When you attack the basket you force the refs to make a judgment call as to whether there was contact and if that contact was severe enough to constitute a foul.

When you shoot jump shots, your only motion is up and down and it is very easy for the refs to see any contact.

When you drive, you are moving up, down, left, right, spin, duck under, using the body, etc... and these players are doing it at lightning speed (especially Dwayne Wade). The defense is also moving and shifting positions just as much.

For all of us Lazy Boy referees, we get to watch the play from various camera angles and in slow motion with rewind, over and over which allows us to get the best view of the play several times over. A ref gets one look, from one angle and a split second to make a call... Now if you still don't understand my point, you never will.

Dwayne Wade attacks the basket. During the regular season he got to the line more times per 48 mins then any other player. Wade got to the line during the finals more times then any other player on the court, just like in the regular season by attacking just like he did in the finals. But who was complaining during those 82 games?

The point is: Wade attacked and took over when it mattered. He answered the call...

Dirk did not attack, passed up shots and essentially disappeared during crunch time.

Wade took over and willed his team to victory and Dirk did not match his effort.

Wade went out and took it. That is why he is now a champion like MJ and Dirk is not.

News Flash: We are going to see Wade get to the foul line for the rest of his career...the refs have been and will continue to be consistent because Dwayne Wade attacks the basket.

JayRedd

06-22-2006, 12:31 PM

hear, hear. I find it embarrassing that Dallas fans and even many other NBA fans keep bringing up the officiating. That is not the story here and the one questionable call (foul on Wade at the end of Game 5) was clearly a foul by both Dirk and Harris.

Seriously, this guy TORCHED the Mavs for over 40 points twice and people want to talk about the officials? Unbelievable that the best individual Finals performance since MJ is getting barely more attention than referees. Save that nonsense for Mike Holmgren and give the best player in the League right now his due.

Slick Pinkham

06-22-2006, 12:51 PM

The drawing fouls factor is why I wanted Maggette for mo-Ron

CableKC

06-22-2006, 12:51 PM

The drawing fouls factor is why I wanted Maggette for mo-Ron

The problem that I can see....which I think is also a factor with Maggette....is that the more times you drive to the hoop to draw a foul....the greater the chance that you will one day get injured from it.

I really credit him for his no-fear attitude in his insane attacks to the hoop. The question is....how many more rings will he get until the injury bug catches up with him? Kind of like how it caught up with Iverson ( the only difference being is that Wade already has his championship ring ).

At some point.....some Big Man to finally going to foul him hard and its going to take longer for him to get up and walk it off. But like his commercial says.....he'll get knocked down....but will keep on getting up.

JayRedd

06-22-2006, 07:51 PM

The problem that I can see....which I think is also a factor with Maggette....is that the more times you drive to the hoop to draw a foul....the greater the chance that you will one day get injured from it.

I really credit him for his no-fear attitude in his insane attacks to the hoop. The question is....how many more rings will he get until the injury bug catches up with him? Kind of like how it caught up with Iverson ( the only difference being is that Wade already has his championship ring ).

Iverson probably just had his best year as a pro. Last season at 30 years old, he led the NBA in minutes per game and in free-throw attempts. Yes, he does sit out the occasional game and he did miss a third of a season three years ago (broken wrist was it?), but the guy is still attacking and still dominating just like he did at Georgetown.

That said, he is one tough SOB and lesser men would probably be sitting out a lot more with the bang-ups he routinely plays through.

On the flipside, JO led our team in free throws even though he played in only 51 games. His 7 attempts per game put him in the upper tier of foul drawers in the League. But as we know, our problem is perimeter penetration. Jax was second on the Pacers in FTAs But he had barely over 4 attempts per game, and that's just not going to get it done. Without penetrators on the wing or many players that can consistently hit the three, is it really any wonder JO has a hard time scoring with the ball in his hands?

Brian

06-25-2006, 03:02 PM

This is very true for guards...not so much for Fowards...look at how many times JO got straight hacked and there were no calls.

