Which skaters are truly "legendary"...

Goebel is not legendary in anyway, shape, or form. Even in the U.S he is barely known today and would make a good trivia question. He is barely more known than that Chinese guy Guo who was the first to 2 quads in one program, the same way Tim was the first to do 3.

I'd take Yagudin off and leave Kwan off. I think Kwan is/will be legendary for US skating fans, but my impression has been fans in other parts of the world were much less wowed by her, and the list creator specified legendary world wide.

I'd also make it Rodnina & Zietsev, since I found her first partner totally un-memorable. I would, in fact, leave off pretty much everyone that folks have suggested adding so far except for Janet Lynn and Dorothy Hamill. The only other pair I think have a case for adding would be Mishkutenok/Dmitriev partly because they defined a whole new style of pairs.

I think a case can also be made for Scott Hamilton, as he won pretty much everything he entered for 4 seasons, brought a new kind of interpretive ability to ice skating, and really developed pro style skating.

I think Kristi Y and Kurt Browning will also be remembered for decades in the US, I don't know if their legend will hold up world wide.

For ice dance, Torvill & Dean are legendary, Klimova/Ponomarenko are a sentimental add for me, having spent 8 years rooting for them, but IMO no other dance team comes close to those two.

I take legendary as meaning a skater people will still talk about in 30 or 50 years, the way fans today are still aware of Button and Henie and Curry. I think it is way too early to know which skaters of the past decade will hold up as legendary.

Do we need to add Gillis Grafstrom, who defined figure skating in the early part of the 20th century, when it really was about skating figures? I guess, in her own way, Trixi Schuba is pretty legendary too.

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True, Schuba will be remembered Worldwide (dont know if legendary is the right word) many a long time to come.

Grafstrom would be a good addition to the list.

Is Dorothy Hamill really that big a star outside North America? I dont get the impression she made the impact outside of this part of the World as Lynn, Fleming, or even Seyfert did.

Well, at the very least, Cecelia Colledge was the first to perform the camel spin in competition, and, either way, this comment would be sexist because this point of contention detracts from the contributions of women, in general, by giving credit to neither woman.

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I was unsure at the time of the post as to whether Colledge was the first to perform it in competition or not. Now that it's established that she was, I will give her credit! (What did Grafstrom's variation look like and how did it differ from what we know today as the camel spin? Did he do it in competition? Depending on how similar it was, perhaps he should get the credit for first doing it). I wouldn't want to take away credit from someone else if someone else had done it in competition.

In general, I'm also interested in who has done what skills have been done, and who was the first to do them, even in practice. I'm so glad David Jenkins' triple axel in *1957* was caught on tape, because it's truly amazing and mind-boggling, and he deserves some serious credit for that too, though Vern Taylor remains the official first in international competition, more than 20 years later. I've also seen video, for example, of Chris Mabee doing a very good quad loop attempt, something he never tried in competition and that has still never been performed cleanly in competition I don't think. Also of Sasha Cohen's quad sal attempt. It's cool to see obscure practice videos with the advent of YouTube. I'm fascinated by what people might have been doing in practice back in the day before Youtube and if any footage exists. That's not to take away from the ones who first do elements cleanly in international competition, since that's a feat worthy of recognition in itself. (But not necessarily SO MUCH more recognition than proven attempts from minor competitions or even practice. It's a shame that the Zhangs' absolutely beautiful throw quad sal from a Chinese competition has never been and probably never will be recognized by the ISU, especially after the precedent they've set now by "homologating" Brandon Mroz's 4Lutz from the Colorado Springs Invitational. Though it's a somewhat moot point because he also performed it creditably in international competition shortly afterward).

That was a cool spin from Cecilia in the video, but technically at least today it wouldn't be considered a flying camel since she was already spinning on the other foot before jumping to the other foot in the camel position.

I was unsure at the time of the post as to whether Colledge was the first to perform it in competition or not. Now that it's established that she was, I will give her credit! (What did Grafstrom's variation look like and how did it differ from what we know today as the camel spin? Did he do it in competition? Depending on how similar it was, perhaps he should get the credit for first doing it) . . .

