Well said NoLimit. whatever weapons we probuce(even though with joint colloboration and some indigenous),they say we are good at paint job.well they dont know the fact that they are second to none in paint job.Whatever weapon system (mostly missiles) they produce there will be chinese mark in it atleast to some extent and they boast everything is made indigineously.Chinese are spoon-feeding them. While they could produce missiles indiginously, why couldnot they launch their satillites with their own sounding rockets.They have no access to rocket technology.But one day they will certainly get that from china and say INDIGENOUS.Once Musharaff was saying thaT pak is years ahead of india in space program.Does he really know what space program is???It's absolutely ridiculuos.Regards,Trident

Listen up triwhateva,

You accuse us of making copies of Tomahawks, getting 'spoon fed' by China! Okay ... well lets just take your obnoxious argument as valid for just this once. In context to your moronic, kiddish, response .... Lets compare the fact that Pakistan's economic output couldn't support indigenous missile products such as cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, fighter aircrafts, tanks and etc.

So we face the facts and deal with the reality! And the reality is that living in a neighborhood with a bloated. over grown 'Duh Duh' india, whose tries to bully others with its lopsided numerical advantage, is somewhat a threat that Pakistan would not take sittin down. Our response is to achieve a balance without incurring such absurd amounts of national exchequers towards R&D from scratch. So what do we do? We make all possible gains by obtaining technology from all credible sources and redress that balance so that your pathetic country is put in its place if it has any bright ideas of bully someone like us, in the future. In this respect, Pakistan redirects all its resources towards gaining off-the-shelf technology that can be immediately utilized ...... and then use our capital in investing on how we can rectify or further improve on that technology. Projects such as the M-11 Silkworm, T-85 Battletanks, MFI-117 Turboprops, Mirage Rebuild Factory, H-2/4 Missiles derivatives, Interoperability of avionics and weapons b/w Chinese and French fighters! These are but a few of the projects undertaken by Pakistani Engineers, Scientists and Weapons Specialists.

On the other hand, lets take a look at india! A country which is supposedly dubbed as the largest democracy in the world ..... yeah right!!!

It is understood that india's economy can support massive amounts of money flooded into R&D! And allegedly india has poured 'some' amount in the Defence R&D sector. But despite that india continues to buy weapons in absurd numbers from other countries. 190 Su-30 Mki Flankers from Russia! Okay, now admittedly they are getting TOT with you guys 'assembling' majority of the fighters, in country! However the way india has managed its local defence industry, makes it the laughing stock of the world!! I mean would believe it when i tell everyone that when india ordered new Jaguars to be built by HAL (india took tot for the Jaguars), to replace the aircrafts lost to crashes. That these newly built aircrafts were flat out refused to be flown by indian pilots! Shows what state of affairs the local defence industry is in!

On part of missile technology, although you guys won't admit that the inflated condom (brahmos), isn't the Russian version, Yakhont! We will play along with your little childish stupidity and ask you this, that if the Takhont .... sorry brahmos is so indigenous, that why is the indian missile productions still waiting for source codes??? Ha ha ... bet you didn't know that we knew that haan!!!!

But putting aside all these kiddish arguments, fact of the matter is that Pakistan wasn't expected to develop Nuclear Weapons, but we gave you and the world the shock of your lives in 1998. Shoulda seen the look on the faces of the ministers in the indian parliment!!!!!

Also nobody expected Pakistan to develop a missile system that would rival the best in the world! But yet we gave everyone a surprise that our Ghauris and Shaheens are accurate even though people accused us of having inferior North Korean missiles or Chinese Missiles.

Fact of the matter is is that we did all this despite being sanctioned, despite the fact that every western country refused to help us, despite the fact that our economy wouldn't support such programmes being achieved indigenously! Despite all of that we have managed to (with Allah's blessings) withstand all that pressure and financial constraints and western boycott and still manage to ressurect our economy.

But you know, as opposed to that, the indians who were expected to do whole lot more 'indigenously' ..... came up with tejas lca (looney cartoon aircraft), arjun (bloated) main none-combatant-tank!!!! And when their so called indigenous programs failed, what does this so called 'largest democracy', 'big economy', supposedly aspiring to be a 'superpower', do!??? It goes ahead and releases a tender for buying 200 fighter aircrafts from mostly western countries! So we ask you indians, what happen to your 'indigenous' looneytoon tejas????

Yes we are making JF-17 Thunders, where China is playing the main role, infact the sole role in the aircraft. But doesn't belittle us, because our engineers, aeronautic experts and pilots are right there in China to learn as we move along with the fighter development.

The difference b/w you and us is that we live in reality, with realistic goals and realistic claims to our defence capability. While you pathetic morons wet dream and boast of defence capabilities which were given to you as you were begging for it!!!

In the end ..... if it makes you indians (living in fantasyland) happy, then sure you guys got a very capable and indigenous missile system! Happy now??? Okay then in that case, since you guys are happy, i suggest you pipsqueaks take your blabbering and go back to your to pathetic existance and stop acting like pests and coming to our forum and begging for attention!!! _|_

........ when the first drop of a Munafiq's blood drops in the Kaa'bah ........

........ the Black Flags Army shall rise from Khurasan and commence its earth rumbling march toward Damishque. Any force that tries to come in its path, shall be destroyed with ruthless destruction. Awaiting, upon reaching Damishque, the safron and beads of pearls and the Black Turban that shall lead the Salah of Fajr .........

........ the stones and trees of Lud shall cry out to the Black Flags and tell them of the Munafiqs, Yahuds and Kuffar that are hiding behind them, to come and kill them. That day shall be the day of reckoning, the day of justice, the day when no power shall hold and unfair advantage. The battle shall be fought and won by way of faith ........

Detonator, You will find that Pakistan doesn't boast when it comes to its weapons. It will unveil them when the time and conditions are right. Now in terms of Pakistani missiles and foreign assistance...who knows whether they got help and moreso who cares? The fact of the matter is that Pakistan has ballistic and cruise missile capability, whether or not they were made using foreign assistance doesn't make them any less lethal. In terms of barter trade with North Korea, if they did, again...so what? who cares? The point is we have them and thats that.

