- Would you hold a person back by virtue of time-served alone even if it's evident they are proficient enough to move forward?

I believe there are exceptions to every rule. The time required to promote, as your refer to time-served, is a guideline. If evidence showed the student was more than proficient at the skills required I may give the opportunity to grade faster.

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- Do you consider prior martial arts experience when someone joins your club when placing them in a class (for instance, beginner, intermediate or advanced), or is that irrelevant? Why or why not?

Prior martial art experiences is taken into account. A student came in and had not taken Taekwondo for over 5 years however had a black belt from a different organization. He started at a white belt and was able to test as high as he wanted at each test period. First test he tested from white to blue. Next test he tested from blue to Red/Black Stripe. Final test was black belt. He progressed faster than most but that is only because he had the necessary skill.

If a student hast he necessary skills than why hold them back? They are an asset to the club with not only helping out as know the skills but can also bring a different look and different skills to help others.

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- For those in the area of tae kwon do, how would you handle a situation where someone with a black belt in tae kwon do, but from a different organization joins your club? For instance a black belt from ITF starting WTF, or a black belt from WTF starting Song Moo Kwan, or vice versa, etc.? Do they start at white belt, do they start as a black belt, do they start somewhere in between? What is the rationale for your response?

I addressed this a bit above. The reason this student started at white was it was agreed upon as had not taken Taekwondo for several years and this seemed the best course of action.

One of the students I trained with who had just reach black belt (WTF), joined a local ITF club as our school closed down. He was able to retain his black belt but trained from the bottom up. I believe each situation has to be looked at and then the best course of action taken. In this case most of the skill sets are equal with the exception of the patterns (forms). A person from another art such as Karate I may start at a white belt however allow them to progress faster.

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- Is "time-served" set in stone, or is the fitness level, prior athletic experience, natural ability, rate of learning, etc. an important thing to consider?

Time required between belts is not set in stone however is a good guideline. While a student may have all of these skills in most cases I would have them continue for the "time required" to become even better at those skills, rather than rush them through the system. In that same breath, I would hold up other students if they could not show those skills even if they had served the time.

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The situation I am specifically referring to is an individual with 14 years of experience in Tae Kwon Do recently took and passed their belt promotion from black stripe to double black stripe (the belt before black belt at my club) two months after their last belt test. This individual has a black belt in Song Moo Kwan Tae Kwon Do, but was forced to switch styles several years ago because it isn't taught in very many locations. The club they originally started before joining my club asked them to start at purple belt (the half way point), which they did. It has been three years since. They passed their belt test and no-one questions their ability, yet the manager of another location of the same club (there are three locations of the club I belong to) is really upset they were permitted to take their belt promotion test after only two months.

This doesn't bother me too much; 14 years of experience is a solid amount of time to know most skill sets and to pick up on other styles faster. Obviously the school where he took this the Instructor was confident enough to allow this; the other Instructor at the other school can show his dismay but it is not up to him.

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I know in other NGB's Orgs it increases with the Dan Level but then again I have seen orgs that have lower timescales than this giving out 16th Dans etc due to the lesser times required between the grades

Your thoughts on that

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Dobbersky, your time required between belts is pretty much par for what my school did. I believe that school that do less than this are sub-par. I sadly have seen some sub-par black belts as well as instructors.

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Dobbersky, the time between dans is the same at my club; however, from what I have observed very few people actually choose to test beyond first dan at my club.

Dereck, it may not directly be within her power to do anything, but it is indirectly within her power to convince the club owner there is a problem at the university club with, in her words, loopholes.

The thing is that the university club IS poorly managed right now. We just don't have the committed manpower. The instructors that teach at the club all moved on from tae kwon do and started lives. It isn't their priority so the teaching is very random and haphazard. It's a challenge on its own to make certain there is an instructor available at all for each class. The individual that is causing so much controversy has the time, skill, experience, and motivation to run the university club, but they are limited in their jurisdiction because the colour around their waist isn't solid black. The pragmatic thing is to allow them to "fast-track" (so long as the ability to pass the test is there of course), but the manager insists on being dogmatic about a random time requirement.

Black belt dans for me really just represent experience so I completely get being dogmatic about the time in-between, but that mentality just does not transfer over the same to colour belts.

This whole situation just upsets me because I no longer feel at home at my club.

In my perfect world I'd like to go to class and my Instructor tosses me a belt when he sees I'm ready as I have proven it time and time again. No tests, no fees just an acknowledgement of proficiency. Time would not necessarily mean anything either. The only time is what I put into it and the more I put into the more proficient I will get.

I hope things work out for you Christie; good luck.

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Agreed. When first started I rushed through the ranks learning the "basics" and putting in the "time" so that I could test. By the time I acquired my blue belt I figured it out and slowed down. My goal was by the time I reached black belt I wanted to be better than the basics; and I was. Having attended some other schools, sadly even before black belt I had better skills than many. I owe that to slowing down and to a great Instructor that demanded the best from me. I wish others could realize this.

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In most martial arts, the higher belts are nothing more than honorary. Seems pretty useless to me. Again, I'd like just to be thrown a belt when it was deserved and earned by my day to day performance.

_________________________"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

Dereck said "I believe there are exceptions to every rule. The time required to promote, as you refer to time-served, is a guideline. If evidence showed the student was more than proficient at the skills required I may give the opportunity to grade faster." I totally agree, and the clubs where I have trained share this philosophy, to everyone's benefit. The instructors also sometimes extend "time served" for development of patience in addition to skills.

But then, "Again, I'd like just to be thrown a belt when it was deserved and earned by my day to day performance." I liked this idea at first reading, but then thought -- part of earning a belt is the stress of testing, which doesn't occur during class (even in sparring, which is a different stress than performance). I've seen any number of (non martial-arts) students choke during exams though they "know" the material. Maybe their knowledge doesn't go all that deep yet. For some subjects, performance under stress doesn't seem at all critical but for MA, I think it may be.

Edited by hope (11/02/1109:54 PM)

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