I think just about any Mowest 45 would be rare. I lived in Detroit at the time the label was active(1971-1773) and I always had a VERY difficult time getting Mowest releases. I have Mowest 45's by Devastating Affair, Sisters Love, and G.C. Cameron. I have Mowest albums by Thelma Houston, Celebration, Odyssey, Lesley Gore, and Syreeta. I'd like to get that Bobby Taylor 45 as well. Been on the lookout for it for years.

Forum Members: Before joining up with Tommy Chong and Cheech Marin in the Vancouvers, what was Mr. Taylors background? Did he originate in Vancouver?

I think he is one of r+b' best tenors--clear crackly voice--would have done justice to "Under the Boardwalk".

Additionally, what did he do after the Vancouvers? Did he do tours, clubs, studio work or what? Seems like he was mentioned a few times in the movie, but over here in Vancouver, we didn't hear too much about his career, although the other month a couple of r+b veterans were on the university of bc radio station talking about 'the day' and they told a risque story about HM and the Bluenotes and Teddy P getting alot women in the audience so excited all the musicians reaped the rewards after the show. Don't know who else it could be. But does he even come to Vancouver anymore?

Bobby Taylor is from Washington, D.C. he sang early on, on street corners with the likes of Marvin Gaye and others. His mom moved to Columbus, OH prior to his moving west and he recorded with a group called the Pharoahs. He didn't get anywhere until he moved to the west coast and hooked up with the early origins of the Vancouvers who once went by the politically incorrect moniker of Four Niggers and Chink.

Scratcher, I have to admit that the former name of the Vancouvers is a little politically incorrect. However, Having know Bobby Taylor rather well I think this showed his penchant for irreverant humor. My only objection to this posting is I think you should have put it on the Discussions of African American Culture thread. I would loved to have seen old Isaiah's response to that baby.

Hear ye - hear ye - Sis. Just because there are some amongst us that uses that word to describe themselves and/or their partners does not mean that the entire race does. Most of us - find it irrelevant. It is not offensive to me - for I don't identify w/it as it pertains to me - mine or my ancestors. What does it mean really? And where does it come from?

Hey guys, they really use to call themselves that for awhile. At the time the group was comprised of Bobby Taylor, three other black guys and Tommy Chong. Tommy Chong was a master of irrelevant humor too Ralph. He and Bobby probably came up with the name after smoking a bowl of mary-g-wanna.

Sis let me answer that 4 U, he'd rather hide behind another thread, because he knows Isaih will come at him like a Cyclone, that's Y he didn't Go 2 the African American Culture thread that Isaiah started... because he doesn't have any backbone. At least Isaiah, said what he had 2 say N your Face...whether anyone agreed with him or not, he stood his ground and didn't back down. Say what U want 2 say about him (Isaiah), he's not running scared. If U gonna try 2 bash & trash him, then B man enough 2 do it 2 his face.

Now I know Y Isaiah came on so brassy and blasted some of you N the first place, he saw through certain individuals like a silk string. Like I said B4, If U have a beef with Isaiah, don't B chicken about it,he did leave his E Mail address, talk 2 him one on one instead of behind the topic of "Bobby Taylor"...Umm Umm Umm (I don't think he bites either). LOL!

Are you mentally ill? What makes you think I have a beef with Isaiah? I've never said one word about Isaiah. Read a good biography of Bobby Taylor & the Vancouvers and you'll see that's what they use to call themselves. If you want to get mad at somebody for referring to themselves that way get mad at Bobby Taylor, Tommy Chong and the other three members who went along with the name. Don't shoot the messenger here. Or am I mistakenly thinking you're directing your venom at me when you're really talking about Ralph?

SB, the "N" word came from some ignorant who didn't know how 2 decipher the title of the River Niger, they do what they always do, add on lies. (so, they added another "g") I don't get mad about that, because I know who I (really) am.

Medusa, the word is nigger, the N word is so childish. We should be beyond the point where mere words can make us crazy. Evidently Bobby Taylor and the three other guys as well as Tommy Chong knew who they were too because they were men enough to be able to make fun of themselves.

Ralph and David this forum has really gone in the toilet lately. Can either of you or anybody on this forum explain to me why Medusa is mad at me for posting some history about Bobby Taylor & the Vancouvers? I also would like to know why I should have posted this on the Discussion of African American thread--that one really escapes me? I understand that Ralph was joking but Medusa is coming from somewhere beyond the twilight zone.

First of all, I DID NOT mention anyones' name, but if the shoe fits~~~~~~~~ Whatever Bobby Taylor called themselves N the beginning,wasn't necessary to spell out. The topic is "Bobby Taylor",it should've continued as that discussion on 'Bobby Taylor'Anyone can see what was being done here by so-called lovers of "SOUL music forum members. Well, maybe Isaiah was very correct about everything he said...and I'm not even the least surprised by the ones hiding behind the name of 'Bobby Taylor'.

Medusa they didn't call themselves Four N Words and a Chink, they called themselves Four Niggers and Chink.

You have a serious problem if your mental development is such that the mere mention of a word renders you into this idiotic state you're now in. Particularly when the word is not use in a hateful way. Nobody's hiding behind anything.

