1) Making the game accessible to casual or new players is crucial in the modern MMO era for long term success. That doesn't mean the entire game needs to or should be catered to casual players, but the design of the game can't be a stone wall that turns away the curious and only admits those who are committed to excellence on day one.

2) The flashy graphics: They are a bit over the top when you get a lot of people together in an area, but I think that players want combat that feels dynamic and impactful and flashy graphics and sound effects help create that feeling, so I think they're here to stay. That may not be how it was on FFXI, but it's how the Final Fantasy series in general has gone, so it's still very much in character. Just one of those time where you have to put on your dark sunglasses and "deal with it."

3) "Who doesn't love competing for HNMs?" Yea, is this a serious question? Who DOESN'T love that? Uhhh, 99.8% of the population of FFXI doesn't love it. It's a terrible design in every single way. It gives RMT a valuable commodity to try to monopolize, provides massive incentive to hack and bot, etc, on top of just being a frustrating bottle neck for most players. I don't know a single person who liked killing pop mobs or waiting at a spawn point with 15 other people hoping they could get claim on a mob before it even visually appeared, but knowing that they'd probably lose to a JP or hacker every time.

4) Ease of advancement: I actually agree with this somewhat. The nice thing about a game where you accomplish things easily is that you get those rewards up front and that makes you feel good about yourself, but in the long run, it creates other problems like a feeling that the game is hollow, as well as a need for an incredible amount of content to keep the hamster wheel going. From what we can see so far, gear choices in FFXIV do look extremely boring and vanilla, and the entire concept of end game character advancement is the very shallow and unsatisfying WoW style of tiered gear sets. I do think this is a problem for many people, though there are others who will be endlessly entertained by the notion of exchanging their sword of awesome +1 for a sword of awesome +2, and later, a +3, +4, etc.

I don't see anything like FFXI where you have major milestones in the development of your character, from getting a chobobo to getting an airship pass to unlocking your subjob or your first advanced job, to getting your AF, gobbie bags, etc. All of that stuff took a lot of time, but it was important, permanent stuff that you would never replace or outgrow, and it made it feel like you had really accomplished something, even though in the end it's all 0s and 1s, and not real.

I think any good MMO does need moments of "Finally, I accomplished it!" that aren't all gear centric, especially in a game like this where gear is clearly meant to be replaced at regular intervals. So far FFXIV doesn't have any of that, and it's a problem.

where things took time and effort and a sense of accomplishment to achieve

Nothing in FFXI had a sense of accomplishment to it, just something to check off your to-do list.

Looks like you spelled "my" incorrectly, as "your." You don't speak for any one but YOU.

FFXI had many moments where many players felt tremendous sense of accomplishment, whether it's beating CoP, maxing out a crafing skill, getting full AF for the first time, beating Maat, getting relic weapon, a black belt, a peacock charm, or whatever difficult goal some one set and then exceeded. There was, for most of FFXI, a lot of ways to measure growth, both for your character and for yourself.

Quote:

There, I said it. I'm absolutely tired of FFXI players making this argument.

You said it, and you were wrong to say it for any one but yourself, so deal with the fact that FFXI players will always make this argument, because it was and will always be truth for many of us. I played FFXI on and off for 5 years, played WoW for almost 7 years, and apart from beating Yogg Saron for the first time and making "Gladiator" the first time, I never felt anything in WoW that measured up to the sense of accomplishment I regularly felt in FFXI. The fact that so many other people feel the same way should be a clue (but obviously, it isn't) that your own experience is not universal.

It is a troll comment though IMO. Especially with FFXI being a very dated game now, very hard to get into, very different from its original self, etc.

I mean, FFXI can't be updated in a lot of ways because of the "PS2 limitations", it's pretty trollish and ridiculous that if someone wants the new Final Fantasy online to have something in common with XI that they should just go play that.

Yes XI is different. No Yoshi-P didn't have to pretend it doesn't exist (like he did, got 100% "inspiration" from World of Warcraft, RIFT, and Korean MMOs)

Edited, Aug 6th 2013 9:17am by Killua125

XIV and XI are separate entities though. To draw inspiration from those other games would ultimately be more favourable in the long game. Those who didn't like XI wouldn't like a prettier version of it either. It was never going to be like XI, it's like expecting FFXIII to be like FFVII. It draws character ideas from it and nothing more than the regular series staples.

