Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.

Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

PA Comic: Wednesday, Jan 11, 2012 - The Way Forward

WiiU: munkusbeaver and Nintendo ID (3DS thinger): 0619-4510-9772
Steam name: munkus_beaver
Blizzard thing: munkus#1952
Twitter which gives health updates and the like: https://twitter.com/MunkusBeaver
Please give to the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America: http://www.ccfa.org/
Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.

"A new take on the epic fantasy genre... Darkly comic, relatable characters... twisted storyline."
"Readers who prefer tension and romance, Maledictions: The Offering, delivers... As serious YA fiction, I’ll give it five stars out of five. As a novel? Four and a half." - Liz EllorMy new novel: Maledictions: The Offering. Now in Paperback!

I must have missed something. Has anything been announced about Fifth Edition? I'm a relatively new to D&D, so this is exciting!

5th Edition has been announced as a thing Wizards of the Coast is working on

with this edition they are intending it to be both modular and "old school" (which is sort of mutually incompatible if you know anything about the old editions of D&D). They're attempting to reach out to their fans, both old and new, for input and playtesting.

5th Edition has been announced as a thing Wizards of the Coast is working on

with this edition they are intending it to be both modular and "old school" (which is sort of mutually incompatible if you know anything about the old editions of D&D). They're attempting to reach out to their fans, both old and new, for input and playtesting.

All good ideas in theory

In practice, you get this comic.

I've never played D&D, but I've DM'd a few 4e/essentials games, and had a lot of fun. I bought 3 months of D&D Insider, and went nuts. That was last year, so a new edition would probably light a new fire in my pants. Should I be this excited? I know the stipulation is for fans to get their panties in a bunch when a new version comes out.

Having teenaged RPG leads is really cool until you stop being a teenager yourself. Do you remember being seventeen? You're a dumbass at seventeen! I wanna be saved by the guy who's twenty-seven. He's at least payed taxes. He knows how to do shit. He can drive.

5th Edition has been announced as a thing Wizards of the Coast is working on

with this edition they are intending it to be both modular and "old school" (which is sort of mutually incompatible if you know anything about the old editions of D&D). They're attempting to reach out to their fans, both old and new, for input and playtesting.

All good ideas in theory

In practice, you get this comic.

I've never played D&D, but I've DM'd a few 4e/essentials games, and had a lot of fun. I bought 3 months of D&D Insider, and went nuts. That was last year, so a new edition would probably light a new fire in my pants. Should I be this excited? I know the stipulation is for fans to get their panties in a bunch when a new version comes out.

actually the majority of the D&D fanbase groans, bitches, and gnashes teeth every time a new edition comes out because it makes all their previously purchased books obsolete and leads to a further fragmentation of the fanbase between people who will adopt the new edition and people who will not.

I want to be able to have a really pretty character sheet running on an Android tablet, with my DM running his stuff from a laptop that automatically updates me with all the status and condition effects currently impacting me. Then I hit a button, a number is generated, and I succeed or fail (or pick another option). If I want to heal another party member, I click an ability, the request goes through the DM's screen, and gets sent through to the other party member, updating automatically.

It will be interesting to see how much of a technological leap WotC is willing to make, given that by the time it comes out, pretty much every phone will be a `smart' phone. Do we really need physical dice any more?

I would like to think that the advance will be more than looking up rules from a PDF.

WotC, historically, has fucked up every single piece of technological software or hardware integration into D&D

they literally have a track record of 0% successful pieces of software that they actually supported and functioned properly over time.

You can, currently, use your Insider membership to access databases of creatures and their online character creator thing but only via their site through a clunky web interface

They did, at one time, have a character generator program for 4e that was pretty slick and easy to use that you could download for free then unlock and update with a current Insider membership

they discontinued that program for the same reason they stopped releasing PDFs of their books: they were basically really easy to pirate.

When 3rd Edition came out, the PHB came with this nifty character creator program demo that they said they'd update and expand. That never happened.

When 4e came out, they said they'd have a Character Creator and monster database program and adventure making tools, which they did have... for a little while before they intentionally killed it and switched everything to clunky web databases to fight piracy.

When 4e came out, they said they'd have codes in the books you buy in the stores that would get you a digital copy and unlock that book for their tools and stuff. That happened... until they realize it basically aided piracy and they stopped doing that.

They also had grand plans for a digital tabletop feature where you could play online with people with a 3D program akin to the (totally free and fan-made) MapTool

that never happened

basically don't get your hopes up that WotC will do anything right re: computer technology

Some people will never accept a PRNG over dice despite the fact that all but the best dice will be more biased than a PRNG.

And this is an issue how? One of the joys of playing D&D is the superstition around dice. A few guys in my group still talk about the "root beer d20" that was lost almost 20 years ago. Apparently it could be relied on to roll a twenty every time you needed it to.

Some people will never accept a PRNG over dice despite the fact that all but the best dice will be more biased than a PRNG.

And this is an issue how? One of the joys of playing D&D is the superstition around dice. A few guys in my group still talk about the "root beer d20" that was lost almost 20 years ago. Apparently it could be relied on to roll a twenty every time you needed it to.

Also, get off my lawn.

Man this sort of superstition is both a massive boon for general hilarity and a really frustrating scapegoat.

Either way it's awesome and I wouldn't have it any other way, too many funny stories from the randomness of dice rolls.

5th Edition has been announced as a thing Wizards of the Coast is working on

with this edition they are intending it to be both modular and "old school" (which is sort of mutually incompatible if you know anything about the old editions of D&D). They're attempting to reach out to their fans, both old and new, for input and playtesting.

All good ideas in theory

In practice, you get this comic.

I've never played D&D, but I've DM'd a few 4e/essentials games, and had a lot of fun. I bought 3 months of D&D Insider, and went nuts. That was last year, so a new edition would probably light a new fire in my pants. Should I be this excited? I know the stipulation is for fans to get their panties in a bunch when a new version comes out.

actually the majority of the D&D fanbase groans, bitches, and gnashes teeth every time a new edition comes out because it makes all their previously purchased books obsolete and leads to a further fragmentation of the fanbase between people who will adopt the new edition and people who will not.

I was more implying that buying all the books for one edition can be expensive, and to suddenly be faced with the prospect of spending a similar sum of money on the next edition (if you want to play all the new stuff that will continue to get updates for the forseeable future) can be frustrating to some people, in addition to suddenly having your current set of books 'obselete' to an extent. I don't know what the pricing is like outside of Australia, but the books aren't even cheap to begin with.

That's not to say that pirating the stuff is justified, but I can certainly understand why people would (aside from the usual reasons for pirating, of course).

And naturally there is nothing stopping you just playing the ruleset you have and forgetting the existance of a new ruleset entirely, but some people are going to want to get on board will all the new stuff but may feel a little bitter that all the money they have spent so far will be essentially useless to the new ruleset.

I was more implying that buying all the books for one edition can be expensive, and to suddenly be faced with the prospect of spending a similar sum of money on the next edition (if you want to play all the new stuff that will continue to get updates for the forseeable future) can be frustrating to some people, in addition to suddenly having your current set of books 'obselete' to an extent. I don't know what the pricing is like outside of Australia, but the books aren't even cheap to begin with.

That's not to say that pirating the stuff is justified, but I can certainly understand why people would (aside from the usual reasons for pirating, of course).

And naturally there is nothing stopping you just playing the ruleset you have and forgetting the existance of a new ruleset entirely, but some people are going to want to get on board will all the new stuff but may feel a little bitter that all the money they have spent so far will be essentially useless to the new ruleset.

As far as I know, your books don't go up in flames when the new edition comes out. You can still use them...

WotC, historically, has fucked up every single piece of technological software or hardware integration into D&D

they literally have a track record of 0% successful pieces of software that they actually supported and functioned properly over time.

You can, currently, use your Insider membership to access databases of creatures and their online character creator thing but only via their site through a clunky web interface

They did, at one time, have a character generator program for 4e that was pretty slick and easy to use that you could download for free then unlock and update with a current Insider membership

they discontinued that program for the same reason they stopped releasing PDFs of their books: they were basically really easy to pirate.

When 3rd Edition came out, the PHB came with this nifty character creator program demo that they said they'd update and expand. That never happened.

When 4e came out, they said they'd have a Character Creator and monster database program and adventure making tools, which they did have... for a little while before they intentionally killed it and switched everything to clunky web databases to fight piracy.

When 4e came out, they said they'd have codes in the books you buy in the stores that would get you a digital copy and unlock that book for their tools and stuff. That happened... until they realize it basically aided piracy and they stopped doing that.

They also had grand plans for a digital tabletop feature where you could play online with people with a 3D program akin to the (totally free and fan-made) MapTool

that never happened

basically don't get your hopes up that WotC will do anything right re: computer technology

The current D&Di tools are incredibly useful, it sounds like you're just upset that you have to pay for them/can't pirate them. I have never heard anyone have so much distaste for such a handy set of tools, and as to a "clunky interface"...well, I just don't even get that. You cannot blame a company for wanting to actually make money for their product, either. And there totally is a Virtual Tabletop available to all subscribers right now.

