Tempest in a Bee Cup: TheWoolyBumblebee expelled from A Voice for Men for making angry men even angrier

More drama at A Voice for Men! Kristina Hansen — the excitable FeMRA videoblogger better known as TheWoolybumblebee — has been tossed off the good ship AVFM by Master and Commander Paul Elam for what he calls her “constant public conflicts with elements of our community.”

You can hear her side of the case in the video below. She claims to be shocked — shocked! — to find that Elam expected his contributors to toe his ideological line. And even more shocked to find him making generalizations about women — something, Ms.Bumblebee claims, that makes him no better than the feminists he criticizes!

Yeah, the trouble with ex-AVFMers is that they were dunderheaded enough to have signed up as AVFMers in the first place. (When we last met her here on Man Boobz she was returning a pair of misandric pants to the store, outraged that a tiny portion of the profits would go to help girls facing oppression in the developing world.)

Before you watch the whole video, though — it’s 14 minutes long — you might want some of the backstory. It’s long and messy, too, but I’ll try to keep it as brief as I can.

First, I should probably note the irony in Elam’s explanation for her dismissal, given that Elam himself is well-known for his own “constant public conflicts” with others in the Men’s Rights movement and the manosphere in general, having launched very public attacks on various others in the past — most notably on Pickup artists — and responding with intemperate anger towards pretty much everyone who even mildly disagrees with him about anything in public.

Elam’s pink-slipping of Ms. Bumblebee is doubly ironic, because one of the issues she’s been involved in “constant public conflicts” about has been MGTOW. (She’s not a fan.)

You might think that wouldn’t be a problem, as A Voice for Men has not exactly been on the best of terms with a big chunk of the MGTOW community for some time. The regulars on MGTOWforums, the biggest MGTOW hub, regularly refer to AVFM as “A Voice for Manginas” and worse; they’re especially offended that Elam lets women — sorry, “cunts” — post there. Elam has responded by denouncing the “MGTOW Forum Fuckwits.” The war of not-so-nice words seems never-ending; for some recent examples on MGTOWforums here and here — and in AVFM’s own forum here.

Ms. Bumblebee has also been saying less than kind things about libertarianism for months on her blog, on YouTube, and on Twitter, where she bluntly declared it a “a cancer within the MRM.”

Turns out that was a bit of a faux pas. Though AVFM pretends to be “apolitical,” and has a few people associated with it who consider themselves liberal, most of the “big names” there — not just Elam but John “the Other” Hembling, and Karen (GirlWritesWhat) Straughan — pretty obviously lean libertarian.

Indeed, in a not-very-friendly comment on Reddit about Ms. Bumblebee’s departure from AVFM, Straughan suggests that she’s essentially a “a child … having a tantrum,” who doesn’t appreciate that the Men’s Rights movement is all about “free thinkers and John Galts.” (Yeah, she really did say that.)

She also accuses Ms. B of not reading enough E Belfort Bax — which is, I have to admit, the first time I’ve ever seen anyone accused of that particular crime in a political debate.

In case you’re not yourself a Baxhead, he was an opponent of women’s suffrage perhaps best known for his 1913 essay “The Fraud of Feminism,” a rather obscure piece of writing that’s having a sort of revival amongst a certain segment of the Men’s Rights movement. Indeed, A Voice for Men recently reprinted a portion of Bax’s essay with a glowing and altogether uncritical introduction by Elam himself.

It’s actually rather revealing. A Voice for Men is happy to republish the work of a long dead author who thought that women should be denied the right to vote. But a live woman who doesn’t agree with Elam about libertarianism or MGTOWers — over the side she goes!

Here’s her video. If you don’t want to watch the whole thing, you could just skip ahead to 5:20 to hear her express her astonishment that Elam would make sweeping generalizations about all women (say it ain’t so!), or to about 7:50 where she sets forth her basic complaint about AVFM and the way she says she was treated by Elam et al.

If you only have a couple of minutes, or limited patience for YouTube videos, at least listen to the excerpts of the testy phone conversation with Elam in which she officially learned she was no longer a part of AVFM; they start at about 10:40.