Shade

06-25-2006, 06:24 PM

Anybody who actually watched this series could see that Wade was getting phantom and touch fouls the likes of which have not been seen since the Jordan era. You can try to rationalize that all you want, but you can't deny it.

vapacersfan

06-25-2006, 06:54 PM

Anybody who actually watched this series could see that Wade was getting phantom and touch fouls the likes of which have not been seen since the Jordan era. You can try to rationalize that all you want, but you can't deny it.

:rolleyes:

Get over it, Miami was the better team. Im so sick and tired of hearing the whining already.

Yes, Shaq gets away with murder, Wade gets a lot of breaks, and the NBA still doenst call traveling.

If the Mavs didnt choke none of that would matter. The Mavs went soft and couldnt buy a jumpshot, and Miami won. Its done. Let it go.

The Miami Heat are the champs. You can make excuses all you want, but you cant deny it.

Slick Pinkham

06-25-2006, 07:27 PM

Anybody who actually watched this series could see that Wade was getting phantom and touch fouls the likes of which have not been seen since the Jordan era. You can try to rationalize that all you want, but you can't deny it.

I also deny it 100%.

He was aggressive, he got bumped and grabbed, and fouls were called.

Shade

06-25-2006, 07:54 PM

...Wade gets a lot of breaks...

This was the only point I was trying to make. Thanks for confirming.

I also deny it 100%.

He was aggressive, he got bumped and grabbed, and fouls were called.

No offense Tom, but Wade got LOTS of phantom calls in which he was either lightly touched or not toched at all. Sure, not every call was that way, but there were more than a few instances that raised some eyebrows in this series, and pretty much all of them seemed to involve Wade.

The first two times Wade was "fouled" in Game 6, he wasn't even touched. The last "foul" came after he threw himself into Dirk. It seemed to be pretty obvious to everyone but the striped shirts on the court, and that's unacceptable.

The thing is, referees are supposed to make calls they actually witness. You can't witness a foul that never actually happened. Anticipation calls are illegal.

I've been a Wade fan since before his rookie season. In the fantasy league, he was my first pick in his rookie season. I just hate to see such a great talent artificially inflated by shoddy officiating. If I did my job half as badly as some of these guys do, I'd have been fired long ago.

Plax80

06-25-2006, 08:10 PM

:rolleyes:

Get over it, Miami was the better team. Im so sick and tired of hearing the whining already.

Yes, Shaq gets away with murder, Wade gets a lot of breaks, and the NBA still doenst call traveling.

If the Mavs didnt choke none of that would matter. The Mavs went soft and couldnt buy a jumpshot, and Miami won. Its done. Let it go.

The Miami Heat are the champs. You can make excuses all you want, but you cant deny it.

I was never into it....so therefore I have nothing to get over. I do agree with the mass consensus that some of these games are at least partially orchestrated which is shameful to the game.

Wade is a good almost great player and seems like a humble and great kid. But anybody that shoots 25 FTs/game should score 40 points. On another thread about his, I wrote mockingly that Rafer Alston would be great if he could shoot 25 FTs/game. No one wqith any sense could deny he has a better handle than Wade and is quicker, so his ability to beat his man off the dribble and create contact driving to the basket is better than Wade's. The difference...David Stern isn't going to let "Skip to my Lou" get 10-12 phantom foul calls a night and those possessions wind up with transition breaks going the other way.

I could care less about the heat. Oter than being a Pacer fan for 30+years, I could care less about the nBA.

I don't think that the Heat are an incredible basketball team by any means. Detriot and San Antonio were the best two teams with Dallas a notch behind. They got beat from what I hear fair and square...although SAnt didnt like some calls at the end of games 3 and 4 in Dallas from what I heard.

But with the failures of the NBA in international competition and now a pretty medicore champion being crowned, IMO its obvious that the league needs to stop looking so hard to find and create the next Jordan and concentrate on rewarding the best teams regardless of marketing.

