More than a few transgender people feel they’ve been sold out by the gay-rights movement and lament the way the “T” in “L.G.B.T.” always comes last. It makes me think, “A bunch of straight people in a room? That’s a conversation. A bunch of L.G.B.T. people in a room? That’s an argument.”

When you look at the staggering statistics concerning the struggles of transgender people, it’s easy to understand resentment over the amount of resources put into the fight for marriage rights. Transgender people, according to a nationwide study released early this year by the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and the National Center for Transgender Equality, are nearly four times more likely to live in poverty than the general population. Forty-one percent of respondents reported attempting suicide; of those who came out as students, 78 percent reported harassment, 35 percent physical assault and 12 percent sexual violence. Nineteen percent said they had been homeless. Among transgender people of color, the numbers are even worse…

It is painful that the pressing issues of trans-rights seem forgotten beneath the din of wedding bells, but progress in civil rights can only come with the numbers and resources found in unity. Gay men and lesbians, for their part, ought to remember, on the way home from Niagara Falls, that it was drag queens and transsexuals at Stonewall who began this fight.

– Trans writer and GLAAD board member Jennifer Finney Boylan, discussing the loss of trans politics amid the marriage equality battle in her New York Times op-ed, “We Want Cake, Too.”

Jennifer Boylan is the same person who lashed out and attacked the gay community the DAY that marriage became legal in New York.

She is only interested in attacking the gay community it seems. She could not even give the community ONE DAY to celebrate such a major victory without attacking it.

I notice two things about her statement here.

1. There are no solutions proposed. She is just lashing out and attacking the gay community and then citing stats about Transgender people living in poverty. I’m curious, why isn’t she attacking the Congress for pulling funds from poverty and outreach programs? Why isn’t she attacking our officials for the economic downturn that is related to that? Of course she won’t. Because her main point in life now is to attack the gay community.

2. If the gay community so consistently ignores Trans rights. Then please explain two things to me….

Why did the community pull the ENDA bill when it didn’t contain protection for Transgender rights? The community would have had Federal ENDA legislation if not for that.

Also, marriage HELPS transgendered rights. Even if their fight for full recognition of their gender is lagging, with gay marriage legalized they can at least LEGALLY marry their partners no matter what their legal gender is.

But of course Miss Boylan isn’t interested in pointing that out. She is the type of person that doesn’t care whether or not anybody is helped or not as long as she gets to attack the people she hates.

Not all trans folks want to be part of our community. Many identify as straight and only come around when they want us to advocate for their rights.

And “marriage minded gays” have also forgotten about HIV/AIDS in our community. Rates of infection have increased among young gay men, but you don’t see much activism at all about this.

Aug 12, 2011 at 10:47 am · @Reply ·

JayKay

GAY people are worrying about GAY rights first and foremost? SHOCK! HORROR! OUTRAGE! Yawn. Seriously fuck these whiny, obnoxious, little trannies who expect gays to put their own rights on the back-burner so they can spend their time and money campaigning on behalf of trans rights instead. I’m not transgendered. I’m not QTAIBL. I’m gay, I’m going to focus on issues and fights impacting gay people. Get the fuck over it and stop expecting me to put your tranny ass first.

By the way I only have one brother, thank you very much.

Aug 12, 2011 at 10:56 am · @Reply ·

Abirdwillingtobeitself

An argument? Jennifer is the one starting an argument. It seems she doesn’t want to get along with LGBs – which I think is true of many transsexuals.

Aug 12, 2011 at 10:58 am · @Reply ·

evanb

Putting on my flame-retardent hat for this, but why exactly are the Ts in with the Ls, the Gs, and the Bs anyway? Being gay or lesbian (or bi somewhere on the Kinsey scale) is not about being in the wrong body, is not “correctable” through chems and surgery, and is generally not on the same playing field as our transgendered friends. Our issues are not the same (oh, if we raise them up to 35,000 feet it’s about social acceptance and being who you are, but Chas Bono’s day-to-day challenges are not George Michaels’). The Ts get all huffy when they get lumped in with gay drag queens, and most drag queens are not “being” women but commenting on it (or excessively celebrating it or just being pretty or whatever). The homosexual rights movement is about homosexuals; many Ts are not sexually “confused” but, as has been pointed out, are straight and want to live straight-acculturated lives as straight men and women having the traditional heterosexual relationships, rights, and privileges that are denied to gay men and lesbians. The kind of vitriol and unpleasantness expressed in the editorial here, as well as what bubbled up during the ENDA debate, just show how ill-fitting the relationship between GLB and T is. If the homosexual rights’ movement is just about inclusiveness, then we really need to add letters for race, physical and mental disability, age, weight, and height. Seriously, get your own movement, ladies and gentlemen, and stop trying to hijack other peoples’.

I do support and champion and fight for Trans Equality – even though I’m just a gay man. Just as my non-gay family and friends fight for, promote, and CHAMPION LGBT Equality, even though none of them are LGBT.

I fight hard for Transgender rights and awareness and understanding, but you have to offer applicable plans and solutions, not complaints.

That said, gay men like JayKay do not in any way represent ME as a gay man, nor a mindset I respect – I don’t only care about things that affect me, i care about things that affect others. It’s called Empathy.

If gay men won’t stand up for and fight for trans people, then gay men can fucking forget having the support of the non-gay communities.

It seems if LGBs are such a disservice to the T, the T could say peace out, we are going to do this on our own.

Williams Institute estimates .3% of the US population is transgender. There is a reason, they are part of a larger movement, their numbers are so small and sparse that they need the larger community to help.

Finally- Yes, I know there were drag queens at Stonewall. There were all types of people at Stonewall. Drag queens did not start the gay right movement any more than lesbians or gay men did. The movement started long before Stonewall.

Aug 12, 2011 at 11:06 am · @Reply ·

Eric

THIS ARTICLE MAKES ME UNCOMFORTABLE BECAUSE IT’S TRUE AND MAKES ME FEEL GUILTY THEREFOR I’M GOING TO LASH OUT AND PROVE HER POINT COMPLETELY WHILE LIVING A PRIVILEGED CISGENDER LIFE WHERE I DON’T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT BEING KILLED EVERY TIME I USE A BATHROOM IN PUBLIC.

Aug 12, 2011 at 11:10 am · @Reply ·

Kamuriie

People like Jennifer Boylan are specifically why the gay community isn’t thrilled by transgender advocacy trying to latch on to ours. There is no widespread consensus that the gay community is, in fact, the “LGBT” community–we’re bound together by common interests relating to equality for our sexual orientation.

Orientation is a sexual identity. Transgendered people suffer from a birth defect–they were born with the wrong bodies. How do they have anything to do with each other, other than that crazy religious people despise both?

I sympathize with transgendered people. But fighting for my own rights, without thinking about some other group’s rights first, is not a sin.

Transgender activists have my vote or signature for whatever equality measure they want to try and pass. Except that they’re not unified, and they argue over basic terms and concepts.

@Kamuriie: I agree Kam. It is really rather disturbing to read and watch the internal mutiny in the trans community over basic terms and what to call themselves. How can you have an effective lobbying & policy strategy when you can’t even agree on who is part of your community.

I believe the LGB & the T are link- because so much of the discrimination we face is due to going against gender norms. I used to be a huge advocate for the t community, but have been yelled at or chastised about my privilege so much I just said fuck it. Ivory tower intellectual elitism run amok.

Aug 12, 2011 at 11:22 am · @Reply ·

Abirdwillingtobeitself

Rereading what Jennifer wrote, I’m surprised that she’s a GLAAD board member. I don’t know how an activist can fail to understand that she needs to stand up for her own rights. I notice that she mentions people of color as a matter of form, only to say that the statistics are “worse” for them. How worse? She doesn’t tell us the numbers, because people of color aren’t on her radar. Kind of like Ts aren’t on the radar for LBGs, isn’t it, Jennifer?

Aug 12, 2011 at 11:24 am · @Reply ·

Michael

Feel free to have your own movement, thanks very much. I, among many others, don’t feel the need for the “T” (or the “B”) so feel free to go on your way. We are, at the core, a GAY movement. Not a poverty movement, and, no, not a trans movement. Trans folks hijacked themselves onto the gay movement for their own self-serving reasons. Don’t like how it’s working out for ya? Again, have your own movement.

Aug 12, 2011 at 11:32 am · @Reply ·

Spike

The T always comes last huh, why is the T even included? Last I checked the LGB all involve sexual orientation. What part of T reflects sexual orientation? Trans boys and girls are fierce but the fact is, their uniqueness reflects sexual identification and to pretend that it involves sexual orientation is false.

Case in point, Chas Bono, female to male trans, identifies as a male and sexually attracted to females, thus, heterosexual.

I can remind you that if it wasn’t for the trans folk (both transsexual and transgender), there would have been no Stonewall. While there are many who do question the modern day relationship between the gay/lesbian and transgender/transsexual community, I see the commonality is that we are all a “sexual minority”.

My main issue with the GLBT Mainstream Organizations (which some call “Gay Inc.”) claim that they cover “trans” issues and they lobby for “trans” rights. The problem is that national organizations like HRC, GLAAD, NCLR and the state level Equality Federation organizations have very few or no trans* people on their board of directors. The main reason is that these organizations require potential board members to be very well educated, have an impressive resume (in order to make the organization look better, I guess) and most importantly, they require board members to make generous personal donations to the organization to obtain their board seat. In other words, buy their way on to the board. Since trans folk, especially full time transsexuals are the most oppressed where it comes to employment opportunities, trans folk, especially trans women of color will never be represented on any organization’s board of directors.

We have seen this inequality reflected in actions by these organizations:
– HRCs and others who attempted to negotiate out gender identity in order to pass a sexual orientation only non-inclusive federal ENDA.
– Equality Maryland’s lack of action and overall submission to Del. Pena-Melnyk’s removal of public accommodations from Maryland’s 2011 GENDA bill so she could advance a disability bill that involved public accommodations.
– The lack of education of the Connecticut’s Democratic legislators and the use of inappropriate words like “transvestite” demonstrating a lack of educated coaching by the Equality Federation organization in CT. Fortunately, the GENDA bill passed.
– The lack of ambition by New York’s organizations who were too distracted by the passing of marriage equality to even think about pushing GENDA.
– GLAAD’s lack of response to an advertising campaign by the NoTakeover campaign backed by several non-GLBT centric non-profits and funded by Sprint that featured a transphobic image. Of course, we found out later why they did not do anything. A large donation by AT&T to GLAAD, GLAAD filing comments with the FCC and the resulting resignation.

