Knicks coach Jeff Hornacek never believes in throwing in the towel and essentially said a game is never over until it’s over. So stay on the floor and in the game, Knicks. And, yeah, that means you, Carmelo Anthony. Anthony was ejected from a game for the third time this season Monday when he earned…

Brent Barry, TNT’s analyst for Thursday’s Bulls-Knicks game, views Phil Jackson’s latest experiment a lost cause and advocates Carmelo Anthony waive his no-trade clause to join a winner. In a scathing review of the 17-21 Knicks, Barry also trashed starting center Joakim Noah, who will face his former team Thursday. Barry said he believes Noah…

This was a nice try. It was. Part of building a team is taking a risk with this guy, a chance with that guy. The Bulls took a shot with Dennis Rodman once, and Phil Jackson himself can tell you how well that turned out. The Lakers took a flier on Metta World Peace once….

Even E.T. tried to phone. When the Derrick Rose affair was put to rest Tuesday, the end result for all concerned was that so much concern, speculation and heartburn could have been avoided had the point guard simply called Knicks officials to notify them he was flying to Chicago to attend to a “really personal”…

Derrick Rose went AWOL from the Knicks before Monday night’s game, and in the search for a valid explanation for the bizarre turn of events comes this nugget out of Chicago, the point guard’s hometown: He’s homesick. Rose’s 4-year-old son, P.J., lives in Chicago. K.C. Johnson, a Chicago Tribune beat writer who covered Rose for many years…

110 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.01.11)”

The only real comparison to this incident was Cedric Ceballos ghosting the Lakers due to a family emergency in 1996 (he dealt with it while doing some water-skiing with his family, which called into question exactly how much of an “emergency” it was, but still). They suspended him indefinitely, but really only suspended him for a single game (he didn’t show up until after the first game had already been played – had he shown up right away, he probably would have only gotten a game off).

So that really had to be the road map to follow. The Knicks probably win in Philly without Rose anyways.

Rose might have had a legitimate breakdown, which is fair enough, but you still suspend the guy a game. Tell him you’ll support him if he wants to check into rehab or something or see a psychiatrist, but you can’t have there be no repercussions for ghosting your team like that. Dude isn’t even going to come off the bench tonight!

A few years ago I had the “opportunity” to move from the NYC area to Sacramento for a different and in many ways better job. Even under the best of circumstances I’d be sort of embarrassed to admit this, but not sooooo far down the list of reasons we didn’t end up going was that being a Knicks fan is literally central to my being, and I wanted my kids to grow up in Knicks country. Now I wonder whether it would have been better to live in Kings country.

What have (and the rest of us) done to deserve this? I’m a freaking Jets and Knicks fan. What is wrong with me?!?

I am absolutely appalled out how this has played out so far. Honestly – not so much because Rose went AWOL, because I had already officially jumped onto the the Theo/JK47/noblefacehumper/Mike K train of Rose-hating.

But the organizational response to this debacle is even worse. It literally left me speechless all of yesterday, which is why I haven’t posted until now.

Phil Jackson is absolutely gutless. Absolutely zero accountability, 1000% arrogance and “I’m too good to talk to you little people”. A $500 fine (easily less than the price of the plane to bring him back from CHI) for disrespecting your team and leaving them in the lurch? Showing that you give zero fucks for your teammates and the fans at MSG? $500?!?!%?!?!!?%$^$@ for a dude making $20MM?

It’s embarrassing. It’s appalling. I don’t even have words.

I hope to God that Hornacek at the very least doesn’t start him and then benches him again for the whole 4th quarter. I understand the team has lost 25472 games in a row and that the season is not officially toast yet, but he has a 4 year contract and he has to draw the line here for the long term. Otherwise I’ll lose all respect for him too. Freaking Jerry Sloan would have slugged Rose in the face and then gone all Godfather on him for not showing up to a game.

If a suspension won’t help the situation, what is the point? Because Cedric Ceballos? If he really did have a small breakdown, his teammates probably have a clue. It seems unlikely they are going to go Lord of the Flies unless Rose gets a one game suspension. I mean, what a boondoggle. Guy gets excoriated as the top story of the national sports day, misses a game but no practices, takes two flights in two days, writes a check, and has to get interrogated by the NY press. If viewed as a tantrum or power play, that’s a different story and I agree; that kind of precedent that can matter for team morale.

But it’s also possible that teammates think he lost his mind a little. Everyone keeps saying how anyone in the real world who doesn’t show up for an important work event without notification would get immediately fired or suspended, but that is assuredly not always true. I’ve seen plenty of situations when employees ghost in an important way and get little to no tangible punishment. And this comes on both ends of pay scale barbell. If you think anyone in corporate American making six or seven figures automatically gets dumped or “suspended” if they miss a big meeting without calling (or 10 big meetings) and goes on some kind of mental Rumspringa, think again. And internally, people often know the difference between rewarding a brat and trying to do the least harm to someone who’s in a bad way.

