My people will be silenced

Thursday, May 25

All the things that were written beforehand were written for our instruction.—Rom. 15:4.

Imagine the following scenes that reveal Elijah’s implicit trust in Jehovah. When Elijah informed King Ahab of Jehovah’s intention to bring about a drought, he confidently declared: “As surely as Jehovah . . . is living, . . . there will be no dew or rain except by my word!” (1 Ki. 17:1) Elijah believed that Jehovah would supply what was needed for him and for others during the drought. (1 Ki. 17:4, 5, 13, 14) He expressed confidence that Jehovah could raise a child from the dead. (1 Ki. 17:21) He had no doubt that Jehovah would send fire to consume his sacrifice on Mount Carmel. (1 Ki. 18:24, 37) When Jehovah’s time came to end the drought, even before there was any sign of rain, Elijah told Ahab: “Go up, eat and drink, for there is the sound of a heavy downpour.” (1 Ki. 18:41) Do not such accounts make us examine ourselves to see if our faith is that strong?

COMMENTARY

The writers at the Watchtower seem not to realize that Jehovah personally spoke to Elijah and told him of the coming drought. (likely through an angel) Jehovah told Elijah he would provide for him in the wilderness by means of raven caterers. Jehovah told him to go to Sidon because he commanded a widow there to supply him food. And Jehovah told Elijah to present himself to Ahab because he was going to end the drought. Elijah even experienced a supernatural demonstration of Jehovah’s power and was fed cake by a materialized angel. (The original angel food cake!)

Quite likely if God personally spoke to us and told us of the things to come we would believe it. Obviously God has not spoken in such a way to anyone in modern times. At least not yet.

It is unfortunate that the Watchtower treats Jehovah’s Witnesses like kindergarteners. It didn’t use to be that way. Perhaps it is simply part of the overall dumbing down process the Western world has been subjected to over the last few decades. But there is a definite trend over the past 10 years or so, where the Watchtower reduces prophecy and prophets into goody-goody behavioral lessons. In any case, fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it, it is not going to persist much longer.

On the one hand the Watchtower claims to be the mouthpiece of God, as was Elijah. In fact, the Watchtower claims that the two witnesses of Revelation —symbolized as Moses and Elijah in the transfiguration —were symbolically killed back in 1918! On the other hand, as visionaries Bethel is remarkably blind. (More on Elijah and the two witnesses)

By definition, visionaries and seers are able to discern the future. Certainly, the biblical prophets did that very thing. And their inspired writings are the basis for our knowing the things to come.

Since virtually all prophecy relates to Christ in some way —and most assuredly, the second coming of Jesus Christ will be the most profound and impactful event ever, the two witnesses of Revelation must be witnesses of the presence of Christ —literally seeing him when he comes alongside to minister to them, as Jesus explained in an illustrative way in the 12th chapter of Luke, when he said to his little flock: “Be dressed and ready and have your lamps burning, and you should be like men waiting for their master to return from the marriage, so when he comes and knocks, they may at once open to him. Happy are those slaves whom the master on coming finds watching! Truly I say to you, he will dress himself for service and have them recline at the table and will come alongside and minister to them.”

As of 2013 the Governing Body has come around to the notion that the master did not come to punish and reward his slaves back in 1918. Yet, in spite of now expecting a future coming of the master Jehovah’s Witnesses are still laboring under the delusion that Christ has come alongside his slaves and ministered to them, which is what the Greek word “parousia” means —to come alongside.

Of course, the delusion persists due to the deeply entrenched notion that World War One was the fulfillment of prophecy. As for the possibility of a third world war the seers of Bethel have said they don’t know. Here is a direct quote from an AWAKE article in 2009:

Could a third world war begin by accident? Could statesmen and their military advisers grossly miscalculate risks and cause the loss of millions of lives? We do not know. But we do know that this very thing has occurred. A century ago, European leaders launched their nations into the Great War, later called World War I, unaware of the magnitude of the horrors to come.

It truly is astounding that the self-aggrandizing prophet class doesn’t know what the future holds. Yet, here we are in the year 2017, with numerous simmering hotspots around the world one blunder away from engulfing the nations in a conflagration that could very quickly dwarf the horrors of both previous world wars.

The stage is now set.

“So you will stumble in broad daylight, and the prophet will stumble with you, as if it were night. And I will silence your mother. My people will be silenced, because there is no knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you from serving as my priest; and because you have forgotten the law of your God, I myself will forget your sons.” —Hosea 4:5-6

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Wow! Time to lace up my boots and fill my lamp. You got me all excited again brother.

Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

Yeah that’s correct time to lace up your boots and fill your lamps but for what? Well why not take the message of e-watchman and do it in the field service, if you are an active publisher. Truly I am telling if my field service coordinators pair me and my wife for field that itself is enough for us we stop talking about WT and talk the real truth which is found in e-watchman’s website our book study becomes different when we both are alone in the field. This matter my brother-in-law knows as he is my wife’s own fleshly brother.

Burt Reynolds

What!? They tell you who you can and cannot work with?

Brian

Hi Basavaraj. Would you go as far to tell people that the invitation is still open for all to stand up to be actual brothers (chosen) of Jesus as this is the original and only Kingdom message?

Richard Long

Call me brainwashed, but I can NEVER imagine myself chosen. Hence the mad search for a Jew who’s garment hem I may take hold. And now, if not already, you have some sense of my discomfort with my present meager level of understanding.

Brian

Hi Richard, people can or can’t imagine themselves being chosen that’s up to themselves to decide whether they are willing to “put their neck on the line”, what hasn’t helped though is the fact that the JW’s have never offered it as Jesus requested them to do, well they did early in the piece but under “the direction of the holy spirit” decided to do otherwise apparently and it looks like that line of though is still prevalent with lots of people that have been or are still associated with them, it is not for people to decide whether others are chosen from the calling, it is not even up to Jesus but Jehovah is the one that chooses.

Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

Well not really but try them to get to truth as brother Robert (bible) taught

Max

This article shows exactly what is
going on the organization these days. There is a false sense of
security…In one hand we have the whole world falling apart around
us and on the other hand the organization is telling us not to worry
because nothing will ever happen to us because we are Jehovah’s
people. According to the organization we are already living in the
spiritual paradise so nobody can say anything “bad” regarding
that we as JW are facing the imminent judgment of Jehovah and a world
wide cataclysms never ever seen before in the history of humanity.
But we all are expected to be happy all the time never mind we see
that the prophesies explained by the GB are not matching up to the
reality we are seeing all around us. The more I think of what is
coming I can not but feel sad about the brothers and sisters whom
believe that nothing will ever happen to them because they have
Jehovah’s protection. Sometimes I just want to tell them from the
platform, but the funny thing is that not even inactive witnesses
had believed me.

Huldah

I believe you, Max?.

Jehovah is weeding out those who love truth from those who love to have their ears tickled.

2Timothy4

3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome* teaching,+ but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled.*+ 4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories.

2Thess. 2:

9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan+ with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders*+ 10 and every unrighteous deception+ for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie,+ 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness

Yuri Fisher

Hello Max
All of us here know what is going to happen soon. And we all sorry for our spiritual brothers that they are living in false expectations. But I think they like it this way. Just like in days of Jeremiah. False prophets told people that nothing will be bad. But at the end Jeremiah was right. And false prophets were dead. The same today we who know the truth will stay alive and our brothers will be dead if they go after WT. This is goal of Satan. To kill as much as possible. So brothers and sisters will bring death for themselves by obeying WT. We must flee from false prophets of WT.

Max

Hi Yuri, how things going in your side of the woods? Always amazes me to talk to brothers from so far away as Israel. Hope everything is going well

Yuri Fisher

Yes I live in the most dangerous place. Israel is in the ring of fire. All over around us war. But here is relatively quiet. We as congregation are safe for now. I live in Netanya. It is nice city with 250000 population. I was 10 years in English congregation. But now we moved to Russian one. We talk to people here about WW3 coming soon. This is not what JW believe. But I and my wife do believe. So when we preach we always say about real situation in the world. Personally I do not rely on JW information about the future. I believe what Robert King says. It makes perfect sense to me. But my wife still emotionally connected to WT and she do not want to leave JW organization. But soon we will be forced to decide. If we will want to survive physically and spiritually we will have to abandon JW. Maybe JW will be destroyed by coming Jesus Christ as a Judge. And all who will not go after JW will be organized in different way.

Isn’t that true! What I wonder about is why we see it and they apparently not?

Max

I think that deeply they do feel that something is not right. But after years of indoctrination into a culture of never to question anything but to accept whatever comes from Bethel few would dare to see thing differently. Remember we never ever question the GB that is the unspoken law. I can see how challenging it could be to really even allow themselves to think differently. I know it was for me

The Raven

Given the right impetus, say a serious shakedown, they might snap to. Well maybe some of them.

It’s sad. I know. King’s frustration with them is palpable in the way he writes. So is yours, Max.
BTW, glad to meet you!

Max

Same here Raven! May Jehovah bless you!

Jamie Mac

HI Raven. I hope I don’t start the ball rolling with this comment. I just wish you would refer to Robert as Brother Robert or simply Robert as king sounds disrespectful.

Beverly kenyon

Noticed that. Rude to call someone by their surname when you’ve come into their ‘home’.

See, more WT dogma thrown to the ground. We’re all just people after all. But I must say you have been a gracious host, and recognition for that does not seem improper.

Beverly kenyon

Well I hope you don’t mind, and I know you’ve just written that ‘Brother’ sounds too formal but I don’t feel comfortable calling you ‘King’ or e-w or watchman, I feel it’s disrespectful so if you don’t mind I’m gonna keep being respectful. I also like RK, so might occasionally refer to you by your initials…which is still respectful but a softer than being formal. Over here you call anyone by their last name, you’re up for getting a mouthful off them as its rude and bad mannered, so yeah, a person would have a problem with that.

Definitely rude to me anyways. Over here usually if you hear your last name it’s followed by yes sir coach!!
When someone calls me by by last name at work I’ll ask them if their a coach on the weekends……..or military!

ive hear in some cultures its not respectful to use parents name. just another traditional Satanic superstition to make it look as if people are doing something wrong the same as using our father in heavens name

Beverly kenyon

You’re right DA, everything has a name and a purpose and I was thinking this very thing today. Until the New a World that Jehovah promises and we ask resurrected ones who knew the correct pronounciation of Jehovah’s name, using Jehovah will do as Brother King brought out in one of his recent articles, and it’s better than no name and it must be okay as it would’ve faded away and we’d just be saying, God which as we know and was taught is just a title. Everything is in a name and Jehovah points this out many times….for the sake of my name he says.

Hey Max, now you’re making me miss the KH as I use to love those Kingdon songs even though some of them were like dirges! Used to love singing them and the lyrics had such meaning sometimes I used to get a bit teary! That was really lovely Max and really kind of you to post that. Why were they all dressed in black? Very dreary and depressing. Might listen to that in the morning when I’m making my morning coffee. Thanks again Max.

Max

Yes some are. But many have so much meaning that they have the power to reach the heart. I love singing the songs with the friends and when I’m going to work in the morning. Many of the songs are like prayer of supplication to Jehovah and they make your heart fill with love. I’m glad you like them. Let’s sing along sister! ?

Beverly kenyon

I will singing along tomorrow when I’m making my morning coffee, I’ll put it on. I agree, they are are like a prayer. And I’ll think of you singing along as well Max. ???

Jehovah has made Robert a watchmen. that much is for sure.
obvious.
by extention any suporting the truth and Jehovah’s chosen watchman
are watchmen themselves, including you. “Be dressed and ready and have your lamps burning,…”

DA, that’s fantastic! I’m with Richard in his words to you! It’s those sort of thoughts you come out with that we can relate to, cos who hasn’t thought, I wonder what Jehovahs voice sounds like that makes me love you to bits! First of all, it’s just the best to ‘hear’ your voice again just like Richard brilliantly puts it, he’s really good with words, it’s great to feel you’re upbeat despite recent events but please DA, can you just sort something out regarding what we want to do for you as that hasn’t changed. We want to action things and get it done! But for now, it’s wonderful to see you back on Ewatchman! ShasSha has also been asking after you as she was very concerned over your welfare…love ShaSha. Hope her posts reached you as I know you never had a phone! Oh, DA, it doesn’t have to be that way for you. Let’s just get this thing moving!??

