Posted 3 years ago on Nov. 5, 2011, 6:21 p.m. EST by GypsyKing
(8719)
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If OWS moved to Harlem for awhile, and forged real links with the African American Community, that might bear a lot of positive fruit! This separation must simply end someday if we ever really want a more just nation.

No, but the racial issue is a moral issue that has yet to be healed in this country, in spite of Obama's election, which I think helped. The point being, if we intend to push our cause against the corporate structure on moral grounds we need to get our own house in order.

No offense, but my Russian people have been through slavery, segregation and genocide, all in one, right in the 20th Century. Remember, in one year, there were more slaves in Russia, under Stalin, than there were slaves in the history of US slavery. Blacks do not have a corner on the market for pain and suffering. If Russians can get past the Nazis and the Communists in the Soviet Union, surely Whites and Blacks, should be over segregation and certainly past slavery.

It is not like any White, living today owned a slave and segregation, next to genocide....well, please, if I can feel genuine affection for Germans and Georgians, while Nazis and Communists still walk this Earth, you must not want to get past slavery and segregation and you are not trying hard enough, if you can not get along with Blacks or Whites. You should put more effort into it and stop acting like I should stop my life and address your hang up, for things that I have no responsibly for, such as slavery or segregation. This stuff may fly with silly White ultra Liberals, but I know that there is slavery going on in Haiti, right now and there are people being killed, just because of the way they look, right now. The same White Liberals, claiming that I owe Blacks for the actions of other Whites, simply because I am White are not saying to Dominicans and Haitians that Dominicans and Haitians, living today, are collectively guilty for the Haitian slave trade, benefiting some Haitians and Dominicans and why would they?

If you are from Generation X or Y, you don't know what segregation was like and you are not entitled to hold all Whites accountable, because that is idiotic and Essentialist. All Whites should be held accountable for the actions of some Whites, because Whites share incidental physical characteristics? I don't have to help you heal, because I did not cause your pain. I don't believe in guilt transmitted through genes, that is the biggest bullsh-t this county ever fell for. The Whites responsible for slavery, are the slave owners and the Whites responsible for segregation are the ones that were running the USA, during segregation. I don't fit either category. I owe Blacks absolutely nothing for the actions of evil Whites, absolutely nothing.

There is much truth in what you say, especially regarding Stalin, who was a monster, and discredited communism for all time. But as Faulkner said "The past isn't dead, it's not even past." The point is that we carry our history in ourselves and in our outllook on life. The only way to get beyond it is through an active process of healing.

What I think is most accurate is that our past effects are still with us. For instance, while the majority of poor are White, Blacks are disproportionately poor, due to two things:1)The legacy of past systemic racism 2)The fact that the rich and politically powerful have created a situation where the working class and the middle class do not have the mobility to take advantage of their education and or skills. The result is that, to some extent or to a substantial extend, we tend to be not as well off as our parents and this leaves people in a time warp, where we are no better off as a society, than if we lived in the racist past.

There is racism though, no doubt about it, but it is not as systemic, as before. Now it is trendy to just discriminate against someone for not being rich. In the workplace, HR professionals have no shame in suggesting that it is all about who you know, as if that was ok or something. The fact is, that even in the absence of systemic racism, we see the same effects of systemic racism, since there is no social mobility, due to the widespread class discrimination.

I think this is about half the case. As a white, it would be convienant for me to deny the existance of active racism, but I know that that is not true. I am not emplying that you deny it, just that you may be understating it.

In all seriousness, we may identify the dominant and privileged members of society by observing how they fair during a time of scarcity. Identify the people with the most highly prized and scarce resources and opportunities. It is not enough to have more opportunity, for the opportunity must be of such nature that the most privileged members of society could not elect to take it from your exclusive dominion and control. Jews may be disproportionately doctors, but anyone in the middle class could go to medical school, if they study and take out loans.

Not every Jew can be a US Senator and get a train station named after them. {Cough!....Senator Lautenberg.} Senator Lautenberg is dominant and privileged, while most Jews are not, although Jews tend to fair well in representation, for professional careers, Jews are still not dominant and privileged, generally so, the way Lautenberg is, on account of his vast wealth and political connections, so it is not his Ethnicity, but his access to the most scarce and desirable resources and opportunities that defines his privilege and dominance.

