Reverend Calvin Woods interview

This is an interview with the Reverend Calvin Woods in
Birmingham, Alabama, December 28, 1988. The subject of this
interview is the Civil Rights movement and religion and the role
of Fred Shuttlesworth in Civil Rights in Birmingham.
ANDREW MANIS: Reverend Woods, if you could tell me basically
your background, the history of your involvement in Civil Rights,
how your interest in Civil Rights developed.
REVEREND WOODS: Well, I've always been interested in Civil
Rights and of course, my interest in the rights struggle
heightened to some degree after I was arrested for preaching
against segregation in the church that I pastor, East End Baptist
Church. I believe in about 1957 or 1958 and, of course, what
made it so bad and gave us a greater incentive because of the
fact that the Birmingham Police Department had persons planted in
my church who was reporting on the type of sermons that I was
preaching and they said that I was urging a boycott, telling
persons not to ride the buses on a segregated basis. I didn't
have any idea that I would get as totally involved but that i s
what I had been preaching, that people were people and they
should be able to sit down if they pay the money.
ANDREW MANIS: How old were you in 1958? You were a young
minister.
REVEREND WOODS: I was a young minister. Well, let's just say
that I was in my twenties during that time.
ANDREW MANIS: I'm interested in how you came to recognize or
believe that preaching about Civil Rights was a part of the
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Gospel?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, if you would check my record in high
school, the librarian showed me an article on myself that I had
forgotten about. The fact is that I was doing it when I really
wasn't aware in various is organizations in high school.
ANDREW MANIS: Tell me about that.
REVEREND WOODS: Well, according to the librarian, the article, I
was the chairman of a group that discussed current events. They
had pictures to verify that and as a young boy I was speaking out
against segregation and issues facing the entire world. I was
also concerned during that time about Roy Wilkins and persons
involved in NAACP. I had forgotten that I was speaking out. I
was well read in the newspapers and magazines. But really, when
Reverend Shuttlesworth organized the Alabama Christian Movement
for Human Rights, he called a cross section of leaders together
and organized the Alabama Christian Movement. I was not present
at the first meeting but after learning of the organization I
just began attending the meetings to see what it was all about
and became more interested in it that way.
ANDREW MANIS: Can you recall your first meeting with Fred
Shuttlesworth?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, it was about the third meeting that was
held after the organization [of the ACMHR], the pastor that I
followed at East End Baptist Church was a member of the original
organization when Dr. Shuttlesworth organized the Christian
movement. It was evident I think that I would follow him there.
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Of course, I didn't know that until later years when the history
was read. Of course I didn't know Reverend Shuttlesworth
personally but I just idolized him and admired him from the very
first night that I went to a meeting because he was speaking out
and saying a lot of things that should have been said, but a lot
of people wouldn't dare to say. It really touched me.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you remember any particular sermon or speech
that was made that had a lot of effect on you?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, he made a lot of them that had a special
effect on me and I don't know whether I can just pinpoint one in
those early days other than we are tired. A man has to bend his
back over in order for someone to ride on it. He would often say
"Come hell or high water, we're going on." He taught us that
segregation and discrimination was wrong. He was really totally
committed to it.
ANDREW MANIS: In what way, did a sense, •.• I guess what I am
trying to ask here is, this basic sense of the unfairness of
segregation which any black person would feel as the victim of
oppression and being convinced because of that to strike out
against the system. I see that as one thing but different from
that, I suppose, or maybe not in your perspective, that separate
from the sense of being victimized by the system and wanting to
do away with it, was there in addition to that, a sense that "by
God this system is unchristian, doesn't match up with the Gospel,
and more than that, that it is the responsibility of the black
minister not to put up with it any more.
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REVEREND WOODS: Of course.
ANDREW MANIS: When did that begin to develop for you?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, it began to develop for me, and Reverend
Shuttlesworth helped to heighten that to a great degree, when the
NAACP had been outlawed in the State of Alabama. It was very
unchristian to prevent minorities from having a voice to speak
out against injustices. I personally felt that as a minister of
the Gospel that I had been called by God and that I had to speak
out against that. This is what Reverend Shuttlesworth was
certainly all about. He called upon, especially the religious
leaders, to be that voice and to fill that void because the
powers that be were trying to cut it off and they couldn't do
that.
ANDREW MANIS: There were lots of, certainly among white
religious folks, maybe not so much now, but the white people who
were religious, white Baptists, white Methodists, tended to think
that the responsibility of a minister was solely to get people
saved, very individualistic. And so very often you would hear,
like the ministers who told Dr. King that he needed to slow down,
and in response to which he wrote "A Letter from Birmingham
Jail." Because there was a very strong sense among white
religious people that a minister's job is to preach the Gospel
and to get people converted and to get people ready for going to
heaven and all of that. But a minister's job is not to address
political or social issues. You obviously must have thought that
that white religious point of view was wrong. Why is it wrong?
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REVEREND WOODS: Let me say this. Not only did some white
brethren feel that way, but there were a significant number of
black ministers who also felt that way. I feel that they were
sincere about it.
ANDREW MANIS: Okay, let me ask it this way. Why did they feel
that way? Why did you and Shuttlesworth and others feel
differently?
REVEREND WOODS: They felt that way I feel because number one,
tradition; number two, for a significant number of them, fear;
and probably thirdly because they had not properly studied. They
had not been properly taught the total Gospel . Now for some of
us know that we were God-called and had that movement of the
Spirit within us, we were not just out on ourselves. It was
something that we were called upon to do by God. We were assured
of that and we were studying the Word of God . Always one of t he
motivating factors was that .
ANDREW MANIS: By the Word of God , you mean the Bible?
REVEREND WOODS: The Bible. The Word of God. We studied the
life of the prophets. We studied the life of Jesus Christ and we
were on target with what the Gospel was all about. The prophets
of old spoke out against social injustice. Jesus came to set the
captives free, to see to it that people had an abundant life,
more abundant life , see. He became bruised for those who needed
healing. So there were many things that are multi-faceted. We
talk about the multi-facetedness of the Gospel.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you remember a point in your study of the Bible
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where you may have been moving i n that d i rection already in terms
of responding to racism i n t he sys t em as g r owing up . But as you
read t he Bibl e , do you remember reading a parti cular passage
where i t became c l ear to you that bei ng a minister invol ved not
just getti ng peopl e saved but speaking to soci al i ssues l ike
segregat ion .
REVEREND WOODS: I don ' t want t o appear naive but I had reached
that concl usion befor e I accepted t he call. The Lord cal led
when I was a boy in elementary school si t ting at the
table . I heard His voice calling me. A t eacher can
t his. Her name was Helen Bryant then. She i s Helen
she is at Mt. Moriah Baptist Church in Prat t Ci ty.
called me one day . I heard somebody cal l i ng me.
ANDREW MANIS : Audibly with your ears?
library
witness
McFadden
The Lord
me
and
REVEREND WOODS: Audibl y ! Audibly l I thought it was her . Two
t i mes and I went t o her . I t didn ' t sound like her but I just,
you know,
ANDREW MANIS: Just called your name?
REVEREND WOODS : Yeah . She was a young lady. At that time she
sai d I must be crazy. So I sat down and started crying. The
library table was in the room. We didn't really have a l ibr ary .
The library table was in the corner of the room and we had to get
permissi on to go t o t he library at a certai n part of the day. I
was s i tting the r e . I didn't understand . The voice call ed me
again. And when i t called me that t ime I saw this huge t hing
like a pul pit up in the midst of the air and saw ange l s and they
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were singing and this Bible was laying on this huge pulpit in the
midst of the air. That was very strange. After that, I won't go
into all of the experiences of the Lord but the Lord called me
again and was on a mountain and was saying there on the mountain,
a chair was by Him, and I didn't think I should sit there in that
chair. And I didn't. He gave me the Bible and I took it and
started running. I ran in the house. I thought I was seeing a
vision really. I told my wife that Jesus had given me His Bible
and people were following me and when I got in the house they
just came all in the house, black people, white people, saying
"Preach." It was all type people and I knew then that my
ministry would not be involved with just black people but with
all people in accordance with the great commission to "preach the
Gospel to all people." So in my heart and mind, I didn't tell
that to anybody. I really didn't preach then. It was at a later
time and I had to get into it. So I knew that God was concerned
about all mankind and that that was the type of minister that I
knew I had to be. I was called to that. I wasn't thinking about
no Civil Rights or anything. But what I am saying, that is the
call of the Gospel, to be concerned about all people. I knew
that 1 s what I was going to be about back then. My ministry was
geared to that at that particular time but I didn't know the
direction that things were going to take.
ANDREW MANIS: Tell me a little bit more about your background in
terms of your preparation for the ministry and from that point
until you became pastor at East End Baptist Church.
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REVEREND WOODS: Well, number one, I was called into the ministry
by God. That's number one. Of course, I did attend the
Birmingham Baptist Bible College. In time I was called before
you know, I completed that and I received a Bachelor -- I
received a minister's course certificate and after two years and
then the third year I received a Bachelor of Theology Degree from
Miles College and attended different seminars and I received a
Master of Bible Study from Universal Bible Institute. I also
wrote a thesis on the Book of Acts and received a Doctorate
Degree. I also received a Doctor of Divinity Degree from Union
Baptist Seminary, small school, and my thesis that I wrote -­still
have a copy -- is "The Bible is a Revelation from God." Of
course, I attended Miles College later on. All of this didn't
take place. I wasn't just doing that to be a preacher. I was
doing that to enhance, you know, where I could do a better job in
the course of time. Those things just evolved through hard study
over a period of years and struggle. Those things finally did
come about and I did a little graduate work at the University of
Alabama in Birmingham.
ANDREW MANIS: In what ways would you say that Shuttlesworth had,
did he influence you in any significant way as a minister?
REVEREND WOODS: Yes, he did. You couldn't very well sit under
Dr. Shuttlesworth and not be inspired. I have never in my life,
if I have I don't know it, been around a man with the type of
dynamic courage that Dr. Shuttlesworth had. He wasn't seemingly
afraid of anything. If there was a need to go out and picket, go
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out and protest·, ride the buses, or do anything whether he felt
it should be done during the day or at night, he was the type of
leader who didn 't say "You all go and do t.his." He would lead
out in doing it and when he would get up and speak we would look
forward to that each Monday night. He would speak until he would
just catch on fire, just motivate you. He had a natural gift
from God plus he was a great writer. He just placed his words to
really motivate you. He would really motivate and I remember a
time when I got to a point that all fear left me. Now every man
has some type of fear. You go through stages. You get to
certain stages. God doesn't give you that anointing at one time.
You know the anointing is there because of the change that comes
and getting to a point where it looked like all fear left me. I
didn't have any fear with anything. I am certain that God had
already put Dr. Shuttlesworth to that level. He had to because
he didn 't fear anything. That was because of his leadership and
I feel that many of us got to that point. He had to train us and
instill courage within us.
ANDREW MANIS: Any time that you want to illustrate what you are
saying with stories of how he inspired you.
