Yes really. Alonso does not have number 1 status until his team mate is out of title contention. Standard policy with every team. Vettel has it from the start, proven by taking webbers front wing early in the season.

On 1 lap pace, I truly believe they are. You caught me on my break from the absurdist theatre.

Mark Webber faster than Alonso over a lap huh? Astonishing comment that has no relation to reality. Sad to see the extremes vettel fans go, to justify his deficiencies.

So much lying and acting like Alonso was trumping Trulli when he wasn't.So much lying and acting like Alonso was trumping Hamilton before demanding nr 1 status at McLaren.So much over-reacting over 1 thing that happened with Vettel/Webber, the latter who actually never had to give up a race win.So much lying that the British GP was early in the season.

All facts. Mclaren is a debatable situation where the truth is not clear, the rest is clear. Alonso had no issues with Trulli, people just keep making up myths.

Yes really. Alonso does not have number 1 status until his team mate is out of title contention. Standard policy with every team. Vettel has it from the start, proven by taking webbers front wing early in the season.

I am glad we have established that you have not watched a single season of F1 in which Alonso raced in. Bravo!

Mark Webber faster than Alonso over a lap huh? Astonishing comment that has no relation to reality. Sad to see the extremes vettel fans go, to justify his deficiencies.

I base that judgement on their stint as team mates in F3000 (in which Webber beat Alonso), the fact that Webber replaced Alonso in Minardi leaving Alonso without a seat in 2002, the fact that while at Minardi Alonso lagged behind his team mate throughout the season and finished 23rd, while Webber out-paced his team mate throughout the season and finished 16th (with 2 points to his name).

After that, Alonso jumped to Renault (who will soon build a rocket ship for Alonso's 2 championships), while Webber went to Jaguar (a respectable midfield team). What I have stated is the reality - I shudder to think what you believe to be factual.

Yes really. Alonso does not have number 1 status until his team mate is out of title contention. Standard policy with every team. Vettel has it from the start, proven by taking webbers front wing early in the season.

With Seb the jury is still out if he will be another Schumacher or a driver in the line of Fangio, Senna, Alonso.

It is something about the way they race, their passion, their intensity and aura.

Michael and Sebastian are more methodical in their approach, less Latin. Very successful, less charismatic.

So take it as a purely subjective perspective of mine.

I see your point, but I'm confused about why you think the jury is still out on the matter. I thought its clear as day that Seb is not "Latin" and that if he is ever going to have an "aura" he would have it by now.

It's very charitable of you to allow for the possibility that Seb will one day all of a sudden turn Latin, develop an aura, and join the ranks of Alonso in your list.

I'm so glad we have this thng called a "race" where there are objective winners and once the helmet goes on the outcome does not depend on whether you are Latin or not.

I am glad we have established that you have not watched a single season of F1 in which Alonso raced in. Bravo!

Not a very strong counter argument. Try again.

I base that judgement on their stint as team mates in F3000 (in which Webber beat Alonso), the fact that Webber replaced Alonso in Minardi leaving Alonso without a seat in 2002, the fact that while at Minardi Alonso lagged behind his team mate throughout the season and finished 23rd, while Webber out-paced his team mate throughout the season and finished 16th (with 2 points to his name).

After that, Alonso jumped to Renault (who will soon build a rocket ship for Alonso's 2 championships), while Webber went to Jaguar (a respectable midfield team). What I have stated is the reality - I shudder to think what you believe to be factual.

Oh you base that on F3000 when Alonso was 19, when they were NOT team mates, instead of their actual F1 careers. lol. Wonder why you would be ignoring their actual f1 careers? Maybe because it undermines your biased perceptions? Claiming Alonso lagged behind Tarso Marques shows how dishonest and desperate you really are. Clearly not interested in a fair debate, and when your on the wrong side of the truth why would you be I guess?

I'm trying to figure out why this matters. Do you think it is necessary for all race fans to agree about how good a certain driver is? If you (and the unnamed persons you allegedly speak for) need a few more years to figure things out, I don't see any problem with that. Take your time.

