Selkie 825

This scene has gone through so many iterations it's insane. In the cruelest version, a version which probably borders on character-breaking in it's awfulness, Mari wrapped up the urn as a gift, with paper and bow and everything, and gave it to Andi during the gift exchange in front of everyone.

Interestingly, every discarded variation has a common reason for not being used: I just can't see a feasible scenario where Mari would give Andi the urn or have this conversation in front of the girls.

Discussion (157) ¬

She didn’t know if she’d ever find Amanda again, after all was said & done (and probably didn’t even think about trying for a long while, just because of how convinced she was that her mom was right in this course of action). Now, since doing the research & looking in on Amanda (and finding out she was still in the system) she should have told them, but without Amanda there, there wouldn’t be any “proof”, and it might have made the whole relationship even more strained than it has become. It’s like leaving a bandage on way too long: you know you should take it off/come clean, but imyou know its going to hurt, and probably reopen the wound. But, the longer you wait, the worse it’ll be (as we’ve seen) but that fear of things changing/getting worse forces you into inaction, effectively causing what you hope to avoid.

Plus, some people just have trouble voicing really heavy stuff (I know I’ve had more than my share of times where talk would get REAL and I physically wouldn’t be able to speak)

Given the whole “Andi’s Mom” factor in everything, I want to give her the benefit of the doubt, and see how she progresses/try’s to make things right.

My two cents on this. Andi doesn’t have any morality that’s really been displayed. She’s been incredibly manipulative and cruel without ever a word of apology except in the cases of emotional assaults on her, at least as far as I can remember. This ends up making it look like she isn’t sorry about the actions or the impacts they’ve had on anyone but herself. Even inviting herself along she chose to use Amanda as a bargaining chip for it rather then own up and say “yeah I fucked up and assumed something I shouldn’t have.” Everything I’ve seen of her says she has never grown up herself and this is looking like it’s just going to repeat that issue. She’s going to apologize now because she’s being hit with the consequences, and whether she’s actually sorry or not will remain a mystery but as much as I’d like to believe Andi was a decent person, nothing of what I’ve seen says she is.

All that said, the story is wonderful “The essence of drama is conflict” after all. I look forward to seeing how this all plays out, current hope being Todd gets full custody of both girls when Andi has to deal with the usual “check that the child is in good hands” procedures.

I think many people forget that Andi was only seventeen or so when Amanda was given up. Human brains aren’t even considered fully capable of functioning until around 25-years-old or so. Even then it takes a long time for someone who was abused and emotionally manipulated to truly mature.

So if Amanda is eight now, and Andi was seventeen when she was born, that would make Andi around 25 now – she’s just really fully matured and can wholly see and understand the consequences of her actions. She’s done rotten things, no doubt. Yet it’s entirely possible that she means well, and intends to change, and truly regrets what she did. But she doesn’t know how to grow.

And she won’t know without a loving, supportive environment (which she’s not getting at all from her mother!) to not only grow but be able to give that love support to Amanda herself. Without other people to teach Andi better, she’s very much at risk of treating Amanda like her mother treated her.

So sure, it’s probably partially from some selfish ends that she’s manipulating… but Andi is trying. She’s seeking out the support and love from people she RESPECTS and feels bad for lying to them. It doesn’t change that what she did was terrible, but without that support group (which is her child’s family!) and trying nothing will ever get better.

First, I see no evidence that Andi has fully matured given some of the crap she is still pulling.

Second, as was pointed out to me below (I hadn’t caught it) she has never, on screen at least, apologized to Todd’s family for what she did. She KINDA apologized to Todd. I wouldn’t call that trying. I experienced a similar (albeit MUCH less dramatic) situation myself recently where after telling another person that their actions had been improper and disrespectful they proceeded to go on and on and on about how they understood and they were under pressure, etc. etc. it wasn’t until 30 minutes in to the discussion they bothered to, you know, say they were SORRY for what they did. It’s not convincing that you are sorry and trying to make amends when you can’t even do the basic stuff.

This is a really well thought out comment. I think you’re right on all aspects. Andi never matured and is trying to on her own now, but it’s difficult to do alone. She did terrible things, but she was a child with a poor role model. Her actions can be explained, but not excused. And I’m not sure any of us would fair better at her age, nor would we have the guts to fess up to the lie. It’s easy to point fingers and claim we’d do better in someone else’s situation, but when it comes down to it… would we really? Could we really be able to risk losing someone we loved by telling them the horrid mistake we made? Could we deal with the pain it’d cause them? The backlash we’d receive for it? Could we overcome our own fear and have the courage to do the right thing at 17? I’m not sure I could, at least not so easily.

People are creatures with self preservation in mind, we are selfish creatures by nature. Even Todd does things in a self satisfying way in a less than conscious way. It’s how we are, some more so than others. Everyone wants to feel loved and just in their actions. No one wants to fave their fears or tough situations, some just handle it way better than others. It’s hard for a lot of people. Andi is one of those people. She is indeed a coward and manipulative in a way I assume isn’t a conscious action. She’s also very immature in a sense that she’s never really had anyone tell her how to be a proper adult. She said herself she knows no one outside of Todd and his family essentially.

She doesn’t know how to leave her comfort zone and I assume she’s a tad socially inept at making new friends. She needs to grow a vast amount.

I totally agree. I grew up in a very dysfunctional home and I am still a work in progress at the ripe old age of 70. Andi’s mom told her that she was a burden and indicated that Andi was unwanted, which would have a deleterious effect on Andi’s self-esteem. It is sad to see Andi call herself a horrible person, instead of realizing she is not a bad person, but a person who made a bad choice and was afraid to tell the truth. From my own life, people who believe that they are garbage find it very difficult to tell the truth for fear of being disliked. And by truth, I mean being afraid of stating basic needs, such as being afraid to say “I need a drink of water.” People who were not loved and accepted by their parents have a difficult time growing up and changing, until they realize they are not human abominations…that the wrong things they’ve done does not mean that they are garbage. I am seeing growth in Andi. I am not at all interested in the constant bashing of her character and am very excited to see how she continues to grow. I believe in people’s ability to transform themselves, but it’s only possible with love, honesty, and acceptance.

For all her faults Andi has not been shown to be a bad parent yet, certainly nothing that would warrant her losing custody of Amanda so far. Todd could probably get partial custody if it comes to that but there is no reason why Andi should loose hers.

On its own, no, but um yeah the first one is ALSO about Amanda, a very big part about Amanda as she went into the adoption system rather than her father and his family. Setting aside the fact that Andi probably broke the law by doing that, it shows a major example of her bad judgement.

In the U.S. it is. If the paternity of the father is known (and its easily established that it was) legally she would be required to get Todd to agree to the adoption. In order to get them to agree to the adoption she would have A) told the hospital that she didn’t know the father so it wasn’t on the birth certificate B) told the relevant authorities that the father wasn’t in the picture. Had he found out at or close to the time Todd could easily have proven otherwise which would mean that Andi broke the law.

