Hutchison praises NASA bill; Wolf worries about China

By Jeff Foust on 2010 October 8 at 7:12 am ET

While President Obama didn’t get around to signing the NASA authorization bill Thursday, as Sen. Hutchison’s office had earlier reported, it didn’t stop her and several Houston-area members of Congress from praising the bill during a press conference Thursday afternoon at the Johnson Space Center. “This has not been an easy time,” Hutchison said. “We have a way forward today that is right for America, right for NASA and most certainly right for Johnson Space Center.”

Hutchison also published a letter to the “Houston NASA Community” as a Houston Chronicle op-ed on Friday, laying out her view on the bill. “I fought for this legislation because it was the right solution to the extraordinary challenge we were presented,” she wrote, but warning that “this is not the end of our struggle”. “Undoubtedly, in the months ahead, more questions will be raised about NASA funding and the feasibility of the approach laid out in the new law. Houston, I know the enormity of this task, and I promise that my work to advance the future of human space flight and to preserve the critical role of the Johnson Space Center will continue.”

185 comments to Hutchison praises NASA bill; Wolf worries about China

US collaboration with China is sheer madness, as is collaboration with Russia. Collaboration with the US should depend on a country’s political orientation. Only multiparty democracies allowed. Why enable a despot like Putin or Hu? Why gratuitously aid the technological development of the enemies of freedom? The new GOP congress will be a breath of fresh air.

China is going to the Moon. Any argument that they aren’t landing as we speak, doesn’t change the fact that their space program has the Moon and ciclunar space (where all commercial and defense satellites reside) as their goal and their defense department (aka China National Space Administration) is actively working that program. They’ve been acquiring a lot of information about our technology over the years and seem quite apt and focused on using it.

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The Washington Post has an interesting article today (“History of telecom company illustrates lack of strategic trust between U.S., China”) on a Chinese telecommunications company (Huawei) some will find informative.

[snip] The NSA called AT&T because of fears that China’s intelligence agencies could insert digital trapdoors into Huawei’s technology that would serve as secret listening posts in the U.S. communications network, said the sources, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to maintain their relationship with the companies. Huawei, the NSA and AT&T declined to discuss the agency’s intervention in the deal. …..

Sen. Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.) and seven other senators are accusing the company of links to the People’s Liberation Army and Iran’s Revolutionary Guards Corps. In an Aug. 18 letter, they wrote: “Huawei’s position as a supplier of Sprint Nextel could create substantial risk for U.S. companies and possibly undermine U.S. national security.”

….In researching Huawei, executives at the Cohen Group (William Cohen — Bill Clinton’s Sec of Defense) discovered that the U.S. government had little idea of the extent of Huawei’s business in the United States. American telecommunications firms are not obligated to inform the government of their purchases of foreign-manufactured equipment.

Although Huawei has just 2 percent of the U.S. telecommunications market, it is working with many big players. It is involved with Comcast on a project to provide voice calls through cable lines and is in talks with Verizon. Huawei has supplied the equipment for wireless service in Seattle and Chicago and will soon do so in San Francisco…….

The Cohen Group walked away from the deal, convinced that the U.S. government would not be satisfied that Owens’s firm (former vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, appointed by Bill Clinton) could ensure the security of Huawei’s equipment. …..

“China-U.S. relations will continually have twists and turns,” he (Huawei founder and chief executive Ren Zhengfei) writes, “but that shouldn’t stop us from learning from the American spirit of innovation so that we can become richer and more powerful ever faster.”

You miss my point entirely, Anne. The Soviet Union engaged in nearly all of the behaviors that China is criticized for now. However, that did not stop us from collaborating with the Russians on measures intended to build rapport and defuse tensions. We recognized that the value of those collaborations outweighed the risk.

China is a strategic competitor, not an existential enemy. Excluding them from international space exploration initiatives is only going to further their isolation and is not likely to motivate the government to improve their human rights record.

Perhaps I’m a bit jaded from my time in the national security arena, but getting work done in the real world sometimes means working with people whose hands aren’t entirely clean. Not even “multiparty democracies” are really so lily-white as we’d like to believe.

Exclusionary policies might make us feel better about ourselves, but I question their efficacy and their relevance to our national interests.

Exclusionary policies might make us feel better about ourselves, but I question their efficacy and their relevance to our national interests.

What national interests are being served holding our noses and cohabitating on the station space with the Russians while they arm and enable nuclear Iran dedicated to our destruction? ‘Practical’ engagement has been a total failure. Can’t you see that western attempts to appease Russia have failed, and will fail similarly with a monomaniacal China?

Anne – I submit that whether China is going to the moon or not (and I have yet to be convinced that they are, at least on any timescale that means anything), doesn’t really factor into the issue of whether to be concerned about China or not. There legitmate reasons to be concerned about China – (in no particular order) job outsourcing, ecological damage, human rights, currancy manipulation, trade imbalance, debt, etc.

But freaking out about the fact that one of your neighbors is looking at buying pickup truck that can go off road – I am sorry, I fail to see the freakout point.

JK — you brought up “Apollo-Soyuz Test Project” as an example of international cooperation.

I’m questioning how that can be used as an example of (U.S. Moon program with no budget, name, schedule, architecture)–Chang’e collaboration, when we are not in any position to join them on the playing field.

Sorry to inject a note of realism into the “Reds under the Beds” Sinophobia but ESA, Russia and more especially the emerging powers like Latin America are already cooperating.
This is isolationist rhetoric redolent of Bush 43’s Space Policy.
And Cx.
One would hope that the US has turned the corner on that sorry episode.

That’s nonsense of course. They are playing catch up and despite the scary rhetoric, the USA could mount a crash program an have a base on the moon within 5 years, if the political will to do so existed.

At this point, our roman senators are happy to fiddle while the years burn, but if it looks like China will leapfrog us in any significant way, technologically speaking, the fiddling will stop.

Anne,
I brought it up as a counterpoint to the suggestion that China improving its human rights record was a necessary pre-condition for any collaboration on space exploration, in general. You’re reading things far too narrowly.

Yes the new budget appears to be inadequate but we just needed something to work towards.

Cooperation with the Chinese in space, if done right, could benefit the US. Unfortunately, our chance of doing it right appears slim!!

Almost certainly, NASA would embark on some big project to make the Chinese a full partner. That would involve LOTS of learning their systems, negotiating differences in operating philosophy, adding complication that diverts us from getting something done, lots of travel, lots of translation, lots of work that did NOT include flying hardware.

This is the enormous mistake we have made with the Russians. Sure it is good to have an independent access to space – the Soyuz. But the way it has been done has compromised ISS safety, added great expense for no return, added lots of expenses that divert money from doing the job.

My years in the Air Force taught me that we must do a lot of business with people with blood on their hands. Do we think that Saudi Arabia is a gentle democratic country?

Another point – Anne Spudis asserts that all defense satellites operate in cis-Lunar orbits. Like the KH-12? White Cloud? DMSP? There are many defense satellites that are in near-near-near Earth orbits.

David,
Not doing business with nations whose standards are lesser than ours isn’t going to change their behavior. The Chinese would be particularly happy to snap up such deals, as they have in countries like Afghanistan. You don’t bring people around by turning up your nose at them.

It comes down to geopolitics. Cooperating and collaborating with the Chinese will give us more insight into their system, their goals, and their ambitions than not doing so. If we have shared interests in space, they are also more likely to consider our point-of-view than if we go it alone.

Wow, here a few months ago I was stating how China may gain an advantage over us in the space area. Everyone said they were not worried about it. Okay, why the sudden change of attitude? Plus, everything you buy today, just about, comes from China. Why support their workers if they want to destroy and take over the world? Double standards Id say. We have certainly made a difference with regards to their economies, and space efforts already. Didnt Clinton allow rocket tech to get into their hands? As is usual with war and enemies, they will be shaking our hand on one side, and cutting the other with a knife.

“The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them.” Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

The ruling oligarchy in China thinks America can be bought! So far, it seems to be true. US companies can’t outsource American jobs to China fast enough and continue to propagandize for it. Even US nuclear energy technology and the nuclear energy technology of other countries has been turned over to China in order for companies to build reactors in China. Now China is demanding that GM (a company the US tax payers bailed out) turn over their plug-in-hybrid technology to them if they want to sell their new cars in China.

But there’s nothing wrong with the ruling oligarchy in China doing what’s in their own best interest. And there’s nothing wrong with private companies doing what’s in their own best interest. But some people seem to get very angry when the American people also try to do what’s in their own best interest!