As a result of this year’s debacle in Maryland, a new organization, Gender Rights Maryland was formed. It sounds like they are going to try GENDA and marriage equality in the same legislative session.. I really hope that Equality MD and GRMD divide and conquer on this one.

However, I feel that before any state gets marriage equality, we need to make sure that we first have a bedrock of civil rights for the gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender & transsexual/intersex communities. We can harp about how the GLBT organizations threw the trans community under the bus “ten years ago”, but let’s first right the wrong and then we can move forward with marriage equality.

In the case of Maryland, the state already recognizes out of state marriages and the District of Columbia already has legal marriage. I don’t feel there is a need to rush it in Maryland. Let’s get the basic rights down first, then we can worry about marriage equality.

As a trans woman myself who lives in Maryland and who will be getting married next year, I am willing to go to DC or NY. I would rather make that trip to DC once and be able to be protected in employment and public accommodations every day that I am in Maryland.

We need marriage equality in Maryland but with the situation as it is right now, I don’t see the huge rush. We have bigger fish to fry.. basic civil rights.

=m

Aug 12, 2011 at 11:49 am · @Reply ·

Abirdwillingtobeitself

@Michi Eyre: “I can remind you that if it wasn’t for the trans folk (both transsexual and transgender), there would have been no Stonewall.”

I’ve never heard this claim before, and I haven’t seen any evidence for it.

Aug 12, 2011 at 12:05 pm · @Reply ·

Ted B. (Charging Rhino)

1. Most drag queens are NOT transgender.
2. Trans-sexuality as we know the term now basically didn’t existing in 1967.
3. Conflating TS and TV with Gay, Lesbian (and maybe Bi) makes as much sense as claiming common ground between left-handed persons and ethnic-Albanians. There isn’t much of an intersection for common-ground interests. They are entirely different issues.

Aug 12, 2011 at 12:29 pm · @Reply ·

Riker

@Abirdwillingtobeitself: Eyewitness reports indicate the the first spark of violence at Stonewall was a drag queen throwing her shoe at a cop. As the trans community LOVES to point out, drag queens are primarily cisgendered gay men, so Michi’s statement is patently false.

The Ts want to distance themselves from drag queens, except when it benefits them. Hypocritical, much?

Aug 12, 2011 at 12:29 pm · @Reply ·

Jem

Saying there is no link between T and and LGB is incredibly ignorant. Both groups constantly struggle with the fact that both lack heteronormativity in a heteronormative-serving world.

Also, I noticed some comments saying that T people were born in the wrong bodies. That’s only partially true. A lot of T’s are perfectly comfortable with their bodies. ‘Being in the wrong body’ is an experience only part of the community deals with. I, for one, would feel self-conscious about my sex whether I was born male or female. lol

I am a lesbian. I had a sex change operation nearly 40 years ago. I was ostracized by by my man pleaser straight transsexual sisters who loved their heterosexual privilege. I was told by the heterosexual transgender people I had made a mistake because if I had stayed male and only lived as a woman I could have kept my heterosexual privilege.

I am not part of the transgender community. I am part of the lesbian community. Marriage equality? We have been fighting for that one since about 1970 when I went to a rally in Sacramento.

The Transgender community only started leeching on to the Gay and Lesbian Communities in the 1990s. They have done very freaking little in support of Gay and Lesbian people but have only demanded unconditional support on our part.

Now Autumn Sandeen over at Pam’s House Blend is suggesting that the Transgender Community leech onto women’s attempts to pass a revived Equal Rights Amendment.

Where was this Transgender Community during any political battle or other crisis faced by gay or lesbian people?

Perhaps if they had shown any support for the movements of anyone outside their own community then gay and lesbian people would be more willing to drop something they have been working towards for the last 40 years and focus on the specific needs of the transgender community.

But the only reason the transgender community, which is shot through and through with both homophobia and misogyny is here is for what they can get not for what they have to offer.

Needless to say I have been trashed by them for refusing to be claimed by their community.

Transsexualism is something I had an operation to correct. I don’t need a “T” to feel included, an “L” will do just fine, thank you very much.

Aug 12, 2011 at 1:09 pm · @Reply ·

Who asked?

Who asked for the “T” to be added? Frankly, I think the whole alphabet soup needs to be jettisoned. Fight your own damn battles. I’m not sure I want those fence-sitting bi’s around either. I don’t trust them, shifty eyes.

Aug 12, 2011 at 1:12 pm · @Reply ·

Fodolodo

I’m curious how many of you actually read the article. It doesn’t condemn gay people for caring about marriage equality. It doesn’t blame gay people specifically for the lack of progress on trans rights: it recognizes, correctly, that the basic difference is in the level of social understanding people have of gay people versus that they have of trans people. What the article says–and here the article is absolutely right–is that, in the context of the marriage equality struggle and all the rhetoric about how this is the great civil rights struggle of the moment, we’ve forgotten about another urgent civil rights issue: violence and discrimination against trans people. And when we work politically to provide for the rights and needs of both LGB and trans people, if we want to succeed, unity will work better than division.

Aug 12, 2011 at 1:19 pm · @Reply ·

Riker

@Suzan: Amen, sister! The myth of the GLBTQQAIOMGWTFBBQ community is damaging to us. I love my trans brothers and sisters, but we all need to shift our thinking into being two allied communities that have their own issues to worry about, but fight together when our interests intersect.

I’m not about to give up my right to get married so that transpeople can use public bathrooms. Me not being able to marry hurts me, both emotionally and financially. Transpeople can just use their private bathrooms, or the public one of whichever gender they appear to be. With the large numbers of ugly men and women out there, I don’t think many people would hassle a woman with a strong jawline using the ladies room, assuming they are there to just do their business and go back to what they were doing.

I understand why we are LGBT, and have no problem with that whatsoever. Being both a genderqueer female bodied human and gay, I wouldn’t. However, there is just as much ignorance amongst LGB people relating to gender issues as there is with straight people. It’s simply minus the violence. Go to any gay site, and you see simple miseducation and ignorance regarding the trans experience. Hell, some don’t even know what being trans is. I know for myself, I caught much heat from gays for being genderqueer. I can only imagine what it is like to be trans.

The thing is, we have to realize that the trans experience, while correlated, is not the same as the gay ones. The legal issues are different. The rights being asked for are different. The reasons behind people not wanting to give said rights are different. The list is endless, and, until we educate the LGB community on trans people and trans issues, the LGB will continue to leave the T behind.

Aug 12, 2011 at 1:22 pm · @Reply ·

Fodolodo

@Riker: The WHOLE ISSUE with bathrooms is that trans people are often denied access to the ones that accord with their gender expression. Sometimes they are also denied access to the ones that accord with their birth sex. And sometimes, when trans people use a bathroom that accords with their gender expression, they aren’t just left alone: they’re violently attacked.

2. Trans-sexuality as we know the term now basically didn’t existing in 1967.

Actually the term was coined in the late 1940s. There were numerous people who had had sex change operations by 1969 when I came out. When I started treatment for transsexuality prior to Stonewall there was already a fully functional transsexual organization in San Francisco, funded by the War on Poverty as well as a city funded clinic where we were able to get hormones.

The war between transsexual and transgender people was going on in 1969 just as it is today.

The heterosexual cross dressing community which spawned the modern “Transgender Community” was rabidly homophobic back then and would have excluded any and all queens who were involved in any way with Stonewall.

Just as they would have excluded any of the transsexuals or queens that were involved in our riot in the Tenderloin of SF in 1966, the Compton’s Cafeteria riot that gave birth to our transsexual self help group/political organization.

BTW our organization was run by and for transsexuals not for queens who gravitated towards forming the Imperial Court System, which has supported the gay and lesbian community.

Talk about concern trolling, we’ll deal with our “internal mutinies” within our own community on our own, thank you very much.

@ Suzan, if you want to speak about how long ago you transitioned, speaking as a trans woman under just 30, the whole “transgender vs. transsexual/HBS” politics are old and tired. It seems like only people over 40 care about that stuff and quite frankly it sucks all of the air out of room to detrement of real organizing . Both you, Autumn and a whole lot of other irresponsible people of an older generation of activists are the key enablers of these identity wars.

And for what cause?

As far as I know these pretty politics of ago and self-importance has never gotten one trans person access to affordable health care, calling someone WBT or transgender (or whatever people want to identify as) has never gotten them access to a homeless shelter or job protections. People discriminate against me because I’m not cissexual and because I’m queer, know amount of identity politics kung-fu is going to change that.

You claim that you’re not trans*, mainly identify as a lesbian (and working class) and continuously harp claims of how trans community is somehow the ruin of everything of everything LBG yet you seem very preoccupied with trans politics to the point where it takes up to 40% of content of your blog.

Younger trans people don’t give a shit about all of these identity politics that people were arguing about 25 years ago and are still arguing over to no productive end. I have no problem with my cis LGBT friends, for me being gay and trans is no contradiction until people who are over 40 and who are solely an internet presence in their activism start stirring the pot over 30 year-old gripes.

It’s at that point where I just want to pull my hair out and to say the hell with it all because people are so concerned with form of arguments, not the hard work of organizing and actually improving the lives of people, cis, trans, queer or straight.

““I can remind you that if it wasn’t for the trans folk (both transsexual and transgender), there would have been no Stonewall.”

I’ve never heard this claim before, and I haven’t seen any evidence for it.”

@missanthrope: I don’t need the information, and it doesn’t really interest me. What does interest me is that Michi mentioned transgender people in an attempt to make transsexuals seem relevant for Stonewall. You might as well say that humans caused Stonewall. Yay for the human race!

@missanthrope: Um, your internal mutinies don’t just affect you, they affect the whole LGBT community, since we are tied together.

For instance, it is really difficult to get the government, foundations, and other data collection groups to grab data on gender identity, when the trans community can not even, by itself, decide on what its on definition of gender identity / transgender is.

