"Best of all, there were hardly any beautiful women at the ...(1990)... rally. I saw a journalist friend of mine in the Mall, and he and I purused this line of inquiry as assiduously as our happy private lives allow. Practically every female at the march was a bowser. "We're not being sexist here," my friend insisted. "It's not that looks matter per se. It's just that beautiful women are always on the cutting edge of social trends. Remember how many beautiful women were in the anti-war movement twenty years ago? In the yoga classes fifteen years ago? At the discos ten years ago? On Wall Street five years ago? Where the beautiful women are is where the country is headed," said my friend. "And this," he looked around him, "isn't it."

This is a modernization of the 1960's peace marches. Instead of massing thousands of drugged hippies in one city, they mass digital photos of ancient hippies on a drug plan through the INTERNET.

I can not take these loons seriously. If they are so damned sincere about world peace, sending incomphrensible messages to the world is not a solution. Not unless "world peace" means everyone gets (and will accept!) a hug.

And if people from their own culture can't understand what these peaceniks want, how the heck are "Iraquis" supposed to get the message?

I shake my head in dismay. Could we have an exchange program with Europe? One of these weenies for someone with a brain and spine?

My heart is full of grief and shame, Tim, for spamming your "Club for Growth" post with a link to my "Apologize to Saddam" comedy goldmine. In hindsight, that was the wrong spam at the wrong post at the wrong time. I can do better.

I am sorry that we sank the aircraft carriers Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu and Soryu. My heart is filled with shame at the loss of so many young Japanese men and the hands of my government. Midway Island cannot be worth the deaths of so many innocent men and women, of all cultures, races and spiritual persuasions.

I am sure that you, the Japanese people, feel sorry for the loss of the airplane-carrying battleship "Yorktown" and all those men and women who died with her. But one less war-machine can only help the world be more peaceful.

This is easy enough to counter-act. The appropriate message here is "Democracy For Iraq". It's simple. It's hard to argue against. It could never have happened without Coalition forces overthrowing Saddam's regime. And Iraqis overwhelmingly support it.

How are these heart-messages flowing to Iraq? Are the now-oppressed Iraqui buying computers with their petro-dollars, and if so, how are they able to turn them on with the frequent American-incompetence-induced brownouts we hear so much about?

I have to say, this project has got to be the greatest single Photoshop challenge ever presented to us freedom lovers. I eagerly await your captions...

Disgusting. All these people have a kind of hippie/granola look more or less blurred by age. Doesn't look like there's a brain among them that hasn't been left on autopilot by leftist ideology for great lengths of time.

'cept for the white-haired dear on the right in the "drunk out of their minds" pic. She's probably just being a good sport. Sweet thing. I hope.

Having lived for 12 years in the Pacific Northwest, I know many people who wholeheartedly believe exactly the sentiments in these signs. They are earnest in their defense of the notion that, if our enemies simply understood us, if we could just apologize or otherwise make amends, then all would be well. They hold to the idea that war is ALWAYS wrong, even when the other guy is coming through your bedroom window with a machete and a bloodthirsty gleam in his eye. They would sooner die whimpering and cowering in the corner than to go to reasonable lengths to defend themselves. Many of them are dear, sweet people, but they are all absolutely as misguided as hell. These pictures make me sad for these people, and angry that the Left, who surely know better, are using them to try and turn popular opinion against President Bush.

Vanity, thy name is a bunch of clueless, middle aged people who have no idea how great they have it in this country.

BTW, being half Vietnamese, I can;t tell you the number of people who've said to me "I'm so sorry for what this country didi to your people." I ask, "were you a protester? Because if you were, you should be sorry. Your actions supported a government who tortured and oppressed millions of "my people." Shame on you." And these idiots think that they speak for peace.

Mostly toothless old cats with the fur falling out, AFAICT. Apologising to the junkyard dog because he just got run out of town by a bunch of the young toms.

And by the way, have you ever seen a better example of the Religious LEFT? First Church of Christ Socialist, was it?

On a more serious note, the Dems' major demographic problem is that these Left-Overs are dying at a clip of about 12 million every four years, and since millions of young leftists-to-be were aborted they are being replaced by increasingly conservative cohorts.

eastern mtns--I agree they can be amusing. Unfortunately, most of my husband's family falls into this category so it's something I have to put up with perhaps more personally than others. I keep hoping that at least a few of them might come to their senses. It has certainly made for some tense moments around the dinner table!

I've seen a lot of these types before. They are the old-time communist sympathizers. And I'm not over-stating this point. They were the ones that were actively involved in the communst party and UNA-USA-type peace movements. Think Alger Hiss. Same era.

Midwest mama - me too! My husband's family, and my husband are firmly in the "peace movement." Of course, when confronted with the reality of my family and the last "peace" movement, I'm told that my family needs to "get over it" and then they call me a communist. And no, I'm not kidding.

Wait a minute! These losers aren't in Texas, they're just down the road from me here in Connecticut! Last week they put up the "Ye Olde Buryin' Ground" sign at the old cemetery near the river. This week they're having a nude sit-in with nothing but popovers and bean sprouts covering their parts (Thank God). Idiots.

camille--I believe it. One really irritating aspect of peacenik groupthink is that it is based on feel-good emotionalism and not on rationality. They cannot be talked out of it; they just put their hands over their ears and refuse to hear you, then resort to name calling and ad hominem attacks. After all, they can't possibly be wrong, they're for peace. So it must be you who has the problem. Luckily, my husband is on my side.

Here's an open message to all the peacenik moonbats shown in those pictures. Check out the October 13th BBC article "Babies found in Iraqi mass grave", at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3738368.stm

All the American peaceniks who took pictures of their comfortable and well protected rearends should take a long look at the photos of the human remains that are being exhumed from mass graves in Iraq. Also, they should see the photos of the Iraqi survivors who have a hope for justice because the U.S. liberated them from Sadam Hussein.

These people are indeed nuts. They have no clue that they are fighting Fascism. I imagine that if they read this blog they might come to their senses and start getting militant in defending the enlightenment from you wack jobs instead of pushing this peace crap.

Get a life, folks. The Church of the Brethren is an historic peace church. They are willing to act on their belief that the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5-7) is a mandate for peacemaking, and that wars only produce a cycle of violence. You don't have to agree with that position; I don't, but you don't disprove it by name calling. You show it to be wrong by marshalling evidence to the contrary. Every one of your silly captions side-steps the real issue, by focusing on little things like misspelled words or tilted heads. You still haven't answered the substance of their protest. And so the only ones you're really making fools of is yourselves.

We apologize that some Americans do not support our troops and wish the terrorist victory, however Amercica supports you. Next up pictures from Iraqi Mass Graves, and ask the Kurds how much they liked Saddam.

There something in common about the physical appearance of old leftists. You can't put your finger on it right away. Like looking at a retarded person. Even if they don't talk you can still tell. I think being a leftist for so long destroys you from the inside out. Like pushing a square peg into a round hole. These people actually tried to apply the ideas of the 60's to reality while the rest of their generation grew up (to some degree anyway).

Actually, this is not the first that this protest has come up. These people are not original. But if you want more recent answers, well....

1. Read camile's posts above. She's half Vietnamese. You do remember the Vietnam War? If not, ask the people you're defending, I expect a lot them protested that one as well. Ask camile what she thinks.

2. Go to Iraq. Look at the mass graves that are Husseins' legacy to the Iraq that he claimed. Babies are buried in those graves, babies killed by the tyrant that you complain about the US toppling. I don't hear any wailing for those unnecessary deaths from these "forusa.org" moonbats. Now, or before we invaded Iraq. By default, you and the forusa.org moonbats are supporting fascism.

3. Who is killing who in Iraq? Are Coalition troops exclusively firing their weapons? Who lobs mortar rounds into a group of peace protestors (hey, they're your brethern in peace, man! Who car bombs children getting candy? An honest answer, less emotional outcries, would be appreciated. Eh? You can't speak? Try "terrorists" who want the old government back, or at least one that they can control. And why not? See point #2 above.

4. What has one of these people done for peace? Have they gotten their hands dirty by beating swords into plowshares? Have they volunteered to treat the illnesses of Iraqi children? Perhaps they gathered school supplies for the children, so that they can learn to read and write. Or is their involvement limited to crayons, paper, and digital camera?

Of these questions, I see #4 as being only one I can't already answer.....but I am curious as to how wrong I might be.

Didsbury - please read Camille's comment from 8:09 am*. I can't think of any "peace churches"** that can answer it comfortably -- they were all too busy supporting Fidel and the Sandinistas...

*her others are worth reading, too.
**and, like most "peace churches," their internal history reflects a series of fights that put a human face on pacifism. Start with the Wikipedia article and keep reading.

"So Jesus fashioned a whip and drove them all out of the temple along with sheep and cattle. He scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables." John 2:15

Yup, nuthin' but peace, love and soybeans from this Jesus fellow.

"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light, and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes." Isaiah 5:20-21.

"There is a time for everything ... a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down, and a time to build." Ecclesiastes 3:3

Yeah, I thought the same thing--otherwise, it really is a collection of extremely unattractive people.

Re: the "Jesus Beehive"--Actually, I think that's the Blessed Virgin.

Midwest Mama, we have several of this type of goofball in upstate New York and while they project a certain sweetness, it really doesn't take much discomfort or inconvenience to see them turn very nasty.

I understand the "Ugly American" stereotype we have abroad and these people traveling overseas are often the biggest provocateurs; they're exasperating.

See P.J. O'Rourke's hilarious story of traveling with such a "peace" group to the USSR in 1982. It's in his book "Republican Party Reptile". Brilliant.

This definitely puts the lie to the feminists' charge that George Bush has violated every left-wing woman on the planet.

Judging from the looks of these moonbats Bush would have had 8 kinds of pox by now and be in no condition to run for President without using up every drop of penicillin, antitoxin, and flu vaccine in the nation's strategic reserve ... hey, wait a minute ...

Sad, so sad, looking at those serious little insects, I'm reminded of a few lines by C.S.Lewis...."Of all the tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims is the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our
own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
Where are those guy's from T4 when you need them?

The substance of their protest is they think the USA invaded a country like Sweden. They have no clue that Saddam killed about 500,000 of his own people. Saddam used rape squads to terrorize people and solicit information. He gassed his own people and Iranians. Saddam paid “martyrs” to kill Jews. He harbored terrorists. He had bound people thrown off 3-4 stories buildings in order to maim them. He starved hundreds of thousands of his subjects in order build 60 palaces. He forbade freedom speech and freedom of religion. Nearly on a daily basis, he shot at American and British airplanes enforcing the UN sanctions – an act of war. He used the Sunni minority to suppress the Shiite majority.

Come to think of it, other than this, Iraq was just like Sweden only warmer.

Hmmm. Be nice to rustle up some alternative poster holders, you know, ones that fly in the face of moral fashion.
Examples:
"Citizens of Iraq - enjoy your freedom. No charge."
"Sadaam - How do you like THEM apples?"
"Sic Semper Tyrannis Baath-holes"

The apologies are insulting and disgusting, but what more can you expect from a "sorry" looking lot of rabble like this. These people were born to suck up to tyrants. A phrase from one of Patrick O'Brian's novels comes to mind, "an ill-looking parcel of bastards".

Major bummer, my hippie aunt would happen to show up in one of those pictures.
How embarrassing.
Although, not surprising considering we got in a yelling match in which she was telling me how great Castro is.

I'm a Christian. I understand peacemaking, I understand what Jesus meant by his moral injunctions to peacemaking, and what he meant by "peace." Peace can be achieved, you dope, or it can be MAINTAINED until the evil metastasizes.

I also know Jesus reminded us to "know the evil", and no blinkered and comfortable pacifism by any church anywhere, at any time in the last horrific century or the first part of this one, saved a single life. Souls maybe, not lives.

The boxcars rolled nevertheless and the stupid and vile resistance of these pictured fools mocks every frozen grave in every Gulag, every tortured and murdered soul from the Horn to Murmansk.

Only one thing motivates these folks: fear and loathing not of war, not of tyranny, but of the US. It is, after all, the locus of all the ills in the world. I refer you to the pronouncements of the latest Nobel Peace Prize winner.

So, it has come to making fun of peaceniks, has it? Do you people stop to think about what you're doing? Instead, why don't you try making a well-reasoned, well-supported argument for a change. Try to explain, for example, how we are safer now that Bush has created 10,000 more bin Ladens with his ill-conceived war. Think hard. I know you can do it.

"We're sorry, Iraqis, we tried to prevent your liberation and prolong Saddam's murderous tyranny over you, but that evil Bush and his Satanic Neo-con supporters went ahead and liberated you anyway. Can you ever forgive us?"

More of the looney "Blame America First" gang. What a bunch of effing, arrogant morons. Do they really think the Iraqis preferred mass murder and mass graves to liberation? Here's the creed of the retarded clowns in those photos: "Them darkies, they needs a dictator to rule 'em, 'cuz they cain't rule themselves, ya know."

Those placards need better Christian production values if you want to get the attention of those crazy 'Lamist kids ....the hottest selling DVDs are the beheading series (with a bullet)...you have a jaded audience there people.
I suggest more body parts scattered about.

Uhh...I guess you'd say we're safer because the 10,000 jihadists are fighting in Iraq instead of in downtown L.A. As for Bush "creating" the jihadists, I think the Islamofascist schools and terrorist training camps are doing that. They'd hate us no matter who was in the White House--as they have these past decades. George Bush did not create this jihad.

Tell all those that died at the hands Sadaam and his cronies that you are sorry, tell that to the women who now have freedoms- if you are sorry for anyone be sorry for the lack of sense the un has - no backbone - i guess we should have let Sadaam kill maybe 5 or 6 million more innocent people - is Sadaam was a ruler here and killing thousands - guess you would have to wait till the end of time before German, France and Russia would help us, hus? SEE THE BIG PICTURE!

I would avoid the condescension if I were you, particularly when it comes to mental attributes.

Any argument for peace which is based upon the number of excess enemies who reveal themselves and choose to fight back ONCE THE WAR IS UNDERWAY, is simply stupid. What would proof of your argument look like? Possibly a precise estimate of the number of enemy combatants and then a confirming headcount once we got them. That's brilliant.

Inherent in your argument too is that enemies are harmless if temporarily inert, and they remain so if you don't push the stick into their nest. This too is silly. It works with bees, but this is bigger, in case you haven't noticed. Yours is an argument based in cowardice.

>Uhh...I guess you'd say we're safer because the
>10,000 jihadists are fighting in Iraq instead of in
>downtown L.A. As for Bush "creating" the jihadists,
>I think the Islamofascist schools and terrorist
>training camps are doing that.

