Hello! I found your website and it reminded me of an article I read. I am a Christian and I would like for you to click on this link and read this article. I hope it's very eye-opening for you. God loves you all and I care about you all, and we don't want you guys to be eternally punished in the lake of fire (hell) for not believing in God's Son Jesus Christ (Who Himself is God) because of your sins. I am sending you another link that tells you how you can be saved. Thank you so much for taking the time to read this email and these two links. I really hope you repent and choose to accept Jesus Christ today. Then tell the rest of your staff so that they can get saved too!

I haven't had much time to read through all of it, but at first there are a few warning bells. The warning bells we're looking at the claims in an ancient manuscript describing of events that happened a very long time ago. Not exactly reliable, it's about as reliable as the Epic of Gilgamesh, The Iliad, The Odyssey, Metamorphoses and several other ancient stories.

It's pretty circular. The bible makes the claims and people use the bible as verification. It's very much like me saying, "Thor is real, I had a pint with him last week". The testimony is coming from the same source as the claim. Of course, somebody else might come in and say, "oh yeah, it was a right laugh" but even with multiple testimonies it's hard to actually verify whether or not we went out drinking with a Norse god. This is what people often fail to do when bringing up faith. It's either backing up the bible with the bible or providing untested testimonies, always testimonies. The amount of miracles people have testified to suggests at least somebody could have given us something a lot more verifiable. The best people can come up with are magician shows. If we were to consider such things as reliable, we'd have to believe the likes of Darren Brown, Dynamo and other magicians are somehow connected to the supernatural. Yes, I see the argument that there are fewer miracles today, but the fact people are claiming miracles still happen means we should still be able to verify them. The only people who seem to verify what's a 'miracle' are the clergy and not any unbiased sources, for example, reputable scientists relying on the scientific process (which is an excellent process for verification).

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“It is difficult to understand the universe if you only study one planet” - Miyamoto MusashiWarning: I occassionally forget to proofread my posts to spot typos or to spot poor editing.

God either wants to eliminate bad things and cannot, or can but does not want to, or neither wishes to nor can, or both wants to and can. If he wants to and cannot, then he is weak - and this does not apply to god. If he can but does not want to, then he is spiteful - which is equally foreign to god's nature. If he neither wants to nor can, he is both weak and spiteful, and so not a god. If he wants to and can, which is the only thing fitting for a god, where then do bad things come from? Or why does he not eliminate them?

Assumption 1: God has never healed an amputee.[…]Besides, we have the historical record of Jesus healing lepers, some of whom we may assume had lost digits or facial features.

No, you sinner! You cannot assume that! Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

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Also, there is the case of the man with the shriveled hand (Matthew 12:9-13),

Not an amputee!

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the restoration of Malchus's severed ear (Luke 22:50-51),

Read your Bible! The passage is unclear on the state of the ear. Moreover, Even if the ear were replaced (and we cannot say it was) It was the same ear! Another ear did not grow! You go to a hospital with your severed ear, and they will put it back on!

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not to mention the fact that Jesus raised the dead (Matthew 11:5; John 11), which would undeniably be even more difficult than healing an amputee.

This has nothing to do with amputees. There are good reasons for not believing any of this “raising from the dead” garbage.

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Assumption 2: God’s goodness and love require Him to heal everyone. Illness, suffering, and pain are the result of our living in a cursed world—cursed because of our sin (Genesis 3:16-19;Romans 8:20-22).

In the Gospel of John, Jesus denies this. Joh:9:1: And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.Joh:9:2: And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?Joh:9:3: Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

The sins of your fathers do not follow you - that's Jesus talking, son!

God made that man blind, just to show how powerful God is - read the verses!

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If God’s love required Him to heal every disease and infirmity, then no one would ever die.

This displays the writer’s profound inability to grasp the natural process of ‘cell death” —How can you argue with someone as ignorant as this?

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The testimony of Joni Eareckson Tada provides a modern example of what God can do through physical tragedy. As a teenager, Joni suffered a diving accident that left her a quadriplegic. In her bookJoni, she relates how she visited faith healers many times and prayed desperately for the healing which never came. Finally, she accepted her condition as God’s will, and she writes, "The more I think about it, the more I’m convinced that God doesn’t want everyone well. He uses our problems for His glory and our good" (p. 190).

