Why do you keep bringing up this stupid touch to transfer thing? I never mentioned it at all. I agree with you on what that brings in real life use.

I didn't give a reason because I'm not selling it. *****

What HP is doing with webOS is intriguing because they will have control and webOS seems fairly polished. There is so much we don't know yet though, I can't draw conclusions.

I just think HP maybe has the first shot at a winning combination to compete with apple.

So much left to see, regarding the devs and content providers and the access HP will provide them and at what cost....

There is so much up in the air, but your dismissal seems as fickle and presumptuous as it would be for someone to claim this is going to be better than apple's offerings.

Write like that again, and i'll be pulling your posts. do you understand?

Now, we all have reasons why we're impressed or dismissive. You gave yours, and I responded with mine. Hp spent a good 15 minutes on that one feature. I you looked at any of the live blogs, you would have noticed that they gave it a lot of talk as well. Obviously, Hp thinks this is a major feature. I think it's a minor one. You can respond back to my points, but keep it civil. If not, do it elsewhere.

It isn't whether it is good or not. It seems pretty good. but being good isn't good enough. It's been agreed that WP7 is pretty good, but it's not been selling well. The original WebOS was pretty good, but it failed.

It has to have more than more popular, established devices to make a dent. Does this have that? I don't think so.

I wouldn't say webOS failed, I'd say Palm failed at showing what webOS was capable of, and THEY failed. WebOS clearly didn't fail as HP bought it right up and continued on with it (thank goodness) and now we have a decent tablet here.

If HP can advertise this thing correctly (not some weird ginger sitting on a rock) it should do well.

Write like that again, and i'll be pulling your posts. do you understand?

Now, we all have reasons why we're impressed or dismissive. You gave yours, and I responded with mine. Hp spent a good 15 minutes on that one feature. I you looked at any of the live blogs, you would have noticed that they gave it a lot of talk as well. Obviously, Hp thinks this is a major feature. I think it's a minor one. You can respond back to my points, but keep it civil. If not, do it elsewhere.

I already did, anything I didn't respond to was something you misinterpreted as a point I was making.

Do I understand? Yeah I understand that you are incredibly condescending for what is supposed to be a legit moderator. Hence my poor choice of words to describe that.

Do you understand that you didn't need to add a "do you understand" when you aren't talking to a 3-year old?

I responded already to your comments that actually applied to my posts. You can help the keeping it civil part yourself by not responding to other people's post in such a condescending manner.

I'm pretty sure they only announced now because the iPhone is on Verizon, the iPad2 will be out soon, and Android Honeycomb will be here shortly in the Xoom, and others by summer.

The products are likely not nearly ready, except for a few demo units, used under controlled conditions. They possibly aren't even sure about pricing (though, it's possible they're waiting for Apple's pricing, though how much wiggle room they have is a question). Same thing with battery life. The battery is almost as powerful as the ones Apple is using in the present iPad. But until the software is finished, and possibly even the hardware, they won't know what the battery life will be.

What does that say about RIM's approach? IMO RIM's approach seems much more desperate in that light in trying to stay the hands of buyers and stockholders.....over the course of the last year with the playbook

Wow, that view seems so extremely narrow minded. I think the market for simpler personal computing is much much bigger than that.

Then I might as well say that you're wildly optimistic.

i'm not saying that the market for simpler computing is too small. I just think that this is something new and unknown. We don't know if it will be successful. Do you? Right now, people are going for iPads when they want something simple. But you can get apps for it. Right now, what can you ge for this? Vry little. Most of the WebOS apps that have been out are of a techie kind, not something for grandma.

You can always use Simple Finder on your Mac for simpler users. It's almost as good as iOS for that purpose right now.

The problem with OS's like WebOS for this purpose, is how is it going to grow? I know a bunch of people who grew with their computers over time. Will they be able to grow with this?

Hp was pushing HTML and Java development for this as web apps. Maybe you remember how popular they proved to be on the iPhone when Apple announced them?

