“If there is a God, He will have to beg my forgiveness.” — A phrase that was carved on the walls of a concentration camp cell during WWII by a Jewish prisoner.

This probably stemmed from a realization that if there is a god why would god allow so many people to suffer so badly.

The possibilities are if there is a god, then that god is either incompetent and has no power to prevent their suffering, or god is indifferent to their suffering, or is just plain cruel. If god created everything and is infallible, then god created the Nazis. And allowed for them to rise to power.

When the truth is most likely there is no god and the universe is indifferent to our existence.

If this person still believed in god after all they went through, then they are justified in expecting god beg for their forgiveness.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

I agree, which is why I included in my original comment "god is indifferent to their suffering, or is just plain cruel". I just pasted the first version of the Epicurus quote that I found. I have seen different versions, but the general idea is conveyed.

Not really. I've always thought that if God created everything, then it would necessarily have to be true neutral. If suffering is required to appreciate its opposite, as I believe it is, then God simply made things the way they'd need to be.

I should point out, I'm a non-theist myself, but a lot of us don't give the position of Devil's Advocate an honest argument.

Well, there's the off chance he's not almighty. Maybe there are limits to what can be done with regard to the mind? Maybe, like the Matrix, what you suggested was tried and people simply rejected it? Maybe experience isn't as malleable as we assume it to be? Perhaps things can't be fully appreciated unless there's context?

Or, how about this: that's how things are up in "Heaven", and the rest of creation was made for those who wanted something more? Something without constant permanence? Where there's weight to decisions precisely because we know there's an end at some point? Where free agency isn't just a theory, but the reality for those within this universe's domain?

I think most theists will argue that God's scope if much grander than our conception, and that it's selfish to hold your single life, which He has given you in the first place, against the intentions of God

Then god is indifferent to our existence. And if he is not indifferent then god still created a universe that appears neutral to our existence. This is god's creation in their words is is not?

If they say that god considers us insignificant and we matter not in his plans then that is an unprovable assertion. They have no imperical evidence to bring to the table. We must stick to what we can prove and quit guessing at the mind of an eternal creator they have no evidence for.

Its amazing how they can accept an eternal "creator". But not an eternal universe with no creator. They say there was a creator, and when you say who created this creator? They respond with god is eternal. I respond with "You accept something can be eternal... then why can you not accept an eternal existing cycle of universes with no god? Why insert a god? That is pure assertion."

We need to stick to what we can prove. There is nothing wrong with making hypothesis, but there is a difference between making a hypothesis and making an unprovable statement and asserting it as fact. Then they will say it is one possibility. It is at this moment unprovable no matter how it's presented.

Our time is better spent with ideas that better our situation and not with theologians wasting their time with ancient scribblings from the bronze age like these ancient ignorant peasants have some secret insight into a god that they had no proof for. This what theologians do... "lets look to these ignorant assertions made by people from 2000 plus years ago for answers about a creator that may or may not exist." It ridiculous.

That would argue that he is not the living god that answers your prayers then. You can't have it both ways. Either he takes an active interest in your life and he answers your prayers, or he doesn't. He can't just be concerned about bigger things and then help you complete that hail Mary pass in the final seconds to win the football game. Well, that is, unless he just really likes football.

My grandfather was held in a concentration camp during World War 2. He was Jewish and used to be somewhat religious but after that, he lost faith. He thought that no god would let him and his people suffer such horrors.

Exactly. I've never understood how, if there is a god, why is he such a jerk, in a light way of putting it. Either that, or there is no god. That may sound fairly close minded, but it makes perfect sense.

"When the truth is most likely there is no god and the universe is indifferent to our existence."

You will see "most likely" is the key word here. A statement of probability, not absolute certainty.

When debating the religious you have to make them question why they believe. They believe a god exists. You then make them question why the world is the way it is, they typically say because god created it. Then they have to accept god allows for evil. Easy to understand.

I personally believe the probability of a god existing in the sense of all the major religions today believe is extremely small. But I can't disprove a god no more than I can disprove unicorns.

I also believe a lot suffering is due to human activity and the natural world in general. The religious do no think this way. This is when you have to apply logic to the existence of a god and the question of evil. If you have no interest in this, then that is fine, but get over yourself.

The whole thing is not just my opinion, but a logically thought out position on the question of evil. That has existed since well before the time of "Christ". Epicurus was first credited with addressing the question of evil.

Using his line of logic you can analyze the possibility of a god as the christians and other religions state god to be, and that god's relationship to the existance of evil. When I say these are the possibilities, I am making a statement of probabilty in regards to the holocaust victims thought process. A statement of probability leaves room for a margin of error.