Cooperating with China usually means turning over American technology to the Chinese government. I don’t think continuing such an economic policy is a good idea. If the Chinese really want to join the ISS program then they better be ready to put up the annual amount of billions of dollars to do so. Otherwise, they can take their hollow symbols of cooperation elsewhere!

The goal of working with China is to prevent the militarization of space and encourage it’s peaceful economic development much in the way we see treat the worlds oceans.

The US has the advantage for a short period of time, maybe a decade, before China’s economic might takes over development of LEO. In that time it is in our best interests to encourage commercial development and new technologies as fast as we can so as to keep ahead of them. As a conservative society, innovation is stifled and they must obtain new technologies elsewhere. It is also in our best interests to encourage as many other nations as possible to buy into our view of how the heavens should be treated legally and operationally. If we define these protocols now, it will harder for China to undo or thwart our intent.

Mr. Wolf is aware of the shortage of funding at NASA and apparently appreciates the national security concerns, maybe appropriations will find the money to fully fund NASA, $22B this year.

Men, what’s wrong with you? Are you some kind of elitist highly educated nonsensical fellows? The Chinese are going to the Moon and they will use all the resources there to dominate the Moon. But not just the Moon, they will dominate the cislunar area as well. Yessir! He3 for their upcoming fusion reactor and regolith to build a new Great Wall on the Moon. And also dirt (is that the same as regolith?) so they can make hmm I don’t know dirt things. This is what Chinese do! Why would you care about geopolotics when selenopolitics are primordial for our survival, as a nation, as a species!

LEO will come to dominate the worlds geopolitics if it’s militarized, not the moon. It’s also cheaper to dominate LEO than the moon, not that a wealthy society wouldn’t do both.

A fully funded innovative NASA, including “commercial” as one guise, is the best chance the US has of preventing a militarized LEO for which the Chinese can outspend us as we outspent the Russians in the latter days of the Cold War.

One can whine about the inevitability of Chinese economic domination of the world, and cast the manhood of others in flames in one’s own frustrations, but what’s your plan then? Maybe a few elitist Senators can task a few elitist engineers to quell tht fear with a big big big rocket! The US needs more than just that!

My years in the Air Force taught me that we must do a lot of business with people with blood on their hands.

Why must we?…

not matter if we “Must” or not, we (the US and both political parties) seem to have no trouble doing it.

Saddam is a pretty good example. Saddam was a good friend of the US right up until he misjudged some statements April Galaspe (spell) made or misjudged some of the political ramifications here at home or both…and invaded Kuwait.

The Saddam of the 80’s was our friend. Don Rumsfeld made sure he had helicopters (and Rummy was a private citizen) to “spray” the pest that were invading his country with poisonous gas (Iranians) and put down occasional “bug fest” (the Kurds). When a pilot for Saddam goofed and nearly destroyed the Stark, so important to us was Saddam that we not only looked the other way, but then proceeded to destroy the Iranian navy for him.

The Republicans in particular seem to feel that its fine that China buys our debt, that we sale all sorts of things to them (like large autoclaves) which they promise not to use in defense industries (really they do, Dick Cheney said so)….

If any one or thing is responsible for the rise of the Reds as an economic super power it is the GOP and their massive deficit spending. Both parties have had no problem with Walmart and what it has done for Chinese industry and to American industry.

We only seem to get upset at our dictator friends when they become a whipping boy for some ideological bend that our politicians sometimes go on.

The right wing of the GOP was all against stopping Al Queda in Yugoslavia (after all the Serbs were only killing Muslims) but on the other hand they were all concerned about Saddam after 9/11 even though of course, he had nothing to do with it.

“If any one or thing is responsible for the rise of the Reds as an economic super power it is the GOP and their massive deficit spending. Both parties have had no problem with Walmart and what it has done for Chinese industry and to American industry. ”

to which I would add causally;
Ronald Reagan and his free-trade policies of the 1980s, Corporate America never imagined that China would use every single aspect of that trade policy to their advantage and conveniently ignore it where their own interest might be subjugated. These trade imbalances are indicative of the US loosing an economic war with China. With enough of our debt we are and will be manipulated further, industries destroyed, etc.

That’s where American jobs have gone, selective trade protection might not be a bad thing, the aerospace industry for instance.

I wonder how many of those who see China as our great enemy actually went to China… Just curious. Not that I went often but still more than zero.

And btw if those so worried about China would care to become realists they would try and understand their role in contemporary geopolitics, the rising influence, that China is everywhere in south east Asia, setting foot in Africa. That the Chinese are traders and that what is important is that they hold the purses to our economy. That if we want to go to the Moon we may have to ask them the cash to do it. Back during the Cold War, the USSR did not hold our economy, our debt.

And btw if you want to go to China and you hold a security clearance you don’t even have to report it unless specific circumstances. So even our own DoD does not see China as such a great enemy, only NASA fans do. Weird is it not?

actually if one reads history the Chinese are doing almost what the US did in its rise to “power” status during the first half of the last century.

WW2 was a singularity upon which history pivoted…but until that point the US was on a pretty slow but steady rise to that of an economic power with a modest but functional military to serve its needs…ie we kept or military “use” tendencies to local/regional problems…while we pushed our economic power; much like the Chinese are doing.

At the end of WW1 we owned a great deal of French and British debt and were using that to fuel economic expansion much as the Chinese are using our debt…it is after all almost “free money”.

Where great powers stumble (and we are in some danger of that) is illustrated well by history. They get over extended, start thinking that every solution is a military one (because after all they have a large one) and start neglecting the economic social impacts of society.

Nothing is written in stone and while we are stumbling; good leadership (which we have not had since Clinton and he was only “modestly good”) and some good notion of nationhood can fix that. What is strange for me right now is that the GOP right and their notion of space policies and politics is opposed to both those things (good leadership and a good notion of nationhood).

I dont fear the Chinese as much as I fear the nuts in our own political system

“Where great powers stumble (and we are in some danger of that) is illustrated well by history. ”

You mean when education standards fall and your students are no longer leading the world? Your workforce has lower standards with each generation? Your infrastructure is crumbling down and no signs up repair? Your spending more than anyone on the planet for health care but your health care standards do not lead the world? Your population is 30% obese, with all the associated health risks and nothing is done to remove the source of obesity from the system? And the whole time the country is heading downhill people cry “American Exceptionalism”? Are those some of the signs of a faltering nation?

the only disagreement I have is that with few exceptions I dont think most American corporate leaders care.

What Ronaldus the Great could not foresee, because he loved The Republic so much is that the future of corporations and his own party would be full of people who loved self far more then they loved their corporation or even The Republic.

Newt Gingrich (a smart guy) is typical but so is the management of say Walmart. (there are Dems in this slot as well).

These are people who are quite bright and do well at manipulating the masses in terms of not their own self interest, but in the self interest of the leadership. Hence Newt can have an affair all the time he is critical of The president for having one; and it doesnt bother Newt at all the hypocrisy, nor does it really bother the folks who listen to him. Walmart regularly screws its employees while the very top gets more and more well off (and the Chinese make out like Bandits) but they are able to convince their “associates” and a lot of other people in America that “this is the American way” sort of a modern western version of life.

thats carried on into the almost unlimited federal spending which has simply weakened the nation; all under stupid slogans like “the war will pay for itself” (and how goofy was that?)

in the end free trade is nice, but free trade where the leaders of The Republic put their own interest above that of either their companies or The Republic is nuts.

Whats good for a company is good for the USA (and vica versa) is no longer in play…it is now “what is good for the major players on the board of directors” is good for everyone even the people it screws.

A a native Hong Konger, I find the image of a terrifying, monolithic and inhumanly long-sighted China incredibly amusing. It appears the Fu Manchu image is still around, eh?

Honestly, I’m unsure if China is going to survive the next 20 years. Things are coming to head inside and outside of the PRC and unless the Party is far more intelligent than I think they are, they’ll probably end up exasperating the situation to the point that the entire PRC implodes in civil or national war.

Swinging this discussion back to space – anyone know when President Obama is going to sign the bill? I’ll rest easier once the final step is complete.

It’s true that Nixon’s first trip to China in the early 1970’s initiated the beginning of a NEW economic alliance with China. It is important to stress this: Every president including Obama has continued with economic ties with China for several purposes including the fact they don’t want to alienate China. This was all developed as a way to prevent another global war. There have been instances where China was not allowed to buy computers, etc. during the Clinton era but th at was reversed towards the end of Clinton’s presidency.

All of this must be remembered as one of the several reasons why America has ties with the Russians and Chinese when it comes to space adventures. What I object to is this: NOW America is reliant on the Russians for a ride to ISS because the Shuttle missions are going to end soon. Yes I know this is partly Bush’s fault. But you would think Obama would try to reverse that but he didn’t. These 2 politicians have taken/are taking big chances with national security. I suppose though that Bush did that because China basically was on our side after the 9/11/01 attacks.