To Midwest Mama: You would be referring to the jihadists that we trained, funded, and protected when it served our purposes? See, we do actually have an effect on the world. Our policies DO matter. Bush has convinced you folks that they hate us whatever. Not true. They hate what we do. If we didn't piss on the rest of the world, they wouldn't hate us. And, yes, I love America, just as much as you.

Baloney, Rick. It's not what we have or haven't done to anyone that's got them pissed off. It's the fact that we EXIST, period. We are the infidel. Their leaders have convinced them it is Western Civilization that is at the root of all their troubles, not their own oppressive fascisistic regimes. Excuse me if I doubt your love for America when you seem insistent on blaming us for everything that has gone wrong.

The problem with the peaceniks is that they think that peace is the absence of war. As anyone who has been shredded in an industrial shredder could tell you, had they the opportunity, this is not necessarily the case.

As long as there are people living under regimes that can do that, there is no peace. There is only quiet. If you're far enough away that is.

Rick,
We've been gining these clowns well reasoned, well supported arguments for resisting tyranny and terrorism for years and nothing we say changes their puny minds. They were frozen in stupidity back in 1968, or had the stupidity passed on to them from such a frozen mind. They are, by their own intentions, invincibly ignorant. They will explode, hysterically indignant, about some small matterr of US guilt, frequently imaginary, while blithly ignoring gulags, Iles of Pines, and Saddamite mass murder. To give them more rational aguments, when they have already ignored both previous arguments and the actual events taking place in the world, is like giving medicine to the dead in hopes of reviving them.

Hey Rick,
You said:
"Try to explain, for example, how we are safer now that Bush has created 10,000 more bin Ladens with his ill-conceived war."
Saddam's gone - to answer first part of your questions.
And no, the job is not finished.

10,000? why not 1million?
Where did you get your 'statistics'?
Please, provide references.
"Think hard. I know you can do it."
We know it too.
Not so sure about your marbles

How interesting. Pissing on the rest of the world? Listen, your Edward Said nonsense might play pretty well in the lounges of the student center, or the common room where there is sea of nodding heads, but it only reassures The Left that you have an intellectual anchor for your various frustrations and irrelevance.

The Pan-Arab or Pan-Muslim World (including Iran) is what it is today because of structrual and social weaknesses, largely traceable to Islam and anti-modernism. This has NOTHING whatever to do with colonialism, and everything to to do with Wahabbism, the Third Jihad and the establishment of the Great Caliphate. Sorry Rick. You're no challenge.

"We" didn't "create" any enemies. You cannot compare Vietnam to Iraq, simply because the times were different, the politics were different, and frankly, the Vietnamese had a hell of a lot more freedom than the Iraqi people did.

Let's not also forget that by the time the US rolled into 'Nam, the Vietnamese were already hating foreigners. Remember when they kicked the French out? Forcibly?

Rick... WOW! Bush personally created 10,000 Jihadists? WOW. Mind blowing man. How was it done? Cloning with host mothers? Or do you mean he personally impregnated 10,000 women. Gosh, no wonder he sometimes looks tired and forgets his lines at debates.

10,000 Wow! Did Laura know about it? Was she as bowled over by the sheer potency of her husband as I am?

If you were told that going to war with Saddam Hussein in 1991 (to protect our way of life) would cost billions of dollars, kill 100,000 Iraqis, and yet leave Saddam in power, to counter which we would base troops in Saudi Arabia and impose draconian sanctions on millions of innocent Iraqis, which, in turn, could inflame the Arab and Muslim world, which could then lead to the rise in extremism which might result in a terrorist attack on American soil that could kill thousands of Americans and change our way of life, which then might compel us to go back to Iraq and spend $150 billion dollars on another war, sacrifice thousands of American lives, kill a few more innocent Iraqis accidentally, battle Shiite and Sunni insurgents and terrorists...

The familiarity of your words is really striking. If one were to just substitute "Communist" for "Islamofacist," I'd have thought we were back in the fifties.

Who was it who said, "those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it?"

"...nothing whatever to do with colonialism..." This is an interesting comment. So you don't see any link between the current war and the Wolfowitz crowd (including his buddies Project for a New American Century)? It is their explicit goal to establish unchallanged control to resources such as oil. Or is that just a coincidence?

Rick
you should move to France . Salinger's house is now empty and all those Avignon sophisticates just love anti american americans. No doubt they'll adopt you instantly.

MAmma
your comments about the dolce lattes covering up their ears to any attrocities commited by NON AMERICANS ARE SO TRUE!
In london i spoke to a group of Baptists who had complained about the "rough" armed guards who protected them during their tour of duty in Bangladesh. when i mentioned to them the treatment metered out to those who preach Christianity in radical Islamic states they did just thAt
Abu Ghraib was open territory for discussion, but Al Zaqwari's attrocities were cover up your ears topics.

The current hostilities began in 1978; people like you and Jimmy Carter, Ford, Reagan and Clinton just didn't notice it.

The invasion of Kuwait had to be reversed, unless you want Windmills off the Massachusetts coast, which Kerry certainly doesn't.

Second, not taking out Saddam the first time should have appealed to you off the bat because it wasn't part of the UN goal.

Third, the Arab World was not inflamed by our presence in Saudi Arabia and the "Muslim world" because of Gulf War I. The reasons for their "inflaming" run pretty deep and have gone on for a long time (mostly due to deep and broad problems with Islam itself). And BTW, how do you explain Arab Muslims killing black Muslims in the Sudan.I know, it's our fault for waging war in 1991. I get it.

Fourth. Your pacifism and concern for "innocents" is the pacifism of the comfortable. War is what it is. Again, you either achieve the peace or maintain it...and your argument is for mass graves. The ones that exist and the ones to come.

Rick, how many dollars are we "pissing" on the rest of the world with every year? We are the most generous country in the world, both in fortune shared and lives of our soldiers that we give to allow others the chance at freedom and democracy.

The only peeing associated with this post is what I almost did from laughing so hard.

Asking what we would have done 1991 knowing what we do now is merely using the 20/20 vision of hindsight. This approach is valid only if you have a time machine handy.

What we can do is learn from our decisions, good and bad. There were, for that time, perfectly valid reasons to do what we did.

And, in fact, we did learn from the 1991 Gulf War. Then, we should have rolled into Baghdad and put Saddam into jail, and screw the opinion of the Islamic world, instead of leaving that sadistic tyrant in power to brutalize his people, corrupt other governments, and support terrorism.

Terribly cute of you to use "communist" as the comparative for "Islamofascist", but I think both of these authoritarian movements ACTUALLY EXIST.
That may come as a surprise to you, but then, reverse red-baiting is your game. Before long we'll be hearing about McCarthyism.

Without history and revisionism, you would be mute, Rick old boy.

Tell me. Is it true that when people say "con" they mean conservative, and when they say "neocon" they mean Jewish? I think you've dropped your notes and I picked them up. What else don't you like about the Neocons?

I don't get my information from Bush. Radical muslims hate us and want to kill or convert the whole world. This is what they say openly. In their mosques, in their audio tapes and dvds they pass around, and on the internet. Search it yourself, it won't be a problem to find an english language website that promotes all of this.

You claim that we have brought on this hate. I don't doubt that you think we deserve to be murdered. though you won't admit to it.

Well what do all the religious and ethnic minorities are reguarly murdered in muslim countries do to deserve their fate?

What about the black muslims are exterminated in Africa by arab muslims?

These people are on the other side. They have no tears for anyone not killed by Americans or Israelis. Where are their tears for the children slaughtered in Beslan? Where are their tears for the Shiites murdered in the mosques in Pakistan by the Sunnis? Where are their tears for ordinary people killed by criminals?

These people are what I call 'morality fascists'. They claim to have a superior morality. Anyone who disagrees can not be considered to have a different opinion or to be wrong, no. They are evil. This is where the Bush=Hitler crap comes from. This is why they oppose the death penalty. We care so much for every life, that you can't be barbaric and kill the murderer. They are a child of God too. No tears for the murdered. No tears for the imprisoned burglar, who gets killed by one of these killers.

For these Morality Fascists, like with all fascists, only certain people count. Others can be slaughtered with impunity. I'd love to have 10 minutes with one of these creeps, they'd be left a quivering puddle excrement, when I get through with them.

Ok, Eric. Now you've made an assertion. Now please explain where these 100k Jihadists would have come from and why.

You asserted first, you back yours up. Regardless, you made up your number, I made up my number. Or do you have access to some sort of Jihadist census?

Do you deny Bin Laden's own speaches cited his organization's ability to increase its numbers in huge waves after every Al-Qaeda operation that the West didn't respond to? That he and others would point to the West's non-response as weakness, proof of our deserving to be wiped out, and actually brought in many new recruits?

I quite like France. People there know how to have civil discourse. (Besides, what's not to like about a country that has a 4 day work week!).

Here's the point y'all seem to be missing: it is a game of bait-and-switch. OBL is the enemy. No, wait, SH is the enemy. The goal-- create the permanent justification for war. The result-- American facism.

Thank you very much. Having been there gives me perspective on this war. I have three sons involved in it, which will give Rick pause. Four military nutcases in ONE family. All the facts are in place to suit the Lefty mythology about us authoritarian personalities.

I'm new here, and won't stay too long. Jabba is on to something, too. The Left is a sink of postmodern thinking, more nihilist than relativist, and the light of liberalism flickered out in it long ago. Leftism is what remains, kind of a zombified entity with no soul. Just a lot of complaints combined with the urge to destroy and regress to a world that never existed. Very strange.

Baiting you? You bait someone when you leave false charges. You bait someone when you misconstrue and prepare for the answer. You brought this stuff up. How come you sneak away when the facts and implications of your "argument" are pointed out.

Rule Number Two in Discourse for Lefties: When your arguments are successfully disputed, when your facts are effectively dismantled, when your reflextive fallback is exposed, charge the oppostion with being surly and rude.

Almost as touching as the idiots who claim that Israel does not have the right to kill her enemies. Disgusting.
Joshua Salik
Salik Games
http://salikgames.home.att.net/wsb/stickindex.html
"The empty half of the glass is always at the top"

Once upon a time I could have been one of the poor fools in the pictures above. Thankfully, I have seen the light. Can't help but wonder how many joints were smoked by the people above, before they took their pictures.

There seems to be 2 options that we have. Stop the spread if Islamofacisim now,or learn the Quaran, fast. I'm just not enough of a linguist to learn Arabic.

HOORAY! It only took a few post to smoke you out, which is some kind of a record. Now we can get somewhere, because all the rest of your totems, you fictions and incantations about Bush (Leftism is superstition, Rick) have fallen off.

Now we know WHO you are, not what you think. The thinking of the neocons is an extension of the old internationalism of the old Democratic Party, beginning with the Truman Doctrine, on down to JFK and it fizzled there because the party began to look a lot like you.

Why does that offend you? Do you not like The West. The Muslim world can fly planes into buildings but they can't build planes. They can build car bombs but not cars. Don't they deserve a piece of the world that has made YOU so arrogant?

"The Jews are denigrated in many references in the Koran. They are described, for example, as enemies of Allah (2:97-98), always disobedient (5:78), enemies of the believers (5:85), condemned for their disobedience (2:88, 4:46, 50, 5:13, 60, 69, 78), and consigned to humiliation and wretchedness (59:3)."

(this is after Muhammad respected the Jews and even borrowed some of their traditions until they refused to accept him as a prophet)

and

" 'Know that every Muslim is a Muslim's brother, and that the Muslims are brethren; fighting between them should be avoided, and the blood shed in pagan times should not be avenged; Muslims should fight all men until they say, 'There is no god but God.'-Muhammad's last message during his final visit to Mecca ' "

finally,

"With Muhammad's death, support for the Prophet's faith weakened and tribes that had pledged their allegiance to him began to distance themselves from their agreements. Abu Bakr [his successor] responded by strengthening his army and imposing his will by conquest."

All quotes cited from "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Middle East Conflict", Bard, Mitchell G., 1999.

These ignorant people trivialize the seriousness of war and the terrible consequences it has on those called to fight in combat. The truth is this: the vast majority of real pacifists in this country WEAR or HAVE WORN the uniform. They yearn for a soldier's peace when the iniquity of the enemy is so crushed he has no more bullets. Our problem in Iraq today is that we (again) fought a soldier's war, but settled for a diplomat's peace. Where were these fools then when our leadership allowed Saddam to remain in power...

Jabba
you hit the nail on the head.
Only sins commited by Americans are acknowledged (and greatly amplified). Those commited by NON americans are cover-up-your-ears material.
Why
Because of theis masachistism which tell them that we must all beat ourselves with olive branches. i am reminded of the first christians who were said to have died without raising an arm in self defence under the swords of the Romans.
This of course is depicted as Moral bravery!
TO Islamofascists it is an outright sign of the inferioroty of christianity ti ISLAm and they love it.
To each his own.
Ghandi and Martin kuther king advocated such passive resistance.
But how effective would it have been against Islamic mujehadin or the Nazi regime?
Because only democracy respects this type of resistance

I don't agree with these people's opinions but I do not think it is respectful to simply mock them. If you disagree, present arguments but don't simply make sniping remarks.

I'd agree with you but these people offer an opinion as fact, and act on it as though it is the only solution possible. If someone sits in their living room and spouts this noise, fine.

But when they deliberately export it in the name of America, to a country (Iraq) that does not need defeatism, spin, nor abandonment, it goes beyond ignorance into arrogance.

These fools do not speak for this country. If they want to apologize publicly, I can't stop them. But there is no reason as to why I should respect their opinion when it undermines the Coalition. This encourages the enemy.

Remember when Senator Kennedy was prancing around the country shouting "IRAQ IS ANOTHER VIETNAM"?

About a week later, al Sadr (who lead the Shia insurrection in Najaf) was preaching "Iraq is Vietnam!" to his supporters.

The same problem exists here. They are encouraging the enemy by sending the message, "Omigawd, I want outa Iraq!".

If these people want to "apologize" to Iraqis, go over there and do so by deeds; fix water systems, provide medical care, hold the hands of wounded, rebuild schools....oh, wait!. The Coalition (including the US military) is already doing that.

Well, then do not e-mail silly signs around the world. It is a stupid idea.

Thanks to everyone here for putting up with me. You, too Rick. Rick might have a good heart, but he seems to have been bewitched by a lifetime of indoctrination. I should probably leave.

In response to Yojimbo and Nick. Nick has the soldier's long view of war, and I recognize his insight. Both of us probably have something to say about loss, about the slog of war and the life that follows it. Mentioning it is not to evoke sympathy, to expect anything, or to set us apart from anyone who hasn't been there. We all have our burdens, and war is sometimes not the worst of them. Veterans know something, but not everything.