The sports fan of today is too knowledgable to get suckered into the NBA hype machine and gets easily turned off when a guy (Stern) thinks he is so much smarter than everybody else that he can fool us with canned results and storylines and we will all come running for more.

Sorry Dave....we weren't really all that naive with Hulk Hogan and the Giant either........we just found it abundantly more interesting than watching your new savior shoot free throws.

Hicks

06-25-2006, 08:43 PM

I never watched the rest of the Finals games all the way through to have a solid opinion on the Wade issue, but I did see the end of Game 6 and that last foul on Dirk was absolute crap.

Bball

06-25-2006, 08:44 PM

It doesn't hurt when good players take their lumps throughout their career and don't bi+ch and moan to the refs and burn up their benefit of the doubt cards in the process.

-Bball

vapacersfan

06-25-2006, 09:14 PM

This was the only point I was trying to make. Thanks for confirming.

You just made my point while allegedly making yours.

Look, we both agree he gets a lot of breaks, some of those being phanton or as "touch" fouls. As much as I dislike that, its part of the game. You tend to get those breaks when you are always drinking to the hole. Its something I wish the Pacers guards (and frankly the whole team) would have learned long ago. Granted in order for that to work, you would have to stop *****ing at the refs long enough for them to give you the benefit of the doubt.

I was never into it....so therefore I have nothing to get over. I do agree with the mass consensus that some of these games are at least partially orchestrated which is shameful to the game.

First of all, welcome to PD.

Please, point out one time where I said you were into it. I quoted Shade for a reason, because I was responding to him.

I dont think the games are fixed at all, but I do think some refs let way ot much personal bias impact how they call the games. I just dont think a game could be fixed at this level and it not leak out, even just a little bit.

Wade is a good almost great player and seems like a humble and great kid. But anybody that shoots 25 FTs/game should score 40 points. On another thread about his, I wrote mockingly that Rafer Alston would be great if he could shoot 25 FTs/game.

I saw that thread. And while I agree with your premise that David Stern shouldnt run anything other then the local circus, that point is ludacris. Comparing Alston to Wade is a joke...mockingly or not.

Im not even going to waste either of our time arguing against David wanting to hold skip back. If you really beleive that, then I am really, really sorry. BTW, if the league is fixed, (and by no means am I saying it is) my money would be on Stern not knowing anything of it, and someone like the VP or a high up, but not to high up being the one that runs it.

Sorry Dave....we weren't really all that naive with Hulk Hogan and the Giant either........we just found it abundantly more interesting than watching your new savior shoot free throws.

Well I watched all of the Finals, and while I am not a fan of either team I still enjoyed them. So I guess that takes one out of your "we" generalization......

It doesn't hurt when good players take their lumps throughout their career and don't bi+ch and moan to the refs and burn up their benefit of the doubt cards in the process.

-Bball

:ding:

Shade

06-25-2006, 09:31 PM

It's only "part of the game" because we allow it to be. There's a difference between getting the benefit of the doubt and missing calls that everyone else on the planet can see in real time from the stands or their television sets.

Honestly, I'm utterly amazed at the number of people who are fine with just rolling over and ignoring something that's so obviously wrong. If nobody speaks out against it, it will never change.

All I ask is for a fairly officiated sport. Is that REALLY too much to ask?

vapacersfan

06-25-2006, 09:49 PM

It's only "part of the game" because we allow it to be. There's a difference between getting the benefit of the doubt and missing calls that everyone else on the planet can see in real time from the stands or their television sets.

I have seen a few missed calls, but to me they didnt do as bad as people try to make it out to be. Yeah, they missed some calls, buy so does every other ref in every other finals

Honestly, I'm utterly amazed at the number of people who are fine with just rolling over and ignoring something that's so obviously wrong. If nobody speaks out against it, it will never change.

I havent seen one person who is "rolling over", unless they are rolling over *****ing :-p Like I said, these refs missed some calls. It happens every year.

