MANY mainstream moms (not nearly all, but many, esp those who have sarcastic mottos like that) see what we do (co-sleep, sling, EBF--or even BF--don't CIO, etc) as hindering kids growths, hanging on too long, smothering them, spoiling them, etc. They think we sleep with the baby because we're too unwilling to let go, that we EBF because we like it for us, and don;t want our kids to grow up. Kind of a manipulating way of emotionally stunting them for our own agenda, kwim?

But don't you think that it is very possible to really believe that AP is bad for kids? That there are parents who believe as strongly as we do, that they are doing the "right" thing? I think there may be people who are co-sleeping for the wrong reasons. I think there may be some parents who are struggling with appropriate boundaries and letting go. There might even be parents who are attracted to AP because they struggle with anxiety and AP parenting does fit their needs. I don't think that is what AP is about, I don't think that is by any means the majority but not everyone that calls themselves AP is necessarily doing great parenting and certainly many mainstream parents are doing a great job.

MsMo, that's what I was saying. That they think what I already said in my PP and kava said in hers and you said in yours!

Did you think I was pitting mother against mother? Certainly I was not.

BUT on the same topic, I know people who have beaten their kids, honestly thinking that they were doing good for their kids. Does that mean that they were doing the right thing? Or that this practice should be continued or accepted? No. (i'm thinking along the lines of circing, spanking, etc...)

Kelly, mama (12yoDS), doula, RN, and writer.There's no where you can be that isn't where you were meant to be, its easy

I agree with what someone else said, I really love the ending she puts after she cut off the tip of his penis he stills loves her. What does that prove anyway? children who are abused by their parents still love their parents because that's all they've ever known.

The term AP has left a bad taste in most peoples mouth. It's just a term. A concept.
So, rephrase your questions and sub in a specific choice.

But don't you think that it is very possible to really believe that breastfeeding is bad for kids?

But don't you think that it is very possible to really believe that circumcision is good for kids?

But don't you think that it is very possible to really believe that CIO is good for kids?

But don't you think that it is very possible to really believe that babywearing is bad for kids?

But don't you think that it is very possible to really believe that cosleeping is bad for kids?

That changes the answer for many people. It's no longer a matter of opinion. Many of those things have PROVEN benefit. COI and hitting have been proven harmful.

No one is putting mothers against each other. This is what I believe is ideal. That is what I believe to be unacceptable.

I know for a fact that some people THINK that co-sleeping and baby wearing and not spanking is harmful to kids. There are parents out there who think co-sleeping leads to SIDS, baby wearing spoils children and makes them clingy, and not spanking them will turn them into disobediant juvenile delinquents.

I know for a fact that some people THINK that co-sleeping and baby wearing and not spanking is harmful to kids. There are parents out there who think co-sleeping leads to SIDS, baby wearing spoils children and makes them clingy, and not spanking them will turn them into disobediant juvenile delinquents.

I don't think we are going to be able to change the way parents raise thier children by being "right" and making other people feel really "wrong". The holier than thou attitude that some people have about their parenting is really discouraging to me. I don't think people that parent different than I do are lazy or selfish or evil... that would just make me judgemental and narrow minded. This whole thread makes me really uncomfortable.

There are certain things that I don't think are harmful and others things that I do see as harmful. someone who decides to use a crib rather then co-sleep is not harming their baby. I didn't even intend to co-sleep at first but grew to love it. that is my choice, I'm not really sure that it made my daughter love me or vise versa any more then if she was in a crib. all I know is that I enjoy it, waking up to her smiling face. if someone doesn't enjoy it then what's the point? both baby and mom are just going to be miserable and that's not good for anyone.

i do however think that cutting off a part of your child's body that belongs there as a routine cosmetic procedure is harmful. It hurts and in most cases there is no medical reason for it and they don't even use anethesia(again the majority of cases). I don't think I am trying to sound superior to another mother when I say that, I have a genuine concern for children, it hurts me to know when they are harmed in any way. It upsets me to know there are people out there who think just because they're tiny they don't have feelings.

i think all mothers judge each other though, and most of all themselves. You said you don't see how any good can come out of that. i can see how it leads to hurt feelings but i see a lot of good coming out of mothers holding each other and themselves to the highest standard possible for their children.

