Seattle CCW Incident

A man was fatally shot just before noon today at Westlake Plaza in Seattle's high-end downtown shopping district after assaulting a random pedestrian.

After a day of investigation, Seattle Police determined the shooting was a bizarre case of self-defense.

The shooter, described as a balding man in a black leather jacket, was arrested, questioned, then released by detectives. His name was withheld by police.

The deceased man, described by witnesses as a man in his early 20s wearing a yellow shirt, died of a gunshot wound to his abdomen after being taken to Harborview Medical Center. The King County Medical Examiner was trying to determine his name, but the man was not carrying any identifying information.

At about 11 a.m. on Saturday, Seattle police received a 911 call about a man in a yellow shirt acting erratically and "verbally harassing" passing pedestrians near Pike Street and Boren Avenue, said Seattle Police spokeswoman Deb Brown.

A half-hour later, the man apparently had moved on to Westlake Plaza, where he continued to scream at pedestrians, said Brown. One of his targets was the shooter, who had just finished lunch in the area.

The man in the yellow shirt attacked the shooter, punching and kicking him until the shooter pulled out a concealed weapon and fired a single shot. Witnesses said the shooter fired after being knocked down.

Afterward, the shooter sat down on a planter and handed his gun to police officers when they arrived. The man had a legal gun permit, said Brown.

The shooting, at 11:33 a.m., stunned shoppers who jammed the stone-paved streets of Seattle's retail core.

It will be up to King County prosecutors to determine whether the shooter faces charges. But after interviewing the man and several other witnesses, detectives decided to not book him into the King County Jail. "It could be considered a justifiable homicide," said Assistant Police Chief Jim Pugel.

After a day of investigation, Seattle Police determined the shooting was a bizarre case of self-defense.

Bizarre???

After being attacked and knocked down I would think it would be justified as the Assistant Chief said, not bizarre.

SAG0282

October 7, 2006, 11:03 PM

Yeah I'm struggling to understand the use of the word "bizarre" here. My guess is that as facts become available, we will find that the deceased is well-known to local law enforcement there.

Wes Janson

October 7, 2006, 11:03 PM

Me wonders why half an hour went by after getting a "crazy person" call, without anyone showing up to check out the situation.

Black Majik

October 7, 2006, 11:07 PM

shooter pulled out a concealed weapon and fired a single shot

Effective case of one shot stop. Must have been a .45. :evil:

Geronimo45

October 7, 2006, 11:09 PM

Moral of story: Don't mess with bald guys in leather jackets.

PlayboyPenguin

October 7, 2006, 11:10 PM

Me wonders why half an hour went by after getting a "crazy person" call, without anyone showing up to check out the situation.
Because, like here in PDX, if there in not an immediate active threat to a life the average response time is about 2-3 hours. This does not count the aveage 15-20 minute wait to talk to a 911 operator.

This is one of those examples where some people will say "if the guys was screaming at people and acting crazy the shooter should have avoided the area or ran away when the guy pushed him down". I will never understand those people.

yongxingfreesty

October 7, 2006, 11:10 PM

heh, that .45 sure is a one hitter quitter

PlayboyPenguin

October 7, 2006, 11:13 PM

Since the guy died later at a local hospital it could have been anything from a .22 on up.

44Brent

October 7, 2006, 11:15 PM

I work in the area and have noticed that there are a lot of mentally ill people walking the streets. About once a week I will see a street person screaming at other people. Everyday I see at least one street person talking to themselves (usually cursing).

Geno

October 7, 2006, 11:16 PM

What more could this man have done...waited to be shot first? "Do not fire until fired upon!"

Wow, given that one-shot stop, I'll bet he was using a Glock 17 with +P+ 9mms. :)

Doc2005

Unisaw

October 8, 2006, 12:05 AM

The Seattle Times has now updated the article. It still describes the incident as bizarre, but you've gotta love the headline:

Victim fatally shoots downtown assailant
By Jonathan Martin

Seattle Times staff reporter

A bizarre case of what appeared to be justifiable homicide rattled the heart of Seattle's swanky downtown shopping district late Saturday morning.

Seattle police are still piecing together what happened, but this much is known: A young man was killed on the crowded sidewalk outside Westlake Center, and the confessed shooter was allowed to walk out of a police station.

The case, according to police and witnesses, began at 11 a.m. Saturday with a 911 call.

Witnesses reported a man in a yellow shirt acting erratically, insulting and threatening passing pedestrians at Pike Street and Boren Avenue near the Washington State Convention and Trade Center, said Seattle police spokeswoman Deb Brown.

A half-hour later, a man matching the same description was reported near Westlake Center. At the same time, a second man, described by witnesses as balding and wearing a leather jacket, was walking through the nearby plaza after finishing his lunch.

Neither man's identity was released by police on Saturday.

