dianagrace wrote:The Islamic Jihad is an entirely different philosophy regarding Islam and their need to dominate the universe. The Islamic Jihad is a truly religious and everlasting war. Islam will not rest until it has made the world a Dar al Islam, a world of Peace.

That's why I totally fear Islam. It would probably be a good idea for me to learn classical Arabic, if only so I could say 'Wait, that's not what the verse says', but generally I'm not a fan of debating people using their books.

Dianagrace, you also raise some good points about how religion wasn't the *only* thing that caused problems. Things are always so complicated, and there's certainly enough blame to go around. To say nothing of the fact that the idea of religion as a separate cultural force really only got going in the 17th century (in the West) anyway.... so, I will apologize for monologizing history. Not all religious stuff is bad, of course. It's only when the ideas that are used are those extrapolated to mean 'We are in the right, anyone who refuses must be stopped' that things get really nasty. That it can happen again frightens me, and if I do see that it is happening in small ways, I will work to try and stop it. And I know there are religious people who will do the same- at least in the U.S., probably in Canada.

I never posted any comment about Islamic Jihad. Since I've been Christian my whole life, I wouldn't be familiar with this concept. I'm sure you've misquoted someone.

I just made a comment that people can criticise our religion, that's their choice. I didn't say anything about being offended about that.

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, Jesus Christ....

sword_of_truth: Maybe among radical muslims. Among normal muslims, they don't even talk about Taqiyya. That's more like one of the little secrets they have to hide so that people don't find out the truth. The point is that you can trick people in war. But I never heard of Taqiyya when I was a muslim, and most muslims will probably say the same or that they rarely heard anything about it. So, we can't speak of the whole muslim community being that way. They are just ridiculously biased and blind to anything that might be wrong with Islam, so in that sense, dishonesty is considered a virtue. And really, intellectual dishonesty is often considered a virtue in any religion when it comes to defending the faith against criticism.

elle: The main reason that Muslims have been ignorant of the words "Taqiyya", "Kitman", and "Abrogation," is because these words are not in the Quran nor in the Hadiths, as far as I can ascertain. Neither would the discussion of such words and its significance enhance the ideology of Islam. Perhaps they are more modern and more sophisticated Arabic vocabulary not used in the 7th Century. However the concept and practice of all three concepts is endemic in the Islamic and and Arabic culture from the beginning to time. Basically the foundation of Taqiyya stems from Quran 3:28. There is enough evidence today of these three concepts on the web and full discussions of its significance in relation to Islam that I will not enlarge on it further here.

elle: The main reason that Muslims have been ignorant of the words "Taqiyya", "Kitman", and "Abrogation," is because these words are not in the Quran nor in the Hadiths, as far as I can ascertain. Neither would the discussion of such words and its significance enhance the ideology of Islam. Perhaps they are more modern and more sophisticated Arabic vocabulary not used in the 7th Century. However the concept and practice of all three concepts is endemic in the Islamic and and Arabic culture from the beginning to time. Basically the foundation of Taqiyya stems from Quran 3:28.There is enough evidence today of these three concepts on the web and full discussions of its significance in relation to Islam that I will not enlarge on it further here.

But I was not even familiar with the concept, not just the word, when I was a muslim. All I am saying is that there are a lot of muslims who are honest and even if they are aware of these concepts, they would probably think that lying is reserved for more special occasions. Of course, anyone can lie.

It's a moot point for me. I just consider muslims to be unintentional liars, so I don't hold it against them because I don't know for sure that it's intentional, yet I don't sacrifice anything because I know that muslims are biased and anything they say is suspect, anyway, whether it's a conscious lie or not.

"...if you want my personal preference say I found out that my wife was cheating with me flogging would be too good a punishment."

sword_of_ truth, to me it boils down to this, "Does Allah approve of lying or does Allah consider it a sin the lie?" There is much greater latitude of lying in Islam than in Christianity. Let me give an example:

"Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them).

So as you can see, Muslims are allowed to only lie during battle, essentially in war. Muslims are allowed to lie in order to bring peace between two people, and also when a wife and husband are fighting with each other and they lie to bring about an end to their problems."