But like i said, Pakistan picks the right time to make a public test. In this case Indians never saw it coming, signing the agreement to notify each other about ballistic missile test however excluding cruise missiles thinking Pakistan never had the capability. And you think Pakistan inducted Babar after one test? If you think that then your really not worth my or anybodys time here. You weren't there ...you never even knew it existed before it was tested remember, you (and me) didn't know because we weren't meant to ...we found out when the time was right. That test was the announcement to the world that Pakistan can produce their own cruise missiles.

There are many others in this forum who can answer to my queries with out being offensive.

[B]Thats what you gutter-dwellers fantisize about! But then again who could blame ya for acting like the roaches you are, coming to our forum like beggers begging for attention!

QUOTE

So you Dick. mind your own business.

One ..... anything to do with Pakistan, Pakistanis and Pakistani Defence Forum IS my business.

Two ... I'd like to see you say that infront of me so that i have the satisfaction of beating the crap outta another one of your pathetic, gutter-rats!

Three .... incase you forgot, you pathetic gutter-indians are on borrowed time on this forum. So don't push your luck, you lowlife faggot! And go rant in your gutter-indian forums all you want. Cuz i don't tolerate your gutter kind, so before i pull your shameless indianness down, get lost pathetic rat!

........ when the first drop of a Munafiq's blood drops in the Kaa'bah ........

........ the Black Flags Army shall rise from Khurasan and commence its earth rumbling march toward Damishque. Any force that tries to come in its path, shall be destroyed with ruthless destruction. Awaiting, upon reaching Damishque, the safron and beads of pearls and the Black Turban that shall lead the Salah of Fajr .........

........ the stones and trees of Lud shall cry out to the Black Flags and tell them of the Munafiqs, Yahuds and Kuffar that are hiding behind them, to come and kill them. That day shall be the day of reckoning, the day of justice, the day when no power shall hold and unfair advantage. The battle shall be fought and won by way of faith ........

The very fact that there exist a in joint R&D and development effort between India and Russia, for Bhramos is evident from its restricted range of 300 kms. This is in line to MTCR regime. So the engine came from Russian and guidance from India, please do remember that its the guidance unit which controls the engine and other control surface of the missile and Indian had put in their software expertise.

Now in case of Babur, it was non existance until it was tested and same applies to all other Pakistan missile programs. If the purpose was to hide it from the enemy then why put up a press report and a fancy tv clip.

So this must be something you can think about. Also the span of development and deployment of all these missiles is around 15 years. No nation can afford to invest money simultaneously to develop 6+ missile projects at one go, with exception to countries who have these arsenals already with them and want to improve, extend range etc etc...

Also Mr A.Q.Khan was using airforce transport plane to ferry parts to korea, libya and Iran, now don't tell me he even had access to controlling PN naval assets. The fact that he was front face for Pakistani goverment needs is evident.

If you say they were not obtained for barter trade with North Korea (nuclear technology) and China in name of containing India, Pakistan must have invested considerable money for R & D all these 15 years to develop these technologies in house.

One simple fact that I would like you to investigate is compare Chinese export and import data with respective countries and it comes out that they dont match. IF this is true then it mean the communist rulers are publishing rigged figure to keep their cart moving. Finally everything boils down to figure, whether you like it or not.

Hence I would state that India tried to develop, doesn't matter they succeded or failed and sought assitance from other countries to improve them. In case of Pakistan there doesn't exist any genuine attempt to conduct R&D and develop any of their missiles nor they were having access, but all of sudden a missile pops up one day tested once and inducted into army, navy and airforce.

If a single test is sufficient for a missile under development then you even don't have idea what is MTBF for component that goes into it and you want to prepare for a war with these missile and you call them deadly accurate. Where does this confidence come from?

Can I presume that it was already tested and proved and hence need not waste money by testing them again and again. Where and which place is something you need to answer?

"Being patriotic is good, but ignorant doesn't make sense." Also it doesnt mean that having all weapons will give you victory. A classic example "US forces in Iraq". Men and Machines combined together make a difference not either one of them.

Detonator.

Man that post was a total waste of words and bandwidth! Why? Well I never said that the Missiles we have is genuinely on pure R&D. The fact that we have not the sufficient resources to fund such expensive and time consuming weapons R&D. That we have attained technology from other countries, researched the technology, improved or redesigned it to our needs and better performances. This is the realitic approach of a country with limited resources, who faced against all odds, still has managed to retain credible deterrence.

As opposed to your country, which not only has the resources, but also an age old infrastructure that was given to you on a platter by those idiot Brits. You guys invested in R&D, but the competence level of your scientists is so pathetic, that its laughable. I mean to take 20 years and still can't get a pile'a'junk aircraft to fly or to put into production for your airforce, is more than embarressing!

Lastly, if you have any brains whatso ever, then you'd know better than to say that figures matter! Cuz as we all know that figures are deviously used to keep the enemy uncertain. Realistically speaking, do you really think that the range of AMRAAMs is what they say it is!? Or that whether or not China and North Korean figures have any relevance to what we have in Pakistan. Seriously man, if you indians really take those figures for what they are, than you lot are dumber than than i thought you'd be!

Oh and instead of covering up for the wasted money and time on r&d you guys have done so stupidly, i'd suggest that you make better of what you have and stop acting like morons and spending an absurd amount of money on foriegn aircraft when what you should be doing is what China has done. China's development into its own fighter aircraft industry has lead to the development of fighters like the J-10s, JF-17s, JH-7s, J-8s & K-8s.

If you want to progess in this region, then learn to be a bit more dynamic than over compensating!

........ when the first drop of a Munafiq's blood drops in the Kaa'bah ........

