The video is kinda long, but I think it's probably worth the watch for adult onset swimmers.

The swimming tips/instruction starts at 4:30.

My question is based on his discussion of high-elbow catch (starts at 7:30 in the video). He specifically says you shouldn't ever be extending your arms fully. That the arm is always slightly bent, and the elbow is always pointing up.

So, I was playing with this, and it feels kinda awkward, especially at the shoulder. Is that just because I haven't been doing it right?

I watched Phelps and Yang videos of freestyle (I'd like to see it slowed down), but they both appear to get fully extended.

2. I saw an interview Paul Newsome (Swim Smooth guy) did with someone (don't remember who) with both of them advocating a similar philosophy about not extending the elbow completely. They also mentioned that when swimmers extend their arm completely, the tendency to put the palm forward ("putting on the brakes") and slow down momentum is higher. The video you posted didn't mention this, but did emphasize keeping the hand below the elbow.

3. I could be wrong on this, but it seems that not extending the arm completely could encourage faster stroke rates, which typically go well in open water. That could be a reason contributing to what he's saying, but that's just a guess and I might be wrong.

Originally posted by The Chupacabra 1. I am not a fish. 2. I saw an interview Paul Newsome (Swim Smooth guy) did with someone (don't remember who) with both of them advocating a similar philosophy about not extending the elbow completely. They also mentioned that when swimmers extend their arm completely, the tendency to put the palm forward ("putting on the brakes") and slow down momentum is higher. The video you posted didn't mention this, but did emphasize keeping the hand below the elbow. 3. I could be wrong on this, but it seems that not extending the arm completely could encourage faster stroke rates, which typically go well in open water. That could be a reason contributing to what he's saying, but that's just a guess and I might be wrong. 4. Thanks for the interesting video!

A possibly helpful way to get a feel for the catch and initial pull position is to lay stomach down, head facing water at the edge of a pool that has 90-degree edge into the water. Slide your arm forward, then bend it 90 degrees at the elbow (draping it over the edge of the pool, palm and forearm flat against the pool wall). It's easier to do without the arm fully extended; it gives you an idea of where your upper arm should be and just how surprisingly high the initial elbow position is. If you press against the wall with palm/forearm as if to pull yourself into the pool, that's also a way to feel the initial pull position.

The place you should really feel it is NOT in the shoulder or at the shoulder joint (no! shudder!) but across the lats, most notably the lower back side of your armpit.

What you say about the palm makes sense, and I didn't even think about the stroke rate component.

When I try it in the water--the keeping the elbow pointing up part--I do feel a much stronger lat connection, but I also "feel it" in my shoulders. The shoulder thing doesn't feel "bad", just very different, but maybe like it could be/get bad. I also feel it more in my forearm...

When I get full extension, I still feel like my elbow is higher than my wrist, even if it's pointing to the sidewall instead of "up", but that's due to the angel of my arm entry to the catch.

It seems like a small point, I know, but it just feels so, so different.

Originally posted by The Chupacabra 1. I am not a fish. 2. I saw an interview Paul Newsome (Swim Smooth guy) did with someone (don't remember who) with both of them advocating a similar philosophy about not extending the elbow completely. They also mentioned that when swimmers extend their arm completely, the tendency to put the palm forward ("putting on the brakes") and slow down momentum is higher. The video you posted didn't mention this, but did emphasize keeping the hand below the elbow. 3. I could be wrong on this, but it seems that not extending the arm completely could encourage faster stroke rates, which typically go well in open water. That could be a reason contributing to what he's saying, but that's just a guess and I might be wrong. 4. Thanks for the interesting video!

A possibly helpful way to get a feel for the catch and initial pull position is to lay stomach down, head facing water at the edge of a pool that has 90-degree edge into the water. Slide your arm forward, then bend it 90 degrees at the elbow (draping it over the edge of the pool, palm and forearm flat against the pool wall). It's easier to do without the arm fully extended; it gives you an idea of where your upper arm should be and just how surprisingly high the initial elbow position is. If you press against the wall with palm/forearm as if to pull yourself into the pool, that's also a way to feel the initial pull position.

The place you should really feel it is NOT in the shoulder or at the shoulder joint (no! shudder!) but across the lats, most notably the lower back side of your armpit.

What you say about the palm makes sense, and I didn't even think about the stroke rate component.

When I try it in the water--the keeping the elbow pointing up part--I do feel a much stronger lat connection, but I also "feel it" in my shoulders. The shoulder thing doesn't feel "bad", just very different, but maybe like it could be/get bad. I also feel it more in my forearm...

When I get full extension, I still feel like my elbow is higher than my wrist, even if it's pointing to the sidewall instead of "up", but that's due to the angel of my arm entry to the catch.

It seems like a small point, I know, but it just feels so, so different.

Well, since your community already thinks you're a freak having someone video you swimming shouldn't be too weird, eh? It could just feel weird because it's different, or it could actually look far different from what it feels (and/or what it should be).

It takes ENORMOUS shoulder and core strength to swim like Phelps and Yang and ... Kingsley. It takes a fair amount just to assume and execute optimal positions in the swim stroke.

Sheila T is a big fan of working out with dryland swim tubing for that reason (and others), and I've become one too.

In short:

1) Get video of yourself; even only above-water video (closer to pool level the better, though) can be very telling and is definitely better than none.

2) (You know this--far better than I, methinks!) Patience, consistency, focus. It's okay to do a lot of fumbling and feeling in the water. Kind of like a bunch of teenage first dates.

What you say about the palm makes sense, and I didn't even think about the stroke rate component.

When I try it in the water--the keeping the elbow pointing up part--I do feel a much stronger lat connection, but I also "feel it" in my shoulders. The shoulder thing doesn't feel "bad", just very different, but maybe like it could be/get bad. I also feel it more in my forearm...

When I get full extension, I still feel like my elbow is higher than my wrist, even if it's pointing to the sidewall instead of "up", but that's due to the angel of my arm entry to the catch.

It seems like a small point, I know, but it just feels so, so different.

Well, since your community already thinks you're a freak ;) having someone video you swimming shouldn't be too weird, eh? It could just feel weird because it's different, or it could actually look far different from what it feels (and/or what it should be).

It takes ENORMOUS shoulder and core strength to swim like Phelps and Yang and ... Kingsley. :) It takes a fair amount just to assume and execute optimal positions in the swim stroke.

Sheila T is a big fan of working out with dryland swim tubing for that reason (and others), and I've become one too.

In short:

1) Get video of yourself; even only above-water video (closer to pool level the better, though) can be very telling and is definitely better than none.

2) (You know this--far better than I, methinks!) Patience, consistency, focus. It's okay to do a lot of fumbling and feeling in the water. Kind of like a bunch of teenage first dates.

Well it's been a while, but I'm sure I can remember how to fumble around...

I'll get some video and post for you to give me the break down. I'd love that :)

What you say about the palm makes sense, and I didn't even think about the stroke rate component.

When I try it in the water--the keeping the elbow pointing up part--I do feel a much stronger lat connection, but I also "feel it" in my shoulders. The shoulder thing doesn't feel "bad", just very different, but maybe like it could be/get bad. I also feel it more in my forearm...

When I get full extension, I still feel like my elbow is higher than my wrist, even if it's pointing to the sidewall instead of "up", but that's due to the angel of my arm entry to the catch.

It seems like a small point, I know, but it just feels so, so different.

Well, since your community already thinks you're a freak having someone video you swimming shouldn't be too weird, eh? It could just feel weird because it's different, or it could actually look far different from what it feels (and/or what it should be).

It takes ENORMOUS shoulder and core strength to swim like Phelps and Yang and ... Kingsley. It takes a fair amount just to assume and execute optimal positions in the swim stroke.

Sheila T is a big fan of working out with dryland swim tubing for that reason (and others), and I've become one too.

In short:

1) Get video of yourself; even only above-water video (closer to pool level the better, though) can be very telling and is definitely better than none.

2) (You know this--far better than I, methinks!) Patience, consistency, focus. It's okay to do a lot of fumbling and feeling in the water. Kind of like a bunch of teenage first dates.

To add a little more, what was mentioned in the video is in regards to the bolded. When extending fully straight there is a tendency for the arm to twist and the elbow to point down. And that messes up the catch. It's possible to eventually get the arm straighter, but it can take a lot of work to develop the flexibility and the power to do so.

Very good tips in this video, well explained. Around 1:40 he starts talking about the high elbow and arm extension.

He exaggerates it to show the point, but what I understand is that when you extend fully the arm turns such that the elbow starts pointing downwards and this then causes the elbow to lead the stroke. Also, if you extend the arm fully you can lock the elbow joint so you'll do a straight arm pull.

I'm not a fish, well, maybe a bottom feeder. I ordered a book from Sheila Taormina and she advocates basically the same thing. I've been trying to incorporate it and it does feel awkward. It's too early to tell if it's speeding me up. I'll let you know when I feel more comfortable with it.

Originally posted by erik.norgaard The Swim Smooth video mentioned in other post is likely this one with Dave Scott and Paul Newsome: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARnV-BQhgB0Very good tips in this video, well explained. Around 1:40 he starts talking about the high elbow and arm extension. He exaggerates it to show the point, but what I understand is that when you extend fully the arm turns such that the elbow starts pointing downwards and this then causes the elbow to lead the stroke. Also, if you extend the arm fully you can lock the elbow joint so you'll do a straight arm pull. They also talks about the stroke rate vs. strokes per length.

OK, this video was really helpful. Thanks:)

Dave spoke specifically about the elbow pointing to the sidewall--that seems g2g. It's when I try to keep it pointing up that my shoulder shrugs and it feels weird. I do think I have been extending too much though, and I'm going to try shortening that up a bit and a slightly higher stroke rate.

I really liked hearing what they said about stroke rate. So often the focus is on low strokes per length.

I thought about getting a metronome last year, but didn't pull the trigger. May do that this year.

What you say about the palm makes sense, and I didn't even think about the stroke rate component.

When I try it in the water--the keeping the elbow pointing up part--I do feel a much stronger lat connection, but I also "feel it" in my shoulders. The shoulder thing doesn't feel "bad", just very different, but maybe like it could be/get bad. I also feel it more in my forearm...

When I get full extension, I still feel like my elbow is higher than my wrist, even if it's pointing to the sidewall instead of "up", but that's due to the angel of my arm entry to the catch.

It seems like a small point, I know, but it just feels so, so different.

Let's clear up some terminology to make things clear. What direction the elbow points:

is it the direction that a line drawn through the upper arm adn extending through teh elbow makes? is it the direction taht a line drawn through the foremarm back to the elbow makes? Or is it a line that bisects these two angles and goes out the tip of the elbow? I use the third to discuss where the elbow points.

If the elbow points "UP" relative to the body you have too much internal rotation and this si going to cause shoulder discomfort and impingement.

the elbow pointing to the side (of the pool) enables you to create a smooth shoulder friendly catch without hurting the shoulder joint.

Exact positions may vary because of body rotation throughout the stroke cycles.

The arm can be fully extended and horizontal prior to the catch if you are very flexible and fast (like phelps, yang). but most of us are not as flexible and have less room in the scapula ad shoulder to move without causing joint strain.

I prefer to have a "loose" elbow as if my extended arm is draped over a vary large swiss ball in front of me. When I do this, the elbow is pointed to the side of the pool wall. Shoulder is happy. Catch is happy. Everyone happy.

I really liked hearing what they said about stroke rate. So often the focus is on low strokes per length.

I thought about getting a metronome last year, but didn't pull the trigger. May do that this year.

Speed = rate x length. They are both important. Most of Length achieved through technique, rate achieved through allowing neuromuscular adaptations to catch up with technique. Specific Fitness is improved in both cases, ie the specific fitness needed by the rotator cuff and deltoid mucles to hold their position, be patient, let the lats work and become activated at faster rates as tempo increases...not just pulling more.

What you say about the palm makes sense, and I didn't even think about the stroke rate component.

When I try it in the water--the keeping the elbow pointing up part--I do feel a much stronger lat connection, but I also "feel it" in my shoulders. The shoulder thing doesn't feel "bad", just very different, but maybe like it could be/get bad. I also feel it more in my forearm...

When I get full extension, I still feel like my elbow is higher than my wrist, even if it's pointing to the sidewall instead of "up", but that's due to the angel of my arm entry to the catch.

It seems like a small point, I know, but it just feels so, so different.

Let's clear up some terminology to make things clear. What direction the elbow points: is it the direction that a line drawn through the upper arm adn extending through teh elbow makes? is it the direction taht a line drawn through the foremarm back to the elbow makes? Or is it a line that bisects these two angles and goes out the tip of the elbow? I use the third to discuss where the elbow points. If the elbow points "UP" relative to the body you have too much internal rotation and this si going to cause shoulder discomfort and impingement. the elbow pointing to the side (of the pool) enables you to create a smooth shoulder friendly catch without hurting the shoulder joint. Exact positions may vary because of body rotation throughout the stroke cycles. The arm can be fully extended and horizontal prior to the catch if you are very flexible and fast (like phelps, yang). but most of us are not as flexible and have less room in the scapula ad shoulder to move without causing joint strain. I prefer to have a "loose" elbow as if my extended arm is draped over a vary large swiss ball in front of me. When I do this, the elbow is pointed to the side of the pool wall. Shoulder is happy. Catch is happy. Everyone happy.

That was EXACTLY my question :)

The man in the the first video describes a catch with that point pointing more up than to the side, his shoulder shrugs, and when I tried that it felt very odd. Pointing it to the sidewall (which is what the second video described) is much more doable, and is actually what I do. I think. Most of the time:)

I really liked hearing what they said about stroke rate. So often the focus is on low strokes per length.

I thought about getting a metronome last year, but didn't pull the trigger. May do that this year.

Speed = rate x length. They are both important. Most of Length achieved through technique, rate achieved through allowing neuromuscular adaptations to catch up with technique. Specific Fitness is improved in both cases, ie the specific fitness needed by the rotator cuff and deltoid mucles to hold their position, be patient, let the lats work and become activated at faster rates as tempo increases...not just pulling more.

Yes, I realize now that I wrote that poorly--sorry :)

In the second video they discuss both and were specifically talking about increasing the stroke rate and that it is OK if that means that you also have a higher number of strokes/length. They gave an example of a very fast swimmer who was taking 24strokes/25m.

I don't know if you watched the videos, but that was one of the things I heard that was interesting, as some programs and coaches talk about working on both a low stroke rate and strokes/length. Not that it's an either or, but it's cool to hear some coaches vocalize that having a higher one (specifically) might be totally OK depending on the swimmer, and may be of particular benefit to triathletes who are doing a lot of OWS.

In the second video they discuss both and were specifically talking about increasing the stroke rate and that it is OK if that means that you also have a higher number of strokes/length. They gave an example of a very fast swimmer who was taking 24strokes/25m.

It's about finding the sweet spot.

What happens often is that when you increase stroke rate there comes a point where technique falls apart and your stroke becomes very inefficient. You may still be faster, but can't keep that up for very long. This is OK on a 25-50m sprint, but won't work for you on 1.2Mi IM swim. The longer the distances the more you value you value efficiency so you can keep up the pace.

However, you can also get to the other extreme, in an attempt to lengthen your stroke you reduce stroke rate and sacrifice speed. You may noticed the story in the second video around 4:15? Key quote by Dave Scott "the game is to go faster", so don't get obsessed with strokes per length.

Originally posted by switch In the second video they discuss both and were specifically talking about increasing the stroke rate and that it is OK if that means that you also have a higher number of strokes/length. They gave an example of a very fast swimmer who was taking 24strokes/25m.

It's about finding the sweet spot. What happens often is that when you increase stroke rate there comes a point where technique falls apart and your stroke becomes very inefficient. You may still be faster, but can't keep that up for very long. This is OK on a 25-50m sprint, but won't work for you on 1.2Mi IM swim. The longer the distances the more you value you value efficiency so you can keep up the pace. However, you can also get to the other extreme, in an attempt to lengthen your stroke you reduce stroke rate and sacrifice speed. You may noticed the story in the second video around 4:15? Key quote by Dave Scott "the game is to go faster", so don't get obsessed with strokes per length. Swim Smooth have more videos on this topic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8SEJpvZSOYIn this video they mention Janet Evans, known for a "horrible" style, that is choppy and very high stroke rate. But as they say: You can't compete at this level if you're not efficient. So it's not an exact science and what works for some may not work for others.

Exactly. That's what I was trying to say in my second paragraph--the one that followed the one you quoted :)

I don't know if you watched the videos, but that was one of the things I heard that was interesting, as some programs and coaches talk about working on both a low stroke rate and strokes/length. Not that it's an either or, but it's cool to hear some coaches vocalize that having a higher one (specifically) might be totally OK depending on the swimmer, and may be of particular benefit to triathletes who are doing a lot of OWS.

I've never been able to watch more than 30 seconds of that Marc Evans video, so I actually have no idea what he says there. My loss I guess.

It's easy to create SPL targets by using your height to estimate a reasonable SPL at an easy-ish effort. when you swim your most relaxed, comfortable stroke...likely one that is sustainable as well depending on your fitness, your SPL should fall in line with your height. E.g. a 6' tall person taking 24 SPL at 30 seconds per 25 yds has very poor technique, whereas a 5'0 person, it's OK.

Once you have a reasonable starting point with technique and are ready to add speed, you can see how much your SPL climbs as pace increases or as distance increases.

A sustainable stroke implies that you can complete the same stroke repeatedly, or say a 1500yd swim at a constant pace and constant SPL. (In reality there will be variety of a few seconds or SPL one way or the other) but you shouldn't say start the first 500 yds at 20 SPL, then be finishing at 26 SPL...that's form breakdown.

Look for things like SPL climbing as distance goes up and pace stays steady, SPL going up as pace stays the same or slows, or SPL decreasing or staying the same but pace slowing...all suggest your starting pace & technique is not sustainable.

Add in a tempo trainer and you can really have a lot of fun swapping out SPL for tempo, or pace for tempo. In otherwords there are 3 parameters...follow any 2 of them for a training set and you can glean a lot of really good information.

I don't know if you watched the videos, but that was one of the things I heard that was interesting, as some programs and coaches talk about working on both a low stroke rate and strokes/length. Not that it's an either or, but it's cool to hear some coaches vocalize that having a higher one (specifically) might be totally OK depending on the swimmer, and may be of particular benefit to triathletes who are doing a lot of OWS.

I've never been able to watch more than 30 seconds of that Marc Evans video, so I actually have no idea what he says there. My loss I guess. It's easy to create SPL targets by using your height to estimate a reasonable SPL at an easy-ish effort. when you swim your most relaxed, comfortable stroke...likely one that is sustainable as well depending on your fitness, your SPL should fall in line with your height. E.g. a 6' tall person taking 24 SPL at 30 seconds per 25 yds has very poor technique, whereas a 5'0 person, it's OK. Once you have a reasonable starting point with technique and are ready to add speed, you can see how much your SPL climbs as pace increases or as distance increases. A sustainable stroke implies that you can complete the same stroke repeatedly, or say a 1500yd swim at a constant pace and constant SPL. (In reality there will be variety of a few seconds or SPL one way or the other) but you shouldn't say start the first 500 yds at 20 SPL, then be finishing at 26 SPL...that's form breakdown. Look for things like SPL climbing as distance goes up and pace stays steady, SPL going up as pace stays the same or slows, or SPL decreasing or staying the same but pace slowing...all suggest your starting pace & technique is not sustainable. Add in a tempo trainer and you can really have a lot of fun swapping out SPL for tempo, or pace for tempo. In otherwords there are 3 parameters...follow any 2 of them for a training set and you can glean a lot of really good information.

Fwiw, as someone who didn't grow up swimming and mired through a lot of information before "getting it", its pretty hard to work on arm position if the rest of your stroke isn't very balanced and streamlined. If you have a lousy kick or no kick, forget it. If you have poor rotation, forget it. Sinking legs, forget it. Still struggling with breathing position and timing, forget it. The big stuff needs to come first, and after it has been addressed, you will largely FEEL where the arms go and how they should work. Not unlike running or cycling, if your technique is in place it becomes a strength and endurance discussion, but be warned that working on your catch and pull alone thinking it has the magic bullet before working on a complete body stroke (including a kick!!) comfort and streamlining is a mistake, and i would be surprised if any swimsmooth, TI, or other school would disagree.

i think the important thing to realize in conjunction with the high elbow is @10:28. deep catch. the elbow cannot be held high in the water the entire time or you can't have a deep catch, the high elbow is for the entry and beginning of the pull only. if you enter at an angle and just relax/drop your hand you will get the "over the barrel" arch he is describing.

the deep catch helps increase the amount of water you pull or force you apply and can lead to a slower cadence in the water... which is good if the swim is your warmup and not the entire race... have to keep that heart rate down at the beginning.

disclaimer: im not a fish, but this is what i have been coached recently and it has helped immensely.