Don't you dare, ANet! [slight patch spoiler]

Just started playing today's patch and this is the second dialog I saw. Maybe it will get clarified later, but if this turns out to be another chapter of Trahearne's story, I feel that a good portion of the playerbase will be alienated to the point of no return...

On the other hand, maybe he gets killed before we get to him

Again, I haven't completed this portion of living story, so I may edit this post once I've played through it.

Just started playing today's patch and this is the second dialog I saw. Maybe it will get clarified later, but if this turns out to be another chapter of Trahearne's story, I feel that a good portion of the playerbase will be alienated to the point of no return...

On the other hand, maybe he gets killed before we get to him

Again, I haven't completed this portion of living story, so I may edit this post once I've played through it.

Well seeing as how Trehearne is the leader of the pact and they get attacked in this episode it makes sense that he would get involved. I don't see him having a huge part to play as he is vulnerable to this dragons corruption.

And personally I feel all the rage thrown at him is overblown and unfounded. Every GW game has a character like him. Rurik, Togo, Kormir, Ogden just to name a few of the mains.

Why the shock and anger over Anets well entrenched plot devices confuzzles me honestly. Did you REALLY expect to be "THE HERO"? we the players have NEVER been the hero in any GW game, the story has always been about someone else. That is how its always been and it works well for the lore writers.

Well seeing as how Trehearne is the leader of the pact and they get attacked in this episode it makes sense that he would get involved. I don't see him having a huge part to play as he is vulnerable to this dragons corruption.

And personally I feel all the rage thrown at him is overblown and unfounded. Every GW game has a character like him. Rurik, Togo, Kormir, Ogden just to name a few of the mains.

Why the shock and anger over Anets well entrenched plot devices confuzzles me honestly. Did you REALLY expect to be "THE HERO"? we the players have NEVER been the hero in any GW game, the story has always been about someone else. That is how its always been and it works well for the lore writers.

Trahearne is more egregrious a writing mistake than any of the other examples you listed. He is the archetypal Gary Stu because he hijacks your story and also is never allowed to fail. The second part is important. Every one else got some humbling through their story, Rurik died and got turned into a revenant, Togo got murderated, Kormir got her eyes plucked out for her hubris and Ogden really isn't even in the same category, he's a side character and a source of dwarf flavored comic relief at times. Meanwhile, Trahearne gets a sword of destiny from his mom after some other guy lost it, he gets to lead the Pact without any major setbacks along the way, and he finishes his epic quest and leaves you to clean up the mess. Not cool.

The overall personal story was rushed to begin with. The way Trahearne gets to his position and your character's rise is probably the same. I wouldn't be too hard on the character. He is pretty stereotypical "knight in shining armor" , but that doesn't necessarily mean he is bad.
I am mostly happy that the pact gets involved, is MAKES SENSE. It was silly enough that they would ignore the destruction of Lion's Arch since we tried to hard to defend it and if they ignored another dragon that would have been really stupid. I only hope for better pacing.

On topic: Secretly, I do hope to get rid of Trahearne in some way and take over the Pact as its leader, however... what exactly would I do with my new found rank? Turn GW2 into a RTS game? Sign tons of paperwork necessary to mobilize troops and request resources? Whatever the case, it does seem to point in the direction that SOMETHING is going to happen to him and it wouldn't be the first time that ANet makes one of their "wind-bag" character meet a tragic end.

Trahearne is more egregrious a writing mistake than any of the other examples you listed. He is the archetypal Gary Stu because he hijacks your story and also is never allowed to fail. The second part is important. Every one else got some humbling through their story, Rurik died and got turned into a revenant, Togo got murderated, Kormir got her eyes plucked out for her hubris and Ogden really isn't even in the same category, he's a side character and a source of dwarf flavored comic relief at times. Meanwhile, Trahearne gets a sword of destiny from his mom after some other guy lost it, he gets to lead the Pact without any major setbacks along the way, and he finishes his epic quest and leaves you to clean up the mess. Not cool.

