Varmitcountry--Like you, I'm not overly enamored of dough bellies (what the old mountain folks call hatchery trout). Interestingly, I fished the stretch of Raven Fork which is now part of the Cherokee catch-and-release program untold times as a boy. It used to be in the Park, and the trading of that land and section of river for another part of what was the Reservation was a travesty of political correctness I find unforgiveable.

That being said, lower Raven Fork is about as pretty in terms of physical apperance as a fly fisherman could want, and amidst all those dough bellies it carries wild fish as well. I actually consider it a blessing in some ways, because just a few hundred yards away you've got Luftee (in the Park), a fine brown trout stream in its lower Park reaches which almost certainly has reduced pressure as a result of the Cherokee initative. In fact, I suspect the Park in general in that area will see fewer fishermen as a result of this program.

Finally, I have no doubt there's some degree of difficulty in catching these fish, but they aren't terribly difficult or the program would soon lose its appeal. My view is that it takes different things to please different people. I happen to be partial to wild trout, but if soap heads (another moniker for hatchery fish) bring you joy, that's a grand thing. You are still fly fishing and providing business for operations like Little River Outfitters.

That being said, lower Raven Fork is about as pretty in terms of physical apperance as a fly fisherman could want, and amidst all those dough bellies it carries wild fish as well. I actually consider it a blessing in some ways, because just a few hundred yards away you've got Luftee (in the Park), a fine brown trout stream in its lower Park reaches which almost certainly has reduced pressure as a result of the Cherokee initative. In fact, I suspect the Park in general in that area will see fewer fishermen as a result of this program.

Mr Casada - I am hoping my wife gives me your book for Christmas but I was wondering if there is a really good map you would recommend for this area? I have never fished this area and online searches aren't producing a lot of detail and information for me. Especially since I don't know what I am looking at or what to look for. Would you recommend a standard DeLorme map book as my best bet or is there something else? I would just hate to spend hours driving and many dollars on a trip to the area and literally have no idea where to even begin fishing or where to go. The Cherokee website doesn't show a lot of information/maps either (unless I have overlooked it).

Scott--There's a map in my book (a removable fold-out which shows all streams, trails, and backcountry campsites) and I highly recommend ownership of the DeLorme Atlas for both N. C. and Tennessee. If you want more depth, JoeFred (on this forum) is in the process of doing some wonderfully detailed maps for Park waters, and he has completed the one for the Oconaluftee drainage.
Beyond that, a lot of water in this area is available right at roadside. Luftee parallels Highway 441 for many miles; Bradley Fork is accessible at the Smokemont Campground just off 441; Straight Fork can be acessed off the Big Cove Road (which is off 441); to get to Kephart Prong just park along 441 and hike a very short way; Collins Creek, Mingus Creek, and Kanati Fork all literally flow under 441 to enter Luftee.
Hopefully that will help a bit, but check out JoeFred's efforts and you can also visit the Park website to see the trail/stream map.
Jim Casada

[QUOTE=Jim Casada;74469]Varmitcountry--Like you, I'm not overly enamored of dough bellies (what the old mountain folks call hatchery trout). Interestingly, I fished the stretch of Raven Fork which is now part of the Cherokee catch-and-release program untold times as a boy. It used to be in the Park, and the trading of that land and section of river for another part of what was the Reservation was a travesty of political correctness I find unforgiveable.

I for one disagree with above statement. I don't see anyhing wrong with hatchery fish. I applaud what the Native Americans have done. It is a very interesting and fun place to fish and it is in no way as easy as some self proclaimed experts would like you to believe. I think it's derogatory to keep referring to dough bellies. So what! how about letting someone enjoy something fun for a change. I don't know if Mr. Casada realizes it. but he sounds bitter in my book. Yes I bought your book, and yes I realize your are a fine fisherman, and outdoors man but why always the need to turn every post in to a negative. As for the park swap, no problem with that either. In fact fishing is great on said spot.

Hans--I don't believe you are being fair to me. I'm interested in this forum as a source of information interchange rather than as a place of controversy. That's why I participate, and I endeavor to do so in a genteel and gentlemanly fashion. For some reason I seem to be a burr under your mental saddle, and that troubles me. I'm about as easygoing a guy as you are ever likely to encounter. As a journalist, I try to address topics in a fair and forthright fashion, and as someone who deeply cares for the Smokies and has roots there ranging back for generations, I am passionate about the fisheries.

In the posting you reference, I attempted, although obviously without success from your perspective, to indicate that it was fine with me if others enjoyed the fishing on the Cherokee waters. Indeed, and in my defense, I have written, and written quite positively, about the appeal of the fishery. So when you suggest that I let others have some fun, I've actually gone several steps beyond that. I've brought the opportunities to have that fun to the attention of readers of several publications. Robert Blankenship, who manages the Cherokee hatchery, would readily vouch for the positive impact that a piece I did on the program shortly after its inception (it appeared in "The Angling Report") had in terms of visitors and favorable publicity. Robert and I have talked about ways to fine-tune and improve the program by phone and, more recently, at the WNC Fly Fishing Expo. In fact, he has directly sought my input and advice on some steps which might make a thriving program even more successful. I've also written about the fishery in magazines and newspapers. So to suggest that I don't support it is inaccurate. I've done so, in person and in print.

It's just that for me personally, and in my post that was what I attempted to make abundantly manifest. I prefer to fish for wild trout. I actually went back and read my post to be doubly sure, and what I said was that the tribal fishery pleased me because it probably eased the pressure elsewhere.

As for references to dough bellies and soap heads, obviously you find that offensive. They are just terms I've heard old-time mountain folks use all my years, and far be it from me to deny my roots and eschew my raising.

I am not a "self-ordained expert," even though you subsequently refer to me as a fine fisherman. You can't know because you've never seen me fish. Others tell me I'm a decent hand with a fly rod and when it comes to catching trout on streams in the Smokies. However, I've known (and still know) many anglers who are far more adept than me. Where I am confident is in my background, which spans some 60 years of fishing the Park, in my knowledge of the area's history (I have a Ph. D. in history and studied at a fine institution in Tennessee, Vanderbilt University), in my passion for the area, and in my eagerness to share whatever knowledge I possess with others. That's the primary reason I've taught fly fishing in the University of Tennessee's Smoky Mountain Field School for some two decades. Please re-read my comments--I clearly state that it is a grand thing for anyone to fly fish, no matter whether for hatchery-raised trout or wild ones, and I further indicate that different approaches appeal to different folks.

My final plea to you would be to maintain civil discourse, and if I have failed to do so shame on me. I believe a fair reading of the posting which raised your hackles will reveal I intended to be civil, and maybe I should have just ignored your post suggesting otherwise.

Happy Thanksgiving, and surely we can agree that those of us who fish Park waters have a great deal for which to be thankful. In that regard, I'm anything but bitter. I'm blessed, and you are as well.

Jim Casada

P. S. As for the land swap, that's one subject where I won't yield one iota. I don't know how much you know about the background to the swap, and it's fine if you have no problems with it. I do (or did, since it is now a fait accompli). I was in good company in my objections, because a bevy of environmentalists, archaeologists, historians, and others found it a travesty. That was stated, with solid scientific support and great eloquence, in a number of public hearings. On top of all that, the swap was decidedly uneven--prime bottom land of great significance in exchange for acreage which is basically steep cliffs, practically unreachable, and of no ecological or other significance. That's hardly an equitable exchange, and most anyone in the area (including tribal members) will readily attest to the fact that politics was involved. Nor did the tribal authorities want the land because of its historical significance (which is considerable). It was wanted for and used to build a state-of-the-art education facility. That's a great thing and as an educator let me assure you it is a singularly impressive facility. On the other hand, the underlying argument for the land swap about needing the site for the school rang hollow indeed. The Eastern Band had quite suitable land near where Harrah's Casino is situated. It seems just possible that land was deemed unsuitable for pecuniary reasons. Methinks it not only possible but highly likely. Money talks.

I know of your accomplishments and I knew of you already in my second year in TN. I loved Trout South and that's where I encountered your writings for the first time. I still can't help but feel that you come across as somewhat negative about others viewpoints and theories. That is your right and I can live with it. I guess I have felt somewhat that your opinionated personality gets the best of you at times. It seems to me that every post you make has to have some kind of political or supercharged opinion in it. Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that. I don't doubt that you know a lot of stuff and you have clout as a local. I just don't understand when someone has to always "toot their own horn". You might not mean it that way but that's the way I interpret it. I am by no means perfect so I might just put too much in to this.

Forgive me if I offended you I just needed to express my opinion as you are always expressing yours. As for the tribe and their doings. I have no problems with it. I can understand why it might bother you more than me. After all I'm not a native of these parts but I do love these mountains and I can understand that someone born and raised here have different views on certain things.

As for as dough bellies and other terms. In my opinion, just because grandpa used those terms and that is your heritage, it doesn't make it any more classy. I don't necessarily think just because we were raised a certain way, it's is the only right way. Just because something is vintage, it doesn't always equal quality.

As for your educational achievement. I am familiar with those also and respect those. I guess I am even more appalled that someone with such a degree of education is continuing the rant with dough bellies and other peculiar wordings. I find it very funny to hear that you are a firm supporter and advocate of the tribal fishery but has to tell someone in a post that it's dough bellies. You are contradictory in my opinion.

In conclusion, in no way do I harbor any anger toward you, I'm just not in agreement with you. I'm sorry to hear that you think I am unfair. I do apologize for making you feel that way. Everything is cool and the sun will rise tomorrow regardless. Happy Thanksgiving and tight lines.

I was over there today, and it was beautiful. The water looked great, and it was virtually deserted. Only landed one average bow after 2.5 hrs fishing. I couldn't finish the deal on a couple of big ones including a large palomino that rose to my yellow stimulator. I just don't have enough experience fishing on the smaller waters. I am a tailwater guy, and it shows when I go to the mountains.

Talked to two other guys, and they each had landed a couple after fishing all afternoon. It was a good day though. While driving back home I was two bull elk and a bear along Newfound Gap Rd.

ChemEAngler thanks for the reply , if I might ask what where you fishing ,nymphs I would think but would like some info for my trip next week .Want to fish the trophy section but always hords of people there so I usually always go to some of my fav spots just outside of the boundry back into the park where it's quiet , the fish are smaller but more of an accomplishment when you catch the wild browns and brookies.