UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
-------------------------x
CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER :
et al., :
:
Plaintiffs :
:
v. : Civil No. 96-2123 (RCL)
:
FEDERAL BUREAU OF :
INVESTIGATION et al., :
:
Defendants. : Afternoon Session
-------------------------x
Washington, D.C.
Thursday, June 3, 1999
Continued deposition of
DEBORAH L. GORHAM
a witness, called for examination by counsel
for Plaintiffs pursuant to notice and
agreement of counsel, continuing at
approximately 1:13 p.m. at the offices of
Judicial Watch, Inc., 501 School Street S.W.,
Washington, D.C., before Lynell C.S. Abbott,
notary public in and for the District of
Columbia, when were present on behalf on the
respective parties:
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2 On behalf of Plaintiffs:
3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE
THOMAS FITTON, ESQUIRE
4 Judicial Watch, Inc.
501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725
5 Washington, D.C. 20024
(202) 646-5172
6
7 On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of
Investigation (FBI) and Executive
8 Office of the President (EOP):
9 JAMES J. GILLIGAN, ESQUIRE
ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE
10 Federal Programs Branch
Civil Division
11 United States Department of Justice
901 E Street N.W., 9th Floor
12 Washington, D.C. 20004
(202) 514-5302
13
14 On behalf of Defendant Federal Bureau of
Investigation:
15
JON D. PIFER, ESQUIRE
16 Office of General Counsel
Federal Bureau of Investigation
17 935 Pennsylvania Avenue N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20535
18 (202) 324-9665
19
20
21
22
3
1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D):
2 On behalf of Defendant Hillary Rodham Clinton:
3 PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE
FRANK DiSTEFANO, ESQUIRE
4 Williams & Connolly
725 12th Street N.W.
5 Washington, D.C. 20005
(202) 434-5175
6
7 On behalf of The White House:
8 SHELLY PETERSON, ESQUIRE
Special Assistant Counsel to the President
9 The White House
Washington, D.C. 20500
10 (202) 456-5079
11
On behalf of Defendant Nussbaum:
12
ROBERT B. MAZUR, ESQUIRE
13 Wachtell Lipton Rosen & Katz
51 West 52nd Street
14 New York, New York 10019-6618
(212) 403-1000
15
16 On behalf of Deponent:
17 DAVID E. MILLS, ESQUIRE
STEVEN E. WAGNER, ESQUIRE
18 Dow, Lohnes & Albertson
1200 New Hampshire Avenue, N.W., Suite 800
19 Washington, D.C. 20036
(202) 776-2865
20
21
* * * * *
22
4
1 C O N T E N T S
2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
3 Counsel for Plaintiffs 7
4 Counsel for FBI and EOP 477
5 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY:
6 Counsel for Plaintiffs 482
7 * Questions on page 52, line 8; page 131, line 4;
page 145, line 2; page 216, line 14; page 219,
8 line 20; page 243, line 8; page 292, line 1 and
page 292, line 18 marked per request.
9
GORHAM DEPOSITION EXHIBITS:
10
No. 1 - Notice of Deposition 7
11
No. 2 - November 8, 1993, Letter, 11
12 Gorham to Nussbaum
13 No. 3 - November 8, 1993, Letter, 11
Nussbaum to Gorham
14
No. 4 - Notes 11
15
No. 5 - Arkansas Democrat Gazette, 11
16 Article
17 No. 6 - 1993, United States Government 12
Appointment Book
18
No. 7 - Drawing 25
19
No. 8 - Miniscript, Tripp Deposition 307
20
No. 9 - Investigation of Whitewater, 316
21
No. 10 - Diagram 381
22
* * * * *
5
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning.
3 This is the video deposition of Deborah
4 Gorham taken by counsel for the Plaintiff in
5 the matter of Cara Leslie Alexander v. the
6 Federal Bureau of Investigation, et al., in
7 the U.S. District Court for the District of
8 Columbia, Case No. 96-2123, held in the
9 offices of Judicial Watch, 501 School Street,
10 Southwest, Washington, D.C. on this date,
11 June 3, 1999 and at the time indicated on the
12 video screen which is 10:07 a.m.
13 My name is Sylvanus Holley. I'm
14 the videographer. The court reporter today
15 is Lynell Abbott from the firm of Beta
16 Reporting. Will counsel now introduce
17 themselves.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman,
19 General Counsel and Chairman of Judicial
20 Watch.
21 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, president
22 of Judicial Watch.
6
1 MR. MILLS: David Mills at Dow,
2 Lohnes & Albertson, representing Deborah
3 Gorham.
4 MR. WAGNER: Steven Wagner at Dow,
5 Lohnes & Albertson, representing Deborah
6 Gorham.
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Elizabeth Shapiro
8 from the Department of Justice, representing
9 the Executive Office of the President and the
10 FBI.
11 MR. GILLIGAN: James Gilligan, also
12 with the Department of Justice and also
13 representing EOP and the FBI.
14 MR. GAFFNEY: Paul Gaffney,
15 Williams & Connolly, on behalf of the First
16 Lady. With me today to my rear left is Frank
17 DiStefano, a summer associate at Williams &
18 Connolly.
19 MR. MAZUR: I'm Bob Mazur, Wachtell
20 Lipton Rosen & Katz, and I represent Bernard
21 Nussbaum.
22 MS. BENJAMIN: Tracy Benjamin,
7
1 summer associate.
2 MR. PIFER: John Pifer, FBI General
3 Counsel's office.
4 MS. PETERSON: Michelle Peterson,
5 White House Counsel's office.
6 THE WITNESS: Will the court
7 reporter please swear in the witness?
8 Whereupon,
9 DEBORAH L. GORHAM
10 was called as a witness and, having been
11 first duly sworn was examined and testified
12 as follows:
13 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Gorham, I'm going
15 to show you what I'll ask the court reporter to
16 mark as Exhibit 1.
17 (Gorham Deposition Exhibit No. 1
18 was marked for identification.)
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Exhibit 1 is Plaintiffs' Notice of
21 Deposition of Deborah Gorham. Attached to it
22 is a subpoena requiring your attendance here
8
1 today on June 3, 1999. Attached to that
2 subpoena is a request for documents which is
3 listed as Exhibit A. Have you seen this
4 document before?
5 A I have.
6 Q When did you see it?
7 A I reviewed it again last night.
8 Q Did you have an opportunity to
9 review the request for documents which is
10 appended to the subpoena?
11 A I did.
12 Q Did you search for the documents
13 that you were asked to bring to this
14 deposition?
15 A I did not have to search for any
16 documents. I had none at home to bring in.
17 Q Do you have documents elsewhere
18 that may be responsive to the subpoena?
19 A Yes, I do.
20 MR. MILLS: I can respond to that.
21 This is David Mills for Deborah Gorham. We
22 do have documents to produce, Mr. Klayman, to
9
1 you today, consisting of a resignation letter
2 by Deborah Gorham, a letter by Bernie
3 Nussbaum to Deborah Gorham accepting the
4 resignation, a printout of about a half a
5 page of some text, and a copy of an article
6 about Vince Foster.
7 In addition, I have a copy of a
8 United States Government Appointment Book
9 from 1993 that mostly contains information
10 personal to Ms. Gorham, but she did keep it
11 while she was at the government in The White
12 House Counsel's suite.
13 We have redacted from that Social
14 Security numbers of individuals who were
15 seeking clearance to The White House. Other
16 than that, there's been nothing redacted. We
17 are producing them to you now. That's all
18 there is that is responsive to the subpoena.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: All right, well,
20 thank you.
21 MR. MILLS: We have copies for
22 other counsel, if you'd like.
10
1 MR. GAFFNEY: Thank you.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Oh, so we have copies
3 for the other counsel as well.
4 MR. MILLS: Yes, sir. I
5 distributed those.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Do we have an extra
7 copy that we can use to mark as an exhibit to
8 this deposition?
9 MR. MILLS: I'm afraid I've
10 distributed all the copies that we have other
11 than our own.
12 MR. MAZUR: I'll yield.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Maybe we can borrow
14 Mr. Mazur's. Thank you. Can we borrow the
15 appointment book, too?
16 I'll make another copy for you at
17 the break. Thank you. Let's just run
18 through this and put it on the record and
19 mark them.
20 The first document that you are
21 producing is a letter on White House
22 stationery from yourself, Deborah Gorham,
11
1 your letter of resignation of November 8th.
2 We'll mark that as Exhibit 2.
3 (Gorham Deposition Exhibit No. 2
4 was marked for identification.)
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Then we'll mark as
6 Exhibit 3 a letter of November 8, 1993 from
7 Bernard Nussbaum accepting your resignation.
8 (Gorham Deposition Exhibit No. 3
9 was marked for identification.)
10 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll mark as
11 Exhibit 4 a document which starts at the top
12 "Service is the rent we pay for living."
13 (Gorham Deposition Exhibit No. 4
14 was marked for identification.)
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Exhibit 5, an article
16 from the Arkansas Democrat Gazette,
17 purportedly, of July 23, 1993.
18 (Gorham Deposition Exhibit No. 5
19 was marked for identification.)
20 MR. KLAYMAN: United States
21 Government Appointment Book, 1993, we'll make
22 that Exhibit 6.
12
1 (Gorham Deposition Exhibit No. 6
2 was marked for identification.)
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Ms. Gorham, I take it you didn't
5 find any other documents responsive to our
6 subpoena?
7 A I have no other documents.
8 Q Those are all the documents you
9 left The White House with?
10 A That is correct.
11 Q Did you take from The White House
12 during the time you were employed there any
13 documents?
14 A Other than the ones you have?
15 Q Yes.
16 A No, I did not.
17 Q All of these documents were kept by
18 you since the time you left The White House?
19 A That's correct.
20 Q The document which is labeled
21 Exhibit 4, what is that? It just has some
22 kind of statements on it, "Service is the
13
1 rent we pay for living. Service means you
2 get as well as you give."
3 A These are snippets or excerpts from
4 two speeches that Mr. Foster prepared.
5 Q You typed them for him?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q We'll come back to the documents in
8 a bit. Tell me if you would, Ms. Gorham,
9 what your opinion is of Linda Tripp.
10 A Linda is a lady who probably is a
11 person -- Linda is a lady who in life really
12 has very little good to say about anyone.
13 Q How did you come to that
14 conclusion?
15 A By working with her.
16 Q Can you provide some specific
17 examples?
18 A Linda had a very negative attitude
19 about individuals, and was always certainly
20 vocal and verbalized about how she felt about
21 people.
22 Q What specifically did she say about
14
1 people that you and Linda worked with?
2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q With as much specificity as
5 possible, tell me anything you remember.
6 MR. MILLS: Objection, compound,
7 form.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just trying to
9 move it along.
10 MR. MILLS: The witness can only
11 answer one question at a time, that's all.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Tell me everything you remember
14 that Linda said about people that you worked
15 with at The White House that was negative.
16 A Linda would comment on people
17 regarding their dress, regarding their
18 competency level, regarding their
19 intelligence level. But I cannot remember
20 the specific incidents or nature of the
21 actions. This was her general demeanor.
22 Q Tell me what if anything Linda
15
1 Tripp said about Vince Foster.
2 A I don't recall her saying anything
3 negative about Vince to me.
4 Q Tell me what if anything Linda said
5 about Bernard Nussbaum.
6 A She never said anything negative to
7 me.
8 Q Tell me what if anything Linda
9 Tripp said about William Kennedy.
10 A She never said anything to me.
11 Q Tell me what if anything Linda
12 Tripp said about Betsy Pond.
13 A Linda would comment on her
14 demeanor, her attendance, her skill level.
15 Q Anything else?
16 A Not that I can think of at the
17 moment.
18 Q What did Linda say about her --
19 MR. MILLS: I'm sorry. Did the
20 reporter hear her response?
21 (The reporter read the record as
22 requested.)
16
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q What did Linda say about her
3 demeanor?
4 A Linda would always insinuate that
5 Betsy was a very flighty person, using that
6 exact word.
7 Q What else did she say?
8 A That's all that comes to mind right
9 now.
10 Q What if anything did Linda Tripp
11 say about Betsy Pond's attendance?
12 A That she was lacking in reporting
13 to work everyday.
14 Q Did she say anything else about
15 Betsy Pond's attendance?
16 A Not that I recall at the moment.
17 Q Was Betsy Pond late to work
18 frequently?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Based on your observations.
22 A No, I would say not.
17
1 Q You never saw her late even once?
2 A Oh, I'm sure she was late once, but
3 it was not frequent.
4 Q Can you remember her being late
5 more than once?
6 A Possibly, yes.
7 Q How many times? Approximate.
8 A I couldn't render an answer how
9 many times approximate.
10 Q Frequently?
11 A No.
12 Q Did Linda Tripp ever offer an
13 opinion as to why Betsy Pond was late?
14 A No, she didn't.
15 Q Do you have any facts yourself as
16 to why Betsy Pond was late?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q You can respond.
20 A I'm sure that one time probably her
21 car needed repair or perhaps if she was
22 feeling ill.
18
1 Q What if anything did Linda Tripp
2 say about Betsy Pond's skill level?
3 A I don't believe that Linda thought
4 that she had a very high skill level in
5 administrative matters or matters such as
6 typing.
7 Q What specifically did Linda Tripp
8 say?
9 A I don't recall at the moment.
10 Q Did you observe Betsy Pond's skill
11 level?
12 A Yes, I did.
13 Q Do you have an opinion as to her
14 skill level?
15 A I do.
16 Q What is that?
17 A I thought she was very competent.
18 Q Did Linda Tripp have anything else
19 to say about Betsy Pond?
20 A Not that I can recall at the
21 moment.
22 Q Did Linda Tripp ever express any
19
1 opinion or make any statements about William
2 Kennedy?
3 A She did not to me.
4 Q Stephen Waudby?
5 A She did not to me.
6 Q Did she express any opinion about
7 anybody else in The White House Counsel's
8 office?
9 A She did.
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
11 MR. MILLS: Objection.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q She did not.
14 A She did.
15 Q Who else?
16 A The people that we worked with on
17 staff.
18 Q Such as?
19 A Tom Castleton.
20 Q What was his position at the time?
21 A He was a staff assistant.
22 Q What did Linda Tripp say about him?
20
1 A She would comment in the same form
2 and fashion.
3 Q What do you mean by same?
4 A Regarding his skill level.
5 Q Tell me what she said. Let's just
6 run through it. Skill level.
7 A She would find particular specific
8 times when his work was inaccurate and then
9 she would comment on it.
10 Q What did she comment on?
11 A That it was inaccurate.
12 Q Anything more?
13 A I'm sure she did.
14 Q Who else did she talk about?
15 A There was another young woman who
16 worked as a staff assistant in our office as
17 well. Her name fails me at the moment.
18 Q Do you remember anybody else?
19 A No.
20 Q Is that person's name Cynthia?
21 A No.
22 Q Did she ever comment on Craig
21
1 Livingstone?
2 A Not to me.
3 Q Steven Neuwirth?
4 A Yes.
5 Q What did she say about Steven
6 Neuwirth?
7 A I don't -- she really did not like
8 him.
9 Q Did she say why?
10 A She probably thought that he was
11 abrasive.
12 Q Was he abrasive?
13 A Not to me.
14 Q Did you ever see him being abrasive
15 to anybody else?
16 A I didn't notice.
17 Q Did she ever comment about Anthony
18 Marceca?
19 A Not to me.
20 Q Did Linda Tripp ever comment about
21 Hillary Clinton?
22 A I'm sure she did.
22
1 Q What did she say?
2 A I don't recall.
3 Q Bruce Lindsey?
4 A The fact that she knew Bruce for a
5 long time.
6 Q Did she say anything more about
7 Bruce Lindsey?
8 A I'm sure she did, I don't recall.
9 Q Did she ever comment about Cheryl
10 Mills?
11 A Not that I recall.
12 Q Marsha Scott?
13 A I don't recall what she said.
14 Q Jane Sherburne?
15 A Not to me.
16 Q President Clinton?
17 A I'm sure she commented about the
18 President.
19 Q What did she say?
20 A I don't recall.
21 Q Lloyd Cutler?
22 A Not to me.
23
1 Q Abner Mikva?
2 A Not to me.
3 Q Jack Quinn.
4 A Not to me.
5 Q David Watkins?
6 A I'm sure she commented about him.
7 Q What did she say?
8 A I don't recall.
9 Q Harold Ickes?
10 A Not to me.
11 Q Maggie Williams?
12 A Not to me.
13 Q Catherine Cornelius?
14 A I don't recall.
15 Q Harry Tomasson?
16 A I don't recall.
17 Q Joel Klein?
18 A Not to me.
19 Q How long did you work with Linda
20 Tripp?
21 A In direct contact, from
22 approximately the 1st of June until
24
1 September 1st -- September 4.
2 Q 1st of June of '93 to September 1st
3 of '93.
4 A That's correct.
5 Q Did you work in close proximity to
6 her during that period of time?
7 A I did.
8 Q Where was that proximity?
9 A In White House Counsel's office.
10 Q You initially worked with her
11 outside of the office of Bernard Nussbaum.
12 Correct?
13 A That's correct.
14 Q Where did you sit in relation to
15 Linda Tripp?
16 A As in distance, is that what you
17 are speaking of?
18 Q There were two desks there?
19 A No, there were four.
20 Q Four desks.
21 A Right.
22 Q Who sat at those four desks?
25
1 A Betsy Pond, myself, Linda Tripp,
2 Tom Castleton.
3 Q How long were the four of you
4 sitting together at those four desks?
5 A Over a period of time?
6 Q Yes.
7 A Approximately four months.
8 Q Can you draw us a diagram, we won't
9 hold you to scale or anything like that,
10 where everybody sat outside of Nussbaum's
11 office?
12 A I could.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll make that the
14 next exhibit, 7.
15 (Gorham Deposition Exhibit No. 7
16 was marked for identification.)
17 MR. FITTON: I'll get you a pen.
18 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: If you want, we can
20 make copies. Would anyone else like copies?
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes.
22 MR. GILLIGAN: Yes, we would.
26
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's take a little
2 break and make copies.
3 THE WITNESS: We're going off video
4 record at 10:25.
5 (Recess)
6 THE WITNESS: We're back on video
7 record at 10:28.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Ms. Gorham, looking at this diagram
10 that you drew, about how far away in terms of
11 feet were you from the desk of Linda Tripp?
12 A I would say approximately six feet.
13 Q Now, during that period of time did
14 you work on some matters with Linda Tripp in
15 The White House Counsel's office?
16 A No.
17 Q Were your duties and
18 responsibilities totally separate?
19 A That's correct.
20 Q Can you explain what your duties
21 and responsibilities were as opposed to
22 Ms. Tripp's?
27
1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
2 THE WITNESS: I worked for the late
3 Vincent Foster as his secretary. Linda
4 worked as an executive assistant to Bernie
5 Nussbaum, along with Betsy Pond.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q But were there things that
8 Mr. Foster was doing that overlapped with
9 some of the things that Mr. Nussbaum was
10 doing where you as assistants to Mr. Foster
11 and Mr. Nussbaum, respectively, would have to
12 interact?
13 MR. MILLS: Objection to form.
14 THE WITNESS: I would have no idea
15 what Mr. Nussbaum was working on. I only
16 knew what Mr. Foster was working on.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q You are aware Mr. Foster
19 interviewed Ms. Tripp for her job. Correct?
20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
22 THE WITNESS: No I'm not aware that
28
1 he did interview her.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q During the period that you worked
4 in this proximity with Ms. Tripp, I take it
5 from time to time during the day you would
6 talk to her across the desk.
7 A That's correct.
8 Q What are some of the things that
9 you'd talk about?
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
11 THE WITNESS: Certainly just the
12 incidental everyday professional life,
13 "There's a telephone call for you," or "I'm
14 going to lunch."
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Did you talk about the things you
17 both were working on?
18 A No.
19 Q Never?
20 A I did not.
21 Q Did she?
22 A No.
29
1 Q Would you take incoming phone calls
2 for Mr. Foster?
3 A I did.
4 Q Could other people sitting in that
5 room hear those incoming phone calls?
6 A Could they hear the phones ringing?
7 Q Yes.
8 A Yes.
9 Q If you were taking a message from
10 somebody, could other people overhear that?
11 A If they listened.
12 Q Vice versa, I take it.
13 A I could overhear them if I
14 listened.
15 Q Now, during the time that you
16 worked in this close proximity what were
17 Ms. Pond's and Ms. Castleton's duties and
18 responsibilities during this four-month
19 period?
20 MR. MILLS: Objection to form.
21 THE WITNESS: That's Mr. Castleton.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
30
1 Q Yes.
2 A Ms. Pond worked for Mr. Nussbaum
3 and provided assistant secretarial support.
4 Mr. Castleton worked with our incoming mail.
5 Q At some point in time you
6 transferred from that office over to the
7 OEOB. Correct?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q This office was in the West Wing
10 that's described in Exhibit 7.
11 A Yes.
12 Q Then you went to the OEOB.
13 A Yes.
14 Q That coincided, that was after the
15 death of Vince Foster?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Why did you change offices?
18 A Virtually I had no one to work with
19 and no work to do. Mr. Kennedy's detail was
20 returning back to their government agency,
21 and so I offered to help him out.
22 Q After you transferred you then went
31
1 to work for Mr. Kennedy.
2 A No. Actually, I went to work for
3 Cheryl Mills' office for the first month.
4 Q What did you do for Cheryl Mills?
5 A Answered telephones, took phone
6 messages.
7 Q Anything else?
8 A Not that I recall.
9 Q Then what happened after the first
10 month?
11 A I went to work over at
12 Mr. Kennedy's office when his detail ended.
13 Q What did you do for him?
14 A Answered phones, very minimal
15 clerical duties.
16 Q When you went to work for
17 Mr. Kennedy, was anybody working with you in
18 working for Mr. Kennedy?
19 A Do you mean were there other people
20 in the office?
21 Q Yes.
22 A Yes.
32
1 Q Who was there?
2 A Mr. Kennedy, a volunteer that he
3 had.
4 Q Do you remember that volunteer's
5 name?
6 A I believe her last name is Raglund.
7 Q Ragley?
8 A Raglund.
9 Q Raglund?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q What's her first name?
12 A Possibly Jean or Jeannine, I don't
13 rail.
14 Q Do you know where Ms. Raglund is
15 today?
16 A No, I don't.
17 Q Is she still at The White House?
18 A I have no idea.
19 Q What did Ms. Raglund do for
20 Mr. Kennedy?
21 A Answered telephones.
22 Q Who else was working in that
33
1 office?
2 A Beth Nolan, two young gentlemen who
3 were assistants or legal assistants, another
4 detailed attorney from another government
5 agency.
6 Q Who were the two assistants?
7 A I don't recall their names.
8 Q Do you remember their first names?
9 A Perhaps Edgar.
10 Q Who were the detailees from another
11 agency?
12 A I don't know who they were.
13 Q Anyone else working in that office?
14 A Not that I recall.
15 Q Was Betsy Pond working in the
16 office at the time?
17 A That I was?
18 Q Yes.
19 A No.
20 Q When you moved over to the OEOB,
21 did Linda Tripp sometimes come up to visit
22 with you?
34
1 A No.
2 Q Did she ever come up there to visit
3 with anyone?
4 A I have no idea.
5 Q You never saw her up there?
6 A I don't recall seeing her there.
7 Q Based on your experience working
8 with Ms. Tripp, is it your opinion that she's
9 an honest person or a dishonest person?
10 A I'm sorry. I can't formulate an
11 opinion whether she's honest or dishonest.
12 Q Did she ever say anything to you
13 which you know to be untrue?
14 A Yes.
15 Q What was that?
16 A When she would make statements of
17 someone's competency level.
18 Q Who was she talking about that you
19 understood to be untrue?
20 A Betsy Pond, Tom Castleton.
21 Q So you are saying that her opinion
22 of their competency level was something which
35
1 was false.
2 A That's correct.
3 Q Do you believe that Ms. Tripp is
4 entitled to her opinion?
5 A I do.
6 Q Do you believe that everything that
7 you perceive to be true other people should
8 perceive to be true?
9 MR. MILLS: Objection to form.
10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q You can respond.
14 A I'm sorry. I don't understand your
15 question.
16 Q What I'm saying is is that you
17 perceive those two people to be competent.
18 Correct?
19 A That's correct.
20 Q But you will concede that other
21 people can form different opinions. Correct?
22 A Correct.
36
1 Q That doesn't mean that what those
2 other people perceive is false.
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Correct?
6 A I'm sorry, I still don't
7 understand.
8 Q Well, let's say suppose I tell you
9 that Mr. Fitton is incompetent and you have a
10 different opinion, that he's competent. Are
11 you telling me that my opinion is false? Is
12 that what you are trying to say with regard
13 to Ms. Tripp?
14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
15 THE WITNESS: Only in your
16 perspective.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q It's a question of perception.
19 Correct?
20 A Exactly.
21 Q But it doesn't mean that someone's
22 perspective is false; it's just simply their
37
1 perspective. Correct?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q So do you wish to amend your
4 response with regard to Ms. Tripp?
5 MR. MILLS: Objection.
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
7 THE WITNESS: No.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q You don't.
10 A I do not.
11 Q Tell me what it is Ms. Tripp said
12 about Ms. Pond and Mr. Castleton which
13 constitutes something which is false.
14 A She would comment on their
15 competency level and their skill.
16 Q Tell me what it was about their
17 competency level that in your view is false?
18 A They couldn't type, they couldn't
19 answer the phones correctly.
20 Q What specifically about their
21 typing do you consider to be false?
22 A That they could even type.
38
1 Q So Ms. Tripp told you that they
2 could not type at all.
3 A That's correct.
4 Q That they would not even know how
5 to put their hands on a keyboard of a
6 typewriter?
7 A I don't know what her basis was,
8 but they could certainly type.
9 Q Ms. Tripp, you know, was an
10 experienced secretary. Correct?
11 A I don't know that.
12 Q You knew that Ms. Tripp could type?
13 A She could type.
14 Q When she said they couldn't type,
15 did it dawn on you that perhaps she was
16 talking about the speed of their typing?
17 A Absolutely.
18 MR. MILLS: Objection to form.
19 That's argumentative.
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Join in the
21 objection.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
39
1 Q You can respond. So you took it to
2 mean they couldn't type in terms of their
3 speed.
4 A That's correct.
5 Q How quickly could Ms. Pond type?
6 A I have no idea.
7 Q How were you therefore able to form
8 an opinion that Ms. Tripp was telling a
9 falsehood?
10 A It's just simply my opinion.
11 Q Ms. Tripp's entitled to hers.
12 Correct?
13 A Absolutely.
14 Q That doesn't mean she's telling you
15 a falsehood. Correct?
16 A It's her opinion.
17 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
18 answered.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q You can respond?
21 A It's her opinion.
22 Q It doesn't mean she's saying
40
1 something which is false, does it?
2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
3 MR. MILLS: Objection.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q You can respond.
6 A Would you reask the question?
7 Q Because Ms. Tripp has an opinion
8 about the speed of Ms. Pond's typing and you
9 have a different opinion, that doesn't mean
10 that either of you are not telling the truth.
11 Correct?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q So therefore you have no basis to
14 believe that Ms. Tripp lied to you about
15 Ms. Pond's typing?
16 MR. MILLS: Objection to form.
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Correct?
20 A I'm sorry. I'm confused.
21 Q If you concede that two people are
22 entitled to an opinion, in this case the
41
1 speed of Ms. Pond's typing, then you have no
2 basis to say that Ms. Tripp's opinion is a
3 falsehood. Correct?
4 A I'm sorry. I'm very confused as to
5 where you're leading this to.
6 Q You just have to answer the
7 questions. You don't have to worry about
8 where I'm leading you. Please answer the
9 question.
10 A I'm sorry, I can't. I'm confused.
11 Q Tell me something else that
12 Ms. Tripp said that was false about Ms. Pond
13 or Mr. Castleton?
14 A I think I've already told you.
15 Q What was that?
16 A Regarding their competency level
17 and skills.
18 Q Tell me specifically what Ms. Tripp
19 said about the competency levels and skills
20 of Ms. Pond and Mr. Castleton?
21 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
22 answered.
42
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Other than typing; we just went
3 over typing.
4 A I cannot remember the specifics at
5 this time.
6 Q You just know it was false.
7 A In my opinion, it was false.
8 Q Tell me why it was false.
9 A It's not how I viewed them. They
10 were typists and they could answer a phone.
11 Q Are you saying that Ms. Tripp is
12 not entitled to her opinion as to their
13 competency?
14 MR. MILLS: Objection,
15 argumentative.
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q You can respond.
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Join in the
20 objection, and asked and answered.
21 MR. MILLS: Repetitive.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
43
1 Q You can respond.
2 MR. MILLS: This is antagonistic,
3 Mr. Klayman.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not. It's very
5 straightforward and my tone is quite measured
6 here.
7 MR. MILLS: It's repetitive, and
8 it's asked and answered. That's the basis
9 for my objection.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Well, it's not asked and answered.
12 I'll ask that you respond.
13 A Could you repeat the question,
14 please?
15 Q Is Ms. Tripp entitled to her
16 opinion about the competency of Ms. Pond and
17 Mr. Castleton?
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and
19 answered.
20 MR. MILLS: Same objections.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, she is.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
44
1 Q Are you entitled to your opinion?
2 A Yes.
3 Q You will concede that opinions may
4 differ. Correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Simply because opinions may differ
7 doesn't mean that either you or Ms. Tripp are
8 saying anything that's false. Correct?
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection,
10 argumentative.
11 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
12 THE WITNESS: Correct.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q So you have no basis to claim that
15 Ms. Tripp's opinion of the competency of
16 Mr. Castleton and Ms. Pond is false.
17 Correct?
18 MR. MILLS: Objection.
19 THE WITNESS: Only in my
20 perspective.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q You don't like Linda Tripp very
45
1 much, do you?
2 A I don't dislike her.
3 Q Do you have an opinion about
4 Ms. Tripp's involvement in the recent
5 Lewinsky scandal?
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q You can respond.
9 A What is it that you are saying?
10 Q Have you ever expressed an opinion
11 as to Linda Tripp's involvement in the recent
12 Lewinsky scandal?
13 A I have.
14 Q What was that opinion?
15 A I thought it was unnecessary that
16 she tape Ms. Lewinsky.
17 Q What do you mean by unnecessary?
18 A I thought that it was illegal.
19 Q How did you arrive at that opinion?
20 A Through mental thought.
21 Q Well, what was illegal about it?
22 A I'm sorry, I retract that. I
46
1 didn't think it was illegal. I thought it
2 was unethical.
3 Q What was the basis of your opinion
4 that it was unethical?
5 A She didn't advise the young woman
6 that she was being taped.
7 Q If Ms. Lewinsky was asking
8 Ms. Tripp to commit a crime, in your opinion
9 would she be permitted as a matter of ethics
10 to tape Ms. Lewinsky?
11 MR. MILLS: Objection, form.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form and
13 relevancy.
14 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I'm
15 confused.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q It's a very simple question. If
18 Ms. Lewinsky was talking to Ms. Tripp and
19 asking Ms. Tripp to commit a crime such as
20 obstructing justice, in your opinion would it
21 be ethical for Ms. Tripp to tape that
22 conversation?
47
1 MR. MILLS: I'm going to object to
2 that question and the characterization that
3 it's a simple question.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q You can respond.
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Also, object to the
7 form as hypothetical.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q You can respond.
10 A I'm sorry. How is this pertinent?
11 Q Please answer my question.
12 A Would you explain it again?
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Please read the
14 question back.
15 (The reporter read the record as
16 requested.)
17 THE WITNESS: In my opinion, I'm
18 sorry, I'd have to ponder that.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Why would you have to ponder that?
21 A I would have to think about it.
22 Q Why?
48
1 MR. MILLS: Objection to why she
2 would have to think about it.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Please respond.
5 A I would like to take time to think
6 about that.
7 Q Tell me why you can't give me an
8 answer now.
9 MR. MILLS: Objection.
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection,
11 argumentative.
12 MR. MILLS: This is badgering the
13 witness and argumentative.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not badgering.
15 MR. MILLS: It is badgering.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Please respond.
18 A Like most ethical questions, I'd
19 like to take the time to think about it.
20 Q The reason you want to think about
21 it is because under your concept of ethics
22 you don't think it's right to rat on anybody.
49
1 Correct?
2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
3 MR. MILLS: Objection.
4 THE WITNESS: No, I don't feel that
5 way.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q You do believe, however, that it's
8 wrong to broach the confidence of anybody
9 that you work with. Correct?
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
11 MR. MILLS: Objection,
12 hypothetical, object to the form.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q You can respond.
15 A I do.
16 Q You believe that it's unethical to
17 broach the confidence under any circumstance.
18 A I don't know that that would apply
19 in all instances.
20 Q What instances would it not apply
21 to?
22 MR. MILLS: Objection,
50
1 hypothetical.
2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q What instances would it not apply
5 to?
6 A I suppose in a matter of a serious
7 crime such as murder.
8 Q Is there a crime of a lesser degree
9 than murder that it would apply to?
10 MR. MILLS: Objection, same
11 objections.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q You can respond.
15 A I would have to sit and ponder
16 that.
17 Q Suppose it was a crime relating to
18 violating the privacy rights of somebody?
19 MR. MILLS: Same objections.
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Please respond.
51
1 A I'm sorry, again, the question
2 would be again regarding privacy matters?
3 Q Yeah. Suppose, for instance, that
4 the crime involved was violating the privacy
5 rights of American citizens. Would it be
6 legitimate to broach the confidence of
7 somebody you worked with under those
8 circumstances?
9 MR. MILLS: I object. I don't even
10 understand the question.
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Object, hypothetical.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Please respond.
14 A I'm sorry. I really don't
15 understand the question.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Mills, we've gone
17 through this in a lot of different
18 depositions and I'm asking that you not make
19 that kind of an objection.
20 MR. MILLS: I'm sorry. What kind
21 of objection?
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, the
52
1 objection -- she mirrored your response
2 there. Obviously that was a way to give her
3 the answer.
4 MR. MILLS: Not correct.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: I ask you not to do
6 that again. Certify it.
7 MR. MILLS: That's not correct.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.*
9 MR. MILLS: You can certify it.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: This happens
11 routinely throughout these depositions; when
12 there's a question of some note, the attorney
13 sometimes gives the answer to the deponent.
14 I ask that you not do that in this instance.
15 MS. SHAPIRO: I object to the
16 characterization. I don't believe that
17 occurs.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll let the record
19 speak for itself.
20 MR. MILLS: Please. Please
21 continue.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Would you read back
53
1 the question?
2 (The reporter read the record as
3 requested.)
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Please respond.
6 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form
7 of the that question.
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Join in the
9 objection.
10 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I would
11 have to take more time to ponder that.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Suppose somebody you worked with
14 was violating the rights of American citizens
15 to privacy. Would you turn that person in to
16 authorities, to government authorities?
17 MR. MILLS: Objection.
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Please respond.
21 MR. MILLS: To form and relevance.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
54
1 Q Please respond.
2 A I don't know. I would have to
3 think about that.
4 Q Have you ever thought about that?
5 A No. I've never had the instance to
6 occur.
7 Q Suppose somebody you worked with in
8 a secretarial capacity or an assistant's
9 capacity had access to the personnel file of
10 someone else you worked with and he shouldn't
11 have had access to that personnel file.
12 Would you turn that person in to Federal
13 authorities?
14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
15 MR. MILLS: Objection to form and
16 relevance.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q You can respond.
19 A Are you asking if they reviewed the
20 file, is that all that you are asking? Is
21 that all that you are insinuating?
22 Q Let's say you were a secretary
55
1 working with Mr. Mills at his law firm.
2 Suppose Mr. Mills had a file that he
3 shouldn't have had, that that wasn't part of
4 his duty and responsibility to have in terms
5 of reviewing it, and it contained highly
6 private information.
7 Would you turn Mr. Mills in to
8 government authorities?
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form,
10 relevancy, hypothetical.
11 MR. MILLS: Objection.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q You can respond.
14 MR. MILLS: All the same
15 objections.
16 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I
17 would at least talk with him first about it.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Let's say that Mr. Mills had that
20 file for whatever reason and he shouldn't
21 have had that file and that file contained
22 highly personal and confidential information
56
1 about somebody else. Suppose that
2 information was used against that other
3 person. Would you turn Mr. Mills in?
4 MR. MILLS: Objection to form,
5 relevance.
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Join in the
7 objections, hypothetical.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Please respond.
10 A I would talk with Mr. Mills first
11 and then with the necessary supervisor.
12 Q Would you turn them in to
13 government authorities?
14 A I don't know. I'd have to think
15 about that.
16 Q Can you cite any other examples to
17 me where Linda Tripp was dishonest?
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and
19 answered.
20 THE WITNESS: Dishonest in what
21 way?
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
57
1 Q In any way.
2 A Specifically, no, I cannot.
3 Q Do you know of anyone who has
4 information about the honesty or dishonesty
5 of Linda Tripp?
6 A No.
7 Q When you told us earlier this
8 morning that you heard Linda Tripp talking
9 negatively about certain employees, did you
10 hear her directly or did that come through
11 somebody else?
12 A I heard it directly.
13 Q Had you ever heard things from
14 other people about what Linda Tripp was
15 saying?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q Who were those other people?
18 A Betsy Pond, of course, a secretary
19 across the hallway.
20 Q Who is the name of the secretary
21 across the hallway?
22 A Her last name was Champagne.
58
1 Q Is she still there?
2 A I have no idea.
3 Q What did Betsy Pond say that Linda
4 Tripp has said?
5 A That she mischaracterized this
6 young woman as incompetent.
7 Q What young woman?
8 A Ms. Champagne.
9 Q Did she say how?
10 A That she was not a secretary.
11 Q You took that to mean she didn't
12 have the skills of a secretary?
13 A That's correct.
14 Q Did Ms. Pond say anything else?
15 A I don't recall what else she said.
16 Q Did you ever work with
17 Ms. Champagne?
18 A I did.
19 Q In what capacity?
20 A She was a secretary, as was I.
21 Q What did you do specifically with
22 her?
59
1 A Helped her answer phones.
2 Q So the only thing you did with her
3 was to answer phones.
4 A That's correct.
5 Q You found her to be competent
6 answering phones?
7 A Certainly.
8 Q But that's not the only skill of a
9 secretary. Correct?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q You have no basis to form an
12 opinion one way or the other with regard to
13 other skills which Ms. Champagne may or may
14 not have had.
15 A No. I did not supervise her.
16 Q Did Betsy Pond say anything else
17 about Ms. Tripp?
