Can't imagine our world without them. And it certainly better for them.

Each has some interesting things to say about sex and marriage. In fact, you probably know some of the quotes without knowing their origin. Who knows?

Too bad each gets read too often by eyes too young to really appreciate them.

Oh well.

I disagree with your assesment. Instead of lauding these 'big three', I advocate studying Scripture and Patristics first for in them you will find a thorough understanding of the human condition far superior.

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

When I read of James' fantasies, I cannot help but think of a Chihuahua and a German Shepherd that I saw once. The Chihuahua was going to town on the Shepherd's leg, and the Shepherd had a most confused look on her face.

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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

If someone brings up their score in conversation, I normally seek to end the conversation.

Why does it bother you so much? Why do you believe it's nonsense?

When someone dismisses the MB as nonsense, I usually dismiss them as an idiot. Like the KAI, it is a useful tool, and I have seen what happens when it is ignored. But like any tool, it cannot be used exclusively and works best when it is part of a battery of tests along with personal observation. BTW - I scored an INTJ on the test administered by my company. Knowing this, and some of the other things that I learned during testing, really helped me with my job.

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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

If someone brings up their score in conversation, I normally seek to end the conversation.

Why does it bother you so much? Why do you believe it's nonsense?

When someone dismisses the MB as nonsense, I usually dismiss them as an idiot. Like the KAI, it is a useful tool, and I have seen what happens when it is ignored. But like any tool, it cannot be used exclusively and works best when it is part of a battery of tests along with personal observation. BTW - I scored an INTJ on the test administered by my company. Knowing this, and some of the other things that I learned during testing, really helped me with my job.

I was thinking the same things re: using the MBTI as a helpful tool. I was also aware of many companies using it which is why I was interested in why Nicholas dismisses it. I'm still waiting for his reply, and I'd also like to add a question: Nicholas, are you in Human Resources or a Psychologist?

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

If someone brings up their score in conversation, I normally seek to end the conversation.

Why does it bother you so much? Why do you believe it's nonsense?

When someone dismisses the MB as nonsense, I usually dismiss them as an idiot. Like the KAI, it is a useful tool, and I have seen what happens when it is ignored. But like any tool, it cannot be used exclusively and works best when it is part of a battery of tests along with personal observation. BTW - I scored an INTJ on the test administered by my company. Knowing this, and some of the other things that I learned during testing, really helped me with my job.

I was thinking the same things re: using the MBTI as a helpful tool. I was also aware of many companies using it which is why I was interested in why Nicholas dismisses it. I'm still waiting for his reply, and I'd also like to add a question: Nicholas, are you in Human Resources or a Psychologist?

No legitimate psychologist uses a MB. Companies like to do this sorta thing cause they get sold on it by those who hawk their wares cause it seems to boost morale a bit, much like some motivational speakers (revival tent preacher), "team building" BS, etc.

Of course every so many years they change the test so people can get the narcissistic joy of taking some tool that has zero help in diagnosing much of anything especially anything that might actually point toward psychological problems.

MBEnneagramStrength Finderetc.

Tell us about yourself in some straight forward fashion and will give you some jargon about how to talk more about yourself.

E/INT/FP.

People over score on the N/P according to the very documentation which started this whole mess would suggest exists in the world.

I disagree, but you described it as 'nonsense'. Your reply doesn't match your sentiments. And calling Human Resources 'cults' demonstrates a lack of understanding of what HR does. It's also just plain weird.

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

If someone brings up their score in conversation, I normally seek to end the conversation.

Why does it bother you so much? Why do you believe it's nonsense?

When someone dismisses the MB as nonsense, I usually dismiss them as an idiot. Like the KAI, it is a useful tool, and I have seen what happens when it is ignored. But like any tool, it cannot be used exclusively and works best when it is part of a battery of tests along with personal observation. BTW - I scored an INTJ on the test administered by my company. Knowing this, and some of the other things that I learned during testing, really helped me with my job.

I was thinking the same things re: using the MBTI as a helpful tool. I was also aware of many companies using it which is why I was interested in why Nicholas dismisses it. I'm still waiting for his reply, and I'd also like to add a question: Nicholas, are you in Human Resources or a Psychologist?

No legitimate psychologist uses a MB. Companies like to do this sorta thing cause they get sold on it by those who hawk their wares cause it seems to boost morale a bit, much like some motivational speakers (revival tent preacher), "team building" BS, etc.

Of course every so many years they change the test so people can get the narcissistic joy of taking some tool that has zero help in diagnosing much of anything especially anything that might actually point toward psychological problems.

MBEnneagramStrength Finderetc.

Tell us about yourself in some straight forward fashion and will give you some jargon about how to talk more about yourself.

E/INT/FP.

People over score on the N/P according to the very documentation which started this whole mess would suggest exists in the world.

