader using his trusted lieutenant Montalban to be the face of his regime. This would also explain why Kirk could so easily take out Montalban, but couldn’t even get a reaction out of Harrison, all explained that in Space Seed, Harrison/Khan’s pod failed and the number two pod with Montalban was next in line.

Otherwise, Harrison wasn’t really Khan, which would be pointless if not a part of the film trilogy, leaving only an identity change. And if Orci does that he is just flat out guilty of whitewashing. Unfortunately, Orci and IDW have chosen to make the focus of this entire series of comics about Khan’s appearance. That is the initial premise that has been set up in the first 7 pages and the mystery that will drive the reader’s curiosity. Considering Orci said the choice of Cumberbatch was to take the focus off of his race so audiences could better identify with him, and keep from demonizing a person of color, to make it the focus of the story does nothing but undermine Orci’s claims. If Harrison started out as Cumberbatch then not only was Khan a person of color who Orci demonized, but he was blatantly whitewashed for no good reason — there is absolutely NO justification for changing a persons race if only trying to disguise their identity and certainly changing an accent is mystifying at best. Of course had Khan been played by a non-white actor, this whole issue of appearance might have never been raised.

The fact that Orci has chosen to make Khan’s appearance the main focus of these comics demonstrates that he was well aware that Montalban/Khan was not white, so those arguments can go away right now. Either that, or Orci is continuing to demonstrate that he is pandering to the fans, rather than sticking to his principles. I really hope he surprises me, in a way that he did not with my expectations for STID.

No like can I just have Salma Hayek’s EVERYTHING?? Please? Woman is perfect I think. The face, the body (omg the body!), the hair…all of it. And to think she’s like 45 and still looks like that great. There are few women in Hollywood I think are as beautiful as she. Ok I’m done now lol

Mat or whoever runs Trekmovie these days, but this topic has already been resolved as Bob Orci (welcome back) has piped in and debunked the rumor.

Now everyone is discussing the Khan comics but no actual topic yet to discuss. Considering thats litterally the first new story out of that universe since STID premiered and it officially went on sale in America today Im surprised there has not been a seperate topic made yet?

Im not trying to be rude, Im just curious of peoples opinions so far and this doesnt seem the appropriate place to discuss it, but as everyone is talking about it here means people really want to discuss it. But if you are already planning on making a topic for it…never mind.

As well Gary. It’s a true thrill to see how iconic Star Trek has become and remains. More so than EVER it would seem. We all speculate but I wonder what the real, true and actual reason there’s no new Trek on TV. It’s hard to believe there’s not money to be made with a new show. Did Paramount/CBS lose money with Enterprise?

@345. Ash
“No like can I just have Salma Hayek’s EVERYTHING?? Please?”

*ahem* This guy has made that request of the universe more that a few times. So far… :’-(

@351. Marja
“339 Daystrom, Hee-hee! Great idea! Or Gina Torres. She is just all-over gorgeous. So is curvaceous Christina Hendricks : )”

Oh Marja! The thoughts you’ve put in my head as I sip my morning coffee! TY!

@351. Marja,
“alas, Paramount probably does not have NEAR the budget Disney/Marvel has. I second you though, would love to see Hanks in Trek.”

I don’t really follow this. paramount spent as much or more than most action blockbusters this Summer. There is absolutely no reason why they couldn’t hire Hanks. Just cut one of the pointless, violent action scenes. Honestly, the whole trip to Kronos was pointless, other than to briefly get us off Earth. Khan could have just as easily been in a ship in Klingon space.

354, Curious, I was speaking of the budget for actors, but I agree on the pointless violent action scenes! I’m not sure if parts of movie budgets are “reserved/dedicated” like government budgets [a budget for materiel, a budget for repairs to aircraft, a budget for aircraft, &c., you can’t pull from one to pay for the other], but we’ve heard that Paramount’s cutting the Trek budget for next time, haven’t we?

So we’ll see if they’re able to pay an actor of Hanks’s caliber – unless he’s willing to work for a little less to satisfy his inner Trekker.

But gosh it would be great fun!

That Kronos scene probably cost a mint – all the Klingons rappelling from all the Klingon ships, all the costumes, special FX … at least they could say they got out into space : P Oh yeah that and going to Jupiter. Wow big space adventures
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“354, Curious, I was speaking of the budget for actors, but I agree on the pointless violent action scenes! I’m not sure if parts of movie budgets are “reserved/dedicated” like government budgets [a budget for materiel, a budget for repairs to aircraft, a budget for aircraft, &c., you can’t pull from one to pay for the other], but we’ve heard that Paramount’s cutting the Trek budget for next time, haven’t we? ”

To hire an A-list actor like Tom Hanks will increase the above-the-line costs (the money that is paid to director, actors & writers) dramatically from what they were doing so far.

Most of the budget of STID went into what is known as below-the-line costs, which include visual, sound effects & all the technical & logistical parts of making a movie.

@360. Perhaps the next Trek movie could focus on space piracy. Then they cold thaw out a different Khan warrior….and surprise, it’s Captain Phillips (played by Hanks) from the 21st century , who they need to remind them how to fight piracy successfully in the wimpy 23rd century….

“@360. Perhaps the next Trek movie could focus on space piracy. Then they cold thaw out a different Khan warrior….and surprise, it’s Captain Phillips (played by Hanks) from the 21st century , who they need to remind them how to fight piracy successfully in the wimpy 23rd century….”

Being new to this site, my impression from reading those posts was that this Sebastian guy had a chip on his shoulder from past conversations here with the MJ person, and was artificially trying to make some big deal out of MJ’s wording.

Sebastian mentioned that he is a professional critic, and we know how unwelcome it is for many professional critics when people actually have the audacity to criticize their reviews and opinions. They generally don’t handle criticism well, and you don’t dare use the word, “credibility,” with them, as this MJ person so painfully found out.

Some nice character artwork on show, and I’m keen to see how succesfully J.J.- ‘Khan’s ‘change in appearance’ etc. from TOS-‘Khan’ is resolved eventually.

Personally, I’d far rather that they somehow DON’T turn out to be one and the same ‘Khan’ after all…but that’s just wishful thinking on my part. Some extreme ‘makeover surgery’ will no doubt be the ‘explanation’, but it will be interesting to see exactly how the comic portrays things eventually, regardless.

I guess there’ll be a dedicated article devoted to this soon enough…and hopefully it won’t end up being closed prematurely due to any ;ongoing drama’!

@368 (Ahmed): I read it. Too early to say if the series will be a good read, but I am liking what I am reading.

But, as to Khan’s change of appearance, I choose ‘Option 4′: Section 31 has access to the machine from the TOS episode, ‘The Turnabout Intruder’, and Khan switched bodies. After all, Khan did say that Marcus made a push to find alien technology that he could exploit. It will also explain how Section 31 could still be active (as indicated by what’s going on in the regular Star Trek comic), even though Kirk says that Section 31 is being rooted out.

“It will also explain how Section 31 could still be active (as indicated by what’s going on in the regular Star Trek comic), even though Kirk says that Section 31 is being rooted out.”

Thanks for the feedback. I find it interesting that they are trying to eliminate Section 31 but I guess they will not go through that process. After all they need Section 31 to do the kind of work that can’t be done by Starfleet officers.

“Thanks for the feedback. I find it interesting that they are trying to eliminate Section 31 but I guess they will not go through that process. After all they need Section 31 to do the kind of work that can’t be done by Starfleet officers.”

Getting rid of section 31 is like trying to get rid of cancer. When you think you radiated it, it will find a way to come back more deadlier. Its been there from the beginning its not going anywhere.

And I guess there isnt going to be a new topic about the comic books soon so this will be the place.

Just thinking out loud here. Could the next Star Trek movie take a “Days of Future Past” route and try to do some sort of bridge between the two timelines and use characters from both timelines like the new x-men film is going to do? It’s probable that the 3rd film may be the last one for a while so why not go for broke and get wacky with it. One huge Trek all-star blowout.

And not just Kirk and crew, but characters from all the Trek series. Just one big almighty clusterfrack of a film. Have T’Pol, Tuvok, Old and new Spock in a scene together. Have Bashir and McCoy together in sick bay. Trip back from the dead working with Torres and Scotty and O’Brien putting their heads together in Engineering.

And wrap it all in a big war movie bigger than the Dominion war. Just throw everything at the wall. Chances are there will be a long long gap between the next film and a 4th unless the 3rd one does big business much bigger than the last 2 films so why not just make the biggest trek movie ever as the big blowout 50th anniversary tie a bow around it “valentine” to the entire franchise only not crappy like the enterprise finale extravaganza.

@ #371 Dswynne – while I personally prefer to look on ‘The Next Gen’ series/movies…and everything else that followed, including J.J.’s movies…as occurring in a completely ‘alternate’ universe to the events shown in the original ‘TOS’ series/movies (up until ‘The Undiscovered Country’)…I certainly like your speculation that ‘Khan’s appearance was due to a ‘body-switch’ thanks to ‘Turnabout Intruder’ technology!

I’d prefer to see a possible ‘body-switch’ notion used for the John Harrison ‘Khan’s appearance, instead of an extreme ‘makeover surgery’ explanation, that’s for sure. And if that proves to be the case, then I really hope that it’s somehow clarified in the next reboot movie too!!

This still wouldn’t get me to alter my own little *imaginary* ‘Trek’ canon of course, but I’d certainly look on STID with a little less annoyance if the John Harrison ‘Khan’ appearance is revealed to be due to this ‘body-switch’ technology in it’s sequel…

I didn’t come out with the credibility insults in the other thread; that was dear old MJ (who now washes his hands of all responsibility). He came out swinging, not me. All I did was post a comment about how much I enjoyed “Unification” and MJ came down on me like a ton of lard.

I’ve posted here in other threads and I generally have no issues until MJ comes in, sniffing for fresh meat….

# 368 Capt. Robau~
And I never said I was a professional critic; I said I was NOT a professional critic (READ my post before you attempt to quote it, OK?), and that my opinion is just that… MY opinion only. Not gospel. I thought we were entitled to those here, weren’t we? Guess not with MJ and RDR acting as de facto moderators…

At any rate, I am sick of MJ (and others) ret-conning what happened and making it sound like they were utterly blameless.

Ahmed~

I read your defense of my opinion, and I wanted to thank you for that.
At least ONE person read my posts without prejudice. You’re a decent guy. Much obliged. ;-)

If any of you who are blaming me for the closed thread actually bothered to READ my very first post in it, you will see that there was NOTHING about it that warranted MJ to start in on me and say that my opinion (and that’s ALL it was) has ‘no credibility’ because I don’t prefer STID; it was not even an STID thread.

And he never offered me an apology (nor do I insist on one; unlike RDR, who thinks everyone owes everyone else one). MJ said he chose the ‘high road’ (we see how long that lasted; about a minute and a half).
But you read MJ’s posts and he’s utterly blameless…

Just wanted to clear that up.
This is my last post on this subject, so throw as many spears as you wish. I don’t care and won’t be coming back to this thread.

BTW; the new Khan comic sounds interesting. Even though I didn’t enjoy the ret-Khan of the movie, I am curious to see how they contort TOS’ Space Seed backstory to fit into the inconsistencies of STID. I’ll read it when it comes together in a collector’s volume someday…

That’s an interesting idea but then it puts a whole new spin on the “healing properties” of his blood as Khan is no longer in his original genetically superior body.

The problem your solution needs to address is McCoy analyzed Harrison’s blood and found it human with surprising recuperative powers. The only candidate I can come up with is Khan body jumped into Flint (before Flint left Earth) but what supreme irony that Prime Flint wasted all that time trying to perfect an Android for a mate when all he needed to keep one of his wives alive as long as him was a cocktail of his own blood. Also Prime Flint was detected to be aging normally on his planetoid by Prime McCoy. Now in REQUIEM FOR METHUSELAH McCoy speculated but did not conclusively prove that it was because Flint left Earth’s atmosphere. You might address that by some exposition in which altFlint never bought his planetoid because Federation sensors, improved since the Nero incursion, determined it was contaminated by some whatnot.

@288 – MJ “August: Osage County just bombed.” I’m curious about this comment given that the film hasn’t even been released yet. What’s your criteria for bombing and your source of information?

As for “The Fifth Estate”, the film is getting so-so reviews, but Cumberbatch’s performance is being lauded pretty much across the board. He’s only on the cover of the new TIME magazine (the international edition).

@371. Dswynne,
“But, as to Khan’s change of appearance, I choose ‘Option 4′: Section 31 has access to the machine from the TOS episode, ‘The Turnabout Intruder’, and Khan switched bodies. After all, Khan did say that Marcus made a push to find alien technology that he could exploit.”

Unless you are suggesting Khan switched bodies with one of the 72 others on board the Botany Bay, then refroze his old body, then no; this won’t work, as much as I would like it to. Far prefer something “Star Trek” over some uninspired hackneyed, Hollywood soap opera, plastic surgery makeover, which doesn’t explain why his race was changed; nor his accent — which by the way is also not explained by a body switch.

But Khan is a genetically superior superman, so he can’t just switch bodies with anybody, unless he then genetically enhances the new body. So I can go with “option 4″ with some further modifications to the scenario. The comic preview is suggesting, though it is far from clear, that the genetic engineering performed on Khan happened when Khan was a teenager — he was not born enhanced. If this is the case, then Khan’s blood could be a genetic catalyst that causes mutations in normal humans, in the way the Klingons were mutated in Enterprise. So Khan genetically enhances a guy named John Harrison, and using 23rd century technology makes him even better than he had been (which explains how Kirk was able to beat him in Space Seed). This also explains why he has to speak with a British accent, as he’s pretending to be somebody else — unfortunately John Harrison didn’t exist past a year prior to STID. But that means Khan’s body is likely still stashed away somewhere.

I doubt Khan would have been willing to body swap with another of his people, but who knows, maybe Marcus forced him to do it. Maybe Khan selected Joachim, his number two. He still could have enhanced the body further using current technology to explain certain anomalies. Unfortunately this still doesn’t explain his accent, even after he drops the pretense that he is Harrison. Also, that means Khan’s “Montalban” body is frozen in one of the 72 cryo tubes. Since Khan’s identity is the main question in the comic, and they have a picture of ‘MontalKhan’, one would think after even a quick review of the cryotubes they would have discovered the frozen man who looked just like the picture, in which case Kirk would have revealed this fact.

So it’s possible but not without resolving several other problems along the way. I’m more concerned with the fact we seem to be in an alternate 1971, where sophisticated genetic engineering has been around for “years”. DNA manipulation was simply not possible prior to about 1974, as the technology literally did not exist in our universe. In which case all bets are off.

It is the apologists for the filmmakers who seek to reconcile canon with Khan’s portrayal in STID, and while I find the exercise interesting, it’s also kind of sad. The hard core fans need to accept that these films are a complete reboot, that has absolutely nothing to do with any Star Trek canon that came before. Khan looks different because he is not the same Khan seen in Space Seed and TWOK. That is the only satisfying explanation, unless Orci is able to genuinely surprise us, which he was sadly unable to do with STID, which he had over 4 years to concoct (at least for me, and dozens of other who correctly speculated most of the main plot points well in advance of its release).

ANYTHING is possible in a comic book. Peter Parker can be bitten by a radioactive spider and become Spiderman. Bruce Banner can be exposed to gamma radiation and turn into a giant green Hulk every time he gets angry. Kirk can be a prosecutor in a Khan trial.

@378 (Cervantes): Unfortunately, at this point, it’s purely speculative. However, the reason why I chose Option 4 is due to the time frame for when Marcus found Kahn and his crew, and when Khan went rogue (i.e. one year). So, unless that time frame is wrong, it would take come exotic technology to radically change not only a person’s appearance, but also change a person’s voice inflection/accent/whatever.

Speaking of “The Turnabout Intruder”, I wonder if this episode, whether or not it’s the reason for Khan’s change of appearance, will be depicted in the regular Star Trek comic as a homage. So far, there have been some classic TOS episodes depicted in the series (i.e. “Where No Man Has Gone Before”, “Arena”, “Return of the Archons”, and “Operation: Annihilate”).

@383 (Curious Cadet): Again, it’s pure speculation on my part, based upon what has been presented thus far, and certainly based upon the dialogue. At this point in the Khan story, anything is possible, including a “body switch”, which does not have to mean Khan switching with another member of his 72 “augments”. As indicated by the comic, Khan was not grown to be an augment, but was given the equivalent of a “super soldier serum” and training to become augmented. No doubt Khan and his crew would be intimately familiar with the process, after turning on his handlers.

And that brings up an even scarier prospect. If Section 31 knows the process of how Khan came to be, I would not put it past them to have a cadre of operatives who have been augmented as well. Or, that the Augments run Section 31. After all, Khan was a product of his time, and that doesn’t mean that the Augments of the 23rd century would have the same mindset or goals. Though, it could be possible that, having learned from history, Augments of the 23rd century would created conditions where they would have a happy, well-adjusted society of humans who are the forefront of Federation politics, with the Augments calling the shots as the rams to the “sheeple”, who would be protected from the wolves (i.e. the Klingons).

Wait a minute. The TNG era is controlled by Augments! It make perfectly sense, given the context of Roddenberry’s utopia. Oh. My. GAWD! NOOOOOOOOO-!

Heh, just kidding. I tend to be a comic book “nerd” about these things. Moving on…

@383 MORE^^^^
While this is not conclusive as its a comic book after all, but more proof that this is an alternate past from our own:

The NY skyline is shown in January 1972, and the World Trade Center Twin Towers are shown under construction — however, both towers had been topped out by this point and tenants had already moved into both towers. In the comic, neither is shown to be topped out, and one is only shown at half height. This looks to be closer to our actual 1970 than 1972.

Mike Johnson has already alluded to the fact that there might be an aspect of alternate reality here in interviews, further suggesting the entire AU is a complete reboot rather than an offshoot of previous canon.

I had some thoughts on which genetically superior human outside of Khan and his augment legacy that might be but it went into moderation and I choose to patiently wait for it to pop up rather than reiterate.

However, another dilemma occurs to me: who is in control of Lester’s Katra swapper in this scenario? If it’s Marcus why would he swap Khan into a physically super body that makes him harder to manage? If it’s Khan then he has a similar problem that I see with his having access to a transwarp transporter, why is he making deals with outside parties to deliver an explosive device when he could just swap-in, deliver the device, activate it, and swap-out?

I suppose if it is Marcus then Khan could use his knowledge of genetic engineering and Fed tech to juice whatever body he’s stuck with, up on the QT?

Of course, *all* of Star Trek is an AU to ours. I like to think that FRINGE can be seen as an guidestar for a way of reconciling every inconsistency in Star Trek, pasts, presents, and futures.

We didn’t have orbital nuke platforms in the 60’s either (at least that we knew of!), and Captain Christopher wasn’t flying intercept fighters out of Omaha, nor was Edith Keeler running a mission during the 30’s.

@386. We can assume the transwarp transporter device was a one-time-use only device that utilized all of the “green kryptonite” available to Section 31. It was designed by Khan’t, and now he refuses to explain how it worked. Even Scotty can’t quite figure it out. Turns out, it’s made from advancetheplottium.

368 Captain Robau, well, certain opinions are only painful to people if they don’t consider the source, or (as you say) if they’ve had a lot of bad history with the source.

To me it gets ridiculously personal, but I put some of it down to stubborn male pride. And skip on down as Sundance said to Butch.
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371 DSWynne, Dang, GREAT RETCON : D

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376 Tiger, Yeah, I think Section 31 could be c/w the US CIA. Never going to go away, and some of its functions are duplicated in the NSA, IMO. So if Sec 31 goes away, there will be another covert organization to replace it.
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377, Mike Johnson, I second the Carol Marcus idea. Lots of good fanfic on this, and her interest in a weapons specialty, many think, is because her father was initially not so crazeee, and perhaps had interest in this technology himself. Could have been a father-daughter bonding experience for Carol, ostensibly separated from her British mother. If Carol’s to be a continuing character – and I think she will be – it would be a great thing to show us her background.

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382 Classy M, well thank goodness, b/c I was really looking forward to “..Osage County” … I mean c’mon, Chris Cooper and Meryl Streep, could either actor turn in a crappy performance, really?
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383 Curious, “Unless you are suggesting Khan switched bodies with one of the 72 others on board the Botany Bay, then refroze his old body, then no; this won’t work, as much as I would like it to. Far prefer something “Star Trek” over some uninspired hackneyed, Hollywood soap opera, plastic surgery makeover, which doesn’t explain why his race was changed; nor his accent — which by the way is also not explained by a body switch.”

I like this idea because I can’t imagine Khan switching into any kind of being he didn’t trust 100%, nor anyone who wasn’t one of the “faithful.”

385 Curious, and perhaps the changes to the early 1970s [WTC opened in 1971, I believe] are because when Nero entered the AU, there were “timewaves” that shook the web of existence in the AU? Aww, crap, that’s really silly though. Because in the trope of time travel, if we disturb the past we affect the present, and the future …

@391 (The Sinfonian): Or, it doesn’t matter at this point, since it will never be explained in the next movie. Still, you should read the novel tie-in, which explains how transwarp transporters actually work in a way that makes a lot of sense, if you REALLY need an explanation. Personally, nuTrek is different from PrimeTrek, so the rules that we old fans are used to do not apply in this case. Besides, seriously, what type of person that gets so bent out of shape over an apparent plothole, as depicted in a MOVIE. Sheesh.

You guys gotta stop thinking in terms of a single canon TOS universe. I keep trying to tell you that the “author” creates the “timeline” for his story by picking and choosing which of a number of paths to follow at every junction point where each possibility branches off in a different direction for each distinct MWI universe.

There’s no such thing as “A” timeline anymore, except that which each author of a story creates BY the act of telling his story.

@379 (Cervantes): Yeah, I agree. Having “Old Spock” shunt into an already-established alternate timeline is better than simply creating one at a single point in time. Old fans like us wouldn’t be trying to wrap our collective heads over nuTrek in general, and Bad Robot’s production choices in particular. And while I did like the new movies in nuTrek, I’m tired having to battle other fans over what constitutes “real” Star Trek. Ultimately, I really hope that, moving forward, future ‘Trek outings will at least respect the legacy of ‘Trek, to not re-invent ‘Trek to something that is unappealing to older fans, while still making those outings appealing to a new generation of fans. Bob Orci and company definitely have my sympathies in their attempt to strike a balance in this regard…

Everyone keeps thinking that there is one person named Khan out of all those 73 people found on that ship. Khan can be a title and it can also be a family name (surname). John Harrison is probably a Khan (title and surname) but not the same man who Kirk had dealings with in TOS Space Seed/TWOK.

As I keep saying, Khan Noonien Singh is someone prime Spock spoke of and also in both STID and the comic (so far as I have read from the link) there is no mention of a ship called the Botany Bay. Harrison/Khan could have retconned his name to be Khan Noonien Singh, after hearing what prime Spock has said about another man who called himself that name.

I could get a lot of egg on my face – be gentle with me if that is the case…:), but I maintain that this Harrison/Khan is part of a larger family calling themselves Khan (title and surname), who are also his crew. Initially, the family were North Indian (hence the name), however many intermarried and this Harrison/Khan is the descendant of an North Indian/Anglo-Saxon relationship. He has inherited the lighter skin and blue eyes from his Anglo-Saxon/Celtic ancestry but he still sees himself to be as much a Khan as any darker skinned family relation eg cousins.

I see this all the time here in NZ, among those with *Pakeha/Maori ancestry.

However, I suspect that the story from the comic is a bit more convoluted than this…oh dear…when one of the obvious questions could be answered so easily…

The alternate timeline shown in the first film showed some dramatic differences from the “prime” universe. This has continued in the comic series, where some familiar stories from TOS have begun to depart greatly from the original source. Johnson says this is by design:

“Johnson: It’s the ‘butterfly flaps its wings, causes a hurricane’ analogy. We started off with small deviations, but as we proceed, we’re getting further and further from the original timeline. Issues #9 and #10, ‘The Return of the Archons,’ is an example of how the new timeline diverges significantly from the original story. The last movie was the butterfly. This series builds up to the hurricane that is the next movie…the stories will depart further and further from the original series. We will use a few original series concepts as jumping off points, but the new timeline is moving in a radically different direction.”

This could lead in all sorts of different directions. If the timeline keeps deviating more and more from the “prime” one, then any situations and characters from TOS could appear wildly different in this timeline, which would explain why Cumberbatch’s character may be from canon (as writer Bob Orci said in recent TrekMovie interview), but may behave in a much different way than his “prime” counterpart.

Khan who?

Near the end of the interview, Johnson gets asked about a certain genetic superman – and we don’t learn much:

Nrama: Any chance we’ll see Khan soon?
Johnson: Who?
Nrama: Right. Well let me rephrase… when you do get around to telling a story about Khan, will his appearance tie into the movie sequel?
Johnson: You’re breaking up.
Nrama: Well, you can’t blame me for asking, can you?
Johnson: Nope, I can’t.

396 Duncan, THANK YOU – that is my opinion too. Everything will branch depending on the decisions of individuals. The butterfly effect.

394 Disinvited, Ooops sorry, I had an interruption as I was responding to yr post [I usually make long ones myself and was trying to break them up into bites this time]. Will have time to read later in more detail and will respond, sorry o_O

So the Khan comics are trying to explain the white-washing of an ethnic character in Trek. Those comics should really come watchable on the Blu-Ray as a footnote to an incomplete and seriously flawed story. You want your movie to make sense? Spend more $$. Nah. Include it as extras. This is insulting. Especially considering the blu-ray had no extras on disc….

Yes indeed…this is what I keep saying…that the original TOS series (and it’s related movies up to and including ‘The Undiscovered Country’) are obviously one such universe…while *everything else* (including ‘Generations’) which is ‘Trek’-related is from some other ‘alternate’ universe! ;)

Dswynne, I forgot to add previously that I would prefer the ‘body-switch’ scenario better not just because I think an extreme ‘makeover surgery’ solution is a more lazy, inferior explanation…but also because as well as being a superior solution as to why J.J.-‘Khan’ is ‘white’ now, rather than ‘Indian’-looking as the TOS-‘Khan’ was…it also allows me to *imagine* that the new ‘John Harrison’ body causes the change in TOS-‘Khan’s accent due to the difference in ‘vocal chords’… :)

Naturally, the actors portraying J.J.’s ‘altered timeline’ nu-‘TOS’ crew don’t have the exact facial-features as the ones that starred in the original TOS series/movies anyway…so I didn’t matter to me that his nu-‘Khan’ didn’t have the exact same features as Ricardo Montalban either.

But what *did* matter to me was that since the makers went ahead and re-used ‘Khan’s character too, was the fact that the supposed ‘altered timeline’ nu-‘Khan’ *didn’t end up looking anything like he was from the same race as Montalban’s character portrayed.

Not that it’s a big a deal for me at the end of the day, as I just ‘retcon’ it all with my ‘multi-Trek universe’ scenario, where the original TOS series/’Wrath Of Khan’ movie are showing a *different* set of characters altogether. :)

I have to admit even under the old “Prime” time travel “rules” which may be a bit of an overstatement, I was always aware that when they went back they were changing things that was making the timeline with which they traveled back the future “alternate”.

CITY ON THE EDGE OF FOREVER hints at it, that there are alternate timelines, and MIRROR, MIRROR confirmed it.

So, I’d have to agree with you that every time a Trek series jumped into the timestream they were creating (time)lines of divergence from each other.