When are people gonna realize that transexuals are a PART of our community.I look at them like I do the rest of the LGBT community… like family.I have transexual transgender and even transvestite friends and love them dearly. Some probably feel like they would be better off straight then to feel persecuted to be bullied and so many other things.The same way half of us have probably felt in our lives at some point.I even felt that way growing up even though I had not come to grips with being gay at that time. The comments you have made though are very ignorant.Yes we are fighting for OUR rights key word OUR and that our includes everyone in this community who is bi transgender lesbian and gay.It doesnt say LGBT for nothing .

People like you total hypocrites by the way how disgusting is it to claim that its fucked up to be transgender or transexual when you are not them.You have no idea what they live with go through you know nothing about them.Even that tranny ass comment you made is a comment that is meant to SEPERATE them from us as if to say they are worthless and we are worthy because we are gay.Everyone in this community is WORTHY and deserves the same rights we are not just fighting for gay rights to begin this these are HUMAN rights civil rights at that.Transgenders are human beings just like we are .

This us against them mentality in this community is pure hypocrisy we ALL know how it feels to be persecuted judged and discriminated against.Yet people in this same community persecute judge and discriminate against people from their own community.There is something severely wrong with that picture. Don’t discriminate and judge others when you yourself KNOW how it feels to be discriminated against and judged also.Otherwise you look like a complete and utter hypocrite period.

Actually Zagria my life partner has to remind me to put up trans-stuff now and then. I run more left wing and eco material than trans. I run more material relating to women’s reproductive rights than trans.

The whole “Stonewall wouldn’t have happened without transsexual/transgender people” myth is BS.

The area around Stonewall was famous as being a gay male cruising area. In 1967 I went there and picked up a man to lose my virginity. That was some 18 months before I came out.

The initial riot was mostly as in 99% young gay men. Among the arrested was folk singer Dave Van Ronk.

The riot took place over three nights. Many who claim to have been there arrived after the initial spark. Dave Carter and Martin Dubermann have excellent and accurate books regarding the riot.

Wow so many powerful and beautiful statements made.Really loving the compassion here.

Aug 12, 2011 at 1:59 pm · @Reply ·

Fitz

I don’t find it useful to stratify. We just aren’t that big, folks.
And in politics and economics, size really does matter. We kind find thousands of ways to divide ourselves economically, socially, physically, age, race, etc. YAWN.

Some people hate me because of how I take my sex, and who I have chosen
to build a life with. That’s enough of a common ground for me.
We can choose to go our own ways socially, but banding together around
common causes is practical.

That being said, the patronizing and dismissive nature of her comments about Niagra Falls and wedding bells is ignorant and insulting. This was never a struggle for ceremonies, it’s a struggle for equal rights and equal economics. She’s a baby on the pitty potty and I don’t respond well to that.

Aug 12, 2011 at 2:17 pm · @Reply ·

Samuel

A lot of us trans folk have been out there fighting for marriage equality. I consider myself a part of the big LGBT community, and a lot of us are more than willing to fight for the majority of the community. The people who really get attention are the ones who are ostracizing us from the rest of the community, but we have been here the entire time. Most of you just don;t see us because we are such a small portion. There are so few of us that it is difficult to be noticed by the crowd.

I think of it this way: I’ve been helping the older sibling all this time, and all I want is to be as big and strong as them someday, but I need help. We’re too small to do this on our own sometimes.

Then why the hell are you posting if you’re not interested in discussion or or opened your mind to anything than what you already think?

@· pithyscreenname:

Most NGOs, government organizations, and data collection groups aren’t usually interested in trans statistics period because of invisibility. But when they do get interested they do collect statistics and their seems to be little confusion over identity when they do it has seemed to be no problem. Can you name any specific case where this has been a significant problem? Have yo ever participated in any data collection processes on trans people?

And find it rather disingenuous on the part of cis gay activists telling trans people to “get it together” as if the lesbian and gay community has never had any strife. How about the Gay Liberation Front v. Mettachine fights, the “Lesbian Sex Wars” which was basically a proxy fight over politicized lesbian identity, how fights over bisexual inclusion, Queer Nation vs. HRC-style orgs? A lot of those fights were over basic questions of identity (especially gays v. bisexuals) and if an identities are going to politicized or not, especially the current fights between Radical Queers and Suburban Gays.

Yes, we have our squabbles but cis GLB people have also and they have at times affected trans people also.

@Suzan:

I was wrong about the ratio of trans content on your blog, but on your front page right I counted ten percent ratio, still that is a lot of posting on trans issues coming from someone who has claimed to have little to no interest in trans issues. And that’s not even mentioning commenting on other blogs, as I’ve seen you do. I just find it hard to take it credibly when some claims to have no interest in trans politics, but yet who inserts herself in to trans politics regularly. What’s up with that?

And don’t play the “your identity threatens my identity” game vis-a-vis WBT vs. transgender identity, I find that argument to say more about whomever is writing it than about anyone else. I just find that silly.

I never made that claim, another poster here did. A whole bunch of people of different identities were at Stonewall and claiming “ownership” of event is really a pretty pissing contest between a number of groups. No matter who started it, or who primarily did what, the result was still the same. But I do challenge people who would say that no trans* people were there or that they were just bystanders.

You failed to address any of my points about the state of trans/lgbt activism nor did you really answer any of my charges that you and other people are contributing to a caustic atmosphere that sucks the energy of any of real life organizing through endless flamewars revolving around identity and questions of “I’m more real than you” arguments. Nor have you answered the question of any tangible benefits these ridiculous fights have brought anyone, whether trans or not.

Aug 12, 2011 at 2:35 pm · @Reply ·

Larry

Post-op transsexuals actually CAN get married in certain places where it is still illegal for gays to marry. I sympathize with the transgender community, as they are victims of the bigoted and homophobic heterosexual community just as we are. However, on the whole, trans people are not homosexual. It is those bigots who lump trans in with gay/lesbian/bi people. Trans are “straight” people who are targetted by bigots because they do not easily conform to the traits of their sex of heart.

One of the most pervasive stereotypes of gay men has been that they are women in men’s bodies and/or who wear women’s clothing. I believe that this is another example of the bigots defining who gays are. Bigots create these stereotype, and gays adopt the mannerisms for lack of better role models, or out of a mistaken sense of rebellion. Bigots target all sorts of noncomformist people, but I do not believe in letting the bigots define who we are and how we rank. Just as other minorities, like blacks, object to being compared with gays, as a masculine man, I object to being compared with people with nonconforming gender, kinks, or pedophiles.

In recent years, the stereotype of the effeminate gay man has fallen in decline. Gay camp and drag are less of a lifestyle, and more of an infrequent comedy act. It’s a relic of the Old School. There has been a sunrise in gay culture, where non-stereotypical men no longer assume they are the minority of the minority. Gay men no longer have to conform to some absurd caricature before they are permitted to publicly say that they are “being themselves”. Better role models are all around us now. Many courageous men and women in the military, government, and industry have come out publicly. These folks came out by choice or honor, as they were not forced out by unavoidable mannerisms. This will do much to balance out the perception that gays are somehow gender-confused.

I would certainly not seek to excise the trans movement from the gay/lesbian/bi movement. We do have a common cause in fighting oppression. However, as we move forward, it should be clear that it is an ignorant mistake to blur our identities together in the manner of our oppressors. Ignorance is behind the rejection of gay/lesbian/bi folks by the black community. Even the gay/lesbian community itself still pushes a schism with bisexuals, so we must be honest with ourselves if we’re going to make meaningful progress.

Aug 12, 2011 at 2:42 pm · @Reply ·

Sarah

The same study she quotes about trans discrimination shows that roughly 70% of the trans community identifies as gay or bi or pan or queer and NOT straight. Marriage equality was OUR fight too.

And in Canada where we won marriage equality 6 years ago, the fight HAS turned to trans rights – which are now protected in Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba and BC. All the bitching does is divide the community and make trans folk like me who are gay feel invisible and caught between the two sides.

I think it’s bloody brilliant that NYC passed marriage equality and people have every right to celebrate it.

Aug 12, 2011 at 2:47 pm · @Reply ·

Michael

@Shannon1981:
“The thing is, we have to realize that the trans experience, while correlated, is not the same as the gay ones. The legal issues are different. The rights being asked for are different. The reasons behind people not wanting to give said rights are different. The list is endless, ”

Yes, endless reasons why the trans community doesn’t belong in the gay and lesbian community. We can be friends and allies, but we are not part of the same movement. The fact is that without latching onto the end of the gay and lesbian community, the trans community would have nearly NO power or voice. The numbers are so much small and so is the money. Transgendered people need gay and lesbian people, not vice-versa.

This DOES NOT correlate to having ill will to trans people or not believing trans people don’t deserve their rights. We have our own agenda and I don’t appreciate it being hijacked and even set back by trans people (EDNA being the prime example of this.)

“I was wrong about the ratio of trans content on your blog, but on your front page right I counted ten percent ratio, still that is a lot of posting on trans issues coming from someone who has claimed to have little to no interest in trans issues. And that’s not even mentioning commenting on other blogs, as I’ve seen you do. I just find it hard to take it credibly when some claims to have no interest in trans politics, but yet who inserts herself in to trans politics regularly. What’s up with that?”

Gee isn’t it amazing a blog titled “Women Born transsexual” has at any one time some 10 to 20 percent transsexual oriented content.

Who wudda thunk it?

As for your TG Borg/Inc originated admonishment…

Why is it that when ever I talk with you folks I feel as though I am dealing with a cult member who has a list of memorized talking points and an umbilical cord to Virginia Prince?

I had my SRS before “Transgender” came into usage. I resent being colonized by the transgender cult.

One of my friends is transgendered. She is a pre-op MTF. After having her name changed and taking some hormones, she has a driver’s license under the name “Brooke” and is legally marrying her boyfriend next month. So, clearly the fight for them only affects GAY transgendered persons. So, that wraps into the gay marriage fight anyway.

On another sidenote, I remember asking her “so, now you’re basically straight, huh?” Her response “yep, so fuck y’all!” Sure, it was said somewhat tongue in cheek, but I could tell there was a hint of truth behind it.

