No Thanks, Mr. Gandhi

I reject your apology because you have missed the point of why your post was so offensive.

In a 1938 essay, Mohandas ("Mahatma") Gandhi, the spiritual and political leader of the Indian independence movement, counseled Jews in Nazi Germany to neither flee nor resist but rather offer themselves up to be killed by their enemies, since their "suffering voluntarily undergone will bring them an inner strength and joy."

When all hope is lost, a Jew about to be killed "al Kiddush Hashem" – as a Jewish martyr – is indeed to reach for serenity, even happiness, at the opportunity to give up his life because of who he is. When Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman, the great Lithuanian Jewish religious leader and scholar, was murdered by Hitler's henchmen in 1941, he reportedly told the students about to be killed with him that "In Heaven it appears that they deem us to be righteous because our bodies have been chosen to atone for the Jewish people… In this way we will save the lives of our brethren overseas… We are now fulfilling the greatest commandment… The very fire that consumes our bodies will one day rebuild the Jewish people."

But Jewish martyrdom is not something to be courted. And so Mr. Gandhi's advice for Jews during the Holocaust was, even if consonant with his personal beliefs, from Judaism's point of view profoundly wrong.

And Gandhi's advice was even more disturbing in light of his admission, in that same essay, that the "cry for the national home for the Jews does not make much appeal to me." Jews, he said, should "make… their home where they are born." It is, moreover, he went on, "inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs."

Apples, they say, don't fall far from trees. A rotten one fell with a loud splat recently over at The Washington Post. On a weblog – "On Faith" – sponsored by that paper in conjunction with Newsweek Magazine, Arun Gandhi, a grandson of Mohandas and co-founder of the M. K. Gandhi Institute for Nonviolence at the University of Rochester, opined that "the Jews today" are intent on making Germans feel guilty for the Holocaust (which he chose to spell with a lower-case "h") and that they insist that "the whole world must regret what happened to the Jews."

"The world did feel sorry," he reminded his readers, "for the episode." But "when an individual or a nation refuses to forgive and move on, the regret turns into anger."

Ah, yes, that unpleasant "episode," more than 60 years ago. And those Jews still can't bring themselves to forgive the Nazis.

Like his grandfather was, Mr. Gandhi petit-fils is also concerned with Israel. Addressing those who defend the Jewish State's security barrier and use of weapons to fight terrorism, he challenged: "[Y]ou believe that you can create a snake pit – with many deadly snakes in it – and expect to live in the pit secure and alive?"

And so the man of peace, grandson of the same, reached the conclusion that actions like Israel's "created a culture of violence, and that Culture of Violence is eventually going to destroy humanity."

Interesting. Although his own concern about Jews was not exactly their militarism, Hitler similarly saw them as jeopardizing humanity's survival. Well, whatever.

The focus of your ire should have been not those living in the snake pit, but rather the snakes themselves.

Grandson Gandhi subsequently apologized for his "poorly worded post." In the course of his apology he even took care to capitalize "Holocaust." But his apology itself, unfortunately, consisted solely of his regret at having implied that "the policies of the Israeli government are reflective of the views of all Jewish people." Many Jews, he explained, "are as concerned as I am by the use of violence for state purposes…"

Well, thank you, Mr. Gandhi. But no thanks. I cannot speak for all of the Jewish people, of course, but for my part I must decline your apology. Not because I bear you any grudge or ill will and certainly not because I am hard-hearted. I don't think I have ever rejected an apology in my life, until now.

It's not because I am blinded by some ethnic rage over the unpleasantness of that World War II episode. And not because I am a knee-jerk defender of Israel in whatever her leaders decide to do; I am not.

No, I reject your apology simply because you seem to have missed the entire point of why your original post was so offensive – frankly, revolting. It is astounding that you still don't seem to realize your insult and error.

They lie in where you directed your words. You are welcome to criticize Israeli decisions, even the wisdom of Israel's establishment itself, if you agree with your grandfather's views. But if your ultimate concerns are in fact peace and humanity's survival, then in a world where Jews are regularly attacked simply for being Jews and Israelis simply for being Israelis, where Jewish tombstones are defaced and broken, where Arab countries will not permit Israelis to enter their borders and Arab textbooks teach children to hate Jews as a matter of religious and cultural obligation, where a United Nations routinely ignores murder, mayhem and unspeakable cruelty in scores of countries but just as routinely condemns Israel for defending herself, the primary focus of your ire should have been not those living in the snake pit, but rather the snakes themselves.

The Ghandis seem to be very generous with the lives of others, especially Jews. He said something similar to Churchill when Churchill requested his help in warding off a possible Japanese invasion of India. Churchill threw him in jail.

(52)
Nachiket,
July 21, 2009 6:02 AM

So much agony!!!!

I agree to Rohan the post by Riya is heartbraking. We the young INDIANS DO NOT STUDY HISTORY AT ALL and make such harsh statements ( though we think we know all the facts of history generally those so called facts are told by somebody else and not out of our study). Riya you should study Gandhi. One thing for sure he was certainly not Idiot

(51)
macrina,
March 18, 2009 6:50 AM

varun's hate speech

varun seems to be a guy with a lot of hate, communal disharmony and a person who wishes to spread hurt among people. it's not only sad, to hear what varun has to say for the jews, cause he has no connection with the jews.. he's been spreading hate messages by way of his speech in India as well. he's spreading communal disharmony you could look up news sites of India to read his latest.

(50)
Rohan,
April 4, 2008 1:56 PM

Calm Down

Seriously, you all need to calm down. Riya, you need to get more education on the facts. Gandhi was a great man, perhaps not perfect, but as Einstein (A Jew) said "Generations to come will scarce believe that such a one as this ever in flesh and blood walked upon this earth". Through misquotations and distortions many people emotionally overreact and arm-chair quarterback judgement of history. Put yourself in the shoes of people in the context of their time, they did not have the luxury of your hindsight. Everything looks 20/20 in hindsight.

Anonymous,
March 7, 2012 4:28 PM

Non sense

Einstein was right, it is simply impossible to believe that a person could be so much unaware of reality.
Leaders need to have far sight. Gandhi was not a mahatma, he was made a mahatma.

(49)
Abraham Mathews,
February 20, 2008 8:19 PM

God's own people !

When you are God's own people why worry about anyone else...He has promised your fathers and all of you Jews that he will never diown you. So if God over shodows over you...why care about anyone or fear anything..He is the Almighty. Its in Faith in Him Man conquers...look back into the Old testment..Everytime you turned to him...He protected and won you your wars. So wharever any Gandhi or anyone says has no influence over Jewish People.

(48)
riya,
February 1, 2008 8:03 AM

gandhi was an idiot...because of him even we indians r sufferring...he was such an idiot..because of him we lost our gr88 heroes, we lost our land(pakistan) to muslims n we lost our wealth which he gave to muslims...he was just an idiot....simply stupid man...we hate him...he is a shame to our nation...

(47)
Maffy,
January 31, 2008 12:20 PM

Dr. King said it

Although I think that the effort of non-violent resistance worked well in India, I think what Dr. King had to say rings true: "If your opponent has a conscience, then follow Gandhi and nonviolence. But if your enemy has no conscience like Hitler, then follow Bonhoeffer." Rev. Martin Luther King

(46)
Anonymous,
January 28, 2008 1:35 AM

Dear Ms. Chin:

Please convey my appreciation to President Selgiman for his courage in accepting Arun Gandhi's resignation and thank you very much for doing the actual work involved in sending out the emails leting me and, I presume, others know of Gandhi's resignation.

The January 22nd Faculty Resolution on the subject was most welcome as well. As I imagine you know, it is simply accepted that many campuses have become part of this newly revived anti-Semitism and I am most gratified to see that yours has not. In that vein, I couldn't help but smile when I saw that The Carter Center at Emory continues their involvement with Gandhi; that is truly predictable and makes your university's acceptance of his resignation shine even brighter.

The actions taken by the President and faculty of Rochester University have been saved by me because I had never thought of sending my children there. Believe me, you will be getting 4 applications from 4 superb young people (who just happen to be our children - heh) over the next several years as a direct result of your university's decent policy in this regard.

Thanks again and please do let President Seligman know how much his leadership means to those of us who need these periodic 'booster-shots' from places that matter ... such as our places of higher education.

(45)
Nelson,
January 25, 2008 7:13 PM

Not surprising!

M.K.Gandhi blundered in many ways, one being his hand in the division of India. It does not surprise me to know that he was a hypocrite. How could a man preaching peace and non-violence be so averse to the Jews getting a homeland? Which non-violent person advise a people to accept a voilent death? It clearly shows that M.K. Gandhi was and his grandson is a Nazi sympathizer. As an Indian it shames me to come to that realisation.

(44)
Miriam,
January 25, 2008 9:46 AM

I agree with the Rabbi.

Kol HaKavod Rabbi. I am a Jew born India. India has been good to Jews for over 2000 years and we have no complaints of the country or the government. I think Mr. Gandhi should, as my mother would say, think before he speaks (or writes). Why should we always look the other way, or be slaughtered like sheep and not defend ourselves. I don't think the Indians would do that nor would I expect them to. May be he should suggest to the Indian Government to give away Kashmir and other states to keep peace in India. No matter how much India has given away, such as Pakistan and Bangladesh, still there is no peace in India. May be Mr. Gandhi has forgottten. I think Mr. Gandhi should read up on the history of the Jews, starting with the Torah (Bible)and then other books concerning how the Jews have been so tolerant of other religions and cultures and were the ones that have been persecuted. All I can say that, like his grandfather, he wears blinders and doesn't see the whole picture. I really feel sorry for him. I am glad somebody spoke up.

