If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

Nuntius, Danny Granger didn't change his game much at all in Vogel's first full year. I have to disagree with you there. I didn't see much of the preseason so I can't personally verify Anthem's post that said Danny seemed more willing to give the ball up in preseason. If so, that's a great sign.

My links weren't really meant to prove Danny's a black hole, that's my opinion, I only put them there to show you that I'm not alone in thinking that. It's not some crazy idea. Certainly not crazy enough to deserve the **** I got in this thread for saying it.

No, it is a pretty crazy idea. There are people out there who think he is a chucker because of his shooting percentage, but you are the first person I have ever seen call him a blackhole. Calling him such suggests that once he gets the ball a shot is going up or there is going to be a turnover, which just has never been the case with Danny.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

Not assisting and dribbling with his head down straight to the basket. There's really no comparison between the two when it comes to playmaking.

I'm not saying that Danny is a playmaker, but the things we're talking about are based on what he does when he's done with the ball. He either shoots, turns the ball over, or passes. How long it takes him to do any of those three doesn't matter. How good he is at facilitating another player doesn't matter. If he isn't shooting too much and he isn't turning the ball over too much, he must be passing it. Is he passing it to a player in scoring position? Obviously not, based on the assist numbers, but he's passing the ball as part of the middle of an offensive play or getting it back to the backcourt facilitator (usually the point guard) or in to the center (when playing an in-and-out game). If he holds the ball and does nothing with it, that would end up a turnover. If he just heaves up shots that would add to his shots taken.

First, he is clearly not using "pass" but using "pass to a man who is not only in scoring position but scores". I already have a problem because it only counts guys who pass to someone who scores. If you don't have other scorers on the team, that's problematic, so it is skewed against the top scorer with average teammates.

Next, he "calculates" the average utilization as 20% with the logic that you split up your shots between all 5 positions equally. WTF? If my top scorer is taking the same number of shots as my worst scorer I want someone taken out.

And, finally, Danny is on this list even though his TS% and assists are HIGHER than the averages for his position - with a supposed "black hole index" that is 6% of the number for the biggest black hole, and 32% of the number for the "well known" guy 4 positions above him.

I'm crying - this is just punishing a guy with a high utilization.

ETA: a wing with a utilization of 21%, assists of 13%, and TS% of 54% - in other words, only barely off the averages he set - ends up with a BHI of 5.1. So Danny is LESS of a "black hole" than a wing as close to the average as you could possibly get..

BillS

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

Create an ignore list. I know it may seem unneighborly. But you're here to talk about the Pacers, not argue with someone who's just looking for an argument. Most of the regular users on here make use (at least occasionally) of the "Ignore" feature. Just go to "Settings" -> "Edit Ignore List" and add the names.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

Nuntius, Danny Granger didn't change his game much at all in Vogel's first full year. I have to disagree with you there. I didn't see much of the preseason so I can't personally verify Anthem's post that said Danny seemed more willing to give the ball up in preseason. If so, that's a great sign.

My links weren't really meant to prove Danny's a black hole, that's my opinion, I only put them there to show you that I'm not alone in thinking that. It's not some crazy idea. Certainly not crazy enough to deserve the **** I got in this thread for saying it.

Before watching the 10-11 season I hadn't watched a game that featured Danny Granger in my life (although I did watch the 2010 FIBA World Championship but I wasn't paying much attention to individual players). I never got the impression that he is an unwilling passer. He always struck me as a willing passer that just lacks passing skills. That's why I have never understood the "black hole" and "chucker" remarks that I have seen posted in this forum. I believe that some people are thinking too much about the JOB era.

That said, you are absolutely entitled to disagree with me.

Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

No, it is a pretty crazy idea. There are people out there who think he is a chucker because of his shooting percentage, but you are the first person I have ever seen call him a blackhole. Calling him such suggests that once he gets the ball a shot is going up or there is going to be a turnover, which just has never been the case with Danny.

I have to agree with this. Granger, for all his weaknesses, is not a black hole. He is willing to give the ball up and normally doesn't force too many shots. The knock on Danny is that he will take lots of ill advised shots early in the shot clock. Normally these are not good shots but shots he could get anytime well after people are in rebounding position. This is indeed as good as a turnover.

As for this talk about him passing, all he has ever done is make pedestrian passes that any backup in the league could do. His dribbling skills are at about the same level. These are the prime reasons why some posters here are not impressed. We look at many more factors than his ability to shoot from the perimeter.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

Danny has never been a ball hog. Al Harrington he is not. But Danny has shot many, many times very early in the shot clock when the look wasn't all that good. From what I recall he seemed to miss 75% of those shots...and IMO that's where the "chucker" moniker is coming from.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

I'll try the glass half-full approach with him for once. Are we talking soreness in the calf or knee?

The tweet doesn't specify, but I'll assume it's the calf. By comparing it to last year, I just mean that we're once again going through all of the debates over how he will fit in, while his return to the team continuously gets delayed by the "he's feels good, but we're just being cautious with him" stuff. You could cut and paste the quotes from last February and not notice the difference.

I honestly have tried my best to be optimistic about all of this, but it gets hard after a while.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

Danny has never been a ball hog. Al Harrington he is not. But Danny has shot many, many times very early in the shot clock when the look wasn't all that good. From what I recall he seemed to miss 75% of those shots...and IMO that's where the "chucker" moniker is coming from.

So, wait. The coach demanded players shoot early in the shot clock. We're now going to blame that on Danny.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

BillS

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

Create an ignore list. I know it may seem unneighborly. But you're here to talk about the Pacers, not argue with someone who's just looking for an argument. Most of the regular users on here make use (at least occasionally) of the "Ignore" feature. Just go to "Settings" -> "Edit Ignore List" and add the names.

Create an ignore list. I know it may seem unneighborly. But you're here to talk about the Pacers, not argue with someone who's just looking for an argument. Most of the regular users on here make use (at least occasionally) of the "Ignore" feature. Just go to "Settings" -> "Edit Ignore List" and add the names.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

Danny has never been a ball hog. Al Harrington he is not. But Danny has shot many, many times very early in the shot clock when the look wasn't all that good. From what I recall he seemed to miss 75% of those shots...and IMO that's where the "chucker" moniker is coming from.

Fair enough. The term "chucker" has also come to imply "inefficient" as well (something that Danny isn't) but if your complaint is that he shot early in the shot clock in the JOB era then fair enough.

Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

We need him back and as close to 100% as possible to go far in the playoffs. PG and Lance are still too inconsistent.

I don't know if it's fair to say that PG is inconsistent. He did, after all, just break a nine-game streak of 20+ point games. However, Lance is too much of a wild card for my tastes. You don't know what you're going to get game-by-game or even quarter-by-quarter from him. I'm afraid the opposing game plan has become to rattle him early and watch him implode.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

We need him back and as close to 100% as possible to go far in the playoffs. PG and Lance are still too inconsistent.

So. We have a tough loss and now Lance and PG are too inconsistent for the Pacers to make a deep playoff run. Really?

The starters and the bench have both improved. Yes the Bulls gave us a spanking but it was one single game. We spanked the heck out of the Heat last year several time and still lost to them....deep in the playoffs.....

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

I don't know if it's fair to say that PG is inconsistent. He did, after all, just break a nine-game streak of 20+ point games. However, Lance is too much of a wild card for my tastes. You don't know what you're going to get game-by-game or even quarter-by-quarter from him. I'm afraid the opposing game plan has become to rattle him early and watch him implode.

What I've seen from PG is that when you body him up and get physical with him he goes into a shell or begs for calls from the refs.

Re: Granger To Resume Practice

So. We have a tough loss and now Lance and PG are too inconsistent for the Pacers to make a deep playoff run. Really?

The starters and the bench have both improved. Yes the Bulls gave us a spanking but it was one single game. We spanked the heck out of the Heat last year several time and still lost to them....deep in the playoffs.....

I saw this same PG and Lance in the playoffs last year when the season was on the line. They are young, I understand that, but they need to grow up and mature some more for the Pacers to get out of the East.