How much do the two corelate in your opinion? Obviously there is a relationship between the two, but how much so? I have my opinion on this but sometimes it varies, lol! But I'm hoping since this is the Womens BB section that some of you here will speak on this.

that's a good question... I'm far from being an expert on this but I do believe there is "some" correlation between the two but the key is calories when it comes to growth. The other thing is that bodybuilding is very different than power lifting, I've seen incredible lifts from people that were not big at all and seen big people that weren't that strong. Technique is also a factor I guess.

I think there is definitely a correlation between the two...you do grow when you are stronger. But I agree, alot of it depends on calories. I always feel stronger when I have extra calories in my system...so I go into the gym and lift heavier, which, over time, allows me to grow...I think that calories are the key to both strength and growth.

Training is also a big factor...I mean HOW you train. I have switched to powerlifting-type workouts for my chest, and I swear, my chest is getting much thicker, and I think that my arms are growing too. I was just noticing that last night. Of course, I am in a MAJOR calorie surplus right now too.

OK so my opinion on this. Like both az and rip said, calories have to be there to grow...that is a given IMO. But I've seen people who have enormous strength and very little size and I've seen the exact opposite.

Prime example, two guys I lift with some times. Guy 1 is built like a pro BB, guy 2, just looks like he's in really good shape. Guy 1 is 240+ and guy 2 about 195...if that...and both of them stay very lean and are exactly the same height. Now, both of these guys are pretty much dead even in terms of strength on just about any lift, yet guy 1 is far more developed. So that got me to thinking, how much does strength and growth really equate to each other? Would things like joint structure and size as well as tendon strength and size play more of a role in terms of overall muscular strength? And why doesn't guy 2 have as much overall developmet as guy 1? Especially since guy 2 has been training longer? And yes, both eat very well.

I can say the same thing about females I know as well. A figure competitor I know (yes Rip, that one ) trains with a female BB now and then. The BB has a great deal more size, yet their strength is almost identical...I'd say the figure girl would actually beat the BB on several lifts.

Last example, Tony Freeman. Obviously Tony is huge, and he comes into my gym to train every once in a while. I've seen him train several times and I'm always amazed at how light he goes...I've honestly never seen him pick up a DB heavier then 80lbs. So that just creates more questions in my mind. Granted, Tony may not always train this way...maybe this is just how he does it when he's away from his regular gym.

So what then is my opinion...and this is my opinion for the most part...like I said, it can vary. But I don't think strength equates to growth. Yes, with some growth comes added strength, but not the opposite, IMO. Does that mean some of us are at a hopless end? Well that's the million dollar question.

OK, I lied, one more example...myself. I am not that big. I can hold my own with most guys strength wise, and not to sound like billy bad ass, but I'd consider myself fairly strong on many lifts, more then the majority. Yet I'm nothing special when it comes to muscular size (as Rip can attest to since she's seen me.)

Yeah I guess genetics has got to be a factor, some people are just naturally stronger than others. It's interesting...I have seen the same thing with different people. I know a guy who is like 140 and he benches over 300 in competition. You would never know it by looking at him. I am generally stronger than most women around my size, but I always have been, even when I had less muscle mass than I do now.Calories make you feel stronger, but it's prolly the growth from the calories that leads to long-term strength gains.

Yeah I guess genetics has got to be a factor, some people are just naturally stronger than others. It's interesting...I have seen the same thing with different people. I know a guy who is like 140 and he benches over 300 in competition. You would never know it by looking at him. I am generally stronger than most women around my size, but I always have been, even when I had less muscle mass than I do now.Calories make you feel stronger, but it's prolly the growth from the calories that leads to long-term strength gains.

Yeah, I agree with everything you said, but there still have to be some other factors that a lot of us miss. After all, as great as calories are for growth, and like L2H said, food is extremely anabolic, look at the difference calories can make for one individual versus another, i.e. both eat the same, relatively the same strength wise, but one gets fat the other gets bigger (muscle.) Then low and behold the guy that gets too fat too easily cuts down his calories yet in doing so he gains no size...yet his strength remains constant.

