For the last few days my WH is frequently insisting I kiss him and hug him. And he's constantly asking, "are you okay?" "everything okay?" "everything alright?" "are you all right?" If he asks me one more time my head is going to explode.

I can barely stand to be in the same room with him. H has been coughing for three weeks so I've been using that as my excuse for staying clear of him. Now, it's: "come on give me a kiss, you can kiss me on the cheek" or "give me a hug' and when I barely make physical contact he says, "put your arms around me". I comply (barely), then I get "come on now, give me a big squeeze." I am NOT squeezing him. I am NOT feeling the love. When he does this in front of my son I play along to maintain the fašade. WTF is wrong with this man?

Is he:
A) totally clueless
B) totally insensitive
C) so self-absorbed he can't see the hurt I'm feeling
D) only cares about me affirming my undying love for him no matter what

I don't even know yet the extent of his betrayal, so I am light years away from knowing what my reaction will be when everything is laid bare. For now, I'm so detached is scaring me.

Today he had the day off work. I couldn't bear the thought of the two of us in the house all day, so I feigned the need to go holiday shopping (NOT - I can't even bear the thought of Christmas) - I actually went to the library and read a book called Living with the Passive-Aggressive Man. When I got home he was on his way out to a meeting, and he insisted on a hug before he left. I very gently told him that it makes me uncomfortable when he does this. He didn't wait for me to explain WHY I'm uncomfortable, he just flashed me his angry eyes and said, "Fine, I was just trying to be NICE!" before angrily heading out the door. OMG - that behavior is right off a page of the book I read today. He's the victim of my cruelty!?!?!

Again, I ask, WTF is he doing???

P.S. He did admit the other day that his porn addiction fits nicely into a compartment in his brain that does NOT interfere with the rest of his life. Lucky him. My brain doesn't compartmentalize anything. It's all a jumbled mess.

Me: BS, 56
Him: WH, 51, possible SA.
3 kids, 19, 17, 15
M 21 yrs.

Posts: 59 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Midwest

headdesk♀ 40787Member # 40787

Posted: 4:59 PM, December 12th (Thursday), 2013

I've found that men are generally not as apt to pick up on the secondary conversations women have with each other. You know - there's the part you speak, but then there is the tone, the veiled suggestions, the pointed avoidance of certain topics...that stuff. Women take that functioning for granted, because that's how we roll.

It doesn't work for men generally. They get the word part. So part of my journey with WH has been to learn to just cut to the chase.

Mine is clingy as hell right now too and I agree - it's annoying. My path has been to speak what I want instead of cramming resentment down and to put up firm boundaries. If I don't feel like being touched now, I'll tell him so. If he keeps trying, I confront him (not in a yelling way, just speaking plainly). If he acts huffy, I call him on that shit too. I'm at the place where I'm not tolerating old behaviour for either of us. I call myself on stuff out loud as well as him.

This is because he and I were in a relationship origionally where we both needed to fill that hole inside of us. We both struggled to get it from each other. Then I looked at my life, said fuck this shit, and started to renovate. Between therapy and a whole bunch of stuff, I've really changed in the last few years. I learned to self validate.

My WH did not.

Now we were in an unequal relationship where I didn't have that codependent need to be filled. After struggling with that, he went and tried to have it filled somewhere else.

Part of what I'm expecting as a term of us staying together is that he grow and learn. It doesn't have to happen overnight but it has to be constant. I'm cutting the ties I had in always reassuring him and easing his emotions. Nope. He is a grown man, he gets to deal with it.

So, depending on where you are with this, plan an intervention. Lay it all out on the line. Then it is up to him if he chooses to stay in your boundaries or if he places his needs/wants above yours. If he's doing the latter...not good.

Oh how do I know how you feel!!! My WS has been that way for months! He constantly asks if I love him and makes comments like "C'mon you're not close to me" and he will pull me close to him.

The other day he hugged me and I was feeling all wiggy about things so I gave him a half hug. He said, "Hug me like you love me!" and I lost it. I pushed him away and went on a tangent about how selfish he is expecting me to give him reassurance and act loving towards him. I asked if he would feel very loving towards me if he were in my shoes? He got quiet and replied no.

I don't get it. I guess they feel if they are all affectionate and crap you will just forget everything.

Me BS 31
Him WS 34 Trying4change
Together 3 years, married for one
D-day: 07/23/13 cybersex with COW
D-day: 12/27/13 found out he met and kissed a "friend" in 2011
"A clear and innocent conscience fears nothing."

