So if the difference between frost and unholy is 20K then WHY is the difference between our unholy dk and myself (a dw frost dk) is a couple K max if he does in fact beat me? And why do I smoke any other unholy dks I run into throughout my game play? Quite simple: unholy is NOT the 'god' spec so please stop claiming it to be. The 3 specs are fairly balanced nothing more, nothing less.

Because your experiences are an incredibly minuscule sample size when comparing 2 different specs.

Because your experiences are an incredibly minuscule sample size when comparing 2 different specs.

Eh no bro, I also constantly compare and contrast my logs with various top end world dks and find that my damage is competitive with theirs when they do NOT scumbag pad meters so please do not make claims that my 'experiences are an incredibly minuscule sample size'.

And before anyone tries to the 'unholy is the way to go if you're progressing' comments; I am in a heroic progression guild and I'm a competitive dw frost dk. :P

Because your experiences are an incredibly minuscule sample size when comparing 2 different specs.

Which highlights the problems of using WOL and other such measures as a means of determining a spec's actual standing. People flock to whatever the perceived best setup is, and skew the numbers quite a bit, on top of the numbers already being skewed in top logs because of the vast preponderance of 'scumbagging' that goes on. Heh. I like that we term it that now, by the by.

Anyways, my point is that samples in general are somewhat flawed, for what we have available to test from.

Main reason I haven't gone unholy is that I don't feel my raid deserves the DPS loss my adjustment phase would cause them, and well... it's not really worth it until Ji-Kun Drops the feather. Which she hasn't. In seven Weeks. With seven coins. /cry

I think what we're seeing is more and more people going Unholy because the "top" players are doing it. This results in frost not getting much exposure on sites like raidbots. It's not that frost is bad or far behind Unholy, it's just that less people play it so you aren't seeing a big representation. Most logs I see of Unholy are meter padding anyways which gives Unholy that bump.

I think what we're seeing is more and more people going Unholy because the "top" players are doing it. This results in frost not getting much exposure on sites like raidbots. It's not that frost is bad or far behind Unholy, it's just that less people play it so you aren't seeing a big representation. Most logs I see of Unholy are meter padding anyways which gives Unholy that bump.

Which, is literally what I just said above you.

WOL and Raidbots aren't a really good measure of a spec's viability, it can get you a very broad picture of things, but generally there's a better way to find out if a spec's viable or not, which usually involves testing on your own and community interaction.

WOL and Raidbots aren't a really good measure of a spec's viability, it can get you a very broad picture of things, but generally there's a better way to find out if a spec's viable or not, which usually involves testing on your own and community interaction.

I think what we're seeing is more and more people going Unholy because the "top" players are doing it. This results in frost not getting much exposure on sites like raidbots. It's not that frost is bad or far behind Unholy, it's just that less people play it so you aren't seeing a big representation. Most logs I see of Unholy are meter padding anyways which gives Unholy that bump.

Unholy can "meter pad" on several encounters, but that doesn't mean it isn't still far ahead of frost.

Heroic Jin'rohk, 25man, 90th percentile
Unholy 258,000
Frost 215,000

No meter padding, and unholy beats frost by 17%.

Heroic Magaera, same conditions
Unholy 212,516
Frost 182,232

No meter padding, unholy beats frost by 15%.

Heroic Iron'Qon, same conditions
Unholy 185,804
Frost 163,837

Again, no meter padding, and unholy beats frost by 12%

So no, frost and unholy are not even close to being equal. Increase the percentile to 95% (which reduces the sample size to an unacceptably low value imo) and the gap only widens. Reduce it to "all parses" and the gap closes, but "all parses" is 100% statistically worthless.

Unholy can "meter pad" on several encounters, but that doesn't mean it isn't still far ahead of frost.

Heroic Jin'rohk, 25man, 90th percentile
Unholy 258,000
Frost 215,000

No meter padding, and unholy beats frost by 17%.

Heroic Magaera, same conditions
Unholy 212,516
Frost 182,232

No meter padding, unholy beats frost by 15%.

Heroic Iron'Qon, same conditions
Unholy 185,804
Frost 163,837

Again, no meter padding, and unholy beats frost by 12%

So no, frost and unholy are not even close to being equal. Increase the percentile to 95% (which reduces the sample size to an unacceptably low value imo) and the gap only widens. Reduce it to "all parses" and the gap closes, but "all parses" is 100% statistically worthless.

Sorry but sims do not equate to actual raid damage, I raid a dw and I do NOT see our unholy dk (nor our 2 hand frost dk) pulling THAT far ahead of me unless the unholy dk meter pads so again...yeah.....no

I like those sims because it doesn't tell anything about how you kill a boss and thus not achieving such numbers.

Lets go :
Jinrokh : we are NOT allowed to melee him and pack ourselves on one of the four sides during storms = dps loss, there UH dots keep ticking. I'm sure in the end it makes the boss dies faster because u had 45k ticking diseases ticking for 10 more seconds on boss. Boss is raped in less than 4 min...
Megaera : you can meter pad on head u never kill + on adds even if you are not on them. Logs mean again nothing.
Qon : Hey how about i AoE in P3 because it boosts my dps when you are told to single one dog at a time to kill them faster in order to have them all dead at first smash.

