How many wins and podiums have Renault had in the hybrid era as opposed to Honda?

Why do you think that Honda have more potential to succeed than Renault?

When and if Honda produce a competitive engine, I can't see it for next year, the hybrid era will be about over.

McLaren want to win.

McLaren with a Renault engine will be up against the Renault team, and in Red Bull a team that acted as the de-facto Renault team for a long time. They will need to beat a team who can build a car around the engine and run the latest updates, and also a team who can afford to spend much more than they can. What do you think of their chances?

The partnership with Honda was all about being the de-facto works team. They knew they couldn't compete with Mercedes as a customer. Honda went so wrong that it seems a mistake, but their reality otherwise is basically aiming to be the best of the rest. They will not win a WDC unless they find themselves as the works team, or the de-facto works team.

How do Red Bull factor into this rationale? Can't see anyone saying they are a 2nd tier team and yet they are a customer team to an manufacturer. More complicated that that of course, but customer does not always equate to never winning.

It's an anti-manufacturer stance.

lol, so it is a political statement by Red Bull? Am I reading that right? If so, that seems a bit far fetched for Red Bull. The only real advantage that a manufacturer team has is early specifications of the engine so they can design the chassis around it. All other advantages are generally nullified through the contract of supply (e.g. later spec engines)

If McLaren can get a chassis that is as good as Mercedes and an engine that is reasonably powered compared to Mercedes and put in a top tier driver, they will be in with a chance to win, regardless of their status as a customer - just like Red Bull have on many occasions.

I certainly understand that Honda has not provided winning power. Nevertheless, I fail to see how putting Renault power in the back of the car will change that. I also fail to see how becoming another "customer" is going to solve the original problem - the perception that customer powered teams will always be at a disadvantage to the manufacturer's own team. Mercedes supplies other teams. Ferrari supplies other teams. I do not remember any of their customers winning a single race in the current PU era. Renault is slowly rebuilding its own team. When (if) it gets its own chassis up to scratch, I am sure its customer teams will also come second. Has McLaren become so desperate that it is willing to forego millions of dollars and the possibility of a winning future just so it has a shot at a podium or a lucky win in the short term? That is very short sighted thinking IMHO.

The Honda company of today is in some ways very different than it was back in its F1 glory days, but in other ways it is the same. It is a proud company that wants to win and do it all in house; a company that will doggedly pursue its own technology. It is also a company that is willing to try and fail on the way to being successful. It has never failed to produce a good engine when given enough time. People forget how bad its first turbo engines were in 1983 (Spirit-Honda anyone?). Even Honda's last F1 engines in 2008 were quite good. It makes leading engines if other series, including Indy cars.

The point is that Honda is going to get there. Their initial compound turbo inside the engine V concept was a failure that held them back, but the Honda PU will eventually catch Mercedes at the top of the learning curve. Maybe not for another year or even two, but prior to the end of the current power unit regulations in 2021, Honda powered cars are going to be fighting for wins and championships. I still remember an interview with a Honda engineer back in 1986 or 1987 when the Williams-Honda FW11 was dominating. He revealed that the company was running and testing engines 24/7 to make them "more reliable." Changes in corporate ideology are slow, but Honda has already broken its closed culture to bring in outside expertise. They are going to take that assistance and run with it. It's a huge company that takes racing very seriously.

I fear McLaren is going to look foolish in a couple years struggling for podiums and losing to the Renault factory team while Honda powered cars are fighting for wins.

How many wins and podiums have Renault had in the hybrid era as opposed to Honda?

Why do you think that Honda have more potential to succeed than Renault?

When and if Honda produce a competitive engine, I can't see it for next year, the hybrid era will be about over.

McLaren want to win.

McLaren with a Renault engine will be up against the Renault team, and in Red Bull a team that acted as the de-facto Renault team for a long time. They will need to beat a team who can build a car around the engine and run the latest updates, and also a team who can afford to spend much more than they can. What do you think of their chances?

