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Why disregard using protection even if you are HIV positive? Don't you guys worry about other STD's and Hepatitis? Hepatitis C can kill you quicker than HIV if you are co-infected. Having HIV is enough for me, I am not gonna run around more docs appointments than I need just because I believe Superinfection is not real. If you wanna risk it then be my guest, let us know how it went.

The five of you have continued to hijack and in some cases, flame, in this thread despite Andy's warning.

Do you guys seriously think everyone wants to wade through your hissy fits and one-upmanships? Superinfection and/or re-infection is a serious subject. Have some regard for the other users of this website or you'll end up with a time out.

NO FURTHER WARNINGS WILL BE ISSUED TO ANYONE IN THIS THREAD. If the senseless hijacks and flames continue, the person responsible will be given a time out. Enough is enough already.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

This is a pretty interesting subject something that needs a lot more scientific investigation as well by the sounds of it. So am I right in thinking there are basically thought to be two scenarios super infection which is extremely rare and involves developing an aggressive highly drug resistant strain. And reinfection which theoretically has the potential to be a drug resistant strain? Or have a put that far too simply? I'd like to think I will always have protected sex no matter who with purely because of the very unpleasant experience of having syphilis and THOSE injections. Saying this though as of yet i've not been in a situation where I would have to choose so I can't say that's what I would definately do.

They were warned and you'd know that if you'd bothered yourself to read Andy's warning. They stopped the crap. You kept it going. Keep it up, keep hijacking this thread, and you'll be timed out. If you want to moan about this further, use the report button instead of continuing the hijack.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Like oh My GOd.... Just all of you get over this topic. In the end we all decide for ourselves and no one has the right to judge. Safe or unsafe this has become like to 1993 backwoods hickvill kindergšrten.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

One person on here emailed their feelings. I thought I'd share that person's thoughts and see what you think?

"Oh hey about SUPERINFECTION - reinfection is real, superinfection is possibly sensationalism from the media - just another name. But there's little research on it I think because the reinfected progress to AIDS quickly and then the morgue. But that's just my thinking - i'm talking out of my a&% again. Most of us tempted fate once. It's probably best not to tempt fate anymore."

LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safelyin a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT ARIDE!!!

i believe you can be infected with another strain of HIV, yes, there are what hiv-1, hiv-2? is that right?

but i like to think about it like this, from the time i was infected to the time i was diagnosed i did have a lot of sex, it was summer time after all..., so theoretically i could have been exposed to other strains even before diagnosis.

and any time you have sex after diagnosis there is of course a risk of being reinfected/superinfected, so theres not really anything you can do about it unless your in a stable relationship, everyone else who is more liberal/casual will always run the risk, and the risk can come from unprotected oral sex too and a gay man never (from my own experience) uses condoms for oral so for us its either take a vow of celibacy or just run the risk.

i wouldnt want more strains/reinfection/superinfection, but its so easy to get, theoretically, that you cant worry about it, taking a vow of celibacy would drive me more round the bend, but only from my own experience as if i could have mr right i would have had him before i was hiv and always feel like i wont ever find anyone now so casual is my only option, and yes lol am only 24 and thinking like this lol.

"Oh hey about SUPERINFECTION - reinfection is real, superinfection is possibly sensationalism from the media - just another name. But there's little research on it I think because the reinfected progress to AIDS quickly and then the morgue. But that's just my thinking - i'm talking out of my a&% again. Most of us tempted fate once. It's probably best not to tempt fate anymore."

I would like to see the evidence that reinfection automatically leads to fast progression to AIDS and death.

This is a subject which comes up regularly in the HIV world. About two years ago there was some headlining stuff about a case in New York. It still remains an unresolved issue.

What is especially troubling about it is that the idea of superinfection, though it remains essentially insufficiently documented, is used to re-ignite fears (and judgements) about promiscuity and about gay sex in particular. As we know, anti-gay judgements are all to easily ignited. As with so much of the history of the epidemic, this isn't just about science. It's also about prejudice and politics.

In the mix as well of this situation are the better documented concerns on the part of the NYC Dept. of Health about the role that crystal meth use in particular plays in unprotected intercourse. So a number of factors come together around this question. Thus far there remains insufficient proof regarding superinfection. What we do know is that the use of crystal meth unquestionably encourages unsafe sex and that unsafe sex can lead to new infections as well as vulnerability to other (and serious) STDs.

