When I wrote my last article on MGTOW, I was glad to see that many people saw the movement for what it was, including many former members who had decided to leave the group after realizing that it was poisonous to their drive for life. And I am encouraged to believe that there are many more men affiliated with MGTOW who will also realize that there is an alternative path once they’re shown the way.

Man doesn’t thrive with complacency that is indirectly (perhaps directly) promoted by MGTOW, he demands more from life. Once a man believes that he can improve his station in life instead of being stuck in it, I believe that he will get moving. If you are a MGTOW who is feeling disillusioned and dissatisfied with the group, here is a guide to get you started to a new life. As for any man who is proud to call himself a MGTOW, spare yourself the triggering and stop reading here; this is not meant for you. That is, unless you enjoy outrage reading like the feminists.

1. Recognize MGTOW for what it is

First, you must understand why MGTOW exists and what bring these men together. MGTOW may have started with the right intent of defying the gynocentric system that exploits men, but it has quickly turned into a congregation of young men who come together to validate each other’s bitterness and frustration. Instead of doing anything to improve their lives, the majority of MGTOW feel the need to attack anyone who suggests self-improvement because it reminds them of their own lack of effort (just note how often they come to this site to spew their hatred instead of staying in their own sphere).

And for all the cries about society “shaming” them, the members of the MGTOW are the most vitriolic group today (along with the feminists) that constantly shames men for sharing tips on improving their lives. I can somewhat accept bitchy behavior from feminists as they’re women, but to watch these “men” throw a hissy fit over articles on attracting women or becoming a better man (none of which they were forced to read) is both hilarious and cringeworthy at the same time.

Ask yourself: what compels a man who has supposedly “gone his own way” to come to a site they claim to hate, read an article on attracting women which they clearly don’t care for, then leave a comment to “shame” and attack other men? Simple: jealously and insecurity.

MGTOW also claim that their group isn’t about rejecting sex altogether, but as soon as another man makes even the slightest effort to have a relationship with a woman, they go apeshit about how he is a “slave to pussy” or a “PUA loser” (for some reason, they think anyone who has sex with a woman is automatically a “PUA.” I’m sure only a very small number of writers and readers of ROK are actual PUA’s).

Many of these men have a twisted worldview where all relationship between men and women are either slavery through marriage or a charade by men dressed like clowns who are desperate for sex. Some even develop more bizarre conspiracy theories where every word or action of another male group is an effort to force marriage or sell books on pick-up. Their mind is so warped that simply having a different perspective on man and society gets interpreted as advocating hatred or violence against the entire male population “just to get laid.”

To escape this men-rejecting-women-not-being-rejected-by-them club, you must recognize that the MGTOW inseminates damaging ideas about life and the world and poisons the soul with negativity. Just as feminism grew beyond from a movement for equality, MGTOW has grown beyond its original purpose.

There are couple of MGTOW contributers whose videos I’ve actually enjoyed, but the majority of their followers are men who are stuck and lost. Bitterness and even anger is normal for those who take the red pill, but perpetually staying in that stage is unnatural. If validation and venting out anger is all that you seek, sure, knock yourself out. However, if you want more from life, you need to get out of the bubble and see the world with different eyes.

2. Drop the loser mentality

MGTOW Logic 101: “Stop shaming men!” … “PUA pussy worshiper!”

All things considered, MGTOW, ROK, and other men’s groups have more things in common than the differences. We all recognize the disease that is feminism and we are all faced with the new realities that modern society has to offer for men. The main difference really comes down to mentality.

Most members of MGTOW suffer from a fixed mentality where they don’t see the possibility of things getting better for themselves. Instead of making things work despite the odds, these men want to disengage and be complacent. That is fine if you want to settle, but for those who want more from life, you must choose to fight. To change, you must first fix your mentality so that you believe in your ability to grow and demand more from yourself.

Another thing would be to grow a thicker skin and not take general criticism of MGTOW personally. I thought MGTOW wasn’t even a group or a movement? Why would you feel slighted if you’ve gone your own way and the criticism doesn’t even apply to you? I suspect that many MGTOW members love to insult other men who they perceive as being better than they are because their fixed mindset doesn’t allow for self-growth. Instead, they must bring others down to their own level with their toxic negativity just to feel better about themselves. Don’t be like that.

3. Know that withdrawal and giving up isn’t the option

If this is how they actually think, I’m not surprised they see MGTOW as a safe haven. These individuals are no different from the feminist fat-acceptance movement.

The best thing you can do for yourself is to strive for tangible results rather than moping about how bad the system is. We already all know what a raw deal marriage can be in the West, there’s no point rehashing that fact over and over again once you are already aware of it. What matters is what you’re willing to do in response.

You can either try to find a woman who is a wife material (and go abroad if you have to) or reject marriage and all other forms of relationship with women. But constantly reminding yourself and advertising to everyone else that you’re a MGTOW—to a point of criticizing those who have successful relationship with women—is petty and unproductive.

4. Take steps towards changing your life

If you’re a MGTOW who is already keeping himself busy with various activities, good, keep it up. But if you’re the kind to trawl the internet for hours at a time, looking for things that validate your beliefs while attacking anything that challenges them, you should get off your computer and do something else. You must escape from your complacency. Try new things, do things you are avoiding, learn something new, travel and meet women who are not poisoned by feminism. Do something beyond the same old things that burn your time. Just don’t get trapped in your own mental prison.

To conclude, I must stress again that I know there are MGTOW with the right idea keeping themselves productive for their own sake. I also couldn’t care less for those who pride themselves in accomplishing nothing and feeling proud just for saying they’re “going his own way.” But those who’ve only been exposed to MGTOW without knowing that there are other available options out there should be aware of them so that they can make their choice.

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MGTOW movement is an natural response to an unatural and hostile gynocentric society that we live in. It is an acknowledgement that the odds for creating meaningful relationships with women are the lowest possible right now, so the only “solution” is to opt-out before you lose everything in an effort to “work things out”. Women will never “work things out” they do not care about anything but themselves and live only for now not later. That is their nature, we all now that by now. So, Men cannot do anything either have meaningless relationships that go nowhere or withdraw completely from the dating scene before they get hurt (which makes sense in this state of affairs)

In my opinion, MGTOW is not a healthy solution because the society as a whole cannot sustain it self in the long run if many men embrace this movement. But we can see that we already have a huge problem with birth rates in all western societies (partly because women are delaying marriage in order to ride the cock carousel) and that is why we have immigration (people somehow have to be replaced in order for the machine to keep going). But neither being a PUA or “whatwomenwhat” with game is a viable solution, it will only work for the short term gratification and not for all of men. If someone really wants a decent (not a whore) woman to build a family together, the odds for him are extremely against him right now.

As i see it, only strict ethics and moral codes can bring back the natural complimentary roles of men and women and can restore the balance of sex relationships. But this cannot happen until a generation of men and women can be educated to act the right way (learn to pursue meaningful relationships with a goal of building families and not meaningless sex as it is right now) and reject liberalism as something amoral and bad. Of course our generation is a lost cause, because it has been educated in thinking that hoop up culture and adultery aka free love is something completely normal (which is not in any way). Lets hope the future ones (if there are any) would find the natural way at last.

Their goal as i see it is the “kallergi plan” which has been partly successful in united states of america. Ebracing diversity (only to caucasian societies) to actually destroy diversity in the long run.

“…women do not care about anything but themselves and live for the now rather than later”

“…so men cannot do anything except have meaningless relationships that go nowhere or withdraw completely before they get hurt”

You have identified the main thing that convinced me to go MGTOW that I have not seen addressed here in the comments. Once I was convinced and had plenty of evidence from the past 15 years of dealing with women to back up what the MGTOW guys were telling me (that on the fundamental level, women do not love men in the way we want to be loved and ultimately don’t care about the man himself, but only what he can do for her) that was enough for me to stop trying with them. Because getting the women was never really the problem if I tried diligently enough. The real issue was they never really listened to, asked thoughtful questions about, or cared about me the person (even 3 different women who were “sooo in love” enough to marry me did not do these things), and therefore I saw it was impossible for real “love” to take place, so at that point, why should I even bother? I never married any of them, by the way. I learned the truth just in time to avoid the last one, which would have been a total disaster in hindsight. Thanks to MGTOW, I dodged some serious bullets.

“Man doesn’t thrive with complacency that is indirectly (perhaps directly) promoted by MGTOW, he demands more from life. ”

Indeed it is true that there is no reason for an honest man to get out of bed today, but get out of bed he must and give some true meaning to his life. And one of the biggest flaws about mgtow is that it does not take into account that most men still need to get laid. A man who still has a libido can’t simply write off the need to dump his load. And jerking off to porn or real dolls could not possibly be a sufficiant substitute – dunno for sure as I have never done these activities and it sure as hell does not appeal to me.

Most women are soo horrible at sex that with now unlimited FREE material on the internet it is preferable/more convenient for young guys to safely fap to their favorite porn stars who are Olympic champs at sport f-ing.

It’s a mystery why boys would use aps like Tinder with turd wave feminism, false rape accusations and GRIDS or how $trip club$ and e$cort service$ are still in business with the shitty economic situation baby boomer A-holes left gen X/Y ers and millenials.

Pussy is the worst and fastest depreciating investment, even if you put the minimum amount of effort into getting it and didn’t even spend a dime. It’s worse than a new car that you can never sell for the same price you paid for it.

At least with a rusty old car you get a few bucks from the scrap yard but with a bitchy, ugly old wife and snot nosed kids it costs money to get rid of them.

This was always the case and always will be, even in the traditional, idealized patriarchal old days as well as today in the turd world where sex tourists go clunge shopping.

Want to meet a nice girl?
Go to Church. Yep that’s right, get to know her and her family. Judge her mom. That’s what you’ll get.
Not bars or out on the town flnkies. This really isn’t that hard.
Then work, make money, babies and prosper. Kick ass along the way and learn to troll the crap out of sjw and Marxists

“I can’t have sex with your personality and I can’t put my penis in your college degree and I can’t shove my fist in your child hood dreams so why are you sharing all this information with me” is pretty much the best song lyric ever.

I actually have no real disagreement with the theory that makes feminism possible. The best way to point to its theoretical origin would be Nietzsche.

In his essay from On Truth and Lies in a Nonmoral Sense (1873) the N man writes something that had ahuge impact on the world.

He writes:

“What then is truth? A movable host of metaphors, metonymies, and anthropomorphisms: in short, a sum of human relations which have been poetically and rhetorically intensified, transferred, and embellished, and which, after long usage, seem to a people to be fixed, canonical, and binding. Truths are illusions which we have forgotten are illusions — they are metaphors that have become worn out and have been drained of sensuous force, coins which have lost their embossing and are now considered as metal and no longer as coins.” “
That truth is merely a coin which can lose it’s embossing and will afterwards be considered just metal (and which, indeed, can be reembossed to a new value) is immensely important for nihilism as well as feminism. You see, once the weight and force of truth is drained from the world what we have left is mere social construct. This is where the feminists start down the path to destroying gender.
My big issue with feminists isn’t that they see gender (and indeed all truth) as mere social construct, I agree with them on that. My problem is what they do with this knowledge.
I mean, I know how to bash my nuts with a hammer, it doesn’t mean I will, should or desire to do it.
So what do we find when gender is deconstructed. Feminists, like little children, start playing with this new knowledge like a toy and basically rip apart the very thing that allowed western civilization to grow.
That isn’t the only possible response. For instance, in my case, realizing that gender is a social construct, I react by doubling down on hypermasculinity.

By that quote, it almost seems to me like Nihilism is basically enlightenment minus the divine.

I do not share your final conclusion, though. I put little value in Western civilization. A lot of it is just madness.

But maybe what you are trying to say – and what would be consistent with my observations – is that feminism basically recognizes that they are social constructs, only to remold them so that they suit their own needs, using them as a power instrument and turning them around instead of letting these illusions go altogether.

I always thought of cynics as disappointed romanticists. They have realized that everything is a lie, and yet, instead of being angry at the lie and shedding it, they are angry that reality is not like the lie.

I like your “enlightenment minus the divine” Well said there. I also agree with you about cynics. The knowledge is fine, it is always about what you do with it. I find my own brand of nihilism to be very uplifting and positive. In the wake of finding out that reality itself isn’t real the appropriate response is, I believe, the after breaking out of Shawshank and lifting face to the rain thing.

Here’s the much less messed up definition of truth from Harry Stotle : “To say of what is that it is not, or of what is not that it is, is
false, while to say of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is
not, is true.”
Voilà. No need for giant mustaches !

I have only had a mustache twice. THe first was my failed attempt at a Nietzsche stace. The other was a few years ago when I heard about “movember” which is some stupid thing where, to raise awareness for prostate cancer, men are growing their mustache in November. Loads of celebrities and shit.
So I grew out a hitler stache and wore it for a day.

I was taking the Mrs out for a date night last night. While driving, I passed a grungy, obese young woman walking into the Taco Bell parking lot with her nose buried in her phone. I had a good chuckle upon the realization of what she was doing. Apparently Pikachu had the late night munchies.

The women in church aren’t any different than the women outside church. If you do religion to “meet a nice girl’ you’re going to get disappointed. There are reasons to be religious but that’s not one of them.

Wrong. About 8% of women are virgins and the more religious a woman is meaning she goes church often increases these chances. You will know a true Christian woman she will submit to you if she trusts you. But if you’re a PUA her father will probably kick your ass out.

Dave Ramsey, author of Total Money Makeover and Financial Peace et al, did studies on divorce. He found that couples on the same page as far as religion and money, had only a 10% divorce rate after 15 years. Compare that to 55% nationwide.

Yep
Go to An Orthodox or Traditional Catholic Church and there are no single moms. Period. Unless the dad is dead. Divorce or pre marital sex is not practiced or accepted there. Divorces aren’t an option.

What in the hell freak church do you go to?
A Jim Jones Church or what?
Go to a Traditional Catholic or Orthodox Church. There’s no premarital sex or divorce there. If an anomaly there’s usually shunning and shaming

You read it right.
Old values are still taught and instilled.
IF there are a single mom, it’s a scandal here. Divorce doesn’t exist. I’m talking old school Latin Mass or Tradition Orthodox Church right here in America. I’ve been apart of both for over 25 years. Girls expect to wed and be mothers and wives. And a vast majority are virgins on wedding night. Sux for dating but it is what it is

It’s like being single. At first it is painful. Then you realize the gift of space. But like all states either you recognize as a human you weren’t meant to stay there and, when the time comes, you improve what needs improving, or you quietly acknowledge you give up and will die there. The biggest conflict is unless you actually bite the bullet willingly and off yourself, you will always have a gnawing notion to move away from the state. This is natural. This is nature telling you to enjoy what time you have in existence and stop being a bitch.