Considering that Red Bull is pretty much crushing the works Renault team I think their chances are quite good.

This is the death of McLaren as a top team. They should never have split from Mercedes. Basically they will be nothing more than a customer team (and a customer for the worst engine manufacturer). They will be hard pressed to produce a better package than the works team or the top Renault customer (Red Bull). This seems like a desperation move just to simply get back into the points. It's very sad really. 5 years ago they had one of the best cars and 2 top drivers. Now they have a top driver who is frantically looking for the door and a car that hasn't finished on the podium since they signed with Honda.

As dark as times got with that Honda engine, I still think Honda was their only path to potentially being at the front again. Now they will be resigned to the same fate as Williams at long last...

There is an engine reset in 2021 so in the short term McLaren probably have made the right decision.

In the short term it brings them to the front of the midfield. Is this really the sum of their ambitions now? I think this alleged deal sends out the wrong signals regarding McLaren's long term ambitions and will actually be counter-productive in the long run. I can't see any positives to take from this for McLaren, I really can't

How do Red Bull factor into this rationale? Can't see anyone saying they are a 2nd tier team and yet they are a customer team to an manufacturer. More complicated that that of course, but customer does not always equate to never winning.

I think once the Renault factory team are up to speed in a year or two (they admit themselves, they are not there yet), the dynamic will most likely change. At that point I expect to see Red Bull start to suffer by being a customer team. At the moment, it serves Renault better to be ensuring RB get the best possible engines (which are still 3rd best out of 4...).

I bet if you offered RB a works deal with a new engine supplier, they'd jump at the chance.

How many wins and podiums have Renault had in the hybrid era as opposed to Honda?

Why do you think that Honda have more potential to succeed than Renault?

When and if Honda produce a competitive engine, I can't see it for next year, the hybrid era will be about over.

McLaren want to win.

McLaren with a Renault engine will be up against the Renault team, and in Red Bull a team that acted as the de-facto Renault team for a long time. They will need to beat a team who can build a car around the engine and run the latest updates, and also a team who can afford to spend much more than they can. What do you think of their chances?

Considering that Red Bull is pretty much crushing the works Renault team I think their chances are quite good.

The works Renault team have just turned to the sport, and are clearly at the beginning of their project. Let's also not forget their customer was the defacto works team, most likely have contracts stipulating as such, had the chance to build their car around the current Renault engine, and Renault aren't going to be too concerned about gaining an advantage over them just yet given where they are in their own project.

McLaren would not only need to beat the works Renault team, they'd need to beat a Red Bull team with much more money to throw at F1 than they do.

This is the death of McLaren as a top team. They should never have split from Mercedes. Basically they will be nothing more than a customer team (and a customer for the worst engine manufacturer). They will be hard pressed to produce a better package than the works team or the top Renault customer (Red Bull). This seems like a desperation move just to simply get back into the points. It's very sad really. 5 years ago they had one of the best cars and 2 top drivers. Now they have a top driver who is frantically looking for the door and a car that hasn't finished on the podium since they signed with Honda.

As dark as times got with that Honda engine, I still think Honda was their only path to potentially being at the front again. Now they will be resigned to the same fate as Williams at long last...

There is an engine reset in 2021 so in the short term McLaren probably have made the right decision.

In the short term it brings them to the front of the midfield. Is this really the sum of their ambitions now? I think this alleged deal sends out the wrong signals regarding McLaren's long term ambitions and will actually be counter-productive in the long run. I can't see any positives to take from this for McLaren, I really can't

That's because you choose not to look. Red Bull are absolutely crushing the works Renault team. Had there been a few more laps at Monza, a Red Bull would have breezed past the top Ferrari driver. There is no way in hell a Honda powered car is going to do any of this in the next 3 years. No. Chance. At. All.

McLaren need positive results. They have owners, investors, and employees to take care of. Just look at how tiddled off Alonso is. I bet any money that there are engineers inside McLaren that are absolutely furious at how far this team has fallen. I bet even more that some of them have left. Talent walking out the door, because they see no hope at all as long as their designs are tied to the future of the feckless Honda engine.

