Christian Democrats wrote:Gender identity disorder, or gender dysphoria, is detrimental to children by definition. It is a source of significant distress, and two-fifths of patients attempt suicide. The idea that parents and psychiatrists should just allow "childhood experimentation" and make no attempts to help children adjust is preposterous. There is no evidence that psychotherapy for gender identity disorder in children (GIDC) is harmful. The burden of proof is on the nations that want to prohibit such treatments.

You are confusing your variables. It is true that transgender children and people in general disproportionately commit suicide, but the source of stress is often the so-called cure you're proposing. Strong pressure from one's family and community to conform to their sex at birth rather than the gender they identify with is what drives people to suicide. There is no credible, scientifically rigorous and well-replicated evidence that suggests there is a causal relationship between being transgender and suicide when one controls for socialy constructed stigma against transgender individuals.

You're politicking. There's no evidence that letting children "experiment" is good for their mental health. The fact that more than 75% of GIDC patients reidentify with their physical sex is sufficient for the provision of psychotherapy to such patients.

Next, there is no statistically sound way to control for "socialy [sic] constructed stigma against transgender individuals." In fact, suicide attempts among GIDC patients are quite high in all nations, however "affirming" they are.

Again, the burden of proof is on the nations that want to ban a medical practice, not the nations that believe it should be legal.

Leo Tolstoy wrote:Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.

Christian Democrats wrote:There's no evidence that letting children "experiment" is good for their mental health.

Sure there is; literally just fucking talk to any Trans or GNC people on the fucking planet. If you're in the market for anecdotal evidence, I myself am damn sure I wouldn't have spent much of my life considering suicide if I'd been able to comfortably experiment with my presentation back when, instead of having it hammered into me that being the way that I am is somehow inherently bad.

Christian Democrats wrote:The fact that more than 75% of GIDC patients reidentify with their physical sex is sufficient for the provision of psychotherapy to such patients.

That statistic is nonsense based on bad/obsolete science, intentional manipulation and misrepresentation of research, and peddled by people who actively work to restrict the rights of Trans and GNC people. Please do some basic research.

Christian Democrats wrote:In fact, suicide attempts among GIDC patients are quite high in all nations, however "affirming" they are.

Yeah, because of people like you and Auralia.

Christian Democrats wrote:Again, the burden of proof is on the nations that want to ban a medical practice, not the nations that believe it should be legal.

Conversion Therapy is not a medical practice. [1] Conversion Therapy is not scientific. [1][2][3] Conversion Therapy is deeply traumatizing. [1][2][3] Conversion Therapy fucking kills people. [1][2]There's your fucking proof. That's the burden you're bearing defending this shit. Get over yourself. All of this information is easily available. All of it can be told to you a thousand times by anyone who's gone through it, or knows/knew anyone who went through it. You want to talk about politicking, look in the goddamn mirror.

Last edited by Tinfect on Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Christian Democrats wrote:You're politicking. There's no evidence that letting children "experiment" is good for their mental health. The fact that more than 75% of GIDC patients reidentify with their physical sex is sufficient for the provision of psychotherapy to such patients.

I am not politicking. The scientific consensus is on my side. In fact, you are cherry picking your statistics. The study cited by Auralia suggested less than 50% of transgender children identify with their sex at birth after puberty, and he agrees with your general point! But as I mentioned, simply reidentifying with one's sex at birth after puberty is not sufficient ground to prevent them from identifying with another gender in the first place.

Next, there is no statistically sound way to control for "socialy [sic] constructed stigma against transgender individuals." In fact, suicide attempts among GIDC patients are quite high in all nations, however "affirming" they are.

You're right, just as there is no statistically sound way to demonstrate that conversion therapy can never work, but that hasn't stopped Auralia from asking for that information. Either way, my point is that you cannot prove that transgender individuals are more predisposed to suicide inherently. What we can prove is that there is a significant causal relationship between stress from social stigmatization and suicide.

Again, the burden of proof is on the nations that want to ban a medical practice, not the nations that believe it should be legal.

You are the one making the claim. You are claiming that psychotherapy is effective and normatively desirable.

Again, there is no evidence that psychotherapy for GIDC patients is harmful.

This is either offensively ignorant or deliberately reality-defying.

Last edited by Sciongrad on Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Natalia Santos, Plenipotentiary and Permanent Scionite Representative to the World Assembly

Christian Democrats wrote:The only link that you gave that is mildly relevant is a magazine article written by an MMA fighter. That's hardly "fucking proof."

