I'm new to this board (and a first time GWP owner) as well and need to ask about a theme which seems to have come out in some of the posts in the Field section. I guess some of this is also along the line of Wiscobob's question.

It sounds like there's not only some dissension between show and field folks but also NAVHDA and AKC people? I'm assumming this comes out of the different testing formats, but is it over-generalizing the matter to say the AKC hunt tests are too much like (or are) field trials and the NAVHDA tests better simulate hunting conditions? Are there lines or dogs which could do well in both or has GWP breeding been directed towards success in a particular test format?

I'm way up here in Alaska without access to either NAVHDA or AKC, but I'm thinking about travelling to do so. My dog is from the Sure Shot and Cascade lines if that makes any difference. Would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this.

I get the same feeling. However I don't see the NAVHDA and AKC stuff, in fact I think many people do both in an attempt to verify the natural ability of their dog and if it is of breeding quality. NAVHDA is in fact recognized in AKC testing with the new water work standards placed on GWP' as you go for SH and MH titles. At least this is what I get from what I have read.

Field and Show yea I get the impression they don't get along. And what is so funny is that everything I have read is that this breed has not really diverged along breed and show lines very much. IMHO it is just what an individual owner enjoys doing with his dog. I am sure I will get slammed for that comment.

Most here will try to sell you on what they do and what they think is the right way to raise, breed and train a dog. Find what is right for you is the best advice I can give. And if it means anything I plan on looking into all avenues of testing, AKC, UKC and NAVHDA. Why well because hunting season is only so long. And walks in the woods get boring after a while._________________Bob

Don't be dissuaded from pursuing any goals with your dog based on what a few naysays will tell you. AKC is what it is... a registry and they have their own set of activities for the dogs. NAVHDA is what it is, and they have their own set of activities. Many of us pursue both, some only one, and other neither.

I don't care what activity you get involved in, there will always be the "us vs them" theme out there, but in the long run , do what you enjoy, can afford and are able to do.

These are dogs, our hobby, our sport, believe it or not, to some people there are more important things. Some people take themselves waaaaaayyyyy to seriously.

Relatively few dogs and breeders truly pursue NAVHDA testing and producing the versatile dog. Of the 1300+/- GWPs whelped every year probably less than 3-5% ever get to a UT test. I doubt there are five UT dogs among the GWPCA membership. The movers and shakers within the breed club are not friendly towards NAVHDA. IMO, it is because the club culture hates quantitative evaluations.

Dual may encourage you to pursue all games but there is very little crossover between NAVHDA and AKC dogs. The AKC (FT and Hunt test) for the most part considers the NAVHDA dogs to be second class in that they don't run in field trials (which the breed was never intended for!). (As we all know, NAVHDA dogs are all bootlicking, weak pointing, fur chasers!!) As proof of my contention, try to find the Windridge, Barbwire, Roosterridge, Bachman, etc. names in any of the pedigrees of AKC performance dogs. The NAVHDA crowd is suspicious of the AKC crowd because FT dogs are specialists and unproven in other versatile abilities. (They also tend to be small, fine and white, which is not to everyone's liking). FT dogs have been used in NAVHDA programs but generally with disappointing results. You can order test results from the NAVDHA office to research these.

Forget show lines - there my be an occasional gun dog from these lines but there is little if any genetic strength as far as working ability. But the big show lines seem to be dwindling - which is a good thing.

The real concern is that the breed is fractured into groups that pursue their definition of the breed which means a small genepool is divided into different ego groups. The breed club is most interested in dogs shows and field trials - and believes that a good FT dog by definition will be a good versatile dog, which of course everyone knows is true _________________Jon P

for someone who states over and over again that they are no longer interestd in or wish to be involved with the AKC GWP, you certainly waste an awful lot of your time here telling all of us just how poor we are.

Jon, you prove my point exactly, some people take themselves and their opinions waaaaaayyyyyy too seriously. I can't for the life of me figure out what your goals are... get everyone to purchase VDD dogs and stay away from GWPs?

Get over yourself Jon, we know your opinion, you have told us over and over and over again. Go to the VDD board and help those guys! I'm sure they will appreciate your knowledge.

