Sunday, 11 December 2011

Optional Phoenix Viewer Mesh Update

Thank you Henri
Firstly I want to make it clear that the only reason the phoenix viewer has mesh now is because of the tireless and determined efforts of Henri Beauchamp of the Cool VL Viewer. I would encourage those of you who appreciate these efforts to thank him personally. Credits and Kudos! Thank you Henri!

Our Focus & Our Promise
We stated some time ago our active development commitment is now focused on the Firestorm viewer and that continues today. We still feel strongly that the end of V1 functionality is an inevitability, so it is more important to develop an alternative viewer for our users they will enjoy for when that time comes than to spend our efforts on a dying viewer and then leave our users with no alternative once it's gone. However, we also promised we would try to keep the phoenix viewer alive for you until it is no longer feasible to do so. As you can see, we are not walking away from that promise, but it is important to understand that Phoenix is no longer our top priority. When necessary we will continue to keep it up to date with advances/fixes from other third party viewers and provide them the credit they deserve for that work. But 'we' are no longer actively developing Phoenix on our own steam.

Future of Phoenix Viewer
Any future releases of Phoenix will be sparse and only if needed. I will not commit to saying this is the last Phoenix Viewer Release, but I will also not commit to saying it isn't the last either. I will say... this is one of our last. As time passes we will determine if another release is absolutely necessary and/or sensible and make a decision then on whether another update is mandatory in order to keep our promise to you.

Stability & Usability
Phoenix 1185 was, is and will always be our most stable release ever. Please do not expect this phoenix viewer with mesh to be as stable, it simply is not. If it has stability issues it's because it is now a hybrid of two different code bases. The bottom line is that a V1 viewer with a lot of V2 code hacked into the render engine is not going to give you stability as you've come to expect it from this project. Mesh was NOT designed to work with V1 code. We deliver you this viewer on an AS-IS basis.

No RLVa Update
RLVa has not been updated in this Phoenix viewer release. This was my decision, not that of Kitty Barnett. Although I said some time back we would update RLVa in Phoenix it became obvious that the work/time commitment involved in doing so was simply not reasonable or responsible. Kitty is a very valuable asset to this team and I refuse to take her away from the ground breaking work she does in Firestorm and v2/v3 to put a large time commitment into a dying viewer code base. She is worth far more than that. If you want updated RLVa I would suggest using the Firestorm Viewer or Kitty's own Viewer Catznip. I offer you my sincerest apologies for going back on my word in regards to RLVa update in Phoenix, however I believe it was the right decision.

Complaints
Please don't complain if this release doesn't work perfectly. If you find the viewer to be unusable you can return to our 1185 version without mesh or switch to the Firestorm Viewer. Complaints about the stability and usability of this release will largely go unheard, we did not modify the mesh code to work in V1 and will only spend limited time trying to fix issues resulting from it. Complaints about this project removing focus on Phoenix Viewer should go to me at jessica.lyon@phoenixviewer.com .

Reduced Support
Phoenix Viewer is becoming harder for us to provide support for at an ever increasing rate. Almost all our support team members are using Firestorm (by choice) as their full time viewer, and being that Firestorm is now our default viewer this should be expected. Support for this release and the phoenix viewer in general will be far more limited this point on. Support will continue to try to help you but in many situations may be unable to do so. Please do not get angry at them if they are unable to provide help for you. Also, please remember... Our support team is not required to help you, they do so on their own accord because they want to.

For those of you who made it this far into the blog post I would like to say a special thank you for taking the time to do so! Here is the change log!

On behalf of myself and all of us at the Phoenix Viewer Project, we hope you all enjoy our latest releases of Firestorm and now Phoenix viewers.

163 comments:

I will not change to Firestorm until it shows what friends have checked as Phoenix does (who has unclicked me from seeing them online, etc). It is very useful tool in detemining who stays on my friends list.

@Venus: A better gauge of friendship would be knowing who wishes to hide and who wishes not to keep secrets.

While I use Firestorm, I am one of the people who voted to have such functions added into the client program.

There are places I will not go to when certain people are online and it helps to know when they are on, in my friends list or not, hiding from everyone or not. I'm not about to take up a HUD or other attach point to have such functionality either.

Further, if a person shows up as online but hiding from me (visibility unchecked), it tells me at a glance that they have no wish to be disturbed. At any other point, with clients which do NOT show this information, I would otherwise have sent a message, thinking that they will get it as an offline ..... and get chewed out for disturbing them!

"Privacy" only goes so far ... and as far as I am concerned, ends when people who wish for such respond with verbal abuse the moment they even suspect a breach has happened.

I just want to thank all of the people at Phoenix/Firestorm as well as all of the others who work so hard creating these 3rd party viewers with all of the added features and such.Your hard work and dedication is very much appreciated even if all some people can do is complain about it.Thank you.

i love phoenix viewer so much, that nice its have mesh update, but i really wish update for multiple layer...that the last tings i wish that phoenix viewer will have, then it will be the perfect 3rd party viewer ever...

Thanks for throwing us this bone. I'll use it until it no longer works. Then if there are no other options other then using V2 type viewers, I'll quietly walk away from SL. Unless LL decides to actually clean up their V2 code so it isn't so much of a resource hog.

Frankly I find the tone and attitude displayed in the text of this release arrogant and not a little like LL's, I think I will be moving to Henrys version if this is the last real work that will be put into the still superior viewer. If you think it's a waste of time to maintain a viewer that a large chunk of the user base still prefer over that POS V2 base then perhaps you should just get out of the responsability of creating any viewer.

Choice is never a bad idea despite what you may think and for a lot of us the V2 based viewer despite all the improvements the Firestorm team have done is still not an acceptable alternative to the Phoenix viewer. It is also not because I don't want to move on, I was lookin forward to V2 for a year before it came out and was severly dissapointed in the poor design that still persists today. When V2/FS has a chat box like V1 and no annoying toasts and text buttons not icons across the bottom then it will be an acceptable replacement, not until.

Some people like the V2 behaviour and some don't it's a matter of preference and to tell anyone they should just give it up needs to zip it.

I can only agree with all the comments made so far. I'll just add a few more things: I think the Phoenix team completely underestimate the power they have due to their user base. Apart from a very little part of my friends, almost all of them are using Phoenix, and just do not want anything looking like V2. And I see the same proportion in the viewers people use in every place I go. I'm pretty sure than when the V1 lineage dies, a lot of people will do like Wolfee, just go away from SL.Seems the only reason why people use Firestorm is that it looks like Phoenix, or that it's just "here to stay, so we'd better get used to it"… Not exactly enthusiastic… And I can understand that: I'm still looking for any new useful feature in FIrestorm. For me, it's just changing all my habits for the sake of changing, a new big load of bugs and a bunch of regressions in features that already were in Phoenix.I do try every new Firestorm version, and not for 10 minutes, often for a week or two. And I always end up giving up. Too many bugs, too many crippled features, too many GUI nonsense…

"Seems the only reason why people use Firestorm is that it looks like Phoenix, or that it's just 'here to stay, so we'd better get used to i'"

I may be the only one in the whole world (though I doubt it) that this is not the case for, but I have wanted to switch to Firestorm for a while, and I was finally able to with its official release because it was finally stable on my machine. I am quite happy with it.

I also appreciate the candor of the Phoenix team, who by the way, does all of this work of their own free will on their own free time. They don't have to make these viewers. They never did. Just think of how much more bitching you'd have to do if they didn't exist at all!

P.S.People who have issues with other people - mute + derender is very useful and satisfying, btw.

So i tried Phoenix recently and i wanted to view a web page on a.. oh wait.... yeah phoenix doesn't support a two year old feature called "Media on Prim" and the latest V3 viewer is not that bad considering you can put the buttons where you want

Well, I'm happy with Firestorm. It takes a bit longer to customize but it's worth the effort. Thanks guys. It's sad to watch how LL keeps struggling with shady stages of development and introducing ridiculous flaws, while the only people who are working hard to make it bearable for us, are receiving so much bad feedback.

Maybe it's time to build an own grid, with blackjack and hookers. In fact, forget the grid and the blackjack. Ahh, screw the whole thing!

Thank you to the whole team, for all the work..I have read the full blog on Phoenix future, I do think you are right in putting you efforts into FS. I am a diehard Phoenix user, but also do realize that FS is the future.

I dont understand people here. How can someone think that Phoenix is a better viewer? The only "good" thing is that we were used to use that interface. Asides from that, have nothing to do with Firestorm wich have a really nice performance I never seen before. Why could I like to use a viewer running at 15 fps while I can use one running at 60 fps with shadows, dof and such? Just for the interface? lol Common people, those that said that Firestorm is so hard must be people without any patience. Firestorm isnt hard, is just a new viewer and it take really few time to get used to it.I really apreciate this release of Phoenix because it will help some people to see meshes, but what I really apreciate is the real nice job done with the latest Firestorm viewer and his awesome performance and stability/functionality.

Cheers for the update :) Mesh still leaves me *bleh* but its great to have alternatives. There are still enough annoyances about the FS UI (for me) that I will continue to switch between viewers depending on what I am doing (hey I still run the ancient 1.23 for fun now and again) but I expect these to be ironed out (ahem not even going near web based search as I leave feedback in the wilderness whenever I can). In terms of performance, FS runs amazingly well even on my ancient Victorian era laptop :) Roll out an option to have all the text display in the same font as the script window and I would be one very happy Kitten :) So again - cheers

Jessica dear, All I can and will say is this:Thanks for making a version of Phoenix that supports Mesh even if it was Henry who actually made it possible. People who have the nerve to say your arrogant, screw them, if they don't like it, let them try and make a viewer them self. I appreciate what you and your team has done so far, and I will keep trying new versions of FS until it has become the way I like it. For now I will stick to Phoenix as long as I can, knowing some day I will have to switch and hoping by that time I am used to that awful UI or you and your team found a way to get the good old trusted V1 UI working in FS.Keep up the good work and just ignore those who can do nothing but complain and criticize, they are just too dumb to see that you and your team make this all possible for free.Maggy :)

Thanks for throwing us this bone. I'll use it until it no longer works. Then if there are no other options other then using V2 type viewers, I'll quietly walk away from SL. Unless LL decides to actually clean up their V2 code so it isn't so much of a resource hog.

v2 based viewers are not bad, and they are the future of Sl whether you like it or not. You might not realize it but this latest version of phoenix uses the v3 rendering code, which means it uses all the resources v3/firestorm would, if ntot more because mesh isn't optimized for viewer 1.

Frankly I find the tone and attitude displayed in the text of this release arrogant and not a little like LL's,

It's called being a realist, because many people are hardheaded and don't listen. The phoenix devs have been saying this for months, and you all act so suprised. They are just saying they are focusing on firestorm.

I think I will be moving to Henrys version if this is the last real work that will be put into the still superior viewer.

Superior how exactly? no v1 lover can give me ANY reason v1 is superior besides the UI, and that is a preference. That said, have fun when LL pulls the plug on v1 access.

If you think it's a waste of time to maintain a viewer that a large chunk of the user base still prefer over that POS V2 base then perhaps you should just get out of the responsability of creating any viewer.

and you called the devs arrogant? Its a waste of time because LL will be cutting off v1 features in the future. Why put work into a viewer that will case to work in the future? Many people are moving to firestorm, just because its v2 based does not make it bad.

It is also not because I don't want to move on,

Then thats your problem, technology changes. I am suprised they have let people use v1 this long frankly.

When V2/FS has a chat box like V1 and no annoying toasts and text buttons not icons across the bottom then it will be an acceptable replacement, not until.

V 3.2 from LL does have a v1 like chat box, and toasts i think can be disabled. it also has text buttons, but you havent tried anything since v 2.0 i bet and think LL doesnt change anything, even thoguh they came out with new versions like once a month. LLs viewer today is a lot better then 2.0, and firestorm will be following them

Some people like the V2 behaviour and some don't it's a matter of preference and to tell anyone they should just give it up needs to zip it.

And anyone telling everyone we all need to go back to v1 code because its what THEY are used to needs to zip it. Its fine to prefer v1, but stop acting like it has any kind of future in SL

Apart from a very little part of my friends, almost all of them are using Phoenix, and just do not want anything looking like V2.

SO because your friends think v2 is bad, therefore it mucst be bad. Then more and more will either stop coming on SL, or they will move to firestorm or v3. What will your argument be then? Also, firestorm does not look as much like v2 as people think it does.

And I see the same proportion in the viewers people use in every place I go.

I don't, and I go a LOT of places in SL. usually its like 50 percent phoenix, 30 percent firestorm, 10 percent LL viewer 3, and 10 percent other (imprudence, singularity, etc).