18 A I don't recall.
19 Q Did Ms. Champagne ever say anything
20 about Ms. Tripp?
21 A Not to me.
22 Q Was there anyone else who ever said
60
1 anything about Ms. Tripp?
2 A I'm sure there was.
3 Q Can you remember who they were?
4 A I do not.
5 Q Now, you left The White House on
6 what date?
7 A The third week in November 1993.
8 Q Turning your attention to
9 Exhibit 2, this is your resignation letter.
10 Do you have a copy of that?
11 MR. FITTON: Here you go,
12 Ms. Gorham.
13 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Do you have a copy of that?
16 A Yes.
17 Q This letter which you prepared and
18 sent to Bernard Nussbaum, did you discuss
19 your resignation with him before leaving?
20 A I don't recall.
21 Q Did you ever have any discussions
22 at any time with Bernard Nussbaum about the
61
1 reasons that you left?
2 A I'm sure I did.
3 Q When did you have those
4 discussions?
5 A Perhaps when I handed it to him.
6 Q What did you say?
7 A I told him that I'm resigning and
8 accepting a position at a law firm.
9 Q What else did you say to him?
10 A I don't recall.
11 Q What did he say to you?
12 A I don't recall.
13 Q This was a pretty strong moment in
14 your life, wasn't it, when you had to resign?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
16 MR. MILLS: Objection to form.
17 THE WITNESS: Are you inferring
18 that I was forced to resign when you say I
19 had to resign?
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q I don't know. Were you forced to
22 resign?
62
1 A No.
2 Q I wasn't inferring anything. But
3 you resigned because you couldn't bear to
4 work there any more. Correct?
5 MR. MILLS: Objection.
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
7 THE WITNESS: That's incorrect.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q What's incorrect about it?
10 A That I could not, quote, "bear to
11 work there."
12 Q What's correct? Tell me the reason
13 why you resigned.
14 A I had no duties at The White House.
15 It was not what I wanted to do any longer.
16 The gentleman that I came to work for had
17 committed suicide. It was time for me to
18 return to what I enjoyed best, and that was
19 working for a law firm.
20 Q Well, the letter says, "It is with
21 great measure of sadness that I offer my
22 resignation this day. I plan to leave The
63
1 White House on Wednesday, November 17 and
2 would like to take a few days off before I
3 return to the private sector at Wilmer,
4 Cutler & Pickering." Had someone offered you
5 a job at Wilmer, Cutler & Pickering?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q Who had offered you a job?
8 A The personnel department.
9 Q Lloyd Cutler had helped arrange for
10 you to get that job?
11 A I have no idea.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the
13 form.
14 MR. MILLS: Objection.
15 THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q How did you get the job?
18 A I went through the typical process,
19 send a resume, take a typing test, have an
20 interview.
21 Q Did you know anybody at Wilmer,
22 Cutler & Pickering before you applied?
64
1 A I believe Scarlett Bates, a friend
2 of mine, worked there.
3 Q Did you know anybody else?
4 A No.
5 Q Had you ever met Lloyd Cutler?
6 A Prior to this?
7 Q Yes.
8 A No.
9 Q You then say, "I enjoyed working
10 for you and with your staff these past eight
11 months. I accepted this position in
12 February, in part, out of regard for Vince's
13 sister, Sheila, and my disposition to assist
14 this special neophyte to Washington.
15 But to be able to come to closure
16 with the death of Vince, I must retreat from
17 the constant visual reminder of his lack of
18 presence and return to a career position in a
19 local law firm. I hope we keep in touch
20 through our mutual friends, if not in
21 person."
22 Now, this letter expresses the
65
1 reason you left. Correct? Are you telling
2 me that that wasn't really the reason you
3 left?
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
5 MR. MILLS: Objection to form.
6 THE WITNESS: These are simply
7 expressions.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q What do you mean by they're simply
10 expressions?
11 A They're expressions that are used
12 in a letter.
13 Q What does that mean?
14 A Sir, what was your original
15 question?
16 Q Well, were you just trying to tell
17 Nussbaum that so you had a graceful way to
18 leave?
19 A Absolutely.
20 Q But you didn't really mean that.
21 A I meant everything I wrote here.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
66
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Well, that's the reason you left,
3 correct?
4 MR. MILLS: Objection.
5 THE WITNESS: What?
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q You couldn't bear to work in The
8 White House anymore.
9 MR. MILLS: Objection.
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form;
11 mischaracterizes.
12 THE WITNESS: I couldn't bear to
13 work in The White House any longer because
14 the person I came to work for was no longer
15 there and I had very little work that I used
16 my skills at.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q It created an emotional reaction
19 that because Vince Foster had died, you had
20 very bad memories of that whole situation and
21 that was one of the reasons why you wanted to
22 move on. Correct?
67
1 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form
2 and it's harassing the witness.
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q You can respond.
6 A No. I didn't have bad memories.
7 Q You had unpleasant memories.
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
9 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
10 THE WITNESS: It was unpleasant to
11 think that someone would take their life.
12 Since he was no longer my supervisor, there
13 was no reason for me to continue working
14 there.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q What basis do you have to believe
17 that he took his life?
18 MR. MILLS: Objection.
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
20 THE WITNESS: I believe that he
21 committed suicide.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
68
1 Q Well, on November 8, 1993 you
2 didn't know one way or the other how he died,
3 did you?
4 A I don't recall.
5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Did you believe he committed
8 suicide on November 8, 1993?
9 MR. MILLS: Objection, same
10 objections.
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Same objection.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q What caused you to believe that?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Same objection.
16 THE WITNESS: I recognized the
17 symptoms of depression in working with him.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q What symptoms were they?
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
21 MR. MILLS: Same objections.
22 THE WITNESS: He seemed sad a great
69
1 deal of the time.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Do you know why?
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
5 THE WITNESS: No.
6 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Did you discuss that with him?
9 A No.
10 Q Was he sad because of the things he
11 was working on at the time?
12 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
13 answered.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q You can respond. That was not
16 asked and answered.
17 MR. MILLS: It was asked and
18 answered.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Mills, if you
20 want to object, I would ask that you object
21 accurately. But that's not accurate.
22 MR. MILLS: It is accurate,
70
1 Mr. Klayman. You asked the general question
2 and she said she didn't know; and then you
3 asked the specific question which she
4 couldn't have known because she answered the
5 general question.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Please answer the question.
8 A Would you repeat the last question,
9 please.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Read it back.
11 (The reporter read the record as
12 requested.)
13 THE WITNESS: I have no idea what
14 he was sad about.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q He told you he was sad. Right?
17 A He did not tell me that.
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and
19 answered.
20 MR. MILLS: Same objections.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q How did you come to that
71
1 conclusion?
2 MR. MILLS: Same objections.
3 THE WITNESS: He did not smile as
4 much as he used to.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Did you mention to anyone that you
7 were noticing that Mr. Foster was sad and
8 didn't smile as much as he used to?
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
10 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
11 Same objections.
12 THE WITNESS: Not that I recall.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Did you come to believe that the
15 reason he looked sad was because he wasn't
16 enjoying his work?
17 MR. MILLS: Objection. This is
18 badgering the witness.
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Join in the
20 objection.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't understand
22 how that's badgering. Let's ask the witness
72
1 just to step out for a second. I want to
2 understand these things.
3 MR. MILLS: If you want to have the
4 witness to step out, that's fine --
5 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm seeing very
6 partisan representation here which is getting
7 to the point of absurd.
8 MR. MILLS: I don't understand
9 that. What do you mean partisan
10 representation? You are asking a woman about
11 a person who she worked for who committed
12 suicide.
13 She's obviously going to be
14 emotional about that. It's absolutely
15 irrelevant to any issue that you've raised in
16 this lawsuit and you continually and
17 repeatedly ask these questions.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: We're going to have a
19 difficult time here today, Mr. Mills, if this
20 is the way you're going to proceed. The
21 court has asked that we proceed in a very
22 civil way and a direct way.
73
1 The court has instructed counsel
2 not to make speaking objections, not to
3 insert testimony to witnesses. These are
4 simple questions. You very well know the
5 relevancy of these questions.
6 I would ask that we proceed in the
7 spirit of cooperation, not hostility and not
8 accusing me of things that I'm not doing.
9 MR. MILLS: I'm not accusing you of
10 anything you're not doing and I'm not making
11 speaking objections. You engaged me in this
12 discussion.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: This is an important
14 witness.
15 MR. MILLS: I only ask that you let
16 me finish before you speak.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Fine.
18 MR. MILLS: There is nothing
19 improper about my making objections. It's
20 the witness' entitlement to have counsel here
21 and it's my entitlement to make objections.
22 I've made those objections without making
74
1 speaking objections.
2 You have engaged me in a
3 conversation, which is your right, and I'll
4 be happy to answer you. If you don't want to
5 do that, don't ask me any questions.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not asking you
7 any questions. I'm asking you not to engage
8 in speaking objections. I'm asking you not
9 to insert yourself and make objections which
10 clearly relate to questions that are relevant
11 and you know they're relevant.
12 MR. MILLS: I don't.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm asking you to
14 proceed in a way that allows justice to be
15 done here. If we can't proceed in that way,
16 then I will respectfully ask for court
17 intervention at the earliest opportunity,
18 because this is an important witness.
19 MR. MILLS: I respect all the
20 things you've said. If you think you need
21 court intervention, that's your right. I
22 assume you know that I have a right to make
75
1 my objections. I don't think I've made any
2 improper objections.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: When you make
4 relevancy objections and insert yourself and
5 accuse me of things that I'm not doing, and
6 I'm trying to be very, very calm.
7 MR. MILLS: That's not right. I
8 didn't accuse you.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Of badgering the
10 witness and harassing the witness on a
11 clearly relevant question. That creates
12 unnecessary tension, it creates unnecessary
13 incivility, and I ask that we not proceed in
14 that way.
15 MR. MILLS: I believe that you have
16 been harassing the witness. Harassment is
17 one of the specific grounds for objection.
18 I'm entitled to object based on harassment,
19 and that's what I did.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: You may not like the
21 questions that I ask that, but that doesn't
22 mean I'm harassing the witness.
76
1 MR. MILLS: Mr. Klayman, I'm not
2 objecting to the questions I don't like.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's take a
4 two-minute break. Maybe we can all think
5 about exactly where we're going here.
6 MR. MILLS: I have no need to take
7 a two-minute break.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I am taking a
9 two-minute break.
10 MR. MILLS: We'll be waiting right
11 here for you in two minutes.
12 THE WITNESS: We're going off video
13 record at 11:03.
14 (Recess)
15 THE WITNESS: We're back on video
16 record at 11:07.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Read back the last
18 question.
19 (The reporter read the record as
20 requested.)
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to
22 relevancy.
77
1 MR. MILLS: Same objections.
2 THE WITNESS: He did not convey to
3 me whether he enjoyed his work or not.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Were there matters that he was
6 working on that you knew of that in your
7 opinion could have caused him to look sad?
8 MR. MILLS: Objection.
9 THE WITNESS: No, I do not know
10 what matters that he worked on that could
11 have caused him to be sad.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q During the time that you worked for
14 Vince Foster you were aware that Hillary
15 Clinton visited his office from time to time.
16 Correct?
17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
18 THE WITNESS: From time to time?
19 What does that mean?
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q You don't know what "time to time"
22 means?
78
1 A Would you explain it to me, please?
2 Q "From time to time" means?
3 Sometimes.
4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q "Time to time" equals "sometimes."
7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
8 THE WITNESS: I saw Mrs. Clinton
9 visit our offices.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q You saw her visit more than once?
12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
13 THE WITNESS: Possibly twice.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q More than twice?
16 A Not that I recall.
17 Q You took calls from Mrs. Clinton
18 for Mr. Foster. Correct?
19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
20 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
21 THE WITNESS: I might have.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
79
1 Q You don't remember anything about
2 taking calls?
3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
5 MR. MILLS: Objection.
6 THE WITNESS: No, I do remember
7 about taking calls but I do not recall how
8 many times Mrs. Clinton called. But they
9 were not frequent.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q So therefore you wish to amend your
12 answer that you may have; you now concede
13 that you actually took calls from
14 Mrs. Clinton?
15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
16 MR. MILLS: Objection to form.
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, harassing.
19 MR. MILLS: Agree, it's harassing.
20 THE WITNESS: I might have taken
21 one or two calls.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
80
1 Q In the entire time you worked for
2 Mr. Foster?
3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
4 THE WITNESS: To the best of my
5 memory, they were very infrequent.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q You know that Mrs. Clinton came in
8 on at least two occasions to see Mr. Foster.
9 Why did Mrs. Clinton come to see Mr. Foster?
10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
12 MR. MILLS: Objection to form.
13 THE WITNESS: I don't recall who
14 she came in to see.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Did you know why Mrs. Clinton was
17 coming to see Mr. Foster?
18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
20 THE WITNESS: If she saw
21 Mr. Foster, I would not know.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
81
1 Q Why not?
2 A I didn't ask.
3 Q If she saw Mr. Foster you wouldn't
4 know, you said?
5 A That's correct. What she came to
6 see him about, if she did.
7 Q But you knew she was seeing him?
8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
9 THE WITNESS: I don't recall who
10 she visited.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q But you knew she was down there in
13 the office.
14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
15 THE WITNESS: I certainly saw her.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q You saw her go into Mr. Foster's
18 office?
19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
20 THE WITNESS: I do not remember who
21 she came in to visit with.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
82
1 Q Did you see Mrs. Clinton go into
2 Mr. Foster's office or not?
3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
4 MR. MILLS: Objection.
5 MS. SHAPIRO: Same.
6 THE WITNESS: I do not remember.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Did you ever tell Linda Tripp why
9 Mrs. Clinton was visiting Mr. Foster?
10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
12 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
13 THE WITNESS: No.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Did you ever tell anyone why
16 Mrs. Clinton was visiting Mr. Foster?
17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
19 MR. MILLS: Objection to form.
20 THE WITNESS: No.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Did you ever tell anyone whether
83
1 Mr. Foster was working on matters concerning
2 Mr. and Mrs. Clinton?
3 A I believe once I told Linda Tripp
4 that I was helping Mr. Foster with their tax
5 return.
6 Q Anything else?
7 A No.
8 Q When did you tell Linda Tripp that?
9 A Perhaps sometime in very early
10 April.
11 Q April of '93.
12 A I'm sorry. I do not know that I
13 told Linda Tripp that. Perhaps I said that
14 to Betsy.
15 Q What were you helping Mr. Foster
16 with with regard to Mrs. Clinton's tax
17 returns?
18 MR. MILLS: Objection.
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Same objection.
20 MR. GAFFNEY: Hold on. I've got to
21 confer with the counsel's witness before we
22 go any further with this.
84
1 MR. KLAYMAN: You're conferring
2 with who?
3 MR. GAFFNEY: Counsel's witness. I
4 mean the witness' counsel.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q You can respond.
7 MR. GAFFNEY: Would you read the
8 question back, please.
9 (The reporter read the record as
10 requested.)
11 MR. GAFFNEY: Let me speak to
12 Mr. Mills again.
13 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Do you
14 mind having the question repeated?
15 (The reporter read the record as
16 requested.)
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Object to relevancy.
18 THE WITNESS: Photocopying them.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q What was Mr. Foster doing with
21 regard to Mrs. Clinton's taxes?
22 MR. MILLS: Objection.
85
1 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
3 THE WITNESS: I don't know what he
4 was doing with them.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Did you ever discuss with
7 Mr. Foster whether it was legal for him as a
8 government lawyer to be working on the
9 Clintons' taxes?
10 MR. MILLS: Objection.
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form,
12 relevancy.
13 THE WITNESS: No.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Did you yourself ever think about
16 that issue?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
18 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
19 THE WITNESS: No.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q You were aware that Mr. Foster's
22 salary was being paid for by the U.S.
86
1 taxpayers. Correct?
2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
3 MR. MILLS: Objection.
4 THE WITNESS: I assumed he received
5 a check from the Federal Government, as I
6 did.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Were you aware of the Clintons
9 paying Mr. Foster any money for services.
10 A No.
11 Q So you didn't think it was improper
12 for Mr. Foster to be spending his time paid
13 for by taxpayers working on the Clintons'
14 taxes?
15 MR. MILLS: Objection.
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
17 THE WITNESS: I did not think about
18 it.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Have you thought about it since?
21 A No.
22 Q Do you have an opinion today as to
87
1 whether that's proper or not?
2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
3 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q I'm telling you based upon the
6 facts that you just told me that Mr. Foster
7 was working on the Clintons' taxes, you
8 concede that Mr. Foster was paid, his salary
9 was paid for by U.S. taxpayers, do you have
10 an opinion today as to whether that's proper?
11 MR. MILLS: Objection to that
12 question.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy,
14 argumentative.
15 THE WITNESS: No, I do not.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q That's illegal, isn't it?
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
19 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
20 answered, harassment.
21 THE WITNESS: I do not know.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
88
1 Q You don't care.
2 MR. MILLS: Objection.
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
4 MR. MILLS: Same objections.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Correct?
7 A I would have to think about that.
8 Q Was there anything else that
9 Mr. Foster was working on that you mentioned
10 to anybody?
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
12 THE WITNESS: Not that I recall.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Or knew about. Excuse me?
15 A Not that I recall.
16 Q I think you answered that. Did you
17 ever see Mrs. Clinton in Mr. Foster's office?
18 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
19 answered.
20 THE WITNESS: Not that I remember.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Did you ever see the two of them
89
1 talking in person?
2 A Not that I remember.
3 Q Are you aware of them having had
4 any meetings?
5 A I cannot recall a meeting they had
6 together.
7 Q At the time you worked in The White
8 House you were a notary public. Correct?
9 A That's incorrect.
10 Q Have you ever been a notary public?
11 A I have.
12 Q When were you a notary public?
13 A Are you asking when my commission
14 started?
15 Q Yes.
16 A In October.
17 Q October of what?
18 A Of 1993.
19 Q Are you a notary public under the
20 laws of the District of Columbia?
21 A I am.
22 Q Are you a notary public under the
90
1 laws of any other state or jurisdiction?
2 A No.
3 Q Did you ever notarize anything for
4 Mrs. Clinton?
5 A No.
6 Q Did you ever notarize anything for
7 anyone in The White House?
8 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Same.
10 THE WITNESS: No, I don't recall
11 that I did.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Why did you become a notary public?
14 MR. MILLS: Objection.
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
16 THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Was Mr. Foster a notary public?
19 A I have no idea.
20 Q Do you know whether or not
21 Mr. Foster notarized anything for
22 Mrs. Clinton?
91
1 A I have no idea.
2 Q Do you know whether anybody else
3 did?
4 A Did what?
5 Q Notarize anything for Mrs. Clinton.
6 A I would have no idea.
7 Q When you say "I don't remember" or
8 "I don't recall," what does that mean?
9 A In what instance?
10 Q Does it mean that you have
11 absolutely no memory or you don't have
12 perfect memory?
13 A In what instance?
14 Q In any instance.
15 A I'm sorry. You would have to be
16 specific.
17 Q Well, let's use the word "I don't
18 recall." Those are your phrases. You've
19 used that a number of times today. When you
20 say "I don't recall," does that mean you
21 recall nothing?
22 A That's correct, I do not recall
92
1 anything about that particular situation that
2 you are asking about.
3 Q So you wouldn't have any
4 recollection at all.
5 A That's correct.
6 Q When you say the word "I don't
7 remember," do you mean the same thing as "I
8 don't recall"?
9 A It depends upon the question.
10 Q So if you say "I don't remember,"
11 you may have some memory but not sufficient
12 enough for you to testify to?
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
14 THE WITNESS: I think it would
15 depend upon the question that you ask me.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Can you explain what you mean by
18 that?
19 A Perhaps I should use "I don't
20 recall" in instances that I have no memory of
21 and "I don't remember," it would be for a
22 specific incident that I do not remember that
93
1 event taking place, different than "I don't
2 recall."
3 Q What I'm trying to gauge is when
4 you say "I don't remember," you have some
5 memory but it's not a great memory. Is that
6 what you mean?
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
8 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
9 THE WITNESS: With regard to?
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q A particular matter where you've
12 testified "I don't remember."
13 A Can you pick a specific question?
14 Q I can't because I wasn't aware that
15 you were making the distinction. What I'm
16 trying to gauge when you say "I don't
17 remember" does that just mean you don't
18 have 80 percent memory or you don't have 90
19 percent? Is there some kind of grade here of
20 levels of memory upon which you would testify
21 to if you exceeded that threshold below which
22 you would not testify if you didn't?
94
1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
2 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q That's what I'm trying to
5 understand.
6 A I understand that you are.
7 Q So tell me what your rule of thumb
8 is on that "I don't remember."
9 A I would have to review the
10 questions, but perhaps what I mean is that in
11 both situations "I don't recall" and "I don't
12 remember" mean the same thing.
13 Q So it means you have zero memory?
14 A I'll try to be more specific in the
15 future.
16 Q No. But that's what you meant when
17 you say "I don't remember," "I don't recall,"
18 "I have zero memory"?
19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
20 MR. MILLS: Objection to form.
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
22 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
95
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Nothing, not even a shred?
3 MR. MILLS: Objection. That's
4 harassment.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Correct?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q Have you ever testified before
9 under oath?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Where have you testified under oath
12 before?
13 A At the Senate committee and
14 Independent Counsel's office.
15 Q The Senate committee that
16 investigated the death of Vince Foster?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q Did they investigate anything else?
19 A I'd have to review the front cover
20 of my transcripts. Whitewater, I believe.
21 Q That was Senator D'Amato's
22 committee?
96
1 A Yes.
2 Q Who asked you the questions at
3 those depositions, do you remember? At that
4 testimony, rather.
5 A I believe it was their Judiciary
6 counsel.
7 Q Did you testify before a Grand Jury
8 before the Independent Counsel?
9 A Yes.
10 Q When did you testify there?
11 A I believe it was approximately
12 August of '95.
13 Q What were the subject matter of
14 your testimony? What did they ask you about?
15 Just generically.
16 A The days preceding Mr. Foster's
17 death and the days after his death.
18 Q Is that it?
19 A I believe they might have asked me
20 if I had knowledge of files in his office.
21 But at this time I can't remember what else
22 they asked.
97
1 Q Did they specifically ever ask you
2 questions about a controversy that has become
3 known as Filegate?
4 A I don't remember that they asked me
5 that, no.
6 Q Has anyone ever asked you questions
7 before today about that controversy?
8 MR. MILLS: Objection to the extent
9 it asks for privileged communications.
10 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form
11 of the question.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Other than your counsel.
14 A Regarding --
15 Q A controversy which has become
16 known as Filegate. You know what I'm talking
17 about, right?
18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
19 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form
20 of the question.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q You can respond.
98
1 A No.
2 Q You are aware of a controversy
3 about 900 or so FBI files that went from the
4 FBI to The White House that has become known
5 as Filegate?
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Has anyone ever asked you questions
10 about that before today other than your
11 counsel?
12 A About the matter of Filegate.
13 Q Yes.
14 A No.
15 Q From the date that you left The
16 White House up to today, have you talked with
17 any of the people that you worked with?
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q You can respond.
22 A That I worked with?
99
1 Q At The White House.
2 A Since the day I left The White
3 House.
4 Q Yes, up to today.
5 A Yes, I have talked with someone,
6 yes.
7 Q Who have you talked to?
8 A I spoke with Pam Barnett once.
9 Q Who is Pam Barnett?
10 A She was secretary to the First
11 Lady.
12 Q Is she still at The White House?
13 A I have no idea.
14 Q When did you talk to her?
15 A Approximately 1995.
16 Q Did you talk to her more than once?
17 A No.
18 Q Did you correspond with her in
19 writing?
20 A No.
21 Q Did you make notes of your
22 conversation?
100
1 A No.
2 Q Did you record it?
3 A No.
4 Q Who called who, you called
5 Ms. Barnett or did she call you?
6 A I called Ms. Barnett.
7 Q Where were you when you made the
8 call?
9 A At my office.
10 Q Where was that?
11 A At 1200 New Hampshire Avenue.
12 Q Is that a law firm?
13 A It is.
14 Q What law firm is that?
15 A Dow, Lohnes & Albertson.
16 Q Who were you working for at Dow,
17 Lohnes & Albertson at the time?
18 A Kevin Reed.
19 Q Do you still work for him?
20 A I do.
21 Q Mr. Reed's a partner?
22 A He is.
101
1 Q Did Mr. Reed know that you were
2 calling Pam Barnett at The White House?
3 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
4 THE WITNESS: I do not know if he
5 knew.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Why did you call Pam Barnett?
8 A I had asked Pam if the First Lady
9 was going to be in Athens at the same time my
10 daughter was.
11 Q The same time as your daughter?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q Why did you ask her that?
14 A Because my daughter was visiting
15 Athens and so was the First Lady, and I
16 thought perhaps if the First Lady was giving
17 any type of a speech that my daughter could
18 be in attendance.
19 Q How did you know Pam Barnett?
20 A I worked next-door to her.
21 Q You would frequently interact with
22 her when you worked at The White House?
102
1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
2 MR. MILLS: Objection to form.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q You had contact with her when you
5 worked at The White House?
6 A I would say good morning to her,
7 good afternoon, how are you.
8 Q You would actually sometimes
9 deliver things to her to give to
10 Mrs. Clinton. Right?
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
13 MR. MILLS: Objection to form.
14 THE WITNESS: I don't remember if I
15 did or did not.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q You may have.
18 A I may have, yes.
19 Q Ms. Barnett would sometimes deliver
20 things to you to give to Mr. Foster.
21 Correct?
22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
103
1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
2 THE WITNESS: I don't recall her
3 ever giving anything to me to deliver to him.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q During the time you worked at The
6 White House did you ever go out socially with
7 Ms. Barnett?
8 A No.
9 Q Did you ever go to lunch with her?
10 A No.
11 Q Have a drink with her after work?
12 A No.
13 Q Did you ever discuss with
14 Ms. Barnett what she did for the First Lady
15 when you worked at The White House?
16 A No.
17 Q You had met the First Lady before
18 this call with Pam Barnett in 1995. Correct?
19 A That's correct.
20 Q When did you meet her?
21 A In 1993.
22 Q What were the circumstances of
104
1 that?
2 A She walked into our offices and
3 remarked about the stain glass.
4 Q What offices were they?
5 A In the office I was located.
6 Q What, there was stain glass in
7 there?
8 A There was a piece of stain glass in
9 the window, yes.
10 Q Did you meet her on another
11 occasion? Let me back up to that. Was
12 anyone else there when she remarked about the
13 stain glass?
14 A I couldn't tell you today who was
15 standing there or sitting there at the time.
16 Q Vince Foster was there. Right?
17 A I don't remember who was there.
18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Did you meet her again?
21 A As in introduce or speak to her
22 personally?
105
1 Q Any contact with her at any time.
2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
3 THE WITNESS: I had a visual
4 contact of her when she walked by our
5 offices.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q But you never saw her beyond that?
8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q The only time you ever saw her
11 again was when she walked by your offices?
12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
13 MR. MILLS: Same objections.
14 THE WITNESS: That I can remember,
15 yes. That was the only visual contact after
16 that.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Did you ever have any other kind of
19 contact with her after that?
20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
22 THE WITNESS: No.
106
1 Q Did Ms. Barnett get you a ticket so
2 your daughter could go to an event with
3 Hillary Clinton in Greece?
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
5 MR. MILLS: Objection.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Or did she arrange to have your
8 daughter present when Hillary Clinton
9 conducted some events in Greece?
10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
11 MR. MILLS: Objection to form.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
13 THE WITNESS: No.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Did you discuss with Ms. Barnett
16 anything else other than your daughter?
17 A No.
18 Q Did you have any contact with
19 anyone else at The White House since the time
20 you've left?
21 A Anyone from The White House?
22 Q Mmm-hmm.
107
1 A I called Bernard, Mr. Nussbaum's
2 office.
3 Q Where was Mr. Nussbaum at the time?
4 A At his law firm in New York.
5 Q When did you call him?
6 A Approximately 8/97.
7 Q In August of '97?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q Where were you working?
10 A At the law firm I'm presently with.
11 Q Why did you call Mr. Nussbaum?
12 A I asked him if I could list his
13 name as a professional reference on my
14 resume.
15 Q You were at that time thinking of
16 leaving Dow, Lohnes?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q What did Mr. Nussbaum say?
19 A He said that I could.
20 Q Is there a record of your call to
21 Mr. Nussbaum?
22 A Not that I'm aware of, no.
108
1 Q Well, the law firm billing records
2 would have that, or law firm telephone
3 records would have that record, wouldn't it?
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
5 MR. MILLS: Objection.
6 THE WITNESS: I would have no idea
7 how they keep records.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Do you know who paid for that call?
10 A I would use my own code which is my
11 own private number to use it.
12 Q On your own extension.
13 A That's correct.
14 Q What's your extension?
15 A 2694.
16 Q What's the first prefix of the --
17 A 776.
18 Q 776. Did you subsequently get a
19 job somewhere else?
20 A No, I did not.
21 Q You decided to stay.
22 A I did.
109
1 Q Did you discuss anything else with
2 Mr. Nussbaum during that call?
3 A No. I don't remember that there
4 were any other matters other than asking him
5 how he was and how his wife was.
6 Q Did you talk to him about your
7 White House experience?
8 A No.
9 Q Did you mention Vince Foster?
10 A No.
11 Q Did you have any contacts since the
12 time you left The White House with anyone
13 else you had worked with or knew or anyone
14 currently at The White House?
15 A No. Those are the only two
16 individuals.
17 Q Since the time you left The White
18 House, did you have any contact with any
19 lawyers at The White House?
20 A Mr. Eggleston, Neil Eggleston
21 visited me when I was at Wilmer & Cutler.
22 Q When were you at Wilmer & Cutler?
110
1 A From November of '93 until January
2 of '94.
3 Q Why did you leave Wilmer Cutler?
4 A I was offered a job to return to my
5 former law firm.
6 Q You didn't like working at Wilmer
7 Cutler?
8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
9 THE WITNESS: No. I did like it.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Then why did you leave?
12 A It was nice to go back to a home
13 that I'd known for so long.
14 Q Mr. Eggleston visited you after you
15 moved to Dow, Lohnes or while you were at
16 Wilmer Cutler?
17 A While I was at Wilmer.
18 Q Did you call Mr. Eggleston and say
19 "I want to meet with you"?
20 A No.
21 Q How did that meeting occur, how did
22 it get set up?
111
1 A He called me and asked if he could
2 meet with me.
3 Q What was your extension when he
4 called you, what was your phone number?
5 A I do not remember my phone number.
6 Q Who were you working for at Wilmer
7 Cutler?
8 A Robert McCormick.
9 Q Is he still there?
10 A I've heard that he is not.
11 Q He's not.
12 A That's correct.
13 Q What did Mr. Eggleston say to you
14 when he called you?
15 MR. MILLS: Objection.
16 MS. SHAPIRO: One moment, please,
17 just to consult with the witness' counsel.
18 (Witness conferred with counsel)
19 MS. SHAPIRO: We'll allow the
20 witness to answer the question on the
21 condition that there's no waiver of any
22 attorney-client privilege.
112
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, just for this
2 question.
3 MS. SHAPIRO: So that's agreeable
4 for this question.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah, that's fine.
6 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Would you
7 repeat the question?
8 (The reporter read the record as
9 requested.)
10 THE WITNESS: He asked if I could
11 meet with him.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Did he tell you why?
14 A Not at that time, no.
15 Q When you spoke to Mr. Nussbaum did
16 he tell you whether or not you should be
17 talking to people about your experience at
18 The White House because you may be a witness
19 in a legal proceeding, did he ever mention
20 anything like that?
21 MR. MILLS: Objection.
22 THE WITNESS: No.
113
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q So you met with Mr. Eggleston. Did
3 he tell you during that conversation where he
4 wanted to meet with you?
5 A He asked me where it would be
6 convenient.
7 Q What did you tell him?
8 A He could come to the location where
9 I was working at the time.
10 Q Did he tell you why he wanted to
11 meet with you?
12 A No.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Same condition, that
14 she could answer the question as long as
15 there is no waiver of attorney-client
16 privilege.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Were you alarmed when he called
19 you?
20 A No.
21 Q You didn't find it strange that
22 someone said "I want to meet with you" but
114
1 didn't tell you why?
2 A No.
3 Q You found that normal.
4 A I don't know if it's normal or not.
5 It didn't cause any alarm to me.
6 Q You knew Mr. Eggleston was a White
7 House lawyer. Correct?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q Did you later have that meeting
10 with Mr. Eggleston?
11 A I did.
12 Q Where did that meeting take place?
13 A It took place in a conference room
14 at the law firm I was located in.
15 Q Mr. Eggleston was there?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Did he come with anyone else?
18 A No.
19 Q You attended the meeting with him?
20 A Yes.
21 Q When did that meeting occur?
22 A Approximately December of '93.
115
1 Q Was anyone present other than you
2 and Mr. Eggleston in the meeting?
3 A No.
4 Q What did Mr. Eggleston tell you at
5 the meeting?
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Before she answers
7 that question, again, the same stipulation, I
8 would ask that she could answer the question
9 so long as there's an agreement that there is
10 no waiver of attorney-client privilege.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine.
12 THE WITNESS: He asked me if I had
13 taken anything out of Vince's office that
14 belonged to him.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q What else did he ask you?
17 A That's all he asked me.
18 Q What did you tell him?
19 A That I had nothing that belonged to
20 Vince.
21 Q Well, did you take anything out of
22 the office, however, that didn't belong to
116
1 Vince?
2 A I took my calendar that you have.
3 Q The one you produced today?
4 A Yes.
5 Q You had left your calendar in
6 Vince's office?
7 A I'm sorry. I'm confused.
8 Q The conversation was about what you
9 had taken out of Vince Foster's office.
10 A He wanted to know what I took out
11 of Vince Foster's office that belonged to
12 Vince, if I had anything.
13 Q Right. You said no.
14 A That's correct.
15 Q Did he want to know whether you
16 took stuff out the day or so after he died or
17 did he want to know whether you'd just taken
18 stuff out of The White House, period, when
19 you left?
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Do you know what I'm saying?
117
1 A He wanted to know if I had any of
2 Vince's personal articles.
3 Q With you outside of The White
4 House.
5 A That's correct.
6 Q But you had taken some documents
7 out of Vince Foster's office when you worked
8 at The White House, you just hadn't removed
9 them from The White House?
10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
11 MR. MILLS: Objection to form.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Same objection.
13 THE WITNESS: I did not take any
14 articles out of Vince Foster's office.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Did you take anything out of Vince
17 Foster's office after he died?
18 A No.
19 Q Do you know of anyone who did?
20 A No, I don't.
21 Q Do you know of anyone who entered
22 Vince Foster's office after he died?
118
1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Who?
5 A The Park Police, myself.
6 Q Anyone else?
7 A Ms. Williams, Mr. Nussbaum.
8 Q Anyone else?
9 A Mr. Neuwirth.
10 Q Anyone else?
11 A I don't remember any others at the
12 time.
13 Q Do you have any information from
14 any source as to whether those persons took
15 documents or other things out of Mr. Foster's
16 office after he died?
17 A We packed up two boxes of
18 Mr. Foster's personal items that were taken
19 out of his office.
20 Q Who is "we"?
21 A Myself and Mr. Castleton helped me
22 remove the boxes.
119
1 Q When did that happen?
2 A Sometime after his death.
3 Q Did someone direct you to do that?
4 A I don't recall. Someone did, but I
5 don't recall who asked for them. I don't
6 know if it was the family.
7 Q Was anyone aware that you and
8 Mr. Castleton were packing up things in
9 Mr. Foster's office after he died other than
10 Mr. Castleton and you?
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
12 THE WITNESS: I believe
13 Mr. Nussbaum would know. I would have told
14 him I was packing up these items.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q What did you tell Mr. Nussbaum?
17 A I'm sure that I probably told him I
18 was packing up Mr. Foster's personal items.
19 Q Did Mr. Nussbaum say anything to
20 you about that?
21 A I don't remember what he would have
22 said.
120
1 Q Did he tell you anything to the
2 effect "That's not for you to do, that's for
3 government investigators"?
4 MR. MILLS: Objection to form.
5 THE WITNESS: No. Otherwise, he
6 probably would have.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q What specifically did you pack up
9 with Mr. Castleton?
10 A I didn't pack it up with
11 Mr. Castleton. I packed them. He carried
12 the boxes out.
13 Q You were there by yourself.
14 A I believe I was.
15 Q What did you pack up?
16 A Candlesticks, photographs, Tic
17 Tacs.
18 Q Anything else?
19 A At the moment I can't remember what
20 else there was.
21 Q At the time that you packed up
22 these personal effects, all other things had
121
1 been removed from Vince Foster's office.
2 Correct?
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
5 THE WITNESS: I don't know what had
6 been removed from his office.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q At the time that you packed up
9 these Tic Tacs and photographs and what
10 you've just described, there were no
11 documents in Mr. Foster's office. Correct?
12 A I don't remember if there were
13 documents or not.
14 Q So as far as you know, there were
15 no documents at that time?
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
17 MR. MILLS: Objection.
18 THE WITNESS: No. I only packed up
19 his personal items.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Did you ever tell Linda Tripp that
22 you were aware that documents were removed
122
1 from Vince Foster's safe after he died?
2 A No, I never told her that.
3 Q Have you ever told that to anyone?
4 A No.
5 Q Did you ever tell to anyone that
6 documents removed from Vince Foster's safe
7 were taken to The White House residence after
8 Vince Foster died?
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you inferring
11 Vince Foster had a safe or are you talking
12 about the safe located in Mr. Nussbaum's
13 office?
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Let's talk about that one.
16 A Your question was again, please?
17 Q Did you ever tell anyone after
18 Vince Foster died that documents and things
19 from that safe were taken to The White House
20 residence?
21 A No, I never told anyone that.
22 Q Are you aware of whether or not
123
1 that happened?
2 A No, I'm not aware.
3 Q Are you aware of whether or not any
4 documents or things that were in Vince
5 Foster's office before he died were taken to
6 The White House residence after he died?
7 A I have no knowledge of that.
8 Q Did you ever tell anyone that?
9 A No, I did not.
10 Q Do you have a copy of the Grand
11 Jury testimony that you provided to the
12 Independent Counsel?
13 A Not with me.
14 Q Does your lawyer have a copy of
15 that?
16 A I'm sure he does.
17 Q Do you have a copy of your Senate
18 testimony?
19 A I do.
20 Q Who has possession of that?
21 A I have a copy and my attorney has a
22 copy.
124
1 Q Is the attorney you're referring to
2 the one sitting next to you today?