REVEREND WOODS: Here's a case in point . We were picketing
against Krystal's Hamburgers. There were just a few of us. We
had been trying to talk with the manager. So the manager had
been hiding. That morning a few of us went with Dr.
Shuttlesworth to Krystals. The young lady -- we asked for the
manager. She said, "The manager is not here." For some reason
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Dr. Shuttlesworth just lifted the counter -- the little thing
that blocked you from going behind the counter. He lifted it up
and went on back there to the door, opened the door and there the
manager was sitting there and he said "Hell, come on out of
here." He used those words. And I, "Just look at that man
look at him." He had that type courage and we being black; white
people were sitting around there, ordinary thing would have been
fearful. But the man didn't have any fear. He went in there and
told the man off. Of course, they did what he was asking. One
night we were marching downtown . It was kind of rough. It was
kind of tough. The police -- a lot of whites were down there.
It was dangerous . At that time Birmingham was in a
[unintelligible]. The police were not adequately and properly
blocking the traffic. Fred told us t o just go on and go on
across. They were supposed to be blocking. The policeman t old
him to have the people wait for the traffic light. He said
"Hell, we've been waiting long enough. If you all can't do
better than that, we're going on." He motioned for everybody to
go on and so we went right on. There are so many things that he
did that showed that he had an unusual amount of courage.
Another time we were marching during the daytime. They had told
us not to march. We were down near the Alabama Theater, not on
Third Avenue but on Eighteenth Street. They had told us not to
march and we marched anyway. A few got beat up down there.
Things like that didn't stop him. Whatever transpired, if they
would tell him they were going to arrest him and not to ride or
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· do this, if he decided to do it, he just went on and did it. He
didn't let anything whatsoever deter him.
ANDREW MANIS: Did you have much occasion to observe him, and
perhaps you didn't because you were a pastor, too, but did you
have much occasion to observe him as a pastor? What kind of
pastor do you think he was or is?
REVEREND WOODS: I didn't have too much occasion to observe him
as a pastor but knowing the man, he was a person who would have
to be in charge with a sense to take over, take off. He is going
to be in charge of basically whatever he is the head of and it
was commonly known that he was in charge at his church, Bethel
Baptist Church, and when he was called to Cincinnati, Ohio. He
developed some problems in his church. Dr. Edward Gardner and I
decided that we ought to go up -- I was working very closed with
Reverend Gardner and express our concern to him and to the
church to see if we could do or say anything because this was all
in the paper and the news. So Dr. Gardner and I went up and had
a special prayer meeting. We stayed over night and had a special
prayer meeting and expressed our concern. It was a situation
where some of the people didn't want to follow leadership and he
was a man who was going to lead in the way he felt God was
leading him. As a result of that I think that is how his present
church, True Life, came into being. He wasn't able to eventually
stay there, but he was a strong man. He was a man who wanted to
put all his cards on the table. He believed in having financial
reports even when he was leading the movement. He believed in
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having financial reports, if not monthly, quarterly. All the
board members had a copy of the finances that came in, what they
were spent for. He believed in keeping a tight rein on finances
in all matters of the church.
ANDREW MANIS: Generally speaking pastors, the black pastor does
have a good deal more authority in his church than say a white
pastor does, or at least it seems that way. Are there some
boundaries, as far as -- how do you know that a black pastor has
overstepped his bounds in claiming his authority in a church?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, it depends on the church and the type of
people. What may work here may not work there. It also can
depend on the level of preparation of the people with whom you
are working. You pastor the church but people are not as
prepared to deal with certain things, maybe that pastor would
have to assume more authority. But when you have more trained
people who are just as finesse as the pastor in certain areas,
they just would not allow certain things. Certain things he is
going to have to do. He can't really rely on them to do it and
look .
ANDREW MANIS: Is it the pastor's responsibility then to back off
and let the lay people handle • •
REVEREND WOODS: If the lay people are qualified to do, he should
thank God for that if they are qualified and will do it in
accordance with the way they should do.
ANDREW MANIS: What happens if the lay people think they are
qualified and the pastor thinks they are not and there is an
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honest difference of opinion about that. Who gets their way?
REVEREND WOODS: Well now, it depends on the type of support the
pastor has from the church and in some instances, the church will
side with the pastor and say they want the pastor to do this and
then in some instances the laity is so strong until the pastor
would have to acquiesce or either leave. So it's not the same in
every situation but in a case like that what the pastor needs to
do is to rely heavily on the scriptures. If he could show
according to the scriptures that he is in line then I think he
should stand on that but there would come times when you just
have to go along with certain things in order to reach a higher
objective. You just can't fallout about everything because it
won't go your way. You just have to suffer some things to keep
from relinquishing your principle. A lot of times people will
approach you because they do not understand, they do not see.
Sometimes continuous preaching and teaching will overcome it, but
you get into some situations where some people are not going to
change. They don't care what God says or anybody, so you have to
evaluate each situation.
ANDREW MANIS: I ask all these questions because there are people
who have written about Shuttlesworth and have talked about him as
a dictator, someone who couldn't work with people, that someone
was a publicity hound, trying to get the limelight for himself,
and there were people in the black community in Birmingham who
felt this way. How do you respond to that?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, I feel that he felt that it was in the
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best interest of the movement and what he was doing for him to
receive as much publicity as he could because he represented the
struggle and that is one reason why he accepted a lot of
publicity and he is a person who is going to be in charge of
whatever he is leading. He is going to be in charge of that.
What he feels is right, he's going to change and I've seen -- I
haven't seen him change very few times regardless of who went
against that he felt he was right and he stood for that and I
think that reflected the type of commitment that he had for what
he believed in.
ANDREW MANIS: Were there any occasions that you observed what
you just talked about and you thought that was a mistake and you
felt that he was to be faulted at that point?
REVEREND WOODS; I can't recall any at this time. There may have
been some times when I may have. But right at this particular
point I can't think of any because he was in charge and there
were a number of things probably that he did that some people
thought it was not time to do it, but he did it and he went
along. He was in charge and he made that known to everybody.
That was no secret. He would line up and ask those to follow him
who wanted to move forward. He didn't let anybody deter him.
ANDREW MANIS: How well do you figure you know him? Particularly
back in those days, did you have opportunity to spend a good deal
of time with him?
REVEREND WOODS: I think I knew him very well. I didn't spend a
whole lot of unnecessary time but we grew up in the movement. I
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matured in it and I think I knew him very well. He was a man who
was committed to what he was doing. He wanted it to be crystal
clear that he was the man in charge. As long as you recognized
that it made him happy.
ANDREW MANIS: Let me ask you this. In a large biography of Dr.
King, one author has talked about Reverend Shuttlesworth a good
bit. As his source he uses an interview with Reverend John
Porter. Now I ask you this not knowing what your relationship
with Reverend Porter is. So with all that in mind, and I talked
with Reverend Porter and he has given me a similar kind of story,
but Porter says that Fred was a dictator, that he just couldn't
work with people. He talks about an occasion in which Reverend
Shuttlesworth said to him "Porter, this is my movement. You get
in line or you get out."
REVEREND WOODS: I was in the meeting when he told him that.
ANDREW MANIS: Can you tell me more about that?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, I don't know the specifics, but I know it
was a central committee meeting as I recall. The central
committee meeting was composed of not just members of the Alabama
Christian Movement Board, but Dr. King came to town a cross
section of citizens were selected. There were some things that
Dr. Porter didn't totally agree with procedure-wise and he stated
that and he had some words with Dr. Shuttlesworth and he told him
that and Dr. Porter told him he could not work with a dictator.
So Dr. Porter told him exactly -- that did happen.
ANDREW MANIS: If you were in the meeting then you must have had
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some feelings about what was going on in this exchange. Who was
right in that disagreement in your opinion?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, I think that there could have been a
little more understanding about it. I hated to see Dr. Porter
leave the meeting because he felt that he should have some voice.
He wasn't trying to lead, you know, but he resented anybody
trying to keep him from voicing his opinion and he does want it
considered. The overall objective of Dr. Shuttlesworth was not
wrong but I do feel that it should have stopped a little short.
As I previously stated, he wanted everybody to know that he was
in charge. Dr . Porter had probably gotten to a level where he
just wanted a little more recognition and wanted his opinions
considered more than they were being considered.
ANDREW MANIS: Did you agree at that point with Porter that
Shuttlesworth was being a dictator?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, at that particular point, I didn't totally
agree that he was being a dictator but he was being dictatorial.
ANDREW MANIS: Was there ever a time when you felt he was being
dictatorial to you?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, yes, there was a time when he ordered me
out of the march. I had been leading the march against police
brutality. I was selected as chairman of that committee and
working very strenuously. I had some words with Georgia Price
who was very close to Fred and high in the movement. She told
him some things about me that were not true. She and I had some
words. I've always been kind of bullheaded, too. I would
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acquiesce to some things she was saying because I didn't go along
with them. So she called him or something and he became enraged
with me and I thought we were doing fine. We were getting ready
to march and came in town. He cursed me and told me to get out
of the march, that he was going to run this movement and to get
out. I said, "Fred, what are you talking about?" He said, "You
know what you told Georgia." I still didn't want to get out of
the march and at that time Dr. Nixon, Dentist, who died a few
days ago, was right up front. He said "Just get out of the
march!" It embarrassed me. I didn't know what to do. I didn't
understand and so I just kind of stayed back. I didnlt get out
of the march but I didnlt march on the front lines. Later I
think we went up to City Hall or somewhere and when we came back
I still didn't leave. I stayed down at the motel. Gaston had a
restaurant. So I guess his conscience was working on him. I was
standing around there. He said, "Woods, I I m sorry for the way I
spoke to you. A man can speak a little too quick sometime, OK?"
So I asked him why did he talk to me like that. He said, "well,
1111 discuss it with you some time." It was a good while before
I found out she was mad at me. That really struck me during that
particular time but we eventually got lined up. She got angry
about something and she just -- I don't know what all she said to
him. But she turned him. Because we were moving along very
good. I was keeping the protest moving on a daily basis, but I
wouldn't let her run it. But he did apologize at that particular
time, so that was about the only time that I had a run-in with
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him and he apologized for that. And, of course, after that we
got back together and I didn't let that stop me from working in
the movement.
ANDREW MANIS: Well, there were lots of people then who talked
about Shuttlesworth -- well, maybe not lots -- but from the
descriptions here, it sounds like you have a pretty healthy ego
in Fred Shuttlesworth and the sense that -- did you ever have the
sense that his desire to be at the top of the movement was an end
in itself for him?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, I didn't want to believe that but I do
know that he was in charge and he made that crystal clear, on
numerous occasions. I was really concerned about achieving the
goals that we were trying to achieve.