DA, I truly believe that. Jehovah has made Brother King a Watchman. The actual Watchtower is an advantagous position to be on the lookout but it’s the actual Watchman who is stationed there who sounds out the warning and Jehovah can use the role of an actual Watchman to teach. And Brother King has been functioning in the role of a real live Watchman teaching and warning. So, yeah, DA you’re right there.

Burt Reynolds

From the time I went to kindergarten at 3 years I was known by my surname. When I went to boarding school for 6 years I was known as D22 by staff and ‘lowest of the low, scum of the earth’ by the prefects. When I was in the army I was called 22241895. Oddly, when a witness, I was not referred to as anything, or Sonny, or Boy, which really got up my nose! When at work, staff had a variety of names. I seem to have done quite well with Burt!

Beverly kenyon

Wow, Burt, they were brutal in those days. I’m sorry but if some teacher was calling my kid by his or her surname I’d have to have words or get my kid outta there! That’s a no no for me. And then you became a number but I can understand about the prefects as prefects were just jumped up bullying little rats! Never went to boarding school but we used to love running and hiding from prefects and just generally being a pain to them! And that must’ve been difficult to remember that long number name when you were in the army. Not doubting you were called a fair few names at work! Lol. Wonder what some of them could’ve been! No, don’t answer that! But I think Burt or Burty as you were briefly known by suits brilliantly!

I am truly honored to be called “brother” by those who know my disfellowshipped status among Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Beverly kenyon

Brother King, Jehovah never expelled you, MAN did, according to their man made rules but you went on to be a faithful Watchman teaching ones like me real Bible truths and enabling me to uncover and discover things I never knew about in God’s Word and I would love to list a few of those things but the list is endless! So for me, I feel comfortable calling you Brother King as its the respectful thing to do regarding your position.

Richard Long

To Robert:
She has a point. For better or worse, you have become to us, if not a teacher, a guide, and if not a guide, the watchman on the section of wall near our houses. You cannot escape the fact that you mean something to us and we cannot escape the fact that we must wear as lightly around your neck as possible.

robert i am honered to call you my spiritual brother you have done a great deal for us all.

Psalm 133:1
133 Look! How good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!

The Raven

Rude…how? Everyone I know uses surnames when speaking about others. Too many brothers, Bobs, Roberts..it was easier to sort out. I don’t know about your experiences but it IS a formal way of addressing folks here. Unless they say so it was considered forward to address people we just met by their first names. And brother just doesn’t do it for me anymore than it did at KH. If he doesn’t mind I’m sticking with King.

Beverly kenyon

Errrrr. It was me that said it was rude to call Brother King, ‘king’, not Jamie! Jamie thought it was disrespectful to address him by his surname. I said it was rude!

The Raven

King is fine with it and I am NOT going to pursue this any further., We have bigger fish to fry. Thank you for both your thoughts on this matter. anyway. 🙂

Richard Long

It’s all going to be OK.

Huldah

You were right when you said recently that we will survive the final test not by trickery but by faith.

To me, it is the same with the real truth.
It will not be by force but only by a heartfelt love of truth that we accept it.

Luke 22:66,67
66 And when it became day, the assembly of elders of the people, both chief priests and scribes, gathered together,+ and they led him into their San′he·drin hall and said: 67 “If you are the Christ, tell us.”+ But he said to them: “Even if I told you, you would not believe it at all.

Huldah

I think that’s the test. It’s extremely painful to wake up to the real truth.
Most people choose a delusion over facing a painful reality.

It shows that we really LOVE truth when we face it despite the difficulty.

Huldah

The same can be said for the “truth” in general.
It’s holy spirit and a love for the truth.

2Thess 2:10
because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie,+

Jer 5:31
New Living Translation
the prophets give false prophecies, and the priests rule with an iron hand. Worse yet, my people like it that way! But what will you do when the end comes?

Richard Long

I’m one inactive witness who believes you.

Max

Hi Richard, I do not believe you are inactive! You come to meetings here don’t you not? We are all here pretty much everyday enjoying the excellent food Brother Kings prepares for us. You have defended Jehovah’s teachings here, and you do show your love of God. Now let me ask you. Do you witness to people? Maybe informally… if your answer is yes… you my brother are not an inactive witness.

The Raven

That’s a good way to look at it.

Jamie Mac

Hi Max, you are beginning to bloom with your comments. I’ve just added you to my already long list of folks on this sight I can learn from 🙂

p.s. I don’t really keep a list but you know what I mean 🙂

Marisa Gomez

I feel the same feeling but although I’m an active Jehovah witness ,,they would disfellowship me
Or maybe would see me like a weird person if I speak. They do not want to listen the truth as in the world
Sorry,,,,my english is not so good.

The Raven

It’s going to be a serious shock spiritually and psychologically. They too may find themselves in the same boat as the rest of the world’s religious followers, feeling betrayed. But I do have hope that even though JWs don’t openly say anything in KH, they have a feeling all is not right and will govern themselves accordingly. I know even some of those who would not speak out demurely acknowledged the problems.

Like my neighbors who insist we could win any war, but they are also steadily storing ammo and food. 😉

Jamie Mac

Welcome Raven, I was going to welcome you in the previous article but Robert closed off commenting before I had a chance.

I personally have learned so much from this site and there are so may wonderful brothers and sisters here. I think you may already noticed that by now.

Anyway welcome again 🙂

The Raven

Thank you Jaime. 🙂

Burt Reynolds

Your comment on the other article being closed off: did you notice the title of this article in respect of that? I think Robert was making a comment. He might be subtle, but he can’t hide it too well.

Richard Long

I think he was putting an end to the discord.

Jamie Mac

Coincidence Burt I think. 🙂 Only Robert can confirm and he probably won’t.

Huldah

Good to have you here, Raven.
You add a lot of great insight.
I thought you were an old timer here as I am a newbie and don’t know everyone.
Sure like your name. I love everything ravens symbolize especially the fact that they are brilliant mischievous birds.

The Raven

Thanks Huldah. I flew into a raucous affair here several days ago and fell in love with the lively atmosphere! Hahaha!

Huldah

Sounds about right for a raven, lol.

Daisy d

Hahaha!
What a gift we have from Robert to express ourselves so freely
here using our independent thinking and language, our individual unique human-ness.
Its great to no longer be ‘in’ with the in-group far away from the dominating group-think!

Max

Yes indeed. It is great for sure. How are you doing Daisy?

Daisy d

Thanks for asking, I’m doing well despite it being 5am and I’m wide awake!
Will probably nod off later into my afternoon tea.
Didn’t know about group-think till Robert mentioned it. Makes for a very interesting read on Wikipedia if you care to check it out, especially as we can apply it so aptly to WT and what bad effects on our minds it has when we allow ourselves to conform to it.
I love animals, mainly dogs and
my grand daughter has an Akita, its a beauty and so docile around us humans.
Posse Comitatus is a new one on me mentioned by Richard so I’m off to wiki myself now.

Jamie Mac

Hi Daisy, Posse Comitatus was a new one for me as well :-). Like you I had to get the definition as well.

Daisy d

We’re never too old to learn!
I was telling my beautiful boy that I didn’t know how to think till I was 70! And that’s the truth.
He said, “I’d keep quiet about that if I were you mum”
But I must say, my education began the moment hubby showed me God’s name in his Masonic green Bible. We knew there was a spirit world as his mother’s husband was a medium, so when a darling sister knocked at his door, she’s still alive, and said; “they’re not dead people he’s speaking to, they’re wicked spirit creatures” hubby latched onto her straight away and started studying. We smoked our way through in those days! From then on its been a bit of an uphill struggle and my biggest regret to date is not having enough to time to myself to look up facts of interest to me.
Oh to have my life over! I wouldn’t waste a moment of it!
What would I not do differently!

Jamie Mac

You are never to old to learn, how true. One day when we are both 20,000 thousand years old we will still be learning, probably !!!!! 🙂

Beverly kenyon

Love this post! So interesting!

Richard Long

Probably a uniquely American term, but then it is not. Julius Ceaser violated the spirit of posse comitatus when he brought his legions across the Rubicon into Rome. I think.

Burt Reynolds

With what will they govern themselves accordingly without accurate knowledge ? It can only be by faith alone that any of us will survive. I see such little knowledge in myself and such a dependence on trust in those that dispense the word, and in developing faith in the outcome of that trust, that I truly wonder how we can know enough to enable survival. It has to be something far, far deeper and spiritual, and applied on the basis of that which each individual can grasp. The majority of witnesses believe the watchtower lie, and as you point out, only have a sense of feeling as to something not being quite right. One could assume therefore that it is a love of righteousness that will be the guiding factor. I surely hope so, because that’s just about all I have as a guide.

The Raven

I believe that we all have the capacity to do what needs to be done in bad situations. But only few act on it. This comes down to some serious self examination. It’s the same with people who support other religious institutions, political parties etc. Collectively they take a dive, but individuals among them aren’t the lemmings we assume them all to be. They are much like us. I do not believe they are all completely stupid. It’s faith and a love of righteousness, as you said and may I add, a good measure of trust in Jehovah when men fail us.

I have never really completely been dependent on any of those who “dispensed the word”, so to speak. I measure it constantly and if it makes sense, then, yes. I know I’m not the only one walking around with a good BS meter either. Everyone here is too. King included.

The majority have never actually known 100% of the truth in ANY org, even more so in spiritual matters. I’d be willing to guess that maybe even when silenced and dark a good number among them will see why. We are told to persevere and keep our heads up even under test. Many know that starts with His house. But Jehovah will help them even as he scourges them.

I do understand and appreciate the serious extent of the damage done by the GB in recent years and their insistence on being the only authority, effectively silencing the anointed within the org. who have NO say in their decisions. I find it a sad commentary on the GB to arrogantly believe that they can do this. Very Pharisaical of them. The anointed are still anointed, inside or outside.

Look what’s happened since. I’d say many on the outside and a good number on the inside are probably WAITING for this and have steadily been preparing for it. In the end, our trust is in Jah.

Beverly kenyon

The MOL’s main target is the Anointed the ones who are called, anything to scupper Jehovah’s Kingdom and the gb have revealed through actions and word they are the MOL, them and the corporate ones running the show behind the scenes and starting with Rutherford they have been expelling anointed ones from KH’s. Satan lost the main battle concerning Jesus and his Apostles, he lost big time then so now he’s coming after the remaining Anointed with full force. Your regular JW’s are collateral damage, his main target is the Anointed. He knows where to find the remaining ones, especially when they’re the only ones partaking at the Memorial…they stand out blatantly so it’s something to said for everyone to partake just like Jesus instructed us to. In my opinion!! Loving some of what you’re saying Raven, as its common sense, some brilliant posts from you!

The Raven

Very nice! Thank you!

Beverly kenyon

You’re welcome.

Brian

Hi Beverly, indeed everyone should be partaking, it is up to Jehovah to direct Jesus and the angels to sort out who is who, definitely not up to man (who cannot direct even his own step) to be taking it upon himself to be doing it. I wouldn’t give to much credit to these so called “anointed ones” as actually being anointed into a definitive select group, do they really think Satan is that stupid, he might be a lot of things but stupid ain’t one of them, when he is cast out of heaven to the earth he is said to “flood the earth’ to kill the woman, why would he need to do that if they are in plain sight?? They are hidden from him and he will be in a rage to get the remaining ones. If all he had to do was rock up to the kingdom halls and entice those that were the only partakers it would be a cake walk to get at least a couple of them, hand them the winning lotto ticket see how that pans out!
The more I think about this scenario of a select group before Jesus turns up to more insidious and crooked it looks. Funny how all of the “Christian groups” on the planet think they are “IT”, talk about thinking like man/Satan!

Richard Long

Can I infer from this statement you think we might begin to imagine that in every sect of Christendom, there is someone like Robert, indicting each his own “religion” for their apostasy?

Sure. But to do that would be to leave them and become a JW. Paul comes to mind.