That was a cool spin from Cecilia in the video, but technically at least today it wouldn't be considered a flying camel since she was already spinning on the other foot before jumping to the other foot in the camel position.

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It is probably in a similar way that Grafstrom's variation was not a true "camel spin", so to speak, and probably was not done in competition. Remember, at this time, there were no "classic" positions . . .

. . . and the most important thing done in competition was drawings in the ice, not body positions.

Anyone who doesn't put Kwan on their list is either mad because she beat their favs or just doesn't like her skating. Liking her or not, her accomplishments are legendary even without that Olympic gold medal. 9 World medals, 5 World titles, 2 Olympic medals, 9 U.S. National titles during a time when the US produced 2 Olympic champions not named Kwan. Not to mention she never did or said anything to get herself into the least bit of trouble and continues to be extremely respected, almost a decade after her last competition.

Championships are awarded by judges, who score by the rulebook and don't need to be wowed. My point was that she was not as popular nor held in such high regard by fans in other parts of the world. I think legendary is defined more broadly than titles. Kwan was an excellent textbook skater, remarkable for her jumping consistency, but she didn't really bring anything new to skating nor change the sport in any way.

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She was Yu Na Kim's idol when Yu Na was growing up. Also, Akiko Suzuki's. They count as fans, don't they? She is the gold standard when it comes to artistry and consistency. Who else has a body of work like hers, with numerous back to back clean programs and numerous skates that always end up on "best" or "favorite" lists. Skating was never more popular than when she was competing. And I don't think there is any basis for saying she wasn't held in high regard by the rest of the world. Tarasova said she skated like "a goddess." The British Eurosport commentators loved her. She was the ultimate muse to her choreographer, Lori Nichol, a Canadian. Sandra Bezic's commentary at Michelle's performances at the 1998 Pro Am's is epic: "For Michelle...it's the passion to skate." It is, of course, your right to leave her off your list, but you are in the minority.

Goebel is not legendary in anyway, shape, or form. Even in the U.S he is barely known today and would make a good trivia question. He is barely more known than that Chinese guy Guo who was the first to 2 quads in one program, the same way Tim was the first to do 3.

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That's a bit harsh (comparing him with Guo). I agree that Tim is not legendary, but he was the first US man to land a quad in a competition, and one of the few to land 3 quads in a program. He was a world silver medalist and an Olympic bronze medalist. That's nothing to sneer at. Certainly Guo's accomplishments were nowhere close to Tim's.

Unlike others I would keep Yagudin on. I actually have more doubts about Plushenko than I do Yagudin. I am not sure if Plushenko is a big deal outside of Europe. Yagudin Americanilized himself so is still very famous and loved over here, moreso than Plushenko who is mostly vilified in this part of the World these days. Yagudin has also toured and built up more of a folllowing in Asia than Plushenko has.

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Sorry, guys, You might be bored with my Plushenko mania, but when I read some inaccurate things, and those show some lack of knowledge I have to write. The reality is very different, Judy...

In Asia, especially in Japan Plushy has a huuuuuge fan base since 1999. He is the most popular foreign skater in Japan. In 2010 he has 30 shows in that summer after he will order the container, because Plu wanted to carry every gifts to Russia, the gifts already more than 500 kg( cca 1100 pounds).
Look at this, front of the hotel on the street http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsEpvr0_eV4
and in airport http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beDs0yAWrPk
aftwer the show http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOL6hpTlqvQ He is a rock star in Japan. Or he is the blond Russian prince, they call him sonny boy...
this is so cute..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEYtHcBrkEo and many videos were deleted, because the Japanese are so shy. But we can see those videos in 2010.
The japanese were the most who signed the peticion for the ISU, they wanted to revision of the final result after Vancouver.

I agree, actually. She has left a lasting impression on the sport and her name is known worldwide. Even aside from all the controversy, her triple axel was spectacular. And her music choices were truly the stuff of legends...

Though his name isn't as widely known as most on the list, I'll add Don Jackson. He landed the first triple lutz in international competition, where he won Worlds, won bronze at the O's, and has his own popular brand of figure skates.

