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It's the latter, I'm afraid, but this time he has gone about in a simplistic manner to tackle his favorite subject and is more reserved at giving his opinion on the matter. His topic of discussion follows the similar thoughts that are seen in GitS. GitS main focus was cyberbrain/ghost and the discarding of humanity to attain such feats by few such as Motoko, but at the same time there were subject of cloning and such, i.e. the Columbian hero who had several look-alike with ghost dubbing, and where the question of who-is-the-original became moot. In this movie he concentrates on the psychological affect others may carry just by being involved with such individual.

I'm excluding one key-word here on the last sentence just in case, but the post will make sense once you've watched the movie. The philosophy derives itself from the content without Oshi's imposition on the matter he is so fond of doing. Yeah, he is shockingly less opinionated on this time around, but not completely devoid of it.

Spoiler for further thoughts:

That is one way to look it. Certainly, the fate of the Kildren are chillingly similar to the predicament of highly advanced cyborgs like Motoko Kusanagi, so it's not surprising to see the same effects of everlasting youth on the protagonists of The Sky Crawlers.

However, because of the way Oshii changed the ending of the novel in his movie adaptation (in the book, Kannami kills Suito Kusanagi), this movie is nowhere near as dense as Innocence or Ghost in the Shell.

Its key theme is fairly straightforward: It's about the tedium of daily life, and how we all seek a way to escape from it.

For the people of The Sky Crawler's world, war had become entertainment for the masses. Through the death of others, ordinary folk are reminded about the preciousness of being alive. It's a horrid affair, but the sheer evil of the situation had long since escaped the public mind, although it did appear to weigh heavily on the conscience of at least two people: the Jewish bartender and the listless old man who sat constantly on the front steps of the diner.

We are part of the plot
What's interesting is the way in which Oshii chose to portray the horror. Rather than stunning his audience with scenes of gratuitous gore, as per Spielberg's Saving Private Ryan, he chose instead to construct a movie where the audience themselves become a complicit part of the scandal.

Consider, for example, how the average audience member complains about the lack of action in the movie; how he wishes that the massive aerial battle in the later part of the movie lasted longer, because it is so damned cool. By bombarding us with tedium instead of action, Oshii cunningly reveals that we, the audience, are no better than the remorseless adults of this dystopian world, who wish for death of innocents to dispel their boredom.

And yes, the Kildren are hapless innocents, because of their lack of care and conscience. The adults may be trapped in a meaningless, neverending present of their own making, but for the Kildren, that is the entirety of their existence.

The Kildren have no future. And, if there is no tomorrow to live for, why bother living? Like the adults, the Kildren are truly alive only when they face death in combat.

Meaning in struggle
Early in the movie, Kannami dropped a passing reference to Albert Camus, the writer of the Absurd. It is an apt analogy, because Camus' philosophy first assumes that existence is meaningless. It is only through the struggle to live that we find meaning in our otherwise dreary lives.

Similarly, everyone in the movie is seeking an escape from this meaningless struggle, even though it is the struggle itself that defines us. Hence the "miraculous" nature of the movie's ending, where Kannami refused to kill Kusanagi, telling her to struggle on for the Kildrens' sake.

As Mitsuya had correctly observed, Kusanagi was on the verge of mental breakdown. She had seen so many iterations of pilots coming and going through Alice Base that she was reaching the end of her sanity. No one except the mechanic Sasakura seemed to realise that Kusanagi cared deeply about the fate of her fellow Kildren. She had survived long enough to realise the cruelty of their destiny, but at the same time, she didn't know how to end it. Hence her growing cynicism that threatened to consume her completely.

Nothing ever changed, no matter how hard she tried. Bearing a child of her own, Mizuki, was her first act of rebellion; through her daughter, Kusanagi had the rare but painful pleasure of watching "herself" grow up, watching herself change before her eyes.

But other than Mizuki, nothing else changed. That is, until Kannami came along. For the first time in her experience, a clone broke the cycle, and proved that things could be different. He proved that nothing was inevitable, that there was always a choice. Kusanagi could choose to give up by committing suicide, or she could continue with the struggle. After all, her youth is eternal — time is on her side.

And that, is the crux of Oshii's message. It's quite simple, yes. But the delivery was oh so exquisite.

And, by the way...

Spoiler for the heart of the mystery:

Spoiler for last warning, please avoid if you've not watched the movie:

...I wonder if anyone came to the same conclusion I did: Kusanagi had loved only one man her whole life.

Spoiler for last warning, please avoid if you've not watched the movie:

...I wonder if anyone came to the same conclusion I did: Kusanagi had loved only one man her whole life.

Kannami was The Teacher's clone.

Spoiler for movie specific:

Yeap... that tiny little fact completes the brutality of this whole war-game that is taking place. Me and 4Tran were joking about shipping few weeks back and 4Tran said that he tried to change his username to Sisyphus, but someone already took it.

Can you imagine what Kusanagi goes through everytime another Sensei shows up under different aliases who resembles the original to the last minute detail?

That tiny little fact added so much to complete the picture and answered why at the beginning of the movie Sensei came back to finish the pilot with the machine gun after he destroyed the plane, or why the dog sniffed at the broken match stick, or why the old man at the steps who can never look up so he won't be haunted by a familiar face from the past, or why everybody that are playing this war-game long enough have those bags under their eyes, or why Yuiichi started hyperventilating when the first time he saw the black-Cougar on Sensei's plane, or why Kusanagi is needed.... and why these clones of sensei will never surpass the Sensei.

Two particular dialogue that struck me really hard because I recognize those statement to be sound. [1] When Kusanagi said that war is needed to remind humanity what the term peace means. [2] In the interview where Yuiichi gives that horrible smile for the camera... this lady comments, "I know war is always horrible, you are fighting for a peaceful world."

It's true. We need to be in turmoil to appreciate happiness, otherwise we will not understand what happiness is. In this instance, humanity's approach is a sound one... why have ourselves in jeopardy when we can create our own replica in abundance to play our war-game.

Terrifying to think about such future. Humanity's past is horrible, but the bleak reminder from Oshi is that we have no where near scratched the surface of what we are capable of in terms of creating misery for ourselves.

Btw, I'm a fan of GitS: Innocence to the point of raving. I think the movie features the kind of background imagery only Beyond the Cloud can match and no other animated feature came remotely close at matching. Getting through the story was easy after witnessing such visual delight.

__________________

Eat and sleep!Sig by RRW.Nanatsu no Taizai! Why haven't you watched it?Executive member of the ASS. Ready to flee at the first sign of trouble.

This movie made me sad in a way that....it means these Kildrens will fight this meaningless and absurd war forever, looping again and again until the concept of being human has no meaning at all. It is depressingly bleak.

The commercialization of violence is also hinted here, people become careless with meaning of death since things is for sale, even human souls in Sky Crawlers. My head is spinning thinking on how inhumane on whole setting is.

Spoiler for Spoiler for Kusanagi:

So the new pilots we keep seeing and get clobbered by the Teacher is clone of himself hence she sees her lover clone with different name all the time? No wonder she is going insane.

The thing to think about is after you have watched imo is, When is the price of peace to high?
When we create a race, or technolgy to eliminate those ordinary humans from dieing? To save our lives we create another life to fight in our stead, is the peace worth having? Do we deserve peace?

This movie made me sad in a way that....it means these Kildrens will fight this meaningless and absurd war forever, looping again and again until the concept of being human has no meaning at all. It is depressingly bleak.

Spoiler for my interpretation of the ending:

Actually, I think it was a happy ending. Much depends on how you interpret the epilogue. Kusanagi greeted the new clone, Hiiragi, with a half-smile, saying, "I've been waiting for you."