Brian

I can’t see why not, Jesus hasn’t judged or inspected the congregations so everything is still “fair game”, open slather, call it what you like, the whole thing still runs under the same apostasy that started before John died, there is no special apostasy for any particular group, just variations of the same thing.

Richard Long

I have determined that you cannot see period.

On the front burner is the notion that here you have been welcomed and made yourself comfortable in this place of refuge, an extension of his home where Robert is our host, and expressed no regard for that hospitality. When DA cautioned you about that one point of basic decorum one might expect to uphold, your reply was “DA, if he kicks me out he kicks me out”. I would find this inexcusable were Robert Satan’s ugly nephew. Do you not find him a gracious and generous host?

Second, whether Robert is anointed or not, he has proven to be a world class scholar with tremendous insight to prophesy and a formidable command of historical and contemporary detail and context. Of course he is not flawless, nor the absolute authority on all things scripture, AND HE DOES NOT CLAIM TO BE! He IS meticulous in his desire to direct credit to Jehovah and away from himself. I would say that likely even he literally does not recognize how superior his work is to academia. Your refusal to accept the loving direction from both Kevin and DA to the archives of his writing has cost you dearly. When you say you have read Robert’s works, I find myself unable to believe you given the absolutely sound scriptural backing and secular citations of his treatments and your disregard for them. Do you not find his work to be thorough, accurate, scripturally sound, and properly cited?

Third, you seem to be attempting to bait Robert into a black hole of debate. I can promise you he wont fall for it as I have allowed you to believe I have. I am an idiot with nothing better to do with my time than to let you think you are confusing me. Robert is busy, having for some many years made it both his vocation and avocation to undo the violence done to Jehovah’s word by the WT. In doing so, he has established the truth beyond refute and free of the delusion you accuse him of retaining. He need not argue with you because he already has a stated position on WHATEVER red herring you want to toss in the ring.It will be in the archive, USE IT!

For just one example, You have tried to have us chase you around regarding the “man of lawlessness” and the anointed. You were directed yo the following essay:

Had you read this essay with an open honest heart, you would have had resolved for yourself both intellectually and spiritually your “man of lawlessness has been here since Paul’s day” assertion. It also debunks your “the anointed are everywhere” assertion. Christendom is not apostate because they never hosted any anointed to apostatize. Rather, they like the rest of false religion likely never having garnered the slightest interest of the creator save an occasional sigh of disgust.

The real question is who IS the creator paying attention to.

Just as in the ancient world, typical Israel was the only people Jehovah knew:
Amos 3:1, 2: “Hear this word that Jehovah has spoken concerning you, O
people of Israel, concerning the whole family that I brought up out of the land of
Egypt: 2 ‘You alone I have known out of all the families of the earth.+ That is
why I will call you to account for all your errors.+
So must the same be true in our modern day – we must seek to identify the “prophetic anti-typical Israel” of scripture. IF we are, in fact, in or “approaching the season” of the parousia, which we nearly all agree we are, some “people” must whether intentionally or not, reflect the characteristics of said “people”.

I remain convinced (and yes, Brian, delusion residual free)] that no ‘people” other than JW’s can show a history that even closely resembles the prophetic pattern for anti-typical Israel in all its apostate glory, let alone matches it so exactly as when “de-delusionized” by Robert’s treatment of the material. With respect, it is a mistake to interchange the terms “Spiritual Israel” and “prophetic anti-typical Israel” and even more of a mistake to believe Robert is doing it. You are right, but hardly unique, to redress the WT for doing it.

While they may both be rooted in the same body or even be ultimately made up of many of the same individuals, they do not coexist, but rather are states of condition of the same body at two distinct junctures in time. The “prophetic anti-typical Israel” are for better or worse the congregation of the anointed since the anointing resumed and the apostasy immediately resurfaced in the modern era (I will not hazard a date, that would just be WTish, but it did begin with the highly imperfect and occasionally downright silly Russell et.al,). Meanwhile, Spiritual Israel, a term we probably should not even use, as it derives by man from the “Israel of God” a term used only once in the bible
Galatians 6:15,16 15 For neither is circumcision anything nor is
uncircumcision,+ but a new creation is.+ 16 As for all those who walk orderly by
this rule of conduct, peace and mercy be upon them, yes, upon the Israel of
God.+
to denote “a new creation” , the true heirs to the Kingdom, present only peri and post parousia, when fully sealed, revealed, martyred, resurrected, crowned and ready to throw down on the satanic hordes.

So, in short, you are finished here as a teacher. If your heart is honest and you are seeking real answers to your questions, or to voice your uncertainties, then remain. Robert will be the final arbiter, but for me, being the guy that “puts it out there” is acceptable, as long as “it” isn’t a dung smeared phallus in our faces like “everyone should partake of the emblems”.

You will always be loved. Many of us are already attached to you and, what’s more, respect you for the very fine mind you have demonstrated the use of. Please be worthy of that respect.

Brian

Really, I can’t see period!? I tell you what Richard, I will just bow out of this little group even though this site is in the “public arena”, maybe my questions and unwillingness to just accept or just shut up mean I don’t belong here in this club…see ya.

Richard Long

What??? Wasn’t I polite and respectful?

Beverly kenyon

Hi Brian, well I for one will miss you and your posts. Some of what you wrote was simple common sense, plain talking. You weren’t trying lure anyone away, you just presented your thoughts and let the person make their mind up. I know for sure I don’t want to be part of ‘group think’. I’ll listen to what a lot here on this forum have to say as everyone brings something to the table and there’s some amazingly insightful people here and I’ll sometimes think about what someone has put forward for days and I’ll read the relevant scriptures and refer to sites like Perimeno and Baruq for some other input then I’ll make my mind up just like I did when I came to my conclusion regarding the Memorial. Brother King put forward a strong argument when he covered the subject in April as did Arvid, I read the account in the Bible and went to see what Perimeno and Baruq had to see on the matter, I prayed hard to Jehovah to help me understand exactly what Jesus said, I told him how I needed to get the matter right to then do the right thing and believe the right thing and I now my opinion on the matter. It’s what I believe in my heart and I won’t defend what I believe as its my own belief and others can believe what they want, that’s up to them. Just because we have differing opinions on the matter doesn’t mean to say I think any less of that person and I will not bend to pressure and passive aggression and compromise my opinions just to fit in. You were an okay guy Brian!

Richard Long

Beverly, I will miss him too. I genuinely like and respect him, and I hope he returns. I “spoke” from my heart and my head the truth as I know it regarding the situation as I see it, as we all, including Brian have been privileged to do here. I am forever aware of my fallibility and limited insight, and therefore always open to correction. If you believe I have been harsh unfair, impolite, overstepped a boundary, or am just plain wrong, you (and any or all) are encouraged to say so here publicly and I submit to your scrutiny. You are loved and held dear by me, if that is of any value.

Beverly kenyon

Can I just say Richard, in my eyes you can do no wrong and it was only yesterday I was telling a witness how brilliant I thought you are and what a fantastic father you are to your girls and how you talk to them and how you love your wife, those things shine through. There’s a band of Brothers on this site and if I was to list why I think each and everyone was fantastic, the list would be as long as that post of your’s to Brian! Lol.? Brian’s on that list btw, I thought a lot of Brian and whatever you said to him well, that was between the two of you and Brian’s an Aussie, they’re dead hard as nails and I’m quite sure he can stand up for himself and I’m not naive to think that disagreements won’t pop up but I don’t like arguing about religion as that’s how wars start, I believe what I believe and that’s it for me. So long’s I’m good with Jehovah and the King, Jesus Christ that’s all I’m bothered about and try to do the right thing towards my fellow human being and look after my family. Your words to me really do mean a lot Richard but there’s no way I thought anything about you and Brian having words as that was between you’s two and I respect both of you I just didn’t expect Brian to burn off! Miss him already just I’d like I’d miss you if you took off, so don’t do that please.

Richard Long

I also thought I was continuing a discussion and not ending one.

Beverly kenyon

Yeah, I thought that too so was surprised when Brian went. We have to forgive each other up to 70 times and more or is it 70 times and more, anyway, I know that we’re forgiven by Brian already as he comes across as a very confident chilled sort of guy. We’ll just carry on as before.

Daisy

Yes. I believe you have been harsh, unfair, impolite, overstepped a boundary and are just plain wrong and thanks for encouraging me to say so, here, publicly …But don’t take that personally because nothing I say and I do is about you, its all about my own reality lol. Hope that cheered you up dear man you!

Richard Long

I live to serve. Lets make this “tie Richard to the whipping post and have at because he will not take it personally” day in honor of our friend Brian, who we hope will return soon. 8>D

Daisy

Wanted to reply so much sooner but it’s been quite a demanding day!
Just want to say I’m sad to see anybody leave and hope they don’t stay gone too long.
Btw…Brian still IS an okay guy!

Beverly kenyon

So true Daisy, I don’t like it when ANYONE leave this site and you’re right Brian is an okay guy. Lol. Miss that guy. That’s how I felt about KB when he disappeared. I couldn’t believe it but what a fantastic surprise when popped back up! Really think a lot of KB and with a lot of respect. Hope you’re taking care of that poorly arm of your’s Daisy…that’s very worrying.

Daisy

No worries with the arm as I asked doc on Friday if he could attach my hand to my elbow should amputation be in question. Hah That’s a joke! He didn’t laugh either.
Seems to be healing nicely without the skin graft living, infection saw the end of it so I have a gaping hole down to the bone but managing really well with it as it’s not painful. You are more worried than I am which is sweet of you. Thanks.

Beverly kenyon

That sounds horrific! Don’t know how you cope as I would be hysterical! Drama queen coming out! Lol. Your Doc is a miserable bunny cos that’s quite funny! Just hope you get sorted.

The Raven

I still have questions up for you in your other comments if you’d care to reply. I replied to your comment stating what you believe and am interested in seeing what you have to say.

Beverly kenyon

Hi Brian, ever since you wrote those thoughts of your’s, I’m inclined to agree with some of those points especially about Satan flooding the earth to kill the woman, trying to root them out. Yeah, most Christian groups identify themselves as the ‘special ones’ but having said that I do believe Brother King about there being 7000 of these ‘special ones’ existing when it all goes off just like in Elihah’s time when Jehovah reserved 7000 for himself, he wanted these for himself as their hearts were right towards him in a nation of apostates, he knew who they were, maybe they didn’t know each other and neither did Jezebel knew who they were and it wasn’t for a lack of trying as one of her high official, Obadiah, had to hide for a few years, 100 prophets in caves where they were fed on meagre rations and apart from the support of each other during that distressful time for them, they would’ve prayed so hard to Jehovah. During that time in the 10 tribe kingdom of Israel, worship of Jehovah was gone and people flocked to the temples of Baal, false worship brought in by Jezebel from her pagan roots, they worshipped Baal for success, and for material gain very much like most people today who put their trust in money, materialism, success and prestige. So in that sea of false worship there was these 7000 individuals staying loyal to Jehovah and he knew who they were because of their heart condition towards him.

Brian

Indeed Beverly, Jehovah knew who they were, Elijah on the other hand didn’t, he didn’t even know they existed until he was told as he though he was the only one, it is a good example as there are people (the watchtower and all that believe what they say) think they are the only ones!

Beverly kenyon

Yeah, Brian, poor Elijah thought he was the only one until he was told of these other ones and when you think about it that was quite a high number, quite a few and I’ve never believed JW’s are the only ones and when Brother King highlighted points regarding Elijah in the book of Kings and the situation going on at that time I had my confirmation.

Richard Long

This does no more than to show that Elijah, as precious to and used by Jehovah as he was, had a perspective very limited in scope, as we ALL do.

Brian

He thought he was the only one doing “Gods will” or work and being faithful, it suggests reams Richard!

Richard Long

and he was also magnificently mistaken, the blind man feeling up an elephants trunk and declaring it a snake, AS WE ALL TEND TO BE!

You really don’t know what you are talking about. Of course Satan knows who is anointed. If he didn’t he would not be able to tempt and test them, which of course he does. Furthermore, if the Devil did not know who the true sons of God are he would not be able to sow his counterfeit weed seeds among them. If Satan did not know who had been called he would not be able to place his man of lawless in their midst. And, of course, if the true anointed were not among Jehovah’s Witnesses presently the petty con men who try to prey upon Jehovah’s Witnesses would not promote the idea that everyone should partake.

