Windows Refund Day II: Next Steps

WindowsRefund.net
was created in September 2002 to provide a central point of
collaboration for refund-seekers all over the world. As many people
already know, computer manufacturers have been pushing the
"Microsoft Tax" onto consumers for years. Today, this situation has
gotten worse, as many customers are forced to pay for multiple
versions of Microsoft's operating system when purchasing a new
computer. For some, this may come as a shock when the growing
momentum of "Desktop Linux" is considered or when the publicity
generated by the original Windows Refund Day event is remembered.
However, the reality is this: no major computer manufacturer has
gone on record as having defined a company-wide refund procedure
designed to honor the language of Microsoft's End User License
Agreement (EULA). In other words, if someone managed to obtain a
refund for the unused Windows software they were forced to pay for,
it was simply because they were in the right place, at the right
time, dealing with the right person.

I am currently in the process of making my case against
Toshiba America Information Systems (TAIS) in Small Claims court. I
will be making my court appearance on June 30, 2003. TAIS has made
it clear they are not going to budge an inch. They will spend
thousands of dollars in legal fees to protect the hundreds that
would be paid out for this individual refund request. Does anyone
honestly think that they would continue to follow this path if only
10 additional customers filed similar actions? Personally, I don't
think it is unreasonable to expect at least one case to be filed
against a major computer manufacturer in every state of the US.
Multiple concurrent claims (regardless of which manufacturer is
targeted) will open their eyes to the magnitude of this situation.
This is the logical course of action for us to take in order to
achieve the change we are seeking.

Small Claims is not a big deal. It's simple to do if you
follow the HOWTO I published on WindowsRefund.net. After filing,
you can publish your story on the site so we all can see how many
of us finally have taken action. It's okay if you lose. It even
happened to
Walt
Pennington because of a minor technicality. The important
thing is to bring the manufacturers into court so they know we are
serious about this.

We need to do more than debate this issue on mailing lists
and Slashdot. I am suggesting that those of us who agree consumers
should not have to be forced into accepting the unwanted expense of
a preinstalled Microsoft product need to step up to the plate and
bring this into the courtrooms. I have laid the groundwork, and I
know this is strictly a numbers game at this point.

Windows
Refund Day II, held on January 23, 2003, was born out of a
simple idea. Rather than trying to organize a group event dependent
on physical location, we recognized a distributed approach could be
both easier to manage and more effective. The idea was to declare a
day where refund seekers all over the world would take their cases
to court. In preparing for the event, I was able to accomplish a
few things:

A
Refund HOWTO was written and published on
WindowsRefund.net. The purpose of the HOWTO was to provide as much
of my knowledge and real world experience to people who had never
filed a Small Claims action in court and who may have otherwise
felt intimidated by the process.

An official Call for
Action was written up and published on the
LJ site. Over the next few weeks, this news
spread like wildfire all over the Internet.

Several interviews were given on popular Internet
radio shows, including CNET and
The Linux Show.

Signature gathering was organized from several
booths in the .org pavilion during LinuxWorld Expo New York
2003.

Finally, I filed my Small Claims action against
TAIS on January 23, 2003.

What we have here is low hanging fruit that we are not
grasping. After all of the Slashdot debates, mailing list
threads/flames,
petition
signing and general applause that I have heard from our
community, it appears we still are waiting for the market to
correct this injustice. But remember, the market created the
problem in the first place. We don't need another article written
or another thread started. We need people who are willing to get up
from their couches, stand in line and file their claims, so this
issue can start getting its recognition in court. We have a unique
opportunity to introduce change and correct this problem once and
for all. But, it's going to take commitment and a showing of hands.
We should not confuse this issue with the efforts underway to see
Linux deployed as an alternative OS on computer systems. The refund
issue is a much easier battle to win, one that is absolutely
critical if we're ever going to get to that point anyway.

