Interview with PAOLA ANTONELLI

You made
design an interesting subject for museums and you created exhibitions about
global subjects regarding chronological materials. You’re coming from a country which is at the
center of design. If you compare New
York and Milan; in terms of design, Milanese design is more upfront whereas in
New York art is more at the center. Do
you agree with this statement and why?

The biggest difference is that design is normal in
Milan, good design is a normal thing. I
am a daughter of two doctors, who didn’t particularly prepare me well in design
and art, but I grew up with all the contemporary designers. I grew up with Castiglioni objects, I grew up
with my Interlubke bedroom, and there were some antique pieces from my
grandmother. There was also what you
would just find at a regular store, it’s not that my parents went and looked for
something fashionable. It’s a little bit
like recognizing whether food is good or not; you recognize that design is
good, bad or just normal. In New York
the word ‘design’ is used whenever there is added value. It’s used for objects that are too
decorative, too expensive or something that is elitist, something that you can’t
get normally. So it’s the opposite of normal that’s why everyone is going crazy
now because Philippe Starck is designing objects for the discount retailer
Target. Big deal! You know what I’m saying?It should be
normal, but instead the idea that somebody who is a ‘‘designer’’ is lowering
himself to design objects that cost five dollars seems to be such a crazy
position. In fact they say ‘‘one hundred
objects one crazy man’’ that is the slogan.
To me it’s just so funny. Big deal, he designed some really interesting
objects, for not putting him down or Target.
What I find amazing, is the way the campaign is set up to show that
something exceptional is happening.

In Europe
design objects are not so economically priced.
Do you think what Stark and Target are doing is selling design at a much
lower price?

When Flos did those little lamps, you could buy a
lamp for seventy dollars in Italy. I mean good design in Italy is at normal
prices. Because of the exports,
everything else costs at least half of the price it costs here, which is a
normal price. So to buy a lamp here for
ninety dollars, in most cases you’d have to accept some compromises in relation
to the design. I don’t know why, instead
in Italy, for the same price, you will have a greater area of possibilities.
You could go for bad taste or good taste.
It’s your freedom of choice and it’s also the fault of the press. You know, they call anything design. The media really is a little bit confused
about what design is.

Could you name
another city where design is more at the center? Are there any other cities in
the world like Milan?

I was just in Brazil.
The capital of Brazil is definitely a city where architecture is at the
center of everything. It also depends on the form of the design, for example
Tokyo for another kind of design. It
really depends… there are other cities in the world that are as visually
obsessed as New York and Milan but in a different way maybe.

What are your
thoughts about contemporary American design?

America is big and also American designers come from
all over the place. So it’s very
uneven. It’s not a phenomenon like Dutch
design or like Italian design, that at different times in history, it had a
certain consistency and certain cohesion.
Design in America really varies, so much between the East Coast and the
West Coast and then between individuals and schools. For instance, it’s funny that there are good
Turkish designers in New York and in LA there are great architects; and good
industrial designers and the best graphic designers used to be in San
Francisco. So it really varies a lot. I
just wish that Americans felt a little more secure about their design
tradition, because they have a great design tradition but they feel very
insecure.

As we saw in
the International Contemporary Furniture Fair (ICFF 2002) American design
appeared like it was still in prototype-phase, a little bit amateur, why?

I understand what you are saying. American designers don’t have much of a
choice because in Italy we have middle sized family companies. Cappellini, Cassina, B&B, Edra and
Driade. They’re all families, and
they’re middle sized. They’re not big so they can take risks. They can make good working prototypes, and
then maybe they put one into production. They have the money and the
flexibility. In the states there is a
lack of mid-sized companies that are interested in trying new designers
out. So whenever a big company like
Steelcase or Herman Miller tries a new prototype, the overhead is so enormous,
that they cannot make mistakes. So in
order not to make mistakes, they take a very conservative approach and they
only commission super famous designers. Therefore the problem is really
structural. It’s not only education or
the designer’s skills or anything, it’s really because they don’t have the
backing of companies and the backing of the whole structure like it exists in
Italy.

About the exhibitions
you’ve created, which one was more exciting for you? We read that its ‘‘Mutant
Materials’’ but that was two years ago.

But it’s still Mutant Materials. It was the most fun
to make because it was the first one here so it was really interesting because
I had lots of freedom. It was my first exhibition, everybody was saying ‘‘let
her do whatever she wants’’ it was a lot of fun. It was my first experience of seeing people
in the galleries, so I really liked it.
I liked every other exhibition too but that one was the most fun to
prepare.

What is your
next project or book?