I was bummed Phil brought Rose here (and it was totally counter to his lip service of developing system players over time), and part of the reason is that the guy is often on Neptune, which makes it less likely for him to adapt to injury and age (mostly it was because he’s not good). But not all Neptunes are the same. I really doubt Rose playing in Philly will make the rest of the Knicks act differently, unless they think he was merely throwing a fit. Then it’s a mistake.

and the guy who was such an emotional wreck on monday that he couldn’t even answer a phone call is starting a game of basketball on wednesday…

this is either bullshit or a terribly stupid move from the Knicks, or both… even if he stated he wants to play and the issues are not basketball related, just shoving a guy who had a mental breakdown into a basketball court with the entire country watching seems to be a horrible idea.

if it was such a complicated matter, say to the media he’s solving family issues and give him the week off at least

You may as well call me Theo because I am also just done with Carmelo Anthony. Not because he hasn’t played well this year, or because he mails it in on defense, or because he hijacks the offense. It’s because he’s a total poser, a fake leader, and a loser.

You call yourself a leader. One of the other players on your team has just gone AWOL, you’re getting your ass kicked by a team TEN GAMES UNDER .500 at MSG. You dig deep down into your soul and come out with what?!?!

Nothing.

Nothing but a plea to the refs to make this all go away. So you can quit on your team when they need a leader the most.

Bench him. Force him to waive his NTC. Trade him for pennies on the dollar. Players around the league know what he did Monday night – when the going got tough, he folded/collapsed like a freaking accordion. No self-respecting star would look at a benching as mistreatment of NBA royalty, because NBA royalty doesn’t do that. if future free agents don’t want to come to NY because Hornacek benched Melo for quitting on his team, then we don’t want them.

We need to clean house, but the place to start is with Phil Jackson — not even Dolan, because Dolan has shown with the Rangers that he CAN get out of the way and have a successful franchise. (and because like Jed York said, you don’t dismiss owners). Clean Mr. Eleven Rings out first, trade Melo for whatever you can get for him at the deadline, let Rose expire, and start new. That is the only way forward.

If you think anyone in corporate American making six or seven figures automatically gets dumped or “suspended” if they miss a big meeting without calling (or 10 big meetings) and goes on some kind of mental Rumspringa, think again.

Any well run company would see this is as a MAJOR red flag and would probably suspend the person. We’re not talking about a TPS reports meeting and the scribe taking minutes doesn’t show up. This is like Apple doing a product reveal and Tim Cook not bothering to show up or tell anyone he’s not there. Or imagine a startup doing a sell to a venture capital company, and one of the main presenters doesn’t show up. It’s unconscionable. This is the entertainment industry with literally tens of thousands of people paying money to go and see you play. these are EVENTS, not routine meetings.

Just imagine what even a semi-reasonably run organization like the Yankees would do if even a marginal starter like Starlin Castro just didn’t bother to show up. It’s not just that you have to replace him in the lineup. It’s embarrassing to the organization to have zero idea where one of the faces of your franchise is.

Even the Jets – as embarrassing a franchise as there is – flat out released Dmitri Patterson after he went AWOL for a game.

The next chapter in this never-ending saga of ineptitude will be Carmelo’s “nagging injuries” that will see him missing games against good teams and eventually quitting the season to ‘contemplate surgery’.

The next chapter in this never-ending saga of ineptitude will be Carmelo’s “nagging injuries” that will see him missing games against good teams and eventually quitting the season to ‘contemplate surgery’.

lol – it’s already started with his shoulder injury and his knee soreness which forced him to sit out the 2nd half of the Rockets game.

I’ve mentioned this a couple of times already, but it just galls me to no end that Phil Jackson has no problem acting like such a bitchy little shit-talker about LeBron’s posse this and Pat Riley that, and then disappears when something like this happens. He’s such a phony. He really is just so smug and unlikable, and he is terrible at this job.

I don’t wanna keep giving the #25 sitchew more power by continuing to talk about it or him. There is one thing I’m not sure many have noticed about this team. Alot of people, fans & pundits alike, have bemoaned the fact that the Knicks protection isn’t what it should be with Noah in tow- as if he was ever a great rim protector. Noah has alwas been a great, high energy all around defender who was good at many things at that end- but not great at any one thing. He rebounded well, communicated well, got deflections and steals at good rate for a center, blocked shots at a decent rate, and passed well for a big. A huge part of his rim protection was his ability to cover ground, draw charges, and challenge shots. But he was never imposing in the paint, as it relates to altering shots or blocking shots. So why would we expect that now?

What I would do with him moving forward is start KOQ, and let Noah get his 25 mpg mostly with that 2nd unit. We are most likely stuck with him, so we hafta find a way to maximize what he gives us. The only teams that I think can make a Noah addition work are Cleveland, GS, and San Antonio. But, what could they feasibly give us back?