3 A Mr. Mills, yes.
4 Q Mr. Mills. What else did
5 Mr. Eggleston say to you during that meeting?
6 A That's all he said.
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Same stipulation,
8 please.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q That's it?
11 A That's correct.
12 Q Did you have any contact with
13 Mr. Eggleston after that?
14 A No.
15 Q Did you have any contact with
16 anyone from The White House Counsel's office
17 after that?
18 A No.
19 Q Did you have any contact with
20 anyone who had worked at The White House or
21 was working at The White House from the point
22 you left The White House up to today?
125
1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
2 THE WITNESS: No.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Have you had any contact with
5 anyone on behalf of The White House or behalf
6 of the Clinton Administration since the time
7 you left?
8 A Mr. Eggleston.
9 Q That's it?
10 A I believe I met with another
11 counsel sometime in 1994.
12 Q Who was that?
13 A I believe her name was Miriam
14 Nimitz.
15 Q Where did she come from?
16 A White House Counsel's office.
17 Q Where were you working at the time?
18 A At Dow, Lohnes & Albertson.
19 Q Who were you working for at Dow,
20 Lohnes?
21 A Kevin Reed.
22 Q Who contacted who? Did you contact
126
1 Miriam Nimitz or did she contact you?
2 A I did not contact Ms. Nimitz.
3 Q Did she call you?
4 A I don't recall if she called me or
5 my attorney.
6 Q Who was your attorney at the time?
7 A Mr. Mills.
8 Q How long has Mr. Mills been your
9 attorney?
10 A Since April of 1994.
11 Q April of '94?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q Have you yourself paid for
14 Mr. Mills' services since April of 1994?
15 MR. MILLS: Objection.
16 A I haven't received an invoice yet.
17 Q Do you know who is paying your
18 legal fees, if anyone?
19 A I don't know of anyone paying my
20 legal fees.
21 Q Do you know why you haven't been
22 invoiced?
127
1 A No, I don't. I certainly offered
2 to pay for the expenses of my representation.
3 Q Has Mr. Mills appeared with you in
4 other legal proceedings?
5 A He has.
6 Q What other legal proceedings?
7 A The Senate committee, the
8 deposition, testifying before the committee,
9 Independent Counsel, the meeting with the
10 FBI.
11 Q With regard to what matter?
12 A Whitewater.
13 Q Anything else?
14 A I can't remember all the meetings
15 that we've had. Those are the most
16 significant.
17 Q Has anyone at Dow, Lohnes &
18 Albertson ever told you you are not going to
19 have to pay the legal fees?
20 A No, no one has ever said that to
21 me.
22 Q Is that your understanding?
128
1 A That's not my understanding, no.
2 Q You are an experienced legal
3 secretary. Correct?
4 A I am.
5 Q Based upon your experience as a
6 legal secretary, it is not in the ordinary
7 course to not bill for five years?
8 A I don't know what the ordinary
9 course is.
10 Q Has it been your experience that
11 clients are billed at five-year intervals?
12 A I don't know what the billing
13 practices of my firm are.
14 Q Have you ever asked?
15 A No.
16 Q Do you know whether or not someone
17 is paying your legal fees on your behalf?
18 A I do not.
19 Q Have you ever asked?
20 A No.
21 Q Do you know whether or not anyone
22 associated with the Clinton Administration is
129
1 paying your legal fees on your behalf?
2 A No.
3 Q You don't know one way or the
4 other.
5 A I've never been told anyone is
6 paying for my legal fees.
7 Q Do you know whether Mr. Mills
8 represents anyone else who worked at the
9 Clinton Administration or works in the
10 Clinton Administration?
11 A I don't know who he represents.
12 Q Have you ever asked him?
13 A No.
14 Q Have you ever met with Mr. Mills
15 where, other than the instances that you've
16 testified to with regard to the FBI and your
17 appearances in front of Congress, have you
18 ever met with Mr. Mills where other people
19 were present?
20 MR. MILLS: Objection, privilege.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q You can respond.
130
1 MR. MILLS: No, you cannot respond.
2 It's a privilege.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not a privilege;
4 if those people are third parties, then there
5 would be no privilege.
6 MR. MILLS: That wasn't the
7 question.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, that's my
9 question.
10 MR. MILLS: Are you changing your
11 question?
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, if that helps
13 you understand it, I'll be happy to.
14 MR. MILLS: It doesn't help me
15 understand it. It's a different question.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Well, have you ever met with
18 Mr. Mills where someone who was not a lawyer
19 was also present?
20 MR. MILLS: Objection, same
21 objection. That's privileged.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
131
1 Q Please respond.
2 MR. MILLS: That's privileged.
3 Don't respond to that question.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.* Please
5 explain for the court how you can block her
6 from answering that question.
7 MR. MILLS: Okay, I will. Who
8 we've met with from my office, whether
9 they're a lawyer or not, and whoever is
10 present whether they're a lawyer or not, is
11 still going to be a privileged communication.
12 You didn't ask about anybody who was
13 unrelated to my law firm.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q I think that's a smaller subset
16 than I can ask about, but we'll start with
17 that. Have you ever met with Mr. Mills where
18 someone was present who wasn't from your law
19 firm?
20 A Yes.
21 Q When was that?
22 A At the time I mentioned to you
132
1 regarding Ms. Nimitz.
2 Q Who was present?
3 A Ms. Nimitz and Mr. Mills.
4 Q Anyone else?
5 A Not at that meeting, no.
6 Q Where did that meeting take place?
7 A At our law firm.
8 Q What was discussed?
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Before she answers
10 that question, I'm going to need to consult
11 with her counsel.
12 Mr. Klayman, I'll allow the witness
13 to answer the question on the condition that
14 you agree to the same condition, that it's
15 not a waiver of attorney-client privilege.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q What was discussed?
19 A I'm sorry. Could you repeat the
20 question?
21 (The reporter read the record as
22 requested.)
133
1 THE WITNESS: During the meeting
2 with Ms. Nimitz and I was asked for my
3 background, how I came to know Mr. Foster and
4 what occurred during the preceding days of
5 his death and afterwards.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q What did you say?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Same stipulation?
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes.
10 THE WITNESS: I told Ms. Nimitz how
11 I came to be employed by Mr. Foster and the
12 events that took place the days before his
13 death and the days after.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Tell me everything you told them.
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Can we have a
17 continuing stipulation, please?
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah, sure.
19 THE WITNESS: I told her how I was
20 referred to Mr. Foster by his sister and what
21 occurred the day before, the day of -- the
22 day before Mr. Foster's death and what
134
1 happened on the day he died and what happened
2 in the following days.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Did you ever have any subsequent
5 conversations with Ms. Nimitz after that
6 meeting?
7 A I don't remember meeting with her
8 again.
9 Q Did you discuss with Ms. Nimitz the
10 type of work that Vince Foster was doing
11 while he was alive and working at The White
12 House?
13 A No.
14 Q Did she ask you whether you'd seen
15 anything peculiar when you worked with
16 Mr. Foster?
17 A I don't remember if she asked me
18 that question or not.
19 Q Did she ask you whether or not
20 Mr. Foster was working on anything which
21 could have caused him to take his own life?
22 MR. MILLS: Objection.
135
1 THE WITNESS: I don't remember that
2 she asked me that question or not.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Did she ask you whether you had an
5 opinion as to whether or not Mr. Foster was
6 murdered?
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
8 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q You can respond.
11 A No, she never asked me a question
12 as such.
13 Q Have you ever formed an opinion on
14 that issue?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and
16 answered, relevancy.
17 MR. MILLS: Objection.
18 THE WITNESS: On whether he was
19 murdered or not?
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Yes.
22 A Yes.
136
1 Q How did you form that opinion?
2 MR. MILLS: Same objections.
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
4 THE WITNESS: As I stated to you
5 before, I noticed that he was very sad and I
6 noticed the symptoms.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q What do you mean by "the symptoms"?
9 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
10 answered, relevance.
11 THE WITNESS: Symptoms.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Do you have any training in
14 psychology or psychiatry?
15 A No, I don't.
16 MR. MILLS: Objection.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Have you ever known anyone who has
19 killed himself or herself?
20 MR. MILLS: Objection.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
137
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q You have. What were the
3 circumstances that you recognized?
4 MR. MILLS: Objection.
5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Other than what you testified to.
8 A I didn't recognize their symptoms.
9 You only asked me if I knew of someone.
10 Q The very first day that you learned
11 that Mr. Foster had died, did you form an
12 opinion immediately that it was suicide or
13 did you first think it was perhaps other than
14 suicide?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form and
16 relevance.
17 MR. MILLS: Objection, form,
18 relevance; it's repetitive and becoming
19 harassing.
20 THE WITNESS: I did not form an
21 opinion of how he died.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
138
1 Q You've never formed that opinion.
2 MR. MILLS: Same objections.
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
4 THE WITNESS: Incorrect. I have
5 formed an opinion.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Well, at what point? That's what
8 I'm saying.
9 A I don't recall the exact point that
10 I formed that opinion.
11 Q Within months, within years?
12 MR. MILLS: Objection, same
13 objection.
14 THE WITNESS: I don't recall at
15 what time.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Given the fact that it was a period
18 of time before you arrived at a conclusion or
19 an opinion that Mr. Foster was the subject of
20 suicide, did you yourself have any fear that
21 something could happen to you before you came
22 to the conclusion that Mr. Foster had killed
139
1 himself?
2 MR. MILLS: Objection to form;
3 objection to relevance, and it's harassment.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q You can respond.
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Join in all
7 objections.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: The only thing that's
9 harassing here are your objections. Please
10 respond.
11 MR. MILLS: I take exception to
12 that. We're entitled to make objections.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll let the record
14 speak for itself.
15 MR. MILLS: Well, then let it speak
16 for itself.
17 THE WITNESS: No.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Do you understand my question?
20 A No, I had no fear.
21 Q Let me see if I phrased it
22 correctly. I'm not trying to harass you.
140
1 What I'm trying to say is before you came to
2 the conclusion that he killed himself, when
3 this was still uncertain as to how he died,
4 did you yourself feel that you might be at
5 risk?
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and
7 answered.
8 MR. MILLS: Objection, same
9 objection.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Please respond.
12 A No, I never felt at risk.
13 Q Did you feel that anybody else
14 might be at risk?
15 MR. MILLS: Objection, same
16 objections.
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
18 THE WITNESS: No.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Surely the thought must have
21 crossed your mind that perhaps he had been
22 killed by someone else?
141
1 MR. MILLS: Objection, same
2 objections.
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
4 THE WITNESS: No. It never crossed
5 my mind.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q So you formed the conclusion that
8 he killed himself from the very first moment
9 you learned that he was dead?
10 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form
11 of the question.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
13 THE WITNESS: No, I did not form an
14 opinion.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q So you are saying that you never
17 ever even had a glancing thought that you and
18 other people around Mr. Foster might be at
19 risk?
20 MR. MILLS: Objection, same
21 objection.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
142
1 THE WITNESS: No.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Have you had an opportunity to read
4 Linda Tripp's testimony in this case?
5 A I have.
6 Q Who gave you a copy of it?
7 A My attorney.
8 Q Did you read the part where she
9 says that Monica Lewinsky left on her chair a
10 list of 58 people who died during this
11 administration?
12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
14 MR. MILLS: Objection.
15 THE WITNESS: I did read that part.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Were you aware that people from
18 this administration had died in the last six
19 years before you read that transcript?
20 MR. MILLS: Objection.
21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to
143
1 relevancy, also.
2 THE WITNESS: No.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q You weren't aware of one person
5 dying except for Mr. Foster?
6 MR. MILLS: Objection.
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
8 THE WITNESS: I don't recall who
9 was on the list.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Well, you had read in the
12 newspaper, however, that there were more than
13 one person who had died associated with the
14 Clintons and this administration in the last
15 six years, you were aware of that before you
16 read Tripp's deposition. Correct?
17 MR. MILLS: Objection to form.
18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
19 THE WITNESS: No, I did not read
20 that in the newspaper.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Were you aware of that from some
144
1 other source?
2 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
3 THE WITNESS: No, I was not.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Do you need newspapers on a regular
6 basis?
7 A No.
8 Q Do you read The Washington Post?
9 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
10 answered.
11 THE WITNESS: I do.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Do you read The Washington Times?
14 A No.
15 Q Did you vote for President Clinton
16 in 1992 and '96?
17 MR. MILLS: Objection, privilege.
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to
19 relevancy.
20 MR. MILLS: Don't answer the
21 question. It's privileged. Do not answer
22 the question. It's a privilege.
145
1 MR. KLAYMAN: All right, certify
2 it.*
3 Bears on bias, bears on
4 credibility, state of mind.
5 MR. MILLS: I don't understand
6 that. Can you explain to me why you think
7 the privilege is --
8 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just putting it
9 on the record. I don't want to clutter the
10 record as you do, Mr. Mills.
11 MR. MILLS: I just want to know the
12 basis.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: It's unnecessary.
14 You've taken your position.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Do you think that President Clinton
17 has done a good job since 1992?
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
19 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
20 THE WITNESS: I have not formulated
21 an opinion on that.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
146
1 Q Do you think that Mrs. Clinton has
2 done a good job as First Lady since 1992?
3 A I have no opinion on that.
4 Q Would you like to consult with your
5 counsel over my question as to whether or not
6 you voted for Mr. Clinton in '92 and '96?
7 It's your privilege, it's not his.
8 MR. MILLS: I object to that
9 question as asking her how she feels about
10 seeking legal advice. I'm sorry to make a
11 speaking objection, but I never heard a
12 question like that.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Would you like to
14 consult with your counsel about that? I'll
15 be happy to give you some time.
16 MR. MILLS: I tell you what,
17 Mr. Klayman, I'll talk to my counsel about
18 that at the next break. If you're still
19 interested in that question?
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Your counsel?
21 MR. MILLS: I'm sorry. I'll speak
22 with my client.
147
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay.
2 MR. MILLS: Thank you for catching
3 that mistake on my part. I'll consult with
4 my client on that question and if she wants
5 to answer that question I'll tell you about
6 it.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I want to ask
8 her because you asserted it for her and I
9 don't think you can do it for her. She's got
10 to do it for herself. Why don't you take a
11 minute right now and discuss it.
12 MR. MILLS: We're not going off the
13 record to discuss it. If you want to on the
14 clock discuss it with her, I'll be happy to.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. Do it at
16 the next break.
17 MR. MILLS: That's fine.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: You can do it over
19 lunch, how's that?
20 MR. MILLS: If we break for lunch,
21 that's what I'll do.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
148
1 Q Have you ever been critical of
2 anything that this administration has done?
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
4 THE WITNESS: No.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Have you ever been critical of
7 anything Mr. and Mrs. Clinton have done?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Same objection.
9 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
10 THE WITNESS: No.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Are you a registered Democrat?
13 MR. MILLS: Objection.
14 THE WITNESS: No.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q What are you registered as?
17 MR. MILLS: Objection.
18 THE WITNESS: I don't know that I'm
19 registered.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Have you ever voted?
22 A I have.
149
1 Q When was the last time you voted?
2 A In 1996.
3 Q Where did you vote, in the District
4 of Columbia?
5 A No, sir.
6 Q Where did you vote?
7 A Virginia.
8 Q You don't have to register as
9 Independent, Democrat or Republican in
10 Virginia to vote?
11 A I don't remember.
12 Q So you might be a registered
13 Democrat?
14 A Or I might be a registered
15 Republican, but I don't remember the
16 registration process.
17 Q When did you review Linda Tripp's
18 testimony?
19 A Within the last past two, three
20 weeks.
21 Q There were several sessions, there
22 were four sessions. Did you review each one?
150
1 A I did.
2 Q How long did it take you to review
3 all that?
4 A I don't remember how long it was in
5 time.
6 Q Did you take notes of the testimony
7 when you reviewed it?
8 A No.
9 Q Do you know of anyone who did?
10 MR. MILLS: Objection. Calls for
11 privileged information.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Not whether she took
13 notes, Mr. Mills. I haven't asked for the
14 notes yet.
15 MR. MILLS: You asked if anyone
16 took notes of Linda Tripp's testimony.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah. That's not
18 privileged. You can answer that.
19 MR. MILLS: It's privileged to the
20 extent it's calling for notes of counsel.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, if you have
22 them, that's fine. But still I haven't asked
151
1 you to produce them. The fact they may exist
2 is not privileged.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Please respond.
5 A I don't know if anyone took notes
6 or not.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Did you take notes,
8 Mr. Mills?
9 MR. MILLS: Are you seriously
10 asking me a question?
11 MR. KLAYMAN: I figured maybe you
12 might offer it to us as a matter of justice.
13 MR. MILLS: I think I'll just let
14 the deposition proceed with you asking
15 questions of the witness.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Did you discuss Linda Tripp's
18 testimony with anyone?
19 A I did.
20 Q Who other than your counsel?
21 A No one.
22 Q Did you discuss Linda Tripp's
152
1 testimony with Betsy Pond?
2 A No.
3 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
4 answered.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Have you reviewed Betsy Pond's
7 testimony before today in this lawsuit?
8 A I have.
9 Q Have you reviewed the testimony of
10 Stephen Waudby?
11 A I have.
12 Q Have you reviewed the testimony of
13 anyone else who has testified in this case?
14 A No, I haven't.
15 Q Craig Livingstone?
16 A No.
17 Q William Kennedy?
18 A No.
19 Q Have you had any conversations with
20 any of the lawyers in this room today other
21 than Mr. Mills and his colleagues sitting at
22 his right?
153
1 A Have I had any conversations today?
2 Each of these folks introduced themselves to
3 me.
4 Q Well, before today have you had any
5 conversations with the Department of Justice
6 about this lawsuit and your appearance here
7 today?
8 A I have.
9 Q When did you have those
10 conversations?
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
12 THE WITNESS: I don't remember the
13 exact date. Perhaps about three to four
14 weeks ago.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q How did those conversations come
17 about?
18 A I believe they contacted my counsel
19 and requested a meeting.
20 Q How did you find out that they had
21 contacted your counsel?
22 A My counsel told me.
154
1 Q Mr. Mills?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q Who is "they"?
4 A Ms. Shapiro, yes.
5 Q Did you have a meeting?
6 A We did.
7 Q When did the meeting take place?
8 MR. MILLS: Asked and answered,
9 objection.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q You can respond.
12 A I don't remember the exact day.
13 Q Where did it take place?
14 A At our office.
15 Q Who was present?
16 A Mr. Mills, Ms. Shapiro,
17 Mr. Gilligan.
18 Q Anyone else?
19 THE WITNESS: Mr. Wagner? Were you
20 present, Mr. Wagner? I can't recall.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Anyone else?
155
1 A No, sir.
2 Q How long did the meeting last?
3 A Approximately one hour.
4 Q Did counsel for the Justice
5 Department ask you questions?
6 A They did.
7 Q Mr. Gilligan?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Did you give him answers?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Before today did you ever think of
12 meeting with counsel for the Plaintiffs in
13 this lawsuit?
14 A You mean prior to my subpoena, sir?
15 Q Yes.
16 A No.
17 Q Did you ask your lawyer to contact
18 me so we could also meet with you?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q Do you have an opinion as to
21 whether it's proper for you to meet with
22 counsel for the Justice Department but not
156
1 counsel for the Plaintiffs in this case?
2 A No, I don't have an opinion
3 regarding that.
4 Q Have you ever thought of whether
5 you should meet with one side and not the
6 other?
7 A No. I'm happy to meet with anyone.
8 Q Would you meet with me after this
9 deposition?
10 A Well, I suppose if you invited me.
11 Q I'll invite you. Will you meet
12 with me?
13 A If you send me a subpoena.
14 Q Did the Justice Department send you
15 a subpoena?
16 A No, they didn't.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's break for
18 lunch.
19 MR. MILLS: What time are we going
20 to be back?
21 MR. KLAYMAN: In an hour.
22 MR. MILLS: I would ask we come
157
1 back at 1:00 o'clock.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine.
3 MR. MILLS: 1:00 o'clock is a
4 little less than an hour, but I would ask
5 that we come back at 1:00 o'clock to keep it
6 moving. Is everyone agreeable to that?
7 MR. GILLIGAN: Yeah, that's
8 agreeable.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: I need an hour, so
10 we'll make it 1:10.
11 MR. MILLS: I'm sorry. I thought
12 we just agreed to 1:00 o'clock.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I misread my
14 watch. I need an hour. That's reasonable
15 and that's the normal lunch hour.
16 MR. MILLS: Fine. One hour.
17 THE WITNESS: We're going off video
18 record at 12:08.
19 (Whereupon, at 12:10 p.m., a
20 luncheon recess was taken.)
21
22
158
1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N
2 (1:13 p.m.)
3 Whereupon,
4 DEBORAH GORHAM
5 was recalled as a witness and, having been
6 previously duly sworn, was examined and
7 testified further as follows:
8 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS
9 CONTINUED
10 THE WITNESS: We're back on video
11 record at 1:13.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Did you have an
13 opportunity, Mr. Mills, to consult with your
14 client about the question that you were going
15 to consult with her about?
16 MR. MILLS: Yes, I did. What she
17 has decided to do was she will agree to
18 answer that question on the condition that we
19 agree that it does not constitute a general
20 waiver of her privilege with regard to
21 political votes, and she'll answer that
22 question as to who she voted for for the two
159
1 elections you mentioned.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Can you answer that question, who
5 did you vote for in '92 and '96 for
6 Presidential candidates?
7 A In 1992 I voted for Ross Perot.
8 In 1996 I voted for Bob Dole.
9 Q Having worked for the Clinton
10 Administration in 1993, did your experience
11 there influence your decision to vote for Bob
12 Dole in 1996?
13 A No.
14 Q Are you saying that none of your
15 experiences at The White House played a role
16 in your deciding who to vote for in 1996?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and
18 answered.
19 A That's correct.
20 Q Why did you vote for Bob Dole as
21 opposed to Bill Clinton in 1996?
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
160
1 THE WITNESS: I suppose I favored
2 more his conservative business opinions and
3 social reform.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q In fact, one of the reasons you
6 voted for Bob Dole was because you didn't
7 like what you saw at The White House.
8 Correct?
9 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
10 answered.
11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
12 MR. MILLS: Mischaracterization.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q You can respond.
15 A No, that's incorrect.
16 Q In fact you were very troubled with
17 the things that you had experienced at The
18 White House. Correct?
19 MR. MILLS: Same objections.
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
22 THE WITNESS: No, I wasn't.
161
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Is there any way that we can verify
3 that you voted for Bob Dole in 1996?
4 MR. MILLS: Objection.
5 THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
6 MR. MILLS: That's harassment.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Is there any way that we can verify
9 that you voted for Ross Perot in 1992?
10 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
11 THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Have you ever told anyone who you
14 voted for before today in those two elections
15 for President?
16 MR. MILLS: Other than counsel and
17 husband? Otherwise, I'll object. Objection,
18 privileged. I am sorry. I didn't mean to
19 make a speaking objection. Objection,
20 privileged. Don't answer that.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, let me exclude
22 husband and counsel. We'll take it your way,
162
1 having your admittedly injected. Other than
2 your husband -- well, see, that messed up the
3 question.
4 MR. MILLS: I apologize. You were
5 asking a question that would have called for
6 privileged information. I didn't mean to
7 suggest that you should have excluded husband
8 and attorney.
9 But if you are not going to exclude
10 it, it is objectionable as privileged. I
11 think you know that. I don't know what else
12 I can do, Mr. Klayman. You can't ask her
13 about those things anyway.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, again, it's for
15 her to assert and not for you, you see?
16 MR. MILLS: I'm asserting on her
17 behalf, sir.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: The problem here is
19 that you've now given her some testimony.
20 That's the problem.
21 MR. MILLS: No, that cannot be
22 correct because she would not testify about
163
1 whether she would have said anything to her
2 husband or to her attorney. I'm asserting
3 those privileges on her behalf.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Having already
5 tainted the testimony in my opinion, let's
6 ask the question that way.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Have you ever discussed who you
9 voted for in 1992 with anyone other than your
10 lawyer and your husband?
11 A No.
12 Q None of your friends.
13 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
14 answered.
15 THE WITNESS: None of my friends.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q From 1992 to present, this isn't
18 necessarily related to who you voted for,
19 but -- excuse me, Mr. Gaffney?
20 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm consulting with
21 my co-counsel and I don't think I interrupted
22 the question.
164
1 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm sorry. You did
2 interrupt me, and we heard laughing before.
3 MR. GAFFNEY: Who did you hear
4 laughing from, Mr. Klayman?
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Shapiro.
6 MS. SHAPIRO: I don't believe I was
7 laughing, Mr. Klayman.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, you were
9 laughing. Now please, could we keep some
10 decorum here?
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Where is the --
12 MR. KLAYMAN: This is not a fun
13 proceeding for anybody, I'm sure, and it's
14 not worthy to be laughing or interrupting
15 while I'm talking, please.
16 MR. GAFFNEY: Excuse me,
17 Mr. Klayman. I didn't interrupt you when you
18 were talking.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: You did.
20 MR. GAFFNEY: I didn't.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q I'm not asking this with regard to
165
1 who you voted for. But from 1992 to the
2 present, who are your closest friends?
3 MR. MILLS: Objection.
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Join in the
5 objection.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q You can respond.
8 MR. MILLS: That's harassment.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Please respond.
11 A My husband.
12 Q There are people, however, that you
13 do confide in, that you tell them, you know,
14 what's going on in your life. Right?
15 MR. MILLS: Objection to form, same
16 objection.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Correct?
19 A Only in the most limited of way.
20 Q There are people that from 1992 to
21 present you have talked about your work
22 experience with, outside of your husband and
166
1 your lawyer. Correct?
2 MR. MILLS: Objection.
3 THE WITNESS: My work experience
4 with?
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Yes.
7 A Professionally as a career?
8 Q Yeah.
9 A At my law firm?
10 Q Let me ask you this: Do you have
11 friends? Without regard to who they are,
12 have you had friends from 1992 to present?
13 A I have.
14 Q You have from time to time with
15 those friends from 1992 to present told them
16 about your experiences professionally?
17 A Throughout my career as a
18 professional no matter where I was working?
19 Q The question was from 1992 to
20 present.
21 A That's correct.
22 Q Who are some of the people that you
167
1 have talked about what you were doing
2 professionally?
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
4 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
5 THE WITNESS: With regard to my
6 work at Dow, Lohnes & Albertson --
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Let's talk about with regard to
9 your work at The White House.
10 MR. MILLS: I think the witness was
11 in the process of answering the question.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine. Let me
13 ask it this way so I can zero it in.
14 MR. MILLS: I would ask as a matter
15 of courtesy that you allow the witness to
16 answer the question.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Fine. These are not trick
19 questions.
20 A At the present law firm I work with
21 I've spoken with the secretaries, my
22 colleagues.
168
1 Q Who are they?
2 MR. MILLS: Objection to relevance.
3 THE WITNESS: Various secretaries
4 in the group that I work with.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q During the course of time since you
7 began working at The White House up to the
8 present time, you did discuss your work at
9 The White House with some of your friends.
10 Correct?
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q In however small a way.
14 A I probably discussed who I worked
15 with.
16 Q What do you mean by you probably
17 discussed who you worked with?
18 A Who I worked for, who my supervisor
19 was.
20 Q Who did you discuss that with?
21 A My husband, my girlfriend, some of
22 the ladies I work with.
169
1 Q Who is the girlfriend and some of
2 the ladies you work with?
3 A Who are they?
4 Q Yes.
5 MR. MILLS: Objection.
6 THE WITNESS: They're my friends.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Yes. I'd like to get their names.
9 MR. MILLS: Objection, same
10 objection.
11 THE WITNESS: Merle Pullar.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Merle, how is that spelled?
14 A M-e-r-l-e.
15 Q Pullar, P-u-l-l-e-r?
16 A A-r.
17 Q A-r. Where does she work?
18 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
19 THE WITNESS: Airline Pilots
20 Association.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Who else?
170
1 A Tammy Foxwell.
2 Q Where does she work?
3 A At Dow, Lohnes & Albertson.
4 Q At the time that you worked in The
5 White House, who were your closest friends?
6 A My husband.
7 Q Aside from that.
8 A Merle Pullar.
9 Q Anyone else?
10 A No.
11 Q Is there anyone else that you've
12 discussed your experience at The White House
13 with besides these two people?
14 A My experience, my professional
15 experience?
16 MR. MILLS: Object.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Any aspect of it.
19 MR. MILLS: I object to that.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Any aspect of your time at The
22 White House, even the fact you just worked
171
1 there. Who are your closest friends that you
2 would have been in contact with during the
3 period you worked at The White House and
4 thereafter?
5 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form
6 of the question.
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
8 THE WITNESS: Other than those
9 individuals, perhaps my daughter.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q What's your daughter's name?
12 A Dawn May.
13 MR. MILLS: Objection.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Dawn?
16 A Dawn May.
17 Q Dawn May. Where does she live?
18 MR. MILLS: Objection. That's
19 harassment. Irrelevant.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: That's not
21 harassment.
22 MR. MILLS: It is harassment.
172
1 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm entitled to find
2 out who she has been in contact with because
3 maybe what she's told them will differ from
4 what we get today.
5 MR. MILLS: Where this poor woman's
6 daughter lives is relevant to this case?
7 MR. KLAYMAN: So we can try to find
8 her. If you want to give it to me in
9 confidence, that's fine. I'll take it on a
10 confidential record if there's an objection.
11 MR. MILLS: You can say the town on
12 a confidential basis.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: I think you
14 understand she's giving testimony here today,
15 and we want people that she's spoken with and
16 interacted with so we can confirm that what
17 she says is true or not. That's the reason
18 we're doing this.
19 MR. MILLS: On all details or just
20 relevant details?
21 MR. KLAYMAN: On what she's
22 testifying to.
173
1 MR. MILLS: You haven't asked
2 anything about any substantive issues about
3 The White House experience. That's why I'm
4 objecting is because you haven't established
5 that any of these people have any relevant
6 information.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: We are not Karnak.
8 We can't answer the question before we ask
9 it. So I'm just trying to find out who she
10 has been in contact with.
11 MR. MILLS: I thought you were
12 asking where they live.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Anybody that you are close to that
15 you would have mentioned any aspect of your
16 experience at The White House with.
17 MR. MILLS: I'm sorry. Is there a
18 question?
19 THE WITNESS: I mean I answered the
20 last question.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Now, if you want to give the name
174
1 of where your daughter is located to us
2 through your counsel confidentially, that's
3 fine. Would you prefer to do that?
4 A I would.
5 Q Will you do that, Mr. Mills?
6 MR. MILLS: I'll give you the name of
7 the town where she lives. If you think that
8 you need to get in touch with her beyond that,
9 you know, if the court feels that that's
10 appropriate I'll do that, absolutely.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: All right.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Other than friends and other than
14 family members and other than counsel, is
15 there anyone that you have spoken with about
16 any aspect of your experience at The White
17 House?
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and
19 answered.
20 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
21 THE WITNESS: No.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
175
1 Q If you want to go on a confidential
2 record to answer this question, that is fine,
3 too. Have you ever spoken about your White
4 House experience with any counselor,
5 psychological counselors, psychiatrists or
6 anything like that?
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
8 MR. MILLS: Objection.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: If you want to go
10 confidential, we'll go confidential.
11 MR. MILLS: She's not willing to do
12 that. That would be a privileged issue
13 whether she had consultations with someone
14 for that purpose.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I kept it
16 broad. But obviously we're dealing here with
17 a situation that obviously had a lot of
18 psychological, potential psychological trauma
19 to it.
20 MR. MILLS: I'm sorry, you said
21 something there and I'm just wondering how
22 the Filegate issue might have caused
176
1 psychological trauma to my client.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Her experience at The
3 White House. Her letter makes reference to
4 it, the Exhibit 2, the death of Vince Foster.
5 MR. MILLER: But that's not what
6 this case is about, is it.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not going to get
8 into an argument with you about that.
9 MR. MILLS: I'm not arguing. I'm
10 just asking.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I don't want to
12 get into an argument.
13 MR. MILLS: It's relevant
14 because --
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me make my
16 proffer here. If you want to instruct her
17 not to answer, I'll move the court. But
18 there very well may be instances where she
19 consulted with someone professionally that
20 would not be covered by any privilege.
21 That's why I'm allowed to at least
22 find out if there was a consultation. I'm
177
1 not asking for the substance of it, and who
2 it was with. If you want to go on a
3 confidential record, I'll oblige you with
4 that.
5 MR. MILLS: I'll consider that, but
6 at this time I don't believe that's accurate.
7 I think she is entitled to assert a privilege
8 if she wishes to do that. But if at the end
9 of the day that remains an issue, we can
10 revisit it then after I've had a chance to
11 talk with her.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Did you ever have a conversation in
14 the presence of Linda Tripp or Betsy Pond
15 where you discussed the possibility that any
16 of you could be called to testify in legal
17 proceedings concerning the Clinton
18 Administration?
19 A No.
20 Q You're absolutely certain of that.
21 A Yes.
22 Q Did you ever have a conversation
178
1 with Betsy Pond and/or Linda Tripp where you
2 said that "If I'm called to testify I'm going
3 to testify this way," or the other way, where
4 you discussed how you were going to testify?
5 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
6 answered.
7 THE WITNESS: I never had such a
8 conversing with either ladies.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Do you know of any conversation
11 between Linda Tripp and Betsy Pond where
12 either of them mentioned the possibility that
13 they could be called to testify in a matter
14 involving the Clinton Administration?
15 A No, I don't.
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Have you ever discussed with Betsy
19 Pond either future testimony or past
20 testimony that she gave in any legal
21 proceeding?
22 A No.
179
1 Q Same question with regard to Linda
2 Tripp?
3 A No.
4 Q I'm not asking you this question in
5 any way to harass you. I think you can see
6 my tone has been very measured today. I just
7 want to see if you understand if anyone has
8 ever explained to you what it means to be
9 under oath.
10 MR. MILLS: Objection. I do
11 consider that harassment, notwithstanding the
12 characterization.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Join in the
14 objection.
15 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form
16 of the question.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Has anyone ever explained that to
19 you?
20 A I can't remember if anyone has ever
21 explained it to me, but I've certainly read
22 about it.
180
1 Q What do you understand your
2 obligations to be when you're under oath?
3 A To answer the questions truthfully.
4 Q Is there any other aspect of being
5 under oath that you understand is required?
6 A I believe to answer the truth to
7 the questions in whole as I know them.
8 Q Do you understand it means telling
9 all the truth?
10 MR. MILLS: Objection.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Not withholding anything.
15 MR. MILLS: Objection.
16 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Do you know of anyone who worked at
19 the Clinton White House who has been held
20 accountable for not telling everything that
21 they've known under oath?
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
181
1 MR. MILLS: Objection.
2 THE WITNESS: No, I don't.
3 Considering the limited amount of reading.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q I've read about it. Have you ever
6 discussed with anyone either who worked for
7 the Clinton White House or still works for
8 the Clinton White House any aspect of
9 providing testimony in legal proceedings?
10 A No.
11 Q Did you ever discuss that with
12 Mr. Eggleston?
13 A No.
14 Q Did you ever discuss that with
15 Ms. Nimitz?
16 A No, I don't believe the nature of
17 that came up at all.
18 Q Did you ever discuss anything like
19 that with Mr. Bernard Nussbaum?
20 A No.
21 Q Vince Foster?
22 A No.
182
1 Q Do you know that Mr. Nussbaum is a
2 defendant in this case?
3 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of
4 the question. Mr. Nussbaum is not a
5 defendant.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Do you know that he was initially
8 named as a defendant in this case?
9 A No, I do not.
10 Q Are you aware that he's testifying
11 tomorrow?
12 A I heard that.
13 Q Where did you hear that?
14 A In this conference room.
15 Q When did you hear that?
16 A This morning.
17 Q Who told you that?
18 A No one told me that. I overheard
19 that.
20 Q Well, who said it?
21 A Mr. Mazur mentioned it to someone.
22 Q Tell me where you went to high
183
1 school.
2 A White Station.
3 Q Where is that?
4 A Memphis, Tennessee.
5 Q What year did you graduate?
6 A 1970.
7 Q What did you do then
8 professionally?
9 A I went to college.
10 Q Where did you go to college?
11 A Memphis State University.
12 Q What did you major in?
13 A Marketing.
14 Q What year did you graduate?
15 A I have not yet.
16 Q You never graduated.
17 A Not from Memphis State University,
18 no.
19 Q Did you go to another university
20 after that?
21 A I'm presently enrolled in two
22 universities, yes.
184
1 Q Where is that?
2 A At George Mason University and
3 NOVA.
4 Q What are you studying there?
5 A Law.
6 Q You would like to be a lawyer?
7 A Not necessarily.
8 Q What would you like to be?
9 A More knowledgeable.
10 Q At which one are you going to law
11 school, both of them?
12 A I hope to --
13 MR. MILLS: Objection. No
14 foundation.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Are you in law school right now?
17 A No, I'm not.
18 Q So what kind of a program is this
19 that you're studying at George Mason and
20 NOVA?
21 A I'm finishing my baccalaureate at
22 George Mason and I'm enrolled in the ABA
185
1 certified approved legal assistant program at
2 NOVA.
3 Q So you would like at least as a
4 preliminary matter to be a paralegal.
5 A Not necessarily.
6 Q Do you have ultimate objectives?
7 A More knowledge.
8 Q Tell me what your work experience
9 has been from the time of your very first job
10 up to the present. We'll see if we can do
11 this as quickly as possible to get some
12 background, where you've worked and who your
13 supervisors have been at each job.
14 A In 1968 I started working in high
15 school for a ladies dress shop.
16 Q Where was that?
17 A In Memphis.
18 Q What was the name of it?
19 A Jean's, as in the ladies name with
20 an apostrophe "S."
21 Q Who was your supervisor?
22 A I do not remember his name.
186
1 Q Do you remember anybody you worked
2 with?
3 A I remember their faces but not
4 their names.
5 Q Continue on. That's the kind of
6 information I want for each job. So if you
7 can give it for me as you take it up to the
8 present we'll move this along quickly.
9 A To the best of my recollection, I
10 then worked for the U.S. Treasury Department
11 in Washington, D.C. in 1974.
12 Q What did you do for U.S. Treasury?
13 A I was a clerk typist.
14 Q Who was your supervisor?
15 A I do not recall their name.
16 Q Do you remember anybody you worked
17 for?
