Another look at the designer vs. niche debate: Does it have to do with perception?

During this last Super Bowl, I saw an ad for the $20,000 2011 Hyundai Sonata family sedan. The ad message was clear about the car's 14-step paint process:

"Better paint quality than the Mercedes CLS550. Think about it."

Now, I'm not saying that one should choose the Sonata over the CLS550: Hyundai also makes their Genesis, which would be a closer comparison, as the Mercedes-Benz CLS550 is a $72,400 luxury car. Still, if one reads the April Auto issue of Consumer Reports, the reader survey points out that Hyundai is one of the highest-quality and best automakers now (way up from junk status a decade ago), whereas Mercedes (with one exception) ranks near the bottom in terms of quality. Yet many people still associate Mercedes with prestige, quality, and being the best and Hyundai with producing OK (if not junk) cars, a remnant of the days of the old Mercedes models and the Hyundai Excel, respectively.

I see a similar correlation to the fragrance world. I own several fragrances that don't cost much or are reasonably priced such as Giorgio for Men, Mugler Cologne, PdN New York (my SOTD: a wonderful, reasonably priced niche), and Narciso Rodriguez for Him. They all hold their own to the likes of the best $100+ niche fragrances from the likes of Creed, By Kilian, Carthusia, and the like.

At the same time, some of those $100+ niches are a mixed bag. I've smelled some that are as bad as certain newer designer releases, though I won't name names to protect the innocent. On the other hand, some are so good and special that you want to buy them on the spot (case in point: By Kilian's Straight to Heaven). But some people buy niche fragrances because of some special rare ingredient, name on the bottle (we're looking at you, Creed), or magical story and not their nose instinct. It's like a car buyer buying a Mercedes over a Hyundai without doing their homework, expecting better reliability than their Chevy, only to have it in the dealer service department often.

Like the Hyundai commercial, we should "think about it": is our fragrance collection based on what our nose wanted to buy, or is it based on perception alone?

Re: Another look at the designer vs. niche debate: Does it have to do with perception?

My collection is based on value. That is, how much I enjoy the fragrance compared to how much it costs. Something like B*Men to me is of a low price to performance ratio. A bottle cost me less than $30 and it's one of my favorite scents. On the other end other end of the spectrum, my Amouage Tribute cost almost $300 and it's contents are a tenth (or less) of the B*Men bottle. But it's just such an incredible fragrance that it justified the purchase. I don't feel like plunking down another $300 for more bottles of Amouage because I don't enjoy any of them nearly as much as Tribute.

Honestly, as far as Serge Lutens, By Kilian and L'Artisan are concerned, despite their reputation on this board and the many samples I've tried, I just cannot justify the purchase of any of them. There's always something about them that makes me balk at their prices compared to their performance. Usually it's an off note that doesn't work for me or weak longevity, which is a major deciding factor for me. Fragrance is one of the few luxury items that I spend my hard-earned disposable income on. I want to get as much enjoyment out of that money as possible.

So no, as far as I'm concerned I don't buy based on the perceptions or supposed prestige. I buy what smells good to me as long as I feel that the price to performance value is there. It's like if I wanted a sports car would I buy a Porsche Boxster or a Subaru WRX? The choice would be simple for me because I based it on price to performance. The Subaru wins hands-down because after you compare the similar performance it falls back on the price of the two. You also have to take into account the upkeep of the Porsche when there is nobody in your area who can fix or maintain them.

Re: Another look at the designer vs. niche debate: Does it have to do with perception?

Actually, Hyundai makes a $60,000 + car that pretty much beats the pants off the CLS550 and comes with a better warranty. It's called the Equus and has a 366 HP V8. Some of the executives at Hyundai Motors America drive them.

Re: Another look at the designer vs. niche debate: Does it have to do with perception?

I buy the cheapest option that adequately satisfies my craving for a certain fragrance type. For example, to mention two similar fragrances, Fracas and Beyond Love, I can't imagine myself ever buying Beyond Love in preference to Fracas. Not only do I like Fracas more, Fracas is far more affordable.