To Yojimbo, thank you. 700,000 in re-education camps, 500,000 or more across the borders, and maybe another 750,000 put to sea to escape the totalitarians of mid century. They deserved better, just as every human being does. If that makes me a neocon, so be it.

I hope that one day, they'll be right. The Lion will lie down with the Lamb, and more importantly, the Lamb will get up again afterwards.

But I'll state the obvious. In the meantime, there are people like Saddam, and Hitler, and Pol Pot, and many other people who follow them. People who can commit Beslan, or Auschwitz. And until they're gone, maybe the holier-than-thou could show a little less contempt for the victims.

As for me?

I'm sorry we went into Iraq in 2003. I'm sorry we didn't go in much earlier. And I'm sorry we don't have a Magical Uber-Weapon that would only kill the guilty and spare the innocent (though we're working on it...) I'm sorry that my attitudes are not obsolete. I'm especially sorry

There is no bait and switch. OBL's followers and other similar members of terrorists organizations are the natural outcome of having Islamofacist regimes with their boots pressed down on the necks of the Arab people. Saddam had a particularly heavy boot and he was constantly threatening to exchange it for a sword with his posturing about WMDs. Now he's gone.

More democracy = less terrorists

The creation of a democracy in Iraq is a huge step in the direction of liberating the people of the Middle East. Free people aren't too keen on blowing themselves up or following some crazy murderous nut like OBL. Free people are keen on other things like iced-mochas, porn, fried food, reality TV, and eBay.

>the Wolfowitz crowd (including his buddies
>Project for a New American Century)

Oh, please, Ricky, don't stop there. Let's hear about the Tri-Lateral Commission. The Masons. The Illuminati. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. The Joooooos.

And I thought it was really cute how you pulled the "10,000 new recruits for OBL" figure out of your ass, then demanded that the other poster back up his 100,000 figure with a source. Priceless.

I have a feeling you're big on multiculturalism. Like most of your ilk, though, you haven't a fucking clue about cultural differences. Let me tell you something about Arabs - they respect strength, and despise weakness. The surest way to grow their numbers is to negotiate and prevaricate. I know this will come as a shock to you, but the whole world doesn't think like middle-class grad students, and international relations aren't a seminar.

Oh, and controlling access to resources - it's what all nations try to do. That's how they survive. That's why you have a computer and the electricity to run it and post your naive, mendacious, boilerplate drivel, you smug parasite.

Rick--you seem to be ignoring the fact that it is a tiny minority of Iraqis, reinforced by foreign fighters, who are causing all the trouble. The majority of Iraqis are glad to be out from under Saddam, although I'm sure they wish the war would be over so they could get some kind of normal life.

Using the term 'quagmire' does nothing but convince me you're speaking from the usual liberal talking points. President Bush made it clear long ago that he won't negotiate with terrorists because he knows that's a lost cause. And I resent your statement that we want an excuse to treat all muslims as if they were bad when that is not the case at all. Attempting to impute evil motives to people who are trying to make a positive difference and let Iraq rule itself is just intellectually dishonest.

Tim, as you probably know, that 'compassionate head tilt' has an interesting ethological interpretation. The animal that tilts its head to another animal is displaying its neck (one of its most vulnerable body parts) as a gesture of submission, saying, in effect, "See? I'm giving you permission (and easy access) to slice my head off. Please, though, be nice to me and don't do it, okay? Please?"

Comments about beheading are too obvious to make. Suffice it to say that an infidel's 'compassionate head tilt' is a welcome sight to an Islamist, causing him to reach for his sword without delay.

Germany, Japan and South Korea were all turned into democracies by force. None of them had a history of democracy. In fact, you could argue that Japan and S. Korea were further from democracy than present day Iraq and Afghanistan. They didn’t have the benefit of modern communications to disseminate ideas. We will succeed in Iraq and Afghanistan as long as we ignore dick heads like these and keep doing what we are right now.

I'd much prefer these Saddam apologists go to Iraq to apologize to the Iraqis in person, preferably before the election. That way, with any luck, the terrorists would pick them up one by one and do that hostage head-sawing off thing they do, thereby saving innocent hostages a fate they didn't ask for, let alone deserve.

What a clever little moron with the kickbushout tag. Without it he probably couldn't remember who he was, or what to say without his George Soros For Dummies bedside reader. This is the low end of the already diminished product line of modern education. His parents should sue.

THIS is the oppostion. A bunch of intellectual shut-ins with an associate's "degree" in Poli Sci, a spurious humanitarianism to amplify their self-importance, and a computer.

I don't recall ANY Iraqis but Saddam, his henchmen and the Head-Sawing Terrorists ever asking for an apology.

Does any whack-job, America and freedom hating lefty have any record of Iraqis NOT associated with the former regime or the terrorists demanding an apology?

Also, Bill, there once was a time, long ago, when naked "peace activists" would have been pretty cool sight to see - but they've long since grown up, so it best for all involved for them to keep their duds on...

Thank you all for an interesting conversation. It's been good to give my opinion and very entertaining to see some uber-iberals taken apart by the likes of Rhod. They're so predictable it's almost like shooting fish in a barrel, though, isn't it? Pathetic, really. Well, as indicated by my name, I am a mama and need to now go and do mama things.

>We are killing people by the dozen every day that
>didn't do fuck to you.

Here's some math for you:

sV/sD - cV/cD = STFU

where

sV = total number of Saddam's victims
sD = duration of Saddam's regime in days
cV = innocent victims of Coalition attacks
cD = number of days since Coalition first struck Iraq
STFU = a positive integer.

I'm on the left on most issues--pretty far left in some cases. I would agree that apologising to Sadaam is a ridiculous idea, and that obviously many Iraqis are glad that he is gone. That still doesn't mean that the war was the right thing to do. Deposing Sadaam might have been an OK idea, but it should have been pretty far down the nation's priority list.

Rick, have you ever lived in France? I have, and have a good bit of family there, as well. This civil discourse you speak of - are you talking about the very frequent strikes that cripple transporation or trash collection? Do you know anything about their history? Look, I love my family and I enjoyed living there, but take off the blinders man! Health care is awful (many seek private health care), taxes are through the roof, the GDP is nothing to write home about, and their foreign policy has consistently been on the cruel side of history. My goodness, every time I read about France I heaqr calliope music in my head. They are ridiculous! Rick, perhaps you need to experience some other cultures and talk to some people who actually know what oppression is.

Your wishing so does not make it so. Didn'tcha know it worked pretty well in Japan and Germany.

If you try try, you end up with a quagmire on your hands.

Quagmire! Quagmire! Gawd, how 2003 of you. Your wishing so does not make it so.

It is still a fact that the more Iraqi civilians we kill, the more will stand up and fight us.

Your wishing so does not make it so. Perhaps you haven't heard that Iraqi police recruiting numbers go up with every car bomb that these terrorist monsters set off. (The mere fact that you think "we", i.e. American troops, are deliberately killing "Iraqi civilians" shows how deluded you are.)

It is still a fact that Islamofacism is an invention to treat all muslims alike (i.e., racism).

No, it's not. (Altogether now:) Your wishing so does not make it so. If the Bush doctrine really was about collectively holding all Muslims responsible for Islamofascist terrorism, Mecca would be sporting a nice radioactive glow by now.

As someone above pointed out, you seem to be under the impression that both Islamofascism and Communism are just inventions by evil right-wingers to keep the masses in fear. As one who was born in a Communist country, I can assure you that you're very mistaken about Communism, you revisionist idiot.

And apropos Communism and those peaceniks pictured...I bet they didn't just protest against the Vietnam War, they were probably also on the streets to support the Nuclear Freeze movement. You know, the movement that would have happily consigned people like me into another decade or five behind the Iron Curtain. Message to leftover 60s protesters: Please, go and die off already. The world will be a better place when you do. And after all, you've been trying to make the world a better place all along, right?

Camile, I'm a Vietnam Vet. I never protested, I fought. My heart bleeds still for the loss of your lovely country and its friendly, intelligent people.

As for the morally bankrupt and intellectually deprived individuals in these photos, you should all be arrested and sentenced to sift the sands of the mass graves in Iraq until every single bone of every single person murdered by Saddam Hussein and his government have been recovered. Then, perhaps, you can understand the depth of the depravity you display in these photographs, and the insanity of your worldview. As for that bunch from Lafayette, may you NEVER AGAIN win a football game against Northwestern, may you consistently lose at basketball to Louisiana College - by double-digits, and may all the crawfish in Lafayette Parish migrate to Marksville.

Bill Schick be very, very careful what you wish for. Look at those pictures and imagine any of them naked, or worse, a bunch of them naked together. Such a thing would probably be a violation of my human rights. I'm moving the barf bucket closer to my desk just in case.

Didsbury I'm truly sorry...You've helped me to realize that we 'fascist' 'right-wingers' haven't yet "answered [to] the substance of their protest". As you well know, we haven't really done much of any of the heavy 'intellectual' lifting required of reaching out to embrace the sincere love that groks forth from those caring patchoulied souls on your side of God's rather modern center-aisle in this, the marketplace of ideas. So in the comforting spirit of masturbatory understanding, please let me extend a shaved palm to share with you my particular understanding of the real-world practicality envisaged in the great circle-jerk that moistens the delicate emotional lattice of their pacifism - This matrix (Ooooo) of peace, bound together as it is by the "substance of their protest".

Anyway...Telling those prettily dripping little globules of potentiated irrelevance all the while, "you have a choice you know!"..."Let the affordable, civilized, commoditized, globalized and otherwise fragile tissue of modern society absorb your no-doubt creative essence to add to the whole productive roll of human existence, or of course if you will, you can always just succumb to the fundamentally headless sawing-actions of cognitive failure that's currently tooting your collective marching orders whilst tamping comforting multicultural suicide paths to your glistening red petite mort égalitaire...Satiated innaction only writ dangerously large by the actions of similarly bobble-headed unrealnik drones seeking instead 72 vestal virgins in their equally flawed construct of an 'egalitarian' hereafter.

All the while our reality averse champions with their blood flecked banner of faux peace troop their peaceful ways ever downward into the shadow of their well flagellated utopian construct, blissfully unaware that the shameful act of hitch-hiking at the nuanced whim of surface-tension diktats is like nowhere dude." "Just another retreaded cold war era utopian 'nowhereland' where hardly ever a capitalist bosom-enabled [sub]urban hookah dream has ever really amounted to much of anything beyond the useful nihilistic idiocy rolling 'progressively' onward by offering a mere (cough!) puff of a glimpse at the postmodern-pale inner-thighways that meander their shiny happy ways directly off unseen, but rather fleshy, cliffs - A yes, the gentleman's path...Skyward but ultimately earthward off said cliffs to the easy sort of utopian freedoms afforded you kind volk by that familiarly overfull, though always accomodating, leftmost dustbin of historic disaster".

The deadline for submission was October 12, but it doesn't say what year. I figure we have another year yet! Send in those submissions on behalf of the Iraqis denied the chance to see the FOTR photos by Saddam.

The Campaign of Conscience for the Iraqi People coordinator is Hossein Alizadeh and can be e-mailed at:
iraq@forusa.org

These pathetically misguided pacifists reminded me of what George Orwell said of Gandhi in his essay "Reflections on Gandhi." Although Orwell admired many of Gandhi's qualities, he thought that Gandhi took pacifism to an immoral extreme.

Gandhi advocated non-violent resistance to the Japanese army that was moving across Southeast Asia towards India.

As Orwell put it, "When in 1942, he [Gandhi] urged non-violent resistance against a Japanese invasion, he was ready to admit that it might cost several million deaths."

This is the face of modern liberal religion. It has fallen to this not because of its obsession with peace, but with its inability to to have a credible theology of evil. The assumption behind everyone of these pictures and posters is that Sadaam is like us, and can be negotiated to peace. For a class of people who believe in and advocate diversity, the reality is that they do not understand how people are different. They believe that it is primarily just a matter of politics.
It is sad, very sad that these people who advocate something so important as peace in the world, can be so misguided and wrong about how peace is achieved.

Sorry, forgot to say that I was new to this blog, linked from instapundit.

Raised liberal, turned conservative when Clinton and Dinkins (former NYC mayor) showed me how bad and misguided the thinking can be on the left. Not to mention that I saw some horrible crap investigating child abuse that the left would just keep forgiving and enable it to contiue.

Similar to what is happening now. Most of you have some great arguments about why we are at war. People need to see that enabling extremoterrorists bent on interpreting what I quoted above to mean "Convert or Die" is only going to get more people killed than any number anyone can imagine. You can say all you want about America's failures on foreign policy in it's short history, but this fight goes back over 2 millenia. Elie Weisel understands the whole picture. And, if we are going to blame America, then we need to blame every other country for their failed policies also. You cannot talk about one without talking about all, including factual historical events from the beginning of time and how the world (on all seven continents), as we know it now, has developed.

As the structure and values of this country continue to erode via political correctness, the erosion of values set through christianity, those of you on the left need to take care at what kind of life you wish for. The Russians wished for the same as you in 1917, the Germans in 1930s, and the French in 1789.

Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country - Goering

Grow up you right-wing tards. What's next - compare them to rodents. You people make me sick.

Old patriot, I'll speak for my mother, aunties, uncles and cousins (all of whom either worked for the US or fought with) when I thank you. The treatment that you and your fellow soldiers received when you returned is shameful and disgraceful. Oh, I also loved your crawfish line!

Gotta love the "I am a mother..." one. Hope she's not planning on homeschooling. By the way, what's up with pointing out that she's a mother? Is she somehow uniquely qualified to pronounce on foreign policy, due to the fact that she managed to accomplish something that approximately half the human population does? It's like me saying "I can walk unaided and I support Bush!" What does it *mean*, for God's sake?

"All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."

*************************************88

Ah, it's always good to hear from the Michael Moore "There is no terrorism" school of *ahem* "thought."

You should check out MEMRI sometime, you clueless wonder. The populace of the entire Arab/Muslim world receives unrelenting indoctrination in hatred of Western Civilization. THIS is why they hate us, and not so much any particular thing we have or haven't done.

We ARE being attacked. In the face of this, pacifism is akin to suicide.

These are the most disgraceful pictures I have ever seen. I am ashamed to say I am 62 years old and wonder what the hell has gotten into people who have seen what the Saddams of the world have done first hand? Had we not gone into Iraq people would still be dying by the hundreds if not thousands under Saddam. Do the mass graves not say anything to you left wing jerks? It is their country but that doesn' t mean they didn't want help throwing out the killer called Saddam. And speaking to "growup: you are the one who needs to mature a little. Read some REAL history, you might learn something.

There something in common about the physical appearance of old leftists. You can't put your finger on it right away. Like looking at a retarded person. Even if they don't talk you can still tell.