The man in the yellow shirt apparently focused in on the second man, saying, "I am going to kill you," Brown said. He then began punching and kicking the second man until the man fell to the sidewalk.

"He was down there, minding his own business. There is nothing to think he was anything but a random target," Brown said.

The victim happened to have a concealed-weapons permit, Brown said, and he was carrying a handgun. He pulled out the gun and fired once, hitting his attacker in the abdomen.

"It looked to me like he shot him in self-defense," said Linda Vu, who was across the street from the shooting, handing out fliers for political activist Lyndon LaRouche. "It's kind of crazy."

The man in the yellow shirt died after being taken to Harborview Medical Center. The King County Medical Examiner was trying to determine his identity, a task complicated by the fact that the man carried no identification.

Several nearby Seattle police officers heard the gunshot. When they arrived at the shooting scene, the victim, sitting on a streetside planter full of purple pansies, handed the gun to them and said, "I am the one who did this," according to Assistant Police Chief Jim Pugel.

The man was arrested, but after questioning him and other witnesses, detectives determined they did not have probable cause to book him into the King County Jail. The man was released. Police said they were withholding his name as a crime victim — of the assault.

It will be up to the county prosecutor to determine whether the man will face charges. But Pugel said, "It could be considered justifiable homicide."

The shooting stunned Jim and Edith Welsh, tourists from Australia who'd just left the Nordstrom store across the street when police arrived. Peering across the police tape draped across Pine Street, Welsh hugged his wife. "I think we're going back to our hotel right now," he said.

Jonathan Martin: 206-464-2605 or jmartin@seattletimes.com

Travis Lee

October 8, 2006, 12:08 AM

Hope he kept his mouth shut til he got an attorney.

Police didn't arrest Harold Fish, Either.

--Travis--

Unisaw

October 8, 2006, 12:13 AM

I hope the shooter wasn't someone on this board. If he is like most people, he is devastasted by this incident.

carpettbaggerr

October 8, 2006, 12:39 AM

This is one of those examples where some people will say "if the guys was screaming at people and acting crazy the shooter should have avoided the area or ran away when the guy pushed him down". I will never understand those people.Well, the guy will almost certainly have several thousand dollars in legal bills, if he doesn't wind up in jail (like Fish did). :uhoh:

Leaving the area, or using less-lethal methods of defense are often preferable, as well as much cheaper.

tenbase

October 8, 2006, 12:44 AM

Moral of story: Don't mess with bald guys in leather jackets.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4757/vicmackeybo9.jpg

Huddog

October 8, 2006, 12:47 AM

Seattle Times at least seems to have figured out who the "victim" was in this incident. Lets send good wishes and prayers to the "victim" who was forced to use his concealed weapon to defend himself. At least he was able to do so.

springmom

October 8, 2006, 12:52 AM

I expect that the "bizarre" label was meant to encompass the entire incident. And it was bizarre....guy is sitting and eating his lunch and he's attacked out of the blue. That's bizarre.

Me wonders why half an hour went by after getting a "crazy person" call, without anyone showing up to check out the situation.Well, if you'd ever spent any time in downtown Seattle, you wouldn't wonder ... nutcases are pretty commonplace, albeit not usually this violent ... all the cops were probably up in the top floor food court in the Westlake Center, anyway.
Because, like here in PDX, if there in not an immediate active threat to a life the average response time is about 2-3 hours.Actually, I'd have to disagree here; around Westlake Center, Pike Place and Pioneer Square are usually the only places you can find a lot of law enforcement in Seattle at any given time and see reasonable response time ...

Believe it or not folks, both the (liberal-leaning) Seattle Times and Post-Intelligencer have reporters and editors who understand that a lot of folks in Washingon carry guns, and that firearms are important to vast numbers of state residents. This is, after all, the original "shall-issue" state.

Cosmoline

October 8, 2006, 03:06 AM

I've seen some of the bums in DT Seattle. They're totally out of control. I suspect the local government feels they have a right to attack people for money. The situation is pretty bad in Stumptown as well. Glad I left all that.

IDriveB5

October 8, 2006, 03:07 AM

Effective case of one shot stop. Must have been a .45.

No no no, musta been a .357magnum :neener:

In all seriousness, I feel real bad for those invovled.

enkindler

October 8, 2006, 03:15 AM

I do agree that the "bizarre" label is meant to be inclusive of the entire event. The area in question is populated by a number of transients but it also has a lot of foot traffic from people shopping at a number of higher end shops. It is very odd to have something happen in that area at this time of day.

I do wonder if the majority of police were busy directing traffic for Seattle's American Heart Walk which closes down major streets and was to be ending at about the time this happened. They may have prioritized the call lower due to the location of the original incident too. There are a number of well known transients who live in downtown Seattle that are very vocal but harmless, visiting tourists who are fortunate to not have such a blaring reminder of our failed mental health system at home tend to make lots of calls. I am not belittling or blaming them for calling, but I think the police may be desensitized to the number of calls, there is little they can legally do to help these very sick people.