Aug 12, 2011 at 3:09 pm · @Reply ·

Larry

@Sarah: You’re always welcome to ‘march’ with me, and I’d be honored to be invited to ‘march’ with you, but the trans movement, at heart, isn’t about achieving equality and social acceptance for those who love and have sex with partners of the same sex. It’s about achieving equality and social acceptance for nonconformity between one’s identity and their birth sex [which is something that the ignorant think gays are about]. I’d agree that you deserve this equality and social acceptance. But i’d agree that we are part of the same family, only in the same sense as I would accept adopted or fostered children. But we’re pushed together by outside forces, not by some inner connection. Other than that, we merely suffer at the hands of the same bigots.

I’m a a gay man. Not a GLBTQIABBQWTFBIEBEROMG gender warrior. I understand exactly what I have in common with lesbians and bisexuals. But as far as I’m concerned, trannies are just leeches, forcibly attaching themselves to the gay rights movement because they know they’d be absolutely fucked without us. We’re expected to give them our undying support at all times, but the second a gay rights bill passes without including them, do they show us the same support? Fuck no. They start kicking, screaming, crying, and name-calling. Some “community.”

I asked you about some pointed questions about a caustic culture of flamewars that impedes activism, which I feel you have personally contributed through your own public statements. These aren’t hard questions to answer and as a thoughful person as you come across as on your blog, I’m disappointed that you’ve resorted to attacking my own intelligence, my free will to think freely and dodging my questions through asking a senseless rhetorical question.

Can you address any of my points without ad hominen attacks about me being a “cult member”, or are defensive accusations about my character the only argument you have?

I don’t care when you had SRS and I don’t care about what you think is or is not a cult*, I care about logical and reasoned arguments.

It’s sad, I think you’re a person with a lot to give to the world, yet you keep harping on old gripes. Virginia Prince? Please hon, she was a bitter old homophobe who died three years ago, not really someone I think of often. Please leave your strawman arguments and 25 old gripes at the door when discussing these matters with me. I’m here to talk about the future, not about people who died years ago and whatever personal slight you may have against them.

*I identify as a woman and a trans woman. I do not identify as transgender. Just FYI before you pre-judge anything about me. But if you need to have your own narrative as a security blanket against reality, you are welcome to it.

*sighs* Maybe some of them do that but the point is its not fair to make a blanket statement about all of them that way.Not to mention if they do do any of those things there has to be a reason for it maybe they’ve as I said before already been discriminated by this community and feel like outsiders.Once again im sure half of us felt like outsiders at some point in our lives.My point was that we need to come together as a community stop this crap of claiming: i am not gay i dont identify as gay i dont like trannies dont want them to be a part of this community i hate fem guys etc etc etc…All this discriminating in this community is no different then what the bigots do to us on a daily basis in this world.Embrace who you are love who you are if you’re gay you are gay if you are transexual or transgender or transvestite embrace it and love that part of yourself.

We have to remember that we dont know the whole story theres a reason some trans individuals may not like us or want to be a part of this community.There is ALWAYS a reason for everything.I hope that one day we can ALL be treated equally in this country not just us gay americans not just lesbians not just bisexuals not just transgenders ALL of us.Think about what a beautiful dream come true that would be.I for one hold on to that dream and hope it happens before I die.My dad died 3 weeks ago in the hospital wonderful man he served in the military worked alongside gay soldiers never had any problem with it.I only wish we and the people who hate us and are against us could have that kind of mindset and that kind of heart.

Discrimination is still discrimination doesnt matter if you are gay bi straight lesbian transgender its still discrimination.Especially when you use what a person is against them.

Aug 12, 2011 at 3:44 pm · @Reply ·

Sarah

@Larry: Don’t think you understood me very well. I was assigned male at birth. I’m a dyke. I care about marriage equality for exactly the same reasons you do. Same goes for a big chunk of the trans community. Most of us are gay or lesbian or bi as well as trans.

And I wasn’t talking about trans rights. Just your misapprehension that we are all straight post-op.

You must be a complete idiot btw.My comment was simply stating that there must be a reason why some trans individuals dont like gays or vice versa why some gays dont like them.Do keep up if you are even capable of that.

Aug 12, 2011 at 4:31 pm · @Reply ·

Larry

@Sarah: To be perfectly clear, it is NOT my position that trans should be excluded from the gay/lesbian/bi community. But it is not upon the fact, that there are glb among the trans community, that I base that partnership. It is that we are victims of the same ignorance and bigotry, and as we stand together, we are all stronger. It is our common oppressors who view us as one and the same. My same-sex attraction is not related to conflicts with my birth sex. I do not exhibit any meaningful amount of deviation from the mannerisms my culture expects of my sex. I reject the absurd niches which our oppressors impose upon us. I accept that you personally are lesbian, but that’s on a case-by-case basis. For example, there are millions of glb among blacks, but the reason I would welcome all blacks to march with glb is because we all oppose bigotry and oppression, not because they have measurable percentage of glb among them.

Aug 12, 2011 at 4:35 pm · @Reply ·

Alan

There is no LGBT community. There never was. It was created b/c trans activists realized that they could do better if they attached themselves to a larger movement and then used a combination of guilt and coercion to demand that this larger movement do their bidding. A number of “queer” academics in the 90s were all too happy to see this happen, as they did not like the fact that the gay movement was becoming more mainstream and professional. Redefining it as “LGBT” meant that “gay” would be identified with “everything that is not gender normative.”

But while trans activists and a few queer academics may have blessed this scam, none of us, the lowly gay masses, were ever consulted. No one ever asked my opinion and no vote was ever conducted. It was just forced on us.

The vast majority of us have no problem with trans people and are happy to be allies with them on specific matters. But we are not identified with them. Sexual orientation and gender identity are 2 different things and no secret deals cut in the 90s will change that. We have no obligation to prioritize issues that are of little or no concern to gay people and we have nothing to apologize for in pursuing equal rights for gay people as our top priority. We need to drop the LGBT sham and go back to being friends and allies with trans people, the same kind of relationship we enjoy with many other groups.

BTW,the whole Stonewall argument is reactionary and offensive. Stonewall was important for what it represented and what it inspired, not for the specifics of the event. The riot took place in Greenwich Village but that doesn’t mean that the gay community has some special obligation to Greenwich Village or that all residents of Greenwich Village are part of the gay movement. There were some cross-dressers at Stonewall, and many who were not. There were also mafia goons, drug addicts, closet cases, blackmailers, hustlers, hippies, racists, communists, anarchists, and police informants. Those groups don’t get a letter and a claim on our community and our movement in 2011 and neither do Ts.

I love how humble mature and decent people like you are.Total sarcasm.

Aug 12, 2011 at 4:44 pm · @Reply ·

Rachel's cunt

Let’s not even go there.

Aug 12, 2011 at 4:47 pm · @Reply ·

Alex

@Michael: Is it humble, mature, or decent to call someone a smartass? Yes or no, fucktard?

Aug 12, 2011 at 4:55 pm · @Reply ·

Larry

@Alan: I agree with you partway here. There ARE lgbt communities, but they’re opt-in. I believe that most lgbt candidates are just not “joiners”. It seems that there are so-called leaders of these communities that seem to claim to speak for everyone. I’m in favor of *advocates* who are careful to highlight that not everyone is in synch.

I don’t see any reason for hating on trans people. Even if a few outspoken trans folk say things I strongly disagree with, I’m not going to condemn all of them for it.

Amazing how arrogant and immature most of you are .Pathetic.Even more pathetic you pitiful little shit talkers act like little cyber bullies.The guy made a patronizing rude comment about what I said yes that was being a smartass anyone with half a brain can see that.So kindly fuck off already troll.I may have a good heart but im no ones doormat either tough talking internet twit.Flagged you idiots comments 2 for bullying.You’re no better then the bigots period.

Aug 12, 2011 at 6:04 pm · @Reply ·

zrocqs

@Suzan: “Transsexualism is something I had an operation to correct.” Whaaa?

You might as well say, “Youth is something I have been aging to correct.”

Honey, you iz what you iz and you iz what you wuz. I’m getting a strong whiff of Republican pretzel-logic.

Aug 12, 2011 at 6:53 pm · @Reply ·

inoits2

There is no LGBT community. We do not share race, class or geography. Hell most of us don’t even like each other.

The lesbos don’t like the gays generally and want to be in their own little cliques. Gays are some of the nastiest bitches to each other in most social situations.

Gays hate lower class gays, they hate black gays, they hate asian gays, they especially hate trans people. Why? Because we are not a community.

There is nothing that ties us together except pride marches and Gay, inc. Our so called leaders do not represent most gay people as most gays are not flag wavers.

……so how the hell do you think there is any real support for trans folks. Gay inc is the one that supports trans people because it helps fill their coffers. We would have ENDA if it wasn’t for trans. I resent the fact that we cant get ENDA unless trans are included. The LGBT is bullshit and a Gay, inc invention.

Aug 12, 2011 at 8:00 pm · @Reply ·

Sweetbrandigirl2004

Whaaaaaaaa ! What a bunch of whining ass Babies these transgender people are crying because they aren’t getting the full attention and efforts of the Gay and Lesbian communities because the rest of the community won’t buy into they’re fantasy…. So they (the Transgender) are starting to see the light and the fruition of what I’ve said all along and thats is once the marriage fight is done DOMA repealed and DADT is gone that they (the Trangenders) R On their own……..The clear and undeniable fact they lack both the money and the shear numbers to ever get any type of legislation through any part of our government is hitting home.

So since you’re not in favour of equality, why the heck should straights give gays equal rights?

Aug 12, 2011 at 8:15 pm · @Reply ·

bbg372

I do not understand transgender identities.

On the surface, it seems that if people can have a gender that is different than their biological sex, this supports the fact that gender is a social construction that is separate from biology.

However, if gender and sex are completely separate, why do some transgender people feel so strongly that sex reassignment surgery is key to their happiness and complete realization of their gender?

It’s paradoxical that even people who are transgressing a huge social norm by performing a gender that was not assigned to them at birth are still strictly adhering to social rules about their chosen gender.

How might these people identify themselves if our society had a much more flexible gender system? If people with penises could wear dresses and have it be regarded as normal, would they still identify as transgender?

As an aside, though, someone who thinks this way doesn’t belong on the board of an organization called the Gay and Lesbian Alliance against defamation. This woman has made a virtual CAREER of whining about what gay people are not doing for trans people.

Aug 12, 2011 at 9:50 pm · @Reply ·

C. Kane

“..according to a nationwide study released early this year by the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and the National Center for Transgender Equality…”

That wasn’t a nationwide study. It was an anonymous internet survey. BIG difference.
Trans is an inherently homophobic and misogynist proposition that seeks to “correct” men and women who don’t adhere to sex roles. Trans codifies sex role stereotypes. “Gender Identity” protections erase sex based legal protections for females. Gay children are being sterilized before puberty in an attempt to “cure” their supposedly aberrant “sissy” behavior. All supported and lobbied for by trans. Trans are not our allies. They are homophobia in action. We should detach the Gay movement from the Trans movement immediately as our goals are diametrically opposed.

Aug 12, 2011 at 10:38 pm · @Reply ·

Alan

@pithyscreenname: Just wanted to thank you for hitting the nail on the head. I would add that I find Gates’ estimates of the “trans” population exaggerated. But whatever the real number, it is tiny. And recently, a trans leader attending the OutGiving conference of big donors admitted that trans activists have virtually no resources. But while they are not gay, and bring neither bodies nor dollars to the table, they make endless demands of LGBs and then have the temerity to attack and deride the victories that gays achieve.

Why do we not have ENDA today? That law could have protected millions of GLB Americans at work in 31 states. The House was going to pass it. The Senate, with 59 Dems, was ready to pass it. Obama was ready to sign it. This would have been the culmination of 35 years of effort. Think about that: federal job protections is something we have been fighting for since Gerald Ford was President and That 70s Show was real life. But the opportunity was lost – all because our organizations were intimidated by trans activists and were cowed by the LGBT label into demanding that Congress pass a “trans” inclusive bill – including one that gave trans activists the right to haul businesses into federal court over their bathroom usage – or nothing at all. So Congress opted for nothing at all. Now it will be many years, and possibly decades before we have another chance and countless LGBs may lose their jobs w/o recourse during this time.

For some reason that I cannot fathom, the trans activist thug mob did not insist on an all-or-nothing approach to repealing DADT. Maybe they realized that if they cause us to lose this issue too, gays would finally wake up and rebel against LGBT. Whatever the reason, they didn’t push it and we were able to get DADT repealed, bettering the lives of some 65,000 LGBs in uniform, not to mention the many thousands who will serve in the future. Thank God the “LGBT” crowd chose to to muck it up.

Aug 12, 2011 at 11:09 pm · @Reply ·

Reality Check

The transgender commenter Zoe Brain, above, says on his blog that the idea of two men marrying makes him “throw up in his mouth a little bit”, and that “homosexuality should be discouraged”.
He is a middle aged married man with kids who came out as transgender so he could date men as a “heterosexual”. Jesus we really have nothing in common with the transgender homophobes like Zoe Brain.

I have no idea why obsessive cyberstalkers blatantly lie like this. I could understand it if it was some sick attempt to slander me with something that couldn’t easily be disproved, but when they make up stuff that’s easily fact-checked, I don’t see the point.

I’ll add it to the other stuff that’s been propagated about me – that I’m a bigamist, that I married at age 10, that I have a 12 yr old child that has “publicly disowned me”, that all my pictures are photoshopped and the national TV appearances CGI, and all the rest.

Maybe this will help. It’s not about “performing gender”. It’s about biology.

The fetal brain develops during the intrauterine period in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in extreme cases in trans-sexuality. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation.

Now as to why an anatomically cross-sexed brain (in specific areas) results in a cross-sexed gender identity, that’s another matter. We can demonstrate through animal experiments that it results in cross-sexed instinctive behaviour patterns, but how does that lead to cross-sexed “gender identity”? After all, homosexuality is a cross-sexed instinctive behaviour associated with different areas of the brain, yet Gay men are men, and Lesbian women are women – and both Gay and Straight Trans men exist, as do Lesbian and Straight Trans women.

Our best theory is the Biased-Interaction theory.

Biased-Interaction Theory of Psychosexual Development: “How Does One Know if One is Male or Female?” M.Diamond Sex Roles (2006) 55:589–600

A theory of gender development is presented that incorporates early biological factors that organize predispositions in temperament and attitudes. With activation of these factors a person interacts in society and comes to identify as male or female. The predispositions establish preferences and aversions the growing child compares with those of others. All individuals compare themselves with others deciding who they are like (same) and with whom are they different. These experiences and interpretations can then be said to determine how one comes to identify as male or female, man or woman. In retrospect, one can say the person has a gendered brain since it is the brain that structures the individual’s basic personality; first with inherent tendencies then with interactions coming from experience.

Cross-sexed emotional response, hearing, sense of smell, etc results from cross-sexed anatomy in certain parts of the brain. Androphilia or Gynephilia – attraction to males or females – results from other, different parts.

Sexual orientation is not a reliable guide to gender identity, the latter is formed before sexual orientation manifests.

Aug 13, 2011 at 3:04 am · @Reply ·

zrocqs

@bbg372: You don’t understand Transgendered identities. Do you understand why I’m lactose intolerant? I’m willing to bet that you don’t care. Try caring less about various identities. Everyone will be better off.

@Alan: You said, “…trans activists have virtually no resources…and bring neither bodies nor dollars to the table….” And yet they’ve been able to bully us “LGBs”. Exactly how has this “tiny” (your word), resourceless, poverty-stricken group (your definition) been able to bully anyone? You, Alan, have a persecution complex. Instead of focusing on groups that actually mean to do you harm, you focus on a group that, by your own definition, is powerless. Their less-influential circumstances gives you a sense of superiority. You’re a sad person.

My confusion is with regard to the expression of transgender identities.

If the set of standards for what is considered appropriate for a member of a particular sex is determined by society, and the standards allowed for a greater variance of expression, would transgender identities exist?

If it was socially acceptable for one who is male to appear and behave in a manner that is consistent with the current societal view of the role of “woman,” would one who currently identifies as a trans-woman for example, still identify as a woman, or would she identify as a man?

Yes, I understand lactose intolerance; and no, I do not care if a particular individual is lactose intolerant.

The difference is that I am not being expected to support the issues of the lactose intolerant even though I do not share them, nor am I being met with hostility for simply trying to understand lactose intolerance.

By your reasoning, if transgender people “[Tried] caring less about various identities,” and accepted the gender that corresponds to their sex, then “Everyone [would] be better off.”

“If the set of standards for what is considered appropriate for a member of a particular sex is determined by society, and the standards allowed for a greater variance of expression, would transgender identities exist?”

Short Answer:

Yes.

They do in Samoa, Tahiti, Thailand, amongst the Zuni and Lakota, in Albania etc etc, all of whom have very different definitions of what is appropriate for the sexes (usually two, not always). See Fa’fahine, wahu-wahine, sistagirls, katooey, berdaches, sworn virgins etc.

Parts of the brain contain a “Body map” which specifies appropriate number of arms, legs, etc. When there are lesions here, victims feel as uncomfortable at having (say) a left leg, as you would having a left leg growing out of your right armpit. Similarly, many amputees have “phantom limb syndrome”, where they feel distress well beyond the inconvenience of losing a limb, and feel as though the limb must still be there. Body map and body don’t align.

Genital configuration is also part of the body map. If someone (no matter what sex they may have been assigned, what their sexual preference is, or even what gender they identify as) has a feminised body map in this area, they will feel uncomfortable having male genitalia, and comfortable having female. Just as men feel more comfortable not having had their balls cut off.

If one part of the brain follows a female stereotype, other parts tend to as well. Individuals vary of course, and I doubt there’s *anybody* who has a wholly stereotypical female or wholly stereotypical male pattern in every single part of their brain. But in general, women are attracted to men, and like having a female body.

I’ve tried to use “typical”, “usual” etc as “normal” implies an opposite of “abnormal”, and there’s nothing abnormal about homosexuality, it’s just not an orientation that most people have. It’s one of the more common “unusualities” if you like, as is left-handedness, also a product of neuro-anatomy.

I simplify. There are various degrees of bisexuality as well, sexual orientation isn’t a strict binary.

OK, what this means – there are some women, born looking male, who are as uncomfortable having male genitalia as gay men would be if they were castrated. Hormones and surgery fixes that. This has nothing to do with “performance of gender”.

Only a little of what we call “gendered behaviour” is biologically based. Most is purely a social construct. But some is not. This is most obviously shown in the play patterns of children, and the sex-atypical play patterns of Intersex women with Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia. 90% of 46XX people with CAH identify as female, yet they pretty much all show “male typical” play patterns when young due to partly “masculinised” neuro-anatomy.

Just remember that most “Gendered Behaviour” has zero biological basis. Those who say it’s entirely a social construct are incorrect – but far closer to the truth than those who say that “men are men, women are women, and stepping outside God’s Holy ordnance is un-natural and sinful.”

Anyway, some Trans women don’t have a strongly feminised body map. They’d rather live with male genitalia than have risky surgery to give them something they may not like anyway. There are also non-Trans men who desire “manginas” for that matter, in those cases, only the body map is feminised, in all other respects (including gender identity) they’re typically male.

“Transgender” is an umbrella term, comprising everyone from the “classical transsexual” – straight male in female body like Chaz Bono (or the reverse), through to various kinds of gender nonconformity – most of which have no biological basis, they’re more political statements by people whose brains are neither strongly masculinised nor feminised. Some people even include Intersex in the TG umbrella – most IS people hate that. Quite a few TS people hate being labelled TG too, they are affirming rather than destroying the gender binary model, simply because they fit the gender binary well.

Your question is the same as this one:

“If the set of standards for what is considered appropriate for a member of a particular sex is determined by society, and the standards forbade anything other than a strictly heterosexual orientation, would Gays or Lesbians exist?”

And please read in its entiretyConfessions of a Homophobe. My views have evolved a little since then. Having my sex re-diagnosed from “undervirilised male” to “severely androgenised female” two years after that article was written (it dates from 2003) expanded my horizons, shall we say.

Some bits haven’t changed though, for example:

Enough. More than Enough. Let’s show some common decency and humanity and make the law non-discriminatory when it comes to marriage. There’s plenty more discrimination in other areas, far too much of it in fact. As for Churches – let them follow their own dogma, or conscience, or both. This isn’t a religious question, it’s a matter of law, justice, and common humanity.

