Penarth Town Council has been advised street names can’t be bi-lingual and last night opted for English-only street names for a new housing estate.

Penarth Town Council has decided not to follow the current official Vale of Glamorgan Council policy of giving new streets in the town Welsh-language names.

The Mayor of Penarth Cllr Rosemary Cook (Labour St Augustines)

The matter arose at last night’s Penarth Town Council meeting chaired by the Mayor Cllr Rosemary Cook (Labour St Augustines) at which members considered a report on the naming of new streets in the new housing estate being developed near St Joseph’s school on Sully Road .

The pupils of St Joseph’s School had been invited to suggest names for the new streets and came up with a list of names in English . (Their translated Welsh-language counterparts are alongside)

Mulberry Close = Clos y Morwydd

Mulberyy Avenue [sic] = Rhodfa’r Morwydd

Fox Close = Close [sic] Cadno

Heron Close = Clos y Creyr

Kingfisher Close = Clos Glas y Dorlan

A Penarth Council report presented to the councillors by Town Clerk Shan Bowden stated that “The Vale policy for new street names and developments is to adopt the name that is consistent with the heritage and history of the area, encouraging the use of Welsh where appropriate. ”

The David Wilson Homes development site is on former “Green Wedge” land adjacent to St Joseph’s School on Sully Road, Penarth

The Penarth Council report went on to state that “The Council [ i.e. the Vale Council]will consult the Welsh Language Commission to ensure that Welsh street-names are grammatically correct . Street signs will use one language only to avoid confusion “ [ PDN‘s emphasis] .

Cllr Gwyn Roberts (Labour St Augustine’s) – who is known for his forthright views on language issues – asked what the children at St Joseph’s school had suggested.

Cllr Mark Wilson (Labour Stanwell)

Cllr Mark Wilson (Labour Stanwell) said he had visited the pupils’ “Cabinet” of St Joseph’s School which represents all its classes (and pointed-out, in parenthesis, that the school also had “Prime Minister“). The “cabinet” had come up with lots of different ideas including the names of several local saints, different types of trees (Cllr Wilson noted however that Penarth already had Cedar Way and Laburnum Way etc) and they had considered poets (again, a seam mined by earlier street-namers in Penarth) . The pupils, he said, had eventually settled on something to do with geography or nature and had drafted a list (see above) of five potential street-names and had sent them to the relevant officer at the Vale of Glamorgan Council.

Cllr Roberts said Cllr Wilson had not quite answered his question. He asked Cllr Wilson whether the children had expressed the proposed names in English or in Welsh or both. Cllr Wilson said they had proposed the names in English.

Cllr Philip Rapier (Labour St Augustines)

Cllr Philip Rapier (Labour St Augustines) said that given the proximity to the Cosmeston area it would be very beneficial if children could be encouraged to learn the names of wildlife, botanical species and creatures in the Welsh Language. The children might “lose out” he said if they did not have some familiarity with “the oldest language in Europe“. Cllr Rapier said he was in favour of the street signs being in Welsh for the benefit of the children’s “linguistic education” and the natural world.

Cllr Anthony Ernest (Conservative Plymouth Ward)

Cllr Anthony Ernest (Conservative Plymouth Ward) said the children had made a good choice – although he noted that the second name on the list was mis-spelled as “Mulberyy”.

Cllr Ernest said he thought the names should be in English because “they will all be new residents moving-in to the houses. There is every likelihood they will be people who are not necessarily indigenous to Wales – and from the developer’s point of view I think they are more likely to be able to sell them [the houses] with the English names than the Welsh. ” Cllr Ernest said that did not mean to say he was against the Welsh names – he took Cllr Rapier’s point – but the bulk of street names in Penarth were in English apart from a few which had been named in Welsh about 10 or 15 years ago. He understood this had caused “quite a lot of problems for the residents living there” . He supported the interpretations and the names as chosen.

Cllr Gwyn Roberts (Labour St Augustines)

Cllr Gwyn Roberts said he had received “some stick in the past” over his comments on the Welsh language. In this particular instance the school children had been asked to suggest names. There did not appear to be any commitment to one language or another . If the council expressed the names as the children had named them, then the council would be recognising the schoolchildren’s contribution .

On the other hand, Cllr Roberts said, if the proposed street names were “expressed in the Welsh language – where the learning experience is pretty minimal – it’s just four words at the end of the day – then we really are not respecting those children” . The children would like to see their suggestions on street names . “We owe it to the children to respect what they chose” saidCllr Roberts as he seconded Cllr Ernest’s motion in favour of English.

Cllr Rapier – who had advocated the use of Welsh names – noted that “3,000 cars an hour find their way to ‘Stuttgarter Strasse’ in Cardiff “ without getting lost. Cllr Ernest said his concern was that visitors – not residents – could get lost.

