Monday, September 21, 2009

TurretinFan: Harold Camping's Achilles Heel: Why Family Radio's Date for the End of the World is Wrong

"TurretinFan" (a pseudonym used in order to separate his secular career from his apologetics ministry), a contributor to Dr. James R. White's blog on the Alpha & Omega Ministries web site (http://www.aomin.org/), will reveal "Harold Camping's Achilles Heel: Why Family Radio's Date for the End of the World is Wrong!"

Most Christians in America know that Harold Camping, founder & president of Family Stations Inc. (Family Radio), once predicted Jesus Christ would return in 1994 and that the end of the world would soon follow. Since we have now reached September of 2009 that prediction was obviously false. Mr. Camping and his followers now proclaim May 21, 2011 as the date for the Rapture and October 21, 2011 as the date for the end of the world.

During a recent 4-day "Iron Sharpens Iron" radio debate Mr. Camping participated in with Dr. James R. White of Alpha & Omega Ministries, our guest today called in during the the call-in segment of the broadcast and asked one question of Mr. Camping. His question was: "What was the name of Moses' father?"

Why did "TurretinFan" ask the question?

He knew that Mr. Camping's answer would demonstrate that he was unwilling to submit to Scripture.

30 comments:

Could not Amram be called the father of Moses in the same sense that Shem is called the father of the children of Eber in Genesis 10:21, or in the same sense that Abraham is called the father of Jacob in Genesis 28:13? So the question is: Who is really unwilling to submit to Scripture? Someone who will take one verse, isolate it from it's context (THE WHOLE BIBLE), and draw a conclusion ignoring OTHER possibilities from scripture? Or someone who compares scripture with scripture and draws a conclusion that harmonizes with EVERTHING the Bible has to say on a subject? Not a TurretinFan

Gen 10:21 Unto Shem also, the father of all the children of Eber, the brother of Japheth the elder, even to him were children born.

That's not similar to the expression used regarding Amram and Moses.

Gen 28:13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;

That also is not similar to the expression used regarding Amram and Moses.

a) "Someone who will take one verse, isolate it from it's context (THE WHOLE BIBLE), and draw a conclusion ignoring OTHER possibilities from scripture?"

One verse? You need to listen more carefully. Jochebed is said to be Moses' mother in 2 verses, and Amram his father in 4 verses.

There's no verse in the whole Bible that says differently than those four verses - and no Biblical reason to deny the plain truth that Amram was Moses' father.

Far from ignoring the other claims, we positively refute them. It is dead wrong to assert that Amram was not Moses father: it is rebellion against the author of Scripture to deny that Scripture speaks the truth.

b) "Or someone who compares scripture with scripture and draws a conclusion that harmonizes with EVERTHING the Bible has to say on a subject?"

Camping's position is not drawn from Scripture. Camping cannot tell you who he thinks Moses' real father is, because Camping insists on ignoring the plain Scriptural testimony (doubled and doubled again) on the matter. It is actually Mr. Camping who insists on isolating a single verse (Exodus 12:40) from the context of Genesis and Exodus, misinterpreting its sense, and imposing a sense on it to fit his flawed chronology.

The length of Israel's sojourn in Egypt is one area where I disagree sharply with TF. He thinks the 400 year sojourn began with the promise to Abraham in Genesis 15, and entails 215 years with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Then 215 years was spent in Egypt. I believe Israel (the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - the men who all received the promise) spent 430 years from the time of Jacob's entrance into Egypt at Genesis 46 until the exodus as recorded in Exod. 12:40, 41.

And, just so that everyone knows where I am coming from: I am a graduate of Master's Seminary, I currently work with Grace to You radio ministries, Phil Johnson is a dear friend, and I have had lunch with James White twice and hope to someday go out to shoot handguns with him. I deplore Harold Camping's delusional date setting exegesis.

That's what I alluded to when I mentioned that although there are folks who might say that the stay was longer than 215, they would tend not to do so in a way that is helpful to Camping, but rather in a way that's unhelpful.

In other words, (while it's still an important question), one could hold to a long view of the time in Exodus without adopting Camping's technique.

"And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to HIS SEED after him, WHEN AS YET HE HAD NO CHILD. And God spake on this wise, That HIS SEED should SOJOURN in a STRANGE LAND; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years. And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage WILL I JUDGE, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place" Acts 7:5-7

In Acts 7:5-7, God looks back to Genesis 15:13, how Abraham's seed would sojourn in a strange land........and that nation God would judge.

