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Evening TFP.......all good here and no probs......hope you are well to and all went well with the other thing.....

Well hopefully we will find out more after the second pre inquest hearing.....

Second Hillsborough hearing this week

3rd Jun 2013 - Latest News

The Hillsborough families will learn more details regarding the fresh inquests into the deaths of the 96 people who lost their lives at the disaster at a second preliminary hearing on Wednesday, June 5.

Coroner Lord Justice Goldring announced last month that the new inquests - ordered following the report published by the Hillsborough Independent Panel in September 2012 - will be held in the North West and take place next year.

Families and campaigners will now travel to London later this week for a second hearing, during which the coroner will further outline the scope of his investigation and could potentially reveal the precise location and timing of the inquests.

The original inquest verdicts into the tragedy, which occurred on April 15, 1989 at the Hillsborough Stadium, were quashed by Attorney General Dominic Grieve in December of last year.

Separate investigations by the Independent Police Complaints Commission and Jon Stoddart, former Durham Chief Constable, into the police response and claims of a subsequent cover-up are also ongoing.

Those unable to attend the hearing in London will have the opportunity to watch proceedings via a live video link-up hosted at Liverpool Crown Court.

Dan Kay: We're underway in Holborn - Lord Justice Goldring has introduced himself to the court and Christina Lambert QC is setting out the agenda for today, beginning with the engagement of Article 2 of the European Constitution of Human Rights, 'the right to life'.

Update from Dan Kay: Had quick chat with Steve Kelly from the HJC outside who said "We're aware that much of today will be taken up with legal arguments but are hoping to maybe get a clearer idea of where the inquests will be. We're reasonably satisfied with how things are going but would like to hear more about the IPCC and Stoddart investigations."

From BBC Merseyside on Twitter: The problems at Hillsborough were anticipated. Michael Mansfield QC wants safety at other grounds to be considered

Update from Steve Graves: Mr Mansfield says circumstances under which blood alcohol levels were taken should come within scope of inquest

Latest update from Dan Kay: Michael Mansfield QC makes reference to the famous 'White Horse' Cup Final of 1923 (the first ever to be played at Wembley, between Bolton and West Ham) in the context of how overcrowding has always been a potential issue at football matches. Also mentions Lord Justice Popplewell's inquiry into the Bradford fire that underlined where the responsibility for crowd management and safety should lie

Text of Article 2 of the European Constitution of Human Rights, 'the right to life', discussed earlier:

1. Everyone’s right to life shall be protected by law. No one shall be deprived of his life intentionally save in the execution of a sentence of a court following his conviction of a crime for which this penalty is provided by law.

2. Deprivation of life shall not be regarded as inflicted in contravention of this Article when it results from the use of force which is no more than absolutely necessary:

(a) in defence of any person from unlawful violence;

(b) in order to effect a lawful arrest or to prevent the escape of a person lawfully detained;

(c) in action lawfully taken for the purpose of quelling a riot or insurrection.

Lord Goldring asking each of the legal representatives if they have anything to add to the initial discussions...

CPS, IPCC, South Yorkshire Police and many others say no

From Dan Kay: Lord Goldring, to a murmur of laughter in the court, turns it around and asks if there is anyone who does want to add anything

Coroner rules that inquests, when they take place, will be heard before a jury. "There plainly ought to be a jury" says LJ Goldring

Lord Goldring rules that Article two of European Human Rights act plainly does apply and so a jury will be used and in his view is mandatory

Update from Dan Kay: Christina Lambert QC stresses that, despite the work done by the HIP, there is much investigative work still to be done and the amount of work involved should not be underestimated. There are many witnesses who may need to be interviewed, some of them under caution.

Latest from Steve Graves: Counsel to the inquests Christina Lambert submits coroner should use resources of John Stoddart investigation, not own investigating team

From Dan Kay in London: Written archive of material relating to inquests will be held in same place in Warrington as IPCC archive and will include material in addition to what the HIP went through

Dan Kay: Ms Lambert mentions how some families have been upset by how the Family Liason officers have been going about their work in an 'intrusive and unwelcome' manner

Michael Mansfield says people were 'doorstepped' by officers from investigating team. Says "echoes of the past rang through the streets."

