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Thursday, June 15, 2017

Bob Thiel Mansplains to Tina Englebart

Almost-arrested Elisha, Elijah, Amos, Habakkuk, Thiel is doing what he does best, mansplaining. No other man in the history of the Church of God has ever felt the need to tell everyone in the church just how things are supposed to be on every imaginable topic. Even Dave Pack, the king of mouth diarrhea, at least sticks to his topic of the First Dominion instead of sticking his nose into hundreds of other subjects that most COG members could care less about.The doubly cursed self-appointed false prophet has taken great exception to Tina Engelbart's series of articles in The Journal concerning women speaking in church.Tina wrote:

Corinthians 14:34-35. Here are the two verses in the King James Version. “Let your women keep silence in the churches; for it is not permitted unto them to speak, but they are commanded to be under obedience [Gr. hupotasso], as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a shame [Gr. aischros] for women to speak in church” (Emphasis added).

First, some observations: The italicized phrase “they are commanded” was an addition by the translators; it is not in the original Greek. Further, hupotasso is more correctly translated “submission” rather than “obedience.” And the word translated as “shame” in verse 35 is the Greek word aischros— the same word translated as “ filthy” elsewhere, as in “ filthy lucre” (1 Timothy 3:8).

Most churches, and most Churches of God, and Mr. Mokarow say this means women must be silent in the church. UCG specifically said in their paper “The Biblical Role of Women”: “‘ Women should not speak,’ ” that is, preach or teach before the congregation” (emphasis added). It is interesting that women are allowed to sing before the congregation, which is not exactly being silent. …

There is only one law that specifically forbids women to speak in the assembly — and that is the Oral Law of the Jews, later written down and known as the Talmud.

What a shame that our churches, in imposing the silence injunction on our women, are actually following the dictates of the Talmud instead of the Apostle Paul!

The doubly-cursed false prophet writes:

Let me make a few points.

First, while Tina Engelbart is entitled to her opinion about what she thinks the Greek means, the reality is that there is no record of Christian women preaching in either the New Testament nor in early Christian writings. While it is possible that the apostate Simon Magus may have had a female preach, and maybe did some other apostates, people who understood koine Greek at the time apparently did not feel that the Apostle Paul was allowing women to preach.

Second, UCG is correct that women should not be preaching. This is confirmed by the following passage that is in the Bible (hence, even allowing for a different translation of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, this is not something only to be derived from the Talmud as Tina Engelbart indicates):

11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. (1 Timothy 2:11-12).

Third, as far as the Talmud goes, Tina Engelbart needs to consider that the Jews DID allow women to sing and hence the prohibition they had related to women speaking before the assembly did not include singing. That is the same in the Christian church as well.

In the (improperly named) Continuing Church of Godwe do not believe that women are to preach.

Perhaps you should Bob. They could do a far better job than you are doing.

Ugh! WHEN will guys (AND some girls) ever "come to a knowledge of the truth" that Bible-god and his followers (like this Thiel-guy) will NEVER CHANGE. I can accept that Bible-god could come up with absolute bull such as this absolute mysoginistic injunctions against the fairer creation, because he is a women-hater himself...

The REAL GOD and Creator, Upholder and Sustainer of the vast creation would NEVER allow such imbicillic nonsense to well up in Its mind, neither think of *inspiring* some dude to scribble down such drivel for posterity...

Eish! I think I'm in desperate need of taking a sabbatical from all this COG-shenanigans just to breath some fresh air, gain some perspective and renew my trust and faith that there still are some sane religious folk out there ... somewhere ...

STOP! I'm getting off this mad rollercoaster for a while.

Thiel, you and your fellow Cog-creeps, like Dave et al, go get a proper handle and grip on yourselves, 'K?

Sheezzz, to think in our day and age there still are some out there believing that whatever Paul and his ilk gurgatated, happens to be holy writ 😫

What's shocking is that Rod Meredith kept Thiel as a close confidante for nearly 20 years, so he could take Thiel's money. This was one of Meredith's patterns. He would flatter you and say you were so much more converted and wise than the other people around him, and that he wanted you to let him know about any problems in the church. Bob says he was "made an advisor" as if it was some formal appointment, when it was really just Rod's way of flattering and controlling, which worked so well with Bob, as we have seen. It is worth noting, however, that Rod even did this with his top people at HQ. He would tell Carl McNair, "You are my close confidante, Carl, and I need you to watch out for Larry Salyer and tell me when he is causing any problems." Meanwhile, Rod would go to Larry Salyer and say, "You are my close confidante, Larry, and I need you to watch out for Carl McNair and tell me when he is causing any problems."

