As Seen in Vanity Fair's August 2006 Issue!
As Seen in US News & World Report's September 11 Fifth Anniversary Issue!
As Seen in Time Magazine's September 11, 2006 Issue!
As Seen in Phoenix New Times' August 9, 2007 Issue!

Saturday, July 09, 2011

It's Not a Bug, It's a Feature

The Truthers continue their usual backbiting, schisms, and mutual accusations of being government operatives. This is no surprise, when a movement does not have reality to give them a common foundation, these types of things happen. What is amusing though, is the complete lack of self-awareness on this point. A post on Truth Action makes this point:

In my opinion, the Truth Action forum is the most important 9/11 truth forum. Regular posters here are among the most thoughtful and broadly aware of those participating in 9/11 truth. To post here is to stand up to total scrutiny. We try to set the bar as high as the stakes. No time for wackiness.

But there's something missing. Certainly the elephant in the room.

I believe, based on a good deal of direct experience as well as an awareness of social movement history, that this movement has been heavily subverted by dishonest people.

But we don't talk about it much. Why?

He then goes on to list all the people who he thinks is dishonest. Of course what he fails to mention, is the people he lists make the same accusations about his faction.

And they are both right.

This type of dishonesty paired with paranoia is not incidental, it is an essential part of the movement, or any conspiracy theory for that matter. As we say in the software world, it's not a bug, it's a feature!

"We're not MIHOP, we're not LIHOP, we don't have working theories about anything, other Truthers hate us, debunkers laugh at us, most of us disagree with each other, and we're really tired of doing this. But we're RIGHT, dammit."

John Wood, that's the amazing thing about Guitar Bill. He keeps coming up with one fantasy after another that he thinks positively shows that the troofers are FOS. And every one of them turns out to be a dud.

Here's the problem, Snug; if truthers can't even determine which claim is the best among themselves, and attack proponents of competing theories, who are they to determine the official story is wrong? In fact, why the insistence on claiming people in the TM who make it look like idiots are gov't agents, or ignoring it entirely? I think it's to avoid confronting the reality that the other guy might be honestly wrong, just like they are.

I don't go there because if I took on the squadrons of flying monkeys there, I'd never get any work done at all.

"Take on"? Brian, since when have you ever taken on anything in your life? Your life is a huge tragicomic failure. You're a middle-aged man with no job, no friends, no family and no apparent interests except posting endless dumbspam about invisible widows, magic thermite elves, and the man you once called a "strutting, bragging, lying, hot sexy hunk of Latin manhood".

The goat fucker squeals, "...John Wood, that's the amazing thing about Guitar Bill. He keeps coming up with one fantasy after another that he thinks positively shows that the troofers are FOS. And every one of them turns out to be a dud."

John Wood, please recognize that any idiot with a space-aliens theory can infect the truth movement and create the impression that truthers can't agree. It's bullshit. What we can agree on is that the official reports we have been given can not be believed.

Brian, we've had believable investigations. Nobody cares what you think of the investigations because, as you've proven again and again, you don't understand a thing about 9/11. It's not exactly surprising considering that you're a failed janitor.

And... So what? Pols have shown 18 of people think the Sun revolves around the Earth, and lets not forget that majority who think god created use all. All that shows is people opinions mean nothing, in the same vain that questions mean nothing. Reality is not a matter of public opinion.

Things tend to wash out in time, and after 10 years truthers are still in the wrong, after over 40 years JFK conspiracy theorist are still wrong, Roswell loonies are still loons, and on and on.

20, 30, 40, years from now YOU will still be the idiot conspiracy theorist chump, and I the guy who told you so.

John Wood, please recognize that any idiot with a space-aliens theory can infect the truth movement and create the impression that truthers can't agree. It's bullshit. What we can agree on is that the official reports we have been given can not be believed.

And those are just what I can think of off the top of my head. The baffling thing is that criticism should lead to stronger points, yet you lot are just frantically finger-pointing at each other, declaring that the other guy is wrong, and simultaneously declaring that their theory is the "obvious" one. It's like a guy in the straitjacket at the asylum going "you gotta get me outta here! There guys are crazy!"

