Card. Ricard: “the prayer could be changed if it caused difficulties with Jews”

Let’s go back to His Excellency Reverendissmo Mons. Luca Brandolini, Bishop of Sora-Aquino-Pontecorvo. I tip my biretta to Diogenes for the additional article. o{]:¬\

My emphases and comments.

Sun Jul 8, 2007 4:46PM BST

By Silvia Aloisi

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) – A decree by Pope Benedict allowing priests to say the old Latin Mass more frequently has drawn criticism within Catholic and Jewish ranks, with one Italian bishop saying he was "in mourning".

The decree, a nod to traditionalists which the Pope said was meant to heal divisions within the Church, was regarded by some as a blow to reforms introduced in the 1960s that promoted mass in local languages and understanding with non-Catholics.

"I can’t fight back the tears. This is the saddest moment in my life as a man, priest and bishop," Luca Brandolini, a member of the liturgy commission of the Italian bishops’ conference, told Rome daily La Repubblica in an interview on Sunday.

"It’s a day of mourning, not just for me but for the many people who worked for the Second Vatican Council. A reform for which many people worked, with great sacrifice and only inspired by the desire to renew the Church, has now been cancelled."

The Pope, in a letter to bishops on Saturday, rejected criticism that his move could split Catholics and reverse the reforms of the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965).

Some Jewish leaders have sharply criticised the decree, which revives a passage from the old Latin prayer book for Good Friday calling for Jews to be converted. Others, however, took a more measured tone and called for clarification.

"I think there are those who have interpreted it in an extremely alarmist fashion," Rabbi David Rosen of the American Jewish Committee (AJC) told Reuters.

"That doesn’t mean that there aren’t things that need clarification but there is no question of Pope Benedict’s commitment to respectful relations with the Jewish people." [Can I believe my eyes? Reporter that didn’t just follow the other lemmings?]

POPE SILENT

The AJC’s Rome representative, Lisa Palmieri-Billig, said the text of the decree was ambiguous on the issue. Church officials however had no doubt the prayer could now be said in certain circumstances, even if its use would probably be rare. [Wait. If it were wrong to say that prayer, it shouldn’t be said even rarely. And the circumstances under which it can be said are going to be growing.]

"I find it difficult to believe that the Pope would permit the Good Friday prayer, it could be a communication mistake," Palmieri-Billig said. [Runnin’ with the lemmings again, I see.]

"Conversion is a very sensitive issue for Jews and if the prayer is allowed, it would be a step backwards for dialogue."

French Cardinal Jean-Pierre Ricard said on Saturday the prayer could be changed if it caused difficulties with Jews.[Need I say it?]

Defending the decree, Colombian Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, who is trying to heal the rift with the traditionalists’ main flag-bearer, the schismatic Society of Saint Pius X, said it opened the door for their return and "I wouldn’t understand if they don’t come back." [He wouldn’t understand it? Really?]

However the group, which claims one million members, said on Saturday it had to iron out doctrinal differences with the Vatican before a reconciliation could take place.

The decree, possibly the most important of Benedict’s papacy so far, was issued on a summer weekend without the publicity that normally accompanies key documents. [Accattoli was right.]

The Pope did not mention it in his weekly Angelus blessing on Sunday and will retreat to the Dolomites mountains on Monday to start his summer holidays.

The Vatican will issue another text on Tuesday expected to declare Roman Catholicism the only true church of Jesus Christ, a statement that could anger Protestants. [You can almost hear the saliva drip drip dripping on the keyboards.]

Other Christian churches criticised Rome in 2000 when it issued a similar document signed by the Pope, who was then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger and the top defender of Church dogma.

23 Responses to Card. Ricard: “the prayer could be changed if it caused difficulties with Jews”

So it seems what people are really upset about is Church doctrine concerning the role of the Church in salvation, and they’re angry that the Pope is promoting a liturgy that unabashedly sets forth that doctrine in its prayers.

