To the Russians abroad it has been granted to shine in the whole world the light of Orthodoxy, so that other peoples, seeing their good deeds, might glorify our Father in Heaven, and thus obtain salvationS John of Shanghai & San Francisco

To the Russians abroad it has been granted to shine in the whole world the light of Orthodoxy, so that other peoples, seeing their good deeds, might glorify our Father in Heaven, and thus obtain salvationS John of Shanghai & San Francisco

Misses us altogether. These are the scientists who cannot accept that the world is only 6000 years old.

Uh huh.....Is that official ROCOR teaching?

I am not sure. According to the Russian Orthodox St. Seraphim Liturgical Calendar for 2011 it is the 7519th Year since Creation - so I can see why you would be incredulous at my mistake. Orthodox Wiki has an interesting summary of the Byzantine Creation Era Calendar: http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Byzantine_Creation_Era

To the Russians abroad it has been granted to shine in the whole world the light of Orthodoxy, so that other peoples, seeing their good deeds, might glorify our Father in Heaven, and thus obtain salvationS John of Shanghai & San Francisco

Misses us altogether. These are the scientists who cannot accept that the world is only 6000 years old.

Uh huh.....Is that official ROCOR teaching?

I am not sure. According to the Russian Orthodox St. Seraphim Liturgical Calendar for 2011 it is the 7519th Year since Creation - so I can see why you would be incredulous at my mistake. Orthodox Wiki has an interesting summary of the Byzantine Creation Era Calendar: http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Byzantine_Creation_Era

Oh I don't doubt that you believe that. Nothing surprises me about you guys.

Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Misses us altogether. These are the scientists who cannot accept that the world is only 6000 years old.

Uh huh.....Is that official ROCOR teaching?

I am not sure. According to the Russian Orthodox St. Seraphim Liturgical Calendar for 2011 it is the 7519th Year since Creation - so I can see why you would be incredulous at my mistake. Orthodox Wiki has an interesting summary of the Byzantine Creation Era Calendar: http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Byzantine_Creation_Era

Oh I don't doubt that you believe that. Nothing surprises me about you guys.

Nothing surprises you? Perhaps you could explain. I am sure many many Russian Orthodox do NOT believe in the Byzantine Creation Era dating, however some like me find it easier to believe what the Church taught traditionally and what many saints taught. Orthjodox Wiki cites:

St. John ChrysostomSt. John Chrysostom says clearly in his Homily "On the Cross and the Thief", that Christ:"opened for us today Paradise, which had remained closed for some 5000 years."[18].St. Isaac the SyrianSt. Isaac the Syrian writes in a Homily that before Christ:"for five thousand years five hundred and some years God left Adam (i.e. man) to labor on the earth."[19].St. AugustineBlessed Augustine writes in the City of God (written AD 413-426):"Let us omit the conjectures of men who know not what they say, when they speak of the nature and origin of the human race...They are deceived by those highly mendacious documents which profess to give the history of many thousands of years, though reckoning by the sacred writings we find that not 6,000 years have passed. (City of God 12:10)[20].Augustine goes on to say that the ancient Greek chronology "does not exceed the true account of the duration of the world as it is given in our documents (i.e. the Scriptures), which are truly sacred."St. HippolytusSt. Hippolytus of Rome (ca.170-235) maintained on Scriptural grounds that the Lord's birth took place in 5500 AM, and held that the birth of Christ took place on a passover day, deducing that its month-date was 25 March[21] (see Alexandrian Era). He gave the following intervals:"...from Adam to the flood 2242 years, thence to Abraham 1141 years, thence to the Exodus 430 years, thence to the passover of Joshua 41 years, thence to the passover of Hezekiah 864 years, thence to the passover of Josiah 114 years, thence to the passover of Ezra 107 years, and thence to the birth of Christ 563 years."[21].In his Commentary on Daniel, one of his earlier writings, he proceeds to set out additional reasons for accepting the date of 5500 AM:"First he quotes Exod. xxv. 10f. and pointing out that the length, breadth and height of the ark of the covenant amount in all to 5 1/2 cubits, says that these symbolize the 5,500 years from Adam at the end of which the Saviour was born. He then quotes from Jn. xix. 14 ' it was about the sixth hour ' and, understanding by that 5 1/2 hours, takes each hour to correspond to a thousand years of the world's life..."[21]Around AD 202 Hippolytus held that the Lord was born in the 42nd year of the reign of Augustus[note 9] and that he was born in 5500AM. In his Commentary on Daniel he did not need to establish the precise year of the Lord's birth; he is not concerned about the day of the week, the month-date, or even the year; it was sufficient for his purpose to show that Christ was born in the days of Augustus in 5500 AM.Quinisext CouncilIt is referred to indirectly in Canon III of the Quinisext Council, which the Orthodox Churches consider as ecumenical, its canons being added to the decrees of the Fifth and Sixth Councils, as follows:"... as of the fifteenth day of the month of January last past, in the last fourth Indiction, in the year six thousand one hundred and ninety [6190], ..."[22]

