What if?

We've all pretty much agreed that while Utena lost the final duel with Akio, she won in the end, by bringing about revolution. But... what if it had happened the other way around? What if Utena managed to defeat Akio, live up to the Princely Ideal and become the next Prince? Would she end up like Akio? A poor imitation? How would Anthy feel about it? Would Akio have "died"?

I'm all for evil!Utena, quite personally.

And in addition to that, what other "What If's" have you always wondered about?

Edit: Haha, go me, breaking 2700.

Last edited by morosemocha (11-04-2007 12:36:51 AM)

The first time you looked at her curves you were hookedAnd the glances you took, took hold of you and demanded that you stayAnd sunk in their teeth, bit your heart and releasedSuch a charge that you need another touch, another taste, another fix

Re: What if?

I'm one of the few (maybe, even the only one?) that thinks that Utena did end up in the same kind of trouble that Dios did. She failed in a manner similar, but not exactly the same way. It's true that Dios saved things for the heck of it, while she tried to save a friend, but the failure is no less bitter because of it. So I think that instead of creating a world, she left, like a lonely wraith, to wander the Ends of the Earth, forever trying to atone for what she thinks she hasn't done.

Utena isn't one for creating worlds - she's too... Naive for that, possibly? How do you create a world when everything's so simple to you? At the end, of course, it's not nearly so simple in the beginning - but her general emotions seems to be "I've tried and failed at the most important thing in MY life". Emphasized for something that Dios didn't have - he didn't really even have an ego. So, I think that's why their predicaments would be rather different. Come, aid and disappear, possibly - winding up like Dios, but not like Akio. Yet. If Anthy gets to her on time, and is able to work with more elaborateness this time around.

My own "what if"... Heck, I'd like to see Ruka and Jury work together on the student council. Were they like Jury and Miki later on ('cause subjectively it seems to me that way)? What did their relationship look like? What would've happened had Jury sorted out her personal problems before, and should Ruka have remained on the council? Things like that, yes.

And, as a very personal "what if": I wonder what would have happened, should there have been a Magician archetype in here, instead of the combination of Devil and Witch? What would a Magician do inside an illusory world? Magicians are creatures who take apart and are taken apart, and then struggle to put everything they've done back together. What would a Magician and a Witch do together? Alternatives, alternatives..

"...But magic has a habit of lying low, like a rake in the grass." - T. Pratchett

Re: What if?

That's a really interesting question. I wonder, though, what Utena would have needed to do to win in the first place? I kinda doubt knocking a rose off End of the World's chest would have stopped him. Would Utena have had to kill Akio? Would she have to kill Anthy? Or even watch the Million Swords of Hate destroy either/both of them? In any of those scenarios, I think Utena would have freed the rest of the population of Ohtori Academy from the "coffin" they were trapped in, and perhaps even replace Dios as the prince archetype, but Utena herself might have become such an emotional wreck that... well, who knows? It might make a cool fanfic.

Werekat wrote:

My own "what if"... Heck, I'd like to see Ruka and Jury work together on the student council. Were they like Jury and Miki later on ('cause subjectively it seems to me that way)? What did their relationship look like? What would've happened had Jury sorted out her personal problems before, and should Ruka have remained on the council? Things like that, yes.

And, as a very personal "what if": I wonder what would have happened, should there have been a Magician archetype in here, instead of the combination of Devil and Witch? What would a Magician do inside an illusory world? Magicians are creatures who take apart and are taken apart, and then struggle to put everything they've done back together. What would a Magician and a Witch do together? Alternatives, alternatives..

I sort of imagine Ruka and Juri on the council acting a bit like Touga and Saionji: familiar but slightly antagonistic. Heck, the two pairs might get into quite a power struggle.

As for the Magician archetype, perhaps that role is already filled to an extent by the shadow play girls...? They seem like part of the illusion, but at the same time they seem to display the ability to disect and understand that illusion. Just a thought.

Re: What if?

OnionPrince wrote:

As for the Magician archetype, perhaps that role is already filled to an extent by the shadow play girls...? They seem like part of the illusion, but at the same time they seem to display the ability to disect and understand that illusion. Just a thought.

Fascinating.

While I'm not inclined toward EvilUtena myself, it's not that hard to imagine. Utena riding around on her horse, saving people all the time is an image that springs to mind pretty readily. The question of how or why she might end up as the Ends of the World kinda depends on how Akio got there. I can speculate on a few different scenarios, but I'm partial to the limitations argument. Dios wasn't infinite, and he got to the point where he couldn't help enough people...perhaps he failed spectacularly in one case? "The stone called 'It Was' cannot be moved"? And perhaps this was Akio's motivation to be a duelist? To seek the power of eternity, his own power, but without limits, to be able to save everyone again? Sorry, rambling there, but I could see something very similar happening to Utena, who also has a very hard time recognizing her own limitations, and doesn't cope with them well when they confront her. I could even see Wakaba trying to protect her and ending up as her Rose Bride, but Wakaba seems a little too grounded for that...actually, Wakaba's earthiness could even be the deciding factor that prevents Utena from becoming the Ends of the World in such a scenario. Or not.

