I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's Park. Then the Brahman Unnabha went to where Ven. Ananda was staying and on arrival greeted him courteously. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Ananda: "Master Ananda, what is the aim of this holy life lived under Gotama the contemplative?"

"Brahman, the holy life is lived under the Blessed One with the aim of abandoning desire."

"Is there a path, is there a practice, for the abandoning of that desire?"

"Yes, there is a path, there is a practice, for the abandoning of that desire."

"What is the path, the practice, for the abandoning of that desire?"

"Brahman, there is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrications of exertion. He develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on persistence... concentration founded on intent... concentration founded on discrimination & the fabrications of exertion. This, Brahman, is the path, this is the practice for the abandoning of that desire."

"If that's so, Master Ananda, then it's an endless path, and not one with an end, for it's impossible that one could abandon desire by means of desire."

"In that case, brahman, let me question you on this matter. Answer as you see fit. What do you think: Didn't you first have desire, thinking, 'I'll go to the park,' and then when you reached the park, wasn't that particular desire allayed?"

"Yes, sir."

"Didn't you first have persistence, thinking, 'I'll go to the park,' and then when you reached the park, wasn't that particular persistence allayed?"

"Yes, sir."

"Didn't you first have the intent, thinking, 'I'll go to the park,' and then when you reached the park, wasn't that particular intent allayed?"

"Yes, sir."

"Didn't you first have [an act of] discrimination, thinking, 'I'll go to the park,' and then when you reached the park, wasn't that particular act of discrimination allayed?"

"Yes, sir."

"So it is with an arahant whose mental effluents are ended, who has reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who is released through right gnosis. Whatever desire he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular desire is allayed. Whatever persistence he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular persistence is allayed. Whatever intent he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular intent is allayed. Whatever discrimination he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular discrimination is allayed. So what do you think, brahman? Is this an endless path, or one with an end?"

"You're right, Master Ananda. This is a path with an end, and not an endless one. Magnificent, Master Ananda! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has Master Ananda — through many lines of reasoning — made the Dhamma clear. I go to Master Gotama for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha of monks. May Master Ananda remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge, from this day forward, for life."

This sutta is often quoted as a sort of defence against non-practitioners with philosophical tendencies who think that a desire for desirelessness is some sort of logical or psychological impossibility. Unnabha seems to be the prototype for this sort of person. I assume that the wholesome desire which forms part of the iddhipada is chanda; but can any Pali specialists tell us the term for the desire which is to be abandoned in this sutta? Is it also chanda? If it were tanha or some other term than chanda, the distinction in the Pali would make the point without need of further explanation. A bit like saying in English that we need zeal to get rid of lust. This might be a psychological impossibility, but it is clearly not a logical impossibility.

It is interesting how the chanda is nested within the iddhipada. Thanissaro talks here of a base of power which is endowed with concentration; which is founded upon (in one case only) desire; and the fabrications of exertion. Bhikkhu Bodhi's rendering seems to have the same meaning with slightly different words:

the basis for spiritual power that possesses concentration due to desire (in the one case) and volitional formations of striving.

This leaves it open as to whether one, or all, of the four iddhipada are required for the goal of desirelessness. If so, then chanda and viriya are relatively easy to understand; but vimamsa is a bit more difficult for me because I can't remember seeing it elsewhere. (I think I have heard a talk by Ajahn Thanissaro where he portrays this as the ability to mindfully monitor one's practice and assess how well one is doing - a bit like listening to oneself when making progress with a musical instrument, or an artist stepping back from the canvas to judge the effect). Does anyone have any thoughts as to how it might differ from wisdom? And citta is always hard, because it doesn't fit squarely with western concepts of mind.. Thanissaro has "intent", which puts it somewhere near persistence and desire. BB has "mind" which is much more open as to what he means. Again, can anyone throw light on this?

BB asserts in his notes to this samyutta that there are four distinct iddhipada, differentiated by the factors responsible for generating the concentration. This may well be the case, but on the other hand the sutta supports the view that there is only really one type of power being talked about here: concentration. It is always the result of a fabrication of exertion (i.e. dependent upon making an effort) but the concentration needs the four different mental activities to support it. The factors themselves seem to be the iddhipada, rather than being one aspect of an iddhipada.

Hmm, and yet in AN 4.159, taṇhā is described as a legit mechanism to overcome taṇhā -

Taṇhāsambhuto ayaṃ bhagini kāyo, taṇhaṃ nissāya taṇhā pahātabbā

This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned

Where do we see such a craving recommended? In SN 22.55, a subtle form of craving is recommended as the way to Non-Return -

...a monk set on this — 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me' — would break the [five] lower fetters."

Pls see BB's notes to the aspiration "It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me". It's a modified and Buddhist version of the annihilationist's craving for non-being.

For a clue as to why this craving leads only to Non-Return, perhaps MN 64 could explain. There, an explanation is given for why a person breaks through to full awakening, versus the one who attains Non-Return. The latter is owing to the presence of dhammarāga dhammanandī. It's unclear if the dhamma here refers to the Dhamma or to states.

Interesting, I always thought there was a kind of wholesome desire (chanda) and unwholesome desire (tanha), but I was, yet again, wrong.

I think there is a very clear distinction between tanha and chanda, so please don't draw that conclusion from the above.

I think the sutta is saying that although the goal itself (nibbana) is without chanda, we need to use chanda in order to get there. A desire for a state in which there is no desire is wholesome, not unwholesome.

Sam Vara wrote:I think there is a very clear distinction between tanha and chanda,

I did not mean to say otherwise. Simply that the similarities and differences between the two are not necessarily what I thought they were. The real point of my post was simply to thank you two for showing me something that needs further investigation.