Monday, January 4, 2010

As the new year begins, I'm delighted to see that this blog has attracted a crowd of very smart commenters lately (actually, many of them are "scary smart," as a friend used to say -- though not about me). Complicated, multifarious conversations have recently ensued here, some of them across several comment threads. I sometimes have trouble keeping track of it all, and participating, let alone moderating every comment.

I'm writing this post at the request of several commenters, who thought that this particular comment thread contained enough riches to merit a separate post. It actually merits several. I'll do my best to summarize what seems to me most worth highlighting there, as well as the parts that I learned the most from (which means that this post is just my limited take on it -- do please point out if you can whatever I'm missing that was significant, and whatever I'm misstating).* I encourage you to read the entire thread, especially because I simply can't summarize its many qualities here.

The post that prompted the discussion is about the common white tendency to offer amateur diagnoses of mental illness, often as a way of derailing a discussion of racism (which is also, more or less, the topic of fromthetropics' recent post here). Early in the ensuing comments, self-identified black woman Witchsistah pointed out that while I'd been driven to write the post because "everyone and their momma" had jumped on me for offering my own amateur diagnosis of potential mental illness in a white man, no one had jumped on other commenters (in earlier threads) for in effect diagnosing her with mental illness:

All I know is people have been head-shrinking ME here without credentials and no one but me and RVCBard have said BOO to them. But when it happens to a White man everyone goes apeshit. Yeah, it may be because they don't want to give racists excuses and passes for their racism or soften up racist acts, but very few outside of the aforementioned and Imhotep who wondered why folks were trying to take our heads off, have even bothered to question the headshrinking into Angry Black Bitch diagnosis and dismissal that has happened to me.

On a blog about racism, this was a great and sad irony. A "group fail," as described by Willow, who went on to write,

Witchsistah's point is that there was also a very concrete situation of a black woman being pathologized very *explicitly* to delegitimize her experiences, and nobody else spoke out. . . . this was a concrete chance for WP in particular, but also non-BW as a whole, to show online that they are in the fight against racism for the benefit of black women** . . . And at this, we failed.

That seems to me like a teachable moment already, one lesson being that white people need to step in when black women, and any POC, are getting mentally and emotionally (mis)diagnosed by other white people, and to even see that the (mis)diagnosis is happening. They should also realize that they're more likely to step in when white people are being (mis)diagnosed, and otherwise mistreated (cf. "missing white woman syndrome"), than they are when that's happening to non-white people, and that they're doing so because, honestly, at some deep, unexamined level, they value black women, and other people of color, less than they do white people.

So yes, a teachable moment indeed. But the conversation soon got even more revealing, at least for me, when I found myself doing that kind of thing too. The funny sad and ultimately oppressive thing is, I thought I was doing the opposite.

This next level of revelation (again, for white folks -- I gather that none of this is anything new to a lot of people of color) began when Sheila, a self-identified white woman, announced her support of Witchsista, along with -- crucially -- an explanation of why she hadn't offered it before:

As for 'defending' or 'not defending' Witchsistah, all I have to say on my own behalf is she seems fully capable of defending herself here and there would be nothing left for me to do but plant a 'me, too' flag on whatever smoking crater is left when she's done.

Sheila's comment struck a chord with me, especially because I thought that image captured well what I too see left behind after some of Witchsistah's replies to other commenters. And so, I wrote in a comment,

I won't speak for Sheila, but I felt good about finally expressing my support for this black woman's oft-derided efforts here.

Little did I realize.

When a white (male?) commenter named Lutsen asked Witchsistah what she thought of those two responses, she called them "disingenuous," and then went on to explain,

This constant non-defending of BW comes directly from the stereotype of BW not being "real" women as in not being seen as delicate, feminine, worthy of care, affection and protection. We are seen as "mules uh duh worl'" and as rhino-hided, she-beasts utterly incapable of delicate, complex feelings or thoughts. Basically no one defends us because we can "take it." It also leads to the idea that BW cannot ever be harmed (from this comes the view that BW are un-rapeable).

It's interesting. Treatment that would be seen as retrograde for other women is really radical for BW. Being seen and treated as valued, feminine, womanly and ladylike would be progressive when applied to BW.

That seems clear enough, but, white guy that I am (and whatever else I am), I still wasn't getting it. I responded defensively to the "disingenuous" label, and again later in the thread. I don't mean to make this post all about me and what I did and didn't do in that thread; I also don't want to go on and on here summarizing that thread, because I sense that I'm losing readers of an overly lengthy post already. I want to summarize something worthwhile from that thread for well-meaning white people.

So, I'll just say that what I came to realize, especially with the patient help of Witchsistah, RVCBard, Commie Bastard, Lady Dani Mo and others, was that while I thought I was expressing solidarity with Witchsistah, and with black women and POC more generally, by seconding Sheila's comment, what I was actually (or, maybe, also) doing was reducing her to the stereotype of an aggressive, loud, and angry black woman. In that sense, then, I was acting "white."

The thing is -- well, one thing is -- Witchsistah is clearly more than that. She's written more than enough here for me to gather that she's scary-smart, too. And so, among other current commenters, is another black woman, RVCBard, who has pointed out how she gets received here (and elsewhere) when she instead writes in a calm, rational, seemingly smart (instead of seemingly angry or aggressive) way -- she often gets ignored. And she certainly doesn't get the kind of attention that Witchsistah does when she writes in ways that seem to trigger common conceptions of the "Angry Black Bitch."

So what I'm seeing here, in what I'm sure is a rudimentary way, is a reductive, paradoxical set of conceptions and expectations that gets imposed on black women by well-meaning white people (like me). When they express themselves with any sort of conviction or passion or vehemence, or sometimes even humor, we typically see them as either "angry" (when we disagree with them) or as "feisty" and "strong" and "perfectly capable of defending themselves" (when we agree with them). In both cases, we reduce black women to a simple, non-rational, purely emotive caricature, which blots out the rest of their humanity. Also, I think our tendency to deny their full humanity, especially their intelligence, has been further demonstrated here by the relative lack of attention received by RVCBard's . . . shall we say, less demonstrative? approach. Even when she uses that approach to point out precisely what I'm trying to summarize here.

So, as the title of this post says, white people tend to treat black women like they're made of teflon and adamantium (thank you for suggesting even that title, RVCBard -- I recognize, though, that I haven't even addressed the "teflon" part). We also tend to pay them less attention when they don't act that way. And so . . . well, I hate this feeling I've had writing while writing this entire post, that I'm speaking too much about what black women, and other people of color, have to go through. Who am I to say?

So I'm just going to leave off with words by RVCBard, and then a few more by Witchsistah:

When Black women talk about their experiences as Black women here at SWPD, people (particularly White people, but at times other WoC as well), tend to respond with knee-jerk contradictions (typically betraying a lack of true engagement with the content) or remain silent.

For me, personally, it would be nice to see more comments make a more proactive attempt to engage with Black women in a more constructive way.

How about treating Black women as if we are, first of all, human? Yeah, it goes without saying, but from how we're treated, I'm not always sure people truly assume that from jump street. How about treating Black women like women and not disobedient children? Again, it goes without saying, but from what I've seen, I'm not sure if a lot of you really grasp that. How about treating Black women as though our lives are important to us? Once more, it goes without saying, but the things I've seen make me question whether you genuinely understand that.

IMO, there will be less explosive fireworks and fewer ruffled feathers if more people started showing us that they are operating from these very basic foundational concepts.

And finally, some words that Witchsistah wrote elsewhere, directly to me, words that I appreciate, like all those above and elsewhere, and words that I'm doing my best to take to heart, and mind, and actions:

We're actual people. You seem to encounter a huge stumbling block regarding seeing me and RVCBard AS people. You definitely need to examine the hell out of that.

* I also recognize now -- again from comments in that same thread -- that the very way I'm restating in this post some insights uttered by people of color is a common, and probably egregious, white way of taking part in discussions of racism. As Cloudy wrote in that comment thread, "you know what gets old really quickly? When white people parrot back exactly what was said to them but preface it with an 'It sounds like...' as if they were the ones who observed everything and came to this conclusion. Never 'Am I correct in understanding...?'" I hope I've registered in the way I wrote this post that I'm not sure I'm correctly understanding the conversation that I'm writing about. I started out writing the entire post in the form of "Am I correct?"-like questions, but I decided it was becoming difficult and tedious to read.

** Willow's footnote says, "all POC, but Witchsistah is right in that BW and, I think, Native American women get treated particularly callously"

269 comments:

Since I've been put on the spot here, let me just reiterate that I'm sorry for what I said, and I will try to do better in future. I'm still figuring out how to offer my support without sounding like I'm asking for a cookie, and I may screw up at least a few more times until I get the hang of it.

All I know is people have been head-shrinking ME here without credentials and no one but me and RVCBard have said BOO to them. But when it happens to a White man everyone goes apeshit. Yeah, it may be because they don't want to give racists excuses and passes for their racism or soften up racist acts, but very few outside of the aforementioned and Imhotep who wondered why folks were trying to take our heads off, have even bothered to question the headshrinking into Angry Black Bitch diagnosis and dismissal that has happened to me.

Yeahhhhh... I'm getting the sense that I may be the only transracial and transnational foster bastard of color in the joint. *hoists flag*

Whether I am or not, I'm going to have to strongly object to having MY experiences and reasons for opposing Macon's foray into clinical psych conflated with Whitey's, even anti-racist Whitey's.

There's so much intersectionality going on with those who suffer most from the white amateur/incompetent pathologization epidemic that not wanting to "give racists excuses and passes for their racism or soften up racist acts," as RVCBard puts it, is just ONE part of the need to challenge it to its death.

Whether Witchsistah or anyone other non-bastard here chooses to address it, the white privileged and Western tendency to pathologize willy-nilly DOES have lethal consequences for people like me.

Given that my initial and early "going apeshit" seemed to resonate with so many people, I've got to put this out there.

And as for the "group fail" as Willow calls it, I'd clarify that this was a failure of the white group only.

To quote Cloudy, "[l]ooking back through the old threads, such as the ones with KD, myself and several others (Commie Bastard, Lady Dani Mo, Imhotep, more) did stand up for you."

So it seems that people of color were there for their fellow when Heizenwhatshirface slung troll shit at Witchsistah, but the white people assuredly weren't.

And sure, the white people here most likely outnumber us, but I for one really don't consider them representative of the group as a whole, if only because it's the POC who are more active, eloquent and substantive, IMHO.

Wow. Yeah.It's been quite the fortnight here at SWPD; I have to say I'm kinda wrung out. Deep thanks (and hugs if ya need 'em) to Witchsistah, RVC, Lady Dani, Willow, and everyone else who helped, at their own emotional expense. And to Macon. It couldn't have been easy— I know I cried some BWT— so thanks, for real.

I think "even" I learned something. Allow me to ramble here: On some level I knew it— many's the time I've cried myself to sleep wondering why people act like I have no feelings, and many's the time I've been explicitly told that I was so "strong" or "intimidating" (and been hurt by that)— but for some reason, until these last few threads, and all the testimony, all in one place... I don't think I every really accepted that it was to the Strong(/Scary/Crazy) Black Woman motif at work. I think... I couldn't face it.*

How bizarre? Because, this comes up a lot. It always has. I've always noticed it: I'm proud to be independent, but... I've never actually been able to get help from anyone. It's crazy rare. They tend not to help when I ask, and they never offer. Nobody has ever, in my life, asked me if I was lost, even when I clearly looked it— not even a cop. No one asks me if I'm alright, even if I'm crying in the street or in a store, or I'm clearly seriously ill. They just glance at me, note my situation, and pass on. I'd say "my plight," but I don't think it's ever recognized as a plight. They see me, but not my distress. Ask (plead!) for help, get blown off with a cheery "you can do it!" Well, clearly I cannot, or I wouldn't be asking! But eventually I'll figure it out, won't I? Since I'll have to.

Insanely, I'd pretty well convinced myself that it was because I'm tall. "No love for the nonpetite woman," I thought.Can you believe that? It's almost funny!Denial: it's a helluva drug.

______*Example: At 19 I got a teeny blonde roommate. The way people (everyone, but especially men) fell all over themselves to help her out! Sometimes literally! People gave her things. Constantly. People did things for her without her asking. I did not exist if she was around. It was the most extreme example I'd ever seen of perceived femininity in action. She never even seemed to notice it was happening. She also never had her shit together. Ever. And I almost... could you blame her? She didn't have to. Even acting the helpless fool, somehow her life was better and more fun than mine. I grew to hate her. Her blonde petiteness. That's what was causing it, so that's what I hated. That, and my own tallness. Now. You notice the word blonde there? Well, I never did. Even though I angrily repeated that phrase in my head for 3 years, I never really did. Sigh.

The only way this treatment will cease to happen is when the "European Mis-Standard of Beauty" will end. When WW are no longer seen as the sole women "deserving" of protected virtue, the prospect of treating us as though we're made of flesh, blood, and feelings will begin.

Not to derail - but, black males will have to carry the work as well. Until they realize that their lack of support and indirect "approval" of such mistreatment ends, I feel that fair treatment will begin.

Not to derail - but, black males will have to carry the work as well. Until they realize that their lack of support and indirect "approval" of such mistreatment ends, I feel that fair treatment will begin.

Okay, that's been said once, and I think on a blog about stuff white people do, a blog that's run by and moderated by a white guy, that once is enough, please. I'm all for POC saying what they want to say in a discussion of racism here, and I suppose it's not really for me to say that honeybrown1976 shouldn't have said that here, but let's please keep the focus on white racism, m'kay?

Macon, white racism has to be examined beyond their direct actions. If not, your blog is worthless. White racism affects black women and their relationships. Deal. Thanks for creating the stereotypes that black women face on a daily basis. Then, influencing their male counterparts to do the same and see hilarity ensue (*snark*).

If it's white behavior that you have to personally see, Macon D., I don't think you're ready for a true discussion. Once again, stop playing the expert on Race and what should and should not be discussed as the cold cancer called white racism have destroyed much of life's aspects.

"How can you affirm the humanity of Black women from jump street instead of waiting for us to prove it to you?" -RVCBard

RVCBard challenged the rest of us with these. Macon punted. I offered a couple of thoughts that have arisen in conversations I've had in meatspace. Then it got dropped. Once again, as RVCBard has pointed out, a post of her that offered something of substance was more or less ignored in favor of discussion of her snarkier statements.

This is not a coincidence.

One of the REPEATED failures of anti-racist discourse in general, but specifically of WP in it, is a tendency to focus on the abstract. Racism is "interesting." While I don't know for sure which of her comments RVCBard considers the most insightful, IMHO her best ones are the ones that are quite observant about *concrete* matters, whereas snark tends to be more ephemeral. And more popular. But it's not challenging. So. How about it, people. What are some concrete ideas that YOU have about this? How can we, especially white people but ALL non Black women, affirm the humanity of Black women without making them prove it to us through suffering?

(What I said was 1. work (in meatspace) to stop that suffering and prevent further suffering 2. pay attention to what BW say and do when they're not falling w/in the boundaries of stereotypes 3. realize that when they are acting in accordance w/stereotypes it is possibly, though not always, on purpose and that there is a definite message you should be getting from this fact)

honeybrown1976, I have no doubt that racism affects black women and their relationships. I also have no doubt that I'm not an expert on race, and I also think it's very likely that you know a lot more as a black woman about racism than I do as a white man. That said, your comment about black men said nothing in particular about the influence on them of white racism -- unless I missed it -- and it could've led to a "derailing" (to use your own word) discussion of issues that I don't feel rightly positioned (as a white person) to try to moderate. If anyone wants to talk here about intra-POC relationships in direct connection to white racism, that's fine. But on a blog that I'm trying to run about stuff white people do (in the interests of curtailing the obnoxious things that they do), it seems to me that I am, again, in no position to moderate fairly a discussion of intra-POC relationships (a potentially inflammatory discussion) that isn't clearly about white racism.