389. Disinvited,
“If it’s Marcus why would he swap Khan into a physically super body that makes him harder to manage?…I suppose if it is Marcus then Khan could use his knowledge of genetic engineering and Fed tech to juice whatever body he’s stuck with, up on the QT?”

Yes exactly. In this scenario, Marcus likely swapped Khan into a new body to make him easier to control while retaining his intellect. Smart move, except he didn’t understand that nature of Khan’s development … assuming Khan was developed grown from a genetically modified embryo like the Enterprise Augments, when instead he was genetically modified sometime in the early 70s as a teenager. So Khan just set about genetically modifying his new host body.

I imagine he would be skull crushingly angry about that little trick of Marcus’.

The only thing it doesn’t explain is his continued use of the British accent. So that one I guess we just have to attribute to the actor, as if they had hired Sean Connery to play Khan, just as Montalban spoke with a Spanish accent.

Yes, we will seeing more of Carol’s backstory, as well as Science Officer 0718 (who is now in a big fancy TV commercial with Sulu!) and Kai (the big Orion dude who is the brother of Gaila from the 2009 movie. Did I just spill that now? I may have.)

I agree, Marja. Without spoiling too much of what’s coming, we can infer from her accent that she was raised in the UK – but that doesn’t necessarily mean Marcus was there for all of it. Also consider her appeal to him in STID (with tears in her eyes) as he threatened to blow up the Ent. It’s a picture of a child suddenly and shockingly disillusioned, which suggests she once adored him. She joined Starfleet, after all. The family business.

“Kai (the big Orion dude who is the brother of Gaila from the 2009 movie.”

Hmm, if deleted scenes are canon, he’s going to want to kill Kirk.

” which suggests she once adored him. She joined Starfleet, after all. The family business.”

So in the Prime universe did she hate him? Although many people assume that the one line in WNMHGB is referring to Carol, which would mean that she probably was in Starfleet at some point.

One thing I would like to say regarding the first issue of the Klingon story (which I’ve only read the preview for, I’m waiting for the full collection) is that I get the feeling the story is going to end badly for one of the characters, and I hope I’m wrong. Somehow I feel more connected to this version of the crew than the original. And by that I’m talking about the whole crew, not just the main characters. So when a redshirt gets vaporized in TOS it doesn’t really effect me, but when something like that happens in this timeline it does. So my point with all of this is that I want this story to have a happy ending, no a depressing one.

@415. Captain Slow,
“So in the Prime universe did she hate him? Although many people assume that the one line in WNMHGB is referring to Carol, which would mean that she probably was in Starfleet at some point.”

My presumption is this:

In the Prime Universe presumably Marcus was also April’s first officer on the Enterprise. In the alternate universe we know Pike stayed behind after a mission to defend its inhabitants from the Klingons. Marcus covered for April, and his career deviated considerably from the direction it likely went in the Prime universe where April went on to be a respected ambassador. So I imagine in the Prime universe Marcus got promoted through the normal ranks, became a captain and was never home. Did Carol hate him? Probably not, but Starfleet took her father from her, so there’s resentment toward her father choosing Starfleet over her as well as the organization responsible. Did that keep her out of Starfleet? Doubtful. In order to get closer to her father she may have joined at 18. But in the Prime universe it would have been a very different experience as her father might not have been around to encourage her, so she never got what she was looking for, and became disillusioned with the bureaucracy. Also, Kirk was not in the Academy in the alt universe as he would have been in the Prime. Perhaps that relationship with Kirk is what finally drove her out of Starfleet, yet one more man she loved, who was being taken away from her by Starfleet, and worse chose it over her. Perhaps that alone was enough to sour her on it. Getting pregnant, (intentionally? determined to have someone in her life she could control — and let’s face it, David was a momma’s boy) gave her a natural exit. Alt Carol had none of that. Admiral Marcus was likely a desk bound bureaucrat, who showered his little girl with love and attention. She confidently climbed the ranks, focused on her career, only meeting Kirk well after she had become entrenched in Starfleet. She may still leave following the disillusionment over her father, and another presumed failed relationship with Kirk. However, she might also stay to help rebuild an organization she now believes in given her different background. This all fits perfectly with established canon. Unlike a certain superman …

Hmmm….I think a reasonable explanation would be in SPACE SEED Khan is speaking Earth English of the century of his launch and the Enterprise crew is responding likewise since apparently it is a part of Future Earth’s grade school education? However, in STID clearly Khan couldn’t function in his invented persona doggedly speaking his ancient mother tongue everywhere and in the 2009 movie it seems clear to me that the Federation’s universal translator isn’t yet up to snuff (However Nero’s Prime universal translator was). To pass as a Federation citizen he’d have to be educated in the current lingo and it is that which he learned at Federation Earth’s London education centers which he is speaking with an “English” accent?

Honestly at some point we just have to let some things go. Actors accents are accents, they don’t matter until they do. Khan’s accent doesn’t really matter, Scotty’s does.

I understand what you are trying to do, but that’s a stretch of all stretches (though fairly logical considering your rationale).

The fact is, the producers went out of their way to cast actors who resembled everyone we’ve seen from original canon — except Khan. They’ve set a precedent that they blatantly ignored on the one character (aside from Prime Spock) that would actually be unchanged by Nero’s incursion.

I don’t take this retcon exercise seriously, it’s just fun. It took me a while to realize, but Abrams Trek is a reboot plain and simple, despite what Orci (and I believe it is only Orci) says about QM MWI. There are NO hard ties to previous canon whatsoever. In fact your explanation for Khan’s current accent actually highlights one of the problems — Hosi Sato invented the universal translator and by the end of Enterprise it was working flawlessly, 100 years earlier. The fact that it no longer works flawlessly in ST09 means that it never happened in this universe. Why did Pike need a communications officer who could understand Romulan? The universal translator on ENT could easily distinguish between Vulcan and Romulan (perhaps it was conveniently malfunctioning on the new Enterprise in STID?).

However, since I started writing this I’ve softened. So I’ll play. I believe you assume correctly that the English language 300 years from now will be similar to that of 300 years ago. It won’t be as bad because air travel and the Internet will ensure that dialects remain more consistent than a society that largely evolved in isolation in the past. If anything there will mostly be colloquial words and phrases that won’t have meaning to us today. So Khan would have to learn that, which considering his strong personality, would likely have little impact on his accent. He certainly couldn’t walk around relying on a universal translator anyway since presumably people hear what he’s really saying along with the translation, and it would have the same effect as talking to Ben Franklin were he transported to the present (or spending a day at Colnial Wlliamsburg). But I seriously doubt a guy like Khan who could learn how a starship works in a couple of days, would have any problem cleaning up his English vocabulary in a matter of hours, much less taking classes or even using the 23rd century equivalent of Rosetta Stone. My guess is Khan could speak all of the languages of the territories he ruled fluently, including English, French and a few other major languages of the world he needed to communicate with fellow supermen. Moreover, Khan presumably spent most of his time conversing with Marcus, so if he were going to affect any accent as a result of reeducating himself with English, it would have been “good ol’ boy” using your argument.

But the bottom line for me, is that Khan was a proud self-assured character. He’s like Sean Connery who dared to play a Soviet Submarine commander with a Scottish Accent — he’s that confident in who he is. And I never questioned it once during the movie. Khan is not going to subjugate himself for long, especially if he doesn’t have to. He’s too proud of his heritage, as seen in Space Seed and not at all in STID (hmmm, is he really KNS?).

And considering his heritage, I might even believe Khan natively spoke with an English accent. Had they cast him appropriately, I would have accepted that as a retcon. But they didn’t, and now as far as I’m concerned if Orci’s really going to foolishly try to explain Khan’s appearance change in-universe, after the real-world rationale he gave in defense of the casting choice, just to reconcile the fiction of his own QM MWI fabrication (which no longer holds water as far as I’m concerned), then I’m going to hold his feet to the fire and he has to explain it all, so that a child won’t laugh at it and call BS.

If CBS came to you and asked you to create/produce a Trek series, but with the proviso that it be in the Prime timeline, would you still be interested? Or is your interest solely predicated on doing a series set in the alternate ‘verse of the recent movies?

And just to emphasize to all concerned, I’m not asking Bob to commit to *anything* by answering. It’s just a “what if” question, okay? :)

Kirk: He claims to be this man. The 20th century tyrant known as Khan Noonien Sing. And yet the defendant looks nothing like him So I ask the defendant directly to tell us who he really is. To tell us the truth.

Khan: As you wish, captain. Here. Now. With the entirety of your so-called Federation listening… I give you the truth.

You response was excellent but you forgot one thing, Federation citizens (and its starship personnel) aren’t speaking English as their universal language but something I believe called intragalactic which viewers conveniently have translated back into English or whatever language they choose available on their discs? Its that intragalactic lingo that I believe Khan has learned with a British accent which is being carried through on the English soundtrack.

Mike Johnson, If you’re reading this, can we please see Gaila again, and can she please be a good Starfleet officer, instead of JUST a sex kitten. The sex thing could be played for some humor, but I hate for that to be her whole character – as it was in one of the Starfleet Academy books.

Please Mike, and BobOrci, if you’re reading this, I hope Gaila survived the “Battle of Vulcan” by escaping after an abandon ship order. Many of us would LOVE to see her again. She seems to be a “light-bearing” personality – one who brings happiness [no, not just THAT kind].

But this gives me a chance to ask a question to the international fans: I suspect this is something never addressed in alternate language dubbing in general, but out of curiosity, are the Carol Marcus and Khan “British” accents carried over in the alternate language dubs for STID? To be clear, I am asking in their French or Spanish (or others) language dubs do those two characters speak French or Spanish with the accent of a Brit speaking this non-native tongue in a less than flawless manner?

@422. Disinvited,
“Federation citizens (and its starship personnel) aren’t speaking English as their universal language but something I believe called intragalactic which viewers conveniently have translated back into English or whatever language they choose available on their discs?”

I don’t think this is canon in any respect. According to Memory-Alpha, English is widely spoken throughout Starfleet, and even made canon in both Enterprise and TOS. When Khan was first awoken in Space Seed he specifically says “English. I thought I dreamed hearing it”. Now unless in the 25 years since Nero’s arrival, the entire Federation learned this brand new “intergalactic” language that is so different from English that Khan has to take a special class to learn it, then I’d say they’re almost all speaking English.

———————-
@424. Disinvited,

Very interesting point about dubbing. However, within all languages there are different regional accents relative to British English, American English, Australian English, etc. If Khan’s dubbed voice speaks with a flawless Spanish, or French, et al, accent; the question is, what kind kind of accent? That’s the interesting question, are they translating the accent relative to their own language, and how are they doing that? We tend to see British as refined, is that how other countries see it relative to the US, et al? It’s really hard to imagine they would do dubs with native language accents, since that would be distracting to the audience (bad enough the words don’t fit the lip movements). Now, Scotty is a really interesting one. Not only does he speak colloquial phrases that can’t translate easily to other languages, but with an accent that’s almost essential to the character.

@421. Captain Slow,
“All of that would seem to imply that he’s not really Khan.”

It also implies that Khan has been lying.

However, I don’t think we can assume too much from those lines, other than Khan has been lying, or not answering questions fully (lie of omission). He could very easily explain how he came to look as he does and still be KNS.

I would like nothing better than to see Harrison not be KNS, as I was the first to propose that here, but I don’t think that’s Orci’s intent. He made the comment in an interview that Harrison is the same Khan as appeared in TWOK. So unless Orci is lying then he’ll come up with some convoluted way to make that happen, and I’m afraid it’s because Khan comes from yet another alternate universe that was not the past of TWOK or Space Seed. And I just don’t think that’s very interesting.

Switching bodies with the Turnabout Intruder machine would be interesting. Hell, switching brains using the “Teacher” device would be preferable to ‘plastic surgery to conceal his identity’ or yet another QM MWI explanation.

According to the STAR TREK CONCORDANCE by Bjo Trimble on page 245 under the entry labelled “Universal Language:” it says:

“A generally accepted universal language is spoken throughout the known galaxy by most Federation planets. For our convenience, this is translated into English.”

I also recall and Memory Alpha agrees that the Universal Translator is built into the Com system of Federation starships and shuttles. So the Prime ship’s UT would have allowed Khan to hear “English” in spite of my already acknowledging the conceit that they did in fact speak it to him.

If I “translate” Bjo’s citation correctly she uses the animated episode THE COUNTERCLOCK INCIDENT to back her “universal language” entry. My jogged recollection is that the animated episode SLAVER WEAPON is what made me first ponder the question of what language the Feds spoke, etc. I believe I found answers in that episode because I recall it drew on elements from SF created outside of Trek?

Another angle that could be taken is what the episode TURNABOUT INTRUDER gave us. Shatner’s efforts to the contrary, Janet Lester(with Kirk inside) spoke with the same vocal inflections as original Lester and vice versa with regards to Kirk. Conclusion: speech centers aren’t transferred in the machine’s katra swap as opposed TWOK’s katra deposit where McCoy spoke indistinguishably from Spock from time to time.

For the final time, I DID APOLOGIZE TO YOU as you requested for daring to use the world “credible” in my post. STOP LYING and saying that I did not. And where in the F is your promised apology for you name calling???

This is getting to be borderline harassment, and I am getting sick and tired with this clown. It’s the same act over and over — he only posts occasionally, and is over-sensitive, then starts a big btichfest and gets me and others all riled up, and then, like a little baby, he whines and disappears with some bullcrap excuse about why he cant stay around to be accountable for his actions like a real man would be.

Sick of the drama queen act. Grow up, Sebastian. And grow some balls while you are at it, please — stop the lying, name-calling, and lack of accountability.

I didn’t come out with the credibility insults in the other thread; that was dear old MJ (who now washes his hands of all responsibility). He came out swinging, not me. All I did was post a comment about how much I enjoyed “Unification” and MJ came down on me like a ton of lard.

I’ve posted here in other threads and I generally have no issues until MJ comes in, sniffing for fresh meat….

# 368 Capt. Robau~
And I never said I was a professional critic; I said I was NOT a professional critic (READ my post before you attempt to quote it, OK?), and that my opinion is just that… MY opinion only. Not gospel. I thought we were entitled to those here, weren’t we? Guess not with MJ and RDR acting as de facto moderators…

At any rate, I am sick of MJ (and others) ret-conning what happened and making it sound like they were utterly blameless.

Ahmed~

I read your defense of my opinion, and I wanted to thank you for that.
At least ONE person read my posts without prejudice. You’re a decent guy. Much obliged. ;-)

If any of you who are blaming me for the closed thread actually bothered to READ my very first post in it, you will see that there was NOTHING about it that warranted MJ to start in on me and say that my opinion (and that’s ALL it was) has ‘no credibility’ because I don’t prefer STID; it was not even an STID thread.

And he never offered me an apology (nor do I insist on one; unlike RDR, who thinks everyone owes everyone else one). MJ said he chose the ‘high road’ (we see how long that lasted; about a minute and a half).
But you read MJ’s posts and he’s utterly blameless…

Just wanted to clear that up.
This is my last post on this subject, so throw as many spears as you wish. I don’t care and won’t be coming back to this thread.

————————
“I also recall and Memory Alpha agrees that the Universal Translator is built into the Com system of Federation starships and shuttles.”

Khan likely remembers English being spoken on the Botany Bay, as he was unconscious in Sickbay. No universal translators there. Also, Memory Alpha says they were built into the “com systems”, to translate communications, not necessarily conversations in a room. Either way, in reviewing Metamorphosis, the cited source of that information, I do not find that fact applied to anything more than the shuttle. So it is dubious canon that it was built-in throughout the ship, com systems or otherwise, however logical to assume.

————————
“she uses the animated episode THE COUNTERCLOCK INCIDENT to back her “universal language” entry. My jogged recollection is that the animated episode SLAVER WEAPON is what made me first ponder the question of what language the Feds spoke”

In counter clock, Uhura says “the universal translator has the answer. The woman is speaking the same universal language we speak”. That “universal” language could simply be English. It’s a stretch to assume it is anything other, considering the numerous canon examples we do have that specifically reference English.

That comes from the same transcripts that I reviewed for Slaver Weapon, in which I found no references to language whatsoever. I cannot imagine what caused you to wonder about that from that episode.

———————–
428. Disinvited,
“Janet Lester(with Kirk inside) spoke with the same vocal inflections as original Lester and vice versa with regards to Kirk. Conclusion: speech centers aren’t transferred in the machine’s katra swap as opposed TWOK’s katra deposit where McCoy spoke indistinguishably from Spock from time to time.”

Your conclusion is specious. Lester vs. Kirk is to be expected, the vocal chords are the same, therefore the timbre will be the same. What you are looking for is an accent, which does not apply as both Lester and Kirk had similar Midwest accents, and as I recall both actors made an effort to manipulate their vocal chords to the extent possible to sound like the other. Had Lester a British accent, and she continued to speak that way with Kirk inside her, you might have some evidence to support your conclusion. But you don’t. As for McCoy, do we know for a fact that Nimoy overdubbed some of McCoy’s dialogue? I always heard those moments as McCoy’s effort to speak like Spock, i.e. low and monotone, as if Spock took control of his body momentarily. If we use the Lester example of her character having a British accent, it would be the equivalent of her imitating Kirk inside his body since she was trying to pass herself off as Kirk, rather than speak with her normal British accent. If Nimoy actually did overdub McCoy’s dialogue in places, then there’s no good explanation for how Spock’s Katra caused McCoy’s vocal chords and resonating chambers to physically mutate.

But by all means do keep trying to exonerate Orci (assuming he would even take this path as an explanation).

I saw how you bent over backwards to try to placate Sebastian. You apologized when you really had nothing to be sorry for. And you tried to take the high road and ignore him, to no avail. And what do you get for it — you get that nasty message from him in #391, plus the name calling using the “blowing” reference…that was just crude and completely unnecessary.

I don’t think anyone here blames you here for venting, especially given the way this troll posts this nasty message before cowardly saying he is not going to stick around to take accountability for it. Good riddance to that SOB. I hope he stays away from this site this time.

Now you’ve got me quite curious. I do have an alternate theory on what happens which I’m sure I’m wrong about. But just in case I’m right I won’t say anything. I should say though that nearly all of my predictions about STID were wrong. I bet a million bars of latinum that Khan wasn’t the villain and I managed to find more than a bit of evidence that Peter Weller was playing Cornelius Landru from the Archon comic. So I’m probably not the right person to be speculating on this.

@434 (Curious Cadet): No one is trying to exonerate Orci. Everyone who is commenting on Khan’s changed appearance is guessing as to why Khan and John Harrison do not look alike, based by what’s going on in “Star Trek: Khan” #1 (which came out this month). It’s all in good fun, and this discussion is not something to get so worked up over.

MJ, I agree with your “necessary rant” above. Not only that, but Sebastain also kept tying to imply that there was something supposedly nefarious about you leaving the site when Orci left, and then returning after Orci returned. You were straight with all of us all along when you left and returned, so that smacked to me of Sebastian grasping at straws in his bewitchment against you.

Yes, and it is extremely obnoxious that he all of a sudden comes up with this “get out of jail free card” where he has to leave us here and can’t post anymore on this…my, how “convenient” that he has an excuse now why he can’t be accountable to us all for what he said. I don’t see you running for cover or wussing out on this, MJ.

The reason you don’t find what triggered my thoughts in the SLAVER WEAPON transcript was that my thoughts were stimulated by works created outside of Trek. The Kzinti were first introduce in the SF print work of Larry Niven who wrote the script, and thus caused STAR TREK to intersect his universe and be cross pollinated with his concepts established outside of Trek.

Call my argument whatever you want. The fact remains that in TSFS Spock’s Katra in McCoy was able to affect a much closer rendition of Spock’s original body voice than either Lester/Kirk or Kirk/Lester ever did of each other in TURNABOUT INTRUDER.

I am not well versed in brain science but it is my experiences in geriatric caregiving that changes in vocal patterns are looked for, in full medical workups for evidence of brain trauma. If Kirk/Lester in the reality of that TV episode was indeed speaking with the changes you noted, I’m fairly certain Spock, of all people, would have noted them as well, and not have had to resort to a mindmeld to confirm that something was different about the Captain.

Since you like recourse to transcripts, please note I’m not the only one who noted the difference between the two productions renditions of this. Please note that in this transcript for TA:

P.S. – I’m a little cranky today as I’d typed out a long, detailed response to Disinvited’s post #406 and #407 yesterday…and it failed to show up here.

So I tried again a few hours later yesterday, and it failed to show up again!

It had three Wikipedia links included at the end of it, but I don’t know if that’s what caused a problem with it being ‘lost’ when I tried to post it, or not. Neither attempt has been held back for moderation I’m sure, as they didn’t even appear momentarily on the site, unlike how my previously moderated posts did, which then successfully appeared later…and they would have certainly shown up by now today.

I may or may not try to re-type it all out a third time…but it’s a mystery.

@ Alex Rosenzweig #420 – I’d be very interested to know the answer to that too actually! I’m not entirely sure we’ll get an answer to that one…but I’m certainly curious to know what his preference would be.

@441. Disinvited,
“my experiences in geriatric caregiving that changes in vocal patterns are looked for, in full medical workups for evidence of brain trauma.”

This is an interesting point. But what exactly do you mean? An elderly man speaking with a new French accent, or in a woman’s voice instead of his own, or subtle shifts in speech patterns, like slurring of words and stammering?

———————–
“If Kirk/Lester in the reality of that TV episode was indeed speaking with the changes you noted, I’m fairly certain Spock, of all people, would have noted them as well, and not have had to resort to a mindmeld to confirm that something was different about the Captain.”

Forgive me, but sometimes I don’t follow your rebuttals, and lose track of what we are debating.

Doesn’t your point here suggest that Kirk and Lester were speaking exactly as their host would have normally, regardless of the audience’s perception otherwise?

————————
“Since you like recourse to transcripts, please note I’m not the only one who noted the difference between the two productions renditions of this.”

Transcripts establish spoken canon. If more people consulted them there would be less debating. Unless your point about a universal intergalactic language was posted on a sign or screen somewhere (which is where some canon indeed comes from), then this assertion of yours is not canon.

The lack of any mention of “voice” in Turnabout Intruder makes perfect sense as one would assume Kirk spoke normally, and Lester spoke normally when possessed of the other. In my hypothetical, had Lester dropped her usual British accent when Kirk possessed her, then I would expect some reference to her voice would appear. I presume you aren’t advocating for the silly dubbing trick like they used on Gilligan’s Island where Mr. Howell spoke with Mary Ann’s voice (or whomever), et al. Lester was intentionally attempting to imitate Kirk. Kirk was speaking normally, not trying to force his new female vocal chords to impossibly imitate the way he would sound in his own body. So they both sounded the way they normally would, with nothing about which to call attention. I don’t see the problem here.

As for McCoy, again, the transcript narratives are not canon, and don’t explain whether we are hearing Nimoy’s actual voice or McCoy speaking as Nimoy. And I’m not arguing that it didn’t happen, I noticed it the first time I saw the movie. It was obviously intentional. But it’s not something that is impossible for McCoy to accomplish with his own vocal chords. And it was a deviation of his normal speech patterns, just as if Scotty dropped his accent to imitate Kirk. So this is one of those times I don’t really follow your point.

Just as Abrams went out of his way to cast actors who resemble all of the original canon cast, and Pegg and Urban went out of their way to imitate the voices of their characters, so too did Shatner and Sandra Smith, and likely DeForest Kelley. With Khan, not only did Abrams not make an effort to cast an appropriate looking actor, but there was no effort by Cumberbatch to change his voice either. So now you have a character that’s supposed to be completely unchanged from original cannon that is as far away from that as you can get.

I am loving the ongoing comic series, you guys are doing a fantastic job tying everything together and continuing the story. I am eager to see if the Klingon conflict will be resolved in the comics or if it will continue to the next movie.
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@447. Ahmed

I don’t even know what is going on, too much drama and drama queens (both male and female) on this site, I try to stay out of it and so should everyone else. Oblivious to what happened, agreed, let move on.
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At this point I am done debating, whether the next movie is about good old space exploration or a massive Klingon conflict, does not concern me, I would be happy to see both. Besides, none of the movies were ever about exploration the way the TV series were, it was always about a single issue, a single dilemma or conflict which had to be resolved. If anything, the movies were exploration of ourselves, not space. We had the smallest taste of the new Klingons and that was not enough for me. Regardless of how many movies the Klingons have been in, you can never have too many Klingons, not to mention that the new Klingons are of a totally different breed (figuratively) and I want to see how they perform in stellar combat.

How about Godfather III, where all the mob bosses are assembled for a meeting in a skyscraping hotel so they can be shot to death by a helicopter with a machine gun that appears hovering outside the wraparound window?

Of course it is. I’m having fun. “exonerate” is a bit of a hyperbolic word for these types of discussion, think you not? I think it’s amusing to put so much effort into explaining the British accent, when there really is no logical in-universe explanation for it, just like there shouldn’t be one for Khan. but I play along.

What is deadly serious, is Orci’s real world explanation for the casting of Khan. If he ends up trivially changing Khan’s appearance, given his very serious and passionate ethical defense in casting, then that will be something else altogether. He really should have ignored it, rather than making it the focal point of the entire 6 issue IDW series, in my opinion. I’m honestly not sure how he can justify Khan’s whitewashing now, but I am very curious to watch this train-wreck unfold.

The only clean way out of this, is to make Khan to have always looked like Cumberbatch. EIther by having him come from an alternate universe than he did in Space Seed, where Khan was a white British man instead of a darker skinned, Northern Indian, and show us the origins of that and how he got there (i.e. The Tholians pulled in an alternate Botany Bay through their rift which is what Marcus found, and Montalban’s BB is still out there for instance), OR make Harrison a different character than Montalban played. It’s hard to accept that as a possibility since Orci is on record that Harrision is the same Khan as was in TWOK and Space Seed, but there is still some wiggle room depending on (borrowing from Bill Clinton here) what the definition of “is” is. Orci is clearly an effective equivocator, so I can imagine a scenario where the defense is that the characters are the same in terms of conceptualization and development, even if they are not literally the same person in-universe.

@441 “I was just thinking about how interesting this board might become if MJ and all the other troublemakers and clique-ists were banned. This site could be revitalized – just as JJ has done for Star Trek!”

That’s just not credible.

Whoops — I used “the c word.” OMG, I am so sorry for using that horrible word against Anthony Thompson. Shame on me!

Harrison/Khan is one member of a family/crew, many of whom share the same Khan title and surname. However, that does not mean they all necessarily came from the same part of the world or were brought up speaking the same language. I think that you would find any number of people of North Indian descent speaking the “Queen’s English” or whatever in Britain today.