18 A Only faces, not names.
19 Q How long did you stay there?
20 A About a year.
21 Q Why did you leave?
22 A I returned home to Memphis,
187
1 Tennessee.
2 Q What did you do then?
3 A I worked for the Internal Revenue
4 Service.
5 Q What was your job there?
6 A Payroll clerk.
7 Q How long did you work there?
8 A Until 1976.
9 Q What happened then?
10 A I moved back to Washington.
11 Q Who was your supervisor at the IRS?
12 A I do not recall her name.
13 Q Up to that point in time had you
14 been ever terminated from a job?
15 A No.
16 Q Were you terminated from the IRS?
17 A No.
18 Q Had you ever received any negative
19 reviews on any of your employment?
20 A No.
21 Q So you moved back to Washington.
22 What year was that?
188
1 A It was July 1976.
2 Q What happened then?
3 A I worked for the Department of
4 Labor.
5 Q What was your position?
6 A I was a secretary.
7 Q Who was your supervisor?
8 A Donald Lemmon.
9 Q Did you work with anyone else
10 there?
11 A Kathel Carroll.
12 Q How is that spelled?
13 A K-a-t-h-e-l, C-a-r-r-o-l-l.
14 Q How long did you stay at the
15 Department of Labor?
16 A Until January of 1978.
17 Q What happened then?
18 A I went on maternity leave.
19 Q Are you still married to the same
20 person?
21 A I am not.
22 Q What was that person's name that
189
1 you were previously married to?
2 A Richard May.
3 Q Do you know where he is located?
4 A I do.
5 Q Where is that?
6 A In Virginia.
7 Q Northern Virginia?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q Do you know who he works for?
10 A No, I don't.
11 Q Have you been in contact with him
12 in the last six years?
13 MR. MILLS: Objection to relevance.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Where was the last place he worked
17 that you know of?
18 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
19 THE WITNESS: Bell Atlantic.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Does Mr. May have a middle name?
22 A He does.
190
1 Q What's that?
2 A Thomas.
3 Q Did you ever talk to him about your
4 experience at the Clinton White House?
5 A No.
6 Q Any aspect of it?
7 A No.
8 Q Even that you were working there?
9 A No.
10 Q So in '78 you were back, you made
11 another job switch. Where did you go then?
12 A I transferred to the U.S.
13 Geological Survey in Reston, Virginia.
14 Q What did you do for them?
15 A I worked as a payroll clerk.
16 Q Who were your immediate
17 supervisors?
18 A I do not recall their names.
19 Q Do you remember anybody you worked
20 with?
21 A Only faces.
22 Q How long did you stay there?
191
1 A Until December of 1980.
2 Q What did you do at that time?
3 A I transferred to Houston, Texas, to
4 the Federal courts.
5 Q To where?
6 A To the Federal courts, U.S.
7 District and Bankruptcy Court.
8 Q Who did you work for there?
9 A Jesse Blanco.
10 Q Was this a job?
11 A No, it was the clerk of the court.
12 Q You worked for the clerk.
13 A That's right.
14 Q Who else did you work with in that
15 office?
16 A I don't remember their names.
17 Q Why did you move to Houston?
18 A I was offered a position and
19 accepted service within the government.
20 Q How long did you stay working for
21 the Bankruptcy Court, et cetera in Houston?
22 A Until November 1983.
192
1 Q What happened after that?
2 A I went to work for Mr. Blanco who
3 had left the government and went into private
4 practice.
5 Q He went into private practice as a
6 lawyer?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q You were his secretary?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q How long did you work with him?
11 A About three more years.
12 Q Who else was in that office?
13 A At the law firm?
14 Q Mmm-hmm.
15 A Rhett Campbell, and I do not
16 remember the first name of the named partner.
17 Q How long did you stay with
18 Mr. Blanco?
19 A Until 1985.
20 Q What happened then?
21 A I left the employment and went to
22 work for another law firm in Houston.
193
1 Q What law firm was that?
2 A Sheinfeld, Mayle & Kay.
3 Q Sheinfeld?
4 A Mayle & Kay.
5 Q Who did you work with there?
6 A Miriam Kass.
7 Q How is that spelled?
8 A K-a-s-s.
9 Q Anyone else?
10 A I don't recall the associate's
11 name.
12 Q How long did you stay in that job?
13 A Until February of 1986.
14 Q What happened then?
15 A I returned to Washington, D.C.
16 Q You got another job?
17 A With Dow, Lohnes & Albertson.
18 Q Why did you return to Washington?
19 A My former husband passed away, so I
20 returned to this area.
21 Q Mr. May?
22 A No, my second husband.
194
1 Q Who was your second husband?
2 A Curtis White.
3 Q Did you have any children with
4 Curtis White?
5 A No.
6 Q Who did you work with at Dow,
7 Lohnes & Albertson beginning in '86?
8 A John Logan.
9 Q Anyone else?
10 A Not at that time. A year later I
11 started working for the managing partner.
12 Q Who was that?
13 A Daniel Touhey.
14 Q Daniel Touhey?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Is Mr. Touhey and Mr. Logan still
17 there?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Who else did you work with at the
20 firm at that time during that period?
21 A Those were the only two attorneys.
22 Q Were there some secretaries that
195
1 you were close with?
2 A No, not really.
3 Q How long did you stay at Dow,
4 Lohnes & Albertson?
5 A Until March of 1993.
6 Q Up to that point in time had you
7 ever been asked to leave a job?
8 A No.
9 Q Had you ever been convicted of a
10 crime?
11 A No.
12 Q This Mr. Daniel Touhey, do you
13 know, did he leave Dow, Lohnes & Albertson at
14 some point?
15 A I don't know if he has. I
16 understand perhaps he's special counsel or
17 senior counsel.
18 Q Did he ever work with Independent
19 Counsel Ken Starr?
20 A Not that I'm aware of.
21 Q What happened in March of 1993?
22 A I offered my resignation at the law
196
1 firm and went to work at The White House.
2 Q Now, how did it come to pass that
3 you got a job at The White House? How did
4 that happen?
5 A I was called one evening at home by
6 our legal personnel manager and she told me
7 that Sheila Foster Anthony, Vince's sister,
8 had called her and asked her if there were
9 anyone that she would recommend who could
10 work with her brother.
11 Q Who was the personnel manager?
12 A Judy Bush.
13 Q Is she still there?
14 A She is.
15 Q Did Ms. Bush tell you that she had
16 thought of you or some other people at Dow,
17 Lohnes?
18 A She said that she offered my name
19 and wanted to know if that was all right and
20 if I were interested, and if I was to give
21 her a resume the following week.
22 Q Why was she offering up your name?
197
1 Did you tell her that you wanted to leave?
2 A No, I did not.
3 Q Do you have any knowledge why she
4 was offering up your name to go work
5 somewhere else?
6 A It was explained to me that she
7 thought perhaps that I had the demeanor and
8 the civility to be able to work as a
9 secretary in that office.
10 Q What led her to believe that? Did
11 she tell you?
12 A No, she didn't.
13 Q Did you have a feeling that maybe
14 they wanted you to go work somewhere else?
15 A No, it never crossed my mind.
16 Q What happened after that?
17 A After the conversation? I gave her
18 my resume and then she forwarded it to Sheila
19 Foster Anthony.
20 Q What happened then?
21 A I received a phone call from
22 Mr. Foster and he asked me if I would like to
198
1 come in for an interview.
2 Q Vince Foster.
3 A Yes.
4 Q Did you then go in for an
5 interview?
6 A I did.
7 Q Did you meet with him?
8 A I did.
9 Q Was anyone else present?
10 A No.
11 Q Where did you meet with him?
12 A In his office.
13 Q What did he say to you?
14 A He asked me about my experiences
15 that appeared on my resume. I can't recall
16 what else we talked about at that time. It
17 was so long ago.
18 Q Did he tell you what he was
19 interested in you to do, what your duties and
20 responsibilities would be if he offered you a
21 job?
22 A I don't remember what else we
199
1 discussed.
2 Q Did you have an interview with him
3 only once or did you come back again?
4 A I had an interview with him only
5 once.
6 Q Were you then offered a job?
7 A I was.
8 Q How did you receive notification of
9 that?
10 A He called me.
11 Q What did he say to you?
12 A He offered me the position and told
13 me what the salary was.
14 Q What position was that?
15 A To work as his executive assistant
16 there in the office.
17 Q At that time did he tell you what
18 the duties and responsibilities were as
19 executive assistant?
20 A I don't remember if that was part
21 of our conversation.
22 Q So up to that point in time you
200
1 really didn't know what your duties and
2 responsibilities would be?
3 MR. MILLS: Objection, foundation.
4 THE WITNESS: No. I don't remember
5 what we discussed.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Did Mr. Foster ever tell you what
8 his duties and responsibilities were up to
9 that point in time?
10 A I don't remember.
11 Q In terms of your salary, what grade
12 level were you at, were you being offered?
13 A I wasn't offered a grade level. I
14 was only offered an annual salary.
15 Q What was that?
16 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q You can respond.
19 MR. MILLS: I'd like this to go on
20 confidence, if you don't mind.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine. Why
22 don't you give it to me later and we'll put
201
1 it on a confidential record. Okay?
2 MR. MILLS: That's preferable,
3 thank you.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll save all these
5 up.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Did you accept the position?
8 A No, I did not.
9 Q How did you notify him that you
10 didn't accept it?
11 A I told him that I could not accept
12 it.
13 Q Why couldn't you accept it?
14 A Because the salary was much less
15 than I was currently earning.
16 Q So what happened then, if anything?
17 A He stated that he would get back
18 with me and see if there was any more
19 budgeting amount that could be paid to
20 increase my salary.
21 Q Did he get back to you?
22 A He did.
202
1 Q Did he up the amount?
2 A He did.
3 Q We'll get that on the confidential
4 record. Now, did you ultimately get the job?
5 A I did.
6 Q After you got the job what did you
7 have to do? Did you have to fill out some
8 forms?
9 A Not prior to my arrival there, no.
10 When I arrived there.
11 Q When did you arrive there?
12 A Approximately March 8, 1993.
13 Q Did you meet with Mr. Foster at
14 that time?
15 A I'm sure I saw him that day, but I
16 don't recall if we had any meetings, so to
17 speak.
18 Q Did there come a point when you met
19 with him or others and they told you what
20 your duties and responsibilities were going
21 to be?
22 A I believe so, that probably
203
1 occurred.
2 Q When did that happen?
3 A I don't remember exactly when that
4 happened, how early into the week when I
5 arrived.
6 Q Tell me what you learned were going
7 to be your duties and responsibilities.
8 A Essentially correspondence,
9 transcription of tapes, answering of
10 telephones.
11 Q What do you mean by correspondence?
12 A Write memos, letters, very typical
13 generic work.
14 Q At that point in time did you have
15 experience using a PC, a computer?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Did they tell you that you were
18 going to be working on a PC from time to
19 time?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Was there, I'll call the computer a
22 PC, was a PC assigned to you?
204
1 A Yes.
2 Q What kind of a PC was that?
3 A I don't remember the name brand and
4 can't even remember if it was a two, three
5 or 486.
6 Q A desktop?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Do you know whether you inherited
9 that computer from somebody else or did you
10 get it new?
11 A I don't remember. If someone had
12 used it or not or if that was unused but
13 simply placed there.
14 Q Well, when you first started
15 working on it, did you find any files on it
16 on the hard drive?
17 A I don't remember at this time.
18 Q You were going to use that PC to
19 prepare correspondence?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Word processing?
22 A That's correct.
205
1 Q What kind of software was on that
2 PC when you first started working at The
3 White House?
4 A To the best of my memory, it was
5 WordPerfect and perhaps the level was 4 or 5.
6 I don't exactly remember.
7 Q Was there anything else in that
8 computer?
9 A As in software?
10 Q Yes.
11 A I don't remember what other
12 software if there were any.
13 Q That computer was linked into the
14 White House's network?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
16 THE WITNESS: I would imagine that
17 that is who sustained it is The White House.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q You imagine? I'm sorry, I didn't
20 hear you.
21 A I imagine it was The White House
22 who sustained the network, yes.
206
1 Q From that computer you could get
2 access to various White House databases. Is
3 that correct?
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
5 THE WITNESS: I can't remember what
6 the other databases were if there were any.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q You do believe there were databases
9 that you could access from that computer.
10 Correct?
11 MR. MILLS: Objection, foundation.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
14 THE WITNESS: At this time I can
15 only remember the WordPerfect software.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q So as of now you can only remember
18 that, but that doesn't mean there wasn't
19 other software on it, you just can't
20 remember.
21 A That is correct.
22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
207
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q It doesn't mean that there was not
3 access to White House databases, you just
4 can't remember now. Right?
5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q That's correct, isn't it?
9 A I can only remember using the
10 WordPerfect database.
11 Q That was my question. Can you
12 remember whether or not from that computer
13 terminal you could access certain White House
14 databases?
15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
16 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
17 answered.
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
19 THE WITNESS: No, I cannot
20 remember.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q So there may have been, you just
208
1 can't remember now?
2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form,
3 asked and answered.
4 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
5 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
6 THE WITNESS: There might have
7 been. I only remember the WordPerfect
8 software.
9 BY THE WITNESS:
10 Q When you first began to work with
11 Mr. Foster did you sit at the desk that you
12 designated on Exhibit 7, the one that says
13 "Gorham"?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Did the computer sit on that desk?
16 A It sat on the return to the desk.
17 Q During the time that you worked in
18 the West Wing was that computer ever
19 repaired?
20 A I don't remember if it ever needed
21 repairing during a system failure.
22 Q Let me ask you a foundation
209
1 question. During the time that you worked in
2 the West Wing did that computer ever break?
3 A I don't recall. Being six years
4 later I just can't remember whether there was
5 ever a problem.
6 Q So you don't remember if it was
7 ever broke or it was ever repaired?
8 A I don't.
9 Q Do you remember whether it was ever
10 serviced?
11 A I don't remember.
12 Q Was it ever taken off your desk?
13 A Yes.
14 Q When was it taken off your desk?
15 A When I moved over to the Old
16 Executive Office Building.
17 Q I take it that that computer was
18 able to send E-mail.
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
20 THE WITNESS: I understand after
21 Senate testimony that there was electronic
22 mail capability.
210
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q What do you mean by you understand
3 after Senate testimony?
4 A I understand that there was E-mail
5 capability and that I sent E-mail.
6 Q But for the fact that you learned
7 of that from someone else during Senate
8 testimony, you don't remember having sent
9 E-mail?
10 A No, I do not.
11 Q You don't remember whether it had
12 E-mail capability?
13 A I do not.
14 Q But you were able to learn from
15 Senate testimony that in fact you had sent
16 E-mail.
17 A That's correct.
18 Q Why do you think your memory went
19 blank on whether you sent E-mail?
20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form
21 of the question.
22 MR. MILLS: Objection.
211
1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
2 THE WITNESS: I have no conclusion
3 on that.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q I don't mean this in any way other
6 than the way I'm going to say it, but the
7 death of Vince Foster, that was a very
8 traumatic experience, wasn't it?
9 MR. MILLS: Objection.
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to
11 relevancy.
12 MR. MILLS: This is unnecessary and
13 harassing.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: I take issue with
15 that. You know, I think it's unnecessary to
16 keep, you know, sticking it in and twisting
17 it, Mr. Mills. I really think that's
18 inappropriate.
19 MR. MILLS: That's a point on which
20 we agree. I think you are sticking it in and
21 twisting it about her experience with Vince
22 Foster.
212
1 MR. KLAYMAN: I think this is
2 inappropriate and if you'd let me ask the
3 questions and not be so personal here,
4 please.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q It was a traumatic experience,
7 wasn't it?
8 MR. MILLS: Same objections.
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
10 THE WITNESS: It was shocking.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Yeah. You had never experienced
13 anything like that before. No one had ever
14 died that you worked with. Correct?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
16 MR. MILLS: Objection.
17 THE WITNESS: No, no one that I had
18 ever worked with, that's correct.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q No one had ever died under those
21 kinds of circumstances where they just went
22 off and they never came back that you had
213
1 ever worked with?
2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
3 MR. MILLS: Objection.
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Relevancy.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q You can respond.
7 MR. MILLS: Same objections.
8 THE WITNESS: No, not in that type
9 of situation.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q It was painful for you. Right?
12 MR. MILLS: Objection, same
13 objections.
14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q It's still painful?
18 A Extremely.
19 Q It's the kind of a situation that
20 could cause you to lose your memory. Right?
21 MR. MILLS: Objection.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
214
1 THE WITNESS: I would have no idea.
2 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of
3 the question.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Just out of the trauma of it, it's
6 the kind of thing that could cause you to
7 lose your memory?
8 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of
9 the question.
10 MR. MILLS: Objection, foundation,
11 form.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Object.
13 THE WITNESS: I don't know if the
14 two are related.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Surely you've thought of that.
17 Right?
18 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of
19 the question.
20 MR. MILLS: Objection.
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
22 THE WITNESS: No, I've never
215
1 thought about that.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Did you ever discuss the emotional
4 impact of Foster's death on your emotional
5 condition with anybody?
6 MR. MILLS: Objection.
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
8 MR. MILLS: Same objection as
9 earlier when you were trying to get that same
10 information that we discussed.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: This is asked in a
12 much more neutral way. Please respond.
13 MR. MILLS: It's calling for the
14 same answer.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not calling for
16 the same answer.
17 MR. MILLS: I object.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q You can respond.
20 MR. MILLS: I object. To the
21 extent it calls for privileged information,
22 the witness need not answer it.
216
1 MR. KLAYMAN: You're instructing
2 her not to answer?
3 MR. MILLS: I'm telling her to the
4 extent that it calls for privileged
5 information. If she consulted with somebody
6 who she'd have a privilege with, then she
7 need not answer it.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not asking for
9 who it was, just anybody.
10 MR. MILLS: That's why I said if
11 she talked to you about it, then she could
12 answer that question.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, this is
14 objectionable. Certify it.*
15 I am not asking for any kind of
16 health care provider. I'm not asking for any
17 kind of psychiatrist or psychologist in this
18 question.
19 I just asked whether she consulted
20 with anyone. No one will be able to draw any
21 conclusion from the fact that she consulted
22 with somebody.
217
1 MR. MILLS: Fine.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Can she answer that?
3 MR. MILLS: Yes.
4 THE WITNESS: I talked with my
5 husband.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Is that the only person you talked
8 to about it?
9 MR. MILLS: Subject to the same
10 objections, she can answer that.
11 THE WITNESS: No.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q So you did talk to other people?
14 MR. MILLS: I'm sorry, I didn't
15 hear the question.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q You did talk to other people about
18 it?
19 MR. MILLS: That's objection, same
20 objections, plus asked and answered.
21 THE WITNESS: I did.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
218
1 Q Did you ever discuss with those
2 other people whether this experience of
3 Foster dying had had an effect on your own
4 emotional state of mind?
5 MR. MILLS: Objection.
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form and
7 relevance.
8 MR. MILLS: That's getting into the
9 substance of it.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q You can respond. You can respond.
12 MR. MILLS: Subject to the same
13 objections as to the people.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not asking who it
15 was or what their profession was or anything
16 like that. There is no identification.
17 MR. MILLS: To the extent it's
18 anyone with whom she would have a privilege,
19 she need not answer that.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Then we'll never have
21 an answer to the question, will we.
22 MR. MILLS: You're just not
219
1 entitled to get into things that are
2 privileged, Mr. Klayman. That's the rules.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: See, you are
4 reversing it, Mr. Mills, because I'm not even
5 asking the question. I'm just saying whether
6 there was any discussion of that with
7 anybody.
8 No one will know whether or not
9 there was a discussion with any individual
10 upon which there may be a privilege.
11 MR. MILLS: Don't you think it's
12 similar to saying "did you ever get legal
13 advice from anyone don't tell me if it was a
14 lawyer"?
15 MR. KLAYMAN: No. I just asked
16 whether she discussed it.
17 MR. MILLS: The record is made. If
18 she can answer it subject to those
19 limitations, she can answer it.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.*
21 THE WITNESS: Can I have the
22 question repeated, please.
220
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you read it back,
2 Court Reporter.
3 (The reporter read the record as
4 requested.)
5 THE WITNESS: No.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q So when you answer that question
8 you are excluding certain categories of
9 people. Correct?
10 A I am.
11 Q During the time that you worked for
12 Mr. Foster, did you ever use anything other
13 than this computer that had been assigned to
14 you from your very first days?
15 A As in word processing or -- not to
16 be facetious, of course, telephone, I mean
17 those are the only pieces of equipment I
18 used.
19 Q No, for word processing or for data
20 entry or whatever you may have been doing.
21 A No, I simply used that PC.
22 Q Did you ever use anybody else's PC?
221
1 A No.
2 Q I take it that you routinely backed
3 up what was on the hard drive on floppy disk?
4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form
5 of the question.
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the
7 form.
8 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
9 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I did not.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q You must have stored some things on
12 floppy disk.
13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form
14 of the question.
15 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form.
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
17 THE WITNESS: I don't recall
18 storing anything on a floppy disk.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Did you ever have floppy disks in
21 your hands during the period you worked at
22 The White House, did you ever put your hands
222
1 on a floppy disk?
2 A I don't remember that I ever did,
3 no.
4 Q Did you ever erase anything from
5 that computer? Did you ever try to erase
6 anything on the hard drive?
7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
8 THE WITNESS: I believe I probably
9 erased my resume.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q You had prepared a resume at one
12 point to try to leave The White House and go
13 back to private practice. Correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Did you erase anything else?
16 A No.
17 Q Do you know of anyone else who did?
18 A No, I don't.
19 Q After Mr. Foster died, did anyone
20 take custody of your computer?
21 A No. It physically remained on my
22 desk.
223
1 Q Do you know whether any law
2 enforcement agencies or authorities searched
3 your computer hard drive?
4 A No, I don't know if they did or did
5 not.
6 Q Did Mr. Foster use a computer?
7 A No.
8 Q Did you ever see him using a laptop
9 computer?
10 A No.
11 Q Did you type things for him?
12 A I did.
13 Q How did he give you the document
14 such that you could type it?
15 A On dictaphone, using a dictaphone
16 on tape.
17 Q Do you take shorthand?
18 A No, I do not.
19 Q When you worked for Mr. Foster,
20 where were those dicta-tapes stored?
21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
22 THE WITNESS: I had some at my desk
224
1 in blank and he had some at his desk.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q But you didn't throw out the
4 dicta-tapes while you worked for him.
5 Correct?
6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
7 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Where did you store them at your
10 desk?
11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
12 THE WITNESS: I probably stored
13 them in my drawer.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Those dicta-tapes at the time that
16 you left The White House to go back into
17 private practice, where were they kept at
18 that time?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
20 THE WITNESS: I don't know where
21 they were kept.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
225
1 Q Were they still in your drawer?
2 A No.
3 Q Had anyone taken custody of them?
4 A I don't know.
5 Q Did anyone ever ask you to destroy
6 them?
7 A No.
8 Q Are you aware of anyone taking
9 those dicta-tapes out of your desk?
10 A No.
11 Q Do you know what happened to those
12 dicta-tapes?
13 A No, I do not.
14 Q What did you do the last day in The
15 White House in terms of packing up your
16 things?
17 A There was very little to pack, you
18 know, a sweater, a purse. There was nothing
19 there that I kept that was personal.
20 Q Were those dicta-tapes already out
21 of your custody by then?
22 A Yes. I didn't bring them with me
226
1 to the Old Executive Office Building, if
2 indeed they were still there in the West
3 Wing.
4 Q On the day that you went from the
5 West Wing to the OEOB, were those dicta-tapes
6 left in the desk you were using, the one you
7 identified in Exhibit 7?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q Do you know what happened to the
10 dicta-tapes after that?
11 A No, I don't.
12 Q Do you know what happened to the
13 dicta-tapes in Mr. Fosters office after you
14 left?
15 A No, I don't.
16 Q Did anyone ever ask you about these
17 dicta-tapes before?
18 MR. MILLS: Objection. This whole
19 line is irrelevant.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q You can respond.
22 A I believe as I've testified before,
227
1 Clifford Sloane asked for the dicta-tapes
2 after Mr. Foster died, and asked if I'd
3 review them and listen to them.
4 Q Who was Clifford Sloane?
5 A He was an assistant counsel in the
6 Counsel's office.
7 Q Did he tell you why he asked you to
8 do that?
9 A No, I don't recall that he did.
10 Q Did you listen to those
11 dicta-tapes?
12 A I did.
13 Q What were you listening for?
14 A I don't know what I was listening
15 for. He just asked me to make notes of what
16 I heard.
17 Q You made notes of what you heard?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q Where were those notes kept?
20 A I have no idea what happened to
21 them.
22 Q Did you give them to Mr. Sloane?
228
1 A Yes, I did.
2 Q Has any authority outside of The
3 White House ever asked you about these
4 dicta-tapes? Did the Independent Counsel ask
5 you about the dicta-tapes?
6 A I can't remember if they asked me
7 about them or not, or who did.
8 Q Did Senate investigators asked you
9 about the dicta-tapes?
10 A I can't recall if the Senate or the
11 Independent Counsel's office.
12 Q Do you remember whether listening
13 to dicta-tapes you ever heard anything about
14 Craig Livingstone?
15 A No.
16 Q Bernard Nussbaum?
17 A No.
18 Q Anthony Marceca?
19 A No.
20 Q You don't remember.
21 A No. I only remember one tape that
22 had any dictation in it.
229
1 Q What did that tape say?
2 A I don't remember what the nature
3 was. It was only somewhat comical, it was
4 somewhat garbled.
5 Q What about the tapes that he had
6 given you for correspondence, had you lost
7 those tapes at that point?
8 A No. I had tapes on my desk, and I
9 don't know what happened to his.
10 Q Now, in preparing correspondence
11 and other documents for Mr. Foster, did you
12 keep a backup chron file?
13 A I kept a chron file.
14 Q That was the hard copy of what you
15 were putting on the computer?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q Where was that chron file kept?
18 A In my desk drawer.
19 Q What became of the chron file when
20 you transferred from the West Wing to the
21 OEOB?
22 A I have no idea what they did with
230
1 it.
2 Q Do you know if anyone ever took
3 custody of that chron file after Foster's
4 death?
5 A I have no knowledge of that.
6 Q When you began working for Foster
7 did you ever participate in any meetings of
8 that immediate office suite where office
9 procedures were discussed?
10 A No.
11 Q Were you taught to follow certain
12 office procedures?
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Were there office procedures?
16 A In what context?
17 Q In any context.
18 A There was a procedure, of course:
19 how to activate the alarm located behind
20 Mr. Foster's office. There was procedures on
21 how to answer a telephone. Is that what you
22 mean?
231
1 Q How did you learn of those
2 procedures? Were they in writing?
3 A No, they were not. They were
4 verbalized.
5 Q Who imparted them to you
6 personally?
7 A Cynthia McManus.
8 Q What was her job?
9 A She was on detail working for
10 Mr. Nussbaum.
11 Q Now, when you started working at
12 The White House you did fill out some forms
13 at some point. Correct?
14 A Yes, I did.
15 Q What forms did you fill out?
16 A I filled out an application of
17 employment, a W-4, a W-2, Virginia state tax
18 form, retirement form.
19 Q Did you fill out any forms to be
20 able to get a security clearance?
21 A No.
22 Q Did you ever have a security
232
1 clearance?
2 A I certainly had a badge, a security
3 badge.
4 Q Were you ever interviewed by FBI
5 agents up to the time that you began to work
6 at The White House or thereafter?
7 A Regarding a security clearance?
8 Q Regarding your background.
9 A No, sir.
10 Q Did you fill out an SF-86 form?
11 A What is that?
12 Q That's a form that's used for
13 background security check.
14 A No.
15 Q Do you know Gary Aldrich, Special
16 Agent Gary Aldrich?
17 A No, sir.
18 Q Do you know Special Agent Dennis
19 Scullenbrini?
20 A No.
21 Q Were you ever interviewed by any
22 FBI agents about your past or your background
233
1 in conjunction with becoming employed at The
2 White House?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q Do you know of others who were in
5 The White House?
6 A Who were interviewed by the agents?
7 Q Yes.
8 A I never discussed it with anyone.
9 Q You are aware that other people did
10 have security clearances in The White House.
11 Correct?
12 A I didn't ask who did and who
13 didn't.
14 Q But did you know that?
15 A I understood that there was a
16 process, yes.
17 Q But you never participated in that
18 process?
19 A Only in the process of being
20 fingerprinted.
21 Q That was it.
22 A Yes, sir.
234
1 Q Do you know of any of your friends
2 who have ever been questioned by the FBI?
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
4 MR. MILLS: Objection, form,
5 relevance.
6 THE WITNESS: About?
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q About you.
9 A About me? No.
10 Q Do you know of any of your friends
11 who have ever been questioned about you from
12 any source?
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
14 THE WITNESS: No.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Did you come to learn what
17 Mr. Foster's duties and responsibilities
18 were?
19 A Not really in part, only mine.
20 Q I'm sorry, I didn't hear you.
21 A Not really. Only mine.
22 Q "Only mine"?
235
1 A Correct. My responsibilities.
2 Q So you never knew anything about
3 what Mr. Foster was doing?
4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
5 MR. MILLS: Objection, foundation.
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Object.
7 THE WITNESS: I didn't know what
8 his responsibilities were.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q You didn't know what his
11 responsibilities were.
12 A That's correct.
13 Q He never discussed with you what he
14 was working on?
15 A No, sir.
16 Q He never discussed with you what
17 his duties and responsibilities were?
18 A No.
19 Q Given the fact that you were his
20 executive assistant, you found that peculiar,
21 didn't you?
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
236
1 MR. MILLS: Objection to form.
2 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Was it your practice up to that
5 point in time to work with someone who never
6 told you what he was doing?
7 MR. MILLS: Objection, foundation
8 and form.
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
10 THE WITNESS: I have to state to
11 you I only worked for Mr. Foster for four
12 months. Prior to that I worked for
13 Mr. Touhey for seven years. So because of
14 that short period of time, I didn't feel it
15 was my place to ask him what he was working
16 on and in what context. I felt it was only
17 my responsibility to transcribe the tapes
18 that he gave me.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q What were you able to glean from
21 the tapes that he gave you about what he was
22 working on?
237
1 MR. MILLS: Objection to relevance.
2 THE WITNESS: All I can remember at
3 this point in time is Judicial nominations.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q You were aware that with regard to
6 Judicial nominations there was a clearance
7 process?
8 A No, I don't know that there was a
9 clearance process.
10 Q You are aware that background
11 security checks have to be performed for
12 Judicial nominations?
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
14 THE WITNESS: No, I wasn't aware of
15 that at that time.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Did you later become aware of that?
18 A For Judicial, no, I never became
19 aware of that.
20 Q Do you know whether or not
21 Mr. Foster was working on other types of
22 nominations?
238
1 A No. I only am familiar with the
2 Judicial.
3 Q Do you know whether Mr. Foster had
4 any role in holdover employees, the clearance
5 process for holdover employees from the Bush
6 Administration to the Clinton Administration?
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
8 THE WITNESS: No.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Do you know whether Mr. Foster
11 played any role in political appointments
12 other than Judicial nominees?
13 A No. I was only aware of Judicial
14 nominees.
15 Q Do you remember the names of any
16 Judicial nominees?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Who?
19 A Steven Briar --
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Wait before you
21 answer, please. I just need to consult with
22 counsel.
239
1 MR. KLAYMAN: It's a matter of
2 public record.
3 MS. SHAPIRO: I don't know until I
4 find out.
5 (Witness conferred with counsel)
6 THE WITNESS: Going off video
7 record at 2:12.
8 (Recess)
9 THE WITNESS: We're back on video
10 record at 2:19.
11 THE WITNESS: Could I have the last
12 question repeated, please?
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure.
14 (The reporter read the record as
15 requested.)
16 THE WITNESS: Steven Briar, Kimber
17 Wood, Lonnie Guanere, Ruth Beder Ginsburg. I
18 think that's all I can remember.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Did you ever see files come into
21 the office with regard to those people, or
22 any documents?
240
1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
2 THE WITNESS: No, I never saw files
3 or documents come into the office.
4 Mr. Foster did have three-ring binders in his
5 office regarding those nominations.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q What was in the three-ring binders?
8 A They were nonsensitive information.
9 They were the names and their addresses and
10 the name of the children and their wives, or
11 their spouse's name.
12 Q You are aware that Mr. Foster got
13 information from the FBI with regard to those
14 Judicial nominees?
15 MR. MILLS: Objection to form.
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
17 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not aware of
18 that.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q You don't know of any information
21 ever coming from the FBI with regard to
22 Judicial nominees to The White House?
241
1 MR. MILLS: Objection.
2 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Do you know of any information
5 coming from any government agency to The
6 White House with regard to Judicial nominees?
7 A No, sir.
8 Q Did you ever discuss or overhear
9 any conversation while you were at The White
10 House about how Judicial nominees were
11 cleared in terms of their appointment?
12 A No.
13 Q Did anyone ever explain that to
14 you?
15 A No.
16 Q Were you aware at any time you
17 worked in The White House that Judicial
18 nominees had to have an FBI background check?
19 A No, I was not aware of that.
20 Q Were you aware that political
21 appointees had to have an FBI background
22 check?
242
1 A No.
2 Q Were you aware that employees of
3 The White House had to periodically have FBI
4 background checks?
5 A I was only aware of the fact, I
6 don't know how periodically, but a background
7 check had to be done.
8 Q How did you find that out?
9 A I was asked to fill out an SF-86.
10 Q At what point were you asked to
11 fill that out?
12 A I was reminded to do that after
13 Mr. Foster passed away.
14 Q Who reminded you to do that?
15 A Mr. Kennedy.
16 Q Up to that point in time no one had
17 ever mentioned that to you.
18 A They had mentioned it to me and I
19 knew that it was pending, but I just did not
20 have enough time to fill that out.
21 Q At the break did you discuss
22 SF-86's with your counsel or anybody else?
243
1 MR. MILLS: Objection. That's
2 calling for privileged information. You need
3 not answer that question.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't ask what was
5 discussed. I just asked whether SF-86's were
6 discussed.
7 MR. MILLS: The objection stands.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.*
9 Before the break I had asked you
10 about SF-86's. Correct?
11 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I can't
12 remember. I thought it was just about the
13 Judicial nominations but, yes, you asked
14 about that.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q You told me that you never
17 remembered any such form or discussion of it.
18 Correct?
19 MR. MILLS: Objection,
20 mischaracterization.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Correct?
244
1 A I'm sorry. I'd have to have that
2 re-read back to me, but --
3 MR. MILLS: Do you want to have
4 those questions read back?
5 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I really don't.
6 I think I understand what happened.
7 MR. MILLS: I object to that, move
8 to strike that from the record. That's
9 uncivil.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I think it's just
11 a fact.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q When you worked in that office with
14 Mr. Foster, did you come to learn what
15 Ms. Tripp was doing in that office?
16 Professionally.
17 A Yes.
18 Q What were her duties and
19 responsibilities?
20 A She was assisting Betsy Pond with
21 correspondence for Mr. Nussbaum.
22 Q Did you come to learn what
245
1 Mr. Castleton was doing?
2 A Yes.
3 Q What was that?
4 A He was receiving the mail everyday.
5 Q What did receiving the mail entail?
6 A He would open up all the mail that
7 was addressed to the Counsel's office, and
8 then distribute it appropriately, I would
9 imagine, to counsel who were working on
10 particular matters.
11 Q Did you come to know What Ms. Pond
12 was doing?
13 A Yes.
14 Q What was that?
15 A She prepared correspondence for
16 Mr. Nussbaum and answered his telephone lines
17 and helped with scheduling his appointments
18 and meetings.
19 Q Did she ever discuss with you the
20 nature of Mr. Nussbaum's work?
21 A No, she did not.
22 Q You can't remember one thing she
246
1 ever told you about that Nussbaum did?
2 A That he worked on?
3 Q Yes.
4 A No.
5 Q Were you able to glean from any
6 source what Mr. Nussbaum did when you worked
7 in that suite of offices?
8 MR. MILLS: Objection.
9 THE WITNESS: If you are asking me
10 that she would tell me directly what he was
11 working on, no. I assumed that he was
12 counsel to the President and offered advice
13 and counsel to the President.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q But beyond that general notion, did
16 you have any understanding of anything he did
17 specifically from any source, direct,
18 indirect or whatever?
19 A No.
20 Q Now, you say you prepared
21 correspondence with regard to Judicial
22 nominees for Mr. Foster. Correct?
247
1 A I don't think I said that.
2 Q If I'm wrong, correct me.
3 A No. I simply knew that he had
4 three-ring binders in his office regarding
5 Judicial nominations and that I did prepare
6 correspondence for him but I don't recall
7 that it was on those related matters.
8 Q Do you remember what the matters on
9 the correspondence were about?
10 A I don't. They were simply memos to
11 other assistant counsel.
12 Q When you worked in that suite of
13 offices do you remember ever having seen
14 anyone by the name of Maggie Williams come
15 into the office?
16 A Yes.
17 Q On how many occasions?
18 A Very infrequently. I would say no
19 more than a handful.
20 Q Do you know why she came into the
21 office?
22 A No, I don't.
248
1 Q You did however know that she was
2 an aide to Hillary Clinton.
3 A I did.
4 Q How did you learn that?
5 A I don't recall if I read it on a
6 memo or saw it listed in a phone book.
7 Q Do you remember anyone coming into
8 the office when you were down there in the
9 West Wing by the name of Catherine Cornelius?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Why did she come into the office?
12 A I don't know.
13 Q How many times did she come in?
14 A I believe I only saw her once.
15 Q Do you know where she worked?
16 A No, I don't.
17 Q Then how did you know it was
18 Catherine Cornelius?
19 A I believe that someone told me that
20 "That is Catherine Cornelius" when I asked,
21 "Who is that lady?"
22 Q Did they tell you what her job
249
1 title was or what she did?
2 A No.
3 Q Did you ever see someone by the
4 name of Harry Tomasson come into the office?
5 A Yes.
6 Q About how many times?
7 A I probably saw him only maybe two
8 or three times.
9 Q Did you know why he was in the
10 office?
11 A No, sir.
12 Q How did you know it was someone by
13 the name of Harry Tomasson?
14 A Again, I probably would have asked
15 someone, "Who is that gentleman?"
16 Q Who did you ask?
17 A I probably would have asked Betsy.
18 Q He had a beard?
19 A Yes, he did.
20 Q Betsy told you, "He's a famous
21 Hollywood producer"?
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Object to form.
250
1 THE WITNESS: I don't know if she
2 told me that or not. I just remember her
3 telling me his name.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Was he wearing his sunglasses when
6 he came in?
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
8 THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Did you ever see anyone come into
11 the office by the name of David Watkins?
12 A Yes.
13 Q How many times did he come into the
14 office?