I think a lot of people seem to think, if people stop being taught certain doctrines, they’ll eventually go away. So if people stop praying for the conversion of the Jews, then eventually the Church will teach that Jews are already saved.

The entire issue raises a lot of questions about ecumenical dialoque with the Jews, and begs the question, if dialogue with non-Christians isn’t about bringing such groups closer to Christ, what’s the point? Ecumenism with non-Christians, I believe, is supposed to be more than just maintaining friendly relations and making people feel like their just fine right where they are.

Most of the complaints printed in the press have been about the prayer for conversion that exists in the 1962 version. A few news stories have stated (incorrectly) that the “perfidious” would still be there.

Regarding the Latin: yes, the prayer was “pro perfidis Iudaeis”, but if you are going to refer to this phrase without the preposition you would switch it to the nominative “perfidi Iudaei”. But of course, even better would be “illi Iudaei, dilecti a Deo, seniores fratri nostri”!

I thought that John XXIII removed the perfidious comment from his missal but it was still permitted to be used. I have been to at least one Traditional Good Friday Mass that retained the prayer. To add insult to injury (tongue in cheek as I don’t believe there is anything wrong with the prayer) it is said in the middle of a large number of prayers praying for conversions, and you genuflect during each stage except in the prayer for the conversion of the Jews (because the Jews knelt in mockery of Christ). It seems fitting to me to retain the prayers as we are praying for the conversion of all those whom Christ died for on the day in which we remember His death.

Jamie said: I have been to at least one Traditional Good Friday Mass that retained the prayer.

It’s not in the 1962 Missal, which is the edition authorised for use, but some traditionalist priests have incorrectly been using older editions of the Missal.

As for not kneeling at that point, it was the Roman soldiers who knelt in mockery of Jesus, not the Jews. I think it is more likely that the not kneeling when praying for the Jews has to do with the old “teaching of contempt,” in which the Jewish people’s rejection of their own Messiah is seen as such an enormity that a prayer for their conversion is seen as something that God might not be very likely to listen to. Thus, the prayer says that we pray “even for the Jews.” “Yes, folks, it’s hard to believe, but even Jews can be saved.” That sort of attitude is something the Church is well to be rid of. I still prefer the older prayer for the conversion of the Jewish people, since it is clearer and more direct than the new prayer, but the “even for the Jews” stuff is still a bit problematic.

But then, folks like Abe Foxman would be upset about any prayer that directly asked God to bring the Jewish people into the Catholic Church. For them it’s not just the “perfidious Jews” and “even for the Jews” terminology that is offensive — even more, it’s simply the claim that all men, even Jews, are called to enter the Catholic Church that is the most offensive thing. It’s the claim that Jesus is their Messiah that they don’t like to hear.

Jordan Potter writes:Itâ€™s not in the 1962 Missal, which is the edition authorised for use, but some traditionalist priests have incorrectly been using older editions of the Missal.

In some cases priests are using older Missals because that is what is they have on hand. Why get rid of a Missal? If the changes aren’t too extensive, one can just make annotations on an older one. Throwing liturgical goods away (and I’m sure you’re not advocating this, Jordan) is a thoroughly modern idea. (I despise the fact that so many parishes make use of disposable missalettes which are thrown out whenever the liturgical season changes.)

Also, some orders (the Institute of Christ the King, for example) have permission to use the pre-Pius XII Holy Week rites. I assume this would include the older Prayer for the Jews, but someone who assists at ICRSS Masses would have to confirm that.

I once assisted at a Good Friday Mass of the Presanctified where the priest started to say the Prayer for the Conversion of the Jews and said “perfidis”. He stopped, collected himself, and started over. I don’t know if it’s because the topic was on his mind and he slipped, or because he was using an older Missal. This would have been in 2002 or 2003.

It seems to me that a phrase like “even the Jews” implies that the Jews are less worthy of salvation than the other non-Catholics mentioned. Why would this be? It would seem to go against Nastra Aetate for two reasons: it is holding the Jewish people culpable for the death of Christ making them less worthy of Christ’s mercy, and extemds this culpability to the modern Jews for whom it prays. Definitely a dillema here.

