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Topic: Why do we pray for the dead again? (Read 938 times)

Me and my wife (who is also a catachumen) were discussing the other day about praying for those who have died. It came down to her saying we pray for them so that if they're on their way to hell that our prayers can help get them to heaven and me disagreeing. But then it got me thinking, "Why exactly DO we pray for people who have died?" Will my prayers genuinely help someone who was a non-repentant sinner to be saved?

We do believe that the prayers can help. 2nd Maccabees points to this in chapter 12. It talks about how they prayed for the fallen that their sin would be blotted out and it talks about how they did so correctly in the hope of the resurrection. I believe there's something in Hebrews which implies they were praying for the dead, also. I'll have to find it, though, as I can't recall exactly where.

Will my prayers genuinely help someone who was a non-repentant sinner to be saved?

Not against their will, but then again we don't truly know the hearts and minds of others, in fact we can even be decieved about ourselves at times, so there is always hope.

It is God's will that none should perish, and anything that is asked for in accordance with God's will has already been promised to be granted to us, so discounting someone intentionally setting their will against God, our prayers must somehow have a positive affect in helping those who we pray for. There are different numbers of stripes that can be received and many mansions, to use biblical terminology, so even if one does not go from torment to mansion, their stripes can still be lessened. But we don't know the exact state of anyone's soul (even though we accept that God has revealed those canonized as saints to be on good terms with Him) , so we pray for everyone.

Will my prayers genuinely help someone who was a non-repentant sinner to be saved?

Actually we don't know who was unrepetant sinner or not since people don't always pray aloud.Apostles prayed for departed into Holy Liturgy written in year 60 so I believe they know better and I believe that even the destination of rich guy from lazarus may be changed if we pray for him.We also see Apostles praying for dead people and their prayers turnd people to life so had an effect.

Also: God is not restricted to linear time like we are. Who is to say that God cannot hear our prayers now and that they work "in the past" on the hearts of those who are now passed? We don't judge who is the unrepentant sinner (except in very few cases of those who are formally declared heretics.)

Tell me if in Bible did Apostles prayers for dead people help them like bringing the departed people to life?

Apostles had written Holy Liturgy and these Holy liturgies contained prayers for departed. I believe the holy liturgy of apostle and evangelist Matthew contain prayers ofr departed. Can evangelist Matthew be right when writting Gospel and then wrong when writting Holy Liturgy with prayers for departed. Could Apostle Luke be right when writting Gospel and then wrong when painting icons?

You pray so that if they are in Hell they can either get an easier punishment or exit Hell.

FROM THE COUNSELS OF ELDER CLEOPA:Commemoration at Forty Divine Liturgies:

I want to relate a story to you. France was Orthodox until the year1054, as was Italy, for until that time all countries were of ONE faith.The Roman Catholics (Papists/Vatican Religion) separated from us in1054, in the great papal schism when our Church was torn apart becauseof papal reforms.

Before that time, there was a priest in France (which was stillOrthodox) who had a brother in the military. The French were at warwith the Mauritanians. Mauritania is what we refer to as French Africa,right on the other side of the Gibraltar, toward Liberia. At one time itwas a Kingdom. So the French were there fighting against theMauritanians, on the other side of Gibraltar, in Africa.

The French priest’s brother went to Mauritania with his militaryregiment. At that time war wasn’t like it is now with atomic bombs andplanes , canons and guns; then they fought with Swords, like in the daysof Stephen the Great1, with swords and arrows.

The French thus went into Mauritania to fight this great battle betweenthe European armies and those in Africa. Even though the French won thebattle, many of their soldiers were captured by the Mauritanians,amongst whom was the priest’s brother. The priest was from Marseilles, aFrench port which is on the Mediterranean Sea.

The priest did not know that his brother had fallen prisoner, and whenthe other soldiers returned to France at the end of the war, he askedthem, “Have you seen my brother?” “Father, I think he died in all thecarnage of the battle. Bodies were laying like tree stumps –The Battlewas so bad- and I think that he died, poor man.”

The priest, with a BROTHER’S LOVE, decided to serve the Divine Liturgyfor Forty days in which he specifically commemorated his Brother.However, the priest’s brother was not dead, but rather a prisoner, andhe was bound with chains in a prison with many others who were alsochained.

The priest would be serving Divine Liturgy at about 10:00 in themorning, and at that exact time all the chains would fall off of hisbrother, leaving him completely free.

The other prisoners said, “What is happening with you? Why do thoseChains fall off of you? Are you some kind of wizard?”

