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Re: Where does it point out where always, often and usually mean in terms of alignmen

Originally Posted by Psycho

Ah. I didn't actually look in the book for those numbers. Just a rough approximation that says essentially the same thing.

Yeah. You're right. However, there's one specific passage I'm interested in. It says an always x creature may come from a plane that predetermines their alignment. Would this mean that if the creature were taken off of that plane before they were born (such as with a tarterian dragon) would that affect their alignment or does being native to a plane automatically make you the same alignment as that plane?

Re: Where does it point out where always, often and usually mean in terms of alignmen

Not nessicarily. After all, if fiends and the like had literally no ability to control their alignment, they'd default to neutral like animals, since they essentially lack moral capacity. They don't do evil for any reason, it's just what they do.

But since they AREN'T neutral, that means that free will is involved. Sure, they grow up in a culture that is utterly and unflinchingly evil, sure they have a genetic disposition towards it, but it would be possible for even a Pit Fiend to decide for whatever reason to be Chaotic Good. It's just almost unheard of, hence the "Always".

Last edited by Drakevarg; 2010-05-19 at 08:57 PM.

MUNDUM MENTISince I don't want to bring it up every thread I'm in, my games only allow material from books I have physical copies of. I do not use the SRD.

Re: Where does it point out where always, often and usually mean in terms of alignmen

Ah okay. Hmm. The only problem with my plan is trying to find a Pyroclastic dragon egg, hatching it, and passing the checks I'll need to. Oh yeah, and not attracting the wrath of mama and papa (I have very good reason for wanting a Pyroclastic dragon.)

Re: Where does it point out where always, often and usually mean in terms of alignmen

Originally Posted by Psycho

Not nessicarily. After all, if fiends and the like had literally no ability to control their alignment, they'd default to neutral like animals, since they essentially lack moral capacity. They don't do evil for any reason, it's just what they do.

But since they AREN'T neutral, that means that free will is involved. Sure, they grow up in a culture that is utterly and unflinchingly evil, sure they have a genetic disposition towards it, but it would be possible for even a Pit Fiend to decide for whatever reason to be Chaotic Good. It's just almost unheard of, hence the "Always".

Free will isn't part of D&D alignments, which is why some mindless things like skeletons are evil.

Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.

Re: Where does it point out where always, often and usually mean in terms of alignmen

Originally Posted by Kyuubi

Yeah. You're right. However, there's one specific passage I'm interested in. It says an always x creature may come from a plane that predetermines their alignment. Would this mean that if the creature were taken off of that plane before they were born (such as with a tarterian dragon) would that affect their alignment or does being native to a plane automatically make you the same alignment as that plane?

Please consult the table below:

{TABLE]d4|result
1|nature
2|nurture
3|both
4|roll again twice[/TABLE]

[Edit]: Realized the horror that is d3 and updated to d4, which is a funny die indeed.

Last edited by Greenish; 2010-05-19 at 09:09 PM.

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Originally Posted by Claudius Maximus

Also fixed the money issue by sacrificing a goat.

Originally Posted by subject42

This board needs a "you're technically right but I still want to crawl into the fetal position and cry" emoticon.

Originally Posted by Yukitsu

I define [optimization] as "the process by which one attains a build meeting all mechanical and characterization goals set out by the creator prior to its creation."

Re: Where does it point out where always, often and usually mean in terms of alignmen

Originally Posted by Yukitsu

Free will isn't part of D&D alignments, which is why some mindless things like skeletons are evil.

"Moral capacity" is the exact wording used in the PHB to explain why all animals are True Neutral. Skeletons are evil because they literally RUN ON EVIL. They don't have moral values, its they just happen to be powered by the tears of orphans.

Besides, the only one you need to convince is the DM.

Last edited by Drakevarg; 2010-05-19 at 09:08 PM.

MUNDUM MENTISince I don't want to bring it up every thread I'm in, my games only allow material from books I have physical copies of. I do not use the SRD.

Re: Where does it point out where always, often and usually mean in terms of alignmen

Originally Posted by Psycho

"Moral capacity" is the exact wording used in the PHB to explain why all animals are True Neutral. Skeletons are evil because they literally RUN ON EVIL. They don't have moral values, its they just happen to be powered by the tears of orphans.

