Your initial post was stating since the return Michelin, the front continues to be an issue for ALL riders. I didn't agree with it and actually ignored it to continue playing GR Wildlands while taking a break from studying for a IT cert. p4p1 called me out and that's who I responded to, but you jumped in to defend your post. You were the one that got emotional and negative, I didn't attack you. Just an observation..........

In this case you were both referred to in your absence by someone else and it was indeed damp, as well as cool which doesn't seem to suit the Yamahas.

However, exactly why is it impossible that the Michelin front is problematic, and why is it unreasonable to think it may be?

Numerous riders have had front end washouts, including riders not prone to same historically such as Rossi and Lorenzo last year, and several of them have said the front end lose was inexplicable and not due to rider error, while no rider to my knowledge has said the tyre is fine and unproblematic. In addition, a rider who has won 2 premier class world titles and 38 races and unlike the current riders does not have a contractual gag order in regard to criticising tyres, has ridden the tyres on a gp bike in official testing and said last year that he believed there was a problem with the Michelin front and in particular that it was mismatched with the rear.

I'm very confused why from what we see here Rossi fans in particular feel the need to jump in a defend Michelin. Even Rossi has had some pretty negative comments about the tyre and has had unexplained washouts. At COTA Rossi was on record saying that he didn't think a drop of 5-6 degrees would effect the tyres so much. That's a man who's been racing in the top class since 2000, if he didn't expect such a drop off it is more than fair to say that right now the Michelin tyres are substandard.

Oh and Vudu I called you out because after Marquez's unexplained washout(telemetry shows nothing different in that lap) in Argentina you were stupidly quick to say that Vinaeles is in his head. Vinaeles then has a quick crash trying to catch Marquez and has a small uncharacteristic crash in practise yet not a peep about Vinaeles' head. Why?

In this case you were both referred to in your absence by someone else and it was indeed damp, as well as cool which doesn't seem to suit the Yamahas.

However, exactly why is it impossible that the Michelin front is problematic, and why is it unreasonable to think it may be?

Numerous riders have had front end washouts, including riders not prone to same historically such as Rossi and Lorenzo last year, and several of them have said the front end lose was inexplicable and not due to rider error, while no rider to my knowledge has said the tyre is fine and unproblematic. In addition, a rider who has won 2 premier class world titles and 38 races and unlike the current riders does not have a contractual gag order in regard to criticising tyres, has ridden the tyres on a gp bike in official testing and said last year that he believed there was a problem with the Michelin front and in particular that it was mismatched with the rear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by p4p1

I'm very confused why from what we see here Rossi fans in particular feel the need to jump in a defend Michelin. Even Rossi has had some pretty negative comments about the tyre and has had unexplained washouts. At COTA Rossi was on record saying that he didn't think a drop of 5-6 degrees would effect the tyres so much. That's a man who's been racing in the top class since 2000, if he didn't expect such a drop off it is more than fair to say that right now the Michelin tyres are substandard.

Recency effect — the tendency to weigh recent events more than earlier events.

Numerous riders always have front end washouts every season, it doesn't matter what brand is stamped on the sidewalls. Do you have data that shows there were more front end washouts on the Michelins in 2016 compared to any season that was run on Bridgestones? It's funny that every time a rider crashes now, it's Michelins fault. If that's the case, what exactly was the reason for the numerous crashes on Bridgestones? It's like you're expecting crash-proof tires or all riders to have nothing but positive feedback for the tires. That'll never happen no matter the manufacturer! There was plenty of negative comments made towards the Bridgestones, it's nothing new.

Oh and Vudu I called you out because after Marquez's unexplained washout(telemetry shows nothing different in that lap) in Argentina you were stupidly quick to say that Vinaeles is in his head. Vinaeles then has a quick crash trying to catch Marquez and has a small uncharacteristic crash in practise yet not a peep about Vinaeles' head. Why?

Marquez took off like an animal at Argentina (even Cal said this) and made a mistake that cost him the race. IMO, his race strategy was to start fast because he knew Vinales had shown a better race pace in the FP sessions. So yes, MV was in his head.

At COTA MV made a rider error and yesterday he got caught out by damp conditions. That's why I haven't made a peep about Vinales' head, he hasn't shown any sort of cracking or changing his strategies based on what Marquez is doing.

Recency effect — the tendency to weigh recent events more than earlier events.

Numerous riders always have front end washouts every season, it doesn't matter what brand is stamped on the sidewalls. Do you have data that shows there have been more front end washouts on the Michelins in 2016 compared to any season that was run on Bridgestones? It's funny that every time a rider crashes now, it's Michelins fault. Then what exactly was the reason for the numerous crashes on Bridgestones? It's like you're expecting crash-proof tires or all riders to have nothing but positive feedback for the tires. That'll never happen no matter the manufacturer! There was plenty of negative comments made towards the Bridgestones, it's nothing new.