In V.S. Naipaul's novel A Bend in the River the protagonist is at a reception with a group of foreign aid/NGO/United Nations types. He notes the same thing. "There was something unfinished about them", Naipaul writes. They did not seem to have completed the transition into complete adulthood (I'm paraphrasing this part because I can't remember the exact wording). The passage struck me because I had observed the same phenomenon myself.

Does anyone know if that was Lafayette, Indiana? I'm from Lafayette and grew up attending the church of the Brethern! They were pacifist..very nice, sincere people in that church, many of the men became orderlies and medic's during vietnam..at least they served and didn't flee to Canada.

Anyway..I was laughing pretty hard until I ran across that photo. Thankfully, their teachings didn't quite take in my case.

You guys are a bunch of fucking monkeys that deserve everything the Bushies are going to do to you. Unfortunately, they're fucking over everybody, except the super-rich.

These people in these pictures are against a war based on lies and I didn't see any signs in favor of Saddam (who was supported by the Reagan administration when he was gassing Kurds and Iranians which you must have forgotten too). They are in favor of the Iraqi people who have been occupied by our forces. And you assholes know we're not leaving. We're there to establish bases and establish hegemony over the whole area. In the end it won't work, but thousands, maybe millions will die. And how many will lose children? Will lose limbs? Will lose their humanity.

You are bloodthirsty fucks and I'd almost feel sorry for you if this war could be brought to an end sometime soon.

And the Vietnam war? It accomplished so much didn't it? Certainly stopped the country from turning communist? Well worth 55,000 US lives. And of course, the lives of all those Vietnamese don't count anyway.

This isn't a war on terrorism, or to find weapons of mass destruction. It's a racist bid to start World War III. Just might work.

freepers and FOX viewers think we were attacked by Saddam, as do all the happy monkeys jumping into the insult game here. All Arabs and Muslims are all the same, right. Racist and/or ignorant shitheads all of you.

Meanwhile, keep making fun of people who protest the war. After all some are funny looking and fit a stereotype you're fond of making fun of.

This page is easily one of the most disgusting ones I've ever scene. You freeper types make me wanna move to another planet. Just knowing we breath the same air makes me wanna vomit. I hate all of you more than words can ever explain.

You're absolutely right, sonetka. I am a mother also, does that mean I should not believe that war is a necessary evil? It is something that will never go away because good cannot exist without evil, otherwise good cannot be defined.
What the left wants is for everyone to think, talk, and act alike. There is no room for individuality-the whole idea of "group-think". The problem with this ideal, or star-trekkian utopia, is that we are all individuals, whether good or bad or indifferent. That will never change (Unless of course you become Hitler and create a master race). So there will be very very baaaad people out there who want to hurt others and there will have to be very very goooood people (or at least your run-of-the-mill antihero) who will want to stop them.

I met a male friend of a friend a few weeks ago who told me that a republican woman was ludicrous, all because I support Bush, am an agnostic, and only very limited pro-choice. He couldn't even provide any decent arguments to counter me. Idiot.

Thanks, Bart, for advancing the discussion about pacifism as understood by some Christians.
I like the Bible passages you quote, and together, they are the beginning of a response to well-intentioned but misguided peace churches.

Filter out the trash talk and rudeness in this thread so far, and a common theme emerges:

"There are some people so bad, that we just have to get them, before they get us."

That sentiment may be more Christian than it first seems. Charles Colson, Christian leader and former assistant to President Nixon, has argued that fighting to liberate Iraqis is practicing Jesus' command to "love your neighbor as yourself". How so? In the long run, there will be greater security and protection for citizens in that country, and later, throughout the Middle East, by our acting now to thwart evildoers. Of course, by fighting over there, we protect our loved ones over here. That's a win for everyone, except madmen like Zarqawi. Like a rabid dog, he should be cornered and put down, before more innocents are bitten.

And what about "turning the other cheek"?

A thug slapped a preacher on the left cheek. Dutifully, the preacher turned the other cheek. The thug slapped that one, too. The burly pastor then rolled up his sleeves, and beat the man to a pulp. Bruised and dazed on the ground, he cried: "Hey, I thought you Christians were supposed to turn the other cheek!" The preacher replied: "I did, but the Bible doesn't specify after that."

"God, bless our troops. Protect them from harm. Comfort Coalition and Iraqi families who have lost loved ones in the fight for freedom. Bring a lasting peace to that troubled land, that we all one day soon may beat our swords into plowshares. We pray in the name of Christ our Lord, AMEN."

Well, Justin Eagle hates all of us "more than words can ever explain". Goes to show all lefties aren't peace and love types.

I've got these Birkenstock leftists with a perennial "War is not the Answer" sign out front next door to one of my properties. They are peace and love/ environmentalist boors who trespassed several feet onto my property and murdered three innocent trees I had planted to hide their blistered garage which they, lucky me, finally got around to painting after two centuries. Where is their "We're sorry (specimens)" sign and abject apology for crossing over my borders and causing wanton destruction? I so wish they had volunteered as human shields in Iraq or in Tora Bora when they had the chance.

I've been wanting to post a "Candlelight Vigils are the Answer" sign, but they might think it profound. Or, even a "Pretend You Don't Notice Opression, Torture and Mass Murder and We Can All Get Along" sign, but I think they would take that as a rightwinger's endorsement of Ashcroft's gulags. These peoples' minds just don't work normally. I try to talk carefully and slowly when an encounter with them is unavoidable.

Wouldn't these pics that Tim posted be good to send to Clark County voters?

"The Church of the Brethren come by their position from a long history of refusing to fight in war."

Fine. They can refuse to fight, but the only reason that they are capable of being in such a luxurious position is because others have defended their right to take such a stance.

If these brethren really desire for peace, then I would have thought they would have proved their worth as non-violent individuals by actually setting an example for others of similar ilk to follow. As examples, why don't they go and eliminate landmines in North Africa that have been moving with the shifting sands for sixty-odd years and are still killing people? Or maybe establish medical facilities in poorer areas of Somalia....something, anything, that makes them stand out as being moral and upright people? They would get far more respect from me if they extracted the digit and did something of worth, not hold up shitty little signs.

Actually, thinking about it, if they had performed any deed worthy of their beliefs, they wouldn't need the signs. People everywhere would already know who they are and what they represent. When I see the pictures of them all I can think of, is them thinking "the meek shall inherit the earth."

Is this the face of compassionate conservatism? These people are expressing real feelings for the people of Iraq. Since we've killed over 13,000 innocent Iraqis, I was thinking your next project could be pictures of dead Iraqis with clever captions, something like "Why did the Iraqi cross the road...because he didn't know how to cross himelf." After that, you could follow it up with "Those wacky amputees at Walter Reed Hospital." So much time, so much compassion to share.

Note carefully in the account that Jesus says "If someone strikes you on the /right/ cheek ..." Since in that era one struck only with the right hand, it would have to be a back-hand blow. That is how /slaves/ were struck.

Christ then says "offer him your left cheek." In other words make him strike you as an /equal/. If he refuses he is seen by all as a coward. If he strikes you as an equal you have every right to strike back.

I'm sure you think that, and I'm sure they think that. In fact, I think that too. So let's all agree that these people are expressing how they really feel.

The rest of us will keep cheering with real feelings for the future of Iraq, for the freedom and dignity of the Iraqi people, and for reform in the Middle East. We will cheer for victory over the terrorists and the tyrants.

And if we look at you with scorn and disgust, please understand that we know damn well that you're sincere in your convienent feelings of moral outrage at those poor Iraqis who should be dying in the grim silence of foreign oppression so that you can feel morally pure.

You're all big hypocritical wimps. These people have the balls to stand up. If you agree with the Bushies so much, why don't you go to Baghdad yourself!!! Or go and tell what you think to the French themselves!! Instead of hiding behind a stupid BLOG.

Sotelli said: "We know damn well that you're sincere in your convienent feelings of moral outrage at those poor Iraqis who should be dying in the grim silence of foreign oppression so that you can feel morally pure."

Yes, convenient indeed. Almost as convenient as saying the war in Iraq is about terrorists and for the future of Iraq. And as convenient as forgetting that we've provided "freedom and dignity" for over 13,000 Iraqis who are now in their graves. Honestly, I don't feel morally superior, since I don't even know you. But intellectually superior I will claim. See, your position doesn't take thinking, just inoculation (you learned that from Rush Limbaugh) and bombast (you learned that from Bill O'Reilly). Hope that's all you learned from those two, because otherwise I'd have to feel morally superior, too.

And take a picture of themselves standing in their front yards or their local park with a big cardboard sign. Wow! What conviction! What bravery! These people are putting it all on the line!

I was wondering if any of those people realize that, just two years ago, any Iraqi who dared to "apologize" for the Hussein regime would have found himself in a lengthy torture session and subsequent death. I'm pretty sure DRJK doesn't realize it.

Hmm, I just took a quick trip to Frank's blog (yes, I just seek out my punishment sometimes)...he has blogrolled himself as the first entry, lol. Must be because of his intellectual superiority, or something.

If the Church of the Brethern don't want to fight in a war, that's perfectly OK.

There are even precedents to this. Kelly pointed out a way. "Conscientious Objectors" can serve in the military without carrying a weapon. Medics, truck drivers, mechanics, whatever. They can suppport the war effort without killing, which is what these folks are against. Or they could do other things here in the States to support the war effort, or even the victims of the war.

My problem with this weenie "I'm sorry!" approach, they are encouraging the terrorists to continue with their battle by telegraphing a loss of will. These leftoids are being divise to no good purpose, other than pleasing their own vanity.

Odd. I do not listen to Rush, and I do not watch O'Rielly. Hope that your wild miss doesn't shatter the way you perceive your intellect, Frank.

By the way, Mr. Body Count: Do you know how many Iraqis died under a yearly basis under Saddam's rule? Did you count them then? Did you or these give a rat's ass about them then?

I'm guessing not. But in case the answer was yes, what were you trying to do about it then? Were you sending pictures of yourself to Saddam with poorly written signs that read "Please stop doing bad things, thanks."

Throughout the past few years I've met a good number of people who've either themselves escaped from communist countries, or left since communism fell (Chile, Armenia, Poland, Vietnam of course), or have family members who have. I have yet to meet one who doesn't appreciate living in this country or who doesn't support the war (though I'm sure that many exist - I'm only recounting my own experience). Why is it that most who oppose the war have never had to live in truly oppressive conditions, or have had little to no experience with those who have?

I found you via Citizen Frank blog and I want to sincerely thank you not only for my hearty hearty laugh and the tears running down my cheeks but also thank you for helping Frank have a side-splitting laugh...

Man, I got distracted and forgot to finish "and you or these" . . . these wrinkly useless pacifists? These spoiled ticks on the teat of free society? Argh! So many good ways to rip into these useless sign holders, I canna decide.

BTW, since I assume many of our recently arrived nutballs came via the Instalanche...I wonder how many angry Lefties' lives are made just a little bit worse every single day by the fact that Glenn Reynolds doesn't have a comment section for them to dispense their rage. :) Keep it up, boys. Might want to move to a country with socialized health care before the inevitable coronary hits you on November 2nd, though...

Yes. I have always supported the removal of Saddam and freedom for the people of Iraq.

Does your "compassion" now extend to Darfur, as well?

Wasn't it the Guardian or some other lefty rag that was proclaiming that the genocide in Darfur was being exaggerated by the Bush Administration?

But yes. I want to see the killing in Darfur stopped, and I certainly don't trust the UN to do a damn thing about it. It won't be solved by precious old people tut-tutting from their lawns and scrawling on paper with crayons, that's for sure. No matter HOW sincere they are in their feelings.

At any rate, you probably don't read Instapundit. Glenn's one of those awful conservative hawks, conservative in the mere sense that he supports the war and isn't very conservative on other issues, which means that logically he must listen to Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly. He highlights what is going on in Darfur a lot.

Oh boy, Frank posted about this on his own blog now. Excerpt: "Of course, the compassionate conservatives have taken this good work and made a website to poke fun at these people." Earth to Frank: Nobody "made this website" specifically to make fun of your birkenstock brethren in the Forusa.org pictures...Tim actually covers plenty of other subjects also, and has done so for quite a while. Hope that doesn't shatter your and the peace movement's inflated sense of self-importance!

Of course it was the Guardian that proclaimed there's no problem in Darfur, Sortelli. Otherwise they'd have to write about that and divert precious time from Operation Clark County. Can't have that, now can we.

Great job Tim. I'd like to think they'd look back on these pictures someday and be very embarrased, but that's probably too optimistic.

BTW, what's with the poorly colored symbol Dennis and his mom are holding up? Just Say No to tadpoles and earthworms? Or maybe sperm and the Loch Ness Monster. Bush's war in Iraq is a distraction from the worldwide menace of prehistoric lake beasts!

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

The misplaced compassion part you might have been mistaking the current prosecution of this WoT for has more to do with the struggle/War to prevent Islam's various fascist fishies from being materially able to say...Nuke Paris...Over say, banning headscarfs or some other equally perplexing excuse for murder in their well documented pursuit of global dominance.

This War is an ambitiously pragmatic Ameri-can-do led coalition's compassionate endeavor - insofar as its stated aim is to preempt/prevent French-bred reactor style consequences from raining down upon collective enabling heads across the ululating 'ummah' if'n some 'shaheed operation' actually meets with The Arab street's current formulation of what success is supposed to be about...And rather than carpet boming 'evil doers' after some million victim fact is manifestly realized, the coalition of the willing (Brave) is taking some casualties in their compassionate effort to not break too many eggs needlessly. Extra care for the brown eggs of course - unlike during the last shadow era of leftist 'thought' ascendant (socialism V2.0).

Call me an SU F'n V drivin' selfish cowboy, but I don't think I'm marginal of mind in choosing smart bombs over Baghdad every time over the sort of suicidally wrongheaded, smug, innaction laced promulgation of the multilateral status-quo knee-jerk Anti-Americanist stale soviet era propaganda bullshiite arising from the big three chief apologists/Socialist profiteer$. The dregs marxist swill who are literally banking on the islamist sea's cultural sense of mercy for the very detested black gold they hope to pump into their flaccid command economies.

Lileks once wrote about one of the 'chief' glorious socialist kleptocracies thusly:

"France is like someone who's been given a glimpse of the future, sees himself committing suicide, and resolves to spend his remaining days making it look like murder."

Substitute 'The Anti-Western culture appeasenik left', for 'France', and it still rings true.

Rick said: I quite like France. People there know how to have civil discourse.

This is an incredible display of ignorance. Ever since the French revolution, the French have regularly fought one another. The reason Paris has such grand boulevards, was to prevent the peasants from blocking the narrow streets and fighting the French army. In addition to the terror of the French Revolution, Google, the 1848 revolution, the commune, the Dreyfuss affair, the French army revolt of WWI, the Vichy, the Algerian question (pied noir, in the 1950s and early 60s) and France 1968. You will not find “civil discourse” in these descriptions.

