The London Dossier

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Ibro
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Ibro 0

no no, gta is the heart of america and is gonna stay there, besides they already made gta:london they wont do another gta in the location that was once already done. itz going to be in houston or minneapolis!!

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retarded_porcupine
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retarded_porcupine 0

houston? that would suck! what goes on there? your quite obviously american (no offence to the rest of the yanks in this thread, so far you've been understanding + calm)

anyway. london is obviously the best place for this (as this whole thread has proved).

i agree that there should be different towns - I was thinking London as the main part, essex as the outskirts (suburbs), birmingham/manchester as the other part. ALSO there should be lots of countryside (with mountains, sheep, farmers etc) AND seaside tourist resort place ie Brighton/Blackpool with piers and beaches etc.

this game would have to be set modern day. it would just be better all around.

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The Tick
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The Tick 0

no no, gta is the heart of america and is gonna stay there, besides they already made gta:london they wont do another gta in the location that was once already done. itz going to be in houston or minneapolis!!

Then why did they remake Liberty City, Vice City and San Andreas? Wether you want london or not, only an idiot would miss the pattern.

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FlyingOfficer83
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FlyingOfficer83 0

no no, gta is the heart of america and is gonna stay there, besides they already made gta:london they wont do another gta in the location that was once already done. itz going to be in houston or minneapolis!!

Then why did they remake Liberty City, Vice City and San Andreas? Wether you want london or not, only an idiot would miss the pattern.

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Chimps Take Cheese
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Chimps Take Cheese 0

yes thats true but things are starting to add up now. Like what flying officer83 said theres being each part of The GTA 3 series is in the first one so they should do london set in the present day because

Vice: 1980's

SA: Early 90's (1992 i think)

Liberty: About 1995 (mid 90's)

so they should do one set in the year 2000 or 2000+ but not goin over 2005 ( or whenever it comes out )

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Boothead
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Boothead 0

London would be sweet, since it has a very violence past. Think of the Skinhead culture, punks, the football Hooligans, The Mod culture. Those are all very violent youth cultures. And there was also lot rivels between Skinheads and mods, skinheads and other skinhead crews, hooligans against other hooligans or cities, etc.

I say London would be great ,since I'm a skinhead (non-racist) myselve it would be great to play with one!

For the people who aren't convinced just watch some Holligan and skinhead documentaries, it would be awsome!

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GreenOozie
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GreenOozie 0

I feel that London, as well as Paris across the channel, as well as Rome to the east, and Berlin would make an excellent GTA game setting. The terrain is spectacular, the crimes would be as bad as anywhere else and the costumes would be beyond awesome. I am a US person with a Strong Scottish heritage and it would be just beautiful to do a Unique Jump off of a castle wall, almost orgasmic.

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liesofsilence
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liesofsilence 6

no no, gta is the heart of america and is gonna stay there, besides they already made gta:london they wont do another gta in the location that was once already done. itz going to be in houston or minneapolis!!

It's set in America because they can show the US how they think about it, from thr British view.

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Medallion Man
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Medallion Man 11

no no, gta is the heart of america and is gonna stay there, besides they already made gta:london they wont do another gta in the location that was once already done. itz going to be in houston or minneapolis

WOW! What an amazing argument you have there, I must say you have opened my eyes to my folly! You’ve singlehandedly dismantled every argument myself and others have presented in Londons favour on this thread! What intellect! You are right the next GTA should not be London it should be Hicksville Alabama, GTA cannot leave America.

The rest of the world sucks, any city/town/shed in the U.S would make a better location for GTA than a foreign city. They don’t even have McDonalds in foreign!

I must say I was expecting rants like that from the moment I posted this topic. I was surprised by their absence up until now. I’d assumed that the sort of people that would post gibberish like that hadn’t got past the first paragraph on the first page before their brains seized up! I suppose now it’s made it to four pages (how did it manage that?) some people just jump right on in there without reading what’s already been said.

Another thing that the paucity of similar rants leads me to believe is that this thread is a success: there are no valid reasons why the next GTA should NOT contain a London based city.

There are however PLENTY of valid reasons in this thread as to why a London stylee setting should be used.

There is a summary of the arguments for and against London on page 3 for those who lack the patience to re-read the whole thing.

If YOU think you can dispute Londons viability then roll out your argument.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

O.K I can put my big stick away now and stop poking this thread!

Edited December 29, 2004 by Medallion Man

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farrugia
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farrugia 0

I am a sinner. I confess my sins. I didn't read this topic until it reached the 4 page mark, and then out of sheer curiosity (and envy for my topics never make it past the page 2 stage) and I saw the light. Medallion Man, your introductory post was Fantastic. I was always a supporter of London in the first place but your piece put any lingering shadows of doubt to rest. You're abso-fkunginly-lutely right: London is a cultural melting pot that is only equalled (but not rivalled) by New York City in the whole wide world.

A lot of yanks think of London as Buckingham Palace but never see Soho. And we Maltese should know about Soho - We started it!!! Lol, on local Tv a couple of months ago there was an interview with a Maltese-English living in Soho. He had recently retired from a life of, let's say, running "entertainment venues for paying adult male customers". His face was blurred out of course. He was grumbling about how the new Albanian immigrants were taking over what was predominantly Maltese business, and how they (the Albanians) would counter any argument with a knife to the throat. That set me thinking about what a wonderful setting London was for the next GTA.

Of course I realise that R* may have to put more than one city to please gamers, but guess what? the UK is very conveniently surrounded by water. I am of the opinion that the next generation GTA will be a trilogy - just like this one and I think that the first instalment should focus on the UK. It is after all, the most American-like country in Europe. They can incorporate other countries/cultures such as Moscow or Mafia-land: Italia in the other two games, and so by the end of the series they will have parodied all of Europe.

Which brings me to the next fact - R* North are Scottish (based in Scotland). Their view of the US can hardly be described as flattering. So will their view of the Englishman. (Scottish and English aren't exactly the best of buddies aren't they?) I cannot wait what kind of English stereotypes these awesome guys (and gals) will come up with.