The Mayor Cllr Rosemary Cook, summing up, said the consensus appeared to be that – as suggested by Cllr Roberts – the council should “recognise the children’s contribution”. [i.e. recommend that the English-language names be adopted for the new streets on the estate.] .

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119 Responses to PENARTH COUNCIL APPROVES ENGLISH NAMES FOR NEW STREETS

I’m so glad the Welsh Language Bullies aren’t going to take over the naming of Penarth streets. The Penarth I grew up in has English street names, its people speak English and has such a lovely feel to it that I would hate for it to change.

You are a douchebag, you realise that due to English influence, the Welsh langauge is dying? you obviously do not care one bit and shows that you are English rather than Welsh even though you might claim to be Welsh.. very sad

No unfortunately Michael Ronnie you are not Welsh. You see genuine Welsh people, english or welsh speaking, respect and value the language. Those particular people have a history of 2000 years in this country. Your history is 150 years old – where coal and steel brought and influx of people in. Not a particularly great history, resulting in rotting valleys and a nation so confused as to its identity that people like you can talk absolute drivel on the internet.
Your ‘has such a lovely feel’ comment says it all about you really.
There is only one language that’s ever been imposed on Wales. Frenchman says ‘French? No way, I would never speak that drivel’. Catalan person says ‘Catalan? I am Catalan! Proud to be Catalan. Would I speak Catalan? Never!’
Don’t worry though, all it means is that you’re the same as most of the incomers that refuse to integrate and learn about the extraordinary history of the country pre 1870. But I would like to thank the english and other nationalities who do come here and do integrate, they are special people.

Ari, I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt on discussion boards such as this one but you’ve used up all the goodwill that I’ve allocated to you – and a bit more besides.

How dare you tell me that I am not Welsh! I’m every bit as Welsh as you, you stupid, myopic, inward looking Welsh troll. You think you’re better than other Welsh people just because you speak an extra language. Well think again.

I’m afraid you’re not. You can be english or Welsh speaking, I don’t care. It’s when confused people like yourself start calling themselves welsh and completely hold the language in contempt.
I’ve lived in many countries, through a variety of languages. This michael is why I hold these feelings – when you venture outside of the UK, you realise that people are amazed and find it wonderful that wales has this special unique language. When you arrive back you realise that the national consciousness is still warped in a colonial bedsit, where even the ‘welsh’ are anti-welsh. So sing the anthem with pride on sunday and make sure you really mean the last line.

Ari, you are becoming ever more ridiculous. I never said anything to suggest that I hold the language in contempt. What I did say is that I question the vast amounts of public money spent on the Welsh language, especially considering that money could be better spent on Welsh schools, hospitals, etc.

And about your ridiculous assertion that I’m not Welsh: I was born in Wales and that makes me Welsh. That’s the way it works, get over it. Its not Hogwarts and we don’t have a sorting hat. And its certainly not up to insular folk like you!

Headline in international papers; Common sense prevails in Welsh town council. Great and congratulations councillors. Resist the crazy, spend the money we don’t have bullies. Ps- will Mulberry Close be the Italian quarter? 😉

I’m shocked that the town council and councillors have no pride in being Welsh nor have any respect for the Welsh language. It is obvious they had no intention to use any welsh names from the start. Seems they have very little imagination full stop.

How about asking the local children who attend a Welsh medium school as well? I bet that we would then get suggestions in Welsh and there will be such children living near this development and when it is built there will be such children living there.

I agree with you. Ask the Welsh medium schools to compete. They may come up with better suggestions. I live in Penarth and would like to see more Welsh road names. Good example in Caversham Park Penarth. This certainly hasn’t deterred English speaking people from living there!!! What a load of rubbish Cllr Ernest

i got a feeling many of these incomers to the town would love to take penarth out of wales. They seem determined to ignore the welsh heritage and traditions of the area.
It is sad when people can’t embrace thier own history, culture and identity 😦

I’m no “incomer”. I was born in Barry and spent my teenage years in Penarth. I count myself as Welsh but that sense of identity doesn’t include forcing a minority language onto people who don’t want to speak it.

My sense of “Welsh Heritage” is different to yours – but that doesn’t make mine wrong. And at least I sign my posts with my real name – as opposed to your pseudonym posts.

So sad to read your comments and your ignorance about the importance of the welsh language to the heritage of our country you should be proud that we have an ancient and now vibrant language you may not be a welsh speaker but shame on you denigrating those who strive to promote and preserve our Welsh identity

You’re such a brave man for using your real name.
So what would you say about forcing a minority language on Wales, that language being English?
How is naming a street in the language that has been the language of the country for 2000 years forcing people to speak it? Welsh monoglots really are the thickest. I wonder if any of them will be able to find themselves around France this summer, all those confusing street names that only french people can navigate.

You can’t call yourself Welsh if you don’t respect the Welsh Language. It is a part of Welsh heritage whether you like it or not. Also, you can call yourself British rather than Welsh because you’re not English either.

I agree completely with your sentiments. David, truth is some of the English incomers are more supportive and understanding of the language than people who claim to be welsh.

You could not be more accurate with colonial mindset. Doesn’t matter dow many times the empire turns its back on you, you still loyally find a way back to its teat.

The programme with Lucy Owen had a perfect reason for this anti-welshness within wales
‘complex from monolinguals that they don’t have access to this other resource, they would like to have a reason to say they don’t need it, but there isn’t a negative – today is bilingualism, tomorrow is multi-lingualism’. Bilingual welsh people leave school with 3 languages, shouldn’t that be the celebrated and encouraged?

I’m no incomer and would say to Anne et al if you want dual language signs pay for it. Sorry but as it stands Wales is bankrupt and is spending other people money on hobbies that could be better spent on for example health and education. £500 million a year to support the language when an opt in policy would suffice at a fraction of the cost is daft.

Unsubstantiated comment, Christopher David. How much extra do you think bilingual signage would cost? And if it would be so prohibitive, what’s the argument for not using Welsh instead of English? This simply perpetuates cultural vandalism (often stemming from insecurity, ignorance and a desire to be more English than the English) and continues the destruction of a language and a culture. When the Taliban do it, you cry out!

I’m sorry Christopher, when did Welsh become a hobby? You pay £50m in tax for english ballet every year – how about picketing outside the national ballet barn?!
You see when you force a language on people (english), then open the floodgates and expect the native people to go quietly into the night, it doesn’t quite work like that. Reparations are being made and you should really donate a bit more yourself, or at least a small % of your dole money.
We’ll wait for arabic to become the language of south wales and we’ll talk about it after.

You are an incomer Christopher. You see without an incomers mentality and attitude – would Welsh people ever question their language? Where has this come from? Because it’s not an intrinsic feeling of welsh people to hate their own. It’s come from incomers and the degrading, ridiculing and the constant castrating.

It’s known that bilingual welsh speakers go on to get higher grades and better jobs, ie doctors, lawyers, phd’s etc within Wales. Not public sector jobs. Unfortunately there seems to be a feeling of embarrassment from english language ‘welsh’ people of welsh speaking people – so tell me – where does this come from? Is this an innate welsh psyche? Or is it years of degrading, ridicule and the castrating of the native people? Great Britain has done it everywhere – it was an imperial tactic – just look at how messed up most of the indigenous people are in other countries. What a proud history. You’re Welsh, so it’s ok.

I agree with Michael Corbett & Christopher David. I think they speak for a lot of born & bred Penarthians. I am proud to be Welsh but have no interest in promoting (normally at great expense) a language that, quite frankly, I am indifferent to. If we had lots of money, functioning NHS etc. then all well and good, but we don’t. Actually, even if we did, I think the children’s choice says it all.

Cost a lot more money to change everything to english in the first place. It’s not a choice though, is it? We have two language, welsh people accept that english is here, so the english should accept that it should be equal status for both. And if it did come to it, then it should be Welsh – i’m so sick of people saying ‘oh is that in England?’ – the attitude of most of the commentators on here is exactly why this will not change, as they’re happy for cardiff being the 10th largest city in england – smaller than coventry. Pathetic.

I speak for a lot of born and bred Welsh people. I am proud to be Welsh but i have no interest in promoting Penarth, a place i am, quite frankly, indifferent to. We could use the money that gets spent in Penarth on lots of other more worthy things. Like the Welsh language.

The councillors made their recommendation following a debate. Personally I disagree with them and would rather Welsh street names, but seeing as they’ve asked children from an English-medium school, it’s quite natural for the answers to be in English. It doesn’t need to be made out to be a big problem by either side.

We then have a quite unsavoury debate where people like Christopher David calls for Welsh language signs to be scrapped. Totally unnecessary and not going to happen. It’s also unnecessary and annoying to hear people on the pro-Cymraeg side of the debate (my side!) talk about incomers and so on, as well as Cllr Ernest’s comments (how does he know that English people will move in, and does it matter?). Nobody is taking Penarth out of Wales. Penarth is clearly a Welsh town and always will be.

After this debate ends, we will still have bilingual street signs. We will still have a mixture of street names in English and Welsh (let’s ask Welsh medium pupils as well in the future to ensure we can have streets in both languages), and Penarth will still be part of Wales.

Bilingual street-name signs have been outlawed by the Vale of Glamorgan Council. Signs now have to be in one language or the other – not both to “avoid confusion” . The Vale policy is for Welsh street-names.

David at al- I for one am not anti Welsh although I consider myself British. I have a very strong Welsh heritage inc a Welsh rugby cap won long ago in 1907 by an Uncle (Cardiff scrum half Dickie David) But its common sense and priority. We can preserve all that is Welsh with an opt in policy. We cannot afford to send half a billion pounds a year on supporting (forcing) a Welsh language. Its not even “our” Money, Wales has an annual budget deficit of £15 BILLION pounds. £500 million could be spent on essential services. Welsh is nice- but It’s not core to our health and prosperity. Wales is in some quarters far too insular. There is a world beyond we need to engage with..

Christopher, I agree with your comments re “opt in policy” (which in my mind is just another way of saying “give people the freedom to choose”) but was just wondering where the figure of seven billion pounds spent on supporting the Welsh language. Surely it can’t be that much? Or did you mean to type “million” rather than billion?

Does any one have any evidence that half a billion is spent on supporting/promoting the Welsh language? Genuine question, I know I could do some digging to find out but wondered if the posters on here who are saying it is 500 million know for a fact or just plucked it from the air.

It’s worth remembering that all money not spent ‘promoting the Welsh language’ is money spent promoting the English language. Let’s complain about that, too – and let’s give up on language altogether. Uhhghgh!

hahah insular – wow. Quite the opposite – I left school with 3 language, lived in California and have since learned spanish and french. Can a welsh speaking person expect to pop to the tesco and be greeted with ‘bore da?’ just as a simple acknowledgement? The answer invariably is no. A bilingual person is far more likely to make an effort to understand and respect other cultures. As a welsh speaker I would never go to spain without taking a dictionary and making an effort – you wouldn’t get most english speaking welsh people trying to make the slightest effort.
By the way, things that do not make you Welsh;
Rugby (cap or no cap – shane howarth has a box full)
Coal mining
living in close proximity to a steel works
being born here
fake tanning

Luke “Christopher David calls for Welsh language signs to be scrapped” That’s a lie and if you cant read or at least understand truth and disseminate it you shouldn’t be in the debate. Typical story mongering by a dreamer. Read what I’ve said about the fiscal, priority and reality situation, absorb and perhaps ponder on my suggested solution. I have one- you don’t.

some of the comments by the anti welsh lot are bizarre. They seem to have been taken in by some bitter lies spewed out by the many people who’s sole aim in life seems to be to discredit the native language of the island of britain. Please do your research before you give us any figures.

Well as I suspected £500 million is a made up figure for the promotion/support of the Welsh language. The Welsh government budgeted just over £2 billion for education & skills in the last financial year. Within that a very small section is mentioned for support and promotion for the Welsh language. £25 million with £18 million of that on education. Street signage etc comes out of the local authority budget but you’ll take the point we are no where near half a billion!

It’s not much considering the annual budget is £15 billion. But please remember we are in Wales after all. The clue is in the name.

Some people need to think and get their facts straight before they post rubbish. There’s plenty of room for English and Welsh here.

Welsh does not cost 500million to 1 billion pounds a year..we dont need to over egg a point, keep to facts thanks.
Can we get back to this debate and away from this polarised emotional ranting.

Some people simply thought it would be nice to have the street or estate in English and Welsh.
Some disagreed because they thought it would scare English people away
Some disagreed because English monoglot children didnt think of a Welsh name
(the welsh mediums nearby and people who spoke Welsh were admittedly not asked it seems)

Historically, many of the older Welshnames in penarth were changed without consent to English only like many areas of Wales, but most people arent aware of this.

Penarth has always had connections to Welsh culture and its language, it is not cut off by a concrete wall, Welsh speakers do live there still.

No Welsh speaker has bullied anyone in the meeting or elsewhere, the average citizen does not have that power.

Why this topic gets so heated i am unsure, present the facts and then get heated, not digress onto
‘Welsh bullies’ or ‘they want to remove penarth from Wales’

Michael please re read. I never stated 7 billion. What I said was we have an annul budget deficit of 15 billion pound and Wales spends half a billion (£500 million) on supporting the Welsh language. We arrived at that figure by starting with S4C, Its funding reduced from £101m in 2009 to “ONLY” £82.8m in 2014/15 on its own. The estimates include spending on dual literature for Gove- councils, utilities, Land Registry, DVLC et al countless tons dumped each year- I know I’ve had to send van loads for recycling form just one department! Add the cost of recycling and land fill, forests being cut to supply more paper, teaching, interpretation and translation, programming and software, road signs and marking, the Welsh Hansard, peripheral labour costs the list goes on. The best estimate we could come up with was circa £500 million. I challenged the Welsh government with our figures. They stated categorically they could not disprove them. In fact they don’t have the figures because they are too amateur to actually cost out and budget for this huge overhead!! Scandalous and negligent Once again- WG cannot dispute the figure of circa £500,000,000 spent annually supporting the Welsh language.

The welsh language is to blame for global warming now. I want all my documents in Welsh, as we are in Wales I should be able to receive everything in Welsh. Unfortunately I can only get welsh language material in a tiny % of places. We spend billions on wars and nuclear weapons, but the welsh language is the drain on our resources – of course it is.

We live in a bilingual country – english material has its purpose, welsh material has its purpose. I know every document I get in english goes straight in the recycling. Start caring about actual real problems – like the £1.2trillion of taxpayers support for the UK banking system, £20,00 for every man woman and child. But then again, that sums up why Britain is at the top of the list of hated countries.

Richard Lewis. Where’s your proof? I have challenged the Welsh government and it has stated categorically it CANNOT challenge the figure of £500,000,000. S4C gobbles up £84 MILLION on its own. Don states “It’s not much considering the annual budget is £15 billion. But please remember we are in Wales after all. The clue is in the name”. What ! ? Don Wales has an annual BUDGET DEFICIT of £15 Billion. Jeez. I’ll explain- Wales is bankrupt. It receives £15 billion a year in the form of a block grant under the Barnett formulae to keep it afloat. Got it now? No wonder were in such a state when some would rather see the HNS and education suffer than be fiscally responsible, “just” to keep a hobby language afloat rather than adopt an opt in policy.

Get your facts straight. Half a billion is not spend on supporting the Welsh language. I also questioned the Welsh government.

Wales is part of the U.K with tax paying citizens it’s budget is £15 billion to run. It is not a deficit, we pay tax too. 15 billion is what we get from the chancellor to run this particular part of the U.K. (Under the Barnett Formula) Got it now? Wether the Barnett formula is fair is another debate.

Education does not suffer because of Welsh it flourishes.The nhs does not lose out because of Welsh, the Welsh government prioritises the NHS with its biggest chunk of the budget going to health.

All the budgets are on line, take a look.

Look I don’t care about the street names, I’ve lived in Penarth nearly all my life and enjoy the mix of Welsh and English names. What I care about is people making unsubstantiated allegations about Welsh. To say it is a hobby language is a disgrace, it’s the oldest language in Britain, one of the oldest Europe and part of Welsh heritage and history.

Do you think the language along with the culture should die out?

Funny enough I’m taking the grandkids to St Fagans (Welsh natural history museum) later perhaps I should ask their opinion on this!! I imagine you want to shut that down because it’s a drain on society!

Well said Don. That’s just what they do, degrade and ridicule – it’s ingrained in the psyche. Welsh is just a constant reminder that english is not the original language of the land. Hobby language that I work through everyday, speak to my wife and family 100% of the time and take great pride and pleasure in speaking – who are the real bullies? I bet if they saw my wife’s welsh language company’s profits, they’d quickly consider taking up the “hobby”. Massive complex issues.

If you are a town councillor who happens to be a Welsh language hating bigot and you need to name some new streets then simply ask the children at an English language school for names. Then when people complain that they aren’t in Welsh just say the children will be upset if their choices aren’t used.

Paying for Welsh is ridiculous. Paying for a language? A culture? Stupid. Language? who needs it and what’s it for? Heritage? Value? Pluralism? Let’s join the Taliban and be done with this liberal nonsense. Let’s have some sense here, and stop financing human symbolic communication entirely. Let’s ban speech, interaction and all meaning. Let’s burn books, close cinemas and prohibit doctors, police and teachers from using verbal signification.

There was NO increase in road safety as a result of that work – it was a decision taken by the VoG council as a result of lobbying from the Welsh language pressure groups.

Incidentally, the other thing highlighted by the FoI was that councils do not record spending on things to support the Welsh language separately. That means that its impossible to get an overall figure for Wales as to how much the Welsh language costs the Welsh people.

“You sad individual!”
That’s unfair…you made a ridiculously ignorant comment saying
“Welsh street names are a pain when ordering stuff on line”
Our brains can learn to do things, you make yourself sound really unintelligent that you can’t spell a name.
Its still in the same phoenician alphabet that most European languages do.

Calm down Brian, don’t get your vowels in a twist. Always fun to read the comments from the dewi’s, dia’s, Bryn’s, that come out from dark ages to tell the rest if us Welsh that we aren’t Welsh enough.

Methinks the lightweights are out. Don I’ve done the figures- the WG cannot challenge then as they don’t know them. So shy do you question feckless negligent amateurs who will tell you what suits anyway. Naïve? . Now- once again for the record. Wales has a budget for MEGS of £15,5 billion, that’s only a part of the picture (try Institute f Fiscal Studies) . Once again Wales has an annual £15, billion deficit. I just hope your not in business if you can’t understand basics. Oh by the way. St Fagans…great. Took my children regularly to learn about our great heritage, mine goes back a long way. Still go now on a sunny day. That has nothing to do with fanatical waste, So- deficit- technically bankrupt? Prove me wrong. WG can’t doubt you can.

It is not a deficit. It is not a shortfall that Westminster has to make up. 15 billion is the budget given to run Wales, we are part of the U.K. last time I looked but with a devolved government. If it was not devolved it would still cost 15 billion to run but by the Welsh office.

Now if Wales were independent (God forbid and an argument for another day!) and could not raise the 15 billion required then there would be a deficit and we’d need to borrow probably from London or make cuts.

Bit of rain there today and a lot of work going on to upgrade too. Promotes and supports the Welsh language you know and in case you’re not sure the Welsh language is part of our heritage. Who pays for St Fagans I wonder?

It is a shame that the Welsh language has become an issue that divides the Welsh. There is so much ill will caused by the language – as evidenced by the discussion above – that surely we need to re-evaluate our approach to it.

Perhaps we need a referendum? It is the citizens of Wales who should decide how much money is spent on the Welsh language – not councillors who are working under the influence of Welsh language pressure groups.

Thankfully it’s protected by law. I’d rather a referendum on wales not having to pay towards endless wars and nuclear weapons.

When people like you belittle the language then of course it’s going to cause ill will, you have no respect and constantly put a monetary value on a language. I do take pleasure from knowing that you pay for it though, must be driving you nuts!!

How about we have a competition? Show your support for the english language or lose it. Show your support for the Welsh language or lose it. The competition would require the competitors to get off their backsides’ and fight tooth and nail for what they believe in. I guarantee you that you, as someone who had not had to ever consider such an outcome, would be in awe of the indestructible will of the welsh language speakers to make sure their language survives. This is a daily issue for us, after this conversation you’ll go back to worrying about the £2 you pay towards the language. I’m sure I’ve paid so much more to keep you off work and laying around.

I’ve got nothing against the Welsh language. What I AM against is spending millions of tax payer’s money on it, money that could have been spent on schools, healthcare or jobs. You characterise that as putting “a monetary value on language” but all I’m doing is saying that ALL government expenditure should be justified. Surely you can’t be against that.

Funny it’s you who is saying that it’s a shame the Welsh language is deviding the Welsh and causing ill will. You were the first to post talking about ‘Welsh bullies’!! You’re going devide people starting with a post like that.

We do have a referendum it’s called the election. There’s one coming up in May to decide who runs Wales for the next 4-5 years. Might be worth questioning who will spend the least on promoting the language so you can vote for them. You never know someone like ukip might not want to spend anything on Welsh!

“We recognise the concerns expressed by the Holtham Commission on the system of devolution funding. However, at this time, the priority must be to reduce the DEFECIT and therefore any change to the system must await the stabilisation of the public finances.”

Source; the Coalition Agreement.
Jerry Holtham by the way is possibly Wales’s most able economist, although Prof Brian Morgan is a forensic pragmatist of some ability as well. He- Jerry is also someone I consulted with over this issue. Jerry further enlightened me in that He informed me the Welsh government has no long term plan to eradicate the growing £15 billion annual budget deficit. No surprise when they don’t even know what they’re spending in some areas. We’re an unhealthy one party state with an irresponsible Government that should be reigned in by Westminster. OK Don et la ?

Methinks Mr Christopher David is no better than the Welsh language activists he tries to besmirch , collecting all of his data and lobbying the elected representatives to suit his own needy agenda . Welsh was forced out of use , it didn’t diminish naturally , it is only right that it is supported while its speakers continue to grow

Oh well I can’t out trump outright prejudice and ignorance. Go waste your (Westminster) millions.
Wales has become a laughing stock. And unlike the insular ignoramuses here I see it first hand in my work and travel.

Unfortunately david, you’re the laughing stock in this discussion. I’m surprised someone who travels so much has such a narrow outlook. Prejudiced and ignorant are the perfect words.

If we had an ambitious and proud country, we wouldn’t have to waste WESTMINSTERS money – and further more, if we’d received every penny from our natural resources and workforce, then we wouldn’t have to listen to drivel from you.

Considered arguments. The BBCs budget is £5.1 BILLION (not a million miles off Wales’ national budget). That is a direct subsidy for the English language. The millions spent on setting up Channel 4 were a direct subsidy for the English language. The £90 BILLION Department of Education budget is a direct subsidy for the English language. The £170 million grant for the British Council is a direct subsidy for the English language. The £20 million government grant for the British Film Industry is a direct subsidy for the English language. There’s many many more direct tax payer subsidies for the English language. I could argue that almost every tax pound spent is a subsidy for the English language because that is the language that money is spent in. But there’s no need to. What i struggle most with is that a Welsh man goes out of his way to make a case against his own country’s language when his own British government is spending in excess of £10 million a year on chauffeurs. For example.

