My original intention was to use a Tubeguru.hu preamplifier to drive my Torii 3, but truth be told the expensive pre brought very little to the table in a brief demo this past weekend.

The Torii already has the low end impach, harmonic richmess, transparancy, texture and staging ability I would want aa pre to bring. The only thing I'm wanting for is a splash morre emotion, which is the one area my prior rig (Shindo pre/845 set) had the edge over the Torii.

That said, I suspect I can coax it out with tube rolling, but I am curious as to whether this is why some adopted pres or if the majority prefer to use it as an integrated.

Well. . . I use a CSP2 for two of my sources with the Torii. The CSP2 is a very dynamic beast, and the adjustable output for each channel is a very good tool to coax the best out of a component, or tame or spice up a recording.

I agree that the Torii alone is absolutely fine on its own, and I think with tube rolling you can add a bit of romance to the Torii by itself. There are two main reasons I use the CSP2 with the Torii. One is that one of my sources has a very low output and the boost I can add from the CSP2 brings it up to par with my other two sources. The other reason is that I listen to many many recordings and I don't select recordings on their recording quality but on the music within. The CSP2 allows me to adjust and tailor the sound of the playback somewhat, livelying up some, taming down others, etc. It's a very versatile component that I've spent years both learning to use and enjoying the use of.

I've really not tried any other preamp with the Torii other than an 'eighties Hafler preamp with two phono inputs that I plug in every now and then for a turntable. I have a sesne that with the Torii, only the best preamps need apply for use. Certainly I consider the CSP2 a worthy candidate.

I don't know if this will help, but I am using a Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE preamp with great success. In addition to great sound, I had to have remote functionality as I sit about 10 feet from my electronics and none of my sources have actual volume controls.

The STP-SE is transparent to a fault and is essentially noiseless. I really like how the volume control works.

Up until now I have been using a Squeezebox Touch with a Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2 as a front end. Next week I will be replacing the Touch with a Sonore Music Server. I expect this will be a quantum improvement in sound quality over the Touch. For $2000, it should be.

Gopher, if you want a remote, and are using digital sources, I'd consider the PS Audio PerfectWave DAC. It puts out quite a bit of voltage, adjustable via digital volume control. If you keep the volume above 50 percent, certainly 65 and above, you don't lose any "resolution" and it's plenty output for the Torii. It matches up with the Torii very well and it gives a very good sound straight into the Torii. It is an excellent DAC, when broken in it's the most analog sounding DAC I've ever heard. And it would offer you remote switching of digital sources, switching between various over-sampling choices or non-oversampling, and six different filters and phase inversion.

Otherwise I personally feel the CSP2 is superb with the Torii. In the future I may buy a new Mapleshade rack which would allow me rack space to add the CSP2 back into the system, and shell out the money for the excellent cabling it deserves. I sort of miss it in the system, it's the ultimate "futzing" tool with its output gain controls (and the new model has input gain controls). And it definitely adds magic to the sound. I'm very impressed with the CSP2. I may end up selling mine because it may be long time before I could use it again, and it really needs to be used. But I'd really miss if I did. This is a fantastic preamp.

The Wyred is an interesting preamp I may look into more closely. I know it received a number of awards and was on my radar at one point. Maybe I'll buy one if a good price comes up and re-sell it if it doesn't work out.

Lon,

Thanks for the suggestion, but I've got no desire to leave my digital front end. I'm using a Bolder modified Eastern Electric DAC w/ a 1950s Mullard Longplate 12au7, Bolder SB Touch and Bolder PSU. I have my doubts that the PS audio would be able to hang with what I've got going.

I have no doubt the CSP2 is a great match and enhances the SQ, and I am curious about it, but it doesn't satisfy my want for a remote... but more magic is always nice.

Yeah, Gopher, I have to agree with Lon. Nothing wrong with what you are running, and what Bolder does for the EE DAC is quite impressive, but the technology behind PSA's Digital Lens is in another league. The EE DAC unmodded is very good, and modded, maybe one of the better DACs in the sub-2k range, arguably a much better value than the superficially similar Wavelength Cosecant. I believe the EE uses the same chipset as my Oppo BDP-95, and it is indeed very, very good. But the chip is not the endgame of DAC design.

I have now heard the PSA up against the Weiss, Ayre, Cosecant, and Metric Halo units, all of which were on my list. I cannot say it was no contest, but the differences among the others were so close, I wasn't sure I could discern them, even with the MH running over FireWire and the Ayre and Wyred running asynchronous; the PWD is different, and I think it is the Lens that makes all the difference. And while I think the MSB Platinum DAC is a bit better, not enough to justify the price differential. My other combo of the Cullen-modded PSA DAL III, plus the Audiophileo M-1 (asynchronous) is extremely good, but there is simply no contest there in the combo of detail, air, and musicality.

