Factory Roush vs. Roush Clone--Buyer Beware?

[B] I'm glad Mr D is now saying his car is not a real Roush. It is still a nice car and I like it.

LilRoush,

What I said is that I don't call "MY CAR" anything! It is a Roush build! I simply don't think you should get upset if a owner of a Authorized Roush Shop "major" build includes windshield banners, dash plaques, etc. on his Mustang. Only the very least informed ignorants will think it is a Factory Roush Serial Numbered Car like yours.

If a owner of a "Cloned" '61 Fuel Injected Corvette that is exactly the same in parts, etc. as an "original factory built fuel injected car" says, "I have a "Fuel Injected" Corvette, those that have an original don't have to get their shorts in a knot and say, "No you don't! You have a non original Fuel Injected Corvette that has had all the parts of a Fuel Injected Corvette added to it after it left the factory! To many it is unnecessary snobbery unless the car is being misrepresented to cheat someone!

NCRS Judges cannot tell if the car below is original or not, because it is identical in every way to an original. I would not misrepresent it to those willing to pay four to ten times as much to be able to say this is a documented original fuel injected Corvette. Frankly, I would rather have five identical "clones" than one original for the same investment, but that is everyone's individual choice!

My point is that your car could be called a "Serial Numbered Factory Roush while the other type might be called a "Roush Authorized Shop Build". It acknowleges the quality and Ford/Roush warrantee of a major build from a Roush Authorized Dealer and it separates it from some basically stock Mustang with Roush decals. It is not about demeaning a Factory Roush or saying they are the same. It is much like a "Factory built Shelby" and an after market Shelby Conversion as done by Shelby of Las Vegas! The conversions are often not like a Factory Shelby, but they get a Shelby serial number! When I was at Shelby of Las Vegas one of their builds was around $10K and another was $20K. Obviously they were not the same. The $10K conversion was certainly not based on performance, but it still got the name and serial number!

My car has no Roush looks at all, ....... but it does have Roush performance and I think Jack Roush would be fine with that! I have a video tape of Jack Roush showing a Roush Performance build with Roush Supercharger, exhaust, brakes, and suspension. I doubt Jack Roush would have taken the $15K to $20K for the after market build at a Roush Authorized Shop and then said, "Don't you dare call your car a Roush!" From what I saw on TV, I think he appreciates and supports all Roush builds! He set up his business to promote doing just what I did, as well as buying the Factory Roush you have! Let's not nitpick each others Roush builds! Life's too short! Anyone that thinks a car like mine is a Factory Serial Numbered Roush is completely ignorant about Mustangs in general!

When I see a beautiful woman I absolutely have to verify she's a natural blonde, or obviously I won't be able to ever appreciate her looks! Duh! Somehow that makes sense with cars! Talk about missing the point! Duh! Here's a Clone designated as original by more than quite a few NCRS judges! No, I don't enter it in NCRS shows! When I built it I just made sure it was impossible to differentiate it from an original! Why? Because if you build a clone get every single thing right, or why bother!

Think about this: If the Roush name and Roush Mustang weren't a step above, why are so many here trying to copy them?
On that same note, should I not be proud of owning something so many here are trying to copy?

Actually they're not a step above that is a subjective opinion. Neither are Shelby's or Steeda's etc etc. What they are ... is the vision of a single person's image of what they translate as the perfect Mustang for them and then market this vision to other's. Their resume to sell their wares is the amount of trophies and milestones they may have historically achieved doing so with a Track car used as the prototype for the "copies" produced for the consumer Market. But, that does not make you a trophy winner or a performance oriented driver. It makes you the buyer of someone else's vision. And if you like what that concept is and don't want to spend the inflated costs for these limited productions from the mind of these established figures then you might want to copy a bit of it or all of it and in the end have your vision of what that perfect car is for you. In the end there is more value in it for you. Either way you're still faced with convincing others to buy into that vision in order to sell it.

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Cruizin.... I've never said anything to promote my car being greater than a Roush clone - or any other Mustang. I love talking to, interacting with and helping other Mustang lovers who modify their cars.