From Dan Kay: Mansfield, in arguing for an independent inquiry team for the inquests to be set up by Lord Goldring: Since last September, what serious practical steps have been taken to really move things forward? Delay has bedevilled the whole history of this matter

Dan Kay: Goldring responds by asking Mansfield for his help and advice as to how this could practically be achieved, saying 'the scale of this operation is perhaps greater than any of us initially realised'

Michael Mansfield asks LJ Goldring to set a date today for the full inquests. The issue is coming up on the inquest agenda.

Mansfield: "Now is the time to set a firm date for the inquest as it will focus minds on what needs to be done"

Michael Mansfield raises issue of G4S recruiting for Stoddart inquiry. Says it is cause for concern and refers to Olympics shambles

From Dan Kay: Henrietta Hill, standing in for Peter Weatherby QC, who represents various HJC families, says some of them were told in a meeting on the Sunday of the recent Bank Holiday weekend that interviews with involved South Yorkshire Police officers that they were initially told would be all done by mid-December this year were now unlikely to be concluded until March 2014

From Luke Traynor: John Stoddart team visited a Hillsborough family just one day after being warned off. 'Astonishing" says barrister

Dan Kay: Day after issue of Police Liason officers contacting families directly rather than through lawyers was raised to Stoddard inquiry on May 28, they were further examples of it happening the next day, May 29. Disgusted shakes of the head from several family members in court

Luke Traynor: Lawyer for Hillsborough match commanders says the independent report had an 'agenda' in favour of families

From Steve Graves: John Beggs QC, on behalf of match commanders, says Hillsborough Independent Panel report should not be considered independent

Luke Traynor: Families sitting in Liverpool look unhappy with suggestion last September Hillsborough was not entirely independent

Dan Kay: Samantha Leek QC, representing Stoddard Investigation, acknowledges some mistakes made in approach to families and apologises unreservedly for an upset caused but does add that HFSG & HJC did have prior knowledge. Goldring says it's unnecessary to get into debate as to who said what to who and Ms Leek adds they will endeavour to get it right gong forward.

From Dan Kay: Back underway now after short recess. Ms Leek, having been asked by Lord Goldring as to size and nature of Stoddart team, says they already have around 70 in place and are looking to recruit 70/80 more. When asked why the advert for further recruitment was only placed last Friday, Ms Leek says that despite the request being made several months earlier, it was only signed off by the Home Office last week

More from Dan Kay: Verification of statements one of reasons why process of collating statements is taking so long. Ms Leek explains how process has included checking photocopies and original statements with hand-written versions, often involving several members of staff. A letter is being sent out this week with a series of options on how this may be able to be speeded up.

Worrying update from Luke Traynor on Twitter: Early 2014 date for Hillsborough inquests possibly in jeopardy with slow progress of enquiry teams

From Dan Kay: IPCC say they will help and assist with any issues to do with the inquests

Dan Kay: Bit of information given regarding Lextranet, which is an online searchable database system that will be used for the multitude of documents. Various staff now involved in training and this will be the method of how inquest documents will be served to interested persons.

Dan Kay: Ms Lambert says it will be not just useful in the build-up to the inquests but also during. Lord Goldring adds "It's that easy to use that even I can manage it."

Dan Kay in London writes: Three forensic pathologists have been instructed and will be involved in inquests for peer review purposes and to cope with the volume of the work involved.

Dan Kay: An overview report on the Inquests will be completed in September and will be publically disclosed once the team are happy it has fulfilled its remit. The process of individual docs on each of the 96 will then begin

More from Dan Kay: Michael Mansfield on how the HIP's evidence will be scrutinised. On issue relating to removal of material deemed to be irrelevant, " non-disclosure has been at the root of many of the problems over the last two decades". Adds there needs to be a way of storing 'retired' material so it is not lost forever and, while agreeing there is no need to overdo the amount expert witnesses involved, one area where he feels it will be necessary is in that of crowd management, as that has often proved useful in ascertaining what prevailing standards were at the time of previous disasters, such as Bradford

Dan Kay: Reports will also be done of safety and medical experts, potentially by using expert witnesses. Lord Goldring couches caution of what he sees as the overuse of them and says in many instances a judge and jury should be able to get to the truth if instructed properly but confirms he will adds the issue for whether they're required on a case by case basis

