Do Mormons think Mormonism is ultimately true and important?

Mormons seem conflicted over whether their own religion is even important enough, if false, to refute. I have to wonder if there is a kind of unconscious, latent atheism or agnosticism or even nihilism in the heart of Mormons who think this way—or at least a bottom-layer heart-orientation away from the importance of truth. Allow me to express this seeming conflict in a caricature:

“Mormonism is the most important religion, institution, and belief system on earth. It is the kingdom of God on earth. We have the oracles of God. We have the plan of salvation to which you should dedicate all your time, money, emotions, and thoughts. We have the vehicle by which your family can be saved, to which you ought to gear your entire family tree. We are the only true Church on earth. We most accurately represent the Lord Jesus Christ.

“But hey, if you decide that we’re not true, then don’t you dare say one critical thing about us, and don’t you dare spend any time trying to bring us down. After all, it’s not that big of a deal. Leave us alone.”

Here is what I’m asking: Do Mormons want to be left alone essentially because they think Mormonism is still worth believing even if it is false?

One of my ex-Mo Christian friends offered up an alternative explanation for the oddity. She expresses Mormon logic this way:

“If it is true, you shouldn’t attack it even if you disagree with it. Even if it isn’t true, well, we don’t have to follow that to its logical conclusion because it IS true! Really! So just don’t attack it.”

Whatever the case, Mormons don’t seem to have absorbed what their own leaders have said about this:

“Mormonism must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a Prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead people, then he should be exposed, his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false…” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954), vol. 1 pp 188-189)

Personally, I’m not convinced that Mormons take Mormonism’s truth-claims that seriously. They are useful, but not necessarily true. Worth defending, but if false, not worth refuting. They have prioritized sociology over theology. Culture over truth. Church over Jesus. Mores and norms of the community over the glory of God. Feeling-driven beliefs over belief-driven feelings. As someone once said, “The Mormon Church has outgrown the need to be true.” My Mormon friends, Jesus wants you to be encouraged:

“And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:32)

139 Responses to Do Mormons think Mormonism is ultimately true and important?

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude says he wanted to talk about our salvation, but sadly he needed to talk about the false prophets that crept in. That is what we here do, talk about the false doctrines that are creeping in.

And yes Ralph I have admitted to LDS when I was wrong, I read the LDS hymnal and forgot their were songs about Jesus, So yes I was wrong, sadly LDS cannot admit they are wrong. And sadly you sing songs of worship to and about a mere mortal man. Read your Bible, God does not want us to elevate some Man to His (Gods) Level, That was the sin of Lucifer, trying to exalt himself above God.

I just have to shake my head when people start speculating. Because in relation to Joseph and Mary, all the information we have is this:

Mary is described as ‘a virgin’, a term in the Greek which not only implies what it says but also that she was a young woman in her mid to late teens. We know nothing of her family or her background.

Joseph, we are told in both Matthew and Luke, is descended from King David, albeit by forty or so generations. We know nothing about his age, save that he is never mentioned again after Jesus attended his Bar-Mitzvah at the age of thirteen. (Lk 2: 41 – 52)

Luke does not mention Joseph’s reaction to her pregnancy but Matthew does. In Matthew 1:19 he clearly has in mind a divorce, which was the right and proper thing to be done in these circumstances. The usual way of doing this was by public trial, causing the utmost humiliation and shame to come upon the fornicating woman. It is to Joseph’s credit that he chose the second option of a private divorce, which could be undertaken with just two witnesses. The situation would have been extremely embarrassing and hurtful for him, and he could easily have used a public divorce as a way of hitting back at his apparently unfaithful bride.

That’s all there is folks, all the rest is speculation. So to bring this up makes no point at all.

grindael,
Good summary. What you are saying, in a nutshell, is that Joseph had character and this is something that Joseph Smith didn’t have.
What Ralph is doing seems to be a favorite tactic among LDS. I’ve pointed it out before. They search through the Bible, find something that isn’t even remotely related to the topic, and say, “It’s just like this”.
LDS revelation can’t be proven by any means other than it makes the receiver of the revelation feel good along with the corporate LDS body. In fact, Mormon revelation can easily be disproven and that poses a real problem for Mormons. Thus they search high and low to try and connect the dots but to no avail and so then it’s back to “I KNOW” which is somehow suppose to impress people and end the discussion.
Where is it in the OT where it is said about the false prophets, “They prophecy out of their own imaginations”. That’s Mormonism in a nutshell. The modern day Mormon prophets don’t reveal much. The observation has been made many times that what they basically do is give motivational speeches which the faithful Mormons swoon over.
Why in the world anyone would follow false prophets, who preach a false gospel and worship a false God I’ll never know.

Add ignorant and game player to the list of descriptives from my Non-Mormon Christian friends. I am such a bad person!

Kate- you asked about my motive. My motive in coming to this website is to enter constructive debate about questions and concerns that people have about Mormonism. You all claim that this is not an “Aunt Ty” site, but so far that’s all I’ve sensed. You all ask a question, I answer it, and you blast me by telling me I’m a liar, ignorant, haughty, dishonest, not a lover of god or man, etc. The problem here is that you haven’t liked my answers, and thus, you attack the arguer, not the argument.

Rick B- you keep going on and on about this being mean topic. Haha… Can you find a spot where I called anyone mean? Haha. Also, I’m sure “my leaders” have said all the things you’ve quoted and more. However, I’m going to take the freedom to try convincing and discussing when I feel like it’s actually possible to convince and discuss. If I genuinely felt like I was being asked to convince you, and not just argue with you, I would be willing to share more descriptive details of my beliefs, my thinking, and any logic behind it. I just haven’t sensed that from you. My apologies if I read you wrong. I haven’t dodged any questions like you all claim… Maybe I missed a few, or maybe I didn’t answer them all the way you’d like.

So Rick, I never said that you’re mean. If you want to have constructive discussion about the topic posted at the beginning, I’m happy to. I just won’t argue with you.

Ralph,
Here we go again. Find someone, ANYONE in the Bible who did it, so you can justify the molestation of little girls in your mind. This is so strange. As a father of 3 daughters, what Joseph Smith did should be appalling to you. Show me in the Bible where Mary was 15 and Joseph 25. I’m not interested in men “speculating” just show me. Your argument was mostly about Medieval times, Joseph Smith did not live in Medieval times Ralph. I stand by what I said. It was and is morally wrong for a grown man to be marrying/having sexual relations with little girls. Unfortunately, perversion didn’t start and end with Joseph Smith. That perversion has been around probably since Adam. Does that make it right? Did Joseph Smith have a right to abuse children just because pervs in the past did? How sad that you have to stoop to such horrible thinking so that you can justify Joseph Smith’s actions. How you think that is better than coming out and admitting he was a fraud is beyond me.

grindael is right, it doesn’t matter because Joseph Smith was breaking the law with his adultery and bigamy. So what do you have to say about that Ralph? I noticed that you completely ignored that part. Joseph was married to Emma and he had no right or business marrying/having sex with anyone else. What about the perversions with other men’s wives? 1/3 of the women he took were already married. What was the purpose of that Ralph?

It has been shown from LDS scriptures where God commands only one wife, so I won’t post all of that again. The bottom line is that Joseph Smith was not a moral man.

reggie,
Give me a break. “Aunt Ty” to a Mormon is anyone who disagrees with them or shows them their own doctrines from their own church publications. I could easily call you an “Aunt Ty” Christian right? Don’t you disagree with Christian doctrines such as the Trinity? If you want to have “constructive debate” please stop complaining and do it. You really haven’t given answers so how are we to like or not like them? Stop keeping track of every little thing you think is argumentative and get involved with the dialogue. If you are waiting for someone to hold your hand and speak gently to you, again, you are in the wrong place.

Reggie,
What are you doing ? In your last comment to Kate you said of us non- LDS here,
” You ALL ask a question , I answer it and you blast me by telling me I’m a liar, ignorant,
haughty, dishonest, not a lover of God or man .”

Why do say “all” here have done this ? You want to have a constructive dialague but can
that be fruitful when you exaggerate like that ? This site is far from an “anti” site. Whether
you can start to understand that there are people who have invested their entire life , emotions,
money, time, spiritual beliefs , etc in the Mormon Church only to find out that it’s claim to
be a trustworthy guide in spiritual truth is false . After the shock wears off then various
degrees of anger come at Church leaders who’ve misled them . Family ties are adversely
affected because now you’re an “apostate” . We’re all guests on this blog. If you think you
are in the truth then at least peruse the articles offered by this ministry, or come and meet
with it’s directors . By the way, you mentioned that you answered the questions asked of you.
Reggie, there can be a big difference between responding to a question, and answering one .

Ya know, I can’t help but wonder why Joseph Smith’s actions were never taught to me in 40 years as a Mormon? Why wasn’t I taught that he married 14, 15, 16, 17 year old girls? Why wasn’t I taught that he married a dozen women who were already married to other men? If it was such a fantastic thing and commanded of God, then why wasn’t it in the lesson books? I learned that Joseph Smith was a polygamist when I was 39 years old and it was written in our family history book that my parents had just received. After studying that out, I was sick. If it was such an amazing, moral, honorable thing that he did, why isn’t it being taught in church? I was taught at church that polygamy started with Brigham Young and the move West. All those poor widows needed a man to survive. Lies. I’m so glad that God has led me out of this false religion.

Reggie,
You keep harping on the fact that we say you dont dont God or are mean or what ever. You really need to read your Bible better. The Bible tells us that if you claim to follow God but get who God is wrong, then you have a false god and are not really following the true God.

Read this,
Then to add to the fact that Timothy speaks about rebuking people, we read in Titus:

TITUS 1:9-16
9 holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict. For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and
deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This
testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. 15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but in works
they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

Here, Titus is very Bold and Blunt, Speaking about people using SOUND DOCTRINE, to EXORT, CONVICT those who contrdict. He talks about people whose mouths must be stopped. He also talks about Commandements of men who turn from the truth. Mormonism is full of Mens Commandements

Cont,
that are not of God and put you under the law. Titus Does not mince words or water down his thoughts when he says “They profess to know God, but in works
they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.” Mormons Claim they Know God, But as I have said before, Does God know you?

Read this,

Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jude 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling [words], having men’s persons in admiration because of advantage.

You think I am harsh, Jude was Harsh, but he spoke the Truth. This is just the Tip of the iceburg so to speak on the truthful but harsh things said in the Bible.

Even Paul said, If you dont love the Lord Jesus you will bve damned. Wow, It’s OK for Paul to say that, But not for me? Justify it how ever you want, Say I’m not Paul, But Paul said, Follow me as I follow Christ. Paul Learned these things From Jesus.

Kate- thanks for the advice. I’ll consider your ideas. ;-). I believe I have been answering (responding to) questions, but you just havent liked my responses I guess. Ask me more questions please.

Mike R- add “exaggerater” to to the list. I really am a crappy person. I apologize for saying All… I hope your feelings aren’t hurt, and I will be more thoughtful in my responses, so that they qualify as answers as well. We cool?

Rick B – I didn’t follow your line if thinking, so I stopped reading after the first couple of lines. I don’t keep harping on the “mean” topic… You are the one who keeps bringing it up. I never said anyone was mean. I’ll await something constructive from you. I am patient. Haha.

Reggie,
You said you stopped reading what I wrote,
Typical Mormon, you admit you dont read what we write, then complian we dont know what were talikng about. Most of what I said was scripture from the Bible, but I know you could care less what scripture says. And before you tell me I am wrong, lets remember, You avoided questions, then state it as, You dont follow what were saying, or were not being friendly so you wont.

then we/I prove you guys wrong with evidence and you guys cannot adimt your wrong. I admited to Ralph I was wrong, Helen has yet to admit she was wrong on the topic that Falcon brought up and two others provided evidence.

Then I show Ralph he was wrong, he has yet to say anything. I said either he is ignorant about His teachings, or he is aware of them and does not care. He stated maybe he is just Innocent, but then I pointed out, I knwo He has read the D and C and part of my information came from that, so at the very least He is aware of the teachings in the D and C and theirfore He knows about them but does not care and was wrong. But still no reply from Him. So Yes Reggie, you guys do not care about us and do not show the love of Christ.

Why not go back and read what I wrote, if you dont follow it, then ask, not say, I dont follow it so I wont read it. How can you honestly “Not Follow” it if you dont read it and even try to understand? That show you are a liar and really are not serious about interacting with us.

“Helen has yet to admit she was wrong on the topic that Falcon brought up and two others provided evidence.”

Ok Rick B. a challenge that I know you will just brush off and say it’s been addressed. Why did Jacob insert verse 30, when discussing polagamy. You and I both know you can’t address this and won’t. Falcon couldn’t and none of the other responders did either. I have been on these type of forums for years and not once have I ever seen the critics who claim that polagamny was condemned in the Book of Mormon ever quote verse 30, why Rick, why. You silence will be dulty noted for you know and I know you can’t answer it and will ball back on saying, oh yea, Helen was already given the answer to that. Nice try Rick but if you want me to continue debating with you, be a man and tackle this one on you own. I won’t be holding my breath.

I never said nor admitted that I attack the Bible. And where do we elevate man to God’s level? Go back and reread all of the LDS texts you have and you will see that we don’t.

And now it looks like you’ve admitted you’re wrong because you were called out on it.

Falcon,

I was never trying to equivocate Mary and Joseph with JS and his polygamy. Kate said that any man that married a 14 year old from the time of Adam was sick in her book. I was asking her opinion on the topic that most (note not all Grindael and their ‘speculation’ comes from historical evidence) believe that Mary was between 12 and 15 when she fell pregnant and married Joseph. The Catholic Encyclopaedia online states a similar ideology.

Kate,

Like I said, I am against it today because of how I have been brought up. The same for you. If we were alive back then we could both have different views on the subject. What is happening is that you are judging the past by present values. And you cannot say that you would be of the same mind then as you are now, you never know how you would feel if that was how you were raised to think and believe.

As for JS breaking the law – is not God’s command greater than earthly law? If he was a prophet and God commanded him to do it then he is better to obey God than man. As I said for part number 2 in my last post to you, that is where we differ in opinion.

You ask a similar question about the Bible – ‘why do we attack the pillar of your faith?’ is basically what you’re asking when you ask why do we attack the Bible. So that’s life, put up with the whingers, or as we say here – suck it up princess.

The way you worded it sure came accross to me as your attacking the Bible. Then aside from what you said, Your church most certainly does attack the Bible. You guys claim it is missing parts and is not translated correctly, to mosat normal people that is an attack on Gods word.

You elvate Man to Gods level when you say we are God embryos, which something to that effect was stated by YOUR PROPHET. Your Church taeches we can and will be Gods, and you sing a song called praise to the man. All our praise is to be to Jesus alone. Say what you want but a book of Hymn’s is a book of worhsip songs, when you fing a song in a book of worship songs to a man, then you do indeed worship that man and elvaute him.

Then you can say what you want about me adimting I was wrong, I still dont see you or Helen admiting you were wrong, and Helen was flat cold busted, And I showed you from the D and C where your Church teaches to meet enemies in public and confront them, You claimed their was a 3rd option which I showed really was not an option since it was in the D and C and I know you read that. So if you forgot it was their, then that still falls back to the your ignorant phase and according to your prophet you cannot be saved in ignorance.

Ralph,
one more thing on the issue of attacking Gods word. It is taught in the D and C that JS and SR were COMMANDED by God to “Correct” Retranslate the Word of God, Hence, the J.S.T.

I notice How JS was so full of himself that His new Bible is pretty much named after Him. I happen to own a copy of the J.S.T and we read it in that it is possibly not complete. Some LDS claim It was finished and then fell into aposte hands by going to the RLDS and the FLDS. Some LDS claim it was not finished, and we read that in the J.S.T.

I have plenty of evidence showing both sides. Then JS claiming God told Him to correct and Finish the translation shows an attack on Gods WORD. Gods Holy word tells us He (God) Places HIS WORD above His Name. So why would God allow things to go missing from His word? Then the Bible tells us God cannot Lie and it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie. Well according to JS he would not see death until the translation was complete. If according to some LDS the translation was not complete, then that means God lied.

If it was completed, but fell into apostate hands, then God again Failed. Yes I know LDS use SOME PARTS of the J.S.T. But they dont use all of it and never pass that version out. They pass out the Bible which they dont trust. This issue poses lots of problems for you LDS and raises tons of questions. But as the habit of things has been going, you guys dont care and will not answer questions anyway. You would rather live in drakness than confront the truth.

Helen, I’m somewhat perplexed as to why you feel that the issue of Jacob 2:30
was’nt addressed by those non-LDS here. I though it was addressed just fine.
I think you may be trying to hard to prove everyone else wrong. This issue is
not that difficult in my opinion. Here’s what I see: 1. the Book of Mormon does
not teach that polygamy is part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ ( you testified to that).
2. The Book of Mormon does not reveal that believers in the One True God were
given permission to practice polygamy by God. 3. The Book of Mormon agrees
with the New Testament teaching on marriage . 4 . The Book of Mormon teaches
in Jacob 2:30 that IF God wanted to He could command men to “raise up seed” thru
polygamy. IF God wanted to He could also command rocks to speak ( Lk.19:40 compare
Matt.3:9 ). Do we really want to use a hypothetical argument here? Instead of using
if , if , if , why don’t we just take the text , and the whole Book of Mormon, for what it
does teach on polygamy ? Is polygamy condemned in the Book of Mormon ? I’d guess
it is because God says that His commandment is one wife, otherwise violators will
reap a curse ( condemn) vr 29. Maybe I’m missing something here but it seems plain to me .
I believe that the truth about marriage for a follower of Jesus Christ is found in the New
Testament and so I personally have no need for the Book of Mormon on that issue.

Let see, I recall answering every question to date, execpt the very newest one.
You have dodged almost every question by me and have had pretty much every christian call you out on not replying to them.

To refresh your memory, the question/topic you were wrong on and busted for was the stone on the alter issue. Then Johnny pointed out to you on the issue of Polgamy that JS was wrong no matter how you look at it. Either he broke the law becasue he did not have sex with the women to raise up kids as you stated the commanded, or he did have sex with them which pretty much the vast majority of Mormons deny he did. either way he was expoused as a fraud, and you ran away from that question even though I myself called you to account for it many times.

Now you come here and try telling me I wont reply to you? Man you have some nerve. How about this, I told you already, I am not afraid to engage you on any topic,and until you either admit you were wrong on the stone on the alter topic, or prove you were right, and answer Johnny’s questions that you clearly avoided, I wont answer you. And you know as well as I do, you wont admit your wrong and answer Johnny’s questions, but will still try and find a way to say I avoided you. So since it is in writting, everyone can see for themselves That I will answer you once you choose to stop playing games.

“As for JS breaking the law – is not God’s command greater than earthly law? If he was a prophet and God commanded him to do it then he is better to obey God than man.”

Yeah, that’s why you aren’t a practicing polygamous now, the LDS have to obey the laws of the land right. The laws of man. Your belief above is the EXACT thing the FLDS say and that is why they are not affiliated with the apostate LDS Salt Lake City branch of Mormonism. So which is it? Are you obeying God or man?

As to the rest of it, twist and spin and do all the mental gymnastics you need to make it OK in your mind. As for me, Joseph Smith was not a moral man.

Rick B. stated, “How about this, I told you already, I am not afraid to engage you on any topic,and until you either admit you were wrong on the stone on the alter topic, or prove you were right, and answer Johnny’s questions that you clearly avoided, I wont answer you. And you know as well as I do, you wont admit your wrong and answer Johnny’s questions, but will still try and find a way to say I avoided you. So since it is in writting, everyone can see for themselves That I will answer you once you choose to stop playing games.”

To both you and Johnny, I made a huge error in stating that the Stone is anything other then what most likely is true about what Falcon, Johnny and you stated. It seems that you are correct, Sacred Stone was placed on the Temple Alter, I apologize for thinking anything different. 🙁

Now that I have apologized could you proceed to clearly state why all Orthodox Christians intentionally not quote verse 30 when showing that Jacob was pointing out how God did not want the Nephites to practice polygamy. I’m not asking for anything other then a direct response why Falcon and others will quote all the other verses but simply leave out a very important verse that our visitors and guest might like to see as furthering their knowledge about the whole context that is being visited.

Let me refresh for all the visitors and guest exactly what verse 30 states:
Critics generally refrain from citing this verse:

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things (Jacob 2:30

Helen, do you think before you speak? Do you go back and read what you said before you speak? You first said

Why did Jacob insert verse 30, when discussing polagamy. You and I both know you can’t address this and won’t. Falcon couldn’t and none of the other responders did either. I have been on these type of forums for years and not once have I ever seen the critics who claim that polagamny was condemned in the Book of Mormon ever quote verse 30, why Rick, why.

