Auslander, I guess you're right. WTF isn't really the traditional form of TKD. For some reason tho', I always feel like it's closer to a TMA than it is to boxing or MMA. Granted, it's pretty much just boxing but with kicks instead of punches, but I guess just my experiences make it... /feel/ that way to me. It may be wrong, but... 'eh. I think the point of the thread is still present, even if I didn't think through my semantics all the way.

You are responsible for your own training, your own attitude and your own dedication. No-one else. Traditional Martial Arts at times tries to take credit for this (and often advertises these as benefits for new member drives). In Full contact / aliveness training / MMA / whatever you want to call it, this is considered obvious and hardly ever brought up - the results speak for themselves.
TMA is great because it help you create a framework of what you want to try. You need to step out of that boundary to test your understanding - otherwise you are usually repeating / emulating / comparing against others, rather than doing this against yourself.
Whatever floats your boat - its all good. The only importnat thing is that you are honest with yourself in how you train and what you want to get out of your training.
(Can anyone recommend a succint writing course?)

I learned a lot of discipline from the method of training my first instructor had.

Define discipline. Is this something that you received unwillingly, or took upon yourself to do. Yep, read your history and understood what you think your challenges were. Were you forced to go to training, or did you go willingly? Like I said, define discipline - is is something that was meted out, or something you you gladly took on? Be honest with yourself - If its the first, you're a mindless idiot. If its the second, good for you, keep it up. This is a result of you (albeit influenced by others) If you're not sure, think about it some more and make it the second reason by your actions.
Think about this each and every time you train, until you don't need to think about it again. Then define discipline again. You might be surprised at what you think discipline is.
/dad mode off (sorry to sound like a pretentious twat, but look at my style field)

I have found that most things that keeps children hands from being idle, where you also forge bonds with other people your age, where you get adult supervision vs being left to your own devises serves well to keeping kids on the strait and narrow.
Be it Boy Scouts, Team Sports, Martial Arts, or the what not.
This form of substitute parenting is hardly unique to TMA. Even worse though is TMA tends to take this position of authority and instill a certain amount of magical thinking.

I think there's the wrong assumption being made here. I think a good MA instructor is just like a good coach.

Yes,giving you the tools to acheive and manage your progress there.

When you are growing up, you don't JUST rely on your parents to learn lessons. Can you not think back to some of the non-academic lessons you learned from teachers? Or from a really good boss at your first job?

Enviroment and peers often give you imput wich you choose to emulate or dismiss.

But,for better or worse core notions of morals,beleifs,social mores,ethics have already been imprinted into you by the people closest to you,thats what they are there for.When they mess up,everyone else is a poor substitute:

-School is where you pick-up an education,first and foremost.
-a Job is a means of survival and the honing of your life skills(making a living),first and foremost.
Anything else you get out of it is purely incidental.

To say that you can only and should only learn some of these things in your own home is awfully limiting. I teach my daughter respect, but once she is in school and such then that means she'll be spending many hours away from me. I sincerely hope that the other adults she spends time with help reinforce such things.

If your daughter doesnt get basic social interaction and behaviour from you,fat chance some overworked poor devil with 20+ other kids in her classroom is going to do it for you.

I hope that she has positive role models, and that I can find her a wonderful training hall when she's older where they can help teach courtesy, self-control, discipline... I see nothing at all wrong with that. I'm not passing the responsibility off, it's just that a child learns from the whole community and from all of society, not just their parents.

It´s +your+ job (and her mother) to begin instilling these virtues onto her.shady chance of her picking that up later on if she hasnt by then. Its her teachers job to educate her,her Instructor´s job to coach her... not raise her.

And yeah, growing up I needed something like MA to help guide me. Broken-home and never met my prisoner-for-life father. Without martial arts in my life when I was younger, I would probably be a much bigger piece of **** as an adult.

So nice way to be a fucking asshat, dude. Can we get back on topic instead of you rippin' into me for ****?

Not my intent to Ğrip into youğ.Im stating my thoughts on the matter.It´s come up before and they havent changed. Do not take it as some sort of Hannibal Lecture.

"You tell them a lie,and when you dont need it anymore you tell them another lie and tell them they´re progressing along the road to wisdom.Then instead of laughing they follow you even more,hoping at the heart of all the lies they´ll find the truth.And bit by by they accept the unnaceptable." Terry Pratchett

Okay, I'll bite. I have a tendency to overthink things, but here it is anyway.

The most important lesson I learnt in Judo is.......

Create the opportunities. If you wait for an opportunity, it's either too late to react, or nobody is going to just give you one. I realized that's how I've been living my whole life. Just waiting for that "opportunity". So, I've made changes and created opportunities, the course of my life is now changed.

It's funny talking to people at work sometimes. They're all the same. Just waiting for someone to "just give them a chance". They honestly believe that anyone who succeeds in life has been given everything. They bemoan that no one has given them the opportunity.

I've also learned to set realistic expectations. It's okay to reach and strive for the top. But, be realistic in your abilities and knowledge. Just because you're a hard worker doesn't mean you're the best.

Sometimes it's best to accept your limitations, and find your role in the grand scheme of things. Not all are leaders, not all are followers, not all are intelligent, not all are craftsmen, artists, etc. Work on your weaknesses, find your strengths and excel in them.

Judo is something that I expected to be able to use to escape life, yet I find myself more involved in life on the mat, even though I'm not thinking of anything but Judo at the time.

Re: Lessons learned from traditional MA

Too much respect, authority and hierarchy are necessary in anything that values tradition over function. It cultivates dogmatic thinking over evolution. It makes you open to believe in magic instead of grounding in reality.

Seriously, I've learned that posts I can't understand on this thread come from people who overthink and overrate their TMA school, probably because they haven't spent a lot of time in more than one martial art.