Even as regards vehicles. Just imagine it: the Tourmaster Double Decker bus. I will stop here for the possibilities of what to do with this vehicle are endless, and up to one's imagination. You'll have the Mini, Bentleys and Aston Martins as well. I hope they bring back the vehicle-armament store from GTA2. The ultimate James Bond spoof Ladies and Gentlemen: Tuxedo wearing male driving Bentley with machine guns in headlamps careering through the gates of Buckingham Palace!!!

All you people over there, get your passports ready. We're going to London, baby.

edit: and oh sorry I forgot. Respect + to you Medallion Man!!

Edited December 30, 2004 by farrugia

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Vermintide
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Vermintide 0

Respect to you, Medalion Man!!! You have silenced all the yanks out there who're just a tad too patriotic fo sure, homie! Not that I don't like you, but in my experiences on other forums the Americns are vicious and can't stand the slightest criticism. You are good guys though. Good show!

However, about setting it in other places aswell as London, I dont think it'd work. Youd have to travel a great deal inbetween and if you just travelled by plane or train etc. it'd make all the map interface and stuff prettey complicated. Best to stick to London and its suburbs. And I can't imagine them including northern places like Blackpool, or Leeds etc... Being northern myself I can tell you it wouldnt work Where I live is such a sh**hole it's listed as an EU Transformation zone

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farrugia
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farrugia 0

You'd have 2 main islands, one huge one and a smaller one to the upper-left. They'd be surrounded by the sea with an invisible barrier on the Western side. The other edges will be protected by the spawning of a lot of different fighter jets, naval vessels that shoot you down. (You can't evade a missile that spawns just behind you).

The huge island will of course represent England, Scotland and Wales. It could consist of an enormous, culturally diverse metropolis (London), a couple of large industrial cities (Manchester, Newcastleish types) and some villages. Then of course there will be the city to the North (Edinburgh), home to the fabled Rockstar Castle. The surrounding countryside will be diverse: with marshes, rolling hills, mountains (I guess there are some pretty high ones in the UK - but correct me on this), rivers, beaches, cliffs and the misty lochs.

The smaller island will be more relaxed, just some small villages and a city which is constantly at war with itself (Belfast, there's no need to include Dublin because it doesn't have a lot of 'new' things to offer).

This brings the total to:

around 8-12 small towns/villages

3-4 cities

1 massive sprawling metropolis

It also allows and gives sense to the use of aircraft, hot-air balloons, blimps, sea-craft and all kinds of motor vehicles.

It's just an idea, but if they cover the UK in the first installment they could then focus on other parts of Europe for the next 2. (I'm assuming they will re-do the commercially successful trilogy idea).

That said, I am still of the opinion that a greater level of interaction with a truly-massive city is paramount. So if size does become an issue I'd prefer to have the rest of the UK go to hell (figuratively of course) and focus on a giant London.

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Medallion Man
11

Medallion Man 11

Personally I really like the idea of a european ‘trilogy’ I’ve said time and again post SA for the long term good of the series its got to branch out for a fresher flavour. I don’t care where: London (preferably), Moscow, Tokyo, Rio, Hong Kong, Amsterdam maybe even Oz, any of these places are more attractive to me than more of the same. I do think R* are of the same mind, one of the reasons being the way that SA covered the remaining U.S cities that were viable in one go: L.A, Vegas, San Fran whats left over there? (Stop it with the Houston, Seattle and anywhere else nonsense).

Now being British and a Londonner I’m obviously pro the idea of a GTA ina UK stylee. Obviously. Your ideas there are totally feasible the UK IS an island so it would not be at all weird for the land mass to be isolated at sea.

An idea I like for GTA:UK is similar to yours but takes into account an idea of Fuzzknuckles that I like. This idea is something that I may build on if I find the time/can be bothered. The idea of Fuzz’s that interested me here was his idea of using a city in decline in a GTA game, he was going with Carcer City near LC. His idea is basically that this city is breaking down, people have lost their jobs and they are turning to crime and more or less taking control of the city as a massive riot zone.

Now I think this could really fit into a GTA UK. The basic way I see it working is as follows:

You start off in prison in the north of England, you spend a period in there doing missions/making contacts until you take over the prison in a prison riot scenario, from here you break out of the prison and make your way across the moors to the streets of the nearby Steel City. This city is basically a northern Industrial city, a kind of amalgamation of places like Sheffield and Newcastle. It is full of decrepit factories and in decay. Now as you arrive here the city is in a state of riot, the factories are all being closed down and the workers are out in gangs protesting. As you are here doing small missions to start with the crisis escalates and the city is taken over, it basically becomes cordoned off by the army and is in control of the gangs.

You would carry on doing missions here maybe taking advantage of the situation and building up a gang yourself maybe YOU take control of the city. Now once you become successful here you would naturally want to leave the uncompromising streets of Steel City behind and you head out and down to the southern Capital City or Lowdown Town which is basically London, now this would bring us back to the diverse multi-cultured gang scene that we are familiar with and missions would take place here with all the gangs I mention at the start of this thread. I could see all this fitting in with your multiple island idea and would also like to see a Glasgow/Edinburgh parody in there obviously along with all the small towns.

Like I say that Idea is only in the embryonic stage at the moment but It is something which really interests me.

Also on your question of Mountains there are biggies in the U.K all in the north, Snowdon in Wales Scarfell Pike in the Lake District and Ben Neviss in Scotland so maybe you could push a ski resort in there too?

Also I like your idea of one super interactive mega metropolis and have another embryonic idea relating to that with multiple interlocking storylines with characters from different districts. Now London is probably the best city in the world (thank you Heinekken) to work with this idea, It is HUGE and contains all the geographical and human variety required plus everything else needed. (See the first four pages of this thread, proves it buddy)

Saying all that though I am torn, a tiny part of my mind still tells me that you have to appease the more ignorant amongst the Americans whilst the rest of it says sod them. (see your ‘Illegal Alien’ thread for what I mean.) Thing is I don’t think R* will totally turn their back on the U.S, they should for the good of the series but they won’t out of fear of this ignorant minority. That does not rule out London however as I think it is arguably the easiest foreign location to link to the U.S so I reckon a game with say Chicago, London and Colombia parodies dealing with the GLOBAL drug trade could be more like what we’ll see. Though if was down to me I’d say sod em...