Conversely, there really isn't a cheap option for something like Tubereuse Criminelle.

Re: Another look at the designer vs. niche debate: Does it have to do with perception?

Originally Posted by PorkFat

My collection is based on value. That is, how much I enjoy the fragrance compared to how much it costs.

Originally Posted by PorkFat

It's like if I wanted a sports car would I buy a Porsche Boxster or a Subaru WRX? The choice would be simple for me because I based it on price to performance. The Subaru wins hands-down because after you compare the similar performance it falls back on the price of the two. You also have to take into account the upkeep of the Porsche when there is nobody in your area who can fix or maintain them.

I agree with both of these statements. Especially the Subaru part. I'm biased because I do drive a 2000 Impreza 2.5RS. Boxer rumble, rruurrrrrrrrbubububububub. I feel if an expensive fragrance that costs 3-4 times more than something much cheaper that smells just like it, I really can't justify the price. If the fragrance, no matter the label, smells incredibly unique where I won't mistaken it for anything else and I LOVE it, by all means, I'll pay whatever it costs (within the range I can afford, that is, I do have a limit).

Re: Another look at the designer vs. niche debate: Does it have to do with perception?

Originally Posted by PorkFat

My collection is based on value. That is, how much I enjoy the fragrance compared to how much it costs. Something like B*Men to me is of a low price to performance ratio. A bottle cost me less than $30 and it's one of my favorite scents. On the other end other end of the spectrum, my Amouage Tribute cost almost $300 and it's contents are a tenth (or less) of the B*Men bottle. But it's just such an incredible fragrance that it justified the purchase. I don't feel like plunking down another $300 for more bottles of Amouage because I don't enjoy any of them nearly as much as Tribute.

Honestly, as far as Serge Lutens, By Kilian and L'Artisan are concerned, despite their reputation on this board and the many samples I've tried, I just cannot justify the purchase of any of them. There's always something about them that makes me balk at their prices compared to their performance. Usually it's an off note that doesn't work for me or weak longevity, which is a major deciding factor for me. Fragrance is one of the few luxury items that I spend my hard-earned disposable income on. I want to get as much enjoyment out of that money as possible.

So no, as far as I'm concerned I don't buy based on the perceptions or supposed prestige. I buy what smells good to me as long as I feel that the price to performance value is there. It's like if I wanted a sports car would I buy a Porsche Boxster or a Subaru WRX? The choice would be simple for me because I based it on price to performance. The Subaru wins hands-down because after you compare the similar performance it falls back on the price of the two. You also have to take into account the upkeep of the Porsche when there is nobody in your area who can fix or maintain them.

With some motorcycles, such as the Japanese models, you get more performance than your Harley-Davidson. I know what I have said is heresy to some, but its the truth. You *do* get the prestige and the *noise* of those Harley pipes, however!

Scent is the same thing. It's a tradeoff of price, quality and prestige...

"No elegance is possible without it...perfume is a part of you." Gabrielle "Coco" Chanel

Re: Another look at the designer vs. niche debate: Does it have to do with perception?

A scent I like is a scent I like. I give little thought to it. I enjoy Versace L'Homme as well as Rose 31. I like RGPH as much as Vintage Tabarome (not quite as much, but close enough). It's through being in here that I've discovered many of my favorites.

I'm not above saying I enjoy some of the image that Creed has cultivated, but if I'm not wowed by a frag I don't buy it. There's a lot of Creeds I don't like. The only one I ever bought on reputation is probably my first bottle of GIT pre-Basenotes, well over 10 years ago.

Re: Another look at the designer vs. niche debate: Does it have to do with perception?