I'm pretty sure than when the V1 lineage dies, a lot of people will do like Wolfee, just go away from SL.

why? because they dislike some of the UI? that is a pathetic reason to leave. instead of trying to make firestorm and v3 better, just bitch about it and cling to viewer 1 is apparently the way to go for these people. Like ostriches, sticking your head in the sand won't keep you from being hit by the truck of reality. It will be sad to see them go...or maybe not since the bitching from some is getting annoying

Seems the only reason why people use Firestorm is that it looks like Phoenix, or that it's just "here to stay, so we'd better get used to it"…

I use firestorm because I like firestorm. i prefer its UI, i like its features, and i like how well it runs on my system.

I tried using Firestorm only to experience endless crashes, either of the viewer itself or my PC. It is a high end gaming computer designed to handle graphics intensive programs like Second Life. I never had this problem with Phoenix. After looking at how much in resources each viewer uses, Phoenix uses far less. Firestorm will not load my avatar most of the time, and nothing I do makes it load. People here claiming that folks who are having problems with Viewer 2/3 need to shut up and embrace the future need to embrace reality. You got a really buggy Viewer that don't work, and you are dumping all over people that raise these concerns. And you wonder why we cop an attitude.

I tried using Firestorm only to experience endless crashes, either of the viewer itself or my PC.

And did you go to the support team ? read the wiki? constant crashes are not a common occurrence with firestorm. It was likely a setting or some sort of conflict

It is a high end gaming computer designed to handle graphics intensive programs like Second Life. I never had this problem with Phoenix.

If you are able to use the mesh viewer without a problem then you should have no issues with firestorm because they use the same rendering code.

After looking at how much in resources each viewer uses, Phoenix uses far less.

say that after looking at how much the mesh viewer uses. windows 95 uses less resources than windows XP or windows 7 so I guess windows 95 is superior to both by your logic.

Firestorm will not load my avatar most of the time, and nothing I do makes it load.

Yet another issue support gets all the time, its quite easily fixed as well.

People here claiming that folks who are having problems with Viewer 2/3 need to shut up and embrace the future need to embrace reality.

Oh but we have. We know Linden Lab has moved on to viewer 2/3, and phoenix team is too. Its the ones wanting us to keep using V1 forever that need to embrace reality. Many of the problems are easily fixable with a few minutes of time. Phoenix isn't perfect either.

You got a really buggy Viewer that don't work, and you are dumping all over people that raise these concerns. And you wonder why we cop an attitude.

Firestorm isn't buggy in my and most of the people that use it's experience. it does work, otherwise I wold not use it. And yeah, saying "Hurrr the UI sucks i am leaving Sl forever if you drop v1, im going to another viewer BAWWWWWWW" is not a concern, its a complaint, and one we hve been hearing for months now with the same. exact. arguements. that have mostly been debunked over and over again but are still seen as fact (anything to hate v2 and its users)

I think it was incredibly gracious of the team to release this at ALL.

I personally would love to see their time spent moving FORWARD in SL. I HATED making the switch from Phoenix, trust me, but as with anything else in technology, we have to change as we move forward. New introductions to SL just aren't going to work in the v1 coding. If you want to continue living SL like it's 2007, go ahead. Keep wearing bling and photorealistic textures and use viewer one. Just don't complain when it doesn't work cause others aren't wearing bellbottoms and sporting the Farrah Fawcet hairdo anymore. It's time to move forward. We've had a LONG transition period.

@Serith, are you calling me a liar? B/C if you are you really should be prepared to back that up. I am telling you the bugs I have experienced. It is not my fault that you choose not to believe they exist. They do. Denial will not change the fact that Firestorm is actually a huge step backward from what many Second Life members are used to.

You know what? You know what you can do with that chip on your shoulder. When people keep raising the same complaints for months on end, that should tell you that you are doing something seriously wrong. Instead you are stubbornly remaining resistent to feedback from members.

No, if you read, i said the issue of "crashing all the time" is not common on firestorm, not that you were lying, and that the issue might be a settings conflict and to go to phoenix support for help. I don't deny firestorm has bugs, but they are not common either.

Denial will not change the fact that Firestorm is actually a huge step backward from what many Second Life members are used to.

It is not a huge step backward for most people that take the time to get used to it. performance wise, most like it better than phoenix and it works better for me and most I speak to than phoenix. Then again I use both viewers often so I would actually know what performance is like with both.

You know what? You know what you can do with that chip on your shoulder.

The v1 people are the ones with chips on their shoulders. yay phoenix has mesh. thats somehow an excuse to rail about how firestorm sucks. I said several months ago there would be blowback if people went on with irrational hatred for v2 based viewers and their users.

When people keep raising the same complaints for months on end, that should tell you that you are doing something seriously wrong.

about 80 percent of the bitching about firestorm on here is "WAHHHH ITS NOT EXACTLY LIKE PHOENIX". They dont like that it does not have an exactly v1 like Ui. another 10 percent are ones who say performance is worse or whatever even though they don't take time to tweak settings like they would in phoenix, and that they will use singularity or phoenix mesh which use the same render code as firestorm and v3 do and thus are no better with lag or resource use than v3/firestorm.

Instead you are stubbornly remaining resistent to feedback from members.

"YOUR VIEWER SUCKS!!" isnt feedback. Its also not criticism, its just trolling since there is nothing constructive about it. I am a beta tester for phoenix and firestorm. if i see a problem with the viewer I report it in the JIRA. If you want a feature or such you can also request it here: http://jira.phoenixviewer.com . Then again it has to be ACTUAL FEEDBACK. Saying just "this sucks" and "this uses too much resources" are not valid feedback. You have to say HOW it sucks or WHAT resources its using too much of, then the devs will see if either can be improved or fixed. I would be willing to bet most of those bashing firestorm really have not tried it, because most of those i know that do try it actually like it, even die-hard v2 haters.

Multiple lawers will only be on Cool viewer and Singularity! As Henry already stated that will be his next update and singularity will port that as well! As to Phoneix/firestorm team, all i can say is farewell!

I loved Phoenix, but since FS mesh beta came out, I've used it very little. The interface can be configured to operate (mostly) the way I like, and there ARE features I want that Phoenix doesn't have...like built in flight assist and a much better built in AO. Also, some of the Drama-causing snoopy features AREN'T there.

There are only three things about FS that currently bug me, and none of them are the FS team's fault, they are part of the V2/3 code: 1. No notes section in one's own Profile; 2. Too many mouse clicks to accept an animation request (and the little toasts are so easy to miss in the first place); 3. My FPS is way down, compared to Phoenix, despite doing the usual performance tweaks.

Put me down as a satisfied Firestorm user, who's looking forward to even more improvements in the future. Thank you Jessica and team for all your efforts, both to keep Phoenix alive and viable for the diehards, and on the new viewer!

Thank you for pushing ahead on this. I had planned to stick to Firestorm once it had spell check. But it even the secondary install of it, with out the LL graphic fixes, worked horribly on my system. And I couldn't even run the main install with the fixes.

I think it’s quite a laugh how people are flicking bogeys at coders who keep sharing their efforts and their results for free. As if the mere use of Phoenix and Firestorm gave any user any rights to demand anything of the devs. If you don’t like it, don’t bloody use it! I take it that constructive criticism and substantial suggestions through the JIRA channel are very much appreciated by the Phoenix/Firestorm team as being stimulating and helpful. Flaming is neither. So shove it!

Simply to say that Firestorm changed my mind and that of several of my friends about the V2/3 codebase. No , it's not perfect and all this Hoo-Haa about the new render engine using more resources....it does, but it doesn't prevent lower-end users from using it. One of my friends uses a fairly mediocre Laptop on a wireless connection and she can use and appreciate Firestorm.I hated V2 and at first I hated Mesh, but I am learning that just cos I hated it, didn't mean that it wasn't the way forward.

I dont like Firstorm simply because of how confusing it is and fills up my screen. Phoenix was clean and I learned it in the matter of hours. Firestorm, on the other hand, is just the opposite. I will still with phoenix until it absolutely does not work and I have no choice but to switch. With that said, do not get this review twisted though because I appreciate the hard work of the team and they are all awesome.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... bad UI is bad UI. I miss phoenix UI... THAT IS ALL I MISS ABOUT PHOENIX! I really wish the time spent on this had actually been spent just porting the UI from Phoenix to Firestorm. That's literally all that needed to happen... people would never know the difference under the hood. I -really- hope to see a port of the old V1 UI on V2+ viewers because this new UI is... clunky. It doesn't improve on user experience at all, and in most cases, it hinders it. It's very counter-intuitive over a lot of the old design. 'Forcing' people to accept the new design is a piss poor judgement call on LL's part.

I am glad to see this update so I can use my mesh gear, and even more glad to see the team saying Phoenix support is been lowered.

Phoenix may of been great, it may use the V1 UI, but so what? Aside from what I personally find is an awful UI, what does V1 have that V2 does not? Firestorms UI is heavily customizable, and i have yet to find a single thing I can do in phoenix that I can't in Firestorm.

Like it or not, the only reason people rant on about V1 been better is because they are used to that unpleasant UI it uses. That and that are Kainotophic.

If you have issues with lsl editor have a look to PHOE-3593 in phoenix JIRA. Given the attitude of the release announce, I doubt you will see that in an official release soon. To phoenix team: the only reasons I haven't switched to henry's viewer yet is that it lacks a number of things which are in phoenix, like a good radar, chat commands and the radar is better. As many many many other here, we don't want and don't like v2 based viewers.

I've been logged in with this version of Phoenix - Linux for many hours. I've been around mesh vehicles (sculpted ones too) and high speed physical movement surrounded by gobs of textures. This Phoenix works great in every condition I've had it in so far.

I'm still looking to the future because there are substantial technical performance gains to be had with Viewers such as Firestorm and LL's current viewer.

If people haven't noticed: You can't even configure the bottom control panels in a V1, but you can (now) in any V2. Snowglobe (V1) viewers really are fading into the past.

I've tried all the Firestorm updates, I've tried other viewers like Singularity as well. They run cripplingly slow, enough to the point where I don't even want to be on SL (and this is even after reducing settings to far below where I -should- be able to run them. Additionally, this isn't an old or slow computer). I installed the Phoenix mesh update skeptically believing ANY mesh viewer would be this way and I was shocked to find I am running just as quickly as I was before; no need to change my settings. I can't believe the attitude of people like Serith who demand every single person embrace something that doesn't work for many, or that all those people have to spend precious time combing a wiki or pestering support just to function from the basic installation. The latter options are ridiculous when it's such a seemingly -high- number of users with issues. In the end, there's not a thing the users can do given this attitude about 'progress'. Hopefully someone somewhere will figure out how to make a compliant viewer without issues. Until then they can wave all the shiny new features at me they want. They mean nothing if the viewer is unusable.

By the way, just a little comparison between viewers that I posted in the previous announce.

A friend of mine was posing for me while I was switching viewers and taking snapshots of the framerate of each viewer. All viewers were set on High profile in the Graphics section, with Water changed to All Avatars and Objects, and RenderVolumeLODFactor set to 3 which many suggest.

I've tried all the Firestorm updates, I've tried other viewers like Singularity as well. They run cripplingly slow, enough to the point where I don't even want to be on SL (and this is even after reducing settings to far below where I -should- be able to run them.

And that is fine, not everyone can run them well, though its not always viewer related, there are things like your connection to consider too.

I installed the Phoenix mesh update skeptically believing ANY mesh viewer would be this way and I was shocked to find I am running just as quickly as I was before; no need to change my settings.

I smell bullshit. Phoenix mesh code is the EXACT SAME CODE as that running in singularity and firestorm and viewer 3. So why phoenix would magically work and run fast while the others would not makes no sense at all.

I can't believe the attitude of people like Serith who demand every single person embrace something that doesn't work for many,

My attitude comes from how i was and am treated by phoenix people. People don't have to use firestorm, but at the same time, hate to break this to you but linden labs and the phoenix team are moving on to something else. The only reason it "doesnt work for many" is because many cling to phoenix for its v1 Ui and no other reason. Now all the people are claiming performance issues (even though they likely only use it for like 5 minutes at a time then log out) which is BS. The people calling for them to cancel firestorm and go back to phoenix are especially nerve grating. You can have phoenix, but I prefer firestorm.

or that all those people have to spend precious time combing a wiki or pestering support just to function from the basic installation.

Well they also have classes and other things, all new things take time to learn, and again, most of the bitching is because the Ui is different, thats the *real* reason most of the firestorm haters are complaining. Support is there to help with problems, but for learning how to use the viewer they will point you to the wiki too. It would take all of 20 minutes to read everything on firestorm, but apparently people are too lazy to learn something new, and thats not my, nor the devs faults, thats yours.

The latter options are ridiculous when it's such a seemingly -high- number of users with issues.