BTW, I was involved in the Pan Africanist Movement in College. Isaiah can't really tell me very much about the movement I don't already know. I still keep in touch with some of the brothers, like Brother Zizwet from Cleveland who attended college with me and who just returned from South Africa.

Don't matter...I haven't been on this forum long, but I know what U R tryin' 2 do, but it's OK. Just surprised at so-called grown men that aren't men enough 2 say what they REALLY want 2 say, instead of using Bobby Tayors' old group name 2 get yur point across...but guess what? I don't need 2 call U a name, because not only do I know my history, but I know your history 2

So what about your Pan African days, who cares ~~~so what R U now???? The Spook who sat by the door??? and I'm not coming out of no damn twilight zone either...U don't know me, Don't Play, OK???? I know where U R tryin' 2 come from~~~

You're right I don't know you and don't want to know you either. If I see you're coming I'm going the other way. You're suffering from something there isn't any medication for. You have my prayers. I'm sorry your life is the pits, maybe a positive thinking book will help, ever read one of those?

Scatcher - Medusa doesn't have a mental problem. She is just upsetat the moment. She will get over it. (We all get that way sometimes.) Your statement about the name of the group was not offensive. I truly believe Isaiah would not have been offended because, if was just the name of the group, so be it.

I just wanted to know why Ralph "..thinks it should have put it on the Discussions of African American Culture thread."

HEY SIS!!!...I THINK THAT RALPH WAS JUST MAKING AN ATTEMPT AT SOME "TONGUE IN CHEEK HUMOR"...WITH A BIT OF SATIRE MIXED IN...BUT IT SEEMS THAT EVERYONE IS JUST A BIT SENSITIVE THESE DAYS!!!...I'M SURE WE'LL ALL GET OVER IT AND FOCUS ON SOME REALLY IMPORTANT ISSUES...LIKE *STUBASS FOR GOVERNOR*!!!...STUBASS

Hey Sis tell Medusa that Bobby Taylor & the Vancouver was an interracial group and were making fun of themselves.

I'm glad you can speak for the state of Medusa's mental health cause from her takes and attacks on me you'll have to do some serious talking to convince me she's not illing. Sick and Silly describes her demeanor too.

BTW, I didn't have a problem with what you or Ralph said. Read Bobby Taylor's bio on All Music Guide.

BY THE WAY...THIS THREAD IS NOT IN VAIN AT ALL!!!...COINCIDENTIALLY...FELLOW BASSIST...TONY BLANCHARD CALLED ME JUST THE OTHER DAY...AND ASKED ME IF I KNEW SOME STUFF ABOUT BOBBY TAYLOR!!!...I SAID I'D CHECK OUT THE FORUM...AND SURE ENOUGH...HERE POPS BOBBY TAYLOR...SO I CALLED TONY...BUT HIS WIFE SAYS HIS NEWBORN HAS POOR TONY ALL TIRED OUT...AND HE WAS SLEEPING...SO I'LL GIVE HIM THE BOBBY TAYLOR INFO TOMORROW!!!...STUBASS

Scratcher - I really don't like to call posters mentally ill because I am not a phyco analyst. When triggers happen, some people get upset. Yes, she was at you pretty good. :o) I have no doubt about the name of the group. I could care less about the name. There have been other sickening names of groups of all colors.

I just want to know why Ralph thinks the initial first "name" of the group would be more fitting on the topic of African American Culture, rather than under the Bobby Taylor topic.

I HEAR YOU SIS!!!...I STILL DON'T THINK THAT ANYONE...ESPECIALLY RALPH...INTENDED ANYTHING UNTOWARDS AGAINST ANYONE!!!...MY GUESS IS THAT DUE TO THE NATURE OF THE UNUSUAL AND PERHAPS CONTROVERSIAL NAME THAT BOBBY AFFIXED TO HIS GROUP...PERHAPS RALPH THOUGHT THAT ISAIAH WOULD HAVE A COMMENT ON BOBBY GIVING HIS GROUP SUCH A NAME...BUT PLEASE...I DON'T PRETEND TO SPEAK FOR RALPH...OTHER THEN TO SAY THAT I CAN SAY FOR SURE THAT...RALPH DOESN'T HAVE A PREJUDICE BONE IN HIS BODY (IF THAT'S WHATS BEING INFERRED)...SO PERHAPS IT'S TIME TO MOVE THIS DISCUSSION FORWARD!!!...AND THAT GOES FOR EVERYBODY!!!...STUBASS

I WASN'T REFERRING TO ANYTHING OTHER THAN SIS'S QUESTION ABOUT RALPH SCRATCHER!!!...I PERSONALLY LIKE MED...AND YOU HAVE BEEN A VALUABLE CONTRIBUTOR TO THIS FORUM SCRATCHER...SO I'M NOT TAKING SIDES...OTHER THEN TO SAY THAT IT WOULD BE NICE FOR EVERYONE TO MOVE FORWARD!!!...(I'VE BEEN THERE AND I THINK THAT EVERYONE HAS ALREADY MADE THEIR FEELING KNOWN)...STUBASS

so what scratcher, everyday brings about a change, and I really enjoyed that Event...and I wont ever 4get it either,so again, your point is ??? U STILL don't know me or how I look now ok??? Come on, this thread just got exposed. Did U know that I always check out different threads all the time? HELLO!!!!! Gotcha! just say U don't like the things I said here, and/or the people I referred 2, but I've NEVER called U a name and U shouldn't call me mental etc...if so, then it takes one 2 know one. I haven't called U a name yet, what's with the name calling anyway? All U have 2 say is U don't like the things I said,that's how adults handle things, not name calling, my 9 year old grandson is more intelligent...just tell the truth man, that's all.