See how logs means nothing all in all ? It all depends on your raid tactic AGAIN, it depends if u decide to "cheat" or follow rules to have a smooth kill.

I like those sims because it doesn't tell anything about how you kill a boss and thus not achieving such numbers.

Lets go :
Jinrokh : we are NOT allowed to melee him and pack ourselves on one of the four sides during storms = dps loss, there UH dots keep ticking. I'm sure in the end it makes the boss dies faster because u had 45k ticking diseases ticking for 10 more seconds on boss. Boss is raped in less than 4 min...
Megaera : you can meter pad on head u never kill + on adds even if you are not on them. Logs mean again nothing.
Qon : Hey how about i AoE in P3 because it boosts my dps when you are told to single one dog at a time to kill them faster in order to have them all dead at first smash.

See how logs means nothing all in all ? It all depends on your raid tactic AGAIN, it depends if u decide to "cheat" or follow rules to have a smooth kill.

Those aren't sims; those are actual parses.

You seem to not understand what meter padding means. Spreading diseases to bats when your strategy doesn't kill them is meter padding. Spreading diseases to the dogs on phase 3 of Qon IS NOT meter padding. That is taking advantage of spec mechanics, and only highlights my point that unholy is far and away the superior spec.

As for Jin'rohk, how about you learn how to dodge sparks and stay in melee range like other good players?

---------- Post added 2013-05-21 at 01:47 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Samsarathedk

Sorry but sims do not equate to actual raid damage, I raid a dw and I do NOT see our unholy dk (nor our 2 hand frost dk) pulling THAT far ahead of me unless the unholy dk meter pads so again...yeah.....no

Unholy can "meter pad" on several encounters, but that doesn't mean it isn't still far ahead of frost.

Heroic Jin'rohk, 25man, 90th percentile
Unholy 258,000
Frost 215,000

No meter padding, and unholy beats frost by 17%.

Heroic Magaera, same conditions
Unholy 212,516
Frost 182,232

No meter padding, unholy beats frost by 15%.

Heroic Iron'Qon, same conditions
Unholy 185,804
Frost 163,837

Again, no meter padding, and unholy beats frost by 12%

So no, frost and unholy are not even close to being equal. Increase the percentile to 95% (which reduces the sample size to an unacceptably low value imo) and the gap only widens. Reduce it to "all parses" and the gap closes, but "all parses" is 100% statistically worthless.

Megaera: Previous poster commented, Roiling off the adds onto the extra head as well as blatant PS's/OB's into the Poison Head. Both specs are arguably equal on relevant DPS.

Iron Qon: Jin'rokh again, extend strong diseases for the first two dogs and they continue ticking while the dog is in the air. Another fight where disease extension causes the spec to be better for a specific playstyle.

Traditional Unholy and Frost are essentially equal, with Unholy having a very small edge typically.

Sims/parses... I'm sure i understand your point, let's not start a word war so you have the last word.

I'm sure you are pro and sadly we can't compete but then u'll acknowledge that raid tactics are different from guild to guild and i don't raid to fit a parse u fell in love with and until now it worked fine with my hc progress (lei shen inc).

If you get a Feather, you do more damage if you game trinkets and play Unholy. No feather? May as well be Frost if you want to be Frost. Frost is viable, and anyone playing it well isn't hurting their raid if they're bad or inexperienced at Unholy. Why all the butthurt?

First off all this shit is stupid, You all can play numbers for days and it all still is meaningless.

It isn't unholy anymore, its actually called Festerblight, that is why most DKs would switch to unholy. And you only do that when you have optimal trinkets, then re-gem and reforge all of your gear to have the highest possible festerblight rotation. Along withthat for high end raiding guilds, rogues would focus their ToT on the DK as well. And since the Unholy might 5% nerf, the fact you cant benefit your diseases from ToT anymore makes festerblight the worst of all DK playstyle going into 5.3

The reason they did this was to make unholy more of a actual unholy rotation, rather than one of the sub=par abilities blizzard didnt assume would develop a rotation on its own around (festering strike). So now with 5.3, the go to spec will be in my opinion Unholy 2h as top, DW Frost as second ( a close second if a 3+ add "atleast" fight) but even then Unholy will scale just the same as DW frost dps with 4 or more adds. So for single target and 1-3 adds = Unholy 4+ adds still unholy.

The only reason your DW frost would ever do better is because you have been taking any and all upgrades you can, rather than chasing BiS gear for a BiS spec, meaning once you have all the gear needed for the change, youre still prefering a sup-par spec > over your highest possible output. The reason is people are afraid of change, they dont embrace until a patch comes out, or someone else makes a guide giving incentives to change. People dont theorycraft anymore, and are to lazy to play PTR.

So if someone wants to defend how their DW frost is so "superior" to unholy, let them think what they want, let them post whatever evidence they think they have proving their point. But the fact remains, they still dont rank. And if they do its against other Dks just as retarded for chosing frost > unholy anyway.

Who said it was superior ? All we are trying to say is that its viable and far from slowing your raid viability.
Why are you talking about ranks all the time ? Is it required to kill bosses ?
It's an ego battle i guess. You know the answer.