Support is there to fix problems, so thats where all the reports of problems go. I see plenty of people with problems in phoenix too, so i suppose phoenix is error plagued too.

Hopefully someone somewhere will figure out how to make a compliant viewer without issues.

For a while, until they cut v1 support. Right now there are several compliant v1 viewers, but when LL starts shutting those off then you will have to use v2.

Until then they can wave all the shiny new features at me they want. They mean nothing if the viewer is unusable.

Check different settings, because something doesnt smell right. That phoenix mesh works but firestorm and singularity dont is BS, they all use the same code. I honestly think you tolerate more form phoenix because of its UI

aww i was looking forward to this mesh thing happening and i updated but everything looks so jagged i can't even use it. and i don't want to throw all my settings down because i'm used to using full graphics! (which is why i can't use firestorm plus it crashes and i stay an orange mist forever)...

Serith I take great offense to your assumptions, considering the willingness I -did- have to use the newer viewer when they first launched it. Not once did I mention the UI or that Firestorm should be abandoned in lieu of Phoenix. I'm perfectly aware that they have different UI's and I never once complained about that. It's true I prefer the old UI, but I'm completely willing to cope with the new one if it would work correctly (because as everyone keeps claiming "that's all we'll eventually have" for viewers). Other than the speed issues (of which it's not my connection, I can assure you ;D ), I had other issues with parts of the viewer not working. Again, I take those with a grain of salt, some have been addressed in updates, some have not. Those are the way things go with developing viewers and I understand that. However, the speed issue has never improved for me. And that alone is something I can't function under.

From a consumer's standpoint, it is an issue to have to read and probe and comb just to make something work 'out of box' for many users (not counting those who ARE complaining only about UI or simply aren't able to navigate the UI yet). Essentially if the product cannot work after installation and easy-to-manage tweaks that the individual can locate and execute on their own, there IS an issue; however long they may take. It's a matter of offering a polished product. Granted up until now they were beta released, but the official one is out now. So I expect a great deal more in its freshly-installed state.

And I'm not sure what you're smelling that's BS. For whatever reason the Phoenix release is running fine for me, the others are not. I never touched the settings or altered them between upgrades. With the V2/3 viewers I've tried turning overall graphics down, I've lowered specifics like LOD, I've reinstalled, uninstalled, clean installed and still no result. Unless you have some suggestion, I'm open to hear it, however all I can tell you is with Phoenix I did not have to tangle with this much just to achieve basic functionality. That was all I am pointing out.

You spend a lot of time making these harsh judgments of people and assumptions that don't really add up except to add to the already hostile attitude towards anyone with a complaint. There's a difference in offering an opposing opinion/suggestions gracefully and climbing down each person's throat (haphazardly, might I add). I'm sure there are bad eggs in the Phoenix lot complaining for the sake of complaining but some of us -do- have genuine issues and that's wholly unfair to us to tell the entire lot of us to basically be quiet and deal with the new releases.

Serith I take great offense to your assumptions, considering the willingness I -did- have to use the newer viewer when they first launched it.

when did you use it? with the previews? the betas? or release? the release is much different than the previews.

Not once did I mention the UI or that Firestorm should be abandoned in lieu of Phoenix.

but many have here, both in this and previous blog posts. Some of the same ones complaining here called for phoenix to be canceled and that the UI sucks and all that

From a consumer's standpoint, it is an issue to have to read and probe and comb just to make something work 'out of box' for many users

Phoenix doesnt work out of the box for new users. I remember being a noob having to use the v1 Ui. it is not easy to use. Most are screeching because the V1 interface iswhat they are familiar with. They have no problem reading a game manual for an xbox game, but reading a wiki is too hard for them

Essentially if the product cannot work after installation and easy-to-manage tweaks that the individual can locate and execute on their own, there IS an issue; however long they may take.

Firestorms tweaks are as easy to find as phoenixes are, most have no issue with firestorm. Some do, but some is not most.

And I'm not sure what you're smelling that's BS.

As i explained, singularity and the pheonix mesh beta use the exact same rendering code. They both ported it from V3, so there is no reason one should work and others shouldnt, at least not a issue with the viewer.

You spend a lot of time making these harsh judgments of people and assumptions that don't really add up except to add to the already hostile attitude towards anyone with a complaint.

I dont care if someone has a complaint, i would just rather it be CONSTRUCTIVE. "This viewer sucks" is not constructive. After hearing it for months, it gets really old really fast.

There's a difference in offering an opposing opinion/suggestions gracefully and climbing down each person's throat (haphazardly, might I add).

You mean like the phoenix user who kicked me off their sim because i was using firestorm for betatesting, and kept kicking me until i used a "proper" viewer? Or the ones that would not shut up about how much v2 based viewers suck and i shoudl switch to a superior v1 one for months on end? Bluntly, v1 diehards are the LAST ones that need to be talking about climbing down throats, because in my experience they do it more than the firestorm people do by far.

some of us -do- have genuine issues and that's wholly unfair to us to tell the entire lot of us to basically be quiet and deal with the new releases.And I gave a place to do that constructively: http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/ . The developers look there and will try to solve issues as best they can. Only thing is they have to be more than "this sucks because its not phoenix". I dont see a problem with complaining about legitimate problems, I see a problem with useless, flaming type complaints.

It’s certainly bitter when things don’t run at all or not as well on one’s own computer which seem to run well on other people’s machines. As individual configurations differ, that’s unfortunate, but kind of normal. But taking complaints about these matters onto this here blog won’t buy anybody anything. The Phoenix/Firestorm team has far more volunteer support people than developers, and they offer assistance 24/7, in several languages. This, too, is for free. Who else does this for you? Ask them for help or use the JIRA. And, if I may say so, it’s a very good idea to consult the Wiki first.

You've spent a lot of time comparing me (possibly some of the other people here too) to a group of other people who aren't us and using that comparison for a basis for why your attitude is warranted. :| I'm sorry those things have happened to you, they are truly inexcusable, but that's a horrible reason to treat different people like they have done those things to you. There's always going to be purists on either side but one side treating the other like that because of the purists is asinine and childish. Ignoring them is far easier and quicker. If they are immature enough to take something like this into a fanboyistic vendetta of one being better without basis then really, do you -want- to pay attention to them?

I never said "LOL FIRESTORM SUCKS". I never said I liked it either, which I believe is fair given my struggle with it. Simply put I wanted to make known that some of us really are struggling with it despite best intentions. I understand the number of people with issues is not -all- the people with Firestorm, but those people I feel are important too.

As for what releases I've used, I've downloaded and tried every single release so far from the beginning until the present 'official' one. I genuinely hoped it was an update issue and it would be fixed so I keep downloading them; I wasn't about to just give up without trying.

As to the mesh code point then it just proves that it isn't the 'mesh' code causing me issues as I was mistaken about, rather it is probably something else in the framework of V2/3 that I haven't been able to deduce.

I've been reading the wiki and following their advice to no result on this issue or a few others. I've also been paying attention to the Jira and others with similar issues and attempting to use the advice there. I still haven't had any luck and at this point the only recourse is to leave a ticket myself. I find this disheartening as I said before since I have to go to these lengths.

I had to tweak Phoenix too when I first switched to it, but I never had to climb through this many hoops just to function. For the most part, it still worked, I could use almost all its features. And the ones I didn't like I looked up how to get rid of. Although I don't understand how V1 is harder to use? :\ When I started way back on even the LL V1, I got over the learning curve pretty quick. It could all just be personal experiences in that, however and that is simply immeasurable where these topics are concerned. Since two people may have different abilities or find different presentations easier for them.

I also don't see how any of this makes me a die hard. I just want things to -work- and that was why I complained. I'm thankful for the additions to V1 users since it seems that is where I am stuck for now. I just don't appreciate the overall attitude. Like I said I understand there are rotten eggs in the bunch, I just hope people are mature enough to see beyond them and remain politely civil like adults. Everyone needs to stop being such jerks to eachother on here; both sides. If the Firestorm staff is bothered by the "lol sucks" comments they can delete them quietly or ignore them. I give them credit to be big enough to do so. The rest of us with decency can lead by example despite exposure to the ones without. If people take the time to propose complaints beyond that, then well, give them the courtesy that they gave the rest of us by not being like the tactless few.

ok I'm rewriting my comment as rereading ti I found some things to be abit childish, yes I am a hard core V1 fan but its for the layout I don't mind updates and all and agree people need to state what it is about the viewer they hate and not that it sucks, I agree with the others in here that you shouldn't take out on everyone just cause some of the people are rude to you, there are others here who appreciate all the hard work you guys put in and yes I will admit I hated the firestorm beta, I have seen a handful not much but a hand full who used it back when ti was beta, I still don't see many since the beta did piss off alot of people, me being one of the few disappointed in ti, but that was the beta. People do need to realize that betas are not the official thing its the test to see what all bugs need fix what all needs to be put in I will be trying the new firestorm.Do I want to see phoenix go, no I don't,but can I do anything to stop that no. SO there isn't any reason to cry over spilled milk.I do think some people are getting alittle over the rude meter in here and the way I see if they hate it that much then why continue going on sl at all, why not just leave? sure I could complain, I mean when I tried the beta I had a few things I didn't like, I didn't think it was setup like phoenix but that was the beta, I thought the words were to small to read, that it hurt my eyes to try, ti was laggy but thats probably my computer, I did think things needed to rez faster, but that was it other then that it was nicely built for a beta and a friend reminded me it was just a beta it wasn't fully released yet and now that ti is I'm gonna give ti another shot, as its worth it and what do we really have to lose, people need to remember its just a GAME, this is not real life it is not a matter of life or death if LL kills off V1 your gonna be ok when it is gone. So why not try something new try to learn how ti works its not gonna kill ya and no one is forcing you to switch over now.Its a choice and if you choose not to go firestorm ok, but don't bitch to the creators about how you think it suck they have enough to deal with with out dealing with hearing people complain over nothing that will help the viewer out, if you hate something about ti then state what you think can change so that it might be or they will explain why it can't happen.Firestorm will one day probably be the new phoenix I mean I know more and more of my friends are going to it, and each day I do see a little more firestorm over the phoenix and as one friend said its better to get ti now and start getting use to it then to wait till the last minute.

It is fine to *dislike* firestorm. It is fine to *complain* about firestorm. Those I don't care about. I do care about people having ignorant or ill informed preconceptions and using that as a basis to rant against people that use a viewer (all firestorm users are elitests and such). I dont say *all* phoenix people are die hards, but some are, and some do have fanboyistic vendettas against people that use other viewers to the point that its irrational. I do not hate or dislike phoenix users. I dislike the ones that say firestorm needs to be canceled, the ones threatening to leave SL because they dislike a UI. The ones with performance issues, those can be computer issues, or issues with LL code. Not all the reasons Firestorm or phoenix refuses to work are because of the viewer though.

V1 was confusing when i first came onto SL, i learned it over a period of about a week for everything. it only became easy after using it for months. It is the same with firestorm.

It is fine to want it to work, i know firestorm isnt perfect. But there are better ways to do it then coming into a blog and going off about it. Why was the first comment on a blog post about phoenix something bashing firestorm? I bet over half the comments on this post will be people bashing firestorm.

Honestly? The reason the first comment was a complaint was possibly because of the way the "Phoenix is not our focus, be THANKFUL you got this at all" attitude was delivered. I mean, I'm not saying they can't do that, it's their blog and I understand what you've said about the "lol sucks" people. However, that probably raised heckles on a few people since it sorta comes off as rude and intolerant; especially for those who haven't been part of the whole clash between viewer users.

People threatening to leave over a UI simply on preference is silly. There's other viewers out there. Now people saying they'll have to leave based on functionality of ALL viewers in the V2/3 system and not being able to use it based on whatever limitation, that's unfortunate and a reality LL is approaching with these updates. There will, inevitably, be people who can't keep up and will have to quit and it's very sad. Not saying it's Firestorm's fault (it's not), but that's going to be a complaint that pops up everywhere from here on out.

I think people complain on the blog rather than the Jira or anywhere else because they feel this is a more approachable forum. The Jira is very official and technical looking so I don't think they would go there when the front-page is here and commenting is far faster. I'm not saying these are necessarily -good- excuses but that's possibly the basic reasons people comment here at all.

I've been informed that they're in the process of trying to make things easier like phoenix, but I don't see why they can't do something as simple as reskin it so the viewer "buttons" are words rather then images.they've already added a custom "Firestorm" button to the bar, so it seems they've already gotten the coding all figured out, right?

