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View Poll Results: Is Islam incompatible with religion?

Voters

48. You may not vote on this poll

No, there are other factors

2245.83%

Yes, because there is no separation between church & state over there

1020.83%

Yes, because the Koran is their only law, and it is against democracy

1225.00%

Yes, because it's "foreign" to their culture, democracy is a Western concept

Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

None of which are Sunni "controlled." And notice the further away from the heartland of Islam the more progressive the societies tend to get? The heartland is Mecca isn't it?

Turkey established a seperation between church and state in the 1920s when they abolished the Caliphate and instituted democracy. And those other locales have something in common. They are all seen as outsiders or convertors by the Sunni establishment. The Shia are heretics. The Palestinians are the Jews of the Muslim world. Kurds aren't real Muslims. The Turks turned their backs on the Sunni prescription of the Caliphate. Most Indonesians are also converters.

The strangulation of the entire Middle Eastern civilization goes directly to a specific tribe throughout history and it is this tribe the claims Islam as theirs. After all, Muhammed was an Arab.

One could easily make the argument that this has nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with the Sunni tribe. I offer that today's Muslim world has evolved into a civilization that unwittingly offers allegiance to a tribe rather than to God. It's the same as Christiains were doing until the Protestant emerged.

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Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

Originally Posted by GySgt

None of which are Sunni "controlled." And notice the further away from the heartland of Islam the more progressive the societies tend to get? The heartland is Mecca isn't it?

Turkey established a seperation between church and state in the 1920s when they abolished the Caliphate and instituted democracy. And those other locales have something in common. They are all seen as outsiders or convertors by the Sunni establishment. The Shia are heretics. The Palestinians are the Jews of the Muslim world. Kurds aren't real Muslims. The Turks turned their backs on the Sunni prescription of the Caliphate. Most Indonesians are also converters.

The strangulation of the entire Middle Eastern civilization goes directly to a specific tribe throughout history and it is this tribe the claims Islam as theirs. After all, Muhammed was an Arab.

One could easily make the argument that this has nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with the Sunni tribe. I offer that today's Muslim world has evolved into a civilization that unwittingly offers allegiance to a tribe rather than to God. It's the same as Christiains were doing until the Protestant emerged.

The point being is that secularism and liberalism can exist within a Muslim majority country just as they can exist in a Christian majority country. Even Arab states are going in that direction as well albeit relatively more slowly (see Egypt Jordan). And Yemen is majority Sunni Arab as well and I would say they are pretty damn close to Mecca sir and I consider them to be a liberal democracy. Furthermore; Kuwait all though not a proper electoral democracy but a parliamentary monarchy is actually quite free even more so than some former eastern bloc countries and Russia itself.

Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

Originally Posted by GySgt

How much democracy exists in Sudan?

Sudan is torn because of civil war. There has not been democracy since there since the 1989 coup. A military dictatorship institutionalizing Sharia law is not democracy. Even then, you have to consider the different autonomous regions of Sudan - the north and the south.

I don't see what point you're bringing up about Sudan since it is clear it is not a democracy. It would be like me asking you how much democracy exists in the PRC?

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Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

INTRODUCTION
Yemen is one of the oldest centers of civilization in the Middle East, with a history dating back nearly 3,000 years. From the 16th to the 19th century, the Ottoman Empire ruled many of Yemen's cities. A succession of Zaydi imams governed areas of northern Yemen until military officers launched a coup and established the Yemen Arab Republic (YAR) in 1962. South Yemen was under British control from 1839 until it gained its independence in 1967 and soon afterward became the Marxist-dominated People's Democratic Republic of Yemen (PDRY). After the two parts of Yemen were united on May 22, 1990, in the Republic of Yemen, the country underwent unprecedented political reforms and took steps toward a democratic system of government.

