If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

The Muscle and Brawn Forum is dedicated to no nonsense muscle and strength building. If you need advice that works, you have come to the right place. This forum focuses on building strength and muscle using the basics. You will also find that the Muscle and Brawn community stresses encouragement and respect. Trolls and name calling are not allowed here. No matter what your personal goals are, you will be given effective advice that produces results.

Please consider registering. It takes 30 seconds, and will allow you to get the most out of the forum.

General Fitness & HealthDiscuss general fitness. conditioning and health topics.

Jeez JD, we're getting into an argument because you're just not reading what I'm writing.

We don't need to have an argument here, this isn't BB.com. You're completely arguing the wrong point, a point that I'm not even making. I haven't been dodgy, I've been clear and concise in my argument.

I really dislike this, because I've actually put some thought into my posts because I thought you might be a responsible member of the forum who actually reads and is open to some debate. However the result of that is this mess of a conversation.

If anyone is even interested in this topic any more, here is more personal (gasp!) data to illustrate my point:

The Height you entered is 5 feet, 11.75 inches. The Weight you entered is 139 pounds. Your Calculated BMI is: 19.0This was age 19 @ 4% BF. I was fitter than most US Marines, but BMI says I was "underweight."

The Height you entered is 5 feet, 11.75 inches. The Weight you entered is 175 pounds. Your Calculated BMI is: 23.9This was when I was most balanced (but not particularly strong) overall @ 8% BF. I never really pursued deadlifting or bench at this time. BMI says I'm high normal. I was just the average guy."

The Height you entered is 5 feet, 11.75 inches. The Weight you entered is 183 pounds. Your Calculated BMI is: 25.0Uh oh! Hardgainer finally gains a few pounds in the gym and all of a sudden BMI says I am "overweight."

The Height you entered is 5 feet, 11.75 inches. The Weight you entered is 194 pounds. Your Calculated BMI is: 26.5This was after I added 10 lbs of muscle and 130 lbs to my dead lift in 4 months @ 12-15% BF. Strongest I had ever been but sadly, BMI says I am even more overweight than before. Same BMI as that fat f*ck Phil Ricardo...but, since my BMI is the same, we must be in identical condition!

The Height you entered is 5 feet, 11.75 inches. The Weight you entered is 214 pounds. Your Calculated BMI is: 29.2 This one is hypothetical supposing I gained 15 lbs of muscle vs my personal best and now I'm almost as obese as Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime!"

To try and clarify this; the reason I gave Ricardo, Grimek and Schwarzenegger as examples is to show you a visual of what a muscular 26-30 actually looks like on a person in shape. And that is the key point I'm making, a muscular 26-30 is hard to achieve. A fat 26-30 is not hard to achieve. Going off the numbers you've posted I would posit that here:

I highly doubt your actual bodyfat was 15%. If you went on a diet and lost 5% of pure fat you would be a very lean 8-10% bodyfat and 184lbs. This would sit you at 25 BMI which is almost the same condition as Ricardo and that is where I draw issue. There is no chance in hell that you would be 8-10% bodyfat at 184lbs, admittedly matching one of the best drug-free bodybuilders currently alive, after admittedly only training a brief period.

So do you see? My point isn't that BMI is ok, my point is that to get a high BMI and still be muscular and in-shape you would need to be in the same type of condition and carry the same level of muscle mass as Ricardo or Grimek. That paints a huge question mark for me.

I think that's where we're getting mixed up. I don't agree with BMI as it stands, however I don't think we should go off in the other direction and use it to justify what is quite obviously just higher bodyfat levels.

I highly doubt your actual bodyfat was 15%. If you went on a diet and lost 5% of pure fat you would be a very lean 8-10% bodyfat and 184lbs. This would sit you at 25 BMI which is almost the same condition as Ricardo and that is where I draw issue. There is no chance in hell that you would be 8-10% bodyfat at 184lbs, admittedly matching one of the best drug-free bodybuilders currently alive, after admittedly only training a brief period.

I have pics...

And, to clarify, I was training for almost 15 years at that point and had always been much leaner than most. I had only been strength training (on a legitimate PL routine) for 4 months.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fazc

So do you see? My point isn't that BMI is ok, my point is that to get a high BMI and still be muscular and in-shape you would need to be in the same type of condition and carry the same level of muscle mass as Ricardo or Grimek. That paints a huge question mark for me.

I think that's where we're getting mixed up. I don't agree with BMI as it stands, however I don't think we should go off in the other direction and use it to justify what is quite obviously just higher bodyfat levels.

I'm glad you posted those pictures, the whole reason I took issue in this thread is because of the lack of realism over the internet. Steve knows this all too well from his time around the forums, you talk to guys about genetic limits and the mere mention of the word and people get riled up, immediately you get 10 guys jump all over it saying the limits are self-defeating and small. 9 times out of 10 these guys are basically over the limit because they're fat, plain and simple and nothing to do with them actually looking good. My comment about being in denial was directed to them.

I'm happy to be proved wrong in this case.

However just looking at your photos should give people a clear indication of what 170-190lbs looks like on a 6 foot frame in good condition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdmalm123

And, to clarify, I was training for almost 15 years at that point and had always been much leaner than most. I had only been strength training (on a legitimate PL routine) for 4 months.

Well that would also account for the misunderstanding. Who I thought I was talking to was someone who admittedly had only trained seriously for 4 months and thought they had reached the pinnacle of drug-free bodybuilding!

"In Singapore, the BMI cut-off figures were revised in 2005, motivated by studies showing that many Asian populations, including Singaporeans, have higher proportion of body fat and increased risk for cardiovascular diseases and diabetes mellitus, compared with Caucasians at the same BMI."