The above are three clear examples when lying is accepted. As far as I am concerned, domestic lying does not concern me. It is to lie in war.

So the definition is, what is war? Dar al Harb is the house of war. So therefore lying and concealment of the truth is accepted in dealing with all non-Muslims. That is the point that should be remembered.

The above are three clear examples when lying is accepted. As far as I am concerned, domestic lying does not concern me. It is to lie in war.

So the definition is, what is war? Dar al Harb is the house of war. So therefore lying and concealment of the truth is accepted in dealing with all non-Muslims. That is the point that should be remembered.

In short, lying in Islam is mainly "takkyya" deception. Deception in Islam is most acceptable and encouraged to spread Islam.One can hear nowadays, Islam is peaceful, yet the Koran is full of violence.To witness Islam in action, one should go to an Islamic country. The preacher teachs, over loud speakers over the mosques, the followers to terrorize and kill Christians. This is the true Islam.

That is to be taken advantage of by our honest and honorable Muslims. And they know they are being dishonest hypocritical opportunists, but they don't care. Achieve the numbers, that's all that matter, whether by hook or crook. There's no sense of honor needed in one's dealings with the kafir. That must be what they tell themselves when they stoop down as low as they do.

Please, don't blame the Muslims. They are victims of Islam like every one else.If you read the Koran, it is full of contradictions.

debunker wrote:by the way, Ronyvo... you're Coptic, right? I heard that your Bible is SUBSTANTIALLY different from the Western Bible, is that true? Like it's not only different translation but it contains different passages/books... is it true?

Yes, debunker, I am Coptic.

We are using King James Version of the English translation.I believe this is the same for the Westen Bible. However, this depends on what do you mean by WESTERN,

You may know , that JW and the Mormons bilbes are different because they are not considered Christians.

He goes and attacks the people making the argument, instead of just refuting the argument. A lot of muslims will riot, but a lot of them will just do precisely what ronyvo did and get all bent out of shape and complain that he's being persecuted. That's a bad attitude. You just refute the argument if you can. I don't accept this particular argument, but it seems fairly obscure to me.

Christianity has SOME nice aspects. That doesn't mean that it is 100% innocent. The Old Testament is plainly a very nasty book, and it's not out of some Satanic desire to bring down Christianity that we criticize it. That's just our opinion. It's not a very nice book. I'm sorry, but that's the way it is. I'm not going to be dishonest and say it's great. Also, Christianity is irrational and doesn't make much sense. Again, that's just my opinion. It's not some big atheist conspiracy, we just find Christianity to be distasteful and unfounded. And it's okay if Christians think that about us. At least to me. It's fine. That's your perception, we're big bad atheists. But we don't need to get into a fight over it. It's just a disagreement, no big deal. Let's not make a big fuss about it. We just agree to disagree and move on.

By the way, people like Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, and Richard Dawkins are anti-Islamic. It's just that Christianity is what they know, and Christians are the ones they mostly have to deal with.

Here is an article I wrote after 9/11:

How many times, the violence in the O.T. comes up when I quote Surahs (verses) from the Koran instructing its followers to terrorize and kill the infidels (non-Muslims).- The violence in the OT was as a result of the continuous disobedience and evil acts of God’s people. He (God) was punishing His people. - In some cases people were acting, on their own and committing all kinds of wicked and evil acts, which God has nothing to do with.- God tried everything to bring His people to worshiping Him alone. He sent to them many prophets. He gave them guidelines (The Ten Commandments). Still they disobeyed Him Grossly. He was extremely patient. He kept trying for thousands of years.SO, GOD PUNISHED HIS PEOPLE WHO DISOBYED HIM AND COMMITED ALL KINDS OF SIN.- While, Allah (Mohammad’s god, the moon god) instructs his followers to be judges and executors: “Apostle, rouse the believers to fight.” 8:64 “Kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from wherever they drove you out.” 2:191 The Muslim advocates in the West are saying that this pertain to self-defense. Well, keep reading. “Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day…and fight People of the Book (Jews and Christians), who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute by hand, being inferior.” 9:29. This is still happening today in some Islamic countries. Here are more surahs to prove that Islam is violent and evil:4:76,4:74,8:12-13,8:39,9:37,0:73,9:123,9:111I guess, by now we all know about JIHAD.Muslims called me a liar. My answer is: those surahs, are they in the Koran or not? If they are, then the Koran is a big lie and not I.My main English source is a translation done by 2 Saudi scholars in Saudi Arabia, THE NOBLE KORAN. Since I know Arabic and English I can say that the translation is about 90% correct. For instance, some words like enkahoo, which means the “F” 4 letters word was translated to marry.