Foolishly, I hoped that all the dysfunction in the organization would dissipate with Phil coming on, but it feels like he is perpetuating it even more. I like the fact he’s willing to take risks to improve the team, but he tends to shrink when the shit hits the fan. Sigh..

According to the Vegas Lines, the Knicks are a 2 point favorite against the Sixers. If not for my abiding Knick fandom, I would put my money on Joel Embiid and crew. “The ship be sinking.”

The only players on this team that I would build around are: (1) Porzingis, (2) O’Quinn (good contract for an 8th man) and (3) Hernangomez (that low-post footwork is incredible). Brandon Jennings is the only other player on a favorable contract – and that will expire at the end of the year.

I literally would dump every other non-minimum player for cap space. Carmelo Anthony is injured for the fourth straight season and he is not likely to ever be healthy through 82 games ever again. Derrick Rose was a horrible acquisition, as I (and many others) said at the time. Noah is such an offensive hole and his defense is no longer sufficient to carry his deficits. Courtney Lee may be fairly priced, but he is a homeless man’s 3&D player. Lance Thomas is roster filler.

This is NOT a good time to be a Knicks fan – which is amazing because KP is one of the ten best assets in the NBA right now.

Silver lining, things fall apart (again) and we try to dump some of the stupid contracts Phil handed out this offseason. Also this has to make it less likely we give any more money to Rose going forward, which is a good thing.

Everyone keeps saying how anyone in the real world who doesn’t show up for an important work event without notification would get immediately fired or suspended, but that is assuredly not always true. I’ve seen plenty of situations when employees ghost in an important way and get little to no tangible punishment. And this comes on both ends of pay scale barbell. If you think anyone in corporate American making six or seven figures automatically gets dumped or “suspended” if they miss a big meeting without calling (or 10 big meetings) and goes on some kind of mental Rumspringa, think again. And internally, people often know the difference between rewarding a brat and trying to do the least harm to someone who’s in a bad way.

This should be the last word on Rose’s bizzare trip until some more info leaks out.

O’Quinn’s contract is a good value, but it only runs for one more season beyond this one– the last year of that contract is a player option. So as a long-term building block he’s not going to help the Knicks much. He’s one guy that Phil should absolutely be looking to flip for draft picks or young players on rookie contracts.

I think Lee is one of those players whose value rises on a better team… if he was playing in San Antonio he could definitely produce the same way that Danny Green has for the last couple of years.

but since he mostly plays with a group of players who are allergic to passing, his talents are wasted on this team… it’s a shame because I think his high shooting percentage from three is sustainable and elite shooters are valuable pieces to any team.

I would be ok with keeping him, KP Willy and Oak and shipping everybody else

O’Quinn’s contract is a good value, but it only runs for one more season beyond this one– the last year of that contract is a player option. So as a long-term building block he’s not going to help the Knicks much. He’s one guy that Phil should absolutely be looking to flip for draft picks or young players on rookie contracts.

I agree.

Besides, KOQ is a very inconsistent player whose numbers look much better on paper than they really are (in terms of helping the team win). He follows every decent stretch with some stupid moves (like the absolutely reckless shoving of Anthony Davis) and in the end he’s the not-so-young, very limited journeyman that the NBA has seen for several years.

Knicks would do well to trade him while the stock is high, because, like Cole Adrich before him, there is little substance to the player. In spite of the very misleading numbers.

KP should be the only “untouchable” right now, because of the potential (and let’s be honest, it’s just potential -lots of it – at this time).

Siding with Milo on this one, though I think a pro forma one game suspension wouldn’t be super damaging to Rose’s psyche if he was indeed fragile–and it would save the Knicks a lot of grief in the media and post-game interviews. There are a lot of other just laughable facets of how the Knicks handled this debacle, though. Foremost being: Phil fucking Jackson.

We don’t have enough context. But if his absence was not for something severe, like a mental breakdown or a very ill family member that caused in Rose extreme emotional distress to the point of losing his mind, he should have the book thrown at him. I’m skeptical of the idea that it was a breakdown though, given how he was in apparently good spirits at the practice facility the next day. If he was really damaged, don’t you think the Knicks would say, “hey, you’re free to take some time off for personal reasons if you need it”? That being said, with the Knicks, anything is possible, so we should wait for more context. But the alibi is fishy.

And yes, KOQ and Lee are probably our primary trade assets that aren’t the young ones, and we should be looking to move them at deadline (we should be looking to move everyone at deadline besides KP and Willy, honestly.)

So Isola is reporting that Rose was an emotional wreck on Monday and that’s why he went AWOL. Obviously if he has a serious mental health issue that changes how I feel about his disappearance — but it does not change the accountability portion of the problem. Throwing someone with a serious mental health issue back out on the court doesn’t do anyone any favors. Get him help. Give him a paid leave of absence. Rescind the $500 fine (ridiculous anyway) since that would not necessarily be appropriate in a mental “break” sort of situation.