In the comic, it appears that this “Harrison” individual was taken from the poor streets of New Dehli (where his original family name might have easily been Khan). It is as likely that he was taken out of India, experimented on, and (re)educated with British English being the main language taught and spoken…

God, that Space Seed episode was not one of the best episodes and I was surprised that it was used as the basis for the TWOK movie and even more amazed that both episode/movie was used as a basis for the STID story. There is so much retconning to be done and so many toes have been stepped on because of this 30 bloody year Khan fixation. I said that the Enterprise should have blown the Botany Bay and any other similar ship that followed to smitherenes…but then again, who the hell ever listens to me…ever?…:(

@451 (Curious Cadet): I will agree with you on the “white-washing” thing, but for a different reason. I felt that by making Khan into a “white guy”, it made Orci into a political correct “hack” who placed his feelings on 9/11 and the “War on Terrorism” above good story-telling. That to me is disrespectful to fans of Star Trek. We are a lot more sophisticated to fall into the trap that we, as Star Trek fans, can’t tell the difference between an Indian and an Arab, or would automatically assume that all Arabs are Muslims, or assume that all Muslims are extremists bent on terrorism. The other thing is that with the dearth of Indian acting roles in Hollywood, I would think that Bad Robot would go out of its way to find Indian or Pakistani actors who have the chops to play Khan. I can understand Ricardo Montalban being picked to play Khan back in the TOS episode “Space Seed”, due to a lack of Indian actors, but this is the 21st century. I would think that the people at Bad Robot would be a little bit smart about who should play the role of Khan w/o giving into paranoia about how a movie-going audience MIGHT react to a non-white actor playing a villain. Heck, up until scene involving the crashing of the USS Vengeance into San Francisco, “John Harrison” was actually a sympathetic character. What are they going to do, if Richard Daystrom is the next villain? Make him into a white guy, so as to not offend the African-American community? Bah.

And I’m still ticked-off at the white-washing of the Mandarin character in “Ironman 3″, which leads me to believe that Paramount may have had something to do with the white-washing of both it and STiD…

456 RDRyan, I don’t agree so much … Space Seed was a fine episode but it doesn’t rate in my top ten. The best parts of Space Seed were toward the beginning, when they are sussing out Khan, particularly at the dinner. After that it just got kinda mean and wound up with that fight scene … not a really strong ending.

458 wynne, “We are a lot more sophisticated to fall into the trap that we, as Star Trek fans, can’t tell the difference between an Indian and an Arab, or would automatically assume that all Arabs are Muslims, or assume that all Muslims are extremists bent on terrorism. The other thing is that with the dearth of Indian acting roles in Hollywood, I would think that Bad Robot would go out of its way to find Indian or Pakistani actors who have the chops to play Khan. I can understand Ricardo Montalban being picked to play Khan back in the TOS episode “Space Seed”, due to a lack of Indian actors, but this is the 21st century.”

With ya 100% on this one. I’ve said close to the same thing several times on various TM threads … I really hope John HarrisKhan turns out to be Joachim.

The trust issue is interesting but couldn’t we retcon Khan’s creation via the whole superbreeding/augmenting program to have been just an earlier attempt by Flint to resolve his “wife” dilemma?

I suppose we could – Flint was quite the polymath, so might have come up with a “super-longevity drug” – but how does HarrisKhan become such a super-being ..?

I rather like the poster’s idea, above, that “-someone-” developed a gene therapy to administer to youths so they could become “supersoldiers” – I wouldn’t be too surprised if US’s DARPA was working on this right now. I’ve heard rumors of “supersoldier” developments for some time, though at this point they are mostly future-cybernetic concepts … and rather scary ones.

461 DaveH, I have to throw in my support for Space Seed. Maybe there is a male female thing going on here, since we have RDR, MJ and I thinking its a great episode, and you and Keachick not so much? …. In any case, it was the on Star Trek episode out of hundreds that was ever selected for a movie sequel…and now, two sequels, so that pretty much proves it’s greatness in another way for sure.

Meh. OK here’s my take on the “male-female” thing in two parts: (1) Khan’s treatment of McGivers was offensive, but she was a co-dependent personality. It’s just hard to watch. This woman’s response to it was, oh cripes, she wants a woman-beater? REALLY? [shiver of revulsion]

(2) I was interested in the socio-psychological aspects of Khan’s “superior” self-regard, and his consequent abuse of others he considered below him. I liked the civilized confrontation between him and the Bridge officers at dinner. I felt the episode sort of went downhill from there.

As to why it was selected for a sequel and yet another? Again a two-part response: (1) Khan was sort of a “super” villain; he was still “available” on Ceti Alpha whatever; he was great fodder for a movie sequel in the 1980s. Further, the “re-hash” in STiD was merely a naming convention, and one that in the movie universe, makes no sense except to whoever suggested it in the production meetings – it made no sense to Kirk or Spock or McCoy, and Spock being such a scholar, it is puzzling to contemplate he would know nothing of such a figure in Earth’s past. IF “Khan” had remained “Harrison” the movie could have stood on its own merits. But they threw in this odd reference. To appeal to older fans? It never appealed to me at any point; IMO Khan had already “been done,” let him rest I say.

(2) Khan was used in STiD for reasons above, apparently b/c Lindelof or Abrams thought it a terrific [ heh-I almost typed “terrible” ] idea; I guess they thought they’d capitalize on the fame Khan gained in TWOK, and didn’t realize what a ridiculous pop culture meme it had become; and didn’t realize the illogic of the name’s inclusion in their own movie’s universe …. o_O … whut.

Curious, Bill Maher is a flippin’ genius comedian, and I’m thinkin’ he or one of his staff must be a Trekker …

An honorable tradition among comic hosts, seeing as Jon Stewart and Colbert are both Trekkers : )

And they are all genius at socio-political satire. They are some of the reasons I stay sane. They remind me I am not the only one who thinks certain views / statements / proposed policies are simply crazy – awful and cannot possibly be considered responsible or sensible ideas.

458 dswynne, This being said, it’s particularly weird that they interviewed Benicio del Toro – a Hispanic – for the role instead of an Indian/Pakistani. How silly can you get, to reproduce a casting “necessity” of a ’60s TV show on a short time “budget” ? Yes, it turned out to be a great choice to cast Montalban … but even considering casting a Hispanic in the role was a poor decision on behalf of Bad Robot/Abrams. It was just … ethnically tone-deaf, and as said above.

Then casting Cumberbatch – who has some star appeal these days, he’s in three movies debuting in the next couple of months, so it was sort of an “advanced casting coup” … that was weird, and whatever Mr Orci says, to me casting an Anglophone in the role was racially insensitive and underestimated the intelligence of Trek fans and a goodly part of the general movie audience … oh what am I saying, the general movie audience is never estimated to have any intelligence …

Plus nowadays there are many people in less equality-oriented societies who cannot even read, so how would they be able to understand what’s going on without tonnes of action &c. &c.? Agghh, this is the audience Star Trek movies have to play to? Jaysis on a unicycle. Suffice it to say, I long for the debut of a Trek TV series, hopefully set in a slowed-down version of the “JJ-verse” … because I like the shiny Enterprise and the great new cast, and I want my Spock, Kirk, McCoy, Uhura and Scotty Et. Al.

466, K-7, It’s still not one of my top ten. But “generally acknowledged to be considered in the public domain as one of the best” was a good way to put that!

I can’t argue that all right.

But let’s at least consider that “TWOK” – considered by many the best TOS cast movie – brought younger people over to TOS to watch “Space Seed” – in other words, because they like TWOK, they like “Space Seed.” To me that is a mitigating factor …. just sayin’.

What Trek needs is to do what it did in the 60’s and go against what was currently expected society stereotypes. Rather than try to make stories that are metaphors of current world events show a vision of what the future could be.

Maybe have a captain who is a devout muslim and a retired priest or christian pastor or orthodox jew as his first officer. Would a gay first officer under a muslim captain be too controversial even in this day and age?

I know these variety of people can work well together today but it still goes against a lot of stereotypical thinking.

What Star Trek does best is set up a vision of a better way that society then aspires to. They would do well to find the best way to identify what that is for today then reinvent a better future from there.

“….But they didn’t, and now as far as I’m concerned if Orci’s really going to foolishly try to explain Khan’s appearance change in-universe, after the real-world rationale he gave in defense of the casting choice, just to reconcile the fiction of his own QM MWI fabrication (which no longer holds water as far as I’m concerned), then I’m going to hold his feet to the fire and he has to explain it all, so that a child won’t laugh at it and call BS.”
_________

Since the movie was released, I’ve read comments, here and elsewhere, in which Mr. Orci has been said to have made a “politically correct ” decision.

Which is surprising, as far as I’m concerned, considering all the off-topic discussions he participated in, on this very site.

In those many discussions, I never was under the impression he was being “politically correct ” so as not to offend people who might not have shared his opinions…he seemed to enjoy a good debate…which led to more than a few interesting threads, from my perspective.

Besides, as I said upthread (@ 124), weeks ago, those who expected an explanation regarding Khan’s new appearance were asked to wait for a week * before Mr. Orci finally talked about his willingness not to “demonize anyone of colour” for “…most people would have only seen a terrorist. KIDS would have only seen a terrorist.” **

…This, despite the fact that, in some interviews, he also appeared to believe that audiences were ( his term )…”sophisticated “…

You are more than aware of the fact that, to me, there was nothing politically correct about the reasons that led to the casting of Mr. Cumberbatch as Khan. However, as you once wrote, and unless I misunderstood your post, I agree that one of the explanations provided to justify the whitewashing of Khan Noonien Singh can be perceived as such. And, I believe Mr. Orci knew what he was doing when he gave it ; he is a writer.

Some might even call him an…”effective equivocator “.
I could be mistaken, however, I don’t believe he would disagree with them on that point :

“1202. boborci – September 13, 2012

1189

What makes me an expert?

Perhaps it’s what I do for a living. I am a writer/rproducer. All I do all day and every day is read or write bullshit stories. Thousands of bullshit stories go through my mind in a year. I am an expert in bullshit stories. Therefore, I know a bullshit story when I see, hear, or read one;)”

Yikes! Can we hope and trust it will not be a “bullshit story” that we get for the next movie? I won’t invest too much time and energy pondering that question. It’s just too exasperating.

It occurs to me ‘woulda, coulda, shoulda Star Trek’ has been around since 1969 or earlier. I guess it’s not going anywhere anytime too soon, if ever.

OT-
I’ve been on the fence re: ENDER’S GAME for several reasons. But I must say seeing the trailer in IMAX before Gravity has pushed me off that fence. It looks really impressive in that format! God I hope it’s good! I loved the book.

You made clear that while you didn’t regard it as an “accent” that you believe the actress and actor were each trying to imitate the other’s speech inflections and cadence when in possession of their opposite sexed “katra” in TURNABOUT INTRUDER”. I’m just saying that may have been done for the benefit of the audience but it wasn’t something obvious to the other characters in their story. That is, I am certain that Spock, keen scientific Vulcan-eared observer of humans that he is, would have noticed that right off the bat, and wouldn’t have had to bother with a mind-meld to have known something was off. Also, McCoy, ever on guard for the mental competency of those in command and esteemed medical professional that he is, would notice even subtle changes in speech as part of his being a watchdog for any indication of brain trauma.

And, of course, you are making a similar argument with respect to Nimoy-voiced Kelley’s lines, I believe.

You have been causing me to ponder there has to be a better definition for canon? I’ve noticed numerous times where closed-captions don’t agree with what I hear. Does this mean there’s a separate canon for the deaf? And what about alternate language dubs? Not to mention different cuts and scenes for China and other countries?

450.Was that in the thatrical cut of Godfather III?
I dont recall that scene .
I know there were scenes added in the video/DVD releases, I never saw those.

***

Yeah, that was a major part of the movie. Don Altobello, who is supposed to be friend to the Corleones, sets the whole thing up to kill the other bosses and Michael! Altobello is the one that Connie (Michael’s sister) gave the poisoned Cannolis to during the opera at the end.

472, Disinvited, It was loftily called the Katric Ark … not disputing the name, but basically, yeah, a bank for katras : )

468 Aurore, as to Mr Orci’s story, yep, it struck me as Retcon, at which writers excel. They are after all very … “creative” [as in, making up stories]! I’ve been with you about 100% in your stance on the “Khan” casting.

If only they had resisted temptation of the magical – and in STiD’s context – meaningless name.

“Besides, as I said upthread (@ 124), weeks ago, those who expected an explanation regarding Khan’s new appearance were asked to wait for a week * before Mr. Orci finally talked about his willingness not to “demonize anyone of colour” for “…most people would have only seen a terrorist. KIDS would have only seen a terrorist.” **”

Then that would mean Orci was being patronizing at best, prejudicial at worst (I’m not going to use the “R” word because of how misused the term has been in recent years, and used as a cheap way to shut down discussions and debate of late). But the fact of the matter is that if Orci is a professional writer, the script that he and his people produced for STiD was cheap. I expect better from “professionals”, who can access all kinds of literary sources to develop well-rounded, realized characters. After all, the writers for TOS certainly knew how to use literary themes to come up with scripts that are a lot more sophisticated than today’s television and movie outings.

“…(I’m not going to use the ‘R’ word because of how misused the term has been in recent years, and used as a cheap way to shut down discussions and debate of late)…”
________

I agree.

Sometimes, “the ‘R’ word ” can be misused, and used as a way to shut down discussions.

But, speaking for myself, when it comes to whitewashing, I must say I have no problem whatsoever calling it a racist practice.

Moreover, in my opinion, at times, attempting to prevent people from using the term if and when it is appropriate ( however difficult to accept/hear this may be) is also a way to shut down discussions.

There are times when the ethnicity of the actor is less important than the ethnicity of the character. Common sense is the easiest measure of this. There is a lot of talk about James Bond being played by a black actor.

My thoughts on James Bond:

They *could* get away with using a back actor because there have been so many different people playing the character. The personality traits of the character are more iconic than the image of the character. And everytjme they change actors they “reboot” the series.

Why it shouldn’t be done though, is because the talk is not about hey a really great actor might audition and win and he might be black, it’s about “are we ready for a black Bond. Which means making the character black just for the sake of the social commentary of doing so. And that’s wrong.

Regardless the character is a Brit. Black or white he would be a Brit.

Compare that to Khan. In STID he was the SAME character played by Montalbahn. Same. Period.

Whether the actor was Latino or middle eastern is not the issue. Choosing BC eliminated that debate. Because they completely changed the character.

And like previously said if Orci did it because he thought people would only see a middle eastern terrorist, then that is so unbelievably weak and cheap that my respect level for him as fallen greatly. If you can’t do justice to the character don’t use it.

As for TV, please not with these writers. The TV would look fantastic. But I have little confidence these guys would capture the heart and nuances of a deeper Star Trek universe in a weekly TV show.

477, dswynne, but they were doing fine until they called the character “Khan” – out of context. A believable backstory could have been made up for Harrison, and as a villain, he’d have been quite believable – at least in my book. The Khan silliness just ruined a decent thing.

480 TUP, “Whether the actor was Latino or middle eastern is not the issue. Choosing BC eliminated that debate. Because they completely changed the character.”

Well, sorry, but I disagree on your first sentence. I was bothered by the idea that they were interviewing Hispanic actors to play the role. I feel strongly they should have sought an Indian actor. So it is an issue. I do not believe choosing BC eliminated the debate. It just eliminated a schedule problem for them. A deadline problem, if you will.

BC was an expedient choice. They knew he’s an up-and-coming actor. He has a lovely threatening voice, and is an effective actor. And – most important for them – he was available.

It was patently ridiculous and out of context to call the character “Khan”; it was done over the screenwriters’ objections, and it was done because apparently neither Abrams nor Lindelof understood the workings of the Trek universe WRT to that character. Yes, it is an AU, as I’ve said repeatedly, but I still can’t see how he could “be” Khan Noonien Singh. I have the same objections to that as I had to Brent Spiner playing Soong and so on. As – I believe it was Keachick, a few months ago – suggested, perhaps he says “Khan” [and ONLY “Khan”] because he is one of Khan’s many trusted cohorts, and they are a “family” of rulers in a universe full of subordinates, as they see it. Any one of them is Khan over you and me, in their eyes, so they might all name themselves “Khan” …
otherwise there can be no justification whatever for this.

The fact that they “changed the character” is not so true to me. Khan was never a Mexican of Spanish extraction, he was just played by one on TV.

The reason to interview Latino actors was to find someone who resembles the character. The two actors who played sulu has different nationalities but we look last that because there is a basic resemblance (and maybe because of GT’s desire for the character to represent all Asian people).

I don’t really care what nationality the actor is as long as can play the part convincingly. Whether that’s a Latino actor or middle Eastern one means little to me. But BC? Wrong choice on many levels.

These writers/producers didn’t get the Khan character. They didn’t care enough to educate themselves and they didn’t respect the fans enough to make it right. The fact they try to cover their mistakes in the comic is quite frankly a slap in the face.

There were ways to “fix” the issue but these guys weren’t able or willing to see it. (Most obviously what I have suggested repeatedly, that Spock Primes appearance actually leads to the reveal that “Khan” lied and he’s actually Joachim).

@486. Marja,
“perhaps he says “Khan” [and ONLY “Khan”] because he is one of Khan’s many trusted cohorts, and they are a “family” of rulers in a universe full of subordinates, as they see it. Any one of them is Khan over you and me, in their eyes, so they might all name themselves “Khan”

Except Orci has said Harrison is the same Khan from TWOK and Space Seed.

Hmmm. Now how could he have equivocated himself out of that one … That is the question.

——————–
“I have the same objections to that as I had to Brent Spiner playing Soong and so on.”

I don’t follow this. Is it the mismatched name with the race that’s the problem for you? Surely not — what am I missing?

It bothers me as a life long Trek fan. It was stupid decisions. Careless decisions. Decisions that didn’t have to be made.

Making those decisions were bad enough (and I wanted Khan in he film initially) but to try and cover up those bad decisions with a comic book that will be seen by a fraction of the audience that saw the movie is just insulting. And as a life long fan I don’t want to be insulted.

Marvel hired people that understood and respected the source material. Paramount did not. I realise these guys purport to be just that but I think the choices they made in both films proves it isn’t true.

Their movies look great but lack heart and critical creative thinking.

492 Curious, “I have the same objections to that as I had to Brent Spiner playing Soong and so on.” Yep, I said it. I just always thought it was stupid that – as some sort of in-joke – the TNG writers [Roddenberry even?] made Data’s inventor someone with a name so similar to Khan Noonien Singh.

So, yeah, the name and the actor seemed to be a mismatch to me, based on my perception that names and ethnicities should somewhat go together. But perhaps that’s an assumption. As Keachick has pointed out, a name could be carried down to a descendant who does not resemble the ethnicity of the founding family with that name.

I don’t follow this. Is it the mismatched name with the race that’s the problem for you? Surely not — what am I missing? So yeah, I have a problem with both the in-joke and the mismatched name/ethnicity. Just as I do with Cumbersnatch Khan.

Noonian was the name of one of GR’s long lost friends from the war of memory serves. He used it on Space Seed hoping the guy would see it and contact him. When he didn’t, he used it again in TNG for the same reason.

Well that’s not the response I thought you’d give. Actually, I do sympathize.

The MWI/QM idea was a wonderful way to reboot the universe to give us a clean slate on old characters, but I think it can get carried too far, and with STID and the comics, that is what I think we’re seeing. Star Trek is getting wrapped up in its own web right now, because it’s really the OLD characters I wanted to see, not new characters with the same old names.

Kirk is not THE hero in this timeline. I was hoping for Kirk to become more of the guy Shatner made an icon. But Pine’s Kirk has remained rather stagnant while Mr. Spock has become a superhero—getting the girl, making death defying leaps, and pummeling a guy who we see nearly single-handedly destroy a whole team of badass Klingons, which same dude Kirk beats HIMSELF into exhaustion trying to knock out, thereby giving us similar conditions by which to evaluate the relative strength of Kirk and Spock, and where Kirk just comes off as weak.

Does anyone else besides me remember Amok Time, where Spock in heat wasn’t able to beat Kirk without the help of Dr. McCoy’s momentary lapse of medical competence?

And I actually laugh at Kirk when he gets exhausted trying to beat Khan.

That everyone else in that scene is so serious makes it funnier. The only time I laugh at Kirk in TOS is when the scene is funny or Shatner is hamming it up, neither of which applies to that STID scene, so it’s a bizarre experience for me to be seeing Kirk as a joke in a serious scene.

That’s not a character whose shoes I would fantasize about walking in for 2 hours, and I think that really spells out the difference between the two Kirks. If I ask myself if I would like to BE that person doing those things, my answer is yes for TOS-Kirk and…NO for Pine-Kirk.

@494 (Marja): Sorry, but “Soong” is not the same thing as “Singh”. That’s like saying “Williams” is the same as “Williamson”. And “Soong” isn’t even Indian, while “Singh” is as common as “Smith”, as is “Noonien”. If there is a subtext that in the creator of Data has a connection with Khan, I don’t think it was intentional.

“Does anyone else besides me remember Amok Time, where Spock in heat wasn’t able to beat Kirk witsthout the help of Dr. McCoy’s momentary lapse of medical competence?” – dmduncan

I doubt my past logic here, but for me, I think I just took it as a given from Superman that on his homeworld the alien, Spock, just wouldn’t be so super and quite frankly took it as a given that Kirk as the now alien on the planet Vulcan had some sort of non-obvious edge in the fight, especially given that perhaps some of Kirk’s preparations in readying to go Vulcanside (vaccinations, vitamin boost shots, triox shot which meant the one McCoy was supposedly administering ringside would have been a booster, etc.) would have equalized things to the point to where whatever Earth characteristic Kirk had that was totally alien to Vulcan, would allow him to hang in there.

Why I doubt this logic is Spock is half-human. Not to mention he is a hybrid and there is what is known as “hybrid vigor” which means Spock would not just be stronger as any Vulcan would be, but likely stronger than any Vulcan had ever been. Why have we never heard of Spock’s true strength? Maybe, it’s something along the line of Clark Kent, something he and his father kept suppressed so Spock would better fit in? Certainly might explain why Prime Sarek seemed so set that this son would so perfectly adhere to the Vulcan mold as to have the control so as to never slip?

Anyway, I hope I have given you something with which you can have some fun.

Never did Spock appear as a superhero. Yes, when he got angry he had more strength than the average human, so on occasion you could say he manifested strength that was abnormal for a similarly sized human, but he didn’t leap death defyingly from flying ship to flying ship like Annakin Skywalker, and I wouldn’t find it credible if you tried to make skinny Mr. Spock stronger than ALL humans no matter how strong.

female!Kirk and Spock look really hot :DDD
I wonder if all the characters genderbend’d (can you imagine a female McCoy? that would be terrific lol along with a male Uhura!)

anyway, add me to the list of the ones that read the comics and like them :)
I’m just glad to have something to read between the movies

just a tiny nitpick about the covers from someone that appreciate the cover arts : they’re a bit repetitive and mono-theme. I get that Kirk and Spock are the main characters but it would be good, not to mention fitting with some of the stories told in the comics, to feature the others too especially when Kirk or Spock aren’t that prominent in some stories compared to the others
( I like the cover with McCoy, Uhura and Sulu for ongoing #28)

@499. One of the ancestors of Noonian Soong was Dr. Arik Soong, also portrayed by Brent Spiner, and seen on Enterprise in season 3. Dr. Arik Soong was a geneticist, imprisoned for illegal genetic experimentation and stealing genetically enhanced embryos from the Eugenics Wars, which had been kept in maximum security cold storage since the end of the Eugenics Wars, so there is in fact a connection between the Soong family and Khan’s people, established in canon from the Prime timeline, Soong even knew the story of the Botany Bay though he considered it a myth.

While the end of the events on Enterprise saw Arik Soong turn his back on genetic engineering in favor of artificial intelligence, laying the groundwork for Data’s creation. Given Noonian Soong’s age at his death, and various other information given for him, he must be the grandson of Arik Soong, so it is possible that Noonian Soong is named for Khan in some way, given how all the Soongs are identical its been my theory that Noonian was a clone anyway, though that is just speculation.

“Kirk is not THE hero in this timeline. I was hoping for Kirk to become more of the guy Shatner made an icon.”

We all bring our different backgrounds and perspective to our love of Trek. Back in the 60s, Kirk was not MY hero. The character pushed all the wrong buttons for me. Spock was my hero: the character I most wanted to emulate and who most inspired me. So I have zero problem with Spock getting more screen prominence than in TOS.

“Does anyone else besides me remember Amok Time, where Spock in heat wasn’t able to beat Kirk without the help of Dr. McCoy’s momentary lapse of medical competence?”

Don’t forget that Spock was actually in a pretty bad way by that time. Before T’Pring nominated Kirk as her champion, Kirk and McCoy were speculating whether Spock would be able to hold up against Stonn.

You can select any hero you want out of all who were there, and the writers of ST.09 and STID seem to side more with you than me, but the fact remains that Kirk was the more central character of the series. More stories revolved around him than any other character…because he was THE protagonist, the single biggest star of the show.

Star Trek was never an ensemble. It’s Kirk first, then Kirk-Spock-Bones second. And in reality Spock and Bones serves as the Angel/devil on Kirk’s shoulder.

These writers told us they would respect the trinity. They lied.

What bothers me is that they don’t seem to realise they have been entrusted with a golden franchise. It’s not new. These aren’t original characters for them to play with. Show us more Spock? Sure. But show us what we want to see. What got us to the dance.

I have 09 a lot of leeway because the concept was so intriguing. But looking back it really foretold that these guys were taking trek down the wrong path. I keep meaning to re watch both movies and wrote a detail critique….

But little things like Sarek being l wrong are not only disrespectful to trekdom but actually made Spock far less interesting.

To the above: Pine’s Kirk is on a journey. In ST’09, Kirk was a ‘repeat offender’ who learned he had purpose. In STiD, Kirk learned to become the man he is destined to be. That is the purpose behind the trope known as the Hero’s Journey. The problem with some of you naysayers is that you’re used to seeing the mature Kirk, a man who is already seasoned in his role. Lest we all forget, there was a TOS episode called ‘Obsession’, which highlighted the fact that a ‘green’ Jim Kirk blaming himself over the death of much of his crew, on the USS Farragut, and having to learn from his mistake. In fact, when Capt. Kirk was facing that same problem, even Spock was wondering if Kirk was capable over-coming his obsession with the past.

I have no problem with Pine’s Kirk, since he completed two-thirds of his Hero’s journey. I am confident that the next film will conclude that journey with Kirk being the hero that we all know he is destined to be.

Well TOS had many moving parts and I don’t want to simplify it to just one thing or set of relationships, but yeah—Kirk sat at the center of the show like he sat in the chair at the center of the bridge.

I understand that Kirk is on a journey. But if this was a new original set of characters you would never think this Kirk would become the greatest Captain in Star fleet history. They aren’t writing a journey. They are saying they are. They are using some paint by numbers creativity to demonstrate a journey but they aren’t making it special.

To the above: Pine’s Kirk is on a journey. In ST’09, Kirk was a ‘repeat offender’ who learned he had purpose. In STiD, Kirk learned to become the man he is destined to be. That is the purpose behind the trope known as the Hero’s Journey. The problem with some of you naysayers is that you’re used to seeing the mature Kirk, a man who is already seasoned in his role.

***

Well that’s not me. I’ve made the same point you just made many many times before the release of STID.

But in ST.09 Kirk went from being a reckless young bar fixture to the brilliant captain of a Starship. He had an incredible arc.

In STID it felt like he stalled. His journey was sort of flat. He lost his ship but got it back out of circumstance, not because he earned it. And Marcus was planning on killing him or getting him killed all along. So we hardly get a resounding vote of confidence in Kirk’s abilities here based on the way he got his ship back. It was given back to him to rub him out, not because he earned it.

