I actually took some time to read this silliness. They have nothing. I confess first I shared their doubts about where O was born, but I soon came to the conclusion that the birthers who think O was born in Kenya need airline or immigration records to show that Stanley Ann was in Kenya. No record of any kind. I don’t buy it. Arpaio’s on the wrong track. In fact, the American Thinker site has writers who are reading actual INS documents from that time about Barack Sr. That is documentation that she was in HI as was Barack Sr. There are fascinating and questionable things about O’s own past and his parents’ marriage, but I think they need to quit attempting to prove he was born in Kenya. It ain’t true.

kevin

I’d say an altered and/or fraudulent birth certificate and selective service card is relevant information, on top of Obama’s past drug use, radical connections, and more or less blatant marxism. Can you imagine what the media would have done to Bush 43 if his draft card was an obvious fake?

kevin

They are not trying to prove that he was born in Kenya. Their case, and it’s a convincing one, is that his documents are fake.

Ted Seeber

the problem being that they’ve countered with equally obvious fakes (the most famous one being the Australian birth certificate altered to look Kenyan).

I’m to the point that I don’t trust either side to be able to produce the genuine article.

rachel

It is such a moot point. He has been our president for almost four years now. Attack him on his record, not something that “allegedly” occurred decades ago.

ivan_the_mad

Indeed. Besides, even if true, no court is going to undo the laws he signed while President. It will change nothing. But it does give the DNC lots of ammo for fund-raising letters. Headline three years from now: Sheriff Joe on retainer with DNC for last seven years!

Hezekiah Garrett

Can I nominate Rachel for “Most Quintessentially American Political Musing of the Year”?

kevin

The man wasn’t vetted the first time he ran, so I’m all for a comprehensive investigation. I cannot fathom why so many americans seem to keep drinking the liberal Kool Aid that it’s “crazy” to believe he was born in Kenya. Obama HIMSELF claimed to be born there for 16 years:

. Obama’s literary agent claimed he was “born in Kenya”–for sixteen years. His original book proposal exists–biographer David Maraniss refers to it–and seems to have embellished other key details of his life. Yet it has never been released.

Mark Shea

Because book blurb hype is book blurb hype. The guy was born in Hawaii. Get over it.

If one cannot be persuaded by that amount of common sense, I suggest therapy for irrational fears. There are lots of real critiques of this awful President. That the Right keeps making recourse to crap like this only demonstrates the intellectual bankruptcy of the right.

ivan_the_mad

“That the Right keeps making recourse to crap like this only demonstrates the intellectual bankruptcy of the right.”

Which is a real pity, because American conservatism has rich intellectual heritage. Kirk’s “The Conservative Mind” is the one-stop-shop in my unlettered opinion.

Ted Seeber

I just love it when I click on a link and get a SQL error:
user warning: Illegal mix of collations for operation ‘ IN ‘ query: SELECT * FROM menu_router WHERE path IN (‘​WRHARTICLES/obamabirth.php’,’​WRHARTICLES/%’,’​WRHARTICLES’) ORDER BY fit DESC LIMIT 0, 1 in /home/wakethef/public_html/includes/menu.inc on line 315.

Hezekiah Garrett

Those are both bad links, Mark.

I know nothing about any of the rest of it, but I do know the long form the Whitehouse has available isn’t even attempting to hide it was cobbled together.

kenneth

It’s what it looks like at this point: A tinfoil nutter conspiracy theory. If Christ himself re-appeared for the sole purpose of giving sworn testimony in court that HE personally witnessed Obama’s birth in the U.S., that would not begin to “prove” anything to those invested in the conspiracy. If a time-stamped video of the event with a flawless chain of custody came to light, that would be proof of “forgery.” If the birth had happened on the 50-yard line at Superbowl, the “investigation” would focus on “who got to” those 50,000 spectators to get them to falsely testify what they saw.

Richard Johnson

There is more evidence that Obama was born in Hawaii than there is that Jesus Christ existed. If you doubt the former, why do you accept the latter.

ivan_the_mad

I consider people who doubt the existence of Christ as an historical person just as loony 😉 Not to mention that particular tactic is likely to be, shall we say, less than productive on this blog.

Zzedar

“Prove it. Arpaio’s investigators have not been able to.”