Oh and and argument I forgot to address was the whole gun’s being illegal in the U.K., so:

Obviously over here you cannot just walk into a shop and buy hand guns but if you live in London the chances are that, just as with drugs, you will at the least know someone who knows someone that can get you a shooter. It isn’t difficult to get a gun here if you know the right people, trust me. All kinds are available, expensive, but available. Seeing as it is GTA we are playing here and not Dizzy’s Eggsellent Adventures I believe it would stand to reason that our protagonist would know someone who knows someone. So there you go another ignorant and baseless argument is detroyed by this thread!

P.S @ Farrugia seeing as you are Maltese I thought I’d share with you my own personal ryhming slang for Maltesers (the chocolate not the people) Small Geezers, you see it ryhmes and thats what the chocolates are: bags of tiny, little, Small Geezers!... Oh Well!

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ChrisKirby
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ChrisKirby 0

I've posted this further up the topic post, but this seems to be where everyone is posting their views:

A London, Paris, Rome thing would be excellent. Flying over the French alps would be great, driving around Rome would be excellent. Paris would be great really cool too (parachuting from Eiffell Tower, they did it in James bond!) And as for London, think of the possibilities of travelling between mainland Europe and London. There's the channel tunnel rail link for a start. Imagine hijacking a Eurostar train London bound (quality!) And as for driving on the other side of the road in England - who cares? it's not as if you strictly stick to the correct side of the road anyway! I can quite imagine a GTA roaming around the English countryside, with european and british accents - just to wind up you American "English haters"....lets hope this is a reality! :-D

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ZiggyTosh
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ZiggyTosh 0

You've obviously had a lot of feedback already, which I take as a sign that you've made probably one of the most compelling cases.

On balance, I'd say London is a pretty good guess and would make a hell of a new location for a GTA game. And I especially agree with the idea that the next game will include some American and some non-American locations.

In short, I agree with you because it would be in keeping with the trajectory of bigger and better that we see from game to game. And also because of the flavor issue. GTA needs a city with flavor, the kind of place people dream about going even if they've never been there. NY, Miami, LA, SF and Vegas all fit the bill. The problem for GTA designers is that the only thing they could really do within the US at this point that would be bigger and better would be to combine all the previous cities into a kind of GTA: US, with maybe some backwoods areas thrown in.

That would be cool, but not cool enough. It would basically amount to combining the previous games into a single game and throwing in some new details, and no one wants that. No one wants to explore the same world twice.

The other problem is, as you note, there is noplace else in the US that is as interesting as these places. Philly, New Jersey, come on? I understand people being bummed out that they haven't seen their home town in the game so far, but believe me, the rest of us don't want to go there. No other cities have the flavor, and the international appeal, that the cities used so far have had.

But there is a mirror to that problem, which is that few international cities have much stateside appeal. I don't mean that as a political issue, but only as a marketing one. Rockstar need a location that will set American teens' imaginations running. That limits the choices. I'm just guessing, but I'd say at least 60% of GTA series sales have been in the US.

But I would still include London. UK has enough presence in US media, movies, etc. that people who have never been there still feel like they know it in some way. And it's definitely got flavor. You seem to be a bit fed up with the stereotype view that London is all royals and Sherlock Holmes and red phone booths, etc. But judging from the equal use of similar and equally inapt stereotypes about Americans, I'd go ahead and pull that stick out of your stodgy British ass and prepare for some disappointment on that score. There will definitely be stereotypes in any London GTA -- that's part of what makes it fun. So get ready for more "Maccer" characters, the Brit who dresses like Liam Gallagher and can't stop wanking in Madd Dogg's mansion.

Anyway, I think some US locations and London would be a perfect mix. It would be bigger and better than previous GTAs, it would be a location that has enough flavor and international appeal, it would be familiar enough to Americans and similar enough to an American city. But it would still be different and special enough to expand the brand, as they say.

And they have definitely reached the point where they will have to go transnational if they are going to keep it interesting. London, I agree, is the most likely international locale. Outside shots: Hong Kong or Tokyo, Tijuana/Mexico City ... can't think of anything else, really that would be familiar enough to Americans except Paris, which is full of wimps and would therefore be a pretty lame place for a such a masculine game. So ... London and some US cities too.

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ZiggyTosh
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ZiggyTosh 0

Someone may have already asked this, but do you think the main character would be British as well? I'm guessing not. I'm guessing it would be one of those things where it's the story of a seasoned Yankee criminal called into the British underworld and ... you get the idea.

Or ELSE, maybe they would build in some way on the two-player models they've started to introduce and there would be a pairing of British and American dual protagonists. Still, I'm betting the main character will be American and not British.

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bmatt_9
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bmatt_9 1

Someone may have already asked this, but do you think the main character would be British as well? I'm guessing not. I'm guessing it would be one of those things where it's the story of a seasoned Yankee criminal called into the British underworld and ... you get the idea.

Or ELSE, maybe they would build in some way on the two-player models they've started to introduce and there would be a pairing of British and American dual protagonists. Still, I'm betting the main character will be American and not British.

If only to keep the Americans happy or keep the jokes and slang understandable, I agree the protagonist will most likely be American.

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Medallion Man
11

Medallion Man 11

Overall very eloquently put there Ziggy much better than “U.S.A rulez forhern sukexors” and I am pleased that you realise that London is a perfectly viable new location for a GTA game. I also agree totally that London is uniquely placed a THE city to ‘expand the brand’ due to its ‘unfamiliar familiarity’!

Plus you have brought up the ONLY potential problem with taking the game beyond the U.S and that is the Cletus the slacked jawed yokel or American bell-end factor which I have mentioned before and will deal with shortly. First things first.

ZiggyTosh

But judging from the equal use of similar and equally inapt stereotypes about Americans, I'd go ahead and pull that stick out of your stodgy British ass and prepare for some disappointment on that score.

