I guess think of it this way Westhoff kicked 5 goals, with May there lets say he kicks 2 goals instead. Thats a difference of three. Do you think Hogan would have kicked 3? its possible but I'd say May would have had an easier job restricting Westhoff then Hogan would have in kicking three goals. Its easier to restrict then it is to create.

I will say gun key forwards are rarer then gun key defenders which is why they are more important to acquire but once the game starts I would say they are about even in terms of what they deliver on the field.

I always found it amusing how the lines "And Wittengstein was a beery swine and was just as sloshed as Schlagel" got squished into the lyrics - if you say it very quickly with the repeating consonances it sounds like the orator is drunk. I reckon Wittgenstein himself would have been very proud to have had his name used in this way; as he might have said it is this that is really the ONLY reasonable use for the intellectualism taught at universities these days....

Norm Smith Medallist

I don't have a f*cking victim mentality. And I'm not paranoid. They really are coming to get us.

I was responding to your post saying you don't remember him turning up to Melbourne training cooked, and I am giving very clear incidents where the treatment by the media is inconsistent between clubs, but consistently negative towards us. You don't remember them because the media, which has significant representation by former Melbourne and WC players and established links to the high end of town, is selective about what is available to the likes of you and I. We don't get to remember what we didn't get to see.

If the media chose to spin it that way they could be driving a wedge into the failure of WC to secure a trade for Kelly, or their massive contract to a no-show Natanui, or the debacle about how the Gagf act has played out. They could spin that WC losing top assistant coaches such as Longmuir an in-contract Mitchell indicate a rift in the club and a lack of faith in the coach. Melbourne, which introduced tanking as a rebuild strategy, has failed in the development and retention of Hogan and Watts, two of the best talents to ever be dubbed "sure things" in terms of their destiny to lead a club out of the mire and into the light. Imagine the scrutiny if we were to lose Fyfe and Walters in a fire sale? Posters on here give the club flack for losing Strnadica and Collins. What chance someone will be wishing we'd hung onto Sheridan?

Large sections of the media want Lyon gone, and sacrificing someone like Hogan is part of the price they are happy to pay. People seem to be suddenly giving some form of credibility to the likes of Hardy and Hagdorn. Their mindset may have formed in the murky depths, but their agenda is fairly transparent.

Snuff was saying I dont remember him turning up to a Melbourne training session cooked either

My point is that the media not reporting s**t that happened while he was at Melbourne such as the santa dance (which is nothing to do with us), and the media not reporting the s**t Ryan got himself into in the same way they report stuff about Fremantle IS the reason those incidents are not remembered. But if you think the media are even-handed in that regard, good luck to you.

Did you miss Bennell's latest indiscretion? Luckily for all of us the media was there when he caused an incident.

Norm Smith Medallist

Snuff was saying I dont remember him turning up to a Melbourne training session cooked either

My point is that the media not reporting s**t that happened while he was at Melbourne such as the santa dance (which is nothing to do with us), and the media not reporting the s**t Ryan got himself into in the same way they report stuff about Fremantle IS the reason those incidents are not remembered. But if you think the media are even-handed in that regard, good luck to you.

Did you miss Bennell's latest indiscretion? Luckily for all of us the media was there when he caused an incident.

Premiership Player

So back to Jesse. Anyone read the Patrick Smith article in the Australian today?
It's behind a paywall so I will cut and paste it for those unable to access.
He's an interesting cat, Smith. He's written some of the best and wort sports journalism ever. Tiy can judge where this fits in the spectrum.