That’s a brilliant bit of burden-shifting there. The burden of proof is on those who think the certificate was faked to prove that it was, not on the rest of the world to prove that it wasn’t.

Ted Seeber

The problem with that is that you’re actually believing what Obama says about himself.

ds

If he “wasn’t vetted the first time he ran,” it’s only because conservatives stuck to idiot theories like birther stuff, and misleading connections between Wright and Ayers, amongst other hateful wingnuttery.

Cripes, if you are a social or fiscal conservative in the least, there is plenty to object to. Why resort to nutcase theories that are typically false and misleading at best?

Rosemarie

+J.M.J+

Birtherism was started during the last election by a Democrat who supported Hillary Clinton and was upset when Obama got the nomination. Conservatives eventually caught on to it, of course, but it grew in those circles mostly *after* the election. The vetting of Obama, OTOH should have happened *during* the election and by the MSM. So I don’t think we can blame the lack of vetting on conservative Birtherism.

Ted Seeber

Actually, I think we now do indeed have enough proof to say that Birtherism was cooked up by a publicist with or without the President’s knowledge- a good decade before the campaign.

kevin

Then the country’s foremost “birther” is Obama himself. He was either born there or is an inveterate liar.

Mark Shea

Of course he’s a liar. This is news?

Peggy R

Even though I don’t think O was born in Kenya, I am a part of the “kook” crowd in other regards. I do have doubts that Barack Sr was O’s father. The INS documents related to Barack Sr show that the INS was concerned that the Dunham-Obama marriage was a sham to help Barack Sr stay in the US. She was pregnant. The docs suggest that they were planning to adopt out the child–why do so if the bio parents married? Barry may have been told and does believe that Barack Sr was his father, but it may be that Frank Marshall Davis was his father. The marriage was likely a cover. She ran off to Wash St to go to school soon after Barry was born. Dunham and Barack Sr never lived together. The INS was concerned about his womanizing and his polygamy back in Kenya. Everything O believes today is what Frank Marshall Davis, a childhood mentor (and his likely father), believed. (Am Thinker writers have developed this whole story I summarize over several articles and authors.)

Why did Barry say he was born in Kenya in his book promos? To be more exotic and he did/does believe Barack Sr to be his father. So, are there still citizenship questions? Yes, because of Lolo Soetoro’s having adopted him. I don’t really know what’s true about his status there, thus it is a Q. Is his original birth cert over-ridden by docs that have Lolo as his father? Did he register for college as a foreign student? How did he fund his education? I am aware of the questions surrounding his SS# and selective service docs.

So, I am have much doubt about the veracity of this man, but I don’t see the Kenya birth angle. The stories about the fake birth certificate are too technical and hard to believe for the non-techie. The doc if fake could mean many, many things and doesn’t answer Qs about O. Why is the doc fake? Arpaio needs to show Stanley Ann was in Kenya to give birth. That’ll make a believer of me. Arpraio needs to investigate to obtain the truth.

Mark Shea

Exactly. If I have to choose between “Young author embellishes resume to have more cool Third World Cachet for target audience” vs. “Vast complicated conspiracy involving microfiches Hawaii newspaper birth announcements orchestrated by Obama campaign” I will opt for the common sense first choice.

ds

Peggy, tell the truth. You’re really Glenn Beck, aren’t you?

Peggy R

Dang, you found me out.

kevin

It’s not that trivial Mark. He was a lawyer at the time this claim to have been born there was repeatedly made. It shows that he is fundamentally a dishonest person. I agree that the fake documents don’t prove he was born over there but why give the guy a pass on any of this? The Obama machine has effectively tried to declare this topic off limits by laughing at anyone who mentions it. Ridicule can be very effective. But the funniest thing about this is that Obama was claiming to be born there for 16 years. It’s comical.

Ted Seeber

It isn’t trivial, but the correct answer *does* seem to be that he is a liar rather than he was born in Kenya. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that in support of this lie, he broke into the Hawaii records hall himself 20 years ago and destroyed his birth certificate (it would certainly explain why the White House has also been putting out fake birth certificates).

Mark Shea

It is comical, but not evidence that he was not born in Hawaii, just evidence that he lies and self-promotes, which we knew. Stop wasting everybody’s time with this dumb crap–unless you *want* to lose the election. And the Right does seem to want that at some level. Look who they nominated. All the mendacity of Clinton, all the charm of Al Gore.

