As a student of cold reading, and having seen Edwards perform on his show and on other venues as recent as 24 hours ago, my take is that he has learned cold reading extremely well, has come up with very astute deflecting answers, thinks very quickly (he has an excellent intelligence and ability to "think on his feet"), and has created a morality that he can live with (that he is encouraging "closure" for those who are still living and who have lost those close to them.)

Since he is obviously (to the informed) using hit-or-miss cold reading techniques, and therefore BSing, I'm ASSUMING that last part about a "morality he can live with". If not, then he's just a con artist.

Since every night while channel surfing I have to briefly see that bandanaed Caribbean mama doing Tarot-based cold reading while ripping off the impressionable for their hard-earned long-distance dollars, Mr. Edwards only raises my irritability in terms of unbelievable gullibility and the potential psychological trauma uninformed viewers may incur.

It's one thing to go to a Mark Salem show. It's another to start wondering what your deceased relatives are telling John Edwards there in the studio (like maybe how you made that card jump to the top of the deck at the Christmas party.)

Edwards is clearly in the same category as Uri Geller: he's going to make a living, maybe even a fortune, by <claiming> he really has "the power".

Part of Bill Tadlock's mentalism lecture was about deciding if you were going to "claim" or not. Bill doesn't but Edwards does. Somehow that irks me, as it would if Mike Powers was to <claim> in court that he really did move holes through cardboard.

The show debuted yesterday on FOX here in Northern California. I don't use cable, as my TV is full of enough useless infopoop already without need for 60+ channels of it.

I was hoping to get some 'cold' insights but only found his unstaggering ability to hold to a statement until it reaches some justification. He sure is packing!

When he "missed" and then justified, it felt more like a planned miss to add "reality" to the atmosphere.

So much of the material appeared to be pre-show work but people will buy it. It was just too obscure. Maybe this is done through the editing process and showing the hit but not the trail to it. The "Shark Attack" by phone for instance.

I missed the opening of the show so I don't have a good fix on how he is pitching "the morality". He addressed questions of his ability on ET last night but I didn't see that either.

I also missed the close of the show. Everybody called me during this hour. Hmm...how spooky. Was JE running interferrence :rolleyes:

I was hoping to get some presentational spin for close-up but it looks like such will only be vaigue refference and tapping the public's interest.

The feel of the show is subdued so I don't see how it can maintain itself in that time slot, 4pm.

What do I think? If that is purely cold reading, I want to study at JE's feet.

It should be interesting to see if John Edwards gets approached on contacting any of the fatal victims from the WTC or airplanes. It would be interesting to see how he handles the situation.-Rene Clement

Secondly, John basically does Doris Stoke's old act. And, he does it brilliantly. There is no doubt, he is a brilliant cold-reader. (As an aside, Randi also battled with Doris).

Thirdly, moments like the WTC disaster allow us to see these fakirs from a more realistic perspective.

For instance: If John Edward were really able to contact the dead then he would have been called in by the US Govt, or a talk show like Larry King, to allow an accurate death toll to be reached without the painful day-by-day delay. It would have been the right thing to do, if he was genuine.

He was not called in, because under these circumstances, it is obvious that he is not real, and to portray him as such would be most offensive.

Also, how come no so-called "psychics" predicted this?

Will these fakirs use this act of terror to their own advantage? Yes they will. Just give it a little time.

Not to beat a dead horse, but John Edward was a guest on Larry King I guess just before the NY attack. The last couple of weeks have been a blur, so I'm not sure of the date.

Edward's performance was atrocious. He was missing over and over. From a cold reader's standpoint, it was just one of those bad nights. But as a purveyor of "real" ghostly communications, he must have shaken the faith of even the most believing.

One trick he tried was something like the following (each line changes from JE to the caller: )

Hi, this is Beula.Who is Fred?Uhhhhhhh.......

It's an "F"...a Fred...a Fran...a Flagler...Uhhhhhhhh......

Fred...Fran...Flagler...Uhhhhhhhhhhhh.......

This just isn't right. There's something "wrong" about this call...there's something "wrong"...go to the next caller.......

[new caller] This is Carmen.

