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3) I don't get why this movie was so hated. I definitely remember hating the next one (Clooney sucked, Mr. Freeze was wtf, the Batmobile and Batsuit were awful, etc...), but I quite like this one. This is my favorite Batmobile, I love The Riddler, and I love the introduction of Robin, even if the next film ruined him. It's a bit less dark than the first two, but I don't have a problem with that. I kinda like the humor in the darkness.

I don't think Forever's a good movie, definitely not a good Batman movie, but I definitely feel it gets way too much hate. It's not a Batman & Robin by any means, there's a good movie in there somewhere if they'd played up some elements and played down others.

They butcher Two-Face, big time, and yeah, WB steered the ship way too far to the kid-friendly direction after the giant parental backlash to Returns. Yeah, Returns is a little too sinister and freaky to market happy meals to the kiddies, and that's totally valid, but they just needed to get back a little to the '89 vibe, get Burton to back off a little with the goth stuff and keep it a little more accessible.

The shitty thing is, Schumacher's generally a pretty awesome director, too. I don't really blame him, he was just doing what he was told.

They probably should have left Robin out of it, but yeah, I totally get that they'd age him up if they were going to include him. About the only way you can do it.

Kilmer's actually really great in the role, though I'd disagree about your problem with the Wayne stuff. He plays it a little more like traditional book-Bruce than Keaton did, Keaton had this wacky weirdness going on, whereas Kilmer's more the obsessive brooding dude really playing up the douchey playboy for the public.

Carrey's pretty great as Nygma, it's more just the costume and the campy angle that detracts from it. The more subdued stuff with him is pretty spot-on.

Hell, even Nicole Kidman's pretty great in it, hard to live up to Basinger and Pfeiffer in the first two, but she doesn't suck or anything.

But yeah, it's mostly just the bright neon colors and shitty art design and stuff with that movie. Two-Face aside, it's overall pretty dark and introspective with the story, if they'd gone with more of a "Burton feel" it'd all be fine. Cool 90s soundtrack, too.

Overall I'd rather watch it than Rises, anyday. Both the Nolan sequels I have pretty major issues with, although obviously TDK is technically really well-made. Begins kills all though, they nailed almost everything in that, before Chris had total freedom and final cut etc.

Also, B&R's so fucking fun to watch, just for the Ahnuld stuff. Only saving grace there, although Clooney circa '97 would have potentially been a fucking killer Bats with a different angle/tone for the movie. Him and Affleck are, on paper, easily the closest guys to get the role so far, Keaton's just awesome in a different out-of-left-field way.

I don't know much about Two Face (I haven't seen Rises at all yet, either, but I figure he's a big part of it considering the end of TDK), but he really annoyed me in Forever. There's hardly any reason for him to be in the movie, other than someone for the Riddler to get violent and work with. They didn't go into his character at ALL, which made the build-up to the coin tossing ending anti-climatic and uninteresting.

and yeah, WB steered the ship way too far to the kid-friendly direction after the giant parental backlash to Returns. Yeah, Returns is a little too sinister and freaky to market happy meals to the kiddies, and that's totally valid, but they just needed to get back a little to the '89 vibe, get Burton to back off a little with the goth stuff and keep it a little more accessible.

I'm not so sure how I feel about that. I've watched those first three, and I honestly think I like all three equally. I like the darkness of the first two, but Forever is a lot of fun. You're totally right about how kid-friendly Forever was, and that definitely is playing into a bit of bias on my part. I remember when Returns came out and I hated it. I was 8 years old and Penguin freaked me out. I only watched it once and I really didn't like it. I watched the first one several times growing up, but I watched Forever (came out when I was 11) numerous times and it was absolutely my favorite. So I'm sure my love for it as a child factors in to the fact that I still like it today.

Kilmer's actually really great in the role, though I'd disagree about your problem with the Wayne stuff. He plays it a little more like traditional book-Bruce than Keaton did, Keaton had this wacky weirdness going on, whereas Kilmer's more the obsessive brooding dude really playing up the douchey playboy for the public.

Sounds like you'd know better than I about whose Wayne was truer to the comics, but I was just speaking on a level of which one I liked more - I liked Keaton's Wayne more because he was more interesting and a truly sympathetic character to me.

Carrey's pretty great as Nygma, it's more just the costume and the campy angle that detracts from it. The more subdued stuff with him is pretty spot-on.