She was Yu Na Kim's idol when Yu Na was growing up. Also, Akiko Suzuki's. They count as fans, don't they? She is the gold standard when it comes to artistry and consistency. Who else has a body of work like hers, with numerous back to back clean programs and numerous skates that always end up on "best" or "favorite" lists. Skating was never more popular than when she was competing. And I don't think there is any basis for saying she wasn't held in high regard by the rest of the world. Tarasova said she skated like "a goddess." The British Eurosport commentators loved her. She was the ultimate muse to her choreographer, Lori Nichol, a Canadian. Sandra Bezic's commentary at Michelle's performances at the 1998 Pro Am's is epic: "For Michelle...it's the passion to skate." It is, of course, your right to leave her off your list, but you are in the minority.

I would add Janet Lynn to that list. She spoke of returning to Japan in the 90s and still being famous there, and Japan wasnt even a huge skating country at the time.

Unlike others I would keep Yagudin on. I actually have more doubts about Plushenko than I do Yagudin. I am not sure if Plushenko is a big deal outside of Europe. Yagudin Americanilized himself so is still very famous and loved over here, moreso than Plushenko who is mostly vilified in this part of the World these days. Yagudin has also toured and built up more of a folllowing in Asia than Plushenko has.

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Plushenko is also very popular in Asia, but you know what? I've noticed that a lot of young fans of FS don't know who Yagudin was and they discovered Plushenko just recently because he came back for the Vancouver Olympics. So I don't know which skaters are legendary, probably those who are very famous a long long time after their retirement/death like Salcow, Sonja Henje, Irina Rodnina, etc. I wouldn't add contemporary skaters to that list yet.

I remember Fumie Suguri also listed Michelle as her idol. I believe Michelle was quite popular in China for a while too. Her Chinese heritage probably helped but I'm sure her skating also had a lot to do with it.

Plushenko is also very popular in Asia, but you know what? I've noticed that a lot of young fans of FS don't know who Yagudin was and they discovered Plushenko just recently because he came back for the Vancouver Olympics. So I don't know which skaters are legendary, probably those who are very famous a long long time after their retirement/death like Salcow, Sonja Henje, Irina Rodnina, etc. I wouldn't add contemporary skaters to that list yet.

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Maybe. The number of fan cams of Plushenko on Youtube from Asian (mainly Japanese female) fans may mean that those fans are more attached to him since he competed in the last two Olympics.

I think both are legends. Some might find Plushenko more majestic and charismatic (hence the "Czar"), but I think Yagudin left more memorable programs. I believe Yagudin's programs will draw more viewers in the long run, compared to Plushenko's. I hope Japanese Plushy fans would not erase Yagudin program videos with high number hits on Youtube!

Heinie, Button, Kwan, Torvill & Dean, Curry. I wouldn't (necessarily) put everyone on the list as an all-time great skater, but they are synonymous with figure skating and are known across a wide spectrum, even if the older ones don't live in the public consciousness as they did at one time. Gordeeva and Grinkov are legendary in the sport but a lot of people don't know who they are outside the sport. Most have heard of Kwan, T&D. Heinie, Button, and I think a surprising number know Curry.

Plushenko is also very popular in Asia, but you know what? I've noticed that a lot of young fans of FS don't know who Yagudin was and they discovered Plushenko just recently because he came back for the Vancouver Olympics.

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No you are wrong. He has a lots of fans since 1999 for example in 2000 or in 2001 a japanese fan group travelled in St. Petersburg, they wanted to meet with Plushy, and they spent an entire day with him in that beautiful city.
Look at this video. Plushy was only 16, at NHK Trophy, he was 11 minutes on the ice, the crowd didn't want to he finish his skating. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8hjyJ1dClI ( at the and of the video Plu with the little Miki.) And one year later he became a young man, the women went crazy for him http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aGZXEs4dIE Would like to see more? I know many Japanese women begin to learn Russian because of him. You believe me, I know what I'm talking about.

Is there any reliable definition of "legend"? It's a big word. Does it mean legendary in a common sense, like having achieved something for the sport that was/is absolutely unique?

Toller Cranston's "Ice Cream" contains imo who could be considered legendary.

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I would define it as someone whose skating transcends time and space. That is why we have skaters from different countries and different eras on the list. It's not a popularity contest, like whose skating is being watched the most.

It's someone that left a lasting impression on the sport by doing something extraordinary- e.g. The Protopopovs changed pairs skating forever, Elvis Stojko made the quad jump routine, Midori Ito's triple axel, Torville-Dean's row of 6.0's for Bolero (a moment etched in skating history). Not every legend will be known to a casual fan, but the real fans will remember them and/or try to dig up their tapes or youtubes to watch what they did.

I usually do not include any of the current skaters on the list because their careers are still developing. One exception, however. Plushenko has already achieved the legendary status in spite of being a 'current' skater. His comeback in the 2010 Olympics and his efforts to skate in his 4th Olympics - yes, the efforts- are legendary. In the quad-jump era, I have not seen a skater with such longevity, and such passion for the sport that he undergoes numerous surgeries and rehabs just to be able to compete.

Currently there are skaters that could become legends- V&M, Chan, Yu na Kim, and possibly D&W (they are almost there, IMO). If D&W win the OGM in Sochi, they will definitely be legendary, in case their two world titles are not.

Some skaters are legends in their own countries, but not worldwide, and that is very understandable.

The bottomline is there is no fixed definition of a legend. Each one makes up his/her own definition. Some are limited to the country (like someone mentioned Korpi and Joubert). For a broader definition I would go for a wider fan base and a very long time frame to define it.

No you are wrong. He has a lots of fans since 1999 for example in 2000 or in 2001 a japanese fan group travelled in St. Petersburg, they wanted to meet with Plushy, and they spent an entire day with him in that beautiful city.
Look at this video. Plushy was only 16, at NHK Trophy, he was 11 minutes on the ice, the crowd didn't want to he finish his skating. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8hjyJ1dClI ( at the and of the video Plu with the little Miki.) And one year later he became a young man, the women went crazy for him http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aGZXEs4dIE Would like to see more? I know many Japanese women begin to learn Russian because of him. You believe me, I know what I'm talking about.

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I'm not ciocio, but my two cents: There are avid fans for each star who follow his/her career from the start. It's those same avid fans who upload close encounter fan cams on Youtube, and they don't necessarily represent a broader fan base. No doubt Plushenko has been popular outside of Europe, especially among Japanese female fans for a long time, but at the same time I guess many of his fans in Japan started following his career since Turin (not you or your friends, obviously). Number of contemporay followers in a certain segment or age/gender group of a market doesn't necessarily translate into the status of the figure in the broad scheme of things.

It's not that I don't consider Plushenko as a legend in figure skating.

I'm not ciocio, but my two cents: There are avid fans for each star who follow his/her career from the start. It's those same avid fans who upload close encounter fan cams on Youtube, and they don't necessarily represent a broader fan base. No doubt Plushenko has been popular outside of Europe, especially among Japanese female fans for a long time, but at the same time I guess many of his fans in Japan started following his career since Turin (not you or your friends, obviously). Number of contemporay followers in a certain segment or age/gender group of a market doesn't necessarily translate into the status of the figure in the broad scheme of things.

It's not that I don't consider Plushenko as a legend in figure skating.

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Probably. I don't know his every fans in Japan, but I can show his incredible popularity in that country today, where many people go crazy for figure skating. Thank God!! Plushy has more than 123 000 followers on twitter, most of them are Japanese, I think more like Russian. Oh I almost forget, Plushy has own watch Ulysse Nardin Champion Plushenko http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9Gm-9Jd1u4 he advertised it in Japan in summer of 2012 ( the price: 11 000$)

Maybe. The number of fan cams of Plushenko on Youtube from Asian (mainly Japanese female) fans may mean that those fans are more attached to him since he competed in the last two Olympics.

I think both are legends. Some might find Plushenko more majestic and charismatic (hence the "Czar"), but I think Yagudin left more memorable programs. I believe Yagudin's programs will draw more viewers in the long run, compared to Plushenko's. I hope Japanese Plushy fans would not erase Yagudin program videos with high number hits on Youtube!

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Actually Lala is right because Plushenko has fans in Japan since he was a teenager and he attended competitions there (Japanese fans called him sunny boy for the first time), but obviously since he had a long career some of them forgot him, others discovered him later other rediscovered him when he came back in 2010 and went to his post-2010 shows. I know the Japanese fans upload a lot of videos with Yagudin too, I don't think they will ever be erased, if the account survives, of course.

Probably. I don't know his every fans in Japan, but I can show his incredible popularity in that country today, where many people go crazy for figure skating. Thank to God!! Plushy has more than 123 000 followers on twitter, most of them are Japanese, I think more like Russian. Oh I almost forget, Plushy has own watch Ulysse Nardin Champion Plushenko http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9Gm-9Jd1u4 he advertised it in Japan in summer of 2012 ( the price: 11 000$)

Anyone who doesn't put Kwan on their list is either mad because she beat their favs or just doesn't like her skating. Liking her or not, her accomplishments are legendary even without that Olympic gold medal. 9 World medals, 5 World titles, 2 Olympic medals, 9 U.S. National titles during a time when the US produced 2 Olympic champions not named Kwan. Not to mention she never did or said anything to get herself into the least bit of trouble and continues to be extremely respected, almost a decade after her last competition.

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Agreed. And I'd add the fact that she was an inspiration to later greats from other countries (e.g. Yuna Kim) as evidence that she is liked and appreciated by more than just the judges.

It's important to be able to look beyond one's own preferences. I mean, I've never been a huge fan of Plushenko's skating, but it's obvious to me that his competitive record and influence make him a legend.

That's a bit harsh (comparing him with Guo). I agree that Tim is not legendary, but he was the first US man to land a quad in a competition, and one of the few to land 3 quads in a program. He was a world silver medalist and an Olympic bronze medalist. That's nothing to sneer at. Certainly Guo's accomplishments were nowhere close to Tim's.

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I agree Tim had a far superior career and is a stronger skater than Guo (although Guo was a better overall jumper IMO). However he is just as close to being a complete unknown in skating circles outside of maybe the U.S (and even in the U.S you never hear any talk of him ever these days) as Guo is these days. Being the first to do a quad something on its own is just a novelty, like Vern Taylor's so called first triple axel. Being the first to push a new technical development, do it repeatedly, while winning major titles and being a top skater for a long time with it (Ito and her triple axel, Orser and his triple axel, Browning and Stojko with their quads and Elvis's quad combos, Miki first to do a quad but winning titles with the best and most consistently done ever triple lutz-triple loop instead) are the only way to achieve a real legacy by that means.

I agree Tim had a far superior career and is a stronger skater than Guo (although Guo was a better overall jumper IMO). However he is just as close to being a complete unknown in skating circles outside of maybe the U.S (and even in the U.S you never hear any talk of him ever these days) as Guo is these days. Being the first to do a quad something on its own is just a novelty, like Vern Taylor's so called first triple axel. Being the first to push a new technical development, do it repeatedly, while winning major titles and being a top skater for a long time with it (Ito and her triple axel, Orser and his triple axel, Browning and Stojko with their quads and Elvis's quad combos, Miki first to do a quad but winning titles with the best and most consistently done ever triple lutz-triple loop instead) are the only way to achieve a real legacy by that means.

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I have to disagree with you again. Guo and Goebel are simply not in the same bracket. How many world or Olympic medals did Guo win? I don't even remember that skater, and I don't care if his jumps were better. Goebel was a good skater under the 6.0 system, and I am sure he is better known outside the USA because his name appears multiple times as a podium finisher at the world/Olympic level.

The only reason someone would leave Michelle off a list was bc she does not have OGM. But she has everything else and came close - 2 times - to the OGM. Her longevity in the sport - making THREE Olympic teams - pretty much medaling every year at worlds, is unmatched by any skater in any discipline. For anyone to say she should not be on a list of worldwide greats is just a travesty. Someone would only say that if they buy the media hype that OGM defines a great skater. It does not and should not and Michelle is a perfect example of that.

For 95% of people is the US, if you asked, name one great skater of the last 20 years- Michelle is who you would mention. Michelle defined the sport in the late 90/early 2000s. Indeed, if you asked that question 10 years ago I think most ordinary people in the world not just USA would mention her. Many people may not even know she never got OGM.