Anyone else have another explanation for why we pray, “even the Jew” instead of just “the Jews”?

dcs: Also, some orders (the Institute of Christ the King, for example) have permission to use the pre-Pius XII Holy Week rites. I assume this would include the older Prayer for the Jews, but someone who assists at ICRSS Masses would have to confirm that.

As has been said, the issue isn’t to do with the physical book that’s on the altar, it’s to do with the words the priest actually says; it’s perfectly possible to annotate an older volume, or simply remember the amendments. It is true that there are priests who forget or “forget” to change the relevant couple of words on Good Friday. There is no doubt that the form of Holy Week presently authorized for use under the Ecclesia Dei/Summorum Pontificum regime excludes these words.

As to the ICRSS having “permission” to use the pre-1955 forms: I wonder. The Commission may have given them somethnig analogous to what they have given the French abbeys, but their authority to do that has hitherto been dubious. I have even heard it said that they rely on “Quo Primum” for their authority to do this!

The Holy Father may perhaps now give the Commission more explicit faculties in this area, as Summorum indicates. Certainly, most traditionalists that I know feel that the Pius XII reforms are largely misguided in ways that closely prefigure later reforms. It is quite possible that the Holy See may now be generous in granting the use of the traditional Holy Week ceremonies, in the interests of making more of the Church’s historical treasures available for use, but there is no reason why that could not be done with the sole exception of the changed prayer for the Jews.

“Etiam” means both “even” and “also.” I would certainly render it “also” in this context! (Also, incidentally, in the context where “Summorum” says that the readings may be read “etiam” in the vernacular…)

As to Father’s question on the Institute: I have no idea whether they have permission for what they do. They do certainly use the pre-1955 Holy Week services in large part, as the photographs on their website show. I believe they don’t use them in full (not all twelve prophecies, for example). However, I don’t know whether they use the unamended text of the prayer for the Jews. I imagine that they might now consider using Bd. John XXIII’s form of that in the light of recent events!

I would really appreciate it if someone could somewhere post the full text of all the 1962 Good Friday intercessions. Yesterday, I found (in Wikipedia) the (alleged) text of the 1955 intercessions for heretics and schismatics, Jews, and pagans. If anything, the prayer for the Jews was the least…er…possibly offensive..

In my 1964 Roman Missal (which is the “hybrid Mass” and, I think, is basically the 1962 Missal with some English), the text says “Oremus et pro Iudaeis…” (“Let et us also pray for the Jews …”)

Unfortunately, all my other “traditional” texts are pre 1962 and all say “Iudaeis perfidis”.
Of course, when it comes to Jesus Christ, even a Jew would have to admit they don’t believe in Him (in His divinity).

But then another question is: if the 1962 Missal doesn’t have “Iudaeis perfidis,” why would bishops be so foolish as to open their mouths without checking first? It just makes them look even more foolish once they are easily shown to be wrong and would pretty much discredit any future observations by Their Excellencies.

Funny how these bishops rail against “blind faith” to these texts, but then expect it when they themselves say something.

But then another question is: if the 1962 Missal doesnâ€™t have â€œIudaeis perfidis,â€ why would bishops be so foolish as to open their mouths without checking first? It just makes them look even more foolish once they are easily shown to be wrong and would pretty much discredit any future observations by Their Excellencies.

I think the comment a few days ago about a teenager making various excuses for not doing things is operative here. Many have become fat, dumb, and happy in the present situation and don’t want to change.

One other point: The Jews’ problem is not only with the Christian faith. Although it’s not explicit, the NT all but says that a Jew who rejects the Messiah also rejects Israel.