So, basically, because God did not heal her, this is proof that God heals amputees? How does that work?

Is this writer sane?

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Assumption 3: God still performs miracles today just as He did in the past. In the thousands of years of history covered by the Bible, we find just four short periods in which miracles were widely performed (the period of the Exodus, the time of the prophets Elijah and Elisha, the ministry of Jesus, and the time of the apostles). While miracles occurred throughout the Bible, it was only during these four periods that miracles were "common."

The time of the apostles ended with the writing of Revelation and the death of John. That means that now, once again, miracles are rare.

They are not only “rare” they don’t happen. We don’t believe in “magic”. So, the writer is saying that God loved the people in history more than us and God just lets African children die?

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Assumption 4: God is bound to say "yes" to any prayer offered in faith. Jesus said, "I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it" (John 14:12-14). Some have tried to interpret this passage as Jesus agreeing to whatever we ask. But this is misreading Jesus’ intent. Notice, first, that Jesus is speaking to His apostles, and the promise is for them.

So God does not heal amputees? See, WWGHA is correct.

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A selfish prayer, for example, or one motivated by greed, cannot be said to be prayed in Jesus’ name.

What if I pray for an amputee to be healed? I'm sure that true Christians have offered this prayer in the past. Why hasn't it worked?

This applies to dead people. As you and I have never met a dead person who we can ask, nor have either of us been dead, this is a very easy promise to make, isn’t it?

I mean, I could say, “Give me your money and 2 days after you die, I will bring you back to life.” How could you tell if I had done it?

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Assumption 6: God’s plan is subject to man’s approval. One of the contentions of the "why won’t God heal amputees" argument is that God just isn’t "fair" to amputees.

So the writer agrees that God does not heal amputees, although He could. Just as He allegedly cured cripples? It is not a question of "being fair" is it? It is just that He never, ever does it - perhaps He can't? Perhaps He's not there? Perhaps "magic" is not real?

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Assumption 7: God does not exist. This is the underlying assumption on which the whole "why won’t God heal amputees" argument is based. Those who champion the "why won’t God heal amputees" argument start with the assumption that God does not exist and then proceed to buttress their idea as best they can. For them, "religion is a myth" is a foregone conclusion, presented as a logical deduction but which is, in reality, foundational to the argument.

The writer has simply, and without proof, stated that “God is real.” OK, where’s his proof, where is his evidence? He is the one saying that there’s an invisible man in the sky who makes men from mud – tell us more! Give some proof.

(Oh, by the way, I have a herd of unicorns in my garden. Prove I haven’t…)

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A personal testimony:Our first son was born missing bones in his lower legs and in his feet and he only had two toes. […] I have seen His calling me to be a special mother as a way to teach others of the blessings of God.

Isn’t it more likely that God is punishing her for her sins? She must have been evil and thus God is teaching her a lesson, just like above, God punishes amputees and doesn’t heal them. Oh yes, “Why does God think she needs to be “a special mother?””

I don’t believe in God and both my sons are fine.

Welcome to the forum.

We encourage critical thinking, not blind acceptance of superstitions.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 01:17:44 PM by Graybeard »

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Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

OK, looks like we've got another winner, here. Graybeard has already addressed a lot of this, but I'll add my own take to it anyway...

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Assumption 1: God has never healed an amputee.

Yes, this is an assumption, and it's a pretty safe one, inasmuch as an amputee getting his limb back has never been documented. To speculate that God might have restored someone's limb but that we just don't know about it is pointless without any evidence. We could just as easily speculate that I am God, but there's no evidence of that, either.

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Assumption 2: God’s goodness and love require Him to heal everyone.

Not necessarily, no, but we note that most Christians claim that prayer heals some cancer patients, heals some people with pneumonia, and so on, but never does an amputee get his limb back.

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Assumption 3: God still performs miracles today just as He did in the past.

Actually, as atheists, we assume that he doesn't do miracles, since we don't believe he exists. Most Christians believe that Yahweh does still perform miracles. If you're one of the exceptions, well, then, I suppose you get a pass -- but of course, that also means you can't claim that anything is a miracle.

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Assumption 4: God is bound to say "yes" to any prayer offered in faith.