What amazes me is how people who are ignoring the fact that Mark Cuban (who I love but is obnoxious as hell) and the Mavs didnt get the breaks that the Heat did, and it wasnt just Wade. It was the whole heat team. As I saying that is was set up? no. But do I think its a coinsidense? not at all

All I ask is for a fairly officiated sport. Is that REALLY too much to ask?

Thats what we all want. But till we get robots that can ignore Cubans loud mouth and Dirk kicking the bike and kicking the ball into the stands, there will always be a human element.

Plax80

06-25-2006, 09:55 PM

You just made my point while allegedly making yours.

Look, we both agree he gets a lot of breaks, some of those being phanton or as "touch" fouls. As much as I dislike that, its part of the game. You tend to get those breaks when you are always drinking to the hole. Its something I wish the Pacers guards (and frankly the whole team) would have learned long ago. Granted in order for that to work, you would have to stop *****ing at the refs long enough for them to give you the benefit of the doubt.

First of all, welcome to PD.

Please, point out one time where I said you were into it. I quoted Shade for a reason, because I was responding to him.

I dont think the games are fixed at all, but I do think some refs let way ot much personal bias impact how they call the games. I just dont think a game could be fixed at this level and it not leak out, even just a little bit.

I saw that thread. And while I agree with your premise that David Stern shouldnt run anything other then the local circus, that point is ludacris. Comparing Alston to Wade is a joke...mockingly or not.

Im not even going to waste either of our time arguing against David wanting to hold skip back. If you really beleive that, then I am really, really sorry. BTW, if the league is fixed, (and by no means am I saying it is) my money would be on Stern not knowing anything of it, and someone like the VP or a high up, but not to high up being the one that runs it.

Well I watched all of the Finals, and while I am not a fan of either team I still enjoyed them. So I guess that takes one out of your "we" generalization......

:ding:

Thanks for the welcome. Look forward to agreeing with you more often than not. I wasn't try9ing to pick an argument with you, just trying to say that not everyone who wasn't impressed with the Finals or wade or the Heat was being a sore loser or a hata.

As for Alston....well no I don;t think he's a great player either. I used him as a mock against the way the games are officiated differently for differnet players. I absolutely DO believe that he is a quicker and better ballhandler than Wade and I DO totally believe that if the ony requirement for getting 25 FTA/game is to be able to penetrate and create contact.........he would be one of the most skilled athletes in the world in that category.

And I absolutely DO believe that Stern has a hand in determining which players receive the "stars treatment" and which ones don't.

And for those who would throw Greg Maddux' name into this argument, I would say that BOTH are terribly wrong. Both hurt their sports tremendously, but Maddux getting an extra inch off the plate doesn't drastically effect the outcome of a game the way 10-12 phantom calls do. Its not only the 20 "extra" points that are created for the benefitting team, its the lost opportunity points at the other end as well. You can say that Wade getting 6 phantom calls/gm is worth between 15-20 points. Thats an enormous margin for the opponent to overcome analytically, w/o even factoring in the emotional drain it creates.

The people that say "score more points" haven't really thought it through enough IMO. The old saying against Jordan's Bulls was that you better be ahead by at least 20 going into the 4th in Chicago Stadium if you wanted to have a chance to win.

The beauty of sports is the real drama that is created every night. When that drama becomes scripted in any way, it immediately loses most of its appeal. And for me, that is a sin that ranks above Pete Rose's betting on baseball.

I refuse to see how any knowledgable NBA fan could argue that its integrity is constantly forsaken by obvious "star" traetment that certain players get.

25 FTA in ONE game is beyond ridiculous. FOR A GUARD.........this wasn't 1968 Wilt. Letting a guy go 1 on 4 with almost no possible chance of success get rewarded with 2 game winning FTs is beyond ridiculous. And for people to celebrate the fact that he actually made them both as if it was something heroic.........please.