Embrace the gnaw. Take game and convert yourself into a whole man. Fuck women who are in your field of interests. Read books that engage and grow your mind. If business is a weakness, meet superior people who you can learn from. And yes, people means Men and Women.

Part of MGTOW, and the manosphere as a whole, is we spew far too much hatred in public and live in enjoyable ways in private, spreading the bitching disease and publicly, this becomes our face. Stormfront comes because we spread our bitching on race and Jews. MGTOW comes because we spread our bitch on women. All sides may come with problems for some of us, but these are not problems for all of us.

I will not suggest how a man can or should live. However there is a thing called joy that is just a step beyond comeuppance and righteous indignation that will improve and engage your life tenfold. And our time is universally limited to seeing what joy is. Embrace your gnaw and release the bitch. Save her for feminists and the LGBTQ and gender fluid crowd.

I’m really curious what moving beyond mgtow means can anyone actually explain it? Does it mean throwing away all mgtow principles? Because if it doesn’t then it’s still mgtow… I don’t even know what people are saying here is the solution.. they’re addicted to pussy that’s all it sounds like.. it’s like someone telling you to take control of your alcoholism and you’re like NO I LIKE GETTING SMASHED ALL THE TIME! yeah no one said you have to give up drinking.. I really just don’t get the problem here with mgtow.. it’s about being a fully actualized man . If that means getting pussy for you then whatever.. the difference between mgtow and non mgtow is that a mgtow isn’t going to get taken advantage of by society.. so by distancing yourself from mgtow you are wanting to be raped by divorce court? I don’t get it..

“Like I said, I believe the MGTOW response to the fem-centric nature of modernity in Western Civilization is indeed rational, but it shouldn’t be confused with a solution, it is merely a symptom.

While I would agree that the nature of Western Civilization today is indeed extremely feminine, it doesn’t have to be this way. Civilization can be directed toward masculine purposes. I’m thinking about things along the lines of space travel, immortality, the nature of consciousness/reality, wisdom, and strength.

Civilizations rise and fall, but civilizations are a manifestation of the men who build them. As long as men of European descent live on, the heart and soul of Western Civilization lives on with them. This is why the invasion by the third world hordes into Europe and America has the potential to be so devastating.”

Most men shaming MGTOW give me the palpable sense that they need ass like they need air to breathe, and will suffer through pretty much anything for surprisingly low quality ass in most cases. Some of the women I see on men’s arms now… it’s laughable. He competed for *that*? That’s *winning*? LMAO. I stick to losing thanks. How these guys are even able to afford the FOOD for some of these women. Unreal.

Hm. I do not identify as an MGTOW, but I do share the opinion brought forward in the screenshot in point 3. But as it is often with words, they can be laid out in different ways. Being your true self can very well mean to lift and practice game. And it can mean not to.

Of course, it is arguable that when you are being your true self, you do not need to argue about it with anyone. But then, it seems a very typical affliction in the West to be constantly fighting over worldviews, out of a percieved need to convince others in order to validate your own existence. I don’t think that there is a great lot of people who do not suffer from this in a more or less strong manner. In fact, you could argue that anyone who spends time on the internet arguing with strangers has some kind of need for validation. While that may not be a sign of 100% rock solid confidence, I would cut “them” some slack.

Same word interpretation thing applies to self-improvement. Some may lift and game simply because it is an extension of who they truly are and who they want to be. Hence, it is less of a self-improvement, than a self-… enjoyment? But then, when somebody says “you must improve yourself” and then “to be better, you have to do XXX”, they are basically making assumptions about others based on themselves. For instance, I am a lot into spirituality stuff and meditation, but while mentioning it to those interested in a debate, I do not really care about pushing it on anyone, because everyone is living the life they want to be living anyway.

I think that a lot of times, it would help to not see the world in terms of ideologies that fight against each other, but to listen to someone and wonder: What are they really about? Why is this particular thing so important to them and do they really mean what I think they mean? What do they really need?

This goes for both “sides” of course. It is easy to assume that one’s own worldview is the solution to the other “side”s problems. But the truth is, I think, that different people are at different stages in their lives and what may not make sense to one person, may be just the right thing for someone else right now.

I used to imagine that the motivations behind a given person’s passion or desire for a certain idea or possession was a relatively straightforward motivation that could be explained in conventional psychological terms. Yet, with time and experience, I doubt this more, as you meet people with the strangest passions, say for vintage trucks of particular era or for collecting certain types of Lepidoptera (Moths and Butterflies) and someone else will have a passion for lifting weights.

The point is, we make a mistake when we always try to reduce these motivations to some form of psychological classification that’s always linked into ideas related to a person’s power, status or frustrated sex drive. In most cases, this is simply not true, people are often motivated or have a deep desire or passion for something because it gives them physical and/or mental enjoyment. It broadens their awareness and gives them a connection to something bigger or different from themselves. As I said, we err, quite considerably by reducing these important experiences to some type of basic narcissistic/sexual ego drive.

” But had you looked without having learned, would it still be true?” That’s very cryptic? But, if I’d never looked, I’d never had to opportunity to learn? However you can be perennially looking and learn nothing new and never look and have possible insights too. It depends on how you “apprehend” reality in the first place, but, you don’t need to be looking at it to gain knowledge from, or, about it.

For exampke. If you learn about stuff like “alpha” and “beta”, you start categorizing everyone you meet into one of the two. Thus validating the theory. You start “seeing” it.

But, had you not heard about the categorization into “alpha” and “beta”, would it still be true? If you had never heard of that catgorization, and looked at men, and somebody asked you to categorize them, is that exactly what you would come up with?

I can address this as somebody who pre-dates this entire movement by a long shot. I never used the terms alpha/beta/omega/sigma in the 1980’s and 1990’s, but I did consciously know and categorize men as “masculine/manly” and “pussy/wimp/loser”. I think all people categorize others, it’s part of how our mind functions, we need to attach concrete concepts to objects/people in order to put a handle on them for further processing. It’s kind of our way of making a mental version of an “.h” file (C reference there).

I guess. I subconsciously did that, too, to a certain extent, but I was too ashamed of it to make myself truly conscious of it.

But these days, when I look around, I really don’t see such a crass distinction. I mean, if you put a “real alpha” besides a total wimp, it isn’t hard to make a distinction. But in real life, there are all shades of grey in between.

“But, had you not heard about the categorization into “alpha” and “beta”, would it still be true” Nope, not really. These terms are both simplistic and narrow. For example, in my mind alpha is more akin to someone whom you respect and admire, not necessarily always like and I think there are many false alphas who “look the part” but are essentially narcissistic, dull, willing to be pussy slaves and really don’t warrant any respect from other guys.

At the everyday level, I don’t mostly categorize people that way. I’m a good judge of character and will give most people the benefit of the doubt, but, I’m more tunned into whether another person is a potential “problem” for me, and invariably people generally become bigger problems the less character they have. So, there’s a natural corollary to the alpha/beta scale here anyway, which would be true even if I never knew about this theory in the first place.

I never try to bring guys down, all I try to do is warn them of the dangers involved, if the man seems open minded about seeing the truth of his situation. My father was married and divorced 3 times; I have been married and divorced zero (0) times due to seeing and considering the choices he made in his life, and seeing and considering the choices of other men I’ve known, and also taking a close hard look at the women I encounter without the usual male rose colored glasses clouding my perceptions. If a man thinks he has found a “quality” woman, that’s his problem. I’m the kind of man who doesn’t believe that any woman is good enough for me to accept the risks involved. I just don’t need women that much. Some other men obviously do need women that much, and I pity them the way I pity the poor male black widow spider.

I gotta tell ya C.S., I had no idea MGTOW had degenerated to this degree. To be honest with you I thought they were just a small fringe derivative of the manosphere at large who more or less threw their hands up and were content playing video games and eating cheetos all day but I certainly didn’t think their numbers were substantial enough to have any sort of influence.

This explains certain comments I see on ROK from men that make me scratch my head and think “Why the fuck is this dude so critical of the advice that xyz contributor just wrote about?” Welp, I’ve got my answer.

As far as I’m concerned men who are extreme ‘MGTOWs’ and talk shit about men who actually like having sex with women, getting and staying fit, saving money, and improving their lives are the equivalent of men who have taken the red pill but are just stuck in the anger phase. They know the truth but they’re too lazy and pissed off to do anything about it.

The best thing to do is to treat them like they’re still blue pill…..that is, don’t attempt to reason with them and give them reasons why they should learn game, lift, and stack cash. Rather, let them come to the conclusion on their own. That’s the only way it’s going to stick. When they’re tired of jerking off to porn with cheeto dust on their fingers while keeping an eye on their other screen for an update on whatever time wasting game they’re into at the time, they’ll quit that shit and improve their lives.

But like most blue pill men these days, some of them never will and that’s fine with me. More pussy for the rest of us….

Simple and the best response for people who choose that life. If they don’t hear they will feel. By the by, when will the next Sharp article come out? I know that there might be a surplus of game articles by this point, but was curious since thankfully, Troy is back and writing articles again.

Hmm I”m going to disagree. You guys are contributing to the problem as much as some MGTOW. If you’re having casual sex then you’re contributing to the problem. Studies have shown the damage sex out of side of marriage can do. You guys are harming women not physically but emotionally.
Feminism isn’t really to blame because dudes like you and some MGTOW who continue to have sex feed fuel the fire. Be a man and take responsibility instead of blaming head games and using women pure for sexual pleasure.
Let me ask you this, what woman in her right mind would marry a guy like you who is a player? It’s same as men not wanting to marry a woman who is a slut.

One thing is for sure the stupidity of western people blame either women, feminism or other factors. You guys we face the truth. There is no red pill in the manopshere because people are too fuck’in weak to look within.
At least with some MGTOW they don’t have sex at all.

Women marry “players” all the time. You are fooling yourself if you believe there exists some righteous inclination within women to marry the “good” guy. Just ask Charles Manson, Anders Breivik or that kid who shot up the theater when batman was playing. His prison wall is COVERED with love letters from females who are enamored with him for the sole reason that he killed people.

In fact the entire post victorian model for “love” and marriage is a flimsy failure and wishful thinking for every weakling in this world. The divorce rates of the western world speak for itself.

Marrying for “love” is the impotent want of the faggot and the death cultist.

Game is applied charisma, and as such is useful for every person to study and master. Surely that aspect of the manosphere (and this blog, in particular) can be understood as a good thing.

The mentality toward sex you find across the manosphere is a logical reaction to the state of male-female relations which feminism and associated movements has created. With the current state of divorce law and the near-celebration of divorce among women, it is illogical to bind oneself to the legal contract which marriage entails. Furthermore, the nature of female hypergamy and preselection means that a man who gets laid more often is able to continue attracting women, while a man who does not has a greater difficulty.

You might be interested in the personal philosophy and history of Caleb Jones, at blackdragonblog.com. He was married, had kids, and lost half his possessions and income when his wife divorced him. Since, he has spent years engaged in an open long-term relationship, with one long-term partner and an ever-changing group of other conquests.

MGTOW isn’t about hating other man for picking up more girls than them. I’ve read both ROK & MGTOW, I think both sides has good articles in them since return of kings help man get laid and MGTOW is showing man that theirs more to life than having sex with bitches who are only good to get fucked.

I would tend to agree having read both aspects to some degree that the tendency for both ideals (MGTOW and PUA ideas) to attack and belittle one another stems from both sides cherry picking their information and utilizing it to smear the other.

Honestly learning from both sides is a good thing but certainly be wary of those guys who give faulty information who quite frankly are a vast majority of content producers and posters.

It’s the smarter guys of MGTOW and PUA derived strategies that men should be listening to since the world is too dynamic and changing to not adapt and evolve from all the best information given by men who take the time to alert the rest of us who lag behind for whatever reasons.

Remember in the Star Trek episode “Amok Time” when Spock told Stonn that sometimes having was not so pleasant as wanting, that it was not logical but it was often true? That’s what many MGTOW’s think of women. Having a woman like T’Pring is not as pleasant as wanting a woman like T’Pring.

Monks are not the most vocal or have great involvement in the current MGTOW movement . The monks are following original philosophy of the MGTOW by focus on themselves and staying offline. This is great misfortune for manosphere as the ‘Secret Kings’ have taken over the front of the MGTOW. To use Vox Day’s SMV terms, it now filled with Gamma. The gammas use their online personsa to prove themselves are superior by their online deeds and words. There are not plug into the matrix, they plug into their own warped world in isolated server in their basement.

The first lesson of Game, is focus on improving yourself and to paraphrase loleknee, getting your shit together. From there you can choose to purse girls, try to find the unicorn, or just live your life. For any man that frowns upon this path for men are worse than the white knights, and feminists.

Game. Scoring. Winning. Getting laid. If this is how one is starting off he’s no king and he’s no alpha. Alphas have women around because of how alphas look and how they live. They do what they want, never having been ever concerned that there would be lots of high SMV pussy lingering around to help him enjoy the fruits of his labor. The rest of us “regular guys” throw other regular guys under the bus just for a sniff of a pudgy single moms ax wound. THAT is what’s worse than the feminists.

I’ve always seen ‘monk mode’ as a more or less temporary stage that a man chooses to go into in order to focus on certain aspects of self-improvement or accomplishing other goals. There are similarities between the ‘monk mode’ focus and some of the original MGTOW concepts, but a least a certain segment of MGTOW has devolved into just an excuse to sit home and play video games.

If you want to ‘monk mode’ and focus on whatever interest or passion you have, go for it. If you decide that women are nothing but a distraction for you and your true goals, then that’s your game plan, and I got nothing but respect for you.

And if you want to MGTOW out and go stagnate in Xbox, Mountain Dew and anime porn, then you go do what you want to do.

Just don’t expect me to take you seriously, or listen to you when you Trigglypuff out about whatever it is that sets you off when other guys are kicking ass and forgetting names.

No, actually MGTOW is the antithesis of feminism. Feminism relies on controlling others because you lack control (aka agency) of yourself. MGTOW is relying on nobody BUT yourself. Feminism and MGTOW have a few things in common but are really nothing alike.