Again, easy for you to say. I don't remember you punking out when you were attacked. Who you like or don't like is irrelevant to the attacks on me, as is your opinion of my being a valuable contributor to this forum. That and 75 cents and you can buy a cup of coffee. I don't like being stroked. This woman had no reason to come at me like she did. Period! And for you to condone it speaks volume about you.

well, this womans intention wasn't 2 attack anyone, but i peeped U out on this particular thread, when this sort of thing should've been on the appropiate thread that Isaiah started and Ralph continued and U know it,so don't play dumb or innocent with me..U know exactly Y my venom was directed at U. Your response could've been handled better than it was, I know it and U know it also. What did U expect, a laugh? No, I didn't like your sneeky little joke. U didn't get serious until U realized U were peeped out.

WELL I'M ABOUT OUT OF IT...NEED MY 6 HOURS YOU KNOW...BUT FIRST OFF...I HAD NO PROBLEM WITH YOUR INITIAL POST SCRATCHER...AND REALLY DON'T QUITE UNDERSTAND ANYONE FINDING FAULT WITH IT...BUT SOME ARE MORE FEISTY THEN OTHERS!!!...SECOND OFF...I HAD A PROBLEM WHEN SOMEONE IMPUNED MY CHARACTER...NOT MY INTELLIGENCE OR MY SANITY...THOSE THINGS JUST ROLL OFF MY BACK!!!...THIRD...THE INDIVIDUAL THAT I HAD A PROBLEM WITH HAD A STRONGLY HELD POINT OF VIEW...OF WHICH...SOME THINGS I AGREED WITH...AND SOME THINGS I DIDNT!!!...BUT AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED...ME AND THIS INDIVIDUAL BASICALLY UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER AT THIS POINT...AND I RESPECT HIS OPINIONS (EVEN IF I DISAGREE AND SAY SO)...AND I WOULD EXPECT HIM TO RESPECT MY CHARACTER (WHAT MY MOM AND DAD RAISED)!!!...BUT AS IN MY PARTICULAR SITUATION...EVERYONE HAS EXPRESSED THEIR FEELINGS...AND AT THIS POINT...IT'S GOING NOWHERE...REDUNDANT...SO PERHAPS IT'S TIME TO TAKE A BREAK...EVERYBODY INVOLVED...AND PERHAPS PEOPLE WILL ADJUST THEIR PERSPECTIVE!!!...YOU'VE HAD YOUR SAY (WITHOUT "PUNKING OUT")...AND I SEE NO NEW ANGLES HERE...JUST REGURJITATED GOBBLE-DE-GOOK...IF YOU WANT TO FUSS...AT LEAST GET SOME NEW S#!* TO FUSS ABOUT!!!...SORRY...STUBASS

I'm so relieved you didn't have a problem with my orginal post, what would I have done if you did? FYI, what I stated is part of the history of that group, a history that you'll find on nearly every website that has biography of them. Like I said, your post speaks volumes about you. Any way the wind blows...right, Stu?

David M:

African-Americans (enlighten ones) are nolonger offended by the word itself we look at the context and the spirit the word is used. We don't punch out people on jobs anymore more causing our dimissals and hardships for our families because of others stupidity any longer. The enlighten African-American doesn't go crazy by the mere mention of the word. Most of us have progressed from that state of mind.

In addition, to recite the history of Bobby Taylor & the Vancouvers and not mention a name they use to call themselves is bad reporting. The person inquestion didn't get offended by the Chinese slur word because of a myopic view towards racism, meaning it's (racisim) only an issue if it concerns their race. True freedom fighters are concerned about injustices towards people of all races, religions and creeds. Tommy Chong (of Chinese heritage) was calling himself a chink.

The latter is a Canadian website. Canada has far less tolerance to racism and racist slurs than America. Yet, the former name is listed under another former name of the group, Little Daddy & the Batchelors. You really have to look at the context and the way a word is used and not the word itself.

And I'm still trying to figure out what my hidden agenda is for posting BT&V former name and why I should have posted it on the Discussion of African American thread.

I 4 one, do owe U and apology 4 getting a little out of hand...just didn't like how loosely the "N" word was being used due 2 the fact that at one time, we as Blacks were called the "N" word...and it appeard 2 B a (sneak N) joke or something, but I recognized it and that's what got all the riff raff started. I never called anyone out of their name (if my memory serves me right), and maybe it was a joke 2 Bobby Taylor, but I find no humor N it. Then he kept repeating it on purpose and had the nerve 2 call me mental, so I know now where a lot of these so-called soul music lovers' really stand. I hope u can also understand my point. Just because a person is black, doesn't mean it's from the soul, just on the outside. It's more than a color thing. I know U R an intelligent man and I admire U 4 dealing with all our pros & cons..but U David have a very nice rest of your Life....Peace 2 U!