Comment viewing options

I posted way late (2009) but I say that, for example, if you wanted an HP laptop (maybe because they have a solid reputation, they are reliable, etc...) but you didn't want Windows on it, you should be entitled to a refund for what it cost. A lot of the Linux laptops are second-rate--maybe I want to have a Turion processor with a DVD burner and 4 gigs of RAM...not some iffy Atom processor at 1.6 GHz (which, by the way, is equal to the 1.0 GHz Pentium III according to some benchmarks)...Why would I want to have an underpowered and unestablished and uncapable PC? You can't do anything with an Atom other than web browsing. And, yes, there are Linux laptops without the Atom, but they are far and few between. Desktops, well, yes Dell offers Ubuntu, but I don't much particularly care for Dell and they price difference between the Ubuntu model and the Vista model is nonexistent. I like Gateway's desktops, but they only have Windows. So, I can rattle off a whole list of vendors pulling the same thing. And, Microsoft seems to enforce their EULA when the users are in the wrong, but when the users point something out to Microsoft that violates their own EULA, they either give you the runaround or the cold shoulder. If you promise a refund if you aren't going to use the darned thing or if you don't agree with the terms, then you better abide by it!

My point is, if you need or want Linux, and at the same time need or want a particular machine (an HP laptop, for example) you should be paid back for what you don't use. You shouldn't be denied the request, or worse, told, "Well, we have Linux laptops with [slow and useless] Intel Atom or Via C7 processors if you are interested in Linux".

Yes, the MicroSloth Drones are out in full force: the four horseman of the apocalypse sweeping the land - fear, uncertainty and doubt - yes... I realize that is only three but the fourth one isn't online at the moment due to a general protection error...

I am not sure Win refund day is the best way. In the US there is a long and sucessful history of consumer awareness
as with the meat boycott and others over 30 years ago. But elsewhere "when you walk away from the counter no mistake
will be recognized". So it looks to me like the best way
would be to simply not buy laptops with preinstalled
OS that you do not want. Pretty soon(I hope) companies like
RedHat and Suse will pick up the slack and offer laptops with
Linux preinstalled, or without any OS.
I think what would help is counting the forces, i.e. the
prospective buyers who would be interested in such laptops
and this will hopefully have Toshiba and Compaq lament their decisions.
As for refunds it would be nice to get them, but in the long
run it is changing the practice that counts. And 2000 is not 1960, a lot of things have changed, especially in the US.

BTW I work for a large company abroad and I am ordering some
special servers from Compaq(the company has a deal with Compaq for PCs-and they all come with Windows preinstalled-, told them I want Linux and they have no problem with that, so I assume the issue is only with laptops.

Well i dont want to flame but....what are you smoking? Redhat, Suse, Mandrake, any other distro would never offer their own laptops. They are trying to stay alive. Besides the laptops would just be dell/hp/toshiba etc. anyways. RedHat and companys arent dying or anything but doing something like that would be suicide. They need to just work on building their customers in the server and workstation markets. Plus Im sure manufacturers have already been threatened by MS that if they sell linux on laptops they would have their contracts revoked and wouldnt recieve anymore licenses. MS has done it before. Me personally i use linux on my laptop, 2 desktops, 3 servers and a work machine. I use nothing but linux. I would like to get my money back for my copy of WinXP from HP but i dont have the time or the patience for something like this.

Actually I do not smoke... The point is if there are enough laptop buyers who will refuse to pay for a dell/hp/toshiba laptop with windows included, then there is a business
oportunity for the Redhat, Suses etc or anyone else for that matter -just a no-name assembler who can get the hw and
actually build the laptops, no? Unless MS can influence the hardware vendors(which they might, but then I do not see why they have not done so already for the workstation and servrer market). BTW I also use nothing but linux, but have not yet had to buy a PC.

Actually, MicroSloth may be smoking something but it isn't linux - in India or anywhere else... however, they are contributing millions of dollars to emerging countries to strongarm their governments not to abandon ship in favor of open source. They are also making numerous concessions regarding their copyrighted code to many countries in order to effect the same goal... but they aren't doing any of that because they perceive linux to be a threat or anything like that... oh no... linux is just a distant and insignificant blip on the radar horizon... repeat after me... linux is just a distant and insignificant blip on the radar horizon.... this is not the OS alternative that you are looking for... move on... go on about your business

A linux creep screeching for refunds is like the fool who deloberately places himself in front of an oncoming vehicle, in the hopes that he'll be hit by the vehicle, so he can claim free insurance money!
Won't happen clowns!

You want to buy a linux PC? Go to Walmart and buy cheap, rubbish, lindows PC. No payment to Microsoft whatsoever!

