I wasn't sure what to make of this newsletter sent out today. I wasn't sure if it was real or maybe the developers newsletter programmed got hacked into.

While some places will praise you for being bold, bold enough to include a Nazi faction, there will be just as many that bomb your program saying it's cliche and not appropriate for gaming in todays world.

My personal opinion...I don't like it. It does seem cliche to me and really out of place in the MW world space. Reading the newsletter it seems you're pretty much ahead on this so I doubt it would ever change, so all I can do is sit back and watch as the hilarity ensues on both sides of the fence. Honestly guys, I think there's a pretty good reason that many games do not have a Nazi party (Nazi influenced - whatever!) in them. I think this game should be and or remain purely fantasy. I don't think that you need to bring the Nazi party into it, there are many fantasy factions that could be named and use the ideas that you have for this faction without actually naming them the Nazi fourth Reich.

Purity and Perfection!Knowing that this "motto" is being lumped in with your Nazi 4th Reich, well... It actually brings up some pretty sick feelings in me, the words put together with the Nazi's conjures up some very disturbing and disgusting images that I don't really want in a video game that I will be playing.

This can simply be overhauled by removing the words Nazi 4th Reich and replacing it with a fantasy race. I understand what you wrote about how the Nazi 4th Reich gave up their racist ways, but that's not the way it's going to be seen by many 'adult' players that may have yet to even become your customers.

I really don't think that bringing a Nazi - influenced race into this game is going to be good for it overall and it's sure to offend as many as who would like it, maybe even more.

Have you ever seen a forum about the Civilization games, where somebody asks why isn't Hitler listed as a leader, and then you get 90% of the people expressing how it would be an awful idea in a game and the other 10% saying they'd love to be able to play Hitler and slaughter the masses? I've seen it a few times now.

Well that's all I have to say on this, it's your game and you're free to do with it what you see fit, personally I find it to be a repulsive idea to include a Nazi-influenced faction in Miner Wars 2081.

Just so that you know where this point of view is coming from...Yes, I am a Jewish male and I did have some of my family ancestors killed in the concentration camps, so just the name of the Nazi's no matter how you wish to twist it, conjures up bad thoughts and not something I want to be thinking while playing a video game.

And finally... Yes in my opinion it would lead to another totalitarian regime over time.

hh antigen system, a rare blood groupHh, a signalling molecule in Drosophila named for the Hedgehog signaling pathwayHodgkin–Huxley model

Science and technology:

Henderson–Hasselbalch equationHerbig-Haro object, astronomyHitchhiker Program,a NASA program established in 1984

Movies, music and the arts:

H.H., a webcomic by Daniel Kim

Places:

DE-HH, ISO 3166 code code for Hamburg, meaning Hansestadt Hamburg, and HH, Hamburg car licence plate prefixHH (Rockaway Shuttle), from 1962 to 1972HH (Court Street Shuttle) a defunct line on the New York City Subway from 1936 to 1946

Other:

hh, hands highHH, brassiere cup sizehh, a falconer's abbreviation for Harris hawkHeil Hitler, the Hitler salute, an abbreviation used by neo-nazisLogo of Helly Hansen, a Norwegian clothing makerHis Highness, or Her HighnessHis Holiness, or Her Holiness

Well I like the idea. Granted, 90% of those people have been told the Nazis were aweful people, but rarely told about the atrositices commited by the other side. Would you say you don't want a Chinese faction because Mao killed 60 million of his own people (real life fact)? Or that you don't want another Japanese Empire because they killed nearly 20 million Chinese, Filipino, Indian, and other people? Or that there shouldn't be a Muslim faction because many of their people support terrorists? The Nazis were villified, but understand there were many more worst nations (Stalinist Russia for example). You need to look past the wall and see the greater filth behind it. That's all I'm saying.

Call of Duty World at War Nazi Zombies, Wolfenstein, the new Sniper Elite V2 lets you kill Hitler himself.

I respect peoples' opinions on using that word. I personally don't think wiping the word from every piece of literature and game and movie does anything. I think we hate the titles or names but should concentrate on the people that committed the acts. I would rather shoot a Nazi in games.