Is it all right to interupt this discussion about "Bobby Taylor and the Vancouvers" with an actual question about Bobby Taylor and the Vancouvers? a) someone mentioned that BT went to the west coast. Where? and b) does the name Vancouvers reference the city in Washington ("suburban" Portland) or British Columbia? With the makeup of the group, I would suspect the second. Or is there another Vancouver out there?

WOW!!!! What did I wake up to this morning??? Such a controversy. Why are we all getting upset over a few words? Have we become so rigid in our beliefs that we are now humorless? The original post was fact. That is what the Vancouvers called themselves. And David is right. I didn't see anyone take offense at the " Chink " reference. In the world of political correctness, this is just as offensive. Sis, Stu was right. I was just joking around when I suggested the post info should have been posted on the African American thread. Personally I find Isaiah to be rather humorless and self serving. My opinion and I'm entiled to it. Please quit jumping all over poor Scratcher. All he did was post some truth. As David points out, my partner Teddie Morrow ( and brother for that matter ) is African American. He calls me an Italian Nigger. I'm flattered that he thinks that much of me. Now let's all please settle down.

Ralph, I didn't take offense to your post, I knew you were joking. I took offense to the person who took you seriously then took a stab at me for posting biographical information about Bobby Taylor on the Bobby Taylor thread.

And I'm not poor, as I stated, I'm a former member of a Pan Africanist group that originated at the University of Akron in the seventies and I'm on their email list because of a friend who's still a member. The group is an extension of the late Stokely Carmichael's organization. I had a fundamental difference with the group pertaining to their separatist view. They don't feel African-Americams will ever get equal treatment under caucausian rule. They're for establishing separate States or moving back to Africa. I'm more a militant, I feel I'm just as much of an American as anybody and prefer to fight through legal means, sit ends, etc. to achieve goals, similar to Martin Luther King but without the passiveness.

People who let a mere word imobilize them are stuck in the past and parked on dumb. And the I'm Blacker Than You Bullcrap has gotten old.

DOUG!!!...MY GUESS...IS THAT TOMMY CHONG WAS EITHER FROM...OR SPENT TIME IN VANCOUVER BC...WHICH HAS ONE OF THE LARGEST ASIAN POPULATIONS OUTSIDE OF ASIA...THUS...THE ASIAN REFERENCE (WHEW)!!!...RALPH...I READ YOU LOUD AND CLEAR...AND I'D SURE HATE TO HAVE SOME OF THESE POSTERS WORKING WITH ME!!!...WE SPEND MOST OF OUR DAY SPEWING IRREVERENT HUMOR AT EACH OTHER...AND I WORK WITH PEOPLE WHO...MANY OF WHOM...I'VE KNOWN FOR 15 YEARS WITHOUT GETTING UPSET WITH EACH OTHER...BECAUSE WE GET IT!!!...THAT INCLUDES...JEWS...ITALIANS...AFRICAN AMERICANS...HISPANICS...AFGHANI'S...ASIANS...AND MIDDLE EASTERNERS (AM I LEAVING ANYONE OUT???)...THE MORE "BRUTAL" IT GETS...THE MORE FUN WE HAVE!!!...THIS IS BORNE OUT OF A STARTING POINT OF MUTUAL RESPECT...AND REALIZING THAT WHATEVER WE SAY ABOUT EACH OTHER...COMES FROM A PLACE OF LOVE AND RESPECT!!!..GEEZ...I HOPE IT'S NOT UP TO THE AUTOMOBILE BUSINESS TO HAVE TO TEACH THE REST OF THE WORLD HOW TO LOVE EACH OTHER...GET ALONG...AND HAVE FUN DOING IT...THATS SCARY...WHEN ALL WE SHOULD BE THINKING OF IS TAKING YOUR MONEY...AND PUTTING YOU INTO THE CAR OF YOUR DREAMS!!!...STUBASS

Getting back to the music Heres a few more Bobby Taylor&The Vancouvers tracks worth listening to: Fading away on Gordy(no.7069) I am your man on Gordy(no.7073) There are roses somewhere in the world on Sunflower(no.?) Oh I've been blessed on VIP(no.25053) this is also very scarce on the Gordy label(no.7088)

Forum: Tommy Chong is from Vancouver BC. His dad, I think, owned a club called the Shanghai Junk. Mr. Chong I think, is from mixed parentage as is much of the city these days, always having beautiful young people of all different races to attract one another. I read the All Music Guide about the group. Seems a shame that Bobby Taylors voice went to waste for the most part after joining Motown.

Ok scratcher, "IF" I offended U, it was by mistake. I've never called U out of your name and I never will. I would appreciate it if U would not call me out of my name. I Hope U have a nice day, and everything goes perfect 4 U scratcher~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Scratcher,as I said to Ralph on the other thread,I like your style. Growing up in Inkster Mi.,I sometimes felt like a Scottish neon bulb walking down the street with my friends. What eveyone forgets on this site is the wonderful sense of humor that African -Americans have. I can't recall very many times that we were'nt laughing and joking about just about everything.

My point also Lynn. Teddie will have me absolutely on the floor during recording sessions when he gets wound up about something and starts his parodies of James Brown or people from his hometown of Chapel Hill N. C.