RANDOM COMMENT ABOUT VIEWER BUGS AND HOW ONE VIEWER IS BETTER THAN ANOTHER, OR HOW ONE VIEWER SHOULD NOT BE ABANDONED AND THAT IT SHOULD LAST FOREVER DESPITE BEING RENDERED INCOMPATIBLE WITH SERVER CODE, BECAUSE NONE OF US CAN SEEM TO READ A BLOG POST WITHOUT EXPRESSING THE SAME OPINIONS OVER AND OVER AGAIN ON EACH VIEWER ANNOUNCEMENT.

This is far from the first major change the SL viewer has gone through. I don't suppose anyone commenting here knows what LL's viewer looked like before it had Voice chat and the Dazzle interface. Fewer likely know what the first public Beta viewer looked like, or even the "lesser green" v1.0.0 viewer.

Yeah. I've gone through all of them. My current account may only be 4 years old but I've been tinkering with SL since its infancy. It's no point of pride but I have indeed been involved in SL stuff since it first went public--has it been nearly a decade already? Wow. It's funny yet also a little baffling to watch so many people complain that things are getting worse when they've actually hardly ever been better.

Ever since the first relatively-stable-and-secure Third Party Viewers came out (Dale Glass, Nicholaz, et al) I've hardly ever touched LL's official client outside troubleshooting purposes. Sometimes I actually miss the days when one of the worst problems one could face is to see the SL homepage with a bunch of Linden Apes "banging on things."

All this moaning over the umpteenth viewer change.. as if it's a new deal or something. Yeah the V2 interface started out a sheer scene of horror. But look how far it's come already: Firestorm brought the pie menu back, among so many other things that went missing. So many changes, even, that LL acknowledged their mistakes and began rectifying them at their usual slow pace. Now Viewer3 is looking like a recovering sick patient, which is relatively good.

Considering how ancient and cluttered the V1 codebase ultimately became, I'd say it's about darn time LL redid the whole thing and started from scratch. Yes, the drastically and wildly different interface was a huge mistake on their part. But again, they're correcting it. Quite arguably, with Firestorm paving the way.

My machine is about to have its seventh birthday. Firestorm is slower, yes, but far more stable than Phoenix. I gladly sacrifice a little bit of performance to gain a comparatively smoother (albeit lower) framerate and the comfort that I'm not going to crash if I look at a prim the wrong way.

I've always appreciated the few yet brave and generous programmers who donate so much their time and effort to provide a superior Viewer to the SL userbase. The Firestorm Team is only different in that their dedication goes far above and way beyond what most would do with their spare time.

I for one find the candor of the post on the blog about this to be refreshing. Quite simply, the Phoenix team is focusing their work on Firestorm. That's the viewer they want to use and develop. If you wish to use Phoenix anyway, then great. If you decide to switch to another viewer, that's fine too. Whining because that's what the dev team is doing in creating a totally free viewer seems kind of silly to me, but I guess some like to whine.

I love Phoenix and find firestorm and the new LL viewer very user UN friendly I do belong to the in world support group and they are very helpful.I refer people to them all the time.I do see a lot of folks there talking about viewer problems and it seems that mostly they get told they're doing it wrong....if so many are doing it wrong doen't that say something about the uasablity of the viewer? Maybe it's time to rethink who really uses SL and why.People come to SL to have fun not to stress for weeks over how they can use the stuff.I tried the advice in the vids on "fixing" my firestorm but any relog starts me back at the same old look.I am not a computer expert please don't tell me I have to go to this or that folder in my computer to fix stuff I never had to with Phoenix.The Phoenix Team has done an awesome job and needs to be applauded for all their hard work.Listen to us here we don't like firestorm find it laggy and worse hard to install and use.

V1 is bloated codebase, huh?Mesh is to blame for the slow rendering, huh? My calc says that 10fps slowdown of 35fps (comparison between Cool VL and FS "official") is somewhat 30%...

It's like going to a shoe mall and just before you enter you seeing a huge sign...30% Prices Increaseask on the info deck for more details

So you go to the info deck and ask what this is all about and they start advertising the qualities of their new product - how the new shoes are made of eco materials, how they breathe and they are oh so shiny, easy to maintain, how they are the bright future and so on.So you get a demo pair to try in the store and instead of just walking around in the store for half an hour, you decide to take a full spin around the mall... few times, almost 2 months trial period!And it turns out, their materials look just cheap (the messed up LL code base), their "breathe" effect makes you feel cold (the whole interface mess and customizations), their shininess as it turns to be not so great as it has bad sides (the famous mesh that is pain to build/edit), they cause you blister and last but not least - they cost 30% more!

And phrases that sound more like "well we have few pairs left from our old fashion line, but you should be THANKFUL to get them" - oh well, don't try that kind of attitude on your own customers...

Something I forgot to ask in my previous post. Would some Phoenix/Firestorm team representative please answer my question - why did the viewer became SO slower in the Firestorm Official/Mesh, compared to the Firestorm Beta (non-mesh)?

Look at the comparison - adding mesh to V1 takes has around 6fps cost (of 41) and that's almost 15% slowdown.Now if you look in the comparison between Firestorm official and beta - that's 14fps difference, which is 36% slowdown.Or for those who are bad in maths - the slowdown of having mesh in V2 codebase is over double than having mesh in V1 codebase.

Can someone from the dev team give clear answer why the official release felt the impact of mesh so badly?Thanks!

(And please, the imaginary code "guru"'s that are totally unrelated to the Firestorm team to keep it quiet - it's a question to a dev team representative, not you!)

I love Phoenix and find firestorm and the new LL viewer very user UN friendly

Likely because it is what you are used to. After using firestorm for a while I'm used to it and find phoenix ugly and cluttered. When I was a noob i found v1 viewers fairly hard to learn, i had to get help from others to do things. With v2 i didnt.

I do see a lot of folks there talking about viewer problems and it seems that mostly they get told they're doing it wrong....if so many are doing it wrong doen't that say something about the uasablity of the viewer?

Phoenix/Firestorm viewer support is supposed to be for talking about viewer problems and getting them fixed. That is what the group is there for. And often times they are doing something wrong that causes something to mess up. Not always, but often. And it is not just firestorm issues, i see a LOT of phoenix problems as well

Listen to us here we don't like firestorm find it laggy and worse hard to install and use.

First, don't claim to speak for everyone, that is an annoying habit that not even I do. I might dislike phoenix, but I dont pretend everyone likes it. I like firestorm and so do many others. Some prefer phoenix, and thats fine, but some do not. I still dont understand how people find firestorm laggy, on my computer and pretty much everyone I talk to they say it is less laggy than phoenix. it certainly is on my computer. As for installing...it uses the same install process as phoenix does, so i do not see how its hard to install, set up is also not too hard. Use varies. If you use it for 5 minutes and expect to be an instant expert then yes, its hard to use. but i *highly* doubt you learned viewer 1 interface in 5 minutes either. Pretty much anything you can do in phoenix you can do in firestorm now.

Not bloated, but it IS out of date. Linden labs hasn't updated viewer 1 in almost 3 years. It cannot support all the new features out now on the grid and will keep falling further behind.

Mesh is to blame for the slow rendering, huh?

Interesting you didn't use or compare singularity or the phoenix mesh viewer in your stats. Those would likely be slower as well than phoenix. And FPS isn't everything: the max you can get is 45 FPS, because that is the SIM LIMIT. even of your PC can run more FPS, the sim will only send 45 FPS to you. 30 FPS is a good framerate, even 15 is passable.

And tyou analogy about shoes is somewhat dishonest, since you are failing to take into account that the old fashion line has stayed the same for three years, and has gotten soaked in water from a leaky roof (server updates adding features v1 doesnt have). Lets not forget that the newer line is still being made and improved, while the older line is sitting rotting on shelves. its better to some because they like the design, and for some it fits better, but all in all it is not that great either.

Karl, you're absolutely right. I'll stop whining and switch to Cool VL Viewer now. Seems it does have most of the features I can't live without, so I'll probably be happier with it. And - lo and behold! - I installed it, ran it, and everything worked fine. No need to tweak any obscure preference to remove any graphical glitch or annoyance, it 'just worked'… And I'm on a Mac, which isn't even officially supported by it! Wow! Been a long time since it happened with any viewer I tried…

Just to be sure there isn't any misunderstanding: I do appreciate the work of the Phoenix/Firestorm team a lot, and I want to give them all a huge thank you for their hard work and great support, and another big thank you for allowing me to discover Cool VL Viewer, which I probably would have overlooked otherwise. The only thing I regret is the choice they've made to try to get anything good out of this V2/V3 thing, which is - in my very humble opinion, but corroborated with my own little experience - a bad one.

Imprudence is still on 1.4 codebase. you would be better off with singularity if you *have* to have another v1 viewer. I should also point out imprudence team is (at a glacial pace) releasing a V2 based viewer called Kokua.

V2/3 users to all others: We are the Borg – You will be assimilated – Resistance is futile!

That said, I do use both FS and Phoenix because there are things in both of them I like that the other doesn't have. But, in general, Phoenix works better for me and things render better (on my system).

If mesh was the only issue I wouldn't care what viewer I used because I'm not impressed with mesh and think of it as a large step backward.

When I say Phoenix works better for me, I don't mean where the buttons are or having things moved around and renamed. It simply works better and faster on my computer. That's not to say that FS doesn't work better and faster for someone else.

Arguing over which is better is like arguing over what wine to serve with dinner. It's largely a matter of personal choice, and I don't drink wine, so I don't care – I'll have water, thanks.

Serith I'm not gonna lie, my phoenix viewer is slower now that it went mesh,mesh is over rated to be honest I tried on mesh things and found it to be horrible sure it might be great for outfits but only outfits hair I tried look like a blob of clay when ti fully rezed,but thats my view on mesh. As for bugs and lag and problems with viewers, I agree they have more lag now then ever.I don't see as many firestorm users as you say you do, but I don't go to the same areas you do either, rarely do RPers use firestorm, as a matter of fact when of the one very few rpers that did use it tried to get others in on it there was more people stating they didn't like firestorm cause its nothing like phoenix at all its just v2 set up that they tried to say was just like phoenix, or the words are too small, its to laggy, it doesn't work on their computer, they couldn't figure out the manual or how ti worked even with the wiki.

I understand your getting frustrated with the people complaining and people do need to take into mind that it takes alot of work to get viewers up and running and not everything can be perfect and yes they should go to Jira or the other support groups you have set up to state problems,I don't hear alot of complaints about phoenix honestly,and sadly I see more people going to other viewers because they feel that their not getting heard, or that they have no choice anymore, or that they feel they've been wrong, and thats how people are.

Can't please everyone and I know you know that, but it feels like you getting more and more ready to snap and just remember to take everything with a grain of salt when hearing a complaint you know your viewer is good and it runs good,alot of ti is just panicked people.

I also forgot to add in my post, not everyone has the same computer mind you, some computers really can't run FS and FS runs horrible on some like it does on mine.Yes that is a computer thing not a problem you can fix, but saying oh it runs fine on mine and the people I talk to, doesn't mean that for everyone and that gets some people really frustrated since not everyone can afford nice computers.

I have used all the viewers (can appreciate what LL's V3 has done -- I like the drag and drop icons --and what Firestorm is doing and getting better) but the lack of functionality in both makes my life in SL so much more arduous. Firestorm had become my default viewer and I was liking it well enough -- gotten use to it, but yesterday when I went back to the New Updated Phoenix, it was an . . . .OMG . . . moment remembering how awesome Phoenix really is. Phoenix was the best viewer ever made for SL with a depth of functionality that just made the game so much fun and easy.

Henri Beauchamp, you have my deepest appreciation for breathing a little bit more life into this awesome viewer.

Firestorm people -- keep going -- we all want the same things and it can get there . . . in time.

Actually - IF some next version of the Phoenix had all current Phoenix features and all current Firestorm features under its typical Phoenix UI with its many different skins(even if this required to use V3 code to create it), then I'd immediately turn back from Firestorm towards Phoenix. And I think that I would be not the only one. :)After all, even the "Phoenix Mode" of the Firestorm UI is nothing else than just a compromise (though a good one). It still looks too similar to a V2/V3-UI.

According to my experience, the V1- UI (which the Phoenix UI is based on) is the most user-friendly, most intuitive and most thought-through UI of all SL viewers I've tried, and I would always prefer a viewer with V1-UI over a viewer with V2-UI, provided that both of them had the same features.

Mesh has only been on the grid for like a month, you have to give it some time for people to get used to it and for quality to go up. When sculpties first came out they looked awful too..most of them...but gradually got better.

As for bugs and lag and problems with viewers, I agree they have more lag now then ever.

Lag is not just a viewer issue, it can also be a server issue on LL's side, or can be issues with your computer, if you run a download in the background or have other net accessing programs that can slow SL down, the connection can be slow from the ISP. Viewers lagged just as much in the past.

