Uncharted Territory: Notre Dame Prepares to Use First Grayshirt

They say don’t worry about the numbers, there will always be room. For Notre Dame recruit Marist Liufau it may turn out that there is in fact not enough room at the inn. Last week it was reported that the Fighting Irish have been planning to grayshirt the Honolulu linebacker for the 2019 football season, a decision that if it occurs would be a first in modern Notre Dame history.

First off, it must be stressed that not all grayshirts are created equal. The practice really blew up over the last 15 years or so but usually flies under the radar when used across the country. Still, several high-profile grayshirts have been covered by the media in recent years specifically when a recruit is told he’ll have to wait to enroll right before National Signing Day. Effectively, a school made a last-minute decision to recruit over a committed prospect in their own fold and stories like this have drawn considerable criticism in recent years.

Therefore, the morality involved with asking a recruit to grayshirt revolves heavily around communication, when the recruit learns about the plan, and perhaps most importantly to the process how the recruit feels about it. Grayshirting is pretty uncommon for the simple fact that when recruits learn of such a plan from a coaching staff they typically decide to move on to another school if possible.

Back to Liufau who was the 20th commit of the 2019 class back on November 14, 2018. He had visited Notre Dame a few days prior for the Florida State game when he received his scholarship offer. As news broke recently about Liufau’s potential grayshirt it came with the note that the Irish coaching staff was and has been upfront about this possibility and the player appears fine with it if it comes to pass. Interestingly, five days after Liufau committed Notre Dame received a commitment from 4-star Georgia linebacker JD Bertrand while publicly doing so as a walk-on.

Clearly scholarship numbers were much tighter than usual in the last month of the football season.

The difference between Liufau and Bertrand was that the former signed a National Letter of Intent as part of the 2019 Notre Dame recruiting class while the latter did not and will pay his own way beginning this June.

This is a bit of a twist on a usual grayshirt as normally the recruit doesn’t sign their NLI which allows them to either sign elsewhere at a later date or enroll at the school as a part-time student to get acclimated without counting towards the program scholarship limit. As mentioned, grayshirting is very uncommon because the vast majority of recruits will not want to pay for a semester at minimum without the ability to practice with the team if there are other scholarship options available elsewhere. With Liufau, had he not signed he’d obviously be free to commit somewhere else at any point and sign a NLI in February.

Since he did sign, he’s bound to Notre Dame until June when freshmen report. If there isn’t a scholarship available Liufau will be released from his NLI and free to sign and play football elsewhere.

Based on the reports last week, Liufau will wait to see if a scholarship is available and if not attend a prep school for 2019 and enroll at Notre Dame as a scholarship player in January 2020, and maybe in June 2020.

So, is this a big deal?

It depends. One the one hand, if Notre Dame was upfront about the situation and Liufau still wants to wait that long to come to Notre Dame that’s certainly the athlete’s prerogative. In the days since I’ve seen a lot of people celebrating that a recruit would be this willing to come to Notre Dame under less-than-ideal circumstances and how that speaks to the current strength of the program.

Nevertheless, I still don’t like any attempt to grayshirt. Even if it’s true that a situation like this–where a high 3-star solid recruit is willing to push back his enrollment–is bound to be extremely rare I don’t like the ethics behind it. The situation with Bertrand where his family can afford tuition until a scholarship opens up is sticky too but it’s a crappy situation if someone like Liufau can’t financially afford that type of decision and isn’t coming to campus at the same time.

True, the communication involved with a gray shirt is important, even crucial, to the process. However, while trying to grayshirt someone at the last moment is clearly dirty and unethical to nearly everyone, the softer side of recruiting someone, offering a scholarship, and allowing them to commit and sign a NLI when you’ve let them know about a grayshirt far in advance is unethical too–just less unethical.

Many will disagree.

I am probably old-school when it comes to this. In the larger picture, the 2019 class was supposed to be small and 17 players were committed by the end of this past summer. The coaching staff didn’t set the world on fire for 2019 recruiting, took a lot of solid if not unspectacular players early, and put themselves in the position where come November they were really unsure about the availability of scholarships.

I don’t really blame the Notre Dame coaches for taking advantage of this situation (especially as it’s likely to be a rare case) but if it were me I would’ve simply passed on Liufau in this scenario.

Additionally, about a month prior to Liufau committing the Fighting Irish coaches had increased their recruiting of Washington linebacker commit Asa Turner and it appeared briefly that he may flip to Notre Dame. A mere 12 days after Liufau committed there was more news that Clark Lea had visited Turner and the Irish were still working for the flip. Even as the early Signing Period approached the temperature among Notre Dame fans was that Turner wasn’t a realistic flip due to numbers and the absurdity of signing a 5th linebacker in the class.

As it happened, Turner backed away from signing early and remains undecided between Washington and Notre Dame. Even if you don’t think it’s unethical I still believe it’s a poor move to be talking about a grayshirt for Liufau while waiting on Turner (and Isaiah Foskey) to come aboard too.

Of course, it may all turn out to be nothing, Notre Dame will be down to 83 scholarships in May, and Liufau will arrive in South Bend in June with the rest of his classmates. That’s probably even slightly better than 50/50 odds at this point, especially if Turner ultimately sticks with Washington.

Be that as it may, if Liufau actually does take a grayshirt I’m interested to see how it plays out. If a scholarship opens up in mid-July this summer does Notre Dame make plans for Liufau to arrive for August 26th and the first day of fall classes? Can he even arrive in early August after the summer session and before fall classes so that he doesn’t miss fall camp? Are we sure this scholarship would even go to Liufau and not Bertrand or preferred walk-on kicker Harrison Leonard?

