New Ghostcrawler Blog: Threat Needs To Matter

In his latest developer blog, Ghostcrawler talks about the threat mechanic, how it's intended to work, and how you (and the development team) know when there's a problem. He provides a bulleted list which is the major thrust of the essay, which I'll reproduce here:

If a tank is trying to generate threat on a single target, and it runs off to kill a DPS class, that’s a problem.

If a tank is trying to generate area threat on a group, and the tanked things are running off to kill healers, that’s a problem.

If Vengeance falling off causes the tank to lose threat, that’s a problem.

For more details, check after the break for the full transcript.

A tank’s job is to protect the group. A big part of that is controlling the enemy. A big part of controlling the enemy is staying alive. Tanks have a lot of tools to stay alive, and mastering those is a major component of learning to play a tank. On the other hand, some of these tools are on long cooldowns, and on some encounters they are intended for use at specific moments in the fight. Furthermore, staying alive isn’t the sole responsibility of the tank, because there will always be one or more healers present whose job it is to keep the tank alive. As such, staying alive can’t be the only thing tanks have to focus on.

So, let’s back up a moment to controlling the enemy. “Control” includes things like positioning the boss, or doing specific things at specific times, such as swapping with an off tank. It also includes making sure the boss doesn’t attack anyone else. That’s where threat generation comes into play.

If threat generation is too easy then the entire risk of the encounter drops. Newsflash: we don’t actually want encounters to be easy. We want encounters to be fun, and for most players, that includes both rewards and risks.

We want tanks to care about the buttons they hit instead of just relying on auto-attacking to control their target. We don’t necessarily want very complicated tank DPS rotations, because as I mentioned above, tanks do have other things to keep track of. But we want their combat abilities to be engaging. Good tanks should be those who control, survive, and generate sufficient threat.

On the other hand, when threat is too hard to maintain, it can be exasperating. Tanks get understandably frustrated when the game is asking them to do something but not giving them the tools to do it. The non-tanks in the group also become frustrated, because they feel throttled. It’s one thing when overcoming the boss is challenging. It feels worse when you know that another player is standing in your way, keeping you from achieving your top performance.

We don’t usually want DPS classes to have to stop attacking in order to keep from generating too much threat. We do want players to pay attention. We don’t think it’s too much to ask for DPS and healers to wait a couple of GCDs for the tank to get the enemy under control -- we’re not asking for five stacks of Sunder Armor these days. What we really mean by proper threat management is knowing things like when it’s time to go all out, when it’s appropriate to use a threat-reducing cooldown, and most importantly, which is the right target to be attacking. I’m not trying to bash pugs here, but I am amazed at how often a nuker will pick a random target instead of the one being tanked, then blame the tank for not holding aggro (and then blame the healer when they die). In short, if threat is too easy, the game is boring. If threat is too difficult, the game is frustrating.

How then do you guys (and the developers!) know when threat is a problem? Here are some handy guidelines.

If a tank is trying to generate threat on a single target, and it runs off to kill a DPS class, that’s a problem.

If a tank is trying to generate area threat on a group, and the tanked things are running off to kill healers, that’s a problem.

If Vengeance falling off causes the tank to lose threat, that’s a problem.

These problems can have a couple of causes. It could be a problem we caused, meaning that even an expertly-played tank has low threat generation because our numbers are undertuned. Or it could be that only an expertly-played tank can generate threat because you’re asked to manage too many abilities. Or it could be that Vengeance is the only thing allowing you to generate enough threat because the size of the buff is masking low threat generation from your abilities. It could also be a problem you need to fix on your end: if someone is nuking or cleaving a random target on a group pull instead of assisting the tank, that’s not the tank’s fault.

Now, there are things we don’t like about threat as a mechanic. It’s fairly gamey as game mechanics go and we think there are probably better ways to communicate it to players. There are some mods that do a very credible job given the limited information we provide, but overall we’d like to present threat better since we’re asking you to take it seriously in the PvE game.

-Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft and the skipper of a very nice ship where they serve cute sandwiches with the crust removed. And gin.

Comments

Comment by Theodicus

Comment by mecheye

on 2010-12-16T12:13:54-06:00

Well said, GC. Well said.

Comment by Contay

on 2010-12-16T12:16:48-06:00

In other words, learn how to play your class people!

Or tell the frost DK on your group to either slow down or stop acting surprised that he gets aggro and dies on an AoE pull after firing off 3 howling blasts before the tank can shockwave/DnD/Bloodboil/Holy Wrath/Consecrate/Swipe.