(to be honest I don’t really believe the emotional wreck thing. seems highly unlikely that he would be disturbed to that extent, then be back and in good spirits the next freaking day)

Isn’t emotional wreck such a meaningless term? What even does that mean? Did he have the vapors? Was he barking like a dog? Was he sobbing uncontrollably for no apparent reason? This whole thing is so fake to me. To me, between the lines he does not like the way Melo handles himself on court or that it is/.was Melo’s team. Why else has he been beating the no defense/no effort drum (other than because it is true). Melo cannot be happy to think he has finally gotten a “baller” on the team only to find that this baller generally is not a passer when he is a ballin. Then to be sat out for the fourth quarter and have Ron friggin white guy with 70s haircut undrafted dude Baker help lead an improbable comeback. it’s really hard to give a crap. Melo, Dolan, Jackson, Rose: they all deserve each other.

Police called to the Staten Island Ferry when a frequent passenger known to the crew as “Caribbean Rube” attempted suicide near the St. George station while dressed in summer clothes and carrying a Derrick Rose life-size inflatable doll.

Caribbean Rube was taken to Creedmore Hospital for psychiatric evaluation.

I agree Nick C., and why the hell was he an emotional wreck in the first place? Was he always in a fragile emotional state and we never heard anything about it?

Or did he become an emotional wreck because of losing / being benched / issues with Hornacek or Melo or any other teammate?

the first option is highly unlikely, Rose has no history of being a Royce White type of guy, who had fairly well documented mental issues; and if it is the second option, then he is in for an even worse time, because the pressure is only going to go up and it’s even more unlikely that this team will become good out of nowhere.

in any of the aforementioned situations it’s a terrible decision to start him today against Philly, or even keep him in the team.

If Rose’s mental health issues are so debilitating that they prevent him from sending a text message, there’s no way he should be playing in this game. I’m not being sarcastic.

That he’s playing in this game, was at the facility the next day, etc., definitely makes it seems like that’s the spin. Regardless, he was a shitty player who shouldn’t be signed before this happened and nothing on that front has changed.

I honestly think you guys are overlooking the devastating emotional impact suffered by Rose as a result of his ex-girlfriend raping him and his two friends two years ago.
Rose’s game has not been the same since. Penetration, a key part of his game, is ineffective because when he takes it near the hole he starts dribbling, making him impotent on offense.

A few years ago I had the “opportunity” to move from the NYC area to Sacramento for a different and in many ways better job. Even under the best of circumstances I’d be sort of embarrassed to admit this, but not sooooo far down the list of reasons we didn’t end up going was that being a Knicks fan is literally central to my being, and I wanted my kids to grow up in Knicks country. Now I wonder whether it would have been better to live in Kings country.

What have (and the rest of us) done to deserve this? I’m a freaking Jets and Knicks fan. What is wrong with me?!?

Frank, I moved from New York to the Bay Area 16 years ago. I sat through a decade’s worth of awful Warriors teams, going to games under the Cohan regime, but still keeping my Knicks fandom at heart.

But things have changed. New ownership for the Dubs and the obvious successes have really changed perspectives. Seeing how a well-run team operates day-in and day-out leaves me still as a Knicks fan, but distance allows me to watch them as some sort of distorted and surreal social experiment. As in, I CAN’T BELIEVE AN ENTIRE ORGANIZATION OF WELL-PAID PROFESSIONALS CONTINUE TO MAKE THE WRONG CHOICES OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE? IS THIS A JOKE? That’s what happens when you move away.

I can’t imagine what it’s like to live in New York and be in the middle of it.

The good news, it seems, is that the Phil’s gamble paid off and the Knicks did wind up getting “MVP Rose” after all.

Who knew that it really stood for “Most Vulnerable Psyche”?

Seriously, at what point did this guy become such a delicate little flower? Aren’t we talking about the same Derrick Rose who was the centerpiece of an Adidas ad campaign lauding him for the grit, determination, and – yes – mental toughness he demonstrated in fighting his way back from a truly devastating injury?

Sorry, I’m just not buying the “Poor Derrick deserves our pity, not scorn” narrative that appears to have been hastily concocted over the past 48 hours. Yes, he would have my sympathies if any of us had seen genuine evidence that his unexplained disappearance had been due to something more than a prima donna athlete butthurt over a fourth Q benching in a nationally televised game. Until presented with evidence to the contrary, I’d daresay that his psyche is likely healthier than that of the average Knick fan, mercilessly subjected to this unending shitshow for the better part of two decades and counting.

I too am disappointed by Rose even if there is a legit family emergency he could simply let the team know. It could be a little of both…ie, he had a real emergency but was/is also pissed at the team and throwing a hissy fit about being benched in the 4th quarter. In his mind he might have been thinking “I got a real problem here and they aren’t treating me right so screw them.”