Our policy toward Iraq in the eighties was to provide Saddam with what he needed to not lose the war to our enemy in Tehran, and to hope that both sides lost (which was essentially what happened). Only the politically clueless would think that made him our “friend.”

How could he have? The Shuttle shutdown was pretty much a fait accompli by the time he started working space policy, and the plan for commercial crew is the one that will eliminate our dependence on the Russians as fast as possible.

Meg – the problem is the time to have totally eliminated the gap passed us back 2008, IMHO. There might have possibly been some way to avoid some of it, in 2009, when Obama became president. But it would’ve been very hard, and very costly. IMHO, Obama did everything he could to reduce the gap on the front end, by going full bore towards Commercial Crew.

(and I am sorry, but can someone explain to me what the “national security” issue is?)

DoD assessment of China earlier this year did indicate the Chinese were not planning to dominate space in the new future. It’s space program is not expected to really pickup until 2018 or 2020.

I appreciate Mimir’s input, internal Chinese politics is virtually unknown in US, beyond the perceived paranoia of the PRC about everything and a major ethnic dichotomy defined by language.

The specter of China-space could be used as a political tool to encourage more spending on NASA and space based defenses (the thought has occurred to me before). A little rivalry doesn’t hurt and China has repeatedly shown it’s reluctance to engage in shooting wars.

Let’s hope its a friendly rivalry and motivates both nations space efforts! That would be good for humanity.

“What I object to is this: NOW America is reliant on the Russians for a ride to ISS because the Shuttle missions are going to end soon. Yes I know this is partly Bush’s fault. But you would think Obama would try to reverse that but he didn’t. These 2 politicians have taken/are taking big chances with national security. I suppose though that Bush did that because China basically was on our side after the 9/11/01 attacks.”

I think your view is too shortsighted. What is happening today actually is not the last two Presidents’ fault whatsoever. The USA is losing its ability to launch humans to space because the USA used to rely on a system based on Cold War practices for human space: Apollo, then Shuttle and eventually ISS but for a different reason. Bush made many, many (did I say many?) mistakes BUT the VSE was a good start. The VSE did include commercial access to space. O’Keefe was building the plan according to the VSE. Griffin on the other hand played the Cold War card and lost. Obama now was trying to go back to the original intent of the VSE with commercial as a pillar to the new plan and the development of new technologies. Yet the old guard still wants a super-duper HLV with no mission and no payload. This is going to cost NASA its role in HSF especially if they go the HEFT route. See for HEFT and HLV to happen they need cash, a lot of cash and they will NOT get the cash. So now what? The real smart thing to do would be to associate ourselves with China. Indeed China is looking to show how great a super power they have become. They could claim their association with the USA on the space front as having joined the (former) leader. The US could share the cost – unclear of course since China holds the purse anyway. In any case as many have said there is no good reason for human exploration of space, soft power foreign policy may be one though – even that is not that clear. Bolden is currently doing all the right things by visiting uncommon partners and China even though he’s being blamed for it. People say he should stay home to help. To help with what??? He will not reinstate Shuttle nor Constellation. He actually is helping but then again people need to think and it is becoming really hard these days to think. Thinking is hard work…

Meg – How? A large chunk of the production lines were closed down. You could re-open them, but it would’ve been VERY costly. And its not certain there would be money to do follow-on/replacement vehicles.

The manufacturing lines for certain parts of the space shuttle had closed down already, many more were in the process of shutting down. To restart those manufacturing lines for shuttle parts would have been very costly. If the newest space crafts were underfunded already, and counted on getting the funds from the shuttle being closed down. How could have Obama got the funds from congress to not only stop the shuttle close out, but the extra funding needed to restart manufacturing lines for shuttle parts and on top of that .. fund the new space craft, that were already underfunded?

“Imho, the national security issue is this: what if all of sudden Putin gets angry with America? So what are we going to do if we suddenly don’t have instant access to the ISS?”

Hmm yeah? What are we going to do if we do not have access to the ISS? What did we do before the ISS even existed? In what way is ISS so important to national security?

As a side note, what did we do when Russia invaded Georgia? Now I am not arguing the right or wrong aspect of the invasion but Georgia is friendly with the US and Russia militarily reacted to Georgia. So? What did we actually do?

what if all of sudden Putin gets angry with America? So what are we going to do if we suddenly don’t have instant access to the ISS?

And so? Forgive me, and I would hate to lose access to the $100 Billion dollar laboratory we have built, but how does this affect our national security? Is it going to endanger our troops in the field? Is it going to result in large sectors of our economy not being able to be controlled by Americans? Is it impacting our ability to gather intelligence? Is there a national infrastructure that is vital to our daily lives that is dependent upon having ISS? Is there a natural resource, vital to our economy, that is dependent on ISS?

How is it impacting our national security? If there isn’t a “must have” that depends on ISS, then there is no national security issue.

The President could ask but that would mean VERY little to congress. Look what they did when he asked for funds for his NASA 2011 budget. All money bills shall originate in the house of representatives, namely the house ways and means committee…. there is no way they would have appropriated the sums your idea would have cost.

As Rand Simberg has pointed out in a PM article and Wayne Hale on his blog… NASA is charged to do more than the budget they get will allow. You could do all those things .. keep the shuttle flying, fund commercial crew, develop new spacecraft and do another moon program ..including setting up a base.. but where does the funding come from? NASA will never get the funding to do all of that.

Rand – I grant that is an issue that is RAISED by maintaining ISS access. But the underlying question isn’t “do we have to keep the Russians placated to have ISS access?”, but rather “Why is US having any access (whether from NASA, foreign partners, or commercial providers) to ISS a national security issue?”

(Again, I don’t want to lose access, for a variety of reasons, but what is so vital to our survival as a nation, at this point, for having ISS? Its why I say there is no national security issue, when considering if Putin wants to cut off access to ISS)

Some of you think ISS is not considered a part of our security issues yet why are we Americans always sending astronauts up there? While the science aspect is valuable and I applaude that very much but don’t you think our folks are sent there to make sure everything is “okay” up there. Yes, I know I am not using the correct ‘terms’ you all would use but you get my point.

Meg, I work on the ISS Program and I used to work in weapons intelligence. We send people to the Station for science and to learn how to live and work in space. Even when we fly DoD payloads to Station, those are science and technology demonstrators. It is not an intelligence-gathering platform.

Neither did I. I said the ISS is not an intelligence-gathering platform, as you insinuated. As for the funding, Congress is not going to appropriate substantially more funding for NASA than what we see now.

“I guess no one on this board wants to talk about the fund savings when all is closed down in Iraq….ok. I guess I will go back and sit in my corner and let you all figure it out for me. (j/k).”

Meg, I am sorry but you do not seem to understand that if and when the war(s) is (are) over this suddenly “available” cash will NOT go to NASA nor anywhere for that matter. It will somehow repay the debt in some way. It only becomes something we don’t have to pay and that we do not need money to borrow for or bills to print for. See?

I disagree with you, J. Kugler. I think they are there to keep an eye on the projects at hand as well as to make sure nothing unusual is happening at the station or ‘out there’. And I’m sure the Russians are doing the same thing. Just because it’s not discussed doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. Of course this imo and well you don’t have to believe or agree with me.

Now getting back to appropriations:
Obama and Congress agreed in 2009 for things like Cash for Clunkers, so why can’t Congress okay more funding for our space projects in the next term. It would keep folks off the unemployment line plus it could add to the local economies.

You can think whatever you like, Meg. Your theory just doesn’t have a basis in reality.

With regards to appropriations, there is absolutely no indication the relevant committees will exceed the amounts requested in the authorization bill that is going to the President’s desk. You’re engaging in wishful thinking.

The ISS is important to the USA and Russian government when it comes to naional security. It also is a science laboratory and a joint effort towards peace.

How so? Espionage is forbidden from the space station. The Russians are arming Iran and enabling their nuclear program. The Russians have also invaded Georgia, and subverted the politics of Ukraine. The science value of the ISS is minuscule compared to its ruinously high cost. Peace does not seem to be a top Russian concern. Making global mischief is.

ISS has clearly distorted the NASA budget for the next 10 years, and with the help of the Bolsheviks in the Whitehouse, has effectively arrested an effort to replace the shuttle.

Platitudes like the above posting are no substitute for a bilateral relationship based on reality. The US and Russia are geopolitical adversaries by any rational definition of the word. Democracy in Russia is lost.

Meg – again, I go back – how is ISS vital to our National secuirty? Suppose it were to blow up (ignore the how for a moment)? How would that really affect our national secuirty?