All around, everyone must learn to do their job correctly. No more zerg. No more DPS jumping the gun without consequence. No more set-it-and-forget-it AoE tanking.

Comment by cubelord

on 2010-12-16T12:17:01-06:00

Since the cata changes, I haven't noticed a whole lot different about threat generation on my warrior. There have been a few things that I've had to change, but at least as a warrior I haven't seen many problems. With Blood and Thunder, AoE is now a lot easier than it used to be, as well as the very handy Thunderstruck talent. That being said, there are a few funky things about threat here and there. Oftentimes, losing aggro (whether it's due to an aggro drop, a dps not paying attention, or something like that) means for a very difficult time getting it back. If a DPS accidentally tab-target pulls a new group, unless I can catch them before they get inside charge range, I'm often rage starved to the point of being unable to grab them all before someone in the group dies. I'm not sure if this a problem on my end or what, perhaps I just need to be more careful about using my shouts. Either way, one thing that I think could really help change is to up the amount of initial threat created by charging a target.I've had a few cases where I charged into a group, and they all just ignore me and run behind me towards god-knows-who. I had to say, it hurt my self esteem, if the mobs didn't love me :(Other than that, if a pull is good, then threat shouldn't be a problem. Pull is bad, threat is a problem. It makes sense for a bad pull to be a survival problem, but I don't think it should be a threat problem.

Comment by sleepypirate

on 2010-12-16T12:23:28-06:00

"but I am amazed at how often a nuker will pick a random target instead of the one being tanked, then blame the tank for not holding aggro" <=== right there. LEARN

Comment by jasonstarr1

on 2010-12-16T12:34:11-06:00

I DK tank all I ask is for THREE GCD'S 3 SECONDS, 1:DnD 2:Icy Touch 3: Pestilence by that time my threat is suffiecnent and you can let loose I can keep aggro from there

My pally friend said all I need is 3 gcd's but targe his initial sheild of the ritious target

my warrior friend also said 3 gcd's is enough

SO just count 1... 2... 3... NUKE. and your good

Comment by Interest

on 2010-12-16T12:34:39-06:00

And this is why I like Misdirection.

Comment by TKitch

on 2010-12-16T13:01:19-06:00

If I'm tankin for a group with a hunter? One little MD and my threat's good. That means 1 GCD and I'm happy. Otherwise, I'd prefer 3 or 4 to lay down enough burn to stay ahead of the DPS atom bombs coming in. (Sub in TotT as appropriate)

Comment by Stormlor

on 2010-12-16T13:03:05-06:00

I'm starting to get tired of the Blizz Devs think they know the players when they don't. Ghostcrawler thinks tanks just hit auto attack and a few buttons here and there. While I don't play a tank my guild tanks don't do that.

Its same thing they did to healers. Blizz thinks all we hit is Renew and PW:S when actually most of the Priests don't do that. The idiot players (pugs) do that, not the smart players.

So why does Blizzard feel they need to punish everybody even the smart players who don't do that. Gets annoying.

Comment by grandevil

on 2010-12-16T13:12:01-06:00

Being a tank is incredibly stressful. DPS still doesn't get that they have to manage their own threat.

Comment by Stormlor

on 2010-12-16T13:16:47-06:00

Being a tank is incredibly stressful. DPS still doesn't get that they have to manage their own threat.

In a guild run all my guildies run Omen or some sort of threat meter. In pugs they don't have anything like that because they don't care.

Comment by Interest

on 2010-12-16T13:17:40-06:00

Being a tank is incredibly stressful. DPS still doesn't get that they have to manage their own threat.

In a guild run all my guildies run Omen or some sort of threat meter. In pugs they don't have anything like that because they don't care.

Meh. There's an ingame "Omen" thing. Helps a bit.

Comment by soccergenius

on 2010-12-16T13:17:47-06:00

I'm starting to get tired of the Blizz Devs think they know the players when they don't. Ghostcrawler thinks tanks just hit auto attack and a few buttons here and there. While I don't play a tank my guild tanks don't do that.

Its same thing they did to healers. Blizz thinks all we hit is Renew and PW:S when actually most of the Priests don't do that. The idiot players (pugs) do that, not the smart players.

So why does Blizzard feel they need to punish everybody even the smart players who don't do that. Gets annoying.