Richard Long

Is this to say that the demons can recognize the annointed on sight, just as they did Jesus while he was a man?

Now it happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a servant girl with a spirit, a demon of divination, met us. She supplied her masters with much profit by fortune-telling.This girl kept following Paul and us and crying out with the words: “These men are slaves of the Most High God and are proclaiming to you the way of salvation.” She kept doing this for many days. Finally Paul got tired of it and turned and said to the spirit: “I order you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And it came out that very hour.
Acts 16: 16-18.

Now it happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a servant girl with a spirit, a demon of divination,met us. She supplied her masters with much profit by fortune-telling. This girl kept following Paul and us and crying out with the words: “These men are slaves of the Most High God and are proclaiming to you the way of salvation.”She kept doing this for many days. Finally Paul got tired of it and turned and said to the spirit: “I order you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And it came out that very hour.Acts 16:16-18,

Brian

When did this separation of the “chosen ones” take place for a specifically separate group to be identified from all that have been called? Scripturally it looks like this would take place post the great tribulation, has that already happened?

Huldah

I agree Satan knows.
I think he knows who has a leaning toward righteousness from childhood even.

I have too many personal examples of Joseph like children who were strangely singled out for persecution and abuse by even their parents or siblings. Witness family usually.

The longer I live to see how things play out, the more I feel Satan starts attacking the righteous very young so he knows very early.

That would be a can of worms too far for this site! There are two streams to life as the bible points out….’it is not what goes into a body that defiles it, but what comes out’, and so I have little idea whether my choices to the stimuli of life are mine or provoked in me by Satan in a bid to separate me from my search for Jehovah. I have choice after all. We all do. We are all intrinsically prone to do wrong and don’t really need Satan to help….though yes, he can and does target people I’m sure. I think the only ‘righteous’ part of my life was childhood innocence and I clearly recall a spontaneous affinity with the creator when I was about 7 years old, but by the time I was ten and had started boarding school, I remember praying every night in the hope that ‘God’ (as he was known to me then) would not slaughter me for being the sinner that I was according to our school vicar ( who also stole my father’s Rolex from me to ‘repair’ it). I met Jehovah again at 17, and spent the next few decades having my hopes and aspirations in him simultaneously raised and dashed by the watchtower, before being finally crushed by them around 1983, and my wandering since then. The only part of which that Satan did not have in my life insofar as faith was concerned, was washing up here. So IF he was concerned with me, he has kept me isolated from realising my feelings of worship for nearly all my life. That does not make me righteous I hasten to add, and throughout all life’s trials, no better or worse than everyone else’s , each according to their own sense of what happens, I would say that Satan could take the worship of Jehovah out of people, but he cannot take the sense of ‘rightness’ away…..however true…or not… people are to that response in themselves. The sense of worship and righteousness, and all that it entails is an inherent gift from Jehovah to each of us. It is not ours, but only ours to exercise if we choose to plumb the depth of it. (There, I have kept it brief. Think yourself lucky! )

Huldah

You know I’d be a giant hypocrite if I wasn’t joking about you being wordy. Have you seen my posts? Lol

Your post makes me wish I had all the answers so I could fix it.

I read Perimeno’s life story. Some similarities to what I know of yours.

The organization is a mirage. Sadly, for now, it seems to exist for the same reason the popular group in high school does, to make you feel like you’re nothing cause you don’t fit in with it.

It’s Satan’s world, so the “somethings” are really the “nothings” in disguise and the ” nothings” are where the substance really is. Even in the “truth”

1Cor.1
27 but God chose the foolish things of the world to put the wise men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world to put the strong things to shame;+ 28 and God chose the insignificant things of the world and the things looked down on, the things that are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,+

For twenty years, I’ve called it the “false nucleus”. ” Stay in the nucleus of the organization” MY @$$!!!
Why? So Jehovah can bring a weightier judgement on me armageddon?

Naaa… I ‘ choose to be ill treated with the true people of God rather than have the temporary enjoyment of’ human glory.

Heb 11:25

Beverly kenyon

This post is brilliant for all the obvious reasons!

The Raven

I got a real problem with this line of thought. I give the devil a lot more credit than that. Are you willing to risk losing out on the promises by masquerading as anointed?
Given we aren’t sure about all of his methods do you really think we can fool him?
I certainly don’t.

Brian

I think this “anointed thing” is being overplayed somewhat, it would appear that there would be many people anointed for all different purposes and not to specifically determine who is to be ultimately chosen by God to be his son/s.
Raven, I am not masquerading as anything, I am just stating the fact that Jesus asked his followers to “go out and make disciples of people from all of the nations”, it is not up to man to decide who is and who isn’t going to be chosen and ultimately anointed in death to be sons of God. The calling is just that a calling, you couldn’t be chosen without being called.
The confusion here has been created by the Watchtowers insistence that they were separating the “sheep and the goats” which they have said for years they are no longer doing.

The Raven

But the scripture itself warns about this, not the WT. Forget what they say for the moment and consider that. Granted, we don’t know for certain WHO they are but we know there are anointed, correct? I take all claims with a grain of salt. I seek out truth NO MATTER THE SOURCE. King’s insight is excellent, if I can say that, concerning scriptural matters. So was the knowledge I saw from others, But he has surpassed them and I place great value in accurate knowledge and insight I had not seen before.
His claim to be anointed is NONE OF MY BUSINESS. In that we agree?
The WT separation of the sheep and the goats is BS since they disfellowshipped ANOINTED and many, many other sheep who disagreed with their convoluted views on prophecy. Also correct?

The scripture clearly states only those who have that calling may partake, right? It does NOT make allowance for those of us who do not have that calling.
But my issue with the statement you made about partaking remains. I will not. I agree with you that God knows His own, but so does the devil and the demons. We aren’t going to trip him up at all. This test we face can’t be won by trickery or slight of hand. It must be won by faith.

And yes, the WTO and the GB are full of it. We can agree on that.

Brian

Raven, can you tell me when this specific separation started and finished to have all of the “anointed chosen ones” in one place, i.e. under the Watchtowers direction? The message has never changed since Jesus was on the earth so when did this change? When Satan over-sowed the wheat with weeds it did two things, it mingled wheat with weeds so that they were indistinguishable to all looking on and in his smugness blended them so he cannot identify them also. Do you believe that the wheat has been separated or the sheep and goats or when was the dragnet lowered to catch all sorts of fish to be separated out because if you do then the kingdom has already arrived.
Being anointed doesn’t actually mean you are chosen as the anointing would/will be for all sorts of reasons to conduct what Jehovah wants us to do. The calling, when you first heard of Jesus and you reacted to it is not the “calling”?
Do you know anything about the 1935 sealing?

The Raven

That’s a trap and I’m not foolish enough to step in it. It’s not finished. I never said it was under the WTs direction. They are identifiable by their words and deeds, not so much so whether they partake, given the margin for error and well…impostors and outright insanity. I do NOT see any evidence for the separation to be complete either and NO the kingdom has NOT arrived.
Do you believe that ANY of the apostles and disciples were anointed? I have to ask that at this point. Do you doubt that we have ANY anointed among us at all?
I know about the alleged 1935 sealing and frankly, why are you trying to direct this back to the WT, again? I do not agree with that assertion any more than I can agree with the 1914 idea.

What do you think about the 7,000 or the two witnesses?

Brian

I am not trying to trap you, what for? 1935 started what you are still believing today in that there is a separate group of people amongst the congregations of God even before Jesus arrives to separate such ones, no trap, this just scriptural as it’s written.

The Raven

Why are you still beating that poor horse? I already told you, It doesn’t matter what they started doing then. They got some things right, like 144,000 ONLY go to heaven and some things wrong. That separation began WAAAAY before the WTO came along.

The Raven

To be concise, the WTO was the instrument by which a great work was done in bringing the good news to humanity. The basics are still with them. It is truth no matter what. But they deviated badly from their duties and became a repository for evil men to manipulate and deceive the followers.
Jehovah is God, Jesus Christ His son and the Holy Spirit his force.
We have among us a special group who impart knowledge and help guide us. That is obvious to me.
They are not sealed. It is not finished. The dates and times are inconsequential given the tremendous scope of the endeavor to bring us all into the path of righteousness.
You seem to be pushing the idea that all of us are anointed and can get to heaven. That blows ALL of Christ’s words out of the water. Or am I wrong? Do you believe that only 144,000 go?

Touche! That’s what I’m talking about! Many thanks.
The ONLY people who have this are found among JWs, whether they remain in good standing with the WT or not. They KNOW Jehovah.

Brian

Hi Raven, I am not pushing the idea that all are anointed, and even those that are finally “chosen” are only anointed in death. I am not and have never suggested that all are going to heaven either but what I am suggesting is what is written about being called to Jesus (“many are called but few are chosen”) is that all that put their faith is Jesus have been called and out of all of those that have put their faith in Jesus Jehovah selects, preselects whatever you want to call it out of these. I don’t believe the WT gave anybody anything more than what is actually written, well with the exception of the upside down WW1 scenario.
Indeed there are many good people amongst JW’s as there are amongst other the rest of the human population but if you go back and look at the foundation and the motivation of the original founding and those that followed they were always of “evil men”, they never crept in, they were always there, you know “wolves dressed as sheep” no matter how pious they may have presented themselves to be, “Judge” Rutherford is a “shining example”.
If we just take for example one belief that everybody associated with them has had , me included: 1919 Jesus Judged Christendom and then the statement was made that “Babylon the Great has fallen” which led them to promote the “fact” that they were the only ones doing Gods will and that put them in the position of (in their belief) as being the 7 congregations that have letters sent to their respective angels (whatever that means). It also places them in the position of being “the administration at the full limit of the appointed times to collect together those of the heavens and those of earth, this would appear to line up with Matthew 25 where ha appoints the Faithful and Discrete Slave.
Raven, do you believe Jesus came in 1914 because if you don’t you could hardly hold onto the belief that they been appointed to this position? This may seem frivolous and not worthy of examining but statements such as these above have underpinned the collection of people to the WT since and has proceeded to teach people all that is associated with these lies. This is the main point that I am trying to get across, everybody needs to examine what they have been told.
The Bible students up until around 1932-33 collected all people on the basis that they were to be “heavenly subjects” but when the numbers become greater than 144,000 they decided that the “collection criterion” had changed and due to them thinking that they were the Admin took it upon themselves to start the Great Crowd and this bogus belief is still very strong amongst JW’ and JW’s alike which is ironic because here we are having this conversation!
PS I do believe that there is only 144,000 that are chosen to go to heaven, well indeed if that numbers is literal but I’m thinking it is.

The Raven

You must have missed what I wrote. I stated that I do not believe the 1914 or the idea that they were the authority in collection criterion. I also stated that Jehovah conducts His business with whatever He chooses and who ever He wants. Has He used the WTO to fulfill the command to preach the good news? Yes He has. You must accept that. They are the only people professing His name and have done so for a while now.
If you believe that 144,000 go to heaven then why do you not believe in the great crowd? That is scriptural. Whether the WTO claimed it or not after they were over the limit is inconsequential, Is it not?
Who are they? What and who does heaven rule over if not them? Where do they go?
Where do the rest of us and the dead go?

Bklyn Kevin

The separation appears to have began in Genesis 3:15 when Jehovah said “And I will put enmity between you and the woman
(and between your offspring and her offspring.)
He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel.”
However the choosing has not been accomplished fully as of yet.
That will come about when Jesus the master comes and confirms his slaves being faithful during the hour or test in which they would have been refined like silver and gold.
“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on coming finds him doing so! Truly I say to you, he will appoint him over all his belongings. Matthew 24:45-47.

The fifth angel blew his trumpet. And I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to the earth, and the key to the shaft of the abyss was given to him. He opened the shaft of the abyss, and smoke ascended out of the shaft like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun was darkened, also the air, by the smoke of the shaft. And locusts came out of the smoke onto the earth,
( and authority was given to them,)
the same authority that the scorpions of the earth have. Revelation 9:1-3.