Kol HaKavod again.

(43)
Zvi Kline,
January 25, 2008 9:06 AM

Great man?

I do not know how anyone can say that Ghandi is one of the greatest men to live on Earth. Just because "everyone" says so does not make it true. The man was not a man of peace, but a man of slaughter, for his own people and others. He obviously, from his comments, had no problems with Jews being murdered. The Talmud tells us that when someone comes to kill you. arise quickly and kill him. I prefer George Washington, a true man of peace.

(42)
menon sankara,
January 25, 2008 2:15 AM

M.K. Gandhi &his grandson are ignorant of history

I cannot believe that the grandfather &grandson are so ignorant of Israel'shistory.I think Rabbi Avi Shaffran gavean appropriate response.I am an Indianliving in South East Asia.Shalom

(41)
Nate,
January 24, 2008 11:06 AM

strange article

your decision to start the article with a repudiation of Ghandi, one of the greatest ment to live on earth, was quite disturbing. you may disagree with his opinions on the war and Israel, but to imply that he was being malicious shows a severe lack of understanding for positions not in lock step with your own. although I may have been right with you on your discussion of his grandson, the fact that you felt the need to malign one of the most ethical individuals in history forces me not to take this article seriously.

(40)
AJSA,
January 24, 2008 5:06 AM

Sickening.

These sorts of things make my heart sink, and unfortunately I never find myself surprised by such things anymore.

(39)
Anonymous,
January 23, 2008 5:10 PM

Same old, same old...

Dear Sir, Madam:re: "the policies of the Israeli government are reflective of the views of all Jewish people." Many Jews, he explained, "are as concerned as I am by the use of violence for state purposes..."

The piont is missed. the duty of any state is to Potect its' citizens. Israel, a Democratic State - a Country, not to the liking of many , many "people", has the Duty to protect its' citizens from harm, destruction, attack, and losst of life.

True, many Jews, as many individuals, loathe gratuitous violence - any sane person considered "balanced", does not indulge in violence, for any reason.

That being said, No Jew, as no human being (oops!!!! forgot the suicide bombers!!!!), chooses deliberately, to lose their life for any given reason, particularly in the name of hatred.

Mr. Ghandi sincerely needs to attempt to do some, at the very least, superficial thinking - Jews are human beings, Israel is a country - this does I believe spell, duty on the part of government to Protect its' citizens.

In my opinion, it is unhealthy and strange to "split" a country into pieces because some of its residents refuse to live in the said country.

"Occupation" is a bizarre construct when a country by definition includes all of its territory.

It alwasy behooves, in my opinion, unhappy individuals to learn to behave themselves and contribute to society rather than whine and use the privileged status of adulthood to harm, destroy and murder the country they live in and their co-citizens.

Mr. Ghandi, lacks the ability to present a coherent discourse as to what he judges to be theh heart of the issue when he states"[Israel...] created a culture of violence, and that Culture of Violence is eventually going to destroy humanity."

Israel is a Democratic State under attack by som unbelievably violent groups, within and without its borders.

The culture of violence has been elaborated by goons, thugs, and individuals deeply wounded by their own cultural limitations which offers up to its peoples very restrictive and narrow a world view.

Israel is profoundly admirable. As It seeks to protect its citizens, it manages to care for how best to negotiate a true, sustainable peace with its numerous, most often intellectually twisted and spiritually bereft enemies.

The culture of violence is perpetrated by some very vocal and wounded individuals whose own cultural group refuses to accept into their society and encamps them in refugee abodes.

It is a deeply sad state of affairs. The continual assault on Israel and the Jewish Peoples everywhere will not assuage the hurt felt by anyone.

I suggest that Mr. Ghandi, as so many in our world, can care less about anyone. The agenda, as in the Nazi Era, is about the Destruction of the Jewish Peoples. As with his grandfather, he continues the obsession of many to will the annihilation of Jewry - cloaked in a pseudo-concern with violence and the demise of humanity.

The only demise should be that of violent states who even now declare that Israel and Jewry should be destroyed.

Mr. Ghandi, should concern himself with his own "violent" beliefs towards Israel, Israelis and Jews everywhere.

(38)
ron,
January 23, 2008 2:07 PM

bravo

More people need to understand that Israel is a peace loving defender of all that is good and that ignorance of truth in even the brightest minds remains ignorance. Why is it that "Israel attacks" is a daily headline when in fact "Israel defends democracy and herself against terrorist missles" is the truth?

(37)
Hannah,
January 23, 2008 7:03 AM

Thought and Deeds

Being Jewish I was gravely hurt by Ghandi's comment that Jews in Europe should offer themselves to the slaughterers in submission. I have reflected on this for nearly half a century and the hurt I felt was deep and unanswerable until I realised that in Ghandi's philosophy G-d wasn't present.