But computers seemed to be a ways of for Hp according to their presentation, so we'll see what they really do with it.

I wouldn't say webOS failed, I'd say Palm failed at showing what webOS was capable of, and THEY failed. WebOS clearly didn't fail as HP bought it right up and continued on with it (thank goodness) and now we have a decent tablet here.

If HP can advertise this thing correctly (not some weird ginger sitting on a rock) it should do well.

Failed, as in the company would have gone out of business if they weren't bought.

Next was a failure as well until Apple bought it. So it depends on how we use the word.

But very few people bought into WebOS. I tried it for several days, borrowing a friends phone. It was clumsy. Yes, in a geeky way, it was great. I could have used it. But when i gave it to people to try, they couldn't figure out how to use it. If I gave the same people my iPhone, they could. That's the problem WebOS has had.

i'm not saying that the market for simpler computing is too small. I just think that this is something new and unknown. We don't know if it will be successful. Do you? Right now, people are going for iPads when they want something simple. But you can get apps for it. Right now, what can you ge for this? Vry little. Most of the WebOS apps that have been out are of a techie kind, not something for grandma.

You can always use Simple Finder on your Mac for simpler users. It's almost as good as iOS for that purpose right now.

The problem with OS's like WebOS for this purpose, is how is it going to grow? I know a bunch of people who grew with their computers over time. Will they be able to grow with this?

Hp was pushing HTML and Java development for this as web apps. Maybe you remember how popular they proved to be on the iPhone when Apple announced them?

But computers seemed to be a ways of for Hp according to their presentation, so we'll see what they really do with it.

I would never claim to KNOW, its more, "I suspect"....

The Mac will never play into this discussion IMO, with the price points they are set at.

iPad? yes....

I agree it did seem well off....like I said this is a newborn for them I don't know where its going exactly...... too many details in the fog.

My only real concrete opinion is that this has real potential for HP, as you pointed out they have a strong retail presence, real buying power re:components, and if webOS is a hit, then a real OS to build from.

That is something unmatched by any other non-apple manufacturer right now. That is what is intriguing to me.

What was there about the tablet that got to you? I couldn't find anything. Same screen size. same resolution, but in obsolete 18 bit color. Really, these days on a tablet? I guess the screen was cheaper...

IMO the Playbook will never really even ship or be used by anyone, the Xoom is a POS that won't sell, and the Tab is a joke. This on the other hand, (if it ever arrives/ships), looks like it might be a useful device that's reasonably well designed.

I keep thinking about how all the tablets that are coming out look like the iPad. But really, what can they do? All tablets are pretty much alike in form. Unless they go for a 16:9 screen, which is good for Tv and movies, but bad for everything else, the shape is going to be about the same. They've all got to have a clean flat face, with about the same amount of margin around the screen. Rounded corners, but not too much, so that it doesn't cut into the holding area. Few buttons. Thin, with a small border around the edge. What else can it look like? It's just the software that will make it look different, once it's on.

This is one issue that should be laid to ret.

I disagree completely.

Look at their phones. They obviously think that physical keyboards and a more oval-ish shape matter to their target segment.

Why not put a stake in the ground and create a like-looking Touchpad with a physical keyboard and similar shape to that of their phone? It would at least have had the elan (and boldness) of design parallelism.

The burst of tablets on the scene, all running different operating systems, reminds me of the the personal computer revolution in the late 70's when everyone and their dog was releasing a different, incompatible platform. Apple also lead that pack with their wildly popular Apple II.

What does that say about RIM's approach? IMO RIM's approach seems much more desperate in that light in trying to stay the hands of buyers and stockholders.....over the course of the last year with the playbook

I think RIM has a big problem. In a recent survey of CIO's for large corporations, of the large majority who said they would be buying tablets for their company, 78% said they would be buying iPads (or already were), 9% said Playbooks, and 2% said Windows tablets.

RIM is being forced to come out with something, but like Microsoft, they're afraid to do something that will negatively impact their established business, hence, the requirement for a BB for connection to their servers.