The problem with MGTOW now is that incels and other subgroups of the manosphere have all jumped on the MGTOW bandwagon. Incel does not exist in my mind. If you can afford $250 for a video game there is no reason to remain “involuntarily celibate”. I have all the agency I need – I just believe that common law or marriage is a fools errand. If I’m a neckbeard loser virgin, how was it I was able to marry a good looking woman and have two kids? Before then I was getting laid like tile – I even surprised myself. Society needs to grow up from it’s current state of “school yard” antics. Just because a guy is pissed off with women or marriage doesn’t mean he can’t get laid. Just because a guy’s marriage didn’t work out doesn’t mean he’s a loser. Society desperately wants everyone to believe this tripe though, because it’s essential so they can keep selling the marriage idea to young men. They rely exclusively on the male ego for this to work – oh, it won’t happen to me. That only happens to losers.

MGTOW to me isn’t a lack of agency. It’s application of it. Saying no is just as much agency as saying yes.

Omg all the mgtow hate and theories are so ridiculous here.. just a bunch of people validating their slavery.. mgtow is about freeing your mind and allowing yourself to see the truth of what’s happening around you. If after you realize the whole system is set up against men you choose to throw yourself onto the sacrificial alter of marriage then go ahead.. if you never realize the system is set up against men, then you never really looked outside your happy little boy box and you defeatistly accept your lot in life as a disposable male..

So what’s the disconnect? Mgtow is about being in control of yourself.. I honestly didn’t see that this site was called return if kings. So you pride yourself on being a king do you? But getting pussy is a requirement yes? So if you’re not getting pussy you don’t feel validated right? So you’re putting pussy on a pedestal above your self actualization.. look you can make a list and say that these things are the requirements to being a king or you can realize that being sovereign means being master of yourself with or without requirements.. maybe you’re just a fuckboy..

Uh bro.. all that shit is what mgtow is about. Instead of pursuing women maybe it’s challenging women instead of being obsessed with them and putting their twat above your own happiness.. if you pretend the pussy is more important than you than you’re a slave to the pussy..

Yeah I’ve been watching MGTOW in decline now for over a year.
There can never be a movement though. It’s not going your own way when it’s a movement.

And going your own way is never some “prescribed path” set up by any movement or whatever consensus that someone in a back room dreamed up somewhere.

MGTOW has one fatal flaw: the world does not give a shit. As Chatau Heartiste pointed out once in a well-written article “Sperm is cheap”. Meaning that a civilization that has had hordes of hapless loveless men die in wars and working to death never having reproduced, is not going to be bothered by hordes of neckbeards having heart attacks in front of their game consoles at age 28.
It never mattered before.

That’s why the marxists can be given credit for target selection: they went for a higher value target, the eggs, the women.

Good article CS. I have been doing something which I call MGTOW plus but with this new information I might reconsider that. Essentially I am MGTOW only with the inclusion of frequent, filthy and meaningless sex.

I do, however, advise all men to take breaks from sex and spend a few weeks as a MGTOW now and then as a kind of reset.

As a college student in an seminar talking about stoicism I remember saying that Epictetus might have been a stoic, but if you put him in a room with me and gave me a battery, some jumper cables, a rusty knife and a lemon he would forget all about that stoic bs in a heart beat.
That said, epicurean pickle sounds pretty tasty.

that easy to say for a 16th century nobleman from Boudreaux while he is sitting around talking about wheels and shit. I have a feeling that Torquemada could have changed his mind about it though. Like mel brooks says, Torquemada – do not beg him for mercy. Torquemada – do not ask him for forgiveness. Let’s face it – you can’t Torquemada anything!

In his essais there is an entire part on that with countless examples of different people behaving like badasses before to be slaughtered, or even prefering death to annoying life. There are for examples the Jewish Spanish women who would throw their kids into wells or slitching their throat to avoid having them converting to catholicism.
There is also that noble Frenchman who had to choose between marrying an ugly lame woman or being hanged and choose being hanged.
Anyway, it seemed to him that it wasn’t that hard and that cowards were actually a minority.

I think that the cia people say that the problem with torture is not that it doesn’t work, it is that it is unreliable. I will literally tell you fucking anything you want to hear if you promise to take the jumper cables off my sack. So a lot of times the information you get from someone under torture is just what the tortured person thinks you want to hear.
That said, we aren’t talking about getting reliable information we are talking about breaking down the mantle of stoicism. I could go stoically to a guillotine, but I can’t even watch the scene where Daniel Craig gets his nuts smashed in. There is pretty much nothing I wouldn’t do to avoid that situation. I am pretty sure that Montaigne, despite having some big talk, would not have held his stoic mantle up while having his balls smashed in either.

Modern torture is much more subtle and scientific than it used to be. Monsieur’s observations about sleep deprivation and liquid food is spot on, they get you to a place mentally where you’re likely to say every single thing that’s entered your mind, not because you fear pain, but because your mind has been tweaked and manipulated in such a way that you lose your bearings entirely.

Like you I’d tell some goon any sweet thing he wanted to hear if he was sticking an icepick through my nuts. But if I’m just so tired and confused and my mental clock was totally out of wack I could be easily…moved….to tell you actual facts.

I can see that. But again, remember, the discussion begins from the simple statement that ice pick + balls = patina of stoicism leaving very swiftly. No modern techniques needed. If I was forced to do my own laundry I would give away state secrets, but that is just me. I am sure it is different for people specifically chosen for an ability to resist things like that and then trained rigorously.

That said, I am pretty sure a 16th century French nobleman who says that he would be stoic in the face of torture would cry like a baby the second a knotted rope, a seatless chair and his testicles all came together.

Well stoicism is more an ideal to pursue. No one is really perfectly stoic in every situation. So maybe he would have been, maybe he wouldn’t. He was kind of tough though, went through the Religion wars, so let us give him the benefit of the doubt.
But for example I know that Indian prisoners were expected to show extreme composure while having their feet gently roasted. There are other countless examples in history.
So I think it’s possible to be tortured ant take it like a boss.

If you marinate that food in a packet of dry mix alcohol you can get them talkative and they won’t even know they are drunk until it’s too late.
Then withhold water in the morning with a hint of a cure and them bitches will talk.

Epictetus always stuck in my craw too. I remember wanting to vomit after reading him. I’ve since softened my stance on Stoicism a bit, but still, my credulity only extends so far as the hypothetical that involves the enslaved/tortured man suddenly switching places with the torturer, and then not caring to exact any sort of vengeance because he was perfectly happy to endure his sufferings. That thought makes me ill.

As a friend of mine said recently after annihilating a hornet’s nest from which a hornet had stung someone close, “I believe in peace, love, and massive retaliation.”

I consider myself MGTOW and even I get laid and have dates sometimes.
MGTOW is simply being infested with millenial neckbeards who have the usual penchant for doing nothing and then complaining about their lot in life.

Truth is that in my endeavors with women, I’m still going my own way. I don’t do what’s expected of me, and things will go the way I want them to or I’m out the door.

There is a difference between MGTOW and what Aaron Clarey calls VirginTOW. The latter are in the anger phase, and may be stuck there. But MGTOW like me recognize that the legal climate is far too hostile to men to risk something like marriage, and have gone Galt.

What does it even mean to say distance yourself from mgtow? You don’t like that some guys aren’t fucking girls so you’re gonna go get married and get fucked over by the state? Wtf are you even talking about? That shit isn’t a good idea even if mgtow isn’t totally appealing to you.

Good point. I think I might just refer to myself as Red Pill from now on. Being divorced, it’s been great to have a place to unload nuclear-level toxicity, but now I’ve cooled off. I don’t loathe females and their crappy behavior anymore, now I just don’t care. I don’t want a relationship, and relationships don’t just “happen” to men by accident, so I think I am safe!! Middle-aged divorced guy MGTOWs and the young guys who are having issues socially and getting with women… two different groups entirely. I actually have good “game” skills… I just have zero desire to use them. I used to think there is nothing better than kissing (and feeling up) a woman for the first time. Now I think the only time I would lip lock with another human being is trying to save someone’s life with CPR – and that’s only out of sheer necessity. So if guys are walking away, why are the noble knights in the 60% zone fighting over used-up women with kids so obsessed with shaming MGTOW (A: when you’ve got nothing else in your trick bag to up your SMV, you can put down other men to make your SMV look higher. It’s the most pathetic behavior a human male can subject himself to, and most guys do exactly that.)

Ive never seen the term Mgtow as a personal label, it’s more a term used so that other like minded individuals can easily share data, ideas, tips and discuss points of view. This is why so many were Mgtow before it was known as Mgtow.

I’m starting to wonder if that comment about Mgtow being overtaken by incels and lazy gamers is just an excuse to try to put it down.

It’s strange how Ive never even had a conversation with one of those type and the only ones I seem to talk to online are all about self improvement, enjoying your environment, learning new skills and keeping safe.

The Mgtows I know in real life are the same. One is an outdoors guy that hikes, camps, swims and enjoys quiet and the other is sociable. None of them even play video games (nothing wrong if they did). None consider themselves Mgtow but they are always bringing up Mgtow point of view without realising.

I’ve been on mgtow.com forum and the guys there are nothing like this article describes them. A lot of them are very helpful and informative. They primarily offer each other advises on how to recover from rape divorce and similarly situations. They do offer advises on various paths for self-improvement. What’s wrong with that?

The author here bases his argument on few comments left on this site. Corey Savage should have done a proper research before launching his unnecessary attack.

And I wonder, what is the neo-masculinity movement going to gain from shaming these people? A lot of them are likely to swing back and forth. Why not try to attract them instead?

So Corey is basing it off some comments left on ROK and you’re basing it off of one forum…
I don’t know who’s right or wrong here but from personal observations (discussions left here and various MGTOW YouTubers) the general sentiment that I get from these guys are one of anger, resentment, and/or disdain towards women. It isn’t simply them saying “eh, no thanks” it’s a lot of whiny behavior and explaining why they never want to touch a woman, let alone be in a LTR with one.
I enjoy listening to some of these guys (TFM, for example) as they do discuss interesting topics from time to time, but it still comes back to a point of whiny behavior instead of coming from a position of power and strength.
To each their own.

Its just too broad and open for interpretation as you have just shown. There is no point in its existence as an acronym. Its being used as a crutch for undesirable men, the same way feminism is used by ugly women who cant get a man if they wanted to.. which they do. lol. A lot of MGTOW men would accept open legs from a 7+ female. you know?

Based on what I’ve observed in men who identify as MGTOW, I’d say it’s a pretty big tent, making it impossible to pin them down as this or that. Many MGTOW men seem to be very successful and are very keen on self improvement, if we are to even call it that. Many MGTOW men seem to have a PUA streak in them as well. My main criticism of MGTOW is that they don’t appear to have any concern for the future of Western Civilization. They seem content to enjoy the decline and/or are indifferent to it. I can certainly relate due to the disgusting, fem-centric, and weak state of Western Civilization, but at the same time I can’t help but be concerned with the future. So while the men of MGTOW are reacting rationally to the state of Western Civilization, they are merely another symptom of its decline rather than a solution. Perhaps enjoying the decline is the best solution for now though. Once weak men and women no longer have strong men to do their work for them it will create an opportunity for us to re-establish a stronger and more masculine order within Western Civilization. I only hope it doesn’t take too long in the face of invading hordes from the third world which could potentially doom Western Civilization for good.

Like I said, I believe the MGTOW response to the fem-centric nature of modernity in Western Civilization is indeed rational, but it shouldn’t be confused with a solution, it is merely a symptom.

While I would agree that the nature of Western Civilization today is indeed extremely feminine, it doesn’t have to be this way. Civilization can be directed toward masculine purposes. I’m thinking about things along the lines of space travel, immortality, the nature of consciousness/reality, wisdom, and strength.

Civilizations rise and fall, but civilizations are a manifestation of the men who build them. As long as men of European descent live on, the heart and soul of Western Civilization lives on with them. This is why the invasion by the third world hordes into Europe and America has the potential to be so devastating.

The big tent thing is quite clear. I am not hostile towards women. I enjoy their company and their soft bodies. I even like talking at them from time to time. That said, I have no desire to share my inner self with them. My life is all about me. And in that sense I can be seen as MGTOW despite the fact that I have sex with women. On another side of the tent there are people who just hate women and eschew all interaction with them. MGTOW is, as you say, too big of a tent and some new jargon really needs to be created.

I think any man who thinks for himself and makes informed decisions in order to do what is best for himself can be considered MGTOW in the context of (((the current year))). Until this becomes the MO for the majority of men, I suppose the acronym will continue to be useful.

I agree with this. The problem here is that not everyone does. So If I say, on a website, that men should be MGTOW and I mean that they should think for themselves and be more concerned with personal growth than with pussy it could easily be read as advice to drop out of society. I am going to come up with a good acronym

That’s your assumption. Not all MGTOW are hostile to women. I’m indifferent to most women. I’m not into mindless small talk. Having sex with a woman isn’t my cup of tea when I know she has been with more than handful of men.

Luckily when I ran into my high milage fling in Montana I had too much whiskey in me to get it up so the fist got it.
Like chucking a donkey dick down a hallway and later found out she had 9 kids.
At least my dick dodged a bullet.

A term that I apply to many of the women in the small towns I lived in “Montuffalos”.

You have identified the main thing that convinced me to go MGTOW that I have not seen addressed here in the comments. Once I was convinced and had plenty of evidence from the past 15 years of dealing with women to back up what the MGTOW guys were telling me (that on the fundamental level, women do not love men in the way we want to be loved and ultimately don’t care about the man himself, but only what he can do for her) that was enough for me to stop trying with them. Because getting the women was never really the problem if I tried diligently enough. The real issue was they never really listened to, asked thoughtful questions about, or cared about me the person (even 3 different women who were “sooo in love” enough to marry me did not do these things), and therefore I saw it was impossible for real “love” to take place, so at that point, why should I even bother? I never married any of them, by the way. I learned the truth just in time to avoid the last one, which would have been a total disaster in hindsight. Thanks to MGTOW, I dodged some serious bullets.

Back in 2010 a family I know here in the states had a 13 year old daughter who was on birth control (thanks to mom who was ok with it) and banging an 18 year old but the thing is she stuck with him and moved to Montana where he works Railroad while she just had a kid.

I found myself thinking that she was young but it was a great deal for the boyfriend since he got a loyal, youthful wife and she got a stable home which is win win in today’s generally FUBARistic world.
There are happy stories out there but that shit is like 1800’s kinda rare at least here in the states.

Dude an 18 year old guy with a 13 year old is pretty far in age range for a relationship and that with the current laws that we have against men, he’ll go straight to jail. But hey lucky them and no one says nothing.

Precisely MGTOW has some stunning insights from time to time when describing to and informing men about the crazy shit this world does to men these days that can save good men from total devastation.