I actually get that. So I apologize for even suggesting it.

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I have been trying to clarify for others what a REAL Roush is vs an owner/shop build. I have never said one is better than the other - only that they are different when looking at resale value of an authentic vs clone. If you read my old posts, you'll see I LOVE Roush clones/copies etc... I almost bought one. In fact (as I have posted), one of the nicest Mustangs I've ever seen is a 2002 Roush S2 clone.

I also get this from all you've written... By the same token you've also qualified a clone as good or better than the real thing, and I'm sure under a critical eye you might find it's different in many more ways considered either better than or lesser than the real deal, but in the end the Value is greater for what you get on that investment. Which only reinforces that these special team certified vehicles aren't really very special or unachievable by the rest of us. The end value is really what you're willing to spend on it. And as collector myself ...you'll often find yourself forced to sit on what you feel is valuable for a very long time when you're looking to sell it. simply because over time the actual value in it...really isn't there. The only people who will buy into it are the ones who feel the same way you do. And in this age of millennials with a lot more brains and common sense. The Collector market just isn't what it used to be.

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B's car is the same in my opinion. Yes, it's a super nice car - I even posted that in his thread. But it lacks the core parts of the Roush he's claiming to clone. I point blank asked him about it. It says Roush Stage 3 on it, yet it has none of the core Roush Stage 3 parts. As of right now, it's not even a Stage 1 clone.
You saying it's just as much a Roush as mine is flat out laughable. Other than Roush stickers and little things, it lacks the body, the full suspension, the wheels, the power, the interior....and yes, the serial number.

B's car is a project. It's his love and joy and likely is just the start. When he adds the Brakes, suspension and the power mods.... it's likely going to be as good a clone as the one you considered buying. And it will be a "better" Value than buying the real deal. Heck for only a 5k out of pocket he's pretty far ahead of the game where he's at now.

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....50 years from now a serialized and documented Roush Mustang and a Mustang with Roush stickers and accessories aren't going to pull the same value. That doesn't mean they aren't cool cars or the owners are bad in any way. It's strickly in regard to value down the road (which is what this thread is about).

Collectors seem to think there is something special with a certified vehicle. Again this is subjective and only dictated by the collectors and what they're willing to spend. The one's with more money than brains can cause the pricing to trend up for any specific variant for any number of very fickle reasons. When in reality ... most of these cars are not game changers or milestones of historical significance. For the current lot of Roush.... 50 years from now they should cost less than what they are worth now. They just aren't a game changer. Nor are most late model s197, sn95 Shelby's, Cobra's... Etc etc.

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I'm not an elitest or a snob of any type. I'm a stickler for FACTS and REALITY. I love that you are calling me names. You guys stick to those personal attacks, as clearly you have no facts to back up your thought process.

Well, if you use the facts to suggest to others that they need to remove something from their own vision.... then that is contrary to what you may think...and is an Elitist mentality driven by having Knowledge or Certifications or other qualifiers you believe give you the right to make that suggestion. As an Example I also remarked on B's Replica.... not to slam him but to let him know if he was really going to go for the look at this point to pull it off without popping the hood... He needs to get the OEM Tires which are Cooper Zeon RS3-S AND... the OEM brakes which ore STOPTECH. I also warned him about the ROush owner crowd that would give him a hard way to go for what he's doing. I'll tell you from experience...some real sticklers to details would go as far as to maliciously key his car. While others would just tell him to remove things from it, as if they have any right to do so. (sound familiar)

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You ASSUME I paid extra for my car for a name on it, and try to belittle me for it. Again, you would be WRONG. Stop to consider that I might have less into buying mine than others posting in this thread to create a copy. You also sit here and claim the owner builds are more unqiue than buying one off the lot. Both of my Roush cars have been highly modified by me - making them unique to me as per my personal taste and needs out of the cars. We're all the same in that regard.