Solid proof of superinfection remains an open question. More serious study is needed to determine what is really true about it and its effect on disease progression.

I come down on the side that there are overly sensationalist news reports and from burglars within our own community which have an agenda of their own.

Reinfections, superinfections... it's all pish posh to me...and that's not a new spice girl.

Don't buy it. Don't beLIEve it and will go on barebacking with other pozzies as the Adventureô continues. Of course, my adventure is pretty much going home to snuggle with my puppy nowadays.

I'm not about to live my life through fear. It's a sad way to live.

edit: austin... there has been some exploration into the idea of using a pre-exposure pill much like PEP is used after an exposure... but pep is done for 30 days and people, notably club/drug users, have been known to take these to enjoy a carefree night on the town.

Using a condom is much cheaper and probably more effective than taking HIV meds to prevent HIV. I don't see anyone realistically paying HIV drug prices, (and I certainly don't see any insurance companies/government footing the bill), to prevent HIV. Plus why deal with the side effects (and toxicity) of taking HIV meds, if you aren't HIV positive?

Well, I know when the first story broke my partner who was negative considered it although it wasn't approved yet. Indeed, it wasn't going to be covered by insurance and the cost was $600/mo. Had it been an option I think he would have gone for it.

Anyways, aside from that my point is that if Viread prevents infection wouldn't those other drugs in the same class likely do the same thing making reinfection a non issue?

It's pretty easy. I drink alot. Though I'm not sure what context your are responding in.

The fear of realistically getting reinfection or superinfection does not exist in my world so I am not afraid of it. It's not rocket science. Not sure if you were responding to that or something my general like.. all we have to fear is fear itself kinda hoohaa or being afraid of the 'future'.

I'll tell you the ending... we all die. Sorry if that spoiled the story for you. I'll always advocate quality over quantity. Besides, I'm too vain to get all wrinkly.

Anyways, aside from that my point is that if Viread prevents infection wouldn't those other drugs in the same class likely do the same thing making reinfection a non issue?

All HIV meds, not just those in the same class as Viread, could prevent reinfection/superinfection....and by that, I mean, if it reduced your viral load (preferably to undetectable) then there isn't much virus to transmit to someone else (your viral load plays a big part in determine how infecteous you are). I don't think you can conclude it would make reinfection a "non issue", cause folks are not always undetectable. But yes, being on HIV meds does help to lower the risk of reinfection/superinfection.

$600 a month, plus the added benefit of side effects, just to prevent HIV seems irrational to me. Buy a beamer and a monthly box of condoms instead.

After reading all the posts that are about the subject, I have a hard time,wrapping my head around it. From what I am seeing here, I don't feel it is worth the risk to go unprotected. It seems like there are too many unknown variables. Yes, love is grand and it would be great to find another to be in a +/+ relationship but if you loved someone wouldn't you want them to be around as long as possible? Wouldn't that make you want to be protected? I may be wrong in saying this but it seems like most is going on how nice it would be to just fuck w/o a condom and the hell with the risks because you are in love. I'm not trying to be a smart ass but just saying.

All HIV meds, not just those in the same class as Viread, could prevent reinfection/superinfection....and by that, I mean, if it reduced your viral load (preferably to undetectable) then there isn't much virus to transmit to someone else (your viral load plays a big part in determine how infecteous you are). I don't think you can conclude it would make reinfection a "non issue", cause folks are not always undetectable. But yes, being on HIV meds does help to lower the risk of reinfection/superinfection.

$600 a month, plus the added benefit of side effects, just to prevent HIV seems irrational to me. Buy a beamer and a monthly box of condoms instead.

Cliff,LOL, I never said he was rational ; ) It wasn't my idea and I'd never try to convince a neg. partner to take HIV meds instead of using safe sex. Thank you for your opinions.

Queen,In a perfect world everyone would have safe sex, but since we know that doesn't happen I think the issue is a valid one. And yes, it's nice to be able to read actual related information finally Thanks Ann! ; )

Andy,I tend to agree with you that some of these sensationalized stories are slanted and used to demonize gay men. Notice we've never heard of a straight person having a superinfection of HIV. Something to think about!

Yes, love is grand and it would be great to find another to be in a +/+ relationship but if you loved someone wouldn't you want them to be around as long as possible? Wouldn't that make you want to be protected?