When it comes to how Black men are often encouraged to treat Black women, I've gotta say that shit ain't new, and it certainly didn't start with Black men. BET and rap music didn't turn Black women into bitches and ho's. Without the racialization of cult of true womanhood, along with the dehumanizing abuse and exploitation visited upon Black women justified and caused by it (Get your hands on a movie called "Mandingo" for an idea of what it was like), any discussion of Black men's racialized sexism doesn't make sense. While it is worthwhile to discuss with Black men how they perpetuate the same treatment visited upon us by White people, I'm reluctant to redirect the discussion to critique them instead of focusing on habitual White patterns and behaviors.

Macon, just--what the hell? So, my commitment to fighting racism is at root a feminist one, in that "No woman is free until ALL WOMEN are free," right? Well, by the same token, "No POC is free until ALL POC, including Black women, are free" and dammit, that includes systemic oppression by white men, other MOC, and specifically Black men. (As honeybrown points out, this is relevant on swpd because Whiteness is still the root cause of this oppression and Whiteness is still the ultimate guilty party. Although IMHO the only "relevance" that is needed is that it is relevant to the oppression of WOC)

Um, I think WP as a whole do, yes. In part because it is a question that I have seen Black women ask again and again: why do you dehumanize us/why don't you see us as human/how can you treat us as human. I can be rather dense on occasion, but eventually I get the point. (Uhhh...usually). The fact that nobody else ever answers suggests that we (WP) do indeed need ideas.

RVC, I agree with you. We both know it's not new. However, the media continues this pervasive ugliness. It's a cancer that is growing. The seed was set, water, and is still nurtured. For example, why is it glorious to have WW paraded with full lips; but not me? Now, granted I still face racism, like you, despite being told "I'm exotic".

I just think that this topic intersects with so much that it's too complex to just apply it to one.

I feel fine discussing how White men's attitudes towards and treatment of Black women contribute to the dehumanization of Black women by Black men (as well as the effects of that treatment), but I don't feel comfortable talking about the sexism of Black men in exclusion of that on a blog moderated by a White man when no men of color are present. It seems like it's setting the discussion for failure of the "Black men ain't shit" sort.

How can we, especially white people but ALL non Black women, affirm the humanity of Black women without making them prove it to us through suffering?

@Willow: Non-black or white? Because white people tend to confuse the two, often consciously for their own convenience, ESPECIALLY white Americans.

And if it's the former, why in hell are you placing an onus for educating white people on how to treat other people like human beings on any nonwhites?

I dunno, this request smacks of "well-meaning" white liberal hypocrisy - expecting the oppressed to do all the work in ending oppression, as opposed to the actual oppressors who, to paraphrase Lutsen, are in a far better position to upend racism given that they are the ones committing it!

But admittedly, this is a markedly unique iteration of that - it's like you're outsourcing work that oppressors need to do with regard to one group they've oppressed to OTHER groups they've oppressed.

Macon does take his whiteness pills from time to time, which speaks volumes on Anti-Racism or maybe White Liberalism.

I'll save the discussion for a more apt blog. But, I must reiterate that white racism is worse in the subversive end and it runs deeper and less checked than "racist t-shirts" or "mentioning a desire to be ethnic".

"How can you affirm the humanity of Black women from jump street instead of waiting for us to prove it to you?" -RVCBard

RVCBard challenged the rest of us with these. Macon punted.

Um, not if "punted" means what I think you're saying it means. I tried to answer here. I'm glad you've revived the questions (which also appear in the current post); I second your answers (some of which I think echo what I basically say in this post); and I look forward to others.

I feel fine discussing how White men's attitudes towards and treatment of Black women contribute to the dehumanization of Black women by Black men (as well as the effects of that treatment), but I don't feel comfortable talking about the sexism of Black men in exclusion of that on a blog moderated by a White man when no men of color are present. It seems like it's setting the discussion for failure of the "Black men ain't shit" sort.

I could care less about protecting Black men's feelings. I'm more concerned about a discussion about the sexism of Black men being used by White people to be more racist ("But Black women say the same thing!" is not that far from, "I have a Black friend").

CB, that's a good point. I guess I'm looking at it like "Black women are on the bottom and everyone else is responsible here," but we do have different degrees or types of responsibility. I do hope I hear from other WP, and as I said to honeybrown I believe there *is* a general need for concrete examples. But yeah, I think that having it as an invitation to everyone was an attempt to address two things: 1. I don't think WP actually have any ideas (e.g. Macon punted and everyone else ignored it, and has ignored the same question in the past; to be fair, so have I) 2. A genuine belief, grounded in my own experiences, that BW in general are more oppressed than other POC/are oppressed by other POC.

Not to derail - but, black males will have to carry the work as well. Until they realize that their lack of support and indirect "approval" of such mistreatment ends, I feel that fair treatment will begin.

It's very necessary to discuss but this is going to get ugly. There are Black males and other men of color who have internalized White male patriarchy racism and sexism upon their own race of women. Which makes also makes it harder for people to understand because some people think because a man of the same race demeans their own women, then it's okay because they are the same race. It's also very hard for some men of color to understand this because they still see themselves as victims of racism so they feel that they can't possibly internalized and used the White male patriarchy racism and sexism against their own women because they don't benefit. However, some do internalize this ideology and this what makes intersectionality very difficult for some people to understand when it happens to women of color. Especially Black women. So although I understand your comment and feel it needs to be discussed, but I am afraid this discussion is going to end in a warzone between Black men and Black women and White people are going to be forgotten in this discussion LOL.

I feel fine discussing how White men's attitudes towards and treatment of Black women contribute to the dehumanization of Black women by Black men (as well as the effects of that treatment), but I don't feel comfortable talking about the sexism of Black men in exclusion of that on a blog moderated by a White man when no men of color are present. It seems like it's setting the discussion for failure of the "Black men ain't shit" sort.

Co-sign! I could not have said it better. I think it's best for us to discuss White people's attitudes towards Black women. That alone seems to not be discussed in the anti-racist blogosphere. Most White people are still not use to racism and sexism affecting Black women. It's been mostly discussed and more popular amongest Black men for White people to know and understand.

honeybrown1976 said:

Maybe I'm tired of protecting the feelings of those who aren't protecting mine.

I think it's best for us to discuss White people's attitudes towards Black women. That alone seems to not be discussed in the anti-racist blogosphere. Most White people are still not use to racism and sexism affecting Black women.

A genuine belief, grounded in my own experiences, that BW in general are more oppressed than other POC/are oppressed by other POC.

What. The fucking. FUCK.

So rape tourism, genocide, child sexual slavery, sweatshop labor for pennies a day in substandard conditions at gunpoint and domestic illegal "alien" labor forces that developed countries depend upon are all comparative walks in the park, hey?

I speak about MY experiences as a Black woman in America because those are the ones I know best about. Any one else's I'd be guessing at. I learned my lesson a long time ago about speaking up for other folks. I can't even speak as a rep for Black womanhood because there are myriad experiences there and we do not all come from the same place. Therefore I speak on my experiences with the Angry Black Bitch label. I can't speak about your experiences as a "transracial and transnational foster bastard of color" because I'm not one.

I agree with you about the comparisons of oppressions or trying to play "Who Has It Worst?" White supremacy has fucked up and continues to fuck up all groups of PoC WORLDWIDE in myriad ways.

I'm sorry that I conflated your explanations with why head-shrinking folk without a license or their consent (they didn't retain you as their therapist) with the reason why so many others were all about the outrage over head-shrinking a White. I'm sorry I didn't acknowledge all of the PoC who DID have my back vs. the folks who did not. I should not have let my frustration do the typing. You're right, it seems that here PoC seem to participate the most.

I'm wondering about my effectiveness here vs. the toll it seems to be taking on me. CB, you'll probably have more room to voice your views from your perspective as I'm considering taking a leave of absence from here and from all racial/gender discussions for a while and concentrating on the OTHER aspects of my humanity.

Not exactly. It's rather the tendency of White people to make a hierarchy out of differences and applying that hierarchy to unique experiences, as if racism or sexism or homophobia affects everyone the same way - which they don't.

One of the obvious outcomes of this is outright bigotry. "I am White, therefore I am better than you."

But on a more nuanced angle - and the one Well-Meaning White Liberals fall into most often - is the habit I describe above. ("Gay is the new Black.")

See, this is why I don't see the point of us even being here. First off, we're being Bad Darkies and making the others look bad and scaring off poor, delicate White folks from giving us a pat on the head. Now, we're demanding they actually see us as human. Clearly we've hit "tilt" on the pinball machine here.

You're probably disappointed in that you would sit back and let the BW teach you and your readers how to treat us. When the basic answers are 1) listen; 2) listen, 3) listen, and 4) implement. It's common sense, right?

I gave you hints to pick up on. The subversive nature of white racism in the media, the creation of said stereotypes, and how the creator spreads it underhandedly.

I wanted a lively discussion. But, I teach for a living and don't want to teach when I get home on a blog.

So I actually read this entire thread, which was (@RVCBard, @honeybrown, @macon, and @Kia) draining, frustrating, and a journey in itself. In fact, I had to go back to the original post to remember what the hell everyone was talking about in the first place. These are some of my unfiltered thoughts:

Race in america is still very black and white. Literally, Black vs White. No other colors involved. I have mixed feelings about this because understanding black/white race relations in this country's past is very important to the big picture of race relations in the U.S. But in the process, discrimination against other oppressed groups tends to get ignored. Granted this post is about the dismissal of black women, but it seems "discussions" about other groups get sidetracked in the comments section to "happens to black people too". (observe threads from "fetishize native americans in aspic" and "enjoy white-guilt redemption fantasies" just to name a few). I guess i'm suggesting that maybe we would all stay on topic better if we speak less from how a particular post directly effects our personal identities and try to take it a step further and think about how a post affects us, the person who wrote to post, and how that intersectionality can be applied to a solution that would help all of us gain a better perspective on our society. Maybe this trend that I perceive is a reflection of the demographics of those who read this blog? Because if the only two groups that read this blog are Black people and White people, then my point is completely worthless lol

As far as my initial response to the actual post regarding Black Women are treated like teflon and Wolverine, my first response was "it's the media's fault". But I've always felt that reaction was such a cop-out because it's a way for me to relieve myself from the responsibility of self-analyzation about my perception of Black Women because from where I stand, I can't help what media puts out. Of course I can critically consume what I see, but what I wonder is, can I really know what my perception of Black Women is until I am confronted by a situation where I interact with a group I am not familiar with? It's easy for me (a mixed Japanese/White male) to think to myself "Next time I interact with a Black Woman, I'll treat her like a human being" but actions speak louder than words. Will I actually do that when the time comes? or will my subconscious superiority get in the way like dominant identities tend to do? Not that my identity is superior to yours, but I think we are raised in a society that trains us to think that way. Not that my subconscious is an excuse to be a bigot.

For some reason my thoughts got on track with Men of Color (MoC) Masculinity. I think MoC strongly align with their race and vividly see their disadvantage in the area of race. In addition (correct me if I'm wrong), since the White Male is a standard in this country, MoC can never be equal. I think MoC overcompensate by being hyper-masculine which interprets to gender oppression within race. Sad, hypocritical and inexcusable, but a reality. MoC feel the need to hold onto whatever privilege/power they have. I feel like this concept of privilege/power is a result of (and modeled) after U.S. White-supremacy.

I'm gonna sleep on this (its 2:30 AM here) and re-read this whole thing. But feedback on my gut instinct is important to me so please don't hold back your responses.

This is the way I feel about this issue:It is extremely hard/uncomfortable for people to focus positive attention on black women. (even by other black women) People quickly change focus.

In general, you can forget about apologising for causing offense. That right there, is a holy grail many will never see and if they do, they will thank the apologiser profusely leaving the person feeling not remorse but magnanimous for 'doing something nice to a black woman'.

I think this happens, for the very reason this thread was created. People, (across the board including fellow women of colour) have been condition and indoctrinated to see us as non-human.

We are simply there.

We are the womb to deliver black babes which will become men, who 'experience racism from the man' and women who are simply more wombs on a production line

We are there to have 'ugly' (I, of course do not believe this) physical attributes which are emulated by other cultures and then proclaimed as stunningly beautiful.

We are there to show what can be overcome when the worst violation is done to your mind, spirit and body. - and then walked away from because of course that leaves scars and nobody wants to be dirtied by that

We are there to teach our cooking skills, sex skills, knowledge skills, singing skills - but not to be part of the end product or development or headline an act. Those headliners are anomilies or only there because their particular 'black woman skill' has not be analysed, theorised, captured and processed yet. When it is, they will be disposed of.

We are there to nurture other peoples wounds - because we have been soo wounded but miraculously continue to exist that, it should be second nature to us and is our responsibility to do.

We are there to protect YOU (anyone other than fellow black women), because we do not need any protection. We are so darn capable.

We are there to be expendable, because we are fertile and can keep on producing more of us to carry out the work when one of us is gone.

This feeling is systemic and endemic and has been rooted in generations for centuries. It is societal and in our subconcious. It is something you have to 'unlearn' because it is fed to us on the daily to everyone of us, and to the few black women who manage to escape it, they are: - derided for their intelligence (uppity, snobbish, know it all, stand offish, unfriendly, unrealistic) escape it. - condemned for demanding respect - ridiculed (she's crazy!, who does she think she is? a queen) - humiliated (lets knock her down to size) - isolated and bullied. (fall in line biyatch!,)

The message I get from most people when dealing with me as a black woman is this..

You will not be more than I allow you to be, you will not do more than I allow you to do.Yes I know you can do this, but I haven't approved itStay in your line. stay in your place.

Yet. yet. yet. We survive this BS. day in, day out. Because we have to.Life is worth living, and we will live it because there are no second tries of which you are uniquely aware of.

Whiteness is as whiteness does, and treating Black women poorly is one of its core principles. For immediately according to the code of whiteness Black women cannot be beautiful or feminine or delicate, those attributes are reserved for white women only! To compound matters all the "unlady" like traits (as defined by WP) are dumped at the door steps of Black women. For this stupendous mindfuck to work, WP who control every media, and therefore dissemination of stereotypes, these motherf***kers gets to dictate beauty standards and social behavior, and they do so at the detriment of Black women. What white people do is what they have always done, and that is rob Black folks of our humanity, and in this case Black women. In so doing this allows for the worst kinds of psychological and physical attacks against Black women, and whiteness could care less.

As I write this I realize that I may be condemning all white america, truth is I don't care, because the few well meaning of you out there is not enough for me to use a qualifier. For example all of you have seen at one time or another a Black woman being marginalized, but yet you have no comment for this blog, hell you may have been the perpetrator, but chances are you just stood by silently and watched the psychological rape take place and did nothing.

A few of the sisters on this board have tried to engage in earnest dialogue, but the timidity of white folks to engage these sisters on these substantive issues is appalling. As Black folks we are not looking for an amen corner, and we can agree to disagree, but we don't have time for those that are comfortable with their stereotypical beliefs. That said your silence is deafening.

Kudos to Lutsen, he actually cared enough or was concerned or just plain curious to know the thoughts of Witchsista when Julia gave what she intended to be a compliment, and was co-x by Macon. Lutsed did not make such an asumption. When you engage someone about their thoughts, feelings concerns, is a sign to me that on some level you recognize their humanity.

WitchSista, I'm thankful that you shared your eloquence and brilliance with this blog. It was a learning experience for me. Thank you, and I hope you reconsider.

I think the problem with asking what whites can do to treat black women as really human is that it's not about what you do. It's about how you think. You either see them as human, or you don't. If you just focus on actions, you'll just be appeasing the scary angry black people, if you see what I mean, and that's an unhealthy dynamic.