........ the Black Flags Army shall rise from Khurasan and commence its earth rumbling march toward Damishque. Any force that tries to come in its path, shall be destroyed with ruthless destruction. Awaiting, upon reaching Damishque, the safron and beads of pearls and the Black Turban that shall lead the Salah of Fajr .........

........ the stones and trees of Lud shall cry out to the Black Flags and tell them of the Munafiqs, Yahuds and Kuffar that are hiding behind them, to come and kill them. That day shall be the day of reckoning, the day of justice, the day when no power shall hold and unfair advantage. The battle shall be fought and won by way of faith ........

WASHINGTON, June 6 — Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal is vastly superior to that of rival India, with up to five times the nuclear warheads, say U.S. military and intelligence officials now reassessing the South Asian balance of power. Interviews with senior U.S. officials in the past week revealed the view that Pakistan not only has more warheads than its longtime adversary, but has far more capability to actually use them.

Nuclear Weapons Tests by India and Pakistan in May 1998 caught American intelligence off guard. While U.S. agencies long had known about weapons-development research in both countries, the decision by both to go public with their capabilities shocked policymakers. Since then, U.S. intelligence and diplomacy has focused on South Asia with a new intensity. Until recently, for instance, Pakistan was considered to have somewhere between 10 and 15 nuclear weapons and India between 25 and 100. But after two years of intelligence gathering, officials now believe those figures overstate the capabilities of India’s home-grown arsenal and understate those of Pakistan, whose program has relied on generous Chinese assistance.

One official said the Pakistanis “are more likely to have those numbers [25 to 100 weapons] than the Indians.” Perhaps most important, the official said, is that Pakistan appears far more capable than India of delivering nuclear payloads. “I don’t think their [the Indian] program is as advanced as the Paks,” the official said, speaking particularly of ballistic missiles. Marine Corps Gen. Anthony Zinni, commander of the U.S. Central Command, said longtime assumptions that India had an edge in the South Asian strategic balance of power were questionable, at best. “Don’t assume that the Pakistani nuclear capability is inferior to the Indians,” said Zinni, the senior U.S. officer responsible for the Middle East and South Asia.

Other military and intelligence officials, as well as an intelligence analysis of South Asia’s nuclear balance obtained by NBC News, shed more light on the revised view. NBC News is the broadcast partner of the MSNBC.com joint venture. “They both have a capability,” said one senior military official. “Pakistan’s may be better than India’s, with more weapons and more capability. “You can’t underestimate the Pakistani program,” said the official. Like most of the officials NBC News contacted, this one would speak only on condition of anonymity. These officials believe India understands that it is behind. A recent Defense Department analysis of the Indian program obtained by MSNBC states that India is moving to address its shortcomings. Quoting India’s recently publicized draft nuclear doctrine, the Defense Department report said that “India announced its plans to develop a minimum nuclear deterrent force comprised of a triad of nuclear delivery systems - air, mobile land-based launches and sea-based platforms. The air component of its triad is the only one that may be in place already.”

The U.S. report also states that “India probably has a handful of nuclear bombs,” meaning about five. With regard to delivery systems - the missiles and bombers needed to launch a nuclear strike - U.S. officials now believe Indian capabilities to be seriously lagging. According to the Defense Department document, which is unclassified, India has no nuclear-capable missiles and fewer aircraft capable of delivering a nuclear payload than Pakistan does. India has twice tested a new intermediate-ranged missile, the Agni, which may eventually provide the basis of a nuclear missile force. However, current U.S. analysis suggests the Agni will not be fielded with nuclear warheads for another 10 years.

Additionally, India appears to only have begun work on missile warhead design and on the miniaturization of weapons - two critical hurdles to the actual use of weapons. The U.S. assessment of Pakistan, on the other hand, has been greatly upgraded. A U.S. official stated that Pakistani air and missile delivery systems are now believed to be “fully capable of a nuclear exchange if something happens.” Other officials noted that Pakistan’s air force, with its U.S. F-16’s and its French Mirage fighter-bombers, are superior at penetrating enemy airspace than India’s Soviet-designed MiGs and Sukhois. Most importantly, Pakistan is now thought to possess about 30 nuclear-capable missiles: the Chinese M-11 short-range missile and its Pakistani variant, the Tarmuk, as well as the North Korean Nodong intermediate-range missile (known locally as the Ghauri).

The mystery that shrouds both of these growing nuclear arsenals has become a major cause for concern among U.S. policymakers, who even before the 1998 tests had deemed South Asia the most likely site of a nuclear war. According to one analysis done by the U.S. Air Force, more than 150 million Indians and Pakistanis could perish in an all-out nuclear exchange - three times the total number of people who died in World War II. One frequently cited fear among U.S. intelligence officials is an accidental nuclear war in which Pakistan mistakes the firing of an Indian missile bearing a conventional warhead as a nuclear strike. Despite what appears to be a healthy fear of the other on both sides, the United States still fears there could be a series of crises that lead to something worse.

Pakistani incursion in the Kargil area of Kashmir, the disputed Muslim territory controlled by India, is a good example of the region’s unpredictability. “There is usually a gentleman’s agreement to keep conflict around the Line of Control,” he said, referring to the U.N. cease-fire line set after the two nations’ 1947 war over the region. “It escalated with mobilizations on different fronts - tit for tat. Both sides are now very concerned about how escalation works and how it could happen very quickly.” Zinni said the United States intervened in the “nick of time” with Kargil. The United States doesn’t exert much influence on the daily level of fighting, but a senior military official does believe that Washington has some sway in terms of escalation because neither side really wants an all-out war, despite some hard-liners on both side who publicly claim they want to bring the issue to a head.

NBC News’ Tammy Kupperman is based at the Pentagon. Robert Windrem is an NBC News investigative producer based in New York.

........ when the first drop of a Munafiq's blood drops in the Kaa'bah ........

........ the Black Flags Army shall rise from Khurasan and commence its earth rumbling march toward Damishque. Any force that tries to come in its path, shall be destroyed with ruthless destruction. Awaiting, upon reaching Damishque, the safron and beads of pearls and the Black Turban that shall lead the Salah of Fajr .........