Huldah

Of topic but I saw this text and wondered what the 40yrs symbolize
Ezek 29

13 “‘For this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “After 40 years I will gather back the Egyptians from the peoples where they were scattered;+

If Egypt is US is this 40yrs literal to the time after the US is destroyed.
As Br King mentioned before if tine was not cut short no one would survive so if forty ys is figurative, what is it?

Has Robert written on it?

Interestingly
Israel wilderness 40 yrs

Time from Jesus first temple cleanse 29 ce to destruction of jerusalem roughly 40 years

Beverly kenyon

Brother King wrote a really interesting article a while back about 40 years and that number 40 in the Bible. I think the article was called, 1975 – 40 Years After. And it’s interesting that at this year’s convention of JW’s on the programme, there’s a talk on 1975! Wonder if that will be of comfort to some of JW’s who sold up everything and put lives on hold believing that the end of this system was that year!

Thanks Joseph, that’s the article. I don’t know how posting links works as I’m a bit of a gawp at tech so thanks for taking the time.

Joseph S.

No worries, we’re all in this together! You are very welcome!!

Huldah

Thanks Bev, I’ll see if I can search it out.

There seems to be an underlying trend for the GB in recent years to hint at the idea that we should be prepared for changes to our understanding that may prove to be a test for us.

I wonder if the 1975 talk is a prepper for the “new light” that’s coming themed on dealing with disappointment or accepting change without questioning.

I’ll be interested to find out.

Beverly kenyon

Exactly Huldah, you are so right thinking that. How crafty of them to take that stain on their history and rework it to their advantage otherwise why bring up that disastrous time which certainly don’t make them look good. They are psychologically prepping JW’s for ‘new light’ to probably accept ‘life saving instructions’. They’ve been banging on about ‘new light’ for years, well how bright can that light get?! It must be football stadium bright now! ?

Huldah

I read it. Interesting. Funny how I had just realized today that it was 40 years after Jesus cleansed the temple that Jerusalem was destroyed. There it is in the article plain as day. I was listening to RK’s book and it jumped out at me that Jesus 3.5 years ministry corresponded to his inspection of the Jews. As he said, they were destroyed because ‘they did not discern the time of their being inspected’.

Jesus cleansed the temple before and at the end of his ministry.
Kinda scares me though ’cause I really don’t want it to be 40 years until the end of the system after Jesus comes to inspect the second time. Ezekiel 29 seems to say it’s 40 years after the US collapses.

RK did answer this question on a podcast where someone asked if the 40 years could be 40 days after US falls that the new government is instituted. Robert reasoned that 40 years would be too long and the system would revert to tribalism and a caveman existence if left too long after total economic collapse. Makes sense. He didn’t have a definite answer but agreed that 40 days is possible.

I know how Jehovah is, though. The Israelites thought they were going straight to the promised land and had to wait 40 years. I know how JWs are too, just as stiff necked as the Israelites. I’m leaning heavily on the hope we are in the wilderness now as has been said and we don’t have to put up with this system or suffer any longer because of the stiff necked ones.

Oh please not another 40 years of this!!!

Beverly kenyon

Hi Huldah, love this post of your’s. Yeah, that number forty speaks volumes in the Bible. That number fascinates me ever since RK brought it out in that article. Events written in Revelation appear to be fast moving so I can’t see it being forty years from the total collapse of the US to the new government. The world would be like living in one of those apocalyptic films so it doesn’t make sense that it would be that length of time and Jehovah says he will be doing a strange and unusual work so there’s going to be surprises when events unfold. I’m in agreement with you Huldah, when you say, oh please not another 40 years of this!! I can’t even take another 40 hours of this!! Hope you come up with another thought on the number forty as written in the Bible as you’re a a very insightful and educated Bible student and that number plays an important role in Jehovah’s purposes.

Richard Long

You really need to get over​ the WT org. We all realize the org has become an empire styled cash machine run by con artists using our faith to control us by deceptive mean. If all the thousands of viewers of this forum were in one room and you made a call for all those still trusting the WT, you would still hear nothing but the crickets chirping outside. I have supported you as an honest broker, so now you must conduct your argument with Raven without reference to the WT and their overreaching assumptions, as if they had NEVER existed. I will have more to say on the matter when home can concentrate, but I say this with all love that you are wrong and I’m “betting” he will prove it.

The Raven

Truth comes from sources of Jehovah’s choosing, not ours. Even the stones speak…
I don’t have to do jack. It is incumbent on the ones making the claims to prove them. So far they have not. There are many here who can and have presented truth beginning with King and I am appreciative of it.

I have noticed that much of this is geared towards not only discrediting the WTO for their error but by extension, even the anointed. They were stumbled to be sure, but..Jehovah does not let those who seek him fly blind, either.

Implying that we should all partake of emblems is incorrect. In fact…dangerous. I am not getting replies to direct questions from Brian as we saw with Francis.
That… is for a reason.

The invitation to know Jah has been and continues to be made to all. There is still time for this. Whether by the WTO or by private study doesn’t matter at this point. But…only those who know Jah will be saved. The bible is CLEAR on that.
Do not lose sight of the basic understanding and scriptural facts which have been borne out through the efforts of the anointed and countless publishers who toiled to present it.
That still has great value, IMHO.

The snare is not always evident to us. The pit is a lot deeper than it looks. We can be emotionally manipulated into allowing ourselves to agree in a seemingly harmless manner only to find we support views diametrically opposed to what we know is truth. There is a line.

Some also vacillate between fawning adoration and abject hatred when confronted with those who won’t agree with us in everything. That’s a shame. Reasoning goes out the window and it devolves into a stupid pissing match.

I , like most folks am looking for answers. But I’m not about to dive into a snare with a rabbit that refuses to free himself despite our efforts.

Richard Long

Didn’t mean to put you on the spot. But the fact remains that if he a debates with me, he trifles with a featherweight, with you, he takes on a heavyweight contender.

The Raven

We have all known some very intelligent idiots (look at the system) and have seen wisdom in the most simple and humble of souls. So don’t sell yourself short.

Richard Long

I’m not. Just recognizing ability where it shows itself.

Max

Well said!

Burt Reynolds

Well yes,
‘we can be emotionally manipulated into allowing ourselves to agree in a seemingly harmless manner only to find we support views diametrically opposed to what we know is truth.’
But surely someone must speak truth. How else would we learn? The disciples were believed, Jesus was believed….my point being is that some, me being one of them, can look at the scriptures and understand nothing. Take for example, Kevin’s biblical explanation of the anointed (above). Without the explanation and context, I would not know what this means and as for Revelations, well……
So in real terms, we have to believe that Jehovah will provide a source of truth. I cannot understand it on my own. I suppose that I am saying that here, I have chosen to trust. I believe, because what is said is reasonable, but I have to admit what my belief, primarily is inspired of a ‘Thomasonian’ belief in what I see. And what is see is creation. A cell of a leaf that can turn sunlight into food. Flesh that can think and reason and actually forms a personality, and see and hear and form language and remember. Huge land and sea creatures with a heart the size of a car, down to the glorious miniaturisation of creature the size of a pin point, that feeds like a vacuum cleaner on dead skin cells we drop, or a humming bird whose flight surpasses all others and has a heart the size of bead of glass. The natural laws; space, time, light, geometry, biology. …..who goes to heaven and who stays on earth pales somewhat. For me, I am still trying to figure out how a cell in my body decides to form a toe nail, and another that determines that I see in colour.

The Raven

I can appreciate that Thomasonian view as well. That’s where I was to start.
It was emotional manipulation which wreaked havoc on me from an early age. I learned to tune out the flattery as well as the derision from people who are just as confused as I am. But there was a limit to that, I know.

I too trust but verify what I can. As I stated earlier to Kevin, deductive reasoning only goes so far. Whether it be applied in the intellectual or secular sense or used to determine what the true meaning is in scripture. That…requires insight. When those who have this insight impart knowledge to others, their thoughts can hold up to scrutiny when measured by the standard, which is ultimately, scripture. The inspired words have the final say in EVERY discourse.

Jesus used it repeatedly.

I look around me and see the wonder of it all and am still amazed at its scope.
I give this for consideration. It’s right on the homepage:

I have to get to work, but I am sure there is much more on this. Thanks, Burt. 🙂

Brian

Hi Richard, I have gotten over the Watchtower a long time ago, apparently though many other haven’t are a still holding onto the beliefs that were implanted in them by said people so the problem isn’t mine Richard, it belongs to those that have not fully examined what their beliefs are.

The Raven

Other than your claim that everyone should be partaking of the emblems, what exactly are your beliefs.

Brian

Pretty much the same as everyone else’s, I believe that Jesus will be in the Kingdom with those chosen from the earth, that Jehovah has put all things under his feet to enact an almost “equal billing”, there will be a tumultuous time here on earth that will be the beginning of the end of this world system and mark the start of the beginning of the Kingdom. I believe that all who have put their faith in Jesus are called and out of these their will be a select group of a given number that will rule with Jesus over the earth and creation. I don’t believe that Jesus has arrived in the Kingdom and therefore i don’t believe anything that is said about events associated with this false event. I believe that all other than those that are chosen are considered as dead no matter how wonderful one may think they are although there will be an unnumbered group that will survive the end of this system because they have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb but they will be no less dead that the others. I believe that what is coming upon the earth must be a substantial and undeniable witness to the nations as those that choose not to wash their robes are subjected at the end of this immediately to the second death that even some of the most crooked people that have ever lived are not subjected to. I could go on but I am pretty sure it is much the same as those here believe, at least it gives you an inkling to where I am coming from!

The Raven

“I don’t believe that Jesus has arrived in the Kingdom and therefore i don’t believe anything that is said about events associated with this false event.”

I don’t think anyone here believes Jesus is here.

“I believe that all who have put their faith in Jesus are called and out of these their will be a select group of a given number that will rule with Jesus over the earth and creation.”

This is why you think we should partake? You do know the criteria for that right?

“although there will be an unnumbered group that will survive the end of this system because they have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb but they will be no less dead that the others”

Clarify that, please.

“those that choose not to wash their robes are subjected at the end of this immediately to the second death that even some of the most crooked people that have ever lived are not subjected to.”

also 1 Corinthians 11 is also interesting for the reason that it appears not all those present shared in the meal. Why would he have had to say these things had they all had a heavenly hope?

And this:

Luke 22
28 “You are those who have stayed with me in my trials, 29 and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, 30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

He id this with those who would become judges.

The Raven

Here is an excerpt from the article:

In view of the fact that the Devil had already entered into Judas as he reclined at the Passover table with the other apostles when Jesus instituted the observance of his death by breaking the bread and saying “this means my body,” should we not expect the demons to take a special interest in the Evening Meal now?

Indeed, since the sacredness of the Evening Meal has long been desecrated by the demons with their abominable Catholic mass, where the practice of feeding a wafer to the throngs of the ignorant and untaught is a daily ritual, the faint whisper of the original serpent is also detectable among Jehovah’s Witnesses: ‘Is it really so that Jehovah has said you must not eat or drink the emblems’?

Please read the rest of this. It is well worth it.

The Raven

Sometimes we tend to lose sight of the fact that our Adversary has had possibly millions of eons to perfect his craft. Something was simmering in that beautiful, perfect angel that brought all creation to this. Think about that.
We all came from different backgrounds and experiences to a point in our lives when the accurate knowledge of the truth became everything to us. Why? Because we love Jah and each other.
I do not believe you or anyone else I may call a brother or a sister in the grand Divine journey would knowingly promote a lie.
But I do believe that the Devil can and does take notice and acts on any weakness we may show to destroy us.
It seems a simple thing, doesn’t it? Should we partake or not? Then why has this become such an issue? Why have former JWs suddenly come to accept this and even some go so far as claiming that baptism isn’t necessary when that’s what Christ commanded us to do? Only a few ate with Him, but ALL were baptized, including the masses.
Oh yes. I’ve known about that too. The fighting over these matters is making the devil very happy. If he can sow doubt and discord its because we permit it. We are all capable of searching the scripture for answers but not all of us can see them as clearly as some. And those few with deeper insight have spoken in a clear and concise manner to us.
Examine them, by all means. But do not throw away the reasoning which first made you a believer. This is a critical time evidenced by the attacks and discord among His people.
And we are being picked apart one issue at a time. One omission at a time. Heh…
Isn’t the devil in the details?