And why is it so difficult for you to understand that the GWPCA is an AKC affiliated club and we live by AKC rules and therefore include AKC events within our framework. I don't see NAHVDA giving credit for any AKC titles, ;why would they? So why would we? Our magazine discusses NAVHDA events and encourages folks to go out and see for themselves. We do not give annual awards to dogs who receive titles from other events if they are not AKC events. It's not a conspiracy like you seem to spout... you are like an old violin that only knows one tune.... but the song is getting old.

I have had my gwp for almost a year now. He has his JH title. The way I look at it, is the hunt tests are fun for my dog and I. I am never going get into breeding. I just like going out there and training him to hunt. I want him to have "good hunting manners" and to hunt without screaming at him all day. Training him for the AKC hunt tests seem to be the best thing for me.

I want to check out NAVHDA some time this year. And maybe get invlved in their testing too._________________www.fdgwpc.org

Thanks for your thoughts. I have had labs exclusively for about 25 years and ONE of the reasons I got a GWP was because I think the "fracturing" in the Lab has gotten completely out of hand. As you're probably aware, there are now FT labs built like pointers, pointing labs which can look like anything as long as they point, "English" labs that are blocky beyond use and so on. Sure the breed is more popular than ever, but IMO, congenital health issues run rampant and the breed standard is a farce.

I'm getting a sense for the fracturing issues in GWP and finding out more was part of the reason for my questions. Maybe I'm oversimplfying the matter but it seems to me that if breeders breed strictly with the breed standard in mind, that it really doesn't matter WHAT people choose to do with them or how they choose test them. Sure people are going to breed for the instincts and characteristics they want to perpetuate and certain breeders will be known for producing dogs with particular traits, but the breed won't get lost in the process.

Maybe in some folks' opinion the fracturing is too far along already for such an idea? I have never seen a VDD. Are they that different from a GWP looks-wise and are there differences in the official breed standards for appearance/conformation for each?

Probably because most breeders are more interested in pursuing game and producing hunting dogs.

Quote:

I doubt there are five UT dogs among the GWPCA membership.

I'm pretty sure that I could find 5 VC's if I had a current list, or did you mean 5 UT I with a CH title?

Quote:

try to find the Windridge, Barbwire, Roosterridge, Bachman, etc. names in any of the pedigrees of AKC performance dogs.

You won't find these kennel names in many trial dog's pedigrees because these kennels have only been around for about 6-7 years and as far as I know, no one is trialing these lines. Why would a field trialer breed to one of these dogs if they have never seen or heard of them?

Quote:

FT dogs have been used in NAVHDA programs but generally with disappointing results. You can order test results from the NAVDHA office to research these.

Off of the top of my head, I can think of 5 GWP VC's that were sired by AKC field trial dogs. What is so disappointing about that? While NAVHDA will be able to give you all of the test results for the GWP's tested in the last 10 years, they won't be able to differentiate between the FT lines and the versatile lines.

akwire,

There is no reason that you can't find a GWP that is capable of playing all of the games, but you will definitely have to do your homework. I would have recommended Side-by-Side Kennels, but I don't think he's breeding GWP's anymore.

I've been fairly successful in AKC Hunt Test and Field Trials with my NAVHDA bred dogs, and my field trial/show bred dog earned a UT I on his first attempt. I've been told by several people that they could finish in the show ring, but I really have no interest in ever playing that silly game again. I bought these dogs to hunt with and that will always come first, but the games are fun to play in the off season and I've met a lot of great people at these events.

Your insincere...most of the issues I have raised in public, you and your cohorts will agree to in private - as you ride off to your next Nationals to laud show dogs and FT dogs. You are as perplexed about where to go for good genetics as anyone else. Every year you relate that once again there was nothing exciting to see (in the way of serious breeding pool) at the Nationals but yet you and your cronies pursue the same course. The membership is not producing solid, substantial, hard coated versatile performance dogs. The proof of any breed stewardship is the health and size of the quality genepool. Tell us about it....

The AKC is a registry. If you let it dictate what your dogs and your organization may do, then the AKC will dictate the future of your breed. Not you. That is why the FT and show games have had such a terrible effect on the size and abilities of the GWP. Made up coats in the ring and little, fine boned dogs running around in the field - like Ruby (that was the name you were looking for, wasn't it - as if you didn't know which dog I meant). The past couple of years have brough a few more 50-55 lb male winners. WIN at any cost.

Tony,

Please name the VCs and UT 1 owned by GWPCA members. What % of the club membership do these owners represent? I rest my case - the official breed club is not the place for folks who are truly interested in versatile dogs. Field trialing rules in the GWPCA - run and gun!!!
Please name 10 LIVING top quality stud dogs - exclude dogs with bad bites, soft coats, no furnishings, thyroid disease (or familial history), other genetic disease, and those that have never retrieved 5 ducks in their lives. Dogs over 60 lbs would be nice since that is the bottom of the standard. Which come from litters that have produced an overall high degree of talent and good genetics? A single good dog now and then is not the measure of successful breeding.

You too are blowing smoke - you know what's going on in this breed. I've called you over the years looking for stud dog info - you never had ONE name to give me because you knew I was looking for a dog of substance, ability, with coat and some giddy-up. You never gave me ONE name...

The only time progress will be made in this breed is when folks get honest, look around and decide to stop BSing themselves.

Akwire,
The difference between DD and GWP is quite simple. The DD is bred to the original standard and as a versatile dog. 100% of puppies come from qualified versatile dogs, 50% of the breeding stock have gone through advanced testing and evaluation, also in coat and conformation. Nearly 100% of DD in this country are hunted. There are NO show dogs. There are a dozen solid prepotent breeding lines. The GWP is bred for whatever will win, but primarily as a retreiving field dog. Constant outcrossing of pets to performance, etc has led nowhere for the most part. The recognized performance dogs are generally smaller and finer boned, few have decent coats. There are no prepotent breeding lines. Relatively few of the total yearly production come from breeding stock that can show generations of tested and qualified dogs as with the DD. Most importantly, if you are truly interetsed in versatile dogs, you will be talking to yourself at most GWPCA functions. The official breed club (as you can clearly read from Tony's post) regards versatile aspirations as second class. Furthermore, (and to quote a shaker and mover in the GWPCA), most of the membership, " wouldn't know a versatile dog if they fell over it!!" Did you notice that the question to this list about tracking and game recovery got NO responses from this list. Are you are expecting to track wounded big game in AK?

Dual, just to please you I will exit this list. There is not much more of interest here. If anyone wants to speak with me and wants to hear a realistic opinion of the state of the GWP, they know where to reach me.
I return control of your TV set to you - now you can spin it however you want. Saddle the horses...._________________Jon P

I was in NAVHDA but became disillusioned with the whole organization. I admire the DD organization and have great respect for their dedication to the all around hunting dog. Most of the members of my local NAVHDA chapter were shorthair owners. And when I look at the dogs represented at the invitational national event I see a disproportionate number of shorthairs. Yet when I go duck hunting, which I do every year all season on public land, I have yet to run into one other hunter with a shorthair and I have seen a lot of other hunters. No serious duck hunter would choose a shorthair over a wirehair for cold weather duck hunting. The shorter coat and the more hyper "pointer like" nature of the dogs makes them less suited for real duck hunting. And they don't. I look at NAVHDA as more of an organization dedicated to warm weather exhibitions than real versatile hunters. It is a big show. When I visited these shorthairs owners websites I saw very few references to duck hunting. But when I went to the DD websites I saw a big interest in versatile hunting. Many photos of successfull duck hunts and big game tracking. I was a member of NAVHDA when my last pup was eligible for his natural ability test. And this pup would have passed easily. But I didn't take him. I don't think the test proves anything about real natural ability for all around hunting. To basic and to easy. I wish I had DD's. Then I could get together with only wirehair owners that were really dedicated to the versatile gun dog. Guys that really hunted ducks, upland, small game and big game with their dogs. Total dogs.

9 dogs with either VC's or UT 1 that are owned by gwpca members. I am sure there are more, am awaiting my 5 yr test results. Please notice that 4 of these VC's are sired by AKC Field Champions. Hmmm, pretty sorry lot.