If you cliam linux is better, and then turn around and deliberately go and buy a Windows PC, with the intention of fraudulently extorting money from Microsoft, then you are going to fall on your face and die!
And good riddance too!

do not worry, if you put crap hardware in, you can get
a rubbish windows laptop too(not that it's much better otherwise). WIth people like you I guess your internet provider should sell you a PC and a DSL line together with your internet subscription! Then let's see if you complain and try to fraudulently extort money from your ISP

Geeze, get a bleeping life, will you? If you don't want to buy a computer with MS software, then don't. No one is forcing you to buy anything. If you have brains enough to file in small claims, you ought to have brains enough to know you can't win, shouldn't win, and won't accomplish anything except to make yourself look like a complete idiot. This idioted refund nonsense is already one of the prime jokes making the rounds.

If you don't want to buy a computer without software, then build one. It's cheap, easy, you get much more for much less, and you can put on it only the software you intend to use.

PC makers can put any software on their computers they wish, period. You then have the complete freedom to buy it or not buy. What you don;t have is the right to tell anyone what software they can bundle, what software they can sell, or that you should get a refund for something you decided to buy. If you want a refund, you return the entire package, not just the part of it you don't like and don;t use.

I can just see you buying a new car, then demanding a refund on the cigarette lighter because you don't smoke and haven't used it.

It's this kind of small minded foolishness that clogs the courts, and makes me wonder how the human race has survived as long as it has. Not enough predators around now to weed out the weak, the foolish, and the stupid.

Mr/Ms. Microsloth Drone - in actuality, because enough of us non-smokers demanded that refund for the cigarette lighter; it is not automatically included in the purchase any longer. I know my last car came without one and yes - I did save $ 10.00 in the process. Also, please remember that most auto manufacturers provide multiple 'packages/bundles' of options so as to satisfy as many ot their customers as possible - remember, the reason that the capitalist system works is because vendor's strive to anticipate/meet the needs of the customers who, by the way, are the ones who pay the freight. It might shock you but if customers don't buy... the manufacturer's go out of business or have to modify their product offerings to stay in sync with the wishes of the public. Have you tried to buy a betamax machine lately? Lastly, and speaking of small minds - a civilized person can challenge beliefs and participate/encourage dialog without resorting to personal rants/raves against the individual... apparently, you are still working on that concept aren't you? Have a nice day - give my best to Bill.

Geeze, get a bleeping life, will you? If you don't want to buy a computer with MS software, then don't. No one is forcing you to buy anything. If you have brains enough to file in small claims, you ought to have brains enough to know you can't win, shouldn't win, and won't accomplish anything except to make yourself look like a complete idiot. This idioted refund nonsense is already one of the prime jokes making the rounds

I can just see you buying a new car, then demanding a refund on the cigarette lighter because you don't smoke and haven't used it.

Whats idiotic is your stupid comment. Cars do not come with an EULA for the lighter saying it being returned for a refund. And to make you feel better, they come with a warranty, which is NEVER true for a MS software product.

If you don't want to buy a computer without software, then build one. It's cheap, easy, you get much more for much less, and you can put on it only the software you intend to use.

Oooh !! I can build laptops in my home now, right ? I suppose all the instructions to do that are in your home page.

It's this kind of small minded foolishness that clogs the courts, and makes me wonder how the human race has survived as long as it has. Not enough predators around now to weed out the weak, the foolish, and the stupid.

Actually, you can buy a car and specify a discount for no cigarette lighter.

Pretty cool, huh? It's called "choice", and it's a prominent feature of the marketplace.

When a company dominates an industry and deprives you of choice it's called an "anticompetitive monopoly". Can you say that? I'm not so sure you can.

Of course you can have a machine built from parts, or build it yourself. But not every component is available to you, and it certainly limits the choice of a huge number of people who want good software and hardware but lack the resources or ability to do so.

The day what you wrote is actually meaningful will be a great day. Until then people like Adam are standing up for their rights and the rights of others. Advancing concepts like "human rights" are part of the reason humanity has survived so long, to answer you last troll question.

Your post: "Of course you can have a machine built from parts, or build it yourself. But not every component is available to you, and it certainly limits the choice of a huge number of people who want good software and hardware but lack the resources or ability to do so."

Tell me this: Exactly what PC component is not available easily in America?
Every single PC component is VERY EASILY AVAILABLE IN HUGE QUANTITIES in thousands of electronics shops throughout America.

You are telling fibs again aren't you?
You linux fanatics are even worse than Clinton. You lie without the least compunction.

