This thread sucks! I don’t know these ‘friends’ very well, but despite the fact that their use of glue can be a bit liberal and that they have been a bit cheeky in bolting lines that have been spied by others (comment made to appease my friends), they have put a massive amount of effort into developing new lines and access and no way deserve to be the subject of this much slagging, especially when most of those that have slagged them off will probably fall on one of their bolts this weekend.

I initially met one of these ‘friends’ for the first time at another one of the crags that they had developed and they didn’t really act like they ‘owned it’ at all, they were happy to sell the quality of the routes that they had bolted.
Did these ‘friends’ ever claim ownership of this crag? or just ownership of their opinions about and knowledge of the routes? which is something that they DO own. Are they really compelled to divulge this info for the benefit of individuals or a community that isn’t gonna give them anything useful back, or maybe they just because they cant be f^%ked sitting down and compiling it, which is fair enough too?
I doubt they want to stop you from clipping the bolt that they placed, they are just not gonna hold your hand through the process. You can still go and climb at Bville without them telling you about it, just go and find it (we all know it is on narowneck) and choose a line and climb it, although it may be hard for some to work out if they like it or not without someone telling them how many stars it has...

If it was me that had bolted so prolifically, i wouldn’t care if ppl climbed the routes, but there is no way I would go out of my way to help the whole world find them especially if it was going to mean flocks of squawking geese hanging off the wall every Sunday...

I know bugger all about ‘onsight’ except for his productions, and owe many a good day out to the hard work put into the previous guides, as will prob be the case with the new. But seeing as the brand has much to benefit out of momentum in the Bluies climbing scene, and given that the ‘friends’ are such prolific bolters, i don’t really see any problem with a friendly swap of handful of bolts (which is what seems to be what they wanted rather than bucket loads of cash as many seem to have assumed) for a significant amount of info and the time that it takes to deliver it (with the proviso that any subsequent route info was given over freely)... just seems like a bit of mutual back scratching to me... everyone wins – especially us bottom feeders who do bugger all... and I would similarly expect the ‘friends’ to accept a tokin payment that was far less than the economic value of the routes bc they have already got plenty of other value out of them...

It is funny to see that people seem fine with the idea of some people gaining out of labour related to climbing but not others... and that support in this thread went straight to the side that is going to benefit the bottom feeders in the short term...

as an aside - i think that "cogsy's" assement of BoganVille as 'brilliant'is probably stretching it a bit =)

Just remember that bolts = money. Bolts don't grow on trees. If you are asking for bolts you might as well ask for cash. A professional ringbolt costs about $5 a pop, a home made one maybe $2 (excluding labour).

Linze I think you miss the point....you cant bolt new routes then expect other to support your new routing with new bolts...be it another climber, govt, passer by or guide book author.

Ive imported more than 4000 bolts for bolting purposes...some ive given to Climbing anchors to sell (cost price back to me, he had slight markup as he was running a business)...others I have given away to friends some bolting with me, some not, used them myself on my own projects and even given some to Mikl to try and destroy.

Its was my choice to place them, once the place became public I freely gave up the info to the routes and that was that. I and like 95% of others wouldnt even think of asking for a few bolts for my "hard" work..no matter how nice the guy is asking for bolts, it just not on.......end of story.

On 13/05/2010 nmonteith wrote:>Just remember that bolts = money. Bolts don't grow on trees. If you are>asking for bolts you might as well ask for cash. A professional ringbolt>costs about $5 a pop, a home made one maybe $2 (excluding labour).

diagree, bc the bolts would most prob go back in the wall and thus the scratching of backs would continue, while cash might not go past the ivanhoe... plus information also often = money bc it requires time and often money to aquire and distribute and is then exchanged for more money,ie throu the sale and purchase of a guide book

Maybe labour time could be a fairer exchange??? the information about new routes could be delivered while they were happily bending bolts together....ha

On 13/05/2010 rodw wrote:>Linze I think you miss the point....you cant bolt new routes then expect>other to support your new routing with new bolts...be it another climber,>govt, passer by or guide book author.>>Ive imported more than 4000 bolts for bolting purposes...some ive given>to Climbing anchors to sell (cost price back to me, he had slight markup>as he was running a business)...others I have given away to friends some>bolting with me, some not, used them myself on my own projects and even>given some to Mikl to try and destroy.

did they 'expect' to get money back, doubt they set of to BV with this intention. my impression from the intial posting is that they just affronted by a percved 'expectaion' that they are obliged to give up the info so that another party can use it as they please????.

