I discovered a new problem. I thought everything would work now and then found it didn't. But I've found the reason.

I installed Previewer 2.7. I installed the updated InDesign Plugin 0.972. This has two important changes over 0.971:
1. The font bug is fixed. They have done it by using font-size specified in rem instead of pt. Great news - no need in future for me to edit the output to correct this.
2. It allows the start postition to be set. You just insert a text anchor and during the export you say which text anchor the start postion should point at.

So I output a new file from it from my tiny two page test book. It is supposed to start at the beginning of chapter 1. I put that .mobi file on my Kindle 3 Keyboard, running 3.4, and it didn't work. It started on the title page. I looked at the unpacked and unzipped kindlegen source and it looked correct to me.

Next, without changing anything, I took the .opf file from the kindlegen source and dropped it onto the Previewer. It created a new file. I put that on my Kindle, and it worked perfectly.

After some thought I looked at the Export to Kindle folder under plugins under the InDesign program and found kindlegen.exe there, as expected. Its date was from back in July. So they have failed to supply the new Kindlegen with the new plugin. I replaced the file with kindlegen.exe from 2.7, and went into InDesign and exported again. This time it all works!!!!!!!!

So I am now in the happy position of being able to create books in InDesign with no editing of the output files being required.

My “problem” seems to be the reverse of this in that all my preview files function correctly, but the PURCHASED version does not open in the right spot – but I’m posting here (I know it's old) in the hope someone can help, because Amazon don’t seem to be able to (yet).

Summary:

This applies to 2 books. (The only ones I have in KDP)

MOBI uploaded to KDP opens at designated page (which is before TOC) and also “Go to beginning” works to go to the same location. Confirmed in previewer (all devices), Kindle For PC and also if I load into “Personal Docs” by emailing the file to both my Paperwhite and iPad.

MOBI Preview file downloaded from the KDP Bookshelf (post Amazon "conversion" process and after uploading the file above) also behaves as expected and identical to above.

I also have PURCHASED versions of both these books to check the final customer experience (and I didn’t do this until recently) and horror of horrors, neither of them open (or “Go to Beginning”) at the correct place – not in Previewer, Kindle For PC or my iPad or Paperwhite.

One of them opens to the first html file after the TOC html file (looking at my epub in Sigil), which happens to be the FIRST item linked in the TOC.

The other opens to the second html file after the TOC html, which is also the FIRST item linked in the TOC.

(horrible urls in that second example, not sure if that makes a difference to this issue though)

So I double-checked everything, reverted to using the “old” convert to Mobi in Calibre, re-uploaded and asked for a forced update of the purchased versions to my devices – still same issue (I cleared all the "last page read" settings before doing this).

In the meantime, I have requested twice that Amazon double-check the opening points/Go To Beginning and told them exactly where they should expect them to open, and they have told me on two occasions that for them, the books are opening as I describe they should (one reply confirming they open before the TOC).

Unpacking the purchased azw version using KindleUnpack in Calibre shows the following entry in the OPF (note the 2 x type=”text”, the second one points to the correct anchor, the first points to the “wrong” opening; the devices are using the first obviously):

I just downloaded the Sample file for one of the books and can replicate the wrong behavior.

So as far as I can see, on conversion to azw format to go live in the Kindle Store, Amazon appear to be incorrectly adding another “start” location to the first Nav point after the TOC, when one is already specified.

The fact that the tell me it is working OK for them tells me they must only be testing my uploaded files/preview files. Anyone downloading a sample will see it isn’t correct (both books are designed to open at the first page after the cover).

Any ideas? Have you encountered this issue? How should I raise it to Amazon?

The books in question are here (if you want to test the sample files yourself – or ask me for the full files Preview & Purchased to see the difference)

Thanks for bearing with the long post ... and tell me if I should make this a new thread elsewhere. I've done lots of reading here and this seemed to be the thread where the experts (on this "start page" issue at least) hung out!

I received a reply from KDP support - and it is as I thought. They casually "Add" a new "Start Reading Location" without telling us (the first Nav point after the TOC). Their reason is that this is "usually how it is done". Here is the reply (which is very polite!).

Quote:

Hello Robert,

We appreciate your attention to our recent notification. Thank you for letting us know that you've republished a corrected file for your title "132+ Delicious Salads, Dressings And Dips".

I reviewed the latest file and confirmed that the issues are resolved. The revised file is in "Publishing" status, and should be updated on the website within 12 hours.