For two positive people on treatment with consistently undetectable viral load the risk is so small (like a fraction of a % to zero) I think it's neither here nor there. If UK guidelines on conception can recommend that, under certain circumstances eg undetectable viral load, no coinfections, a positive-negative couple can use a natural method for conception because the risk of transmission is much less than a fraction of a %, this must also appliy to reinfection. If it was common you;d expect it to happen at least as often as 1st time infections, or fairly often and, well, at most a few dozen (reported) possible cases that have affected treatment badly in 1.3 million+ HIV cases in the developed world....

People must make up their own minds. Different people, different conclusions I guess.

Matt mentioned no one he knows in a pos/pos relationship is using condoms. Frankly, I don't know any either.

Heck, Wesley... I've been hard pressed to find poz guys who use condoms at all with other poz guys. There are a few I know who 'talk' about it, but rarely practice it, at least from what I can surmise.

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Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

For two positive people on treatment with consistently undetectable viral load the risk is so small (like a fraction of a % to zero) I think it's neither here nor there. If UK guidelines on conception can recommend that, under certain circumstances eg undetectable viral load, no coinfections, a positive-negative couple can use a natural method for conception because the risk of transmission is much less than a fraction of a %, this must also appliy to reinfection. If it was common you;d expect it to happen at least as often as 1st time infections, or fairly often and, well, at most a few dozen (reported) possible cases that have affected treatment badly in 1.3 million+ HIV cases in the developed world....

People must make up their own minds. Different people, different conclusions I guess.

- matt

Thanks for the input, Newt. I hope you can tolerate my questions. Ok, now if both people were consistently undetectable, I can see the low risk. Here comes the what if, what if that was to change in one of the partners, maybe not a drastic change but a change nonetheless, wouldn't it then put them at risk?

Austin~~

Yeah, I know it's not a Walgreen's commercial of a perfect world. Maybe it's just my thinking but I just feel that when you are already poz you got enough going against you. Why would you make it worse but possibly infecting yourself again. No matter how small the risk. Isn't that like playing roulette? But then as Newt says "people must make up their own minds".

Heck, Wesley... I've been hard pressed to find poz guys who use condoms at all with other poz guys. There are a few I know who 'talk' about it, but rarely practice it, at least from what I can surmise.

Yeah that's pretty much what I've found and I have to admit that since diagnosis I have mainly had unprotected sex with other poz guys. I didn't gain any resistance during that time, I don't know if that's luck or statistics but I do know I felt very relieved when I knew I could start on meds with the full range open to me.

I don't know, I took the decision to have unprotected sex with poz guys but I am, frankly, extremely scared at the prospect of getting Hep C, I think it would destroy me if I contracted it, knowing the damage it can do in conjunction with HIV. That, and the thought that one day I might be unlucky and get another strain is seriously making me consider how I approach my sex life from this point onwards.

Thanks for the input, Newt. I hope you can tolerate my questions. Ok, now if both people were consistently undetectable, I can see the low risk. Here comes the what if, what if that was to change in one of the partners, maybe not a drastic change but a change nonetheless, wouldn't it then put them at risk?

Austin~~

Yeah, I know it's not a Walgreen's commercial of a perfect world. Maybe it's just my thinking but I just feel that when you are already poz you got enough going against you. Why would you make it worse but possibly infecting yourself again. No matter how small the risk. Isn't that like playing roulette? But then as Newt says "people must make up their own minds".

Hey Queen,

I don't want to give out the impression that I'm somehow endorsing unprotected casual sex. I had my one partner tested for everything under the sun cause the last thing I wanted was a secondary issue. Of course, that was right after my diag. so I was ubber paranoid. I guess after learning more today on the benefit of meds preventing reinfection or transmission that is one more reason to consider them sooner for me. It would definitely help me with anxiety should I end up in another mixed relationship or any for that matter.

I don't know, I took the decision to have unprotected sex with poz guys but I am, frankly, extremely scared at the prospect of getting Hep C, I think it would destroy me if I contracted it, knowing the damage it can do in conjunction with HIV. That, and the thought that one day I might be unlucky and get another strain is seriously making me consider how I approach my sex life from this point onwards.

I don't blame you for being worried about hep. or syphilis. or all the other nasties that hang around in our nether regions.