Honda has been an absolute disaster for McLaren. It will take years to recover from this debacle.

How many wins and podiums have Renault had in the hybrid era as opposed to Honda?

Why do you think that Honda have more potential to succeed than Renault?

When and if Honda produce a competitive engine, I can't see it for next year, the hybrid era will be about over.

McLaren want to win.

McLaren with a Renault engine will be up against the Renault team, and in Red Bull a team that acted as the de-facto Renault team for a long time. They will need to beat a team who can build a car around the engine and run the latest updates, and also a team who can afford to spend much more than they can. What do you think of their chances?

Considering that Red Bull is pretty much crushing the works Renault team I think their chances are quite good.

The works Renault team have just turned to the sport, and are clearly at the beginning of their project. Let's also not forget their customer was the defacto works team, most likely have contracts stipulating as such, had the chance to build their car around the current Renault engine, and Renault aren't going to be too concerned about gaining an advantage over them just yet given where they are in their own project.

McLaren would not only need to beat the works Renault team, they'd need to beat a Red Bull team with much more money to throw at F1 than they do.

I have no doubt that a McLaren powered by Renault will give Red Bull a nice challenge. No doubt at all.

This is the death of McLaren as a top team. They should never have split from Mercedes. Basically they will be nothing more than a customer team (and a customer for the worst engine manufacturer). They will be hard pressed to produce a better package than the works team or the top Renault customer (Red Bull). This seems like a desperation move just to simply get back into the points. It's very sad really. 5 years ago they had one of the best cars and 2 top drivers. Now they have a top driver who is frantically looking for the door and a car that hasn't finished on the podium since they signed with Honda.

As dark as times got with that Honda engine, I still think Honda was their only path to potentially being at the front again. Now they will be resigned to the same fate as Williams at long last...

There is an engine reset in 2021 so in the short term McLaren probably have made the right decision.

In the short term it brings them to the front of the midfield. Is this really the sum of their ambitions now? I think this alleged deal sends out the wrong signals regarding McLaren's long term ambitions and will actually be counter-productive in the long run. I can't see any positives to take from this for McLaren, I really can't

How do Red Bull factor into this rationale? Can't see anyone saying they are a 2nd tier team and yet they are a customer team to an manufacturer. More complicated that that of course, but customer does not always equate to never winning.

I think once the Renault factory team are up to speed in a year or two (they admit themselves, they are not there yet), the dynamic will most likely change. At that point I expect to see Red Bull start to suffer by being a customer team. At the moment, it serves Renault better to be ensuring RB get the best possible engines (which are still 3rd best out of 4...).

I bet if you offered RB a works deal with a new engine supplier, they'd jump at the chance.

The Renault team is not a start up. They were Lotus before being bought by Renault and so have experience. Your point is highly overrated.

How many wins and podiums have Renault had in the hybrid era as opposed to Honda?

Why do you think that Honda have more potential to succeed than Renault?

When and if Honda produce a competitive engine, I can't see it for next year, the hybrid era will be about over.

McLaren want to win.

McLaren with a Renault engine will be up against the Renault team, and in Red Bull a team that acted as the de-facto Renault team for a long time. They will need to beat a team who can build a car around the engine and run the latest updates, and also a team who can afford to spend much more than they can. What do you think of their chances?

The partnership with Honda was all about being the de-facto works team. They knew they couldn't compete with Mercedes as a customer. Honda went so wrong that it seems a mistake, but their reality otherwise is basically aiming to be the best of the rest. They will not win a WDC unless they find themselves as the works team, or the de-facto works team.

Honda have only 3 years left to get it right, who's betting on them to do that, and even then what are the chances of it being the out and out best engine?

I can't see that for next year, can you?

Maybe McLaren get a decent engine for 1 or 2 years max if they are lucky, that's a big gamble given Honda's past performance for little reward.