Thank you Liz for the quote by Mill. As relevant today as it was when he said it over 200 years ago. Some people just don't understand that there are some things worth fighting for and even dying for --things like freedom, security, and love of country. My dad was a WWII vet who understood that completely, and so do I.

Please leave those poor liberal, post-Vietnam cry
babies alone. Maybe they will die off into nothingness as they are soooooooo irrevelant. Talk about mind rot. Alas, post-McArthyism once again resurrected to crush communist-backed Muslim extreme infidels who hate modern, pro-abort West.Hey, lets get our own moral act together as Pres Bush is advocating with the help of big corporate money and crush the infidel in his own backyard. A big viscious party exploding like a suicide bomb except we dont know that after ITS DONE.
Here is the game plan from OUR Lady of Fatima: Lets all you evil-haters convert to TRADITIONAL ROMAN CATHOLICs(OOPS,did I say that?,)by getting enrolled in the Brown Scapular; go to Our Lord's representative, the Supreme Pontiff, as Pres Bush TRIED to do; ask for his blessing on a new Crusade; shackle up EVIL"S companions(i.e. the Freemasons, Jews, Communists, Socialists, etc.) and kick Muslim butt. WOW! Now thats no neoconservative-neoLiberal position which is behind the agenda in Iraq; GET RID OF SYRIAN?CHALDEAN CATHOLICS?CHRISTIANS in Iraq. Any comment would be appreciated. Besides those people in the photos are misquided and misdirected. So sad,

Camille, fortunately for you, the folks you have met who come from formerly Communist countries were probably not academics. I know a few of these, and almost all of them are against the war in Iraq and the War on Terrorism. Also, they are very unhappy that they are not at the top of the pecking order here by dint of their advanced degrees.

They are among the most class-conscious people I have ever even heard of. They bitch, whine, moan, and complain constantly about how much Americans waste, how expensive everything is, how fat we are, how we drive everywhere, how they are underappreciated for their marvelous insights and explaining to us dimwitted Americans just how wrong we are about everything.

About the only thing they don't talk about is going back to where they came from. When I bring this up they get all defensive and start sounding like the trolls here. They like the money they make, and their big houses, and the easy professorial life, what they don't like is people who don't like having their lives run by govt appointed "betters" like these academic clowns from the former Soviet bloc.

Honestly, if I get told once more about how much better Marxism is than what we have here someone is going to get hurt. It. Collapsed. People. Get. Used. to. It.

My sincerest wish is that, if there is ever another successful terrorist attack on these shores, it occurs at a "peace" protest where every one of these apologists for torture and rape rooms congregate to paint signs about Osama's "legitimate grievances."

Then they can all hold up tiny signs that reads "EEP!" like Wile E. Coyote.

Their hatred of this country and of humanity in general is perhaps more sickening than that of the terrorists themselves, for they have it so damn good here, and want to deny their cushy lifestyles to the victims of fascism.

"This war isn't just wrong and horrible, it's one of the biggest mistakes in modern history, an act officially committed by the worst president this country has ever had. It's assured decades of hatred, terrorism, torture and massive amounts of general inhumanity."

****************************

You've got it backwards. This war is a reaction to decades of hatred, terrorism, torture, and massive amounts of general inhumanity perpetrated by the incredibly fcuked up infidel hating culture of the Arab Muslim world.

On 9/10/01, I was just some ordinary schmuck who didn't know jack-shiat about Islam. Following 9/11, I did a lot of research in an effort to find out just "why they hate us." Turns out, the short answer is that Islamofascists are xenophobic assholes whose ideas of morality and justice have virtually nothing in common yours and mine.

Future jihadis are being created every day in the madrassa of Pakistan and Afghanistan, by State run Wahabbi Saudi funded schools in the Magic Kingdom and abroad, by State controlled media in places like Egypt and Syria, etc. etc. etc.

The face of the Middle East needs to be changed, for the preservation of Western Civiliztion, and Iraq seems like a good place to start. Iran seems ripe for a change too; I've got my fingers crossed.

"It is still a fact that Islamofacism is an invention to treat all muslims alike (i.e., racism)."

Well, after all, many fundamentalist Muslims divide the world into two camps: the dar al-Islam (house of Islam), or all those who are Muslims, and the dar al-harb (house of war) or dar al-kufr (house of unbelivers), i. e., all of those who aren't. As you can imagine by the terms used, they don't have a very complimentary view of the latter; so they can hardly complain if they receive reductionist treatment themselves.
Also, Rick, when you see every American Muslim rounded up and thrown into concentration camps; when bands of neo-cons go around defacing and burning every mosque in sight; when the US starts attacking Indonesia, Malaysia, Bosnia, northern Nigeria, and every other Muslim area that isn't both Arab AND tyrannical; then you can start complaining about us being racist against Muslims. Until then, think before you speak, OK?

One thing I've noticed, virulent lefties bust honking veins in the head whenever some lesser mortal dares to poke fun at them.

"Hate to break it to you, but the road to hell is paved with ignorance and dogmatism."

Black blok Pot, meet anarchist Kettle...Koolaid anyone?

I can almost hear it...Peace on the multilateralist couch.

"Mr. Bin Laden would you kindly consider trading that dirty strap-on [bomb] and your plans for that globe-spanning Islamic caliphate for this nice whole grain vegetarian falafel-kabob from the UN oil for food commissary?"

Well, judging from Justin's email address, he's likely 18 years old, and thus a prime example of the havoc that Leftist teachers can wreak with young impressionable minds. (I'm assuming Justin has one. A mind, that is. It's pretty much a given that he has a leftist teacher; probably more than one.) Fortunately for you, Justin, unlike those fogies in the pictures above who you may admire at this point in your life, you still have enough time left to inform yourself of what the world is really like and perhaps come to the conclusion that those dreaded right-wingers are actually right about a few things. (Even that "chimp" in the White House.)

Let is invoke ST.Michael the Archangel to crush God's foes; Freemasons, Jews, Liberals, Anarchists, Satanists, Jews, Infidels(Muslims, Atheists, Communists, Liberals, Socialists, Feenyites, Protestants, Mormons, (maybe perhaps all Schismatics), Jehovah Witnessses and long live neo Fascists such as the Spanish Carlists, Traditionalists etc.who pray: St.Michael the Archangel, Defend in this day of Battle, Be our safeguard agaisnt the wickedness and snares of the Devil. Do thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host, by the Power of God, cast into Hell Satan and all his spirits who wander throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.
Then, ask for God's blessing and general conversion to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church; go to President Bush; Ask him what exactly transpired between him and His Holiness and SAY Convert, Pres. Bush and then ask for a crusade from the Pope and bring this powerful, great army agaisnt the Infidels. Lets get our act together. Remember, nothing is impossible with God and Our Lady of Fatima said to Sr. Lucy, the seer, that Russia will spread its errors throughout the world (i.e. abortion, contraception, euthanasia, divorce, separation of Church and State, etc.) various nations will be annihilated, Holy Father will suffer much but in the end her Immaculate Heart will triumph and Russia will be converted to the TRUE CHURCH, Holy Roman Cathoilc church.
You so called intellectuals, dont you know that Ho Chi Minh, Lenin, Hitler, Mugabe were trained by Jesuits the right arm of the Pope? Well start to understand that worldwide Atheistic Materialism and Communism wants to destroy God's existence under his duly appointed apostolic sucessors, the Popes and the heirarchical church, the Roman Catholic Church.
Also, get rid of the 200 year Monroe Doctrine that Bush and Kerry certainly know and studied which is a Doctrine to destroy God's One,True Church, the Roman Catholic Church and its influence in the world both secular and spiritual.
Tell that to this country's disgraceful silence from influential clerics such as Cardinal Bernard Law and most bishops and archbishops who dont want to assert the True religion's gentle authority in State matters.
Where is this going? To hell both politically and spiritually. Remember, Fatalists, your time will come that the fires of hell awaits you due to your inaction. Lets be militant and convert whole heartily to crush the serpent(s)in society by prayer ( To start, use the prayer above) and action ( Voice and learning the one True Faith).
The eternal fires of Hell waits all those who dont convert to the one True Religion, the Roman Cathoilc church. By the way if you need help please refer to the www.sspx.com website. That would be the avenue to take if you are of the elect. God bless and have yourself a safe passage to heaven.

Uh...Thanks......uh.... God bless you PW. By the way are we on the same wavelength here? because I think that you are thinking that this is a public forum for Right wingers. Is that true or am I wrong to think that...... gosh it is true that wackiness reigns supreme in the minds of men who puffed with pride( intellectual) or non-dogmatism can personally relativized what wackiness is or is not. This is getting serious ( refer back to previous stance in last Blog) I suggest you pray...or do you?... and go see that website for the truth. It will blow you away. If not then go have fun what ever your doing agaisnt those bastard leftist(guerrillas?) in this country. By the way PW I'm not from this country. I am working here but I am not an American or a formalist. Do you understand that this position of right vs left needs to be attenuated with massive conversion to the ONE TRUE CHURCH, JESUS CHRIST founded which is the Catholic Church. Dont be fooled by the leftist as you abvious trying to suggest but any way thanks for your response. Anything else you neeeeed to know about right wing positions, followers, etc or are you too....
what can I say, dumbfounded as to what to do?

If this idiots realized how much the muslim jihaadeests despise peaceful people they would act otherwise. Do they really think the Islamic Warriors are going to feel good about them because they ask forgiveness? Hahahaha they are completely idiotic. The muslim fighters have only two plans for coward peace freaks: kill them or enslave them. Dimmihs, specially old dimmihs, (dimmihs are "protected slaves") are not that interesting to Islamic Fighters, so most of the morons in the pics will go the first way if the jihaad could ever lay hands on them. Oh how much the Muslim Warriors despise cowards! The kind of people portrated here makes them feel disgusted for such cowardice. Muslims respect brave people and utterly despice cowards who give in.

Jesus called. He wants you to shut the fuck up. He knows that deep inside you think you are funny or something, and I note with the eye of a satire writer that you used the word "Jews" twice in your big deranged rant in the first post. Truely deranged wackos are a little more careful in the nutbaggery, you're merely trying to screw with heads. But really, satire in the hands of a fool is no laughing matter. And although Jesus loves you (presumably) in spite of you being a fool, I, the humble prophet, think you are a total asshole. But the Son of God and I are in total agreement regarding the issue of "You, shut the fuck upping".

I trust that you will take this advice, which comes from the Lord, to heart.

Sortelli, if there's one thing that this thread has taught me, its that the Left are the biggest bunch of thin-skinned, humourless wankers I have ever seen.

Sure, you can call the right evil, oppressive, cruel warmongers and impune that they like attacking nations for crude oil, but, by golly, don't you make fun of a bunch of naive pacifists who don't realise their actions are making the situation worse!

1) The occupation of Iraq has been inept at best and a colossal failure at worst.

I always love how these lists of "facts" tend to start off with an assertion instead of a fact. Bravo, Mr. Smart Man! It may make you feel better to champion drooling idiots, but that doesn't change the fact that you don't know a fact from something some talking head told you to believe.

2) The reasons for invading Iraq don't lie solely with democratization of the region, fighting terror, or weapons proliferation.

Aaaaaaand? If I were to read to much into this comment, I'd think you were talking about ooooooooooooooooooooil. But that would be assuming too much. I accept this second little fact of yours as true, and also irrelevant, since the reasons for invading Iraq INCLUDE "democratization of the region, fighting terror, [and] weapons proliferation." These happen to be reasons why I supported the war. Pointing out that there are other factors, even including getting valuable resources out of the hands of tyrants, is like you informing me that the sun will rise tomorrow. Thanks for the hefty insight, Mr. Smart Smarty Man!

I'd be especially pissed if it happened to my house, and if it happened accidentally as the result of a military action meant to overthrow a man who had killed members of my family, made friends disappear, and generally ruled my life in tyranny. I would not like it so much at all.

In that position, I would also like to piss in the coffee of anyone who thinks that I should continue living under that kind of oppression lest any fight to remove my dictator have unwanted but inevitable consequences.

So while your third fact is true (two for three, you did pretty well for a fact lister there, Mr. Smart Smarty Genius Man), it does not lead me to any conclusion that you would appear to like. How do you take your coffee?

From looking at these pics, I think some senior citizens have been overdoing the medicinal marijuana...

Speaking of innocent Iraqi civilian deaths. I think it's horrible but these things happen. Around 40,000 French civilians died during D-day yet you don't see anyone arguing that liberating Europe from Hitler wasnt a bad idea...although now that I think about it, leaving France in the hands of Hitler isn't such a bad idea given recent events.

That sums up their problem in a nutshell,
The ravages of islam on Judeo christian communities for the last 1400 years should be made compulsory reading in all schools instead of being shoved under the carpet for political reasons.
See Batyeors Islam and dhimitued for starters!

I'm not sure why Justin's post was wiped when it his ramblings have been some of the most interesting and provocative here. I laughed at the first one. Those young angry liberals really something.

But sheesh, it looks like a number of people were directly responding to a Justin post that disappeared. What did he do that was so bad? Can I read it somewhere? I like to hear a few sides, right or wrong. Trolls have their place.

Okay. Sorry. Lets get back to laughing at those peaceniks. I didn't mean to cause a problem here.

Nah Quentin, I wasn't trying to make fun of Justin because of his age...that post was actually one of the few serious things I've posted in this thread. :P I don't really feel agitated by guys like him. Unlike people like Frank (who's apparently in his 40s going by one post on his blog) who have lost all excuses for spouting the nonsense they do, kids who are barely out of high school at least deserve the benefit of the doubt that their political attitudes might have been fucked up by their teachers or their parents.

But I do hope Justin feels sufficiently embarrassed over his vitriolic outbursts when he comes to think back to them in a few years.

While the moonbats are practicing their "Sorry" techniques, as a United States citizen I would like to take this opportunity to THANK Tim Blair, and all the other wonderful Aussies who have posted here. Thank you Australia for being allies in this. I'm sure there are moonbat Australians just as there are moonbat Americans, but the truth is, as a country, you were there for us, you are helping us, and you are indeed helping the world.

And thanks to the all those other nations who also have participated and are participating in the coalition of the willing. Aussie friends, allies, brothers, sisters, Thank You!

Words are not enough to express my gratitude and I'm sure other Americans of the anti-idiotarian variety join with me in thanking you.

And the Iraquis who have a chance for a better life without Saddam will surely thank you too.

Tim Blair resonates well with most of you panty-waists that posted to this blog and made fun of people who They assume control in front of their computer screens while they comment on a war from far away, where their families and friends are safe. People like Quentin George and the rest.

