Robert wrote:
I would say that to me it appears that the nature of both forms and the formless is one, which means that in essence, everything is consciousness (or Tao/God or whatever we like to call it). Also, it takes form for consciousness to realize itself, hence both forms and the formless need to exist. In our human day-to-day case, it is our nervous system that allows consciousness to focus on itself. But the nervous system is a limited form (as are all forms), which means that we are limited in what we can be conscious of.

So, you are saying that physical and non-physical have one nature and are generally one thing but then you say that everything is consciousness (non-physical)? So 1= physical + non physical and 1= non physical. It can't be both.... If both are one thing, we need a third unit to unite them, a new word perhaps, something that express that physical and non-physical are the same thing. But just thinking of that they are one thing doesn't make much sense to me....neither to the greatest physicists.

downeyjr wrote:So, you are saying that physical and non-physical have one nature and are generally one thing but then you say that everything is consciousness (non-physical)? So 1= physical + non physical and 1= non physical. It can't be both....

Not only can it be both, it is both. Physical and non-physical expressions are both comprised of vibrating energy. Atoms are not solids, they are vibrating energy. Thoughts are not just physical expressions or just non-physical expressions. They are vibrating energy in unique environments. Awareness, appropriately focused, can be conscious of either of these expressions - or any expressions of vibrating energy including non-physical.

...neither to the greatest physicists.

Who decides which physicists are the greatest? Usually it's the physicist choir. The choir is made up of those with a materialist belief about life. So there is an underlying litmus test of materialism about who gets considered for the awards... and who gets funded for research.

downeyjr wrote:So, you are saying that physical and non-physical have one nature and are generally one thing but then you say that everything is consciousness (non-physical)? So 1= physical + non physical and 1= non physical. It can't be both....

Not only can it be both, it is both. Physical and non-physical expressions are both comprised of vibrating energy. Atoms are not solids, they are vibrating energy. Thoughts are not just physical expressions or just non-physical expressions. They are vibrating energy in unique environments. Awareness, appropriately focused, can be conscious of either of these expressions - or any expressions of vibrating energy including non-physical.

...neither to the greatest physicists.

Who decides which physicists are the greatest? Usually it's the physicist choir. The choir is made up of those with a materialist belief about life. So there is an underlying litmus test of materialism about who gets considered for the awards... and who gets funded for research.

WW

Energy is still a physical thing in the physical world, atoms are physical. Existence of a non-physical entity has not be proven nor it can be proven, but so far what we see around is all physical, thus there is no point in believing in non-physical. This would be the same as to believe in Paradise and Hell and God But if you like to believe in things without facts, such as God, a flying strawberry and a non-physical entity, then nothing can be done.

Right---the One Infinite All is being this so called physical tangible world---but this world is really energy or Light slowed down-- or information appearing as 'physical things'---but in Reality the two are really one and cannot be separate from the other ---

Or think in terms of holograms; This world that appears as tangible is more like the ephemeral holographic form refractions of One Unseen Light --the Unseen Light is faster than tangible light.

Or think of a ship and its wake---this world is like the 'residue' or the wake behind the ship---the ship is moving along and it creates this wave behind it---the wake and the ship are one. This world tells us there is an invisible ship going by.

Or perhaps another analogy, think about the principle of math and its numbers. The principle is not seen, but it is being all the numbers from here to to eternity. Which of those are made of anything tangible? The numbers are seen and used, but when you erase them, the principle still exists---It's all quite a marvelous wonder this Life we are.

You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

SandyJoy wrote:Right---the One Infinite All is being this so called physical tangible world---but this world is really energy or Light slowed down-- or information appearing as 'physical things'---but in Reality the two are really one and cannot be separate from the other ---

Or think in terms of holograms; This world that appears as tangible is more like the ephemeral holographic form refractions of One Unseen Light --the Unseen Light is faster than tangible light.

Or think of a ship and its wake---this world is like the 'residue' or the wake behind the ship---the ship is moving along and it creates this wave behind it---the wake and the ship are one. This world tells us there is an invisible ship going by.

Or perhaps another analogy, think about the principle of math and its numbers. The principle is not seen, but it is being all the numbers from here to to eternity. Which of those are made of anything tangible? The numbers are seen and used, but when you erase them, the principle still exists---It's all quite a marvelous wonder this Life we are.

