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i used to be a waitress at a restaurant near a convention hotel.. Let me tell you the MTNA conventions were the best.. the happiest participants ever. They were so fun to wait on because they were so excited and having fun.

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accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

Looking at them briefly, it seems they have an unusual construction, which means teachers (who are on a budget) are going to be wary of purchasing them, especially if they're expensive.

If they're not priced competitively with Yamaha and Boston, it's going to be a tough sell to teachers.

That being said, MTNA is probably the largest convention, although NCKP gets a decent number to attend.

MENC is largely made up of public school teachers, many of whom make purchasing decisions regarding pianos, so if Lomence pianos are inexpensive and rugged enough to survive in a public school, it may be worth attending.

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"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

Thanks for the input!Sounds like the conventions might be a great route to help build brand awareness and let teachers get a feel of the piano and its quality.

The pianos are priced between $8995 to $9995 as MSRP and are either 48.5" or 50". Slightly lower than Yamaha U1's I believe.

Schools are definitely a significant market for Lomence pianos.If you've seen a few of the pictures and think about young children in a music class setting, why on earth would a school use a black or brown traditional-looking piano? In every classroom, the walls are saturated with visuals that are appropriate according to the level of the students in that room. Why not have a piano that will keep kids excited about going to music class and wanting to get their own chance at trying out the cool piano.

The larger conferences generally have piano displays. We even have them at the state level conferences. However, your best bet may be to head to NAMM and if your firm has a European rep, Musikmesse.

FWIW, looking at the current offerings of Lomence pianos, I consider none of them suitable as a serious studio teaching instrument. Of course, the instrument has to be a quality instrument, but only a few makes offer a case configuration which is amenable to teaching. By this I mean, the piano desk configuration. The ideal is the one Steinway came up with and implemented in their Boston model UP-118S. Music, notes, paper, pencils, markers, etc., can be supported the full width of the instrument. A few other manufacturers make similarly useful instruments.

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"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

I understand your input on the piano desk configuration. It is difficult to identify, but the music rest shoulder is quite deep, enough to easily accommodate a hymn book even. You probably refer moreso to the length not running left to right a more substantial distance, and this has been addressed with changes coming down the pipes so to speak.

As for quality, some of the 'piano greats' of the PTG (Pianos Technician Guild) sat down at NAMM 2012 to give them a try, and they were given stamps of approval in every case as capable, decent instruments.

As for quality, some of the 'piano greats' of the PTG (Pianos Technician Guild) sat down at NAMM 2012 to give them a try, and they were given stamps of approval in every case as capable, decent instruments.

Not questioning the build quality, but as I will be at the Frankfurt Musikmesse in just a few short weeks, I'll certainly try one.

The piano market for teachers is very small compared to the overall market. Our needs are somewhat different, which is what I was addressing. BTW, I like to use my pencil to tap rhythms and beats on the arm of the piano as the student is playing. This causes spot wear and tear on the instrument. I suspect a teacher would be unlikely to feel quite so free with a "pretty" furniture type finish.

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"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

In general, it's more of a trade show than anything else. I haven't attended any NAMMs so I cannot offer you a comparison between the two. I like to attend the Messe because it was something I frequently did while living in Germany. The emphasis in recent years has leaned more and more to stage production, so if you're a performing musician who gets into the technical aspect of production, or have a side business in the recording arts (as I record school groups, mostly as a favor to friends) this is a great place for getting ideas. But I suspect NAMM could serve the same purpose.

Last year, I was bitterly disappointed as the major European piano makers had boycotted the Messe. Why, I don't know. I was really nice to get hands on with all the brands, in all the different sizes. Hopefully, they'll be back this year. And this year will probably be my last, as long distance travel is becoming difficult for me. I also spent the better part of one day just perusing the music publishers. Lots of editions you've never heard of, with music from all over the world.

In general, my opinion is the average American or Canadian teacher would be better served making it to a state level or national level pedagogy conference, where the focus is strictly on the art of teaching. Many of these conferences have at least decent representation from N. American publishers and distributors of the larger European, S. American and Asian publishing houses.

Oh, I should probably add for newer PW members that I have family near Frankfurt, so my expenses aren't much more than traveling within the USA.

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"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

the piano desk configuration. The ideal is the one Steinway came up with and implemented in their Boston model UP-118S. Music, notes, paper, pencils, markers, etc., can be supported the full width of the instrument.

John, I'm intrigued by this comment since I'm forever dropping my pencils on the floor and joking that someone needs to invent a pull-out 'piano desk' for people like me! I had a look online at pictures of the UP-118S but can't tell what you're referring to; do you mind clarifying?