In looking at Abraham's seed in the very next verse:

"And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham BEGAT Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac BEGAT Jacob; and Jacob BEGAT the twelve patriarchs." Acts 7:8

Here God defines Abraham's seed....

1. Isaac2. Jacob3. The 12 patriarchs

So, Isaac is included as part of Abraham's seed, and the 400 years of affliction...God spoke Genesis 15:13 to Abraham when "he had no child." And that first child, the first of his seed was Abraham.

"Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, IN ISAAC SHALL THY SEED BE CALLED" Romans 9:7

So, God is clear in Acts 7:5-8, that Isaac is included in the 400 years of affliction...

More evidence...

In Acts 7:6, God says that Abraham's seed would sojourn in a STRANGE land....

The word "strange" is Strong 245 in the Greek...

Is the same word that is used in Hebrews 11:

"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he SOJOURNED in the land of promise, as in a STRANGE COUNTRY, dwelling in tabernacles WITH ISAAC and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise" Hebrews 11:8-9

The same word "strange" is used, Strong 245. Abraham sojourned in a "strange" land WITH ISAAC....

So, the argrument that some use that the "strange land" only refers to the land of Egypt, is false..

In Acts 7:7

"And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I JUDGE, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place." Acts 7:7

God will judge the nation whom they are in bondage.

Notice it does not say:

"The nation of Egypt alone"

A few verses later an example is given of more than one nation that comes under judgment:

"Now there came a dearth over all the land of Egypt AND Chanaan, and great affliction: and our fathers found no sustenance." Acts 7:11

A great dearth or "famine" was over the land of Egypt AND Canaan, and a "great affliction." It is clear that God's judgment as defined in Acts 7:7 is upon more than one nation....

So, in looking at those who support Camping's 430-years in Egypt doctrine, they have to come up with these progressive revelation additions and subtractions:

1. God refers to "Jacob" in Galatians 3 and the 430 years, when nine times Abraham is mentioned and Jacob is not mentioned at all.

2. God is not including Isaac in Acts 7:5-8, as far as the 400 years, when Isaac's name is clearly mentioned...

3. God is not including Abraham and Isaac as sojourning in a "strange" land, when Hebrews 11:8-9 clearly says they did...

4. God is not including Joseph's time in Egypt as part of the 400 years of affliction, when Acts 7:9-10 clearly includes him

5. God is only including Egypt in Acts 7:7, when Acts 7:11 clearly says Egypt and Canaan.

So, it is clear that the 430-year in Egypt doctrine cannot stand Biblically...

They must make "additions" and "subtractions" to the Word of God - Revelation 22:18-19, in order to prove their false calendar...

"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto ABRAHAM, saying, IN THEE SHALL ALL NATIONS BE BLESSED." Galatians 3:7-8

Notice, the promise was given to Abraham. In Abraham shall all nations be blessed...looking back to Genesis 12:2.

"That the BLESSING OF ABRAHAM might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Galatians 3:14

The focus is all on Abraham.

As we continue to the next verse.....

"Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's COVENANT, yet if it be CONFIRMED, no man DISANNULLETH, or addeth thereto." Galatians 3:15

God confirms the covenant is with Abraham.....no man disannulleth

As we continue....

"Now to ABRAHAM and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." Galatians 3:16

The promise begins with Abraham...

As we continue...

"And this I say, that the COVENANT, that was CONFIRMED before of God in Christ, THE LAW, which was four hundred and thirty years AFTER, CANNOT DISANNUL, that it should make the promise of none effect." Galatians 3:17

Notice the similar language to Galatians 3:15....the covenant is CONFIRMED and CANNOT DISANNUL.

There was 430 years from the covenant to the law.....

As we read on....

"For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but GOD GAVE IT TO ABRAHAM BY PROMISE." Galatians 3:18

The promise and the covenant was given to ABRAHAM. God gave IT, meaning the covenant by promise to Abraham.

The entire chapter is about ABRAHAM.

430 years after Abraham's covenant was the law.....

To say that "Jacob" is is view in these verses, to support 430 years in Egypt, is to alter the Word of God....

"And I appeared unto ABRAHAM, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them. And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of CANAAN, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were STRANGERS." Exodus 6:3-4

God recognizes BOTH the land of Canaan and Egypt as the land that they were strangers...and begins with ABRAHAM as the name mentioned.

"And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the SELFSAME DAY it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt" Exodus 12:41

The selfsame day, 430 years later, Israel went out of Egypt.