And Kirk’s death—which I thought was a GOOD idea—seemed to me in this particular exercise like just another ingredient jammed into a movie with lots of other ingredients rather than the HUGE stand-alone thing it should have been, which also supports my point. Spock had a movie made about his recovery from death. Even though he isn’t in it much, Spock hangs over everything that happens in TSFS because he’s the object of the movie.

Here, Kirk’s death happened and was resolved in a rush, with the aid of Spock demo-ing the skills of a Jedi Knight. So even the step that should have been huge in Kirk’s development, just didn’t seem that way because of how it was done.

And I think that is something that should be fixed in the sequel. Kirk’s death should have repercussions. He should be changed, and the next movie should actually spend some time exploring that, instead of rushing from plot point to plot point as if there’s an always impending commercial break that has to be beat.

I think that can happen, because they are not going to be pitching to JJ’s directorial mindset for the next story.

For the record, I thought issue #1 of the Khan mini was great, I love how it’s basically hinged upon why a Sikh named Khan Noonien Sighn looks like Ricardo Montablan / Benendict Cumberbatch. Since Noonien’s leg was grown back in issue #1 and Khan has superblood regenerative properties, those are probably tied into his appearance changing.

All that being said, I really had wished that the guy running the experiments on Noonien and his crew was a Soong just to connect it all to the Augment arc from “Enterprise”. That already established that Soong was into it. Go for it! (There’s 5 more issues here, probably will pop up)

Spock was not a superhero. He could not bring down Khan by himself. In fact, he was losing the fight until Lt Uhura beamed down and was able to stun Khan a couple of times.

Yes, every time I see that scene with Kirk hitting Harrison/Khan after the latter had surrendered, I get the giggles. Obviously, Kirk was not aware just how strong this guy was and besides, he was as angry as hell… Kirk did have the satisfaction of having the last word on this occasion and getting some of his anger and grief out of his system. So what if this criminal turned out to be incapable of being injured or hurt? No one should ever think any less of Kirk simply because of this H/K individual has been genetically engineered to be stronger than anyone else. That is just so wrong…

This Kirk is a hero, because he does not give up, whether it is rescuing his friend and first officer from a volcano or stopping a couple of crazy men from starting war, and not necessarily because he wins each and every fight and does all the things that a so-called *hero* is supposed to do. So what if he goes to a bar in his own time to drink scotch, listen to jazz and converse with an attractive woman?

Perhaps a *hero* is supposed to come complete with a regulation operating manual…now that IS a really scary thought!…:(

There’s a problem with falling back on the idea that Kirk is on a journey – it means he has a body of experience to fall back on, the mentoring of superior for guidance, and enough personal drive and confidence to carry him through the bleak times. It’s hinted at enough in TOS to understand why Shatners Kirk is who he is. Pine’s Kirk has none of that – of all the characters treatments in the new universe, Kirks has been reduced to being the Teflon Captain – no matter how bad he is, none of it sticks. The living embodiment of ‘I’d rather be lucky then smart’. I get that this universe is different, but this Kirk resembles Han Solo more then Kirk. Considering that effort was made, at some level, to keep the other characters somewhat true to their origins, it is puzzling to see Kirk so far off the mark.

One other thought – I suspect the push back on Kirks character development has it’s roots in the intuitive knowledge of the audience. The audience understands that someone in a uniformed service isn’t awarded rank, that it’s earned. It’s understood that there are numerous people within an organization, all qualified by experience, education, discipline, and endless hours of training whom are capable of assuming command. It’s just not conceivable that any cadet, who was about to wash out, would earn any command, let alone that of the flagship. Yeah, I know Kirk has to have command at the end – it would be a bit more fulfilling if there was some confidence in his ability, rather then just continuing to get lucky.

you’re really something guys…
first you complain that Uhura is getting more screentime replacing McCoy, NOW you -!even!- complain about Spock being the co-protagonist and getting more to do too? Are you serious?

509. dmduncan – October 22, 2013

508. ObsessiveStarTrekFan – October 22, 2013

You can select any hero you want out of all who were there, and the writers of ST.09 and STID seem to side more with you than me, but the fact remains that Kirk was the more central character of the series. More stories revolved around him than any other character…because he was THE protagonist, the single biggest star of the show.

——————

he was, and that’s because you are talking about a show from the 60s where the star was, actually, Shatner. It was all about the actor more than the character and you’d probably get a more ensemble thing if they didn’t want to showe Shatner down our throat and he didn’t have an ego of the size of the kansas (it was rumored he didn’t get along with some cast members for this very reason)

I, for one, I’m so NOT here for another story where everything revolves around Shatner-ops-Kirk. Sorry but it was a hindrance for the plot before and it would be a huge hindrance for the story now. Have some pity on us!

Besides, I dunno what you have to complain about here. The last movie was the Kirk show! Do you want even more Kirk that what we got? Seriously? LOL Why not delete the other characters then what’s their purpose?
Look at what Kirk has got: a father-son relationship with Pike (that in the other timeline was supposed to be more Spock’s mentor) a friendship with Spock, a friendship with McCoy, a friendship with Uhura, a friendship with Scotty and now a possible future love interest in Carol. It was “everybody loves Kirk” !
And he’s the captain and hero that saved the ship in the end by sacrificing his life.
Spock was not the hero. In fact, you can add me to the list of those who really really didn’t like the hospital scene where Kirk thanked Spock for saving his life even though Spock wasn’t the one who saved him: McCoy and Uhura did! There is no way around that.
If if were for Spock alone, he would have killed Khan (or getting killed by him if it wasn’t for Uhura getting there in time) and he was the only chance Kirk had. Kirk would be dead now it was for Spock.
It was very out of character for Spock to take all the credit (“you’re welcome” really Spock? LOL) and not “correct” Kirk (that is what McCoy did, bless him)

Compared to Kirk, the others have very little. Spock has only Uhura beside Kirk, he doesn’t so many connections and interpersonal relationships with the other characters like Kirk does. And no, I’m sorry but I’m not here to see a Spock or McCoy who are nothing more than Kirk’s puppies.
All the talk about Uhura being defined by her relationship with Spock and yet people want Spock and McCoy to be defined by their friendship with Kirk and never get a life outside of that.

If I can be honest, I actually think that one of the main problems of stid is how Kirk centered the movie is while the first movie was more an ensemble.
My general feeling with star trek into darkness is that every other character that isn’t Kirk (even Spock himself) got a scene only if it could be related to Kirk in some capacity or if he was there too. Take even the Spock/Uhura relationship: the infamous argument in the shuttle some people have a problem with in reality HAD to happen in front of Kirk because the argument was useful for him too. Would it make more sense for Spock to have a private moment with his significant other and not talk about his feels in front of Kirk and other officers? Sure, but he didn’t have that “right” in this specific story because Kirk had to be there.

Ditto for the scene in the turbolift that wasn’t about Uhura bitching about Spock as much as it was about Kirk bitching about Spock and getting an ‘ally’ in Uhura (a bit of role reversal on Kirk’s favor, compared to the first movie where Uhura was Spock’s ally and preferred him over Kirk )

Hell, even in the scene where Uhura is almost killed by the klingon they chose to focus more on Kirk’s reaction than the reaction of her own boyfriend lol! Sure, they do focus on Spock too in two other frames before the klingon attacked her and I like the subtlety of it (Spock is more in character with Uhura than with others, btw) but the point still stands that in the biggest moment where Uhura is in great danger they focus on Kirk even though, well -LOL-, it’s **Spock** freaking girlfriend that is almost killed not Kirk’s!
Later it’s Spock and Uhura who rush to his side and together help him and take him away from the line of fire, you don’t see them fussing on one another. With all the criticism some people have on their relationship, the way they’re portrayed is depicting two people who have a romantic relationship with one another yes, but they’re still officers so if their captain is in danger their priority is looking for their captain regardless the fact that they might be worried about their significant other too.
When McCoy almost died because of that damn torpedo you see Uhura being there for Kirk and supporting him (because she knows McCoy is his friend) and it’s only after the doctor is finally safe that you see, in the background, her holding hands with her boyfriend to get comfort for herself.

The point I’m trying to make is that the focus on Kirk, his feelings and his relationships is a huge priority in this movie and I don’t know how anyone could deny that because it’s rather blatant. It was a one man show with all the other characters supporting him and him gaining their love and respect.

“Talk about diverging timelines: this one bold, perhaps reckless plot improvisation, annihilating Vulcan, calls for a page-one rewrite of the whole Roddenberry-inspired mythos. Imagine if France or Japan were destroyed by a madman and its displaced citizens were left without a home, or a focal point for their cultural memories. That’s what the citizens of the Federation must have experienced after the death of Vulcan. It is an event that must have changed everything, as we humans have said of our real-world knowledge of mass death and destruction and other cataclysmic historical events. The extermination of Vulcan brings new, true meaning to a phrase affixed, however fleetingly, to the destruction of Alderaan in the “A New Hope”: “…a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced.” A horror of such magnitude would hang over peoples’ thoughts even if they weren’t Vulcan, or had never met a Vulcan.

That present-tense experience of grief is palpable even though the new “Star Trek” series hasn’t placed it at the heart of its stories. Why not formalize the focus, and see what results? I believe the new “Star Trek” franchise would be a greater, more powerful, more moving accomplishment if it stopped obsessing over the maturation of the impetuous James T. Kirk — an amusing but too-familiar arc, one that many adventure series have already portrayed — and redirected its energy toward exploring the psychology of the post-Vulcan Mr. Spock, the rightful lead in this rebooted franchise. “

Bob will probably agree with nearly everything you said. And I will definitely disagree with you both.

“he was, and that’s because you are talking about a show from the 60s where the star was, actually, Shatner. It was all about the actor more than the character ”

Wrong. Shatner MADE the character who he is, but Shatner is not Kirk even though Kirk has some of Shatner’s personality. You are conflating the two. You should not.

“I, for one, I’m so NOT here for another story where everything revolves around Shatner-ops-Kirk.”

That’s fair, but it has nothing to do with what I’m here for which is what I’M talking about. What I’M talking about, BTW, is also fair.

“Besides, I dunno what you have to complain about here. The last movie was the Kirk show! Do you want even more Kirk that what we got? Seriously? LOL Why not delete the other characters then what’s their purpose?”

You miss the point. It’s not how much screen time he got nor how much he does. I said at LEAST two things which I thought made my meaning clear. First, Scotty was the only character in STID that I really felt like I’d want to be for that movie, yet the movie was not about him and he didn’t hog screen time. Second, Mr. Spock didn’t have a tremendous amount of screen time in The Search for Spock, but he overshadowed everything in the movie.

So my complaint has less to do with actual minutes on a clock or the number of lines a character gets, and more to do with the quality of those minutes and of those lines which shape our perception of the character.

To sum it up, I’m now LAUGHING at James T. Kirk because he’s weak and buffoonish. Not Chris Pine—James Kirk. THAT is a new experience for me.

In the first movie I didn’t complain about it because I felt it was true to his character at THAT moment in time. And in ST.09 his foolishness was played for laughs. That Klingon scene iin STID was the first time he was made to look like a joke in a SERIOUS scene.

No doubt there are many people who don’t like the character and enjoy seeing him tortured that way.

Now, it tool a LOOONG time to get a sequel out of ST.09. We ain’t on TV anymore, and these things ain’t coming out once a week.

So, please pick up the pace of evolution. At the rate things are moving the universe will end before Kirk grows into someone admirable.

As for your Ebert-related quote regarding Spock: That is exactly what is happening. Spock gets the girl. Kirk looks like a weak buffoon next to Spock. Kirk abandons his command to Spock to save the ship—BUT has to have his life saved by Mr. Spock.

I think the attitude you’ve expressed is held, whether consciously or not, by Bob and Alex, and it’s coming to the surface in how Kirk is being tortured and placed in comparable situations that make him look weak next to Spock. So while they give Kirk more screen time, Spock gets the better screen time. I would rather be the one who saves Kirk and catches Khan than the one who zips across space in a spacesuit or who duplicates the SUPPORTING ROLE of Spock in TWOK by sacrificing himself to save the ship.

Unfortunately I can’t call Spock my hero. If he were real, I would like to have him as my friend, but he’s not someone I would want to BE. I can be just as logical without being alien and I don’t need to suppress my emotions to be that way.

Look, they had an opportunity to think about and clarify the mysterious internal life of Mr. Spock during the TOS days. And what they came up with is basically that Mr. Spock feels everything humans do and maybe even more—BUUUUT he’s good at keeping his poker face on.

That’s just so disappointing to me. And it’s the perfect set up for a human female character to see that as a challenge.

See, as a man I understand the fantasy about being a swashbuckling captain of the Enterprise.

I DON’T understand the fantasy that some women apparently have of being the girl who breaks down the walls of The Invulnerable Man to become his One and Only Forevergirl. I don’t understand—I just note that it seems true that there is a core of female Trekkies who see in Spock their Mr. Darcy.

Please no. I’d just as soon they forget they Kirk died and has super blood.

As good as some of the movies can be, the low points by these writers are very low.

09 was not as much a journey for Kirk as it was a stumble through time. His promotion was idiotic and detracted from what the character actually accomplished. The fact Starfleet felt they made a mistake a demoted Kirk guts the end result of the 09 journey.

The first mistake made was the idea that they could take original characters with long established histories and make them different. That’s a disrespect to fans and the material. The concept of Nero screwing with the timeline was very unique. But the writers said basically it connects these movies to canon but gives us freedom to do our own thing. And yet they immediately break their own rules. Lazy and uninspired.

Apparently people have forgotten that it was stated in TOS that Spock, and Vulcans, were stronger than humans, one episode Kirk and Spock had a throw down in the transporter room where we saw Spock bend “metal” bars in his bare hands (much like Montalkhan crushed a phaser pistol in his hands in Space Seed, and lifted Chekov with one hand while Chekov was wearing a space suit in TWOK) and Kirk fought mostly by staying out of his way and hitting him with stuff. The depiction of Quinto’s Spock, the Romulans in ST09, and so on are completely in line with this TOS info.

@524. I’m going to draw an analogy to pop psychology here – much has been made of lottery winners being in bankruptcy within a couple of years of fortunes being won. Turns out that all money tends to do is magnify the levels of financial irresponsibility.

So, Kirk has hit the immortality lottery. Given that the guy has been portrayed as generally irresponsible to begin with, how do you suppose he’s going to react to situations now, knowing that he can’t die? Recklessness absent any consequences just breeds more recklessness, so there really isn’t any reason at all to expect anything except more of the same in the next movie….

Spock was not a superhero. He could not bring down Khan by himself. In fact, he was losing the fight until Lt Uhura beamed down and was able to stun Khan a couple of times.

***

Well Kirk and Spock BOTH had a fight with Khan. But you may only remember Spock’s because of how brief Kirk’s was.

It’s true that Spock needed help. Since he WAS fighting a “superman,” that’s as it should have been. But it’s also true that Spock was holding
up in the fight quite well. Khan got the better of him, but Khan also could not finish Spock off.

Compare that to the VERY brief exchange between Khan and Kirk aboard the Vengeance where Kirk is easily disposed of with what? Two punches?

So they created circumstances where Kirk and Spock could be compared and Kirk comes out looking weak.

And that fantastic leap Spock made to chase Khan??? If you use a distance equation for a free-falling object to determine how far Spock fell when he jumped off that “barge,” then it comes out to between 88.2 feet if you err on the side of a 3 second free fall, but more likely 117 feet for a 4 second free fall, which is what I counted. That’s about 39 meters—9 meters LONGER than the distance Khan jumped from the crashed Vengeance and which caused Sulu to exclaim “Whoah! He just jumped 30 meters!”

To recap: On the low end Spock jumped free fell for almost 9 stories and for almost 12 stories on the high end. No matter how you figure it, that’s a LONG way to fall without going SPLAT, let alone to be fully functional after impact.

So by duplicating Khan’s own feat, what they are really saying about Spock is a HE’S a “superman” too.

As I watch the movie on DVD, that’s one of the things that strikes me as over the top.

I think that Kirk being injected with Khan’s blood will play a MAJOR factor in Trek 3. I’ve posted this before some weeks ago… if they keep going down that road of emulating the TOS movies, Kirk will probably be kidnapped by the Klingons as they want to use the superblood in his veins to create an army of Klingon augments. If they swop roles again, it will be Spock who then steels the Enterprise in Search for Kirk. We may see an army of Klingonized Superkirks / Superkhans…

But the absolute highlight will be how Abrams uses Cumberbatch in Star Wars Episode VII: yeah, he’ll play that unknown Sith Lord, this apprentice of Darth Sidious that happens to have survived the fall of the Empire, now raising an army of his own. Let’s call him Darth Sherlock for what it’s worth. During the course of events, Darth Sherlock is captured by some Jedi and brought to a holding cell where he reveales his true identity to the Skywalker kids: “Darth Sherlock does not exist. It was nothing but a ruse created by the Dark Side of the Force to cloud my true identity from the Jedi. I am the Dark Lord, I am Emperor Palpatine.”

But before the movie’s release, Cumberbatch and all other cast members will have to say “No, I don’t play the Emperor” which will actually be kinda credible this time since no one suspects JJ to do one and the same stunt again. And yes, Keenser is an Ewok!

And thank you for bringing up how Khan crushes a phaser in front of Kirk in engineering. It reminds me of yet another way that Kirk has devolved into a supporting role, because in Space Seed it is Kirk who defeats Khan despite his superior strength, whereas in STID that honor belongs to Spock (with the aid of Uhura).

While STIDs treatment is more like what I would expect to really see if anyone faces a true “superman,” it still demonstrates that Kirk is now doing supporting role work because it invites comparison to what Kirk did in Space Seed.

@530. Come now – the logic to explain Enterprise underwater is that no one actually said it couldn’t happen. Just because we have not seen Kirk crush a phaser with his bare hands before don’t mean he can’t, now…

Kirks been sandbagging it – in the next movie he’ll revel his true identity….Kal-El, last son of Krypton!!

Allow me to amend my last sentence in 530 to say that it demonstrates that Kirk is now doing supporting role work because it invites comparison to what Kirk did in Space Seed, and we now find Spock doing what Kirk did. The tables have turned.

@530…for real.
Ultimately, the only augment necessary of anyone is immortality. The producers have turned Kirk into Connor MacLeod, anyone with the super blood in his veins will have eternity to polish their combat skills. Warriors that cannot die, it doesn’t get better then then.

@Dmduncan. That comment was directed at everyone on this thread arguing that “TOS Spock was not superhuman”, it was not directed at any specific person.

However, another point to consider is that Spock’s physical prowess in STID was consistent with how he smacked Kirk around like a rag doll in ST09, and even consistent with how Khan took out Kirk in STID, if you use Kirk as a comparison example, in STID Khan has a physical edge on Spock, which fits how he took Kirk out even easier than Spock did in ST09. Since Ayel and Nero are genetically Vulcan like all Romulans this even fits their incredible leaping and things like the last confrontation between Kirk and Ayel (“I got your gun”), it all fits.

To me the whole argument of that aspect is as non-sensical as the people going apesh-t because “there is no canyon in Iowa” when it was in fact a rock quarry not a canyon (you can tell by looking at the rock face, which is cut in rectangular sections) and there are hundreds of rock quarries in Iowa (have been since at least the early 1900s).

Also the whole thing about “Kirk will be superhuman now” is just silly too, McCoy said he made a serum using Khan’s blood, and he was focused on healing Kirk, not enhancing him, and unless the serum contained a retroviral component it cannot change Kirk’s DNA in any way, so no long term alterations are even possible.

Also in IDW’s Khan #1 Noonien Singh inflicts a lethal wound on himself to test his regenerative capacity, he is up again in a few minutes, so he is well below Wolverine’s level there (used as an example because Wolverine is the master of healing, he even regenerated from a single drop of blood once), Wolverine has taken wounds that left his rib cage exposed and his internal organs visible without even loosing consciousness.

Although Kirk’s actions re hitting H/K may have looked buffoonish (to us, the onlookers), they were not for him, nor were they to Spock and Uhura. I try to focus on the character’s feelings and motivations and those were of anger and grief and finally getting the opportunity to physically express such feelings towards the culprit. All it showed to me was that this H/K person was invulnerable to anything that could be physically bruising.

I am not comparing with how Kirk’s character was explained in the TOS/movie series. I am looking at how he is being handled as a person and main character within this (Abrams) movie series. Clearly, they do not like Kirk as a character and it is really beginning to show that the Bad Robot team have little or no respect or understanding of Kirk’s basic good, generous nature…Perhaps it has to do with the fact that one of Kirk’s major characteristics is his ability to like and be liked by many women…that, I suspect, could make, even has made, many a person, (maybe even a writer or two), (sub)consciously jealous…:(

Yes, he is tortured – he is the only character who has had to survive persistent brutality at the whim of repugnant antagonist strangers, as well as from another Starfleet officer, Spock. OK – Kirk did provoke him, but even so…

No, he does not get the *girl*, but here in STID, we do not even get to know their first names. The scene, where he is with the two cat-ladies, is almost sliced/severed, as opposed to merely seguing into the next scene.

Also, some of the objections people have has to do with their view of what/who a *hero* is or should be. Heroes come in different shapes and sizes and true heroism often only reveals itself in rather unusual, even extraordinary, circumstances. The other issue is that all these characters are heroes in their own way, irrespective of how little or great that *heroic* contribution might have been. It all helped.

Chekov proved himself capable of getting the warp core back online (so it would not blow up) against a lot of odds – one of them being having no Scotty around
Sulu was able to take command of the Enterprise temporarily and fairly effectively
Scotty was prepared to quit over a matter of moral principle and later, at great personal risk, sneak aboard the Vengeance…
Uhura tried to negotiate with a bunch of big Klingons, do battle, then later help Spock capture Khan
McCoy helped open up a 4 tonne powerful torpedo to have a peak and later took a chance that what brought a tribble back to life might just bring his captain and friend back to life as well and
As for Kirk and Spock – well, they each did their fair share I would have to say.

“Also the whole thing about “Kirk will be superhuman now” is just silly too, McCoy said he made a serum using Khan’s blood, and he was focused on healing Kirk, not enhancing him”
I agree. All the *energy* contained in the serum would have been used up regenerating Kirk’s (vital) organs.

*Besides, the only being capable of slightly changing an alien’s (ie human male) basic makeup is a Menosian and that was inadvertent, unforeseen, accidental… I’ve already been there, done that…all true, for real! My story outline as of August 2009.

Kirk is my favorite character in Star Trek and I don’t enjoy seeing him either abused or given the Captain’s chair with a wink, as if to say “yes, Kirk is captain, but we all know who the real star of this movie is.”

Do any of you feel like Kirk earned his ship back? I do not. Marcus gave his ship back to him to get him killed, and he ends up with it because he foiled Marcus’ plan, but do you folks feel like the movie was about Kirk proving that he DESERVED the ship back? Did Kirk really stand on his own here?

Kirk can’t prove much about his ability in an ensemble story where he looks weak, confused, and is doing things that Spock used to do in a supporting role.

Why is Kirk the captain instead of Spock? For ST.09 I can answer that question. For STID I cannot.

“…it cannot change Kirk’s DNA in any way, so no long term alterations are even possible.” – Who cares

With all the radiation damage Kirk’s cells and the DNA contained within had, you are darn tootin’ the Khan serum better have the ability to change Kirk’s damaged DNA. And unless you are arguing that there’s some sort of AI in it where it fits Kirk’s broken strands of DNA back together jigsaw puzzle-like, it seems reasonable it filled in untenable gaps here and there with its available superior segments.

But we don’t even have to go there to get the inkling that the serum had to have changed the little girl’s DNA somehow for her to stay healthy.

#536. Keachick – October 23, 2013

Now I like your reasoning that the serum would have had to expend most of its energy just getting Kirk biologically viable for it to be able to give him a full Khan upgrade. But I think he can come away with some unpredictable random pluses.

The way I see it, there’s a little girl that’s undergone the full Khan upgrade and unless someone (Who better than Kirk?) undergoes the hero’s journey to learn to deal with augmentation and its pitfalls, she is lost in twenty or so years and who knows what that might mean for the federation?

I like your exhausted augmentation scenario for Kirk. This introduces a random element to it similar to evolution itself. His incomplete augmentation means no one can predict it. Kirk may experience a certain GREATEST AMERICAN HERO path, but if ultimately he finds a path that allows his soul to be most human, then he might not only be able to show the girl the way but Khan and his people too. And I think I would enjoy that eventuality.

Recall, somehow Prime Kirk in PLATO’S STEPCHILDREN was able to be enhanced with kironide and not let it go to his head; so its not as if it is not within a Kirk to deal with powers and abilities beyond mortal men.

@539. Spot on analysis. And no, he didn’t earn back Enterprise. He happened to be in the right place, at the right time, again. Spock, discovers almost immediately who Carol Wallace really is, even though Kirk had access to the same information and for a longer period of time. Were I a sailor in Starfleet, I’d have no issues with Spock at Captain. With Kirk in command, it’s a good idea to have your affairs in order…..

499 dswynne, Sorry, but “Soong” is not the same thing as “Singh”. That’s like saying “Williams” is the same as “Williamson”. And “Soong” isn’t even Indian, while “Singh” is as common as “Smith”, as is “Noonien”. If there is a subtext that in the creator of Data has a connection with Khan, I don’t think it was intentional.

I know Soong is not the same as Singh, for pete’s sake. The use of that name struck me as weird, or lazy, or just out of context, and strangely out of joint to mix Khan Noonien Singh up with Data’s creator …? I mean really.

But per TUP, Roddenberry did it to get an old friend from the service to phone him up … my question is answered, I rest my case. There was a reason, and it was a reason that on its surface made absolutely no sense to anyone outside Roddenberry’s head.

496 dmduncan That everyone else in that scene is so serious makes it funnier. The only time I laugh at Kirk in TOS is when the scene is funny or Shatner is hamming it up, neither of which applies to that STID scene, so it’s a bizarre experience for me to be seeing Kirk as a joke in a serious scene.

I didn’t see him as a joke. I saw him as a guy seeking revenge and not realizing what he’d got himself into. I saw his pounding on Khan as representative of the futility of revenge-seeking. And we all saw that Khan was not affected by it physically or otherwise. He got information from it.

“Wrong. Shatner MADE the character who he is, but Shatner is not Kirk even though Kirk has some of Shatner’s personality. You are conflating the two. You should not”
—

When I say “It was all about the actor more than the character” I based this opinion on some of the things that Roddenberry&Co said, and for them (in the genesis of the series) it truly was a matter of taking advantage of Shatner who was their biggest actor who, therefore, deserved to get the biggest role in the show. Kirk was tailored on that fact and they even considered it a huge problem when fans, in their opinion, seemed to like Spock too much. That’s why they made them best friends so that people would love Kirk because of Spock rather than not loving Kirk because they loved Spock more.

Nowadays writers don’t have this kind of “problems” anymore.
They don’t have to write a one man show all the time, they don’t have to limit the characters to one role only, they don’t have to be scared that people will have their own favorite that won’t necessarily be the main character(s). They don’t have to convince people that their hero must be this or that character.

that said, I won’t lie, in a lot of ways I actually feel more connected to Pine’s Kirk than Shatner’s and therefore I might like him a bit more at times. He seems more real to me. If anything, these writers gave him a backstory that makes me understand some of his flaws a little more.
It’s all a matter of perspective.