My grandfather fought as a US Army Lt. Col in Europe during WWII. At the same time my mother as a child was in a Japanese internment camp in Guam. I don't want anyone to forget what happened in WWII. I also don't want people to think that reflects on the German or Japanese people today. War is a horrible thing and the good guys are usually the ones that win and write the books. The fact is that soldiers follow their orders from their leaders and it's the leaders that send their own people to their death and to sometimes commit atrocities. It's too bad that wars cannot be decided by putting the leaders of countries in a room and the one who walks out alive is the winner. It sure would save a lot of lives.

I strongly object to the Nazi faction because the Nazis here are described as pro-science. I am offended that pro-science people would be considered related to Nazis. Either rename them trans-humanists, or let them remain the evil murderers they once were.

One last thing. If the Nazis "gave up their racist ways" then they should not be called Nazis. In the game freelancer, they were called Rhinelanders.

I played that game. The Rhinelanders were German colonists, not Nazis that gave up their racist ways. Now for the Nazis, they were always pro-science, consider the fact that Germany was THE most advanced nation on Earth until the end of the war. Rockets were perfected to some degree by the Nazis. Jet propulsion research was spearheaded and utilized by the Nazis. Heck, most of the things that make modern life possible came about either because of the Nazis, or by way of trying to fight the Nazis (microwaves for instance). Having a pro-science group that happen to be Nazis is also convient. Take cloning for example. Most nations have banned it. Why? They believe it to be an insult to the human race and completely unethical. The Nazi cared little for human life, and ethics never occured to any of them. Science almost always since a massive push foward during times of war, such as during the Cold War, when ethics and human life were side-lined to aid one side up the other. The Nazis thus had ever reason to be pro-science since they needed to outfight their overwhelming enemies.

And I feel the "let them remain the evil murderers they once were" is biased. The British used concentration camps to hold the Boers, and killed tens of thousands of them. The Americans enslaved an entire race for nearly 400 years, killing countless millions over that time. The Spanish wiped out tens of millions of native Americans when they took over their lands. The Russians have always had a history of wiping out huge numbers of people. And the Belgians killed nearly 20-30 million native Africans over a period of 10 to 15 years under Leopord I in early-1900s. Nearly every nation has played the part of an evil murderer. The Nazis simply lost a war, and even though the Soviets, Chinese, and Japanese were far worse (consider Japan's "Three All" system; Kill all, Burn all, Destroy all"), the victors wrote the history, and simply detracted from the horrors they commited by placing all of the blame on the Nazis, who though no better, didn't 35 million of their own people as Stalin did. Basically, if you pay attention to any game tha has Nazis in it, they are always the pro-science group, because they were in real life, and because science flourishes when ethics and human life aren't factors. It the plain truth.

I really dont like this faction because of the exploitation for nazis (game Nr. 9846844464... with nazis) and then the really really poor execution.

Bear and feather. ok, but mothergoose railgun, doublecastle (base?), old man(er) g7c, chamb(l)er k8 ? Hindenburg with a typo (castle instead of hill)? The name of the operation who turned against hitler is a mothership now and the hitler assasin is now with the nazis?Last but not least, the actual german goverment building is still the capitol for the nazis?(+ btw. barth is not a german name, it must be Bart)

Please just rename them to Purifiers or something and scrap all the german like names. The one thing what is more lame than fighting nazis again is fight poorly researched nazi like generic badguys. Next faction will be the US then with Grorgeh washmachine as leader and Lee Harvey Oswald as gerneal on the uss mudspoon. ;)

<disclaimer> My views and opinions in no way reflect that of KSWH. </disclaimer>

It seems to me that you all missed that "nazi" was not in the title of the faction. the description mentioned "semi-nazi" or "nazi influenced."

you also seem to be forgetting that you can join, or fight against the fourth reich.

I also didn't see anything that suggested that the fourth Reich was genocidal or carried anything over from hitler. From the description of this faction i pulled only that they were trying to get the full potential from the human body; never that they slaughtered innocents. What i'm saying is that knee jerk reactions seem to be the prevailing idea here.

I also don't know what to think about the names that KSWH has chosen to give weapons and ships, as i don't speak german nor do i know that much about the people, culture, places or what ever.

QUOTE: ...but rarely told about the atrositices commited by the other side.

