I've noticed more and more people commenting that they don't like the criticism they receive when they post negative things about the lottery. That's a bummer, I know I have fallen prey to less than enlightened motives myself. So, here's an opportunity for everyone who wants to brainstorm ways to improve the system to try and give some helpful feedback.

This is NOT a place to come up with conspiracy theories, whine, or criticize other people who are genuinely trying to help - on either side of the discussion.

Here's what you need to do-1) read the official information about the Lottery. Don't make the mistake of not knowing what you're talking about. http://tickets2.burningman.com/faq.php2) maybe skim a few threads of other people's ideas, so you know what ideas are just out the window because of factors that are out of our control (there's a handy search box in the upper right corner)3) try not to drive angry post when you're real upset about something very specific to you. e.g. if your credit card was stolen and you had to cancel it - that's not the lotterys fault. It's probably not your fault, either.4) Try really hard not to repeat the same idea that someone else posted, without responding to any particular obstacles that idea might create. For instance, don't say "names on the tickets - problem solved" without telling us how the Gate would be able to handle the extra workload. 5) if you're someone who might want to defend the current system, or who might want to help refine these brainstorms, please lay off the sarcasm. Let's see if we as a community can have a nice civil discussion about this.

There's one other guideline that I'd like to try and set: don't be a pessimist.

Please don't tell us how this idea will never work. We'll all find out with great certainty if it works or not. When will we find out? By Labor day, maybe earlier. So, while it's totally fair to try and come up with a solution that allows theme camps more time to plan (if that's what you are concerned with), it's not particularly helpful to just criticize the current - as yet not completed - system.

ZaphodBurner wrote:The difference between buying a ticket from a scalper and prostituting yourself for one is, if you suck dick for a ticket and brag about it, burners will still respect you.

I like this idea for a thread and I do hope that we can have some good discussions and find out ways to agree on what went right, what went wrong, and where things need to improve.

So here goes:

I think that the main place things went wrong was with the tiered ticketing prices. As evidence I point to the fact that the pre-sale ticketing lottery went off without a hitch. Everyone who entered got tickets, no sparkly ponies were sad. Compare that to the main sale where people were incentivized to purchase at multiple levels, not only to improve their odds, but also to improve the price their final tickets would cost.

I'm guessing (and it just a guess) that most of the extra tickets went to burners and will be sold through STEP, or at least at face value.

And here is my suggestion for a solution that would keep a form of tiered ticket prices, but might help to eliminate the current problems. (it also might just suck ... but at least I tried ) viewtopic.php?f=290&t=53539#p786105

I have a very strong feeling that there will be a glut of tickets at some point in the near future. I think enough people will dismiss 2012 for the uncertainty of tickets, and 50,000+ tickets will be more than enough for everyone. This will cause prices to stay at face value, and leave scalpers with so many unsold tickets that they will probably be discounted just to unload them. Think this scenario through.

@Karma_cat - I think you may be on to something with the tiers causing people to register in different ways. I can certainly see the logic in eliminating the tiers (I've only gotten a tier 1 ticket when I've bought it off another burner). However, I think a lot of people would be upset if there weren't a chance at a lower price option. I wonder if we could pull off one more lottery, that was only low tier tickets? I have no idea when it should be held, though.

@Fastsnail - At face value this idea intrigued me. I haven't been able to find solutions for the related obstacles that others have identified.

A huge delay at Gate (this could threaten backup onto 447, which might make the BLM lower the population cap!)An additional burden on the Org for the ticketing process, each ticket will be time intensive. This isn't just a cost issue, but possibly also a logistical issue (e.g. where do you put all the people who answer the emails from people asking to change their name or refund their ticket)The potential of not being able to pull this off without a trial run. If we have barcode scanners, what happens when they go down for an hour? What if a plane flies overhead and screws with the wifi and that scanner says you're not legit? What if you spill coffee on your ticket and it smears the barcode/picture/name?What if that lovely volunteer at BMHQ goes too long without a break and starts misspelling names? - I guess the gist of all these is that because we only have one gate, and it's hundreds of miles from a "real" city, any small hiccup would create a mountain of consequences.

I don't think snail mail refund is feasible for people who aren't in the U.S., but I could be wrong.