I don't see as many firestorm users as you say you do, but I don't go to the same areas you do either

I see about 30 percent firestorm use. The club i tend to frequent is higher, around 60 percent, but that is an exception. Places where 90 percent of people use phoenix are also pretty rare. Going to telehubs, or popular clubs mostly tends to lean toward what i usually see, 50 percent phoenix, 30 percent firestorm, 10 percent LL viewer, and 10 percent other viewers.

rarely do RPers use firestorm

I rp and i use firestorm, for RPing i see little difference between phoenix and firestorm

as a matter of fact when of the one very few rpers that did use it tried to get others in on it there was more people stating they didn't like firestorm cause its nothing like phoenix at all its just v2 set up that they tried to say was just like phoenix

firestorm is quite different from v2. that said it is not a phoenix clone either. No one ever said firestorm would be like phoenix, though there are ways to make it more like phoenix.

or the words are too small

I am visually impaired in real life, i have 20/60 vision, and I can see firestorms fonts fine. You can also change firestorms fonts or the sizes of them.

its to laggy

Usually its because they expect to use firestorm immediately instead of waiting for the inventory to load. Once inventory loads there is much less lag. Of course inventory loading requires using it for more than 2 minutes. Firestorm generally lags less than phoenix did

it doesn't work on their computer

Only computers firestorm will not work on are non SSE2 ones, and any computer since 2005 will be SSE2 compatible. Otherwise its likely settings that need to be adjusted.

they couldn't figure out the manual or how ti worked even with the wiki.

The wiki is actually well written, it likely was an isue of "i dont want to learn this right now"

I am not frustrated with complaints, i am frustrated with useless complaints and people hating firestorm just because its not phoenix.

I don't hear alot of complaints about phoenix honestly

in the support group there are plenty, many of the complaints and problems people have there are with phoenix not working right. yeah you will see firestorm users there too, but phoenix is not problem free. firestorm users accept we might have problems, phoenix users seem to think phoenix is perfect.

and sadly I see more people going to other viewers because they feel that their not getting heard, or that they have no choice anymore, or that they feel they've been wrong, and thats how people are.

I havent seen all that many going to other viewers yet. the ones screeching for the devs to cancel firestorm and only work on phoenix will be ignored because they have been saying for a year this is what they will do. they have choices, but v1 will not be a fun thing to maintain in the future.

it feels like you getting more and more ready to snap

Some people deserve to get snapped at. i mean its not my fault they wont listen and act so shocked the are pulling back on phoenix like they have been saying for months. then go off at the devs for doing what they have been saying they are going to do

I hate dictators of any kind!being told by LL that we have to use the flawed V2 viewer makes my blood boil!... the peoplel at phoenixhave done a fantastic job since emerald died and they improved the sl experience no endok so they have to move with the times! but the thing is!.. i just can't get used to firestorm!.. i feel awkward, its like starting over again!.. i want my phoenix to live forever!!.. god i hate the lindens!!

not everyone has the same computer mind you, some computers really can't run FS and FS runs horrible on some like it does on mine.

Only computers that cannot run firestorm are non SSE2 PCs, which anything after 2005 should be able to run SSE2.

Yes that is a computer thing not a problem you can fix, but saying oh it runs fine on mine and the people I talk to, doesn't mean that for everyone and that gets some people really frustrated since not everyone can afford nice computers.

I talk to a lot of people. Some people have issues, but usually they are solved if they give it some time. Some are just impatient and expect it RIGHT NOW and cant wait long enough to adjust settings or update things on their computer. Also, a computer doesnt have to be "nice". My computer is not new, or top of the line, but it runs firestorm fine. And a decent computer can be had for 500 dollars

Serith mines from 2009 and it has a hard item with firestorm, but to be honest, I'm leaving the phoenix/firestorm viewer. Its nothing to do with the viewer but how your handling these comments, I'm sorry.I'm glad you do have a answer for everything and that you answered some questions, but phoenix/firestorm is no longer the viewer for me.

@ Serith: I am afraid that your notions concerning computer issues are utterly incorrect.There ARE modern configurations which can cause severe issues - even for top of the line PCs.

Not really. The only computers incapable of running Firestorm are non SSE2 computers. Some PCs might have a harder time with some things but still run it, or need tweaks, but people are not willing to take the time to tweak settings. I fail to see why v1 code would work but not v3 code, especially a V1 viewer with mesh code brought over from v3. i think they just tolerate more form it because they are used to the interface, or have a system conflict, in which case its a computer issue, not a viewer one, but most are still fixable.

so youre computer is 2 years younger than mine, but cant run it? who knows what the issue ism but it should be capable of running it.

I'm leaving the phoenix/firestorm viewer. Its nothing to do with the viewer but how your handling these comments, I'm sorry.

I should point out that I am not a developer of phoenix or firestorm, but i am a strong proponent of firestorm. Leaving any viewer is your choice, but i doubt its because of me. Chances are you were already going to leave because they aren't keeping v1 around forever. usually im nice but geez, some people need a reality check and need to stop the irrational v2 hatred.

I'm glad you do have a answer for everything and that you answered some questions, but phoenix/firestorm is no longer the viewer for me.

Answer for everything? no, but for many things yes. Most people are just stubborn, and cling to v1 with no reason other then the UI. Chances are they will put a more v1 like UI in firestorm eventually. But there are other viewers out there too that might serve you better.

Sorry Serith - I have some personal experience in the matter. Contradicting me like that gets you one response: Wrong.

There are hardware configurations which make running Firestorm (and Second Life in general) quite difficult if not impossible. This is even AFTER tweaking.

The absolute worst part is that one cannot fully narrow down exactly which combinations cause these issues. It may be as simple as the motherboard one uses. it may be as complex as the way in which one's GPU, CPU and other hardware interact while Second Life itself is being used.

One particular friend of mine was running a PC designed after 2005 which was a pure AMD system, running a bleeding edge setup complete with AMD's answer to SLI.

Of all the clients out there ... only LL's official one worked. And even then for short bursts, properly tweaked.

Your attitude here is not helping at whatsoever. Your word is not law and your opinion concerning usability is woefully misinformed.

Nowhere have I stated that these issues are limited to one codebase either - do yourself a favor and don't infer what is not explicitly stated.

In closing? These issues have to do with the way in which the clients (all of them) were initially coded. The hardware issues occur ONLY with SL clients. This means that these issues, while related to hardware, are in fact in the base code of SL itself.

They have been around for some time as well.

Your further input concerning this (being corrected on a viewpoint wherein you believe yourself to be correct, despite others' experience to the contrary) is no longer required.

Sorry Serith - I have some personal experience in the matter. Contradicting me like that gets you one response: Wrong.

Typical. You have issues so everyone else must. Most people have no problems with firestorm. A small minority do. if you think otherwise, it is you that are wrong.

There are hardware configurations which make running Firestorm (and Second Life in general) quite difficult if not impossible. This is even AFTER tweaking.

This is true, but v2 doesnt run much worse than v1. most are just bitching because of the UI and trying to use technical reasons to justify not using it.

Your attitude here is not helping at whatsoever. Your word is not law and your opinion concerning usability is woefully misinformed.

My attitude? Like the attitude I and most others have been getting for months concerning our using a v2 viewer? I never said my word is law, however I see complaining about firestorm on a blog post about phoenix as stupid. When half the comments on something are bashing another viewer then yeah, it pisses me off. ANd some people cant use firestorm, but some is not most.

Your further input concerning this (being corrected on a viewpoint wherein you believe yourself to be correct, despite others' experience to the contrary) is no longer required.

I can give my input where ever I damn well please. I do not need permission from you. Some people cant use firestorm. Some is not most, and pretending no one or even most people have issues with it is dishonest. Whetehr someone uses firestorm or phoenix is of no concern to me, go ahead and use phoenix til LL cuts it off, btu stop all the firestrm bashing. If people keep bashing it then expect blowback. And for all the "bad experiences" i hear from people on here, i can give at least 3 for each of these bad ones.

Serith I had no intention of leaving phoenix, till I read the blog and the comments and I find them unprofessional, developer or not your blog is part of the phoenix image.

I see no reason to be professional. i don't work as part of support or the developers. I am a beta tester which means i am one of the ones that tries making sure the viewer you use (firestorm or phoenix) works properly. I have run into bugs most dont even think can even exist in an SL viewer in the betas, but i constructively tell whats wrong and they get fixed. In addition, if they are going to censor, they should censor both sides. Censor me? fine, but what about the V1 blowhards on the past blog posts calling for them to cancel firestorm and focus on phoenix? their comments are just as offensive, and v1 partisans can and do get just as insulting.

Understandable, but that doesn't give anyone the right to get down as low as them, when you snap at them and like you have been then you are no better then them. You made this blog About phoenix viewer, which means this blog is a image of phoenix view in of itself,by acting how you have does weigh on some of the peoples minds. Not saying its right to insult,cause its not I do think some are taking this way out then it needs.BUT your being just as childish as them, your singling out every V1 user just cause bad experience.I'm not saying at all one side is right and one side isn't I think both sides are equally to blame as it takes two to start a argument.This will be all I have to say on this matter.

Serith ...your attitude is such that you are being an utter disservice to the rest of us with a firm grasp of reality.

What firm grasp of reality? You guys are the ones clinging to an old viewer crying because they aren't supporting it much longer, even though they have been saying they would do this for months now. Firestorm bashing is not necessary but several see the need to do it on every blog post. That tends to piss me off. If they dont use firestorm fine, their comments about how it sucks arent needed either.

I can and WILL tell you that your responses concerning usability are no longer required: They are not. Simple as that.

Just like peoples comments about firestorm aren't on a blog post about phoenix are no longer required either. Simple as that.

The only "typical" part of this exchange has been your utter dishonesty and inability to read and respond to what is being directly stated.

PSSHT, I am being honest. i dont have any issues with firestorm, and neither do most that I talk to. Thats not dishonest, thats a fact. The ones saying "phoenix mesh works great, but singularity and firestorm dont" when singularity uses the same code phoenix does, are being dishonest.

I am finished with you - once again, your further responses are not required, nor are they being asked for.

I dont care of you are 'finished" with anything. I have the right to speak my mind. No one asked for any responces on this blog, yet most of them are just bashing firestorm. That was not called or asked for either.

No one cares HOW MANY people are able to use Second Life (or cannot for that matter) and no one cares how many good experiences you can come up with.

No of course not, because we have to mindlessly bash any viewer we dont like.

ONE person having issues and being told off by the likes of YOU, instead of helping them or otherwise tracking down the source of the issue ... is one too many.

*sigh* the people here anrent reporting issues. They are giving vague accounts of slowness and lag, or they dont like v2 based viewers. If someone has a problem, i dont care if they are on phoenix or firestorm, i would try to help, but then again, the blog is not the place for that, they have inwolrd support for that.

Some "beta-tester".

You apparently are ignorant of what beta testers do. We are the ones that use the viewers for weeks to get any bugs out. We are not support and we dont deal with peoples problems, we try to find them before people ever see them.

If you cannot maintain some level of professionalism or at the very LEAST listen to people whose experiences differ from yours ... You have no place responding to others whatsoever.

I am not an employee, i see no point in being professional. People just whining to whine on a post that has nothing to do with whats being whined about (lets whine about firestorm in a phoenix post!) are annoying. I do listen to people who have different experiences, doesnt mean i cant call out what i see as BS which is what many firestorm haters seem to be full of. Its fine to not use a viewer, but dont bash it just because YOU dislike it. I dont bash phoenix.

"What firm grasp of reality? You guys are the ones clinging to an old viewer crying because they aren't supporting it much longer,"

Well now - you had to hit what pisses ME off ...

Know what that is?

Morons who do NOT know how to read.

NOWHERE have I "bashed" firestorm you twit.

Now then ... at the risk of this being pulled ... fuck off you useless twat and do NOT come back until you can actually READ and COMPREHEND what you have read.

Moderators ... if you need to censor the language, that is quite fine. I ask however, that you let the rest of this remain up so as to ensure that anyone further who cannot push past their one track mind understands that their failure to read and comprehend what they have read is intolerable and IS the problem.

Oh yes, Serith?

I am ignorant of not a single thing dear child: you puled the beta-tester card out as if that was supposed to be worth something.

Well now - you had to hit what pisses ME off ...Know what that is?Morons who do NOT know how to read.NOWHERE have I "bashed" firestorm you twit.

You have the delusion that you and the other pheonix users here complaining have a "grasp of reality". then cry because I tell you the real reality. Your viewer is dying. Move on to something else. I didn't say you specifically bashed firestorm, maybe you should do some of that reading you advise me to do. I said you guys, plural, meaning others in the thread, but not limited to you. As i said Firestorm bashing is not necessary but several see the need to do it on every blog post. . No where did that single you out, being such a "reader" i would have expected you to see that.

