The Toyota Prius c hybrid is available in four grades, ranging from $18,950 to $23,230

At the North American International Auto Show (NAIAS) last month, Toyota proudly unveiled its new 2012 Prius c hybrid. The automaker boasted that the latest Prius member would be both fuel efficient and affordable, and today, the actual price figures have been released.

The starting manufacturer's suggested retail price (MSRP) for the 2012 Prius c hybrid is $18,950. However, the Prius c will be available in four grades, offering more features the higher the grade. The Prius c One has an MSRP of $18,950, while the Prius c Two is priced at $19,900, the Prius c Three is priced at $ 21,635 and the Prius c Four is priced at $23,230.

The Toyota Prius c One offers the basics like remote keyless entry, automatic climate control and a steering wheel with controls such as Bluetooth, audio and other options. Upgrading to the Prius c Two gets you a six-speaker audio system, a center console with armrest and storage, cruise control, engine immobilizer, a cargo area tonneau cover and a 60/40 split fold-down rear seat.

For those willing to bump up to the Prius c Three, drivers receive a plethora of technology for both entertainment and information such as a 6.1-inch touchscreen, Sirius XM Satellite Radio capability, HD Radio with iTunes Tagging, a Display Audio system with Navigation and Entune, advanced voice recognition, and a USB port with iPod connectivity. The Three also allows drivers to add 15-inch alloy wheels for an extra $390 and a power tilt/slide moonroof with sunshade for an extra $850.

The crème de la crème of the Prius c hybrids is the Four, with added 15-inch, 8-spoke alloy wheels, color-keyed heated power outside mirrors with turn signals, integrated fog lamps, and Softex-trimmed heated front seats. Prius c Four drivers can also choose to add a power tilt/slide moonroof with sliding shade for an extra $850, a 16-inch, 8-spoke alloy wheel package with P195/50R16 tires for an extra $300, or a 16-inch alloy wheel package that includes P195/50R16 tires and the moonroof with sliding sunshade for an extra $1,150.

"It's sized, priced, styled and packaged to appeal to young buyers on a budget who, until now, have probably found a hybrid experience out of reach," said Jim Lentz, Toyota USA president and CEO. "That's why we view the Prius as a gateway vehicle and a key component of our Prius strategy."

If GM really wants to sell electric vehicles they need to be down in this price range. Heck if anyone wants to really sell EVs of any flavor they need to be in this price range. Even one with limited travel distance like the Leaf might sell if it is less than $20k before any tax rebates (anyone who need cars in the lower price range probably wouldn't benefit from the tax rebate anyhow).

In a SIMPLE economic table leftists (liberals) all the way on the left side are totalitarians/dictatorships. On the right side (conservatives) all the way is anarchy. Democrats (traditionally) want more govt and a farther reach, Republicans want less. So, to revise your statement, there are no conservatives there at all, they're 100% leftist/dictatorship (way beyond liberal). Just remember I said in a SIMPLE line. Most people fall in the middle, neither truly a conservative or a liberal.

The Left is not liberal. The Left is progressive...a very different thing, as a true liberal (if you look up the meaning of liberalism, and the definition of it anywhere BUT the US) sees government intervention as a deprivation of the liberty and property of its citizens. Most progressives like to label themselves as liberal, though very few of them actually are. Socially liberal yes (though many that label themselves as such are not...such as our President), but economically they seem to be for ever-expanding control of the state in every single aspect of life.

Most conservatives (which I would put in the Republican camp) are not even really that economically conservative, either. They tend to favor a large, empire-building state...which costs money and a large government.

It's really 2 sides fighting over which sacred item to keep (defense or entitlements), when the economic reality is both are the drivers against any kind of sustainable country. Both have to go for there to be any real recovery.

The true liberals are those that want government intervention in economics and in social policy at an absolute minimum, aka Libertarians. Many Libertarians are not against government, just a smaller role of a central government, as envisioned in the Constitution. State-level government efforts, including universal healthcare, have widespread support, believe it or not. The thing is, most universal healthcare ideas are pretty much in line with the "lets have it and pretend its free" school of thought.

Yes, thats what I would like to see- libertarian when it comes to personal freedoms- conservative when it comes to government spending- strict regulations on business otherwise they abuse the crap out of the system as has been shown over and over again- progressive on taxes- not huge on welfare except when absolutely necessary

I heard a pollster report that 1/3 to 1/2 of Ron Pauls voters could end up voting for Obama, since he obviously wont win the nomination. That's stunning. The two are on the opposite side of the planet in terms of policy views, on absolutely everything. What must be going on inside the heads of that 1/3 of his supporters absolutely baffles me. Support the evisceration of government one day, the endless expansion of it the next?