Its part of the obligation when they used public lands that they didnt own for there own enjoyment...would be different if they actually owned the cliff but they didnt.

My understanding of events, Simon asked for info, they said no unless you give us bolts (they are entitled to ask)...Simon said nope so used what info he had (he is entitled to say no, and use what info he has)...phm comes on saying its not right as Simon had no right???

Simon didn't bring it up in a public forum...phm did...so if your friends are feeling aggrieved maybe direct it at phm who bought the issue up in the first place. Its really a non issue its been settled before it came public here....as the crags in the book anyway.

On 13/05/2010 rodw wrote:>Its part of the obligation when they used public lands that they didnt>own for there own enjoyment...would be different if they actually owned>the cliff but they didnt.

disagree.i think the ethics of this are very far from being so clear cut

>My understanding of events, Simon asked for info, they said no unless>you give us bolts (they are entitled to ask)...Simon said nope so used>what info he had (he is entitled to say no, and use what info he has)...phm>comes on saying its not right as Simon had no right???

Agree. dont think anonymous attempt at naming and shaming was a good way to voice an opinion...>>Simon didn't bring it up in a public forum...phm did...so if your friends>are feeling aggrieved maybe direct it at phm who bought the issue up in>the first place. Its really a non issue its been settled before it came>public here....as the crags in the book anyway.

they are not my friends..tho i did genuinly feel like these guys had been slighly hard done by in some of the comments... and i just wanted to stir up the dabate and keep my day interesting... ..

>disagree.i think the ethics of this are very far from being so clear cut

Thats ethics for ya...everyones line in the sand is different.

>they are not my friends..tho i did genuinly feel like these guys had been>slighly hard done by in some of the comments... and i just wanted to stir>up the dabate and keep my day interesting... ..

Yeah but that also forums, people can dish out crap they wouldnt say to a persons face...like I said if phm didnt bring it up its stays an issue btw the developers and simon...by bringing it up it becomes public domain and everyone always has an opinion.

On 13/05/2010 Linze wrote:>... and that support>in this thread went straight to the side that is going to benefit the bottom>feeders in the short term...>
Man, that term has been pissing me off since the I first read it (in an interview with Robbie Lebreton)!

The first thing I think is "wow, do these guys really divide the climbing community into an upper class who bolts and the lower class who 'just climb'?"

The second thing I think is "anyone who uses the term 'bottom feeder' is most likely an utter fcukwit!"

Most climbers I know have no desire to go bolting. A lot of the bolters I know put up shit routes for a host of strange reasons; obsessive compulsive habit, desire for fame/respect, delusion as to the quality of their new 'gem', wanting to earn 'social credit' so they can establish dominance over non bolters, etc.

If folk want to go and bolt, that's fine. Entertaining thoughts that bolting makes you better than others is a symptom of superiority-complex fcukwitism!

On 13/05/2010 Linze wrote:>On 13/05/2010 nmonteith wrote:>>Just remember that bolts = money. Bolts don't grow on trees. If you are>>asking for bolts you might as well ask for cash. A professional ringbolt>>costs about $5 a pop, a home made one maybe $2 (excluding labour).>>diagree, bc the bolts would most prob go back in the wall and thus the>scratching of backs would continue, while cash might not go past the ivanhoe...>
I actually agree with Linze on this point, bolts may cost money but will only ever be spent on making more routes.

Bringing the Ivanhoe into the debate is a good idea. There are some jobs, done for friends, for which I would never dream of accepting money. I would, however, accept beer as a show of appreciation.

On 13/05/2010 One Day Hero wrote:>I actually agree with Linze on this point, bolts may cost money but will>only ever be spent on making more routes.