Fremantle coach Ross Lyon was giving the media a stern lecture. Putting journalists in their place if you like. Making them feel guilty for asking a question. Very few coaches can manipulate a news conference as well as Lyon. He could turn a giraffe on its head.
At a midweek news conference Lyon was, unsurprisingly, asked questions about Jesse Hogan, the former Melbourne forward, recruited by Fremantle to give height and substance to a chronically underachieving Dockers offensive combination.
Hogan has been ruled out of the Dockers team indefinitely after the club said he suffered “clinical anxiety”. This was announced by the football manager, Peter Bell, after Hogan could not join last Sunday’s training because he was suffering the effects of a long drinking session. It was said Hogan was suffering a mental health issue, which appears the AFL’s new cover-all for poor player behaviour.
A player’s mental health is nobody’s business other than those who must ensure he will return to full health. And in normal circumstances the explanation for Hogan’s absence should never be doubted.
But the football environment has been contaminated. It has been soiled by season after season of club officials and players deliberately lying. The public is told a player will debut when he is five weeks away. One former coach’s standard reply to any injury question was “he’s two to three weeks away” even though the family buried the player two days before.
Club presidents made famous the stock reply to the future of underperforming coaches: “He has the full support and confidence of the committee” just as board members were finetuning details of his eulogy.
Players aren’t bad either. As a teammate clings to life in the hyperbaric chamber a player might be asked about his chances of making the side for the next round and he replies: “Oh, yeah. He was as good as anyone on the track this week.” A journalist interjects that that must be unlikely given he was in a hyperbaric chamber. “No problems. It’s got special wheels with tyres left over from the Grand Prix. It goes like the clackers. And an unbelievable tank.”
The AFL also adds to this environment where Doubting Thomas plays fullback. For more than a decade its illicit drug policy allowed players who twice tested positive to play. Their names only became public if they failed a further test. It meant, according to former league chief executive Andrew Demetriou, that any player suspended but not publicly exposed, was placed on the injury list with some invented issue. When revealed by this newspaper, the deceit only further tore away at community confidence in the league’s integrity.
Especially when former St Kilda captain Nick Riewoldt clearly saw the folly of the policy. “Here’s where the system is a bit ridiculous,” he said this week. “If a player goes out after a game, he’s got a corkie and he goes out and has six beers, on Monday he’ll be in front of the leadership group … and he might even miss a game of footy. But if you want to go out on the weekend and take drugs, no worries, go your hardest, because the worst you’re going to cop is a strike that no one knows about.”
And please don’t fall for the AFL and its players’ association line that it is a voluntary code. That the players agreed to be subject to the policy because they so treasured the sanctity of the game. They agreed to the illicit drug policy as the AFL tried desperately to squirm out of its moral obligation to become WADA-compliant as the federal government demanded.
Under the WADA code, as written in 2005, a player who tested positive to even marijuana, faced a lengthy ban. And the AFL had in-house results that showed marijuana use by players was commonplace. Under WADA’s rules the AFL might lose a team a week. So the suggestion that the AFL agreed voluntarily to submit to an illicit drug policy is disingenuous; a glorification of a cynical decision. The players’ association was more than happy to co-operate with the AFL’s attempt to set up alternative codes to WADA.
So it is always a suspicious media that greets any sort of news in the AFL world where lying is the second language of football.
Thus Lyon was interrogated over his much touted but absent recruit in Hogan. Not wanting to engage in anything more than the basic information, he worked hard to make the media feel insensitive and callous. It did not work. The media would continue to probe.
Lyon responded once more. “We need to respect this is a mental health issue, this is a wellbeing issue and you probably need to back off a little bit,” Lyon said.
“I can only be guided by our club doctors in this space. If you’re more inclined to overrule our doctors and think you’re more skilled in that area, I’m happy to hear that but I’m telling you I’m not skilled in dealing with that.”
Lyon would not comment on Hogan’s behaviour nor if he would have played against the Kangaroos tomorrow had he not been intoxicated last Sunday.
“I’m not denying anything but I’m not prepared to go into what the outcome of him not being well looks like in detail because it’s not appropriate,” Lyon said. “This has been an ongoing issue with Jesse in regards to working and feeling well and handling his wellbeing issue. We’re dealing with what we’re dealing with and the facts are the facts.”
The Fremantle position wobbled a little later that day when the term “clinical anxiety” was questioned by several doctors. The West Australian reported the medical profession said “clinical anxiety” was an invented term.The West Australian also reported Fremantle had deleted the reference to “clinical” from its website. Fox Footy also said the paper reported medical experts had warned that club “spin” managers were hardly qualified to decide “on the terminology for psychological disorders”.
As well, the AFL keeps too much secreted away and opaque decisions are further protected by loyal, possibly scared stiff, AFL staff and a building full of bladders the size of Uluru.
Chief executive Gillon McLachlan, desperate to clean up the mucking style of football now cherished by coaches, sought the help of Steve Hocking, a former Geelong player, seemingly with a holy man’s faith in his own beliefs about the game and interpretations. He devised radical rule changes to open up the game.
The AFL’s football boss tried pre-season to keep practice matches played under the new rules secret but they were uncovered. The football community felt betrayed. The rules of a game, which was born in the 1850s, are the property of the supporters.
Lyon said at his news conference that he had spoken earlier to Riewoldt, his captain when Lyon coached St Kilda. Riewoldt said he was stunned at the cynicism that greeted the Fremantle announcement about Hogan’s unavailability. He shouldn’t have been.
No doubt Hogan has a medical issue and Lyon was seeking to protect his player. It is just that sometimes the giraffe is not for turning.