Friend, what I really wish you would concentrate on is things you actually know about. I know Psychologists (both PhD.s and Psych.D.s) who administer the MB. I'm inpressed that you can find a Wiki article so quickly, but less impressed with your actual knowledge. For example, are you now the arbiter of what is and isn't a 'legitimate' Psychologist? Seems like you just like to hear yourself talk. I'm done with you.

« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 12:50:13 PM by GabrieltheCelt »

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

If someone brings up their score in conversation, I normally seek to end the conversation.

Why does it bother you so much? Why do you believe it's nonsense?

When someone dismisses the MB as nonsense, I usually dismiss them as an idiot. Like the KAI, it is a useful tool, and I have seen what happens when it is ignored. But like any tool, it cannot be used exclusively and works best when it is part of a battery of tests along with personal observation. BTW - I scored an INTJ on the test administered by my company. Knowing this, and some of the other things that I learned during testing, really helped me with my job.

I was thinking the same things re: using the MBTI as a helpful tool. I was also aware of many companies using it which is why I was interested in why Nicholas dismisses it. I'm still waiting for his reply, and I'd also like to add a question: Nicholas, are you in Human Resources or a Psychologist?

No legitimate psychologist uses a MB. Companies like to do this sorta thing cause they get sold on it by those who hawk their wares cause it seems to boost morale a bit, much like some motivational speakers (revival tent preacher), "team building" BS, etc.

Of course every so many years they change the test so people can get the narcissistic joy of taking some tool that has zero help in diagnosing much of anything especially anything that might actually point toward psychological problems.

MBEnneagramStrength Finderetc.

Tell us about yourself in some straight forward fashion and will give you some jargon about how to talk more about yourself.

E/INT/FP.

People over score on the N/P according to the very documentation which started this whole mess would suggest exists in the world.

Friend, what I really wish you would concentrate on is things you actually know about. I know Psychologists (both PhD.s and Psych.D.s) who administer the MB. I'm inpressed that you can find a Wiki article so quickly, but less impressed with your actual knowledge. For example, are you now the arbiter of what is and isn't a 'legitimate' Psychologist? Seems like you just like to hear yourself talk.

Yes I am.

If they are giving an MB, they are a quack, unless it is for a laugh, hopefully among friends and not at their clients expense.

I've honestly decided to no longer take people seriously when they "disprove" or discredit something. If anyone does a credible and reliable study out there, or uses a proven and credible method. There is inevitably going to be someone (or even a group) who disagrees for one reason or another and comes up with a conflicting study that supposedly discredits whatever they want to discredit.

If someone disagrees with something, inevitably they are going to find proof that what they disagree with is actually wrong.

One study may suggest that low, but regular levels of consumption of red wine can help prolong one's life. Another study would come forward "disproving" that idea, suggesting the absolute opposite.

There are some people out there who supposedly have found proof that the Earth is actually young, and that mankind & dinosaurs co-existed. There are others who have supposedly found proof that global warming doesn't actually exist, or that mankind isn't contributing to it.

I think it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Or its like many archeologists. If an archeologist wants to find Atlantis, and looks for it, he is inevitably going to "find" it. Like those looking for the Holy Grail or some other holy object. They look for it, and when they find something from that time period, they fit it into their narrative. Many will search for a female goddess in ancient Judaism and so will look at what they think are ancient Jewish synagogues or Hebrew places of worship and will move it's contents around to fit where they think they should go, and therefore create their own narrative, their own history.

I don't know anything about what you guys are talking about (that is, the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator), but I've simply come to the point where I just simply don't care about what dissenters have "proven" unless it is actually something that it is actually proven and it can be proven that most experts (whether they be scientists, historians, psychologists etc...) actually accept the dissenting point of view.

Instead of just linking to Wikipedia, I would suggest actually citing reliable and majority sources (that are peer-reviewed) on the subject. As well as showing study-based evidence that proves the majority of experts accept the point you are making.

More BS. Not only do major companies use it (administered by psycologists), but the military does, too. In fact, the psychologist that I dealt with spent years working with the Air Force using the MB as a part of the program. And believe me, it is not done to "boost morale". Some of these sessions were anything but cheerful rah rah sessions. But then again, you have pretty much proved to me that you know nothing about this particular subject, so I can see further discussion about this with you will provide little useful information.

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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

How can God expect us not to fornicate but allow us to be born with an insatiable sexual appetite?

For much of history, people got married around the time their sexual appetites got to that point. The biggest issue may be that people wait 10 years longer to marry than their bodies say they should. However, that's not an excuse for fornication. Appealing to circumstance is nothing less than an excuse, and neither is "everyone is doing it."

To the OP, I have and will continue to wait. I'm thankful to personally know many people who also make this obedience a priority.

