a suggestion to my fellow brothers in masonry..

over the past few months, (especially the last couple) while i used this part of the forum to research freemasonry to see if it was for me, i have
noticed that the mason bashing and baiting has gotten worse and worse, and all it ever leads to, is an insult battle...trying to defend yourselves
against the SAME OLD ARGUMENTS and CONSPIRACIES.

true, were obligated to stand up for what we believe, and fight the lies and slander, but in this case, and at least on these boards, its a lose/lose
situation.

you bite your tongue, trying to stand on the sidelines, as opposed to ripping into someone insulting your fraternity, and people say its proof that
youre a secret society, and youre hiding something.

you speak up, and you get called a liar, even though you know what youre saying is the truth, because you ARE what others are only speculating
about.

u can only try to stamp out ignorance for so long, especially in this argument (whether freemasons eat babies, start wars, have orgies w/ the
illuminati, fart out heallfire)...before you have to realize, no one will ever listen to what you have to say. for every one ignorant person you
might get to see the truth 200 more come to replace him spouting off about how masons make blood sacrifices to the elder gods LOL.

i understand how u feel as people rip on the things you hold dear, even though im new to the fraternity, i still get mad at these uber conspiracy
nerds who blame masons for everything. but i just dont say anything, because thats EXACTLY what they want.

i suggest we just avoid these threads, that you KNOW are just trying to lure you in. and its pretty obvious which threads are bait to masons on the
board to get into YET ANOTHER internet battle. its pointless and its a complete waste of our time, because in the end...no one listens, and the cycle
of ignorance continues anyway.

if u know a thread is just another mason bashing thread...just avoid it. dont post in it. theyre gonna think what they want anyway, regardless of
what you say, and no matter what truth you give them. that time spent arguing is much better spent somewhere else.

A possible conspiracy is identified, the evidence of the conspiracy is presented and then is objectively weighed. As evidence is not necessarily
factual, it is a THEORY.
Now, some folks are going to buy into the theory and decide that the evidence presented is heavy enough to lean toward believing that the theory is
true.
Others are not going to buy into the theory, and they are going to provide counter evidence, indicating why they do not believe the theory holds
water. Sometimes one doesn't even have to provide evidence, just question the evidence provided by the opposing view. An excellent example of this
is Nygdan's reply in this thread: www.abovetopsecret.com...

One thing is for sure, merely screaming that all theories are lies and that the Masons are great people will sway nobody, as the rank and file Mason
is not the target of the theory. Far from it, the rank and file Mason is seen as people who are duped into belonging to an organization whose core
members are evil people with evil designs for the world. What makes the theory even more attack-proof is that it is speculated that only the inner
circle know the evil plans. The great way to attack that, of course, is how did the theorists become privvy to the info!

However you might want to handle the discussion is up to you, as long as it is within the guidelines of the board. Regardless, I'm sure the rank and
file Mason will conduct himself with dignity as most rank and file Masons believe in such concepts.

LOL! I agree with you. The horse is not only dead; there is no longer any evidence that a horse was ever present at the site of the
stick-swinging!

At one time I tried to ask new posters to research and add to existing threads before they created new and redundant ones. Nowadays, there are so
many people here and new folks arriving every day that I am overwhelmed. Maybe ignoring rehashes is the best way, whether you agree with them or not.

Originally posted by yin_yang
for every one ignorant person you might get to see the truth 200 more come to replace him...

Whatever the anti-Masons choose to say or believe about Masonry is no skin off my nose and I have no interest in influencing what they believe. The
truth is extremely easy to find. I owe the anti-Masons a debt of gratitude for motivating me to find the truth about Masonry. If not for
freemasonrywatch and the anti-Masons on ATS I most likely would not be a Master Mason today, so I extend you my thanks and wish you the best. No
sarcasm intended.

So, tell people the conspiracies accusations which are indeed true and no one will keep asking. Surely 100% of the tales can't be false, some of
them have to be true. There is always some part of truth to rumours.

What's true and what's false has been pretty well documented over the last few months on numerous threads.

It has been suggested before that an FAQ be created which can tackle some of the major misconceptions about Freemasonry and allow people to focus in
on some of the greyer areas. This is an excellent idea in principle but I have no idea how it could have any credibility with an ill-informed
conspiracy theorist if constructed by a mason. Perhaps a respected mod like Nygan or Intrepid could oversee the project.

Originally posted by sugeshotcha
So, tell people the conspiracies accusations which are indeed true and no one will keep asking. Surely 100% of the tales can't be false, some of
them have to be true. There is always some part of truth to rumours.

You'd be VERY surprised if you actually knew the truth. Few times have I seen such ignorance displayed towards an individual subject. The only
other subjects that I can honestly say I have seen as much ignorance displayed towards are religion and politics. It's very frustrating to be in our
position.

I'm not a freemason and I really haven't spent much time researching their organization or background.

From what I've seen, in my time here at ATS, is that there seems to be alot of history back to the European beginnings with a somewhat dark
past/belief/agenda.

I have also noticed, that in life, anytime you align yourself/join with an organization/group/committee/etc you will be subject to yea-sayers and
ne-sayers.

If I support a particular party then I will be subject to ridicule for all the negatives they may or may not accomplish/do.

If I join an environmentalist group then I may be labeled a flower child.

What if I am the "cookie mom" for this year's Girl Scout cookie sale . . . will I be subject to ridicule after it is determined they have been
lacing the cookies all these years?

You know they are why else would someone buy 8 boxes of "Thin Mints" EVERY year?! :O) LOL

I know that I'm stretching things a bit here, but I guess I just want to demonstrate that there are "extremists and radicals" within almost any
(make that every) organization.

Just because, say, I am a Senator or Congress"person" during so-and-so's administration. This does not mean that I necessarily support ALL that
they do or stand for. So I state my report/inquiry, for the record, and continue on diligently trying to accomplish the tasks set forth through, and
from, my constituents.

I guess the overall reason for this post is "my" experience /knowledge with, and of, the Masons.

- Have a friend who belongs to a Masonic lodge. He refers to it as more of just a brotherhood. Knowing him as I do, and talking to him, it comes
across more-as an Adult Boy Scouts. A rinky-dink handshake, meetings to discuss lodge "agenda", donations, fund raisers, benefits (Circus, toys for
tots kinda stuff).

- Went to a Circus or two I recall as a kid...much better than a dog-and-pony show.

- Over the years remember publicly seeing donations for building additions for hospitals, donations made to various funds/organizations/special
needs(i.e. handicapped)/ etc.

Yes, I do intend to spend some time researching online, and I'll be doing a bit of chattin with my buddie too

From my "deny ignorance" viewpoint, I have to realize the vast numbers nationwide/worldwide.

Collective - Organized - Committed

The vast majority of US members may even be "made" available as a component of Citizen Corps in the ever so
present thrust towards a NWO, or type thereof.

Until I look further into the history, and core principles, I will remain on the fence. Not that I'm even considering "signing up"!!!!

I am more curious as to whether or not the freemasons prove true to so-stated origin, and supposed goal(s). Either way, I want to see how this plays
into Meiers scheme of things . . . and those to come.

95% of population = GOOD, HONEST, HARD-WORKING 'FRIENDS' who would do most anything to help you out. The other 5% run the whole damn show, and
don't give a rat's about YOU! :O?

Originally posted by yin_yang
i understand how u feel as people rip on the things you hold dear, even though im new to the fraternity, i still get mad at these uber conspiracy
nerds who blame masons for everything. but i just dont say anything, because thats EXACTLY what they want.

Right on! I'd say "right on brother," but I am not yet a member of the Craft.

I understand perfectly what you mean about people ripping on what you hold dear. I happen to be LDS, and I have faced every type of lie and slander
out there. It's always the same handful of erroneous arguments. And no matter how much you try to explain, nobody gives you a chance to speak, and
when you finally get a word in, everyone has their ears plugged.

And you know what? It's gonna happen all over again now that I have admitted what I am.

BTW, if you choose to bash on the LDS people, don't use the word "Mormon." We don't use the N-word to refer to African American People. We don't
call Little People the M-word. We don't call Asian Peoples by any of the slurs that were attributed to them during WWII, the Korean War, or the
Vietnam War. "Mormon" is just as bad as any of these ethnic slurs.

When the term "Mormon" originated, it was INTENDED to be a deriding term. Many people today do not realize this, even some LDS people. My opinion is
that nobody has ever stood up for the LDS people, and so the name has stuck. African Americans had the ACLU and the NAACP to defend them legally, and
so the hateful N-word does not stick today in mainstream English.

I've also read the rituals of the first three degrees of Masonry, and they do NOT coincide with the LDS Temple Endowment ceremony. Of course, a bunch
of half-witted blogs will argue otherwise, but I have been to my LDS Temple dozens of times, and the scenes and stories that are acted out have
absolutely nothing to do with the scenes and stories that are acted out in Freemasonry.