Actually that’s what made it harder. It looks like between flight-flight-freeze, Andi’s natural reaction is freeze, so the easiest way for her to solve terrifying problem is to do nothing and hope they go away. And the worse the problem is, the harder it is to break through the protective wall that lets you function day to day without comtemplating how awful a person you are. And of course the more time passes without you confronting the problem the more it confounds it, and…

Kinda saw the urn coming (as I think just about everyone else did) but man, just sitting there, like a slap in the face.

At least now there’ll be a bit more openness with how everything came to be (since it hasn’t looked like there’s been an opportunity, or a willingness to make an opportunity for Andi to get the whole story [her mom] out to any of the Smiths). I could very easily see Mari’s ire towards Andi soften, and we could see a whole new level of angry grandma towards Andi’s mother (who, from the flashbacks, appeared to railroad the whole situation/”plan” on Andi)

I think they’re genuine. Andi is upset. But not for the reason she should be. She’s crying over the fact that Mari, Theo, and Todd are still mad at her (as they have every right to be). If she really was upset over how awful she’d been she would’ve told the Smiths a LOT sooner about Amanda.

Agreed. People talk about how immature Andi was when she gave up Amanda. Okay. I don’t think she is any more mature except she has learned to survive away from her mother and try to find and raise Amanda. Why did she have this change of heart? I don’t think it was self-deployed but another survival tactic. She truly felt that to get Amanda back meant she could get her old life back because it was a tie she definitely had to Todd/The Smiths. To me, it is neither purposefully manipulative nor is it all-out cruel in that defining both would mean Andi meant to hurt people in doing so. Do I dislike Andi as a person? Hells, yes! She’s awful! But I still think SHE needs counseling on how her behavior affects others and only then will I start to respect her. NOT before, because as many have pointed out, she is doing the circle thing again… Back around again.

I don’t necessarily think she’s doing a “poor me.” I think she’s asking for help in the only way she knows how.
I think she really does know she messed up, but as you’ve said, she can’t stop doing the circle thing because it’s all she knows. We’ve seen that she’s trying to change in some ways, but she can’t yet get free of the abuse from her mother and the problematic mental patterns yet.
I think she really is trying to take a step in the right direction, in her fumbling way, and I really hope Mari will hear the need behind it, and get her the help that she needs.

I think the biggest problem is, she KNOWS she did a terrible thing, but people keep telling her how terrible she is for it, like she doesn’t already know. So she’s telling them she feels awful and terrible for it. I don’t see it as a, ‘boohoo poor me’ moment, but rather a, ‘yes I know I’m awful for this and you’re mad at me, but why don’t you think I know that?’ kind of moment. Probably because she does a poor job showing it, especially by showing up to their gathering without them wanting her there. Although, I think Theo kind of wants her there. I don’t think the, ‘yes, all three of them’ comment was just a joke used to bother Mari. I think he was tactfully trying to assert the fact that, whether anyone likes it or not, Andi is involved with them forever now, because of Amanda and that they should learn to cope with that.

Andi does a very poor job of coming off as she’s sorry, but than again, they don’t really want to accept her apology so they won’t ever see her as sorry. My ex boyfriend was the same way to me. I was truly sorry for things I hadn’t even done. I cried and said sorry over and over again and asked him what I could do to make him believe me. He utterly refused to think my feelings were genuine, simply because he didn’t want to accept my apology. Why? Perhaps because he knew I hadn’t done the things he had accused me of. Perhaps his own guilt kept him from forgiving someone else. Perhaps he just truly did not think I was sorry. Who knows. The point is, it’s very hard for someone to properly say sorry if the other party involved wants no part of it. And it’s pointlessly self punishing for the one who’s sorry to keep trying to apologize when their apologies won’t ever be acknowledged. It’s not their way to repent, it’s utterly pointless and makes everyone unhappy.

If one is not truly sorry, then don’t apologize or its insulting. Likewise, if the other person is unwilling to forgive, then you’re wasting everyone’s time by trying again and again for something that just won’t bear fruit and reopening old wounds. Live and let go.

No. Just how immature she was to tell Todd the baby was dead. I expect a kid to not be emotionally ready for a baby. And adoption was actually a mature response when she realized she couldn’t handle being a parent. That’s very mature for a kid her age and I applaud that she would consider it.

I think they are genuine, I don’t think Andi did any of this to intentionally inflict harm on the Smiths. However that doesn’t mean she isn’t at fault, her behavior may not have been malicious in intent but it was incredibly selfish and immature. She put her own personal needs ahead of everyone involved to the detriment of Todd, his family and her own daughter. While she couldn’t have known the terrible situation Amanda would end up in, she COULD have known that Amanda would have found a loving family with Todd and his parents and siblings. But to go that route would require essentially giving up Todd, because she certainly couldn’t have stayed with him and NOT been involved in Amanda’s life (which she didn’t want to be).

So yeah, stupid and selifsh and she deserves to be held responsible for it, but I think she would genuinely feel bad about what she’s done. The question is does she recognize and actually work to make some kind of amends or simply feel bad but stays immature and selfish.

I hope they’re genuine. A small part of me wants the lie to have eaten her up inside as well. For the 8 years to have been just as bad for her just so this can be a healing cry. This could be a sign of personal growth and sometimes you just need to cry. It looks like we will be getting more than the Cliff Notes version of her side now as well.

That’s the thing though, she could have come clean any time during that and hasn’t – not even once she reclaimed Amanda – Todd actually “caught” her and had to put things together himself (though to be fair we can assume she did intend to tell him at some point).

I am sure she did and does feel genuinely bad about it, but it’s her own fault, as is the pain she caused others with her actions.

Interestingly this is a common tactic for abusers to employ when confronted with the hurt they are causing their victim. Not calling Andi an abuser, mind, just the manipulative behavior is very similar.

I can’t believe I’m going to defend Andi here but here we go. Maybe, and this is where my mind is starting to turn, she didn’t realize the damage until just now. It’s very possible that until she saw the urn that that’s when it hit and she realized everything. That it’s washing onto her just now and that’s why she’s crying.

I could believe that, and I could also believe this is an escape tactic Andi is using but perhaps without realizing it. Her breakdown is more focused on “woe is me” and “can’t you see how sorry I am??” and not “I am SO FRIKKIN SORRY I HURT YOU GUYS I LOVE YOU!” and I see a big problem in that. Andi simply has no idea how to handle what she’s created. Whether she is manipulating on purpose or not, she is definitely feeling in a corner and this behavior is an immature response which is totally in character with what we’ve seen of Andi so far. I still can’t believe she RAN AWAY from Todd and left Amanda in the aquarium… *shakes head* Just awful…

Where we have an idea and assumption in our head of a character, an idea that is well grounded, reasonable, and justified, then a moment gives us a way to look at the character from a different angle. Not neccesarily root for them, but at least be able to see how they got to that point. I think we’re coming to that with Andi.

not really, due to osmotic pressure, the individual cells will try to equalize the salinity content of the liquid inside the cell vs the surrounding salt water… therefore drying out your cells… the lack of water inside the cell will eventually interfere with the proper functioning of that cell, and if left in that state long enough it’ll DIE… so… ultimately… NO Salt water is NOT good for you…

I’ve always been vocal about my lack of empathy for Andi’s choice to lie to Todd but I don’t believe anyone had the right to call someones emotional reaction ‘Not genuine’. Like how exactly do you decide if someones feelings are genuine? I can understand saying she crying for reasons other then remorse or that she hasn’t acted in any way that makes you feel like she is truly trying to atone for what she did but just saying “That’s not a genuine emotional response.” Smacks too much of people going to depressed or anxious people with the line “You got nothing to be depressed about you’re just being lazy or looking for attention.” or “I don’t understand your emotions so they have to be fake.”