HOWEVER, I do not agree with the idea that the Knicks are handling this poorly. I mean, its a tough situation bc you want Rose to appear to be valuable and working out well (even if the team is losing) so that there are possible trade deadline options for you. IE, Rubio or Dragic. I would do those deals (if picks were not involved…ok, maybe a second rounder) bc I think you get with both of them pass first PGs. Melo is not waiving the NTC as far as we can tell and even if he does and gets traded either way we’re gonna not be great the next few years so getting Rubio or Dragic at least KP has a decent PG to work with while our draft picks develop. I do not mind taking back salary/years to clear Melo cause again we aren’t competing the next few years either way.

So I actually think its ok PJ has been silent on this and they are brushing this under the rug. Making a bigger deal out of it might be the thing to do with a player who is here on multiple years but with Rose and the trade deadline coming up, why bring it more attention and stretch it out? If he comes back tonight and plays well then the narrative immediately shifts to he played hard to make up for it to his team,

I understand that the Knicks don’t want to suspend Rose indefinitely and crush his trade value (if he still has any), but IMO the way they’re handling this is just dumb. The front office is losing respect from everyone else in the league. Jackson should have spoken by now. Free agents and executives will probably have this kind of dysfunction in my mind when time comes to sign with some franchise. It’s “ok” if you have a FO that makes poor basketball decisions signing-wise, but it’s in another level of incompetency letting a “star” player going missing without notice and only fining him in $500 fucking bucks! I think this whole episode is exposing in a bad way all the Kniks management, including the coach staff, by the way. If I’m Hornacek, NO WAY Derrick Rose starts against Philly tonight.

Everybody would understand a 1-game suspension for Rose, even himself (I hope!). Instead of a double shaming, the franchise would be criticized only because of what happened on Monday, not for what happened yesterday and what will happen tonight when Rose takes the floor as a starter (OMG). This is the Kings way of operating. I honestly thought Phil and his staff were more intelligent to not copy it. #smh

@ 47 – those are fair points but if Rose isn’t coming back then why extend the drama any longer than needed. If he is indeed such a fragile snowflake, suspending him if he feels he had a legit family emergency might just make him cause more of a scene, you know? Like what if he refuses to play or come back or mouths off at the media? For every action there is a reaction. I guess my point is that there really aren’t a lot of good options in this situation so just letting it slide and moving on and being quiet about it might in fact be the course of action that causes the least damage.

Honestly the only team that might take a sniff at him is Sacramento because they perceive they need a PG and Vlade is the GM.

If I’m Steve Mills I call Vlade every day.

And the reason you hold people accountable in an organization is so the rest of the organization runs the way it’s supposed to. Otherwise you find yourself signing some guy’s brother on the team just to make him happy. (that’s just theoretical of course)

I don’t care that much that Rose skipped a game or that he wasn’t punished, tbh.

Optics are bad and always have been for the Knicks (hey Kurt Rambis’s Twitter, Dolan’s angry fan email, “goink,” etc.) but I don’t really care that much either, so long as every action leads to Rose being off the roster in July.

Like what if he refuses to play or come back or mouths off at the media? For every action there is a reaction. I guess my point is that there really aren’t a lot of good options in this situation so just letting it slide and moving on and being quiet about it might in fact be the course of action that causes the least damage.

What would the Knicks lose by waiving this Rose outright?

Would they play any worse? I posit they would gain respect around the league, showing everyone that accountability exists in NY. On the other hand, the cowardly, absurd handling you advocate only solidifies the reputation of New York being one of the worst-managed sports franchises ever.

And no, there is ZERO chance the Knicks can get anything of value by trading Rose. Stop the and delusion.

When I read that Derrick Rose saw that he was getting calls from the Knicks FO but refused to pick up the phone because he did not want to talk with anyone, I realized that this guy really is the embodiment of the AAU/1&done/Chicago-savior syndrome that others said he was. His reaction says to me that he would not take the risk that he would have to explain his reasons for leaving, as opposed to presenting the Knicks with a fait accompli.

Leadership is a skill. It is developed by practicing leadership at every opportunity.

Derrick Rose is not a leader. He is no longer a star player. He continues to play the game as if he is a star (driving to the rim without concern for floor balance, playing matador defense, tunnel vision on the rim and ignoring open teammates). He is exactly who we thought he was — a horrible fit for the Knicks.

Rubio is another “more than the box score” kind of guy (and the box score likes him a fair amount–or at least WP and BPM do.) I’d be happy to have him on my team.

The only possible D-Rose trades are to Sacto or to Minne if Thibs is desperate for a guy who was on his Bulls team. The only one I can actually imagine happening is a D-Rose trade to Sacto. Let’s hope, but I’m not optimistic.

yeah, Sacramento is probably the only team in the league stupid enough, and with matching salaries, to pull the trigger on a Rose trade.

in the end I still think his contract will run out and a team will take a flyer on him on a smaller contract (hope hope hope it’s not the fucking Knicks), but it would be stupid not to call Thibs and the folks leading the Sacto circus.

