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The color genetics in our breed are so simple compared to most... it really is something you should understand BEFORE breeding. I agree that the blueknights site is very user friendly.

Yes, comparitively speaking, and in most instances it is "so simple."

I think I understand the basic genetics of coat color in the LR, that determined by the B, b, E and e alleles, thoroughly; but sometimes this may not be enough.

I have a 2+ year old black LR from a black (BBEE per Vetgen) x black (BBEe or BbEe per breeding results) breeding. His undercoat fur is brown and some guard hair (in the area where the upper and lower lips meet) shows a reddish brown tint. This isn't so easy for me to figure.

I found a hint, maybe, at the vetgen site: http://vetgen.com/canine-coat-color.html where they show a pathway to solid black or brown color through the various K and A alleles. I wondering if this is what I'm seeing in this pup. Any one have any ideas? I presume this color anomaly is NOT very common in black Labs but folks here have seen many more than I.

I have a 2+ year old black LR from a black (BBEE per Vetgen) x black (BBEe or BbEe per breeding results) breeding. His undercoat fur is brown and some guard hair (in the area where the upper and lower lips meet) shows a reddish brown tint.

Is his undercoat brown at all times or just when he's about to blow coat? I have a couple blacks here that get quite red/brown when their dead coat is coming out. Is he outside all day? The color by his lips is more than likely "stained" from being wet, just as you'd see in a lighter colored dog.

Concentration or shade of yellow (or chocolate for that matter) IS more difficult to understand, but the overall picture of black, yellow, chocolate is easy peasy

Is his undercoat brown at all times or just when he's about to blow coat? I have a couple blacks here that get quite red/brown when their dead coat is coming out. Is he outside all day? The color by his lips is more than likely "stained" from being wet, just as you'd see in a lighter colored dog.

Concentration or shade of yellow (or chocolate for that matter) IS more difficult to understand, but the overall picture of black, yellow, chocolate is easy peasy

The undercoat is brown all year long, all the time, brown from skin to ends and distinctly different from the black hair. Once you've seen it, the brown cast is quite noticeable on his back and sides. He's an inside dog, spends no long periods outside (in the sun) on a day to day basis except when we're on long hunting trips. His water work is very infrequent. I think the reddish/brown by the lips is real, but can't prove that without some chemistry I don't think I'll do or have done - yet. Apparently his dam and a sister are similarly "marked." I may shave a patch of hair and separate the two parts sometime to get a picture. I do have some photos of the face area. I'm looking for a spectrophotometer to use to analyse the color but there are not any out here in the woods!

The undercoat is brown all year long, all the time, brown from skin to ends and distinctly different from the black hair.

Jere

Does he carry yellow? The red hair could be an expression of the e gene, if you only got one e it still expresses although not as much as a ee which would be a yellow dog. The black covers the e but if it;s there it's still expressing the red (phanosomething) coloration. A reddish sheen to the hair can be an indication that the dog carries yellow. EX just sent out color testing on 2 pups, one solid black, one has a reddish sheen, result came back as I expected, solid black (no e), reddish sheen (carries e yellow), their mother also carries it but she's only red in certain light and when she blow her coat.

"They's Just DAWGS"
"Hunting is a skill to be learned whether you do it early or late it still needs to be learned"
"I train dogs, Not papers"

Does he carry yellow? The red hair could be an expression of the e gene, if you only got one e it still expresses although not as much as a ee which would be a yellow dog. The black covers the e but if it;s there it's still expressing the red (phanosomething) coloration. A reddish sheen to the hair can be an indication that the dog carries yellow. EX just sent out color testing on 2 pups, one solid black, one has a reddish sheen, result came back as I expected, solid black (no e), reddish sheen (carries e yellow), their mother also carries it but she's only red in certain light and when she blow her coat.

I don't know the answer to that - yet. The dam does. A full sister recently bred to a yellow produced 6 yellow pups of various shades and two blacks. So he could carry yellow. There's no evidence yet that I'm aware of that any chocolate (b) is there.

Is the reddish sheen you're seeing on the guard hair, the undercoat or both? I'm wondering if the brown folks see when the black dog "blows its coat" is really brown underfur that isn't noticed until it is coming out with coat change? I that case this may be more common in Labs. than commonly thought.

The brownish color I'm seeing on this dog's body is from the brown underfur not the guard hair. This difference between the guard hair and undercoat colors is what has me stumped. I haven't found any discussions of this yet. Probably I should pursue the discussions I started with the vetgen geneticist a little more and maybe get the full color gene panel run - including K and A as well as B and E.

If it is really rare in LRs I'd be thinking of doing the mixed breed testing too.

Aside from the obvious fact yellow (double recessive at E) and chocolate (double recessive at B) are allowed in the AKC LR standard, when did it become possible not to breed to dogs carrying some recessives?