Brian

Daylight work hours here, gotta go, late already.

Burt Reynolds

I would dearly like to know how a person feels that they are annointed. My point of view, not having that sense of feeling, assume it as a colour blind person would not knowing what, say, red is, or blue. I know my nephew sees a green sky! I imagine if one is annointed, they have a strong urge to get up and shout out …’stop the world, I want to get off!’ As for me, I know I’m not annointed for my reaction to this world’s troubles is not to get off, but to find a deep hole. My dog agrees with me so I know I’m right.

The Raven

Well, you know who would be able to give you some insight on that. I have never had any wish to be anywhere but here.

Bklyn Kevin

Romans 8:1-39
Life and freedom through the spirit (1-11)
Spirit of adoption bears witness (12-17)
Creation awaits freedom of God’s children (18-25)
The spirit pleads for us’ (26, 27)
Foreordination by God (28-30)
Victorious through the love of God (31-39)

Doh! I make a defense for them and their positions from my limited capacity to understand what exactly it is that makes them different. Once again, Kevin…BRAVO!

Bklyn Kevin

What exactly it is that makes them different?.
nothing, really, not yet anyway, however there are exceptions at the present time.

But the one who guarantees that you and we belong to Christ and the one who anointed us is God. He has also put his seal on us and has given us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit, in our hearts. 2 Corinthians 1:20-21.

But our citizenship exists in the heavens, and we are eagerly waiting for a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our humble body to be like his glorious body by his great power that enables him to subject all things to himself. Philippians 3:20-21.

Beloved ones, we are now children of God, but it has not yet been made manifest what we will be. We do know that when he is made manifest we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is.John 3:2

The Raven

Thanks for clarification on that. Sometimes what we inherently sense needs a boost, so to speak.

Max

Kevin, you always post such a nice bible verses to say what you want to say. So is not you talking but the Bible itself. I love that… and thank you for sharing your knowledge of the Bible.

The Raven

In this I agree wholeheartedly. It’s always wise to do when even deductive reasoning fails to drive a point home.

The Raven

Thank you so much for that gentle nudge but at that hour and in the middle of dealing with an irritating distraction I had at home even a two by four may not have been enough.

The Raven

Another thing I thought of is that why else would the GB have treated the anointed so badly if they weren’t ? They concentrated power into the hands of a few men and silenced thousands. We have all seen the result of that underhanded maneuver.

They sent letters, did you read what Max said? The letters were trashed. It’s obvious they were the ones who supplied spiritual food to the org for a time only to be told their services would no longer be required. Not just that, but slandered and thrown out as apostates for protesting.

The last refuge of a scoundrel in an untenable position is to defame and attack. Anyone can make the claim to be anointed, I agree. But this group in particular was exposed not by the devil per se, but by their own leadership. The Man of lawlessness.

They are marked in that respect. They have been called since Christ’s death. There has not been a stop in that. It will continue even til the last days. I agree that not all are known as of today and not all are inside that corrupt institution. Some are on the outside.

The sheep and the goats is a different issue. That applies to the REST of us. My best hope is NOT to be the marshmallow in that BBQ.

What say ye?

Burt Reynolds

I was under the impression that the annointed will be revealed in due course, having been called. The scriptures tell us that many will be called but few will be chosen, and that when these are revealed, it will be they who are called before kings and judges and whom will speak not their own words but that Jehovah speaks through them or gives them the words to speak. If the experience of others is anything to go by, it seems there are some who feel, or sense that ‘call’ but of course are not confirmed in that until they are tested as worthy. On approval, It is at that point, like beacons, shining, they will go forth to make the final witness. One assumes that there is still room to fail in this as even Jesus did not utter that ‘it is accomplished…’ Until his last breath. Therefore, even if Satan did not know who the annointed were before their being confirmed, then he certainly would after that point. But it is reasonable to assume that he does know who is called as well because the scriptures tell us that each is drawn out by his own desire and to follow that, by our very actions, we reveal ourselves to Satan for that testing. But that latter bit is just an assumption on my part because I am not privy to the spiritual realm. Yet if Satan can tempt, he must know our inner workings…..or does he….because if we are drawn out by our own desires, we contend with ourselves. Yet if Satan can put things in our mind to motivate us in our desires for sin, then presumable he can manipulate our thought processes. As we can do this ourselves, ( the watchtower seem pretty adept at it) it seems reasonable to assume Satan can. That would include taking of the emblems when not entitled to. As the scriptures say….do not be thinking more of yourselves than is necessary….

The Raven

I am in agreement with that. It is more or less what I stated earlier.

The Raven

Let me add they have caught it from all sides, haven’t they? From within without and everyone in between. Would they have been so set upon had they been just JWs? The other sheep are still preaching and teaching. A lot of false prophecy, no doubt, but they have NOT been stopped. Think about it for a minute.
In fact, the WTO claims large numbers being added every year like dutiful automatons all the while KHs have been sold and members jammed into fewer halls.
But the very class who they claim to have gotten this spiritual food from has been shut down. THAT speaks volumes. They shut them down when it became apparent they were NOT in agreement with the GB. Basically hijacked. Sure the devil knows who they are. Their usurpers exposed them inadvertently with that action, I believe. It’s also obvious to me that some of those who consider themselves chosen have not taken this lying down either. I think the major issue is how we explain these matters from a flesh and blood point of view.
My spidey sense tells me to watch what they do. It distinguishes them.
(I wish we had italics, it would help.)

DA, if he kicks me out he kicks me out, He is NOT who decides if one is to be chosen or not. It still doesn’t alter the fact that all that are called are to be partaking. Indeed whoever eats of the loaf and drinks of the cup unworthily will be guilty respecting the body and blood of the the lord, what is that exactly and who conducts the scrutiny? The scrutiny is, has this person believed that Jesus is the Christ, go back to when this was written, the Jews and those in the surrounding regions would/could very well partake without recognising that Jesus was the promised son of God and by doing so bring judgement upon themselves. There is also a warning to “partakers” that they should eat before in case they are taking it for physical sustenance. Indeed people need to be careful that they aren’t doing what Matthew warned about Matthew 23:13″Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut
the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do
not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.” Careful indeed!

Bklyn Kevin

Brian said to Beverly kenyon • 2 days ago
Hi Beverly, indeed everyone should be partaking,

Let’s suppose for arguments sake that your right and everybody should partake!

Then that would mean the great crowd which are to live on earth forever would have to be present and temporarily relocated (in the Kingdom of Jesus’ Father.) In order to partake

Now ask yourself does that sound reasonable in view of the scripture below.

But I say to you:
I will by no means drink again any of this product of the vine
until that day when I drink it new with you (in the Kingdom of my Father.)
Matthew 26:1-75
Also please take notice that Jesus gave the cup to them his “chosen ones” at that time and not to any other group.

27 Also, he took a cup and, having given thanks, he “gave it to” them,”
saying: “Drink out of it, all of “YOU”.

I do not request that you take “them” out of the world, but that you watch over “them” because of the wicked one. They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth. Just as you sent me into the world,
(I also sent them) into the world. And I am sanctifying myself in ” their behalf,” so that they also may be sanctified by means of truth. John17:15-19. Read more>

To be clear he was agreeing to Beverly’s suggestion that all should partake:
Beverly said to Brian:
“He knows where to find the remaining ones, especially when they’re the only ones partaking at the Memorial…they stand out blatantly so it’s something to said for everyone to partake just like Jesus instructed us to. In my opinion!! ”

But I do not know where that came from or when originally.

“Then that would mean the great crowd which are to live on earth forever would have to be present and temporarily relocated (in the Kingdom of Jesus’ Father.) In order to partake”

Oh boy… I can’t even wrap my brain around that. Thanks again Kevin.

Brian

No they wouldn’t, these that are chosen will partake of the wine in the Kingdom after they have been anointed into it via their death after the “journey”. All of the others that were not chosen would be outside of the temple. Kevin, when Jesus was on the earth and he commissioned his apostles and later his disciples what was the Kingdom message, was it you were going to live on a paradise earth so don’t bother about wanting to become “a brother of Jesus” or was it the Kingdom is open to men of all nations?

Bklyn Kevin

non·sense

/ˈnänˌsens,ˈnänsəns/ noun

noun: nonsense 1 spoken or written words that have no meaning or make no sense.
“he was talking absolute nonsense”

Brian

Delusion

deludeverb (used with object), deluded, deluding.

1.

to mislead the mind or judgement of; deceive:
His conceit deluded him into believing he was important.

2.

Obsolete. to mock or frustrate the hopes or aims of.

3.

Obsolete. to elude; evade.

I came here originally thinking that people weren’t “DELUDED” by the Watchtower and their falsities , I realise now that I was 100% wrong in my judgement.
See ya.

Burt Reynolds

Was it not open to all, (not sealed to all, or offered to all) both heavenly and earthly, because, and I cannot recall where, the scriptures said that the chosen would be taken from among those who believe. That is why it is spoken that they are ‘chosen’ from the great crowd and that it is this choosing that sets them apart through the emblems. It is true scripturally that the emblems were only given to those at the last supper and the instructions that went with it. After which, they went to do the lords work, which was not marking annointed, but preaching about the kingdom. Surely Jehovah would approve or Mark those who were to be annointed, not the disciples ?

The scriptures as pointed out by Kevin are unemotive and straightforward. They do not reflect an opinion ( of his or anyone else’s ) but constitute the stand-alone narrative of what is. But Brian, you apply a supposition when you suggest ‘cowards’ and a supposition is what the arguement is. Perhaps rather than seek a definitive answer from others here, you should seek it of Jehovah and let him be your guide. There has to be an answer within the bible, not in ourselves. As you say, Robert is not the end of the matter, and thus, neither are we and our opinion. It is a far easier yoke to bear to just take the bible as it is written and pointless to argue on something that none of us can say for certain is true from ourselves. If this was the case, we would all end up winning an arguement, but not life. This is why faith is the answer, ‘in what is reasonable.’

Richard Long

Following your line of thinking, might we then expect a number of the “true annointed” outside the congregations, having been expelled by MOL minions? Maybe they partake in private, maybe not at all, as Robert some time ago (years) expressed that particular year he did/would attended but didn’t/wouldn’t partake. I mean the whole partaking is just none of my business, as I am certain I am NOT called, but this would mean​ there are true annointed out there, not back in Christendom, just out there on their own. No?

Beverly kenyon

My personal thought on that line of thinking is that any anointed who have been expelled from the congregations do partake privately with fellow believers or family but I would think that’s private thing known to them and I would like to think that maybe there are anointed ones out there similar to Elijah’s day but I know for sure when Jesus comes back in his real Parousia he will gather these ones for God’s Kingdom and come alongside them on his arrival.

Richard Long

Would you say these very ones, after some time and unknown to us “at the hall” may, unbeknownst to us at the time, provide us with the opportunity to feed, clothe and protect?

Beverly kenyon

I think it starts now as Christians. If we can and within our means, help clothe, feed and protect ones we can see in need. Being called is a private thing that’s known to such ones unless they want to share that information and it might just happen that we will know for sure we’re helping an anointed one but until then I’ll try to help if I can anyone in need as like Abraham and Sarah you could be entertaining Angels or Anointed…you never know.

Max

Pharisaical have always been my word to describe them too sadly that trend which is now a culture in the organization trickles down to the KH and to the elders. I remember when the new light came out about the differentiation between the slave and the domestics. The GB explained that only the GB was the solely conduit used by Jehovah to dispense the spiritual food and that the anointed not belonging to the slave class called the domestics where not to feed the sheeps of the Lord. Later the domestic class was also extended to the great crowd. When I was at Bethel I remember brothers talking about the immense amount of letters that the GB received every month from anointeds arroubd the world expressing their concern for the “new light” published in the WT and books which of course all “new light” was exclusively coming from the GB.I remember nobody at Bethel took those letters seriously they were all dismissed pretty fast. Not even anointed district overseers were ever taking seriously. If an anointed ever wanted to complaint he was immediately said not to be really an anointed. So I think with the class separation they were telling the rest of the anointeds around the world please do not border sending more letters we are the only channel.