Yes I can only assume here, there was no mention of what you actually spent for it. But, if you were not concerned with overpaying for it then I can guess it was not a valuable collector car? And if you're Modifying it anyway then you've strayed away from what the intended vision for that car was. Which would make it fair to say you've changed or altered it, which in the collector world also devalues it. And in the real world makes it no longer a Roush original vehicle. Which would mean...B's car is just as much a Roush as your own.(see how that works)

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I'm not here to call people names or belittle them - and I don't. I'm here to put FACTS out there so people have the correct information. If you get personally offened, so be it. Block me, don't read my information/posts, click the little red X in the corner of the window and move on. I'm glad Mr D is now saying his car is not a real Roush. It is still a nice car and I like it.

I get that. I also respect your knowledge. Nor would I want to block you. Debate is good food for thought and it is opportunity to see that the only perspective with any merit isn't always your own for any number of reasons. Providing information is very different from dictating standards. That's where an education can be blurred into elitism.

If a owner of a "Cloned" '61 Fuel Injected Corvette that is exactly the same in parts, etc. as an "original factory built fuel injected car" says, "I have a "Fuel Injected" Corvette, those that have an original don't have to get their shorts in a knot and say, "No you don't! You have a non original Fuel Injected Corvette that has had all the parts of a Fuel Injected Corvette added to it after it left the factory! To many it is unnecessary snobbery unless the car is being misrepresented to cheat someone!

Saying you have a fuel injected corvette is not like saying you have a " '61 Fuelie", as yes you have a fuel injected corvette. It would be like adding fuel injection to a 1932 ford and saying you have a FI 1932 ford, cause you do. But saying you have a roush/authorized roush build/clone/etc mustang just because you put on a roushcharger is wrong. You have a roushcharged mustang NO MATTER WHO INSTALLED IT.

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Originally Posted by Mr. D

It is much like a "Factory built Shelby" and an after market Shelby Conversion as done by Shelby of Las Vegas! The conversions are often not like a Factory Shelby, but they get a Shelby serial number! When I was at Shelby of Las Vegas one of their builds was around $10K and another was $20K. Obviously they were not the same. The $10K conversion was certainly not based on performance, but it still got the name and serial number!

There is no such thing as a factory build shelby anymore. They are all conversions and that is the only way to get a true Shelby car. Now, with that said, the Ford built GT500s are recognized in the Shelby registry as a authentic Shelby. But, a TRUE Shelby built/modified car will come with a dash plaque with a serial number. So unless you bought a 06-07 Shelby GTH or 07-08 Shelby GT,or 08-09 GT500KR the only way to get the plaque WITH A SERIAL NUMBER is to send your car "aftermarket" to be converted with either the GT/SC, CS6, CS8, Terlingua, GT350, or GT500 SuperSnake package, or register your FORD built GT500 with them.

Saying you have a fuel injected corvette is not like saying you have a " '61 Fuelie", as yes you have a fuel injected corvette. It would be like adding fuel injection to a 1932 ford and saying you have a FI 1932 ford, cause you do. But saying you have a roush/authorized roush build/clone/etc mustang just because you put on a roushcharger is wrong. You have a roushcharged mustang NO MATTER WHO INSTALLED IT.

Symantecs in the vocabulary here PNY.... He can simply say my corvette is setup just like a 61' Fuelie. The conversation pans out from there.

Or "Yeppers, this is a Roush Modified Mustang". Which it is and the conversation pans out from there.

In fact for the benefit of LilRoush claiming a Roush CAI will void a warranty.... That's not applicable if Ford installs it. And they do install them. Which means... simply put an OEM CAI back on ...take it to a Ford shop and pay them to install it.

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There is no such thing as a factory build shelby anymore. They are all conversions and that is the only way to get a true Shelby car. Now, with that said, the Ford built GT500s are recognized in the Shelby registry as a authentic Shelby. But, a TRUE Shelby built/modified car will come with a dash plaque with a serial number. So unless you bought a 06-07 Shelby GTH or 07-08 Shelby GT,or 08-09 GT500KR the only way to get the plaque WITH A SERIAL NUMBER is to send your car "aftermarket" to be converted with either the GT/SC, CS6, CS8, Terlingua, GT350, or GT500 SuperSnake package, or register your FORD built GT500 with them.