It seems to suggest that she had broken out of her depression and found something worth striving for, thanks to Kannami's sacrifice. So, yes, the cycle continues, but it's no longer as inevitable as it used to be.

Quote:

Spoiler for Spoiler for Kusanagi:

So the new pilots we keep seeing and get clobbered by the Teacher is clone of himself hence she sees her lover clone with different name all the time? No wonder she is going insane.

I just realise the dog seem to recognize the clones?

Spoiler for Suito Kusanagi:

Yup, pretty much. I had wondered if others came to the same conclusion, because none of the blogs I've read so far commented on the revelation. But thanks to monir, I'm assured that it wasn't so difficult to guess after all.

On my first viewing, I was caught by surprise when Kannami suddenly proclaimed: "I'll kill my father." But after my second and third viewing, I realised that the clues had been scattered throughout the movie.

For example:
(1) Both Kannami and The Teacher used the same dogfighting tactic to deadly effect: a mid-air stall followed by a snap roll to destroy a pursuing enemy at point-blank range.

(2) If you study Kusanagi's personality carefully, you'd realise that a woman like her would never again fall in love with another man. And yet, she loved Jinroh before Kannami, and The Teacher long before either one of them. Kannami himself realised that The Teacher was Mizuki's father. After that, it didn't take very long for him to realise The Teacher's identity, especially after he saw Yudagawa's clone (the one who folded newspapers obsessively).

As for the dog, I'm not sure if it understood that each clone was a different "person". As far as it was concerned, they all probably smelt and looked the same; to the animal, every clone was, in effect, the same person. That's probably why it eagerly greets every new pilot that comes to the base: it thinks its owners have returned home.

I would have thought the old man sat outside the diner was going to have something to do with the story (or he did and i just didn't notice). They focused on him quite a lot.

He is....his refusal to look at incoming pilots to the bar is a sign of his mental exhaustion. The sorrowful look with thousand yard stare of him is very compelling if you think further. Unlike the villagers who played ignorance, he did feel something is not right with the setup.

It good to see most of the post are positive about the movie i have been holding off watching till i could see what most people thought of it so i will cut some time out this weekend to watch it and give my own feedback.

It is pretty tough movie to watch for me since the moral dissonance is so pungent. Mamoru Oshii just present the story as it is, so is the novelist... just the whole idea behind this movie just sickens me so much. Humanity is truly on the brink of moral bankruptcy in Sky Crawlers. Hence my empathy for the exhausted old man in the bar.

He is....his refusal to look at incoming pilots to the bar is a sign of his mental exhaustion. The sorrowful look with thousand yard stare of him is very compelling if you think further. Unlike the villagers who played ignorance, he did feel something is not right with the setup.

No i know that, i just had the thought that he was going to play a part in the main story of the movie. Looks like i was just looking to much into it. Doesn't matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinestra

It good to see most of the post are positive about the movie i have been holding off watching till i could see what most people thought of it so i will cut some time out this weekend to watch it and give my own feedback.

Make sure you watch it soon. It's one movie that should not be missed.

It's the typical Japanese War-is-horrible-pacifist bollocks. Clones of the Teacher to keep the fighting going forever?? I say it's just a convenient way for the writer to make the movie seem deep while having no real depth at all. All the different technologies mixed together with the WW2 setting is just an easy cop-out for forsaking research and creative thought that could have made a cohesive, original, fantasy-like setting or a series period-piece.

Spoiler for Spoiler:

The Whole Kildren/Clone is just one big Deus Ex Machina to keep the otherwise mediocre movie moving along. Yeah, introduce some contrived technology so that you will not have to actually develop a plot and make sure it's cohesive. There's no build up, the plot is stringed along with the unraveling of Kildren, or clones of The Teacher so that the movie seems like it got somewhere.

At least Ghost in the Shell series has enough plot to it, not to have resort to familiar period pieces and contrived deus ex machina to keep the setting going.