The logistics of this type of grayshirt make it seem likely that if a scholarship doesn’t open up prior to June than Liufau won’t come to Notre Dame at any point during the summer. In fact, he may not want to do that anyway and risk coming in so late and starting his eligibility clock in what would almost assuredly amount to a forced redshirt.

There’s also a lot of trust placed in Liufau that he can spend the summer at home and a semester or more at a prep school without heading elsewhere. If he does in fact get towards the end of May with plans to grayshirt and is released from his NLI, I think the odds go up considerably that he will ultimately sign with another school in June and/or commit elsewhere in December 2019. That’s a risk Notre Dame is obviously willing to take but as much as Liufau may want to sincerely come to South Bend it’s a long time to wait and pass up a scholarship elsewhere.

This is why–even if a prospective student-athlete is on board with the grayshirt–it’s a bit unethical to put a recruit in that position to decide. If Liufau decides in June that he’d rather sign with someone like Arizona or even Utah State I’d be disappointed that Notre Dame allowed him to sign a NLI only to see him jump ship at the last moment because there wasn’t space in South Bend and he reconsidered waiting in limbo for 6 or more months. It’s certainly far from the most sketchy things in recruiting but I think Notre Dame should be better than that with recruits.

Slimy? No. Alabama telling a kid he has a scholarship and then telling him a week before signing day – or, as in Jarez Parks’s case, *on* signing day – is slimy. Telling a kid months in advance that you really like him and you’ll give him a scholarship if you can is entirely different. Liufau had nine other FBS offers – from Arizona, Boise State, Hawaii, Oregon, San Diego State, USC, Utah State, and Wazzu. He made an informed choice to wait to get into ND rather than accept one of those other offers. Nobody pulled a bait-and-switch or forced him to sign in December. He knew the landscape well in advance, according to all reliable sources, and made this choice himself.

Jarez Parks didn’t make an informed choice to greyshirt at Alabama. He turned down other programs thinking he had a scholarship in his pocket, and Alabama yanked the rug out when he tried to send his NLI. That’s an entirely different animal. That’s what slimy is.

This isn’t really that different from offering a kid a PWO spot. I’m sure if Liufau’s family could swing the cost the staff would welcome him this year regardless, as they’re doing with JD Bertrand and Harrison Leonard and as they’ve done in the past with any number of PWOs. I don’t see anything wrong with telling a kid “we like you but we don’t have a spot right now.” I have a big problem with telling a kid “we have a spot for you” and then changing it late in the process. That, by all accounts, is not remotely what happened here.

As for the mechanics of the process mentioned elsewhere in the thread… He signed a NLI to enroll at ND in 2019. If he doesn’t do that, meaning the fall enrollment deadline passes without him on campus, the NLI becomes null and void and he’s essentially a free agent again. If he changes his mind before the fall and wants to sign somewhere else, I’m 100% sure the staff would release him from the letter, if for no other reason than the negative press would be enormous. Likewise, I’m 100% sure he would get a scholarship no later than the 2020 class for the same reason.

Finally, if you want to be at 85 every year, this is the kind of thing we’re going to have to do. So either accept this or accept having, say, up to 5 scholarship slots empty every year like we used to.

I can respect the difference of opinion. I still think it’s crappy to grayshirt a kid because he’s poor while PWO’s are involved in the program from day one. We see things differently vis-a-vis the player having every right to not sign and go somewhere else.

However, I don’t agree at all with your last two sentences. We don’t really need to get to 85 every single year it’s not that big of a deal. We’re usually at 82, 83, or 84 and give out an extra scholarship here or there. It’s not like ND has been struggling down at 77 scholarships every year. We absolutely do not need to start grayshirting kids just to get to 85.

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4 months ago

hooks orpik

They’re not grayshirting him because he’s poor- is that even a fair assumption that his family is “poor”? It’s the numbers of the scholarship, which was communicated ahead of time, from the 247 article you linked.

“I just know that I signed,” said Liufau, who made it clear that he’s not considering any other schools now and won’t be in the future. “I committed, signed and all I know is that I’m going to be there. I don’t know when though.”

The kid wants to go to Notre Dame and seems willing to wait. It would stink if the numbers pushed him out. Who knows, perhaps it’s wise for him not to commit to paying for ND, if there’s no scholarship open they can go separate ways and he can get a free education and play somewhere else.

My point is if it’s really no big deal because it’s just like a PWO spot then IF his family doesn’t have the means to do what Bertrand is doing it’s not a fair comparison to me.

I know he wants to come, as would many other recruits I’m sure. I just don’t think that ‘want’ necessitates going through with a grayshirt, even if Liufau is okay with it.

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4 months ago

Scarponi

Isn’t *not* being allowed to grayshirt what affects him if he’s poor?

1) A school that allows PWO and grayshirting (in an up front way):
[Wealthy player]: could PWO, or grayshirt, or take a scholarship elsewhere.
[Poor player]: could grayshirt or take a scholarship elsewhere.

2) A school that allows PWO but will never allow grayshirting in any way:
[Wealthy player]: could PWO or take a scholarship elsewhere.
[Poor player] has no choice.

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4 months ago

hooks orpik

I don’t see it as a negative that Liufau may get grayshirted and guys like Bertrand or Joe Schmidt go the extra mile to pay to go to a school when they have opportunities for a free education elsewhere….If anything, the latter group is just the big time exception to the rule. Not many people would choose that path. And don’t some football players lose a scholarship and end up paying their own way into Bama? They don’t usually fit the profile of “wealthy” families…

Pretty much anyone (unless you’re like a true 1% or even wealthier type) would take the route of a scholarship somewhere rather than delay or pay their own way. And I have no idea what Liufau’s situation is so it’s also odd to paint him as “poor” but that’s just my opinion that it’s not a shame someone is getting left behind, it’s just pretty unique for someone to go that extra mile, regardless of financial situation.

