Hal: In the poll thread, I choose the blue button. (Burn Forever) I believe that the red button (Worship) to be just another shade of blue.

If the gods of the bible were shown to be one god and exist, then it would be all knowing, as well as a cruel callous creature.

Being an all knowing creature of infinite power, it would know whether I was sincere or not. So the red button (Worship) would not be an option. Which leaves us with the blue (Burn Forever). I made the choice (Though it’s not really a choice them both being blue an all) not because I’m a bad arse, but because I'm being honest to myself and at the same time telling this bible-god, I won't pretend to worship him so he can send me to eternal torture, anyway. I will go to my fate being able to hold my head high, and retain my dignity.

Anyhow with no stimuli, just pain in a few years, maybe months, I would be insane anyway. And the torture wouldn't matter, it would for all intents and purposes, lose its effect, It would become normality.The body may be there, but the mind would have left long ago.

Yes the rational option would be to red (Worship), but as said a creature of infinite power, it would know whether I was sincere or not.

Yea, I know the argument. But I still would push the damn blue button! I guess I'm satisfied with my reasoning and don't need to change it. I mean even if my reasoning was flawed, which I don't believe it is, why invest more time in figuring out the flaw in my reasoning for a situation that will never occur? I'm just not that interested I guess.

I think it's because this is the discussion/argument we are having right now? If you don't care then why discuss it at all whether it's your flaw or others people's flaws at all and go as far as making a poll?

Quote from: Nam

WE as atheists choose not to, and in the Christians mind we are going to Hell. In their mind, that's our choice.

You would have to believe in god, and the bible god to actually choose between going to hell or heaven. Please do not use "WE", please do not speak for me, but since I do not believe in this god or hell at all this choice does not exist for me. If you believe that you are making this choice, aka believe that the choice exist, then you are not an atheist.I am. So I, as an atheist did not choose anything.

Now, when the bible god is PROVEN to exist hence no one on earth can possibly be an atheist anymore and I am forced to make a choice? That's another story.

Quote from: Nam

No, it isn't unrealistic 'cause by being atheists that's exactly what "we're" doing at the moment.

It has nothing to do with being atheists.It's a hypothetical question. Asking you what you would do if you saw a flying apple isn't asking you to believe apples can fly.You said "I never responded that way", but you are responding exactly that way.

Quote from: nam

I'd still choose the latter. Why? 'Cause fuck him.

Oh I believe you. I believe probably many people would choose the latter too. But I am on Hal's side that the people doing so are......out of their mind.. or.. not too bright.If you choose to kiss his ass, you are pretty much still free to do anything else, you can put the rest of the time into good use. But if you choose the latter, not only would you be in a lot of pain, but you would have wasted a lot of your time not being able to do anything.So the person pretty much made a choice that does not in anyway benefit himself or anyone, they also choose to waste their time to be in pain.

Quote from: beratberts

Yes the rational option would be to red (Worship), but as said a creature of infinite power, it would know whether I was sincere or not.

I believe that Hal explains this several times that when he says "worship" it's through action but not thoughts, rather you are sincere or not is irrelevant.

Yea, I know the argument. But I still would push the damn blue button! I guess I'm satisfied with my reasoning and don't need to change it. I mean even if my reasoning was flawed, which I don't believe it is, why invest more time in figuring out the flaw in my reasoning for a situation that will never occur? I'm just not that interested I guess.

I think it's because this is the discussion/argument we are having right now? If you don't care then why discuss it at all whether it's your flaw or others people's flaws at all and go as far as making a poll?

Well to be fair, what I meant was I'm not interested to the level the person I was replying to was expecting me to be interested. I have varying degrees of interest, I cared enough about this topic to debate it for 13 pages, create a poll to see how others felt, and enough to reevaluate and change my own opinion once I realize I was wrong. I think I've shared enough interest to not warrant any criticism for the level of my interest.

Logged

Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Hal: In the poll thread, I choose the blue button. (Burn Forever) I believe that the red button (Worship) to be just another shade of blue.

Yes the rational option would be to red (Worship), but as said a creature of infinite power, it would know whether I was sincere or not.

I say you are a liar. You will choose red if given HAL's options in reality, Liar. "Burn Forever" . . . Huh, people that sit at their computers typing all day aren't the best candidates to withstand a "Burning Forever". HAL and I see right through your stupid bullshit, you Goddamn liar.

How many would choose the raping over ass kissing? If you think you won't crave in for even just for 7 days, what makes you think you would for eternity?

I'd still choose the latter. Why? 'Cause fuck him.