The self same day that God made the covenant with Abraham, 430 years earlier..

"In the SAME DAY the LORD made a COVENANT with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Eu-phra'tes" Genesis 15:18

7. September 24, 1995 - Camping prediction # 6 - Camping claims that there is Biblical evidence of Christ returning "383 days" after September 6, 1994. Camping also claims that September 24, 1995 is 721 + 91 Ceros(A ceros is little over 18 years - 223 lunar cycles or revolutions. A ceros is the complete revoluation of the sun, moon, stars and planets) - Camping claims that these revolutions can predict the end. Camping also states that if you divide the 2300 days of Daniel 8 by the number "6" you get 383. Thus, according to Camping, you can add 383 days to September 6, 1994 and come to September 24, 1995. September 24, 1995 ends the magic 383 day period. Camping looks to astrology to predict the end...

"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he SOJOURNED in the land of promise, as in a STRANGE COUNTRY, dwelling in tabernacles WITH ISAAC and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise" Hebrews 11:8-9

"And God spake on this wise, That HIS SEED should SOJOURN in A STRANGE LAND; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years." Acts 7:6

Looking at faithful commentaries on Acts 7:6

"Four hundred years are counted from the beginning of Abraham's progeny, which was at THE BIRTH OF ISAAC: and four hundred and thirty years which are spoken of by Paul in Ga 3:17, from the time that Abraham and his father departed together out of Ur of the Chaldeans." Geneva Study Bible

"Four hundred years. In round numbers, counting from the time THE SEED, ISAAC, should be born to the Exodus. It is stated in Ex 12:40 that the sojourning of the children of Israel was 430 years. This includes the period from the call of Abraham to the Exodus. See Ga 3:16,17. But Isaac was born about thirty years after the call of Abraham, which leaves Stephen's period of 400 years." People's New Testament

"..which must be reckoned not from the time of their going down into Egypt, which to their coming up out of it were but two hundred and ten years, but from THE BIRTH OF ISAAC" John Gill

The faithful of the past understood the Bible than the apostates today...

Acts 7:6 does not begin with Egypt, as the Campingites claim, it begins with Isaac...the first of Abraham's seed.

"And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham BEGAT ISAAC, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs." Acts 7:8

This fact alone destroys all of Camping's dates, and the 430-year in Egypt doctrine...the Campingites must "exclude" Isaac as Abraham's seed, in order to prove the 430-year in Egypt doctrine...

2011 is not 7,000 years from the flood.

All of Camping's dates are wrong!!

All the 2011 websites are wrong!!!

Judgment is upon them......

This brings great trauma and dismay to the Campingites, as they know that they have been snared....

"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he SOJOURNED in the land of promise, as in a STRANGE COUNTRY, dwelling in tabernacles WITH ISAAC and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise" Hebrews 11:8-9

"And God spake on this wise, That HIS SEED should SOJOURN in A STRANGE LAND; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years." Acts 7:6

Looking at faithful commentaries on Acts 7:6

"Four hundred years are counted from the beginning of Abraham's progeny, which was at THE BIRTH OF ISAAC: and four hundred and thirty years which are spoken of by Paul in Ga 3:17, from the time that Abraham and his father departed together out of Ur of the Chaldeans." Geneva Study Bible

"Four hundred years. In round numbers, counting from the time THE SEED, ISAAC, should be born to the Exodus. It is stated in Ex 12:40 that the sojourning of the children of Israel was 430 years. This includes the period from the call of Abraham to the Exodus. See Ga 3:16,17. But Isaac was born about thirty years after the call of Abraham, which leaves Stephen's period of 400 years." People's New Testament

"..which must be reckoned not from the time of their going down into Egypt, which to their coming up out of it were but two hundred and ten years, but from THE BIRTH OF ISAAC" John Gill

The faithful of the past understood the Bible than the apostates today...

Acts 7:6 does not begin with Egypt, as the Campingites claim, it begins with Isaac...the first of Abraham's seed.

"And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham BEGAT ISAAC, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs." Acts 7:8

This fact alone destroys all of Camping's dates, and the 430-year in Egypt doctrine...the Campingites must "exclude" Isaac as Abraham's seed, in order to prove the 430-year in Egypt doctrine...

2011 is not 7,000 years from the flood.

All of Camping's dates are wrong!!

All the 2011 websites are wrong!!!

Judgment is upon them......