I think the big problem also is that some men who feel they achieve constant success in life genuinely feel they are superior beings compared to less successful men.

I would argue that sometimes that is true and others not so much since every good man we make aware of the best aspects of pua and mgtow thought processes and who is willing to help himself is another man that will be equipped to be there for society and other men when the time comes that our enemies attempt to encircle us.

When you genuinely open up and get nothing in return – no empathy or recognition of what you are about you realise something is amiss. I remember one of the top PUA guys (Krauser, I think) saying in an interview that you should be more invested in your opinion of yourself than other peoples opinion of you.

I get it, I do. It’s easy for one to give zero fucks when there’s still doctors to perform surgeries and prescribe anti biotics for infections, still dentists to treat cavities, and still engineers and scientists innovating to make ever more advances in technology and production. But guess what all these doctors, dentists, scientists, and engineers have in common? They’re all betas! Whether we realize it or not, we need betas! You alluded to it yourself, betas make the world go round! The problem is that right now, betas are being led by women and it’s leading to disastrous results. I know it’s easy to look down on betas, but there is something honorable about them, and we can’t have a civilization if everyone were an alpha. Look at Africa, every black dude walking around thinks he’s an alpha cuz muh dick and because of that they’re still living in the fucking stone age. Betas need alphas to lead and guide them, and alphas need betas to get shit done. It already happens on a small scale. One can look at men hanging out together and see who the alpha pack leader is. What we need is an alpha leader on a national level as well! Look at Obama, he is a beta through and through. Weak, effete, and gay AF. Stop letting your beta brothers down and guide them. Alphas are natural leaders and will find this role just as satisfying, if not more so than crushing pussy on the regular. Feminization and covetous Jews seek to keep the alpha man down and are happy to see him amount to nothing more than a pussy crusher. There needs to be an alpha awakening as to his higher purpose.

Society used to reward betas by providing them a chance to sire children, and be married. It was a huge incentive. Now, there is no incentive for being a “good guy” aside from getting a pat on the back for taking care of another man’s kids, until she leaves and you get this new “step parent child support” going on. Women want carte-blanche sexual freedom? Fine. They can pick up the tab for it. But no, they want beta men to pay for their kids, and they want big daddy gubmint to pay for freezing their eggs until after career time, their birth control, you name it. Basically, women are saying their vaginas are precious and shouldn’t cost them anything. The rest of us should pay because they have them. I won’t pay. MGTOW is about walking away from the plantation and letting it burn. The guys in the 60% zone putting women on a pedestal despite their whorish and deplorably selfish behavior… those fellas can take the wheel – and get their wallets out. My money is for me and my kids and no parasite woman.

I agree 100%. The demonization of anything that represents Western masculinity has alienated betas from the leadership they require. Once things get bad enough for them and they realize they have become literal slaves of the vagina and all the degeneracy and destruction it entails, there will be a beta uprising and then magically their alpha leader will appear. This might be happening right now in the form of the Trump phenomena. Exciting times!

Part of the feminist agenda was the emasculation men, as well as redefining everything male as being toxic, especially toxic to women. Third wave feminism has gone off the bat-shit crazy rails with this whole “toxic masculinity” rampage since Elliot Rodger killed more men than women to show how misogynistic he was. Masculinity is (was) part of the glue that held families together. This glue, they found, was penetrable. Emasculation of a future generation of men stared in elementary schools 30+ years ago when they (love this line) “started medicating boys and treating them as if they were dysfunctional girls”. “Boys will be boys” turned into “Boys are toxic. They need to be medicated and shamed until they act like girls.” I see why you younger guys are going towards a “man up” movement in the face of all this systematic emasculation, I really do. But for a guy my age (45, divorced, 2 kids) I am at a different stage in life with a much different world view.

The slave has no morality, since he has no choice but to conform to his master rules. And morality must comes from a free choice, like charity.
Therefore, if morality there are, there only are master morality.

Free choice? That’s a pretty illusion. Confusing the spontaneous a priori synthesis which allows for freedom of thought with some kind of insane notion that we can make free choices is a mistake.
The slave morality is more of an ethos and a pathos though, so I guess you have me there. However, there can be no master morality because the becoming of a master one sheds morality.
Behold, I give you the overman.

I don’t know, I have the same level of acceptance for some men after some experiences with certain idiocy and ridiculousness. I think the sex of the person is interchangeable when it comes to having points where the skinning is appropriate.

Yay, you finally got a whip of the vag & now have to find a way to work it into every conversation on the internet. Another reason why I avoid these circles, no one cares. I’m 57. I’ve gotten laid more times than most of you’ve had lunch. It’s like taking a shit for me.

Well the legendary sexual prowess of Tony Bologna the Italian scallion aside, it was just a joke about how women over the last decade seem to be getting into kinkier and kinkier shit. You would know that if you had gotten your meatballs squeezed at some point in time post 9-11. You might also be happier and sound a lot less like an uninformed, bitter cunt. In fact, I’m going to read your posts with Hilary Clinton’s voice from now on.

This sounds entirely too much like feminism to me.
1. Stopped improving and trying to attract the opposite sex, much like the fat feminists who no man would ever touch.
2. Bitches constantly about the opposite sex.
3. Probably thinks they are oppressed.
4. Seeks the destruction of the family unit. This movement will further kill families if everyone hopped on board. Nothing wrong with a dude seeking lots of meaningless sex, especially now with such a horrible pool of ladies to choose from, but the end goal matches up with feminism too much for my tastes.

I do think mgtow is damaging to society but it’s a response to feminist society. You can choose to be a cuck or stand up for yourself.. it’s supposed to be kind of cringy and anti feminist, that’s the point. It’s like a mockery of feminism.. to call attention to the short comings of our fucked up society to change them for the better of all men.. fuck that right? That’s just weird.. fuck custody of your children.. who wants that? A lot of mgtows are men who said fuck mgtow and then they got fucked and had to be like, yup you told me so.. but I was like naaaah I’m gonna go start a family in America.. and then they lost their house.. kids.. job.. car. Because they didn’t know thats how this system works and women are actually using it like this on purpose to replace men with government benefits.. get pregnant, ditch the man, get child support, get government benefits, find another man so now they get even more money from the new guy (he’s the beta provider male) and if he speaks up HE gets dropped and she gets MORE child support then finds ANOTHER guy and gets MORE money… you just keep being disposable and thinking you’re the king buddy.. I’m sure thats what your girl tells you when she’s fucking you and playing you. But you’ll find out later.

MGTOW is a low energy, non-committal, risk free stance towards the world. It lacks any vibrancy or possibilities that situations and fortunes change as a man progresses.

It has an uncanny kind of resonance to the 1950s existentialism of someone like J.P Sartre, especially as expounded in the long and torturous tact, Being and Nothingness, which he soon abandoned for its failure to address the issue of how a free man must eventually commit to the world in some tangible manner.

The MGTOW philosophy appears to be an act of “bad faith” to use Sartre’s term. It denies rather than affirms man’s true place in the world, which isn’t healthy. However, some of it’s ideas merit more attention, it’s denial of the power of female sexuality to have complete control over a man’s center of gravity is a genuinely interesting idea, that has a touch of Gnosticism about it. Nevertheless, it’s hard to determine where its endpoint actually leads?

Nicely said and I do think you are right about the venn diagram overlap of Satrre style existentialism and a certain type of MGTOW. However, as we said below about MGTOW being a big tent, so too is existentialism.

In the same way that there is a very affirmative MGTOW whereby one focuses on personal growth rather than chasing skirts (though it winds up that the skirts come around anyway) that is opposed to the negative and hostile MGTOW which you accurately and elegantly explain, so too with existentialism.

For every “low energy, non-committal, risk free stance” of existentialism like Sartre and Camus there is the high energy philosophy with a hammer of Nietzsche or Kierkegaard’s leap of faith.

The danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater is very present in both MGTOW and Existentialism and I think that the weapon which needs to be used to combat the negative aspects is not an opposing philosophy, but an opposing energy in the same philosophy so negative v positive MGTOW

Personally my view of MGTOW has always been men deciding that living their life for sex was not the end all and be all of existence. There is more to life than wanting to have sex. Not being beholden to sex or women is the way to go. What the article highlights are the folks who identify as MGTOW but are merely just angry over all the shit they did in order to gain societal acceptance. Yes, you are only a man if you get married or take ever increasing responsibility of a woman and have kids and take responsibility for them. Work until you fucking fall dead only to be hated by your wife and kids. I see a lot of hurt men who went through the marriage and divorce ringer and came out the other side angry that they even fell into the trap to begin with.

I’d say, look beyond the angry ones and look at what the people who have moved on from the anger stage are doing. They are quietly moving on with their lives with the full realization that getting involved in a marriage contract in the west is akin to sticking your junk into a meat grinder. There is nothing to be gained and with that realization comes the apathy that allows them to simply ignore the shaming tactics of society and women in particular. You want to say that a MGTOW is a basement dwelling virgin? Go right ahead, why should anyone care about your approval or the approval of some woman? Living your life on your terms not shackled into an ever burdensome marriage contract is worth its weight in gold.

The worst aspect of MGTOW that I have seen is the asserted belief that men withdrawing from the sexual marketplace to go their own way will somehow force change in women over time. That is so naïve, petulant and utterly blue pill, it is laughable.
Consider the 80/20 rule, just for one example. Unless you are getting the top 20% of males to MGTOW, women won’t even *notice* you have left the sexual marketplace.
Also, there are legions of blue pills who will never abandon the quest for the Holy Vag. Women will continue riding the carousel until their loins are so epically stretched out that they slide right off and tumble into some stalwart blue pill White Knight waiting to hoist their pulped roast beef snatches up onto the highest of pedestals.

That was a pretty mgtow comment.. when women start realizing that men aren’t offering them marriage they will probably start to change. The reason they got so bad is because of the culture so why wouldn’t a change of culture change them again?

First, you are assuming that ‘men aren’t offering’ women marriage. MGTOW is a very, very small group of low SMV men who few women want to marry anyway. As I said, women won’t even notice that MGTOW men are MGTOWing.

Second, you assume women will “realize” that men aren’t offering them marriage. Even if, by some miraculous convergence, the MGTOW moment grew large enough to matter, women still will not ‘realize’ what is happening. They will hamster something up to soothe their own egos rather than facing reality.

Third, you assume, if some magical spell were cast and suddenly MGTOW mattered enough to affect women, and if women cleared the hamster fog from their heads long enough to notice, that they would then respond and act in a logical, rational way.

From this final assumption, I can see you are not actually from this planet, but are, in fact, a lizard person from Zeta Epsilon Five. Or, your entire dealings with women have involved your mom and anime.

Are you fucking kidding? Mgtow is populated by highly successful men who’ve had their lives ruined in divorce court. What exactly are you bringing to the table with any of this bullshit anyway? All you’re doing is being critical of mgtow.. what are you suggesting men do? Dare I say you are a female sjw based on the conversational tricks you are employing by constantly using quotations around selected words I’ve used such as “realized” and “offered”.. as if by putting quotations around words you’ve disproved the use of it . No all you’re really doing is mocking and that’s what women do.. I mean you might just be a simp mangina too its pretty hard to tell the difference online.. and you just kept repeating yourself as if you were bringing up new points.. first of all mgtow isn’t big enough and second of all even if mgtow was big enough to matter.. that’s the same point used twice as two different points.. you’re really just being defeatist with no explanation of a solution. Just leave mgtow behind and what? Business as usual? Men still get fucked in divorce court.. you haven’t addressed any of the issues mgtow addresses all you did was try to infantalize the entire movement. I think your website might be run by women.. just a thought.

I admit, my response did devolve into snark there at the end, which is unnecessary. Obviously, this is a very significant issue for you that you take very personally.

My comment was not directed at the entire MGTOW movement. but at the theory among some that by MGTOWs withdrawing from the sexual marketplace, it will somehow force a change in women’s behavior. I disagree with that premises.

My first point was about the number and SMV of men not offering marriage being so low as to not garner any attention from women as a whole.

My second point was that even if the number and SMV was high enough to draw their attention, they would not process it or realize it in the way you suggest they would. They would hamster it rather than realizing it for what it is.

My third point is that they would not respond in a logical or rational way, even it they noticed and realized it for what it was.

I can completely respect a guy who goes ‘monk mode’ or withdraws from the sexual marketplace to focus on himself or his passion or whatever. I can even understand guys who MGTOW to protect themselves from the very real damage women can do to them just for daring to participate in the sexual marketplace… like get them arrested for hitting on them in some places.

I personally believe, however, that it is a fallacy to think that some kind of MGTOW marriage strike will affect a rational, reasonable response from women on a significant scale. Or any response at all, for that matter.

Why do women act the way they do now? Because of the way men act and let them get away with it. If we stand up as men they will have to change whether it’s logical or emotional or whatever. We’re supposed to be the ones setting the precedent anyway and somehow we’ve lost it and started giving women a voice and it’s infecting our minds to where we think a woman’s point of view is more valid than our own. I just read the authors blurb about himself and it does say giving into man’s primal nature so that is not self actualizing. I mean it may or may not be. It kinda leaves out the higher levels of the Maslow hierarchy of needs.

Western women are beyond redemption, all they will do is act like they have changed until you marry them, then it is too late when they reveal themselves to be narcissistic feminists, and they will redistribute your wealth as before.

The only option is to find women who are not infected by the Western culture of female entitlement.

Yes feminism is just one part of the leftwing social structure redesign, feminism is Marxist/Lesbianism at its core. It is used along with things like Gay Rights, Affirmative Action, Transgenderism and Feminism movements, just to name a few, in order to achieve social engineering.

I am not in that small MGTOW group and I would not even call it a official strike or that I am on strike. Lived with 3 women for years and deserve some monk status until a unicorn appears. My observation which means nothing sees something big coming. We are already seeing it in Japan, Sweden and other Euro countries.

70% of men aged 24-34 are not married in the USA. That could soon hit 90%. This is a pretty big deal for society and taxpayers.

It’s a distribution. If we are going to use SMV, that is see this as a market, we have a distribution. The price of women (time, effort, money, risk, etc) has increased beyond the ability of some men to pay and the willingness of many more to pay. This is due to the interferences. Even with such distortions markets clear eventually.

The idea that it won’t clear while continuing with the SMV concept strikes me as illogical. Markets clear. If this is a market it will clear. If won’t clear then it’s not a market and the whole SMV concept needs to be tossed.

“My comment was not directed at the entire MGTOW movement. but at the theory among some that by MGTOWs withdrawing from the sexual marketplace, it will somehow force a change in women’s behavior. I disagree with that premises.”