The Raven

WOW! Thank you for telling me this, Max. It’s maddening Isn’t it? And you were there to see this. I would have been heartbroken and furious to see them dismiss those letters and the pleas from the anointed.
It’s hard to imagine how they could not realize their OWN butts were on the line for that and that would have to account for it someday.

Max

True! It was always said though that a true anointed would never go against the GB-the slave class to whom the King had given all power over His house and domestics. So any anointed thinking differently was quickly transferred to the other sheep group and not even given the time of the day. I had an anointed sister in my congregation for awhile and she didn’t fit the norm according to the other two bethelites attending that congregation. We were 3 bethelites attending that KH. I always thought they were a bit disrespectful with the sister they mock her and laugh at her sometimes because she didn’t look the role as the members of the GB whom were the rule for the rest of the anointed to be measured by. I always went out my way to make the sister feel welcome. I did not want to be in her bad side during Armageddon if she really ended up being anointed. ?

The Raven

Wise decision, max. 🙂

Jamie Mac

and JW’s think they are in a spiritual paradise. The GB wont be around and the anointed will be looking down upon us when the spiritual paradise eventually comes.

Burt Reynolds

That is just so dissapointing to hear and so contradictory when we consider that at one time, to be a member of the governing body, they had to be anointed. It seems the watchtower have ceased to teach altogether and now just spend their energies on trying to prove the lies they have taught, excusing themselves, wriggling their way through thier lies. And every time they justify one lie, it unbalances another and so they have to go back to that one. A house of cards.

Anderiega

They produce cartoons too!

Joseph S.

If that doesn’t sum it up, I don’t really know what would!! Maybe they should go to work for Nickelodeon ??????

“nobody at Bethel took those letters seriously they were all dismissed pretty fast.”

whitch goes to show their hypocritical nonsence of the massive Russia letter campaign

Anderiega

The Saul class…..

Richard Long

Your neighbors are prepping not against foreign invasion but the collapse of the pretense that is the Constitution.

The Raven

It’s not invasion per se, but any eventuality. Including a limited nuclear war and societal collapse due to…whatever strings London decides to pull. Sir Rothschild, the unfederal reserve, Bonesmen…you know… 😉

Richard Long

In Kentucky, MY neighbors are gettin’ ready for the suspension of posse comitatus .

The Raven

I feel like that may be implemented on a regional basis depending on what the catalyst for unrest might be. At this point It could be deliberate or a natural phenomenon. Living in hurricane alley as I do we’ve seen NG troops on the streets, curfews and bans on liquor sales among other things. Pretty sorry sight to see people suffering the DTs begging to buy booze after a big blow comes through. And then there’s all the self anesthetized zombies who can’t get anything from their unlicensed pharmacists.

Whatever the trigger it ain’t gonna be fun.

Jamie Mac

Thanks Robert enjoyed the article. Time to reinforce our faith and be ready as we can. As Dean LaRue stated, make sure we have plenty of spiritual oil so that we don’t run out of faith during the difficult times ahead for all.

The Raven

If you ever wanted to know who your essential workers are just look at the parking lot on weekends, holidays or disasters. I suspect when TSHTF, the top echelon will bail and the folks who actually did the trudge work will step up. Christ knows who the true princes are. Of that I am certain.

JTK

.
another enlightening commentary Robert. thank you

Yes,what is to come is going to be like an earthquake to the faith of most Jehovahs witnesses. everything that they have put their faith in with regard to their faithful and discrete slave leadership is going to be ripped to bits in front of their eyes.
However there has to be a destruction of such things for there to be a rebuilding of truth,and a gathering of the sons of God, just as in the days of Elijah, when all looked lost and Elijah thought he was the only one , but God in his plan had reserved 7K, so the sons of God today are being reserved by God. Who are they?
well thats for God to know and the world to be shown when they are revealed.
my thoughts are, do these sons of God actually know it themselves yet, and if so do they know each other

Burt Reynolds

Interesting point! It certainly does not appear that the seven thousand are aware of each other as there seems strong disagreement between the thoughts of those that do have more accurate knowledge not to mention general disagreement between sheep. In the end analysis, I think Robert is correct when he suggests that if people are directly spoken to by Jehovah they will believe it. Therefore one might expect that Jehovah’s view of the seven thousand is piercing to the heart condition, the desire to know and to serve in righteousness, above that of accurate knowledge. I think it applies to all of us in that at present, we only see through a glass darkly, and that the degree of knowledge between the greatest of us and the least of us, is but minuscule compared with what is to come to all of us. Having said that, it is also apparant that some see through the dark glass more keenly and that being so, this is the only indicator to them at present of who may be favoured in this way. After all, we are taught that we are all only applicants to salvation, not that we are as yet sealed or agreed as such in either respect of favour and reward.

The Raven

Did not see this before I replied to your other comment, Burt.
Yes, THAT. Basically what I think. Just a different way of getting to it.

JTK

yes i agree
notably, Paul, when visited by Christ as one” prematurely born” changed from a persecutor of Gods people to a servant of The Lord, but even then, as Robert pointed out in a previous article, he was not confirmed as such until later as his death approached he received the confirmation by the Spirit
personaly i suspect many that think they are heirs as sons of God may well find that they are not, and many who think they are not even invited to the wedding may well be surprised.
Matthew 22:9,10

Burt Reynolds

One thing for sure….I will be surprised whatever happens…unless I get shown the door. I would not be surprised at that!

The Raven

For what it’s worth even though I just met you, I WOULD be surprised if you were shown the door. I worry about that too sometimes, but many of my fears are allayed by the promise that He will not abandon the lowly and suffering among us. Even when we get cranky.
As to the those who claim to be something they’re not…hmmm.

Burt Reynolds

IT just occurred to me last night about the question on that last topic of whether all was known before hand and whether Jehovah knew about Adam’s sin before he spoke with them. Of course he did! Eating fruit does not make you are aware that you are naked, and neither does the act of eating fruit make you feel ashamed of being naked. I’ve just tried it on my innocent dog and he has not asked for underwear or changed his somewhat graphic behaviour.

The Raven

Hahahahaha!!!! I did not discuss that with him but I did read the comments on THAT particular issue. That’s … brilliant!

Yuri Fisher

Hello there

Thank you Robert for reminding us of future dangers. We all here expect soon the fall of WT. And of USA. Soon America will start big wars against many countries. They prepare for it. Just now American Army asks for more weapon. I think by the end of this year world will be engaged in big wars. Here in Israel we expect big war with Lebanon and Syria. Hizballa and Iran also prepare. Trump just gave Israel more money for war. But what is most important what will be with WT when WW3 will begin. Will it collapse soon after WW3 begins or maybe later. My guess is soon. Jesus will judge WT as soon as possible.

Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

Hi Yuri Fisher nice to see you there in Israel. How are you doing and why you were not seen for so long? By the by how was Trump’s trip to Israel and what did he say?

Yuri Fisher

Hello Basavaraj
Nice to hear from you too.
We are OK in Israel. Trump came to Israel to make peace. But we all know that US is preparing for war. All the countries around us are fighting. Also Israel is fighting in Syria. You can read site Debka. Com. On YouTube you can listen to Israeli News Live. All of us here preparing for war. Israel is going to attack with US at Syria. Also other countries. We are entering WW3 but JW do not believe it. I try to say to others about it. The war this time must be short because if not we all going to die. After the war 3.5 years of 8th King. WT will be destroyed. I talked to elders about imminent destruction of WT. They of course ignore me and what I say.
How are you hope you are well.
Send my love to your family. Keep in touch.

Yuri

Richard Long

Well, Yuri, I for one am glad you were only ignored and not flogged! Please travel safe!

Yuri Fisher

Hi Richard
I am still not expelled from JW organization. But they know I do not believe GB. And they just ignore me

Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

Yeah I hear you

Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

That is why now a days the articles published in our WT magazines do not contain prophecies and that is why although my book of bible story book is as old as 1973 it is still available in the jw.org but why the newer books such Isaiah’s prophecy Volume 1 and 2, Daniels’ prophecy as well as Revelation its grand climax at hand is not found the jw.org? Have anyone of you thought?

Richard Long

Because they are all embarrassments of misapplied scripture?

Brian

Indeed Richard, I remember baulking at “Revelation and its grand climax” over 20 years ago 22 actually. Those “studies” are great for people that don’t spend a lot of time thinking about the scriptures. The way they pigeon holed some of Daniels “days” such as 2300 mornings & evenings as being boiled down to something as frivolous as from some concocted date to another starting with the Cedar Point Ohio convention in 1926 and culminating with some other insignificant event in 1932, I think there is also another take on this at around 1938 with an explanation equally as pathetic as the original The “Anglo American duo” has been around as long as this little gem, so much for only being a “short while” and this all before the actual beast comes into existence, absolutely amazing really!

Richard Long

(sigh)

The Raven

One thing I could never get past was their tendency to shoehorn 10 lbs of “stuff” into a 5 lb sack. I got two years of that in Catholic school and lets just say I don’t like being beaten with a yardstick. Physical, spiritual or psychological.
Those penguins were vicious!

Brian

I didn’t have to put up with the penguins, my father was depression era convert (they had to sign up to be fed) and my mother wasn’t one and would have no part of the Catholic Church and as a consequence we didn’t, my cousins weren’t so lucky!

Richard Long

On an older discussion, I attempted to give Raven background on the “role” you have come to play here. I hope it is fair and accurate. If not, please correct me.

Brian

Hi Richard, I’m not really sure of my role, I just like to get to the bottom of this, I hang on Jesus words ” know the truth and the truth will set you free”. Have come along way and it really does set you free, free from the mindset of this world for one.

The Raven

I sometimes get a nervous twitch in my left eye .I acquired it as the result of tensing up and bracing for impact when I stupidly asked a question I knew would piss
them off since they couldn’t answer it. That twitch manifests itself at the strangest times too! Usually when I hear BS.
But I’m happy to say I no longer have nightmares. Except for the occasional flashback I’m doing so much better now! Really! 🙂

Brian

Good to hear Raven, one of my older cousins went to a Marist Brothers school in Sydney Aus, he says they were the cruellest bunch a#$eholes he had ever come across and he grew up in the western suburbs of Sydney during the late 40′-50’s and there plenty to compare to!

The Raven

I believe it. My knuckles still ache when I think about that place.

Brian

Actually I shouldn’t have said cruellest, what he actually said was they were the most sadistic dogs! Yes the knuckles, were you a “left-hander” as well? We used to get leather across the palms, smarts on a cold morning but looking back i am pretty sure no one got them without reason, unruly boys tech college!

The Raven

The physical beatings were often undeserved. The constant barrage of disparaging remarks was tedious but tolerable. Look at them the wrong way or fail to address them properly and you got it. I was a left hander until my wrist was broken. Then right. This was grade school. Elementary. But that’s water under the bridge now. I’ve slipped their fetters. 🙂

Burt Reynolds

A good book to read is ‘Maria. Confessions of a nun’ 1856. It describes the horrors of Catholicism in a closed community, where they colluded in relations with priests via a secret tunnel, (or were raped), and the pile of infant corpses found down a deep pit in the cellar some fifty years later. It’s a good modern day example of closed religious communities and what was going on in the temple all those years ago when given a vision through the walls. If I recall correctly, it was a Canadian order of nuns.

The Raven

That’s horrid. They have left a trail of more than corpses in their wake. A lot of damaged individuals too. That’s why when I found out about the pedophilia among the JWs and how the org handled it I couldn’t help but remember the awful time I had in Catholic school. I wasn’t abused the way those poor kids were but it seems most of those who seek power should never get it.

Basavaraj Of North Karnataka

Yeah that’s right

Joseph S.

Elijah got cake ? I like cake!!!! ? “He experienced a supernatural demonstration of Jehovah’s power and was fed cake by a materialized angel. (The original angel food cake!)” Wondering if it had any icing? ?
Yummy

Beverly kenyon

What was in that Angel food cake? It says, that after eating that cake washed down with water, Elijah kept going in the POWER of that nourishment for forty days and forty nights as far as the mountain of Horeb. 1Kings 19:8. And I think he was bobbing on in years…he wasn’t a spring chicken. Now that’s what I call, real superfood! If he ‘kept going’ then he wasn’t stopping for breath.