As for getting more money for NASA – I’d love to see it happen. But
1. Remember the difficulty of getting money for the Stimulus bill. It was like trying to pull teeth.
2. NASA hasn’t, historically, demonstrated an ability to be the most effective use for funding. Part of this is that NASA was designed for a much higher budget, but it maintains a number of systems that have severe in-efficiencies. Its time to deal with that, and then consider expansion.
3. It hasn’t really happened in 40 years.
Therefore, its time to stop asking/hoping Congress & the President will give more money to NASA.

I would like to respond to your observation about us not coming to Georgia’s aid when things heated up between that nation and Russia. Imo, our government had its hands full with Afghanistan, Iraq and other areas such as Pakistan so we really didn’t want to commit more resources to that issue. Our gov’t didn’t want to tick off Putin.

J Kugler: Yes, I agree with you, it’s wishful thinking on my part that the next Congress could actually consider more appropriations. I doubt it will happen not because we don’t have the funding but because other lobbyists will get to Congress and tell them what to do.

Meg – again, I go back – how is ISS vital to our National secuirty? Suppose it were to blow up (ignore the how for a moment)? How would that really affect our national secuirty?

I already explained it see the commentary towards J. Kugler. TY.

If the station ceased to exist, I would imagine both the Russian and US Gov’t would be ‘concerned’. Most likely, Congress will be asked for funding to build something else (either in space or on the Moon). And the Russians will find a way to also to get the funding for anther station of sorts.

I’m sorry for not answering all the quesions/observations but I need to get off the computer. My legs are getting numb.I would like to sum up and let some one else have a chance to go at it.

I get the feeling some posters on the board think our government is severely in lack of funding. Granted the Iraq/Afghanistan, etc. wars/missions has drained quite a bit of the funding but we still have a lot of funding and will continue to do so because it doesn’t look like the majority of babyboomers are ready to retire yet.

The main reason the stimulus packages were so hard to get passed was not bcause of lack of funds. It was due to political bickering.

Now if some of the posters were complaining the economy is a wreck and that’s why we can’t raise funds, I would agree with you up to a point. Once the big corporations stop hoarding their savings to buy other companies and start hiring once again, there will be plenty of tax dollars out there and there’s no reason why this nation can’t be first in space once again.

Justin, Justin — I’m sure you heard China complain how they’re not invited to science meetings, when in fact they’re often included in the agenda but just don’t show. It is quite obvious they are intent on their space program, and doing it their way for their own purposes.

They really don’t want us there looking over their shoulder and slowing them down.

“… so we really didn’t want to commit more resources to that issue. Our gov’t didn’t want to tick off Putin.”

But we would tick him off if he does not grant us access to the ISS via Soyuz? Really? How’bout in that case we buy Shenzhous? Very likely a lot less expensive than developing our own capability, right?

@ Meg wrote @ October 8th, 2010 at 3:46 pm

“I get the feeling some posters on the board think our government is severely in lack of funding.”

Yes indeed. But worse is that HSF is severely in lack of justification for any funding. Hence the rhetoric about China and other nonsensical catastrophe if we don’t go to the Moon today.

Common Sense: would you help me to remember what else we have to pay back besides the war debt? I want to make sure I understand your pov.”

Hmm, ever heard of the financial meltdown due to defaulting mortgages? Defaulting credit cards? All the airline industry after 9/11? GM? Chrysler? Basically all those things we cannot afford and got on credit of one sort or another. And then of course the issues of poor health care management, education, lack of production facilities within our borders, etc… All of those things have to be paid and recently most have been paid with taxpayers dollars.

Yes, Common Sense, I have heard of these issues. I just wanted to know where you were headed so I could answer you.

Seems to me some of the companies that took the bail out funding have started paying it back. My guess is because they bought what they wanted (as in companies) and didn’t want Obama’s people breathing down its neck so they gave the money back or started paying back some of it. I could look it up if you wanted specifics like what corporations but I think you could find that online as well.

Do you really want me to go so off topic about healthcare on this thread?

Anyway, I suppose there were nay sayers during the Kennedy/Johnson/Nixon years when Congress poured funds into Nasa projects. There’s always excuses why we shouldn’t do this or that when it come to space related ideas.

Our policy toward Iraq in the eighties was to provide Saddam with what he needed to not lose the war to our enemy in Tehran, and to hope that both sides lost (which was essentially what happened). Only the politically clueless would think that made him our “friend.”..

But Don Rumsfeld said Saddam was “our friend” in a toast as did Jim Baker…about six months before Saddam invaded Kuwait. Both toast are on U tube…

Saddam was certainly more our friend then the Iranians were, and more our friend then the Kurds were, who we were quite happy for him to gas, during the pre Gulf war era. Of course at one point Osama Son of Ladin was our friend as well, we had CIA agents fighting along side of him in Afland.

The notion of both Iran and Iraq losing in their mutual war with each other is that of Super K’s (Henry Kissinger)…but when Saddam started the war in Sept of 1980, we had no problem with him doing it. US military planners helped him. It was US military planners who advised him onthe now famous (at least in the mideast) SCUD barrage of Iran.

REMEMBER, THEY’RE STILL COMMIES: Chinese Police Force Nobel Peace Prize Winner’s Wife To Leave Home. The winner himself, of course, is in a dungeon. Just because they sold you an iPhone doesn’t mean they’re for freedom.

Meg – I am sorry, but I don’t really agree with you. I hvaen’t seen any evidence that ISS has any relation to intelligence gathering, (which I think you are referring too), and until I see such evidence, I assume that the Air force much prefers using its satellites. I suspect that, if ISS were to sudden go bye-bye (see Modern Warfare 2 ), I believe NASA would either be disbanded, or it would be reformed to something like the “Shawcross option”

With regards to getting more funding for NASA – I agree, it really is a question of political will. I submit, that isn’t there for NASA. And we can wish it to be otherwise, but I don’t believe for a minute that Congress & Obama will approve any sort of major increase for NASA’s budget. I wish it were otherwise, but I don’t see it happening. And if we aren’t going to get that increase, the next best thing is to use our funds more efficiently, and try and find funds outside the government (ie private sector)

Don’t underestimate China or blow off their efforts and capabilities in space, business, or war. Hope for the best plan for the worst.

Having an appreciation for China is not fear.

Everything is a contest, although not always a zero sum game. If we are in the lead when it comes to space then why blow it? Why put ourselves in the position to have to come out in the 2nd half and fight our way back.

The U.S. Air Force lit up the night sky above California Saturday (Sept. 25) with the launch a new satellite sentinel to keep tabs on other spacecraft and the growing problem of space junk around Earth.

The Space-Based Space Surveillance satellite, called SBSS, will monitor the orbital environment as part of the U.S. military’s evolving Space Surveillance Network.

…

“This satellite is going to revolutionize the way we track objects in space by not being constrained by weather, the atmosphere or the time of day,” said Col. J.R. Jordan, vice-commander of the Space Superiority Systems Wing at the U.S. Air Force Space and Missile Systems Center, in a prelaunch briefing. “This capability will be essential to our space situational awareness architecture for the near future and beyond.” [Worst Space Debris Moments in History]

The satellite is essential to keep U.S. space assets safer and more secure, as well as “keeping America at the forefront of space,” Jordan added.

The overall cost of the SBSS program is about $858 million, Air Force officials have said. …

@Anne: “Red moon,” baby. Count on it. It’s haping up to be their century and the under 40 types just say ‘so what?’ having been suckered on free-market ideology since Reagan’s days and think they’ve turned them into capitalists. They’ll swop ends on America as soon as they’re ready. Expect another “sputnik moment’ before 2020– a circumnavigation of the moon by a manned Chinese spacecraft. It will be the 21st Century’s Apollo 8 and a triumph for the rising East.

@Oler: “Newt Gingrich (a smart guy).” More like a half-wit, and increasingly irrelevant to the discourse of today.

@Oler: “Newt Gingrich (a smart guy).” More like a half-wit, and increasingly irrelevant to the discourse of today…

I dont agree Newt is a half wit. He is a very clever politician who knows how to hit the hot buttons of the folks who he is trying to get to rally behind him…(both he and Palin are trying for the same group).

As for being irrelevant…maybe we will see…I dont think either he or Palin will ever be POTUS.

“Expect another “sputnik moment’ before 2020– a circumnavigation of the moon by a manned Chinese spacecraft. It will be the 21st Century’s Apollo 8 and a triumph for the rising East.”

and not seen as anything really special in the West except by people who are looking for yet another enemy.