I'm not sure how to make such a mental switch happen, but I do think a mental switch is what's needed.

@ CB: Coolness, sorry I worded it badly. Thank you for calling me out originally, as WIWL is a trap I am trying really, *really* hard not to fall into/stay stuck in. And thanks to RVCBard for stating it much, much better than I did.

Also:

>> "Am I the only one who feels drained and disappointed in most of the discussion on this thread?"

Okay, so, some of that is my fault and I'm really sorry. But worse/just as bad, I guess, is that it plays into a larger pattern online: even in a discussion specifically about Black women that involves mostly Black women but also white people (as well as other POC, but WP singled out in particular for, um, obvious reasons), it has a negative impact on BW. But the solution CAN'T be "not to talk about it."

Or is it just, WP shouldn't talk about Black women, we should just shut up and listen?

To the Black women here, I am sorry for spewing white ugliness all over this thread. Witchsistah, take care of yourself.

I guess I never realized the comment threads were so explosive. It actually amazes me that shit like this happens so often here. I tend to read my blogs at work so I don't always have the time to look through the comments section and rarely anytime to write a comment (since I tend to like my comments to be thoughtful which can take more time than I got). I have been reading the comments sections lately (since they've been referenced so often in the actual posts) and really have been shocked by how the POC on the threads and especially BW are attacked/ignored/belittled. And I think I am still shocked by how infuriating this space can be for POC, and I never knew since I never had time to delve into the comments. If time allowed I would definitely voice my opinions more often and get into the discussions, though sometimes I feel I wouldn't add much or wouldn't have much experience to speak from.

I do love reading everyone's thoughts when I get the chance, and I must admit on some of the threads the troll smack downs have made me lol. Many of the people here make this community and blog, and wouldn't be the same without their discussion and input. I honestly just wish this space could be better (either through better moderating or Macon taking a little more time to address ignorant comments since I would assume he does have the time to do so since he writes the blog) and less infuriating for those who wish to have an intelligent and worth while discussion. I guess it's horribly telling when an anti-racism blog is often times as racist as the content it claims to rail against. Treating everyone as human should be so damned easy (especially on the internet when you can't see anyone so it's hard to make straight up judgements based on looks, although assumptions are always made, which I guess could even be worse...) and yet it seems to be so damned hard. There's no point in just planting a "me too!" flag with all that shit swirling around. If you want to add a me too put some words to it. Anyone can say "me too!" and then boast that they aren't racist because, look, they stood behind that BW and gave a head nod. It's fine to agree, but I think stuff like this needs more than a simple me too. If that makes sense? I know if I was busy trying to fight for myself and get my points across and no one was listening or I was feeling attacked I wouldn't just want a "me too!" It's too easy to say me too, especially after all the shit has hit the fan.

If that makes any sense, lol. It's still early here and got a crap ton of work staring at me on my desk. :x

I hadn't thought much about whether or not I treat WoC, particularly BW, differently than I treat WW until I read the comments on that post. One fact about me is - I don't associate with any white women except for my mother. I don't have any white friends except ones I say hello to once a year on Facebook. I never had many in the first place but that's not really what I find disturbing. The disturbing part is that I have probably regarded my own friends and family as Teflons instead of individual women at times when they needed me to not do that to them. We grew up together, so I'm fortunate that they still loved me anyway. But I'm glad I can be a better friend to them now, even this late in the game. This has been incredibly eye-opening for me.

And I can totally now see why it's been said that it's easier to deal with blatantly racist whites than it is to deal with liberal progressively racist ones. Unlike the blatants who will say that upbringing and negative experiences with PoC are to blame for their racism, I've had an upbringing and a lifetime of positive experiences with PoC. That seems to have served to mask the deepest planted pits of systemic racism within me. My friends and family have loved me too much to either see it or if they saw it - to object. So I walk around thinking it's not there. And you can't even being to fix what you refuse to see.

I didn't mean to bring up another point here, but it was just driven home for me as I was typing out that first paragraph.

It’s hard to contribute to a discussion of something I don’t think I’ve ever experienced myself, nor seen around me (I’ve lived most of my life in cities where the black population is almost non-existent). But here’s trying – Here’s a concrete example of how black women aren’t seen as feminine or having feelings courtesy of thesciencegirl who shared her experience of getting pushed off sidewalks.

I think MoC overcompensate by being hyper-masculine which interprets to gender oppression within race. Sad, hypocritical and inexcusable, but a reality. MoC feel the need to hold onto whatever privilege/power they have.

And here’s cl’s comment which offers some degree of a concrete example that falls in line with Izumi Bayani’s thoughts.

And here’s some highly embarrassing self-exposure – Like I mentioned over in another thread, the easiest way for me to relate to this perception of Black Women “not being seen as delicate, feminine, worthy of care, affection and protection” is to compare it with how lower class women are perceived in developing countries. This is not to say that the two are the same. And in NO WAY am I saying that it’s all about class coz I don’t believe that myself. But I’m hoping this is relevant to understanding the dynamics touched on in this OP.

There was a time when I worked as a live-in volunteer at a school with many lower class people from the villages. It was a bible school, but so many of the students had so much baggage in their hearts that ‘teaching bible principles’ in a classroom setting was well nigh impossible. Broken homes, aftermath of a civil war, sexual assault, you name it. My parents were there too and they ended up counseling many of these young people. Many a tears were shed during counseling sessions and prayer sessions as their pain left. Young women who were initially depressing to be with appeared beautiful after they unloaded their baggage.

So what’s my point? Well, when I first arrived there, they appeared like a mass devoid of individuality and humanity. And just forget about femininity. As ridiculous as this sounds (and I’m sorry if I shock you or turn you off with the ugly truth about the condition of my heart), somewhere along the way I thought, “Wow, they have feelings too. They have feelings which can get hurt too. I had no idea.” They had become individuals, persons – persons with complex feelings, personality, and experiences.

I wonder if the way black women are perceived by others is somewhat similar to the dynamics at work in this story? That perhaps the only emotions they are seen as capable of is anger and hate. But pain and joy is reserved for the more human others.

So are we going back to talk about how to treat Black women like human beings now?

Can we? I wouldn't mind getting the ball rolling, but I have to admit that the problem is more than systemic, if there's such a thing, that I think no matter what I say it will be like a raindrop in the desert. But I'm dying to see some comments about it.

So let's kick it off with white-dominated media being a good place to stop perpetuating the Jezebel/Sapphire/Mammy stereotypes. And I think it takes WP to tell other WP that this isn't ok. The FCC stops overly offensive, unacceptable things from making it to your television. But no one has successfully researched or challenged what allowing shows with storylines that offer up racist stereotypes does to BW (Virginiaca on SNL, Shanaynay on Martin and all of the "overweight, sassy, wise BW" characters that appear in the movies that white people watch that *don't* have Halle Berry in them). Yeah, I know TV and movies aren't everything - that's what the media would like for you to think. That their impact is insignificant, but let's face it - most of America's population watches TV as though it's an accurate reflection of reality. Most of the "norm" they experience doesn't actually have anything to do with reality at all. Their societal norms are given to them with little to no interaction with actual people in society. They're being fed it from birth through mass entertainment sources. Hell, even Hannah Montana's lone black character is a Mammy type. She's Hannah's caregiver and is, of course, wise, sassy and slightly overweight.

There's even a CFCC which protects what children see on TV, movies, while they ride the bus to school, what they hear on children's radio, and what ads can't appear on their report cards. This group takes the time to draw attention and outrage to the smallest detail. And you know what? They get shit done about it.

So what's to stop someone from forming a group that protects BW? Specifically BW. What stops it is nothing - what prevents its success, however, is that WP don't give enough of a shit about PoC (unless they can help them "for pennies a day"). And it DOES take WP using their White Privilege to make it legit to other WP. Most WP feel no connection whatsoever to PoC, so to ask them to come to the aid of BW in particular would do nothing except cause the "But what about ALL women?!" comments going and then the idea is squashed before it's begun. But if it were to actually get off the ground, a case would have to be made about EVERYthing. Everything. Every oppressive lyric, every ad that supports it, every black female character challenged.

I'm in agreement that there's no one but BW and a few smatterings of other people who actually want to do something about the wellbeings of BW. And that is the most hopeless sounding part of it all.

On an individual basis - How do we start treating BW like human beings? Accept and acknowledge that we all do this to BW. After that it's pretty easy to figure out how to treat human beings if you're a human being yourself. The problem, though, is the acknowledgment and acceptance part. Nothing gets done when people don't believe there's a problem.

White woman here. I'm going to add some things I'm personally doing to try and change the way I view black women. And I'm offering this up for other white people so that more of us might feel comfortable jumping in on this topic.

But first-- let me preface this by saying that in addition to growing up white in the white supremacist culture of the US, I can remember that my grandmother in particular, who cared for me everyday while my parents worked, modeled racist attitudes for me-- yelling at me when I was really young four- or five-years-old for talking to or playing with the black kids who lived across the street. She taught me that I was "too good" for them and that they were not to be viewed by me as people in the same way that I was a person... These were memories I didn't think much about until I started doing some reading about racism, whiteness, etc. as a college student several years ago.

I guess I offer this background because when I talk about my racism, I'm talking about my way of viewing other people that was taught to me purposefully in my childhood by important individuals-- and it found reinforcement in the white culture all around me and in its media (Bugs Bunny anyone?). As RVCBard and Witchsistah have pointed out here, white people do not view black women as human. I know what that means because I grew up in that and it grew in me. I don't know if I can ever be free, but I need to do this work because this is not right. I have hurt too many people because of this shit. And it is shit. It's my shit. Though I was taught it as a child, I'm not a child anymore.

So here are things I'm doing to continually teach myself that what my family and my society has taught me is dead wrong-- these here are specifically in relation to black women, so that I can become more able to see and value the humanity of any individual black woman.

I'm reading books by black women whose thoughts and ideas I admire and often find challenging. I found bell hooks to be a really good writer/thinker to start with. Octavia Butler's works are also among my favorites.

I'm choosing a books by black women when it's my turn to pick the books for the book group a white friend of mine has organized (Nalo Hopkinson's Brown Girl in the Ring, Octavia Butler's Parable of the Sower after that). My book group is four white women and we're one of those groups that really does talk about the book.

I'm bringing up race and whiteness in every conversation about every book we've read so far-- and because the other women are not yet engaging with me very deeply about race in contemporary US fiction by white people, I'm always rethinking the sort of questions I bring to the table...

I have had a close friendship with a black woman and though we're in different life circumstances now, I make an effort to keep in touch with her every month at least so I can listen to her and talk to her still. We had a lot of things in common when we met, being in therapy and struggling with family issues being one of those things. So it's good to be able to stay in touch with a friend who's been there through some of the harder times. It's good to reflect back on them sometimes...

I ask myself sometimes-- do I make more of an effort to stay in touch with her because she is black than I would if she were a close white friend from the past? I've had my share of close friendships-- and by close I mean the person you'd call first if you were in a crisis, the person you share your soul with, the person you answer the phone for at 3 in the morning and talk to them for 2 hours if they're crying. Most of these deep friendships have been with white women, only a couple with women of color, and just this one black woman. I'm not sure I know the complicated answer to that question about why I make this effort to keep in touch with her more than with other past friendships, but it feels important to me to think about. I might say there's a lot of yes with a little bit of not quite mixed in.

I think my racism is involved in this. I think I have become a better human being because I've been open to her individual perspective as the black woman she is. I don't want to lose that. That might sound noble to somebody, probably somebody white, but I don't like that. And I'm not yet adept enough to understand the role my racism plays in these thoughts and feelings and in making her different in this way-- but I have an awareness that my racism is involved.

I'm also writing about my racism-- past and present-- examples I see in my own life... It's not writing I share. It's for me. It's my therapy. I don't know how much it can change, but at least I see more now. I hope to continue seeing more as I continue working with racism and me.

Here's what I'm not doing that I should be doing:

Writing letters to advertisers and newspapers explaining why I find a particular ad/article/word-choice/etc relating to black women or a black woman to be offense and wrong-headed. I do this sometimes when an item pisses me off for its sexism. It only makes sense to become committed to doing the same for racism.

Talking to my mom. My racist, racist mom. I'm scared to talk to her about any of my real beliefs because of her anger and her white woman's tears. She's hurting people, too. She's my family. I need to start a conversation with her about whiteness, our whiteness, and what it means. I'm scared. Will I do it? I'd like to say yes, but as of right now, no.

Okay, I'm writing so much and I have a sense I'm just going on and on. So I'm going to stop.

I need to start a conversation with her about whiteness, our whiteness, and what it means. I'm scared. Will I do it? I'd like to say yes, but as of right now, no.

Okay, I'm writing so much and I have a sense I'm just going on and on. So I'm going to stop.

Seems to me that you're doing a LOT to fight against a widespread tendency to treat black women like they're less than human; thank you for these suggestions (and also thanks to others here for theirs -- dare I say, I think this convo is going better now?).

I'd also like to say, as a quick aside, that talking critically about whiteness to other white people, as you do, strikes me as a sort of indirect (but ultimately effective) way to counteract the common white tendency to treat every sort of POC as less than human.

[In fact, you've just provided another viable swpd topic: "start conversations with family members about whiteness." Again, I'm not inviting people to address that in this thread, but you raise great questions -- how do people do that? what happens when they do? what are some effective ways to do it? Kinsley, you seem like a writer with a lot to say, so I sincerely invite you to write an swpd post on issues and strategies you've already outlined here, if you're at all inclined. The more I write on this blog, the less I want to write on this blog, in the interests of stepping aside as a white man who's on a sort of center stage here (and who's also probably wearing, for many white readers especially, a sort of unconscious mantle of unearned authority, which Western societies unfairly and uncritically bestow upon white men), so that other sorts of people can speak critically, and often more insightfully, about the ways of white folks from their different social positions.]

(Holy shit, if ever an SWPD comment thread illustrated the exact point of a post...)

@RVCBard - I think your comments here are insightful and spot-on. I often think this, but have hesitated to comment it for various reasons (which I won't go into unless you're interested, b/c I understand from previous discussions that seems like making excuses?) I'm sorry that translated into a lack of support for you and I will try to do better in future. Not just with you, either.

@soul - Thank you so much for writing that. Sometimes survival is an achievement, sadly.

@Witchsistah - If you do decide to take a break, I hope it helps replenish you.

@ all the BW commenting here - Ladies, I would completely understand if you up and left SWPD en masse after this thread. I hope you don't. I think we've made it pretty obvious that we WP are incapable of learning when we refuse to listen to you.

Holy shit, if ever an SWPD comment thread illustrated the exact point of a post...

You're telling me. And nobody seems privy to that, nor do they seem willing to examine why they did such, other than to offer apologies for moments far after the damage has been done instead of rectifying the behavior right now.

Oy, it figures that I would have a pounding headache and an inability to string two thoughts together on the very day (yesterday)that it was really important for WP to show up and talk.

For the record, I hear how the silence of WP doesn't feel so good here but I think it's important to say that silence doesn't necessarily mean that nothing is happening. Case in point: ever since I read the following on Sunday, it has been with my (albeit befuddled) self:

"Let's flip the script a little bit. Why does it often seem that people cannot engage with Black women unless we affirm the Mammy or Sapphire stereotype?

Why is it so difficult to make the leap from acknowledging the idea that we are real human beings to acknowledging the reality that we are real human beings? Why does it seem that Black women only become human when we silently endure suffering of a depth and magnitude that made even Job curse God? Why must Black women be Christlike before we can be treated as merely human?

And even more than the why is how."

When I first read that, I thought "well, that is just so deep and powerful--but at the same time completely confounding--that I'm going to have to think about for, like, a hundred years before I can formulate any kind of useful response."