“think the attitude you’ve expressed is held, whether consciously or not, by Bob and Alex, and it’s coming to the surface in how Kirk is being tortured and placed in comparable situations that make him look weak next to Spock. So while they give Kirk more screen time, Spock gets the better screen time. I would rather be the one who saves Kirk and catches Khan than the one who zips across space in a spacesuit or who duplicates the SUPPORTING ROLE of Spock in TWOK by sacrificing himself to save the ship.”

I think developing a human character in a franchise where you have aliens is always a challenge. In a way, it’s easier to make Spock interesting because he’s the hybrid, he’s the challenge. Everything related to him is never simple and there are so many things you can explore with characters like him.
That said though, I disagree with the assertion that one looks weaker than the other.
I actually see this Spock as a very fragile character with his own weaknesses, flaws and contradictions and surely we can’t say he isn’t ‘tortured’ with everything that happened to him. It depends on your definition of tortured perhaps.

Now, I don’t know what they could have done to make Kirk’s arc more exciting to you or the others but I surely saw an attempt to give him a personal arc at least. We probably know more about this Kirk than the old one, in some ways. We surely know more about him than the other characters.
After the first movie, many said that it wasn’t realistic for Kirk to become a captain while still being so young and unexperienced and it seems to me that the writers took that criticism into consideration and tried to make him gain the captain’s chair in the sequel. I won’t comment on whatever it was successful or not for me but there was an attempt from their part, IMO, to make it all a bit more realistic. (my opinion, though, is that they went too far making it all too much about Kirk’s journey to the expense of all the other characters and this because, in my opinion, the reboot is NOT the Kirk show or at least it wasn’t in the first movie and a lot of us hoped we’d finally get an ensemble or K/S being more equal as protagonists)
The risk with Kirk is that they might be repeating things that were already done with the other Kirk since the other Kirk was the “star” of the other story. In short: been there, done that.

“I just note that it seems true that there is a core of female Trekkies who see in Spock their Mr. Darcy.”

lol bizarre moment of puzzlement here (aka: I’m not following you + what this have to do with anything)

ok, yeah maybe, just don’t make the common mistake of assuming that Spock must be a favorite character only of the female fans when he actually has a lot of male fans as well many of which are ok about him getting the girl for once, so to speak (***)

Also, sorry to turn your own argument against you but since we’re at it then I have to say that I just note that it seems true that there is a core of trekkies (female or male is irrelevant) that only care about this being the Kirk show and who obviously see in Spock only the ‘nerdy friend of hero’ whose only purpose is being the nerdy friend of hero that makes the hero more interesting, basically.

Now that’s a “fantasy” I truly do not understand.

Coincidentally, those are the ones who, for one reason or another, are the most vocal against changes like the Spock/Uhura relationship(***) because they go against their idea that characters like Spock should only be used at the service of one thing alone: being the weird friend of hero.
This also explains, for example, why people can complain all the time about Uhura getting “reduced to the girlfriend” but the same apparently have absolutely zero issue with McCoy’s character being so defined by his friendship with Kirk to the point he hardly gets scenes that aren’t somehow related to that, one way or another. It doesn’t compute or they do not care because most likely they like McCoy and Spock precisely because they like them being defined by their relationship with Kirk (in that, their real issue here – a transparent one lol – is not that Uhura is too defined by Spock but that Spock isn’t too defined by Kirk – and there is no ‘and viceversa’ sometimes)

(***)If you read other fanboards there are many male fans (even other writers) whose favorite character is Spock and they like S/U maybe for the same reason you, as a Kirk fan, want more for Kirk and want to see his character get more developed.
For example, Alan Gratz, who is the writer of “The assassination game” (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Starfleet_Academy_%282010_novel_series%29), said that the relationship was one of the things that fascinated him the most about the first movie and he felt compelled to explore it more when given the chance in his novel (disclaimer: the author likes Spock but he actually is a secondary character in these novels, even more secondary to Uhura since the novels are mainly about Kirk followed by Uhura and McCoy)

Again, it’s always a matter of perspective. It seems impossible for some of you to grasp the simple fact that some things (be it the S/U romance or how the characters, including Kirk, are developed) you might find “stupid” for others might actually be interesting and have potential.

@542. Marja,
“And we all saw that Khan was not affected by it physically or otherwise. He got information from it.”

Well, I did think the scene was ridiculous. I accepted it for a while, but then it just kept going. Once I become aware that I’m aware of the filmmaking, then it’s over for me … they managed to pull me back in, then the wheels came off when Kirk died. That said you do have a point.

However, I’m commenting on this because you bring up an interesting point about Khan. He was never this resilient in Space Seed. If Kirk struck him, he reacted, and repeated blows were cumulative giving Kirk an opening to finally take Khan out. Now granted this could be artistic license. I doubt Abrams locked himself away for a weekend and studied Space Seed scene by scene to see what he could do and what he couldn’t. And Orci and Kurtzman wrote that scene (or maybe Lindelof), so what choice did Abrams have? Probably how many blows he let Kirk volley.

But this Khan was certainly more resilient than he appeared in Space Seed, which could point to him not being exactly the same, even if he is generally the same character. The comic is giving clues to that as well. Khan is mortally wounded yet he fully recovers in a brief time? Even the augments in Enterprise were not capable of this (though there is absolutely no proof that they were genetically related to Khan in any way — they were not even created in the same way). A simple stab wound would take them out instantly, and they stayed dead. Though in general they seemed to exhibit more STID Khan-like behavior than Space Seed.

So Kirk is giving us information as well … At a minimum I expect to see the comic tell us Khan either continued to enhance himself, to bring himself up to date as it were, or he was subjected to experiments that caused his appearance to change, probably relying on the same dumb plot line as the Enterprise episodes “Affliction” and “Divergence” about genetically mutating the Klingons’ appearance. Orci did say at one point that STID would be “face melting”, perhaps this is what he secretly had in mind. I have a theory that Marcus tells himself it’s acceptable to use Khan as a test subject because he’s a criminal from a time when such things were acceptable. Trying to perfect a supersoldier from one of his own people would not be acceptable, even to him, despite his willingness to murder everybody aboard the Enterprise. Perhaps Marcus’ people tell him they can correct the genetic defect, as Soong attempted to do in Enterprise, to make him more controllable, and Khan plays along, thus drawing Marcus further in.

It’s still not acceptable as it’s still a whitewash, and it just keeps a foolish retcon alive that is best forgotten.

I saw him as a guy seeking revenge and not realizing what he’d got himself into. I saw his pounding on Khan as representative of the futility of revenge-seeking.

***

Yeah but it wasn’t a *general principle* we were seeing up on the screen just then, it was James T. Kirk. Kirk punching himself out on Khan like that showed a man who was not in control of himself and who massively misread both his opponent and the situation. The man who was so cunning that he “never had to face death” in one universe, is so clueless by comparison that he can’t avoid misreading his opponent or dying in his second outing here. And Kirk just witnessed Khan whip an entire squad of Klingons. You’d think that information would be feedback changing Kirk’s original plan of punching the dude in the jaw.

And if you want to make the “futility of revenge” argument, then why does the revenge-beating of Khan fail for Kirk and WORK for Spock? Again, we have another point of comparison where Spock does what Kirk cannot do. The roles have flipped. Uhura’s phaser helps, but Spock DOES succeed in finishing Khan off. Uhura pleads with him to stop because they need his blood, but by that time Khan is already done, finished off by Spock’s desire for revenge.

After this second movie which took so long to get, what I’m seeing makes me think either that they don’t “get” Kirk, or they don’t like him too much.

When I say “It was all about the actor more than the character” I based this opinion on some of the things that Roddenberry&Co said, and for them (in the genesis of the series) it truly was a matter of taking advantage of Shatner who was their biggest actor who, therefore, deserved to get the biggest role in the show. Kirk was tailored on that fact and they even considered it a huge problem when fans, in their opinion, seemed to like Spock too much. That’s why they made them best friends so that people would love Kirk because of Spock rather than not loving Kirk because they loved Spock more.

***

I’m very well educated on the history of the show, and none of that history is relevant today, by which I mean that when I started watching TOS I knew NOTHING about Spock’s popularity with the fans in the 1960’s. What I saw—and see—is Kirk at the center of the show as its largest character. The only thing Spock is FIRST in is as the captain’s officer.

He’s the support, not the lead. He’s not a coequal-protagonist. TOS isn’t Starsky and Hutch or Thelma and Louise.

Another analogy: Bob and Alex may be partners, but from the standpoint of who listens to us, it’s BOB in the center seat.

So, TOS IS the Kirk show, and I think that’s what fuels envy on the part of those fans who like another character of the series better. There are a contingent of fans who don’t like Kirk and who feel somebody else—namely Spock—should be the star of the show, and maybe the only way they can imagine that happening is if Kirk gets cut down.

#539 In Darkness Kirk just looks as if he’s taken the keys for his old man’s Mustang and taken it for a spin with his mates along for the ride.
He clearly can’t handle the power or the responsibility and looks in no serious danger of becoming the Kirk that we know and love.
Thats not to say I dislike Pine as this Kirk- he’s just, not yet, our Kirk.
It remains to be seen if he ever will. I have serious doubts.

@Dmduncan. I can’t decide if your being serious or not, what I saw from Kirk in STID, was James Kirk do something he will become famous for, turning death into a fighting chance at life, he laid his own life down for his ship, his crew, his friends, the only real family any James Kirk has ever had (even Prime Kirk never mentions his nephew again after that one episode).

Now then, about Prime Kirk’s womanizing vs Nu-Kirk’s womanizing, I watched 5 episodes of TOS the other day, all season 1, and in 3 of them Kirk had been previously involved with the female guest star and had no memory of them, funny as h-ll and completely consistent with Nu-Kirk at this point in his life.

@Dmduncan. I can’t decide if your being serious or not, what I saw from Kirk in STID, was James Kirk do something he will become famous for, turning death into a fighting chance at life, he laid his own life down for his ship, his crew, his friends, the only real family any James Kirk has ever had (even Prime Kirk never mentions his nephew again after that one episode).

***

Do me a favor and try a little harder to see where I’m coming from. I know it’s tricky and that humans seem naturally to prefer to smash rather than occupy different points of view, but Star Trek used to be able to prepare people for how to do that.

Kirk did EXACTLY what Spock did in TWOK which supports rather that refutes my argument that this Kirk is doing supporting role work.

I didn’t watch a different movie than you. I saw what he did. So then why, fully aware of what he did, am I still making the argument I am making?

It’s not because I’m not being serious, and I do wish folks would cease from approaching that border which once crossed becomes ridicule of a point of view that you don’t want or know how to accept.

In ST.09 Kirk got his ass beat in the bar, got his ass beat by Spock, got his ass beat by an anonymous Romulan on the platform, got his ass beat by Nero, and was getting is ass beat by Ayel before he “cheated” his way out of death.

I’m tired of Kirk getting his ass beat, but we got more of the same in STID.

This Kirk has no Fu. That’s one of the things he is iconic for. And that’s also one of the things a lot of people asked for in the sequel.

546 Who Cares, Yes, Kirk was a womanizer in TOS, but as I recall his former amours remembered him with fondness and friendship.

I’m not sure we can say this of AU Kirk yet based on what we’ve seen so far. I think it’s more a case of Kirk Gone Wild, because he’s still sowing his wild oats, as it were. I do think he likes women and sleeps with them on a more friendly basis [as oppposed to simply using them to get the ol’ rocks off] than some males ….

#548 – Exactly. It seems that this Kirk needs to have the shit kicked out of him all the time. Why? Does this Kirk have more crap than most other people? I don’t think so.

Earn the captaincy? Possibly. Someone who can take that much pounding and still survive with a *sense of humour may well deserve a ship of his own!

* ref. the scene at the end where he has just woken up and Bones asks him if he feels any despotic et al tendencies and Kirk answers, “No more than usual”…:)

This Kirk can’t be shown going into a bar without someone making a deal out of it – one poster even referred to him as being an alcoholic – some people are just so ignorant…:(. Never mind that the same bar was crowded out by Starfleet wannabes (ST09), where being disrespectful to the local residents – “townie”, “farm boy”, “hick who likes having sex with animals”, kind of stuff, seemed to be quite acceptable. Ugh!

Carol Marcus is given a free pass for her totally inappropriate comments about Kirk’s previous relationship with Christine Chapel when he and Carol are in the middle of trying to determine what makes those new torpedoes tick. People infer that this Kirk can’t remember who Christine was – actually, it did not matter if he remembered her or not. He clearly showed that he would no longer tolerate this rudeness from Carol and so brought her back to what she was meant to be discussing/doing, only to be disrespected yet again by the same bitch with her “Turn around” stuff. Of course, as should be expected by now, this Kirk is called out by audiences because he did turn around and saw a totally unexpected and pleasant sight. Some people even cite him for some sort of sexual harassment…Really? Are you out of your minds? If anyone should be cited for any kind of sexual harassment here, it should be Carol Marcus…except that there wasn’t any, just a woman gossiping about the other person’s private life, this time, in front of them…:(

Maybe Kirk’s *problem* is that he just might be a genuinely nice person and that must be kicked out of him at every turn…:( (Read my sarcasm).

547 Duncan, Perhaps because the character Spock was finally acknowledged to be the real ‘star’ of Star Trek?

***

Well I’m glad you are the one to say that because had I said it I might be accused of inflating things out of proportion. I COMPLETELY disagree with that, but for some people that IS the truth and they’ve apparently got their hands on the franchise now, but by what objective measure is that true?

And it was not clear that the characters did not have the same soul after the first movie. Quite the opposite. But after STID I think we now have an indication of where things are going. And it’s not just Kirk that’s not the same, it’s Spock.

And I mean that quite apart from the Jedi power imbued Mr. Darcy impression he’s now doing.

Spock is willing to die rather than to risk—to RISK—the ship being seen by the Nibiruans. He’s not just willing to die for his interpretation of a principle whose application in that particular instance is debatable given circumstances that are unclear to him beyond the volcano he is hidden inside of, he obtusely INSISTS on it and manages to get Kirk fired when it doesn’t happen!

Was Nimoy’s Spock EVER so cavalier about the importance of his own life?

There’s far too much trying to have things both ways here. If you put Spock in a relationship with a human woman and he understands what that is, then you can’t have him be such an idiot savant when it comes to other human issues, and this is exactly what I warned against many times before the script was in progress.

When it’s convenient for Spock to be a logical vulcan who doesn’t understand human emotions that’s what they have him be. And when they call on him to be the man who understands what his woman feels and needs to hear, that’s what he is.

Spock is no longer a character with a certain structure that determines his actions, he’s whatever they need him to be, including a romantic hero “superman” equal or near-equal to Khan in strength and ability.

So they keep Kirk in the captain’s chair but it’s with a wink to those audience members in the know.

If you are going to make Kirk the captain, then do it right. Don’t reduce him to becoming a weak looking token captain because you don’t think you can get away with putting Spock in that chair.

Earn the captaincy? Possibly. Someone who can take that much pounding and still survive with a *sense of humour may well deserve a ship of his own!

***

Yeah, that “ship” should be the shuttle of a traveling space carnival in which he is also an act: “The Incredible Pain Enduring Man. See the once famous starship captain who saved the world! $5 a punch! See him writhe on the floor! See him gasp for air!”

“If you are going to make Kirk the captain, then do it right. Don’t reduce him to becoming a weak looking token captain because you don’t think you can get away with putting Spock in that chair.”

Kirk was not a weak looking token captain. Kirk had a moment of not knowing how he could fulfill his appointed position as captain which he acknowledged to himself and then Spock, his first officer and second in command. Kirk, as captain of the Enterprise, chose to hand over the reins (temporarily) to Spock, who he believed was better able to be captain at that point. That is not weakness, anything but…

What you say about this version of Spock sounds very human. It reflects that people have their blind spots and I think that does not just applies to humans but vulcans as well. I agree that they seem to be making Spock “all things to all people” and how confusing it must be for him at that…:)

The other aspect that bothers me about Spock is his reaction to Carol Wallace coming aboard and the fact that later when he does find out who she really is, he does not inform the captain of that fact. It seems that the only reason he did further digging was that he was miffed by her being assigned, when, since now he was back on board the Enterprise as first officer/science officer, he did not see the need for any other science professional to also be part of the crew. His hubris (or is that vulcanubris) and jealousy were clearly evident. When Kirk asks Spock why he did not tell Kirk about Carol’s real identity, Spock’s answer was “When I felt it necessary, as it is now” (or similar words). What the hell was that about? This Spock is proving to be just as insufferable as the prime Spock could often be, if not more so. What a stuck-up prick!

I could never really understand why either Spock is as popular as both appear to be – mostly he came off as an insufferable, entitled snot, who got away with it because of his deep (Nimoy) voice and fancy words.

#557 – “Yeah, that “ship” should be the shuttle of a traveling space carnival in which he is also an act: “The Incredible Pain Enduring Man. See the once famous starship captain who saved the world! $5 a punch! See him writhe on the floor! See him gasp for air!”’

Yes, I can see your point there. Fortunately, the writers/producers cannot do that, even though it seems clear that is how most of them see this person. It is so not right.

Then again, in this sexually repressed society (where all kinds of p*rnography (from the softest to the most violent, shocking hardcore) is also a billion dollar industry), how do you present a healthy human, sexually mature and liberated, male capable of giving and receiving friendship, even love? This society must see such people suffer for their *crimes* in some form or other…:( not to mention the fact that these women don’t even get first names.

What say you, Bob Orci?

(Please, I do not intend to offend anyone. It is just that this torture (the persistent brutal kicking and punching etc) of this character has me seriously wondering just what the hell is going on in people’s heads, in general.)

I have been affected by all this more than I really should be – maybe? What I see here (in terms of trends, attitudes…) is sad. I am sad.

“Was Nimoy’s Spock EVER so cavalier about the importance of his own life?”

I take it you missed the whole PTSD thing then?

Spock and Kirk had not had the same defining experiences in TOS as in the alternate universe. They are not exactly the same people in both universes. At the risk of destroying any credibilty you may or may not think I have by holding up my least liked (or 2nd least liked – depending on which side of bed I got out of this morning) Star Trek movie – Nemesis – as an example, Shinzon is not Picard. They are genetically identical but their life experiences are completely different.

Nemesis attempts to explore the concept of nature versus nurture. The two new movies allow TOS trekkies to do the same, with all 7 main characters, if they choose to so do. The TOS characters are held up to a mirror, but the mirror is distorted.

If I want to see Kirk and Spock et al acting as they did in TOS, I can put on an episode of TOS. If I want to see a more angsty 3-dimensional Kirk, or a more zen Spock, then I can put on one of the TOS movies. If I want to see a more lovable rogue Kirk, or a more traumatised vulnerable Spock, then I can put on one of the 2 new movies. The character descriptions I’m using to highlight the differences are obviously very broad brush strokes. Hopefully you can see what I’m getting at. As for what the 3rd movie will bring in terms of character development, your guess is as good as mine.

And the comparing Uhura to McCoy is no comparison at all really. Bones was as much defined by his friendship with Kirk and Spock as much as they defined each other. It was Roddenberrys intention to make that way. THERE WAS A POINT TO IT. He always said he had it so the three of them complete each other.
Uhura being “defined” by Spock has not even an ounce of the same emotional weight as the trio. It was made so the film could have some romance and sex appeal added to it and to give her more to do (which is good, but let’s have more actual work than worrying over her bf) And some people eat it up. Some people cringe. Kirk, Spock and uhura team may be the new stars of the franchise, but it won’t ever be as iconic or remembered as the original. The dynamic has become kirk calling names, Uhura being a passive aggressive girlfriend, Spock having women problems, Uhura AND Spock arguing on missions about feelings, with all of them acting like high schoolers rather than Starfleet officers.

So yes, it’s a new dynamic, but a pretty disappointing one IMO. And a complete waste of Karl Urban who does so much justice to his character and plays off Quinto and Pine amazingly. You can tell Urban is just waiting to finally get in there as he should be, and so are we.

And no, not all us women are looking for Spock to be the Mr. Darcy. Quite the opposite in fact.

559 Obsessive, I agree with you about 100% here, especially the point about Spock’s PTSD. TOS Spock had not lost nearly his entire people, nor his entire planet … the Spock who went after Khan with a thirst for vengeance was not the TOS Spock – Elder Spock had not seen his mother nor Pike die in front of him. Elder Spock was the departing hero in TWOK; younger Spock has just begun to realize his friendship for Kirk and to see Kirk’s humility after disastrous decisions based on hubris … I could go on, and previously, I have on other TrekMovie threads.

The idea that “this Kirk is not the same Kirk as in TOS” begs the question, “You do know you’re watching a Kirk who grew up in entirely different circumstances and is about 10 years younger, right?” Sheesh.

Thanks for making these points, Obsessive – if we repeat them some more do you think ….

Is that your diagnosis, Dr? PTSD? So I take it Mr. Spock has no superskills to deal with that.

Look, I think it’s a cop out to use PTSD as way of explaining Spock’s insistence on dying to preserve the prime directive. And it certainly isn’t going to allow him to fall 8 to 12 stories and then get up and be able to put the finishing touches on Superman.

And which movie or show I can put on for whatever I happen to be in the mood for is beside the point. The first movie created the expectation that they DID have the same souls and WERE the same people, and that notion was even supported by Bob and Alex in at least one interview, so saying it’s an AU doesn’t answer the reason for my gripe right now.

Oh that Kirk’s “maturation” would happen as fast as his blisteringly fast promotion to captain or his return from the dead.

561. Ash

“And no, not all us women are looking for Spock to be the Mr. Darcy. Quite the opposite in fact.”

Haha! Hey thanks for the support, Ash. It’s like I say, Star Trek already had a character with the perfect balance of logic, emotion, and courage. He’s the guy who fell in love with Edith Keeler, who piloted the USS Constellation into the doomsday machine, and who talked Nomad into blowing itself up.

Now I’m not saying STID is a bad movie or that I don’t enjoy it. But something was bugging me about it since my first viewing and not until now when I’ve had the chance to watch it several times on DVD have I figured out what it is.

@563 (Ash): NuTrek does not have the same dynamics at play as PrimeTrek. Unlike PT, NT had Kirk without a father or a role model growing up. He also started Starfleet Academy later, met Uhura as a object to date, before being her contemporary classmate. He met Spock and McCoy earlier than when he should have, with Spock being disliked intensely while Kirk and McCoy became close friends early on. Meanwhile, Chekov was a boy genius who got posted to the Enterprise earlier, while Sulu went directly into Helm, rather than going through the Sciences first. Ergo, you’re not going to get the exact same relationship dynamics like in PT. And I would venture to say that STiD, for all it’s faults, addressed some of those dynamics, with Spock developing a healthy respect for Kirk, and a possible friendship. So, even though Uhura is still going to be Spock’s girlfriend, and even though McCoy is going to still be Kirk’s best friend, that won’t mean that a friendship between Kirk and Spock will not suffer just because of these other attachments. Besides, it would have been forced if Kirk and Spock were friends right away. Heck, it took a five-year mission to allow for such a relationship to bloom between PT’s Kirk and Spock, and it has only been six months (movie-time) since the Nerada Incident.

And I have always stated in the past, why is it that Spock and McCoy’s personal life has to take a back seat to their friendship with Kirk, when, in real life, guys can have other relationships BESIDES having “best buds” in their lives?

@522 & 524 I don’t disagree. Been saying for a while now that, of the various character redevelopment, that Kirk has gotten the short end of the stick. Spock should be Captain in this universe, yet it’s Kirk that continues to be the Teflon Captain. At the rate he’s screwing up, plus immortality, he should make Admiral in no time….

#568 – Actually we do not know when Kirk and Spock first met or first knew of each other in the prime universe. The only thing we do know is that Kirk became captain of the Enterprise after a severely injured captain Pike was taken to Talos IV(?) by his first officer, Mr Spock. Spock then became Kirk’s first officer/science officer, on the Enterprise.
Kirk had met Dr McCoy whilst training at the Academy where McCoy was doing what he was doing in this alternate universe. TWOK told us that Dr McCoy delivered David, baby to Jim Kirk and Carol Marcus, before Kirk became captain of the Enterprise.
We have no idea if Uhura and Kirk had met before Uhura was assigned to the USS Enterprise. How do we know their first meeting did not happen just as was shown in ST09, although I doubt she would have talked about his having sex with animals?

That whole argey bargey about the Prime Directive is just that and what’s more, Spock was equally keen to save the planet through using the new “stop a volcano from erupting” technology. Frankly, I am not sure that Captain Spock would have done any different when it came to saving Nibiru…then again, Spock, as only first officer, he can be gun-ho about it since, if it goes wrong in any way, he doesn’t cop the blame, take the fall as Kirk did…nice going, Spock…:(
(That could actually explain why Spock often said that he never wanted to have the captain’s position, preferring his first officer/science officer duties….hmmm)

#565 – Hi. I only found out about the new release date by reading your post. Jack Ryan was going to be released on 25 December and a week later in Australia/NZ on 1`January. Hopefully, if the same holds true, we should see a normal Thursday release date of either 16 or 23 January 2014…

I never thought there would be something to actually make me no longer a Trekkie, but Bad Robot taking over Trek in toto would probably do it. Here’s hoping against hope that BR move on after they’d had their way with Trek on the big screen, and that CBS gives someone else a crack at it on the small.

I’ve seen people talk about Star Wars possible being delayed to 2016 and wondering if it will compete with Star Trek, what if it makes Paramount bring Star Trek earlier? Say, Christmas 2015. I don’t know if they would want to do that since they seem to have decided that it’s now a summer franchise and of course they want it out for the anniversary. But is it worth the risk of competing with Star Wars?

Look, sorry if I’ve sucked some of you against your will into the vortex of my strongly worded opinion. But I feel like I just discovered I got taken in a card game a few months back!

I’ve nothing against Spock shining in his role, but it ought to be HIS role that he shines in, which means that there have to be limits, a demarcation between characters and what they do. I never felt that Kirk had to be killed for Picard to get his due and I don’t feel like Kirk has to be shot down for Spock to be a worthy character in Star Trek.

1996. Mission Impossible.

Ethan Hunt has a team of rogue agents around him. They support Ethan Hunt in the mission, but it is ETHAN who stands apart by the things he does and how well he does them.

That is precisely what Kirk used to do. He wasn’t a loner. He needed the support of his crew, but HE was the guy who bluffed his way to an invitation aboard a massive alien ship in The Corbomite Maneuver, and HE was the guy who out-matched the Romulan commander in Balance of Terror. He was the guy who cunningly enraged Spock in two separate instances and who then rode Spock’s fury out until it had achieved Kirk’s desired objective. He was the guy who fought Spock to a draw on his own planet!!! until McCoy’s error took its toll.

That’s what they need to get back to if they intend on making THIS Kirk worth having, and to do that they have to stop giving those things to Spock to do.

But Pine Kirk is so very far away from what Shatner Kirk used to do that it’s fair at this point to question whether he IS ever going to get there or become that person we knew in TOS.

ST.09 provided an excellent reason for the difference, but it also showed him making excellent progress toward becoming that Kirk. And I waited four years for him to arrive and by the end of STID he didn’t.

Why do things that should take longer happen so fast—Kirk’s promotion, Kirk’s resurrection, while something that should happen faster is taking so long? In STID Kirk went backwards in brilliance from where he was in ST.09.

571 . I hope Jack Ryan gets to NZ ASAP.
Apparently ,Paramount is going to announce in a few days that The Wolf of Wall Street is going to take the Christmas Slot .
The studio wants”Wolf” to be nominated for an Oscar.