In Yemen's first direct presidential elections, in September 1999, Ali Abdallah Salih, the former leader of the YAR, was elected to a second five-year term as president of the Republic of Yemen. Constitutional amendments on February 20, 2001, created a bicameral legislature consisting of a 111-seat Majlis Al-Shura (Consultative Council), to be appointed by the president, and a 301-member House of Representatives to be elected by popular vote. In the most recent parliamentary elections, held in April 2003, 19 political parties participated, including the president's dominant General People's Congress (GPC). The GPC monopolizes Yemen's politics, holding 237 seats in the current parliament. Corruption is an endemic problem at all levels of Yemen's government and society.
RECOMMENDATIONS
1. The government should increase the minimum age of marriage to 18 years to help girls complete their high school education and protect them from early and forced marriages, and initiate campaigns to increase awareness of the harmful effects of early marriage.
2. The government should create adequate prison facilities for women and allow human rights organizations and individuals to monitor their conditions.
3. The government should introduce laws to criminalize domestic violence against women in Yemen and work with women's NGOs to establish shelters and counseling services for women victims of violence.

Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

What to be proud of? That we bomb out countries that do not allow abortion? That we bomb out Slavic people that don't want to let their children be smacked for not being Albanian?

I consider the Western Democracy to be the deadly enemy of the values many people connect with Western Democracy.

However Islam I see as a similar problem as the Western Democracy.

Respect of each other is the key - too many "Western Democrats" (takes me a laughther) as well as too many Muslims cannot respect each other. I do neither appreciate one concept nor the other.

I do not understand Samuel Huntington. In "Who are we" e.g. he describes how Western Democracies loose their identity due to mass immigration - in the U.S. Latinos, in Europe Muslim immigrants -, so he is in fear that our perfect Western Democracy is at stake ...

Hallo? Mass immigration and the permanent propaganda that we are the evil White men who have to take care of them and support those people is everything Western Democracy stands for up to what I experienced. Western Democracy means labelling the White Man as the source of all evil in the world. What does he critizise? The failure of a concept which contains this failure?

I hope that there are concepts coming from our societies which can challenge the Western Democracies. There are strong Christian Movements in the U.S. or some Libertarian or National movements ins Europe which can challange our contemorary Western Democracies. Otherwise we will not be able to handle the threats like the radical Islam e.g.

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Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

Originally Posted by Glücksritter

I do neither support Islam nor the Western Democracy as such.

What to be proud of? That we bomb out countries that do not allow abortion? That we bomb out Slavic people that don't want to let their children be smacked for not being Albanian?

I consider the Western Democracy to be the deadly enemy of the values many people connect with Western Democracy.

However Islam I see as a similar problem as the Western Democracy.

Respect of each other is the key - too many "Western Democrats" (takes me a laughther) as well as too many Muslims cannot respect each other. I do neither appreciate one concept nor the other.

I do not understand Samuel Huntington. In "Who are we" e.g. he describes how Western Democracies loose their identity due to mass immigration - in the U.S. Latinos, in Europe Muslim immigrants -, so he is in fear that our perfect Western Democracy is at stake ...

Hallo? Mass immigration and the permanent propaganda that we are the evil White men who have to take care of them and support those people is everything Western Democracy stands for up to what I experienced. Western Democracy means labelling the White Man as the source of all evil in the world. What does he critizise? The failure of a concept which contains this failure?

I hope that there are concepts coming from our societies which can challenge the Western Democracies. There are strong Christian Movements in the U.S. or some Libertarian or National movements ins Europe which can challange our contemorary Western Democracies. Otherwise we will not be able to handle the threats like the radical Islam e.g.

Typical white nationalist rant against liberalism. Liberal democracy is the only civilized form of governance and that includes equal rights for all citizens regardless of race, creed, or gender.

Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

Typical white nationalist rant against liberalism. Liberal democracy is the only civilized form of governance...

From its beginning

until today

liberal democracy did not miss one chance to demonstrate its degree of civilized behaviour.

... and that includes equal rights for all citizens regardless of race, creed, or gender.

Not true. Look e.g. at Spain, where men are punished harder explicitely by law with higher minimum or maximum sentences for domestic violence. Or at countless affirmative actions which explicitely prefer people by race or gender.

Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

None of which are Sunni "controlled." And notice the further away from the heartland of Islam the more progressive the societies tend to get? The heartland is Mecca isn't it?
.