This brings great trauma and dismay to the Campingites, as they know that they have been snared....

Besides the evidence of Amram, Jochebed, and Kohath that destroy the 430 year doctrine, below is a summary of evidence to why Israel was not in Egypt 430 years

The first post is reasons 1-6

1. Exodus 12:40 - The Samaritan Pentateuch & The Septuagint

Both the Samaritan Pentateuch and the Septuagint translate Exodus 12:40 with the phrase "in the land of Canaan AND in the land of Egypt." This alone destroys the 430-year in Egypt doctrine.

2. Exodus 12:40 - The Mastoretic Text

In the Masoretic text, as translated to the KJV, Exodus 12:40 does not say Israel was in Egypt 430 years, but the "sojournings" of the children of Israel was 430 years. The sojournings began with Abraham - Genesis 12:10, Genesis 20:1, Genesis 21:24, Genesis 23:3-4, Hebrews 11:8-9

"And Abraham SOJOURNED in the PHILISTINES' LAND many days." Genesis 21:34

Abraham sojourned in a strange land, the land of the Philistines..

"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he SOJOURNED in the land of promise, as in A STRANGE COUNTRY, dwelling in tabernacles with ISAAC and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise" Hebrews 11:8-9

Both Abraham and Isaac were sojourners....Abraham and Isaac are not excluded.

3. Exodus 12:40-41 is defined by Galatians 3:16-18.

God reveals who is in view.

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave IT to ABRAHAM by PROMISE." Galatians 3:16-18

The covenant and the promise was give to Abraham. The 430 years begin with Abraham. Abraham is mentioned nine times in the book of Galatians. Jacob is not mentioned at all. The Campingites skip over Abraham AND skip over Isaac and claim Jacob is in view...

4. Jacob's name MISSING from Exodus 12:40

Jacob's name is NOT mentioned in Exodus 12:40. Abraham's name IS mentioned in Galatians 3:16-18, in referring to the 430 years...

5. In Exodus 6:4-5

In Exodus 6:4-5, God recognizes both the land of Canaan and Egypt

"And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of CANAAN, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were STRANGERS. And I have ALSO heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant." Exodus 6:4-5

Notice, God recognizes the land of Canaan where they were strangers and Egypt. 2 nations.

6. Genesis 15:13 is defined by Acts 7:6-36

"And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had NO CHILD. And God spake on this wise, That HIS SEED should SOJOURN in A STRANGE LAND; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years." Acts 7:5-6

God told Abraham that his seed would sojourn in a strange land for 400 years......who is Abraham's seed? Acts 7:8

"And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham BEGAT ISAAC, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs" Acts 7:8

"Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In ISAAC shall THY SEED be called" Romans 9:7

"And the patriarchs, moved with envy, sold Joseph into Egypt: but God was with him, And delivered him out of all his afflictions, and gave him favour and wisdom in the sight of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and he made him governor over Egypt and all his house" Acts 7:9-10

In talking about the 400 years of affliction, God mentions Joseph in Egypt. He clearly is Abraham's seed as well. The supporters of the 430 years in Egypt doctrine, they claim that Joseph's time in Egypt, his slavery, his prison time, is "not included" amongst the 400 years of affliction....despite God clearly saying he is.

Joseph was in Egypt before Jacob - Exodus 1:5

8. Acts 7:7

"And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I JUDGE, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place." Acts 7:7

Notice....it does not say "the nation of Egypt." Acts 7:11 clearly shows 2 nations that came under judgment:

"Now there came A DEARTH over all the land of Egypt AND Chanaan, and GREAT AFFLICTION: and our fathers found no sustenance." Acts 7:11

We also see that God's terror came upon cities in Canaan - Genesis 35:5, during the days of Jacob. God's judgment was upon more than one nation.

9 Maximum Time Of 352 Years

There is a maximum time of 352 years available for a sojourn in Egypt, whatever that sojourn may encompass. There simply is no way around that fact.

10. Josephus

Looking at the secular evidence, we see the secular evidence harmonizes with the Biblical account:

In Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus wrote that the Israelites “left Egypt in the month of Xanthicus, on the fifteenth day of the lunar month; four hundred and thirty years after our forefather Abraham came into Canaan, but two hundred and fifteen years only after Jacob removed into Egypt” (II. 15.2).

11. Bible Teachers Of The Past

All the church fathers, such as John Gill, Matthew Henry, Martin Luther, John Wesley, Adam Clarke, also agreed that the 430 years in Galatians 3:17, goes from Abraham to the law, and the 400 years of affliction in Acts 7:6, begins with Isaac.