It's a 9/11 Truth movement. We want believable investigations.

You want ego validation. I do wonder why an investigation is needed, if so many Truthers claim to have uncovered "obvious" proof of a conspiracy that somehow slipped by a multi-million-dollar multi-agency investigation comprising thousands of agents.

It's not a 9/11 idiot theories movement.

Said the guy who believes thermite can be sprayed onto the inside of columns.

No it doesn't. The public also believes in ghosts, UFOs, Angels, and their beliefs about climate change is directly linked to their political leanings and not on the science (which is somewhere in the middle anyway).

The American public once supported segregation of African-Americans from white society.

No, it doesn't. Not hen you're talking about what is the truth and what isn't. Truth is not decided by democracy. If it was, Christianity would be accurate, Peyton Manning would indisputably be better than Tom Brady, and the Earth was, in fact, flat until it was proved not to be.

FACTS decide truth, not majority opinion. The real reason you and other truthers try to attach some significance to polls like this is because it's in a vain attempt to lend your movement credibility.

Of course, even if we DID give a shit about this poll you mention, and I'm assuming it's accurate because I'm not actually sure which poll you're referring to, it still wouldn't make a difference. It was back in 2006, you said? That was at the height of the truth movement's influence. That was five fucking years ago. Who gives a shit about what people thought back then? What do you think that poll would say now? The 9/11 Truth Movement has pretty much become another fringe, lunatic conspiracy theory in the minds of the public (and indeed, in reality). I speculate that if you ran the same poll, you'd have polarized results.

Ah, so MGF, like DK, believes he is smarter than everybody else and has only contempt for the American people and for democracy. Thanks for showing what you are.

Quite despicable. All MGF did was give several notable examples of how public opinion doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. Public opinion can be influenced by things other than rational analysis, and is subject to change depending on a variety of factors. That's why it's quite possible that back in 2006, there may indeed have been only 16% who told a particular pollster that they believed the government had told the truth (which does not necessarily mean 9/11 truth for the other 84%, but for the sake of argument...). That number, however, would probably be very different today, and even if it wasn't, wouldn't have any impact on the legitimacy of the 9/11 Truth Movement.

That was the point being made, but you twist this into saying MGF thinks he's smarter than everyone else. In addition to being total bullshit, as he doesn't say anything so arrogant, it's also hilariously hypocritical. Do you listen to yourself, Brian? It wasn't all that long ago that you were talking about what a skillful researcher and insightful analyst you were. Remember? You said how you have "much to offer in these times". After that, you started handing out "character defects" to anyone who didn't match your standards. This is all in the last week, Brian. I know I've seen you use this same sort of rhetoric for only the few months that I've been here.

Quite frankly, Brian, you are one of the most arrogant sons of a bitch that I've ever known. So to hear you negatively insinuate that someone else thinks they're smarter than everybody else is hilarious.

Your other point is that MGF must have contempt for American people and for democracy. Where the fuck do you get that from? He cited ACCURATE examples of why your logic is fucking retarded. You take these facts and they apparently trouble you so much that you accuse him of hating democracy? This is pure, unfiltered, fucking ad hominem.

Jonn, dueling theories are not what it's about. What it's about is getting answers to specific questions--like what does it say in the 28 redacted pages from the joint House/Senate inquiry?

Fishing expidition, argument from ignorance.

New investigations are needed because the ones we had were now open, not honest,

National security matters tend to be secret, and perhaps you missed a the 9/11 Commission report and the NIST reports.

not complete,

Opinion.

and are not believable.

No, they're not believed. By you. and other people Plenty of people believe them, such as the engineers who have used the NIST whitepaper to improve fire resistance in buildings built since 9/11.

Thermite can be sprayed into the interior of columns.

Bald assertion, not a single link to evidence, much less non-truther evidence.

Have you ever operated a paint spray gun?

Attempt to imply a link between two things. In this case, the fact that paint spray guns exist, and the claim that sprayable thermite exists. I could pull the same trick with a ham sandwich, but that doesn't mean sprayable ham sandwiches exist, though it is an interesting, and delicious, concept.

Also, snug, you stated that Truthers don't argue among themselves. I gave you several examples of competing theories, and you said that it's not what the movement is about. Given that you used the term "dueling theories", this means you are admitting that the theories are competing with each other.

I said "Public opinion still counts for something in a democracy," and you changed the subject to truth.

The issue came up when Ian claimed that the investigations we've had are believable, and I said that as of 5 years ago only 16% of the American people agreed with that. And then the "public be damned" issue came up. As a political reality, public opinion counts. If the people don't trust their government, doesn't that suggest the need for further investigation so that people can have a little more confidence in the reports?

Public perception of the truth movement and public perception of the dishonesty of the official investigations are two different things. I don't know how the public perceives the truth movement, and certainly bigots like Barrett and swindlers like Rodriguez and lunatics like Ranke and Balsamo color that perception. Also, many perceive the movement as a "9/11 Inside Job"movement.

If as you say public opinion "doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things" then hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths in Iraq don't mean anything either, because public opinion allowed that to happen. Maybe you're an all-transcendent guru or something but I'm not.

I said "Public opinion still counts for something in a democracy," and you changed the subject to truth.

Wrong, you fucking idiot. You weren't just making a general statement. You were trying to use that as an argument for 9/11 truth having legitimacy. So yes, you were arguing exactly what I said you were arguing. That public opinion has any measure or impact whatsoever on reality.

As a political reality, public opinion counts. If the people don't trust their government, doesn't that suggest the need for further investigation so that people can have a little more confidence in the reports?

No. Nobody trusts the government. Everyone with half a neuron knows that modern politics aren't 100% trustworthy. Regardless of this fact, many investigations into many of the aspects of the attack have been done by numerous entities, all of them having been very thorough and adequate. Whether people know it or not is irrelevant, it is factual.

Guess what, Brian? There was a poll from 2008 or so that said 66% of people in America don't believe in evolution. That's a distinct majority, and from even earlier than your poll. So by your logic, rather than call these people idiots and acknowledge the overwhelming evidence for evolution, we should actually stop and rethink for a moment, because maybe this 66% is really on to something. That's fucking retarded.

Public perception of the truth movement and public perception of the dishonesty of the official investigations are two different things.

Two different things that have an OBVIOUS FUCKING CORRELATION! If you think the 9/11 truth movement is whacko, you probably think the official story is pretty decent.

If as you say public opinion "doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things" then hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths in Iraq don't mean anything either, because public opinion allowed that to happen.

Where did I get the idea that MGF thinks he's smarter than everybody else and has contempt for democracy? Oh, from his denial that public opinion counts for something in a democracy.

Jonn, since when is a wish to see what's in the redacted pages of a congressional report and an explanation of why they were redacted a fishing expedition and an argument from ignorance?

The investigations are not believable when they tell us that the hijackers' source of funds is "of little practical significance" and when NIST tells us that the buildings came down "essentially in free fall" and tells obvious fairy stories about why.

Have you ever filled a bottle from a hose? If you can do that, you can drill a hole in a box column and spray thermite inside. Take iron oxide primer paint and mix in aluminum glitter powder (sold in paint stores) and you have sprayable thermite.

Most of the people in the truth movement who have theories are disruptors and their theories are dumb. Thoughtful researchers restrict themselves to calling for new investigations and avoid unnecessary theorizing. Mostly the facts speak for themselves.

Arcterus, I said "Public opinion still counts for something in a democracy." I didn't say "public opinion is truth." Your belief that public opinion has no impact on reality. Is absurd. If public opinion had been different, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis now dead would still be alive, and the USA would not be a torture state.

Your belief that the investigations have been "thorough and adequate' is absurd. The 9/11 Commission has the 114 omissions and distortions, the widows' 300 questions remain 91% unanswered, and NIST did not explain the most baffling aspects of the collapses.