It's really silly to try convince atheists to become Christians by telling them that they require Christian salvation. If we thought we needed Christian salvation, we wouldn't be atheists in the first place, would we? I mean, think of it this way: if a Scientologist were to tell you that the only way you could live a happy life was to submit to auditing so you could remove your engrams and body thetans, how persuasive would you find the argument? That's probably about how persuasive we find yours.

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"This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all." -1 John 1:5

Oh, you like quoting from the bible? Me, too.

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives." -Deuteronomy 22:28-29

{N.B. that how the young woman feels about the matter doesn't appear to be taken into account so much...}

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[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]: Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Regretfully I must decline your fine argumentum ad baculum offer, as I am unable to accept in good conscience an eternity in heavenly bliss if even one other sentient being is being tortured in Hell by your "loving" god. Tell your imaginary friend to drop the fire and brimstone nonsense and release all its captives, and we'll talk.

I am sending you another link that tells you how you can be saved. Thank you so much for taking the time to read this email and these two links. I really hope you repent and choose to accept Jesus Christ today.

Thank you for sending these links informing me about Christ and the route to salvation.

I cannot understand why nobody has ever brought this information to my attention before, and will be taking that omission up with the relevant authorities.

I am a Christian and I would like for you to click on this link and read this article. I hope it's very eye-opening for you.

Thank you for the link. I've read it before. It was eye-opening in that I did not realize xians employed the mentally retarded to write apologistic rebuttals for them. Seriously, it was a poor effort that someone with a 6th grade education should be able to see through. It fundamentally misunderstands the basic arguments of WWGHA. Or it intentionally and dishonestly ignores them.

Come to the forum and I will explain exactly how that site got it so wrong.

Quote from: xian

I care about you all,

While I am totally loveable, you don't love me. You don't even know me.

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we don't want you guys to be eternally punished in the lake of fire (hell) for not believing in God's Son Jesus Christ

Think that through for a minute. Eternal punishment in a lake of fire for not believing in a guy of questionable existential status. Eternal toture for not believing. Does that really strike you are just? Moral? Fair?

It strikes me as a threat made by a monster. It strikes me as extortion.

Quote from: xian

I really hope you repent and choose to accept Jesus Christ today. Then tell the rest of your staff so that they can get saved too!

I really hope you see what a load of balony religion is and choose to embrace rational thinking today.

Thank you for the link. I've read it before. It was eye-opening in that I did not realize xians employed the mentally retarded to write apologistic rebuttals for them.

In defense of people with developmental delay, I've found most of them to be innocent and happy folks with a zest for living. I think the website author is a vicious-minded sod suffering from delay of moral development, and doesn't seem to grok that a god that would create a hell simply isn't to be trusted with anyone's eternal happiness.

And in the interest of full disclosure, I should really warn our Mailbag interlocutor that the Sinner's Prayer is the Mark of the Beast. One less sack o' flaming human to carry out of Hell on My back.

Finally, I suspect that the love and care this individual feels is just ecclesiogenic fear and loathing, with a side order of gastrointestinal reflux. (Mr. or Ms. Mailbag Correspondent, please lay off the altar calls and Wednesday night fast food runs after church, and ask your doctor if chronic exposure to stupid and unconscionable ideas is right for you.)

God loves you all and I care about you all, and we don't want you guys to be eternally punished in the lake of fire (hell) for not believing in God's Son Jesus Christ (Who Himself is God) because of your sins.

God loves us so much, that he'll send us to eternal torment if we don't love him back. Uh, right. If that's "love", I don't want to know what god's idea of hate is.

Besides, we have the historical record of Jesus healing lepers, some of whom we may assume had lost digits or facial features. In each case, the lepers were restored whole (Mark 1:40-42; Luke 17:12-14). Also, there is the case of the man with the shriveled hand (Matthew 12:9-13), and the restoration of Malchus's severed ear (Luke 22:50-51), not to mention the fact that Jesus raised the dead (Matthew 11:5; John 11), which would undeniably be even more difficult than healing an amputee.

Other people have pointed out the flaws in this arguement, so I won't get into those. Instead, I'll just bring up one additional thing.

Even if we accept these stories as true, there's still one major problem. They all took place in the magical, far off place known as BiblelandTM. Yes, Bibleland, a magical place, a magical time, where god is very real and miracles are unambitious.