ANDREW MANIS: Well, let me just ask you to compare Reverend
Shuttlesworth with Dr. King. Because you would think if there
were somebody who had a vested interest in claiming to be the
leader, it would have been King. Do you think that Fred felt
overshadowed by King, was jealous of King in any way?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, I don't know, but Dr. Shuttlesworth was
leading this movement in Birmingham before Dr. King came and he
had some qualities that Dr. King did not have. The news media
described Dr. Shuttlesworth a hard man for a hard town. So you
would certainly have to know some of his background to know what
made him the way he was, the type of situation he was in, so he
had to be hard in order to deal with the situation. Dr. King had
some qualities that he did not have -- more finesse with his
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words, kindness, while Dr. Shuttlesworth used words to drive.
There. were differences when Dr. King came. Up to that point I
had labored for a long time in the movement but I had never been
put on the board.
ANDREW MANIS: Alabama Christian Movement?
REVEREND WOODS: Alabama Christian Movement Board. I would have
charge of meetings and then placed over the guards with Mr.
Walker and stay out some time all night and guard houses, try to
get things together like that that would overflow. Others, some
of us would take charge of the meetings so they were having some
of the board meetings and I wouldn't be there. Dr. King asked me
why didn't I ever be at the board meetings. I said, "I'm not on
the board." So one night he called me and called Reverend
Shuttlesworth. He said, "Fred, I want to ask you something. Why
isn't Calvin on the board?" He said, "We ll, he'll eventually get
on it." He said, "Now, you don't have a man working any harder
than this man. I'm ashamed of you, Fred. I'm ashamed of you.
I'm ashamed of you."
ANDREW MANIS: He said it three times?
REVEREND WOODS: I don't know how many times. "Fred, do what you
know what you're supposed to do." That night, you know, Fred
announced me on the board. So that's how I got on the board. I
had been working committees and things like that. So that's how
I got on Alabama Christian Movement Human Rights Board.
ANDREW MANIS: Did you ever see those roles reverse?
REVEREND WOODS: What do you mean?
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ANDREW MANIS: Where Shuttlesworth lectured King and King backed
off?
REVEREND WOODS: Yes.
ANDREW MANIS: I know there was one big one at the end of a
demonstration in 1963? Other than that, can you think of any
other one?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, I do know basically what Fred said went.
If he said we're going to march, that was just it. He was in
charge of that.
ANDREW MANIS: Let's get to 1963. Again I want to remind you, I
want you to just tell me of your own participation in the big
demonstrations in 1963. And wherever as you recall and as you
tell the story, wherever Shuttlesworth and you were together in
meetings or n situations where you can tell me what Shuttlesworth
was doing. The reason I ask this is because, as I say, most
people (interrupts tape)
REVEREND WOODS: The Alabama Christian Movement was the
organization that extended the invitation during 1963 to Dr. King
to come in and to give some support. It was the host
organization. It had been leading demonstrations for a number of
years, riding the buses and getting various other places
integrated, getting jobs, dealing with situations where persons
lost jobs, police brutality, school situations, it was the
Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. When Dr. King came
people who were in the Christian Movement who really gave the up
front support, it was the soldiers of the Alabama Christian
20
Movement that really got out on the forefront in the movement
certainly in 1963 and because such an organization was here in
Birmingham, I think that is the main reason why the
demonstrations of 1963 were successful -- because of the
expertise of Dr. Shuttlesworth and those who were already working
with him here in the City of Birmingham. Otherwise, Dr. King
could not have come in and mounted such a program as was mounted.
ANDREW MANIS: Can you give me some examples of ways in which if
Shuttlesworth hadn't been around during the 1963 demonstrations,
some examples of Shuttlesworth's input that contributed to the
success of the demonstrations, so that if Shuttlesworth hadn't
been there they might not have been successful. Can you give me
some example s?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, a number of times marches took place. I
don't know whether I can be specific, that when they would have
been changed, Reverend Shuttlesworth said, "Go on with the march,
we're not going to put them off." A number of times he said
"We're going to march with Martin or without Martin." There were
times that he specifically stated that. During one particular
march I know that some injunctions had been issued and there was
strong sentiment as to whether we should march or not and I think
that it was Fred and some of the rest of us who stood firm on
that issue and I think they called on Dr. King to go along with
it even after some injunctions had been issued.
ANDREW MANIS: Go ahead and from a personal point of view, give
me sort of a narration of your own involvement in the 1963
21
· demonstrations, to what degree, and in what ways, with some
incidents that you might recall about your participation in those
demonstrations.
REVEREND WOODS: Well, 1111 try to see if I can think of some
specific -- I know on one occasion I was arrested along with some
other persons for sitting at the lunch counter downtown. We had
received a lot of our courage before 1963 as I previously stated.
I was sitting at the lunch counter and a group of white men was
coming up seemingly to attack us. One of them spit on me. It
looked like a large crowd was coming. There was a white man. I
could see his face. He took on -- challenged that entire group.
He faced us at that particular time. Also, after the Gaston
Motel was bombed, on one occasion we went down and I was beaten
by the police and had to go to the doctor. After things quieted
down a number of us were quieting the crowd down. After we got
most of the people to leave we were attacked by the police -- on
this shoulder I was hit with a butt of a rifle. I was knocked
down. There were a lot of things. I can think of things about
other folks more than I can about myself. I was in most of it
day and night through the entirety of the 1963 demonstrations.
ANDREW MANIS: Give me a typical day.
REVEREND WOODS: A typical day began in the morning. We would go
down to the park and many children would come . .
ANDREW MANIS: Where would you meet up with your companions?
REVEREND WOODS: At the A. G. Gaston Motel. That is where we
would meet. Reverend Shuttlesworth and all of us would meet down
22
· there. Basically, Dr. Shuttlesworth -- meeting in Dr. King's
room. Then there was Dr. Abernathy and sometimes we would get a
chance to go in the room. Also, we had an office, the building
is torn down now, in the Smith Building right across from the
park on the seventh floor. That is where the office was. He
would always open it basically to talk and kind of get together.
There was a room where we could get up and shave and do all like
that. That's where some of the heavy decisions would be made.
Then they would get together and decide. I wasn't in on all of
the decisions. And, of course, we would go over to the Sixteenth
Street Baptist Church. We got to a point where a lot of children
were participating, a lot of students. We would have nonviolent
workshops. The students would be instructed in the art of
nonviolence and telling them how to conduct themselve s , telling
the adults if they were going to participate they would be
encouraged not to carry any weapons or anything of that nature
and not to hit back if they are struck or anything of that nature
and from that point the targets that would be picketed or the
route that the demonstration would take would be carried out
during those workshops and sessions of singing and praying and
preaching to inspire the people to move forward. I can remember
that. As you know, there were thousands involved. I do recall
one night that we had a demonstration that some of us thought
should not have taken place. One night we left the St. James
Baptist Church that is torn down in Smithfield. Dr.
Shuttlesworth was leading that. We went out to Liberty
23
Supermarket. That was in the downtown area during that
particular time. We had two or three people get shot down there
that night. We kind of felt we had received some words that we
ought not to make that march. We had a detective come by. His
name was Detective Jones. He had instructed Reverend Gardner and
some others that there may be some trouble and not to go. Some
of us didn't want to go along with it. That was an instance of
somebody in charge. Two or three people got shot. That could
have happened on any other night but we were there when that
particular incident took place. A man was in his car. The march
was going on Liberty's lot. I don't know, all at once I heard
the motor raising up and I heard the shot. So we were around a
lot of things that took place
ANDREW MANIS: Let me ask you, since you were in Birmingham
during the, you were already here when the Alabama Christian
Movement was founded?
REVEREND WOODS: I've been here all my life.
ANDREW MANIS: That's what I thought. I am just kind of going to
give you some particular events and ask you to respond in a sense
of any observations that you had about Shuttlesworth relative to
those events. Why don't we just start with the Alabama Christian
Movement. Any incident stand out in your mind about the founding
of the Alabama Christian Movement and Shuttlesworth's
participation in it?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, what stands out after the early
organization of it, Shuttlesworth immediately instituted a
24
program of riding the buses on an integrated basis. There were
several leading pastors here who tried to nullify it and told him
not to do it. You know, that's when the movement really got some
publicity . Some people rode successfully and some were arrested
for riding. That served to help establish his leadership here in
Birmingham. It came out in the News.
ANDREW MANIS: Let me ask you a question . Let me give you some
categories. You think in terms of the black ministers in the
Birmingham area say from 1956 to 1963. Three categories -- those
who were active movement people; those who were for the movement
but didn't participate; and in the third category, those black
ministers who felt like the movement was detrimental. What
percentage of the black ministers in your mind fit in each of
those categories.
REVEREND WOODS: Let's begin with the latter. I would say that
eight percent thought it was detrimental.
ANDREW MANIS: Eight?
REVEREND WOODS: Yes.
ANDREW MANIS: Why do you say a number like eight?
REVEREND WOODS: There were very few. There was a large r
percentage that was f o r the movement that did not participa te.
I'm talking about -- you say from 1956 to 1963 -- I honestly
believe it was not over eight percent , if there were that many,
who thought it was detrimental. The greater percentage that did
not participa t e but was for the movement , wanted the movement t o
proceed forward, wanted it t o certainly go ahead and probably,
25
let me see what percentage of the ministers in Birmi ngham -- that
was the largest percentage of mi nisters. We say probably about
65 percent of them wanted i t to go on and didn ' t really get out
on the front l ine. But many of t hem supported it with their
moneys and through the years many of them had begun to speak out
in certain ways because many parishioners had become involved and
many gains had taken place. The other percentage carne out in a
vocal manner in support of the movement.
ANDREW MANIS: So you would say between 20 and 30 percent of the
ministers were actively invol ved?
REVEREND WOODS: Actively involved. Not everyone of them would
get out in every demonstration but they were actively involved.
ANDREW MANIS: So you wouldn ' t disagree with the estimate Wyatt
Walker made some time ago of 20 percent.
REVEREND WOODS : No, I wouldn't disagree.
ANDREW MANIS: You'd say that was on the low end of the scale but
you ' d say from 20 to 27 percent?
REVEREND WOOD : Yes I would -- 20 to 27 percent . That ' s my gut
fee ling.
ANDREW MANIS: I just wanted to get your perception there.
Okay. In addition you can add to this any observations of
comments that you heard about Shuttlesworth from the black
community when these events took place . Perhaps things you may
have heard the people in your church say about Shuttlesworth when
these things were going on . That would be helpful. What were
the people in your chur ch thinking about Shuttlesworth around
26
1956 in the founding of the movement or in late 1956 when
Shuttlesworth's home was bombed and he survived. What
observations do you have by Shuttlesworth or about Shuttlesworth
around the bombing of his home?
REVEREND WOODS: The majority of the members in the church that I
pastor were very appreciative of the work that he was doing. The
majority of them -- there were just a few as there were probably
in many of the churches, that were there to try to cause problems
or those ministers who were supportive. But the majority of our
members were very appreciative. They supported me in my
participation with him. So there were some persons, I never
heard of many in the congregation I pastor, there were words from
some that he was crazy, that he was a fool, foolhardy, and that's
just a part of it.