I don't mean to diss the gear or anything, I guess I just cary my own prejudices. I haven't really cared for any PS gear I've owned or heard--be it their conditioners or their amps. Probably not fair to judge their DACs unheard, but I just never considered them as a contender.

Yes, I'm very happy with my modified EE DAC/Bolder transport. Apart from it being great digital and beating significantly more expensive DACs (even other modded units like the MW Transporter w/ EML tubes etc) in my own rig, I'm invested in it.

Mods don't hold value well and I'm the original owner of the DAC, so unless I got a screaming deal on something I liked more I wouldn't want to take the depreciation hit.

I'll keep my eyes on their market though and if I deal pops up, I'm not opposed to buying and trying and selling it if it doesn't suit me. Gotta love the used gear market!

Alright, let your prejudices win. But I think you're missing a great opportunity, especially with the deals that are around now. Like the Torii and the ERRs, it's a component that makes me say "stick a fork in me, I'm done." Great sound and flexibility. If you can arrange an audition, do so.

I thought you were just dismissing the DAC outright and shopping the used market in general. My apologies, I think it's worth auditioning indeed.

I have had a Mapleshade Rack for a number of years. . . and love it. I really believe that the racks, and the platforms, contribute to the excellent sound I get out of the system. I want in time, if I can get some income coming in, to buy the Version 3 which will allow me to place my TV on top and also house all my other components. But it's too expensive to consider for some time. It's sort of my last audio "wish list item."

Their stuff is expensive. But I've finally surrendered to the notion that audio is the center of my entertainment and I spend the bulk of my quality time alone with the system, and I swallow the costs associated when I have to. It is expensive, but they are definitely valuable and that's how I see it. If I want it, and can eventually afford it, I get it. A lot of my audio buying has been possible because i don't own a car.

Mods don't hold value well and I'm the original owner of the DAC, so unless I got a screaming deal on something I liked more I wouldn't want to take the depreciation hit.

Spot on. It can be very difficult to recover mod value in the used market. I usually look at mods for things I expect to keep, repurpose into a second system, sell based on non-mod used value, or even give away. When I opted for V-caps and stepped attenuators in the Toriis, I assumed getting that extra $600 out of the amp was not likely. but I wanted them, so they were worth into me. However, ai have found hat the used market will often prefer these mods at the same price as the non-modded competition. So, one sometimes gains a selling advantage, if not a price ROI.

Shop carefully, though, and there is no reason to pay full retail for the PW items.

Exactly, but it was something I was aware of before purchasing the mod package. I had the opportunity to audition it in home for several days in advance and I bought it with the intention of holding it for at least a year or two--possibly longer. Digital technology is advancing fast though--yesterdays $5k DACs are todays sub $1000s

Just to give you an illustration of the value the market places on the Digital Lens technology, take a look at this listing on AudioGon for the Genesis Digital Lens. This is two-decades-old technology, and it is still viewed by many as superior to the approaches of many DACs today. This is the same concept as in the PW Transport and DAC/Bridge, except in the case of the Transport, it is backed up by modern engineering and 64mb of memory, and the Bridge with 256mb of memory. If I hadn't already bought the PW DAC, this is what I would be getting. At $600, it is a bargain.

Kana, I don't need the Mac mini, but it is serving as an interesting test bed. The eLyric server offers some functionality not available in the typical NAS. Of course, one of the reasons to have an NAS or just a networked or USB drive is to avoid running a computer. eLyric server allows me some tag manipulation and other work that otherwise requires manipulating the files off the NAS or USB drive.

The eLyric iPad app is still too buggy under iOS 5, though the iPhone app under iOS 5 works quite well, while the Linn OSS app Kinsky works pretty well on both.

I'm getting better tonal beauty, resolution and dimensionality. The only real flaw I perceived in my system was a shallow, narrow sound stage--like 2D listening. Things are VERY holographic now with super depth.

Just top to bottom better defined and with more pull. I also percieve a lower noise floor which I suspect can be attributed to another change I made--adding a Maestro A/C outlet.

In any event, I'm quite pleased. Audion/Decware is a winning combination.

It's true, the Digital Lens is a great piece. I'll never give up mine. I think it's particularly important today, what with the flurry of very inexpensive (read: jitter prone) digital sources available these days.