[JE goes right back to the F's, as if the message is really from an F, but it was somehow coming for the NEXT CALLER!]

You are right. He is just a conman.However, the show is not entirely dependent upon editing. This sort of act can be delivered live without editing. These people fill auditoriums and flog their books, tapes, magic crystals, etc.

Right, Ben, but, like Blaine, he can't do on a live stage what he does on edited television. The opening claimer 'What you are about to see is real' is totally bunco, as was the 'documentary' that introduced Edward some months ago. The only way to see the 2-second disclaimer at the end of the program is to tape it and freeze the frame. It clearly states that Edward and the producers rely on 3rd party information.

I saw John Edwards a number of years aago in Key West (like 1994). He was running a spirit theater. I think I still have the flyer from the show. I did cold reading at Caesars Resorts for about 2 years and I think John is doing a great job. I don't really have an ethical problem with it. He's not advising on investments or on how the spectators should live their lives. He's just giving people a little piece of mind. That's my quick 2cents.... Ben S.

This is not the place to go into the ethics. However, your assumption about him not being harmful because he's NOT offering financial advice, is probably, incorrect.

The TV shows, talk show appearances and large theatre performances are the bait in this scam.

Medium acts(and this includes the now deceased "master" Doris Stokes) made/make their money with the private readings that spin off from the above venues.

Many of these private readings turn into ongoing consultations about all matters (including financial) that can run years or decades.

Yes, people do make financial decisions based on "communications from the other side." Thinking about it, this really should not be too suprising. Our society (broadly speaking)accepts astrology, aliens, esp, crystal-power, etc as matters of fact - rather than unproven flights of fancy.

People like Edward contribute to the dumming down of society. This weakens the ability to think rationally. It is, in a way, terrorism of the mind.

Is what John Edward is doing any more unethical than the direction David Blaine has been taking in his more recent specials? Both are portraying themselves as purveyers of "real" supernatural exploits, rather than as entertainers.

blaine is two faced..if you remember when he was trying to get the fella in the islands to watch his magic he stated over and over that he's just an entertainer. which is laughable at best. I feel he is no magician,faith healer or surpreme being. he is just a sleepy guy who does tricks.s.p.

I am somewhat suprised on a discussion of ethics over cold reading. I personally feel that if someone can make a living exploiting the stupidity of others, so be it. There is no doubt that John Edwards is a brilliant cold reader. The only thing that is in doubt is the intelligence of his audience. Hopefully Sylvia Browne will take the Randi challenge (although I'm not holding my breath) soon. With any luck, more people will wise up when she fails it horribly. While a cool party trick, cold reading is far from real and I applaud him for taking the money of dopes who think he can really communicate with the dead.

I assume that Ben researched the media archives to satisfy himself that none did. That being the case, he overlooked the UK archives.

Valerie Clarke's Amazing Prediction:

Where were the psychics with regard to the WTC tragedy? Perhaps she was in the UK. Valerie Clarke, a psychic from Lancashire, UK appeared on the BBC's "Kilroy Show" last June. On that program, which has been recorded, Clarke told host Robert Kilroy Silk that she had received a vision of a massive explosion caused by an aircraft crashing into the second tower of the World Trade Center. She told the BBC TV audience:

I had this dream a while ago and I thought it was a bombing at the World Trade Center. In my dream I was at the World Trade Center wandering the streets &#8211; I was in some sort of barricade when the building blew up. At the same time this plane went down behind it. In my dream I was not sure if the plane had gone into the building.