John, this is what I mean about the piano desk. As you can see, from right to left: students assignment notebook. Music we're working on. Wise saying by Bach. Plenty of room on top for necessary junk to entertain parents and siblings.

BTW, my teaching piano is just to the right; you can see my student syllabus guide in the lower RH corner of the pix.

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"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

The Frankfurt Musikmesse is Europe's version of the NAMM show.There are actually three such shows covering the globe with a fourth initiating itself for the first time this year:Europe - Frankfurt MusikmesseNorth America - Winter NAMM Show (Anaheim, CA)Asia - Shanghai Music Show - (Shanghai, China) ...and starting this year - NAMM Musikmesse Russia (Moscow)

I believe the USA NAMM Show is the only one which does not include any days at all for the general public. All the others offer 1 or 2 days open to anyone and everyone.

There is very little, if anything, directed specifically for instrumental teachers/instructors at any of these shows. It is more about the actual musical products, new models being introduced and seminars on the industry and doing business in the music industry.

I'm not at all interested in how a piano looks. All I'm interested in is how it functions and how it sounds.

Without intending any offense whatsoever, can I play devil's advocate and ask you Minniemay:

If you were to buy your child a bicycle would you also be 'not at all interested in how it looks?' Would your child adopt it conceptually as their own, be drawn to ride it often, and get the maximum enjoyment and satisfaction if it had no appeal to them as a child whatsoever?

In a general sense, why has the piano industry dug its heels in with no cosmetic evolutions for over 100 years? Why are we seeing so many other activities catch the interest of our children? For their functionality? .....or are these other activities more attractive then grandma's old clunker or that shiny black piano that a child perceives as the fine dining room furniture that no one is allowed to touch?

Back 100 years, pianos were cool - in the eyes of children also! Today, yes, many things compete for our children's attention. If pianos want to survive, they better be packaged in such a way that children of today will see them as fun and cool. If this happens, these children will grow up and purchase the more refined black grand piano. If this doesn't happen, a generation from now there will be no market for the traditional piano because no one knows or cares how to play it.

I'm not really interested in students who see the piano as a novel toy. Students who experience the wonder of music-making are the ones who stay in lessons. They don't need something fancy-looking to do that.

I get what you're saying.I guess I am left wondering one thing - Assuming quality and price are equivalent, if a student were to come along who stays in lessons because they experience the wonder of music-making, but desires a piano that to them is very appealing because of its aesthetics, would this be alright in your eyes?

I really do appreciate this dialogue as I consider it an opportunity to obtain information much like a focus group would provide.

currawong
6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 6025
Loc: Down Under

Originally Posted By: newgeneration

I guess I am left wondering one thing - Assuming quality and price are equivalent, if a student were to come along who stays in lessons because they experience the wonder of music-making, but desires a piano that to them is very appealing because of its aesthetics, would this be alright in your eyes?

I wonder would parents think that it might be a gimmick and that the child might tire of what they might view as a "novelty" instrument?I'm just thinking of a fad for coloured violins which happened when my daughter was learning violin. It didn't seem to last, where I am, anyway. Of course there wasn't the element of seeing inside. Not that there's much to see inside a violin.

I'm not really interested in students who see the piano as a novel toy. Students who experience the wonder of music-making are the ones who stay in lessons. They don't need something fancy-looking to do that.

I've been reading two threads. In one there is the implication that having a piano with an unusual color will make a child feel it is his very own, and that this will cause a child to practice. What gets a child to practice are:- good guidance by a teacher, which makes practicing rewarding since there are cumulative small successes / enjoyment- the right kind of support by parents- an attitude by the child, which to some measure springs from the first- a well functioning instrument As a selling point here: if a new teacher were to suggest that I buy an instrument because its color would induce my child to practice, I would question that teacher's priorities. In recommending an instrument, I expect the teacher to be talking about durability, responsiveness to the touch of the young pianist, ease of maintenance. Now that window with the visible hammers: that is actually something which is both useful and interesting.

Then here, and in the classroom:

Quote:

If you've seen a few of the pictures and think about young children in a music class setting, why on earth would a school use a black or brown traditional-looking piano? In every classroom, the walls are saturated with visuals that are appropriate according to the level of the students in that room. Why not have a piano that will keep kids excited about going to music class and wanting to get their own chance at trying out the cool piano.

I'm trying to find the words why this bothers me so much. Are kids that shallow? Is the attraction to music mainly through bright shiny appearance? In addition, the problem is not that of trying out the piano, but of continuing to do things with that piano. The main thing again probably is maintenance and function: if it continues to work well, then it will remain attractive. Is durability mentioned anywhere? What keeps kids going probably consists of things such as a good program, enough quality instruments, small enough classroom size, good instruction by a competent teacher who gets proper support by the community and institution.

