They have many similar flash diffusers which can be used on camera but bounce the light around the room so your main light seems to be off camera and supply a catchlight to the eye. You can even bounce the light off the wall behind you.

donaldejose said:
If you are using Nikons CLS system with your pop-up flash as the commander and off camera flashes as your main flash you may have the following problem:

The CLS system communicates with off camera flashes by sending out preflashes. Humans often don't realize more than one flash is occurring. But dogs eyelids are faster reacting than humans and they will blink at the preflash giving you half shut eyes when the real flash exposes your photo. I find this "quick eyelid response" also occurs with about 10% of people. In that case you have to use strobes or manual flash settings so there is no CLS pre-flash to close the subjects eyelids. So if you are planning on using the Nikon CLS system beware of this.

Donald, do you think using the FV Lock function would be of benefit in this situation? One of my daughters is a "blinker" and so I use this when shooting portraits of her. It's not 100% foolproof but I seem to get more keepers when I do use it than not with her. Dogs are a different animal (pun intended) so I'd like to get your input. Thanks.
* this is more of a photo-technical question but I think it falls in line with the conversation.

So right SkinBrit and seven crossing....I have been warned.;)....somehow I don't see this lady as the litigious type....but say a problem does arise,,I will be back on the forum,crying and admitting to the "I told you so's" That I can't follow advice....so therefore I should be damned ;>).....I'm betting on TTJ's 999 out of 1000 theory though......that sounds like a safe bet to me ;)

If you are using Nikons CLS system with your pop-up flash as the commander and off camera flashes as your main flash you may have the following problem:

The CLS system communicates with off camera flashes by sending out preflashes. Humans often don't realize more than one flash is occurring. But dogs eyelids are faster reacting than humans and they will blink at the preflash giving you half shut eyes when the real flash exposes your photo. I find this "quick eyelid response" also occurs with about 10% of people. In that case you have to use strobes or manual flash settings so there is no CLS pre-flash to close the subjects eyelids. So if you are planning on using the Nikon CLS system beware of this.

donaldejose said:
Don't be put off by all the scare stories and not go do the shoot. You will miss a valuable opportunity which you would enjoy.

I agree with donaldejose not to be intimidated by the legal stuff and take the gig. Just make sure to do a simple contract to protect you. There is a ton on-line with pre made contracts for photographers you can download. You just should be aware of it.

To be honest, I'm not a big believer of retaining "all rights" for this type of stuff but just retain the ability to use it & not sell it, especially the first time you shoot it. Now if you go back a few times, get some experience in shooting the dogs and start to get some really great images, then you might want to look at retaining rights if you think you can sell stock or art images.

msmoto said:
TTJ...maybe you could look at the rental fee for the equipment online, then charge for the "rental" plus your services....?

I have looked into doing that, but generally speaking most of the stuff I use for those types of jobs the customers don't find that really "kosher" especially where I live. For that price I don't use exotic anything and it is really just a "basic kit". Depending on the group, duration, expected results (i.e. heavy editing) I do charge more. Around here people are charging 3x that and for me getting going, the exposure and the much needed examples are worth it. A couple of groups have asked me to come back for 5 events more this year with that set-up so it seems to work for me at least.

Funny shot msmoto....are you sure that he didn't sneak a few brews out of the cooler before he got behind the wheel ;) The shoot will be done at kennels behind the breeders home. I will of course scout the location in advance to learn more about the lighting requirements,but especially to meet and greet the dogs to get some insiight into their individual personalities..I may not be a pro,but I always approach my photography with professional results in mind!

The idea of doing it for free is good. No obligations... Make certain, however, that from your point of view, you think like a pro. Go over the venue carefully. If you have a lighting set up, like strobes, you may wish to set these up somewhere and have the owners bring the dogs to you where the lighting is a constant.

I cannot remember the camera you have, but most of the dog shows are not that well lighted. In any case, getting a free Husky, well...this is how I treat a Husky.....they are allowed to drive the motorhome, except when they fall asleep....