Kevin

You blogged about it Mark. It’s probably better to critique arpaio’s work intelligently rather than call it ‘crap.’.

It’s still a semi free country and I have no problem with arpaio exposing the fraud currently sitting in the white house.

Mark Shea

He’s not exposing anything. He’s just contributing to the dumbification of the Thing That Used to be Conservatism.

Will

Wait a minute. I thought there was nothing wrong with a little name-calling.

ivan_the_mad

How dare you call it wrong or little. You’re part of the problem.

Kevin

All this aside, The man is ineligible to be president regardless of where he was born. It is undisputed that his father was Kenyan. To be a natural born citizen both parents must be American citizens.

Romney is starting to hit back on the issues that matter practically speaking, so there is hope

DTMcCameron

I’m fairly certain that your first point isn’t, ahm…accurate.

ivan_the_mad

“To be a natural born citizen both parents must be American citizens.”

Incorrect. To be a natural born citizen, you need only be born somewhere that falls under US jurisdiction. Your parents’ citizenship status only comes into play when you are born somewhere that doesn’t fall under US jurisdiction.

Ted Seeber

United States v. Wong Kim Ark (1898)

Kevin

A fake selective service card? No big deal? I don’t think so. It’s not an either or situation.

Peggy R

I don’t think these things are trivial matters, but I think that Arpaio et al need to prove that O’s story and documents are false by showing documents of what is actually true. Here is a pretty good article that is more believable and based on documentation at the time of O’s parents’ marriage and his birth/infancy.

This article is nutty as a fruitcake. This is the kind of crap that intermeshes with nicely with the bullshit stories that Obama’s father is really Frank Marshall Davis. There’s really nothing behind that theory other than among some wingnuts, all communists (read: anyone to the left of Ronald Reagan) and all black people look alike.

ivan_the_mad

I strongly object. I like fruitcake. You leave fruitcake out of this.

ds

Nicely done. I lol’ed.

Linebyline

As with everything in politics, the answer is, “It depends.”

Are we talking about my great-grandmother’s applesauce fruitcake or one of those store-bought, cellophane-wrapped ones?

I also think Obama was born in Hawaii, but has almost certainly falsified (and otherwise hidden) his records; for what reason I don’t know, but it is certainly a relevant matter of public interest. So count me with the kooks.

The waterboarding series is there (along with everything else), but there are many broken links. I’ll let you know once I’ve got it a bit more cleaned up, since I know a number of folks contributed to it and like to have it around as a reference.

Mark Shea

Excellent! And I have no doubt Obama is hiding stuff. I just don’t think the Birther stuff is among the stuff he’s hiding.

Andy, Bad Person

I also think Obama was born in Hawaii, but has almost certainly falsified (and otherwise hidden) his records;

This. I’m not convinced his given birth certificate is genuine or not; I really don’t know who to even trust on the matter. What I think happened, though, is quite simple: they lost it. Because of some file system or whatever, it got lost or destroyed, or whatever. Now they’re scrambling to cover their behinds.

However, I’m not sure exactly what the law is, but I suspect that the onus is on Obama’s opposition to prove he was born outside the country, not just vaguely insinuate he wasn’t.

As to his academic records, I’ve always found it a bit shady that they have never been released. He doesn’t have to release them, naturally, but it just looks like he’s hiding something. Or he’s letting conspiracy theorists give themselves enough rope to hang themselves with, in which case it’s working.

Linebyline

I have to agree.

It’s a classic tactic. It’s the typical magician’s sleight-of-hand misdirection: You watch the hand with the flailing handkerchief, not the hand that’s actually performing the trick. In computer security, it’s called a honeypot: A resource left out to attract hackers (and Winnie-the-Pooh, apparently), who will focus on it instead of the resources that are actually valuable, and maybe leave behind some helpful information about themselves in the process. I’m reasonably certain that’s the purpose of Area 51. (Unless my other theory, that it’s actually the home of Santa Claus, pans out. I’ll keep you posted.)

Kevin

Ivan, you’re totally wrong. Read minor v Happersett.

Mark Shea

Another combox Ph.D. in Constitutional Law graduates!

A Philosopher

You mean this part of Minor v Happsett?

The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts.

That doesn’t exactly look like a ringing defense of the claim that both parents must be U.S. citizens in order for the child to be natural born.

