Shitsurakuen is the first and only yuri manga I've read, though it's a bit of an enigma when it comes the genre it fits under. It technically fits under the genres of: action, fantasy, harem, shoujoai, and shounen. I personally consider it to be rather comedic, too. I adore it, especially since it's fairly dark and messes with my head. Several details of the ending surprised me, as well. Shitsurakuen is one series that a person should finish before passing judgement. Trust me.

The ending of this manga was terrible. I don't recommend it.

Meh. I don't see how the ending is terrible, but whatever.

The girls were treated like dogs by the despicable guys for 4/5 of the manga's run! From emotional and physical abuse to sexual harassment. Most of them doing it just for the hell of it, others believing females were below them and thus should be treated like such! And in the end the girls that were physically and emotional abused on a daily just freaking forgive their abusers without a second thought and even start dating them! After making you hate the guys so much how can you not find the idea of these girls just letting "bygones be bygones" and pairing up with these scum repulsive!? The ending was a blatant display of Stockholm Syndrome! Even the Japanese readers lashed out and the author had to write another chapter changing the ending slightly. Only slightly, because even in that ending the girls were paired with the guys. By the end of this manga all the Yuri elements were destroyed. Even the main character was paired up with a guy instead of the girl she was in love with for the entire manga.

---------------------------

Recommended Yuri Mangas

1. Hanjuku Joshi
2. Ebisu-san and Hotei-san
3. Prism Higashiyama Shou
4. Yuri Hime Wildrose. (A massive collection of Yuri manga by many different authors featured in one volume. There are currently 6 volumes of Yuri Hime Wildrose)
5. Girl Friends
6. Kashimashi - Girl Meets Girl
7. Maka Maka
8. Gokujyo: Gokurakuin Joshikōryō Monogatari (Not really Yuri but it takes place in an all girls school and the girls do a lot of pervy yet hilarious stuff. Maybe it could be classified as Shoujo Ai. It's more comedy oriented than story and the art is great. A personal favorite.)

Even the main character was paired up with a guy instead of the girl she was in love with for the entire manga.

What are you talking about? Sora and Koharu got married in the final chapter, and it's even mentioned that Sora obtained Apple and eliminated the male chauvinism in the school. Even before the 24th chapter was added, there was no true indication that Sora became paired with one of the guys. She was indifferent and focused on her first princess the entire time.

I don't find it repulsive, because the guys shown in the last chapter have apparently repent, and one particularly felt guilty about what all he did and had to be talked into attending the wedding (he thought that he didn't deserve to go). The guys have all ceased their previous behavior, and made peace with themselves and the girls. You may call it Stockholm Syndrome all you want, but have you considered that it may actually be everyone (including the guys) simply letting go and acquiring peace? If you wanted a revenge story instead of one about forgiveness, Shitsurakuen wasn't for you in the first place. Early on, the story's emphasis on fairy-tale knights and happy endings should have been a strong indication that you were in store for an unrealistically peaceful finale.

Shitsurakuen is the first and only yuri manga I've read, though it's a bit of an enigma when it comes the genre it fits under. It technically fits under the genres of: action, fantasy, harem, shoujoai, and shounen. I personally consider it to be rather comedic, too. I adore it, especially since it's fairly dark and messes with my head. Several details of the ending surprised me, as well. Shitsurakuen is one series that a person should finish before passing judgement. Trust me.

The ending of this manga was terrible. I don't recommend it.

Meh. I don't see how the ending is terrible, but whatever.

The girls were treated like dogs by the despicable guys for 4/5 of the manga's run! From emotional and physical abuse to sexual harassment. Most of them doing it just for the hell of it, others believing females were below them and thus should be treated like such! And in the end the girls that were physically and emotional abused on a daily just freaking forgive their abusers without a second thought and even start dating them! After making you hate the guys so much how can you not find the idea of these girls just letting "bygones be bygones" and pairing up with these scum repulsive!? The ending was a blatant display of Stockholm Syndrome! Even the Japanese readers lashed out and the author had to write another chapter changing the ending slightly. Only slightly, because even in that ending the girls were paired with the guys. By the end of this manga all the Yuri elements were destroyed. Even the main character was paired up with a guy instead of the girl she was in love with for the entire manga.

I really see no point in getting so emotional over a manga, series (TV or novel), or movie. I have not read it yet, but there are many stories that I have found distasteful in a Manga or Anime release, but I do not call for the creator to change it. If it gives you emotion, then it should not be changed since that is a writer's main duty, which is to get people into the emotion of watching and/or reading something with personal reaction.

You're contradicting yourself. First you say you don't understand the reason to get so emotional over fiction then you go on to say a writer's main duty is to invoke emotion.

We are supposed to feel the emotions the writer is trying to portray in his work. That is the purpose or art. That has been the reason for admiring art for millenniums. Saying you don't understand a person getting emotional over art is like saying you don't understand the purpose of the art to begin with. That's an insult to the artist in it's own right.

If a piece of literature or art is distasteful, offensive and/or outright repulsive it should be changed. That's just common sense.

DonMoriartywrote:I see a lot of underground manga/anime that have it where a guy often rapes the girl, unemotional toward her, or has never met until the end of the series. Then during the last chapter or two they wind up with their captors, or the guy who basically spat at her, or even the guy she never seen till then. I do not expect them to change the outcome just to suit my needs. It is just a story within the writer's imagination, so be civilized and let the artists work.

You're the exact opposite of the kinds of readers a good writer appreciate. A good writer appreciates an audience that thinks and critiques his work. A writer appreciates an audience that recognizes his talents, the way he thinks, the emotions he demonstrates. People with your mind sets are the type to swallow whatever crap is pushed your way. Critical thinking is one of the fundamental traits humans need to survive!

DonMoriartywrote:The fact that even in a video game, it meant nothing to me for them to change the ending. It made no difference! Mass Effect 3, is the one I am talking about. If you feel accomplished at changing the artists' works just because you are unhappy, then I feel sorry for you.

You feel sorry for me? A person with no sense of critical thinking is pitying me? A person who can't identify good and bad story writing? That is the most hilariously insulting thing I've heard in quite some time. You seriously don't understand the purpose of a story do you?

DonMoriartywrote:In Kekkaishi, I was so ticked off that they did not explore the powers of that one little girl even more, the one that could see ghosts. I was overly disappointed to where I had a major distaste for it at the end, but it does not mean I want them to change it. Do I care? Yes, but I understand it is their work, not ours.

"It's their work not ours"? I can't believe I'm reading this. An author writes a book for people to enjoy not to be repulsed by it! He isn't writing he book for himself you know! He's writing to satisfy a medium of audience! saying it's his work is a selfish, immature and quite ignorant outlook. If this were the case people would be allowed to write all manner of tripe without being critique for it.

Ok then, so by your reason, let us say Passion of the Christ should have been banned or changed. If a work that has demons in it brings me to tears at how sinful the artists have been, I should call for an immediate change of the stories since Christians find it in bad taste. Dude, a critique and changing the person's artwork are two completely separate issues. At this point you are just talking down to me because I disagree with your logic that every piece of art needs to be changed because it shows rape that offends most mothers or a guy spitting on a girl.

I'm not talking down to you because you disagree with me. I'm talking down to you because propose the asinine reasoning that a persona work should be adored no matter how repulsive or flawed it is. Since you bring up PotC, when have non-religious people found the issues that occur in the Bible acceptable? Non-religious people of all kinds have outwardly condemned biblical stories cruel and repulsive.

DonMoriartywrote:So, if we criticize then we should make it law to change a person's work, just because the select few get offended. Does it change anything for you? Can you say it really makes a difference?

A select few? When you the only people you don't offend are people who think authors are free to write whatever they want and readers should just accept it you know you've done wrong! If a game, movie, book or any type of entertainment medium is widely unappreciated you're damn sure it should be changed! Ask Microsoft.

DonMoriartywrote:I say that you cannot get so emotional to send angry letters at the guy and punishing him for expressing his mind on paper. That is like me wanting them to change South Park to a show like Pokemon or Hamtaro where everyone laughs and there is absolutely nothing to get offended about. Contradiction? No, I was stating my point and you took everything out of the bounds of meaningful context.

The moment you open your work to the public, you open yourself to criticism from the world. People send fan letters, people send criticism, people send hate mail. That's how it is! The author of Shitsurakuen betrayed her fans expectations and they sent negative reviews of her choices and she changed it to appease them! When Microsoft announced the XBox One's features and it was widely discredited resulting in low preorders, they changed it to appease consumers! That's how things go!

What are you talking about changing South Park to Pokemon???? What does that have to do with bad writing?!?! South Park is a satiric show! It's purpose is to exude crude humor, and even this isn't a good example because the only people who are fans of South Park are the ones not offended by it. Which is usually the roughneck average Caucasian salary-man or their teen kids.

DonMoriartywrote:They should change GTA to exclude hookers, pimps, and a poor neighborhood. They should not use curse words or gun violence because it offends me.

You're completely blind to the point at hand aren't you?

DonMoriartywrote:And note, I was not talking down to you, but merely expressing my opinion and not saying that you were the one to pity. I don't know why you were to cross my words like that, but somehow you got confused about what I was saying, Mr. Dictator.

I was cross with you because you outright said you felt sorry for me and structured your whole argument in a passive aggressive way of mocking my reasons. I'm not so touchy as to snap at someone for no reason. You were very condescending.

DonMoriartywrote:Ok, and another thing. That last sentence just made it sound like it isn't his work. Yes, he does it to please a majority of the audience, but you have to realize he does not have to listen to the select few of the audience. I think because he writes it he should do what he wants to do with it. No business of mine to tell him what to do. If you find a distaste for it, force him to write something else. Or, if need be, send him commission.

You keep mentioning this "select few" as if to say a bad piece of art or literature would only be criticized by small few people. This isn't about having issues with certain aspects of a story, it's about to do with the story entirely. You seem like a smart person so I shouldn't have to explain why it's bad writing to have someone abused for 4/5 of a story and then have that person forgive the abuser in the final chapter and live happily ever after. I shouldn't have to explain to you why people won't enjoy an ending like that.

aeb0717wrote:What are you talking about? Sora and Koharu got married in the final chapter, and it's even mentioned that Sora obtained Apple and eliminated the male chauvinism in the school. Even before the 24th chapter was added, there was no true indication that Sora became paired with one of the guys. She was indifferent and focused on her first princess the entire time.

Chapter 23 is where the manga ended and Sora and Koharu didn't end up together then. It was implied she ended up with that other guy that helped her. The author then drew another short chapter to appease the fans due to backlash that I mentioned in my post.

aeb0717wrote:I don't find it repulsive, because the guys shown in the last chapter have apparently repent, and one particularly felt guilty about what all he did and had to be talked into attending the wedding (he thought that he didn't deserve to go). The guys have all ceased their previous behavior, and made peace with themselves and the girls. You may call it Stockholm Syndrome all you want, but have you considered that it may actually be everyone (including the guys) simply letting go and acquiring peace? If you wanted a revenge story instead of one about forgiveness, Shitsurakuen wasn't for you in the first place. Early on, the story's emphasis on fairy-tale knights and happy endings should have been a strong indication that you were in store for an unrealistically peaceful finale.

Oh, come on! They repented? The treated the females like dogs for 4/5 of the manga's run and then said sorry near the end! That all! Feeling guilty and saying sorry excuses them for sexually harassing and possibly raping the girls on a daily bases? They didn't know it was wrong to do that? Letting go and acquiring peace? Do I have to go through every single disgusting thing I saw the boys do to the girls in this manga to make you see just how terrible the ending is? It's Stockholm Syndrome no matter how you look at it! No one in their right element would willingly stay with a person that physically, emotionally and sexually abused them on a daily basis for how many years they've been at that school! If this manga was a fairy tale the boys would have all been killed and Sora would have brought the girls all happiness herself! That would be the fairy tale ending. An ending where the women succumb to Stockholm Syndrome and get together with the people that physically, emotionally and sexually abused them on a daily basis for months - years could be perceived as an incredibly dark ending if intended! This was no fairy tale ending, it was a repulsive half-assed attempt at a wrap up because clearly the author didn't know how what to do with the scum]bag boys at the end. This is why the author was forced to add the last chapter. Because she betrayed the expectations of the fans of the manga and ruined what could have been a very likeable series.

Shitsurakuen is the first and only yuri manga I've read, though it's a bit of an enigma when it comes the genre it fits under. It technically fits under the genres of: action, fantasy, harem, shoujoai, and shounen. I personally consider it to be rather comedic, too. I adore it, especially since it's fairly dark and messes with my head. Several details of the ending surprised me, as well. Shitsurakuen is one series that a person should finish before passing judgement. Trust me.

The ending of this manga was terrible. I don't recommend it.

Meh. I don't see how the ending is terrible, but whatever.

The girls were treated like dogs by the despicable guys for 4/5 of the manga's run! From emotional and physical abuse to sexual harassment. Most of them doing it just for the hell of it, others believing females were below them and thus should be treated like such! And in the end the girls that were physically and emotional abused on a daily just freaking forgive their abusers without a second thought and even start dating them! After making you hate the guys so much how can you not find the idea of these girls just letting "bygones be bygones" and pairing up with these scum repulsive!? The ending was a blatant display of Stockholm Syndrome! Even the Japanese readers lashed out and the author had to write another chapter changing the ending slightly. Only slightly, because even in that ending the girls were paired with the guys. By the end of this manga all the Yuri elements were destroyed. Even the main character was paired up with a guy instead of the girl she was in love with for the entire manga.

I really see no point in getting so emotional over a manga, series (TV or novel), or movie. I have not read it yet, but there are many stories that I have found distasteful in a Manga or Anime release, but I do not call for the creator to change it. If it gives you emotion, then it should not be changed since that is a writer's main duty, which is to get people into the emotion of watching and/or reading something with personal reaction.

You're contradicting yourself. First you say you don't understand the reason to get so emotional over fiction then you go on to say a writer's main duty is to invoke emotion.

We are supposed to feel the emotions the writer is trying to portray in his work. That is the purpose or art. That has been the reason for admiring art for millenniums. Saying you don't understand a person getting emotional over art is like saying you don't understand the purpose of the art to begin with. That's an insult to the artist in it's own right.

If a piece of literature or art is distasteful, offensive and/or outright repulsive it should be changed. That's just common sense.

DonMoriartywrote:I see a lot of underground manga/anime that have it where a guy often rapes the girl, unemotional toward her, or has never met until the end of the series. Then during the last chapter or two they wind up with their captors, or the guy who basically spat at her, or even the guy she never seen till then. I do not expect them to change the outcome just to suit my needs. It is just a story within the writer's imagination, so be civilized and let the artists work.

You're the exact opposite of the kinds of readers a good writer appreciate. A good writer appreciates an audience that thinks and critiques his work. A writer appreciates an audience that recognizes his talents, the way he thinks, the emotions he demonstrates. People with your mind sets are the type to swallow whatever crap is pushed your way. Critical thinking is one of the fundamental traits humans need to survive!

DonMoriartywrote:The fact that even in a video game, it meant nothing to me for them to change the ending. It made no difference! Mass Effect 3, is the one I am talking about. If you feel accomplished at changing the artists' works just because you are unhappy, then I feel sorry for you.

You feel sorry for me? A person with no sense of critical thinking is pitying me? A person who can't identify good and bad story writing? That is the most hilariously insulting thing I've heard in quite some time. You seriously don't understand the purpose of a story do you?

DonMoriartywrote:In Kekkaishi, I was so ticked off that they did not explore the powers of that one little girl even more, the one that could see ghosts. I was overly disappointed to where I had a major distaste for it at the end, but it does not mean I want them to change it. Do I care? Yes, but I understand it is their work, not ours.

"It's their work not ours"? I can't believe I'm reading this. An author writes a book for people to enjoy not to be repulsed by it! He isn't writing he book for himself you know! He's writing to satisfy a medium of audience! saying it's his work is a selfish, immature and quite ignorant outlook. If this were the case people would be allowed to write all manner of tripe without being critique for it.

Ok then, so by your reason, let us say Passion of the Christ should have been banned or changed. If a work that has demons in it brings me to tears at how sinful the artists have been, I should call for an immediate change of the stories since Christians find it in bad taste. Dude, a critique and changing the person's artwork are two completely separate issues. At this point you are just talking down to me because I disagree with your logic that every piece of art needs to be changed because it shows rape that offends most mothers or a guy spitting on a girl.

I'm not talking down to you because you disagree with me. I'm talking down to you because propose the asinine reasoning that a persona work should be adored no matter how repulsive or flawed it is. Since you bring up PotC, when have non-religious people found the issues that occur in the Bible acceptable? Non-religious people of all kinds have outwardly condemned biblical stories cruel and repulsive.

DonMoriartywrote:So, if we criticize then we should make it law to change a person's work, just because the select few get offended. Does it change anything for you? Can you say it really makes a difference?

A select few? When you the only people you don't offend are people who think authors are free to write whatever they want and readers should just accept it you know you've done wrong! If a game, movie, book or any type of entertainment medium is widely unappreciated you're damn sure it should be changed! Ask Microsoft.

DonMoriartywrote:I say that you cannot get so emotional to send angry letters at the guy and punishing him for expressing his mind on paper. That is like me wanting them to change South Park to a show like Pokemon or Hamtaro where everyone laughs and there is absolutely nothing to get offended about. Contradiction? No, I was stating my point and you took everything out of the bounds of meaningful context.

The moment you open your work to the public, you open yourself to criticism from the world. People send fan letters, people send criticism, people send hate mail. That's how it is! The author of Shitsurakuen betrayed her fans expectations and they sent negative reviews of her choices and she changed it to appease them! When Microsoft announced the XBox One's features and it was widely discredited resulting in low preorders, they changed it to appease consumers! That's how things go!

What are you talking about changing South Park to Pokemon???? What does that have to do with bad writing?!?! South Park is a satiric show! It's purpose is to exude crude humor, and even this isn't a good example because the only people who are fans of South Park are the ones not offended by it. Which is usually the roughneck average Caucasian salary-man or their teen kids.

DonMoriartywrote:They should change GTA to exclude hookers, pimps, and a poor neighborhood. They should not use curse words or gun violence because it offends me.

You're completely blind to the point at hand aren't you?

DonMoriartywrote:And note, I was not talking down to you, but merely expressing my opinion and not saying that you were the one to pity. I don't know why you were to cross my words like that, but somehow you got confused about what I was saying, Mr. Dictator.

I was cross with you because you outright said you felt sorry for me and structured your whole argument in a passive aggressive way of mocking my reasons. I'm not so touchy as to snap at someone for no reason. You were very condescending.

DonMoriartywrote:Ok, and another thing. That last sentence just made it sound like it isn't his work. Yes, he does it to please a majority of the audience, but you have to realize he does not have to listen to the select few of the audience. I think because he writes it he should do what he wants to do with it. No business of mine to tell him what to do. If you find a distaste for it, force him to write something else. Or, if need be, send him commission.

You keep mentioning this "select few" as if to say a bad piece of art or literature would only be criticized by small few people. This isn't about having issues with certain aspects of a story, it's about to do with the story entirely. You seem like a smart person so I shouldn't have to explain why it's bad writing to have someone abused for 4/5 of a story and then have that person forgive the abuser in the final chapter and live happily ever after. I shouldn't have to explain to you why people won't enjoy an ending like that.

Shitsurakuen is the first and only yuri manga I've read, though it's a bit of an enigma when it comes the genre it fits under. It technically fits under the genres of: action, fantasy, harem, shoujoai, and shounen. I personally consider it to be rather comedic, too. I adore it, especially since it's fairly dark and messes with my head. Several details of the ending surprised me, as well. Shitsurakuen is one series that a person should finish before passing judgement. Trust me.

The ending of this manga was terrible. I don't recommend it.

Meh. I don't see how the ending is terrible, but whatever.

The girls were treated like dogs by the despicable guys for 4/5 of the manga's run! From emotional and physical abuse to sexual harassment. Most of them doing it just for the hell of it, others believing females were below them and thus should be treated like such! And in the end the girls that were physically and emotional abused on a daily just freaking forgive their abusers without a second thought and even start dating them! After making you hate the guys so much how can you not find the idea of these girls just letting "bygones be bygones" and pairing up with these scum repulsive!? The ending was a blatant display of Stockholm Syndrome! Even the Japanese readers lashed out and the author had to write another chapter changing the ending slightly. Only slightly, because even in that ending the girls were paired with the guys. By the end of this manga all the Yuri elements were destroyed. Even the main character was paired up with a guy instead of the girl she was in love with for the entire manga.

---------------------------

Recommended Yuri Mangas

1. Hanjuku Joshi
2. Ebisu-san and Hotei-san
3. Prism Higashiyama Shou
4. Yuri Hime Wildrose. (A massive collection of Yuri manga by many different authors featured in one volume. There are currently 6 volumes of Yuri Hime Wildrose)
5. Girl Friends
6. Kashimashi - Girl Meets Girl
7. Maka Maka
8. Gokujyo: Gokurakuin Joshikōryō Monogatari (Not really Yuri but it takes place in an all girls school and the girls do a lot of pervy yet hilarious stuff. Maybe it could be classified as Shoujo Ai. It's more comedy oriented than story and the art is great. A personal favorite.)

Even the main character was paired up with a guy instead of the girl she was in love with for the entire manga.

aeb0717wrote:What are you talking about? Sora and Koharu got married in the final chapter, and it's even mentioned that Sora obtained Apple and eliminated the male chauvinism in the school. Even before the 24th chapter was added, there was no true indication that Sora became paired with one of the guys. She was indifferent and focused on her first princess the entire time.