Hearing has now resumed. Latest from Dan Kay: Jason Beer, QC for Sheffield Wednesday, mentions the acute need for evidence on what practices were in 1989 - also makes reference to value Lord Justice Taylor placed in an assessment provided by the Chief Constable of Lancashire Police, Brian Johnson during his inquiry

Dan Kay: Attention now turns to venue and date for the inquests. Ms Lambert stresses importance that it is structured in sections and in chronological pattern, with time given to each individual death. Retiring rooms for legal teams also needed with Lord Goldring adding 'and facilities for the families'

Monday 31st March prospective date given by Lord Goldring for Hillsborough inquests to start

Dan Kay update: Lord Goldring now speaking of need to carefully timetable schedule well ahead of inquests. No steer yet on venue but confident a suitable one will be identified

LJ Goldring: "I am confident that we shall locate a satisfactory venue, and that will not be a reason not to begin on that date (31/3/14)"

There will be a third preliminary hearing in October ahead of the new Hillsborough inquests

Steve Graves: Sheffield Wednesday barrister says families have requested visits to Hillsborough to see layout from police control room

Dan Kay adds: Jason Beer, QC for Sheffield Wed, asking that requests by families to be given tour of Hillsborough ground, with guidance for staff, be handled centrally to avoid duplication

Dan Kay: Lord Goldring wraps up by thanking everyone for coming and says he will advise in any outstanding issues, including the venue, as soon as possible. That's it for for now, off to get some video reaction from the families...

Someone should point out to the Match Commander Lawyers that 'independent' means independent of the establishment, of which they are members of, that did so much to ensure that proper inquests have not been heard until almost a quarter of a century after their deaths.
Great work in keeping us updated NACNUD.

Final pre-inquest hearing will be held on Monday 7th.October.....we already know that the inquests will be held in Warrington but exact venue has not been announced yet......There will probably be a video link set up to Liverpool but can't be sure as the hearing is at The Thistle Hotel. Marble Arch this time......will post an update if/when it's announced....

Tough time for the families atm....families preparing for new inquests and survivors re-giving statements. Thoughts are with all of them....they'll Never Walk Alone.......JFT.96.

The families of the 96 who died have been awarded a Pride of Britain Special Recognition Award for their continued fight for all those who lost their lives. being shown on Tuesday 8th October at 8pm on ITV.

* The ECHO will be running a special live blog to keep you up to date with all the events from the hearing on Monday. Log on from Sunday, when we’ll be looking ahead to what might be discussed and reflecting on the key events which have taken place since the quashing of the original inquests in December last year.

Hillsborough families headed to London today for the third and final pre-inquest hearing hoping to be given a clearer picture into how the long-awaited investigations into their loved ones' deaths will work next year.

The hearing, to be held by coroner Lord Justice Goldring at the capital’s Thistle Marble Arch hotel, is expected to address various issues about the new inquests, scheduled to start in Warrington by March 31 next year.

These are likely to include the overall timetable, the process of jury selection, whether key decisions made by original coroner Dr Stefan Popper will be scrutinised, and the 'challenge panel’ of experts expected to oversee the investigations.

Video: Hillsborough families speak ahead of final hearing

Danny Gordon, brother of Formby mum Anne Williams, who lost her battle with cancer in April after campaigning relentlessly for many years to get a new inquest in her son Kevin's death said, "We're hoping to hear that they have got things moving.

"We know it's a mammoth task and they have got a massive job to do but it does feel like they have been dragging their feet. They won't have the trust of the families until we are able to see evidence of things being pushed forward.

"The fact that they accepted the scrutiny panel was a breakthrough but we have had 24 years of lies and deceit, and our trust has to be earned."

Barry Devonside from the Hillsborough Justice Campaign, who lost 18-year-old son Christopher, said, "We want to hear that progress has been made at last with regard to Jon Stoddard's criminal investigation and also that the IPCC have interviewed far more than the 30 people they had when we last met in June.

"We know the inquests will start next March and progress needs to be made quickly, but not at the expense of a thorough investigation."

Charlotte Hennessy, whose father James died in the disaster, said, "I would like them to be able to give us a bit more clarity on the work they've been doing and where things are up to now.