........ the stones and trees of Lud shall cry out to the Black Flags and tell them of the Munafiqs, Yahuds and Kuffar that are hiding behind them, to come and kill them. That day shall be the day of reckoning, the day of justice, the day when no power shall hold and unfair advantage. The battle shall be fought and won by way of faith ........

what a waste of time, effort and money -- all these discussions about missile fissile thingie, stuff that will never be used before they become obsolete and needs to be upgraded again at the cost of more time, effort and money.

I personally dont see why I should feel good if one or the other has better something or the other that will never be used.

"There is none worthy of worship but He, glorified be He: [Far is He] above that which they associate [with Him]" (Qur'an 9:31)

Not equal are the owners of the fire and the owners of the Garden. The owners of the Garden, they are the victorious. [Quran 59:20]

Allah knows best [who are] your enemies. Allah is sufficient as a Friend, and Allah is sufficient as a Helper. [4:45]

Fudayl ibn Iyaad said: "Verily, if an action was done sincerely for the sake of Allah but was not correct, it will not be accepted by Allah. And if the action was correct but not done sincerely it will not be accepted until the act is sincere and correct. For it to be sincere, it has to be done for the sake of Allah, and in order for it to be correct, it has to agree to the sunnah."

the Messenger of Allah pbuh says; “whoever does not care about the affairs of the Muslims is not one of them.”

Among these six states only four - India, Pakistan, North Korea and Iran supposedly havenational programs aimed at developing intermediate range ballistic missiles (with rangeexceeding 3,000km) within the coming 10 years.

1.) Refrain from using excessive profanity in any post.2.) Refrain from using abusive behavior against other members.3.) No personal attacks.4.) Do not Spam your posts.5.) No Raciest Remarks.6.) Staying within the Forum category.7.) No post should include Religious hatred/ topics, PDF is a defence forum8.) Using more than one name. (Traced by IP address)9.) Posting in wrong froum will either be deleted or moved to correct one10.) Hatred again Pakistan and its allies including USA is not welcomed

Among these six states only four - India, Pakistan, North Korea and Iran supposedly havenational programs aimed at developing intermediate range ballistic missiles (with rangeexceeding 3,000km) within the coming 10 years.

Penguin, the very topic of the thread is comparing Pakistan with South Asian countries. That would exclude

Iran,Israel,Saudi Arabia,North Korea.

Then the topic mentions missile technology as opposed to just BMs. Now if the topic is wrong or right we sure can argue about here, but you ll be pretty muc left between India and Pakistan to decide which one is better.

"....What the Ulama have forgotten is their role in creating a good human being. I don't even mean a good Muslim. Whether Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu- what matters is the creation of a good person above all else: Someone who obeys the law, has a respect for the fundamental rights and needs of others, has a sense of social obligation and duty. When such individuals are around, creating an Islamic society that is just and equal is easy..........."

Syed Haider Farooq Maudoodi the son of Syed Maulana Maudoodi, founder of the Jamaat-e Islami

Penguin, the very topic of the thread is comparing Pakistan with South Asian countries. That would exclude

Iran,Israel,Saudi Arabia,North Korea.

Then the topic mentions missile technology as opposed to just BMs. Now if the topic is wrong or right we sure can argue about here, but you ll be pretty muc left between India and Pakistan to decide which one is better.

No kidding? South Asia consists of the following territories: Bangladesh, Bhutan, India, Maldives, Nepal, Pakistan, Sri Lanka. However, the United Nations subregion of Southern Asia includes the above plus Afghanistan and Iran. The term is also sometimes used to describe the whole of Asia south of the former Soviet Union.

Anyway, what kind of comparison/achievement, considering there's only one serious competitor in the region?

RULES AND REGULATIONS:

1.) Refrain from using excessive profanity in any post.2.) Refrain from using abusive behavior against other members.3.) No personal attacks.4.) Do not Spam your posts.5.) No Raciest Remarks.6.) Staying within the Forum category.7.) No post should include Religious hatred/ topics, PDF is a defence forum8.) Using more than one name. (Traced by IP address)9.) Posting in wrong froum will either be deleted or moved to correct one10.) Hatred again Pakistan and its allies including USA is not welcomed

Why the hell do the bhindians complain about missiles? The fact is, whether the missiles are copied or not, Pakistan has these missiles and can reproduce them and the bhindians make themselves feel better by saying that the missiles are copied. Tell you rats, when you're on the battlefield, you're not going to destroy the missiles by saying that they're copied. Besides, isn't BrahMouse a copy of a Russian missile, maybe Yakont?

Anyway, what kind of comparison/achievement, considering there's only one serious competitor in the region?

A bad comparison .Was just pointing out to your long list without taking any sides.

"....What the Ulama have forgotten is their role in creating a good human being. I don't even mean a good Muslim. Whether Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu- what matters is the creation of a good person above all else: Someone who obeys the law, has a respect for the fundamental rights and needs of others, has a sense of social obligation and duty. When such individuals are around, creating an Islamic society that is just and equal is easy..........."

Syed Haider Farooq Maudoodi the son of Syed Maulana Maudoodi, founder of the Jamaat-e Islami

Interests:The reckoning of the infidel is at hand;<br />His fortresses of sin will shield him no longer;<br />As we have bled, so shall he bleed;<br />As we have screamed, so shall he scream;<br />As we have mourned, so shall he mourn;<br />But his suffering wil exceed ours mega fold;<br />For we have the almighty to protect us;<br />And they have no one.<br />

Posted 08 June 2006 - 01:24 AM

QUOTE(NoLimit @ Feb 12 2006, 12:20 AM)

If I looked at India's progress in the civilian space program, India is far far ahead of Pakistan. India lanches satellites commercially, and is sending a mission to the moon in 2008.. What about Pakistan? No, I not taunting Pakistanis.. But if you want to compete with us, have good healthy competition.. let's do it in an area that can benefit our populations

Does India send any man to space already?! Russian lost the race to the moon beause of their space launch vehicals.Now is already half way thru the year 2006...is there any possibilities for India develop a heavy load launcher in the next one and half years?

