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Conspiracy theories?

In general I tend to dismiss them on the grounds that I have never come across any organisation that efficient. The military? the term snafu comes to mind. The CIA, FBI, MI5/6, NASA, the royal family, you name it bud, they all fuck up. Corporations and businesses who make money out of getting things right can.`t be trusted. Airlines lose your luggage or over book. Your mechanic gets sent the wrong part. The list goes on. Even the catholic church which sociologically speaking should be the most efficient organization going, (it being a meritocracy) is a crumbling mess.

Are all these theories a substitute for a belief in god? Having rejected and despising conventional judo-christianity and leaving a healthy distrust of establishment organizations. The young in particular, seem to crave a belief in the preposterous. Homeopathy, reiki massage, paganism and conspiracy theories.

21 comments

Watergate. Nixon and co conspired to conceal the truth about their illegal activities, and because of tape recordings in the Oval Office, and the No 2 in the FBI leaking info to the press, the investigations of the "conspiracy theorists" Woodward and Bernstein were validated. Yes, they followed journalistic practice, followed the evidence, but first they had a theory that some kind of conspiracy had taken place, which they were able to reveal, luckily for them. Otherwise they might have gone down in history as a pair of crazy conspiracy theorists as well. Both Carl Berstein and John Dean have said in interviews that without those recordings Nixon might have gotten away with it. And we'd have today just another crazy conspiracy theory to laugh at. Think about that. The misdeeds and corruption of powerful people is very hard to prove, and they know it.

There is also the theory that Nixon like Trump was a Washington outsider and trod on or walked over too many toes. Such as J Edgar Hoover. The leaks and non-support was pay back. I look forward to Trumps comeuppance.

@273kelvin As indeed do many of us. I may be wrong but I think it will be Trump's appalling record on women that will get him. I'm beginning to think he might weasel his way out of the Russia probe, with the help of duplicitous Republican Party.

The official narrative of 9/11 is itself a conspiracy theory by people with an agenda for hiding the truth. They prevented a proper forensic investigation from taking place, which is also a crime. The physics does not support what is claimed to have happened.

We were humbled by warriors in black pajamas in Vietnam. That's not the point. We're told not to worry about the official narrative as it was just a bunch of remarkable coincidences coupled with incompetence. Nobody got fired, the reviews after the fact were essentially a whitewash, and we got our war on and a security state in place. If you ask me, they got everything they wanted, no matter who it got pinned on.

My statement about the physics still stands. Collapsing at freefall speeds means no resistance through the strongest part of the structure.

Personally, I have a suspicion that the 9/11 truther movement was itself a "conspiracy" to divert honest speculation. Now if you espouse 9/11 theories you instantly sound like an idiot regardless of what you are actually asking about. It is a shame that we can't actually question 9/11 anymore because if we do people assume we are wearing a tin-foil hat.

Some things about 9/11 have never been adequately explained but these things are not the things the 9/11 truther movement seems to worry about. This is why I think "Inside Job" might actually be the "Inside Job."

@marmot84 disinformation is part of the process. Makes it easier to discredit. There was a scene in Fahrenheit 9/11 where it was revealed an undercover cop was trying to agitate violence in an anti-war group. Truth is less important than perception.

@WilliamCharles Oh not the worldwide zionist conspiracy rubbish again. I would have thought this should have died with the 3rd reich. I dare say there was some happy people in Israel that day but guess what bud there was a few jigs danced in Whitehall after Pearl Harbor. It don`t mean us brits planned it!

@273kelvin your gaslighting doesn't work with me. Funny how shining a light on Israel for anything somehow smacks of the Third Reich in your eyes. I answer openly and honestly. I might even err on occasion. If you choose to question my motives, I think we're done.

Let me share another example. Reporters digging for info on Iran/Contra were smeared as being completely off base. After CIA asset Eugene Hasenfus was shot down, the truth came out. The reporters got around 80-90% correct, but were dismissed in the mainstream press at the time for the parts they got wrong.

@273kelvin the fact that you don't seem to understand the "dancing Israelis" reference indicates your level of awareness, I'm afraid.