Chapter 23 is where the manga ended and Sora and Koharu didn't end up together then. It was implied she ended up with that other guy that helped her. The author then drew another short chapter to appease the fans due to backlash that I mentioned in my post.

aeb0717wrote:I don't find it repulsive, because the guys shown in the last chapter have apparently repent, and one particularly felt guilty about what all he did and had to be talked into attending the wedding (he thought that he didn't deserve to go). The guys have all ceased their previous behavior, and made peace with themselves and the girls. You may call it Stockholm Syndrome all you want, but have you considered that it may actually be everyone (including the guys) simply letting go and acquiring peace? If you wanted a revenge story instead of one about forgiveness, Shitsurakuen wasn't for you in the first place. Early on, the story's emphasis on fairy-tale knights and happy endings should have been a strong indication that you were in store for an unrealistically peaceful finale.

Are you serious? They repented? The treated the females like dogs for 3/4 of the mangas run and then said sorry! That all! Feeling guilty and saying sorry excuses them for sexually harassing and possibily raping the girls on a daily bases? Emotionally and physically abusing them? Letting go and acquiring peace? Do I have to go through every single disgusting thing I saw the boys do to the girls in this manga? It's Stockholm Syndrome no matter how you look at it! No one in their right element would willingly stay with a person that physically, emotionally and sexually abused them on a daily basis! If this manga was a fairy tale the boys would have all been killed and Sora would have brought them all happiness! That would be the fairy tail ending. An ending where the women succumb to Stockholm Syndrome and get together with the people that physically, emotionally and sexually abused them on a daily basis is an incredibly dark ending! This is why the author was forced to add the last chapter. Because she betrayed the expectations of the fans of the manga and ruined what could have been a very likeable series.

Well what you said was that the writers should not be free to write what they want. I don't say you don't have to accept as your opinion, but making them change what they write means little. It's like "this is how it ends" and then "this is how I want it to end". Watch Misery and see how it looks from your perspective. It is like the readers grabbing the writer by the balls and tell them what to write.

Xbox One? So you are comparing an entertainment center with a manga series? There are only two real companies in gaming now besides the PC market (which is vast), so it is considered more of a restricted market. You either choose PS4 or Xbox One. You can also pick up a Wii U, but it is not in the same fight as Sony and Microsoft as it watches from the sidelines. You also have Ouya and GameStick which are not considered part of the console wars just yet.

If you had more of a vast market of consoles in the same ring, I would say go ahead and make your console, I have these other 3 to choose from. Complaints would be far smaller because of the choices. Just like with Win8, Linux, and Apple's OS, which is why Microsoft gets flagged when they make something wrong with their OS.

If there were only 3 authors, I would probably rage about it, but there are hundreds upon millions of such. So, if I dislike it, I might review it poorly or give my critique. It is their choice to change it. If it ends and I want more I will express it, but if it sucks horribly I will not ask them to change the ending to suit my needs, I will just tell them why it sucks. It defeats the purpose of writing a novel if it already has an ending and you "have" to change the ending when it has already been published and sent out.

So, if I publish a book, and it sucks, I must change it by a law that other people set? If it ends, it ends. If you give in to pressure, your choice. If it sucks though and I think of it as the end of that series, then I make another and take in the criticism of what I did wrong.

Shitsurakuen is the first and only yuri manga I've read, though it's a bit of an enigma when it comes the genre it fits under. It technically fits under the genres of: action, fantasy, harem, shoujoai, and shounen. I personally consider it to be rather comedic, too. I adore it, especially since it's fairly dark and messes with my head. Several details of the ending surprised me, as well. Shitsurakuen is one series that a person should finish before passing judgement. Trust me.

The ending of this manga was terrible. I don't recommend it.

Meh. I don't see how the ending is terrible, but whatever.

The girls were treated like dogs by the despicable guys for 4/5 of the manga's run! From emotional and physical abuse to sexual harassment. Most of them doing it just for the hell of it, others believing females were below them and thus should be treated like such! And in the end the girls that were physically and emotional abused on a daily just freaking forgive their abusers without a second thought and even start dating them! After making you hate the guys so much how can you not find the idea of these girls just letting "bygones be bygones" and pairing up with these scum repulsive!? The ending was a blatant display of Stockholm Syndrome! Even the Japanese readers lashed out and the author had to write another chapter changing the ending slightly. Only slightly, because even in that ending the girls were paired with the guys. By the end of this manga all the Yuri elements were destroyed. Even the main character was paired up with a guy instead of the girl she was in love with for the entire manga.

I really see no point in getting so emotional over a manga, series (TV or novel), or movie. I have not read it yet, but there are many stories that I have found distasteful in a Manga or Anime release, but I do not call for the creator to change it. If it gives you emotion, then it should not be changed since that is a writer's main duty, which is to get people into the emotion of watching and/or reading something with personal reaction.

You're contradicting yourself. First you say you don't understand the reason to get so emotional over fiction then you go on to say a writer's main duty is to invoke emotion.

We are supposed to feel the emotions the writer is trying to portray in his work. That is the purpose or art. That has been the reason for admiring art for millenniums. Saying you don't understand a person getting emotional over art is like saying you don't understand the purpose of the art to begin with. That's an insult to the artist in it's own right.

If a piece of literature or art is distasteful, offensive and/or outright repulsive it should be changed. That's just common sense.

DonMoriartywrote:I see a lot of underground manga/anime that have it where a guy often rapes the girl, unemotional toward her, or has never met until the end of the series. Then during the last chapter or two they wind up with their captors, or the guy who basically spat at her, or even the guy she never seen till then. I do not expect them to change the outcome just to suit my needs. It is just a story within the writer's imagination, so be civilized and let the artists work.

You're the exact opposite of the kinds of readers a good writer appreciate. A good writer appreciates an audience that thinks and critiques his work. A writer appreciates an audience that recognizes his talents, the way he thinks, the emotions he demonstrates. People with your mind sets are the type to swallow whatever crap is pushed your way. Critical thinking is one of the fundamental traits humans need to survive!

DonMoriartywrote:The fact that even in a video game, it meant nothing to me for them to change the ending. It made no difference! Mass Effect 3, is the one I am talking about. If you feel accomplished at changing the artists' works just because you are unhappy, then I feel sorry for you.

You feel sorry for me? A person with no sense of critical thinking is pitying me? A person who can't identify good and bad story writing? That is the most hilariously insulting thing I've heard in quite some time. You seriously don't understand the purpose of a story do you?

DonMoriartywrote:In Kekkaishi, I was so ticked off that they did not explore the powers of that one little girl even more, the one that could see ghosts. I was overly disappointed to where I had a major distaste for it at the end, but it does not mean I want them to change it. Do I care? Yes, but I understand it is their work, not ours.

"It's their work not ours"? I can't believe I'm reading this. An author writes a book for people to enjoy not to be repulsed by it! He isn't writing he book for himself you know! He's writing to satisfy a medium of audience! saying it's his work is a selfish, immature and quite ignorant outlook. If this were the case people would be allowed to write all manner of tripe without being critique for it.

Ok then, so by your reason, let us say Passion of the Christ should have been banned or changed. If a work that has demons in it brings me to tears at how sinful the artists have been, I should call for an immediate change of the stories since Christians find it in bad taste. Dude, a critique and changing the person's artwork are two completely separate issues. At this point you are just talking down to me because I disagree with your logic that every piece of art needs to be changed because it shows rape that offends most mothers or a guy spitting on a girl.

I'm not talking down to you because you disagree with me. I'm talking down to you because propose the asinine reasoning that a persona work should be adored no matter how repulsive or flawed it is. Since you bring up PotC, when have non-religious people found the issues that occur in the Bible acceptable? Non-religious people of all kinds have outwardly condemned biblical stories cruel and repulsive.

DonMoriartywrote:So, if we criticize then we should make it law to change a person's work, just because the select few get offended. Does it change anything for you? Can you say it really makes a difference?

A select few? When you the only people you don't offend are people who think authors are free to write whatever they want and readers should just accept it you know you've done wrong! If a game, movie, book or any type of entertainment medium is widely unappreciated you're damn sure it should be changed! Ask Microsoft.

DonMoriartywrote:I say that you cannot get so emotional to send angry letters at the guy and punishing him for expressing his mind on paper. That is like me wanting them to change South Park to a show like Pokemon or Hamtaro where everyone laughs and there is absolutely nothing to get offended about. Contradiction? No, I was stating my point and you took everything out of the bounds of meaningful context.

The moment you open your work to the public, you open yourself to criticism from the world. People send fan letters, people send criticism, people send hate mail. That's how it is! The author of Shitsurakuen betrayed her fans expectations and they sent negative reviews of her choices and she changed it to appease them! When Microsoft announced the XBox One's features and it was widely discredited resulting in low preorders, they changed it to appease consumers! That's how things go!

What are you talking about changing South Park to Pokemon???? What does that have to do with bad writing?!?! South Park is a satiric show! It's purpose is to exude crude humor, and even this isn't a good example because the only people who are fans of South Park are the ones not offended by it. Which is usually the roughneck average Caucasian salary-man or their teen kids.

DonMoriartywrote:They should change GTA to exclude hookers, pimps, and a poor neighborhood. They should not use curse words or gun violence because it offends me.

You're completely blind to the point at hand aren't you?

DonMoriartywrote:And note, I was not talking down to you, but merely expressing my opinion and not saying that you were the one to pity. I don't know why you were to cross my words like that, but somehow you got confused about what I was saying, Mr. Dictator.

I was cross with you because you outright said you felt sorry for me and structured your whole argument in a passive aggressive way of mocking my reasons. I'm not so touchy as to snap at someone for no reason. You were very condescending.

DonMoriartywrote:Ok, and another thing. That last sentence just made it sound like it isn't his work. Yes, he does it to please a majority of the audience, but you have to realize he does not have to listen to the select few of the audience. I think because he writes it he should do what he wants to do with it. No business of mine to tell him what to do. If you find a distaste for it, force him to write something else. Or, if need be, send him commission.

You keep mentioning this "select few" as if to say a bad piece of art or literature would only be criticized by small few people. This isn't about having issues with certain aspects of a story, it's about to do with the story entirely. You seem like a smart person so I shouldn't have to explain why it's bad writing to have someone abused for 4/5 of a story and then have that person forgive the abuser in the final chapter and live happily ever after. I shouldn't have to explain to you why people won't enjoy an ending like that.

aeb0717wrote:What are you talking about? Sora and Koharu got married in the final chapter, and it's even mentioned that Sora obtained Apple and eliminated the male chauvinism in the school. Even before the 24th chapter was added, there was no true indication that Sora became paired with one of the guys. She was indifferent and focused on her first princess the entire time.

Chapter 23 is where the manga ended and Sora and Koharu didn't end up together then. It was implied she ended up with that other guy that helped her. The author then drew another short chapter to appease the fans due to backlash that I mentioned in my post.

aeb0717wrote:I don't find it repulsive, because the guys shown in the last chapter have apparently repent, and one particularly felt guilty about what all he did and had to be talked into attending the wedding (he thought that he didn't deserve to go). The guys have all ceased their previous behavior, and made peace with themselves and the girls. You may call it Stockholm Syndrome all you want, but have you considered that it may actually be everyone (including the guys) simply letting go and acquiring peace? If you wanted a revenge story instead of one about forgiveness, Shitsurakuen wasn't for you in the first place. Early on, the story's emphasis on fairy-tale knights and happy endings should have been a strong indication that you were in store for an unrealistically peaceful finale.

Oh, come on! They repented? The treated the females like dogs for 4/5 of the manga's run and then said sorry near the end! That all! Feeling guilty and saying sorry excuses them for sexually harassing and possibly raping the girls on a daily bases? They didn't know it was wrong to do that? Letting go and acquiring peace? Do I have to go through every single disgusting thing I saw the boys do to the girls in this manga to make you see just how terrible the ending is? It's Stockholm Syndrome no matter how you look at it! No one in their right element would willingly stay with a person that physically, emotionally and sexually abused them on a daily basis for how many years they've been at that school! If this manga was a fairy tale the boys would have all been killed and Sora would have brought the girls all happiness herself! That would be the fairy tale ending. An ending where the women succumb to Stockholm Syndrome and get together with the people that physically, emotionally and sexually abused them on a daily basis for months - years could be perceived as an incredibly dark ending if intended! This was no fairy tale ending, it was a repulsive half-assed attempt at a wrap up because clearly the author didn't know how what to do with the scum]bag boys at the end. This is why the author was forced to add the last chapter. Because she betrayed the expectations of the fans of the manga and ruined what could have been a very likeable series.

I'm fully aware of what went on in the series. I read the series within the last few days and I caught the 24th chapter earlier today, so please don't repeatedly feed me your overview of events. Also, I never said that the ending is like that of a fairy tail, and your perception of how a fairy tale version of this would end is speculation at best. I merely meant that the ending is fairly "fluffy" by lacking violent retribution against the males. I don't agree with you on the quality of the ending and the Stockholm Syndrome bit, and you're not about to change my mind. Don't get me wrong, because I did spend a good bit of time wanting to pound the heads in of alot of the boys; however, I have no problem accepting how it ended, because I expected something similar about halfway through. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't see Sora condoning the sort of vengeance that you and I would generally prefer. Not without Sora's personality being ripped apart and transformed into some sort of antihero vigilante, at least. I honestly find it refreshing that the author didn't pull that sort of thing, because it would then be too similar to many other stories that I've read.
I understand that you're mad about how Shitsurakuen ended and that you're passionate about the subject, but I'm getting the impression that you're partially taking it out on me.
Also, I nearly missed that you responded to my last post, because you lumped our chat with another conversation. If you wish to continue talking with me, would you kindly keep our discussion separate?

Shitsurakuen is the first and only yuri manga I've read, though it's a bit of an enigma when it comes the genre it fits under. It technically fits under the genres of: action, fantasy, harem, shoujoai, and shounen. I personally consider it to be rather comedic, too. I adore it, especially since it's fairly dark and messes with my head. Several details of the ending surprised me, as well. Shitsurakuen is one series that a person should finish before passing judgement. Trust me.

The ending of this manga was terrible. I don't recommend it.

Meh. I don't see how the ending is terrible, but whatever.

The girls were treated like dogs by the despicable guys for 4/5 of the manga's run! From emotional and physical abuse to sexual harassment. Most of them doing it just for the hell of it, others believing females were below them and thus should be treated like such! And in the end the girls that were physically and emotional abused on a daily just freaking forgive their abusers without a second thought and even start dating them! After making you hate the guys so much how can you not find the idea of these girls just letting "bygones be bygones" and pairing up with these scum repulsive!? The ending was a blatant display of Stockholm Syndrome! Even the Japanese readers lashed out and the author had to write another chapter changing the ending slightly. Only slightly, because even in that ending the girls were paired with the guys. By the end of this manga all the Yuri elements were destroyed. Even the main character was paired up with a guy instead of the girl she was in love with for the entire manga.

I really see no point in getting so emotional over a manga, series (TV or novel), or movie. I have not read it yet, but there are many stories that I have found distasteful in a Manga or Anime release, but I do not call for the creator to change it. If it gives you emotion, then it should not be changed since that is a writer's main duty, which is to get people into the emotion of watching and/or reading something with personal reaction.

You're contradicting yourself. First you say you don't understand the reason to get so emotional over fiction then you go on to say a writer's main duty is to invoke emotion.

We are supposed to feel the emotions the writer is trying to portray in his work. That is the purpose or art. That has been the reason for admiring art for millenniums. Saying you don't understand a person getting emotional over art is like saying you don't understand the purpose of the art to begin with. That's an insult to the artist in it's own right.

If a piece of literature or art is distasteful, offensive and/or outright repulsive it should be changed. That's just common sense.

DonMoriartywrote:I see a lot of underground manga/anime that have it where a guy often rapes the girl, unemotional toward her, or has never met until the end of the series. Then during the last chapter or two they wind up with their captors, or the guy who basically spat at her, or even the guy she never seen till then. I do not expect them to change the outcome just to suit my needs. It is just a story within the writer's imagination, so be civilized and let the artists work.

You're the exact opposite of the kinds of readers a good writer appreciate. A good writer appreciates an audience that thinks and critiques his work. A writer appreciates an audience that recognizes his talents, the way he thinks, the emotions he demonstrates. People with your mind sets are the type to swallow whatever crap is pushed your way. Critical thinking is one of the fundamental traits humans need to survive!

DonMoriartywrote:The fact that even in a video game, it meant nothing to me for them to change the ending. It made no difference! Mass Effect 3, is the one I am talking about. If you feel accomplished at changing the artists' works just because you are unhappy, then I feel sorry for you.

You feel sorry for me? A person with no sense of critical thinking is pitying me? A person who can't identify good and bad story writing? That is the most hilariously insulting thing I've heard in quite some time. You seriously don't understand the purpose of a story do you?

DonMoriartywrote:In Kekkaishi, I was so ticked off that they did not explore the powers of that one little girl even more, the one that could see ghosts. I was overly disappointed to where I had a major distaste for it at the end, but it does not mean I want them to change it. Do I care? Yes, but I understand it is their work, not ours.

"It's their work not ours"? I can't believe I'm reading this. An author writes a book for people to enjoy not to be repulsed by it! He isn't writing he book for himself you know! He's writing to satisfy a medium of audience! saying it's his work is a selfish, immature and quite ignorant outlook. If this were the case people would be allowed to write all manner of tripe without being critique for it.

Ok then, so by your reason, let us say Passion of the Christ should have been banned or changed. If a work that has demons in it brings me to tears at how sinful the artists have been, I should call for an immediate change of the stories since Christians find it in bad taste. Dude, a critique and changing the person's artwork are two completely separate issues. At this point you are just talking down to me because I disagree with your logic that every piece of art needs to be changed because it shows rape that offends most mothers or a guy spitting on a girl.

I'm not talking down to you because you disagree with me. I'm talking down to you because propose the asinine reasoning that a persona work should be adored no matter how repulsive or flawed it is. Since you bring up PotC, when have non-religious people found the issues that occur in the Bible acceptable? Non-religious people of all kinds have outwardly condemned biblical stories cruel and repulsive.

DonMoriartywrote:So, if we criticize then we should make it law to change a person's work, just because the select few get offended. Does it change anything for you? Can you say it really makes a difference?

A select few? When you the only people you don't offend are people who think authors are free to write whatever they want and readers should just accept it you know you've done wrong! If a game, movie, book or any type of entertainment medium is widely unappreciated you're damn sure it should be changed! Ask Microsoft.

DonMoriartywrote:I say that you cannot get so emotional to send angry letters at the guy and punishing him for expressing his mind on paper. That is like me wanting them to change South Park to a show like Pokemon or Hamtaro where everyone laughs and there is absolutely nothing to get offended about. Contradiction? No, I was stating my point and you took everything out of the bounds of meaningful context.

The moment you open your work to the public, you open yourself to criticism from the world. People send fan letters, people send criticism, people send hate mail. That's how it is! The author of Shitsurakuen betrayed her fans expectations and they sent negative reviews of her choices and she changed it to appease them! When Microsoft announced the XBox One's features and it was widely discredited resulting in low preorders, they changed it to appease consumers! That's how things go!

What are you talking about changing South Park to Pokemon???? What does that have to do with bad writing?!?! South Park is a satiric show! It's purpose is to exude crude humor, and even this isn't a good example because the only people who are fans of South Park are the ones not offended by it. Which is usually the roughneck average Caucasian salary-man or their teen kids.

DonMoriartywrote:They should change GTA to exclude hookers, pimps, and a poor neighborhood. They should not use curse words or gun violence because it offends me.

You're completely blind to the point at hand aren't you?

DonMoriartywrote:And note, I was not talking down to you, but merely expressing my opinion and not saying that you were the one to pity. I don't know why you were to cross my words like that, but somehow you got confused about what I was saying, Mr. Dictator.

I was cross with you because you outright said you felt sorry for me and structured your whole argument in a passive aggressive way of mocking my reasons. I'm not so touchy as to snap at someone for no reason. You were very condescending.

DonMoriartywrote:Ok, and another thing. That last sentence just made it sound like it isn't his work. Yes, he does it to please a majority of the audience, but you have to realize he does not have to listen to the select few of the audience. I think because he writes it he should do what he wants to do with it. No business of mine to tell him what to do. If you find a distaste for it, force him to write something else. Or, if need be, send him commission.

You keep mentioning this "select few" as if to say a bad piece of art or literature would only be criticized by small few people. This isn't about having issues with certain aspects of a story, it's about to do with the story entirely. You seem like a smart person so I shouldn't have to explain why it's bad writing to have someone abused for 4/5 of a story and then have that person forgive the abuser in the final chapter and live happily ever after. I shouldn't have to explain to you why people won't enjoy an ending like that.

Shitsurakuen is the first and only yuri manga I've read, though it's a bit of an enigma when it comes the genre it fits under. It technically fits under the genres of: action, fantasy, harem, shoujoai, and shounen. I personally consider it to be rather comedic, too. I adore it, especially since it's fairly dark and messes with my head. Several details of the ending surprised me, as well. Shitsurakuen is one series that a person should finish before passing judgement. Trust me.

The ending of this manga was terrible. I don't recommend it.

Meh. I don't see how the ending is terrible, but whatever.

The girls were treated like dogs by the despicable guys for 4/5 of the manga's run! From emotional and physical abuse to sexual harassment. Most of them doing it just for the hell of it, others believing females were below them and thus should be treated like such! And in the end the girls that were physically and emotional abused on a daily just freaking forgive their abusers without a second thought and even start dating them! After making you hate the guys so much how can you not find the idea of these girls just letting "bygones be bygones" and pairing up with these scum repulsive!? The ending was a blatant display of Stockholm Syndrome! Even the Japanese readers lashed out and the author had to write another chapter changing the ending slightly. Only slightly, because even in that ending the girls were paired with the guys. By the end of this manga all the Yuri elements were destroyed. Even the main character was paired up with a guy instead of the girl she was in love with for the entire manga.

