A lot of guys mean well when they continue to do dudebro things even though they want to be supportive. Slick has slowly improved, but he's still not at a point where he really listens or empathizes or does anything actually helpful. He gets a little credit over the other dudebros, but not much more than that._________________::lesser crisis mode::

Last edited by stripeypants on Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:14 am; edited 1 time in total

The simple truth is that no one here has any legitimate clue what has taken Tat down this path.

True, but Heck, if I could ask him just one question it would be that.

OklahomanSun wrote:

I don't even dislike the path, to an extent. I do think that even comics with an ideological bent to them can devote some time to other storylines, and I can't lie, I'd like to see at least a couple strips a year where Slick and Monique make at least a head fake towards being friends again.

Slicks new glasses might actually help with that. Too bad they can't exchange his glasses to her red pill (switch the male and female views of looking at the patriachatrix).

Oh for fucks sake. We do know -- it's presented in more than a few strips, especially the one with the fanboy and the ones with the artist in the factory.

A lot of guys [i]mean well[i/] when they continue to do dudebro things even though they want to be supportive. Slick has slowly improved, but he's still not at a point where he really listens or empathizes or does anything actually helpful. He gets a little credit over the other dudebros, but not much more than that.

He's still in a process of recovery. It is to be expected. In the twelve steps program you have to examine your past errors before you can make amends for them. I think he's at that stage. He knows that he's wrong and discovering the reasons and consequences that it has.

In comparison to the program again, Slick has actively seeked help from Xanthe and minds her opinion a lot. And I think she works as a sponsor in his recovery._________________Welcome to Sinfest, the only place with a 46 pages long thread about sentient toasters

The simple truth is that no one here has any legitimate clue what has taken Tat down this path.

True, but Heck, if I could ask him just one question it would be that.

OklahomanSun wrote:

I don't even dislike the path, to an extent. I do think that even comics with an ideological bent to them can devote some time to other storylines, and I can't lie, I'd like to see at least a couple strips a year where Slick and Monique make at least a head fake towards being friends again.

Slicks new glasses might actually help with that. Too bad they can't exchange his glasses to her red pill (switch the male and female views of looking at the patriachatrix).

Oh for fucks sake. We do know -- it's presented in more than a few strips, especially the one with the fanboy and the ones with the artist in the factory.

I would have to disagree.

We know when Tat changed his ideology, and we know why the character in the strip did, but unless Tat was in a man indoctrination factory when a feminist hacker shut it down and reprogrammed him (unlikely, unless there are parts of reality I've been missing), we don't know why Tat has gone the route he has.

I think you have some conflating going on between character and person.

You might be arguing that Tat is repenting for his earlier comics, but that's still a lot of what without a lot of why. What I said and what Hitsch replied to is that we're still in the dark on the why.

What and why are confusing sometimes, but they're subtly different things.

Since the strip about being edgy and politically incorrect has been quoted and we're talking about Tat, I'd like to share something I found on a Shakesville comment thread in regards to the Penny Arcade debacle.

Quote:

As an artist, I believe that art has social responsibility, and that offense has to be productive and not entrenched in affirming pre-existing power structures. Art loses its ability to do social critique when it affirms what's already happening. - Mouthyb

This absolutely sums up my view towards it, as well (as a visual artist and sometimes-writer who does not do nearly enough of that, unfortunately).

There is absolutely nothing daring or "edgy" about creating art that's pretty much more of the same old, same old that we've been seeing literally for the past few thousand years, and I, for one, am immensely glad that Tat has chosen this route now after unremarkable (to me) years of Sinfest being a run-of-the-mill vaguely-to-overtly misogynist comic about a "friendzoned" loser trying to get it with the hot popular girl and women who enslave men with the power of their butt-wiggling.

A lot of guys mean well[i/] when they continue to do dudebro things even though they want to be supportive. Slick has slowly improved, but he's still not at a point where he really listens or empathizes or does anything actually helpful. He gets a little credit over the other dudebros, but not much more than that.