I'm sure there are more, but I only listed the dogs that were owned by GWPCA members listed in the 2003 Membership Roster. If I had the 2003 Test Results, researched another 5 years, and checked past Membership Rosters, I'm sure I could at least double this list.

Jon P wrote:

You too are blowing smoke - you know what's going on in this breed. I've called you over the years looking for stud dog info - you never had ONE name to give me because you knew I was looking for a dog of substance, ability, with coat and some giddy-up. You never gave me ONE name...

That's because I knew you were looking for a show dog, not a bird dog.

Jon P wrote:

The official breed club (as you can clearly read from Tony's post) regards versatile aspirations as second class.

I read my post again, and it isn't clear to me.

Jon P wrote:

Did you notice that the question to this list about tracking and game recovery got NO responses from this list. Are you are expecting to track wounded big game in AK?

I don't know what the fine would be, but I'm sure that it is illegal to use dogs to hunt big game in Iowa and several other states.

A few more after looking at the dogs eligible to run in the 2004 Invitational:

UT1 - Wingmaster's Brisk Autumn - John Crozier

UT1 - Three Devil's Agape - Jeff Funke

UT1 - Chinoock Winds Cypress - Kelly Jobes

UT1 - Ch Autumn Fire's Max Ballenberg - Mark Gebhart

I'm not sure if the following two people joined the national club but the do belong to the TCGWPC (the Twin Cities club)

UT1 - Blackbriar's Angel Hannah - Bob Brittan

UT1 - Ida Hill's Remington Country - Tim Schultz

So based on an estimate of 14 names per page, 23 pages in the 2003 registry we have about 322 members. Of them 17 (approximately 5%) own UT1 dogs, 27 dogs total. There are 49 (if I counted correctly) GWPs qualified for the Invitational, of that number I'd estimate at least half are actually DD's, wish NAVHDA would differentiate but it doesn't. Therefore of ~25 wires qualified 5, possibly 7, belong to current GWPCA members so between 20-30% belong to our membership. A higher number than I would have guessed.

My main problem with Jon's assertions would be that he should be just as scathing to all the GWP NAVHDA/Hunt test/Hunters that breed and don't join the GWPCA. It's a little tiresome to go to assorted web sites and listen to them go on & on about the AKC show people or field trialers ruining the breed. The fact is that the GWPCA DOES dictate what is happening with our breed and if you don't join you're saying "I DON'T CARE." If all the hunters & NAVHDA members I know that own GWPs would join the GWPCA we'd have a strong voice in the club but they perfer to sit on the sidelines and whine. In my opinion the problem isn't the current GWPCA membership - it's the current GWPCA non-membership.

I belong to NAVHDA to test my dogs, I belong to the GWPCA to have a voice in my dogs.

Deb Finstad
Hunter (not a great hunter but I try)
NAVHDA Member
GWPCA Member

AKC Hunt Tests aren’t really like field trials. In hunt tests, dogs are expected to work at a reasonable range and in cooperation with the handler. Range, speed, and style are not judged as critically as in field trials. An AKC Hunt Test is meant to simulate upland bird hunting situations and primarily judges a dog’s ability to find and handle birds, but does not test the versatile qualities of the dog. Therefore, all breeds of pointing dogs have an opportunity to do well. I have only run my dogs at the MH level, and I enjoy it. The biggest problem I have found is the inconsistency in the judging. There are some good judges, but I have also seen some of the judges, even at the MH level, that don’t seem particularly knowledgeable when it comes to reading a dog’s performance.

On the other hand, NAVHDA is an organization whose membership is pretty much dedicated to promoting, testing, breeding, and training versatile dogs regardless of which versatile breed it is. The Natural Ability Test is designed to test a pup’s innate versatile traits (pointing, desire, tracking, love of water, nose, and to a degree, cooperation). The Utility Test is for the “finished” dog. It tests desire, drive, use of nose, steadiness, retrieve, obedience, and cooperation on both land and in the water. It is a long test, and does a pretty good job of testing the versatile capabilities of the dog.

It is true that most chapters have more members with GSPs than any other breed and that more GSPs go to the Invitational than any other breed. That is because more people own GSPs than any other versatile breeds, so it would only stand to reason that you would see more of them represented. NAVHDA is not breed biased, and all versatile breeds are equally welcome. In fact, you will find that GWPs are well represented among the NAVHDA membership. And, as you can see from some of the other posts, they do well and earn their fair share of UT I and VC titles. So, don’t let yourself be swayed by those who inaccurately and negatively portray the organization and its membership.

Even if you have no desire to get into testing, I would encourage you to join a NAVHDA chapter. There are usually some very knowledgeable trainers among the membership of most chapters would be willing to share their knowledge and training expertise with you, and help you turn your puppy into a good, well mannered, versatile hunting dog.

Congratulations are in order to these folks and their dogs for their work and dedication to the versatile dog. I apologize- it appears that as much as 8% of the GWPCA membership has serious intentions as far as versatile dogs and dogwork. BUT, the FT mafia still controls the Nationals A quick glance at this list seems to show a fairly weak genetic breadth which is why I constantly get calls for help. (Just an aside - 322 GWPCA members? Roughly 1000 GWP owners in NAVHDA and 700 VDD members - what's happening? It would appear the GWPCA is becoming superfluous )

Just to prove a point - fully 40% of these dogs that you have listed are substantialy from imported lines and not from domestic lines. Put that together with the VDD dogs that qualify for the INV. (roughly half as Deb estimates) and I think the readers can quickly figure out where the versatile dogs are and where the dedication comes from. By the way, the VDD produced an average of 375 pups a year in North America - there are 1300 Akc pups a year. If y'all are looking for a versatile dog, might want to look at the odds.

One correction for you knowledgeable versatile enthusiasts(who went scurrying to your publications to come up with names of dogs you don't know and care less about) - VC Adel vom Horans Bauernhof MH (a 100% VDD pedigree) has been dead for some time now. Glad to hear y'all keep up to date with the better versatile dogs out there. I guess John and Cheryl forgot to mention that during your conversations He died on the evening he completed his MH, put to sleep after the discovery of late stage cancer. A tough dog that more folks should have known about.

Tony,

You keep sniping that I'm looking for show dogs - not quite accurate. I look for performance dogs that also look good, are well coated and conformed. The fact that you knew that and couldn't come up with ONE name over the years speaks volumes. But the better quesation is why aren't you interested in the same? Tony - do us a favor and put a pic of Bo vom Rahnhaus on this list for the lurkers so they can get a gander at the kind of dogs your touting

For those that want to see the difference in performance dogs between Germany and the US and why most consider the two breeds to have diverged, I refer you to (link removed by Admin) If you see any resemblance to domestic performance lines, let me know (clan.prescott@earthlink.com). For the lurkers - the stud dogs on this site are examples of the original breed - note the lack of white, lack of fluff and that males look like males, etc. These dogs are not show dogs, they are all working versatile gundogs as well as having been proven to bloodtrack, retrieve all found dead game, duck search, etc. This is just one of many such kennels. FT enthusiasts will be sorry to hear that (besides being to masculine), these dogs are all over 65 lbs and therefore unsuitable for racing in front of horses. Proponents of fuzzies, whippets, males that look like bitches, and folks that don't give a rats a%$ what a dog looks like, need not apply.

Akwire - it should be fairly well obvious by now that there is indeed a split between the AKC and NAVHDA camps. The (arguably) most successful versatile kennel in the country, the Croziers (GWPCA members?), recently went on a search for new genetics. They cross registered a VDD stud dog which, I think, says it all. It should also be obvious that the folks arguing on this list don't know anything about the dogs they have listed here- these dogs aren't even on their radar screen, with the exception of Tony, who is an engaged GWP scholar (all the more astounding that he couldn't come up with some decent stud dog recommendations).

Y'all may have the last shot....I'm off to go training. You can spin it anyway you want cuz I am done here now. The day folks start working together and looking at the standard and the heritage of this breed instead of what they want to make it, maybe you'll see some genepool develop._________________Jon P