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Sunday, February 26, 2006

Fetus Wars

It's funny, yesterday I post on the South Dakota abortion law, and was complimented by Gun Toting Liberal for the civil discourse around here on such a contentious issue, then today find a place that isn't having such a nice discussion on it.

I was lead there because a regular reader/commenter here, Lone Pony, delinked them after her heartfelt comment on the issue was met with ridicule, and pretty snide remarks.

One of the funny things about the blog having that fight is the owners disdain for statistics, and numbers. So, I thought I'd toss a few of the statistics on abortion up here (From The Alan Guttmacher Institute):

On the basis of our survey findings, we estimate that of the 1.3 million women who underwent induced abortions in 2000, 608,000 had not been using a contraceptive method around the time they became pregnant, 610,000 had been using a method but not consistently or correctly, and 95,000 had thought they were using the method perfectly but became pregnant because of method failure.

That comes out to 7.6% who got abortions got them because of an actual birth control failure, which is much smaller than the shrill folks on the other side of the argument use.

The other idea is that poor women have more abortions based on less birth control, but the same study found that the difference in use rates between those in poverty and those not in poverty was so small as to be insignificant!

If you'd like to look at more numbers, and conclusions from them, here are two references:Abortion Surveillance --- United States, 2002 (Centers For Disease Control)Contraceptive Use Among U.S. Women Having Abortions in 2000-2001 (Guttmacher)

I don't get the logic that says because you messed up (or didn't use) birth control, now you must be punished by having a baby you don't want. Why not just set a fine? Mandatory classes and sex probation until BC certificate is earned. ;)

However, I do agree there should be restrictions in the third trimester, though I don't know the stats on how many women/doctors really just decide to abort an eight-month pregnancy on a whim. I think these are rare cases and only for severe health reaons.

Re the nasties: this is a tough issue with extremely passionate opinions on both sides that are almost impossible to reconcile, EXCEPT for the issue of BC, which most reasonable people could agree is the solution. Just make better BC available to everyone, etc.

I have been told to go F*** yourself by the Conservative UAW guy because he did not like a comment I made regarding my being against the Iraq war, so you don't need to be a "lieberal" (one of ABFREEDOM's fav insults) to attract heat from the right wing. So don't tell me that conservatives are any better in this regard. What about the pastor who goes to the burials of gays and disrupts them by telling the mourners that their loved one is now burning in hell? No, this behavior is not confined to lefties, but crosses party lines. Personally, I am against abortion and would encourage my daughter to have the baby and somehow, as a family, we will cope with it(my wife and I have had a fight over this, and we were just talking "what if". She doesn't feel "but that's our GRANDCHILD!" which is how I would feel). I do not feel that it should be completely illegal, so I'm with Paula. Calling it murder is not going to convince anybody of anything more than you are trying to provoke a reaction, not a discussion. I blame Rush Limbaugh and others on the left as well who have polarized the average citizens with comments that are designed to whip up disagreement (and therefore ratings). I can't tell you how many "conservatives" have called me a hippie, lier (about being a veteran), etc., because I didn't agree with their radical opinions.All this about a guy (me)who voted for Dole in 1996, owns guns, voted for McCain in the 2000 primary, etc. "You are either for us or against us". CP- I do not want to live in the RWSA (Right Wing States of America). I am a centrist, believing that both sides bring valid views to the table a rejecting fringe elements from either party, whether they be gay marriage advocates or Operation Rescue.

Lone Pony, I'm sorry that your feelings were hurt, but maybe, instead of digging in your heels and hardening your position, you should take your lumps and be grown up about it. The thing about the internet is that you don't get the body language and therefore people tend to say things that they normally would not if you were in "polite company". I encourage all to listen to the other side and try to find common ground. We are all Americans, after all. CP-sorry for such a long post. I like your blog because it IS a civil place to discuss differing views.