Sentient beings are going to choose what they think will make them the most happy or the least unhappy. There comes a time in life when you just have to accept things the way they are, and push that red button. It will make you the least unhappy. Your argument is along the lines of jumping naked off a cliff in rebellion against the laws of the universe, just because the laws of the universe state that you are unable to fly. Well boo fucking hoo, Nam. Boo fucking hoo.

Either play nice with HAL's hypothetical and push the red button[1], or . . .

Yea, I know the argument. But I still would push the damn blue button! I guess I'm satisfied with my reasoning and don't need to change it. I mean even if my reasoning was flawed, which I don't believe it is, why invest more time in figuring out the flaw in my reasoning for a situation that will never occur? I'm just not that interested I guess.

I think it's because this is the discussion/argument we are having right now? If you don't care then why discuss it at all whether it's your flaw or others people's flaws at all and go as far as making a poll?

Quote from: Nam

WE as atheists choose not to, and in the Christians mind we are going to Hell. In their mind, that's our choice.

You would have to believe in god, and the bible god to actually choose between going to hell or heaven. Please do not use "WE", please do not speak for me, but since I do not believe in this god or hell at all this choice does not exist for me. If you believe that you are making this choice, aka believe that the choice exist, then you are not an atheist.I am. So I, as an atheist did not choose anything.

Now, when the bible god is PROVEN to exist hence no one on earth can possibly be an atheist anymore and I am forced to make a choice? That's another story.

Quote from: Nam

No, it isn't unrealistic 'cause by being atheists that's exactly what "we're" doing at the moment.

It has nothing to do with being atheists.It's a hypothetical question. Asking you what you would do if you saw a flying apple isn't asking you to believe apples can fly.You said "I never responded that way", but you are responding exactly that way.

Quote from: nam

I'd still choose the latter. Why? 'Cause fuck him.

Oh I believe you. I believe probably many people would choose the latter too. But I am on Hal's side that the people doing so are......out of their mind.. or.. not too bright.If you choose to kiss his ass, you are pretty much still free to do anything else, you can put the rest of the time into good use. But if you choose the latter, not only would you be in a lot of pain, but you would have wasted a lot of your time not being able to do anything.So the person pretty much made a choice that does not in anyway benefit himself or anyone, they also choose to waste their time to be in pain.

Quote from: beratberts

Yes the rational option would be to red (Worship), but as said a creature of infinite power, it would know whether I was sincere or not.

I believe that Hal explains this several times that when he says "worship" it's through action but not thoughts, rather you are sincere or not is irrelevant.

I'm not speaking for you, I was generalizing by using "we".

Get over yourself.

-Nam

Logged

Quote from: David Garrett Arnold

there are oceans of words aged in prayer,against geometric lines, and cloudbeaten skies;credulous allure—slowly captivated in hearts fair—trees and flowers bloomed in grace upon one's eyes.

You know lotanddaughters ... one really shouldn't go around calling people liars. Even though I changed my mind about the OP it doesn't mean my original statements are lies. They way you are coming across is really condescending and fan boyish. I'm not sure if that's your intent or not but it's spread across so many different threads I figured I would be "that guy" and say something about it. Hope you don't mind my honesty, it's a flaw I know.

Logged

Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

You know lotanddaughters ... one really shouldn't go around calling people liars. Even though I changed my mind about the OP it doesn't mean my original statements are lies. They way you are coming across is really condescending and fan boyish. I'm not sure if that's your intent or not but it's spread across so many different threads I figured I would be "that guy" and say something about it. Hope you don't mind my honesty, it's a flaw I know.

Yeah, I see your point. I was a little too far over-the-top on my accusations. Ever since I read this inspiring post by sun_king, my outlook changed 180 degrees, LOL:

I can't stand this topic because the way it's formatted, I basically can have no argument. Just because you state the evil bible-god-queen is in fact real, and you will in fact be tortured should you not do what he/she says. I can't insert any 'don't worry - here's logics and here's why this won't happen and here's how to overcome your fear.'

The scenario you posited here is absolutely awful.

However, I think it's important that you brought it up. As you can see, everybody here basically knows my name if they want. I'm not 'hiding behind the internet'. But when at first I tried to argue as I would with religion, when I considered the hypothetical there really is no choice...

That said - since there is really no choice and the obvious is black-and-white, I'm surprised to see just how much of an argument this became. It shows some flaws in reasoning just with people arguing against the hypothetical. it shows that we are all just human, and in the face of an omni-god, there is no other alternative. That makes this interesting, indeed.

