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Re: Naruto vs. Sasuke - Deciding factors

Originally Posted by Ryr

Danzou deserves what he got.

And about betraying the village, I do not recall Sasuke ever attacking Konoha or using the villagers for experiments like how Orochimaru and Danzou had done. So I don't see what's so "unforgivable" or "far too guilty" about Sasuke.

The fact of abandoning one's village and joining an enemy is enough for death. This has always been the status quo. Sasuke is the only one who was given leniency in this regard.

And aside from attacking Konoha shinobi in Naruto, Tenzou, Sai and Sakura; Sasuke also killed a Kumo shinobi in J, attacked Killerbee, killed countless Samuari, and cost the the Raikage is arm all while working for a terrorist organization makes him pretty guilty.

So we have:

Treason (we can add on aiding the enemy on several occasions to this one)
Unsanctioned murder
Assault of Konoha shinobi (add his attack on Kakashi as well)

Those are all pretty big crimes in the Narutoverse.

"The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Re: Naruto vs. Sasuke - Deciding factors

The fact of abandoning one's village and joining an enemy is enough for death. This has always been the status quo. Sasuke is the only one who was given leniency in this regard.

Not really, if there's someone who has gotten the most leniency in the Narutoverse, it's Danzou. And it is only possible due to him being one of the elders who wielded actual power behind the Konoha leadership.

Quote:

And aside from attacking Konoha shinobi in Naruto, Tenzou, Sai and Sakura; Sasuke also killed a Kumo shinobi in J, attacked Killerbee, killed countless Samuari, and cost the the Raikage is arm all while working for a terrorist organization makes him pretty guilty.

Those are not really crimes against Konoha. However, you can argue that they were crimes against the Kumo village.

In fact, Onoki at one point was using the Akatsuki against the other villages. So what does that make him? It made him the enemy of the other villages who had to fight against the Akatsuki, but it never made him the enemy of his own village.

Quote:

Treason (we can add on aiding the enemy on several occasions to this one) Unsanctioned murder
Assault of Konoha shinobi (add his attack on Kakashi as well)

Why do I get the feeling that the "unsanctioned" part is actually the emphasis over the "murder" part?

The major characters that Sasuke had killed (or forced to commit suicide) are all villains. If you are going to count the fodders as well, then there is no good guy in the whole Narutoverse, because amost everyone (except maybe Naruto and the younger generations) had killed others either to pillage or to involve themselves in power struggles at one point or another.

The only difference is that the leaders had done these "legitimately" by virtue of their position, while Sasuke had done it as a missing nin.

Now that I think of it, whether or not he will be forgiven really depends solely on the power structure of Konoha and the other villages. If the elders somehow disappears in the war and the Kages are replaced by the younger generations who hold less grudge from the past, then it is completely feasible that he will no longer be hunted.

Of course, this is on the assumption that he doesn't jump in to take Madara's side in the near future. If he does, then that's the end of whatever redemption he may have, lolzz.

Re: Naruto vs. Sasuke - Deciding factors

The fact of abandoning one's village and joining an enemy is enough for death. This has always been the status quo. Sasuke is the only one who was given leniency in this regard.

And aside from attacking Konoha shinobi in Naruto, Tenzou, Sai and Sakura; Sasuke also killed a Kumo shinobi in J, attacked Killerbee, killed countless Samuari, and cost the the Raikage is arm all while working for a terrorist organization makes him pretty guilty.

So we have:

Treason (we can add on aiding the enemy on several occasions to this one)
Unsanctioned murder
Assault of Konoha shinobi (add his attack on Kakashi as well)

Those are all pretty big crimes in the Narutoverse.

This is a highly skewed perception. How many ninja lords were put on trial following their genocides against other villages? Look at Onoki, he literally used Akatsuki for his own schemes. Danzo allied with Orochimaru after robbing graves, and killed ninjas as he saw fit.

Gaara killed people to 'feel alive' and yet he is somehow that harmless, angelic kid now absolved of his heinous crimes.

You may call this 'all for the country' logic, but it doesn't make it any less ugly, tyrannical, or cruel. How many people has Konoha slaughtered to further its power and hold? Pein's village and Sasuke's clan are just the tip of the ice-berg.

Then you also have forgotten to mention element of self-defense. I can't fathom how people forget that Sakura and his team went there to kill him. Would it have satisfied people if he had laid down and stuck out his head willingly?

Sasuke infiltrated the kage summit, but his position was given away by White Zetsu on Obito's orders. He was put into an extremely difficult situation.

All the kages attacked him with an intent to kill, including the jounin, and the Samurai. In fact, he warned the Samurai not to get involved and even told Mei not to interfere, yet they relentlessly attacked to kill him.

