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Originally posted by david361107

Originally posted by kitaradThis is not a criticism but how does anyone who works from 8.30 am to 7 pm manage with a family and kids and travel time to play 5-6 hours a night during the week ? I know when I worked I was so tired with those hours I was zonked in front of the telly most nights. That was with my mum cooking but when I started cooking and cleaning oh boy even less time to zonk out. Add baby who is now thankfully grown up I could never ever manage that time frame.

We all know it's hard work taking care of a family, work and finding time for hobbies and fun. I've been in raid where one of my friends would be feeding their baby and working on a boss fight at the same time, that's not the norm usually..lol

As i said before in a post on this subject. Everyone didn't get to see every dungeon or every boss fight when I was hardcore in WOW, me included. But I will say this, it made the game a lot better for me when I didn't get to see those things.

Peace,

Lascer

And still there are loads of people that never come to do any 25 man RAID's, yet alone 25 man Hardmode RAID's.

If you so desperately want to RAID 6 hours a day. Well you still can! Just do 2 RAIDs then.

Anyone claiming WoW has become easymode are just complaining for the sake of complaining.

The REAL truth is that these people don't feel "Special" anymore. That they are no longer part of just the 1% that could do 6 hour RAIDs to get the EPIC gear.

Now they have to share the bragging with 5% of the playerbase instead of just 1%. /shrug

That's just all it comes down to. Acting "elitish" and "L337" to pinch peope's eyes out, only because they have more time to play each night.

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Mm elitist arguements asside wow is fundementally about getting gear that is supposed to reflect your prestige within that games society. If you devalue this then there is no point being a gear centric game. The game has really confused and conflicting viewpoints.

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Originally posted by Lissyl

Sure is a lot of talk in here about how easy the game is, how dull and lifeless it is to do anything, how current dungeons can be soloed, how just showing up gives you a gold medal, and all that other tripe.

A whole lot of talk.

But what I -don't- see is some -proof- to back up that talk. I don't see anyone posting their character with no deaths while levelling. I don't see anyone posting their world-first heroic DW kill with a group of random strangers. I -certainly- don't see anyone showing how they soloed Heroic Stormstout Brewery or grabbed 9 random people that fit the minimum requirements and will have the World First Heroic Mogushan Vault kill with them. I don't see anyone's full clears of the Challenge Modes with Gold timings. You know...all those things that are so 'easy' and 'dumbed down' and 'mindless' and 'dull' to do.

Until then...keep on talking. But it's just hot air, and anyone with the ability to think recognizes it for what it is. I don't mind if you don't like WoW -- everyone has their own opinions on things. I'm not saying the game is perfect, or that it doesn't have any flaws or is the greatest game of all time. But this 'easy' meme has reached a critical juncture and it's based on -nothing-.

Kind of amusing how this post has been completely ignored.

Let's see some links from these people who claim there's no challenge and everything is easy mode. Let's see proof that you're really as "1337" as you think you are.

Let's see something besides talk, ego, and a stadium full of rose coloured glasses.

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Originally posted by BladestromMm elitist arguements asside wow is fundementally about getting gear that is supposed to reflect your prestige within that games society. If you devalue this then there is no point being a gear centric game. The game has really confused and conflicting viewpoints.

No. Being a gear centric game should have nothing to do with acting like an Elitsh entitled prick!

It's those top 1% in games as WoW, EQ and EQ2 that have made it that way.

I like to collect gear in MMO's. Advance my character. But I still play just for fun!

Being able to clear a difficult dungeon or a RAID I see as both personal achievement for myself as together with the people I did it with.

I had never any desire to parade my characters through Stormwind, Ironforge, Quenos or Freeport to show off, brag and look down on fellow gamers! Just because I had the time to spend those 6 hours in a row to participate in a RAID at that time.

I find that childish and idiotic. It's terrible for the community as a whole. It had nothing but a poisoning effect.

It's exacly this childish and elitish behaviour of that top 1% that gave both WoW and EQ2 such a bad name during the years! /shrug

The title of the Topic should be changed to: "This video explains what is wrong with gamers today".

As there is nothing wrong with WoW itself. It just evolved over the years.