They are probably just afraid of getting stuck with Santorum. Obama may be horrible, but he doesnt begin to approach the Franco/Mussolini level of Catholic Fascist insanity that Santorum does. His obsession with controlling the sex lives of everyone else should land him in a sanitarium.

Sounds largely like the majority of the Democrat party. They want to be left alone in their bedroom, want to micromanage business, stick it to the rich, and on the surface don't think people should get something for nothing even if in practice thats how it ends up working out.

Heard an interesting bit of an interview with Home Depots founder the other day. He created almost 4000 millionaires among early employees due to going public on the stock market early and employee stock purchases. Just average working Joes. Said it's impossible to replicate now, Sarbanes-Oxley went so far in trying (and failing) to prevent another Enron that small firms find it nearly impossible to go public early on the way Home Depot did.

Are you talking about Democrats the politicians or Democrats the people?

Because the politicians sure as hell don't view welfare as something as "only when necessary" and aren't conservative in spending.

And ultra strict regulations = less business and jobs. As you can see today. When the government is doing things like telling banks that it can only charge so much for a debit card transaction, regulations are too strict.

Have you just crawled out from under a rock? Religious people have been trying to control the sex lives of others since the dawn of monotheism. Santorum wants to ban all nonreproductive sex, plenty of conservatives support antisodomy laws, the Catholic Church is constantly trying to keep impoverished villagers around the world ignorant of family planning or AIDS prevention, and even the unfortunately Morman writer of Ender's Game Orson Scott Card has written articles in which he has stated he believes anyone openly homosexual should be imprisoned for damaging family values. This doesnt even account for the various attempts to control sex around the world such as female circumcision.

There are people that think what you do in the bedroom is their business.

The way the scale works is anarchists are on the zero government end of the scale and communists/fascists/dictators/monarchs etc are at the total government end of the scale.

Republicans are at the 10% government point of the scale. Just secure my rights and shut off type of thing.

Socialists are at about the 95% government point on the scale where they dont believe in owning everything in the country but they do think that they should own the means of production (like schools, hospitals and any construction companies for instance).

Consider that some of the feature listed for moving from the 19k Prius c 1 to the 20k Prius c 2 include cruise control and wowhee 6 speakers!

Prius c gets significant better mileage than the Versa/Fiesta/Fits of the world. But at a 3,000-4,000 price difference.

Its got the Honda Insight beat hands down though... but that sold all of 1,500 units last month in 3 different body styles.

The question when faced with niche cars is always whether the sales target is appropriate. If Toyota is thinking about moving 30,000-50,000 a year... its possible (though I feel unlikely). If Toyota is thinking 100,000 a year... that's just folly.

quote: The fuel economy is nice though if it's accurate. Hard to see why anyone would buy a Volt when you can get a Prius at these prices.

Why talk about the Volt? This car doesn't even come close to competing with the Volt.

Volt is larger, faster, better standard features, better optional features (heck the standard Volt is essentially better featured then the best Prius c), has the ability to drive on electricity alone, and has a more iconic shape. (Does this make the Volt a good bargin? No. But if you take a drive in a Volt versus the Prius c, I think its hard to honestly say someone with the money to buy a Volt will settle for a Prius c)

I don't see the Prius c doing well in the United States. It has a relatively small price gap (equipped similarly) versus the normal Prius (whose MPG it barely beats) while being an inferior car to the Prius in essentially every way. It loses the "Prius" iconic shape and looks like any other B-Segment hatch (a market that is not very large here in the US). Its equipped like an eco-box, but looking at the Yaris there is around a 4,000 dollar premium for the "Hybrid" feature that I think negates the only real advantage (price) that most B-segment cars have...

Essentially the Prius c is for people who want the Prius to be smaller and have less features. Total TCO difference versus the larger, faster, more feature ladden Prius is going to come out to be ~1 dollar a day or less for most usage patterns. In other situations, US citizens tend to go upwards on that type of price difference.

Now in other markets where the 1.5L engine carries less tax burden, streets are smaller, and there is less highway travel I could see the Prius c doing well... like Japan. (in Japan, even the Insight sells well)

1. I am not here to convince people to buy a Volt. I am simply pointing out an ECOBOX B-Segment Hybrid is not a valid competitor to a C-Segment nearlux Plug-in. Its Apples and Oranges. They don't even live in the same state. I am here to talk about the Prius c (which by volume the majority of my post was about)

2. You misquoted me. I could see a potential Volt buying purchasing the standard Prius. Those are reasonable competitors. This Prius c is -not-.