OOC:You see, it's funny you say that, because, the way you say that, it's obvious you're not trying to convince me with that, you're trying to convince some theoretical third party who's reading the argument here, but isn't going to read the links I've posted. In any case, I don't quite know which article you're referring to, given that I've posted various personal experiences and journalistic takes on the subject all which confirm that Conversion Therapy is incredibly harmful, alongside a variety of articles demonstrating that the process has been wholly rejected by credible institutions, but do feel free to explain how their job discredits their experiences/investigation into the subject.

Gee, I wonder why. Maybe, just maybe, when people tacitly provide support for a process that takes people like me, psychologically and physically abuses them, often to the point of suicide, simply for daring to exist, something that is inflicted on children, I get a bit, you know, mad. Do please stop pretending that having any kind of emotional reaction suddenly invalidates everything I say; Moderation's already gotten on my ass once today.

You heard it here first, folks, CD doesn't think that rejection by credible institutions and numerous personal and investigative accounts of a process that reveal it to be dangerous, unscientific, and traumatizing, at its best, constitutes a basis for a rational argument against something.

Christian Democrats wrote:Again, there is no evidence that psychotherapy for GIDC patients is harmful.

Sciongrad's got the point on this one rather nicely, so I'll hit it from a different angle. Your characterizing it as mere psychotherapy legitimizes the practice as some kind of treatment for people you are characterizing as mentally ill by referring to them as Patients. This very clearly, unlike your language otherwise, demonstrates your position on the subject, and rather confirms what I've suspected for some time now, despite y'alls vehement denial of it. I sincerely hope you never have kids.

Last edited by Tinfect on Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Again, there is no evidence that psychotherapy for GIDC patients is harmful.

This is either offensively ignorant or deliberately reality-defying.

Not really. Psychotherapy is the standard treatment for GIDC. See, for example, what the NHS says:

Treatment for children and young people

If your child is under 18 and thought to have gender dysphoria, they'll usually be referred to a specialist child and adolescent Gender Identity Clinic (GIC).

[ . . . ]

Staff at these clinics can carry out a detailed assessment of your child, to help them determine what support they need.

Depending on the results of this assessment, the options for children and young people with suspected gender dysphoria can include:

* family therapy* individual child psychotherapy* parental support or counselling* group work for young people and their parents* regular reviews to monitor gender identity development* hormone therapy

Your child’s treatment should be arranged with a multi-disciplinary team (MDT). This is a group of different healthcare professionals working together, which may include specialists such as mental health professionals and paediatric endocrinologists (specialists in hormone conditions in children).

Most treatments offered at this stage are psychological, rather than medical or surgical. This is because the majority of children with suspected gender dysphoria don't have the condition once they reach puberty. Psychological support offers young people and their families a chance to discuss their thoughts and receive support to help them cope with the emotional distress of the condition, without rushing into more drastic treatments.

Tinfect wrote:In any case, I don't quite know which article you're referring to, given that I've posted various personal experiences and journalistic takes on the subject all which confirm that Conversion Therapy is incredibly harmful

Anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything. You found a few stories, all but one of which has nothing to do with GIDC. The one story that did deal with GIDC said that a psychiatrist prescribed anti-depressants to a GIDC patient. The horror!

Tinfect wrote:alongside a variety of articles demonstrating that the process has been wholly rejected by credible institutions

The only institutions you consider credible are the ones that agree with you.

Debating the effectiveness of conversion therapy in the real world is pointless given that NS is not the real world. WA nations may not have human psychology and may have access to treatments that can do far more then change gender preferences. We can assume that some nations are able to make men attracted to women, or women attracted to women, or men attracted only to women who used to be men, or some third gender. No need to limit to just two. I'm more interested in the question of whether people should be allowed to pursue this treatment.

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Aclion wrote:Debating the effectiveness of conversion therapy in the real world is pointless given that NS is not the real world. WA nations may not have human psychology and may have access to treatments that can do far more then change gender preferences. We can assume that some nations are able to make men attracted to women, or women attracted to women, or men attracted only to women who used to be men, or some third gender. No need to limit to just two. I'm more interested in the question of whether people should be allowed to pursue this treatment.