Joseph S.

Hopefully during the great tribulation we will have a chance to try this super food, directly from Jehovah!!

Beverly kenyon

Mmmm. Divine cake and fresh coffee. Bliss! Especially during GT!

Jamie Mac

Beverly, fresh coffee during the GT. You have just imagination 🙂

Joseph S.

Just imagine…………..
Your in the woods for three and a half years, looking all fit and tan in your burlap diaper…………..you stumble across a ripe coffee bush…………pick a handful and head down to the edge of the river to boil water and ground up your beans with two river rocks. “Ta-da” fresh cup of coffee with your angles food cake!!☕???

Jamie Mac

Joseph, I don’t drink coffee only tea but, I’m there now and I can taste it and I can see the crumbs of my Angel cake sprinkled across the ground. 🙂

Joseph S.

Tea for me as well !!

Jamie Mac

Do you have any British ancestors 🙂

Joseph S.

German and Italian with a twist of Polish !?

Jamie Mac

Hi Beverly, I can tell you with 100% certainty what was NOT in it. No e numbers or artificial colouring’s.

That’s hilarious Jamie…at heavenly realm…can’t stop laughing at that! The url does look fab and cool. Don’t know what was in that Divine cake, a dash of HS and were the ingredients similar to manna?!

Richard Long

You got ME that time, Jamie. Imagine my dismay when I plugged concakeonated int the dictionary. I seriously thought that was some kind of html techspeak. lol

Burt Reynolds

I don’t know….maybe it had ‘J’ numbers in it. Or possibly Jehovah did put an E number in it….’E’lijah numbers, guaranteed to last 40 days or your prophesy back.

Beverly kenyon

Lol. I get it! E numbers…you and Jamie are on form there! ?

Jamie Mac

Yes Joseph, if the angel took 40 days to materialise ( according to the banned Francis ) then the cake would have tasted even more supreme. 🙂

Burt Reynolds

I recall the watchtower explanation of how long it took to get to heaven and back, with regard to the Holy Spirit being poured out upon the gathered brothers in the upper room. They said that once the ransome had been paid, and Jesus would ascend to heaven to present such before Jehovah, that Jehovah would ‘not waste time’ in fulfilling it. Thus twenty days there, twenty days back. I don’t know if there is any justification for that. Which one of us would make a law of nature that would constrain our activities? I cannot imagine that Jehovah is limited by time, or that his Holy Spirit is. After all, he said, ‘let there be light….and there was light’. The closest we have ever come to that before the telegraph came into existence was the Victorian postal service, whereby you could post a letter at breakfast and it would be delivered by lunchtime. Five times a day too!

witnesses absolutely “rejected knowledge” and truth. they even get hostile and refuse to even look at the scriptures when they are out in service

The Raven

I didn’t know that. All the ones who still speak to me are friendly. They just shy away from a challenge or simply state they will wait and see on Jehovah. You must have run into some really contentious ones.

its hit and miss. some are nice. i feel Jehovah is happy with them after i walk away

Daisy d

Silly Billy.

KB

It’s kind of funny that JWS say “they will wait and see on Jehovah”. That’s code for, I will do whatever the organization tells me to do because they are the mouthpiece of god himself. That’s gonna be the problem in the end because they won’t be a credible mouthpiece to listen to. What a dilemma, the organization will be nothing more than a washed up shack. Hopefully many will not loose faith in Jehovah and Jesus.

The Raven

I agree with that assessment and I previously stated that I know those whose hearts really are in the right place with Jehovah will be helped. This is one of the reasons why I always had my doubts about those who took the lead but proved to be hypocrites. The GB being the worst. King’s thoughts on this as well as Perimeno’s helped a great deal. So did Crisis of Conscience by Franz. I think between them and others, especially disfellowshipped rank and file, I came to a good understanding of how dangerous the gatekeepers were. When you think about it… it’s insidious.

Beverly kenyon

Bloomin heck KB! It’s fantastic to see you back. I kept wondering where you’d got to. I kept thinking who’s gonna give us WT history as you’re an expert at that. Wow! It’s great to see you posting!

KB

Lol, Beverly. I’ve been in the “bushes” I guess. Great to see a few new ones here as well. This is my busy season with work so its hard to keep up sometimes. I’ve been here all along, I’m not going anywhere.

Beverly kenyon

It was just unusual for you to just disappear KB. It’s a tricky one when familiar ones just disappear as you want to ask after that person but you don’t want to intrude on someone’s private life and come across like you’re being a nosey neighbour so you end up just saying nothing but it doesn’t mean to say that you don’t think of that person from time to time. So glad you and family are okay KB. It’s just so great to see you back posting. Wow, it’s been a great night so far…DA popped up and so did you! Fabulous! Yeah, there’s some really interesting new arrivals here on Ewatchman. Bet you like Richard Long.

KB

It feels good to be missed. I’ll try to keep posting more regularly. I’m really not a big commenter at the KH, its been years probably since I’ve commented. Here at ewatchman it’s more interesting to comment but I guess I can get into a rut at times. You are welcome to email me, I’ve posted it before on here. If you don’t have it i can repost it.

Beverly kenyon

Course you were missed KB! Couldn’t believe when you went offline! Your comments were always straight talking, packed with insight and background info, I for one always wanted to see what you had to say. That’s great about your email if you don’t mind. Really interesting ones have joined in the discussion but my guts tell me you and Richard Long will be great pals and there’s Jamie…funny and so gentle and kind, think you already know of Brian, funny and clever, but all who have recently arrived are clever and funny and looking for real truth, hope they stick around as everyone brings something to the spiritual banquet…remember that picture of the banquet table Joseph posts, all of us love that picture especially Arvid as you know. Fantastic to see you back KB if I don’t reply it’s because it’s 1.15 am here in Manchester and I’ve got to catch some zzzzz’s. But will be speaking with you again. Once again KB it’s great to be talking with you again! I have great respect for you in sticking it out at KH despite how you feel.

Hi KB, can you believe I’ve only just crawled out of my pit (bed), lol. Posting you to say thanks for your email address and hopefully we’ll be talking. Thanks KB and it was a lovely surprise when you appeared.

Joseph S.

I can vouch for that one, it’s been crazy busy! Everyone has let there guard down and started spending (I mean borrowing) again! And in the field we’re in, that’s a good thing! Luckily I let my coworker drive so I’m able to keep up on the posts while riding shotgun!

The Raven

What field would that be, if you don’t mind saying?

Joseph S.

Electrical contractor

The Raven

I retired from Industrial and commercial electrical. Mainly high voltage. Do lighter work now.

Joseph S.

That’s awesome, we’re brothers in more ways than one!
I’ve done it all, but enjoy what I do now the most, custom 2nd homes down on the coast (Chesapeake Bay ). Every day is an adventure!

The Raven

Did a few of those and they were mansions we wired for the engineers associated with the big firms I worked for like B+R, Haliburton etc. when I was younger. My two nephews followed in my footsteps after borrowing/plundering my tools until they could get their own and became apprentices in residential. Yep. It was an adventure. lol

KB

Glad to hear you’re busy too. Time for us to grab a ?And ?Soon If you are ever in my area.

Joseph S.

I was just thinking about that yesterday!?????

Burt Reynolds

I can imagine that….’Joseph, we got a whole bunch o’ heathens jus’ hove into sight, a-coming up behind, reach for the Gatling gun…'( where’s the darn Lone Ranger when you need ‘im.)

Richard Long

Except JS will be packing a phaser cannon.

Joseph S.

They fire a series of pulses that cause more damage than a Turret, and I fire at will on ALL e-watchmen haters !

Burt Reynolds

My mother used to drive and ride shotgun at the same time….up and down kerbs, across red traffic lights. How she ever got licensed I’ll never know. Drove like a Belgian!

My sister is like that….refuses to check the wachtower teachings against the bible and just takes it as truth. It’s easier that way. I can imagine there will be a lot of blaming of Jehovah come the judgement. Just like Adam. The woman YOU gave me….will be turned into ‘the organisation YOU gave, deceived me, and I did believe…’

An example of God’s direction of such matters is found in Revelation, where reference is made to a definite number of persons finally “sealed,” namely, 144,000. (Re 7:4-8) Even before such final approval, God’s holy spirit serves as a seal that gives those sealed a token in advance of their inheritance, a heavenly one.

Ephesians 1:13, 14
13 But you also hoped in him after you heard the word of truth, the good news about your salvation. After you believed, you were sealed+ by means of him with the promised holy spirit, 14 which is a token in advance* of our inheritance,+ for the purpose of releasing God’s own possession+ by a ransom,+ to his glorious praise.

2 Corinthians 5:1-5
5 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, should be torn down,*+ we are to have a building from God, a house not made with hands,+ everlasting in the heavens. 2 For in this house* we do indeed groan, earnestly desiring to put on the one for us* from heaven,*+ 3 so that when we do put it on, we will not be found naked. 4 In fact, we who are in this tent groan, being weighed down, because we do not want to put this one off, but we want to put the other on,+ so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.+ 5 Now the one who prepared us for this very thing is God,+ who gave us the spirit as a token of what is to come.*+

Those having such a hope are also told: “God has set the members in the body [of Christ], each one of them, just as he pleased.”—1Co 12:18, 27.

In what sense, then, were those Christians “baptized for the purpose of being dead ones,” or “baptized into his death”? They were immersed into a course of life that was to lead them as integrity-keepers to death, as was the case with Christ, and with the hope of a resurrection like his to immortal spirit life. (Ro 6:4, 5; Php 3:10, 11) This was not a baptism that was accomplished quickly, as water immersion is. More than three years after his immersion in water, Jesus spoke of a baptism that was not yet completed in his own case and that was yet future for his disciples. (Mr 10:35-40) Since this baptism leads to resurrection to heavenly life, it must begin with the operation of God’s spirit on the person in such a way as to engender that hope, and it must end, not at death, but with realization of the prospect of immortal spirit life by means of the resurrection.—2Co 1:21, 22; 1Co 6:14.

The Raven

Anyone still want to partake?

Brian

Cowards??

The Raven

No, Brian. Very far from it.

Burt Reynolds

It’s refreshing to have the clarity of truth spoken in this matter. That aside, I would perhaps suggest that Corinthians describes the human condition for both the anointed and the sheep but in different manner according to our hope : ‘ In fact, we who are in this tent groan, being weighed down, because we do not want to put this one off, but we want to put the other on,+ so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.+ 5 Now the one who prepared us for thisvery thing is God,+ who gave us the spirit as a token of what is to come.’ . Maybe that Applies for all in a way, who may or will face death and requires great faith to understand and to ‘wear’ the fact that the sum total of the reward is far greater than its constituent parts of trial.

How true it is that those who are anointed are aware of the call and that those of us who are not, also are aware that we are not. It must be such a deep feeling of destiny for the anointed yet we who are not, are not tempted to decieve others or jealous in that our destiny lies in another direction. For me, nothing surpasses the sense that in the future, perhaps, about the breezy part of the day, Jehovah may come along side and ask how my day has been.

The Raven

Thank you for your considerate thoughts. Those verses speak to me in a very personal way. As you stated they do describe our collective condition. That makes me understand why we sometimes overlap in our thinking and try to reason that there is no distinction, when there is.
I have known from an early age that I would never be going to heaven. Even before the religionists got hold of me with their insistence that I was if I did what they told me and if not…was hell bound.
I sat before a bishop at my pre confirmation meeting when I was twelve and stated this was wrong. He looked shocked. At the time I had no idea what truth was. No knowledge or armor. Just a feeling in my core that all these rules, dogma, doctrines and ostentatious trappings and ritual were absolute BS.
The angry glares of my parents and godparents and their overriding me led to my confirmation anyway. After all, I was “too young to know anything and ignorant and I should do as I’m told for my own good.”
It meant squat to me and I angrily trashed the certificate afterwards. Then…I went looking for answers. I swore I would never again be placed in a position where I could not defend myself.
These were among the first truths I learned. Admittedly after years of slumming.
It would be a decade more before I came into much more accurate knowledge.