Now then ... at the risk of this being pulled ... fuck off you useless twat and do NOT come back until you can actually READ and COMPREHEND what you have read.

Useless how? All the bitching and moaning people on here is useless. You want to be useful? File JIRAs, join support or beta testers or even the devs if you can code. At least I do something constructive with my SL time instead of bitching in a blog. Also, I can read and comprehend just fine.

I ask however, that you let the rest of this remain up so as to ensure that anyone further who cannot push past their one track mind understands that their failure to read and comprehend what they have read is intolerable and IS the problem.

I can read and comprehend just fine. I was reading and comprehending the complaints that were largely useless, or pointing them in a constructive way to make criticisms. I dont have a one track mind, but i am sick to death of v1 partisans denigrating v2 and firestorm. its old already. like phoenix? fine. but stop bitching about other viewers they likely havent used 1/10th as much as i have. In addition, many of the phoenix complainers seem to have reading comprehension issues too, namely the original blog post where they say why they are cutting back phoenix support. Or the months and months they have been telling people "we will be focusing on firestorm once we get phoenix with mesh out" like..oh..over a month ago? Seems im not the only one that needs to learn how to read and comprehend.

I am ignorant of not a single thing dear child: you puled the beta-tester card out as if that was supposed to be worth something.

No, you just sound like an arrogant, condescending douche . You do not know my age, so calling me a child is uncalled for. You seem to be confusing me with support, acting like i have to help people with their problems. I don't, thats why im not in support. beta testers find bugs and performance issues with viewers. Saying firestorm is buggy and has tons of issues is basically telling me im doing something wrong, but instead of being specific is vague. And it is, ive been using firestorm since the beginning of the year but i also had to test this mesh phoenix when it was a beta for the testers. I have a lot of experience with both viewers, most complaining do not. I am patient, but not when it comes to people blasting something they have comparatively little experience with, or trying to pass off BS FUD against the viewer that is wrong.

Firestorm isn't bad. But, I prefer using phoenix. I'll agree that making phoenix compatible with latest code from Linden Lab will be harder and harder to do. I've seen how much code went into this viewer. I was doing self compiles of it throughout the whole time phoenix first got mesh. Which was back in september. My opinion is though that (And no offense to jessica I got nothing but love for ya) But, it seems when she posts something on the site everyone jumps. Not a bad thing. But, Jessica and her team is just trying to do a good thing. We could be stuck using linden lab's viewer 3. But, thanks to Firestorm we have options as we do with phoenix. I think we all should be greatful that Jessica and her team has continued updates for phoenix. They honestly don't need too anymore. But, I am friggin glad they have. I myself am not a huge fan of Firestorm. But, I have said this more then once to Jessica and her team that they deserve some type of award for their hard dedication to Phoenix and Firestorm. No other developer has done that kind of rework to the user interface of V2/V3. Although I might not be a fan of Firestorm But it's still an awesome alternative to v3. It acts way more like v1 then any other v2/v3 viewer made by other devs. I do have to say though I think linden lab needs to work on their bugs. I'm not blaming the Phoenix devs here for the issues I've had with Firestorm. I blame Linden Lab. The Phoenix Devs have done their best to make it stable. Which I give them props for. Thanks for your hard dedication guys!

You actually never stated what viewer you used. At all. Instead you were just focused on being as condescending as possible to prove me "wrong". I cannot read and comprehend if you use firestorm or if its the only thing you use if you never typed it out in the first place.

In short? if you're going to respond to a user of Firestorm as if they are a part of those 'bashing' it (thus accusing said user of bashing it) ... you don't need to be responding.

Again with *your* reading comprehension issues. I never directly accused you of bashing firestorm. i said others in the thread have, and in previous blog posts. Apparently english isn't your native language, or you think "they" means you specifically. Because I used they, referring to those that were bashing on firestorm, not necessarily you.

Why argue over a viewer that is being made in good faith? Let's not argue here please? If you don't like Firestorm/Phoenix then why continue using it and blogging here? I can understand you putting your opinions but when it becomes argumentative and people start cussing it's no longer an opinion based discussion. It's simple if you don't like Firestorm/Phoenix then why blog or use the software? Just to bring everyone else down? Drama? Ugh, just drop it please? All of you. I have nothing else to say nor am I agreeing with anyone. I think you get my point.

cause nexy, some people like to argue and feel better then everyone else, idk why but they just do I think if your not a support member or a developer YOU SHOULDN'T TALK DOWN TO OTHER like you know something.I think its gotten out of hand, but everyone has to have the last word sadly :\ oh well the world still turns round and round

Ah, but I DID state which client I use Serith - way back in my very first comment.

My reading and comprehension does not need work Serith.

And I quote: "You have the delusion that you and the other pheonix users here complaining have a "grasp of reality"."

So then - you lumped me in without once double checking your facts. Your tone, choice of words and attitude from that point forward were clear enough to reason that you were accusing ME of being part of those bashing Firestorm.

Frankly, I do not care WHO has bashed it. You want to vent about it? Save it for those actually doing so.

As for responding to me: Perhaps you'd get more polite responses if you left your baggage at the door kiddo (and no, your physical age has nothing to do with it).

I am going to miss the Phoenix viewer. It was so user friendly. I guess I will be forced to one day migrate to the Firestorm viewer. I do have at least on positive thing to say about the Firestorm,all images seem sharper. If the Firestorm team could change the way you're notified of incoming im's it would be a little more acceptable.I know you're probably saying no one is forcing me to use the Firestorm,but I perfer to stat with a team I trust for support issues.I am not sure why I took the time to leave this blog,cause I'm pretty sure that no one from the Phoenix/Firestorm team reads this junk,lol.

After another attmept to try firestorm, that resulted in 4 cdt's (crashes to desktop) while fetching the inventory and trying to customize the Ui, i tried Niran's viewer, and i have to say that i can only advise any to give it a try, even in beta and even without the inbuild ao or radar. As firestorm, unistaled it (why in the hell it,s the only viewer that makes changes to registry?)and wil not even bother anymore with it, as V3 tpv, much more easy to user and running much safer are already avaiable (exedus, Dolphin, Niran's, Catnip, Marine Kelly's and perhaps a few more i dont know about). Still for now Phoenix is still the user of choice for me! Even with buggy mesh release, at least i didnt crashed once while using it!

And btw, with a win 7 64b, 12 giga ddr3, Intel 7, 1200mhz power source, nvidea gtx580 with latest drivers, 200MEGA download optical fiber connection, i ddefy all to say its due to my "Old" system that firestorm does not run well!!!

I would gladly change to Firestorm if it actually had the features I want. I see hundreds of people demanding these features but no one listens. Then they yell at us for not being willing to change. I want:

The v1 UI with all my menus and buttons in the same place. I think this is the biggest reason people won't change!

Payment, group, and tp notices in the top right or ability to put them where I want them and won't miss them.

Old search, especially old people search, I really need this as a landlord.

Radar with full feature set of Phoenix.

Persistent always fly that I don't have to re enable at each login.

True online status in profiles - this is my #1 reason for not changing viewers, I NEED this function for my work.

Showing what abilities friends have checked or unchecked.

Deliver these features and I'll be a Firestorm user. Otherwise I'll hang on to Phoenix until its dying breath. And I'm far from alone.

I would gladly change to Firestorm if it actually had the features I want. I see hundreds of people demanding these features but no one listens.

They are actually working on getting all the phoenix features into firestorm. They havent put them all in, but its because they have to rewrite the code to be v2 compatible.

Then they yell at us for not being willing to change.

I dunno who is yelling for not being willing to change. I know it is annoying when people refuse to change just because they aren't used to it. Keep using phoenix for now, but some still won't use firestorm even if it has every phoenix feature because of irrational V2 hatred.

The v1 UI with all my menus and buttons in the same place. I think this is the biggest reason people won't change!

This will never happen, sorry. They are testing out a "vintage" skin for firestorm that is even more v1 like, but it will never be exactly like viewer 1.

Payment, group, and tp notices in the top right or ability to put them where I want them and won't miss them.

Group notices and payment notices are in the top right in the firestorm release. TPs i'm pretty sure are as well.

Old search, especially old people search, I really need this as a landlord.

This is something Linden Labs is getting rid of, not the Firestorm devs. If you want to complain about old search going away, Linden Labs is the ones to go to.

Radar with full feature set of Phoenix.

Firestorm has radar, though its under the people tab for now. it does everything the phoenix radar does except tell you what viewer people are running and mark someone.

Persistent always fly that I don't have to re enable at each login.

I believe firestorm has that now. It also has a bridge flight assist that replaces a flight feather.

True online status in profiles - this is my #1 reason for not changing viewers, I NEED this function for my work.

Firestorm can show if someone is online or offline, whether its "true online status" i dunno, but usually when the profile says they are online, they are online.

Showing what abilities friends have checked or unchecked.

Firestorm has always had this. Map rights, modding objects of theirs, they can mod your objects? You have always been able to see that in firestorm. The only thing you can't do in firestorm that you can in phoenix is see if someone is set to appear online or not to you. To be honest, its something I dislike. if i dont want to be bothered in world I dont want to be bothered D=< . Basically that option is like saying "screw your privacy i need to annoy you now".

Well, I want to see in radar what viewer people are using. I also want to know if they're avoiding me or want to be left alone. Your post is exactly what irritates me. If you don't like a feature, don't use it. But you are trying to take away functions that others consider necessary to their SL for whatever reason. If a function does not break the TOS it's valid to expect and choose a viewer that uses it, even if a few people don't like it.

People keep going on about the hate for v2...I personally don't care for that UI, but have no problem with people who like and use it. My problem is that those people, who keep crying persecution, now want to take away the UI I like instead of making it work with the new technology or vice versa. I feel threatened with the loss of SL as I know and love it, of course I'm going to fight back. A lot of others are fighting back too, many of whom don't have an understanding of the technical background of UI vs under the hood coding. They want UI and features, and Phoenix has what they want, so they stay with it and hate on v2 based on the UI.

Chances are they will add it in the future, I don't see why they can't do it.

I also want to know if they're avoiding me or want to be left alone.

But they might not. The true online status is used mostly for drama. i have rarely seen anything good come of it. If they want to be left alone, they set themselves to appear offline. otherwise they just have to stay off SL because people ignore their wish to appear offline.

Your post is exactly what irritates me. If you don't like a feature, don't use it.

I don't use it. But at the same time when it comes to things like online or offline status, others will. And it becomes a case of my right to be left undisturbed in SL for whatever reason being compromised by this feature I don't use. You act as though everyone uses this feature responsibly, and they don't.

But you are trying to take away functions that others consider necessary to their SL for whatever reason.

How is seeing if someone lets you see whenever they are on vital to SL? it just causes drama most times i hear about it. If they dont affect other users privacy then sure, have all the functions you want, but when it infringes on privacy then there are issues.

If a function does not break the TOS it's valid to expect and choose a viewer that uses it, even if a few people don't like it.

So because something is not banned by the TOS it should be acceptable? The idea that someone can spy on you using the viewer is not something only a few dislike. Many dislike it.

because we have been hearing it for months and months and months and months. We get it already if people hate it.

My problem is that those people, who keep crying persecution, now want to take away the UI I like instead of making it work with the new technology or vice versa.

Actually, personally I dont care if people use phoenix. The people taking away viewer 1 are linden labs. It is getting harder to port code onto the old v1 codebase. Linden Labs is making everything more v2/v3 centric, people and viewers that dont acknowledge this fact and adapt will be left behind. They have been trying to make pheonix work with the new tech, but its just getting too hard to justify it.

I feel threatened with the loss of SL as I know and love it, of course I'm going to fight back.

i could say the same thing about my choice of viewer. But somehow when ever someone says they like v2 or a v2 based viewer they are mental or something. V1 partisans never seem to notice this and are shocked when someone actually fights back.

A lot of others are fighting back too

yes, i have run into some of those "fighting back" like the club owner that kept kicking me from his club until I used a "proper" v1 based viewer (and no other reason). Or the people who have hounded me for months to move to a v1 viewer, even though i am perfectly happy with firestorm. But v1 partisans can't deal with what they dish out. Seems like those that dislike firestorm want the right to dump all over firestorm, but when someone points out the flaws in v1, lets just ignore them and call them morons and cuss them out.

many of whom don't have an understanding of the technical background of UI vs under the hood coding.

If they did, they would understand what the developers have been saying. It would be very hard to put a v1 interface on v2. its possible maybe (not an exact v1 replica, but close). but then it becomes the" I feel threatened with the loss of SL as I know and love it, of course I'm going to fight back." thing from firestorm users. Firestorm is a different viewer with different users, why should we have to adapt to V1 people who refuse to change anything?

