June 21, 2011

1. "If you are so insecure that you feel you need to carry a gun, YOU ARE A NUT CASE and need PSYCHOLOGICAL HELP. If you feel the need to carry a gun, YOU ARE A NUT AND SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO DO SO!!!"...

2. "You people who are going to cc, please do not accidentally shoot us regular people or your self. Although it will be interesting to hear about the 1st cc person who shots themselves in the leg or testycles."

IN THE COMMENTS: t-man said...

The comment is clearly a parody, filled with "NUT"s, "NUT CASE" (scrotum), and testycles.

Either that or the writer's subconscious is trying to work through a few issues.

Oddly, these are 2 different comments, by different individuals, and they are separated in the thread by other comments. Either it's just a funny coincidence, or the term "nut case" somehow influenced the other guy to think about testicles. As for the misspelling, now I'm having flashbacks to the nude bicycle ride I witnessed last Saturday and which I cannot unsee.

The Family Guy episode where Brian is court-ordered to get neutered was on TBS last night around 6:30 central. There's a Testycles joke in there. Maybe that's what he was thinking.

As far as the topic at hand is concerned.......aaaaand WE'RE OFF! 200 comments easy. For my own part, 49 down, 1 to go.

Do I carry every single day? No. Do I appreciate the freedom that allows me to do so should I choose? Yes. Has CC ever actually been necessary in my life? Yes. Twice. And, no, I don't live in a high crime area.

Catch-22 revisited. Madison is tame today, and concealed carry is not that important. But the day that copper thieves, car-jackers and roving gangs of muggers appear, the CC man will be protected when no one else is. And low and behold, the Homeland security Forces are preparing the concentration camps for civil unrest as we speak. And the energy prices are soaring along with the food prices at Obama-Soros's design while they have pushed the US Dollar to the edge of an 80% devaluation. The best question is how much ammo can be concealed?

If you are so insecure that you feel you need to carry a gun, YOU ARE A NUT CASE and need PSYCHOLOGICAL HELP. If you feel the need to carry a gun, YOU ARE A NUT AND SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO DO SO!!!

You people who are going to cc, please do not accidentally shoot us regular people or your self. Although it will be interesting to hear about the 1st cc person who shots themselves in the leg or testycles.

I know that using existing research (like the FBI's) is less fun than creating facts from whole cloth, but having a CC permit, like obtaining firearm training as a minor, is a strong lifetime indicator for not being involved in any firearm-related crimes.

Correct capitalization, spelling and grammar courtesy of a 1950s public education.

There are 17 specified places that you can CC in here in MO. Outside of that, any business can follow specific guidelines to post that they do not allow CC on their property. In either cases, a telescopic baton, like those sold by Asp, are both extremely concealable and perfectly legal.

save_the_rustbelt, why do you say "Safety training is mandatory"? WA has no training requirement, and our safety record is just as good as anywhere else. Yes, yes, training is a very good idea, but it turns out--at least for our noble residents--you don't actually need government coercion to have that.

"Welcome to the 21st century, Wisconsin. Progress is inevitable so quit fighting it. Join the rest of the country instead of bitterly clinging to your outdated status quo. Ignorance and bigotry is no substitute for facts and reason when it comes to concealed carry."

Female, S&W .38 Bodyguard, will CC, have cojones...will travel but not on my testycle...too bumpy on rural roads out by my farm.

Have been accused of "Nut Job" as in, "you're crazy to live out here alone!" but, little red dot and buckshot in chamber first has limited my interaction with the "sane and secure" outside world to one stolen truck. Got her back too and never fired a shot, just followed 'em until they freaked out, pulled over and ran.

I did think about unloading that deterrent first load of buckshot into their disappearing backsides. But, I'm just a little Nut Job, not a big one.