It is a troll comment though IMO. Especially with FFXI being a very dated game now, very hard to get into, very different from its original self, etc.

I mean, FFXI can't be updated in a lot of ways because of the "PS2 limitations", it's pretty trollish and ridiculous that if someone wants the new Final Fantasy online to have something in common with XI that they should just go play that.

Yes XI is different. No Yoshi-P didn't have to pretend it doesn't exist (like he did, got 100% "inspiration" from World of Warcraft, RIFT, and Korean MMOs)

Edited, Aug 6th 2013 9:17am by Killua125

XIV and XI are separate entities though. To draw inspiration from those other games would ultimately be more favourable in the long game. Those who didn't like XI wouldn't like a prettier version of it either. It was never going to be like XI, it's like expecting FFXIII to be like FFVII. It draws character ideas from it and nothing more than the regular series staples.

Thing is, there actually are a fair number of similarities between XI and XIV... such as all classes on 1 character, same basic ideas for races, 3 factions, many of the same abilities and spells (or very similar, flash, provoke, berserk, blizzard, etc), similar methods of travel, many of the same monster types, etc. It's funny, because Killua is always whining about how XIV ripped everything from XI, and now he's saying they have nothing in common. Yet he's calling others the trolls... hypocrisy much?

where things took time and effort and a sense of accomplishment to achieve

Nothing in FFXI had a sense of accomplishment to it, just something to check off your to-do list.

There, I said it. I'm absolutely tired of FFXI players making this argument.

I played FFXI for 7 years, and I only felt accomplishment on my first year of playing. Those accomplishments were beating Maat as RDM, getting level 75 for the first time, learning how to tank, and defeating the Ark Angels with my linkshell when they were still considered hard. You wanna know what happened after that? I realized none of that sh*t mattered, because you don't get anything out of it. And then from that point on I simply went to endgame events for the community, and what I get out of it was just a bonus. Eventually the friends I made over the first year quit either due to RL or getting burned out, and I continued playing on and off.

I realize this is just your opinion, but when you say stuff like you're tired of FFXI players arguing that they got a sense of accomplishment from the game and that nothing had a sense of accomplishment, it seems very close-minded. Maybe you didn't, but I certainly did. The moment when my byakko's haidate finally dropped, or my Ace's Helm, or beating CoP, or any number of other accomplishments in game definitely made me feel great. I've never got that same feeling out of another game. Looking back, I realize that it's mostly because of the insane time commitment it required, but it was still an amazing feeling when I finally did "check that next item off my to-do list".

So while you may be tired of the argument, I myself see it as a valid one. That doesn't mean everyone has to agree with it. I guess I'm just saying I get tired of having to defend what I liked in XI just because others didn't. Please don't infer that this means I want XIV to be like XI, because I absolutely don't. Just don't discount other peoples point of view simply because "you're tired of it".

I admit my opinion is strong, but much as you get tired of having to defend what you liked about XI, I get tired of having to defend XIV (or any non-FFXI) game that doesn't have those elements and thus claiming there's a "lack" of accomplishment to it just because it wasn't a massive timesink.

You don't have to defend your point. If you enjoyed the game, that's completely fine and I don't mind that. I never said anything about it being an invalid argument either, just a tired one. It's not going to happen in FFXIV and I simply wish people would realize that others prefer something different, even people who have played FFXI.

My point is, it goes both ways. You can have a sense of accomplishment beyond taking months, or even years, to grind something.

EDIT:

KarlHungis wrote:

You said it, and you were wrong to say it for any one but yourself, so deal with the fact that FFXI players will always make this argument, because it was and will always be truth for many of us. I played FFXI on and off for 5 years, played WoW for almost 7 years, and apart from beating Yogg Saron for the first time and making "Gladiator" the first time, I never felt anything in WoW that measured up to the sense of accomplishment I regularly felt in FFXI. The fact that so many other people feel the same way should be a clue (but obviously, it isn't) that your own experience is not universal.