Meanwhile, we live in RealitylandTM, where there is no evidence for god's existence, miracles are extremely ambitious, and no magic happens. At no point in Realityland do we ever see the magical healing of an amputee. The "best" miracles we ever get involves Jesus appearing in a piece of toast.

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Assumption 2: God’s goodness and love require Him to heal everyone. Illness, suffering, and pain are the result of our living in a cursed world—cursed because of our sin (Genesis 3:16-19; Romans 8:20-22). God’s goodness and love moved Him to provide a Savior to redeem us from the curse (1 John 4:9-10), but our ultimate redemption will not be realized until God has made a final end of sin in the world. Until that time, we are still subject to physical death.

Again, those are happenings of BiblelandTM, not RealitylandTM.

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If God’s love required Him to heal every disease and infirmity, then no one would ever die—because "love" would maintain everyone in perfect health. The biblical definition of love is "a sacrificial seeking what is best for the loved one." What is best for us is not always physical wholeness. Paul the apostle prayed to have his "thorn in the flesh" removed, but God said, "No," because He wanted Paul to understand he didn’t need to be physically whole to experience the sustaining grace of God. Through the experience, Paul grew in humility and in the understanding of God’s mercy and power (2 Corinthians 12:7-10).

Nothing more than an attempt to explain why the rules of Bibleland doesn't apply to Realityland.

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The testimony of Joni Eareckson Tada provides a modern example of what God can do through physical tragedy. As a teenager, Joni suffered a diving accident that left her a quadriplegic. In her book Joni, she relates how she visited faith healers many times and prayed desperately for the healing which never came. Finally, she accepted her condition as God’s will, and she writes, "The more I think about it, the more I’m convinced that God doesn’t want everyone well. He uses our problems for His glory and our good" (p. 190).

Again, demostrating that the rules of Bibleland doesn't apply to Realityland.

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Assumption 3: God still performs miracles today just as He did in the past. In the thousands of years of history covered by the Bible, we find just four short periods in which miracles were widely performed (the period of the Exodus, the time of the prophets Elijah and Elisha, the ministry of Jesus, and the time of the apostles). While miracles occurred throughout the Bible, it was only during these four periods that miracles were "common."

The time of the apostles ended with the writing of Revelation and the death of John. That means that now, once again, miracles are rare. Any ministry which claims to be led by a new breed of apostle or claims to possess the ability to heal is deceiving people. "Faith healers" play upon emotion and use the power of suggestion to produce unverifiable "healings." This is not to say that God does not heal people today—we believe He does—but not in the numbers or in the way that some people claim.

More explaing how things works in Bibleland. The rest of the article is little more than long-winded explaination of how the rules works in Bibleland, and how we shouldn't expect them to apply in Realityland. Strangely, the author seems a little confused about this point. He seems to think that god also exists in Realityland, but he just does vague, backhanded things. Funny, how that works.

Hello! I found your website and it reminded me of an article I read. I am a Christian and I would like for you to click on this link and read this article.

Ummmm....no.

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God loves you all and I care about you all, and we don't want you guys to be eternally punished in the lake of fire (hell) for not believing in God's Son Jesus Christ (Who Himself is God) because of your sins. I am sending you another link that tells you how you can be saved. Thank you so much for taking the time to read this email and these two links. I really hope you repent and choose to accept Jesus Christ today. Then tell the rest of your staff so that they can get saved too!

Do you win everyone over by threats and injecting fear?

-Nam

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Quote from: David Garrett Arnold

there are oceans of words aged in prayer,against geometric lines, and cloudbeaten skies;credulous allure—slowly captivated in hearts fair—trees and flowers bloomed in grace upon one's eyes.

Hello! I found your website and it reminded me of an article I read. I am a Christian and I would like for you to click on this link and read this article. I hope it's very eye-opening for you. God loves you all and I care about you all, and we don't want you guys to be eternally punished in the lake of fire (hell) for not believing in God's Son Jesus Christ (Who Himself is God) because of your sins. I am sending you another link that tells you how you can be saved. Thank you so much for taking the time to read this email and these two links. I really hope you repent and choose to accept Jesus Christ today. Then tell the rest of your staff so that they can get saved too!

Not necessarily, no, but we note that most Christians claim that prayer heals some cancer patients, heals some people with pneumonia, and so on, but never does an amputee get his limb back.