I don't know about this one. I *liked* it, but it sure as hell was not the best anime movie I've seen. FAR from it in fact...

For one, the dourness is typical in a Mamoru Oshii is there, but it sort of seems misplaced. Characters angsting out over cigarettes (I don't trust anyone who doesn't smoke! Give me a smoke. Got a smoke? Can I smoke? SMOKE-PLEASE?) was not only weird, but seemed just unnecessary.

A lot of the dialogue was just there to make an 'adult' mood about things instead of focusing more about the theme of the story it seemed.

And of course, the main plot.... oh where do I even begin.... it's like the entire reasoning for the pilots is like a deus ex machina. For one, we are magically supposed to assume that they're immortal due to medicines or something. Then we have two companies engaging in an OPEN HOSTILE WARFARE and the rest of the populace just sits around with this, all fine and dandy. And finally, they're in a Western European nation (let's just say.... The UK), and the pilots are all Japanese? HUH?

It had some moments of good moments, but this movie just felt overlong and the plotdevices are either pointless or just came out of the thin air. Oshii wasted too much time with idle and mindless chatter and unnecessary moments (10 minutes of BOWLING? come on..) took away from what could have been more respectable as a film. TWO HOURS for such little substance as far as the plot and even characterizations? It could've been 1 hour and do everything the main plot set out to do.

And finally, they're in a Western European nation (let's just say.... The UK), and the pilots are all Japanese? HUH?

This is like saying if the movie was made in Korea and they'd end up speaking Korean. There's nothing much to it at all.

I can't blame anyone for disliking the slow nature of pretty much every scene in this film, though personally it's one of the parts that i loved so much about it. It's the fact that it didn't have to roll at a normal pace, i loved it for doing something that stands out --- something that Oshii is known for doing.

As for the smoking, it was a good connection between the cast. Especially Kannami and Kusanagi.

You're entitled to your opinions and certainly, since it's Oshii we're talking about, this movie is bound to attract both critical praise and criticism.

But for f*ck sake, at least have the courtesy to use spoiler tags where necessary.

The movie has barely opened in few cinemas worldwide, R1 DVDs are not yet released, and though the torrent is out at your usual places, you can bet many people have not yet seen the movie. Have some consideration dammit.

You're entitled to your opinions and certainly, since it's Oshii we're talking about, this movie is bound to attract both critical praise and criticism.

But for f*ck sake, at least have the courtesy to use spoiler tags where necessary.

The movie has barely opened in few cinemas worldwide, R1 DVDs are not yet released, and though the torrent is out at your usual places, you can bet many people have not yet seen the movie. Have some consideration dammit.

Is that really a spoiler? It's something that I'd expect to see on a synopsis. You know "War is Hell!!!" and all that.

It's the typical Japanese War-is-horrible-pacifist bollocks. Clones of the Teacher to keep the fighting going forever?? I say it's just a convenient way for the writer to make the movie seem deep while having no real depth at all. All the different technologies mixed together with the WW2 setting is just an easy cop-out for forsaking research and creative thought that could have made a cohesive, original, fantasy-like setting or a series period-piece.

Spoiler for Spoiler:

The Whole Kildren/Clone is just one big Deus Ex Machina to keep the otherwise mediocre movie moving along. Yeah, introduce some contrived technology so that you will not have to actually develop a plot and make sure it's cohesive. There's no build up, the plot is stringed along with the unraveling of Kildren, or clones of The Teacher so that the movie seems like it got somewhere.

At least Ghost in the Shell series has enough plot to it, not to have resort to familiar period pieces and contrived deus ex machina to keep the setting going.

The movie has a theme of repetition and you're complaining about parts of it being repetitious and the war being repetitious/never ending because they keep/repeatedly making clones of the Teacher? Okay.

This is like saying if the movie was made in Korea and they'd end up speaking Korean. There's nothing much to it at all.