I want to keep O’Quinn because Noah is not going to last his first year, much less the whole four. Three months into a 4-year contract and we’re already salivating over amnesty provisions. That’s the sign of a disgustingly inept front office.

I want to keep O’Quinn because Noah is not going to last his first year, much less the whole four. Three months into a 4-year contract and we’re already salivating over amnesty provisions. That’s the sign of a disgustingly inept front office.

True, we need Kyle if we’re trying to be as good as possible, but if we’re trading Rose I think we might be going the fire-sale route, in which case O’Quinn is our best asset. We only have him signed for the year after this (year 4 is a player option that he’ll in all likelihood decline) after which he will either walk for nothing or resign with us at market value or better (the Iron Law of Knicks Free Agency.) It’s best to get what we can for him now if we don’t plan on competing for the next 3-4 years.

This back to back is an historic tanking opportunity for us. The worst team in the league followed by a team without its star player and an important rotation player who we acquired Rose and Noah from? If we lost both (especially if Rose plays poorly–pretty likely), the Knicks will be crucified by the sports media and heads will roll. We can only hope.

I mean,they sell tickets purporting to be a professional basketball organization. I think, at this stage, we have enough objective evidence that not only are they not that but that they’ve actively worked to be anything BUT professional. This is too organized to be simple negligence. This is a conspiracy of epic proportions.

Listen, the FDA says that you can’t say that snake oil cures cancer so then why can the Knicks say that they’re a pro basketball team? The FTC HAS to have a rule against this. That doesn’t seem fair to me.

This could be the first of it’s kind class action lawsuit against a fakest of fake sports franchises. Who’s with me?

Otherwise, I say Rose and Melo for Boogie, Vlade (I’m certain that he would say yes if you talked fast enough), and some stale donuts.

After this whole situation, I can’t see any team making a move involving Rose on the trade deadline, unless the Knicks offer something else, like O’Quinn. It’s clear to everybody (wishful thinking) that the Knicks will not resign Rose after this shitshow, so a smart franchise should wait to court him in the offseason. The Kings are always out there, but even they would be careful in this situation (if you have Cousins and Barnes, why bring more headaches?), and Thibs has too many point guards already (Dunn and Jones, besides Rubio, of course). Last, but not least, I can’t see how Rose would be a plus to any semi-decent team, if he starts (maybe Orlando?), so this is another obstacle. Actually, I think the Knicks should look for tanking teams to make a trade, as Rose would surely help their cause (cue to Pat Riley rubbing his hands and dreaming of another Lonzo in Miami). :)

“Caribbean Reub” is nowhere near the Staten Island Ferry right now but he is wearing summer clothing. He is warm and very relaxed and is fully expecting DRose to go off tonight, the beloved Knicks to make the playoffs, and for the great Phil Jackson to add 3 great draft choices in the offseason. Believe!

Tony Atlas (boxing trainer) once did an interview about boxing where he was describing the difference between champions and very good fighters. Basically, when you are in a tough fight you can either dig in, fight harder, and be willing to take the risk of getting embarrassed and knocked out or you can find a way out and quit. By quitting he did not necessary mean literally quitting, though some boxers do exactly that. He also meant looking for a graceful way to get out (a feigned injury, making the referee subtly aware you want out so he will end it and then pretending to protest his decision, making your corner aware and then protesting, hitting low repeatedly so you get DQ’d etc..) He even brought up Mike Tyson’s ear biting incident. Tyson wanted out and that was the way he chose to get DQ’d because he knew he was going to lose again.

Melo is the typical quitter.

He does not want to fight back when someone is getting the best of him or if the Knicks are losing and the pressure is building. As soon as that happens the reports of his bad knees, shoulder etc… come up. He starts limping around and rubbing his shoulder to signal to everyone that he’s not feeling 100%. He gets himself thrown out of games. He’s a flat out loser. He’s Eddie Felson from The Hustler before he found his character “on a bathroom floor in Kentucky”.

according to Spotrac, Minneota has about 9.7 million cap space… Rose + O’Quinn would amount to 26 million, and Rubio alone earns 12 million, which would make a difference of 14 million, 9.7 of which would be Minnesota’s cap.

the issue is that the Wolves only have Cole they could trade in this scenario (he makes 7.6 million) or Garnett’s expiring contract, and both would be more valuable to them than unloading Pekovic’s contract, which was a priority for them some time ago… they could include Jordan Hill’s 4 million contract and it would probably work, but he’s more valuable than Pekovic too.

Whenever I look at consolidated metrics, I invariably find a few outliers that seem way off my perception of the players. IMO, Wins Produced tends to overrate very low usage high efficiency scorers. PER tends to overrate high usage inefficient scorers and solid defenders. Adjusted Plus Minus tends to be too volatile. I’m less certain of the pattern, but Win Shares seems to miss the mark once in awhile also. I’m not saying my “eye test” is so great. In fact, I know it’s not. That’s why I look at all the metrics. But I think most of us are good enough to tell when a metric is so far off it can’t possibly be right. I don’t seem to feel that way very often when it comes to BPM.

