Which is why we may want to hold our horses on trading DeRozan, or if he is traded we just throw Ross in as the starter certainly he wont be such a liability playing beside Gay, Lowry a vet Big and JV. Ross can be better than all those guys if his 3 is dropping like it was in college plus he is crazy explosive on the attack.

Who is to say DeMar is traded for any of these players? The reason why I went with these players is because they are all easily attainable assuming they wish to play in Toronto (minus Dudley as he is with another team and Martin will likely cost too much).

Your best five is often not the best five players.

The Raptors are a collection of pieces that don't fit together... like Pete Rose:

1st bold - I think you meant to say your best five is often not your five best players - Which may be true - BUT when the game's on the line I always think you should go with your 5 best players (best defender, best rebounder, best scorer, best shooter, etc).

In this current NBA you need stars/talent to win. DD is still a VERY good player. You may not think so, but I believe it's due to Collangelo's team building where EVERYONE on this team seems to be worse because it is just a collection of pieces that don't really fit together.

Instead of Offering OJ Mayo a contract (to play our backup SG/spot starter who can also play some point - BC offers Landry fields an 18 million dollar contract). Instead of then picking Drummond in the draft, we pick T Ross...

Players like Jose, Jarrett Jack or even Bayless received a lot of flack from SOME fans because of decisions our former GM made putting the team together. HOPEFULLY, this will no longer be the case, now that Ujiri is back.

Personally, I think DD, AJ and JV are pieces that we HAVE to hold onto unless we're blown a way with an offer. DD/AJ loves the city and the fans love them.

P.S. Any GM worth his salt should find a way to trade Rudy over Demar. The guy makes twice as much as DD to put up (close to the same numbers). That's a no-brainer.

I'm sorry but they players MATT52 listed above are good shooters, but so was Jason Kapono...... Willie Green?? Are you serious? Please tell me you meant Danny or Jeff. Demar is currently/will be better than ALL of the players you listed above. It's nice when you get to play on the Clippers, Hawks, Thunder.....I wonder how these guys will look playing for the Raptors. Sure MAYBE they may make good fits (debateable)....BUT Do you really expect the Raptors to compete for a championship next year Matt52??

DeMar is not currently the better player of all those. Didn't you click the link I provided? He was at the bottom of 7 statistical categories. Oh sure, he scores the most per game, but what happens if you give those other players 15 shots per game? What happens when you redistribtue DD's shots among Lowry-Gay-JV with floor spacers?

special1 wrote:

What makes you think anyone of those players won't walk when they become free agents?? Do they even want to play in Toronto?? LOL Thats the part that gets me with these posters always throwing around DD's name in trades.

Ummm. They were all free agents except Dudley and Green who is non-guaranteed.

special1 wrote:

Is DD the only good player on this team??
Is he really the ONLY way we can improve our roster?

I would argue that he's our best asset for a reason!! He has a mix of youth/potential/work ethic/scoring ability that NO ONE ELSE on our team has. If he's as horrible as MATT52 makes him out to be - WHY on earth would anyone else want DD??

I think there are a lot of teams who would balk at him. He is extremely overpaid. He is still relatively young but he is hardly cheap. His potential is likely maxed or near maxed unless he is the rare exception of guys who become great many years in to the league but considering he has been given the green light for 3 years I think what you see is what you get so remove the potential label. He definitely has scoring ability but he does it inefficiently - as every player I have listed is much more efficient and all except Green have more PPS.

special1 wrote:

Please keep in mind that MATT52 was begging for the Rudy Gay trade (a guy that's basically a DD clone (with length) and costs twice as much.....lol The Collangelo school of team building at its best.....rash/quick decisions and constant turnover.

Gay was always based on the premise Bargnani was a near all-star... whoops. Bargnani is also a great example of what happens when you expect guys to be more than they are.

special1 wrote:

Why on earth would we trade our best player (debateable) for older bench players / role players??? LOL

Read the post again. Who said anything about trading DeMar for any of these players? LOL

special1 wrote:

Matt52 - If you want to impress me....PLEASE come up with trade scenarios for Bargnani, Fields, Kleiza or even Rudy Gay. That would be very interesting to see. ANY scenario where DD goes and the guys above are still around with a few bench players added would be unacceptable.