Plus of course you CAN actually buy linux (lindows) computers from Wal-Mart, ALREADY built and assembled, and WITHOUT paying A PENNY to Microsoft!

You guys are just too funny.LOL!
You just have to find something to whine about don't you?
Even if there is any reason to whine or not!
Pathetic!

He's getting a kick out of it, of course. Remember the time-tested Usenet advice "Don't feed the trolls?" You give them what they want (attention) and they hang around. If they're ignored, they sulk away and eventually stir up trouble someplace else. It's as true here as it is on Usenet.

As far as building a laptop, the average person even a skilled person might find it a little more difficult to build and to match the correct parts together since laptops are so much more compact than desktops. So in my personal opinion you would be better off just buying one off the shelf, or if thats too pricey for you just look on someplace like e-bay or the like and put your own OS on it. Hopefully this helps a little bit for you

I definitely agree that anyone is free to choose what OS they want on their computers that they buy. They are free to wipe off all the software it came with and change it to whatever they choose. BUT...most people dont have a clue how to do this. Trust me, I work in technical support and many many people dislike windows but feel compelled to it becuase they've known nothing else and most people are too busy or just dont want to learn anything else. Period. Its really too bad, I use Suse and if it werent for the video editing capabilites in windows I would completely switch in a heart beat.

> I definitely agree that anyone is free to choose what OS they want on their computers that they buy. They are free to wipe off all the software it came with and change it to whatever they choose.

The whole point of this effort is that what they're NOT free to do is get any kind of refund for that unused software, either from Microsoft or the mfr of their computer - who's already paid their license fees to MS and don't want to have to give refunds that they themselves will never see from *their* vendor - MS.

Yes, the consumers are free to wipe the software they paid for, and throw away that money. Yikes. They should be able to have their manufacturer honor the terms of the EULA.

* sigh * This would be great if I'd ever actuall bought a real, new, out-of-the-box computer. The only brand new computer I ever bought was an Atari 400, and that didn't run WIndows. Every box I've had since then has been used, or built from parts, so I didn't have to worry about the "Tax", unless I was actually going to run Windows on it.

(Actually, I did finally buy a shiny new DELL for my son, when he went to college, but he actually uses XP. I've just got to get my hands on some software to shrink the Windows partition down so he can install Linux on a second partition...)

"You agree to be bound by the terms of this
EULA by installing, copying, downloading, accessing or otherwise
using the SOFTWARE PRODUCT. If you do not agree, Manufacturer
and Microsoft Licensing, Inc. ("MS") are unwilling to license the
SOFTWARE PRODUCT to you. In such event, you may not use or copy
the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, and you should promptly contact
Manufacturer for instructions on return of the unused product(s)
in accordance with Manufacturer's return policies."

It seems to me that this could be a stickler for anybody trying to get a refund. How have you been able to work around this?

It might have been an issue in years past when you had to personally install the operating system - but if someone else installs for you - they may be bound by the terms but you (the end user) aren't unless you elect to use the software. If you uninstall then you have opted out and therefore it is up to the manufacturer of the software (not the hardware) to make provisions for a reasonable return policy (which customarily involves giving a refund) In point of fact what MS has said is they don't want you as a customer if you don't agree to the terms of the agreement by installing... using etc. and hence, if you don't want the software and they don't want you as a customer you have essentially created a new contractual agreement which then incorporates (and causes to kick in) the return policies which would normally be like those of any other product - give us the product back and we will refund your money. The real issue revolves around getting the hardware people to recognize that their is still a demand for hardware configurations that do not include windoze because that would save everyone a whole lot of trouble. Have a happy all!

You missed the "return the software to the manufacturer for a refund" part. And if the bundled software is never used, for example, by booting the hardware with another OS (which could be your own licensed windows CD bought separately), then you have never used/accessed the software in any way.

Easy. Stick a Linux boot floppy/CD in the drive, and immediately install Linux... or DR-DOS, or *BSD, or OS/2, or Solaris/x86, or any other OS over top of the Windows installation. If you *NEVER* boot up the installed operating system, or open the sealed packages with the media, they you have not, "used or copied the SOFTWARE PRODUCT", and have a perfect right to contact the vendor for a refund.

You Microsoft hating losers never learn do you?
If you think the American public "secretly" want linux, and the public are "clamoring" for linux, but big bad Microsoft is using their "monopoly" power to prevent the public from getting in their desktops, why don't you go start your own desktop linux pc company and see where that gets you?

Remember VA Linux?
They ONLY sold linux desktops and severs.
What happened to them again?
So much for your secret clamoring for linux from consumers.

As far as you rabid linux fanatics are concerned, men from Mars are making the "clueless" American consumers buy Microsoft Windows, right? HEHEHEHEHEHE!

Listen , clown, even in China where most personal computers are shipped naked (with no operating system installed at all), astute Chinese pc buyers immediately go down the street to buy a pirated copy of ...you guessed it...WINDOWS!

And this is despite Microsoft's massive efforts to stop Windows from being pirated in China!

Even when Microsoft is trying to prevent consumers from installing Windows, consumers STILL vote for Windows, bypassing the crap, third rate "free" linux in the process!

Believe it or not, consumers whether in America or China or Europe or anywhere else are not stupid.
And the linux fanatics don't have a lock on all the wisdom in the world ( much as it may come as a shock to you)
Consumers are not, as the linux fundamentalists put it, "clueless".
Consumers know a great Operating system when they see one.
And they vote with their check books accordingly!

And how long has he/she been on the MicroSloth Payroll? If it is such a 'given' that MicroSloth has already won the battle on the strength of it's technical superiority (as opposed to premium legal beagles and marketing personnel) than why is this MicroSloth Drone expending so much time, effort and vitriol to convince anyone who might be persuaded that things are not just peachy in the land of MS-OZ that it ain't so and why is MicroSloth giving so much money and making so many concessions (re. 'copyright' source code) to persuade emerging nations that they should follow the 'enlightened' masses????? Oh, and have a nice day Mr./Ms. Vitriol

I've been dealing with computers and operating systems since before Microsoft ever existed, (and from the sounds of your rant, before YOUR existence). Windows is NOT a great OS. Windows did one great thing, and that was to help the world accept computers through a user-friendly interface. Where MS went terribly wrong was to encourage people who know little or nothing about stable and reliable computing to believe that they were capable of being systems administrators. The 50+ systems I administer have uptimes measured in years, not days, and have hundreds of users daily. Far too many of the Windows admins I have met over the years know how to "use", not how to administer. Their technical expertise only extends to the options they are given on a GUI screen. As far as my profession is concerned, this is a bad thing, because too many so-called admins "couldn't tell you which way is up" when it comes to administering a computer. You sound as though you are a cow, dutifully headed for the slaughterhouse, because that's what all the other cows are doing. Wake up and learn something for a change. I don't care if it Linux, Mac OS, VMS, TImex Sinclair, or Windows. When you have taken the time to learn the alternatives available, only then will you be capable of making an iformed decision regarding the superiority of one OS compared to another.

Anti-Microsoft troll :"I've been dealing with computers and operating systems since before Microsoft ever existed, (and from the sounds of your rant, before YOUR existence). Windows is NOT a great OS"

I have been working on IBM mainframes since 1980, and IBM AS400's since they first came out in 1989 ( and on system 38 before that), and Windows 2003 IS a great OS!

I'll back Win 2003 against any OS that you'd care to throw at it, including the IBm z series mainframes and i series as400.

The scalabilty of win 2003 is simply AWESOME!
as at today,an HP Superdrome, running Win 2003 is slugging it out with the fstest IBM mainframes for the top spot on the TPC scalability list!
And the default security settings out of the box as as tight as they come.

Anti-UNIX troll: Do a little research....Ever hear of Lawrence Livermore? It is probably the largest and most powerful supercomputer in the world. It does not run Windows, nor Linux; it is an IBM SP complex using AIX 4.3. Last I heard, they had 8192 processors. Now THAT is power and scalability.

At a recent user's group meeting for a major database, not a single attending company runs their database on Windows if their database is larger that 2 GB, despite the fact that the software is available....why? It is because the people who have attempted it have encountered OS reliability problems. Hmmm, not so awesome after all.

Windows security problems do not come from security settings. The problems lie in security holes in the applications and OS itself.