Ms. B has labeled this video Part 1. I don’t know how many more parts are coming. But I’ll certainly be watching.

For the masochists among you, Elam has put up the entire conversation he had with Ms. B — it’s half an hour long, and I listened to the whole damn thing. I assume he thinks it makes him look better and her look worse, but, you know, it really, really doesn’t. Unless you’re really into patronizing mansplaining and apologias for angry misogyny amongst MRAs and MGTOWers. He concludes by throwing a little fit and hanging up. Or maybe she hangs up. I can’t tell.

Ms. B., when she can get a word in edgewise, makes a lot of very good points in the call, bluntly and directly calling him on his some of his bullshit; it’s only when she starts going on about the evils of feminism that I remember how warped her worldview really is.

Alongside the video, Elam also posted the email he sent Ms. B dismissing her from AVFM, which confirms that he was indeed pissed off by what he calls her “divisive conduct” towards MGTOWers and all those John Galts of the MRM.

Comments

CUTTLEFISH!!! People, if you’re ever in Boston go to the aquarium. Their cuttlefish are all kinds of smart (well, all cuttlefish, but they have other cool shit like a deep sea tank with just a pale blue light so you can made out the nautilus critters without bothering them)

Also, an electric eel. Actually, ALL THE THINGS! The cuttlefish that decided to follow me is my lock screen on the iPad.

Ok, I just typed out eye and went no, *i*pad. I’m going to bed, my brain is done.

We didn’t even have neon gloves – come to that I don’t recall if they gave us latex gloves at all. Just a plunge of the arm into cold salt water (they were fish from Port Phillip, the harbour Melbourne sits on). I think the cowfish were more curious than anything. The nipped my friend every time she fed ’em, but I didn’t get bitten by anything. Maybe fish do understand cat-related threats!

It was the sheer stupidity and cheapness of having the customer service staff expected to do the feeding when 1) none of us knew jack shit about fish and 2) we were doing in our full uniforms, during the day when there were kids swarming around, standing on a stepladder that put us well over head-height, and trying to reach arms-length into the tank with that long tong thingy to get the bottom-feeders. I could only just manage it and the people who were shorter had no chance. It was typical of the Museum cutting corners and being cheap.

I have a terrifying memory of the Boston aquarium.
I was a child, and someone put a sea cucumber in my hands, and the cuke got frightened and regurgitated its stomach in my palms (that’s what they do). I didn’t speak English yet, and I didn’t know how to sign language the situation.
Other than that, seriously, the Boston aquarium is the best I’ve ever seen. Good memories (I love Boston).

Monterey is good too (and the one at UC Santa Cruz… taking Marine Biology in the Bay Area has interesting field trips.. counting a type of “sand flea” on a cold day… nice roads for motorcycle, but COLD!).

I’d like to see more of California. I’d really like to have a longer visit to Yosemite. There are so many beautiful places in the US and Canada I’d like to see. Vermont in autumn, oooh the envy of those colours!

Oh, I understand where you are coming from. When I used to read MRA shit, I never thought about how fucked up they sounded when they actually felt they should be able to hit women, even outside of self defense. You could imagine how jarring that was for me, when all I wanted was equality between genders.

But, I think that desire to hurt women is coming from the fact they aren’t doing anything to improve their lives. Let’s face it, the second an MRA gets some real money and realizes women don’t actually hate him is the second he stops being an MRA and stops blaming women for his problems.

second an MRA gets some real money and realizes women don’t actually hate him

Would you care to explain what you mean by this phrase? Cos not sure what you’re trying to say. Sounds rather like “women will appreciate them if they have money”. Or are you implying that men are only MRAs if they are broke? The former being misogynistic, the latter needing a citation.

I was actually trying to imply MRAs aren’t doing anything productive with the money comment or if they do have money, they are not using it to improve themselves. And with the second part, I was addressing the paranoid attitude MRAs have towards women. The way they post, it’s like they truly think every woman is out to get them.