I guess this whole thread simply stems out of some of my own frustrations. I have got to be one of the most carb sensitive people on the planet, yet we all know how important carbs can be for growth...see the problem.

Granted I am a pateint person and I know finding the right mix of perfect training and diet can take a lot of trial and error. But sometimes it is so frustrating. For instance, right now I'm 35lbs lighter then I was this past spring, and I'm actually stronger then I was at the heavier weight, but growth seems to be taking a back seat...this would be due to the way Dave has me eating these days. Just really trying to stay as lean as possible but obviously need to grow more. So on the surface you'd think the way the strength has played out I'd be growing faster...guess not. But I'll take what I can get if it means not putting on as much BF.

Yeah, I agree with everything you said, but there still have to be some other factors that a lot of us miss. After all, as great as calories are for growth, and like L2H said, food is extremely anabolic, look at the difference calories can make for one individual versus another, i.e. both eat the same, relatively the same strength wise, but one gets fat the other gets bigger (muscle.) Then low and behold the guy that gets too fat too easily cuts down his calories yet in doing so he gains no size...yet his strength remains constant.

I guess this whole thread simply stems out of some of my own frustrations. I have got to be one of the most carb sensitive people on the planet, yet we all know how important carbs can be for growth...see the problem.

Granted I am a pateint person and I know finding the right mix of perfect training and diet can take a lot of trial and error. But sometimes it is so frustrating. For instance, right now I'm 35lbs lighter then I was this past spring, and I'm actually stronger then I was at the heavier weight, but growth seems to be taking a back seat...this would be due to the way Dave has me eating these days. Just really trying to stay as lean as possible but obviously need to grow more. So on the surface you'd think the way the strength has played out I'd be growing faster...guess not. But I'll take what I can get if it means not putting on as much BF.

I think it's quite variable for each individual, and it is a matter of trial and error to an extent. I too am very carb sensitive, and I am a SUPER water retainer....like ridiculous.

For me, my strength absolutely increases with my weight, which increases with my calorie intake, and I do grow (the good kind of growth) when I am both bigger and stronger. I can't believe how much stronger I am right now than I was back in May/June before Jr Nats! I worry very little about putting on BF when I am trying to grow muscle...I prolly should worry about it more, but I just try to be happy with feeling stronger and use that to my advantage in the gym. Of course, as I am saying that, I am bitching about the fact that I can't find a decent fit in a pair of jeans to save my life right now.

Of course, as I am saying that, I am bitching about the fact that I can't find a decent fit in a pair of jeans to save my life right now.

LOL, me too rip but mine are falling off

I have noticed with more BW Im stronger, but not propotionatly so. I mean right now Im down about 20-25 lbs form my fat and sort of happy BW (really like it when Im more in shape) But when fatter Im stronger but not as much as I would think.

Big stength and large full muscle bellies is a mostly genetic thing IMO. The luckiest people have both and they are the ones with the potetial to be the real freaks. The rest of the world has parts of both. In some areas gifted in others not so much.

The correlation between strength and muscle size sure is less than perfect. Take it from one (male) who falls in the category of guys who are pretty darn strong but don't look it.

If you want to see proof that strength and size don't go precisely together, browse the powerlifting boards and look at competitors in the lower weight classes. They tend to look trim and can move huge amounts of weight around. Since this is a women's board I'd note that this applies equally to women and men.

And, yes, I'm often amused by huge guys who lift light. I guess I assume that they're working on "definition" or "maintenance" but maybe that's all they can lift. Life isn't fair.

The correlation between strength and muscle size sure is less than perfect. Take it from one (male) who falls in the category of guys who are pretty darn strong but don't look it.

If you want to see proof that strength and size don't go precisely together, browse the powerlifting boards and look at competitors in the lower weight classes. They tend to look trim and can move huge amounts of weight around. Since this is a women's board I'd note that this applies equally to women and men.

And, yes, I'm often amused by huge guys who lift light. I guess I assume that they're working on "definition" or "maintenance" but maybe that's all they can lift. Life isn't fair.