You can have an infinite number of possibilites for a god, or the reasons a god would have for allowing the universe to be the way it is. Going through every single possibilty is unrealistic. I was applying the logic to the original post of a jew suffering during the holocaust and expecting god to beg for his forgivness. We have to stick to generalizations of the possiblities because we do not have the time to go through all possible scenarios.

No matter how you bring up the question of the existence of a god and the existence of evil you can apply this logic. If you would like to continue discussing the infinite possibilities of a god and the existence of evil, we can certainly do that.

I also have no problem with people's belief like you state. The only time I have issue is when they are forced on people. And legislation is based on illogical scripture and not reason. The moment you try to force beliefs I will shit all over your beliefs with logic. And if you are done making assumptions about what I believe feel free to adress any point you like.

Basic definition of God is that God is good which means everything that God allows to happen is good

I see no reason for this argument. Look at what we 'created in his image' do to those who cannot defend themselves against us. We utterly crush them.

God, being all-powerful, would have no reason to be good if he didn't feel like it. We are just his creatures, he made us. Why would he be good to us? We're a mere toy. At the same time the notion that god would require us to answer to him is complete and utter nonsense. "I created you, now you owe me." We asked for nothing, we have to endure this bullshit every day. And not only that but we also owe him an explanation? Seriously?

well soon, were gona need a Whole lot more cows to keep up whit the Food demand, so Guess in my contry theyr gona remove a few Mountains\hills to create more flatland and use the stones to fill over some in the Ocean to also create more flatland. its quite clever realy.

This is very similar to my thoughts when I first entertained the possibility that there was no God. "Why are people worshipping him? Does ultimate power actually require devotion? If such a being offered neither reward nor punishment, would it still be something I 'worshipped?'" My first dip into agnosticism came when I rejected the idea that powerfull gods needed anything from me. It led me to the conclusion that the very concept of gods was false- even if beings of such power exist, or existed.

If God knows what we are thinking, then why do we pray to him? If my kid has cancer, God should know that I want her to be cured. So why do i have to drop to my knees and pray for it? Does he just want to see me beg for it?

Well, God doesn't need anything from us. Why would, an omnipotent and omniscient God need anything from anyone? But, here's the question, if, God does not need anything from us why do we exist? I feel like there is a big misconception of religion and its root ideas. Many people have religion and worship God, but they worship so that they could have better lives. They beg for countless hours so that their pain and suffering goes away. I don't believe that's a religion. It's a shamanism in disguise. I think we have to realize as a whole that this world eventually becomes meaningless. I think the only way to make something meaningful thing in this materialistic world is by believing in God because once something is temporary(like your life or this world we're living in), it becomes meaningless. So, I think, (in christian's perspective) the only way we could reach salvation is to completely acknowledge that we are worthless and we should be thankful that even as worthless as we became to be, God is still forgiving and that is all done under the God's love for his creations.

Yeah, as a once an Atheist, I completely understand that and even after converting to Christianity, I still have doubts every now and then. I could be saying that I am ignorant to believe this but I refuse to believe that our lives are pointless and religions are mere imaginations because it doesn't explain a lot of things with that mind when it comes to thinking about the purpose of life. I always asked, as an atheist, "why not end it all with a bullet in my head? I won't even realize that I am dead" also, "why look forward for days to come only to realize that the life becomes harder and suffering for me?". I feel like religion helped me to answer these questions in a nondestructive way and I also think there is nothing higher than what I think of "higher being" because that is just what the Bible says so and it is the word of God. So I trust not because I am afraid but because I have this gut feeling that I am making the right choice.

The thing is God is an entity existing and thinking on such a level that we can't understand it.It's like comparing a human to an ant. The cognitive power, it's potential for emotion, what pain is to them, it's so small to us.What is the suffering of million of humans when you are thinking on a scale of billions of years ?

I came to the comments, also looking for a source and couldn't find anything sourcy with a quick search. Not to say that the sentiment doesn't carry a message. If this were documented, I'd be very interested to see it. Quite a piece of atheist history.

The history of the camps after liberation is pretty crazy. A lot of the old wooden buildings were burned or destroyed, sometimes by the prisoners, sometimes by people trying to prevent outbreaks from disease, and sometimes because people didn't want to remember.

Archeologists are actually still excavating the camps to find out their layouts, and other buildings. Hell, they're still trying to find all of the mass graves that the allies made to bury the dead. Sometimes those mass graves weren't marked, and some were just 'ad hoc' put together at the last minute.

Hey, thanks for the more information about this topic, I just posted that because in another thread about this same statement some time ago, there was an guy from Poland that said that when he was younger his school had an trip to one of those camps, and while he was there he saw that phrase carved into the wall.

I'd respond to that: You can actually see the Sun, you don't "believe" in it. You can interact with people in love or witness love taking place. Just because those two observable facts can disappear and we KNOW they still exist doesn't give any weight to his belief. It's a logical fallacy. I believe it is Deductive Fallacy but I'm not sure.

