97: Learn How to Build & Sell Your Business Step by Step with Nathan Latka

Nathan Latka, Founder of Heyo

From Dorm Room to Board Room with Nathan Latka

With personality and ego to spare, 26-year-old Nathan Latka just sold Heyo, the company he started in his dorm room, for undisclosed millions. Latka is on the prowl for his next big thing, and nothing is off the table

Don’t use the word “job” around Nathan Latka; it’s a tough one for him to hear. “I feel vomit come to my throat,” he says. Latka developed this allergic reaction while working his first and last job as a cashier at Target, where he handily beat out every other employee on an upsell initiative. If this was all the job world had to offer, he wanted no part.

In 2011, as an architecture student at Virginia Tech, Latka overheard a few fifth-year students discussing their career prospects, which were grim. With the financial crisis in full swing, no one was building, which meant that no one needed an architect.

From Hell No to Heyo

Latka couldn’t imagine sticking it out through all of those college classes only to discover that his professional prospects were unchanged. Feeling insecure about his life choices, he went back to his dorm room and did what any college guy would do—he started cold calling, in his underwear.

Soon Latka had pre-sold 70 Facebook fan pages at $7,000 a pop. The only problem? He had no idea how to code. So he took to YouTube, learned FBML (Facebook markup language) and started building. But instead of tackling each page individually, he developed a tool that allowed him to quickly drag and drop elements of the fan pages, the early iteration of the tool that would become the basis of his recurring business model. Clients paid $30 to $300 a month for access to the software, which they used to build their own Facebook fan pages.

How Not to Get Co-Founders

Latka moves quickly, perhaps too quickly sometimes. After selling those first 70 fan pages, he panicked and went on the hunt for technical co-founders. But instead of going through a long interview process, he started an entrepreneur’s club at Virginia Tech with the goal of attracting engineers. He walked into the first meeting with his PayPal statement in hand and offered 40% of the business to the first two engineers to raise their hands.

When those co-founders left a year later, they took 40% of the company with them. What followed was a four-year “emotional war,” during which Latka hustled to grow a business from which the two defunct co-founders continued to reap benefits.

His hard work paid off, though, and Heyo grew into a powerhouse of online campaign creation, a membership tool that allows users to create sweepstakes, contests, and campaigns to be published on mobile, Facebook, or anywhere else on the web.

Latka survived this period because of the amazing team that surrounded him. Eventually, an angel investor introduced him to a Mormon pastor who became his COO and the “co-founder” he always wanted. “I have a huge ego. It’s so good. It’s so powerful. I can use it in many ways. … It’s also super dangerous,” he says. An even-tempered pastor with some serious business chops was just what the company needed to find the perfect leadership balance.

From there, the company continued to grow, and it’s clear that Latka has a few favorite hacks. For starters, he points to the small “Powered by Heyo” note in the upper-right corner of every campaign published by a free user. Users’ competitors who saw the campaign often clicked through and set up an account themselves. That generated 30% of Heyo’s new customers every month. “It’s golden. it’s brilliant.”

King of the Webinar, Sultan of the Sales Call

Under Latka’s rule, the second-largest acquisition channel for Heyo was webinars, which generated $4.5 million in sales over a span of three years and more than 250 sessions. Latka personally appeared on each and every live webinar and brought on guest influencers to break up the events and gain exposure to a wider audience.

Sales calls provided another opportunity for Latka to showcase his savvy. His first Heyo sales call was with Carrie Wilkerson, aka The Barefoot Executive. Right out of the gate, Latka got Wilkerson talking by asking, “Are you really an executive?” Wilkerson immediately began talking about herself and explaining her business. “Get them talking about themselves and they will never hang up. No one hangs up on themselves,” Latka says.

A good rule of thumb is that for every one minute the sales person spends talking, the potential client should talk for 10. “Show me a sales transcript where the salesperson was talking more than the other side and I can almost predict with 100% certainty that they didn’t get the sale.”

How to Start a War and Sell a Company

First of all, you never announce that you want to sell your company. As soon as you do, it looks like you are a wounded animal, struggling to make ends meet. That is, of course, unless you plan to employ some of the tactical practices Latka did.

On a lark, he decided to see what would happen if a set of business developers thought Heyo was up for grabs. So he crafted an email that appeared to be intended for Heyo customers, announcing that it was shutting down and outlining how they should prepare. Then he put the email addresses of 15 potential buyers in the BCC line and hit send.

Within 24 hours he had seven interested parties. He told each that he was planning to make a decision by the end of the week; if they were serious, they should send a letter of intent with their offer. This got the business developers’ egos wrapped up in doing a deal. Latka knew that an LOI would require executive approval and no one wants to lose a deal they pitch to their boss.

After two rounds of “is this your best offer,” Latka got four companies to double their original offers and then half of those doubled them again. By Friday he was signing a deal to sell Heyo to his biggest competitor, Votigo. “You can’t ask people to buy your company, so you have to think unconventionally, get outside the box. I wanted to get a bidding war going and it worked.”

Courageous Hustling

One of Latka’s defining characteristics is his courage, which he attributes to knowing that even if he fails and he loses everything, he’ll be OK. “I know where I can find shelter at night. I know the dumpster where the local sushi place puts all of their old rice. I will be fine with nothing. Once you truly believe that you will be fine with nothing it allows you to go out and take on anything.”

The courage to drop out of college and build and sell Heyo was just the beginning. For his next act, Latka is looking to build a company that will go public before he turns 30. Just for kicks, he also plans on being a 2036 contender for U.S. president, and building the world’s largest hedge fund. So in case you were wondering—yes his ego is still going strong, and yes, Nathan Latka is just getting started.

Epic Webinars 101

Great Influencers = Great Audiences … or is it Great Audiences = Great Influence?

In whichever direction you begin the cycle, the result is the same: epic acquisitions. Finding the right influencers is all about looking at their current email subscriber lists. Latka would cruise websites that boasted huge subscriber lists and then email those founders to get them on a Heyo webinar.

The benefit to the influencer was exposure to the Heyo audience; for Heyo, they gained exposure to the influencer’s audience and a guest to break up the session (more on this later).

Lights, Camera, Action-Packed Event

Latka is quick to recognize that the number of people logged on to the webinar is irrelevant. The real indicator is engagement. To keep participants from tuning out, he suggests breaking up your voice by switching between your own knowledge and that of your guest influencer.