Re: Naruto vs. Sasuke - Deciding factors

Hmm... the ninja system was fucked up in that everyone pursued their own/their village's goals and didn't care about whom they had to kill for that. In that sense, Sasuke and everyone else is a victim of the system. That, of course, doesn't cancel Sasuke's or other ninjas' wrongdoings - but the system's changed in this war. Sasuke's not gonna be punished, in the sense of "cycle of hatred"-s end, but that's pretty much fine, because he is and is going to reflect on all he did (and possibly join the light side again and help defeat Madara and Obito).

Re: Naruto vs. Sasuke - Deciding factors

Originally Posted by shahdan

This is a highly skewed perception. How many ninja lords were put on trial following their genocides against other villages? Look at Onoki, he literally used Akatsuki for his own schemes. Danzo allied with Orochimaru after robbing graves, and killed ninjas as he saw fit.

Gaara killed people to 'feel alive' and yet he is somehow that harmless, angelic kid now absolved of his heinous crimes.

The counter to your argument (whether or not it's true) is that they did it for the village. Danzou allied with Orochimaru, robbed graves, and killed ninjas in order to protect Konoha. Oonoki used Akatsuki to help Iwa gain power. Oonoki now opposes Akatsuki and fights them, while Danzou lost the other kage's truth, and was killed.

You may not like "for the village" reasoning, but it's likely the main reason why Oonoki and Danzou got away with it. If villages like Ame had any choice, then I'd bet Danzou would have been ousted around him joining up with Hanzou, if not killed.

Didn't Gaara kill enemies, mostly? And he kinda had an excuse - people hated him just because they thought he was messed up since he was a jinchuuriki and all. He was treated badly in an unfair way. Sasuke basically left the village where he was accepted just to seek more power.

Re: Naruto vs. Sasuke - Deciding factors

Originally Posted by Ryr

Not really, if there's someone who has gotten the most leniency in the Narutoverse, it's Danzou. And it is only possible due to him being one of the elders who wielded actual power behind the Konoha leadership.

Danzou's leniency has to do with the fact that his actions weren't known until after his death, and the fact he most of his actions were sanctioned and in the benefit of Konoha despite how evil they were so I'm not sure why you are bringing him up.

Originally Posted by Ryr

Those are not really crimes against Konoha. However, you can argue that they were crimes against the Kumo village.

In fact, Onoki at one point was using the Akatsuki against the other villages. So what does that make him? It made him the enemy of the other villages who had to fight against the Akatsuki, but it never made him the enemy of his own village.

They are crimes that he can no longer be protected for since their is a ninja alliance. He was a missining-nin of the Konoha, and since they failed to deal with him, he killed Kumo ninja, hence Kumo now has a right to deal with him. If he was killed in the first place like he should have been, none of this would be a problem.

As for Onoki, he used Akatsuki when they were still a mercenary group and weren't capturing Jinchuriki. That happened sometime during or before Part 1 of the manga. It was only at the very end of Part 1 and Part 2 that Akatsuki was known to the world as a terrorist group. They started as a militant group of the Rain Village, recruited people like Kakazu, Orochimaru, Sasori, Kisame and Itachi and became a mercenary group. With their help, they secured funds to begin expansion, which would then be used to build Ame and begin capturing Biju.

Originally Posted by Ryr

Why do I get the feeling that the "unsanctioned" part is actually the emphasis over the "murder" part?

The major characters that Sasuke had killed (or forced to commit suicide) are all villains. If you are going to count the fodders as well, then there is no good guy in the whole Narutoverse, because amost everyone (except maybe Naruto and the younger generations) had killed others either to pillage or to involve themselves in power struggles at one point or another.

The only difference is that the leaders had done these "legitimately" by virtue of their position, while Sasuke had done it as a missing nin.

Now that I think of it, whether or not he will be forgiven really depends solely on the power structure of Konoha and the other villages. If the elders somehow disappears in the war and the Kages are replaced by the younger generations who hold less grudge from the past, then it is completely feasible that he will no longer be hunted.

Of course, this is on the assumption that he doesn't jump in to take Madara's side in the near future. If he does, then that's the end of whatever redemption he may have, lolzz.

In the ninja world you have to be given permission by your village to kill people so you can go back to that village and be protected by the comrades/loved ones of the people you killed. This is how the ninja world works. Sasuke was given leniency in this regard, and no longer has Konoha to protect him despite his numerous crimes.

And even tho J and Samarui aren't major characters, they are still people. Not to mention, if it weren't for the Kyuubi Naruto would have been dead when Sasuke shoved a chidori through his chest. He was a missing-nin who refused to come back to Konoha and tried to kill those who went after him on several occasions.

This is a highly skewed perception. How many ninja lords were put on trial following their genocides against other villages? Look at Onoki, he literally used Akatsuki for his own schemes. Danzo allied with Orochimaru after robbing graves, and killed ninjas as he saw fit.