3. TCO is far more important than initial purchase price

4. Claiming the Volt is a 47,000 dollar car is like claiming a 3-series is a 60,000 dollar car. It's not even honest hyperbole.

5. I can still not buy a Volt to my desire specification at MSRP from a local dealer.

This is true for those who have the money to buy a vehicle and want to look at long term expenses. For those who are on a very limited budget, initial purchase price can be just at important at TCO since TCO is spread out over time while the initial cost must be absorbed more quickly. Most consumers purchase on impulse where initial cost wins out over looking down the road. If an impulse buyer sees a car for $18k and one beside it for $26K, even if the more expensive will cost less to own after 5-10 years they will probably buy the cheaper one anyhow since they are not going to spend the time to crunch the numbers first. Not the best way to buy things, but sadly the most common.

quote: First you sound like a car person - c-segment, b-segment, who talks like that about car buying?

Fine. The Prius C is a tiny car. Much smaller than most cars sold in the US. Its smaller than a Versa, a 11,000 dollar car. Pretty such most people will care about that.

quote: Thrid - the Volt is over $40,000 - what world do you live in?

If someone said, Volt is a 40,000+ car. I agree. If someone says the Volt is a 47,000+ car.. well that is just dishonest. To get 47,000 you must check every single option, including chrome wheels. Its the same as saying a Civic is a 29,000+ car, a Prius a 39,000+ car.

quote: Second, who cares what the price you'll get in 10 years, yes 10 years, after owning the car?

Your saying "who cares what price I pay for using the car, I just want it to appear cheap." Really? You don't care how much it costs to use you car? Btw, I got this great wallet. Its free. But it destroys money. Its free though, so you can't get cheaper than free.

You're such an apologist it's not even funny. Come clean now, do you work for GM or something?

quote: If someone says the Volt is a 47,000+ car.. well that is just dishonest. To get 47,000 you must check every single option, including chrome wheels.

How is it "dishonest"? Anyway this is really immature nitpicking and you know it. You're THAT biased that you think quibbling over a few thousand dollars either way makes a difference?

You also apparently think the tax subsidy doesn't reflect the true cost of the vehicle. It does. The TRUE cost of the Volt, depending on your state, is more around 46-47K. You're the one being dishonest.

quote: Your saying "who cares what price I pay for using the car, I just want it to appear cheap." Really? You don't care how much it costs to use you car? Btw, I got this great wallet. Its free. But it destroys money. Its free though, so you can't get cheaper than free.

Okay this is nuts. Look, people don't buy cars because at some point they will "break even" or come ahead. Everyone knows nothing depreciates faster than an automobile, the minute you drive it off the lot. You NEVER get ahead! Also industry data compiled over years and years shows that most people who buy new cars, only keep that car around 5 years. So buying an extremely overpriced economy car, because at 10+ years in the future, you'll start saving money...that's just...you can't be serious. What are you talking about?

quote: How is it "dishonest"? Anyway this is really immature nitpicking and you know it.

It is dishonest when the same author espouses base MSRP without delivery prices for other automobiles and does so with intention of hard selling a point. If you want to claim the cost of a Volt to me as the purchasers is 47,000 K and up, I'd like some to see documentation not just your "assertion" its true.

quote: Also industry data compiled over years and years shows that most people who buy new cars, only keep that car around 5 years.

Quick trips to Kellys Blue Book and Autotrader.com will show your Hybrids have even higher resale -percentages- than the gasoline counterparts in -real- life.

quote: So again, economically, the Volt makes no sense.

Yes. But the logic that states this also states the same about any car. As you yourself just stated.

People buy cars and new cars because of the value proposition. They feel like they get adequate value for their purchase. Most people have basic instincts about TCO whether they crunch the numbers or not.

The facts? The Volt is not significantly more expensive car to own than a Prius, Civic, Corolla, etc when these cars have the same feature set applied to them. Does this mean it makes a good -value- proposition to you Reclaimer? I doubt it. You strike me as a person who does not care about 5 years of OnStar service or the ability to remote start you car based on a timer. But to claim that the Volt is the "same" as cars that don't have these features is retarded. The value proposition of a Volt is significantly different than most economy cars. As far as I am aware the Volt makes a UNIQUE value proposition. Its the only Car made in AMERICA that is able to be run 100% on AMERICAN made fuel sources from AMERICAN raw materials. Ironically, the Volt is probably the most Red State automobile in existence. Its American made automobile that expands American manufacturing into new fields with the potential for export while shifting large energy consumption from foreign sourced Oil to domestically sourced Coal and Natural Gas. Plus, it can be your only car and allow you to drive coast to coast.