Again symantecs. You can still find all the available parts and commission whomever you feel is qualified to build it. Whether a Shelby Team or not.

I'll again go the the Roush example since he's still alive. Mr. D could have commissioned his own build anyway he liked it..bumped into Jack Roush at any number of events and politely asked him to Autograph his vehicle. And Photograph the event.

In the end what he has is something pretty special. But, that does not necessarilly increase the value of his vehicle. Unless you're a nutty collector that is. ;-)

To Apply this to a Shelby... it would require an autograph of the entire special team on any given day where a win was achieved... with photographic proof to record the event....Boom. again somethng special for some nutty collector.

For Arguement's sake... PNY...If you build your own one off custom and decide to do another one.... Why not slap a serial number on it to track your own builds?

All this amounts to in the real world is a Registry to track the whereabouts of these builds, how many hands they've swapped through and how many years they've survived to provide a baseline of measure to suggest just how few or many there are.

Again for the nutty collectors. The true value is still of course...int the eye of the beholder. Since any current spec vehicle will likely have better more modern amenities and performance. Nostalgia is a really open area for appraisal and one professional opinion will be different from another, therefore subjective from that individual perspective...like collecting Artwork...which is what I like to do. That value is only what you can convince others of. Not everyone gives a crap about a Picasso until they figure out how much they can possibly sell it for. The problem then becomes finding someone willing to buy it for what you're asking.

Authentication helps to sell it. But does it really make it valuable....again that's personal taste and open to interpretation. As a buyer you tend to go with the low averages to maximize your perceived value at very little investment. As a seller you want to go with the higher Averages to Maximize your return from your initial investment.

Again...in the age of Millennials with a lot more common sense and a true sense of value.... The collector Market is really the land of people with more money than brains.

Symantecs in the vocabulary here PNY.... He can simply say my corvette is setup just like a 61' Fuelie. The conversation pans out from there.

Or "Yeppers, this is a Roush Modified Mustang". Which it is and the conversation pans out from there.

In fact for the benefit of LilRoush claiming a Roush CAI will void a warranty.... That's not applicable if Ford installs it. And they do install them. Which means... simply put an OEM CAI back on ...take it to a Ford shop and pay them to install it.

(LilRoush is right about this issue, but of course if I took my Mustang in for a Ford warrantee it would have the stock airbox on it! The CAI adds some extra HP and requires a separate tune, but is not part of the Ford?Roush agreement. If I'm not abusing my Mustang, I'd be able to sleep just fine if they don't know I run the CAI!)

Again symantecs. You can still find all the available parts and commission whomever you feel is qualified to build it. Whether a Shelby Team or not.

I'll again go the the Roush example since he's still alive. Mr. D could have commissioned his own build anyway he liked it..bumped into Jack Roush at any number of events and politely asked him to Autograph his vehicle. And Photograph the event.

In the end what he has is something pretty special. But, that does not necessarilly increase the value of his vehicle. Unless you're a nutty collector that is. ;-)

To Apply this to a Shelby... it would require an autograph of the entire special team on any given day where a win was achieved... with photographic proof to record the event....Boom. again somethng special for some nutty collector.

For Arguement's sake... PNY...If you build your own one off custom and decide to do another one.... Why not slap a serial number on it to track your own builds?

(Then I'd have a factory serial numbered "Mr. D" Mustang and no one better call their Mustang a "Mr. D" without my serial number plate Right?! LOL!)

All this amounts to in the real world is a Registry to track the whereabouts of these builds, how many hands they've swapped through and how many years they've survived to provide a baseline of measure to suggest just how few or many there are.

Again for the nutty collectors. The true value is still of course...int the eye of the beholder. Since any current spec vehicle will likely have better more modern amenities and performance. Nostalgia is a really open area for appraisal and one professional opinion will be different from another, therefore subjective from that individual perspective...like collecting Artwork...which is what I like to do. That value is only what you can convince others of. Not everyone gives a crap about a Picasso until they figure out how much they can possibly sell it for. The problem then becomes finding someone willing to buy it for what you're asking.