Withdrawing from women for most of us, as far as I know, has little to do with “changing women as a group” and more to do with self preservation! I mean, I am sure there is a sentiment towards a revenge fantasy against feminism and gynocentric culture… I am rather tough on MGTOW detractors because they make a lot of sweeping generalizations that fit their own theories and narratives – but I will agree on this: The MGTOW movement is small, and women are not going to change because of it. Now, when the entire middle of the mating arena (men in the fight-for-your-wife 60%) start to finally listen to the realities of hypergamy and the dead-end road of beta-dom, this could spell trouble for a lot of would-be brides… especially those who are now done with “career and the cock carousel” and are ready to setting down and play family with a “good guy, with a good income”.

MGTOW think these women should get cats and dildos, not good men. If men want these washed up harridans with kids from all kinds of Chads, hey guys. Fill your boots.

Totally agree. Maybe getting divorce raped is not the only group calling themselves MGTOW, but I can certainly count myself in that number.

LIke I commented above, MGTOW is a label that meant something a few years ago. Now we’ve got one guy defining MGTOW in his own way, which I believe is an attack on real red-pill men.

Redefining terms and reframing the movement is a common liberal tactic. If MGTOW is bad, then what the hell is a PUA in this day and age? But are we not all striving to have high level game to slay pussy at will — the focus of PUA?

I just don’t see much value in these futile exercises to redefine what was good, and using it to attack those who still use the old vernacular simply because we’ve been around longer.

We must better ourselves, and do something productive in life. No matter if single, or finding a wife. I am going to do what I can to learn new things, and when opportunity opens I will travel though the door.

To find a wife you must practice “wife game”. I am experimenting with this right now but basically the start point is to identify women who would make good wives. Seems obvious but a pretty face can distort our perceptions. Generally you want to go for the more modest looking women who exhibit good feminine habits.

LMAO. Yes, men are simply ‘finding wives incorrectly’ and need to practice “wife game”. This idea is based on the notion that North American women are not, as a gender, damaged beyond repair. Thing is, if you think you can find a needle in a haystack (or, a specific needle in a stack of needles) then go for it.

The idea that the problem is “men picking the wrong woman” and men need to “pick women more wisely” is based on the idea that one woman differs from another. Maybe where you are in the world there is still hope. In North American we have NAWALT (not all women are like that) and EWALT (ENOUGH women are like that) If you find a path to happiness then I am happy for you. If you are going to go into a relationship, then I would agree that you should spend a lot of time getting to know that person (and perhaps their parents and siblings too). But in North America, the well has been poisoned by feminism.

That wife game comment was the funniest thing in this entire discussion! I laughed out loud when I read that one hahaa. I will try that after I finish trying to find that grain of rice that was accidentally dropped in the desert…..

The point of MGTOW is that heterosexual men, to a man, are invariably and inevitably better off giving up any consideration for any particular woman or women generally….Hunt successfully only when out of necessity. consume one’s quarry efficiently out of sustenance alone……and move on to considering genuine consequential matters of intellectual or tribal substance….things that are worthy of a man’s time and attention..

Why is the analogy right now? Marriage? Crossing a street in comparison to marriage is like if a woman hits you while she’s driving she gets half your stuff and your house.. yeah just be more careful bro.. I dont think that’s even a good analogy at all tho. Marriage is like crossing a street? You can’t be careful. Prenups are useless and get thrown out in court. The incentive is for the woman to leave the man and take everything, not to have a good marriage.. how do you be more careful? That’s just some generic shit to say that you can’t actually do.. that’s like saying be careful while putting on a condom filled with barbed wire.. you just gotta be careful…

Even if you dont get married, all these bitches you guys pretend to fuck could still get pregnant (if they were even real) and therefore mgtow issues still affect you.. it’s not like mgtow only applies to people who call themselves mgtow.. it applies to all men..

What do you mean by Mgtow issues? Look man, life is dangerous. I’m not going to stop living just because there’s a little risk. Seriously, the things men have gone through in the past make your complaints look pathetic.

all these bitches you guys pretend to fuck

And right here you have revealed your true insecurity. You can’t get laid. So you pretend that you don’t want to get laid.

If a bitch gets pregnant then thats a grown up problem and I’ll come up with a grown up solution. I won’t be sitting in my basement whining about it on the Internet.

Omg the you can’t get laid card.. please dude.. you’re showing your hand that you totally use pussy for validation.. and so you are pussy whipped and controlled. This is exactly what I’ve been talking about. I knew it would come down to this because I know what you’re about. I know what your game is.. that’s why people are mgtow. To break out of that mindset where you just go with the motions and put up with life as it comes and become another victim of gynocentrism. You’re putting pussy on a pedestal and worshipping it for self validation and eventually when it gets pregnant you’ll just get mopped up in court and maybe even go to jail over it. You put up with women’s head games and maybe are even a little bit of a bitch around women. That’s the way it has to be. If you act like any kind of a man around a woman she will dump you for some other beta bitch who does what she says. You are not telling me that you’re the man in the relationship and you do you hat you want and she does what you say.. you are not telling me this right now.. our whole society has been under mind control in the media for a long time to turn women into nasty people and make men subservient to them. Idk maybe you just don’t really pay attention and your mind is in another world that you think is real. You have this vision of yourself as a man who does this and that woo woo but the reality is you just pick up after your women and they sit back and collect your money.

My friend you laid your hand out for all to see. Don’t blame me for it.

I suggest you use less “you” and more “I”. See how that changes your perspective.

There’s no point in me answering your baseless accusations. You have already decided that life is for you is the same for everyone else. And this is the heart of your problem. You think that self-improvement is futile or illusory in spite of all evidence to the contrary. And this gives you a built-in excuse to do nothing to improve your own life.

Mgtow is ABOUT self improvement… have you ever even watched a mgtow video? You make it painfully obvious that you dont even know what you’re talking about. How many times do I have to repeat myself for you to understand? You’re the type of dude who just gets caught up whenever it happens and you just deal with it when it happens. I’m the type of dude who sees it coming and avoids it. I’ve had some nasty interactions with girlfriends.. yeah can you believe it I’ve fucked before. Neat right? It’s because i don’t put up with their shit. You my friend are a dirty tampon..

Not tolerating bullshit in ones life equals whiner.. taking shit from people equals be a man. That be a man shit is stuff they say to control you and manipulate you. Just because you fall for it doesn’t make you a man.. it makes you a dupe.. a man says what he thinks and doesn’t take any shit from people. Especially women. If you do what a woman says because you want pussy then you’re pussywhipped..

MGTOW cultist’s (as opposedd to real MGTOW) love to rant about marriage, yet they still want sex with women, they still contribute to society and pay taxes, so they are still helping women and feminism and are still accepting risks with interacting with women.

Marriage is not the problem, its the cultural attitudes of western women.

Well, it’s clear that YOU have never experienced a bad divorce…..and you know what, I hope that you never, EVER do………Just admit naivete, bro. You know not of what you speak. Listen and learn……Listen and learn. Forgo “romance”(just another word for “bullshit”) in favor of self-respect.

I think its you who should listen and learn, I am far more aware of the reality of the situation, you know nothing about me and have ended up looking like a clown. Now if you want to take this any further please PLEASE do contact me via facebook.

It may have started that way, but now MGTOW is attracting people who are Beta’s gamer boys already, so they just like to make out they are the way they are by choice. But in reality few are MGTOW by choice. Online MGTOW has become a cult that tells men they are only going their own way IF they adhere to the MGTOW rules.

There aren’t any mgtow rules. Maybe some people are getting dogmatic. That’s probably just their own tendency to be dogmatic. It doesn’t totally define mgtow. Mgtow is go your own way.. it means do whatever you want. It means don’t feel like you have to take on traditional male gender roles and be forced into systems that work against you.. our social systems fuck men and use us as cannon fodder.. it’s about recognizing that and maybe intelligently resisting it or throw yourself into the volcano if that’s your choosing..

As stated marriage is not the problem, its the ccultural attitudes that prevail within a demographic that are.

Try telling a MGTOW Cultist that they can marry or even not be anti-marriage and still be going their own way. They go nuts, mostly all lame gamer dudes thinking they are MGTOW now by choice, but their current situation they are in just fits in with the appearance of MGTOW yet they have no other choice due to their own abilities or limitations. Natural selection means not everyone is born a winner.

I make >$100K per year and I’m not a gamer. Gee, I guess I can’t be a MGTOW then. Maybe I’m just a middle-aged red piller… what a bunch of beta male white-knights orbiting entitled fat ladies think of me is *really* not that important anyways.

Thankfully thats not what i am nor what most of us true MGTOW are. I earn over 100k a year and I don’t even work, but I agree these loser beta male gamer nerds flocking to MGTOW should be ignored or atleast treated with contempt.

But I also agree that you should not worry what beta male white knights think either, and avoid fat girls too. My girl is non-western, non-white, antifeminist, anti beta gamer boy losers etc. We are here to destroy western society and feminism along with it 🙂 Its time for a social reboot, and thats going your own way.

When the mgtow.com site was still working, it was populated by deranged individuals who would answer any disagreement with childish mud slinging and hissy fits. Fat omegas with manboobs, the lot of you.

“MGTOW” is simply a way for losers to tell themselves they are winners. And it has nothing to do with the manosphere. Any more than people with no money to invest, who denounce investment as evil, have anything to do with an investment forum.

Society needs to believe the trope of the quintessential MGTOW: – loser, fat, unmotivated. It’s important that society believes that anyone who would voluntarily leave the mating arena to be a broken human being. Failure to believe this goes against the base instinct of human procreative drive and ultimately survival of the species. Society simply needs to *believe* MGTOW are losers. It just makes sense, really.

It’s the broken legal system that promotes women leaving their husbands. Does no one understand anything? I’m sorry that no one here knows what mgtow is actually about but it’s really annoying talking to all these people and reading a bunch of ignorant comments.. single motherhood on the rise. They would tell you it’s because men leave their women. It’s actually because women push men away to get child support and government benefits. Why have one guy when they can get his money and government money and some other new guys money? Think about you jackasses.. divorced men are the ones who started mgtow.. yes it’s mra.. mra is men’s rights.. mgtow is a men’s group. Men.. hello.. it’s all about men’s rights.. it’s the same shit stupid.. why do you try so hard to separate things that are the same thing.. squares are rectangles.. I bet you don’t believe me. Why don’t you try LOOKING IT UP… I don’t care what a few mgtows told you.. yeah there’s a lot of guys who can’t get fucked.. theyve always been there. Does that mean that everything mgtow is about somehow doesn’t exist? It’s about our legal system and and our fucked up society created largely by feminism. Yes mgtow is anti feminist. Avoiding marriage is a big response of anti feminism. Also the marriage industry is fucked. It’s all about wasting money treating women like princesses for one day then they begin the process of divorcing you and taking all your money. It’s a big fucking machine and you are the victim of it. Lots of guys think they aren’t mgtow till this happens to them and they go FUCK now im mgtow.. people used to get married 3 or more times till they figured this all out for us.. thanks to those guys btw. As i said it doesn’t mean you have to stop fucking girls. Its about recognizing what’s happening and not making yourself a victim. Unless that’s your thing in which case do whatever you want.. it’s your own way.. this article is talking about one type of person it’s not every mgtow.

Heaven for fend it actually be a reasonable response; a, well-informed active choice born out of being royally burned by a vast experience suffering under the tyranny that is the legal vaginopoly that ALL hetero men are forced to suffer under when dealing with any modern state family law court.in The United States….hmm?

Agree! I own a thriving business and am successful in more ways than before MGTOW. My time is valuable. It is not about HER time but now about the company time. I have TOTAL freedom. I like sex and get all I need, but NEVER in a RELATIONSHIP. Why buy a car when I can rent a new one anytime I want?

Spot on. I think it’s those in the middle 40 – 60% and lower SMV who will suffer the most as a result of this. And by that I mean both sexes. MGTOWs need to realise that a man can raise his SMV 1 – 3 points a lot easier than a woman especially after the age of 30. MGTOW is playing on mens insecurties exactly the same as feminism is for women.

Absolutely. I’ve just moved to the outer edge of London and the sheer number of reasonably attractive men with fat women is staggering . They just don’t realise their potential and it breaks my heart to see it.

I see the same in Western Australia, live in Perth, you go to the shopping malls, even suburban shopping strips and you see this hefelump, scoffing coffee and cake, with a guy a quarter the size of IT, sitting there as if he has hit the jackpot, I would rather hit monk mode than be seen with a hambeast.

If any person gives up on even a bit of self-improvement and stagnate they are moving backwards and then you get left behind, so slag improvement all you want, eventually you will be come irrelevant.

I agree with the first half of your comment. As for self-improvement, I embrace it in the areas that interest me (health, for example). However, we are ALL irrelevant to most people. The only difference is a MGTOW doesn’t give a shit what others think. Which is why i think this attack on MGTOWs is just masturbation for the insecure writer; desperately searching for a little attention.

I have listened to quite a few MGTOW video’s and read their websites, sure don’t come across as Men going their own way, sounds like a man’s version of feminists, bitch and complain, instead of doing something about their situation.

Life is not fair, everyone gets fucked over at some point in their lives, have your moment about it, then pick ourself up and see what went wrong and start working on yourself, cry and playing the victim card is really lame, I expect that from feminists not real men, then again a lot of feminists are men.

This is my experience as well. I never really went searching, but the ‘manosphere’ is full of intersections. Travel and ‘go abroad’ websites are full of these people (which is insane, because 99% of them never go anywhere, but it seems consistent across multiple sites). The people identifying as MGTOWs are the same people who have been ‘swearing off’ women since like 2007, possibly before MGTOW was even a term. Which, in itself, is fine. If you’ve really got better things to do, who am I to judge? And yet any time a feminist article makes the rounds, they’re there sharing it and writing their own counter essays about it, and having a circle jerk. In fact, they seem to spend almost all their time searching for things that offend them (remind you of any other group?). That’s not ‘going your own way’ at all. You’re STILL following women, it’s just that now, instead of trying to date/have sex/interact with them, you’re spitefully following along behind them, like a bunch of scalded cats.

I don’t begrudge people having a period where they vent out their frustrations after ‘taking the red pill.’ We all probably need to do that. I know I was probably pretty obnoxious about it for a bit as well. But…you don’t need ten years to vent. Eventually you need to just get on with your life.

Australia in general is hell for men. Women at work try setting me up with their ugly blimp roommates and friends and wonder why I keep passing. They see me as low SMV and lucky to have the crumbs on the floor, fuck that.