Because it's important that drivers get the recognition they deserve. The WDC is given an undue weighting in assessing how the drivers stack up because most people either can't be bothered or don't want to look at a more complete package of car-driver-team-luck. That doesn't mean hardcore F1 fans but the dabblers: I went to Yeongam for the race last year and found that the vast majority of Koreans there were Vettel fans. Maybe they support him for his lovely personality, or maybe it's because at that stage he had won the last two championships and was on his way to a third, so they thought he was the best driver. It reminded me slightly of going to Tanzania a couple of months ago to find that everyone is a fan of Manchester United; the odd Man City shirt was starting to creep in as well. The team that wins the Premiership is almost always the team that deserves it. That is the case in F1 as well; the team that deserves it. Yet that doesn't take away from Alonso or Hamilton's abilities in the slightest; it was their teams that let them down. When I chat to family or friends about 2012 Vettel, not Alonso, is the man of the hour. Vettel is the one being nominated for a Laureus Award. The WDC is the face F1 projects to the world. As a fan of the sport, I want to be confident it is the right face.

When I heard in the closing stages of last season that Fangio and Schumacher were the only two drivers in F1 history who had won three titles in a row I pictured two drivers rising above their peers to another level, bestriding their eras like giants among men. Watching the way Vettel has joined that club makes me realise just how simplistic that picture was.

Not that it matters, but in light of how it was so easy for you to figure out that Alonso was one of the best on the grid great after 2005 and 2006, without a tough teammate - and even if he had lost you would have still rated him as such "because "it is as much about "being in" the championship battle as winning it" - why is it you are having such a difficult time figuring Seb?

You misunderstand me. My point is that we should build up a picture of how a driver is performing from watching qualifying and race; the points are so arbitrary as a measure of pure driver's performance (see Hamilton 190 - 188 Button). If Alonso had lost the championship to Schumacher in 2006 because his car retired on route to an easy win a couple of times that wouldn't change Alonso's quality as a driver in the slightest. From watching 2012, I believe that Vettel was scrappy and that both Alonso and Hamilton were more consistently excellent than he was, particularly before Red Bull's upgrades in Singapore piled the rear downforce back on. In my eyes neither Alonso nor Hamilton needed to win the championship to be better than Vettel in 2012. The problem is, the wider world won't look deeply enough to see that.

Well, it would help your enjoyment of F1 if you don't turn all this into a self-fulfilling prophecy. When you praise Alonso so much for 2006 and call Vettel scrappy for 2012, you clearly have a double standard, and so you see everything through tinted glasses. Of course you're not going to enjoy seeing Vettel being given credit, because in your mind, Alonso is better, so you measure everything according to that. When Alonso does well, it is his talent, when Vettel does well, it's the car. Because it's hard to change your mind and maybe accept that someone better has come along.

All I can say is, do yourself a favor and learn to take a step back. Look deeper, to use your own words.If you experience such a big contrast between what you perceive and what you feel others 'mindlessly follow', double check the correctness of your own believes. Check some facts. Realize the fact that Vettel has had the measure on Webber in just as many races as Alonso had on Massa, regardless of your perception that Webber was better than Vettel in the first half. Realize that 'when the car was not the best', Alonso and Hamilton were hanging around 4th - 9th, just like Vettel, regardless of your perception that Alonso and Hamilton showed things when the car was not the best, that Vettel did not.

I disagree, Vettel won the WDC, Alonso didn't, I'm 100% sure Alonso would rather have won it and have a load of people he couldn't give a stuff about thinking Vettel drove better than him rather than vice versa.

I repeat, championships are the ultimate goal for all the drivers, but what is the purpose of a championship? It doesn't mean anything beyond where it places you in the history of the sport. It is, essentially, a validation of your position as one of the elite group of drivers. It is the right to call yourself the best. The problem is, what if no one else is calling you the best? What is the point of a championship if it doesn't raise your stock, if it doesn't impact on your greatness in the eyes of the people?