ZaphodBurner wrote:The difference between buying a ticket from a scalper and prostituting yourself for one is, if you suck dick for a ticket and brag about it, burners will still respect you.

Historical context: 2011 was the first year that tickets sold out for Burning Man. For the first time, scalping became a major issue, not so much because of its relatively limited effects for the 2011 Burning Man, but more because of the effects on future Burning Man tickets and scalping now that ticket sell-outs will be an established feature of Burning Man.

In light of the sell-out in 2011, BMOrg's first and foremost goal for the 2012's ticket sale system was to mitigate the effect of scalpers on ticket sales. Most important, this year,being the first after the first sell-out, must send a signal to scalpers that Burning Man is a less-desirable event to attempt to scalp ticket for. In effect, 2012's ticket sale system must send a good "first impression" of the post-sell-out ticket selling system.

Scalping mitigation strategies:

Scalping mitigation in 2012 employs three different strategies: first, the implementation of a random ticket drawing system, known colloquially as "the lottery," for the majority of tickets; second, the postponement of ticket delivery until some 3-5 months after tickets are sold; third, the creation of a ticket selling/trading system enforcing price rules.

The lottery is meant as an anti-scalping system. The assumption with the lottery is that no matter what system is in place, tickets will be sold out about mid-March. The lottery is therefore meant to control how those tickets are distributed, mainly to reduce the ability for scalpers to purchase large numbers of tickets at a time. This is effected in two ways: 1) denying a purchaser the ability to test methods to game the system; 2) concentrating attention on a single ticket purchasing event in order to dilute the effects of scalping. Problems with server loads from previous years is mostly a secondary issue.

The first tactic prevents a purchaser/denier from testing, for example, whether blacklisted accounts are still blacklisted; it also prevents automated ticket purchasing systems from operating freely. The second tactic draws upon the ticket-selling conditions of 2011: in 2011, many Burners were caught without a ticket because they waited until late in the year to purchase under the assumption that tickets would still be available. The lottery this year forces Burners to purchase tickets early and while they're still available; this ensures that scalpers are not given extra time to operate while others are unaware that ticket stocks are running low. Causing a "run" on tickets means all parties are involved, not just those who understand the post-sell-out conditions best (i.e. the scalpers).

Issues that are inevitably brought up with the lottery:

- The lottery promotes hoarding because of uncertainty surrounding receiving a ticket. Yes it does! However, that is initial ticket hoarding. Whether that translates into those tickets not being recycled back into the system remains to be seen, and is a reason a ticket exchange system is being implemented. There is also the open sale of 1/5th of the tickets in March.

- The hoarding is evidence that the lottery has failed us. That would be true if preventing hoarding was the first purpose of the lottery; however, it is not. The lottery is to prevent scalping. While a scalper can be considered a type of hoarder, other systems are in place to make it a less desirable venture.

- Everybody is entered into the cheaper tiers, whether they can afford it or not--hurting less fortunate burners. True, but that does not necessarily imply that the implied result would not occur anyway. People choosing to buy a more expensive tier than those available are by far the micro-minority.

- The lottery obviates the need for tiers at all! Not true. The tiers still enable people to choose a maximum ticket price, which is the reason they still exist.

- The lottery is causing all tickets to be sold early, instead of later when Burners will have their money ready. It will exclude many burners. That is operating under that tickets would not be sold out by that point under other systems. The assumption is, however, that no matter what system is in place, the tickets will be sold-out about mid-March. The lottery is therefore a system to control how those tickets are distributed.

- The ticket exchange occurring in June is too late in the year, and will cause planning hiccups. Yes, it certainly could. That does assume, however, that no tickets could be had before that time. There is an open-sale in early March, and for those involved in larger-scale projects (camps, MVs, projects), there is often a large network of people who would have purchased ("hoarded") tickets themselves. For smaller scale needs, the June exchange may be the way to go. Most people will be able to get their ticket in the March sale if they did not get one through the lottery. Furthermore, nothing is stopping you from preparing for the trip in the mean time.

- Some people will inevitably be left behind. That will be part of any system, and especially one designed to combat bad actors. If the lottery is a bad idea, what would change in some other system.