Or, ND could’ve made room for him like the other 20 kids. That’s an option too!

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4 months ago

kiwifan

With respect, why is it for you to judge Eric? The kid is making a decision he’s comfortable with and ND has been above board with him. I don’t see an issue here.

I’d also add that it’s not uncommon for kids to back out on their NLIs. Sometimes multiple times. Or quit mid year to transfer if someone beats them out, a recent, spreading phenomenon. Not to mention refusing to play, as Clearwall noted.

We’re not greyshirting him because he’s poor. We’re telling him we’ve prioritized other guys ahead of him and might not have a scholarship for him in August. If he has that info and he chooses to wait to go to ND that’s his choice. If he chooses to enroll in June and as a PWO and pay his own way or get what financial aid a normal student might get, that’s his choice. If he chooses to go somewhere else instead and get a scholarship there immediately, that’s his choice. The flip side of your “want to” note below is that I don’t see where ND should be compelled to give him a scholarship now just because he wants to play here.

I think that being at 85 or as close to it as possible *with legitimate scholarship players* is a key part of competing. So yes, to me, there’s a material difference between having 85 recruited scholarship players and having 82 scholarship players and three walk-ons who got a nice gift. Those three extra guys are three more chances to find someone who develops into a real player, three more chances to fill out a little depth, etc. Yeah, that possibility exists with converted walk-ons too (hi Chris Finke!), but the probability is much lower. The scholarship reduction from 92 to 85 reduced our margin of error for development to zero.

We need to get guys like JD Bertrand and Marist Liufau to be at 85 “true” scholarship players. We need to be brutally honest with guys who aren’t going to play to get some of them to move on. In the past we’ve lamented keeping around dead weight that isn’t performing. Well, then we have to come to terms with the methods necessary to not have dead weight. Hell, this isn’t even new – Lou famously said that “motivation is simple – you eliminate those who are not motivated.” How do you think those guys were eliminated?

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4 months ago

eyerish9299

Still doesn’t seem right to me. I think my major issue is that, from my understanding, he won’t know and be able to make a decision to go elsewhere until June. I think if he were able to decide NOW that he wants to go somewhere else I would feel different about it.

He could’ve made a decision two months ago if he wanted! I don’t understand this point at all. He was told from the beginning that we wouldn’t know if a scholarship would be available for him until later, and *with that knowledge in hand* he signed with us anyway. This was not news to him. He knew what he was doing.

I’m also, as noted, 110%-bleeping-positive that if he wanted to back out of the NLI we would release him from it.

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4 months ago

aheadofme

This is a key point – that in order for this to be unethical we’d have to do something at odds with what we’ve communicated, i.e. deny a release from his NLI. I don’t believe we’d do that in this situation. So far, school and commit seem to be on the same page. If Eric wants to argue slippery slope, fair enough, but there is no ethical issue here on its face.

For example, the coaches could tell an incoming freshmen he should transfer after fall camp because he’ll never play. Some people think that’s okay, others don’t.

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4 months ago

tlndma

Depends how that’s worded too. “I want you to transfer, because you’ll never play” or ” Just to be honest, I don’t see you getting playing time. You might have a decision to make but, it’s up to you”. I would suppose most kids would want to know. Tough beans what people outside the program think.
Communication might not be the end all re ethics. I’d put honesty at the top of the list though.

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4 months ago

eyerish9299

Brendan, can he back out of his NLI anytime he wants? I’m honestly asking because I don’t know. I’m not saying it’s unethical, just seems a little slimy to me. Feels like a slippery slope. As we’ve discussed millions of times with recruits giving verbals, these are young kids who at this moment might feel one way, but in 3 months his whole life might have changed and he feels completely differently. If he can’t get out of his NLI until June, but has since decided he doesn’t or can’t go to ND, i don’t think he should be bound by his NLI if we’re not bound to giving him a scholarship.

I think it would make sense if he was able to take visits and be recruited during this winter and spring so if there wasn’t a scholarship available at ND by June he’d have a better sense of his options elsewhere around the country if that’s what he wanted.

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4 months ago

nd09hls12

Eh, I guess it doesn’t bother me too much so long as they were up front from the beginning. I think it’s fine so long as, before he committed, they told him: (1) he definitely had a spot in the 2020 class; (2) he may have a spot in the 2019 class; (3) they still may recruit kids at his position for the 2019 class; and (4) if a spot opens up in 2019, they won’t *make* him come for 2019 (or 2020), but instead he would be able to make the call as to when he joins.

Now, do I have doubts they were that straightforward up front? Yeah, that seems a bit unlikely. But I think that’d be an entirely ethical way to go about it.

My understanding of the rule is that if Notre Dame has a scholarship available, Liufau is bound by his NLI to come to Notre Dame in June. Like I mentioned in the article, the application isn’t super clear to me regarding how ND shows it has room and when Liufau would enroll. But, I believe if there’s room, he either has to come to ND or go the Eddie Vanderdoes route to get out of his NLI.

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4 months ago

nd09hls12

Interesting. I guess if push came to shove and ND Football blocked him from going somewhere else, that’d be bad. I like to think they wouldn’t do that.

It’s hard to get a handle on things when we don’t know exactly what was said to Liufau and his parents. Of course, the recruiting sites are going to lean heavily in the coaches favor. But, Marist does shoulder some blame IF he decides in the summer he’d rather go somewhere else when he signed his NLI this past December. I just wouldn’t have signed if I were him but that’s another article.

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4 months ago

MikeyB

I’d also really hope they told him before he started making visits to ND (which seems unlikely to me). I think these kids only get 5 official visits that can be paid for by schools; if we offered a player a scholarship and he wasted a visit on us without knowing it was a grayshirt, that seems pretty crappy.