Because it's not as if I do any of that (i.e. think about black women as somehow not human0 CONSCIOUSLY. And it's not as if I actually feel like--in my conscious brain--that I even THINK this way. But I suspect I do, deep down in the ingrained insidious parts of my brain I'm not even sure how to access. So I am thinking hard about those parts and how to access them. And, occasionally, when I do--I feel like the neurons are literally picking themselves up, walking around, and reconfiguring themselves.

I have more to say about what I quoted from RVC Bard above,including an effort to get more at those darn parts of my brain. But I have a meeting right now. And most importantly, I wanted to get across that--at least in my case--it would be a mistake to think that silence means that all of your wisdom and hard work and willingness to talk and come back here time and time again despite not getting the response you would like--well, I would hate for you to think it was all for naught. I personally feel like you are effecting profound change.

Make it simple for white people? In my experience, talking to family members about whiteness/white racism/white supremacy is anything but simple. . . And I'm NOT saying "do that instead of talking to black women and other POC." And I put that part of my comment in brackets to further suggest that I think those kinds of conversations should be part of White Work too, but NOT replacements for engaging with POC. (And here I am again, explaining too much in that common white way about what I meant by what I said . . . this White Work is awkward!)

Listen to us NOW!

"Us" being "black women"? I am listening . . . that's what the whole post above is about -- some insights, and thus new habits (and broken old ones) that I gained BECAUSE I listened.

And in that regard, since you're back, would you mind elaborating also, please, on what you meant by "teflon"? I could guess, and I gathered enough about "adamantium" to make the post about that metaphor, but not quite the "teflon" part. . .

I missed the conversation that sparked this post (the holidays an all that), but I am intimately familiar with the whole black women aren't people trope. And I gotta say, the fact that the underlying question in these comments is "How do we treat BW as human?" makes me want to go in a corner and cry and give up. I don't know how to begin to answer that question without screaming.

And I put that part of my comment in brackets to further suggest that I think those kinds of conversations should be part of White Work too, but NOT replacements for engaging with POC.

That's what you meant, but what actually happened?

In my experience, talking to family members about whiteness/white racism/white supremacy is anything but simple.

And you're taking that sentence out of context. Again, you are doing the very thing you say you're not doing - focusing on "helping" White people instead of focusing on how to treat Black women better.

If that's what you want, fine. However, don't be surprised when myself and other Black women decide that they don't want to help White people along the middle of the road, mostly because that means we get run over.

Again, you are doing the very thing you say you're not doing - focusing on "helping" White people instead of focusing on how to treat Black women better.

Right. I'd appreciate, as always, help with seeing what I'm missing here, but I don't think it's about merely helping white people, but rather, helping/encouraging them do something better, which is, treat black women and other POC better. My point was to encourage white people who want to do the kind of White Work we're talking about here to spend some of that time, to make some of that Work about, talking to white people about white supremacy -- which isn't easy at all for most white people to do well. Part of the "home-Work" should be, to bring this back on topic, talking back to white relatives when they spew racist crap about black people, including black women. Again, that's often not easy, and posts here that recommend strategies for doing it, let alone doing it well, strike me as helpful. I welcome your explanation of how they wouldn't be, if that's what you're saying here.

I think what I'm trying to say does go back to what I'm reading as the central question here -- how could white folks do better at treating black women like actual human beings? One answer, among many -- speak up to white relatives about their whitened habits, including their unconscious preconceptions of black women.

I think your comment (waaaaaaay back at the beginning) was pretty relevant to this discussion and it got completely ignored when the Epic Derailment happened. So I just wanted to say hey and let you know that I hear you and identify. Like, a lot. I've been through the same situations as you have -- particularly being called "intimidating" and thinking, It's because I'm tall! or It's because I don't smile enough!, and being completely ignored by men (particularly by white men) in favor of my white friends.

Because that happens a lot -- a black woman being dismissed as a woman and as a person altogether when there are white women around. And I've made all the available excuses there are: well, maybe she's easier for them to identify with/want to take care of because she's shorter/skinnier/sweeter/funnier/whatever. But even when she's just as tall, just as curvy, just as straightforward, just as sarcastic, there's always something. I have wasted a lot of time wondering, But what the fuck is it? because attributing someone else's desirability to her whiteness felt like a cop-out -- if someone doesn't find me attractive it just means I'm not their type, right? Well, yes. But often it means black isn't their type.

Part of the reason it felt like a cop-out is because nobody would talk about this with me. My WIWL girlfriends of course never bring up race in conversation, and the times I've said something like, "Well, white guys don't really find me/black women attractive," I've been dismissed with extra helpings of incredulity. Of course there are exceptions to this rule. And of course, it's a little more complicated than this. I think, generally speaking, it's perfectly okay for white men to want to have sex with black women. But when it comes to the question of dateability and relationships, black women don't even show up on most white men's radar.

So here's a suggestion for the white people on this thread who are open to some education: be conscious. Notice black women and what you think about us -- or, rather, ESPECIALLY how easily you dismiss us. I mean this in terms of everyday consideration, not just in terms of sexuality, which is what I ended up talking about. (Sorry, I didn't mean for that to be my whole point.)

And you don't need to come back here and talk about how appalled you are at your white thought patterns, because I see a lot of that going on, and frankly I find that sort of thing derailing. My RL conversations with white friends often turn into "OMG I used to be so racist!" and I'm meant to congratulate them on how far they've come. Honestly, if you think you deserve a ticker-tape parade from black people just for learning to think of us as human beings, you've got some more learning left to do.

I work with a black woman who's good and thorough at what she does. She's a good problem solver. We work for different departments that work very closely with each other in the structure of the organization. We have similar positions in the structure. We're admin. employees. She's full time and I'm "just" a temp. Since I'm a newer employee, I have problems I can't always solve on my own. I can't always go to my bosses to ask the answers. I work with a lot of the other admin. workers in her department, including her, to figure out how to proceed.

If she gives me a good idea and then my bosses in my department praise me for it, I tell them that she figured it out not me. I thank her and relay the praise. I do that for all the admin. workers. I try to anyway. I'm not perfect. I'm just really working on not taking credit for stuff that wasn't mine. It's not that hard. It's pretty basic.

Also, I talk to her. I listen to her. Office stuff. Basic human conversations. I remember stuff she says. I ask follow up questions. Is this too basic to mention? I thought so, but maybe not?

@ thesciencegirl,"And I gotta say, the fact that the underlying question in these comments is "How do we treat BW as human?" makes me want to go in a corner and cry and give up."

I'm sorry. I don't know if it helps at all to say that I think another underlying belief in these comments is that black women ARE human and DESERVE to be treated as such. But holding that belief alone--it seems--doesn't help WP actually do so. Which is completely fucked up in itself. Does it help at all to rephrase it as "how do WP interrupt their own fucked-up-ness?"

A lot of my silence is because I'd rather say nothing than say the wrong thing and I don't trust myself enough to be able to say the right thing in a situation like this. I've already insulted Witchsistah once with my clumsy attempt at a compliment, and I'd like to avoid a repeat performance.

I'm still in kind of the "Holy crap, that's right!" phase of things, when I look squarely at how the stereotype of the sassy black woman also restricts the black woman's ability to be vulnerable, to have hurt feelings, to just want to fucking cry.

All this talk about White Woman's Tears and hardly a thought about Black Woman's Tears.

Damn if Korinova didn't get me. Denial IS a helluva drug. I think it was the pointing out how no one offers help in life; how often I've been obviously in need but overlooked (by FRIENDS). I'm realizing my manager takes a "you could've done it" tone with me he doesn't take with my co-workers when I need help and it has contributed to why I rarely do ask for help from him.

Even her anecdote. One of my closest and oldest friends is a petite spitfire woman. She's also white and she DOES NOT want your help, but man if people won't bend over backwards to do it. Even our close friends. When I want something to happen (say, for example, when we were out and I was ready to go but the guys were taking too long) I send her to ask because they'll jump for her. Me? It takes a few more seconds, because they don't want to look like I'm demanding and they're giving in.

Dammit denial sucks.

Having said that -- I need to go on record saying this (and erasing most of everything else I originally typed): there is nothing about the point of this blog, anti-racist efforts or (quite frankly) being black in this country that feels good... but reading smart and well-thought out comments that add almost nothing to the discourse but more "why don't you already know how to do this" is disheartening.

It's ridiculous that some white people need help seeing me, a black woman, as human -- but the truth is some of them do and even though inside I'm shaking my head I gotta give props to people who ask for pointers and then I need to answer the question or STFU about it.

Did anyone ELSE notice Karinova's comment? It seems like the only comments that got noticed were RVCBard's, honeybrown's, Witchsistah's macon's (the ones that were in reply to the aforementioned) and Willow's. If this isn't EXACTLY what this post was about I don't know what is. I know there's a major effort to avoid derailment on this blog, but sometimes, letting the comments flow only further proves the point of the blog for any doubters. A good way to have heeded what the point of the post was getting at (for any WP still wanting to know) would've been to address Karinova's comment. Her comment had me damn-near tears (probably because I get it on a sincerly personal level, but still) but it was the more angry posts that got responses.

This ish is icky and dirty. It just is. You will say things people don't like, and you'll apologize and you'll learn or you'll stand your ground. But nobody can say they're really anti-racist but spend all their time trying to stay clean.

For anyone who may have addressed Karinova, excuse me. I got to a certain point and had to stop with reading the comments; I'll come back for the rest.

There were some comments I read earlier touching on black women in the media and "Mammy" stereotypes. I tried skimming back to find them, but I don't have the time to reread every single comment in detail. Sorry.

I wanted to say -- I agree that the "Mammy" stereotype is awful and obnoxious and one we should be over by now. But it's also very obvious, and an easy example for WIWL writers to avoid. What I think is more dangerous is the more insidious representation of black women I see a lot of the time.

Okay. The first thing I ever read that got me thinking critically about the representation of black women in the media was Nyota Uhura is not a white girl, which may be of interest to any of you who have seen Star Trek. I think it's interesting even if you haven't. But. The main thing I get from that essay is this:

Even if the black woman in question is not Mammy, or sassy, or a drug addict, or a hooker, there is more you have to watch out for. We are expected to be content with a depiction of the professional black woman as a character somehow above sexuality and other human considerations -- but denying a black woman love and companionship as a way to make sure she's taken seriously IS NOT WINNING.

My own observations about black women on TV and in movies are these: either her blackness is all we see (as in the character of Mercedes in Glee), or her blackness is completely ignored (as in the character of Cam in Bones). If I had my druthers, I'd pick the second category any day, because at least that way I can avoid mockable stereotypes. But I don't see why I should settle.

Just... Notice how black women are depicted. Generally speaking, the black women who play professionals, who we're meant to take seriously, are held to very white standards of beauty -- slender bodies, small breasts and butts, light eye colors, straight hair (and the expensive type of straight hair, not the more textured relaxer most of us are familiar with). I know you've probably just started a list of exceptions to this in your head, but I'm not talking about exceptions. I'm talking about what I see all the time.

The message I get from what I see all the time is that if a black woman wants to be respected, she needs to put aside as much blackness as she can. And if she is respected, she probably won't be loved. And if she is loved, it's in a secondary or tertiary storyline, and she's probably been conveniently paired with another PoC.

Yes, that is of course the defining quality of Teflon. I'll continue working on just how it is that black women are thought to resemble Ronald Reagan. Thank you.

You also wrote,

Listen to us NOW! Talk to us NOW!

Are you finding recent comments, like Kinsley's, that report specific methods of treating black women more like humans helpful? Do other black women here appreciate this kind of white-person comment?

If not, and if you'd still prefer a different tack, please do let us know . . .

As for a lot of what black women themselves are saying here, I for one really appreciate it overall -- on its own, the testimony (if that's the right word for a lot of it) itself is helping me see black women as "human." I'm listening. And I hope this space feels like a safe space.

I think, generally speaking, it's perfectly okay for white men to want to have sex with black women. But when it comes to the question of dateability and relationships, black women don't even show up on most white men's radar...

Notice black women and what you think about us -- or, rather, ESPECIALLY how easily you dismiss us. I mean this in terms of everyday consideration, not just in terms of sexuality, which is what I ended up talking about.

I know what you mean not just because I've been through it an infinite amount of times as a BW, but because I also end up talking about how warped and twisted BW's sexuality has been viewed in America. I think we end up there because so much about how women are treated in our society is directly related to our perceived sexuality and sexual attractiveness.

In a patriarchal, misogynistic world a woman's worth is directly related to how attractive men find her. If you're not deemed attractive then you are basically dead, socially dead, but not only to men sexually oriented towards women, but to everyone in that society since folks in a patriarchal society follow men's lead. So this ends up being about way more than just how many dates a woman can pull (which is how it's often dismissed).

I've often thought about how much money I could have saved if I had been deemed feminine enough for men to want to help out for free. Moving expenses, cab fare, nights out, other entertainment. How many times my safety was left in jeopardy because well, who'd want to attack/rape a manlike BW? How many times I got shitty treatment from medical professionals because my Negress life wasn't worth much to them? How many times have I gotten insensitive treatment when it came to my feminine or reproductive health because I was seen as either asexual (who'd want to fuck dark-skinned, Negro-featured, nappy-headed me) or a hypersexual nigger slut who was too busy juggling dick to take any heed of her reproductive health.

One of the few times I was actually treated as if I had a viable femininity was when I got a breast lumpectomy at the age of 27. The doctor recommended a certain surgeon to handle the relatively simple operation so that my breast would not be so scarred up and disfigured as I was a young, single woman and he didn't want that to happen to me. That surprised me at the time (and has made a definite impression on me) because the White, male doctor actually acknowledged that I was a woman, feminine and may actually care enough about her appearance to not want a misshapen breast if it could be avoided. I remember the surgeon assuring me that she'd be as non-invasive as possible. I remember the post-surgery wound check and removal of the stitches when said doc paid close attention to how the scar was healing and how my breast looked. To this day, the scarring is minimal, and you'd never really know I'd had surgery on that breast unless I pointed it out to you.

I mention that incident because it was one of the very few times in my life where my femininity was not only recognized but protected. The way I was usually treated, I expected these medical pros to just think it was a bad, nigger tit and maybe just chop the whole thing off or cut out so much tissue as to leave my breast disfigured because, well, I was Black. Who was I going to screw but other Black folk and everyone knows we just rut really. We never make love or anything as delicate and caring as that. Or would it even matter if my boob was disfigured because who'd want my Black ass anyway?

I tell that story because it illustrates some of the perks that come with assumed femininity that WW seem to want to shy away from (even as they eat up all the bennies with a spoon) and that BW are denied. It's about more than guys thinking you're cute or getting a date for Saturday night.

I'll continue working on just how it is that black women are thought to resemble Ronald Reagan. Thank you.

I felt this bit of sarcasm to be inappropriate and trivializing, since clearly the concept of "nothing sticks to it" means something different in this case -- you can say or do anything you like to black women, it won't leave a mark -- than re: Ronald Reagan. In fact, this is an excellent example of treating-black-women-as-made-of-Teflon in action. Thanks for demonstrating for the class.

Are you finding recent comments, like Kinsley's, that report specific methods of treating black women more like humans helpful? Do other black women here appreciate this kind of white-person comment?

I find that genre of comment to be self-congratulatory, even if that's not how they're meant. And I also find it a little creepy, but the creep factor isn't in the comments themselves so much as in the idea that white people actually need concrete examples like this.

I mean, does advice to acknowledge a teammate's work and to give credit where it's due help you out? Would you really not have done that sort of thing otherwise? Does advice that specific help you to apply that kind of behavior to other, dissimilar situations? If your answer to any of those questions is yes, then on one hand, let them continue if it helps you get your anti-racist on.

On the other hand, comments like that seem to favor going through the motions over actually changing your thinking -- treating the symptom rather than the disease.

I'm angry at myself for this comment of my own, because I feel like offering criticism without a corresponding suggestion is pretty useless.