I just think men are MRAs because some girl broke his heart, or he was abused by some terrible woman and now hates all women because of that. And my experience has shown me that if you are making your own life better (which means work), and don’t believe that everyone is trying to make your life hell, you don’t need something like MGTOW or the MRM.

I watched Paul Elam’s video where he exposes the entire skype conversation with Woolly. A few people pointed out on the comment section that he should’ve edited out the personal information (ie. children’s names and personal email addy) but in typical “Paul Land” this was quickly dismissed as ‘she should’ve known better.’ (insert creepy rape apologist banter here)

However, I think it’s hilarious that JohntheOther is on a bender about Facebook being Femifascist.

I’d be very dubious about some douchecanoe MRA becoming a better person because he’s got more money. Is Elam broke? Are half these creatures broke? I doubt it. A misogynistic scumbag who wants rape to be LEGAL – as Elam does – isn’t going to become a better person just because he’s cashed up.

This idea doesn’t explain the millions of men who’re broke but don’t hate women, or blame their troubles on women, or want to beat and rape us. It doesn’t explain the wealthy or just comfortably-off men who do all those things – or the men with partners who do, as well, the ones in relationships that don’t give them the MRA “out” of being poor sad men who don’t get The Secks. It’s simplistic and still blaming women to say “he had his heart broken” or “he was abused”. Hello, not good enough. Is it okay when someone who was abused as a child then abuses other children? Is that an acceptable excuse? No, it isn’t.

And yanno … I don’t actually give a shit about what’s got these MRAs and MGTOWs into the state they’re in. I don’t care two hoots about their inner turmoil or their finances. What I care about is what they want to do to women, or to LGBT people, and what they actually do with their doxxing and their harrassment and violence.

These are men who want me and everyone like me unable to work, unable to get an education, unable to live independently of a man, unable to vote, unable even to have a choice in when or if I have sex or breed. These are men who want to commit violent crimes against half the world with complete impunity. These are men who admire murderers like George Sodini and Marc Lepine and say women need to be utterly subservient if we’re not going to DESERVE the same treatment as their victims.

Fuck them, fuck their sob stories, fuck their claims of ownership, and fuck excuses for them.

Yeah, that sounds an awful lot like “women only date guys with money, so once he gets women he’ll get some dates and stop being so bitter.”

And your attempt at explanation just sounds like women aren’t intereste in ordinary guys. A guy has to work hard to be interesting to women.

And some MRAs might be MRAs because they’ve had a bad experience, but some of them are like that because they are abusers and don’t like being told not to, or they are reacting very badly to being told that straight white men are not, in fact, special. Plenty of people are able to see “the person who hurt me” as an individual and not part of a monolith.

I agree, but I know of 2 ex-MRAs who got over their hatred. One of them is a feminist now.
With this I mean that while most of them are misogynists, some of them don’t know where they’re at. Probably because they are just stupid teenagers or are mistaken about the real goals of the MRM (bashing women and whining, basically).

Seeing your privilege is difficult. I knew that I was privileged because I’m white and European, but I didn’t really grasp what this meant until I compared my situation as a pansexual woman to that of people of color. So I can imagine that someone that has all the privileged cards has to do some effort to empathize. Also, teenagers are not very good at empathizing.

Please keep in mind that I don’t think this is an excuse for misogyny, but I still have hope that some MRAs will realize they are part of a hate group and, eventually, stop being sexist douchebags.

I’m not saying that if they get money, they will get dates. Maybe I phrased it wrong, but the point is that MRAs don’t do anything for their own movement or themselves. I just said, “get real money” because hopefully, they would do something in order to get it. And good hard work can do wonders for people, even beyond the money earned from it.

I mean, really, who seems like a better person? A man who bitches online about women all day and doing almost nothing to improve their own lives or a man who hits a roadblock and decides to overcome it? Maybe I should get to the meat of my opinion of MRAs and just say that they are entitled brats who don’t want to work for a better life, not just financially, but emotionally as well. Maybe if they got a job or volunteered, an MRA would learn that maybe women aren’t evil from just talking to them.

I just think men are MRAs because some girl broke his heart, or he was abused by some terrible woman and now hates all women because of that.