Posts: 935 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Oklahoma

cl131716♀ 40699Member # 40699

Posted: 5:22 PM, December 12th (Thursday), 2013

This is because he and I were in a relationship origionally where we both needed to fill that hole inside of us. We both struggled to get it from each other. Then I looked at my life, said fuck this shit, and started to renovate. Between therapy and a whole bunch of stuff, I've really changed in the last few years. I learned to self validate.

My WH did not

This is my marriage, word for word, although it has only been a couple of months since I started to detach. I'm still struggling slightly but I'm doing much better than WS.

Me BS 31
Him WS 34 Trying4change
Together 3 years, married for one
D-day: 07/23/13 cybersex with COW
D-day: 12/27/13 found out he met and kissed a "friend" in 2011
"A clear and innocent conscience fears nothing."

Posts: 935 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Oklahoma

scaredyKat♀ 25560Member # 25560

Posted: 10:35 PM, December 12th (Thursday), 2013

I just read your other post where he knows that you are aware of the porn addiction. I have a couple of thoughts to toss your way. First of all, I think your shrink has a point about you not looking for more evidence. If it's an addiction, compulsion, etc., it's pretty much a given that he won't be able to stop forever without support. He can white knuckle for awhile, but very hard to stop completely. And then there is that whole other set of SA sub behaviors, scanning, etc., that will!l need to be stopped with help from a CSAT. The existence of the nasty stuff suggests this is pretty far along.

But you do not need to retraumatize yourself be looking for it again. You don't need to be his accountability partner.

As for the love-bombing, part of it may be guilt and shame, a HUGE piece if the SA's persona. He has been caught, the naughty boy, do you still love him? It's been suggested that SAs are arrested in their emotional development at a stage before the addiction began. It is, after all, an intimacy disorder, one were the addict in incapable of forming real relationships. So he's reaching out to you physically, trying to substitute that for intimacy, trying to appease you with hugs instead of dealing with the elephant, or jam, in the room.

Please insist that he see the CSAT, or at least someone worming toward their certification in that. Spinning wheels with a regular IC.

I kind of get what your feeling. When your detaching, their touch is almost annoying. My ws does this with my time. During the heat of the A, before I knew, I learned to live life without him. He never wanted to go with me, so.I went without him. I started liking my alone time. When he's home on the weekends, I feel like I'm gritting my teeth around him. He's so far up my a$$, I can't stand it. He wants me to sit and watch a movie or constantly asking what I'm doing. He broke us. I'm over it, I think but its all I can do not to knee him in the nuts when he kisses me good bye. I feel like he's so needy and its too late. When I needed him, he wasn't interested.
Maybe you should just tell him you need some physical space before you burst one day and scream, get the F*** away from me. You sound like your feeling trapped by his affection.

BS..me
WS..him
Been with him over half my life
4kid
DD1 10-01-09 DD2 02-12-12 discovered it never ended
OW..nothing special. Just your average skank
Status..#$%@????

Posts: 5347 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: midwest

SummerStorm21♀ 41320Member # 41320

Posted: 3:34 AM, December 13th (Friday), 2013

Just reading about your situation makes me cringe!

If there is one thing I have learned it's that a user will keep using you until he is forced to stop. After DDay I wouldn't let WS come home until he agreed to stop drinking and get help for depression. Both pretty damn productive requests. He feels like a new man.

In return how did he "care" for me? By ignoring my pain and bringing me - pretty much a non-drinker - bottle after bottle of wine night after night so he could get laid. End result? Pregnancy. And first thing he says is he's THRILLED!

When they don't get it, they don't get it.

The other day he went for a peck on the cheek and I about blew a (silent) gasket. I actually tried to duck. Texted him later telling him that anything physical is off the able until he sorts himself out emotionally.

Otherwise I get hurt. And they just don't care about that.

Protect yourself. He won't.

Hugs.

BW

Posts: 112 | Registered: Nov 2013

refuz2bavictim♀ 27176Member # 27176

Posted: 3:43 AM, December 13th (Friday), 2013

his porn addiction fits nicely into a compartment in his brain that does NOT interfere with the rest of his life.

Yikes!
So he believes, but the proof is in the pudding, as it's oozing out into the real world and interfering with his ability to be in a M with you.