I've been : on this thread from the start. Much of that woman's sig REALLY bothered me.

However, I did a lot of what she did with my first child, some -like circ. was b/c of ignorance (and actually that was with my second, as my first is a girl ), but that ignorance was only that I chose to believe every pediatrician I knew, which I hardly thought was some horrible trait in a mom.
Some was because I had failed (and IMO been failed by Dr.s nurses, etc) like BFing, which went horribly.
And some was truly b/c I thought it was best for my child. I TRULY believed that co-sleeping was dangerous, and let's face it, the vast majority of medical professionals will tell you that co-sleeping *is* dangerous, the only people I knew who co-slept were people who were not doing it b/c they had researched it and knew it was safe, they were people who *thought* it was unsafe and did it anyway b/c it was easier---hardly the people I wanted to model myself after, also- those same people always complained of horrible sleep problems.
I used cloth from the start, but I have friends whose Dr.s told them that they weren't *sanitary* or they had read some stupid article stating that CD were actually *worse* for the environment . And- some have to do all of their laundry at the laundrymat, so CD was not realistic (I know some people do theirs there TYVM ).
There have also been points where I have WOH, my children had this massive need to eat and be clothed, and well, dh had been laid off and hadn't found work yet, etc.

So- although this woman's tone reaks of major issues (joking about cutting of part of her son's penis), I have to agree with the PP's who say that there are many issues at play for mamas who choose all of the things that woman listed in her siggie. If not for a great LLL, and finding this board, I wouldn't be a totally AP mom now, I am thankful for those who taught me gently (esp. about GD).

IMO- this woman's sig. is a cry out there to those of us who care to get out there and educate other folks (I even talk to friends who are single or TTC) about the *easy* ones like circ. (where a simple education should do it- I have some pretty smart friends who seem open to hearing from me ), talk about the natural/ worldwide proof of safe of co-sleeping- b/c let's face it- if you google it, chances are, you're going to find more medical papers saying it is unsafe.
Breastfeeding- educate your pediatrician, convince them to get a LC on call for their practice, go to LLL even if *you* don't need their help anymore, to help the new mamas (talking to myself here, I got so much there and have given very little back).
Babywearing, cloth diapers, etc.- keep on keeping on, do it, talk to friends about why you do, offer to help them start with these things, etc.

So- take anger about this woman's nasty siggie and do something positive. Next time your babe goes to the Dr., bring some anti-circ. pamphlets for them to pass out (and the OB's office), some numbers for local LC's. Offer to put Dr. Sears (I know some here hate him) book in the waiting room (at the OB's would be more likely for that one to go over).

I really think we can see a change in the tide here towards a more AP world, if we work hard to gently educate those we can reach. Fighting the virtues of AP with those who are like the woman with this sig. is often time wasted, but there are many out there open to hearing, esp. those without children at this point, so talk to them .

So- take anger about this woman's nasty siggie and do something positive. Next time your babe goes to the Dr., bring some anti-circ. pamphlets for them to pass out (and the OB's office), some numbers for local LC's. Offer to put Dr. Sears (I know some here hate him) book in the waiting room (at the OB's would be more likely for that one to go over).

I really think we can see a change in the tide here towards a more AP world, if we work hard to gently educate those we can reach. Fighting the virtues of AP with those who are like the woman with this sig. is often time wasted, but there are many out there open to hearing, esp. those without children at this point, so talk to them .

I think that is what has been bothering me. I worry about criticizing without offering alternatives. I agree that AP the term is often the problem rather than the actual beliefs we hold. I don't mean to be frustrated with the mothers here... you are the mothers I have the most faith in to actually change things. I just wonder how to get people to question these long held beliefs. I wonder how to make it easier for parents, not harder. If only they could see that noncirc, co-sleeping, slinging, bf, etc. are actually easier ways of parenting- not huge sacrifices we are asking of them.

She was not being ignorant when she posted "cut off my wiener". Let's not get ignorance and stubborn mixed up.

One of the mothers on this board said that she circ'ed her first three sons out of ignorance. Would you, having been ignorant, then go and post anywhere or write anywhere, that you "cut off his wiener"? I seriously doubt it. You did it because you didn't know any better. You were not cruel, just uninformed. What she is saying is cruel.

She was not being ignorant when she posted "cut off my wiener". Let's not get ignorance and stubborn mixed up.

