Frankly, I think all the discussion about one design is kind of silly.

Because there's one reason why Hobie Europe's sales sagged and sales of the Wave, Getaway, and continued sales of the H16 and especially the sales of sailing kayaks are strong. It's just ease of rigging.

Because time and money aren't what they used to be, setup and take down of the rig has to be fast. The cats mentioned above do relatively fast rigging.

I watch bass boaters launch and those guys whip in the parking lot, back the boat down the ramp, park the car, hop in, and go. It takes 45 minutes to rig the FX and then the local cat launching locations stink compared to power boat launch locations.

The focus has got to be on innovations in rigging and launching first no matter what cat. So my *bold* prediction is that if the focus is not there, you will be seeing more problems.

From what I can tell, the "Arms Race" folks are so busy splintering a small field of serious cat sailors with new designs, the Alter cup can't even agree on a format or get a half dozen of the same boats to show up. I'm not sure if that "Main Stage" is ultimately helping the sport.

What was the odd boat? It was all on F16's I thought?

Nobody stepped up to supply boats for this years Alter Cup, so it was a byob event. It was also placed really close to F16 Nationals, and that same weekend was Catacup in St Barths. Just bad luck for the Alter Cup. I would've liked to have attended, but work is ballistic right now and I just couldn't take anymore time off.

I'm not so sure one design is the way to go. How big a driver is one design racing to over all sales? It might be a backbone, or not. Without options to make a one design more attractive to non-racers, will it produce enough sales to be marketable?

Its simple, nobody likes hanging their butt out buying the first of something, then hoping their buddies buy into it as well. But, if its a new model and you've got other's to play with right off the bat, its much easier. Some designs are flops, most are not. What was the Gel-Tek a few years ago that was a total turd and everybody was pissed at Ashby about? That's a good example of a turd and also an example of how uncommon it is.

The H16 will be strong for a long time, its success as a one design is very rare though, especially in the beach cat sailing world. We are far too few in number to sustain much one design activity.

American society is very different from what it was thirty years ago. Its instant gratification, its flashy, it almost requires A.D.D. to function. Sailing in almost any form has next to none of that. I think a better question is why does beachcat sailing do so well in Europe? What examples can be gleaned from Europeans to bring it about here again?

You can NOT compare windsurfing and kite-boarding to sailing a cat. I have friends that do all three & the experience is completely different for each.

One could argue, eating french fries is a very different experience than cheese burgers, but they both are fast food, and equally bad for you....

The point I was trying to make -- a two-up cat have a greater chance of success then a single-handler. One factor; you can't go windsurfing with a crew. This is what clearly differentiates cat sailing from the other two sports.

Creative wrote:

We need a new affordable cat that is in-between a Hobie Wave & an A-class cat.

That would be H17 -- check the Portsmouth Numbers for the 3 cats

Wave 92.1H17 74.0A-cat 64.5

I would bet, if you sale your Wave, you can buy a very decent H17 for the money you make on the sale.

Looking at the Hobie lineup I see a potential for some creative thinking and marketing of new boats.

Clearly the leading sellers are the kaysks, the AI & TI, and the plastic cats. I've tried out the AI and TI, own a wave and an H18. There's some room in there for something that's versatile like the TI, but lots faster yet easy to rig. One could go about making this versatile boat catlike by incorporating some of the cuilding ideas from the dude over at the Watertribe site that did a dual Mirage drive cat, or you could look to the success of the Weta and add some provision for the mirage drive in a boat that has some better speed potential than the TI.

I really don't want to strap an outboard on a cat, but one of my sailing areas is Sanibel Island. No mast up beach storage (another reason beach cat sailing in the US is fading), so trailering is my only option. 20+ minute drive time, setup time at the ramp, and pray the wind direction is favorable to get out of that corner between the causeway and the curving beach near Point Ybel. Or I can just go 3 minutes down the road to the bay side, but would need to motor or paddle a cat through the mangroves to get to some sailing areas--and the tides are fierce in the passes.

The Mirage drives are magic! But coming from even a Wave, the AI and TI are slow. Hobie has maxed out what they can do with a freestanding rig in a shallow hull, so we're not likely to see anything like Weta performance.

