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Luke, if my comments here scare somebody, I don't think they are ready for trad climbing as you seem to define it... and you really have to stop taking criticism, irony and sarcasm as attempts to humiliate you if you are going to have conversation with a bunch of climbers. {...}Could it be an issue with you and not because you are expressing a revolutionary or unpopular idea?

I think that the idea is unpopular and show the difficulty of people to climb on a different style an ethic than trad. Sport climbing was not a sport before, but a bad ethic. Sport climber with there bolt and gymnastique style was not appreciate by trad climber. To prove who have the best ethic, competition was very appealing for sport climber. In a gym, you take a sport climber and trad climber and make it climb each one of two identical route. sport climber are better. In the wild, can I say to a sport climber: if you died, you are worse than me? (see the movies on the first ascension of the cerro torre) Trad climber can not compete on that ground, we have to close our mouth and talk about safety. For many strong trad climber...they prefer to see there children doing sport climbing only with minimal knowledge so they won't go to kill themselve in the mountain. The trad climbing style felt in the back ground as the highest difficulty of he words was done.

"of the constant, overbearing, myopic analyses": it is what you said. It is certainly not a compliment. If my analysis is myopic, yours is the good one? Jake Datch change what I said "horses with blinkers" for a "blinkered person" to make me less appreciate by the climber community. You fight to win your war. It is not an issue with me. Kenreville suggest me to go to a all bolt place. The old definition of trad is someone who like to place there own protection. We are in two different world.

In modern definition of trad, I used an old discussion to show that there are different motivation to climb. I take the reader from one point, only one motivation, to an other...you can choose your motivation. I didn't even talk about sport climbing. after that I wrote about survival mode, without talking of sport climbing. I was talking about trad and nobody like to be humiliate as you are doing for me. The people who are scare by your way of "one option discussion" are not going to participate because they don't like that. An experience trad climber participae and he was humiliate as retrograde person.

It seems that you have an all sport mentality and see accusation to your perfect style every where. paranoia...unpopular idea or issue with me...

This thread show that you go to far in your desire that every body climb sport.

I believe City of Rocks have plenty of both sport, mixed, and trad routes Champ, do you even bother to get your facts straight before you write?And it seems to me you are the one with the paranoia.

Edit: I understand Chanp's post more now after reading it three more times. I believe "you go too far in your desire that every body climb sport." is directed at Mark. I know Mark and I can safely say that that cannot be his desire or intention.

« Last Edit: April 22, 2013, 12:12:48 PM by sneoh »

Logged

"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

I have a good friend that lives very close to the City and I have climbed there more than a dozen times and it is my favorite place to climb in the US and there is everything there. Some of the crack climbing there is amazing! How about "Crack of Doom" to wake you right up! It is not bolted like Rumney either at the City.

LL - There are some bolted "sport" routes there that will scare the shit out of you.

Every time you assume that sport climbers can't be trad climbers and "will die" on a trad route people hate you more.

Here we have a 90% sport climber onsighting 5.8+ which some "trad" climbers have pathetically call 10c. I wonder how many "trad" climbers miss the bomber knee bar, I wonder how many let their feet cut because it's easier to swing your feet up to the next hold, I wonder how many of them piss their pants on the exit moves because they don't know how to climb while they are pumped out and don't know how to rest on an overhang.

Ah yes Modern Times....not a 5.10 C for sure. I thought it was more of a 5.7+ when I did it. Toughest spot was getting under that tree without grabbing it. Not sure of how this relates to definition of trad. I guess Modern Times would be a model of what a trad route would look like.The hardest thing about trad climbing is not the climbing but the placement of gear in a reliable mode. For some people this is no problem for others they have trouble figuring out what is right and what is wrong. For others it is the head game of climbing over removable gear. I think that any route that requires gear can be a modern definition of trad. In the past climbers did not put so much time into defining trad vs sport. Quite a few climbs that we call trad today were done with fixed gear (pitons) that were placed and could not be removed by the 2nd. Just my opinion and we all know that opinions are like another part of the human anatomy and we all have one.Carry on Luke you challenge my ability to descramble code and yes, you offer some interesting and worthwhile opinions.

Ah yes Modern Times....not a 5.10 C for sure. I thought it was more of a 5.7+ when I did it. Toughest spot was getting under that tree without grabbing it. Not sure of how this relates to definition of trad. I guess Modern Times would be a model of what a trad route would look like.

Stay away from the tree use the giant jugs.

It is an example of how a sport climber that has learned to place gear can comfortably lead what trad climbers find quite difficult. Champ often touts that sport climbers are inferior in many ways and it's simply not true.

a professional case and point.. Ethan Pringle has sent Realization .15a, has bouldered Evilution which is V12 highball and Esperanza V14, has done decent level crack at least out west. He learned to climb in a gym in CA and competed in comps.

Kevin Jorgeson might be an even better example... also learned to climb in the gym doing comps and has done V14 bouldering, 5.13 free solos, E10 grit, and 13+ sport routes.