Men become MRAs for the same reason whites join the KKK or rich people fund fascist/radically anti-left-wing parties. It’s a backlash reaction against losing their power over others. I’m willing to accept “a girl broke his heart” as an explanation if by “broke his heart” you really mean “dared being an actual person with her own life independant of his codependency/controlling personality, which eventually lead to a break up”.

Also, by appearance, I wasn’t critiquing the way I look in the usual sense; I think just think it would be cool to grow a tail or have pointy cat ears or gills/fins, turn myself various colors- stuff that happens in Harry Potter vs. Cosmo

I’d love that. Mostly if I could get kitty cat ears and a tail 😀

Too tired to figure out if Detached is here in good faith or not, but:

And good hard work can do wonders for people, even beyond the money earned from it.

Really rubs me the wrong way. I don’t think ‘good hard work’ can really do wonder for people, especially since I get tired of people telling me if I just try harder to do shit I wouldn’t be depressed…idk if this is making any sense…but that’s how it sounded to me. Maybe if they were working more they’d have less time to hate on the internet? But lots of people chill on the internet in their off time…just not seeing how ‘good hard work’ can help…

And, my unreasonable demands, cuz I wanna play 😀

1) A tail and kitten ears, just because.

2) A kitten.

3) A ball python, and my mom to be magically okay with me getting one (she hates cuteness).

Could it be that MRAs, like every other group of people, are not monolith? So they may have any number of reasons for becoming or ceasing to be MRAs. For some of them it may be a temporary phase in the initial misery of a broken relationship. For too many of them, it looks like any excuse to join the abusers’ lobby.

[quote]Really rubs me the wrong way. I don’t think ‘good hard work’ can really do wonder for people, especially since I get tired of people telling me if I just try harder to do shit I wouldn’t be depressed…idk if this is making any sense…but that’s how it sounded to me. Maybe if they were working more they’d have less time to hate on the internet? But lots of people chill on the internet in their off time…just not seeing how ‘good hard work’ can help…[/quote]

Actually, I completely understand. For a long, long time I felt pretty down, mostly over regrets and rejections. And I hated, HATED being told, “You really need a girlfriend, pal” or anything like that. And maybe this is a case of us having different personalities, but after a point I realized I should improve my life in the present, make a better future, and maybe then the past mistakes I’ve made won’t matter as much. Getting a job forced me into situations that made me learn about myself and the world, and as such, made me a better person overall. That’s why I put so much stock into work, not just a 9 to 5 job, but work that improves your/someone else’s life (such as DIY projects or soup kitchens). The people you meet and the trails you walk actually have more value than the money you earn. I’ve earn thousands of dollars working for different companies, but earned billions worth in memories and life lessons working with people.

First, if you want to do blockquotes [blockquote] text [/blockquote] but with < instead of [

Second,

For a long, long time I felt pretty down, mostly over regrets and rejections.

See, my problem isn’t with being rejected, it’s with a chemical imbalance in the brain. But you keep on fucking that chicken.

And maybe this is a case of us having different personalities, but after a point I realized I should improve my life in the present, make a better future, and maybe then the past mistakes I’ve made won’t matter as much

Yeah, because us silly depressed people don’t ever try to improve our lives! Silly me, if only I’d do something instead of being depressed.

Pro tips, asshole (and no, I do not feeling like playing polite with you today):

1) Hard to work when getting up is hard. First step for me was getting some damn anti depressants.
2) It’s cute you think trying to do things has never occurred to me. It has. I do try to. I just finished a job, and am trying to find another. I just don’t like fuckers like you acting like this has never occurred to me. I know. I get fed this shit all the fucking time. Don’t need anymore assholes trying to pass it off like it’s a new idea. It’s not. It’s a very fucking old one.

Getting a job forced me into situations that made me learn about myself and the world, and as such, made me a better person overall

Getting a job let me learn many things, like I’m not ready for an eight hour one again, because by the end I was getting very fucking anxious, and more depressed.