"The devil want me as is, but god he want more."-Truck NorthHonorary Hat Mafia Member

Re: What if?

I have a hard, though entertaining, time with putting Utena in the Akio position. I just think that if she took the Million Swords upon herself, she gets to be the Eternal Pincushion...I mean, Rose Bride. Then Wakaba would have to duel to save her.

So yeah, Revolutionary Girl Wakaba.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever gonna make it home again.It's so far and out of sight.I really need someone to talk to and nobody elseKnows how to comfort me tonight.

Re: What if?

morosemocha wrote:

And in addition to that, what other "What If's" have you always wondered about?

Edit: Haha, go me, breaking 2700.

What if the Black Rose saga had not been wiped out of everyone's memory, how would the subsequent events unfold? I've always wondered whether Utena would have taken Mikage's lesson and realised that her memories too were less than accurate.

A "what if" question that I'd love to have answered, even if it might not serve much of a purpose in the series, is what would have happened if other duelists had brought about the revolution. I personally think that given the right circumstances any duelist could have achieved Utena's status of revolutionary. The student council lagged behind and Mikage's case is particular (it was either complete and absolute failure or it had some redemptive value) but had they been able to break free of their many constraints they too would have been revolutionary.

Re: What if?

Nocturnalux wrote:

What if the Black Rose saga had not been wiped out of everyone's memory, how would the subsequent events unfold?

I've always wondered the same things, but more about the other duelists. How would Miki have behaved around Kozue now? Would Juri see Shiori in the same light? Would Nanami have a newfound respect, or perhaps even fear of Mitsuru? But, most of all, I want to know what Utena would have done about Wakaba. Her duel just breaks my heart, and it really makes me upset with Utena that she does.. well, nothing. I mean, I know she only has about 3 more episodes with the knowledge, but directly before Mikage's duel Wakaba and Utena chat as they usually do, and it doesn't look like our prince has done a damn thing for her so-called dearest friend. Ranting aside, would Utena act any differently? Would she be able to treat the other duelists with a little more dignity knowing what they've gone through? Well, save for perhaps Touga and Saionji, I doubt her sympathy would go to them in the matter... From her little chat with Anthy after Shiori's duel though, I have to think that Utena doesn't fully understand the weight of what's going on around her.

(Wow, this post seems overly-critical of Utena. Sorry, I don't mean to insult her, I'm just having a hard time phrasing things well tonight.)

ah, man does not exist; ah, within the darkness; ah, the sound of the waves

Re: What if?

Oh, yes, the Mikage saga. I was always somewhat disappointed that everyone forgot - since Mikage is one of my three utmost favorites, and did quite a lot to influence Ohtori's life, it just seemed very unfair that he was forgotten. It was also curious that everyone forgot Utena in much the same way. I guess when you get close to revolution - whether you ascend or descend to it - the last game is sink or swim.

I'd say the Duelists do have some unconscious memory of what happened - they do treat the others... Somewhat differently for a time. And, possibly, this is part of what created the transformed Ohtori in the end.

As for Utena not doing anything about Wakaba... Heck. I don't know what I would have done, were I Utena. On a neighboring thread Brian talked about how hard it would be to be a person like Shiori, because what the heck do you do with unrequited love and lust? Same here. What do you do with a person who wants to be someone, and doesn't care whom, except try to give her a goal to actually do something and space to grow? I've no idea. If someone can enlighten me on the subject, I'd actually be grateful.

"...But magic has a habit of lying low, like a rake in the grass." - T. Pratchett

Re: What if?

I always wondered what would have happened if Nanami had been able to tell Utena what she'd seen Akio and Anthy doing. Would Utena have beleived her? Would she have been prepared for Anthy's betrayal at the end, or could she possibly have avoided it alltogether? Turned Anthy on Akio, even? The entire ending of the series might have been dramatically altered if Utena had been (as dollface metioned) less oblivious to what was going on around her.

I'm a fan of pessimism: if you maintain the lowest expectations possible, they'll always be met or exceeded.

Re: What if?

ArsenicForBreakfast wrote:

I always wondered what would have happened if Nanami had been able to tell Utena what she'd seen Akio and Anthy doing. Would Utena have beleived her? Would she have been prepared for Anthy's betrayal at the end, or could she possibly have avoided it alltogether? Turned Anthy on Akio, even? The entire ending of the series might have been dramatically altered if Utena had been (as dollface metioned) less oblivious to what was going on around her.

Well, Nanami did indirectly tell Utena in episode 32. "It gives those two an excuse to sleep together," "that perverted brother and sister," etc. Of course, Utena is still far too naive to believe what she's trying to say. (It's fairly common in Japan for family members to sleep next to each other, which is why Utena brushes it off so easily, though I find it hard to imagine many teenage girls who share futon space with their older brothers...)