---------------------------

Recommended Yuri Mangas

1. Hanjuku Joshi
2. Ebisu-san and Hotei-san
3. Prism Higashiyama Shou
4. Yuri Hime Wildrose. (A massive collection of Yuri manga by many different authors featured in one volume. There are currently 6 volumes of Yuri Hime Wildrose)
5. Girl Friends
6. Kashimashi - Girl Meets Girl
7. Maka Maka
8. Gokujyo: Gokurakuin Joshikōryō Monogatari (Not really Yuri but it takes place in an all girls school and the girls do a lot of pervy yet hilarious stuff. Maybe it could be classified as Shoujo Ai. It's more comedy oriented than story and the art is great. A personal favorite.)

Even the main character was paired up with a guy instead of the girl she was in love with for the entire manga.

aeb0717wrote:What are you talking about? Sora and Koharu got married in the final chapter, and it's even mentioned that Sora obtained Apple and eliminated the male chauvinism in the school. Even before the 24th chapter was added, there was no true indication that Sora became paired with one of the guys. She was indifferent and focused on her first princess the entire time.

Chapter 23 is where the manga ended and Sora and Koharu didn't end up together then. It was implied she ended up with that other guy that helped her. The author then drew another short chapter to appease the fans due to backlash that I mentioned in my post.

aeb0717wrote:I don't find it repulsive, because the guys shown in the last chapter have apparently repent, and one particularly felt guilty about what all he did and had to be talked into attending the wedding (he thought that he didn't deserve to go). The guys have all ceased their previous behavior, and made peace with themselves and the girls. You may call it Stockholm Syndrome all you want, but have you considered that it may actually be everyone (including the guys) simply letting go and acquiring peace? If you wanted a revenge story instead of one about forgiveness, Shitsurakuen wasn't for you in the first place. Early on, the story's emphasis on fairy-tale knights and happy endings should have been a strong indication that you were in store for an unrealistically peaceful finale.

Are you serious? They repented? The treated the females like dogs for 3/4 of the mangas run and then said sorry! That all! Feeling guilty and saying sorry excuses them for sexually harassing and possibily raping the girls on a daily bases? Emotionally and physically abusing them? Letting go and acquiring peace? Do I have to go through every single disgusting thing I saw the boys do to the girls in this manga? It's Stockholm Syndrome no matter how you look at it! No one in their right element would willingly stay with a person that physically, emotionally and sexually abused them on a daily basis! If this manga was a fairy tale the boys would have all been killed and Sora would have brought them all happiness! That would be the fairy tail ending. An ending where the women succumb to Stockholm Syndrome and get together with the people that physically, emotionally and sexually abused them on a daily basis is an incredibly dark ending! This is why the author was forced to add the last chapter. Because she betrayed the expectations of the fans of the manga and ruined what could have been a very likeable series.

Well what you said was that the writers should not be free to write what they want. I don't say you don't have to accept as your opinion, but making them change what they write means little. It's like "this is how it ends" and then "this is how I want it to end". Watch Misery and see how it looks from your perspective. It is like the readers grabbing the writer by the balls and tell them what to write.

Xbox One? So you are comparing an entertainment center with a manga series? There are only two real companies in gaming now besides the PC market (which is vast), so it is considered more of a restricted market. You either choose PS4 or Xbox One. You can also pick up a Wii U, but it is not in the same fight as Sony and Microsoft as it watches from the sidelines. You also have Ouya and GameStick which are not considered part of the console wars just yet.

If you had more of a vast market of consoles in the same ring, I would say go ahead and make your console, I have these other 3 to choose from. Complaints would be far smaller because of the choices. Just like with Win8, Linux, and Apple's OS, which is why Microsoft gets flagged when they make something wrong with their OS.

If there were only 3 authors, I would probably rage about it, but there are hundreds upon millions of such. So, if I dislike it, I might review it poorly or give my critique. It is their choice to change it. If it ends and I want more I will express it, but if it sucks horribly I will not ask them to change the ending to suit my needs, I will just tell them why it sucks. It defeats the purpose of writing a novel if it already has an ending and you "have" to change the ending when it has already been published and sent out.

So, if I publish a book, and it sucks, I must change it by a law that other people set? If it ends, it ends. If you give in to pressure, your choice. If it sucks though and I think of it as the end of that series, then I make another and take in the criticism of what I did wrong.

You bore me by the way.....next? lol

You're taking my words out of context. Each time I mentioned a writer not being able to write whatever he wants I related it to fan appreciation. A writer is free to write whatever he wants so long as it doesn't impact negatively on the audience. Not only would he push himself to failure but also to infamy, losing the adoration of his fans. That's what happens when you have a following. They expect from you and if you don't deliver or deliver badly, you suffer backlash. If a piece of work is written badly it should be rewritten. That doesn't mean, "things don't go your way so change it" it simply means "badly written stories should be rewritten". As long as it is written well, people will appreciate many kinds of endings. So long as it's handled tastefully ofcourse. Not many people will be very welcoming to seeing a character the author has orchestrated for you to absolutely despise get a happily ever after.

Yes, I'm comparing the reaction of the fans of a manga series to the reaction of the possible consumers of the new Xbox. What about that doesn't correlate? And this isn't about the consoles you know? It's about how fans reacted to the system, prompting Microsoft to change in relation to your opinion that a person's work shouldn't be redone if it isn't well appreciated.

I don't understand you're point on the number of authors. The number of authors shouldn't dictate how well or badly the art or medium is question is appreciated. If it's manufactured well, it will be well received. If not you suffer negative feedback, lack of business and then bankruptcy. The ending of a story can make or break it. It's the most important part of the whole novel. If you mess that up, the credit of your writing is decreased substantially, not to mention leaving a sour taste given that the ending will be the last thing left to the readers from that novel.

It's not about giving into pressure. If you publish a book and it sucks, either be courageous and dutiful enough to rewrite it to improve or let if flunk and be famed as a terrible writer. Good luck getting any attention for future projects then. When you produce something for an audience, the audience's expectations are a priority. They're enjoyment and satisfaction will be what brings you fame, adoration and riches. Pridefully disregarding your audience will ultimately lead to downfall.

If I bore you then you must have the most uneventful life, if you have time to debate with a boring person.

Shitsurakuen is the first and only yuri manga I've read, though it's a bit of an enigma when it comes the genre it fits under. It technically fits under the genres of: action, fantasy, harem, shoujoai, and shounen. I personally consider it to be rather comedic, too. I adore it, especially since it's fairly dark and messes with my head. Several details of the ending surprised me, as well. Shitsurakuen is one series that a person should finish before passing judgement. Trust me.

The ending of this manga was terrible. I don't recommend it.

Meh. I don't see how the ending is terrible, but whatever.

The girls were treated like dogs by the despicable guys for 4/5 of the manga's run! From emotional and physical abuse to sexual harassment. Most of them doing it just for the hell of it, others believing females were below them and thus should be treated like such! And in the end the girls that were physically and emotional abused on a daily just freaking forgive their abusers without a second thought and even start dating them! After making you hate the guys so much how can you not find the idea of these girls just letting "bygones be bygones" and pairing up with these scum repulsive!? The ending was a blatant display of Stockholm Syndrome! Even the Japanese readers lashed out and the author had to write another chapter changing the ending slightly. Only slightly, because even in that ending the girls were paired with the guys. By the end of this manga all the Yuri elements were destroyed. Even the main character was paired up with a guy instead of the girl she was in love with for the entire manga.

I really see no point in getting so emotional over a manga, series (TV or novel), or movie. I have not read it yet, but there are many stories that I have found distasteful in a Manga or Anime release, but I do not call for the creator to change it. If it gives you emotion, then it should not be changed since that is a writer's main duty, which is to get people into the emotion of watching and/or reading something with personal reaction.

You're contradicting yourself. First you say you don't understand the reason to get so emotional over fiction then you go on to say a writer's main duty is to invoke emotion.

We are supposed to feel the emotions the writer is trying to portray in his work. That is the purpose or art. That has been the reason for admiring art for millenniums. Saying you don't understand a person getting emotional over art is like saying you don't understand the purpose of the art to begin with. That's an insult to the artist in it's own right.

If a piece of literature or art is distasteful, offensive and/or outright repulsive it should be changed. That's just common sense.

DonMoriartywrote:I see a lot of underground manga/anime that have it where a guy often rapes the girl, unemotional toward her, or has never met until the end of the series. Then during the last chapter or two they wind up with their captors, or the guy who basically spat at her, or even the guy she never seen till then. I do not expect them to change the outcome just to suit my needs. It is just a story within the writer's imagination, so be civilized and let the artists work.

You're the exact opposite of the kinds of readers a good writer appreciate. A good writer appreciates an audience that thinks and critiques his work. A writer appreciates an audience that recognizes his talents, the way he thinks, the emotions he demonstrates. People with your mind sets are the type to swallow whatever crap is pushed your way. Critical thinking is one of the fundamental traits humans need to survive!

DonMoriartywrote:The fact that even in a video game, it meant nothing to me for them to change the ending. It made no difference! Mass Effect 3, is the one I am talking about. If you feel accomplished at changing the artists' works just because you are unhappy, then I feel sorry for you.

You feel sorry for me? A person with no sense of critical thinking is pitying me? A person who can't identify good and bad story writing? That is the most hilariously insulting thing I've heard in quite some time. You seriously don't understand the purpose of a story do you?

DonMoriartywrote:In Kekkaishi, I was so ticked off that they did not explore the powers of that one little girl even more, the one that could see ghosts. I was overly disappointed to where I had a major distaste for it at the end, but it does not mean I want them to change it. Do I care? Yes, but I understand it is their work, not ours.

"It's their work not ours"? I can't believe I'm reading this. An author writes a book for people to enjoy not to be repulsed by it! He isn't writing he book for himself you know! He's writing to satisfy a medium of audience! saying it's his work is a selfish, immature and quite ignorant outlook. If this were the case people would be allowed to write all manner of tripe without being critique for it.

Ok then, so by your reason, let us say Passion of the Christ should have been banned or changed. If a work that has demons in it brings me to tears at how sinful the artists have been, I should call for an immediate change of the stories since Christians find it in bad taste. Dude, a critique and changing the person's artwork are two completely separate issues. At this point you are just talking down to me because I disagree with your logic that every piece of art needs to be changed because it shows rape that offends most mothers or a guy spitting on a girl.

I'm not talking down to you because you disagree with me. I'm talking down to you because propose the asinine reasoning that a persona work should be adored no matter how repulsive or flawed it is. Since you bring up PotC, when have non-religious people found the issues that occur in the Bible acceptable? Non-religious people of all kinds have outwardly condemned biblical stories cruel and repulsive.

DonMoriartywrote:So, if we criticize then we should make it law to change a person's work, just because the select few get offended. Does it change anything for you? Can you say it really makes a difference?

A select few? When you the only people you don't offend are people who think authors are free to write whatever they want and readers should just accept it you know you've done wrong! If a game, movie, book or any type of entertainment medium is widely unappreciated you're damn sure it should be changed! Ask Microsoft.

DonMoriartywrote:I say that you cannot get so emotional to send angry letters at the guy and punishing him for expressing his mind on paper. That is like me wanting them to change South Park to a show like Pokemon or Hamtaro where everyone laughs and there is absolutely nothing to get offended about. Contradiction? No, I was stating my point and you took everything out of the bounds of meaningful context.

The moment you open your work to the public, you open yourself to criticism from the world. People send fan letters, people send criticism, people send hate mail. That's how it is! The author of Shitsurakuen betrayed her fans expectations and they sent negative reviews of her choices and she changed it to appease them! When Microsoft announced the XBox One's features and it was widely discredited resulting in low preorders, they changed it to appease consumers! That's how things go!

What are you talking about changing South Park to Pokemon???? What does that have to do with bad writing?!?! South Park is a satiric show! It's purpose is to exude crude humor, and even this isn't a good example because the only people who are fans of South Park are the ones not offended by it. Which is usually the roughneck average Caucasian salary-man or their teen kids.

DonMoriartywrote:They should change GTA to exclude hookers, pimps, and a poor neighborhood. They should not use curse words or gun violence because it offends me.

You're completely blind to the point at hand aren't you?

DonMoriartywrote:And note, I was not talking down to you, but merely expressing my opinion and not saying that you were the one to pity. I don't know why you were to cross my words like that, but somehow you got confused about what I was saying, Mr. Dictator.

I was cross with you because you outright said you felt sorry for me and structured your whole argument in a passive aggressive way of mocking my reasons. I'm not so touchy as to snap at someone for no reason. You were very condescending.

DonMoriartywrote:Ok, and another thing. That last sentence just made it sound like it isn't his work. Yes, he does it to please a majority of the audience, but you have to realize he does not have to listen to the select few of the audience. I think because he writes it he should do what he wants to do with it. No business of mine to tell him what to do. If you find a distaste for it, force him to write something else. Or, if need be, send him commission.

You keep mentioning this "select few" as if to say a bad piece of art or literature would only be criticized by small few people. This isn't about having issues with certain aspects of a story, it's about to do with the story entirely. You seem like a smart person so I shouldn't have to explain why it's bad writing to have someone abused for 4/5 of a story and then have that person forgive the abuser in the final chapter and live happily ever after. I shouldn't have to explain to you why people won't enjoy an ending like that.

aeb0717wrote:What are you talking about? Sora and Koharu got married in the final chapter, and it's even mentioned that Sora obtained Apple and eliminated the male chauvinism in the school. Even before the 24th chapter was added, there was no true indication that Sora became paired with one of the guys. She was indifferent and focused on her first princess the entire time.

Chapter 23 is where the manga ended and Sora and Koharu didn't end up together then. It was implied she ended up with that other guy that helped her. The author then drew another short chapter to appease the fans due to backlash that I mentioned in my post.

aeb0717wrote:I don't find it repulsive, because the guys shown in the last chapter have apparently repent, and one particularly felt guilty about what all he did and had to be talked into attending the wedding (he thought that he didn't deserve to go). The guys have all ceased their previous behavior, and made peace with themselves and the girls. You may call it Stockholm Syndrome all you want, but have you considered that it may actually be everyone (including the guys) simply letting go and acquiring peace? If you wanted a revenge story instead of one about forgiveness, Shitsurakuen wasn't for you in the first place. Early on, the story's emphasis on fairy-tale knights and happy endings should have been a strong indication that you were in store for an unrealistically peaceful finale.

Oh, come on! They repented? The treated the females like dogs for 4/5 of the manga's run and then said sorry near the end! That all! Feeling guilty and saying sorry excuses them for sexually harassing and possibly raping the girls on a daily bases? They didn't know it was wrong to do that? Letting go and acquiring peace? Do I have to go through every single disgusting thing I saw the boys do to the girls in this manga to make you see just how terrible the ending is? It's Stockholm Syndrome no matter how you look at it! No one in their right element would willingly stay with a person that physically, emotionally and sexually abused them on a daily basis for how many years they've been at that school! If this manga was a fairy tale the boys would have all been killed and Sora would have brought the girls all happiness herself! That would be the fairy tale ending. An ending where the women succumb to Stockholm Syndrome and get together with the people that physically, emotionally and sexually abused them on a daily basis for months - years could be perceived as an incredibly dark ending if intended! This was no fairy tale ending, it was a repulsive half-assed attempt at a wrap up because clearly the author didn't know how what to do with the scum]bag boys at the end. This is why the author was forced to add the last chapter. Because she betrayed the expectations of the fans of the manga and ruined what could have been a very likeable series.

I'm fully aware of what went on in the series. I read the series within the last few days and I caught the 24th chapter earlier today, so please don't repeatedly feed me your overview of events. Also, I never said that the ending is like that of a fairy tail, and your perception of how a fairy tale version of this would end is speculation at best. I merely meant that the ending is fairly "fluffy" by lacking violent retribution against the males. I don't agree with you on the quality of the ending and the Stockholm Syndrome bit, and you're not about to change my mind. Don't get me wrong, because I did spend a good bit of time wanting to pound the heads in of alot of the boys; however, I have no problem accepting how it ended, because I expected something similar about halfway through. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't see Sora condoning the sort of vengeance that you and I would generally prefer. Not without Sora's personality being ripped apart and transformed into some sort of antihero vigilante, at least. I honestly find it refreshing that the author didn't pull that sort of thing, because it would then be too similar to many other stories that I've read.
I understand that you're mad about how Shitsurakuen ended and that you're passionate about the subject, but I'm getting the impression that you're partially taking it out on me.
Also, I nearly missed that you responded to my last post, because you lumped our chat with another conversation. If you wish to continue talking with me, would you kindly keep our discussion separate?

So if you and I read the manga, why do I have to explain to you why it's bad that they forgave them as though they had a minor bicker when they were abused for most of the manga? You certainly did say the ending was fairy tale-like. Or was that a sarcastic remark following the "fairy tail" typo I made? Anyway, yes I made an assumption on how the manga would be if it were really a fairy tale but that's an assumption based on how fairy tale stories truly are, plus it's fairly obvious it would be an assumption given that it doesn't exist so I don't see the point you were trying to make there. You must have some good hindsight because I sure as hell didn't expect the victims to be paired up with the abusers. And I think I can say the same for all the other fans who were displeased with the ending. I know if I saw that coming I'd have quite the manga then and there. You might be ok with the ending but clearly you're on the minority. It's most likely not intentional but the ending gave off some serious Stockholm Syndrome vibe, and if you can't see that then fine but as I said before, the author received quite a bit of backlash from Shitsurakuen fans. Enough so to prompt her to write chapter 24. Sora's personality doesn't need to stay the same all through. It's actually a good thing for her to change for the sake of character growth.

I was indeed upset about the ending of Shitsurakuen but I'm not taking it out on you at all. I don't even know you, and I read that manga at least a year and a half ago. You wrote something I didn't agree with so I responded, you replied back and from there it escalated into a debate. That's just how things tend to go on forums. Remember I only replied to you saying the ending was terrible so I don't recommend it. No more, no less. It's something I and many people didn't enjoy due to the ending, so I made the OP aware.

Shitsurakuen is the first and only yuri manga I've read, though it's a bit of an enigma when it comes the genre it fits under. It technically fits under the genres of: action, fantasy, harem, shoujoai, and shounen. I personally consider it to be rather comedic, too. I adore it, especially since it's fairly dark and messes with my head. Several details of the ending surprised me, as well. Shitsurakuen is one series that a person should finish before passing judgement. Trust me.

The ending of this manga was terrible. I don't recommend it.

Meh. I don't see how the ending is terrible, but whatever.

The girls were treated like dogs by the despicable guys for 4/5 of the manga's run! From emotional and physical abuse to sexual harassment. Most of them doing it just for the hell of it, others believing females were below them and thus should be treated like such! And in the end the girls that were physically and emotional abused on a daily just freaking forgive their abusers without a second thought and even start dating them! After making you hate the guys so much how can you not find the idea of these girls just letting "bygones be bygones" and pairing up with these scum repulsive!? The ending was a blatant display of Stockholm Syndrome! Even the Japanese readers lashed out and the author had to write another chapter changing the ending slightly. Only slightly, because even in that ending the girls were paired with the guys. By the end of this manga all the Yuri elements were destroyed. Even the main character was paired up with a guy instead of the girl she was in love with for the entire manga.

I really see no point in getting so emotional over a manga, series (TV or novel), or movie. I have not read it yet, but there are many stories that I have found distasteful in a Manga or Anime release, but I do not call for the creator to change it. If it gives you emotion, then it should not be changed since that is a writer's main duty, which is to get people into the emotion of watching and/or reading something with personal reaction.

You're contradicting yourself. First you say you don't understand the reason to get so emotional over fiction then you go on to say a writer's main duty is to invoke emotion.

We are supposed to feel the emotions the writer is trying to portray in his work. That is the purpose or art. That has been the reason for admiring art for millenniums. Saying you don't understand a person getting emotional over art is like saying you don't understand the purpose of the art to begin with. That's an insult to the artist in it's own right.

If a piece of literature or art is distasteful, offensive and/or outright repulsive it should be changed. That's just common sense.

DonMoriartywrote:I see a lot of underground manga/anime that have it where a guy often rapes the girl, unemotional toward her, or has never met until the end of the series. Then during the last chapter or two they wind up with their captors, or the guy who basically spat at her, or even the guy she never seen till then. I do not expect them to change the outcome just to suit my needs. It is just a story within the writer's imagination, so be civilized and let the artists work.

You're the exact opposite of the kinds of readers a good writer appreciate. A good writer appreciates an audience that thinks and critiques his work. A writer appreciates an audience that recognizes his talents, the way he thinks, the emotions he demonstrates. People with your mind sets are the type to swallow whatever crap is pushed your way. Critical thinking is one of the fundamental traits humans need to survive!

DonMoriartywrote:The fact that even in a video game, it meant nothing to me for them to change the ending. It made no difference! Mass Effect 3, is the one I am talking about. If you feel accomplished at changing the artists' works just because you are unhappy, then I feel sorry for you.

You feel sorry for me? A person with no sense of critical thinking is pitying me? A person who can't identify good and bad story writing? That is the most hilariously insulting thing I've heard in quite some time. You seriously don't understand the purpose of a story do you?

DonMoriartywrote:In Kekkaishi, I was so ticked off that they did not explore the powers of that one little girl even more, the one that could see ghosts. I was overly disappointed to where I had a major distaste for it at the end, but it does not mean I want them to change it. Do I care? Yes, but I understand it is their work, not ours.