how lucky for her. its like she hit the psychic lotto. I am still a skeptic. seems the dream would have been relentless in her mind. how could her psychic ability let her and so many others down not to pursue it. don't the psychics have the ability to tell when certian dreams are more important than others they have. are they not psychic to their own psychic ability? so many forms of fraud in the world what makes cold reading any different? the fine print is interesting though. seems to me that 3rd party info gathering is all that need be said. cold reading is like an urban legend. "oh yes he/she talked to the dead". believers pay for their belief, skeptics shake their head, and the readers go to the bank. after watching a guy(names changed to protect the guilty) get a waitress crying after about 2 minutes into his cold reading. telling the poor girl all sorts of crap. he left and she continued to cry. like she could have done something different in her life to change the death of someone else. how sad it all was and is. its not for me. my father once told me that an amazing amount of the public has a sweet tooth for sh!t, this seems to be one of the better examples of it to me. as far as randi goes I think he has lost it. the last 3 times I have seen him on larry king he was a lump on a log. nothing of the randi of old. he must be tired. he should rethink his apperances and maybe hire a helper, someone who is as fired up as the psychos taking and givin' the calls. all we here about is the test. so few take it. the test seems silly as it is all he has to fall back on. I don't think I have ever heard about one of the top psycho's takin' it. heres my question .?.how about a fox show on the exposure of cold reading. the masked psychic. how many would be upset by that. how many magicians use cold reading. is it linked to our art, or is it a parasite that has latched on for the ride?Scotty

Ben Harris was talking about 'exploiting peoples stupidity".Well I certainly felt stupid when I paid $10 for something hemarketed called 'The Spooks'[A matchbox and an elastic band,it never did and never could have worked.Fantastic layout on the instuction booklet though!

Thank you Ben.It was called the'The creeps'I bought this a good five years ago and Iknow your customer service has improved a lot since then.Since you came back into marketing magic.You did lump Edwards,crystelsand Astrology all together as rubbish thoughThere is a good chance Edwards is a con but I think there maybe something to Asrology..Some one talked about America and free enterprise.Are not some of the bible thumping T.V. stations asking for donationsjust as bad as Edwards?.I did love the 'Quarks book! Best Mark

:eek: For years I was the voice of the syndicated radio program, Your Daily Horoscope. The more I got to know the writer of that show, the more I became fascinated with astrology.

When he was alive, every year on Sinatra's birthday [12/12] I invited an astrologer to my radio show, A Date With Sinatra, to 'tell me about' Frank's next 12 months. In 1997 one of the world's best known astrologers told me Sinatra would die the middle of May 1998.

"I had this dream a while ago and I thought it was a bombing at the World Trade Center. In my dream I was at the World Trade Center wandering the streets &#8211; I was in some sort of barricade when the building blew up. At the same time this plane went down behind it. In my dream I was not sure if the plane had gone into the building."

With all due respect, I find it hard to accept this as being an accuarate prediction of the Sept 11 terrorism attack.

To me, you need to read details into it retrospectively in order to create a "hit."

By the psychic's own admission she was not sure about the plane hitting the building.

She also claims the building blew up. It didn't, it collapsed later.

To me, a satisfying prediction would have been:

In Sept 2001, many groups will attempt to overpower planes in the U.S. 4 will succeed. 2 planes will crash into the WTC causing the complete collapse of two towers. The Pentagon will also be hit. One plane will appear to go astray.

If you follow the link Peter gives, you can read all about Valerie, other psychics, and find the comment:

"A psychic cannot be expected to be able to predict any given future event, no matter how significant it might be. The nature of such gifts, which we do not fully understand, itself seems to be unpredictable."

This raises the question...What possible value do psychics have for society?

Ben is correct: I did see him do "The Creeps" many years ago and it looked great. As Ben has reminded me, a friend staying with me back then tried to learn and had a tough time. That doesn't mean it's not a great trick, just that it's hard to get the feel for making the drawer move slowly.

Not only should a psycic be able to predict where the 4 hijacked planes crashed but also names of hijackers, names and events nobody outside the FBI might know at this point and details not yet dicovered by the investigation. Hey if they worked the FBI would use them to prevent crimes and terrorists attacks.

The real question is not whether or not they would be able to predict it, but rather who would listen to them if they did?

Joe Psychic: "Excuse me, President Bush, but I'm getting an impression of two planes flying into the World Trade Center on Sept. 11th around 9am. They will both collapse and man people will die. Another plane will crash into the Pentagon."

Pres. Bush: "Do you have any evidence to back this up? Can you show me documents that prove that people are preparing to do this?"

Joe Psychic: "Well...uh...no...but I have this really vivid picture of it in my head! and it happened in a dream last night, too! I'm telling you, it's gonna happen!"

Pres. Bush: "Security! Get this lunatic outta here! I don't have time for this!"