For those of carrying wooden clubs for protection , this appeared recently in our local paper:

Aggravated Assault. Warren-based state police reported an incident occurring between 2 and 2:30 a.m. on May 18, 2011, during which four males were involved in a fight outside of the Bucket Cafe, Sugar Grove. Matthew Harrison, 33, Jamestown, N.Y., had a metal pipe approximately three feet in length that was used during the fight, police said. According to police, Lucas Rose, 21, Sugar Grove, also had a weapon, a wooden bat, which he attempted to use during the fight. Police said neither Kevin Anderson, 23, Russell, nor Jedadiah Morningstar, 24, Sugar Grove, had weapons. According to police, Morningstar and Rose received fractured skulls that required surgery, Anderson received a broken arm, and Harrison received minor cuts, abrasions, and bruising to his head. Police charged Harrison three counts of felony aggravated assault, three counts of simple assault, and three counts of recklessly endangering another person; Rose was charged with one count of felony aggravated assault, one count of simple assault, and one count of recklessly endangering another person; and Anderson and Morningstar were both charged with one count each of simple assault. Further action is pending.

I know applying logic to a liberal rant is counter-productive, but as a conservative I can't help myself.

Does the liberal making the letter to the editor realize they are accusing all military and police officers of being crazy? And yet if threatened by a knife-carrying mugger, I would be willing to bet the letter-writer would fling themselves gratefully into the arms of those he/she has such contempt for in words. At least until the immediate danger is past.

I can't think of anywhere in the entire US that your "deterrent first load of buckshot" is a good idea. It's pretty much universally the case that you aren't justified in shooting at another person at all, unless you're in reasonable fear that the other person is going to kill you or do you serious bodily harm.

I carry, daily. It is just another tool in the shed (pun intended). As a matter of choice & self preservation, I am too old to fight. So if something bad happens I will stop the aggression; it is a matter of choice & self preservation by the assailant. Why do I carry a .45 ACP? Because they don't make a .46 ACP!

Will it be interesting to hear about the 1st insecure cc person who shoots an abusive stalker ex-boyfriend, rapist, home intruder or random nutcase that shows up at your school or business armed and pissed off?

I don't need to carry a gun, but I desire it. I love, even lust, to feel that cold steel in my hand, knowing at the squeeze of my finger I can send hot lead flying through the air. I'm this guy's worst nightmare.

Oh my, I'm getting excited just thinking about it.

Actually, I have a nice little S&W M&P 9c (a semi-automatic 9mm pistol) and have completed the concealed carry class for Ohio. I still need to get my license.

Living is a somewhat isolated spot in the country, it's nice to have some protection. When seconds counts, the police are minutes away.

The ideal solution is to live in a safe neighborhood where you don't even have to lock your doors. Unhappily that "luxury" isn't available to everyone though, I confess, I've enjoyed it my whole life long and wouldn't have it any other way. Heck, our house doesn't even have locks! Nor did the one before, or the one before that.

I don't think that Althouse would object to someone quoting from the comments here to indict the reasoning of the commenter. What is objectionable is using the comments to smear the host. Neither Althouse nor any other commenter is using the comment at the J-S to tar the J-S reporter.

I suspect that you are capable of unstanding that difference, but choose to plow ahead disingenously anyway.

You people who are going to cc, please do not accidentally shoot us regular people or your self. Although it will be interesting to hear about the 1st cc person who shots themselves in the leg or testycles.

A former co-worker proudly displayed on Facebook his ownership of an AK-47 and discussed how much fun shooting it was. Months later he went on and on about what a tyrant the duly elected Governor of Wisconsin was. In fact, he posted that he had a gun and was soooooo angry he could so out and shoot something. An immediate family member posted below his comment "Does that something start with an 'S' and end with 'cottWalker?'". He neither deleted nor disallowed the comments. Seems to me we have a great deal more to fear from 1. unstable leftist, or 2. just plain crazy people like Loughner or 3. SWAT teams getting the wrong address.

I've never once felt the need for a gun in my life. I stopped two guys from robbing trucks outside my apartment a few years ago (I used to live in Milwaukee). I called the police and went out to follow them (approximately two blocks away). The police took so long to respond (total time from when I called 911 57 minutes) that they wised up to my following them, turned around, and confronted me.

It wasn't the first or the last time, but I stared down the barrel of a gun. I talked to him, feet away, with that gun pointed at me the whole time. When the police finally did arrive, they fled and were apprehended. They turned out to be 16 years old. (both over 6'1 though)

Moral of the story - if I had a gun, I would have killed two kids that night. Or died. That sounds like a lose lose to me.