They want UI and features, and Phoenix has what they want, so they stay with it and hate on v2 based on the UI.

People that hate on a viewer and refuse to use it based on how it *looks* are not worth catering to. The features are being ported over, and some "missing features" you mentioned are in firestorm already.

serith I don't see why you feel you must answer ever post that annoys you. Your NOT a support member, your NOT developer, yet you feel the need to talk down and treat everyone here like their all idiots and your the only person that knows whats going on when your not.Look if your tired of it then stop reading, stop replying and just stop all together, its just degrading to watch you reply to things that don't need it or asked for it.Which you'll probably reply to mine on parts that don't need it just to try and have a reason to get the last word.If you haven't notice for a while most of the post have been about you and how rude you are and stuff.

serith I don't see why you feel you must answer ever post that annoys you.

The same reason you and others have for answering me.

Your NOT a support member, your NOT developer, yet you feel the need to talk down and treat everyone here like their all idiots and your the only person that knows whats going on when your not.

And? I am not a developer. I could be support, but dont want to. So I help with beta testing. When it comes to reasons why firestorm wont have certain things, the devs have stated why, i am just repeating what they say. I dont think everyone is an idiot, but i do call out BS. besides, none of the people bashing firestorm are developers or support either, but yet its offensive to tell them to shut up, on the other hand someone that likes v2, nope, they have to be quiet.

Look if your tired of it then stop reading, stop replying and just stop all together, its just degrading to watch you reply to things that don't need it or asked for it.

No one asked for any comment on this blog at all. IN the last posts i wasn't "degrading" at all. I simply stated facts.

Which you'll probably reply to mine on parts that don't need it just to try and have a reason to get the last word.

i don't care about having the last word, but I have as much right to reply as you or anyone else

If you haven't notice for a while most of the post have been about you and how rude you are and stuff.

Some were yes. In places was i rude? Yep. Then again some were rude back even worse than I was. The reason Im being called out is because I am a v2 supporter and telling people clinging to it what they don't want to hear. This one isnt as bad as some of the previous blogposts concerning phoenix vs firestorm though, but the fact stands the v1 people were the ones that threw the first crap, i responded and then all the people get oh so offended. Again, V1 lovers can't seem to take what they dish out. Its fine to like phoenix, but stop bashing other viewers.

Drama!! My god you guys are like little children. ROFL. I think everyone has a right to be upset about how they feel. But, I mean come on. This is getting childish. Serith I understand your point as I understand everyone else's. But serith you don't have to be right. Nor are you going to be right in everyone else's eyes. We all have opinions and this is what is lovely about second life. Is we have the option of using Firestorm or using Phoenix. Choice is wonderful isn't it? If you don't like your privacy being evaded that's cool serith then Firestorm is right on the money for you mate. If you like true online status then phoenix is cool too. But, in defense of true online status serith its an lsl script that actually was created by linden lab. There are other ways if finding a users true online status. So you will never be totally protected against that sort of thing. The reason its not on the tos us becsuse its a script linden lab made. So serith don't blame phoenix for causing drama. Blame linden lab if you'd like to blame someone. Anyways, I'm done with this convo. You all have valid points. But, you don't need to argue and cuss at each other for them.

I have to agree with Nexy they have a very good point.The reason they posted in the blog was to vent that was it. There was no deep point or meaning.Everyone likes to state a opinions, no one likes having someone constantly corrected.Any rate I don't see a point into adding since it still going on and hasn't stopped after many have asked it to.

Serith I understand your point as I understand everyone else's. But serith you don't have to be right. Nor are you going to be right in everyone else's eyes.

I am right about some things and wrong about others. I can admit that much. And I know most will think I know nothing, or less than they do, because I am blunt and because I don't agree with them, thats human nature.

Is we have the option of using Firestorm or using Phoenix. Choice is wonderful isn't it?

My issue is not and hasn't been with people using phoenix, or moving phoenix people to firestorm. Its about people bashing a viewer they dont have much experience with and calling for them to cancel it (in previous posts)or just whining about it. This blog isnt the place to bash viewers. If it had been all yay phoenix mesh is out, fine, but instead it all turned to bashing firestorm. if one has constructive criticism file a JIRA.

If you don't like your privacy being evaded that's cool serith then Firestorm is right on the money for you mate.

Problem is someone with phoenix can ignore my privacy settings, regardless of what I want. I dont want to spy on other people. If I need to send them a message or notecard, i just do it, i dont need to see if they are online or not and cant honestly see a reason to see this.

But, in defense of true online status serith its an lsl script that actually was created by linden lab. There are other ways if finding a users true online status.

Yes, i am not blaming phoenix for having it per se, even if i don't like it. That said, refusing to adopt a viewer just because it doesn't have spying tools...er..."true online status", is kinda lame imo. And yes, sending a IM can also show it, but I get many more messages when i appear online than when offline to them (usually when building).

I have to agree with Nexy they have a very good point.The reason they posted in the blog was to vent that was it. There was no deep point or meaning.Everyone likes to state a opinions, no one likes having someone constantly corrected.Any rate I don't see a point into adding since it still going on and hasn't stopped after many have asked it to.

I agree the cussing and stuff is uncalled for, though for some reason you and most others aren't giving me the same benefit you give others. Why can firestorm haters or dislikers vent, but not people that like firestorm? That's what I am talking about when I say the v1 partisans can't take what they dish out. Basically its supposed to be a one sided echo chamber here where everyone hates firestorm and v2. I like stating my opinion to, but every time I do, oh no, you are a moron, a child, rude, etc. IN most of my posts I was not any ruder than anyone else was. Blunt maybe, but not rude. th post to ayesha was opinion, not rude, but somehow its wrong for me to express an opinion.

Welcome to the wonderful world of secobd life serith. People will gas people up and csuse drama. Get over it. It's how you handle it. You either choose to get involved or don't. Your choice. But in a way you are bashing others users rights to explain their anger. You are impeeding their right to have an opinion. Not to mention you are impeeding their right to freedom of speech. I honestly don't care who badges what viewer. You think the phoenix devs don't get bashed every day? Or every so often? You don't see them complaining. They are doing this for us. The users. So what if there are a few unpleasant people out there. Not everyone is going to like what you me or the phoenix devs do. But, you know what they are entitled to their opinion and bashes all they want. Freedom if speech brother.

I'm not saying who is right and who isn't serith. Because as I've mentioned everyone has made a valid point. And everyone is entitled to their opinion. You know the saying serith opinions are like assholes we all have one and they all stink. Am I saying your wrong no. Am I saying they are wrong? No. But, you seem to have this annoyance with those who hate v2. And who bash it. So what if they bash Firestorm? They are expressing their opinions. Which is good. It's healthy for the community to speak. As I said though I'm done here. I've pretty much summed up every argument yyou or another person could make. After this I would just see this as drama.

its ok to vent,but its not venting when your taking what someone says replying to them and treating them like trash in which you have in some of your post.I wouldn't care but the way you handle it is childish.I don't see anyone else aside form one other person taking what people say and then bashing them.Everyone is different, everyone likes different things. SO some bash firestorm,big deal its gonna happen with any viewer or anything. As I said before take ti with a grain of salt and move on.

I am officially done with making comments. If you want to continue on your rant go ahead, keep the drama up if you like. I think Nexy has said it better then anyone here and I respect that.Nothing more needs to be added.

Welcome to the wonderful world of secobd life serith. People will gas people up and csuse drama. Get over it. It's how you handle it. You either choose to get involved or don't. Your choice.

Normally I stay out of Sl drama. just dont like people not using something solely because of something that mostly causes drama. For the most part drama doesnt bother me, I find it funny a lot of the time.

But in a way you are bashing others users rights to explain their anger. You are impeeding their right to have an opinion. Not to mention you are impeeding their right to freedom of speech.

Not exactly. I am not the one going "shut up, stop stating your opinion on a blog,Your further input concerning this is no longer required." like others are, so who is stepping on who's freedom of speech? i dont have a problem with people speaking, people just offended when I reply, they are impeding my right to an opinion as well, but no anger at that it seems

Not everyone is going to like what you me or the phoenix devs do. But, you know what they are entitled to their opinion and bashes all they want. Freedom if speech brother.

You can't please everyone. Anyone in business knows this. Some will always be unhappy. They can bash and have an opinion, but so can I. Freedom of speech is a two way street.

But, you seem to have this annoyance with those who hate v2. And who bash it. So what if they bash Firestorm? They are expressing their opinions. Which is good. It's healthy for the community to speak.

Because I find many that hate it hate it for stupid, trivial reasons, and try to make it out to be worse than it actually is even if they haven't used it. Besides, I am not bashing phoenix, just the people that bash on firestorm. I am expressing my opinion as well, just they probably think its a shock that some actually *like* v2 based viewers.

For the most part my last posts to ayesha were not drama, it was expressing my opinion, but this is apparently frowned upon unless you are a v1 lover.

Why do you give a fuck what their reasons are for hating Firestorm? Who gives a flying crap. Just move on dude. God, like a friggin 5 year crying because someone bashed a peice of software. God dude. Get a life. Seriously.

its ok to vent,but its not venting when your taking what someone says replying to them and treating them like trash in which you have in some of your post.

'In some posts, perhaps. In most posts I was civil. I am simply seen as being a moron or whatever because I disagree. Also, don't call me out for treating people like trash, when you didn't call out Atra Lupis once, you want to see what treating someone like trash is like, look at those posts.

I wouldn't care but the way you handle it is childish

So apparently I cannot disagree with people or point out where they are wrong? This is childish? How was i childish with ayesha? as that was apparently what set you off again. I simply stated facts.

I am officially done with making comments. If you want to continue on your rant go ahead, keep the drama up if you like. I think Nexy has said it better then anyone here and I respect that.Nothing more needs to be added.

Alright, tis fine. Most people I dont reply to, because they don't bash one viewer or another, or state things that are inaccurate about them. And why is it only a rant when I do it, but not the other side? I've been listening to people rant about firestorm and v2 for months now. Constructive criticism is fine, "dis sux" is not helpful. it takes two to make drama.

Why do you give a fuck what their reasons are for hating Firestorm? Who gives a flying crap. Just move on dude. God, like a friggin 5 year crying because someone bashed a peice of software. God dude. Get a life. Seriously.

Because if you read them, all are in the most modern release, therefore pretty much all the reasons they gave were invalid. And no, not crying, this is more annoyance than crying. I try to make the viewer better, the ones complaining about things and doing nothing to fix them are the ones needing to get a life.

I give their obviously not going to listen at this point

Posts are being addressed to me, so why shouldn't i respond. I didn't say i didn't agree, nor am i being dramatic about any of this. i am not cussing or talking down to anyone at this point so i fail to see what the issue is.

I don't know what else to say Serith. I'm going back to my real life. I have no time for this childish petty game. I think I recall you saying you were a beta tester or q&a for phoenix am I right serith? Then why bash the users? I'm still stuck on the question of why bash the users if you work for phoenix? Go back to beta testing I'm sure lgg or wolfspirit can give you some work. If not jessica or kadah. :P

Where was that when I expressed my opinions? I am perfectly fine to "let it go" as you put it, but why should i be the only one?

I think I recall you saying you were a beta tester or q&a for phoenix am I right serith? Then why bash the users? I'm still stuck on the question of why bash the users if you work for phoenix?

I am a beta tester (QA is another term for it). I don't so much bash users. Use phoenix? Fine by me. Use firestorm? fine by me. Use imprudence or singularity or LL v3? All are ok. But if you are going to hate a viewer, at least have valid reasons for doing it. And I am a beta tester for the phoenix firestorm team. Doesn't mean I can't get annoyed or frustrated at people. Even support or the devs get annoyed and frustrated, they will just be nicer or say it in private. Usually anyway.

Go back to beta testing I'm sure lgg or wolfspirit can give you some work. If not jessica or kadah. :P

Actually we just got done testing phoenix 1591. That had to be pulled back for 1600. Most of the beta testers give up a groan when they have to QA phoenix which is probably why the bugs got through. then before that it was the 3.2.1 and 3.2.2 betas we had to update like every other day for over a month. Right now we are in a break period anyway. The devs are spending time with families and so are many beta testers and support people. i likely won't have anything to beta test til january.

Unlike normal games, Zeron, SL actually has a financial aspect in that people can spend real money and actually accumulate real money using it. For some, it's more than a bit of seriousness, its a livelihood of sorts.