Of course it reeks of cis-sexual privilege, but as I said, my views have evolved over the last 8 years. How many other people were publicly in favour of marriage equality in 2003? I may be ashamed of the tone, but not that part of the content. Rather proud that I put that on the record, in fact, despite my ugly little prejudice and arrogance at the time. As if I had any right to sit in judgement to either affirm or deny others’ basic human rights.

I theorise that most of the personal animus expressed against me is due to my unusual biology. By existing, I contradict many cherished religious or ideological notions about the strict biological binary of sex. As do these people. That’s 5-alpha-reductase-2 (5ARD) syndrome. That and the similar 17-beta-hydroxysteroid-dehydrogenase-3 deficiency (17BHDD) syndrome can cause apparent “natural sex changes” from F to M. 3-beta-hydroxysteroid-dehydrogenase deficiency (3BHDD) can cause a change in either direction, and that’s my tentative diagnosis.

Just google “Fake Intersex” and Zoe Brain’s name comes to the top of the list.

Aug 13, 2011 at 12:21 pm · @Reply ·

Jill

@Geraldo: Yeah, and when you Google “Fake Intersex” the first entry comes from “GenderTrender”, one of the most virulently anti-trans blogs, where it is common to equate trans women with pedophiles.

This trans woman celebrated passage of marriage equality in NY State.

The disappointment in the T community was that while a marriage equality bill passed in NY State, there was an Employment Non-Discrimination bill that failed to be passed out of committee. That diminished our happiness slightly from what it would have been if both passed.

Nobody chose to get thrown into the alphabet soup. But we share important issues. If we as trans people are in a relationship, it is a gay relationship either before or after transition, but in any event, we are considered gay by the haters. Trans people who are separatists and want nothing to do with the LGBT community are entitled to their own affiliations, but they are foolish. They are as pathetic in trying to fit a gender box as were the gay marchers in the mid-60s in their suits and ties or dresses, trying to be as “respectable” as possible. The haters don’t care – they would get us all.

I am very happy to have LGB allies, and straight allies. Some allies may not get trans issues. Many are quite willing to get up to speed. I am trying to get up to speed myself on LGB issues and history.

Aug 13, 2011 at 1:59 pm · @Reply ·

theo1145

I’m transgender, a trans-man. I’m also GAY. I care a lot about the gay community. But it’s obvious many of you don’t welcome me. Honestly, reading the comments on this article make me want to kill myself.

Aug 13, 2011 at 2:04 pm · @Reply ·

ewe

There is nothing stopping transgendered people from accessing these new marriage rights.

Aug 13, 2011 at 2:12 pm · @Reply ·

Mike in Asheville

@justsayin’: Yes, you can be a petty small minded catty twit who expects compassion, understanding, acceptance and civil rights from from the general public/community, while, at the same time, denying compassion, understanding, acceptance and civil rights for the transgendered.

We, g+l, expect the recognition that our lives and desires are as valid as any straight person’s yet you ridicule the transgendered and deny the validity of their right to pursue their happiness.

Yeah, hypocrisy is much more fucked-up than being transgendered.

Aug 13, 2011 at 2:17 pm · @Reply ·

Laughriotgirl

Few things: This article was writting within a specific context. NYS legislative session 2011 and it’s tie to 2002. In 2002 ESPA made a deal with the Legislature to drop trans people from job protections and then lobbied to keep it out when the bill’s author tried to amend trans back in. Now this year, marriage and the catch-up bill both passed the assembly with similar numbers and had very closely the same numbers of confirmed Senate votes.

Once the bills went to the Senate they were both sent to a committee chaired by someone who would never let either out. The largest, best funded and coordinated gay campaign in history marshaled to pressure the Senate to vote… on marriage only. The trans job protection bill got literally no mention after it passed the Assembly – not even a request for people to mention it when they were calling for marriage… like it never happened.

THAT is the bitter pill that trans people have to swallow. We are happy marriage passed. It can benefit us (even though the larger marriage movement has been threatening our legal relationships – something trans folks generally aren’t talking about) BUT basic protections we were secretly shut out of 10 years ago didn’t merit ANY push at all from the best campaign ever done by the LGBT movement.

Aug 13, 2011 at 4:18 pm · @Reply ·

Laughriotgirl

The other… claiming that the trans movement attached itself to the gay movement is silly. Since trans-specific legislation was happening through legislatures (not courts) since the mid to late 1950’s and trans people have secured the basic level of recognition and protections in all but 3 states even being a tiny minority with access to scant resources.

The tie between LGB and T can be drawn with G/L academics who needed to prove that same-sex attraction had historical and cross-cultural prescient. Part of their need to prove that gays were “in all places in all times” caused them to count many people who we would more closely classify as “trans” (and many more as Bi). Since the L/G Academics started calling anyone with any sort of variant gender or cross-sex experience “gay” a generation of activists cut their teeth on appropriated identities and lives. Because many (most) trans people are either moving into or out of a GLB orientation it seemed to fit for a short while.

Then our association with the LGB began to make trans-specific legislation impossible. Coupled with the frequency that many state-level laws get passed specifically and intentionally include trans protections so that they can be used as concessions to pass gay-only laws. One can hardly hold a single year when ENDA wouldn’t have been signed by the sitting President as evidence that trans-inclusion hold back LGB progress. Our murders and unemployment statistics have helped pass laws that don’t cover us, our history has been used as a prop, and our lives have been used as useful sacrifices for those who never intended to “come back later”

I hope not. Suicide is a solution (no counting for taste) to one’s problems. You really can’t go by this, however. Including my frankly tasteless and inexcusable comment (I will, however, not apologize for making it because, well, I’m rather of a douche, and enjoy a laugh), you can’t predicate a judgment of almost total transphobia of the gay community on what the trash here have said (yes, including me). Some gays and lesbians are passionately transphobic, and some are racist in equal proportion. No better or worse than the general population. Doesn’t make it easier, but queerty comment sections aren’t a bellwether of anything but queerty comment sections. They can be fun, though. The trick is to take nothing personally (and honestly, how can one if one thinks about it rationally), and that goes for any blog and comment section or blog (no offense to anyone intended, kinda/sorta). It’s all a lot of rubbish in the final analysis.

Aug 13, 2011 at 8:23 pm · @Reply ·

ewe

@theo1145: If you want to kill yourself over these few comments then you definitely need to seek some professional help and i mean that sincerely. You are either being overly dramatic or on the brink of fragility. Either way, snap the fuck out of it. Have you never heard that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem?

Hear hear. Well said. Stick in there, kiddo. If for nothing less than a vague curiosity of what happens next.

Aug 13, 2011 at 9:18 pm · @Reply ·

BenFrankly

The comments to this piece give the author the answer to his question. Many in the gay community do not feel T’s should be included in GLB. They just don’t relate. Unity is important to be sure but what the GLBT community needs to unite against are social conservatives who stand a good chance of retaking the white house and not only destroying gay marriage but gay civil rights.

Aug 13, 2011 at 11:14 pm · @Reply ·

darkskin bttms R survivors

@theo1145: Naw man, don’t do that. Most of the “kids” here are hot shitty messes, inside and out, so don’t let the words worry you. The LGBT community, what ever the hell that is, don’t accept many, Im a gay minority and they don’t accept us either so don’t feel bad…

Aug 14, 2011 at 12:31 am · @Reply ·

Sigmund

@theo1145- The internet makes you want to kill yourself? Get psychiatric help immediately. And if you tossed off that comment in hopes that emotional blackmail would encourage our coerced acquiescence to your gender delusions then sorry dear, you’re SOL.

Aug 14, 2011 at 2:48 am · @Reply ·

zrocqs

@bbg372: Otay. Let me try again… more direct this time. I mentioned various identities. Various as in multiple and different. A Trans person, “Suzan” will have an identity different from yours. Suzan will also have a different identity than another Trans person; let’s call her “Annie”. Suzan no longer identifies as Trans. She now just sees herself as a Lesbian, and refuses to involve herself with any facet of the Trans community. Suzan’s bitter. Annie remembers her struggle and wants to mitigate the turmoil and suffering experienced by others in various types and stages of transition. Annie’s caring and helpful. Different identities, see?

And, BTW, by not understanding the existance of various identities, you are unable to reinterpret my reasoning. Or at least, you failed miserably.

Aug 14, 2011 at 3:26 am · @Reply ·

kahlil

i’ve been reading these comments & i just can’t keep my big mouth shut another minute. i’m a 63 yr old transman who has always been, still is & always will be attracted to males. as such, i’ve survived shit some of you may not be able to imagine. i’m here, i’m queer, get used to it! i’m also fully capable of punching out the lights of anybody who is dumb enough to call me a tranny-fag.
with that out of the way, what’s with some of u gay cismen & ciswomen who have as little compassion for us transmen & transwomen, gay or not, as most straight people still have for you? are you firm believers in passing along the hate & derision to the lowest peeps on the totem pole? by the way, the medical/psychiatric establishment still defines us transpeople as mentally ill, just like they did homosexual people until sometime during the late 1970’s. how quickly we forget, eh? so you’re not defined as crazy anymore, now it’s your turn to point the finger at us??? yeah, well, i keep forgetting that we’re all only human. and we’re all born the way we are, none of us chooses to be or become whatever we happen to be in the lgbt spectrum.
to those gay folks who wish us trans folks well & remember what it’s like to be on the bottom (no pun intended) & are not above reaching back down to help give us a hand up another rung, my true thanks & undying gratitude. as a gay person, i have many of the same issues to face as you do, and then some. i know more than a few gay cisguys who have stuck up for me in situations & have genuinely accepted me as a brother. you may have no idea how life-affirming & life-changing that can be for someone like me. i would go to hell & back in place of any of these guys if necessary. just because i have always been and always will be a eunuch does not mean that i am not a man.
& one last thing…to any of you gay cismen out there who seem to take pride in calling yourselves ‘bitchy’, please don’t do that. it sounds really immature & ignorant.