People often don’t talk about having disorders like those, often don’t even know. That doesn’t make their day to day life any easier. Just don’t be an asshole, and consider that people you don’t know to not be neurotypical can have “irrational” motives and emotions too.

Yes, I am calling you an asshole here. I hope you get over it with time :\

There are lots of undiagnosed people out there. Not knowing they have something doesn’t mean you should treat them badly. Sometimes it’s really hard to tell someone has depression, sometimes you can’t tell at all.

It’s best to just treat people kindly and with respect or at least don’t pass judgement unless you know they’re 100% just a jerk. You never know what another person is going through, they could be outwardly cheery but absolutely miserable on the inside.

You could easily treat someone with depression badly just because you assume they don’t have it. Now, depression isn’t an excuse to be a jerk, so it’s perfectly fine to be angry with someone who did something mean to you. Disorders tend to explain things, not excuse them.

Andi is also an imaginary character, speculating about her motives and actions is kinda the point of the story. Questioning the “genuineness” of her actions isn’t actually judging a real person, its interpreting a story, wondering what the characters might do next.

I think they are genuine, but she’s earned them and this is also something that is transformative to her. I said it before, too, she deserves having the ashes given back to her. It is cruel, but what she did was way worse. The way Mari is going about it isn’t mature, but I throw her a bone, because it was such a shitty thing Andi did (even though she is remorseful over it). Not only was it dishonest to everyone, but it turned out even worse, because Amanda’s parents abused her like Todd’s bio father did and she ended up like he did when he was first adopted. I cannot imagine how much that has hurt him and how much hurt and Mamma Bear Mari is feeling.

Hey – I wanted to give a call out here. I’ve read a lot of the comment pages, and I’ve seen you be insulted and get defensive. You’re not doing that now, and since bad behavior was harped on, good should be too! You’re not (either what Cass said or what Liliet said before). You’ve been very calm, and well-spoken on this page, and I wanted to say thank you.

I may not like Andi, but I certainly wouldn’t poison her. I would have probably dumped the ashes, cleaned out the urn, and gave her a drink in the clean urn, but that’s because I am mean. I still wouldn’t poison her. That’s just cruel. 😛

Ok! Im just going to say it! This was a horrible move! Even for her! I get it you’re mad that she didn’t say anything for so long but can we still look at the fact that Andi and Todd were still pretty young when all of this happened? People make mistakes, and she’s trying to fix it. Everyone is giving her such a hard time about it but no one is really trying to put things in perspective for how hard this was for her. They treat her like she wanted to do this to them.

Pretty sure people are still pissed at Andi not over the fact that she gave Amanda up but that she never came clean until AFTER she adopted/reclaimed Amanda back, and then Todd stumbled across them. She NEVER herself came out and said, “Hey, Todd, we need to talk.” Her immaturity upon giving birth is nothing compared to her lack of maturity over the years in dealing with any situation which puts strain or tension on daily life. Fascinating character Dave has created, no? 🙂

I do, however, disagree that the Smiths are treating her like she wanted to do this to them. She is not charismatic or smart enough to be a psycho LOL. No, I see Mari’s reaction as a hurt person throwing in the offender’s face exactly what she got, wanting her to know how badly they were hurt by Andi. My above comments shed light into what I think is really going on inside Andi’s head.

I wonder how many times Andi tried to summon up the nerve to own up to the truth, then panicked and skittered sideways with some stupid flippant remark?

People keep repeating “EIGHT YEARS”… and yet, if the lie had only lasted seven years, would she be less guilty? How about six years? Five? Maybe if she’d come clean after four years… no, that wouldn’t have been any better. How about three? Two? One year! If she’d told the truth after a year, when she was eighteen, wouldn’t people still be saying “You lied about this horrible thing, let us grieve and go on grieving, for a WHOLE YEAR!”

Well then, six months? How about one month? There’s the urn, there’s the intense grief she put them through, then one month later she turns around and says, “Hey no, it didn’t happen. Actually, I gave Amanda up for adoption. I told you she had died so you couldn’t argue me out of it.”

If it had happened that way while everyone’s emotions were still raw, it would have been like a bomb exploding. Once the lie had been told, the trap had already closed about her. There was no good way out.

people kept repeating eight years because that’s how long it was.
If it was seven years, they still would have been angry.
Honestly, I think if she had told them sooner, like at one month, they would have been more understanding. At the very least, this sense of betrayal would be years in the past. She only made it worse by continuing the lie.

There was certainly no good way out, but the thing is, continuing to hide the truth WHILE maintaining a supposedly friendly relationship with the victims is WAY worse than just coming clean early. I’m not sure where the line is between the two, but it’s definitely less than a year.

I once started writing a story about some detectives. The mystery plot was about a sex slave ring. One of the kidnapped girls — kidnapped years ago — is the daughter of one of the detectives.

The perpetrator is that detective’s best friend. The one who supported him through the futile attempt to track down the kidnappers. The one on whose shoulder he cried many long nights. The one who drove him home after he passed out from trying to drink the pain away.

The one who, AT ANY TIME, could’ve told the detective where the girl had been taken, and given them a lead to get her back. But chose instead to enjoy the position of “most trusted friend.”

You think that isn’t worse — by an order of magnitude — than just kidnapping the girl to begin with? Because I think it is.

What Andi did was appalling. I’m not going to pretend otherwise. However, she was scared, and even IF her mother was well intentioned in making the offer she did pressure Andi into agreeing. A parent, for most of us, is an authority. They’re the people many of us go to for advice, and that advice generally weighs more than that of a stranger/friend. Some of us may also have difficulty saying “No” or standing up against parents/elders in stressful situations. Andi wasn’t a “child” as some have been claiming but she wasn’t really adult enough to face the decision of that magnitude on her own. She took the advice given to her.

All it took was one lie and then it was piled one on another. Her mother standing by Andi’s side and implicitly pushing her forward. IE the ashes themselves coming from her mothers fireplace. Her mother knew about the ashes. Her mother knew about the lies. Her mother suggested and pressured the idea that giving up Amanda was “for the best” without discussing it with the father or the parents of her daughters child.

While Andi seems inclined to constantly shove her foot down her own throat, when a lie is big enough it’s going to inevitably become harder and harder to be honest about it. If she’d said something a week later, the baby was already gone, she obviously regretted it immediately, and everyone hates her. Adoptions aren’t easy to undo. Especially in some cases when the rights of the parent are waved. If she’d come out with it months or a year later, same problem. After that… what was she supposed to do “oh… by the way the babies not dead. Merry Christmas. Pass the peas” or respond to an invite with “oh… I can’t go, I lied to you and put our baby up for adoption. I have no idea where she is?” Silence wasn’t better, course Andi probably thought Amanda was better off. After all that’s what her mother said… at least it didn’t come forward until she actually tracked down Amanda.