So after recently acquiring a slightly used Torii 3 I'm back and forth regarding using a pre with it. My pre is a CSP2. Steve himself made the comment in an earlier thread that the CSP2 gets in the way of the Torii and prefers to go direct with his most important sources. He is also quoted in the Tone Audio review that a pre should only be used if you have a world class unit at your disposal. Does that mean that the CSP2 does not fall into world class territory? I would think of all pre's out there that for synergy reasons alone that would be the one to use. I don't need a pre for sources as I have the rotary box. And the answer to what are my ears telling me? I don't know. The sound is perhaps a bit fuller and more defined with the CSP2, but I'm also breaking in some new tubes in the Torii which certainly could have an effect.

So continuing this thread I would be interested in hearing from those of you who are using a pre, what it brings to the table and those that are not, why?

Lastly, I have not heard the term "Integrated" used with this amp. If you don't need a pre, doesn't that make it integrated? If not, why ?

I do use a preamp with my Torii Mk II and my Torii Mk III. I generally use the CSP2 with my second system, driving the Mk II. I do this so that I can have three sources (two in the CSP2 and one into the Mk II direct) in that system. It does allow me great tailoring of the sound as well: balance control (needed in this system as the speaker placement is not ideal), tube-rolling frequency changes, and "riding the gain" (see below). In my main system, I use my PS Audio PerfectWave DAC as a source AND a preamp. I find that for Redbook (my most used source) having the Mk III all the way up or thereabouts and the DAC at 65 of 100 volume or so gets me a great open, deep, natural sound. Better than if i have the DAC maxed out and use the Mk III for volume control. This is in essence what Steve calls "riding the gain." I've posted a section of the ZStage manual below, this applies even more so to the CSP2 as youi can control input and output gain and there's that wonderful huge power supply in the CSP2. I would personally consider the CSP2 a top-notch preamp. What Steve says about preamps applies to the CSP2.

I have also used the CSP2 in the main system with the Mk III to ride the gain and it sounds great. . . . It's just not as necessary in that system as I have the preamp capababilities of the DAC, and it really is needed at the moment in the second system with the Mk II.

I suggest trying to "ride the gain"--that is the biggest advantage I see for you in using the CSP in front of the Mk III as you have a rotary switch box as well. If this makes an appreciable difference to the sound of the system, great! If not, put it on the shelf for a while.

THE MAGIC OF GAINBy now if you don’t own one of the rare amplifies that requires more than 2 volts to come to full power, you’re probably wondering what possible advantages could there be to using a ZSTAGE? Gain = Dynamics. The more dynamic your music is, the more real it will sound. Adding a ZSTAGE to your source will increase it’s dynamics and overall presence. In fact the difference can be such that the sound of your source will improve so much your thoughts about upgrading it will melt away. A customer recently purchased a new CD player of considerable cost and reputation to replace his existing player. The new player was better in every way and justified it’s much higher price. Then the player broke and the customer was forced to go back to his old player. Sadness... then he remembered he had a ZSTAGE in a different system, and placed it between his old CD player and his preamp hoping it would make it sound better. In fact it did, so much so that he could tell no difference between this combination and the new player he had. An example of how gain could save you a couple thousand dollars! RIDING THE GAIN A term we came up with because of the active nature of the adjustment process that can take place when you use a ZSTAGE in conjunction with an preamp OR amplifier fitted with a gain control. Riding the gain happens when you have two controls. One at the source and one at the amp or preamp. Think of it like water pressure. You have a pipe with a valve at the input end and another valve at the output end. The valves represent the gain controls and the pipe represents the signal path between the two gain gain controls. By turning up the input valve and turning the output valve down we create pressure inside the pipe. By turning down (closing) the input valve and turning up (opening) the output valve we reduce pressure inside the pipe. So if you took a garden hose and turned on the faucet you would have lots of water coming out the end, but it wouldn’t be able to spray anything until you put a nozzle on the end. The nozzle acts like a valve to restrict the output causing the pressure in the hose to increase. PRESSURE in this metaphor is the same thing as DYNAMICS in your stereo system.

FREQUENCY BALANCEBy having a gain control at the source and a second one at the amp (or preamp) it is possible to manipulate the dynamics of your music and it’s overall frequency balance. For example, if the music sounds thin you can increase the “pressure” by turning down the gain control on the amplifier (or preamp) and then raising the gain control at the source. This will add noticeable weight to the music and mellow out the top end. On the other side, if the music is sounding boomy or thick, you can do the opposite - turn up the gain on the amp and reduce the gain at the source. The boominess will go away.