We should remind ourselves that in Ghandi's last days he shared in an unnatural relationship with a young woman. Why do I mention this? Because it is a case in point of a mind being warped by a philosophy based on personal thought. A person must be judged by thoughts and deeds and his grandson should not be proud of continuing the Ghandi legacy in many respects.

Violence vs nonviolence in the case of the Jews was, I believe, not the basis for Ghandi's comment and I reserve my own comments on this matter. In the question of violence vs nonviolence I would entirely wish to exclude Ghandi from the argument.

(36)
batya harris,
January 22, 2008 10:45 PM

you should send this to mr. gandhi

Rabbi Shafran - have you sent this to Gandhi - he should see the "oxymoronism" of his position. Yasher koach, and may we all realize what you say, b. harris

(35)
Jorge Polo,
January 22, 2008 9:53 PM

Israel can defeat their enemies in six days

I rejoice when I hear G-d was protecting Israel when sorrounding nations trying to destroy Israel were defeated in six days. Do it again.

(34)
shulamit,
January 22, 2008 7:21 PM

Very well replied

I admire the way you answered.I completely agree with you sir. It is terrible that no one feels what Israel suffers everyday and that people think we should not defend ourselves, I wonder what they would do if their family and others were attacked everyday? would they think the same way or would they agree to defend themselves and their family, their country. The United States has always defended herself from her enemies, the jewish people have the same rights.HSM bless you

(33)
David Brown,
January 22, 2008 4:29 PM

Thank you for speaking for the Silent Mulitude.

It can't be known what M. Gandhi would have said had he lived. That said, his thoughts about Israel's Right to return over look the fact that Jews were the only people to self-rule thoughout history. A. Gandhi's comments seem to pander to all those who are against a political solution.

Thank you for expressing what my pursed lips did not say...........

(32)
Jennifer,
January 22, 2008 3:09 PM

I didn't realize...

I'm shocked, saddened, & disappointed that one of the most important spokesmen for peace expected Jews in Europe to just roll over & die. Even more shocking to me are the words spoken by his grandson, who apparently hasn't learned anything from history.

The younger Ghandi apparently has led a very sheltered life, fed anti-Israel propaganda with no access to - or interest in - the rest of the story. His apology was seriously lacking, and Shafran's refutation was brilliant! Thank you!

(31)
Daniela,
January 22, 2008 11:35 AM

WOW

JULIA ! I dare say, your analysis is quite possibly better than the article itself ! G-d bless you 1000 times over!! You should write an article yourself about this very thing and how it relates and possibly explains the relationship between terrorism and liberalism ! Brilliant!

(30)
Andy,
January 22, 2008 10:06 AM

Gandi gets it right but laments the fact

"Gandhi Institute for Nonviolence at the University of Rochester, opined that "the Jews today" are intent on making Germans feel guilty for the Holocaust (which he chose to spell with a lower-case "h") and that they insist that "the whole world must regret what happened to the Jews."

I think decent Germans should and do feel shame and regret[better than guilt] over the Holocaust.The whole world should regret what happened to the Jews. The fact that many regret Hitler did not finish the job seems to me to be a compelling reason for a strong Jewish State. The fact that some Jews and "well and not so well meaning" gentiles work to weaken Israel is a fact.I pray they will fail in their efforts.According to Torah Israel's health is dependent upon her actions. Thanks to Aish and others for spreading this truth/opinion depending on ones perspective.

(29)
Ram Srinath,
January 22, 2008 9:03 AM

no harm intended...

come on, people. Like a billion Indians, I have great respect for the philosophy and opinion of Bapu. Anyone will tell you he spoke with the best intentions. If his opinion, as an independent observer, does not suit you, you are not doing any better by your views. In my humble opinion, the world watches the actions of the arabs and jews and makes its own conclusion based on its own history. Please give everybody their due space to opine. Having said that, I wish the Jewish people only the best and peace in all its forms.

(28)
Leig Anne,
January 22, 2008 7:55 AM

The World needs the Jews

For me, this article merely shows how badly the world needs the Jews. Israel has a calling to be a nation of Priests. To be a nation that shows the Great G-d of Abraham to a world filled with Hatred and violence.

If little Gandhi thinks his grandfather had the corner on joy, hope love and peace, he is sadly wrong. All he has to do is listen to the prophets to hear about a world filled with more than his grandfather could ever hope for and it all comes from the One G-d of Abraham. If only more of the world could see G-d as the prophets saw Him we would be MUCH better off....even better of than listening to his grandfather.

(27)
ec,
January 22, 2008 5:37 AM

Extremely well-said!

Avi Shafran, your refutation here was brilliant, and I applaud you in all your efforts to be the voice of tzedek in an insane world.