Which is evident from the moment you sit in one. Go ahead Reclaimer, you seem to hate the Volt. Go sit in one and test drive it. Then you can at least point to real experiences rather than what the talking heads on TV told you was reality. For real experience, go drive the Prius as well. I mean, the Prius is the main alternative to the Volt.

People buy cars and new cars because of the value proposition. They feel like they get adequate value for their purchase. Most people have basic instincts about TCO whether they crunch the numbers or not.

Over half of the car buyers do it based on one factor the amount of the monthly payment, and secondly on the price.

Look it up, I know that's right.

Yes good value for your money is somewhat correct, but if I can get a car for even 1/2 the price of the Volt, that's the one for the majority of buyers.

From your posting I can see you don't fit in with the cheap car crowd and probably could afford the Volt.Well go ahead and buy it.No one esle will - that's the point we are trying to get you to see!Most everyone can see that the Volt is NOT a good buy!

What is there added on to it that makes it $20,000 better than the Prius? I didn't say better, I said $20,000 better!

quote: From your posting I can see you don't fit in with the cheap car crowd and probably could afford the Volt. Well go ahead and buy it. No one esle will - that's the point we are trying to get you to see! Most everyone can see that the Volt is NOT a good buy! What is there added on to it that makes it $20,000 better than the Prius? I didn't say better, I said $20,000 better!

LOL he just can't see that. He can't. I don't get this guy.

Not only does the Volt have to conquer the social stigma's about electric vehicles, but it has to do it at almost twice the cost of other economy cars.

Now he muddies the argument by saying, well, those other cars are crap, the Volt is nicer. True, but that just doesn't matter!

But he just refuses to see this. I guess we're all in crazy land and the Volt is a top seller.

Thanks to a wholesale blitz by people mainly wanting to make a political statement the perceived value of the Volt has been reduced and the perceived cost increased. The end loser? The US taxpayer. Congrats everyone!

I push just to ACCURATELY represent the cost of a Volt and show the potential VALUE. A factor ignored by people mainly wanting to discuss politics. Which I have no problem with... but lets discuss politics then, not cars.

If you statement is the Volt is too expensive for the majority of US citizen. Fine, I agree. If your statement is the Volt is garbage because its too expensive for the majority of US citizens... well I take exception. If that difference is unclear to you, potentially a trip back to elementary school science class would help.

quote: Thanks to a wholesale blitz by people mainly wanting to make a political statement the perceived value of the Volt has been reduced and the perceived cost increased. The end loser? The US taxpayer. Congrats everyone!

Ah I knew it. That's your angle.

Sad.

If that was the case the full court media blitz on SUV's by the Liberal media would have crushed it's sales. But we know now that gas prices hurt SUV sales, NOT media coverage.

And the taxpayers lost the minute the bailout happened.

quote: If your statement is the Volt is garbage because its too expensive for the majority of US citizens... well I take exception.

I never ONCE called the Volt garbage or said it was low quality or a poor value. Not ONCE. You just can't see it.

This is so sad I don't even want to talk to you anymore. You're in a total state of denial.

quote: I never ONCE called the Volt garbage or said it was low quality or a poor value.

Really? I am pretty sure poor value is the fulcrum of your argument. I'd also think hard about your 4 years of posting.

quote: But we know now that gas prices hurt SUV sales, NOT media coverage.

No... the hysteria that media induced over the raise in gas prices definitely played a role in the plunge in SUV sales. The media was -praising- people who took 10K+ losses to get into B/C segment cars. Shear idiocy. SUVs sales have rebounded despite the poor economy and consistently high gas prices. Hmmm...

quote: Ah I knew it. That's your angle.

And whats the angle of those that randomly bring up the Volt? Just curious.

Lots of posting arguing about the value of the Volt.. Guys, or specifically, Keeir. The market hath spoken. Demand was expected by GM to be weak; it ended up being even weaker, and getting even weaker still. This is undisputed fact. Argue all you want, people, for whatever personal reasons they have, have shunned it. Case closed. Trying to talk about TCO will not boost its past sales figures; the ultimate arbiter is the market and the verdict is already in.

Deer of deer Keeir, you're confusing the hell out of Reclaimer with your points. He doesn't know about B-segment and C-segment, he doesn't know to validly compare similar vehicles except for price range. He doesn't consider what the car has to offer compare to another...of a different segment and market. You get to eat your oranges and he eats apples all day long; you've got to realize this.