Its false economy. I'm sure I can make u-bolts vastly cheaper than most people can source bolts for. So if you gave me cash you would get a much greater return (on bolt quantity) then if you gave me bolts. Unless someone is forking over thousands of $ it wouldn't even come close to paying off what is already spent - and what would be spent in the future!

On 13/05/2010 nmonteith wrote:>Its false economy. I'm sure I can make u-bolts vastly cheaper than most>people can source bolts for. So if you gave me cash you would get a much>greater return (on bolt quantity) then if you gave me bolts. Unless someone>is forking over thousands of $ it wouldn't even come close to paying off>what is already spent - and what would be spent in the future!

When you say 'spent' I assume that you mean 'spent in bolts' not 'spent in dollars'?

That's a good point, the folk bolting are most likely to be the ones making the bolts already.......donations of rod stock and glue? There's something less awkward about giving folk stuff to do a job with (or beer) than handing them cash.

Anyway, I don't really have a huge problem with these guys asking for donations of materials, not so sure about specifically asking Onsight to donate though. I don't really have a problem with secret crags either........in fact, the only problem I do have is that all the good routes in the Blueys are either in the Grose or were snaffled by Giles, Crunch, Claw and Co. pre 2000!

On 13/05/2010 One Day Hero wrote:>>The first thing I think is "wow, do these guys really divide the climbing>community into an upper class who bolts and the lower class who 'just climb'?"

chockstone's own angry marxist..... call em what you want, but there are a bunch of climbers (myself included) that consume the surplus generated by the efforts of others...it seems the 'bottom' feeders are in fact acting like a ruling elite or 'upper class'.

how about a non profit guide? and then those of us that do F^%k all would be forced to contribute through the work we do outside of climbing when we buy the thing...

otherwise, ODH we are really going to have to learn get along for the good of the revolution comrade....

Agree for rebolting efforts donations more then acceptable....but for new routes.... no. If you cant afford to put up new routes or dont want to pay for it, go climb the 1000's of routes already out there....TBH no ones going to miss that climb that you dont end up putting up...thinking they will is a bit delusional.

I like to hear if people like the routes I put up...that enough kudos for meif i get it...and should be enough for anybody.

>Man, that term has been pissing me off since the I first read it (in an>interview with Robbie Lebreton)!>>The first thing I think is "wow, do these guys really divide the climbing>community into an upper class who bolts and the lower class who 'just climb'?">>The second thing I think is "anyone who uses the term 'bottom feeder'>is most likely an utter fcukwit!">
This is getting a bit off topic, but i just had to throw my 2 cents worth in and defend Robbie's name here. I'm a good friend of Rob's and can tell you he is one of the nicest guys around! The comment from that interview is probably a bit out of context, and i think from memory i even read that article and thought that it wasn't written, worded very well. The comment was about someone wanting to steal a project that you have put your vision hard work and money into and can't even give you the respect of at least letting you have a good crack at doing it first. It wasn't about those out there that just enjoy to climb but don't want to bolt

The thing that gets me about this use of "bottom feeders" is the assumption that the only people doing any favours to the sport are people going out bolting. There are a whole bunch of people doing working ensuring access, negotiating with parks, track maintainance, rebolting, revegetation, trad new routing, rubbish removal, internet info and updates etc etc, mostly unpaid and underappreciated.

And as to the payment being for the work involved in recording the info - I can't imagine that anyone just develops a cliff without recording the information for their own benefit. They're not being asked to produce publishable standard work - that's what a guidebook editor does. And I have never heard of guide books being a gold mine. Infact, my understanding is that stupidly large amounts of time go into it, and publishing costs have to be recouped before any dent is made in that massive backlog of hours, and we are hardly talking international bestsellers here.

In all this carrying on, I would think that the people whose thoughts are most valuable in this discussion are those also involved in extensive bolting of new routes - and I don't think any of the other people who have sunk 10s of 1000s of dollars into Australian cliff support the idea of payment, in bolts or otherwise. Yes, putting up sport routes is costly that is probably underrecognised by many. But it is a choice to do it. Presumably peopple choose to put that money into the routes for their own benefit in some way shape or form. People can always learn from the Malaysian example if they want to - buy the cliff, put in a few facilities and charge access, but I think that would be rather tragic. Not to mention also unprofitable.