I’ve been following this on and off and as a part Welsh part Englishman I can be a little impartial.
I have to say Mr David appears to one of the few here that makes sense. His figures can be checked- I had a look at some and he has a reasoned argument as to how to preserve the Welsh language without spending all that money that could be put to better use. The budget deficit is indeed huge. Does Wales want charity? Its tax receipts and resources will not mitigate the budget deficit, that’s why Wales has one!. So as any businessman will tell you Wales is deep in the red. Sorry but its the likes of Gras that are pulling Wales down. Hot air and bluster with nothing to back it up,

Really? His claim of half a billion spent on promoting and supporting the Welsh language adds up? There’s been no evidence presented. Please be clear it’s not anywhere near that.

He’s not made any reasoned argument on how to preserve the Welsh language (as far as I can see from his posts – apologies if I missed it as the post are a bit jumbled up on here!)

When people try and engage in reasoned debate he responds with snide insults like ‘methinks the lightweights are out’ and calling people ignorant and stupid. I know he’s not the only one, however, no need for that in discussion.

Hells Bells Gras- hasn’t anything sunk in. Workforce and resources! What natural resources? As for the work force there are large pockets of unemployment and many areas where the skill sets are low. Wales had the UK’s lowest GVA (look it up) per head at £16,893 in 2013 while London had the highest at £40,215. Overall its something like 74% of that of England.. It cannot capitalise its work force and resources to make up the deficit. You clearly just make things up.

What natural resources? You’re kidding right? The north of Wales is already self sufficient in electricity. We supply Birmingham and Liverpool with water and Boris the Buffoon is constantly talking about piping it to God’s own back garden in the “Home Counties”. Just for starters like.

All some of the council wanted was a sign in two languages……..yet it was voted down on the ridiculous basis that it would scare people from England away and because English only children didn’t think of a Welsh language name.

So sad that a a segment of the population has no pride in their country We should be proud that Wales is a bilingual nation Bilingualism is the majority norm worldwide Monolingualism is not the norm Such a shame some do not respect our language – I was educated in Cardiff and NewYork and London and am grateful for being brought up bilingually
PS Welsh speakers also pay taxes

Craig I don’t agree with much of your thesis but I do believe you are very correct in pointing out other waste in both England and Wales. like the Chauffer driven cars for joke Welsh ministers “ministers” Add in voting way over inflation pay rises (they own the “independent” pay revue panel), fiddled expenses, huge payoffs! What about the £10 million being spent by WG on “gender awareness in the workplace” ? This “government” of Wales is negligent and amateur. However you haven’t listened to reason and once again show your ignorance. Electricity is NOT a natural resource- its manufactured. This one little fact destroys any credibility your figures may have had. Don- I have demonstrated here how I arrived at my figures. I have presented them to WG. They cannot dispute them. So if my figures say half a billion unless disproved its correct. I’ve had my figures examined by economists, they concur they have foundation. You have nothing. Go away and disprove them or stop warbling on with empty statements. As for my insults- you will notice they’re only made in response the insults against me, Kitchen and heat Don, stop whining eh!

I’ve not made any insults against you Mr David yet you make snide remarks back? Not really responding to my points. I have proved my figures the budgets are on line, 25 million of the 15 billion is spent on promoting and protecting the language.

The £84 million you refer to for s4c does not come from the 15 billion Welsh budget, that comes direct from the ministry for culture and sport. The clue in the title is culture, even the ministers there recognise the need to preserve the language. On a side note s4c employs 2000 people and generates income from advertising. Money well spent by the uk government I would say. See all this promoting Welsh language creates jobs too, it’s not just a drain.

Look we can agree to disagree on this one. The thread is getting a bit silly now so I’ll sign off in the safe knowledge that our history & heritage (including the Welsh language) is protected by law and has a reasonable amount of money spent on it. And people like you whining (to use your term) will never be able to change that.

Why didn’t you make the rules clear at the start Christopher? How was i to know that not listening to your reasoned argument would destroy any credibility i had? And who could have guessed that my “reasoned argument” about over £15 BILLION of English language subsidy from our mother of all parliaments would simply be obliterated just because electricity isn’t a “resource” as defined by Christopher? Now i know the rules though, electricity isn’t a resource but you need the resources to make that electricity, of which we have enough to make Wales a huge net supplier of the stuff. It all gets sent straight into the share holder pockets of our Better Together neighbours.

The truth is though Christopher and Michael (if you are different people) it wouldnt make any difference what anyone said on this page or any other, your allegiance is to “Britain”/England. It’s not just the language you see as an irrelevance, it’s Wales and all its institutions. You want the Assembly gone and out of the EU. A return of all sovereignty to its rightful place in Westminster, with all its serial paedophiles, expenses cheats, revolving door employment policies, and lack of any accountability. We’ve always been looked after by The Sons of Eton, why stop now? We had an empire once!