This debate never changes anyone's mind, yet it continues to pop up. I no longer feel the need to convince people of what they have no interest in being convinced of. It's smoke and mirrors in EVERY industry, every single one. The fact still remains that designer fragrances pander to a far larger audience, and for the most part are "made" by accounting departments that seek too minimize costs as much as possible. It's like your corporations vs. your mom and pops. Both are in it to make money, both will try to lure you in by catering to something you like (designer fragrances with their ads and models, big names, fancy packaging/ corporations with ads, large stores, attractive pricing. Niche with an air of prestige, high prices, exclusivity, tales of mysterious pasts,etc./ mom and pops with quaint stores, good customer service etc.). People need to stop defending either one, and start experiencing fragrances for what's in the bottle, not WHO'S on the bottle, or what's on the price tag, it means nothing in the end. There is shit in the niche market and there is shit in the designer market. I just happen to be of the opinion, that the high points in niche fragrances eclipse the high points in designer fragrances. Yet, I will never discriminate based upon the price.

Re: Another look at the designer vs. niche debate: Does it have to do with perception?

Originally Posted by mtgprox05

start experiencing fragrances for what's in the bottle, not WHO'S on the bottle, or what's on the price tag, it means nothing in the end.

While price, label, etc should mean nothing, and to many basenoters do mean very lttle, the fact of the matter is that to a huge number of people who buy fragrance these do mean something; in many cases quite a lot. Many people that buy fragrances (the vast majority of whom have never heard nor seen Basenotes) aren't buying a fragrance because they want a great vetiver (or whatever), they buy fragrance because they want to buy into the fantasy that the fragrance companies are selling, the actual scent (as long as it smells pleasant), matters very little. That is partially why the Creed marketing works; people aren't just buying a fragrance, they think that they are buying into a long and storied history, and wearing the scents associated with the rich and powerful, the successful and popular; in short, the fragrance gives them a connection to the people who they would like to be and it is this connection that many people seek.

Last edited by surreality; 27th February 2010 at 11:38 PM.

Seek not the favor of the multitude; it is seldom got by honest and lawful means. But seek the testimony of few; and number not voices, but weigh them. - Immanuel Kant

Re: Another look at the designer vs. niche debate: Does it have to do with perception?

After just testing a bunch of designer stuff at the store, and then coming back and smelling some Amouage Reflection - it's just undoubtedly clear in my mind how much objectively higher quality this scent is than everything I just tested (Edition Blanche, Shiseido Zen, Varvatos Artisan (though I really like this one), and the dreaded Le Male).

Do I expect everyone to like it more than everything at Macy's? No, of course not. I love a lot of designer scents, too. But the high quality niche (and most niche is not, in my opinion, high quality) really is objectively different than almost all of the designer fare.

I guess you could say I agree with mtgprox's points, and he has said it more eloquently than I. There are still a number of designer scents in my top 11, but I tend to think that the high point of niche do tend to eclipse the high points of designer fragrances.. even in cases where I still prefer the designer scent because it suits me more. A number of my top 11 scents I only rate 4 stars because they have some kind of flaw. Fleur du Male, for instance, is too synthetic and lasts way too long. But still, I love it and haven't found a niche scent that fits the exact same role and betters it, and so I still prefer it even to niche scents which i may think are objectively better in materials, quality, composition, etc.

The most important aspect of a scent in regards to actually owning and loving it is how well the scent suits me, fits my look, and fits a niche in my wardrobe. This is more important, generally speaking, than the cost or quality of materials (as long as they don't detract from the overall scent.) Another example: I think Red Vetyver smells more natural and may use higher quality ingredients, and definitely has a higher concentration than Terre d'Hermes, but I like the composition of TdH more and find that it better suits my personality and style, and hence much prefer TdH even while admitting that objectively Red Vetyver may be "better."

Re: Another look at the designer vs. niche debate: Does it have to do with perception?

Originally Posted by StylinLA

Yeah surreality, but people hanging in here should step above the hype.

Why? What sets basenoters apart from the rest of the consuming public? It's not like we join basenotes and our psychology changes with the press of a button.

Originally Posted by StylinLA

Who cares for whom or when Vintage Tabarome was really developed? I don't care that RGPH can be had for $20 online.

The simple fact remains that there is a large segment of the fragrance buying community that does care.

Originally Posted by StylinLA

How many people in here look anything like the beautiful people in the commercials for designer frags?