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I agree that it is a shame that a lot of the epic has disappeared from these raids. It also doesn't help that you throw away all the raids from previous expansions with each new expansion. I really like how you had a literal spider web of unlocks to earn in BC to get into places like TK, SSC and BK. Remember the questline you had to do to get into Kara?

Now understand that I am no fan of elitists. I don't give a flying F*** about enabling epeen. I think raid content should be accessible. But that is just in terms of general boss difficulty. What they never should have gotten rid of was the epic journey needed to get to some of this content. Working your way up the ladder of progression is what the game needs. They don't need to tune bosses so that only 1% of the community can down the boss. That is what hard modes are for and those were a good idea to keep the truely elite players challenged. But they never should have removed the progression ladder and replaced it with a freakin' elevator.

The big mistake that blizzard has made was to grandfather everyone up to the latest raid tier with each content release. This was the mistake of WotLK. But once most raiders have moved on it can become hard or even impossible to get the unlocks you need to bring a new character into raiding. You either have to be an existing player in a raid guild and be able to twist some arms or you need to be a class that is desparately needed. I saw this in BC. I was late to the raiding scene. I got into a guild that was in TK and SSC. I had to bust my butt to get though the Kara attunement quest but from their they helped me get through all the rest of the attuning and gearing that I needed because they really needed another full healing priest. And yeah, I remember weeks of wiping on Kelthalas but man when we got him down it was the best feeling and being a part of your guilds first kill of a tier final boss is a feeling you cant replace.

But the problem for most is not that the bosses were hard, they were but that was a different thing. The bigger problem is that most people can't even get to those bosses in the first place because most raiders will not help them get there. Most raiders want to get the kill and move on. Sometimes guilds will even leave behind some of their own members in the mad rush to try something new.. That is why Blizz removed the attunement quests. But that is again replacing the ladder with an elevator when it really shouldn't have to be.

I would like to see blizzard bring back the attunements of Vanilla and BC but create an incentive for guilds to get new people attuned. Now this doesn't mean that guilds need to stop progressing but what if they had an incentive to keep farming the earlier tiers. Not just for gear for the people they like but rather what if a guild got rewarded for each character they got attuned and geared for a particular tier of raiding. What if vet raid members got bonus "raid mentor" rewards for being in a raid that got someone new attuned to the next level.

Dont remove the journey from the game just because not enough people are traveling that path any more and it cannot be done alone. And don't make the journey completely soloable. Give people a reason to keep on making the journey with new friends.

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Originally posted by ReizlaThis is not a problem with WoW only. It's a problem with all (older) MMORPG's out there.

And what do all older games have in common?

Change. Gamers fear and loathe it. You will never get an argument from the Good Old Boys about how the Good Old Days were better in every possible way.

But then, that's always been a Constant in every human society.

Just as it's a Constant on this (and every other) gaming-related message board.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

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Originally posted by JeroKane

Originally posted by BladestromMm elitist arguements asside wow is fundementally about getting gear that is supposed to reflect your prestige within that games society. If you devalue this then there is no point being a gear centric game. The game has really confused and conflicting viewpoints.

No. Being a gear centric game should have nothing to do with acting like an Elitsh entitled prick!

It's those top 1% in games as WoW, EQ and EQ2 that have made it that way.

I like to collect gear in MMO's. Advance my character. But I still play just for fun!

Being able to clear a difficult dungeon or a RAID I see as both personal achievement for myself as together with the people I did it with.

I had never any desire to parade my characters through Stormwind, Ironforge, Quenos or Freeport to show off, brag and look down on fellow gamers! Just because I had the time to spend those 6 hours in a row to participate in a RAID at that time.

I find that childish and idiotic. It's terrible for the community as a whole. It had nothing but a poisoning effect.

It's exacly this childish and elitish behaviour of that top 1% that gave both WoW and EQ2 such a bad name during the years! /shrug

The title of the Topic should be changed to: "This video explains what is wrong with gamers today".

As there is nothing wrong with WoW itself. It just evolved over the years.

Neither of you read the thread or watched the video then. I guess that shows what's wrong with posters these days. Did you guys listen to him when he said it once took a weeks for some of raids to be cleared and when WOTLK was released it was cleared on the first day? Besides it's self evident that the game has gotten a lot easier and a helluva lot more gear orientated than it used to be.

Besides, whats so wrong with showing of your hard won gear? Do you not take pride in your home, garden or car or whatever? Or do you sneer at your neighbour when he shows pride in his new wheels?