Alonso would rather have won the championship of course, but you can tell how important it is to him to be seen as the best driver with his constant underplaying of the Ferrari. It wasn't enough that he was leading the championship, he had to make it clear he was performing "miracles." Winning the championship in, as Andrew Benson loves to say, "a car that was never the best" would have been the ultimate validation of his greatness, but to history, not to himself. I don't believe winning the championship would have somehow made him an even better driver in his own mind than he already thinks he is.

Well, it would help your enjoyment of F1 if you don't turn all this into a self-fulfilling prophecy. When you praise Alonso so much for 2006 and call Vettel scrappy for 2012, you clearly have a double standard, and so you see everything through tinted glasses.

Alonso was near flawless in 2006, comprehensibly thrashing his team mate and winning the title without the best car. Vettel spent a large part of 2012 struggling for pace, and in a close battle with his team mate, finally winning the title by 3 points from a rival with a much slower car. The seasons are not comparable at all, so no double standards. To judge them as equal seasons would be the definition of double standards considering how much superior ALonso's was. Sadly some people cant accept it and try to distory reality with farcical claims like the Redbull and Ferrari being evenly matched. LOL.

All I can say is, do yourself a favor and learn to take a step back. Look deeper, to use your own words.If you experience such a big contrast between what you perceive and what you feel others 'mindlessly follow', double check the correctness of your own believes. Check some facts. Realize the fact that Vettel has had the measure on Webber in just as many races as Alonso had on Massa, regardless of your perception that Webber was better than Vettel in the first half. Realize that 'when the car was not the best', Alonso and Hamilton were hanging around 4th - 9th, just like Vettel, regardless of your perception that Alonso and Hamilton showed things when the car was not the best, that Vettel did not.

None of this true. The qualifying, race results and points totals don't agree with you.

Yikes. Just no. People don't climb K2 to build a reputation. Many WDCs (not all, I agree) would be equally happy with their achievements had they been done in a vacuum without any fans or media. When you were a kid and won a race, did you feel happy only because it raised your reputation, or because you won a race?

Both. I loved the feeling of winning for its own sake and I loved what winning said about me in the eyes of everyone else. You think the only thing in the mind of Hillary when he stood on top of Everest was "well, this is a great personal achievement." No way. Part of it would have been, "I am the first person to climb Everest. My name in the history books is secure."

And no, just no, to WDCs being just as happy winning in a vacuum. Would Beckham's halfway line goal have mattered as much to him if he'd scored it in training?

We have heard that one from you before - it adds nothing to the facts. Statistical success and real greatness and profundity as a driver do not always correlate. With Seb the jury is still out if he will be another Schumacher or a driver in the line of Fangio, Senna, Alonso.

What did Fangio actually do, except for almost always winning in the best car, sometimes borrowing his team mates car when his one broke down.

And Alonso with Fangio and Senna? What a joke? Especially when you imply that Schumi isnt in that league...

The Schumi of 99 (the double world champ), let alone the finished one that won 7 titles, was much much better than Alonso is at the moment.

Alonso was near flawless in 2006, comprehensibly thrashing his team mate and winning the title without the best car. Vettel spent a large part of 2012 struggling for pace, and in a close battle with his team mate, finally winning the title by 3 points from a rival with a much slower car. The seasons are not comparable at all, so no double standards. To judge them as equal seasons would be the definition of double standards considering how much superior ALonso's was. Sadly some people cant accept it and try to distory reality with farcical claims like the Redbull and Ferrari being evenly matched. LOL.

None of this true. The qualifying, race results and points totals don't agree with you.

Well if you say so, then it must be true.Who needs substantiation when you have shown yourself to be such a master of insights in your 17 posts on this forum.

Personally I couldn't give a stuff about vettel driving a slower car, he had his time in a toro rosso and didn't exactly do badly.