"It's their work not ours"? I can't believe I'm reading this. An author writes a book for people to enjoy not to be repulsed by it! He isn't writing he book for himself you know! He's writing to satisfy a medium of audience! saying it's his work is a selfish, immature and quite ignorant outlook. If this were the case people would be allowed to write all manner of tripe without being critique for it.

Ok then, so by your reason, let us say Passion of the Christ should have been banned or changed. If a work that has demons in it brings me to tears at how sinful the artists have been, I should call for an immediate change of the stories since Christians find it in bad taste. Dude, a critique and changing the person's artwork are two completely separate issues. At this point you are just talking down to me because I disagree with your logic that every piece of art needs to be changed because it shows rape that offends most mothers or a guy spitting on a girl.

I'm not talking down to you because you disagree with me. I'm talking down to you because propose the asinine reasoning that a persona work should be adored no matter how repulsive or flawed it is. Since you bring up PotC, when have non-religious people found the issues that occur in the Bible acceptable? Non-religious people of all kinds have outwardly condemned biblical stories cruel and repulsive.

DonMoriartywrote:So, if we criticize then we should make it law to change a person's work, just because the select few get offended. Does it change anything for you? Can you say it really makes a difference?

A select few? When you the only people you don't offend are people who think authors are free to write whatever they want and readers should just accept it you know you've done wrong! If a game, movie, book or any type of entertainment medium is widely unappreciated you're damn sure it should be changed! Ask Microsoft.

DonMoriartywrote:I say that you cannot get so emotional to send angry letters at the guy and punishing him for expressing his mind on paper. That is like me wanting them to change South Park to a show like Pokemon or Hamtaro where everyone laughs and there is absolutely nothing to get offended about. Contradiction? No, I was stating my point and you took everything out of the bounds of meaningful context.

The moment you open your work to the public, you open yourself to criticism from the world. People send fan letters, people send criticism, people send hate mail. That's how it is! The author of Shitsurakuen betrayed her fans expectations and they sent negative reviews of her choices and she changed it to appease them! When Microsoft announced the XBox One's features and it was widely discredited resulting in low preorders, they changed it to appease consumers! That's how things go!

What are you talking about changing South Park to Pokemon???? What does that have to do with bad writing?!?! South Park is a satiric show! It's purpose is to exude crude humor, and even this isn't a good example because the only people who are fans of South Park are the ones not offended by it. Which is usually the roughneck average Caucasian salary-man or their teen kids.

DonMoriartywrote:They should change GTA to exclude hookers, pimps, and a poor neighborhood. They should not use curse words or gun violence because it offends me.

You're completely blind to the point at hand aren't you?

DonMoriartywrote:And note, I was not talking down to you, but merely expressing my opinion and not saying that you were the one to pity. I don't know why you were to cross my words like that, but somehow you got confused about what I was saying, Mr. Dictator.

I was cross with you because you outright said you felt sorry for me and structured your whole argument in a passive aggressive way of mocking my reasons. I'm not so touchy as to snap at someone for no reason. You were very condescending.

DonMoriartywrote:Ok, and another thing. That last sentence just made it sound like it isn't his work. Yes, he does it to please a majority of the audience, but you have to realize he does not have to listen to the select few of the audience. I think because he writes it he should do what he wants to do with it. No business of mine to tell him what to do. If you find a distaste for it, force him to write something else. Or, if need be, send him commission.

You keep mentioning this "select few" as if to say a bad piece of art or literature would only be criticized by small few people. This isn't about having issues with certain aspects of a story, it's about to do with the story entirely. You seem like a smart person so I shouldn't have to explain why it's bad writing to have someone abused for 4/5 of a story and then have that person forgive the abuser in the final chapter and live happily ever after. I shouldn't have to explain to you why people won't enjoy an ending like that.

Shitsurakuen is the first and only yuri manga I've read, though it's a bit of an enigma when it comes the genre it fits under. It technically fits under the genres of: action, fantasy, harem, shoujoai, and shounen. I personally consider it to be rather comedic, too. I adore it, especially since it's fairly dark and messes with my head. Several details of the ending surprised me, as well. Shitsurakuen is one series that a person should finish before passing judgement. Trust me.

The ending of this manga was terrible. I don't recommend it.

Meh. I don't see how the ending is terrible, but whatever.

The girls were treated like dogs by the despicable guys for 4/5 of the manga's run! From emotional and physical abuse to sexual harassment. Most of them doing it just for the hell of it, others believing females were below them and thus should be treated like such! And in the end the girls that were physically and emotional abused on a daily just freaking forgive their abusers without a second thought and even start dating them! After making you hate the guys so much how can you not find the idea of these girls just letting "bygones be bygones" and pairing up with these scum repulsive!? The ending was a blatant display of Stockholm Syndrome! Even the Japanese readers lashed out and the author had to write another chapter changing the ending slightly. Only slightly, because even in that ending the girls were paired with the guys. By the end of this manga all the Yuri elements were destroyed. Even the main character was paired up with a guy instead of the girl she was in love with for the entire manga.

---------------------------

Recommended Yuri Mangas

1. Hanjuku Joshi
2. Ebisu-san and Hotei-san
3. Prism Higashiyama Shou
4. Yuri Hime Wildrose. (A massive collection of Yuri manga by many different authors featured in one volume. There are currently 6 volumes of Yuri Hime Wildrose)
5. Girl Friends
6. Kashimashi - Girl Meets Girl
7. Maka Maka
8. Gokujyo: Gokurakuin Joshikōryō Monogatari (Not really Yuri but it takes place in an all girls school and the girls do a lot of pervy yet hilarious stuff. Maybe it could be classified as Shoujo Ai. It's more comedy oriented than story and the art is great. A personal favorite.)

Even the main character was paired up with a guy instead of the girl she was in love with for the entire manga.

aeb0717wrote:What are you talking about? Sora and Koharu got married in the final chapter, and it's even mentioned that Sora obtained Apple and eliminated the male chauvinism in the school. Even before the 24th chapter was added, there was no true indication that Sora became paired with one of the guys. She was indifferent and focused on her first princess the entire time.

Chapter 23 is where the manga ended and Sora and Koharu didn't end up together then. It was implied she ended up with that other guy that helped her. The author then drew another short chapter to appease the fans due to backlash that I mentioned in my post.

aeb0717wrote:I don't find it repulsive, because the guys shown in the last chapter have apparently repent, and one particularly felt guilty about what all he did and had to be talked into attending the wedding (he thought that he didn't deserve to go). The guys have all ceased their previous behavior, and made peace with themselves and the girls. You may call it Stockholm Syndrome all you want, but have you considered that it may actually be everyone (including the guys) simply letting go and acquiring peace? If you wanted a revenge story instead of one about forgiveness, Shitsurakuen wasn't for you in the first place. Early on, the story's emphasis on fairy-tale knights and happy endings should have been a strong indication that you were in store for an unrealistically peaceful finale.

Are you serious? They repented? The treated the females like dogs for 3/4 of the mangas run and then said sorry! That all! Feeling guilty and saying sorry excuses them for sexually harassing and possibily raping the girls on a daily bases? Emotionally and physically abusing them? Letting go and acquiring peace? Do I have to go through every single disgusting thing I saw the boys do to the girls in this manga? It's Stockholm Syndrome no matter how you look at it! No one in their right element would willingly stay with a person that physically, emotionally and sexually abused them on a daily basis! If this manga was a fairy tale the boys would have all been killed and Sora would have brought them all happiness! That would be the fairy tail ending. An ending where the women succumb to Stockholm Syndrome and get together with the people that physically, emotionally and sexually abused them on a daily basis is an incredibly dark ending! This is why the author was forced to add the last chapter. Because she betrayed the expectations of the fans of the manga and ruined what could have been a very likeable series.

Well what you said was that the writers should not be free to write what they want. I don't say you don't have to accept as your opinion, but making them change what they write means little. It's like "this is how it ends" and then "this is how I want it to end". Watch Misery and see how it looks from your perspective. It is like the readers grabbing the writer by the balls and tell them what to write.

Xbox One? So you are comparing an entertainment center with a manga series? There are only two real companies in gaming now besides the PC market (which is vast), so it is considered more of a restricted market. You either choose PS4 or Xbox One. You can also pick up a Wii U, but it is not in the same fight as Sony and Microsoft as it watches from the sidelines. You also have Ouya and GameStick which are not considered part of the console wars just yet.

If you had more of a vast market of consoles in the same ring, I would say go ahead and make your console, I have these other 3 to choose from. Complaints would be far smaller because of the choices. Just like with Win8, Linux, and Apple's OS, which is why Microsoft gets flagged when they make something wrong with their OS.

If there were only 3 authors, I would probably rage about it, but there are hundreds upon millions of such. So, if I dislike it, I might review it poorly or give my critique. It is their choice to change it. If it ends and I want more I will express it, but if it sucks horribly I will not ask them to change the ending to suit my needs, I will just tell them why it sucks. It defeats the purpose of writing a novel if it already has an ending and you "have" to change the ending when it has already been published and sent out.

So, if I publish a book, and it sucks, I must change it by a law that other people set? If it ends, it ends. If you give in to pressure, your choice. If it sucks though and I think of it as the end of that series, then I make another and take in the criticism of what I did wrong.

You bore me by the way.....next? lol

You're taking my words out of context. Each time I mentioned a writer not being able to write whatever he wants I related it to fan appreciation. A writer is free to write whatever he wants so long as it doesn't impact negatively on the audience. Not only would he push himself to failure but also to infamy, losing the adoration of his fans. That's what happens when you have a following. They expect from you and if you don't deliver or deliver badly, you suffer backlash. If a piece of work is written badly it should be rewritten. That doesn't mean, "things don't go your way so change it" it simply means "badly written stories should be rewritten". As long as it is written well, people will appreciate many kinds of endings. So long as it's handled tastefully ofcourse. Not many people will be very welcoming to seeing a character the author has orchestrated for you to absolutely despise get a happily ever after.

Yes, I'm comparing the reaction of the fans of a manga series to the reaction of the possible consumers of the new Xbox. What about that doesn't correlate? And this isn't about the consoles you know? It's about how fans reacted to the system, prompting Microsoft to change in relation to your opinion that a person's work shouldn't be redone if it isn't well appreciated.

I don't understand you're point on the number of authors. The number of authors shouldn't dictate how well or badly the art or medium is question is appreciated. If it's manufactured well, it will be well received. If not you suffer negative feedback, lack of business and then bankruptcy. The ending of a story can make or break it. It's the most important part of the whole novel. If you mess that up, the credit of your writing is decreased substantially, not to mention leaving a sour taste given that the ending will be the last thing left to the readers from that novel.

It's not about giving into pressure. If you publish a book and it sucks, either be courageous and dutiful enough to rewrite it to improve or let if flunk and be famed as a terrible writer. Good luck getting any attention for future projects then. When you produce something for an audience, the audience's expectations are a priority. They're enjoyment and satisfaction will be what brings you fame, adoration and riches. Pridefully disregarding your audience will ultimately lead to downfall.

If I bore you then you must have the most uneventful life, if you have time to debate with a boring person.

Shitsurakuen is the first and only yuri manga I've read, though it's a bit of an enigma when it comes the genre it fits under. It technically fits under the genres of: action, fantasy, harem, shoujoai, and shounen. I personally consider it to be rather comedic, too. I adore it, especially since it's fairly dark and messes with my head. Several details of the ending surprised me, as well. Shitsurakuen is one series that a person should finish before passing judgement. Trust me.

The ending of this manga was terrible. I don't recommend it.

Meh. I don't see how the ending is terrible, but whatever.

The girls were treated like dogs by the despicable guys for 4/5 of the manga's run! From emotional and physical abuse to sexual harassment. Most of them doing it just for the hell of it, others believing females were below them and thus should be treated like such! And in the end the girls that were physically and emotional abused on a daily just freaking forgive their abusers without a second thought and even start dating them! After making you hate the guys so much how can you not find the idea of these girls just letting "bygones be bygones" and pairing up with these scum repulsive!? The ending was a blatant display of Stockholm Syndrome! Even the Japanese readers lashed out and the author had to write another chapter changing the ending slightly. Only slightly, because even in that ending the girls were paired with the guys. By the end of this manga all the Yuri elements were destroyed. Even the main character was paired up with a guy instead of the girl she was in love with for the entire manga.

I really see no point in getting so emotional over a manga, series (TV or novel), or movie. I have not read it yet, but there are many stories that I have found distasteful in a Manga or Anime release, but I do not call for the creator to change it. If it gives you emotion, then it should not be changed since that is a writer's main duty, which is to get people into the emotion of watching and/or reading something with personal reaction.

You're contradicting yourself. First you say you don't understand the reason to get so emotional over fiction then you go on to say a writer's main duty is to invoke emotion.

We are supposed to feel the emotions the writer is trying to portray in his work. That is the purpose or art. That has been the reason for admiring art for millenniums. Saying you don't understand a person getting emotional over art is like saying you don't understand the purpose of the art to begin with. That's an insult to the artist in it's own right.

If a piece of literature or art is distasteful, offensive and/or outright repulsive it should be changed. That's just common sense.

DonMoriartywrote:I see a lot of underground manga/anime that have it where a guy often rapes the girl, unemotional toward her, or has never met until the end of the series. Then during the last chapter or two they wind up with their captors, or the guy who basically spat at her, or even the guy she never seen till then. I do not expect them to change the outcome just to suit my needs. It is just a story within the writer's imagination, so be civilized and let the artists work.

You're the exact opposite of the kinds of readers a good writer appreciate. A good writer appreciates an audience that thinks and critiques his work. A writer appreciates an audience that recognizes his talents, the way he thinks, the emotions he demonstrates. People with your mind sets are the type to swallow whatever crap is pushed your way. Critical thinking is one of the fundamental traits humans need to survive!

DonMoriartywrote:The fact that even in a video game, it meant nothing to me for them to change the ending. It made no difference! Mass Effect 3, is the one I am talking about. If you feel accomplished at changing the artists' works just because you are unhappy, then I feel sorry for you.

You feel sorry for me? A person with no sense of critical thinking is pitying me? A person who can't identify good and bad story writing? That is the most hilariously insulting thing I've heard in quite some time. You seriously don't understand the purpose of a story do you?

DonMoriartywrote:In Kekkaishi, I was so ticked off that they did not explore the powers of that one little girl even more, the one that could see ghosts. I was overly disappointed to where I had a major distaste for it at the end, but it does not mean I want them to change it. Do I care? Yes, but I understand it is their work, not ours.

"It's their work not ours"? I can't believe I'm reading this. An author writes a book for people to enjoy not to be repulsed by it! He isn't writing he book for himself you know! He's writing to satisfy a medium of audience! saying it's his work is a selfish, immature and quite ignorant outlook. If this were the case people would be allowed to write all manner of tripe without being critique for it.

Ok then, so by your reason, let us say Passion of the Christ should have been banned or changed. If a work that has demons in it brings me to tears at how sinful the artists have been, I should call for an immediate change of the stories since Christians find it in bad taste. Dude, a critique and changing the person's artwork are two completely separate issues. At this point you are just talking down to me because I disagree with your logic that every piece of art needs to be changed because it shows rape that offends most mothers or a guy spitting on a girl.

I'm not talking down to you because you disagree with me. I'm talking down to you because propose the asinine reasoning that a persona work should be adored no matter how repulsive or flawed it is. Since you bring up PotC, when have non-religious people found the issues that occur in the Bible acceptable? Non-religious people of all kinds have outwardly condemned biblical stories cruel and repulsive.

DonMoriartywrote:So, if we criticize then we should make it law to change a person's work, just because the select few get offended. Does it change anything for you? Can you say it really makes a difference?

A select few? When you the only people you don't offend are people who think authors are free to write whatever they want and readers should just accept it you know you've done wrong! If a game, movie, book or any type of entertainment medium is widely unappreciated you're damn sure it should be changed! Ask Microsoft.

DonMoriartywrote:I say that you cannot get so emotional to send angry letters at the guy and punishing him for expressing his mind on paper. That is like me wanting them to change South Park to a show like Pokemon or Hamtaro where everyone laughs and there is absolutely nothing to get offended about. Contradiction? No, I was stating my point and you took everything out of the bounds of meaningful context.

The moment you open your work to the public, you open yourself to criticism from the world. People send fan letters, people send criticism, people send hate mail. That's how it is! The author of Shitsurakuen betrayed her fans expectations and they sent negative reviews of her choices and she changed it to appease them! When Microsoft announced the XBox One's features and it was widely discredited resulting in low preorders, they changed it to appease consumers! That's how things go!

What are you talking about changing South Park to Pokemon???? What does that have to do with bad writing?!?! South Park is a satiric show! It's purpose is to exude crude humor, and even this isn't a good example because the only people who are fans of South Park are the ones not offended by it. Which is usually the roughneck average Caucasian salary-man or their teen kids.

DonMoriartywrote:They should change GTA to exclude hookers, pimps, and a poor neighborhood. They should not use curse words or gun violence because it offends me.

You're completely blind to the point at hand aren't you?

DonMoriartywrote:And note, I was not talking down to you, but merely expressing my opinion and not saying that you were the one to pity. I don't know why you were to cross my words like that, but somehow you got confused about what I was saying, Mr. Dictator.

I was cross with you because you outright said you felt sorry for me and structured your whole argument in a passive aggressive way of mocking my reasons. I'm not so touchy as to snap at someone for no reason. You were very condescending.

DonMoriartywrote:Ok, and another thing. That last sentence just made it sound like it isn't his work. Yes, he does it to please a majority of the audience, but you have to realize he does not have to listen to the select few of the audience. I think because he writes it he should do what he wants to do with it. No business of mine to tell him what to do. If you find a distaste for it, force him to write something else. Or, if need be, send him commission.

You keep mentioning this "select few" as if to say a bad piece of art or literature would only be criticized by small few people. This isn't about having issues with certain aspects of a story, it's about to do with the story entirely. You seem like a smart person so I shouldn't have to explain why it's bad writing to have someone abused for 4/5 of a story and then have that person forgive the abuser in the final chapter and live happily ever after. I shouldn't have to explain to you why people won't enjoy an ending like that.

aeb0717wrote:What are you talking about? Sora and Koharu got married in the final chapter, and it's even mentioned that Sora obtained Apple and eliminated the male chauvinism in the school. Even before the 24th chapter was added, there was no true indication that Sora became paired with one of the guys. She was indifferent and focused on her first princess the entire time.

Chapter 23 is where the manga ended and Sora and Koharu didn't end up together then. It was implied she ended up with that other guy that helped her. The author then drew another short chapter to appease the fans due to backlash that I mentioned in my post.

aeb0717wrote:I don't find it repulsive, because the guys shown in the last chapter have apparently repent, and one particularly felt guilty about what all he did and had to be talked into attending the wedding (he thought that he didn't deserve to go). The guys have all ceased their previous behavior, and made peace with themselves and the girls. You may call it Stockholm Syndrome all you want, but have you considered that it may actually be everyone (including the guys) simply letting go and acquiring peace? If you wanted a revenge story instead of one about forgiveness, Shitsurakuen wasn't for you in the first place. Early on, the story's emphasis on fairy-tale knights and happy endings should have been a strong indication that you were in store for an unrealistically peaceful finale.

Oh, come on! They repented? The treated the females like dogs for 4/5 of the manga's run and then said sorry near the end! That all! Feeling guilty and saying sorry excuses them for sexually harassing and possibly raping the girls on a daily bases? They didn't know it was wrong to do that? Letting go and acquiring peace? Do I have to go through every single disgusting thing I saw the boys do to the girls in this manga to make you see just how terrible the ending is? It's Stockholm Syndrome no matter how you look at it! No one in their right element would willingly stay with a person that physically, emotionally and sexually abused them on a daily basis for how many years they've been at that school! If this manga was a fairy tale the boys would have all been killed and Sora would have brought the girls all happiness herself! That would be the fairy tale ending. An ending where the women succumb to Stockholm Syndrome and get together with the people that physically, emotionally and sexually abused them on a daily basis for months - years could be perceived as an incredibly dark ending if intended! This was no fairy tale ending, it was a repulsive half-assed attempt at a wrap up because clearly the author didn't know how what to do with the scum]bag boys at the end. This is why the author was forced to add the last chapter. Because she betrayed the expectations of the fans of the manga and ruined what could have been a very likeable series.

I'm fully aware of what went on in the series. I read the series within the last few days and I caught the 24th chapter earlier today, so please don't repeatedly feed me your overview of events. Also, I never said that the ending is like that of a fairy tail, and your perception of how a fairy tale version of this would end is speculation at best. I merely meant that the ending is fairly "fluffy" by lacking violent retribution against the males. I don't agree with you on the quality of the ending and the Stockholm Syndrome bit, and you're not about to change my mind. Don't get me wrong, because I did spend a good bit of time wanting to pound the heads in of alot of the boys; however, I have no problem accepting how it ended, because I expected something similar about halfway through. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't see Sora condoning the sort of vengeance that you and I would generally prefer. Not without Sora's personality being ripped apart and transformed into some sort of antihero vigilante, at least. I honestly find it refreshing that the author didn't pull that sort of thing, because it would then be too similar to many other stories that I've read.
I understand that you're mad about how Shitsurakuen ended and that you're passionate about the subject, but I'm getting the impression that you're partially taking it out on me.
Also, I nearly missed that you responded to my last post, because you lumped our chat with another conversation. If you wish to continue talking with me, would you kindly keep our discussion separate?