“Count on it. It’s haping up to be their century and the under 40 types just say ‘so what?’ having been suckered on free-market ideology since Reagan’s days and think they’ve turned them into capitalists. They’ll swop ends on America as soon as they’re ready.”

No wonder why baby boomers are so despised.

“Expect another “sputnik moment’ before 2020– a circumnavigation of the moon by a manned Chinese spacecraft. It will be the 21st Century’s Apollo 8 and a triumph for the rising East.”

A circumnavigation of the Moon is a Sputnik moment? It’s Friday, enjoy the cocktails you may be right on time for “happy” hour.

The ruling oligarchy in China believes that the US is fundamentally a plutocracy (government by the rich, for the rich, and of the rich) and that our politicians are basically obedient to corporations since they contribute to their campaigns . So the more influence the ruling Chinese oligarchy has over American corporations, the more influence they’ll have over American politicians and America itself. China believes that they will soon be the largest economy on Earth, so they need to protect their interest by expanding their economic and political influence around the world, including the US through their influence over the corporations.

However, the danger to China is that their rapid economic rise combined with the lack of freedom and democracy is stirring up anti-China nationalist feelings in still powerful economic powers like the US and Japan. While US and Japanese businessmen love Chinese money, the Japanese and American people and their militaries don’t trust a country that is not free and democratic.

But it would be difficult for the ruling oligarchy in China to give up their power since its also making them very very rich:

“…most of the Chinese rich also have the most important trait: They’re related to a top government official. A 2006 study by several Chinese research institutions showed that almost 90% of the country’s top leaders in sectors encompassing finance, foreign trade, property development, construction, and stock trading were princelings, or offspring of top government officials.” The Wall Street Journal December 11, 2009.

So it looks like the ruling oligarchy in China is also trying to become the ruling aristocracy! Money makes the world go around:-)

“Now getting back to appropriations:
Obama and Congress agreed in 2009 for things like Cash for Clunkers, so why can’t Congress okay more funding for our space projects in the next term. It would keep folks off the unemployment line plus it could add to the local economies.”

I’d be surprised if NASA got to keep the extra $2B that was added in the authorization. First, neither NASA nor anyone else has made a good case for why the money is needed; a couple of major projects are seriously doubtful. The HLV once finished is likely to have no payload to carry and its likely that an HLV could be provided less expensively based on commercial expendables. Orion is redundant. But even more questionable than the serious need for either of these, I think its suddenly dawned on a lot of people that NASA is extremely wasteful.

Congress is providing NASA with a powerful tool that could be used to do all kinds of incredible things witin cis-lunar space and possibly even beyond. But you have to have a President that’s willing to use those tools. Unfortunately, President Obama doesn’t appear to be that interested in space. Fortunately, Obama will be out of office by the time an HLV is fully operational, even if he gets a second term.

I think it’s funny, and a little scary, that so many are ready to embrace the Chinese and assume that there are no intentions for anything…

I think it’s funny and really scary that you can draw the above conclusion from where the thread has gone. I know thats been said, but for me it puts the rest of your comments in perspective Robert G. Oler

Hell yes, the Chinese taikonauts circumnavigating the Moon WILL be a Sputnik moment!!! Endlessly circling the Earth has NONE of the grandeur of sending a manned capsule on a trans-planetary trajectory!!! All the morons who are saying “so what” have NO damned idea what the implications of this would-be feat are,—plus how radically different a manned voyage to another celestial body is, compared to a shuttle hop to the stupid ISS!! People have been smoking sci-fi cannabis for far too long. They think manned deep space flight is such a piece of cake. Why hasn’t one measly other country ever attempted it? Apparently there are things that ONLY America is capable of doing!

Seriously, that is all you have? “My comments in perspective”? I mean, what is wrong with suggesting that perhaps we should not trust a society like China? What’s wrong with saying perhaps we should not just take them at their word as if it is credible? What’s wrong with actually being prepared and making plans?

I actually assumed you would post some sort of comment in order to go against my post. I also assumed it would be irrelevent and be meaningless like nearly every post I see from you. Thank you for not disappointing and it is nice to know you are so predictable.

“Why hasn’t one measly other country ever attempted it? Apparently there are things that ONLY America is capable of doing!”

The Soviets did, but they never got their hardware to work, and ended up canceling the program because the cost wasn’t worth the benefit. And if you remember your history, that’s the same reason (cost/benefit) that we ended the Apollo program.

“Chinese taikonauts circumnavigating the Moon WILL be a Sputnik moment!”

Maybe, but by the time they finally do it, Google will have landed someone on the Moon.

I don’t doubt that the Russians or the Chinese have the potential to go to the Moon.

For the Chinese, they have announced a pretty conservative space program, which fits into their culture (i.e. risk adverse), and so far they are still working on LEO operations.

For the Russians, I think they will do whatever they can afford to do (which is not a lot) to bring in outside money. They do have the knowledge to send a small craft around the Moon, and they are far less risk adverse than the Chinese. The only thing holding them back is a lousy economy and too much political graft.

But if someone actually demonstrates that they are serious about going to the Moon, that may not be a bad thing. If we have our commercial LEO marketplace going (cargo & crew), then we’ll be in perfect shape for ramping up and surpassing everyone else.

Meg wrote @ October 8th, 2010 at 2:06 pm
It’s true that Nixon’s first trip to China in the early 1970′s initiated the beginning of a NEW economic alliance with China. <- The 'visit' such as it was had little to do with China and everything to do with presuring the Soviets.

The reason why the Sputnik moment was a Sputnik moment, was because it demonstrated that the Russians could ballistically lob into US territory way before anyone in the DOD believed that they could.
An Apollo 8 revisited would prove that ‘The New Red Menace” (TM) could reproduce what the Russians and the Americans could do now. If, as Coastal Ron so rightly points out, there was any benefit to the costs involved. Which there aren’t. So they won’t.

“the grandeur of sending a manned capsule on a trans-planetary trajectory!!!”
The MOON !!!! is not a PLANET!!!!! And more to the point the ISS orbit IS a “trans-planetary trajectory” and will continue to be until 2028. Maybe longer…

This moron is more impressed by the COMMITMENT to long term projects like the Shuttle and the ISS than the ill fated Apollo Program. And, as I have said before, we are learning on the ISS how to build, maintain and repair the necessary hardware for a Deep Space Vessel. From the looks of things we’ve a fair way to go.
The denigration of the Shuttle ‘hop’ to orbit, via one of the most complicated pieces of hardware on the planet, is a real insight into the mind of the commenter. No matter the heritage or the heroism involved: the Shuttle is last week’s toy and baby wants a shiny new rattle!
“Why hasn’t one measly other country ever attempted it?”
COST!!!!
“Apparently there are things that ONLY America is capable of doing!”
(Let’s not go there!)
PS Where does one find “SciFi Cannabis?” Sounds interesting. Are the effects similar to Bentlam or Nitrolabe or even Thionite? Inquiring minds want to know!

Even if they sent a crew, it probably won’t be until the late 2020s, more than fifty years after we left.

By international treaty, the Moon belongs to the world, not any one country, although according to Wikipedia none of the spacefaring countries has ratified it.

Let’s put on the loony-bin paranoia cap for a moment.

Three taikonauts land on the Moon, plant a Chinese flag and claim it belongs to China.

So what.

Good luck defending it.

It will be hugely expensive just to send a mission there. Can you imagine how much it would cost to have an army permanently based there capable of roving the entire Moon?!

And this would be while the rest of the world laughs at their lunacy. Pun intended.

If they want to go get more Moon rocks 50+ years after we did, let them. It cost us 5% of our national budget for a good part of the 1960s. If they want to waste the money, be my guest.

As I’ve said many times before, there’s a very good reason why no one else went after we did. It costs way too much and there’s no financial return to it, not yet anyway. The only reason we went was to show the world our technology was better than the Soviets. JFK made that clear many times, in public and in private.

Thanks for clearing that up, because none of the comments here have advocated “trusting” the PRC. Rather they have suggested and then debated the notion of engaging in cooperative space missions, issues of trust aside.

C.R. Keith wrote @ October 9th, 2010 at 6:02 am
Meg wrote @ October 8th, 2010 at 2:06 pm
It’s true that Nixon’s first trip to China in the early 1970′s initiated the beginning of a NEW economic alliance with China. <- The 'visit' such as it was had little to do with China and everything to do with presuring the Soviets.

Hi C.R. Keith:

I agree with you the Nixon visit to China in 1970's and continued talks/agreements did put pressure on the Russian gov't. but that was not the main goal. The main goal was to stop alienating China. It is important to understand what has happened and how it relates to space and economic ties with Russia and China of today. This is still a measure to keep "peace" between the 3 big 'powers'.

To the folks who disagree with me about ISS intelligence gathering, I would agree with you there are snooping satellites for the primary purpose to keep 'tabs' but I also still believe there is some of that going on at the ISS as well. I know- you think my opinion on that is baseless. I guess we will have to disagree on that aspect.

For the folks who think the space projects must be cost effective, I submit to you that you can't measure it always in terms of the dollar, the yen, the pound and the kroner, etc. What you deem as "too expensive" is a matter of opinion. Luckily, Christopher Columbus and other explorers did whatever they could to finance their adventures. The only reason Congress (from the Bush and now Obama era) have not been as generous in funding is because they had other agendas. If you think money has been wasted by NASA, ask yourself did we really accomplish anything in Vietnam and Iraq? Yes, we got rid of S. Hussein and that was good but have we really done anything else that is of great value in those 2 regions? Some might say yes. It depends I guess on what one would consider as an accomplishment.

We have a chance to redeem ourselves as a species by continuing exploration and hopefully for peaceful purposes. I welcome commercial and NASA efforts. We need both. I hope the future Congress will realize the need to add more funding. Yes, I already know some of you have said it won't happen. Maybe it will if we all contacted the new Congress members in January and ask them to help, it could lead to more funding. Instead of saying it's not possible, please try to help make it happen.

Or, you could provide some factual basis for your theory. What equipment is being used, who is manning it, what are they doing, what is the value of the intelligence? If you’re going to have a news-worthy theory, it helps to have a factual basis for it.

You also realize that the crew of the ISS is not strictly American, and that everybody can poke around into all the equipment. That would be a security nightmare.

The only “intelligence gathering” happening on the ISS is probably related to Russian & American food choices…

On the contrary, I am assuming nothing. I am not the one saying “who cares about this or that” or “so what if the Chinese go here or there”.

I’m not saying we should be concerned about it, of course I’m assuming we do not cede or abilities, and I’m not even saying there may not be a role for some very limited cooperation. I am simply saying it stuns me that so many are so cavalier about the Chinese and the possible implications given the nature of their society and government.

Concerning ISS – if you were to provide some sort of evidence, I’d gladly take a look at it, and if the evidence is compelling, I’ll change my opinion. As yet though, I haven’t seen you provide any evidence. And there is evidence against you.

With regard to contacting congress, and asking for more money…

The fundamental problem, and this is something we in the space activist community need to come to grips with, is there isn’t enough of us who believe in human spaceflight (who are willing to become politically active ie contact reps, create petitions, loby congress, etc) to get congress to massively increase NASA funding. This sucks, and we can curse it, but the numbers just aren’t there, AND, we don’t have enough Congress critters (or a president) who are true space believers

(NOTE, that doesn’t mean that President Obama wants to cancel human spaceflight – its just not in his top ten most important things, much like previous presidents).

One last thing – you submit that you can’t always measure things in terms of dollars. HOWEVER, there are a good number of people who do. And we need to either silence those people, or get them arguing for us. And I do believe there is a case to be made that space can add substantially to our economy (which it doesn’t, right now).

Arawak men and women, naked, tawny, and full of wonder, emerged from their villages onto the island’s beaches and swam out to get a closer look at the strange big boat. When Columbus and his sailors came ashore, carrying swords, speaking oddly, the Arawaks ran to greet them, brought them food, water, gifts. He later wrote of this in his log:

They … brought us parrots and balls of cotton and spears and many other things, which they exchanged for the glass beads and hawks’ bells. They willingly traded everything they owned… . They were well-built, with good bodies and handsome features…. They do not bear arms, and do not know them, for I showed them a sword, they took it by the edge and cut themselves out of ignorance. They have no iron. Their spears are made of cane… . They would make fine servants…. With fifty men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want.

These Arawaks of the Bahama Islands were much like Indians on the mainland, who were remarkable (European observers were to say again and again) for their hospitality, their belief in sharing. These traits did not stand out in the Europe of the Renaissance, dominated as it was by the religion of popes, the government of kings, the frenzy for money that marked Western civilization and its first messenger to the Americas, Christopher Columbus.

Columbus wrote:As soon as I arrived in the Indies, on the first Island which I found, I took some of the natives by force in order that they might learn and might give me information of whatever there is in these parts.

Is Columbus the role model for exploration that you REALLY want to use? Is that the way earth should move out into the solar system? We should send a Ghengis Khan out as our first messenger?

“I am simply saying it stuns me that so many are so cavalier about the Chinese and the possible implications given the nature of their society and government.”

There are plenty of reasons to be concern with the Chinese, primarily economically and to a lesser extent militarily. However, HSF, being largely irrelevant and uneconomical, is not one of them. In fact, the most effective way to keep an eye on the Chinese HSF program would be to invite them to participate in ISS.

Precisely, Rhyolite. In my opinion, there is no better way for us to get insight into their human spaceflight program.

Mike, you were making implicit assumptions about the positions of other commenters here, assumptions that are not necessarily supported by their statements. You should be more careful when painting with a wide brush.

“brobof wrote @ October 9th, 2010 at 6:47 am
Hysteria AND!!! Hyperbole from Chris Castro wot wrote @ October 9th, 2010 at 12:41 am “The reason why the Sputnik moment was a Sputnik moment, was because it demonstrated that the Russians could ballistically lob into US territory way before anyone in the DOD believed that they could. An Apollo 8 revisited would prove that ‘The New Red Menace” (TM) could reproduce what the Russians and the Americans could do now. If, as Coastal Ron so rightly points out, there was any benefit to the costs involved. Which there aren’t. So they won’t.”

They will. Ron is wrong.

Americans have always been quicksodic. The Chinese less so. The perception of national prestige is priceless, be it American, Russian.. or Chinese. It’s not a matter of economic-cost/benefit analysis, it’s a matter of national prestige for a country largely left behind for the first half of the 20th century. Don’t kid yourself. A circumlunar manned flight in this era would be an impressive event for Red China and enhance their position as an emerging superpower on both an economical and technical front. The fact Americans may react by simply saying they did it fifty years ago will fall on deaf ears to a dumbed down generation of Americans living in the now, today, increasingly accepting being second, third, tenth or last in the world in number of areas. Space is no different.

For the short time I have been visiting and/or posting on this site, it seems like that is all people do, make assumptions about others.

That said, I am free to comment and interject my interpretation of those comments as anyone else. I simply highlighted, in general, comments that I believe were rather naive in some cases and cavalier in others. Also note that I called no particular person or post out in general with respect to this issue so, in other words, do not try to lecture me.

You can comment all you like, Mike. I am just as free as you to point out that your interpretations, in this case, missed the mark. You took a scattershot approach that I thought was uncalled for instead of debating any actual points that people raised.

“A circumlunar manned flight in this era would be an impressive event for Red China”

It would, but that doesn’t mean that they are doing their own crash program to do it as quickly as possible. In fact evidence points to the a very methodical space program, without an urgency to accomplish any particular capability. They could take 10 years to actually do it.

And if they do a circumlunar manned flight, then we can congratulate them for following in our footsteps 50 or 60 years after we did it. Next crisis.

Personally I’ll be more concerned when some nation (or company) starts sending lots of robotic missions to the Moon, especially mobile ones that are ISRU precursor-type. That is where I think the next big space race will be held, and not manned missions.

@Coastal Ron; It matters NOT what you were capable of doing 50 or 60 years ago; it’s what you’re capable of doing in the Here & Now! What if Obama’s stupid asteroid mission really happens, and then NOBODY ELSE repeats the stunt for another 40 or so years?? Does America just say “So what!”; and then do nothing but boring LEO circles over & over, business-as-usual??! These Anti-Moon people really need a reality check! Plus an attitude change, that recognizes the important technological contributions that a Lunar Return will give us! Again, I tell you, there will be NO bases emplaced on ANY astronomical body, after that dumb, pointless manned asteroid stunt!! Oh yeah, we’ll sure make the Guiness Book of World Records, though; but just where does that leave us, in the quest for emplacing manned installations on another world??

“What if Obama’s stupid asteroid mission really happens, and then NOBODY ELSE repeats the stunt for another 40 or so years?? Does America just say “So what!””

That could happen. That is certainly what happened with the Moon.

And you know what? There are no demonstrations in the streets about sending astronauts back to the Moon. There are no politicians leading the charge to spend $100B+ to send a few astronauts back to the Moon.

You’re part of the minority of U.S. citizens that seems to be offended by what Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton and Obama have not done. Heck, even Bush 43 was not enthusiastic enough about the Moon program to fully fund it.