Taking a moment to be constructive, as Sophi pointed out there is an -actual- speed decrease. I did my own FPS tests and find I'm dropping from 14 FPS to 6.5 FPS on even slightly reduced settings on viewers like Firestorm. After the mesh update to Phoenix it can be deduced it isn't mesh coding itself causing the majority of the client lag. This bothers me because this means that ANY of the viewers running this coding is suffering from something somewhere. I'm curious as to if any of the TPV dev teams would be able to isolate this and fix the issue. I've filed jira tickets on this and another issue without anything helpful posted in response (I don't think they were support staff, however XD). Hopefully something will pop up. I encourage people like Sophi who have all these great pictures and proof to make their own tickets or stack onto pre-existing ones experiencing this issue. If we accumulate this into a large enough issue, perhaps it will be addressed faster than mere complaints. Even if there are no solutions at the moment, this really needs to be brought to the forefront.

don't respond with the attitude of an asshole .... and you won't get treated like one.

In most of my comments I was civil. Saying someone is wrong is not the same as having an attitude of an asshole.

No, the reason you were (and are) being called out ... is because in many responses, you come across as a pompous ass.

Own your own shit.

In some cases I likely do sound a bit arrogant, but you are also projecting as you come off sounding pretty pompous yourself. I also should point out i am saying the same things some of the devs have been saying for months like responding to ayesha, and yet thats seen as causing drama even thoguh i was civil and had a disagreement with some things said.

sighs no one knows how to drop stuff it seems.its Official Serith is a troll and everyone just needs to stop feeding it.

How nice of you to call me, and ONLY me out, and not the other guy. i pointed out that you refused to call out Atra Lupis earlier, and you are doing it again. It is unfair to label me a troll, and let them get a free pass for doing the same thing. Apparently if you don't think phoenix is the bestest thing ever and like firestorm, and argue with the incorrect things people are saying about it and correct them with facts, you are a troll. IN other words :If one disagrees with you and refuse to except you am right they are a troll. Typical. If all you are going todo is complain about arguing, then only come down on one of the arguers go away like you have said you would do like 5 times already.

Look the other guy has a point, even if it was made rude and I DID SAY earlier in my post YOU and ONE OTHER PERSON are the only ones replying to others post.I figure since you acted like you knew everything you could gather that the OTHER PERSON was atra. but they have a point all your doing is causing drama.

the way you look, is a drama starter, who IS whining about V1 users and how mean they were to you when you beta tested firestorm, or how hardcore they are, rather thinking its opinions not like everyone really trying to point a blame or call out someone ,BUT your the ONLY ONE ASIDE from ATRA(big letters so you can read) that are arguing and atra is just trying to get you to see your being rude to poeple own up and drop it, but you can't cause it looks like your enjoying this drama going on cause you have to reply to everything that ANNOYS you. if it annoys you drop it and LET IT THE FREAKIN GODS GO.Your worse then the people that complained about the firestorm and V2 users.You sunk lower then them to make a point that you thought was important.That didn't need to be made by replying to every little post but stated in one post that directed to no one as a OPINION.

Look the other guy has a point, even if it was made rude and I DID SAY earlier in my post YOU and ONE OTHER PERSON are the only ones replying to others post.I figure since you acted like you knew everything you could gather that the OTHER PERSON was atra. but they have a point all your doing is causing drama.

I could gather the other person was atra, but you are only calling me out by name. You act like i ma the only one causing drama, when anyone knows it takes more than one person to cause drama. You seem so horrified at my tone and how i treat others, but he gets a free pass because he bashes me. Its wrong when i bash someone else, but its not when I am bashed. Also, for most of my posts I didnt really bash anyone.

if your gonna whine then why stay where apparently according to you "everyone" is so mean to you.

I am not whining. I am simply observing your behavior. You find it alright for others to bash on me, but nto me to say anything back. And no, not everyone is mean to me, just a few who cant drop it

When you flat out dismiss a contradictory experience ... you're being an ass, Serith. Plain and simple.

When you lump someone in with those you are harping on ... you're being an ass.

Like I said once before - I don't give a shot who is bashing what. They have their opinion, you have yours, I have mine.

I'll only harp on such things when it becomes quite clear that a person isn't capable of letting things roll off of their shoulders.

People are bashing Firestorm - so bloody what? Big fracking deal. I have long ago come to realize that such people (who are the exact same people that bash Linden Lab when they do something RIGHT by the by) will ALWAYS find something to gripe about.

the way you look, is a drama starter, who IS whining about V1 users and how mean they were to you when you beta tested firestorm, or how hardcore they are

Maybe I do, then again. I wanna see you in the next firestorm release post calling out all the people that go on about how firestorm sucks. Those people are starting drama too, but no, you wont. and neither will anyone else i bet. Again, it takes more than one to cause drama, pinning it just on me is dishonest.

atra is just trying to get you to see your being rude to poeple own up and drop it, but you can't cause it looks like your enjoying this drama going on cause you have to reply to everything that ANNOYS you.

So you get me to see im being rude by being a condescending douchebag? i can admit i was a bit rude in some areas, but acting like all posts I make are rude is dishonest. And yes, i post at some that annoy me. Just like some just have to write about what bugs them, which in many cases seems like info. I use SL too, and i am familiar with all the reasons people dont use firestorm or v2, and some of the old ones are being repeated here.

if it annoys you drop it and LET IT THE FREAKIN GODS GO.

ditto.

Your worse then the people that complained about the firestorm and V2 users.You sunk lower then them to make a point that you thought was important.

HAHAHAHAHA, no. You apparently havent read anything over the last year or so. If you think i have sunk lower han the firestorm or v2 haters you havent been paying attention. In addition I havent kicked people out of my club or off my lands because they use v1 or phoenix. i dont hound people to use v2 based viewers either. I have a long way to go to be as bad as v2 haters.

That didn't need to be made by replying to every little post but stated in one post that directed to no one as a OPINION.

My opinions are just that, opinions. And i dont respond to every post, just some i find to be inaccurate, or addressed at me

Don’t fool yourself: Linden Lab’s stats tell them who uses what and brings how much money. I take it that they monitor those stats all the time. One day those stats will tell them that the users of V1-based TPVs are dispensable in economic terms. That will be the day when they pull the plug.

Btw: There have been 95,000 downloads of Firestorm 3.2.2 as of now. After reading this here thread I am much afraid that 95,000 people wanted to have a good laugh at the clumsy interface and the general lack of usability.

I also, agree with Moly in that even though I am still using Phoenix and probably will until it becomes unusable, I think the Phoenix/Firestorm team has done remarkable work and I wholeheartedly appreciate all their hard work and attention to detail. That said, there some aspects of Firestorm I really like a lot, and there are some I believe were just done for no other reason than to torment the older users like myself and cater to the newbies who were already using LL's viewer 2 (in which case they were still learning that viewer and would not have had that much of a change by switching to a Firestorm release where everything was named the same as we were already used to and in the same locations). All that said, my hat is off to the Firestorm team for taking a virtually worthless platform and doing great things with it, I look forward to future releases and hope that at some point I can be as passionate about Firestorm as I have been and am about Phoenix.

First, I want to thank you and all your team for your great work with Phoenix and Firestorm. I understand the need to move forward with mesh, and would certainly love to be among those who work with, and can experience it. But I want to also tell you that Phoenix has a large, and loyal following, and it isn't for sentimental reasons.

I originally switched from Linden Viewer 2 to Phoenix because people reported that it ran better on computers that didn't have the fancy graphics card and power that Linden viewers require. I found this to be true, and have been very happy with Phoenix for several months. Then I tried Firestorm, because I wanted to see the mesh. I'm still trying to figure out what that means, btw. The first time, Firestorm (beta) completely crashed my computer, and I had to uninstall it. I waited until it became a stable release, and tried it again. It did not crash this time, but I have the same problems I had with the Linden Viewer 2:

My avatar can't move more than a few inches at a time. Lag is terrible, and it takes forever for images to load, and my hair disappears, or I just wander around as a particle cloud. With Phoenix however, unless the sim I'm on is having problems, my avatar can zip around like anything. I even figured out how to make a portable version (not possible with Viewer 2, because of Newbie mode.) This year, I was forced to upgrade to a new laptop, because the programs I use at work would no longer run on my 10 yr old xp machine. I can only afford one computer, and I bought this one before I learned of Second Life. I had to have a laptop, because of the work I do, and I couldn't have afforded the gaming one anyway. I think you will find that a lot of people are in my situation, and came to phoenix because the Linden viewers are unusable without an expensive computer. Phoenix has a large and loyal following, because of its usability. There are folks out there with older systems, or inexpensive ones who will lose access to Secondlife for lack of a usable viewer, if Phoenix is abandoned. I understand that you can't support two viewers, and that lots of people need mesh capability. It would be great if I could afford a computer that could see it. However, I think there is a larger population of residents who can't afford to upgrade to fancy gaming computers. I hope you will be able to at least keep phoenix functional, as it is now. I am reluctant to upgrade to the newest release, as I don't want to trade usability for Mesh. Please don't take away access to Phoenix. Thanks

Frustration here (not anger) - I updated to the latest version of Phoenix. It felt clunky, and so I threw in the towel (thinking) I might as well update to Firestorm. I love how you guys tried really, really hard to made Firestorm look and work like Phoenix. Settling into Firestorm was easy, BUT omg, Firestorm's PFS suffers BIG TIME (and that running on a year old iMac, one of the fastest models made at the time). The very slow and very jerky frame rates of FIRESTORM caused me to go back to Phoenix v1.5.2.1185.

I'd just like to say thanks to the team for all their work on both clients. I haven't moved to Firestorm yet - Phoenix is SO stable on my comp, and I don't see enough mesh (yet) to warrant risking the change; every time I've tried it before, it's not been an improvement; but this is no fault of the coders, it's an issue between v2 code and my hardware. Anyway, I'm really grateful to have been given the chance to carry on with Phoenix while you're all working on the v2 viewer, as there was no way in heck I was using the LL client. I really appreciate that you listen to feedback and try to accommodate everyone, and you're doing such a difficult job trying to juggle all the different coding issues and maintaining two clients, while putting up with the ingratitude of some people who don't seem to realise all this is VOLUNTARY..! So, in short, yeah, maybe there are some issues, but there are MORE with LL official clients and they get paid - so you guys really are doing a sterling job and should be thanked more often. Have a fantastic Christmas =)

I just wanted to send a hearty thanks to the team for all their hard work and effort. I personally am a fan of the Firestorm version even though I totally hated the LL's V2 version because I would constantly freeze and crash. I am probably the most stable than I have ever been using Firestorm and love it. Phoenix was good, it's a classic so for many it's hard to transition to something new but change happens and you either move with the flow or get left in the dust - your choice. It's unfortunate that the viewer does not work for some (I have had a few crashes as well although nothing as bad as I did with the previous viewers I had used including phoenix).

I think the thing that annoys me the most about some of the comments I have read (I'm just speaking generally here) is that the ones that want to complain due to the look and "feel" of it. These people have put in hundreds, more than likely thousands of man-hours to create these releases for us and to give us the option of keeping some of the features in V2 that we loved about phoenix. That tried their best to compromise and meet the needs of users while still maintaining a forward momentum as things continually change.

You heard them before in previous press releases that updating the V1 viewer would be way more hassle than V2 and come with a crap load more problems which you probably would end up chewing them out for not getting the work done fast enough to suit your needs. Honestly, people are never satisfied and always ungrateful. I would think that some should be happy that they are making the compromises they have so far. LL is going to keep changing and at some point V1 will die eventually anyways. It may still be hanging on but it's not going to last forever and when the time finally comes for it to die, where will the phoenix team be if they had not improved with the times? Stuck in dead water with you lot crying and whining to them. If you want the V1 to be updated and improved so bad then why not learn to code yourselves and fix it yourselves and then perhaps you can appreciate the hard work that they put into making these features available to you. Otherwise I say stuff it because it's seriously annoying.

I do hope that they will be able to find improvements that will allow those that have trouble running firestorm on their systems very soon.

Again, thank you all for your hard work and dedication to giving us choices. You are appreciated! ~(^o^)~

(PS. You probably think they sound arrogant because they are really probably impatient and a little pissed off that so many want to complain and not even show an ounce of gratitude. They could pack up this site and this program and say to hell with everyone and leave you to flounder with other viewers so don't bite the hand that feeds you. It always has the ability to slap you back. ~_^)

"Change is the only constant. Hanging on is the only sin."~~~Denise McCluggage

Ok this is actually a question. I DL the new Phoenix mesh viewer and went to try on some mesh hair to see how it looks like. When I clicked wear i saw the hair above my head for a split sec and it was gone. I put on the alpha layer and then half the head was missing and still NO hair. I tried another hair and same thing saw the hair appear for a sec and poof it was gone. Then nothing. I dont understand what the prob could be or how to fix it since I am not much of a tech comp person. I know I DL the viewer ok even made sure I deleted all of the old viewer. Does anyone know what could be the prob and can it be fixed???

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