And as to your incredulity regarding Israeli perfidy, my friend James Ennes was an officer on the USS Liberty when Israel tried to murder the entire crew. He wrote "Assault on the Liberty." It was no accident nor was it mistaken identity. At this point, I don't care if you're a troll or just ill-informed. You present very little of substance as far as I'm concerned.

@WilliamCharles The Mention of nazies was not uncalled for. It is a fact that a international zionist conspiracy was part of their manifesto. I am not saying that Israel is not duplicitous and try to manipulate the news in their favor. Then so are everyone

@WilliamCharles Re the Liberty,I was not aware of the incident till now. One has to wonder if it was deliberate then WHY? The USA is Israels closest ally.The US military themselves have a far from perfect record when it comes to peeing into the pan. The downing of the Iranian airliner by the Vincennes springs to mind (no apologies on that one, everybody got a medal). The Iraq war where most UK casualties were from US " friendly fire". Just like Robert E Lee.

@273kelvin A building had never collapsed perfectly down in perfect symmetry without a lot of preparation... Let alone 2 despite the planes hitting in different floors. I know of a guy that killed/murdered 37 people with a sterno can that cost $2.30 and it was his intention to start a fire but not to find the casino doors chained down and did not expected people to panic how they did. An insignificant random act to set a chair in a storage room on fire during a labor dispute. A random act could cause a lot of damage beyond expectations. Just as I know that much... I also know that Conspiracies being part of human beings since the first 2 cavemen coluted to rock and clubbed to death the dude with the pretty beads that didn't wanted to share.

@GipsyOfNewSpain Okay I know its difficult to swallow that a few guys with craft knives humbled the USA but lets look at what we do know. Undoubtedly 2 planes did hit the towers. Also it is not disputed that it was the work of Al-Qaeda terrorists. Conspiracies surround whether a, they were working with or with the acquiescence branches of the US govt ie. security agencies. b, The towers collapsed after the attack. Should they have done so?

a, What was gained and what was lost? On the face of it it is easy to assume that all the draconian security measures instituted since 9/11 plus the excuses to invade Iraq make it sound plausible. What was lost? The loss of face suffered by the CIA and FBI was immeasurable. To this day the FBI is still on the back foot (re Trump-Russia hearings). The economic fallout resulting from the attack can be directly linked to the crash 2008. Plus it would mean that members of your govt colluded with terrorists in killing thousands of US citizens. It is difficult to imagine that group of people who lets face it sign up to defend their country would agree a, do so or b, keep quiet about it? One or two maybe but that many?

b, Is largely dependent on a, For the towers to have collapsed using charges, they would either have to have been placed there beforehand or after the attack. To have placed them there beforehand would presuppose a level of malice aforethought on a huge scale. Not to mention the risk of detection. I will not even entertain the idea that charges were placed post attack. The thought of getting them there and placing them in 2 burning buildings whilst battling though thousands of panicking people is... To what end? The devastation had or would be done anyway. The demolition would be gilding the lily somewhat and again risk detection.

When we look at the conspiracies surrounding 9/11. Let us bear in mind that this was an administration so incompetent that it could not even get essential supplies the the beleaguered citizens of New Orleans post Katrina !!

@273kelvin There were individuals and analysts that doing their job identified the scenario weeks in advance.... you didn't saw guys in the aisles of NSA screaming... I told you, I told you, I told you. NSA happen to be the only security agency to come out clean. There is a Reason Why. You can believe whatever version you wish. At that moment I was a Contractor. That is all I can say.... Nothing. I know Nothing. If you want to believe that a bunch of camel fuckers can do something and nobody better equip and in better position can not. Is your opinion and I will respect that.

@273kelvin 13 russians just got indicted for affecting the american elections of 2016. That's my final answer about conspiracies. I reckon to you Watergate never happened... neither the murder of julius Cesar. [history.com]

@GipsyOfNewSpain Oh we know about conspiracies in the UK. Every November 5th We celebrate the torture and brutal execution of a terrorist in 1605. Except that most historians now recon it was entrapment/agent provocateur. You may recognize the mask.