So if you and I read the manga, why do I have to explain to you why it's bad that they forgave them as though they had a minor bicker when they were abused for most of the manga? You certainly did say the ending was fairy tale-like. Or was that a sarcastic remark following the "fairy tail" typo I made? Anyway, yes I made an assumption on how the manga would be if it were really a fairy tale but that's an assumption based on how fairy tale stories truly are, plus it's fairly obvious it would be an assumption given that it doesn't exist so I don't see the point you were trying to make there. You must have some good hindsight because I sure as hell didn't expect the victims to be paired up with the abusers. And I think I can say the same for all the other fans who were displeased with the ending. I know if I saw that coming I'd have quite the manga then and there. You might be ok with the ending but clearly you're on the minority. It's most likely not intentional but the ending gave off some serious Stockholm Syndrome vibe, and if you can't see that then fine but as I said before, the author received quite a bit of backlash from Shitsurakuen fans. Enough so to prompt her to write chapter 24. Sora's personality doesn't need to stay the same all through. It's actually a good thing for her to change for the sake of character growth.

I was indeed upset about the ending of Shitsurakuen but I'm not taking it out on you at all. I don't even know you, and I read that manga at least a year and a half ago. You wrote something I didn't agree with so I responded, you replied back and from there it escalated into a debate. That's just how things tend to go on forums. Remember I only replied to you saying the ending was terrible so I don't recommend it. No more, no less. It's something I and many people didn't enjoy due to the ending, so I made the OP aware.

By your debate then, it is concluded that Bleach, Naruto, and Death Note should all be rewritten manga because they impacted me in a negative way - I did not like them.

I did not say it was not the author's will to make an impression on the audience, but duty? That is like slave labor lol. I think of one person same as the other, if they do not want to then they do not have to change the ending of any of their stories.

I also have not attacked you directly thus far, only defend my opinion. I have not attacked you, but yet you keep attacking me lol. I do not stand idle, and only defend myself when needed.

The only real conclusion I can come up with from this debating is that you liked it all the way up until the ending. Which of course seems a lot of people didn't like, but I would not do what that girl in Misery did when she told the guy to rewrite the script. To me, it makes no difference because it has already happened, and the ending was essentially finalized.

Shitsurakuen is the first and only yuri manga I've read, though it's a bit of an enigma when it comes the genre it fits under. It technically fits under the genres of: action, fantasy, harem, shoujoai, and shounen. I personally consider it to be rather comedic, too. I adore it, especially since it's fairly dark and messes with my head. Several details of the ending surprised me, as well. Shitsurakuen is one series that a person should finish before passing judgement. Trust me.

The ending of this manga was terrible. I don't recommend it.

Meh. I don't see how the ending is terrible, but whatever.

The girls were treated like dogs by the despicable guys for 4/5 of the manga's run! From emotional and physical abuse to sexual harassment. Most of them doing it just for the hell of it, others believing females were below them and thus should be treated like such! And in the end the girls that were physically and emotional abused on a daily just freaking forgive their abusers without a second thought and even start dating them! After making you hate the guys so much how can you not find the idea of these girls just letting "bygones be bygones" and pairing up with these scum repulsive!? The ending was a blatant display of Stockholm Syndrome! Even the Japanese readers lashed out and the author had to write another chapter changing the ending slightly. Only slightly, because even in that ending the girls were paired with the guys. By the end of this manga all the Yuri elements were destroyed. Even the main character was paired up with a guy instead of the girl she was in love with for the entire manga.

I really see no point in getting so emotional over a manga, series (TV or novel), or movie. I have not read it yet, but there are many stories that I have found distasteful in a Manga or Anime release, but I do not call for the creator to change it. If it gives you emotion, then it should not be changed since that is a writer's main duty, which is to get people into the emotion of watching and/or reading something with personal reaction.

You're contradicting yourself. First you say you don't understand the reason to get so emotional over fiction then you go on to say a writer's main duty is to invoke emotion.

We are supposed to feel the emotions the writer is trying to portray in his work. That is the purpose or art. That has been the reason for admiring art for millenniums. Saying you don't understand a person getting emotional over art is like saying you don't understand the purpose of the art to begin with. That's an insult to the artist in it's own right.

If a piece of literature or art is distasteful, offensive and/or outright repulsive it should be changed. That's just common sense.

DonMoriartywrote:I see a lot of underground manga/anime that have it where a guy often rapes the girl, unemotional toward her, or has never met until the end of the series. Then during the last chapter or two they wind up with their captors, or the guy who basically spat at her, or even the guy she never seen till then. I do not expect them to change the outcome just to suit my needs. It is just a story within the writer's imagination, so be civilized and let the artists work.

You're the exact opposite of the kinds of readers a good writer appreciate. A good writer appreciates an audience that thinks and critiques his work. A writer appreciates an audience that recognizes his talents, the way he thinks, the emotions he demonstrates. People with your mind sets are the type to swallow whatever crap is pushed your way. Critical thinking is one of the fundamental traits humans need to survive!

DonMoriartywrote:The fact that even in a video game, it meant nothing to me for them to change the ending. It made no difference! Mass Effect 3, is the one I am talking about. If you feel accomplished at changing the artists' works just because you are unhappy, then I feel sorry for you.

You feel sorry for me? A person with no sense of critical thinking is pitying me? A person who can't identify good and bad story writing? That is the most hilariously insulting thing I've heard in quite some time. You seriously don't understand the purpose of a story do you?

DonMoriartywrote:In Kekkaishi, I was so ticked off that they did not explore the powers of that one little girl even more, the one that could see ghosts. I was overly disappointed to where I had a major distaste for it at the end, but it does not mean I want them to change it. Do I care? Yes, but I understand it is their work, not ours.

"It's their work not ours"? I can't believe I'm reading this. An author writes a book for people to enjoy not to be repulsed by it! He isn't writing he book for himself you know! He's writing to satisfy a medium of audience! saying it's his work is a selfish, immature and quite ignorant outlook. If this were the case people would be allowed to write all manner of tripe without being critique for it.

Ok then, so by your reason, let us say Passion of the Christ should have been banned or changed. If a work that has demons in it brings me to tears at how sinful the artists have been, I should call for an immediate change of the stories since Christians find it in bad taste. Dude, a critique and changing the person's artwork are two completely separate issues. At this point you are just talking down to me because I disagree with your logic that every piece of art needs to be changed because it shows rape that offends most mothers or a guy spitting on a girl.

I'm not talking down to you because you disagree with me. I'm talking down to you because propose the asinine reasoning that a persona work should be adored no matter how repulsive or flawed it is. Since you bring up PotC, when have non-religious people found the issues that occur in the Bible acceptable? Non-religious people of all kinds have outwardly condemned biblical stories cruel and repulsive.

DonMoriartywrote:So, if we criticize then we should make it law to change a person's work, just because the select few get offended. Does it change anything for you? Can you say it really makes a difference?

A select few? When you the only people you don't offend are people who think authors are free to write whatever they want and readers should just accept it you know you've done wrong! If a game, movie, book or any type of entertainment medium is widely unappreciated you're damn sure it should be changed! Ask Microsoft.

DonMoriartywrote:I say that you cannot get so emotional to send angry letters at the guy and punishing him for expressing his mind on paper. That is like me wanting them to change South Park to a show like Pokemon or Hamtaro where everyone laughs and there is absolutely nothing to get offended about. Contradiction? No, I was stating my point and you took everything out of the bounds of meaningful context.

The moment you open your work to the public, you open yourself to criticism from the world. People send fan letters, people send criticism, people send hate mail. That's how it is! The author of Shitsurakuen betrayed her fans expectations and they sent negative reviews of her choices and she changed it to appease them! When Microsoft announced the XBox One's features and it was widely discredited resulting in low preorders, they changed it to appease consumers! That's how things go!

What are you talking about changing South Park to Pokemon???? What does that have to do with bad writing?!?! South Park is a satiric show! It's purpose is to exude crude humor, and even this isn't a good example because the only people who are fans of South Park are the ones not offended by it. Which is usually the roughneck average Caucasian salary-man or their teen kids.

DonMoriartywrote:They should change GTA to exclude hookers, pimps, and a poor neighborhood. They should not use curse words or gun violence because it offends me.

You're completely blind to the point at hand aren't you?

DonMoriartywrote:And note, I was not talking down to you, but merely expressing my opinion and not saying that you were the one to pity. I don't know why you were to cross my words like that, but somehow you got confused about what I was saying, Mr. Dictator.

I was cross with you because you outright said you felt sorry for me and structured your whole argument in a passive aggressive way of mocking my reasons. I'm not so touchy as to snap at someone for no reason. You were very condescending.

DonMoriartywrote:Ok, and another thing. That last sentence just made it sound like it isn't his work. Yes, he does it to please a majority of the audience, but you have to realize he does not have to listen to the select few of the audience. I think because he writes it he should do what he wants to do with it. No business of mine to tell him what to do. If you find a distaste for it, force him to write something else. Or, if need be, send him commission.

You keep mentioning this "select few" as if to say a bad piece of art or literature would only be criticized by small few people. This isn't about having issues with certain aspects of a story, it's about to do with the story entirely. You seem like a smart person so I shouldn't have to explain why it's bad writing to have someone abused for 4/5 of a story and then have that person forgive the abuser in the final chapter and live happily ever after. I shouldn't have to explain to you why people won't enjoy an ending like that.

Shitsurakuen is the first and only yuri manga I've read, though it's a bit of an enigma when it comes the genre it fits under. It technically fits under the genres of: action, fantasy, harem, shoujoai, and shounen. I personally consider it to be rather comedic, too. I adore it, especially since it's fairly dark and messes with my head. Several details of the ending surprised me, as well. Shitsurakuen is one series that a person should finish before passing judgement. Trust me.

The ending of this manga was terrible. I don't recommend it.

Meh. I don't see how the ending is terrible, but whatever.

The girls were treated like dogs by the despicable guys for 4/5 of the manga's run! From emotional and physical abuse to sexual harassment. Most of them doing it just for the hell of it, others believing females were below them and thus should be treated like such! And in the end the girls that were physically and emotional abused on a daily just freaking forgive their abusers without a second thought and even start dating them! After making you hate the guys so much how can you not find the idea of these girls just letting "bygones be bygones" and pairing up with these scum repulsive!? The ending was a blatant display of Stockholm Syndrome! Even the Japanese readers lashed out and the author had to write another chapter changing the ending slightly. Only slightly, because even in that ending the girls were paired with the guys. By the end of this manga all the Yuri elements were destroyed. Even the main character was paired up with a guy instead of the girl she was in love with for the entire manga.

---------------------------

Recommended Yuri Mangas

1. Hanjuku Joshi
2. Ebisu-san and Hotei-san
3. Prism Higashiyama Shou
4. Yuri Hime Wildrose. (A massive collection of Yuri manga by many different authors featured in one volume. There are currently 6 volumes of Yuri Hime Wildrose)
5. Girl Friends
6. Kashimashi - Girl Meets Girl
7. Maka Maka
8. Gokujyo: Gokurakuin Joshikōryō Monogatari (Not really Yuri but it takes place in an all girls school and the girls do a lot of pervy yet hilarious stuff. Maybe it could be classified as Shoujo Ai. It's more comedy oriented than story and the art is great. A personal favorite.)

Even the main character was paired up with a guy instead of the girl she was in love with for the entire manga.

aeb0717wrote:What are you talking about? Sora and Koharu got married in the final chapter, and it's even mentioned that Sora obtained Apple and eliminated the male chauvinism in the school. Even before the 24th chapter was added, there was no true indication that Sora became paired with one of the guys. She was indifferent and focused on her first princess the entire time.

Chapter 23 is where the manga ended and Sora and Koharu didn't end up together then. It was implied she ended up with that other guy that helped her. The author then drew another short chapter to appease the fans due to backlash that I mentioned in my post.

aeb0717wrote:I don't find it repulsive, because the guys shown in the last chapter have apparently repent, and one particularly felt guilty about what all he did and had to be talked into attending the wedding (he thought that he didn't deserve to go). The guys have all ceased their previous behavior, and made peace with themselves and the girls. You may call it Stockholm Syndrome all you want, but have you considered that it may actually be everyone (including the guys) simply letting go and acquiring peace? If you wanted a revenge story instead of one about forgiveness, Shitsurakuen wasn't for you in the first place. Early on, the story's emphasis on fairy-tale knights and happy endings should have been a strong indication that you were in store for an unrealistically peaceful finale.

Are you serious? They repented? The treated the females like dogs for 3/4 of the mangas run and then said sorry! That all! Feeling guilty and saying sorry excuses them for sexually harassing and possibily raping the girls on a daily bases? Emotionally and physically abusing them? Letting go and acquiring peace? Do I have to go through every single disgusting thing I saw the boys do to the girls in this manga? It's Stockholm Syndrome no matter how you look at it! No one in their right element would willingly stay with a person that physically, emotionally and sexually abused them on a daily basis! If this manga was a fairy tale the boys would have all been killed and Sora would have brought them all happiness! That would be the fairy tail ending. An ending where the women succumb to Stockholm Syndrome and get together with the people that physically, emotionally and sexually abused them on a daily basis is an incredibly dark ending! This is why the author was forced to add the last chapter. Because she betrayed the expectations of the fans of the manga and ruined what could have been a very likeable series.

Well what you said was that the writers should not be free to write what they want. I don't say you don't have to accept as your opinion, but making them change what they write means little. It's like "this is how it ends" and then "this is how I want it to end". Watch Misery and see how it looks from your perspective. It is like the readers grabbing the writer by the balls and tell them what to write.

Xbox One? So you are comparing an entertainment center with a manga series? There are only two real companies in gaming now besides the PC market (which is vast), so it is considered more of a restricted market. You either choose PS4 or Xbox One. You can also pick up a Wii U, but it is not in the same fight as Sony and Microsoft as it watches from the sidelines. You also have Ouya and GameStick which are not considered part of the console wars just yet.

If you had more of a vast market of consoles in the same ring, I would say go ahead and make your console, I have these other 3 to choose from. Complaints would be far smaller because of the choices. Just like with Win8, Linux, and Apple's OS, which is why Microsoft gets flagged when they make something wrong with their OS.

If there were only 3 authors, I would probably rage about it, but there are hundreds upon millions of such. So, if I dislike it, I might review it poorly or give my critique. It is their choice to change it. If it ends and I want more I will express it, but if it sucks horribly I will not ask them to change the ending to suit my needs, I will just tell them why it sucks. It defeats the purpose of writing a novel if it already has an ending and you "have" to change the ending when it has already been published and sent out.

So, if I publish a book, and it sucks, I must change it by a law that other people set? If it ends, it ends. If you give in to pressure, your choice. If it sucks though and I think of it as the end of that series, then I make another and take in the criticism of what I did wrong.

You bore me by the way.....next? lol

You're taking my words out of context. Each time I mentioned a writer not being able to write whatever he wants I related it to fan appreciation. A writer is free to write whatever he wants so long as it doesn't impact negatively on the audience. Not only would he push himself to failure but also to infamy, losing the adoration of his fans. That's what happens when you have a following. They expect from you and if you don't deliver or deliver badly, you suffer backlash. If a piece of work is written badly it should be rewritten. That doesn't mean, "things don't go your way so change it" it simply means "badly written stories should be rewritten". As long as it is written well, people will appreciate many kinds of endings. So long as it's handled tastefully ofcourse. Not many people will be very welcoming to seeing a character the author has orchestrated for you to absolutely despise get a happily ever after.

Yes, I'm comparing the reaction of the fans of a manga series to the reaction of the possible consumers of the new Xbox. What about that doesn't correlate? And this isn't about the consoles you know? It's about how fans reacted to the system, prompting Microsoft to change in relation to your opinion that a person's work shouldn't be redone if it isn't well appreciated.

I don't understand you're point on the number of authors. The number of authors shouldn't dictate how well or badly the art or medium is question is appreciated. If it's manufactured well, it will be well received. If not you suffer negative feedback, lack of business and then bankruptcy. The ending of a story can make or break it. It's the most important part of the whole novel. If you mess that up, the credit of your writing is decreased substantially, not to mention leaving a sour taste given that the ending will be the last thing left to the readers from that novel.

It's not about giving into pressure. If you publish a book and it sucks, either be courageous and dutiful enough to rewrite it to improve or let if flunk and be famed as a terrible writer. Good luck getting any attention for future projects then. When you produce something for an audience, the audience's expectations are a priority. They're enjoyment and satisfaction will be what brings you fame, adoration and riches. Pridefully disregarding your audience will ultimately lead to downfall.

If I bore you then you must have the most uneventful life, if you have time to debate with a boring person.

Shitsurakuen is the first and only yuri manga I've read, though it's a bit of an enigma when it comes the genre it fits under. It technically fits under the genres of: action, fantasy, harem, shoujoai, and shounen. I personally consider it to be rather comedic, too. I adore it, especially since it's fairly dark and messes with my head. Several details of the ending surprised me, as well. Shitsurakuen is one series that a person should finish before passing judgement. Trust me.

The ending of this manga was terrible. I don't recommend it.

Meh. I don't see how the ending is terrible, but whatever.

The girls were treated like dogs by the despicable guys for 4/5 of the manga's run! From emotional and physical abuse to sexual harassment. Most of them doing it just for the hell of it, others believing females were below them and thus should be treated like such! And in the end the girls that were physically and emotional abused on a daily just freaking forgive their abusers without a second thought and even start dating them! After making you hate the guys so much how can you not find the idea of these girls just letting "bygones be bygones" and pairing up with these scum repulsive!? The ending was a blatant display of Stockholm Syndrome! Even the Japanese readers lashed out and the author had to write another chapter changing the ending slightly. Only slightly, because even in that ending the girls were paired with the guys. By the end of this manga all the Yuri elements were destroyed. Even the main character was paired up with a guy instead of the girl she was in love with for the entire manga.

I really see no point in getting so emotional over a manga, series (TV or novel), or movie. I have not read it yet, but there are many stories that I have found distasteful in a Manga or Anime release, but I do not call for the creator to change it. If it gives you emotion, then it should not be changed since that is a writer's main duty, which is to get people into the emotion of watching and/or reading something with personal reaction.

You're contradicting yourself. First you say you don't understand the reason to get so emotional over fiction then you go on to say a writer's main duty is to invoke emotion.

We are supposed to feel the emotions the writer is trying to portray in his work. That is the purpose or art. That has been the reason for admiring art for millenniums. Saying you don't understand a person getting emotional over art is like saying you don't understand the purpose of the art to begin with. That's an insult to the artist in it's own right.

If a piece of literature or art is distasteful, offensive and/or outright repulsive it should be changed. That's just common sense.

DonMoriartywrote:I see a lot of underground manga/anime that have it where a guy often rapes the girl, unemotional toward her, or has never met until the end of the series. Then during the last chapter or two they wind up with their captors, or the guy who basically spat at her, or even the guy she never seen till then. I do not expect them to change the outcome just to suit my needs. It is just a story within the writer's imagination, so be civilized and let the artists work.

You're the exact opposite of the kinds of readers a good writer appreciate. A good writer appreciates an audience that thinks and critiques his work. A writer appreciates an audience that recognizes his talents, the way he thinks, the emotions he demonstrates. People with your mind sets are the type to swallow whatever crap is pushed your way. Critical thinking is one of the fundamental traits humans need to survive!

DonMoriartywrote:The fact that even in a video game, it meant nothing to me for them to change the ending. It made no difference! Mass Effect 3, is the one I am talking about. If you feel accomplished at changing the artists' works just because you are unhappy, then I feel sorry for you.

You feel sorry for me? A person with no sense of critical thinking is pitying me? A person who can't identify good and bad story writing? That is the most hilariously insulting thing I've heard in quite some time. You seriously don't understand the purpose of a story do you?

DonMoriartywrote:In Kekkaishi, I was so ticked off that they did not explore the powers of that one little girl even more, the one that could see ghosts. I was overly disappointed to where I had a major distaste for it at the end, but it does not mean I want them to change it. Do I care? Yes, but I understand it is their work, not ours.

"It's their work not ours"? I can't believe I'm reading this. An author writes a book for people to enjoy not to be repulsed by it! He isn't writing he book for himself you know! He's writing to satisfy a medium of audience! saying it's his work is a selfish, immature and quite ignorant outlook. If this were the case people would be allowed to write all manner of tripe without being critique for it.

Ok then, so by your reason, let us say Passion of the Christ should have been banned or changed. If a work that has demons in it brings me to tears at how sinful the artists have been, I should call for an immediate change of the stories since Christians find it in bad taste. Dude, a critique and changing the person's artwork are two completely separate issues. At this point you are just talking down to me because I disagree with your logic that every piece of art needs to be changed because it shows rape that offends most mothers or a guy spitting on a girl.

I'm not talking down to you because you disagree with me. I'm talking down to you because propose the asinine reasoning that a persona work should be adored no matter how repulsive or flawed it is. Since you bring up PotC, when have non-religious people found the issues that occur in the Bible acceptable? Non-religious people of all kinds have outwardly condemned biblical stories cruel and repulsive.

DonMoriartywrote:So, if we criticize then we should make it law to change a person's work, just because the select few get offended. Does it change anything for you? Can you say it really makes a difference?

A select few? When you the only people you don't offend are people who think authors are free to write whatever they want and readers should just accept it you know you've done wrong! If a game, movie, book or any type of entertainment medium is widely unappreciated you're damn sure it should be changed! Ask Microsoft.

DonMoriartywrote:I say that you cannot get so emotional to send angry letters at the guy and punishing him for expressing his mind on paper. That is like me wanting them to change South Park to a show like Pokemon or Hamtaro where everyone laughs and there is absolutely nothing to get offended about. Contradiction? No, I was stating my point and you took everything out of the bounds of meaningful context.