What I think would silence any doubters would be if he was head to head with alonso or lewis in the same team..

But going head to head with another top driver is not really necessary to be rated a great driver. Schumacher never did that. Even Alonso did not fare well there, he lost to another top driver when the latter was just a rookie.

But going head to head with another top driver is not really necessary to be rated a great driver. Schumacher never did that. Even Alonso did not fare well there, he lost to another top driver when the latter was just a rookie.

Correct Michael did not but he made up for that in the 90s with so such success with clearly slower cars to his top rivals. He lost a few very close titles in the final races against Newey rocketships, much like Alonso has.

Well if you say so, then it must be true.Who needs substantiation when you have shown yourself to be such a master of insights in your 17 posts on this forum.

I'd cheers to that.

Well, at least they now have a very top driver, and Massa, rather than two Massa's.

I am sure the same driver who challenged Schumacher (2003) and Alonso (2005) to championships is on the level of a Massa. It is really difficult to see why so many people choose to praise him on his comeback with Lotus GP.

Correct Michael did not but he made up for that in the 90s with so such success with clearly slower cars to his top rivals. He lost a few very close titles in the final races against Newey rocketships, much like Alonso has.

I didn't realize Adrian Newey held the patent for rocket ships. What do you call a super fast Ferrari or Renault then? Space ship?

I am sure the same driver who challenged Schumacher (2003) and Alonso (2005) to championships is on the level of a Massa.

Good to see you paying attention and understanding something at least.

I didn't realize Adrian Newey held the patent for rocket ships. What do you call a super fast Ferrari or Renault then? Space ship?

He has for the past 20 years. I don't remember any super fast Renaults. Ferrari had some good years, once they figured out the old regulations, but they have been clueless since 2009 and build B class cars. Fingers crossed they make a car equal to anyone this year but I highly doubt it.

Correct Michael did not but he made up for that in the 90s with so such success with clearly slower cars to his top rivals. He lost a few very close titles in the final races against Newey rocketships, much like Alonso has.

The question was about doing well against other top drivers. Anyway, Vettel has also done well in slower car (2008) in a short span of 5 odd years so far.

Alonso would rather have won the championship of course, but you can tell how important it is to him to be seen as the best driver with his constant underplaying of the Ferrari. It wasn't enough that he was leading the championship, he had to make it clear he was performing "miracles." Winning the championship in, as Andrew Benson loves to say, "a car that was never the best" would have been the ultimate validation of his greatness, but to history, not to himself. I don't believe winning the championship would have somehow made him an even better driver in his own mind than he already thinks he is.

Which is exactly the kind of behaviour that most likely affected in Alonso losing the title from a very winnable position. Unlike Vettel, who focuses on his job and team building, Alonso and Hamilton constantly seek to convince they're the best. Flawed personalities both.

You can keep admiring Alonso shouting from the rooftops that he's the best, I'll keep on laughing at him while admiring Vettel going from title to title? Fair enough?

He has for the past 20 years. I don't remember any super fast Renaults. Ferrari had some good years, once they figured out the old regulations, but they have been clueless since 2009 and build B class cars. Fingers crossed they make a car equal to anyone this year but I highly doubt it.

Which is exactly the kind of behaviour that most likely affected in Alonso losing the title from a very winnable position. Unlike Vettel, who focuses on his job and team building, Alonso and Hamilton constantly seek to convince they're the best. Flawed personalities both.

You can keep admiring Alonso shouting from the rooftops that he's the best, I'll keep on laughing at him while admiring Vettel going from title to title? Fair enough?

Or perhaps your problem is that you read too much into his comments. One can do the same for Vettel.

If Alonso thinks that Hamilton is better than Vettel, he's entitled to have that opinion, and it's no different than someone from this forum holding that view. It's just that you, along with a bunch turn all his words into mindgames, somehow.

He can't praise Hamilton because then it's mindgames against Vettel. He can't praise Vettel either because then it'd be mindgames against Hamilton. If he says a bad word about either, it's also mindgames.