First of all, it wasn't Rurik or Togo that took the hero's spotlight in Prophecies and Factions, it was Mhenlo & co.. Secondly, Ogden was a hero, albeit not the only hero. Just like in Prophecies, the player character's deeds are passed on to multiple people (Livia, Gwen, Ogden, etc.). Lastly, the story isn't anywhere near finished. If you expect some super humbling event (which never really happened to Mhenlo & co., besides his teacher dying) to happen to Trahearne not even 1/6th through the story then I'm not sure what to tell you. Kormir didn't experience a "humbling event" until at least halfway through the storyline.

First of all, it wasn't Rurik or Togo that took the hero's spotlight in Prophecies and Factions, it was Mhenlo & co.. Secondly, Ogden was a hero, albeit not the only hero. Just like in Prophecies, the player character's deeds are passed on to multiple people (Livia, Gwen, Ogden, etc.). Lastly, the story isn't anywhere near finished. If you expect some super humbling event (which never really happened to Mhenlo & co., besides his teacher dying) to happen to Trahearne not even 1/6th through the story then I'm not sure what to tell you. Kormir didn't experience a "humbling event" until at least halfway through the storyline.

Hmmm, no. These characters your character meets in the journey. Mhenlo is a rep for the Dwarves, Vekk for the Asura, Jora for the Norn, Gwen for the humans, and Pyre for the Charr. They existed only to move the plot along, and to provide heroes to help you in your quest. While Mhenlo and Togo were a large part of the story, they didn't take anything from the focus of the storyline...which is you. Even if your story were just that of a fighter, it still needs to feel like you are playing as the main character, whoever is in charge. To put a character like Trahearn, someone whose first action is to butt in and become the leader of a military group...despite the fact that you have had more fighting experience in a day than this artichoke had all his life...and make you his flunkie...and THEN to take credit for everything you do up till, after YOU do the heavy lifting getting to the source, he sticks the Twig-of-a-Thousand-Truths into the source...
Well, that is just a writer of the game thinking about the story, and forgetting about the fact that the PLAYER is why the game even exists.

People hate Trahearn for this reason alone. A lot of us never do the PS after the first character, just because we have to deal with seeing his ass again. No...thank...you! Now, just when the story gets on a role, Kasmeer shoves his Caesar salad-wearing ass into the mix, after the fact he pretty much said he was done after healing the Source in Orr...yeah. The only way it will work is if, like a lot of people said, he turns into an evil bugger, and we get to kill him. Hmmm, maybe he stuck that sword in the Source, which is connected to the leylines. He gets corrupted by Morodreth in the process, and is actually an agent of the dragon. THAT would be awesome. Just as long as I get to kill him. That would give me more satisfaction than when we got to kill undead Rurik(screw that spoiler BS. It's been out ten years).

To be honest, I didn't dislike Trahearne because he apparently took my spotlight. A good story doesn't need you to be in the spotlight all the time (that being said, GW2 PS isn't a story but a piece of crap). I disliked him because he was written very very poorly. The way he acted didn't match at all with his reputation and what he did with the pact. The way he formed sentences was inconsistent in itself. And the poor voice-acting didn't help either but strenghtened the whole picture of him being poorly written.

To be honest, I didn't dislike Trahearne because he apparently took my spotlight. A good story doesn't need you to be in the spotlight all the time (that being said, GW2 PS isn't a story but a piece of crap). I disliked him because he was written very very poorly. The way he acted didn't match at all with his reputation and what he did with the pact. The way he formed sentences was inconsistent in itself. And the poor voice-acting didn't help either but strenghtened the whole picture of him being poorly written.

I've mentioned this before in threads where I talk incessantly about the PS. I absolutely think a good *personal* story should be about you. You don't have to be the most important person in the world but you should be important to the story as it unfolds. The issue with Trahearne is that once he comes in, everything important that could have been done through your perspective is done through him no matter how implausible it might be, as you've noticed yourself. Why does he become the leader of the Pact? Iunno, he was just there. And I guess he knew everybody in every order and everybody likes him even though none of them mention him at all up until Claw Island except for a few sylvari. And I could go on but I would be repeating myself again. It is as you say bad writing, especially for an interactive game narrative.

The new season and the new episode actually is swinging the focus back to you, however. I'm not going to give spoilers since it's only been a day but while the B Iconics have their own characterizations and personal things happening to them, the main plot is being moved forward by you and you are acknowledged as the leader of this crew and An Important Pact Representative after all. Finally. Maybe we'll go dragon slaying and actually get the credit this time.

I agree with Miragee. Trahearne's spotlight steeling is not the worst part of the character. The fact that he has as much dynamism as Marvin the Robot and the line delivery to match takes that prize.

Although McB is also right, and my character should be the center of my personal story. I don't need to be "the one", but it'd be nice if I had the primary agency in the plotline.

Let the multicultural coalition (Destiny's Edge, or DE 2.0 in the living story) be the saviors of the world, but make my character have an interesting story that runs parallel while periodically intersecting with theirs.

I find the current interaction with DE 2.0 to be a little off-putting as well. I'm clearly not part of their group, and yet they sometimes talk as if I'm the leader who should make decisions for them. The story isn't doing a very good job of clearly presenting my relationship with them.

Look at LotrO, for example. It's obvious you will never be "the one" in that game. However, the world is deep enough with lore, and your progress is unique enough to your character, that it compels you further into the story. There's no moment where you feel like others are looking at you when you speak and thinking, "Who the f#$k is this guy?" The writing and plot is consistent. Of course, they had the best source material you could ask for; however, they manage to let you feel like your story, while not a part of the Fellowship, is still the main story of the GAME.

This, on the other hand, is starting to just feel like someone is writing, and started getting into one of the other characters so much, they forgot the main character in the story...you.

I definitely think there is some historical revisionism going on here for the purpose of trashing Trahearne as much as possible.

Don't forget that his Wyld Hunt involved cleansing Orr of the corruption of Zhaitan. He was never intending to get rid of Zhaitan (though he would help if he could). That was your (ours, rather) job. We killed Zhaitan and got the credit. After the "The Source of Orr" part of our PS, when Trahearne purified the source of Orr, he peaced out and went back to Fort Trinity. His job was done. We went on to slay the dragon. I really don't see how he "stole the spotlight" at all. His job is done as far as the Elder Dragons are concerned (I may eat my words though!)

As for Kasmeer's comment, she was merely speculating (she said "probably"), so it's not like this is a definitive indication that Trahearne is going to mobilize and be at the centre of the Mordremoth effort. On the other hand, he is still a key figure in the lore and cannot simply disappear, so it is likely that he will serve some role, especially since the Pale Tree seems to be featuring prominently and Trahearne is intimately connected to the Pale Tree (being born of it, received instructions from it, etc.)

In the end, we'll see what happens, I doubt Trahearne will disappear, but I also doubt he will be the "leader" again and just repeat the personal story once more - for one thing, that would be repetitive and a basic storytelling mistake.

I definitely think there is some historical revisionism going on here for the purpose of trashing Trahearne as much as possible.

Don't forget that his Wyld Hunt involved cleansing Orr of the corruption of Zhaitan. He was never intending to get rid of Zhaitan (though he would help if he could). That was your (ours, rather) job. We killed Zhaitan and got the credit. After the "The Source of Orr" part of our PS, when Trahearne purified the source of Orr, he peaced out and went back to Fort Trinity. His job was done. We went on to slay the dragon. I really don't see how he "stole the spotlight" at all. His job is done as far as the Elder Dragons are concerned (I may eat my words though!)

If you were a sylvari alt, sure, your Wyld Hunt being to face down the dragon makes sense because they establish it from the start and yes, Trahearne doesn't take that away from you. I just really thought it was odd that no matter what your race was, he thought the only way for you to learn about your epic destiny was to go to the Pale Tree when the point of that entire story episode was to hear about his own epic destiny instead of yours. You already knew you were gearing up to fight Zhaitan simply by committing to one of the orders of Tyria dedicated to fighting him. It would have been much more flavorful and less abruptly Sylvari and Trahearne-centric for your call to arms to have come from your own race in some fashion. Maybe humans get a final echo from their six gods asking them to cleanse the Orr homeland. Maybe the norn convene in a giant moot to settle the issue of who will be The Great Hunter of Dragons. Maybe Asurans have a technomaturgical debate forum with Professor Gorr as a keynote speaker in addressing the magic loss environmental issue. Maybe Charr have the high legions come together in a tribunal to argue out whether they should help against a dragon that has mostly been affecting human lands and not them. Maybe but instead, we visit the Mother Tree, Trahearne learns that he has to nut up, take his mom's sword and lead everyone to Arah and victory. His story could have been alongside yours in a less obtrusive way if the revelation of your destiny wasn't attached at the hip to his.

Lettuce head was an empty character, which is really what makes people not like him. It isn't that he takes the spotlight, that happens all the time in MMOs and should be expected. I don't remember hearing people complain about the Mhenlo, Cynn, Eve, and friends.

The issue is that your character worked with them in GW1. The game was all about being part of a team. Since the missions had multiple people, the story was written for a group, not a single person. You couldn't be the main hero, just one of a group. We effectively were the DE of GW1. On top of that, Mhenlo and friends had character. I still remember when you first hop over to Cantha and Cynn finds out about Mhelno's old friends and she gets all upset because someone might be taking her man. Eve was always talking to Adam. She was creepy. And I will never forget Devona's "Idiot, meet hammer. Hammer, idiot."

Playing with fleshed out characters is fine. Even if you play second fiddle to them (you don't play second fiddle to any of the NPCs in GW1 excluding Kormir at the very end and we all know how that was received) you play a duet with them. Playing with a walking stick that never does anything and just seems to have everything go his way (usually due to your actions) just sucks. He has no flaws other than not believing in himself, but that flaw doesn't have any impact on his accomplishments at all and he never grows. He starts as a stick in the mud, and ends as a stick in the mud. Trahearne's character writing suffers from bathos. Anet overshot the attempt to describe who he is and how things worked out in the PS and ended up creating a character that people find ridiculous.

Frankly, if he turns out to be the lynchpin in destroying all the dragons that will be utterly ridiculous. Will he be involved? Yes, how could he not be? Does it make sense for the same group/method used to defeat the first dragon would beat the second? No. That makes for a boring story. Nothing interesting comes of it.

I read that as Kasmeer's belief in Trahearne's accomplishments and a naive trust that the same methods will work again. It makes sense for her to feel that way in the story, but I wouldn't read it as a prediction of how it will progress. I think it is more likely that he develops a sense of pride and falls due to hubris than he is the solution to this new threat. Hubris being a common literary tool that Anet have liked to use over and over again in the past. It also would be a good way to create tension or "second hook" in the story.

Edited by Feathermoore, 19 July 2014 - 11:02 AM.

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If you were a sylvari alt, sure, your Wyld Hunt being to face down the dragon makes sense because they establish it from the start and yes, Trahearne doesn't take that away from you. I just really thought it was odd that no matter what your race was, he thought the only way for you to learn about your epic destiny was to go to the Pale Tree when the point of that entire story episode was to hear about his own epic destiny instead of yours. You already knew you were gearing up to fight Zhaitan simply by committing to one of the orders of Tyria dedicated to fighting him. It would have been much more flavorful and less abruptly Sylvari and Trahearne-centric for your call to arms to have come from your own race in some fashion. Maybe humans get a final echo from their six gods asking them to cleanse the Orr homeland. Maybe the norn convene in a giant moot to settle the issue of who will be The Great Hunter of Dragons. Maybe Asurans have a technomaturgical debate forum with Professor Gorr as a keynote speaker in addressing the magic loss environmental issue. Maybe Charr have the high legions come together in a tribunal to argue out whether they should help against a dragon that has mostly been affecting human lands and not them. Maybe but instead, we visit the Mother Tree, Trahearne learns that he has to nut up, take his mom's sword and lead everyone to Arah and victory. His story could have been alongside yours in a less obtrusive way if the revelation of your destiny wasn't attached at the hip to his.

Being called up into one of the Orders leads directly into the Pact and a concerted, unified effort to fight Zhaitan. At that point, it's natural to want to consult some "sage" - a common fantasy trope. Why not the Pale Tree? I don't understand why that is "less" flavourful, unless you're implicitly implying that the Sylvari themselves are not flavourful (and thus expressing dislike at their existence). Trahearne is Sylvari and it's natural for him to consult the Pale Tree. Precisely because we are also crucial to the story, it is natural for us to go as well and see what the Pale Tree has to say.

The other options you listed seem out of place - the human gods are gone (some say transformed into the dragons, if you've been reading the whacky ideas floating around out there), the Norn are almost entirely focussed against Jormag (and better play a dominant role once that bad boy wakes up), and the Asura couldn't care less about bookah.