Well Kirk P, let me explain. I cannot CC my pump action shotgun and I always use buckshot first, because it stings like hell...and if there's any chance not to kill the aggressor...I'm for that.

If the aggressor continues coming, then there is evidence you tried to scare them off first and what comes next is on them.

Aggressors out here come on 2 legs and 4 legs, and no legs as it is snake country. I'm 5ft and a little over 100 lbs and 60 yrs old.

Let me encourage you to read the law, as there is room in the definition of "fear of bodily harm, death or ability to defend oneself from harm". In other words: I'm small and old, unless the aggressor is a 3rd grader my chances of physically protecting myself are slim to none.

I also live a solid 10-12 min from police or fire response. I have deterred more than my share of aggressors with buckshot, it is almost as good as the sound of the pump action of my shotgun in the dark. Now there's a universal language spoken by all.

Moral of the story - if I had a gun, I would have killed two kids that night. Or died. That sounds like a lose lose to me.

Impossible to judge without further info. How far away from them where you when they pulled? Would you have had a chance to pull? Did they frisk you?

In other words, sounds like they got the jump on you, regardless, and you did your best to talk them out of shooting you. Having a CCW wouldn't have made a difference in that case, unless you're too jumpy to be carrying it in the first place, which I also don't have enough info on.

So does concealed carry refer to guns or nuts? Are the women being left out once more. Seriously, the argument replays the Flight Surgeon's Catch-22 telling Yossarian that if he asks to be grounded from suicide missions, that proves that he is sane, and sane men are never grounded. Only a crazy nut will not ask to be grounded. But since the crazy nuts did not ask to be grounded, they cannot be grounded.

Of course, since most of you are parasites, its no wonder you are afraid of pesticide. Your Union Thugs won't look so tough with a sucking chest wound.

A Tea Party thug assualted somebody in the Capitol today. Would it have been better if these two men were shot dead instead of arrested? Why can't I carry inside the courthouse to protect myself against these hoodlums?

Oh, and you never did elaborate on that story of you killing a hippie. Remember that? This would a good thread to expand?

Half a milwaukee city block or so. Could I have pulled? Maybe since I was following them for a full 30 minutes BEFORE they wised up.

I know I wish I was more noble and would have talked them down in all circumstances, but in my mind's eye - I know I would have taken ANY option other than what I did. Short of running, which would have been suicide.

Moral of the story: two aspiring armed robbers got to continue their training for a life of crime. Did you happen to catch their names? Might want to monitor homicide cases to see when these two show up as defendants.

Maybe since I was following them for a full 30 minutes BEFORE they wised up.

Obviously it was a bad idea to follow them anyway, but even given the 30 minutes...you wouldn't pull your weapon under any circumstances unless you felt your live was in immediate and direct jeopardy? I'm not talking about WI statute here, I'm talking about common sense as applied to be CCW law and the aftermaths of such incidents in CCW states. You shouldn't even THREATEN to pull if it can at all be avoided. My specific question was how close they were when you saw the gun. Otherwise, it's just two 16-year-olds walking toward you, albeit recently from a possible illicit activity.

Lincolntf: Because they are public union brothers and sisters of solidarity...so, basically it means they have the guns on their side. Very visible during the WI protests, police spokesmen and actions told all you needed to know about how they took over the capitol building and were allowed to stay.

DoS, watching out for someone elses property makes you a good neighbor, but that's really not what guns are for. Nothing about that is life-or-death. Now, I suppose if you'd been carrying and two people pulled on you, someone might have died if you tried to get your gun out to shoot them, but I doubt two to one odds would have been in your favor.

People who want castle laws (quite different from CC laws) that allow for the defense of home and property are pretty clear it's because it's your home and it's only prudent to think that anyone breaking in will not hesitate to do anything else. Waiting until they do is unwise. And a person really shouldn't have to retreat from your home.

But I don't know anyone who thinks that a person shouldn't retreat from tailing criminals if they decide they don't like being tailed.

Ah, I wasn't clear in my story. The first thing I did was call the police - before I even left my apartment. If that's all I would have done, they would have broken into another 30 or so cars and left.

I stayed on the phone with someone at the location I called the cops to while I followed. (to direct the cops to me/them).

I would have fled, but I didn't realize they were on to me until they pulled and ran at me.

