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Originally posted by shartley I thought I laid out a good argument that costs were not a relevant issue for delays… which was the main gripe by some folks on AO.

the problem im seeing is that you didnt seem to take in exactly the point of view that she has and imediately tossed it out. she is giving her own experience because she identifies with what is happening with tom and telling everyone what happens when they listen to what people SAY they want.

frankly sam, I feel like you always give yourself way too much credit to yourself as an embassador for people(which is what your doing in this situation). and if this is all some kinda ploy then i hate you both

No, you took out the remark

because it was uncalled for to attack someone who was just giving their opinion, as you have in the past. Rather than "sink to my level", you often drag me to yours. And you knew I would make you pay for it, just as I have made you pay every other time we have clashed. You simply can't hang mentally. Anywho, if you read Tom's post, clearly people ARN'T "stepping up" to fill their spot, despite all claims to the contrary.

I'm sorry. Did you not read the whole thing? Maybe you can only read the smaller, simpler words. If you don't like it no one is forcing you to buy it. If you check my sig. you will see that I own an Impulse also. I have had 2 cockers in the past. I have shot nearly every gun under the sun and I like alot of them. The Matrix springs to mind. I like AGD quality. The Matrix is not only somewhat inefficient, it also has a less than stellar maintenance record. Cockers are great as long as you don't screw with them. How many people do you know do that? The E-mag is the sweetest gun I have ever shot. My Imp, the Matrix and E-class cockers are all close seconds. If you piss and moan about the wait to get an X-mag then you don't want the quality or you don't feel that that is the best gun for you. If you want you can spend 1500+ on a Dark IR3 if you like. I, personally, would wait for the X-mag because I have shot IR3s and they didn't suit me. Its not to say that the IR3 is not a sweet gun, its just not for me. What I see are mostly, maybe not all, a bunch of whiny rich kids that want the latest and greatest because they can. If its yesterday's news is not what they want. Some of these people have never shot a 'Mag before let alone and E-mag. Screw it. I believe in AGD quality, speed and dedication to its customers, but I understand that it is just a business and people gotta eat. I buy AGD becuase I know all these things and that attracts me to AGD as much as any expensive gizmo or new fangled dodad.

To those of you who think that AGD should not have produced the XMag unless they could keep up with demand:

How is it hurting AGD to have a back order of their top of the line marker? Don't answer with they could make more money if they had more. Do you know what the extra costs would be in producing more products than you currently have customers for? YOU don't like the fact that you have to wait. I contend that it is NOT hurting AGD's business to have a back order. AGD may have lost a few customers. Less that 1/10 of 1% I'm guessing. I'm also guessing that they gained more than that with the XMag. And they can sell every single one they make WITHOUT having to inventory them. Sounds like sound business to me.

Internet demand does NOT translate into hard sales. So far I have only seen two people who would buy one right now if there were more available. Since this is "internet demand" it is likely that one of them would back out if they were actually available right now. The demand just isn't as high as some think. "EVERYONE" claimed that the Z-Grip would sell hundreds if they were just available. Remember when Tom found some? What happened? Some of them sold, but some of the same people who said they would sell like crazy started complaining that they weren't "intelli-feed ready". YOU CAN NOT JUDGE DEMAND HERE ON AO. It really is that simple.

the problem im seeing is that you didnt seem to take in exactly the point of view that she has and imediately tossed it out. she is giving her own experience because she identifies with what is happening with tom and telling everyone what happens when they listen to what people SAY they want.

frankly sam, I feel like you always give yourself way too much credit to yourself as an embassador for people(which is what your doing in this situation). and if this is all some kinda ploy then i hate you both

I can understand that. But that was not my argument. My argument was that you can’t blame the cost it takes to MAKE something on its being delayed. I never stated that it is not an issue for a manufacturer to think about and weigh before making a product… in fact, I think I even mentioned that in one of my other posts.

My argument and disagreement is that the cost paid by the manufacturer is not an arguing point for delays… only whether the product is made or not. And honestly, I don’t think the average person cares how much something cost to make, they care about what it costs THEM. LOL Is it, or is it not, worth the money they are asked to pay for it. And that has nothing to do with the time they have to wait for the product.

I am not setting myself up as an ambassador for anything. I am simply stating what I feel the general public feels (and I am one of that general public ). If folks think I am wrong, by all means say so and argue the issue. But whether I am right or wrong, that does not mean I should be called names for it.

Again, I AGREE that how much a product costs the manufacturer to make is a valid issue on how much they charge for it, or even make it at all. I agree, that listening to one very vocal group without taking into account many other things can get a manufacturer in trouble (and even stated so earlier). But I don’t agree that any of that has a darn thing to do with any delays a product may have.

500 pieces or 5000. Do people actually think 5000 pieces will be made FASTER than 500? One can argue that the cost per piece will be reduced for the manufacture (when buying from a 3rd party), but the speed of it being manufactured should not be reduced as well. And this reduction in per piece cost for the manufacturer can be passed on to the consumer… absolutely. But the big gripe was not the end price, but the availability of the product all together. And that is a totally different issue.

I honestly think that the average consumer walking into a Paintball Store could care less how much money Tom put into making the product (or any company with any product). They also don’t care how many were made. I feel what they care about is the actual cost, if it is worth the price to them, and that it IS there to buy.

This is not a slam on the X-Mag, AGD, Heather, Myself, heck anyone. It is what I think is the simple truth in manufacturing and sales. Folks may disagree with this and I welcome them to state their opinion… on the matter… not me personally. After all, that is all I did.

Re: No, you took out the remark

1) I took it out b/c I decided it was mean spirited and yes, took me to your level.
2) I would have been polluting AO with your negative attitude AGAIN- therefore I took it out.
3) This is Tom's thread and this kind of Bs wasn't needed. Therefore, it got removed.
4) You have YET to "make me pay" ANYWHERE on AO.
5) I'm not the one who was warned to shape up before being banned. Let's remember that.

Originally posted by ddinwdc because it was uncalled for to attack someone who was just giving their opinion, as you have in the past. Rather than "sink to my level", you often drag me to yours. And you knew I would make you pay for it, just as I have made you pay every other time we have clashed. You simply can't hang mentally. Anywho, if you read Tom's post, clearly people ARN'T "stepping up" to fill their spot, despite all claims to the contrary.

Re: "go some where else"

Originally posted by ddinwdc I love it. What do you think is going to happen when people start taking that advice? No X-mag, no Emag, and no AGD. Telling people to "go somewhere else" is a very bad idea, and I am dismayed that AGD would promote suggestion as a real option. "You have to wait for quality, everything else sucks". Sorry, but that lists right up there with cockers shoot farther and straighter; its AGD's own brand of hype. There are alot of quality markers on the market, and they get bettter every day. Keep telling people to go somewhere else, and you know what? They just might do that. And as far as quality is concered..."cough" first batch of ULE bodies "cough" superbolt "cough"

Oh for gods sake will people PLEASE learn to read statements how people intended them rather than getting all cranky and defensive.

'Hype'? Eh? The guy was doing people a favour by basically saying "I'm sorry, the wait isn't going to get any shorter, so I'm not going to BS you and give you false hope" and yet muppets like you decide to take that statement as proof that the company doesn't care about its customers?

Personally I'm a 'glass half-full' person, while you seem to be a 'glass? glass? what goddam glass?' person. Get a grip.

Lets start by saying this tread was a post to tell about the delays in the Xmag and no it turned into a bunch of old *****s complaining about each other. Can we mabey get back on track.If it is not someone with there head so far up AGDS rear it is fight between members. I think the Xmag is a great gun and should be made alittle faster. I dont want to wait but I mite. If you need 1 rite away look around they are beeing sold used and if I didnt just spend a ton money on a laser level for work I would have bought the 1 that was just on ebay and only sold for $1200.00.
So they are out there if you look.

Originally posted by shartley I am not setting myself up as an ambassador for anything. I am simply stating what I feel the general public feels (and I am one of that general public ). If folks think I am wrong, by all means say so and argue the issue. But whether I am right or wrong, that does not mean I should be called names for it.

well the way you speak comes off to me as what you believe to be what everyone thinks. is that your intent? maybe, maybe not. i think the reason people end up having a problem with you is because of that kinda feeling you give off in what you say and the rashness of it kinda sets them off

well the way you speak comes off to me as what you believe to be what everyone thinks. is that your intent? maybe, maybe not. i think the reason people end up having a problem with you is because of that kinda feeling you give off in what you say and the rashness of it kinda sets them off

I understand. That excuses everyone else’s actions.

“Well miss, I know you were raped but if you had not worn that top and your jeans were not so tight, let alone that smile you gave him…….. “

Blame me for my actions and words, not other people’s. That is all I ask… and I am sure everyone else would want nothing less for themselves. If I am allowed to state what I think others might want, who knows, I may be wrong.

I think the whole issue should be dropped. I am currently not upset about any of it…. it was a misunderstanding, and not from my end. It is over.

Tom,
I tottally agree with you. I had to wait a year for my Xmag and when I finally got it I was very pleased. It is one of the best guns I have ever shot. I have always shot AGD and will continue to shoot my xmag even if you didn't sponsor us. I know that when I purchase AGD I will get a quality product. To those that have not gotten one yet, please wait it is the best gun on the planet. Tom will be back on top of the industry in no time with this marker. Once again Tom thanks.

If you didn't want to pollute this thread

with "bs", then why even elude to a negative remark you had made about me? Why not simply delete it and leave it at that? Classic passive-aggresiveness, the sign of a true coward. Still waiting on that number, Nick; don't make me have to find it.

Re: If you didn't want to pollute this thread

Told you- you want my number? Buy me dinner first.

Originally posted by ddinwdc with "bs", then why even elude to a negative remark you had made about me? Why not simply delete it and leave it at that? Classic passive-aggresiveness, the sign of a true coward. Still waiting on that number, Nick; don't make me have to find it.

i have been on AO for over 2 years, and i read and followed many of the forums for another 2 before becomming a part of this community. I seriously think that some people have signed on this forum not to be part of a Mag's owners group but to be part of a paintball forum. hey thats great, but some of these people bring alot of un-wanted negitivity to AO that never existed when i became a part of this forum. Many of the old timers just ignore it, and while i may not have as much senority as them i really see no need to ignore it. I enjoy the wait for the X-mags, that means when i get one people will know that i must have really wanted it (as i do) if you do not want one bad enought to wait then get a e-mag and a sluggo and save yourself $400. If thats not an option then buy an angel, or beter a nerve or shocker or impulse and then you will see exactly why AGD is worth the wait. so my advice to anyone who can not wait, GROW UP AND STOP CRYING GO BUY SOMETHING ELSE AND HANG OUT ON THEIR OWNERS GROUP
(sorry for the novel)

Tom was the last of a now extinct breed, a breed of players who build a community, a breed of owners who gave to the sport never taking more than what they deserved. I hope to see you at the feild again some day....

Amen, TK. People don't realize how much of a pain it is to work on increasing production when you work a smaller outfit than other companies. I haven't owned a company or anything but I have done a couple scenarios in my old school.

For all those people out there saying "MARKET MARKET MARKET!"... Where is AGD going to get the money to sponsor a big team, put up a huge ad campagne? You can't just hand an xmag to a team and tell them to advertise for you. You can't just make an ad and then tell a magazine to put it in your pages. YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR ALL THAT CRAP.

All that crap you want to pay for might increase pre orders but then there's the issue of keeping up with those orders. Yeah, increasing facilities... That means you'd probably need to spend huge sums of money to increase what you have now. I think that a cnc to mill a C&C xmag body is around... half a million dollars. That's for one machine... What about leasing new facilities? What about new staff? What about buying rights to the C&C xmag body? What about other machines needed to mill the other parts? Do you get my point? There's going to be a lot of spending to increase production and demand. AGD isn't a big company with tons of machines working in house around the clock. They aren't a WDP or WGD... They get parts from suppliers and then assemble them. I'd figure the process isn't near as fast as other companies.

People in paintball are full of bull sometimes too. I mean, there are people who say "I want this!" and "I definitely will buy that!". Would you trust those people and produce to meet those demands to find that they were all talk? AGD is playing it smart. There are tons of people who are all talk out there that will probably screw you over if you listen to them. For example, AGD's roller trigger crisis... They listened to a lot of people talk... (okay maybe about 70 to 100 people) and they figured they'd sell a good margin of them. The first batch sold out fast, so they made a bigger batch... This time nearly no one bought one. That means 50 of those 70 people were all talk.

The fact of the matter is , Tom Kaye really has no control over how many X-Mags get made right now , it was created by AGDE . I understand that it can be frustratiing when you are taking heat for something you can't control, but don't want to say its someone else's fault when they are doing everything they can to help you out .

Having such a low supply , and such a high demand usually isn't considered good buisness , but AGD isn't your usual company . AGD does have a tendency to over-engineer it's products , it sometimes leads to longer build times but results with a product that will withstand what most other paintball guns never could .

Like Tom said the x-mag wasn't designed for everyone , most people will be just as well off buying a ULE bodied , e-mag for about half the price of an x-mag .

"Anyone can slap together a high-end electro , where as building a high-end mechanical is truely an art form" - nuclear zombie

I can understand where Tom is coming from. It would be gut wrenching for me to have to read some of the stuff on the forum about delivery as well. What amazed me the most was how one minute we were singing Tom's praises about Level 10 then we quickly switched to back stabbing him about delivery issues on the Xmag. I'm still in awe of Level 10 every time I gas up my marker. It has been a vocal minority that have been complaining. Most of AO seems satisfied with everything we have been getting (with my Level 10 and new ULE body I've got everything I was hoping for!)

One concise message to AGD

I think most of us could care less about the X-mag or its availability. Few can aford the price, and even less think it offers substantially more performance over what we already have. We do, however, want ULE products, and we want them to be available. Make more ULE stuff, make sure you keep it IN STOCK and don't sweat the X-mag.

So nobody want's Ferrari's when they can buy a Fiat (or Japanse imports) that are just as fast huh? The fiat will get me to work just as quick, carry my luggage (which the Ferrari might not ) so why go for one over the other?

Why buy a Purdy? over a browning?

Exclusivity and rarity have value. I don't care if you can't afford it or don't want to wait. This product isn't currently for people like that.

Just the fact it's known to the market is a good thing for AGD.

Other than here at the 'fanclub' do you know how people react and what happens when you talk about mags? The X-mag is changing that, and it's changing opinions of people who will never own or have one. But ultimately that's good for AGD and their long term future. Heck I'd say it's vital.

You think the sales of Lexus don't have knock on benefits to Toyota's? You think Audi sales doesn't have an effect on VW sales?

So many people with so much more to know and learn. Very few people here really know what is going on at AGD and AGDE.

First off

Toyota doesn't produce Lexuses at the cost of Camerys; they know where their bread is buttered. Are there waiting lists for a 550 Modena? Sure. Are their waiting lists for a Fiat? Absolutly not, you just go to the dealer and drive it home. Top-end models get people in the door, but the tactic only works when you have the minivan on the lot and ready to sell after the customer is finished drooling over the sports car. Your analogy is sperious, sir. This isn't an issue of the value of the X-mag (that is a whole other discussion), this is an issue of AGD's inability to deliver a variety of products that its market is hungery for.

Re: First off

Originally posted by ddinwdc Toyota doesn't produce Lexuses at the cost of Camerys; they know where their bread is buttered. Are there waiting lists for a 550 Modena? Sure. Are their waiting lists for a Fiat? Absolutly not. Top-end models get people in the door, but the tactic only works when you have the minivan on the lot and ready to sell to the customer after they are finished drooling over the sports car.

You just proved my point perfectly. Thanks

X-mag which is more expensive and waiting list = Get's em in the door.

E-mag and normal mags which are cheaper and available = get sold.

Thanks for such a great reply to prove what I am saying! If only now you could read what you wrote and understand it...

I'll give you a break since you're British

and don't know what is going on here in the States. Yes, the Emag is available, but you know what? THAT ISNT WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT! We are talking about AGD's new line of products like the ULE body. Sold out in less than a day and has been out of stock ever since. When are they going to be back in stock? Who knows? I've heard two weeks, which, coming from AGD, could mean two months, five months, etc. I think I clearly implied AGD's lack of stocked product in my (more appropriate) analogy. Perhaps a few remedial reading comprehension courses would do YOU some good.

I'll give you a break since you obviously don't know what you are talking about or that the discussion here started out about the X-mag. (see the thread topic, or maybe take some of the remedial reading classes you seem to know so much about).

Also swearing and cussing at me really won't help the points you are trying to make.

Re: I'll give you a break since you're British

You have finally proven yourself to be the troll we all think you are...

Manike is the guy who actually came up with the Xmag body. He came up with the Parameters for the milling program. He is also one of the most respected members on AO. If there's ANYBODY you listen to on AO outside of the AGD staff, it's Simon. He said it last night, along with Tom. There are 3 people who know about Xmag construction- Tom, John Sosta from AGD-E and himself(Manike).

Secondly, It's math time. Tom produced about 150 ULE bodies in the first batch. We have 11,000+ AO members that knew about them. Somehow, I don't think that works out... You have to understand that AGD doesn't have the capital to just make TONS of items that may or may not sell. Thats why things are done in batches. Like the Xmags. Like the X-Valves. Like the ULE items. If they invest TONS of money in them and they don't sell, Tom's stuck with inventory that won't move. He loses money. He loses too much $, say goodbye to AGD.

As for your Intelliframe question- if you're really interested, PBX has two blade black ones in stock. I'll be happy to pass you on to them.

Lastly, you do not add anything positive to the conversation, nor to your general surroundings. When you can string together two coherent and intelligent thoughts, let me know. We'll throw you a party. (I won't hold my breath though.)

Originally posted by ddinwdc and don't know what is going on here in the States. Yes, the Emag is available, but you know what? THAT ISNT WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT! We are talking about AGD's new line of products like the ULE body. Sold out in less than a day and has been out of stock ever since. When are they going to be back in stock? Who knows? I've heard two weeks, which, coming from AGD, could mean two months, five months, etc. Black intellis? Sold out. When are they back in stock? X-valves? I think I clearly implied AGD's lack of stocked product in my (more appropriate) analogy. Perhaps a few remedial reading comprehension courses would do YOU some good.

Home schooling....

Please sit down and get comfortable while I tell you why the X-mag affects the ULE.

First, the ULE would never have happened if it wasn't for AGDE and the X-mag.

The importance and need for aluminium bodies to save weight, that could be milled and customised via anno, was the whole idea and concept from AGDE. I was part of one of the first ever discussions with AGD about how this should be done... oh 6 years ago? when on a visit to AGD with John Sosta. It was AGDE making the X-mag that kick started AGD into doing the ULE bodies so others could upgrade and have a 'cheaper and more accessible version'. You will be interested to know that John Sosta was also the first to start cutting rails and bodies down to make the guns as small and light as possible. John is an avid tourny player in Europe and he in conjunction with John Bonich (and I daren't forget Jackie) are responsible for a lot of the development guidance of the AGD product range.

The X-mag showed the potential of such concepts and AGD has now developed it down to a product which is available to all.

People come in the door because they see the very stylish (yeah I'm biased ) X-mag. And some can wait and afford one, but many can not and so decide to get an e-mag, or decide to buy ULE parts, or whatever but at least they are being exposed to AGD again. They were never in a position to buy an X-mag, but because of it's image and reputation amongst those that can, they are instead buying other products from the same company.

It's very much like formula 1 racing. You will never go that fast, you will never afford a car, but due to it happening and people seeing new ideas and concepts, your car becomes lighter and more economical with nice features such as paddle shift etc.

Dayspring, I'm not going to take credit where it's not due, I didn't come up with the X-mag body (in terms of the original one) I 'just' did the 3d modelling, C&C body design and milling.

I never EVER designed the C&C body to be as successful as it has been. It was supposed to be a 'limited edition'!

I designed it to get attention back to AGD and their products, and oh my god has it done exactly what I intended and more. I regularly get people telling me how much they like it. Look at all this talk about it! It's getting attention. AGD is being noticed, now they just have to keep that attention and use it to sell products.

If I'd designed it for mass production and huge numbers so every one could have one... I'd of designed it differently.

ddinwdc, you are going to hate my next gun... there are only 5 of them being made EVER... and they are already taken but it will put another marker in the ground for what is possible and what may be more common in the future...