I'll reiterate what I said earlier -- take a step back and notice. Other people have told you to listen. You're doing a lot of earnest talking on this thread. Maybe it's because the original post, an attempt you made to do something nice, has been hit with a lot of criticism. But you're also doing a lot of derailing of your own, despite what may be excellent intentions. I'm seeing a lot of "How can I learn if you won't teach me?" going on.

I'll reiterate what I said earlier -- take a step back and notice. Other people have told you to listen. You're doing a lot of earnest talking on this thread.

Okay, thank you. I'll try to weigh that with RVCBard's "Talk to us NOW!"

clearly the concept of "nothing sticks to it" means something different in this case -- you can say or do anything you like to black women, it won't leave a mark -- than re: Ronald Reagan.

It does? Isn't that also why Reagan was called the Teflon president? (thus my comparison) I was asking for more information about what that metaphor means for black women -- what is it that doesn't (or supposedly doesn't) stick to them? I can guess, but I think that would be presumptuous from a white guy. . .

I wasn't being sarcastic in my Ronald Reagan/Teflon comment, and I apologize that it came across that way. (I also recognize that explaining much about what I meant would be derailment, since effects matter, not intentions.)

I'd like to step away from the conversation about how to educate white people, and share some personal experience surrounding the original topic of black women being separated from their humanity and femininity (as karinova did way upthread). I often feel that the way in which men treat me falls into two camps: 1. invisible/not female (most often from white men) or 2. purely a sex object (most often from men of color, though not exclusively). In the eyes of some white men, it is clear that I am not only not the ideal women, but perhaps not a woman at all. I feel this most acutely in my very white neighborhood. I feel it when I am walking down my street and am pushed off the sidewalk because others refuse to share their space with me. I feel it as eyes pass over me and through me and rest on every other woman in the room. I feel it when my neighbors ignore me, and when my friends talk about hot women in front of me. I feel that they may see me as a person, but never as a woman. I am not a potential girlfriend, date, or mate. My friends and classmates treat me differently than the average Joe on the street, I think because they have the opportunity to know me as a person. In this way we can become friends, and they can even flirt with me. But they will never go beyond that. They will be astonished to know that their flirtations could incite hope in me. I should be asexual, after all. I am a woman of color, in many of their eyes, a black woman [fyi, I identify as biracial]. And well, when have black women ever been the prize?

Abuse, harsh treatment, neglect, emotional manipulation - I'm pretty sure that's the sort of thing that supposedly doesn't stick to black women. As in, white people act like they don't have feelings and won't really be affected by those things.

I'm giving your assertion that you really don't get it the benefit of the doubt, and explaining the Teflon thing for you.

Ronald Reagan was called the Teflon president because no matter what dirty stuff he got himself into, he got himself out with nary a scratch. I.e., he was a bad guy but nobody could prove it.

What I understood RVCBard to mean when she said people treat black women as if they're coated in Teflon is this: no cruel comments should bother us, no dismissive behavior should hurt our feelings, no discrimination should ruffle our feathers, do whatever you want to us without worrying that you'll scratch our surface, because we are at the same time earthy-simple-strong and Only Black Women (so why worry about how we feel?).

And for the record, I think both RVCBard and I can be right at the same time. Either talk to us, being conscious of tactics like derailment, and knowing that you may not be treated like an honored guest at a dinner party; or take a step back and chill out until you're not taking our frustration at a thousand other WIWLs who have gone before you personally.

And let's say this IS just about BW being butthurt that we're not seen as desirable. It's a concern that many Americans have if we are to go by personal ads both online and in newspapers and by companies like Chemistry.com, Eharmony and Match.com. Like my netnick indicates, I'm a witch. And the spells most requested of me (which I don't do due to ethical reasons)? Love spells. Look in books on "witchcraft" or commercial spell books, or look online for spells, you'll find that love spells lead the pack followed by health and wealth spells jockeying for second and third place. This is even more dramatic when you factor in less specific love spells (those not aimed at a specific object of affection) to make one look more attractive to potential partners and glamor spells. Love and sex are on everyone's mind and is everyone's concern, not just BW.

I find it very interesting that folks seem to have no problem telling BW to accept lives without love, romantic and platonic while they are not about to accept such life conditions, much less on our behalf and in solidarity with us. And these same folks often belittle us in our complaints making us feel petty for even having such concerns ("What do you care if [list type here] men don't find BW attractive? Why would you want those guys anyway?"). Meanwhile, I don't see them turning down opportunities to couple or spending Saturday nights with their BW friends when they could be out on the town.

"I find that genre of comment to be self-congratulatory, even if that's not how they're meant."

I can see that. I'd like to think I'm not trying to be self-congratulatory, but that's not true. I'm just being self-congratulatory in some convoluted way.

The thought that comes next to me is, if the only things I can think to contribute are self-congratulatory, I should be silent. That doesn't feel right either. That's a false dichotomy.

The right thing could be as you, Witchsistah, and A.Smith have pointed out-- to engage with what Korinova has said, for the specific example-- and more generally, to engage with comments of this type.

Korinova's experience is really how this world works, though my culture denies it. I can recognize that. I want to be part of changing that. Korinova, I'm sorry you have been treated in the way you described.

Witchsistah, I'm sorry that your experience stood out for being the exception. The act of a medical professional to value the body of a patient should not be an exception. I see that it is for black women.

Zara, you said "Just... Notice how black women are depicted." I think I am noticing, but I don't even trust that. I think my mind is poison.

A.Smith, you said "This ish is icky and dirty. It just is. You will say things people don't like, and you'll apologize and you'll learn or you'll stand your ground. But nobody can say they're really anti-racist but spend all their time trying to stay clean." I see what you mean. I know I'm guilty of trying to stay clean.

I don't have anything useful to add, but I wanted to speak to what I identify with in your comment, which is everything.

They will be astonished to know that their flirtations could incite hope in me.

God, yes. That's the worst, and something I've run into ever since flirting became part of my interactions with boys.

Little things that ought to add up to something -- that did when my white girlfriends experienced them -- always ended up not meaning anything when it came to me.

I saw the complete lack of consideration for my identity as a woman at dances and parties a lot. All of my white girl friends would get asked to dance and I was always left to do the asking on my own. The excuse I made to myself was, Well, if I mean it when I say I'm a feminist, I shouldn't expect boys to put forth all the effort anyway. My guy friends never turned me down, but they always seemed kind of baffled that a slow dance would be something I'd want.

I remember one time in particular -- this was a dance at a pre-college program the summer before my senior year in high school -- all of the girls got dressed up fancy fancy for a dance, and trust me when I tell you that I looked fabulous. I didn't know it, but I was already resigned to not being noticed, so much that I was completely taken aback when a white male friend gave me a sincere compliment on how I looked. It was the only compliment I got from a guy all night.

I've never talked about this with other black women before. It's a pretty welcome revelation that I'm not alone in my experiences. Well, I mean, it sucks that this is systemic and therefore happening to other people. But I'm glad we can have empathy for each other.

And Zara, if you were talking about my comment here--"And you don't need to come back here and talk about how appalled you are at your white thought patterns, because I see a lot of that going on, and frankly I find that sort of thing derailing."--I apologize.

I find it very interesting that folks seem to have no problem telling BW to accept lives without love, romantic and platonic while they are not about to accept such life conditions, much less on our behalf and in solidarity with us.

I find it very interesting that folks seem to have no problem telling BW to accept lives without love, romantic and platonic while they are not about to accept such life conditions, much less on our behalf and in solidarity with us.

Thank you for the apology. Honestly I don't know if I had a comment of yours in mind when I said that, though I'm glad my words may have given you something to think about.

I was speaking to every white person who posts here. I imagine those of you who post reflections on stuff you've done wrong do it with the intention of bringing awareness to other WP, or to cement your mistakes in your minds so you won't do the same thing twice.

But. As a black woman reading these comments? (Of course I don't speak for all WoC, just myself.) I will tell you that I know all the things you've done because they've been done to me. And when I have these conversations with WP in real life, there's always a pause after the confession, with a hopeful look at me -- this is where I am meant to step in and assure the WP that it's okay now and they're forgiven.

What this does is make me responsible for the guilt a WP feels for their racist behavior. Why, in any universe, should that be my burden to bear? And it doesn't end there (aside from the added problem of taking the attention off of me, other PoC and the effects of racism on us, and refocusing it on the WP in question), because if I give any response more positive than the simplest acknowledgment, that WP usually decides that means that since a PoC is happy with them, they're not racist anymore.

I see white confessionals on anti-racist blogs everywhere. And always, my feeling is, "Okay. And now what?"

There was an article in Racialicious regarding how BW are not seen as real women. A BW lamented that oftentimes her male colleagues would talk in front of her as if they were in a group made up solely of men. It was as if her womanness wasn't even acknowledged (more than likely the issue), had disappeared or SHE had disappeared (another likely probability). In the comments section, other BW expressed that the same thing often happened to them to the point of the usually White men around them pointing out women they thought were attractive and forgetting that there was an actual woman standing right there listening to all of this. Of course, the women they thought attractive looked nothing like the BW whose sexuality they were ignoring. And these men often pointed out the non-Black traits (think compulsive swooning over blue-eyed blondes) as being what made those women attractive.

The thing is, these men would not have spoken like that in front of a woman whose womanhood they recognized. In fact, as soon as one such woman would approach, the conversation would change to a much more gender-neutral one.

I have been fighting this gender erasure my whole life like most other BW. My fight has been much more deliberate and obvious since I've entered my current relationship. For example, I actively question people when they assume my femininity doesn't count or is non-existent ("What about me makes you think I can move a sofa all by myself?"). I've gone to family events with my husband (who is White) and told him that I was INVITED as a GUEST not the hired help, and that I was NOT there to tote dat barge and lift dat bail. I did not get up, shower, dress up in nice clothes (often nicer than the other guests), do my hair and makeup and wore my nice jewelry to work as a stevedore, short-order cook, waitress or maid because everyone expects BW to just work any and all the damn time.

I've cut off said men when they discussed women in front of me with "Why would I care about what so and so looks like. I'm straight. I like MEN, now that guy over there..." and go on and on about how sexy he is because he is NOT like my current company. I've rebuffed WW who would flirt with me in order to ask a favor of me as if I were a man ("Um, you do know I'm a woman and STRAIGHT, right? So why are you flirting with me?"). I've let people know in my LJ and Facebook that describing a beautiful woman with only the descriptors "she has blond hair and blue eyes" is telling me nothing more than she's White and the describer believes in Aryan supremacy at least when it comes to looks and that I've seen plenty of fugg-ass blue-eyed blondes.

That's been said and expressed to me many times in my life. Folks treating my concern with my attractiveness as a BW and my lack of love life as though such a concern were petty and unimportant. Meanwhile, they're not declaring celibacy in solidarity with my ass.

There was an article in Racialicious regarding how BW are not seen as real women. A BW lamented that oftentimes her male colleagues would talk in front of her as if they were in a group made up solely of men.

Zara, it was good to read the "Nyota Uhura is not a white girl" article you linked to above. White feminists like me need to embrace the fact that whiteness is not the voice and face of feminism. Our struggles with sexuality are not the same as black women's struggles. It's not okay to think we're talking about women's representation in the media when we're really just talking about white women's representation.

And when I have these conversations with WP in real life, there's always a pause after the confession, with a hopeful look at me -- this is where I am meant to step in and assure the WP that it's okay now and they're forgiven....

I see white confessionals on anti-racist blogs everywhere. And always, my feeling is, "Okay. And now what?"

I think I'm the main person in this thread who's been doing the confessional thing. I don't know why I thought that would be appropriate on this website, since I don't think it's appropriate in "real" life. And it helps me to know you can find it everywhere on the internet. I'll stop in the future. That sort of writing does have it's use for me personally reflecting on my own self, but it doesn't have to happen here. Like Julia, I also apologize. Not just to you, to everyone.

And in the comments section of that article you have folks trivializing what she was saying acting like she's just a vain woman wanting all men to fall at her feet. Talk about working overtime to NOT get it.

And in the comments section of that article you have folks trivializing what she was saying acting like she's just a vain woman wanting all men to fall at her feet. Talk about working overtime to NOT get it.

And talk about completely ignoring her when she explained her thought process and how getting guys' attention just for kicks was totally not the point!

Working overtime, no kidding.

The comments in reply to that post particularly infuriate me because in reading that article I felt so validated and like I might not be completely self-absorbed and/or nuts, you know? And then I get to the comments and there's every single rationalization I've ever come up with on my own, just waiting to say, "Nope! You imagined it! Clearly what's going on is your own unattractiveness/high expectations/self-centeredness." Lovely.

That's been said and expressed to me many times in my life. Folks treating my concern with my attractiveness as a BW and my lack of love life as though such a concern were petty and unimportant. Meanwhile, they're not declaring celibacy in solidarity with my ass.

Get it now?

Got it completely. I'm sort of boggled and horrified that people would say that sort of thing to your face, but I don't doubt your word on it for a second.

At what point does colorism and white racism play into the humanity of black women? I know the anger of my fellow sisters; however, I must admit that I don't often deal directly with the stereotypical behavior placed upon by other BW. I don't fit the "Mammy" or "Sapphire" role as prescribed by white racism. I've never been ignored by white males. So, I'm not sure the "Jezebel" stereotype would be handed to me. Are these stereotypes more heavy-handed with darker sisters?

I want to clear something up. Any type of white confessional comment I've ever done has never been for a pat on the back from PoC. In fact, I make posts like that FOR white people, especially the ones who don't comment. I do it because WP need to own up to their actions. They need to see that not everyone who does racist things is "racist" in the ways they perceive racism. I do it with the hope that it will give them a jumping off point when they ask themselves "that" question - you know - "what am I supposed to do about it?" or "how do I start?" I'm NOT congratulating myself because that would imply that I've done something special and there's nothing special about figuring out how not to make racist comments or oppress people. Furthermore, it implies that I've completed something and I certainly have not. This isn't some little project I'm working on myself with where someone has to hold my hand and feed me cookies along the way as I "progress". Reducing my racism has proven to be the opposite of linear, as I suspect it is for everyone. Two steps forward and one backward. Three off to the sides in every direction. Being satisfied with myself as I learn what I learn is the goal to be met for me. Don't take this the wrong way but I really don't care if anyone else appreciates it or not. I'm not insecure in the way I feel about what I'm doing in the least.

Witchsistah said: That's been said and expressed to me many times in my life. Folks treating my concern with my attractiveness as a BW and my lack of love life as though such a concern were petty and unimportant. Meanwhile, they're not declaring celibacy in solidarity with my ass.

Sorry for cursing, but fucking hell. I know you know this, but that's fucking unacceptable for people to do that to you. I would be losing my shit left right and centre, so kudos to you on not having murdered anyone yet.

At what point does colorism and white racism play into the humanity of black women? I know the anger of my fellow sisters; however, I must admit that I don't often deal directly with the stereotypical behavior placed upon by other BW. I don't fit the "Mammy" or "Sapphire" role as prescribed by white racism. I've never been ignored by white males. So, I'm not sure the "Jezebel" stereotype would be handed to me. Are these stereotypes more heavy-handed with darker sisters?

You know what? When talking about women of color, colorism is going to always come up LOL. I would have to agree that in my opinion some darker skin Black women are affected by these stereotypes more. Although I have never been demeaned for being dark skin, I have seen darker complexion Black women have these stereotypes thrown at them left and right. Especially if they are heavy set. If you look at the TV all three of the stereotypes are usually played by dark skin Black women.

I haven't been a commenter for long, my first comment here was as a result of something I said on KIT's blog.... but I'm going to take this opp to respond directly to you:

When you said this Are you finding recent comments, like Kinsley's, that report specific methods of treating black women more like humans helpful? Do other black women here appreciate this kind of white-person comment?