12. Abraham mentioned Nine Times in Exodus and Galatians 3

God mentions Abraham NINE times in the book of Exodus. It is clear that God mentions him like in Exodus 6:3-4, to show where the beginning started, as God mentions Abraham nine times in Galatians 3, to show where the beginning started.

"In THE SAME DAY the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Eu-phra'tes" Genesis 15:13

"And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the SELFSAME DAY it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt" Exodus 12:41

"And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave IT to ABRAHAM by PROMISE." Galatians 3:17-18

It is clear that in Galatians 3:17-18, God looks back to Genesis 15:18 and Exodus 12:41, and the 430 years...Israel left Egypt 430 years to the day of the covenant with Abraham.

In Camping's false book "Adam When?," he makes the following statements:

"....Moses was the son of the UNNAMED man and woman of Exodus 2:1" Adam When? Page 47

When we look at Exodus 2:1

"And there went a man of the house of Levi, and took to wife A DAUGHTER OF LEVI. And the woman conceived, and bare a son: and when she saw him that he was a goodly child, she hid him three months." Exodus 2:1

Camping does not allow the Bible to reveal who this is:

"And Amram took him Jochebed his father's sister to wife; and she bare him Aaron and Moses: and the years of the life of Amram were an hundred and thirty and seven years." Exodus 6:20

"And the name of AMRAM'S WIFE was JOCHEBED, the DAUGHTER OF LEVI, whom her mother bare to Levi in Egypt: and she bare unto Amram Aaron and Moses, and Miriam their sister." Numbers 26:59

Isn't is strange that 4x in the Bible, God reveals who the father and mother of Moses is, but according to Camping and his satanic slaves, the 4x this is mentioned, it is not referring to them, it is a "mystery" to why Amram and Jochebed are even named so many times (4)....and the information of who actually is the father and mother of Moses is "totally missing" from the Bible.

While Camping and his devils want you to think the father of Moses is "missing," the secular evidence agrees with the Biblical account.

The Testament of Amram, as uncovered from the Dead Sea Scrolls, 4Q543, Fragment 1:

A copy [of the book of the words of the vis]ion of Amram the son of Kohath, the son of Levi: all

(2) that [he revealed to his sons and that he commanded t]hem on the day [of his death, in] the year

(3) one hundred and thirty-six, whi[ch] was the year of his death, [in the o]ne hundred

(4) and fifty-second year of the exil[e of Israel to Egypt . . . upon [him, and he sent]

(5) to call Uzziel his youngest brother, and [gave] to him [in marr]iage [MIRI]AM [his] daughter. [For he said]

(6) ‘You (MIRIAM) are thirty years old.’ Then he gave a wedding feast seven [day]s long,

(7) and ate and drank and rejoiced at the feast. Then, when

(8) the Mays of the wedding feast were completed, he called for AARON HIS SON . Now, [h]e (AARON) was a man of . . . years of age *********************************************************Both Miriam and Aaron are mentioned in the writings of Amram as found in the Dead Sea Scrolls!!

Amram was the father of Moses, Aaron and Miriam, in Amram's own words!!!!

"Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the BOOK OF JASHER)" II Samuel 1:18

In the Bible, God makes reference to the book of Jasher. The Book of Jasher is not the Word of God (with the exception of whatever verses God uses from them), however, it is still a good reference to historical accounts.

So, in comparing the Biblical account to a secular historical account, if the secular historical account disagrees with the Biblical account, then we have to say the secular account is wrong. If the secular account agrees with the Biblical account, that is just more confirmation on the correct understanding of the Biblical account.

When we look at what the Bible says about Amram and Jochebed, we see that 4x God mentions that Amram is the father of Moses -

Exodus 6:20Numbers 26:59I Chronicles 6:3I Chronicles 23:13

The Bible is clear that Amram is the father of Moses, Aaron and Miriam, and Jochebed was their mother.

When we look at the secular evidence, we see it confirms the Biblical account:

The Testament of Amram, as uncovered from the Dead Sea Scrolls, 4Q543, Fragment 1:

A copy [of the book of the words of the vis]ion of Amram the son of Kohath, the son of Levi: all

(2) that [he revealed to his sons and that he commanded t]hem on the day [of his death, in] the year

(3) one hundred and thirty-six, whi[ch] was the year of his death, [in the o]ne hundred

(4) and fifty-second year of the exil[e of Israel to Egypt . . . upon [him, and he sent]

(5) to call Uzziel his youngest brother, and [gave] to him [in marr]iage [MIRI]AM [his] daughter. [For he said]

(6) ‘You (MIRIAM) are thirty years old.’ Then he gave a wedding feast seven [day]s long,

(7) and ate and drank and rejoiced at the feast. Then, when

(8) the Mays of the wedding feast were completed, he called for AARON HIS SON . Now, [h]e (AARON) was a man of . . . years of age

Amram talks about his son Aaron and his daughter Miriam...

Now, we have additional evidence from the Book of Jasher:

"And it was at that time the spirit of God was upon MIRIAM the DAUGHTER of Amram the SISTER of Aaron, and she went forth and prophesied about the house, saying, Behold a son will be born unto us from my father and mother this time, and he will save Israel from the hands of Egypt. And when Amram heard the words of his daughter, he went and took his wife back to the house, after he had driven her away at the time when Pharaoh ordered every male child of the house of Jacob to be thrown into the water. So Amram took Jochebed his wife, three years after he had driven her away, and he came to her and she conceived. " Book of Jasher, Chapter 68:1-3

"And Pharaoh's daughter said to JOCHEBED, Take this child away and suckle it for me, and I will pay thee thy wages, two bits of silver daily; and the woman took the child and nursed it. And at the end of two years, when the child grew up, she brought him to the daughter of Pharaoh, and he was unto her as a son, and she called his name MOSES, for she said, Because I drew him out of the water. And AMRAM HIS FATHER called his name Chabar, for he said, It was for him that he associated with his wife whom he had turned away. And JOCHEBED HIS MOTHER called his name Jekuthiel, Because, she said, I have hoped for him to the Almighty, and God restored him unto me. And MIRIAM HIS SISTERr called him Jered, for she descended after him to the river to know what his end would be. And Aaron his brother called his name Abi Zanuch, saying, My father left my mother and returned to her on his account" The Book of Jasher, Chapter 68:23-28

The Book of Jasher confirms the Biblical account!!

Miriam was the daughter of Amram, the sister of Aaron, and the sister of Moses.

Turretinfan wote earlier "...it is rebellion against the author of Scripture to deny that Scripture speaks the truth". Please tell me why God commands the true believers to " Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.5: For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.6: Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.7: How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.8: Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.9: And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,10: Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. Thanks - John

God seems to be telling us that there will come a time (or hour) that He will bring the house that is called by His name under fire (or Judgment) Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.17: For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?". Is this true? And how can we know? I am understanding that Turretfan knows a great deal more about the historical accuracy of time that the Bible gives us than Mr. Camping "presumes" to understand. Please enlighten us with your great intellect and insight if you can. Thanks - John

Also, Lambsfury please explain the Hebrew(?) words "qara shem". And why does God use it 3 times? And how is it different than all the other "begats" in the Book of Genesis? And BTW,I for one, would be very careful about using the book of Jasher as if it were included in the Holy Scriptures when Jesus Hmself did not include it, or did He use it to reference "It is written" It does in my opinion do great harm to your witness or testimony. Remember there are other churches or denominations that want to have other books added to the Holy Bible. Thanks - John

John Francis: Not every prophecy is perfectly clear. Nevertheless, I am persuaded by the Reformers that Babylon in Revelation 18 is a reference to the Roman church presently headed by Benedict XVI. Much of Rome's power (especially its secular power) has been destroyed by God already.

Revelation 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

I know that this is what the Protestant church has taught over the centuries so that is ingrained into our thinking, but since when was the Roman Catholic church ever looked upon as God's church by God, when they have always repeatedly rebelled against the very Word of God since its inception? See the "Holy See"(pope). They Book of Romans was written to the Italians just as other Books were written for other nations to guard against heresy. But sadly all have been corrupted and fallen away. The Cathlic church was given power by God to have Satan reign over idol worshippers. NOT over true believers at any time. So His commandment could not have been to "come out of her"(catholic church) as if that were His bride. No more so than to come out of a mosque, temple, tabernacle, or kingdom hall and come only to Christ the living Word - the Bible - for all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God

"And BTW,I for one, would be very careful about using the book of Jasher as if it were included in the Holy Scriptures when Jesus Hmself did not include it, or did He use it to reference "It is written."

If you read carefully I said it was not the Word of God.