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4 months ago

hooks orpik

I don’t much like it either, but it seems the alternative was the old way they used to manage the roster number and come in light of 85 literally every single year. In order not to do that, the only other way seems to be to go north of 85 with commitments and see how the chips fall with higher ranked players.

From how I read the article, if Turner doesn’t come, that could well mean a 2019 scholarship for Liufau, right? (I highly doubt they’re giving a scholarship to a 2nd kicker, and one who agreed to be a preferred walk on before they give it to a kid who signed a NLI). If Turner doesn’t join ND and they didn’t sign Liufau they’re out in the cold. It’s best for the program to go this route and ensure at least Liufau but also still take a better player if he wants to come.

It is a slimy type of deal but that’s major college football. Have to push the boundaries of the roster space in order to build the best team possible and compete for titles. I see the practicality of it. Not really happy about it or going to defend the practice beyond seeing how it’s needed in this day and age.

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4 months ago

dannan14

This is pretty close to my take. For years ND was under full on scholarships. i don’t know if avoiding a crunch was the reason or some level of incompetence was the culprit, but Liufau’s situation is inevitable if they’re trying to come in at 85 every year. It’s unfortunate, but with proper communication about the situation i’m okay with it. i’m stoked that ND still has the prestige that would get a kid to wait a semester or two. It’s a helluva lot better than the way it was before scholarship limits. In the 40’s ND signed many players simply to keep them from going to opponents. Some could have started anywhere in the country yet never saw the field.

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4 months ago

kiwifan

I don’t see anything slimy at all. He’s making an informed decision. In all practicality he’s free to change his mind. The coaches are looking for the best 85 they can get, ethically.

I’ve seen really slimy things in the corporate world. This? Not slimy.

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4 months ago

gambit1077

Grayshirts can be a difficult ethical situation when a kid shows up expecting a scholarship and can’t be fit in, but I disagree that it is in this case. Liufau has, by both his and the staff’s statements, been kept fully aware of his situation.

“No matter when the time comes, he only wants to play college ball for the Fighting Irish.”

If this is Liufau’s dream and the University is willing to work with him to make it come true the idea that there is some ethical catch about having him enroll a semester later than he would otherwise seems totally backwards to me. If the University used his willingness to defer to get another semester of tape on him and then revoked the scholarship I would absolutely have a problem with that, but until then it’s the University and recruiting staff making a kid’s dreams come true.

I just don’t see it wrapped up in a Disney “making dreams come true” package. I put that almost entirely on the coaches because if they truly want to make it happen then they should’ve made room for him in the first place. Pushing him down the line–when we may find out it’s not Liufau’s dream to play at Notre Dame–isn’t a tactic I think the coaches should be praised for at the moment.

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4 months ago

gambit1077

Football program: Okay [any marginal recruit] we can’t promise you a spot in this class because of a numbers crunch, so you can go elsewhere, walk-on here and pay your own way, or we can guarantee you a scholarship starting one semester later (January 2020 instead of August 2019).

Marginal recruit: I have reviewed my options and of my own free will determined that my preferred result will be to take the one semester delayed scholarship with your program.

Assuming the program doesn’t go back on its word where is the ethical dilemma in the above situation?

Just reading, “We can’t promise you a spot now but guarantee you a scholarship later” is a tough one to swallow in the murky world of recruiting.

I’ll cop to thinking Notre Dame isn’t really doing what’s best for him (something I think is important) because of all the drama that comes with waiting so long, enrolling in a prep school, etc. But you’re right, if that’s what Liufau wants to do well I guess we’ll see.

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4 months ago

kiwifan

Sorry, but if the coaches were honest they’ve done their job. Until he’s a student at ND it’s not their mission to “do what’s best” for him.

If honesty means Notre Dame doing what’s best for Notre Dame, I agree.

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4 months ago

MikeyB

So this will never happen, but if grayshirting is going to be allowed, the NCAA should make a scholarship limit change. Maybe give 2 or 3 additional scholarships to players who must redshirt their freshman year no matter what. I’m not sure exactly what would be the best case scenario here, but I’m really not a fan of any situation that puts a teenager in a high stress, high risk situation like this. But then again, NCAA rules are designed to make things better for the players, so there’s no reason to think they’d try to figure out a useful solution here for the athletes.

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4 months ago

hooks orpik

If that happens though won’t teams just then blow by the 87-88 limit and be in the same boat? I would think they’ll push the limits no matter how you set it. Unless there becomes some hard and fast rule that every NLI offered and signed = a spot on the roster for 4 years.

But that is too tough for medicals, so then you have a loophole where the less-than-honest can remove players on medical reasons (as we know that some teams already kinda, sorta do for less than totally necessary).

I see what you’re trying to do and agree in principle, but given the climate of major football I’m guessing some programs are always going to skirt the rules and find a way to put the kids in a bad spot. All for any rule that helps the player but teams are going to jockey and try to amass as much and the best talent that they possibly can no matter what.

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4 months ago

MrTgon

I agree with Eric that the grey shirt practice is unethical in every form, even if some cases are less unethical than others. So instead of engaging in even unethical-lite practices, why doesn’t a place like ND, which is clearly concerned with the ethics of this given their open communication about it with the player, simply offer the kid a non-football scholarship until 2020?

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4 months ago

hooks orpik

That makes sense to me, but I see “non football scholarships” being used by other institutions to still exceed an 85-player roster limit where you’re still giving a scholarship and getting a football player, it’s just not counting against the limit..

Or, I’m no expert, but if it goes the other way that he wouldn’t be allowed to play in any capacity, but being on a non-football scholarship would effect eligibility, right? That wouldn’t seem worth it for the player or the school to burn a year like that.