I am working on two books, one of them is on the
design collection here at MoMA that’s coming out in a year. It’s an illustrated
book with essays about design objects. Then I am working on a book which is my
own, my project. It’s about food from
all over the world as great examples of design.
I don’t know when it’s coming out.
Then I am working on an exhibition for MoMA. It’s a strange story because it’s an
exhibition that I had proposed in March 2001.
At that time it was entitled ‘‘Emergency’’ with a subheading; ‘‘When
Good Design is a Matter of Life or Death.’’ It was an exhibition on fire trucks
and their emergency equipment, anti-mine booths. Then 11th September
2001 happened. We had worked on it for
eight months, everyone at the museums was like ‘‘Oh my God’’. So then we took
it off the schedule saying that we can’t do it.
But then we regretted it, because everyone was interested in that
subject. So I renamed it ‘‘Safe’’; now I
am working on it again, and now it doesn’t really have a position in the
schedule because in the meantime the schedule was filled. I am looking for a
good time to do it. And finally when
everyone commented on the fact I was not going to do the exhibition I proposed
a TV program instead.

Are there any
designers you admire always?

I love Christopher Dresser because even though he
lived during the 19th century he was creating shapes that could have
been designed yesterday. I really like that.
I like the ancient Greeks because of the same reason. They were so modern and if we come more
towards our times I still love Achilles Castiglioni. He is my master; he was my teacher. There are so many designers that I like.
Among the ones that I am working with, I like Hella Jongerius very much. I like
Ayse Birsel’s work a lot, I like Ali Tayar, I like the Campana brothers. I also like historically important architects
such as Le Corbusier and Carlo Scarpa and John Lautner. I like objects more
than I like designers. There are some
objects that really make me cry, some are so beautiful, perhaps some don’t even
have a designer like ‘Post-it’ notes.

Do you think
that museums have enough architectural exhibitions?

MoMA and Pompidou in Paris
are doing them but what about other museums and cultural centers? I think there is enough architecture, however there
aren’t enough design exhibitions. In
terms of architecture I see a lot of exhibitions happening. MOCA in LA are doing an exhibition called
‘’Hundred Years of Architecture’’, that will tour around the world. There are museums that are devoted to
architecture; for instance the Canadian Center for Architecture in Quebec, or
the Whitney Museum of American Art in New York.
There are exhibitions on architecture pretty much everywhere. It’s funny because exhibitions of
architecture are difficult for the public. Not many people know how to read a
technical drawing. Therefore unless you
do it well and you make an effort to be really inclusive with the public, it
might not work out. Design exhibitions
are even worse to think about. They’re
the ones that aren’t happening. Especially contemporary design. In the States
there are hardly any, except for the Cooper-Hewitt Design Museum in New
York. Architecture here and all over the
world has an established position already as a cultural reference for
people. Design is still a little
confused because people don’t really know why they should admire a big pen
unless you explain what the wonder is in a big pen. You can’t really expect
people to really have such respect as they have for architecture that took
years and billions to build. It’s about
trying to explain how amazing design is and everything that goes into it.

What are your
thoughts about museum stores? What is the future of museum stores? The MoMA
store in Soho is a store itself, can the MoMA store exist outside of New York
without the MoMA museum? Could there be one in Miami or Istanbul?

The Metropolitan Museum has done that and its working
very well. I don’t think we are ready to do that. We want to keep the brand
close. We aren’t going to open museum
branches around the world. We already
produce our own objects. We have a
special catalogue but its MoMA products only, so those go around the
world. You can go around the world and
find a lot of MoMA products. But as far
as opening stores, I don’t think it’s not viable yet. I don’t think we have
that intention yet.

How do you
select the products?

There’s a whole department; its called retail, they
work on this. There’s a department that
has inside marketing people, buyers and people that develop products. So it’s a big collaboration. I work with them a lot. The buyers travel all
over the world. They go to all the
fairs. They pick up objects and then
bring them back and order samples. We
meet once in a room filled with staff.
We just say yes or no, discuss and I also give suggestions. People send me objects, then there is another
person developing products so she shows me the products and we discuss them
together. At times I find a product and
send them to her. It really works that
way and the criteria has a lot to do with marketing and sales. There is a lot of pragmatism. They are running a store, at the same time
there is continuous consciousness and respect for the image of MoMA.

What are your
ideas about museum stores as a source for other museums?

It depends on the museum. If a museum like MoMA is so devoted to
design. It makes perfect sense to have
products that are made under the label.
Especially a museum like MoMA which is devoted to a certain quality and
design. That means that any product that
has the MoMA label is a well-designed product and has a guarantee of quality
for the public. In the 40’s the museum
used to have a program in collaboration with the Merchandise Mart in Chicago
called ‘Good Design Exhibition’.
Basically, the curators of the museum would pick certain objects
produced in America but they would give the Good Design label to, these objects
were then exhibited. These were all
consumer products like tea pots, normal things that you could buy everywhere, a
hairbrush for example. In that case MoMA
was not producing anything but putting a label of Good Design on to things, so
producing things is an even stronger statement.
I think it’s absolutely fine for museums to produce things if they stand
for quality. You just need to be
creative, consistent and focus on high quality and then why not? If you have
something to sell as a souvenir, as a product.
I don’t have a moral problem with that, I think it’s a very good idea.

Products sold
in the MoMA sore are more conservative compared to the products that are
exhibited in the museum. What is the
reason for this?