Camping's secular writing of Thule are also not the Word of God, and he needs these secular books to arrive at the 931BC date of the division of the kingdom, to form his calendar. That you don't seem to mind, because the reputation of your cult leader Camping is # 1 concern.

Since 4x God mentions the parents of Moses, rest assured that God is not mentioning this 4x to still tell us that the parents of Moses are "missing" from the Bible, as your cult leader Camping declares.

The writings of Jasher, while not the Word of God, is still a historical account, that "further confirm" the Biblical account that Amram and Jochebed were the parents of Moses. No doubt about it. To your dismay.

In addition, the 430 years goes from "Abraham" to the law, not "Jacob" to the law, as Galatians 3:16-18 state. Jacob's name is not mentioned in Galatians 3:16-18, nor Exodus 12:40.

God is focusing on Abraham because in him would all nations be blessed - Galatians 3:8

In addition, if you are going to say that "Jacob" is in view, and not Abraham in Galatians 3:16-18, despite the verses clearly saying so, the covenant was also given to Jacob, WHILE HE WAS STILL IN CANAAN - Genesis 28:13-14

So, your delusion that the 430 years only begin with "Egypt" is absurd.

It is also absurd to "remove" Isaac as Abraham's seed in Acts 7:6-7 and the 400 years of affliction, when God mentions him in the next verse, Acts 7:8

Your calendar is "done."

Your cult leader Camping is "done."

And......most importantly, eternal torment is coming.

It is totally absurd to say that all verses of "weeping and gnashing of teeth" like in Matthew 13:41-43, Matthew 22:11-14, to name a few, just refer to those who rejected the book "We are almost there" and not all the unsaved..

That is how the cults think....

Eternal torment is coming and the Campingites will not escape...

And Dave Hoff, who is on the Family Radio Board of Directors also rejectes annihilation. Check out his website below:

http://www.isannihilationtrue.com/

Start weeping now that not all are in obedience to your cult leader Camping...

Lambsfury suggests that David Hoff is the final authority on annihilation. Did he write a book similar to the book of Jasher? I would think that if the Bible says that unsaved man is like the beasts that perish and are not remembered or like the grass that witherith and gone with the wind and that unsaved souls go to a place of silence, that the teaching correct that hell is eternal death or the grave where man can not rise again to eternal life whether in Hell or Heaven. Perhaps Purgatory?? Why does God use the term "qara shem" in Genesis? To show a direct father - son relationship?? And how is that different from the "begats"??

Turretinfan said... When, according to you, was its inception? I do not know the date, but I would think that when the Roman church called itself the Roman Catholic church and installed a Holy See or pope as it's wounded head that would be the beginning of the end for Christ being there. Or at the very least the Holy Spirit would have vacated the premises. There must be a known date however. If someone could give us that date it would be much appreciated. The warnings in the Book of Revelation to the 7 churches is very clear that the candle (Holy Spirit) was given on condition of their faithfulness to the Bible.

I might appreciate (grudgingly) the necessity of commercial breaks on your live broadcast, but must an international listener like myself waste money on downloading or streaming these from your archive? could this non essential stuff be editted out?

my net fee is not a flat rate with unlimited acess, but a pre paid alotment of so many gig per month, Am i to waste it on commericals for ambulance chasing lawyers of all people?

It seemed about twenty minutes before you finished the waffle and the commercials to get to the essentials of Campings heresies, only to interrupt it yet again. An hour long netcast could have been shortened by about half.

I gave up in the end.

Not that I had any doubt that Camping is false, but wasted verbiage did not help

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Chris Arnzen in Action!
Above: A video clip of Chris Arnzen Introducing The Baptism Debate, 2006. Click on the arrow to watch!

Commendations

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Chris Arnzen provides a packed hour of serious radio on Iron Sharpens Iron with meaty biblical and theological discussion and this is a rarity in today's world. Listen in. Stretch your mind. Learn the truth."---Dr. J. Ligon Duncan III, Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, President

"Chris Arnzen is a bold Christian who stands up for Christ and is not afraid to take on controversial issues. I found him to be a sharply intuitive and informed host who kept the conversation animated, fast-paced, and interesting. I thoroughly enjoyed my time with him... Thank you Chris!"---Carole Whang Schutter, Author & Screenplay Writer of "September Dawn" starring Academy Award winning actor Jon Voight

"IRON SHARPENS IRON is one of the most bold and informative programs on Christian radio. The discussions are refreshingly candid and reliably profitable, and Chris Arnzen is a superb interviewer with sound biblical instincts and a knack for asking the right questions. It¡s always an hour well spent."--- Phil Johnson, Executive Director of Grace To You, the Christian tape & radio ministry of Dr. John MacArthur