Now I don’t know about you brother but I never took to inserting foreign objects inside my back passage so that is not a problem! This is something and nothing really. Now OBVIOUSLY and as I HAVE stated elsewhere GTA does play on stereotypes so like you say there should be stereotypes in there. Saying this though people exaggerate how much stereotyping there is in GTA there are not really many stereotype caricatures in the story lines and next to no stereotyping goes on with regards to the population of GTA’s worlds, the peds. Most of the stereotyping in GTA takes place more subtlety and generally on the phone in chat shows and radio.

As long as the stereotyping remained of that subtle nature then that would be the way forwards. However what I am against is the lack of subtlety in much of what Americans specifically would think a GTA London would look/be like. Let us look at the peds for a moment now I cannot think of ONE ped skin in SA that really plays upon American stereotypes excluding of course for the yokels found in the Hick towns. Now the First stereotype regarding Americans is that the majority of your population is carrying around alot of excess baggage. Obviously I am talking about the obese American character who survives off of diet of Micky Doors and Krispy Kremes. I have never in all my travels in Liberty, Vice or the State of San Andreas come across an obese ped. If GTA lived and breathed off of unsubtle stereotypes there should be an army of ‘em waddling around with their lard bucket stomachs spilling out over their shorts from under their food stained T-Shirts, as it is there are none. Why is San Fierro not FULL of homosexuals? Equally I would have thought, going with unsubtle stereotypes that there would have been alot of discomfort for CJ when he turned up in the hick towns, there are yokels but where are the racist cowboy’s or the Klan out there. The majority of peds and story characters in 3, VC and SA are ‘normal’ (if not slightly eccentric) people NOT stereotypes.

Now this should be the case in a GTA/R* take on London, the majority of peds should be normal and every second building should NOT be a castle, you need to keep reality in there. Now of course there should be stereotypes in there like a bumbling toff and a scotsman Kilted up along with bobbies on the beat and a skinhead football thug maybe even old Sherlock “Gawd bless ‘is little cotton socks,plinky plonk arf a pawnd a coke-a-nuts, guvna”, however these stereotypes should not suddenly overwhelm the game. This is the problem, lack of subtlety (an American problem?) the game WOULD “sukexors” if the Brit and London stereotypes were taken too far, then little Johnny 15, from Wilmington Alabama would hate the game. There need’s to be a balance between the stereotype and reality as there has been so far.

Touches like the odd strange food joint selling dogs intestine soup or whatever it is you guys think we eat over here would compliment the Burger Shots and Pizza Stacks that would also be in London. Likewise there should be a phone in show with prudish Brits discussing sex and how they prefer drinking tea (though in all reality you would find our attitudes to be far more relaxed and open over here than those of the U.S.). Stereotyping is a given and would be where the main difference in flavour (you say flavor ..) lies but it should not be taken too far, (i.e horse and cart, foggy gaslit streets every character a toof or a cockerknee) it is not 1840 over here any more.

Stat’s the way ah-huh ah-huh we like it!

I have had a quick look for a breakdown for GTA’s global sales figures and was slightly surprised by what I found.

And its break down made it a 50-50 split, 4 million worldwide: 2 million in the states and one million in Great Britain (25% of the market bears consideration does it not?) This is much closer than you, or I for that matter, would have thought. Even going by your figures 40% (almost half) would be shifted outside the US so the real question here is not whether the US market is the KEY concern but rather this: If that many non-Americans are happy to play a game set in a foreign and alien environment then why can many Americans not even consider playing a game/watching a film/taking an interest in a story set outside of the U.S and containing non American characters?

Is it because “U.S.A rulez”? Or is it out of fear and distrust born out of ignorance and lack of educational/over exposure to government propaganda?

I have never understood why many Americans will not look at anything that comes from outside of their country as having worth. It has always seemed to me that unless something is American to many of you it is nothing. With regards to story the only entirely non american set stories you will accept are either ancient or contain fictional alien species form other planets or wizards and trolls. Which leads me to you quest re:

[U]Protagonist[/u]

Personally I’d love to see the main character being british it would make a lot mores sense, seeing as London IS in Britain and not New England. However of course we have still to deal with the American Bell-End factor due to which I would think it will be more likely that the protagonist will be American, just as bmatt states. Appeasement is NEVER a good thing, I’m British I know. Personally I’d prefer next game to be set in Hong Kong with the protagonist being a female speaking cantonese than go to some small provincial US city like Seattle, Detroit or even, as have seen mentioned on these boards Birmingham alabama, god how I laugh. The U.S is done there are no more viable/fresh locations left there to exploit and why go back to the OLD cities? Hong Kong has MUCH more to offer us than these minor league places, as does London. The world IS our oyster.

As far as I am concerned a good story is a good story irrespective of the setting or the nationality or colour of the skin or language of the narrator (so long as I am offered translation!) On the whole cantonese thing, like I said in farrugias ‘legal alien’ thread, I have eyes and a brain and I can read subtitles. I believe that view re: new setting is one shared by the majority of the non-US GTA-ers whether they be from Britain, Brazil or Barbados. (or Malta, farrugia)

However this brings us back to the problem you have raised...

Cletus the slacked jawed yokel.

Now I before I start don’t want to turn this thread into a my country is better than yours slanging match, as far as I am concerned the whole of the world has great things to offer me but...

The real question raised by the figures is, as I said before, this: If that many non Americans will play a game set in the US then why will a very substantial minority of Americans not even consider/ look at a game/film/story set OUTSIDE of the U.S? I never can understand this and I don’t think I ever will be able to. Now I am british and I am proud of my country and its history however this does not get in the way of me appreciating what the rest of the world has to offer me, wether that be stories in film’s games or books, or new sights sounds and smells or new and different people with different cultures and lifestyles. I love to learn of the world, I love travelling in it and I love meeting people from other countries and finding out how different yet similar they are to the brits that I am used to living with every day. We are all the same species and we are all living our own lives experiencing the same emotions I bear no ill feeling to my fellow man/woman simply because of their country of origin or their colour or religion, neither do I FEAR them.