As Ralph mentioed earlier regarding what Teddie calls him, my friends, who are 99% African American , sometime make a similar comment to me. And like Ralph, it is the greatest compliment anyone can bestow upon me, and it istills my credibility among my friends.

Also, Bobby Taylor and the Vancouvers did a lot of shows with the Vibrations in the late sixties. In fact, Tommy Chong wrote out the changes to does your mama know about me, for me personally.

Several years later we reminisced about it during his C&C days.

BTW, Cheech Marin was not a Vancouver and Bobby Taylor introduced the J5 to Berry G.

Bobby, I suppose I find it rather ironic that this word that some find so distasteful and offensive ( and it certainly has the capability of being just that ) is to you and I something of a bestowment of respect. Perhaps similar to knighthood. To me Teddie Morrow is one bad cat. Nothing short of a musical genius. To have his respect is to me everything. My father always liked what he saw between Teddie and me and before the Alzheimers started taking the best of him from me, he used to say to me " You guys go out there and give them hell". Yeah dad, were still at it no matter what we call each other.

Thanks David for your words. I think you called it right by stating that you won't allow such words to be used here.

Whether some don't mind the use of the word or not does not mean that others don't. It really is as simple as that.

Now we all weren't not born yesterday - and many of us have a history w/that word directed at us. And although I may not identify w/it - I still find it very demeaning. Do we really want to get in a conversation about who calls who that word - and their meaning behind it? I mean - didn't this think come up when J-Lo used it in a record? Didn't P Diddy more or less give her a pass on using the word?

And again - wasn't there a big discussion wherein some African Americans said that they could use it but that they didn't want others not AM to use it? Now how does that sound? If that is the way they want to carry it in their circle and family - then that is their right - but they do not speak for everyone. Just as no one here does.

Again - I agree w/David's position in that no potential offensive and disrespectful words should be used on this forum. Talk about dividing some folks up! I find nothing affectionate in the use of that particular word or any other destructive slur that is still used today.

And - I know that we are not that naive not to think nor realize how many hate sites there are on the Net (Along w/other types of media) - w/that word being spread all ova the pages - and w/pics of a noose strung around an AA neck. Let's get real here folks. There are still millions of haters of AA out there - and we know it to be true. What do some think they still call us? Malcolm said it best that time when he was talking to the AA man that had a PHD.

Hello, I am actually interested in hearing more about Bobby Taylor. I must say that, unfortunately, I really don't know much about him, just a little bit about his association with the Jackson 5 and that is it. Does he still record? How many albums did they record for Motown? And are there any compilation cds out on Bobby and the Vancouvers? I just went on amazon.com and saw something listed that seems to be out of print. I just looked online a few minutes ago and searched and a website said that he and the Vancouvers were discovered by Diana Ross! That i didn't know. Can anyone give me a little more info on him and the group? Thank you Scratcher for posting those links, I will go look at them right now and they may answer some of my questions and to Melandthensome for listing those singles.

You miss the point. Or, maybe you missed your english classes. The word was not used with any disrespect or in a disrespectful way.

Don't let a word upset you. If people know this about you it gives them control over your actions. Just saying it can make people like you go off...and that's not good.

Soulful Detroit is a music forum, Bobby Taylor & the Vancouvers are a music subject, that name is part of their history--end of story.

Medusa:

Apology accepted Medusa and you have mine as well.

Keane:

Your observation about Bobby's voice is interesting. I only know it from Motown on. I would love to listen to some of his many earlier recordings and hear the difference.

Thommygirl:

The only CD by Bobby Taylor I know of is the sole Motown album he recorded with the Vancouvers. His solo album has not been reissued on CD. I would like to see both LPs combined on one CD with any unissued tracks that might be lying around. I also would like to hear his recordings outside of Motown, prior and after, on CD. He lives in California and is doing little hometown club dates I hear.

Scratcher - I know you are not trying to tell me to go back to school.

Here is a lesson for you: (And you have the nerve to tell someone - "End of discussion")

No one, to include you can take a word and make it have power over me.

I'd just love to be a fly on the wall if you were to go to some towns (Where you were not welcomed - btw because of the color of your skin) and perhaps after geting there - you would never be heard from again.

Let's see here. Why don't you go to any town/city down south - or north - east and west - for that matter, where you were the only ________ there. Would you feel good about yourself? Would you feel any trepidation or caution? Would you feel love? Would you feel that it was still just a word when the many folks would start shouting it at 'ya - and ask you what are you doing there? Would you be afraid and perhaps cry? Or would you just sit there grinning.

What would you tell them - btw? Would you tell them that you learned the true meaning of that word in an english class - or would you tell them that you like the word - so they need not hurt you - and that you can handle it and identify w/it?

Listen Scratcher - I am not getting on you for posting the word. My thing is that it was mentioned - commented on and discussed - and btw - that is all I am doing.

No one has power over me - but I am not stupid either. I know where I could show up and can't show up. My philosophy is - after God - I am next. There is not a soul here on earth better than me. They may think they are - but they better think again.

Yet - are there ones out there that are more hateful and evil than me? You can bet your last dollar that there are. Would some of them harm or kill me because they don't like the way I look? Why you'd better believe it. Or let's just put it this way. I believe it, and that is what matters to me. And in this is why I will never venture into area where I would already know that I'm hated thus. Nor would I ever venture to places where I already knew that I'd hear that word directed at me and already know that I might not ever be heard from again.