Aug 14, 2011 at 3:43 am · @Reply ·

kahlil

@Sigmund. after sigmund freud, i take it? if so, how can u not know that until not so long ago, most psychiatrists considered homosexuality to be a delusional condition? people like michelle & marcus bachmann still, obviously, believe it is. may i assume you’re a homosexual? if you are, may we then also assume that you have orientation delusions? perhaps dr. bachmann can ‘cure’ you of them. how does it make you feel to be called ‘delusional’, sigmund? everyone is supposed to have empathy for you, but you need not have any for anyone else? i wonder if there’s a psychiatric term for that, since we’re throwing them around willy-nilly. would you like to get off your high-horse & join the human race now? if not, i believe the psychiatric term for that is delusions of grandeur. have a lovely day :)

Theres sadly a lot of shitheads within this community ive unfortunately had too many runins with those kinds…including here under another name.This is my middle name I am using I dont use my first name because these idiots bullied lambasted and treated me like shit the same way they’ve treated others here.A good amount of these gay guys think they are tough therefore they spout off at the mouth ONLINE treating people like shit.Seems like they have some anger management problems if you ask me.Theres a lot of arrogance smartasses pompous behavior stuckup attitudes cliquey behavior im better then you are bs in this community as well.

I just have to face facts we are NOT a community and we never will be one especially when certain people are too damn hateful and bully others just because you disagree with them or dont like what they have to say.

For what its worth these individuals definitely dont speak for me and how much I give a damn about the trans community.Its sad that certain individuals paint this community in such a negative light and continue to not even giving a damn they do it.

Aug 14, 2011 at 4:12 pm · @Reply ·

Michael

Even more pathetic is how certain people discriminate against people just like them within the same damn community.Pitiful.They might as well just call themselves BIGOTS and call it a day they are definitely no better then the bigots thats for sure.Their behavior proves that and the way they treat others also

Aug 14, 2011 at 4:15 pm · @Reply ·

Michael

Now I just await the typical vile hateful arrogant responses… as usual.Bullies will be bullies doesnt matter if they are gay or straight a bully is still a bully.

Aug 14, 2011 at 4:17 pm · @Reply ·

Henry

@Michael: I have news for you, dumbass, you’re online too, and you’re also getting away with using swear words. Obviously, though, you can’t back up what you say. The whole tone you use is one of a person who hasn’t steeled himself to kill. I mean really kill.

The community stands strong despite any self-haters who have concerns about looking good in front of… who, exactly? Other than psychopathic bigots, only gay people post here. And unlike the bigots, we do have to fight for our survival.

Yes and how pray tell is it fighting for your fucking survival when people like your arrogant ass are too busy bashing people JUST LIKE YOU?No wonder people dont think this is a community more like a stuckup clique who only invites a chosen few into their pathetic posse.Pathetic.I can back up everything I am saying dipshit Ive got plenty of proof of idiots like yourself who act so damn self righteous as if you are BETTER THEN OTHERS.Hmm what does that remind me of?Oh yeah thats EXACTLY how the bigots act DUH.Please get over yourself already I am so tired of people like you in this community always so smug full of yourselves and constantly belittling what others say especially when they god forbid disagree with people like you. *rolls eyes*

Oh and my bad I forgot you knew everything I will be sure to remind myself of that from here on out.Good luck with your ego.

Aug 14, 2011 at 6:04 pm · @Reply ·

Henry

@Michael: We don’t claim to be a chosen few, unlike the Jews you hate so much, filthy anti-Semite. I don’t know why you sound so much like a woman when you think they’re inferior. If you didn’t think they were inferior, you’d be satisfied with the one woman you have. You wouldn’t need to look for little boys online to dominate.

Wow you’re fucked in the head plain and simple.Im gay idiot I have no desire to be with a woman and never would have that desire. Wth to that anti-semite comment? Jews? LOL wtf? You must be on drugs I have friends of all kinds straight gay jew protestant christian conservative catholic black white asian hispanic the list goes on and on.How can I SOUND anyway to begin with dumbass?This is the internet you can’t hear my voice when I type lmao

Im just gonna call you a troll and end it there you’re pretty much proving you are one by your comments.You just want a reaction from me plain and simple.

Aug 14, 2011 at 6:15 pm · @Reply ·

Alan

@Kahlil:

Thank you for commenting with your perspective. I want to emphasize that, just because I view LGBT as a concept that is unsustainable and unjustified, that does not mean that I am unsympathetic or lacking in empathy for trans people. For the record, I support probably 95% of what trans activists want. I have no personal issue with trans people, however trans is defined. What I do object to, and what causes the kind of resentment and hostility you see in many of these comments, is having my identity and name altered, and to have a civil rights movement working on my behalf appropriated.
It is simply wrong to tell gay and lesbian kids that they are, by definition, linked with transsexuals. It is also wrong to tell trans kids that their gender identity in some way means that they are sort of gay. A concept constructed of lies won’t stand.

Imagine two neighbors. The enjoy each other’s company. They occasionally go out for a meal or a show. They invite one another over. They gladly help one another by shoveling snow during storms or accepting deliveries, etc. Then one day, someone shows up and declares that they are now married, with a whole range of legal obligations to one another. Whatever goals or projects each had going on are now terminated and a new joint agenda is written up for them. Their two homes are knocked down and replaced with one and they are forced to co-habit. They are forced to pretend that they were always married since the beginning of time. They are prohibited from divorcing. No one asked for their consent. All of this was just done to them.

What do you think the outcome would be? A solid friendship is transformed into a bitter, resentment-filled sham marriage.

Perhaps I am not being clear. I am not asking for an explanation for the cause of or the biological basis for transgender identities. I understand transgender identities in the context of transsexuality. I am confused about transgender identities in other contexts.

For example, how is one who accepts her sex transgender? How is she a “girly-bodied man” and not simply a masculine woman? How is one who only identifies with the gender role of the opposite sex transgender when gender roles are socially constructed? How is a boy who plays with dolls and wears dresses a girl, and not simply a boy who plays with dolls and wears dresses? How does gender nonconformity qualify as transgender?

You don’t understand Transgendered identities. Do you understand why I’m lactose intolerant? I’m willing to bet that you don’t care. Try caring less about various identities. Everyone will be better off.

Mean this:

Otay. Let me try again… more direct this time. I mentioned various identities. Various as in multiple and different. A Trans person, “Suzan” will have an identity different from yours. Suzan will also have a different identity than another Trans person; let’s call her “Annie”. Suzan no longer identifies as Trans. She now just sees herself as a Lesbian, and refuses to involve herself with any facet of the Trans community. Suzan’s bitter. Annie remembers her struggle and wants to mitigate the turmoil and suffering experienced by others in various types and stages of transition. Annie’s caring and helpful. Different identities, see?

Nice try.

Aug 14, 2011 at 7:14 pm · @Reply ·

kahlil

@Alan: i can kinda understand your perspective on this but i don’t see how a civil rights movement working on your behalf has been “appropriated”. i see it as having been “expanded” to be inclusive of anyone who faces the same kinds of discrimination & bigotry, merely because they don’t conform to what society thinks of as ‘normal’ in terms of sexual &/or gender roles. and the same thing with your comments regarding kids. maybe rather than ‘linked by definition’, ‘linked by having to face the same kinds of bullying, discrimination & bigotry’ is more descriptive. it’s society at large that is linking them by definition, not us. what if i said that kids adopted by gay parents are linked, by definition, with being gay? doesn’t exactly wash, does it? you don’t believe that, do you? if not, then how can you say that gay & lesbian kids are linked by definition with being trans & vice-versa? it’s the same kind of argument used by those homophobes who are against gays being able to adopt. give the young kids some credit for brains. kids who are ‘different’ have a tendency to band together for mutual support & protection whether they are the same kind of ‘different’ or not. maybe we adults could learn something from them.
’60’s civil rights activists understood the value of coalitions. i don’t recall cesar chavez & martin luther king ever being at each others throats. it’s the ’cause’ we have in common, & that is what needs to be focused on, not finger-pointing back & forth any time there’s a setback of some kind. all human efforts suffer setbacks. what’s important is to pick ourselves up & go on rather than wasting time & effort on a ‘blame-fest’.

by the way, i love your ‘forced marriage’ metaphor, although i think it’s a bit over-dramatic. i wasn’t aware that there are a whole lot of forced legal obligations in any coalition of civil rights movements. you don’t seem to mind being ‘married’ to lesbians & bisexuals, so what, exactly is it that you find so unappealing about us ‘t’s? i’m crushed. and who, exactly, did tack the ‘t’ onto the end of ‘lgb’? don’t look at me, i just woke up one day & there it was & suddenly i didn’t feel quite so alone, hopeless & helpless anymore. but far be it from me to stay in a relationship in which i’m not wanted. i’m afraid i’ve come to the conclusion that you just may be slightly transphobic, alan. where do we go to sign the divorce papers? i want custody of the dog. :)

Aug 14, 2011 at 10:02 pm · @Reply ·

zrocqs

@bbg372: I can only assume from your latest response that you’re looking for an algebraic equation. Sorry. There is none that would apply. (At least none of which I am aware.) Maybe you should familiarize yourself with Chaos Theory and fractals. These disciplines require greater imagination and a sense of wonder.

You don’t understand discordance between gender and sex. Neither do I, because I’ve never experienced such. That doesn’t mean the condition doesn’t exist. You’re trying to superimpose your thoughts and experiences onto other people whose thoughts and experiences are largely different than yours. This is why you fail to understand. And your failure to understand frustrates you. That frustration causes you to reject the validity of the thoughts and experiences of the people whom you don’t understand. So maybe there is an equation here somewhere; an equation that doesn’t balance.

The lack of balance is yours. It doesn’t apply to the people you dismiss. Keep that in mind.

Aug 15, 2011 at 4:12 am · @Reply ·

Opinionated

This is exactly why I am not a part of the LGBT(even though I technically am).

All you guys do is “bitch, bitch, moan”. And no, it’s not JUST from the T community.
Why can’t any of you realize this is what anti-LGBT, heterosexual people want us to do? Everybody is fighting for their piece of the pie. We need to remind ourselves that even though being LGB is not the same as T, they have similarities. All of our people contributed to Stonewall one way or another.

I’m ashamed of you guys with the exception of the people on this post who do get it.

