This was my first attempt with the new info provided in the last post. The wing is 4 parts, not very extensive but you have to start somewhere. I need some construction criticism, what changes need to be addressed and how do i go about them. Thanks.

Cody
That is a very nice looking fishing fly - for the wall the wing could be a bit fuller, but for a working fly that is just about perfect! Like anything new it is all about practise - I would slowly increase the size and complexity of the wings as you practise - you will find it gets easier the more you tie(and you will have a whole box of working flies by the time you arrive at "The Wall Fly"!)
Happy tying
speydoc

1) The tip should not be any further up the hook bend than the point of the barb, and is better if about the mid-point between the point and root of the barb. This will ballance the fly much better.

2) The tip should be 4 or 5 turns max and be made of fine oval tinsel.

3) The tag should start right up against the tip and end right above the hook point. To do this, start the tag above the hook point and wind it back to the tip then forward again to the starting point.

4) The tail needs to be longer. It should be tied in right above the hook point right where the tag ends and it should be 1/2 shank (or about a hook gap) long.

5) There should be five equal distant turns of tinsel that start and end on the bottom of the hook shank.

6) The body hackle should start at the 3rd turn of tinsel and then end with additional turns at the throat.

7) The wing needs to be both fuller (wider) and longer. The wing should end just inside the point of the tail and be about a hook gap in width.

This is enough for now to have you work on, I'll wait to provide more until after you post another fly. Don't want to scare you off or discourage you. This is really not too bad for not having had someone teach you how to tie them.

In the first place, CDG was/is talking about his wing, not the entire fly. At least that is how I read his post. Remember that a person must walk before he/she can run. CDG was having trouble setting a married wing and after your excellent tips in the other post, he tried them out with a narrow wing to get the feel of setting the wing. He said as much in the post that prompted your reply.

Frankly, I think he tied an excellent low water style fly, wing, tail and all!

There are no rules in tying that apply 100% of the time. If he was duplicating a classic or some other pattern in the style of ANOTHER TYER, then, "rules" would apply in order to end up with a reasonable duplicate of the original. Otherwise, there are no rules! Now, there may be a "norm" of a particular style but that is not rules. It is more like guidelines.

"...I'll wait to provide more until after you post another fly. Don't want to scare you off or discourage you. This is really not too bad for not having had someone teach you how to tie them." Your approach was exactly what could turn off a Tyer. I found it extremely condescending. Every one of your seven points were personal preference and nothing more.

I'd have absolutlely no qualms about putting your fly in my display box. Personally, I think you've done an admirable job with your wings, the color and material selection are wonderful, and you've taken great care with some of the details that many tyers (IMO) tend to overlook.

While I'm devoid of the 'Kelson Gene' and am certainly no critic, I think you've dressed a very nice fly. I also admire your 'moxy' in posting it at the risk of 'slings and arrows' from sometimes hyper-critical and opinionated fellow tyers.

Since others have rightly pointed out that your fly was a low-water one and since I provided info on standard dress in my previous reply, I am providing you with info on your fly from a low-water perspective.

I would change the following things from a low-water fly perspective:

1) shorten the tip to 4 or 5 turns of either extra fine oval or wire (what the full-dressed literature refers to as round tinsel) tinsel.

2) shorten the tag so that it is about the length of the hook point.

3) shorten the tail so that it is 1/2 the body length long, but leanve the tail veiling as is.

4) use a smaller size tinsel for ribing so that you can have 5 turns of tinsel.

5) start the hackle winding at the 3rd turn of tinsel and then make some additional wraps at the throat.

6) use a smaller hackle unless you were puposely trying to tie a pseudo spey.

While I certainly don't want to offend any 'purists' in our merry little conclave of tyers, nor do I wish to seem dismissive of their 'perspectives', please allow me to offer the following;

The most innovative and talented tyers the world has ever known (to include Pryce-Tannatt and George Kelson) were deemed innovative and talented tyers BECAUSE they thumbed their collective noses at 'conventional guidelines', narrow minded thinking, and the oft-pontificating opinions of others. In short, they DARED to be different and set THEIR own standards.

So, turns of oval tinsel, angle of wing, length of Jungle Cock, and the condescending babble of 'critics' be darned!

"Why NOT tie YOUR fly in the method or means that YOU choose to do so?!"

This thread is a little puzzling. I tie flies (trout flies) and the only thing that keeps me tying is an ability to be creative. Its what tying is all about for me. This means creating something new by any and all means of doing so. After reading flytyers critique of this most beautiful fly, I am puzzeled to say the least. ALL THE RULES?? The only place that I can see room for creativity is the substitution of materials. How dare I make that tail the lenght that I see fit, blah... Isn't there a differance between constructive criticism and a set of rules that that doesn't allow for any personal choice by the tyer.
Ronn and Igor, let me comment you for your reply's . If anyone were to lay down a set of rules for the flies that I tie, well.... lets not go there.
CDG, great job, keep up the good work and DON'T get stiffled by rules. Keep the creative juices flowing. -Yaf.