True. I know about what Canada did during WWII and it makes me sick -- maybe not sick on such a scale, but still sick.As long as those types of genocidal activities and the people who do them aren't portrayed in a good light, I don't see the problem. This type of controversy is what creates intellectual challenge in these types of stories.

QUOTE: What i'm saying is that knee jerk reactions seem to be the prevailing idea here.

And a knee Jerk reaction is what you're going to get from the general public too. It's just a bad idea that should simply be scrapped and just replace the name with something else. It's a relatively simple thing to do.

Edit: I was talking to my wife about this the other night, and the gest of the conversation about this is that it wouldn't be "the fourth reich" if it were not the Nazi's. In her opinion as well as my own, by naming something "The fourth Reich" you are implementing it as the Nazi party and there is no way around this as long as you continue to use this name.

My personal belief is this is really not going to help your game, it will only hinder it.

The word Nazi is not in the title. The name is simply "the Fourth Reich." And from what i can tell with just a little research that means no more that fourth empire/kingdom. There were 2 other Reichs before hitler that did not have nazi influence. Not saying they were under good leadership, just that they weren't genocidal.

People should learn to move on and stop being obsessed over every little thing in the past regarding Nazi Germany and the Holocaust, and being paranoid over it. I get called a Nazi all the time simply because I say Hitler also did good things. For one, pulling Germany out of the gutter and completely restoring its economy, something that seems to be too hard to accomplish nowadays (Greece, Spain).

Regardless, this is a fictional faction that does not try to brainwash you in Nazism. Stop taking everything so serious, for the love of God, and let go of historic events. Games are made for fun. You know that.If it really bothers you to even hear or read the word "Nazi", I suggest you look for professional mental help, because it sounds an awful lot like PTSD.

We are going to post a proper response in future, so just a quick note:

I don't think that we have crossed any line by using Fourth Reich in MW. Actually I don't understand why only Nazis have this evil reputation, when there are actually maybe even worse or equal examples - mafia guys in movies, Americans killing native Indians, Rome citizens and their slaves...

I don't feel happy if Fourth Reich in MW made anybody unhappy ... but on the other side I would rather live in a world where opposite opinions are not banned, even if they are extreme. It may seem weird to say this in discussion on Nazis... but I have grown in a communist country, so I am very careful when I see someone claiming "this is the only truth" or "you are not allowed to say this or that"

I'm just worried by this thread. The british did indeed run concentration camps that killed tens of thousands. It was horrific. But the Nazis ran death camps and attempted to wipe out an entire race. It's not a valid comparison at all. Yes, there were other people who have been evil throughout history. Stalin, good comparison, but he wasn't really better or worse. It's just that a few comments came close to being almost apologetic about the Nazis.

As for there being a side that has been influenced by the nazis. Doesn't bother me in the slightest, the Empire in Star Wars were clearly inspired by the nazis.

I'm new member join in this forum. I will introduce myself. My name is Cousin Ryder, I couldn't get any introduction thread, This is my new post. I am interested in this board it is important topic to be discussed. I would like to learn from this forum. Now I want to catch more knowledge in this community.Share my thoughts and gain some knowledge and decided to join with other members of this forum. I hope all friends will corporate with me.

cousinryder welcome to the forums and i hope you enjoy and find answers to your questions.if you cant find the answers then feel free to ask away and me and every one else will try to answer your questions.and do share your opinions because they do matter.

Probably best not to turn this topic into the "welcome" topic and best to start a new one or one for that exact purpose so that this topic doesn't look more popular than it isn't. Hope that makes sense.

I don't think Miner Wars should remove the Fourth Reich. I think it's interesting that they've "Evolved" from the evil ways to a new pro-science civilization. I personally love it. They plan on making a 'Perfect' civilization, not based off of 'factual race or skin color'. I really am looking forward to perhaps doing a few missions with them. Don't suck this game into the real world history. This is a game remember? Even if you still hate them and believe them to be 'Corrupt' just go to war against them as the devs said.

To my person: I am german, and as history teacher I know very well what germans did in the twentieth century.