Lon thanks. That is a cool piece by Steve re Riding The Gain which is why his comments were a bit confusing to me. You're comments however make a lot of sense. Obviously this all becomes a personal choice but it's always helpful for me to better understand my options.

I use a pre amp, for a simple reason, less heat. I tried using the input to run from My cd-player to the Torrii. the Torrii got quite abit warmer inside the unit than with a preamp when that input (from the cd-player) was selected, even with the Torrii volume down... the pre-amp has a better sound quality than My cd-player in My system also.....

I use a CSP pre in front of my Torii MKII. My system includes a Mac Mini (fed by two separate external drives) feeding a Hegel HD20 DAC via Toslink. The HD20 has a digital volume control and feeds the Torii quite fine with its 2.5 V output.

Somehow the CSP in between gives me more headroom, a more articulate sound stage and a better representation of bass, mids and treble. The only downside is, somehow, as soon as I put the CSP in the signal chain, there is some hum in the system which does not get in the way of music, yet a bit annoying particularly late at night. I swapped so many different tubes, but I have not been able to reduce the hum. I have checked my connections as well, but no solution...

I am considering getting a Hegel P30 pre towards the end of the year. Thankfully, I will have a chance to try it before buying it, as it is an expensive piece of gear.

I use a pre amp, for a simple reason, less heat. I tried using the input to run from My cd-player to the Torrii. the Torrii got quite abit warmer inside the unit than with a preamp when that input (from the cd-player) was selected, even with the Torrii volume down... the pre-amp has a better sound quality than My cd-player in My system also.....

Interesting! I never noticed a heat difference myself. CSP2 are such great preamps!

I use a CSP pre in front of my Torii MKII. My system includes a Mac Mini (fed by two separate external drives) feeding a Hegel HD20 DAC via Toslink. The HD20 has a digital volume control and feeds the Torii quite fine with its 2.5 V output.

Somehow the CSP in between gives me more headroom, a more articulate sound stage and a better representation of bass, mids and treble. The only downside is, somehow, as soon as I put the CSP in the signal chain, there is some hum

Re: Are you using a preamp?Reply #31 - Today at 9:33am Modify Remove in the system which does not get in the way of music, yet a bit annoying particularly late at night. I swapped so many different tubes, but I have not been able to reduce the hum. I have checked my connections as well, but no solution...

I am considering getting a Hegel P30 pre towards the end of the year. Thankfully, I will have a chance to try it before buying it, as it is an expensive piece of gear.

Best,

Alper

I'm always struggling with hum with the CSP2, and I don't believe it's tubes either. I blame my DVR being in the system, but that may not be the case either. Perplexing.

One day I might order a new one (mine is the previous model, and in the old black metal chassis.) But that's a bit away. . . .

I think everyone knows I use the Ultra as a preamp. It's being fed by the PWD Mk II, an AppleTV, an Oppo BDP-95, and a Comcast DVR. The Ultra feeds two Torii Mk III amps for the front and rear, an 84ZS for the center channel, and a Taboo (for headphone listening). In order to get the benefit of all this stuff, and the surprising amount of 5.1 material on Comcast, as well as the ATV, the SVR and ATV run through a Dolby digital decoder. The PWD goes straight into the Ultra for 2-channel only. The other units then all feed into a Zektor MAS7.1 switch which then feeds the 6-channel A input of the Ultra. All this stuff resides on two ZRACKs. Listeners are surrounded by 6 ERRs, none more than a few feet away from any listener. Power is regenerated by two PS Audio Power Port Premiers.

If I turn every single component up to max volume, I can hear a bit of hum, but that would be an ear-splitting volume. At anything remotely listenable without pain, even in the quietest of well-recorded passages, I have no hum. My Toriis are set roughly at halfway, while my Ultra is typically 1/3 of full. I don't say this to boast—after all, it's not my achievement—but only to say that hum is not inherent in the design. I have a lot of quality cables running around "back there," and if there was going to be a hum opportunity, I ought to have it.

I have definitely noticed that some tubes are much more microphonic than others, and presumably some tube types and makes are more likely to contribute to hum than others. Tube combinations on these units are nearly infinite. Hum induced by specific tubes could be maddening to track down I guess.

At the end of the day, even if the Ultra had no switching role in my system, the improvement in dynamic headroom is worth having. My system simply does not sound the same without the Ultra.

I found that using a (tube) pre with my SE84CS really brought it alive.With my SE34I, I tried using a pre on and off for sometime, finally ended up selling it, the pre was just an added box in the chain.I need to be constantly reminded, apparently, that "synergy is everything"There are very few if any hard & fast rules!BestDon