Now it seems to me from what I read on these boards as well as pick up from other sources that a worryingly large minority of Americans hold views that completely contrast those above. I’ve never understood how a country that was so ethnically diverse and built on emigration/immigration could produce so many naive and distrusting individuals. Now I’ve visited your fine country on several occasions, I’ve been to NY which I loved, I have been to the grand canyon which was an amazing sight that I could not have seen anywhere else, I have been to florida several times and am dying to go to New Orleans on mardi gras and ride a Harley across your country someday. I saw/experienced great and enjoyable things there and importantly, experienced the hospitality and warmth of many of your people, however I despair at some of the ignorance, distrust and fear of the outside world I see and hear coming out of the U.S and seeing as I am here, posted on these boards .

Now why am I waffling about all this on a GTA board?,well it is relevant to my case I have put here relating to the series of games that we all ( American, British, Canadian, Ozzie Brazilian etc.) enjoy moving beyond its current U.S location. Now I truly believe the series has to do that but as you say I fear it will not due to what amounts to no more than a set of ignorant and insular Americans from hick backwaters who cannot see past their own chubby little noses. Im going to pull a qoute from a comment I made over in farrugias ‘legal alien’ thread now to save some typing:

However down the line I have changed my tune, the series SHOULD and NEEDS to move beyond the U.S. Why does anyone want the game to stay the same and go on a tour of the U.S smaller cities? Ignorance/ Fear/ Lack of intelligence/Immaturity. Personally I don’t care where it goes, Tokyo, Moscow, London, Sydney, Rio all of these places would be viable. GTA IS A CARTOON. I’m British but I would quite happily play GTA Rio or GTA Hong Kong, I have eyes and a brain and I can read subtitles. ANY of these places would be more interesting than Hicksville U.S.A. The U.S is done. I’d go back there in time but for GTA: NXT we need a new flavour.

So what I say now is: let these small minded fools whinge and whine about not leaving the U.S “U.S.A rulez rest of world sukex”. They can stay living in their imbecilic, ignorant little worlds if they want and if they don’t buy the next GTA “coz its in foreign ant forieghgehhegen sukex” then good for them, I know I’ll be enjoying playing it wherever it is set. Pandering to these idiots will do more damage to the series in the long run than changing setting.

I think a big part of the problem with the more small minded Americans is that they are terrified of the game moving away from the U.S, they love their country and they are scared of the game going off somewhere else and being just as good as ever. They KNOW deep down that a London setting would be just as good as any of the settings so far and it scares the life out of them. That’s the part of the problem, that along with their ignorance of what the rest of the world is actually like. I’ve said all I want to on the matter at the GTA:Oz thread here:

The world is a great place and we are all brothers and sisters all you small minded bell-ends need to wake up and realise this, don’t be so scared of us, we won’t hurt you.

I like to believe that these people are in the minority and are no more than naive and immature teenagers, I can tell from your posts Ziggy that you are not amongst them however they are a problem who I believe should simply be ignored. Like I said over there; If I was in charge of the next gta I say screw the lot of them, if they want to miss out on the game through no more than their own ignorance then so be it, sadly enough I am not.

However in all this maybe I fail to give R* due credit, after all the morons that are so anti leaving the U.S are more than likely one and the same as those that were so opposed to playing a game with a brother as a protagonist: “ I aint gawn b no dirdy N*****” Though these same fools objections did not affect SA breaking sale records, so why should they affect GTA:Non USA doing the same?

(zzzzzzzzzzipp *Medallion Man dons flame retardant suit*)

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Pojosama
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Pojosama 0

London would be an amazing location. The new engine for the next GTA would provide space for a good chunk of the zillions of different gangs. The last three GTA games have been limited by the soon to be relatively low power of our current generation of consoles. The next generation will be powerful enough to take on GTA:London - it is a huge city with amazing diversity in locations, people, gangs, backgrounds, etc. Forget the mess that The Getaway made of a GTA clone, because it did a sh*tty job of replicating the GTA-style genre.

Here is how I would set it out:

Gangs: 'Scum' category. They aren't exactly real gangs but more just scummy people who hang around being dirty.

Chavs - They aren't really much a threat to a hardened Claude, Tommy Vercetti or Carl Johnson. They are wannabe gangsters, snorting and smoking anything they can get their hands on, wearing cheap sportswear and fake Burberry hats, starting fights on random people but not really posing any sort of threat. Maybe you'll get a bit of sh*t from them when you first start the game and aren't very important.

They hang around in large groups in Suburban and Commercial/shopping kinda places.

They are involved in petty theft, vandalism, small fights, muggings, occasionally car theft.

Pikeys - Possibly a British equivelant of American 'trailer trash', but Irish. They live in caravans, speak in a bizarre sub-Irish accent that nobody aside from themselves can understand, and spend their time stealing cars, crashing cars, burning out cars, and drinking. They also tend to keep dogs (D'ya like dags?) around - (possibility for animals in the next time).

Gypsies - Pretty much the same as pikeys, but English, Romanian?, Hungarian? etc. In fact, we'll just say they're exactly the same as pikeys, but not Irish. Maybe they're opposed to them in a gang war type thing. I dunno.

Info: Pretty sure we all know what gypsies are.

Higher scum category:

Yardies - Jamaican/other Caribbean drug farmers/synthesisers. As far as I have been educated, they hang around in flats which they have converted into drug labs and weed farms. I'm not sure how often they go out for gang wars, but their main occupation is the creation and selling of drugs. You aren't likely to find them wandering around, but the drug dealers who fall under their control are likely to be out and about at night dealing.

Info: See The Getaway, see GTA3 (ish)

Black low-level gangsters - Sorry for being non-politically correct there but I don't know how else to describe them. They are the most likely to be stabbing and killing people so far. Not an all too common occurance, but it happens within these gangs. Likely to be found out in the same places as Chavs (see earlier) dealing drugs, using drugs, stealing mobile phones, selling mobile phones, graffiti-ing, etc.

Info: ?

National Front Skinheads / Hooligans - I don't know much about these guys other than they are bald, angry, and dislike anyone who isn't white and British. Probably have beef with the two last gangs I mentioned. Probably involved in violence, vandalism, racism, getting pissed and acting disorderly, the odd homicide here and there. Someone should fill me in on this one, dunno much about them.

Info: ?