I am very sorry that this man had to go through this, it sounds like he was pretty bummed about what he had to do. I am glad that the gentleman lived and that other bystanders weren't hit, it must have been a complicated shooting scenario and it could have gone from bad to worse.

All in all I hope he copes well and it's a good reminder that you should carry as often as possible, police response can be slow.

The thing that bothers me is that in a high foot traffic area there wasn't a single mention of anyone coming to his aid. It may be that the paper didn't report people who did but it may be time to leave the city to go back to areas where tend to stand up for one another.

Autolycus

October 8, 2006, 03:21 AM

In IL the victim would be on trial for murder. :barf:

shermacman

October 8, 2006, 09:31 AM

I want to believe that the word "bizarre" meant the entire event. But the presstitute also wrote this:

and the confessed shooter was allowed to walk out of a police station

Note the word "allowed". As if the victim had done anything wrong. The victim was verbally threatened with murder, then the victim was repeatedly hit, then the victim shot and killed the bad guy. Obviously, he should have been "allowed to walk out of a police station".

MillCreek

October 8, 2006, 12:26 PM

Moral of story: Don't mess with bald guys in leather jackets.

I resemble that remark! Up until two years ago, I had worked in downtown Seattle for twenty years, and my office was just a few blocks from Westlake Center. As is common with most big cities these days, the EDPs (emotionally disturbed persons) are very common downtown. Back when I was a paramedic, we joked that downtown Seattle was the state's largest open-air psychiatric unit. The Seattle Police Department radio code at the time for an EDP was '220', and we used to talk about our patients who were 219 and seven-eighths.

My sympathies to all involved in the incident. I would bet that no charges will be filed against the victim of the assault.

enkindler

October 8, 2006, 02:55 PM

Look at the spin in the "more" liberal paper we have in town.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/287954_westlake08ww.html

c_yeager

October 8, 2006, 05:45 PM

I am not seeing a whole lot of spin in that article. It seems pretty clearly throught who the bad guy was. There are some ignorant quotes from bystanders, but bystanders are generally pretty ignorant, cant blame the paper for that.

Seattle is a weird city when it comes to gun-related issues. It has the feel of a San Francisco-lite, and the city council embraces this pretty enthusiasticaly. However, our liberal leaders continiously butt up against Seattle's deep blue-collar roots and seem to have abandoned the gun control issue around here. There are a lot of defensive shootings around here (all the problems of a big coastal city combined with a shall-issue state) and they are rarely prosecuted with any injustice, even when questionable.

enkindler

October 8, 2006, 05:56 PM

Oops,

This is what happens when replace vs. cut and paste,

I originally had a line after the URL talking about the recent pro-gun control stories that had been in the PI and how this story didn't seem to reflect their normal stance.

I agree that they reported this story in a mostly fair manor.

c_yeager

October 8, 2006, 06:01 PM

I originally had a line after the URL talking about the recent pro-gun control stories that had been in the PI and how this story didn't seem to reflect their normal stance.

Don't get me wrong, the PI is absurdly liberal. Of course so is the Times. Occassionally they will accidentally print an article that actually makes sense, but that is the exception. You can tell that the guy who wrote the linked article really *wanted* to spin the story, but the facts just didnt cooperate, and apparently he was above outright making them up (which places them in the top 10% of Seattle media personell).

It sure would be nice if we had more than two newspapers (that come off the same press).

Stiletto Null

October 8, 2006, 06:03 PM

I'd think bizarre because it was "some guy just started beating up on the other guy", as opposed to something with some kind of motive.

twency

October 8, 2006, 06:22 PM

From the second linked story:Investigators said the man who was killed approached the other and out of the blue started assaulting him. The man who was being hit fired one round from his own weapon, which police say was legally registered.
So Washington requires registration of handguns? Or was that a confabulation of the writer, and it was just the case that the shooter had a Concealed Pistol License?
____________
-twency

acdodd

October 8, 2006, 09:44 PM

Washington state does NOT register firearms.
He has a concealed-weapons permit.
Just another reporter making an incorrect statement.

PlayboyPenguin

October 8, 2006, 11:46 PM

You can tell that the guy who wrote the linked article really *wanted* to spin the story, but the facts just didnt cooperate, and apparently he was above outright making them up (which places them in the top 10% of Seattle media personell).

I saw no "slant" or "spin" to that article at all. How can you read an article and "tell they wanted to spin it" but just couldn't? When people say things like that it makes them seem like the ones doing the spinning.

psychophipps

October 9, 2006, 12:10 AM

Having just moved from PDX I can say that my 911 response time was always immediate and the police responded according to the urgency of the call. In fact, they got to my place to handle a noise complaint within 30 minutes on a Friday night and a domestic violence call within 15 minutes, again on a busy weekend night that had a spate of gang-related shootings up in Rockwood.

And I lived in Felony Flats,
Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

Dmack_901

October 9, 2006, 12:23 AM

I saw no "slant" or "spin" to that article at all. How can you read an article and "tell they wanted to spin it" but just couldn't? When people say things like that it makes them seem like the ones doing the spinning.They did say, "The victim was rushed to Harborview Medical Center where he later died." "Witnesses said the shooter sat down after pulling the trigger." The other article said he had only fired after being knocked down.

It wasn't too bad, but that "victim" part is crap.

PlayboyPenguin

October 9, 2006, 12:26 AM

In fact, they got to my place to handle a noise complaint within 30 minutes on a Friday nigh
You must have gotten very lucky. The last time I called 911 I did so because my sisters bf was tryng to break into her house and I made the 15 minute drive there before I actualy got an operator on the phone. The averages for 911 and police response times were available to us at our neighborhood watch meeting. I am not sure where they actually come from though. I would guess from the mayors office.

Gray Peterson

October 9, 2006, 05:00 AM

Washington state does NOT register firearms.
He has a concealed-weapons permit.
Just another reporter making an incorrect statement.

Actually, Washington State has a "handgun sales registry" for when you buy from a gun dealer. This is contained at the Department of Licensing-Firearms Division office in Olympia. However, Handgun Sales Registry information is private and cannot be accessed by anyone other than law enforcement, so there is no way for the reporter to know.

I will be placing a phone call to the Seattle PI and try to get a hold of this reporter to let her know that a Concealed Pistol License doesn't require the registration of handguns at all, or at least the editor.

That being said, the person from Snohomish County was correct about downtown Seattle: There are a lot of EDP's in downtown Seattle, centering around Pioneer Square area however due to the "Ride Free Area" in downtown they can move around pretty easily.

To give an idea of how dangerous things can be at any time. We had a raging psychotic on one of the buses here, the Sound Transit 565 that runs from Overlake Transit Center that's smack dab in the middle of Microsoft to Federal Way Transit Center. It runs a path down I-405 to SR-167, then goes west on US-18 and then heads north to S. 320th in Federal Way.

Anyway, during that time, the guy got on in Renton and was continually harassing and intimidating people, and this is one of the commuter buses during the commute hours for frak's sake. He didn't hit anyone, but he got WAAAY uncomfortably close to me. This was one of the biggest reasons I bought a car. Metro and Sound Transit absolutely refuse to take the TriMet route and start booting these psychotics off the buses and serving exclusions. Until then, I will not take a bus.

Street Rat

October 9, 2006, 02:38 PM

Hope he kept his mouth shut til he got an attorney

I just took my class for CCW last weekend. That was one of the things that were stressed. Do not say anything to the police until you talk to an attorney. Out of about 30 people in the class, he said maybe 2 would keep their mouth shut if the situation were to happen. Most of the people in prison are there because they can't keep their mouth shut.

No_Brakes23

October 9, 2006, 05:46 PM

The shooting stunned Jim and Edith Welsh, tourists from Australia who'd just left the Nordstrom store across the street when police arrived. Peering across the police tape draped across Pine Street, Welsh hugged his wife. "I think we're going back to our hotel right now," he said.

Was he thinking "We don't allow such anti-social idears as self defense, down undah."?

Reminds me of the Oz anti-gunner that was on NPR the other day trying to demonstrate the effectiveness of Oz gunbans by comparing firearms homicides in an Australian city versus an American city. Too bad he chose D.C. as his example, kinda demonstrates the opposite of what he wanted.

Unisaw

October 9, 2006, 06:59 PM

So far, the police seem to be treating the victim appropriately. From today's Seattle Times:

Police say they may never identify gunman

The identities of two men involved in a fatal shooting Saturday at Seattle's Westlake Center were not released Sunday, and police said they may never officially identify the man who pulled the trigger.

Police and witnesses said a man in a yellow shirt was fatally shot after he attacked another man about 11:30 a.m. at Fourth Avenue and Pine Street, in the heart of Seattle's downtown shopping district.

Police said they are treating the shooter as a crime victim, and they did not anticipate criminal charges against him.

The name of the man who was killed has not been released by the King County Medical Examiner's Office.

Geronimo45

October 9, 2006, 07:28 PM

That's the way things ought to be. Keep his name out of the papers - so the relatives of the dead guy won't be suing him, so the people he knows won't all think of him as a killer or something.
Treating him like a crime victim - that's exactly what he is.
+1 to the police involved for treating a guy in that situation the way they did. No charges yet, no name publicized.

cavman

October 9, 2006, 07:57 PM

I just got dropped off at the Plaza by the cabbie on Sat at 11am on the dot. My sister and I didn't see anything unusual. We must have walked away from it before it happened.