Finally, you seem to be missing the logical possibility that large numbers of people think the truth movement is largely whackos, but they also distrust the government reports. Since there are a number of people who seem to be devoting their lives to making the truth movement look bad, I would not be surprised if this group is large.

You seem to devote a large portion of your intelligence to inventing reasons not to think. Beware. Keep up like that and you'll wind up like UtterFail--old and bitter and useless and self-deceiving.

Where did I get the idea that MGF thinks he's smarter than everybody else and has contempt for democracy? Oh, from his denial that public opinion counts for something in a democracy.

First of all, he's not "denying" anything like that. Second, there's no fucking connection between those two things.

Arcterus, I said "Public opinion still counts for something in a democracy." I didn't say "public opinion is truth."

Good idea, just ignore the part where I pointed out the context of what you said. It'll make you look more right.

Your belief that public opinion has no impact on reality. Is absurd.

WHEN did I say THAT!?

If public opinion had been different, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis now dead would still be alive, and the USA would not be a torture state.

This is a totally different animal from what we were talking about, and is also completely inaccurate. Public opinion did not kill anybody. Public opinion helped (but was not necessarily necessary) start a war, during which atrocious policies resulted in soldiers torturing Iraqis.

Your belief that the investigations have been "thorough and adequate' is absurd. The 9/11 Commission has the 114 omissions and distortions, the widows' 300 questions remain 91% unanswered, and NIST did not explain the most baffling aspects of the collapses.

Everything you say there is either a lie or is irrelevant.

Finally, you seem to be missing the logical possibility that large numbers of people think the truth movement is largely whackos, but they also distrust the government reports.

I did not dismiss that possibility at all. In fact, I'm sure that's the only reason that your poll number was as low as it was. However, unlike you, I didn't make the retarded mistake of thinking reasonable distrust and not believing in pure, 100% honesty would be the equivalent of starting an entirely new and separate investigation.

You seem to devote a large portion of your intelligence to inventing reasons not to think.

You seem to devote a large portion of your stupidity to evading after I've delivered an intellectual knockout.

Beware. Keep up like that and you'll wind up like UtterFail--old and bitter and useless and self-deceiving.

Well Brian anyone here is smarter that YOU, a mere janitor in ability.

And public opinion does mean nothing in a democracy, there was a time when public opinion was blacks and whites should not mix. the more enlightened members ignored that one same way the more enlightened members of the US now ignore silly little kook like truthers.

Your issues Brian is you are one of the knuckle draggers who has an idea his opinions matter more than bright informed people, sorry, you are only good as a object lesson in how NOT to think.

Your belief that the investigations have been "thorough and adequate' is absurd. The 9/11 Commission has the 114 omissions and distortions, the widows' 300 questions remain 91% unanswered, and NIST did not explain the most baffling aspects of the collapses.

What did I just say about deranged beliefs?

Since there are a number of people who seem to be devoting their lives to making the truth movement look bad, I would not be surprised if this group is large.

Brian, the only people who make the truth movement look bad are the truthers.

"Have you ever filled a bottle from a hose? If you can do that, you can drill a hole in a box column and spray thermite inside. Take iron oxide primer paint and mix in aluminum glitter powder (sold in paint stores) and you have sprayable thermite."

Now that one is too stupid for words! No wonder you only can get a job mopping floors.

I could spend lots of time explaining why this would never work, but because you have the IQ the same as your hat size it would never register with you.

Good thing you live with your parents, you would starve if you had to live off your skills and wit.

"Since there are a number of people who seem to be devoting their lives to making the truth movement look bad,"

Yep, heard the same thing said about the KKK.

You can't find a bright truther, you may have had some reasonably smart but deluded years ago, but they now want to have nothing to do with the kooks and now pretend they never were truthers to begin with.

If you're going to make shit up, and thermite in the WTC is making shit up, then go wild.

Brian still hasn't been able to counter the evidence that modified attack baboons planted micro-nukes in the towers. I guess that's why Bill Deagle is an eminent truther scholar while Brian is a failed janitor who was expelled from the truth movement.