Personal opinion:

I would have actually preferred not to have the lottery because I think I would've been able to get in on one of the early tiers like I did last year; however, I don't think the original system would have been a good policy to reduce scalping. The lottery, as a policy to reduce the effects of scalping, is not perfect, but may serve its purpose. We currently have very little data on scalping and Burning Man. It may even be that the lottery serves its purpose only as a first-sell-out tactic and that we can move into different regimes as we understand the scalping problem better. I'm waiting to see.

"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

The really interesting thing to me was how much smoother the presale went compared to the primary sale. It is interesting that people seem ready to sell their own grandmother to get a ticket in the main sale in January, but didn't feel the need to sign up in December.

The only real difference is that one sale had $420 tickets, and the other $240 tickets. It seems that the $240 tickets are what turn otherwise ordinary people into Gollum-like creatures lusting after "the precious".

Although I never participated in the server rush, it also seems that a mad dash for the coveted Tier-1 ticket has been going on for some time. In these rough economic times (or any economic times really) it is very hard for an individual to really determine what their discretionary income really is, and how essential it is to them to go to Burning Man, and how far they can stretch themselves. Understandably, people seem convinced that the $240 ticket is as far as they can stretch, and another $80-160 is out of reach - or at least many people are convinced that they are in exactly the financial situation that Tier-1 is designed for.

I think that it is also easy to think along the lines of, "I am already contributing $1400 in parts, and 100 hours in labor for this awesome mutant vehicle, I barely have anything left for the actual ticket." People feel - justifiably - that they already contributed $1400 to the community, they shouldn't have to pay or cannot pay the additional $150 for a Tier-3 ticket. Unfortunately it cannot work that way, everyone has to "pay their association fees" - so to speak - to the core infrastructure of the city so that the amazing MVs can roam around making the event what it is. Just about everyone would rather spend more money on cool art, camps, costumes, etc... then on the porta-potties. (we really, really, really, need the porta-potties though)

With this in mind, I feel rather confident that the process would go smoother, and the lower tiers would get to the people that really need them, if the lotteries were separated, and the most expensive tiers sold first.

Have the pre-sale lottery at $420 for two weeks to sign up, then two weeks to distribute.

Then do a Tier-3 lottery in the same way in January, the Tier-2 in February, finally the Tier-1 in March, and low-income program in April. This would send more money to the BMorg quickly, as the expensive tickets sell first. This would also allow financially distressed burners time to get their tax returns in order, which does make things easier for many people.

This would also discourage scalping. Who wants to buy a $390 ticket when $320 tickets will be on sale in a month. It would be very difficult to scalp a shady promise of a ticket in June at $450+ when cheaper tickets are about to be sold.

I can and will pay the $160 difference between tiers, but it will likely mean that I will go a month or two without auto insurance. I don't really party or go out to speak of. I don't see what else I'll cut. Right now, I'm just a substitute teacher, and that's definitely below the poverty line. I'll apply for low income I guess. I'm not being negative. They'll stop laying off teacher and start hiring again, but then I'll never go to Burning Man again because school starts before Labor Day. LOL

The camp with a differenceNever mind the weatherWhen you camp with Plug & PlyYour holiday's forever

Rolling the low income and scholarship tickets into one program, with proof of financial need, seems to be a good idea. Of course, the objection is the other costs associated with a week in the desert, which do outstrip ticket cost. Question: should recipients of such tickets need to outline their survival and transportation plans?

AntiM wrote:Rolling the low income and scholarship tickets into one program, with proof of financial need, seems to be a good idea. Of course, the objection is the other costs associated with a week in the desert, which do outstrip ticket cost. Question: should recipients of such tickets need to outline their survival and transportation plans?

I'd be happy to answer the financial outlays if they were to ask. As far as expenses go, it's just a camping trip. I live close, drive a Toyota motorhome that gets 20 mpg, have all camping equipment, can stand Pabst PBR, bring tap water, etc. It is definitely easier for locals.

The camp with a differenceNever mind the weatherWhen you camp with Plug & PlyYour holiday's forever

I would like to make multiple posts on this subject, i wish that my individual posts remain in this thread, even though i may have expressed an idea or two previously in another thread. I thank the mod in advance for this courtesy and i am very respectful of your volunteer work for this organization.