I can’t believe people think the Knicks are handling this situation the right way. A mentally/emotionally unstable person is a prime candidate for long-term suspension, so is a spoiled little brat. Both types need time outs. Rose is either one or the other. What a joke of a franchise.

Bruno, I am going by the ESPN trade machine. I put in Rose for Rubio with no fill, and it worked straight up. If you add O’Quinn, I don’t know what would happen, but I don’t want to add him in, so I didn’t try that

Oakman, there’s certainly a case to be made to let Rose’s contract expire. But if we do trade him, then we need a point guard. Otherwise we have Vujacic, Baker and Jennings, and that’s it. Personally, I think Rose has value to some teams, so I’d like to get something for him. I have mixed feelings about Rubio, because he makes $14m. I know that’s only 14% of the cap of so and is probably a normal starting point guards salary nowadays, but i just don’t know if he’s worth it. Minnesota has a lot of players to re-sign, and some alternatives to him already, so I think they’d like to unload him and get the salary space back. They would get it back when Rose’s contract expired, so maybe that would appeal to them enough yhey would sweeten the deal.

Rubio is definitely not mediocre… he’s actually a much better player than Rose in pretty much all aspects of the game, he’s clearly a better passer, a better defender (much better with steals), also a slightly better rebounder… and for all the overreaction about him not being able to shoot, his ts% is better than Rose’s (.520 for him and .503 for Rose).

he’s also only 26 and he’s under control through the next 3 years on a very manageable contract (even cheap, if you consider the cap increase after the CBA).

I would rather the Knicks get one of the elite prospects in the draft, obviously, but the “Rubio can’t shoot” narrative has painted him as a below-average player and that’s not true at all.

if you want advanced stats, Rubio has a .105 ws/48 against Rose’s .048;
0.6 BPM against Rose’s -2.6;
.203 wp48 against Rose’s -.001 (wp48 puts him as the 10th best PG in the league, and that’s considering Harden and Giannis as PGs)

No and yes. He hasn’t done well despite being paid a fortune, so no. On the other hand, he stepped into a pile s**t by taking his job, and even gave up his girlfriend for it, and compared to the universe of Knicks GMs I’m familiar with, he’s above average, so that’s a yes.

To be fair, he’s the team president while Mills is GM. And they’re both awful.

As a someone who just loathed him as the coach of the Bulls (and the Lakers), who thought he was lucky to have all-time great rosters and Tex Winter… I do find myself taking perverse satisfaction in the Knicks being the team that tarnishes his legacy. I just hope we get a few good draft selections out of it.

There’s no question that Rubio is better than Rose, but that’s not the decision point. The question is whether two years of Rubio at $14.5 mil per is better than whatever else we can get with that cap space. Obviously that depends on how bullish you are on their free agent chances.

There was no bigger Rubio fan than me his first couple years in the league. But it’s fair to say his career has stagnated. Even though he’s not old, I don’t see him making any real strides. He is what he is — a strong defensive player and willing passer with great court vision who can’t hit layups or shoot from anywhere on the floor. Although his TS% is merely bad and not awful, that is being propped up entirely by his great FT% and high FT/FG ratio. He is like Calderon in that he rarely shoots. As he becomes less athletic and more stationary, his ability to set up teammates will diminish greatly, just like Calderon. But since he can’t shoot like Calderon, his offensive value will plummet. He’ll become a shorter Omer Asik.

The advanced stats have always liked him, but I think he represents a rare case where they are a little misleading. With him as their PG, the Wolves have won 26, 31, 40, 16, and 29 games. This year, on what was supposed to be a playoff contender, they’re on pace for 26 wins. So I’m dubious that he is a hidden gem.

It also matters that Minnesota is one of the only teams in the league that MIGHT accept Noah in a trade (because of the Thibs connection). Any Noah trade would almost certainly involve Rubio. So considering that a Rubio-Rose swap doesn’t really move the needle for us long-term, I’d rather keep the powder dry for a Rubio-Noah swap.

he’s a very good passer, which means he’ll still have value in transition (which he helps by being a pretty good defender) and he’s able to get to the line decently well.

spacing the floor is not only about everyone being able to shoot… it’s also about motion, about good screens, players making cuts, etc. Rubio can help in most of those departments… Minnesota has a crap team and is 11th in offensive rating while giving Rubio 31 minutes per game.

last year Minnesota scored 104.3 points per 48 with him on the court; 97.2 without him…

I do think he stagnated a bit, but I still think he could be a very productive PG and is cheap and under control for 3 years. If the Knicks wins 37 wins and misses on all the PG prospects in the draft, I’d much rather get Rubio on a decent deal than whatever we can get on free agency (Jrue Holiday for example)

and who thought Minnesota was a playoff contender? must be the same people who think Wiggins is a star, probably.