Gaara killed people to 'feel alive' and yet he is somehow that harmless, angelic kid now absolved of his heinous crimes.

You may call this 'all for the country' logic, but it doesn't make it any less ugly, tyrannical, or cruel. How many people has Konoha slaughtered to further its power and hold? Pein's village and Sasuke's clan are just the tip of the ice-berg.

Then you also have forgotten to mention element of self-defense. I can't fathom how people forget that Sakura and his team went there to kill him. Would it have satisfied people if he had laid down and stuck out his head willingly?

Sasuke infiltrated the kage summit, but his position was given away by White Zetsu on Obito's orders. He was put into an extremely difficult situation.

All the kages attacked him with an intent to kill, including the jounin, and the Samurai. In fact, he warned the Samurai not to get involved and even told Mei not to interfere, yet they relentlessly attacked to kill him.

I am not seeing the point here...

You are trying to put real world logic into a fantasy world, that is your first fault.

By the rules of the Narutoverse, Sasuke should have been hunted down and captured/ and/or killed. He was a missing-nin, this is how it works. He then later committed crimes against his village and the ninja world at large, and hence a price was put on his head.

There is no defense for 'self defense" when you have already attacked people and have refused or to hand yourself over or surrender. This is Law 101, Sasuke lost the claim for self defense the moment he ran from the village and ran a Chidori through Naruto's chest when he refused to come back with him.

Sasuke invaded the Kage summit to KILL THE HOKAGE. It doesn't matter how much of a bastard Danzou was, he was still Hokage. And they relentlessly tired to kill him because he was working with Akatsuki, or did you not see the cloak he was wearing? They had every right to kill him.

As for Gaara, he was the son of Kazekage and thus was given lee-way. Not to mention, they simply could not kill him, they tried numerous times if you remember. And I don't disagree that he was absolved of his crimes with no punishment, but he was elected Kage so obviously his village did not care.

Onoki used Akatsuki as mercenary group before they were terrorists, so that doesn't count. There is no indication that he continued to do so after they captured and killed two of his villages Jinchuriki.

And the point here is, is that Sasuke is guilty and should be punished by death for his crimes according to the rules of his own village and rules of the ninja world. The entire manga agrees with this sentiment, and yet people try to defend him when he has no defense. Should Gaara have been put to death? Yes, but his village gave him amnesty and he later saved them for it.

Ninja villages are evil, all of them. There is no point debating something we already know to be true. But even still, they have rules that must be followed to ensure peace and order and Sasuke violated many of them for selfish reasons.

"The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Re: Naruto vs. Sasuke - Deciding factors

Originally Posted by Delbi

You are trying to put real world logic into a fantasy world, that is your first fault.

By the rules of the Narutoverse, Sasuke should have been hunted down and captured/ and/or killed. He was a missing-nin, this is how it works. He then later committed crimes against his village and the ninja world at large, and hence a price was put on his head.

There is no defense for 'self defense" when you have already attacked people and have refused or to hand yourself over or surrender. This is Law 101, Sasuke lost the claim for self defense the moment he ran from the village and ran a Chidori through Naruto's chest when he refused to come back with him.

Sasuke invaded the Kage summit to KILL THE HOKAGE. It doesn't matter how much of a bastard Danzou was, he was still Hokage. And they relentlessly tired to kill him because he was working with Akatsuki, or did you not see the cloak he was wearing? They had every right to kill him.

As for Gaara, he was the son of Kazekage and thus was given lee-way. Not to mention, they simply could not kill him, they tried numerous times if you remember. And I don't disagree that he was absolved of his crimes with no punishment, but he was elected Kage so obviously his village did not care.

Onoki used Akatsuki as mercenary group before they were terrorists, so that doesn't count. There is no indication that he continued to do so after they captured and killed two of his villages Jinchuriki.

And the point here is, is that Sasuke is guilty and should be punished by death for his crimes according to the rules of his own village and rules of the ninja world. The entire manga agrees with this sentiment, and yet people try to defend him when he has no defense. Should Gaara have been put to death? Yes, but his village gave him amnesty and he later saved them for it.

Ninja villages are evil, all of them. There is no point debating something we already know to be true. But even still, they have rules that must be followed to ensure peace and order and Sasuke violated many of them for selfish reasons.

I am speaking of Naruto-Verse rules as well. Wasn't Danzo not trusted and placed under Surveillance right there at the summit? Didn't Raikage point out Onoki using Ataksuki for terrorism against other villages? The point is absolution, nothing more. Raikage didn't trust or hold any of the kages in high regard for the crimes of their villages. Why is that so? The rules are same for all. I find it disgusting how Gaara is utterly absolved of everything based on his election as a Kage. You cannot simply employ this logic's use for one side of the argument. He killed people indiscriminately, that should be enough to put weight on the morbidity of his past life.