Same as above. Just because many players see it as a huge accomplishment, doesn't mean everyone else does either. I am just an example of the opposite side. Am I speaking for everyone? No. But to act as if that sense of accomplishment is only valid because you took months/years to complete it is a complete wash. Getting level 75 is overwritten by the fact that you have to do merits, completing your AF or AF2 gear is overwritten by the fact that most of them are terrible. Getting Relics is overwritten by the fact that they suck compared to the new weapons in Abyssea and SoA. And now FFXI players mostly state that Abyssea destroyed the game they loved and are finding a new home.

The reality is while no one has had the same experience, FFXI players talk as if it things don't take forever, there's no sense of accomplishment at all. This is 100% untrue.

I admit my opinion is strong, but much as you get tired of having to defend what you liked about XI, I get tired of having to defend XIV (or any non-FFXI) game that doesn't have those elements and thus claiming there's a "lack" of accomplishment to it just because it wasn't a massive timesink.

You don't have to defend your point. If you enjoyed the game, that's completely fine and I don't mind that. I never said anything about it being an invalid argument either, just a tired one. It's not going to happen in FFXIV and I simply wish people would realize that others prefer something different, even people who have played FFXI.

My point is, it goes both ways. You can have a sense of accomplishment beyond taking months, or even years, to grind something.

The problem I had with your post was that it seemed like you were discounting others opinions about the game because you didn't feel that way. For a specific example, you open your argument by saying: "Nothing in FFXI had a sense of accomplishment to it". That just seems like a very nescient response based solely in your own personal views. As I said, I respect your opinion that the game didn't give you a sense of accomplishment, but your post made it seem like you didn't respect the opinions of those who did get that feeling from the game.

Also, nowhere in my post did I say you can't get that sense from different styles of games, I said that I personally haven't gotten that same level from a game since. I'm not sure why you're having to defend XIV, at least not from me. I love the game and am very glad it's not like XI. I'm past that phase in my life and not looking for a massive grind anymore. I just didn't like the way you approached your position on XI, making it seem like what you said was a fact and that people were wrong for gaining a sense of accomplishment from the game.

Completely agree, and find it pretty annoying when people like Callinon make troll comments like "go play FFXI then".

Killua125 wrote:

It is a troll comment though IMO. Especially with FFXI being a very dated game now, very hard to get into, very different from its original self, etc.

But that's what he's asking for. He's asking for dated mechanics and a sloggy grindfest. It's fine to want that, but that game has been made already.

I loved FFXI. I played it for 4 years starting in 2004. My first level 75 job took me two of those years to do. I did the NM camping, I did the story missions, I did the xNMs, I did the needing a party of six to cross the street for a hot dog.

I don't think I'm the only person who stopped playing FFXI for a reason. I'm older now, I have a business to run. I don't have hours on end to sit in one place not accomplishing anything. I still love MMOs, but I would never play FFXI today.

I am not the only person who fits that description.

Killua125 wrote:

I mean, FFXI can't be updated in a lot of ways because of the "PS2 limitations", it's pretty trollish and ridiculous that if someone wants the new Final Fantasy online to have something in common with XI that they should just go play that.

Yes XI is different. No Yoshi-P didn't have to pretend it doesn't exist (like he did, got 100% "inspiration" from World of Warcraft, RIFT, and Korean MMOs)

Didn't I read somewhere else that, at one point, Yoshi said that anything that was in FFXI could be in FFXIV? Like.. gameplay features I mean, not design concepts? I thought I read that somewhere, I may have to track it down later. Unless I was hallucinating when I saw that, it doesn't sound like Yoshi is ignoring anything.

I never said XIV couldn't take inspiration from XI. MMOs take inspiration from other MMOs. Final Fantasies take inspiration from other Final Fantasies. But taking inspiration doesn't mean carbon copy. It's also too early for you or anyone else to know what features will be added down the line.

Adzieboy wrote:

XIV and XI are separate entities though.

Exactly.

The two games are different. It's ok for them to not be the same.

____________________________

svlyons wrote:

If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.

I guess my question is how is the leveling system in XI better than XIV? Do you really think there is any more skill in pulling single mobs in a row to level than actually running dungeons and getting invaluable experience working as a group with different mechanics on multiple dungeon bosses?

This leveling system is very similar to SWTOR which I have played since leaving XI due to time restrictions. I had just as many memories leveling and met good people and joined a good guild just like I did in XI. My good memories in XI didn't revolve around grinding to level, it was doing things as a small group of friends. My most fond memory actually is me and my crew camping out to get me the JoyToy for my Warrior. Took a while but we did it and had fun doing it. Now it wasn't fun camping that spawn window, it was fun doing something with my ingame friends. We could have had just as much fun if we were doing multiple quests to get each of us items instead of spending weeks just to get me my sword.