Visuals, in the classroom, are there for the purpose of instructing or remembering. The charts and whatever will have bright colors to highlight things. Desks and things students work with are more neutral. In some corners there is also a rethinking of this, because our young people are overstimulated, which is part of the reason for ADHD and hyperactivity. Does everything have to be "exciting"? How about engrossing?

What about the priorities of teachers and maybe the students and parents they serve? (What in fact are they?) Maybe this piano has features that match those priorities. It is a cool looking piano, and since pianos are not exactly invisible in the room, their appearance does play a role. But that's not all there is to a piano, and things such as practicing don't depend primarily on the appearance of the instrument.

I find this absolutely fascinating and appreciate the honesty of everyone.The reason why I am very interested in everyone's opinion on this is obviously to see if a viable market exists for such a piano.

Some information on the piano industry as a whole:So many piano manufacturer's could not survive and have had to shut down. Others had no alternative but to allow themselves to be bought out by other companies to continue operating. The only reason for this is a weakening demand for the instrument.Naturally if demand is diminishing, there is negative growth in this industry which suggest fewer people are buying pianos and taking lessons.

Yet, all of us are fully aware of the inherent benefits that are directly associated with learning to play the piano as plenty of studies have proven this over the years. North Americans have a heightened awareness of today's educational systems and that perhaps they could be improved - so generally parents with young children are indeed concerned about the academic and social growth of their kids. But still this new generation shows no interest in the common piano.

Am I correct in understanding that most of the replies have been coming from teachers who are perhaps very successful with a very low student turn-over rate..... but are quite stringent to begin with on who they accept as a student..? Only those students with a good support system from their parents and who personally appreciate music and enjoy it are being introduced and given a chance at the piano.This is a diminishing group and so small compared to the total population that they would not even register as a percentage of the total.

What about those children whose parents overlook a traditional piano because they see it as old fashioned, and the children themselves who simply overlook a traditional piano because they've never been properly introduced to the creative artistry of music (whether classical, jazz, blues, pop, whichever)? How many musicians are out there but have never touched an instrument? Is there room to attract these people at a young age, thereby increasing the appreciation for music 20-30 years from now?

What other industries are doing well that still market a product that has not changed since the early 1900's and that still utilizes the same marketing approach? I dare all of you to give this some serious thought?As teachers you may not be as involved in knowing how many pianos are bought and sold each year - that is not your primary concern. But it does help give some suggestions on what the market will be like 10-20-30 years from now for those in the music business.

I've been reading two threads. In one there is the implication that having a piano with an unusual color will make a child feel it is his very own, and that this will cause a child to practice. What gets a child to practice are:- good guidance by a teacher, which makes practicing rewarding since there are cumulative small successes / enjoyment- the right kind of support by parents- an attitude by the child, which to some measure springs from the first- a well functioning instrument

I cannot believe that none of your points include that the child them self have fun while they are taking lessons. Your first point mentions enjoyment as a result of cumulative small successes, but as a grown professional, you could have cumulative small successes at your workplace which promote some sense of satisfaction - while actually really being very unhappy because your job is simply something you do not enjoy. You will either look for somewhere else to work or be miserable.These students will quit lessons as soon as their parents allow them to.

Originally Posted By: keystring

As a selling point here: if a new teacher were to suggest that I buy an instrument because its color would induce my child to practice, I would question that teacher's priorities.

As a selling point here: if a new teacher were to suggest that I buy an instrument because its color would induce my child to practice, I would question that teacher's priorities.

I would just tell the teacher that s/he is exactly the kind of teacher I would avoid at all costs and leave it at that.

This thread is a total waste of time.

Gary I really want to make a connection between your vocation and what goes on in the piano industry.Parents come in all the time and say "We're looking for a piano for little Johnny, but we don't want to spend much money because we don't know if he will like it or not".

Right here there is a huge problem, because like you, I recognize that the proper nurturing environment for the child to typically succeed is absent. But we are making a HUGE assumption and doing a disservice to the child by assuming on their own, they will never last and this simply is not necessarily true.What I have come to realize is that for those types of buyers, it is only fair to the child to give them a piano that the child will take the most interest in. Anything less and they may stop because their peers think they are a geek for playing the piano (which they would never tell their parents, they would just say they don't like the lessons). Or they may stop right at the beginning because the piano was basically, excuse my language, a piece of junk to begin with.Conversely, if their friends came over and saw a really cool piano, and the kid showed them what they've learned so far, and their peers encourage them and envy what they are doing - hmmm, a completely different result would be achieved.