The reckoning of the infidel is at hand;His fortresses of sin will shield him no longer;As we have bled, so shall he bleed;As we have screamed, so shall he scream;As we have mourned, so shall he mourn;But his suffering wil exceed ours mega fold;For we have the almighty to protect us;And they have no one.

Pakistan nukes outstrip India’s, officials say as U.S. reverses assessment of South Asia nuclear balanceWASHINGTON, June 6 — Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal is vastly superior to that of rival India, with up to five times the nuclear warheads, say U.S. military and intelligence officials now reassessing the South Asian balance of power. Interviews with senior U.S. officials in the past week revealed the view that Pakistan not only has more warheads than its longtime adversary, but has far more capability to actually use them.

Nuclear Weapons Tests by India and Pakistan in May 1998 caught American intelligence off guard. While U.S. agencies long had known about weapons-development research in both countries, the decision by both to go public with their capabilities shocked policymakers. Since then, U.S. intelligence and diplomacy has focused on South Asia with a new intensity. Until recently, for instance, Pakistan was considered to have somewhere between 10 and 15 nuclear weapons and India between 25 and 100. But after two years of intelligence gathering, officials now believe those figures overstate the capabilities of India’s home-grown arsenal and understate those of Pakistan, whose program has relied on generous Chinese assistance.

One official said the Pakistanis “are more likely to have those numbers [25 to 100 weapons] than the Indians.” Perhaps most important, the official said, is that Pakistan appears far more capable than India of delivering nuclear payloads. “I don’t think their [the Indian] program is as advanced as the Paks,” the official said, speaking particularly of ballistic missiles. Marine Corps Gen. Anthony Zinni, commander of the U.S. Central Command, said longtime assumptions that India had an edge in the South Asian strategic balance of power were questionable, at best. “Don’t assume that the Pakistani nuclear capability is inferior to the Indians,” said Zinni, the senior U.S. officer responsible for the Middle East and South Asia.

Other military and intelligence officials, as well as an intelligence analysis of South Asia’s nuclear balance obtained by NBC News, shed more light on the revised view. NBC News is the broadcast partner of the MSNBC.com joint venture. “They both have a capability,” said one senior military official. “Pakistan’s may be better than India’s, with more weapons and more capability. “You can’t underestimate the Pakistani program,” said the official. Like most of the officials NBC News contacted, this one would speak only on condition of anonymity. These officials believe India understands that it is behind. A recent Defense Department analysis of the Indian program obtained by MSNBC states that India is moving to address its shortcomings. Quoting India’s recently publicized draft nuclear doctrine, the Defense Department report said that “India announced its plans to develop a minimum nuclear deterrent force comprised of a triad of nuclear delivery systems - air, mobile land-based launches and sea-based platforms. The air component of its triad is the only one that may be in place already.”

The U.S. report also states that “India probably has a handful of nuclear bombs,” meaning about five. With regard to delivery systems - the missiles and bombers needed to launch a nuclear strike - U.S. officials now believe Indian capabilities to be seriously lagging. According to the Defense Department document, which is unclassified, India has no nuclear-capable missiles and fewer aircraft capable of delivering a nuclear payload than Pakistan does. India has twice tested a new intermediate-ranged missile, the Agni, which may eventually provide the basis of a nuclear missile force. However, current U.S. analysis suggests the Agni will not be fielded with nuclear warheads for another 10 years.

Additionally, India appears to only have begun work on missile warhead design and on the miniaturization of weapons - two critical hurdles to the actual use of weapons. The U.S. assessment of Pakistan, on the other hand, has been greatly upgraded. A U.S. official stated that Pakistani air and missile delivery systems are now believed to be “fully capable of a nuclear exchange if something happens.” Other officials noted that Pakistan’s air force, with its U.S. F-16’s and its French Mirage fighter-bombers, are superior at penetrating enemy airspace than India’s Soviet-designed MiGs and Sukhois. Most importantly, Pakistan is now thought to possess about 30 nuclear-capable missiles: the Chinese M-11 short-range missile and its Pakistani variant, the Tarmuk, as well as the North Korean Nodong intermediate-range missile (known locally as the Ghauri).

The mystery that shrouds both of these growing nuclear arsenals has become a major cause for concern among U.S. policymakers, who even before the 1998 tests had deemed South Asia the most likely site of a nuclear war. According to one analysis done by the U.S. Air Force, more than 150 million Indians and Pakistanis could perish in an all-out nuclear exchange - three times the total number of people who died in World War II. One frequently cited fear among U.S. intelligence officials is an accidental nuclear war in which Pakistan mistakes the firing of an Indian missile bearing a conventional warhead as a nuclear strike. Despite what appears to be a healthy fear of the other on both sides, the United States still fears there could be a series of crises that lead to something worse.

Pakistani incursion in the Kargil area of Kashmir, the disputed Muslim territory controlled by India, is a good example of the region’s unpredictability. “There is usually a gentleman’s agreement to keep conflict around the Line of Control,” he said, referring to the U.N. cease-fire line set after the two nations’ 1947 war over the region. “It escalated with mobilizations on different fronts - tit for tat. Both sides are now very concerned about how escalation works and how it could happen very quickly.” Zinni said the United States intervened in the “nick of time” with Kargil. The United States doesn’t exert much influence on the daily level of fighting, but a senior military official does believe that Washington has some sway in terms of escalation because neither side really wants an all-out war, despite some hard-liners on both side who publicly claim they want to bring the issue to a head.