I'm not out to impress you, special1.

special1 wrote:

If Fields is as good as you think he is, why can't he fetch us a decent role player or two? Isn't he healed now?

Fields is actually overpaid, haven't you heard? At the end of last season he still wasn't 100%. You think a condition that has been effecting him for nearly 2 years is going to be fixed in 4 months? You don't need biomechanics or physiology courses to figure that out.

1st bold - I think you meant to say your best five is often not your five best players - Which may be true - BUT when the game's on the line I always think you should go with your 5 best players (best defender, best rebounder, best scorer, best shooter, etc).

In this current NBA you need stars/talent to win. DD is still a VERY good player. You may not think so, but I believe it's due to Collangelo's team building where EVERYONE on this team seems to be worse because it is just a collection of pieces that don't really fit together.

Instead of Offering OJ Mayo a contract (to play our backup SG/spot starter who can also play some point - BC offers Landry fields an 18 million dollar contract). Instead of then picking Drummond in the draft, we pick T Ross...

Players like Jose, Jarrett Jack or even Bayless received a lot of flack from SOME fans because of decisions our former GM made putting the team together. HOPEFULLY, this will no longer be the case, now that Ujiri is back.

Personally, I think DD, AJ and JV are pieces that we HAVE to hold onto unless we're blown a way with an offer. DD/AJ loves the city and the fans love them.

P.S. Any GM worth his salt should find a way to trade Rudy over Demar. The guy makes twice as much as DD to put up (close to the same numbers). That's a no-brainer.

You are gone off on numerous tangents. This is what the thread is about, from Chisholm:

An offense centered around Valanciunas-Gay-Lowry could be potent if balanced right, especially if the team could stick a high-percentage three-point shooter into the starting shooting guard spot.

Your bold P.S. - Big picture thinking time: Gay brings more to the table. You continue to focus on strictly points per game. Gay also is a huge expiring contract in 2 years. Can you tell me exactly what DeRozan has done in his time in Toronto to warrant such praise?

All of your questions have been answered before and it is clear you are not reading my posts based on a number of the questions. I've put a lot of trade scenarios up for a lot of different players.

What makes you so emotional towards DeRozan?

I don't believe i'm emotional at all towards DD....I'm actually quite enthusiastic about my team. I live in Toronto and have followed the Raptors since day 1. Actually, they had us help pick the name in school if i remember correctly (Jurassic Park was very popular at the time).

I would gladly trade DD if we can get back an all-star quality player OR a couple of really good young players (unfortunately, not many realistic opportunites come to mind).

I understand you meant purely as a replacement (not necessarily in a trade involving the players) BUT at the same time I dont see why we cant get one of those players and keep DD.... It appears to me that those players are suited to be role players / 6th men type anyways.

Maybe you should read your thread and go over the names you suggest to replace DD with and ask yourself why anyone would be annoyed..... Willie Green?

The truth is many of us like the guy. I think he represents the Raptors well throughout the league. He's definitely far from perfect BUT he works pretty hard. Some of us believe he can get better. Maybe we're just not afraid of another Bargs situation because we notice the difference in the two. Honestly, I really don't know what exactly it is that we see in him that you guys don't. I personally think it would be a big mistake to trade him because i know his biggest flaws are defence and 3 point shooting. Both can be improved upon. I've seen it happen.

Matt it's easy to be very effecient when all you do is take open shot 3s. There is a reason why those players take 8 shots a game. If they did you would those effeciency drop dramatically. With the amount of minutes he plays and amount of shots he takes DD is one of most effecient 2 guards in the league. He shots %45 from the field. How many perimeter players shot over %50 in this league. It's not all about stats and fits. Wade and LeBron do not fit together at all but, they make it work. I don't think the duo of DD/RG are better but, I do think thier a better fit Wade/James.

DeMar is way more of slasher than Rudy is. Rudy plays kind of soft. All his moves to just create enough separation for his shot.

I do think that Rudy Gay's 3 point shot will come back this upcoming season. You have think about his body and psyche has been through the last couple years. He goes through a serious shoulder injury, that has out for a while. The next year he come back but, obviously his psyche off cause of his injury. He lacks confidence in his shot. It probably took him a full season to get back confidence. You think last summer he will work on his body to get back to form but, than women(grandmother) who raised him falls ill. The whole summer than becomes about her. Going into the season his grandmother's condition worsen in till she finally dies at the beginning of the season. Instead of having time to mourn like regular ppl he has to go perform when his mentally checkout. He finally gets trade and gets away from Memphis(where his grandmother lived with him in his home). The little things that would remind them of her are now gone. His able to focus to the task at hand more.