"The biggest worry is that everything will be in place for March 31 as up till now things have been going much slower than we would have liked but hopefully we'll get good news on that tomorrow."

Steve Wright, who lost brother Graham, 17, said, "So much has happened in the last year that it's hard to take stock of it all. The last time we were in London for one of these hearings the police were trying their dirty tricks again by saying the Independent Panel wasn't impartial.

"It is amazing we're still having to put up with this kind of thing after all this time so we'll just have to wait and see what they say this time."

Steve Graves: We're 20 minutes from the start of the hearing and the room is filling up

10:13 am

There are 21 legal teams in the room says Steve

10:20 am

Steve Graves: Outside the hotel we spoke to a number of the families who said they were hopeful this would be a step forward, but Donna Miller, sister of Paul Carlile, said she was afraid it might not offer too much. She did say though she was remaining optimistic about the whole process

Andy Gill @MerseyHack

They're having to bring in more chairs for the #Hillsborough hearing - so many families, lawyers & media here. #lfc #Liverpool #JFT96

Dan Kay: We're underway - Lord Justice Goldring setting the scene that that this is still a courtroom despite being in a hotel so the same rules apply. There will be a fire alarm at 11am which we don't need to worry about. Should the alarm go after that it's for real!

10:38 am

Steve Graves: The hearing will look at the format and sitting times of the full inquest process, and we should get updates on how the IPCC investigation and Operation Resolve, which is looking at the circumstances of the disaster and considering whether criminal charges should be brought, are getting on

10:41 am

Dan Kay: Lambert says unprecedented scale of documents to work from - this is a significant amount of material that was not part of the HIP's remit that is now under consideration. There are many boxes of files, containing amongst other things, detailed information about the post-mortem numbering around 12,000 different documents and more is expected to come to light

10:45 am

Dan Kay: Goldring says it is important in that case to set the priorities for the inquest so we start on time. Ms Lambert says it would be good if we we able to limit any 11th hour disclosure but that is unlikely given the volume of what may yet emerge

10:45 am

Dan Kay: Ms Lambert giving details now of how the police interviews will work in order to make sure they are sufficiently thorough. These interviews won't necessarily be passed straight to the coronial team if they could be prejudicial

10:47 am

Dan Kay: Lord Goldring and Ms Lambert both state commitment to March 31st 2014 start date for inquests

10:51 am

Steve Graves: Families will be encouraged by the commitment to a March start expressed by the coroner and his lead counsel. We expect there to be submissions calling for there to be no prospect of an adjournment on March 31 or any other delay. When I met Jon Stoddart recently he said he was confident his investigation could work alongside the inquest and manage the challenge the start date sets

Steve Graves: Families will be encouraged by the commitment to a March start expressed by the coroner and his lead counsel. We expect there to be submissions calling for there to be no prospect of an adjournment on March 31 or any other delay. When I met Jon Stoddart recently he said he was confident his investigation could work alongside the inquest and manage the challenge the start date sets

10:53 am

Dan Kay: Ms Lambert says we're now in position to recruit further junior counsel and paralegals to increase size of coronial legal team to 20. This should help speed up the process and hope to enclose the entirety of new digitised material disclosed by the HIP report by early January

10:55 am

Dan Kay: Goldring - I am sympathetic to timetable requests by interested persons and don't believe in setting deadlines that can't be achieved. I have to consider by further increasing the numbers we might be able to bring forward that timescale you have mentioned

10:56 am

Dan Kay: Lambert - disclosure of new material not seen by the HIP website. Files from original inquests, transcripts from private prosecutions - we will look to set up a core team who will deal with that

10:58 am

Dan Kay: Schedules of material being looked, relevant or otherwise, will be released so as to ensure transparency

Steve Graves: Much of Ms Lambert's submission can appear quite technical, but the way in which documents are disclosed and can be seen by all interested parties is likely to be vital to ensuring the inquests can start and run smoothly

11:03 am

Dan Kay: Moment's delay as the anticipated fire alarm stops Ms Lambert in her tracks. She resumes after 30 seconds or so giving details about the Lextranet system, which allows solicitors to see documents as they are processed and reviewed

Steve Graves: Ms Lambert gives an indication there will be a further preliminary hearing