The moment you open your work to the public, you open yourself to criticism from the world. People send fan letters, people send criticism, people send hate mail. That's how it is! The author of Shitsurakuen betrayed her fans expectations and they sent negative reviews of her choices and she changed it to appease them! When Microsoft announced the XBox One's features and it was widely discredited resulting in low preorders, they changed it to appease consumers! That's how things go!

What are you talking about changing South Park to Pokemon???? What does that have to do with bad writing?!?! South Park is a satiric show! It's purpose is to exude crude humor, and even this isn't a good example because the only people who are fans of South Park are the ones not offended by it. Which is usually the roughneck average Caucasian salary-man or their teen kids.

DonMoriartywrote:They should change GTA to exclude hookers, pimps, and a poor neighborhood. They should not use curse words or gun violence because it offends me.

You're completely blind to the point at hand aren't you?

DonMoriartywrote:And note, I was not talking down to you, but merely expressing my opinion and not saying that you were the one to pity. I don't know why you were to cross my words like that, but somehow you got confused about what I was saying, Mr. Dictator.

I was cross with you because you outright said you felt sorry for me and structured your whole argument in a passive aggressive way of mocking my reasons. I'm not so touchy as to snap at someone for no reason. You were very condescending.

DonMoriartywrote:Ok, and another thing. That last sentence just made it sound like it isn't his work. Yes, he does it to please a majority of the audience, but you have to realize he does not have to listen to the select few of the audience. I think because he writes it he should do what he wants to do with it. No business of mine to tell him what to do. If you find a distaste for it, force him to write something else. Or, if need be, send him commission.

You keep mentioning this "select few" as if to say a bad piece of art or literature would only be criticized by small few people. This isn't about having issues with certain aspects of a story, it's about to do with the story entirely. You seem like a smart person so I shouldn't have to explain why it's bad writing to have someone abused for 4/5 of a story and then have that person forgive the abuser in the final chapter and live happily ever after. I shouldn't have to explain to you why people won't enjoy an ending like that.

aeb0717wrote:What are you talking about? Sora and Koharu got married in the final chapter, and it's even mentioned that Sora obtained Apple and eliminated the male chauvinism in the school. Even before the 24th chapter was added, there was no true indication that Sora became paired with one of the guys. She was indifferent and focused on her first princess the entire time.

Chapter 23 is where the manga ended and Sora and Koharu didn't end up together then. It was implied she ended up with that other guy that helped her. The author then drew another short chapter to appease the fans due to backlash that I mentioned in my post.

aeb0717wrote:I don't find it repulsive, because the guys shown in the last chapter have apparently repent, and one particularly felt guilty about what all he did and had to be talked into attending the wedding (he thought that he didn't deserve to go). The guys have all ceased their previous behavior, and made peace with themselves and the girls. You may call it Stockholm Syndrome all you want, but have you considered that it may actually be everyone (including the guys) simply letting go and acquiring peace? If you wanted a revenge story instead of one about forgiveness, Shitsurakuen wasn't for you in the first place. Early on, the story's emphasis on fairy-tale knights and happy endings should have been a strong indication that you were in store for an unrealistically peaceful finale.

Oh, come on! They repented? The treated the females like dogs for 4/5 of the manga's run and then said sorry near the end! That all! Feeling guilty and saying sorry excuses them for sexually harassing and possibly raping the girls on a daily bases? They didn't know it was wrong to do that? Letting go and acquiring peace? Do I have to go through every single disgusting thing I saw the boys do to the girls in this manga to make you see just how terrible the ending is? It's Stockholm Syndrome no matter how you look at it! No one in their right element would willingly stay with a person that physically, emotionally and sexually abused them on a daily basis for how many years they've been at that school! If this manga was a fairy tale the boys would have all been killed and Sora would have brought the girls all happiness herself! That would be the fairy tale ending. An ending where the women succumb to Stockholm Syndrome and get together with the people that physically, emotionally and sexually abused them on a daily basis for months - years could be perceived as an incredibly dark ending if intended! This was no fairy tale ending, it was a repulsive half-assed attempt at a wrap up because clearly the author didn't know how what to do with the scum]bag boys at the end. This is why the author was forced to add the last chapter. Because she betrayed the expectations of the fans of the manga and ruined what could have been a very likeable series.

I'm fully aware of what went on in the series. I read the series within the last few days and I caught the 24th chapter earlier today, so please don't repeatedly feed me your overview of events. Also, I never said that the ending is like that of a fairy tail, and your perception of how a fairy tale version of this would end is speculation at best. I merely meant that the ending is fairly "fluffy" by lacking violent retribution against the males. I don't agree with you on the quality of the ending and the Stockholm Syndrome bit, and you're not about to change my mind. Don't get me wrong, because I did spend a good bit of time wanting to pound the heads in of alot of the boys; however, I have no problem accepting how it ended, because I expected something similar about halfway through. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't see Sora condoning the sort of vengeance that you and I would generally prefer. Not without Sora's personality being ripped apart and transformed into some sort of antihero vigilante, at least. I honestly find it refreshing that the author didn't pull that sort of thing, because it would then be too similar to many other stories that I've read.
I understand that you're mad about how Shitsurakuen ended and that you're passionate about the subject, but I'm getting the impression that you're partially taking it out on me.
Also, I nearly missed that you responded to my last post, because you lumped our chat with another conversation. If you wish to continue talking with me, would you kindly keep our discussion separate?

So if you and I read the manga, why do I have to explain to you why it's bad that they forgave them as though they had a minor bicker when they were abused for most of the manga? You certainly did say the ending was fairy tale-like. Or was that a sarcastic remark following the "fairy tail" typo I made? Anyway, yes I made an assumption on how the manga would be if it were really a fairy tale but that's an assumption based on how fairy tale stories truly are, plus it's fairly obvious it would be an assumption given that it doesn't exist so I don't see the point you were trying to make there. You must have some good hindsight because I sure as hell didn't expect the victims to be paired up with the abusers. And I think I can say the same for all the other fans who were displeased with the ending. I know if I saw that coming I'd have quite the manga then and there. You might be ok with the ending but clearly you're on the minority. It's most likely not intentional but the ending gave off some serious Stockholm Syndrome vibe, and if you can't see that then fine but as I said before, the author received quite a bit of backlash from Shitsurakuen fans. Enough so to prompt her to write chapter 24. Sora's personality doesn't need to stay the same all through. It's actually a good thing for her to change for the sake of character growth.

I was indeed upset about the ending of Shitsurakuen but I'm not taking it out on you at all. I don't even know you, and I read that manga at least a year and a half ago. You wrote something I didn't agree with so I responded, you replied back and from there it escalated into a debate. That's just how things tend to go on forums. Remember I only replied to you saying the ending was terrible so I don't recommend it. No more, no less. It's something I and many people didn't enjoy due to the ending, so I made the OP aware.

Actually, I never intended on having a silly debate over this manga in the first place. I recommended it and you seemingly went out of your way to argue with me. At least, that's what I felt at the time. You quoted my comment and I received a notification. As such, I felt that it would be polite to acknowledge your response, so I asserted that I disagree. I tried to communicate that, although I disagreed, I wasn't interested in arguing over the subject. I chose the wording of my initial comment to you to be rather non-confrontational, which is why I chose to start with a relaxed "meh" and end with "but whatever." Things became weird from there as I tried to explain that you and I don't see eye-to-eye, and as I became determined to assert that our disagreement doesn't necessarily mean that either you or I are wrong. I was genuinely confused about when you stated that Sora was paired with that one guy, though. I actually felt that their relationship was entirely one-sided on his end, and I didn't feel that they were actually paired together. I was unsure about whether or not chapter 24 was the ending you were talking about, so I brought the wedding up. There was a sizable chance that I hadn't read the "fixed" ending.

Early on, the story's emphasis on fairy-tale knights and happy endings should have been a strong indication that you were in store for an unrealistically peaceful finale.

It was Sora's dream to be a pure-hearted knight that saves the day and how she was constantly compared to them that I was talking about being "fairy-tale."

I think we turned this thread into a soap opera, by the way... How embarrassing. Admittedly, though, our debate is the most exciting conversation that I've had in months.

Shitsurakuen is the first and only yuri manga I've read, though it's a bit of an enigma when it comes the genre it fits under. It technically fits under the genres of: action, fantasy, harem, shoujoai, and shounen. I personally consider it to be rather comedic, too. I adore it, especially since it's fairly dark and messes with my head. Several details of the ending surprised me, as well. Shitsurakuen is one series that a person should finish before passing judgement. Trust me.

The ending of this manga was terrible. I don't recommend it.

Meh. I don't see how the ending is terrible, but whatever.

The girls were treated like dogs by the despicable guys for 4/5 of the manga's run! From emotional and physical abuse to sexual harassment. Most of them doing it just for the hell of it, others believing females were below them and thus should be treated like such! And in the end the girls that were physically and emotional abused on a daily just freaking forgive their abusers without a second thought and even start dating them! After making you hate the guys so much how can you not find the idea of these girls just letting "bygones be bygones" and pairing up with these scum repulsive!? The ending was a blatant display of Stockholm Syndrome! Even the Japanese readers lashed out and the author had to write another chapter changing the ending slightly. Only slightly, because even in that ending the girls were paired with the guys. By the end of this manga all the Yuri elements were destroyed. Even the main character was paired up with a guy instead of the girl she was in love with for the entire manga.

I really see no point in getting so emotional over a manga, series (TV or novel), or movie. I have not read it yet, but there are many stories that I have found distasteful in a Manga or Anime release, but I do not call for the creator to change it. If it gives you emotion, then it should not be changed since that is a writer's main duty, which is to get people into the emotion of watching and/or reading something with personal reaction.

You're contradicting yourself. First you say you don't understand the reason to get so emotional over fiction then you go on to say a writer's main duty is to invoke emotion.

We are supposed to feel the emotions the writer is trying to portray in his work. That is the purpose or art. That has been the reason for admiring art for millenniums. Saying you don't understand a person getting emotional over art is like saying you don't understand the purpose of the art to begin with. That's an insult to the artist in it's own right.

If a piece of literature or art is distasteful, offensive and/or outright repulsive it should be changed. That's just common sense.

DonMoriartywrote:I see a lot of underground manga/anime that have it where a guy often rapes the girl, unemotional toward her, or has never met until the end of the series. Then during the last chapter or two they wind up with their captors, or the guy who basically spat at her, or even the guy she never seen till then. I do not expect them to change the outcome just to suit my needs. It is just a story within the writer's imagination, so be civilized and let the artists work.

You're the exact opposite of the kinds of readers a good writer appreciate. A good writer appreciates an audience that thinks and critiques his work. A writer appreciates an audience that recognizes his talents, the way he thinks, the emotions he demonstrates. People with your mind sets are the type to swallow whatever crap is pushed your way. Critical thinking is one of the fundamental traits humans need to survive!

DonMoriartywrote:The fact that even in a video game, it meant nothing to me for them to change the ending. It made no difference! Mass Effect 3, is the one I am talking about. If you feel accomplished at changing the artists' works just because you are unhappy, then I feel sorry for you.

You feel sorry for me? A person with no sense of critical thinking is pitying me? A person who can't identify good and bad story writing? That is the most hilariously insulting thing I've heard in quite some time. You seriously don't understand the purpose of a story do you?

DonMoriartywrote:In Kekkaishi, I was so ticked off that they did not explore the powers of that one little girl even more, the one that could see ghosts. I was overly disappointed to where I had a major distaste for it at the end, but it does not mean I want them to change it. Do I care? Yes, but I understand it is their work, not ours.

"It's their work not ours"? I can't believe I'm reading this. An author writes a book for people to enjoy not to be repulsed by it! He isn't writing he book for himself you know! He's writing to satisfy a medium of audience! saying it's his work is a selfish, immature and quite ignorant outlook. If this were the case people would be allowed to write all manner of tripe without being critique for it.

Ok then, so by your reason, let us say Passion of the Christ should have been banned or changed. If a work that has demons in it brings me to tears at how sinful the artists have been, I should call for an immediate change of the stories since Christians find it in bad taste. Dude, a critique and changing the person's artwork are two completely separate issues. At this point you are just talking down to me because I disagree with your logic that every piece of art needs to be changed because it shows rape that offends most mothers or a guy spitting on a girl.

I'm not talking down to you because you disagree with me. I'm talking down to you because propose the asinine reasoning that a persona work should be adored no matter how repulsive or flawed it is. Since you bring up PotC, when have non-religious people found the issues that occur in the Bible acceptable? Non-religious people of all kinds have outwardly condemned biblical stories cruel and repulsive.

DonMoriartywrote:So, if we criticize then we should make it law to change a person's work, just because the select few get offended. Does it change anything for you? Can you say it really makes a difference?

A select few? When you the only people you don't offend are people who think authors are free to write whatever they want and readers should just accept it you know you've done wrong! If a game, movie, book or any type of entertainment medium is widely unappreciated you're damn sure it should be changed! Ask Microsoft.

DonMoriartywrote:I say that you cannot get so emotional to send angry letters at the guy and punishing him for expressing his mind on paper. That is like me wanting them to change South Park to a show like Pokemon or Hamtaro where everyone laughs and there is absolutely nothing to get offended about. Contradiction? No, I was stating my point and you took everything out of the bounds of meaningful context.

The moment you open your work to the public, you open yourself to criticism from the world. People send fan letters, people send criticism, people send hate mail. That's how it is! The author of Shitsurakuen betrayed her fans expectations and they sent negative reviews of her choices and she changed it to appease them! When Microsoft announced the XBox One's features and it was widely discredited resulting in low preorders, they changed it to appease consumers! That's how things go!

What are you talking about changing South Park to Pokemon???? What does that have to do with bad writing?!?! South Park is a satiric show! It's purpose is to exude crude humor, and even this isn't a good example because the only people who are fans of South Park are the ones not offended by it. Which is usually the roughneck average Caucasian salary-man or their teen kids.

DonMoriartywrote:They should change GTA to exclude hookers, pimps, and a poor neighborhood. They should not use curse words or gun violence because it offends me.

You're completely blind to the point at hand aren't you?

DonMoriartywrote:And note, I was not talking down to you, but merely expressing my opinion and not saying that you were the one to pity. I don't know why you were to cross my words like that, but somehow you got confused about what I was saying, Mr. Dictator.

I was cross with you because you outright said you felt sorry for me and structured your whole argument in a passive aggressive way of mocking my reasons. I'm not so touchy as to snap at someone for no reason. You were very condescending.

DonMoriartywrote:Ok, and another thing. That last sentence just made it sound like it isn't his work. Yes, he does it to please a majority of the audience, but you have to realize he does not have to listen to the select few of the audience. I think because he writes it he should do what he wants to do with it. No business of mine to tell him what to do. If you find a distaste for it, force him to write something else. Or, if need be, send him commission.

You keep mentioning this "select few" as if to say a bad piece of art or literature would only be criticized by small few people. This isn't about having issues with certain aspects of a story, it's about to do with the story entirely. You seem like a smart person so I shouldn't have to explain why it's bad writing to have someone abused for 4/5 of a story and then have that person forgive the abuser in the final chapter and live happily ever after. I shouldn't have to explain to you why people won't enjoy an ending like that.

Shitsurakuen is the first and only yuri manga I've read, though it's a bit of an enigma when it comes the genre it fits under. It technically fits under the genres of: action, fantasy, harem, shoujoai, and shounen. I personally consider it to be rather comedic, too. I adore it, especially since it's fairly dark and messes with my head. Several details of the ending surprised me, as well. Shitsurakuen is one series that a person should finish before passing judgement. Trust me.

The ending of this manga was terrible. I don't recommend it.

Meh. I don't see how the ending is terrible, but whatever.

The girls were treated like dogs by the despicable guys for 4/5 of the manga's run! From emotional and physical abuse to sexual harassment. Most of them doing it just for the hell of it, others believing females were below them and thus should be treated like such! And in the end the girls that were physically and emotional abused on a daily just freaking forgive their abusers without a second thought and even start dating them! After making you hate the guys so much how can you not find the idea of these girls just letting "bygones be bygones" and pairing up with these scum repulsive!? The ending was a blatant display of Stockholm Syndrome! Even the Japanese readers lashed out and the author had to write another chapter changing the ending slightly. Only slightly, because even in that ending the girls were paired with the guys. By the end of this manga all the Yuri elements were destroyed. Even the main character was paired up with a guy instead of the girl she was in love with for the entire manga.

---------------------------

Recommended Yuri Mangas

1. Hanjuku Joshi
2. Ebisu-san and Hotei-san
3. Prism Higashiyama Shou
4. Yuri Hime Wildrose. (A massive collection of Yuri manga by many different authors featured in one volume. There are currently 6 volumes of Yuri Hime Wildrose)
5. Girl Friends
6. Kashimashi - Girl Meets Girl
7. Maka Maka
8. Gokujyo: Gokurakuin Joshikōryō Monogatari (Not really Yuri but it takes place in an all girls school and the girls do a lot of pervy yet hilarious stuff. Maybe it could be classified as Shoujo Ai. It's more comedy oriented than story and the art is great. A personal favorite.)

Even the main character was paired up with a guy instead of the girl she was in love with for the entire manga.

aeb0717wrote:What are you talking about? Sora and Koharu got married in the final chapter, and it's even mentioned that Sora obtained Apple and eliminated the male chauvinism in the school. Even before the 24th chapter was added, there was no true indication that Sora became paired with one of the guys. She was indifferent and focused on her first princess the entire time.

Chapter 23 is where the manga ended and Sora and Koharu didn't end up together then. It was implied she ended up with that other guy that helped her. The author then drew another short chapter to appease the fans due to backlash that I mentioned in my post.

aeb0717wrote:I don't find it repulsive, because the guys shown in the last chapter have apparently repent, and one particularly felt guilty about what all he did and had to be talked into attending the wedding (he thought that he didn't deserve to go). The guys have all ceased their previous behavior, and made peace with themselves and the girls. You may call it Stockholm Syndrome all you want, but have you considered that it may actually be everyone (including the guys) simply letting go and acquiring peace? If you wanted a revenge story instead of one about forgiveness, Shitsurakuen wasn't for you in the first place. Early on, the story's emphasis on fairy-tale knights and happy endings should have been a strong indication that you were in store for an unrealistically peaceful finale.

Are you serious? They repented? The treated the females like dogs for 3/4 of the mangas run and then said sorry! That all! Feeling guilty and saying sorry excuses them for sexually harassing and possibily raping the girls on a daily bases? Emotionally and physically abusing them? Letting go and acquiring peace? Do I have to go through every single disgusting thing I saw the boys do to the girls in this manga? It's Stockholm Syndrome no matter how you look at it! No one in their right element would willingly stay with a person that physically, emotionally and sexually abused them on a daily basis! If this manga was a fairy tale the boys would have all been killed and Sora would have brought them all happiness! That would be the fairy tail ending. An ending where the women succumb to Stockholm Syndrome and get together with the people that physically, emotionally and sexually abused them on a daily basis is an incredibly dark ending! This is why the author was forced to add the last chapter. Because she betrayed the expectations of the fans of the manga and ruined what could have been a very likeable series.

Well what you said was that the writers should not be free to write what they want. I don't say you don't have to accept as your opinion, but making them change what they write means little. It's like "this is how it ends" and then "this is how I want it to end". Watch Misery and see how it looks from your perspective. It is like the readers grabbing the writer by the balls and tell them what to write.

Xbox One? So you are comparing an entertainment center with a manga series? There are only two real companies in gaming now besides the PC market (which is vast), so it is considered more of a restricted market. You either choose PS4 or Xbox One. You can also pick up a Wii U, but it is not in the same fight as Sony and Microsoft as it watches from the sidelines. You also have Ouya and GameStick which are not considered part of the console wars just yet.

If you had more of a vast market of consoles in the same ring, I would say go ahead and make your console, I have these other 3 to choose from. Complaints would be far smaller because of the choices. Just like with Win8, Linux, and Apple's OS, which is why Microsoft gets flagged when they make something wrong with their OS.

If there were only 3 authors, I would probably rage about it, but there are hundreds upon millions of such. So, if I dislike it, I might review it poorly or give my critique. It is their choice to change it. If it ends and I want more I will express it, but if it sucks horribly I will not ask them to change the ending to suit my needs, I will just tell them why it sucks. It defeats the purpose of writing a novel if it already has an ending and you "have" to change the ending when it has already been published and sent out.

So, if I publish a book, and it sucks, I must change it by a law that other people set? If it ends, it ends. If you give in to pressure, your choice. If it sucks though and I think of it as the end of that series, then I make another and take in the criticism of what I did wrong.

You bore me by the way.....next? lol

You're taking my words out of context. Each time I mentioned a writer not being able to write whatever he wants I related it to fan appreciation. A writer is free to write whatever he wants so long as it doesn't impact negatively on the audience. Not only would he push himself to failure but also to infamy, losing the adoration of his fans. That's what happens when you have a following. They expect from you and if you don't deliver or deliver badly, you suffer backlash. If a piece of work is written badly it should be rewritten. That doesn't mean, "things don't go your way so change it" it simply means "badly written stories should be rewritten". As long as it is written well, people will appreciate many kinds of endings. So long as it's handled tastefully ofcourse. Not many people will be very welcoming to seeing a character the author has orchestrated for you to absolutely despise get a happily ever after.

Yes, I'm comparing the reaction of the fans of a manga series to the reaction of the possible consumers of the new Xbox. What about that doesn't correlate? And this isn't about the consoles you know? It's about how fans reacted to the system, prompting Microsoft to change in relation to your opinion that a person's work shouldn't be redone if it isn't well appreciated.

I don't understand you're point on the number of authors. The number of authors shouldn't dictate how well or badly the art or medium is question is appreciated. If it's manufactured well, it will be well received. If not you suffer negative feedback, lack of business and then bankruptcy. The ending of a story can make or break it. It's the most important part of the whole novel. If you mess that up, the credit of your writing is decreased substantially, not to mention leaving a sour taste given that the ending will be the last thing left to the readers from that novel.