To each is own man. Let's just agree to disagree here - for I see that we'll never agree on this one. You can have that word - and do whatever you want to do w/it. Me - myself and I can live w/o it - and I can't use it in any of my business.

Thanks a lot for that information, Scratcher Hopefully, this music will be rereleased sometime in the future. I'd be very interested in hearing it. I had been meaning to ask the forum about Bobby Taylor and hadn't gotten around to doing so. I have actually never heard any of his Motown stuff or the music outside of Motown before, unfortunately and have been interested.

SB, I'm African-American. I've been AA all my life. Wouldn't change if I could.

FYI: I've file enough complaints with the Ohio Civil Rights Commission and the EEOC to wallpaper a small room. It's a misnomer to think much less suggest that I don't know about racism.

I live in Akron, which is close to Cleveland, one of the most segregated cities in America. Akron is like a southern town and is not the place to walk out of a drugstore, if you're Black, with a tube of Chapstick you didn't pay for cause you'll probably see some jail time. Judges be setting and making examples here whenever courts in session.

That being said I must admit my time in the deep south has been limited. Racisim in the north was/is more subtle.

I hear you can drive a few miles outside of Atlanta and come upon stores that won't serve blacks. I've never experienced that. I had to wait a long time once but I eventually got my burger, fries and root beer. I did a mini sit in. The waitress served every white person in the place before even making eye contact with me; including people who came after me. I was about 14 at the time.

My mother was always afraid for me to go south as a kid to visit relatives because she said I didn't know how to act...that I'll be hung. Seriously. So I never got to go, everybody else did, but not me. I would get into fights with little white boys when she took me to town (or anywhere for that matter) as a kid; I got into fights with little black boys too but that didn't concern her as much.

Not to trivalized this but when I was growing up there were about six or seven bad words, now there are only two, three if you include the one mentioned here. I never understood what made a word bad. Why are F--k and Sh-t bad? And what made damn and bastard unbad? I agree with whoever said we get a little too worked up over words.

But bro I guess my point is - that you might need to ask the Haters why it is that they love to use that word when describing - Blacks/African Americans. You might have to ask them - why they hate us so much - and why they are still willing to recruit youngsters to hate us.

And remember - that we are just talking about the haters here. Most of them still use that word profusely. And just by using that word amongst themselves stirs up the passions of these haters and their followers. They do not have another word that they use to describe us. That one word alone - truly riles them up, and they cry out w/rage in their hearts about their hate for us. Do a search on hate groups. There are hundreds of them - and it's really scary and troubling if one really thinks about it deeply. Better yet - don't go there.

Again - I took no offense of your mentioning the name the group at one time used. I took exception to the fact that some feel that others should view the word as an innocent one - and especially when the haters of Blacks/African Americans - don't view it as such.

TO SB!!!...YOU ARE RIGHT!!!...UNFORTUNATLY THERE ARE STILL HATERS IN THE WORLD!!!..BUT...IT'S ALWAYS A SMALL FEW THAT MAKE ALL THE NOISE!!!...TAKE 100 PEOPLE...*ANY* 100 PEOPLE...AND OUT OF THAT GROUP...YOU'LL HAVE A FEW HATERS...A FEW PERVERTS...A FEW MENTAL CASES...AND THE VAST MAJORITY...PRETTY GOOD PEOPLE!!!...LIFE JUST WORKS THAT WAY!!!...JUST LOOK AT THE BELL CURVE...AND IT EXPLAINS IT ALL!!!...IDIOTS ON THE EDGES...BUT IN THE LARGE MIDDLE...ONCE AGAIN...BASICALLY GOOD PEOPLE!!!...IT'S BEEN THAT WAY FROM THE BEGINNING OF TIME...AND IT'LL BE THAT WAY FOR ALL TIME!!!...SO...IT'S OUT RESPONSIBILITY...THOSE OF US IN THE MIDDLE...TO MAKE SURE THAT THE LUNATIC FRINGES STAY RIGHT THERE...ON THE FRINGE...AND KEEP THEM IN CHECK!!!...STUBASS

I'd like to know if there is a map of places to be afraid to go and how often they're updated?Is it researched on a block by block basis and what percentage of that area must be filled with openly hateful people before it is declared a danger zone?Am I being a smart ass?Damn right!Am I trying to insult anyone?No.I just get frustrated because some of the best people I've met is when I've traveled outside of my daily circles.I am frustrated and upset,not just by words,but also by actions.This used to be a neighborhood that I wasn't afraid to visit because I knew it was filled with friendly people who wanted to share their interests as well as learn from one another.Now it is reminding me of another forum that once was great and turned into a "us & them" forum ,the division line is not only races,but opinions and the freedom to express them.All the issues are important,but should be addressed in a way that can bring us together instead of tearing us apart.We need to remember why we have come here and if it's not for positive reasons then we're not here for the right reason.That's not to say negative issues shouldn't be discussed,but that they should have a positive direction in sight.Not to make someone look foolish,wrong or evil.I don't have a problem with any thread on any topic using any word as long as the motivations are pure and have good intent.Personal attacks or accusations should not be permitted in any form and should be deleted or edited.If we can't have a discussion without insults,then it's not a discussion and serves no purpose but to divide instead of gain understanding.If two people are having a problem it should be only those two people discussing it via e-mail outside of the forum.People jumping in to suport one or the other only widens the gap and fans the flames that threaten to consume the forum that has brought us all joy.