(OOC: If a nation is sufficiently advanced as to have perfect conversion therapy with a close to 100% success rate, they probably will have removed homosexuality already by bio-engineering, which could work before a baby is even born.)

A representative democracy with a parliament of 535 seatsKenmoria is Laissez-Faire on economy but centre-left on social issuesLocated in Europe and border France to the right and Spain belowNS stats and policies are not canon, use the factbooks

Not in the WA despite coincidentally following nearly all resolutionsThis is due to a problem with how the WA contradicts democracyHowever we do have a WA mission and often participate in draftingCurrent ambassador: James Lewitt

OOC: If anything, this controversy shows that it would be best to limit the ban on conversion therapies to those targeting sexuality, unless there's clear support from a number of regions with large WA representation and participation otherwise. While I agree with many of Tinfect and Sciongrad arguments, it's clear from this debate that not everyone feels the same way about therapies addressing gender dysphoria. To make sure this bill reaches quorum and manages to pass with very little threat of repeal, I would suggest not dealing with the topic of therapies targeting those with gender dysphoria and other afflictions, and leaving them for another proposal.

OOC:I'm done engaging in this shit. UM, my advice to you, if it's worth anything given our differences in the past, is to ignore Auralia and CD entirely for this resolution.

Aclion wrote:Debating the effectiveness of conversion therapy in the real world is pointless given that NS is not the real world. WA nations may not have human psychology and may have access to treatments that can do far more then change gender preferences. We can assume that some nations are able [...]

No. For the love of god don't drag Techwank into this clusterfuck of a debate. For the record, the Imperium is one of the most advanced Nations that actively participates in the World Assembly, and it is more or less impossible for the Imperium.

Aclion wrote:[...] or men attracted only to women who used to be men, [...]

Please do not refer to Transwomen like that. We've always been women, when exactly we figured that out, and when exactly we decided to show that fact to society, is noone's business but our own.

Dmitry II wrote:OOC: If anything, this controversy shows that it would be best to limit the ban on conversion therapies to those targeting sexuality, unless there's clear support from a number of regions with large WA representation and participation otherwise. While I agree with many of Tinfect and Sciongrad arguments, it's clear from this debate that not everyone feels the same way about therapies addressing gender dysphoria. To make sure this bill reaches quorum and manages to pass with very little threat of repeal, I would suggest not dealing with the topic of therapies targeting those with gender dysphoria and other afflictions, and leaving them for another proposal.

That is literally the worst possible reason to remove protections on gender. If powerful regions were going to oppose a ban on conversion therapy for Trans and GNC people, they would oppose it for Gay, Lesbian, Bi, Ace, What-Have-You people as well. Further, there are not two sides to every argument; the controversy here is between Basic Civil Rights, and Child Abuse. Pick a side.

OOC: Obviously this is a very personal issue for me (I'm transgender, male pronouns please, for those who didn't know), but I think people are confusing "psychotherapy" with "conversion therapy". Psychotherapy is often recommended - at least over here, based on myself and about a dozen or so trans people I have talked with - for reasons not to do with the gender identity, but more commonly the anxiety and depression that go with residing in the wrong body and/or being viewed by the society as being the wrong (wrong in the sense of "not what I feel I am") gender. It is to help you feel comfortable with your self, while the way society sees you is changing.

Also, it is part of the whole evaluation process. I could, right now, without any hormone therapies or surgeries walk into the registry office and change my legal identity (name, official sex, getting all the official paperwork and driver's licence and all that changed to mark me as a man with a man's name and social security number) into male one. I actually have the papers, the diagnose, the official proof of it that it's not just in my head. They suggested further psychotherapy to deal with the anxiety issues, but I looked into it and realized the type (because, surprise surprise, there's no just one single kind of psychotherapy that exists) they were suggesting can be done basically with the support of friends and family and learning the right kind of thinking. With this I have managed to reduce my general anxiety levels (I still get easily stressed, but that's unrelated to any gender issues) by incredible amounts.

Does that mean that because I have not started hormone therapy yet or done something surgical to my body that I was not transgender? I have started calling myself Joel, asked that my friends and family call me Joel (they apologize getting the name wrong a lot, but, well, I still tend to answer the phone with my currently still legal name, so them just making the effort counts for a lot!). I've shifted to using male pronouns online - in RL that doesn't matter as Finnish doesn't have gendered pronouns - and I have started to introduce myself as Joel even in RL, even in situations where there is a real possibility that it will subject me to ridicule. None of this would have been possible before the evaluation process and the therapy that was inherently a part of it.