McLaren were a customer team for 3 years before the hybrids came in and were one of the top teams, they could afford to compete at the level of Red Bull back then, why not now?

This is the death of McLaren as a top team. They should never have split from Mercedes. Basically they will be nothing more than a customer team (and a customer for the worst engine manufacturer). They will be hard pressed to produce a better package than the works team or the top Renault customer (Red Bull). This seems like a desperation move just to simply get back into the points. It's very sad really. 5 years ago they had one of the best cars and 2 top drivers. Now they have a top driver who is frantically looking for the door and a car that hasn't finished on the podium since they signed with Honda.

As dark as times got with that Honda engine, I still think Honda was their only path to potentially being at the front again. Now they will be resigned to the same fate as Williams at long last...

There is an engine reset in 2021 so in the short term McLaren probably have made the right decision.

In the short term it brings them to the front of the midfield. Is this really the sum of their ambitions now? I think this alleged deal sends out the wrong signals regarding McLaren's long term ambitions and will actually be counter-productive in the long run. I can't see any positives to take from this for McLaren, I really can't

How do Red Bull factor into this rationale? Can't see anyone saying they are a 2nd tier team and yet they are a customer team to an manufacturer. More complicated that that of course, but customer does not always equate to never winning.

It's an anti-manufacturer stance.

I know it is impossible to make prediction. But at best they will top tier2 team. TBH I really doubt they will be even get to 4th anyways. Renault should be better next year. FI always does well in mid-field and Williams, STR, Haas are unpredictable.

I certainly understand that Honda has not provided winning power. Nevertheless, I fail to see how putting Renault power in the back of the car will change that. I also fail to see how becoming another "customer" is going to solve the original problem - the perception that customer powered teams will always be at a disadvantage to the manufacturer's own team. Mercedes supplies other teams. Ferrari supplies other teams. I do not remember any of their customers winning a single race in the current PU era. Renault is slowly rebuilding its own team. When (if) it gets its own chassis up to scratch, I am sure its customer teams will also come second. Has McLaren become so desperate that it is willing to forego millions of dollars and the possibility of a winning future just so it has a shot at a podium or a lucky win in the short term? That is very short sighted thinking IMHO.

The Honda company of today is in some ways very different than it was back in its F1 glory days, but in other ways it is the same. It is a proud company that wants to win and do it all in house; a company that will doggedly pursue its own technology. It is also a company that is willing to try and fail on the way to being successful. It has never failed to produce a good engine when given enough time. People forget how bad its first turbo engines were in 1983 (Spirit-Honda anyone?). Even Honda's last F1 engines in 2008 were quite good. It makes leading engines if other series, including Indy cars.

The point is that Honda is going to get there. Their initial compound turbo inside the engine V concept was a failure that held them back, but the Honda PU will eventually catch Mercedes at the top of the learning curve. Maybe not for another year or even two, but prior to the end of the current power unit regulations in 2021, Honda powered cars are going to be fighting for wins and championships. I still remember an interview with a Honda engineer back in 1986 or 1987 when the Williams-Honda FW11 was dominating. He revealed that the company was running and testing engines 24/7 to make them "more reliable." Changes in corporate ideology are slow, but Honda has already broken its closed culture to bring in outside expertise. They are going to take that assistance and run with it. It's a huge company that takes racing very seriously.

I fear McLaren is going to look foolish in a couple years struggling for podiums and losing to the Renault factory team while Honda powered cars are fighting for wins.

The smaller teams can't compete against the manufacturer teams because of their budgets not the engines and in that respect it's no coincidence to see Red Bull as a customer team beating their own manufacturer.

In the short term it brings them to the front of the midfield. Is this really the sum of their ambitions now? I think this alleged deal sends out the wrong signals regarding McLaren's long term ambitions and will actually be counter-productive in the long run. I can't see any positives to take from this for McLaren, I really can't

How do Red Bull factor into this rationale? Can't see anyone saying they are a 2nd tier team and yet they are a customer team to an manufacturer. More complicated that that of course, but customer does not always equate to never winning.