I also know how to compare value, as do millions of car buyers who are NOT buying the Volt. On what planet does the Volt compare to any similar vehicles?

Technology wise, the Volt stands alone. There is nothing to directly compare it to at this time. So save the "apples to apples" claptrap please. But you have to understand that this doesn't matter to the consumer. When you and Keeir can accept that, we can stop ripping into each other in frustration.

People might like the idea of a car like the Volt, they might even want it. But they clearly do NOT want to spend BMW 3 Series cash on it.

If you two can explain why the most hyped vehicle in our countries history since the Ford Model T has totally flopped, besides an attempt to blame the media, I would love to hear it.

quote: If you two can explain why the most hyped vehicle in our countries history since the Ford Model T has totally flopped, besides an attempt to blame the media, I would love to hear it.

Whelp, that I am not sure the Model T was hyped. And I don't think the Volt was hyped more than any car in the past say 75 years. Nor do I think the sales from one year where cars were not even available to purchase really count yet as a flop. (I was not until Nov. 2011 did cars even start arriving in most of the US. Gee, 3 months on the market and its a flop?!?)

There is alot wrong with your statement top to bottom, and you unwillingness to even examine your assumptions is a problem is discussing this with you.

quote: I know about segments, nobody uses those when they buy a car. NOBODY.

See, this is what I am talking about. Yes, your right, very few people look at segment value when they buy cars. But people look at size! And what is segment except a quick way to compare size! Do people put additional value on roomier cars?!? I think so!

Can you do me a favor and stop with some of this obvious baiting? Saying "most hyped since" is the same as saying "greatest thing since sliced bread". I guess then you would argue about how great bread is. I think you know what I was attempting to convey, a colloquialism, why do you have to be a dick about every little expression? Stop with the excessive baiting and just act like you're talking to another human begin. Please?

quote: And I don't think the Volt was hyped more than any car in the past say 75 years.

What is wrong with you? It's been personally endorsed by the President. NO CAR get's that treatment. It's been a feature of two State of the Union addresses. It has been on every news station, media outlet, newspaper and radio/TV network. GM launched a nation wide Volt Unplugged tour! Did any other car in the past 75 years get that much hype? Stop already with the BS.

quote: Nor do I think the sales from one year where cars were not even available to purchase really count yet as a flop. (I was not until Nov. 2011 did cars even start arriving in most of the US. Gee, 3 months on the market and its a flop?!?)

Keeir, GM set the sales projections for the Volt. Knowing all that, THEY set the projections. Not me, but GM.

Options: I've tried to get them as close as possible, but in some cases it just not there. For example, the 2012 Prius doesn't seem to have an option to have real leather. Only the Volt offers 5 years of OnStar but it doesn't have a Sunroof option. This has lead to some rather high prices and inclusions of options I would not choose on most models (Navigation) because of the bundled nature. The cars end up being very close to each other in terms of end features if you accept the 5 years of OnStar as the same as a sunroof. (In terms of cost they are roughly equal... value however?) The BMW 3 series though is far and away the best for features and interior.

I have assumed Gas at 3.48 a gallon, Diesel at 3.85 a gallon, Electric at 9.83 cents per kWh. US retail averages per EIA today.

I have assumed EPA combined cycle rating and Volt operating on Electricity 75% of the time.

Gosh. The Volt's 150,000 mile TCO is 20,000 less than that BMW 3 series. Its 30% less! Heck we could buy a Volt and Prius C rather than the BMW 328i. Even if we ignore the government credit, the Volt is more than 10,000 less.

So in conclusion, I'd expect the following in terms of cost alone for same feature level.

Volt=Prius<200CT<A3<328i

Performance

328i>A3>Volt>Prius>200CT

Practicality

Prius>200CT>A3>Volt>328i

Interior Quality

328i>A3>200CT>Volt>Prius

Exterior Design

A3>328i>200CT>Volt>Prius

Overall, seems reasonable to me. The Volt is a better driving, less practical car than the Prius. Its interior is of a slightly higher quality, but not really special. Long term costs put the Volt in the range of primary competitors in terms of size, feature level, technology, and practicality while the Volt offers some fairly unique features.