(The Vatican will issue another text on Tuesday expected to declare Roman Catholicism the only true church of Jesus Christ, a statement that could anger Protestants. [You can almost hear the saliva drip drip dripping on the keyboards.]
I cut and pasted this comment. My reaction is “Hooray for Pope Benedict XVI” if this document is published too. After all, it is true, NO?
As for the reaction of others who might take offense,and become indignant , we should not care.
I can here their hissy fits already.
Boo Hoo !! : )

Johannes,
I hate to say it, but I think part of the motivation behind objecting to this prayers is that the Jews, or their leaders at least, prefer to see themselves as victims of the larger sociey even when they aren’t. Look for example at Pius XII. No man did more to help the Jews than he, and yet holocaust museums and all my Jewish aquaintences insist on calling him a Nazi. What other reason would they have for denying objective, historical facts to make the man look evil.

Fr. Z – The MP permits use of the old missals with one important note – “may do so on any day with the exception of the Easter Triduum”. Given that the ‘questionable’ prayer is on Good Friday, doesn’t this whole issue seem to be an enormous red herring?

With due respect to all of you that have commented thus far, I prefer to focus on the words and quite possibly the hubris of Msgr. Brandolini,

“”Itâ€™s a day of mourning, not just for me but for the many people who worked for the Second Vatican Council. A reform for which many people worked, with great sacrifice and only inspired by the desire to renew the Church, has now been cancelled”

Where has the dear Bishop been lo these 40 years? Renewal is one thing, skipping down the garden path to perdition is another. The Church has lost a great deal while the experimenters had their day. I recall the post Vatican II “spirit” and chaos here in the States back in the Sixteis and Seventies, with the 80’s and 90’s being only marginally better. And this Bishop can stand their and weep for a mismanaged reform, which in many cases was carried out by vindictive and elitest cadres of what amounted to raving Iconoclasts and Modernists?

I remember the feeling of loss and abandonment after V II, I wish that I could have shared it with the Bishop then, perhaps it would mitigate his feelings today to have experienced what many of us experienced and lost.

All I can say is Deo Gratia for the gift we have been given this 7 July and three cheers for Good Pope Benedict.

Search Fr. Z’s Blog

Search for:

BACK TO SCHOOL SHOPPING? Please, come here first!

Enter Amazon through my search box and I will get a small percentage of what you spend. (Pssst - Can't see the search box? Turn off your "ad-blocker" for this site!)Amazon.com WidgetsPS: I added Amazon Search Boxes for the UK and for Canada at the bottom of the blog page. Copy and paste titles I mention into those boxes and - BAZINGA! - results appear as if by magic.
Kindle? HERE

“This blog is like a fusion of the Baroque ‘salon’ with its well-tuned harpsichord around which polite society gathered for entertainment and edification and, on the other hand, a Wild West “saloon” with its out-of-tune piano and swinging doors, where everyone has a gun and something to say. Nevertheless, we try to point our discussions back to what it is to be Catholic in this increasingly difficult age, to love God, and how to get to heaven.” – Fr. Z

Some words of wisdom…

The more vigorously the primacy was displayed, the more the question came up about the extent and and limits of [papal] authority, which of course, as such, had never been considered. After the Second Vatican Council, the impression arose that the pope really could do anything in liturgical matters, especially if he were acting on the mandate of an ecumenical council. Eventually, the idea of the givenness of the liturgy, the fact that one cannot do with it what one will, faded from the public consciousness of the West. In fact, the First Vatican Council had in no way defined the pope as an absolute monarch. On the contrary, it presented him as the guarantor of obedience to the revealed Word. The pope's authority is bound to the Tradition of faith. … The authority of the pope is not unlimited; it is at the service of Sacred Tradition.

CLICK and say your Daily Offering!

"We as Catholics have not properly combated (the culture) because we have not been taught our Catholic Faith, especially in the depth needed to address these grave evils of our time. This is a failure of catechesis both of children and young people that has been going on for fifty years. It is being addressed, but it needs much more radical attention... What has also contributed greatly to the situation is an exaltation of the virtue of tolerance which is falsely seen as the virtue which governs all other virtues. In other words, we should tolerate other people in their immoral actions to the extent that we seem also to accept the moral wrong. Tolerance is a virtue, but it is certainly not the principal virtue; the principal virtue is charity... Charity means speaking the truth. I have encountered it (not speaking the truth) many times myself as a priest and bishop. It is something we simply need to address. There is far too much silence — people do not want to talk about it because the topic is not 'politically correct.' But we cannot be silent any longer."