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Assumption 3: God still performs miracles today just as He did in the past.

Actually, as atheists, we assume that he doesn't do miracles, since we don't believe he exists. Most Christians believe that Yahweh does still perform miracles. If you're one of the exceptions, well, then, I suppose you get a pass -- but of course, that also means you can't claim that anything is a miracle.

This demonstrates the attempt by many Christians to have it both ways. Particularly egregious is the part about how prayer won't be answered unless it is "consonant with Jesus' will." So when your vacation went smoothly and everyone returned home safely, god answered your prayers and must have some greater plan for you. When your neighbor's three-year-old succumbed to leukemia after a long and painful battle, those prayers simply weren't consonant with Jesus' will. And besides, god doesn't perform miracles anymore! What kind of faithless heathen would pray for a miracle? That'll just annoy Jesus!

God loves you all and I care about you all, and we don't want you guys to be eternally punished in the lake of fire (hell) for not believing in God's Son Jesus Christ (Who Himself is God) because of your sins.

What kind of a god punishes his creation with eternal torture simply for not believing he/it exists? I'll tell you what kind ... a sadistic bully.

Luckily, he/it does not exist and I will withhold belief in his/its existence until there is empirical, scientific evidence to the contrary.

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I am sending you another link that tells you how you can be saved.

Saved from what? ... oh yeah, from god himself who made the rules and created said "Lake of Fire". This is analogous an abusive father threatening his children ... "Love me or I'll throw you into a pool of gasoline and set it alight, burning you forever!!!".

No thanks for the offer.

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I really hope you repent and choose to accept Jesus Christ today.

Repent? I'm not guilty of anything, thank you very much. I will not be made to feel guilty for being human.

One day I'm really gonna go off on these people who think they just discovered fire and invented the wheel. I've grown loathsome of their lack of creativity. If you're going to live in a fantasy world, you need to demonstrate an ability to come up with new shit.

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John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

again... poking my head in as a fairly new "convert" to the reality the xian god is a creation of primitive goathumpers...

however, I believe the xians you guys have showing up here sincerely think you've never heard these (trite, tired, disproven, ludicrous) arguments before because that's the world they live in: "non-believers" have lived their lives in dark, godless, misery and have never considered the beautiful gift the xian is imparting to them by telling them about the happy carpenter.

It drove me crazy during my deconversion to see the TOTAL absence of critical thinking amongst my "fellow believers" - it simply NEVER crosses many of their minds that anyone would/could question the skygod.

Chronos, is there some sort of sacrament to become a "born again" atheist? Am I baptized in the name of the Darwin, the Dawkins and the Holy Skeptic?

If not, I hope there's at least a toaster or something relatively useful.... all I got from the church was a prepinted certificate and monthly offering envelopes. Oh never mind - a fully functioning reason seems to be a nice tradeoff!

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If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is. - neopagan

ChronosActually, you are right in that "one day" it's like the light bulb came on in my brain... this is all horseshit!! It felt like a smack to the back of the head and literally I felt embarrassed at first when I noticed how stupid I'd been.

Like the letter writer above - I would jump to apologetics to explain any challenge - ignoring the logical leaps, the contradictions and the verbal gymnastics required to salvage the "sacred texts" from the concept of error.

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If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is. - neopagan

ChronosActually, you are right in that "one day" it's like the light bulb came on in my brain... this is all horseshit!! It felt like a smack to the back of the head and literally I felt embarrassed at first when I noticed how stupid I'd been.

As a child, I was very skeptical as none of it really made sense, but I was surrounded by those who said that they believed. I thought I was missing something or that god was overlooking communicating to me. I knew something was wrong with me. I watched science shows (NOVA was a favorite, still is) and nothing I heard in the theories of physics even remotely related to a god. It wasn't until many years later that I realized how people are brainwashed into believing what they would otherwise consider bullshit if heard inside a court room, or worse, on the bench in front of the post office.

My final attempt to believe occurred in college with bible study sessions. I didn't do anything for me. I gave up on religion and considered myself a lost cause. Oddly during that time I didn't seek out information about atheism. If I happened upon it, I read it. That was rare.