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Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

I don't know, I took the decision to have unprotected sex with poz guys but I am, frankly, extremely scared at the prospect of getting Hep C, I think it would destroy me if I contracted it, knowing the damage it can do in conjunction with HIV.

Plus, Hep C= No more drinking. Ever.

I am completely not kidding when I say that's enough to make me vigilant.

These are the only things that I'll weigh in on at the moment... I don't get online much now, I can't afford a time out.

RE: Wesley's initial post

Quote

...news stories about some HIV pill that could be prescribed to a negative partner (I forget the name)?

While there are a number of therapies that are currently being looked at, last year the drugs most often cited were Truvada or Tenofovir. Both are being looked at extensively as a course of PReP (PRe Exposure Propylaxisis). This as opposed to PEP (Post Exposure Prophylaxsis). Information about initial studies, which were on a very limited scale are shown in the attached image. Additional studies sponsored by the CDC and NIH involving Heterosexual men and women, MSMs as well as IV drug users are expected to be completed between 2008 and 2010. These trials, currently underway or soon to begin will include Thailand, the U.S., Botswana, and Ecuador/Peru. For additional information... GOOGLE IT!

RE: Reply # 1

Quote

I am no Dr. but I remember that about 2 years ago progressed from a fresh infection to Aids and death within 6 months. All drug combos failed on him and this was all proven.

The patient did develop what is called 3-DCR HIV or 3 Drug Combination Resistant HIV. According to confirmed data the patient was infected with multiple versions of already drug resistant HIV. Most likely this happened while engaging in unprotected anal receptive sex with multiple partners while high on methamphetamine. It is also confirmed that he indeed quickly progressed to having AIDS however, there was a newer class of drug that he was not resistant to and was responding well to. I can find no confirmation anywhere that he died.

Anyone have an aspirin? I've got a headache now from havin to read so many replies to a thread started within the last two days

Marc, I've heard of using certain meds in that regard as a solution for negative partners of poz people to use as PreP. But I always thought it seemed way too bulky in nature. I mean, poz people have a hard enough time dealing with the side-effects, and some of the side effects of these drugs can be pretty nasty...

The only reason we put up with them is because it keeps our viral loads at bay and we need them... I just don't see that being practical on a mass scale for HIV- people... I wish it was... but I don't see how it could be worked out...

Seriously though IMHO, this is food for thought. I think most people would have a much better understanding of this aspect of our lives and what it is like to be HIV+ if they chose to take these meds at least for a one month period.

And of course I still fantasize about a utopian ideal where health care is afforded to everyone regardless of income or geographic location

I'm not saying I don't agree with you, but maybe availing these meds on a grander scale would drive the costs down more too.

Seriously though IMHO, this is food for thought. I think most people would have a much better understanding of this aspect of our lives and what it is like to be HIV+ if they chose to take these meds at least for a one month period.

And of course I still fantasize about a utopian ideal where health care is afforded to everyone regardless of income or geographic location

I'm not saying I don't agree with you, but maybe availing these meds on a grander scale would drive the costs down more too.

You're definitely right... it is food for thought. And it's a very interesting proposition... but I do wonder about the willingness of HIV- people to know what it's like to be poz... of course, if people are in a relationship, it could be different. But until the toxicity of the meds is knocked down substantially further... I don't know if any doctor would dream of putting a neggie on them. And God... what insurance company would cover a neggie for those meds?

And speaking of...

I too fantasize about that day that comes when the US institutes universal health care... oh God, do I fantasize about that day!

And we should have more fun because... we're um... I'm gonna go with awesome. Yes. Awesome.

Forget Keisha, where is SD Girl, Aidsmeds own reigning queen of mean. I suspect she might be flying on her broom somewhere over San Diego as we speak, or should I say, type.

She is always good at chewing someone a new one whenever that person stands up against the group think so prevalent on this website.

Some of you sound like a bunch of trash talking seventh grade girls, trying to sound so hard core, when in fact you are merely insecure children hiding from your own boogeymen.

I love when the crew of Aupoint and Silly Philly strap on board. You girls don't have a lot going on in your personal life do you, that is, to have so much time to troll this website. Many of us are growing bored with your rantings.

As far as 2 hiv positives people having sex on a ha art therapy, ( I know I'm gonna get lynched for this but here it goes) as long as both viral loads are undetectable and both parties are on a ha art therapy I see little danger of a double infection or a supervirus evolving as the chances of infection with no or little viral load is nearly impossible.

No lynching from me, Ryeguy.

Interesting hypothesis, but I for one wouldn't be willing to gamble to find out. To me it wouldn't be worth the risk.

I was advised early after diagnosis to take precautions against getting doubly- or re-infected, and that still makes the most sense to me.

Daniel

I still think this is the biggest issue that most don't talk about. Having gone through all of the various opinions back and forth I was wondering if we had any couples out there who had an opinion on this?

Her finely-touched spirit had still its fine issues, though they were not widely visible. Her full nature, like that river of which Cyrus broke the strength, spent itself in channels which had no great name on the earth. But the effect of her being on those around her was incalculably diffusive: for the growing good of the world is partly dependent on unhistoric acts; and that things are not so ill with you and me as they might have been, is half owing to the number who lived faithfully a hidden life, and rest in unvisited tombs.

I understand that, I'm not trying to be a dick or anything. I'm just generally curious whether or not the situation I stated could actually MEDICALLY happen... more for my own information in the future. I'm kind of on the fence with this issue. You used to hear about "re-infection" stuff all the time from doctors, and I don't think I've heard the term in the past few years. Just wondering.

What you do in your personal life sexually while somewhat titillating and stuff doesn't really interesting me... we're all adults who are consenting. Maybe my question in your case would be, if you had a virus that was totally mutated to all PI's and NNRTI's would you advise your partner who is positive, yet on no medication, to use a condom?

I am not expert enough to give such advice. He's generally as informed about this subject as anyone and makes his own choices.

I was on a cross infection study in Seattle for about eight years. Like I said, I still have the same strain I started out with, and no others. These results are not atypical, although I can't say they are conclusive. I don't actually know. *** if you google this issue and look at the studies, you will find the results to be inconclusive. ***

I am not trying to persuade this conversation one way or another. I firmly believe that individuals need to make their own choices on this subject. It is not my position to criticize anyone's choices regarding whether they use a condom with a poz partner or not.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2007, 10:25:01 PM by dtwpuck »

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Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Let's be clear about a few things. The term "Superinfection" was not invented by the media. It is a virological term that has been incorrectly picked up by the media and has been banded around interchangeably with "Super virus". Superinfection, as newt said, means "on top of". Superinfection is where you repeatedly infect the same cell with more virus - be it the same strain or a different one. It's been around for longer than HIV. Sadly, with our ever hysterical media, this has been blown out of all proportion.

I have read papers in the journal of Virology that state cases of superinfection. However, they were from sex workers that have had frequent exposures. They know that the person has been infected with two different viruses as they came from different clades.

So what is the danger of superinfection? A single cell infected by two different HIV strains will allow viral recombination within that cell to produce something that wasn't around before. Superinfection has been blamed for hybrid HIV viruses - although I haven't read the data to support that. I guess the danger would be that if you were resistant to NNRTIs and were infected with a PI resistant virus they would recombine to make a virus resistant to both and deliver unwanted multidrug resistance. Indeed, you could argue that if you had mutations that gave low resistance to a drug and were superinfected with a virus containing mutations that augmented this mutation you could get drug resistance where it wasn't seen before.

However, what really is the risk? It's hard to quantify as the numbers of actual superinfections remains low - and often come from drug users or people who frequently have unprotected sex and are at multiple risks. What chance therefore of being superinfected and the two viruses conspiring to create a virus that is now resistant to something you were taking. Probably very low. However, there are documented cases of HIV superinfection and the relevance of this and frequency has to be determined. Only then can we quantify the risk to people getting multidrug resistance.

To answer Cliff's question, if you get superinfected with another virus does that mean you will die in 6 months. Probably not. Let's be clear about something. HIV mutates every day in millions of people. If it could come up with a combination that killed all people rapidly I believe it would have done so by now. Viruses produced from superinfection might be bad for a particular person based on their immune response to that HIV but it doesn't translate that this virus is a rapid killer.

I hope that clears up a few myths..

Rich

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NB. Any advice about HIV is given in addition to your own medical advice and not intended to replace it. You should never make clinical decisions based on what anyone says on the internet but rather check with your ID doctor first. Discussions from the internet are just that - Discussions. They may give you food for thought, but they should not direct you to do anything but fuel discussion.