ANDREW MANIS: It wouldn't be necessarily true that someone who
said that was saying something negative?
REVEREND WOODS: It wasn't negative. It was a reflection of the
type of courage they thought he had, how he would tackle a strong
problem.
ANDREW MANIS: I wouldn't think that they necessarily, just
knowing how people say, on occasion, "he's crazy." They don't
literally mean "insane."
REVEREND WOODS: No, they don't and they castigated all of us who
were following him with that same thing.
ANDREW MANIS: The freedom rides? Your participation in that and
Shuttlesworth's participation in that?
27
REVEREND WOODS: Dr. Shuttlesworth participated directly in the
freedom rides. I did not r ide a bus from out of town or anything
like that with the freedom rides.
ANDREW MANIS: Remember hearing him talk about those or describe
them? Did you observe anything about those relative to that?
REVEREND WOODS: No, I didn't observe the freedom rides but I
heard about what transpired. Some of them were beaten at the
Trailway Bus Station downtown. I just happened t o be tied up in
church that Sunday evening when that transpired. Otherwise I
probably would have been right down there. I tried not to miss
anything during that time . I felt like it was against my
r eligion not to be a part of -- but I did have a church to pastor
on Sundays and Sunday evenings. I was involved with that for the
most part.
ANDREW MANIS : Let me skip along and ask you to comment on, in
your opinion, and according to your observations over listening
to people in the black community, how did they feel about
Shuttlesworth generally? You alluded to this earlier but was he
the undisputed leader of Birmingham blacks during those years or
was that something that he desired to be said but really wasn't
true.
REVEREND WOODS: He was the undisputed leader. There were some
who didn 't want him to be, but his work acclaimed that title for
him and t he support that he had . He had a strong, boisterous
group behind him. He had a group that believed in action. He
was the undisputed leader.
28
· ANDREW MANIS: What were your observations concerning his
relationship with J. L. Ware?
REVEREND WOODS: His relationship with Dr. Ware grew. To begin
with Dr. Ware did not give his wholehearted support. This was
because of the background of Dr. Ware who had been the undisputed
leader in Birmingham for a number of years. Of course, as time
moved on Dr. Ware softened and threw his support behind the
movement. As I recall at least two times Dr. Ware joined in the
marches. As I recall the movement had a meeting at Dr. Ware's
church.
ANDREW MANIS: Reverend Shuttlesworth mentions that when he
decided to begin the Alabama Christian Movement and call the mass
meeting that another minister came to him and said that the Lord
told him to call the meeting off. Do you know who that was?
REVEREND WOODS : I assume it was Dr. Ware.
ANDREW MANIS: But you don't know that for sure?
REVEREND WOODS: It was Dr. Ware.
ANDREW MANIS: I guess what I'd like for you to do is give me the
two or three most memorable experiences that invo lved Reverend
Shuttlesworth that you can recall.
REVEREND WOODS: Well, one popped in my mind that I had
forgotten. One night we were up to Attorney Shores's house. His
home had been bombed. The explosion was heard throughout the
city and word got out where it was. We went up to see what type
of assistance we could be and Dr. Shuttlesworth was there. I was
there. Other persons. Before we left the place was covered with
29
policemen. The Lord just took care of us that night because they
started shooting. Fred and I were laying down behind a car. The
bullets were just whizzing. Just shooting. I don't know whether
they were trying to hit anybody. Probably shooting up. That was
really an exciting night. We were trapped there late.
ANDREW MANIS: I'm not sure I understand why there was a big
crowd.
REVEREND WOODS: Yeah, so many people had gathered. They were
trying to disperse the crowd. On that same night a black was
killed and we went to the funeral home. It was at Poole's. The
fellow resembled Shuttlesworth a great deal and Fred felt like
somebody was out to get him. But I can't say that was true.
ANDREW MANIS: Was that the infamous incident involving Judge
Aaron?
REVEREND WOODS: No, that was not the same one.
ANDREW MANIS: Was that a similar case in which the perpetrators
of that crime thought perhaps they were -- it seems like I recall
they left Judge Aaron with the message that "this is what's going
to happen to Shuttlesworth." Do you have any recollection?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, I don't know. This is what he actually
felt according to what he said that they probably thought it was
him. Now whether this person was involved in an act of violence
or throwing rocks or what, we can't say, because we didn't
witness it.
ANDREW MANIS: The person who was shot?
REVEREND WOODS: Yeah, who was shot. We didn't witness it so we
30
just came out the next day -- black male was killed. Kind of
resembled him. Another time I remember was when Fred was shot
down by a fire hose at Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. It
knocked him down those steps that go down to the basement there.
ANDREW MANIS: What happened after that?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, what happened after that is he had to go
to the hospital.
ANDREW MANIS: Near the end of the demonstrations?
REVEREND WOODS: Near the end of the demonstrations.
ANDREW MANIS: Okay, as we finish up here I would like for you to
tell me as much as you want to tell about your own arrest for
preaching in 1958. You ought to have some vivid memories about
that.
REVEREND WOODS: Well, I was working for Molton, Allen and
Williams at that time as a janitor. I was arrested at the
building where I was working a t Molton, Allen and Williams. I
was employed by them at Telephone Company Building -- used to be
the Phoenix Building. I didn't know why I was being arrested.
ANDREW MANIS: Was this the day after, like on a Monday, after
you preached?
REVEREND WOODS: Oh, I had been preaching that for a long time.
I don't know how many times. I had been telling people that
segregation was wrong. I didn't know any specific time . Of
course, the law had been passed by efforts in Montgomery, I
believe, that segregation was unconstitutional. They were trying
to get it passed or something like that and I instructed my
31
parishioners you should be entitled to sit wherever there is an
available seat and don't get up and give your seat to anybody
like that. I wasn't hiding that. That is just the way that I
felt. And they arrested me. I didn't know why they arrested me.
They carried me to jail. It wasn't until later on in the day
when they interrogated me that they told me why they were
arresting me -- they said for urging a boycott of a legal
business and the buses in the city. I was sentenced to six
months of hard labor and fined $500.00. The case was appealed to
the Alabama Circuit Court of Appeals which threw it out. They
stated that the law under which they arrested me had been
repealed and that I was wrongfully arrested for that.
ANDREW MANIS: Did you receive any damages for that?
REVEREND WOODS: No, I didn't receive any damages. Alabama
Christian Movement for Human Rights was handling my case. So
they did not .
ANDREW MANIS: Was Orzell Billingsley your lawyer?
REVEREND WOODS: No, Attorney Oscar Adams, Sr., who is in the
State Supreme Court now, was my attorney. We went down together.
ANDREW MANIS: Anything about your experience -- was that your
first time in jail?
REVEREND WOODS: Yeah, that was the first time I had been to
jail?
ANDREW MANIS: what was that like?
REVEREND WOODS: It was really something. They came upon me. I
was at work and I didn't know why I was being arrested -- being
32
treated like that and being handcuffed. They were too tight and
they were squeezing me and I didn't hardly know it was real. The
one gratifying thing about it, I had some little girls. One
named Linda. They were little bitty girls. That morning she
woke up and came in the kitchen and was crying. Her mother asked
her what was wrong, why was she crying. "Well, I saw the police
hurt daddy." Little bitty girl. I guess she couldn't have been
over six or seven years old. Little bitty girl. We were
laughing about that. Paying too much attention to a little bitty
kid. I recall I was in the patty wagon. Went uptown. We didn't
go the regular way. I was trying to holler out the back to tell
people my name so they could tell my wife or somebody I was being
arrested. They just carried me. They didn't go and tell the
people in the office or anything. Just carried me on off to
jail.
ANDREW MANIS: They took you to jail and some time later .•
REVEREND WOODS: Some time later that late evening, Reverend
Shuttlesworth saw to it word had gotten to him in some kind of
way and they got me out on bond and transported me from Southside
up to the county late that evening and they got me out.
ANDREW MANIS: Just a couple more questions. Here is a question
I didn't intend to ask but I'll ask it anyway. After the 1963
demonstrations when, for example, around 1967, the big issue then
was police brutality and still trying to get blacks hired on the
police force at that time about the time of the Liberty
Supermarket incident you mentioned earlier. There seemed to be
33
some sort of rivalry between Joseph Lowery and Reverend
Shuttlesworth in terms of the two organizations? Can you comment
on that?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, I don't know of any rivalry between SCLC
and Alabama Christian Movement. However, I do know that the
Alabama Christian Movement pulled out of SCLC and ceased to be an
affiliate to the point that SCLC chartered the local
organizations here?
ANDREW MANIS: When was that?
REVEREND WOODS: It was probably the latter sixties or early
seventies.
ANDREW MANIS: Was it after Shuttlesworth resigned the
presidency?
REVEREND WOODS: Yes, it was after and according to what I was
told, it was concerning money, funds. There were several
thousand dollars o f bond money that was put up during the sixties
and the Alabama Christian Movement had charge of that money.
SCLC wanted to get the money released and there was a question
that certain people had to sign to get the money released and it
wasn't done and I understand after many years there was an
agreement and they signed. Alabama Christian Movement held part
of it and they turned part of it over to SCLC. I understand that
was what was done.
ANDREW MANIS: One last question. What do you think were
Reverend Shuttlesworth's greatest strengths and his weaknesses
and why do you think his role should be remembered?
34
REVEREND WOODS: Well, first of all, I feel that Reverend
Shuttlesworth was a God-sent leader because he was on the scene
at crucial times and what he did for the good of this city and
the good of humanity as a whole, I think his strength was his
courage and his commitment to get a job done and if there were
any weaknesses, I think they may have been in the area of
probably not taking a little more time to at least listen to the
suggestions of others at certain points. But I did find out that
whenever you got him on a one-to-one basis, he was much
different, you could talk to him better. So that was my
knowledge. As his commitment, he had -- his commitment was
against injustice, discrimination, segregation. Totally
committed. I believe he had a sincere commitment against that
and his type of courage was needed and I feel that God prepared
him to do what he had to do.
ANDREW MANIS: I appreciate your time and your recollections.
They have been very helpful.
REVEREND WOODS: Thank you.
35
REVEREND WOODS: Well, first of all, I feel that Reverend
Shuttlesworth was a God-sent leader because he was on the scene
at crucial times and what he did for the good of this city and
the good of humanity as a whole, I think his strength was his
courage and his commitment to get a job done and if there were
any weaknesses, I think they may have been in the area of
probably not taking a little more time to at least listen to the
suggestions of others at certain points. But I did find out that
whenever you got him on a one-to-one basis, he was much
different, you could talk to him better. So that was my
knowledge. As his commitment, he had -- his commitment was
against injustice, discrimination, segregation. Totally
committed. I believe he had a sincere commitment against that
and his type of courage was needed and I feel that God prepared
him to do what he had to do.
ANDREW MANIS: I appreciate your time and your recollections.
They have been very helpful.
REVEREND WOODS: Thank you.
