When they call for giving 30+ million illegals citizenship, they are supporting amnesty, no matter what cute name they call it by.

Once again that idiotic strawman gets run up the flagpole: immigration either stays the way it is or it becomes a path to citizenship for illegals, with nothing in between.

Here's a clue: if the republicans/conservatives refuse to even consider immigration reform because some people have opined that reform should include a path to citizenship for illegals, then that is precisely what they will get: an expressway to citizenship for illegals. Why? Because immigration reform is coming, one way or the other, and if republicans/conservatives do not participate, then it will be run single-handedly by liberals. The only way for republicans/conservatives to avoid so-called "amnesty" is for them to lead the reform, not gamely follow after liberals/democrats.

Once again that idiotic strawman gets run up the flagpole: immigration either stays the way it is or it becomes a path to citizenship for illegals, with nothing in between.

Here's a clue: if the republicans/conservatives refuse to even consider immigration reform because some people have opined that reform should include a path to citizenship for illegals, then that is precisely what they will get: an expressway to citizenship for illegals. Why? Because immigration reform is coming, one way or the other, and if republicans/conservatives do not participate, then it will be run single-handedly by liberals. The only way for republicans/conservatives to avoid so-called "amnesty" is for them to lead the reform, not gamely follow after liberals/democrats.

That's abject bullshit. All of the illegals are going to vote Democrat no matter who gives them amnesty. They want socialism and free stuff which is what the Democrats are the party of and always will be. They are not going to vote Republican even if every single Republican votes to given them instant citizenship.

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"...And these atomic bombs which science burst upon the world that night were strange, even to the men who used them." H. G. Wells, The World Set Free, 1914

"The one pervading evil of democracy is the tyranny of the majority, or rather of that party, not always the majority, that succeeds, by force or fraud, in carrying elections." -Lord Acton

Oceander wrote:[[ immigration reform is coming, one way or the other, and if republicans/conservatives do not participate, then it will be run single-handedly by liberals. The only way for republicans/conservatives to avoid so-called "amnesty" is for them to lead the reform...]]

Are you joking?Can you not see what has been happening for the past several months?

Tell me this, Oceander -- do you really, REALLY believe that the democrats have any intention of enforcing the laws regarding immigration, be they reformed, or not?

Why would they be inclined to enforce reformed laws, when they are in the process of achieving what they have dreamed for years: overwhelming the Republicans and the white/Euro Americans with a numerical superiority of nonwhites that will be impossible to win elections against?

What we are witnessing now is the left's PLAN for "immigration".They have no intention of creating or enforcing a secure southern border ever again.They are trying their best to ERASE that border, but more than that, they are trying to erase the concept of what and why the border exists.

As Nancy Pelosi said (speaking of everyone SOUTH OF the border), "we are ALL 'Americans'"....

Could she have expressed the sentiments and the intent of the democrats any more succinctly ??

Republicans "leading" reform is like Charlie Brown charging at Lucy's football.He keeps believing that THIS TIME, he's gonna win.But we know what the story is going to be.

That's abject bullshit. All of the illegals are going to vote Democrat no matter who gives them amnesty. They want socialism and free stuff which is what the Democrats are the party of and always will be. They are not going to vote Republican even if every single Republican votes to given them instant citizenship.

Then you've already conceded defeat, on several levels. First, you're engaging in the same sort of tribal collectivism progressives/liberals use to justify their fascism.

Second, you're denying to others the same respect for the individual's free will that conservatives demand for themselves - you're assuming that "they" (illegals, non-anglo immigrants from Mexico, etc) are missing some essential human quality and cannot be persuaded by logic and common sense, the way that us "real humans" can be persuaded.

Third, you're conceding that republican/conservative ideas and policies are so bereft of value that there is no way to persuade someone to accept them - you're either born with them or you're not, and if you're not you'll never agree with them.

Fourth, you're operating under the mistaken impression that the republicans/conservatives can become a majority party again solely on the traditional white SoCon voting base. That's not going to happen.

Which leads to a question: why continue wasting your energy fighting against what you've already conceded is the inevitable?

Oceander wrote:[[ immigration reform is coming, one way or the other, and if republicans/conservatives do not participate, then it will be run single-handedly by liberals. The only way for republicans/conservatives to avoid so-called "amnesty" is for them to lead the reform...]]

Are you joking?Can you not see what has been happening for the past several months?

Tell me this, Oceander -- do you really, REALLY believe that the democrats have any intention of enforcing the laws regarding immigration, be they reformed, or not?

Why would they be inclined to enforce reformed laws, when they are in the process of achieving what they have dreamed for years: overwhelming the Republicans and the white/Euro Americans with a numerical superiority of nonwhites that will be impossible to win elections against?

What we are witnessing now is the left's PLAN for "immigration".They have no intention of creating or enforcing a secure southern border ever again.They are trying their best to ERASE that border, but more than that, they are trying to erase the concept of what and why the border exists.

As Nancy Pelosi said (speaking of everyone SOUTH OF the border), "we are ALL 'Americans'"....

Could she have expressed the sentiments and the intent of the democrats any more succinctly ??

Republicans "leading" reform is like Charlie Brown charging at Lucy's football.He keeps believing that THIS TIME, he's gonna win.But we know what the story is going to be.

Charlie Brown will never learn.Will the Pubbies ???

Nope. I'm not joking in the least. And as I said in reply to Atomic Cow, it's rather depressing to see so many who've already conceded defeat. Why continue to fight against what you've already conceded is inevitable?

Nope. I'm not joking in the least. And as I said in reply to Atomic Cow, it's rather depressing to see so many who've already conceded defeat. Why continue to fight against what you've already conceded is inevitable?

I talked recently with a young fellow that manages a local fast food franchise. He is Hispanic and the restaurant is El Pollo Loco, one of my favorites.

So he initiated the discussion. He indicates their IS ground to be gained with Hispanics for conservatism. He stated he favors Republicans. I believe him.

Anybody betting the future on holding back the inevitable tide of demographics is delusional. The challenge is to form a conservative message which attracts wider support, not nativist fear.

Should we argue for a more secure border? Yes.

Should we hold out for mass deportations? Not unless we want the opposition to raise the spectre of the Holocaust, etc.

Immigration reform needs to be pragmatic. Insisting on impossible outcomes is not practical, nor would it be a winning strategy, unless the goal is attracting only an ever contracting slice of Americans.

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"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.ï¿½ Abe Lincoln