“No, I don’t know anything about magic stuff.”“Yeah right!, You don’t know magic!”All of his chains would break and fall off every day at 10:00. Theguards would chain him again and the next day the chains would break andfall. Another set of chains, and another set broken like dust. “This Guy is a real Wizard! He’ll just walk out of prison when he wants,look, the chains can’t hold him!”

No One understood what was going on, and they would ask Him,“What kind of magic do you have? Do you have some magical amulet hiddenin your shirt or in your pants?” Saying this, the guards would strip him of his clothes. “Tie me upnaked, if you don’t believe me!”They did exactly that, and the next day, the chains would again fall offof him. The guards were baffled and asked each other, “Where does hehide his magic? If we knew how to do what he does, we could escape fromanywhere!, “Now where do you hide your magic?” He insisted, “I don’tknow magic.”

“Then what religion are you?” they asked, since they were all Moslems.

“I am a Christian. I believe in Christ. I don’t know any incantationsbecause I believe otherwise. My brother is a priest in my homeland ofFrance, and I think that he is serving the Liturgy now and removes aparticle for me at Proskomedia, thinking that I am dead. If I WERE deadand in hell, I would be unbound even there, like I am here. I think thisis what is happening, but I don’t even know for sure.”

“How long is this going to happen to you?”“Our practice is to serve forty Liturgies. You will see that for theseforty days, the chains fall off of me.”“After that, what will happen?”“I don’t know what will happen, except that I will be delivered fromyour hands.”“How? You won’t slip out of our hands!”“I believe that God would deliver me even if I were in hell, thanks tothe forty Liturgies; and he will certainly deliver me from your handshere.”“You’ll see what kind of supervision we put you under then!”The guards figured out when the Forty days would be up, and did not putchains on the Man during that time, “It’s useless to chain him becauseduring these forty days they just break apart and fall off of him!”

On the Fortieth day, they were all keeping watch over him. They putdouble bars on the doors, bound him in chains again, and set a guardjust for him, “Don’t take your eyes off of him. Today is the fortiethday and he claims that he will leave here!”

As the guards were watching him, suddenly they beheld that the roof ofthe prison split open and a hand descended, took the prisoner by thehair of his head, and he was gone.

Where did he go? He was deposited on the porch of his house inMarseilles within a moment from the time he was lifted out of prison.

The Guards were asked, “What Happened!?”“Christ came. We saw a hand,” (They did not know that it was the angelof the Lord, not Christ himself.) “He snatched the prisoner from us andwe fell down trembling. No one could have even grabbed him by the foot.”“How did he get out?”“Through the roof of the prison, and then it closed back up again.”One of the guards said, “Do you see how powerful the Christian faith is?Do you see the strength of their Christ? It didn’t matter how much youguarded him, but he took him when He wanted!”When the priest saw his brother, he said “My Brother! You have comehome!, They told me you died. Today I finished serving the fortiethLiturgy in which I removed a particle for your soul.”The former prisoner said, “You did the right thing, Brother, for if Ihad been in hell, you would have delivered me from there. Since I wasstill on Earth, you brought me out of prison. May God reward you. Listento what happened to me…” and he proceeded to tell his brother about thechains.So you see how strong those prayers are during the forty Liturgies whenone is remembered at the Proskomedia.

There is another example of a miracle in connection with the fortyLiturgies. An elderly Hieromonk who was an abbot had a disciple who wasnot very obedient.The elder frequently told him, “Be obedient my son, or you will suffereternal torments.”But the disobedient disciple still did not follow the counsel of theelder. He died before his elder, but after his death, the elder had avision of the disciple in hell. The Disciple said to him, “Father, Please serve forty Liturgies for me,2for I was disobedient and bad, upsetting you so much.”After the elder had completed serving those forty Divine Liturgies, heagain beheld his disciple, but this time he was clothed in robes asbright as the sun, and he said to the elder, “Through your holy prayersand intercessions which you made for me, I have been released andsaved.”

Does this mean that I can still go to heaven (or achieve theosis) if people pray for me after death? What if there is no one to pray for me?

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"Let the mouth also fast from disgraceful speeches and railings. For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor. "— St. John Chrysostom

Will my prayers genuinely help someone who was a non-repentant sinner to be saved?

Without getting into free will issues, God did say somewhere in the OT that He had the heart of the king in His hand. I believe God can influence and reach people in ways we can't even imagine in our feeble minds (and all this without violating their freedom).