Ted: Being told, "to go F*** yourself" by anyone is an unfortunate situation in that we could find more constructive ways in communicating. "lieberal" is a favorite of mine as well. "What about the pastor who goes to the burials of gays and disrupts them by telling the mourners that their loved one is now burning in hell?" This person has no business pastoring. His forthright actions contradict his position and calling (if he was called) in this life. No, this behavior is not confined to lefties, but crosses party lines. True! It's not a party issue, it's a heart issue. Though the ULSR troubles me.

Personally, I am against abortion and would encourage my daughter to have the baby and somehow, as a family, we will cope with it(my wife and I have had a fight over this, and we were just talking "what if". She doesn't feel "but that's our GRANDCHILD!" which is how I would feel). Glad to here, though were you to believe otherwise, that is your right and we all will be accountable to God for our choices. I do not feel that it should be completely illegal, so I'm with Paula. My issue here is that this view (I'm speculating here on this being your view), negates the reality of the life in the womb. Even the idea of protecting the life of the mother is what I think is wrong. Whenever I am married again, should I have children again, I will leave the situation in God's hands. It is not being flippant, but real. If God has it for the mother to leave at that time (Hebrews 9:27); she's going and there is nothing we can do about it.

Calling it murder is not going to convince anybody of anything more than you are trying to provoke a reaction, not a discussion. Agreed.

Tim: Fred Phelps is a looney and a hateful man. I don't know any conservative Christian who supports him. I abhor his tactics and think he needs to be in a mental hospital. Please don't ever lump him in with good people on the right.

Since I am from Kansas City and he is nearby in Kansas I've thought of doing a post on his reprehensible behavior and making sure people know he speaks for only a small # of people.

Why not just set a fine? Mandatory classes and sex probation until BC certificate is earned. ;)

We have a lot of folks that should be in that category already, Paula.Unfortunately the courts have said we can't require them to use birth control, and can't cut off tax payer funding of their kids.

On the serious side, there are so many people in this country waiting to adopt babies that they are adopting from China and other countries. So why not have the kid and put it up for adoption, not ruin it's life because you messed up in yours?

Tim, I don't agree with anyone of any stripe using the "F* off" arguement when they don't agree with someone. It's also why I've only banned on person from here (he runs a radical islamic site, and kind of pissed me off).I'd rather toss logic (as you have) and reason back at them, and let them look like a fool.

And don't worry Tim, I've been called some interesting names by conservatives for a few of my stands on certain issues (including this one).

Jeff, your numbers are right, which is one of the reasons I don't like the procedure. How many Einsteins have been terminated?As for Tim, he needs to vent more than see a shrink. This is as good an outlet as any.

LMC, NEO, you guys are welcome for the information. Occasionally you find that if you share actual facts and stats some folks will come around on an arguenent. Some won't. My mission isn't to convert everyone to a pro-life stance, but instead give a person on the fence something else to think about.

And LMC, Tim is right, beat up on Phelps, he does give good Christians (which I DO NOT consider myself to be) a bad name.

I still believe "murder" is the correct name for ending innocent life. Would "kill" be better? I won't use PC terms when people need to hear the words.

Tim - what bothered me so much about being called those names is that it brought back memories of a man that used to hit me, then call me worthless and useless and then smile at me. I am even more determined than ever to fight people like that. (Heels dug in deeper.) I've taken all the lumps lying down that I'm going to. It's time for me to stand up. Yeah, it hurt, but I came back fighting and it feels good. (With a little help from CP.)

CP, where are the statistics for number of abortions performed for people who are correctly using the only 100% birth control method? While I am certain there are a few abortions given to rape victims (and I wouldn't argue against that)? And what is the number of abortions performed on rape victims?

There is the one thing that scares the hell out of me about restricting abortions to rape victims (along with mother/baby health). God forbid, my son has consensual sex with some young lady (against my counsel, of course) and she becomes pregnant, which she may not want. What would keep her from accusing my son of raping her in order to get the abortion? It was bad enough when I was a young adult wondering if some young lady would suddenly accuse me of that. Now give them motivation for the accusations, that's trouble.

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"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares about more than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature who can never be free except made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." --John Stuart Mill