I think we get a reasonable go over East. The only time we don't is when they run with something that a WA 'journo' said and pile on assuming it is credible intel. I agree, if we aren't winning we deserve criticism. And clubs that are winning deserve credit over us when we aren't.

I think a lot of Freo supporters are sensitive about the media though because of how the local WA media treats us. It's just so blatantly one eyed. You just have to look at the incidents over the last week. Hardie being called out by Ballas and his reaction is not one from a level headed professional - he's a offended Freo hater. Similarly with most of his mates at 6PR - Crumpet seems to have it as his personal mission to destroy Freo - if only everyone wasn't laughing at him? Basil comparing Jesse to Ben Cousins another example. Just completely unprofessional and just wouldn't happen if the shoe were on the other foot, irrespective of the on-field performance.

Norm Smith Medallist

I think we get a reasonable go over East. The only time we don't is when they run with something that a WA 'journo' said and pile on assuming it is credible intel. I agree, if we aren't winning we deserve criticism. And clubs that are winning deserve credit over us when we aren't.

I think a lot of Freo supporters are sensitive about the media though because of how the local WA media treats us. It's just so blatantly one eyed. You just have to look at the incidents over the last week. Hardie being called out by Ballas and his reaction is not one from a level headed professional - he's a offended Freo hater. Similarly with most of his mates at 6PR - Crumpet seems to have it as his personal mission to destroy Freo - if only everyone wasn't laughing at him? Basil comparing Jesse to Ben Cousins another example. Just completely unprofessional and just wouldn't happen if the shoe were on the other foot, irrespective of the on-field performance.

I disagree. Whately always slams us. Sam McClure does as well. It fits the narrative that the WA media is the cause of our woes. I fear our team believes this as well. We need to be so good that they can't sledge us.

That is in our control. Who gives a crap if they say bad stuff about us if we are just all across what we need to be.

Again with the Eagles. They won the flag in one of the best grand finals for a while with a kick close to the siren with their first choice star ruckman and an All australian midfielder out. Forget anything else and just from that they are going to get the benefit of the doubt.

Club Legend

So back to Jesse. Anyone read the Patrick Smith article in the Australian today?
It's behind a paywall so I will cut and paste it for those unable to access.
He's an interesting cat, Smith. He's written some of the best and wort sports journalism ever. Tiy can judge where this fits in the spectrum.