Now his gotten laser eye surgery to fix his version problem. I for one will really be surprised if Rudy shots under 35% from the the 3 this up and coming year.

to Me Rudy is confident in what he is DeMar never is guy is always looking to improve. Rudy still isnt working out or anything preparing for next season DeMar and Ross are. DeMar hitting 3s decently 31% or so the organization has to look at Rudy as the asset on the table to be traded. Ujiri stressed youth so Im pretty sure guys like DeMar, Ross, JV, Amir are safe I can see him grabbing some picks soon for this draft.

DeMar has been solid in his tenure its not his fault why the Raps suck, for the past 4 years hes been the only guy worth following the team for hes a guy surrounded by scrubs till most recently. DeMar is probably the only player the US media even knew about over here.

Matt it's easy to be very effecient when all you do is take open shot 3s. There is a reason why those players take 8 shots a game. If they did you would those effeciency drop dramatically. With the amount of minutes he plays and amount of shots he takes DD is one of most effecient 2 guards in the league. He shots %45 from the field. How many perimeter players shot over %50 in this league. It's not all about stats and fits. Wade and LeBron do not fit together at all but, they make it work. I don't think the duo of DD/RG are better but, I do think thier a better fit Wade/James.

But are we to knock the guys for taking wide open 3's because they have the ability to? That is the issue here. DD has not shown the ability to knock down these shots and create the spacing needed for others. This thread is not directly about DeRozan. It is about plugging in the holes around Lowry, Gay, and JV. I still have not seen one post that highlights what DeRozan can do besides score inefficiently with long 2's being his bread and butter (3rd in attempts of 16-24 feet and 139th in percentage made).

Your highlight on straight field goal percentage misses the entire point of efficiency with eFG% and TS%. You will find DD (and Gay) at the bottom of the league there.

I disagree with the not all about stats and fits. It actually is. To this I would also add value. There is nothing about DeRozan that offers value. I disagree Wade and LBJ do not fit together. They fit together because they are uber talented and multidimensional. Both rebound, create, score, and defend. If DD is not scoring on his long 2's or getting to the free throw line, what does he do for you?

Chr1s1anL wrote:

DeMar is way more of slasher than Rudy is. Rudy plays kind of soft. All his moves to just create enough separation for his shot.

I do think that Rudy Gay's 3 point shot will come back this upcoming season. You have think about his body and psyche has been through the last couple years. He goes through a serious shoulder injury, that has out for a while. The next year he come back but, obviously his psyche off cause of his injury. He lacks confidence in his shot. It probably took him a full season to get back confidence. You think last summer he will work on his body to get back to form but, than women(grandmother) who raised him falls ill. The whole summer than becomes about her. Going into the season his grandmother's condition worsen in till she finally dies at the beginning of the season. Instead of having time to mourn like regular ppl he has to go perform when his mentally checkout. He finally gets trade and gets away from Memphis(where his grandmother lived with him in his home). The little things that would remind them of her are now gone. His able to focus to the task at hand more.

Now his gotten laser eye surgery to fix his version problem. I for one will really be surprised if Rudy shots under 35% from the the 3 this up and coming year.

I'm not sure how we can quantify how "way more" of a slasher DD is than Gay. According to stats.nba.com, Gay takes 7.1 shots in the paint per game with DeRozan taking 5.7.

I have no question there should be an improvement in Gay next season. Between his shoulder, his eyes, his grandmother, his fit in Memphis both on and off court, there are a whole host of reasons for him to improve assuming he puts the work in this summer. It is also why I think he is more valuable of a player than DD.

If Rudy does improve his shooting doesn't that fix the fit issue? You have to give DD credit. His improved his all around game this year. After the trade he average more than 3 assist the rest of the way. He more than just a one dimentional scorer. His become away better passer and rebounder. That all comes from experience and chemistry.