It is an eternal argument and discussion between
us. They try to sell what brings in
money. They cannot be too
adventurous. They have a business to
run. Sometimes we take risks but you
also see what people want and buy. I
have learned a lot from them. I’ve been
working with them very closely for the past 4-5 years, I’ve learned a lot. I understand and respect what they do and
they understand me. It’s a really a great
collaboration and I really enjoy working with them.

Many designers
have an architectural background.
Especially Italian designers. Can
we say that architects are more successful when it comes to design?

I think that architectural schools, at least how it
is done in Italy, provide very good training for designers. When I went to
architectural school in Italy, we were taught very general as well as very
specific subjects at the same time. They
were general because we were taught a lot of history, history of architecture,
history of art, history of design, philosophy.
Hegel, Adorno, Heidegger, Jung… history was really taught and studied
seriously. There is one course I took in
which the test was an oral test. You had
to draw by memory, by heart, about 180 different church plans. So it was really serious, and at the same
time you also had to study building sciences, mathematics, very specific studies
and design was part of it. What came out
of that was a sense of scale that doesn’t really matter. Design is more of a strategy, a way of
thinking, but can be applied to a building, applied to an object or applied to
a poster of course. The materials and
techniques involved are different. When you are designing a building it’s a
matter of how concrete works. You must understand what you need to do as well
as knowing what tools to use; plastics for design, concrete for architecture,
ink for print; so for me it was the best preparation. But instead if you go to a school that only
specializes in design; you have a restricted view that can end up being almost
artistic which is a very big loss.

Since there
are not that many contemporary architects coming from Italy, do you think
history can hinder contemporary architecture?

There aren’t many good architects coming from any
part of the world. There are hundreds of
architects but only a very small percentage of good architects. If you think about it, Italy produced Renzo
Piano, France has many great contemporary architects, Spain has many good
too. I don’t think it’s a
hindrance. There are always 5-6
architects from each country that are really outstanding. If you see countries that don’t have
tradition they are not particularly better at contemporary architecture. It’s not that America has better contemporary
architects from the rest of the world.

MoMA moved
from Fifth Avenue to the periphery in Queens.
What is the meaning of this? Why Queens?What is the importance of being
in Queens?

We knew we were going into a construction period and
we didn’t want to keep the art where you have dust and vibration. So we knew we had to move the museum
elsewhere. But before that, we had already bought the Queens building, because
we wanted to consolidate all of our storage.
This is because we have dozens of different storage facilities in Connecticut
and New Jersey where all the art is. So
we had bought this building in order to use as storage, and we have bought it
here because it’s close enough to the midtown location; easy to access; secure;
it has two big loading bays. So it’s
perfect for that. We also searched
midtown for a building where we could have a temporary museum, but no building
was good enough in terms of security and climate control; we always had some
problems. So the director at some point
said ‘‘we’re already upgrading the building in queens’’ because if you have art
storage, it has to have a specific humidity, climate control, perfect
security. ‘‘Why don’t we make it into
the museum?’’ The decision came from this change in events, but in my opinion
it is a really bold and strong decision because it will remain in history. This
area will change because of this, you will see, it is going to change and it’s
going to be such an important public image move too, coming to the boroughs,
more than the periphery this is the boroughs, the other boroughs. New York has a tendency to be so focused on
Manhattan. Personally, I prefer Queens to midtown with all my heart. It’s very interesting to open up to the rest
of the world, then we will go back when the museum will double in size in 2004-2005. This will stay as a study center, storage and
also there might be some exhibitions so it will stay.

We polluted
the world in the twentieth century; and unconsciously design also contributed
to this pollution. What do you think
about design’s responsibility?

I think design always has to be responsible and
ethical. There is not one moment in
history where design has been immoral or unethical. They are just learning curves I guess,
especially with new materials; many designers did not really know what would
happen. With Polyurethane foam for
instance, that is not recyclable, doesn’t last long, there was an innocent
mistake to use it so much. Now that
people know, we are trying to find alternatives. I think design has a lot of
responsibility, like to make objects that last longer and definitely made with
sustainable materials. Global Architectural Development has been a leader in research and concept design in Europe since 1990. The firm is headed by design principal Gokhan Avcioglu who works with a dedicated international staff of architects and collaborators. GAD believes that current architecture and urbanism are influenced by media, culture, technological innovations, consumer habits and how these factors affect the built environment at different scales.GAD’s success lies in its methodical research of our client’s programmatic requirements, an iterative process of digital and physical modeling and meticulous process innovation. GAD believes that architecture as a practice relies on understanding historical architectural movements as well as research and experimentation. GAD is continuously finding new ways to combine these issues in compelling and thought-provoking ways.The firm’s main office is in Istanbul and additional offices in New York, Bodrum, Kazan and Kiev. GAD & Gokhan Avcioglu have designed a wide range of projects from the small scale of a private home to the large scale of an urban masterplan. While many of their realized projects are highly recognized public facilities, such as cultural centers, they have also completed several distinguished private projects including apartment buildings, offices and hotels.The practice has been awarded with numerous prizes.

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