Besides, the only one you need to convince is the DM.

Eh. Most I've talked to agree that negative energy isn't actually evil. Besides, a lich who is still powered by negative energy can be good aligned, and even be a paladin since it can have a good moral capacity. They aren't evil subtyped or anything like that implying they're powered by evil.

Animals aren't not evil because they don't have a moral capacity, but because they don't act in a good or evil way. They basically just are. They kill things too, but unlike a skeleton which kills to kill, they kill to survive.

Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.

Re: Where does it point out where always, often and usually mean in terms of alignmen

Originally Posted by Yukitsu

Eh. Most I've talked to agree that negative energy isn't actually evil. Besides, a lich who is still powered by negative energy can be good aligned, and even be a paladin since it can have a good moral capacity. They aren't evil subtyped or anything like that implying they're powered by evil.

Animals aren't not evil because they don't have a moral capacity, but because they don't act in a good or evil way. They basically just are. They kill things too, but unlike a skeleton which kills to kill, they kill to survive.

'scept, y'know, animals DO murder. And fiends "basically just are", too, if they are literally incapable of being good-aligned. They don't act in a good or evil way, they just torture and kill and rape and conquer because that's just how they're made.

Now, if a fiend CAN be good-aligned, then it's more of a bias from their genetics/upbringing.

Last edited by Drakevarg; 2010-05-19 at 09:23 PM.

MUNDUM MENTISince I don't want to bring it up every thread I'm in, my games only allow material from books I have physical copies of. I do not use the SRD.

Re: Where does it point out where always, often and usually mean in terms of alignmen

Originally Posted by Kyuubi

The only problem with the D3 is it doesn't exist.

Linguist and Invoker of Orcus of the Rudisplorker's Guild

Originally Posted by The Giant

Fantasy literature is ONLY worthwhile for what it can tell us about the real world; everything else is petty escapism.

Originally Posted by The Giant

No author should have to take the time to say, "This little girl ISN'T evil, folks!" in order for the reader to understand that. It should be assumed that no first graders are irredeemably Evil unless the text tells you they are.

Re: Where does it point out where always, often and usually mean in terms of alignmen

Originally Posted by Psycho

'scept, y'know, animals DO murder. And fiends "basically just are", too, if they are literally incapable of being good-aligned. They don't act in a good or evil way, they just torture and kill and rape and conquer because that's just how they're made.

Killing something for necessity of survival isn't usually called murder. It's why paladins don't have to be vegetarians.

Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.

Re: Where does it point out where always, often and usually mean in terms of alignmen

Originally Posted by Psycho

I didn't say "for necessity of survival". I said murder. Animals do murder. Monkeys, dolphins, etc, are known to murder their own kind without any legitmate cause.

Those are an acception, not a norm, nor is "neutral" an always alignment for animals. Or at least, not properly always. Those would be one of those rare evil ones. Kind of like how there are a few good ones that save little Timmy when he falls in a well.

Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.

Re: Where does it point out where always, often and usually mean in terms of alignmen

Originally Posted by Yukitsu

Those are an acception, not a norm, nor is "neutral" an always alignment for animals. Or at least, not properly always. Those would be one of those rare evil ones. Kind of like how there are a few good ones that save little Timmy when he falls in a well.

Murder isn't the norm for humans, either.

And in regards to DnD alignment, no. The PHB specifically states that animals are incapable of being anything but True Neutral. Not "in almost all cases". Always.

Last edited by Drakevarg; 2010-05-19 at 11:17 PM.

MUNDUM MENTISince I don't want to bring it up every thread I'm in, my games only allow material from books I have physical copies of. I do not use the SRD.

Re: Where does it point out where always, often and usually mean in terms of alignmen

Where does it say that? All I can find is "always neutral" besides each of them, which doesn't mean always.

People also tend, on the whole to engage in more senseless violence and such than even an "evil" animal, hence the wider variation even though we're considered usually TN.

Last edited by Yukitsu; 2010-05-19 at 11:19 PM.

Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.