@GipsyOfNewSpain Watergate is a good point. a, you had a load of reasons for the white house to cover up. b, It leaked like a sieve. If you cannot keep that schtum within the oval office? The Germans had all the plans for D-day but they didn`t believe them. Organisations are crap. I do not say there are no conspiracies just that the larger they are the more chances of them a, being blown and b,The less they are liable to work. So on a scale of 1-10 fifth man in the Philby, Burgess. McLean, Blunt MI6 spy ring? = 9 Fake moon landings 0.01.

@WilliamCharles I can imagine the way the Israelis pitched the deal.
" Mr Bin laden, lovely cave you have here. I love vot youve done with it but oye vey vot a schlep, my poor feet and my back ach. So hows business? Ah I understand things are slow in the bombing business at the moment. Ah so long as you have your health that's vot I say. Lunch? Your so kind to offer, is it kosher? Never mind Ill risk it but dont my vife hey and please no anchovies, they play havoc vith my digestion but I mustn't complain. So forgive me if I get to the point. I know vot business is like vot vith the price of semtex. All those overheads. Now have I got a plot for you or have I got a plot for you. You will forgive me but you not too big right now but stick vith me kid and I can make you bigger that Elvis already and so cheap, Some knives , a few flying lessons and some of your guys off to shtup those virgins. Listen I got not one but two trade center towers for you. Tell you vot I`ll throw in a slice of pentagon too. Have vee got a deal? "

@273kelvin I am american... I believe Mary Stewart should had been the Queen of England. But what do I know of the legitimacy? All I know is what history has provided us... truth or not truth. Life is full of fucked ups. Some bigger than others. I had seen my sister get lost and ending on the correct direction with no idea how she did it. I lived to see nixon... I may live to see trump. I also believe on Patton. WW3 been 74 years in the making. They are whupping is the only way the can... they put the right president on the white house. It is our fault. For 20 years I trained to fight the russians... I retired and come to DC and DC is full of russians.... WHAT THE FUCK? My first GF russian... next Ukrainian... next in partnership with 2 russians and 2 belarusians. We should had fought them in 1945. Now we are paying dearly.

@GipsyOfNewSpain The powers that be are always selling us a crock. Orwell said it best in 1984 where the enemy periodically changes. In the case of the Reagan years it was like Mohammed Ali`s bum of the month club. Panama, Grenada etc. Mary Stewart? Well if you say Elizabeth I was a bastard then maybe but Mary was a catholic therefore a non-starter. It was only because her son was gay and eminently blackmailable, that he got the job. If you want to go further, the whole Tudor line is suspect as many think that Henry vii was an ethiopian in the fuel supply (work it out). I grew up with a 2 constant threats, Russia as you know and the IRA. Now I see Sinn Fein shaking hands with the queen. WW3? woulda, shoulda coulda, Churchill proposed the 2nd front should have been though the balkans. Would have put the iron curtain quite a few counties east of where it was but the logistics would have been a nightmare. Politics is the art of the possible and war is politics by other means. There was really no stomach for any more conflict in 45, end of.

In one respect it has been the economic war footing the USA has been on since 1942 plus its consumer economy that has led to many of its problems. Yours has been the only economy that has ever done so and as such the debt it has accrued is mind boggling.

Lots of small unconnected conspiracies. I do not believe their is an over arching one.
Big businesses lie to everyone, falsify information, just like politicians and governments, just like religions and churches.
A school of sharks are extremely destructive although they are each out for themselves and will attach each other readily. This is how I see the tri-murti of religion, business and government.

Tuskegee syphilis experiment, The Gulf of Tonkin, WMDs, Operation Northwoods, MK Ultra, Project Bluebird, Operation Mockingbird. Although, there is nothing "theoretical" about any of these. Is your blind faith in government just a substitute for faith in god?

I have very little faith in govt, Thats why conspiracy theories dont ring true. To go from someone who couldn`t run a piss up in a brewery, to being able to fake a moon landing etc. and keep it secret. Just does not add up.