The people you meet and the trails you walk actually have more value than the money you earn

Ignoring how fucking cheesy this is, there are places to meet people besides work.

Now how about you drop this til you get a new shtick, okay cupcake?* 😉

*Anyone who’s not a troll can tell me if I’m being a huge asshole. But I’m just so tired of this shit, hence all the vulgarity, and zero fucks about Detached’s fee-fees.

I too have a chemical imbalance in the brain which mad me suicidal when I was in my early twenties. I also had social phobia and anxiety problems (the latter, I still do). So I get it when you say this: “Hard to work when getting up is hard. First step for me was getting some damn anti depressants.” But I don’t think Detached was being insensitive on purpose. I think everyone has experiences of their own and he was just explaining his, without realizing that social interaction isn’t easy for all of us.

::Shrugs:: What was harsh besides the vulgarity? I mean, I know I said ‘tell me if I’m being an asshole’ but I’d kind of like a how, instead of just ‘harsh’. I may be being more confrontational than usual because I’m just so tired with this stuff…I don’t know if I’m making any sense…

Marie, you called him asshole, and you sounded angry. I think that if that comment were directed to me I would feel sad. I have the habit of trying to be in the skin of other people… I don’t know if it’s a good habit or a bad habit yet. Maybe both.

But you make sense. I know what you’re talking about, I really do. And sometimes I also snap.

I don’t know if ‘snap’ was right either. But yeah, you’re right, it probably would have been better to be more polite. I just tend to get tired of this stuff. I mean, on one hand Detached didn’t mean it in a hurtful way, so reacting angrily wasn’t really the best thing, but on the other hand I just don’t really like feeling like I owe people politeness when they say something like that. Idk if I’m making any sense. I probably should try to un-morning-ify my brain.

*Anyone who’s not a troll can tell me if I’m being a huge asshole. But I’m just so tired of this shit, hence all the vulgarity, and zero fucks about Detached’s fee-fees.

I don’t think you’re being harsh Marie. This exchange reminded me of a Captain Awkward post (and of course I can’t find it now), where someone wrote in about being down because of a shitty BF and weight gain. Intially some commenters chimed in with the typcial “how about walking?” “Have you tried eating more fruit?” etc. Those commenters have good intentions, but they don’t realize this is basic shit everyone knows, so no need to repead that ad nauseum.

I don’t have depression, Sir Briz does – guys, he just left for Afghanistan for four months. No guarantee of a good wifi connenction for skype. 🙁 – but he has told me similar frustrations when people try to talk to him about his depression. At one point someone said: “Can’t you just…stop being sad?” UGH!

Aruba – once an MRA isn’t an MRA any longer, fine. There are a few Manboozers who fit that description, and they’re fine people. But the MRAs we quote here? The ones wallowing in hate? They can get back to us when they’ve decided to rejoin humanity instead of hating half of it. More than half, given what racists, homophobes and trans*phobes they are.

Aruba, Detached’s comments coming on top of the ones that had a certain “oh poor MRAs” sound to them were a bit much. Like Marie, I’m not sure zie’s here in good faith, either. The “people just need to get a job and make $$$$!” shit is irritating me, too. Hard work =/= satisfying work even when it’s possible to do it. It also doesn’t equal making a living wage. Just ask any waitstaff.

Yeah, after all my fighting with SSI, I am definitely sick of “well maybe if you just tried some sort of work it wouldn’t make you suicidal”. Like no, I will not be improving my life through a job, nor any other endeavor that causes me to get all self-blame when I get too depressed to deal with it.

Speaking of whom, just got back from the vet for her six-month checkup (she’s very healthy and has lost a smidgin of weight – yay!). My arms are now covered in scratches from trying to get her into her basket, and she had her revenge by taking a dump in the basket on the way up there. Now she’s lying around looking like she’s the one who had to do all the work!

Picture Jack and Rose on that little bitty board at the end of Titanic. Now put about 20 more people on it. Now give them all axes and let them start chopping it to bits so they don’t have to associate with the people they don’t like. That’s what reading about feuds in the MRA herd is like. Dudes, you don’t have enough people to have feuds.

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