Is the Volt a car for everyone? No clearly not. Its for people who drive less than 50 miles a day and want to be green who can afford a 40,000 dollar car but who can not afford to have two cars or do not desire to have two cars. Within that context (which is the context for millions of US citizens), the Volt is a valid entry in the market. For some reason, it has become the poster child for the Auto Bailouts. Which I really can't understand. the UAW ought to be the poster child. People should be furious that UAW's significantly higher than market wages and benefits were maintained on the back of the general US taxpayer (who just happens to be able to afford a Volt, since most people who make less than 50,000 a year do not pay significant Federal income taxes) and in violation of typical corporate bankruptcy procedures. This spans both President Bush and President Obama who in my opinion both contributed to the situation. GM since its "Bailout" has made the Sonic, Cruze, etc. Yet these cars do not receive the same type of smear campaign.

quote: For some reason, it has become the poster child for the Auto Bailouts.

Because it's the car GM demoed to the taxpayers when the Government asked GM for evidence that they should get bailed out. Did you forget that?

quote: People should be furious that UAW's significantly higher than market wages and benefits were maintained on the back of the general US taxpayer

We are. But there are few things more precious to the left-wing media, and Democrats in general, than unions. Good luck getting traction in that department.

quote: Options:

There's no doubt, the Volt has more creature comforts and refinements than hybrids like the Prius. But people have bought MILLIONS of those. GM traded EV range for luxury, a stupid stupid move. The Volt should have TWICE the EV range, and half the amenities. As it stands now, it should have been badged as a Cadillac.

quote: GM since its "Bailout" has made the Sonic, Cruze, etc. Yet these cars do not receive the same type of smear campaign.

Those cars are selling!!! Hello? They represent that GM CAN listen to the market, pay attention to what people want, and then deliver. They are everything the Volt isn't. The Volt is on the road purely because of politics, BAD politics. It's a black eye on the landscape of our country. Everything points to that, but you wont acknowledge that for some reason. How do you explain the sales numbers? They reflect an absolute repudiation of everything it represents: The bailout, this President, and the glaring conflict of interest.

Here's another thing. I do pay my taxes. GM still owes the American taxpayer roughly 26$ billion dollars. Until they pay it back, I consider everything they do to be using OUR money. It's unethical and straight up un-American to constantly troll those of us exercising our First Amendment rights to speak out about the Volt and this situation to keep us quiet.

People are voting with their wallets, their hearts and minds. Ford saw record sales numbers after the bailout, and polling data shows the bailouts and the Volt were two reasons why.

quote: Is the Volt a car for everyone? No clearly not.

Look how many cars Americans bought in 2012. Apparently the Volt is a car for NO ONE. A "franchise" vehicle, something the Volt clearly is at this point, should be selling somewhere around 200,000 units.

quote: It's unethical and straight up un-American to constantly troll those of us exercising our First Amendment rights to speak out about the Volt and this situation to keep us quiet.

Really? Pot calling the Kettle Black much?

quote: Because it's the car GM demoed to the taxpayers when the Government asked GM for evidence that they should get bailed out. Did you forget that?

Please provide me a link to this... I doubt the "Government" did any such thing. The Government was going to bail out GM regardless and to pretend otherwise is burying you head in the sand. Your angry at the Dog and Pony show... okay. Then say that...

"I am still angry at GM over the bailout and could never consider any of their products."

Not

Constantly and relentlessly railing against a specific product for trumped up and sometimes flat out made up reasons.

quote: The Volt is on the road purely because of politics, BAD politics

Really? A Car aimed at a successful model, the Prius, conceived in 2006, final model outlined in 2008 is on the road because of BAD politics? That same would be true of ANY GM model then...

Listen Reclaimer, the Volt is what the Volt was always intended as.. a Low Volume initial test platform for future automobiles. The Toyota Prius, a volume seller now maybe but it started in the same way. It took 7 years to reach 100,000 units a year... and your expecting the Volt to double than in 1 year.

Or maybe you think a company like GM should only research, develop, and deploy for sale cars that on paper will definitely reach 100,000+ units a year in their first year? This is exactly the thinking that sunk GM.

A company like GM needs to look ahead and be developing the next big thing. This requires risks. Risks that sometimes pay off and sometimes do not pay off. Right now, it looks like the Volt wouldn't pay off. Of course the same would have been said of the Prius in 1999. Yet today, can anyone argue the Prius was a bad idea for Toyota?

But feel free to drive GM into the ground again by not even attempting to provide vision concepts and cars.

quote: But feel free to drive GM into the ground again by not even attempting to provide vision concepts and cars.

See that's what I mean, it seems like you're taking this personal like you're involved with the Volt somehow. What's your angle? There's just NO reason to have this response unless you're personally invested in seeing the Volt critics shut up. How am I "driving" them into the ground?

