bodom_bad_boy wrote:Im not denying the importance of studying the Buddhas words.

It sure sounds like you are. We must be careful not to turn people away from the teachings. Too many would-be-Buddhists hear words like yours, bodum, and think they do not need any instruction at all, that they can figure it all out on their own. This then becomes mere ego play.

It is important but only if you use it as a guide and not take it to be the truth itself.

I don't think anyone here has suggested otherwise.

Jechbi wrote:

bodom_bad_boy wrote:Did the Buddhas original disciples study scripture? No, they just practiced and they reached the deathless. Find a good teacher.

The very first five just heard a few words from the Buddha, and bingo, enlightenment.

So according to bodum, study is unnecessary and according to Jechbi practice is also unnecessary. How lucky we are that awakening can come so easy.

We must be careful with our words. We do not want to turn people away from learning the teachings, nor do we want to turn people away from practice.

genkaku wrote:I was thinking about this today, though from a slightly different angle. Please delete if it's too far off-topic:

Some -- perhaps a lot of -- people walk around imagining quietly, "I am not enlightened." And from there, it's a short step to wishing to be enlightened.

But the thought that crossed my mind was this: In order to know you are not enlightened, you would, of necessity, need to know what enlightenment was. And if you actually did know what enlightenment was, would it honestly be enlightenment?Books and descriptions and angels on the head of a pin cannot adequately capture the meaning of enlightenment so ... how could anyone truthfully say they were unenlightened?

Brain teasers like this encourage me ... don't fret; just practice.

Hi genkaku,

I would be happy to encourage you until I'm blue in the face But have to poke at your comment a little.

I don't think we need to have experienced enlightenment to know that we're not enlightened. If we go by the standards and definition the Budddha laid out, most of us are just ordinary. And according to most traditions, enlightened beings do know they're enlightened.

That said, if we're wise enough to recognize even some of our unenlightened and afflicted thoughts and actions we might be making progress. And we're perpetuating them less after getting off the cushion then all the better!

Thank you for proving my point peter. Practice equanimity, dont just read about it. Your not gonna find it on the bookshelf. Practice it right here for instance, and when you find you disagree with what others have said you will find no need to be sarcastic.

Peter wrote:So according to bodum, study is unnecessary and according to Jechbi practice is also unnecessary. How lucky we are that awakening can come so easy.

To study is to know the texts,To practice is to know your defilements,To attain the goal is to know and let go.

Meditation isnt all there is. There was a story I read once that I think relates to this discussion.

There was a monk who, after hearing the dhamma from the buddha, went into the forest to practice attaing the jhanas. He spent a great deal of time trying to attain the jhanas but not matter how hard and long he practised he could not attain the jhanas. Then one day he decided to have a break and went to the river to wash. While he was there he seen a bubble in the water burst and contemplated his being as akin to the bubble bursting and at that moment he became englightened.

This is from my memory as i cant remember where i read it but this was generaly how the story went.

The dogmatists have claimed to have found the truth, others say that it cannot be apprehended; the Sceptics continue the search. Sextus Empiricus

clw_uk wrote:Meditation isnt all there is. There was a story I read once that I think relates to this discussion.

There was a monk who, after hearing the dhamma from the buddha, went into the forest to practice attaing the jhanas. He spent a great deal of time trying to attain the jhanas but not matter how hard and long he practised he could not attain the jhanas. Then one day he decided to have a break and went to the river to wash. While he was there he seen a bubble in the water burst and contemplated his being as akin to the bubble bursting and at that moment he became englightened.

This is from my memory as i cant remember where i read it but this was generaly how the story went.

He was still being mindful though. Mindfulness is meditation. Meditation is not only sitting in jhana.

To study is to know the texts,To practice is to know your defilements,To attain the goal is to know and let go.

The Snake10.8 "There are here, O monks, some foolish men who study the Teaching;9 having studied it, they do not wisely examine the purpose of those teachings. To those who do not wisely examine the purpose, these teachings will not yield insight.10 They study the Teaching only to use it for criticizing or for refuting others in disputation. They do not experience the (true) purpose11 for which they12 (ought to) study the Teaching. To them these teachings wrongly grasped, will bring harm and suffering for a long time. And why? Because of their wrong grasp of the teachings.

"Suppose, monks, a man wants a snake, looks for a snake, goes in search of a snake. He then sees a large snake, and when he is grasping its body or its tail, the snake turns back on him and bites his hand or arm or some other limb of his. And because of that he suffers death or deadly pain. And why? Because of his wrong grasp of the snake.

"Similarly, O monks, there are here some foolish men who study the Teaching; having studied it, they do not wisely examine the purpose of those teachings. To those who do not wisely examine the purpose, these teachings will not yield insight. They study the Teaching only to use it for criticizing or for refuting others in disputation. They do not experience the (true) purpose for which they (ought to) study the Teaching. To them these teachings wrongly grasped, will bring harm and suffering for a long time. And why? Because of their wrong grasp of the teachings.

11. "But there are here, O monks, some noble sons who study the Teaching;13 and having studied it, they examine wisely the purpose of those teachings. To those who wisely examine the purpose, these teachings will yield insight. They do not study the Teaching for the sake of criticizing nor for refuting others in disputation. They experience the purpose for which they study the Teaching; and to them these teachings being rightly grasped, will bring welfare and happiness for a long time. And why? Because of their right grasp of the teachings.

"Suppose, monks, a man wants a snake, looks for a snake, goes in search of a snake. He then sees a large snake, and with a forked stick he holds it firmly down. Having done so he catches it firmly by the neck. Then although the snake might entwine with (the coils of) its body that man's hand or arm or some other limb of his, still he does not on that account suffer death or deadly pain. And why not? Because of his right grasp of the snake.

"Similarly, O monks, there are here some noble sons who study the Teaching; and having learned it, they examine wisely the purpose of those teachings. To those who wisely examine the purpose, these teachings will yield insight. They do not study the Teaching for the sake of criticizing nor for refuting others in disputation. They experience the purpose for which they study the Teaching; and to them these teachings being rightly grasped, will bring welfare and happiness for a long time. And why? Because of their right grasp of the teachings.

12. "Therefore, O monks, if you know the purpose of what I have said, you should keep it in mind accordingly. But if you do not know the purpose of what I have said, you should question me about it, or else (ask) those monks who are wise.

clw_uk wrote:The scriptures are the message of the buddha, his disciples did study his word and reflect on it.

If one cannot get to a teacher then the suttas are extremely helpful to the practise.

They studied his word by putting into practice his word. Scriptural study is outward study. Practice is inward study.

"Do you know where it will end? Or will you just keep on studying like this? ...Or is there an end to it? ... That's okay but it's the external study, not the internal study. For the internal study you have to study these eyes, these ears, this nose, this tongue, this body and this mind. This is the real study. The study of books is just the external study, it's really hard to get it finished."

Im not denying the importance of studying the Buddhas words. It is important but only if you use it as a guide and not take it to be the truth itself. I know this is cliche' but Its the finger not the moon.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion … ...He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.John Stuart Mill

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion … ...He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.John Stuart Mill