NBC News’ Tammy Kupperman is based at the Pentagon. Robert Windrem is an NBC News investigative producer based in New York.

this whole site sucks, you pakis are overtly obessed by your so-called military powress, every time it's "oh!that war, we were not ready, you indains were better that time", when has Pakistan out manuvered india?ok...tell me one thing...when has it been that india is not in a better position than Pakistan in war, and the most amazing thing is that since Pakistan generally starts off with war, then even though Pakistan has the initiative, even then you'll lose out when it comes to dieing, as they say 'Never send a boy to do a man's job'

And, ok...tell me one thing...in 1999, you'll were a nuclear power, then why could Pakistan not win kargil?

and that after Pakistani army had occupied the hieghts, and they were very firmly trenched on those hieghts?Pakistani army lost almost equal number of soldiers, when the ratio of defenders to aggressors should be 1:5....i guess PA just got ##### in the ass...hahahaha....take that you pakis....

[P.S:Not all pakis are bad, all my pakis friends are good...so this is for the ones who are suckers...]

Stop flaming and stick to the topic. You just seem; like one of the same retarded Indians, who keep on coming to this forum and throw garbage out of thier mouth, without knowing the real reality nor doing the full re-search on the topic. You seem to be lacking knowledge; so i advise you to go and do your re-search on these topics and wars and the crap which you have said above; then go to the search engine of this forum, on the home page and search the topics. You will find many topics which have allready been discussed time and time again, so even after reading thoes post in thoes threads you feel like you still have a valuable question and some thing valuabe to say then please do say it, other wise keep your filthy mouth shut, and stop throwing garbage on this forum.

*¤**¤**¤**¤**¤**¤**¤**¤**¤**¤**¤**¤**¤**¤**¤**¤**¤**¤**¤**¤*Cry you like women over a kingdom (Pakistan) lost which you could not defend like men.

AGREED OK ALL OF U SHUT UP DONT U KNOW WHO HAS WRITTEN THIS MR ASHRAFS ANALYSIS R ALWAYS COMPREHENSIVE N MIND BLOWING. ALL THE CLAIMS ABOUT Pakistan MISSILE TECHNOLOGY BEING SUPERIOR TO INDIA MADE BY INTERNATIONAL MEDIA IN BBC AND CNN R BOGUS N DUM. HOW DARE THEY WHAT THESE CNN , BBC GUYS THINK THEY R INDIANS R THE BEST WE R THE NO 1. OUR ANALYSIS LIKE MR ASHRAFS ONE IS BASED ON FACTS. ALL THE STRATEGIC INSTITUTIONS WORLD WIDE R JUST PIECES OF ####. NOW MR ASHRAF WE SHOULD ALSO FIX SOME MORE TARGETS THAT HAVE BEEN LEFT

FIRST WE HAVE TO CROSS CHINA IN POPULATION

WE HAVE SUCCEEDED SUCCESSFULLY AS BEING HOME TO THE 3/4 OF WORLD POORESThat WE R RAGING AHEAD N DEFINITELY CROSS AFRICA CONCERNING AIDS

HOW DARE THEY WE R NUMBER ONE N UR ANALYSIS MR ASHRAF ITS ROKIN EVERY ONE ELSE THE INTERNATIONAL MEDIA SHOULD GO TO HELL N DO THEIR HOMEWORK :hitwall: :hitwall:

What a Reply

But I would agree with Usman here both are engaged in useless exaggeration. I would say India may certainly have better infrastructure and may be ahead of us in this field, but when it comes to system reliability and production for deployment Pakistan is far more efficient. It has to do with the political obstacles in India rather than lack of knowhow. Anyways for India it wont be an achievement they have AIDS to worry about now.

Seriously we Pakistanis should be careful now as our neighbour is highly contagious. We should stop having Indians come in Pakistan without proper medical examination.

Anyways if Pakistan wants to beat India in this field we will need more Universities and funds for research. The recent step with China is in the right direction. Another thing we need to do is collaborate with EU and Gulf countries more and secure more runding for research.

this whole site sucks, you pakis are overtly obessed by your so-called military powress, every time it's "oh!that war, we were not ready, you indains were better that time", when has Pakistan out manuvered india?ok...tell me one thing...when has it been that india is not in a better position than Pakistan in war, and the most amazing thing is that since Pakistan generally starts off with war, then even though Pakistan has the initiative, even then you'll lose out when it comes to dieing, as they say 'Never send a boy to do a man's job'

And, ok...tell me one thing...in 1999, you'll were a nuclear power, then why could Pakistan not win kargil?

and that after Pakistani army had occupied the hieghts, and they were very firmly trenched on those hieghts?Pakistani army lost almost equal number of soldiers, when the ratio of defenders to aggressors should be 1:5....i guess PA just got ##### in the ass...hahahaha....take that you pakis....

[P.S:Not all pakis are bad, all my pakis friends are good...so this is for the ones who are suckers...]

Dude we will keep on trying until u moronic Hindus and Bhangees stop massacring Muslims in Kashmir and Gujrat. We will always be ready to shove a G3 where the sun doesnt shine for u. We have been ruling you for 1000s of years now. Its not that we had just a couple of gud days We will rule ur ass again. As far as the stand off is concerned when we want we go in and screw n scare the hell out of ur pathetic army. When u want u can only bullshit and put forces on the border, just to kill thousand of ur troops in the process. Now you tell me who the sucker is.

We have mastered the art of surprising the #### out of u. Its not in our interest to defeat and control AIDS infected poorest nation on the face of this earth. Secondly we have more capable adversaries to wry about like Israel. So you can go get high on cowdung and enjoy ur pathetic useless rants. Or u can join Desai and drink some freshcow or preferably ur own pisss to chill off.

I am a Chinese, my English is very poor, if there's any grammatical mistakes, please do not laughed at. As a Chinese , I'm so glad to hear that Pakistan's missile technology is much more advance to all countries in South Asia .but in fact, I dare not believe it. there's many forums are discussing India's defence capabilities, and we rarely think of leading India, on the contrary, we are a prudent attitude, we believe that India's LAC is also quite advance, as his nuclear bombs can reach Beijing, which worries us enough.