11:06 am

Dan Kay: Goldring asking Ms Lambert to ensure a system is in place to for concerned parties to iron disputes, in particular ensuring it is clear who has responsibility for which work stream so people know who to go to in order to keep things moving

Dan Kay: Disclosure of audio/visual footage - encrypted hard disc of all footage was disclosed to interested parties in July, 5 to the HJC Lawyers and 6 to the HFSG ones to enable more than one to work on at same time. Some particularly sensitive footage has been held back and parties can go to Manchester to see it, an invitation that had already been taken up

11:12 am

Dan Kay: Lambert says considerable progress has been made in the collation of expert evidence. Interested persons are invited to submit questions to the experts and raise questions on those reports. In civil litigation there is usually a restriction on those questions to solely points of clarification. We have extended this question process to a wider spectrum to the families and other interested parties - whether it's a piece of evidence that may be missing, or any other query they may have. We take the view that by throwing things open for people to query this should save time later on as any issues will hopefully have already been addressed

Steve Graves @steve_graves

Lead counsel asks for direction that all Hillsborough evidence be submitted by December 13.

1:08 PM - 7 Oct 2013

11:14 am

Steve Graves: Lots of emphasis on the need for a 'collegiate' spirit among professionals working as experts and for legal teams. There is a desire to ensure the process this time round is not an adversarial one, but one which sees people working together to establish what happened

Key features of individual post-mortems will also be contained as to the other causes of death to help determine whether different pre-hospital care may have resulted in a different outcome.

At the moment it is set in language that you need a medical degree to understand but efforts are being made to make it easier for lay- people to understand. This should be done in the next 7-10 days

11:20 am

Steve Graves: Christina Lambert QC makes clear inquest will look at whether individuals may have survived had emergency response been different

11:24 am

Dan Kay: Lambert - it would be sensible and sensitive for this document should be disclosed first to the families then to other interested parties, even if only 48 hours beforehand. I'll leave that for ther parties to have their say on

11:24 am

Steve Graves: Experts in structural engineering and pre-hospital emergency care have been instructed and their reports expected next month

11:26 am

Dan Kay: Proposed expert in police Mr Hopkins - concern raised by families as for need for expert in this discipline. Goldring interrupts and says best to get the report and then see whether it should make up part of inquest process.

Lambert continues - no expert should be invited to give view of matters of fact and we have that well in mind.

Hopkins contact with the Football Association should not be a bar to him providing an independent report. If any parties have an objection they can of course raise that today

11:29 am

Dan Kay: Lambert concludes by saying coronial team are indebted to assistance they've had from Op Resolve team & IPCC. There are three areas of special consideration that are being looked at and would benefit from an early start: stadium safety, pre hospital care & movement of individuals through the crowd

11:29 am

Steve Graves: Crucial evidence from Ms Lambert - confirming that the inquests this time round will look specifically at whether individuals could have survived given different emergency response. Once and for all the 3.15 cutoff and general conduct of previous inquests is left behind

11:33 am

Dan Kay: Goldring says he may get more involved in things to make sure things are done and ready to go for March 31st as it is of overwhelming importance that the inquests start then. Whatever the history (and best not to comment on some of it), there no doubt that a great deal of work is now being done but I am absolutely determined that we will begin when I said we would begin

11:33 am

Dan Kay: Discussions now onto the make up and timetabling of inquests, how many days a week etc, whether half days will be need for logistical details

Dan Kay: A precise timetable will be set for when each individual case will be heard to families will now when each case will be heard. Goldring not keen on only sitting 4 days out of 5 each week as there is a danger it will drag on too long

11:37 am

Dan Kay: Lambert continues - some of jury may have little or no knowledge of Hillsborough so they will be fully briefed, which may include a site visit to the stadium

11:42 am

Steve Graves: Efforts will be made to ensure witnesses who have to give evidence more than once will be accommodated as best as possible

11:43 am

Dan Kay: Lambert says preparation of witness list is ongoing - this is a list that may increase or contract as the weeks go on and we welcome input from interested persons as to who should be on it. Audio/visual evidence is of the most sensitive nature and it would be appalling if it was disseminated more widely than it should be.