You only asked me to reply why Jacob inserted verse 30. Now that you admited you were wrong, and by the way you never addressed what Johnny said about JS being wrong either way, but then you went onto say,

Now that I have apologized could you proceed to clearly state why all Orthodox Christians intentionally not quote verse 30 when showing that Jacob was pointing out how God did not want the Nephites to practice polygamy. I’m not asking for anything other then a direct response why Falcon and others will quote all the other verses but simply leave out a very important verse that our visitors and guest might like to see as furthering their knowledge about the whole context that is being visited.

You asked me to now speak on behalf of all People and ask me to tell you why they leave that verse out.

So you still need to adress what Johnny said, I stated that already, He did not bring up the issue of the stone, it was over all two questions that needed to be addressed and I clearly stated that.

Then I will answer your first and oringal question, but will not try and speak for every believer out their.

First off, I’m tired of these games you play, as I think other are as well. Then you cannot keep changing things up, like saying here is a question, then later adding more or changing it and trying to act as if that was the first one you asked me. It seems unlike you, I re-read posts and remember what was said. Go back and read what I said, the issue of Johnny’s question is and was different than Falcons. And I clearly expressed that.

“Go back and read what I said, the issue of Johnny’s question is and was different than Falcons. And I clearly expressed that.”

I don’t even remember what the question was, I must have felt it was not worth responding too and using up one of my 6 daily posts. If you care to repeat it, since it seems so important too you, then I will also try and respond to that.

I think all our guest and visitors are taking note of who is really trying to be accommodating here, and it sure ain’t you. I admitted I was wrong, I apologized and yet you still seem to be on a rampant too dismiss my efforts. If you don’t want to debate all you have to say is, “seems like the Evangelicals are loosing the battle”, we really don’t have a good answer to why we never include verse 30 when quoting Jacob, simple. 🙂

[Helen, Jacob 2:30 has been discussed at length, beginning on August 23 on the Study in Scarlet thread where you first raised the question. Andy, Mike R, Grindael and Rick B have all addressed the verse, passage, and topic very specifically. You brought up Jacob 2:30 again on August 30 on the Worthy of Hire thread, and on August 31 Mike R again provided relevant discussion on the issue on the True and Important thread. After you continued to insist that no one had addressed Jacob 2:30 (on the True and Important thread), Mike R again, on September 3, restated his understanding of the BOM passage and its relevance. The issue of polygamy in Jacob 2 has been sufficiently addressed. As for your assertion that Evangelicals never include the Jacob 2:30 verse, the discussion on Mormon Coffee has demonstrated that Christians do not shy away from the implications of the passage, so let’s move on. -Sharon]

” ….could you proceed to clearly state why ALL orthodox christians INTENTIONALY
not quote verse 30……. I’m not asking for anything other than a direct response why
Falcon and OTHERS will quote all the other verses but simply leave out a very important
verse….”

Helen, as one of those ” others ” that you expect a response from as to why I “intentionally”
do not quote verse 30 . So here’s my response : Can you share with me where I intentionally
did what you accused me of ? Thanks

Mormonism has ‘successfully’ ambushed Christianity. In place of Love for God & Neighbor, they have substituted a silly, mundate set of trivial Rules & Regulations, including instructions regarding: Earrings, flip-flops, & etc. Want to go to live with God? Here are the secret Handshakes & Passwords you’ll need; don’t bother with things eternal (refer 2 Corinthians 4:18;1 Samuel 16:7). WAY TO GO!

Helen Unlike some people, I do my own research and go back and read things, and guess what I found? Back under a complety different topic from this one I said to you

Rick B says:
August 30, 2011 at 9:36 am

Helen said

Sharon, I have asked Falcon about verse 30 (book of mormon)

Helen, Grow up. You cry about Falcon not answering your question, Yet remember, that question was answered by many of us and so he could simply repet what we said, but why bother. Then Still this makes 3 times I have said this to you, Johnny answered it and you never replied back to him.

Look at the huge time difference from the time stamp on my reply to you. This means as of that last one I called you out 3 times on avoiding Johnnys question. So to date this makes what? 6 or 7 now. Man you sure Hate the truth and answering questions dont you.

Helen, You also accused “Everyone” of dodging Jacob 2:30 well let me quote Mike r and Notice (AGAIN) The time stamp.