I don't agree with anymore arguments of saying Rudy & DeMar fit, cause they don't. As all of you mostly know, I'm a big fan (yes, a homer) of DeMar, but I no longer have tried to defend him because whilst he improves, works hard, and has some great games, his defense is still sub-par, the improvements are marginal, and he's an inefficient player with no outside shot and a bad finisher for someone known as a slasher. Jesus Christ his ball-handling is barely better than my brother's, and even DeMar has improved his ball-handling (meaning it was below trash last season).

DeMar is a player that needs to have plays ran for him to score, and on the fast break. When you have two players that also excel in the low-post on the wing (bad outside shooters), JV and Amir also getting a lot of their points in the paint, there's no spacing, that itself is enough to garner they just don't fit. Their game-styles are also similar; redundant. One of Rudy, sitting Ross (three point shooter, offensive rebound, defense), Fields (defense, rebounding, off-ball offense, potential to re-develop 3 point shot) and or a 3-&-D type player at the shooting guard, are a lot better fits to allow spacing, development for JV, and better defense.

The offense would be a lot better in terms of spacing, more opportunities, more shots, and better ball-movement with one less, inefficient, ball-needing player. We're cutting nearly 7-8 shots off, and spreading that around, instead of one player making that many, and missing that many.
Defense would easily improve, Ross & Fields are miles better on-ball defenders, Ross has his troubles within a system, but there's potential.

I'm not sure how we can quantify how "way more" of a slasher DD is than Gay. According to stats.nba.com, Gay takes 7.1 shots in the paint per game with DeRozan taking 5.7.

Who gets to the line more? Rudy like to elevate in the paint and shot over defenders than actually go the whole way to the rim.[/QUOTE]

DeMar does. 5.2 attempts to 4.2.

I'm not sure what going all the way to the rim does when 7footers just stand up straight and wait for him to try to hang. I can't believe after 4 years he has not figured out you can't out hang a 7footer standing straight up/arms up.

I don't agree with anymore arguments of saying Rudy & DeMar fit, cause they don't. As all of you mostly know, I'm a big fan (yes, a homer) of DeMar, but I no longer have tried to defend him because whilst he improves, works hard, and has some great games, his defense is still sub-par, the improvements are marginal, and he's an inefficient player with no outside shot and a bad finisher for someone known as a slasher. Jesus Christ his ball-handling is barely better than my brother's, and even DeMar has improved his ball-handling (meaning it was below trash last season).

DeMar is a player that needs to have plays ran for him to score, and on the fast break. When you have two players that also excel in the low-post on the wing (bad outside shooters), JV and Amir also getting a lot of their points in the paint, there's no spacing, that itself is enough to garner they just don't fit. Their game-styles are also similar; redundant. One of Rudy, sitting Ross (three point shooter, offensive rebound, defense), Fields (defense, rebounding, off-ball offense, potential to re-develop 3 point shot) and or a 3-&-D type player at the shooting guard, are a lot better fits to allow spacing, development for JV, and better defense.

The offense would be a lot better in terms of spacing, more opportunities, more shots, and better ball-movement with one less, inefficient, ball-needing player. We're cutting nearly 7-8 shots off, and spreading that around, instead of one player making that many, and missing that many.
Defense would easily improve, Ross & Fields are miles better on-ball defenders, Ross has his troubles within a system, but there's potential.

If Rudy does improve his shooting doesn't that fix the fit issue? You have to give DD credit. His improved his all around game this year. After the trade he average more than 3 assist the rest of the way. He more than just a one dimentional scorer. His become away better passer and rebounder. That all comes from experience and chemistry.

I don't think it does fix the issue. You still have $9.5M tied up in a guy who only scores and takes the majority of his shots from the least efficient place on the court.

He averaged 3 assists the rest of the way but did he consistently give you 3 assists? Look at his game log. How many times did he get trapped with nowhere to go and made an easily stolen pass? Of the players I listed per48mins Redick, Dunleavy, and Dudley have more assists and Korver is 0.1 less. In terms of league average for his position according to theNBAGeek.com the average for a SG is 4.6ast/48, SF 3.3, and GF is 4.1 - DD is 3.2.

He averaged 3.9 rebounds this year but in the first 2 months of the year he averaged 5 rebounds while the rest of the year he averaged much closer to 3. Of the players I listed per48mins Dunleavy, Korver, and Dudley have more rebounds per48 and DD's 5.1 comes in at league average.