Just like a conversation, the live webinars worked best when there was give and take. During the first three to five slides, Latka would introduce himself, then he would ask the audience to do the same via polls.

Sample Poll Questions:

Who are you? A) entrepreneur, B) stuck in corporate because of a safe paycheck, C) just getting my feet wet.

How much revenue are you making? A) less than $100,000, B) more than a $100,000 but less than 1 million, C) $1 million or more.

How big is your email list? A) less than 500, B) 500 to 3,000, C) more than 3,000.

The answers to these questions are then used in real time to drive up sales. Latka would specifically mention the largest groups when he pitched the premium Heyo membership at the end of the webinar. He would also match the results with the analytics on the webinar to identify individuals who would make good fits for partnerships or future webinar guest appearances. Great revenue numbers? Potential partner. Colossal email list? Future guest influencer.

These small CTAs woven throughout the webinar kept participants actively engaged. Latka’s final trick? Silence. Being silent will get the participants, who will start checking their internet connection and wondering if they just missed something. It’s a beautiful trick.

What Can You Do in 4 Years?

This is what Heyo looked like when it sold in February of this year:

Raised $2.5M in capital

10,000 monthly paying customers at $30-$300/month

$5M in annual recurring revenue

25 full-time employees

Key Takeaways

How to start thinking more creatively as an entrepreneur

The best way you can attract and work with top-level influencers

Different ways you can start selling even if you have no product

The power of the webinar and how to harness it

His personal growth hacking techniques and sales process

Full Transcript of the Podcast with Nathan Latka

Nathan: Hey, guys. My name is Nathan Chan, host of the Foundr Podcast coming to you from Melbourne Australia. Live, repping my hometown, and today’s guest is Nathan Latka. Someone that has the same name as me and this guy is a serious hustler. I connected with Nathan about a year ago where he asked me to come on to his podcast and it was not familiar with what he’d been up to, but he built this really successful SaaS company called Heyo and he ended up selling it at ridiculous multiples.

And we get to learn the backstory of how he created that company, a lot of the rookie amateur kind of mistakes that some people can make and how you can avoid them when you’re starting out and also, just more than anything, what it really takes to just hustle. And Nathan is an absolute hustler. This is his first company. I have so much respect for what Nathan has done in such a short period of time.

And what’s really funny is Nathan always…in his own podcast, he always talks about, you know, what companies are earning, and he really presses the founder to find out, and he’s very, very good at it. So, I kind of flipped the switch on him, which was really fun, and I actually found out…well, you guys actually find out…you can pretty much guess, you know, once he once he talks. And if you listen to every part of this episode, how much he actually ended up selling Heyo for. So what’s really interesting is we get to hear the journey from start to exit and then what is next. And now, also, how Nathan’s looking and identifying his next startup opportunities and what he’s going to create.

Fascinating interview, had a lot of fun with this one. Nathan was very generous with how much gold he gave away. So I think you guys are gonna really, really enjoy this one. So that’s it from me, now let’s jump in. All right. Well, look, the first question I ask everyone that comes on is, how did you get your job?

Latka: Yeah. So what I…job is such a hard word for me. Like, I feel vomit just come on my throat what I even think about job. But the fact of the matter is, you know, my first “job” was 40-hour week set target, which, you know, I learned how to sell. I learned…they wanted us to upsell, Nathan, these little cards at checkout where you could become a target member. And I sold so many of those things that I got bored so fast.

So I knew I would never have a job again and that’s when, fast forward to 2011, I was studying architecture at Virginia Tech here in the States. Dropped out and launched my software business, which we went on to raise two and a half million dollar as a venture capital, and I just recently sold that when I turned 26 years old here in February of 2016.

Nathan: Gotcha, and you know had how did that software business come about Heyo. Like, talk me through that. So you she worked on for five years?

Latka: Yeah. It was great. Yeah, it was five years. Dude, and there’s nothing sexy about this story. I know people like to say, “Well, I was broken on the streets, and I had nothing, and then, boom, something magical happened, and now I’m successful.” But fact of the matter was, I was studying architecture at Tech. I overheard fifth years, Nathan, who were…I mean. you remember…oh, in ’09, even down there in Australia, huge economic crisis, right?

Nathan: Yeah.

Latka: So, nobody was building, which meant nobody was hiring architects. So there was no way I was gonna put myself through five years of school, and not have a guaranteed job at the end and that’s what I said. I got really insecure that day. I went home. I was wearing my ex-girlfriends Christmas boxers she bought me, in my dorm room, you know, this 10 foot by 12 foot white cinderblock dorm room, and I started picking up the phone and just cold calling people that had Facebook fan pages, selling $700 custom Facebook fan pages, and that was the start.

Nathan: Yeah, well, and my fan pages?

Latka: Yeah, a good question. To be quite honest with you, Facebook was something that I knew and I was familiar with, just because as a college student I was using it a lot, right? So my whole thing was…I was very, very lazy, in fact, I still I’m. I think the most successful people, by the way, are the laziest. You know why? They know how to maximize their time because they’re so lazy. Busy people keep their calendars full, they brag about, you know, there’s 7,000 meetings. I think the best calendar, the calendars of billionaires, you know what they look like? They’re blank. There’s nothing on them. They’re blank. Why is that, Nathan? They’re blank.

So anyways, yeah, I launched the business and quickly pivot it to…you know, after I sold about 70 grand from my dorm room, finally taught myself…so I sold 100 pages, at 700 bucks a pile. All in PayPal, no idea how to build these things. So I taught myself to code by watching YouTube videos and I taught myself FBML, Facebook Markup Language. Nathan, do you remember that.

Nathan: No. not familiar man.

Latka: All right. Yeah, that’s Facebook Markup Language and quickly turned it into a monthly recurring business where people could pay me 30 to 300 bucks a month to use the software, which they could use to drag-and-drop together their own Facebook fan pages. So we grew that to about almost 40 grand per month in revenue. Nathan, this was like…I’m like pre-puberty, okay? I’m like 12, right, when I’m doing this. I’m like 12 years old, okay? So it started growing and we raised a round of angel financing. Do you think your audience, Nathan, is familiar with angel financing or should I go into detail there?

Nathan: No. They will know that.

Latka: Okay, great. Yeah, so we raised $550,000 on a convertible note, and 8% interest rate, a 25% discount, and a $5.5 million cap on that note. From some of the world’s, I mean, Nathan, they’re really the world’s most intelligent angel investors. You know, folks like David Cohen who created Techstars. I mean, he is the guy that created Techstars, invested along with many other smart folks. So that takes us up through about 2011 when we did that angel…or 2012 when did that angel round.

Nathan: Gotcha and when you said way, you started from the you have co-founders, team? Talk us through that, man.

Latka: I screwed this up so bad, like, you wouldn’t believe. People are gonna be listening going, “What was Nathan thinking?” Here’s what I did, I had 70 grand in pre-sales, taught myself to code, hated coding. I said, “I need to find technical co-founders very fast. How do I do this?” I created the entrepreneurial club at Virginia Tech specifically to attract engineers without them knowing that I wanted to hire them because I wanted to keep leverage. And at one of the first meetings that semester I said, “Okay, I have a business. I’ve 100%. It already has 70 grand in sales. Here’s my PayPal account.” I basically said, Nathan, “The first two engineers to raise your hand, get 40% of business,” right?

Nathan: Wow.

Latka: Who wants it, right? And two guys raise their hand and I said, “Okay, you guys forgot that you wanna split the 40, but boom. We’ll start tomorrow. We’ll sign the founders agreements, and let’s go. That was it.

Nathan: That’s crazy. Where did you get that advice from men?

Latka: Well, it was the stupidest thing I’ve ever done so I would recommend it, but it worked, you know.

Nathan: So, down to this day, were your co-founders?

Latka: They were. Now, they only lasted about a year at the company but a big mistake I made was only…I had them signed founder agreements, neither of them signed on a vesting schedule. So in other words, they left the company a year in, they took 40% of business with them. So that what you’d call un …what I call that is unallocated working cap table, right? Which means, how much equity is out of the business from people that are not actively working on it. That was a huge mistake I made.

Nathan: Wow. So when you exited they got paid too.

Latka: Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah, that’s…it was…can you imagine building a business? So they left and I hustled for four more years before the exit. Every time I got a big contract, I’m going, “I hate the fact that two founders that are doing nothing for the business are getting payback because I’m going to valuation the business.” It was an emotional war but look, it’s business. It’s tough. It was a lesson and frankly, I bought back some of the equity.

Nathan: Oh, you bought some back. How much?

Latka: Yeah. A good chunk. We’ll call it over 15%.

Nathan: Yeah. Okay. That’s good then. Oh, that’s right.

Latka: Yeah.

Nathan: So tell me what happened, like, why did these…you know, you made a mistake there, what happened? And this was…you brought on these co-founders before you raised, right? You did your angel…

Latka: That’s correct. Yup. That’s correct. The answer is…I mean, you know this Nathan, the best profile someone to start a business with is somebody that has no spouse, no kids, no car, no debt, they can live anywhere, no house payments, no responsibilities except the business, right? Fact of the matter there was one co-founder, you know, was just getting married, all right? You know and wanted to move. The other one was thinking about moving already and was looking to settle down with his girlfriend. You know, they wanted to buy a house, and they were gonna have all these other responsibilities, and then one of them was gonna think about having a kid. Frankly, they weren’t in a mode where they could go in and hustle and do 16 and a 17-hour a day, to be quite frank.

Nathan: Yeah. Wow. So you just ended up firing them?

Latka: Well, that was the other problem, because the founders agreements, we had no way to fire them, right? So there was literally a year that had gone by where one of these folks literally would sit in team meetings, we did group consensus after brainstorming for, you know, a new product feature after an hour and I’d say, “Anyone have any last concerns?” And he would go, “Yeah, I don’t agree.” And we’d all go, “Brian,” Oops, I shouldn’t say the name, “But why didn’t you agree?” You know what he’d say? He’d say, “Nathan, I disagree because I don’t wanna see you win.”

Nathan: Oh, my God, man.

Latka: Right. It was that toxic for almost a year but I just pushed through hell and high water to make it happen, and I had an amazing, amazing team around me after that. And look, those guys by the way, very smart, very successful. We just didn’t work, right? We just didn’t work.

Nathan: Yeah, well. So after…so you raised, you still had those guys in your team, unfortunately. Did you end up after they left, get new co-founders, technical co-founders or not really?

Latka: Yes, so we…not new co-founders, right, because that’s hard, two years into the business for someone to truly feel like a co-founder but I did recruit my chief operating officer, who I looked at as a co-founder, from New York. Got him to move him, his wife, and his two kids, which was great and he’s 35, down from New York. And here’s why I loved him, I have a huge ego. It’s so good. It’s so powerful. I can use my ego in such good ways. It’s also dangerous, right, Nathan? It’s like super dangerous if it goes unchecked. So this guy was a Mormon pastor, okay? Can you imagine the conversations, me with my big ego and I’m Mormon pastor would have? Can you imagine that?

Nathan: Yeah, crazy, man.

Latka: I mean it was fun. It was great. We balanced each other. So he kind of became like my co-founder.

Nathan: Gotcha, and had you made him…how did you convince him to move across?

Latka: So he was actually introduced to me by one of our angel investors, who said, “Nathan, I think his personality will match with you. He’s looking to move to a startup, you know, you should meet with him.” I had a few Skype conversations with him. I paid for him to come visit one time, and then boom, we moved forward. Gave him a little bit of equity. He joined the business and he was with us. Actually, he’s with us. He’s now with the company that actually acquired us, called VOTIGO, V-O-T-I-G-O, our number one competitor.

Nathan: Gotcha, so you were acquired by your number one competitor?

Latka: Yeah, I mean, and this was…I mean, we skipped about three years in there but, you know, we raised 550 grand a convertible note and then we raised $2 million from a Forbes billionaire. You know, I used something that I very rarely talked about because it’s like magic. It’s like my genie in a bottle. It’s like…actually, you know what I call it, Nathan? I call it “my freedom button.”

This thing what it allows me to do is, when I send an email to someone, like, when I’m pitching investors, it’ll allow me to know: when they open the email, how long they spent in the email, and I can also say when I send the email…I can say, “Hey email inbox, remind me in 10 days if no one replies this email. Bring it back to the top of my inbox that way don’t have to think about it.”

So I use this little tool that I’d built for myself and that was a tool that I used to help close the $2 million from a Forbes billionaire. I knew when he opened it. I knew he was interested. So we in total raise $2.5 million in capital. You know, drove over $5 million in revenue, 25 full-time employees, 10, 000 monthly paying customers before we sold to VOTIGO.

Nathan: Gotcha. And I’m curious, are you able to say who this billionaire was or that’s…?

Latka: Yeah, RJ Kirk. Anybody can google him, RJ Kirk. He is actually the creator of Adderall the drug. He’s in biotech. So, you know, I don’t know what it is today, but he’s generally on the Forbes lists, number 137 with a net worth somewhere between $3 billion and $5 billion.

Nathan: Gotcha, and how did you identify him as a potential investor that would be a good fit for you if he’s in biotech?

Latka: Yeah, location. He grew up right, you know, in Virginia close to where we were based so he had some emotional buy-in, plus he had a family office there that was looking to make local investments. So that how, you know, that’s how we kind of fell into that.

Nathan: Gotcha. So let’s go back…you raised, you know, you raised two and a half million and you said you pivoted too?

Latka: Yeah. Well, I mean, this was part of the intriguing story. The reason we raised $2 million was because we were gonna start investing in something called “Social Commerce” while our core business, the fan page builder, continued to go. And so, ultimately, what happened here is I sent an email…you know, we’re trying to figure out what do we do with our core business, right, if that’s not only raises capital for. So I sent an email out to about 15 potential buyers of that business, in our space. And the email is a Gmail, and I put all these business development guys in a BCC field, okay?

And your audience, by the way, they’re gonna love this. They’re gonna listen to it, they’re gonna go, “I’m gonna copy this so fast because it works so well.” What we did is I…the email headline or subject line said, “heyo.com is shutting down. Here are the next steps da da da.” When you open the email, it looked like a mass email to our customer base that we were shutting down, right? So my planning…why are you laughing?

Nathan: Because I love your strategies, man. I’ve always been impressed with your hostile. Even though, before we connected, I was always like…so someone in my team, “He is nice and like a guy, he’s good. I like how he operates.” Because you make me laugh, bro.

Latka: That’s awesome.

Nathan: I got respect for your hustle, man.

Latka: That’s awesome. I mean, look, the fact the matter is these business development guys, they don’t do a deal unless they sense blood in the water, right? And what I mean by that is most people, Nathan…when people are thinking of selling a company, what’s the…you know the general advice people give, right, when selling your company. They say, “You can’t sell your company.” That you lose leverage if you are asking to be bought. You have to have someone approach you, right?

Nathan: Yeah, of course.

Latka: So you’ve heard that many times. I’m sure some of your guests have shared that. So I said, “Okay, well, what if I could, like, just fake some blood in the water so they sensed a deal. And if I could attach their ego to that kind of blood that I put in the water, then I would win. I’d bid them up.” So I sent this email out to 20 of them, 7 of them wrote back very, very interested, and I said, “I’m making a decision whether to sell it on Friday at 5:00 p.m. If you’re interested in send me an LOI.”

So of those seven, okay, about five of them sent me an actual letter of intent, that’s the first step of the acquisition process, and they were all lowball offers, right, because they thought they were getting a deal. I said, “We’re shutting it down.” They’re going, “Wait, Nathan, before shut it down, can we buy it?” I’m going, “Ah, I don’t really wanna sell it. I don’t want to take the time to do it but if you’re interested give me an offer.”

And so we got seven and I immediately wrote back Nathan, and I said…there’s not a better word for it but I basically said, “I’m gonna screw with these people, right? I’m gonna have some fun, right? I put my blood sweat and tears in this damn thing for five years I got to maximize the value,” right? so I wrote back and I said, “Before…” and this is critical, people should write this down, “Before I make a decision is this your best offer?” That’s all I wrote back to the email, five words, “Is this your best offer?”

Now, put yourself in these BD guy’s shoes, they had already taken this deal because they’ve given me an LOI. So they had to have got internal approval from their companies to do this, which means that BD guy’s ego is now attached to the deal. In other words, if he doesn’t get us as a deal, he has to go back to his CEO, and their team, and say, “Hey, guys. I lost the deal,” right? So they know the wanna win. They are playing the board game. I got them to sit down the table and play the game even with five lowball offers. So I wrote back I said is this your lowest? By Wednesday morning that same week, okay, three of them…sorry, four of them had doubled their offer. They literally just wrote back, double their LOI offer. Can you believe that? Five words doubled their offer.

Nathan: Right, well, so let me get this straight, you just decided that you were ready to sell, and you just put it out10 to almost unofficially?

Latka: Yeah, so I wanted to see if there’s gonna be any…if I could get a bidding more going, right? And we’d sell it if we could get a bidding more going because we raised the cow from a focus on social commerce, something totally different. Yeah, so that first round worked really well and I’m like, “You know, if it worked well once, I should do it again.” So when these people doubled their offer, four of them doubled it, and wrote back…I wrote back on that Wednesday and said, “Hey, your offers are not competitive, are you sure this is your best offer before I decide on Friday? And Nathan, what do you think happened?

Nathan: Doubled again.

Latka: Not all of them. I’m not that good, two of them, two of them wrote back and doubled it. So by using the words “is this your best offer,” I got people to go from…let’s say they started off offering 5 million for the business, they quadrupled. So they doubled to10, they doubled again, 10 to 20. So I then decided to sign the LOI that Friday with a company called VOTIGO. We went through a few…you know, a very short period of due diligence and they ended up buying the company.

So, you know, that process of selling your business, folks, I just encourage you to think unconventionally. If you have an asset you’re trying to sell, people always say, “You can’t go beg people to buy.” So think about is there some kind of vulnerability you can throw in the water to potential buyers to latch them on to you and then, bid them against each other. That’s, I think, a great approach to think about.

Nathan: Yeah, that’s gold. So you were just kind of fishing? You weren’t 100% you want to sell. You just wanted to see if it was possible and then you got your number, and then now I’m too new and bigger better things, right?

Latka: Yeah, we got it we got a good bidding war going. And by the way, Forbes just wrote about this, they hit me so hard Nathan. They said, “Oh, this guy…” you know, they say, “Oh, well, he didn’t do this the right way. He didn’t hire an investment banker.” That’s because Forbes is in bed with investment bankers, right? I mean, they, like, have sponsors who are like investment bankers. So Forbes didn’t like that I’m doing this in such a weird way, right, but it worked, and it worked wonderfully.

Nathan: Yeah, well, we done. So I’m curious, dude, where does this hustle come from because this is your that was your first business, right?

Latka: Well, I was selling t-shirts to sorority girls before that, that on the front said, “You’d tweet these,” and on the back, it had their Twitter handle.

Nathan: That’s hilarious, yeah.

Latka: But that wasn’t scalable.

Nathan: So first serious business…like, where does this hustle come from, man, because I really like your savvy operated, dude? So where does this a hustle come from?

Latka: This is like a great opportunity for me to say something really good that makes me sound really good at smart and the fact the matter is I have nothing. I got nothing for you. I don’t know what it is. You know what I will tell you is I think one of the reasons I am so aggressive and different in some of the things that I try is I know that everything fails, and I’d lose everything.

I’ve already put myself in a mind where I know where I can find shelter to stay out of the rain, and I know the local sushi shop. I know where they put other extra rice every night, I know the dumpster so I can always have rice to eat but I will be okay. I will wake up. I will live. I will be fine, and once you truly believe you will be fine with nothing, it allows you to go and take on anything and that’s so key.

Nathan: Mmm, so you fearless?

Latka: Yeah, I mean, I just know when I’m thinking about, “Wow this is kind of an aggressive email to send, should I send it?” I’m going, “Yeah, because if everything backfires I’ll be fine.”

Nathan: Yeah. I got you. So talk us through the growth stage of how you managed to scale up Heyo to…you said it was 5 million as an annual recurring revenue?

Latka: Yeah, so we got up to about, again, 10,000 paying customers. The economics all most customers as they pay anywhere between 30 bucks a month and 300 bucks a month, that was our ARPU. And our customer acquisition cost was typically about one-third of lifetime value. Lifetime value, those folks stayed for anywhere between 40 and 45 months paying that monthly fee. So we’d pay it, you know, about one-third of 40 months times, 30 bucks at the minimum.

Nathan: Gotcha, and what were your number-one sources of customer acquisitions, like, how did you scale it?

Latka: So about 30% of our new customers every month came from something very simple. When a free user published a campaign using Heyo, we’d put, “Powered by Heyo,” in the upper right. And when their competitors were impressed with those campaigns, their competitors would click through and then sign up as well. So we…you know, that is the whole scent I got that idea…

Latka: And by the way, for folks listening, that’s the best kind of marketing. Do anything like that? Do you drive back…you know, drive up a readership of Foundrs?

Nathan: No, but we have a few viral kind of loop experiments that we were about to roll out for a few other things.

Latka: Yeah.

Nathan: Yeah, it’s going nice.

Latka: Yeah, that is critical. If you get the math to work right, I gotta tell you, man, it’s golden. It’s just brilliant. The number one way that wasn’t that was webinars. We did…I mean, Nathan, you probably saw some of these. We did webinars, like, you wouldn’t believe. I mean, like, crazy and we would…what we would do is, we would invite our own list, and then we would get three or four influencers to also invite their list. We’d give the three or four influencers, you know, five minutes to share a tactic or learning so that they get exposed to my audience. Then I would deliver content and then sell Heyo on the end, at $300 annual plan. So, you know, when we sold…I mean, I think, probably 90…about $4.5 million worth of our sales came directly through webinars.

Nathan: Yeah, well, so how long were you doing webinars for?

Latka: Years, two, three years?

Nathan: So how many reckon you’ve done?

Latka: Oh my gosh, I mean, 200 to 300.

Nathan: So how many webinars were you doing per week because you said you’ve invited your list and influencers, so does that mean you a mailing your whole email database every time or…?

Latka: Yeah. So what I would do is at once a month I would email all database, about the four webinars. We had about, you know, one per week sometimes. Sometimes we’d do two or three per week but we would email my list or our list once and list all the links, right, to all the webinars. And the influencers, that would come on, would email probably a dedicated email to their list about their one episode.

Nathan: Gotcha. And did you share the leads with the influencer?

Latka: No. we didn’t do anything like that. We didn’t do any, like, you know, they’d get X file or anything like that. I mean, we probably would have if they’d asked, most people didn’t ask to be quite honest with you. They just knew that we had webinars and we were putting thousands of people on webinars. They wanted that exposure. The hardest part of doing all of this was…I mean, Nathan, a lot of it my process was every Monday I would sit down and from about 9:00 a.m. to cold 11:00 a.m., two hours.

I would go use this little tool that I created for myself where I would send cold emails to people that I thought had big lists because I go to their website and they’d say, “Join my list with over 35,000 people on it,” right? I’d reach out to those people with a cold pitch and I use this…again, this little tool that I built it’s…you know, I’m actually considering letting other people use it because it really helped me build Heyo but…the tool is at nathanlatke.com/thetopinbox and it has, by the way, like to users, right?

I use it myself. I didn’t want other people don’t know. It doesn’t have a logo, to be honest with you. But I used that tool to send out emails and I would get notifications when those emails got opened. I would get…I had a “Send Later” features on it. So if I was emailing you Nathan in Australia on a different time zone, I would make sure I sent the…like I’d write it now but I hit “Send Later” and I would make sure it goes in your Inbox about 6:00 a.m. in your morning. So that you would get it first, right? You would knock it out first.

Nathan: Gotcha.

Latka: And it had other things built in there like just all reminders for myself, “Hey, bring this email to the top of my inbox if Nathan Chan doesn’t open it within the next three days, or doesn’t click the link in the next three days, or doesn’t reply in the next three days.” So that worked well, and having that system…or you can use a Google Doc if…but having that system to constantly follow up with folks is really key.

Nathan: Yeah, that’s gold. And see what you have is a combination of what I use between Rebump and Boomerang.

Latka: Oh, yeah. Yup, yup, yup.

Nathan: Yeah.

Latka: That’s right. Yeah, I mean dude, if you…it’s actually embarrassing nathanletka.com/thetopinbox. Haven’t gone there well but you’ll see, yeah, there’s like no logo, right? I mean, this looks like…it looks like a total scam if you go do it, and the fact is I spent, Nathan…I don’t know, I spend about 4,700 bucks to have this personally built for me to use. I mean, just because there was some other ones that just didn’t do what I wanted them to do and so I use this for free for so long I just did so well for me.

Nathan: Gotcha. So, you did webinars a lot. Can we draw on some of your experience from sales? Like, just sales in general where they’re selling one-to-many, one-to-one, where they are not selling on webinars? What some key takeaways people can have?

Latka: I think the biggest thing…look, if you showed me the audio transcript of any sales call and the salesperson was talking more than the other side, I can almost predict with 100% uncertainty they didn’t get the sale, right? I think the key to a good sales thing is you should talk like…for every minute you’re talking, the person you’re selling to should talk for 10 minutes. So if I was selling…actually, Nathan, my first sales call…one of my first to Carrie Wilkerson from the Barefoot Executive.

I called her cold she picks up. I go, “Is this Carrie.” She goes, “Yeah.” I go, “Carrie, see that you call yourself “The Barefoot Executive” on your Facebook page, are you really an executive?” She’s thinking like, “Screw you. Like who are you to…like, who are you?” Right? I knew two things would happen, she either hang up, okay, which she did it, or she would go and try and articulate why she’s an executive. And so, I would…you know, no one ever, in the history of the world, I don’t think, Nathan, has hung up on themselves while they’re talking, right? So if you can get the other person talking you have 100% chance they’re not gonna hang up on you, right? So talk less. I mean, that’s really critical, talk less.

Nathan: Gotcha and how do you do that in webinars though?

Latka: So, okay, great question. I always give an example of me doing one to one. On a webinar, totally different story. A webinar you have a few things that you have to battle with. The first, just because you have, you know, 300 people live doesn’t mean a thing, right? You know, and go to webinars they say, “Oh, 300 people live,” because people have minimized your screen, they’ve tuned out, they’re distracted. You don’t know if they’re actually looking at your screen and actively listening.

So you have to make sure you build little call-to-actions into your webinars to make sure people keep listening to your voice because…maybe, Nathan, liked this interview, for example, my voice is becoming than normal. So people might start tuning out. Now, thankfully, they probably tune back in when your voice comes in, right, because I know it’s a change in subject. But you have to figure out to keep people actually actively listening to the webinar. You need to figure out a break up your voice, either play a YouTube video, have a co-host, or actually stop talking.

Say, “Hey, look at my screen right now. What do guys think about this button, or this stat, and then just do this,” right? And everyone’s like, “Oh, crap. Did I miss it? Are they off? Did my internet cut off?” And they tune back in, right?

Nathan: Yeah, that’s killer. And you do a lot of polling and stuff, I’ve never been to any webinars, but I think someone told me you do a lot of polling is that, right?

Latka: Well, people are talking about me. This is not good. People are talking about my strategies. Yeah, I do the polling and here’s why I profile match. So the first few slides of my webinar as, “Hey, I’m Nathan. Here’s everything about me.” Now, what’s a natural thing to do newcomer and after I introduce myself, Nathan, what would you do?

Nathan: Talk about myself the introduce myself.

Latka: Exactly. No one ever does it on webinar. Why not? You should. So we bought a poll that says, “Hey,” and I say, “Hey, you guys just learned everything about me but I have no idea who you are. Would you mind just tell me a little bit about yourself? Pick one of the poll options, who are you?” And they will say like, “Entrepreneur, less than 100 can revenue,” you know, “I’m stuck in corporate,” right? “Safe salary,” right? You know, author, speaker, influence or whatever.

And I’ll then get a real quick, you know, 60% are entrepreneurs that make less than 100 grand. So guess what? First 47 minutes to the sales pitch, I’m gonna say, “If you’re listening right now, and you’re wondering if this is right for you, and you’re not entrepreneur that’s making less than 100 grand per month, this is the perfect fit for you,” right, because I know the majority of listeners are that exact profile. They told me that in the webinar.

Nathan: Got you.

Latka: So if you see what I mean? I use the polling results in real time to drive sales up. You know, we get about 30% of people that were live on those webinars would buy a minute 47.

Nathan: At minute 47?

Letka: Yeah, that’s what you…typically about a minute 45 to 47 is when I really got into our sales pitch.

Nathan: Oh, 45 to 47, gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha.

Letka: Yeah.

Nathan: Okay, I see. So you’re polling all the way throughout or…?

Latka: Yup, I’ll ask question. You know, the first question I always ask is, who are you? General question. You know, the next one I’ll ask is something along the lines of, how much revenue are you making, right? So getting they’ll say, you know, “Less than a grand, or less than a 100 grand, 100 100 500 grand, or 500 to 1 million, or 1 million plus.” Anyone that internet poll said a million plus I’m reaching out to and trying to partner with after the webinar. All right, I’m going, “What are they doing, right? Let’s, partner.”

Nathan: I mean, you just look for the analytics and go to web but not to see who they were?

Letka: Exactly, and, Nathan, here’s a little tactic. I’ll tell you people always go, “Nathan, how do you get partners for webinars?” You wanna know what I did? I don’t think I’ve ever shared this, by the way. I’m gonna give it you chi, are you ready?

Nathan: Yeah, boom. Let’s do it.

Latka: I would always ask how big is your email list, right? So, anyone that answered 30 grand or more, you know what I’m doing? I’m calling them after the webinar, and going, “Hey, you wanna partner on the next webinar?”

Nathan: Yeah, I got you.

Latka: So I would use one webinar to just get more webinar and just…it was a snowball.

Nathan: Gotcha. And were you managing all this yourself or, like, I’m curious around your team, how do you structure this? Were you always doing the webinars or you had people on your team doing the webinars?

Letka: My ego was way too big to not have me doing them live. Look, and maybe I’m being a little like humbler or whatever here, but I mean, first of all, I have a big ego. But honestly, I’m really good…I mean, I think, I’m probably top 1% and in the world at live presenting and getting people convincing and live to do what I want. We try to have other people do it and they just…they won’t get anywhere near the numbers that I would get. So I kept doing the live presentation but everything else, the slide deck design, the co-marketing, the follow-up, the analytics, the live chat during the webinar, I had team members handle all of that.

Nathan: Got you, got you, got you got you. Awesome. And let’s just switch gears, you know, we’ve really tackled I think that Heyo pace, but what’s next for you, man, because I can see you building something else for sure? Probably a SaaS product. I think last time we spoke you said you wanted to do something 100 times bigger. So to tell me, like, since we last spoke have you worked out what that thing is next? How did you work that out? Are you taking a big break? What does it feel like to sell your company?

Latka: Well, I’m 26, right, you know. My goal is to take a company public by the time I turn 30, okay, on the US stock exchange. I will do it, Nathan, mark my words. You have it you’re recorded, I will do it, right? And so what I’m doing right now is I’m very much in a hunting mode, I am looking for the industry I wanna go after.

And the way I’m doing that is I started having just calls with some of the world’s top CEOs. I always got permission…I recorded those calls and I would just ask them on these phone calls, “What was your revenue last year? How much money did you make? What are your margins? What’s your equities with your co-founders? What was your valuation, right? How are you getting new paying customers? Hard tough question then I quickly realized other people one of those chats, so I turn that into a podcast. Have you listened to the podcast?

Nathan: Of course, man. You interviewed me two times, bro.

Latka: Well, I don’t know…that doesn’t mean you listened to, you know, get on show, they haven’t listened to a damn episode, right? I mean, its like, it drives me crazy.

Nathan: Yeah, I’ve listen to a few. I had to because I remember you messaged me, like, privately I think through Facebook or through Heyo. It was really weird for our Foundr Facebook page you message and I was just looking at it, just by chance. And you said, “Oh, hey, dude. You know, wanna come on my podcast?” And I just usually say, “Yes,” still podcast because I think it’s a really good source of free advertising, and yeah. Then I said, “Yeah.” I had to actually listen to your podcasts. I was like, you know, “This guy’s legit, all right, done, boom.” But I never heard of you, didn’t know anything about Heyo. I didn’t know anything…like, “Yeah,” and I was like, “Yeah, done.”

Latka: What do you think about the…how would you describe the podcast to your audience?

Nathan: I think you’re very pushy on finding how much they make, and you’re very good at it. And it’s interesting, it’s really, really interesting.

Latka: Yeah, Nathan, I don’t sit as often. I think I’m probably the world’s most-sued podcaster. Sued, like, people, like, you know, writing me saying, “Take this episode down or I’m coming after you.” And you know what I do? I say, “You know what? I’m leaving…not only am I leaving it up, I will destroy you in court. I win everyone who tries…I win every time.” You know I did publish the episode…

Nathan: So you’ve had people try to sue you?

Latka: Oh my God, yes. Because what happened is they come on the show live, right, and when they schedule they sign a thing that says, “I have the right to do whatever I want with the audio content,” just like I did here on your podcast.” But when I get them live, I hit them with so many questions, they don’t even realize all the information they’re giving me. And, like, they share it with their board and their board goes, “Are you kidding? You told them your valuation? You told them are 2015 revenue? You told them our margins? Are you kidding? You told us their equity splits? You gotta get this episode down,” right?

And at that point, it’s all over, t has to go out. And, you know, Nathan I do this like half-jokingly but not really. I mean, honestly, there are too many fakers online so I get them on my show, it’s called “The Top Entrepreneurs.” It’s an orange logo on iTunes, you can find at “The Top Entrepreneurs, 15 minutes every day and I just…you know, Nathan, half these people have never met, right? And the first question on the episode is, “How much did you make last year and how did you do it?” And they’re like, “Who the hell is this guy? What’s going on?”

Nathan: Yeah, that’s what it felt like. For me, man, it was really…yeah, it was…

Latka: And we know each other.

Nathan: But you’re very good at that, dude. You’re very, very good. So I have to ask you, man, how much you sell your company for?

Latka: Oh, good question. Yeah, by the way, that always happens. I go, “Yeah, you have to be transparent, and the host and everyone goes, “This is a perfect time. I can get Nathan, I can catch him, ask him the sale price.” So you’re smart, Nathan. So here’s what I’ll tell you, I wanna give as much information as possible but I did sign something called an NDA, which basically means for a certain period after the deal I can’t say the exit price. Here’s what I can to tell you though, which would still be very, very educational, and if you’re smart, you can do the math and figure it out.

But we sold…the ways software the service company is valued is typically based off the a multiple of top-line revenue. So the multiple we got…so in other words, if we were making $1 million per month, you’d annualize it. So $12 million and then multiply that by a multiple, right? So 10x, 5x, 1x, 11x. The multiple we got…

Nathan: So making revenue or profit?

Latka: Revenue, top-line revenue.

Nathan: Yup.

Latka: Yeah, top-line revenue which is great by the way. Very other few but very few other businesses get back you know kind of valuation, usually, it’s an EBITDA, right, r cash flows.

Nathan: Right, that’s right.

Latka: So we got 11x annualized top-line revenue. That was our multiple.

Nathan: Wow. Man, that’s killer. I’m impressed, dude.

Latka: Yeah, it was great. It was a very good bidding process. It was an amazing offer. Okay, I make really great deals. I make good deals.

Nathan: Yeah, your sales biz dev guy, always getting the best deal. Awesome. So you said you started the podcast…I think you start the podcast before you sold the company, right?

Latka: I did. I also to just make a note too, VOTIGO got a great deal, right? The company that bought it and they’re growing it now, they’re killing. I mean, some other people because they now have an enterprise product plus our product and they’re very smart company, and they made a very very good offer and it made a lot of sense for them, and our customers are very happy. So they’ve got a great deal there.

Nathan: Yeah. Well, that’s awesome, man. Well, congratulations on all your success. So I’m really curious, you said that, you know, we’re talking about what’s up next and work towards wrapping up but you said that you know you had these conversations then you turn into a podcast and you’re trying to work out where the next place is. You’ve been doing the podcast for a while now, where you thinking? What’s interesting to you? Definitely another SaaS product? Curious, enterprise SaaS, probably, yeah?

Latka: Well, I’m probably not. I’m interested…look entrepreneurship in my opinions like the Fibonacci sequence. Look at a guy like Elon Musk, nobody realized that his first sale of his first company sold was a little agency for 1 million bucks, right? And then he launched a little bit venture firm, and that firm ended up buying PayPal, and Elon became involved in the management there. And the PayPal, obviously, sold and da da da da. You know, then he invested in Tesla, in a series A, that wasn’t his company.

Nathan: No, I didn’t know that.

Latka: Then he invested again…yeah, it wasn’t his company. Somebody else, the gentleman created Tesla. He invested in the series in a seed round and in that company got in trouble. So he invested with my friend Tim Draper, who I had on my shooter an episode 129, and they invested together in the series B, contingent upon Elon taking over, right? That’s now why Elon is CEO of Tesla.

Nathan: Wow, gotcha.

Latka: My point is everyone like just celebrities or whatever where Elon is now about realizing it’s like a Fibonacci sequence, you know, one, one, you know, three, five, eight, twelve, it compounds itself. So I am now looking…I feel like I’ve got my ones out. I need to find like a three, or five, or an eight. So I am hunting in the world, Nathan, of where atoms, like, physical objects and bits or software…computer bits collide, right? So that’s already happened in cars, right, with Uber, a physical asset plus an app and software. So one of the areas this is gonna blow your audience away, no one’s gonna expect this, but think about do you have storage facilities like, storage like self-storage in Australia?