Could have been worse. It might have taken 40+ years for Andi to spill it when she was drunk like my grandmother did… (very long and true story)

This is true. Many people have a really hard time standing up to authority (and authority can/does manifest itself in parents.)

I had a really hard time standing up to my Dad. He got me to do several things that I regretted (nothing as deep and consequential as Andi and her mom, but a similar situation) and I wasn’t able to even talk to him about it until about 20 years after it happened.

Agreed. That’s why the total lack of sympathy for Andi in the comments baffles me. It’s hard to break the cycle of parental example. The fact she is trying shows courage.

Andi didn’t go find Amanda because she was looking for a new angle, she went because her life had fallen apart and she wanted to make sure Amanda really was all right like her mother had insisted. She questioned what she was told and believed from THE authority in her life and found out they were wrong. Everything she’s done since then is her trying to make it right. Sometimes she comes at it wrong, old patterns are hard to change, but she keeps trying.

Yes, there are certain people who have zero sympathy for Andi. There are even ones who feel quite vindictive toward her. I don’t think that’s the majority.

And when some of this info first came out, that’s when people came down hardest, because who can account for the type of person it takes to DO a thing like that? But I don’t think the comments are quite as negative as they were at the time. Andi has developed, and we see a greater picture of the forces that brought her to her disastrous decisions and follow-up, and there is more room for grace now that we see she’s probably not a conscious manipulator (deliberate abuser).

That doesn’t mean she gets a pass. She has created over half a dozen victims, and she has to DEAL with that, instead of just pushing past it, worming her way back into the fold and trying to pretend like it’s all behind them now. She’s got to put up with the emotional equivalent of a bunch of people slapping her in the face. There is no getting past that.

If she can’t get her mindset off of how SHE feels and onto how OTHERS feel about it — understand, appreciate, and account for the feelings AND RIGHTS of her victims — then this isn’t going to go very far. But I have hope for her, largely because Dave is writing her and Dave has yet to write an out-and-out villain (with the possible exception of the principal). Every single time he’s written in a character for us to hate, by the end we (most of us) understand and sympathize with them, and they’re far from the monsters they seemed to be at the start.

So I trust Dave, and because of that, I am eagerly watching over Andi’s evolution. Heck, this is a bit of a writing education for me, on making complex characters 😀

What you are supposed to do is pick a time and place and talk. Even have a mediator if you feel you need one, but at least talk. She never did that until the truth was literally in Todd’s face and she had to come clean.

Do I have sympathy for Andi? Maybe a little. But that doesn’t mean I will overlook what she did. I try to understand why, and if she were a real person I’d try to give her advice on what she should do next, but I don’t think someone who is this devastatable whenever confrontation occurs would be someone I can really call a potential friend.

Thinking back on all the things we’ve been shown of Andi, I am beginning to wonder if she was thinking about getting Amanda back in the very beginning of the strip in which Todd was giving her the cold shoulder… or was it only afterwards when he’d gone out to the orphanage and adopted Selkie? It just bespeaks of terribly placed intentions. Did Andi really just get Amanda back because Todd went out and adopted a kid and that was the only way to get herself back into his life? Dunno but it be mighty suspicious, and that’s why I don’t trust her in this strip. She may not see what she’s doing but that doesn’t mean she should be allowed to do it.

I think it was her going “Well, giving up Amanda made everything go crap, so reclaiming her will magically put everything right”. Pretty much the first thing she did when Todd found out was asking him to start over.

I think she’s basically trying to undo what she sees as her mistake, not realizing it does not work like that, you can’t unmake the past, only move forward.

Exactly. One day she’s gonna wonder how her mother knew where to find her and that she could come get her, while Todd and his family thought she was dead. Andi confessed to Amanda that Todd thought she was dead, but she never said who told him. Hopefully this is the breaking point where Andi really starts dealing with consequences instead of freezing up because the day she confesses to Amanda that her dad and family wanted her but Andi said she died is going to be even uglier than this.

actually she already did… granted, NOT that it was HER that started the lie, but she did say that it was “someone at the hospital”… well, in a lie-by-omission kind of way, that IS the truth… ANDI was “at the hospital”…

This is getting really hard to read. I hate it when the “good guys” just keep putting tons of unrelenting, vindictive punishments upon the repentant guilty. I think Mari is acting way out of line. If she can’t tolerate having Andi in her house, she should have called her beforehand and told her she wasn’t welcome. This kind of treatment is ridiculous.
I may need to take a break from Selkie.

Mari didn’t invite Andi to her house. Andi invited herself. She hid behind Amanda and used her daughter to manipulate her way into the Smith’s Christmas. From her language when she spoke with Todd (starting off with “I’ve been going to your family’s house”) suggests she genuinely thought she was invited and then she backpedaled and used Amanda as a way to worm in.

If you need a break, take it. But Andi hurt people in an unfathomable way and expected everything to be hunky-dory with everyone once she revealed the truth (as made evident by her immediately hitting on Todd after revealing Amanda’s been alive the whole time). So Mari being rude to Andi here is very warranted.

Expected? No. I’m pretty sure she didn’t expect everything could be made right. Hoped, wished, and desperately crossed her fingers that it would happen, yeah, sure, and she let that unfounded hope show a few times… but expected? With the rational part of her brain she’s known from the beginning that what she did was terrible. Why else would she have been so scared of confessing? But emotions don’t go by reason. Knowing you did something unforgivable doesn’t in the least protect you from wanting forgiveness anyway.

Except this might be good for Andi. Sometimes for healing to happen someone needs a bit of a push. My hell the whiners are irritating me. It’s only been a few months in the story. They have the right to their anger. “Oh they’re being far too mean! I don’t like it!” My hell people, this treatment is not ridiculous, like I said, it may be a step in Andi becoming a better person.

When a person breaks their leg, the process to knit the bone can be quite painful and if someone doesn’t help with a cast it will knit back crooked and you have to break it again so the person doesn’t have problems down the line. Think of this as casting a broken leg. It hurts, but it’s better than her healing without it.

Agreed. Now whether she keeps pushing through the hurt… or pushes away these hard moments of healing… is difficult to say. If you’re interested, check out my other responses to the nature of Andi’s crying in this strip.

While this is a fantasy comic and parts of the stories are very wild what keeps me coming back is the characters actually stay in character—even as they go through changes. What Marie did is raw and unkind, but it is very human. I cannot blame Todd’s parents for giving Andi the urn. I said before, it’s in their right. Mari isn’t going about it in a mature way (it was pretty sneaky what she did) however, I can imagine most mothers/grandmothers would have a hard time being kind to someone like Andi (most would be even worse). What Andi did was not only dishonest and violating, but it turned out terribly. Amanda was abused by her adoptive parents the way Todd was abused by his bio father. It had to be hell for him and his parents to see that in a child they care about all over *again*—especially when they would have probably happily raised her from the start and taken full custody if Andi had been honest about her reservations of being a parent.