It's not about giving into pressure. If you publish a book and it sucks, either be courageous and dutiful enough to rewrite it to improve or let if flunk and be famed as a terrible writer. Good luck getting any attention for future projects then. When you produce something for an audience, the audience's expectations are a priority. They're enjoyment and satisfaction will be what brings you fame, adoration and riches. Pridefully disregarding your audience will ultimately lead to downfall.

If I bore you then you must have the most uneventful life, if you have time to debate with a boring person.

Shitsurakuen is the first and only yuri manga I've read, though it's a bit of an enigma when it comes the genre it fits under. It technically fits under the genres of: action, fantasy, harem, shoujoai, and shounen. I personally consider it to be rather comedic, too. I adore it, especially since it's fairly dark and messes with my head. Several details of the ending surprised me, as well. Shitsurakuen is one series that a person should finish before passing judgement. Trust me.

The ending of this manga was terrible. I don't recommend it.

Meh. I don't see how the ending is terrible, but whatever.

The girls were treated like dogs by the despicable guys for 4/5 of the manga's run! From emotional and physical abuse to sexual harassment. Most of them doing it just for the hell of it, others believing females were below them and thus should be treated like such! And in the end the girls that were physically and emotional abused on a daily just freaking forgive their abusers without a second thought and even start dating them! After making you hate the guys so much how can you not find the idea of these girls just letting "bygones be bygones" and pairing up with these scum repulsive!? The ending was a blatant display of Stockholm Syndrome! Even the Japanese readers lashed out and the author had to write another chapter changing the ending slightly. Only slightly, because even in that ending the girls were paired with the guys. By the end of this manga all the Yuri elements were destroyed. Even the main character was paired up with a guy instead of the girl she was in love with for the entire manga.

I really see no point in getting so emotional over a manga, series (TV or novel), or movie. I have not read it yet, but there are many stories that I have found distasteful in a Manga or Anime release, but I do not call for the creator to change it. If it gives you emotion, then it should not be changed since that is a writer's main duty, which is to get people into the emotion of watching and/or reading something with personal reaction.

You're contradicting yourself. First you say you don't understand the reason to get so emotional over fiction then you go on to say a writer's main duty is to invoke emotion.

We are supposed to feel the emotions the writer is trying to portray in his work. That is the purpose or art. That has been the reason for admiring art for millenniums. Saying you don't understand a person getting emotional over art is like saying you don't understand the purpose of the art to begin with. That's an insult to the artist in it's own right.

If a piece of literature or art is distasteful, offensive and/or outright repulsive it should be changed. That's just common sense.

DonMoriartywrote:I see a lot of underground manga/anime that have it where a guy often rapes the girl, unemotional toward her, or has never met until the end of the series. Then during the last chapter or two they wind up with their captors, or the guy who basically spat at her, or even the guy she never seen till then. I do not expect them to change the outcome just to suit my needs. It is just a story within the writer's imagination, so be civilized and let the artists work.

You're the exact opposite of the kinds of readers a good writer appreciate. A good writer appreciates an audience that thinks and critiques his work. A writer appreciates an audience that recognizes his talents, the way he thinks, the emotions he demonstrates. People with your mind sets are the type to swallow whatever crap is pushed your way. Critical thinking is one of the fundamental traits humans need to survive!

DonMoriartywrote:The fact that even in a video game, it meant nothing to me for them to change the ending. It made no difference! Mass Effect 3, is the one I am talking about. If you feel accomplished at changing the artists' works just because you are unhappy, then I feel sorry for you.

You feel sorry for me? A person with no sense of critical thinking is pitying me? A person who can't identify good and bad story writing? That is the most hilariously insulting thing I've heard in quite some time. You seriously don't understand the purpose of a story do you?

DonMoriartywrote:In Kekkaishi, I was so ticked off that they did not explore the powers of that one little girl even more, the one that could see ghosts. I was overly disappointed to where I had a major distaste for it at the end, but it does not mean I want them to change it. Do I care? Yes, but I understand it is their work, not ours.

"It's their work not ours"? I can't believe I'm reading this. An author writes a book for people to enjoy not to be repulsed by it! He isn't writing he book for himself you know! He's writing to satisfy a medium of audience! saying it's his work is a selfish, immature and quite ignorant outlook. If this were the case people would be allowed to write all manner of tripe without being critique for it.

Ok then, so by your reason, let us say Passion of the Christ should have been banned or changed. If a work that has demons in it brings me to tears at how sinful the artists have been, I should call for an immediate change of the stories since Christians find it in bad taste. Dude, a critique and changing the person's artwork are two completely separate issues. At this point you are just talking down to me because I disagree with your logic that every piece of art needs to be changed because it shows rape that offends most mothers or a guy spitting on a girl.

I'm not talking down to you because you disagree with me. I'm talking down to you because propose the asinine reasoning that a persona work should be adored no matter how repulsive or flawed it is. Since you bring up PotC, when have non-religious people found the issues that occur in the Bible acceptable? Non-religious people of all kinds have outwardly condemned biblical stories cruel and repulsive.

DonMoriartywrote:So, if we criticize then we should make it law to change a person's work, just because the select few get offended. Does it change anything for you? Can you say it really makes a difference?

A select few? When you the only people you don't offend are people who think authors are free to write whatever they want and readers should just accept it you know you've done wrong! If a game, movie, book or any type of entertainment medium is widely unappreciated you're damn sure it should be changed! Ask Microsoft.

DonMoriartywrote:I say that you cannot get so emotional to send angry letters at the guy and punishing him for expressing his mind on paper. That is like me wanting them to change South Park to a show like Pokemon or Hamtaro where everyone laughs and there is absolutely nothing to get offended about. Contradiction? No, I was stating my point and you took everything out of the bounds of meaningful context.

The moment you open your work to the public, you open yourself to criticism from the world. People send fan letters, people send criticism, people send hate mail. That's how it is! The author of Shitsurakuen betrayed her fans expectations and they sent negative reviews of her choices and she changed it to appease them! When Microsoft announced the XBox One's features and it was widely discredited resulting in low preorders, they changed it to appease consumers! That's how things go!

What are you talking about changing South Park to Pokemon???? What does that have to do with bad writing?!?! South Park is a satiric show! It's purpose is to exude crude humor, and even this isn't a good example because the only people who are fans of South Park are the ones not offended by it. Which is usually the roughneck average Caucasian salary-man or their teen kids.

DonMoriartywrote:They should change GTA to exclude hookers, pimps, and a poor neighborhood. They should not use curse words or gun violence because it offends me.

You're completely blind to the point at hand aren't you?

DonMoriartywrote:And note, I was not talking down to you, but merely expressing my opinion and not saying that you were the one to pity. I don't know why you were to cross my words like that, but somehow you got confused about what I was saying, Mr. Dictator.

I was cross with you because you outright said you felt sorry for me and structured your whole argument in a passive aggressive way of mocking my reasons. I'm not so touchy as to snap at someone for no reason. You were very condescending.

DonMoriartywrote:Ok, and another thing. That last sentence just made it sound like it isn't his work. Yes, he does it to please a majority of the audience, but you have to realize he does not have to listen to the select few of the audience. I think because he writes it he should do what he wants to do with it. No business of mine to tell him what to do. If you find a distaste for it, force him to write something else. Or, if need be, send him commission.

You keep mentioning this "select few" as if to say a bad piece of art or literature would only be criticized by small few people. This isn't about having issues with certain aspects of a story, it's about to do with the story entirely. You seem like a smart person so I shouldn't have to explain why it's bad writing to have someone abused for 4/5 of a story and then have that person forgive the abuser in the final chapter and live happily ever after. I shouldn't have to explain to you why people won't enjoy an ending like that.

aeb0717wrote:What are you talking about? Sora and Koharu got married in the final chapter, and it's even mentioned that Sora obtained Apple and eliminated the male chauvinism in the school. Even before the 24th chapter was added, there was no true indication that Sora became paired with one of the guys. She was indifferent and focused on her first princess the entire time.

Chapter 23 is where the manga ended and Sora and Koharu didn't end up together then. It was implied she ended up with that other guy that helped her. The author then drew another short chapter to appease the fans due to backlash that I mentioned in my post.

aeb0717wrote:I don't find it repulsive, because the guys shown in the last chapter have apparently repent, and one particularly felt guilty about what all he did and had to be talked into attending the wedding (he thought that he didn't deserve to go). The guys have all ceased their previous behavior, and made peace with themselves and the girls. You may call it Stockholm Syndrome all you want, but have you considered that it may actually be everyone (including the guys) simply letting go and acquiring peace? If you wanted a revenge story instead of one about forgiveness, Shitsurakuen wasn't for you in the first place. Early on, the story's emphasis on fairy-tale knights and happy endings should have been a strong indication that you were in store for an unrealistically peaceful finale.

Oh, come on! They repented? The treated the females like dogs for 4/5 of the manga's run and then said sorry near the end! That all! Feeling guilty and saying sorry excuses them for sexually harassing and possibly raping the girls on a daily bases? They didn't know it was wrong to do that? Letting go and acquiring peace? Do I have to go through every single disgusting thing I saw the boys do to the girls in this manga to make you see just how terrible the ending is? It's Stockholm Syndrome no matter how you look at it! No one in their right element would willingly stay with a person that physically, emotionally and sexually abused them on a daily basis for how many years they've been at that school! If this manga was a fairy tale the boys would have all been killed and Sora would have brought the girls all happiness herself! That would be the fairy tale ending. An ending where the women succumb to Stockholm Syndrome and get together with the people that physically, emotionally and sexually abused them on a daily basis for months - years could be perceived as an incredibly dark ending if intended! This was no fairy tale ending, it was a repulsive half-assed attempt at a wrap up because clearly the author didn't know how what to do with the scum]bag boys at the end. This is why the author was forced to add the last chapter. Because she betrayed the expectations of the fans of the manga and ruined what could have been a very likeable series.

I'm fully aware of what went on in the series. I read the series within the last few days and I caught the 24th chapter earlier today, so please don't repeatedly feed me your overview of events. Also, I never said that the ending is like that of a fairy tail, and your perception of how a fairy tale version of this would end is speculation at best. I merely meant that the ending is fairly "fluffy" by lacking violent retribution against the males. I don't agree with you on the quality of the ending and the Stockholm Syndrome bit, and you're not about to change my mind. Don't get me wrong, because I did spend a good bit of time wanting to pound the heads in of alot of the boys; however, I have no problem accepting how it ended, because I expected something similar about halfway through. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't see Sora condoning the sort of vengeance that you and I would generally prefer. Not without Sora's personality being ripped apart and transformed into some sort of antihero vigilante, at least. I honestly find it refreshing that the author didn't pull that sort of thing, because it would then be too similar to many other stories that I've read.
I understand that you're mad about how Shitsurakuen ended and that you're passionate about the subject, but I'm getting the impression that you're partially taking it out on me.
Also, I nearly missed that you responded to my last post, because you lumped our chat with another conversation. If you wish to continue talking with me, would you kindly keep our discussion separate?

So if you and I read the manga, why do I have to explain to you why it's bad that they forgave them as though they had a minor bicker when they were abused for most of the manga? You certainly did say the ending was fairy tale-like. Or was that a sarcastic remark following the "fairy tail" typo I made? Anyway, yes I made an assumption on how the manga would be if it were really a fairy tale but that's an assumption based on how fairy tale stories truly are, plus it's fairly obvious it would be an assumption given that it doesn't exist so I don't see the point you were trying to make there. You must have some good hindsight because I sure as hell didn't expect the victims to be paired up with the abusers. And I think I can say the same for all the other fans who were displeased with the ending. I know if I saw that coming I'd have quite the manga then and there. You might be ok with the ending but clearly you're on the minority. It's most likely not intentional but the ending gave off some serious Stockholm Syndrome vibe, and if you can't see that then fine but as I said before, the author received quite a bit of backlash from Shitsurakuen fans. Enough so to prompt her to write chapter 24. Sora's personality doesn't need to stay the same all through. It's actually a good thing for her to change for the sake of character growth.

I was indeed upset about the ending of Shitsurakuen but I'm not taking it out on you at all. I don't even know you, and I read that manga at least a year and a half ago. You wrote something I didn't agree with so I responded, you replied back and from there it escalated into a debate. That's just how things tend to go on forums. Remember I only replied to you saying the ending was terrible so I don't recommend it. No more, no less. It's something I and many people didn't enjoy due to the ending, so I made the OP aware.

By your debate then, it is concluded that Bleach, Naruto, and Death Note should all be rewritten manga because they impacted me in a negative way - I did not like them.

I did not say it was not the author's will to make an impression on the audience, but duty? That is like slave labor lol. I think of one person same as the other, if they do not want to then they do not have to change the ending of any of their stories.

I also have not attacked you directly thus far, only defend my opinion. I have not attacked you, but yet you keep attacking me lol. I do not stand idle, and only defend myself when needed.

The only real conclusion I can come up with from this debating is that you liked it all the way up until the ending. Which of course seems a lot of people didn't like, but I would not do what that girl in Misery did when she told the guy to rewrite the script. To me, it makes no difference because it has already happened, and the ending was essentially finalized.

Except you are not of the majority to dislike those manga. Again you keep referencing a "select few" when I'm speaking of the general majority of the audience. Not liking something and whole-fully finding something repulsive, disgusting and offensive is something else. I too have many manga and anime series I don't like but that doesn't mean I want them rewritten. You keep missing the point I'm trying to make. If a story is bad it should be rewritten. I don't mean if you dislike something about it. If the story is written badly it should be rewritten. That's all. There are many ways to divulge a badly written story using literature story schemes.

Slave labor? You don't understand what it's like catering to a fan base. The audiences expectations are the utmost priority. The whole reason people make art is for it to be adored. If you still can't understand this then becoming a writer is something you probably shouldn't consider.

I'm not attacking you. I'm just disagreeing with your opinion and giving you reasons for doing so. If it's of inconvenience then we can stop the debate.

The reason I and many people didn't like the ending is because it was horribly rushed, badly handled and went in a direction her fans couldn't couldn't stomach. The author manipulated the story so as to make readers detest these characters for 4/5 or the manga's run and in the last chapter they simply said "sorry" and got a happily ever after. The author of Shitsurakuen was never asked to rewrite the story, she did it of her own free will after receiving largely negative feedback from her fans. And she didn't even change it. All she did was do an add-on chapter.

Shitsurakuen is the first and only yuri manga I've read, though it's a bit of an enigma when it comes the genre it fits under. It technically fits under the genres of: action, fantasy, harem, shoujoai, and shounen. I personally consider it to be rather comedic, too. I adore it, especially since it's fairly dark and messes with my head. Several details of the ending surprised me, as well. Shitsurakuen is one series that a person should finish before passing judgement. Trust me.

The ending of this manga was terrible. I don't recommend it.

Meh. I don't see how the ending is terrible, but whatever.

The girls were treated like dogs by the despicable guys for 4/5 of the manga's run! From emotional and physical abuse to sexual harassment. Most of them doing it just for the hell of it, others believing females were below them and thus should be treated like such! And in the end the girls that were physically and emotional abused on a daily just freaking forgive their abusers without a second thought and even start dating them! After making you hate the guys so much how can you not find the idea of these girls just letting "bygones be bygones" and pairing up with these scum repulsive!? The ending was a blatant display of Stockholm Syndrome! Even the Japanese readers lashed out and the author had to write another chapter changing the ending slightly. Only slightly, because even in that ending the girls were paired with the guys. By the end of this manga all the Yuri elements were destroyed. Even the main character was paired up with a guy instead of the girl she was in love with for the entire manga.

I really see no point in getting so emotional over a manga, series (TV or novel), or movie. I have not read it yet, but there are many stories that I have found distasteful in a Manga or Anime release, but I do not call for the creator to change it. If it gives you emotion, then it should not be changed since that is a writer's main duty, which is to get people into the emotion of watching and/or reading something with personal reaction.

You're contradicting yourself. First you say you don't understand the reason to get so emotional over fiction then you go on to say a writer's main duty is to invoke emotion.

We are supposed to feel the emotions the writer is trying to portray in his work. That is the purpose or art. That has been the reason for admiring art for millenniums. Saying you don't understand a person getting emotional over art is like saying you don't understand the purpose of the art to begin with. That's an insult to the artist in it's own right.

If a piece of literature or art is distasteful, offensive and/or outright repulsive it should be changed. That's just common sense.

DonMoriartywrote:I see a lot of underground manga/anime that have it where a guy often rapes the girl, unemotional toward her, or has never met until the end of the series. Then during the last chapter or two they wind up with their captors, or the guy who basically spat at her, or even the guy she never seen till then. I do not expect them to change the outcome just to suit my needs. It is just a story within the writer's imagination, so be civilized and let the artists work.

You're the exact opposite of the kinds of readers a good writer appreciate. A good writer appreciates an audience that thinks and critiques his work. A writer appreciates an audience that recognizes his talents, the way he thinks, the emotions he demonstrates. People with your mind sets are the type to swallow whatever crap is pushed your way. Critical thinking is one of the fundamental traits humans need to survive!

DonMoriartywrote:The fact that even in a video game, it meant nothing to me for them to change the ending. It made no difference! Mass Effect 3, is the one I am talking about. If you feel accomplished at changing the artists' works just because you are unhappy, then I feel sorry for you.

You feel sorry for me? A person with no sense of critical thinking is pitying me? A person who can't identify good and bad story writing? That is the most hilariously insulting thing I've heard in quite some time. You seriously don't understand the purpose of a story do you?

DonMoriartywrote:In Kekkaishi, I was so ticked off that they did not explore the powers of that one little girl even more, the one that could see ghosts. I was overly disappointed to where I had a major distaste for it at the end, but it does not mean I want them to change it. Do I care? Yes, but I understand it is their work, not ours.

"It's their work not ours"? I can't believe I'm reading this. An author writes a book for people to enjoy not to be repulsed by it! He isn't writing he book for himself you know! He's writing to satisfy a medium of audience! saying it's his work is a selfish, immature and quite ignorant outlook. If this were the case people would be allowed to write all manner of tripe without being critique for it.

Ok then, so by your reason, let us say Passion of the Christ should have been banned or changed. If a work that has demons in it brings me to tears at how sinful the artists have been, I should call for an immediate change of the stories since Christians find it in bad taste. Dude, a critique and changing the person's artwork are two completely separate issues. At this point you are just talking down to me because I disagree with your logic that every piece of art needs to be changed because it shows rape that offends most mothers or a guy spitting on a girl.

I'm not talking down to you because you disagree with me. I'm talking down to you because propose the asinine reasoning that a persona work should be adored no matter how repulsive or flawed it is. Since you bring up PotC, when have non-religious people found the issues that occur in the Bible acceptable? Non-religious people of all kinds have outwardly condemned biblical stories cruel and repulsive.

DonMoriartywrote:So, if we criticize then we should make it law to change a person's work, just because the select few get offended. Does it change anything for you? Can you say it really makes a difference?

A select few? When you the only people you don't offend are people who think authors are free to write whatever they want and readers should just accept it you know you've done wrong! If a game, movie, book or any type of entertainment medium is widely unappreciated you're damn sure it should be changed! Ask Microsoft.

DonMoriartywrote:I say that you cannot get so emotional to send angry letters at the guy and punishing him for expressing his mind on paper. That is like me wanting them to change South Park to a show like Pokemon or Hamtaro where everyone laughs and there is absolutely nothing to get offended about. Contradiction? No, I was stating my point and you took everything out of the bounds of meaningful context.

The moment you open your work to the public, you open yourself to criticism from the world. People send fan letters, people send criticism, people send hate mail. That's how it is! The author of Shitsurakuen betrayed her fans expectations and they sent negative reviews of her choices and she changed it to appease them! When Microsoft announced the XBox One's features and it was widely discredited resulting in low preorders, they changed it to appease consumers! That's how things go!

What are you talking about changing South Park to Pokemon???? What does that have to do with bad writing?!?! South Park is a satiric show! It's purpose is to exude crude humor, and even this isn't a good example because the only people who are fans of South Park are the ones not offended by it. Which is usually the roughneck average Caucasian salary-man or their teen kids.

DonMoriartywrote:They should change GTA to exclude hookers, pimps, and a poor neighborhood. They should not use curse words or gun violence because it offends me.

You're completely blind to the point at hand aren't you?

DonMoriartywrote:And note, I was not talking down to you, but merely expressing my opinion and not saying that you were the one to pity. I don't know why you were to cross my words like that, but somehow you got confused about what I was saying, Mr. Dictator.

I was cross with you because you outright said you felt sorry for me and structured your whole argument in a passive aggressive way of mocking my reasons. I'm not so touchy as to snap at someone for no reason. You were very condescending.

DonMoriartywrote:Ok, and another thing. That last sentence just made it sound like it isn't his work. Yes, he does it to please a majority of the audience, but you have to realize he does not have to listen to the select few of the audience. I think because he writes it he should do what he wants to do with it. No business of mine to tell him what to do. If you find a distaste for it, force him to write something else. Or, if need be, send him commission.

You keep mentioning this "select few" as if to say a bad piece of art or literature would only be criticized by small few people. This isn't about having issues with certain aspects of a story, it's about to do with the story entirely. You seem like a smart person so I shouldn't have to explain why it's bad writing to have someone abused for 4/5 of a story and then have that person forgive the abuser in the final chapter and live happily ever after. I shouldn't have to explain to you why people won't enjoy an ending like that.