Somewhere along the way it stopped being about personal salvation and more about ensuring the salvation of everyone.. I for one am glad that I won't live forever.. What would be the point of living then :3

Its poetry. The person who wrote it did not set it forward as an arguement or as proof of anything. No idea why you brought up fallacies. This person understood that lack of sunshine, or lack of love, is temporary and that they still exist somewhere.

I was reading yesterday about how 9/11 affected religious people. I was surprised to learn that some rejected their religion as a result. Then I read about 'the problem of evil', interesting : http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

There's three things that can fuck with my emotions about the holocaust.

Watching Night and Fog bright and early at 8:00 am on a Monday morning for a history class recitation. You don't just spend the entire class time watching those scenes and then go about your school day. I just wanted to go home after that.

The piles of shoes at the Holocaust museum in D.C.

The scratch marks on the concrete walls of Auschwitz 'shower rooms'. The ones that could only have been made by fingernails.

I went to the Holocaust Museum in Atlanta and there was this photo of a women being shot in a field....and it was just so....why. I still can't wrap my head around his. She wasn't doing anything. You're in a field, middle of no where, and you are your buddies just casually murder this girl and take a snapshot of it to show the folks back home. Like how does this just become an ok for people.

I'm in no way shape or form jewish, just cheap, but when I read the Jewish Defense League's motto of "Never Again", thanks to Eazy-E of all people, I was deeply touched like Eazy allegedly was. It honestly makes me have some hope for humanity....

I think one of the most telling things about the holocaust was that before there were camps, the nazis were just using gas trucks. One of the reasons the nazis stopped using them was because it was effecting the morale and psychology of the SS units that were killing so many thousands in such an intimate way. The SS units were actually beginning to break down because they were killing too many people, so the nazis invented a system that would prevent the normal human repulsion to not massacre people. It shows you that the people who committed these murders were not born monsters, they were trained, commanded, taught, led, and nursed to be monsters

It's a joke man. If you've ever met me, looking at me, you'd swear up and down I'm jewish. It's actually been a problem in my current location because random people have assumed I'm jewish and start talking to me in "yiddish" (I think that's what it is) and then I have to say I'm not jewish, and then they seemingly always say something back (which I never understand) in yiddish and then seemingly ignore as a person. It's weird.

"This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us." -Rorschach

This is a great example of why all powerful all knowing god concepts are such a bad thing. As many before me have argued if god allows the holocaust to happen, millions of children to die each year etc.

Than he is either weak or evil.....

We are far better off on a practical level saying we humans have total responsibility to fix problems to stop genocide etc.

An analogy, if as i grew into an adult my parents still tried to rescue me from all of life's challenges, what the hell am i going to learn. Nothing......its co-dependent bull crap.

Well why is relying on a deity to solve problems any different, we have to fix it ourselves. This makes us more moral not less moral because ALL responsibility is on us

Childhood cancer? Leprosy? Bugs whose SOLE PURPOSE IN LIFE is to paralyze (but leave conscious/feeling) other animals and lay maggots in them, etc?

If (as is true) the world comes from physical laws and developed from simple to complex, these are understandable.

If, as a sickening number of people believe, the world and everything in it was created, then a god/gods INTENTIONALLY spent their time designing the most sadistic and cruel things possible for no reason than to entertain themselves.

If I created a computer simulation with beings that became sentient I would definitely give a crap about them. Claiming to know that the mind of God would be to be an indifferent piece of shit is exactly the same as claiming he is a loving being, pure speculation and a projection of yourself on a fictional creator of the universe.

If I created a computer simulation with beings that became sentient I would definitely give a crap about them.

lol, right. With the mind of a human who invented AI comparing this feat to being an all knowing, all seeing, all caring god. Hubris is a bitch.

Claiming to know that the mind of God would be to be an indifferent piece of shit

I'm not claiming - we're told that god exists and see the proof of his care and love for us in the atrocities and ambivalence of the world. The world is FULL of evidence of this unconcern. You are the one making the claim to know it to be different with no proof to the contrary... or do you look at rainbows and say 'OMGZ guys! Look how pretty! Only a god could make that!!1'

How do you know who or what to ask? How do you keep up with every evolving form of communication? How do you not get bored after 9 billion years of staring at non-sentient matter floating around?

My point I guess is that if you create a simulation like our universe you just kick it off with a big bang and it becomes incredibly complex, unrelateable and unpredictable. There's just no way to keep up with everything that happens and you might even die before anything evolves that could possibly attempt to talk back.

The foundation of Christianity believe is that god is a benevolent being, that is why humanity should worship him. If he doesn't give a shit about us, we shouldn't give a shit about god either. Therefore according to your view, there shouldn't be a religion at all, because doesn't matter what you do, god don't give a fuck.