Shade

06-25-2006, 10:02 PM

I have seen a few missed calls, but to me they didnt do as bad as people try to make it out to be. Yeah, they missed some calls, buy so does every other ref in every other finals

I havent seen one person who is "rolling over", unless they are rolling over *****ing :-p Like I said, these refs missed some calls. It happens every year.

What amazes me is how people who are ignoring the fact that Mark Cuban (who I love but is obnoxious as hell) and the Mavs didnt get the breaks that the Heat did, and it wasnt just Wade. It was the whole heat team. As I saying that is was set up? no. But do I think its a coinsidense? not at all

Thats what we all want. But till we get robots that can ignore Cubans loud mouth and Dirk kicking the bike and kicking the ball into the stands, there will always be a human element.

From my personal observation, the phantom foul element was absolutely ridiculous. And you'd think that the refs would be on top of it better since it had become such an issue, but it was just as bad in the final game as any of the others. Refs can't really be that blind/stupid...can they? The refs didn't miss calls so much as they just flat-out pulled them out of thin air. Somehow they managed to see, over and over again, what never actually happened. Amazing.

And the reason people are focused so much on Wade is because the calls were so obviously and consistently one-sided that it was ludicrous.

Officiating is bad, yeah, but when it's so obviously bad that three people on the court constantly miss what thousands see from much further away from the action, it does make you step back and think a bit.

vapacersfan

06-25-2006, 10:04 PM

Its all good man. I love having conversation, and part of what makes this place great is that we dont always agree with each other.

I never said I thought people were hating, or anything like that, and I never meant to imply that in any of my posts. I'm just tired of people cutting them down and acting like the refs gave the series to the Heat.

I realize the refs suck/sucked. But at the end of the day, just like with the Lakers/Blazers series (which I honestly think that ref was paid off in game 6, but thats a different story/thread....) the Mavs had a chance to come back and win the series. They just didnt step their games up.

I dont know much about hot sauce, I admit I am not a big street ball fan, but I have watched a few of his tapes just as a sample for one of my business plans in school last year. He may be a better handler, but I dont think hes quicker. But thats all moot. I see your point, but I still dont agree. Wade has that amazing ability to finish in the paint, even when he is fouled/hacked.

And I absolutely DO believe that Stern has a hand in determining which players receive the "stars treatment" and which ones don't.

Im not sure I agree with that, but its a interesting proposal.

I refuse to see how any knowledgable NBA fan could argue that its integrity is constantly forsaken by obvious "star" traetment that certain players get.

You and I agree 110% on this one. I actually brought it up to Mr.Boyle in a thread a couple of days ago (maybe weeks?) but I think the star treatment of the NBA has become a joke. It is almost like they care more about the business side then they do about just calling a basketball game. I would love to see them go away from star treatment, and while they claim they are getting away from it, I have yet to see it.

Shade

06-25-2006, 10:11 PM

Its all good man. I love having conversation, and part of what makes this place great is that we dont always agree with each other.

I never said I thought people were hating, or anything like that, and I never meant to imply that in any of my posts. I'm just tired of people cutting them down and acting like the refs gave the series to the Heat.

I realize the refs suck/sucked. But at the end of the day, just like with the Lakers/Blazers series (which I honestly think that ref was paid off in game 6, but thats a different story/thread....) the Mavs had a chance to come back and win the series. They just didnt step their games up.

I dont know much about hot sauce, I admit I am not a big street ball fan, but I have watched a few of his tapes just as a sample for one of my business plans in school last year. He may be a better handler, but I dont think hes quicker. But thats all moot. I see your point, but I still dont agree. Wade has that amazing ability to finish in the paint, even when he is fouled/hacked.

Im not sure I agree with that, but its a interesting proposal.

You and I agree 110% on this one. I actually brought it up to Mr.Boyle in a thread a couple of days ago (maybe weeks?) but I think the star treatment of the NBA has become a joke. It is almost like they care more about the business side then they do about just calling a basketball game. I would love to see them go away from star treatment, and while they claim they are getting away from it, I have yet to see it.