A Philosopher

Or maybe (I know, but I’m having fun) United States v Wong Kim Ark:

There is, therefore, little ground for the theory that, at the time of the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States, there as any settled and definite rule of international law, generally recognized by civilized nations, inconsistent with the ancient rule of citizenship by birth within the dominion.

My precident is later than your precident, and therefore takes precedence.

ds

You tell him I think he’s a damn fool, Ed. You tell him I said so – H.I. McDunnough. And if he wants to discuss it he knows where to find me. In the Maricopa County Maximum Security Correctional Facility for Men, State Farm Road Number Thirty one, Tempe, Arizona. I’ll be waiting!

Jmac

Great movie. It must have been, because I actually didn’t mind Nicholas Cage being there at all.

ds

But that was back when he was really Nicholas Cage, when he or his agent or somebody near him actually knew how to select good roles, not just whatever crap script came down the pipe.

Think about Moonstruck:I don’t care! I aint no freakin monument to justice! I lost my hand! I lost my bride! Johnny has his hand! Johnny has his bride! You want to take my heartbreak, put it away and forget?!

Even if Obama were born in Kenya, what difference would it make? He would never be impeached over that even if it were true and could be proved. Nor would that undo the laws he passed. The birthers only make Obama look good and aid his reelection chances by attacking him with irrelevant, false claims that distract people from examining his record as President. It would be the equivalent of the left attacking Romney by claiming he was born on Mars.

Well, regardless of wherever Obama was born, I hear his present situation has deteriorated such that even the Kenyans are are now claiming he was born in the United States.

ds

LOL, that’s actually pretty good.

Kevin

Yes that part of Minor. It is not a ringing ‘defense’ but it is the clearest articulation by the Court of what a NBC is. The issue should be taken up by the Court at some point in the future.

Richard Johnson

Our nation is going to hades in a handbasket, and the best that modern conservatism can do is question the birth place of our President or his parentage?

Rabies is a terrible disease that eats at the mind, and clearly it has eaten at the mind of way too many folks who actually buy this conspiracy.

ivan_the_mad

Apparently. Kind of like how the best the modern liberals could do is question the parentage of Trig Palin. Conspiracies scratch an itch for some, I suppose.

Richard Johnson

Exactly, or the notion that 9/11 was an inside job. Facts matter little to folks like this, and evidence is dismissed.

I strongly suspect that none of us can prove we were born in the United States to the level of proof demanded by birther nuts. After all, testimony can be bought, documents can be forced, and any video/audio/photographic evidence can be easily created on the computer.

What scares me is that we have elected officials actually giving credence to these theories. In the case of Arpaio I’m willing to accept that his statements may be the result of dementia or Alzheimer’s. As for others…?

ivan_the_mad

It’s part of larger problem wherein the hypothesis is considered true and any facts pertinent to the hypothesis are accepted or discarded to the extent that they support the presumed hypothesis.

As for “elected officials actually giving credence to these theories”, that doesn’t scare me. It doesn’t even shock me. Ginning up stupid is classic political practice.

Zippy

Well, to be more specific, I think the birth certificate he released on the Internet is in fact a fake. Why he released a fake birth certificate is unknown, at this point.

So again, count me with the tinfoil hat kooks.

Zippy

And also, inquiry into his falsified records is perfectly legitimate and even important, in my view, though certainly not the most important thug ever. But I think it is perfectly legitimate for some inquiring minds to make that their focus.

Andy

I got it – 50 plus years ago his father, a well known seer and socialist recognized that his SON, born in a lowly hut in Kenya could be a president of the US and could lead the US to becoming a socialist nation. So in concert with the active communist at that escaped Joe McCarthy’s hunt he was able to have placed in Hawaii a secret document that when released would prove that is SON was a natural citizen of the US. He, the SON’s father was able to then make sure that when demanded the document – a certificate of live birth – would be made available over the Internet and be subject to all sorts of discussion and theorizing and hand-wriginging. He did this so his SON would have ample cover when he changed the US in the new United Socialist of America (cleverly keeping the USA acronym so we wouldn’t have to change the linens). Ah to have been Barack Hussein Obama, Sr, a seniorKenyan economist and well known seer. He must have made a bundle in predicting the future of Africa as well.
Failing to believe this we might accept the state of Hawaii saying that Obama was really born there. The depths that people will go to discredit this man, is overwhelming, and then conservatives complain about the media not taking them seriously. Go figure.

Steve

Frankly, it seems more logical to me to question why someone would not at least have an open mind when it comes to Obama’s true nationality. In the end it may turn out to be much ado about nothing, but it seems way over the top to ridicule those who wonder about the obvious inconsistencies.

Richard Johnson

Steve, would you cut the same slack to those who question the Virgin Birth or Resurrection of Christ?

Steve

Richard,
One of my pigs just got loose and I had to run out and put her back in the pen.

Don’t you have anything better to to?

ivan_the_mad

Steve, who do you think let your pig loose? 😉

Richard Johnson

Just trying to see how open a mind you have, Steve.

Steve

“Merely having an open mind is nothing. The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on some thing solid.” GKC

Richard Johnson

And I think that most rational people have found that solid thing when it comes to Obama’s birth certificate, Steve. Of course, for those who are irrational, no evidence will suffice.

Much like the case with the over-zealous atheist, right?

Zippy

Again, my view is that:

1) Obama was almost certainly born in Hawaii

2) The birth certificate he released, and other personal records such as his selective service registration, are definitely fake.

3) Inquiry into the matter – and into the records of any President or Presidential candidate is of legitimate public interest.

Furthermore, I find all the vitriol aimed at so-called “birthers” puzzling, at least when it comes from people I expect to be reasonably objective.

Richard Johnson

Vitriol?? Nah, I save that for Cubs fans. We have evidence for when the Cubs last won the world series…or was that manufactured as well????

Zippy

I’ve had to produce a non-fake hard copy birth certificate for all sorts of purposes, including getting a passport and driver’s license. Obama’s BC that he released is almost certainly a fake (and not even a particarly good one). This is an area of legitimate public inquiry, like it or not.

Richard Johnson

So you produced a real birth certificate? Prove it. I contend that your certificate is fake.

Ted Seeber

Mine is physical, and in my wallet. Obama’s is virtual and contains fonts not even invented when he was born.

Zippy

Why are “anti-birthers” (for lack of a better term) comparing the birth of Obama to the Virgin Birth, again? Where exactly does objectivity really lie on this subject, again?

Zippy

Right. Observing that Obama produced an apparently demonstrably fake BC, and that this is of legitimate public interest, is somehow equivalent to a refusal to accept solid evidence.

Projection, I guess.

Richard Johnson

“Observing that Obama produced an apparently demonstrably fake BC,…”

And your evidence for accepting that he did this? ” Zullo said a writer who published a book about Obama’s birth certificate and was aiding investigators let them listen in on an interview he conducted of the former state worker.” A law enforcement officer and his (I assume) experienced “investigators” did not insist on interviewing this alleged witness directly? Sorry, but that is as flimsy as the stuff being put out about Trig Palin by Andrew Sullivan.

Again, can you prove that you presented a “non-fake” birth certificate in those instances you cited? Inquiring minds want to know, Zippy. 😉

Ted Seeber

While I am not a lawyer (as I said before) I am a software engineer- and while I am not entirely convinced that the long form is a forgery, I am convinced that the White House under Obama hires incompetents who can’t be bothered to check the “merge layers” checkbox when publishing a PDF.

Such a revelation gives me little hope as to the competence of the rest of the administration, which was in doubt for other reasons.

Richard Johnson

OK, Zippy. Let’s run with your argument here, that the “evidence” presented by Arpaio and his investigators does indicate that the certificate is a fraud and that Obama has not proven his citizenship.

Accepting that, I’d appreciate your thoughts on the following controversies, just to see if you see a greater or lesser threshold of evidence having been met.

Does Bat Boy Exist (and more importantly, is he an Obama supporter)? -/weeklyworldnews.com/mutants/4951/top-5-bat-boy-stories-of-2008/

Is Area 51 really and truly a secret government project attempting to communicate with aliens? -/area51news.net/

Since I see as much evidence in these sites I see presented by most birthers, I’d be curious to your thoughts on these three controversies as well, Zippy.

ivan_the_mad

If Bat Boy does exist, he’d be related to Batman (obviously), who is really Bruce Wayne, a billionaire, making him part of the top 1%, and therefore, Bat Boy would … not care who won, the super rich win either way 😀

Richard Johnson

Of course, and then, being so jaded by the initial publicity, he would fall into a near hermit-like existence. He’d probably move to Las Vegas, purchase a hotel and live on the penthouse floor. After a few years we’d wonder if he existed, or if he had died some horrid death. But his death would finally be announced, and his final photos, with him gaunt and in a hospital gown with a long beard, would appear in that wonderful font of all truth, the Weekly World News.