The way he did this, Rod was for many years a master at causing division and keeping his underlings busy attacking each other in hope of pleasing Rod. The problem came when some of those underlings started to compare notes with each other, and realized the deception Rod was performing. Once Rod was exposed as such a liar, he lost much of his ability to control the people under him, because he could never control them by inspiring their respect and admiration (remember HWA's letter describing Rod's character), but only by stirring their fear and carnal ambition.

Thiel learned well from Rod, except that he has even less charisma and even more willingness to lie.

When I was in LCG it was common knowledge that Meredith was using Thiel because he was a good money source and not for his "biblical" knowledge. Everyone was always wrong except for him. HIs condescending attitude is what made him so repugnant to so may LCG members.

Would it be inappropriate to note that on many topics, it does not matter one bit what the Bible says? We have been programmed to automatically say, "well the Bible says" as if it matters which it often in our times does not. Why go thru agonizingly convoluted opinions on words and meanings when , such as the topic of "Women's roles" or "women cannot speak in the church" (ostensibly because "the woman sinned and not the man" and "Men come from women, not women from men" both of which are false"), when a simple, who cares what the Bible said then will do.

Ministers often say, "God says in his word" when in fact, a quick look will show it is actually a man who just said that. Of Paul it was said he was hard to be understood. That might be because he was giving a mistaken idea a convoluted explanation.

In short, it does not matter what the Bible says about women in church. It is outdated and mistaken in it's reasoning as to why this is so to begin with. If there was no literal Adam and Eve and no Eve to sin , and there wasn't, the point is moot. If women don't really come from the rib of men,and they don't, the point is moot. Both are the reasons women can't speak in church. Both are wrong.

Just as women evidently can be saved by childbirth, perhaps Bob can be saved if he gets some nice curtains.

There are a number of takes on this passage, and a seeming contradiction in 1 Cor 11:5. Bart Ehrman, in Misquoting Jesus argues that it’s a later insertion. Ron Dart would say, With Paul’s letters, we’re reading other people’s mail… As with other of Paul’s letters, this one answers questions (1 Cor 7:1) that we don’t have, so we’re playing Jeopardy!And this instruction is given to one congregation, and it has no scriptural precedent. The only thing close is a Pharisaic tradition recorded in the Talmud: “A woman’s voice is prohibited because it is sexually provocative”. So I’ll take this as a specific instruction based on an unknown question or situation in a specific Greek congregation.When I first attended a WCG service, I was expecting to see literal obedience. I had wondered, how are you supposed to talk to a girl if they were to keep silent? I was soon to find that they didn’t keep silent, and in the WCG were very hard to find.

Why even bother to respond if all you have to contribute is the traditional Armstrong belief on this topic? If Bob Thiel (as a prophet) had some newer or deeper insights with which to counter Tina, one can imagine him being eager to take up pen and paper on this topic. Instead, he offers the predictable Armstrong cliche, something of which he has made an entire hobby through his cogwriter website.

Actually Mr. Thiel is wrong in some of his observations. I am a practicing Jew, and in Orthodox Judaism males cannot listen to females singing. This prohibition is called the ‘kol isha’ (voice of a woman) prohibition. And as a sola-scriptura Jew (and a former Shammai Jew) I find the whole ‘women can’t preach’ statement to go against the plain meaning of the Torah which states in Genesis chapter 2 that man and woman were made equal in the eyes of God. The ‘COGs’ have some truly horrendous rules and regulations.

Bob may take umbrage with the "money source" bit...Well, Bob, before you go off all burthurt again, please note that we have yet ANOTHER individual commenting on your apparent "bugging" with your pushy, self-righteous behavior. You had an online tantrum when Meredith informed you of the exact same thing. When's it going to get through to you, man?

Actually more than being a money contributor to Meredith, Thiel was much more useful to RCM as a sort of "back channel" way for Bob to be posting attacks on all the other COGs via Bob's "COGWRITER" website.

In a "All Roads Lead To Rome" fashion, Bob would create all the arguments on why those COGs were apostate, with the answer always being "But we in the Living Church of God, do it the correct Biblical way, under the direction of Mr. Meredith".

Useful attack dog with plausible deniability or direct authorization that could be attributed to Meredith, and yet serving Rod's agenda.