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Originally posted by JeroKane

Originally posted by david361107

Originally posted by kitaradThis is not a criticism but how does anyone who works from 8.30 am to 7 pm manage with a family and kids and travel time to play 5-6 hours a night during the week ? I know when I worked I was so tired with those hours I was zonked in front of the telly most nights. That was with my mum cooking but when I started cooking and cleaning oh boy even less time to zonk out. Add baby who is now thankfully grown up I could never ever manage that time frame.

We all know it's hard work taking care of a family, work and finding time for hobbies and fun. I've been in raid where one of my friends would be feeding their baby and working on a boss fight at the same time, that's not the norm usually..lol

As i said before in a post on this subject. Everyone didn't get to see every dungeon or every boss fight when I was hardcore in WOW, me included. But I will say this, it made the game a lot better for me when I didn't get to see those things.

Peace,

Lascer

And still there are loads of people that never come to do any 25 man RAID's, yet alone 25 man Hardmode RAID's.

If you so desperately want to RAID 6 hours a day. Well you still can! Just do 2 RAIDs then.

Anyone claiming WoW has become easymode are just complaining for the sake of complaining.

The REAL truth is that these people don't feel "Special" anymore. That they are no longer part of just the 1% that could do 6 hour RAIDs to get the EPIC gear.

Now they have to share the bragging with 5% of the playerbase instead of just 1%. /shrug

That's just all it comes down to. Acting "elitish" and "L337" to pinch peope's eyes out, only because they have more time to play each night.

Anyone that played WoW at or before BC will agree with me on this game has turned Candy Land, hell even Blizzard admits it. Maybe you just haven't played WoW for very long, but if you missed out on that fun I'm sorry because it was great. Like I said, I never got to see everything and I was fine with that. Today all these people in WoW think they are the shit because they have downed this boss or that, but they are not. So what if you can't play 8 hours a night, i never did that and I still was able to Raid. The reason you can't get 25 man raids going is because all the heavy raiders have left WoW and moved on to more hardcore games. The industry has to see this and someone will fix it, the only question is who will that be? GW2? hell that game levels itself, so who knows. All I know is casual gamers with their bitching is hurting it for everyone.

Why exactly did all of the games released 2004-05 make so damn much money compared to their earlier peers? The industry as a whole was concentrating on creating much more solo-able games. And..yep, that's what we got. And the player base (roughly) tripled in < 5 years. And they made a bloody fortune doing it.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

Why exactly did all of the games released 2004-05 make so damn much money compared to their earlier peers? The industry as a whole was concentrating on creating much more solo-able games. And..yep, that's what we got. And the player base (roughly) tripled in < 5 years. And they made a bloody fortune doing it.

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Originally posted by david361107

Originally posted by JeroKane

Originally posted by david361107

Originally posted by kitaradThis is not a criticism but how does anyone who works from 8.30 am to 7 pm manage with a family and kids and travel time to play 5-6 hours a night during the week ? I know when I worked I was so tired with those hours I was zonked in front of the telly most nights. That was with my mum cooking but when I started cooking and cleaning oh boy even less time to zonk out. Add baby who is now thankfully grown up I could never ever manage that time frame.

We all know it's hard work taking care of a family, work and finding time for hobbies and fun. I've been in raid where one of my friends would be feeding their baby and working on a boss fight at the same time, that's not the norm usually..lol

As i said before in a post on this subject. Everyone didn't get to see every dungeon or every boss fight when I was hardcore in WOW, me included. But I will say this, it made the game a lot better for me when I didn't get to see those things.

Peace,

Lascer

And still there are loads of people that never come to do any 25 man RAID's, yet alone 25 man Hardmode RAID's.

If you so desperately want to RAID 6 hours a day. Well you still can! Just do 2 RAIDs then.

Anyone claiming WoW has become easymode are just complaining for the sake of complaining.

The REAL truth is that these people don't feel "Special" anymore. That they are no longer part of just the 1% that could do 6 hour RAIDs to get the EPIC gear.

Now they have to share the bragging with 5% of the playerbase instead of just 1%. /shrug

That's just all it comes down to. Acting "elitish" and "L337" to pinch peope's eyes out, only because they have more time to play each night.