Yeah, I didn't really mind the costume and campiness. I can enjoy campy every once in a while

Hell, even Nicole Kidman's pretty great in it, hard to live up to Basinger and Pfeiffer in the first two, but she doesn't suck or anything.

I agree with this entirely. Basinger and Pfeiffer kicked major amounts of ass in the first two. They were just stellar (especially Pfeiffer). Kidman did not live up to that, but I still appreciated Chase Meridian, and I thought she did a good job.

But yeah, it's mostly just the bright neon colors and shitty art design and stuff with that movie. Two-Face aside, it's overall pretty dark and introspective with the story, if they'd gone with more of a "Burton feel" it'd all be fine. Cool 90s soundtrack, too.

Okay, I can also agree that the design was too bright and shiny, but that's hardly a reason for people to hate on it so much. I really liked the story, and yeah the soundtrack was great.

Overall I'd rather watch it than Rises, anyday. Both the Nolan sequels I have pretty major issues with, although obviously TDK is technically really well-made. Begins kills all though, they nailed almost everything in that, before Chris had total freedom and final cut etc.

Have yet to see Rises... will come up soon. Gonna watch B&R tonight... maybe I'll get to Begins tomorrow.

Do you like the eighties?

Why would Harvey/Two-Face be in Rises, Llamas? He pretty clearly died in TDK.

I'm totally with you on Returns, it was the first one I saw in theaters as a little kid and it scared the everloving shit out of me, although weirdly I loved it. I was really excited to see Forever before it came out, and still loved that at that age despite recognizing the difference in "feel". It's a lot of fun, if you can get over the cynical "toy-ification" of it all, the WB mandate to go the total opposite of Returns. And aside from Two-Face, everyone's probably more "in character" than any other Batman movie.

Yeah, I get what you mean about Keaton and Kilmer. Kilmer plays it a little more straight and traditional, and I like his take on it a whole lot, but personally enjoy Keaton's just for the hell of it since it's so out-there.

As for the campy thing, yeah, I totally appreciate that in movies from time to time. Maybe not so much for Batman, but Nolan's relentlessly tedious "grimdark" thing pisses me off infinitely more.

And yup, Pfeiffer destroys as Selina. Burton's take on the character, like Penguin, is nothing like the books (in origin, anyway), and Hathaway's is way more accurate, but Pfeiffer's presence in that movie is insane. Both she and Keaton kill every scene they're in.

As for Rises, it'll all depend on what you like and don't like in a Batman movie. You seem more willing to just take it on face value, like-the-books-or-not than I am, so you might enjoy it. I'm fine with the changes to Bane, being Eastern-European or whatever instead of Latino, since he's still in-character, still basically the same guy. The "Robin" stuff doesn't bug me one bit. Bruce and fucking Alfred being so out of character, though, totally fucking does. Fuck that movie.

Fuck. It. Probably worse than Man of Steel, which pissed me off too. And I love all of Nolan's non-Batman movies, every single one.

And weirdly, I think Affleck's going to kill it. Especially with all of the backlash to the casting. Biggest guy to get the role so far (I guess maybe along with Kilmer?), and the the oldest. He'll have the look down better than anyone along with Bale. Guy's going to be fucking huge once they go all gym-rat on him, it'll be weird seeing him against Cavill, making the poor guy seem tiny. Can play convincingly smart, dangerously driven. My only concern is if he can bring "the crazy". If he can pull of obsessive and almost-as-nuts-as-the-bad-guys, I'm fine with the casting. It's just the fact he's a big name that's pissing people off, not anything of substance.

They're apparently going for a "40-something, weathered & stoic Batman who's already been doing this for 15 years and has already encountered Joker and Two-Face and Riddler etc a bunch of times". Which is exactly what we need. Don't do early-days origins Batman again, everyone's already seen it and it doesn't need to be covered again. Coming off the early-days newbie thug Bale, it'll be awesome seeing this experienced, grizzled, pissed-off dude who's already saved Gotham a dozen or so times, coming up against Superman and treating him as some unacceptable threat.

Then again, Snyder's directing, so it'll be ass. Just get Affleck to direct the fucking thing, WB. Pricks.

A lot of that push came from the studio very high up; they were interested in doing something original and not one more franchise film. That really came to a head at the studio  the major push to focus on the new mythology of Prometheus and dial the Aliens as far back as we could came down from the studio.

Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.  Bill Hicks

Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.  Bill Hicks