You determine your market value, be realistic, if you’re a couch potato then you are one, not some feminazi, with insecurities and Hollywood process dreams, real princesses STFU and do as they are told, contrary to Hollywood BS.

You see that a lot with tradies. He’s out all day lugging timber or clambering around in ceilings, while she’s presumably at home scoffing boxes of chocolates. [Edit – actually I saw that recently. Muscular bloke, tub-a-lard carrying a Hayes Chocolates bag. Clearly her choice of what to buy on their trip into the ‘big smoke’]

Even better is completely ignoring the “stunner”, treating her like shit and acting like you are repulsed by her appearance.

The look of confusion on the “stunner’s” face is priceless while she tries to figure out why you aren’t kissing her ass like everybody else. The nicer the “stunner” tries to be to get you to like her the more contempt you show.

Destroying a “stunner’s” over inflated ego and self esteem is much more satisfying than banging a “stunner”

My old bud here in the USA just brought back an 18 year old and he is round like 35.
This dude is repulsive as hell,goofy, and smokes cigarettes but get this.
This 18 year old is a fat assed norwegian chick from Minnesota (may I never return), and she stinks like a mother fucker cause she won’t wash her chisk.

So a little MGTOW style cost/benefit analysis might have been in order but he is the kind of guy who just does the same stupid shit with fat bitches anyway.
MGTOW despite the guys who just wanna whine and sit it out has some nuggets of wisdom that can save clueless but otherwise good men.
I do not identify as MGTOW but I have learned what I could from them to keep my own hide safe and for that I am thankful.

This is a case of one man defining MGTOW. I’ve gone my own way, slay pussy, and have done things most of you whipper snappers only dream about — and did them long before I ever swallowed the red pill.

I don’t know why I even bother commenting on semantics, but WTF is MGTOW anyway? I locked in a definition of MGTOW years ago. However, like the main thrust of RooshV and RoK, things have evolved to focus on other areas of manly living beyond “game”, MGTOW has apparently evolved, or more accurately devolved, into a new label for beta.

What the author is deriding MGTOW’s for are what I beta traits. But if were just here to evolve the definition of everything, well, you’ve just given me another solid reason to GTOW.

So is MGTOW a red-pill man who’s gone his own way, which is the way of the player, the slayer, and the alpha male, because like Neo remaking the matrix as he see fit, the MGTOW constructs his life as he see fits. He does so without regard to the feminists, the SJW’s, the political and cultural Marxists defining the new collective ideology and dialog.

So, if a MGTOW is now a label for beta boy, then so be it. But I’ll hang onto it for now, as it’s an easier way to identify a collective neomasculinity than having to keep learning new labels to attach to what I chose to become when I unplugged over 5 years ago.

This is BS. In all the couples I see, the guy always looks like a skinny faggot doofus. I think everyone who thinks women are looking for a tall, jacked up man with a deep voice are seriously deluded. Being a tall jacked guy has gotten me exactly fucking nowhere. Women don’t want manly men. They like faggy guys. This isn’t the prehistoric era, this isn’t the 1890s, this isn’t the 1950s. All the women today are on the birth control pill from the age of 14: hormonal contraception tricks the female body into thinking it is already pregnant. Studies have shown that females on hormonal contraception prefer effeminate men and see masculine men as threatening.

Most guys are looking at it the wrong way: do not lift, do not get muscles: fag it up. Camp it up. That is what women want.

I partially disagree.
I’ve been a dedicated weightlifter/bodybuilder since 15 years old (22 years) and I get attention from plenty of women.
Interestingly, most of these ladies are already in relationships and see me as fuck-material, but not marriage material.
Their boyfriends or husbands are either skinny beta-males or fat schlubs.

When I was younger it was great, but as I get older I want a stable relationship and children.
So women do respond to the traditional masculine traits and appearance – but I think they view buff guys as “players”, so they just use us as sexual stimulation.

Most people today would do the same if good woman still existed. Good women have for eternity been the driving force between all male motivations. MGTOW is basically the first of it’s kind to put a stop to that. Your comparison isn’t wrong, but it’s not quite right either.

You have it backward. MGTOW means “marriage boycott”, or any relationship with women that will get you to pay alimony, and any form of financial assistant.

Think about this rationally. Why would a man who got alimony, and child support — even for kids not his wanna enslave with another women.

Before anyone got pro PUA. Remember countries like France, Germany, UK, and some province of Canada, you will end up paying for women you had child during one night stand. Also, Same countries do not allow DNA test without mother permission.

Man, that has to be one of the best comments ever written in the history of the internet. That is so fucking true that women WILL NEVER NOTICE! Celibacy can be a healthy phase, I just went through a fair stint, but only if you use it to get your life in order. How could anyone be so foolish as to think women would ever care?

It reminds me of this episode of the Sopranos, Tony comes to work at one of his front companies, basically sitting around shooting the shit with his staff. Well there’s a young hot secretary that catches his eye and he asks his subordinate about her. The chump replies “Oh don’t worry about her, she’s some Christian type”. Very next scene Tony’s f*cken her on top of his desk. MGTOWs are like that chumpy guy, they think that women aren’t the bunch of animals that they really are, because they’ve never been a target of that animalistic lust.

EDIT: Okay maybe I went a little too far. MGTOWs can be all types of people and the label is helpful. But there are some MGTOWs who fit the description very well. And almost all seem to think that their behavior will have an effect on women which is narcissistic and deluded in the extreme.

I don’t think that women are going to change at all even if most men walk away because well, they’re women. What’s important to MGTOW is that they are deciding what’s important in their own lives outside of the standard protocol of following the feminine imperative.

“The worst aspect of MGTOW that I have seen is the asserted belief that men withdrawing from the sexual marketplace to go their own way will somehow force change in women over time.”

This is a projection. Real MGTOW know that the true nature of women will not change. We also know that feminism didn’t change women or make them worse, it has only shown us their true nature.

The top 20% of the sexual marketplace will not change, because it doesn’t have to – and it’s true for both top men and top women. I think where we might see change and MGTOW ideas creep in is in the massive 60% middle area. The ideas that women are hypergamous, that alpha & beta males exist, and the knowledge that marriage is a death trap for men is not exclusive to MGTOW – it’s simply red pill and many of these red pill ideas are showing up in the “60%” zone. It doesn’t matter what the top 20% or the bottom 20% are doing, really. It’s the changes that are happening with average people in the middle that will prove to be interesting.

This attack on MGTOW is motivated trying to get the MGTOW community to the MRA or PUA side. All of you guys are wrong. Blame it feminism, cultural Marxism. In reality you lack the wisdow to fix the problem.

It’s the dead end that feminism is, nothing more, nothing less. Speaking in regards to those who come online and sneer at any other man who goes out and gets laid from time to time. Real “MGTOW” generally out actually improving their lives or doing more interesting things than trolling “pussy beggars” aka “men who like to get laid from time to time”.

MGTOW open my eyes and mind in other point with womens but i dont leave a philosophy for back to worships cunts and say Im here for satisfaced you …not me ..anmymore …I meet girls everyday for my job but one thing is just fuck and another is that girl take part of my life …sorry not anymore .

This is baloney. MGTOW’s are not quitters, MGTOW’s are men who have chosen to take charge of their own personal destiny and have chosen not to go along with the formula for life that psychotic totalitarian society tried to choose for us.
MGTOW is not a “group.” Calling MGTOW a “group” demonstrates your fundamental misunderstanding of what it is about and how MGTOW’s think and what MGTOW’s want out of life. Why couldn’t you frame your sometimes good advice in terms that do not attack men who are in the midst of figuring out who they are and what they believe and how they want to live? I would never advise anyone to surf the internet looking only for stuff that validated his preconceived notions. But I would allow that reading the perspectives of seemingly like-minded people might be cathartic and even productive.
I would even encourage an incipient MGTOW to read this article, with an open mind, for the purpose of getting what is good out of it and putting the BS in it in perspective.

I like ROK and I admire Roosh a great deal. I don’t have a problem with trying to help guys who want to pursue chicks to do so. All I’m saying is that I feel a moral obligation to advise a man to consult with a competent attorney before he does any pursuing. What’s wrong with that?

The problem is that you’re assuming that those who identify as MGTOW are, by and large, guys who are taking a hiatus to pursue other things… as opposed to guys who have given up on self improvement completely.

Negative reinforcement is an important tool that we need to use in certain cases. This is one of them.

I’m not assuming anything about other MGTOW’s. And I don’t have a problem with negative reinforcement that is effective and helpful. I am saying it’s a huge mistake for you to assume that most, or even all that many, actual MGTOW’s have given up completely on self-improvement. Perhaps your misapprehension is due to assuming that because most normal men improve themselves for the express purpose of attracting more and better women, then it must be the case that a man who has given up on women has also logically given up on himself. In my own personal case I can say that I have a much reduced incentive to improve my economic and financial condition but instead put a lot of effort and energy into improving my intellectual and spiritual condition. Could missing the difference there be part of your blind spot? Women generally care a hell of a lot more about a man’s money than they care about his mind or his soul. Or am I wrong about that?

“advertising to everyone else that you’re a MGTOW…..is petty and unproductive”

That’s the crux of the article, imo. Identifying as mgtow (or any other victim class) is for children. It’s what SJW idiots do on social media when they come out as LGBTBBQWTF or panamericansexual or whatever the newest bullshit identity politics victim label happens to be.

There isn’t a label for men who actually go their own way, they just do it. “It” being whatever it is that makes them happy. And they don’t act like women and children by seeking approval for it.

MGTOW is the ultimate avoidance weasel for men who are not prepared to learn, practice and master Game. Every single MGTOW I have seen on Youtube is an Omega/Gamma faggot who tries to gain the moral high ground whilst being a fat, socially awkward loser who isn’t prepared to improve themselves.

Even Sandman, who admittedly makes very good points in his videos comes across as effeminate and snarky. It’s an excuse for intersexual laziness.

Its like the fat feminists who disregard their role as women, shame attractive traditional women, and hate men. These MGTOW guys are usually fat, disregard their role as men (father, strong etc), shame guys who are successful, and hate on women.

Agreed. It seems to be men who have NEVER had any success with women rather tham men who have played the game and are now stepping out. This really is MGTOW’s dirty little secret whch is not being addressed. It’s encouraging losers to continue to be losers.

While I like Sandman’s videos and points, he does have “gay voice” but in hearing an interview with him some time ago, his un-processed voice does not sound so faggy. Why would anybody make themselves sound more like a homo in their own videos?

Only Western men are expected to degrade themselves and learn to be a clown and entertain women. Take a look at Asian couples: the males are dressed poorly, are shy and awkward and nerdy, never go to the gym and still have the loyalty of a beautiful woman. Only Western women care about things like if a man can dance or if he dresses well or “swagger.”

Real mgtows are usually too busy going their own way to run around on the internet telling people about how theyre going theyre own way.

The movment itself is valid in that it encourages you to live for something other than pussy but its become such a god damn haven for sniveling little faggit incels to justify doing nothing with their lives. These people literally tie their entite self worth to being “mgtow”.

I am married with kids and I consider myself MGTOW in that I have gone my own way and I am enjoying the clarity that arrives with a more realistic view of women in line with patron saint Arthur Schopenhauer: “They are sexus sequior, the inferior second sex in every respect: one should be indulgent toward their weaknesses, but to pay them honour is ridiculous beyond measure and demeans us even in their eyes.”
I still like some women and I love my wife and daughter, but I see clearly that elites have followed Adolf Hitlers “total power 101″ First you get the women, then you have the children and so follow the men”.
What’s missing from MGTOW is tge acknowledgement that some women ache for the patriarchy. We should allow them in under a new arrangement where they flow through a lattice of awakened men on the condition that they follow the new old rules.

That would not be a proper rephrase of my question. A more porper rephrasing would be “Why is my disregard for someone else’s children such a bad trait especially since I specifically set out to not have any myself”
I agree that there is some harshness in the thing you posted. I don’t wish any children die in some terrible way. However, if they do I really don’t care. Not my problem.
Now, if I felt this way about my own children or even felt this way about others children and had children myself I could see your issue. However, I don’t have children. I don’t want children and I do not particularly like them. So why is it a bad thing for me not to give a shit about them?

Secondly, this is the problem with MGTOW. They always talk about watching the world burn around them. They don’t want to improve the world around them, even in their own spheres. It’s a “me! me! me!” mentality.

Yes, we can and should be selfish when the proper time comes. However, as men, if we do not actively try to improve the world, who the hell will.

Global improvement won’t originate from MGTOW, it will be those fathers and husbands who through strong leadership commanding traditional households with nuclear families that will produce actual, tangible increases.

The pic you posted specifically points out “I have no kids, no wife…I do not care. not my circus not my monkeys”
And another guy is saying he had a vasectomy and doesn’t care about children.
The topic was “Should we be concerned with the children” which I take to mean “as people who do not have nor want any children should we care about other people children” and the resounding answer seems to be “fuck no”
I feel there are a lot of different types of MGTOW. For instance, my focus is always on me but I still enjoy sleeping with many women. I consider that MGTOW but not because I am not having sex with women, but because they are only sex. I am not having an emotional interaction with women. A different brand of MGTOW maybe.
As someone who does not want children and who has not had any children, I feel that I should not be expected to care about children. As it is I pay a bunch of taxes for stuff like schools and parks and museums for children to go to and my health insurance covers things like pediatric care and dentistry. I don’t complain. I don’t whine. I understand that I am expected to contribute financially to society and children are part of that. But don’t look to me to give a rats ass about your kids. If I wanted to care about kids I would have had some.

Your making my point clearer. I am glad these ‘men’ are not having kids, they wouldn’t care about them enough and are all unfit to be parents.

I don’t expect others to pay for another persons children and bringing in finance just conflates the issue. The real issues are sociological not economic. Armies of children are being raised as feminists. Millions of children raised by inept, narcissistic single mothers. Children will now grow up in a culture devoid of fathers, father figures and masculinity. Yes, these issues are discussed by MGTOW, but if you do not care about your neighbor’s kids or the next generation the problem will only get worse.

Don’t let it get to you, its a crutch they used because they cant handle rejection. (for the most part). A lot of men you say or have said they are MGTOW lolknee for example, they see the benefit of the perceived ideology but if MGTOW didn’t exist lolknee again as an example would very very likely be exactly who he is today. Them not caring if they don’t procreate wont doom any kids, as MGTOWs are usually also saying they don’t want to have sex either. The men that leave the mothers single or the mothers who choose to be single mothers aren’t going to be influenced by MGTOW either. Women do bad pretty well on there own. Men willing to procreate and who want to be with women, they are the ones that matter to the development of the children. lolknee as far as I can tell, where he doesn’t want kids, he doesn’t seem to be against the betterment of society to the point of it being easier to raise them… maybe Im wrong on that?