So I don't see the Byzantine Creation Era calendar to be an article of faith, but I do think St. John Chrysostom and St. Augustine have much greater credibility than atheistic so-called scientists.

The modernism of the Oecumenical Patriarchate in the years following the end of the Great War never graced the Russian Church at home or Abroad - apart from the 1920's Living Church experiment of the Bolsheviks. It is the Patriarchate of Moscow and All Russia that has continued to protect the Julian Calendar, and to reject the modernist innovations that one finds in some Greek churches around the world - from pipe organs to pews, from beardless clergy to shortened services, retaining the Saturday Vigil which is almost unheard of in the Greek churches outside Greece and of course rejecting the calendar that the Patriarch Meletios reputed to be a Freemason introduced.

Even the Western-rite within ROCOR adheres to the Julian Calendar, in obedience to the unbroken tradition of the Russian Church. As the Russian Church grows at home and abroad, with missionary endeavours planting indigenous Churches in Thailand, Indonesia, Korea, Japan and so many places, with a new cathedral and seminary in Paris being built, I cannot see any likely diminution of the contribution of traditional Orthodoxy. You certainly won't find electric candles and a Wurlitzer organ in any of them!

To the Russians abroad it has been granted to shine in the whole world the light of Orthodoxy, so that other peoples, seeing their good deeds, might glorify our Father in Heaven, and thus obtain salvationS John of Shanghai & San Francisco

Misses us altogether. These are the scientists who cannot accept that the world is only 6000 years old.

Uh huh.....Is that official ROCOR teaching?

I am not sure. According to the Russian Orthodox St. Seraphim Liturgical Calendar for 2011 it is the 7519th Year since Creation - so I can see why you would be incredulous at my mistake. Orthodox Wiki has an interesting summary of the Byzantine Creation Era Calendar: http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Byzantine_Creation_Era

Oh I don't doubt that you believe that. Nothing surprises me about you guys.

The Greek Orthodox acknowledge the Byzantine Calendar....

"We had a very special day at the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem on this November 22nd, 2010/November 9th, 7519. We celebrated the enthronement of the then new elected Patriarch Theophilos III..."

Misses us altogether. These are the scientists who cannot accept that the world is only 6000 years old.

Uh huh.....Is that official ROCOR teaching?

I am not sure. According to the Russian Orthodox St. Seraphim Liturgical Calendar for 2011 it is the 7519th Year since Creation - so I can see why you would be incredulous at my mistake. Orthodox Wiki has an interesting summary of the Byzantine Creation Era Calendar: http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Byzantine_Creation_Era

Oh I don't doubt that you believe that. Nothing surprises me about you guys.

The Greek Orthodox acknowledge the Byzantine Calendar....

"We had a very special day at the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem on this November 22nd, 2010/November 9th, 7519. We celebrated the enthronement of the then new elected Patriarch Theophilos III..."

retaining the Saturday Vigil which is almost unheard of in the Greek churches outside Greece

That's as unheard of in churches outside Greece, as it is in churches in Greece (and elsewhere, like Middle East and Balkans). There they have vespers in the evening and matins in the morning. Only monasteries and perhaps, some cathedrals would do a vigil.

No disrespect to the Fathers, but they lived when they lived and they knew the body of accepted worldly knowledge that was then known and accepted. Should we thus believe that the universe is geocentric, the sun revolves around the earth and that humours and vapors cause disease?