One of the mothers on this board said that she circ'ed her first three sons out of ignorance. Would you, having been ignorant, then go and post anywhere or write anywhere, that you "cut off his wiener"? I seriously doubt it. You did it because you didn't know any better. You were not cruel, just uninformed. What she is saying is cruel.

I agree about this woman being cruel with her circ. quote, but many others are ignorant- that's all I was saying.

I think I get the point the siggy-writer was making, but I still think it's absolutely obnoxious. To use the phrase about cutting of part of my wiener just belittles and minimises what actually happened to that little one's penis - as if it's some kind of a joke...

Yup, I have no doubt whatsoever that she does love her child, but that doesn't mean that every decision she makes is infallible, any more that mine are. I suppose the difference is that she seems proud of it...

I know it's really easy to slip into the 'us vs them' mentality, especially when the beliefs in question are really strongly held, but the sig just came off as defiant, kwim? Like, 'I know I'm wrong but no-one has the right to make me feel bad...' (especially the people who don't agree with my choices)

I know for a fact that some people THINK that co-sleeping and baby wearing and not spanking is harmful to kids. There are parents out there who think co-sleeping leads to SIDS, baby wearing spoils children and makes them clingy, and not spanking them will turn them into disobediant juvenile delinquents.

Yep, try my own mom. Just yesterday we were discussing how she thinks we are making DD too dependent on us/me because we are still nursing and co-sleeping at 20 mos.

I will never understand why people want to push babies to be independent and then try to hold them back as teenagers. It's so backwards to me.

I guess the problem is that people don't care enough to educate themsleves. It blows my mind that someone would make those choices without reading the research and searching out both sides of the story. The information is out there. There is research that proves those things beneficial. It's a pet peeve of my to hear a parent blame a bad choice on a Doctor. It's a bad idea to base anything based on a doctors opinion, unless it is in regaurd to your health or you're bleeding! What makes people think Dr.s know anything about parenting? Hell, our doctor doesn't even have kids! And when she tries to give anti-ap parenting advice I remind her of that. What will parents start taking responsibility for their own children and the choices they make for them? It's not you mothers, your doctors or your girlfriends choice and they will never have to face the consequences for those choices. I guess I expect too much by expecting parents to make informed decisions.

I guess the problem is that people don't care enough to educate themsleves. It blows my mind that someone would make those choices without reading the research and searching out both sides of the story. The information is out there. There is research that proves those things beneficial. It's a pet peeve of my to hear a parent blame a bad choice on a Doctor. It's a bad idea to base anything based on a doctors opinion, unless it is in regaurd to your health or you're bleeding! What makes people think Dr.s know anything about parenting? Hell, our doctor doesn't even have kids! And when she tries to give anti-ap parenting advice I remind her of that. What will parents start taking responsibility for their own children and the choices they make for them? It's not you mothers, your doctors or your girlfriends choice and they will never have to face the consequences for those choices. I guess I expect too much by expecting parents to make informed decisions.

MHL- I have to tell you, you have been one of my favorite posters here at MDC, so I hope you don't think I am just a MHL hater or something .

I think your above post is rather self-righteous and of very little help, it just serves the mommy wars, as did the sig. line posted in the OP.

IMO, we *should* be able to ask our pediatricians if there is a valid medical reason for circumcision and get a correct answer, ditto for vaccines. Surely, your dr. can't tell you how often you should hold your child, or what form of discipline to use. But- in my dream world, one could ask them about the relative safety of co-sleeping and vaccination, circumcision, etc. I asked my pediatrician about getting one of those little indoor trampolines, I figure- she is the one who sees the kids with broken arms, right? (BTW- she said not to get one, lots of broken arms )

One thing I have realized is that many Dr.s can't even be trusted for medical advice, I have LEARNED that, but I don't fault mamas who haven't learned that hard lesson yet.

It is very hard to be a mama, period. It is outstandingly hard when you realize that you can't even trust your pediatrician, OB, etc. to do what is healthiest for you and your baby. Why even have these medical professionals, yk?

I think the person who posted the siggie in the OP might be as bad as you are making most mainstream people out to be, but I think the majority of mainstream mamas have just not learned that things like vax, circ. etc are not as clear cut as their medical professionals make them out to be.