Your theory is interesting but in fact I think that you the real factor is not religion but economy.

Democracy needs bourgeois, entrepreneurs, industrial people who have interest to get rid of the ancien régime and whose interests (free trade, freedom of association, end of absolutism) can only be protected by a democratic regime.

And, in order to get that class of bourgeois, you need a slow and continuous economic growth, like in the UK in the past.

When the economic growth is too fast, like in Russia in 1900, the bourgeois are too weak, the aristocratic class is too dominant and it results in a popular revolution that leads to communism. The same has happened in China.

Or if the bourgeois are too weak, there can also be an "aristocratic revolution", where those 2 classes unite, and that leads to fascism, like in Germany or Japan.

Thus, the only way to Democracy is a slow economic growth that allows the creation of a pro-democratic class of industrials.

Sometimes, the bourgeois are not needed, but that is an exception. That is the case in India, where numerous people have been educated by the British Empire. This class of people has been able to keep India democratic, contrary to the French former colonies, that were ruled from France and who had no class of educated people when they got their independence.

As for Islam, it is not incompatible with democracy: half of the muslims who are not arabs live in a democracy!

And the Arabs states are not democratic, not because they're Sunni or Shia, but because of 3 factors
1) They are new and artificial states without homogeneity (= democracy is more difficult to get in heterogeneous countries. Switzerland, the Netherlands and Belgium are the exceptions)
2) Dictatorships have long been supported by Western States, since they were good defenses against Communism and since we needed easy access to oil
3) Oil, because
- it allows the state not to ask its citizen to pay taxes; no taxes = population does not need to be represented
- it allows the state to corrupt people who are unhappy and would be revolutionaries if they were not paid
- it allows the state to buy a lot of tanks from France, Russia or the USA, so that revolutions are impossible
- it prevents a more equilibred economy to be created = there are no bourgeois, no middle class.

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Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

Originally Posted by Glücksritter

From its beginning

France wasn't the beginning of liberal democracy, in fact Robespierre was admired by the Marxists like Lenin and hated by the early U.S. republic and its leaders. We went to war actually under Adams.

until today

liberal democracy did not miss one chance to demonstrate its degree of civilized behaviour.

Yes it did, as those who perpetrated the abuses at Abu Ghraib were tried, convicted, and sentenced to prison instead of being applauded.

Not true. Look e.g. at Spain, where men are punished harder explicitely by law with higher minimum or maximum sentences for domestic violence.

Yes let's look at Spain:

Political Rights and Civil Liberties

Citizens of Spain can change their government democratically. The Congress of Deputies, the lower house of the National Assembly, has 350 members who are elected from closed party lists in individual constituencies. The Senate has 259 members, 208 of which are directly elected and 51 of which are appointed as regional representatives. Members of both the Senate and Congress serve four-year terms. Following legislative elections, the prime minister (also the president of the government) is selected as a candidate by the monarch and is usually the leader of the majority party or coalition. The candidate must also be elected by the National Assembly. The country is divided into 17 autonomous regions with varying degrees of power.

People generally have the right to organize in different political parties and other competitive groups of their choice. The main political parties are the PSOE, the PP, the left CiU, the ERC, the PNV, the IU, and the CC. However, the Basque-separatist Batasuna party remains permanently banned since 2003 for its alleged ties to the armed group ETA.

Spain ranked 23 out of 159 countries surveyed in Transparency International's 2005 Corruption Perceptions Index. According to a 2004 report by Transparency International, the country's anticorruption efforts have improved in recent years. Spain has a free and lively press with more than 100 newspapers that cover a wide range of perspectives and are active in investigating high-level corruption. Daily newspaper ownership, however, is concentrated within large media groups like Prisa and Zeta. Arnaldo Otegi, a spokesman for the banned Basque nationalist party Batasuna, was sentenced to a year in prison for slandering Juan Carlos, the king of Spain. Otegi, a convicted kidnapper who currently faces charges for defending terrorism, said that the king was "in charge of torturers." Journalists who oppose the political views of ETA are often targets of the Basque separatist group. Internet access is not restricted.