Further, with regard to the "Go to Beginning" and "Start Reading Location" of your titles, i.e. the page at which your book opens for customers, please note, when a Kindle book is opened on a device or a Kindle app, the book usually begins after the TOC, when the uploaded content is a MOBI/PRC or a NCX/OPF-enabled HTML. This is related to a code called the SRL (Start Reading Location). By default, when MOBI/PRC files are created, the SRL is usually placed where the content begins and not the cover image or the page after cover, and hence, the content opens accordingly.

This Start Reading Location is set at our end once your file is published to the Kindle Store; This is why it is different in the copy that you purchase or the sample that you download from the Store, than the MOBI file that you create or preview before publishing.

I replied with this:

Quote:

Thank you very much for explaining that.

So what you are saying then is that if I code a "Start Reading Location" (which I have) that is BEFORE the TOC, then it will be overridden by the one that is added to the file once it is published by Amazon?

That is confusing!

When you say "By default, when MOBI/PRC files are created, the SRL is usually placed where the content begins and not the cover image or the page after cover ..." then this implies that while this may be "usual" behavior, it is not mandated.

Is there a way to override that? Or must we put up with the TOC always being the first thing in the book - which means, for example, in the "Look Inside" function, if we have a long TOC (such as we do in our recipe books) then it may put off the customer? This is why we shoes to have some introductory matter before the TOC.

Thanks anyway and we will reconsider now where we put that introductory matter!

So it seems we don't really have the level of granular control over "Start" unless it is after the TOC, which means me rethinking some of our layout tactics (shortening TOC and adding sub-TOC later in the book for example).

What is annoying is the hours of work I've put into it and the questions I've asked (and the confirmation from Amazon that my files worked as I say they should!) and only now do they explain that the Preview File created in the Bookshelf may still have changes made to its functionality. Maybe it took a while before it escalated to a Tier 2 support rep.

It might be a small point - avid readers will always skip back to the front of an ebook in my anecdotal experience - if the book is good - I still want control on that "Opening Page" post-purchase, it's an important first impression.

Hmm.. I suspect that what's happening it that Amazon's tools are looking at your uploaded book and seeing that the start of reading position is right at the start of your book. And they've coded an assumption that in that case the creator has NOT set a start of reading position, and so set it to a 'sensible' value. You could test this by having a start of reading position set before the TOC but after the very first position in the book.

Hmm.. I suspect that what's happening it that Amazon's tools are looking at your uploaded book and seeing that the start of reading position is right at the start of your book. And they've coded an assumption that in that case the creator has NOT set a start of reading position, and so set it to a 'sensible' value. You could test this by having a start of reading position set before the TOC but after the very first position in the book.

Thanks pdurrant - in fact that's almost what happened. They simply force a new "start" after the TOC no matter what - but they could at least tell us!!

Anyway, I did post an update (with Amazon KDP Support's answer) but it is stuck in moderation queue. Essentially I need to rework my thinking around the placing of the TOC and front matter -- but Amazon could at least help by having their Preview files perform as per the final "customer version".

I wish my update had been posted (I guess it may come out of the mod's queue at some point!) as the KDP rep admitted that they add it, but here's the snippet:

Quote:

Further, with regard to the "Go to Beginning" and "Start Reading Location" of your titles, i.e. the page at which your book opens for customers, please note, when a Kindle book is opened on a device or a Kindle app, the book usually begins after the TOC, when the uploaded content is a MOBI/PRC or a NCX/OPF-enabled HTML. This is related to a code called the SRL (Start Reading Location). By default, when MOBI/PRC files are created, the SRL is usually placed where the content begins and not the cover image or the page after cover, and hence, the content opens accordingly.

This Start Reading Location is set at our end once your file is published to the Kindle Store; This is why it is different in the copy that you purchase or the sample that you download from the Store, than the MOBI file that you create or preview before publishing.

Some introductory content htmlfile0 (Author welcome; other books; Introduction. A few pages.)

TOC

[Amazon's inserted SRL points to the htmlfile1 below - or more specifically to the first Anchor they find in the following code in 'Start of main body']

Start of main body htmlfile1

Start of main body htmlfile2

etc

In the epub these are all separate html files.

I now have another response from Amazon (to which I replied yes):

Quote:

Hello Robert,

The Start Reading Location (SRL), as we had already stated, starts where the content begins. However if you want the SRL to be starting from the first location that is the cover image of your book, please write back to us with a confirmation and we would set the SRL to the cover image.

Which is what epubs are supposed to do anyway isn't it? It's only Amazon that have this oddity I think?