I think once the Renault factory team are up to speed in a year or two (they admit themselves, they are not there yet), the dynamic will most likely change. At that point I expect to see Red Bull start to suffer by being a customer team. At the moment, it serves Renault better to be ensuring RB get the best possible engines (which are still 3rd best out of 4...).

I bet if you offered RB a works deal with a new engine supplier, they'd jump at the chance.

The Renault team is not a start up. They were Lotus before being bought by Renault and so have experience. Your point is highly overrated.

I'm well aware of the history of the Enstone team. They may well have been Lotus before and have experience, but they were also broke and couldn't keep up to date with their competitors - I'm sure you are aware of the financial troubles they had, which resulted them having their cars seized and being locked out of catering units.

Renault have basically have to play a couple of years worth of catch up. They've made good progress this year, but are still not there. I trust in Enstone, they'll return to the front, but not yet.

How do Red Bull factor into this rationale? Can't see anyone saying they are a 2nd tier team and yet they are a customer team to an manufacturer. More complicated that that of course, but customer does not always equate to never winning.

It's an anti-manufacturer stance.

lol, so it is a political statement by Red Bull? Am I reading that right? If so, that seems a bit far fetched for Red Bull. The only real advantage that a manufacturer team has is early specifications of the engine so they can design the chassis around it. All other advantages are generally nullified through the contract of supply (e.g. later spec engines)

If McLaren can get a chassis that is as good as Mercedes and an engine that is reasonably powered compared to Mercedes and put in a top tier driver, they will be in with a chance to win, regardless of their status as a customer - just like Red Bull have on many occasions.

Another interesting dynamic next year if deal comes off will be to see Alonso, Ricciardo, Verstappen, Vandoorne, Sainz and Hulkenberg all racing with the same engine to see how they all compare, chassis/aero differences permitting. For Alonso it will also be a partial return to his Renault roots so some karma symmetry for him there .

Right now IS NOT the right time to venture away from Honda and all their Milyuns… Aaaaand MILYUNS of the H's Money.With the current sponsorship climate in F1 being what it is, even the mighty McLaren has struggled to find a title sponsor and that honda money goes an EXTREMELY long way towards helping them continue on in the sport without being cash strapped. THAT is a huge commodity that no team can afford to do without. Leaving something that is iron clad which assures their existence for several years to come is far more important than winning and/or dominating.

With Porsche rumored to be heavily weighing on entering F1 as an engine supplier from 2021 on, it would be wise for McLaren to wait and see what may be a serious viable option. Afterall, Porsche is one of V-Dubs best and most established brands and the technology and experience they would brings would also include the sister brand who dominated WEC unlike any team has ever dominated in any sport the world over, and IF V-Dub decides to enter F1 in any capacity, I don't see how they hold back in any regard, so all technologies and proven systems will be pooled together to produce the absolute best product to enter the sport with.

They've already suffered the huge embarrassment of Emisionsgate that cost them hundreds of millions so I'd assume they would only want to enter F1 in the most positive of ways.

I say McLaren bides their time, makes due of a bad situation, keep a tight lip, and wait until 2020 before making a move. By then it's quite possible the Honda, given their new take on working philosophies, bringing in outside help just may get things going in the right direction. And if not, at least they'll have endured the long haul on Honda's buck rather than their own.

Right now IS NOT the right time to venture away from Honda and all their Milyuns… Aaaaand MILYUNS of the H's Money.With the current sponsorship climate in F1 being what it is, even the mighty McLaren has struggled to find a title sponsor and that honda money goes an EXTREMELY long way towards helping them continue on in the sport without being cash strapped. THAT is a huge commodity that no team can afford to do without. Leaving something that is iron clad which assures their existence for several years to come is far more important than winning and/or dominating.