And that is exactly why people buy into the fantasy that is fragrance. The average perfume consumer may not be capable of looking like the "beautiful people" but they can wear what they wear. It allows the average perfume consumer to bask in the reflected glory of those who they will never be, but wish they were.

Originally Posted by StylinLA

There's a ton of objective and great noses in here that pay little heed to designer or niche. It seems silly to me to reject a frag out of hand because you "don't do designer" or "don't do niche."

Objective? That is a huge claim and one I am not sure has any claim to being even remotely true. Great noses? We would all like to think that we have good noses but in reality, very few basenoters would be able to correctly identify more than a few dozen aromachemicals and essential oils when put to the test. It takes years of full time work (not just sniffing and sampling perfumes) of sniffing the components of perfumery individually and in combination with other smells to develop a nose worthy of really being called a nose.

I agree it is rather silly to dismiss a fragrance just because of a label but as long as basenoters are people (people with basic beliefs, biases etc) there will be basenoters that get caught up in the whole "designer/niche" thing.

Last edited by surreality; 28th February 2010 at 02:45 PM.

Seek not the favor of the multitude; it is seldom got by honest and lawful means. But seek the testimony of few; and number not voices, but weigh them. - Immanuel Kant

Re: Another look at the designer vs. niche debate: Does it have to do with perception?

I think people may expect more from niche than designer, at least I know I do

BUT at the same time, your assuming everyone blind buys, I admit I use to blind buy a lot, but never niche.
now I realize that I should not blind buy at all, unless I get it at a bargain price.
either way, I realized now more than ever, after many losses and put downs, going on reputation will get you beat, financially and spiritually

Re: Another look at the designer vs. niche debate: Does it have to do with perception?

Originally Posted by surreality

I agree it is rather silly to dismiss a fragrance just because of a label but as long as basenoters are people (people with basic beliefs, biases etc) there will be basenoters that get caught up in the whole "designer/niche" thing.

We're on the same page really. I just urge people in here to be open minded. I was on the path to niche snobbery before I started playing around in here and scents like RGPH, Dior Homme and Versace L'Homme kept popping up and getting a lot of good feedback.

I'm not inferring everyone in here is a great nose and can provide a break down of a scent. I sure can't. But if you poke around in here to check out most scents, you'll get a great cross section of reviews and thoughts - some based on an analytical view of the notes; some just generally based on the overall scent.

Re: Another look at the designer vs. niche debate: Does it have to do with perception?

Originally Posted by surreality

Why? What sets basenoters apart from the rest of the consuming public? It's not like we join basenotes and our psychology changes with the press of a button.

Really? People on these boards are completely different than than the rest of the consuming public. There's a reason you end up on a site like this. It's because you have a higher appreciation for the topic than the rest of the consuming public. And by contributing in posting on the boards you set yourself apart even farther. As I've said before, if you're on this site, your appreciation for fragrance is no longer on par with the rest of the public, you are now a hobbyist. And what's the point in participating in a hobby, if you're going to deny yourself the pleasure of exploring it completely?

Re: Another look at the designer vs. niche debate: Does it have to do with perception?

Originally Posted by mtgprox05

Really? People on these boards are completely different than than the rest of the consuming public. There's a reason you end up on a site like this. It's because you have a higher appreciation for the topic than the rest of the consuming public. And by contributing in posting on the boards you set yourself apart even farther. As I've said before, if you're on this site, your appreciation for fragrance is no longer on par with the rest of the public, you are now a hobbyist. And what's the point in participating in a hobby, if you're going to deny yourself the pleasure of exploring it completely?

The fact that one ends up on basenotes does not mean that one is a hobbyist. Just think basenotes has 30,000 + members (partly for the fact that one cannot cancel one's membership) yet there ios a cadre of regular posters that numbers MAYBE 500. I might accept your argument for the regular posters but the fact remains that for most of the other people that join are people looking for suggestions for the "perfect" frag, want validation for ther choice of choice of fragrance; the majority of people that join up are the regular consuming public, those who consider themselves hobbyists are in the minority.