More organized gangs:

Triads / Tongs - Chinese gangster people. Remind me to research. I can tell you where they are likely to operate, though - Chinatown! ...*cough*

Russians/Ukrainians - They're Russian and they come from Russia, and they are likely to speak Russian. I know nothing of these folk. Just filling the space.

Jewish Diamond Store People - See Snatch. I dunno, they're rich, Jewish and they all own diamond shops. And they're featured in Snatch, so they must be rich organized gangsters.

I'm sure there are some others... well, Rockstar can take it from there. GTA:London was the first GTA thing they did and I'm sure they wanna get back to their roots or something. At least I hope so, cus it would be awesome.

Edit: Just as the previous GTA games have sort of poked fun at their corresponding cities, I think some of that is in order to keep our yankee doodle friends entertained. You could roll up to a TV shop and see in the window some show about a bunch of 'British Lad' type punching each other and swearing incessantly and whatnot.

And when you die during a rampage in a tank resulting in 200 deaths, you get a spinning newspaper, and it says '200 DEAD IN LONDON - TERRORISTS TO BLAME?' in a really small box at the bottom, but it has 'KATIE PRICE AND PRINCE CHARLES SEX SCANDAL!' and a picture of some hottie in a bikini, taking up the rest of the page. British tabloids would have to be made fun of anyway. I'm getting excited =(

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shorty2k3000
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shorty2k3000 0

Im british (i'm from up north though) and it kind of annoys me the way England is a stereotype in certain ways, and I think your post sums it up well.

Don't you think alot of Americans get annoyed when people stereotype them? Because the amount of people in this country who 'hate them' is unbearable, I love America much more than this bitter little sarcastic country.

I live in England, in Devon and I think London could work if they don't make it too much like The Getaway. Even though I like that game, I think if there was a GTA version of it then it would be pretty boring.

Personally I would rather see some European cities like Paris, Rome or Athens in a GTA game. Or maybe Prague would be cool or Moscow (Russians!). There should be a city where there would be snow every now and again. But that's just my opinion.

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ZiggyTosh
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ZiggyTosh 0

Hi Medallion Man. Thanks for your long and substantial response. Talking directly to the guy who started the forum -- wow, I feel like I just met the pope.

Listen, I was being ironic when I said the thing about pulling the stick out of your stodgy British ass. I mean, I was just trying to be clever, since it is a stereotype we have of Brits that they are all uptight. But beyond calling attention to the fact that there is one more stereotype, I didn't mean anything by it. I have no doubt that you, as an individual, are a perfectly relaxed and mellow person. And that your ass is totally stick-free.

You ask a bunch of interesting questions. First, you bring up the issue of how much stereotyping there really is in GTA San Andreas.

I may be particularly sensitive to this. I'm from California originally, but went to college in a redneck state and spent five years after college living in the Middle East, where I became intimately familiar with Arab and European stereotypes about Americans.

Without playing the game again (I JUST got to 100% and am taking a break from San Andreas) it's hard for me to be as specific as I should, but I will try. I DO recall the Rancher-driving rural cops referring to CJ as "boy" (I vaguely recall that the context was, "you new here, boy?" but can't swear to that) - a simple thing, but the racial connotations of a white rural cop calling a black dude "boy" would not be lost on Americans. And it does feed into a stereotype that white rural cops are racist.

I agree with you that much of it is in the radio stations, etc. A good example is the radio that plays in Ammu-Nation, and of course Ammu-Nation itself. The clerk there closes with lines like "The war is coming" and "there are cultists everywhere, friend." He's obviously a stereotype of a right-wing, communist-fearing gun nut. And the radio in there does little things like refer to the movie "Red Dawn" (in which teen gun owners fight off a Russian invasion of America) as a documentary.

There is the de riguer corrupt federal agent and all the corrupt cops. The ghettos populated by black and ethnic folk, and the wealthy urban areas populated by white folk. The woman on the country music station who makes bestiality references and sticks a harmonica in her cooter. And so on. As I said, I lived in a redneck state for a while and my experience with rednecks is that they are about 30 times more tolerant than urban leftish intellectual types. The urbanites will wink at you and curse you behind your back. The rednecks just say, "By all means, do whatever you want on your property; but don't tell me what to do on mine or I'll shoot you." When you're out of sight, they don't talk about you or even think about you. As far as SF and gay, well, there are rainbow flags everywhere in the "Garcia" (which is equivalent to the real life Castro district in San Francisco), a gay hair stylist, but yeah, overall, I agree with you that they didn't play that up as much as they could have.

And I'm glad, as you say, that they at least didn't make everyone fat.

Now I am not saying I would remove all these elements from the game. But the thing that is annoying to me is that y'all wouldn't even recognize them as stereotypes, because you just think it is accurate sociology of America to identify rural white folk as poor, ignorant and racist, cops and government officials as corrupt, gun owners as crazy and right wing, blacks as oppressed and angry, whites as wealthy and corrupt, etc.

Still, let me again make it clear. These things make the game fun. I do wish that Europeans and others would recognize that they are skewed out of all proportion to what is actually true in America, but still, part of the fun is embracing all the stereotypes, amping them up several notches, and allowing us to live them.

So whatever. I am sure they will do the same for the UK, if it is part of the game. Tea-time references wouldn't carry very far since there isn't a lot of sex and violence involved in the typical tea (18th century or otherwise), but something like Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels provides lots of material for steretypes that could be made fun (and there are even some Americans involved!).

You also talked about the marketing issues and asked why it is that Americans need an American angle in the game.

First, I am sure your marketing figures are the right ones. I was just guessing. But still 50% American sales, 25% Brit, and 25% other still makes Americans the core audience. But I would also think that it makes it possible to try to target a larger Brit or int'l audience if you are careful to keep the Americans too. But you and I already agree about that. You were asking WHY it is that Americans wouldn't be interested in the rest of the world, or why they would need the game to be American in order to want to play it.

As you might imagine, I've heard many variations of this question in my time outside of the US. My standard answer, when asked this question by, say, an Egyptian is, "Well, think of it this way. Americans aren't any more interested in Salvadorans than you are. And neither are they any more interested in Egypt than the Salvadorans are. The only thing that makes this seem unfair, on its surface, is that both Salvadorans and Egyptians ARE interested in America."