But: I would not have supported this game with my money if I had known that you would include this faction. Well, there is a good faction (EU+America) and a bad one (WE - or not? - as if EU could exist without Germany...). Maybe there is ONE good german in this game (Walther von Stauffenberg?) - the proof that the german gene pool is only 99% rotten; where have 70 years democracy in my country gone? WE are always the same, always have been; and the player from USA with his grandpa fighting nazis in second world war can be happy and content because he and his ancestors and descendants have always been the good ones. It's so tiring, and it's so boring as well this sheer lack of imagination.

Don't feel offended, but if we talk about cliches: We have Mafia, Nazis, Pirates... where is the czech porn faction?

This reminds me a LOT about some asian that got offended over a hero mech on the mechwarrior online forums.The mech had something that could look like the Japanese Navy flag (Rising sun).He wanted it removed, changed because it 'offended' him.

I say you all need to grow a thicker skin.

"Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it"

So if we decide to DELETE everything that offends us, eradicate it from history and stop talking about if in the infantile fear that someone SOMEWHERE could get offended then we might just as well decide to BURN all our history books as well because SOMEONE might read it and decide to get offended by someone or some nation that did something horrible in the past.

And you guys find me ONE nation that did not do atrocities in the past.

Grow up, grow a thicker skin and plaster EVERYTHING about atrocities that everyone has done in the past.Why? So we know about it, so we dont make the mistakes again and accept that people were stupid in the past- not so we can become stupid in the future.

BUT DONT FUCKING HIDE IT AND GET OFFENDED BY IT.

EDIT: Also, as mentioned before. Since history repeats itself it would not be an implausible scenario if some remnant of humanity created a fourth reich - not that it had to emulate the nazis - but rather a name for a fourth 'age' of a nation.

United Space Stations of America perhaps. Should a native american get offended if a station is called Custer Station?

Our pasts will always either haunt or affect our future. Some of our pasts will become legends. The perverted symbol of the Nazi's is a sun symbol that few people use today because it got peverted by history. How many of you know the difference between an indian or asian sun symbol and the symbol of the nazis?

There is a difference between a serious discussion about history (believe me or not: I don't hide anything!) and a game whose story elements seem to consist of trash cliches. These cliches transport an opinion and new prejudices mainly to the younger ones - to you (as US american?), to me as German and to others as well. And I don't talk about a flag on a chassis that seems to resemble the flag of the Second or Third Reich, we talk about a whole major faction whose leader is a relative to the real successor of Hitler (after his suicide), about eugenics etc. etc.Western PC FPS games don't let you play terrorists who shoot members of the US Army, so please don't tell me (as a member of the main target nation in Medal of Honor and LOTS of other shooters) I should grow a thicker skin.

Well, I'm from sweden - that little 'neutral' country during the WW2 that double dealed with both the nazi's and gave up Jews while helping allied soldiers to escape.

I also dont believe they 'project' on younger generations and affects them badly because they tend to be smarter than that.

And EVERYTHING today is mainly trash cliches in different packaging.

Sure,they could hav taken a new nation instead of former germans in the game and given them a backstory and called their nation something else but they would most likely STILL make a reference to the old WW2 german history because we can relate to that and understand the description.

[quote]Western PC FPS games don't let you play terrorists who shoot members of the US Army, so please don't tell me (as a member of the main target nation in Medal of Honor and LOTS of other shooters) I should grow a thicker skin.[/quote]

Well, I still say you would grow a thicker skin because YOU are not the main target in those games. Your ANCENSTORS might have been but YOU are not. And I would LOVE the FPS genre to evolve and show the bullshit that war is. And that the game industry stops presenting the US as the ever present heroes. But that's another discussion.

My point is that something will always make SOMEONE upset regardless to how careful we are. We CANNOT let ourself get so easily insulted or worried.

It gets my anti-censorship knee-jerk reactions going - sorry if I got off to strongly.

Oh, and the game apparently have Space nazi ZOMBIES too...Three nice terminals to hack for 3X4000 and another cliche to add to the list.

Spazzick5I noticed you were butthurt about the nazi's being called pro science. Are you really that ignorant? Do you know anything at all of the history of Nazi Germany? American and Russia would never have made it to the moon or in space if it weren't for German scientists and Nazi rocket technology. Yes they may have committed evil, but that has nothing to do with their scientific achievements.