15 A He was a little bit more frequent.
16 I would say in my tenure there maybe a
17 guesstimate of six to ten times.
18 Q Do you know why he was coming into
19 the office?
20 A No, I don't.
21 Q How do you know it was David
22 Watkins?
251
1 A Again, associating name and face
2 that someone had provided me.
3 Q Do you know what David Watkins did
4 at The White House?
5 A I recall perhaps he was Director of
6 Administration.
7 Q How did you find that out?
8 A Perhaps the phone book or a memo.
9 I'm not quite sure.
10 Q Did you see William Kennedy come
11 into the office when you worked in that suite
12 with Foster?
13 A Yes.
14 Q About how many times did you see
15 him come in?
16 A I saw him very frequently. He
17 attended staff meetings most every Monday
18 morning, or mostly every morning maybe,
19 at 9:00 o'clock.
20 Q Who was in attendance at those
21 staff meetings besides Bill Kennedy?
22 A Other assistant counsel.
252
1 Q Who were they?
2 A I don't know that they attended
3 every time, but if you want me just to list
4 you the name of the assistant counsel?
5 Q Yes.
6 A Steven Neuwirth, Clifford Sloane, a
7 gentleman by the name of Frank Sokol but I'm
8 not sure if he was an assistant counsel.
9 I'm just really trying to remember
10 people who worked within the office. Cheryl
11 Mills. That's all that comes to mind at the
12 moment.
13 Q Now, do you remember an occasion
14 when Catherine Cornelius, Harry Tomasson,
15 Bill Kennedy, David Watkins and Maggie
16 Williams all had a meeting in your office?
17 A In my office?
18 Q You remember that, don't you?
19 A In my office?
20 Q Yes, with Foster.
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
22 THE WITNESS: No one held meetings
253
1 in my office because it was a very public
2 place.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q I don't mean your office. I mean
5 in that suite.
6 A I don't know that they held
7 meetings and I don't know what they spoke
8 about, so.
9 Q You remember, don't you, at least
10 one occasion when those persons, Maggie
11 Williams, Bill Kennedy, Catherine Cornelius,
12 Harry Tomasson, Dave Watkins, all met in Bill
13 Foster's office?
14 A I only remember Catherine Cornelius
15 and Mr. Tomasson coming in once.
16 Q When they went into Vince Foster's
17 office, do you remember when that was?
18 A Not in time, no, I don't.
19 Q When they went into the office they
20 closed the door?
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
22 THE WITNESS: I don't remember if
254
1 they closed the door or not.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Around that time period, there was
4 discussion in The White House about the
5 Travel Office. Correct?
6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
7 THE WITNESS: There or perhaps with
8 other people but not with myself or others.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q But you were aware of an issue
11 involving the Travel Office around the time
12 that you saw Mr. Tomasson and Mr. Watkins in
13 the office?
14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form,
15 mischaracterization.
16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection.
17 MR. MILLS: Objection.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Right?
20 A I don't know when I learned about
21 the Travel Office. I don't know if it was at
22 that time when they were walking in or months
255
1 later.
2 Q Did you subsequently come to learn
3 that they were meeting about the Travel
4 Office in Vince Foster's office?
5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
6 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I did not
7 learn about that.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I ask you a
9 question, Ms. Shapiro?
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: What is it about my
12 last question that was improper as to form?
13 MS. SHAPIRO: If you want the
14 witness to leave and read back the question,
15 I'll tell you.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure. Please leave.
17 MR. MILLS: I don't want the
18 deposition to be held up.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I just want to
20 know for the record.
21 MR. MILLS: This is still on the
22 record.
256
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah.
2 MS. SHAPIRO: Can you read back the
3 last question.
4 (The reporter read the record as
5 requested.)
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, there are
7 several objectionable things. One, it's
8 vague because you said that she was meeting
9 with David Watkins when she never identified
10 David Watkins, she identified Cornelius and
11 Tomasson.
12 That is one basis that the form of
13 the question is objectionable. She also
14 didn't testify that they were in Vince
15 Foster's office. So the form is in several
16 respects an objectionable question.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just curious why
18 anytime I ask a question of any import I get
19 all these flurry of objections.
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, I don't think I
21 object when you ask a proper question.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Am I asking defective
257
1 questions every time I ask an important
2 question?
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Most questions are
4 defective in some respect.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Then why don't you
6 object to all of them?
7 MS. SHAPIRO: I could, but why
8 clutter the record.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: You just want to
10 object when it's an important question.
11 MS. SHAPIRO: No, I want to object
12 when I spot a severely defective question. I
13 think that's my right to object to the form
14 of the question. I think that's the way
15 you've asked me to object.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Just for the record,
17 it's our position that this has happened with
18 such frequency when there are important
19 questions that I can only assume that it's
20 one way of trying to communicate with the
21 witness.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, I'm entitled to
258
1 object. Can I just say, also, Mr. Klayman,
2 that if you look at your own objections, you
3 might learn something.
4 MR. MILLS: Can I understand why
5 this is an important question? This has
6 nothing to do with files, FBI files. I just
7 don't get that connection why.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't think you
9 need that connection. So let's bring the
10 witness back in.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q This meeting that we just talked
13 about with Foster and Tomasson, who else was
14 present?
15 A I have no idea.
16 Q We just talked, this meeting that
17 we just identified. I just want to clear
18 that up for the record.
19 MR. MILLS: Objection.
20 THE WITNESS: I don't know that a
21 meeting occurred.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
259
1 Q You remember that Harry Tomasson
2 and Catherine Cornelius went into Foster's
3 office on at least one occasion?
4 A No. I remember seeing them on one
5 occasion together. But I do not remember if
6 they went into his office or went into
7 Mr. Nussbaum's office.
8 Q Were there others present at the
9 time?
10 A I do not know. I only remember
11 those two individuals.
12 Q Is it possible Mr. Kennedy was
13 there?
14 A It is possible, but I don't recall.
15 Q Is it possible that Ms. Williams
16 was there?
17 A It is possible, but I don't recall.
18 Q Is it possible that Mr. Watkins was
19 there?
20 A It is possible.
21 Q Now, do you remember an occasion
22 where at least Harry Tomasson and Catherine
260
1 Cornelius were seen together with Vince
2 Foster?
3 A I remember Ms. Cornelius and
4 Mr. Tomasson coming into the office and
5 standing there in our outer offices, but
6 where they went or who they met with I have
7 no recollection what occurred after that.
8 Q Do you have any recollection of
9 when you saw those two people in the office,
10 Tomasson and Cornelius, going into
11 Mr. Foster's office with Linda Tripp and
12 looking at some photographs there?
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Do you have any recollection of
16 that?
17 A No, sir, I do not.
18 Q That doesn't mean it didn't happen,
19 you just don't remember.
20 A That's correct.
21 Q Do you have any recollection of
22 going into that office and observing a file
261
1 labeled "Dale" on Foster's desk?
2 A No, sir.
3 Q So you don't know one way or the
4 other whether that happened, you just don't
5 remember?
6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
7 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
8 THE WITNESS: No, sir. I didn't
9 observe what was on Mr. Foster's desk.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Do you know for a fact that you
12 ever walked into Foster's office with Linda
13 Tripp and saw files on his desk?
14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
15 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Do you remember anything to that
18 effect?
19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q You can respond.
22 A Do I remember walking into Vince's
262
1 office with Linda Foster -- I mean Linda
2 Tripp?
3 Q Yes.
4 A No, I do not.
5 Q So you don't remember one way or
6 the other. You may have, but you don't
7 remember.
8 A I do not remember walking into
9 Vince Foster's office with Linda Tripp.
10 Q Are you saying you never did that?
11 A I never walked into Vince's office
12 with Linda Tripp.
13 Q Period.
14 A Period.
15 Q You're certain you never went into
16 Vince Foster's office with Linda Tripp.
17 A I'm certain.
18 Q Are you certain that Linda Tripp
19 was never in Vince Foster's office?
20 A No, I'm not as certain about that.
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
263
1 Q Are you certain Vince Foster never
2 had a file on his desk labeled "Dale"?
3 A I don't know what Mr. Foster had on
4 his desk.
5 Q Do you know whether Mr. Foster ever
6 had in his office files related to the Travel
7 Office employees?
8 A No, I do not know if he did or did
9 not.
10 Q Do you know whether or not
11 Mr. Foster ever had in his office files in a
12 Manila folder?
13 A Of any kind?
14 Q Yeah.
15 A I know that he had Manila folders
16 in his office.
17 Q Do you know what was in the Manila
18 folders?
19 A No, I don't.
20 Q Do you know where the Manila
21 folders came from?
22 A I gave them to him.
264
1 Q Where did you get the Manila
2 folders?
3 A From the supply office.
4 Q I thought you just told me you
5 didn't know where they came from.
6 A I'm sorry. Could you repeat that?
7 Q Yeah. First you tell me you don't
8 know where they came from and then you tell
9 me you gave them to him. Which was it?
10 A Is that what I stated?
11 Q Yeah.
12 MR. MILLS: Objection.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Which is it?
15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection.
16 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. Off
17 the record.
18 THE WITNESS: I received Manila
19 folders from the supply office and I gave
20 them to him.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Did he tell you why he was asking
265
1 for Manila folders?
2 A He did not.
3 Q Did you ever give him Manila
4 folders with documents in the Manila folders?
5 A No.
6 Q But you did see Manila folders in
7 his office that had documents in them.
8 A There were Manila folders in his
9 office, that's correct.
10 Q With documents in them.
11 A That I do not know.
12 Q So was it Mr. Foster's practice to
13 have empty Manila folders in his office?
14 A I don't know. I didn't look inside
15 of them. I gave them to him and he placed
16 them in is desk drawer.
17 Q What I'm asking you as his
18 executive assistant is did you ever see
19 Manila folders that contained documents in
20 his office?
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and
22 answered.
266
1 THE WITNESS: I did not look into
2 the folders.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Well, you don't have to look in the
5 folders to see that there are documents in
6 the folders. Correct?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q Did you ever see folders that
9 appeared on the side as if they had documents
10 in them?
11 A I didn't notice.
12 Q How do you explain that you were
13 his executive assistant and didn't even know
14 what was in his Manila folders?
15 MR. MILLS: Objection.
16 THE WITNESS: I'm not an intrusive
17 or evasive person.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q But you were aware that you would
20 give these Manila folders to Foster and he
21 would put things in the Manila folders.
22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
267
1 THE WITNESS: I don't know what he
2 did with the Manila folders.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Did he ever tell you what he was
5 going to do with them?
6 A No.
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and
8 answered.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Did you ever give Mr. Foster
11 anything in a grayish-brown envelope?
12 A I can't recall if I did or did not,
13 in a grayish-brown envelope.
14 Q Did you ever give him anything in a
15 grayish-brown envelope that said "For Your
16 Eyes Only"?
17 A I might have given him gold-colored
18 Craft envelopes that said for his eyes only.
19 Q Where did those envelopes come
20 from?
21 A I don't remember who they came
22 from.
268
1 Q Do you remember what office they
2 came from?
3 A No, I don't.
4 Q Do you remember how they got to the
5 office?
6 A They arrived via our mail messenger
7 service.
8 Q Do you remember what mail messenger
9 service?
10 A It was within The White House.
11 Q Do you know what office it came
12 from?
13 A No, I don't.
14 Q How did you describe them?
15 A They're gold-colored, Craft-colored
16 envelopes.
17 Q Did you ever ask him what was in
18 those envelopes?
19 A Ever ask Mr. Foster.
20 Q Yes.
21 A No.
22 Q Did you ever look in them?
269
1 A No.
2 Q Were they labeled Confidential?
3 A There was usually some label on the
4 outside, Confidential or Eyes Only, Eyes
5 Only.
6 Q So during the time that you worked
7 there up to today you don't have a clue what
8 those gold-colored Craft envelopes were
9 about?
10 A That were delivered to him.
11 Q Yes.
12 A No.
13 Q You never asked him.
14 A No.
15 Q Did you do any filing for
16 Mr. Foster?
17 A I did.
18 Q What did you file?
19 A Whatever he gave me to file on
20 various subjects.
21 Q What was that?
22 A Specifics, information regarding
270
1 the President's mother, regarding the
2 possibility of a personal residence.
3 Q Anything else?
4 A I'm sure there were a lot of
5 things. I just do not remember at this time.
6 Q A personal residence for who?
7 A The President.
8 Q What was that about?
9 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
11 THE WITNESS: He had no personal
12 residence at the time and there were a couple
13 of times where folks would send in brochures
14 and information regarding homes.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Homes that they were going to give
17 the President?
18 A I don't think so.
19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
20 THE WITNESS: I think the
21 possibility of homes that they might purchase
22 to have a residence.
271
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Where did you put the documents
3 that Mr. Foster asked you to file?
4 A Into the file drawers.
5 Q Which file drawers?
6 A Mostly in the outer offices where I
7 was located.
8 Q Can you show us where those file
9 drawers were located? You can draw this on
10 Exhibit 7.
11 MR. MILLS: Maybe we should make a
12 copy and call it Exhibit 8 so we can make
13 more copies of that. It's up to you.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: That's all right.
15 You can draw on 7.
16 THE WITNESS: May I?
17 MR. MILLS: Sure.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q So you put the file cabinets right
20 above where you sat, and there were four of
21 them?
22 A There were two divided into four in
272
1 front of my desk.
2 Q What generically, what kinds of
3 files did you have in there?
4 A Nonsensitive matters, of course,
5 Mrs., I don't recall the President's mother's
6 last name, regarding his mother and breast
7 cancer awareness and I don't remember the
8 rest of the titles of the files.
9 Q I take it you created indices of
10 Mr. Foster's files?
11 A That's correct.
12 Q You did that on your computer?
13 A Yes.
14 Q You stored it on your computer.
15 A Yes.
16 Q You kept a hard copy of those
17 indices of the files?
18 A There was a hard copy, yes.
19 Q When you transferred from the West
20 Wing to the OEOB what happened to those
21 indices?
22 A I have no idea.
273
1 Q Do you know what happened to those
2 indices after Foster died?
3 A No. They remained on the computer,
4 I assumed.
5 Q Did you have a hard copy of them?
6 A Those that were in the file drawers
7 at the time.
8 Q What file drawers were they in?
9 A As diagramed and then the file
10 drawers that were in his office.
11 Q Do you know whether or not those
12 indices disappeared after Foster died?
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
14 THE WITNESS: As in the
15 physical copies? I don't recall that they
16 did. I believe they still might have been in
17 the front of those drawers in the office that
18 I was in.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Do you know whether anyone searched
21 your computer for those indices after
22 Mr. Foster died?
274
1 A No, I don't know.
2 Q Did you ever create in those
3 indices anything labeled "Dale"?
4 A Not that I remember.
5 Q "Travel Office"?
6 A No.
7 Q You don't remember that either?
8 A Don't remember "Travel Office," no.
9 Q So you don't remember one way or
10 the other.
11 A No, I don't.
12 Q Did there come a point in time when
13 you learned that the Travel Office employees
14 were fired?
15 A Yes.
16 Q How did you learn about that?
17 A I believe someone probably told me
18 about that.
19 Q Who told you about that?
20 A I don't remember who.
21 Q What did you understand to have
22 occurred with regard to the firing of the
275
1 Travel Office?
2 A Exactly that, employees in the
3 Travel Office were fired.
4 Q What else did you learn about that
5 incident?
6 A Nothing.
7 Q You had heard that Mrs. Clinton was
8 the one who fired the Travel Office people?
9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form
10 of the question.
11 MR. MILLS: Objection.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
13 THE WITNESS: No, I did not.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Who was making that
15 objection? It seemed like everybody was.
16 MR. MILLS: I made that objection.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: I just don't want to
18 leave anybody out.
19 MR. MAZUR: I thought it was a fine
20 question.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. It was in
22 perfect unison.
276
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q During the time that you worked in
3 The White House you saw memoranda, did you
4 not, that made reference to the Travel
5 Office?
6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
7 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
8 THE WITNESS: At this time I cannot
9 remember if I did or did not.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Did you ever see any document that
12 made reference to the Travel Office?
13 A I'm sorry, I cannot remember. It's
14 just so long ago.
15 Q So you can't say one way or the
16 other?
17 A No, I can't, no.
18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Did you ever see a document from
21 Mrs. Clinton which made reference to firing
22 the Travel Office?
277
1 A No, I didn't.
2 Q That you're sure of.
3 A I think I would have remembered
4 something like that.
5 Q Well, you just told me you couldn't
6 remember whether you saw any document with
7 the Travel Office on it.
8 MR. MILLS: Objection,
9 argumentative.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q How do you reconcile the two
12 statements?
13 A You know, I don't know.
14 Q You can't reconcile it because you
15 don't want to say anything negative about
16 Mrs. Clinton. Correct?
17 MR. MILLS: Objection, form,
18 harassment.
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Correct?
22 A Sir, I never say anything truly
278
1 negative about anyone.
2 Q In fact, you are worried, aren't
3 you, that if you say something that
4 implicates Mrs. Clinton or any high level
5 Clinton appointee that you may wind out being
6 retaliated against?
7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form
8 of the question. It's harassing without any
9 factual basis and I ask Mr. Klayman to
10 withdraw it.
11 MR. MILLS: I join in those
12 objections.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Absolutely not.
14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Answer the question.
17 A No, I'm not worried about anything.
18 Q Did you ever see a document that
19 said, "We need these people out. We need our
20 people in. HRC"?
21 A No.
22 Q You're absolutely certain.
279
1 A Absolutely certain.
2 Q You have read Linda Tripp's
3 testimony that she saw a memorandum on your
4 desk with reference to the Travel Office that
5 said, "We need these people out. We need our
6 people in. HRC." Are you calling Ms. Tripp
7 a liar?
8 MR. MILLS: Objection.
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the
10 form. Mischaracterizes.
11 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form
12 of the question.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Answer the question.
15 MR. MILLS: That's harassing.
16 THE WITNESS: Sir, I did not
17 read 100 percent of Ms. Tripp's testimony.
18 So I did not read that.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Well, let's assume that's her
21 testimony.
22 MR. MILLS: Objection.
280
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Is Ms. Tripp a liar?
3 MR. MILLS: Objection.
4 THE WITNESS: I never saw a memo
5 regarding that.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q So Ms. Tripp's a liar?
8 A I don't know what she saw. I can't
9 speak for her.
10 Q Now, you are aware that Mr. Foster
11 did work on the Travel Office matter?
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
13 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
14 answered.
15 THE WITNESS: I don't remember most
16 of what he worked on.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q You do remember that he did work on
19 Travel Office matters?
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
21 THE WITNESS: Not as of today, no,
22 I don't recall.
281
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q So your mind has gone blank on
3 that?
4 A Very much so.
5 Q Can you rule out knowing that at
6 one time?
7 A No. I suppose I could not rule it
8 out.
9 Q Now, did there come a point in time
10 when you learned that Mr. Foster used the
11 safe in Mr. Nussbaum's office?
12 A I don't know that he ever used the
13 safe in Mr. Nussbaum's office.
14 Q Did you know that there was a safe
15 in Mr. Nussbaum's office?
16 A Yes.
17 Q How did you learn that?
18 A Because I used the safe.
19 Q What did you use the safe for?
20 A To open and close and store a
21 couple of binders and a couple of folders.
22 Q Who told you to use the safe?
282
1 A Mr. Foster.
2 Q What did he tell you to use the
3 safe for?
4 A Binders from the National Security
5 Council.
6 Q What did he tell you that he had
7 binders for the National Security Council
8 for?
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to
10 relevancy.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q In other words, did he tell you why
13 he had access binders from the National
14 Security Council?
15 A No, he did not.
16 Q What did he tell you to do, if
17 anything?
18 A When I received them if he were not
19 in the office to receive them himself, to
20 place them in the safe.
21 Q Did he ever tell you to place
22 anything else in the safe?
283
1 A No.
2 Q Did anyone ever tell you to place
3 anything else in the safe?
4 A No.
5 Q Did you ever place anything else in
6 the safe?
7 A I did not place in the safe;
8 Mr. Nussbaum placed something in the safe.
9 Q Who had access to the safe?
10 A I did and Betsy Pond.
11 Q Mr. Nussbaum?
12 A No, not that I'm aware of.
13 Q Did only you and Betsy Pond have
14 access to that safe?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Did Mr. Marceca have access to the
17 safe?
18 A I don't know.
19 Q Did you know an Anthony Marceca?
20 A No.
21 Q Did Linda Tripp have access to the
22 safe?
284
1 A No.
2 Q How did you have access to the
3 safe?
4 A I had access via the combination.
5 Q Did you ever see Anthony Marceca
6 open the safe?
7 A No.
8 Q Do you know who Anthony Marceca is?
9 A No.
10 Q Who gave you the combination?
11 A Cynthia McManus.
12 Q So she had access to the safe.
13 A That's correct.
14 Q So now it's you, Betsy Pond and
15 Cynthia McManus.
16 A That's correct.
17 Q Why did Ms. Pond have access to the
18 safe?
19 A In case I wasn't there when it was
20 needed to be opened.
21 Q Why did Ms. McManus have access to
22 the safe?
285
1 A Because she arrived before I did.
2 Q Arrived doing what?
3 A Working for Mr. Nussbaum.
4 Q Where is Cynthia McManus today?
5 A I have no idea.
6 Q Have you had contact with her since
7 you've left The White House?
8 A No.
9 Q Do you know of anybody who has?
10 A No.
11 Q Do you know Billy Dale?
12 A No.
13 Q Do you know of him?
14 A No, I can't -- I've heard the name
15 but I can't associate who he is or where he
16 worked.
17 Q Did you ever see him?
18 A No. I don't know what he looks
19 like.
20 Q You do know that he was at one time
21 head of the Travel Office?
22 A No, I don't know that.
286
1 Q Did you ever know a Barney
2 Brasseux?
3 A No.
4 Q Did you ever know anybody at the
5 Travel Office?
6 A Not that I can recall.
7 Q Now, your testimony is you only
8 went into the safe to put National Security
9 materials in there. Correct?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q Do you know specifically what
12 Mr. Nussbaum ever put in the safe?
13 A He placed an envelope in the safe.
14 Q When did he place an envelope in
15 the safe?
16 A Sometime after July 20th.
17 Q Sometime after Vince Foster died.
18 A That's correct.
19 Q How did you come to learn that he
20 placed an envelope in the safe?
21 A Betsy asked me to open up the safe
22 so that an envelope could be placed in there.
287
1 Q How big was the envelope?
2 A It was a regular No. 10 size.
3 Q What color was it?
4 A It was either white or cream. I
5 can't remember which color.
6 Q Manila colored?
7 A It was pale.
8 Q Was that envelope labeled?
9 A I can't remember at this time. I
10 want to say that it was stamped or embossed
11 in the upper left-hand corner with "The White
12 House" but I don't remember if there was any
13 handwriting on the front.
14 Q Did it contain any notations,
15 Confidential, For Your Eyes Only, anything?
16 A Not on the outside that I can
17 recall.
18 Q Do you know where that envelope
19 came from?
20 A No, I don't.
21 Q Only that Betsy gave it to you and
22 told you to put it in the safe?
288
1 A No. I opened the safe for Betsy
2 and she placed it in there.
3 Q She said she had gotten that from
4 Bernie Nussbaum?
5 A I don't recall. But she said she
6 received it from Bernie, but she asked me to
7 open the safe so she could put an envelope of
8 Bernie's in there.
9 Q Did you ask what this was all
10 about?
11 A No, I did not.
12 Q Do you know of anyone who asked
13 what this was all about?
14 A I have no idea what people would
15 ask.
16 Q Do you know of anything else that
17 Mr. Nussbaum put in that safe?
18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form
19 of the question.
20 THE WITNESS: No. That's the only
21 article that I know of during my employment.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
289
1 Q Other than National Security files
2 and this envelope, there were other things in
3 that safe, correct, from time to time when
4 you opened it?
5 A Yes.
6 Q You did see Manila folders in that
7 safe?
8 A No. I retract that. They were
9 envelopes.
10 Q You saw Manila envelopes?
11 A No, they were Goldcraft-colored
12 envelopes.
13 Q The Goldcraft-colored envelopes had
14 designations on them Confidential, For Your
15 Eyes Only?
16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Something like that?
20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
21 THE WITNESS: I don't recall if
22 that was written on the outside or not. I
290
1 was only told that they were sensitive
2 documents.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Who told you that?
5 A Mr. Foster.
6 Q Did he tell you why they were
7 sensitive?
8 A He did not.
9 Q Did you come to learn why they were
10 sensitive?
11 A No.
12 Q Describe these envelopes for me.
13 Were they closed?
14 A They were eight and a half by
15 eleven, and one was not sealed and I do not
16 recall if the other was sealed.
17 Q You only saw two envelopes?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q You did see an envelope labeled
20 "Dale," didn't you, at one time?
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form
291
1 of the question.
2 MR. MILLS: Join in that objection.
3 THE WITNESS: No.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you leave the
5 room again just for a second?
6 (Pause)
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Gaffney, what is
8 wrong with that question?
9 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm not here to
10 discuss my objections with you, Mr. Klayman.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just trying to
12 help the court ferret their way through this.
13 See, I see an uncanny coincidence of
14 objecting like that.
15 MR. GAFFNEY: Well, do what you
16 need to do, Mr. Klayman. I'm entitled to
17 make my objections under the Federal rules.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: You're not entitled
19 to make frivolous ones. I wanted to find out
20 why that was objectionable. Certify it.
21 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm not here to
22 discuss my objections with you.
292
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.*
2 You can bring her back.
3 You saw an envelope in that safe
4 labeled Emory?
5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form
6 of the question.
7 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form
8 of the question.
9 THE WITNESS: I did not.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q You in fact saw more than two
12 envelopes in that safe, didn't you?
13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form
14 of the question.
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
16 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: My counter objection
18 to these objections. Certify it.*
19 THE WITNESS: I did. The two NSC
20 binders.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q On at least one occasion you went
293
1 into that safe in the presence of Linda
2 Tripp. Correct?
3 A I do not remember --
4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the
5 form.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q You don't remember one way or the
8 other?
9 A No. Let me finish please. I do
10 not remember ever opening the safe in Linda
11 Tripp's presence.
12 Q So you're saying unequivocally you
13 never did that or you don't remember?
14 A Unequivocally, I never opened that
15 safe in her presence.
16 Q Why is it you have such a clear
17 memory of that but not such a clear memory of
18 other things?
19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
20 MR. MILLS: Objection.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Can you explain that?
294
1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
2 THE WITNESS: I can. Linda Tripp
3 had only been in our office a very short
4 period of time. I had no idea what her
5 security clearance was.
6 It was my understanding along with
7 Betsy that it was only Betsy and myself who
8 would open the safe and retrieve or take
9 documents out of it. So I was not
10 comfortable in anyone else being around.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q But you didn't have a security
13 clearance either, did you?
14 A I have no idea what they did with
15 my fingerprints or what they did without the
16 form.
17 Q You don't know whether Betsy had a
18 security clearance, do you?
19 A No, I never asked. It's not my
20 business.
21 Q So you made it a special point to
22 exclude Linda Tripp not knowing whether Betsy
295
1 Pond had a security clearance either. Is
2 that what you are telling me?
3 MR. MILLS: Objection, foundation.
4 THE WITNESS: That is correct.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Are you telling me that even on one
7 occasion you didn't open the safe to let
8 Linda Tripp put anything in that safe?
9 MR. MILLS: Objection.
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and
11 answered.
12 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, I'm telling you
14 that.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Now, at some point in time Linda
17 Tripp started working in that office.
18 Correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q She was the executive assistant to
21 Bernie Nussbaum. Correct?
22 A That was her title.
296
1 Q As executive assistant to Bernard
2 Nussbaum, she worked for somebody who was
3 superior in rank to the person you worked
4 for, Mr. Foster. Correct?
5 A I believe you could say that.
6 Q You did perform work or you did do
7 things at the request of Mr. Nussbaum from
8 time to time, didn't you?
9 A Things, how do you define "things"?
10 Q Anything. There were requests made
11 by Mr. Nussbaum to do things. Correct?
12 A Of course.
13 Q As Mr. Nussbaum's executive
14 assistant if Ms. Tripp came to you and said,
15 "I'd like you to do this," you wouldn't
16 refuse, would you?
17 A Let me tell you that Linda worked
18 for Betsy Pond.
19 Q It calls for a yes or no.
20 MR. MILLS: No. No. Let the
21 witness answer the question please,
22 Mr. Klayman. Go ahead.
297
1 THE WITNESS: Linda Tripp arrived a
2 very short time before Mr. Foster died. I
3 worked with Betsy obviously much longer than
4 with Linda Tripp. Linda Tripp was on a
5 volunteer status or a detailed status from
6 the Correspondence Unit.
7 I had no idea, I'd never met Linda,
8 I didn't know her background, but I'd worked
9 with Betsy a little bit longer. So only
10 based on that there was some camandery on
11 what our procedures would be.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q So when handling classified
14 materials your criteria was commandery?
15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection.
16 MR. MILLS: Objection.
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Argumentative.
18 THE WITNESS: No. My criteria was
19 that Linda worked for Betsy. Linda assisted
20 Betsy in whatever Betsy needed for her to do.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q But Linda ultimately worked for
298
1 Bernard Nussbaum. Correct?
2 A I have no idea.
3 Q You just testified that you knew
4 that Linda was the executive assistant to
5 Bernard Nussbaum.
6 A No. I stated that was her title.
7 Q You discounted her title?
8 A No, I don't discount her title.
9 Everyone must have one. But she worked for
10 Mr. Nussbaum through Betsy.
11 Q Does that mean she didn't work for
12 Mr. Nussbaum?
13 A I'm not saying that.
14 Q Are you aware that Ms. Tripp
15 testified when she was deposed in this case
16 that you opened up the safe in her presence?
17 A I am.
18 Q Are you calling Ms. Tripp a liar?
19 MR. MILLS: Objection. It's
20 arguing with the witness.
21 THE WITNESS: Sir, I never call
22 anyone a liar. But I never opened the safe
299
1 for Linda Tripp.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Are you saying Ms. Tripp's lying?
4 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
5 answered. The witness has already answered
6 that.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q You have to answer.
9 A I did answer.
10 Q Are you calling --
11 A I call no one a liar.
12 Q Are you saying she's lying?
13 A I am not saying that she is lying.
14 Q As part of your duties and
15 responsibilities in working for Vince Foster,
16 you kept his office neat and clean, didn't
17 you?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Mr. Foster was a very neat and
20 clean person. Correct?
21 A As it would appear topically, yes.
22 Q As what?
300
1 A As it would appear topically, yes.
2 Q What does topically mean?
3 A He didn't have papers and documents
4 or, you know, McDonald's wrappers strewn all
5 over the floor.
6 Q He had very infrequently documents
7 on his desk. Correct?
8 A I did not look on his desk.
9 Q You never glanced at his desk?
10 A No.
11 Q Never glanced in the direction of
12 his desk?
13 A Perhaps in the direction but not
14 towards his desk.
15 Q He wasn't the kind of person that
16 had a lot of clutter in his office. Correct?
17 A There was no clutter on his chairs
18 or his table, by his chairs or on his floor,
19 no.
20 Q There was no clutter on the top of
21 his desk, generally.
22 A I don't know if you would consider
301
1 it clutter or not, but there were, there was
2 something on his desk.
3 Q Well, you've worked for a lot of
4 lawyers, haven't you?
5 A A few.
6 Q Most of them are pretty sloppy,
7 aren't they?
8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the
9 form.
10 MR. MILLS: Objection.
11 THE WITNESS: Are you asking for my
12 opinion?
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Yeah.
15 A About lawyers?
16 Q Yeah.
17 A No, I don't think they are sloppy.
18 Q They have a lot of paper on their
19 desk?
20 A They have a lot of stacks on their
21 desk, yes.
22 Q Right. Right. Foster wasn't that
302
1 kind of lawyer.
2 A What kind of lawyer?
3 Q That had a lot of stacks and things
4 laying around.
5 A I don't know how many stacks he
6 had, but he certainly had stacks on his desk.
7 Q Stacks of what?
8 A I don't know.
9 Q Don't have a clue.
10 A No. Why would I?
11 Q Because you worked for him.
12 MR. MILLS: Objection.
13 THE WITNESS: What does that mean,
14 sir?
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q You are aware that Ms. Tripp
17 testified that there was a meeting in Vince
18 Foster's office with Maggie Williams, Bill
19 Kennedy, Catherine Cornelius, Harry Tomasson,
20 Dave Watkins and Vince Foster; you're aware
21 of that, aren't you?
22 A I believe I read that in her
303
1 testimony.
2 Q You're aware that she testified
3 that after that meeting you and her went into
4 that office to look at some photographs.
5 A I read that as well.
6 Q You're aware that when she was in
7 that office she saw sitting there in Foster's
8 desk a file labeled "Dale." Correct?
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the
10 form.
11 THE WITNESS: I read that
12 testimony, yes.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q You are aware that around that file
15 were other files in a Redweld that looked
16 similar.
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
18 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
19 THE WITNESS: Is that what she
20 testified to?
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Well I'm asking you, are you aware
304
1 of that?
2 A I don't remember reading that.
3 Q You're aware that she testified
4 that she'd never seen files like that before?
5 A I can't recall if I read that or
6 not.
7 Q Is Ms. Tripp lying about that?
8 MR. MILLS: Objection.
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form,
10 compound.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Is it your view she's lying about
13 that?
14 A Lying about what, sir?
15 Q What I just said to you.
16 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form
17 of the question.
18 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, which was?
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q The whole recitation of what she
21 claims she observed when she walked into
22 Vince Foster's office after this meeting.
305
1 A Sir, I don't know what she
2 observed.
3 Q Is she lying?
4 A I have no idea.
5 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
6 answered. Badgering the witness.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Now, she also said that she asked
9 you what the subject of the meeting was and
10 you wrote down on a pad "Travel Office
11 meeting." Do you remember that?
12 A Do I remember writing that?
13 Q No. Do you remember her testifying
14 to that?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Is Ms. Tripp a liar about that?
17 MR. MILLS: Objection.
18 THE WITNESS: Sir, I don't know
19 about a Travel Office meeting, nor did my
20 boss ever tell me what his meetings were
21 about.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
306
1 Q Are you calling Ms. Tripp a liar?
2 A Sir, I never call anyone a liar.
3 Q Is she lying?
4 A I have no idea.
5 Q Now, you are aware that Ms. Tripp
6 also testified that you told her of David
7 Watkins' involvement in the Travel Office
8 matter. Are you aware of that?
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
10 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
11 THE WITNESS: I do not remember
12 reviewing that in her testimony if she did.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Let's show that to you.
15 A Okay.
16 MR. GAFFNEY: Mr. Klayman, can I
17 ask the witness to leave the room for one
18 minute? Because I want to return to the
19 matter you and I were discussing while she
20 was out of the room.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll do it on a
22 break?
307
1 MR. GAFFNEY: I want it on the
2 record. Do you want to do it afterward?
3 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine.
4 (Gorham Deposition Exhibit No. 8
5 was marked for identification.)
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Turn to Page 55 of that transcript.
8 Do you see, I want to turn your attention to
9 Line 14 through 17 on Page 54 and 1
10 through 12 on 55. Let me read this to you.
11 "What were Mr. Watkins' job title
12 and responsibilities?"
13 Mr. Klayman, "Right."
14 The Witness, "I don't remember
15 right now. Director of Administration maybe
16 or White House something or other. I don't
17 know. It was sort of an operations manager
18 as I understood it. He had a far more
19 dignified title."
20 Question, "you later became aware
21 that he had involvement in the Travel
22 Office?"
308
1 Ms. Shapiro, "Objection."
2 Mr. Klayman, "Just for
3 identification."
4 Answer, "Yes."
5 "How did he become aware of that?"
6 Ms. Shapiro, "Same objection."
7 Question, "You Can respond."
8 "Again, through several sources, Catherine
9 Cornelius, Clarissa Cerda, Deb Gorham,
10 personal observations."
11 Are you telling me that Ms. Tripp
12 is lying, that you didn't tell her about
13 Mr. Watkins' involvement in the Travel
14 Office?
15 MR. MILLS: Objection.
16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
17 THE WITNESS: Sir, I had no
18 knowledge Mr. Watkins' was involved in the
19 Travel Office.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Are you calling Ms. Tripp a liar?
22 MR. MILLS: Objection. This is
309
1 repetitive and harassing.
2 THE WITNESS: Sir, I never call
3 anyone a liar. Perhaps she's disillusioned
4 or is uncertain at that time that I spoke
5 with her about that, but I did not.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Are you saying she's lying?
8 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
9 answered.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Now, Ms. Tripp also says that you
12 referenced the Billy Dale file that she says
13 she saw on Foster's desk after an occasion
14 when you went in there and saw that file when
15 you were looking at photographs.
16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Is she lying about that, too?
19 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
20 answered, several times.
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
310
1 Q You can respond.
2 A Sir, I don't know who Billy Dale
3 is, and I do not know what files if any were
4 on Mr. Foster's desk.
5 Q Are you saying that Ms. Tripp is
6 not telling the truth?
7 MR. MILLS: Objection.
8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
9 THE WITNESS: Sir, I never call
10 anyone a liar. Perhaps she's wrong.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Some people do lie, don't they?
13 A Absolutely.
14 Q In fact some people deserve the
15 title of liar, don't they?
16 A Some are more compulsive than
17 others.
18 Q Right. So you are saying that you
19 just don't recognize the concept of lying?
20 MR. MILLS: Objection. This is
21 arguing with the witness, badgering the
22 witness. It's unnecessary.
311
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Is that your point of view?
3 A No, sir, it's not.
4 Q So consequently, the word does
5 exist in the English language and some people
6 lie. Correct?
7 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form.
8 Continuing objection to this line of
9 questioning.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Correct?
12 A Sir, some people lie and some
13 people are uncertain about the truth, and
14 some people make mistakes.
15 Q You sometimes are uncertain about
16 the truth as a human being. Correct?
17 MR. MILLS: Objection.
18 THE WITNESS: About whose truth?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q About any truth.
22 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form
312
1 of the question.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Correct?
4 A Sir, I can only tell you what the
5 truth is for me.
6 Q Sometimes you're mistaken.
7 Correct?
8 A I do make mistakes.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll take a little
10 break.
11 MR. MILLS: How long of a break are
12 we going to take?
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Gaffney wants to
14 say something. Let's have the witness leave.
15 MR. MILLS: This is not a break,
16 this is still on the record.
17 MR. GILLIGAN: Why don't we do this
18 on the record. Have the witness leave and
19 you do this on the record.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Do whatever you want
21 to say on the record.