35

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Holding.Institution

Birmingham Public Library (Alabama)

Full Text

This is an interview with the Reverend Calvin Woods in
Birmingham, Alabama, December 28, 1988. The subject of this
interview is the Civil Rights movement and religion and the role
of Fred Shuttlesworth in Civil Rights in Birmingham.
ANDREW MANIS: Reverend Woods, if you could tell me basically
your background, the history of your involvement in Civil Rights,
how your interest in Civil Rights developed.
REVEREND WOODS: Well, I've always been interested in Civil
Rights and of course, my interest in the rights struggle
heightened to some degree after I was arrested for preaching
against segregation in the church that I pastor, East End Baptist
Church. I believe in about 1957 or 1958 and, of course, what
made it so bad and gave us a greater incentive because of the
fact that the Birmingham Police Department had persons planted in
my church who was reporting on the type of sermons that I was
preaching and they said that I was urging a boycott, telling
persons not to ride the buses on a segregated basis. I didn't
have any idea that I would get as totally involved but that i s
what I had been preaching, that people were people and they
should be able to sit down if they pay the money.
ANDREW MANIS: How old were you in 1958? You were a young
minister.
REVEREND WOODS: I was a young minister. Well, let's just say
that I was in my twenties during that time.
ANDREW MANIS: I'm interested in how you came to recognize or
believe that preaching about Civil Rights was a part of the
1
Gospel?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, if you would check my record in high
school, the librarian showed me an article on myself that I had
forgotten about. The fact is that I was doing it when I really
wasn't aware in various is organizations in high school.
ANDREW MANIS: Tell me about that.
REVEREND WOODS: Well, according to the librarian, the article, I
was the chairman of a group that discussed current events. They
had pictures to verify that and as a young boy I was speaking out
against segregation and issues facing the entire world. I was
also concerned during that time about Roy Wilkins and persons
involved in NAACP. I had forgotten that I was speaking out. I
was well read in the newspapers and magazines. But really, when
Reverend Shuttlesworth organized the Alabama Christian Movement
for Human Rights, he called a cross section of leaders together
and organized the Alabama Christian Movement. I was not present
at the first meeting but after learning of the organization I
just began attending the meetings to see what it was all about
and became more interested in it that way.
ANDREW MANIS: Can you recall your first meeting with Fred
Shuttlesworth?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, it was about the third meeting that was
held after the organization [of the ACMHR], the pastor that I
followed at East End Baptist Church was a member of the original
organization when Dr. Shuttlesworth organized the Christian
movement. It was evident I think that I would follow him there.
2
Of course, I didn't know that until later years when the history
was read. Of course I didn't know Reverend Shuttlesworth
personally but I just idolized him and admired him from the very
first night that I went to a meeting because he was speaking out
and saying a lot of things that should have been said, but a lot
of people wouldn't dare to say. It really touched me.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you remember any particular sermon or speech
that was made that had a lot of effect on you?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, he made a lot of them that had a special
effect on me and I don't know whether I can just pinpoint one in
those early days other than we are tired. A man has to bend his
back over in order for someone to ride on it. He would often say
"Come hell or high water, we're going on." He taught us that
segregation and discrimination was wrong. He was really totally
committed to it.
ANDREW MANIS: In what way, did a sense, •.• I guess what I am
trying to ask here is, this basic sense of the unfairness of
segregation which any black person would feel as the victim of
oppression and being convinced because of that to strike out
against the system. I see that as one thing but different from
that, I suppose, or maybe not in your perspective, that separate
from the sense of being victimized by the system and wanting to
do away with it, was there in addition to that, a sense that "by
God this system is unchristian, doesn't match up with the Gospel,
and more than that, that it is the responsibility of the black
minister not to put up with it any more.
3
REVEREND WOODS: Of course.
ANDREW MANIS: When did that begin to develop for you?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, it began to develop for me, and Reverend
Shuttlesworth helped to heighten that to a great degree, when the
NAACP had been outlawed in the State of Alabama. It was very
unchristian to prevent minorities from having a voice to speak
out against injustices. I personally felt that as a minister of
the Gospel that I had been called by God and that I had to speak
out against that. This is what Reverend Shuttlesworth was
certainly all about. He called upon, especially the religious
leaders, to be that voice and to fill that void because the
powers that be were trying to cut it off and they couldn't do
that.
ANDREW MANIS: There were lots of, certainly among white
religious folks, maybe not so much now, but the white people who
were religious, white Baptists, white Methodists, tended to think
that the responsibility of a minister was solely to get people
saved, very individualistic. And so very often you would hear,
like the ministers who told Dr. King that he needed to slow down,
and in response to which he wrote "A Letter from Birmingham
Jail." Because there was a very strong sense among white
religious people that a minister's job is to preach the Gospel
and to get people converted and to get people ready for going to
heaven and all of that. But a minister's job is not to address
political or social issues. You obviously must have thought that
that white religious point of view was wrong. Why is it wrong?
4
REVEREND WOODS: Let me say this. Not only did some white
brethren feel that way, but there were a significant number of
black ministers who also felt that way. I feel that they were
sincere about it.
ANDREW MANIS: Okay, let me ask it this way. Why did they feel
that way? Why did you and Shuttlesworth and others feel
differently?
REVEREND WOODS: They felt that way I feel because number one,
tradition; number two, for a significant number of them, fear;
and probably thirdly because they had not properly studied. They
had not been properly taught the total Gospel . Now for some of
us know that we were God-called and had that movement of the
Spirit within us, we were not just out on ourselves. It was
something that we were called upon to do by God. We were assured
of that and we were studying the Word of God . Always one of t he
motivating factors was that .
ANDREW MANIS: By the Word of God , you mean the Bible?
REVEREND WOODS: The Bible. The Word of God. We studied the
life of the prophets. We studied the life of Jesus Christ and we
were on target with what the Gospel was all about. The prophets
of old spoke out against social injustice. Jesus came to set the
captives free, to see to it that people had an abundant life,
more abundant life , see. He became bruised for those who needed
healing. So there were many things that are multi-faceted. We
talk about the multi-facetedness of the Gospel.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you remember a point in your study of the Bible
5
where you may have been moving i n that d i rection already in terms
of responding to racism i n t he sys t em as g r owing up . But as you
read t he Bibl e , do you remember reading a parti cular passage
where i t became c l ear to you that bei ng a minister invol ved not
just getti ng peopl e saved but speaking to soci al i ssues l ike
segregat ion .
REVEREND WOODS: I don ' t want t o appear naive but I had reached
that concl usion befor e I accepted t he call. The Lord cal led
when I was a boy in elementary school si t ting at the
table . I heard His voice calling me. A t eacher can
t his. Her name was Helen Bryant then. She i s Helen
she is at Mt. Moriah Baptist Church in Prat t Ci ty.
called me one day . I heard somebody cal l i ng me.
ANDREW MANIS : Audibly with your ears?
library
witness
McFadden
The Lord
me
and
REVEREND WOODS: Audibl y ! Audibly l I thought it was her . Two
t i mes and I went t o her . I t didn ' t sound like her but I just,
you know,
ANDREW MANIS: Just called your name?
REVEREND WOODS : Yeah . She was a young lady. At that time she
sai d I must be crazy. So I sat down and started crying. The
library table was in the room. We didn't really have a l ibr ary .
The library table was in the corner of the room and we had to get
permissi on to go t o t he library at a certai n part of the day. I
was s i tting the r e . I didn't understand . The voice call ed me
again. And when i t called me that t ime I saw this huge t hing
like a pul pit up in the midst of the air and saw ange l s and they
6
were singing and this Bible was laying on this huge pulpit in the
midst of the air. That was very strange. After that, I won't go
into all of the experiences of the Lord but the Lord called me
again and was on a mountain and was saying there on the mountain,
a chair was by Him, and I didn't think I should sit there in that
chair. And I didn't. He gave me the Bible and I took it and
started running. I ran in the house. I thought I was seeing a
vision really. I told my wife that Jesus had given me His Bible
and people were following me and when I got in the house they
just came all in the house, black people, white people, saying
"Preach." It was all type people and I knew then that my
ministry would not be involved with just black people but with
all people in accordance with the great commission to "preach the
Gospel to all people." So in my heart and mind, I didn't tell
that to anybody. I really didn't preach then. It was at a later
time and I had to get into it. So I knew that God was concerned
about all mankind and that that was the type of minister that I
knew I had to be. I was called to that. I wasn't thinking about
no Civil Rights or anything. But what I am saying, that is the
call of the Gospel, to be concerned about all people. I knew
that 1 s what I was going to be about back then. My ministry was
geared to that at that particular time but I didn't know the
direction that things were going to take.
ANDREW MANIS: Tell me a little bit more about your background in
terms of your preparation for the ministry and from that point
until you became pastor at East End Baptist Church.
7
REVEREND WOODS: Well, number one, I was called into the ministry
by God. That's number one. Of course, I did attend the
Birmingham Baptist Bible College. In time I was called before
you know, I completed that and I received a Bachelor -- I
received a minister's course certificate and after two years and
then the third year I received a Bachelor of Theology Degree from
Miles College and attended different seminars and I received a
Master of Bible Study from Universal Bible Institute. I also
wrote a thesis on the Book of Acts and received a Doctorate
Degree. I also received a Doctor of Divinity Degree from Union
Baptist Seminary, small school, and my thesis that I wrote -­still
have a copy -- is "The Bible is a Revelation from God." Of
course, I attended Miles College later on. All of this didn't
take place. I wasn't just doing that to be a preacher. I was
doing that to enhance, you know, where I could do a better job in
the course of time. Those things just evolved through hard study
over a period of years and struggle. Those things finally did
come about and I did a little graduate work at the University of
Alabama in Birmingham.
ANDREW MANIS: In what ways would you say that Shuttlesworth had,
did he influence you in any significant way as a minister?
REVEREND WOODS: Yes, he did. You couldn't very well sit under
Dr. Shuttlesworth and not be inspired. I have never in my life,
if I have I don't know it, been around a man with the type of
dynamic courage that Dr. Shuttlesworth had. He wasn't seemingly
afraid of anything. If there was a need to go out and picket, go
8
out and protest·, ride the buses, or do anything whether he felt
it should be done during the day or at night, he was the type of
leader who didn 't say "You all go and do t.his." He would lead
out in doing it and when he would get up and speak we would look
forward to that each Monday night. He would speak until he would
just catch on fire, just motivate you. He had a natural gift
from God plus he was a great writer. He just placed his words to
really motivate you. He would really motivate and I remember a
time when I got to a point that all fear left me. Now every man
has some type of fear. You go through stages. You get to
certain stages. God doesn't give you that anointing at one time.
You know the anointing is there because of the change that comes
and getting to a point where it looked like all fear left me. I
didn't have any fear with anything. I am certain that God had
already put Dr. Shuttlesworth to that level. He had to because
he didn 't fear anything. That was because of his leadership and
I feel that many of us got to that point. He had to train us and
instill courage within us.
ANDREW MANIS: Any time that you want to illustrate what you are
saying with stories of how he inspired you.