At least, that's how I see it happening. What's more, after the event actually happened, the psychic would probably be brought in for questioning to find out what his involvement was in the whole scheme and how he could know all the details.

So, even if someone could predict it, I doubt he would be given much credibility.

You made a wonderful point. Why have we not seen this happen? Could it be that the psychics don't have the conviction to follow through?

If I had been Valerie, and if I had really believed in my own "vision" then I would have almost sent myself to the grave out of sheer distress. Panic-city. I'd have been banging on doors until someone listened. I'd have been frantic. What did Valerie do between June and Sept? How many panic-stricken calls to officials did she make? Bet the answer is ZERO!

Mofo196: I've deleted your last post in this thread. You're free to say pretty much anything you want on these boards as long as you're not nasty to the other members, who are free to express their opinions. I don't care if you find them bizarre or stupid--keep it to yourself.

If psycics predicted the events of 9/11 why didnt they attempt to warn people despite people not believing them? It would strengthen their claims if they made an obvious attempt to warn people and many would begin to listen. Since none made the attempt, I can assume they either dont care or they cant predict the future.

Psycics who predict the past with great accuracy seem to be stuck on making money with 1-800 phone numbers and small shops. Why can they get rich by winning lotteries, betting on sporting events or playing poker? Why must they ask question similiar to cold readings and not just tell us the answers?

Could it be that the FBI dont believe psycics because they dont seem to work in preventing crimes? If they FBI used psycics to read minds, would they need to get a warrent to do so?

Given scam artists like Edward and the TV industry, you just KNEW it had to happen:

'Crossing Over' taps into Sept. 11 tragedy Broadcasting & Cable magazine is reporting that "Crossing Over" host John Edward "will feature attempts to communicate with victims of the Sept. 11 attacks" in several episodes airing next month during November sweeps. Steve Rosenberg, president of Studios USA domestic syndication, tells B&C the shows "will be done tastefully . . . and won't be exploitative." Rosenberg says "Crossing Over" producers received several phone calls from surviving family members asking to speak to Edward, who claims to communicate with the dead. "It seemed wrong not to do it," Rosenberg says. (STARR Report - NY Post)

If he was genuinely able to contact the dead, the WTC contact show would have gone ahead. Edward would have been consulted by the US Govt to supply early death-toll and details for the devastated families of lost ones, if he was real. It would have been the normal, expected thing to do. IF HE WAS REAL.

If he was REAL, it would not be in "bad taste," it would be "therapeutic."

It is only in "bad taste" because deep down inside we all (including the producers of Edward's show)really know the truth - YOU CANNOT CONVERSE WITH THE DECEASED. Thus, any attempts at exploitation of the WTC incident becomes abhorrent. The truth is now obvious.

It is very interesting social phenomenon in that disaster of this proportion changes the way we treat the reality/illusion divide.

This forum has encouraged me to start reading John Edward's book. He talks about communicating with his dead mother. Before she died of Cancer, they decided on three signs she would use thru a medium to prove that it was the her. One was Springfield, the name of a fictional town in some soap opera. However John Edward mentions the ONLY way the medium could express Springfield would be if the medium was a fan of the soap opera. So they broke it up into Spring and Field to better express it thru a medium.

There is quite a lot of discussion about Edward here: http://www.crossingover.co.uk/chat ... it is very frustrating to read the reasons why people think he is for real especially as some of them are absolutely convinced about his supposed abilities and refuse to listen to sane argument.

Growing up I pitched Svengali decks. In the booth next to mine was an old Gypsy who claimed to be able to tell the future, talk to the dead, and cure people of any illness by laying on her hands or chanting an icantation.

I would get sick watching people walking out of this place after handing over stacks of cash.

This is not a regular "con". Most cons rely upon the greed of the mark. In this case the con relys upon taking advatage of another persons suffering.

people who take advatage of the sick and suffering for their own profit are the lowest form of scumbag.

This is not harmless and it isn't about giving people closure. Trust me if a dirt ball like Edward ever got his hands on a cash whale the last thing he'd want to give that person would be closure.

He would be lining up sessions every week and each week would end with a cliff hanger worthy of a 1930's serial. He'd also be trying to get the whale to bring in other whale friends for a good cash blood letting.