These scarce opportunities include top political positions, top careers in institutional investment companies and such resources may include mansions, private jets and access to the most attractive mates; but this is certainly not an exhaustive list. That way of evaluating privilege and dominance is a better and more objective indicator of a persons standing in society, than skin color. This is why I don't bother starting with race. I don't need to know what you look like, just how you live, work and play, to determine if you are dominant and privileged. [giggle]

Well, I don't know if all Blacks would feel cut-off from me. There is no single Black point of view or identity. I may have a great deal more in common, with a given Black person, than with a given White person. I can't simply Unite with any race. This is a great issue for Stuart Hall. He is an expert, on these issues, related to Essentialism, particularly. I am certainly not an expert. [giggle] It is a good idea for OWS oorganizers to consult with Stuart Hall, to help with increasing diversity of person and position.

I am sorry, it is late, I am tired and really sleep deprived, due to insomnia, so I did not follow your point. In my opinion, it is not enough to just have Whites and Blacks, get together, unless there is a really well designed approach, geared toward reaching, to its breadth and depth, the nuances and differences of opinion and background, within each community. You need a guy like Stuart Hall for that. Incidental physical similarities and sociological understandings of racial identity can be very misleading indicators of meaningful similarity or divergence, with regard to other aspects of a person; their political views, views on child rearing, attitude toward money, etc.

Ghandi, I think, understood this issue very well . . . that until a society really practices equality it can never be free. I would also say that the road he walked was a hard one. Yet the painful truth is that we must really confront ourselves to find freedom. That's where our attempts to change have really brought us to; a place where we must confront ourselves and grow through the painful legacies of our long quest to simply survive. Only then can we strive towards our full potential.

Right on. I think this self refection is key and it is stressed time and time again by both King and Gandhi. Authors like Mingyr Rinpoche and especially Thich Nhat Hanh (engaged Buddhist movement) would definitely agree. Thich Nhat Hanh, internationally renowned Vietnamese monk and peace activist was nominated for Nobel Peace Prize by Martin Luther King, Jr.

I would support this with some reservations. Going to Harlem could be a good thing, but it could also be perceived as paternalistic white-guilt. If we are serious about planning this it should involve the visible participation and direct invitation of the local community. I believe some local organizers are already working on something like this within Harlem--- just not shifting a large part of the occupation from liberty square.

Fine, but I really think we must somehow move in that direction. Unity can't just be a matter of words, and this issue can't just be thrust in the closet. About white guilt - although I personally don't believe I have ever done anything to diserve to feel guilty, how can I not feel guilty. Guilt is also a human feeling, and a better one than the alternative. Anyway, I'm glad people are looking this in the face.

I'm just gonna say that, yes, Occupy should eventually move to Harlem. But not in its current state. It is going to have to take this a lot more seriously if it wants to be taken seriously in Harlem. Right now, they're just going to look like a convention of marks.

Well, we have to start somewhere. I'm very well aware of the tension surrounding this issue of race, and I'm afraid that it is more likely than anything to fracture this movement. If we really believe in the 99% we must stand as the 99%

Really, I'm serious. A lot of white people voted for Obama - if educated whites and blacks can unite for a common cause, I think the movement would be unstoppable! Somehow we have to try to put all this horrible history behind us. I know that's easy for me to say, I'm white. But if not now than when?

Any way that effectively and respectfully highlights commonality is good by me. We, the 99% have the power. We have always had it. The only problem is that, up until now, the 1% have delighted in our divisiveness. They've encouraged it. John Stewart actually did a great job pointing this out about the show crossfire and got it cancelled after an appearance on there where he told the truth.

Note: I am in no way implying that we should ignore or not respect our differences. We should. I'm not a proponent of the "melting pot" at all. What I am saying is that, despite many differences, there is a LOT of overlap among groups and we should spend a great deal of time looking for ways to harness that overlap into real energy for real change.

Yes, we must allow ourselves to be different from one another, but not allow ourselves to be divided because of our differences, and I think the races need to comunicate more than they do at the moment.