Really, you're mostly a perfect grouping of cowardly people who make fun of others who simply have another opinion.

If you're all so positive about the Iraqi thing, please volunteer yourselves and your children for this war. Gee, is that too much for you to consider?

How about you guys go off to some island and duke it out among yourselves with real guns (make sure to take your NRA - Neanderthal Rifle Assn.) cards with you as passports.

Shame on America for allowing ACLU to run this country, for allowing abortion on demand, divorce, and euthanasia. Shame on America for killing innocent children and women. Shame on America for this unjust, illegal war which PLEASE dont tell its for revenge of 9/11 as hundreds of foreign nationals died in the attack too. America is very sick but you know what? Not as sick as Europe which has lost the faith. Nevertheless shame on America for allowing harboring of the American members to fight agaisnt RIGHT WING Franco in 1936-1939 for the Communist International Brigade. Listen, Kerry will bring on more shame to America creating chaos and anarchy you have never seen. You taxes will go up,socialism will take hold on the druggies of America,He will kiss and dine with the fellow Socialist from Europe. Yikes. Poor AMerica. Vote for Mike Peroutka. Good luck, He is better than the one party system here, Never mind this false democrarcy for the people. When the people are bad so democracy will degrade to a dictatorship. Remember, there is no God in the schools or government here, just like in Russia and China.
VOTE FOR MIKE PEROUTKA

In case any of you cowardly panty-waists (most posting to this thread like want to read something from the last great Republican president (I'm a conservative Republican, btw), read this.

https://ideotrope.org/index.pl?node_id=23495

After you read it, go home and change your the intellectual diapers you're wearing - they've been on too long and are starting to smell a bit - shall we say - worn.

Go get a clue about something other than the testosterone-driven, mini-pre-frontal-cortex balderdash that substitutes for your so-called "thinking" nowadays.

Kerry may not be perfect, but he's getting this conservative Republican's vote because Bush is setting dumbf**** like you up for a chariot ride to hell. I don't want to be part of that. How anyone could swallow the bull**** that Bush has been shoveling for the last four years is beyond me.

Go read *any* of the classical manuals on terror. They all say that one of the perfect wins for terrorism (i.e. the terrorist) is to divide your enemy by provoking fear and uncertainty - it's a universal theme. So, Bush (and most of you along with him) have swallowed Usama's bait hook, line, and sinker. Usama has landed you asses on the boat, fellows. Think about that the next time you wanna jack up the testosterone. You're pathetic, challenged drones who follow the party line...a bunch of lemmings that I'm ashamed to call fellow Republicans. Please re-register yourselves as something else, and get a life.

Reasons that the occupation of Iraq has been inept at best and a failure at worst:

Inadequate Troop Levels To Guarantee Security - 135,000 or so US troops in theater, compared to almost 500,000 during the Gulf War I.

Lack Of Security During The Fall - Rampant looting and arson destroyed almost as much infrastructure in Baghdad as bombs did after the fall. Almost every ministry in the Iraqi capital was ransacked and plundered because they weren't guarded or secured by coalition forces -- except for the oil ministry (uh oh, oooooooooooooooooil, as you guys like to say, but this is a fact -- what can I say).

Disbanding Of The Iraqi Army - What surer way to grow an insurgency against you than to unemploy hundreds of thousands of people military men?

Failure To Penetrate The Insurgency - US commanders acknowledge they have staggeringly little insight into who is behind the insurgency (old Baathists, foreign terrorists, disgruntled ordinary Iraqis), and how many there are.

Ceding Control Of Cities To Insurgents - I'm glad to hear we're getting in there in Fallujah and Samarra, but why did we let those situations get out of control in the first place? Why did we retreat after our first foray into Fallujah, right after four of our guys were burned to a crisp?

No Weapons - Sorry, but a few cyanide and sarin gas canisters aren't going to justify one of the main pillars of going to war against Iraq. We thought they had mobile biological weapons labs. We thought they were using centrifuges to process uranium. They weren't. Bad intelligence? Yup. Lost credibility? Yup.

Other reasons for going to war in Iraq:

Oil - Of course this is one of the reasons. Why do you guys shout "oooooooooooooil" every time someone says it? Iraq has it, we're running out of it. Makes sense, right?

Boon For American Businesses - More work for our guys = more money for our guys. You don't think this was another big reason to go into Iraq? You don't think that an ordinary Iraqi watching our guys driving trucks for Bechtel, making money hand over fist, while they eat dirt in their own country isn't going to piss them off?

Look, we can go on and on, but I think you're missing my point, Sortelli. I never see any right wing sites bringing up this info. Is it because it's bullshit? I don't think so.

All they talk about is how great the schools are in Iraq, and how awesome it is that they're free. And it is awesome that they're free. But you know what? Freedom sucks when you've got warplanes bombing your house accidentally because the guys that liberated you can't get good intel on the guys that are fucking things up for the rest of the country. I just wish you guys would own up to the other side of the story. Instead, you laugh at the fucking idiots who represent the bizarre faction of the other side. It just seems ridiculous.

And for the record, I did say they were fucking idiots. I'm not championing them. I'm saying be fair, and own up to defending this war for everything it's wrought, be it good or bad.

Wouldn't you know the first comment after I posted mine is another piece of vitriol from a deranged leftist moron? He signs himself "Charlemagne." What a half-wit! The real Charlemagne of history was certainly no peacenik. The real Charlemagne's name (which that twit has usurped) means "Charles the Great." The phony "Charlemagne" who posted above is certainly not "great." Charles the Miniscule or Charles the Petty is more his style.

The only "history" that the rest of us here will be is the same kind of "history" that Winston Churchill was. Whereas the history of pseudo-Charlemagne and his rant is the history of Stalin.

Yes, that is where history will consign him and his ilk. I don't mind being part of history, like Churchill's that will allow our nations to leave a safer world for our children.

It would have been more ironic for him to have signed under the nom-de-plume Charles Martel, Charlemagne's grandfather.

Claim to fame:

Although he was Mayor of the Palace of the kingdom of the Franks, Martel (Martel means "the Hammer") is best remembered for winning the Battle of Tours (more correctly the Battle of Poitiers) in 732, which has been characterized as the salvation of Europe from the Arab menace. Martel's Frankish army defeated an Arab army fighting to spread Islam, which had swept through southern Asia and north Africa, before conquering most of the Iberian peninsula and much of southern France.

Quentin, you're no friend of his. You're supporting the fact that he's in harm's way. Why not join him if you're so charged up about the righteousness of the cause. Why aren't you enlisting? Don't bother answering. I know why, because you talk a big game and do nothing.

Next time your friend - assuming he's seeing real action - finds himself exchanging in a firefight with a bunch of AK47-enabled terrorists, I'm sure he will feel really swell about your support.

You guys are simply ignorant, and have swallowed Usama's bait. Think about that as your medical bills rise, your future social security pension shricks, and the dollars in your pocket lose value because you wanna play war.

Get a life!

ciao,
Charlemagne

PS (btw, many of those terrorist's AK47's were taken from the ammo dumps that our troops didn't have the manpower to secure because that f***head Rumfeld wanted to fight a so-called 'lean' war). Rumfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Bush, Rove - not a ONE of them ever faced an enemy bullet - you're all in good company.

You're screwed pal - and so are the poor souls that are losing their lives (and their families, and the Iraqi families who have lost loved ones)

Quentin, jeez that brings back memories.
I was a small boy; the very old WW1 TPIs in my tiny country town would sit each day on a street bench in the sun overlooking the water, in ties and suits, they had a twinkling sense of humour with we kids. We saw the respect they had from other adults and we knew they were special men.

Frankly, most of you idiots are a hoot. You don't have a clue, because you don't want to have a clue. You'd rather ride your ignorance right into oblivion - laughing all the way - than *do* something to prevent war. Sad man, sad.

I think Im going insane or is it the world around me is going insane? We have babie and young childrens bodies being dug up still holding their toys who were murdered by Saddam and these simplistic f-tards are holding up signs giving comfort to an enermy who would kill them and wishing sadam was still in power....I am going insane the world no longer makes sense. I have this urge to beat the living crap out of each and everyone one of these islamofacist loving spazwads. These pictures make me want to move to Alaska and become a hermit to avoid seeing these lead paint chip eating socialist do anything more idiotic than this. Someone please give them the coolaid before they spread their faulty genetics any further. Ok thanks for listening I had to release steam.

The uneducated idiot signing himself "Charlemagne" has surely never even read any of the chansons de geste about Charlemagne, much less any of the actual history. (Quentin George: good catch on the Charles Martel comeback! You beat me to it.)

Poor, poor, deluded, syphilitically insane "Charlemagne." I'd nominate you to be this year's poster child for being a mongoloid idiot, but that would be unfair and degrading to mongoloid idiots everywhere.

Quentin, you're no friend of his. You're supporting the fact that he's in harm's way. (...) Next time your friend - assuming he's seeing real action - finds himself exchanging in a firefight with a bunch of AK47-enabled terrorists, I'm sure he will feel really swell about your support.

Wow, good to know that you know who is really whose friend and who isn't. Take your sanctimonious bullshit somewhere else. Especially the misguided notion that Quentin's friend didn't know what he signed up for when he joined the military. Us folks here on the right side of the aisle are able to think for ourselves, including those who choose to sign up for military action, despite your assumption to the contrary about anyone who disagrees with you.

Not enough Troops – After the Normandy invasion the Nazis kept fighting for nine more months killing tens of thousand of Americans because not enough troops hit the beach on D-Day.

Not Enough Security during the Fall – During the Nazi collapse, American troops could not advance fast enough in great enough numbers to prevent widespread looting.

Disbanding the Nazi Army - What surer way to grow resentment and hunger than to unemploy millions of German military men and SS storm troopers?

Failure to Penetrate the Russian Zone - US commanders acknowledge they have staggeringly little insight into the treachery of the Soviets and their refusal to comply with Kerry-like multilateral agreements.

Ceding Control of East Germany to the Russians – See above.

No Nuclear Weapons – the much feared Nazi atom bomb never even reached the design phase.

Oil – The secret Nazi formula to turn coal into 2 cent per gallon gasoline for American SUVs is lost due to American failure to say “We are sorry.”

Boon for America Business – America could have won the war in six weeks, but America stretched out the war for years as a full employment scheme.

Who enabled Saddam, you silly dolt? It was Reagan, and Bush senior. Why? Because he was "the enemy of our enemy. Bottom line: stupid foreign policy. He killed Kurds and Shiites with *American* weapons - get it?

Why didn't they asassinate Saddam in the late 80's? Think about that? Now, because of the flawed gene pool of the war-mongering Republicans (I'm a Republican, btw - and I lean right)we've had in office, we're in this mess.

Rumsfeld himself visited Saddam after the Kurd gassings and fawned all over Saddam.

Go get a life, read some history and calm down. Next, go write a peace sign and put it on your lawn, you'll feel better...seriously!

God love ya Charlemagne. I can't believe Andrea is tolerant of any wisdom reaching this blog.

It's funny how people here think of war as a simple foreign policy choice instead of naming it for what it really is-- you know, ahh.. legalized mass murder accompanied by widespread looting, torture, rape, and throw in some random destruction of property and infrastructure, a few children blown up just for fun. After all, they might become terrorists some day, right?

Yeah, sometimes I am humourless wanker Quentin. Like when I think about ignorant jingoistic fucks who post to blogs like this cheering on war and death, when they would never have the balls to put themselves or their children into harms way in a place like Iraq. It's just not funny to think of how people have lost their moral compass and scream like little godless boys in favor of torture, racism and mindless patriotism. Rub your toy plastic soldiers against your crotch guys, unless you have a hot falafel nearby.

Please, all of you-- you warmongers-- you Christian fascists and talk radio losers... shove your flag up your ass until you puncture something. It's the least you can do for your country, and for those of us who care about you, in an enlightened way.

Excuse me, mentally challenged "Charlemaggot," but nowhere did I "quote Charlemagne" in any post above. I guess you must be forgiven for being illiterate as well.

However, I could have quoted Charlemagne in his original language if I so chose. I don't have to resort to a simpleminded "Ciao" to impress anyone.

Truly, if you knew how you are being laughed to scorn as the intellectually inferior parasite that you are. Keep it coming! Tell all your good friends at "Screw Them" Kos what a wonderful impression you made here.

As H.G. Wells called those of your ilk, you are "an idiot child screaming in a hospital."

perfectsense. this isn't WWII, so your sig doesn't match the bull**** you just posted.

btw, did you know that Roosevelt knew about the death camps in 1942? (this is now well documented from recently released archives) He was afriad of the Congressional anti-Semitic lobby and didn't want to hamper his war effort. One of the real disappointments in an otherwise great Presidency.

That said, conflating WWI with what's happening today is just plain stupid.

Notice that Saddam WAS contained, he had no WMD - this is in the "9/11" report - go read it.

Again, what I would like to see is all you gung-ho pro-war bloggers enlist for a tour in Iraq. That way we could stop the back door draft and fill it with people who really believe in the cause, and clean out our gene pool at the same time.

perfectsense says: "The French and Russians enabled / supplied Saddam with about 95% of his weapons."

Another misleading non-fact that completely misses the point about bankrupt Republican foreign policy (and some Democratic policy too, btw)

"Scowcroft contribution is no less rich, particularly considering the pivotal role he played as a partner in Kissinger Associates and as National Security Adviser to George Bush -- in the massive transfers of military technologies and foreign aid to Saddam Hussein during the 1980s. During the Reagan-Bush years, Iraq became Washington's second biggest trading partner in the Arab world. Billions of dollars in loan guarantees, subsidized grains, and weapons-related exports were showered upon Saddam, who was to be "our" thug in the CFR balance-of-power scheming in the Mideast, despite his long record as a Soviet client state and a sponsor of terrorists. Cluster bombs, munitions, highly sensitive nuclear weapons technology -- these and much more were made available to Saddam. And, as Peter Mantius notes in his 1995 book Shell Game, "No top advisers to Bush backed the Iraq strategy more doggedly than Scowcroft and [former Deputy Secretary of State Lawrence] Eagleburger."

from http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/1997/vo13no26/vo13no26_baghdad.htm

see the light, baby - and find a way to post something accurate for a change, it'll make you feel better

The folk in the pictures remind me of the Natural Law Party. This party fielded a few candidates in the federal election before last but seems to have disappeared this time around. The NLP believe in World Peace (tm). It happens this way, in Australia. If 2 million Australians all participate simultaneously in Yogic Flying and pray for World Peace (tm) (called "indomitable influence of harmony and positivity throughout the country by enlivening the Unified Field of National consciousness") at the same time, world peace just happens. It's that simple.