Julia, you sound like a beautiful person and, with great eloquence, you proved a crucial point in way that few people could ever hope to. I'm so upset to read the terrible ordeal you underwent, and you have my respect for the intelligent and courageous way you clearly deal with life.

(26)
Joe,
January 21, 2008 1:27 PM

I am surprised by what this article did not mention.

I live in the DC area, and I got very lively on the boards attached to this post on the the WaPo website.

I am surprised that this article did not mention the most offensive things thing that little Ghandi said or the horrific things that were posted by the truly vile Jew haters on the boards. (I said Jew hater because antisemite is simply too mild for the things that were said.)

The most vile thing said by Ghandi was:

"We have created a culture of violence (Israel and the Jews are the biggest players) and that Culture of Violence is eventually going to destroy humanity."

It's modern day Protocols, and it fed directly into the paws of animals who called Jews cockraoches and even bragged (yes bragged, in that they wrote it was a good thing) about the Holocaust.

Now, after enough noise was made, the Post has gone back in and cleaned the boards of the worst stuff on the initial AG piece, and the comments to the "apology."

However, that is only because this particular thing got all the attention it did. One can find the most vile in the boards stuff anytime there is ever a Jewish article in the Post, and they generally don't mind to violate their own house rules against racism and leave it up. The again, what would you expect from an organization that has Tariq Ramadan as an "on faith" panelist.

The old lies are still very much with us, and they are gaining acceptance again through the PR machine of the Arabists and the new left.

(25)
julia,
January 21, 2008 11:44 AM

Passivism leads to great things

I was raised a Quaker. Quakers are not drafted into the US army because they are passivists. Only the Amish and I believe Mormons share this same status. When I was a child and I misbehaved I was not spanked, because that propagated violence. Instead I had to sit on my father's lap until I could calm down ad apologize. Sometimes our father would hold us down if we were throwing a temper tantrum. This process uses dissociation to go out of yourself and your situation. You transcend and are changed, for a little kid from a tantrum to calm. If my brother hit me he was punished in this way, but if he did something impolite or irritating I was told to ignore him, because he justs wants my negative attention and without getting it he will get bored and quit. This sometimes worked, usually for situations where he just wanted to annoy his older sister. Anger can come from many places, one of them from being hurt or from the fear of being hurt. Having been psychologically conditioned to dissociate when I was angry, dissociating when I felt great amounts of fear was a by product. This can lead to great things like overcoming a fear of heights and sky diving, or getting up and speaking in front of a crowd. Dissociation is a coping mechanism however and can become automatic. When I was a freshman in college I met a young man who in the course of a conversation made me uneasy. Like an open minded passivist I gave him the benefit of the doubt and when I became afraid of him i automatically dissociated. He viciously raped me for approximately 5 hours while laughing at me and calling me an easy whore. Part of the soul dies when a person is assaulted like that. The type of dissociation that leads to extascy is the psychological state that the passive person in sadomasochistic bondage achieves while being tortured or humiliated. They transcend their anger and fear to the point where they are choosing to continue to allow themselves to be hurt. This gives them great sense of control ironically, because they feel that they are transcending their animal instinct to feel violated or afraid. It becomes a euphoric high, similar to an intense spiritual experience. But it is not the same as a spiritual experience. Giving yourself over to violence stems from dissociating and dissociating comes from believing that your feelings of anger and fear are unjustified or immoral. Treating your feelings as unjustified or immoral means that you have concluded that your wellbeing is not as important as your neighbors wellbeing, pride or psychological development towards nonviolence. The canaanites were abhored by g*d for killing their firstborn child as an offering to their god moloch. The palestinians sacrifice their children in the same way. G*d stopped Abraham from sacrificing Issac, G*d does not want us sacrificing our children, conditioning them to ignore their feelings and needs, or allowing them to commit suicide in the false high of martyrdom. Many religious groups have reveled in and been sadomasochists for G*d, killing thousands for not becoming submissive. Ghandi was as well, his spin was that he was the submissive.

(24)
Yosef,
January 21, 2008 9:38 AM

Gandhi's views (from Jainism) DO parallel Judaism -

You may be right about what Gandhi said, but on the other hand, Gandhi got his views ultimately from Jainism, a religion closely related to Hinduism and Buddhism. And Jainism, in many ways, parallels Judaism a lot. Like Judaism, Jainism advocates a lot of charity, education/literacy, and respect of life. The non-violence, which is so central in Jainism, comes from the profound respect of life. So, we may disagree about what Gandhi has to say about Jews, the Holocaust, and Israel, but PLEASE do not write Gandhi off. If you did so, it's a great insult to Jainism.

(23)
Benjamin,
January 21, 2008 7:19 AM

Resentment

Is it time the Jews stop feeling resentment toward the Nazis?