Mike R says:
August 24, 2011 at 9:35 am

Helen, are you making moral judgements on people who disagree with you on the
Book of Mormon and polygamy ? I for one have known about Jacob 2:30 for a long
time and yet , never was “afraid to admit it ” . How would you know my opinion on
this ? Is this your spiritual witness ? Falcon asked a question concerning reconciling
Book of Mormon verses on poylgamy with what the D&C states about polygamy. Good
question. But what did Jesus teach His followers , since we are in the New Covenant /
Testament. In looking at Jacob 2:30 it simply states that IF God chooses He could
command men to “raise up seed” unto Him by
it

He did mention it, but I question your motives and actions. You seem to think we all have short memorys and forget what we say or do. I for one dont.

Helen, Here is the question Johnny posed and you avoided, Notice (YET AGAIN) The time stamp, you have dodged this one for a very long time, but also when you lump EVERYONE as avoiding verse 30, notice Johnny also did not. So are you Fibbing about us?

grindael says:
August 24, 2011 at 1:34 pm

30. 30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

Where are all the children from Smith’s ‘polygamous’ marriages. Oh, that’s right, according to Mormons, he didn’t have any cause he never had sex with them. So why did Smith practice polygamy again? If (as Mormons postulate) Smith didn’t have sex, he was in violation of D&C 132. If he did, he where are the children? Either way, Smith was in violation of the law.

Helen, Sigh, Notice again the time stamp, seems I called you out again for avoiding us. It really is sad I must point this stuff out and make an example of you, but I guess it has to be done.

Rick B says:
August 24, 2011 at 10:28 pm

Helen, Besides avoiding over and over what I said, Funny how you harp on Falcon for avoiding verse 30, yet you avoid what I said, you also avoided what Grindal and Andy said. That makes you a hyprocite.

Sharon, sorry and I guess that moving on is best since I did not articulate my question very well.

Could we please quit using the name hypocrite or being accused of this? I have had enough of Rick’s bad manners and his unwillingness to follow the MC rules.

I have apologized when I was wrong, made mention that I was totally out of place with the Sacred Rock on the alter debate, yet for some reason that is not enough to show willingness on my part to be civil, polite and staying away from name calling orlabeling others.

Boy I hate it when I lose my password and have to reregister for something.
Okay, so I am back and under a slightly modified login. For those of you who remember me, I just want to give you a shoutout. For those who don’t know me, Hi.
As pertaining to this article. I find it highly rhetorical, but I will give it my best shot.
Do I believe that my church is true or do I simply not say anything against it even though it is false?
Ummm… despite the opinion of some to the contrary, I wouldn’t be joined to it if I didn’t think it was true. I have personal experiences of my faith in this church. It is not lightly based on simple words alone, it is based upon my personal reflections through years of study and action upon the word I have learned.
The basis for this question is a little presumptuous and quite vague. It is one that could be asked about most religions and I fail to see the specifics as to why it must be a specific forum question as most every other posting is generally along the lines of ths discussion.
Do members of the LDS faith as individuals believe in the church because they honestly believe it is true or do they just simply go along with the tide so to speak? That may be a better phrasing of a proper question. This is something that each one of the millions of members needs to face individually. I have seen many who have simply reached out for the rode and let go under various situations. The fact is, however, that God will not bring man to compulsory salvation. (cont.)

Cont.
Just like the parable of the 10 virgins we must find our own oil for ourselves not simply ask others for oil. (The oil means faith by the way, learned that in Sunday School). I don’t believe that faith should be a guessing game or a game of musical chairs hoping you will be in the right place at the right time. When one starts to doubt, one must seek out and resolve that doubt. I don’t like the idea of Sunday 3 hour Mormons any more than Christmas mass Catholics. i.e. people who simply go through the motions out of tradition without a true heartfelt belief in their faith.
On a personal note. I love everything about my LDS faith. I find that a great deal of it appeals to both my spiritual foundation as well as my fair minded feelings.
1. I love the idea that all man will be taught about God’s plan both on this world and those who have lived here in the past without any knowledge of the Savior or His gospel.
2. I love the feelings I get as I study the scriptures and each time etch out a new morsel of knowledge and understanding on a level I had not discovered previously.
3. I love the associations I have had through my mission and the incredible friendships I might have not otherwise known.
I have never felt any doubt as to the validity of my faith and its base.
I am also thankful for this forum. It brings me yet again to a realization that I don’t yet know all my religion has to offer. I am currently reading “The Great Apostasy” and I find it is a great read. Thanks all!