There were a lot of 'characters' in downtown Seatle, however.

Like the town a lot.

cavman

c_yeager

October 10, 2006, 01:00 AM

I saw no "slant" or "spin" to that article at all. How can you read an article and "tell they wanted to spin it" but just couldn't? When people say things like that it makes them seem like the ones doing the spinning.

When interviewing witnesses a reported has hundreds of quotable statements, you can detect the slant of the reported by the statements that he chooses to print. He didnt quote the guy who said "man, that crazy mother sure was looking to get shot". Instead he selected ""So I came out here to make sure he [the shooter] didn't get away, but I didn't accost him because he was standing there with a loaded weapon."

Jery Larson

October 10, 2006, 01:19 AM

With all this discussion, it's probably important to note that Seattle is akin to San Fran, and has a pretty left leaning to it.

This left lean is probably the source of the bizarre comment that would have many of us stumped. In Montana, if something like that would happen, it would certainly be in the news, yet unlikely bizarre.

I grew up outside of Seattle, and remember the news when a man in 1993 carried a AK (unloaded) on his shoulder as he strolled around Green Lake. He was within the law, yet the local news stations felt it news worthy to note... of course, that was just prior to the 1994 ban.

Seattle is a patch of blue in a sea of red in Washington...

PlayboyPenguin

October 10, 2006, 03:12 AM

When interviewing witnesses a reported has hundreds of quotable statements, you can detect the slant of the reported by the statements that he chooses to print.

And you have access to the quotes and can compare the ones he did and didn't choose to print? Unless you do you cannot judge whether this was spin or not since you yourelf do not know that facts of the event.

I must be missing something. Tell me where the spin is in this article.

Old Dog

October 10, 2006, 03:22 AM

Sure we can. Even without being there ...

But this is assuming competence on the part of the on-scene reporter, too.

As far as the quotes that end up in the final printed article, however, the editors will have the final say ... and in the case of the Seattle papers, we know which quotes will make the article.

I agree with Mr. Yeager. There was spin involved. And I'm sure plenty of witnesses accurately assessed the situation (hence law enforcement letting the shooter go sans charges).

With all this discussion, it's probably important to note that Seattle is akin to San Fran, and has a pretty left leaning to it.Disagree. Having lived in both cities. Big difference is, lots of liberals in Seattle love their guns, where in San Francisco, the liberals are afraid of guns ...

enkindler

October 10, 2006, 02:12 PM

As an update,

The perp was not an upstanding citizen,

He once tried to set his mothers daycare facility on fire with her and children in it!!!

Jail records also show he was arrested three times this year for violating the conditions of his release.
I think I see a problem here.

The concealed pistol was identified as a Ruger .357 revolver.
Witnesses told police the older man did nothing to provoke the attack in which he was punched and kicked until he fell to the sidewalk, at which point he drew a .357-caliber Ruger revolver and fired one shot.
I don't see a problem with that at all.

PlayboyPenguin

October 10, 2006, 03:14 PM

The concealed pistol was identified as a Ruger .357 revolver
YEAH!!! HA HA HA!! In your face you big autoloader lovers! Ruger all the way baby! :D

nomadboi

October 10, 2006, 03:24 PM

Some of the local crazies are actually kinda celebreties in their own right- remember when the Stranger tried to interview Mr. "Seattle Police are Communist!", who always stands on that corner over by the Nordstroms, shouting at passing traffic? Too bad even they couldn't understand a thing he was saying...

The reporting didn't seem that bad to me, but I'm just one of those gun-loving liberals.:D

ORAG

October 10, 2006, 03:27 PM

Somewhere in the past, the mental hospitals were shut down and the crazy people put on the street unless they were a threat. Here in Topeka we had the State Hospital, the VA and Menningers that all emptied their beds. We have more than our share of people acosting others. I think their church is Westborough Baptist Church where the Upwrong Rev Phelps and his followers hate in the name of God. A couple of weeks ago the front page of the paper told of one man that held the record for 122 arrests and finally he died when his liver quit from drinking a quart or two of mint mouth wash a day. 99 cents at the dollar store.
I do think it is also funny that some of the people talking to themselves now days are really talking on their blue tooth. Crazy behavior to me.

Eyesac

October 10, 2006, 03:46 PM

Sounds good to me, bad guy stopped, good guy at home with family. Lugging a gun around all day paid off...

Today's (10/11/06) Seattle Times published an accurate and factual article on the state's carry permit: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003298710_shootingside11m.html

Also of interest, the shooter is apparently homeless, his last two known addresses are homeless shelters in Federal Way and Seattle.

Dain Bramage

October 11, 2006, 10:43 AM

Carries Ruger snubby: check

Both the Seattle Times and P-I ran stories that the gun was a Ruger six-shooter in .357 mag.

Apparently the guy carried a GP-100.