Actually more than being a money contributor to Meredith, Thiel was much more useful to RCM as a sort of "back channel" way for Bob to be posting attacks on all the other COGs via Bob's "COGWRITER" website.

Meredith never figured out that Thiel actually lost members for LCG. Quite a few potential members noticed that even with Thiel's horrible, rotten, competitive, hateful attitudes and posts, Meredith kept him as a favored member of LCG. The only "good" this did was that it let Meredith find an outlet for his own hatefulness without having it directly traceable back to him.

Meredith thought he was enabling an attack dog who would do his dirty work. Instead, Thiel held up a mirror to Meredith and LCG, and many who saw the Thiel/Meredith combo decided that they didn't like what they saw.

All the little misfits that couldn't ascend through normal channels yet want to be great teachers or preservers seem to be seeking some sort of special Herbalblessance in the millennium. They're like the ones who would suddenly disrupt a touch football fame at a church picnic to complain that some of the players were using blocking techniques condemned in the PT and Good News. And, of course, that little blast from the past has a special connection to a certain someone who teaches that it's a sin to even watch NFL football games.

Bob has always been a bitter angry little man. It shows up in his writings. It shows up in his sermons. He was angry when he was being used by Meredith to criticize other COG's. Then when Meredith kicked him to the curb that anger was unleashed upon Meredith and LCG causing Thiel to start his own group. Everyone in LCG knew what kind of a snake he was and that is why no one from LCG has jumped to his side. He claims he was so well loved by LCG members, yet we all know that to be a different story.

After reading some of the literature of various Armstrong groups it's plain to see why their members stay so depressed. Trying to do the tithing thing puts a person in financial dire straits and trying to observe the Hebrew feast days causes a person to get fired from their place of employment. No wonder the suicide rate is so high amongst them.

After reading some of the literature of various Armstrong groups it's plain to see why their members stay so depressed. Trying to do the tithing thing puts a person in financial dire straits and trying to observe the Hebrew feast days causes a person to get fired from their place of employment. No wonder the suicide rate is so high amongst them.

LCG last week held a summer camp for pre-teens who have parents in the cult. What would you guess the children learned about? Jesus and His love for little children? Jesus' great mercy toward repentant sinners? The glorious World Tomorrow in which there will be peace and love and prosperity for all?

Of course not.

The camp theme was the Book of Exodus. Suffer like the Egyptians unless you obey Biblegod. Accept the heavy burden of Old Testament law-keeping, not the light burden of Jesus' yoke. Don't sin like you constantly see your parents and ministers sinning (remember, youngsters are EXCELLENT hypocrisy detectors), or else you will go into the Tribulation or the Lake of Fire. What a dreary camp that must have been.

Women are not allowed to sing except amongst other women. Men are not allowed to hear women singing.It is called Kol Isha, the voice of a woman and so in orthodox Judaism women sit separately from men either in the ezras nashim.. a balcony for women behind the men, or behind a mechitza, a wall that separates the sexes.Women do not sing in services at all.Even in public performances among orthodox women perform only for other women and but men can perform for both sexes.

Oh yeah, women take a back seat until men want sex. This shit is so stupid. I speak this from a real man's point of view. Don't forget the great Judah and the harlot, or David and Bathsheba. Jews are no different than Armstrongism with the bullshit.

Maybe that's what the, "and the dumb(not speaking /voiceless) shall sing" is all about. Women (and children, with the "be seen and not heard" so-called rule) will actually be able to speak and sing. They will actually have a voice. So does that mean this system of rules to shut women and children up (and shut them down/crush them) is cruel and wrong?! If it is cruel and wrong why is it taught world-wide?... Doesn't it say that christian's are not to do what the world does?

How do you mess everybody up /"deceive the whole world"? Do you create a book with 'knowledge of good(the righteous God's word) and evil'(confusion) in it and call it god's word. So everybody in the world (or most) end up following it and become well indoctrinated in 'good AND evil' instead of led by the Holy Spirit? i don't know. What I do know is I'm tired of it all. The cruelty, the abuse and misuse, the wars, the fighting, the nobody can seem to get along with any body else....just tired. It hurts. Make it stop.

Armstrongism always worked through shock value, redefining and opposing cherished elements of the mainstream, and constant fear, 7:49. By design, it did beat people up, break their spirits, and give them ulcers, depression, and paranoia. It did not imbue people with the power of positive thinking, but instead, the power of suppository thinking. Most of us were tired of the beatdown when we finally perceived its many failures, the basic defective nature of the product when used as intended, and left.