Strange, I don't recall hearing anyone tell the Chinese to stop resenting what the Japanese did to them or insisting the Armenians get over what the Turks did to them. Should the Russians get beyond their "issues" with Stalin? Should the Native Americans get over their "hangups" over being massacred and uprooted?

(22)
Paul Wiinter,
January 21, 2008 5:41 AM

Non-violence?

I congratulate Rabbi Shafran on his lucid, rational and principled response to Ghandi. The Mahatma was a hypocrite to demand self-determination for non-persecuted Hindus, while advocating Jewish joy through suffering. The non-violence he advocated was effective against the British who had principles; India is in no position to practise it against Pakistan. Jesus' teaching of "turning the other cheek" might have been effective against other Jews, but the crucifying Romans didn't buy it. It is most galling that Jews are urged to show the forgiveness that Christians often preach but rarely practise toward unforgiving, vengeful, supremicist jihadis.

(21)
Beverley Pekema,
January 20, 2008 11:46 PM

Blatant Anti-semitism

Perhaps I am imagining it but from where I sit it seems that there is an escalation in anti-semitism. About to make my first pilgrimage to Israel, I enquired about their experiences from people who have been. One disturbing comment was that a visit to the Yad Vashem had been evoked thoughts as to why the Jews cannot just forget & move on. I was horrified and tried to explain the importance of remembering. Some Christian guests invited to my daughter's wedding openly told me that they would not don a Kippah and I had to take some very hard stands. The post by Mr Gandhi is symptomatic of the current state of affairs in the World.

(20)
Andrew Gelbman,
January 20, 2008 8:59 PM

Ghandi and Nazism

Ghandi was a member of the Hindu supremist movement in India that was pro-Nazi during the war and his descendents have not changed. Ghandi considered a hindu state for Indians a must-have but considered Jewish national aspirations as 'unworthy'. He counselled the Jews to commit suicide but urged Indians to build a state for themselves. The man is reprehensible as is his spawn.

(19)
Ari Stotleman,
January 20, 2008 8:19 PM

Everybody's got it out for the Jews. Now it's a prominent Hindu. And what advice would Ghandi have for Hindu train travelers being blown-up by Muslim terrorists in Kashmir? It's the Jew's fault? All the efforts and money Jews have given other oppressed peoples over the years and this is our reward? Charity starts at home. I'll take care of my own first and last, just like Mearsheimer and Walt say I do anyway..

(18)
Anonymous,
January 20, 2008 6:55 PM

Excellent and concise summation

Thank you Rabbi, for your clarity of thought and presentation. Those of honesty and peace who deplore violence and hate will appreciate the strength of your wisdom.

And for Harvey Hilbert- perhaps the difficulty is in the comprehension of the article through hasty reading, not the position. I advise you to reread.

(17)
Rebecca,
January 20, 2008 6:11 PM

The elephant in the room

Why does no one talk about the society of violence perpetuated by the Arab world,? Why is Israel held to a different accountability than any other nation? Why do we agonize over what others say of us? This outsider status will never change- we will always be treated singularly in this world. And I, for one, do not mind. BUT, I do mind how we do not discuss the reality of things. Why should we be put upon by Gandhi and his ilk, and not hold up the Arab world to them for their edification? Let's hear from these leaders who denounce us, about sucide bombers, and heretics who preach that all who are not believers in Islam are lower forms of life, and undeserving of courtesy. Let's shine a light on the rhetoric of the Arab world and see what our fellow nations say about that.

(16)
Joe Whitehead,
January 20, 2008 5:54 PM

Absolutely!

Great responce. It's amazing how a supposedly apology to the Jews is an encourgement to Israel's murderous enemies!

(15)
Anonymous,
January 20, 2008 3:56 PM

Arms and the Jew

Nonviolent resistance simply doesn't work with the depraved souls who seek to extermine the Jewish people worldwide. Proficiency in martial arts and familiary with firearms are much more effective. Candlelight vigils don't bring back the dead Jews or heal the Jews crippled by Arab terror.Su., 01/20/08

(14)
Judah,
January 20, 2008 3:51 PM

Ah yes, the pacifist Mr. Hilbert. Are you truly that naive? Violence never solves anything? That is a catchy phrase that is thrown around a lot these days. Unfortunately it has no basis in reality or common sense. Violence conducted by the allies during WW2 is the only reason that Hitler was stopped. 10 million people, primarily Jews, but also Gypsies, the handicapped, and many other "inferior" people were killed by the Nazis. If people like you were in charge, the Nazis would have marched over the face of the earth, killing tens of millions, possibly billions more. I don't know what your religious or racial profile is Mr. Hilbert, but the emboldened Nazis probably would have deemed you fit for death as well, once the Jews had been taken care of. Israel and every other soverign nation has a right to defend itself, just as individual human beings do. If a murderer broke into your home and decided to rape and kill your wife and children, would you shoot the invader if you had the chance? Or would you still stick to your principle that violence never solves anything? If you were ever the victim of true violence Mr. Hilbert, if you ever watched your family torn to bits in front of your eyes by a crazed suicide bomber, I'm willing to bet your views would change very quickly.