Now all weird beliefs are conspiracy theories. I do not think that weird beliefs or conspiracy theories are a substitute for a belief in god or religion, rather they are simply slightly different symptoms of what is essentially a propery of the human mind: the necessity to find regularities, causes and explanations everywhere. This is probably what made the human species and its predecessors very successful during the first couple of 100000 years of evolution. But nowadays it more often than not does harm or is just a bit embarrassing because collective knowledge has advanced far beyond what evolution has produced.
And unless proper scientific thinking as applied, that pattern-seeking, conclusion-jumping human mind tends to see patterns everywhere and jump to conclusions all the time.
Avoiding all this needs training, self control and experience, it is not something that people can get right automatically, I think.

There will never be truthful answers on the murder of JFK. Too much said and too much time has gone by. Too quick and easy to say that Oswald was the lone gunman. In fact, they had the wrong rifle at first. Then it all gets solved, sewn up, and Oswald killed so quickly. The excepted "answer" only left a mountain of questions. I've been haunted by the JFK murder since 1963.

I remember Gore Vidal talking of it. He was a cousin of Jackie and a family friend. He said " 1st don`t believe the gospel according to Stone. Jack was all for the war in Vietnam. The one that could do with some serious investigation though, is the death of Robert. Particularly when you consider who ended up in the white house ".

Conspiracy theories give people a feeling of superiority because they believe that they have some insight into a clandestine world that the rest of us aren't privy to. There's a psychological explanation that is much more complex than mine.

I do not adhere to them either however the 911 event is certainly lacking in scientific fact. And of course I do not believe Oswald could have done such a hit in the time he had.
But I will not call these conspiracy, just reality in covering facts.
A conspiracy is something absolutely not true such as Christianity, Based nothing on facts , rather just what one wants to conspire to be true.

Every now and then, one of them might contain some truth. The vast majority, meanwhile, are a great big pile of festering woo. People probably wouldn't fall for them were it not for the CIA/aliens/Jews/freemasons etc. spreading intelligence-destroying drugs over the populace through chemtrails.

@273kelvin All but one? An admittedly very brief bit of Googling (I'll be more than happy to accept your figure if you've looked at this in more depth) suggests that "only" 14 were: Washington, Monroe, Jackson, Polk, Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, Garfield, McKinley, both the Roosevelts, Taft, Harding, Truman and Ford. I have "only" in inverted commas because 14 out of 44 does look statistically a little suspicious!

To say that all "conspiracy theories" are false is just as ridiculous as assuming they're all true. There are real conspiracies, they just don't usually get labeled as such. As an example, someone conspired to make 9/11 happen. Some say it was an inside job, and that gets labeled as a conspiracy theory. The more rational belief that it was a terrorist attack is still a conspiracy, though. It's just a question of which group did the conspiring.

There is strong evidence that the sugar industry paid scientists to downplay sugar's role in heart disease and to point the blame toward saturated fat. That's a conspiracy I believe happened, but I try to be rational about it and am open to the possibility that I'm wrong.

Oh for sure there are and have been many conspiracies. Some only come to light decades after the event. The tobacco industry, the war on drugs, (one that I close home with) the Hillsborough 96, the list goes on. Others are just to preposterous to give any credence to, like the moon landings were faked and filmed in Malta. Of all the places to secretly do something, Malta would be the very last place to choose. It is only 12 miles long and you cannot fart there without everyone knowing. Whether they were faked at all? You know all you have to do is look at a 1969 sy-fi movie and see how crap the fsx was then.

Generally speaking I don't, for conspiracy read lack of evidence, but some are quite interesting and thought provoking or flat out funny. But your observation re CIA, MI5/6 et al being unable to organise a piss up in a brewery generally holds true. I would also think that a proper conspiracy wouldn't necessarily be known in the public domain.

When they are proven do they cease to be conspiracy theories? Watergate, Russian election meddling...

The reverse as well...I come from a family whose religion include flat earthers, climate change deniers, white supremacists...any evidence to the contrary are conspiracies of godless liberals.

I "entertain" some but as a substitute for religion? My "religion" is enjoying my life to the utmost and creating because I'm driven to do so. Anything else is an ADD, possibly AD&D (2nd ed) , "ooooh shiny" distraction that will be irrelevant in a matter of minutes.