The Moon will be important when there is a need for it, and there is currently no need for it. Get over it.

if you don’t like the status quo, then I suggest you start with your U.S. Representative and two Senators, and get them to back a full-fledged manned Moon program. Or you can collect your own set of investors and do it privately. But otherwise, just like the saying goes:

The next Congress is likely to institute austerity measures to cut discretionary spending

The recently unveiled Republican proposal would cut and cap the NASA budget going forward about 20%. And the probable new Speaker, Rep. Boehner, will steer more NASA pork into Ohio research, so the cut to the rest of NASA will be even bigger than that. Meaning quite probably bye-bye to HLV _and_ “Commercial” Crew. Quite certainly to HLV, the only question being how many other programs HLV will eat alive in the meantime.

Astronaut fans can of course daydream of big rockets, big NASA budget increases, the crucial role of the ISS in national security, He3 mining on the moon, astronauts landing on Mars, and any other fantasy they like. After all space is made out of magic pixie dust which repeals the laws of economics as soon as you leave the atmosphere.

Ferris Valyn wrote @ October 9th, 2010 at 2:17 pm [….(NOTE, that doesn’t mean that President Obama wants to cancel human spaceflight – its just not in his top ten most important things, much like previous presidents)……]

————————
Top 10? How many does he have?

Ronald Reagan focused on 3:

Collapsing the USSR, lowering taxes (economic expansion) and reducing the size of government (2 out of 3 is a good score). He also focused on national inspiration and national security through space efforts – – Space Station Freedom (deliver assets to LEO) and SDI (remembering our demonstrated ability to land men on the Moon, the soviets spent themselves into oblivion trying to match our push for a space based defense).

And that is my interpretation of your comment, Mike. It came across as being very passive-aggressive, precisely because you made such a sweeping and nebulous statement about your combination of amusement and fear at your interpretation of the remarks others had made without at all making your case for who is so ready to “embrace” China without safeguards or preconditions.

You obviously believe that to be true, otherwise you wouldn’t be defending your right to your interpretation so strongly. I would just like to see you actually make the case for why you believe it to be true. Otherwise, it’s a strawman argument, at best.

Your grasping at straws. It was a comment. It is not a “strawman arguement”. I am also amused that you are being so aggressive. As for making “the case”, I already did that above and now I understand better why you are saying what you are saying. I’m obviously striking close to home.

Either way, this back and forth has become rather silly over a general comment and you should probably just let it go. I plan on enjoying my Sunday.

And I plan on enjoying eviscerating an expendable, shuttle derived, SRB powered, NASA heavy lift launch vehicle program over the next five years, with the same enthusiasm and gusto that I did over the last five years tearing down the Constellation program and the Ares I. It’s gonna be great fun, Mike.

“He also focused on national inspiration and national security through space efforts – – Space Station Freedom (deliver assets to LEO) and SDI”

So what is it Anne? Did Reagan focus on 3 or 5? Or do you have more you want to add to this irrelevant comparison?

I voted for Reagan – twice. Nice guy, and he did some good stuff, but I’m not ready to canonize him, and I don’t drink the Kool-Aid about how he singlehandedly took down the USSR. By any measure, he helped create the fiscal mess we’re in now, and even though it played a part in the collapse of the USSR, we’re still paying the bills decades later.

Obama, whether you like him or not, was not handed a well running economy when he took over, and the previous President (“he who must not be named”) also left us in two foreign wars. If you only want him to focus on one of two things, that’s fine, but I think there is more that our leaders should be working on.

How often do you think something related to the economy goes through the oval office? Both now, and in the 80s when Reagan was president.

How often do you think something related to China went through the oval office, now, and then?

We can go down the list, and contrary to how we may want to believe otherwise, the 20-30 different issues that create major issues within a presidential administration, most aren’t really related to space.

Things like jobs, trade sanction, fiscal policy, middle east policy, terrorism, and so on get discussed more frequent than space policy, in any white house.

And one other thing – if you really think it was Reagan who single-handedly beat the Soviet Union, then that is a very extreme view of history. And it ignores a lot of the history.

Ferris Valyn wrote @ October 10th, 2010 at 1:32 pm [………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..And one other thing – if you really think it was Reagan who single-handedly beat the Soviet Union, then that is a very extreme view of history. And it ignores a lot of the history.]

President Ronald Reagan, Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and Pope John Paul II brought down communism (although communism really is a sinister system and was just waiting to be brought down).

@Coastal Ron, on his reply back to me;….I already have sent fax letters to my representatives in Congress. But it seems to me clearly, that the Democrats are a bunch of wusses who care for nothing but building a giant socialist welfare state, and they want no part in this country actually doing something majestic & great ever again. The Republicans are the main hope right now, of keeping America strong, technologically powerful, and capable of grandeur acheivements. I firmly believe that if a Republican had been in the White House, instead of Barack Obama, that this sell out to the commercial space lobby would never have taken place. All private companies are going to deliver is access to LEO, which gives humanity nothing in terms of eventually leaving it. I totally despise this move to do a manned asteroid mission! It serves only the purpose of avoiding dealing with the Moon. It makes not one iota of engineering sense to toss astronauts on an interplanetary trajectory, and have them rely on only the supplies that they’ve brought on-board, and encase them in such severely cramped quarters; without first testing these systems on an extended Lunar mission. Constellation:Phase One, called for a Lunar flights interlude; something akin to the Gemini Project’s intermediate goal accomplishments. THIS kind of enterprise is what will prepare us for the rigors of manned far-deep space flight. NOT further decades hovering in Low Earth Orbit! LEO is far too easy & unchallenging enough! We need to have a better goal in space, other than the blandness of merry-go-rounding about the Earth!

But it seems to me clearly, that the Democrats are a bunch of wusses who care for nothing but building a giant socialist welfare state, and they want no part in this country actually doing something majestic & great ever again.

Actually, I’m in awe of a $14 trillion dollar national debt, and I look forward to it approaching 20 trillion dollars soon. If that isn’t greatness, nothing is.

We need to have a better goal in space, other than the blandness of merry-go-rounding about the Earth!

Go for it. Please don’t come back, thanks. It would be worth another 10 billion and five years after the first 10 billion and five years to get rid of you people, but many are suspicious that you can pull it off anymore.

Hopefully you write letters better than blog posts, otherwise you’ll end up on some sort of watch list.

However, until you can convince your congressional representatives of the noble effort it is to mount a sustained expedition to the Moon, you are a failure. Because without congressional interest and support, they will never allocate the $100B+ you need just so you can make “air” on the Moon.

Like others have pointed out, you keep making declarative statements and then changing them. Maybe you should change your wording to something like “they were instrumental”, or “I think his 3 strongest goals were”. That way you won’t have to keep being corrected.

C.R. Keith wrote @ October 9th, 2010 at 6:39 pm
“Americans have always been quicksodic. [quixotic?] The Chinese less so.”
Sweeping generalisation or what!
Evidence.
OTOH
“His [Mao Zedong’s] quixotic crusades may have killed more people than the mass exterminations of Hitler and Stalin combined.”http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=61&catid=2&subcatid=5

“for a country largely left behind for the first half of the 20th century”
Er it was fighting a civil war for most of that period which only stopped when the Japanese invaded! Then it started again. Then there was the cultural revolution and various other social experiments. Still ongoing! IMHO.
Hong Kong: a very British Trojan Horse!

“A circumlunar manned flight in this era would be an impressive event for Red China.”

I’m impressed by two successful Moon Probes in quick succession. But then I am easily impressed.
However what is really impressive is China’s investment in the future:
High Speed Rail
New Electric Automotive Industry
Solar Power Plant building program
Nuclear Power Plant building program
etc.
From what I understand they will be mass producing the Shenzhou, now that the design is largely finalised.
But the program will probably mimic the InterKosmos era. With visits to an all-Chinese “Heavenly Palace!”
There’s nothing like offering a space ride to some lucky overseas taiko as part part of a big trade deal…

The studies to date: Explore NOW and HEFT suggest that proximity TeleOps could be used to ground truth Robotic Operations so that future explorations won’t need humans. Just like Lunokhod and perhaps Robonaut, equally prove that the Moon can also be explored and exploited without humans. Although the Moon is a heck of a lot easier as a working environment if the current theory about 21 Lutetia pans out.

LEO might be “boring” to you but the fact that there are now six people working in orbit is pretty exciting to someone who remembers that a year or more could pass before anyone was in orbit. Then there was the last “Gap.” Six years! At least we had the Russians and their Soyuz space taxi service. Then as Now.

“These Anti-Moon people really need a reality check!”
Anti Moon: No! Anti wasteful HSF Moonbase program that leads to nowhere: Yes.
As I and _many_ others have pointed out, on any number of occasions, a Moon Base does not provide any useful precursor Technology demonstration apart from building a … Moon Base.