Nah, it's all good man. I just have trouble seeing how people can watch the same thing I watch and yet see it so differently. I went into Game 6 with a fresh mind, but made a point to watch all of the calls for Wade to see how many of them were legit. The first two fouls never happened. He wasn't even touched. The third foul was a touch foul on his wrist (which didn't affect the shot) as he was falling away from the basket. That wasn't an "attacking the basket" call. The fourth foul, once again, he wasn't touched on. And then, of course, was the worst foul of all, the last one where he elbowed Dirk, and it was obvious to pretty much everyone but the refs. He was legitimately fouled on the other calls, though some were iffy.

I'm just in absolute awe that the NBA can give such obvious preferential treatment to star players for years and years and nothing is done about it. It only gets worse and more obvious every year, and for me anyway, it's ruining the game. I accept that officials miss calls from time to time, but **** like that is ridiculous and unacceptable.

vapacersfan

06-25-2006, 10:14 PM

Nah, it's all good man. I just have trouble seeing how people can watch the same thing I watch and yet see it so differently. I went into Game 6 with a fresh mind, but made a point to watch all of the calls for Wade to see how many of them were legit. The first two fouls never happened. He wasn't even touched. The third foul was a touch foul on his wrist (which didn't affect the shot) as he was falling away from the basket. That wasn't an "attacking the basket" call. The fourth foul, once again, he wasn't touched on. And then, of course, was the worst foul of all, the last one where he elbowed Dirk, and it was obvious to pretty much everyone but the refs.

I'm just in absolute awe that the NBA can give such obvious preferential treatment to star players for years and years and nothing is done about it. It only gets worse and more obvious every year, and for me anyway, it's ruining the game. I accept that officials miss calls from time to time, but **** like that is ridiculous and unacceptable.

I agree. Or how about the last play of game 6?! Even I called foul on that, and I hate to see a foul end a game.

I agree, and the funny part is Stu or whatever the hell his name is keeps coming out and saying there is no star treatment, and the refs are making changes....blah blah blah.

I have slowly lost interest in the NBA over the years, and I can see where you, and others, are coming from.

Shade

06-25-2006, 10:18 PM

I agree. Or how about the last play of game 6?! Even I called foul on that, and I hate to see a foul end a game.

I agree, and the funny part is Stu or whatever the hell his name is keeps coming out and saying there is no star treatment, and the refs are making changes....blah blah blah.

I have slowly lost interest in the NBA over the years, and I can see where you, and others, are coming from.

That's all I'm saying. I like Wade, but the calls he gets are slowly starting to make me NOT like him. Because every time he complains about a call from here on out, I'm going to want to smack him, because it would be horribly hypocritical.

The referees are a MAJOR problem in the NBA. And Stern can sit there with his smug smile and deny it all he wants, but he knows it's true.

vapacersfan

06-25-2006, 10:27 PM

Stern has decided the refs are not a problem, and that is the final decision.

Stern is quoted as saying "It was a 1-0 decision"

DeS

06-26-2006, 02:51 PM

I'm just in absolute awe that the NBA can give such obvious preferential treatment to star players for years and years and nothing is done about it. It only gets worse and more obvious every year, and for me anyway, it's ruining the game. I accept that officials miss calls from time to time, but **** like that is ridiculous and unacceptable.

Imo, this year, the best example of it was Lebron walking up to 5 steps before hitting the game winner.

BoomBaby31

06-26-2006, 09:43 PM

The officiating wasn't terrible like in the Superbowl, but towards the end of the game you can call a game winning foul over a brush on the arm when they haven't been calling them all night.

vapacersfan

06-26-2006, 09:45 PM

The officiating wasn't terrible like in the Superbowl, but towards the end of the game you can call a game winning foul over a brush on the arm when they haven't been calling them all night.

That is the point Shade was trying to make. They had been calling them all night, just not for allas.