Wow guys,you all are giving me lots to think about.I must admit to being either naive or too trusting,because the idea of litigation arising over photos of dogs never occurred to me.I told the lady from the start that I was not a professional and I did not sell my photography.She was the one who insisted that if I did it she wouldn't let me do it for free.

I'm retired and photography is a fun hobby for me....I have plenty of free time and the idea of photographing Huskies,a breed that I really love but have never shot, appeals to me.I have a few more weeks to think it over before she contacts me about the shoot.

As it stands now,I just might do it for free with the understanding that I retain the rights to all images.And I would make it clear that further sessions would require the donation of a puppy....at 600 bucks a pup, that wouldn't be a bad deal for me ;>)

SkintBrit said:
Here in the UK, we're working hard to be as litigious a nation as the US, but we're not there yet, for this reason I wouldn't contemplate doing any work professionally (even for people who are friends) without professional indemnity, and public liability insurance.

I would be wary of working for a stanger with out professional indemnity, and public liability insurance.

I battle with many friends on this type of stuff. Until I get my business licence approved (which then allows for insurance, etc.)

I have shot a conference for the State Bar association and while sitting with 1 state supreme court justice and 2 former DAs this is what I have done that limits back-lash and still serves the clients:

I do a flat fee where the client owns the images for the fee. I have been doing about $300 per 8hr day ($150/4hrs) which includes "basic" editing and generally 50-100 edited photos (I usually provide more extensive edits but I always "sandbag" my commitment.) Any terrible shots (out of focus, marker blanks, bad settings, and the like) I delete. I separate the images into Edited, Good, & Out-takes and turn that over to them on a DVD and accept payment then. Nice, simple, and zero commitment down the road.

A simple contract that lays the above out clearly, that the client will own the images and is responsible for final edits and printing if desired, or may seek additional services from me that are separate of this contract. With that type of set-up, you are only liable to hand over the images and are basically clear of 99% of any law suits that are heard of (in the US) by making them responsible for finishing or if they want additional major editing or want you to set-up printing of books, they know that comes at an additional fee and is not included. I add an optional "rider" that allows me to post and use any photo for educational, personal use, entry to contests or professional examples (No commercial/stock use) and allow them to decide if that is ok and if so, sign that piece as well.

Now I know some pros out there will cringe and shake their heads but when you are not set-up as a pro, with long term archiving, Tax collection, set sales site, Insurance, etc. I don't see the point in acting like one. One has to think about if they call you 2 years from now and you lost all the images to a bad hard-drive or if they are not pleased with your work and sue you. You need to protect yourself from any law suit or the potential to effect future sales since the opportunity for disaster to happen is too great. 999 out of 1000 "off the cuff" shoots never go bad but if one does, you can loose damn near everything if you aren't careful.

If you make it clear that you are not a pro, they own the images, you only guarantee basic editing and leave it to them to say it is ok or not for you to use them as examples, you will be good.

shutterdancer said:
Thanks for the input everyone.....lots of points to ponder.I think that I will just refuse compensation for the shoot.If at a later date she wants a repeat performance,I will ask for the pick of one of her Huskies litters ;)

My children will take a puppy if you don't want it shutterdancer! :-) Seriously, lots of good suggestions here, particularly msmoto's one about being aware of the massive difference between taking shots professionally (getting paid), and as an amateur. Here in the UK, we're working hard to be as litigious a nation as the US, but we're not there yet, for this reason I wouldn't contemplate doing any work professionally (even for people who are friends) without professional indemnity, and public liability insurance. Also a contract stating clearly what's expected by both parties. For that reason I most like SquamishPhoto's suggestion, of charging $50 per image chosen. That way the breeder is taking no risk, as she only pays if she likes what she sees, and you are free to develop your own style, without the concern of whether the client will like it. It will however be good practice for you to discover her needs and forfil them, in order to get paid, a skill that every successful pro tog has learnt. Good luck, and most of all have fun.

