I still like ZackG's basic idea for Sutch, though perhaps adjusted to make up for the fact that Morrowind doesn't really "do" cliffs.

You can do cliffside towns actually pretty easily, assuming that you have some basic objects that enable you to do so. And even without them Scamp managed to make some really badass grotto on Stirk, after all.

There are big, grass covered boulders I made for SHOTN that can easily create the illusion of terrain going on above. We could create the cliffside town below them, if we wanted. It's only a possibility, though.

Nice input there, Roerich.

When the whole layout- and architecture question has been settled, we should brainstorm and create a list of the important factions and buildings in the town aswell, I think.

I don't think a lake would work like that, geographically speaking - you need to have tributaries running towards the lake, not only away, or the whole thing would dry up.

You could have some fountains directly coming off the cliff and flowing down in rills. I would not create the cliffs 100% from the cliff tiles. We could have parts cluttered with rocks instead and having the water flow in between them, for example.

roerich wrote:- Name the fortress-palace "The Ruby" or "The Ruby Palace"

I don't think that's really really appropriate here. This is a rural border-fortress, without any strong Imperial or Redguard royalty backing it - a bit too grandiose a name, in my opinion. Besides, ruby-themed iconography as a whole is associated with the Imperial Heartland and Legion presence over there.

roerich wrote:Oh I know about the last part, but an earlier thread on Sutch had it named "The Ruby West" or something like that, but I suspect that's older P:C lore.

Nothing I know of, but I haven't been around for too long. Anyway, the Gold Coast should be solid gold, I think - no gems.

Who is the ruler of Sutch? A vassal of Anvil, obviously, but as a nobleman, an administrator, representative of the countess, or military leader? We could expand on Colovia's supposed feudal system by making him a viscount or a baron or something.

That's an interesting term, but a bit too Redguard-esque for the Imperial ruler. I like it, though: perhaps the Kali Mes leader or an envoy from the Forebear party could have the title - or whoever rules the city after it is reclaimed.

As historical terms or in more remote areas, perhaps. In the modern Imperial noble class, we may want to avoid reinventing the wheel here. Baron would be appropriate and fitting with the existing titles of count and duke.

OK, I have some more concepts for the city, but I'l have to refine the concept art before I'm going to show it to you. What do you think about the following concepts?

- The site chosen for a Forebear fortification because of the very easily defendable location. The rocky area to the North not being easily traversed and the steep cliffs providing good defense, while still overlooking the river and the lake as well as the southern plains of the Gold Coast.- The Western road ascending the cliff being narrow and steep (and thus prompting the building of the lift)- The cliffside looking sort of like this: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/726 ... de%201.png (without the elevator lift)- The cliffside "the hanging city" not having any proper path, but instead 1. a network of inner staircases as well as wooden balconies, walkways, stairs etc. on the outside and 2. an exterior "elevator" lift I'm trying to get a good design of. I have some different design on the hand, but this is the most basic shape: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/726 ... evator.png I will elaborate on the inner workings etc. and various design ideas.- More to come

Good point, Saint_Jiub. I don't think we should get too creative with titles. More to the east, perhaps...

@roerisch: I really like that concept. Keep it up!

A proposal for the harbor: instead of having it by the lake itself, Sutch could have a kind of sea-port village to the west, from where all goods are brought by cart. This to avoid the whole mess of making Morrowind's rivers deep and wide enough for sailing, not to mention issues with bridges.

Let's talk economics:Sutch' main reason for existence is the caravan trade between Hammerfell and Cyrodiil, more specifically with the Forebear cities of Taneth and Rihad. Most Redguard traders, however, prefer to move their merchandise by sea, and dock at Anvil - because Anvil is larger and wealthier, but also because it is privileged: taxes and tarrifs on trade are smaller, the harbor toll is less severe, connections with the east are better, and the harbor and other amenities are more developed (mostly because Sutch does not have the Privileges, the countess' legal permissions, to increase the harbor size and the like). Many merchants supporting the secession are in it for the money: once Sutch is part of Hammerfell, they can compete with Anvil for trade towards the interior. This is also the reason why the Duke of Colovia is reluctant to intervene: an independent Sutch would benefit Kvatch in the long run.