Like the letter writer above - I would jump to apologetics to explain any challenge - ignoring the logical leaps, the contradictions and the verbal gymnastics required to salvage the "sacred texts" from the concept of error.

You have an advantage that I never did. You believed. I cannot say what it is like to transition from belief to non-belief. I am amazed that anyone believes this stuff at all, so I continue to be lost in understanding how people get sucked into it. The closest I can claim is transferring from agnosticism to atheisim, mainly due to a misunderstanding of both terms.

Learning more about how religion affects everything, or to directly quote Hitchens, "Religion poisons everything", you will begin to see how you may become a born-again atheist. Hitch was definitely a born-again atheist.

As a educated born again christian I decided to get just a bit more involved in discussions, as I belive we as christians ows especially scientists and other skilled persons a some more respectfull conversation. My belife is it that God has choosen to work in the creation by the laws he made for the creation. He does not ad or remove mass or energy, for the short period of time in the first stage of creating human beeings with free will given in a "safe" or at least temporary enviroment, where as some of us belive to be the only possible deffination of existance.

It seems to me that everything God wants to do on the Earth, he chooses to do trough people, for whom he has a uniq plan for that they freely chosse to folow to different degrees. They might even choos to use their God given talents to work totally aginst the plan witch they were created for. Lack of food is not the main reason for for poverty, war is. If peoples with no moral should prosper to much, history tells us, it's a disaster for so many human beeings. Sertenly God interveins, but he does not remove our mandate to rule the world, as we have cosen the knowlege of good and evil, God does not constantly remove evil as soon as it occurs, how ever, he give ut insights that some day he will remove evil.

To me life without fait, makes to little sense. We get born, knowing nothing. Then develop and advance for no reason but to die old and vise, and as the light goes out our knowlage dies with us, lest preserved by some number of generations after us, maybe even until the precise enviorment for our lives cease to substain.I see this life as a little start, a tryout if you want, to a life where time has no existance as we know it from sycluses in the uiverse. By the way, pardon my written english, I'm more of a practical then theorethical person, and english is not my native language.

My belife is it that God has choosen to work in the creation by the laws he made for the creation.

In other words, God doesn't do things that break the laws he set forth in creation. Is that right? How is that different from saying that nothing supernatural ever happens? Interestingly enough, as an atheist, I agree with you. Nothing supernatural ever happens. My position (that God isn't real) also posits this same conclusion.

What if there was no God, and the universe just operated under a set of completely natural laws that came about naturally at the moment of the big bang? Wouldn't that adequately explain every single second from the moment of the big bang until right now?

He does not ad or remove mass or energy, for the short period of time in the first stage of creating human beeings with free will given in a "safe" or at least temporary enviroment, where as some of us belive to be the only possible deffination of existance.

I'm really struggling to understand what you're saying here. I read it 4 times and I'm still not sure. Could you clarify what exactly you mean here?

It seems to me that everything God wants to do on the Earth, he chooses to do trough people, for whom he has a uniq plan for that they freely chosse to folow to different degrees.

Which very suspiciously looks the same as a scenario where everyone is an individual and does what their brain tells them as if there is no God breathed plan in the first place. You have to understand, Dageivind, that your entire theology presupposes God, but your reality presents exactly as if God isn't there at all.

If you have no idea what God's plan is in the first place, then how can you know whether or not you're just assuming there is one when there might not be one to begin with?

They might even choos to use their God given talents to work totally aginst the plan witch they were created for.

How would you test whether or not this is true? If you can't test it, then why should anyone believe this is actually the case? What if we are all just born into the world and the world comes at us at the same time we're coming at it, and what happens to each of us is just what happens? Could it be that there is no master plan? Of course it could.

Sertenly God interveins, but he does not remove our mandate to rule the world, as we have cosen the knowlege of good and evil, God does not constantly remove evil as soon as it occurs, how ever, he give ut insights that some day he will remove evil.

Or he isn't real and he doesn't remove evil at all, and the idea that someday he's going to remove it is simply incorrect. Can you point to any evidence that God has ever removed evil in any way, shape or form that we can examine? Please don't cite the bible here because it's not a reliable source of information.

We get born, knowing nothing. Then develop and advance for no reason but to die old and vise, and as the light goes out our knowlage dies with us, lest preserved by some number of generations after us, maybe even until the precise enviorment for our lives cease to substain.

This is another statement that I'm having trouble dissecting, but just because we are born and someday die, doesn't mean we can't use the intervening time to enjoy the life we have.

By the way, pardon my written english, I'm more of a practical then theorethical person, and english is not my native language.

I'm very glad you clarified that, because I was beginning to wonder just what you meant by 'educated'. If English isn't your first language, then just do your best.

Dageivind, please understand that there are millions and millions of people out there who have very good reasons to think that God isn't real, and that you owe it to yourself to hear the other side of the argument. You really might be wrong here and you need to see the reasons we think you are.

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Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Wow, spelling sure looks like a born again Christian. I guess you get a pass since English is not your 1st language. Did not realize that there were born again Christians outside the walls of the USA. You talked a lot about what you think but still gave no proof of the God thing. And welcome to the site. Maybe you will learn something or at least improve your English skills.

As a educated born again christian I decided to get just a bit more involved in discussions, as I belive we as christians ows especially scientists and other skilled persons a some more respectfull conversation.

Educated people usually can spell sufficiently. I do know some educated people who are poor spellers but not to your extent. So based on that, I doubt the validity of your words. Though if spelled correctly the grammar is better than the average person the fact you spell and use certain words correctly and benign fillers poorly also show my doubt.

What this appears to me to be is you copying another's words as your own. Though, again you could just be a greatly awful speller.

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My belife is it that God has choosen to work in the creation by the laws he made for the creation. He does not ad or remove mass or energy, for the short period of time in the first stage of creating human beeings with free will given in a "safe" or at least temporary enviroment, where as some of us belive to be the only possible deffination of existance.

It seems to me that everything God wants to do on the Earth, he chooses to do trough people, for whom he has a uniq plan for that they freely chosse to folow to different degrees.

If "god" is working through them then how can they work against "god"? Seems to imply "god" is weak.

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They might even choos to use their God given talents to work totally aginst the plan witch they were created for. Lack of food is not the main reason for for poverty, war is. If peoples with no moral should prosper to much, history tells us, it's a disaster for so many human beeings. Sertenly God interveins, but he does not remove our mandate to rule the world, as we have cosen the knowlege of good and evil, God does not constantly remove evil as soon as it occurs, how ever, he give ut insights that some day he will remove evil.

If "god" created everything, and everything is of "god" (or it wouldn't exist), then how can "god" get rid of something it created, and is of it?

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To me life without fait, makes to little sense. We get born, knowing nothing. Then develop and advance for no reason but to die old and vise, and as the light goes out our knowlage dies with us, lest preserved by some number of generations after us, maybe even until the precise enviorment for our lives cease to substain.

What you believe to be true doesn't make it true. Either you live in delusional theory with no course to further from that point, or you seek non-biased evidence that supports your position, and if it doesn't support your position, you let the fiction go and find enlightenment within yourself without a crutch of a nonexistent being.

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I see this life as a little start, a tryout if you want, to a life where time has no existance as we know it from sycluses in the uiverse. By the way, pardon my written english, I'm more of a practical then theorethical person, and english is not my native language.

Native or not, I've known non-English speakers use a spell check. Look into it.

-Nam

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Quote from: David Garrett Arnold

there are oceans of words aged in prayer,against geometric lines, and cloudbeaten skies;credulous allure—slowly captivated in hearts fair—trees and flowers bloomed in grace upon one's eyes.

Sertenly God interveins, but he does not remove our mandate to rule the world,

Next paragraph, and god DOES intervene, and does NOT override our free will! Sorry, but I haven't a clue what your position actually is. There are only two options, and what you say both supports and refutes both.

1) God intervenes directly in the world. You say: yes and no. "God has choosen to work in the creation by the laws he made for the creation" - but also "Sertenly God interveins"

2) God does not intervene himself, but alters people's will so they intervene for him. You say: yes and no. "everything God wants to do on the Earth, he chooses to do trough people" - but also "he does not remove our mandate"

Bottom line? I'm confused. I would be tempted to say that this is the result of your skills in English (which are very good, by the way - far better than I could write in any other language!), but sadly it seems to be a fairly standard response from a believer. The wanting to have everything every way, because they know (consciously or unconsciously) that if they pick a particular position and stick to it for everything, their whole belief system would fall apart.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.