Gareth is right on this one. There is no reason to look at this as a commercial job, but I think that charging for a set is a mistake. I'd charge her whatever your actual job pays you per hour for the exact hours you work with her and then offer to email her small facebook-ish size JPEG's and have her select which ones she wants and charge her a per photo rate that you've agreed upon. Considering this is the first time you've ever been paid for work I'd offer them to her for $50 per photo per usage. I bet you she'll buy a ton if you do a great job and don't believe for a second that she's not willing to pay that much for them, shes a dog breeder - quality pups can sell for a damn fortune if the breeder knows what they're doing with their blood lines and temperament. My Border Collie was $500 as a pup, so if shes impressed with your work she'll spend at least a few hundred dollars or more with you.

Thanks for the input everyone.....lots of points to ponder.I think that I will just refuse compensation for the shoot.If at a later date she wants a repeat performance, I will ask for the pick of one of her Huskies litters ;)

you are obviously not a commercial photographer, and are obviously not in a position to offer a commercial photographers service. therefore you cannot / willnot charge a commercial photographer's fee.

I would look at this as a casual portrait shoot. As others have said, make sure you know how many dogs, and who is handling them. Also check out the location first if you can, and work out what sort of light you will have/need.

As for price there may be a calculator or some charging guidlines available from the professional photography orgnaisation for where you live.

You will need some sort or legally binding contract stating that you are not liable for any wrong doing if something goes wrong on the shoot. It will also need to cover you against inappropriate usage of the images once they are supplied.

If someone wants my services, wants to pay for the entire project, my fee is published and is very, very high. So, after I discuss what my fee would be, I also suggest a donation to a 501(3)c organization that I specify. In this case, it would be the local animal shelter. And it would be deductible to the donor. I then do the shoot, deliver the digital image and it is all without cost.

Most folks who are not knowledgeable in what commercial photography costs, "insist" on paying, only until they find out what it costs. I would never work and get paid for my work only a small portion of what I charge. I think it better to give it away free, or as I noted to request a donation if they do not want to accept the free service. Once you "sell" something, then there is an obligation on your part to maintain the service and be in a position to provide "reorders" and such. If given away, you deliver the digital image, and you are done.

Also, if there are local ordinances governing the selling of services or goods, one can be in deep trouble if you are in business without a license.

I might tell her $40/hr (1 1/2hr minimum unless you have to drive a long way) introductory price to see how that phases her. If she jumps at it, you know the next time to charge more. If she balks you can decide it is not worth your time OR get your hooks into her breeding group and make money off the other breeders when they book you at a discounted price.

Unless you want to do this for a living, why not make 500$ from 4 people instead of $500 from 1 then done ? Repeat business from the 4, with slight increases as you get better. The grocery store approach UNTIL you have established yourself as proficient at it, then can command the big bucks.

I'm not a pro so I price low until I have a feel for what I am doing, though NEVER less than my time is worth to me.

I'd treat it as a professional gig - and price accordingly. If you need to discount, incorporate a donation to a pet rescue in the area.

For some perspective, do a little research on the price of dogs from the breeder.

Dog photos command similar prices to portraits. $200-250 for a set of images would be in the ballpark and it goes up from there. You need to factor in any travel time, actual shooting time, post processing, and whatever form the images will be delivered. Also check on how many dogs need to be photographed.

If you can shoot puppies, be prepared to bring props. Shoot one at a time before getting into groups.

Dog and especially puppy photos usually requires an assistant. It could be the breeder. Find out who will handle the dogs during photos.

I use a 70-200 lens for outdoor pet photographs. Usually I shoot at f/3.2-3.5. I'm looking for an overcast day and no flash. I want great backgrounds and nice soft light. The result - 3-5 really good images per dog - always has happy clients.

I'd pounce on that shutterdancer. I went to the beach one day dressed in black after work to get a few pics of seagulls before heading home. A guy approached me asking if I shoot weddings. I saw visions of $$$ but came to my senses and said I'm just an armature photographer.

The above ideas are good to start with. It would be neat to make a little money doing what you love.