- A gentleman previously said that he worked for, or with, Ticketmaster for many years (unverified), and that the only way they found to eliminate the scalping problem is to match a name to a ticket. The ticketing folks within the BMORG should contact him, and talk with him at length on his recommendations for how to go forward from here on both the follow-on sale and how to do ticket sales for next year. (I'll follow this up with a post about ideas how a name match could be implemented with hopefully fewer problems than are occurring with the lottery system this year)

- Another way of looking at the problem of more demand than supply is to reduce demand. Other than ordering up a 2007 type dust storm again, but letting people know about that and that 2010's beautiful weather was a total anomaly won't hurt Please don't just throw up your hands at the issue of working to reduce demand to match the available supply, there are many creative people within the community who can come up with great ideas, like 5280MeV's idea below to reduce demand for the initial tickets.

- I ABSOLUTELY LOVE 5280MeV's IDEA OF HAVING A SECOND LOTTERY OF LOWER PRICED TICKETS AFTER A FIRST HIGHER PRICED ONE! This would expand upon the situation this year of the $420 lottery going well, and this one having many unhappy participants. I really believe that the tiered prices system should be eliminated to reduce the gaming of it, as apparently is being seriously considered for 2013, but this idea of having a second smaller lottery of lower priced tickets would "probably" allow those of us who are really serious about contributing to know that we can make it to the playa. If a system like this could be set up correctly, that is.

theCryptofishist wrote:I guess that at some point I object to the incessant proof of poverty. Some fiscal privacy--and human dignity--ought to remain. IMHO.

as we saw in some other threads some people feel compelled/forced to game the system if the system is not designed to make it impossible.

i think the need to show financial documents (new to any low income program) were was likely implemented at some point to avoid this..

(the reaction to last years lowincome/scholarship programs probably informed them about how it would happen this year..... 2011 it was open a month and a half before topping the limit, 2010 three and a half months.. and again in 2009 about three and a half months..)

theCryptofishist wrote:I was reacting to the "proof of ability to do the rest of the burn" more than the actual low-income ticket rules.

I don't really approve of that aspect, just wondered what other opinions on it might be. Often, if a burner can get a ticket in hand, their burner buddies have the resources to get them there and back, fed, watered and sheltered.

I really think that a name-ticket match could be implemented with far fewer problems than this year's lottery.

- People are over thinking this one. All that's needed is a name printed with indelible ink on the ticket. There doesn't have to be a photo on it, or matched to an address, or scanners, or anything at all.

- The purpose of doing this is twofold, it would get scalpers out of the game and it would reduce the over-demand for tickets. It would reduce demand by eliminating the over ordering of tickets by trying to play the lottery. If a few people won't come to the playa since they don't want to show ID at the gate, so be it. That would be their decision, a touch less demand for tickets then.

- There is no need to have positive proof that the person bearing the ticket is the person who's name is on the ticket. A quick glance at the ticket and the ID card held by the person would be sufficient. Even this quick glance would eliminate nearly all scalpers from the system, virtually no one would buy a ticket from a scalper, especially at the above face value that a scalper needs to charge, with someone else's name on it. If this cuts scalping down to under 100 tickets, it's a total success, no need to cut it down to absolute zero.

- The ticket taken process is a two step process: search the vehicle, which is the time consuming part causing the backups, and then the very quick taking of the tickets by a different person up ahead of the search person. Doing a minimal name-ticket match won't increase backups, since the backups are not caused by the actual taking of the tickets.

- I agree that there will be more people needing to be routed to will call for ticket issues. If a name doesn't match a ticket, charge them a $200 or so "unauthorized transfer fee" which can be paid at will call. Will call can be expanded to a larger tent or structure to have this occur, and a few more people would need to staff it.

- I know that this would require a few more gate people, I would be glad to work gate. I took the Ranger training last year, instead of Gate, because the Rangers had 10+ trainings all over the West Coast and a couple in other parts of the country. Gate had only one training, I believe, in SF, and none elsewhere prior to the event. A recommendation for Gate is to follow the Ranger's lead and have multiple trainings in multiple cities. SoCal would be nice

- I know that this would take more clerical people at BM offices. Pay the extra people performing this service, and fund it by taking a fee out of people returning tickets for a refund. Heck, do it the same as this year by not mailing out tickets until summer so these returns and additional tickets can be handled on the computer rather than with physical tickets.