That's the big problem, as well as unknown battery life and pricing. But also, no one has seen an almost finished tablet, and it's close to the introduction.

I actually find it quite refreshing to see an Apple competitor actually looking like they might have the big picture mentality to actually create something capable of taking on iOS.

What does 'big picture mentality' mean? Care to elaborate? For instance, why does Motorola or Samsung not have a big picture mentality in what they are previewing? How will big picture mentality translate to an actual product strategy?

I think RIM has a big problem. In a recent survey of CIO's for large corporations, of the large majority who said they would be buying tablets for their company, 78% said they would be buying iPads (or already were), 9% said Playbooks, and 2% said Windows tablets.

RIM is being forced to come out with something, but like Microsoft, they're afraid to do something that will negatively impact their established business, hence, the requirement for a BB for connection to their servers.

That's the big problem, as well as unknown battery life and pricing. But also, no one has seen an almost finished tablet, and it's close to the introduction.

I agree. And now a month or two later, that big interview with Mike Lazaridis....well he seems more lost looking back than the day of the interview.

.. The problem with OS's like WebOS for this purpose [desktop/laptop form factor], is how is it going to grow? I know a bunch of people who grew with their computers over time. Will they be able to grow with this? ...

If I understand you correctly, I don't think it has to. The potential users don't want it to.

If you mean the platform, that's the rub, because they'll need apps designed specifically for this as I don't think apps designed for a touchscreen tablet will work so well. (Not as bad as phone apps on a tablet maybe, and maybe not major differences, but I think there will need to be some.)

I think everyone in the tablet market is going to have a problem competing with Apple. Just to mention a few considerations:

Apple's ecosystem: HP seems to get this more than RIM, MS, Dell etc., but HP is still behind. And they have Windows OS to contend with! Uggh!

Battery Life: Apple is leading the development/implementation of Battery Tech

Construction: Apple is setting the standards of build quality and I don't see anyone coming close to that.

Materials: Apple seems to have "lock" on pricing of displays and flash storage.

Price: Never thought I would say this but, competitors are going to have a difficult time pricing their tablets competitively. Mainly, because of Apple's fwd planning/purchasing. This has always been the strategy of HP, Dell, etc., make a cheap, plasticky thingy to compete with Apple...Dell's MP3 and phone failed miserably.

OS: Apple is years ahead in development of their IOS.

Chip Design: Looks like the "in-house" design approach is a winner for Apple.

This is just a few, I'm sure there is more!

PS. The Windows world is way larger for sure...but not being able to undercut Apple's pricing as they have always done in the past and the "halo" effect of ~150 million Apple mobile devices may offset the PC user installed base advantage. It did with the zune, Kin, Courier!

PSS. Notice how all the discussion of the iPad having "overlap" with laptops and iPhones is now nonexistent?

The Mac will never play into this discussion IMO, with the price points they are set at.

iPad? yes....

I agree it did seem well off....like I said this is a newborn for them I don't know where its going exactly...... too many details in the fog.

My only real concrete opinion is that this has real potential for HP, as you pointed out they have a strong retail presence, real buying power re:components, and if webOS is a hit, then a real OS to build from.

That is something unmatched by any other non-apple manufacturer right now. That is what is intriguing to me.

A Macbook and Macbook Air, starting at $999 isn't that far off in price from the $829 iPad. Many people would go for the difference to get the extra features such as a keyboard and larger, higher rez screen, if they felt it was important to them.

"The Mac will never play into this discussion" That's not claiming that you know? It's pretty definite. I usually say that I think that something is true or false, though sometimes I feel more strongly.

In this case, I feel pretty strongly about it. I've seen a lot of things come and go in the computer field since i first studied programming in high school in 1966. Usually, when manufacturers come out with products for a specific audience, it fails. Apple could do that because their buying public was small to begin with, and what would be a failure in sales for a much bigger company would be perfectly fine for them. Not so much anymore.