(13)
dov,
January 20, 2008 3:43 PM

Mr Hilbert

Harvey, when I read your words it seems that you are appealing to the weakness of human ego instead of treating Rabbi Shafran like the man he is. Otherwise, why would you accuse him of using words that seem bitter and hateful? Why not use less flamboyant and negative words to clarify the issue. The issue is not the way he expresses himself, which is your value judgement, but whether his words hold truth. I have learned that nothing is gained in a discussion by saying things that appeal to the shame of the other person. They only put people on the defensive and are used as a gambit to strengthen the position of a weak debater. Your negative interpretation of his words, and your equally negative barb, "those like yourself, who wish to stay in a violent world", in my experience, are often indicative of an attitude that is more negative or defensive. When I look at people and what they say more positively I am more pleasant to live with and much more effective at communication. Telling the person you disagree with that you will pray for them, I believe, is also a mistake. I have seen it used by religious debaters to set another person a bit off balance and give the message that they are "taking the lower road". Of course, it is a matter of timing, the first one to say it being the "winner". Yes, I may be misinterpreting you completely, but I think not. It is because you employed all three tactics together in just three sentences that it is apparent to me you are not trying to "make" any points, just to "score" some. I think you could express your point of view in a much more useful way. As far as your facts and point of view are concerned, I have always wondered if people who espouse nonviolence are often nonviolent in their thinking, speech, and interpersonal reationships, as well. Those things are violent, too. "The pen...etc." You seem to believe in that ideal. Have the people you (and others who believe as you do) live with found family life to be almost free of passive-aggressive behavior, grudge-holding, shaming, characterization, and entitlement? I think that with the peple I choose to associate with, true verbal, spiritual and emotional nonviolence is definitely the way to go. Not an easy path, but it beats the heck (pun intended) out of the alternative. Let me know, please. Thanks.

(12)
Frances,
January 20, 2008 3:16 PM

Thank you Rabbi

I do not think Mr Hilbert read the Rabbi's blog.Rabbi Shafran has said what I wanted to say but in a better way. I am fed up of the Israel bashing. Why is it that Jewish detractors feel no shame in denouncing the Jews and their homeland? It is almost as if it is an accepted custom.

The Rabbi told it as it is. If you have not walked in the shoes of a Holocaust survivor you cannot presume to know how they feel.

(11)
Beverly Kurtin,
January 20, 2008 2:18 PM

Of snakes and rats

I am reminded of the countless times my teachers in elementary and junior high school ignored other students who hit me, or pulled my hair, or tried to push me down, but instantly noticed when I took any retaliatory action to protect myself.

My fear of human rats and snakes stems from those days for that is what those people were. How apt that Mr. Ghandi speaks of snakes when referring to Arabs.

Mind you, I speak not of all Arabs. We must always remember they too are God's creation and our neighbors whom we are commanded to love as ourselves. But the land is alive with snakes would would bite us on our ankles and kill us. Thanks for the reminder.

I am old enough to have been told to my face "oh, I'm sorry, we don't rent to Jews," said after they asked what church I attended. "We don't hire Jews, Carl, would you show this Jew out of my office." Yeah, "Jew." He, too, had asked what church I went to. And legally they had the right to ask that question. Thank heavens for the civil rights legislation that Mr. King fought for.

For years I would rather cross a street rather than walk on the same side on which a center of Jew hate stood.

I use to hold Ghandi as a righteous man; no longer. He wanted freedom for HIM, not for anyone else. His grandson's tongue forks in several places.

Our most recent enemy, George W. Bush, gave false hope to our worst enemies when he said that he will make Israel leave all of the occupied land, ignorant of the fact that the Arabs think that every square centimeter of Israel IS OCCUPIED LAND. The fool!

The only hope is that we as a people can arise every morning and say Modeh. The proof that we exist under the protection of an almighty God is that we alone know who we are and where we came from. Those who would hate us are simply jealous of the One who protects us. How strange.

(10)
Anonymous,
January 20, 2008 1:13 PM

far from hateful

Mr. Herbert, the previous post-er, mistakes a diligent opposition to evil for hatefulness. Rabbi Shafran accurately alerts us to where the real matters reside, and where the truest, most direct path to shleimus runs. We should busy ourselves with two things: opposing evil; and trying to see the message Hashem is giving us about steadfastness, unity, and dveikus.

(9)
Marsha G.,
January 20, 2008 12:25 PM

Just the facts..