What a lot of people don't understand is, I was born, raised until the age of 12 N the south, where one of the largest slave trades took place. I didn't just hear or read about segregation, I lived it. Whenever I hear that word, or my eyes saw the Confederate Flag, yess, it bothers me extremely. I was taught at a tender age, about slavery, (the ones B4 me), name calling, strange fruit hanging on trees & picnics. No, I'm not complaining about segregation, and although I was NEVER taught 2 hate, I knew my limits, I knew I was hated 4 no reason but because of the skin I was N, and my history.I was taught 2 Love, respect and B proud ...I am very sensitive about the word >>, No, I hate no one, was never taught 2. It was almost branded N my soul, NEVER 2 4get, NEVER allow myself 2 B disrespected, and treat others as they treat me no matter what color the skin is. When I first came 2 Detroit, I tried 2 run away, back 2 the south where I came from, only because I wasn't used 2 being so close around caucasians, I didn't know how 2 deal with it. Detroit was like a new world 2 me, I had 2 learn how 2 live all over again. So, sometimes words can trigger a thought that was thought 2 B dead, but that word is very much alive & well, (sometimes used by African Americans) I can't change that, but I wasn't taught that way, and I didn't teach my children that way. If I'm suppose 2 B among friends/assiciates of any kind, I shouldn't have 2 B reminded of that word, N any way. I don't play with it, it's not a positive word, it was never meant 2 B... Thanx 4 giving me the time 2 express some of my feelings about the word >,it cuts like a knife. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Medusa

Look, Will you folks get off of this shit already. It is getting old and tired. BACK TO THE MUSIC...PLEASE ALREADY!!!!! Please go somewhere else and hash this shit out and let us have OUR forum back!!!!! Thank you.

I have fought against the word nigger my whole life too,but it is all about context and intent.I have never used it in my day to day life,but am not offended if it it used in context or historicaly.If it was the name of a band song or movie,it just is and we can't pretend otherwise or never mention it.The movie/book The Spook Who Sat By The Door was mentioned and I would think that to be called a Spook could be just as offensive depending on the context.I don't hat Fred Williamson for the movie Soul Of Nigger Charley or Richard Pryor for That Nigger's Crazy.N.W.A. is a whole different story as the context is negative.The former name of Bobby Taylor and the Vancovers is the former and not the later.

I too would prefer just to talk about music here,but the real world will always creep in.Music is the great uniter,but some people can't hear the music in their life.I too would prefer to discuss these issues elsewhere and invite anyone who wants to to e-mail me instead of posting it here.

Stillsoulin Yeah I know what your saying. But I am not 100% sure plus its been quite a while since I have actually listened to it. I will have to hear it again I have never had a copy of it myself can you tell me a bit more about the Integra Label. I would be very grateful. cheers mel.

BOBBY TAYLOR -A story he told me and my mates when he came to Birmingham a couple of years or so ago."Back home they play my records on the radio and announce them as "old school".I get right on that phone and ask the deejay -did they teach you what 1+1 is?They always answer 2.Before they can say any anymore I tell them they went to the same type of f***** school as me.So whats this old school all about? It gets them everytime" Bobby,s words.It sounded amusing at the time.It was that day his 60th Birthday and he had just split up from his wife? and had some interesting views on that subject.Not safe to repeat. He certainly had a wicked sense of humour and also put on great show. I hope he is not distracted by the "alternative discussion" should he see this posting.I think he could tell some funny stories.No offence intended to any posters.

Scratcher, I think that Medusa(if I may clarify)was speaking to Ralph's attempt to "ghettoize" anything having to do with African Americans by referring it to the "discussion" of African American culture... No need for either of you to be upset with one another...

The real ire should be, and I believe it was, directed at Ralph the died-in-the-wool racist who attempted to lecture me on dealing with oppression and rejection in the first African American Discussion Thread, while thoroughly coming apart at the seams over some simple words I'd written... I laughed so freakin' hard I couldn't even respond to this clown, payaso, pagliacci(smile!)... Ralph, I assure the girl didn't reject ya because you were too dark... I am darker than you, and I know damned well that whenever I am rejected by a woman it's because my rap and my game was mad lame(laugh!)...

And Stu, you should not be defending his so-called "tongue-in-cheek" humor... I've got some tongue-and-cheek humor about white folks that might be taken quite personally at this board... Out of respect to all who visit the board, White, Blacks, Latinos, Asians, and others, I keep that shit to myself... HOWEVER... If folk like Ralph wanna dance, we gone do it, his Sicilian background not withstanding... Keep it up Ralph...