REVEREND WOODS: Here's a case in point . We were picketing
against Krystal's Hamburgers. There were just a few of us. We
had been trying to talk with the manager. So the manager had
been hiding. That morning a few of us went with Dr.
Shuttlesworth to Krystals. The young lady -- we asked for the
manager. She said, "The manager is not here." For some reason
9
Dr. Shuttlesworth just lifted the counter -- the little thing
that blocked you from going behind the counter. He lifted it up
and went on back there to the door, opened the door and there the
manager was sitting there and he said "Hell, come on out of
here." He used those words. And I, "Just look at that man
look at him." He had that type courage and we being black; white
people were sitting around there, ordinary thing would have been
fearful. But the man didn't have any fear. He went in there and
told the man off. Of course, they did what he was asking. One
night we were marching downtown . It was kind of rough. It was
kind of tough. The police -- a lot of whites were down there.
It was dangerous . At that time Birmingham was in a
[unintelligible]. The police were not adequately and properly
blocking the traffic. Fred told us t o just go on and go on
across. They were supposed to be blocking. The policeman t old
him to have the people wait for the traffic light. He said
"Hell, we've been waiting long enough. If you all can't do
better than that, we're going on." He motioned for everybody to
go on and so we went right on. There are so many things that he
did that showed that he had an unusual amount of courage.
Another time we were marching during the daytime. They had told
us not to march. We were down near the Alabama Theater, not on
Third Avenue but on Eighteenth Street. They had told us not to
march and we marched anyway. A few got beat up down there.
Things like that didn't stop him. Whatever transpired, if they
would tell him they were going to arrest him and not to ride or
10
· do this, if he decided to do it, he just went on and did it. He
didn't let anything whatsoever deter him.
ANDREW MANIS: Did you have much occasion to observe him, and
perhaps you didn't because you were a pastor, too, but did you
have much occasion to observe him as a pastor? What kind of
pastor do you think he was or is?
REVEREND WOODS: I didn't have too much occasion to observe him
as a pastor but knowing the man, he was a person who would have
to be in charge with a sense to take over, take off. He is going
to be in charge of basically whatever he is the head of and it
was commonly known that he was in charge at his church, Bethel
Baptist Church, and when he was called to Cincinnati, Ohio. He
developed some problems in his church. Dr. Edward Gardner and I
decided that we ought to go up -- I was working very closed with
Reverend Gardner and express our concern to him and to the
church to see if we could do or say anything because this was all
in the paper and the news. So Dr. Gardner and I went up and had
a special prayer meeting. We stayed over night and had a special
prayer meeting and expressed our concern. It was a situation
where some of the people didn't want to follow leadership and he
was a man who was going to lead in the way he felt God was
leading him. As a result of that I think that is how his present
church, True Life, came into being. He wasn't able to eventually
stay there, but he was a strong man. He was a man who wanted to
put all his cards on the table. He believed in having financial
reports even when he was leading the movement. He believed in
11
having financial reports, if not monthly, quarterly. All the
board members had a copy of the finances that came in, what they
were spent for. He believed in keeping a tight rein on finances
in all matters of the church.
ANDREW MANIS: Generally speaking pastors, the black pastor does
have a good deal more authority in his church than say a white
pastor does, or at least it seems that way. Are there some
boundaries, as far as -- how do you know that a black pastor has
overstepped his bounds in claiming his authority in a church?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, it depends on the church and the type of
people. What may work here may not work there. It also can
depend on the level of preparation of the people with whom you
are working. You pastor the church but people are not as
prepared to deal with certain things, maybe that pastor would
have to assume more authority. But when you have more trained
people who are just as finesse as the pastor in certain areas,
they just would not allow certain things. Certain things he is
going to have to do. He can't really rely on them to do it and
look .
ANDREW MANIS: Is it the pastor's responsibility then to back off
and let the lay people handle • •
REVEREND WOODS: If the lay people are qualified to do, he should
thank God for that if they are qualified and will do it in
accordance with the way they should do.
ANDREW MANIS: What happens if the lay people think they are
qualified and the pastor thinks they are not and there is an
12
honest difference of opinion about that. Who gets their way?
REVEREND WOODS: Well now, it depends on the type of support the
pastor has from the church and in some instances, the church will
side with the pastor and say they want the pastor to do this and
then in some instances the laity is so strong until the pastor
would have to acquiesce or either leave. So it's not the same in
every situation but in a case like that what the pastor needs to
do is to rely heavily on the scriptures. If he could show
according to the scriptures that he is in line then I think he
should stand on that but there would come times when you just
have to go along with certain things in order to reach a higher
objective. You just can't fallout about everything because it
won't go your way. You just have to suffer some things to keep
from relinquishing your principle. A lot of times people will
approach you because they do not understand, they do not see.
Sometimes continuous preaching and teaching will overcome it, but
you get into some situations where some people are not going to
change. They don't care what God says or anybody, so you have to
evaluate each situation.
ANDREW MANIS: I ask all these questions because there are people
who have written about Shuttlesworth and have talked about him as
a dictator, someone who couldn't work with people, that someone
was a publicity hound, trying to get the limelight for himself,
and there were people in the black community in Birmingham who
felt this way. How do you respond to that?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, I feel that he felt that it was in the
13
best interest of the movement and what he was doing for him to
receive as much publicity as he could because he represented the
struggle and that is one reason why he accepted a lot of
publicity and he is a person who is going to be in charge of
whatever he is leading. He is going to be in charge of that.
What he feels is right, he's going to change and I've seen -- I
haven't seen him change very few times regardless of who went
against that he felt he was right and he stood for that and I
think that reflected the type of commitment that he had for what
he believed in.
ANDREW MANIS: Were there any occasions that you observed what
you just talked about and you thought that was a mistake and you
felt that he was to be faulted at that point?
REVEREND WOODS; I can't recall any at this time. There may have
been some times when I may have. But right at this particular
point I can't think of any because he was in charge and there
were a number of things probably that he did that some people
thought it was not time to do it, but he did it and he went
along. He was in charge and he made that known to everybody.
That was no secret. He would line up and ask those to follow him
who wanted to move forward. He didn't let anybody deter him.
ANDREW MANIS: How well do you figure you know him? Particularly
back in those days, did you have opportunity to spend a good deal
of time with him?
REVEREND WOODS: I think I knew him very well. I didn't spend a
whole lot of unnecessary time but we grew up in the movement. I
14
matured in it and I think I knew him very well. He was a man who
was committed to what he was doing. He wanted it to be crystal
clear that he was the man in charge. As long as you recognized
that it made him happy.
ANDREW MANIS: Let me ask you this. In a large biography of Dr.
King, one author has talked about Reverend Shuttlesworth a good
bit. As his source he uses an interview with Reverend John
Porter. Now I ask you this not knowing what your relationship
with Reverend Porter is. So with all that in mind, and I talked
with Reverend Porter and he has given me a similar kind of story,
but Porter says that Fred was a dictator, that he just couldn't
work with people. He talks about an occasion in which Reverend
Shuttlesworth said to him "Porter, this is my movement. You get
in line or you get out."
REVEREND WOODS: I was in the meeting when he told him that.
ANDREW MANIS: Can you tell me more about that?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, I don't know the specifics, but I know it
was a central committee meeting as I recall. The central
committee meeting was composed of not just members of the Alabama
Christian Movement Board, but Dr. King came to town a cross
section of citizens were selected. There were some things that
Dr. Porter didn't totally agree with procedure-wise and he stated
that and he had some words with Dr. Shuttlesworth and he told him
that and Dr. Porter told him he could not work with a dictator.
So Dr. Porter told him exactly -- that did happen.
ANDREW MANIS: If you were in the meeting then you must have had
15
some feelings about what was going on in this exchange. Who was
right in that disagreement in your opinion?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, I think that there could have been a
little more understanding about it. I hated to see Dr. Porter
leave the meeting because he felt that he should have some voice.
He wasn't trying to lead, you know, but he resented anybody
trying to keep him from voicing his opinion and he does want it
considered. The overall objective of Dr. Shuttlesworth was not
wrong but I do feel that it should have stopped a little short.
As I previously stated, he wanted everybody to know that he was
in charge. Dr . Porter had probably gotten to a level where he
just wanted a little more recognition and wanted his opinions
considered more than they were being considered.
ANDREW MANIS: Did you agree at that point with Porter that
Shuttlesworth was being a dictator?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, at that particular point, I didn't totally
agree that he was being a dictator but he was being dictatorial.
ANDREW MANIS: Was there ever a time when you felt he was being
dictatorial to you?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, yes, there was a time when he ordered me
out of the march. I had been leading the march against police
brutality. I was selected as chairman of that committee and
working very strenuously. I had some words with Georgia Price
who was very close to Fred and high in the movement. She told
him some things about me that were not true. She and I had some
words. I've always been kind of bullheaded, too. I would
16
acquiesce to some things she was saying because I didn't go along
with them. So she called him or something and he became enraged
with me and I thought we were doing fine. We were getting ready
to march and came in town. He cursed me and told me to get out
of the march, that he was going to run this movement and to get
out. I said, "Fred, what are you talking about?" He said, "You
know what you told Georgia." I still didn't want to get out of
the march and at that time Dr. Nixon, Dentist, who died a few
days ago, was right up front. He said "Just get out of the
march!" It embarrassed me. I didn't know what to do. I didn't
understand and so I just kind of stayed back. I didnlt get out
of the march but I didnlt march on the front lines. Later I
think we went up to City Hall or somewhere and when we came back
I still didn't leave. I stayed down at the motel. Gaston had a
restaurant. So I guess his conscience was working on him. I was
standing around there. He said, "Woods, I I m sorry for the way I
spoke to you. A man can speak a little too quick sometime, OK?"
So I asked him why did he talk to me like that. He said, "well,
1111 discuss it with you some time." It was a good while before
I found out she was mad at me. That really struck me during that
particular time but we eventually got lined up. She got angry
about something and she just -- I don't know what all she said to
him. But she turned him. Because we were moving along very
good. I was keeping the protest moving on a daily basis, but I
wouldn't let her run it. But he did apologize at that particular
time, so that was about the only time that I had a run-in with
17
him and he apologized for that. And, of course, after that we
got back together and I didn't let that stop me from working in
the movement.
ANDREW MANIS: Well, there were lots of people then who talked
about Shuttlesworth -- well, maybe not lots -- but from the
descriptions here, it sounds like you have a pretty healthy ego
in Fred Shuttlesworth and the sense that -- did you ever have the
sense that his desire to be at the top of the movement was an end
in itself for him?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, I didn't want to believe that but I do
know that he was in charge and he made that crystal clear, on
numerous occasions. I was really concerned about achieving the
goals that we were trying to achieve.