Anyone that played WoW at or before BC will agree with me on this game has turned Candy Land, hell even Blizzard admits it. Maybe you just haven't played WoW for very long, but if you missed out on that fun I'm sorry because it was great. Like I said, I never got to see everything and I was fine with that. Today all these people in WoW think they are the shit because they have downed this boss or that, but they are not. So what if you can't play 8 hours a night, i never did that and I still was able to Raid. The reason you can't get 25 man raids going is because all the heavy raiders have left WoW and moved on to more hardcore games. The industry has to see this and someone will fix it, the only question is who will that be? GW2? hell that game levels itself, so who knows. All I know is casual gamers with their bitching is hurting it for everyone.

Peace,

Lascer

That is so utter bull it's not even funny!

I played vanilla WoW for over 2 and half years until after TBC release. So I know what I am talking about.

RAIDing back then was an utter pain!

You either had to be part of an elitish bunch of pricks in a RAID guild full of drama and fighting about loot, or you spend litterly ages to get 40 people together for Molten Core.

Hell, it even took plenty of time to get balanced party going for the regular dungeons like UBRS (which I loved to do by the way.... was one of my fav. dungeons).

RAID'ing most of the time is just all drama. Fights about who gets in the RAID and who doesn't. If you rolled a less popular class you were excluded most of the time. Fights about who gets the loot! Even with DKP systems there was still plenty of drama.

Not just in WoW tho. EverQuest 2 was full of it as well. RAID guilds in general are just terrible. Infested with Elitish pricks, drama queens and entitled pricks who always think they should have all the loot first!

I haven't RAID'ed for over 3 years now and I don't miss it at all.

I still love to do general dungeons via the Dungeon Finder or just with guildies. 5 people together. No drama. Not being stuck behind the PC for 6-8 hours on end. Way more relaxed and fun.

And you know what? A lot of people I know who RAID'ed are in the same boat as me.

You say the hardcore raiders have moved on to more Hardcore games? I say... most hardcore raiders are burned out on Raiding all together and moved on.

Hardcore Raiding is dying! And that is just a fact!

Like I already said a few posts back. Times change! People change! Just the way of life!

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You can have good guilds turn down drama alley and self-destruct, but it isn't a guarantee to happen to every guild.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

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Its a pvp expansion. Bought it but dont like it being a pvp expansion? shouldnt have bought it! it was well known.

That's why they forget mmr-reset and had bugs that allowed combatrezz in arena right? Im withholding a roman about balancing. Frankly i expected it to be one but it certaintly isn't.

@topic

i think hes rigth that harder hc would help keep things more interesting but at the same time i got to ask what you as a gamer want? Personally im not the least bit interested in running the gear threadmill weekly to progress trough the raids. In that aspect lfr is great as it allows me to see content i wouldnt play in the first place otherwise.This of course doesnt help blizz as running trough lfr once wont keep me subbed but its a positive thing for the gamer who wants to experience it.

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Originally posted by Arakazi

Originally posted by JeroKane

Originally posted by BladestromMm elitist arguements asside wow is fundementally about getting gear that is supposed to reflect your prestige within that games society. If you devalue this then there is no point being a gear centric game. The game has really confused and conflicting viewpoints.

No. Being a gear centric game should have nothing to do with acting like an Elitsh entitled prick!It's those top 1% in games as WoW, EQ and EQ2 that have made it that way.I like to collect gear in MMO's. Advance my character. But I still play just for fun!Being able to clear a difficult dungeon or a RAID I see as both personal achievement for myself as together with the people I did it with.I had never any desire to parade my characters through Stormwind, Ironforge, Quenos or Freeport to show off, brag and look down on fellow gamers! Just because I had the time to spend those 6 hours in a row to participate in a RAID at that time.I find that childish and idiotic. It's terrible for the community as a whole. It had nothing but a poisoning effect.It's exacly this childish and elitish behaviour of that top 1% that gave both WoW and EQ2 such a bad name during the years! /shrug The title of the Topic should be changed to: "This video explains what is wrong with gamers today". As there is nothing wrong with WoW itself. It just evolved over the years.

Neither of you read the thread or watched the video then. I guess that shows what's wrong with posters these days. Did you guys listen to him when he said it once took a weeks for some of raids to be cleared and when WOTLK was released it was cleared on the first day? Besides it's self evident that the game has gotten a lot easier and a helluva lot more gear orientated than it used to be.

Besides, whats so wrong with showing of your hard won gear? Do you not take pride in your home, garden or car or whatever? Or do you sneer at your neighbour when he shows pride in his new wheels?

Cleared the first day is not exactly true. It was cleared the first day the expansion was released. But it also took weeks of trying in the beta to make it to that point. That is how most of the big guilds are getting first clears on day one. Lots of practice and attempts during the beta testing cycle.

So if we are going to call it like it is. Then by no means did anyone clear WoTLK on the first day the raid was put up for access.

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Originally posted by Thomas2006

Originally posted by Arakazi

Originally posted by JeroKane

Originally posted by BladestromMm elitist arguements asside wow is fundementally about getting gear that is supposed to reflect your prestige within that games society. If you devalue this then there is no point being a gear centric game. The game has really confused and conflicting viewpoints.

No. Being a gear centric game should have nothing to do with acting like an Elitsh entitled prick!It's those top 1% in games as WoW, EQ and EQ2 that have made it that way.I like to collect gear in MMO's. Advance my character. But I still play just for fun!Being able to clear a difficult dungeon or a RAID I see as both personal achievement for myself as together with the people I did it with.I had never any desire to parade my characters through Stormwind, Ironforge, Quenos or Freeport to show off, brag and look down on fellow gamers! Just because I had the time to spend those 6 hours in a row to participate in a RAID at that time.I find that childish and idiotic. It's terrible for the community as a whole. It had nothing but a poisoning effect.It's exacly this childish and elitish behaviour of that top 1% that gave both WoW and EQ2 such a bad name during the years! /shrug The title of the Topic should be changed to: "This video explains what is wrong with gamers today". As there is nothing wrong with WoW itself. It just evolved over the years.

Neither of you read the thread or watched the video then. I guess that shows what's wrong with posters these days. Did you guys listen to him when he said it once took a weeks for some of raids to be cleared and when WOTLK was released it was cleared on the first day? Besides it's self evident that the game has gotten a lot easier and a helluva lot more gear orientated than it used to be.

Besides, whats so wrong with showing of your hard won gear? Do you not take pride in your home, garden or car or whatever? Or do you sneer at your neighbour when he shows pride in his new wheels?

Cleared the first day is not exactly true. It was cleared the first day the expansion was released. But it also took weeks of trying in the beta to make it to that point. That is how most of the big guilds are getting first clears on day one. Lots of practice and attempts during the beta testing cycle.

So if we are going to call it like it is. Then by no means did anyone clear WoTLK on the first day the raid was put up for access.

Exactly. Back in the Vanilla WoW day people didn't had access to the RAID until it hit the live servers.

And ofcourse it took long time to clear.

1. RAID guilds were not able to practice on PTR for over a month!

2. Due to RAID's hitting live directly, they were quite buggy and it took time to get fixed, before people were actually able to clear it.

But ofcourse people don't want to accept this truth. They rather stick their heads in the sands and continue on moaning and bitching about how hard vanilla WoW was compared to today and how easymode RAIDs are today, eventho deep down they know it's not true.

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Originally posted by 7star

I played solid for 2 years after BC and on and off for 3 more years. I unsubbed and uninstalled 3 days ago. I was saddened by what I saw. I'm not bagging on WoW, but it is not the same game it was -- AT ALL.

I'm not saying it's "bad." It's just not for me. My guild and everyone I knew or met who played WoW is gone. They moved on.

From my experience up to now, the game is not the same because -- especially because -- the community is not the same. I realize things change, games change and "evolve." But the direction WoW has taken discourages community and communication. It's all about grabbing the lewts as fast as possible and using other people to help you achieve that end only because it is necessary to have others help you. That is not community building.

And other people are necessary to show your stuff off to. That's the only other reason you need people around in the current iteration of WoW. It was a sad a lonely experience for me -- ironic because the queues on my server were longer than ever.

That's what made me sad about WoW. We aren't going to change it. There is a new generation of gamers who are not like the first generation of WoW players, so WoW will not go back to how it was. It's time for me to move on. That's all.

I think blaming the game is BS. There is absoutely nothing that stops players from grouping and things like that except the players themselves.

That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!