That is why I think, ideally, the Dr.s would be properly educated. IMO, a mama should not have the added burden of being a medical professional, and I often get mad about the sheer amount of research I have to try to wade through (with my degree in El. Ed. lol) to try to decide on vaccination. Certainly, some things are more clear cut- like circ. and BFing, but the jury is so far out on others, I think it is wrong to think these mamas lazy, uneducated, etc, simply b/c they think a medical professional should be able to do their job doing what is safest for your child.

I think she saw that original sig and jumped on the bandwagon with whatever she thought was applicable.

Have there been CIO or circ debates there?
Something must have happened to make these women mad. Maybe they've had bad experiences with AP mamas in the past?
I dunno...maybe they're just bored and trying to start a fight...trying to advertize which side of the mommy war they're on.
The way they're acting is really juvenile, though, and I'm not guessing the trend will really continue. Trying to give someone the finger by talking badly about yourself isn't a great way to "rally the troops", yk?
Something like "Happy, ff, sleepin' thru the night baby to my loving mommy" would have served their purpose better, I'd guess.

I guess the problem is that people don't care enough to educate themsleves. It blows my mind that someone would make those choices without reading the research and searching out both sides of the story. The information is out there. There is research that proves those things beneficial. It's a pet peeve of my to hear a parent blame a bad choice on a Doctor. It's a bad idea to base anything based on a doctors opinion, unless it is in regaurd to your health or you're bleeding! What makes people think Dr.s know anything about parenting? Hell, our doctor doesn't even have kids! And when she tries to give anti-ap parenting advice I remind her of that. What will parents start taking responsibility for their own children and the choices they make for them? It's not you mothers, your doctors or your girlfriends choice and they will never have to face the consequences for those choices. I guess I expect too much by expecting parents to make informed decisions.

Thats my sister. She's absolutely bent on staying as ignorant as possible. She turns her nose up at information. Even when the information sinks in, she *still* won't stand up for her baby (due in August) She watched a show about FGM, and commented on how she doesn't see any difference between that & circ. but her DH is for it, and she's "not totally closed-minded against it, either" WTF?!

Thats my sister. She's absolutely bent on staying as ignorant as possible. She turns her nose up at information. Even when the information sinks in, she *still* won't stand up for her baby (due in August) She watched a show about FGM, and commented on how she doesn't see any difference between that & circ. but her DH is for it, and she's "not totally closed-minded against it, either" WTF?!

See, here's the thing, your sister would be the type to have her daughter circ.ed if she lived where that were the norm, we like to think that we are "better than those people" in other societies who do it, but the reasoning is often the same. Some people truly believe it is needed medically, others do it for the "fitting in" factor.

See, here's the thing, your sister would be the type to have her daughter circ.ed if she lived where that were the norm, we like to think that we are "better than those people" in other societies who do it, but the reasoning is often the same. Some people truly believe it is needed medically, others do it for the "fitting in" factor.

It's NOT the norm here. When DS was born in 2002, about 26% of baby boys were circ'ed. Since then, a little boy actually died of bleeding from his circ & the rate has dropped even further. They basically *refuse* to do it in the hospital, you have to make an appointment after you go home to have it done. With her, I think it's more about being spineless when it comes to her DH (who claims to be open to the idea of not having it done) and MIL (who is adamant that it's necessary)

She's the same with breastfeeding (it's okay to do, but no one else should have to see it... she'll 'give it a try' but the baby is getting a bottle everyday from day 1, because she wants it to know how to use one... pumping isn't 'her thing' the bottle will be formula... if the baby gets nipple confusion, then it can be formula fed)

and birth (she doesn't want a c-section, but they only do them when they're needed... she doesn't want 'some hippy' >>read: doula<< at her birth making her feel guilty if she wants drugs... her friend was in labour for over 2 days before they gave her her c-section & no-one should have to labour that long)

...and just about every other parenting issue. Unfortunetly, I think people like her are the norm.

I know that sometimes a person doesn't have the information or the strength or the support to make *all* the healthier choices.. but that signature seems to acnowledge that she knows she's made the lesser choice over & over & over again & she isn't at all interested in taking responsibility for any of her choices. The way that signature line reads to me is the same as if the poster had written "It's okay that I beat my dog everyday, because he'd still lay down his life to protect me if I were ever attacked"