Apart from trade, the city should have at least one other form of industry. Some ideas:

Basket-weaving from the reeds around Lake Nameless.

Salt-panning on the shores of the Abecean.

Clay pits on the edge of the lake (clay bricks seem a fitting building material)

Gold-seeking in the rivers and the lake - I'm not sure how serious we should take the name "Gold Coast", but it seems appropriate. These would not be gold mines, as the city does not have the countess' permission to start mining, and most of the gold is washed down from the highlands of the Imperial Reserve to the east.

The Imperial Reserve would be another sore point for the Sutchi. This stretch of land along the border of Hammerfell has been set aside as the Emperor's personal hunting ground, and may not be built on, exploited or lived in without the Emperor's permission. This was in fact a political move, to keep Redguard and Colovians from conflicting over the border. The Emperors rarely visited the Reserve, and since it is not part of any county jurisdiction, it is under-policed: all sorts of outlaws and bandits have set up shop there. The Reserve could be a larger theme for the border region: the inhabitants of Sutch, Kvatch and Chorrol see a vast piece of rich land going unused, and worse, become a haven for crime. In gameplay terms, the Reserve would offer us a balance between the more civilized lands around the big cities, where dungeons and widespread banditry would be out of place, and an "adventuring region" for higher-level characters.

I think that all titles in that book should be avoided in Cyrodiil, as they belong in High Rock. The exceptions being Count and Duke, both of which were instituted in Cyrodiil to centralize and homogenize government by Tiber Septim.. who was a Breton from Alcaire.

Well, you've made my point for me. Why would Tiber stop at only two levels of nobility in his new system government? That's not centralizing or homogenizing, that's the exact opposite, further complicating the matter. The current Imperial ruler of Sutch would only have been instated a hundred years ago, so he would logically follow the "modern" system, which we have seen used time and time again in the Cyrodiil context.

Note, too, that this system is both more widespread and older than you'd think: the Duke of Vvardenfell and Helseth's kingship were both position instated by the Imperials in Morrowind, and Reman's reforms were said to be partially based on Breton examples, making the adoption of "Breton" titles far older (if it hadn't already started in the Colovian Estates, who would not have used "eastern" Imperial titles).

Also, I'm a bit weary of just copying Latin words for everything. I know there's precedent for it, but I would rather keep things to a straight "translation" (like king, count, baron) or a completely new word. Hrafnir's languagesdo a pretty good job of incorporating the latin terms we've been given in a distinctly Cyrodiilic context.

Infragris wrote:Well, you've made my point for me. Why would Tiber stop at only two levels of nobility in his new system government?

Maybe I'm not uderstanding you correctly (my english is degenerating with age), but by this logic, then we can't even get creative with nibenese titles. I find it perfectly plausible that Tiber would have submitted the most powerful nobility, making them counts to rule the different 'districts' of the province without renaming everything, and therefore letting the old nobility make use of traditional relations and titles. You said earlier that the ruler of Sutch is a vassal of the count of Anvil. I would think the Colovian counts would be allowed to make use of the traditional system of clientage.

The latin names were just suggestions I came up with keeping in mind the title of 'hortator' in vanilla, meaning "inciter" or "encourager" in latin. Hrafnir's stuff is great, but his old colovian isn't entirely fleshed out yet I believe so it's more difficult. We could always ask him to come up with stuff, but I won't insist anymore as it seems you guys aren't too keen on it.

About the harbor: I think having a Brena village with a proper harbor would be a good solution, but I still want a harbor beneath the Sutch cliffside city. This harbor will handle transportation from Sutch to Sutch-Brena-Harbor via river barges. The bridge over the smaller river is up high or has a drawbridge. The lift was put in by a Forebear Utei many years ago (in order to move goods to and from Sutch), and the cliffside city grew up around it as poor dock workers and commoners made their homes.

Here's my take on the title issue: Anything to do with Colovian culture (weapons, armor, food/drink, music, etc) is fair game as far as making up names or generally making it more distinctive/interesting. Anything to do with the Empire, such as military/political titles, administrative districts, etc. should follow established convention. We need to accept that Cyrodiil has some British Empire in its blood too- it's going to be way more conspicuous if we try to change up everything except for the few things we have to keep the same because that's how they showed up in vanilla.