Last edited by surreality; 28th February 2010 at 11:00 PM.

Seek not the favor of the multitude; it is seldom got by honest and lawful means. But seek the testimony of few; and number not voices, but weigh them. - Immanuel Kant

Re: Another look at the designer vs. niche debate: Does it have to do with perception?

Originally Posted by surreality

The fact that one ends up on basenotes does not mean that one is a hobbyist. Just think basenotes has 30,000 + members (partly for the fact that one cannot cancel one's membership) yet there ios a cadre of regular posters that numbers MAYBE 500. I might accept your argument for the regular posters but the fact remains that for most of the other people that join are people looking for suggestions for the "perfect" frag, want validation for ther choice of choice of fragrance; the majority of people that join up are the regular consuming public, those whjo consioder themselves hobbyists are in the minority.

No you're right, and thinking about it now, I'd agree. That those that may casually read through BN, may be just conscious consumers, but I stand by the statement that, those that contribute by posting, are now participating in a hobby, and shouldn't limit themselves by setting boundaries.

Re: Another look at the designer vs. niche debate: Does it have to do with perception?

People buy niche because they simply don't want to smell like the rest of the crowd nor as average-Joe.
It's that simple and for that, they are willing to pay extra.
There is also a psychological trick happening here called marketing, and we perceive expensive/inaccessible/rare things as very good.

By Kilian - A Taste of Heaven is the only EDP that lasts 24+ on my skin, and it's made only from natural ingredients. That's the quality I was looking for.

Re: Another look at the designer vs. niche debate: Does it have to do with perception?

Originally Posted by mtgprox05

And what's the point in participating in a hobby, if you're going to deny yourself the pleasure of exploring it completely?

If my hobby were collecting exotic cars from the 40's would I be denying myself pleasure because I refused to buy a 1954 Corvette? Or if I collected watches and decided that I did not even want to consider collecting 80's calculator watches, would I be denying my own pleasure? Of course not; after all it is my hobby and I get to define what I what to include or exclude from my collection. The same with perfume; just because one like perfume and collects bottles does not mean that one is denying themselves pleasure because the collect only niche or designer.

Seek not the favor of the multitude; it is seldom got by honest and lawful means. But seek the testimony of few; and number not voices, but weigh them. - Immanuel Kant

Re: Another look at the designer vs. niche debate: Does it have to do with perception?

Originally Posted by mtgprox05

No you're right, and thinking about it now, I'd agree. That those that may casually read through BN, may be just conscious consumers, but I stand by the statement that, those that contribute by posting, are now participating in a hobby, and shouldn't limit themselves by setting boundaries.

There are probably thousands of posters that posted 10, 20 maybe even 100 posts yet are not hobbyists but just interested consumers who want to be a little more informed than others. The act of posting does not confer hobbyist status on a person any more than does membership in the group.

Last edited by surreality; 28th February 2010 at 11:12 PM.

Seek not the favor of the multitude; it is seldom got by honest and lawful means. But seek the testimony of few; and number not voices, but weigh them. - Immanuel Kant

Re: Another look at the designer vs. niche debate: Does it have to do with perception?

Originally Posted by trapper

People buy niche because they simply don't want to smell like the rest of the crowd nor as average-Joe.
It's that simple and for that, they are willing to pay extra.
There is also a psychological trick happening here called marketing, and we perceive expensive/inaccessible/rare things as very good.

By Kilian - A Taste of Heaven is the only EDP that lasts 24+ on my skin, and it's made only from natural ingredients. That's the quality I was looking for.

A Taste of Heaven is definitely NOT 100% natural. None of the By Kilians are.

Re: Another look at the designer vs. niche debate: Does it have to do with perception?

Originally Posted by trapper

People buy niche because they simply don't want to smell like the rest of the crowd nor as average-Joe.
It's that simple and for that, they are willing to pay extra.
There is also a psychological trick happening here called marketing, and we perceive expensive/inaccessible/rare things as very good.