#578 – Why have Kirk die at all? Except that is what has already been done…sigh…fortunately, “my captain” lives again….phew…:)

I do think that Leonard Nimoy has had some influence over how this new Spock is presented and played. Nimoy wanted this Spock to get to do what his own character could not do in the prime timeline, like have a relationship with a human woman or do what Kirk usually got to do in the other universe.

All the way through these two film iterations, others are given free passes (by producers/writers, and curiously, and more importantly, by a great many in the audience) where Kirk is not. Everyone else, including Starfleet cadets, frequent an Iowa bar, however Pike tells Kirk in a bar in STID that he found him in a “dive” just like this one. It seems that everyone else goes to a bar to drink alcohol, hang out, listen to music etc, but when Kirk goes to the same place, it’s (suddenly) a “dive”.

I do not quite know what is going on here in how Kirk is being presented, but it is not right or fair. The only thing I can think of is that this is akin to what has been colloquially called “the tall poppy syndrome” scenario in its negative form.

The truth is that people like Alexander Marcus and the Khans are the weak ones. They make up for it by surrounding themselves with weaponry and burly henchmen, by genetically engineering others to have extra physical brutish strength and intellect (Khan as an example). They use deceit and bullying tactics to get what they want and that is to feel stronger and safer, because they have not developed or are unable to develop what is true strength of being within their own souls. Unfortunately, the end result is often the loss, destruction of what *soul* they may have once possessed and the cause of pain and suffering for others (eg Jim Kirk) who try to stop their psychotic behaviour.

And yet, Kirk is regarded by so many here as being the weak, incapable, buffoonish one…good god, really?

@572. Recall I had spotted a while back that Paramount had optioned some other character in the Jack Ryan universe – I opined at the time that Paramount might have had some concerns about Pines ability to carry the franchise, and was hedging the possible liability against what has been a profitable franchise to this point. I got my head handed to me, as folks were rushing to anoint the man as the Harrison Ford of the 21st century.

Paramount moving the release to mid-January speaks volumes that the movie has problems. The clues were out there, people…..

Not sure where to put this, but I think we might need to be reminded of just how good these new Star Trek movies/music are. I recall watching this some time back and I have just watched this youtube video again. I got goosebumps and became tearful all over again. I love the piano and I love this!

Duncan, “I’ve nothing against Spock shining in his role, but it ought to be HIS role that he shines in, which means that there have to be limits, a demarcation between characters and what they do. I never felt that Kirk had to be killed for Picard to get his due and I don’t feel like Kirk has to be shot down for Spock to be a worthy character in Star Trek.”

This is an AU. An Alternate Universe. They are not the same people. They may have different strengths as people. They definitely have damage that the TOS crew did not have.

Kirk is not nearly the officer TOS Kirk was. He’s ten years younger. I predict that in the next film we’ll see a humbler, much better leader. Who maybe gets to win a fight once in awhile.

567 Duncan, “Look, I think it’s a cop out to use PTSD as way of explaining Spock’s insistence on dying to preserve the prime directive. And it certainly isn’t going to allow him to fall 8 to 12 stories and then get up and be able to put the finishing touches on Superman.”

Well, you think it’s a cop-out and some of us think PTSD is a perfectly valid reason. Remember too that the Vulcan race all but got wiped out; there is no “united Vulcan mental support system” anymore.

I’m not sure what Vulcan superstrengths it would take to get over so many losses in such a short time. That Spock is even on duty is, to me, a wonder.

I agree that Kirk, in the new timeline, has taken more than his fair share of beatings. I hope that in the next movie, Kirk becomes more like his prime counterpart in that even when he’s physically overmatched, he’s able to use his wits and improvise his own tactics to defeat the bad guy, i.e., Khan in “Space Seed” and the Gorn captain in “Arena”. In both instances, Kirk did get hurt, but he also hung in long enough to be able to find ways to win — all without killing either of his foes.

In STID, Kirk won three hand to hand fights, twice in the fight against Klingons on Kronos and once on the Vengeance. You have to watch very closely, intently which is not that much fun for me because I do not generally like fighting, shooting, noise, but I did it just to be sure that “my captain” did manage to win something. He did!!!

#585 – In the Paul McCartney video, I can recognize Chris Pine, Johnny Depp, Meryl Streep and James Cordern among the people there. These four are also actor/singers in the movie under production in England right now based on the Broadway musical, Into the Woods and also the name of this film. Chris Pine plays Cinderella’s Prince Charming, Johnny Depp is the wolf from Little Red Riding Hood, Meryl Streep is a witch and James Corden plays the baker.
Meryl Streep acted and sang in Mamma Mia – fun movie, great music – her singing wasn’t too bad.

Exactly. THAT is James Kirk. Being physically superior to Kirk is far from a guarantee that you will beat him.

Where IS that guy? I miss him.

587. Marja – October 25, 2013

“Well, you think it’s a cop-out and some of us think PTSD is a perfectly valid reason. Remember too that the Vulcan race all but got wiped out; there is no “united Vulcan mental support system” anymore.”

***

In STID Spock tells us that he “chooses” what to feel and that as a Vulcan he “cannot” lie. So if it is true that he chooses what to feel, then PTSD would not exist for Vulcans as it does for humans who cannot choose what to feel, have no escape, and are at the mercy of their disorder.

Only a Vulcan who was nuts and could not choose what to feel might have something like PTSD.

Spock made the speech about choosing not to feel in specific relation to feeling/not feeling anything upon realising his own life was ending. I do not believe it was general statement about feeling/not feeling in general. If choosing not to feel were his default state, then why was he emotionally compromised in the Star Trek 2009 movie – why did he nearly kill Kirk on the bridge?

Here is an extract from his analysis of Present Spock : “The Spock of the present meets all major criteria for PTSD —re-experiencing traumatic events, avoiding situations, and becoming very sensitive to certain feelings. This isn’t the resilient child we discussed earlier— this Spock is emotionally stuck, much like soldiers and veterans returning from service with PTSD.”

…and as my post about Spock Choosing/not choosing to feel in general has fallen into moderation limbo (possibly never to return) I’ll leave out the link and see if that helps the post to ‘stick’…

Spock made the speech about choosing not to feel in specific relation to feeling/not feeling anything upon realising his own life was ending. I do not believe it was a statement about feeling/not feeling in general. If choosing not to feel were his default state, then why was he emotionally compromised in the Star Trek 2009 movie – why did he nearly kill Kirk on the bridge?

I came across an article on The Psychology of Spock: Past, Present, and Future – By Ali Mattu who has a Ph.D. in clinical psychology. If my earlier post reappears then the link will be there, otherwise you can google it if you are interested.

In the article, Mattu states that: “The Spock of the present meets all major criteria for PTSD —re-experiencing traumatic events, avoiding situations, and becoming very sensitive to certain feelings. This isn’t the resilient child we discussed earlier— this Spock is emotionally stuck, much like soldiers and veterans returning from service with PTSD.”

Yeah Kirk has gotten his butt whupped way too many times for my comfort. If that happened to a guy in the 21st century brain damage could easily be the result. Good thing he’s got 23rd century medicine, a Star Fleet healthcare plan, Bones and now super magical augment blood.

567 Duncan, “Look, I think it’s a cop out to use PTSD as way of explaining Spock’s insistence on dying to preserve the prime directive. And it certainly isn’t going to allow him to fall 8 to 12 stories and then get up and be able to put the finishing touches on Superman.”

Well, you think it’s a cop-out and some of us think PTSD is a perfectly valid reason. Remember too that the Vulcan race all but got wiped out; there is no “united Vulcan mental support system” anymore.

I’m not sure what Vulcan superstrengths it would take to get over so many losses in such a short time. That Spock is even on duty is, to me, a wonder.

—————–

Spock’s PTSD was definitely hinted in the comics and in large part it explains his behavior in the movie and even Uhura’s reaction.
I wish, though, that it was more hinted in the movie too because unless you read the comics you don’t really know that Spock had a death wish and a very hard time even accepting the fact that he’s still grieving about vulcan. If the nightmare they showed in one of the comics is any hint, I suspect he has a survivor guilt too.
In the last movie he wanted to save Nibiru even at the cost of his life because I think he was desperate to save those people the way he couldn’t save his people. He just couldn’t see another planet dying.
This might even explain why he was hypocritical with Kirk regarding the prime directive: had him truly wanted to follow the prime directive then he shouldn’t have accepted to help those people, in the first place.

591. dmduncan – October 25, 2013

In STID Spock tells us that he “chooses” what to feel and that as a Vulcan he “cannot” lie. So if it is true that he chooses what to feel, then PTSD would not exist for Vulcans as it does for humans who cannot choose what to feel, have no escape, and are at the mercy of their disorder.

Only a Vulcan who was nuts and could not choose what to feel might have something like PTSD.

PTSD is no explanation.

————–

I beg to differ.
His choice to not feel is precisely a side-effect of the PTSD.
What he felt when he mindmelded with Pike at the moment of his passing is what he felt himself – multiplied exponentially – the day his planet got destroyed. Remember that vulcans are natural telepath so imagine what Spock and the other survivors must have felt when their race got killed like that.
So because of the deep grief the thought of that experience causes him, in the moment of his own passing he thought that it was better for him to choose to not feel because his emotions are too powerful and – in that case – too painful.
Denial and emotional detachment are also symptoms of the PTSD.
and “I choose to not feel” = denial

You seem to think that he could really choose to not feel and therefore successfully control his feelings. In reality I think it was more an illusion than anything else because we know (and that was the point) that he actually felt and it’s not true that he didn’t care: he cared/felt too much, actually.

“Only a Vulcan who was nuts and could not choose what to feel might have something like PTSD.”

I think that in many ways their [the vulcans] constant need to deny their feelings in the fear of losing control is a huge weakness and might make them more vulnerable to PTSD than humans. We do know that vulcans feel more than humans and this is the reason why they need and use “logic” to control their feelings that could destroy (they think) them. They don’t want to suffer what their pre-surak ancestors (who we know were very passionate and violent people) suffered.
But their “phobia” for feelings is itself an emotion.
Maybe the destruction of vulcan was a “reality check” for them and might show their limits and challenge their presumption that they are immune to feelings (and the bad side of them) when they really aren’t.

You said he has PTSD then it has to be evidenced by symptomology in the film for me to accept it, not just a made up explanation by you as a way to avoid a more unflattering and realistic explanation.

And BTW, that line further shows that Spock has no structure anymore. He’s a puppet on a string who feels when it’s convenient, and who resists feeling when it’s convenient.

You know why Spock chooses in one scene and doesn’t in the other?

Because in the former it satisfies the Uhura romance arc, and in the latter it lets him deliver the Khan scream.

Spock was able to manage his emotions until provoked by Kirk in ST.09 immediately after he lost both his MOTHER and his PLANET, but he can’t control himself unprovoked after he loses a guy who he is still in the process of learning about and befriending?

Structure, baby. If you want your characters to act believably, you gotta put the meat on a skeleton. They gotta have structure. If you don’t do that then they start acting however is convenient to you as the guy in charge of the narrative. And that’s what we see Spock doing.

Don’t worry man. You know Orci is a brilliant writer. You know the answers are all there in the script as presented on screen. Just give yourself some time and you will eventually see it all clearly. You’ve never not been able to reconcile any of Orci’s writing before, no need to start now. That’s the beauty of a densely woven, deceptively cerebral story … You wouldn’t want the writers to spoon feed you, right? ;-)

Thanks for the link, I can’t wait to see Ender’s Game finally after all these years. The book was amazing & from the reviews, it looks like the movie captured that sense of wonder. Add that Harrison Ford in the movie, what else we do want ? :)

I’ve read that article and sorry, doc, but I’m going to need a second opinion.

Psychologist’s put out a lot of BS. Otherwise you’ll have to agree with everything Dr. Keith Ablow says on Fox.

More importantly, though, is that if I have to go to the comics to explain Spock’s behavior in the movie—as the doctor in that article is doing, then the movie itself is incomplete. It’s not a satisfying experience on its own.

I haven’t read those comics and I shouldn’t have to read comics that come out way after the movie does to know why Spock is doing something so bizarre in the movie when I am watching it.

My complaint here, after all, is about what the MOVIE is doing.

But I’ll play it your way. Even if I DO allow the comics into evidence, it still does not address my original complaint:

“Spock is willing to die rather than to risk—to RISK—the ship being seen by the Nibiruans. He’s not just willing to die for his interpretation of a principle whose application in that particular instance is debatable given circumstances that are unclear to him beyond the volcano he is hidden inside of, he obtusely INSISTS on it and manages to get Kirk fired when it doesn’t happen!”

Now if that scene had been followed by one where Spock was being examined by Dr. McCoy for doing something totally off the wall like that, THEN I’d say the writers were aware when they were writing that scene of Spock’s unhealthy mental condition. Instead, they followed it with Kirk being fired because he let the ship be seen. They played it straight.

In the ensuing argument over the ship being seen, no mention is made of any extenuating circumstances, i.e., the saving of Spock’s life, and Spock is the one who files the report that got Kirk fired. Everyone sides with Spock—no attention is given to the bizarreness of Spock’s REASONING, not even by Uhura who is strictly concerned about how he didn’t care about THEIR relationship.

Now you might say that his reasoning was affected by his PTSD. And that will not explain why everyone else’s reasoning was affected the same way—because they agree with Spock. Everyone except Uhura, that is, who expresses her disatisfaction in a weird Kirk-Uhura girlfriends-sharing-secret-feelings-about-Spock moment in the turbolift.

The impression all that creates is that the important thing to take away is not Spock’s inability to reason in that situation, but that he was RIGHT to reason that way.

The big deal there is not Spock’s mental state but Kirk’s failure. Do I detect a theme? Why yes I do.

The prime directive was more important than saving Spock, and Kirk gets fired because Spock had knowledge he should not have had and put that in his report.

Spock goes from volcano interior to transporter pad and the first thing he says is that Kirk let the ship be seen?

How does Spock know that?

Don’t make up a reason, point to that thing in the movie which tells us that is knowledge Spock ought to have at that precise moment. Is Captain Kirk now in the business of keeping his first officer notified of his every move so that Spock can know what to put in his report?

You know the answers are all there in the script as presented on screen.

***

Not this time. In ST.09 they put enough clues in there for me to figure out what was going on regarding the MWI nature of the plot. It took me a few viewings, but I got what they were doing because the information was there. I had to connect certain dots, but the dots were actually there in the movie. This time, however, it appears that in several areas they forgot what they knew when they made ST.09. The most visible thing is the casting principle. They carefully cast iconic characters in 2009 and then abandoned that principle for STID—mostly, I think, driven by JJ’s whimsicality, which is unfortunate for us fans.

But the bigger thing they forgot which they appeared to know in 2009 is who Kirk IS.

#607 – You seem to be on the right track here. Actually, the only person who did challenge Spock and his reasoning was Kirk, the one who got fired.

They did not forget who Kirk is or could be. This was about building up Spock, someone who could do no wrong or certainly saw himself that way, no matter how bad his circumstances might have been. The comment Spock made to Kirk in the turbolift at Starfleet HQ when he heard that Kirk had been demoted to first officer was telling – Spock was surprised that Kirk did not receive greater punishment for his actions. Frankly, while Kirk could be a friend, it was clear that the same could not be said for this Spock…anything but. I do not think that Spock is an especially nice person. I really don’t like him that much.

The other issue is that Kirk would not have forced Spock or anyone else to go down into that volcano and that is a reality. Spock chose to do it and was quite determined to see the planet’s “destiny” be changed, even when told that he might need to be hauled back to the shuttlecraft before he could detonate the whatsy device.

However, Kirk is the one who gets dumped on, only later to be dumped on again by Admiral Marcus along with the grosser, more physical dumping as in being repeatedly, viciously kicked and punched in so many scenes.

Actually, when one thinks about it, these writers have done some damn good characterizations with these two guys, K/S, here – where these main characters have more going on within them, both good and not so good.

To me, Kirk’s development was very clear. At the beginning he doesn’t think much about the consequences of his actions, and then covers them up. After he loses the Enterprise he’s upset because he thinks that he should be the captain. But he’s actually only ready to be the captain when he’s acknowledged that he’s not the best person for the job. He has to be completely humbled, as seen when he begs for the life of the crew, my favorite scene in the movie. I personally don’t see the need to make any of the characters exactly the way they were in the Prime Universe. I’d rather explore the differences, such as having a more flawed Kirk.

Well you’re right that Spock can do no wrong, here. Even when he pisses someone off it’s cute!

And while Spock is heroically being lowered into a volcano to save a planet, what is Kirk doing?

1. He steals a religious artifact causing the Nibiruans to chase him.
2. He shoots the animal McCoy found as a ride to presumably get them out of there by some route other than over a cliff.
3. And he leads the Nibiruans to a front row seat for the rise of the Enterprise out of the sea.

Forget the Enterprise. I’m not sure this Kirk can manage a shoe store after STID. And in addition to all his other new powers, Spock apparently knows everything that’s happening even though the movie doesn’t tell us how he knows. He’s just All Knowing.

See, I could understand if Spock realizes the possibility of being seen and quickly advises Kirk that he’d prefer to be left to die rather than to violate the prime directive, but the decision rests with Kirk because Kirk is not just the captain, he’s the one outside the volcano who knows what the actual situation is and therefore whether it applies, and whether he’s going to let it apply.

Spock is in no position to INSIST that he be left to die. It’s not PTSD. Spock somehow knows that they will be seen if he is saved and values the prime directive more than his life, when he is in no position to be second guessing Kirk.

But you know what happens if you make Spock deferential to Kirk in those scenes? He looks less powerful, and one of the themes of this movie is how powerful Spock is.

Anytime you have to downgrade one character to boost another, you admit how weak the guy getting the boost is. Who knew? It’s Picard vs. Kirk all over again but this time Kirk has to be sacrificed so that Spock can live.

What made Spock’s character interesting in TOS was how unemotional he was, not how emotional. In Season 3 episode “The Enterprise Incident” Spock is captured by a female romulan commander who he ends up seducing while colluding with Kirk to steal the cloaking device. Spock’s portrayal was cold, damn cold. Even when he was being romantic.

Hahaha! Look, if Kirk has to go through all this punishment to become that legendary captain, then I suppose I’ll say it was worth it in the end. But that is a speculative outcome as things stand right now, and I’m not sure it’s going to turn out that way at all, particularly since Kirk could have become that person by the end of the sequel to ST.09.

If he can go from cadet to captain in one episode, then he can certainly go from Captain Jerk to Captain Kirk in another episode.

dmduncan, See, I could understand if Spock realizes the possibility of being seen and quickly advises Kirk that he’d prefer to be left to die rather than to violate the prime directive, but the decision rests with Kirk because Kirk is not just the captain, he’s the one outside the volcano who knows what the actual situation is and therefore whether it applies, and whether he’s going to let it apply.

FIRST, Let us assume that Kirk and Spock jointly reached the decision that dropping the volcanic ice cube to save the Nibiruans was a good idea. Let us assume that indeed the volcano could do so much damage the planet will “die” – perhaps it’s gonna be Krakatoa x10. Who knows. Let us assume that due to magnetic fields or some other script device, the ice cube cannot be transported into the proper location; it has to be rigged to go off by a qualified individual [darn it, where’s Ensign Ricky when you need him] inside the volcano [!!] Let us assume in addition that Spock actually thought he could do this without violating the Prime Directive he holds so dear. Maybe, embracing technicalities, he can separate influencing natural planetary processes from influencing the natives’ technology?

Okay. Here are some points I’d like to make on behalf of the defendant:

[1] it is assumed that EVERY Starfleet officer knows the importance of the Prime Directive and will die to protect a planet’s populace in accordance with it if necessary;

[2] Spock was dropped from the shuttle. He knew the shuttle was in trouble when he exited the craft. Then his cable broke. Would he not logically conclude that there is no way for Kirk Et. Al. to bring him back without using a transporter?

[3] Kirk is discussing – in Spock’s hearing – how to get Spock back to the ship. Spock has to know what the conclusion will be: the Enterprise will show itself to use its transporters to bring him back. While he was fine with going in with the ice cube via teeny-weeny shuttle [SHRUG] he is not fine with the big ol’ Enterprise flying by the Nibiruans.

Spock is in no position to INSIST that he be left to die. Maybe not, in your lights, but it is his duty as a SF officer to remind Kirk of the Prime Directive and his own willingness to die if he must.

It’s not PTSD. Well, how do you know that any better than I? He is, to all intents and purposes, acting as a Starfleet officer should act. But his inner emotional life here is open to question. As it would be for any character.

Spock somehow knows that they will be seen if he is saved … See my above … and values the prime directive more than his life, when he is in no position to be second guessing Kirk. What is this, “in no position to be second-guessing Kirk” stuff?

[1] Spock’s the First Officer. That gives him some military room to talk. As XO it’s part of his position to counsel the Captain [CO] – to offer advice, to suggest other avenues of resolving issues.

(And as one who’s been in the service for a longer time, Spock is serving as Kirk’s “Sea Daddy.” [This is someone who, though junior in rank, has much more corporate knowledge than the person senior to him, a person who needs that knowledge to function well. Many Chief Petty Officers become “Sea Daddies” when brand-new Ensigns report for duty.] I think Kirk would know, and respect, this tradition. He’s certainly intelligent enough to know where to get good advice.)

[2] When the CO issues an order, then, the XO goes along with it, but I don’t recall Kirk issuing Spock a direct order . I recall him discussing it with Spock, arguing it, but not issuing an order in Spock’s hearing. … I could be wrong on my recall of this last, I haven’t seen the movie for a few months.

But you know what happens if you make Spock deferential to Kirk in those scenes? He looks less powerful, and one of the themes of this movie is how powerful Spock is. Wow, the brass of those writers, to make a full Commander [who’s had years more of experience in the Fleet than Kirk] a “more powerful” character. I think, as I’ve said, that Spock is the more mature of the two men. So far.

Agreed, the writers have not YET made Kirk the powerful, decisive captain he has the potential to be. I’m willing to bet it happens in the next movie.

Kirk has been seasoned now. He is humbler. He realizes he’s not always going to be as lucky as he was the first time out on the Enterprise, because he was damned unlucky the second time. Now he knows he can count on his XO to advise him well, and he knows he can count on his friend Dr. McCoy, and on Lt. Uhura as well. Each of these people will support and advise him. And when they can’t, he’ll make the tough decisions.

610 Captain Slow, Thank You!

“Character Dominance” is not a zero-sum game, people. Roles shift in shifting situations.

Something I’d like to add just in case it’s relevant, is that in the last movie Kirk did not go from cadet to captain. If you look carefully at the transporter console when Chekov is trying to lock onto Kirk and Sulu you can see that it reads Lt. H. Sulu and Lt. J. Kirk. So the promotion wasn’t as drastic as everyone seems to think.

Brevity isn’t always best, and sometimes the legs are just too skinny to support the weight they are being asked to carry. “Too much floor, not enough beam,” as I imagine the housing inspectors might say at the scene of a tragic collapse.

Instead of Spock coming off the transporter with a “Captain, you let them see our ship!” he should have come off with a

“Captain…thank you for saving my life. How did you manage to do so while remaining unseen to the Nibiruans?”

“I didn’t, Spock. That was the cost of getting you back home.”

“You violated the Prime Directive?!”

“Is that the most important thing to remember here? Spock, I SAVED your LIFE!”

There ya go. Spock gets to express thankfulness that he didn’t have to sacrifice his life, he gains knowledge by inquiry that, even if he suspected it to be true before inquiring, he still didn’t have, he sounds deferential to his captain’s authority, and he still has room to report Kirk to Starfleet HQ.

You can’t always express everything you need your audience to know in a pithy sentence.

But if you write it that way Spock doesn’t look so powerful and Kirk doesn’t look so weak. The way it WAS written makes Spock seem in charge doing something heroic, and makes Kirk appear like the XO. Kirk even asks what Spock would do in that situation which deepens the impression that Spock is the more powerful character.

And strength is not on Kirk’s agenda this time around. He’s gone into darkness, and has yet to emerge.

I don’t know whether that’s an intentional part of his arc, or unconscious Kirk-hate.

Something I’d like to add just in case it’s relevant, is that in the last movie Kirk did not go from cadet to captain. If you look carefully at the transporter console when Chekov is trying to lock onto Kirk and Sulu you can see that it reads Lt. H. Sulu and Lt. J. Kirk. So the promotion wasn’t as drastic as everyone seems to think.

***

Yes he DID go from cadet to captain in ST.09 *in the last movie.*

In fact, he went even further, from miscreant barfly to starship captain IN THE LAST MOVIE.

Kirk was still a cadet (not yet graduated from the academy), on suspension at the time Vulcan issued their distress call, and a stowaway onboard the Enterprise. He was promoted to First Officer literally on the way to the space jump he volunteered for. So for starters, in the span of about an hour he was promoted from cadet to lieutenant. He jumped four ranks (midshipman-lieutenant) right off the bat. Then in less than 24 hours he jumped three more ranks to acting Captain. That’s 7 ranks he jumped in a day — surely a record?

So it really doesn’t matter if some yeoman entered Kirk as active duty personnel, once he was discovered on the ship, giving him the rank of acting lieutenant and XO. He made that jump in record time, quickly followed by another record breaking promotion to captain.

Now, time is somewhat arbitrary in Abrams movies, but by all appearances, three days after Vulcan was destroyed, Kirk was officially promoted to captain and given command of the flagship of the fleet. So, no matter how you slice it, at a minimum in about three days Kirk went from mid-term cadet (presumably having been given an honorary graduation) to captain of the Starfleet flagship — that has to be a record in any organization. Now, three days seems awfully quick for all of that to happen considering the cleanup, Pike’s injuries, etc. However, ST09 tells us the destruction of Vulcan occured on stardate 2258.42 (February 11) and the Semi-canon IDW comics show Kirk in command of the Enterprise as of 2258.56 (February 25), so Kirk went from cadet to captain at a maximum in less than two weeks. That’s still got to be a record.

But this presumed quick promotion and honorary graduation, skipping a semester of classes, helps explain why Kirk has no idea who Khan is, even after Khan tells him; unlike in Space Seed where upon having his memory jogged, Kirk remembers admiring Khan. Clearly 20th century history and genetic engineering courses were taught in the final semester of a cadet’s senior year., which Kirk did not complete. Oh well, who needs education when you saved the planet? Just hope he doesn’t visit some of those parallel Earth planets in this reality …

#620 – You have no idea what this Kirk completed or did not complete. He said he would do what others did in four years in three years and it appears that is just what he did do. Clearly, he was at the same level as Uhura, Chekov et al and the only reason he had not been assigned to a ship was because he had been put on academic suspension pending further inquiry. That hearing had been cut short by earth receiving a distress signal from Vulcan. It was not even a given that Kirk would have been booted out of Starfleet.

I suspect that Kirk might be more familiar with the name Hitler than he would be of Khan and besides, whatever Khan did, happened about 300 years ago. Anyway, why would 20th century history be necessarily more important than any other century, when it comes to learning about heroes and villains, technological advances, discovery of various star systems with planets having millions of humanoid inhabitants living on them?

If you think about it, the only really significant event to occur, that was not like the usual warmongering, despot nutcases, natural disasters that plague the earth since forever, was that two humans stepped on an alien world for the first time – Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin’s step on the moon on 20 July 1969. Gaining warp drive capabilities and being visited by an alien race, the Vulcans, would constitute other significant events, but these occurred a lot later.