You’re not bothered by any of the inconsistences in your reasoned arguments, because you always have common sense on your side and some loose figures on the money Wales wastes. Including the complete lunacy of trying to educate one half of the population about how to overturn centuries of injustice perpetuated on the other half of the population. But of course you are a white, English speaking, UKIP voting, white man so it’s all political correctness gone mad! Some how in all of this you’ve become the victims, the rule book promised you the earth but instead of that you’ve got women and people who value a culture you didn’t sign up to asking for a slice of the pie and money being spent on them, when it should be being spent on things you like, like the English language, or cricket, warm ale, and wealthy share holders in London.

You’l get your day in May, the irony is the only place the English National Party will win seats in is the place you want shot of, but maybe that’ll placate you for a while, you may even finally get the answers you crave, but in the meantime how about a little understanding for those who arent so white, so male and so English (speaking of course)?

Interesting contrast between Florida and Wales – in Florida (according to this article: http://bit.ly/flrdprg) they are considering replacing the requirement to study foreign languages with a requirement to study programming languages.

The UK is way behind USA on ramping up on tech skills but I have a sad feeling that us Welsh are even farther behind. 😦

I agree Mr Corbett but like Don maybe we should sign off. There are some reasoned people here but others are just not capable of reason or understanding. The attacks against you and others are nothing more than angry empty rhetoric with little foundation or fact. Yes Wales could do with taking a lead from other countries that are far and away more pragmatic than said Wales. I spend a lot of time overseas and it really comes home to me when viewed over time from outside how insular “we” are. It will take a very long time for “us” to grow up I’m afraid. Anger and insecurity run very deep.

I think you are right, Christopher. The weekend lies ahead and there’s much to be done! So I’ll be signing off too.

But despite the trolling, I’ve found the discussion on this webpage very illuminating. My two big takeaways: 1 – there is so much passion around this topic!; 2 – There is a shortage of official information in the public domain regarding how much the Welsh language is costing the Welsh people. (And, due to the way that Wales is funded, perhaps I should add that there’s also little publically available information about how much the UK funds the Welsh language.)

Re point 2, perhaps now’s the time to raise some FoIs and write letters to MPs?

But as I say, the weekend beckons and that’s something for next week. So… have a great weekend everyone! 🙂

“Michael Corbett.” Wonderful contribution(s.) The pro Welsh language fanatics are exactly that: “….inward looking. blinkered, facist s trolls…” They are incapable of accepting or tolerating other Welsh Citizens who do not/ WILL NOT, be forced to learn or speak, the pointless, backward language.
I am a former speaker of CYMRAEG, but now refuse to speak it. As it represents the oppression of the majority in 2016.
Once this blatant xenophobia and discrimination did not exist. In the equitable eighties and nineties, Welsh was treated on the same equal platform as English. This equality diminished very quickly post nine eleven. When a well known, Insignificant group of facist language fanatics destroyed the once equitable political sphere of Welsh nationalism.
Everything in OUR Principality is now going to the dogs. Economy, nhs, education system. Only ghettos that exist are ones in the main Plaid Cymru towns. They are a blatant example of the neo facist, neo language fanatics political non: “progress.”

Thanks for the praise, sounds like we are singing off the same Hymn sheet. Your phrase “the oppression of the majority” certainly rang true. I think its a bit sad that you no longer speak Welsh but we all need to make our feelings known in some way – because the media in Wales doesn’t seem kindly disposed to our message. (Afraid of losing government funding, no doubt.)

Bloomin eck. More hot air wasted here over a triviality than anything I’ve seen. No wonder Wales is in the state it is. Lowest GDP in the UK, but spend hundreds of millions on a language. Some here even claim they are Welsh- no such thing. Its a concept and a great one on sports & history days but that’s it. Just the Same as English mind, don’t get all sensitive.

Craig, the first step towards you gaining enlightenment on this subject is to read all the comments on this web page and then work out who’s who and what side each person is on. Then you’ll see that I’m not the one filled with hatred and bitterness.

I take back that last question. I don’t know enough about your opinions to assume you’re filled with hatred and bitterness towards everything. But you seriously need to double check what you’re agreeing with if you dont want people to assume you are filled with bitterness and hatred towards anything Welsh. As i’ve shown and you’ve chosen to ignore, the English language is funded over a million times more than Welsh is. Outside of Gwynedd, English is the language of all levels of government in Wales, every one of our emergency and health services are English only, and there’s no such thing as a Welsh body or person demanding that English should be disadvantaged or downgraded.

Yet some how contrary to all the overwhelming evidence, you’ve convinced yourself that you are part of an oppressed majority, and that oppression is being wrought by the Welsh Taliban. Nothing you’ve said or agreed with is enlightened or based on evidence, its just grounded in hatred and bitterness. So i am asking why?