No one dare use nukes.

originally posted by: autopat51
i will say this once more
EMP's exploded high in the atmosphere will knock out all power grids.
no transportation, no communication, no power.
that means no fresh water, no sewage, no food, no tv, no power to nuke plants....nothing.
that is my greatest fear.

It certainly is something to fear, but humans did once live without all of this stuff (Except water and food, but there were many times when it was
limited). I'm more concerned with the anarchy that may follow as people evacuate the cities looking for food, water. Water wells should be a pretty
safe water source, and there is bound to be Food for those that know how to find it (Hunting, fishing, Vegetation). There is also a possibility that
an invasion may follow. But yeah, if you live in a city or you don't know how to live off the land, you're out of luck.

why would russia even want it?
let nato try and control it, its just a mess!

Why would Putin want the Ukraine? Its symbolic; the City of Kiev exists within it borders and is the 3rd city that represents the holy father trinity
(catholicism). ROME first, CONSTANTINOPLE second, Kiev third. A sacred city if you are Russian orthodox. He wants to OWN the city of Kiev because of
its history. An analogy would be the sacredness of Kyoto Japan.

Hi anonentity, An EMP Strike is the most likely first strike scenario would be a large yield High Altitude Strike and is very hard to recover from.
EMP Strike

Question: Will there be a 'recovery' from EMP attack?

When people talk about this topic, especially when addressing it in quantitative terms, they always discuss a theoretical event which ignores or fails
to appreciate the context of why there's an EMP strike occurring at all, and what else will be occurring in parallel.

As a result analysts, writers, bloggers and MSM tend to frame it in terms of a serious area threat but one that is manageable, painfully and terribly
disruptive, yes, but a recoverable shock of limited effectiveness and limited in regional scale.

That is thoroughly wrong for many rather obvious reasons.

I suspect most of the befuddlement stems from them thoroughly confusing of EMP attack effects and recovery options with theoretical E3 geomagnetic
storm effects and recovery.

These are not the same thing, they are not even the same effects (though some are), they have radically different implications and outcomes, and they
could not be more different in terms of potential recovery - which I will make painfully clear.

A geomagnetic storm is much more benign, it may be global but it is an 'E3' EMP effect, which is a physical distortion and displacement of Earth's
magnetic field lines. Moving a magnetic field in that way induces the release of electrons, which are then preferentially conducted in cables and thus
into 'Earth' (i.e. it is electrically 'earthed'). You can observe these storms forming, they are not instantaneous, it takes time for them to
build, so you can obtain advance warning and make switching changes to reduce many of the damaging effects. A country can and in fact would recover
from a solar induced EMP storm.

But nuclear weapon EMP is much more dangerous and quite impossible to manage or contain, for many reasons. The EMP from a very large high altitude
nuke can also distort the earth's magnetic field simply by the enormous scale of the thermal fireball rising through the field lines and rapidly
dragging them out of their usual position and causing them to quiver and 'ring' from the insult. Like a guitar string vibrating within the magnetic
field of a pickup coil, this also produces a copious supply of induced electrons.

That likewise is an 'E3' EMP effect, just like a geomagnetic storm can induce.

But nuclear EMP also comes in the much more insidious and dangerous forms as well, as an almost instantaneous release of an immediate 'E1' pulse, on
detonation, which moves outwards at ~90% the speed of light. Plus a slightly delayed 'E2' pulse which follows right behind it. So nuclear is a 1, 2,
3, combined hit that follow on from each other (over several minutes). And not only this, but any real EMP attack will involve literally dozens of 1,
2, 3 hits spaced over a period of hours, days, weeks, and months which follow the initial devastating opening strikes.

E1 is a sudden release of elections via the gamma rays escaping from the exposed expanding weapon core smashing the electrons off the atoms in the
upper atmosphere. It's like a giant 'E3', except that instead of the insult being spread over minutes or hours the rise-time to peak is almost
instantaneous. it is the E1 which instantly fries digital computers and integrated circuits and electric motors and automated control systems. Plus it
weakens, degrades and or softens-up all remaining electronic systems which did not instantly fail, so that the following E2 and E3 will in fact stand
a much better chance of frying it too. So E1 is incredibly, and instantly and permanently damaging. There is no warning, you can not prevent it, you
can not manage it, and in operating practice, you can not minimise it either.