Do you own GM stock? Do you work with GM directly or indirectly? Are you a Government employee? I have no right to expect answers to this, but I really wish I knew.

quote: The Government was going to bail out GM regardless and to pretend otherwise is burying you head in the sand.

Huh? Congress was totally gridlocked on the issue. It took an executive order from President Bush to force the Government into the bailouts. Stop with the revisionist history please.

GM IS going to drive itself into the ground again, because instead of a structured bankruptcy the company was given to the Unions and the Government. To believe a stronger company could possibly emerge from such a thing would go against everything I know. Most economists and analysts that have reviewed the bailout agree it's just a band-aid.

Your comparison fails because the Volt is not even close to a 328i or A3. Here's a much better option, compare the Volt with a highly optioned Cruze or a Ford Focus Titanium or an Elantra, or a loaded Civic and you'll see why no one would buy it over those two.

I guess technically they are in different markets but I think the only reason they are in different markets is because how expensive the Volt is. Feature wise and luxury wise the Volt should be priced in the 20s and would be competing directly with this Prius. Unfortunately (for GM) they've priced the Volt so outrageous it's in a segment where your choices are a new Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, or a gently used Porsche. If I have the money to buy a Volt I don't know why in the hell I would and if I don't have the money to buy a Volt, well, I'm not going to buy a Volt.

quote: If I have the money to buy a Volt I don't know why in the hell I would and if I don't have the money to buy a Volt, well, I'm not going to buy a Volt.

This is why GM, wisely, killed the EV-1. They knew human nature and economics would make it a dud. Too much technology making the price too high for all the compromises the buyer had to make.

They didn't have that option with the Volt. The Volt was sold to the public as justification for the bailouts. That, if we gave GM a chance, they would come out with the great vehicles they had been working on. So naturally they had to release the Volt.

But you can't escape human nature and economics. Tayb, you just said it, people generally want the MOST car for the amount of money they are willing to spend.

I guess because you can't afford a car more than 20,000, none should exist huh?

What kind of egotistical moron are you?

Cars exist in a wide range of prices because people are able to afford a wide range of prices.

Using your logic:

The Prius c? What about the Versa, a car that costs less than 11,000 dollars. Who would ever shell out 19,000+ for a car when there is 11,000 dollar car!?! No way this Prius c will ever cost less than that Versa.

And heck, why buy a new car. I can go get a 1990 Civic for less than 1,000. Less than -1,000!-.

Stop beig uppitty and realize that the return on investment, your words, doesn't matter to 99.5% of those that buy cars. Not Once have I done the math to see what kind of ROI I'd get from a car. You see a car is NOT AN INVESTMENT. It's a means to get to work and around town. No investment, only money sucking.

What I keep reading is this when people respond to the question of why don't you want a Volt -LIMITED range on battery power!,NO WHERE to plug in!

You see a lot of people, don't have a garage and can't plug in the Volt when it's parked on the street.

And you will need to do a lot of mind changing to get people to understand that the Volt runs on battery and gas. You'd be surprised at how stupid the averaqge person is and doesn't know that!

I am done with you.

And I believe, just like reclaimer, that you are somehow connectd with the Volt. You have to much of the car talk. Like I said before no person going in to buy a car says where are your "c-segment" cars?

quote: And I believe, just like reclaimer, that you are somehow connectd with the Volt. You have to much of the car talk. Like I said before no person going in to buy a car says where are your "c-segment" cars?

Yeah really. What's with this guy? He needs to come clean at this point and tell us what his angle is and who he's working for.

I really can't wrap my head around why designers seem to believe "young" people would want to drive around in cars that look like there should be a senior citizen behind the wheel.

Now ofc we're talking about Toyota here but stick this drivetrain in a FT-86 and price it right and you might end up with something a young person would like to drive. Hell I (29) would want a FT-86 with this drivetrain for a daily driver.

Make the cars small, agile and lightweight with decent trivetrains if you want to target young people. Not cars made for people who have issues getting in and out of anything other than a doorway.

As a "young" person myself, I would have no problem whatsoever driving one of these, although I would personally prefer a sedan over a hatchback. Most young people are broke and would love to only hit the gas pump once for every 3 or 4 times the rich kid with the new Camero does. Also, I don't think anyone would be interested in a <100 hp car that looks like it should do 200 mph.

The problem with cars this small is that a sedan would have absolutely no trunk space at all. That's why the Yaris sedan is so much bigger (nearly a size class) than the hatch.

An FT-86 with this powertrain would be worthless. With that you give up the practicality for driving fun, with this powertrain you would sacrifice practicality for looks alone with is not something most would do.

This car is a good idea for what it is. I currently drive a Mazda 3 sport and it suits me well (as a "young person"), this would use less gas which is the most important thing for many of us.

Well I can only speak from my own experience but back when I considered myself a "youth" I wasn't very concerned with practicality at all. Most of the time I drove around by myself and only on rare occasion did I have a single passenger.

Considering the low weight of the FT-86 by design and the what I assume to be relative low weight of the powertrain I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it as "useless". Lightweight/low centre of gravity cars can do much more with less(look at the original elise).

Sure it would not out-accelerate the 200+bhp version but on the other hand it would probably be much cheaper. Just like the Clio V6 runs laps around the 1,2 litre version.

After all cars like the original Miata sold really well despite looking like a twisted beetle with it's roof cut off and performing even worse.

Yes it does, I can see people mistaking this on the road for a while until they see a badge on the car. I have never liked the Prius personally but I have to say it is affordable and practical. Most other types of hybrids don't return fuel economy like this or at this price. A few years back I was looking at the prospect of one and the price/performance (mpg) would not give me a return until at least 6 yrs. This car however is starting at a lower price and has nice fuel economy. I don't mind weaker engines and I don't usually need to punch it, I do however like knowing that if I ever need to use some throttle for highway maneuvers that I have that option. I am a younger guy (22) and I can't really say that this... appeals to me, but it doesn't repel me either (like the Mini series). I have to say that the Hyundai Veloster is VERY attractive to me and I would like to have it for my next vehicle (turbo) when my Rogue lease is up in 2 yrs. I also have to say that the "young male" oriented Juke I also like, accept the fact that it doesn't have an arm rest, that was a deal breaker for me, I have to rest my arm while I drive or I get up-tight and tense. The smugness of the Prius has died down now and it has just become another vehicle on the road, just not quite for me. I would still like to say good job to Toyota though, they are keeping the competition up which is always good for us.

quote: 10-YEAR/100,000-MILE POWERTRAIN PROTECTION Covers repair or replacement of powertrain components (i.e., selected engine and transmission/transaxle components), originally manufactured or installed by Hyundai that are defective in material or factory workmanship, under normal use and maintenance. Coverage applies to original owner only, effective with 2004 model year and newer model year vehicles. On 1999-2003 model years, coverage applies to original owner and immediate family members (i.e., wife, husband, daughter, son, stepdaughter, stepson). Second and/or subsequent owners have powertrain components coverage under the 5-Year/60,000-Mile New Vehicle Limited Warranty. Excludes coverage for vehicles in commercial use (e.g. taxi, route delivery, delivery service, rental, etc.).

Yuck on the dash, triple-yuck on the steering wheel. The racing stripes on the wheel would drive me nuts, especially if the front alignment is just a teensy bit off and the steering wheel is canted just a bit to the side.

Put the important instruments directly in front of the driver please! Spedo and such do not belong in the center of the car unless it is an F1 racer. I guess I would be ok with that placement if they offered a HUD display option as well.

A woman just won a lawsuit vs honda or toyota (I forget which), when her supposedly 70mpg hybrid was maxing out in the mid 30mpg range. So in the end you'll get 25-30mpg. Still closer to affordable than previous models but that doesnt mean Id buy one though.

I think it will get 50mpg a fair percentage of the time. I frequently get ~50mpg in my second generation Prius and it's larger, heavier and less advanced than this newer model.

What gets me is that the base model has bluetooth but not cruise control. Most of the Prius' I see are driven by old coots like me that couldn't care less about bluetooth but do use cruise control (I know, Toyota says it's Prii, but who's buying into that nonsense?). OTOH, Toyota has a demonstrated knack for creating Prius cruise controls with poor programming that actually waste gas a lot of the time. Perhaps it's a good thing that the base model doesn't have a Toyota cruise control so you can add one of your own and adjust it to yield better results than Toyota's ham-fisted approach.

Well since i have been working on toyotas since 1997 I know alot about quality,even most of the 1st generation prius's are still on the road,I work on may with well over 150k on them.The batteries are rarely replaced,add regenerative braking and the fact that most prius owners never have to change brakes,the incredible city mpg it only takes a few years to get your money back.They are not racecars but they go just fine and cruise on the highway at 80mph or higher with no problems whatsoever.They ride nice, super quiet and do not say feed me all the time:)Another thing toyota stands behind there products,if the HB battery fails after 100k its usually replaced for free you just pay the labor.As much as i hate it calling toyota yourself once your warranty expires will usually get you a part for free but labor is on you.Now if you never change your oil or maintain your car thats your problem