On the other hand, The New Testament, which, the Christians follow, is a refreshing teaching, full of love and peace.The Lord Jesus Christ emphasized and demonstrated LOVE to the extent “love your enemies.” Mathew 5:43Now, if all Christians follow Jesus’ teachings, PEACE would have spread all over the world. Which is contrary to Mohammad’s teachings. And, because Muslims are following the Koran, we are in this mess. We can see and observe the effect of it all over the world.

However, when Muslims or others try to compare the OT with the Koran as far as violence is concerned, they forget that the violent in the OT was thousands of years ago.The violence in the Koran is followed to the present time. 2 Different eras. Islam is taking us to the barbarian era.

9/11/01 Exposed Islam to the world. Not enough, but it is a beginning. If Muslims are ashamed of what the Koran contains, they have the choice:Either they get out. They are here in a free country.Or, change the Koran and eliminate the hadith, not only in the West, but also and especially, in the Islamic countries.Since, the second choice is impossible they are left with the first. Which, millions of Muslims are doing now.Also, some tried to argue that since the Bible contains the Old & New testaments, Christians are responsible with the violence in the OT.There is a thematic unity. The OT leaves us with unfulfilled prophecies, unexplained ceremonies, unsatisfied longings and as unfinished destiny. The NT fulfills, explains, satisfies and finishes all of these things. Jesus said, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.” Matt 5:17And He continues; “You have heard that it was said. ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I tell you…whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.” Matt 5:38-39Also, “You have heard that it was said, ‘you shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy’. But I say to you, love your enemies.” And much more in Matthew 5, for whoever is honest and serious about finding the TRUTH.Also, one should note the fact that Jesus did not force his teachings on His followers: “And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet.” Matt 10:14Also, “If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you.” Matt 10-13 In Islam, however everything is by force. The mere relationship between man and his God is largely restricted and censored. For instance, Apostasy (leaving Islam) in Islam is punishable by death.The sword was and is the way to spread Islam. In the West, since the sword cannot be used, all kinds of deception and cunning tactics are used and without shame. The Islamic leaders in the West are swaggers, boasters and use double standard. They depend on the ignorance of the average American of the truth about Islam.

A final note: the O. T. is the LAW (which is called Moses law). If the law was not obeyed punishment is applied. The N.T. is the GRACE era. The division is obvious; the law era and the grace era. We are now in the grace era. Mohammad came in the grace era and wanted to take us backwards!!“For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.” John 1:17

A final note: the O. T. is the LAW (which is called Moses law). If the law was not obeyed punishment is applied.The N.T. is the GRACE era. The division is obvious; the law era and the grace era. We are now in the grace era. Mohammad came in the grace era and wanted to take us backwards!!

Ouch.

Aren't you admitting here that the comparison between Islam and the Old Testament is valid?

The problem is that if you believe that kind of barbarity, including stoning people to death, is endorsed by your God, at ANY point in time, it really is a bit hypocritical to criticize Islam for it. Unless, of course, one admits that the Old Testament really is a genuine problem. It is possible to do that and still be a Christian.

"...if you want my personal preference say I found out that my wife was cheating with me flogging would be too good a punishment."

debunker wrote:by the way, Ronyvo... you're Coptic, right? I heard that your Bible is SUBSTANTIALLY different from the Western Bible, is that true? Like it's not only different translation but it contains different passages/books... is it true?

A question: What is a Western Bible?We (the Copts) are using NEW KING JAMES VERSION, which is to my knowledge the same Bible used in the USA. Right?

to my knowledge the biblical texts used in the Coptic Church are the same as those found in the Catholic Church. However, there are some minor textual variations, things like "the mother" versus "his mother" and such stuff.