With Porsche rumored to be heavily weighing on entering F1 as an engine supplier from 2021 on, it would be wise for McLaren to wait and see what may be a serious viable option. Afterall, Porsche is one of V-Dubs best and most established brands and the technology and experience they would brings would also include the sister brand who dominated WEC unlike any team has ever dominated in any sport the world over, and IF V-Dub decides to enter F1 in any capacity, I don't see how they hold back in any regard, so all technologies and proven systems will be pooled together to produce the absolute best product to enter the sport with.

They've already suffered the huge embarrassment of Emisionsgate that cost them hundreds of millions so I'd assume they would only want to enter F1 in the most positive of ways.

I say McLaren bides their time, makes due of a bad situation, keep a tight lip, and wait until 2020 before making a move. By then it's quite possible the Honda, given their new take on working philosophies, bringing in outside help just may get things going in the right direction. And if not, at least they'll have endured the long haul on Honda's buck rather than their own.

just my $0.02

Porsche is not coming (if at all) until 2021 when the new regs take effect. McLaren can't suffer that many more years of Honda "performance".

Right now IS NOT the right time to venture away from Honda and all their Milyuns… Aaaaand MILYUNS of the H's Money.With the current sponsorship climate in F1 being what it is, even the mighty McLaren has struggled to find a title sponsor and that honda money goes an EXTREMELY long way towards helping them continue on in the sport without being cash strapped. THAT is a huge commodity that no team can afford to do without. Leaving something that is iron clad which assures their existence for several years to come is far more important than winning and/or dominating.

With Porsche rumored to be heavily weighing on entering F1 as an engine supplier from 2021 on, it would be wise for McLaren to wait and see what may be a serious viable option. Afterall, Porsche is one of V-Dubs best and most established brands and the technology and experience they would brings would also include the sister brand who dominated WEC unlike any team has ever dominated in any sport the world over, and IF V-Dub decides to enter F1 in any capacity, I don't see how they hold back in any regard, so all technologies and proven systems will be pooled together to produce the absolute best product to enter the sport with.

They've already suffered the huge embarrassment of Emisionsgate that cost them hundreds of millions so I'd assume they would only want to enter F1 in the most positive of ways.

I say McLaren bides their time, makes due of a bad situation, keep a tight lip, and wait until 2020 before making a move. By then it's quite possible the Honda, given their new take on working philosophies, bringing in outside help just may get things going in the right direction. And if not, at least they'll have endured the long haul on Honda's buck rather than their own.

just my $0.02

Why not bide their time with Renault - can't be any worse, can it and if there is some success, they will be better position to negotiate with Porsche

Right now IS NOT the right time to venture away from Honda and all their Milyuns… Aaaaand MILYUNS of the H's Money.With the current sponsorship climate in F1 being what it is, even the mighty McLaren has struggled to find a title sponsor and that honda money goes an EXTREMELY long way towards helping them continue on in the sport without being cash strapped. THAT is a huge commodity that no team can afford to do without. Leaving something that is iron clad which assures their existence for several years to come is far more important than winning and/or dominating.

With Porsche rumored to be heavily weighing on entering F1 as an engine supplier from 2021 on, it would be wise for McLaren to wait and see what may be a serious viable option. Afterall, Porsche is one of V-Dubs best and most established brands and the technology and experience they would brings would also include the sister brand who dominated WEC unlike any team has ever dominated in any sport the world over, and IF V-Dub decides to enter F1 in any capacity, I don't see how they hold back in any regard, so all technologies and proven systems will be pooled together to produce the absolute best product to enter the sport with.

They've already suffered the huge embarrassment of Emisionsgate that cost them hundreds of millions so I'd assume they would only want to enter F1 in the most positive of ways.

I say McLaren bides their time, makes due of a bad situation, keep a tight lip, and wait until 2020 before making a move. By then it's quite possible the Honda, given their new take on working philosophies, bringing in outside help just may get things going in the right direction. And if not, at least they'll have endured the long haul on Honda's buck rather than their own.

just my $0.02

Why not bide their time with Renault - can't be any worse, can it and if there is some success, they will be better position to negotiate with Porsche

its pretty much the same performance wise but only one is a works deal

What's pretty much the same performance wise?.