So when I think something will fail, I don't mean that it won't sell. But how many does Hp need to sell in a year for them to think it's successful? Can they make that number. I don't think so.

We can look to an interesting example. Dell saw Apple's sales in the $1,000 and up computer market, which has been over 90% for several years. They decided to come out with a high end laptop line to challenge Apple Macbook and Macbook Pro lines called the Adamo, late 2009.

A short time ago, they announced (quietly) that they had discontinued the line. But when it first came out, many web sites, writers and others in the industry said that it would sell very well, and make a big dent in Apple's laptop sales growth. It didn't.

Now, these weren't bad machines, though they didn't look great, as they were trying too hard to look expensive. but people don't look at Dell as a high end computer company, or as a consumer company. All of their consumer products have failed, and were dropped.

Will people view Hp as the company to go to for this type of product? If not, it will fail, even if there is a big enough market for it.

What does 'big picture mentality' mean? Care to elaborate? For instance, why does Motorola or Samsung not have a big picture mentality in what they are previewing? How will big picture mentality translate to an actual product strategy?

Your comment sounds (I am mixing metaphors)... well... big picture!

lol I mean that they aren't just releasing a new product every month touting faster this and more advanced that. It appears (and that's all we can say at this point) like HP are in this for the long haul and are willing to invest in an OS and do it all themselves. They appreciate that Apple's recent success has been greatly facilitated by having control of both the hardware and the software in their products. HP want to do the same.

Samsung and Motorola are just using Android, leaving themselves and their products in the hands of a 3rd party's software. They can't shape their future, they need Google to shape it for them.

Let's not "hate" companies for reason you gave, true or not. Hp's a good company. They didn't do anything underhanded to get where they are. save your hate for those who did, or those who really screwed people.

Remember that there are people who "hate" Apple as well, for similarly personal reasons.

Good points.

I lived and worked in Silicon Valley..

HP had one of the best reps as a company, as a competitor, as an employer, and a mfgr of many fine products.

HP was one of the first companies in the area who allowed their employees to work Flex-Hours and arrange their professional life consistent with their personal needs.

There was a joke in the area that there was freeway rush hour 24/7 -- because the some number of HP Flexies were always driving to or from work.

Woz, offered the Apple I to HP, and later did not want to quit his job at HP to co-found Apple -- It took a bit of pressure from Jobs and Mike Markkula to get Woz to leave HP.

"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -

IMO the Playbook will never really even ship or be used by anyone, the Xoom is a POS that won't sell, and the Tab is a joke. This on the other hand, (if it ever arrives/ships), looks like it might be a useful device that's reasonably well designed.

I believe that this is the best non Apple tablet I've seen. Really! I just don't see a reason for large numbers of people to go out and buy it.

If you went into a store that had an iPad, a Honeycomb Android tablet, a non Honeycomb phone/tablet thing, and a WebOS tablet, and you didn't know anything about any of them, so you asked the knowledgable salesperson to explain them all, which would you buy, in what order of preference (seeing as you do know)?

A Macbook and Macbook Air, starting at $999 isn't that far off in price from the $829 iPad. Many people would go for the difference to get the extra features such as a keyboard and larger, higher rez screen, if they felt it was important to them.

"The Mac will never play into this discussion" That's not claiming that you know? It's pretty definite. I usually say that I think that something is true or false, though sometimes I feel more strongly.

In this case, I feel pretty strongly about it. I've seen a lot of things come and go in the computer field since i first studied programming in high school in 1966. Usually, when manufacturers come out with products for a specific audience, it fails. Apple could do that because their buying public was small to begin with, and what would be a failure in sales for a much bigger company would be perfectly fine for them. Not so much anymore.

So when I think something will fail, i don't mean that it won't sell. But how many does Hp need to ell in a year for them to think it's successful? Can they make that number. i don't think so.

We can look to an interesting example. Dell saw Apple's sales in the $1,000 and up computer market, which has been over 90% for several years. They decided to come out with a high end laptop line to challenge Apple Macbook and Macbook Pro lines called the Adamo, late 2009.