ENERGY = PHYSICAL - proven fact
The principle is an idea. Ideas are physical. The moment they are generated from your brain or any single nano second that you access them, it happens in a physical reality with physical processes.

Where is all the physical stuff you are talking about Downey? In imagination? As far as I can see there are only sensations. I imagine you imagine that sensations indicate something solid, physical, objective, that you can sense - but that can only be so in imagination.

downeyjr wrote:This would be the same as to believe in Paradise and Hell and God But if you like to believe in things without facts, such as God, a flying strawberry and a non-physical entity, then nothing can be done.

Opps---I not only like to believe---I do believe in God and flying strawberries in Paradise---

You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

SandyJoy wrote:
Opps---I not only like to believe---I do believe in God and flying strawberries in Paradise---

That sounds like fun to believe in SJ . I think I'd prefer that to believing that I am stuck as a somewhat dense individual in some godforsaken (unconscious) material place where there is so much conformity to consensus belief that it does not even occur to me that I have the conscious ability to believe what I am where I am.

SandyJoy wrote:
Opps---I not only like to believe---I do believe in God and flying strawberries in Paradise---

That sounds like fun to believe in SJ . I think I'd much prefer that to believing that I am stuck as a somewhat dense individual in some godforsaken (unconscious) material place where there is so much conformity to consensus belief that it does not even occur to me that I have the conscious ability to believe what I am where I am.

Yeppers! By Jove, I think you got it!---It's quite fun and its all free and available to anyone, anytime, no requirements needed---Now that's what I call Love!

Hallelujah! Hugs and Joy to you Tod!

You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

tod wrote:Where is all the physical stuff you are talking about Downey? In imagination? As far as I can see there are only sensations. I imagine you imagine that sensations indicate something solid, physical, objective, that you can sense - but that can only be so in imagination.

lol, I'm not feeling like wasting time to refute a metaphysical nihilism...more intelligent people have done that already in an elegant way But if that's what you are sticking to than fine

downeyjr wrote:
Energy is still a physical thing in the physical world, atoms are physical. Existence of a non-physical entity has not be proven nor it can be proven, but so far what we see around is all physical, thus there is no point in believing in non-physical. This would be the same as to believe in Paradise and Hell and God But if you like to believe in things without facts, such as God, a flying strawberry and a non-physical entity, then nothing can be done.

Non-physical realities may not be proven by physical means, but why should that be a shock. It's a bit like looking for non-visable light waves with a shovel. The're just not using the proper tools. Experience is such a tool. Who needs a temperature gauge to determine if a stove is hot. Even if one wasn't there to see the stove, a hand full of blisters is some evidence worth considering.

It reminds me of the guy who walked up upon another who was looking around on the ground for something. "What are you looking for?" he asked. "My keys" said the man on the ground. The kind man immediately got down on the ground and began to help, but after awhile he asked, "are you sure you lost them here?" "No" the man replied. "I didn't lose them here at all. It's just that the light is so much better here!"

Materialist scientists look where they see the familiar. They are not looking where the answers lay. But it's to be expected from those who have an underlying bias toward exclusively material answers. There was a time when the best scientists and doctors of their day would 'bleed' a patient in an attempt to cure them. They were wrong then and many of today's scientists are no less ruled by a belief and ideology that blinds them to a clear understanding of life.

Non-physical reality has been experienced countless times, and continues to be so at an ever increasing pace. These are facts that materialists try their best to explain away by imaginative theories, or simply ignore. Flying strawberries, or even the tired aspersion of spaghetti monsters, are vain attempts to insult those who hold a different view. No doubt it must feel quite special to perceive oneself so superior as to suggest such an analogy to a well research phenomena.

tod wrote:Where is all the physical stuff you are talking about Downey? In imagination? As far as I can see there are only sensations. I imagine you imagine that sensations indicate something solid, physical, objective, that you can sense - but that can only be so in imagination.

lol, I'm not feeling like wasting time to refute a metaphysical nihilism...more intelligent people have done that already in an elegant way But if that's what you are sticking to than fine

Call it what you like but I just asked a simple question and it only requires a simple answer or some honest investigation. But if you'd rather stick with your belief/imagination, that's fine.