Auralia, if you were put through a conversion therapy to turn you into a woman who's into men, do you honestly think that could be done? If not, why do you think the "opposite" would work on other people?

Tinfect, have courage, girl, things will get better. I hope they will get better to all transgender persons in USA and that someone will eventually force a law through there, too, that makes transitioning a part of the basic medical care, so that everyone can afford it and the therapy that goes with it.

Everyone else, regardless of tech or species, it is not and never will be okay to force someone to try and change a large part of their identity, whether it's gender or sexual orientation. Even if it did work (and science suggests it does not), forcing an identity change of any kind is not okay. Whether that forcing is done with violence, threatened violence, physical, sexual, emotional intimidation, threatening with legal consequences (like getting disowned or fired)... it is not okay.

tl;dr: Golden rule, people, "don't do to others what you don't want to have done to you".

And let's be honest, if conversion therapy really was a thing that works, it should be used to turn everyone female (to reduce aggression) and gay (to stop population growth). There's actually a book that uses that as part of the plot. I suggest reading it to find out how well it works with future tech "conversion therapy"...

"I've come to appreciate boring bureaucracy much more after my official execution..." - Johan Milkus, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.

Araraukar wrote:Everyone else, regardless of tech or species, it is not and never will be okay to force someone to try and change a large part of their identity, whether it's gender or sexual orientation. Even if it did work (and science suggests it does not), forcing an identity change of any kind is not okay. Whether that forcing is done with violence, threatened violence, physical, sexual, emotional intimidation, threatening with legal consequences (like getting disowned or fired)... it is not okay.

It is also a violation of existing WA resolutions. As is denying therapy(if it works) to a willing patient as it happens.

Tinfect wrote:Please do not refer to Transwomen like that. We've always been women, when exactly we figured that out, and when exactly we decided to show that fact to society, is noone's business but our own.

It could have been worse. My original post mentioned Hedgehogs and Red Swingline staplers.

Last edited by Aclion on Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:26 am, edited 3 times in total.

Dmitry II wrote:OOC: If anything, this controversy shows that it would be best to limit the ban on conversion therapies to those targeting sexuality, unless there's clear support from a number of regions with large WA representation and participation otherwise. While I agree with many of Tinfect and Sciongrad arguments, it's clear from this debate that not everyone feels the same way about therapies addressing gender dysphoria. To make sure this bill reaches quorum and manages to pass with very little threat of repeal, I would suggest not dealing with the topic of therapies targeting those with gender dysphoria and other afflictions, and leaving them for another proposal.

That is literally the worst possible reason to remove protections on gender. If powerful regions were going to oppose a ban on conversion therapy for Trans and GNC people, they would oppose it for Gay, Lesbian, Bi, Ace, What-Have-You people as well. Further, there are not two sides to every argument; the controversy here is between Basic Civil Rights, and Child Abuse. Pick a side.

OOC: I apologize if previous comment appeared to be rude or offensive, but I strongly believe that that, until we can be certain that regions would strongly support a ban that extends to therapies addressing gender, I would suggest placing it into a more comprehensive bill that better tackles this issue. Otherwise, this may give intolerant or heavily conservative regions a reason to justify their disapproval towards this proposal, and possibly a reason to repeal this bill should it pass. I am still in strong support of the ban on conversion therapy targeting sexuality, and would personally support a separate bill that dealt with banning or placing very strict regulations on therapies on gender identity. Regardless, whether or not UM leaves gender identity into the definition of conversion therapy, however, I will support this proposal.

Tinfect wrote:No. For the love of god don't drag Techwank into this clusterfuck of a debate. For the record, the Imperium is one of the most advanced Nations that actively participates in the World Assembly, and it is more or less impossible for the Imperium.

"In subclause b in the concerned clause, given that you have defined conversion therapy as encompassing multiple types, I recommend removing “physical” from the sentence."

A representative democracy with a parliament of 535 seatsKenmoria is Laissez-Faire on economy but centre-left on social issuesLocated in Europe and border France to the right and Spain belowNS stats and policies are not canon, use the factbooks

Not in the WA despite coincidentally following nearly all resolutionsThis is due to a problem with how the WA contradicts democracyHowever we do have a WA mission and often participate in draftingCurrent ambassador: James Lewitt