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4 months ago

MrTgon

Good point. I think you’re probably right that it would burn a year of eligibility – I’m not really sure how that works though.

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4 months ago

tlndma

So, you guys are saying they should cheat ? You can’t just give a kid a non- football scholarship.#1, other sports are out. #2, There has to be merit in awarding it.

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4 months ago

hooks orpik

Not saying that at all. Just shooting the breeze to talk out different scenarios that could potentially protect players from losing a scholarship. There’s probably no simple or easy answer since in practice football programs will always crank it up to the limit and that’s always going to put someone in a tough spot.

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4 months ago

tlndma

Where do you see other schools giving non football scholarships to football players ?

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4 months ago

Irishchamp23

Yea I was trying to think of similar ways to improve the system. What if they made the 85 number an average over 2 years (or something like that) but there was a limit to the carry over (like there would still be a max of 90 say – the specifics would have to be hammered out). So the idea would be if last year we were at 83, then the next year we could be at 87. That way you wouldn’t really be incentivized to push the limit because it would require a year where you are down 5 scholarships in order to be up 5 scholarships (maybe even only put the limit at 2 or 3 anyway – so the max would be 87/88 which would require the previous year to be at 82/83).

On the other hand it also means teams won’t have to push the limits to get to 85 because if they fall a couple short they could make it up the following year.

One downside how it would work giving scholarships to walkons and how that would count against the number. It may not work, but it does seem like some improvement could be made.

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4 months ago

Clearwall

TBH, we need to start moving some of these LB recruits or stop recruiting so many. I know we need as many great players and options as possible, but there seem to be just way way too many at that particular position.

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4 months ago

Scarponi

So my question is: Is he guaranteed a scholarship for 2020 if he doesn’t get one for 2019?

JD Bertrand signed a NLI on December 19th, by the way, as did fellow PWO’s Harrison Leonard and Conor Ratigan. Scholarship or no, the school isn’t allowed to officially talk about them unless they’ve signed NLIs, and all three were included in the early signing period press release.

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4 months ago

juicebox

I don’t know what was said, but I err on the side of sliminess for the entirety of CFB. I would like to think ND is above that stuff in most areas, but it’s hard to believe a kid from Hawaii would knowingly grayshirt at ND rather than take a scholarship to USC. My guess is they told him it was a possibility, which obviously an 18 year old wouldn’t ever think would happen to him.

Does anyone know how often grayshirts end up actually playing at their original schools?

On the “hard to believe” point… All I’ll say is this: Every paysite mod has said that Liufau knew the deal from the beginning of his recruitment, and while I can’t share a ton of details, we do have a very reliable source who confirmed that for us behind the scenes and said this only blew up because the SC reporter who “broke” the story was off his rocker. So unless everyone who gets paid to do this, plus one source who gave us an honest, off-the record assessment, is lying to protect the coaching staff, yeah, Marist knew the situation.

USC offered him on Nov. 3rd, by the way, and he committed to Notre Dame on Nov. 14th. So, again, unless everybody involved here is blowing smoke, he knew the situation when he held a committable offer from SC, a couple of weeks before he committed to Notre Dame and seven weeks before he signed.

Informed consent makes this a non-issue to me.

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4 months ago

kiwifan

That sums it up nicely.

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4 months ago

tlndma

Totally fair, if you ask me. The kid must like what he sees at ND.

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4 months ago

juicebox

That is convincing. I am officially OK with this specific situation. If an SC reporter broke the story, that is all I really needed to know.

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4 months ago

Concrete Charlie

May have been covered in someone’s comment that I didn’t see…if so, apologies.

IMO, the NLI restrictions should go both ways. If you are going to tie the recruit to the school until June, you should also tie the school to a scholarship for anyone they let sign. Why should the player bear all the risk in this situation?

The player doesn’t have to sign a NLI on either signing date. I’m not clear on why any PWOs or greyshirts would, honestly; the benefit to a scholarship recruit is obvious, as it locks the school into the scholarship, but for the other guys I don’t get it. In Bertrand and Liufau’s cases, where they might pick up a scholarship if it’s available, I guess it makes sense. For guys like Ratigan and Leonard, I dunno. Pageantry? Excitement?

Technically a school could release even a scholarship recruit from his NLI when the start of the season rolls around, but barring exceptional circumstances I can’t see anyone actually doing that, even Alabama. They’d lose all credibility on the recruiting trail.

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4 months ago

Concrete Charlie

I am fine with the current situation if the kid knew what was going on. I am just a bit miffed that the recruits still have more downside than the schools. My view is: do not allow a school to lock in a kid with an NLI unless they are actually promising a scholarship for that year. The NCAA has all kinds of arcane rules that are designed to protect high school athletes, yet they are willing to let these kids dangle? It’s just not fair.

It may be a football and basketball-centric issue. Many other sports have no scholies or fractional scholies. Maybe it’s a case of rules meant to protect field hockey or cross country athletes having an unintentionally opposite effect on football athletes.

If Liufau is really fine with this and is so committed to ND that he’s decided he’s going to do this no matter what – and he’s said so – then I’m like 10% fine with it, and God be with the kid.

I don’t like ND getting into this territory, though. The chance of any one kid not highly regarded enough to command a scholarship on sight being the difference in a title run isn’t remotely good enough to justify this sort of practice. It’s almost enough to make me hope that the 4* guys we’re after don’t choose ND just to make sure Liufau has a spot and we don’t have to play this game.

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4 months ago

tlndma

While we debate this, NCAA hockey coaches make kids go play elsewhere (Prep school, Juniors) for one, two, even three seasons after H.S. and think nothing of it. Jeff Jackson has a roster full of players (not all) that delayed their freshman seasons.

