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Re: Rumor? California will require migratory beekeepers to use Cordovan

Originally Posted by AmericasBeekeeper

FABIS and USDA-ID that are fairly quick and accurate.

FABIS accurate? Since when? Guzman-Novoa is one of the biggest critics of using morphometric measurements. DuPraw (1965) according to Ruttner (1975), was unable to delimit scutellata from capensis by wing venation (Hive and Honey Bee 1992 pg. 36).

"When FABIS was being written, it carried a disclaimer that if the bees in other areas were different then the bees in the FABIS survey or another area, then different standards were to be developed and used." - Dee Lusby.

Re: Rumor? California will require migratory beekeepers to use Cordovan

FABIS does not measure wing venation. USDA-ID does cubital index of the wing venation but does not give it much weight. The first visible sternite carries much more weight. For an experienced tech there is enough data to determine managed from feral colonies, and possibly sub-species, though that is not the purpose of USDA-ID. Bee morphometrics has come a long way since 1965, 1975, or 1992. There are hundreds of thousands of DNA validated samples in the database now. Capensis from Scutellata is a far more challenging analysis and fortunately not pertinent in America yet. We are curently working on research to just that end. DR. Jamie Ellis, who completed his doctorate on Scutella in South Africa many years ago, returned there a couple of months ago with my co-worker for updated morphometric research. The University of Florida has the rapid DNA analysis to validate morphometrics.
I am not at liberty to share the name of the state near you that is requiring sub-species certification now. It is creating a lot of work for our tech, Kelly.

Re: Rumor? California will require migratory beekeepers to use Cordovan

AmericanBK - Just a dumb question, but wouldn't morphometrics have some issues with all the cross breeding going on. Russians, AHB, Cordovans, Italians, germans, beeweaver, and Romulans, all mixing with feral bees at any time. Heck, you could have a cordovan hive and a queen cell with AHB gene in it that is mean has heck. It gets passed through check stations and bingo the evil one emerges.

I hope they have some significant structural measurements to go on... but maybe a color shift is enough to go on, but darn, that sure blows any scientific rigor out the door IMHO But I is the village idiot. But I honestly thought that only the Xercus group was the only folks in the zoological world that were still using color patterns for identification.

Going back under my rock, but I remember the c. rufus fight well, know folks with scars from the earliest DNA fight. Even with genetics they were dealing with muddy water. I pity the folks in this fight. Sounds like someone that is a breeder knows someone that needed election funds.

Re: Rumor? California will require migratory beekeepers to use Cordovan

Hybridization does not hinder identification with USDA-ID. It does present a challenge during FABIS with some smaller bees like Egyptian and possibly German. Then we follow-up with USDA-ID and DNA if USDA-ID is inconclusive. The database in USDA-ID compared nearly 100,000 USDA-ID identifications with DNA results. It is very accurate and can even identify feral bees from managed for an experienced tech.

Re: Rumor? California will require migratory beekeepers to use Cordovan

Originally Posted by AmericasBeekeeper

Hybridization does not hinder identification with USDA-ID. It does present a challenge during FABIS with some smaller bees like Egyptian and possibly German. Then we follow-up with USDA-ID and DNA if USDA-ID is inconclusive. The database in USDA-ID compared nearly 100,000 USDA-ID identifications with DNA results. It is very accurate and can even identify feral bees from managed for an experienced tech.

Can you elaborate on the identifying characteristics that would be different between feral and managed bees?