Before the thread closes, thank you to JLB and Ed.W for answering my question about the sacramental value of marriage in their respective traditions - for me, at least, it helped to understand the heart behind the process.

My background is Lutheran, and I remember seasoned pastors in Minnesota telling me about the old days, where marriage wasn't called a sacrament, per se, but it was celebrated as one did Baptism. If there was a wedding in the church, the couple had the choice to have the marriage ceremony in fellowship with the entire congregation and as part of the Sunday worship service. Today, they suggest it every now and then - half as a joke, half with hope - and don't get any takers.

"He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your heartssuffered you [...] but from the beginning it was not so."

Absolutely.

Marriage was meant to be more.

2 And Pharisees came up and in order to test him asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?”3 He answered them, “What did Moses command you?”4 They said, “Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of divorce and to send her away.”5 And Jesus said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment.6 But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female.’7 ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife,8 and the two shall become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two but one flesh.9 What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”

Personally, I'm pretty tired of people saying Jesus is silent on these matters.

Personally I am tired of people reading their biases into the bible. Jesus was silent, only you don't wish to think that because that means you have to admit that it is your bigotry.

Please, enlighten me: What am I reading into the text?

When Jesus, in Mark (the earliest and therefore least perverted of the Gospels) says:

Moses allowed divorce, but that was because your hearts were hard. (v5)Marriage was designed at creation, where God made them male and female. (v6)God joins people in marriage. (v9)

Okay, I'd be glad to.

Moses quote - what has that got to do with homosexuality?

It says that Yahweh made male and female, yes? It is talking about Moses, who married a woman, is allowed to divorce her. What has that to do with homosexuality?

A man will leave... etc. Nothing about homosexuality is there?

So here you have Jesus asked a particular question and he answers it. There is nothing there about homosexuality. Jesus was silent on the matter of homosexuality.

You are trying to abscribe your bias to Jesus.

Jesus is clearly describing marriage in the affirmative. He describes what it is.

You're the one who keeps changing the topic.

I am not changing the topic. I am reading the words in the bible. I am not deciding Jesus meant anything more than he said, like you are. You are putting your words in his mouth.

Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius

Before the thread closes, thank you to JLB and Ed.W for answering my question about the sacramental value of marriage in their respective traditions - for me, at least, it helped to understand the heart behind the process.

My background is Lutheran, and I remember seasoned pastors in Minnesota telling me about the old days, where marriage wasn't called a sacrament, per se, but it was celebrated as one did Baptism. If there was a wedding in the church, the couple had the choice to have the marriage ceremony in fellowship with the entire congregation and as part of the Sunday worship service. Today, they suggest it every now and then - half as a joke, half with hope - and don't get any takers.

Bye, I hope you find peace.

My background is Presbyterrian and I remember in the real old days that a lot of people didn't bother to get married because there was no preacher to do perform a ceremony.

I was not born when there was a war that set free the slaves, I hadn't been born yet when women (and men) fought for the right to vote. I was too young when blacks and whites marched to end segregation. I am alive now and I feel it is my duty to try to end the injustices against gay people.I truly believe that Jesus and Yahweh approve. It does not harm me in any way to give them the same rights I enjoy.

Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius