In addition, Brenner, the witness who the DPD and WC used to ID the sniper in the window as Oswald, saw Oswald on TV a few hours later, and said that Oswald was five years younger than the man in the window. When he saw him in a lineup, said that Oswald looked like the sniper in the window, EXCEPT he had on a different, lighter colored shirt, while Oswald had on the shirt he wore to work and was arrested in. Their own chief witness exonerates their primary suspect.

2) One witness who saw a gunman in the 6th floor window with a rifle also said that when taking aim, he could see that he had a bald spot on the top of his head, which is like an identifying tatoo, and an attribute that Oswald lacked that the real gunman had.

3) At least one witness saw a man in the windows of the 6th floor with a rifle at 12:15 pm, when Oswald was seen on the first floor.

4) DPD officer Baker, within two minutes of the assassination, saw Oswald through the door window in the vestible of the 2nd floor lunchroom, which, as Howard Roffman points out and is quite clear at the end of the Secret Service filmed reenactment, that to see someone in that window they had to enter the vestibule from the other door, which leads to the first floor, exactly where Oswald said he was and where he was seen at 12:15. Which means he didn't come down the steps as the Warren Commission contends.

5) The Secret Service didn't bother continuing their reconstruction of the alleged assassin's movements after the encounter between Oswald and Baker in the lunchroom, but if they had it would also be quite clear that he couldn't have been in all the locations that are attributed to him.

There are a number of "legs" in the trip - from the front steps of the TSBD, six blocks down the street heading east, getting on a bus heading west, getting off the bus and into a taxi three to five blocks past his rooming house and walking back, entering his rooming house, changing his slacks and grabbing a gun and a jacket and last seen standing at a bus stop going back into the city.

From there you end up at 10th and Patton, blocks away. How come NOBODY saw him walking this distance? No one sitting on their porch, noone driving by, no one walking near him? Some even contend that he had somehow gone past 10th and Patton and was walking back in that direction, which means he most certainly got a ride from someone.

Then there's Tippit stopping the pedestrian (Oswald?), the shooting of the policeman, and the running across the lawn, dropping shells and reloading - where'd he get the bullets? Through the ally and onto Jefferson, past the used car lot, into the Texaco lot, ditching the jacket under the car, and reports of the suspect entering a church and furniture store nearby. Then the suspect is seen at the shoe store, where the shoe salesman recognized him from having sold a pair of shoes to him a few weeks before, and his furtive movements arrouse suspicion enough that he leaves the store with two IBM embloyees there, and follows the suspect to the theater where he is seen entering without a ticket.

The candy counter guy said he thought Oswald had entered the theater earlier, but when the cops arrive, the shoe salesman points out Oswald, and there's a scuffle and a Oswald's gun misfires.

So now we have the accused assassin of the President, who also wounded Governor Connally and James Tague, killing a cop at 10th and Patton and attempting to kill another cop in the theater, which makes him a Spree Killer as well as an assassin, having assaulted people at three different locations.

Except there has never been a situation before or since where a Spree Killer has done this. And we are to accept that he did these things because he was a nut case, suddenly sparked to kill because his wife wouldn't move back with him?

If it sounds crazy, and unlikely, and never happened before or since, it probably didn't happen that way.

If you want to review the case of a real Spree Killer see Howard Unruh, Camden, N.J., 1949.

2) One witness who saw a gunman in the 6th floor window with a rifle also said that when taking aim, he could see that he had a bald spot on the top of his head, which is like an identifying tatoo, and an attribute that Oswald lacked that the real gunman had.

3) At least one witness saw a man in the windows of the 6th floor with a rifle at 12:15 pm, when Oswald was seen on the first floor.

4) DPD officer Baker, within two minutes of the assassination, saw Oswald through the door window in the vestible of the 2nd floor lunchroom, which, as Howard Roffman points out and is quite clear at the end of the Secret Service filmed reenactment, that to see someone in that window they had to enter the vestibule from the other door, which leads to the first floor, exactly where Oswald said he was and where he was seen at 12:15. Which means he didn't come down the steps as the Warren Commission contends.

5) The Secret Service didn't bother continuing their reconstruction of the alleged assassin's movements after the encounter between Oswald and Baker in the lunchroom, but if they had it would also be quite clear that he couldn't have been in all the locations that are attributed to him.

There are a number of "legs" in the trip - from the front steps of the TSBD, six blocks down the street heading east, getting on a bus heading west, getting off the bus and into a taxi three to five blocks past his rooming house and walking back, entering his rooming house, changing his slacks and grabbing a gun and a jacket and last seen standing at a bus stop going back into the city.

From there you end up at 10th and Patton, blocks away. How come NOBODY saw him walking this distance? No one sitting on their porch, noone driving by, no one walking near him? Some even contend that he had somehow gone past 10th and Patton and was walking back in that direction, which means he most certainly got a ride from someone.

Then there's Tippit stopping the pedestrian (Oswald?), the shooting of the policeman, and the running across the lawn, dropping shells and reloading - where'd he get the bullets? Through the ally and onto Jefferson, past the used car lot, into the Texaco lot, ditching the jacket under the car, and reports of the suspect entering a church and furniture store nearby. Then the suspect is seen at the shoe store, where the shoe salesman recognized him from having sold a pair of shoes to him a few weeks before, and his furtive movements arrouse suspicion enough that he leaves the store with two IBM embloyees there, and follows the suspect to the theater where he is seen entering without a ticket.

The candy counter guy said he thought Oswald had entered the theater earlier, but when the cops arrive, the shoe salesman points out Oswald, and there's a scuffle and a Oswald's gun misfires.

So now we have the accused assassin of the President, who also wounded Governor Connally and James Tague, killing a cop at 10th and Patton and attempting to kill another cop in the theater, which makes him a Spree Killer as well as an assassin, having assaulted people at three different locations.

Except there has never been a situation before or since where a Spree Killer has done this. And we are to accept that he did these things because he was a nut case, suddenly sparked to kill because his wife wouldn't move back with him?

If it sounds crazy, and unlikely, and never happened before or since, it probably didn't happen that way.

If you want to review the case of a real Spree Killer see Howard Unruh, Camden, N.J., 1949.

Now we have to figure out how it really happened.

Oswald wasn't the Sixth Floor sniper and probably didn't kill Tippit.

BK

Os was evidently expecting to followed back to the area of his rooming house by somebody. IMO that's why he had the cab driver go past the rooming house and drop him off several blocks up Beckley. This gave him the opportunity to scope the rooming house as they drove by, and then approach it with caution on foot from a safe distance. Had that Police car (that honked twice) come by and parked and in front of the house as he was approaching... and he saw it, who knows what he would have done ,or how differently things might have turned out !?

2) One witness who saw a gunman in the 6th floor window with a rifle also said that when taking aim, he could see that he had a bald spot on the top of his head, which is like an identifying tatoo, and an attribute that Oswald lacked that the real gunman had.

3) At least one witness saw a man in the windows of the 6th floor with a rifle at 12:15 pm, when Oswald was seen on the first floor.

4) DPD officer Baker, within two minutes of the assassination, saw Oswald through the door window in the vestible of the 2nd floor lunchroom, which, as Howard Roffman points out and is quite clear at the end of the Secret Service filmed reenactment, that to see someone in that window they had to enter the vestibule from the other door, which leads to the first floor, exactly where Oswald said he was and where he was seen at 12:15. Which means he didn't come down the steps as the Warren Commission contends.

5) The Secret Service didn't bother continuing their reconstruction of the alleged assassin's movements after the encounter between Oswald and Baker in the lunchroom, but if they had it would also be quite clear that he couldn't have been in all the locations that are attributed to him.

There are a number of "legs" in the trip - from the front steps of the TSBD, six blocks down the street heading east, getting on a bus heading west, getting off the bus and into a taxi three to five blocks past his rooming house and walking back, entering his rooming house, changing his slacks and grabbing a gun and a jacket and last seen standing at a bus stop going back into the city.

From there you end up at 10th and Patton, blocks away. How come NOBODY saw him walking this distance? No one sitting on their porch, noone driving by, no one walking near him? Some even contend that he had somehow gone past 10th and Patton and was walking back in that direction, which means he most certainly got a ride from someone.

Then there's Tippit stopping the pedestrian (Oswald?), the shooting of the policeman, and the running across the lawn, dropping shells and reloading - where'd he get the bullets? Through the ally and onto Jefferson, past the used car lot, into the Texaco lot, ditching the jacket under the car, and reports of the suspect entering a church and furniture store nearby. Then the suspect is seen at the shoe store, where the shoe salesman recognized him from having sold a pair of shoes to him a few weeks before, and his furtive movements arrouse suspicion enough that he leaves the store with two IBM embloyees there, and follows the suspect to the theater where he is seen entering without a ticket.

The candy counter guy said he thought Oswald had entered the theater earlier, but when the cops arrive, the shoe salesman points out Oswald, and there's a scuffle and a Oswald's gun misfires.

So now we have the accused assassin of the President, who also wounded Governor Connally and James Tague, killing a cop at 10th and Patton and attempting to kill another cop in the theater, which makes him a Spree Killer as well as an assassin, having assaulted people at three different locations.

Except there has never been a situation before or since where a Spree Killer has done this. And we are to accept that he did these things because he was a nut case, suddenly sparked to kill because his wife wouldn't move back with him?

If it sounds crazy, and unlikely, and never happened before or since, it probably didn't happen that way.

If you want to review the case of a real Spree Killer see Howard Unruh, Camden, N.J., 1949.

Now we have to figure out how it really happened.

Oswald wasn't the Sixth Floor sniper and probably didn't kill Tippit.

BK

Os was evidently expecting to followed back to the area of his rooming house by somebody. IMO that's why he had the cab driver go past the rooming house and drop him off several blocks up Beckley. This gave him the opportunity to scope the rooming house as they drove by, and then approach it with caution on foot from a safe distance. Had that Police car (that honked twice) come by and parked and in front of the house as he was approaching... and he saw it, who knows what he would have done ,or how differently things might have turned out !?

-Bill O

Also,At this point in time nobody supposedly knew that location of his living quarters. So why all the caution and doubling back? Who was he fearfull of, so soon after leaving the SBD?

Assume for the purpose of this post, that Oswald (no matter what role, if any, he had in the assassination) was going to be set up as patsy - the lone gunman.

The Tippit murder is a crucial part of the conspiracy, because Oswald needs to be arrested (or murdered) as soon as possible after the assassination for the conspiracy to be successful - and Oswald leaves Dealey Plaza for... Oak Cliff! (It is my opinion that an assassin would try to flee the scene of the crime, then the locale of Dallas with some kind of haste... trains, planes and automobiles come to mind, but Oswald goes to Oak Cliff - where he currently lives!)

Now, by all accounts, the description of the Sixth Floor sniper was too vague, and didn't name Oswald specifically, to be of any use as an APB. Hundreds of individuals matched that description. Oak Cliff isn't the first place one thinks of when looking for suspects to an assassination downtown. Folks who live in Dallas will back me up on that. So Oswald walking around Oak Cliff, no matter how "squirrely" shouldn't draw any particular attention, because he is just one of hundreds of twenty-something, skinny white guys walking around the streets of Dallas. I bet there was a skinny white guy walking around Uptown at a brisk pace at the same time as well.

Okay, so Oswald goes to Oak Cliff. Oswald needs to be put in custody or better yet murdered at the scene, trying to escape. The APB isn't going to cut it. No Oak Cliff citizens are running around yelling, "hey that squirrely looking white dude looks like the guy who they say shot the president!", are they? Something else has to happen for the police to come to Oak Cliff and get Oswald.

So Tippit is murdered.

Police then arrive in numbers and apprehend Oswald in the Texas theater. I've read different accounts of the arrest, that they wanted Oswald to flee through the rear exits so that he could die in a fusillade, that Oswald was screaming "I am not resisting arrest", etc. (I've read in Hoover's notes that he had an FBI man there at the arrest - why I do not know, since the arrest was for the shooting of a cop, not the President.) but Oswald is finally in custody, but for the shooting of a police officer, not the president.

Regardless. Without the Tippit shooting, Oswald walks around Oak Cliff and the police most likely never find the assassin (because remember the rifle was ordered under the Hidell alias - and no one knows Hidell is Oswald other than Oswald).

My point of all of this being, if Oswald really was the Sixth Floor sniper, and had the smarts to beat this country's finest security and intelligence apparatus all by himself with no help from anyone else, why did he not have the intelligence to simply vanish the scene and Dallas proper after the crime?

Now if Tippit did play some role in the conspiracy, say, his role was to round up Oswald and take him to a predetermined location, or eliminate him based on a confrontation after recognizing Oswald from the APB, then the police wouldn't have had to come to Oak Cliff with their guns a'blazin, and Oswald would be "delivered" - one way or another. But obviously that didn't happen, and an event of great magnitude had to happen for the police to come to Oak Cliff and apprehend Oswald. Tippit's shooting is what did it.

Also,At this point in time nobody supposedly knew that location of his living quarters. So why all the caution and doubling back? Who was he fearfull of, so soon after leaving the SBD?

-Bill O

Hosty had the phone number of the rooming house. Oswald knew it.

All Hosty had to do was to call the phone company with the number and he could have gotten the address.

Driving by it would have allowed him, as the previous poster said, to "scope it out" as they say in today's jargon. It also would have given him the appearance that he was coming from the opposite direction of Dealey Plaza as he approached the house. Walking on foot also gave him the option of avoiding capture by fleeing on foot through yards and over fences. Driving past the house and being dropped off 5 blocks away made the fare seem like the destination was not 1026 North Beckley.

"Hosty had the phone number of the rooming house. Oswald knew it. All Hosty had to do was to call the phone company with the number and he could have gotten the address."

Gil, I though Oswald had Hosty's number, not the other way around, but otherwise, true. However not even Hosty would have put 2 and 2 together at this point yet, since Oswald was viewed as a non-threat by the FBI (and viewed as a commie as Hosty explains it). However, OSWALD might have been thinking that Hosty had put 2 and 2 together, and was thus being "cautious".

P.S. I'm not sure Oswald had a phone in his room, so Hosty could have simply called the number itself and asked Gladys Johnson for the address.

I don't think the definitive version of events inside the TSBD is all that far off being nailed down by some savvy types.

But everything after that is also open to serious question, including Oswald on McCwatters' bus.

I think something like this happened:

The DPD was informed about the individual who laughed on the bus about the assassination. They assumed this was the assassin. Wade would later even tell the media Oswald had laughed on the bus.

When Oswald was captured, he denied being on the bus. At some point, the DPD realized it's error, but having said he was on the bus, they were not about to let the facts get in the way. They then "find" the transfer and claim Oswald later admitted he'd lied and had been on the bus.

From a commission letter to the FBI re McWatters..."...changed his story to the effect that he was mistaken when he identified Oswald as the individual who rode on his bus on 11/22/63. McWatters stated that the person who was the subject of his testimony was a young teenager named Milton Jones..."http://www.maryferre...bsPageId=745369

In the final report, the Commission admits McWatters cannot be used to put Oswald on the bus - Lucky then Mary Bledsoe happened to be on it...allegedly

If Oswald is innocent of murdering President Kennedy, I wonder why he smuggled his rifle into work that day. I'd be interested to hear a reasonable explanation for that behaviour. Or is it a mere (and extremely unfortunate) coincidence? Or were they really curtain rods?

If Oswald is innocent of murdering President Kennedy, I wonder why he smuggled his rifle into work that day. I'd be interested to hear a reasonable explanation for that behaviour. Or is it a mere (and extremely unfortunate) coincidence? Or were they really curtain rods?

If Oswald is innocent of murdering President Kennedy, I wonder why he smuggled his rifle into work that day. I'd be interested to hear a reasonable explanation for that behaviour. Or is it a mere (and extremely unfortunate) coincidence? Or were they really curtain rods?