Nathan: Yeah, of course. Yeah, it’s a massive. That’s a massive business model. That’s a good business model.

Latka: So it’s very good. Now let me just run you down this road, I’m doing some live testing here. So you’re renting from me, so you’re moving and you’re putting your bed, and your cabinet, and some extra furniture in my storage unit, you’re paying me 100 bucks per month, right? Something like that?

Nathan: Yeah.

Latka: Well, what happens to those physical assets, those atoms while you don’t need them in storage? What happens to them?

Nathan: They just hit there.

Letka: They sit there. Why would you not try and rent those out to other people and make money from that unleveraged physical asset, right? It doesn’t make sense. Why would you not do that?

Nathan: Yeah, it doesn’t make sense, yeah.

Latka: Right, well, the reason is because there’s never been operational efficiency built around well how would you rent out other people’s stuff in your storage unit? And that’s something I might get into. I might acquire a bunch of storage units, build an app or software where you could just go pay to lease somebody else’s stuff they have in my storage facility, right, for a very discounted price. That way I’m making money from the persons who I’m storing, and on renting out those physical assets. That’s what I mean by using bits and atoms, making them collide, and making the world more efficient.

Nathan: Gotcha. That’s a fascinating idea. I really like that. I’m curious though because there’s many people trying to disrupt this self-storage model. Like, you would have done ridiculous amounts of research, there’s no one currently doing anything like this, or a variant, or a hybrid version of it. Like, there must be all these kind of variants of this idea, right?

Latka: Well, that’s actually one of thing worried. Nobody is renting out other people’s stored items. Nobody’s doing it, which to me is a big negative. It means, something’s wrong there, right? Someone will be doing this if this was a good idea. My way, I’ve learned this very early on, it’s very unconventional, something I believe that very few people believe, you know, it’s very sexy to say you start a new idea and, “Oh, my god you inventing something,” but you know what? It’s way smarter and you’re gonna get way richer, way faster, if you look at something and go, “I love that and I wanna add this one other thing.”

What you do is you copy the hell out of thing that already exists, you copy it, like, you wouldn’t believe. You’d copy it so fast thus people are not gonna know what happened to them and then you add on your own unique twist. So I’m a big fan of copying what exists and adding your twist. So I would copy, Nathan, what the world’s most successful storage companies are doing and my twist would be building software that allowed me to efficiently rent out the things that people are putting in those storage units in the first place.

Nathan: Yeah, yeah, I got you. That’s why I asked if there’s a hybrid version or anything like that. Because yeah, you’re right, I agree for your 100%.

Latka: Yeah, nothing that I know of which is a red flag to me. So I’m still researching.

Nathan: Yeah, okay, gotcha.

Latka: I mean, there’s a lot of things by the way. Like, I may…a lot of people are going, “Nathan, you need to write a book. I’ve had publishers throw, like, a lot of money going…write a book. You need to write a book.” But I hate writing. So how am I gonna write a book? I hate writing. I like talking but I hate writing. So that would be challenging but, Nathan, if I did write it I’d go all out. I’d make it sell millions of copies. I’d want it to be at the top, right, no pun intent but I’d take it to the top.

Letka: Yeah, “New York Times,” you got to get that. everyone’s after these days, in New York Times.

Letka: And I would do it the real way though. I would not pay my way there. I would hustle, and I would win, and I would do it the real way. But I might do that, you know, I’m starting to think, you know, 2036 I wanna run for president, and I wanna win, and I’m gonna win big. So I’m trying to think about…I should get involved in politics.

Nathan: Wow.

Latka: There’s a hedge fund I’m thinking about…you know, I want to build the world’s largest hedge fund, which is very very doable with some different things I’m thinking about, which might involve taking public companies private, that have less than $10 million market cap because you can actually pull operational efficiency out of that business. In other words, they spend about $1 million per year just on admin to file paperwork required for public companies. So if you buy it take it private, and then kill out that admin expense, you’re basically generating profit.

Nathan: That’s crazy.

Latka: Yeah. So it’s a hedge fund play I might do. It doesn’t look…I’m doing a lot of stuff. I’m very excited but I’m just being patient right now to figure out what I want to attack next.

Nathan: Mmm, and last question, how do you work out what the right move is? Like, you’re just gonna try it or…? Because it sounds like you’re very strategic like calculated with this stuff, man?

Latka: Well, don’t give me too much credit, okay? I kind of just go with my gut and I gut is usually right. You know, some people call me “smart genius,” they give me too much credit, probably. But look, one of the things that I love doing is investing in things that I want, right? So, you know, if I wanted, you know, X, I’d figure out if it’s commercially viable for me to build that thing and I’d go for it. So, like, one of the things that I really want right now, Nathan, I hate paying rent. I hate signing a 12-month or 18-month lease. It makes me feel trapped.

So I wonder if I could maybe buy up a few hostel chains around the world and allow people to pay $1,000 per month membership and they can then stay at any hostile world, travel whenever and wherever they want, right? That model to me is something that I would want, so can I build that? And so that, you know, things that I want…those are helping guide my kind of decision and peripheral vision on what I should tackle.

Nathan: Gotcha. Awesome. All right, dude, well, look, we gotta wrap it there because I’m super mindful of your time but, man, where’s the best place people can find you if they wanna know more?

Latka: Well, I would tell you, I give out my phone number, and I give out a lot of revenue numbers, my tax income, all this kind of stuff on my show. In fact, if they want to listen to the actual recordings of me selling Heyo, I recorded the whole thing the negotiations with the buyers I’m learning everything on my podcast. It has an orange logo. I have like a Jonas Brother headshot thing, it’s, you know, interesting looking but it’s called “The Top Entrepreneurs on iTunes or they can find those specific episodes I just referenced at athanlatka.com/sold or lastly Nathan, and if they wanna text me directly. And to thank them, I will give them my 2012 tax return so they can actually see how is making money back then. They can text “Nathan” to 33 444.

Nathan: Yeah. Boom, love it.

Latka: I love that.

Nathan: Also, Man…man, I love it. So, dude, thank you so much for your time, and then we’ll wrap there.

Latka: Well, Nathan, you have an amazing audience. I’m very thankful you took the time to have me on, you know, there’s a lot of bad hosts out there. You’re unbelievable. You made me feel a little uncomfortable which is great. So thanks for having me on.

Nathan: Oh, absolutely, pleasure. Well, man, thank you for doing what you do.