Help Monks in Wyoming (coffee) and Norcia (beer)!

出る杭は打たれ!

Without you, there is no blog.

There is a subscription form at the bottom of this page!

Aedificantium enim unusquisque gladio erat accinctus.

- Nehemiah 4:18

"Where priest and people together face the same way, what we have is a cosmic orientation and also in interpretation of the Eucharist in terms of resurrection and trinitarian theology. Hence it is also an interpretation in terms of parousia, a theology of hope, in which every Mass is an approach to the return of Christ."

"In those situations where homosexual unions have been legally recognized or have been given the legal status and rights belonging to marriage, clear and emphatic opposition is a duty. ... If all Catholics are obliged to oppose the legal recognition of homosexual unions, Catholic politicians are obliged to do so in a particular way, in keeping with their responsibility as politicians." CDF 2003

One of the most dangerous errors is that civilization is automatically bound to increase and spread. The lesson of history is the opposite; civilization is a rarity, attained with difficulty and easily lost. The normal state of humanity is barbarism, just as the normal surface of the planet is salt water. Land looms large in our imagination and civilization in history books, only because sea and savagery are to us less interesting.
— C. S. Lewis

For contemplation…

"Latin is a precise, essential language. It will be abandoned, not because it is unsuitable for the new requirements of progress, but because the new men will not be suitable for it. When the age of demagogues and charlatans begins, a language like Latin will no longer be useful, and any oaf will be able to give a speech in public and talk in such a way that he will not be kicked off the stage. The secret to this will consist in the fact that, by making use of words that are general, elusive, and sound good, he will be able to speak for an hour without saying anything. With Latin, this is impossible."

- - Giovanni Guareschi

Support them with prayer and fasting.

Click for Car Magnets

Help the Sisters. They have a building project. Get great soap (gifts, etc.) while helping REAL nuns!

Some OBLIGATORY reading…

Leave Voice Mail for Fr. Z

Nota bene: I do not answer these numbers or this Skype address. You won't get me "live". I check for messages regularly.

WDTPRS

020 8133 4535

651-447-6265

Let us pray…

Grant unto thy Church, we beseech
Thee, O merciful God, that She, being
gathered together by the Holy Ghost, may
be in no wise troubled by attack from her
foes.
O God, who by sin art offended and by
penance pacified, mercifully regard the
prayers of Thy people making supplication
unto Thee,and turn away the scourges of
Thine anger which we deserve for our sins.
Almighty and Everlasting God, in
whose Hand are the power and the
government of every realm: look down upon
and help the Christian people that the heathen
nations who trust in the fierceness of their
own might may be crushed by the power of
thine Arm. Through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Thy Son, who liveth and reigneth with Thee
in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God, world
without end. R. Amen.

Check out the Cardinal Newman Society feed!

Yes, Fr. Z is taking ads…

A great hymnal…

Mystic Monk Coffee also has TEA!

Because it matters what children read…

I carry one of these super-strong rosaries in my spare mag pouch! The Swiss Guards have them too!

The Swiss Guard have these rosaries!For the story clickHERE and HERE (esp. 18:00)

Because you don’t know when you are going to need to move fast or get along without the supermarket…

My wish lists

Main Wishlist Kindle WishlistAudio WishlistHam Radio ListNEW

Food For Thought

“The legalization of the termination of pregnancy is none other than the authorization given to an adult, with the approval of an established law, to take the lives of children yet unborn and thus incapable of defending themselves. It is difficult to imagine a more unjust situation, and it is very difficult to speak of obsession in a matter such as this, where we are dealing with a fundamental imperative of every good conscience — the defense of the right to life of an innocent and defenseless human being.”