Freedom of religion is guaranteed in Spain through constitutional and legal protections. Roman Catholicism, however, is the dominant religion and enjoys privileges that other religions do not, such as financing through the tax system. Jews, Muslims, and Protestants have official status through bilateral agreements with the state, while other religions (for example, Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons) have no special agreements with the state. The government does not restrict academic freedom. However, academics who oppose the political views of ETA are often targets of the Basque separatist group.

The constitution provides for freedom of assembly, and the government respects this right in practice. People are free to demonstrate and speak publicly. Domestic and international nongovernmental organizations operate freely without government restrictions. With the exception of members of the military, workers are free to organize and join unions of their choice. Workers also have the right to strike, although there are limitations imposed on foreigners. The Basic Act on Rights and Freedoms of Foreigners in Spain, which went into force in 2001, limits the rights of foreign workers to organize and strike. The law, which forces foreigners to "obtain authorization for their stay or residence in Spain" before they can organize, strike, or freely assemble, is intended to distinguish between "legal" and "irregular" foreigners. The issue is currently before the Constitutional Court. In 2005, the Comisiones Obreras, Spain's largest trade union confederation, called for labor rights for prostitutes. According to the confederation, of the approximately 300,000 to 400,000 prostitutes working in the county, about 90 percent are immigrants.

The constitution provides for an independent judiciary. However, there have been concerns about the functioning of the judicial system, including the impact of media pressure on sensitive issues like immigration and Basque terrorism. There have been reports of police abuse of prisoners, especially immigrants. Police can also hold suspects of certain terror-related crimes for up to five days with access only to a public lawyer. Prison conditions generally meet international standards.

In April, an Argentine ex-naval officer, Adolfo Scilingo, was convicted of crimes against humanity and given 640 years in prison by a Spanish court. The offenses were committed during Argentina's "dirty war" between 1976 and 1983, when the country was under military rule. Some of Scilingo's victims, including Spanish citizens, were drugged, stripped naked, and thrown out of planes. The trial was the first under new laws in Spain that allow local prosecution for crimes committed in another country. In October, Spain's highest court expanded its powers to include cases of genocide committed abroad, even if Spanish citizens are not involved.

In October, a Spanish national, Hamed Abderrahman Ahmed, was convicted of belonging to a terrorist organization, al-Qaeda. Abderrahman, who had been held in

U.S. military custody in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, for two years, was turned over toSpanish authorities in February 2004.

Under the new PSOE government of Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, the country instituted a three-month amnesty for illegal immigrants, which came to a close in May. Immigrants who could show residency in Spain for at least six months, a work contract of at least six months, and a clean criminal record were given the right to live and work in Spain. Human Rights Watch called for an independent investigation into abuses committed against illegal immigrants trying to enter Spain from Morocco. After international criticism of its deportation policies, Spain halted a recently resurrected 1992 agreement with Morocco, which allowed Spain to return all illegal immigrants who enter Spanish territory from Morocco, regardless of their nationality. Many of the illegal immigrants enter Spain by way of the Spanish enclaves of Ceuta and Melilla in Morocco. The country's Aliens Law also allows for the expulsion of legal immigrants if they are involved in activities that are considered threatening to the country's national security.

Women enjoy legal protections against rape, domestic abuse, and sexual harassment in the workplace. However, violence against women-particularly within the home-remains a serious problem in the country. The new prime minister has made the protection of women's rights and gender equality a centerpiece of his administration. A new law was introduced to parliament over the year that would force men to share household chores and the care of their children and elderly family members. If adopted, men will have to sign a marriage contract at the wedding that will oblige them to share domestic responsibilities or face penalties in the event of a divorce settlement. Trafficking in women for the purpose of sexual exploitation remains a problem. In February 2005, the government modified its Aliens Law to include a provision for providing assistance to trafficking victims, the U.S. State Department reports, including making it easier to obtain residency permits. There are no quotas for women in national elective office. However, 35 percent of the seats in parliament during the elections in March were won by women, a 7 percent increase from the previous elections in 2000.