Andrew, I really wasn’t arguing against your point. I was looking for clarification because I was curious. I think we agree that men with children need to tend to those children as best they can and care for them and even, to some degree, care about children in general and the future generations. However, do you feel that men who opt out of the cycle or procreation for whatever reasons have some kind of moral requirement to care about children (I don’t mean like the vicious people on that site who want the children dead but more like just not caring about them)

I think what he’s failing to grasp is that men who don’t have or want children are not obligated to give a shit about them.
On this I’m with you, given that the only children I give a shit about are those related to my wife and myself with the thought of having to raise a child not of my DNA somewhere between fuck that and I’d like to try what you’re smoking, that sounds like some good shit.
Freaking out and worrying about how your neighbors are raising their children rather than being annoyed over it is a woman ‘s trait.

Too much concern for your neighbors children should get you put on some kind of list lol
I think that guy and I had a miscommunication maybe. I mean I am not out twirling a mustache and tying children to train tracks in my top hat and cape.
That said, one thing I feel he might take exception to is that I really am not concerned about what happens to the world, society, culture, the environment, etc. after I am dead. If he has kids who have to live in a total shit hole of a world that isn’t my issue.
That said, it’s not like I am hoping for it. I just don’t care.

ALso, bringing in finance doesn’t conflate the problem. I am directly responsible to pay money to the Federal, State and City governments for children that are not mine. My health insurance forces me to pay for pediatric care despite not having children so that there is enough money to cover the people who do.
I am not complaining about this. I think I am taxed too high, but also I think it is important to make a financial contribution to the maintenance of society. However, like with the black people in the housing projects who are in homes thanks to the money I pay in taxes, I find that many people want to have their cake and eat it to. They want to call me terrible but not giving a shit about kids, but don’t hesitate for one second to imagine that the benefits that my money affords them are some kind of god given right. Frankly, it is annoying. I think a simple thank you would suffice.

That’s pretty goddam shocking.. but not unexpected, sadly. But what these fucktards fail to realize is, we’re all paying for children who aren’t our own.. it’s called the “welfare state”. But worse still, we’ll all be paying for it thrice-fold when the feminized post-millennial children of today hit the colleges and workforce.

Even the governments and corporations said fuck the children when they started putting poisonous foods on the market, flouride in baby water, and poisoning men, women, and children with all manner of fucked up substances notably Bisphenols and pesticides.
As far as I am concerned war was declared long ago on the general public so to hell with willingly contributing to the fuck tard cluster we have going on this planet.

That video was outstanding. That video was ROK in a nut shell. The message was not a dig on the pioneers of MGTOW and the development of the philosophy and frame of MGTOW but was a progression of the concept To the ROK model of men still striving to be masculine men.
The “loser” MGTOW type is still a BLUE pill man that is aware of red pill reality. He still purposes is growth as a man to his desirability of women. Personal improvement for a man must come from the frame of a man’s desire for spiritual, and personal strength for it’s own sake.
I do like the ROK message of personal improvement and masculinity and it’s relationship to nations and politics. Roosh lately has been desiring a child. I think here the “loser” MGTOW types with surrogacy and artificial wombs have much to offer. Ironically when men arrive to this point women will be so instinctively pleasant that many will view women as goddesses once again for a repeat of the civilization cycle.

To take the red pill isn’t an easy task, it challenges everything about an individual and their life as they know it. Some will thrive with this new perspective on life, while others will fall into a cycle of despair.

What these men need is strong leadership and purpose to guide them out of the abyss. We need to be those leaders, we need to create that purpose..

You have all these men just drifting around with no purpose, it’s an absolute waste. They have already accepted the reality of the situation, now it’s a matter of giving them purpose and leading them in burning this rot to the ground.

Those of us with the capacity, we have a responsibility to lead and mentor other men. That young man in your workplace or neighbourhood who seems lost and without a path, he needs to be led. Strike up a conversation, find some common ground and lead. I can assure you that these men will follow, most are wandering aimlessly looking for a leader.

America chooses to let its domestic talent lie fallow. It has no need to cultivate domestic talent: it can just rely on importing Chinese and Indian engineers and scientists. We have no need to improve our own public school system since the Chinese and Indian K-12 is so superior.

Our K-12 is a giant holding pen or daycare center.

I knew a lot of gifted students as a child and they are all woefully underemployed or employed below their station: car salesman, grocery packer, waiter, etc.

This would require empathy which I suspect many in this world are sorely lacking.
On the other hand most guys are straight up white knight lemmings who ain’t got time for shit like thinking before they act.

Your understanding of mgtow is the complete opposite of the reality. Mgtow is about men’s rights and self knowledge of his life situation. Mgtow can have sex, stay celibate, get married or do whatever he wants. It’s about not lying to yourself and getting taken advantage of by gynocentric society. Most men who are with women are just tolerating the woman’s behavior and going along with it like a little slave boy.. mgtow fully supports the fuck and dump lifestyle of the pua but draws the line at making ones entire life about fucking girls. It’s absolutely all about men improving themself so the fact you said it isn’t about that is totally backwards.. I’m going to have to call the writer of this article a blue piller because it’s clear they don’t know anything about mgtow other than the way the concepts affect their blue pill mentality of never questioning their own worldview. WHAT!? you mean men are doing anything other than trying to be with a woman!? WHAWHAWHA!? They even say go travel the world to find the right one but if they knew anything about mgtow they’d know that men from all over the world have come together and declared they are all the same all around the world. The ones who come into contact with Western society anyway. I have to laugh at the muslims in America because they think they are sneaking around behind our backs but their women are just being slowly poisoned by our culture.. mgtow is all about self awareness and that your higher self actualization is more important than chaining yourself to a woman.. mgtow out..

So what’s the problem then? You’re mgtow or? Do you know what it means? It means men going their own way.. in other words being a master of his own life. As i said, this article is just a really bad misunderstanding of what mgtow is. And i was citing from the article so I don’t know how you can say you’ve never seen anyone talk like that as I was quoting this very article..

This article makes great points. However, I’m beginning to notice the toxic negativity infecting us at ROK too. I’m seeing more and more comments that basically say “The world is only going to get shittier and your career is going to suck too because the workforce of the West is infected with feminism. So you might as well just kill yourself now because the only thing you can look forward to in life is vapid eastern pussy. Oh woe is me!” I think we’re letting leftist hatred get to us.

Yes, you do. That is why I have been following you for the last three years. But, let me tell you something. I did not like one of your answers in the AMA video… Roosh, we men MUST reconquer academia. Our declining situation is due to having lost it some decades ago. It is the main politics plaza, together with media. Big changes in human history have never come from “below”, always from “above”. Lets get those campus administrations under our feet!

From the major MGTOW channels I’ve seen on Youtube (Sandman etc) it seems a lot of these guys have been involved with major personality disorder females which has completely fried their brains and knocked their necks in as us British say. I’m not a firm believer in extreme MGTOW ideology but I think some sympathy may be in order for these guys who have been to hell and back with these crazy bitches.

To me, MGTOW means men doing whatever they want, whenever they want, with whoever they want, and not letting other people dictate how they should lead their lives, while at the same time constantly focusing on self-improvement. But apparently it’s just a group of losers that gave up on life.

MGTOW was and is a necessary progression for a blue pill man’s journey to red pill truth. The end is as ROK tries to convey a masculine man with self improvements in mind body and spirit. The man at the other end is a red pill christian man with the strength to tell Eve no.

MGTOW: The primary way with which women destroy men’s lives is through alimony, asset division child support and false accusations. How do you protect yourself? Just don’t give women these powers to destroy your life. It’s that simple.

Those that hate MRAs and MGTOW will write in favor of gynocentrism every time – hence my GQ reference. Why do they write against MRAs and MGTOW and in favor of gynocentrism? I’ll let you figure that out.

It’s curious that term MGTOW, as coined by Tim Patten before any of the current crop of bitter Millennials had even been born, has more in common with the male self-improvement philosophy of ROK than the anti-relationship movement as it appears today. Indeed, a couple of years ago when Paul Elam gently reminded the manosphere of that fact (coining his own term “PIGTOW” for those embittered woman haters as described in this article), it caused much wailing and gnashing of teeth, AVFM’s readership crashed as MGTOWs took their bat&ball and went home, Elam became Enemy #1, and a whole new generation of angry Incels was born.

For a good illustration of the vitriolic echo chamber which is MGTOW today, a visit to the comments section of John Hembling’s or (in the height of irony) Diana Davidson’s youtube channels is illuminating.

Warning – what follows is well beyond the attention span of RoK readers:

The EU bureaucracy is now threatening a hiring freeze against men if women don’t reach 40% of all middle, upper, and executive staff in government agencies. Where’s the mandatory 40% deployment of women to the front lines and the freeze on male deployment until women’s battle deaths match men’s?

Let’s have reparations for men’s deaths and ban men from front line combat until women experience the millions of battle deaths that men suffered throughout history. This is blatant male discrimination and government enforced male disposability. It’s right out there in the open. There’s no attempt to hide male hatred. Not even carefully worded manipulation. And it’s all being promoted under the guise of equality – the man hating feminist’s supposed god.

Society thrives off of male disposability and always has. Why aren’t men fighting back? They’re brainwashed from birth to believe that men are inherently bad and women are inherently good – so men should bear the worst that society has to offer.

Schools and universities are now nothing more than Marxist mass production facilities that create white hating, man hating Nazis. The government writes laws and policies that mandate accepted speech and destroy those that dare to dissent – preventing anyone from getting jobs in these deeply misandric, deeply anti-white Marxist training facilities who don’t pledge loyalty to the dear leader and liberalism.

The state and federal governments support and further anti-white, anti-male policies and laws. Why? The DNC said it best in the latest Wiki Leaks leak. The goal is to gain power and support from non-whites. It’s no secret the left is made up nearly entirely of non-whites, feminists, single women and successfully brainwashed white male Marxists. Liberals are literally a white hating, man hating party of bigots and racists.

The major goal of the left is to mass import as many foreigners as possible to destroy capitalism and create their utopian socialist Hades hole.

As you might have guessed, I’m a white male. I’m also a member of the ‘oppressive patriarchy’ feminists most love to hate. Turns out the patriarchy are the only rational men left alive – so I’m now attending the meetings.

Was reading a post on a feminist site the other day with a title that read, “Does Misandry Exist?” I had to really laugh at the comments by feminists. One posted that she wasn’t comfortable with the word misandry because it implied that men suffered as much as women through institutionalized misogyny. Hilarious.

Feminists didn’t demand equality with men until men made it safe for them to have equality with men. Feminists were given their equality on a silver platter by men when they demanded it. They didn’t fight and die for their rights the way men did. Instead, they simply demanded their rights as a result of men’s deaths. That’s because feminists want equality without the expectation of responsibility. They want men to fight and die for female privilege.

Institutionalized misogyny? Men get far harsher sentences for the same crimes and that’s institutionalized misogyny? The vast majority of alimony, asset division and child support goes from men to women and that’s institutionalized misogyny? The male-only draft is institutionalized misogyny? That men suffer like 99% of war and workplace deaths is institutionalized misogyny? That the bulk of state and federal spending on health, education and welfare goes to women – even though men pay the majority of taxes – is institutionalized misogyny? That men are the majority of suicides is institutionalized misogyny? The list goes on and on and on. Isn’t this really institutionalized misandry? Aren’t these all really examples of female privilege?

Feminists are feverishly working to remove men’s rights to presumption of innocence and due process in sexual assault/rape cases. They claim the conviction rates are too low and want to move from a ‘reasonable doubt’ standard to a ‘preponderance of evidence’ standard because it will be much easier for men to be convicted and imprisoned following false accusations regardless of contravening evidence in the accused man’s defense. If you followed the Ghomeshi trial in Canada, it was found that the women accusing Ghomeshi of rape colluded, hid evidence that would exonerate him and lied under oath. Feminists were furious when Ghomeshi was acquitted claiming that women should just be believed and that it’s common for women to lie following rape/sexual assault – and THAT THEIR LIES SHOULDN’T BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT!

In Canada, they want to establish courts specifically for sexual assault/rape with ‘specially trained’ judges and a preponderance of evidence standard. To feminists, it’s better that 10 innocent men go to prison than 1 man escaping justice. Now that is man hate personified. What’s terrifying is the feminists already have this standard on college campuses under the deeply minsandric law called ‘affirmative consent’.

After reading a lot of feminist garbage, I’ve found that mostly what they do is cherry pick statistics or just create outright fraudulent statistics to further their true goal – which is the destruction of men. The most disastrous thing feminists do in their own defense is to point to the dictionary definition of feminism as proof that they don’t hate men – and then go on to promote laws and policies that further vilify and destroy men’s lives. Thankfully, men are waking up.

Feminism is a nation destroyer. Hundreds of thousands of men’s lives get destroyed every year, in the US alone, through parental alienation, divorce, asset division, child support and false accusations – and yet men continue to give women life destroying power over their lives. It’s nuts! It’s no different than handing lawyers and women your money and smiling afterwards over your own self-sacrifice – while putting a gun to your own head! Crazy! The simple solution? Stop giving women and the government life destroying power over your life. Simply refuse to engage in what could result in your own life destruction. It’s all so simple – yet marriage for men is promoted as the end all – be all. Wonder why. No real surprise. You can’t con people into their own destruction without blatant lies, illusions and enchantments. The fact of the matter is marriage in many, many cases destroys men’s lives.

The real deal breaker is coming via the end of outsourcing of birth to the breeder nations upon which Westernized nations now so rely (India, the African Continent, South America, the Middle East, etc). The big secret of mass immigration is that – instead of it being based upon the acceptance of downtrodden refugees – what’s really happening is a frantic outsourcing of birth to patriarchal nations. Hilarious. That’s amazing – because as feminism spreads – the outsourcing of birth will be cut off – followed by decreasing populations and economic collapse. Just look at Japan. They lost a million in population over the past few short years. All of the aforementioned breeder nations are battling lower marriage and birth rates as well – all easily attributed to the growing power of feminism in their own countries. Some claim this problem is the result of a bad economy – yet marriage rates and birth rates have been dropping in Westernized nations for the past several decades – in good economies, too.