I cannot believe that none of your points include that the child them self have fun while they are taking lessons.

A child having fun is not contingent on the colour of his piano. Part of what creates that fun in the long run is having a good instructor who knows how to make that happen, and a good instrument so that he is not struggling with a piece of junk. The priorities of quality, maintenance, durability are still there. And these are the points that you are not mentioning at all. The colour being attractive certainly has merits, but not as the ONLY thing. A piano is an instrument - a device that you do something with - like the bicycle that you were writing about, or like a baseball bat, roller skates, hockey skates, art supplies. If they are well made then the child can do things with them and get better and better. If they are shoddy then the child experiences disappointment and frustration. If they are too expensive then they are inaccessible. If high maintenance then there is a problem too. Indirectly all of these things impinge upon fun. These qualities should be mentioned because they matter.

Quote:

As a selling point here: if a new teacher were to suggest that I buy an instrument because its color would induce my child to practice, I would question that teacher's priorities. ............What if it were true?

If this teacher does not believe that good guidance, and therefore success, is part of what creates practice habits, then the additional fact of piano colour would not take away from the lack of the first.

Gary I really want to make a connection between your vocation and what goes on in the piano industry.Parents come in all the time and say "We're looking for a piano for little Johnny, but we don't want to spend much money because we don't know if he will like it or not".

John, the telephone rings in the studio. A parent has just purchased a "piano" and wants lessons for Claudia. Partly curious, and partly professionally, I ask, "What did you get?" Do you know what I'm expecting to hear? Some brand of piano. Do you know what I generally hear? Some brand of electronic synthesizer. Often 48 keys, sold at Costco for $99. What exactly am I supposed to do? Tell them the salesman lied, this isn't a piano? Probably not a good idea, even though piano sales men and women have been hawking trash for five decades (at least). I should probably not be so harsh, as there are both good and not so good teachers (as this forum and many students who come here to gripe amply attest), but my experience is that piano salesmen come in all flavors, from highly professional, like at the Steinway dealership, to snake oil salesmen (I won't mention any brands).

Quote:

Am I correct in understanding that most of the replies have been coming from teachers who are perhaps very successful with a very low student turn-over rate..... but are quite stringent to begin with on who they accept as a student..? Only those students with a good support system from their parents and who personally appreciate music and enjoy it are being introduced and given a chance at the piano.

Speaking for myself and myself only, I will take any and all students who commit to paying the tuition. However, it is true that my tuition point is such that it automatically weeds out unserious students. That's not the purpose of my tuition point. My tuition is set to cover my expenses and provide me with a living, not to encourage/discourage students, but the unintended consequence of having a professional salary for yourself is that you do become selective.

When you first posted on this forum, I assumed that you were interested in learning what piano teachers needed in the way of instruments. Obviously, I was mistaken. You'd probably get more helpful responses over in the pianist or beginning pianist forums.

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"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

John, the telephone rings in the studio. A parent has just purchased a "piano" and wants lessons for Claudia. Partly curious, and partly professionally, I ask, "What did you get?" Do you know what I'm expecting to hear? Some brand of piano. Do you know what I generally hear? Some brand of electronic synthesizer. Often 48 keys, sold at Costco for $99.

It's pretty rare for us to learn Claudia's new piano sold around $10,000 with tax. If I learned a family spent that much on a first piano, I'd be ecstatic. And no doubt I would forget to ask what color it was, and whether the sharps were made out of lucite! (I'm sure I speak for piano teachers in Olympia, Washington as well.)

John, the telephone rings in the studio. A parent has just purchased a "piano" and wants lessons for Claudia. Partly curious, and partly professionally, I ask, "What did you get?" Do you know what I'm expecting to hear? Some brand of piano. Do you know what I generally hear? Some brand of electronic synthesizer. Often 48 keys, sold at Costco for $99.

It's pretty rare for us to learn Claudia's new piano sold around $10,000 with tax. If I learned a family spent that much on a first piano, I'd be ecstatic. And no doubt I would forget to ask what color it was, and whether the sharps were made out of lucite! (I'm sure I speak for piano teachers in Olympia, Washington as well.)

Peter, that wasn't my point. Just to be clear, the piano makers/sellers have brought this situation on us by selling non-pianos as pianos AND by telling parents that the student's first piano doesn't need to be quality. In fact, the better the instrument at the start, the more likely the student is to enjoy their studies. BTW, I have enjoyed referrals from S&S and other dealers of quality pianos in the area, so it actually does happen, but not as often as either of us would like.

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"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA