Andrew108 wrote:If the consort has no realization then it's just ordinary sexual activity. The student must be sufficiently awakened and the teacher must know that. Also the consort must have as much knowledge about the practice as the teacher has. If there is a claim of exploitation then you can be sure that it was ordinary sexual activity. If there is a command to secrecy then you can be sure that it was ordinary sexual activity.

No, the lama needs to have realization. The consort won't have that yet. The lama instructs the consort and uses the practice to ripen the consort. The consort would at most have experience with development stage, and the consort practice is part of the completion stage. The realization doesn't happen until after a long time practicing consort completion stage. If we are talking Dzogchen, then the consort would have direct introduction and some experience with guru yoga. Then, it is possible to practice with methods of pleasure. It doesn't me he or she is realized. Sometimes the experience will be dualistic and sometimes there will be stability in contemplation. Through practice one gains stability with contemplation. The methods are for transforming dualistic vision into nondual vision or in Dzogchen, stabilizing and deepening contemplation. It does not mean you are already in nondual contemplation 24/7. If that is the case, then there is no need for consort practice.

If I shout and get angry with you and then tell you that you should take anger to the path, how would you react? You would have to know how to take anger to the path and you wouldn't be passive. You would need to give as good as you get. You would have to get angry with me and we would both have to know what this display of anger is all about. It would be no good if I treated you as a slave or tried to dominate you. So with all of these practices, where we are looking at the nature of the emotion, we are trying to overcome ignorance. We are not creating more ignorance. We create more ignorance with these types of consort practice if one of the two practitioners doesn't get it equally. So the realization has to be equal otherwise we are just creating or perpetuating the causes of ignorance. If not then we are standing on our consort's shoulders to proclaim how high our view is.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

Simon E. wrote:No. There are a range of possibilities other than celibacy or bonking their students.They might actually have to work at a relationship for example...Like Ato Rinpoche or Chime Rinpoche or nowadays Sogyal Rinpoche. You know, treat the woman or man as a human being rather than a conduit for their little trip.

I'm not addressing the specific issues between lamas and their students, but Tibetan culture in general. It was quite common for married men in pre-communist Tibet to need to travel for work for months at a time. As I understand it, it was a given that they would have extra-marital affairs while they were on the road. Sex is not dirty or bad in TIbetan society, they don't have any Puritans in their history. Practical and earthy.

Yes in Ladhak the most families have two men. This because the fiekds are far away and one man has to be at home (Polygamy). I don't know if this custom is also widespread outside Lhadak. If men could have two women in Tibet, that would be only possible in western Tibet where there are some Muslims living.

---------------------WIKIPEDIA:Studies have attempted to explain the existence of polyandry in Tibet. One reason put forward in traditional literature is that: By not allowing land to be split between brothers, Tibetan families retained farms sufficiently large to continue supporting their family. A compelling socio-biological justification for polyandry is that it makes good genetic sense for brothers to raise one another's children since a brother possesses the next closest gene pool to their own.----------------------

Another reason for polyandry is that the mountainous terrain makes some of the farm land difficult to farm, requiring more physical strength. Women take multiple husbands because they are strong and able to help tend the land.

Fast forward to globetrotting lamas of the present, it's no big deal to them to have sex with women when they're on the road--it might be viewed from a very earthy level, just to share pleasure. No idea of initiating a relationship, or doing anything harmful or emotion-laden. Huge culture gap with us, sometimes. On the other hand, lots of women initiate sex with attractive lamas. Perceived power turns a lot of women on, like rock stars, basketball players, rich men, and doctors

Well you are right there is sometimes spoken of sexual abuse regarding the unwanted sexual intimidations of some of them.

As a reason could we also concider some behaviour of western women towards Tibetan Rinpoche/ Lamas. Once, did i wittnessed that a westen lady was undressing herself behind the throne. In those days i was a monk and was seated beside the throne , so i could watch that show. Another fiend of mine a very good looking Kagyud Lama, who looks like Bruce lee, has mainly women followers / admirers. And they don't make it easy for him.......