ANDREW MANIS: Well, let me just ask you to compare Reverend
Shuttlesworth with Dr. King. Because you would think if there
were somebody who had a vested interest in claiming to be the
leader, it would have been King. Do you think that Fred felt
overshadowed by King, was jealous of King in any way?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, I don't know, but Dr. Shuttlesworth was
leading this movement in Birmingham before Dr. King came and he
had some qualities that Dr. King did not have. The news media
described Dr. Shuttlesworth a hard man for a hard town. So you
would certainly have to know some of his background to know what
made him the way he was, the type of situation he was in, so he
had to be hard in order to deal with the situation. Dr. King had
some qualities that he did not have -- more finesse with his
18
words, kindness, while Dr. Shuttlesworth used words to drive.
There. were differences when Dr. King came. Up to that point I
had labored for a long time in the movement but I had never been
put on the board.
ANDREW MANIS: Alabama Christian Movement?
REVEREND WOODS: Alabama Christian Movement Board. I would have
charge of meetings and then placed over the guards with Mr.
Walker and stay out some time all night and guard houses, try to
get things together like that that would overflow. Others, some
of us would take charge of the meetings so they were having some
of the board meetings and I wouldn't be there. Dr. King asked me
why didn't I ever be at the board meetings. I said, "I'm not on
the board." So one night he called me and called Reverend
Shuttlesworth. He said, "Fred, I want to ask you something. Why
isn't Calvin on the board?" He said, "We ll, he'll eventually get
on it." He said, "Now, you don't have a man working any harder
than this man. I'm ashamed of you, Fred. I'm ashamed of you.
I'm ashamed of you."
ANDREW MANIS: He said it three times?
REVEREND WOODS: I don't know how many times. "Fred, do what you
know what you're supposed to do." That night, you know, Fred
announced me on the board. So that's how I got on the board. I
had been working committees and things like that. So that's how
I got on Alabama Christian Movement Human Rights Board.
ANDREW MANIS: Did you ever see those roles reverse?
REVEREND WOODS: What do you mean?
19
ANDREW MANIS: Where Shuttlesworth lectured King and King backed
off?
REVEREND WOODS: Yes.
ANDREW MANIS: I know there was one big one at the end of a
demonstration in 1963? Other than that, can you think of any
other one?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, I do know basically what Fred said went.
If he said we're going to march, that was just it. He was in
charge of that.
ANDREW MANIS: Let's get to 1963. Again I want to remind you, I
want you to just tell me of your own participation in the big
demonstrations in 1963. And wherever as you recall and as you
tell the story, wherever Shuttlesworth and you were together in
meetings or n situations where you can tell me what Shuttlesworth
was doing. The reason I ask this is because, as I say, most
people (interrupts tape)
REVEREND WOODS: The Alabama Christian Movement was the
organization that extended the invitation during 1963 to Dr. King
to come in and to give some support. It was the host
organization. It had been leading demonstrations for a number of
years, riding the buses and getting various other places
integrated, getting jobs, dealing with situations where persons
lost jobs, police brutality, school situations, it was the
Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. When Dr. King came
people who were in the Christian Movement who really gave the up
front support, it was the soldiers of the Alabama Christian
20
Movement that really got out on the forefront in the movement
certainly in 1963 and because such an organization was here in
Birmingham, I think that is the main reason why the
demonstrations of 1963 were successful -- because of the
expertise of Dr. Shuttlesworth and those who were already working
with him here in the City of Birmingham. Otherwise, Dr. King
could not have come in and mounted such a program as was mounted.
ANDREW MANIS: Can you give me some examples of ways in which if
Shuttlesworth hadn't been around during the 1963 demonstrations,
some examples of Shuttlesworth's input that contributed to the
success of the demonstrations, so that if Shuttlesworth hadn't
been there they might not have been successful. Can you give me
some example s?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, a number of times marches took place. I
don't know whether I can be specific, that when they would have
been changed, Reverend Shuttlesworth said, "Go on with the march,
we're not going to put them off." A number of times he said
"We're going to march with Martin or without Martin." There were
times that he specifically stated that. During one particular
march I know that some injunctions had been issued and there was
strong sentiment as to whether we should march or not and I think
that it was Fred and some of the rest of us who stood firm on
that issue and I think they called on Dr. King to go along with
it even after some injunctions had been issued.
ANDREW MANIS: Go ahead and from a personal point of view, give
me sort of a narration of your own involvement in the 1963
21
· demonstrations, to what degree, and in what ways, with some
incidents that you might recall about your participation in those
demonstrations.
REVEREND WOODS: Well, 1111 try to see if I can think of some
specific -- I know on one occasion I was arrested along with some
other persons for sitting at the lunch counter downtown. We had
received a lot of our courage before 1963 as I previously stated.
I was sitting at the lunch counter and a group of white men was
coming up seemingly to attack us. One of them spit on me. It
looked like a large crowd was coming. There was a white man. I
could see his face. He took on -- challenged that entire group.
He faced us at that particular time. Also, after the Gaston
Motel was bombed, on one occasion we went down and I was beaten
by the police and had to go to the doctor. After things quieted
down a number of us were quieting the crowd down. After we got
most of the people to leave we were attacked by the police -- on
this shoulder I was hit with a butt of a rifle. I was knocked
down. There were a lot of things. I can think of things about
other folks more than I can about myself. I was in most of it
day and night through the entirety of the 1963 demonstrations.
ANDREW MANIS: Give me a typical day.
REVEREND WOODS: A typical day began in the morning. We would go
down to the park and many children would come . .
ANDREW MANIS: Where would you meet up with your companions?
REVEREND WOODS: At the A. G. Gaston Motel. That is where we
would meet. Reverend Shuttlesworth and all of us would meet down
22
· there. Basically, Dr. Shuttlesworth -- meeting in Dr. King's
room. Then there was Dr. Abernathy and sometimes we would get a
chance to go in the room. Also, we had an office, the building
is torn down now, in the Smith Building right across from the
park on the seventh floor. That is where the office was. He
would always open it basically to talk and kind of get together.
There was a room where we could get up and shave and do all like
that. That's where some of the heavy decisions would be made.
Then they would get together and decide. I wasn't in on all of
the decisions. And, of course, we would go over to the Sixteenth
Street Baptist Church. We got to a point where a lot of children
were participating, a lot of students. We would have nonviolent
workshops. The students would be instructed in the art of
nonviolence and telling them how to conduct themselve s , telling
the adults if they were going to participate they would be
encouraged not to carry any weapons or anything of that nature
and not to hit back if they are struck or anything of that nature
and from that point the targets that would be picketed or the
route that the demonstration would take would be carried out
during those workshops and sessions of singing and praying and
preaching to inspire the people to move forward. I can remember
that. As you know, there were thousands involved. I do recall
one night that we had a demonstration that some of us thought
should not have taken place. One night we left the St. James
Baptist Church that is torn down in Smithfield. Dr.
Shuttlesworth was leading that. We went out to Liberty
23
Supermarket. That was in the downtown area during that
particular time. We had two or three people get shot down there
that night. We kind of felt we had received some words that we
ought not to make that march. We had a detective come by. His
name was Detective Jones. He had instructed Reverend Gardner and
some others that there may be some trouble and not to go. Some
of us didn't want to go along with it. That was an instance of
somebody in charge. Two or three people got shot. That could
have happened on any other night but we were there when that
particular incident took place. A man was in his car. The march
was going on Liberty's lot. I don't know, all at once I heard
the motor raising up and I heard the shot. So we were around a
lot of things that took place
ANDREW MANIS: Let me ask you, since you were in Birmingham
during the, you were already here when the Alabama Christian
Movement was founded?
REVEREND WOODS: I've been here all my life.
ANDREW MANIS: That's what I thought. I am just kind of going to
give you some particular events and ask you to respond in a sense
of any observations that you had about Shuttlesworth relative to
those events. Why don't we just start with the Alabama Christian
Movement. Any incident stand out in your mind about the founding
of the Alabama Christian Movement and Shuttlesworth's
participation in it?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, what stands out after the early
organization of it, Shuttlesworth immediately instituted a
24
program of riding the buses on an integrated basis. There were
several leading pastors here who tried to nullify it and told him
not to do it. You know, that's when the movement really got some
publicity . Some people rode successfully and some were arrested
for riding. That served to help establish his leadership here in
Birmingham. It came out in the News.
ANDREW MANIS: Let me ask you a question . Let me give you some
categories. You think in terms of the black ministers in the
Birmingham area say from 1956 to 1963. Three categories -- those
who were active movement people; those who were for the movement
but didn't participate; and in the third category, those black
ministers who felt like the movement was detrimental. What
percentage of the black ministers in your mind fit in each of
those categories.
REVEREND WOODS: Let's begin with the latter. I would say that
eight percent thought it was detrimental.
ANDREW MANIS: Eight?
REVEREND WOODS: Yes.
ANDREW MANIS: Why do you say a number like eight?
REVEREND WOODS: There were very few. There was a large r
percentage that was f o r the movement that did not participa te.
I'm talking about -- you say from 1956 to 1963 -- I honestly
believe it was not over eight percent , if there were that many,
who thought it was detrimental. The greater percentage that did
not participa t e but was for the movement , wanted the movement t o
proceed forward, wanted it t o certainly go ahead and probably,
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let me see what percentage of the ministers in Birmi ngham -- that
was the largest percentage of mi nisters. We say probably about
65 percent of them wanted i t to go on and didn ' t really get out
on the front l ine. But many of t hem supported it with their
moneys and through the years many of them had begun to speak out
in certain ways because many parishioners had become involved and
many gains had taken place. The other percentage carne out in a
vocal manner in support of the movement.
ANDREW MANIS: So you would say between 20 and 30 percent of the
ministers were actively invol ved?
REVEREND WOODS: Actively involved. Not everyone of them would
get out in every demonstration but they were actively involved.
ANDREW MANIS: So you wouldn ' t disagree with the estimate Wyatt
Walker made some time ago of 20 percent.
REVEREND WOODS : No, I wouldn't disagree.
ANDREW MANIS: You'd say that was on the low end of the scale but
you ' d say from 20 to 27 percent?
REVEREND WOOD : Yes I would -- 20 to 27 percent . That ' s my gut
fee ling.
ANDREW MANIS: I just wanted to get your perception there.
Okay. In addition you can add to this any observations of
comments that you heard about Shuttlesworth from the black
community when these events took place . Perhaps things you may
have heard the people in your church say about Shuttlesworth when
these things were going on . That would be helpful. What were
the people in your chur ch thinking about Shuttlesworth around
26
1956 in the founding of the movement or in late 1956 when
Shuttlesworth's home was bombed and he survived. What
observations do you have by Shuttlesworth or about Shuttlesworth
around the bombing of his home?
REVEREND WOODS: The majority of the members in the church that I
pastor were very appreciative of the work that he was doing. The
majority of them -- there were just a few as there were probably
in many of the churches, that were there to try to cause problems
or those ministers who were supportive. But the majority of our
members were very appreciative. They supported me in my
participation with him. So there were some persons, I never
heard of many in the congregation I pastor, there were words from
some that he was crazy, that he was a fool, foolhardy, and that's
just a part of it.