Hopefully at least now I know what is going on, I'll be able to adjust the book architecture as needed for future books without asking Amazon to manually reset the SRL - bit tedious. And hopefully this informs anyone else looking at this.

OK, that's clear now. You are indeed setting the start to the beginning of the book (the cover isn't part of the book in Kindle formats), and Amazon is noticing this and is generating an 'appropriate' start position.

It's nice that they've got back to you about this point, so hopefully your problems with this title will now be sorted out to your satisfaction.

I suspect that if you set a start position that isn't the very first bit of the text in the book, Amazon will leave the start position alone. But this is just an educated guess. I haven't tested it recently.

Yes I wanted to set the start to the very first piece of text (not necessarily the cover itself, but immediately after) and as far as Amazon's Guidelines suggest, then the start point can be set (though they don't specific the technical process for this).

BUT what they don't explain is that it would need to be set in a specific way, as if it comes before the TOC then they will override that and make the start point happen after the TOC (and it looks like the first Anchor).

As you say, I haven't tried "in the middle of some text" before the TOC in which case, would it work?

I'm not sure it would, as the rep's response (in my post #142) seemed to suggest they would always look at the "Start of content" as being after the TOC and therefore will force that if there isn't one already.

I had a response back from my "yes" response to their offer to reset the SRL:

Quote:

With regards to the "Start Reading Location," We'll need a little time to look into the request.

We'll contact you with more information within 4-5 business days.

Thanks for your patience.

You certainly learn something everyday in the world of self-publishing!

Yes I wanted to set the start to the very first piece of text (not necessarily the cover itself, but immediately after) and as far as Amazon's Guidelines suggest, then the start point can be set (though they don't specific the technical process for this).

BUT what they don't explain is that it would need to be set in a specific way, as if it comes before the TOC then they will override that and make the start point happen after the TOC (and it looks like the first Anchor).

As you say, I haven't tried "in the middle of some text" before the TOC in which case, would it work?

I'm not sure it would, as the rep's response (in my post #142) seemed to suggest they would always look at the "Start of content" as being after the TOC and therefore will force that if there isn't one already.

I had a response back from my "yes" response to their offer to reset the SRL:

You certainly learn something everyday in the world of self-publishing!

Tnx for your input

No, I can tell you from experience, and a long, drawn-out argument with my Tech. Acct. Rep at Amazon, that that (setting a SRL on a text page prior to the TOC) does not work. And trust me when I say, there is absolutely no straight answer on this. (More below the multi-quote)

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdurrant

OK, that's clear now. You are indeed setting the start to the beginning of the book (the cover isn't part of the book in Kindle formats), and Amazon is noticing this and is generating an 'appropriate' start position.

It's nice that they've got back to you about this point, so hopefully your problems with this title will now be sorted out to your satisfaction.

I suspect that if you set a start position that isn't the very first bit of the text in the book, Amazon will leave the start position alone. But this is just an educated guess. I haven't tested it recently.

We had a rather heated argument with Amazon in late January, on this very topic. We had a book we'd published (created, gave to author, to be clear) in December, which had an SRL set to the Introduction, which appeared as front-matter should, before the TOC. So the sequence was:

Cover
Something else
Introduction
TOC
Half-title
Chapter 1

Amazon set the SRL to Chapter 1, which was problematic, as the Intro contained a clue to an actual (real) treasure hunt, the clues for which were scattered not only throughout the book but in physical places that you couldn't possibly find had you not read the Introduction's clues.

As it turns out--mostly--Amazon has now changed their PW (Publishing Workflow, which is everything that occurs after the author clicks "save and publish") to set the SRL to the first "content" that they perceive after the TOC. Ignoring, as it were, the half-title page. We argued with them at some length, and I asked them to tell me exactly when they'd made this change, as we have hundreds of books out there from the end of last year with SRL's that we set, in the ePUB, somewhere in the frontmatter, as authors are convinced that everyone really does want to read their dedication, acknowledgments, thanks, etc., (even though our data doesn't indicate this).

Now, three weeks later, a different conversion house with a different Tech Acct Rep wrote to Amazon, and were told precisely the opposite--that the SRL could be set wherever they wanted. (Of course: they were also told that FF could not be made in landscape, so...take that for what it's worth). This is a real conversion house, doing lots o'biz, so it's not some fly-by-night nobody that was told this gibberish. I've asked for clarification (from the Veep of Digital Services, directly, on the damn phone, BTW), and I still don't have a coherent answer as to what's real.