So we can look this problem from both sides and see here all kinds of misunderstandings and misbehaviours regarding sexual intimidations.

But the worst of them is the sexual intimidation towards a female greenhorn who doesn't know what to do in such case..........This is for me on one line with the sexual abuse in the catholic church, which is also based on a certain God power.

By the way it was in the Indian old Tantric days also not per se forbidden to take as karma mudra (Mahasiddhas) a 12 years old virgin. Am glad that times did change somehow.

But what was the position of the woman in those days as well India and Tibet? Ok not mentioned the few female enlightened women in Tibet we know. Also not to forget, that in India the Shakyamuni Buddha, did not allowed that women could enter the order. But it was due to the efforts of Ananda that the Buddha did agreed. Here we see that the position of the women was not that what it should be and that could maybe also be a certain factor, regarding the sexual abuse / intimidation(s), of certain Tibetan lamas.............

Mutsug MarroKY

THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNEDIF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGEHE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MANWHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD

deepbluehum wrote:No, the lama needs to have realization. The consort won't have that yet. The lama instructs the consort and uses the practice to ripen the consort. The consort would at most have experience with development stage, and the consort practice is part of the completion stage. The realization doesn't happen until after a long time practicing consort completion stage. If we are talking Dzogchen, then the consort would have direct introduction and some experience with guru yoga. Then, it is possible to practice with methods of pleasure. It doesn't me he or she is realized. Sometimes the experience will be dualistic and sometimes there will be stability in contemplation. Through practice one gains stability with contemplation. The methods are for transforming dualistic vision into nondual vision or in Dzogchen, stabilizing and deepening contemplation. It does not mean you are already in nondual contemplation 24/7. If that is the case, then there is no need for consort practice.

If I shout and get angry with you and then tell you that you should take anger to the path, how would you react? You would have to know how to take anger to the path and you wouldn't be passive. You would need to give as good as you get. You would have to get angry with me and we would both have to know what this display of anger is all about. It would be no good if I treated you as a slave or tried to dominate you. So with all of these practices, where we are looking at the nature of the emotion, we are trying to overcome ignorance. We are not creating more ignorance. We create more ignorance with these types of consort practice if one of the two practitioners doesn't get it equally. So the realization has to be equal otherwise we are just creating or perpetuating the causes of ignorance. If not then we are standing on our consort's shoulders to proclaim how high our view is.

The realization has to be equal. It's not just a case of doing the visualization or knowing the mechanics of the practice. The view has to be shared and realization of the view has to be equal. Patrul Rinpoche was often quoted as saying that following dharma incorrectly can be a cause for birth in the lower realms. I don't know personally how true this is, but I do know that when a lama has sex with their student they are often doing it from a state of being caught up and conditioned by appearances.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

Simon E. wrote:No. There are a range of possibilities other than celibacy or bonking their students.They might actually have to work at a relationship for example...Like Ato Rinpoche or Chime Rinpoche or nowadays Sogyal Rinpoche. You know, treat the woman or man as a human being rather than a conduit for their little trip.

I'm not addressing the specific issues between lamas and their students, but Tibetan culture in general. It was quite common for married men in pre-communist Tibet to need to travel for work for months at a time. As I understand it, it was a given that they would have extra-marital affairs while they were on the road. Sex is not dirty or bad in TIbetan society, they don't have any Puritans in their history. Practical and earthy.

Yes in Ladhak the most families have two men. This because the fiekds are far away and one man has to be at home (Polygamy). I don't know if this custom is also widespread outside Lhadak. If men could have two women in Tibet, that would be only possible in western Tibet where there are some Muslims living.

---------------------WIKIPEDIA:Studies have attempted to explain the existence of polyandry in Tibet. One reason put forward in traditional literature is that: By not allowing land to be split between brothers, Tibetan families retained farms sufficiently large to continue supporting their family. A compelling socio-biological justification for polyandry is that it makes good genetic sense for brothers to raise one another's children since a brother possesses the next closest gene pool to their own.----------------------

Another reason for polyandry is that the mountainous terrain makes some of the farm land difficult to farm, requiring more physical strength. Women take multiple husbands because they are strong and able to help tend the land.

Fast forward to globetrotting lamas of the present, it's no big deal to them to have sex with women when they're on the road--it might be viewed from a very earthy level, just to share pleasure. No idea of initiating a relationship, or doing anything harmful or emotion-laden. Huge culture gap with us, sometimes. On the other hand, lots of women initiate sex with attractive lamas. Perceived power turns a lot of women on, like rock stars, basketball players, rich men, and doctors

Well you are right there is sometimes spoken of sexual abuse regarding the unwanted sexual intimidations of some of them.

As a reason could we also concider some behaviour of western women towards Tibetan Rinpoche/ Lamas. Once, did i wittnessed that a westen lady was undressing herself behind the throne. In those days i was a monk and was seated beside the throne , so i could watch that show. Another fiend of mine a very good looking Kagyud Lama, who looks like Bruce lee, has mainly women followers / admirers. And they don't make it easy for him.......

So we can look this problem from both sides and see here all kinds of misunderstandings and misbehaviours regarding sexual intimidations.

But the worst of them is the sexual intimidation towards a female greenhorn who doesn't know what to do in such case..........This is for me on one line with the sexual abuse in the catholic church, which is also based on a certain God power.

By the way it was in the Indian old Tantric days also not per se forbidden to take as karma mudra (Mahasiddhas) a 12 years old virgin. Am glad that times did change somehow.

But what was the position of the woman in those days as well India and Tibet? Ok not mentioned the few female enlightened women in Tibet we know. Also not to forget, that in India the Shakyamuni Buddha, did not allowed that women could enter the order. But it was due to the efforts of Ananda that the Buddha did agreed. Here we see that the position of the women was not that what it should be and that could maybe also be a certain factor, regarding the sexual abuse / intimidation(s), of certain Tibetan lamas.............

Mutsug MarroKY

It's a really complex issue, isn't it? Without a doubt there is manipulation and intimidation by some men with the lama title, especially of young women and blonds. Then there are many happy consensual relationships, both casual and long term, between male lamas and western females--I know a bunch of them. Then, there are a certain breed of western woman who really wants sex with lamas, even some who are turned on by the idea of sleeping with monks and do their best to seduce them.

Also, there are these general notions that every male Tibetan with a lama, tulku or Rinpoche title is enlightened, and are expert in every level of practice. These are titles, people, it is better to drop the naivete' right away, and connect with the very best of the best. In the case of anuyoga, very few people are strong anuyoga practitioners -- one really needs to do a lot of difficult retreat on it and start practice when one is young. A small minority of lamas are expert in this, sadly. On another level, It is believed to be a source of blessing to have ordinary sex with a truly great yogin -- I imagine that would be based on having faith. The lama title has nothing to do with that -- there might be someone sitting next to you with such blessings -- who knows?

I was trying to say. Is there anything inherently unhealthy, being intimate with a uninhibited and strong woman that knows what she want's? To me it seems only better and healthier, when it comes to situations like these, that is discussed in this thread.

"You would have to know how to take anger to the path and you wouldn't be passive. You would need to give as good as you get. You would have to get angry with me and we would both have to know what this display of anger is all about. It would be no good if I treated you as a slave or tried to dominate you. So with all of these practices, where we are looking at the nature of the emotion, we are trying to overcome ignorance. We are not creating more ignorance."

This is a good and important point I think. No one talks about bringing anger onto to the path and yet anger is a far less complicated emotion than those generated by sexual activity.