The need is to get a perspective here. The hubris was all Khan’s and the silliness belonged to the audience because they thought that this Kirk should know who Khan was, as opposed to all the other despotic nutcases that humankind have unfortunately spawned over time as well…

@Dmduncan. I did not mean that comment as an insult, but I ask you too try to see my point of view as well. I have watched every episode of TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT, plus I have seen all of the movies, and read several dozen Trek novels (at minimum), Trek comics, and so on.

In my view Kirk has never been dominant physically in combat, he even got ko’ed by the Finnegan bot (which specifically didn’t have superhuman abilities), never mind getting mauled by the Mugatu, manhandled by Kruge (Kirk got lucky in that one), thrown around engineering by Khan, nearly dying on Rura Penthe for his coat (again lucky), and so many more, what made Kirk a hero, what made him special (to me) was that despite being at a disadvantage he kept going, and found the way to win, which usually wasn’t from superior combat ability, but because of his brains, heart, integrity, and his crew (family).

I think he earned his command because he, like his father, was willing to do whatever it took to protect his crew, his family. Starfleet records in the new timeline record George Kirk as a Captain, as stated by Pike and Spock (in ST09), just like Scotty’s nephew was assuredly given a posthumous promotion to full ensign (stayed at his post, while his classmates fled).

Kirk’s crew ignoring their own pain and loss (they had dozens if not more dead onboard, many more injured, the ship had holes everywhere, not even possibly spaceworthy, barely holding altitude thanks to Kirk’s last acts, systems working erratically or not at all, and so on) to first pursue his killer, then capture Khan and return Kirk to life (btw McCoy was killed and revived in the episode with Finnegan) in my mind none of this makes Kirk a secondary character, rather it cements him as the center of this crew, as they surrender their own needs for the few, the one, and yes I do think the line is apt, and I do not feel that the line’s association with Spock makes it mean Kirk is secondary either.

I really wasn’t judging you before, and I hope you don’t still feel that I am.

Kirk is as much a hero in this alternate universe as he was in the prime one. It is just that the writers, others, seem to feel the need to have him, show him suffer more for who he is, as a person, than it seems previously. I have already given my theory on why that might be and it is not good looking…:(

In my view Kirk has never been dominant physically in combat, he even got ko’ed by the Finnegan bot (which specifically didn’t have superhuman abilities), never mind getting mauled by the Mugatu, manhandled by Kruge (Kirk got lucky in that one), thrown around engineering by Khan, nearly dying on Rura Penthe for his coat (again lucky), and so many more, what made Kirk a hero, what made him special (to me) was that despite being at a disadvantage he kept going, and found the way to win, which usually wasn’t from superior combat ability, but because of his brains, heart, integrity, and his crew (family).

***

Well it depends what you mean by “dominant.”

I am not suggesting that Kirk was always the physically strongest person on the show or even the Enterprise, and I said so above by noting that regardless of who was stronger, Kirk finds a way to come out on top.

That’s true of his fight with Khan, with his altercations with Mr. Spock whose provoked fury he rides like a surfer going to a destination of HIS choosing, and of the Gorn. As for Finnegan (who was not the REAL Finnegan, by the way)—Kirk beat his ass.

TOS Kirk’s moves are also sometimes laughable, such as when he jumps off the wall and delivers an ass-punch to his opponent. Just as Mr. Spock is a not very sophisticated notion of an alien because he was born during a time when the culture at large wasn’t noted for its SF sophistication, Kirk’s moves are also very dated, although there are some exceptions such as when he issues that beatdown of Khan with some cool moves that evidently came from a stuntman who knew what he was doing.

If you have any sense you don’t go back and duplicate the dumb moves, you duplicate the intent by updating the moves for a culture that is much more martial arts savvy today than it was then.

Point is, Kirk WAS a thinking fighter. You couldn’t count on mere strength to beat him.

I can summarize my complaint by what it is that made me aware of it. Something as bothering me about STID which I couldn’t put my finger on until I realized that in TOS I always want to be doing what Kirk is doing. Even in ST.09 I would rather be Kirk than any other character.

And in STID I don’t. In STID I actually admire Scotty more than anyone else. You know, in the movies there’s always a character who’s willing to die to save everyone else.

But in STID we saw Scotty do something more rare and that I think more real people can identify with, either because they’ve been in a similar situation and had to make the same choice, or FAILED to make the same choice: Scotty put his JOB on the line and showed the integrity to do the right thing. Scotty stood up for something at the cost of his job when it would have been so easy to just sign the authorization to save his job.

I wish we had more Scottys around. Sometimes there’s more important things than the fear you have of what you are going to do if you become jobless because you made the right choice when you were being pressured to make the wrong one.

Keachick, “Kirk is as much a hero in this alternate universe as he was in the prime one. It is just that the writers, others, seem to feel the need to have him, show him suffer more for who he is, as a person, than it seems previously. I have already given my theory on why that might be and it is not good looking…:( ”

YES! He is, and people are confused, apparently, that because he’s “not TOS Kirk” he isn’t the hero TOS Kirk was! [scratching head] To paraphrase Yoda, “He …. will be.”

I think the writers are putting him through the mill, showing him suffering, becoming humble, learning his limits and relying on the wisdom of those around him in STiD. This may be in answer to some of us who stated he’d assumed “The Chair” too quickly, or that based on seniority of rank and time in service, Spock should have been the captain in this universe [me], and other criticisms.

In the next movie I believe they will bring Kirk into full maturity. He’s learned an awful lot by now.

Maybe the “Kirk takes a lickin’ and keeps on tickin'” scenarios are to engage the younger male audience as they would be engaged in a videogame? – your Avatar gets the crap kicked out of him and keeps going, earning you more and more points as he achieves his goal. Or it’s to help that youthful male audience identify with how tough Kirk is, how much he can take and still deal.

622 Curious, “Kirk was still a cadet (not yet graduated from the academy), on suspension at the time Vulcan issued their distress call, and a stowaway onboard the Enterprise. He was promoted to First Officer literally on the way to the space jump he volunteered for. So for starters, in the span of about an hour he was promoted from cadet to lieutenant. ”

To be fair, though, the other cadets in his class [Sulu, Uhura, Et. Al.] were cadets and suddenly lieutenants when they boarded the Enterprise.

My military mind said “WHUT” but my retcon mind said, “Perhaps they are promoted from Ensign to LTJG at the end of their 3rd year, and from LTJG to LT at the end of their 4th” …? Not how the service runs Academies these days, but who the heck knows ;-}

628. Marja – October 27, 2013
Keachick, “Kirk is as much a hero in this alternate universe as he was in the prime one. It is just that the writers, others, seem to feel the need to have him, show him suffer more for who he is, as a person, than it seems previously. I have already given my theory on why that might be and it is not good looking…:( ”

YES! He is, and people are confused, apparently, that because he’s “not TOS Kirk” he isn’t the hero TOS Kirk was! [scratching head] To paraphrase Yoda, “He …. will be.”

***

Well I’m not confused, I’m very clear. I don’t deny that Kirk is a hero in STID, but he’s a different kind of hero. He’s the hero that SPOCK used to be. That’s the problem because we’re sorta getting the message here that these guys are interchangeable in the hero department when they are not. Clearly they are not interchangeable in other areas because Spock never makes such a complete dunce of himself.

And I wish I could be as confident as you that Kirk was going to be Kirk again, but now I’m sensing a pattern.

We’ve got two movies where Spock Prime appeared in each one for a grand total of TWO Spocks per movie, and no movies where Kirk Prime gets any sort of appearance.

Now that’s not Bob’s fault, since he wrote such a breautiful scene involving Kirk Prime that he got outvoted in the shooting of, but still…there’s a pattern.

@629. Marja,
“Not how the service runs Academies these days, but who the heck knows”

Thanks for pointing that out.

They kind of screwed up didn’t they? Trying to identify the characters with their iconic look and labels from the start. I almost wonder if they got confused as graduates of West Point do become lieutenants upon graduation.

I went back to the transcript. Spock calls Uhura “lieutenant”, but in the same breath calls Kirk “cadet”. One could say Uhura got “special” treatment from Spock, just as she did in her ship assignment (though you would never know she was a lietenat or an admiral from her uniform). It could be said pilots come in at a higher rank, than regular cadets in Sulu’s case.

Also, in the world of Star Trek, there is no lieutenant JG, so that’s one less rank to skip over. And perhaps one less step from cadet. Maybe this was a “wartime” promotion considering that the ships were being crewed by cadets. Perhaps underclassmen were given temporary field promotions to Ensign, whereas 4th year/graduates were given field promotions to lieutenant, to give some kind of command structure. Considering they all died at Vulcan with the exception of the Enterprise, and the Enterprise saved the Earth, that all those cadets given temporary promotions kept them in recognition of service?

Nevertheless, Kirk was promoted from suspended stowaway cadet to first officer, regardless of rank, in a matter of hours. I’m assuming a lot of lietenants don’t serve as first officers on navy flagships.

Assuming we see the Federation-Klingon War in the next film, and assuming Dr. Marcus becomes a real a love interest for Kirk, then we already have a few clues as to how Kirk will evolve from STiD. I think we’d probably see a more militaristic Kirk along the lines of Balance of Terror and if that is true then we can expect a more disciplined Captain and, conceivably, at least one submarine-warfare type scene. But how are they going to balance that with Kirk’s romantic parts? And how can they do a story about a major war while giving us some exploration? I think that is the challenge.

“Spock’s PTSD is not very interesting to begin with. This was the least interesting thing they could have done with the character.”

Fortunately, I’m glad that this is your opinion, and I’m dismissing it simply because it ignores the fact that Spock’s home planet and mother perished. This opens up new territory for the character, especially, given the year the Nerada Incident occurred, Spock is still not the Spock who served with Kirk circa 2266 (vis-a-vis TOS Era).

***

“What made Spock’s character interesting in TOS was how unemotional he was, not how emotional. In Season 3 episode “The Enterprise Incident” Spock is captured by a female romulan commander who he ends up seducing while colluding with Kirk to steal the cloaking device. Spock’s portrayal was cold, damn cold. Even when he was being romantic.”

This isn’t TOS, and the best episodes were when pure logic was not able to protect him from his predicament (i.e. “The Galileo Seven” and “All Our Yesterdays”). Ultimately, a writer has to have some flexibility in how a character deals with a scenario. In the case of NuSpock, it’s “survivor’s guilt’.

633, dswynne, I support this view. “Fortunately, I’m glad that this is [SevenSkies] opinion, and I’m dismissing it simply because it ignores the fact that Spock’s home planet and mother perished. This opens up new territory for the character, especially, given the year the Nerada Incident occurred, Spock is still not the Spock who served with Kirk circa 2266 (vis-a-vis TOS Era).” I have some additional points on this theme below.

634, duncan, “…the AU is being used as an excuse to punish Kirk … What’s his crime? Outshining Spock for so long. Beating him at tri-d chess.”

I get that you’re a Kirk fan, but I’m starting to think your idea of the Kirk and Spock working relationship/friendship in the AU is colored, perhaps, by some extreme resentment of what the writers did with Kirk and Spock in this AU.

In TOS Kirk’s personal story was about sometimes feeling burdened with the responsibilities of command and the sacrifices he made to be a great commanding officer. In the AU, it’s about Kirk overcoming a troubled youth to become this man, to begin assuming the responsibilities of a true leader [which TOS Kirk usually bore with grace]. He was a great tactical thinker and often did exercise his ‘Kirk Luck’ [‘we’ll come through because we’re fighting for Right.] Calculating the odds and taking a gamble.

Other than his natural goodness, tactical thinking, courage and great heart, AU Kirk has not yet reached that point.

STXI was about Kirk being a great tactical thinker and a very brave young man who takes huge chances to achieve a goal. STiD is about Kirk learning humility and about reality – that sometimes things don’t work out the way you’d hoped; that sometimes you’re not the perfect person to lead; and sometimes great sacrifice is required for the common good. Now that he has these lessons under his belt, I predict we’ll see him having grown into that maturity to be the great captain TOS Kirk was.

As for Spock “outshining Kirk,” Spock and Kirk have had different strengths in both universes, but different personal issues in each. In TOS it was Spock trying to submerge his human nature to allow the side of Vulcan teachings to exercise Logic above all things; in this AU [largely related to his personal traumas] it’s Spock trying to submerge his extreme Vulcan emotions [the reason Surak introduced Logic as a means of emotional control to the Vulcan people], to allow himself to cease being so isolated/lonely and to allow his more moderate side to come through.

Curious, to reiterate my “My military mind said “WHUT” but my retcon mind said, “Perhaps they are promoted from Ensign to LTJG at the end of their 3rd year, and from LTJG to LT at the end of their 4th” …?”

and your They … screwed up didn’t they? Trying to identify the characters with their iconic look and labels from the start. …[G]raduates of West Point do become lieutenants upon graduation. West Pointers become Second Lieutenants, then First Lieutenants, which would be 0-1s ascending to 0-2s, and next step is “Captain” 0-3. In the Sea Services this is Ensign 0-1, LTJG 0-2, and LT 0-3.

I went back to the transcript. Spock calls Uhura “lieutenant”, but in the same breath calls Kirk “cadet”. One could say Uhura got “special” treatment from Spock, just as she did in her ship assignment. I think Spock addresses Kirk as “Cadet” because Kirk was on academic suspension, and technically his field rank had not been assigned, and Spock is by-the-book on that one.

As for the favoritism, I don’t think it goes as far as rank address. I will argue that Uhura was originally assigned to the Enterprise, and that Spock assigned her to the Farragut to spare them both the possible embarrassment of becoming known as a couple. Or to allow himself to be impartial when on board the Enterprise. Or some damn thing. Then Uhura insisted that she was assigned to the Enterprise, using Spock’s own accolades to defend her assignment.

…though you would never know [Uhura] was a lieutenant or an admiral from her uniform). I agree with you about the uniform! [Injustice to female officers must end! Just cause they’re wearing a minidress, they don’t get to show ranks, WTF?]

It could be said pilots come in at a higher rank, than regular cadets in Sulu’s case. Yeah, that’s possible … maybe once they receive their piloting certificates they’re promoted, even while still at the Academy.

Also, in the world of Star Trek, there is no lieutenant JG, so that’s one less rank to skip over. And perhaps one less step from cadet. Agreed.

Maybe this was a “wartime” promotion considering that the ships were being crewed by cadets. Perhaps underclassmen were given temporary field promotions to Ensign, whereas 4th year/graduates were given field promotions to lieutenant, to give some kind of command structure. Considering they all died at Vulcan with the exception of the Enterprise, and the Enterprise saved the Earth, that all those cadets given temporary promotions kept them in recognition of service? Yep – I agree with this. This would explain Chekov still being an Ensign, and so much more.

We could even posit that entrants to SFA already have Bachelor’s Degrees and are at the Academy to study for Doctorate degrees. Sulu says in STXI that he’s an Astrophysicist [Wow]. Perhaps they spend much of their time at the Academy learning Starfleet operations, and the workings of starships [far more complicated than today’s aircraft carrier, perhaps]? And the rest of their time is taken with very advanced academics, preparatory to boarding a starship, which advances the causes of the Federation, of Science, History, Linguistics, interplanetary Culture and more, and defends the Federation? Thus their promotion upon completion of their fourth year SF education, to the rank of LT.

626 Duncan, ” In STID I actually admire Scotty more than anyone else. You know, in the movies there’s always a character who’s willing to die to save everyone else.

“But in STID we saw Scotty do something more rare and that I think more real people can identify with, either because they’ve been in a similar situation and had to make the same choice, or FAILED to make the same choice: Scotty put his JOB on the line and showed the integrity to do the right thing. Scotty stood up for something at the cost of his job when it would have been so easy to just sign the authorization to save his job.”

I agree very much with this, although Kirk and Spock also were willing to die to save everyone else. Kirk in the Reactor Core and Spock on the Bridge, when the Big E was goin’ down.

619 Batleth “Yeah… all three people who care about that character [Gaila].”

[1] Assumption on your part, knowledge of the many fanfic stories written about, or featuring Gaila, on mine.

[2] I was addressing Mike Johnson of the comics, which you don’t have to force yourself to read. Gaila seemed to be a “disposable female” character in STXI. I think she deserves more “screen time” but doubt [sadly] that she’ll be in the third movie. Comics are a good way to do that.

#634 – “What’s his crime? Outshining Spock for so long. Beating him at tri-d chess.”

Kirk’s “crime” is to have his father die, saving him and his mother, on the day of his birth. Further, he was brought up by a maternal uncle who resented the responsibility and did not like nor understand this very bright child. The way I have always seen it, unfortunately, Winona Kirk could/did not bond properly with her newborn son, Jim, due to shock… and often found it easier to be working, even if it meant being off-world for a while at times. There is no one to blame here, just how life can be sometimes…:(

Present day (US?) philosophy says that no one can be a *victim* – they are meant to be survivors, and if they don’t, then the fault/blame lies with them. In order to have a victim, there has to be perpetrator (excluding foreign terrorists belonging to Al Qaeda, for instance). However, to acknowledge that there is a perpetrator, this does come back to realizing that this person is as much a product of this society as anybody/everybody else. Certainly, people have some freewill as in they can choose not to rape, murder, steal etc, but what is it that allows for the idea that some person might have in choosing to do these things? Just as we, as a society, like to honour those who do well (whether it be it be in fighting against an aggressor in a war, in business, in education, in marriage and family life etc), what about the others that our society also shares some responsibility in producing?

Therefore, it is much easier to have *survivors*, as opposed to *victims* and so our hero Kirk gets to ‘survive’ the shocking brutality meted out to him and that’s just as well because he would certainly/quickly become persona non grata if he did not…:(

“This isn’t TOS, and the best episodes were when pure logic was not able to protect him from his predicament (i.e. “The Galileo Seven” and “All Our Yesterdays”). Ultimately, a writer has to have some flexibility in how a character deals with a scenario. In the case of NuSpock, it’s “survivor’s guilt’.”

———–

How can Kirk’s death be curable and Mr. Spock’s PTSD incurable? I find this implausible. You would think 23rd century medicine would have progressed from where we are today but apparently Kahn’s blood is the magic cure for anything so why didn’t they just give some to Spock? As much as I loved STiD this was one of the weaker aspects of the story.

@Dmduncan. When I say that I never saw Kirk as being dominant physically in fights I mean that he never struck me as being especially skilled in hand to hand combat, nearly every fight he was was not due to his skills in hand to hand but rather due to his tenacity and refusal to give up.

Regarding Finnegan, yes I know that wasn’t the real Finnegan, which is why I called him “the Finnegan bot” before. However I just watched that episode yesterday and I gotta say, Kirk did not kick its a–. The fight between Kirk and the Finnegandroid had three distinct phases, Kirk mentions Finnegan to Spock, sees the Finnegandroid and goes after it, they fight briefly and the Finnegandroid runs off, Kirk follows and meets a replicant of a woman named Rose (blonde and he knew her 15 years ago, possibly the Blonde lab tech from the academy).

A while later, after McCoy is killed by the Knight (impaled with a lance), Kirk encounters the Finnegan bot again, they fight much longer this time, and Kirk is out cold for the commercial break with “Finnegan” gloating over him. After Kirk wakes back up he fights the robot again and barely manages a victory, like I said I just watched it yesterday so its really fresh in my head.

#642 – Just a little correction – In Shore Leave, Kirk meets up with a former girlfriend called RUTH, not Rose. I am Rose and I am nothing like Ruth with her sickly “Oh, Jim darling”…:)

#641 – “How can Kirk’s death be curable and Mr. Spock’s PTSD incurable? I find this implausible.”

Well, for starters, whoever said that Spock’s PTSD was incurable? Secondly, Kirk’s death was physical whereas Spock’s problems are psychological. Just because doctors can perform transplants does not mean that all psychoses can be treated as well. We are dealing with two different conditions.

It is quite possible that James Kirk might suffer some kind of martyr or persecution complex, but those are psychological conditions. He can still be physically healthy and active. What he does show is a resilience of a good spirit in order to survive, with good humour, all that he has gone through. However, how much more pounding can this kind, resilient soul be expected to take?

If the IDW comic is correct, what the hell was Kirk doing around Klingons? Was not he and the Enterprise supposed to have embarked on the five year mission, exploring NEW worlds…There ain’t nuthin’ new about Klingons…:(!

“This isn’t TOS, and the best episodes were when pure logic was not able to protect him from his predicament (i.e. “The Galileo Seven” and “All Our Yesterdays”). Ultimately, a writer has to have some flexibility in how a character deals with a scenario. In the case of NuSpock, it’s “survivor’s guilt’.”

———–

“How can Kirk’s death be curable and Mr. Spock’s PTSD incurable? I find this implausible. You would think 23rd century medicine would have progressed from where we are today but apparently Kahn’s blood is the magic cure for anything so why didn’t they just give some to Spock? As much as I loved STiD this was one of the weaker aspects of the story.”

***

While I will agree that those aspects you mentioned are “weak”, that doesn’t mean that those aspects are “implausible”. Spock’s death in WoK was “curable”, and Spock’s PSTD in STiD was addressed (though, there should have at least some scene where Spock was speaking to a Counselor (maybe a younger Laxwanna Troi) helping him deal with his trauma. But I don’t get the notion that Spock’s PTSD is incurable. Yes, you can cope, and adjust, but it never really goes away…

Well I wish there was something in STID that tells me you are right as opposed to just hoping that Kirk recovers in the next movie, but as I said before, if he can go from miscreant barfly to starship captain in one movie, it is entirely possible for the beginning of his legend to fit into the sequel we got, which didn’t happen.

He didn’t exactly win his ship back. He was fired, and got rehired so that he could die, and then when the guy that rehired him got killed by Khan instead, Kirk sort of re-inherits his old job, so if feels like the problem that his firing was written to correct (he got promoted too fast in ST.09) is still there.

It doesn’t feel properly resolved to me.

If anything, it feels like Spock ought to be captain again since STID really belonged to him.

This movie could have been a test, rather than a punishment, of Kirk, i.e., a movie in which he proves that he deserved to get promoted in the first place by going through the fire and coming out as the beginning of the guy we know BECAUSE of what he does in the movie to establish himself.

642. Who cares – October 28, 2013

Well if he’s Finne-bot and the purpose of the planet is to entertain its guests with real-seeming adventures, then Finne-bot is built to order to compete against THAT Kirk, not the Kirk who was tormented by the real Finnegan back in his academy days.

And I’ve seen that episode so many frackin times it will never be unfresh in my mind. Kirk knocked that mofo out with a grin on his face. he enjoyed the hell out of it.

Another problem is that you are judging the past with today’s eyes. Can’t do that, man. We are today a MUCH more martial arts savvy world than we were when Star Trek was in its heyday. At the same time that Star Trek was being aired, Bruce Lee was a mere SIDEKICK to the Green Hornet, and he is THE man who more than anyone else popularized martial arts in America later on in his career.

By 1960’s TV standards Kirk was a warrior, and if you reboot TOS today you don’t go back to the 1960’s and give him his old moves back that were being invented on the fly week to week by lord knows who, you give him ones that modern audiences can recognize as legitimate to make the same point to modern audiences that the TV was making to the martial arts rubes back in 1967 that Kirk was a fighter.

What was Kirk teaching Charlie X in those funky red martial arts gis? Jui Jitsu. Kirk knowing real martial arts is TOS canon even if the different advice he got from episode to episode came from folks who were making stuff up so that it just looked “cool” on screen.

When Kirk fights Khan in engineering in Space Seed, Kirk (or Shatner’s stunt man, rather) does an AWESOME headscissors takedown of Khan, wrapping his legs around Khan’s neck and totally flipping him. So like the Charlie X training scene, they did occasionally have Kirk doing REAL martial arts, and in the case of that Khan move, a very difficult piece of action.

” Just because doctors can perform transplants does not mean that all psychoses can be treated as well. We are dealing with two different conditions.”

I would’ve expected Starfleet Medical to have a cure for PTSD. Aren’t there treatments for such things even today? STiD gives us the impression that Starfleet is incompetent. They can neither cure the young girl nor rid Spock of his PTSD. But Kirk and the young girl are saved from death by Kahn’s blood which also happens to be compatible with any human blood-type? lol

——–

@dswynne

“But I don’t get the notion that Spock’s PTSD is incurable. Yes, you can cope, and adjust, but it never really goes away…”

So far we have seen NuSpock go through this condition for two films. I say ‘incurable’ because till now there has been no indication that he will be cured of his condition even by the time of the third film, and had Starfleet Medical been able to cure him wouldn’t he have been cured already? Unless there’s some reason not to? It’s like the writers insist on having him carry this burden and not let us explore the less predictable aspects of his character. Granted, the alternate universe was meant to flesh out the characters in new and different ways, but I don’t find what they have done with Spock to be interesting or original. His character deserves better than to feel bad about himself all the time.

@Dmduncan, I really don’t judge TOS Kirk’s martial arts abilities based on any comparisons other than his opponents, that is I keep his skills firmly placed mentally in the world where Tasha Yar had supposedly been a student of the “finest physical training program in the galaxy” (Starfleet training). Under that criterion, with Tasha, Worf, Ben Sisko, Commodore Decker (cause he took out that security guard with two strikes), and a few others at the top end of the scale for Hand to hand combat, Kirk places solidly at the top of the middle ranks, from my point of view.

Still its a minor point to me, as I have said before, Kirk’s combat skills were never the really important part of the character for me.

BTW, mentioning that I had seen that episode yesterday was not meant to imply that I had never seen it before, I have been watching Trek since I was born basically, and I have seen all of the episodes many, many times over. Rather I was just clarifying that I was not speaking as someone relying on a Memory Alpha article on the episode or some wikipedia summary or something like that, but that I was speaking of what I personally saw on the screen.

Anyhow, I’m off for some more Star trek online before I get back to the discussion with my yahoo group about the speeds of Trek ships, LLAP.

@636 Marja,
“West Pointers become Second Lieutenants, then First Lieutenants, which would be 0-1s ascending to 0-2s, and next step is “Captain” 0-3.”

But Aren’t second lieutenants just called “lieutenants” like lieutenant Colonels are just called “colonel”? Either way, in Abrams’ Trek there is no lietenant JG, so it’s just ensign-lietenant.

——————
“As for the favoritism, I don’t think it goes as far as rank address.”

Yes I know. Uhura is a lieutenant, as is Sulu because that’s what they were in TOS, I doubt there was very much though behind that decision at all. Kudos to the video graphics guy who labeled Kirk as a lieutenant, at least he was thinking.

——————-
“Sulu says in STXI that he’s an Astrophysicist [Wow].”

That’s a nod to WNMHGB, where Sulu was the Astro-sciences department head, prior to becoming the helmsman. I’m sure there’s a promotion in there somewhere …

I think the point being argueing successfully is that these characters are very different in the AU than they were in the established universe.

And to me, that’s the problem.

The real issue for these producers was the decision making process when they began a few years ago – the question of what would attract the largest audience. They seemed to feel that Kirk, Spock et al were what people wanted to see.

They seemed to acknowledge that fans didnt want a re-boot (I agree because a re-boot eliminates the 50 years of history and emotional connection and thus, we wouldn’t “care” about these characters).

They came up with a very unique way to have the very same characters that exist in the established universe, yet gave them the opportunity to unburden themselves from canon.

But thats the problem. They didnt really.