But OK. Name one *technological* contribution that a Lunar Return will provide.

“Again, I tell you, there will be NO bases emplaced on ANY astronomical body, after that dumb, pointless manned asteroid stunt!!”

….What’s the significance of the launch of the Chang’e-2 satellite? How should China develop its space exploration? People’s Daily Online (PO) talked to Yu Dengyun (Yu), deputy chief designer of Chinese lunar exploration program, on these issues.

[snip] Yu: China started lunar exploration at a comparatively late date. The US and the former Soviet Union launched the first round of lunar exploration.
In the 21st century, the world’s enthusiasm for lunar exploration is heating up and many countries have been inspired to explore space, such as the US, the European Space Agency, and our neighbors Japan and India.

They are not only carrying out lunar exploration, but deep space exploration. Japan has made great progress in space exploration. It has launched lunar probes, Mars probes, asteroid probes and Venus probes.

How should we develop our space exploration? I think our space development plan should be based on our national situation. Of course, we need to take other countries’ development conditions into consideration, but our national situation is more important. We should take an independent way to explore the moon and space.

brobof wrote @ October 10th, 2010 at 11:32 pm [ ….As I have said before the Moon is a DEAD END. Follow the Water: Oh look 65 Cybele: Water discovered on second asteroid, may be more common than thought]

And where is that “watery” asteroid?

Here’s the answer:

“….The researchers analyzed the sunlight bouncing off 65 Cybele, which has a diameter of about 180 miles (290 kilometers) and circles the sun in the asteroid belt between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter. …”

Who would believe, after giving it even a modicum of thought, that it’s better to bypass the Moon because an asteroid circling the sun between Mars and Jupiter has, “..telltale signatures of water ice and complex organic solids on the space rock’s surface..” ?

Anne, from the very same article. (WWW WARNING Your link is to a page with a Trojan BTW. Thanks Avast!)
“Many scientists had thought asteroids in this part of the belt were too close to the sun to carry water ice.”

I confronted Dr Spudis with my calculations of the total Lunar water (Hydrogen) reserves using his figures. His lack of response confirms my assertion. There is not sufficient water (Hydrogen) for any significant Lunar Development ie Colony until after we start to exploit the asteroids. Since there are many asteroids that are closer in terms of delta-V than the surface of the Moon and since that exploitation is more realistically carried out by robotics; the conclusion I draw is that by bypassing the Moon we actually accelerate the timescale of our mutual goal of colonising the Solar System.

I would merely add in passing that the geopolitical objections to exploiting the vast numbers of asteroids may be less fraught than exploiting the limited polar reserves of our singular Moon.

How should we develop our space exploration? I think our space development plan should be based on our national situation. Of course, we need to take other countries’ development conditions into consideration, but our national situation is more important. We should take an independent way to explore the moon and space.

Anne Spudis wrote @ October 10th, 2010 at 4:29 pm
“President Ronald Reagan, Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and Pope John Paul II brought down communism (although communism really is a sinister system and was just waiting to be brought down).” This is simply inaccurate and the kind of jingo right wing babble one would expect from the AEI. And with respect to America, does a disservice to every U.S. administration since Truman who battled Soviet communism on Earth of in the heavens. And, of course, ‘communism’ is alive and well– and thriving in Red China, a communist country currently propping up capitalism in the U.S. With respect to the space program, the damage done to it by the Reagan administation’s foolish proposal to turn a superb R&D organization into a ‘profit center,’ like the post office was quite literally disasterous. Conservatism remains a threat to American advancments in space activities.

Anne Spudis wrote @ October 11th, 2010 at 9:05 am
It’s not research. It was, as I said, a simple calculation. But don’t take my word for it! I invite you to calculate, given the well publicised figure by you know who, just how many cubic km of water there is.
Then find a reservoir with that capacity.
That is a simple measure of the supported population. Like the reservoir I cite: Windermere, I reserve a deal of the water for recreational use!

Alas the paper you cite does not appear to give any estimate as to the quantity of water on the Moon and is therefore irrelevant to the discussion. I would add that the cited data MAY disprove Campbell et al but I remain unconvinced that all that famous Clementine CPR is water ice. As Dr Spudis has admitted, we won’t know until we ground truth the observed data. I would strongly contend that much of the hydrogen will be in the form of simple or even complex hydrocarbons; mixed in with cyanogen, cyanide and other unpleasantness. As I commented to Dr Spudis it may well be that the cometary deposits will be of greater value to science as a long term record of Lunar impactors and Cometary activity than as a cheap source of rocket fuel.
If there is one commodity that ought to be regarded as ‘Common Heritage’ it is Lunar Hydrogen. The Isp of Nanoparticulate Aluminium and LUNOX is more than adequate to the purpose. /rant

Until the robots build the Mass Driver…

I would finish by returning to elaborate on a previous contention. That sending humans to probably the coldest spot in the solar system remains a non starter and most robotic TeleOps can be carried out from Earth.

A ProxOps polar sample return mission to a circling CEV or international DSV (1) might be amusing conceit though.

Does China even *want* ‘cooperation with he US?’ (or any other Western nation?) That assumption seems to be a given in almost every message here. Bolden’s going there does not, in and of itself, prove that. His reception may end up boiling down to; “Thank you for your interest, Administrator Bolden. When we’re also interested, we’ll be sure to let you know.”

Until and unless they do, this is much ado about nothing.

“REMEMBER, THEY’RE STILL COMMIES:”

Correct. And we should be cautious, for reasons Ferris Valyn has already pointed out.

Still, the more capable Soviet-Commies (and as of this writing, the still-more-capable-than-China Russians) never made it to the Moon, either…

And if they try to do it in an unsustainable Apollo/Constellation-esq, way, I still won’t worry. That’s hardly dominating cisclunar space

They *have* said they want a space station (their own, now mind you…any visits to ISS there might be [and know they don’t currently use international docking mechanisms], would only be for the appearance of parity). See if they start there and do some serious orbital infrastructure building, of the sort we should’ve been doing long ago (but…but…that means going ’round and round in LEO!’) and may finally be about to, and maybe *then* you should worry…

@ Frank Glover…. Look dude, if China so much as flies an Apollo 8-type of mission, and gets clear out of LEO, they will completely leave us in the dust at the starting gate, and WILL BE A SPACE SUPERPOWER!! Cislunar space will belong to them; period. We haven’t done jack in deep space since December of 1972! I wasn’t even alive then! You know what?—I freaking pray that China gets on with it!! Godspeed to the Chinese, if they can finally stir up a new space race with the U.S.! I hope this bland & boring LEO station interlude is as short as possible, and that they get started on some tangible Lunar initiative; by say, 2020. The Chinese flag planted on Luna firma, with the promise of more extended operations than the last Apollo mission—some 50 years ago in time, by then—will be dynamically exciting to see. Maybe then, America will finally do something, other than endlessly low orbiting the Earth!

“if China so much as flies an Apollo 8-type of mission, and gets clear out of LEO, they will completely leave us in the dust at the starting gate, and WILL BE A SPACE SUPERPOWER!”

Oh, is that the definition of a space superpower? To fly an Apollo 8-type mission around the Moon? Wow, the standards have really been lowered.

“Cislunar space will belong to them; period.”

Yes, and I’m sure they will have such a large spacecraft, that we won’t be able to get by it without paying a toll. Maybe they’ll have a duty free shop?

How did such a young guy like you become so obsessed with cold war paradigms? I’m a Gen-X’er, and actually lived with the real fears of communism and nuclear war, and all I can say is that the big countries are much less confrontational now than 30 years ago. If anything, China is exporting capitalism, not communism.

And as far as the Moon goes, no one is rushing to get there. Let’s talk again when the Chinese get their Long March 5 rocket operational (their Delta IV Heavy competitor), which is supposed to be around 2014.

Yes, Coastal Ron, the standards HAVE been lowered…TO A MERE 200 or 300 miles up!!! Under Obama’s leadership, and with commercial space companies exclusively running the show, this is ALL that the U.S. of A. will be doing for the next 20 years!!

“Under Obama’s leadership, and with commercial space companies exclusively running the show, this is ALL that the U.S. of A. will be doing for the next 20 years!”

I hate to break it to you, but the President proposes, and Congress disposes. In other words, Congress creates the laws and appropriations, and the President approves or rejects them. So you see, the plans we have today may be influenced by the President, but Congress created them, and overwhelmingly approves of them. How’s that for democracy!

As far as “commercial space companies exclusively running the show”, you seem to wallow in your ignorance, so I guess I won’t try and change that.