On 15/02/2013 kuu wrote:>On 15/02/2013 Will_P wrote:>>Is there an assumption that introducing more people to trad climbing>is>>a good thing here? [That's a genuine question, BTW]>>And it's a good question.>>Personally, I'm happy to find I have a crag to myself. I'm equally happy>to share with another likeminded person/team and converse, socialise, et>cetera.>>I guess the main concern that led me to start this topic (now a flame>war) was the thought that some (most?) people entering the recreation these>days are not aware of the Trad option. And to be fair, probably most of>them would not go down that path even knowing it existed.>
I'm a new climber and a trad only climber and couldn't imagine climbing any other way. Everything about it was so appealing, so I can't really understand where kuu is coming from.

On 15/02/2013 The good Dr wrote:
(snip)>The grumpy old 'tradmasters' generally dont talk to anyone (again based on observation).

Your experience is different to mine in that respect, as most of my latter years of climbing have been spent mentoring new climbers to the game.

>(snip)>Sending some holier than though raving bearded lunatic to them to 'SELL' the experience will never work.

Why not? It is all in the manner of presentation is it not?
~> I have never advocated shoving anything down someones throat, as that is something that I don't like tried on myself...

>(snip?)>It is also unlikely that you will be able to sell it to the majority of that group (particularly given that my observed turnover is about 5 years on average for someone introduced through the gyms).

Yes, the 5 yr turnover seems to apply*, but in my experience this is also largely true of the new-trad climber as well!
☺

(*Sometimes, the thought has occurred to me to give up the game myself, as I have largely achieved all that I want to do within the limitations that I have set myself;... and as I get older I more fully realise that 'life' is a finite resource, with not enough time to achieve all of my transient agendas...
~> Nevertheless, continueing to contribute to Chocky in order to present an alternative view of 'how it used to be' perspective, I consider to be a worthwhile endeavour in the hope that some of the past may continue to influence the future; plus the occasional climbing with those younger and fitter, lends itself to my remaining the same myself!)

Post edit:>Are they really Safer Cliffs?

Hell yes, they have been/continue to be, dumbed down to buggery by ensuing generations.

Post edit, edit; (boozy campfire conversation now...):
I climbed Fearon at Booroomba last weekend with a partner who I have never climbed with before.
It turned out that there was minimal (only the essential) communication used during the climbing, and that suited the occasion as it seemed tacit and integral to the experience, and that we both respected each others ability (though no verbal quantification of same occurred beforehand), and the location we were in.
There was no need for extraneous 'noise'.
I believe we both enjoyed the experience of not only climbing, but communion with the route. I appreciated coming across history in the form of old piton and fixed gear, and the dodging the rain experience (not entirely successful), added to the adventure...
I look forward to returning and leading the pitch that my partner led.
Yeah, cliffs are safe, as long as due respect is applied to all facets of the game.
(... and I enjoyed the beer offered to me after the game ended. Thanks mate ;-))

Life can be grand sometimes, and the climbing experience is good at enhancing it...

I've got a few theories too. IMO - the so called trad climbers are not a homogenous bunch...unfortunately there seems to be a braindead subset who do most of the instructing, who are completely incompetent and seem to thrive on telling schoolies (who couldn't give a fck) that "leading is dangerous". Actually leading trad is not dangerous (unless you are leading a dangerouis climb), its just when an incompetent braindead person is leading that it can become so. Those type tend to spend all day with a team of three climbing salamander, and every time the brave leader sets off on another pitch of this epic he reminds his shivering crew the fact that he is risking his life for them but expects no reward other than their adoration.

On 15/02/2013 kuu wrote:>Essentially, I think it is up to "Trad" climbers to promote their approach>to climbing rather than grizzle about the activities of bolters.>

I wasn't trying to educate you kuu - I know you've been around as long as me, and climbed a lot more.

I'm just not sure why you (we / anyone) would want to promote "trad" climbing over any other type of climbing, as long as people aren't retro-ing trad climbs. Its not as if trad is ever going to be very popular, and (probably selfishly) I think that's probably a good thing.

>I'm just not sure why you (we / anyone) would want to promote "trad" climbing>over any other type of climbing, as long as people aren't retro-ing trad climbs.

It's not just the problem of existing climbs be affected by retro-ing, it is also the possibilities of future clean-climbs that gets compromised.
And when fervant ringbolters infringe on established traditional/mixed areas and ringbolt what could have been climbed clean it is a problem . . .

And as to 'why'? well it is a 'more pure' form of climbing and/or it is more difficult (if you are in to that sort of thing) . . .
Ultimately if it needs to be over-explained it probably isn't going to be understood, it's one of those sort of things . . .
But yeah it's probab;y a good thing that the wrong people don't try this, but how do we make sure the right people at least get the chance?

On 17/02/2013 technogeekery wrote:>
(snip) >as long as people aren't retro-ing trad climbs.

It was after following for a week or so the Buffalo Bolting thread elsewhere on Chockstone that I was moved to make my original OP.

Retro-bolting of trad climbs HAS occurred, often resulting in much discussion on this site, and I was suggesting that 'tradsters' might need to counter this by better stating the case for their climbing style.

On 17/02/2013 kuu wrote:>It was after following for a week or so the Buffalo Bolting thread elsewhere>on Chockstone that I was moved to make my original OP.>>Retro-bolting of trad climbs HAS occurred, often resulting in much discussion>on this site, and I was suggesting that 'tradsters' might need to counter>this by better stating the case for their climbing style.

Hmm, does this mean that if I was to better state the case for clean-aid climbing, that new proponents would take it up?
~> I doubt it, though in certain cases it still has great merit.

I think it comes down to respect.
Call me naive but I tend to think that anyone who emerges from a gym or bouldering background is at least aware of trad, and dare I say mountaineering as well. Whether or not they aspire to do those genres’ is a moot point, however the imposition of the 'less than trad' style onto potential trad climbs is where the lack of respect for the trad culture is shown.

>~> Nevertheless, continueing to contribute to Chocky in order to present>an alternative view of 'how it used to be' perspective, I consider to be>a worthwhile endeavour in the hope that some of the past may continue to>influence the future; plus the occasional climbing with those younger and>fitter, lends itself to my remaining the same myself!)

>Call me naive but I tend to think that anyone who emerges from a gym or>bouldering background is at least aware of trad, and dare I say mountaineering>as well. Whether or not they aspire to do those genres’ is a moot point,