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Re: [Reefhound] Large percent of Mexicans think drug war a failure

It's been 4 years. I wonder how many Mexicans would have considered the Mexican War of Independence a failure 4 years into it when the heads of Hidalgo and Allende were on display in Guanajuato?

Or you could frame that 4 years into the Revolution knowing that as an end result power changed hands. I have heard this characterized as a civil war. Prohibition has a way of making nouveau riche and powerful.

Seems doubtful anyone would create the Partido Narco-Trafficante or anything so obvious sounding. Seems unlikely any new players would not get involved in politics. The Drug War is an easy-sell because it sounds so altruistic. Seems extremely unlikely anyone profiting from drug prohibition would want to change that no matter how much of a failure a large percentage of the people think it is.

Re: [Reefhound] Large percent of Mexicans think drug war a failure

66 percent of the people in the United States were indifferent to, or hostile to, independence from Great Britain in the 1780s too, but what does this have to do with whether or not people oppose a political policy today?

It's reductionist to (as Peter seems to do) think there is only a "pro-narco" and "pro-Calderónista" faction. While there are some who are "pro-narco" (either on the premise that it's a steady employer, or — rather less common — that it will eventually sap the power of the United States to meddle in Latin American affairs), there are sizable numbers of people who believe the whole "war" was a phony political ploy to legitimatize the administration, and still more who believe there were better ways to lessen the need for this particular industry. And, still more who see the "war" as a dreadful waste of human lives and financial resources better employed than in a "war" that accomplishes nothing substantial.

Re: [richmx2] Large percent of Mexicans think drug war a failure

66 percent of the people in the United States were indifferent to, or hostile to, independence from Great Britain in the 1780s too, but what does this have to do with whether or not people oppose a political policy today?

What it has to do with it is to illustrate that what people think of a war while in the middle of it has little to do with whether the war will be ultimately successful or considered worthwhile and necessary. During a war, things are usually much worse for both sides even the ultimate victor. It's pretty hard to measure the success or failure of a war while in the midst of it. Often times a war, even a very big war like WWII, can look like it is going nowhere until the war of attrition wears one side down and their losses reach a critical point.

Of course, there will always be those who would prefer peaceful slavery to a struggle for freedom.

And there will always be those who see a conspiracy behind everything. Always seems to be the same ones that will on one day be calling the government a bunch of incompetent idiots incapable of tying their own shoes, then the next day alleging the government is orchestrating this grand diabolical plot.

Re: [richmx2] Large percent of Mexicans think drug war a failure

It's reductionist to (as Peter seems to do) think there is only a "pro-narco" and "pro-Calderónista" faction.

I thought I strongly implied a possibility those who are pro-drug war/prohibition also could have a stake in the narco-traffic.

There are several factions battling for turf and a share of this illicit industry. It is not a hard-sell to convince people a war on drugs is "the right thing to do." Having players as policymakers can ensure keeping prohibition in force and and the illicit industry strong. Having the ability to pull the strings to control government forces means having a strong advantage for your own particular team.

A true revolution would end prohibition and kill the illicit industry. However, this one country acting alone could not kill the worldwide industry, world leadership would have to initiate that.

Prohibition benefits only the bottom-feeders and the top movers and shakers while the other 80% foots the bill and suffers the consequences, and a large percentage of them just want "to do the right thing." Only 49% think it's a failure, but they don't have a voice that can be heard. Altruism and greed trump logic.

Re: [Peter] Large percent of Mexicans think drug war a failure

Peter -- a "true revolution"? Are we to revise the Communist Manifesto to read "Opiates are the religion of the masses?"

Whether or not a foreign country should change its attitude towards narcotics (a foreign country that simultaneously wants, and doesn't want, narcotics) isn't anything the Mexican government can, or would, be involved in, and wasn't what the poll was asking. While a wish for a world revolution could be one reason people oppose the present policy, the point is just that people do oppose it, for many different reasons.

Re: [richmx2] Large percent of Mexicans think drug war a failure

Peter -- a "true revolution"? Are we to revise the Communist Manifesto to read "Opiates are the religion of the masses?"

Whether or not a foreign country should change its attitude towards narcotics (a foreign country that simultaneously wants, and doesn't want, narcotics) isn't anything the Mexican government can, or would, be involved in, and wasn't what the poll was asking. While a wish for a world revolution could be one reason people oppose the present policy, the point is just that people do oppose it, for many different reasons.

A true revolution would end the illicit industry. There are other ways of doing that, aren't there? By whatever means it would require the world being on the same page.

I personally oppose our selective prohibition policies. If that policy were truly for the public good they would rid the shelves of tobacco and alcohol products and anything else that was deemed harmful. If that were done I would probably jump on-board.

I personally see no harm with governments, or local governments within governments, banning or permitting almost any kind of activity. I do, however, see harm in an all-out worldwide ban on popular activities. With very rare exceptions almost any activity should be permitted, somewhere. If one lone country or region wanted to sponsor narco-tourism that right should be respected and protected by those agencies that currently sponsor worldwide narco-prohibition.

In my case I favor pot-smoking and want to see industrial hemp products in use to the extent there is a market for them. Unless I missed the big news I don't believe there is any place in the entire world where pot use is fully legal, though in some places it has been conditionally decriminalized or tolerated to some extent. That is a travesty, and so in my opinion justice just does not exist in this world. Surely there are more egregious offenses against nature than pot use that are widely tolerated, permitted, touted, sanctioned, marketed, sponsored, and sold - with blessings.

A true revolution might fix that. It might make the world a safer place.

Re: [Peter] Large percent of Mexicans think drug war a failure

I might re-read your history of revolutions... especially of the Latin American variety. Revolutionaries are serious people, who generally frown upon the production and use of frivolous products. There's a good reason Pancho Villa closed distilleries and cantinas, and Plutarco Elias Calles made public intoxication a capital offense in Sonora. Mao Zedong had junkies slaughtered.

Naroctics EXPORTS have been used successfully as a fund-raiser by revolutionary groups in my time by everyone from the Viet-cong to the Taliban -- the latter being one of the more exemplary revolutionary groups when it came to narcotics policy: ok for export but they publically execute those selling and/or using narcotics.

Probably the only modern revolutionary who didn't use foreign narcotics addicts as a financing tool was Villa ... who certainly considered it, but decided against opium smuggling, perhaps out of his own puritanical convictions, but possibly because it would damage his media image.

Re: [Reefhound] Large percent of Mexicans think drug war a failure

And there will always be those who see a conspiracy behind everything. Always seems to be the same ones that will on one day be calling the government a bunch of incompetent idiots incapable of tying their own shoes, then the next day alleging the government is orchestrating this grand diabolical plot.

Bush warned against under-estimatamenting him and look what he hatched. The appearance of incompetence is a good smokescreen for pulling-off diabolical plots. Just because one is good at one or the other doesn't mean they can't be doing both. Every Drug War blunder or inconvenience on the general populace creates a mandate to take it up a notch.

It would be naive to think that there are not at least a handful of politicians or policy-makers that are profitting from the Drug War and cheerleading every effort to crackdown harder.

Re: [gpkgto] Large percent of Mexicans think drug war a failure

Going back to the original topic, I would tend to question the percentage in that the poll was contracted by Mexico United Against Violence, who definitely have a "dog in the fight". Given the rising death toll and the increased frequency of major incidents, it seems only natural that Mexicans would be reacting negatively. Additionally, it seems to be confirming the inadequacies and corruption in the policing system. Typically citizens of any country grow weary of conflicts which drag on with few visible results and no end in sight. Regards, Neil Albuquerque, NM

Re: [chinagringo] Large percent of Mexicans think drug war a failure

Going back to the original topic, I would tend to question the percentage in that the poll was contracted by Mexico United Against Violence, who definitely have a "dog in the fight". Given the rising death toll and the increased frequency of major incidents, it seems only natural that Mexicans would be reacting negatively. Additionally, it seems to be confirming the inadequacies and corruption in the policing system. Typically citizens of any country grow weary of conflicts which drag on with few visible results and no end in sight.

Not sure where you are going to or where you're coming back from, but at first you seem to be questioning the percentage as being too high as it reflects about half of the people thinking the Drug War a failure. Then you go on to ennumerate reasons why the people would consider it a failure. Do you think the proper percentage is more like 46-47%.

Additionally, it seems to be confirming the inadequacies and corruption in the policing system.

That may be a collateral symptom as well, but do you really feel a completely above-board law enforcement system would fix the problem or at least make the Drug War more palatable and less wearying?

Eliminating corruption and profiteering would eliminate the narco-system. Without the profit incentive it seems doubtful, after several decades of this folly, that more than that remaining 51% would favor prohibition and warfare to enforce it. Perhaps another decade or so of this the public sentiment may shift enough that the majority would not think present drug policy worth the trouble.

Re: [richmx2] Large percent of Mexicans think drug war a failure

I might re-read your history of revolutions... especially of the Latin American variety. Revolutionaries are serious people, who generally frown upon the production and use of frivolous products. There's a good reason Pancho Villa closed distilleries and cantinas, and Plutarco Elias Calles made public intoxication a capital offense in Sonora.

There have been cultural revolutions, sexual revolutions, the industrial revolution, and others including The Revolution whose 100th anniversary we've been celebrating and the one you reference. It seems some of those distilleries and cantinas have re-opened along with a few new ones since that time. My one brief pass through Sonora didn't leave me believing such a capital offense still exists there.

It seems Mexico has been dealing with contraband issues for quite awhile and has ended up tolerating many of them. The very first book I attempted reading in Spanish, Astucia, el jefe de los Hermanos de la Hoja, o los Charros contrabandistas de la Rama, I was unable to finish before its owner wanted it back. It's setting was in 1800's Jungapeo, Michoacán and had to do with the contraband tobacco trade. Not having finished the read - my Spanish reading was much slower going at that time a few years back - I'm not sure how it turned out but I am seeing evidence tobacco also became tolerated, though much more limited than I would like to see - I have been unable to find loose cigarette tobacco here in Mexico as in the US where I customarily rolled my own but now have to buy cigarettes pre-packaged.

Today's Drug War, which seems to have us on the verge of civil war, is all about contraband/prohibition issues. It would be interesting, to say the least, to know where this is going to end up. What are the choices? Well, if the narcos sieze power it is unlikely any of them would end prohibition and put themselves out of business. And if current powers remain... well, just more of the same. It may only come down to which narco faction has the home field advantage.

As for me, I await the day I can freely and unapologetically choose my own poison and purchase a shirt and pair of pants made of hemp fiber rather than cotton or some synthetic blend. That would revolutionize my life as I had made the choice at age 13 many decades ago to depart the approved paths, set out on my own trail, and smoke that first forbidden marijuana cigarette. I am not sure how to characterize the revolution that may provide my freedom, but that is of no consequence as it seems we only have a choice between profiteers or puritans, if we give them the benefit of the doubt, but neither of those are headed in my direction.

I still await evidence I may have chosen such an insidious vice as I have been constantly warned against for all these years. I have yet to discover any unhealthy consequences of my decision, especially given that I already have outlived my step-father by well over a decade who had chosen the legal and widely promoted liquid remedy to destroy his life and health. Poor guy, no liver left at age 46 and he appeared to be in his 70's for those last few years - people tell me I can still pass for being in my 40's. Too bad the government wasn't as concerned for his well-being as they apparently are for mine.

Re: [Peter] Large percent of Mexicans think drug war a failure

As I've said many times, I have no interest in people's USE of narcotics, and — as an export commodity — I'd rather see a legal trade. But, it's wishful thinking to expect that this is going to be accepted by the buyer nations who have other priorities (like keeping their prisons full, and their arms industries humming).

You say you want a revolution, well, you know...

... ain't gonna happen anyhow. Revolutions (even in the metaphorical sense of something like the "sexual revolution") usually go through a puritanical phase (a la Calles in Sonora or the "Christian Coalition" in the U.S. after the "sexual revolution") — which even if it gets beyond the puritanism — never works out as originally intended.

Re: [Peter] Large percent of Mexicans think drug war a failure

I was throwing some "food for thought" out there with respect to the poll results. I think most of us are familiar enough with poll results to realize that the results can depend on who is paying for the poll. The type of questions and how they are asked can skew the final numbers. The articles that I was able to read didn't define the questions or methodology, so the "real" numbers could be either lower or higher?

"Additionally, it seems to be confirming the inadequacies and corruption in the policing system.That may be a collateral symptom as well, but do you really feel a completely above-board law enforcement system would fix the problem or at least make the Drug War more palatable and less wearying?"

No, my thinking was on a different tact. Pure speculation but if the policing system was adequate and had less corruption - then maybe the so-called war's progress would exhibit more positive aspects and provide the Mexican people with some hope that it was winnable. And yes, I do accept the fact that it is the years of ineffective policing that allowed the problem to get to this stage.

Mexico is in a very difficult place with their stance on the distribution of drugs since they are committing the lives of not only the military & police but also those of many innocents. This commitment is far greater that those exhibited by the largest customer! Regards, Neil Albuquerque, NM

Re: [chinagringo] Large percent of Mexicans think drug war a failure

Earlier in this thread, I made comment about the policing system. In the article which follows from MILENIO, they cite statistics out of Nuevo Leon that 89% of the population have a mistrust of the police:

Re: [chinagringo] Large percent of Mexicans think drug war a failure

There just seems to be a lot fewer complete fools on this side of the border. It might be a percentage in the 90's if that were about what they thought of their politicians here. That percentage would be closer to 50% NOB where the people only distrust the politicians from the OTHER party.

If the police NOB are actually more honest than those here it makes them no less a pain in the butt. To the contrary.

Re: [chinagringo] Large percent of Mexicans think drug war a failure

Neil, The thing that should be noted here is that somewhere around that 89% of the Mexican population HAS NEVER trusted the police! Not so strange once you realize that over the years (centuries!) the police or whatever group had similar responsibilities (regardless of the name) has been used by the government AGAINST the populace in general more often than FOR the populace.