Rabbi Shafran speaks factually, Mr. Hilbert and I find it incomprehensible that you would accuse him of otherwise. You accuse the Rabbi of being FOR violence, when it is constantly the Jews (and the rest of the non-Islamic world now) that are the victims of violence. Bitter? I think at this point Jews are entitled to it. But turning the other cheek is a Christian concept, not a Jewish one. Unlike it's neighbors, Jewish children in Israel are not taught to hate. You need to do some reading, Mr.Hilbert.

(8)
Aonymous,
January 20, 2008 11:56 AM

Mr.Hilbert too missed the point

Dear Mr. Hilbert you seem like a very caring person and I'm sure you intended well with your post. I think you misunderstood the Rabbi though. He was in no way condoning violence, the point he was making is that there seems to be a de-emphasis on Israel's right to exist and a strong emphasis on peace at all cost. It almost seems as though we're willing to throw he baby out with the bath water. The distinction between condoning violence vs. self defense seems to be blurred. Having been to Israel myself I would say it is anything but a "culture of violence". I as well as the Israeli Arabs walking with me felt safer in those streets late at night then anywhere else in the world. Gandhi's idea of conflict resolution is reminiscent of how I would ask my older daughter to "give in" to her younger brother so that he would stop fighting because she was older and more reasonable. That approach works well when fighting over toys. That's not though how we resolve international conflicts; the stakes are too high.

(7)
Ruth Housman,
January 20, 2008 11:54 AM

Ghandi

I didn't know Ghandi had said this about the Jews during those terrible years that defy imagination. It's wrong to ask another person to martyr themselves for a cause and to say that these deaths would bring inner peace is so totally against conscience. Now I know that Ghandi is reputed to have worked to change inequities that are massive within India. I just watched the movie WATER which I think is a fair depiction of what was going on, for women who were widows and therefore made to beg in the streets. Such awful stories that are about power in the name of codified precepts. I do believe any statements that condone surrender to tyranny as being in our best interests need to be closely monitored.

I would not sling the arrow back and call this evil and thus promote more hate and misunderstanding, however and tar a man and his children in this way. It isn't helpful. What is helpful?Dialogue and more Dialogue. We need to open doors and not close them. Unfortunately, we too get angry and upset beyond upset and we also do and say things we live to regret.

(6)
Anonymous,
January 20, 2008 11:52 AM

Harvey - You too have missed the point

Thank you Rabbi Shafran for a most interesting article, and for teaching me something I did not know about Gandhi. I am afraid that "Harvey" has also missed the point, but of your article! However, in these absolutely illogical times, people who are not Torah observant will not see things as they really are, and we can only hope and pray that Mashiach should come soon.

(5)
Betsy Penn,
January 20, 2008 11:27 AM

Harvey Hilbert needs to find the truth

do some research instead of adopting a stance that sounds good to you, and sounds right to you. get the facts. quantum mechanics certainly does not sound right to scientists and yet...it's what's reallly happening. read "From Time Immemoriial" by Joan Peters. you have been deceived and it's hard to get through to you because your self-image as a good and intelligent person is tied up with your opinion. in other words, your ego is at stake. this book will open your mind to the truth. you need to read it.

(4)
Stu Boyar,
January 20, 2008 10:33 AM

Good work Rabbi

Thank you Rabbi. You are right on target. Its okay to attack, be it verbablly or physically, Jews, but G-d forbid some say something, SAY SOMETHING remotely critical of anyone or anything in the Arab Muslim world, there is outrage followed by murder and mayhem. Remember the Mohammed cartoons ? I'm constantly astonished by how wrong the world often gets things when it comes to Israelis and Jews.

(3)
Howard Newman,
January 20, 2008 10:09 AM

Thank you

Thank you Rabbi for steadfaslty speakng the truth. The "useful idiots" like Mr Hilbert fail to recongnize that they will be first to go if we don't have the strentgh and courage to confront or enemies and disabuse others of their hateful lies.

(2)
Albert E.,
January 20, 2008 9:21 AM

Ghandi

Ghandi told his own people the same thing. When the partition of British India began, fighting between Hindu and Muslim on a massive scale began. Had happened before, but now on a nation wide scale. Ghandi told the Hindu to stand there and allow the Muslim to slaughter them - - showing the Muslim in the process that they, the Hindu, meant the Muslim NO HARM. The minds of the Muslim would be changed and peace would be everywhere!!

Sure.

The reputation of Ghandi IN INDIA IS NOT AS GREAT AS WE IN THE WEST WOULD ASSUME IT IS!!

Bert.

(1)
Harvey Hilbert,
January 20, 2008 9:11 AM

So, violence is your solution?

Rabbi, Your words seem bitter and hateful. Violence never solves a problem. It may protect us in the moment, but in the end, simply creates more fuel for those, like yourself, who wish to stay in a violent world. I pray you begin to think out of this dangerous box and look for ways to create pathways for peace.