Because the PW occurs after the upload, after the alleged 'conversion,' after you are able to download the preview book (which worked perfectly, for the book in question), you can't see what has occurred to your book unless/until you actually buy it. Now, this might be all well and good for the average DIY'er, but I have zero desire to buy 800 books a year that I already HAVE sitting here because Amazon thinks that the authors who are uploading Word files are so damn stupid that they can't be trusted to set their own SRL bookmark! I mean...

I've instructed my crews to set all SRL's, no exception, after the TOC. What irritates the holy hell out of me is that this means that if we have something that must have the SRL set to it, that's frontmatter, we have to put it AFTER the Table of Contents, which makes the thing look like Amateur Hour. And worse, the constant "yes you can," "no you can't," and when I put together a carefully constructed timeline of all the inconsistent and outright contradictory answers I'd received from the Mgr. of Digital Services, I still don't have an answer.

Frustrating isn't the word. No wonder Josh sold to Firebrand. Between Amazon, which up until lately I've really loved, B&N (worst customer service in the WORLD), Apple (no standard is too good that we can't break just to be "cooler") and Kobo ("We're not using Calibre," "oh, wait, yes we are")...it's a freaking miracle I'm not bald.

Thanks Hitch - that one had me rolling in the aisles! Goodness I feel your frustration.

It's hard enough being a DIY publisher with only two Kindle books right now, though both top-sellers, one of them made #1 in the entire Top 100 free, not that it made any money, but that's a LOT of folks not getting the experience I *thought* I had so cleverly designed - though not as clever as your treasure hunt clue. Nice.

I really appreciate you sharing that info about their workflow. What the bleeding point of having a "preview file" then? Grrrr. I can tell you, even though I *can* buy our own books to check, you then have to go through the tortuous process of requesting the forced update (which always seems to take TWO emails from KDP to do it. Like Microsoft, they insist on asking "Are you SURE?"). So it is by no means instant - and if it still doesn't fly the way you want it ... then there goes another 24-48 hours minimum going through the same process.

Funnily enough, I had this reply a few hours back from KDP:

Quote:

Hello Robert,

I'm sorry for the inconvenience caused by this issue.

Our technical team has informed that the Start Reading Location or SRL has now been set for both of your titles.
They have also verified that your titles open at the relevant SRL in the Mobi7 version of your content.

Please note that Kindle, iPad and iPhone modes in the Kindle Previewer correspond to the mobi7 version of your converted content, while the Kindle Fire and Paperwhite modes correspond with the mobi8 version. Hence, these versions will be displayed differently on the actual Kindle device.

With this in mind, we have found that the Mobi8 version of your titles are not currently set to display the SRL as set in the Mobi7 version.
I have notified the technical department, and they have informed that they are working hard to fix it as soon as possible.

We appreciate you taking time to let us know about this error, and apologize for any inconvenience caused.

Thanks you for using Amazon KDP.

It certainly has me re-thinking structure - and I'm of the same view as you, that putting the TOC first looks like amateur hour. I do agree there is no need to "force" the reader through Author Acknowledgments, Copyright etc, so we've taken to putting those at the end now anyway. But in non-fiction at least, I think there are plenty of times where it is justified to have content before the TOC - but in my opinion, this should always be the publisher's choice and subject to the ultimate arbiter, the reader, who will quickly say if they hate it.

One thing I've thought of is to have a"mini-TOC" at the start, correctly tagged as the proper TOC, then another full-TOC where I want it.

Thanks Hitch - that one had me rolling in the aisles! Goodness I feel your frustration.

Well, if it provided you with amusement, it was almost worth the angst. ;-)

Quote:

It's hard enough being a DIY publisher with only two Kindle books right now, though both top-sellers, one of them made #1 in the entire Top 100 free, not that it made any money, but that's a LOT of folks not getting the experience I *thought* I had so cleverly designed - though not as clever as your treasure hunt clue. Nice.

Not my cleverness, honestly--all the publisher. I'm just de printer, mon.

Quote:

I really appreciate you sharing that info about their workflow. What the bleeding point of having a "preview file" then? Grrrr. I can tell you, even though I *can* buy our own books to check, you then have to go through the tortuous process of requesting the forced update (which always seems to take TWO emails from KDP to do it. Like Microsoft, they insist on asking "Are you SURE?"). So it is by no means instant - and if it still doesn't fly the way you want it ... then there goes another 24-48 hours minimum going through the same process.