/Seinfeld Voice:

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

MillCreek

October 11, 2006, 11:48 AM

I have two Ruger .357 six-round snubbies: a Security Six and a Speed Six, in addition to my several five-round SP-101s. I am quite fond of the Speed Six. So he could have a Six model or a GP-100. I wonder if the shooter had his revolver confiscated and if and when it will be returned to him.

Tim L

October 11, 2006, 01:01 PM

Mighty nice of the Seattle Times to include a link to the CCW permit application .pdf in the article Millcreek linked to. I think we need more newspapers to do that.

Tim

Unisaw

October 16, 2006, 01:27 PM

I have been watching the Seattle Times for any letters to the editor about this incident. Here's a great exchange between two doctors:

October 13, 2006:

Stopping power
Having no firearm, man might resort to instinctive wisdom

Editor, The Times:

It is not a surprise that the first letter published in "Escalating violence" [Times, Northwest Voices, Oct. 11] on the recent shooting at Westlake Center was by a gun advocate neatly seeing this tragedy as an example of appropriate use of firearms and the value to society of citizens being armed.

What we know from media accounts is that the deceased had a history of mental illness and violent behavior and was assaulting an armed homeless man in broad daylight on a crowded downtown square. While under attack, the shooter was able to retrieve his weapon and fire ["Victim fatally shoots downtown assailant," Local News, Oct. 8].

Had [the shooter] not been armed, would he have been seriously hurt, or would he have focused on defending himself short of using deadly force, or even using his free arm to gain some distance from his assailant? And were any of the many bystanders prepared to intervene or in the process of intervening before the shooter made his fateful decision?

The first rule of self-defense is prudence and escape when it is an option. Unfortunately, there are those among us who, due to poor judgment, mental illness or substance abuse may be physically violent. Most fights in the absence of a weapon are not fatal.

The true victim was the mentally ill man who had a death sentence meted out by his executioner.

Are we as a society more secure knowing that armed citizens making snap judgments are our first defense against physical violence rather than a last option?

— Brian L. Grant, M.D. (psychiatry), Seattle

In rebuttal, the following letter appeared in today's Seattle Times:

October 16, 2006

Death takes a hand

Dr. Brian L. Grant (psychiatry) suggests people shouldn't be armed to defend themselves against attack because "most fights in the absence of weapons are not fatal" ["Stopping power: Having no firearm, man might resort to instinctive wisdom," Northwest Voices, Oct. 13].

While this may be a true statement, I'm curious which nonfatal injuries he would have his family endure for the sake of a mentally ill person or drug-crazed lunatic? Would a smashed face from a fist requiring multiple surgeries suffice?

Possibly a head injury or ruptured spleen from a good kick would be enough.

As a physician, I too have seen the direct consequences of street fights without weapons. You don't need a gun or knife to inflict death or grievous, life-long harm to another person. What is your limit?

— Rod Xuereb, M.D. (anesthesiology), Bellevue

The logic used in the rebuttal is quite effective, IMO.

NineseveN

October 16, 2006, 01:46 PM

Awesome reply from the second doctor. I like it becasue it is directly to the point and focuses on the main issue at hand instead of making broad strokes with the gun advocacy brush.

Henry Bowman

October 16, 2006, 02:13 PM

The true victim was the mentally ill man who had a death sentence meted out by his executioner.Stuck on stupid.

KC&97TA

October 16, 2006, 04:07 PM

This is a perfect example of why I like "make my day" laws. It's truely sad that some people would rather cower in fear and run from a crazy nut cake, I'd rather fight, instead of run. In this case undue physical violence is meet with CCW. I hope the true victim here, "the shooter", has a back up gun for the gun the police will hold till the investigation is over with.

Takeing a mans life is no jokeing matter, but I'd rather kill a random 'bad guy' than have my nose broke, or even be given bruised knuckles by beating some pile of crap.

strambo

October 17, 2006, 03:26 AM

Leaving the area, or using less-lethal methods of defense are often preferable, as well as much cheaper.
Since he was punched and kicked...I think it safe to assume he wasn't very good and/or was failing at less lethal means (unless you think he deliberately took some blows waiting for justification to shoot?). If you are knocked down (thus immobilized) how can you leave the area? I can't imagine this man wouldn't have taken the 1st available opportunity to get away from this nutjob whether he was attacked or not. I don't think he had any opportunity at all.

As the good Dr. said above, a ruptured spleen can be quite traumatic as well as a fractured skull on the concrete. Furthermore, at least one article said the crazy stated he was going to kill the victim. His big mistake was saying "I did this" to the police...should have said "I was in fear for my life, I have a permit" and left it at that.

c_yeager

October 17, 2006, 03:18 PM

The true victim was the mentally ill man who had a death sentence meted out by his executioner.

I think the actual victim in this situation is the entire population which was failed by their government when this man was allowed to run the street. The shooter should sue the state for putting him in a position where he had to take the man's life.

Gaucho Gringo

October 17, 2006, 04:20 PM

I think the problem is that almost all mental health "experts" tend to live in their own insulated world makiing their profound statements. They have no idea of the real world. I would bet the second doctor works in ER and sees this kind of thing everyday.
As far as the mentally ill, I think they should all be locked up in an institution and not let out until they are not a threat to themselves or others. This is the way it used to be until the 70's and the "experts" let them all out. Never used to have problems like this in the 50's & 60's when I was growing up. Right now I feel the most unsafe that I have ever felt in my life. Becauase of physical problems there is no way I can either run or defend myself now outside of a handgun. I have had long guns & shotguns since I was 13 but no handguns up until now. I now have 2 and will be buying a few more. Also I will be applying for a CCW permit. I never used to give it a second thouight until age and disabilities have forced me to reveiw my options.

PlayboyPenguin

October 17, 2006, 05:45 PM

As far as the mentally ill, I think they should all be locked up in an institution and not let out until they are not a threat to themselves or others. This is the way it used to be until the 70's and the "experts" let them all out
I am not sure what you are meaning by "experts" but I hate to break it to you. It wasn't "experts" that let these people out. They weren't even "let out". They were forced out, despite strong protests by the experts, by massive budget cuts under Reagan in the early 80's.

Monkeyleg

October 17, 2006, 06:40 PM

Maybe the good doctor who's second-guessing the permit holder should read this:

Milwaukee's 90th homicide victim of the year has been identified as Gabriel O. Lyons, 21, who apparently died of injuries he suffered in a fight on the south side over the weekend, police spokeswoman Anne E. Schwartz said this morning.

She said at about 4:30 a.m. Saturday, Lyons and a group of friends met another group of people in the 1500 block of W. Arthur St., where a fight ensued and Lyons was punched. He then went home and went to sleep, Schwartz said, and was later found unconscious and later pronounced dead.

An autopsy is being conducted to determine the cause of death. Police are seeking three suspects in connection with the case, she said.
There had been 99 homicides in Milwaukee at this date last year.

*****

Not all punches result in just a bloody nose.

MudPuppy

October 17, 2006, 06:56 PM

So, according to the good Doctor Brian Grant, since rapes aren't usually fatal a woman should instead endure the assault rather than resort to deadly force.

This guy is beyond stupid.

I can feel for the challenges for the mentally ill, but when you assault someone--whether the motive is greed, insanity, or racism--citizens must have the right end the assault.

cassandrasdaddy

October 17, 2006, 08:13 PM

"I am not sure what you are meaning by "experts" but I hate to break it to you. It wasn't "experts" that let these people out. They weren't even "let out". They were forced out, despite strong protests by the experts, by massive budget cuts under Reagan in the early 80's."

the penguin got that right St Elizabeths in Dc had 1/2 its population hit the street. on monday a couple thousand folks too crazy for the world. on wednesday they are cured on the street

crunker

October 17, 2006, 08:19 PM

How could one possibly consider this unjustified?

He was in imminent danger, he was physically attacked, he was legally packing, and it's not like he wasted a 30-magazine from an AK-pistol, he fired one shot that happened to kill the aggressor.

c_yeager

October 19, 2006, 03:53 PM

How could one possibly consider this unjustified?

He was in imminent danger, he was physically attacked, he was legally packing, and it's not like he wasted a 30-magazine from an AK-pistol, he fired one shot that happened to kill the aggressor.

The only person who has come out against the justification is some quack in a letter to the editor. The overwhelming opinion here (on the board and in Seattle) is that it is an open-and-shut case of self defense. Good thing there were plenty of witnesses or the story might be different.

p35

October 19, 2006, 11:11 PM

On principle, the guy should have refused to say anything. OTOH, after they interviewed him the cops said "We don't think you committed a crime, go home." Hard to knock his decision on that outcome.

Under Washington law, the burden is on the State to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it wasn't self defense. Also, if the State loses, it has to pay the defendant's attorney's fees and lost wages from work, if any. Good reason not to charge a case like this.

MillCreek

October 20, 2006, 04:07 PM

In today's (10/20/06) edition of the Seattle Times, there is a story about Danny Culotti, the individual who started the incident down at Westlake Center. It can be found here:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003313826_culotti20m.html

According to his family, it is a story of a bright young man and his descent into madness with the onset of schizophrenia in his late teens. A sad story for the family.

armedcitizen

October 20, 2006, 04:14 PM

The most bizarre aspect of the incident is that Lyndon LaRouche still has people willing to pass out literature for him.