On top of that? I agree with GallowsNoose. This is good for Andi. She is facing the music for her actions—as terrible and painful it must be to her. She is also standing down and trying to communicate to Mari instead lashing out back at her. That is courageous! In the end, Andi will find self-respect for this—even if Mari doesn’t forgive her. Andi also will have all the more reason to keep walking forward to being a better and honest person.

I have to say, I dislike Andi.. A lot. But this seems super harsh and aggressive. To be honest, I’m kind of surprised this much time has passed without Andi taking with Todd and his family about Amanda, her Mother and what drove Andi to do what she did.

Common sense would suggest it would have been one of the first things discussed.

LOL, Andi has no common sense. She also does not seem the “let’s discuss this” type and that is her main dilemma currently. And now with her tear floodgate open, who knows if Mari will slack off (which she should NOT do) or let her have it in a calm way and explain that she doesn’t seem to feel sorry for the hurt she caused but is throwing it back at Mari and saying “don’t you see I am in pain, too?” which Andi should NOT be doing.

Well.. I mean.. The problem is here Todd’s family doesn’t know the full story, I doubt even Todd knows the whole story.

And while I can absolutely understand and sympathize where they are coming from, that doesn’t really ignore the fact they are completely oblivious to what Andi may have endured.

Another big issue I am wondering if people aren’t really considering is that right now, while Andi admitted that Todd was the father, currently he doesn’t have any legal backing to enforce his parental rights.

I think the last thing anyone should want to do right now is to alienate Andi. Even seperated, the behavior of and emotional well being of seperated people is really important. We haven’t had time to actually see them have a proper discussion or even TRY to have a proper discussion of any of this and for all we known, Andi could pull a complete 360 and just not allow Todd or his family to see Amanda, at least until parental rights could be contested in court.

Even if Andi isn’t the kind of person to talk things out, Todd and his family seem like the kind of people who WOULD.

Andi is a snake. I don’t like her, I don’t like her story and I don’t like the way she is trying to weasle back into Todd’s life, even after repeat confirmations he has no interest. There’s only going to be so much aggression she is going to be able to take though.

Shouldn’t she though? She’s spent a majority of her life holding back her thoughts and feelings out of fear of making others mad. It’s about time she tells people how she feels. Maybe this isn’t the best time for it, but she needs to take this step forward to become a better person. Repressing her emotions got her INTO this mess, it certainly won’t get her out of it.

Andi has a right to feel how she feels just as much as anyone else. I don’t think it’s so much of a, “I’m Andi, look at me. I’m a victim.” ploy as it is her desperately trying to get her own feelings across for once.

Yeah, I’m thinking the masks are about to come off. And that’s always some of the best drama, and a chance for people to get to know each other.

Andi has, since before Amanda’s birth, put on an “everything is fine” mask to those around her, trying to make them feel good because it gives her a level of security. Her behavior is classic Ennea 9 (Peacemaker all the way: never rock the boat, accept any slight, negotiate any deal rather than cause friction of any kind).

Only there’s this whole stress/disintegration thing in the Enneagram that I don’t fully understand, but that makes some Enneas act like others. A 9 is on the 3-6-9 track, and a disintegrated 9 can act like a 6 (Loyalist: hardworking, team-oriented, but prone to suspicion and worry). I don’t think any of the other arrows make sense (she’s neither a 3 (Achiever) nor acting like one — no strong drive to be lauded for her accomplishments).

An Ennea 6 fears being without support and guidance. An Ennea 9 fears loss and separation. If she’s a 9, then the idea of losing Todd got to be too much for her, and now she’s desperately trying to secure support and guidance from Todd and his family because she’s slipped into 6’s domain and her identity is tied up in the people she’s supposed to be connected to. An Ennea 9 has the peculiar trait of not being good with self-identity.

Here’s a quote from the Enneagram Institute site page about nines:

“In a relationship with others, I often give up my own agenda in favor of the other person’s. I have to be on guard about giving in to other’s demands and discounting my own legitimate needs.”

Dave, you mentioned that this went through a lot of iterations, ultimately hingeing on the fact that Mari wanted to deal with Andi and the urn without involving the kids.

I think you got it spot-on. This is not really cruelty on Mari’s part. Basically, she has this remnant of how things were and she (righteously) blames Andi for it. She looks to Andi to at least dispose of the urn, because its existence is her fault.

I can understand if Mari doesn’t even want to TOUCH the urn at this point– for a long time it was the remains of her only granddaughter– and now all of those feelings are uncovered as a lie.

While what Mari was cruel, I think what Andi was worse…also it was a good dose of reality. I think people forget that this is still a very fresh painful wound that Andi just poked (and also caused). The Smith family is allowed to be angry/hurt now.

Also, I’ve noticed (like others) that Andi does appear to be (whether consciously or not) using Amanda as a manipulation tool…I have to wonder, what did she do when Amanda was “dead”?

probably do stuff like making comments about how “Adopting is like Babysitting”…

ya know, now that i wrote it out that way, that got me thinking… (OOH, dangerous, i know 🙂 ) BUT… maybe deep-down Andi always thought that she could go and get Amanda back from the adopting parents “whenever Andi felt as thought she could handle her”… JUST like leaving your kid at a babysitters place, for you to go and do “whatever” for the night, and when you’re ready to get your kid back, then you go and get her back… and that mental attitude just kinda slipped out when she made the babysitter crack… where Todd had actual-factual first-hand experience of what goes on in the adoption process… and that dichotomy of thought was the last straw for their relationship…

That’s is an interesting thought about Andi’s mental state, (and if any of that’s true, that could be more awful) but that wasn’t what I meant.

I asked how Andi was when Amanda was “dead”, mostly because I’ve seen how manipulative people can be towards the grieving, and that’s when they’re NOT hiding a horrible secret. I don’t trust that she might have used that somehow (possibly not on purpose).

It’s awful actually, Andi may genuinely be trying, but everything is coming off manipulative no matter what she does

yeah, i knew that’s how you meant it, i just got sidetracked by my W.A.G and my “what if?…” scenarios where she was STILL using Amanda as a wedge to get an “in” with the Smith’s family (mostly to still stay close to Todd, and possibly even distance herself from her mother and her attitude about the whole thing) AND i can see the other side’s arguments, too… as for me personally, I’m kinda “meh!” about whether or not i want to go to one side or the other about the hating on Andi or not… i mean, yeah what she did WAS pretty messed up, and i agree with the rightfully placed anger by the Smiths towards Andi, i do see some of the behind-the-scenes thoughts that might have gone into making that decision, as well as the “burn-her-at-the-stake” attitudes some people have over the eight YEARS thing…. but… like i said: Meh… I’ll keep hitting F5 every day to see how this turns out.

Though I think it’s partially because there hasn’t been a chance for Andi to fully express what happened (that we’ve seen). She’s admitted to the whole adoption/fake death bits, but that’s about it. We, as readers, have seen a bit more, so we have a more complete understanding of everything, but other characters in the story only know what they’ve been told/have concluded on their own.

Not saying she SHOULD be making it about herself, but it makes some sense (especially with the controlling nature of her mother, which, if I recall, lead numerous other readers to the conclusion of narcissism on moms part, which would most likely lead to narcissistic tendencies on Andi’s part)

Mari and Andi have a lot of history. I think Mari is forcing Andi to face up to consequences at least in part as a teaching mechanism. Mari is deeply hurt and angry, but she’s not the kind of person to have someone in her life for that many years without caring about them and wanting to help them learn to do right.

