MaudlinMutantMollusk:As I recall, getting in a fight with Russia didn't work out so well for Germany last time

/just sayin'

Actually, it did work out well for them. Until their allies the Japanese screwed them over in two distinct ways:

1. They attacked the United States, which meant that the US wasn't just a bystander anymore. This meant billions of aid (in today's dollars) to the Soviet Union, without which they couldn't have fought effectively against the Germans. It would have been a reprise of the Eastern Front of WWI, when the Russians had to sue for peace.

2, They failed to keep dozens of Soviet Army divisions pinned in the Far East. By not going to war with the Soviet Union, and by not *ACTING* like they were going to, they let the Soviets move those divisions across the largest country in the World by rail in order to counter the Wehrmacht.

xanadian:The military-industrial complex has to turn a profit, subby. Think of all the jobs in weapons factories and in the military that would be lost if we didn't have a war.

Yeah, it's all a big conspiracy.

It has nothing to do with the Russians being aggressive and reminding Europe of 1939.

dittybopper:2, They failed to keep dozens of Soviet Army divisions pinned in the Far East. By not going to war with the Soviet Union, and by not *ACTING* like they were going to, they let the Soviets move those divisions across the largest country in the World by rail in order to counter the Wehrmacht.

They also didn't hold their ground and re-enforce the gains they had made before the onset of winter. Had Hitler not been kill-hungry and tried to fight during the Russian Winter, held his ground and then broke out during the next spring, things might have been different.

Ooh, the Germans are mad. I'm so scared! Ooh, the Germans! Uh oh, the Germans are going to get me! Don't let the Germans come after me! Oh no, the Germans are coming after me! They're so big and strong!

Arkanaut:Ooh, the Germans are mad. I'm so scared! Ooh, the Germans! Uh oh, the Germans are going to get me! Don't let the Germans come after me! Oh no, the Germans are coming after me! They're so big and strong!

hardinparamedic:They also didn't hold their ground and re-enforce the gains they had made before the onset of winter. Had Hitler not been kill-hungry and tried to fight during the Russian Winter, held his ground and then broke out during the next spring, things might have been different.

In 1941 maybe. In 1942, Germany was just trying to hold on in Stalingrad but ran out of supplies. The USSR eventually completed the encirclement and they were screwed.

dittybopper:MaudlinMutantMollusk: As I recall, getting in a fight with Russia didn't work out so well for Germany last time

/just sayin'

Actually, it did work out well for them. Until their allies the Japanese screwed them over in two distinct ways:

1. They attacked the United States, which meant that the US wasn't just a bystander anymore. This meant billions of aid (in today's dollars) to the Soviet Union, without which they couldn't have fought effectively against the Germans. It would have been a reprise of the Eastern Front of WWI, when the Russians had to sue for peace.

Your timeline is all fooked up.

Germany didn't invade Russia until nine months after Pearl Harbor. The Japanese and the Russians held a strict neutrality pact for the vast majority of the war. Russia broke it after Germany surrendered.

groppet:namatad: FFS, France and Germany are talking about joining forces and mobilizing against Russia.And so it begins.

Well they couldnt beat them on their own so guess they have to join forces to take on the bear.

Europe as a whole has spent 59 years since the end of WWII gearing up towards one thing, and one thing only: Keeping the Russians from driving them into the Atlantic off the tip of Spain. Every piece of military equipment that Western Europe has built has been designed to fight the Russian Military and their equipment, right down to the size of the guns and width of the hull of their tanks.

NATO, as a whole, is not concerned with taking land, invading countries, or waging aggressive war on the Russians. Their entire goal andexistence is to keep the Russians, especially Russianultra-nationalists, from doing it to them.

Rent Party:Germany didn't invade Russia until nine months after Pearl Harbor. The Japanese and the Russians held a strict neutrality pact for the vast majority of the war. Russia broke it after Germany surrendered.

Only after Japan sortied into Russia and realized they couldn't handle Russian armor. Had they persisted, though, maybe Zhukov never escapes his exile to the east because of his early victory at Khalkhin Gol, and isn't available to save Stalin and the USSR at Stalingrad.

Rent Party:dittybopper: MaudlinMutantMollusk: As I recall, getting in a fight with Russia didn't work out so well for Germany last time

/just sayin'

Actually, it did work out well for them. Until their allies the Japanese screwed them over in two distinct ways:

1. They attacked the United States, which meant that the US wasn't just a bystander anymore. This meant billions of aid (in today's dollars) to the Soviet Union, without which they couldn't have fought effectively against the Germans. It would have been a reprise of the Eastern Front of WWI, when the Russians had to sue for peace.

Your timeline is all fooked up.

Germany didn't invade Russia until nine months after Pearl Harbor. The Japanese and the Russians held a strict neutrality pact for the vast majority of the war. Russia broke it after Germany surrendered.

Any attack on a NATO nation is supposed to bring the entire alliance to defend it. And a lot of NATO nations are right on Ukraine's borders. Romania, Hungary, Slovakia, Poland. And the Baltic states on Russia's borders. Turkey as well. Any attack on them is supposed to be the same as an attack on Germany, France, the UK, Canada, or the US.

So this isn't 1914 or 1939 where the US can sit on the sidelines of a European war. It has been bound since the end of ww2 to defend its European allies.

Putin knows the Ukraine isn't in NATO, so he has more of a free hand there. Putin is too smart to risk the costs of a war with NATO, knows the NATO member states will saber rattle about his actions, but NATO has shown Ukraine isn't worth it to risk armed conflict.

dittybopper:MaudlinMutantMollusk: As I recall, getting in a fight with Russia didn't work out so well for Germany last time

/just sayin'

Actually, it did work out well for them. Until their allies the Japanese screwed them over in two distinct ways:

1. They attacked the United States, which meant that the US wasn't just a bystander anymore. This meant billions of aid (in today's dollars) to the Soviet Union, without which they couldn't have fought effectively against the Germans. It would have been a reprise of the Eastern Front of WWI, when the Russians had to sue for peace.

2, They failed to keep dozens of Soviet Army divisions pinned in the Far East. By not going to war with the Soviet Union, and by not *ACTING* like they were going to, they let the Soviets move those divisions across the largest country in the World by rail in order to counter the Wehrmacht.

Well.... while those did play a role in their ultimate downfall on the eastern front, there's a lot to be said about their fuel consumption. They failed to take the rich oil fields in the south, thus their war machine halted outside of moscow, unable to keep up with the momentum of the blitz, not to mention that the weather was causing them to burn twice as much fuel than expected. The pause that was created was a combinationof various factors, some more than others. In terms of the US entry into the war and its effects on the Eastern Front, they were not immediate enough as the the true Western Front was opened until very late in the war. Though to be fair, once it was, their fate was sealed.