If I was being polite, I'd say 'oh sure'.If I was being honest and truthful.. I'd say nah..

the reason for this is simple.These are things that humans do. I know that unlearning racism is hard and I know that it benefits us all to do so..

But seriously, I expect to be treated as a human being, I expect for people not to claim credit for my work, I expect to engage with my colleagues, I expect to have some 'esoteric' discussions with them, I expect it because it is human nature. This is also probably one of the reasons I get hurt and frustrated a lot because other people don't think that I should have that

Now, when a white person shows me 'the good/decent' side of them, I acknowledge it like I would acknowledge it with a black person.

Kinsley was treating her/his colleague the way she would treat any other human being. Decently!.

Whilst I would encourage her to keep treating people decently and with an open mind, what I found disturbing was the fact that it was obvious that she was doing something which soo many other people in the company found abnormal.

When you or anyone else asks how to treat black women with humanity , I have to ask you:How do you treat yourself with humanity?How do you treat white women with humanity?

Do you understand what the implication of your question is?

To my ears it sounds like.. black women are this unique group who we have to find special ways to look at in order to treat them as humans.I'm not saying that is what you intended, but that's what it sounds like.

How do you teach someone to treat you like a person?.

Are we that strange, that different, that special that you have to specifically ask us to teach you how to treat us like human beings?.

Really?

Because in a nut shell that is exactly what that question implies.

*These are my thoughts and opinions alone and may differ from those of other women

Secondly, as a black woman you lose your shit left, right and centre at your peril.You better know when and where and usually that is nowhere in a 'white sphere'.

The subsequent fallout can prove not only mentally exhausting and disastrous, but don't be surprised when the po-po are called and you get done for harrassment or incitement or whatever the hell it is.And believe me, I as a black woman do not want to be anywhere in the vicinity of a jail cell with jailers, especially white mail jailers.

That is one of the scariest situations I can ever imagine a black woman being in. In a place where not only is she devoid of agency but she also has nowhere to escape to and no protection.

As a black woman, you can be deemed to be too aggressively complaining about someone physically assaulting you.

To be a victim of aggression is so unbelievable to some officers that they will simply arrest the whole bunch of you rather than acknowledge your vulnerability.

You learn and you learn very quickly, that sometimes.. even when you are right, you are still in the wrong.

To my ears it sounds like.. black women are this unique group who we have to find special ways to look at in order to treat them as humans.I'm not saying that is what you intended, but that's what it sounds like.

Absolutely! and I do agree with this statement. I don't think any Black woman on here is asking for people to give them special treatment. I just want to be treated and given the same resepect as everyone else. When you ask questions like "how do you treat Black women with some humanity" its like Black women are some animals that need some special treatment because they are some unique creatures. I don't think Macon D meant that but I have to agree that it does sound like that. Treat people how you want to be treated and that is with respect.

Thank you for your honest responses, soul and Lady Dani Mo. (btw, I want to be sure not to take credit or whatever for that question; if I remember right, it was first asked here by RVCBard, who's since repeated it, and I also quote her asking it in the post above.)

Yes, I think I do understand what the implication of that question is, and I think I might have some understanding of just how crushing the question could be.

I think I can also see why black women's responses to those kinds of white statements here that I asked about -- in which they describe counter-racism efforts towards black women -- can be tiresome, dismaying, even ridiculous in a way, and so on. But in this mixed-race space, if they're not TOO bothersome or hurtful to black women or other POC to read, then I'd like to encourage them, for reasons similar to Victoria's above -- I think they can serve as models for other white people, and even before that, as wake-up calls. I imagine some white readers have seen other whites fail to do these basic things, and have even been alerted by some comments in this thread to situations in the past in which they themselves failed to do these things. Failed, that is (maybe without even realizing it), to treat a black woman like an equal human being. I have some hope that discussions like this one could change some of the white habits of some of the white readers here.

I'm guessing your comment was in response either to my suggestion that WP lay off the confessionals, or to my comment about how WPs' confessionals affect me. If I'm wrong in this assumption, of course feel free to ignore this. If I'm right, though, this is what I have to say:

What I did first (towards the end of this comment, trying to get back on track after some masterful derailment) was suggest we lay off the WP confessionals, after a whole lot of WP asked for some education.

What I did later (in this comment) was explain first that my suggestion wasn't meant for any WP in particular, and second why I, as a black woman, find white confessionals hard to deal with.

What you did (in this comment) was explain why what I said didn't apply to you, and why your intentions as a well-intentioned white person mean more than my experience of your actions as a black woman.

What you did is called derailment. I request that you think about this.

I knew I had read the sentiment of your comments a few times after my 1st post and after scrolling back up, yes it appears my comment was in some way a response to those, but also I genuinely felt misread. It wasn't meant to be a derailment, but I will definitely give it more thought. After I reread the comment, it actually sounds to me like a center-stage thing and I apologize for that. I honestly don't know how to respond here when I feel totally misrepresented by blanket comments that are made. Much of the time I don't say anything. I don't want to continue to take this offtopic. If you are up for discussing this further with me please feel free to leave your response in a comment on my blog. If not, it's ok - I will still think more about your comment. Thanks for pointing it out to me.

That's the annoying thing. How can one ask to treat fellow humans as humane as possible? It creeps me out. Do WP honestly have to be taught empathy or other feelings? Are they the one group that is exclusive to treating people humanely?

Do WP honestly have to be taught empathy or other feelings? Are they the one group that is exclusive to treating people humanely?

I don't think so. It's an ongoing history of white supremacy that devalues black women; it seeps into more than just white people, so it causes more than just white people to treat black women inhumanely. (Actually, I thought that's what you were getting at upthread, when you wrote, "White racism affects black women and their relationships. Deal.") I thought racism/white supremacy was the target here, not white people.

Colorism definitely DOES play into it. It has in how I've been treated compared to how lighter, Whiter-looking BW have been treated around me. And yes, Whites DO engage in colorism (favoring those PoC, including WoC, including BW who look more like them) even as they deny they do or that they treat/see all Blacks as niggers equally. I've seen it and been a victim of it.

Case in point, my husband is White. Most folks wonder what he's doing with me. Couldn't he get a WW? What's wrong with him that he couldn't get one? I've overheard WW commenting on our relationship that they could understand my husband being with an Asian or EVEN a Latina, but with a Buh-LACK WOMAN!?! And I'm not even a LIGHT-SKINNED one at that! And boy, he must have wanted to go DEEP into the jungle since he's with ME! Somehow him being with a lowly Negress was the ultimate slap in their faces! "Oh God! Now even BLACK WOMEN are getting GOOD WM!" *clutches pearls*

But it's not JUST WW who do this vis a vis BW. I've had AW, Latinas, mixed-race women look at us with utter incredulity, whisper behind their hands, hell even follow me into the damn bathroom as if to find out my secret! Like I was going to take out a special potion called SnagAWhiteDude and drink it or spritz it all over me.

I have a question that may be dumb, but I'll ask it anyway. I remember one of the first movies with an all-Black cast that I've seen, which was about 10 years ago or so (ex-communist country, got cable later, bla bla bla) - sorry I can't remember the title - was this comedy about two young couples. One of the women was a "wild" girl, very sexually liberated, the other was a "good" girl. Which drove her boyfriend crazy, because she hadn't put out after around 3(!) weeks since they had started dating. It seemed ridiculous to me that a guy would expect that after only 3 weeks, and act like she was being cruel by making him wait that long. And then she finally caves, he goes through all these funny things trying to find a condom, etc.Then I thought it was just American culture where you have to have sex right away, but reading this thread made me wonder if there is a difference between White and Black women in that respect. My general curiosity about the topic of waiting more until you have sex is very personal, so, if the question is irrelevant to others, just ignore it. Are US Black women expected to put out sooner/with less opposition than other races of women? Would an American man of any color be less willing to wait around until she trusts him enough to sleep with him? Or is it just a general thing?

You'd be surprised at what folks say in front of and directly TO BW. It's that "BW can't be hurt" stereotype at work again. I've had folks expect me to wholeheartedly embrace the Eurocentric beauty standard as objective truth even as it negates me (they do this everytime they only give "blue-eyed, natural blonde" as a description of a beautiful WW, as if no other description of her features is necessary). And I guess I'm supposed to agree with that negation, that I'm automatically hideous because I'm good and Black-looking, not White and definitely not Aryan-featured. The few times I've pointed out what those folks were doing, I got an awkward as hell response and a forced compliment on my looks. But they could NOT tell me what about me made me attractive (yeah, like I believed them). They had NO vocabulary to describe a BW's looks favorably unless they resembled non-Black features.

Now, when I hear "Oh my gawd, she's so gorgeous! She's got blond hair and blue eyes!" and that's it, I speak up and let them know I need a lot more than that because I've seen some fugged-out blue-eyed blonds unless they believe in Aryan supremacy and have negated ALL other features as being desirable. Or I'll ask if they expect me to indirectly call myself ugly because I'm not a blue-eyed blond.

In my experience not only are BW assumed to put out sooner but to be more okay with no-strings, casual, degrading, rougher sex. I've had men, Black and White, I've dated start talking about me having their baby. At first, I thought it was a joke but when these guys continued to bring it up, I had to revise my assumptions. I'd then ask them if requesting I have their child constituted a marriage proposal or that I didn't hear a marriage proposal and where was the engagement ring? I then explained the only way I'd be having anyone's kid would be within the confines of a marriage. I'd get this deer-in-headlights look from them. See, as a BW, I was supposed to be FINE with giving birth to various men's children without a hint of commitment from them.

I've had non-BM try to chat me up by telling me, "Oh, we can fuck, but we can't date!" as if I'd be so happy to get non-Black dick in me, I'd settle for being some guy's "Black experience" and only used for sex.

Whenever I objected to being treated like a sexual outhouse, I'd get these incredulous looks as if I were the one out of line! Who did I think I was? I was some lowly Negress they were gonna bless with their dick! How dare I think I was actually BETTER than that! I broke up with a guy who treated me like his dirty little secret and he got such an attitude with me like I was the one in the wrong.

Like I said, you'd be surprised what folks say to BW and think we shouldn't mind.

How can one ask to treat fellow humans as humane as possible? It creeps me out.

I know, right? Inquiring as to "how to combat discrimination against BW" is one thing, but fielding suggestions on how to treat them as people? It's gobsmacking.

Do WP honestly have to be taught empathy or other feelings? Are they the one group that is exclusive to treating people humanely?

I'll probably get blasted for this one, but hell if it doesn't sure seem like that SOMETIMES. And sure, one can argue that this lack of empathy and denial of humanity could easily be applied to the oppressor/ruling class in any given context, but the traditions and history that are specific to white supremacy in this day and age have coalesced into what I can only describe as soullessness.

I don't think so. It's an ongoing history of white supremacy that devalues black women; it seeps into more than just white people, so it causes more than just white people to treat black women inhumanely. (Actually, I thought that's what you were getting at upthread, when you wrote, "White racism affects black women and their relationships. Deal.") I thought racism/white supremacy was the target here, not white people.

Oh Macon, go soak your presently disingenuous head. HB1976 obviously wrote WP as shorthand for the ruling class, not individuals. And hey I thought you were against playing Oppression Olympics?

@WitchsistahWow. That is disgusting. I would probably be surprised*, but then I haven't lived in America all my life.

It doesn't make sense to me personally to only find one set of racial features attractive, but I know that I am in the minority on that opinion (in this country I mean). It blows my mind when people say "I'm not racist, I just don't find [insert other race here] attractive."

I guess we are expected to be "fast", despite evidence on the contrary, ahem "Girls Gone Wild", "Playboy", etc. showing WW more "easy".

Witchsistah,

I'm not shocked. I've had WW feel free to tell me that the WM I dated did so because I was "black, but not black". Or, they would explain that if they could be black, they'd want to be me. (I must have missed the memo that lighter-skinned blacks don't ride on the racism experience boat at Disney World or something). Hell, even at my senior prom, a "friend" explained to me that since I'm half white, I should act like it, rather than actively show my pissed-off demeanor at someone else.

"It blows my mind when people say "I'm not racist, I just don't find [insert other race here] attractive."

Yes,I've always found that skeevy. As a Black woman I've heard it many times. The worst part is the way people are perfectly comfortable saying this in front of and to Black women. It's said in such a "Oh, that hurts your feelings? Well who gives a shit" way.

I've heard of people approaching women who looked mixed with fervor only to have that ardency die out once they find out the woman was Black (as in has two Black parents) or part-Black. So it's not even about having certain FEATURES. Because even with the revelation, the woman in question still has the same features that attracted the potential suitor in the first place. So why should that attraction change one he finds out she's Black?

Wow. That sucks, if they feel like your body is a sure thing because of your race. Makes you wonder how those mothers (and fathers too) must have raised their sons (that apropos the common courtesy thing too). I am familiar with men flipping out if a woman whom they perceive as unattractive rejects them, but it's amazing to me that simply being Black would trigger that. I can't even picture the "make me a baby" conversation, seems like something out of a bad novel. Makes me think of a quote from a Romanian-French philosopher, Emil Cioran: "I would go out more, if slapping people were socially acceptable".Don't know if that's of any interest to anyone, but the American media did a very good job of cleaning up the US image abroad and presenting it as a racial paradise. Not even Obama's election triggered any accurate analysis about race relations. If it weren't for the Internet, all foreigners would think that the US is like in "Saved By The Bell", everybody's happy and everybody's friends. Well, at least were I come from. All this stuff that I read here is shocking.

"I have been fighting this gender erasure my whole life like most other BW..."

I have nothing really to add, but to say that it is very frustrating and there were times when I had to tell myself that there is nothing wrong with me. Since I moved to L.A. from NYC, I made the comment to my roommate, who is white, that I get the feeling that the men aren't attracted to black women. She looked at me like I was crazy and I got the usual "The men are just shallow". I would have taken it at just that, but I feel that it goes beyond the superficial. When I went to a restaurant/bar opening with her and another friend, both white, we were all dressed to impress--most of the men completely ignored me like I wasn't there. I got this not only from white men, but non-white men as well.

Also, I'm told quite too often that I have "high standards" when looking for a guy. I see nothing wrong in asking that a potential mate be educated, ambitious, intelligent, and well-cultured. I believe myself to be those things, so I would want someone who is on my level. It's not like I'm saying that they HAVE to be '6' "3", with a six-pack, drive a sportscar,etc.

I had this discussion with a friend if she felt that BW are constantly told to "lower" our standards when it comes to men. It almost seems like society is saying that BW are not allowed to have the best things in life.

It's folks saying that BW are lowly to begin with so we really don't have the RIGHT to ask for anything more. It's like you get 4 points taken off your "score" automatically for being Black and female. So to them a Black female 10 is really a 6 so why are BW 10s demanding fellow 10s? Who do they think they are?

Yes, we're very good at projecting that image. But I've also found from my friends from Spain and France that they also lay claim to a "racist-free" society and that everything is fine. They told me that the only difference is that in the U.S. people address the race issue. Just in my experience, I've found that I'm comfortably able to discuss the race issue with my white friends from Europe. I can't really explain why that is.

What's funny to me is that pre-Obama, the conversation was racism doesn't exist and it's all in the imagination of POC.

And now, "post-racial" America LOL at that one, when someone brings up an incident of racism, they're told to stop playing the "race card" or that they have to tiptoe around POC not to offend. Now, I'm thinking, in your mind if racism doesn't exist, then why cry stop playing the "race card." Whenever I hear the tiptoe argument, it infuriates me because in my experience I felt that I'm expected to go out of my way to make some white people feel comfortable--i.e. acting like everything is well in America and that I'm to remain silent and just take it when someone makes a derogatory statement relating to my background.