And Arcterus is unaware of his own words. When did he say public opinion has no impact on rsality? When he said I was wrong to argue that "public opinion has any measure or impact whatsoever on reality."

Public opinion was necessary to start the war. If you believe that the president has the power to order a war that the people don't want, then you must think democracy is dead.

Your belief that you delivered an intellectual knockout it a hoot, anklebiter.

"And DK thinks he can explain how you can't fill a bottle from a hose."

You can't if the bottle has holes in them. You see Brian being much more informed than you will ever be, I know the beams had access holes them to allow workers to reach the nut and bolts used to attach the beams together.

So you have this uninformed retarded janitor who want you to believe workers ripped out wall just to seal these access holes and then pump in thermite and somehow devise a way of igniting hundreds of separate thermite impregnated beams, and them hope it works because nobody has ever done a controlled demolition in this fashion. you do know thermite is not easily lit?

We see true stupidity at work here, but who would expect more from Brian.

Yes, DK, the perimeter columns (not "beams") have an access port at the base which Jonathan Cole has shown would permit the insertion of explosive or incendiary charges in the base of those columns. He also has an interesting photo taken of the outside of the building showing where six of those perimeter columns are red hot--at the base, while the 6 columns in between (for which that floor is not the base level) are not.

The core columns were welded and had no such access holes. Perhaps if you would bother to actually learn something about 9/11 instead of becoming an expert on how dumb you believe truthers are, then perhaps your ideas would not be so goofy. But obviously you have little interest in 9/11, and a whole lot of interest in feeling superior.

It is easy to be superior to truthers, and even more so to you, you are a major loser in life who is kidding himself he has worth as anything more than a guy who mops floors and eats off mom and dad.

I have made this point before, you can tell the value of a cause by the people it attracts. You never see enlightened truthers, only people like you, low of IQ, not very well informed. And that would come across if we both met with a large group of people, I would come across as smart, informed and witty. And you would just be that dullard loser janitor guy who pimps conspiracy theorist tripe. Shit fellow truthers couldn’t even stand you.

So yes Brian, I and all the other debunkers here ARE superior to you and all the other truthers. It may not be a PC thing to say, but it sure is true.

DK, I've said that I'm the janitor of the truth movement--I take out trash like Willie Turdriguez and Kevin Barrett and Craig Ranke before they stink the place up too bad. Is that why you believe I make my living as a janitor? Do you think Hunt, Liddy, and Colson fixed Nixon's drains?

Why would you expect the people in Stairwell B to be burned by thermite?

Why would you expect the people in Stairwell B to be burned by thermite?

To prove once and for all that you're a fucking idiot Brian, a person with limited reasoning skills, a person who can't tell the difference between the truth and an out right lie (i.e. your claims/theories) and a person who humiliates himself to such a degree that people in the same "movement" banishes him out of their "organisation" because they feel that he's making them look like complete jackasses.

Truth is Brian, noone likes you and noone cares what you think cause you're a failure!

"Why would you expect the people in Stairwell B to be burned by thermite?"

Again you prove your ignorance so well. The stairs and the elevators were located in the core structure, and were only protected by thick drywall. any large amounts of heat would be felt by them being so close to the core beams and all. But you having the mentality of a janitor would never be able to reason something so simple.

Again this is my point, truthers are made up of people like YOU, idiots and losers and people see that. that is the only reason you are still here, you prove the debunkers point so well.

And now this mental midget what to deny his only real skill, janitorial services. You sure don't have skills for anything more do you?

"Partly-burned bodies found on lower floors would raise all kinds of questions."

Again your retard thinking is showing. Burned bodies were found throughout the rubble. The people in stairway B were not burned due to careful planing by plotters, but by the fact there was no thermite in those areas.

Brian you should do the country favor and kill yourself thereby raising the IQ level of the US.

Poor Brian, he's been pwn3d again by me, and he knows it, so he slinks away. Hey, at least as he flees from me, he isn't squealing and crying the way he was when Willie Rodriguez challenged him to a debate.

I didn't run away from anything. Here I am, here the con artist and fraudster William Rodriguez is not. The fat-ass has been afraid for almost four years now to show his face in the Bay Area and he can't even get on Carol Brouillet's radio show.