I am a Chinese, my English is very poor, if there's any grammatical mistakes, please do not laughed at. As a Chinese , I'm so glad to hear that Pakistan's missile technology is much more advance to all countries in South Asia .but in fact, I dare not believe it. there's many forums are discussing India's defence capabilities, and we rarely think of leading India, on the contrary, we are a prudent attitude, we believe that India's LAC is also quite advance, as his nuclear bombs can reach Beijing, which worries us enough.

Well you are right that we should not underestimate the indian capabilities. However, I think that Pakistani and chinese missile technologies are ahead of India. India also has the policy of no-first-use of nuclear weapons. So basically india will only use them if attacked with nuclear weapons.

I do not believe that the indian LAC is very advanced. It is medium tech at most.

You must be careful with indian propoganda. They tell alot of lies. And they live in their own world , believing that they are a super power , which they of course are NOT . Anyway there is no need to percieve India as any big threat. Especielly if China and Pakistan work togather in all fields and help eachother , always.

"Everyone, except those who are ignorant, knows that the Quran is the general code of the Muslims. A religious, social, civil, commercial, military, judicial, criminal, penal code, it regulates everything from the ceremonies of religion to those of daily life; from the salvation of the soul to the health of the body; from the rights of all to those of each individual; from morality to crime, from punishment here to that in the life to come, and our Prophet has enjoined on us that every Musalman should possess a copy of the Quran and be his own priest. Therefore Islam is not merely confined to the spiritual tenets and doctrines or rituals and ceremonies. It is a complete code regulating the whole Muslim society, every department of life, collective[ly] and individually."

- Jinnah , Eid message in September 1945.

He called upon the mammoth Lahore audience to build up "Pakistan as a bulwark of Islam", to "live up to your traditions and add to it another chapter of glory", adding, "If we take our inspiration and guidance from the Holy Quran, the final victory, I once again say, will be ours"

this whole site sucks, you pakis are overtly obessed by your so-called military powress, every time it's "oh!that war, we were not ready, you indains were better that time", when has Pakistan out manuvered india?ok...tell me one thing...when has it been that india is not in a better position than Pakistan in war, and the most amazing thing is that since Pakistan generally starts off with war, then even though Pakistan has the initiative, even then you'll lose out when it comes to dieing, as they say 'Never send a boy to do a man's job'

And, ok...tell me one thing...in 1999, you'll were a nuclear power, then why could Pakistan not win kargil?

and that after Pakistani army had occupied the hieghts, and they were very firmly trenched on those hieghts?Pakistani army lost almost equal number of soldiers, when the ratio of defenders to aggressors should be 1:5....i guess PA just got ##### in the ass...hahahaha....take that you pakis....

[P.S:Not all pakis are bad, all my pakis friends are good...so this is for the ones who are suckers...]

Oh you mean in kargil when a couple of badly trained guerilla's and few pak army personal made your whole nation #### it its pants? When only 6 85mm howitsers wreaked havoc on the Indian army and destroyed countless supply routes and roads, when over 70% of the IAF bombs that where droped missed

Pakistan is a nation thats 6 times smaller than India yet where able to make your rat fighting army go begging to the UN to stop the wars

I believe Pakistan does have the most advanced missile capabilites in Asia but we still have along way to go.

Our current plans should be to

-Make a ICBM (keep it a secret though)- Make a 1500 km cruise missile- Master MRV capabilities- Make more accurate missiles- Make better engines for newer generation missiles- Invest heavily in missile tech so that when the west masters new tech we wont be far behind

Im the worst nightmare for islamist, traditionalist, neo-liberals, communist, and best of all bhangee-ist

-Make a ICBM (keep it a secret though)- Make a 1500 km cruise missile- Master MRV capabilities- Make more accurate missiles- Make better engines for newer generation missiles- Invest heavily in missile tech so that when the west masters new tech we wont be far behind

All those plans are good except the first one. Right now the US isn't the biggest threat to Pakistan-yet. An ICBM can be made in collaboration with a space program. However, SUPARCO really needs to get it's act together. India right now is launching satellites left and right while Pakistan is not even close.

this whole site sucks, you pakis are overtly obessed by your so-called military powress, every time it's "oh!that war, we were not ready, you indains were better that time", when has Pakistan out manuvered india?ok...tell me one thing...when has it been that india is not in a better position than Pakistan in war, and the most amazing thing is that since Pakistan generally starts off with war, then even though Pakistan has the initiative, even then you'll lose out when it comes to dieing, as they say 'Never send a boy to do a man's job'

And, ok...tell me one thing...in 1999, you'll were a nuclear power, then why could Pakistan not win kargil?

and that after Pakistani army had occupied the hieghts, and they were very firmly trenched on those hieghts?Pakistani army lost almost equal number of soldiers, when the ratio of defenders to aggressors should be 1:5....i guess PA just got ##### in the ass...hahahaha....take that you pakis....

[P.S:Not all pakis are bad, all my pakis friends are good...so this is for the ones who are suckers...]

ndian army you hindu do`t the truth who won the kargil. you thanks BC for your vicktry not your brave and modren indian army i think all the hindus are bad.........hehehehehehehe you have no Pakistani muslim friend i tnink because Musliman are not alloud to have a Kafir dost, you se............. hehehehehehe We trust Allah. Pakistan Zinda Bad. Allah O AKBAR

-Make a ICBM (keep it a secret though)- Make a 1500 km cruise missile- Master MRV capabilities- Make more accurate missiles- Make better engines for newer generation missiles- Invest heavily in missile tech so that when the west masters new tech we wont be far behind

add to that........

-make the starship enterprise for the airforce which can fly in space at the speed of light and has time-travel capabilities.-get a Pakistani on th 10th planet in the solar system within the next 5 years.-get the super-zapper lightweight rifles for the pukestani army which have laser beam technology to zap out any enemy even beyond visual range.-make the worlds largest man-made island built exclusively for the navy and preferably close to saudi arabia.-get the latest power generating plants which can produce 10000000000000000 MW of power to bolster pukestans already-amazingly growing economy.-make a force shield which repels missiles and other harmful objects from entering pukestans airspace and deploy it in the next 5-10 years.

try to get real sometimes guys.

its good to be patriotic and say things that are over the top sometimes. but dont make it a habit.

what a waste of time, effort and money -- all these discussions about missile fissile thingie, stuff that will never be used before they become obsolete and needs to be upgraded again at the cost of more time, effort and money.