He's still in a process of recovery. It is to be expected. In the twelve steps program you have to examine your past errors before you can make amends for them. I think he's at that stage. He knows that he's wrong and discovering the reasons and consequences that it has.

In comparison to the program again, Slick has actively seeked help from Xanthe and minds her opinion a lot. And I think she works as a sponsor in his recovery.

I'm sure Xanthe totes appreciates waiting for Slck's glacial evolution, and is just waiting with baited breath while this guy, who begs for cookies but wouldn't lift a finger to help her while she was being attacked by a mob, considers whether or not to be slightly more supportive. How riveting.

(I'd much rather see Xanthe develop as her own character than have her replace Nique as someone he can bounce off of.)

Slick is not inherently interesting or important to me, so I am not interested in his tale of redemption unless it moves at a quicker pace. I would rather hear about Fuschia, Abby, Blue, 'Nique, squig, Li'l E, Seymour, or Big D. Slick's own story was weak enough that when Tat shifted focus, it really couldn't hold up.

I don't think he is currently adding anything to the story. I think he could, but he's currently not. I don't find him [i]necessary, so in my opinion he could totally disappear from the storyline or finally change. and I'd be equally happy._________________::lesser crisis mode::

mmmm... mind if i weigh in a bit? nobody really asked for my input, buuut

i agree with leohan in that slick's journey is important to sinfest in the sense that he is a representation of the conflict between good and evil, a reflection of the tone of the comic, and sinfest really wouldn't be the same without him. i find him to be rather interesting, entertaining, and a manifestation of untapped potential. he is flawed, but not without his redeemable qualities... but stripeypants does in fact have a good point regarding his character - his story is rather weak, as tat tends to focus more on his desire to fulfill his sexual/romantic desires than the never-ending board game that is his morality and his good qualities often take a back seat in favor of tat exploiting his flaws. and as a result of this, his characterization is at a weak point currently and his character isn't as well-defined or developed. while we're getting the back-stories of some characters, and insight to the psyche of others, and development, slick's just sort of... there. he's shockingly static for someone who has literally been handed the tools to become a better person.

as of right now, right this second, slick is a rather... uninvolved character. he doesn't have a whole lot going for him. sure, there's the conflict between him and sleaze, the new addition of having sleaze's weird-ass sunglasses, and the deal with his thawing heart... but he has no real investment in what else is going on around him. there's no real involvement. he isn't interacting with many characters on a consistent level anymore, except for squig and xanthe and even then we haven't gotten that much extensive dialogue or development as a result of either of those dynamics. and there's very little going on for him in terms of character and depth in comparison to, say, nique or fuchsia. and this is because lately his presence had been shafted in order to give everyone else the space required to develop their own defining characterization and depth.

he isn't as balanced as other characters. and it's because of tat's inconsistent focus and disinterest in developing the various different storylines that have accumulated over time. if he's to be more vital to the strip as it is, right now, he needs to speed up his development. if he's to be a character worth being invested in, he needs more focus, as well as development. he needs to do something, instead of just letting things HAPPEN to him. right now, sleaze has more active involvement in everything currently that's going on in sinfest than slick has... and that's kind of a bad sign, considering he's only been around for like a year or two and is a complete extension of slick's existence.

slick can change for the better permanently while preserving the tone of sinfest, and he can do it sooner than leohan seems to think! change takes time, yes, but it doesn't need to be shockingly glacial. he doesn't need to be so ridiculously static of a character. slick can change for the better, become a better person and still be an enjoyable, entertaining and engaging character and i'll defend that concept till the ends of the earth. because i love slick as a character, i find him entertaining and cute, and i believe he can do better. i believe he can BE better. i believe he can change. and i dont think it has to take ten more years to do it. the only thing it depends on is whether or not tat's up to it.

but i do get genuinely happy to see him whenever he shows up, especially since he shows up so little these days. even if i'm not particularly interested in the contents of the strip, i'm always happy to see him. and tbh, if he completely disappeared from sinfest, or the storyline, i'm not sure if i'd really want to stick around to read it anymore. he's the reason i got into sinfest, and i wouldn't really like to see him go regardless of his current status in development.

i do agree that xanthe is a character that is detrimental to slick's development - after all, she's introduced a plot that provides him with the means of becoming a better person, she embodies the knowledge that is required for him to become a better person. she can and has provided him with the tools and the incentive required to become a better person and to genuinely change for the better. and in a lot of ways, i do think aspects of the dynamic shared between the two can be vital to her development as an individual. and for whatever reason, she does seem to like him to a degree. and she DOES genuinely want him to become a better person, but she isn't a crutch. she can't, and definitely shouldn't, hold his hand all the way and tell him what exactly to do. she's given him what he needs to be able to find his own path. and that's all she really can do. he's a grown-ass man who needs to make important decisions for himself. he needs to take initiative and make the changes he wants to see. he needs to be active.

and that's kind of what i like about their dynamic - she's not going to sugarcoat things for him, she's not going to hold his hand. she's not his crutch. she sees him for what he is, she sees all his flaws. and he really tries her patience, but she still sees his potential. she knows that he can do better, BE better, and genuinely wants him to be better. and she encourages him to be better. she isn't going to be impressed with him doing what he should have been doing in the first place. she'll snark at him, and about him, and she'll be disappointed in his failures. but she's not dependent on him, she can live and exist without him, and he's not detrimental to her happiness and her life. and their interactions are funny as hell. but he does seem to genuinely want to change for the better, he wants to be someone worth her time, he wants to impress her, and he wants her attention. and it isn't necessarily a romantic angle. it doesn't have to be. it isn't being played as one. and she isn't a prize to be won. she isn't seen or treated as one. slick sees her as someone he wants to be FRIENDS with, to be equal to, and impress. not a potential romantic conquest. and i like that.

buuut as important as i think they are to each other's development, and how much i love their interactions and their dynamic, i also agree with stripey that xanthe needs her own development separate from him. she needs more focus and development AS A PERSON rather than an ideal, to round her out as a person and a character, much like nique and fuchsia. she needs to be shown having extensive and consistent dialogue and interaction with characters BESIDES slick. we need to see her hanging out and having fun and talking to the friends we know she has. she needs to be actively shown enjoying those things we know she's interested in and enjoys. we need to be shown different dynamics between her and other characters, we need to be shown more of her as a person with interests and hobbies and skills. because right now... not nearly enough is known.

But yeah, I agree: At this point Slick's progress is too slow. Still, I think it wouldn't be good if it happened overnight. It has to be progressive, which I think could happen if the comic had a bit more focus than it has at this point.

Abby herself is struggling between good and evil, in her way, and she's getting more focus which is good because she's amazing. But it can't be done the same way with Slick I think. We know what's in her heart and we know that it's not going to change.

With Slick it needs to be a journey.

Which I don't think we'll be seeing anytime soon, I guess. But hey, doesn't kill anyone to hope. The reason why I liked the idea of that scenario is because 'Nique has always been important to Slick, and I think that she could be a catalyst to inspire change._________________Welcome to Sinfest, the only place with a 46 pages long thread about sentient toasters

We know when Tat changed his ideology, and we know why the character in the strip did, but unless Tat was in a man indoctrination factory when a feminist hacker shut it down and reprogrammed him (unlikely, unless there are parts of reality I've been missing), we don't know why Tat has gone the route he has.

I think you have some conflating going on between character and person.

You might be arguing that Tat is repenting for his earlier comics, but that's still a lot of what without a lot of why. What I said and what Hitsch replied to is that we're still in the dark on the why.

What and why are confusing sometimes, but they're subtly different things.

Are you choosing to ignore the first comic I posted? Hell a good portion of the feminist comics give the reasons 'why'. Tat found himself being programmed and then was awakened.

But in reality, he saw people diss him on wikipedia:

So he tore up the contract:

I mean, it's a pretty clear narrative: Sinfest got popular by what Tat now considers to be (ironically) sinful acts Remember, leading up to this Blue is going around doing soul audits of everyones sins.

We know when Tat changed his ideology, and we know why the character in the strip did, but unless Tat was in a man indoctrination factory when a feminist hacker shut it down and reprogrammed him (unlikely, unless there are parts of reality I've been missing), we don't know why Tat has gone the route he has.

I think you have some conflating going on between character and person.

You might be arguing that Tat is repenting for his earlier comics, but that's still a lot of what without a lot of why. What I said and what Hitsch replied to is that we're still in the dark on the why.

What and why are confusing sometimes, but they're subtly different things.

Are you choosing to ignore the first comic I posted? Hell a good portion of the feminist comics give the reasons 'why'. Tat found himself being programmed and then was awakened.

But in reality, he saw people diss him on wikipedia:

So he tore up the contract:

I mean, it's a pretty clear narrative: Sinfest got popular by what Tat now considers to be (ironically) sinful acts Remember, leading up to this Blue is going around doing soul audits of everyones sins.

So the 'why' is: Tat decided that fame fortune and fan girls were not worth the cost of his soul.

I still think you miss the fine line between what and why. This is a deep distinction, an epidemiological trench line where good men go to fight and die.

Yes, he saw his comic labeled as such, and yes, that was the impetus for his change, but at a basic level, that's still a what.

The why that we are not given is the reason for his caring. He was, as you called it, programmed, so why was there the rejection when it was demonstrated to him.

He could have just as easily, given the support structure of fans and his beliefs at the time, said "meh" and kept on keeping on. He didn't, we're left to ruminate as to the why, and that's ultimately what I meant. It could be that he turned away at the realisation himself, it could be that he was given some guidance from a third party, but we don't know. I've spent a lot of time and money in my life learning and being trained that you never say you know something with certainty when the givens don't support it.

It's a fine distinction, but it's one of those things that I am a bit of a stickler on.

I still think you miss the fine line between what and why. This is a deep distinction, an epidemiological trench line where good men go to fight and die.

Yes, he saw his comic labeled as such, and yes, that was the impetus for his change, but at a basic level, that's still a what.

The why that we are not given is the reason for his caring. He was, as you called it, programmed, so why was there the rejection when it was demonstrated to him.

He could have just as easily, given the support structure of fans and his beliefs at the time, said "meh" and kept on keeping on. He didn't, we're left to ruminate as to the why, and that's ultimately what I meant. It could be that he turned away at the realisation himself, it could be that he was given some guidance from a third party, but we don't know. I've spent a lot of time and money in my life learning and being trained that you never say you know something with certainty when the givens don't support it.

It's a fine distinction, but it's one of those things that I am a bit of a stickler on.

No, I didn't. Take this hypothetical conversation:

A)Why is that man on the ground crying?

Because he got kicked in the balls.

B)Why did he get kicked in the balls?

He's not saying.

I could replace the second sentence with "What caused him to be kicked in the balls?" and its intent would be the same.

You're splitting pointless semantic hairs.

You said:

OklahomanSun wrote:

The simple truth is that no one here has any legitimate clue what has taken Tat down this path.

OMG you were looking for a what

But more to the point, we do have a legitimate clue. I never claimed to be 100% certain of any sort of specifics, but we have definitely have "legitimate clues" as to why Tat changed his views.

We are getting the 'why', but not the whole why. It's like how in court they require you to tell "the truth, the WHOLE TRUTH, and only the truth"; we got the "why", but not the "WHOLE WHY", which may not even really exist. It could have been a subtle accumulation over the years culminated in a tipping point. The real point is we've been given enough of the 'why', any more is pedantically irrelevant._________________...if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there.https://www.facebook.com/O.A.Drake/https://twitter.com/oadrake

Would it even matter if we knew the exact why? Whether the reasoning is that he got sick of all the gross mysoginists online or offline or whatever wouldn't deter anyone from liking or disliking the comics. I remember some of the comments in the thread for the comic Darq linked and one of them was all like "Omg Tat must be mentally ill!" Fuck that noise. Tat explaining why would just open the floodgates for certain users to start pretending to be armchair psychologists in the hope to somehow persuade Tat to do different things (aka things mostly everyone else already does).