If one believes that the best one can do is to promote policies and laws that benefit women only – in the here and now – then feminism is the gold standard. The illusions and enchantments promoted in feminist favor aren’t true. Feminists aren’t after equality – they’re out to destroy men. The best men can do is deny feminist’s and white knight’s punishment – for being men – through the state and federal laws that force wealth and power from men to women. There’s no better choice. Simply cut off the forced wealth and power transfer. It’s so simple.

Feminists walked away from the table long ago – and the majority of women either remained silent or openly supported their purposeful destruction of men. Men are still sitting at the negotiation table foolishly expecting more illusions and enchantments – instead of the hard, cold truth. Men’s demise – all throughout time – is their naivete with regard to cultural misandry and male disposability.

All of the above points will never be raised in the mainstream media. Why? Because our entire system is built around male disposability and deeply embedded cultural misandry. Men have become so disposable – few even think about it – including white knights. If this fact becomes widely known – it all comes tumbling down – hence the mainstream media’s and feminist’s hatred of MRAs and MGTOWs. Feminists only bring up men’s issues in an effort to implement new anti-male laws and policies – and the state and federal government always follows suit. Why? To maintain their own power through genuflecting to the gynocracy. Again – to save yourself – all you need do is to not play their game. It’s really that simple – yet tragically difficult to accept – at least for men.

Feminists are demanding quotas for women in the most highly paid, most prestigious positions in the EU – but not surprisingly – there’s no demand that women suffer at least half of war deaths and casualties for women. Feminists are double standard loving hypocrites. They literally thrive in society off of their own psychopathy and man hate. It’s their ‘juice’ in life. Man hate is their motivation. What will feminists say in response? “But but the dictionary definition of feminism says all they want is equality.” That’s the biggest line of BS ever sold.

Just stop being women’s puppets and you’ll be a lot better off in the long run.

I hope this new law will be imposed by the EU. This law and many more like it. I hope this will happen fast, so that many more men will wake up and realise in which anti-male societies we live in and will make their opinions heard!

I just wished all men would read Esther Vilar’s book “The Manipulated Man”.
A timeless classic!

Oh – you don’t have to worry about anti-male laws and policies being implemented more and more. Feminists and white knights are just getting started. Society cannot survive without male disposability. The head of the RoK got a good taste of it just recently.

Vilar’s book opened my eyes like no other. That was the beginning of the end of my slavery to the gynocracy – which in hindsight, is probably why so many women hated her to death. Vilar gave away the secrets to women’s usury of men. She gave away women’s victimhood – the primary means with which women profit from their soon to be true victims. Oh – the irony.

I don’t understand your hating on ROK readers.. most articles on this site are almost 100% in alignment with what you just wrote.

OTOH you talk about population growth being “outsourced” to 3rd world countries, and feminism is to blame for the precipitous drop in birth rate in the West. Sorry, but isn’t MGTOW an extension of that philosophy?

You just don’t get MGTOW – and that’s why you equate it to feminism. MGTOW simply want men to understand how anti-male things are and the simple solution – don’t engage. You want MGTOW to ‘man up’ and join in the male life destruction. Ain’t going to happen.

I wrote what I did because I’m sure that that’s how things will end – not because I want to join in the gynocentric destruction of men or civilization. You seem to think that men should all keep playing women’s games – hence your hatred of MRAs and MGTOW.

The NAWL (national association of women lawyers) created no fault divorce to guarantee that women could dispose of their husbands while retaining their X – husbands current and future income and assets – all while cheating with the pool boy. NAWL still brags about it to this day.

MGTOW never want to go back to the days the patriarchy ruled supreme. Why? Because despite what feminists told you – back then – men were disposable.

How best to fight back? Simply remove the power of the beast that beats you. It’s that simple – yet so hard to understand for white knights. The biggest white knight of them all, Ronald Reagan, signed NAWLs no-fault divorce into law in CA – and set alight mass divorce and the destruction of men (forced wealth and power transfer from men to women through divorce). If you don’t get it – you just don’t get it.

Dude, climb off that soapbox. I don’t hate MGTOWs or MRAs or anyone. In fact it’s funny you should lump “MGTOW” and “MRA” in the same sentence.. over the past couple of years I’ve seen so much hatred and vitriol leveled against MRAs by MGTOWs, it’d make David Futrelle proud. A trip to youtube channels like Johntheother, where they literally think MRAs are worse than male feminists, is instructive. On the part of MRAs, head over to AVFM and have a read of Tim Patten’s scathing critique of the modern MGTOW movement. If readers here are guilty of “hating” MGTOWs and MRAs, we find ourselves in good company.

For me, as a guy in a LTR, I always saw MGTOW as a useful tool for men’s rights and male emancipation (for want of a better word).. I would even talk to young single guys and direct them to check out MGTOW for their own education. But I don’t do that any more, because frankly most MGTOW channels have become an embarrassment. I got sick and tired of being called a “dumb pussy-begging beta” and told “you deserve to get raped in divorce court” in channels and forums, for the crime of having a partner.. even though at the time I respected and supported the MGTOW position. Like I said, embarrassing.

But in the end, even though MGTOWs, MRA and Red-pillers sit at opposite ends of the spectrum hurling abuse at each other, there’s a shitload more overlap in their belief systems than they care to admit. I can’t help thinking much of the shit-flinging is a gross exercise in #projection that’d make Tumblr feminists proud.

For one thing, we all want a change in the system where males are actually respected and needed again by society, and not considered useless running jokes. We also want to see an end to PC, SJW and the female elitist movement known as “feminism”. The difference is, MGTOWs are happy to see the world collapse and burn in its own putridness, and a new one to rise out.. whereas non-MGTOWs realize that, short of a meteorite strike, the chances of this happening are exactly zero, so better to focus on self-improvement and learning human nature to allow one to successfully navigate the world we’ve been dumped in.

I mean, even if the MGTOW apocalypse does come to pass, it won’t happen for a very long time. The “man desert” and “marriage strike” are mere blips on the radar. In the meantime, unless you live alone in an igloo and work on an oil platform, thinking you can get by without interacting with females at all is foolishness.. and with affirmative action it’s only gonna get worse. Far better to learn the true nature of women (and men for that matter) and rig the game in your favor, rather than sticking your fingers in your ears, to facilitate your ever-growing professional and personal dealings with the “fairer” sex.

The fact that you referred to your bitch as a partner makes it impossible to take anything else you wrote seriously because it means that you are her bitch in reality. Equality is a myth invented by the SJW’s you claim to want to get rid of

We had protestors at our local courthouse protesting corrupt family courts and main stream media were nowhere to be seen. Their time will come no matter how many militarized forces they hide behind or how much technology they put between the people and themselves.

Few men have the balls to walk away and face the shame and ridicule. It’s a very powerful force, being told by the herd that you JUST AIN’T COOL. Herd. You’re a fucking herd. Zero fucks given. MGTOW is amazing. I see women as they really are: Pathetic weak parasites.

After a divorce and seeing the quality of women online and off I would say MGTOW is something I would buy stock in if I could. This movement is going to be real big in the coming years. You have a whole generation of men in the 80% who will be more exposed to this type of material and I believe you will see a major societal change which is just in the beginnings. Without decent women, men will not be driven of levels of the past to acquire wealth for western women or pay for their bastard children with higher taxes. This will not end well in western nations and you will see poverty rise dramatically in the white communities.

Men can go on “strike” if they want to and think it will influence female behavior. The problem though is the herd psychology. Are there enough men who will, either organized or un-organized, engage in a pattern of behavior that will ultimately result in part of the herd altering their pattern of behavior to gain the desired results. The answer is most likely NO.

Out of the population of men probably only around 30% are Alpha males whether natural or learned behavior. That means you still have 70% that are Betas who, absent the scorned Beta, probably not fully partake in a real male strike. They will eventually give into a woman’s siren song, give her babies, and dutifully mail the alimony check every month.

Out of the Alpha population, those guys are going to give up the cock carousel that easily. Especially if a significant portion of men are taken out of the sexual marketplace due to the strike. Being a “scab” during the strike is going to mean years of endless pussy, literally. If say even 30% of the Alpha male population removes themselves voluntarily from the sexual marketplace the remaining Alpha males are literally going to have their phones exploding with texts enough to get laid twice a day if they care to put in the game required to do so.

The “strike” option is simply a dead end road. If men really want to change female behavior they have to do so through the levers of legitimate powers of the sovereign. That means real equality laws, ending “sexual harassment” as a regulatory framework, banning gender preferences, outlawing abortion, and repealing any other kind of “women’s issue” type law. Once the playing field is back to its natural state of nature true change will start to happen. It will take 25-50 years but it will eventually happen.

Great points. You do know that currently 70 percent of 24-34 men are unmarried. I am not for sure but I believe that statistic was taken in 2011. How long before that is 90 percent? I have no idea how this is all going to work out but gov will be raising all kinds of taxes to pay for services for single mothers and jails for deadbeat dads. We are not technically a socialist nation but this could change everything. I married a foreigner and would recommend that for any of the young ones who want to start a family but the laws, culture etc.. are now a uphill battle like we have never seen. I agree for Alphas who make bank they have the pick of litter and it has always been that way. The question though is how good is the litter these days? I do not blame these MGTOWs for just doing their own thing. If I had a do over I would of lived in non feminized country. Maybe I still will in my late 50s. I think the optimal solution is keep a open mind to a decent woman but with all the information out there is to be very cautious and enjoy your ride rich, poor or going solo.

I had honestly never heard of MGTOW until a few days ago, and I’m over 55. I’ve been living it for well over a decade without even knowing I was part if a movement.

It sounds suspiciously like those drum-beating Neanderthals that were all the rage years ago, gathering the woods and bleating about their masculinity. Reminds me of gatherings of managers & CEOs, sitting around telling each other how gosh-darnit important they all were. Compensating for something, I’m sure.

Jeezuz, guys, get a life…

Live your life on your own terms and refuse to be classified. If you want to be in a relationship or just get laid, then do it. If not, then do that.

Looks like MGTOW has been hijacked by ideologues. I, for one, want no part of it. I’ll live my life without the label thankyewverymuch.

I think there is more to this constant MGTOW bashing here on R.O.K than many care to admit. Less competition means more pussy for you, so what’s not to like? I think the crux of the problem lies in that some of you are just scared you might have more in common with MGTOW:s and their philosophy than you care to admit.

Obviously it torments you deeply to be put in the same box as some useless piece of shit male who can’t even get pussy even if he wanted to. That’s why you engage in this pretence of vehement resistance by disassociation. So what if some MGTOW:s are pathetic, you don’t distance yourselfs from being men just because some guys fail at being men, do you? Seriously, man up and don’t give any shits about what other people think about you.

I actually would consider myself to be MGTOW. But that being said, I also do not conform to all beliefs held by them, especially not those who use the philosophy as an excuse for their inability to be men.

Procreation is key in animals, however in humans the discoverys and contributions of individuals outweigh the benefits of spreading ones genes. Therfore saying that MGTOW:s are failing in life is not really accurate.

The first thing I will tell a man is to live his life as he sees fit. That said, if you are an intelligent white man you have a duty to procreate, and raise your children accordingly, unless you can offer something else of high value to society. If you want to do something else though, that is by far your call living in what we still like to say is a “free” society. I don’t judge a man by his ultimate decision. I would just advise him the best course of action.

LOL, No. Men are not duty bound to do anything. Having kids in this society is simply making you a cog in the system. Because there will be a woman involved in procreating and she has her first love, the State, making sure that you are a financial battery for her emotional vibrator. So with women and the State both out to enslave men to their desires, many men are simply refusing to offer up their neck to the slave collar.

I went to a MGTOW “conference” (it was really just a bunch of guys in the same hotel) back in the late 90’s. We are talking about MGTOW was still on news groups and some loose networks had newsletters that would get mailed to your physical address. Back then it was a bunch of guys in their 20’s and 30’s who usually had been burned by the system. A bad breakup or divorce was the almost universal story. Their motto was “fuck women” and if you had gone through a similar experience you probably thought the same at that time.

The guys looked cool at the time too because they were doing manly things. A lot of guys rode motorcycles, there were a bunch of guys in the trades, and they gave zero shits about women or marriage. These were guys through and through. Some ran a good game too in the hotel bar, but mostly it was just a bunch of guys being guys. No one really cared about getting laid or women. At most it was a secondary goal.

It was a good time for that era. I found game though and went an amateur-ish PUA route before The Game was even published. (That too was just news groups at the time). I hooked up with some MGTOW types around 2005-06 after a bad breakup and saw how much that movement had changed. No longer was it badass guys in their 20’s and 30’s giving zero fucks about women or a “traditional” lifestyle. They were now in their 40’s mostly and just bitter. They still had the “fuck women” motto but in a bad way. Sort of like how a feminist will hate men.

No longer was it men bucking the system, telling women who had societal expectations of men to go screw themselves, and riding a Harley into the night. It was just a bunch of bitter men who were either drunks, addicted to telling other men how much women sucked, or did hard core drugs. Most had lost good paying jobs to their addiction also. It was really sad.

There is a reason why in civilized society, over literally centuries, most men eventually wife up and have children. Men left to their own devices usually just spiral into destructive patterns. Now I am not advocating a “traditional” lifestyle and would tell a man in his 20’s or early 30’s to do his own thing, but if you eventually end up married with kids that is sort of the natural progression of things. Certainly doesn’t mean there can’t be exceptions to the rule in that there are, historically, plenty of successful bachelors. But MGTOW is a dead end road. If you are tempted by that lifestyle be very wary of entering into it. Make your own decisions on how you live life though, just do so with some good knowledge on the path you are taking.

Having the responsibility of a family definitely forces you to step up. It’s a fact many great men of the world.. Newton, Einstein, Jesus.. were single, and it’s doubtful that a man can achieved all they did with the responsibility of a family around his neck. But he has to be absolutely fucking committed to his goal, lest he devolves into drinking bourbon and reaching level-90 grand master wizard all night.

That was the problem with MGTOW c. 2005. They were men with no goals other then “fuck the system”. They were not building businesses, writing novels, or some other lofty goal. They were just men without a mission. Most were drunks and/or drug users. In absence of a higher goal that is what men seem to default to in life.

But, again, if hey that is the way you want to live more power to you. Just be fully aware of the decision you are making.

The highest goal would be to get back out into space but our government has that one monopolized at the moment so really all that is left is fucking and consumption on an endless technologically enforced hamster wheel run by the hamsters themselves literally and figuratively.

Bar that you can disappear to the often mentioned 2nd, and 3rd world shit holes but why should we hide like roaches.

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