1) The culture of hockey incentives bringing in older recruits. When I tried to walk-on at SLU all of the freshmen were either 20 or 21 years old. Those kids weren’t told to play junior hockey they just weren’t recruited or signed until the prior year when they were that old.

2) I don’t think Jackson is telling kids to go play elsewhere like it would be in this football example. Instead, kids are verbally committing to Notre Dame (sometimes pretty young) and then play a couple years of junior hockey before coming to Notre Dame.

3) If Jackson was having a kid sign in November 2018 and told him to play in the USHL until the 2021-22 season (I don’t think they do this) the NLI is void in 2019 anyway so it’s kind of pointless. Kids in this situation are verbally committing and not signing. As verbals, they can be recruited by hundreds of other hockey teams across the world before going to college.

4) Even if Jackson was signing kids in a cycle and greyshirting, hockey players have enormously more power and options than football players. A kid could sign to Notre Dame in November and leave to play major junior hockey a day later. If they’re old enough, they could play pro hockey somewhere. Said player’s options would be limited for a year in college hockey but there’s far more competition to play elsewhere–even play somewhere better, more prestigious, and make money.

Lifufau doesn’t have those options. He’s stuck until June with no options whatsoever and if he’s ultimately going to greyshirt his options are to scurry to another college during the summer which is highly likely to be a far worse football/academic situation than Notre Dame or spend a year at a prep school with sub-par competition, training facilities, and competition.

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4 months ago

tlndma

The kids verbally commit with the understanding that they have to go play Jrs. for one or two years. The scholarship is not given if they won’t. The options you sight (Major Jr. -pros(ha)) void their chance to play in college and get a degree.
I’m sure right now you could find a list of kids committed to ND Hockey and other schools, that deferred their enrollment for a year or two because the coaches wanted them to go play in the USHL for a year or two. These kids have no options with regard to their scholarships, Defer enrollment or we don’t offer the scholarship. Only the truly elite players can avoid this. An Elite 18 yr old can enroll or might even decide that Major Jr. is his quickest way to the pros. Your average college prospect isn’t extended these options.
I just don’t see much difference in the hockey and football situations and I think it is much more pervasive in hockey. I guess you could call it “the culture” if you’re trying to cloud the issue.

“The kids verbally commit with the understanding that they have to go play Jrs. for one or two years. The scholarship is not given if they won’t.” This isn’t grayshirting so the comparison is already strained to begin with. If you’re 16/17 and you commit, you’re coming in 3 years and signing in 2 years. If you’re 17/18 and you commit you’re coming in 2 years and signing in 1 year. This is how it usually works for most ND hockey players. It’d be like if Notre Dame Football’s class with Drew Pyne committed knowing they weren’t enrolling until Fall 2022 and all of their friends and teammates did the same thing. Essentially, the recruiting calendar is shifted a year or two in hockey. “The options you sight (Major Jr. -pros(ha)) void their chance to play in college and get a degree.” The amount of options in comparison to football is absurd. Most ND recruits play in the USHL, a feeder league for Division I hockey. They can play in the OJHL which feeds more to the eastern college programs. They can play in the BCHL out west where ND will bring in kids sometimes. Prep school is an option. Hockey players are not tied down, and yes, if they are good enough major junior and pro options are available at 18, as well. They can do all of this–while committed to Notre Dame–while playing in a high profile league and keeping all of their options open. In fact, the options in hockey help prevent college programs from recruiting shenanigans and actually grayshirting like in football. “I’m sure right now you could find a list of kids committed to ND Hockey and other schools, that deferred their enrollment for a year or two because the coaches wanted them to go play in the USHL for a year or two. These kids have no options with regard to their scholarships, Defer enrollment or we don’t offer the scholarship.” Can you cite one example of Coach Jackson getting a kid to sign in November 2017 or April 2018 with the understanding he can enroll in August 2018 if there’s room but if not play junior hockey for a season? The hockey players have plenty of options! They are committing and not signing and can decommit for another college or any other of numerous non-college hockey options. Committing to enroll in 3 years is not a grayshirt. “Only the truly elite players can avoid this. An Elite 18 yr old can enroll or might even decide that Major Jr. is his quickest way to the pros. Your average college prospect isn’t extended these options.” The elite of elite hockey players have more options than non-elite hockey players, that’s true. If you want to make the case that the rare birds who go to ND hockey right at 18 instead of 19 or 20 is basically greyshirting that’s one thing. In my example above If Drew Pyne got to enroll in 2020 while all… Read more »

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3 months ago

tlndma

Your calling back ebony and ebony black….you cite options for hockey that aren’t options…Why should a kid HAVE to delay his education because College coaches have decided that they don’t want to deal with kids 17-19 that are away from home for the 1st time? Yes that’s the reason there haven’t been restrictions put on these delaying tactics.(fact).Do you think a H.S. senior, with good grades, really wants to go to Prep school or the USHL instead of starting college right away?.. If there were a cap on freshman ages, which coaches don’t want because it makes their job/Lives easier, you might have had a better chance at walking on at SLU.
Liufau has an understanding with ND just as hockey players nation wide have understandings with their schools.
BTW, How do you know Liufau will attend a “sub-par” prep school?

“Why should a kid HAVE to delay his education because College coaches have decided that they don’t want to deal with kids 17-19 that are away from home for the 1st time?”

They shouldn’t in an ideal world. This also isn’t grayshirting!

“Do you think a H.S. senior, with good grades, really wants to go to Prep school or the USHL instead of starting college right away?”

In my experience, kids will do almost anything to play D-1 hockey and I’ve never heard of anyone signing and then being told to continue junior hockey elsewhere.