"Chris Arnzen combines the depth of a well studied theologian and the lucid insights of an experienced journalist on his new radio program, IRON SHARPENS IRON. This is a very refreshing and much needed departure from the standard 22 minutes of preprogrammed info-sermons that usually is heard on most Christian radio stations. We can only hope that this is a taste of the future of Christian radio."--- Steve Camp, apologist and award winning Christian recording artist

“Chris Arnzen is providing a great service to the church in the twenty-first century. IRON SHARPENS IRON delivers precisely what it promises—it is edifying, encouraging, and challenging. I hope the Lord continues to bless the program and that Christians throughout the world continue to be thoroughly equipped for every good work by the truth of God’s Word through this vital ministry—all for the glory of God.”—Rev. Burk Parsons, Associate Pastor with Dr. R.C. Sproul, Saint Andrew’s Chapel, Sanford, Florida, and Editor of "Tabletalk magazine"

"Chris Arnzen is a well-informed host who does his homework and asks the kinds of questions that an interviewee wants to answer, and an audience wants to hear. Lively, collegial conversation and probing questions opened up opportunities for some really valuable exchanges of information and insights."--- Latayne C. Scott, author of The Mormon Mirage

"IRON SHARPENS IRON is an exciting new Christian radio program that every believer should tune in. The program has informative and challenging interviews with some of evangelicalism's most capable theologians, apologists, and teachers. If you are looking for an entertaining, educational, and dynamic radio show, you can't afford to miss this program."--- Ken Samples, author, former co-host of The Bible Answer Man

"Those who turn to talk radio for substantive treatment of timely and timeless issues too frequently find a vast buffet of intellectual junk food; the experience is `as when an hungry man dreameth, and behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty...' (Isaiah 29:8). Chris Arnzen's program IRON SHARPENS IRON is a blessed exception, offering red-meat discussions of the most critical issues of time and eternity in a very palatable way."--- William Norman Grigg, Editor-at-large, The Right Source

"It was a distinct honor and privilege to be on Chris Arnzen'sIRON SHARPENS IRON radio broadcast. I have always found Chris to be affable, articulate, and engaging. He knows what he believes (more properly stated, he knows in Whom he believes) and is crisp and clear in his stand for truth. He has a great radio voice and personality, but more important than that, Chris has a great heart for God and the kingdom of righteousness. I believe that those who tune him in will not tune him out because he is in tune with a higher power than even the radio airwaves."--- Victor Knowles, author of Heavenly Hosts: A Panoramic Study of Angels and The Biblical Roots of Islam

"I would like to highly recommend to the Christian community a new radio program called IRON SHARPENS IRON. One of the great needs in the contemporary Christian community is some meaty discussions on theological issues. The Scripture places great value upon the necessity of sound doctrine. Many people desperately need to understand how the Bible applies to all of life. The programs that I have heard and participated in are very timely and helpful. Keep up the good work, Chris Arnzen!"--- Rev. John M. Otis, author of Danger in the Camp

"Chris Arnzen's IRON SHARPENS IRON is real Christianity. That is another way of saying he bravely tackles the hard questions of life from a Christian perspective with integrity and honesty. We need more Chris Arnzens in the media."--- Dr. Frank A. James III, President & Professor of Historical Theology, Reformed Theological Seminary, Orlando, FL

"The IRON SHARPENS IRON radio program by Chris Arnzen truly generates intelligent and animated discussions to sharpen believers and give the Gospel of grace to all. The soul-destroying lies of apostasy are demolished forcefully yet graciously. In the face of subjective irrational speculations of the present day IRON SHARPENS IRON presents the objective, rational, consistent, and all powerful truth of the written Word of God."--- Richard Bennett, former Catholic priest, Founder of Berean Beacon

"IRON SHARPENS IRON is a welcome addition to the Talk Show genre. There are enough conservative talk shows that deal with politics. Chris Arnzen routinely deals with issues far more important than politics. People would do well to listen regularly to IRON SHARPENS IRON. No one does a better job than Chris Arnzen."--- David Dykstra, author of Yearning to Breathe Free: Thoughts on Immigration, Islam & Freedom

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Party Hearty Marty & The Protestors went to the top of the CCM charts with these hits:
The Great Reformer and You Don't Own Me!
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