A short time ago, they announced (quietly) that they had discontinued the line. But when it first came out, many web sites, writers and others in the industry said that it would sell very well, and make a big dent in Apple's laptop sales growth. It didn't.

Now, these weren't bad machines, thought they didn't look great, as they were trying too hard to look expensive. but people don't look at Dell as a high end computer company, or as a consumer company. All of their consumer products have failed, and were dropped.

Will people view Hp as the company to go to for this type of product? If not, it will fail, even if there is a big enough market for it.

What I mean is that for the segment I'm talking about, yes, the mac simply is not in the discussion at that starting price. Even at $999 its way above the price point for the market (or audience) I'm thinking of here.

When I'm talking about the simple computing crowd idea, which I dont know how big it is but I dont think its small, those people are not buying computers for a grand and up. They aren't buying the $829 3G ipads either.

They are buying cheap PC's, cheap netbooks, and now $499/$599 iPads......

Why would the people who just want to surf the net, check email, buy stuff on amazon pay a grand for a computer when they have a hundred options for half that price?

I see your examples but I think its apples to oranges, no pun intended.

The $499 ipad has apple in a place with people buying them that they've never even attempted to market to previously, and they in no way relate to the high end crowd apple has sold computers to. EDIT for clarity: I mean a PORTION of the people buying the ipads, not the whole tablet market, the whole ipad crowd, etc.

IMO, I just don't think it applies to this segment at all.

I mean when I think of people who want simpler computing experiences in this context of this part of the tablet market or future tablet market, I'm talking REALLY SIMPLE. I couldn't imagine one EVER seeking out and buying a mac. Probably have no idea what the difference is between a mac and pc outside of the appearance and pricetag.

I am running the 4.3 Beta on my iPad and it equals or outperforms the TouchPad:

-- most * full screen App scrolling vs partial screen Card scrolling

-- web page loading

-- create new email

* Some existing iPad apps do not full-screen scroll well as they always refresh content from the web

Both were prerelease OSes.

I didn't like the full screen app switching using the new gestures. Unless you move really fast, your scrolling will be interrupted or slowed as some apps start loading. I think Apple should do this for the new gesture:

1- Swipe up (or double click home button) will bring background apps in carousel layout.
2- The carousel shows preview image of the app from the last view.
3- Scroll as usual with one finger.
4- Small x shows at the corner where you can terminate and app.

The visual effects (carousel) might work great with a new dual core iPad but might not work as smooth with the existing iPad.

I believe that this is the best non Apple tablet I've seen. Really! I just don't see a reason for large numbers of people to go out and buy it.

If you went into a store that had an iPad, a Honeycomb Android tablet, a non Honeycomb phone/tablet thing, and a WebOS tablet, and you didn't know anything about any of them, so you asked the knowledgable salesperson to explain them all, which would you buy, in what order of preference (seeing as you do know)?

I think that would depend a lot on the "knowledgable salesperson". At Best Buy, though, they might well steer you to the HP, unless they were making more money off one of the others or your salesperson was a fan of iOS or Android.

But to do this ad hoc, NFC would, likely be the most efficient way to initiate the connection (if BT or WiFi were needed).

HP played pretty fast and loose with specs and capabilities -- so it wouldn't surprise me if, for the demo, they had an existing paired BT or WiFi connection and some bump signal to initiate the sync.

If they were just passing an URL or token, then NFC would be the most efficient way to do this (rather than maintain BT or WiFi connectivity in both devices).

If a lot of data is exchanged, NFC could be used be used to efficiently establish (and terminate) a BT or WiFi connection.

I suspect that between now and summer (Jun-Sep), HP will figure out how to best implement this feature.

There are a lot of ways to do this if, as is the case here, that both devices are running the same OS, have the same software hooks to send and receive the proper info. so you bump them or something, which causes the device to know that somethings happening. It looks to see if another WebOs device that you own (back to that) is close by, and looks to see, if so, if there's something the other device wants to send. It's pretty simple, and NFC isn't needed.