I personally dont see why I should feel good if one or the other has better something or the other that will never be used.

...and I reiterate my position -- though understanding fully well that in a forum called "...defence...com", it will not be appreciated.

I am arguing whether my cousin has bigger moustache than my nephew and how establishing who has a bigger moustache will change the course of world history

Well, I wouldn't been too concerned about who has better missiles or nuclear warheads..

The fact is that both India and Pakistan have the ability to destroy itself. If anyone decides to use the nuclear option, it means mutual destruction of two countries with alot of potential..

Whether Pakistan can destroy India better or India can destroy Pakistan better is irrelevant because we know either way, both countries would be up in smoke..

If India and Pakistan are to compete in the new world stage, it's going to be the in economic and technological progress in the civilian sector...

If I looked at India's progress in the civilian space program, India is far far ahead of Pakistan. India lanches satellites commercially, and is sending a mission to the moon in 2008.. What about Pakistan? No, I not taunting Pakistanis.. But if you want to compete with us, have good healthy competition.. let's do it in an area that can benefit our populations

how is sending a mission to moon help indian popultion, starting welfare programs, putting all to work can benefit the population not spending 10 billion on a showoff visit to moon does.

It seems like some of the moderators here have very small IQ
they should always check my post, should never allow me to post unchecked or i will wreck havoc on this forum

How come you have a non existent space launch vehicle? The basics behind a ballistic missile and a launch vehicle are usually the same. All the so called expertise might have been better served in launching satellites.

truth indeed... But the fact that Qadeer is just a mettalurgic engineer and knows zero about atomic bombs is just extra. The guys knows how to make uranium more pure by using electrical centrifuges... That is all...

the same uranium enrichment iranian establishment has been working on the last 10 years and needs another five to have bomb grade uranium.....what more you need of him? once you have enriched uranium...you can put together a nuke bomb using physics text books.........the main hurdle is getting the enriched uranium.

As far as you saying he knows how to make uranium using centrifuges....no country gives you those....you have to build them youself....which he did...based on his knowledge he gained in 16 days at the top secret lab in holland. Subsequently he improved the design of even those centrifuges and published two scientific papers in international journals.....one on construction of centrifuges using maraging steel instead of urenco's aluminium.....and the other one on how etching is to be done on bearings.

May Allah bless Dr Qadeer with long healthy life.....and burn his enemies in the deepest part of hell and lead them to ruin in this life.

from what i understand from the following link, PAF can take out those 15-25 indian nukes either while thry are stationary or by running intense CAPs (combat air patrols).....while india would have a much lesser chanse at stopping a nuclear payload from Pakistan.

from what i understand from the following link, PAF can take out those 15-25 indian nukes either while thry are stationary or by running intense CAPs (combat air patrols).....while india would have a much lesser chanse at stopping a nuclear payload from Pakistan.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3340687/and i really don't see the point of alll tyhis arguing, it should be GENERAL KNOLEDGE or COMMOMSENSE which i hope every one has to say Pakistan is way ahead of those filthy indians........

PEACEPilot_dude

First of all that article is dated 2003.

Marine Corps Gen. Anthony Zinni, commander of the U.S. Central Command, said longtime assumptions that India had an edge in the South Asian strategic balance of power were questionable, at best.Strategic balance is only conventional. The minute an Indo-Pak war goes nuclear they will be no victories. Both lose. The difference being that India can survive it.

The U.S. report also states that 'India probably has a handful of nuclear bombs,' meaning about five.First of all handful does not necessarily mean five. Secondly, three years hence i'm sure India has at worst 15-35 nukes.

India has twice tested a new intermediate-ranged missile, the Agni, which may eventually provide the basis of a nuclear missile force. However, current U.S. analysis suggests the Agni will not be fielded with nuclear warheads for another 10 years.The Agni and Prithvi besides the Bhramos are nuclear capable. There is no debating it.

Other officials noted that Pakistan's air force, with its U.S. F-16's and its French Mirage fighter-bombers, are superior at penetrating enemy airspace than India's Soviet-designed MiGs and Sukhois. This was the funniest part. The Mirage III ROSE is better than the Mirage 2000-5? The F-16A/B is superior to the Su-30MKI?

PAF can take out those 15-25 indian nukes either while thry are stationary or by running intense CAPsIf the IAF is taking a collective holiday, yes. Assuming of course that the Indian nukes can be located.

Well every one should know & oppologies that yes Pakistan is much much batter power then its rival ... even rival is much more biger country have much more support from world powers & technology but still they don't have that kinda passion & more then all they don't have DR AQ KHAN ... whoz greatest

Another thing which make us more power is our UNITY on time of need ... Ok we have some concerns with out goveroment but when ever time need us we will be unite under Military dictatorship .. we will forget who is he only thing in our mind will be to " KICK INDIAN ASS " ... so enemies be awair ...

Other officials noted that Pakistan's air force, with its U.S. F-16's and its French Mirage fighter-bombers, are superior at penetrating enemy airspace than India's Soviet-designed MiGs and Sukhois. This was the funniest part. The Mirage III ROSE is better than the Mirage 2000-5? The F-16A/B is superior to the Su-30MKI?

india does not have any mirage 2005. so please write factual statements. no future plans. Su-30MKI is very potent but it is no F-22A raptor. Su-30MKI is a 4th generation plane like anyother 4th generation plane.

india does not have any mirage 2005. so please write factual statements. no future plans. Su-30MKI is very potent but it is no F-22A raptor. Su-30MKI is a 4th generation plane like anyother 4th generation plane.