Authentication helps to sell it. But does it really make it valuable....again that's personal taste and open to interpretation. As a buyer you tend to go with the low averages to maximize your perceived value at very little investment. As a seller you want to go with the higher Averages to Maximize your return from your initial investment.

Again...in the age of Millennials with a lot more common sense and a true sense of value.... The collector Market is really the land of people with more money than brains.

When I sell my Mustang I suspect the buyer will have looked at the price of a used '08 Shelby and then look at the price of my Roush Modified Mustang and think it's a good deal based on "bang for the buck performance". I suspect it will sell to the guy who likes Shelbys, but is not into them to the degree as a guy on this forum. If I was looking for a used stock Mustang, I'd have a hard time passing up my Mustang with only 10K miles on it! After driving my car it's hard to go back to a stock GT I may find out pretty soon, because I think I'd like to build a 5.0L Automatic with a supercharger, big brakes and upgraded shocks! The guy I buy Toyotas from at minimum deals moved to my local Ford dealer. Cool!

Question: What differences are there between a GT and a GT Premium? I know about: radio, Bluetooth, cloth seats...... but what other differences are there?

I'm thinking about getting a regular GT with "Recaro Cloth seats since I don't care about Bluetooth and Sirius Radio in this car! Downsides????

I have three reasons for having a Mustang built at a Roush Authorized Dealer rather than buying a finished customized Roush, Shelby, Saleen or whatever that is solely based only on my personal taste because they are all great cars:

1. No dealer in my area will sell a GT 500 under full list price! Someone will always pay the full price! Who can blame them for making more money? Since I don't want GT 500 suspension and would likely change it for around town ride. I'd rather get a major discount on a GT and do a 575 HP 5.0L Coyote Roush supercharger build, with big brakes and Bilstein shocks. (Calif. Approved)

2. Since I'm getting old (71) and my wife likes to heavy foot my cars, I think next time I want an automatic at 575 HP! More relaxing for old folks in traffic .......... they still roll along pretty quickly from 0 to 70!

Here's a Link to an interesting find.... 1969 Mint condition GT 500 with 8,500 original miles and all supporting manuals.

The owner died with no family to inherit any of his items. Now to be sold in auction for the highest bid. The expectations are to exceed 100k.

The original price $5245.00 USD.

If you ask me .... Not worth 100k. Just from a value perspective.... The vehicle is not up to par with today 's standards in every category. And if I attempt to make it so... I've then altered it and once again devalued it. So from a practical perspective it's a POS from yesteryear that I would need to maintain and can't really enjoy.

In a nutshell it's worthless to me. And according to the original invoice... It's value is $5k. It's used and old. Yep. This would be a case where one of Mr. D's 1969 GT 500 clones would likely be a better car with modern spec parts and performance.

So the two modern cars Mr. D gave as Examples are far better in every way. Are safe and can perform. Thus fun to drive. And don't need to be kept in constant form to maintain a value only a nutty collector would see.

PNY. This is what is meant by subjective. You have a value based on nostalgia and rarity, but the value in the actual item....isn't really there. Thus fodder for collector's with more Money than brains. Even Mr. D's vision of what is ideal.... Is not a major fail. It's just his vision and can be enjoyed more than just a wax job and maybe a careful drive around the block to maintain the "mint" factor.

In a nutshell it's worthless to me. And according to the original invoice... It's value is $5k. It's used and old. Yep. This would be a case where one of Mr. D's 1969 GT 500 clones would likely be a better car with modern spec parts and performance.

So the two modern cars Mr. D gave as Examples are far better in every way.

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Actually this is a poor example as if it was one of his "clones" it would be identical and therefore have the same specs as the original 69, therefore it would be no safer and no more modern

Actually this is a poor example as if it was one of his "clones" it would be identical and therefore have the same specs as the original 69, therefore it would be no safer and no more modern

YES....And Neither worth 100k. But the clone does not devalue with modern parts added in fact it would be more valuable(See how that works).

In fact as a measure of true value the clone is actually a better investment with modern specs than an all original. Again...the Original car devalues with any improvements. Yet some nutty collector will "FEEL' for nostalgic reasons that an old POS is worth 100K.

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