Marquez took off like an animal at Argentina (even Cal said this) and made a mistake that cost him the race. IMO, his race strategy was to start fast because he knew Vinales had shown a better race pace in the FP sessions. So yes, MV was in his head.

At COTA MV made a rider error and yesterday he got caught out by damp conditions. That's why I haven't made a peep about Vinales' head, he hasn't shown any sort of cracking or changing his strategies based on what Marquez is doing.

Perhaps not the best example where Stoner is concerned, given iirc that was the tyre which Stoner and HRC said would prove insufficiently durable in racing conditions and replaced a tyre that he and Honda wished to be retained.

Stoner actually being proven correct about that tyre, which Valentino Rossi acknowledged, hardly makes his comments about the Michelin front which you have chosen not to address less likely to be correct I wouldn't have thought.

I actually have an hypothesis which I freely admit is a theory only that Bridgestone got out because they were getting blamed for the failure of tyres which they had made to Dorna's instructions.

I think it is generally acknowledged there was a problem with the cold tyre performance of the Bridgestones prior to 2012, although if I wanted to defend Bridgestone as you do Michelin I could question whether they should have been blamed for the likes of Marco Simoncelli not waiting for his tyres to warm up. Bridgestones being problematic in the past doesn't preclude Michelins being problematic now anyway.

Numerous riders always have front end washouts every season, it doesn't matter what brand is stamped on the sidewalls. Do you have data that shows there were more front end washouts on the Michelins in 2016 (simply cannot recall to many if any similar during the 'stone years) compared to any season that was run on Bridgestones? It's funny that every time a rider crashes now, it's Michelins fault. If that's the case, what exactly was the reason for the numerous crashes on Bridgestones? It's like you're expecting crash-proof tires or all riders to have nothing but positive feedback for the tires. That'll never happen no matter the manufacturer! There was plenty of negative comments made towards the Bridgestones, it's nothing new.

Very true that front end crashes occur each year, in each class and on each manufacturer but I will not deny that some of those since the return of Michelin have been rather perplexing and really, do seem to support the 'small operating temperature band' comments that have been flying around.

Whilst we will always see lean angles overload and washout, braking overload and washout, and even the damp patch washout I have to admit that some of the more upright washouts are interesting (ie. some of those at T4 PI last year throughout the weekend).

Specifically I refer to the crash that occurs in dry, on a slick tyre but looks suspiciously similar to the type of crash you will see in the wet when one brakes to hard and suddenly they are on the deck (Rossi Assen for example).

May well be wrong as there is not enough 'crash type' data around but I cannot recall to many crashes going back year of the nature of those upright style of crash and thus is why I have said since last year, that season 2017 is the year where Michelin can be judged as they have a season full of data and thus should have learnt.

Perhaps not the best example where Stoner is concerned, given iirc that was the tyre which Stoner and HRC said would prove insufficiently durable in racing conditions and replaced a tyre that he and Honda wished to be retained.

Stoner actually being proven correct about that tyre, which Valentino Rossi acknowledged, hardly makes his comments about the Michelin front which you have chosen not to address less likely to be correct I wouldn't have thought.

I actually have an hypothesis which I freely admit is a theory only that Bridgestone got out because they were getting blamed for the failure of tyres which they had made to Dorna's instructions.

I think it is generally acknowledged there was a problem with the cold tyre performance of the Bridgestones prior to 2012, although if I wanted to defend Bridgestone as you do Michelin I could question whether they should have been blamed for the likes of Marco Simoncelli not waiting for his tyres to warm up. Bridgestones being problematic in the past doesn't preclude Michelins being problematic now anyway.

No, it just means it's another normal MotoGP season. Tires will always be problematic (could even be at the request of Dorna). The arguments presented here lately seem to imply that things would be better if Bridgestones were still in use, but I don't see how things would be better or worse. Numerous riders would still be crashing and there would still be plenty of issues.

No, it just means it's another normal MotoGP season. Tires will always be problematic (could even be at the request of Dorna). The arguments presented here lately seem to imply that things would be better if Bridgestones were still in use, but I don't see how things would be better or worse. Numerous riders would still be crashing and there would still be plenty of issues.

The contention you oppose is that there were systematic washouts of the Michelin front last year, and as I have said twice now Casey Stoner considered the tyre to be problematic and mismatched with the rear.

This may be incorrect, but I don't see how it is "just another MotoGP season".

The contention you oppose is that there were systematic washouts of the Michelin front last year, and as I have said twice now Casey Stoner considered the tyre to be problematic and mismatched with the rear.

This may be incorrect, but I don't see how it is "just another MotoGP season".

Stoner gave his opinion, doesn't make him correct. Lap records don't continue to fall with mismatched front & rear tires. Perhaps the issue was on the GP16 Stoner was testing where the front and rear weren't properly matched. I don't hear Marquez, Rossi, Pedrosa, Crutchlow, or Vinales, claiming the front and rear tire profiles don't match. It's an in-active test rider with the least amount of time on the tires making that claim.