Well, YES, it's bloody STUPID! And worse, what about a book that has to be made and remade? We have tons of those, albeit, that's 99% in our process, not once it's been released into the wild, but I just had one today, where a guy missed something, utterly, and only noticed it when he uploaded. So, fix ePUB, remake Mobi, yadda. Can you imagine what I--the producer, mind you, not the publisher--would have to go through to get an updated version of the "new" upload on sale? I mean, as the publisher, you have to ask twice; I'd either have to keep buying it or wait some ungodly period of time to get a "true" version.

And, no matter what, 800 books +/- times anywhere from $2.99 to $5.99...that adds up; ranging from $2400 to $4800 annual or thereabouts. Sure, we'd pass it on to our customers, but when you look at it at first glance, it seems like a petty charge, doesn't it? (Until you do the math, figure out all the brain-damage involved in getting the "new" "real" file, post-PW, etc.), and worse, wouldn't it say to you, were you the poor non-tecchie client, that this booberoo firm doesn't know what it's doing? ("Well, gosh, Amazon screws around with the files, so we HAVE TO buy the book to be SURE it looks like what you approved?" OMFG! I can't even imagine how I'd spin that to sound remotely non-incompetent!).

Quote:

It certainly has me re-thinking structure - and I'm of the same view as you, that putting the TOC first looks like amateur hour. I do agree there is no need to "force" the reader through Author Acknowledgments, Copyright etc, so we've taken to putting those at the end now anyway. But in non-fiction at least, I think there are plenty of times where it is justified to have content before the TOC - but in my opinion, this should always be the publisher's choice and subject to the ultimate arbiter, the reader, who will quickly say if they hate it.

Ditto. It should always, always, always be the publisher's choice. No matter how daft, dumb or crazy. Customer is always right, and all that.

Quote:

One thing I've thought of is to have a"mini-TOC" at the start, correctly tagged as the proper TOC, then another full-TOC where I want it.

Then the SRL can come after the first TOC.

Would that work do you think?

Or look even more amateur!

Tnx for the added info, and ... I enjoyed the rant!

No: I like this idea. Maybe it's the future. A mini-TOC, right after the full title page (so: Cover, TitlePage, mini-TOC), then the rest of the frontmatter and the half-title, then the first chapter. Put the "full" TOC at the back, simply linked from the main TOC. The problem is, the reader using the "go to" menu mid-book. I guess we could set the go to in the ncx for the "full" TOC, and leave the mini TOC (something like "Cover, Start Reading") in the front? That might be viable. James Patterson actually does it this way, and we have made a few books like this for clients of ours who are determined that if JP does it that way, well, bygod, so will they.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Thanks for the details, Hitch. Goodness, that's stupid.

What on earth are they doing, touching the files after the preview stage in KDP?
What on earth are they doing, fiddling with start of text when it's been deliberately set to something?

I sympathise with your frustration at the lack of clarity.

Thanks, pdurrant.

I can't say how crazy-making it's made me (my staff could probably tell you tales at length, though...). I mean: bearing in mind that for all intents and purposes, I owe my entire business to Amazon, because it was when they listed us as a Professional Conversion House that we just...took off like crazy. Moreover, like it or not, they patently drive the self-publishing tsunami that washes up on all our shores. Imagine what it takes to get me to the point where I pick up the phone, and rant at The, not "a," but THE, Veep of Digital Products and Operations.

To be fair, this was also in conjunction (time-wise, not issue-wise) with a KQN (Kindle Quality Notice) issued for one of our superstar authors, for--wait for it--TWO typos (one real one, one a Brit spelling/usage difference) in a book with 256,000 (yes: TWO HUNDRED FIFTY-SIX THOUSAND) words. I nearly blew a gasket. I forget the real math now, but I worked out that it was a one-tenth of one-one-millionth of 1 percent error rate, or something like that, and read them the riot act about that, too. Given the absolutely unreadable drivel that is posted there daily by untrained writers, uploaded in Word, not proofread, not edited, and barely something that would get a passing grade in a Freshman High School (in the US, this is age 14, basically) Creative Writing class, to send a KQN to one of our clients--someone who's made hundreds of millions of bucks publishing books, over TWO TYPOS? I just flipped out. And this was from a SCAN. 2 errors, out of a quarter-million words? Crap, man, I'll take those numbers ANY day.

So, sorry, I've really been the UberRanter today. I'll shaddup now, but...long and short of it, don't plan on your SRL working. ASSUME it will go wonky if it's not Chapter 1, or at least, a page of text AFTER the TOC. If you make a book that's different than this, ensure you buy it, dl it, and check it.