If Nanami put it bluntly enough for her to understand it, I still don't think she would have believed her. As trusting as Utena is, Nanami's constant antagonism and attempts at sabotage probably don't put her in the most trustworthy light. Even if the trusting Utena took Nanami at her word, I'm not sure how much it would change. If Akio still needs to keep Utena fighting to save Anthy, or if he still feels like seducing her, he'd find a way. I bet there would have at least been more tension along the lines of the creepy tea & cookies scene, though.

Re: What if?

ArsenicForBreakfast wrote:

I always wondered what would have happened if Nanami had been able to tell Utena what she'd seen Akio and Anthy doing.

Yes, thank you!!! I wondered the exact same thing, "What would happen if Utena found out about this? Tell her, Nanami!" Then, the moment came when Utena herself walked in. I thought she would instantly pull her sword and duel!!! But no, morning comes and she wants a date!

But yes, I wonder what a more realistic reaction would have been like, how the ending have changed if any significant action took place at that point.

And I wonder what would happen when Akio goes to find Anthy. He would, he was startled enough when she decided to leave. At first, I thought it was a sign that Anthy was still somewhat attached to him, politely going into his office and laying down her things. But if she just left - it would have been like sneaking, running away. Going into the office to say, "It's over!" was a move signaling strength & detachment, facing that head on! For that reason, I don't think Akio would have a chance getting Anthy back, but I'd like to see him try... and fail! A little humiliation for that one, would be thrilling to watch! It would be a fascinating reaction, assuming it wasn't written as dull as Utena's reaction to a pivotal point!

As for Utena becoming a new prince, Anthy's reaction, and all that jazz - someone wrote a great fanfiction about just that! It's in EM fanfic section.

Just remember that the things you put into your head are there forever, he said. You might want to think about that. / You forget some things, don't you? / Yes. You forget what you want to remember and you remember what you want to forget.

Re: What if?

Frosty wrote:

ArsenicForBreakfast wrote:

I always wondered what would have happened if Nanami had been able to tell Utena what she'd seen Akio and Anthy doing.

Yes, thank you!!! I wondered the exact same thing, "What would happen if Utena found out about this? Tell her, Nanami!" Then, the moment came when Utena herself walked in. I thought she would instantly pull her sword and duel!!! But no, morning comes and she wants a date!

If anything, she might have been a bit more leery of Akio, and mistrusting him even a little bit would have helped.

I'm a fan of pessimism: if you maintain the lowest expectations possible, they'll always be met or exceeded.

Re: What if?

I'm firmly in the 'she would never have believed Nanami' camp...and even if she did, how would she investigate? I don't charge Utena with the intelligence or awareness to pick up even obvious signals that there's something off about their relationship. Would she have asked? Doubt it. 'HAY ANTHY ARE YOU FUCKING YOUR BROTHER BY ANY CHANCE' She'd have just written Nanami off. Which is easy to do what with Nanami's big brother complex and how Utena understands it.

Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade. ~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

Re: What if?

Even if she was confronted, Anthy would handle it the same way she gets away with everything else:

(Image Removed)"Oh dear, I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about. It must have been your imagination. "

As for the "date" the day after Utena walked in on them, I'm like 92.5% sure that Utena just wanted to get Akio alone and ask him about it, but she couldn't work up the guts to do so. (That's happened to me more times than I can remember.) I wonder, though, what Akio would have said or done if Utena did demand an explanation...

Re: What if?

The date had me confused for a long, long time. But later on, when Utena pulls Anthy from the ledge and they have their sad little conversation, I started to think about the date.

Utena: And when I saw you and Akio-san together...I even thought you had betrayed me.

Utena's feelings for Akio have been growing, and it's reached the point in the series where she truly believed that he could be her prince. So, upon seeing him screwing his sister, she's understandably upset and feeling betrayed. I like the whole idea personally, because it humanizes Utena more. She's a teenage girl, and it's a real rarity to find someone noble enough to put friendship over love. I mean, if you saw your lover with your best friend, your first honest instinct is to become angry with your friend. (Well, not always. But you get where I'm going with this.) Would it be so hard to believe that Utena is having a moment of pettiness? That she's trying to take Akio away from Anthy, and show her that he is her prince?

Utena: I'm the one who's unfair. I'm the one who's dirty. Utena: I'm the one who betrayed you.

I think this line supports my theory as well. Utena doesn't really elaborate on any way that she has betrayed Anthy, but she clearly feels so much remorse for it. She claims that she's never tried to understand Anthy's suffering, but she never really shows any strong desire to do so until the Akio scenario. Her nobility has caught up with her (well, actually, I think it probably caught up with her mid-date, considering how awkward she seemed.) and she's ready to rescue her princess once more. This time, she's determined not to let anyone stand in her way.

So, err, yeah. That's my opinion on the date.

ah, man does not exist; ah, within the darkness; ah, the sound of the waves

Re: What if?

Yeah, and the survivng duellists were using Kozue as the Chu-Chu bait in a skimpy princess Leia outfit. Then when that failed (messily) they decided to hit him with water from the spring of drowned beetle and ended up stomping him to death.