It’s true, we aren’t any better than before, and have endured a 14 win season to get here. But Phil didn’t tear down a winning team to get worse like Walsh did, or make trades like the Bargnani one (Grunwald) or the McGrady one (I forgot who),or strip the team of future assets and have a major scandal like Thomas did. I realize it’s a low bar, but can you name three Knicks GMs or Team presidents from the last twenty years or so that you thought were better?

And he might learn on the job. After all, he wasn’t a great coach to start with. He managed the Albany Patroons for several years first.

As I’ve said many times, I’d take Rubio in a deal to get rid of Rose. The Knicks aren’t going to burn it down and rebuild around KP and Willy. Who knows what kind of price the PGs this summer will go for?

Jackson has been a thoroughly mediocre to below average team builder. He gets props for KP, not giving away 1st rounders, and a few nice cheap signings. Not much else. The Noah deal looks mighty bad.

I’m as glad as anyone that we haven’t trade first rounders, but it’s not like Jackson has shown a particularly high regard for player development. Jerian Grant has a .081 WS48 this year (better than both of our point guards, though I think Jennings has probably been better) and Galloway has his 3PT% up to 38% (rebounds and assists are down, but that looks like a consequence of playing with Holiday). We ditched two guys with a perfectly reasonable chance of becoming at least rotation-level players on a good team to take a presumably failed swing at being the Cavs’ appetizer.

With the numbers mentioned by others, I’m starting to think Rubio could be a real good idea here. It’d be nice to have a PG who hits open guys naturally and that can defend the opposing lead guard. As bad as the team’s perimeter D is, if he can go a long way to rectifying that, then his shooting issues won’t matter as much to me.

I looked at our record: it’s almost as “easy” for the team to get right and get back into the 5-8 slots as it is for them to tank into potentially the top 10 of the draft.

He’s also done a horrendous job at being the face of the franchise. How’s it goink, LeBron’s posse, the breakup tweet, and now his complete absence as the Rose fiasco unfolds. I know the guy has all those rings and all that, but he was always a douchey guy, and now he’s an out-of-touch clown of a douchey guy.

He failed to make this team more respectable and less of a joke. The Knicks are as much of a punchline as ever. He should step down. This didn’t work out, and I say that in past tense.

I’d much rather have a PG who shoots .520 TS% @ 9.5 FGA/100 poss. than one who shoots .503 TS% @ 24 FGA/100 poss.

Rubio’s lack of shooting has not prevented him from being one of the best passing PG in the league. He seems to defy the “smell test” when it comes to the “obvious”: you don’t need to be a great shooter to create space for your teammates or hit them where they can score.

Plus, the steals. My god, I’d love to have a PG who can actually give fits to the Kyries and Lowrys of the NBA.

There is word coming out that Rose has indicated that he will be looking for a max deal in the offseason. It was always probably what he was looking for, but the timing of the revelation is hilarious. Suffice to say twitters reaction has been hilarious.

That’s going to make him hard to trade, unless to some team that desperately wants cap space next summer. The only teams I can think of that will want cAp space are the Clippers and Miami. That’s not promising for a trade.

Given the very wide discrepancy between various metrics in measuring player value, it’s almost a 100% certainty that all models get some of the values very wrong.

The eye test fails pretty badly when measuring small differences, but when Wins Produced (one of the better metrics in most cases) rates some player as being among the better players in the NBA but they can’t get off the bench, are soon out of the NBA or struggling to get playing time in the D league, you can visually see how unskilled they are other then dunking the ball and getting rebounds, and all the other metrics say the player is bad, you sort of know it’s not all the coaches, other players, your eyes and other metrics that are wrong. It’s WP that’s wrong. I don’t find a lot of cases like that using any of the metrics, but I find the fewest looking at BPM. That makes me trust it more in the marginal measurements I could never measure visually.

To be clear, I am not picking on WP. It’s the same story with PER, WinShares etc…

Here we are again. I guess the difference between good and bad is between the ears. Drose and Melo seem to have all the talent in the world but the maturity level is on a fifth grade level. I had a girl in my fifth grade band class that acted like Derrick a few weeks ago. It’s what I do everyday. Teach kids to be adults. Rarely do I run into this kind of behavior even from them. The silent treatment? Really? Not even a text? It’s so bad that you have lockjaw then somehow are you back at practice?I’ve literally never seen such immaturity from a pro athlete. And on the same night, with a “leadership” void Me7o gets himself kicked out. I’m done with him too. He wrecked the team that he could have come to as an FA and we’ve never recovered. We might have had we not had an inept idiot owner and a catatonic has been as a gm. God if I could only like a different team. I still see Clyde, Ewing and Oak when I look at the uniform. What a pity that NYK has fallen so far. Im scared to watch. If they lose to PHI I may pass out. I thought that we could get to 50 wins and then the Suns game happened and now we can’t beat anyone. Even KP looks lost. This team makes everyone decent that they have look like crap and ex players look great for other teams. I must have been an a hole in a former life.