I repeated my sophomore year when I went to prep school. No one told me to. No one demanded it. It was just accepted as a way to stay competitive with colleges who were scooping up Canadians after they played a couple years of junior hockey out of high school, get acclimated to tougher academics, and also a way to get bigger and stronger to increase my ceiling at the next level.

Are you telling me what I experienced is the same as Liufau being grayshirted based solely on the fact that I went to college at 19 instead of 18? I had many options to choose from at 18/19 years old that aren’t being afforded to Liufau. You’re poo pooing the options aspect because it’s crucial to the differences in the sports.

“If there were a cap on freshman ages, which coaches don’t want because it makes their job/Lives easier, you might have had a better chance at walking on at SLU.”

I agree, it sucks. But it’s not grayshirting. The same thing would be happening in football if there were competitive leagues for 16 to 20 year olds like hockey. And no one would call it grayshirting because that’s not what it is.

“How do you know Liufau will attend a “sub-par” prep school?”

Are you contending that any prep school football league in the country is comparable to a league like the USHL? Hockey players are going from the prep level to the USHL which is a small step down from the college game. Marist will be going from potentially college to a situation far, far worse at the prep level. Again, people want to ignore this aspect of a grayshirt situation and I know why.

Bottom line, I agree it would be nice if hockey didn’t have this culture. But hockey players have so many more options and avenues to pursue. You started out justifying this in hockey, then criticizing it. So, why aren’t you critical of Liufau’s grayshirt then? That doesn’t add up to me.

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3 months ago

tlndma

So they don’t call it grey shirting ? A rose by another name… It still is a system based on helping the coaches not the student athletes. It is a very comparable way to delay a students entrance to school. It just much more pervasive in hockey, which seems to make it OK by you. The USHL is a great option for a kid? Only because of how the “system” has evolved. In reality most kids are delaying their educations now,because they want to play hockey, not because they want to play in juniors. College coaches have set up a system that helps them, not the student athlete and they table any attempt to change it.
Marist’s situation, in which the kid seems to truly want to go to ND, I find much less flagrant. He had other college options(USC) but chose ND despite the possible delay. He must really want to attend ND.

No, because it’s not grayshirting. I am struggling on how to convey this any clearer.

“It still is a system based on helping the coaches not the student athletes.”

Lots of systems in college sports help the coaches and not the students. Some systems are worse than others.

“It is a very comparable way to delay a students entrance to school. It just much more pervasive in hockey, which seems to make it OK by you.”

Until you can differentiate between a football grayshirt this is getting pointless. My linemate in prep school took a post-grad year, then Apple Corps, then USHL, then to Air Force. Many kids don’t get D-1 offers at 16 or 17 but keep playing. This isn’t grayshirting because he entered college at 20.

“The USHL is a great option for a kid?”

YES! College scouts crawling all over the place and great exposure. I would’ve killed to have been drafted by a USHL team because it makes D-1 hockey and a scholarship a lot more likely.

“In reality most kids are delaying their educations now,because they want to play hockey, not because they want to play in juniors.”

If hockey players have to keep playing and moving up the ladder to play D-1 hockey that’s far more acceptable than a football grayshirt with minimal options. Whether that education begins at 18, 19, or 20 in hockey does not equal a grayshirt.

“Marist’s situation, in which the kid seems to truly want to go to ND, I find much less flagrant. He had other college options(USC) but chose ND despite the possible delay. He must really want to attend ND.”

This is where you lose me with the hockey comparison.

Presumably current freshmen Nate Clurman truly wanted to go to Notre Dame, too. He gave a verbal to the Irish in March 2016 while at Culver Academy. Then played 2 years in the USHL and came to ND this past summer.

Liufau was offered a scholarship 6 weeks before signing and told there may not be space for 2019. If there’s no space, he can go play prep school somewhere where he’ll be the only D-1 football player on the team. People are okay with this because he really wants to come to ND and make his dream come true. Even if I don’t agree with that fully, in no way is the hockey set up worse. The hockey set up is a million times better.

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3 months ago

tlndma

So the Cluman kid’s situation is OK but, Liufau’s isn’t ? That’s because that’s how the system in hockey works? Then the system is lousy and out of whack.

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3 months ago

Scarponi

Firstly, I’ve found the hockey comparison debate interesting, so for that, thanks to both.

Secondly, to Eric, I’m trying to iron out some understanding of what your stance is (overall). At points it seems like you keep coming back to the “options” argument. But I suspect this can’t be the main reason you think why gray shirting is unethical, because removing options is clearly not per se unethical. Does it have more to do with the one way commitment (player is committed, while school/team is not)? Or…?

Also, are you saying that hockey scenario is ethical, and football gray shirting is not? Or that both are unethical, but that at least the hockey situation serves the student athlete in a better way?

The hockey scenario is like a 2/10 for me on the ethics scale, Liufau’s is like a 5/10, and the worst last minute grayshirts are obviously a 9/10.

I do think the options are really important. Honestly, Liufau shouldn’t have signed because it made it worse for himself in a sport where colleges have all the power (there are no other leagues offering competitiveness, especially without using eligibility) something that isn’t as prevalent in hockey.

Now, he’s still in limbo. Is he going to make it ND this year? Can he sneak other school visits in during the summer and feel comfortable enrolling somewhere else? How much emphasis is he putting on visiting and picking a prep school if that’s his route?

So his options are limited and pretty crappy right now. Add on top of that the hurried nature of his recruitment and I think that matters to feeling blah about things. If he delays his enrollment he’s going to be wasting a year of football at a prep school. Imagine if he gets hurt? Hockey players get to improve playing in the USHL. Liufau would be twiddling his thumbs at a prep school.