ANDREW MANIS: It wouldn't be necessarily true that someone who
said that was saying something negative?
REVEREND WOODS: It wasn't negative. It was a reflection of the
type of courage they thought he had, how he would tackle a strong
problem.
ANDREW MANIS: I wouldn't think that they necessarily, just
knowing how people say, on occasion, "he's crazy." They don't
literally mean "insane."
REVEREND WOODS: No, they don't and they castigated all of us who
were following him with that same thing.
ANDREW MANIS: The freedom rides? Your participation in that and
Shuttlesworth's participation in that?
27
REVEREND WOODS: Dr. Shuttlesworth participated directly in the
freedom rides. I did not r ide a bus from out of town or anything
like that with the freedom rides.
ANDREW MANIS: Remember hearing him talk about those or describe
them? Did you observe anything about those relative to that?
REVEREND WOODS: No, I didn't observe the freedom rides but I
heard about what transpired. Some of them were beaten at the
Trailway Bus Station downtown. I just happened t o be tied up in
church that Sunday evening when that transpired. Otherwise I
probably would have been right down there. I tried not to miss
anything during that time . I felt like it was against my
r eligion not to be a part of -- but I did have a church to pastor
on Sundays and Sunday evenings. I was involved with that for the
most part.
ANDREW MANIS : Let me skip along and ask you to comment on, in
your opinion, and according to your observations over listening
to people in the black community, how did they feel about
Shuttlesworth generally? You alluded to this earlier but was he
the undisputed leader of Birmingham blacks during those years or
was that something that he desired to be said but really wasn't
true.
REVEREND WOODS: He was the undisputed leader. There were some
who didn 't want him to be, but his work acclaimed that title for
him and t he support that he had . He had a strong, boisterous
group behind him. He had a group that believed in action. He
was the undisputed leader.
28
· ANDREW MANIS: What were your observations concerning his
relationship with J. L. Ware?
REVEREND WOODS: His relationship with Dr. Ware grew. To begin
with Dr. Ware did not give his wholehearted support. This was
because of the background of Dr. Ware who had been the undisputed
leader in Birmingham for a number of years. Of course, as time
moved on Dr. Ware softened and threw his support behind the
movement. As I recall at least two times Dr. Ware joined in the
marches. As I recall the movement had a meeting at Dr. Ware's
church.
ANDREW MANIS: Reverend Shuttlesworth mentions that when he
decided to begin the Alabama Christian Movement and call the mass
meeting that another minister came to him and said that the Lord
told him to call the meeting off. Do you know who that was?
REVEREND WOODS : I assume it was Dr. Ware.
ANDREW MANIS: But you don't know that for sure?
REVEREND WOODS: It was Dr. Ware.
ANDREW MANIS: I guess what I'd like for you to do is give me the
two or three most memorable experiences that invo lved Reverend
Shuttlesworth that you can recall.
REVEREND WOODS: Well, one popped in my mind that I had
forgotten. One night we were up to Attorney Shores's house. His
home had been bombed. The explosion was heard throughout the
city and word got out where it was. We went up to see what type
of assistance we could be and Dr. Shuttlesworth was there. I was
there. Other persons. Before we left the place was covered with
29
policemen. The Lord just took care of us that night because they
started shooting. Fred and I were laying down behind a car. The
bullets were just whizzing. Just shooting. I don't know whether
they were trying to hit anybody. Probably shooting up. That was
really an exciting night. We were trapped there late.
ANDREW MANIS: I'm not sure I understand why there was a big
crowd.
REVEREND WOODS: Yeah, so many people had gathered. They were
trying to disperse the crowd. On that same night a black was
killed and we went to the funeral home. It was at Poole's. The
fellow resembled Shuttlesworth a great deal and Fred felt like
somebody was out to get him. But I can't say that was true.
ANDREW MANIS: Was that the infamous incident involving Judge
Aaron?
REVEREND WOODS: No, that was not the same one.
ANDREW MANIS: Was that a similar case in which the perpetrators
of that crime thought perhaps they were -- it seems like I recall
they left Judge Aaron with the message that "this is what's going
to happen to Shuttlesworth." Do you have any recollection?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, I don't know. This is what he actually
felt according to what he said that they probably thought it was
him. Now whether this person was involved in an act of violence
or throwing rocks or what, we can't say, because we didn't
witness it.
ANDREW MANIS: The person who was shot?
REVEREND WOODS: Yeah, who was shot. We didn't witness it so we
30
just came out the next day -- black male was killed. Kind of
resembled him. Another time I remember was when Fred was shot
down by a fire hose at Sixteenth Street Baptist Church. It
knocked him down those steps that go down to the basement there.
ANDREW MANIS: What happened after that?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, what happened after that is he had to go
to the hospital.
ANDREW MANIS: Near the end of the demonstrations?
REVEREND WOODS: Near the end of the demonstrations.
ANDREW MANIS: Okay, as we finish up here I would like for you to
tell me as much as you want to tell about your own arrest for
preaching in 1958. You ought to have some vivid memories about
that.
REVEREND WOODS: Well, I was working for Molton, Allen and
Williams at that time as a janitor. I was arrested at the
building where I was working a t Molton, Allen and Williams. I
was employed by them at Telephone Company Building -- used to be
the Phoenix Building. I didn't know why I was being arrested.
ANDREW MANIS: Was this the day after, like on a Monday, after
you preached?
REVEREND WOODS: Oh, I had been preaching that for a long time.
I don't know how many times. I had been telling people that
segregation was wrong. I didn't know any specific time . Of
course, the law had been passed by efforts in Montgomery, I
believe, that segregation was unconstitutional. They were trying
to get it passed or something like that and I instructed my
31
parishioners you should be entitled to sit wherever there is an
available seat and don't get up and give your seat to anybody
like that. I wasn't hiding that. That is just the way that I
felt. And they arrested me. I didn't know why they arrested me.
They carried me to jail. It wasn't until later on in the day
when they interrogated me that they told me why they were
arresting me -- they said for urging a boycott of a legal
business and the buses in the city. I was sentenced to six
months of hard labor and fined $500.00. The case was appealed to
the Alabama Circuit Court of Appeals which threw it out. They
stated that the law under which they arrested me had been
repealed and that I was wrongfully arrested for that.
ANDREW MANIS: Did you receive any damages for that?
REVEREND WOODS: No, I didn't receive any damages. Alabama
Christian Movement for Human Rights was handling my case. So
they did not .
ANDREW MANIS: Was Orzell Billingsley your lawyer?
REVEREND WOODS: No, Attorney Oscar Adams, Sr., who is in the
State Supreme Court now, was my attorney. We went down together.
ANDREW MANIS: Anything about your experience -- was that your
first time in jail?
REVEREND WOODS: Yeah, that was the first time I had been to
jail?
ANDREW MANIS: what was that like?
REVEREND WOODS: It was really something. They came upon me. I
was at work and I didn't know why I was being arrested -- being
32
treated like that and being handcuffed. They were too tight and
they were squeezing me and I didn't hardly know it was real. The
one gratifying thing about it, I had some little girls. One
named Linda. They were little bitty girls. That morning she
woke up and came in the kitchen and was crying. Her mother asked
her what was wrong, why was she crying. "Well, I saw the police
hurt daddy." Little bitty girl. I guess she couldn't have been
over six or seven years old. Little bitty girl. We were
laughing about that. Paying too much attention to a little bitty
kid. I recall I was in the patty wagon. Went uptown. We didn't
go the regular way. I was trying to holler out the back to tell
people my name so they could tell my wife or somebody I was being
arrested. They just carried me. They didn't go and tell the
people in the office or anything. Just carried me on off to
jail.
ANDREW MANIS: They took you to jail and some time later .•
REVEREND WOODS: Some time later that late evening, Reverend
Shuttlesworth saw to it word had gotten to him in some kind of
way and they got me out on bond and transported me from Southside
up to the county late that evening and they got me out.
ANDREW MANIS: Just a couple more questions. Here is a question
I didn't intend to ask but I'll ask it anyway. After the 1963
demonstrations when, for example, around 1967, the big issue then
was police brutality and still trying to get blacks hired on the
police force at that time about the time of the Liberty
Supermarket incident you mentioned earlier. There seemed to be
33
some sort of rivalry between Joseph Lowery and Reverend
Shuttlesworth in terms of the two organizations? Can you comment
on that?
REVEREND WOODS: Well, I don't know of any rivalry between SCLC
and Alabama Christian Movement. However, I do know that the
Alabama Christian Movement pulled out of SCLC and ceased to be an
affiliate to the point that SCLC chartered the local
organizations here?
ANDREW MANIS: When was that?
REVEREND WOODS: It was probably the latter sixties or early
seventies.
ANDREW MANIS: Was it after Shuttlesworth resigned the
presidency?
REVEREND WOODS: Yes, it was after and according to what I was
told, it was concerning money, funds. There were several
thousand dollars o f bond money that was put up during the sixties
and the Alabama Christian Movement had charge of that money.
SCLC wanted to get the money released and there was a question
that certain people had to sign to get the money released and it
wasn't done and I understand after many years there was an
agreement and they signed. Alabama Christian Movement held part
of it and they turned part of it over to SCLC. I understand that
was what was done.
ANDREW MANIS: One last question. What do you think were
Reverend Shuttlesworth's greatest strengths and his weaknesses
and why do you think his role should be remembered?
34
REVEREND WOODS: Well, first of all, I feel that Reverend
Shuttlesworth was a God-sent leader because he was on the scene
at crucial times and what he did for the good of this city and
the good of humanity as a whole, I think his strength was his
courage and his commitment to get a job done and if there were
any weaknesses, I think they may have been in the area of
probably not taking a little more time to at least listen to the
suggestions of others at certain points. But I did find out that
whenever you got him on a one-to-one basis, he was much
different, you could talk to him better. So that was my
knowledge. As his commitment, he had -- his commitment was
against injustice, discrimination, segregation. Totally
committed. I believe he had a sincere commitment against that
and his type of courage was needed and I feel that God prepared
him to do what he had to do.
ANDREW MANIS: I appreciate your time and your recollections.
They have been very helpful.
REVEREND WOODS: Thank you.
35
REVEREND WOODS: Well, first of all, I feel that Reverend
Shuttlesworth was a God-sent leader because he was on the scene
at crucial times and what he did for the good of this city and
the good of humanity as a whole, I think his strength was his
courage and his commitment to get a job done and if there were
any weaknesses, I think they may have been in the area of
probably not taking a little more time to at least listen to the
suggestions of others at certain points. But I did find out that
whenever you got him on a one-to-one basis, he was much
different, you could talk to him better. So that was my
knowledge. As his commitment, he had -- his commitment was
against injustice, discrimination, segregation. Totally
committed. I believe he had a sincere commitment against that
and his type of courage was needed and I feel that God prepared
him to do what he had to do.
ANDREW MANIS: I appreciate your time and your recollections.
They have been very helpful.
REVEREND WOODS: Thank you.
35