There will be higher tiers in XIV that casual gamers like me won't be able to accomplish, that will leave the "elite" (people with more time) the ability to get the uber gear us normal folk won't get. Difference is you won't have to dedicate as much time to do so, not camping spawn windows but working game strategies to beat the mob and get the drop.

It just annoys me when people confuse having more game play time for the better ability to play the game better.

Quote:

I don't think I'm the only person who stopped playing FFXI for a reason. I'm older now, I have a business to run. I don't have hours on end to sit in one place not accomplishing anything. I still love MMOs, but I would never play FFXI today.

Best quote ever, I am married and have 3 kids. I can't sit down and play a 3 day weekend straight like I used to be able to. I happen to like the idea of games catering to people like me AND having the next tier of gameplay for people who can accomplish those things. I wanted a Ridill so bad in FFXI, but I knew to my game restrictions I would never be able to get it. I didn't resent those who had it, but I did feel very left out because there was a huge gap for us casual players in FFXI.

Edited, Aug 6th 2013 10:32am by Techsupport

____________________________

Quote: WAR has access to enough enmity gear and enough hate-inducing JA to aggro baby jesus.

Quote: When I'm trying to decide what spell to cast I look at the mobs' weaknesses, check the day, check the weather and then calmly cast Thunder IV.

There, I said it. I'm absolutely tired of FFXI players making this argument.

You said it, and you were wrong to say it for any one but yourself, so deal with the fact that FFXI players will always make this argument, because it was and will always be truth for many of us. I played FFXI on and off for 5 years, played WoW for almost 7 years, and apart from beating Yogg Saron for the first time and making "Gladiator" the first time, I never felt anything in WoW that measured up to the sense of accomplishment I regularly felt in FFXI. The fact that so many other people feel the same way should be a clue (but obviously, it isn't) that your own experience is not universal.

Yet you played WoW longer? I feel like there's some sense of denial going on, long-time WoW embitterment (FFXI players get it, too~), or maybe a bit of "FFXI popped my MMO cherry" nostalgia if it was actually your first essentially ruining subsequent accomplishments because it just wasn't the same the second/third/etc. time around.

I also find it silly you claim XIV to have no milestones, but here, have a few: - Getting to 10 so you can unlock and change classes. - Completing level 15 storyline mission and getting airship access. - Unlocking job/class abilities from quests. - Unlocking jobs from classes at 30. - Getting retainer and AH access. - Getting your chocobo companion.

...this is just what we've seen out of beta. Certainly you can expect more story content, artifact quests, and who knows what other surprises as well as an actual achievement system. You're basically making the same mistake you accuse HM of making by simply omitting the "for you" or "for me" in saying there's nothing to do. Which, well, is a lie.

BartelX wrote:

That just seems like a very nescient response based solely in your own personal views.

It probably shouldn't be much of a shocker that I align myself more with HM's terse output, but regardless of personal opinion, you can't really shake that some get more... invested, no, addicted to certain aspects of these games. Perhaps its intentional by the devs or just a psychological weakness in the individual, I don't know. What I do know is that when I see the usual, "I want such and such to be like FFXI!" epithets, it too often glorifies the good without giving the bad a fair acknowledgment. Yeah, the (H)NM game is an example. Forced partying for more mundane tasks like EXPing is another. Long-time job issues were another can of worms, too. Fundamentally, we need to stop and think that SE could have just brought FFXI into the next decade, but instead they opted for a new game (for better or worse under Tanaka's leadership). This carries the implication that maybe they thought not all was well with XI or that, indeed, times have changed and things that worked then wouldn't work now. The bridges XI burned with people would be hard to repair even with an overhaul. Thus, fresh start.

I can then say people overvalue digital goods. This carries well into endgame balancing, the economy, and how the community behaves. It shouldn't be surprising that I then correlate prestige to the precious and rare goods within a given game as they outright affect our growth and performance. I, too, want more people to play, and in turn give everyone a better chance to expand the community. At the same time, I feel those very prestige walls contradict that desire and instead segregate players into groups where the greater refuses to interact with the lesser. Art may imitate life, but I also try to remember these are games first.

The problem I had with your post was that it seemed like you were discounting others opinions about the game because you didn't feel that way. For a specific example, you open your argument by saying: "Nothing in FFXI had a sense of accomplishment to it". That just seems like a very nescient response based solely in your own personal views. As I said, I respect your opinion that the game didn't give you a sense of accomplishment, but your post made it seem like you didn't respect the opinions of those who did get that feeling from the game.

The intent behind my post was to show that just because things took forever, that doesn't mean there's a sense of accomplishment to it is bigger than everyone else's. I said what I said because I was admittedly annoyed by the same tired argument from seemingly the same group of players. That said, I still stand by my words. It's been a view I've had for a very long time.

I'm not defending the game towards you, persay, because I respect your opinion as well. But there are a lot of problems with FFXI that I feel players have looked past simply because they got used to it and saw it as the norm, and wanting FFXIV to be like FFXI makes me feel like they're not willing to break out of their bubble. I've had massive fun with other MMOs, and even if it didn't take forever, I can say the game is fun the whole way through. I can legitimately tell my friends to play this game because you won't have to "work around" the problems that FFXI had.

No one is wrong for having that sense of accomplishment in XI. I didn't, and if people asked me how I felt about FFXI, I will stand by what I said and I will not sugarcoat any of it by saying "It's just my opinion". I see that as a suppressant of my experiences and I don't feel anyone has to hide behind that phrase just because it's an unpopular opinion.

I really wish people would take the game for what it's offering and try it without preconceptions about what they've already experienced in other games. Yes it borrows from other games, but perhaps the entire game as a whole will work once you filter out your expectations based upon what you've played in other games.

where things took time and effort and a sense of accomplishment to achieve

Nothing in FFXI had a sense of accomplishment to it, just something to check off your to-do list.

There, I said it. I'm absolutely tired of FFXI players making this argument.

I played FFXI for 7 years, and I only felt accomplishment on my first year of playing. Those accomplishments were beating Maat as RDM, getting level 75 for the first time, learning how to tank, and defeating the Ark Angels with my linkshell when they were still considered hard. You wanna know what happened after that? I realized none of that sh*t mattered, because you don't get anything out of it. And then from that point on I simply went to endgame events for the community, and what I get out of it was just a bonus. Eventually the friends I made over the first year quit either due to RL or getting burned out, and I continued playing on and off.

I realize this is just your opinion, but when you say stuff like you're tired of FFXI players arguing that they got a sense of accomplishment from the game and that nothing had a sense of accomplishment, it seems very close-minded. Maybe you didn't, but I certainly did. The moment when my byakko's haidate finally dropped, or my Ace's Helm, or beating CoP, or any number of other accomplishments in game definitely made me feel great. I've never got that same feeling out of another game. Looking back, I realize that it's mostly because of the insane time commitment it required, but it was still an amazing feeling when I finally did "check that next item off my to-do list".

So while you may be tired of the argument, I myself see it as a valid one. That doesn't mean everyone has to agree with it. I guess I'm just saying I get tired of having to defend what I liked in XI just because others didn't. Please don't infer that this means I want XIV to be like XI, because I absolutely don't. Just don't discount other peoples point of view simply because "you're tired of it".

Absolutely agree 100%. Rate up, good sir! When my Byakko pants dropped after a 3 month wait in line, I was ecstatic! It really did feel like an accomplishment because of all the time and work I put into it with those fellow linkshell companions. I still have fond memories of those folks and all the places we went and the things we did together.

That doesn't mean that I need ffxiv to be the same, though. That was then, this is now. I expect ffxiv to provide me with just as many fond memories as ffxi did. That's all I can hope for.

There, I said it. I'm absolutely tired of FFXI players making this argument.

You said it, and you were wrong to say it for any one but yourself, so deal with the fact that FFXI players will always make this argument, because it was and will always be truth for many of us. I played FFXI on and off for 5 years, played WoW for almost 7 years, and apart from beating Yogg Saron for the first time and making "Gladiator" the first time, I never felt anything in WoW that measured up to the sense of accomplishment I regularly felt in FFXI. The fact that so many other people feel the same way should be a clue (but obviously, it isn't) that your own experience is not universal.

Yet you played WoW longer? I feel like there's some sense of denial going on,

Your instincts are way off. I played WoW longer because Blizzard's customer service mentality was light years ahead of S-E, and because I had far more friends playing WoW than FFXI. There were also a lot of features about WoW that I consider superior, such as the UI and combat. I'm not at all bitter about WoW, I enjoyed it for what it was, and I played it for a long time, but in the end, there's only so many spices that could be added to that soup.

I'm also not bitter about FFXI. I think S-E accomplished some unprecedented things with FFXI, from the Job system and the concept of being able to accomplish everything on one character (which they brought back in FFXIV, so kudos to them) and as I have already mentioned, the fact that there are MANY things to accomplish and feel pride in other than pure "I have higher stats" epeenage. That they don't recognize the value of those things in the design of FF14 is a bit of a failure, IMO, but that doesn't mean that it won't still be a very enjoyable game or have other aspects that set it apart from other MMOs. I just believe there are some ways it could be better than it is, and this is one of those ways.

I think it's funny that you would disagree even a little bit or find fault with this because a lot of the things I'm talking about are "non elitist" goals that were accomplished in bite sized, but many staged processes. The sorts of things that you claim up and down should comprise the end game of FFXIV. I won't try to psycho analyze what it is that you "really" want in an MMO, because I think it's ignorant to think we have some deep insight into each other on the internet. As far as I am concerned, the apparent contradiction must simply be a break down in comunication.

I really think you should take this same approach instead of condescendingly thinking that you have some lens of expertise through which to interpret my comments. Your best bet at comprehension is to just take what I say about my opinions and my preferences as being the literal truth. It's disrespectful and frankly pretty stupid to think you know better than I do what I like or don't like.

Now finally, you mentioned milestones in FFXIV and I agree that they exist, but the difference between milestones in FFXIV and FFXI is that they mostly occur while still in the "learning" stage of the game and with such hand holding that they really aren't accomplishents in any way. I don't think that getting an airship pass has to be an accomplishment, it can simply be a method of gating content and opening up the world, but without something to take that spot, the game lacks texture that could otherwise exist.

The intent behind my post was to show that just because things took forever, that doesn't mean there's a sense of accomplishment to it is bigger than everyone else's. I said what I said because I was admittedly annoyed by the same tired argument from seemingly the same group of players. That said, I still stand by my words. It's been a view I've had for a very long time.

I'm not defending the game towards you, persay, because I respect your opinion as well. But there are a lot of problems with FFXI that I feel players have looked past simply because they got used to it and saw it as the norm, and wanting FFXIV to be like FFXI makes me feel like they're not willing to break out of their bubble. I've had massive fun with other MMOs, and even if it didn't take forever, I can say the game is fun the whole way through. I can legitimately tell my friends to play this game because you won't have to "work around" the problems that FFXI had.

No one is wrong for having that sense of accomplishment in XI. I didn't, and if people asked me how I felt about FFXI, I will stand by what I said and I will not sugarcoat any of it by saying "It's just my opinion". I see that as a suppressant of my experiences and I don't feel anyone has to hide behind that phrase just because it's an unpopular opinion.

This argument is starting to get very circular, so I'm just going to close with saying that having an opinion on something is absolutely valid and appreciated. Stating something as if it's a fact however, will always cause controversy. Whether or not you meant to, your post came off very one-sided, completely discounting those who did gain a sense of accomplishment from goals in FFXI. I also don't think adding that it's your opinion is sugar-coating anything, I think it is just letting people know that you are speaking from your own point of view, instead of in absolutes, which is what your OP came off as.

I think we're in agreement on the direction of XIV, and we both want it to be pretty different from XI.

I really wish people would take the game for what it's offering and try it without preconceptions about what they've already experienced in other games. Yes it borrows from other games, but perhaps the entire game as a whole will work once you filter out your expectations based upon what you've played in other games.

Wint, that's impossible. We, human beings, can never experience anything without the context of everything that came before. You cannot un-experience previous games or MMOs and remove them from the way you interpret a new MMO. It would be awesome if that were possible, since that would allow people to have that "first MMO" magical experience again, but it's just not possible.

We can be open to the possibility of new experiences and new ideas, but when evaluating a game such as FFXIV which mainly consists of things we've already experienced in one way or another, it's impossible not to have some preferences or opinions.

I really wish people would take the game for what it's offering and try it without preconceptions about what they've already experienced in other games. Yes it borrows from other games, but perhaps the entire game as a whole will work once you filter out your expectations based upon what you've played in other games.

Wint, that's impossible. We, human beings, can never experience anything without the context of everything that came before. You cannot un-experience previous games or MMOs and remove them from the way you interpret a new MMO. It would be awesome if that were possible, since that would allow people to have that "first MMO" magical experience again, but it's just not possible.

We can be open to the possibility of new experiences and new ideas, but when evaluating a game such as FFXIV which mainly consists of things we've already experienced in one way or another, it's impossible not to have some preferences or opinions.

I know, wish in one hand and crap in the other, we know which hand will be full first

It's a nice dream. I'm not saying don't have an opinion on how things could be changed, but I just think demanding things should change because it was this way in X game without giving it an honest shot in ARR is a little premature.

I believe it was mentioned already but the average age of gamers is 30+. To add to that there are more adult women gamers (31%) than male gamers 17 or younger (19%). (taken from the website DoYouKnowGaming.com)

This would lead one to assume that as a business SE would be targeting this age group. I also fit into this age group and have limited time to play, however like many others here i have great memories and appreciation for FFXI. This game allows me to pour my feelings for FFXI into it and still have the feeling of accomplishment, increasing my appreciation at the same time.

For me (what I will call the Rule) this game is exactly what I am looking for, however for others, perhaps younger gamers or gamers with more time (the exception to the Rule), this game may only be satisfactory.

SE used up all of their risk taking with the first launch, they cannot afford to take any risk now so they are going to do what will be most appealing to the majority (or Rule) gamers.

The intent behind my post was to show that just because things took forever, that doesn't mean there's a sense of accomplishment to it is bigger than everyone else's. I said what I said because I was admittedly annoyed by the same tired argument from seemingly the same group of players. That said, I still stand by my words. It's been a view I've had for a very long time.

I'm not defending the game towards you, persay, because I respect your opinion as well. But there are a lot of problems with FFXI that I feel players have looked past simply because they got used to it and saw it as the norm, and wanting FFXIV to be like FFXI makes me feel like they're not willing to break out of their bubble. I've had massive fun with other MMOs, and even if it didn't take forever, I can say the game is fun the whole way through. I can legitimately tell my friends to play this game because you won't have to "work around" the problems that FFXI had.

No one is wrong for having that sense of accomplishment in XI. I didn't, and if people asked me how I felt about FFXI, I will stand by what I said and I will not sugarcoat any of it by saying "It's just my opinion". I see that as a suppressant of my experiences and I don't feel anyone has to hide behind that phrase just because it's an unpopular opinion.

This argument is starting to get very circular, so I'm just going to close with saying that having an opinion on something is absolutely valid and appreciated. Stating something as if it's a fact however, will always cause controversy. Whether or not you meant to, your post came off very one-sided, completely discounting those who did gain a sense of accomplishment from goals in FFXI. I also don't think adding that it's your opinion is sugar-coating anything, I think it is just letting people know that you are speaking from your own point of view, instead of in absolutes, which is what your OP came off as.

I think we're in agreement on the direction of XIV, and we both want it to be pretty different from XI.

I do agree with XIV's direction.

The argument is "circular" because there's no argument at all. We simply have different viewpoints on the same game and you felt I was attacking your time spent on FFXI. You felt a sense of accomplishment when you completed something, I felt I checked something off a list, and went on the next thing. No words spoken between you, me, or anyone else will change that.

Yes, my post was one-sided, because it was meant to be, as it is my experience which happens to be unpopular on this forum. If I wanted to encompass everyone else's opinion of the game then my post wouldn't matter because it's not what I felt. If I wanted to imply that everyone here is wrong for having their opinion of FFXI, I would say everyone here is close-minded, but I didn't because I know better.

If everyone realized that words cannot make an absolute truth, the world would be much better off.

Oh look, another "WoW is easy/FFXI is hardcore" thread. Take your narrow mind elsewhere please. You have no idea what you're talking about.

You're not qualified to have an opinion about what others know or don't know. You have an opinion, which is about as special as having a backside, and that's where you can shove your illusory sense of superiority.