Did you raid ICC 25 or H-ICC 10/25? Discipline priests were brought in, and expected to make sure everyone had PW:S at all times, because that was the most efficient and safe way to do things. They know the player base better than you do. They have access to parses and data that you don't. I'm not hating on disc priests! Bubbles are awesome <3

On tanking, if you're a good tank, and dps aren't nuking the non-focus target, threat is pretty easy. A prot warrior guildy was pulling 12k dps on heroic trash, insane. What's really separating good tanks from bad ones are ability to pull and control mobs and def CD timing. That's not to say that single target threat is a joke, but it seems to me that some heroic trash pulls are sketchier than some bosses if you're not CC'ing well.

Comment by Interest

on 2010-12-16T13:19:25-06:00

A prot warrior guildy was pulling 12k dps on heroic trash, insane.

That's mostly due to how Vengeance interacts with high incoming damage.

Comment by Contay

on 2010-12-16T13:25:42-06:00

I'm starting to get tired of the Blizz Devs think they know the players when they don't.

Blizzard Developers are players too. In fact, I'd wager that since they make this game, they understand what's possible and what human limitations for abilities and typical group interactions a lot more than you'd realize; they also have a through understanding of what people were getting away with doing to accomplish an 'acceptable' job back in WotLK in what was supposed to be some of the most difficult content of the game.

The simple fact of the matter is that the design philosophy of Cataclysm in regards to dungeons and class mechanics is that they are no longer catering to the lowest common denominator. Mechanics right now are such that if you, as a player, are NOT doing something correctly then it will be obvious.

The bulleted list details what you need to be checking for if you think something is wrong and if you think you're doing your job right. If none of the bulleted list is being noticed as what's going wrong, then PEBKAC. Also worth nothing that a cut-and-try skill rotation isn't always ideal for every single pull in dungeons these days with so many new, interesting abilities that some mobs have in dungeons. Your ability to adapt to situations and being able to help conduct your group as a well-functioning machine is where success lies now.

Comment by evankimori

on 2010-12-16T13:26:02-06:00

Here's the problem as well: the playerbase that comes into Cata and REFUSES to CC. They outright refuse to do it/wait for it/use it. They're still under the impression that every instance equals a WoTLK heroic and 'just AOE everything' and then wonder why tanks get torn apart by multiple abilities because the healer can't keep up or mob abilities that wreck the DPS or 'don't stand in X' - thus disaster.

Comment by YJMark

on 2010-12-16T13:28:08-06:00

So why does Blizzard feel they need to punish everybody even the smart players who don't do that. Gets annoying.

How are smart players getting punished by Blizzard?

Comment by Aestu

on 2010-12-16T13:33:14-06:00

Ghostcrawler is as arrogant as he is inept.

Most of his post consists of him rehashing tautologies and cliches about PvE. Tanks need to hold threat over DPS and healing? New and interesting! This man is a genius!

In a separate blog post, Ghostcrawler claimed that the function of Vengeance was to normalize threat through gear progression. Except, that's not what it does at all. Vengeance doesn't do what he claimed, it doesn't scale with DPS gear, only tank gear and damage intake.

Ghostcrawler writes as if WoW didn't exist until he was appointed by the new Activision people to lead the dev team...while the A-team of devs who actually conceived WoW have been transferred to Titan, the new MMO, leaving the B-team - Ghostcrawler - stumbling through WoW design.

What he doesn't say in this blog (or realize) is that threat worked fine until he broke it with his half-baked Vengeance mechanic. For five years, tanks held threat just fine, and tanking was fun and engaging, until Ghostcrawler decided to arrogantly reinvent the wheel.

We had Vengeance - tank threat scaling with damage intake - in vanilla. It was called rage starvation. It sucked. When the underlying mechanics were simplified and normalized, the problem was alleviated. Lesson learned; scaling tank threat with damage intake was a dumb idea. Ghostcrawler refuses to learn from experience so he repeats an old mistake.

I don't see why we should care what someone who either does not understand (or willfully misrepresents) what his mechanics do, writes on a blog.

Comment by YJMark

on 2010-12-16T13:39:54-06:00

Ghostcrawler claimed that the function of Vengeance was to normalize threat through gear progression. Except, that's not what it does at all. Vengeance doesn't do what he claimed, it doesn't scale with DPS gear, only tank gear and damage intake

Isn't "better tank gear and increased damage intake" roughly equivalent to "gear progression"? As you progress, you get better gear, and take more damage (since progression bosses will hit harder). I'm not 100% sure I see the difference. Maybe I'm misunderstanding exactly how Vengeance works though.

Comment by Capnboomkin

on 2010-12-16T13:46:05-06:00

If only every class had some kind of threat-reducing ability. It would definitely make my life a lot easier.