@ Lincoln

I see what you mean about alternate futures. I'll just hope that particular one doesn't come true. It wasn't meant to be a crack about thou shall not kill - I am a liberal hippy after all. We're mostly harmless.

A Tea Party thug assualted somebody in the Capitol today. Would it have been better if these two men were shot dead instead of arrested? Why can't I carry inside the courthouse to protect myself against these hoodlums?

I would have fled, but I didn't realize they were on to me until they pulled and ran at me.

As I said before, your having a CCW wouldn't have changed that scenario. Unfortunately, you never would have had a chance to pull and would most likely have acted exactly the same. I'll stand by my point, though, that if you actually had a CCW, you wouldn't have followed them in the first place.

Dose of Sanity: You say they were "robbing" trucks. Were the trucks occupied, or unoccupied, and were they just pilfering the trucks? Good that you called the cops. Even cops wait for backup before interfering if they are outnumbered and nobody is in physical danger. But your sense of something is what caused you to follow them. You put yourself at risk, unnecessarily. No wonder you find yourself at the wrong end of a gun barrel. Concealed Carry is about self defense, not about vigilante-gonna-stop-the-bad-guys craziness. Is your real name "Peter Parker"?

Someone "car jacked" a lady here in Albuquerque, only they kept her, too, and drove around in her car and raped her for two days.

For some reason I have the idea that her eventual rescue involved a frozen turkey and a Wal-Mart parking lot, but I might be confusing two stories. (I could google it, I suppose. There was the other Wal-Mart incident here of a customer with concealed carry that shot a guy who jumped over the deli counter and started to stab his ex.)

Car-jackings are generally violent (an old man from my church back in California some 12 years or so ago was stabbed to death by a car jacker when he got back in the car after the guy stabbed his wife) as they involve stealing the car while a person is in it.

So, I donno, garage. What IS the difference between stealing a car and assaulting someone? Or are you going to pretend that "car jacking" is the same thing as "auto theft."

When I moved out of Milwaukee my insurance charges: auto, renters, personal liability, all went down. One of the things I had to learn is that when I was at school I was a teacher, and I could correct students who were misbehaving. Once out of school, I'm not their teacher and I'm not their daddy. Following around gangsters who are breaking into cars demonstrates a serious lack of judgment, and has contributed nothing to the concealed carry discussion, other than to reinforce the notion that people who can't be trusted with weapons are out there. If you had a gun would you have pulled it on them and ordered them to stop? "Citizens Arrest!" You do know that the Medical Examiner can tell if you shot them through the front or in the back while they are running away.

Yeah nice story, DOS - what does it have to do with me? I'm out driving around late at night all the time, part of my job, and you prefer that I wait for someone like you to come along if I get in trouble? Talk nice and maybe nothing bad will happen? I don't care if some guys *never felt the need for a gun* because they're just so awesome already.

In the past friends were murdered, I myself was mugged at knifepoint, and worse. CC is the best thing that ever happened to women. Learning to shoot and getting my CCP was downright liberating.

The ones who were "self-sufficient" didn't last long. The lifetime dopers, navel-gazers and un-reconstructed Deadheads are the hippies I'm familiar with. (Years working at an indy bookstore in MA exposed me to more than my fair share of the breed.)

DOSHad you been carrying and mamaged to go Dirty Harry on the two thieves, you may have found yourself on the losing end of a civil suit. While you could have made a reasonable self-defense defense to a criminal charge - the thug's families would have a basis for claiming your vigilante actions in fact provoked the incident. And with no other witnesses to back up your version, how would you prove that it wasn't you who drew first and the thugs were only reacting to your threatening them?

Playing vigilante is very dangerous. Criminals do not like to leave witnesses.

An acquaintance of ours owns a gun shop. He suggested getting a shotgun for home defense, as the pump sound alone was enough to send any intruder running.

I think that it really depends on how experienced you are. But, I got that advise some 20 years ago when I was being stalked by a former business partner. I bought a 12 gauge with a short and a long barrel. One day when he pulled in front of my house, I let him see it, and me loading the first shell. No more stalking.

After that, I mostly have used it to shoot birds that tried to dig holes in the house to build their nests. And, a bit of trap. But in those 20 years I have never lived anywhere that was sketchy.