Have you ever used Linux? I'm running Redhat 9.0 and I can tell you that Linux is very powerful and very functional. I ran Microsoft OSs for years and for the amount you would pay MS for a system the equivalent of mine, Windows is not a good value. My OS and software are free and I have a powerful office suite (OpenOffice), incredible multimedia capability (dvds via Xine, mp3s via Xmms, internet radio stations via RealOne for linux, instant messaging, you name it. I don't find myself missing windows one bit. Most recently i ran Windows XP but i began testing linux a couple of years ago and I decided a year ago to go completely linux. I haven't looked back since. The only thing that really prevents linux from taking off are the unscrupulous monopolistic actions of MS to preserve their monopoly. They have basically tied the hands of hardware manufacturers and software writers with the threat of bankruptcy if they choose to work with linux at all. I could not tolerate being held hostage by MS anymore. A prime example is Microsoft Office. I paid over $500 for Office XP. Your contacts in Outlook are stored in a proprietary format (.pst file). Outlook will allow you to export this file that a more generic format (.csv or .tab) but the fields are jumbled in such a way that you end up having to retype a great deal of the data. (I know this from personal experience.) Once you enter MS's universe, they attempt to enslave you without your consent so that you can never leave. Think about that. You pay over $500 for a piece of software and they dont even trust you to make your own decision as to whether you want to continue using it or not. Linux is about having a choice and having some degree of freedom. Linux does not use proprietary file formats. Linux gives you access to the source code. If you look at the history of slavery, you will see that there have always been slaves that fall in love with their chains; I'm afraid, sir, that you appear to fall into this category.

linux propaganda officer :" I'm running Redhat 9.0 and I can tell you that Linux is very powerful and very functional."

Lets look at the facts that matter shall we?

FACT: Windows is far more secure than linux. A recent study found nearly 10 times as many breaches on linux computers as on Windows computers during the recent war against Iraq.
This was in spite of the fact that there are far far more Windows computers in existence than linux computers, and there are far more attcks on Windows computers than linux computers, seeing that most of the attacks on Windows machines are planned and propagated by the linux criminals!

FACT: Windows is far far more sclabale on servers than linux is. A recent study had Windows 2003 server up to 3 times as fast as linux, running on the same hardware.

FACT: Windows has far more real, vital bussines applications and home aplications than linux has.
You go and buy that linux machine, and none of your curent business applications are going to run on it.
You can then sit down and stare at the linux machine all day long, mutering to yourself in a crazed fashion:" linux is God, linux is God, linux is God. Oh great linux, we obey and worship thee", whereupon you wil be quietly carried off to the madhouse.

FACT: Windows is actually CHEAPER than linux to run.
A recent study by one of the top IT research firms comparing the total cost of ownership of linux to Windows over a 5 year period, found Windws to be considerably cheaper than lindows!!
Using linux is like going to marry the cheapest, easiest slut in the village.
Its gonna cost ya.
Sure its going to be easy to get her into bed the first time. But after you've married her, everyone else is still going to continue screwing her.
Plus you are going to get yourself VD.
By the time you are through with her you'd have lost a fortune, not to talk of your health and self-respect.
You'll wish you'd not been such a cheap guy.

Microsoft user losers never learn do you?...
Your sorry Microsoft dependant little kids that believe and trust daddy Gates. If not for Microsoft you would have to use a real compiler and learn to program. Linux hating losers never learn that it is not about them and their little world in Microsoft.collect that refund !

Wow!.
He sounds like someone who claims he hates homosexuals but hangs out in a gay bar.

If you hate linux so much why do you keep reading linux articles.

Separate from that, it is not only a matter of linux or not. For years i have been a windows only user(at home), and despite having no more that two computers at anyone time I owned sometimes as much as 10 Windows license. Each time I buy a computer even when i got rid of the old one i still need to purchase a new license. (Multiply that for business).

This is compounded further when my computer has a problem, i have to either reload the entire computer and lose all my configuration and work or, go out and buy another windows cd to run the fix.

The interesting thing is that buying a new computer can actually cost less than buying a new version of windows, if it was not for windows.

Lets put this into perspective, can you imagine buying a new car that comes with the engine, then something goes wrong with the engine and you are told that to repair the car you need to buy a new engine, because you are not allowed to change a fan belt, oh! and p.s. the engine cost more that the rest of the car.

I am not a linux fanatic, the first time i used linux was less than a year ago. In fact the first linux i loaded was Redhat Linux 7.2, just before it became 8.0.

When i saw 7.2 coming from windows XP i was not that impressed. The i dual boot LindowsOS, i say improvements in ease of use. When redhat 8.0 came out i bought a computer and loaded it on. I say incredible aethetic improvements in only a few months and thats when I decided WindowsXP will be my last windows. I know in the next several months desktop linux will impress even the more, doubtfull people.

This is not about windows or linux, it is about consumer choice. Should i be forced to buy something I do not want to get something totally different that I want.

Long ago I lived in a country where to buy basic food(that I could barely afford) I had to buy other things that i did not care for nor want. It was called marrying of items. It got especially bad in cases where the seller has a big controll or influence over that specific item.

This is not something I expected to find in this country (USA), by the way isn't it illegal?

Tell me what would you do if in order to get your favorite food you were told you had to buy something else you had no interest in. Then, when you go to a next store and the next and the next it was the samething.

The fact is Microsoft products has had more problems then any other software interms of security crashing etc... Yet they make more profit than even companies that make better product, as much as 85% on some products. This is in the middle of one of the worst economic downturn I have seen since living in this country.

You know what, I am happy that linux is taking market share and you should be too. The fact is that the worst case for you is that if linux is loaded on more computers, then microsoft will be forced as they are now to keep down the cost of windows and offer a better OS, look at the improvements to XP since linux became a threat. Look at the reduction in prices in countries where linux has 5% or more of the market. Tell me that this will not be good for you.

I am no more enthusiastic about the guy who says use linux because it is not microsoft than the one who says pay more because it is microsoft. The thing is i have work to do and a business to run, I want solutions not rhetoric. I want to pay a reasonable price that reflects the economic conditions and I want to have a reasonable expectation that what I am paying for will work and do what it was promised to do.

Your post :"If you hate linux so much why do you keep reading linux articles."

1. I don't hate linux. linux is just an operating system made of bits and bytes and code. You can't hate stuff like that.
It’s the rabid, abusive, nasty, vicious linux fundamentalist attack dogs that I take very strong exception to.

And 2. I don't "keep reading linux articles" as you put it.
Funny enough I did a google search on Microsoft and found myself here, because the linux community is so obsessed with Microsoft, you can't do any search on Microsoft without being flooded with pro-Linux, anti-Microsoft propaganda!

You also claim:"Each time I buy a computer even when i got rid of the old one i still need to purchase a new license"

Now that is obviously false.
Like I pointed out before in an earlier lost, there ARE lots of small PC makers that will sell you computers that pre-installed with linux, if that is what you want. And no you don't pay Microsoft ANYTHING either (its explicitly banned in the anti-trust settlement)

You also claim (again falsely) that: "The fact is Microsoft products has had more problems then any other software interms of security crashing etc... "

Now that is the biggest lie you told in your little piece of pro-linux exercise in fiction writing, and I'll prove it too.
According to security experts at mi2g, more than 75 percent of all server-based breaches occurred on Linux systems; Windows systems were responsible for just 15 percent of breaches.
Furthermore, the reports says that Windows-based systems were far more resilient than Linux-based systems during the Iraq war months from March to May 2003, a time of increased hacking activity.http://www.wininsider.com/news/comments.aspx?mid=5258
So much for your fictitious "linux is more secure than Windows" rant :)

All your attempts to prove "windows is better than linux" and crap like that is not relevant to the central issue, which is about any buyer who wants to return a product (for a refund) that he/she does not want to use and more so, because the EULA does talk about refund of returned, unused software. I suspect you have a problem with that since you are a typical thieving vendor who finds the consumer's right NOT to buy a product a threat to your interests. You are just hiding that behind some irrelevant "linux-vs-windows" crap-talk.

For all you know, the buyer may install the same fantastic MS windows from his/her own MS windows licensed CD. So he/she has no reason to pay for two copies of windows when he/she is installing just one copy on one pc. This could also be a problem for a business which has purchased licenses for windows separately.

And the specious argument that "there ARE lots of small PC makers that will sell you computers that pre-installed with linux, if that is what you want." is irrelevant too. Its like saying "So what if the IBM deskstar hard-drive I sold you is bad, you don't deserve your money back. Its your fault that you chose to buy an IBM drive when you could have bought from Maxtor, Samsung, WD etc." Its none of MS/HP's business whether a buyer can buy a PC with linux (or no OS) from another vendor. Its about what obligation MS/HP has towards those customers who are simply following what is written in the EULA.

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