So far we’ve only really heard about the history — we know it existed. It would be nice to see some flashbacks to that time, some of the fun times together and some of the emotional support Mari offered as Andi dealt with emotions, albeit Mari thought the emotions were over a different situation than what they actually were.

meh, that’s pretty much what funerary urns look like, as a general shape, and while I’ve never had the displeasure to have to had first-hand experience with one, I’d imagine an urn for a small body like a baby would be a bit odd proportioned compared to an adult sized one…

I’m really glad you didn’t go the gift wrapping route. I’d hate Mari forever for it and think she was a terribly twisted person. I mean, sure, this scenario is still slightly vindictive, but it’s not downright cruel and absolutely vile.

On the bright side of things maybe the two of them will actually talk now.

yeah, especially with the change in her facial expression in panels 5 to 6 and 5 to 8… i do hope that it’s not all crocodile tears on Andi’s part and that she really DOES mean it, but… “we’ll see” is all i can say…

Andi is not a monster. She IS weak and cowardly, and tries to take the easy way out when it comes to any possible social unpleasantness – not looking ahead to how that will make things much harder in the future. She didn’t stand up to her mother over the adoption. She lied to Todd rather than tell him about the adoption. And once the initial lie was told on impulse, it was much harder to confess to it, and easier to put some ashes in an urn. After that, how could she tell the truth?

So, 8 years later she gets Amanda back and it becomes impossible to keep up the lie. At least she is telling the truth now and recognizing her faults, but she can’t make up for the 8 years of pain she gave Todd and his family. I hope she will learn from this, and the next time she’s in a difficult spot, face up to it immediately rather than creating a much bigger problem for later.

I have yet to see her tell the full truth. Why does she never mention her own mother? Why won’t she tell Amanda why the Smiths “hate her mom”?

Andi is all about easy. I’m enjoying seeing her have it a bit hard for a change. It’s to promote growth, not for a revenge streak from the reader. I don’t WANT her to be so terrible! She has potential to grow out of this…probably… given impetus.

I must be a terrible person, because I like your rejected version better.

No… no, not terrible. Just abused, by someone very much like Andi. Someone who always broke down and sniveled about how miserable her life had been, IN FRONT OF THE CHILD SHE WAS ABUSING. Because even as that child was being victimized, her primary responsibility was to COMFORT HER ABUSIVE MOTHER.

And on that note, I’m out of here. Dave, you tell your stories far too well, and this is just more than I can take.

Take care, Anna. I hope you find stories more to your comfort level elsewhere. I don’t even know another webcomic in the same genre as Selkie, so I can’t recommend anything (my other regulars include Girl Genius, Freefall, and Leftover Soup).

Also, if you ever need to talk with someone, my ear is open; you can track me down on YouTube and either PM me or use the comments section on any of my videos. I don’t necessarily respond fast, but I do care.

to be honest, andi doesn´t seem truly sorry to me. we´ve yet to see her apologize even ONCE to todds family. instead she plows on as if nothing happened, just business as usual, with her celebrating christmas with he family like always. so no wonder mari is poking her – so to speak – to get behind the false cheer.
also, it drives home the point that not only did andi tell the initial (albeit huge!) lie that started it all, complete with faked ashes, but also kept it upright for 8 years. while giving away amanda could even be excused as an act of an overwhelmed teenager, she continued lying well into maturity.

moreover, in re-reading the first scenes with her (about her break up with todd) she was even playing the ‘i´m not ready for kids cause we lost our firstborn’ card on him, making him feel bad for breaking up with her and going ahead to get the family he wants on his own…..which in hindsight makes me want to slap her for being that manipulative. hard.

She appears remorseful, but whether or not they are crocodile tears will change in time. I think she is getting there (to the point of wiping away the tears, becoming a woman and apologizing). It is good she is facing the music here. I *do* hope we get to see more of Selkie (and Todd) during/after this story.

I agree completely. The first phone call was rude, but it was that first appearance that really made me dislike her. She was gaslighting him so hard,
and she only got worse from there. Ye gads…the gaslighting.

No, thereby proving that Mari and the rest of them aren’t permitted to shit all over her forever. She’s still a human being, with basic human rights. If they can’t treat her with respect, why should she stay and leave her child with them? Let Todd know that if he wants to spend time with his daughter, he can do it where Andi can expect to be treated with some respect.

So, Mari doesn’t have the right to make her point? You realize it’s still the first year, probably within the first six months at best. So making her face the music is torture?

I want to know something. Please, answer me. What comeuppance is anyone that does something truly horrible supposed to get? What do they get to face in your eyes. Are we to give her feel good hugs with a nice cotton sweater because wool is itchy and we wouldn’t want to torture her? If Andi is as weak kneed as that I say let her go out the door with Amanda and never see them again. Andi can just keep running from anything mean. *Baby crying sounds*

Or, she can face the people she hurt. Let them have their anger, let them express them. Listen to them, talk to them about her side, truly her side of the matter. And then even if there’s no happy ending with forgiveness, she and they, can become mature adults that understand each other better. But nooooo that wouldn’t be good because Andi might face pain and we can’t have that right?

As a chronic crier myself, I’m a huge hypocrite about this, but I can’t stand when someone starts crying about a thing that isn’t focused on them. This isn’t about Andi, so she needs to control herself, so she doesn’t end up making it all about her. Tears will do that instantly. It makes everyone feel guilty just by primal instinct.

Andi is the one who hurt them, yet she’s now making this about how doing that hurt herself. In a way she is painting herself as the victim when she’s the one who caused the harm both to herself and others to begin with.

It’s not about her feelings and her pain. Her feelings were made irrelevant when she did the deed. In this situation, the only feelings she should be outwardly expressing are remorse, and certainly she shouldn’t be trying to act like a victim.

If you burst into tears yourself under emotional stress, then you already know it’s not a reaction people can stop just because they want to. Thinking they shouldn’t cry even makes it worse, because now they’re also hating on themselves for crying.

Something I’m noticing here is that Mari’s reaction IS about Andi and Andi’s actions. While I agree that Andi has a lot of growing up to do, I see Andi’s last sentence as accepting and acknowledging that Andi did something really wrong. It is the fact that she acknowledges it that makes me want to give her some slack to do better. Andi is trying to grow up and do right by Amanda whatever her original reasons for searching her out. Thoroughly squashing her might feel justified but it won’t improve Andi, her situation or anything to do with Amanda. Confronting her, yes, refusing to permit her to show she can improve, no.

While I don’t think Andi is an unrepentant monster who kept lying out of complete lack of empathy, I also don’t think Mari is being out of the line here. This is opening up a conversation, opening up the emotional harshness underlying the situation, breaking the ice. This is a good thing. Andi crying is good for her here, and it’s good for Mari to see.

Well let’s see where this goes. The only way both sides are going to make any progress towards resolving or at least coming to an understanding is talking it out. Mari has ever right to express her anger, ANYONE discovering you were lied too about your grandchild being dead for eight years has every right to rip the one responsible a new one. The only time I feel they shouldn’t would be in front of the kids. The Smiths are not obligated to forgive Andi, and may never do so, and they are totally in the right. To expect they HAVE to forgive is well Sitcom-Life expectancy thinking levels of Bojack Horseman (and boy he learns HARD life doesn’t work like that).

In this scene I believe Andi is genuine; the story has given up crumbs of info that all along the lie ate at Andi. So much that the crushing guilt caused her emotional damage that caused some of the trouble that dissolved Todd and her’s relationship, aside from her obvious immaturity bouts. We also know Andi really loved her time with the Smiths, no doubt getting enjoy being with her (at the time) boyfriend’s loving family helped make up for any perceived lacking Andi might have felt from her single-parent household given we know her Mother had some tendency for unintentional(?) emotional abuse.

Now because of her lie; that relationship is damaged perhaps beyond repair. For all her flaws, immaturity and sometimes questionable motives; I do not think Andi would ever wish to cause the Smith’s harm. They’re pretty much family in her eyes and knowing SHE caused the rift and their pain; yeah I don’t think she’s lying or trying to manipulate sympathy here.

That said, hopefully she’ll come to terms some or all of them may NEVER forgive her; and make her peace. While the Smiths aren’t obligated to forgive her; hopefully they won’t be total dicks about getting their digs into Andi for what she did. They are in ever right to confront her and make their points; but even those in the right can go overboard.

Maybe this Christmas will open the doors to some needed ‘clearing the air’, but I doubt everything will be solved in a night.

Either way the adults should have a proper ‘talk out’ without the kids to hash out all their emotions if so the bottled resentment and other emotions don’t explode out at the wrong time.

I’m getting it on one user on my computer, but not the other. I and family members have also gotten it with a couple of other sites (the one I really remember is YouTube). For the YouTube one, at least, I seem to remember the problem being a faulty plug-in, and once we found and reset it, it stopped happening. I don’t remember which plug-in it was, though, nor do I remember how we found it. I’d suggest googling how to detect faulty plug-ins for whatever browser you use, and see if that fixes it.

It was probably for the best that Mari returned it to Andi, since the urn would be just a constant source of pain in Mari’s house. It was also for the best that it was done while those two were alone since…well…this isn’t something that should be done in front of everyone (especially the children) Doing so would’ve been going too far…

The tears are probably an involuntary reaction to the stressful, emotional nature of the situation. Andi DID do something terrible and she KNOWS it. She hasn’t once brought up that her own mother pressured her into giving up Amanda and into staying quiet about it all these years, possibly because, maybe, Andi is trying to punish herself?

It would be kinda a shame if the urn was thrown out like ordinary trash though…it has a lot of narrative potential for the plot! (don’t waste it Dave!)

When it comes to “real” ashes (a person’s earthly remains), it is sometimes customary to go to a nice/meaningful location to scatter the ashes and let that person go and be free

Perhaps someday, when Andi and Todd (and everyone) are ready to let go of the past and move on. When Andi has accepted she has to let go of her past relationship with Todd, when Todd has forgiven Andi for her past deeds (*note* forgiveness isn’t given necessarily because the person deserves it, but because they need it (both the forgiver, as well as the forgiven))

They can (symbolically) let go of the past by scattering the ashes somewhere

Realistically, this may take some time. Maybe some months from now. Maybe some years from now. Maybe after both Amanda and Selkie have grown up and “left the nest”. Maybe when Todd and Andi have gotten old and grey. But definitely, someday, they should let it go…

My guess. Making Andi face up to what she gave them in the first place and went “Oh here’s the baby. Eyup. It’s definitely a dead baby body and not tree ashes that came from my Mom’s fireplace. No siree. I totally just gave you the baby.” then went “Oh yeah those are tree ashes.”

They would totally hate my family. They’re up there with Christopher Titus’ family minus the insanity. My mother would have bought several of the exact same model urn and plaques, and planted them all over the place in places Andi would commonly find them. My remaining uncle would have turned every conversation into a scientific analysis of what lying does to people, and put her through it every single day after he found out.

Hell, in an earlier strip I joked about what I know Andi is getting for christmas, and earlier in this strip I commented that I would give her a drink in it. What Mari is doing is child’s play. They think Mari is cruel, they don’t know high class cruelty.

Using the urn as a weapon of revenge. It’s disturbing. It obviously meant a lot to her her since she just didn’t throw it in the garbage when she found out Amanda’s alive.

I mean, yeah, I get the reaction to it here by the commenters. She’s just a character, not a real person, so it’s like when a protagonist kills a villain in a movie, you don’t scream “murderer!” but if she was a real person, most people would look at her like there’s something wrong with her.

It doesn’t make her a sicko Jay. If she did it years from now, sure, that would be sick, but it’s the same year. Plus look at her reaction in the last three panels. She made her point and now she’s willing to listen to Andi. So while she is tricksy, she aint some heartless sicko.

I love how so many people on here are assuming that all her reactions are totally fake and on the inside she is all “BUAHAHAHA look at these retards thinking i even care about any of this! I only went to get that stupid child so that I could manipulate people into feeling sorry for me and I plan on starving her and abusing her first chance i get! aww look at that! stupid bitch woman thinks she upset me! better turn on the waterworks!”

for christ sake people she was a CHILD when she had that kid! Yeah im so sure that a young teenager has the mental capacity to suddenly transform into a reasonable parent or, after giving the kid up, just going to up everyone they know and saying “yeah i was a stupid bitch who got pregnant at an early age so I threw the kid away because i cant take care of it”. Lacking that kind of morality to do the right thing, she lied and said she lost the kid. YEARS later that lie had taken on a life of its own and is now surprisingly hard to get rid of.

even if she HAD told people a lot sooner, what would you expect of them? That everyone would be all “oh sweety its ok that you got knocked up and ran away from being a mom instead of facing the problem you created we totally forgive you”?

So yeah shes upset because she lied, got caught, and literally has NO WAY short of going back in time or killing herself to fix this issue.

Yeah, relax first off. I hope this rant is just annoyance instead of anger. Not good for your heart, and I know all about not good for your heart. 😀

Personally I hope the tears are genuine and on the road to healing. She’s hurt herself through her lies too. This is ultimately a broken group of people based on that one lie. Sure, it looks like everyone is happy, but it is a wound that has reverberated through them and I want everyone to get the help they need. Admittedly some more than others have my sympathies, but since I have been in Todd’s position in a reverse situation, I do not ever expect to give Andi any sympathy ever.

No, telling the truth would not have gotten them to hug her and tell her everything is all right, but she kept the lie up for so long. There is a time when that passes fear and goes into reasonable suspicion of sociopathic tendencies. It passed that threshold a long time ago. People find that suspicious. They also find it suspect that she had to be caught red handed and the second she got caught, tried to seduce Todd. We aren’t upset at her for giving the child up for adoption, we’re lacking sympathy and faith for all the crap she put them through afterwards.

When you make a reputation, people will act on it for better or for worse. Andi is facing her reputation. That is how this works.