22 THE WITNESS: Just to let you know,
313
1 we've got three minutes on this tape.
2 MR. GAFFNEY: It shouldn't take
3 that long. Mr. Klayman, previously you asked
4 the witness to leave the room and you asked
5 for an explanation, the basis for an
6 objection to form I made to a question.
7 I believe the question was to the
8 effect "isn't it true that you saw a file
9 with the name 'Dale' on it in the safe." I
10 believe that was the gist of that.
11 My objection is on the ground that
12 that's a leading question, improper objection
13 to form. I agree with your statement earlier
14 this week that the statement of objection to
15 form is all you need to say and
16 characterizing the question.
17 However, I'm happy to give you that
18 basis for the objection.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: She worked for The
20 White House, didn't she?
21 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm not here to
22 answer questions.
314
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you saying I
2 can't ask leading questions to an adverse
3 question?
4 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm saying I'm going
5 to object to the form of any leading question
6 I feel like making an objection to.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Under any
8 circumstances.
9 MR. GAFFNEY: I've made an
10 objection on the basis of a leading question.
11 It's a proper objection.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Is it your position
13 that in the law you can never ask a leading
14 question?
15 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm not here to argue
16 the law with you, Mr. Klayman.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: So we're back where
18 we started. Let's take a break.
19 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm entitled to make
20 objections to your leading questions. You've
21 not established any basis to lead this
22 witness.
315
1 MR. MILLS: How long a break,
2 Mr. Klayman? Five minutes?
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Five minutes is fine.
4 MR. MILLS: Thank you.
5 THE WITNESS: Going off video
6 record at 3:18.
7 (Recess)
8 THE WITNESS: We're back on video
9 record at 3:30.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Did you ever communicate with Linda
12 Tripp by E-mail when you were at The White
13 House?
14 A I don't remember doing that, but I
15 understand from the records before the Senate
16 that there were electronic messages that I
17 communicated with her.
18 Q Is that a good example of how you
19 frequently forget things?
20 MR. MILLS: Objection.
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
22 MR. MILLS: To the form of the
316
1 question.
2 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I don't
3 know what a good example is or a bad example.
4 But it's certainly an example.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Did you ever communicate with
7 Ms. Tripp about what was in Vince Foster's
8 briefcase at the time he died?
9 A I don't remember if we had a
10 conversation to that effect or not.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah. I'll show you
12 what I'll ask the court reporter to mark as
13 the next exhibit.
14 (Gorham Deposition Exhibit No. 9
15 was marked for identification.)
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Showing you Exhibit 9, I'll ask you
18 to turn to Page 742. Mr. Fitton can help you
19 find that.
20 A Okay.
21 Q Does that refresh your recollection
22 as to whether you ever communicated with
317
1 Ms. Tripp about what was in Foster's
2 briefcase after he died?
3 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form
4 of the question.
5 THE WITNESS: No, sir, it does not.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Can you tell me whether you ever
8 looked in Mr. Foster's briefcase after he
9 died?
10 A No, I don't recall looking in his
11 briefcase.
12 Q Ever before or after he died.
13 A No, not looking in his briefcase.
14 Q Turn to Page 744. Do you see where
15 it shows that you sent an E-mail to Linda
16 Tripp and it says, "I do not know what else
17 in there but the bag is totally cleaned out
18 except for one collar stay"? Do you remember
19 writing that?
20 A No, sir, I don't.
21 Q Do you remember anything about a
22 collar stay?
318
1 A No, sir, I'm sorry, I don't
2 remember that.
3 Q When you said, "I do not know what
4 else in there but the bag," what bag were you
5 referring to?
6 MR. MILLS: Objection. It says "I
7 do not know what else was in there."
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Whatever it says.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Do you remember making any
11 reference to a bag?
12 A No, sir, I don't remember what it
13 is.
14 Q Do you know what bag you're
15 referring to?
16 A No, I don't.
17 Q Did Mr. Foster have a burn bag?
18 A He did.
19 Q Did he burn things in that bag?
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
21 THE WITNESS: No, he didn't. It
22 was set out at night for --
319
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q It was what?
3 A The bag was set out at night for
4 those in charge to pick them up and take them
5 to wherever they were to be taken to be
6 burned.
7 Q Do you know if Mr. Foster ever put
8 anything in that burn bag?
9 A I know that he did on occasion that
10 had items in there.
11 Q Did he discuss with you a procedure
12 for putting things in that burn bag?
13 A No, sir, not in his burn bag.
14 Q A procedure to put in anybody
15 else's burn bag?
16 A No, he never discussed it with me.
17 Q Are you aware of anything that ever
18 specifically was put in the burn bag? In
19 other words, do you know of any specific
20 document or thing that was ever put in that
21 burn bag?
22 A In his burn bag?
320
1 Q Yeah.
2 A Not that I can recall.
3 Q Did other people have burn bags?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q Who else?
6 A I had one, or I used one. I can't
7 remember if we all shared that burn bag in
8 the outer office or not. But it was kept
9 behind my desk.
10 Q Did Mr. Nussbaum have a burn bag?
11 A As of today, I can't remember if he
12 had one or not.
13 Q Why did you have a burn bag?
14 A I don't know that it specifically
15 belonged to me but it was right behind my
16 desk.
17 Q What were you advised if anything
18 about what the burn bag was for?
19 A I'm sorry, to this day I cannot
20 remember the stipulations of what was to be
21 placed in a burn bag and what was to be
22 placed in a trash can.
321
1 Q Who gave you those stipulations?
2 A I can't remember what the
3 stipulations were, so --
4 Q No, but who relayed them to you?
5 A I cannot remember who did.
6 Q Were they in writing?
7 A I don't know. I don't recall.
8 Q Was it done orally?
9 A I don't remember.
10 Q What is it your understanding
11 should be in the burn bag for destruction,
12 what kind of documents do you put in there?
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and
14 answered.
15 THE WITNESS: Sir, I don't recall
16 what was to be separated between the burn bag
17 and the trash.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Did you ever know?
20 A I'm sure I did.
21 Q Do you have any general
22 understanding as to how you decide whether to
322
1 burn something or keep it?
2 A No, not at this time. I can only
3 assume that perhaps it was what was to go in
4 the burn bag was documents to be shredded or
5 to be recycled, you know, to be burned, you
6 know, separated from trash such as lunches.
7 Q Did Mr. Foster ever discuss the
8 criteria for putting things in burn bags with
9 you?
10 A I don't recall our conversation if
11 we had one.
12 Q Did Mr. Nussbaum?
13 A I don't recall a conversation.
14 Q Did Betsy Pond?
15 A Sorry. I don't recall a
16 conversation regarding that -- in respect
17 that it's been so long.
18 Q Linda Tripp?
19 A No, I'm sorry.
20 Q That other fellow, Mr. Castleton?
21 A No.
22 Q Mr. Kennedy?
323
1 A No.
2 Q Was it your understanding that it
3 was up to Foster and Nussbaum to decide what
4 to put into the burn bag and that you
5 shouldn't really know what it was?
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
7 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
8 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I didn't
9 have an understanding that it was their
10 decision alone.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q But you did understand there were
13 some things that for whatever reason
14 shouldn't be kept.
15 A I'm sure I did at one time have an
16 understanding of what differentiated between
17 trash and the burn bag.
18 Q Your understanding was, is that you
19 should burn stuff that could get Mr. Foster
20 or Mr. Nussbaum in legal difficulty?
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
22 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form
324
1 of the question.
2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
3 THE WITNESS: Sir, to this day I do
4 not know what the differentiation was.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Did all this seem very mysterious
7 to you at the time?
8 A What?
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q The fact that there was a burn bag,
12 you wore working for one of the principal
13 lawyers in the office and don't really know
14 what the criteria was for burning stuff?
15 MR. MILLS: Objection,
16 mischaracterization.
17 THE WITNESS: Does it seem
18 mysterious to you or to me?
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q To you.
21 A That I don't remember today?
22 Q Yes.
325
1 A No, it's not mysterious to me.
2 Q Turn to your calendar which is
3 Exhibit 6, the entry on July 21st at 7:15.
4 A July 21st, did you say?
5 Q Do you see that E-mail?
6 A Yes.
7 Q That's your handwriting, isn't it?
8 A It is.
9 Q What was your reference to E-mail
10 all about?
11 A I do not know.
12 Q Were you taking a course in E-mail?
13 A I do not recall what that is about.
14 Q You made a reference to E-mail on
15 that date so you would remember to erase all
16 your E-mail?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
18 MR. MILLS: Objection.
19 THE WITNESS: Sir, Mr. Klayman, I
20 do not know what the reference of E-mail is
21 on that particular day and particular time.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
326
1 Q Did you ever have a discussion with
2 Mr. Nussbaum about seeing anything in Vince
3 Foster's briefcase?
4 A I did.
5 Q What did you tell Mr. Nussbaum?
6 A That out of the corner of my eye I
7 saw the color of yellow.
8 Q What else did you tell
9 Mr. Nussbaum?
10 A I believe that I might have seen a
11 Goldcraft Manila envelope, gold-colored
12 Manila envelope as in the top edge of the
13 folder, excuse me.
14 Q These were the same kinds of Manila
15 envelopes that you had seen in Vince Foster's
16 office?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
18 MR. MILLS: Objection to form.
19 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I gave him
20 Manila or sometimes called vanilla envelopes,
21 the pale cream, and this one was of a
22 Goldcraft color.
327
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Had you ever seen such an envelope
3 before?
4 A Folder, top folder? I don't recall
5 if there were that, if there were many of
6 those in our office or not.
7 Q Did you testify in front of the
8 Senate that the envelope was a Manila type
9 folder?
10 A I believe I might have described it
11 as a gold-colored folder, but I'd have to
12 review my testimony.
13 Q Had you ever seen a folder like
14 this before?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and
16 answered.
17 THE WITNESS: Possibly.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Where had you seen them?
20 A I don't recall.
21 Q These were folders that came in
22 sometimes marked Confidential or for Your
328
1 Eyes Only, folders like that, correct?
2 A No, sir.
3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
4 THE WITNESS: Those were envelopes.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q This Manila type folder was an FBI
7 file, wasn't it?
8 MR. MILLS: Objection.
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
10 MR. MILLS: Form.
11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form
12 of the question.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q It might have been?
15 MR. MILLS: Objection.
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form
18 of the question.
19 THE WITNESS: I have no idea what
20 it was.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q It might have been?
329
1 A I have no idea what it was. I only
2 saw the top of the folder.
3 Q It was labeled?
4 A I do not remember if it was labeled
5 or not.
6 Q I'll turn your attention to
7 Page 620 of your Senate testimony. Turn down
8 to the bottom of the page wherein it says,
9 this is you speaking, "Mr. Nussbaum asked me
10 to sit in the chair on the opposite side of
11 his table and asked me if I had seen anything
12 in the bottom of Vince's briefcase.
13 I told him that I had only seen the
14 color yellow, and I had seen the top of the
15 Goldcraft third-cut folder, and that was all
16 I had seen." Mr. Chertoff, "When you say a
17 Goldcraft third-cut folder, do you mean a
18 folder like this, a Manila envelope?"
19 MR. MILLS: Objection. That's not
20 the words. You said "a Manila envelope." It
21 actually says "a Manila-type folder" in the
22 text.
330
1 MR. KLAYMAN: I just read this.
2 Was it necessary for you to inject that?
3 MR. MILLS: Actually I think it
4 was. One of the standards for the D.C.
5 Voluntary Code requires that attorneys not
6 intentionally mischaracterize the record. I
7 am sure you weren't doing it intentionally,
8 so I was trying to assist you by pointing out
9 the actual words on the page.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: I haven't asked my
11 question yet.
12 MR. MILLS: I think it would be
13 helpful to have the witness understand the
14 actual words.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: This is highly
16 inappropriate and is in fact feeding
17 testimony to the witness. This is what I'm
18 talking about. Why is that necessary?
19 MR. MILLS: Because you misstated
20 the word in material manner.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: It's also not only in
22 the D.C. Code of Voluntary Conduct, but it's
331
1 also in our Rule of Ethics that we as
2 officers of the court are not to subvert
3 justice, are not to subvert the truth. When
4 you do stuff like that, it does have the
5 impact of tainting the testimony which means
6 that justice is not going to be done. I ask
7 that you not do that again.
8 MR. MILLS: That's interesting.
9 I've listened to you. Can I respond? My
10 response is in fact I agree with you that we
11 should not be subverting justice. I think it
12 would be subverting justice to leave the
13 record as you misread the actual words in the
14 transcript that you're reading to the witness
15 into the record.
16 It's not subverting justice to make
17 a correction of fact on the record. In fact,
18 I think it's advancing the cause of justice
19 which is what we all are here for, I'm sure.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: I read it exactly as
21 I saw it.
22 MR. MILLS: Well, then perhaps
332
1 you'd like to read it again.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll read it again.
3 The answer will be worthless.
4 MR. MILLS: Perhaps, we could read
5 back what the reporter actually got and see
6 if we made a mistake; and if you got it
7 right, I apologize.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll let the record
9 speak for itself. I just want to move on.
10 MR. MILLS: That's fine.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: If you have a problem
12 in the future, ask the witness to leave and
13 you can raise the problem with me. If I made
14 a mistake, I'll correct it.
15 MR. MILLS: I don't even know what
16 your question is.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: That's the point, I
18 hadn't even asked the question yet.
19 MR. MILLS: You were reading text
20 from a transcript and misstated it in a
21 material manner. Honestly, all I was doing
22 was correcting it, Mr. Klayman. That's all I
333
1 was doing.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: The record is clear
3 what you're doing. The record is clear the
4 way I get quadruple-teamed by objections
5 every time I ask a question.
6 MR. MILLS: I'm only representing
7 one witness.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: I ask simply that if
9 you want to do that again, take a timeout,
10 have the witness leave the room. If I have
11 made an inadvertent mistake, I'll be happy to
12 correct it, but not to inject this in front
13 of the witness.
14 MR. MILLS: Mr. Klayman, it was not
15 my decision so sue multiple parties. The
16 reason there are a lot of people in this room
17 is because there are multiple parties and
18 they have to be represented. I'm only
19 interested in the representation of my
20 client.
21 You misquoted something and I
22 corrected it. There is no reason for the
334
1 witness to leave the room. I have no problem
2 moving on.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: You can have as much
4 time for cross-examination as you want. If I
5 misstated it, you can go back and do it, but
6 not in front of the witness. Like I said, if
7 you ask her to leave, I will correct it if I
8 made an inadvertent mistake.
9 All I want is the truth. I'll let
10 the testimony before the committee speak for
11 itself at this point because there is no
12 point in asking any questions. Are you
13 pleased, Mr. Gaffney?
14 MR. GAFFNEY: Excuse me,
15 Mr. Klayman.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: You're smiling.
17 MR. GAFFNEY: You're moving on.
18 That's what you said. By the way, please
19 don't take my silence in response to your
20 speeches to be in agreement with them. I
21 happen to agree with Mr. Mills that it was
22 inappropriate for you to misread the
335
1 testimony.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Laughing and smirking
3 is another aspect of the way that I'm being
4 harassed here today. Interruptions,
5 laughing, smirking, leading objections that
6 have no basis, this is what this proceeding
7 has become.
8 MR. MILLS: That's the second time
9 you've said that. I haven't heard laughing
10 and smirking. The only thing that happened
11 here is you were trying to establish one
12 thing and it seems like you were
13 intentionally misciting the record, and I
14 consider that to be subverting justice.
15 That's why I pointed it out as an error.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll let the court
17 decide exactly what happened here. I think
18 the record is clear. I just ask that if I
19 inadvertently make a mistake, ask the witness
20 to leave the room before you spew forth on
21 the record something which can tip the
22 witness off to a response.
336
1 MR. MILLS: Are you saying it would
2 tip off the witness to the proper response by
3 pointing out that it was not in fact "a
4 Manila-type folder" in the actual transcript,
5 it was in fact what you said which was an
6 envelope?
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Don't do that again.
8 Please stop. Please stop.
9 MR. MILLS: I'm happy to stop and
10 move on. I thought that's where we were.
11 You said you were done with questions on this
12 subject.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Did there come a point in time when
15 you left working in that West Wing suite and
16 moved over to work in the OEOB?
17 A Yes.
18 Q What was the reason for your move?
19 A As I had stated, there was not a
20 lot of work for me to do once my supervisor
21 died. Because it was an unchallenging place,
22 because of that fact and I knew that
337
1 Mr. Kennedy's detail would be leaving very
2 soon, I offered to go over and help folks at
3 the Old EOB.
4 Q Was the reason you wanted to leave
5 to get away from the memory of Vince Foster
6 and what had happened?
7 A No.
8 Q Not in any respect?
9 A No.
10 Q You moved over to the Old EOB and
11 you began to work for William Kennedy?
12 A Actually, Cheryl Mills.
13 Q Cheryl Mills. Who did you discuss
14 your move with before you made it?
15 A I don't recall exactly whom. I'm
16 sure I spoke with Betsy about it and
17 Mr. Nussbaum.
18 Q What did you tell Betsy Pond?
19 A I don't recall exactly. I believe
20 I just simply offered to help them out since
21 they were becoming lack of staff and I really
22 didn't have much work to do.
338
1 Q What did you say to Bernard
2 Nussbaum?
3 A I don't remember exactly what our
4 conversation was. But since he would be my
5 immediate supervisor I asked if that were
6 permissible for me to do that.
7 Q Did there come a point in time when
8 you talked to Bill Kennedy or Cheryl Mills
9 about what you'd be doing in the Old EOB?
10 A I suppose there was, yes.
11 Q Who did you talk to first, Cheryl
12 Mills?
13 A I don't remember if I spoke with
14 Bill or Cheryl first. I knew that Bill's
15 detailed employee was leaving very shortly
16 and so I went to work with Cheryl's office
17 and then moved to Mr. Kennedy's office when
18 his employee left.
19 Q What did Ms. Mills tell you about
20 your duties and responsibilities at the OEOB?
21 A I don't remember our conversation.
22 I'm sure it was typically, you know, answer
339
1 phones, take messages.
2 Q What did you understand Cheryl
3 Mills' duties and responsibilities to be?
4 A I did not have any idea what her
5 responsibilities were, only her title.
6 Q Did you ever work for Joel Klein?
7 A No, sir.
8 Q Did you ever talk to him when you
9 were at The White House?
10 A No, I did not.
11 Q Did you ever talk to his secretary?
12 A Only on the last day of my
13 departure.
14 Q What did you say to his secretary?
15 A I was seated there outside at her
16 desk, outside Mr. Klein's office and
17 Mr. Nussbaum's office. It was the day of my
18 going away party. I simply just exchanged
19 pleasantries with her.
20 Q At the time that you talked to
21 Cheryl Mills, did you have any knowledge as
22 to whether or not she was involved in some of
340
1 the so-called Clinton scandals?
2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
4 MR. MILLS: Objection to form.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q You can respond.
7 A No, sir. I had no idea what her
8 responsibilities were nor what matters she
9 was working on.
10 Q Was it ever said to you that "you
11 are going to go over to work with Cheryl
12 Mills so Ms. Mills can keep an eye on you,"
13 did you ever hear anybody say anything like
14 that?
15 MR. MILLS: Objection, foundation.
16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
17 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I never
18 heard that.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Did you ever have that feeling that
21 they wanted you to work over there with
22 Cheryl Mills and Bill Kennedy so they could
341
1 keep track of you?
2 MR. MILLS: Objection.
3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection.
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
5 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q That maybe you knew too much?
8 MR. MILLS: Objection.
9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
11 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Did there come a point in time when
14 you worked with Cheryl Mills at the OEOB?
15 A Yes, of course.
16 Q What specifically was your title
17 there?
18 A I don't know if my title changed or
19 not. I don't recall if it did.
20 Q Then what were your specific duties
21 and responsibilities once you actually got on
22 the job?
342
1 A Really simply to answer her phones
2 for her and take messages.
3 Q Did you ever take any messages from
4 Mrs. Clinton or her office?
5 A I don't remember if I did or did
6 not.
7 Q Did you come to learn better what
8 Cheryl Mills did in The White House Counsel's
9 office?
10 A No, I didn't.
11 Q Did you ever take any calls from
12 the President?
13 A I don't remember if I did or did
14 not, no.
15 Q You might have?
16 A I might have, yes, or I might not
17 have. That was very long ago and a very
18 short period of time that I worked her.
19 Q You're not aware that the President
20 sometimes had contact with Ms. Mills?
21 A No, sir, I'm not aware if they had
22 contact.
343
1 Q Did there come a point in time when
2 you shifted from working for Ms. Mills to
3 Mr. Kennedy?
4 A Yes.
5 Q When was that?
6 A That was approximately
7 October 1, 1993.
8 Q Why did you shift from Ms. Mills to
9 Mr. Kennedy?
10 A Mr. Kennedy's secretary detail
11 returned to their government agency.
12 Q Who was that secretary?
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
14 THE WITNESS: I don't recall her
15 name, only her face.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Do you remember her first name?
18 A No, I don't, just her face.
19 Q I take it you met with Mr. Kennedy
20 and he described for you what your duties and
21 responsibilities were going to be working
22 with him?
344
1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
2 THE WITNESS: I don't know that we
3 ever had an official discussion. I perceived
4 my ability, my responsibilities would be
5 simply to answer phones. I was later asked
6 to type labels for file folders.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Who all asked you to type labels
9 for file folders?
10 A One of the attorneys there on
11 detail.
12 Q Who was that?
13 A I don't recall her name, just her
14 face.
15 Q What did her face look like?
16 A She was a young black woman,
17 probably no more than 30, very attractive,
18 well groomed.
19 Q Do you know where she is today?
20 A No, I don't.
21 Q Do you know who would know who she
22 is?
345
1 A I suppose people who remember more
2 than I do.
3 Q When you moved from the West Wing
4 to the OEOB, you took your computer with you?
5 A I actually did not physically move
6 it myself. It was moved by, I don't know if
7 it was someone in General Services or someone
8 in their internal technology department. But
9 it ended up in the office of Cheryl Mills,
10 yes.
11 Q You requested to take your computer
12 with you.
13 A I don't know that I requested it,
14 sir. But they were lacking in a computer and
15 I don't know if Cheryl requested it or I did,
16 but that's where it ended.
17 Q Do you know of any other instance
18 in The White House where an employee has
19 moved from one office to the next and taken
20 his or her computer with him?
21 MR. MILLS: Objection to form.
22 THE WITNESS: No, I have no
346
1 knowledge about that.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Did you sign a form or do you know
4 of anyone who did to get your computer moved
5 from the West Wing to the OEOB?
6 A No, sir, I can't recall if anything
7 was necessary in that respect.
8 Q You wanted to take that computer
9 with you because you didn't want it to get
10 out of your possession. Correct?
11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
12 MR. MILLS: Objection.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
14 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q You were concerned what was on that
17 computer. Correct?
18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
19 MR. MILLS: Objection.
20 THE WITNESS: No, sir, other than
21 my resume.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
347
1 Q They had computers in the OEOB,
2 didn't they?
3 A I'm sure they did.
4 Q When that computer was moved from
5 the West Wing to the OEOB, was it
6 instantaneous or were there some days in
7 between your leaving the West Wing going to
8 the OEOB and your getting that computer to
9 join you?
10 A I don't recall if there was any lag
11 time or not.
12 Q Do you know whether or not between
13 that period anything was wiped off the hard
14 drive of that computer?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
16 THE WITNESS: I would have no
17 knowledge of that.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q You don't know one way or the
20 other?
21 A No, sir, I do not.
22 Q Did you check the computer when it
348
1 arrived from the West Wing to see whether
2 files had been deleted from that computer?
3 A No, sir, I didn't.
4 Q So you don't know whether that
5 computer had been sanitized.
6 A No, I do not.
7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q You say you were asked to type
10 files for Mr. Kennedy, file folders. What
11 specifically were you told about typing file
12 folders?
13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form
14 of the question.
15 MR. MILLS: Objection.
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
17 THE WITNESS: I was asked to type
18 the labels that would be placed on file
19 folders.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q What were you told about that task?
22 A Simply how they were typed, what
349
1 order, and where they were typed and how
2 large the folder, the files -- how large the
3 labels were.
4 Q How did you go about doing that?
5 A On a manual typewriter.
6 Q Where did you get the names to type
7 the labels from?
8 A I don't recall how it was conveyed
9 to me. Perhaps on a piece of paper,
10 handwritten. I don't remember.
11 Q They were the names of individuals?
12 A They were the names of people, yes.
13 Q Do you know how those names, why
14 you were typing those names in the file
15 folders?
16 A No, I do not know why.
17 Q Those were the names of people that
18 were in the security clearance process, were
19 they not?
20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
21 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
22 THE WITNESS: I don't know really
350
1 what the security process was or what the
2 reasoning was for.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Did anyone ever explain that to
5 you?
6 A I don't remember if it was
7 explained to me or not or if it was simply a
8 request to type these names.
9 Q Do you know what types of names
10 these were, were they Judicial appointments?
11 A No, sir. I only recall that these
12 names went on folders for Presidential
13 appointments within the Administration.
14 Q How did you learn that?
15 A The young black woman that I spoke
16 about whose name I do not remember conveyed
17 to me that these were for appointments within
18 the Administration.
19 Q You put these names on file
20 folders.
21 A That's correct.
22 Q Does the name Bobby Inman ring a
351
1 bell, did you type a label for him?
2 A No, I don't know that name.
3 Q Did you type a label for any
4 Cabinet secretaries?
5 A I don't know if I did or did not.
6 Q Did you type a label for any
7 Judicial appointments?
8 A I don't know if I did or did not.
9 Q So you really couldn't tell whether
10 these were political appointments or the
11 names of Republicans.
12 A That's correct.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q You really couldn't tell whether in
16 fact these were political appointments, they
17 may have just been other people. Correct?
18 A They were just simply names on file
19 folders, yes.
20 Q How did you get the names that you
21 could then type them on the file folders?
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and
352
1 answered.
2 THE WITNESS: I don't recall
3 exactly. Again, I believe that they might
4 have just simply been handwritten by a
5 vetting attorney such as this young woman
6 that asked me to type these labels.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Did you take the names off of
9 envelopes or other file folders?
10 A No, sir. I probably would have
11 taken them just simply off of a sheet of
12 paper.
13 Q Did you take the names off of a
14 list?
15 A Well, I suppose if it had been
16 written on a piece of paper it would indeed
17 simply be a list.
18 Q Did you take the names from any
19 Secret Service documents, Secret Service
20 lists?
21 A No, sir.
22 Q Did you take the names from any FBI
353
1 lists?
2 A No, sir.
3 Q You don't know one way or the
4 other.
5 A No. I only remember that they
6 would be handed to me by the vetting
7 attorney.
8 Q They were handwritten on a piece of
9 paper?
10 A Yes, they were handwritten.
11 Q On a yellow pad?
12 A I don't remember the color of the
13 paper.
14 Q About how many names did you create
15 labels for?
16 A I don't remember. I'm sorry. I
17 don't know if it was five or ten --
18 Q About 1,000?
19 A No, not that many at all.
20 Q How long did you work with
21 Mr. Kennedy?
22 A For about six weeks.
354
1 Q So during that six-week period you
2 only did ten names, about?
3 MR. MILLS: Objection.
4 THE WITNESS: I really couldn't
5 tell you. But it was not a great many at
6 all.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Less than 20?
9 A It might have been. It might have
10 been 30.
11 Q It might have been 40?
12 A It might have been. It's not a
13 significant number, though.
14 Q It might have been 100?
15 A It might have been.
16 Q It might have been 200?
17 A I don't think it was that many.
18 Q Somewhere between 100 and 200?
19 A It probably wasn't that many
20 either.
21 Q No one ever told you where these
22 names came from?
355
1 A No, sir.
2 MR. MILLS: Objection.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Were the names typed onto a label
5 and then put on a file folder?
6 A Yes.
7 Q What kind of a label was it typed
8 on?
9 A I think they were either half-inch
10 or three-quarter-inch wide labels.
11 Q Was there any color strip on them?
12 A No. It was white and they have two
13 little blue tabs on the end. It's a standard
14 Avery label.
15 Q Did you then put the label on a
16 file folder?
17 A Yes.
18 Q What was the color of the file
19 folders you put them on?
20 A I can only remember them being pale
21 color. Whether they were cream or whether
22 they were pale green or gray, but they were
356
1 very pale.
2 Q Were they Manila-colored?
3 A I don't remember if they were
4 Manila-colored or not, only pale.
5 Q Could have been. Could have been
6 Manila?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q What was the size of the folders
9 that you put them on?
10 A I believe that I recall that they
11 were legal size and pressboard.
12 Q Legal size is eight by 11 or eight
13 and a half by 14?
14 A Eight and a half by 14.
15 Q Who did you give the labeled file
16 folders to, Mr. Kennedy?
17 A No, whoever requested that I type
18 the label for the folder.
19 Q During the time that you worked in
20 the OEOB you did observe Mr. Kennedy typing
21 labels himself, didn't you?
22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection.
357
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q From time to time?
3 MR. MILLS: Objection.
4 THE WITNESS: No, I did not.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Never?
7 A No.
8 Q During the time that you worked at
9 the OEOB you were aware that Mr. Kennedy had
10 files in his office. Correct?
11 A No, sir, I wasn't aware of that.
12 Q You never saw any files in his
13 office?
14 A I never looked in his office for
15 files.
16 Q Did you ever go into his office?
17 A I did.
18 Q When you went into his office you
19 sometimes saw files, stacks of them on his
20 tables?
21 A No, sir. I only saw stacks on his
22 table.
358
1 Q Hmm?
2 A I said no, sir. I only saw stacks
3 on his table.
4 Q That's what I just said.
5 MR. MILLS: No. Objection.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q I asked you when you went into his
8 office you saw stacks of files on his tables.
9 A Yes, sir, and I answered that I
10 only saw stacks on his desk. Whether they
11 were files or paper, I have no idea.
12 Q The color of these files was
13 Manila?
14 MR. MAZUR: Objection to the form
15 of the question.
16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection.
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
18 MR. MILLS: Objection.
19 THE WITNESS: Sir, I do not know
20 what was on his desk. I only know that the
21 color, the pale color of the folders that I
22 typed that indeed I placed a label on top of
359
1 them.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q That's what they looked like.
4 MR. MILLS: Objection.
5 THE WITNESS: I do not know if
6 Mr. Kennedy had files on his desk.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Did you see folders on his desk?
9 A I did not look on his desk, sir.
10 Q You made a special point of not
11 paying attention to what was in his office
12 when you walked in.
13 A As I do to everyone's.
14 Q Even the people you work for.
15 A Absolutely.
16 Q So you have been trained not to
17 observe anything in the workplace?
18 MR. MILLS: Objection.
19 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I've never
20 been trained. That's my ethical standard.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q I'm trying to understand why it is
360
1 an ethical standard to not observe what your
2 boss has in his professional capacity on his
3 desk.
4 MR. MILLS: Is there a question
5 pending?
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Yes. What is it about an ethical
8 standard that you were trained requires that?
9 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form
10 of the question.
11 THE WITNESS: Because whatever is
12 on my boss' desk is not my work. It's
13 invasive and intrusive to go through any
14 papers or documents or folders that do not
15 relate to me, that he has not asked me to
16 retrieve from his desk or place on his desk.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Correct me if I'm wrong, but did
19 you testify a few minutes ago that you did
20 see stacks of folders on Kennedy's desk?
21 MR. MILLS: Objection.
22 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
361
1 MS. SHAPIRO: Join in the
2 objection.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q What did you testify to?
5 A I saw stacks on his desk.
6 Q Stacks of what?
7 A I have no idea what they were. I
8 don't know if they were paper; I don't know
9 if they were newspapers; I don't know if they
10 were file folders.
11 Q Is your ethical standard when you
12 work for your boss hear no evil, see no evil,
13 do no evil?
14 MR. MILLS: Objection.
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Is that basically it?
18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form
19 of the question.
20 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Whatever you saw on his desk, it
362
1 was cream-colored?
2 A Sir, I did not look on his desk.
3 Q Whatever you saw in his office.
4 You saw cream-colored materials there?
5 A Sir, it's all peripheral vision.
6 They are stacks. I have no idea what color
7 those stacks are.
8 Q You're not colorblind, are you?
9 A No, I'm not.
10 Q It's part of your ethical standard
11 that you don't observe colors in the
12 workplace?
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
14 MR. MILLS: Objection.
15 THE WITNESS: No, sir, that's not
16 part of my ethical standard.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q When you walked into Kennedy's
19 office you saw things on his floor sometimes?
20 A Chairs.
21 Q Documents?
22 A I didn't look.
363
1 Q Folders?
2 A I didn't look.
3 Q You had a feeling, didn't you, when
4 you worked both in the West Wing and the OEOB
5 that things were going on in those offices
6 that you should simply not know about.
7 Correct?
8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
10 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q You can respond.
13 A Sir, I do not know what was going
14 on in his office. It was not my
15 responsibility to know what matters the
16 attorneys worked on. It was only my
17 responsibility to dictate tapes, to type file
18 labels, to answer the phones.
19 Q Is that your same standard today
20 working for Dow, Lohnes & Albertson?
21 A It is my standard to be directed by
22 my supervisor to do whatever he wants. In
364
1 the sense of answering phones, typing
2 letters, opening mail.
3 Q But to be totally unobservant about
4 what's going on around you?
5 MR. MILLS: Objection.
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
8 THE WITNESS: No, it's not my
9 standard to be unobservant. It is my
10 standard to not be intrusive and read
11 products between a client and his attorney.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Well, I didn't ask you whether you
14 read product between a client and his
15 attorney. I asked you simply whether you
16 observed stacks of folders or files in
17 Mr. Kennedy's office. I didn't ask you
18 whether you read any of them.
19 A I understand.
20 Q Does that help you?
21 A Of course it does, but it's not
22 necessary, sir. As I told you, I did not
365
1 look on his desk to see if they were
2 newspapers, file folders, papers, betting
3 forms, legal pads.
4 Q So with regard to Linda Tripp's
5 testimony that she saw certain file folders
6 in Kennedy's office, you read that, didn't
7 you?
8 A That I did.
9 Q She was able to identify some of
10 those file folders. Correct?
11 A She did.
12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection.
13 MR. MILLS: Objection.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Because you didn't observe what was
16 going on in that office because it wasn't
17 your business in your opinion, you can't
18 refute Linda Tripp, can you?
19 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form
20 of the question.
21 THE WITNESS: I have no idea what
22 Linda saw.
366
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q But you don't take issue with
3 anything she said because you didn't really
4 observe. Correct?
5 A No.
6 MR. MILLS: Objection,
7 argumentative.
8 THE WITNESS: No. I don't have
9 Linda Tripp's eyes.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q You don't know what if anything
12 Mr. Kennedy discussed with Ms. Tripp about
13 anything that was in his office, do you?
14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
15 THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge
16 of their conversation.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Any aspect of it.
19 A That's correct.
20 Q On the computer that you had when
21 it was moved over, was there any new software
22 that was loaded up when you were in the OEOB?
367
1 A I do not remember.
2 Q Did your computer screen show
3 columns sometimes?
4 A No, I don't remember columns as in
5 Excel or any kinds of table such as that.
6 Q There were some things on your
7 computer that had pass codes, that you
8 couldn't get into without pass codes.
9 Correct?
10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
11 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Did you have more than one pass
14 code?
15 A No.
16 Q No?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q What was your pass code?
19 A I don't remember.
20 Q There were entries on the computer
21 that were encrypted. Correct?
22 A That's correct.
368
1 Q What was encrypted?
2 A I don't recall.
3 Q There was information on that
4 computer about an issue concerning tainted
5 blood. Correct?
6 A I don't recall.
7 Q You don't recall one way or the
8 other.
9 A That's correct.
10 Q There was encrypted material on
11 that computer that had been loaded up from
12 files. Correct?
13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
15 THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q One way or the other.
18 A That's correct.
19 Q There was material on that computer
20 that was encrypted that came from FBI summary
21 reports?
22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
369
1 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
2 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Correct?
5 A I have no idea about that.
6 Q One way or the other.
7 A That's correct.
8 Q There was information in that
9 computer that came from FBI raw data?
10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
12 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
13 THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q One way or the other.
16 A That's correct.
17 Q There was information on that
18 computer that came from the Internal Revenue
19 Service. Correct?
20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
22 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
370
1 THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge
2 of that.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q One way or the other.
5 A That's correct.
6 Q Who had access to that computer
7 besides yourself?
8 A While I was at the OEOB?
9 Q Yes.
10 A I don't remember who might have
11 accessed it.
12 Q Who in the ordinary course could
13 have accessed it?
14 A I don't remember.
15 Q But other people could have
16 accessed it.
17 A It's a possibility.
18 Q What leads you to believe it's a
19 possibility?
20 A Turn the system on and perhaps if
21 I'd given someone the password to log on.
22 But I don't remember.
371
1 Q You may have given the password to
2 somebody else?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q Who in the ordinary course would
5 you have been authorized to give the password
6 to?
7 A The other secretary that I worked
8 with in times perhaps when I would be out of
9 the offers.
10 Q Who was that?
11 A Ms. Champagne.
12 Q Anyone else?
13 A No.
14 Q Did you give the pass code to
15 Mr. Kennedy?
16 A No.
17 Q You may have?
18 A I might have.
19 Q Did you ever see Craig Livingstone
20 in that office?
21 A In which office?
22 Q The OEOB.
372
1 A Yes.
2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q When had you first met or come into
5 contact with Craig Livingstone?
6 A I suppose the first couple of weeks
7 I arrived.
8 Q What were the circumstances of your
9 coming into contact with him?
10 A I don't remember. I can only
11 speculate. Perhaps he introduced himself and
12 I introduced myself.
13 Q Did he tell you how he came to be
14 at The White House?
15 A No.
16 Q He told you, did he not, that he
17 had been hired by Hillary Clinton?
18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
19 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
20 THE WITNESS: He did not tell me
21 that.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
373
1 Q He told you that he had been
2 recommended by Hillary Clinton?
3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
4 THE WITNESS: He did not tell me
5 that.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q He told you that his mother knew
8 Hillary Clinton?
9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
10 THE WITNESS: He did not tell me
11 that.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q He told you what his duties and
14 responsibilities were at The White House?
15 A No, he did not convey that to me.
16 Q Did anyone else tell you what
17 Livingstone was doing at The White House?
18 A Not that I remember, no.
19 Q So you really didn't know what he
20 was doing at The White House.
21 A No.
22 Q But you did see him in the OEOB
374
1 from time to time.
2 A I did.
3 Q Do you know what he was doing
4 there?