I didn't mean that Euro countries are racism-free, not by far. Just that to many Europeans who never had the chance to read about these things online, it seems that the US is racism-free. And that whenever racist incidents do occur, they are dealt with promptly and efficiently, because the system works so well. I would suspect that many immigrants of color that go to the US are partly fooled by this image, that they can just be and prosper, with no other problems. As for BW, I would say that I have seen more diverse representations on European TV channels, in terms of hair, skin tone and body, you don't have to look like light-skinned-relaxed-hair clones to be considered attractive. When I traveled in a place with more Black people (mine has very, very few) - mainly Athens, Venice, and France, most local Black women I've seen had natural hair, or braided. As far as I've noticed, it is not considered unkempt, or politically aggressive to wear it like that, and Black TV stars don't seem to go out of their way to look more White. On the other hand, American BW tourists looked very different, as style goes, much like the actresses on American TV. I'm sure each European country has its own set of stereotypes and prejudices about Black people, but it also seemed visible to me that natural Black beauty is more appreciated. A very dark-skinned BW with natural hair was voted one of the 5 most beautiful French actresses of all time (Aissa Maiga). From what I read and see, this is very unlikely in the US.Oh well, don't mean to make this into a Europe vs. US thing, I thought maybe it's good to know/confirm that this twisted perception of Black beauty is not universal.

Not sure if my comment is too late, being that there are already 163, but I thought I'd add in my two cents. Someone's earlier comment about being pushed off of sidewalks and ignored/invisible really struck me. As a BW, I've recently had this conversation with my mother. I'm single, attractive, and petite (not that it should matter) and in grad school. I tend to dress well because I like to be presentable and I love fashion. I cannot tell you how often I will be walking in a public place, the mall, school, street, alone and a will have to move to the side of the isle for others. I always feel like I am always the one moving to the side in order not to bump into another person or group, while the other person/people walk completely straight as if I'm not even there. My mom often tells me I have blinders on, that I should be more aware of others around me and smile more, so much it often gets on my nerves. But when I told her about my experience with moving around people she told me she had experienced it as well. Reading the comments addressing this above made me realize that people do see me as invisible as a BW. No matter how petite, well dressed, or "non-threatening" I am, as a BW, many people will still see me as an object, or not see me at all. I can't tell you the number of times that I've had "friends" tell me how white I am because I like pink, listen to certain music, dress well, or speak well. It's like no matter what you accomplish in your life, the stereotype of the angry/ignorant/loud/sexual/asexual black woman will follow you around forever like a ball and chain. This is why I think we as intelligent BW get tired of patronizing comments of be nice, smile, don't get angry, lower your standards, "I feel your pain and I know it's not fair but, but..." comments because it's just so draining.We are people, we want love, we want independence, too! What everyone else wants! We are human!

@ebony..unfortunately, in terms of racism I believe europe and europeans are simply no different and are steeped so deep in denial it is unrealistic.

and it always hurts when Black americans do not realise that they get an 'easier ride' with them, especially since many white europeans parade their friendship with you as proof of their 'un-racism'.

Look, Europeans treat black Africans mainly like scum. Many countries have effectively erased whatever slave history they have to the point where many europeans believe chattel slavery only occurred in the US. Many will deny that their countries had any issues with racism or slavery whatsoever.

Over here, you assimilate or die. you do not talk about european racism or even your rights or you are a trouble maker.

You are treated differently because you are American and it can be spotted a mile away.As an American who travels you are different, you are considered educated, intelligent, a different class of black, and most importantly an 'elevated black' because you are different from the 'dirty Africans'.

They consider your American-ness a compliment, a commonality and your African-ness a slight flaw which you can't help but have obviously grown out of.You are what they call a 'different kind of black' - the 'good black', the more 'exotic' black.

re: representation on tv This is a minefield but unfortunately it is no different from the US. It just seems that way. Light skinned blacks are still the 'good blacks' they are the blacks 'du jour'. But the closeness of most European countries to the continent means they cannot keep out the influence of the many diff. African 'flavours' out.

It really hurts, when black american women do not realise that they are being singled out specifically for preferential treatment. It pretty much seems to nullify the horrendous racist experience I undergo on a daily basis.

Where yes, people will step on me, push me, shout, talk past me, treat me like a child, insult me and act surprised that I am upset because well it didn't even register that I was human.Where at work, they constantly try to undermine me, exclude me, humiliate me, de-skill me consider me uppity for being knowledgable and actually tell me so.

I could go on, but do excuse me I'm a lil upset and cannot seem to string what I am trying to say together effectively.

Just wanted to identify. I've gotten the "You're so white"/"You're not like other black people"/"Haha, you're like an Oreo" comments a lot. Usually, they're intended as compliments. I've also gotten the "You're so articulate" genre of compliment quite a lot. That's always delivered in a tone of polite surprise.

Being told to "smile more" is possibly one of the most obnoxious bits of advice I've ever come across.

@ Ebony --

I've been told my standards are too high, as well, usually by white girlfriends. Often this is accompanied by the observation that I'm "kind of intimidating", which was discussed waaaaaaay upthread, first by korinova. Then come the suggestions that I smile more, not be so serious, flirt more -- i.e., dumb myself down and use smaller words.

@soulI can't say I've seen all the French channels there are, just the ones that were accessible to me. Especially TV5, Mezzo, and Arte seemed pretty diverse to me. I have no idea how that reflects in the real life of the Black people who live there, or in other Euro countries, and I definitely didn't mean to imply that they have it easier. Just that I found the TV landscape rather different from the US.

What you've written exactly describes how I was treated by European Whites while I was studying in Europe 20 years ago. When I'd talk about how they treated Arabs and Africans I was basically asked why I cared since I wasn't either. Or when I asked about how I'd be treated as a BW in Europe I'd get "Oh, you'd be fine! It's the ARABS we hate!" as if that made it all cool.

Now, the French seemed to want cookies and head for not calling me the n-word. I informed them that was not considered special anymore, that times had changed since the 1920s and 1940s when well-known Black American ex-pats set up residence there escaping the ferocious racism of America at that time.

Not to belabour the point but of course the TV landscape is different from the US, France is diff from the US and sells a lot of its content to Francophone African countries.

And like I said above it's racist practises are also slightly different. i mean this is france where black folk are languishing in the 'suburbs' (ghettos) and can be effectively 'contained' if there is any trouble.

This is france, where Jean Marie Le Pen was elected as their leader. this is france where govt ministers have no problem being racist on the world stage, where job adverts can be coded to agencies as 'blue, blanc, rouge' (meaning pure french no foreigners).

But my response was really to ebony, because I wanted to address her as uniqueness to other europeans as a black american.

Of all the mind-numbing vitriol I've seen directed against BW, few compares to that which I've seen coming from white feminists, specifically white American third-wave feminists. And though this shit gets slung willy-nilly at any woman of color on a whim, "WOC" automatically translates to "black" in their minds due to the deeply ingrained white/black binary that is particularly central to White Supremacy.

Scratch that - mind-numbing vitriol mingled with insufferably moronic dismissal, e.g. being accused of "derailing" when attempting to shed light on the plight of WOC and then ordered to admit who REALLY suffers most under the white privileged patriarchy: "young, pretty women!"

Because being black and "young and pretty" are mutually exclusive, natch.

And these were self-identified radical feminists here.

Oh, and apparently being a brunette white woman is somehow equivalent to being black - because dear god, white brunettes have to compete with white blondes.

Reading the comments here is starting to look like a full time job. But it sure is worth it. (Though the comment I wrote below after reading half the comments might seem a little out of date now that I’ve finally finished reading an hour later)

Well, this is interesting. Being a non-BW, I think I’m experiencing what it’s like to be white on this blog. It’s actually really hard to hear what BW are really saying. I’m listening, and I can hear it, but it takes a lot more effort than usual for me to hear the full scope of emotions and pain behind the words that the BW here are saying. It was as though my ears were hearing, but my heart was deaf. That’s how much listening it took. I mention this in the hopes that the white (and other non-BW) readers on this blog can understand how much listening is required before we can actually hear what’s being said. I was listening and I was hearing, but the full impact didn’t hit me until I read Witchsistah’s account of her surgery. It was like having an invisible window open up, and that’s when I felt, ” Aaaaah, I see it now,” and I really could hear what the other BW are trying to convey through the individual stories they’ve shared here. Sort of like that saying about having your heart of stone being replaced by a heart of flesh. And as long as all this listening is an intellectual exercise, then we’ve got a heart of stone.

It is easy to intellectually understand what BW are saying, but to have the emotions and pain behind it hit you is a completely different thing. I think this is why Zara is saying that it’s creepy that people actually need concrete examples on what to do, and that it seems self-congratulatory. ‘Doing’ helps, but it’s nowhere near enough. It’s about actually ‘seeing’ the pain, and ‘seeing’ the humanity, and ‘seeing’ the woman. Once we see, I think our actions will follow more naturally.

What this does is make me responsible for the guilt a WP feels for their racist behavior. …I see white confessionals on anti-racist blogs everywhere. And always, my feeling is, "Okay. And now what?"

Speaking of which, I was worried that my earlier comment might sound narcissistic, but I wasn’t sure. Now I think it probably does to an extent, and I think Zara’s comment about confessionals hits the nail on the head. I too feel uncomfortable with the confessionals whether done by others or myself, though it’s hard to say don’t do it, coz then it’s easy to think, how come nobody is listening, or saying anything on this blog? Plus, as Victoria pointed out, it might just help others understand. But at the same time, it does seem as though there’s a sense of discomfort about the person making the confessional due to their acute awareness of their own racism, but they’re trying not to be racist. It’s like it’s bordering on hypocrisy, but you’re (generic ‘you’ that includes me) trying not to be prejudiced, but you notice prejudice in yourself, and you try to fix it, and you don’t want to be self-congratulatory, but you feel guilty if you don’t confess it because you wonder if you’re trying to be silent about it because you want to hide that ugly part of yourself from others, so you confess it, but…oh my gosh it feels so uncomfortable because you now somehow you feel like a hypocrite/self-congratulatory/narcissistic for confessing.

Teflon – I was kinda confused about the analogy too, so thanks for explaining.

And what is WIWL? I’ve googled several times, but can’t find the right meaning (one that fits with how it’s used here).

Stopping by to cosign many of the recent comments about being told that I'm intimidating (Apparently too intimidating to date). As an educated WOC, I am constantly being told that men are afraid of me and that I should smile more (the next time a strange man tells me to smile, he's getting an earful), and that the sum of who I am is apparently so threatening (though it would be praised in a white male). Frankly, it pisses me off. And whenever I lament being single, I'm told my standards are the problem, when all I'm really looking for is an equal.

I greatly debated even telling that story because I'm sick of BW basically having to parade our most innermost hurts and secrets just for others to BEGIN to get it. It's too much of a cost to us for too little a return. This is what burns so many BW out when it comes to race/gender issues. It's like RVCBard said, we shouldn't have to go through trials and tribulations that'd make Satan go, "Really, is all THAT necessary?" to God in the Book of Job in order for others to go, "Okay, we'll actually try to look at you now."

@honeybrown1976: Ditto. I felt extraordinary and profound relief when I discovered Womanism for myself, probably because it took me longer than most to realize just how limited their definition of "women" was and is. This of course is not to say that I don't completely respect and support WOC who self-identify as feminists.

It seems that the unique dehumanization of WOC by white women is often overlooked in antiracist debate. Logic dictates that we follow the "trickle down" model of oppression in which everything becomes solely attributed to white men, but the reality is more nuanced and less linear than that.

Actually figuring out how people really change -- not just model that change, not just talk about it or properly perform it -- is really hard. In some ways, it calls on the simplest things in the world - just listening to people, being open to what people actually have to say, looking honestly at whatever is going on, acting from a space of compassion and respect. But how do you get there, if talking about it (or writing about it in an essay) isn’t enough?

I have a sneaking suspicion that the shift that needs to happen is that They have to become Us. White people have to identify with (not identify as) people of color. Men have to identify as women. Heterosexuals have to identify with queer people. Cisgender people have to identify with (not as) transgender people. Able-bodied people have to become disabled, and so on.

When I say identify, I don't mean sympathize or empathize. And I certainly don't mean taking up the "noble" work of appropriating suffering. WRT the topic of this post, it means identifying with Black women because, in a way, you are a Black woman, regardless of what your skin or your genitalia look like. But I don't know exactly how that comes about, but generally some sort of lived experience is key.

The best example I can think of is Steve Martin in "The Jerk" going, "Sir, YOU ARE TALKING TO A NIGGER!!!" then proceeding to open a can of Whup Ass on a bunch of racists (who are, funnily enough, trying to prevent Black people from renting apartments in a building by keeping prices high). If you haven't seen it, stop reading this blog and go rent it right now.

I greatly debated even telling that story because I'm sick of BW basically having to parade our most innermost hurts and secrets just for others to BEGIN to get it.

This is why the whole "teach us how to treat human beings like human beings" skeeves the beejesus out of me. Not only does it propose some impossibly philosophic quandary, but it implicitly demands displays of raw, intimate experiences of and from the oppressed.

Note the irony that no demands are being made on the oppressors to demonstrate their humanity, even though the very fact of their oppression renders them far less humane than their victims.

Back at work. Sigh.1) Thanks to all who responded to my post way up top; I appreciate the empathy. (And it goes right back to all of you who shared too. Turns out we’re not crazy!) And I’m gratified to see that, poorly put as it all was, the message I was trying to express got across and resonated. I worried that it might come off as being mostly about sexual attention from WM, but it’s a whole-life thing— I was mainly thinking of little day-to-day “boosts” that people seem to give (without even noticing or wanting anything in return) that I feel rarely come my way. I struggle against the perception that this complaint is really all about baggin’ a white man. (ie: it all goes back to golddigging. I sweat this even internally. Which is weird, since, among other things, I “bagged” a WM years ago. And I’m the sugar momma.*) But I’m letting go of that worry. Truth is, those things are connected; it’s impossible to separate them and I don’t see why only WOC have to. Male sexual attention, I fear, is where a lot of that ultimately comes from. My roommate sometimes got jewelry and chocolates, yes, but every single day, she also got unromantic practical things, from bummed cigs to the benefit of the doubt. And not just from men. If you don’t get the one, you’re just not getting the others.

2) On white “sharing” posts in this thread. For now, I’m with Macon: the space is mixed, and I think it’s actually managing to go reasonably well (ie: still on-topic— encouragingly so). I offer that not to present the opinion itself, but only to present the fact of the opinion for the nonBW here. Specifically, the fact that it’s different from some that several BW commenters happen to have posted. I’m a little worried about those nuanced, personal-therefore-individual opinions being taken as one, and that one being taken as The One And Only BW Opinion on the matter. Just in case, I want to pre-empt that. This BW happens to be okay with it right now. I’ve even appreciated a few of them, for complex reasons. Even though I’ve had those other reactions before too, and definitely will again. I present that as something to Hear: we’re different. Individual, even. You may have thought the opinions given up above were all identical, but they’re not.

3) My favorite suggestion so far was actually an act: Lutsen’s. I’d like to double up on Imhotep’s kudos to hir, big time. I about fell out of my chair when I saw that someone was actually asking BWs what they thought, in a personal way— and not offering zir opinion on those thoughts! Especially when the answers were so likely to be not what a WP wants to hear. I shouldn't speak for anyone else, but: I want WP to do that!! Ask us what we think (as a person and as a black woman, all at once) and then listen. Then, if you want, we can talk about it.

Looking at the comments of this post, I can't help but feel a vague disappointment at the course of discussion. I can't put my finger on it, but there's something crucial that many of the people posting just aren't getting, related to the necessity of Black women putting our private pains on display and the predictable apologies that result.

I'm not shocked. I've had WW feel free to tell me that the WM I dated did so because I was "black, but not black". Or, they would explain that if they could be black, they'd want to be me. (I must have missed the memo that lighter-skinned blacks don't ride on the racism experience boat at Disney World or something). Hell, even at my senior prom, a "friend" explained to me that since I'm half white, I should act like it, rather than actively show my pissed-off demeanor at someone else.