While I agree that there's room for another cat in Hobie's lineup, I think the reason to own a cat or tri could be expanded by the ability to use on a glassy day trolling a line, or in my case back to the launching ramp.

If it's a cat, how about incorporating a pair of Mirage drives that could plug into the hulls with footwells. Unconventional? Sure, but the dagger could maybe use the same slot with some creative engineering--or just have a plug for the well with a place to securely stasy them.

If it's a tri, there's room out there for another boat that fits between the TI and the Weta or W17 (which is too big to use the drives I bet).

Regardless of what could come out of the discussion, there could be a unique opportunity to grab some of the Weta craze with a bigger platform or introduce the world to a fast cat that could also be a fun boat on windless days.

Either of these boat would require trailering although I saw a cool post on small trimarans this week about a pretty slick cartoppable triThe bazooka--it's only 12' but I'm thinking of the 16'-17' version. I sailed on the Raptor 16, a sit on top single outrigger version with a similar roller furling sail as the AI TI. I think that's a must if you are going for a boat that's a cartopper, but not if it's a trailer boat. A longer Weta style boat with a mirage drive or two or a cat. There's nothing really on the market like it right now & maybe for good reason, but then again?

You can NOT compare windsurfing and kite-boarding to sailing a cat. I have friends that do all three & the experience is completely different for each.

One could argue, eating french fries is a very different experience than cheese burgers, but they both are fast food, and equally bad for you....

The point I was trying to make -- a two-up cat have a greater chance of success then a single-handler. One factor; you can't go windsurfing with a crew. This is what clearly differentiates cat sailing from the other two sports.

Creative wrote:

We need a new affordable cat that is in-between a Hobie Wave & an A-class cat.

That would be H17 -- check the Portsmouth Numbers for the 3 cats

Wave 92.1H17 74.0A-cat 64.5

I would bet, if you sale your Wave, you can buy a very decent H17 for the money you make on the sale.

#1. You can not have a good cheese burger with out fries. #2. The Hobie 16 takes care of the "two-up cat" #3. The Hobie 17 is NOT as simple a boat to rig like a Wave.

I would like to see a fast, affordable, simple to rig, solo boat. Most of my friends have stopped sailing the H16 or H18 because it's to much of a hassle to rig for a quick sail after work.

I would like to see a fast, affordable, simple to rig, solo boat. Most of my friends have stopped sailing the H16 or H18 because it's to much of a hassle to rig for a quick sail after work.

Bam! I think you nailed it. 15 minutes is at the long end. My wife loves to sail, but hanging out with the kids while I rig the 18 is not too fun for her. The wave on the other hand is just fine--as long as I don't have to assemble it from scratch, which is more like 30 minutes.

How's the saying go? "You can have it cheap, quickly, or done well. Pick two of the three." or something along those lines. Honestly, what you are describing to a "T" is an older A-Cat. Put the stick up, push the sail up, done. (edit)- oops, forgot. You'll have to put a boom on. That pin can be a killer.....

Creative wrote:

Most of my friends have stopped sailing the H16 or H18 because it's to much of a hassle to rig for a quick sail after work.

They didn't stop because it was too much of a hassle. They quit because they weren't that interested. What's a H16 take a normal person to rig? Twenty minutes? (I say normal because, I have massive ocd and strip everything off my boats when I trailer them.)

How's the saying go? "You can have it cheap, quickly, or done well. Pick two of the three." or something along those lines. Honestly, what you are describing to a "T" is an older A-Cat. Put the stick up, push the sail up, done. (edit)- oops, forgot. You'll have to put a boom on. That pin can be a killer.....

Creative wrote:

Most of my friends have stopped sailing the H16 or H18 because it's to much of a hassle to rig for a quick sail after work.

They didn't stop because it was too much of a hassle. They quit because they weren't that interested. What's a H16 take a normal person to rig? Twenty minutes? (I say normal because, I have massive ocd and strip everything off my boats when I trailer them.)

It's 2012 & boat technology has changed but Hobie has not for years & years.