Well, what do you expect him to say when a journalist asks him a question?

Because it's important that drivers get the recognition they deserve. The WDC is given an undue weighting in assessing how the drivers stack up because most people either can't be bothered or don't want to look at a more complete package of car-driver-team-luck. That doesn't mean hardcore F1 fans but the dabblers: I went to Yeongam for the race last year and found that the vast majority of Koreans there were Vettel fans. Maybe they support him for his lovely personality, or maybe it's because at that stage he had won the last two championships and was on his way to a third, so they thought he was the best driver. It reminded me slightly of going to Tanzania a couple of months ago to find that everyone is a fan of Manchester United; the odd Man City shirt was starting to creep in as well. The team that wins the Premiership is almost always the team that deserves it. That is the case in F1 as well; the team that deserves it. Yet that doesn't take away from Alonso or Hamilton's abilities in the slightest; it was their teams that let them down. When I chat to family or friends about 2012 Vettel, not Alonso, is the man of the hour. Vettel is the one being nominated for a Laureus Award. The WDC is the face F1 projects to the world. As a fan of the sport, I want to be confident it is the right face.

Privately, you may use any measure you want to rate and rank the drivers - F1 magazines have used all kinds of criteria over the years to have fun with the results.

However, the method chosen by the FIA is cumulative points based on finishing position. It is the most fair and objective means - which is why it is the standard for racing of all kinds.

When I heard in the closing stages of last season that Fangio and Schumacher were the only two drivers in F1 history who had won three titles in a row I pictured two drivers rising above their peers to another level, bestriding their eras like giants among men. Watching the way Vettel has joined that club makes me realise just how simplistic that picture was.

Although it is a simple concept, it is very difficult to achieve. That is why only 3 drivers of the 32 champions - and 15 multiple champions - have achieved it.

You misunderstand me. My point is that we should build up a picture of how a driver is performing from watching qualifying and race; the points are so arbitrary as a measure of pure driver's performance (see Hamilton 190 - 188 Button).

What do you mean, "the points are so arbitrary as a measure of performance"? The points system is not arbitrary at all, rather it is completely objective. Hamilton obtained 2 points more over the season than his teammate in terms of race finishes - as reflected by the points system.

If Alonso had lost the championship to Schumacher in 2006 because his car retired on route to an easy win a couple of times that wouldn't change Alonso's quality as a driver in the slightest. From watching 2012, I believe that Vettel was scrappy and that both Alonso and Hamilton were more consistently excellent than he was, particularly before Red Bull's upgrades in Singapore piled the rear downforce back on. In my eyes neither Alonso nor Hamilton needed to win the championship to be better than Vettel in 2012. The problem is, the wider world won't look deeply enough to see that.

While I think our subjective opinions are valid for the purpose of discussion, when it comes to judging F1 champions, the only system that is relevant is the WDC system. Points are awarded for achieving the goal (winning the race and placing through P10), according to the rules, and no quality points are given out.

Or perhaps your problem is that you read too much into his comments. One can do the same for Vettel.

If Alonso thinks that Hamilton is better than Vettel, he's entitled to have that opinion, and it's no different than someone from this forum holding that view. It's just that you, along with a bunch turn all his words into mindgames, somehow.

He can't praise Hamilton because then it's mindgames against Vettel. He can't praise Vettel either because then it'd be mindgames against Hamilton. If he says a bad word about either, it's also mindgames.

Well, what do you expect him to say when a journalist asks him a question?

If you still think Alonso (or Hamilton) isn't propping himself up and playing "games" with his statements then I don't know what to say.

Which is exactly the kind of behaviour that most likely affected in Alonso losing the title from a very winnable position. Unlike Vettel, who focuses on his job and team building, Alonso and Hamilton constantly seek to convince they're the best. Flawed personalities both.