Firstly. they HUGELY violated canon with their take on time travel. Canon has established that Spock Prime didnt go back to a new universe, it was the SAME universe. That was the entire premise of The Voyage Home and many other episodes.

And they also established that destiny was trying to correct the changes in the timeline. They went with a WoK allusion on purpose. They cant have it both ways, wanting to unburden themselves from Canon and yet serve it so often.

Ultimately, these writers just dont “get” Star Trek. And if Orci is a Trek fan perhaps his voice wasnt heard enough. But there were so many small things that could have been better.

The fact Sarek is completely different annoys me. He shouldn’t have been giving young Spock a pep talk about how he’s different and can choose his own path. Sarek clearly felt Spock should resist his human side and embrace his Vulcan side. Spock’s choice to go to Starfleet caused a huge rift in his relationship with his father which.

09 would have been better served if Sarek had been portrayed this way. It would have made his conversation with Spock on the Enterprise much more emotional.

All this aside, they have managed, in just two films, to royally screw things up. I dont have a lot of confidence they can fix it all in the third one (my suggestion would be to have a 50th Anniversary epic that spans the generations and “fixes” the timeline).

The command structure in Starfleet is all goofballs. Rather, it’s just more simple than today’s is. Which is good, I think, because our military ranks are bloated with unnecessary ranks.

That’s one thing they could add to. Identify what the rank structure is and put it on a poster on a wall in the cafeteria or something. Get a shot of it going by. Have a conversation occur with that poster between two characters. Maybe the conversation is about rank, or who’s in command.

Those kinds of posters where you see the relative rank insignia, epaulets, hashmarks, and cuff lacing really do exist in the halls of various military installations. They sort of replace wall art.

I wanted to see my favorite TOS characters in new adventures unburdened by canon. That’s the genius of what they did in ST.09. But what I’m starting to see is different characters with the same names in roles reversed from what they were in TOS, as if the characters themselves are interchangeable.

TOS Spock would not have PTSD because he had non-human ways of dealing with emotions. That people see, want to see, and argue strongly FOR this new Spock having PTSD really shows how human they perceive this new Spock to be, and therefore how unlike Nimoy’s character he is.

But that IS a side effect of turning Spock into the hero. You make him more like your classic idea of the hero. He’s the man of action who defeats the foe and gets the girl.

But a guy who manages to control his emotions to a non-human degree just makes it harder for a real human to identify with as the top guy in a show or movie, but THAT Spock is Nimoy Spock.

I thought the AU was going to give us the same characters in new adventures, not new characters in old adventures (and by that I mean that once again one of the two major characters must die fixing the Enterprise to defeat Khan).

There are just some things in Star Trek that are done so well that you should never risk trying to mimic or duplicate them because of the comparison you will force people to make. And where STID does allow us to draw comparisons to TWOK, STID looks much weaker.

And I’m not saying they TRIED to top TWOK. I just wonder what made them think there was more to gain than lose by making the comparison?

Thank heaven the film was a financial success, but I think a percentage of the feedback for the movie you just made comes with its sequel. If box office drops for the next movie, it will be in part because STID did not give enough audiences the requisite level of excitement to come back for more of what they think will be the same. (I’m a fan and I saw STID 50% less than ST.09, i.e., 3 times in theaters vs. 6 times in theaters).

Now I don’t know whether that percentage, whatever it is, is enough to make or break a given movie, but is audience alienation, as far as it is within your power to avoid, ever profitable?

I should have added to my personal viewing stats above that right now I’m in the mood to see the next movie at least once and ONLY once if the trend I saw in STID continues, so that my feedback-by-attendance on STID will be given with its sequel.

Of course, it’s also possible that my attendance will jump back up with a sequel I love, but now that I know what to look for as far the trend, I’ll spot it in one viewing if it continues, and I’ll probably tune out the way I did for Enterprise when I realized that show wasn’t going anywhere interesting to me.

We know they wanted to bring back Khan since 09 but this was terrible.

Personally, I liked the “death” scene as a homage. But Kirk shouldn’t have died. Just like he shouldn’t have been promoted from Cadet to Captain. Just like Sarek shouldn’t be father of the year. Just like Chekov shouldn’t even be in these films.

There were smarter, more organic ways to bring this crew together than simply “hey look, they’re all together. Awesome”.

Far too many mistakes by big budget writers/producers. It’s hard to respect an effort that shoddy.

BTW, I agree about the ranks. I know some Trekkers hated when Meyer came in an “militarized” Star Trek but it came it atmosphere and depth. I think its important we can relate Trek to the present because that is what Trek is – us in the future, not science fantasy.

One thing that always bugs me in the movies now is how they throw the term Captain around. Whenever someone watches the ship, they are “Captain”. Pretty silly. They made being Captain seem like no big deal.

‘I wanted to see my favorite TOS characters in new adventures unburdened by canon.’

This has to be the best statement that provides clarity, and nicely sums up the reason for the blowback STID experienced. ST09 was a great starting point, with the promise of new adventures. Instead, they gave us a mash up of Treks greatest hits. Disappointing that such a marvelous opportunity has been lost…..

“But Kirk and the young girl are saved from death by Khan’s blood which also happens to be compatible with any human blood-type? lol”

You keep making silly statements. If you actually watched the movie, you would see that H/K was using specialized medical equipment to extract the compound from his blood that would bring about regeneration of sick/dying or dead cells. No doubt the girl’s father had to give H/K a sample of her own blood, so that he could synthesise a match. This is also what Dr McCoy would have done.

It is also likely that the girl would have also received transfusions of her own (stored) blood or from some compatible donor just as what happens today. Dr McCoy told Kirk that he underwent a number of transfusions. Starfleet Medical keep members’ of Starfleet blood in store, both on the Enterprise (in Kirk and its crew’s case) and on earth. Kirk was on earth when he received his life-saving treatment.

Why assume that a cure can or will be found for everything that might afflict a human or indeed a human/vulcan hybrid? Trying to find cures for problems of a psychological nature have proved to be the trickiest of all.

The normal grieving process takes about two years in the more usual circumstances. However, what happened with Vulcan was anything but usual/normal and it had only been about a year when we meet Spock again in STID. Lord only knows what is going on with the other surviving vulcans.
It is also likely that those there like Kirk could, indeed would, quite easily be affected by what happened as well. Nobody could have foreseen somebody even being able to do what Nero, let alone carry it out.

Grief – try to imagine and feel…Sense what these individuals would be going through and why.

I can see Star Trek continuing on both the big screen and small screen up until 2038. What would be the registry number of a Federation warship, i.e. the USS Vengeance? Would something like USS Vengeance DT-0002 be ideal?

No reason to say I’m making silly statements just because you disagree with me.

———

“It is also likely that the girl would have also received transfusions of her own (stored) blood or from some compatible donor just as what happens today. Dr McCoy told Kirk that he underwent a number of transfusions.”

Yes, Dr. McCoy told Kirk he underwent a number of transfusions. So what about the girl? Were Kahn or her father trained to be doctors in any way shape or form? How would they know how to safely perform blood transfusions or any such operation? We can assume from what we saw in the movie that Harewood kept it a secret from Starfleet Medical, meaning, no doctors were involved in the young girl’s transfusion. All we see is Kahn extracting blood from his arm, storing it in a tube and delivering it to Harewood who does not think twice about injecting it into his daughter’s bloodstream. We did not see the girl go through multiple tranfusions as Kirk allegedly had.

“Why assume that a cure can or will be found for everything that might afflict a human or indeed a human/vulcan hybrid? Trying to find cures for problems of a psychological nature have proved to be the trickiest of all.”

I’m not assuming a cure will be found for Spock. In fact I have said the exact opposite, that Spock has been given a disease that is seemingly incurable while Kirk and the young girl who were threatened with far more serious conditions were magically cured as presented to us in the film. Like I said already, if Spock’s PTSD were curable he would have been cured by now. But no, the movie leads one to believe that death itself can be cured while Spock’s condition is too difficult to cure.

“Lord only knows what is going on with the other surviving vulcans.”

Exactly. Because it was never shown to us in the movie. Unless you consider Spock-prime’s one little scene where you can just catch a glimpse of New Vulcan behind him. And even then we don’t see anything but Spock-prime talking on space-Skype from his quarters.

@647 (SkiesSeven): I’m not really following you. The only thing that I can say is that if PTSD is “curable”, then there wouldn’t be a position for Deanna Troi to fulfill, nor would Captain Picard have gone “Ahab” during “First Contact”. We do know that in TOS, there were dedicated psychiatric facilities (“Dagger of the Mind”, “Whom Gods Destroy”), so it’s not like mental illness has been “cured”. I assume that PTSD is curable, but to what degree depends on the person. IMO, given that Spock doesn’t see himself as “human”, and being a private person, his problem is that he feels that he has no support mechanism to deal with his PTSD (as depicted in the comic books), especially considering the scale of his loss (i.e. loss of his mother and home planet). So, Spock copes as best as he can, by deliberately shutting other people out, and be as rational as possible, which is something that both Kirk and Uhura points out as being a problem that THEY see, but wrongly assumed that Spock, ever the private person, doesn’t care that THEY care. If, that makes any sense…

I think the point being arguing successfully is that these characters are very different in the AU than they were in the established universe.

And to me, that’s the problem.

1) Why would it be? Would you have a problem if they simply said, “Okay, these characters have been re-imagined”? You’d still be kvetching over how different these characters are from the TOS versions, ignoring the fact that, from a marketing perspective, the TOS characters are iconic in pop-culture. Why do you think they cancelled “Enterprise”? They saw that the franchise was neither getting new audience nor keeping the same audience.

The real issue for these producers was the decision making process when they began a few years ago – the question of what would attract the largest audience. They seemed to feel that Kirk, Spock et al were what people wanted to see.

2) Which they have succeeded in doing. You may not have liked the rebooted movie series, but you, me and everyone here grew to have particular attachments to the TOS characters. That’s why we’re all here discussing the merits of a film, STiD, that has so polarize its fanbase, with new fans interacting with older ones.

They seemed to acknowledge that fans didnt want a re-boot (I agree because a re-boot eliminates the 50 years of history and emotional connection and thus, we wouldn’t “care” about these characters).

They came up with a very unique way to have the very same characters that exist in the established universe, yet gave them the opportunity to unburden themselves from canon.

But thats the problem. They didnt really.

3) Yes they did, back in ST 2009. The problem was STiD, with it’s over-reliance on references to build a plot around.

Firstly. they HUGELY violated canon with their take on time travel. Canon has established that Spock Prime didnt go back to a new universe, it was the SAME universe. That was the entire premise of The Voyage Home and many other episodes.

4) You should see Max Landis’ “The Death and Return of Superman” (found on YouTube). There is a part where Max is talking to his father, John Landis, about rules in storytelling. Basically, there aren’t any rules in storytelling because it’s ALL FICTION, and that includes how the rules of “Time Travel” in ST is depicted. However, the more important lesson is that character in story matters, something that we all can agree was lacking in STiD.

And they also established that destiny was trying to correct the changes in the timeline. They went with a WoK allusion on purpose. They cant have it both ways, wanting to unburden themselves from Canon and yet serve it so often.

5) Agreed.

Ultimately, these writers just dont “get” Star Trek. And if Orci is a Trek fan perhaps his voice wasnt heard enough. But there were so many small things that could have been better.

6) Unless you are a mind-reader, this is hear-say. The best you can say is that Orci’s version of what is Star Trek to a modern audience is not YOUR version of what is Star Trek. That’s a lot more fair than accusing someone who has frequent these boards while steering a comic book tie-in to NuTrek of not “getting” Star Trek. The fact is, Orci did is homework; the other fact is that he got lazy in the presentation, although Landelof has some share in the blame as one of the co-writers.

The fact Sarek is completely different annoys me. He shouldn’t have been giving young Spock a pep talk about how he’s different and can choose his own path. Sarek clearly felt Spock should resist his human side and embrace his Vulcan side. Spock’s choice to go to Starfleet caused a huge rift in his relationship with his father which.

7) Now, this is silly. Other than “Journey to Babel”, STIII, STIV and Sarek’s appearance in TNG we get very little of Sarek’s insights vis-a-vis his relationship with his son…his ADULT SON with whom he has had a fallen out early on, and later in life. But most importantly, we ALL know that parents can be contradictory, as we grow from child to adult. Does that mean Sarek is a hypocrite? No, that’s just him being a parent.

09 would have been better served if Sarek had been portrayed this way. It would have made his conversation with Spock on the Enterprise much more emotional.

8) I thought it was fine, given the context that the woman both Sarek and Spock had JUST DIED.

All this aside, they have managed, in just two films, to royally screw things up. I dont have a lot of confidence they can fix it all in the third one (my suggestion would be to have a 50th Anniversary epic that spans the generations and “fixes” the timeline).

9) Disagree. As said somewhere else, the execution was not up to par, but I see how the story arc, the journey of Kirk and company to what they are suppose to be, will end with them being the icons they WE know and love. Besides, Paramount isn’t about to reboot their franchise any time soon anyway, so…that’s that.

Spock doesn’t “see” himself as human because he has copper-based green blood, his organs are in different places, and he grew up on an alien planet where logic over emotion *was* naturally ingrained into that planet’s inhabitants.

I think it’s fair to imagine Spock as having NO human genes at all, and that Amanda’s womb was where Amanda insisted he be implanted and nourished with the help of vulcan technology.

One thing is for sure: Conception will not NATURALLY occur between copper based and iron based humanoids.

647 SkiesSevenI would’ve expected Starfleet Medical to have a cure for PTSD. Aren’t there treatments for such things even today? STiD gives us the impression that Starfleet is incompetent. They can neither cure the young girl nor rid Spock of his PTSD. But Kirk and the young girl are saved from death by Kahn’s blood which also happens to be compatible with any human blood-type? Lol

Wow, there’s a cure for PTSD? Alert the Veterans Administration! Oh, wait, you acknowledge that there are just “treatments” for it today. Treatments are at present antidepressants and talk therapy, neither of which is available in vast supply b/c of all the veterans who need help.

I can imagine that after the destruction of so many fleet ships at Vulcan, Starfleet may be in the same shape …

I agree with you on the magic blood, but the fact that some diseases are still incurable does not indicate incompetence.

“I’m not really following you. The only thing that I can say is that if PTSD is “curable”, then there wouldn’t be a position for Deanna Troi to fulfill, nor would Captain Picard have gone “Ahab” during “First Contact”.”

Let’s be honest, Deanna Troi was a flawed character. The writers always struggled to come up with a meaningful role for her – both as a counsellor and as a betazoid. Always the one who says “I can’t sense anything”. As for Picard’s whole ordeal with the borg, I think his particular condition was unique because Federation doctors knew very little about the borg when Picard was abducted. Unlike Spock, Picard contracted his condition by being subjected to borg technology and procedures which Federation doctors knew little or nothing about. Spock wasn’t subjected to unknown alien technology like Picard was, nor is his condition unique. So I don’t share your opinion if you’re suggesting that the reason Picard flipped out is the same as Spock losing his planet. Picard suffered an entirely different condition, one that even caused him to hallucinate when in proximity to borg, so it was not merely psychological. But even Picard seemed to have gotten over his anger by the end of First Contact, whereas Spock looks set to continue with his problem for an entire trilogy.

——–

@Marja

“Wow, there’s a cure for PTSD? Alert the Veterans Administration! Oh, wait, you acknowledge that there are just “treatments” for it today”

The film is effectively saying that they still will not have discovered a cure for PTSD in the 23rd century. But Kirk’s death? Totally curable.

You see, the movie is saying that from now on, at any time any where no matter the condition, even if it is death, all they gotta do is use a little more of Kahn’s blood and everything will be alright. Death is now curable in the alternate universe. So why shouldn’t PTSD also be curable in the alternate universe? Are we meant to believe that psychological problems are more difficult to cure than death? Because I’m not buying that explanation.

@663 SkiesSeven,
“Are we meant to believe that psychological problems are more difficult to cure than death?”

Well first, Khan’s blood did not become an option until the end of STID, so we don’t know that Spock hasn’t been cured of his alleged PTSD.

Second, we don’t know that Khan’s blood can cure anything other than biological problems. We don’t know that PTSD manifests itself as a biological problem as far as Khan’s blood is concerned. Evidence suggests that PTSD is at least in part genetic, and may be a direct result of chemical imbalance. Whether Khan’s blood would see either of these things as in need of repair (and exactly how does it do this anyway?), especially considering Khan’s penchant for revenge and generally angry nature, is questionable; not to mention whether physiological issues are indeed at the root of PTSD in the first place.

Then there’s the diagnosis, currently, there are no “lab tests” to diagnose PTSD. The official guidelines rely solely on psychological examination. Do you honestly think Spock would admit to a psychological problem thus allowing diagnosis and treatment, even if the result of a biological imbalance, or heredity? And if PTSD is mostly psychological, or is merely a component that needs to be addressed, then how would you cure it? Remove the memory, and how would Khan’s blood do that?

This particular debate is kind of pointless in my estimation. It seems mainly designed to call into the credibility of Khan’s blood, which is stretched to begin with — not really address Spock’s problem, to the extent he has one.

I am uncertain of your meaning in your choice of the word “naturally”?

If you meant logic was ingrained as part of the natural processes on the planet then you may have just provide an explanation for why Spock and other Vulcans are now behaving differently. I’m just not sure it addresses the Romulans and their get up and go. Unless, it ironically occurred while the planet was experiencing extreme vulcanism?

If you meant naturally as an aside observation meaning “obviously”, then again, in regards to the Romulans at the very least, apparently the ingraining doesn’t always take nor is it as equally strong when it does for all Vulcans?

Except that doesn’t gel with TOS Spock, on a number of occasions, referring to his ongoing struggle between his Vulcan and Human sides.

I do agree that it defies credulity that Spock was naturally conceived. However, we also have half-Betaziods, half-Klingons, half-Romulans and half-Ktarians (at least some of whom were naturally conceived), as well as Bajoran/Cardassian hybrids, in the 24th century. The in-universe explanation is probably that all ‘compatible’ species have Preserver DNA.

@665. Disinvited – October 30, 2013

“If you meant naturally as an aside observation meaning “obviously”, then again, in regards to the Romulans at the very least, apparently the ingraining doesn’t always take nor is it as equally strong when it does for all Vulcans?”

I fully believe the Magic Blood was a huge mistake. Now Orci can come on here and call us lazy viewers for not understanding the bigger picture of things that happened off screen. But it’s not really our job as viewers to let our imaginations run wild to fill in the gaping holes of logic.

My point about Sarek stands. We may not have seen much on screen but what we saw was pretty consistent and they portrayed Sarek “wrong”. I guess if I wasn’t a lazy viewer I could say Nero changed everything but wow, what a stretch.

These writers certainly seem to enjoy writing for Spock more than Kirk. I can see the appeal because he is more complex but Kirk is complex too if they allowed themselves to see past the action hero mystique.

The fact everything about Kirk is now clouded by his father dying young, his mother being absent and having a step-father he didnt seem to get along with is tiresome to me.

It actually seems these writers are portraying their Kirk as someone who never does become the Kirk we all know. And that’s not a story I am interested in.

It actually seems these writers are portraying their Kirk as someone who never does become the Kirk we all know. And that’s not a story I am interested in.

***

I think that’s what bothers me about STID. By the end of ST.09 I felt that Kirk was on track to becoming that person, but in STID it didn’t seem to be much on their minds.

Clearly, when there are check-boxes they want to hit (Kirk becoming captain, Kirk coming back to life), they do hit them, and quickly.

So when I see Kirk languishing for an entire movie with his vitals “way off,” losing his ship, falling back into command for the wrong reasons, switching places with Spock from TWOK, then it makes me wonder if Kirk becoming that guy is on the list at all.

Raising a stink about it might GET it on the list, but I wish I didn’t have to do that.

OMG – So many people think that everything should and would more or less as it was in the prime universe. The planet Vulcan did NOT get imploded into non-existence in the prime universe. In this alternate universe, IT DID and to carry on as if this would not make a difference as to how Sarek might react, upon seeing his wife die and his home planet destroyed, is incredulous to me and terrifying as well.

Why do you feel put down by those who criticize STiD? If you enjoy the movie then nothing should sway your feelings about it. I personally love the film, but also recognize that it had one flaw too many. Like the trans-warp beaming device that Kahn used to transport from Earth all the way to Kronos. What is the point of having starships from now on if one can simply transport to such distances? I think these are fair questions.

That issue about the transwarp beaming device has been covered in other threads. Starships carry lots of people as well as cargo. Khan modified the transwarp beaming device for his own personal use and similar devices have consistently been deemed dangerous.

One cannot explore unknown parts of space using one of these devices either, since destination co-ordinates need to be known. If a region of space has not been explored and charted, no co-ordinates are possible, hence the need for a starship. Starships exploring new parts of space do not go at warp speed, but use the slower impulse drive.

The use of this transwarp beaming device by one person is not a flaw in the film. Besides, Scotty used the term “hop”, in that Harrison (bunny)hopped his way to Kronos… There is no way this device could ever replace starships.

#661 – “I think it’s fair to imagine Spock as having NO human genes at all, and that Amanda’s womb was where Amanda insisted he be implanted and nourished with the help of vulcan technology.”

Except that we have been told that Spock is part Vulcan and part Human. Yes, I agree that conception in the usual manner could not have occurred between Sarek and Amanda, which is where a form of IVF technology came in. Although it may not be strictly canon, Diane Duane’s book Spock’s World tried to explain the process. At about the same time, the world was made aware of conception occurring in a petri-dish and the zygote being implanted into a woman’s womb – in vitro fertilization. I think that the first child conceived by this method was born in 1978 in the US.

The notion that a human female womb would accept an alien foetus is difficult to consider possible. Her body would reject it. People receiving other organs from another human being require lifelong immune-suppressants so that their body will not reject the donor organ.

Spock was a product of genetic manipulation of the human female ova and Vulcan spermatazoa, so what would be created by the union of the two would be compatible for the female carrying such a feotus. That female would have to be the biological mother. Otherwise, the result could be the mother’s body rejecting, killing the alien foetus or that foetus causing the mother’s ill health, even death. Such would most likely occur in the first trimester.

Think Rhesus factor…then imagine what kind of factors could be involved if the child was fully alien Vulcan and the effect on both if a human woman attempted to carry and nurture such a child until it is ready to be born.

Strictly speaking Spock should be female and be more similar to his human mother than the TOS series indicated. Then, the (patriarchal) male writers did not know what is known now…

673, TUP, I agree in part, though I would like to have seen all the cast assembled on Enterprise with Kirk proving himself at the Navigators station and stepping up when Spock and Pike would be unavailable. I don’t agree about Chekov and especially don’t about McCoy.

But it is a damned shame they didn’t do Pike commanding the Enterprise for the whole first movie at least. Greenwood was so great in the role, and we could have watched Kirk’s strengths coming forth.

BTW in the STXI scene in which Kirk is called to account for cheating on the Kobayashi Maru test, Admiral Barnett introduces Spock as “Commander Spock”. Which rank I would love to have seen him fulfilling as Pike’s first officer, YEAH!!! w00t!

However, your Rhesus factor analogy may explain why Spock apparently had no younger siblings. As you know, while the first Rhesus-incompatible pregnancy triggers antibody formation, that pregnancy usually escapes the consequences. It is the subsequent Rhesus-incompatible pregnancies which suffer and require interventions such as intrauterine foetal transfusion to increase the chances of a live birth. I suspect that a copper versus iron incompatibility would be somewhat more extreme than a Rhesus factor incompatibility, so the risks and consequences would be more dire.

Not as difficult to imagine as that a humanoid with copper based blood and a humanoid with iron based blood could produce viable offspring.

So the question is, when it is said that Spock is half human, in WHAT sense is he half human?

Clarifying that sense is where the interpretational latitude is.

And how hard do you want to work to explain it? It’s very easy to come up with a comic bookish explanation. Just make up some imaginary substance that makes it possible. Comic books don’t typically worry about how to explain that a boy gets spider super powers except to say that spider bite + radioactivity seems to do the trick.

I could imagine, for example, that what suits Spock for service with Starfleet is his greater understanding of human behavior relative to other vulcans—an understanding which comes from having a human mother.

But even though he has a human “mother,” that doesn’t necessarily mean he has her genes; adopted children call their non-biological parents mom and dad. Why then would it be necessary to read his “half human” nature as literally as the most literal interpretation of the word “mother?”

On Vulcan, just thinking more like a human than a typical vulcan could be enough to get you called half human.

I can see your point, dmduncan, however the impression given is that Spock is a human/vulcan hybrid. This is not just a matter of Spock being adopted at birth by a human woman, thereby becoming his legal mother.

Why should Spock have had so many difficulties reconciling his human side with his vulcan, even after he had chosen the vulcan way (TOS)? Amanda accepted him and the decisions he made, in both universes.

Spock was of mixed descent, both culturally AND genetically. That was the point of his character.

If you start talking adoption etc, you are opening up another area of controversy and consternation…

I know people aren’t happy with a lot of the extraneous add-ons to the Khan mythos after its TV inception, but I would find it interesting to discover that Sarek used something from Earth “research”, that lead to Khan or that Khan used on himself, that lead to his son’s hybridization being viable. I also like the fact that it could feedback into explaining why Genesis was able to kick start Prime Spock’s cellular regeneration.

“But even though he has a human “mother,” that doesn’t necessarily mean he has her genes; adopted children call their non-biological parents mom and dad. Why then would it be necessary to read his “half human” nature as literally as the most literal interpretation of the word “mother?”

I presume you consider the flashback scene when Sarek says of the newborn Spock “So Human” in Star Trek V to be apocryphal… I thought the movies were canon…

Well that scene always felt odd to me that Spock was born in a cave. But what’s far stranger is that Spock remembers his own birth. But even if you completely ignored TFF, there is no way you could say that Spock is completely Vulcan. In ST09 he says that the Science Academy’s record is untarnished because he is half-human.

“One cannot explore unknown parts of space using one of these devices either, since destination co-ordinates need to be known. If a region of space has not been explored and charted, no co-ordinates are possible, hence the need for a starship. ”

“If a region of space has not been explored and charted, no co-ordinates are possible”

I disagree with that. Rough coordinates for a given area of space that a Federation astronomer could identify through Astronomy and computer simulation (i.e. to estimate where those locations are in today’s time) should be easily doable in the 23rd Century. You shouldn’t have to send a ship to that spot first.

Deadline is reporting that Paramount is considering Attack The Block
DIrector Joe Cornish for Star Trek 3.
ATB is his only film credit so far,
But he is also a screenwriter including The Adventures of Tin Tin ,
And the upcoming Ant Man for Marvel Studios .

Yes, there are general co-ordinates and probes are sent to these to collect data and send back to a ship like the Enterprise. This data gives the captain etc on that ship data of a nature which tells them whether this section of space has anything interesting and whether or not it would be too dangerous to venture in. With transwarp beaming, a person needs specific destination co-ordinates and if they are wrong, just even a little, they could end up in a ships water system or worse.

Khan would have had PRECISE co-ordinates. Scotty and prime Spock’s calculations were pretty damn good, considering, but Khan’s were more so.

It would be nice to see a 5-season Original Series followed by a 5-season Next Generation based on the new timeline (2017 onwards). A 2-season Star Trek web series, based on events after the destruction of Romulus in 2387 in the Prime Universe, should be created in 2017 and streamed by Netflix.