Say…could Bat Boy have been Howard Hughes?

Zippy

Accepting that, I’d appreciate your thoughts on the following controversies, just to see if you see a greater or lesser threshold of evidence having been met.

Good idea, I’ll play rope-a-dope with some idiot strawman manufacturer in a combox.

My own credulity or lack thereof has been amply demonstrated for years on various blogs, including this one. I’ve never heard of you before this discussion, and I don’t feel inclined to indulge your fantasy that your opinion matters.

Richard Johnson

Credibilty…with a pseudonym. Right.

Joannie

I think that as incredible as this may sound to the average American, we have to consider the possibility that it may actually be true, and here is why. He has never released any kind of proof that he was born here. Secondly, there is a retired postman who says he met Obama himself in the late 1980’s and he (Obama) predicted that he would someday be the American President. The late Andrew Breitbart had some damaging info on him that he was planning to release before he died suddenly, and finally this man does not act like or conduct himself like an American born person. Also it has been revealed that Frank Marshall Davis is his real father (and resembles him) as well. To me all of this seems to be too much evidence to say it is a real FACT, not just a crazy story. Remember Frank Marshall Davis as well as Stanley (his mother) were both real Communists. It could happen here indeed and it also explains why he has done everything he has since 2009.

I really don’t have time to peruse every one of the 87 prior comments here concerning what arguments are being made, if any beyond assumptions that the writer thinks he knows what the term means, against his deserving the status as a “natural born citizen.” Perhaps someone has pointed to the following, but if not, herein follows the paths automatically to be born abroad as a citizen of the United States (whether the birth is legitimate or illegitimate) [footnotes and links omitted]:

Birth abroad to one United States citizen
For persons born between December 24, 1952 and November 14, 1986, a person is a U.S. citizen if all of the following are true (except if born out-of-wedlock):
1.The person’s parents were married at the time of birth
2.One of the person’s parents was a U.S. citizen when the person was born
3.The citizen parent lived at least ten years in the United States before the child’s birth;
4.A minimum of 5 of these 10 years in the United States were after the citizen parent’s 14th birthday.

For persons born out-of-wedlock (mother) if all the following apply:
1.the mother was a U.S. citizen at the time of the person’s birth and
2.the mother was physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year prior to the person’s birth. (See link for those born to a U.S. father out-of-wedlock).

If anyone still wants to argue the point other than on the basis that they somehow believe his documents are forged, have a wonderful time venting.

Pax et bonum,
Keith t&OUML;PFER

RUs

Zippy’s pseudonym, standing alone, is at least as credible as “Richard Johnson.” In fact, we have no idea if “Richard Johnson” is your real name, which means that 50% of the possibilities presented to us consist of the fact that you are a deceptive fake, and that your credibility is zero. This does not pertain to Zippy because we are 100% certain that he did not misrepresent his name. You are both just two unknown personalities on the Internet. . .

. . . except that, Zippy is not an unknown. Zippy’s credibility comes from many years of rigorous argument, responsible examination of fact, a great deal of humility, and consistent rational thought. That is orders of magnitude more than we have regarding some stranger claiming to be “Richard Johnson.”

Just because you either have nothing worth protecting or are too stupid to protect your identity on the Internet (and if your really all about full disclosure, you can post your address, phone number, place of employment, and social security number), it doesn’t make you somehow more credible.

Zippy is a well-established person. You have far, far more to prove than Zippy does in this forum and many others. Continued use of these kinds of cheap shots will only damage your credibility before you have any established.

Hezekiah Garrett

Dickie-bird isn’t unknown here at all. He’s been emoting for a couple of years at least that I can recall.

It doesn’t rise to the level of zippy’s reputation, but he isn’t “unknown” to all of us.

Kevin

Martial, the terms ‘citizen’ and ‘natural born citizen’ are very different in terms of presidential office eligibility . This is clear from the Constitution itself and is the source of the whole controversy.