Yogic Flying achieves "maximum coherance of brain functioning" but is actually jumping up and down on a mattress and calling it levitating. Naturally, it's not surprising the NLP consisted of a bunch of superannuated hippies and a handful of La Trobe sociology students.

The NLP's defence policy is to "create an invincible armour of positivity for the nation by establishing a Prevention Wing of the military - a group of Yogic Flyers - whose daily drills will neutralise all negative tendencies coming from both inside and outside the country and radiate peace and harmony to the world."

I enlisted and served 12 months in Vietnam unlike Kerry who cut and run after four months leaving the fighting to lessor mortals he later betrayed.
Like you, the people in the photos have no concept of what is happening in the world and no sense of history.

(By the way WWI and WWII are not the same wars, but I doubt if you let facts impede your great mind.)

davo, your Italian is as poverty-stiken as your English - never mind your inability to even make one cogent point...i.e. you're an insult to all Italian heritage - you don't have any soul, bambino. You wouldn't last a day in Palermo or Naples.

Truly, if you knew how you are being laughed to scorn as the intellectually inferior parasite that you are.

Yup, I suspect that's pretty much the case by now. (I most certainly am laughing my ass off here.) He's just stringing one leftist talking point after another, all unsupported by reality. And when he gets refuted, he falls back onto repeated "Chickenhawk! Chickenhawk!" wailings. Perhaps Tom Tomorrow or Ted Rall can draw a new cartoon this week so as to supply "charlemagne" with new material.

perfectsense, that shows you're more of a moron than I originally took you for. Didi you see action, or were you out in the Gulf on a boat most of the time? Probably the latter.

After serving in one failed attempt to insert ourselves in a war that cost 55,000 American dead and four times that wounded - 100's of thousands of lives ruined or lost...not to mention the millions lost in N. Vietnam - after all that you support this war? Man, you're just plain hopeless!
And your sig is "perfectsense" - ha! anything but...!

Guess what? Vietnam is *still* Communist. Does that perhaps ring your bell, just a little. Why did we fight that war? Would you do it over again?
Based on what you just posted, it sounds like you would. Pathetic! A REAL slow learner, that one!

ignorant jingoistic fucks who post to blogs like this cheering on war and death, when they would never have the balls to put themselves or their children into harms way in a place like Iraq.

JJ Eagle... why the anger? What have you lost?
My daughter is 10, and nothing would make me more proud than her deciding in 8 years to protect me and you and the lives we enjoy. I hope she does enlist, I want western civilization to continue and to thrive.

Michael Moore can ask me to enlist my daughter. I can only encourage her, the decision will be hers.

If we throw up our hands and let it slide, Islamo-fascism will be the rule of the day. Atheists, Agnostics, Jews, Christians, will all be toast. Does your suspision of the U.S. exercise of power over-ride your will to survive?

In the 80s & 90s, the Iraq army had French and Russian aircraft, Russian tanks, Russian anti-aircraft systems and primarily French and South African artillery. The US gave them wheat. The only person I ever heard of being wounded by grain was John Kerry when he threw a grenade into a bin of rice.

I beginning the think the people holding the posters have a better grip on reality than you.

Evidently, Davo's Italian is not as "poverty-stiken" as your English is, "Charlemidget."

Haaaahaaa haaaaaaaar! "Poverty-stiken" Too funny. It seems "Charlemoron" is drunk or otherwise impaired. The poor thing probably intended to write "poverty-stricken" but alas! That is simply too much for his puerile empty lil' pea-pickin' head to accomplish.

PW, if you knew how much fun (actually ROFL) I'm having whilst parrying your hopelessly transparent (and weakly thought-out) jabs, you'd go take an aspirin or two. (Either that, or just give up and go to bed with your little hot water bottle)

How about the issue of your enlistment tomorrow, PW? How about putting your body where your mouth is? This is why you brough up the word "chickenhawk" - it's rolling around in your consciousness as a recognizable quality of your poorly developed psyche.

Now were talkin'. You know, I can just picture those patriotic Italian soldiers in the extreme heat and the god forsaken desert of Ethiopia as they follow their EL Duce to the grave for the grand vision of Greater Italy. OR Those determined, resolute and disciplined soldiers of Great Britain in the middle of the now Iraq desert being slaughteed by the swarming Wahbist army of the Greater Saudi Arabians. Where are they now? Asking U.S.A to send their troops to subdue a very near reminiscent foreign army of insurgents led by the infamous Zarqawi who enjoys killing the infidels employed by the dispersed Baathist regime leaders and their men. NOOOOO! Women don't fight for them. Just men. Can't the US recruit men to fight there or do we need a gender equality Army?
Oh, Gary, go to sleep will you or be a man.

The RAF sent a raid to hit the Gestapo HQ in Copenahgen, they sent 2 flights of Mosquitos, they were to scream in at low level, and high speed.

The lead plane crashed into a school, and his two wingmen mistook the smoke for hits on the Gestapo HQ, so they dropped their bombs. They killed 84 children, and a number of teachers. The second flight realised the mistake, and hit the Gestapo.

More Danish children were killed in that attack than in 4 years of German occupation, yet the Danes accepted the RAF's apology.

Ist Cav. Hmmmmm. Were they not the division that got slaughtered in the Kaseren Pass at Libya in WWII or am I wrong? No offense but I am a bit of a history buff who believes that history repeats itself.Lets hope it doesnt in Iraq for strategy my friends will win the day. Too bad the army didnt confiscate those Baathist, Iraqi army weaponary before the foreign mujahedeen showed up. I think General Patton would rolling over his grave seeing this God awful mess his once great army is in now. Politicians then like now-always dictating everything the army has to do. Too bad!

Thomas, you ask what the world would look like if we hadn't fought in Vietnam.

For starters there would have been no Pol Pot (millions savaged, a culture destroyed), the Laotians wouldn't have had their entire culture destroyed, Vietnam would have gone Communist with bloodshed, but a lot less bloodshed than we witnessed during the Vietnam War, thousands of American ex- soldiers wouldn't be walking homeless in American streets with PTSS, and so on. How's that for starters?

Go read some history and intuit what a more aggressive policy of containment would have meant in Vietnam instead of doing what we did there.

Sweet lil' Frankenfish, you're exactly right! Rummy, Bush, Wolfowitz (the slimy coward) and the rest wanted to hand Americans an easy win. They were already looking toward 2004 when this war started. They will go down in history as pathetic non-leaders who caused more death than necessary - no matter if one looks at it from the perspective of the necessity of the Iraqi War, or its non-necessity. Either way, they screwed it up!

What have I lost? Not much, yet. I'm not angry about what I've lost. I'm REAL angry about what the families of dead American soldiers have lost. I'm angry about what the families of American contractors have lost. But I'm angry and ashamed about the loved ones who Iraqi families have lost, about lives destroyed with my tax dollars.

Why the anger? Jesus Christ man? Why not anger?

Is anybody here, in there right mind (for the few who can answer this question affirmatively and honestly), really really thing that any terrorist would attack the US or Israel, or anywhere else, if they were not horribly oppressed and probably hopeless as well, because of the oppression of the US or Israel, or western economic interest?

Sure, it's easy to call them islamofacists and color them as horrible criminals, but really, these people are reacting to what is being done to them. We reduce them and expect them to eat it up.

Is that so hard for all of you right wing suckups to figure out. My god.

LOL! "Charlesmindless" you are such a humorous card! "Hey Frank, now you're looking for mispellings? :))
Man, you must be desperate for a win!"

No, I'm not looking for misspellings. (See? You couldn't even spell "misspelling!") You're giving them to me. I don't even have to bother to look. And I wouldn't have pointed it out at all to further humiliate you when you are doing such a superb job of that yourself, except for the fact that you were criticizing someone else's (i.e. Davo's) language skills. Clean yours up first. But that's too much to ask, isn't it? Surely, you don't want to remove that log out of your own eye before you point out the dust speck in someone else's eye, do you?

Furthermore, it seems that you have been doing an awful lot of questioning other posters' "manhood" and "testosterone." Since you keep bringing the subject up, one can't help but conclude some latent longings on your part. . .

C'mon, I'm waiting for substance. Where is it? You have one more chance, or I ignore your IQ-75 posts from now on. Let's see if you really KNOW anything. ;) other than ad hominum - anyone can do that. :)

Ah, Frank - so you're against homosexuality too? Perhaps you should have a chat with Dick Cheney's daughter and some of her friends. Maybe write her a letter and tell her what you think. Maybe try to 'convert' her? Maybe go to a Log Cabin Republican's convention and get your ass whooped? LOL!

Thanks for the spelling corrections, btw - you really should go take that enlistment exam. You'd shine, and be shipped out to Baghdada in no time. Just think, then you could out your body where you cowardly little blog remarks are. Until then, learn how to be a man.

btw, where are all the issues you and your hopeless chickenhawk friends are supposed to know so much about? So this is Bush country? I'm VERY unimpressed, but having the time of my life!

Much like the electron, by trying to observe the movements and actions of Charlemagne, I am unable to determine his(?) location precisely.

He asks for an argument when all I wish to do is observe him in his natural environment. We must study him before we judge him.

Look, Charlemagne, the point is any argument I offer will be joined as part of my five step process. It is my opinion you are purposefully obtuse. You will not stand for solid argument. Everyone who reads this or any other comment thread knows the game you play. I've summed it in five easy steps.

I'll continue to play by your rules. Here goes:You've made no argument. You still want Saddam in power killing women and children. You're a bad person. Fascism has killed over 100M people in the last 100 years. I'm right. I'm morally superior. How can you not see this. If you can't see this you're a booby head.

"ad hominum" -- I presume the addlepated ninny means "ad hominem," but I wouldn't expect him to write Latin clearly when he obviously is struggling with English. Tell us, can you walk and chew gum at the same time, "Charlemisbegotten"?

Much like the electron, by trying to observe the movements and actions of Charlemagne, I am unable to determine his(?) location precisely.

He asks for an argument when all I wish to do is observe him in his natural environment. We must study him before we judge him.

Look, Charlemagne, the point is any argument I offer will be joined as part of my five step process. It is my opinion you are purposefully obtuse. You will not stand for solid argument. Everyone who reads this or any other comment thread knows the game you play. I've summed it in five easy steps.

I'll continue to play by your rules. Here goes:You've made no argument. You still want Saddam in power killing women and children. You're a bad person. Fascism has killed over 100M people in the last 100 years. I'm right. I'm morally superior. How can you not see this. If you can't see this you're a booby head.

> > because of the oppression of the US or
> > Israel, or western economic interest

> Notice how this post accomplishes both Steps
> #3 and #5 simultaneously. It's a near perfect
> defense mechanism. Much like a scientist we
> should study these... well to name them might
> be harsh.

Hmm. I guess you're saying that I'm making declarative statements with no evidence. Right?

So, you DON'T thing that Israel oppresses the Palestinians, or that the American forces oppress the Iraqis? In any way? You really don't think so?

I could do the work, but it's just so goddamn obvious in EVERY way, that it just tires me out thinking about it. The fact that I have to prove it here, when all of you neo-con dolts have access to the internets.

Sometimes ignorance is such a bright light that you go blind when it's so strong and omnipresent... and sad.

Thomas, a real gentleman. OK, The Domino Theory has pretty much been disproved. We lost in Vietnam, but Southeast Asi did not go Communist; in fact, quite the contrary.

Next, I suggest you talk with as many Russian expats as I have. Ask them if they think it was Reagan and America that brought down the Soviet machine. What you'll hear is that they did it to themselves, that the USSR was shakey all through the 70's, and it would have fallen no matter what. There were too many internal inconsistencies, and too much corruption (which continues unabated in Russia) for the government to sustain itself.

Again, go read Eisenhower's Cross of Iron speech. It's eisenhower (and Nixon) who concocted the Domino Theory in the first place. He later admitted that he was wrong and warned America in a stirring, passionate way that the military-industrial complex was a growing, insidious, internal problem that was slowly insinuating itself into the American way of life (he was dead-on right) - he said we needed to work with other nations to promote peace. Bush is the antithesis of Eisenhower's pleadings.

And here you have people like Tim Blair making fun of people who put a peace sign intheir yard. Man, Blair is really an igmorant fellow (remember, ignorance is not necessarily a permanent condition). I hope he learns something *real* someday, instead of catering to the mindless morons (not you) that commented positively on his stupid posting today.

For the record, "Charlemudslinger," I have nothing against homosexuality. I do have a problem with poseurs such as yourself implying that everyone else is homosexual for not agreeing with you. Clearly, from anyone reading the comments, since you have brought the subject up through innuendo again and again in a pejorative fashion to libel others, it is clear who the person is that has a problem with it.

This is an attempt to refute that JJEagle is following my suggested pattern, but he responds by following the pattern. Maybe Heisenberg was wrong about the LLL's? Perhaps observation only enrages them. Quick, everyone, avert your eyes and the LLL's will revert to their natural state.

Birkel, you're not arguing, you're just listening to yourself - which is a pretty hopeless cause. From what I can see you have no point to raise other than attacking the person. Raise a point. Are you capable of that?

Saddam should have been assassinated in the late 80's. Why wasn't he? Where were you when he was gassing the Kurds? Probably in diapers (which you still haven't grown out of)

Booby head? Nice. Birkel I really thought you were a moron, but now I can see you for the acid wit you really are. Wow. I'm really blown away. Thank you so much. Heil Bush.

People reading this thread should take in an object lesson. JJ and Charlemagne apparently don't know mockery when they see it. This is the price of earnestness. Being earnest does not require much but energy. Sure, it's a whirling dervish energy but... well... you can see the results if you read this thread.

Now, be quiet for a while and let the LLL's practice step #5 for a while.

All you can do is bluster about your rules. Rules that you create and don't even follow yourself! (and btw, that have no logical progression).
Look at your posts! :))) YOu're clearly violating #4 and #5. What a hypocrite. Pathetic, really.

see ya Birkel, no more wasting time on your trolls - you obviously don't know anything other than obfuscation and arbitrary rule-seting that applies to everyone but you. What a poor example! I wish there was some CONTENT on this site. So far, only Thomas seems to have a brain.

Birkel, you're not arguing, you're just listening to yourself - which is a pretty hopeless cause. From what I can see you have no point to raise other than attacking the person. Raise a point. Are you capable of that?

Do you see? Completely earnest. Unaware. At a loss for someone who won't play by their rulebook.

Perhaps I'm unable to muster an opinion so withering as Charlemagne. Allow the audience to judge. Perhaps my style of argumentation is more flexible: capable of marshalling evidence and mocking.

"It's so easy taking you two on I can do it two-at-a-time." HAAAAAAAAAR!