I can't blame anyone for disliking the slow nature of pretty much every scene in this film, though personally it's one of the parts that i loved so much about it. It's the fact that it didn't have to roll at a normal pace, i loved it for doing something that stands out --- something that Oshii is known for doing.

As for the smoking, it was a good connection between the cast. Especially Kannami and Kusanagi.

The thing about the nationalities is that they didn't make any effort to make it seem like the Kildren are some naturalized citizens. It looks to me like they purposely chose Japanese pilots as a bit of an unnatural playthings for war. Not only is that messed up, but it just defies logic. Why can't they just get fellow Brits (again, I'm assuming) if they could? I just didn't like how they had to split languages like that. That only made things more confusing and less believable for me. Just make them all speak Japanese for all I care.

And yeah, the smoking had a weird correlation with Kanami and Kusanagi.. weird in that Mamoru Oshii way. Also that weird Basset Hound fetish of Oshii's...

Is that really a spoiler? It's something that I'd expect to see on a synopsis. You know "War is Hell!!!" and all that.

*sigh*

Spoiler for why do I even bother now that the secret is out?:

Because Kannami being The Teacher's clone is the bloody twist, among other things. And you happily gave it away without a care. Well done.

When it comes to anime, movies or TV programmes, it's very hard to make a show that is both intelligent and entertaining. Usually, most go for the latter: It's easier to entertain people than it is to make them think. That's the exact same problem Oshii suffers as a film-maker. He makes intelligent, but extremely boring, movies. So, yes, I don't blame anyone for hating The Sky Crawlers for being a tedious show, because it is. It expects too much of its audience and it proves that, in the end, it's hard for a leopard to change its spots: Oshii remains very much a self-indulgent storyteller.

Frankly, I do sympathise with you. It's not surprising that all you got from the movie is the message, "War is Hell!", because a lot of its plot is left unspoken; it's been delivered in those pregnant pauses first made famous by the late playwright Harold Pinter, and used frequently in Japanese shows, probably because it fits their stoic national character so well.

At the same time, though, it also indicates that you had not watched the movie closely enough, to understand why quite a number of people think it's a critical — if not a commercial — success. Is that the film-maker's fault, or his audience's? In my opinion, both are equally to blame. The former for being inscrutable; the latter for not trying hard enough to see the few details that he does carefully reveal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

The thing about the nationalities is that they didn't make any effort to make it seem like the Kildren are some naturalized citizens. It looks to me like they purposely chose Japanese pilots as a bit of an unnatural playthings for war. Not only is that messed up, but it just defies logic.

The way I see it — and this is by no means canon; I don't know how the novels actually handled it — the Kildren are company products, possibly first created in Japan, hence their all-Japanese names. The use of English during radio chatter is probably an acknowledgement of its status as a lingua franca — it allows the pilots to understand each other regardless of which country they are deployed in. The Kildren in Alice Base spoke Japanese, true, but that's possibly because of artistic licence — they could have been speaking some other language, but for the sake of convenience, we hear them speaking Japanese (and whatever language the movie will be dubbed in) instead.

As for the smoking, I think that's simply because it looks cool, and also because it's a Japanese film. The Japanese have fewer hang-ups about tobacco use than Americans do. In fact, most Western Europeans I knew from university hardly care either.

He makes intelligent, but extremely boring, movies. So, yes, I don't blame anyone for hating The Sky Crawlers for being a tedious show, because it is. It expects too much of its audience and it proves that, in the end, it's hard for a leopard to change its spots: Oshii remains very much a self-indulgent storyteller.

Yeah, judging from some Japanese films usually being shown on the late-night WOWOW slots (by experience of many nights till dawn), are art-house, made for an intelligentsia audience, who like very deep philosophical themes and read websites like The Midnight Eye, try to keep awake while watching (maybe not once but three times), ponder and analyze the problems of war, violence and conflict, and Sky Crawlers fits right in as well.