And if you think that bringing anger onto the path is not valid, what do you think those wrathful yab-yum deities are for?

Sexual activity is one of most compicated activities human beings engage in. It is fraught with underlying emotion for nearly everyone. And I think you're kidding yourself if you do not understand this. In a long term, established relationship, yes, it can be done for simply pleasure. But it takes a long time to get to that point. To start out that way, in a sort of "casual encounter" is to set yourself up for a lot of difficulty. Even if you don't understand or feel it at the time.

This is just my opinion but I'm going to say it as plainly as I can. Resolving emotion is one of the most important and difficult tasks facing Buddhists today. Why? Because human beings everywhere are walking around with so much unexplored and unacknowledged emotion that will eventually become problematic. One look at what happened in Aurora, Colorado should be enough to understand that. Emotion, real emotion, can be buried in the body for an entire lifetime. It can and will manifest as disease, interpersonal problems, a gunman walking into a movie theater or on a global scale, war. If Buddhist today are to help resolve these issues they have to be willing to explore in depth their own emotions.

But first you have to know you have them. And they are complicated. Vajrayana practices are actually quite good at resolving these sorts of emotional issues. But they require maturity to accomplish. Strangely enough, they require emotional maturity. Which is, I suppose, another way of saying, most people learn by doing. And that is always a bit messy. But friends, real friends, can help each other.

“All highest yoga tantras, with different degrees of emphasis, teach that reliance on the method of union with a qualified consort is an indispensable step in the path to realization.”

The Treasury of Knowledge Book Six, Part Four:Systems of Buddhist TantraJamgon Kongtrul Lodro TayeTrans. Elio Guarisco and Ingrid McLeod

What does union mean? Can a realized yogi – ordained or not – call the mind of his or her consort (human or non-human), through mantra and visualization, and enter into union? Does the human consort have to be there in physical form? Ordained practitioners do enter into and practice union with human consorts, but the human being isn’t physically present, and the experience of union arises according to his or her realization – maybe they see the Lama as the Deity, or maybe they develop the same attachment that would arise in a purely physical relationship. What is meant by “qualified consort” is someone who isn’t lost in ordinary attachment. Mind-consorts are both human and non-human and the Mahasiddha activity is mind activity. In Tibetan and Indian cultures, they see and experience each others mind. I mean their visualizations are a shared experience.

I don’t know if I wrote that very well, but I think we get stuck a very conceptualized western view of union practice, and it is not always experienced that way by all cultures.

What we have to define here is “actual.” What “actual” means in mundane conceptuality and what “actual” refers to in Vajrayana meditation is different. Ordained Lamas enter into union with actual consorts, but he or she isn’t physically present --- however, mundane sexual bliss is experienced by a consort or lama who has ordinary attachment. However, if he or she understands the visualization – the generation and the completion phases of deity practice, the experience of union is drawn into his or her practice.

Even married Lamas rely on a “mind-consort” that may or may not be his or her “actual” marriage partner.

For the practice of deity yoga, practitioners rely on the mind. The physical sensations are the same as actual sexual union and the experience varies according to the level of realization of the Lama and his or her consort.

My point is that they are not in union in bed – even married practitioners enter into union through meditation – through the power of calling the mind of the consort through visualization and mantra. In this case, they don’t need to be in the same room, the same house, the same country or even in the same realm – as in the case of non-human consorts. We need to redefine or expand upon the term “actual” consort according to a Vajrayana perspective.