All families hshould be canvassed on this, even those not affiliated with either many group, as the protection of the evidence is of paramount importance. Goldring urges all parties to find a suitable solution that is acceptable to all parties and allows things to move forward

11:43 am

Steve Graves: Inquests will begin with evidence from families on those who died. Will move on through the events, and it's likely jury will visit Hillsborough

11:43 am

Steve Graves: There is a common theme to many of the coroner's comments. He wants people to communicate and work together to find solutions, and not rely on him to bring things together

Dan Kay: Michael Mansfield QC for the Hillsborough Family Support Group now making submissions to Lord Justice Goldring.

Would like to reinforce families gratitude for fixing date and LJG's commitment to sticking to it.

Aware that there are many people, both in and outside of this room, who are working hard with the utmost diligence on our objective.

There are concerns though and we would like to offer some constructive suggestions

11:54 am

Steve Graves: Seven officials linked to Sheffield Wednesday will be questioned in investigations, hearing is told

11:56 am

Dan Kay: Mansfield - RE issue of micro management, while it's important to allow people to go about their jobs it may be necessary to take a firmer hand in some areas.

Document that MM passed on to Stoddart teams at time of first pre inquest hearing RE stadium safety at Hillsborough 81-87. This was not in original HIP report and we have had no update on this since (April).

This mushrooms out and we can see there is an overlap between the IPCC investigation and the police - there is a big risk of the investigations being split between the two parties and it is difficult to discern who is doing what

11:58 am

Steve Graves: Mr Mansfield wants to see more supervision to ensure IPCC and police investigations are running smoothly and submissions are being fully considered. It will be interesting to see what impact the proposed challenge panel would have on these concerns

11:59 am

Dan Kay: MM calls for more stringent and rigorous overview of progress, asking for an assurance that Goldring is aware of what is happening.

Goldring asks for a broader idea of exactly what Mansfield is asking for.

MM - We want a more hands-on approach and a better overview of what's happening so that documents, like the one provided in April, are not left sitting in an office somewhere as people are working on something else

12:01 pm

Dan Kay: MM families received letter on Friday RE sensitive material. There is a position that need to be contenanced now if necessarily resolved RE the overlap of interviews that may be pertinent to both inquests and police investigation

12:06 pm

Steve Graves: Michael Mansfield is drawing attention to the conflicts likely to be thrown up by situations where witnesses to the inquests could also face criminal prosecution. Coroners instruct people they need not answer questions if they could be incriminated by their answers

Glad this has been brought up...posted something similar on The Road to Justice thread the other day....

Dan Kay: MM (cont) lists of 'irrelevant material' - looking at first page, on face of it some of it is clearly irrelevant but some if it is as shown by mention on page of issue to do with cost of South Yorkshire Policing, which is potentially relevant.

It might speed things up if all relevant material is disclosable and accessible, this could be done easily by a spreadsheet document or hyperlink leading to it

12:14 pm

Dan Kay: Goldring - I need to be convinced by this approach as the relevance test is already having to be applied by the paralegals. If we open the door to everything, this could delay things further if more people have to pass judgement on an item's relevance

12:18 pm

Dan Kay: Mansfield pauses for a moment to discuss matter with his team and seems more satisfied now that they will be able to access files should they need them.

Mansfield continues now about the audio visual material. Some of it is not of the highest quality. Mansfield describing how the information is displayed on spreadsheet, where in ground (pens, pitch etc) of refers to and where from (BBC, ITV, CCTV etc)

12:19 pm

Steve Graves: Discussing audio-visual evidence, Michael Mansfield says there is a fear some evidence which was in police hands may have been changed

12:25 pm

Dan Kay: MM - People relevant to each case (witnesses, victims etc) could then be assigned to a clip if it's relevant to them but an expert in this field need to be assigned to enable that to be done. Goldring indicates his amenability to that.

RE sensitivity of a/v footage, Mansfield asks for 7 day gap (rather than the earlier proposed 48 hour one) between families and interested parties getting it because of number of families involved

12:29 pm

Dan Kay: MM suggests that individual reports may not be ready for March 31 st. Stops for clarification and will wait for further guidance. Continues by talking about disclosure of pathology and non-HIP evidence

12:30 pm

Steve Graves: Michael Mansfield says he hopes inquests could conclude within six months, though accepts they could take nine