I will admit two things: (1) A couple of the symbols are similar visually, but their intended meanings are extremely different. (2) The STYLE of
presentation can be found similiar. However, the INFORMATION presented in the LDS Temple and the Freemason Lodge are like apples and oranges - two
things that have nothing to do with each other. But of course, I'm part of the LDS Conspiracy, and I'm hiding something by denying stuff, etc etc
etc.

Sorry I got off topic. I'm just trying to say that I agree that it is a pity that people have this dire need to believe a bunch of hogwash they read
on the Internet.

You'd be VERY surprised if you actually knew the truth. Few times have I seen such ignorance displayed towards an individual subject. The only
other subjects that I can honestly say I have seen as much ignorance displayed towards are religion and politics. It's very frustrating to be in our
position.

Part of the problem is that people who have never belonged to social, fraternal organizations seem to have a tough time wrapping their minds around
the fact that many "ancient mystical traditions" and much of the grandiose language used by initiates when talking to each other or in "rituals"
at the house/lodge/batcave/etc are intended to be performed/chanted with tongue firmly in cheek.

I don't know firsthand the kinds of things that go on in Masonic lodges. Not eager to find out--not because the lodges conceal deep dark secrets
(those would be interesting) but because I suspect they conceal a great deal of backslapping and affable, painfully-sincere conversations about how to
draw more business back to main street and how the new super Wal Mart is going to drive the local grocer (a good man and a Mason) out of business.
Most of the Masons I know wouldn't have a whole lot of interest in the silly, absurdly funny, pointlessly pretentious quasi-pagan (to the extent that
18 year old American whitebreads can manage to pull off quasi-paganism) nonsense in some of my college fraternity's "ceremonies". (They might have
an interest in some of the things that happened at parties--they're not men of stone after all.)

Some people like to hang out with other people. Sometimes people make rules about who can and can't also hang out there, not because there are deep,
dark secrets to be protected but just because, frankly, not everyone wants to hang out with everyone else and there's no reason why they should have
to. And sometimes when people hang out together, they act silly.

The only reason I'm bothering to post this is that in addition to acting silly, the Masons also happen to do a lot of good, and many of them are very
sincere boyscout types who let themselves get upset when people go and accuse them of causing the Great Depression or killing Kennedy. I wanted to
let any of those types who might happen to read these posts (although one assumes anyone who spends much time online eventually develops a thickish
skin anyway) know: It is entirely possible to be a conspiracy theory enthusiast, and even to believe in the existence of secret cabals and still
understand that beliefs in chthonic, sinister Masonic conspiracies are quite probably bat guano and horsefeathers.

Not eager to find out--not because the lodges conceal deep dark secrets (those would be interesting) but because I suspect they conceal a great deal
of backslapping and affable, painfully-sincere conversations about how to draw more business back to main street and how the new super Wal Mart is
going to drive the local grocer (a good man and a Mason) out of business.

Nope. Ussually it's what's for dinner before the next meeting, the Strawberry Social, Have A Heart charity, and Grand Lodge communications.

BTW, if you choose to bash on the LDS people, don't use the word "Mormon." We don't use the N-word to refer to African American People. We don't
call Little People the M-word. We don't call Asian Peoples by any of the slurs that were attributed to them during WWII, the Korean War, or the
Vietnam War. "Mormon" is just as bad as any of these ethnic slurs.

When the term "Mormon" originated, it was INTENDED to be a deriding term. Many people today do not realize this, even some LDS people. My opinion is
that nobody has ever stood up for the LDS people, and so the name has stuck. African Americans had the ACLU and the NAACP to defend them legally, and
so the hateful N-word does not stick today in mainstream English.

Mormon is a slur? Why do the LDS use that term? Mormon Tabernacle Choir, and mormon.org is an offical site. I'm lost.

Originally posted by The Axeman
Every LDS I've ever met called themselves Mormons...

That is more of them taking a lemons and making it lemonade rather than attempting to define themselves as a "persecuted underclass" than it is
proper terminology.

Is it? Or is this particular user especially sensitive to the term? Just because it ORIGINATED as a slur, doesn't mean it still is. It obviously is
not, considering that most mormons I have ever known call themselves just that.

Originally posted by The Axeman
Well, in all honesty, the same thing happened with another slur... Like, it's OK for them to say it to each other, but if someone outside that
demographic says it... it's a big no-no...

Just sayin'...

Anyway so what would you like to be called? LDS?

I don't think so. I've NEVER heard of a mormon being sensitive to the term, I think it's just this particular LDS that somehow got the idea
in his head that he should be offended by the term.

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