5 A Buying his lunch.
6 Q He bought you lunch?
7 A No. He was buying his lunch.
8 Q Did you ever see him in the suite
9 of offices that Mr. Kennedy occupied with
10 you?
11 A He infrequently came in.
12 Q Do you know why he came in?
13 A No, I do not.
14 Q When he came in who did he go see?
15 A I can't remember if he saw
16 Mr. Kennedy specifically or not.
17 Q You saw him come into the office
18 with some documents from time to time?
19 A I didn't notice what he was
20 carrying.
21 Q You did notice he was carrying
22 something.
375
1 A I did not notice what he was
2 carrying if he was.
3 Q You saw him in Mr. Kennedy's office
4 from time to time.
5 A No. I saw him come through our
6 ante office.
7 Q But did you see him in
8 Mr. Kennedy's office from time to time?
9 A I do not remember if he visited
10 Mr. Kennedy or not.
11 Q Do you remember if he visited
12 anybody?
13 A I do not remember who he visited.
14 Q Do you have any inkling as to what
15 he was doing up there?
16 A He must have been visiting someone.
17 Q Did you form an opinion that he was
18 loitering?
19 A No.
20 Q Did you ever ask, "What is this guy
21 doing here"?
22 A No.
376
1 Q Did you ever see Mr. Livingstone
2 when you were in the West Wing suite?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Did you see him frequently there?
5 A No, very infrequently.
6 Q Did you know why he was there?
7 A No.
8 Q Did anyone ever tell you why he was
9 there?
10 A No.
11 Q Did you ever see him come into the
12 office with anything?
13 A I didn't notice if he was carrying
14 anything or not.
15 Q To this day do you have any
16 understanding as to what Mr. Livingstone did
17 at The White House?
18 A I only know that his title was
19 something about security operations.
20 Q How did you find out about that?
21 A I probably looked it up in the
22 phone book when I worked there.
377
1 Q So that's all you know to this day
2 about Craig Livingstone and his activities at
3 The White House?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q Do you know whether or not
6 Mr. Livingstone was a defendant or was named
7 as a defendant in this case?
8 A No, I do not.
9 Q Have you ever seen Mr. Livingstone
10 outside of The White House?
11 A No.
12 Q Have you ever read anything about
13 Mr. Livingstone?
14 A No, I haven't.
15 Q Are you aware that he was a former
16 bar bouncer?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
18 THE WITNESS: No.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Are you aware that he was reported
21 once to have threatened to smash in the face
22 of his next-door neighbor?
378
1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
2 THE WITNESS: No.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Are you aware that he was accused
5 of violating the privacy rights of 1,000
6 Republicans?
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
8 MR. MILLS: Objection.
9 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what he
10 was accused of. I only saw his photograph on
11 the front page of The Washington Post one
12 day.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q But you didn't read the story.
15 A Absolutely not.
16 Q Why?
17 A I have no interest.
18 Q Do you know who Marsha Scott is?
19 A I do.
20 Q How did you learn who she is?
21 A I was probably introduced to her.
22 I believe she headed the Correspondence Unit,
379
1 if that's correct.
2 Q Why were you introduced to her?
3 A I think out of courtesy, perhaps.
4 Q What do you mean out of courtesy?
5 A Perhaps -- I don't quite remember
6 who introduced me to her. Perhaps it's a
7 matter when you meet someone at first and
8 you're in their office, you're introduced to
9 someone.
10 Q Has anyone ever said to you that if
11 you're in a legal proceeding and you're
12 giving testimony if you say you don't
13 remember you can never be held accountable
14 for that?
15 MR. MILLS: Objection.
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Join in the
17 objection.
18 THE WITNESS: I don't ever remember
19 discussing that with anyone, sir.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Did you ever hear anybody say that
22 you can't get anybody for perjury if that
380
1 person just doesn't remember?
2 A I don't know that I've ever heard
3 that.
4 Q Is that your understanding?
5 A I have never thought about that.
6 Q Did you ever see Marsha Scott in
7 the presence of Bill Kennedy?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
9 THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q You may have?
12 A I might have.
13 Q You might have seen them talking.
14 A I might have.
15 Q You might have seen them talking in
16 the OEOB?
17 A I might have.
18 Q You might have seen them talking in
19 the suite of offices that you occupied with
20 Mr. Kennedy?
21 A I might have.
22 Q You saw Marsha Scott in those
381
1 offices more than once?
2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
4 THE WITNESS: I don't remember how
5 many times I saw her there.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q But it was more than once.
8 A I have no idea.
9 Q I'll show you what I'll ask the
10 court reporter to mark as the next exhibit.
11 MR. MILLS: Are we on 10?
12 THE WITNESS: No. 10.
13 (Gorham Deposition Exhibit
14 No. 10 was marked for
15 identification.)
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Showing you Exhibit 10, this is a
18 diagram that was drawn by someone by the name
19 of Stephen Waudby, at least that's what he
20 claimed, at his deposition. It's of that
21 suite that you occupied with Kennedy. Can
22 you tell me where you sat?
382
1 A If you would look at the word
2 "Corridor," and I believe that writing is
3 "Pond" there on the left as you enter the
4 door.
5 Q Right.
6 A I first began there at the Waudby
7 desk and then when Mr. Kennedy's detail left
8 in just a few days I assumed that desk.
9 MR. MILLS: Which desk?
10 THE WITNESS: The one that's marked
11 "Pond."
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Where was your computer placed, the
14 one that was moved?
15 A I don't remember if it was on my
16 desk -- well, when it was moved -- I'm sorry.
17 That's incorrect. It was only moved to
18 Cheryl's office. My computer was not moved
19 to Mr. Kennedy's office.
20 Q So when you moved from Cheryl
21 Mills' office to Kennedy's, you left that
22 computer behind?
383
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q You then began to use the computer
3 that was at the Pond desk?
4 A No, at the Waudby desk first and
5 then the Pond desk.
6 Q So there are two different
7 computers that you used after that?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q So when you testified previously
10 that you couldn't remember if there was
11 anything about tainted blood on the computer,
12 that wasn't the computer that you took from
13 the West Wing that you were talking about
14 before?
15 MR. MILLS: Objection.
16 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q That was the computer that was at
19 the Pond desk?
20 A How was it?
21 Q That was the computer that was at
22 the Pond desk?
384
1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q When I asked you the question as to
4 whether or not your computer contained
5 encrypted information about tainted blood
6 what computer was that, what desk was it at?
7 A The one at the West Wing and the
8 one in Cheryl Mills' office.
9 Q When I asked you the questions as
10 to whether the computer contained information
11 about FBI materials or IRS materials, what
12 computer were you referring to?
13 A The computer that I brought from
14 the West Wing.
15 Q Is that the computer that you used
16 to type out documents when you were in the
17 OEOB?
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form
20 of the question.
21 MR. MILLS: Objection.
22 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Could you
385
1 be more clear? Are you speaking of --
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Well, did you ever use that
4 computer that you took over from the West
5 Wing to the OEOB to type any correspondence
6 when you were at the OEOB?
7 A I might have.
8 Q Did you use that computer to type
9 out any labels or anything like that?
10 A No, sir. It did not have that
11 capability.
12 Q What did you type out, what did you
13 use the computers at Waudby's and Pond's
14 desks for?
15 A I don't recall. Perhaps it was
16 simply just short correspondence. But I did
17 very little word processing at those two
18 desks.
19 Q So we're talking during the time
20 that you worked for The White House you used
21 three computers.
22 A Yes.
386
1 Q When you moved over from Cheryl
2 Mills' office to Kennedy's office, you left
3 behind with Cheryl Mills the computer that
4 you took from the West Wing.
5 A That's correct.
6 Q What happened to that computer, do
7 you know?
8 A No, sir, I don't.
9 Q The computers you used at Waudby's
10 desk, what did they look like, were they
11 desktop computers?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Do you know what their power was?
14 A No, I do not.
15 Q Do you know what make they were?
16 A No, I don't recall.
17 Q Were they the same types of
18 computers on Waudby's desk and Pond's desk?
19 A Yes, they were.
20 Q Were they tied into White House
21 databases?
22 A I would assume they were, but I
387
1 have no true knowledge of that. I mean I
2 would assume that they were tied into their
3 network, of course.
4 Q Did you need a password to get into
5 those two computers as well?
6 A I don't remember if a password was
7 required for those.
8 Q It may have been?
9 A It might have been, yes.
10 Q Do you know whether there were
11 encryptions on those two computers, encrypted
12 documents?
13 A No, I don't recall if there were or
14 weren't.
15 Q There may have been, you just don't
16 recall.
17 A That's correct.
18 Q Did anyone either in front of the
19 Senate or in Ken Starr's office ever ask you
20 about the computers that you used at The
21 White House?
22 A I don't remember. I'd have to
388
1 review my testimony again.
2 Q It doesn't strike a bell?
3 A It does not.
4 Q Do you know whether anyone has ever
5 asked you about the whereabouts of those
6 computers after you left?
7 A I can't remember if in those two
8 depositions they asked me about that.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Gilligan, have
10 those computers ever been searched, found and
11 searched?
12 MR. GILLIGAN: I'm not being
13 deposed here.
14 MS. SHAPIRO: Mr. Gilligan is not
15 answering questions here today. I'm
16 defending the deposition and he's not
17 answering questions.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just asking.
19 MR. GILLIGAN: Ask me at another
20 time.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you leave the
22 room just for a second?
389
1 MR. MILLS: We're going to stay on
2 the record, right?
3 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine. We're
4 facing a discovery deadline for the first
5 part of this case. I just want to know as a
6 matter of professional courtesy whether you
7 know as of now whether those computers have
8 ever been found and searched, these three.
9 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, we're
10 here to have a deposition.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: I understand that,
12 but I just want to know right now. Can you
13 tell me right now, yes or no, or if you don't
14 know then go off and check?
15 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, we have
16 responded fully and completely to all your
17 document requests in the past; we're working
18 on responding to myriad new document requests
19 at this time. You have litigated with us the
20 scope of our search in the past and the judge
21 has found our searches to be adequate.
22 We have raised with you or
390
1 attempted to resolve with you time and again
2 the issue of searches of White House
3 computers, and you have never been willing to
4 come to the table and sit down and resolve
5 that matter with us. Instead, you have
6 insisted on Prolix 30(b)(6) examinations and
7 irrelevant document requests.
8 I will be happy to sit down when
9 you're ready to talk about reasonable
10 searches of White House computers to get into
11 that subject, but this is not the appropriate
12 time.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just asking
14 whether you know today whether they've been
15 searched.
16 MR. GILLIGAN: I'm not going to
17 make any representation about that off the
18 top of my head.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: So you don't know?
20 MR. GILLIGAN: You can infer
21 whatever you want from my response.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: You can bring the
391
1 witness back.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Are you aware of anyone using
4 laptop computers in the Old EOB?
5 A No, I was not aware of anyone using
6 those.
7 Q Notebooks?
8 A No.
9 Q Had you ever seen Kennedy use any?
10 A No, sir, I never noticed that.
11 Q You were aware of people that did
12 data entry in that office?
13 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form.
14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
15 THE WITNESS: No, sir. I do not
16 know anything about data entry in that
17 office.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q You don't know one way or the
20 other.
21 A No, I don't.
22 Q Now, you saw Mrs. Clinton in that
392
1 office, didn't you?
2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form of
3 the question.
4 THE WITNESS: I don't remember ever
5 seeing Mrs. Clinton in that office.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q You took calls from Mrs. Clinton
8 from time to time in that office, didn't you?
9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form
10 of the question.
11 MR. MAZUR: Can we know which
12 office this is?
13 MR. KLAYMAN: At the OEOB,
14 Kennedy's office.
15 THE WITNESS: No, sir. I do not
16 recall a time when Mrs. Clinton called there.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q When you took telephone messages,
19 how did you record them?
20 A They were recorded on a standard
21 yellow slip. There's actually a form number
22 for it.
393
1 Q Was there a carbon copy so you'd
2 keep a record of the call after you gave the
3 slip to the recipient?
4 A I don't recall at this time if it
5 was carbonized or not.
6 Q But there was a way you could tell
7 who had called, correct?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
9 THE WITNESS: No, I don't know that
10 there was.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Do you know whether Vince Foster
13 ever visited Mrs. Clinton in her office?
14 A I don't know that he visited her.
15 He did tell me one time that he was going
16 into her office to meet with her.
17 Q Did he tell you why?
18 A No.
19 Q Do you know why they met?
20 A No.
21 Q Did anyone ever tell you?
22 A No.
394
1 Q Mr. Foster sometimes went to The
2 White House residence to see Mrs. Clinton?
3 A I have no knowledge of that.
4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Did Mr. Foster sometimes leave The
7 White House compound with Mrs. Clinton?
8 A I have no idea who he left with.
9 Q Do you know if he had any meetings
10 with her outside of The White House?
11 A I have no idea.
12 Q Mr. Foster sometimes talk about
13 Mrs. Clinton with you?
14 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
15 THE WITNESS: Only at one time.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q What did he say?
18 A He asked that I return the plant
19 that Mrs. Clinton's secretary gave me while
20 they were gone for a week and to ensure that
21 it got back there timely and that it was
22 watered well.
395
1 Q So Mr. Foster was asked to water
2 Mrs. Clinton's plant?
3 A No, he asked me to water the plant.
4 Q For Mrs. Clinton.
5 A He asked me to water the plant and
6 ensure that it was returned to their offices.
7 Q So let me get this straight.
8 Mrs. Clinton sent a plant over so Mr. Foster
9 could have it watered for her?
10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form of
11 the question.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
13 THE WITNESS: No. Her secretary
14 brought it over and asked if we would tend it
15 while both of them were gone; and he was very
16 concerned that it got watered properly and
17 that it was returned immediately.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q While the Clintons were gone?
20 A While Mrs. Clinton and her
21 secretary were gone.
22 MR. MILLS: I want the record to
396
1 reflect that Mr. Klayman is laughing about
2 something, just so it's complete.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: I am. You're right.
4 MR. GILLIGAN: As long as he does
5 it on his own time.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Did you ever have a discussion with
8 Mrs. Pond where Mrs. Pond recommended
9 retaining Administration-friendly lawyers?
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
11 THE WITNESS: No, we never had such
12 a discussion.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Do you know of any such discussion
15 in The White House?
16 A No, I do not.
17 Q You don't remember one way or the
18 other?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
20 THE WITNESS: No, I never discussed
21 any Administration or legal counsel.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
397
1 Q Did you do any filing for Bill
2 Kennedy?
3 A No, I did not do any filing for
4 him, per se.
5 Q What do you mean by "per se"?
6 A As in placing a piece of paper in a
7 folder for him. I placed a folder into a
8 safe for him once but that is all.
9 Q What safe was that?
10 A It was a safe located in his, as
11 designated in the diagram in his office.
12 Q Where on the diagram?
13 A At the bottom it says "Safes."
14 Q This is Exhibit 10?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q In his office.
17 A That's correct.
18 Q It says "Safes."
19 A That's correct.
20 Q Which safe? There's four there.
21 A The one that would be closest to
22 his round table.
398
1 Q The one at the top.
2 A Yes.
3 Q Did you have the combination for
4 that safe?
5 A No, sir.
6 Q How did you get into the safe?
7 A It was open.
8 Q Was it always open?
9 A I have no idea.
10 Q What did he ask you to put in the
11 safe?
12 A He asked me to place a folder into
13 the second drawer of the safe.
14 Q What did that folder look like?
15 A I didn't look.
16 Q You closed your eyes when he gave
17 you the folder?
18 A No, sir.
19 MR. MILLS: Objection.
20 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I didn't
21 close my eyes.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
399
1 Q How big was the folder?
2 A I don't recall.
3 Q Do you have a clue?
4 A No, I have no clue because I didn't
5 look at it.
6 Q You looked to the side.
7 A I suppose you'd say I could,
8 peripherally, yes.
9 Q So you took it and you looked to
10 the side and you put it into the safe?
11 A Or I might have looked to the other
12 side but I didn't look at the folder.
13 Q Was it Manila in color?
14 A I don't recall.
15 Q Do you know what was in the folder?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q Do you know why Mr. Kennedy gave it
18 to you to put in the safe?
19 A Because I was closer to the safe
20 than he was.
21 Q Did you lock the safe behind you?
22 A No, sir.
400
1 Q Did you ever put anything else in
2 the safe?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q Did you ever do any other what you
5 call filing?
6 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of
7 the question.
8 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form.
9 THE WITNESS: Not for Mr. Kennedy,
10 no.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Did you ever see any envelopes when
13 you worked at The White House that were
14 marked or labeled "Bill Kennedy-Janet Reno"?
15 A I did.
16 Q You did.
17 A I saw envelopes, yes.
18 Q When did you see that?
19 A When I worked in the West Wing.
20 Q What were the circumstances of your
21 seeing them?
22 A They were located in the safe that
401
1 we spoke of.
2 Q The safe that was found in
3 Nussbaum's office that Foster used?
4 A Mr. Foster didn't use it. I used
5 it.
6 Q That you used on his behalf?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q When did you see those envelopes?
9 A I don't know what point in time.
10 Q Did you put those envelopes in
11 there?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q Do you know who did?
14 A I do not.
15 Q What color were those envelopes?
16 A They were Goldcraft.
17 Q Manila-type envelopes?
18 A No, sir. They were a gold color.
19 Q Did they have a marking on it
20 Confidential or For Your Eyes Only, anything
21 like that?
22 A Mr. Kennedy's did.
402
1 Q Did you ask anybody what these
2 envelopes were all about?
3 A No.
4 Q Were those envelopes in the safe
5 when Mr. Foster died?
6 A I don't recall if they were in the
7 safe the day he died.
8 Q Do you know whether Mr. Foster was
9 trying to give Janet Reno information about
10 what was going on in The White House?
11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
12 MR. MILLS: Objection.
13 THE WITNESS: I don't know what
14 conversations he had with Ms. Reno nor the
15 contents.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Do you know whether or not those
18 envelopes were left to give to Ms. Reno and
19 Mr. Kennedy in the event of some mishap?
20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
22 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
403
1 THE WITNESS: I do not know the
2 reason why they were in the safe or what
3 their intended reason were to be.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Did Mr. Kennedy ever say to you, "I
6 want to send some information to Ms. Reno in
7 the event that I die"?
8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
10 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
11 THE WITNESS: No, he never said
12 that to me.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Did he ever express to you a fear
15 that someone could try to kill him?
16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
18 MR. MILLS: Objection.
19 THE WITNESS: No.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Did he ever say to you anything to
22 the effect "There are some things that you
404
1 never should know about for your own good"?
2 A That I should not know about that?
3 Q Should not know about for your own
4 good.
5 A I don't recall him ever saying that
6 to me.
7 Q But he might have?
8 A He might have.
9 Q Did he ever look as if he was
10 fearful of anything?
11 A Mr. Kennedy?
12 Q No, Mr. Foster.
13 A No.
14 Q Did he ever look scared to you?
15 MR. MILLS: Objection.
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
17 MR. MILLS: To this whole line of
18 questioning.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q You can respond.
21 A No. He either appeared happy or
22 sad.
405
1 Q Did you observe Mr. Foster to be a
2 very expressive person or was he kind of
3 reserved?
4 A He was very reserved.
5 Q He didn't frequently wear his
6 emotions on his sleeve. Correct?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q So when he looked sad there must
9 have been, based on your experience,
10 something really wrong?
11 MR. MILLS: Objection.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
13 THE WITNESS: To what degree of
14 wrong or to what degree of sadness, I have no
15 idea.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q But that was unusual when you
18 observed him to be sad.
19 A It was.
20 Q You took that to mean that
21 something very serious was happening to him.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
406
1 THE WITNESS: No, I did not draw a
2 conclusion if it was serious or not.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q After he died, you of course drew
5 that conclusion.
6 A No, nor did I then.
7 Q Do you know of anyone who would
8 have wanted him dead?
9 MR. MILLS: Objection.
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form,
11 relevancy.
12 THE WITNESS: No, I never met
13 anyone.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Based on your experience in working
16 with Mr. Foster did you come to learn that he
17 was a very ethical person?
18 A Probably in the most extreme of
19 ways.
20 Q How so?
21 A The example regarding the potted
22 plant from the First Lady's office, it was so
407
1 imperative to him that it be returned
2 immediately, that it was not ours and we
3 should not keep it, it should go back to
4 their offices.
5 Q Any other experiences that you had
6 that caused you to believe that you were
7 working with a very ethical lawyer?
8 A I believe that perhaps some of the
9 snippets of the exhibit that you read would
10 reflect that.
11 Q What exhibit?
12 MR. MILLS: It's Exhibit 4.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q This is the little speech that you
15 wrote for him or that you typed out for him?
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
17 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I didn't
18 hear the question.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q This is the little snippets of a
21 speech that you wrote for him?
22 A These were excerpts from two
408
1 speeches that he wrote. One was for the
2 commencement ceremonies at the University of
3 Arkansas and one was to receive the Lawyer of
4 the Year in Arkansas.
5 Q Was this typed out on your
6 computer?
7 A It was.
8 Q Was it stored in a file in the
9 office?
10 A As in a physical file?
11 Q Yes.
12 A I don't remember if we did or did
13 not.
14 Q But you kept a copy of it for some
15 reason.
16 A I kept a copy of the most important
17 relevant items for myself.
18 Q Because you really liked him.
19 A I did.
20 Q In your experience you had never
21 worked with somebody as ethical as Mr. Foster
22 before.
409
1 MR. MILLS: Objection.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: No reflection on
3 anybody else.
4 MR. MILLS: Objection to the
5 possibility of that question.
6 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q He was an extremely fine man.
9 A He was.
10 Q In this little thing that you typed
11 out and you took with you, you took it with
12 you after he died so you could remember him?
13 A I suppose so.
14 Q Yes. He says, "Service is the rent
15 we pay for living. Service means you get as
16 well as you give. Your life is changed as
17 you change the lives of others. It is the
18 way we find meaning in our lives both
19 individually and collectively.
20 Dents to the reputation are
21 irreparable. Because there will also be
22 failures and criticisms and controversies and
410
1 lies and black clouds in the stormy nights
2 which you will not survive without your
3 family and friends.
4 Don't take your families for
5 granted. Stretch your talents. Reach beyond
6 the closest branch. Set your goals at the
7 farthest end of your reach. Take a risk.
8 Stick your neck out.
9 Challenge the status quo. Speak
10 out. Those who are afraid of failure are
11 condemned to complacency. Sometimes doing
12 the right thing is politically very
13 unpopular.
14 When the heat of controversy swarms
15 around you the inner conviction you did the
16 right thing is the best sleeping medicine.
17 Remember, the wind blows strongest at the top
18 of the mountain." This is the essence of
19 Vince Foster. Correct?
20 A I think so.
21 Q The finest person you've ever
22 worked for.
411
1 A I would definitely rank him up
2 there, definitely.
3 Q Did he write this shortly before he
4 died?
5 A No. The commencement ceremony was
6 somewhere probably in May, perhaps early
7 June, and the Lawyer of the Year was probably
8 around the same time. It was not shortly,
9 no. It was months before.
10 Q So based on what you know about
11 Mr. Foster, one of the most ethical people,
12 if not the most ethical people you've ever
13 met in the legal profession, if he was put
14 between a rock and a hard place and told to
15 do something that was illegal, based on your
16 experience he would have taken that to heart.
17 Correct?
18 MR. MILLS: Objection.
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy,
20 form. Obnoxious.
21 MR. MILLS: This is embarrassing
22 and annoying to the witness.
412
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q You can respond.
3 A It would only be speculation on my
4 part how he would react.
5 Q You can speculate because you had
6 an experience with him.
7 MR. MILLS: Objection.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q How do you think he would have
10 reacted?
11 MR. MILLS: Objection as calling
12 for speculation.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
14 THE WITNESS: How do I think versus
15 how do I hope?
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q How do you think he would react?
18 A I think he would have taken
19 anything to heart that was not, of less
20 character than he was.
21 Q If he was somebody that was asked
22 by Mrs. Clinton or anyone else to do
413
1 something that was illegal, based on your
2 experience, that could have caused him to
3 take his own life. Correct?
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
5 MR. MILLS: Objection.
6 MS. SHAPIRO: To the form,
7 relevancy.
8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
9 MR. MILLS: It's harassing,
10 embarrassing.
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
12 THE WITNESS: I do not know.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q But that's one explanation, isn't
15 it?
16 MR. MILLS: Objection, same
17 objections.
18 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form
19 of the question.
20 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I can't
21 explain or speculate.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
414
1 Q But he's not the kind of guy that
2 ever would have done it. Correct?
3 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form
4 of the question.
5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form
6 of the question.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Based on your experience?
9 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form
10 of the question.
11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form
12 of the question.
13 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I had no
14 crystal ball and still don't, whether it was
15 professional, whether it was personal, for
16 reasons that he took his life.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Do you think that Vince Foster,
19 everything that you know about him, is the
20 kind of person that would have done something
21 that was illegal and been able to live with
22 that?
415
1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection.
2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
3 MR. MILLS: Same objections.
4 THE WITNESS: I don't believe
5 Mr. Foster would have done anything illegal.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Clearly, Mr. Foster believed that
8 dents to the reputation are irreparable.
9 A I think that's the most important
10 line on this piece of paper.
11 Q So irreparable that he would rather
12 not be on this earth?
13 MR. MILLS: Objection.
14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
15 A I cannot answer why he would not
16 want to be on this earth. I can't assume
17 that, whether it was professional or
18 personal.
19 MR. GILLIGAN: Can I have a time
20 check, Mr. Holly?
21 THE WITNESS: 4:50.
22 MR. GILLIGAN: Thank you.
416
1 MR. MAZUR: What does that mean?
2 MR. GILLIGAN: Give me a moment and
3 I'll tell you. 48 more minutes.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Now you are aware, are you not,
6 Ms. Gorham, that the misuse of information
7 from the FBI is illegal?
8 MR. MILLS: Objection.
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
11 MR. MILLS: Relevance.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q You can respond to the question.
14 A I'm not sure what the statute or
15 what the code or public law states.
16 Q You did have an understanding when
17 you worked for The White House that taking
18 information out of an FBI file about somebody
19 and disclosing it to the public is illegal?
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
21 THE WITNESS: That subject was
22 never broached with me, sir.
417
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q But was that your understanding?
3 A I don't know that anyone ever
4 explained that to me.
5 Q Let me go back to the documents you
6 produced this morning. Exhibit No. 5, "Vince
7 Foster One of the best and the brightest."
8 This was an editorial that appeared in the
9 Arkansas Democrat Gazette. You kept this
10 because this was a way to remember Vince as
11 well. Right?
12 A Yes.
13 Q This squares with everything you
14 just told me, that in your eyes he was the
15 best and the brightest?
16 A I would have to reread it but it
17 was perhaps the reason I selected it, it was
18 probably the most well written that I'd read
19 about him.
20 Q Right. Turning to your Government
21 Appointment Book. By the way, these excerpts
22 from his speech that I read to you, have they
418
1 ever been provided to anybody else, the
2 Senate, the Independent Counsel or anybody
3 else?
4 A I can't recall. I provided them to
5 my counsel but I don't remember.
6 Q When did you provide them to your
7 counsel?
8 A I believe, the best I can recall,
9 we received a subpoena for documents to be
10 produced from Independent Counsel, but I
11 don't know if it was July or August of '95.
12 That's a long time ago still.
13 Q Do you know whether these excerpts
14 have ever been discussed in newspaper
15 articles or publicly?
16 A If they've ever been discussed by
17 me or --
18 Q Anybody.
19 A I would assume that they're public
20 knowledge. They were excerpted in newspaper
21 clippings in The White House and read by the
22 Washington Bureau here.
419
1 Q Let's turn to your calendar. I'm
2 looking at the entry for January 26th, 10:30.
3 Did you make that entry?
4 A No, sir.
5 Q Do you know who did?
6 A I do not.
7 Q Do you know whether Mr. Foster had
8 a drug test on that date?
9 A No. I don't.
10 Q Entry at 5:00 p.m. Ethics
11 Orientation OEOB 4:50. Did you make that
12 entry?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q Were you working for Mr. Foster at
15 this time?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q This is somebody else's entry.
18 A That's correct.
19 Q There is an entry on January 27th,
20 Foster - Rubin, Bernie Nussbaum - lunch
21 at 12:00. Do you know anything about those
22 entries, what they're about?
420
1 A No, sir.
2 Q Do you know a Philippe B. Jenney?
3 A No.
4 Q Do you know Brian Atwood?
5 A No.
6 Q Tom Donilon?
7 A No.
8 Q Do you know, there's an entry on
9 January 29th at 3:30 with Zeldin and
10 diGenova. Were you working for Mr. Foster
11 then?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q Do you know what happened then?
14 A No, I don't.
15 Q What was the date you started again
16 with Mr. Foster?
17 A About March 8th.
18 Q Do you know whose handwriting this
19 is?
20 A No, I don't.
21 Q Do you have any inkling?
22 MR. MILLS: I'm sorry, objection to
421
1 form.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Did you ever meet a Mark Grubmeyer?
4 A No.
5 Q Do you know who he is?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q Look at the entry on
8 February 7th, 3:45, McLarty and Mrs. C in
9 Mac's office.
10 MR. MAZUR: February 7th?
11 MR. KLAYMAN: February 5th.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Do you know what that meeting was
14 about?
15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form
16 of the question.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Do you know if there was a meeting
19 on that date?
20 A No, I don't.
21 Q February 9th, Lanny Davis, 8:00
22 a.m. Did you ever meet a Lanny Davis?
422
1 A Not that I recall meeting
2 Mr. Davis, no.
3 Q Do you know whether Mr. Foster ever
4 met with him?
5 A I don't know.
6 Q 10:45, February 16th, Gary Aldrich,
7 do you know whose hand writing that is?
8 A No, sir.
9 Q Below it it says Personnel Room 6
10 OEOB Linda or Laurie. Is that in reference
11 to Linda Tripp?
12 A I have no knowledge.
13 MR. MILLS: Objection, foundation.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Next page, February 18th, 12:00
16 p.m., entry for Guido Calabresi. Do you know
17 who Guido Calabresi is?
18 A No.
19 Q Did you ever meet a Guido
20 Calabresi?
21 A No.
22 Q February 25th, 10:30 a.m., Davis
423
1 and Meisner. Do you know whether a meeting
2 took place with Mr. Foster and Davis and
3 Meisner on that day?
4 MR. MILLS: Objection, no
5 foundation.
6 THE WITNESS: No, sir --
7 MR. MAZUR: I don't see that on
8 there.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: February 25th, 10:30
10 a.m. Davis and Meisner.
11 MR. MAZUR: I think it says Doris
12 Meisner. Maybe it's Davis.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Do you know a Doris Meisner?
15 A No, sir.
16 Q Do you know a Davis and Meisner?
17 A No.
18 Q Do you know a Betsy Cavendish?
19 A No.
20 Q Do you know a Drew Davis?
21 A No.
22 Q Do you know a Richard Robbins?
424
1 A No.
2 Q Have you ever met an Alexis Herman?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Where did you meet her?
5 A She worked in the West Wing.
6 Q Did you ever see her in the
7 presence of Mr. Foster?
8 A I can't remember if I did or did
9 not.
10 Q How did you come in contact with
11 Alexis Herman?
12 A She worked down the hallway from
13 me.
14 Q Was she sometimes in the office?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to
16 relevancy.
17 THE WITNESS: I don't recall if she
18 visited Mr. Foster or not.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Do you know whether the two of them
21 ever had any dealings?
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Same objection.
425
1 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Tell me when your handwriting first
4 appears in March.
5 A On March 8th at 9:15 a.m.
6 Q And 2:00. Now on March 8th you
7 have David Watkins. What does it say there
8 at 10:00?
9 A David Watkins, White House
10 Admin, 2500, computers.
11 Q What is that all about?
12 A That was my first day of
13 employment. Perhaps I was to report to those
14 offices and fill out forms.
15 Q What was the entry about computers
16 about?
17 A I don't recall.
18 Q Did you have a computer assigned to
19 you that day?
20 A I don't remember if there was one
21 that day or not.
22 Q 2:00 p.m., Capricia. Who was
426
1 Capricia?
2 A I would assume it's the first name
3 of Capricia Marshall.
4 Q Who was she at the time?
5 A She was the assistant to the
6 President or the First Lady.
7 Q Why was she marked down for 2:00
8 p.m.?
9 A I don't know if it was for me or
10 for Mr. Foster.
11 Q Do you know what it was about?
12 A No.
13 Q Who is F. Bronson van Wyck, 10:30,
14 March 9th?
15 A I don't remember.
16 Q March 10th, 10:30, is that your
17 entry or is that somebody else's?
18 A No, that's mine.
19 Q What does it say?
20 A "Watkins, Lindsey, Stephanoupulous,
21 Paster re White House tech at Paster's."
22 Q What was that about?
427
1 A I would have no idea.
2 Q Pastor, could it be?
3 A It could be.
4 Q Is that generically a pastor or is
5 that somebody whose name is Pastor?
6 A I think it's the name of Pastor
7 misspelled.
8 Q It's the name of a clergy.
9 A No. It's the name of a White House
10 employee.
11 Q What did he do?
12 A I don't remember an exact title.
13 Q The next day, meeting 2:00 p.m.
14 March 11, Magaziner, Neuwirth. Do you know
15 what that meeting was about?
16 A No, I don't.
17 Q Was it about Hillary Clinton's
18 health care task force?
19 A I would have no idea.
20 Q And 1:15, Justice, is that relating
21 to the Justice Department?
22 A I don't know.
428
1 Q Who is Donald Shultz?
2 MS. SHAPIRO: I'll just interject a
3 standard relevancy objection going item by
4 item through a calendar.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: I know you're not
6 supposed to do that in a deposition.
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Not when there's no
8 relevance to it.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Unless you ask the
10 question you don't know the relevance, do
11 you?
12 MS. SHAPIRO: I think there needs
13 to be a basis for relevance before you ask
14 the question.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Is that obnoxious, is
16 that the basis for your objection?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: It's an objection.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Turn to the page March 15th,
21 Catherine Hughes. Who is that?
22 A I don't know.
429
1 Q 1:15, Richard May. Was that your
2 ex-husband?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q You were supposed to call him?
5 A I don't know why that is there.
6 Q And 2:15, HRC, does that refer to
7 Hillary Clinton?
8 A They're certainly her initials, but
9 I don't know what it refers to.
10 Q Mr. Foster was supposed to meet
11 with her at 2:15?
12 MR. MILLS: Objection, foundation,
13 form of the question.
14 THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q 3:00 o'clock the next day,
17 March 17th, who is Bill Marshal?
18 A I don't know.
19 Q What does it say underneath that?
20 A It appears to say Alan Kreczko.
21 Q Who is he?
22 A I don't remember.
430
1 Q March 19th, 9:00 a.m., Betsy Pond.
2 What was that entry about?
3 A That is the day or the Friday
4 before Monday that Betsy Pond was to enter on
5 duty working in The White House.
6 MR. MAZUR: As to what? I'm sorry.
7 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
8 MR. MAZUR: I didn't hear you.
9 THE WITNESS: That was the day that
10 I was either to wave in Betsy for the
11 following Monday or that might have been her
12 first day of employment.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q The entry at 7:00 p.m. on
15 March 21st Betsy Wright, what does it say, at
16 Wexler's?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Is that a restaurant?
19 A I don't recall.
20 Q Did you have dinner with Betsy
21 Wright that day?
22 A No, it's not for me.
431
1 Q Was that Mr. Foster?
2 A I believe it might have been.
3 Q Do you know why they were having
4 dinner?
5 A No.
6 Q Do know who Betsy Wright is?
7 A No, I don't.
8 Q Have you ever read anything about
9 Betsy Wright gathering information on alleged
10 relationships of the President with women,
11 have you ever heard anything like that?
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
13 MR. MILLS: Objection.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Does that refresh your
16 recollection?
17 A No, sir.
18 Q Betsy Wright visited The White
19 House, did she not?
20 A I don't know.
21 Q Do you know whether Betsy Wright
22 ever had access to FBI files?
432
1 A I would have no idea.
2 Q The next day, Betsy Pond, 8:00
3 a.m., do you know what that reference is
4 about?
5 A I think that's probably Betsy
6 Pond's first day.
7 Q 10:30, what does that say?
8 A Hubbell and McFadden.
9 Q Who is McFadden?
10 A I don't know.
11 Q 9:00 a.m. on March 23rd, what's
12 listed there?
13 A Serum to health unit.
14 Q What is it?
15 A Serum to health unit.
16 Q Serum?
17 A Yes.
18 Q What's that about?
19 A Taking my allergy serum to the
20 health unit so that they could administer
21 injections for me.
22 Q Who is Elizabeth Pugh?
433
1 A The name doesn't ring a bell.
2 Q 5:00 p.m. David Anderson, do you
3 know who he is?
4 A No, I don't.
5 Q He's a lawyer at the Justice
6 Department, right?
7 A I have no idea.
8 Q Jeffrey Gutman, do you know who he
9 is?
10 A No.
11 Q Did you know that David Anderson is
12 a lawyer on this case for the Justice
13 Department?
14 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
15 answered.
16 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Do you know whether Mr. Foster ever
19 discussed anything with Mr. Anderson about
20 what he was doing at The White House?
21 A No, sir, I would have no idea.
22 Q March 26th, 10:15, call JK. What
434
1 does that mean?
2 A JK are the initials of a partner at
3 the law firm.
4 Q What law firm?
5 A Of Dow, Lohnes & Albertson, former
6 partner.
7 Q Why were you calling him?
8 A Perhaps to say hello or have lunch.
9 Q Had anything happened that caused
10 you to seek legal counsel at that time?
11 MR. MILLS: Objection.
12 THE WITNESS: No.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q 1:00 p.m. shot, what does that
15 mean?
16 A To remind me to get an allergy
17 shot.
18 Q March 31st, 9:45 a.m., David
19 Anderson again. Is that your handwriting?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q Do you know why Foster was having a
22 meeting with David Anderson?
435
1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
2 MR. MILLS: Objection to form.
3 THE WITNESS: No, I don't.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Was there a meeting between Foster
6 and Anderson?
7 A I do not know if one occurred.
8 Q Do you know who Gutman was?
9 A No.
10 Q They were meeting on the health
11 care task force matter, weren't they?
12 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
13 answered, form.
14 THE WITNESS: I would have no idea
15 if they were meeting or what the nature of
16 the meeting was if it actually existed.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Who is Ed Hall?
19 A I have no idea.
20 Q What does it say next to Ed Hall?
21 A Pickering File.
22 Q What is the Pickering File?
436
1 A I don't remember.
2 Q Is that an FBI file?
3 A I don't remember. I only remember
4 the name.