I didn't run away from anything. Here I am, here the con artist and fraudster William Rodriguez is not. The fat-ass has been afraid for almost four years now to show his face in the Bay Area and he can't even get on Carol Brouillet's radio show.

False. You're a liar who ran away squealing and crying from Rodriguez when he challenged you. That's because you know he's a hero and you know that you're a failed janitor and pervert who was expelled from the truth movement for stalking members of the group.

I didn't run away from anything. Here I am, and here William Turdriguez, the swindler who stole his hero story from a dead man, isn't. Not even his sock puppet sabba is here.

Hey WillRod Bitch, I am here. We are all waiting for the last year for you to prove I am one oh his sock puppets. Like everything else you claim, you cannot prove it. I gave you the same opportunity Willie gave to you. To face me on a debate and unmask my identity. You ran away like a pussy, the same way you ran away from Rodriguez. Trying to cover the fact that you are a coward by claiming others here are sock puppets of Rod, will not erase the proven and established notion that you are a sex stalker and that you failed to Fuck Carol Brouillett. In fact you will never fuck her in your life, let alone any other woman as long as they google your name.

Hayou called C-Span yet?Have you called Carol to arrange your debate yet?Bitch!

And that was his job during a period of unprecedented prosperity when people could pretty much have any job they wanted. Why did he want to spend those boom years hiding in a stairwell? Why were his options so limited? Could his limited options have something to do with his decision to make the most of his 9/11 experience at the expense of his personal integrity, if any?

You didn't answer the question. Yes, NYC has high-paid contract janitors. Entrepreneurial contract maintenance workers are very well paid for their reliability, diligence, and trustworthiness.

But Willie wasn't an entrepreneur. He was a wage-slave with the crummiest assignment in the building--picking up cigarette butts and used condoms. You think $35 k was a lot of money in NYC when he could have made a lot more money as an independent?

You think $35 k was a lot of money in NYC when he could have made a lot more money as an independent?yep, I believe that 35K in the 90's was a lot of money, add to that the overtime he probably did on weekends there and the moving jobs going on, could bring his take easily to 45 to 50K. Good fricking money IMHO, Bitch!

When he could have been making three times as much... How do you know? did you prepared his taxes to know how much exactly was he making?

Something's wrong with this picture.Exactly, you have no proof or idea of exactly how much he actually made, if he worked overtime on other duties (He did) and if he was using other skills to make money in other areas. By the way , you are still talking about WR when you claimed he was a "non issue", "non entity" and that he will never be in the news? Have you called Carol yet?Have you arranged your debate on her show yet?have you fucked her yet?

Evidence? Justin Keogh said it was in the 9/11 Commission notes, that Willie said he often saw people having sex in the stairwell. It was his job to clean up after them. And he did that for six years through the greatest prosperity in history?

Didn't it occur to him that it might be a lot more fun to be a limo driver and drive the whores over to Wall Street than it was to pick up the condoms in the stairwells?

So that question remains. Why did Willie spend six years in the midst of the greatest prosperity in history hiding in the tallest closet in the world, picking up used condoms? Because the money was so good it was an offer he couldn't refuse?

So that question remains. Why did Willie spend six years in the midst of the greatest prosperity in history hiding in the tallest closet in the world, picking up used condoms? Because the money was so good it was an offer he couldn't refuse?

Brian, that question is ridiculous and only shows how much of a sexual obsession you have with the man. Seek professional help.

There's nothing silly about the question. The man is a skilled salesman and obviously craves the limelight. So why was he hiding in a windowless closet all by himself day after day, month after month, year after dreary year--when the world was overflowing with opportunity?

There's nothing silly about the question. The man is a skilled salesman and obviously craves the limelight. So why was he hiding in a windowless closet all by himself day after day, month after month, year after dreary year--when the world was overflowing with opportunity?

Brian, all this dumbspam doesn't change the fact that Rodriguez is a hero and you are a failed janitor who believes in modified attack baboons.