I know that a name-ticket match would be a touch of extra work, but I really think that this is implementable without major issues, as long as the name-ticket match is kept very simple.

A Jester wrote:@Karma_cat - I think you may be on to something with the tiers causing people to register in different ways. I can certainly see the logic in eliminating the tiers (I've only gotten a tier 1 ticket when I've bought it off another burner). However, I think a lot of people would be upset if there weren't a chance at a lower price option. I wonder if we could pull off one more lottery, that was only low tier tickets? I have no idea when it should be held, though.

LIKES:

I really like your idea of holding multiple lotteries ... especially (as was mentioned by 5280MeV) if the expensive tickets are sold first and cheaper tiers are sold later.

Not sending out physical tickets until June/July

NEW IDEA

Regarding names on tickets ... It is clear that BMORG knows there are people who are opposed to the named ticket idea. But what if we had a voluntary system for putting your name on a ticket, and if you Don't want your name on a ticket that's fine ... but you have to pick it up at Will Call with a receipt number. This would allow people to remain anonymous and greatly disincentive people from buy non-named tickets from anywhere other than Burning Man directly ... how can a scalper scalp if he can't actually give you a ticket?

For people who DO buy named tickets ... there would have to be a process whereby tickets could be changed to non-named will call tickets for a small processing fee ($10-$20) PRIOR to tickets being sent out.

End result: Either your name is on your ticket OR you must go to will call.

Edit: Also ... it's not like every ticket will need to be checked to make sure that the name matches. Just the chance that your name MIGHT be checked against a ticket will largely prevent people from making the huge outlay of resources needed to get out to BRC.

Last edited by karma_cat on Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

the only issue names on tickets really deals with, as i see it, is scalping.. (scalping is legal in nevada)

im not sure if we have much info on how much of a problem scalping of tickets actually is, or if scalping actually is a problem at all. we only first had a chance for scalping to work well one time, last year... there is a lot of speculation, fear and hand-wringing about the possibility of scalping.. but save for a few examples early last year.. im not sure if we could really say it was rampant..

holding fulfillment of ticket orders until months after ordering as well as random selection of 'winners' and proactive 'scrubbing' of lists seems like an effective group of measures against organized scalping...

individuals scalping doesnt really seem like much of a great concern to me.. surely, in my opinion, not great enough of a concern to justify losing the ability to gift a ticket and surely not worth creating a greater burden on the Gate (and possibly draw the ire of the BLM/LEOs if we block the main road)

the way i see it creating a mandated name on ticket program would effectively leave us exactly where we began but now with more resources being spent, more people working, more logistical challenges..more costs.. all to stop the issue of scalping.... which still, even if it is a rip off, gets the tickets into peoples hands

and as we saw in the Ticket FAQ.. the LLC has already weighed the options and clearly do not see names on tickets as a viable solution to any problems..

we would still have more people who want to go than we have tickets availablewe would still have a bigass long wait at the gate... likely made longer...but now we wouldnt be able to gift/buy tickets for friends/lovedones/camps/projects

theCryptofishist wrote:Anything that results in more people going to will call is likely to be exceedingly problematic and slow down the entries. Also, that's where you do need an id, with reason.

Let's just stipulate that anything that slows the line down is a non-starter?

Well anything that would majorly slow down the line should probably be reconsidered. But if the ID checks in line were random and not taking up too much time that might be worthwhile. Especially because chances are most people would go for the named tickets. Even if a full 1,000 extra want to go to will call over the course of the week-long entry ... that's not terrible. And this completely stops scalping.

karma_cat wrote:Well anything that would majorly slow down the line should probably be reconsidered. But if the ID checks in line were random and not taking up too much time that might be worthwhile. Especially because chances are most people would go for the named tickets. Even if a full 1,000 extra want to go to will call over the course of the week-long entry ... that's not terrible. And this completely stops scalping.

the thing that would need to be considered is if scalping/hoarding is enough of a concern to justify the logistical/workload/etc challenges of a name-based system

as names on tickets wont truly address the issue of scarcity we would still have to have a lottery..