SORRY ISAIAH!!!...I HAPPEN TO KNOW RALPH AND HIS FAMILY QUITE WELL...GOING BACK LONG BEFORE ANYONE ELSE ON THIS FORUM...AND I CAN TELL YOU...HE'S FULL ON STANDUP...AND IF YOU FEEL THAT RALPH REPRESENTS SOME SORT OF HIDDEN AGENDA...I'M HERE TO TELL YOU THAT THERES NO HOPE FOR THE WORLD IF THAT WERE THE CASE!!!...THIS AIN'T NO ASS KISSING...JUST FACT...AND ONCE WE'VE LOST ALL OUR SENSE OF HUMOR...WE'RE ALL IN BIG TROUBLE!!!...PEACE TO YOU...STUBASS

BY THE WAY ISAIAH...I'D LOVE TO HEAR SOME OF YOUR "TONGUE IN CHEEK" HUMOR...IT WOULD SHOW A MORE HUMAN SIDE TO YOU (NO DISRESPECT INTENDED THERE)...AND IF IT'S IN FACT HUMOR...I'D APPRECIATE IT!!!...I LOVE A GOOD LAUGH (JUST LOOK AT WHAT GOES ON BETWEEN BFOSTER & ME...IT'S FUN AND NOBODY IS INSULTING MY UPBRINGING THERE)...AND WOULD LOVE TO SEE THAT SIDE OF YOU!!!...LAUGHTER IS THE UNIVERSAL "BEST MEDICINE"...AND WITH YOUR EXTENSIVE VOCABULARY...YOU COULD PROBABLY COME UP WITH SOME REALLY GOOD SHIT!!!...DICK GREGORY HAS SHOWN US...THAT YOU CAN BE HUMEROUS...AND A CONCERNED CITIZEN AT THE SAME TIME!!!...STUBASS

Enough Already, In all honesty I don't like to censure anyone's opinion, but this may be going a little to far. Bobby Eli just called me and I must admit I am rather upset over Isaiah's attack on my character and have considered deleting the entire thread until I realized this was originally dedicated to my old friend Bobby Taylor. Maybe Isaiah will just pick up his hate and go elsewhere. ( that's a hint Isaiah. )

No Stu, I will not do no freakin Tap dance routines while knuckleheads like Ralph and his ilk do personal attacks - like the one he did in the first thread... I let that go, didn't I..? I let it go because this jerk was telling me how to deal with circumstances which he, himself, has never faced... Circumstances completely outside the bounds of the discussion... And While engaging in this stereotypical tirade, this clown crumbled like a stale fuckin' cookie... Couldn't keep his cool to save his life... That's why I let it go, because Ralph is an unintelligible fool who can't engage in a conversation without trotting out his little ignorant and racist sterotypes... He could have kept my name out of his post, but this unregenerate racist couldn't help himself... No, Stu, you and no other White man defines for me, what is and isn't racist... When you've experienced papa, you have an antennae for it... Frankly, folk can maintain these attitudes... It is their right to think however they please, and I respect that right... But it is a hard-earned PRIVILEGE to openly express that nonsense... Like there is a price to be paid for exercising your rights... No, Stu, it's like my mother used to tell me, "I can't hear what you are saying, because what you do speaks to loud..." You claim this clown aint no racist, but what he said up at the top of this thread demonstrates just what a racist that he is...

Can we stop all of this? Personally, as a proud and aware African American, I think the N word is a word that was born of wickedness, evil, ignorance and pain and should be wiped off the planet, but I'm bright enough to know that it won't. I'm also bright enough to know that it is not a term of endearment, so anyone who refers to me using that term, whatever ethnic background they be will get a rude awakening. Now, having said that, I'd like to put the issue to bed. I've made my point and I give the people on this forum credit for having enough common sense to understand it. I don't have to beat the issue to death, right? Thank you.

Hey Ralphie-Boy! I've known you longer than anyone on this forum, and if you ever need a character reference, please don't hesitate to call me! For someone who has worked and lived with African Americans as long as you have I find it hard to believe that anyone could ever call you a racist. Oh please...let's get with it...it's boring already.

IT'S INTERESTING THAT MANY PEOPLE SOMEWHAT FAMILIAR WITH MUSIC WILL REMEMBER BOBBY TAYLOR FOR HIS DISCOVERING THE JACKSON FIVE (ONCE IT WAS EXPOSED THAT THE DIANA ROSS SO CALLED DISCOVERY OF THE J-5 WAS JUST MOTOWN PROPOGANDA)...THEN HIS RECORDING CAREER!!!...STUBASS

I've dug out my old BTV record and revise my original opinion of BT's voice from having a clear crackly tenor to a high smokey tenor with a smooth transition to falsetto, Scratcher. Do you agree with that. Unfortunately that's about it for my BT records. I'm waiting for Kevgo to come to my burg if he's the travelling record man.

We were all staying at the old Roberts Motel at 37th and Indiana in Chicago during the time that I was the git man for the Vibrations.

One day the Vancouvers keyboard player(also vocalist) I believe his name was Robbie told me that he was mugged and robbed right near the cleaners around the corner from the motel. shortly thereafter I also had to go to the cleaners to retrieve my gaudy purple crepe suit with silver stuff running up the legs and around the lapel. As I was leaving the cleaners I was approached by possibly the same crew. They said something like "hey mf , where you goin with that suit?? Mind you it was 1968 and I kinda had that quasi hippie thing goin on. I tried to keep my cool and I told them that I was the git man with the Vibrations and after eyeing me up and down with a stare of disbelief, they let me slide.