This same reasoning applies, to a lesser extent, to Europeans. Europeans ARE somewhat interested in other Europeans, although I understand there are a lot of British Euroskeptics who like the Europeans just fine right where they are: on the other side of the channel.

I might be getting bogged down here. The point I'm trying to make is really pretty simple.

It's not just that American pop culture is most appealing to Americans, but that it is the second-most appealing (sometimes first) for just about EVERYONE else. You, as an individual, might love to play the Hong Kong crime mistress. But most Brits wouldn't, at least not as much as they would want to play godfather or gangsta in an American city. Likewise, a Hong Kong kid probably wouldn't be as intersted in playing a British criminal as an American one.

If you are British, or French, or Spanish, or whatever, you basically have two cultures with which you are familiar: your home culture and the global American culture. Think of Americans the same way. They are comfortable in their home culture and in the global American culture; it's just that in their cases those two cultures happen to be one and the same.

But that doesn't entirely dismiss what you are saying. It is still true that there is a stronger international awareness in Europe than in America. But I think that's to be expected. I mean, you are closer together geographically and you are engaged in this process of building an EU that is causing you to bring down cultural and political barriers piece by piece. So it's natural that you are going to have more awareness of other Europeans than Americans would.

Americans, despite close historical and cultural links, are not Europeans, so you wouldn't really expect us to be all that aware. For what it's worth, we pay more attention to Europe, and are more familiar with your cities and so on, than do Asians, Africans, Latin Americans, Middle Easterners, etc.

Enough so that I think a GTA: London would be sellable to an American audience, but would have to include enough elements to keep them feeling familiar. I think this is just harder for Europeans to see because you are so exposed to American culture that you already felt familiar with it long before you picked up any of the GTA games.

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250sxrider
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250sxrider 0

I, for one, fear that London (yes I have been there and yes, it is an absolutely beautiful city) will not be the main base of the new GTA. We have visited an urban area already and quite frankly, everyone got sick of it. That is why they introduced something totally new : Vice City. And People got sick of that. And they once again released something totally new : San Andreas. And for some reason I just dont see Gta heading back to a dense Urban area... Unless the game was a joint of 3, 4, or maybe 5 cities. (mock london, rome, berlin, paris, or Madrid. I think it may take a turn up North. North in America that is... To Alaska, And Washington, yes. In GTA : The Last Frontier you would start out at the top of the map in Fairviews (fairbanks) a small city with a skyrocketing crime rate and horrible weather. Then you would probably advance to Jouneer (Juneau) a place that loves to rain and has a 13% gay population. Then you would be able to acces Anchor Port (anchorage) a very large city indeed (yes in real life too) with pretty nice summers, large skyscrapers and ghettos. Of course a large country-side would be available which would include northern regions such as barrow and south-west regions which start with bristol bay and starts a chain of islands which spreads through about 10 small rural towns. Once missions in Anchor Port are finished it is time to move to Seattle. Ferries from various southern regions and ultimately : many bridges will take you to a mock seattle. I, personally, like this idea. Lots of people will not understand what I am speaking about but... I don't know it's sort of interesting.

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Medallion Man
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Medallion Man 11

Right Before I start I’m going to triple post Here, I know its naughty but I started this thread and I’m not bothered so why should anyone else be? Plus if you are a mod and you have looked through this thread you know there is no reason to lock it.

Besides I have three totally unrelated responses that need to be made its not my fault when on occasion people make noteworthy contributions that deserve the thread authors attention. (ZiggyTosh/Pojosama). So let us begin..

Triple Post part one: The doctor leaves the ward for the night and the Lunatics take over the asylum...

First off Neo K-182 now squire, this thread’s been floating around the front or second page of this forum for two months now and has never been inactive for 30 day’s since it went up, so there hasn’t really been any bumping going on, no offense. I post intermittently as I have things to do outside of these boards and don’t get on here much but I like to respond to good posts on my still active threads, I never bump.(forum topics) Also it is different to your thread in the way that it is more of an indepth argument thread, I’m from the heart of east London (lived in Stepney till I was 15) so I know what I am talking about, as such I have backed up all the pro London arguments with facts and debunked alot of the unsupportable anti-London arguments (why set up another thread when all the answers are in here?). No offense again Mr. CFM but yours looks more like a spam sandwich! (ooh handbags!) There are the odd slices of spam in here (like the start of this page) but it is mostly reasoned debate, check out the rest of the thread and the posts below to see that. The waters deeper out here is all I’m saying.

shorty2k3000

I love America much more than this bitter little sarcastic country.

I live in England, in Devon

London (Based) Vs....

Disenfranchised with the country living down there in Devon shortytwo-thousand-three-thousand ? I’ve dealt with this before but oh well, on the other locations you mention London is much more suited to being a GTA location than any of those places including Moscow due to the diversity found in London, in people, culture, gangs and buildings as I have addressed in detail in earlier parts of this thread. Quantify why those places would be superior: Prague? Paris as a city would be interesting but there are much more interesting cities in terms of gang culture and crime in Europe than Paris, like London, like Amsterdam. Rome, well I suppose people are thinking of the Mafia flavour when they think of Rome but it is the wrong Italian city to think of in that context. Rome is small you see, tiny in comparison to London, also it is mainly a tourist destination due to the history and the vatican being there. Milan would be the city to pick as far as Italy is concerned as it is the industrial centre and more mafia business goes on there than in Rome, Milan and obviously Sicily would be better than Rome with regards to a GTA setting.

Now Milan and Moscow as well as Amsterdam would be the places I would put in with London in a GTA europe game however again London has much in advantage over these locations due to the factor of diversity I have gone into detail about previously in this thread. London is much more multi-cultured and ethnically varied as such so are its rich and poor and thus its gangs. Amsterdam has a big cultural mix like London but it has a much smaller size and population. Also Londons history sits alongside that of any city in Europe including Paris, Moscow and Rome yet it is MUCH more progressive than these cities with regards to city planning, this means it has more diverse architectural contrast and makes for a more interesting and varied setting visually and as a city than these places.