__________________
Don't mess with my muddler...
More than a handful.-Yaffle

Whether or not tradition is important depends on what the tier wants. If one chooses to tie in a manner faithful to tradition, that's the standard by which their flies should be judged. If, on the other hand, one chooses to innovate, that's fine too.

As far as the critique of CDG's flies go, he did, after all, ask for feedback.

When I give people feedback I generally start by saying that I'm going to try to critique their fly the same way I would one of my own. I say things like "I prefer..." , "You might try...", or "If you're trying to achieve classic proportions...". I always make sure to find some positive comments as well as suggesting improvements.

We're not all equally experienced or gifted as tiers, and, at the end of the day, we do this for our own pleasure.

It is perfectly reasonable to learn and follow established "rules" of proportion when tying classic married-wing salmon flies. They are a fairly standardized form of craft, well into their second century. Rules make it much easier to learn to tie flies of this artistic school; without them, one could try and err for a long time.
Which has nothing to do with the separate issue of whether classicly proportioned flies are the best of all possible salmon-steelhead flies.
It's the same with architecture: If you want to design buildings in the classical Greek style, you follow certain ratios that were worked out several thousand years ago. That has nothing to do with any issue of whether Greek classicism is the acme of architectural design or not.
To bring it up to date: what are the proper proportions for a tandem-hook fur leech? Five or ten years ago, the question couldn't have been asked. Now, the fly tying community is in the process of refining the strip leech design. In time, there will be a "rule" about this. For now, we're free to experiment, to make leeches as long as water snakes, if we please.

To me, a rule is a prescribed way to do something (or not to do something). No Parking! Cars will be towed at owner's expense. That's a rule.

"I would change the following things from a low-water fly perspective:

1) shorten the tip to 4 or 5 turns of either extra fine oval or wire (what the full-dressed literature refers to as round tinsel) tinsel.

2) shorten the tag so that it is about the length of the hook point.

3) shorten the tail so that it is 1/2 the body length long, but leanve the tail veiling as is.

4) use a smaller size tinsel for ribing so that you can have 5 turns of tinsel.

5) start the hackle winding at the 3rd turn of tinsel and then make some additional wraps at the throat.

6) use a smaller hackle unless you were puposely trying to tie a pseudo spey.

7) set the wing closer to the body.

8) make the jungle cock cheeks longer, about 1/3 the wing length, about 1/3 the wing length."

Those sure sound like set rules to me.

"5) start the hackle winding at the 3rd turn of tinsel and then make some additional wraps at the throat." That's a rule. I start at the rear of the body but as long as you are pleased, put a collar, beard or palmered hackle from the second or third rib, that's fine. That's a guideline.

"7) set the wing closer to the body." That's a rule. I like a high wing. Do what pleases your eye. That's a guideline.

"what are the proper proportions for a tandem-hook fur leech? Five or ten years ago, the question couldn't have been asked. Now, the fly tying community is in the process of refining the strip leech design. In time, there will be a "rule" about this. For now, we're free to experiment, to make leeches as long as water snakes, if we please." ???? Couldn't have been asked! ??? Fly tying community. Aren't we all part of that community? Then, we can march to our own drum. Proper proportions for the "leech"???? "In time, there will be a rule about this". So, when some official of the community dictates that the "proper" length is 3 1/16" and I feel like tying one 3 1/8", the fly Gestapo will come take me away?

If I like to dress my #18 Adams on a 3/0 hook, whose business is that other than mine? Is it wrong? No it isn't wrong. It won't likely put me in touch with any fish but that's my problem.

You can have accepted guidelines for the classics as the Tyers of the ages have tied their flies and were I to tie a classic Green Highlander IN THE CLASSIC form, I should adhere to some of the "balance" of the various old patterns. If I want to tie a free style Green Highlander, I can do whatever I want and it is right.

Traditionalists tend to get bent when other Tyers get creative and that's cool as long as they don't try to impose their bias to the other camp. There is a time and place for both and neither has higher status in my book.

Personally, I like the "classic" Atlantic Salmon Flies and appreciate the skills of the Tyers who tie them. I don't have any interest in tying them though!

There are Tyers out there that tie unbelievable free style married wing flies that only slightly resemble the classics but are heads & shoulders (pardon the pun) above the old patterns in my opinion. Some of these contemporary Tyers could tie circles around any of the Tyers of old that are held in such high regard by many today. That's just my opinion though and I am not going to insist that anyone else like what I do.

The bottom line here is that all of this discussion is about something that has very little importance in the real world. Some of us just take this tying stuff far too serious in my opinion. :eyecrazy:

Wayne, this didn't necessarily apply to you but was offered to the board with non confrontive intentions. Unless you don't agree with me..... just kidding!!! [8^)

If your fly catches fish, you have just passed the most important test or judge. If you are tying for looks- hey looks great to me.
Remember a single piece of yarn can out fish the best tied fly in the world.
cr