But would also like to state - this is just a hypothetical. I hope that doesn't scare you guys back to religion... (edited)

« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 12:20:06 AM by jeremy0 »

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"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger.""If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me. Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

You said "we as atheist", I am an atheist, so how am I not being included? Why are you generalizing when you could simply use "I" instead of "we"? I understand now that you are not trying to speak for everyone but was it not reasonable to think that you were? Why are you telling me to get over myself?

From my understanding, atheist means non believe in gods, not anti-bible god, so based on that, how can an "atheist" not believing in hell/god/heaven can still make a choice? "There is no such thing as apple but I choose to eat it." <--- How does this actually work? Please explain.

Late to the discussion i see but whatever...I would personally rather be eternally tortured than to pussy out and worship a celestial dictator that only wishes to make it's ''creations'' suffer and wishes to exploit them.

Because that's the general characteristic of any god/s according to scriptures.This being under the circumstances that there's definite evidence that God exists.

"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger.""If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me. Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

I just don't see the point in asking a question you answered yourself already.

I didn't say you didn't believe what you said - I said I didn't believe you. You'd have to convince me otherwise with more than what you have said. I don't think you have thought about it long and hard enough.

The only being that can be perfect is God. Since we humans have such a narrow limited intellect, even our definition of perfection is also limited. So how can we humans properly judge who is "perfect" and who isn't?

The only being that can be perfect is God. Since we humans have such a narrow limited intellect, even our definition of perfection is also limited. So how can we humans properly judge who is "perfect" and who isn't?

I can see that you are not a Christian, which religion do you follow?

In Christianity, God commands us thus: "1st Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?1st Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?."

So you see Christians are a little more perfect that angels. We know this because Christians say they will judge angels.

As you are unfamiliar with the Christian Bible, let me quote you the following verses:

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

You see, Christians think they are the Sons of God. Do you know anyone else who was "The Son of God"? Yes, that's right, Jesus was the Son of God.

Was Jesus perfect? Was the Son of God perfect? Are the Sons of God Perfect?

Christians think they are up there with the best of them. They are really silly.

Whatever religion you are, perhaps you will let us have your thoughts.

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Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

On reflection, I think Hal is completely correct. I think perhaps the problem lies in that the hypothetical was TOO hypothetical. So I scaled it down.

Imagine....you feel a blow to your head, and it all goes dark. When you wake, you are strapped in a chair in a darkened room, and standing before you is Hannibal Lechter.....or Dahmer, or West, or whoever. Whatever, you know that this is a sociopath who has no problem inflicting pain on his victims. To his side is a tray full of torture implements. He points to the tools and speaks. "Tell me how great I am, how valid my 'work' is, or I'll use these on you."

When I framed the hypothetical in these terms, all of a sudden I had no problem 'pressing the red button', perhaps because it was something that (through movies and books and TV) I eally could envisage happening.

Sure - I loathe his 'work', and everything he is. But would there be any gain at all in telling him that, alone and helpless and with no sign of rescue? I can't see any - and that includes my biggest stumbling block about "how can you speak against something that - in the crunch - you would support?"

Before the crack on the head, before the time of crunch, we have got the freedom to oppose and to speak out. Indeed, if I were in a room with Lechter, unbound and capable of action, I would do my best to take him down. Its the point at which all options are closed, where it's real and now and the final point of decision, that I feel there is no shame in pressing red, and nothing at all to be gained by pressing blue.

I grok where Hal is coming from. And I've gained some peace of mind from my lesser hypothesis. You can - should - do your damndest to try to track down and incarcerate the serial torture/killer and prevent him spreading his evil....but ther is no shame in stroking his ego when he has you at his mercy.

Where there is something to be gained....then, there is a reason to try to hold out. But that's where the parallels with things like resisting the Gestapo fail. In that situation, be resisting for an hour or a day has some point. It gives time for your friends to move the base, execute the attack, get the plans on the boat, and every moment could count. You can be brave and grit your teeth and try to survive and - after a while - cry "uncle" and it stops and you will have acheived something by taking "some" pain. In the god or killer hypotheticals, not only does it not stop when you cry uncle, but there is no gain in pressing blue at all. It's the everything-path doing it who doesn't care about your pride and who will be unaffected by any displays on your part, so tell him what he wants from the moment you are in his power.

There is that. That also leads to a possible fifth column strategy. If overt resistance is pointless, sometimes being subtle can pay off. For example, carefully working on loosening the straps without being noticed.

There is that. That also leads to a possible fifth column strategy. If overt resistance is pointless, sometimes being subtle can pay off. For example, carefully working on loosening the straps without being noticed.