I wrote this is a previous thread. Look, we don’t need years of special training. What we need to develop is the right attitude, motivation, devotion and visualization. We need to “get online” with an authentic Lama through uncontrived devotion and visualization. I read so much about “emptiness”, “the uncontrived mind”, “bliss” and so forth on these threads, but when it comes to the consort --- ooooh la la --- she better be real! 3-D and in my bed!!! This is not what they do. If they acted like this, they couldn’t be called teachers of any tradition. They would simply be ordinary beings. The crux of Vajrayana practice is mind practice. The essence of mind is bliss. The offering of bliss arises from and is received and is experienced in mind. Go for the mikpa. Develop the mental offerings. Offer continuously in the mind to the Lama one has developed devotion for – if it is a genuine Lama, he or she, by the nature of mind -- the essence of the teachings and samayas, has no choice but to offer bliss. If the student can engage his or her mind in the mikpa during a puja or teaching session when the Lama is physically present, it is often easier for the student to connect with the Lama and really feel that he or she is working with the student. One to one interviews are not all that important. Getting online in the mind with the Lama is the most important practice. Experience bliss through the mind consort of the Lama. All you need to get there is devotion and sincere effort. Stop analyzing the words and go for the meaning in the heart of the Lama.

It is said that you can tell whether someone has just eaten by how red his face is. Similarly, you can tell whether people know and practice the Dharma by whether it works as a remedy for their negative emotions and ego-clinging. --Jetsun Mila

The hungry are not satisfied by hearing about food; what they need is to eat. In the same way, just to know about Dharma is useless; it has to be practiced. --Jetsun Mila

This stuff messes with my head. This matter can cause anyone to be deterred of Buddhism, sadly. Everyone has sex but well, it is a "sensitive" subject as already said and people think it is not compatible with a "spiritual" path and laughs at the rabbit-buddhist and some would not even discuss these matters with a priest. Nobody has a problem with a married lama but these are so-called close matters even if intimate (physical) contact is an impersonal force.

Don´t ask, don´t tell. Just don´t brag is my opinion, it´s tiresome! You don´t know if anyone had better sex than others, even if they had more...

Is that your personal experience or did you receive a teaching from a lama to that effect?

It mentions in the commentaries to some of these instructions that you need someone who's a riot in the sack (paraphrasing). The idea is to get really balls to the walls passionate. This is about energy. Guru Rinpoche mentions using toys and you need a pretty open minded lady to join in that activity. If you read the accounts by Mandarava and Yeshe Tsogyal about how they got into it with Guru Rinpoche, it got wild. ChNN gave instructions recently about it. KDL spoke about it. There's really not a lot to the practice. It's pretty basic. Lamas these days speak in guarded tones about this stuff. The texts are much more candid. Where ChNN uses the term "vigorously," you understand, "Go nuts."

odysseus wrote:Logically, this would mean a "whore". Hmm... is that any healthier to get intimate with a whore?

This is just your limited idea.

What I meant is that it´s difficult to know anyones level of realisation even if they are inhibited or "strong and know what they want". Peace.

You don't need to know anyone's level of realization. To know if someone is boring or fun in the sack, there's only one way to find out.

I know there are commentaries where lamas say both partners need to have the same level of realization. What it's meant is that both have received HYT empowerments. There's no way Tseringma and her sisters (I'm always think he's talking about Rosy Palm and her Five Sisters, Tse Ring Finga and her four sistas) could have been at the same level of realization as Milarepa, especially since he berated them for being ordinary and only gave them teachings on karma, etc., in exchange they gave him their bodies. Same with Guru Rinpoche and his consorts. He was obviously a buddha and trained them using consort practice. There are also so many examples of yogis on the path, coupling with dakinis from other dimensions, where the dakinis are obviously buddhas and the yogi is on the path. Then there is the cases of the guru coupling his two students together where they are both beginners and have no realization at all. So the whole matter is not so easily categorized in neat piles like you want it to be. In the case of Dzogchen, it doesn't matter if your partner has direct introduction or not, as long as you do you can use the method.

This thread is basically about worldly politics and social values. This is a big issue. I think if you are caught up in these ideas and definitions, you are probably a prude and are badmouthing karmamudra because you are scared of that little tingle inside. Besides, whore are cool. Jesus dated a whore. Tilopa worked for a whore pimp. Don't hate. Turn it around.