I really don't see a problem with consulting the Pale Tree. Sure, she [he/it?] is tied up with Trahearne because he was chosen by ArenaNet to play that particular role in the story, but I wonder if it was another character (or race), such as Eir let's say, whether we'd be seeing so much dislike.

Feathermoore, on 19 July 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

Lettuce head was an empty character, which is really what makes people not like him. It isn't that he takes the spotlight, that happens all the time in MMOs and should be expected. I don't remember hearing people complain about the Mhenlo, Cynn, Eve, and friends.

The issue is that your character worked with them in GW1. The game was all about being part of a team. Since the missions had multiple people, the story was written for a group, not a single person. You couldn't be the main hero, just one of a group. We effectively were the DE of GW1. On top of that, Mhenlo and friends had character. I still remember when you first hop over to Cantha and Cynn finds out about Mhelno's old friends and she gets all upset because someone might be taking her man. Eve was always talking to Adam. She was creepy. And I will never forget Devona's "Idiot, meet hammer. Hammer, idiot."

Playing with fleshed out characters is fine. Even if you play second fiddle to them (you don't play second fiddle to any of the NPCs in GW1 excluding Kormir at the very end and we all know how that was received) you play a duet with them. Playing with a walking stick that never does anything and just seems to have everything go his way (usually due to your actions) just sucks. He has no flaws other than not believing in himself, but that flaw doesn't have any impact on his accomplishments at all and he never grows. He starts as a stick in the mud, and ends as a stick in the mud. Trahearne's character writing suffers from bathos. Anet overshot the attempt to describe who he is and how things worked out in the PS and ended up creating a character that people find ridiculous.

Frankly, if he turns out to be the lynchpin in destroying all the dragons that will be utterly ridiculous. Will he be involved? Yes, how could he not be? Does it make sense for the same group/method used to defeat the first dragon would beat the second? No. That makes for a boring story. Nothing interesting comes of it.

I read that as Kasmeer's belief in Trahearne's accomplishments and a naive trust that the same methods will work again. It makes sense for her to feel that way in the story, but I wouldn't read it as a prediction of how it will progress. I think it is more likely that he develops a sense of pride and falls due to hubris than he is the solution to this new threat. Hubris being a common literary tool that Anet have liked to use over and over again in the past. It also would be a good way to create tension or "second hook" in the story.

As silly as it may sound (since we are potentially getting into other issues), I have to say that comments such as "lettuce head" - and there have been many along those lines here and on other forums - are more revealing regarding why people "hate" Trahearne than any other arguments. For example, I thought that Mhenlo, Cynn, et al., were just as awkwardly and artificially important in GW1 as any and all supporting characters in GW2 now (Destiny's Edge 2.0 cast of Rox et al.). Seems to be a general issue of ArenaNet writing and/or this kind of storytelling. The contrast you brought up was confusing for me and I had to think hard to see how it would apply. If anything, there are far more characters involved in the fight against Zhaitan, even the lowly Pact commanders you would meet along the way in Orr and so on, had a nice contribution in discussing supply routes and so on. In GW1, it was Mhenlo and co and that's it. All the other NPCs were pretty useless. Singling out Trahearne in this vast array of supporting characters in GW2 seems quite odd to me.

I personally found Trahearne to be likeable as he was flawed, would express doubts, and was noble. They really nailed down a "good leader" in him. Sure, he may have seemed aloof a bit - and consequently make you feel more of a "sidekick" - but that dovetailed well with the story. In fact, his devotedness and focus on his Wyld Hunt and the mission to cleanse Orr (and Tyria) of Zhaitan were admirable and inspiring qualities.

Oddly, the more I think about Trahearne the more I suspect that the reason some people in the player community don't like him may be due to a combination of the fact that he's Sylvari and the fact that he was so dedicated, which thus made us unwittingly feel that we were being left out somehow (even though we were crucially involved in the Pact, and were right up there with Trahearne at the highest levels of leadership, let alone leading the final charge against Zhaitan).

I like your interpretation of Kasmeer's comment, though I don't think it's consistent that Trahearne has a fall from grace since he seems to be very level-headed, and ArenaNet probably realizes this, which may be partly why Mordremoth is the next dragon we have to deal with, since he is so proximally situated to the Pale Tree, both in terms of physical location and the nature of his threat - corrupting plants, etc. So that leaves a hook for the Pale Tree and/or Trahearne to become affected in some way - maybe not out-and-out corrupted but at least incapacitated.

Honestly, at this point I fear that Trahearne is the "Jar Jar Binks" of GW2 and for no solid reason other than the fact that he's an unconventional hero (and dare I say, Sylvari). Derogatory labels like "lettuce head" kind of sums it up.

Being called up into one of the Orders leads directly into the Pact and a concerted, unified effort to fight Zhaitan. At that point, it's natural to want to consult some "sage" - a common fantasy trope. Why not the Pale Tree? I don't understand why that is "less" flavourful, unless you're implicitly implying that the Sylvari themselves are not flavourful (and thus expressing dislike at their existence). Trahearne is Sylvari and it's natural for him to consult the Pale Tree. Precisely because we are also crucial to the story, it is natural for us to go as well and see what the Pale Tree has to say.

Why does it have to be a Sylvari sage when if you've been playing as any other race other than Sylvari, you've never been given any idea how important the Mother Tree is or even have any idea who Trahearne is up until Claw Island. It's an abrupt switch from what was up until then a multicultural coalition of races to one singular viewpoint, one that is hard to appreciate because there is no context for it.

The suggestions I made don't necessarily have to be the way things should go for each race, I just think it would have made more sense for there to be many viewpoints on how to approach fighting the dragons as a heroic destiny. If you are a Sylvari alt, then yes, the Mother Tree's viewpoint is valid to the extreme, she's your mother and you woke up from your dream with the desire to fight the dragon. But as a human, norn, charr or asuran, her perspective is alien and the only reason you went to see her is to see Trahearne pick up his own motivation rather than confirming yours.

It might be an issue of the Sylvari not being very well integrated (or maybe too well integrated) with the other races. They are all over the place but they don't really assert their native culture wherever they are. They're almost offbrand humans in their generic-ness whereas norn, asurans and charr have distinct cultural differences that show whenever they appear.

Feathermoore said:

Playing with fleshed out characters is fine. Even if you play second fiddle to them (you don't play second fiddle to any of the NPCs in GW1 excluding Kormir at the very end and we all know how that was received) you play a duet with them. Playing with a walking stick that never does anything and just seems to have everything go his way (usually due to your actions) just sucks. He has no flaws other than not believing in himself, but that flaw doesn't have any impact on his accomplishments at all and he never grows. He starts as a stick in the mud, and ends as a stick in the mud. Trahearne's character writing suffers from bathos. Anet overshot the attempt to describe who he is and how things worked out in the PS and ended up creating a character that people find ridiculous.

That is the textbook definition of a fanfiction Gary Stu. Somebody who is suddenly inserted into the narrative, seems to know everyone and be well liked by everyone not because of his actions, but by simply being there. He can have a superficial flaw as you've mentioned, but generally that flaw doesn't get in the way of everything going right for him because he is the author's pet. They really wanted to make him the linchpin of the story and there's no satisfying impetus because nobody cares about a guy who is functionally perfect and can do no wrong. What little drama there was in the second half of PS came from your personal failures, not his. You had to deal with all the setbacks such as at Kitah Manse and again, I have to bring up that mesmer plot branch where you end up mortaring a Pact legion by mistake and it turns out the only reason Zhaitan sent a mesmer to screw with you was because you were a roadblock to his real target Trahearne. In the aftermath dialogue, Trahearne talks about how we all make mistakes but they can be mitigated. What mistakes has he made at all in the story? I can't think of any. Who is he to preach at me about fixing my mistakes?

I don't dislike Trehearne, but I don't think enough has been done for me to actually care about him, and even other important sylvari like Caithe and Faolain. Much of what we know about these lead sylvari characters is mostly skin deep.

We've probably gotten to know Ceara/Scarlet the most. Caithe and Faolain are next but they're also busy keeping secrets, and Trehearne has little background beyond "Orr researcher". Most of his character development is post-Pale Tree visit.

To be honest, I thought Canach was going to assume the sylvari roll in the biconic's group, but apparently he hasn't been invited yet.

Edited by Archaes, 19 July 2014 - 11:50 PM.

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