250sxrider

Lots of people will not understand what I am speaking about but...

You’re right buddy.... But wait, I can’t just leave it at that, that’s not what I am about. Fist off while a game set in the Arctic Circle would be original I’m not sure I see it really fitting in with GTA, “the polar bear crime wave is getting totally out of hand , their knocking over multiple dustbins a day know and the army may have to be sent in...” Next you say that the game should move away form large urban centres but then contradict this to say that it should move to Anchorage which you state is a “very large city indeed” (though it is minuscule, tiny, in comparison with London) as is Seattle, so you are right people won’t understand your argument! You say it should not be London as this is an Urban centre, then you say it should be Anchorage and Seattle because they are large urban centre’s, though glue them together and they would still be tiny compared to London. GTA is set in cities and London is the most suitable city available. Everyone’s entitled to an opinion though...

**Oh and Big up ChrisKirby amen brother and next time you come in here could you bring some Essex Girls wiv’ ya bruv, na mean!**

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Medallion Man
11

Medallion Man 11

Triple post part deux: Heading back out into deep waters now, Neo, you might want to strap on your arm bands buddy!

ZiggyTosh

Hi Medallion Man. Thanks for your long and substantial response. Talking directly to the guy who started the forum -- wow, I feel like I just met the pope.

You know Ziggy its funny you should say that mate, seeing as I do consider myself as something akin to a deity...

Also on the stick thing I meant it’s no longer a problem coz I removed the bugger, wondered what it was doing up there anyway and MAN did it hurt.

(hmn sarcasm!) No need for the thanks either, quality begets quality mon capitan. You JUST got 100% well good for you, savour the flavour that’s what I say and anyway its always more fun when you take your time.”Hif jou know what I mean!” (ooh innuendo, that’s naughty!)

Anyway back to business first off I think it is clear we agree that stereotyping is a given and should continue to be so, so long as it remains appropriate to theme. Like you agree it shouldn’t get obsessed with the tea and cucumber sandwiches angle as that hardly fits in with the crime theme of GTA. Also on the whole rural white folk being poor and racist, blacks being angry and oppressed, police being corrupt part I don’t believe those things are stereotyping as much as generalisation or cliche and to be honest you could say those same things about those groups in this country. There are ofcourse reasons for generalisation and cliche and you will find that they are often grounded in reality, for examlpe over here you would find that certain people from rural areas ARE less tolerant of other races than certain people from city. This is because of lack of familiarity with different races as opposed the familiarity between different races found in the city. However you could also find examples that were exactly the opposite where familiarity is the cause for the contempt.

Plus on the ghetto’s its the same in London. Poor live in ghetto’s wherever there are large cities and equally in countries with ethnically diverse population natural segregation also occurs along those lines ,this is more a generalised and unfortunate fact of life than a stereotype.

Also; Jes! Jes! I would love to play WITH the ‘Hong Kong crime mistress’ “hif jou know what I mean!” (I know, I can’t stop it, it’s the Medallion!)

Now you have a very strong argument there regarding the causes of the insular self-obsessed nature of many Americans. I was guilty of generalisation when I brought that up and also with the way I put my opinion forward as being the majority perspective for Britons. You see I pride myself as being someone who pays attention to foreign culture, I am generally open minded to new ideas however I expect I am in the minority in my country too on that score.

However even though we too have a minority of people over here who will not look at non-British or non-American cultures I’d maintain that the U.S is still the most insular (free) nation on the planet. Now as you say the average Brit will be no more interested in the events/contributions of El Salvador we will atleast be AWARE of these things. On my visits to the States I have always noticed how little opportunity there is for you guys to learn of the outside world. It is barely mentioned. Anywhere. Not on the newspapers and not on the TV news let alone in any less formal media sources. Infact it has annoyed me when I’ve been over there.

Now contrast that with this country or many others in Europe, global stories wheter they be HUGE like the recent disaster or comparatively minor like an election in Malaysia they (international events) get equal coverage with domestic issues across our media networks both visual and print (so long as you don’t read the tabloids...). Now you have to wonder why that is, the conclusion I draw is that the U.S simply does not WANT to know of what’s going on outside it’s borders. (Unless it has something to do with the Royals). If the majority of Americans WANTED to know what was going on out there then your news services would give global news exposure. Equally european media covers the rest of the world as europeans are interested in it. (btw I’m a Euroskeptic, Europe isn’t America the countries have culturally different attitudes towards work and life as well as speak different languages so U.S.E is unviable)

The point is that not only are many Americans un-interested in the world they don’t even want to acknowledge it’s existence. The most obvious example of pretending the rest of the world does’nt exist can be found in many American sports where teams compete for a world series that does not include the rest of the world. (That old chestnut)

Also whilst American ‘culture’ certainly is widely recognised and pervasive I believe it is due to it’s aggressive nature rather than a desire from other nations to be overwhelmed by it. Now what I mean here is that there is such a sheer volume of commercial/media influence that comes out of the states you cannot escape it wherever you are it is there wether you like it or not. That is the main problem the islamists have with you guys at the moment, they are NOT interested in you but they cannot escape your influence. You’re everywhere. Look at China for example, as soon as the country opened up American companies were kicking in the doors. That is the main reason why certain intellectuals claim you are a colonial empire building nation you FORCE your culture on the world in a way. That and the military invasion element. Those same people would also see your claim that all nationalities are interested in America as support for this as it shows the arrogance needed for empire building.

Anyway a very interesting answer from yourself Ziggy.

So at the end of all the discussion and despite going off on a slight (but very interesting) tangent, I think with have reached a consensus here and that is that London is STILL a viable and ideal location for GTA:NXT, which makes me a happy bunny!

Finally [/offtopic but never mind!] seeing as you lived in a redkneck state could you answer a ‘lil biddy’ question for me Ziggy..Why are they called ‘Redknecks’? Did the Afro-Caribbean community give them that name due to the problem with the Klan and hangings etc, I mean they don’t just suffer from a nervous rash, red-neczma or something!? If there is something I don’t know about I NEED to know about it s’all, cheers!