Aug 15, 2011 at 1:59 pm · @Reply ·

Alan

@Kahlil:

You can “expand” something to the point where it is fundamentally different from what it was previously. If someone decreed that the United States citizenship was hereby “expanded” to include “everyone who is not Russian” or “all Christians in the world”, it would be disingenous to say that what it means to be “American” had not been fundamentally altered. When you take a community based on a common trait – homosexual sexual orientation – and “expand” it to include millions of mostly heterosexual people who are defined by everything from transsexuality to hermaphroditism to transvestitism, then you are appropriating that community and altering it beyond recognition. I did not join a movement to embrace everything under the sun that is not “gender-normative” and I suspect most gay people didn’t either. That is not to say that I am hostile toward people characterized by gender atypical traits, but I have the right to decide which, if any, I want to identify with.

No, there is no issue in grouping gays, lesbians, and bisexuals together b/c they are all defined by a single common trait. There are differences b/t and among us, but there is a common defining bond. That does not exist as b/t LGBs and Ts.

If you want a coalition as African Americans had with migrant farm workers in the 60s, that’s fine. But that is a completely different thing than LGBT. Dr. King did not require Black people to redefine themselves to include mostly non-Black migrant farm workers and to pretend that they formed some sort of singular community with those farm workers. And more to the point, Dr. King did not tell Congress in 1964 that unless the Civil Rights Act were amended to address all of the demands of migrant farm workers, he would rather have no Civil Rights Act at all.

I understand gender identities that are logically consistent, e.g. cisgender and transsexual; I do not understand gender identities that are arbitrary and contradictory, e.g. girly-bodied man and princess boy.

The notion that if I do not understand certain transgender identities, then the problem is mine belies that no one has been able to adequately explain them, and that they are seeking my support and not the other way around.

You would do better to stop being antagonistic toward people who are trying to understand and support transgender people. It hurts your cause and makes you a poor ally.

For example, how is one who accepts her sex transgender? How is she a “girly-bodied man” and not simply a masculine woman? How is one who only identifies with the gender role of the opposite sex transgender when gender roles are socially constructed? How is a boy who plays with dolls and wears dresses a girl, and not simply a boy who plays with dolls and wears dresses? How does gender nonconformity qualify as transgender?

The first rule about being transgender is that you don’t get to define who’s transgender and who is not. Others do that for you, and to you.

I personally don’t identify as transgender. I fit pretty well into the gender binary model, in the subclass “frumpy female academic, a bit of a tomboy and always was”. Just like many of my colleagues.

Regarding biological sex, I don’t just stretch the boundaries of the binary model, I shatter them. 1985 diagnosis “undervirilised male”, 2005 diagnosis “severely androgenised woman”. Because of that, I’m put in the “transgender” category, along with drag queens, transsexuals, part-time cross-dressers, gender outlaws and the rest. My own opinions are immaterial. I don’t get a say in it.

I’m also a scientist. That means I can’t ignore the fact that while I may fit the gender binary model well, it’s right for me, it’s completely inaccurate for many.

To answer your question – I can’t answer it. I don’t have the privilege. Only non-trans people can say who’s trans and who isn’t. It’s a matter of power. Thus Butch Lesbians can insist they’re not transgender and make it stick. Intersex people cannot.

Aug 16, 2011 at 10:25 pm · @Reply ·

friday jones

@Abirdwillingtobeitself:
“I don’t know how an activist can fail to understand that she needs to stand up for her own rights.”

Looks like she wrote an article in order to stand up for her own rights, and a bunch of L&G folks here immediately jumped into “fuck these whiny, obnoxious, little trannies” mode. Sort of exactly the kind of response I’d expect from FreeRepublic.Com if a Log Cabin Republican posted there asking for more comprehensive inclusion of their group. “Fuck these whiny, obnoxious, little homos,” they’d say.

Are you L&G folks SURE you REALLY want to go down that path? If you do, prepare to be embarrassed to tell the young’uns what you did during The War some day. Seriously, aren’t you ashamed to be using the same arguments against trans people that the Reparative Therapy folks use against YOU?

Aug 17, 2011 at 3:54 am · @Reply ·

zrocqs

@bbg372: I did not intend to be antagonistic. I intended to be clear and concise. I apologize for my failure.

And now for the Big “But”. You assert that you “…are trying to understand and support transgender people.” In your previous posts, I read nothing that lead me to believe that you were trying to understand anything. Your posts seemed to be dismissive and even hostile. If I misread your posts, please cite what I missed. I’m a vegetarian, but I will eat crow when I’m wrong.

Finally, why would you have to understand the dynamics of Trans identities before offering your support to Trans people? There is nothing about their existance that is intrinsically harmful to anyone. The harm in this situation is one-way, and it is heaped upon them.

Aug 17, 2011 at 6:17 am · @Reply ·

JT

Ugh Trans activists are annoying.

The bill for ENDA which was being worked on for decades would have passed had Trans activists NOT butted in and bitched and moaned about how ENDA doesn’t include Trans people when eventually it would or laws protecting Trans people would pass and there are way more GLB people who would be helped by ENDA passing than having it not pass at all, and passing ENDA would have helped Trans people too.

Then you have the Trans activists who are totally nuts and blame EVERYTHING on Gay men, bisexuals, lesbians, heterosexuals, and everyone who isn’t Trans at all. The person in this essay is like this and he/she doesn’t want equality for anyone and is a hypocrite.

Aug 17, 2011 at 3:39 pm · @Reply ·

Opheliac

JT, please STFU and GTFO. No one wants to listen to your bullshit. That goes for all the other transphobes in here. Get. The. Fuck. Out.

Aug 17, 2011 at 3:53 pm · @Reply ·

ewe

@JT: you got that ENDA rhetoric directly from Barney Frank. That is the one of the very very few times i disagreed with him.

If I do not understand certain transgender identities, then I cannot know, let alone support their interests.

There is not necessarily anything that is intrinsically harmful about vegetarianism, and while I understand the concerns that lead one to choosing a vegetarian diet, I do not share them, but respect that it is the prerogative of one to not eat meat. It does not follow from this however, that I would support an initiative to eliminate meat from my diet.

Likewise, I may understand and respect transgender people, but it does not follow from this that I would support the deconstruction of a gender model that works for most people, which seems to be the goal of some trans-activists.

Aug 17, 2011 at 4:17 pm · @Reply ·

Bron

bbg372 : I’d have to assume (rightly or wronly) that’s only the most extremist trans activists. Extremists in any group often give the whole bunch a bad name.

Aug 17, 2011 at 4:42 pm · @Reply ·

zrocqs

@bbg372: The interests expressed in these posts has been whether to sever the “T” from the “LGB”. Separate yourself if you choose to do so. I suspect that you have already. Know that the larger Queer community has not, and will not.

I have never liked the acronym LGBT, don’t like the added Q either. To be inclusive of all among us, the acronym would have to be something closer to LGBYQQTSM2MFSPWONALfa3W…. I give up. I prefer the moniker “Queer”, because it’s much simpler, and because it’s harder to parse. And because it tends to piss off Queer conservatives, and that’s always a hoot.

May I suggest that you stop worrying about the deconstruction of gender models? The majority will remain the majority: i.e. hetero-normative. (Don’t try to deconstruct that, because underneath the surface, there’s a lot of freaky stuff going on there too.)

May I also suggest that you stop trying to understand Transgender people? Just respect the next Trans person you encounter.

The last word is yours if you choose. Have a good and fulfilling life.

Why don’t you ask Susan Stryker for a history lesson on trans people’s contribution to LGBT community’s issues over the years?

Why don’t you first look at Sylvia Rivera — a Stonewall Riot & Stonewall Uprising veteran — about the work she did as a founding member of the GLAA?

Why don’t you ask Cecilia Chung, who has worked as an HIV activist for years?

Why don’t you ask Shannon Minter about all of the work he has done as the legal director at NCLR — the lead attorney who argued all of the Prop 8/California marriage equality issues in the California Appeals Courts in 2007-2009? Or ask him about all of the work he does for lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as NCLR’s legal director?

Why don’t you ask Diego Garcia, who worked for HIV and marriage equality issues for decades in Massachusetts, and is currently Rep. Barney Frank’s legislative aide?

Why don’t you ask Allison Gill who works at GLSEN for LGBT youth anti-bullying issues?

Why don’t you ask Kelly Moyer, who one of the two key organizers for a 20,000 person march in San Diego following the Prop 8 vote in 2008?

Why don’t you ask Allyson Robinson at the HRC who in her tenure there has worked on LGBT diversity and DADT issues?

Why don’t you ask Babs Siperstein about her LGBT issues work she’s done with Garden State Equality and the Democratic Party on LGBT issues?

Why don’t you ask Donna Rose about the work she’s done regarding LGBT in the media issues as a past board member at GLAAD? Or Jennifer Boylan about her work on LGBT in the media issues as a current board member of GLAAD?

Why don’t you ask Laura Calvo about her work on equality issues as the elected treasurer of Oregon’s State Democratic Party?

Why don’t you ask Robin McGehee of GetEqual how many trans people have volunteered to participate for direct actions regarding DOMA and DADT?

Why don’t you ask me about going to jail twice in protesting for the repeal of DADT when repeal of DADT doesn’t effect trans people?

~~~

This is hardly a full list of trans activists who’ve worked on behalf of lesbian, gay, and bisexual people on LGBT community issues.

Trans people have been in the trenches since at least the birth of modern LGBT activism at the Stonewall Riot/Stonewall Uprising. Trans people are still working on LGBT community issues.

That you haven’t noticed the many trans people have worked, and/or are working, on LGBT community issues doesn’t invalidate what they have done — and are still doing — for the broader LGBT community.

In a way, the issue of whether transpeople “fit in” with the larger LGB community in both academic and social senses is irrelevant.

Whether or not gay people want to be associated with transpeople, they’re going to be lumped together by homophobes. There are plenty of people who attack transpeople because “only a fag would dress up as a woman”. Feminine gay guys and masculine lesbians aren’t just discriminated against by straight bigots, but also by the more “mainstream” members of their own communities. Clearly, transpeople face anti-gay violence, and many gay people are marginalized not necessarily for their orientations, but rather for their gender presentations.

Obviously, transpeople and LGB people don’t face EXACTLY the same kinds of difficulties at all times. There’s power in numbers though, and if you’re facing the same discriminations at least part of the time, why not team up? “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.”