We read of plenty of folks in the time of the Fathers marrying in their late 20s for the same reasons people wait to get married today, financial, political, and socio-cultural aspects of the Roman Empire. It is not surprising as we live in the New Rome that we deal with the parallel issues. In other words, we can't necessarily blame some kind of societal gap which conflicts with our biology, because in other societies we've had the same situation. Just because people are sexually driven at 15, doesn't necessarily imply these always do or even should get married. Some people get married young, some do not. Some people can wait until marriage to cool their sexual appetites, some can not. It is important for us to understand two things about this (a) overcoming our carnal appetites be they for food, wrath, or sex, can only happen in synergy with God and not by our own force of will and (b) when we inevitably fail at these ideals (which we all will do in some way or another) this is precisely why Confession has been instituted for

stay blessed,habte selassie

« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 02:43:21 PM by HabteSelassie »

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"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

OK, I admit I was broad in my comment about marriage age. I was mostly thinking of the ancient Jews (and probably others) who tended to get married in their younger teens. That may have been more culturally-specific than I realized.

But I think we all agree that the calling to a high standard of conduct remains, and fornication is never acceptable, regardless of the marriage age. Waiting until marriage to have sex is totally possible if it's a high enough priority in one's life. Millions and millions of people manage it.

OK, I admit I was broad in my comment about marriage age. I was mostly thinking of the ancient Jews (and probably others) who tended to get married in their younger teens. That may have been more culturally-specific than I realized.

But I think we all agree that the calling to a high standard of conduct remains, and fornication is never acceptable, regardless of the marriage age.

Many Christian cultures through out history and today have a period of "extended engagment" where folks essentially look the other way about sexual activity and if pregnancy results it is expected the young couple gets married. Divorce is a social institution as much as an individual one. We as a society or culture or social-support group accept and embrace divorce rather than reconciliation, we acquiesce to it rather then pushing and supporting reconciling. This is how promiscuity and fornication have become the normal sexuality of the modern world, because we don't enforce the societal relationships and expectations of marriage in the first place! Historically, sexual expression has always been a shade of gray, and marriage has always been an ideal, however it was one which more often was supported rather then scoffed or neglected. The entire family and indeed must support marriage for it to work. We have to think of divorce as almost akin to spiritual suicide and work from them. Its not about being over judgmental or harsh, rather the opposite, to be reconciling, embracing, supportive, empathetic to the cause of marriage. We have to support our marriages, encourage our marriages, love our married folks, not just shrug our shoulders and accept divorce as the new marriage. Before, kids could be allowed to have these extended engagements because society as a whole would hold them to the expectation of getting married rather today, we still allow kids to form the same relationships we always have for thousands of years, rather, we don't expect marriage any long

Above all else, we need to promote Sacramental Marriage. Lets be honest, why is marriage failing in America? Its not Sacramental and so is not blessed by God's Grace. Our Protestant and secular marriages are largely imaginary in the eyes of God, so what can we expect? We are trying to force ourselves into marriages which are not sanctified, and it is no wonder these fail time and time again. ALL marriage will inherently fail if solely by human efforts, this is why God sent us the Mystery of Holy Matrimony so that by His Grace He can keep us together when things get hard to bear. In the 1950s a large portion of marriages were at the least Lutheran and hence pseudo-Sacramental, but the proof is in the pudding. Look how many of these marriages have lasted 50-60 years? How many of our imaginary, non-Sacramental marriages since have lasted that duration? Its embarrassing really. We as Orthodox need to promote and encourage at every social level the concept and blessing of Sacramental Marriage, which can save our society and our fellow brothers and sisters from burning in lust. Marriage sanctified sexuality, it converts lust into love. Selfish seeking of pleasure becomes the desire to spiritually fulfill the needs of the other. Sex outside of this marriage has realistically devolved into masturbation with a partner

stay blessed,habte selassie

« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 03:20:00 PM by HabteSelassie »

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"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

I was listening to an Orthodox priest talking about how people in our faith did marry much younger way back when and that we need to provide people with community resources to maintain chastity as now the task largely falls on the individual. I asked for some Orthodox resources because our Catholic brethren seem to have a slew of resources - groups, forums, meetings, clubs etc to deal with chastity. Also I've heard how 'courting' is starting to make a comeback, where both families are involved, and the courtship takes place within a more communal atmosphere. It sounds great, part of the idea is that the family makes sure you're not passing yourself off as someone you're not. It's hard to do today because so many families are broken up, but I don't know, perhaps some Orthodox entrepreneur will start an internet courting service...

I was listening to an Orthodox priest talking about how people in our faith did marry much younger way back when and that we need to provide people with community resources to maintain chastity as now the task largely falls on the individual. I asked for some Orthodox resources because our Catholic brethren seem to have a slew of resources - groups, forums, meetings, clubs etc to deal with chastity.

Did he provide any? What are some of the Catholic resources you found?

This lightside religious stuff seems very confusing and burdensome. The dark side seems much more appealing right now. No more judgment or condemnation, no more guilt or impossible ethical code to follow. Just absolute freedom and indulgence in my passions--along with the ability to be accepting of everyone opposed to judging them or telling them how they ought to behave like religion does. I highly sympathize with Anakin Skywalker's fall to the darkside.