Great way of phrasing it. That is one of the reasons why I don't understand people who claim Alonso/Hamilton has perfect years and it was the team who screwed them over. Yes, both drivers had a great season, but perfect is just overstating things.

If Alonso thinks that Hamilton is better than Vettel, he's entitled to have that opinion, and it's no different than someone from this forum holding that view. It's just that you, along with a bunch turn all his words into mindgames, somehow.

He can't praise Hamilton because then it's mindgames against Vettel. He can't praise Vettel either because then it'd be mindgames against Hamilton. If he says a bad word about either, it's also mindgames.

Alonso is, of course, entitled to his own opinion. And here at this forum, we are entitled to form opinions on Alonso's opinion. When Sebastian praises Alonso and Hamilton, while Alonso and Hamilton both chose to conveniently forget Sebastian's presence in the sport, I come to either of 2 conclusions: 1, that they are playing mind games to try to destabilize Sebastian or 2, they are very ungracious losers. Choosing option 1 seemed to me the lesser of 2 evils. (And yes, there maybe option 3, that Alonso and Hamilton are just far too in awe of each other to notice anyway else. But there is no fun in that option, is there? )

Alonso is, of course, entitled to his own opinion. And here at this forum, we are entitled to form opinions on Alonso's opinion. When Sebastian praises Alonso and Hamilton, while Alonso and Hamilton both chose to conveniently forget Sebastian's presence in the sport, I come to either of 2 conclusions: 1, that they are playing mind games to try to destabilize Sebastian or 2, they are very ungracious losers. Choosing option 1 seemed to me the lesser of 2 evils. (And yes, there maybe option 3, that Alonso and Hamilton are just far too in awe of each other to notice anyway else. But there is no fun in that option, is there? )

Alonso is, of course, entitled to his own opinion. And here at this forum, we are entitled to form opinions on Alonso's opinion. When Sebastian praises Alonso and Hamilton, while Alonso and Hamilton both chose to conveniently forget Sebastian's presence in the sport, I come to either of 2 conclusions: 1, that they are playing mind games to try to destabilize Sebastian or 2, they are very ungracious losers. Choosing option 1 seemed to me the lesser of 2 evils. (And yes, there maybe option 3, that Alonso and Hamilton are just far too in awe of each other to notice anyway else. But there is no fun in that option, is there? )

Or they dont rate him as high as you want them to. Whats wrong with that? They have been team mates they know how good they both are. Only sore losers are vettel fans who cant accept not everyone thinks he's the best thing since sliced cheese.

Lol, now we have multiple threads with people vehemently arguing whether Vettel is a great driver or not. The new season just can't come soon enough for these people just to have something new to debate.

Mods deleted driver threads, but now we have multiple Vettel threads. It reminds me of what happens to dragons, when you cut their heads off.

Lol, now we have multiple threads with people vehemently arguing whether Vettel is a great driver or not. The new season just can't come soon enough for these people just to have something new to debate.

Mods deleted driver threads, but now we have multiple Vettel threads. It reminds me of what happens to dragons, when you cut their heads off.

Totally agreed! Come on 2013 I say.

As for multiple Sebastian threads, it cannot be helped when people like to use his name in conversation. Notice how both threads were people commenting on him, and neither had anything to do with what he himself said? I think controversy courts him (as compared to other drivers who court controversy *coughperezcough*).

Back on track, anyone else has spotted the similarity between Dr. Marko and Alonso in terms of motivation? Both think that publicly listing the worst side of their team members will improve team morale. And while Webber has shown he can take it (and give it back in return), I wonder how long it will take before the people at Maranello get fed up. Or is this no longer the team that sacked Alain Prost?

Back on track, anyone else has spotted the similarity between Dr. Marko and Alonso in terms of motivation? Both think that publicly listing the worst side of their team members will improve team morale. And while Webber has shown he can take it (and give it back in return), I wonder how long it will take before the people at Maranello get fed up. Or is this no longer the team that sacked Alain Prost?

You mean Alonso criticising the car development? The question should be how long until Alonso is fed up and leaves. They need him a lot more than he needs them. Just imagine where the team would be since 2010 with Massa as the lead driver. One of the lowest era's for the team in its history, and they know it. Alonso runs Ferrari not Stefano, he is just Alonso's yes man. He should give them one last chance then go back to Mclaren.

You mean Alonso criticising the car development? The question should be how long until Alonso is fed up and leaves. They need him a lot more than he needs them. Just imagine where the team would be since 2010 with Massa as the lead driver. One of the lowest era's for the team in its history, and they know it. Alonso runs Ferrari not Stefano, he is just Alonso's yes man. He should give them one last chance then go back to Mclaren.

Lol, this sounds quite funny in several ways. Have you been an employee of a company? I think then you should know about things like common goals, harmony, motivation, inspiring, co-operation, and so on. Even a very good employee doesn't exist in isolation, but the whole organization is like an organism, which functions well if everything is in good health. Maybe that's why Ferrari is struggling to keep up with development. Not so good harmony and Alonso doesn't contribute to it either.Alternatively I missed the irony in the post.

Lol, this sounds quite funny in several ways. Have you been an employee of a company? I think then you should know about things like common goals, harmony, motivation, inspiring, co-operation, and so on. Even a very good employee doesn't exist in isolation, but the whole organization is like an organism, which functions well if everything is in good health. Maybe that's why Ferrari is struggling to keep up with development. Not so good harmony and Alonso doesn't contribute to it either.Alternatively I missed the irony in the post.

On that note, I wonder how Ferrari heads worked out that Alonso was a better development driver than Kimi...

Or they dont rate him as high as you want them to. Whats wrong with that? They have been team mates they know how good they both are. Only sore losers are vettel fans who cant accept not everyone thinks he's the best thing since sliced cheese.

What do you mean, "the points are so arbitrary as a measure of performance"? The points system is not arbitrary at all, rather it is completely objective. Hamilton obtained 2 points more over the season than his teammate in terms of race finishes - as reflected by the points system.

I said: "the points are so arbitrary as a measure of pure driver's performance." You very conveniently missed out the two italicised words. So you believe the points tally will always rank the drivers in exactly the order they performed over a season? I'm sure your view would be exactly the same if Vettel had retired six times last season through no fault of his own, three times from the lead.

Yes really. Alonso does not have number 1 status until his team mate is out of title contention. Standard policy with every team. Vettel has it from the start, proven by taking webbers front wing early in the season.

The question should be how long until Alonso is fed up and leaves. They need him a lot more than he needs them.

Yes, because when Alonso is fed up, with how big a property he is, he will go to......McLaren? Didn't quite work out last time, did it?...Red Bull? I don't see why they wouldn't decline him again....Lotus? No way that Alonso fits in their current culture.

He could possibly take a step back and go to Mercedes. Possibly...Alonso's career management has left him in a position where he is in no position to make demands.

I think the mods should step in and clean up some mess started by a single new troll to bring the thread back on topic.

I highly advise fellow sensible posters to use that great 'ignore user' option as even laughable stupidities get a bit tiresome after some time.

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What do you think guys, will this little exchange of opinions between Marko and Alonso go on into this new season? Or will the Dr. comment in depth only after the season as he did last year?

I've reported. So it would be great if everyone else who stop engaging the troll as well.

I think Dr. Marko might make comment during summer break if it ticks his fancy. Otherwise, he'll probably stick to off-season. As for Alonso, his twitter feed should keep us entertained throughout the season.

I said: "the points are so arbitrary as a measure of pure driver's performance." You very conveniently missed out the two italicised words. So you believe the points tally will always rank the drivers in exactly the order they performed over a season? I'm sure your view would be exactly the same if Vettel had retired six times last season through no fault of his own, three times from the lead.

Of course my view would be the same. I am also a huge Kimi fan from 2001 onward.