5 Q You don't know one way or the
6 other.
7 A No, sir.
8 Q Do you know what happened if
9 anything with regard to that file?
10 A No.
11 Q Go to the next page. At 3:30 it
12 says on April 2nd, Berman, Cardozo. Was
13 there a meeting with those people at that
14 time?
15 A I don't know if a meeting occurred
16 or not. It's on the calendar.
17 Q Do you know if Mr. Foster ever had
18 any dealings with Michael Berman?
19 A No, I don't know if he did.
20 Q Do you know what Michael Berman
21 does?
22 A No.
437
1 Q If I was to tell you that he was
2 head of Opposition Research at the DNC, would
3 that refresh your recollection?
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
5 MR. MILLS: Objection.
6 THE WITNESS: No.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Do you know whether Mr. Foster ever
9 had contact with anyone at the DNC?
10 A No, I do not know who he had
11 contact with.
12 Q Did you ever see anybody from the
13 DNC, meaning Democratic National Committee,
14 at The White House?
15 A I would not know who, if they
16 belonged to the DNC or not.
17 Q Cardozo, does that refer to Michael
18 Cardozo?
19 A I don't remember if it does or not.
20 Q You know of a Michael Cardozo,
21 don't you?
22 A I've only heard the name before.
438
1 Q Are you aware that Mr. Foster was
2 with Mr. Cardozo the weekend before he died?
3 A No, I was not.
4 Q 4:00 p.m., April 5th, what does
5 that say?
6 A Watkins re Travel Here -- or Hire.
7 Q That's your handwriting, right?
8 A No, sir.
9 Q Excuse me?
10 A No, sir.
11 Q That's not your handwriting.
12 A That is correct.
13 Q Do you know who made that entry?
14 A No, I do not.
15 Q Is that Mr. Foster's handwriting?
16 A No.
17 Q Does that refresh your recollection
18 as to whether or not there was a meeting or
19 meetings in Mr. Foster's office concerning
20 the Travel Office?
21 A Not at all.
22 Q Does "here" refer to in
439
1 Mr. Foster's office?
2 A I don't know if that's "here" or
3 "hire" without an "I."
4 Q Could it mean fire?
5 A I have no idea.
6 Q Next day, 2:30, April 8th, Watkins,
7 Gearan Pasteur --
8 MR. MILLS: I'm sorry, what date
9 again?
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q April 8. Watkins, Gearan, Pasteur,
12 Lindsey et al. re Computer Recommen. Is this
13 your handwriting?
14 A No, sir.
15 Q Do you know whose it is?
16 A I do not.
17 Q Do you know what that's about?
18 A I don't.
19 Q Could that refer to setting up a
20 computer to put FBI files on?
21 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of
22 the question.
440
1 THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
2 MR. GILLIGAN: Excuse me,
3 Mr. Klayman. We're missing a page over here.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, it's not my
5 fault.
6 MR. GILLIGAN: I'm not suggesting
7 it's your fault, Mr. Klayman.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Why don't you borrow
9 the page from counsel who made the copies.
10 MR. GILLIGAN: We're just trying to
11 find--
12 MR. KLAYMAN: You always blame me,
13 so I'm defensive.
14 MR. GILLIGAN: Quite the opposite,
15 Mr. Klayman. Does anybody have the relevant
16 page to take a look at?
17 MR. MAZUR: Yes, I have the
18 relevant page.
19 MR. GILLIGAN: Thank you,
20 Mr. Mazur.
21 MR. MILLS: Do you have it there?
22 MR. MAZUR: I gave mine up before
441
1 and I never got it back.
2 MR. GILLIGAN: Do you now have a
3 copy with the right page?
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Off the record. I
5 don't want this to be taken off our time.
6 MR. GILLIGAN: No, we're fine.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Do you want to take a
8 break.
9 MR. GILLIGAN: No, no need for a
10 break. Let's go.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: I know when offered
12 the choice of using time for Judicial Watch
13 or making a copy, I guess you can see how we
14 go.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Next page, April 12, entry 12:00
17 p.m. Barnett, Accountants, do you know what
18 that's about?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q Is that your handwriting?
21 A No, sir.
22 Q It says Tax Return. Does that
442
1 reflect that Foster was working on the
2 Clintons' tax return?
3 A No, sir. I think it only reflects
4 names and addresses.
5 Q Do you know whose handwriting that
6 is?
7 A I do not.
8 Q Let's go over to April 14th, 12:15
9 and 12:30, HRC. Is that your handwriting?
10 A It is.
11 Q There was a meeting with Hillary
12 Clinton on that date?
13 A I don't know.
14 Q Excuse me. Do you remember seeing
15 Hillary Clinton in the office that day?
16 A No, I don't.
17 Q At the top it says Linda Tripp,
18 taxes. What's that about?
19 A I do not recall.
20 Q Is that your handwriting?
21 A It is.
22 Q Why did you put an exclamation
443
1 after taxes?
2 A It was probably so I would turn in
3 my own tax return.
4 Q Then the next day, April 15th, it
5 says Linda, right, is that your handwriting?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Why did you put "Linda" there?
8 A I don't remember.
9 Q Look above. What does it say
10 at 8:00 a.m.?
11 A Safe on right.
12 Q What does that mean?
13 A I don't remember.
14 Q Is that your handwriting?
15 A It is.
16 Q At 6:30 it says Gearan. Is that
17 your handwriting?
18 A It is.
19 Q What was that about?
20 A I do not remember.
21 Q Look at the next page, 5:45,
22 April 19th, McLarty. Did you make that
444
1 entry?
2 A I believe that's my scribble.
3 Q Excuse me?
4 A I believe that's my scribble.
5 Q Was there a meeting with McLarty
6 then?
7 A I do not know.
8 Q And 10:00 a.m. the next day, what
9 does that say?
10 A It says, "All my love forever."
11 Q Did you write that?
12 A I did.
13 Q What's that in reference to?
14 A It's in reference to how I signed a
15 card through a flower order for Mr. Foster to
16 send to his wife on their anniversary.
17 Q Cheryl Mills, 7:45, Buy Cynthia
18 Lunch. Did you put that entry in there?
19 A Yes.
20 Q What's that about?
21 A I don't remember.
22 Q 2:00 p.m., is that your entry?
445
1 A Yes.
2 Q What was that about?
3 A I don't remember.
4 Q 10:00 a.m. the next day,
5 April 21st, Watkins/Berman Office. Did you
6 make that entry?
7 A I did.
8 Q Was there a meeting about the
9 Travel Office on that date?
10 A I don't know.
11 Q Do you know if the meeting took
12 place?
13 A No, I do not.
14 Q 3:00 p.m. the previous day,
15 April 20th, is that your entry?
16 A It is.
17 Q What does that say?
18 A Room 208 NSC Extension 4282.
19 Q It says Jim something.
20 A Oh, I'm sorry. I'm on the wrong
21 day, pardon me. Jim Farrow, NSC,
22 extension 5127.
446
1 Q Look at April 27th, 3:30, what does
2 that say?
3 A Leave Early.
4 Q Is that for you or Mr. Foster?
5 A For myself.
6 Q April 30th, 4:00 p.m., Phil
7 Anderson, did you know a Phil Anderson?
8 There are several entries for Mr. Anderson
9 that day.
10 A I don't recall if he was an
11 attorney from Arkansas.
12 Q Do you know what the meeting was
13 about? Was there a meeting?
14 A I don't recall if there was or not.
15 Q May 10th, 5:00 p.m., Chief of
16 Staff. Was that your entry?
17 A I'm sorry, May 10?
18 Q Yeah.
19 A No.
20 Q Do you know what that's about?
21 A No, sir.
22 Q Next entry, May 13th, 6:00 p.m.,
447
1 did you make that entry?
2 A Yes, that's my handwriting.
3 Q What does that say? Does it say
4 Ambassador Rabinowitz?
5 A Well, it might.
6 Q Do you know Ambassador Rabinowitz?
7 A No. But if that is a "K" on the
8 end.
9 Q I'm sorry. Flip back to May 5th,
10 entry at 11:45. Did you make that entry?
11 A Yes.
12 Q What does that say?
13 A 5019 Klingle, Ambassador Kantor.
14 Q Did a meeting take place with
15 Ambassador Kantor on that day?
16 A I don't know.
17 Q You don't know what that's about?
18 A No, sir, I don't recall.
19 Q 9:30 a.m. on May 8th, did you make
20 that entry?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Was there a meeting in the Oval
448
1 Office that day?
2 A There was not.
3 Q What is that about?
4 A That is a note to bring a friend of
5 mine in to go to the Oval Office for the
6 Saturday address.
7 Q Flip back to May 10th at 5:00 p.m.
8 Is that your entry, is that your handwriting?
9 A No, sir, it's not.
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and
11 answered.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Does it say Watkins and Maggie
14 there?
15 A It says Watkins, but I really can't
16 read the last words. I can't make it out.
17 Q Do you know what it's about?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q May 28th, 2:30, is that your
20 handwriting?
21 A Yes.
22 Q What does that say?
449
1 A It looks like Maggie.
2 Q What happened with Maggie that day?
3 There's also an entry, is there not, at 7:15?
4 MR. MILLS: Objection, compound.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Did you make the entry at 7:15?
7 A Yes.
8 Q What happened with Maggie?
9 A I don't remember.
10 Q There were some meetings scheduled
11 with Maggie Williams that day?
12 A I have no idea.
13 Q Does this refresh your recollection
14 as to how many times you saw her in the
15 office?
16 A No, it doesn't.
17 Q Entry on May 27th at 7:00, what
18 does that say?
19 A 5121 Tilden Street.
20 Q What is that?
21 A An address.
22 Q Do you know whose address?
450
1 A I do not.
2 Q Turn to the next page.
3 June 2nd, 10:00 a.m., what does that say?
4 A Gary, Kathy at Maggie's.
5 Q Do you know what that's about?
6 A No, I don't.
7 Q Is that about referring to Maggie
8 Williams?
9 A Possibly.
10 Q Turn to the next page. Meeting
11 at 10:00 a.m., June 3rd, Todd/Podeska. Do
12 you know what that's about?
13 A No, I don't.
14 Q You've heard of a John Podeska,
15 haven't you?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Is that your handwriting?
18 A It is not.
19 Q Do you know whose it is?
20 A That is Vince's.
21 Q Todd, does that refer to Chris
22 Todd?
451
1 A I would have no idea.
2 Q 12:00, Maggie's Office re Social
3 Office. Is that your handwriting?
4 A It is.
5 Q Do you know what that was about?
6 A No, I don't.
7 Q Next day, Linda, what does that say
8 at the top? June 4th.
9 A Linda & Alan, LR trip file.
10 Q What is that about?
11 A Perhaps that's Little Rock trip
12 file.
13 Q It's what?
14 A Little Rock trip file.
15 Q What is the reference to Linda, is
16 that Linda Tripp?
17 A Linda? No, I have no idea.
18 Q Does that refer to ordering up
19 Linda Tripp's FBI file?
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection,
21 foundation, form.
22 THE WITNESS: No. it would mean
452
1 establishing a trip file for Mr. Foster to go
2 to Little Rock.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Meeting at 2:00 p.m., Maggie, Gary
5 in West Wing. Do you know what that's about?
6 A That's my writing but I don't know
7 what it's about.
8 Q June 8th, 11:00 a.m., is that your
9 handwriting?
10 A No.
11 Q Can you read what it says?
12 A Foster/HRC, maybe HC or NC.
13 Q What does it say under that?
14 A Something, maybe reform. I can't
15 quite --
16 Q Tort Reform?
17 A It might be Tort Reform.
18 Q Do you know whose handwriting that
19 is?
20 A Mr. Foster's.
21 Q Did they have a meeting that day on
22 Tort Reform?
453
1 A I don't know.
2 Q 2:00 p.m., is that your
3 handwriting?
4 A No, it's not.
5 Q Maggie/DW, could that mean David
6 Watkins?
7 A It could.
8 Q Do you know whose handwriting that
9 is?
10 A Mr. Foster's.
11 Q Next day it looks like that
12 meeting, if that's what it was, was switched
13 to 3:30 on June 9th. Correct?
14 A I don't know if it was a meeting,
15 just simply arrows pointing to that day.
16 Q Is that your handwriting on 3:30 on
17 June 9th?
18 A It is.
19 Q Does that refresh your recollection
20 about any meeting with Maggie Williams and
21 David Watkins in Foster's office in and
22 around that time period?
454
1 A No, sir.
2 Q Next page, June 10. Whose
3 handwriting is that that says "Fried
4 Chicken"?
5 A Mine.
6 Q You wanted to get fried chicken
7 that day?
8 A No. I ordered that for Mr. Foster.
9 Q 5:00 p.m., June 16th, is that your
10 handwriting?
11 A Yes.
12 Q What's that about?
13 A I don't know.
14 Q What's VWF?
15 A Mr. Foster's initials.
16 Q Noble, is that Lawrence Noble?
17 A I would have no idea who that was.
18 Q Federal Election Commission?
19 A I don't know.
20 Q Do you know Paul Grimes?
21 A No.
22 Q June 21st, 11:30, is that your
455
1 handwriting?
2 A Paul Grimes, yes.
3 Q No, 11:30.
4 A Oh, excuse me. Yes, it is.
5 Q Does that refer to Maggie Williams?
6 A I don't know who it refers to.
7 Q There was a meeting on that day?
8 A I don't know whether it was a
9 meeting or not.
10 Q Turn to July 1st, 4:00 p.m. Is
11 that your handwriting?
12 A Yes.
13 Q What does that say?
14 A Dallas Bar.
15 Q Do you know what that's in
16 reference to?
17 A He was to make a speech before the
18 Dallas Bar Association.
19 Q And 3:00 p.m. on July 2nd, what
20 does that say? Is that your handwriting?
21 A It is.
22 Q Does that say database?
456
1 A No. "Delta here."
2 Q "Delta here"?
3 A "Delta here."
4 Q What does it say on 11:00 a.m.?
5 A Homa.
6 Q What does that mean?
7 A I saw Homa for an arm wax.
8 Q Who is that?
9 A A woman who waxes my arms.
10 Q Oh, okay. I thought that was her
11 name. 12:00 p.m. July 7, Grilled
12 Cheese/tomato. You got a grilled cheese and
13 tomato sandwich for Mr. Foster?
14 MR. MILLS: Objection to the
15 relevance of that question.
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q You can respond.
19 MS. SHAPIRO: To all of these
20 questions.
21 THE WITNESS: No. I got a grilled
22 cheese/tomato sandwich for myself.
457
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Do you frequently write things like
3 that down because your memory is not that
4 good, you have to remember what you want to
5 eat that day so you write it down?
6 MR. MILLS: Objection.
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
8 THE WITNESS: No, that's not the
9 reason.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Why do you write it down?
12 A It gave me an account of the days
13 that I charged food on my Navy Mess account.
14 Q Do you remember the day that
15 Mr. Foster died?
16 MR. MILLS: Objection. Are we
17 going to go back over that, Mr. Klayman?
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q You can respond.
20 A I do.
21 Q What day was that?
22 A Tuesday, July 20th.
458
1 Q July 16th, entry at 8:15 a.m., what
2 does that mean? Did you write that?
3 A Yes.
4 Q What does that say?
5 A Umbrella at Beauty Salon.
6 Q That was for you.
7 A It was.
8 Q Next day, July 17th, 7:00 a.m.,
9 what is that?
10 A The name of a friend who I invited
11 to the radio address in the Oval Office.
12 Q Entry at 8:15 a.m.
13 A The name of another friend I
14 invited at the same time.
15 Q Entry at 3:15, Tidewater Inn, is
16 that your handwriting?
17 A It is.
18 Q What does that refer to?
19 A That refers to the location where
20 Mr. Foster was that weekend.
21 Q Why did you write down where he was
22 that weekend?
459
1 A He asked me to take the phone
2 number and the room number in case I needed
3 to reach him.
4 Q Did he tell you why you may need to
5 reach him?
6 A I don't remember.
7 Q Was he concerned about going to the
8 Tidewater Inn?
9 A I don't know.
10 Q He went to the Tidewater Inn.
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the
12 form.
13 THE WITNESS: It's the number he
14 gave me. I never reached him though.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Did you try it?
17 A It was not necessary.
18 Q Do you know if he went there?
19 A No, I don't know if he arrived
20 there.
21 Q Do you know whether he took any
22 documents with him when he left?
460
1 A No, I do not recall what he took.
2 Q What does it say, No. 309 Easton,
3 what does that mean?
4 A That's the room number and that's
5 where the Tidewater Inn is located.
6 Q Tuesday, July 20th, what does it
7 say at 7:15 a.m.?
8 A Call KDS briefing.
9 Q Read the whole thing.
10 A Below that? Breakfast. BP, $2
11 danish.
12 Q What's that in reference to?
13 A All of that? Call KDS, which was a
14 law firm partner at Dow, Lohnes, who was to
15 have lunch with Vince that day and to call
16 him and cancel the luncheon. I bought
17 breakfast. I paid $2 and I bought danish.
18 Q Do you know why the two of them
19 were going to meet?
20 A No, I don't recall.
21 Q 12:00 p.m., KDS, who is KDS?
22 A The same as in 7:15.
461
1 Q So it was moved to lunch.
2 A No. This was to call KDS to cancel
3 the lunch that was scheduled for 12:00
4 o'clock.
5 Q And 3:15, yogurt, what does that
6 refer to?
7 A Again, I charged yogurt on my
8 account.
9 Q Now, July 21st we talked about
10 E-mail but what's the entry between 11:00
11 and 12:00?
12 A Work on SF-86.
13 Q Was that for you?
14 A It was.
15 Q At that point you already knew that
16 Vince Foster had died?
17 A Yes.
18 Q So why did you write down on that
19 day work on SF-86?
20 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of
21 the question.
22 THE WITNESS: I figured I probably
462
1 had more time now, now that I had no one to
2 work with.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Did someone tell you that day to
5 work on your SF-86?
6 A Not that I remember, no.
7 Q Did someone say you better get that
8 straightened out because this whole office is
9 now going to come under scrutiny now that
10 Foster died, anything like that?
11 MR. MILLS: Objection.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
13 THE WITNESS: No.
14 MR. GILLIGAN: Time check,
15 Mr. Holly.
16 THE WITNESS: 5:29.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Anyone say, "You better get that
19 security issue straightened out because the
20 issue of your not having a security clearance
21 is going to come up in the investigation of
22 Foster's death"?
463
1 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Anything to that effect?
4 A No, sir.
5 Q What's the entry for photos?
6 A A reminder for me to check photos
7 of photos that were taken of me and Vince.
8 Q Who reminded you do to do that?
9 A Myself.
10 Q Photos that were in his office?
11 A It was a note to myself. No, a
12 note to myself of those events that we were
13 in public gatherings together.
14 Q At 5:00 p.m. what does it say?
15 A Shot.
16 Q Is that an allergy shot?
17 A It is.
18 Q For you.
19 A Yes.
20 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, nine
21 minutes are left.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Mr. Klayman, are you
464
1 willing to give up your last nine minutes so
2 that other people can have some questioning
3 so we don't have to keep this witness over?
4 MR. KLAYMAN: No. I will give you
5 as much time as you want though after I'm
6 finished.
7 MS. SHAPIRO: It's a courtesy to
8 the witness, since the judge specifically in
9 response to a motion for a protective order
10 by them asked that we work out the six
11 hours --
12 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't understand
13 why nine minutes is a big deal to you.
14 MS. SHAPIRO: Nine minutes is left
15 until your six hours is up and I have very
16 few questions.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: The judge has already
18 ruled that we can have six hours. So you can
19 certainly take whatever time you want after
20 that. Please don't interrupt me.
21 THE WITNESS: I need to change tape
22 now.
465
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes.
2 THE WITNESS: Going off video
3 record at 5:30.
4 (Recess)
5 THE WITNESS: We're back on video
6 record at 5:31.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q July 22nd, 4:30, what does that
9 say?
10 A SRB.
11 Q What does that stand for?
12 A The initials of a girlfriend of
13 mine.
14 Q What's her name?
15 A Scarlett Bates.
16 Q Where does she work?
17 A I don't know where she works now.
18 Q Is she still in Washington, D.C.?
19 A I don't know.
20 Q What's her middle name?
21 A I don't recall.
22 Q Is she a legal secretary, too?
466
1 A She was, but I don't know what she
2 does now.
3 Q Does she ever work at The White
4 House?
5 A No.
6 Q She was a good friend, right?
7 A She was a friend,
8 acquaintance/friend, yes.
9 Q Where did she work at any time?
10 A She worked at Wilmer Cutler.
11 Q Do you think she might still be
12 there?
13 A She might.
14 Q Scarlett Bates.
15 A Yes.
16 Q Why did you have her down for that
17 time?
18 A Perhaps I was meeting her after
19 work for dinner.
20 Q You've talked to her about your
21 White House experience, haven't you?
22 MR. MILLS: Objection.
467
1 THE WITNESS: No, I told her that I
2 worked at The White House.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Are you saying at dinner you never
5 discussed anything that you did at The White
6 House?
7 A I never discussed anything about
8 The White House with her other than I worked
9 there.
10 Q If we subpoena her she'll tell us
11 the same thing?
12 MR. MILLS: Objection, calls for
13 speculation.
14 THE WITNESS: Sir, I don't know
15 what she would tell you.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Turn to August 1st page. The
18 reference at 8:30 a.m., Dr. David what?
19 MR. MILLS: I'm sorry, what is the
20 date you are on?
21 MR. KLAYMAN: July 30th.
22 MR. MILLS: July 30th.
468
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes.
2 THE WITNESS: Dr. David Minertz.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Who is he?
5 A He is an eye doctor of my
6 daughter's.
7 Q Next page, 4:00 p.m., August 3rd,
8 Ethics Orientation, 450, is that your
9 handwriting?
10 A It is.
11 Q Did you have an ethics orientation?
12 A I don't recall if I -- I believe
13 that everyone was required to go to one, but
14 I don't remember if I kept that appointment.
15 Q Do you know what it was about?
16 A No.
17 Q What's the entry on the next day,
18 August 4th, 11:30 through 12:15, what's that
19 about?
20 A I have no idea.
21 Q August 19th, File Notary Papers.
22 Is that your handwriting?
469
1 A Yes.
2 Q Were you already a notary at that
3 time?
4 A No, sir.
5 Q You became a notary then.
6 A No, sir.
7 Q After you filed the papers.
8 A After I filed this application,
9 yes.
10 Q Why did you file it?
11 A To become a notary.
12 Q So you could notarize things for
13 Hillary Clinton?
14 MR. MILLS: Objection.
15 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form
16 of that question.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q You can respond.
19 A No.
20 Q But you did notarize some things
21 for Hillary Clinton, didn't you?
22 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
470
1 answered.
2 MR. GAFFNEY: Hasn't that question
3 been asked and answered before?
4 MR. KLAYMAN: You want to
5 cross-examine, I'll give you ten hours if you
6 want; please don't interrupt.
7 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Could you
8 repeat the question?
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Did you ever notarize anything for
11 Hillary Clinton?
12 A No, sir.
13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Does this refresh your recollection
16 as to whether you notarized anything that
17 came out of her office?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q SRB, is that your friend Scarlett
20 again?
21 A It is.
22 Q The next day, SRB, so you had an
471
1 encounter with Scarlett the next day, too?
2 A I don't know. I don't know if we
3 actually met that day or not.
4 Q What is the reference, is this your
5 handwriting "Notary" with an exclamation
6 mark?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Why is there an exclamation mark?
9 A I don't know if I was making a note
10 to myself that that perhaps might have been
11 the last date to file my application.
12 Q August 26th and 28th, SRB. That's
13 Scarlett again, right?
14 A Yes.
15 Q You got together with her on that
16 day, too. Right?
17 A I don't recall if we did.
18 Q Probably?
19 A Possibly not since it's marked
20 through.
21 Q In terms of when you got your
22 notary designation, you would notarize
472
1 anything for anybody that asked you. Right?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Did you charge for that at all?
4 A Only to people who'd come off the
5 street from my law firm.
6 Q But at The White House you did it
7 for free?
8 A I never notarized there. I didn't
9 receive my notary seal until about
10 October 30th.
11 Q September 27th, 1:00 p.m., is that
12 your handwriting?
13 MR. MILLS: Can I have the date
14 again?
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q September 27th, 1:00 p.m.
17 Congressman Rangel.
18 A That appears to be that, yes.
19 Q What is that about?
20 A I don't remember.
21 Q Turn to the entry on November 10th,
22 "Notary" with exclamation mark. Is that your
473
1 handwriting?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Why is there an exclamation mark?
4 A I don't know.
5 Q Turn to the entry on
6 November 18th, 2:00 o'clock where it
7 says 1:30 "Notarize," is that your
8 handwriting?
9 A It is.
10 Q You notarized something on that
11 date, didn't you?
12 A I don't remember.
13 Q You had your notary certificate at
14 that time, didn't you?
15 A I don't remember if they sent it to
16 me at that time.
17 Q Were you still at The White House
18 on November 21st?
19 MR. MILLS: November 21st?
20 November 21st.
21 THE WITNESS: On November 21st was
22 I at The White House?
474
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Yes.
3 A No.
4 Q You were then working for Dow,
5 Lohnes?
6 A No.
7 Q Where were you?
8 A I was on vacation.
9 Q You had already left The White
10 House?
11 A That's correct.
12 MR. GILLIGAN: Time check,
13 Mr. Holly.
14 THE WITNESS: 5:39.
15 MR. GILLIGAN: I have six hours.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: My time is up
17 according to your calculation.
18 MR. GILLIGAN: According to my
19 undisputed calculation, your time is up.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Without regard to
21 whether my time is really up or not, you may
22 cross-examine.
475
1 MS. SHAPIRO: I just have a couple
2 of questions. Let's take a two-minute break
3 and we'll be ready to go.
4 MR. MILLS: The witness will agree
5 to extend the six hours by about ten minutes
6 for the purpose of cross-examination without
7 waiving our right to conclude it at that
8 point.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: We also get a right
10 of redirect.
11 MR. MILLS: No. I'm only extending
12 it by ten minutes. You can work out amongst
13 yourselves if you can how much time they're
14 going to give you for redirect.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, Mr. Mills, I
16 don't believe that you can unilaterally
17 decide to leave a deposition. So if they
18 have ten minutes and we have a reasonable
19 amount of redirect, absent a protective order
20 and reasonableness on the part of everybody
21 here, I would assume that you would stay.
22 MR. MILLS: No. I don't agree with
476
1 that. I think we do have a protective order.
2 Five minutes?
3 THE WITNESS: We're going off video
4 record at 5:40.
5 (Recess)
6 THE WITNESS: We're back on video
7 record at 5:46.
8 MR. MILLS: This is just to
9 reiterate that the witness is agreeing to
10 extend the deposition by ten minutes for the
11 purpose of cross and any redirect that may be
12 permitted and worked out among the parties.
13 Ms. Shapiro?
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Before we start are
15 you going to leave time for us to redirect?
16 MS. SHAPIRO: I will see if I have
17 any time left; just as I asked you to leave
18 me time and you didn't provide me that
19 courtesy.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: The record is clear
21 that we get six hours of testimony here. If
22 you have a problem with that --
477
1 MR. MILLS: You had six hours of
2 testimony.
3 MS. SHAPIRO: That's right, you had
4 six hours of testimony.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: On direct. I suggest
6 you might want to review the court's order on
7 that.
8 MR. MILLS: I have reviewed the
9 court's order, but thank you very much for
10 that advice.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Just let the record
12 reflect that if I don't get an adequate
13 opportunity to redirect we will be moving the
14 court to bring Ms. Gorham back and for any
15 other appropriate remedies for the effort.
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Are we ready?
17 MR. MILLS: I certainly am.
18 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR FBI AND EOP
19 BY MS. SHAPIRO
20 Q Ms. Gorham, Mr. Klayman asked you a
21 series of questions on direct about Linda
22 Tripp's testimony. Do you recall that?
478
1 A Yes.
2 Q Do you recall a meeting that
3 occurred in the West Wing where you worked
4 that included Maggie Williams, Bill Kennedy,
5 Catherine Cornelius, Harry Tomasson, David
6 Watkins and Vince Foster?
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading.
8 THE WITNESS: No, I do not recall a
9 meeting with those individuals.
10 BY MS. SHAPIRO:
11 Q Do you remember Linda Tripp ever
12 asking you about the subject of any meeting
13 and you writing down for her the words
14 "Travel Office"?
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, compound,
16 leading.
17 THE WITNESS: No.
18 BY MS. SHAPIRO:
19 Q During your time at The White
20 House, either in the West Wing or the Old
21 Executive Office Building, did you have
22 contact with any FBI files or FBI information
479
1 that you knew of?
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, lacks
3 foundation, leading.
4 THE WITNESS: No, I did not.
5 BY MS. SHAPIRO:
6 Q You testified that there were some
7 stacks in Mr. Kennedy's office. Is that
8 right?
9 A I did.
10 Q You testified that you didn't know
11 what those stacks were. Correct?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q Do you know how high those stacks
14 were, approximately?
15 A No, I don't recall how high
16 specifically they were.
17 Q Do you recall if there were stacks
18 of things on the floor?
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading.
20 THE WITNESS: No, I do not remember
21 that there were any stacks on the floor,
22 simply only furniture.
480
1 BY MS. SHAPIRO:
2 Q Do you have any recollection of it
3 being difficult to navigate your way around
4 the floor in Mr. Kennedy's office?
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, lacks
6 foundation, assumes facts not testified to,
7 leading.
8 THE WITNESS: No. There was no
9 difficulty to walk around his office.
10 BY MS. SHAPIRO:
11 Q Do you have any memory of the
12 stacks being higher than or less than one
13 foot?
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading,
15 assumes facts not in evidence.
16 THE WITNESS: I don't recall that
17 the stacks were extraordinarily high, but
18 whether they were one foot or a foot and a
19 half or less than that, I really could not
20 specifically say. I really didn't take a
21 measure of that in any sense.
22 BY MS. SHAPIRO:
481
1 Q Did your work for either Ms. Mills
2 or Mr. Kennedy ever involve inputting
3 information from files into a database?
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, lacks
5 foundation, leading.
6 THE WITNESS: No, it did not.
7 BY MS. SHAPIRO:
8 Q Have you ever told anybody that
9 your work involved inputting information from
10 files into a database?
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading,
12 lacks foundation.
13 THE WITNESS: No, I did not.
14 BY MS. SHAPIRO:
15 Q Had you ever described your job
16 anywhere in The White House to Linda Tripp as
17 primarily inputting data from files into a
18 computer?
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, lacks
20 foundation, leading, vague and ambiguous.
21 THE WITNESS: I never described
22 that to Linda, no.
482
1 MS. SHAPIRO: Those are all the
2 questions I have.
3 MR. MILLS: Mr. Klayman, you can
4 redirect, use all the rest of the time.
5 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR
6 PLAINTIFFS
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q When you say you don't recall a
9 meeting between David Watkins, Catherine
10 Cornelius, Harry Tomasson and others, you
11 don't remember one way or the other, do you?
12 A No, sir. I would have no knowledge
13 of the reason that those folks were there,
14 indeed, if it was for a meeting or a meeting
15 occurred.
16 Q You're not saying there wasn't a
17 meeting, you just don't remember right now.
18 A No, sir I'm not saying that. I'm
19 telling you I would have no knowledge if a
20 meeting were to take place and if it were
21 what the meeting was about.
22 Q But Ms. Shapiro asked you whether
483
1 you knew of any such meeting.
2 A I understand.
3 Q That's different than the response
4 you just gave me. Correct?
5 A I understand.
6 Q So you weren't really responding to
7 her question, you were just responding to
8 your own view of what you knew?
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
10 MR. MILLS: Objection.
11 THE WITNESS: I can simply clarify
12 that and state again that when people
13 appeared in our office if they were going to
14 a meeting or indeed held a meeting, I had no
15 knowledge that a meeting was to take place or
16 that a meeting did take place. I only
17 acknowledged the fact that indeed that they
18 were in the office.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q So if you saw people in the suite
21 and they went into somebody's office you
22 didn't assume that was a meeting.
484
1 A Absolutely not.
2 Q But it may have been a meeting, you
3 just didn't assume anything.
4 A I don't assume anything.
5 Q I believe you testified when I
6 asked you the questions that you didn't
7 really have any recollection as to whether
8 you ever wrote anything down about a Travel
9 Office.
10 A No, sir. I never wrote anything
11 down about a Travel Office.
12 Q You don't remember doing it?
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection,
14 mischaracterizes.
15 MR. MILLS: Objection.
16 THE WITNESS: The question was with
17 regard to a meeting regarding the Travel
18 Office. Again, I would not know if a meeting
19 were taking place or if it did or the nature
20 of the meeting. So consequently, I would not
21 write down a message about what a meeting was
22 about.
485
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q So all of that is hypothetical.
3 You don't know for sure whether you did or
4 you didn't, you just think you wouldn't have
5 done it?
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
7 MR. MAZUR: Objection to form.
8 MR. MILLS: Objection.
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Mischaracterizes.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Correct?
12 A That would not be my practice, sir.
13 Q It doesn't mean it never happened,
14 though. Right?
15 A Sir, again, it was not my business
16 to know whether a meeting were to occur or a
17 meeting did occur and, consequently, there
18 would be no reason for me to write down on a
19 note what the nature of a meeting was about
20 because one follows the other, indeed.
21 Q But you don't have any memory with
22 regard to a specific event, only what your
486
1 practice was. Correct?
2 A Sir, again, that is my practice. I
3 would not have written down a note that said
4 "Travel Office" in regard to a meeting
5 because I would not know what that meeting
6 was about, if indeed a meeting took place.
7 Q So it's all based upon your
8 practice, not upon your actual knowledge.
9 A That is correct.
10 Q When you had lunch today, was
11 Ms. Shapiro present?
12 A She was present in the same
13 restaurant, yes.
14 Q Was she sitting at the same table?
15 A No.
16 Q Did she come over and talk to you?
17 A No.
18 Q Did you talk to Ms. Shapiro at all
19 today outside of the presence of this
20 conference room?
21 A I did.
22 Q When was that?
487
1 A I'm sorry, no. It was in this
2 conference room. It was in this conference
3 room.
4 Q Was I present at the time?
5 A I don't recall if you were or not.
6 Q What did you say to Ms. Shapiro?
7 A I said, "Yes, I would like a
8 cookie."
9 Q A what?
10 A "Yes, I would like a cookie."
11 Q Oh, a cookie. Did you say anything
12 else?
13 A No.
14 Q Is she representing you here today?
15 A Sir, I believe that she's
16 representing me as a former employee, in that
17 capacity at The White House Counsel's office.
18 Q Did you ask for her representation?
19 A No, I did not.
20 Q You've never seen an FBI file that
21 you know of, have you?
22 A No, I have not.
488
1 Q You wouldn't know one if you saw
2 one.
3 A That's correct.
4 Q So you may have actually seen files
5 that were FBI files, but you just don't know
6 that you saw them. Correct?
7 A I do not ever recall seeing any
8 information, any documentation that had the
9 word "FBI" or that even inferred or referred
10 to that.
11 Q Can you categorically say that of
12 all the files you saw while working in The
13 White House that there were no documents in
14 those files from the FBI?
15 A That's correct. I can say that.
16 MR. MILLS: Your time is up.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q You looked into every file?
19 MR. MILLS: In fact, the time is
20 up.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not finished.
22 MR. MILLS: Time check.
489
1 THE WITNESS: 5:55.
2 MR. GILLIGAN: One minute.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not finished.
4 MR. MILLS: Well, there's only one
5 more minute to the deposition, so.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want to
7 quibble with you. If I have to, I'll quibble
8 with you before the court.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Did you look into every file that
11 you ever came in contact with at The White
12 House?
13 A No.
14 Q So you don't know whether there was
15 FBI material in there or not.
16 A That is correct.
17 Q You don't really know what an FBI
18 file looks like. Correct?
19 A That is correct.
20 Q You wouldn't know an FBI file from
21 any other file, would you?
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and
490
1 answered.
2 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
3 answered.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Correct?
6 A Sir, there are different categories
7 of files, and I review different files
8 everyday and as I did then. But I do not
9 remember any information regarding FBI or an
10 FBI file.
11 Q It is possible that you have a file
12 from the FBI but it doesn't say "FBI" on the
13 cover. Correct?
14 A It could be possible.
15 MR. MILLS: I think that's the
16 time. Time check, please.
17 THE WITNESS: 5:56.
18 MR. MILLS: That's it.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you walking out?
20 MR. MILLS: Thank you very much.
21 The deposition is over by court order.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Let the record
491
1 reflect our position is it is not, and we
2 will be moving for appropriate relief?
3 MR. MILLS: You said you had a few
4 more questions and you asked several.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: I have several more.
6 If you leave you will do so at your own
7 peril.
8 MS. SHAPIRO: My position is the
9 judge asked us to apportion six hours in the
10 spirit of civility and in deference to the
11 witness and he asked that we work it out, and
12 I asked you for time and you refused it.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: So you're walking
14 out, too?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm not walking out.
16 The deposition is concluded. You've used
17 your six hours.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: I take it you're
19 walking out, it's our position.
20 MR. GILLIGAN: Would you like us to
21 stay and chat, Mr. Klayman?
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Get that on the
492
1 record.
2 THE WITNESS: We're going off the
3 record now?
4 MR. MILLS: We're off the record.
5 THE WITNESS: We're going off video
6 record.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I'm not off the
8 record. By the way, there was certain
9 information I asked for in camera. If you'd
10 like to produce it in camera, Mr. Mills, you
11 may do so in writing.
12 MR. MILLS: I'll contact you.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: In writing in camera
14 the answers to those questions.
15 MR. MILLS: I'll contact you about
16 that.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: So you're not
18 agreeing to do that?
19 MR. MILLS: There was still going
20 to be some discussion about that. I'll
21 consult with my client and I'll get back to
22 you about that.
493
1 MR. KLAYMAN: That's another reason
2 why I object to this being terminated at this
3 time.
4 MR. MILLS: You should have covered
5 it during your six hours. The court
6 specifically ordered six hours.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll go on the basis
8 of what the court said.
9 MR. MILLS: Thank you.
10 THE WITNESS: We're off record.
11 MR. MILLS: We're off the record.
12 THE WITNESS: We're going off video
13 record at 5:58.
14 MR. MILLS: Thank you.
15 (Whereupon, at 5:58 p.m., the
16 deposition of DEBORAH GORHAM was
17 adjourned.)
18 * * * * *
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