Very interesting! This does seem like the experiences that some lighter complexion Black women go through. I've heard this before. It's racist and devisive amongest Black women. I remember my cousin who is light skin often get asked by White people "Are you mixed?" but when she states thst she is Black they ofetn sound disappointed. It's like damn is Blackness really human stain?

@ Ebony

Black women are often told that their standards are too high. It's annoying. Did anyone see how Dateline or some prime time news special had aired a piece on Black professional women and their obstacles of finding love? I'm like what the fuck? Was 2009 the year to exploit Black women? First if was Steve Harvey's book on Oprah show. Then it was "Good Hair" documentary by Chris Rock. Now there was a special on Black women's hard quest to finding love. It was always in Messence magazine of "Black women not finding love" articles. Now the mainstream media has caught on? WTF? I hate those articles on Black women not finding a man. It's self-defeatist, exploitative, racist, and sexist.

@ Commie

I don't read any thing or take White feminism very seriously. They did not come in defense of the Rutgers girls when Don Imus humiliated them by calling the "nappy headed hoes". This is a prime example of racialized sexism. White feminist do not stand up for women of color because it does not concern them nor benfit them. I remember when Tami from "What Tami Said" blog, posted a video of two White feminist on there. They briefly discussed women of color in feminism but they totally derailed and victimized themselves when they talked about the experiences of fighting racism in the civil righs movement. They were saying saying that the Black women did not allow them to fight with them. So not only did they bring up their concerns about women of color in feminism, they also sat around there and threw Black women under the bus by victmizing themselves and their fight againt racism. It was "oh the angry Black women did not allow us benveolently White liberal women to fight for them" blah blah blah blah. KD's comments reminded me too much of those women. That's why I said she take her ass back to jezebel where her victmizing self center stage behavior is acceptable.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the shift that needs to happen is that They have to become Us. White people have to identify with (not identify as) people of color. Men have to identify as women. Heterosexuals have to identify with queer people. Cisgender people have to identify with (not as) transgender people. Able-bodied people have to become disabled, and so on.

I appreciate your responses to my comment and I've always felt that black Americans are seen as exotic and unique abroad.

Some of my black friends who have gone overseas as well, get constantly ask "Are you a gospel singer?" or "Basketball player?". I once dated a French guy and he said that the French were not only racist towards Africans, but towards Black Americans--in the sense, that if they're a jazz musician, then they must be good because they're black. Neither makes it right. I once had this Israeli woman tell me that "I speak English so well." Maybe, I looked at it the wrong way, but I took it to mean I speak English so well for a black American. Again, I feel with these examples that some are trying to put us all in that box of how a BW is to act. And if we don't fit into those descriptions, then we're treated like something is wrong with us. How dare we not fit into the stereotypical roles.

Also, has anyone seen last year's Italian Vogue, The Black Issue? The editor of that magazine said she did it to show that BW are still under represented in the fashion world. Looking through the magazine, I couldn't help but notice that although most of the models had different skin tones, that they're features were almost similiar--small nose, etc. There was one photo of Alek Wek in some type of computer art, in which my mother's friend said she found it to be quite offensive. When I took a closer look, it looked like the figure was sticking her finger in-you-know-where. There was also one spread of Naomi Campbell lying half-naked around an animal print.

It's a shame that still in the 21st century, we're still viewed as nothing more than "Venus Hottentot (sp)?" Call me a cynic, but it'll take years or maybe never to undue the damage of viewing BW as just that.

The "Whose Ally" article mentions the phenomenon of trans "allies" who are really just in it for a spectacle-- to consume the bodies of transmen and transwomen. Do you think this has become a spectacle where those of us, like me, who are white, have become consumers of the bodies and pain of black women who have shared their stories?

Witchsistah, I'm not "playing dumb," and I'm not lying about reading through her comments and not being able to find it.

Not knowing exactly the comment you screened (that's for you to look at), is there a possibility that you actually didn't understand a point she made?

You know what I find funny? White folks almost always treat our "accusations" like being put on trial. So they protest too much about their innocence and demand proof instead of examining what the fuck actually went on. And, naturally, it's the POC who has to do that work for them to point it out instead of them looking at what's happening and asking their own questions of themselves and doing more on their own to figure it out.

Kinsley, that's an interesting way of putting it. I often feel that my experiences and my pain are being consumed by the white people I am trying to educate. It's a very high demand.

I actually encountered something similar this week in my "real" life as what is occurring in this thread. I received an email request from a white male administrator at my university to share my personal experiences with racism at our institution. I did it, but not without personal cost (reliving the experiences, second-guessing myself, wondering what the reception would be and whether I'd have to prove it was "really" racism, choosing my words very carefully so that the underlying racism of each event was clear, etc). The anecdotes I shared here in this comment thread were really to engage with other black women and empathize with each other, not to get meaningless apologies from white readers here. What do their apologies accomplish?

[…cont’d]Lunch!4) I got really excited by Victoria’s comment about the FCC. And then I got a bit bummed, because I suspect it’s the kind of thing that would get a lot of “hell yeahs,” but not much action. It’s not something for the individual to do. Still, I really want to call attention to what she said, because I don’t think people realize just how much those stereotypes matter. It’s really not an abstract “big-picture” thing; there’s a real connection, from the individual level right up to the institutional level. Gah, I can’t phrase this properly. If you have 30 seconds, look at this quick rundown of The PO’s Dilemma. You don’t even have to do the test, just look at the images and summary, and you’ll get the gist. I wish I knew of a project like this that’s focused on WOC, (anyone happen to know of any?) but for the sake of brevity, I hope you see my point re: BW. Think of how the Armed Negro stereotype leads to the POD, which results in deaths/prison/etc. Then think of BW stereotypes and what we’ve said here (and everywhere!) about how we’re treated.

For example, Witchsistah touched on indifferent medical professionals— I have a dozen stories on that subject. Doctors and nurses help; that's a cherished stereotype. Seen any ribbons about for lupus? Rubber bracelets for fibroids? I haven’t. Hell, do think of the police— I mentioned that I can’t even get directions from a cop, and I'm not really kidding: Once, when I was about 10; school let out early because of a HARDCORE blizzard. The snow was so bad, I actually got lost in the whiteout on the way home, which is nuts. I literally didn’t know where I was. I was crying, totally panicking: it was the middle of the day, so nobody’d know I wasn’t where I was supposed to be for HOURS. I’d been lost for over an hour. And then I saw a cruiser and was so fucking relieved! I ran over to tell him I was desperately lost. Per the movies, I knew I was saved: he’d drive me home. I didn't even question it.

What actually happened: he said something to the effect of "eh, you'll figure it out," rolled up his window, and drove away from a crying little girl, lost, in New York City, in the snow. You know what I did? No joke, I just laid down in the 10” of snow and waited to die. If someone found me, that’d be fine too. Who fucking cared either way. I prolly laid there for 40 minutes before just getting up and somehow finding my way home. Or how ‘bout the time Blondie and I threw a party, it got violently crashed, and she called the cops without telling me. She’s tripping on acid but when things get a little (OK, a lot) out of hand she felt no hesitation in calling the cops for help. I just about shit myself when she told me they were coming, and could I deal with them, since I was stone sober? I was so f’n pissed at her, and also terrified. Contrary to her ken, she and I were not interchangeable at the door! And whaddayaknow!, they got there and were so busy looking for some reason to "jack me up," they entirely forgot about the vandals they'd been called to control. They were much more interested in the drugs I was surely on, and any children (<— !!!!!) who might have been on the premises.And I have one cop story so f’n WRONG it’s prolly best I don’t share it. "Trigger warning," indeed. For me, every cop is about 19 walking triggers. I’m a BW, so they can hurt me in so. many. ways.

Is this making any sense?

_______*Which is a WHOLE ‘nother kettle of fish best saved for another time. Suffice it to say, I vacillated between “sugar momma” and “sugar mammy.” And understand, I love this man so hard.Let that one soak in.…Yeah. This shit gets complicated, y’all.

Yes, but there's something else going on too, and it's much uglier than that.

Has the search for cookies just become more elaborate? Are white people getting better at duping our own selves and thinking we're being helpful/good when in fact we are creating more elaborate constructs for being at the center, preserving white supremacy, etc?

As described here by Barbara Karens: http://www.colours.mahost.org/articles/karens.html

She asks "anti-racist" whites the question: "How are my actionsserving the white collective strategy to support the survival of theEuro-white system?"

Good, because I don't want cookies here. I've also learned to be glad to provide examples of whitened behavior, at least initially (as in, I hope I then stop doing that). I'm white, so I'm going to screw up, but I hope to learn from that, and I think I have. Not that I want cookies for that.

I guess I'm wondering if I'm performing a white supremacy that is neither blatant racism, nor colorblind white liberal racism, but is an uglier thing altogether because the depth of its deception, the sophistication of its lies.

And I'm definitely not looking for "yes" or "no" in answer to that as if it's a question. I'm just throwing it out there for general thinking over. Because I don't know the answer either... It just feels right to me that there is something ugly happening and I'm not sure what it is either.

Your story really touched me about you being a little Black girl lost in the snow and that driver just rolled up his window and left you there. That's scary for a young child to be lost in a snow blizzard to get home. I highly doubt if you were a blonde hair white girl lost and crying in the snow he would've told you that.

Witchsista,

Your story touched me as well. I think you should stay because you got alot people discussing the plight of Black woman and their fight against White patriarchal racism and sexism that has never really been discussed in the anti-racist blogosphere. I do agree with RVCBard that this discussion isn't going the best way it should. I want to hear more feeback from people other than Black women in discussion.

Like I said before, "You either see [black women] as human, or you don't. If you just focus on actions, you'll just be appeasing the scary angry black people... and that's an unhealthy dynamic."

Do you think you may be focused, without realizing it, on appeasing the scary angry black ladies? On saying what you have to say so perfectly that they don't come down on you for saying it? That in itself - not having been disagreed with yet - could serve as a cookie.

I feel like we do that a lot. Sometimes white people make POC the arbiters of anti-racist effectiveness and blindly follow whatever they say without bothering to think it through first. I think that's the origin of "my black friend says" - because obviously, if your black friend says it, it must be true, because blackness is the ultimate in anti-racism.

Leave it to a whiteboy to introduce himself with a two-part comment...

I've never been here before, although I link to this blog from my own. I'm Julian, whiteboy, gay, profeminist, class privileged, disabled and able-bodied, Ashkenazi Jewish, antiracist, pro-Indigenist, U.S.er, college educated, only English-speaking/reading. Tons of privilege and places of deep connection with anyone who is marginalised and invisibilised.

I read the whole of the first half of this thread and thought I would puke. I agree with the statement that white liberal racism is really aggravating and dressed up as caring, relative to white conservative racism, which is just fucked up and naked ugly.

This is sad. What's sad is how the humanity of the Black women here is made to be marginalised due to the needs, concerns, questions, and attention that white folks here repeatedly need validated, answered, and cared about.

For me, this is a grossly white male supremacist space. Right here. Right now. And, as in all such spaces, BW will fight to be heard, will speak truth, will disagree, will share in the hope--or without the hope--of being heard.

I'm kind of alarmed with and by Macon. Dude, wtf? Why didn't you respond to what Karinova wrote, way up there? (January 4, 2010 7:08 PM)

I'm with A.Smith on being stunned that she was just passed by. Blatantly ignored by the moderater. Blatantly disregarded for expressing deeply painful stuff. When a Black woman speaks in a forest of white trees, is there anyone there to hear her?

Macon, did you hear her? Why didn't you attend to what she was speaking about? I wanna know. But not here, not now.

And wtf with calling out a WoC on being ESSENTIALIST. That's fucked up. Beyond fucked up. And I don't wanna hear about your logic or anything else. Not here, not now.

For now, these are my concerns and feelings:

Karinova, I'm so sorry you experience all that. It's beyond sad. It's infuriating. But I am left feeling the pain of it. And it hurts. To have to hide truths that are too painful to bear, and then bear them and not be seen. This outrages me. I send you a hug. I'm glad you've experienced some level of support here. I didn't see any through the first half of this thread and was getting increasingly pissed off. I skipped down through the second half, especially whenever a white person was talking. But there's plenty by all the contributors I missed in the second half. So that's just true.

Witchsistah, I support you taking care of yourself and a preliminary question, given that this is a space you are in, is: what do you need here right now? Today? Are you feeling heard, seen? Because with Macon calling you "essentialist", I'm about ready to go off on him in some ugly ways. I think what he said was outrageous, but never mind that. How are you feeling about what he said?

For me the problem here is that there's a whiteboy in charge whose liberalism is fucking things up repeatedly. That's my call on it.

So I recommend those of us who are white asking anyone more or less being quiet for a spell.

To the Black women in particular: How are you? Every one who is still in this conversation. How are you? What do you need here that you haven't yet gotten? What sort of discussion would be helpful to you?

And then, Macon, don't get in the way of it happening, just facilitate it happening, okay? As Pearl Cleage says, being in a posture of listening, not defensiveness. Stop defending anything you've done that is fucked up. Or even explaining it.

And, for Lorde's sake, check yourself when you're about to tell a WoC that her PoV is ESSENTIALIST. Dude. Really.

There's a HUGE difference between a white man creating a space that is for white people to learn about what we do that's racist, and creating a space that is WoC-welcoming, respectful, and comfortable. For me, those two priorities are VERY far apart.

I came here, smelled the coffee, and realised the milk's gone sour. Time for a new pot. That's what I'm thinking and feeling.

You do make sense. Thank you. I think for a white woman who derives pleasure out of pleasing authority figures-- it can be really easy to swap out one authority figure (white men) for another ("scary angry black ladies").

Do you think you may be focused, without realizing it, on appeasing the scary angry black ladies? On saying what you have to say so perfectly that they don't come down on you for saying it? That in itself - not having been disagreed with yet - could serve as a cookie.

I feel like we do that a lot. Sometimes white people make POC the arbiters of anti-racist effectiveness and blindly follow whatever they say without bothering to think it through first.

and

I think for a white woman who derives pleasure out of pleasing authority figures-- it can be really easy to swap out one authority figure (white men) for another ("scary angry black ladies").

...

...

...Okay. If you two Whiteys insist on this insufferable Center Stage martyr act after a thread of 190 PLUS comments containing numerous, harrowing revelations of the struggles black women endure DAILY, then all we are left with is just, "what the bloody hellfire fuck at the both of you."

I have also sensed an ugliness about this thread, even though there has been some very thoughtful discussion. I'm trying to get a sense of what it is, and I'm not sure how to articulate it...

Is perhaps the problem that the thread has largely focused on black women sharing very painful stories - is the result, for the white readers, to further perpetuate a stereotype? Is their pain serving, not to humanise them, but to further demean them in our eyes?

RVCBard linked in this thread to a scene from 'Anne&Me', which touches on this with respect to the movie Precious and to The Color Purple.

I definitely do not want to dismiss the stories that have appeared here, or the courage shown by karinova, Witchsistah, TheScienceGirl and others for sharing them. And I don't know what to say apart from expressing how appalled I am at the horrible treatment they have received. Which, I am.

But being appalled doesn't mean changing anything.

From Kinsley's link:"How are my actions serving the white collective strategy to support the survival of the Euro-white system?"

I think this thread is not really challenging the Euro-white system. It seems to have fallen into a kind of trap in which white people are looking with sympathy (pity) at the miserable black women.

How do we challenge the system? Why don't we challenge the system? How, specifically, am I part of the system?

And finally, with respect to black women, and how feminism has failed them... Do white women, perhaps, see black women as competition we don't want? Is that why we have not fought for their rights in the same way that we have fought for our own?