To cut to the quick, Heinlein was a right wing loon who thought superior people didn't have to follow standard morals, especially about sex. When desegregation came around, he stopped being interested in the real world and dived into his navel. His earlier stuff was better because he hadn't purged himself of left-wing influences yet. (Social Credit, his first, unacknowledged, wife) The juveniles benefit from restraining his natural impulses and using his talent for exposition. (Calling exposition an infodump is a tactic used by people who can't write interesting exposition.)

Well, I find his stuff very interesting, if not to be taken entirely seriously. But he wasn't a Right Wing loon-- more of a strange kind of Libertarian. He believed in individual liberty and opposed organized religion. He certainly believed in sexual freedom. He believed in a meritocracy. Stranger In A Strange Land, remember, was embraced by the 60s counterculture. I think of him as kind of like Ellison-- I only agree with him maybe half the time, but I like reading him almost all the time.

We're waiting for tmosler to get back to us about her Babylon 5 viewing and keeping the thread warm while we wait.

At one point in my youth I had read everything than Harlan had published but I wouldn't bother with any of it now. I'm sure it stands up better to time than Heinlein's claptrap though. Still even back then Dangerous Visions (which I realize he didn't write, but anthologized) was a bunch of OMG WE'RE HAVING SEX wankery.

Well, I find his stuff very interesting, if not to be taken entirely seriously. But he wasn't a Right Wing loon-- more of a strange kind of Libertarian. He believed in individual liberty and opposed organized religion. He certainly believed in sexual freedom. He believed in a meritocracy. Stranger In A Strange Land, remember, was embraced by the 60s counterculture. I think of him as kind of like Ellison-- I only agree with him maybe half the time, but I like reading him almost all the time.

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Yes, it is less embarrassing if we try to pass off one of SF's most revered writers as an eccentric or contrarian. Read his West Point speech. Also, I see all libertarians as rightwing and loony.

For Jan, I'll repeat: Babylon 5 handled its themes, which overlapped so strongly with DS9, much, much better. And I don't see how anyone who thought DS9 was deep could think Babylon 5 was, or vice versa.

Well, I find his stuff very interesting, if not to be taken entirely seriously. But he wasn't a Right Wing loon-- more of a strange kind of Libertarian. He believed in individual liberty and opposed organized religion. He certainly believed in sexual freedom. He believed in a meritocracy. Stranger In A Strange Land, remember, was embraced by the 60s counterculture. I think of him as kind of like Ellison-- I only agree with him maybe half the time, but I like reading him almost all the time.

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Yes, it is less embarrassing if we try to pass off one of SF's most revered writers as an eccentric or contrarian. Read his West Point speech. Also, I see all libertarians as rightwing and loony.

Well, I find his stuff very interesting, if not to be taken entirely seriously. But he wasn't a Right Wing loon-- more of a strange kind of Libertarian. He believed in individual liberty and opposed organized religion. He certainly believed in sexual freedom. He believed in a meritocracy. Stranger In A Strange Land, remember, was embraced by the 60s counterculture. I think of him as kind of like Ellison-- I only agree with him maybe half the time, but I like reading him almost all the time.

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Yes, it is less embarrassing if we try to pass off one of SF's most revered writers as an eccentric or contrarian. Read his West Point speech. Also, I see all libertarians as rightwing and loony.

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Help me. I googled his west point speech but can't seem to find it.

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Heinlein attended Annapolis, the Naval Academy, so he probably made a speech or two there.

We're waiting for tmosler to get back to us about her Babylon 5 viewing and keeping the thread warm while we wait.

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It would work out MUCH better if you "kept it warm" with b5-oriented content.

For example, how many folks here can recall how they started their B5 viewing? Was it at the urging of a friend or a commercial or a convention. etc?

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On topic, that's a thought. Back from Japan briefly, I caught Deathwalker. The opening where NaToth went after her was great. And the slow reveal of what Deathwalker was to many of the parties in the episode was great. Other episodes like 'Voice in the Wilderness' with Ivanova's Rules to the guys in the shuttle, even Garibaldi's 'zip-button' routine were great. I'd long grown tired of TNG Trek's perfect humanity, and every episode needing to be meaningful and full of meaningful conversation. Folks in B5 had silly human conversations, played practical jokes on each other, and could be stupid, venal, crass, and silly, but still rise to higher moments of kindness, and humanity. The B5 characters came across as interesting and believable folks that I wanted to see the story of.

Every species in the galaxy had been surgically altered on a genetic level, which sure as custard, would be passed down forever through bloodlines making humans submissive and agreeable to Vorlons.

Sheridan is only capable of being as asshole to Kosh when he is shielded from the vorlonocity of Kosh by his encounter suit.

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So the DS9 parallels continue. I think the natural evolution of mankind got away from the Vorlons who were a little too cocky after a few millennium.

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The Vorlons and Shadows were treating the species of the galaxy as their giant ant farm. That's the point of G'Kar's speech to Sinclair's girlfriend after all. As Lorien put it, they were no longer interested in helping the younger races, instead, the Vorlons and Shadows had become interested in proving who was right. They were an Internet argument made manifest. The younger races were the hapless victims of titanic trolls. Whether the recognition of the Vorlons was genetic (which was Sheridan's assumption) or it was a telepathic ability of the Vorlons (which his exhaustion after saving Sinclair implies) or it is a combination is hard to tell.

We're waiting for tmosler to get back to us about her Babylon 5 viewing and keeping the thread warm while we wait.

Click to expand...

It would work out MUCH better if you "kept it warm" with b5-oriented content.

For example, how many folks here can recall how they started their B5 viewing? Was it at the urging of a friend or a commercial or a convention. etc?

Click to expand...

I had an Amiga computer, and since B5 special effects were being created on the Amiga platform with the still-under-development Video Toaster 3D board and LightWave software, renders of the station and the Starfuries were showing up in Amiga-centric magazines long before The Gathering aired. I attended a meeting of an Amiga users group just to see a few minutes of B5 effects footage. I couldn't WAIT for the pilot to air, and I made sure I didn't miss it.