"1. "If you are so insecure that you feel you need to carry a gun, YOU ARE A NUT CASE and need PSYCHOLOGICAL HELP. If you feel the need to carry a gun, YOU ARE A NUT AND SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO DO SO!!!"..."

This is the type of comment made by someone who lives in an area where they feel safe. I find it interesting that so many of those who feel safe in their neighborhoods want to dictate how those who feel unsafe should protect themselves (or not protect themselves).

This person was put in a headlock and punched in the face. Did that person have the right to use deadly force to protect themselves?

Definitions vary from state to state, but according to my CCW instructor who is also a chief of police, yes. Be prepared to prove it to a jury, which in this case shouldn't be too hard since you'd have bruising on your face and head.

"This person was put in a headlock and punched in the face. Did that person have the right to use deadly force to protect themselves?"

You just have to try, really try, (even assuming your description is accurate) to equate this to having someone stick a gun in your face and steal your car?

Does a person have the right to defend himself. Yes. This really isn't rocket science, garage.

Are you going to, really are you going to try to say that someone does not have the right to defend himself? If a car jacking and a public scuffle or even assault are the same to you then, for sake of argument we'll go with that.

So, for sake of argument, they are actually the same. Getting punched in public is the same as getting dragged by yourself into an alleyway in the middle of the night is the same as a guy sticking a gun in your face and dragging you out (if you're lucky) of your car.

Now, should you be able to defend yourself with deadly force in any of those situations, garage? Should you be able to defend yourself with deadly force in any situation at all?

You tell us. I want to know what garagemahal thinks is appropriate self-defense.

Because it's easy to equivocate and divert and easy to try to take apart someone elses opinions when you never put forward your own.

You've linked a yfrog picture with vague commentary by an anonymous poster alleging that two men were arrested and that a Solidarity singer got punched in the face. The snap shows one man being frog walked, and no evidence of Solidarity singers, headlocks, punches, or Tea Partiers.

I'm surprised there's been no discussion of the carry arms themselves.

Glock 19 with a Crossbreed CC holster. I went with 9mm so I could use the same ammo with the Hi-Point carbine. I also don't expect to come against body-armored opponents. In any case, I tend to buy a couple of boxes every other Friday whether I plan to shoot or not, just cuz.

I'm still shopping for a long rifle, though if I had my druthers, it would be a version of the M14. Call it a soft spot.

Ditto on the ammo. As far as the .22, I believe there are conversion kits for your 9mm that will allow it to shoot .22. In this way, you're still getting the weight and feel of your 9mm, but with radically cheaper ammo for target and drawing practice. The weight will be different, but I'm told by those that know it's not that big of a difference.

Here in Minnesota, opponents of concealed carry predicted that the passage of concealed carry would result in a significant uptick in gun violence.

It didn't happen.

I can't remember exactly, but I seem to think there was one case in which someone with a permit fired a shot in a heated moment. He didn't shoot at a person, but at an empty car that he and his friend or relative were arguing about. Like I said, it was a while ago, and I'm fuzzy on the details.

About the same time concealed carry was passed, we got light rail. Three people died in accidents involving the light rail line.

"I've been in more than a few fistfights without having to resort to deadly force. Evidently you feel deadly force is warranted in any altercation. Just more evidence that liberals are idiots."

My guess is that garage wants us to condemn the Tea Partier without knowing any facts, if it was a Tea Partier (maybe like that jared fellow was a tea partier?) or what provocation might have been involved if there was any provocation. I do believe in "fighting words". If the guy was minding his own business there's no excuse, but Obama did tell people to get in their opponents faces and punch back twice as hard.

I also think that garage wants to accuse everyone of racism for not condemning the guy who thought that car jackers should be answered with legally obtained and permitted concealed carry firearms.

GM: "A Tea Party thug assualted somebody in the Capitol today. Would it have been better if these two men were shot dead instead of arrested? Why can't I carry inside the courthouse to protect myself against these hoodlums?"

When did this happen as I can find no actually news on this? I'm getting a sniff of bullshit...

Bart Hall, you and others after may not have seen my earlier posts in this lengthy discussion. I started it with S&W .38 Bodyguard, buckshot 1st chamber and slugs to follow for CC because can not carry my pump action shotgun CC. Also do to my size and age and purposes. You make good points and I was happy to see you understood the deterrent of buckshot theory. Check prior posts here for more details. Thanks for your thoughts.

"Moral of the story - if I had a gun, I would have killed two kids that night. Or died. That sounds like a lose lose to me."

Complete nonsense. You're taking your actual situation, which could have had many much-worse outcomes (one of the kids pulls the trigger, for example) and comparing it to a hypothetical where you only allow the worst-case outcome to be exhibited. But instead of your biased conjectures, let's look at real life examples, instead. Lots and lots and lots of times where armed citizens successfully defend themselves with firearms, sometimes without a shot even being fired.

And there's something about your story that I don't follow. You called the police before you went out, then went out and try to observe them covertly, from a distance? How in the world was that stopping them from continuing their predation?

SunnyJ,

I don't know a single defensive handgun authority, from Ayoob on down to the local folks who are teaching defensive handgun courses, who advocates the "shoot to wound" or "shoot to scare" response. YMMV...

I was an MP during my two years in the army. We qualified on a variety of weapons including the Colt .45 semi-automatic pistol. On my AIT class's first attempt to pass the .45 shooting range test (after nearly 8 weeks of training), 2/3 of the class failed to qualify and had to retake the test at least one more time.

The moral of the story is that it is hard to hit somebody with a pistol even if you practice a lot. The next hand gun that I buy will have a laser sight on it.

"He suggested getting a shotgun for home defense, as the pump sound alone was enough to send any intruder running."

The notion of attackers freezing or fleeing at the sound of racking a shell into the chamber is pervasive.It's also a bad idea. Never confront an intruder with a gun that has an empty chamber.See "StressFire II" by Massad Ayoob.

Ayoob's books should be required reading before venturing into CC.This should be as well researched as buying a new car or selecting a college.

Assuming Walker signs it, La Follette publishes it (he has 10 working days from enactment), and Sumi doesn't issue a TRO based on a nuisance lawsuit, we should be able to apply for a license either October 1st or November 1st *, and have a license within 21 days after that.

Thank you Wisconsin Republicans, and thank you Lord.

* Even if Walker signs it into law tonight, La Follette could still delay publishing the law until next month (there are only seven more working days left in this month). The legislation takes effect on the first day of the fourth month beginning after publication.

When did this happen as I can find no actually news on this? I'm getting a sniff of bullshit...

And even if it happened, I don't trust Garage to give us the truth about what when down.

I'm betting the Libtards threw the first punch, or something like that. We've been through this with our resident moonbats 100 times. Days later, there's always more to the story that they left out, and they hide from the thread.

I don't know...this happened 5 hours ago and if it is what garage said it was there is no way it would miss the evening news. I mean, finally something that meets the narrative of "the violence of the tea party"...in Madison. And it goes unreported? No. Fucking. Chance.

Wisconsin State Journal has nothing on the story? From what I can tell, they have a constant presence at the Capitol every day. Always updating their online stuff, etc. Hard to believe they missed an arrest.

"This person was put in a headlock and punched in the face. Did that person have the right to use deadly force to protect themselves?"

Depends on how you can articulate the circumstances. How big was the attacker? How small was the victim? Someone punching you in the face to the point where you fear for your life is certainly a deadly force situation.

Of course it's up to a jury to decide, but as the old saying goes, "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."

"Wisconsin State Journal has nothing on the story? From what I can tell, they have a constant presence at the Capitol every day. Always updating their online stuff, etc. Hard to believe they missed an arrest."

The person who posted the pic in garage's is a WSJ reporter. The caption "Two men were arrested at the Capitol this afternoon after Solidarity singers say a singer was punched in the face." So it was heresay. Five hours later they don't have a story? That tells me one thing...there is no story. Because they would publish the accusation unless they in fact knew it wasn't true.

No, actually not. I don't recall you mentioning that one of the Solidarity singers was also charged with disorderly conduct, and that the alleged battery occurred after the singer tried to grab the Gadsden flag. The reason I don't recall it is because you didn't add it to your description. Odd.

Also, nothing in the story indicates that the man charged with battery is a Tea Party member.