I think ScaredyKat has given you advice and information you need. A regular IC may not fully understand the nuances and sub behaviors well enough, to know what issues to treat.

As for him insisting on physical affection, without regard to the emotional component, I see this as manipulation.

Whether it's conscious or not, who knows. The fact that he becomes angry when you don't accept his gifts or gestures, show that his motives are about soothing himself not you. When you don't respond the way he "needs/wants" you to, he becomes angry...rejected. This sounds cyclical. And I'll be if you really look back you will see a form of this cycle has been playing out in other ways.
A cycle HE sets into motion, and plays out with the same predictable results, every time. Without knowing it, you have probably been participating in this time and time again.

This stuff is tricky. Addictions and their cycles are amoebic and the behaviors tend to shift around from place to place, making it tricky to pin them down and completely eradicate them. Knowing how to recognize the cycle when it manifests in a new way is difficult.

Please insist that he see the CSAT, or at least someone working toward their certification in that.

x1000

And don't forget you in this equation. Take care of you, so that you can set yourself free.

BS:ME DDay: 7/18/09 Last of TT 7/11/10
MOW's EA/PA all were my "friends" but one

Posts: 2372 | Registered: Jan 2010

sideblinded♀ 41475Member # 41475

Posted: 9:47 AM, December 13th (Friday), 2013

Thank you all for your thoughtful replies. I'm thinking most of this behavior is driven by guilt. But who knows? It's not like he's going to share his innermost thoughts with me.

Refuz - the cycle you describe is very much in play in our marriage. Has been for a long time. One of my husband's favorite games to play is "guess what I'm thinking now?" I'm done playing. If he wants to tell me what he's thinking, fine, but I'm not going to press. I think I need to start hanging out in the Living with a PA spouse thread...

SK - I don't know if his IC is going to do any good. I think the person he is scheduled to see next week is someone who treats general addiction. H isn't forthcoming on the name or expertise of this person. Trying to get information out of him is like pulling teeth. I hear what you are saying about needing a CSAT - anything else will be a waste of time. The nearest CSAT is a three-hour drive from us. Not going to happen. Right now, I'm feeling terribly pessimistic about this whole enterprise. But I'm going to insist he not waste time in a general IC relationship - get a CSAT or don't bother.

About the addiction - he told me the other day he was going to try to quit cold turkey. Yeah, and I'm going to fly to the moon...

One piece of good news this morning - all my STD tests came back negative. I was bracing for the worst, so this was welcome news.

Me: BS, 56
Him: WH, 51, possible SA.
3 kids, 19, 17, 15
M 21 yrs.

Posts: 59 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Midwest

scaredyKat♀ 25560Member # 25560

Posted: 10:25 AM, December 13th (Friday), 2013

Is there a 12step program for him nearby? Often the participants there will know of ICs who are effective with SA. And I made 12 steps a condition of staying married. THAT is a stretch for the typical arrogant SA. The "I'm not as f-ed up as that guy attitude" usually prevails. Sadly, it's true that they too often have to hit that rock bottom before they are motivated to change.

I think it old patterns. He needs validation. He needs assurance. He is afraid, you may not love him. He is afraid your distance, means no love is possible. In other words, tell me we are ok. Show me we are ok. Help me believe I didnt really destroy this. Anxiety. I live this too. Its still all for him. H wants MY affection toward him. hold me. kiss me. tell me you love me. are his words. In the meantime, he tells me none. And pretends its better. and all behind us.

a trigger yesterday

Posts: 1310 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: athome

Nature_Girl♀ 32554Member # 32554

Posted: 12:15 PM, December 13th (Friday), 2013

This isn't lovebombing. This is addictive behavior. He is using you.

He's trying to whiteknuckle his addiction until you cave. Good luck with that.

I think you need to put a stop to what he's doing. It's incredibly violating. He has no right to paw you & put his hands all over you. It's disrespectful. He doesn't care about you as a human being or a woman. This is all about him and his dick.

Have you read "Out of the Shadows" by Carnes? My IC had me read it when I first started going to her. It opened my eyes and prepared me for what turned out to be an express rocket straight to hell. I urge you to stop focusing your attention on him and start focusing on yourself. Why are you tolerating this behavior from him? What's going on in your head that tells you to keep letting him use you like this? Why are you minimizing and rose-coloring what he's doing by calling it "lovebombing"?

Another book you should read is "Boundaries in Marriage" by Cloud & Townsend.