Funny thing is, I don’t really think the time frame is an indication of her mental state or that it ever goes beyond fear because of it. Effectively every day is an amplification of the fear because every day is another day that Amanda has been in the system instead of with the family she could have had. If she had stopped the lie after say a week or so, they might have forgiven her relatively quickly, they’d still have been angry but it would have gone away shortly after they went and got Amanda back. Teenagers make stupid decisions and are easily influenced by the adults when stressed. but after probably a month yeah then it becomes something that’s probably not going to be fixed any time soon. Eventually the lie and the fear become intertwined to the point where they are natural parts of the life you live and you avoid facing them because humans fear the unknown, and any change can lead to that. So yeah I do believe her statement on pg 644 that she’s been scared for the past eight years.

All of her actions after that don’t say she is planning to abuse Amanda, but they do seem to indicate she’d neglect her ,yes I’m aware this is a form of abuse and it’s just as bad in it’s own way. the instant things got hard. The Aquarium being the prime example. Facing Todd was apparently so difficult she’d rather abandon an eight year old in a strange place and let her yell for her mom then face him. unfortunately coming back doesn’t help that much because that’s emotionally tough to face but it’s a short term thing.

What happens when she faces one of the true challenges of being a parent? with Amanda’s general attitude there’s going to be A lot of facing up to consequences during school years. and that’s just the first off the top of my head. To clarify I am not a parent, I don’t know what they go through from that end. I know that I was not an easy child to deal with and spent plenty of time in counselors offices and parent-teacher meetings. Maybe Andi will act differently if it’s not consequences for her own actions she has to face.

For now though, I don’t think she’s abusive, whether she’s a sociopath is up in the air for me. What I do know is she’s extremely manipulative. She didn’t go looking for Amanda until Todd got Selkie and basically made it clear Andi didn’t have a place in their life. Maybe she did this because it somehow sparked an “oh shit maybe I was wrong” thought, but the timing makes that seem like an Incredibly optimistic view to take.

Then factoring in her other actions. The abandonment, lying to Amanda and putting the blame on the hospital, the manipulation for getting here, etc.

The big one being the manipulation of getting her. I honestly don’t think she even has the excuse of ignorance. There are multiple holidays before christmas in a nine month time period that would be “family time” and although not displayed judging by Todd’s comment about them not being family about nine months ago means she wasn’t there for either Easter or Thanksgiving, those being the two big “family” holidays I can think of in that nine month period.

Alright, I have started re-reading from the beginning again since I have to see where this first urn was. I must have missed it because this is the first time I have even seen an urn at all. Please someone tell me where the first urn is?

I think this is the first time that it’s been shown. I’m pretty sure it was only mentioned, and I think it was when Todd finds out the abrupt way that Amanda is still alive, and he asks what was in the urn that’s in his parent’s house, and she tells him ashes from her mom’s fireplace.

Thank you both. I remember hearing about it. Some of the past comments I have given the impression that we had seen it before. Good to know I’m not the only one who has missed it though, regardless of if it’s just been spoken of or actually seen

also, page 621 is where we first see the urn in a flashback. Which is another point that irks me. Andi knew the urn existed way back then, heck, she gave him tree ashes to put in it. Why the heck didn’t Andi take care of this sooner? For someone who supposedly saw the error in their ways, she’s failing to do her part of picking up the pieces.

Thank you Krista! You have solved the mystery of the urn for me. I give you a gold star. I never realized at the time when I read that strip that it was an urn Todd was holding. It was shaped a little like an old water bottle I had for a guinea pig once. I thought maybe it was something flat, not rounded like an urn.

Given Amanda’s propensity for picking up on negative emotions and eavesdropping, I wonder if she will be overhearing the ensuing conversation. I feel like a few things would likely ensue.
A.) It would explain some things that I’m sure she’s been wondering about, even if she didn’t realize she was wondering about it enough to ask yet.
B.) Amanda will very likely have quite a reaction; though whether it would be primarily towards her mother or towards her grandmother’s manipulation, I’m not sure. Either way, I think helping Amanda work through everything that she’s heard will help Andi to better process everything that happened, and lead to her being in a more stable place (though not fully, not by a long shot) for having helped someone else to think through everything, thereby thinking things through herself without quite realizing it.
C.) I hope that it would result in Mari realizing that both Andi and Amanda need quite a bit of help, and in her helping them to get that help. We’ve seen already that Mari is pretty perceptive (she was fairly sure, even before talking to Selkie about Amanda over the phone, that the two weren’t getting along very well). I hope that she will see, in Andi trying to help Amanda work through all of this, that Andi herself needs to work though it all still, and will help make sure that it happens.

Something it seems like everyone’s forgetting – while Andi was ultimately the one to make the decision, her mother cajoled her into it (including the “tell Todd she died, otherwise he’ll throw his life away to take care of her” bit). And at 17 in a situation like that, I can’t exactly blame her for heeding her mother’s advice.

I don’t believe the story ever says that Andi’s mom told her to lie. It rather seems to indicate that Andi’s mom never realized the lie happened, but didn’t much care when it came to light.

I see Andi’s mom as more worn down by life, to where she’s so fixated on pragmatics that she can’t see other factors, including morality, family bonds, and free will to make informed decisions about your future. It’s a sad state to be in.

Has anyone here heard of the Christmas Truce? During World War 1, a week before Christmas, French, British and German stopped fighting in honor of the holiday. In some areas, men from both sides ventured into no man’s land on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day to mingle and exchange food and souvenirs. There were joint burial ceremonies and prisoner swaps, while several meetings ended in carol-singing. Men played games of football with one another.

Why do I bring this up? Because Christmas is a time of peace, love and happiness. If men who were in the middle of trying to kill each other can stop and go ‘Oh wait it’s Christmas. Right, War’s on hold for a week!’ Surely Mari can suffer Andi for a few days without pulling this kind of crap.

Now, I’m not saying Andi didn’t deserve this, or that she didn’t make a major mistake (which is still an understatement but I’m trying to keep this PG), but it’s christmas, time and a place guys. So lets bake some sweets, swap gifts, and save the urn for freakin New Years.

Mostly because I don’t think the soldiers HATED each other. I don’t think many of the soldier looked at the soldiers on the other side with just utter loathing and contempt. I think, in general, they were just men pushed at each other by forces much larger than the individual, and while they were okay with killing if need be, they did it out of need to achieve objectives and stop the war, not because they wanted to see the other side dead.

Now, imagine you had one side made out of rapists and the other side rape victims, and the war is the court system. They might possibly call a truce over Christmas, sure, but you think they’d be cheerily playing football with each other?

Or how about an acrimonious custody battle over the kids, after a nasty divorce… and then someone suggests the family have a happy Christmas dinner together, just the dad and the mom and the kids… and the woman who’s been sleeping with the dad for several years before the mom found out about it.

There are things that bring up worse feelings than war. Personal attacks, betrayals and the like. Especially when they’re fresh, as the family’s wound is in this story.

…I don’t hate Andi. Not one little bit. I’m not saying Mari and ESPECIALLY TOdd don’t deserve to be upset, but she was a teenager! I might have done the same thing in her shoes. It’s ultimately her life, and her mistake to make. Honestly, this makes me hate Mari a little. It’s still cruel, and really makes her come off as the villain.