I really don't get that huddle argument. Passing the ball isn't difficult at all, we pass 5x in about 2 seconds on 25 and it's always clean and efficient. If you do it for every huddle it should be absolute clockwork after a few attempts with 3 huddles. Not comparing difficulty at all here, just that this particular argument bugs me.

Also, brute forcing spouts? It does the same damage in 10 and there are less of them with less people around you. Ground effects have always been easier to see and dodge on 10, that's just how it is. I raided 10m for three tiers, spacing and ground effects are the least of your worries.

oh huddle? where you have 5+ healers and most raids just completely ignore it on 25man? well it's fun to deal with on 10man if both healers get huddle.
oh waterspout? does the same damage on 25man, that's cute.

Btw, funny having all those 10men guilds saying how easy it is (and it really is, that's not my point) while the title specifically says '25man'.

Title is also specifying only on how many guilds have killed it, not if its easier on 10 or 25 man its just side banter. I pretty much summed up the answer to the post in my first sentence/post followed by my opinion of the fight. You shouldn't have started 10 man vs 25 man in the first place if you're going to point something like that out. It also seems the general consensus is that's easier on both 10 and 25.

Actually posted that because the only answers OP had were from 10men pov.

Answer wouldn't matter if its from a 10 or 25 man point of view. The answer is easily attainable by simply assuming that most guilds who have killed heroic sha by now have also downed H Elite protectors as that's the general order of progression.

We downed Heroic Elite Protectors 4 weeks ago. 3 attempts and it was dead. The encounter is actually easier than heroic protectors since the nerf. A lot easier actually. We ended up trying it with more melee this time. Six to be exact, and it was still a joke.

oh huddle? where you have 5+ healers and most raids just completely ignore it on 25man? well it's fun to deal with on 10man if both healers get huddle.
oh waterspout? does the same damage on 25man, that's cute.

Ignoring huddles? Are you for real? Have you ever see how it looks when 4 healers get huddled sub 15 % while 7-8 adds shoot 5x spine each at the raid? My guild killed Sha hc in both versions and damage on the raid difference is huge. And waterspout on 25 people where you need to be careful where you move not to kill someone while in 10 man you have all the space in the world.

Originally Posted by Injin

No, I'm roundly rejecting your idea that LFR isn't raiding.
The raiding scene is larger than in wrath - because LFR is raiding. It replaces the pugs that were a feature of Wotlk.
Tell you what, I remove LFR and you remove pugs.

Ignoring huddles? Are you for real? Have you ever see how it looks when 4 healers get huddled sub 15 % while 7-8 adds shoot 5x spine each at the raid? My guild killed Sha hc in both versions and damage on the raid difference is huge. And waterspout on 25 people where you need to be careful where you move not to kill someone while in 10 man you have all the space in the world.

If the damage in your 25-man group was at the level it should be across the board, you would never see 7-8 adds and this "insane damage" in 25-man would not exist. The fact that you're seeing less raid damage in 10-man is most likely because those ten people you're bringing are all collectively playing at a top level. You aren't getting so many adds during phase two because those ten people are bringing better overall damage output compared to your 25-man group.

As for waterspout, sure, I'll agree that 10-man groups have more room which makes it a bit easier to avoid the mechanic. However, 10-mans have less raid cool-downs to use and each individual player in a 10-man has to play near perfect the entire fight to get a kill. Not to mention, every player (almost) in a 10-man environment is required to take on multiple responsibilities versus a 25-man where, for example a Hunter friend of mine, has to do nothing but dps the boss the entire time and do nothing else.

Arguing that 10-man and 25-man both have their strengths and weaknesses is completely valid. Making 10-mans out to be the easy-mode version of raiding that requires very little skill, however, is completely incorrect.

If the damage in your 25-man group was at the level it should be across the board, you would never see 7-8 adds and this "insane damage" in 25-man would not exist. The fact that you're seeing less raid damage in 10-man is most likely because those ten people you're bringing are all collectively playing at a top level. You aren't getting so many adds during phase two because those ten people are bringing better overall damage output compared to your 25-man group.

As for waterspout, sure, I'll agree that 10-man groups have more room which makes it a bit easier to avoid the mechanic. However, 10-mans have less raid cool-downs to use and each individual player in a 10-man has to play near perfect the entire fight to get a kill. Not to mention, every player (almost) in a 10-man environment is required to take on multiple responsibilities versus a 25-man where, for example a Hunter friend of mine, has to do nothing but dps the boss the entire time and do nothing else.

Arguing that 10-man and 25-man both have their strengths and weaknesses is completely valid. Making 10-mans out to be the easy-mode version of raiding that requires very little skill, however, is completely incorrect.

Every first 25 man guilds kills happened with waves of 8 adds +- one wave. I wasn't implying it was easier/harder, it was a response to the poster claiming how you can ignore huddles in 25 man which is quite a ridiculous statement.

Originally Posted by Injin

No, I'm roundly rejecting your idea that LFR isn't raiding.
The raiding scene is larger than in wrath - because LFR is raiding. It replaces the pugs that were a feature of Wotlk.
Tell you what, I remove LFR and you remove pugs.

If the damage in your 25-man group was at the level it should be across the board, you would never see 7-8 adds and this "insane damage" in 25-man would not exist. The fact that you're seeing less raid damage in 10-man is most likely because those ten people you're bringing are all collectively playing at a top level. You aren't getting so many adds during phase two because those ten people are bringing better overall damage output compared to your 25-man group.

As for waterspout, sure, I'll agree that 10-man groups have more room which makes it a bit easier to avoid the mechanic. However, 10-mans have less raid cool-downs to use and each individual player in a 10-man has to play near perfect the entire fight to get a kill. Not to mention, every player (almost) in a 10-man environment is required to take on multiple responsibilities versus a 25-man where, for example a Hunter friend of mine, has to do nothing but dps the boss the entire time and do nothing else.

Arguing that 10-man and 25-man both have their strengths and weaknesses is completely valid. Making 10-mans out to be the easy-mode version of raiding that requires very little skill, however, is completely incorrect.

Not saying 10man is easy mode. It's just not a concern for me. I don't do 10man raids because I don't feel that's raiding. Thus, 25man in my post. 10mans concern me not at all.

No, I'm roundly rejecting your idea that LFR isn't raiding.
The raiding scene is larger than in wrath - because LFR is raiding. It replaces the pugs that were a feature of Wotlk.
Tell you what, I remove LFR and you remove pugs.