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

We don't need to look at any results really, the fact McLaren want to do it in the first place tells us absolutely everything about what the people who actually know both Renault(Via Mario Illien) and Honda's performance is think about it.

It has to be worlds apart or they wouldn't throw away works support, it's really that simple.

_________________"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

We don't need to look at any results really, the fact McLaren want to do it in the first place tells us absolutely everything about what the people who actually know both Renault(Via Mario Illien) and Honda's performance is think about it.

It has to be worlds apart or they wouldn't throw away works support, it's really that simple.

I said that many many many posts ago. All the rumors got REAL serious once Honda let Mario Illien into their camp to have a look. He must have been truly appalled at what he saw there.

You are 100% correct. McLaren would not throw away a works deal without an immense amount of consideration.

its pretty much the same performance wise but only one is a works deal

Which of the two engines has powered 36 podiums, including 6 wins.

I'll give you a clue: not Honda.

Which engine hasn't gone 5 races all season without failing?

Max Verstappen's Renault?

I'm being facetious of course. But let's not pretend a Renault engine is going to deliver McLaren a World Championship any time soon.

It's getting ridiculous here. NO ONE is staying Renault is going to delivery a WC to McLaren or Alonso anytime soon. No one. If anyone has said this, I've missed it entirely.

If Renault has a 10% chance of making McLaren successful, then Honda has a 0.0001% chance. It is an appallingly bad engine (and engineering team). Anything bad about Renault is a thousand times worse with Honda.

The fear that Honda goes to Torro Rosso, and then magically Red Bull has a works deal needs examining. It may appear unfair to Mclaren, but isn't Mclaren's lack of due diligence on picking an engine partner, and subsequent hands in pocket approach also partly to blame? If Red Bull gets that engine partner working all credit to them - can't hold it against them.

The fear that Honda goes to Torro Rosso, and then magically Red Bull has a works deal needs examining. It may appear unfair to Mclaren, but isn't Mclaren's lack of due diligence on picking an engine partner, and subsequent hands in pocket approach also partly to blame? If Red Bull gets that engine partner working all credit to them - can't hold it against them.

Hey, if Torro Rosso gets Honda to think straight and make a working engine then good for them! They would deserve every bit of credit possible for that result.

It's clear that we are split into 2 groups, with the only common ground being we all support Mclaren. ))

I'm not old but also not young anymore. I am curious what is the average age of those of us supporting staying with Honda, and the ones that support the split.

Maybe it's us older farts that can't understand that times move on.

I'm old enough to have watched Lauda, Prost, Senna, Hakkinen, and Hamilton all win championships with McLaren.

Who knows, i guess in less than 6 months we will know which was the good decision.

I see things in the following way : If Renault will evolve and get a competitive engine, so will Honda. This I have no doubt. I think there is a natural evolution. If the complexity is that big, none will, or only by a miracle one or both will get it right.

In reality it is probably somewhere in the middle. A bit of natural evolution + some extra effort, will get both engines close to Merc and Ferrari. Not necesarily there, but there or there about.

If the Honda engine will be 10hp down on power next year compared to Renault, it is still a bad deal, if they split with Honda.

How do Red Bull factor into this rationale? Can't see anyone saying they are a 2nd tier team and yet they are a customer team to an manufacturer. More complicated that that of course, but customer does not always equate to never winning.

It's an anti-manufacturer stance.

lol, so it is a political statement by Red Bull? Am I reading that right? If so, that seems a bit far fetched for Red Bull. The only real advantage that a manufacturer team has is early specifications of the engine so they can design the chassis around it. All other advantages are generally nullified through the contract of supply (e.g. later spec engines)

If McLaren can get a chassis that is as good as Mercedes and an engine that is reasonably powered compared to Mercedes and put in a top tier driver, they will be in with a chance to win, regardless of their status as a customer - just like Red Bull have on many occasions.