I can't figure out how to use the quote feature here - if someone can tell me the steps to use....

SK: "SAs are arrested in their emotional development at a stage before the addiction began.." Yes. Of this I am certain.

NatureGirl - I'm not rose-coloring anything. Maybe I shouldn't have called it lovebombing. I am so detached from him right now there's no way he's using me for anything. No I haven't read the books you mentioned. I'm only now just emerging from the numbness of the JFO stage (3 weeks ago) and been busy with a L, PI, and getting STD tested. I'll put your books on my to-do list.

Me: BS, 56
Him: WH, 51, possible SA.
3 kids, 19, 17, 15
M 21 yrs.

Posts: 59 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Midwest

Nature_Girl♀ 32554Member # 32554

Posted: 12:53 PM, December 13th (Friday), 2013

Understood. I know it's really hard when you're trying to fight through the numbness of JFO and figuring out what's happening.

I just want to assure you that you have the right to dominion over your own body. He does not have the right to insist that you hug him or touch him in any way. He does not have the right to insist that you emotionally reassure him. The things he's doing to you my ex also did to me. Everything was always about him.

Your husband is an adult. He needs to find a healthy way to soothe himself, to reassure himself. A way that does not involve using another human being for external validation. It will be hard for you, but you need to let him crash & burn. He'll never understand what's happening otherwise (and maybe not even then).

My SAH luved his porn and was convinced it did not interfere with the M. That was 2 yrs ago.
He, right now, at this moment, is leading a SAA telecall. I see a very different man now than when he was up to his eyeballs in porn.
A CSAT is the way to go. My SAH, now that the acting out is long gone, is beginning to be able to dig deep and address his emotionally stunted self. It is hard to address the other broken stuff unless the acting out is stopped.
hugs and peace to you! ccg

Even without any sort of cheating, your best bet would be to confront these behaviors and, basically, demand to be treated as an autonomous adult human being. I don't think he'll stop if you keep giving in, especially if you don't confront him. Again, whether or not he's been in an EA, PA, or just a sick relationship with someone else, this behavior is objectionable.

T/J -

I've found that men are generally not as apt to pick up on the secondary conversations women have with each other. You know - there's the part you speak, but then there is the tone, the veiled suggestions, the pointed avoidance of certain topics...that stuff. Women take that functioning for granted, because that's how we roll.

What's your basis for these generalizations? I've spent a lifetime studying history and doing business. I've also been exposed to numerous studies on non-verbal adult communication. It's pretty clear to me that most people have a good understanding of unspoken 'language'.

fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 70 (22 in my head), Married 45+, together since 1965, same sex ap
DDay - 12/22/2010
Recover'd and R'ed
I'm not an exemplar. I share my own experience because it's all I know.

Posts: 11130 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area

refuz2bavictim♀ 27176Member # 27176

Posted: 2:58 PM, December 13th (Friday), 2013

He does not have the right to insist that you hug him or touch him in any way. He does not have the right to insist that you emotionally reassure him.

The fact that he does this in front of your child really chaps my ass. His attempts to manipulate you by using your child as a tool turns my stomach.

all my STD tests came back negative.

This is good news.

You have so much on your plate right now, and you have really managed this exceptionally well. Your willingness to see what is happening in front of you, will serve you well.

BS:ME DDay: 7/18/09 Last of TT 7/11/10
MOW's EA/PA all were my "friends" but one

"come on give me a kiss, you can kiss me on the cheek" or "give me a hug' and when I barely make physical contact he says, "put your arms around me". I comply (barely), then I get "come on now, give me a big squeeze.

Its incredibly frustrating, disrespectful, and selfish pattern of behavior. How many time since I've said "please don't touch me, I'm not wanting that right now" has he tried to kiss, hug, cuddle and when turned down he goes "But I need this" "why can't I touch my wife??"

I am so detached from him right now there's no way he's using me for anything.

If he's SA, then I beg to differ.

I barely make physical contact he says, "put your arms around me". I comply (barely), then I get "come on now, give me a big squeeze." I am NOT squeezing him. I am NOT feeling the love. When he does this in front of my son I play along to maintain the fašade

It doesn't matter how half-hearted or sluggish or whatever your reciprocation is, you do it....even though you don't want to.

He needs to find a healthy way to soothe himself, to reassure himself. A way that does not involve using another human being for external validation.

"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.