While names on tickets might deal with the burners gaming the system or 'hoarding' tickets it would also have other ramifications.. such as needing to know whom each ticket is for at the time of ordering, lots of people flake out and dont end up going, thus creating more logistical/workload problems for the event staff and eliminating the ability to easily gift a ticket

whether scalping or hoarding is eliminated or not our community needs to deal with the issue that more people want to go than there are tickets

only the LLC would know how many tickets were printed vs. how many were actually used in 2011.. it is a fair bet that most tickets printed and purchased (whether 'legit', hoarded or scalped) in 2011 were used to actually attend the event..

I think if we assume that most of the tickets printed end up being used to attend the event (even if some people got ripped off by a scalper, and even if hoarders forced people to buy from the secondary market) we end up with a situation where creating extra hoops to jump through to get a ticket only ends up assuring that a few more people get a ticket from the LLC itself instead of a secondary market... effectively creating extra burden and logistical problems to give more people a feeling of safety/security/assuredness/peaceofmind

in the end, as i see it, it's a wash... where all of the effort put in place in putting names on tickets only serves to create more barriers in distributing the tickets which will end up in the hands of participants anyways when using a non-name-based-system.. whether they were scalped or hoarded or not we still have more people who want to go than we have tickets available

so, this begs the question, what is the benefit of the name-on-ticket system, other than giving a few more people peace of mind that they wont have to go through a secondary market?

I really like karma_cat's reasoned and thought out approaches and her responses trying to improve on various ideas, on this thread and on other threads. And i like several other regular posters having positive comments on stuff, there are ideas out there which can help improve the distribution of tickets to people who really want to go to this event and make a contribution.

Lemur wrote:> having names on tickets doesnt fix the problem of scarcity> the only issue names on tickets really deals with, as i see it, is scalping.. (scalping is legal in nevada)

Having names on tickets does reduce the problem of scarcity on the initial ticket sales because people can't over-order tickets. It reduces the initial demand for tickets so that people who want to plan ahead and really care deeply about attending Burning Man are at an advantage to people who don't. The people who care enough to plan camps, art, art cars, and other contributions have a much greater chances of knowing that they can make it to the playa, and they are some of the people who are most PO'ed at the system this year. This would help. They are the ones who help make this event be so incredible through their goodwill, and should be favored in any ticket distribution system.

If one would like to gift tickets to others who didn't plan ahead, they could either ask them early or pray tickets are available later. Anyways, the system should be set up to favor people who plan ahead, of which the amazing contributors are included, over stuff like last minute gift tickets.

Positivity, and being willing to work together in a positive manner are wonderful attributes.

I ABSOLUTELY LOVE 5280MeV's IDEA OF HAVING A SECOND LOTTERY OF LOWER PRICED TICKETS AFTER A FIRST HIGHER PRICED ONE! This would expand upon the situation this year of the $420 lottery going well, and this one having many unhappy participants. I really believe that the tiered prices system should be eliminated to reduce the gaming of it, as apparently is being seriously considered for 2013, but this idea of having a second smaller lottery of lower priced tickets would "probably" allow those of us who are really serious about contributing to know that we can make it to the playa. If a system like this could be set up correctly, that is.

I too like the idea of tier lotterys highest to lowest with remaning tickets (if any) going to the next lottery.

This risk/reward for a scalper in the earlier lotteries go up and the people who want to pay top dollar to be there can. As discussed it also allows BMOrg to have money up front and early as needed. I think we almost had that this year with the presale to main lottery its just the main lottery has 3 different price groups dumped together and scalpers do have every reason to enter the lottery while they had little to enter the presale. the more tiers being awarded consecutively highest to lowest makes it hard for the scalpers to find the best time to make their money and makes it easier for dedicated burners AND theme camps. With theme camps the core people who need to be there can enter for those early high price high tier tickets and the rest can opt for lower tiers at a possibly lower chance of getting a ticket. Anyone entered in to a higher tier that didn't get a ticket could be automatically entered into the next tier and so on. To me the this seems like the best way to ward off scalpers by making them hit a moving target with no guarantees, to encourage burners who can afford the highest price to pay the highest price, and to give theme camps the best way to ensure the people they need there get there.