Shitsurakuen is the first and only yuri manga I've read, though it's a bit of an enigma when it comes the genre it fits under. It technically fits under the genres of: action, fantasy, harem, shoujoai, and shounen. I personally consider it to be rather comedic, too. I adore it, especially since it's fairly dark and messes with my head. Several details of the ending surprised me, as well. Shitsurakuen is one series that a person should finish before passing judgement. Trust me.

The ending of this manga was terrible. I don't recommend it.

Meh. I don't see how the ending is terrible, but whatever.

The girls were treated like dogs by the despicable guys for 4/5 of the manga's run! From emotional and physical abuse to sexual harassment. Most of them doing it just for the hell of it, others believing females were below them and thus should be treated like such! And in the end the girls that were physically and emotional abused on a daily just freaking forgive their abusers without a second thought and even start dating them! After making you hate the guys so much how can you not find the idea of these girls just letting "bygones be bygones" and pairing up with these scum repulsive!? The ending was a blatant display of Stockholm Syndrome! Even the Japanese readers lashed out and the author had to write another chapter changing the ending slightly. Only slightly, because even in that ending the girls were paired with the guys. By the end of this manga all the Yuri elements were destroyed. Even the main character was paired up with a guy instead of the girl she was in love with for the entire manga.

---------------------------

Recommended Yuri Mangas

1. Hanjuku Joshi
2. Ebisu-san and Hotei-san
3. Prism Higashiyama Shou
4. Yuri Hime Wildrose. (A massive collection of Yuri manga by many different authors featured in one volume. There are currently 6 volumes of Yuri Hime Wildrose)
5. Girl Friends
6. Kashimashi - Girl Meets Girl
7. Maka Maka
8. Gokujyo: Gokurakuin Joshikōryō Monogatari (Not really Yuri but it takes place in an all girls school and the girls do a lot of pervy yet hilarious stuff. Maybe it could be classified as Shoujo Ai. It's more comedy oriented than story and the art is great. A personal favorite.)

Even the main character was paired up with a guy instead of the girl she was in love with for the entire manga.

aeb0717wrote:What are you talking about? Sora and Koharu got married in the final chapter, and it's even mentioned that Sora obtained Apple and eliminated the male chauvinism in the school. Even before the 24th chapter was added, there was no true indication that Sora became paired with one of the guys. She was indifferent and focused on her first princess the entire time.

Chapter 23 is where the manga ended and Sora and Koharu didn't end up together then. It was implied she ended up with that other guy that helped her. The author then drew another short chapter to appease the fans due to backlash that I mentioned in my post.

aeb0717wrote:I don't find it repulsive, because the guys shown in the last chapter have apparently repent, and one particularly felt guilty about what all he did and had to be talked into attending the wedding (he thought that he didn't deserve to go). The guys have all ceased their previous behavior, and made peace with themselves and the girls. You may call it Stockholm Syndrome all you want, but have you considered that it may actually be everyone (including the guys) simply letting go and acquiring peace? If you wanted a revenge story instead of one about forgiveness, Shitsurakuen wasn't for you in the first place. Early on, the story's emphasis on fairy-tale knights and happy endings should have been a strong indication that you were in store for an unrealistically peaceful finale.

Are you serious? They repented? The treated the females like dogs for 3/4 of the mangas run and then said sorry! That all! Feeling guilty and saying sorry excuses them for sexually harassing and possibily raping the girls on a daily bases? Emotionally and physically abusing them? Letting go and acquiring peace? Do I have to go through every single disgusting thing I saw the boys do to the girls in this manga? It's Stockholm Syndrome no matter how you look at it! No one in their right element would willingly stay with a person that physically, emotionally and sexually abused them on a daily basis! If this manga was a fairy tale the boys would have all been killed and Sora would have brought them all happiness! That would be the fairy tail ending. An ending where the women succumb to Stockholm Syndrome and get together with the people that physically, emotionally and sexually abused them on a daily basis is an incredibly dark ending! This is why the author was forced to add the last chapter. Because she betrayed the expectations of the fans of the manga and ruined what could have been a very likeable series.

Well what you said was that the writers should not be free to write what they want. I don't say you don't have to accept as your opinion, but making them change what they write means little. It's like "this is how it ends" and then "this is how I want it to end". Watch Misery and see how it looks from your perspective. It is like the readers grabbing the writer by the balls and tell them what to write.

Xbox One? So you are comparing an entertainment center with a manga series? There are only two real companies in gaming now besides the PC market (which is vast), so it is considered more of a restricted market. You either choose PS4 or Xbox One. You can also pick up a Wii U, but it is not in the same fight as Sony and Microsoft as it watches from the sidelines. You also have Ouya and GameStick which are not considered part of the console wars just yet.

If you had more of a vast market of consoles in the same ring, I would say go ahead and make your console, I have these other 3 to choose from. Complaints would be far smaller because of the choices. Just like with Win8, Linux, and Apple's OS, which is why Microsoft gets flagged when they make something wrong with their OS.

If there were only 3 authors, I would probably rage about it, but there are hundreds upon millions of such. So, if I dislike it, I might review it poorly or give my critique. It is their choice to change it. If it ends and I want more I will express it, but if it sucks horribly I will not ask them to change the ending to suit my needs, I will just tell them why it sucks. It defeats the purpose of writing a novel if it already has an ending and you "have" to change the ending when it has already been published and sent out.

So, if I publish a book, and it sucks, I must change it by a law that other people set? If it ends, it ends. If you give in to pressure, your choice. If it sucks though and I think of it as the end of that series, then I make another and take in the criticism of what I did wrong.

You bore me by the way.....next? lol

You're taking my words out of context. Each time I mentioned a writer not being able to write whatever he wants I related it to fan appreciation. A writer is free to write whatever he wants so long as it doesn't impact negatively on the audience. Not only would he push himself to failure but also to infamy, losing the adoration of his fans. That's what happens when you have a following. They expect from you and if you don't deliver or deliver badly, you suffer backlash. If a piece of work is written badly it should be rewritten. That doesn't mean, "things don't go your way so change it" it simply means "badly written stories should be rewritten". As long as it is written well, people will appreciate many kinds of endings. So long as it's handled tastefully ofcourse. Not many people will be very welcoming to seeing a character the author has orchestrated for you to absolutely despise get a happily ever after.

Yes, I'm comparing the reaction of the fans of a manga series to the reaction of the possible consumers of the new Xbox. What about that doesn't correlate? And this isn't about the consoles you know? It's about how fans reacted to the system, prompting Microsoft to change in relation to your opinion that a person's work shouldn't be redone if it isn't well appreciated.

I don't understand you're point on the number of authors. The number of authors shouldn't dictate how well or badly the art or medium is question is appreciated. If it's manufactured well, it will be well received. If not you suffer negative feedback, lack of business and then bankruptcy. The ending of a story can make or break it. It's the most important part of the whole novel. If you mess that up, the credit of your writing is decreased substantially, not to mention leaving a sour taste given that the ending will be the last thing left to the readers from that novel.

It's not about giving into pressure. If you publish a book and it sucks, either be courageous and dutiful enough to rewrite it to improve or let if flunk and be famed as a terrible writer. Good luck getting any attention for future projects then. When you produce something for an audience, the audience's expectations are a priority. They're enjoyment and satisfaction will be what brings you fame, adoration and riches. Pridefully disregarding your audience will ultimately lead to downfall.

If I bore you then you must have the most uneventful life, if you have time to debate with a boring person.

Shitsurakuen is the first and only yuri manga I've read, though it's a bit of an enigma when it comes the genre it fits under. It technically fits under the genres of: action, fantasy, harem, shoujoai, and shounen. I personally consider it to be rather comedic, too. I adore it, especially since it's fairly dark and messes with my head. Several details of the ending surprised me, as well. Shitsurakuen is one series that a person should finish before passing judgement. Trust me.

The ending of this manga was terrible. I don't recommend it.

Meh. I don't see how the ending is terrible, but whatever.

The girls were treated like dogs by the despicable guys for 4/5 of the manga's run! From emotional and physical abuse to sexual harassment. Most of them doing it just for the hell of it, others believing females were below them and thus should be treated like such! And in the end the girls that were physically and emotional abused on a daily just freaking forgive their abusers without a second thought and even start dating them! After making you hate the guys so much how can you not find the idea of these girls just letting "bygones be bygones" and pairing up with these scum repulsive!? The ending was a blatant display of Stockholm Syndrome! Even the Japanese readers lashed out and the author had to write another chapter changing the ending slightly. Only slightly, because even in that ending the girls were paired with the guys. By the end of this manga all the Yuri elements were destroyed. Even the main character was paired up with a guy instead of the girl she was in love with for the entire manga.

I really see no point in getting so emotional over a manga, series (TV or novel), or movie. I have not read it yet, but there are many stories that I have found distasteful in a Manga or Anime release, but I do not call for the creator to change it. If it gives you emotion, then it should not be changed since that is a writer's main duty, which is to get people into the emotion of watching and/or reading something with personal reaction.

You're contradicting yourself. First you say you don't understand the reason to get so emotional over fiction then you go on to say a writer's main duty is to invoke emotion.

We are supposed to feel the emotions the writer is trying to portray in his work. That is the purpose or art. That has been the reason for admiring art for millenniums. Saying you don't understand a person getting emotional over art is like saying you don't understand the purpose of the art to begin with. That's an insult to the artist in it's own right.

If a piece of literature or art is distasteful, offensive and/or outright repulsive it should be changed. That's just common sense.

DonMoriartywrote:I see a lot of underground manga/anime that have it where a guy often rapes the girl, unemotional toward her, or has never met until the end of the series. Then during the last chapter or two they wind up with their captors, or the guy who basically spat at her, or even the guy she never seen till then. I do not expect them to change the outcome just to suit my needs. It is just a story within the writer's imagination, so be civilized and let the artists work.

You're the exact opposite of the kinds of readers a good writer appreciate. A good writer appreciates an audience that thinks and critiques his work. A writer appreciates an audience that recognizes his talents, the way he thinks, the emotions he demonstrates. People with your mind sets are the type to swallow whatever crap is pushed your way. Critical thinking is one of the fundamental traits humans need to survive!

DonMoriartywrote:The fact that even in a video game, it meant nothing to me for them to change the ending. It made no difference! Mass Effect 3, is the one I am talking about. If you feel accomplished at changing the artists' works just because you are unhappy, then I feel sorry for you.

You feel sorry for me? A person with no sense of critical thinking is pitying me? A person who can't identify good and bad story writing? That is the most hilariously insulting thing I've heard in quite some time. You seriously don't understand the purpose of a story do you?

DonMoriartywrote:In Kekkaishi, I was so ticked off that they did not explore the powers of that one little girl even more, the one that could see ghosts. I was overly disappointed to where I had a major distaste for it at the end, but it does not mean I want them to change it. Do I care? Yes, but I understand it is their work, not ours.

"It's their work not ours"? I can't believe I'm reading this. An author writes a book for people to enjoy not to be repulsed by it! He isn't writing he book for himself you know! He's writing to satisfy a medium of audience! saying it's his work is a selfish, immature and quite ignorant outlook. If this were the case people would be allowed to write all manner of tripe without being critique for it.

Ok then, so by your reason, let us say Passion of the Christ should have been banned or changed. If a work that has demons in it brings me to tears at how sinful the artists have been, I should call for an immediate change of the stories since Christians find it in bad taste. Dude, a critique and changing the person's artwork are two completely separate issues. At this point you are just talking down to me because I disagree with your logic that every piece of art needs to be changed because it shows rape that offends most mothers or a guy spitting on a girl.

I'm not talking down to you because you disagree with me. I'm talking down to you because propose the asinine reasoning that a persona work should be adored no matter how repulsive or flawed it is. Since you bring up PotC, when have non-religious people found the issues that occur in the Bible acceptable? Non-religious people of all kinds have outwardly condemned biblical stories cruel and repulsive.

DonMoriartywrote:So, if we criticize then we should make it law to change a person's work, just because the select few get offended. Does it change anything for you? Can you say it really makes a difference?

A select few? When you the only people you don't offend are people who think authors are free to write whatever they want and readers should just accept it you know you've done wrong! If a game, movie, book or any type of entertainment medium is widely unappreciated you're damn sure it should be changed! Ask Microsoft.

DonMoriartywrote:I say that you cannot get so emotional to send angry letters at the guy and punishing him for expressing his mind on paper. That is like me wanting them to change South Park to a show like Pokemon or Hamtaro where everyone laughs and there is absolutely nothing to get offended about. Contradiction? No, I was stating my point and you took everything out of the bounds of meaningful context.

The moment you open your work to the public, you open yourself to criticism from the world. People send fan letters, people send criticism, people send hate mail. That's how it is! The author of Shitsurakuen betrayed her fans expectations and they sent negative reviews of her choices and she changed it to appease them! When Microsoft announced the XBox One's features and it was widely discredited resulting in low preorders, they changed it to appease consumers! That's how things go!

What are you talking about changing South Park to Pokemon???? What does that have to do with bad writing?!?! South Park is a satiric show! It's purpose is to exude crude humor, and even this isn't a good example because the only people who are fans of South Park are the ones not offended by it. Which is usually the roughneck average Caucasian salary-man or their teen kids.

DonMoriartywrote:They should change GTA to exclude hookers, pimps, and a poor neighborhood. They should not use curse words or gun violence because it offends me.

You're completely blind to the point at hand aren't you?

DonMoriartywrote:And note, I was not talking down to you, but merely expressing my opinion and not saying that you were the one to pity. I don't know why you were to cross my words like that, but somehow you got confused about what I was saying, Mr. Dictator.

I was cross with you because you outright said you felt sorry for me and structured your whole argument in a passive aggressive way of mocking my reasons. I'm not so touchy as to snap at someone for no reason. You were very condescending.

DonMoriartywrote:Ok, and another thing. That last sentence just made it sound like it isn't his work. Yes, he does it to please a majority of the audience, but you have to realize he does not have to listen to the select few of the audience. I think because he writes it he should do what he wants to do with it. No business of mine to tell him what to do. If you find a distaste for it, force him to write something else. Or, if need be, send him commission.

You keep mentioning this "select few" as if to say a bad piece of art or literature would only be criticized by small few people. This isn't about having issues with certain aspects of a story, it's about to do with the story entirely. You seem like a smart person so I shouldn't have to explain why it's bad writing to have someone abused for 4/5 of a story and then have that person forgive the abuser in the final chapter and live happily ever after. I shouldn't have to explain to you why people won't enjoy an ending like that.

aeb0717wrote:What are you talking about? Sora and Koharu got married in the final chapter, and it's even mentioned that Sora obtained Apple and eliminated the male chauvinism in the school. Even before the 24th chapter was added, there was no true indication that Sora became paired with one of the guys. She was indifferent and focused on her first princess the entire time.

Chapter 23 is where the manga ended and Sora and Koharu didn't end up together then. It was implied she ended up with that other guy that helped her. The author then drew another short chapter to appease the fans due to backlash that I mentioned in my post.

aeb0717wrote:I don't find it repulsive, because the guys shown in the last chapter have apparently repent, and one particularly felt guilty about what all he did and had to be talked into attending the wedding (he thought that he didn't deserve to go). The guys have all ceased their previous behavior, and made peace with themselves and the girls. You may call it Stockholm Syndrome all you want, but have you considered that it may actually be everyone (including the guys) simply letting go and acquiring peace? If you wanted a revenge story instead of one about forgiveness, Shitsurakuen wasn't for you in the first place. Early on, the story's emphasis on fairy-tale knights and happy endings should have been a strong indication that you were in store for an unrealistically peaceful finale.

Oh, come on! They repented? The treated the females like dogs for 4/5 of the manga's run and then said sorry near the end! That all! Feeling guilty and saying sorry excuses them for sexually harassing and possibly raping the girls on a daily bases? They didn't know it was wrong to do that? Letting go and acquiring peace? Do I have to go through every single disgusting thing I saw the boys do to the girls in this manga to make you see just how terrible the ending is? It's Stockholm Syndrome no matter how you look at it! No one in their right element would willingly stay with a person that physically, emotionally and sexually abused them on a daily basis for how many years they've been at that school! If this manga was a fairy tale the boys would have all been killed and Sora would have brought the girls all happiness herself! That would be the fairy tale ending. An ending where the women succumb to Stockholm Syndrome and get together with the people that physically, emotionally and sexually abused them on a daily basis for months - years could be perceived as an incredibly dark ending if intended! This was no fairy tale ending, it was a repulsive half-assed attempt at a wrap up because clearly the author didn't know how what to do with the scum]bag boys at the end. This is why the author was forced to add the last chapter. Because she betrayed the expectations of the fans of the manga and ruined what could have been a very likeable series.

I'm fully aware of what went on in the series. I read the series within the last few days and I caught the 24th chapter earlier today, so please don't repeatedly feed me your overview of events. Also, I never said that the ending is like that of a fairy tail, and your perception of how a fairy tale version of this would end is speculation at best. I merely meant that the ending is fairly "fluffy" by lacking violent retribution against the males. I don't agree with you on the quality of the ending and the Stockholm Syndrome bit, and you're not about to change my mind. Don't get me wrong, because I did spend a good bit of time wanting to pound the heads in of alot of the boys; however, I have no problem accepting how it ended, because I expected something similar about halfway through. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't see Sora condoning the sort of vengeance that you and I would generally prefer. Not without Sora's personality being ripped apart and transformed into some sort of antihero vigilante, at least. I honestly find it refreshing that the author didn't pull that sort of thing, because it would then be too similar to many other stories that I've read.
I understand that you're mad about how Shitsurakuen ended and that you're passionate about the subject, but I'm getting the impression that you're partially taking it out on me.
Also, I nearly missed that you responded to my last post, because you lumped our chat with another conversation. If you wish to continue talking with me, would you kindly keep our discussion separate?

So if you and I read the manga, why do I have to explain to you why it's bad that they forgave them as though they had a minor bicker when they were abused for most of the manga? You certainly did say the ending was fairy tale-like. Or was that a sarcastic remark following the "fairy tail" typo I made? Anyway, yes I made an assumption on how the manga would be if it were really a fairy tale but that's an assumption based on how fairy tale stories truly are, plus it's fairly obvious it would be an assumption given that it doesn't exist so I don't see the point you were trying to make there. You must have some good hindsight because I sure as hell didn't expect the victims to be paired up with the abusers. And I think I can say the same for all the other fans who were displeased with the ending. I know if I saw that coming I'd have quite the manga then and there. You might be ok with the ending but clearly you're on the minority. It's most likely not intentional but the ending gave off some serious Stockholm Syndrome vibe, and if you can't see that then fine but as I said before, the author received quite a bit of backlash from Shitsurakuen fans. Enough so to prompt her to write chapter 24. Sora's personality doesn't need to stay the same all through. It's actually a good thing for her to change for the sake of character growth.

I was indeed upset about the ending of Shitsurakuen but I'm not taking it out on you at all. I don't even know you, and I read that manga at least a year and a half ago. You wrote something I didn't agree with so I responded, you replied back and from there it escalated into a debate. That's just how things tend to go on forums. Remember I only replied to you saying the ending was terrible so I don't recommend it. No more, no less. It's something I and many people didn't enjoy due to the ending, so I made the OP aware.

Actually, I never intended on having a silly debate over this manga in the first place. I recommended it and you seemingly went out of your way to argue with me. At least, that's what I felt at the time. You quoted my comment and I received a notification. As such, I felt that it would be polite to acknowledge your response, so I asserted that I disagree. I tried to communicate that, although I disagreed, I wasn't interested in arguing over the subject. I chose the wording of my initial comment to you to be rather non-confrontational, which is why I chose to start with a relaxed "meh" and end with "but whatever." Things became weird from there as I tried to explain that you and I don't see eye-to-eye, and as I became determined to assert that our disagreement doesn't necessarily mean that either you or I are wrong. I was genuinely confused about when you stated that Sora was paired with that one guy, though. I actually felt that their relationship was entirely one-sided on his end, and I didn't feel that they were actually paired together. I was unsure about whether or not chapter 24 was the ending you were talking about, so I brought the wedding up. There was a sizable chance that I hadn't read the "fixed" ending.

Early on, the story's emphasis on fairy-tale knights and happy endings should have been a strong indication that you were in store for an unrealistically peaceful finale.

It was Sora's dream to be a pure-hearted knight that saves the day and how she was constantly compared to them that I was talking about being "fairy-tale."

I think we turned this thread into a soap opera, by the way... How embarrassing. Admittedly, though, our debate is the most exciting conversation that I've had in months.

Well, that never occurred to me. You gave a reply and I guess I just thought it necessary to explain myself, so I did. I wasn't trying to be argumentative, it's just a habit I've developed from debating a lot. If it seemed like I held animosity towards you in my reply that was not the case. It was more intended for showing my distaste in the manga's final chapters. I didn't mean to come off aggressive and if I offended you I apologize. It's not easy portraying feelings in a written conversation.

Yes, I agree. The feelings that guy had for Sora was one-sided, which is why I wasn't concerned for it but chapter 23 implied they'd ended up together and like I said before, that was the original ending of Shitsurakuen. Fans were not happy and sent their feedback, prompting the author to write chapter 24 to slightly appease them by at least having Homura and Sora end up together. You must have read the manga after 24 was released and didn't know 23 was the original ending.

Looking back, we certainly have dramatized this thread from it's original purpose and since you had no intention of debating in the first place, we should just stop.

I've always been so interested in Yuri manga, though I've rarely found much that appeals to my own interest in the few I've picked up. I must say I have a major soft spot for Shiroi Heya no Futari, being the first Yuri I read. It's very much of it's time with a lot of very simple tropes that don't really work these days without coming off as cliche or stereotypical, but it still has a place in my heart. As several people before me have mentioned, Girl Friends was another fun read.