The point system does not rank the drivers. The point system ranks the "Car + Driver Combination" (which includes everything that impacts the car and driver on race day). In light of that, the points system ranks the "combination" exactly in the order it performs over a season.

The point system does not "specifically" tell you that Vettel/RBR achieved #1 in the 2010 ranking when Vettel was just 23 years old. It does not tell you that Raikkonen/Macca drove a startling race at SPA 2005. It does not tell you that Grosjean/Lotus negated all points for Alonso/Ferrari and Hamilton/Macca at SPA 2012. It does not tell you that Hamilton/Macca was leading the race in Singapore before he was taken out with a reliability issue, with Vettel/RBR in second. It does not tell you Vettel/RBR led the USGP till he was passed by Hamilton/Macca. Nor does it advise that Alonso/Ferrari's win in Malaysia 2012 was rainsoaked.

But each of the scenarios above is incorporated into the points: Vettel/RBR got the cup; Raikkonen/Macca got the win, Grosjean/Lotus got the ban and no points and Alonso/Ferrari and Hamilton/Macca got no points, Hamilton/Macca again got no points and Vettel/RBR won, Hamilton/Macca won and Vettel/RBR got second, and finally Alonso/Ferrari got the win.

In the end, the points system reflects exactly what transpired throughout the season using points. The how's and why's are left to the humans to debate, argue, discuss, agree and disagree about.

This is why Marko is 100% correct in that Alonso's comments regarding Newey, Hamilton and Vettel, etc., are ignorable. They have no relevance to the focus of racing, which is the maximization of points.

I see your point, but I'm confused about why you think the jury is still out on the matter. I thought its clear as day that Seb is not "Latin" and that if he is ever going to have an "aura" he would have it by now.

It's very charitable of you to allow for the possibility that Seb will one day all of a sudden turn Latin, develop an aura, and join the ranks of Alonso in your list.

I'm so glad we have this thng called a "race" where there are objective winners and once the helmet goes on the outcome does not depend on whether you are Latin or not.

Going off very much on the wrong note there, boldhakka. Anyway, to me it will be visible when Vettel will be around 30, 31 - the aura of Seb is presently still that of a youth. If anything, Latins show that "aura" maybe a few years earlier, but you will surely be able to recognize it in Vettel - at the moment he has many pleasant and appealing characteristics, besides being a great driver - but he is not yet there in the personality department.

That and the way he will be driving when he is 30ish. At the moment I see him crashing too much through the midfield (in safety car periods and without safety car) and that should but will not necessarily disappear when Seb is 30, 31.

Many reckon Schumacher's greatest seasons to have been the years 96 - 2000, and Michael did not win many WDCs in that stretch of years in which he was arguably at his peak. Similarily, we see possibly Fernando's greatest seasons right now - and with Seb it might be similar: he may not be able to become WDC in five, six years, but he may (and very possibly will) be a much better driver then.

So you got it wrong again with "objective winners". The real winners sometimes don't win in the stats, but they win something more: universal respect and appreciation. Schumacher being a case in point, Alonso - and perhaps Vettel five years from now.

I repeat, championships are the ultimate goal for all the drivers, but what is the purpose of a championship? It doesn't mean anything beyond where it places you in the history of the sport. It is, essentially, a validation of your position as one of the elite group of drivers.

Clark and Moss for example did not care that much about championships as Schumacher did (although he said he never cared for statistics - which is in itself revelatory). With Seb we know how much he cares for the history of the sport and I can imagine him sitting in his kitchen, looking at the WDC cup ("almost a mystic ritual" - as he himself termed it) and seeing his name there a multiple number of times more.

And it will come to pass if that is his focus - never underestimate the powers of the mind and the power of belief ("never stop believing, boys!" - in Vettel's own words). I am sure that Clark and Moss were not as obsessed with titles and with Alonso we know that it is his wish to equal the three titles of Ayrton Senna - he never stated any further ambition.

So "championships are the ultimate goal for all the drivers" is your premise, but possibly a faulty one.