Helen,
Did you not follow Ralph’s comments? He feels that Joseph Smith was well within his rights to have sexual relations with children because it wasn’t against the law back then. I then asked about Joseph Smith breaking the laws of adultery and bigamy and this is what he said:

“As for JS breaking the law – is not God’s command greater than earthly law? If he was a prophet and God commanded him to do it then he is better to obey God than man.”

So apparently God commanded JS to commit adultery and bigamy, even though one of his ten commandments says “Thou shalt not commit adultery” I know there is an explanation in D&C about what constitutes “adultery” but you see, JS didn’t follow that himself. I would dare say the dozen or so married women weren’t virgins. Oh and let’s not forget that Emma only knew of a handful of those wives and the ones she did give consent for went through a mock ceremony because JS was already married to them. I don’t think that counts as giving her consent. So by his own scriptures he was an adulterer. Not someone I want to follow. Sorry, but Ralph can’t have it both ways. Mormons either follow the laws of God or the laws of man. You can’t follow both at the same time if they are opposing each other. Isn’t continuing revelation wonderful? You can claim all kinds of crazy stuff, do all kinds of crazy, immoral things and then one day just say God told you to tone it down a little. I think I’ll stick with the continuous Word of God.

“I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false.” (Revelation 2)

Let’s “test” Joseph Smith about polygamy. First, he went against his own scriptures which had an “article on marriage” that claimed the doctrine of the Church was monogamy. Then, he lied that he was practicing polygamy to the Church, and published it to the world that he only had one wife, when he had more than one. Of all the gospel doctrines Joseph Smith established, none received this much attention from God. For God sent an angel to Joseph Smith over a dozen times to make sure he taught and practiced it.

This doctrine had the most saving power over any ordinance, because it guaranteed the salvation of an entire family for only one person’s obedience to it.

That’s right – Joseph Smith taught that only one person in a family needed to obey this doctrine in order to save their entire family. But if they rejected the doctrine, then their whole family would be damned.

“Having a great desire to be connected with the Prophet, Joseph, he (my father) offered me to him; this I afterwards learned from the Prophet’s own mouth.”

“My father had but one Ewe Lamb, but willingly laid her upon the altar: how cruel this seemed to my mother whose heartstrings were already stretched until they were ready to snap asunder, for she had already taken Sarah Noon to wife and she thought she had made sufficient sacrifice but the Lord required more.” – Helen Mar Whitney Journal, Helen Mar Autobiography, Woman’s Exponent, 1880, and recently reprinted in A Woman’s View.

In fact, Joseph Smith gave Helen only 24 hours to decide on whether or not to marry him. Of this, Helen wrote:

“[my father] left me to reflect upon it for the next twenty four hours. … I was sceptical – one minute believed, then doubted. I thought of the love and tenderness that he felt for his only daughter, and I knew that he would not cast me off, and this was the only convincing proof That I had of its being right.”
The next morning, Joseph Smith finally appeared himself to explain the “law of Celestial Marriage” and claim his teen bride. In her memoir, Helen wrote, “After which he said to me, ‘if you take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation and exaltation and that of your father’s household and all of your kindred.’ This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward.”

Helen also writes about her mother’s reaction to all of this:

“None but God and his angels could see my mother’s bleeding heart – when Joseph asked her if she was willing, she replied ‘If Helen is willing I have nothing more to say.”

“She had witnessed the sufferings of others, who were older and who better understood the step they were taking, and to see her child, who had yet seen her fifteenth summer, following the same thorny path, in her mind she saw the misery which was as sure to come as the sun was to rise and set; but it was hidden from me.”

Helen thought her marriage to Joseph Smith was only dynastic. But to her surprise, it was more. Helen confided to a close friend in Nauvoo: “I would never have been sealed to Joseph had I known it was anything more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it.” (“Mormon Polygamy: A History by LDS member Richard S. Van Wagoner, p. 53.)

What would Mormons do today if the Church still practiced this doctrine? What if a Bishop or Stake President could extend salvation to an entire family by taking one of their teen daughters?