So I have to ask - how is being gay, just as sinfull as divorcing? I never really read the bible - so stick with me, but for me (as a none-relgious person) divorce and being gay - is no wherer near the same.
It's not like someone who is homosexual can change who he is - just as little as I can change my natural hair colour or skin - or the fact that I am hetreosexual.
Divorce is a choice - homosexuality is not.

There is so much wrong and corruption in the church nowadays it's just sad. I'm sure God (if there is one) never wanted the church to end up what it is today. To me it seems the church is turning into a business rather than a place where people can come together who believe in the same faith. For example - I stepped out of the church a few years ago - because for one, I am not faithful and I would really prefer not being defined by my religion. Another reason was because I don't want to pay church taxes. Now I'll never be allowed to marry in a church (I don't want to, because I'm not religious) - because I don't pay my yearly taxes to the church. How messed up is that? Since when did religion become a money business?

"FRAN - The New Testament really does not provide any direct guidance for understanding and making judgments about homosexuality in the modern world.

To the extent that it does talk about homosexuality, the New Testament appears to be talking about only certain types of homosexuality, and it speaks on the basis of assumptions about homosexuality that are now regarded as highly dubious. Perhaps, then, we could paraphrase what the New Testament says about homosexuality as follows: If homosexuality is exploitive, then it is wrong; if homosexuality is rooted in idolatry, then it is wrong; if homosexuality represents a denial of oneâ€™s own true nature, then it is wrong; if homosexuality is an expression of insatiable lust, then it is wrong. But we could say exactly the same thing about heterosexuality, couldnâ€™t we?"

This. This. This, and this.

I like how it was skipped over...

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Actually Barbara! its been addressed over and over. Please read this carefully.

Romans 1:22-27
"21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorâ€”who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."

Fran's arguement does not get around that homosexual acts are described as 'shameful and unnatural'. The motivation for them does not matter.

Now I'll never be allowed to marry in a church (I don't want to, because I'm not religious) - because I don't pay my yearly taxes to the church. How messed up is that? Since when did religion become a money business?

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What? Churches there require a "tax" to attend? I'd love to see how they come to that conclusion.

Tithing is supposed to be an act of worship, not an act of force. Its a shame to see so many 'churches' shooting themselves in the foot.

There is so much wrong and corruption in the church nowadays it's just sad. I'm sure God (if there is one) never wanted the church to end up what it is today. To me it seems the church is turning into a business rather than a place where people can come together who believe in the same faith. For example - I stepped out of the church a few years ago - because for one, I am not faithful and I would really prefer not being defined by my religion. Another reason was because I don't want to pay church taxes. Now I'll never be allowed to marry in a church (I don't want to, because I'm not religious) - because I don't pay my yearly taxes to the church. How messed up is that? Since when did religion become a money business?

Also Fran - I love you for your posts in this thread.

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Say WHAT?

I have heard of a church here that keeps a public record board for who has paid enough in tithes but that is seriously frowned upon in most churches (at least in my church... half the time we, the congregation, remind our pastor to pass the offering plate). I can't imagine that the above is a normal thing

and now you aren't allowe to marry in a church? I don't understand what church taxes are. That IS crazy and WRONG and not the norm (at least not here). Our church requires absolutely NOTHING from you to attend and whether you come every sunday or once in a blue moon or only one time in your whole life everyone (not many... only about 30 of us in the congregation lol) everyone will welcome you like you are family and we've known you all our life. THAT is what we were searching for in a church. small, intimate, family.

I don't know what's so crazy about church taxes- it's how the churches get about 80% of their income. You choose to be a member, you pay for it. You don't want to be a member, you don't. You can still go in and visit the church, etc., you just can't or won't be married and such.

Add me to the list of people who have never experienced a fee or "tax" for attending/being a member of a church. And I got married in a church without said fees, we just paid the rate for the clergyperson's time and rented the space.

I don't know what's so crazy about church taxes- it's how the churches get about 80% of their income. You choose to be a member, you pay for it. You don't want to be a member, you don't. You can still go in and visit the church, etc., you just can't or won't be married and such.

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100% untrue in every church I've been a member. All offerings and financial contributions are voluntary. Sure, we keep records, but for tax purposes (we provide a statement to all members so they can deduct the charitable contribution on their income taxes at the end of the year) and for expense budgeting for the coming year (even for churches, electricity, heating fuel, etc. isn't free). If a member wants to get married, hold a funeral, hold another event using our fellowship hall, it's permitted no matter what (if any) funds they have given in the past. Non-members of the church can certainly use the facility as well, but we charge a small fee (and are appropriately taxed on it) to cover our expenses (electricity, water, the custodial staff who has to open the building and clean up after, etc.).

And realistically, member contributions make up way more than 80% of our budget. There are some investments that yield a small amount of interest and some facility usage fees, but over 90% of the "income" our church receives is from voluntary member contributions.

In any church where I've been a member, we have never refused access to any member regardless of their donation status.

I hear people say, "The church is corrupt" and "the church does this" and "the church does that", but my personal experience is quite the opposite.

Germany is one of the only countries where there are church taxes. Now while I think it's fine, that if you don't pay taxes, you don't get to marry in the church ect ect. - I don't like the concept of the churches recieving taxes as a whole.

100% untrue in every church I've been a member. All offerings and financial contributions are voluntary. Sure, we keep records, but for tax purposes (we provide a statement to all members so they can deduct the charitable contribution on their income taxes at the end of the year) and for expense budgeting for the coming year (even for churches, electricity, heating fuel, etc. isn't free). If a member wants to get married, hold a funeral, hold another event using our fellowship hall, it's permitted no matter what (if any) funds they have given in the past. Non-members of the church can certainly use the facility as well, but we charge a small fee (and are appropriately taxed on it) to cover our expenses (electricity, water, the custodial staff who has to open the building and clean up after, etc.).

And realistically, member contributions make up way more than 80% of our budget. There are some investments that yield a small amount of interest and some facility usage fees, but over 90% of the "income" our church receives is from voluntary member contributions.

In any church where I've been a member, we have never refused access to any member regardless of their donation status.

I hear people say, "The church is corrupt" and "the church does this" and "the church does that", but my personal experience is quite the opposite.

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That is how our church is too but we are too small for others to want to rent our facility so we don't have that fee to add into our "income". It is all conpletely funded by our congregations charitable donations and since we are so small that money mostly goes to bills fOr the church and a "stash" of money in case of emergencies. We are too small to be corrupt and power hungry lol

Actually Barbara! its been addressed over and over. Please read this carefully.

Romans 1:22-27
"21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorâ€”who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."

Fran's arguement does not get around that homosexual acts are described as 'shameful and unnatural'. The motivation for them does not matter.

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It also describes lustful heterosexual relationships the same way...

Which is why I said that LOVING homosexual relationships are not condemned in the Bible.

The passage you posted doesn't even condemn homosexuality. It condemns "shameful acts" with other men. There are instances in the bible where a man can commit a "shameful act" with a woman. That does not make heterosexuality a sin, any more than it makes homosexulity a sin.

I'm not going to try and convince someone who thinks their religion finds homosexuality a sin that they're wrong. As long as they understand that their belief stems from their religion and don't use that to try and push for laws based off that religious belief then I'm completely cool with them.

I would like to think that people who are religious would have enough respect for their religious freedom that they would fight for freedom from religion in the law.