Just further proof that preseason polls and All American teams are silly. No poll should be made, and the word Heisman shouldn't be spoken until halfway through the conference season when teams are about 7 or 8 total games in.

The Heisman thing is arguably worse, because you got a guy like Kenjon Barner who seemingly has to make up ground over guys crowned earlier like Manti Teo and Collin Klein. And look at how silly most people look now for taking Geno Smith over the field because he torched Baylor's high school defense.

coolio mack:The Heisman thing is arguably worse, because you got a guy like Kenjon Barner who

only get to play half the game most weeks because their team is so overpowering on offense....

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be pulling him after a half because it is absolutely the right thing to do but I bet his season stats will get looked at as "not enough yards, TDs etc." because he does get reduced playing time.

coolio mack:Just further proof that preseason polls and All American teams are silly. No poll should be made, and the word Heisman shouldn't be spoken until halfway through the conference season when teams are about 7 or 8 total games in.

I've never really understood this point. The polls are all designed for discussion anyway, except for the final poll of the season. So why wait until week 8? Why not just have one poll at the end of the season that's used for the BCS/AP champions. I don't get what advantage waiting until seven or eight weeks gains.

ghall3:coolio mack: The Heisman thing is arguably worse, because you got a guy like Kenjon Barner who only get to play half the game most weeks because their team is so overpowering on offense....

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be pulling him after a half because it is absolutely the right thing to do but I bet his season stats will get looked at as "not enough yards, TDs etc." because he does get reduced playing time.

Agreed. When Barner gets to play a full game: 300+ yds, 5 TDs. Sadly for him, that's only happened once. You've GOT to pull him when you're up 56-0 at halftime,however.

coolio mack:The Heisman thing is arguably worse, because you got a guy like Kenjon Barner who seemingly has to make up ground over guys crowned earlier like Manti Teo and Collin Klein.

While I wholly agree with the Barner for Heisman train, when did Klein get crowned? Also, Teo got crowned a ways into the year, right? The one drawback to not watching ESPN except when a game is on and tuning out the announcers is that I don't know who's hyped anymore.

coolio mack:Just further proof that preseason polls and All American teams are silly. No poll should be made, and the word Heisman shouldn't be spoken until halfway through the conference season when teams are about 7 or 8 total games in.

The Heisman thing is arguably worse, because you got a guy like Kenjon Barner who seemingly has to make up ground over guys crowned earlier like Manti Teo and Collin Klein. And look at how silly most people look now for taking Geno Smith over the field because he torched Baylor's high school defense.

There is nothing wrong with the preseason poll in my opinion. It starts the discussion about who is good and who everybody expects to win. However after the season starts it really shouldn't be referenced anymore except to use to point at a team and go "Haha".

rugman11:coolio mack: Just further proof that preseason polls and All American teams are silly. No poll should be made, and the word Heisman shouldn't be spoken until halfway through the conference season when teams are about 7 or 8 total games in.

I've never really understood this point. The polls are all designed for discussion anyway, except for the final poll of the season. So why wait until week 8? Why not just have one poll at the end of the season that's used for the BCS/AP champions. I don't get what advantage waiting until seven or eight weeks gains.

Pre-season polls are a HUGE advantage to those teams fortunate enough to be ranked in them. And the higher the pre-season rank, the bigger the advantage. If you started off in the pre-season poll and lose....you don't drop out of that poll very easily. If you start off NOT on the pre-season poll, you need to work harder to claw your way onto that poll. Take USC for example. Pre-season #1, three losses later, they are still ranked. Or take Oregon (full disclosure - I'm a Duck). Because their pre-season rank was so high, it was much easier for them to get to number 2 in the polls. And unless they lose....it is very unlikely they will ever fall out of that #2 slot.

Now pretend we didn't have a pre-season poll and that the first rankings came out at the end of week 6 (or whenever all AQ schools have played 6 games). Now rankings reflect a body of work and you don't get 1-loss teams artificially ranked higher than unbeaten teams just because they started off higher in a poll created long before the first snap of the season.

ShamWowofDamocles:rugman11: coolio mack: Just further proof that preseason polls and All American teams are silly. No poll should be made, and the word Heisman shouldn't be spoken until halfway through the conference season when teams are about 7 or 8 total games in.

I've never really understood this point. The polls are all designed for discussion anyway, except for the final poll of the season. So why wait until week 8? Why not just have one poll at the end of the season that's used for the BCS/AP champions. I don't get what advantage waiting until seven or eight weeks gains.

Pre-season polls are a HUGE advantage to those teams fortunate enough to be ranked in them. And the higher the pre-season rank, the bigger the advantage. If you started off in the pre-season poll and lose....you don't drop out of that poll very easily. If you start off NOT on the pre-season poll, you need to work harder to claw your way onto that poll. Take USC for example. Pre-season #1, three losses later, they are still ranked. Or take Oregon (full disclosure - I'm a Duck). Because their pre-season rank was so high, it was much easier for them to get to number 2 in the polls. And unless they lose....it is very unlikely they will ever fall out of that #2 slot.

Now pretend we didn't have a pre-season poll and that the first rankings came out at the end of week 6 (or whenever all AQ schools have played 6 games). Now rankings reflect a body of work and you don't get 1-loss teams artificially ranked higher than unbeaten teams just because they started off higher in a poll created long before the first snap of the season.

But if the whole "body of work" is your argument, why not wait until the end of the season? What did we really know about Oregon and Alabama in week 6? Both teams had spent the first month crushing mediocre teams. Oregon's best win was against Arizona (ranked 28 according to Sagarin), but they still had games left against teams number 9, 15, 16, 18, and either 15 or 16 again. Bama's best win was against Michigan (22) but they still had games left against numbers 7, 10, and probably 11. Why would you argue that we know enough in week 6 to make rankings but not week 1?

And do you have any advantage that a high pre-season rank provides a team a "HUGE advantage"? You mention USC, but they're ranked 18th in the Coaches, 22nd in the Harris, and 20th in the computers. That seems like a pretty decent ranking to me. And the teams they're ahead of? LA Tech, Mississippi State, Rutgers, Northwestern, and Toledo have combined for all of two wins against BCS teams with winning records (Northwestern over Vandy and Toledo over Cincinnati).

It seems you think Louisville should be ranked higher simply due to the fact that they're undefeated but, while the human polls have them ranked 10th, they're currently ranked 15th in the computers. They'd need to be ranked #1 overall (and with a hefty number of first place votes) in order to move above Georgia. I mean, what do you think should be valued more: going 9-0 against the 105th ranked schedule and having played zero games against the top 30 (Louisville), or going 8-1 with 3 wins over top 10 teams and your only loss coming to #11 (Florida)? Louisville is as low as they are because they've played a crap schedule, not because of bias in the preseason polls. I mean, the preseason AP poll had K-State ranked 22nd, Louisville ranked 25th, and Notre Dame ranked 26th. Louisville is being held back by their schedule, not the polls.

rugman11:ShamWowofDamocles: rugman11: coolio mack: Just further proof that preseason polls and All American teams are silly. No poll should be made, and the word Heisman shouldn't be spoken until halfway through the conference season when teams are about 7 or 8 total games in.

I've never really understood this point. The polls are all designed for discussion anyway, except for the final poll of the season. So why wait until week 8? Why not just have one poll at the end of the season that's used for the BCS/AP champions. I don't get what advantage waiting until seven or eight weeks gains.

Pre-season polls are a HUGE advantage to those teams fortunate enough to be ranked in them. And the higher the pre-season rank, the bigger the advantage. If you started off in the pre-season poll and lose....you don't drop out of that poll very easily. If you start off NOT on the pre-season poll, you need to work harder to claw your way onto that poll. Take USC for example. Pre-season #1, three losses later, they are still ranked. Or take Oregon (full disclosure - I'm a Duck). Because their pre-season rank was so high, it was much easier for them to get to number 2 in the polls. And unless they lose....it is very unlikely they will ever fall out of that #2 slot.

Now pretend we didn't have a pre-season poll and that the first rankings came out at the end of week 6 (or whenever all AQ schools have played 6 games). Now rankings reflect a body of work and you don't get 1-loss teams artificially ranked higher than unbeaten teams just because they started off higher in a poll created long before the first snap of the season.

But if the whole "body of work" is your argument, why not wait until the end of the season? What did we really know about Oregon and Alabama in week 6? Both teams had spent the first month crushing mediocre teams. Oregon's best win was against Arizona (ranked 28 according to Sagarin), but they still had games left against teams number 9, 15, 16, 18, and eit ...

You're ascribing way too much thought and analysis to the poll voters. Florida State has played a worse schedule than Louisville (according to Sagarin) and has one loss, and yet they're ranked higher in the AP poll. Rankings are as much an indicator of the reputation of the school as anything else, which is why schools like ND can rise so quickly and schools like FSU and anyone in the SEC get punished much less for losses.