Or YOU could actually do something. YOU could go to 125th st. and hand out fliers. YOU could explain why OWS is something that they should join. YOU could explain that there are already people of color in the movement. But that would require initiative and effort. Trolling is much easier,

LOL...no my little idiot. Every time I get someone to answer my post and get it back to the top of the forum I make money. Some people have an interest in making this forum seem stupid and irrelevant. Of course you fools would never believe this so keep responding!

Are you saying there hasn't been a legacy of racism and intolerance in this country, or that "that's all over now so we don't need to woory about it?" If the latter, there would be a lot of falsely imprisoned black guys who would probably dispute that case.

Yes, it doesn't exist in our laws or our system. White guys can't be falsely imprisoned too? That is a perfect example of where your logic is flawed. Please provide an example of legislation that discriminates today.

The prison population drastically over represents Black people. Poverty rates. College graduation. Those without medical coverage. Just about any socioeconomic metric you can name clearly demonstrates significant racial oppression and inequality is still very much alive. The life experience of black people (or just about anybody who doesn't live in white suburbia and isn't sheltered from the reality of race/class oppression) undeniably demonstrates systemic racism is very prevalent.

Unless you are trying to suggest that these statistics are a result of something inherent to black people or black sub-culture, and not racism within the system itself. If this is what you mean to suggest then you simply aren't worth the energy debating with.

Once again: You suggested that poverty is the result of poor choices of individuals. I replied by pointing out that this is a common fallacy of logic (blaming the victim) and linked it to you an explanation. You replied with ad hominem attacks and repeated assertions that this is "laughable." Curiously you have yet to actually provide any rebuttal. Do you have one? No? Got nothing?

"Please answer me why the African American prison population is racist and the NBA is not."

The NBA is a basketball thing right? I don't know anything about them, I don't follow organized sports. For all I know they very well could be racist, your gonna have to explain why. I really don't understand sports references. How is this relevant?

That data doesn't exist. The statistic that we do have solid evidence for is that Blacks are more likely to arrested for a crime than whites. This figure should be considered against the context that blacks are more likely to be falsely arrested than whites and that crimes committed by blacks are more aggressively investigated than crimes committed by whites (thus more white lawbreakers avoid ever being arrested than black lawbreakers.)

It may very well be the case that more black people commit crimes than white people--- for the reasons you mentioned above. We can only assume as there is no objective statistical data like you suggested. However, supposing this is in fact the case, that just further supports the fact that there is systemic institutional racism. No?

Thank you for having the patience to point out the obvious. Wow, I really envy that ability. I never really figured out how to talk to these looney, racist types. The don't seem to have either a mind, or a heart.

I think that's one of the few areas where there's actually less division.

But you guys really aren't going to be telling blacks anything new re inequality and unemployment. I think the response pretty much would amount to a big "Ya think?" You're way late to that party. lol Because a bunch of middle class white kids are finally waking up to that fact because it's now affecting them isn't going to be particularly persuasive.

James Baldwin from "Just Above My Head": "I saw some white kids come to freedom on that road. They realized that they could step out of the lie and the trap of their history and be, just be. What they were saying to me is exactly what I'd been saying to them for years and their being recalled to life was a beautiful thing to behold."

The world famous essays "Fire Next Time" and "Nothing Personal" by James Baldwin would be excellent reading for any OWS supporter. Baldwin nails it out of the park.

I agree with all of that, but if there is a chance of healing this racial divide, shouldn't we take it? People can't change who they are, they're stuck with it - if we could bridge that divide, we coulld take this movements chances A LOT more seriously.

You are onto something here. Definitely. Not sure what methods would be best. Some are already underway. In general, in addition to sincere and strategic efforts to broaden the base of support, I think eventually tons of good people of all colors, creeds, ages, backgrounds and income levels will gravitate towards this movement if we are articulate, kind, courageous, outspoken and effective.

Yes, I think so, and above all we must have endurance; be here for the long haul. Humanity is really in crisis, and the same old Darwinian survival instinct, couched in Calvanist values, just won't cut it anymore! Thanks for the comment.