Timing (late offer when the class is full), options (start your eligibility clock in college or take a huge step down to prep school), and uncertainty (when exactly is he enrolling at ND?) all create some unethical things to me. Not something super terrible, but even if this is what he wants to do I’m pointing out that a lot of things can hamper him in a way that wouldn’t happen if he decided not to grayshirt.

All 3 of those things are not present for hockey players which leaves the only comparison being enrolling at an older age.

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3 months ago

tlndma

So, he won’t improve at a Prep school but, a hockey player will improve in the U ? He’s not going to get bigger and stronger ? The hockey player can’t get hurt? Is there a course in thumb twiddling at most Prep schools ? Liufau might be delayed a year. The ND player you cite is being delayed two years. You keep citing the U and Jrs. as some great option. I can tell you from experience that many players and parents are not thrilled when presented that option. It is how the system works but, that doesn’t make two years in Omaha enticing.
You keep saying he didn’t have options. They are limited now that he’s signed but, he had plenty. He chose his road and though it may be a bit foggy he knew that when he signed.

Should we bring up all the NHL alumni who played in the USHL? Then, you can offer up all the success stories in football from grayshirting?

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3 months ago

tlndma

Another silly argument. Those players wouldn’t be in the NHL if college hockey were set up to take kids right after H.S. graduation? Instead even D3 players are being sent to the new junior leagues. If the USHL isn’t “foggy” why are those scouts there? Don’t those kids already know their plan? Do all USHL kids get D1 offers? No, of course not. Even college coaches will tell you “that the system sucks for the kids. That it’s too bad that so many of these kids have to put off their educations if they want to play college hockey but, that’s how it is and it’s easier for the coaches. We don’t want to change it.” Please note the quotation marks.
How you can even an argue that a system that requires so many to delay their educations for one or two years to play at even the lowest college level, is somehow not even comparable to ND asking one kid to “maybe” delay his start, is a little boggling.
I have a couple dozen D1 buddies and even more that played D2&3. To a man they’re glad they’re not going through the system as it is now.

I’ve already commented multiple times that the hockey system isn’t perfect. All you’re doing is ignoring anything that doesn’t have to do with deferring an education. That’s why you’ve blurred the lines of a grayshirt.

“If the USHL isn’t “foggy” why are those scouts there?”

Because many of the players haven’t signed a NLI and can still be recruited. O-P-T-I-O-N-S!!!!

Let’s take a look at the USHL Green Bay roster:

19 year old, Lake Superior commit
18 year old, North Dakota
17 year old, Quinnipiac
18 year old, Northeastern
20 year old, no commitment
19 year old, no commitment
19 year old, RPI commit
20 year old, Mercyhurst
18 year old, Denver
18 year old, no commitment
19 year old, no commitment
18 years old, North Dakota
18 years old, Lake Superior
20 years old, no commitment
17 years old, no commitment
17 years old, Minnesota-Duluth
17 years old, Michigan
19 years old, Nebraska-Omaha
18 years old, Northern Michigan
19 years old, Quinnipiac
18 years old, Western Michigan
18 years old, Michigan
20 years old, no commitment
18 years old, no commitment

Two-thirds of the roster committed to play Division 1 hockey. A couple of the other kids who aren’t committed could also play D-1, too.

Let’s juxtapose that with Liufau’s situation.

From his Punahou high school team there are 8 rated recruits in his class alone. 5 going to Power 5 schools, 1 to Princeton, and 1 to Navy. 1 isn’t committed yet.

Now, let’s say Liufau goes to Culver Academy for a year of prep school so he’s close to campus. In the 2019 class (with a much deeper ranking than 2020 where he’d eventually reclassify) none of the 60 rated recruits in Indiana are from Culver.

Liufau would be taking a significant step down in competition, largely against younger kids. Random hockey player going from prep school to USHL is taking a significant step up against many older players.

This should absolutely matter if we care about a player’s future! He’s going to play with scrubs and is essentially wasting a year of football development. Allegiances aside, I wouldn’t recommend anyone grayshirt in football which is why it so rarely happens.

If all things were equal, waiting 2 years instead of 1 to enroll is worse. In a vacuum, you’re correct and I’ve even said the hockey system isn’t great.

But things aren’t equal and we’re not looking at things in a vacuum of 2 is worse than 1 and I don’t believe you’ve acknowledge this once.

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3 months ago

tlndma

You’re correct two is worse than one. And a system that pretty much demands kids down to the D3 level delay their educations, is worse too. I really haven’t blurred anything. You’ve gone to great efforts to do so. I’ve simply pointed out what’s going on in college hockey these days.
My original point was that while we’re commenting on one kid “delaying” his education another NCAA sport whole structure is now built around delaying the education of most of athletes in that sport. That’s pretty clear I think.

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3 months ago

Scarponi

That makes sense. I think your stance is reasonable, even though I wouldn’t use the word “unethical” for all those things.

I think the options thing makes it a *worse* situation for him, but not necessarily an *unethical* one.

If I’m a high school student wanting to get a masters in X that has 2 possible college choices. One is reknowned for their academics and has a great MA program. Going as an undergrad would really set me up with a great opportunity to get into the MA or any other school’s MA. The other college is quite poor academically and has very few grads ever go on to further education. If I decide to attend the second college because the girl I really like is going there: I’ve probably made a bad (career) decision, but not an unethical one. And I don’t think it’s unethical for the college to accept my choice in that situation either. My options have been greatly reduced, I’m in a worse situation, but unless I have chosen to put myself their for an unethical reason (I choose college #2 in order to murder someone), or have been forced into it against my will, I don’t see reduced options as unethical.

I do think the timing/uncertainty/(and up-front honesty) are certainly things that merit more consideration.