E2 is slightly slower and behaves more like billions of simultaneous lightning strikes hitting all exposed above ground electrical conductors. As most
power systems are designed to cope will electrical storms, the E2 pulse would ordinarily be much less damaging. Except for one thing, th E1 has
already massively shocked and undermined all remaining electrical infrastructure, heated it, scorched it, shorted it and stressed it to the point of
electrical failure, then a fraction of a second later the E2 bolt out of the blue arrives and belts it hard again. Consequently a lot of the remaining
electrical components likewise will fail from the E2 insult.

Then the E3 pulse builds up over the minutes that follow as the fireball rises and resistive heating from excess electron flows to earth heat, melt
and burns the cables and power grid, destroying the network's infrastructure and causing thousands of fires in thousands of buildings, from the
melting and exploding electrical equipment.

Because the E1 has already destroyed the ability to operate an electrical switches that could disconnect and isolate systems to manage the damage, a
nuclear E3 can not be mitigated or managed at all. If the weapon yield(s) are very high, then it will relentlessly fry and burn the entire electricity
generation and distribution network.

And this will not happen just once, this will all happen again and again, maybe a dozen times in the first hour. Maybe 50 times in the first week. It
will be done again and again to make sure every bit of electrical infrastructure and operating electronics is destroyed, plus to cumulative catch out
anyone using a backup or emergency supply, or survival mechanisms that were in storage, such as generators, and solar panels, etc.

The attacker intends to make sure the government, its military and civilians and even remote survivalists have no electrical system that still works.
They will make numerous follow-up intense EMP attacks for months to make sure they have rendered unserviceable 99.999% of electrical systems on the
continent.

This is Strategic Total War. The attacker intends to make sure you have nothing left, and that you have no chance whatsoever to ever recover either
the state, your military power, or economic capacity. They intend to either make you die, or to completely disarm and surrender - in order to live -
and they are fully ready to ensure you die, if you do not surrender. In fact, they may prefer that.

That is inevitably going to be the nuclear attacker's Strategic imperative.a reply to: anonentity

Thank you for your elucidation the entirety of the effect is gobsmacking indeed. No wonder the countries that have the capability, don't want
proliferation . But the effect will be global in its effect, it also means both combatants would have very little left, including no stone age skills.

Well anonentity, Me thinks that the Global Elites are kinda hedging towards saving the Southern Hemispheres as their Hiding Places. These would be
much more palatable than spending multiple decades (for some) in Deep Bunkers. Let's face it Control Freaks like to control and being on ice for any
long period of time means "No Control". A completely undesirable scenario for Well Meaning Sociopaths

Peace Arjunada. BTW, I've made it a habit to
retain my Stone Age Skills LOL. a reply to: anonentity

oh!! ok...kind of like nato and the us trying to install governments all over the world.
except its our ball and nobody else can play?
i get it now,

Nato and the United States of America are two separate entities. The Nato Alliance is all countries of the world united as a singular voice protecting
the human dignity/rights of those recognized "members" within its jurisdiction. If you had the opportunity to install a government (after you
created chaos and felled the existing one) what country would you like most to dictate to?

The entire planet will be poisoned. And we haven't even started on fallout or ruptured nuclear power plants yet.

10x more people will perish in weeks after the nuclear war............when basic needs to sustain populations like hospitals, electricity, water
supply etc. have been destroyed and there is little help for even those who are in the most need.

In the information age and times of hyper sonic missiles and abilities to destroy any nations major infrastructure without losing a single plane or
man................there is no need to physically invade and control the territory.

This is what US/West/NATO is striving to achieve in the near future.

Only Russia can stop them. Those who do not help Russia in current times will stand "bitterly repent" the HITLER LITE treatment rendered to them in
their own countries.

wouldnt it be nice to have nato bases in ukraine?
thats what makes me wonder about this whole thing.

It is unlikely there will be a NATO base placed in Ukraine. Buffer states serve an important role in order to give enemies an assurance that neither
is encroaching upon the other. This goes to why Russia's actions in Ukraine are so important. They're encroaching upon the buffer that is already
there.

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
We don't want their crap OR their people,we have the best/most land anyway so, NO WAY.
We have had superiority over them both and we left them alone.
WE aren't trying to rule the world NOR have we invaded Mexico for the same reason.

Thanks for coming to ATS and defining mutual assured destruction. It hasn't been ingrained into our culture since the 1960s or anything..

HAHA!!!

I knew someone would beat me to it.

I see this all the time, people who just pop in with a thread that points out something that has been blindingly obvious to everyone for decades as if
they are coming to us with some amazing new revelation. He probably just learned about MAD in school today or something

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