I've always found it intriguing how, prior to the egotistic antics of a certain old Canadian the majority of magic buffs were blown away by Gellar, and later the two or three other flash in the pan types and finally Mr. Edward. Of course, the swill pit of magic (a.k.a. The Magic Cafe) went through and "edited" much of what was there prior to the PEOPLE article... I'll assume this was done so that some jerk like me couldn't point out all those posts there, at the Shadow Digest, the old MoMM, and numerous other sites... where all these present day "experts" couldn't figure it out.

Once the sales presentation was put forth by Mr. R & Co. everyone suddenly lit up and claimed to know and to have known the "truth" all this time.

The other side of the coin is that the majority of "magicians" don't understand that there is a huge chasm of difference between Cold Reading and being a Reader... if you want to get a "taste" of what that is, work with only Millard Longman's PSYCHIC SKILLS WORKSHOP material and the formulas shared in Knepper's MIND READING... toss all that Barnum and Forer CRAP in the round file (where it belongs) and pick up a divination tool or concept you're comfortable with and go for it!

I've had a couple of phone conversations with John Edward prior to the Randi smear campaign... I can assure you, what he shared with me about me and my life wasn't as readily explained as most would like to claim... and "coincidence" (the cynic's favorite cop-out... explanation) isn't even accepted by legitimate science, so let's not go there... nor should we say that I'm just not "educated enough" about how it all works for reasons that more than a few members here can explain to those that haven't a clue as to my specialty within the Mentalism world. ;)

I offer this point of contrast on this issue for a couple of reasons, the biggest of which centers on the fact that anyone wanting to learn how to be a solid Reader, especially from the stage, should watch John Edward religiously... he's one of the best I've ever seen within this kind of setting. By contrast however, Sylvia Brown and James VanPraagh are awesome examples of what not to do with the "Pet Psychic" leading the pack as one of the worse Readers on the planet.

The other reason I have offered this voice of challenge is a bit more "down to earth"... John Edward is not a "Predator" when it comes to his work and thus, not criminal as say Ms. Cleo was. The public places value in what he does... obviously more value than they would seeing something like... Oh... a magician that openly admits that he is acting like a psychic... let's face it, the so-called moral oriented and ethical one is typically pushing his luck asking for $10.00 a seat while Mr. Edward gets between $75.00 and $500.00 a seat... selling out most of the facilities his events are held in.

This man has a hell of a lot to teach us all if we'd just set our prejudices and arrogance off to the side and recognize a few very simple truths; starting with the fact that what he offers does not create "Victims"... it is non-predatory and though there is a spiritual theme running through it, it is sold as an entertainment and as a "Psychic Entertainer" he's proven to be far more successful than most of the experts standing on this side of the proverbial fence... hasn't he?

Shortly after the People magazine article came out John took the time to offer a rebuttal... it was quite interesting in that he revealed the things most of Randi & Company's "explanations" gloss over... starting with the fact that to do and use even half the methods some have theorized he's using, he'd have a staff of at least several hundred if not thousands and a surveillance network that would rival that of most nations. In other words, the methods don't stand up if you look at them from a logical point of view.

I'm one of the few people in this business that admits to being a "believer" of sorts... I'm one of the few that will stand up for the rights of other people to believe, even if it is something I do not personally support or patronize, such as most aspects of organized religion.

When I wrote the two articles for VISIONS eZine about the big mouths and bullies in today's magic world (when it comes to this sort of issue) I received more mail; letters of thanks and appreciation, than I've ever seen in all the years I've been with that publication. The reason is very simple; many are sick and tired of the evangelic spirit found in magic now days that is supportive of a strong atheist view... the negation of faith or belief at any level... even I am guilty of making a pun or two when it comes to certain religious ideas but I am not venomous about such things and I do not allow a person's beliefs (well, other than certain in-humanitarian ideas and racism) get in the way of what I do or how I interact with them.

I don't want this to turn into a typical "jump on the gullible fool" routine, which is so common when I or anyone speaks up in this manner. I just wanted to put some points of view on the table for all to consider -- quietly if possible and free of childish banter.