For your consideration…

"One of the most dangerous errors is that civilization is automatically bound to increase and spread. The lesson of history is the opposite; civilization is a rarity, attained with difficulty and easily lost. The normal state of humanity is barbarism, just as the normal surface of the planet is salt water. Land looms large in our imagination and civilization in history books, only because sea and savagery are to us less interesting."

- C.S. Lewis

More food for thought:

“I expect to die in bed, my successor will die in prison and his successor will die a martyr in the public square. His successor will pick up the shards of a ruined society and slowly help rebuild civilization, as the church has done so often in human history.”

Francis Card. George

Fr. Z’s stuff is everywhere

Please follow me on Twitter!

Help support Fr. Z’s Gospel of Life work at no cost to you. Do you need a Real Estate Agent? Calling these people is the FIRST thing you should do!

They find you a pro-life agent in your area who commits to giving a portion of the fee to a pro-life group!

"It will never be known what acts of cowardice have been committed for fear of not looking sufficiently progressive."

Charles Pierre PéguyNotre Patrie, 1905

"If I ought to write the truth, I am of the mind that I ought to flee all meetings of bishops, because I have never seen any happy or satisfactory outcome to any council, nor one that has deterred evils more than it has occasioned their acceptance and growth."

St. Gregory Nazianzus
ep. 131 - AD 382

“We will conquer your Rome, break your crosses, and enslave your women. If we do not reach that time, then our children and grandchildren will reach it, and they will sell your sons as slaves at the slave market.”

Reading and gift ideas!

READER DONATIONS FROM…

To set up a recurring, monthly donation via PAYPAL (even a small one) go to the bottom of this blog and look for the drop down menu! If you prefer, I also have a clearXchange account. Do you want yet another alternative to PayPal? I have set up an account with
CONTINUE TO GIVE
Get a link to donate via CONTINUE TO GIVE using your smart phone.
SEND MESSAGE:
4827563
TO:
715-803-4772
They take a larger percent taste, but they are an alternative.

I remember benefactors in my prayers and periodically say Mass for your intention.

This catechism helped to bring Fr. Z into the Catholic Church!

Be a “Zed-Head”!

Fathers, you don’t know who might show up! It could be a “big fish” of one sort or other…

And... GO TO CONFESSION!

“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”

What people say…

"Rev. John Zuhlsdorf, a traditionalist blogger who has never shied from picking fights with priests, bishops or cardinals when liturgical abuses are concerned."

- Kractivism

"Father John Zuhlsdorf is a crank"
"Father Zuhlsdorf drives me crazy"
"the hate-filled Father John Zuhlsford" [sic]
"Father John Zuhlsdorf, the right wing priest who has a penchant for referring to NCR as the 'fishwrap'"

- Michael Sean Winters

"Fr Z is a true phenomenon of the information age: a power blogger and a priest."

- Anna Arco

“Given that Rorate Coeli and Shea are mad at Fr. Z, I think it proves Fr. Z knows what he is doing and he is right.”

- Comment

"Let me be clear. Fr. Z is a shock jock, mostly. His readership is vast and touchy. They like to be provoked and react with speed and fury."

- Sam Rocha

"Father Z’s Blog is a bright star on a cloudy night."

- Comment

"A cross between Kung Fu Panda and Wolverine."

- Anonymous

Fr. Z is officially a hybrid of Gandalf and Obi-Wan XD

- Comment

Rev. John Zuhlsdorf, a scrappy blogger popular with the Catholic right.

Support Military Chaplains!

Click to donate

Food For Thought

“Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition to put moral chains upon their own appetites. . . . Society cannot exist unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere; and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things, that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters.”

Canadian Amazon Search Box

More stuff…

Archives

ENTRY CALENDAR

Do you use my blog often? Is it helpful to you?

If so, please consider subscribing to send a monthly donation. That way I have steady income I can plan on, and you wind up regularly on my list of benefactors for whom I pray and for whom I periodically say Holy Mass.

Some options

Admin Stuff

The opinions expressed on this blog do not necessarily reflect the positions of any of the Catholic Church's entities with which I am involved. They are my own. Opinions expressed by commentators in the comments belong to the commentators.