I was more implying that buying all the books for one edition can be expensive, and to suddenly be faced with the prospect of spending a similar sum of money on the next edition (if you want to play all the new stuff that will continue to get updates for the forseeable future) can be frustrating to some people, in addition to suddenly having your current set of books 'obselete' to an extent. I don't know what the pricing is like outside of Australia, but the books aren't even cheap to begin with.

That's not to say that pirating the stuff is justified, but I can certainly understand why people would (aside from the usual reasons for pirating, of course).

And naturally there is nothing stopping you just playing the ruleset you have and forgetting the existance of a new ruleset entirely, but some people are going to want to get on board will all the new stuff but may feel a little bitter that all the money they have spent so far will be essentially useless to the new ruleset.

As far as I know, your books don't go up in flames when the new edition comes out. You can still use them...

The current D&Di tools are incredibly useful, it sounds like you're just upset that you have to pay for them/can't pirate them. I have never heard anyone have so much distaste for such a handy set of tools, and as to a "clunky interface"...well, I just don't even get that. You cannot blame a company for wanting to actually make money for their product, either. And there totally is a Virtual Tabletop available to all subscribers right now.

Man what? Did you ever use the old character creator? Far superior to the current version. I don't really have any issue with WotC putting out a new version of D&D, but I'm not going to pretend their handling of software hasn't been atrocious.

I was more implying that buying all the books for one edition can be expensive, and to suddenly be faced with the prospect of spending a similar sum of money on the next edition (if you want to play all the new stuff that will continue to get updates for the forseeable future) can be frustrating to some people, in addition to suddenly having your current set of books 'obselete' to an extent. I don't know what the pricing is like outside of Australia, but the books aren't even cheap to begin with.

That's not to say that pirating the stuff is justified, but I can certainly understand why people would (aside from the usual reasons for pirating, of course).

And naturally there is nothing stopping you just playing the ruleset you have and forgetting the existance of a new ruleset entirely, but some people are going to want to get on board will all the new stuff but may feel a little bitter that all the money they have spent so far will be essentially useless to the new ruleset.

As far as I know, your books don't go up in flames when the new edition comes out. You can still use them...

People say this like it's some kind of defense against publishing frequent and highly expensive relaunches of their entire RPG line

it isn't, and you know why?

Because of fanbase fracturing.

If you only ever play with the same people for the rest of your life and you and your friends are perfectly content to say "No, we're stopping here, we're just going to stick to the old edition" then cool

there's quite a few groups like that. there's still people playing 2nd or even 1st edition D&D, for cryin' out loud. but it does mean if you want to find other people to play D&D with (and, you know, the game does sort of require having other people to play with) then you now have the issue of which edition people are into playing.

the conversion to 4e is a really good example of this. When 4e came out, D&D was not only totally reinvisioned from the ground up with a completely different playstyle and balance to the previous edition, WotC also revised their Open Gaming Licence in such a way that it basically made it nearly impossible for third party companies to make publishing 4e products a feasible business model.

It specifically fucked over Paizo Publishing big time, whose business model at that point was almost entirely dependent on third party publishing of D&D supplement books and campaign settings. Paizo, in turn, released Pathfinder. Pathfinder is an alternative version of 3.5, which updates the rules and alters the base classes and corrects some (but not all) of the glaring problems and balance issues in 3.5. It's designed to be backwards compatible with 3.5 books, and Paizo has continued to support it with further publishings.

Some people hated 4e. Either they didn't like the changes made to the game, or they didn't want to buy a whole whack of new books, or both. Those people, the ones who didn't abandon playing D&D entirely, switched to Pathfinder for the most part.

This has led to a fragmented base, where you have two editions of D&D essentially competing against each other (and in the case of some Paizo employees, not exactly playing nice while doing so) for the same group of players in the same genre of roleplaying games

If I'm looking to play with some dudes that I meet in my local gaming shop, or some guys I meet from the forums, or whatever, and they're like "We're playing D&D!" I have no guarantee they're playing 4e. In fact, odds are just as likely they are actually playing Pathfinder. It's a fragmented base.

To draw a video gaming analogy, imagine Valve announced Team Fortress 3 was coming out tomorrow. None of your hats, weapons, or other DLC (which with TF2 many people buy with real money) will be compatible with the new game, and there will be new classes, some old classes will disappear or be drastically changed, and basic core gameplay concepts will be changed.

some people are like "Whooo! New Team Fortress!"

Others, who have invested not only quite a bit of time but also money into TF2, will say "I'm happy with just playing this game, thanks."

it now leads to the Team Fortress fanbase fragmenting into TF2 players, TF3 players, and people who play both with different groups of people

it's reasonable to find that frustrating, as a player and a fan, and it's reasonable to complain when it happens with increasing speed and frequency