Paul, Both frazier and his Sister, the only eyewitnesses who claimed Oswald took anything into the TSBD that day, claimed under testimony, several times, that the paper sack shown to them by the W/C was much longer than the one Oswald had placed in the car that day. this was the sack that was apparantly found at the crime scene, and therefore had to be the one in which LHO transported the weapon. Cherry picking evdence does no favours to either side.

Interests:Universally loved and admired for his keen wit, sharp intellect, loathsome egoism, and awe-inspiring self-delusion, Lane studies the JFK assassination from afar, offers few opinions, and generally keeps to himself.

Posted 04 December 2008 - 04:26 PM

If Oswald is innocent of murdering President Kennedy, I wonder why he smuggled his rifle into work that day. I'd be interested to hear a reasonable explanation for that behaviour. Or is it a mere (and extremely unfortunate) coincidence? Or were they really curtain rods?

What is the evidence of this "smuggling his rifle into work that day?" The guy who drove him in from Irving, Buell Wesley Frazier, described a package that resembled that which curtain rods were typically wrapped in (based on his experience working at a hardware store), which was only about two feet long and which Oswald carried cupped in his hand and under his armpit; this does not describe the rifle, even disassembled, nor the bag purportedly found on the sixth floor.

Frazier's sister, Linnie Mae Randle, described the package she'd seen from a farther distance than her brother did, and estimated its length at about the same as he did. Both said that the bag they were shown was not the one that they'd seen on November 22.

The only person who saw Oswald enter the TSBD that morning, Jack Dougherty, said that Oswald had nothing in his hands that he, Dougherty, could see ... but if Oswald did have a package in his hands, then it only lends credence to Frazier's description of the package being under Oswald's armpit, completely hidden from view. Nobody else claimed to have seen Oswald enter the building, or to have seen any unusual package in the building.

And, of course, police said that Oswald himself denied having brought any package to work that day, containing curtain rods or otherwise.

The only "evidence" that he did bring a gun to work is the fact that a gun was found in the building, so he "must" have brought it, and since he "must" have brought it, then he also "must" have lied about bringing it. QED, right?

If Oswald is innocent of murdering President Kennedy, I wonder why he smuggled his rifle into work that day. I'd be interested to hear a reasonable explanation for that behaviour. Or is it a mere (and extremely unfortunate) coincidence? Or were they really curtain rods?

Dear Paul Baker,

Are you just nuts, or ignorant or do you have another agenda?

Where did you get the information that LHO smuggled a Mannlicher Carcano into work that day?

Try to rest a disassembled Carcano on the palm of your hand and have the other end under your armpit!

Doesn't the weight of evidence strongly suggest that LHO took his rifle into work that morning, irrespective of whether he used it to shoot the President?

Someone will no doubt tell me, or speculate, that some (or dare I say all) of these points are incorrect.

1. Lee kept a rifle in the Paines garage.
2. Lee visited his wife at the Paines the previous evening, conflicting with his usual routine.
3. Lee never mentioned curtain rods to anyone but his ride into work the following morning.
4. Lee's rifle was discovered in the TSBD after the shooting.
5. Lee's rifle was missing from its usual location in the Paines garage after the shooting.
6. The discarded packaging was found in the TSBD.
7. The curtain rods were never found anywhere.
8. Lee didn't need curtain rods at his rented room in Oak Cliff.
9. Lee denied taking a package into the TSBD (conflicting with witness testimony).

... That's all I can think of at the moment.

I'd say that was pretty convincing support for "Lee Harvy Oswald took his rifle into the TSBD on the morning of 22 November 1963".

Where did you get the information that LHO smuggled a Mannlicher Carcano into work that day?

Try to rest a disassembled Carcano on the palm of your hand and have the other end under your armpit!

Wim

Has anyone ever tried to wedge a disassembled Carcano rifle between hand and armpit? I've seen a picture of it (along with the packaging, which is the same size and shape as the disassembled gun - there's another suggestive piece of evidence). It doesn't look prohibitively long. Anyone know how long it is?