He's culpable. He gets to retire - I wonder how the folks who were molested, who can't retire from that memory, feel about that. He had the authority to clean house - he didn't. He can burn with the rest of the pedophile priests.

Cluckity:He's spending his final days influencing the people who will select the next pope, and he'll stay on as advisor.

Seems like the closest thing a 'celibate' guy could do to creating a dynasty. This is the way rich old dudes insure their sons and daughters continue to lead companies.

Funny thing... back in the olden days popes used to appoint their nephews as cardinals and try and set them up to succeed them - because it was the closest they could manage to hereditary succession. The Latin for nephew is "nepos"; no prizes for guessing what English word derives from this practice.

Yes, my bad... got my terms mixed up, I know what both mean. I also understand and know the history of the church when it comes to ordaining women. My point is I can't see the vatican making an infallible statement about it because it has more to do with what we do than the fundamental theology of our church. The Assumption of Mary is a totally different level and type of theology if we want to draw comparisons. I can see how it could be viewed from other angles, but I don't but the rumor that JPII was going to make that statement Ex Cathedra. Statements condemning the ordination of women have been taught infallibly by ordinary and universal magisterium, but all that really means is when the Church makes statements about the ordination of women they are truthfully confirming the belief of the church, not that the belief is perfect and can't possibly be wrong. Its more a statement that its not open for discussion at this time or in the foreseeable future.

Also, there have been papers published by Church historians attempting to find Ex Cathedra statements, and it turns out that there are likely several, the Immaculate Conception being one of them. There is no standard published list of infallible statements.

foxy_canuck:Also, the infallible thing is never used on moral issues, so a declaration about the ordination of women priests would have never happened. It is meant as a definitive theological statement about the current state of beliefs within the church. When the church declared the Immaculate Conception of Mary from the seat of Peter it meant that this is a definitive belief of the church, not that it is impossible to be wrong.

1. The ordination of women isn't (to traditional Catholic eyes) a moral issue, it's a sacramental one. It's answering the question "Is the sacrament of Holy Orders valid when performed on a woman?"

Normal teaching to that question is an unambiguous No. There is ample historic precedent that in the first millennium of Christianity that the Holy Orders of Deaconate were granted, but none about the Priesthood or Episcopate. (Despite the historic evidence, the Church still does not support this, because 1000 years of tradition saying to never do it, and 500 years before that of it slowly falling out of fashion outweighs the tradition of 500 years beforehand).

Also, the sole use of Papal Infallibility to date was not about the Immaculate Conception, it was to enshrine the Assumption of Mary into Catholic Dogma.

Immaculate Conception is the idea that Mary was born without Original Sin, and thus Jesus was born without Original Sin.

The Assumption of Mary says that at the end of her life, Mary was taken body and soul into heaven, and did not leave behind a mortal body.

Its interesting seeing people's reactions here. You can tell who has their main opinion of Benedict based on the media and internet memes. I've heard/seen a lot of folks expressing that they are glad he's going, he's too conservative, and that they hope someone like JPII is the next pope. The thing is, Benedict was elected Pope in large part because he is a brilliant writer. JPII said a lot of really awesome things, and one of Benedict's main jobs as Pope was to write that wisdom into letters. If you actually read his homilies, addresses, and letters, a huge portion of what he said was hopeful, inclusive, uplifting, and tremendously loving. Among Catholics who actually read and listen to what he says outside of media clips and sound bites, Benedict as almost as beloved as JPII was. On the other side of the coin, JPII was very conservative (actually, the correct term is orthodox, understanding and following the teachings of the church on moral and liturgical issues). He just didn't seem that way to someone who only watched him a little when the media made him look good because he loved the energy young people bring to the church. While JPII was charismatic in his words and audiences, Benedict captured incredible amounts of that charisma in a lot of his writings.

What will be interesting won't be the theology of the next Pope, it will be consistent with the last two (who were very consistent with each other), it will be what kind of personality the conclave chooses.

Also, the infallible thing is never used on moral issues, so a declaration about the ordination of women priests would have never happened. It is meant as a definitive theological statement about the current state of beliefs within the church. When the church declared the Immaculate Conception of Mary from the seat of Peter it meant that this is a definitive belief of the church, not that it is impossible to be wrong.

cynicalbastard:Well, yeah, a Pope could technically say "Wimmen can't ever become Priests", and be infallible, but a future pope could say "But now they can, and he was infallibly right only at the time he said it, but my infallibility goes now." Kinda like colored folks and the Mormon leaders.

For an eternal, omnipotent being, I'm not even about these little things but even between the differences in the Old and New Testament, God seems to change his mind about some fundamental things an awful lot. I get glared at by the bartender when I say, "I'm sorry, make that a double". And rightfully so. And I'm just ordering a drink, not running a multiverse.

JackieRabbit:SwiftFox: When someone states that they have to be retired from being infallible, that's that. "Oh no, Your Holiness! You're wrong and infallible!"

Actually, Catholic dogma states that the pope is only infallible when he decrees from the throne of St. Peter. A little know fact, even among Catholics.

Yup, and that's only ever been explicitly invoked once, to establish the dogma of the Assumption of Mary.

In other words, the only time

There are a lot of rumors that John Paul II was going to invoke Infallibility to say that women cannot ever be ordained to any holy order, ever, but his advisors talked him out of it saying that it wouldn't change anything and would just create scandal and controversy and drive people from the church.

. . .the fact that it's well established that women were ordained to the Diaconate from antiquity until the 12th century aside.

If I was him, I think I'd be laughing all the way home and glad to be the fark out of there.

REALLY liked him and sorry to see him go..they will probably elect some black dude the next pope who will promptly fly to the USA, hob nob with our englorious leader and declare that catholics love baptists or some such nonsense