Poor incoherent pathological "Charlementalcase."
When you don't have the courage to even make a substantive argument, much less one with the slightest modicum of proper usage of the English language, you claim to have taken on two! That's rich. Yes, I suppose in some sick sort of way you fancy that you are good with keyboard karate. The problem for people such as you is that your bulldog mouth is constantly getting your Pekinese ass in trouble.

You attack other people's language skills, when yours are atrocious. You lack the most basic of skills in dialectic, rhetoric or logic, yet you criticize that in others. Not only are you the non-sequitur champion of inanity, you don't even do it well.

So you are relegated to the level of buffoonery to which you aspire, crowing and boasting that you are a gadfly when in actuality, you are a buzzing little gnat.

Quentin, you're no friend of his. You're supporting the fact that he's in harm's way. (...) Next time your friend - assuming he's seeing real action - finds himself exchanging in a firefight with a bunch of AK47-enabled terrorists, I'm sure he will feel really swell about your support.

Hmm...I didn't see this at first.

Now I'm usually a gentle, softy bunny-like creature most of the time.

But let me say this.

Fuck you, cunt.

My friend is a soldier, first and foremost. He knows he's going into harm's way - that's what they fucking pay him for.

I know him very well, and one thing I do know is that he has no time for cretins such as yourself. The fact you would even write such drivel has just confirmed your own moral bankruptcy.

I hope you don't mind my approach to these two trolls. I've tried all sorts of tacks. Facts don't seem at all persuasive. Reason is lost on them. There's a sort of willful ignorance that is difficult to overcome. So, I was trying to bore them to death.

First, Cambodia was ripped to shreds because we let Pol Pot take advantage of the chaos we were causing during the Viet War. Millions dead! Man, where's your head? I'm sure the Cambodians are grateful for us making Pol Pot's reign possible. Camodia survived **in spite** of American intervention (same with Laos and Thailand). Go read some history! Go talk to Cambodians who lived through the killing fields, as I have. Ask them about the Domino Theory, since you're such a fan of armchair political theories that lead to millions dead.

Loas, torn asunder. Go talk to Laotian immigrants - even today! Ask them what life in Laos is like. Ask those that remember the war what it did to their culture.

Vietnam. The great Vietnamese people seem to have manages as a Communist nation. I hate Communism; I think it's stupid and inhumane, but Vietnam has managed to begin to develop in spite of all we didi to rape the place.

btw, the rest of SE Asia was in turmoil while we were fighting the Viet War. they weren't "developing" anything byut political choas and anarchy. Go read some history or don't post.

As for Russia, read my prior remarks. Yes, we fought Communism and it's aggressive foreign policies, but we got "hooked" into more of a war abroad and at home than we needed to. We got led down a road that was WAY more war-mongering than necessary. Go read the now-released Russian archives and see what a pathetic mess the USSR was is from the mid 70's. It was collapsing under its own weight. Russians hated their leaders, the Eastern bloc countries were numb from isolation, etc. please, read some damn history!

ciao,
Charlemagne

Charlemagne, you are a fool. And stop using the name of one of the West's great heroes!

"Damnit Frank, keep the troll cookies in your pocket." Lol! Agreed, Birkel. I'm sorry, but it was indeed difficult to stop from egging them on in their mutual mindless metaphorical masturbation. But since the results of such actions as theirs are always sterile, you're right that it is best that I leave them to pursue their endeavors elsewhere.

I've done enough observation of the moonbats for my own amusement at the expense of others here. For that I apologize. I do hope however that some of our less cognitively challenged brethren enjoyed seeing some raving moonbats self-destruct from their loathing of the world and themselves.

The great Vietnamese people seem to have manages(sic) as a Communist nation.
Step #3. Notice how this witness assumes the definition for terms not already defined. This allows the type of slipperiness necessary to spit nonsense repeatedly. What does "manages" mean? Life expectancy? Infectious diseases spread? Home ownership? You see, this is classic leftist argumentation.

As for Russia, read my prior remarks
Anecdotes are fun. I'll try some. I know a Russian guy who tells me the stories you learned form your Russian friends are garbage. And I know a PhD in Russian History who says so too.

Enlist in the military if you're so gung-ho about the war in Iraq.
I already covered this one above:

In Charlemagne's world
you enlist or you're a chickenhawk = arguing an issue
Okay, now let me try
you make the above argument = showing your a** for all to see
Wow, this line of argumentation is fun AND easy. I should try it more often.

Quentin, dragging out Lee Kuan Yew? How seriously pathetic; the guy who rose to power as a corrupt politician, and made everyone - even America - angry as a result.

This is the slimeball who started the "Asian Values" movement in Singapore. Hey, go to Singapore some time and chew on a piece of Wrigley's - then go directly to jail.

Here's a little bit about "Asian Values" - not a whole lot different than Communism, if you ask me.

Asian values was a buzzword popular in the 1990s which argued for a unique set of Asian governmental institutions and political ideologies which possesed a kind of authoritarian collectivism in the belief that it was superior to Western values of democracy and individualism. Asian values was strong in Malaysia, Singapore, and in some political circles in Japan.

In Malaysia and Singapore, the concept was embraced because it reconciled Islam and the ethnic Chinese community into an ideology that could challenge the West. In Japan, it was popular among some nationalistic circles because it challenged the West and also offered the possibility of Japanese leadership in a new Asia.

Mahathir bin Mohamad and Lee Kuan Yew, the prime ministers of Malaysia and Singapore, respectively, at that time, were particularly vocal advocates of Asian values.

Go read what Fareed Zakaria has written about 'Asian values', then come back and talk to me.

Quentin, now that you've been shown up on Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam (not to mention Russia), and you've fragged out pathetic Singapoire (for crying out loud!) - who's next? Sri Lanka?

Charlemagne convientiently forgets that the ideology of POL POT was gleaned from his time at the sorbonne in paris mixing with his left wing colleagues who like this poster had much to ponder on revolution having never even ever had to kill and eat their own chickens, conveniently served up on the terraces of les deux magots and other ST michel establishments.
Revolution is started by the bourgeois middle class in the same manner that many of today's islamofascists are university educated and use the ideology of the left to justify tgeir outrages.

If I am going to take your well-intentioned advice and stop teasing the trolltards so that they may slink back to their suppurating oblivion over at DU, oughtn't you be a sport and do the same?

Their comments about Quentin and his friend were egregiously bad, but we've had our fun with the terrorist sympathizing trolls now. It's become an exercise in ennui. Even the humor at their clueless expense starts to cloy.

I do hope that Quentin catches up with them one day, face to face, just to see if they have such courage when not cowering behind their computers.

Birkel, incidentally, you just broke your own rule #5..and........now you're little pea brain is trying to rest an the laurels of your vita? btw, Pol Pot graduated cum laude from the Sorbonne. Academic credentials don't impress me, even though I have a few more degrees (and books written) than you do.

Hey, guys, your car is 'made in China'.
Your toys are 'Made in China'.
Your computer is 'Made in China'.
Your clothes are 'Made in China'.
Your furniture is 'Made in China'.
Most of the electronics in your house are 'Made in China'.

But at least (and politicians are clever about this), your Prime Minister / President can give you the feeling you people do something great for your country and the WORLD (The Great WORLD) by invading another country which has not developped in his own timeframe and way ?

Thomas, what are you a benefactor of? An unwise policy of military interventino in a country that was already ripped to shreds by sanctions? Real American lives lost, for NOTHING?! Frankly, as an American taxpayer that bothers me. As the father that bothers me.

How convenient it is for you to say (as you posted above) "Ive actually considered enlisting. I probably wouldn't be doing the free world much good however, picture a fatter, older, Bill Murray from Stripes."

Go emlist! If you're old enough, enlist! Especially if you BELIEVE in thsi war. Advise your friends to enlist their children - go ahead!

I see a lot of war-mongering on blogs like this, but no one who is ready to stand up and fight - unless living vicariously through blogging associates who might know a few martial arts skills.

What a pathetic bunch of wonkers! Put your damn lives - and the lives of your children - where your damn mouths are - or shut the f*** up!

Oliver, Right on, man. These dumbf**** can't see that through their Bud Lite's. They're perfect for the manipulative, fear-mongering that Shrub and his ilk put out there. I actually feel sorry for them because it's *these very people* who will feel the weight of the waste of American potential first. Obviously, they're not from the elite classes.

First "Charlemongrel" implies that I am homosexual (and also implies every other male commenter on the blog who does not agree with him is homosexual) in the most condescending, derisive and degrading way. Then, when his obvious use of this tactic is pointed out to him for the negative slur which he intended, he calls me a homophobe. You see how just, concerned and fair-minded these lefties are? The party of so-called compassion!

They will accuse you of two diametrically opposed things at once, neither of which are true.

As you simper behind your computer screen, "Charlemutant" I applaud you on your bravery to both accuse me of homosexuality and then accuse me of bigotry against homosexuals without missing a beat. It's tactics like that that are going to put you in a very serious world of hurt.

Quentin George is not the only one you have to fear encountering. But like all blog bullies, you think your day will never come.

Remember, you were the first one out of the chute to suggest "latency", remember (I wouldn't expect that you would).

Anyway, it does seem to resonate that you're a homophobe because you're seemingly so put out by the accusation. If the shoe fits...

btw, Quentin-whoever-he-is will run into a 260# bad boy who is **experienced** in Gracie Ju-Jitsu backed up by 10 years of Hsing-yi. I'd love to meet him, as would a number of my Gracie gymnasium friends (all Republicans, btw) who are sick and tired of whackos like you, Quentin, pea-brain Birkel, and the rest co-opting our once-great Republican party.
Anytime, baby....anytime.

POl POts abuses were made possible by the ideology he gleaned from his french studies.
This left wing french background, the creme de la creme, gave him the unmitigated support of the international left. Chomsky the doyen of doyens lauded and praised him ad nauseum. Indeed the solidarity was extented well after the news of the genocide began to surface in the west.
So the solidarity of the left , as had been afforded to the likes of Stalin by a host of british intellectuals, is no different from the early unholy alliance between the americans and the mujehadines of osama Bin ladin.
Just as a serial rapist who rescues a small child fom the wheels of a passing truck is entitled to praise for his efforts, the fact that no one is clean does not deny their abilty to do good.
Now your beloved italy is expelling its immigrants under the leadership of the much maligned Berlusconi. Does this make you ashamed to be of italian descent?
The ridiculous insults you fire at posters on this site do you little justice and merely serve to discredit your arguments form any readers that might be influenced by them and expose you as a mere cicerone worthy of a Naples street corner.

Put your damn lives - and the lives of your children - where your damn mouths are - or shut the f*** up!

I wont shut up. Technically I am too old to enlist. As I stated earlier my daughter is eligible in 8 years, I am encouraging her to join (the U.S. service) but the choice will be hers.

I think the toppling and reconstruction of 2 tyrannical mid-east nations is to the benefit of the entire world, in the long run.

You may be right that Iraq had nothing to do with the price of tea in China, where terrorism is concerned. You may be wrong. I dont think we should just 'take our chances'.

I truly dont care about my life, I want my daughter and my future grand-children to enjoy what I have been blessed with.

Sorry you are so angry. Bush could have done nothing, maybe lodged a complaint with the United Dictators er., Nations, I suppose that would have been the politicly safe thing to do. He did what he thought was right.

davo, again you misquote history. Who cares about where Pol Pot got his sick ideas. The bottom line is that he would *never* have been able to carry out his reign of terror if we hadn't been engaged in Vietnam. That war made the conditions for the rape of Cambodia possible.

As for rejecting immigrants, Berlusconi is demanding that Libya and Tunisia stop letting boatleads of of literally **thousands** of people from overtaking small Mediterranean islands. Many are downing in an attempt to make Italian shores. Read La Stampa, or listen to Italian radio.

As far as discreditation, you haven't nbrought up a single argument that is historically accurate within the context of what actually happened on the ground.

And do you think I want to gain the credibility of the numbskulls on this list who laugh at those who would ask for peace. They're Neanderthals, the lot of them.

Thomas, Although misguided, at least you put your 'money where your mouth is'. I will pray for your daughter. I am praying for her right now - and fervently hope that she escapes your influence in these matters before she reaches the age of reason.

Good god, man! It's your DAUGHTER! For what! For a bone-headed excursion into a desert land full of people who do NOT and will never think like us?

Think about that! Work for peace, like the people that your fellow numbskull bloggers are making fun off. Just think! Using something other than blunt force to make the world a better place. What a concept!

Thomas, btw, the UN is bankrupt and should be replaced. Do we see Shrub doing anything like that? Forging powerful alliances that can morph into an international police force to take out dictators like Saddam *before* they get really dangerous? No.

Why? Because teh military industrial complex that Eisenhower warned us about has Bush and his people in their pocket.

Thomas, the Iraqi's ARE civilized. They have a different idea about how to live life. Not everyone wants American-style democracy. For crying out loud, most of Europe is Democratic Socialism - that seems to work.

Yuu would sacrifice your daughter before supporting efforts by your and other governments to resolve problems peacefully?

Yes, there terrorists in the world that need to be killed. So, let's go kill them, but we should not squander our efforts in impossible interventions - when will we learn?

Thomas, Does it worry you that Dick Cheney, as president of the nefarious Halliburton Corporation, sold Iraq $73 million in oilfield services between 1997 and 2000, even as he plotted with the Wolfowitz faction to whack Saddam? Or that Halliburton, with its CEO's seat still warm from Cheney's butt, was awarded unbid contracts worth up to $15 billion for the Iraq invasion, and currently earns a billion dollars a month from this bloody disaster? Not to mention its $27.4 million overcharge for our soldiers' food.

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Members of the military and their families say the Bush administration underestimated the number of troops needed in Iraq and put too much pressure on inadequately trained National Guard and reserve forces, according to a poll released Saturday.

The National Annenberg Election Survey questioned active duty troops in the regular military and the National Guard and Reserves, as well as family members of active duty members.

Family members were more critical of the administration's Iraq policy than those on active duty.

The poll found that 62 percent in the military sample -- 58 percent of troops and 66 percent of family members -- said the administration underestimated the number of troops that would be needed to establish peace in Iraq. (from Part 1 of the Annenberg survey results)

And do you think I want to gain the credibility of the numbskulls on this list who laugh at those who would ask for peace.

Those who "ask for peace" must be informed about those whom they negotiate with.
Ghandi and martin Luther King were well aware of those with whim they were in conflict.
How do you think they would have fared against the warriors of Islam or the NAzi troups of herr Hitler.
I suggest you and your peace loving friends read bat yeor's Islam and dhimmitued and discover when the conflicts truly began.
You might then realise how ridiculous "asking for peace is " because there has never been any peace.
Or perhaps Oriana fallaci whose arguments may be emotional , but then SHE IS a truly great passionate Italian and can be excused the odd error.