I can not and will not accept the premise that the ability of mankind to expand the frontiers of knowledge through the use and development of the intellect that God bestowed upon us when He created us in His own image is somehow sinful and always linked to the sin of Eve in her succumbing to the temptations of the serpent. Nor do I ascribe to the erroneous and hubristic belief that we humans can ultimately learn all knowledge and create a perfect world through science and earthly knowledge without God and the Church.

For me, I just don't need an answer to the question posed here, there are plenty of valid questions that impact us all on a daily basis that we have to face.

What's the appeal to WR? To me it seems as if it's trying to appease RC's who want to be EO. How 'Eastern' can a 'Western Rite' Eastern Orthodox Christian be? Do they call themselves Eastern Orthodox? Western Orthodox? It just seems rather silly to me.

Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

What's the appeal to WR? To me it seems as if it's trying to appease RC's who want to be EO. How 'Eastern' can a 'Western Rite' Eastern Orthodox Christian be? Do they call themselves Eastern Orthodox? Western Orthodox? It just seems rather silly to me.

They would call themselves Orthodox, the same as I call myself, I would assume

What's the appeal to WR? To me it seems as if it's trying to appease RC's who want to be EO. How 'Eastern' can a 'Western Rite' Eastern Orthodox Christian be? Do they call themselves Eastern Orthodox? Western Orthodox? It just seems rather silly to me.

There are people who have grown up worshiping liturgically in ways derived from traditional Western Orthodox rites. They have become accustomed to these and have developed an inner spiritual life based on these. Many who convert to Orthodoxy from Protestantism have no clue about any of this because their worship was not influenced by traditional Western forms.

Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

What's the appeal to WR? To me it seems as if it's trying to appease RC's who want to be EO. How 'Eastern' can a 'Western Rite' Eastern Orthodox Christian be? Do they call themselves Eastern Orthodox? Western Orthodox? It just seems rather silly to me.

There are people who have grown up worshiping liturgically in ways derived from traditional Western Orthodox rites. They have become accustomed to these and have developed an inner spiritual life based on these. Many who convert to Orthodoxy from Protestantism have no clue about any of this because their worship was not influenced by traditional Western forms.

Thanks, Shanghaiski. I highlighted the word above that causes a little concern for me. Who wrote the WR liturgy? From where did they find the materials to construct it? I seem to recall that St. John Maximovitch gave his blessing for a WR.

Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

What's the appeal to WR? To me it seems as if it's trying to appease RC's who want to be EO. How 'Eastern' can a 'Western Rite' Eastern Orthodox Christian be? Do they call themselves Eastern Orthodox? Western Orthodox? It just seems rather silly to me.

There are people who have grown up worshiping liturgically in ways derived from traditional Western Orthodox rites. They have become accustomed to these and have developed an inner spiritual life based on these. Many who convert to Orthodoxy from Protestantism have no clue about any of this because their worship was not influenced by traditional Western forms.

Thanks, Shanghaiski. I highlighted the word above that causes a little concern for me. Who wrote the WR liturgy? From where did they find the materials to construct it? I seem to recall that St. John Maximovitch gave his blessing for a WR.

Technically, nobody wrote the Western mass. It grew organically from the seeds planted by the Apostles in Rome (Peter & Paul) and Ephesus (John). It developed along similar lines as the Eastern liturgy, and to this day they bear remarkable similarity in form and content (being divided up into the liturgy of the catechumens, and the liturgy of the faithful, for example). The ancient Orthodox Western Mass was inherited by people no longer in communion with Orthodoxy, and their errent beliefs were sometimes reflected in their worship (though not as often as you might think, the West was much, much more liturgically conservative than the East). These instances were corrected, and the Mass was also enriched by the unbroken experience of the East when it was restored and blessed for use.

Shanghaiski put it wonderfully, about the appeal and those for whom the Western Rite is intended. Essentially, Westerners who wanted to come into communion with Orthodoxy yet retain their small-c catholic way of life as much as possible, were received and blessed to do so, under the loving guidance of Orthodox bishops.

IN the early church there was always a variety of rites and forms of worship, within a complete union of dogma and harmony of spirituality. Westerners inculturated the mysteries of the faith in their own way, as did Easterners. All that has happened, really, is this ancient tradition of the West has come back into the fold of the undivided Church.