Sasuke left the village to avenge his clan, he was not a threat to Konoha at that point at all, so surrender was not a feasible option for him. When his clan's slaughter came into light, did anyone dig deep into the matter? When you talk about rules, you seem to forget that the manga doesn't condone mass slaughter of people for nationalistic agendas - at times it does as well - hence by Manga logic alone Sasuke's reasons to leave the village to avenge his clan are justified; he was doing something the village could not.

Shikamaru's hypothesis that triggered the whole 'kill Sasuke' plan was preposterous and idiotic. The only thing they should have done was stop Naruto's pursuit and Konoha automatically would never have gotten involved. The conflict would have been reduced to Raikage and Sasuke for his attack on Bee.

Self-Defense does come into play here and is a decent logic. How can Onoki attack an Akatsuki member when he used the organization himself? Mei wasn't even cetrain of Yagura's treatment as an Akatsuki puppet and yet she meddled regardless? Also, the fact that A was holding them accountable for their arbitrary governments and their lop-sided policies means that Ninja rules apply on this front as well.

Danzo was not trusted by any of the Kages at that point, and it was Konoha's matter and their 'killing stance' makes no sense based on the aforementioned points regarding trust issues on grounds of their involvement with Akatsuki. How can you simply disregard that?

'Selfish reasons' is your own perception. I couldn't care less about Jingoism, patriotism, or the concept of country to begin with. The ensuing blood-shed over nation superiority is what will always make people regress further back into stone age. So our view-points differ vastly here. It's best if you don't bring this point into discussion.

Re: Naruto vs. Sasuke - Deciding factors

@shahdan
When Sasuke left the village he was god-damn threat which is why they sent a team to get him.
For cool plot reasons it was a Genin team since Chuunins and Jonins were on the bigger missions as they were recently attacked by two villages.
He was a threat because he agreed he was going to be Orochimaru's vessel, and was working basically with the Hidden Sound, now an enemy of the Hidden Leaf.
I still don't get why the 3rd Hokage let them into the Chuunin Exams.

Do you mean Shikamaru's hypothesis that was the whole if we kill their friend and they kill ours, we will do the same and it will go back and forth hypothesis?
Actually, Konoha as a responsible nation would have had to send a team to retrieve Sasuke.
Him leaving join Orochimaru is a massive threat to your village no matter which way you look at it.

The LAST Uchiha of your village goes into the hands of one of your greatest enemies Orochi?
Did you really think a team during those 2 years wouldn't have been sent to retrieve Sasuke hahaha.

Well...

I seriously hope this whole Hashirama talk changes Sasuke's ways for a less genocidal goal.

In my view Sasuke need a vilaneous evolution, so far he has been just a mentally unstable brat with super powers trying to murder everyone who profited directly or indirectly (reads whole world) from his family being murdered to prevent a world war.

So far his head is a mess trying to cope with his family being oppressed to the point of revolt and getting murdered by his most beloved sibling with every mofo he finds including his own brother telling him this was the right thing to do because of the village and peace.

Do you understand how much of a mind screw this must be to Sasuke? Imagine everyone you love being hated by your entire comunity to the point they decide to make said community change by force but then that old rich guy in the neighborhood threatens to kill you so that your brother murder your whole family to avoid the neighborhood being engulfed in an even bigger shoot out.

This whole mental conflic Sasuke has been put through made him a very manipulable character, the best example was Tobi casually convincing him to murder Karin just because he was mad at Danzo and the Konoha at that time.

I think that while it was cool to see Sasuke snapping and benefitting from with great power comes great insanity this made him somewhat weak as a final antagonist for the series.

While Tobi and Madara have a massive plan spamming decades and reached the brink of accomplishing it, Sasuke never had any particular goals besides murdering everything that reminds him of Itachi and his clan.

For that reason I see Sasuke giving up his empty revenge and choosing to follow a greater scheme that would place him in control of the entire world.

The whole series pointed out to a Orochimaru master plan than aims for some big yet still unkown goal involving a guy with a Rinnegan and which could probably put the entire world under Taka's control as Suigetsu put it.

If Sasuke learns the mistakes from Madara's tragedy yet chooses to follow the path of darkness, it would be cool for Sasuke to become a much more calculating and competent villain who would seize Orochimaru's plan just like how Tobi seized the Moon Eye Plan from Madara.

Just like how Naruto is becoming a much more mature hero thanks to the losses in the war and cementing his ideals not as some child's dream but as a concrete path which deals with the harshness of reality, I'd like to see Sasuke taking his role as an avenger to a more realistic and meaningful way.

If Sasuke has an ideal which cements revenge and world domination as feasible goals like Madara and Tobi did, he can qualify as the last antagonist of the show in a much more credible fashion.