Back to the "device you own" bit. This would have been a heck of a lot more useful if you could have other people's devices, ones you authorize, to send or receive stuff this way, rather than limit it to just your own. I really don't see that as being all that useful. At the demo, it seemed to be limited to a few types of info.

If I understand you correctly, I don't think it has to. The potential users don't want it to.

If you mean the platform, that's the rub, because they'll need apps designed specifically for this as I don't think apps designed for a touchscreen tablet will work so well. (Not as bad as phone apps on a tablet maybe, and maybe not major differences, but I think there will need to be some.)

I think there's a problem with both ends. How do we know that people won't want to do more over time? I don't like to assume that people are stuck at a certain level for all time. Of course, some people are, but it's a difficult assumption to make. because, moving to the second point you made, if the OS is limited, then there's no way people can move up. They would need to abandon the OS altogether, and that would be worse.

So I think there's a market for this, I just don't think it's that big.

I think there's a problem with both ends. How do we know that people won't want to do more over time? I don't like to assume that people are stuck at a certain level for all time. Of course, some people are, but it's a difficult assumption to make. because, moving to the second point you made, if the OS is limited, then there's no way people can move up. They would need to abandon the OS altogether, and that would be worse.

So I think there's a market for this, I just don't think it's that big.

The one's that I know would never want to do more. But, the important point in selling to them is that they don't think they ever want to do more, they don't even know what more is, or want to know. They just want it to be simple so they can do it and get rid of the "doorstop" PC they are afraid to use or can't figure out.

A Macbook and Macbook Air, starting at $999 isn't that far off in price from the $829 iPad. Many people would go for the difference to get the extra features such as a keyboard and larger, higher rez screen, if they felt it was important to them.

"The Mac will never play into this discussion" That's not claiming that you know? It's pretty definite. I usually say that I think that something is true or false, though sometimes I feel more strongly.

In this case, I feel pretty strongly about it. I've seen a lot of things come and go in the computer field since i first studied programming in high school in 1966. Usually, when manufacturers come out with products for a specific audience, it fails. Apple could do that because their buying public was small to begin with, and what would be a failure in sales for a much bigger company would be perfectly fine for them. Not so much anymore.

So when I think something will fail, I don't mean that it won't sell. But how many does Hp need to sell in a year for them to think it's successful? Can they make that number. I don't think so.

We can look to an interesting example. Dell saw Apple's sales in the $1,000 and up computer market, which has been over 90% for several years. They decided to come out with a high end laptop line to challenge Apple Macbook and Macbook Pro lines called the Adamo, late 2009.

A short time ago, they announced (quietly) that they had discontinued the line. But when it first came out, many web sites, writers and others in the industry said that it would sell very well, and make a big dent in Apple's laptop sales growth. It didn't.

Now, these weren't bad machines, though they didn't look great, as they were trying too hard to look expensive. but people don't look at Dell as a high end computer company, or as a consumer company. All of their consumer products have failed, and were dropped.

Will people view Hp as the company to go to for this type of product? If not, it will fail, even if there is a big enough market for it.

I'll even give an example back to you on this so maybe you can see what I mean....

My wife for example, dislikes computers, she doesn't understand them, and much more importantly and to the point of the discussion, doesn't want to. Even with all the frustration she felt towards computers, you'd have no idea who'd she blame, Dell, HP, windows, all the same from her POV.

She never in a million years would have ponied up $1200 for a macbook like we did if I (or someone like me) didn't force that as our computer purchase.

Results? She absolutely loves her mac. She'll never buy a non-mac. She still doesn't like computers, but she understands and recognizes the differences and simplicity vs her previous computers.

So yes, you are right in that the mac already accomplishes much of what a consumer would want in a computing experience IMO.

BUT, at those price point and without the knowledge, it simply doesn't matter. The mac is not cheap enough and until you own one you probably couldn't understand that it could make life easier and pay for itself in that way.

That's what I mean by the mac not belonging in the discussion for most intents and purposes.