CornCod

October 20, 2006, 04:26 PM

The defenders of Culotti are foolish. It appears he got what he deserved. However, I hope that readers of this board don't take the wrong lesson away from this incident by endorsing the commonly held view that most of the mentally ill people walking the streets are dangerous. Most of them are harmless. They should be treated will caution, but armed people should not automatically go into "condition red" when dealing with "crazies."

kungfuhippie

October 20, 2006, 04:55 PM

I just read the story from The seatle times "Family remembers Culotti as loving, charming"

It is sad that he was aflicted with mental illness, I wish he had gotten better care. But I really must ask some questions since the family in their grief are blaming the vicitm. (I understand, that's normal for loved ones in their pain to point the finger)

1. Why is a parolee, arsen, with mental illness that he doesn't treat and drug and alcohol problems looked on as the victim in the altercation? It took him several choices to get there. To not take his medicine, to do drugs, to abuse alcohol. Yes he was in a bad mental state and at that point had lost control. And I know I'll get flamed for this, but he could have taken his medicine, stayed away from drugs, gotten a job...

2. There are people with schizophrenia and other mental illnesses that take there meds, and are productive members of society. It is a choice, he knew he had problems from his teens, even confessing to his father, "I think I'm crazy, you know?"

3. Where's his family? I'm guessing when he burned down mom's daycare with kids inside they didn't want anything to do with him. Oh, that's right, they moved across the country. But then they said at the funeral that when Danny's parol time was up they would send for him to come to New York?

4. How does a mentally ill person who burned down a daycare get out early? Doesn't trying to kill "demons" in a daycare cancel out any time off for good behavior. Where's the government? (thought I'd never ask that) That's their only real job, to protect the people!

Yes, it's a tragedy. I know Danny wasn't in his right mind, and had he not been ill probably been a good member of society. I wish he had not died, not as much as the shooter wishes he hadn't died. Knowing I had to kill a man. But he did, and that was what it took for the victim to protect his own life. Maybe instead of just talking we should try and get our politicians to make the streets safer by spending all that money they've been wasting on (too much to list), and reopen mental hospitals to treat these poor in our society.

Vern Smalley

October 20, 2006, 05:18 PM

Having personally killed an assailant a number of years ago, and thinking about it nearly every day since, I would not wish the after effects on anybody.

In the discussion of what the shooter should have done, I'd recommend pulling out your concealed weapon, yelling out "Stand back or I'll kill you," and using the heavy-frame revolver as a club if that failed. Once you pull that trigger, it's a whole new world, people. And I could tell you stories about our news media that would make a maggot vomit.

Vern Smalley

MillCreek

October 20, 2006, 08:20 PM

There are people with schizophrenia and other mental illnesses that take there meds, and are productive members of society. It is a choice, he knew he had problems from his teens, even confessing to his father, "I think I'm crazy, you know?"

Speaking as someone who works in healthcare, it is very common for people with a number of mental illnesses (psychoses, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, the list goes on) to stop taking their meds. The usual pattern is they start off very diligently taking their meds. They start to feel better after a while, and without the necessary support system, start to think that they don't need meds after all, and they stop taking them. They then start to decompensate, and very often, end up on the street or emergency department needing to be hospitalized so they can get the necessary medications. Once they are stable, they are discharged and the cycle begins again.

In Washington state, the family members are almost helpless to try and force treatment on an adult patient. The patient has to be adjudged a danger to themselves or others before they can be hospitalized against their will. Unfortunately, many patients die before they get to this stage. We cynically call this 'dying with your rights on'.

Very, very sad, and but for the Grace of God and a small change in our neurochemistry, any one of us could be one of those patients.

p35

October 20, 2006, 08:33 PM

FWIW, a lot of mentally ill people are very intelligent. Seems to be part of the haywire function of their brains.

I deal every day with mentally ill people who want help. The publicly funded mental health agencies in this state are a joke, mainly because the mentally ill don't vote and end up at the bottom of the priority list for funding (maybe ahead of us public defenders, but that's a different issue). Counselors in those agencies often make close to minimum wage, and the competent ones go into private practice as soon as they get the chance. Don't get me started on how hard it is to get someone committed for treatment if they don't want to go... Hell, I have a mentally ill son, and even with good health insurance it's been a struggle to get him the treatment he needs. God knows where my family would be if we had to depend on public funding.

No one but one psychiatrist (and most I've known are as screwy as their patients) is calling this guy a victim. OTOH, it is a tragedy that everyone could see this coming and didn't get ahead of the situation before someone had to shoot him in self defense. Bad scene all around.

rwc

October 21, 2006, 12:23 AM

I spent a while representing the state in civil commitment hearings back when I was a WA AAG. Most of these folks are just very sad cases. But a handful keep you up at night...

One of the unintended consequences of the de-institutionalization movement that started back in the 70's is that these folks now have the right to die on the street just like everyone else. No one wants to admit (or advocate) that there is a significant subset of the mentally ill who do best, and are more likely to live longer, in an institutional setting.

This would require some significant changes in the law and moving away from the current 6 month cycle of judicial review is a political non-starter in Olympia.