Fremantle coach Ross Lyon was giving the media a stern lecture. Putting journalists in their place if you like. Making them feel guilty for asking a question. Very few coaches can manipulate a news conference as well as Lyon. He could turn a giraffe on its head.
At a midweek news conference Lyon was, unsurprisingly, asked questions about Jesse Hogan, the former Melbourne forward, recruited by Fremantle to give height and substance to a chronically underachieving Dockers offensive combination.
Hogan has been ruled out of the Dockers team indefinitely after the club said he suffered “clinical anxiety”. This was announced by the football manager, Peter Bell, after Hogan could not join last Sunday’s training because he was suffering the effects of a long drinking session. It was said Hogan was suffering a mental health issue, which appears the AFL’s new cover-all for poor player behaviour.
A player’s mental health is nobody’s business other than those who must ensure he will return to full health. And in normal circumstances the explanation for Hogan’s absence should never be doubted.
But the football environment has been contaminated. It has been soiled by season after season of club officials and players deliberately lying. The public is told a player will debut when he is five weeks away. One former coach’s standard reply to any injury question was “he’s two to three weeks away” even though the family buried the player two days before.
Club presidents made famous the stock reply to the future of underperforming coaches: “He has the full support and confidence of the committee” just as board members were finetuning details of his eulogy.
Players aren’t bad either. As a teammate clings to life in the hyperbaric chamber a player might be asked about his chances of making the side for the next round and he replies: “Oh, yeah. He was as good as anyone on the track this week.” A journalist interjects that that must be unlikely given he was in a hyperbaric chamber. “No problems. It’s got special wheels with tyres left over from the Grand Prix. It goes like the clackers. And an unbelievable tank.”
The AFL also adds to this environment where Doubting Thomas plays fullback. For more than a decade its illicit drug policy allowed players who twice tested positive to play. Their names only became public if they failed a further test. It meant, according to former league chief executive Andrew Demetriou, that any player suspended but not publicly exposed, was placed on the injury list with some invented issue. When revealed by this newspaper, the deceit only further tore away at community confidence in the league’s integrity.
Especially when former St Kilda captain Nick Riewoldt clearly saw the folly of the policy. “Here’s where the system is a bit ridiculous,” he said this week. “If a player goes out after a game, he’s got a corkie and he goes out and has six beers, on Monday he’ll be in front of the leadership group … and he might even miss a game of footy. But if you want to go out on the weekend and take drugs, no worries, go your hardest, because the worst you’re going to cop is a strike that no one knows about.”
And please don’t fall for the AFL and its players’ association line that it is a voluntary code. That the players agreed to be subject to the policy because they so treasured the sanctity of the game. They agreed to the illicit drug policy as the AFL tried desperately to squirm out of its moral obligation to become WADA-compliant as the federal government demanded.
Under the WADA code, as written in 2005, a player who tested positive to even marijuana, faced a lengthy ban. And the AFL had in-house results that showed marijuana use by players was commonplace. Under WADA’s rules the AFL might lose a team a week. So the suggestion that the AFL agreed voluntarily to submit to an illicit drug policy is disingenuous; a glorification of a cynical decision. The players’ association was more than happy to co-operate with the AFL’s attempt to set up alternative codes to WADA.
So it is always a suspicious media that greets any sort of news in the AFL world where lying is the second language of football.
Thus Lyon was interrogated over his much touted but absent recruit in Hogan. Not wanting to engage in anything more than the basic information, he worked hard to make the media feel insensitive and callous. It did not work. The media would continue to probe.
Lyon responded once more. “We need to respect this is a mental health issue, this is a wellbeing issue and you probably need to back off a little bit,” Lyon said.
“I can only be guided by our club doctors in this space. If you’re more inclined to overrule our doctors and think you’re more skilled in that area, I’m happy to hear that but I’m telling you I’m not skilled in dealing with that.”
Lyon would not comment on Hogan’s behaviour nor if he would have played against the Kangaroos tomorrow had he not been intoxicated last Sunday.
“I’m not denying anything but I’m not prepared to go into what the outcome of him not being well looks like in detail because it’s not appropriate,” Lyon said. “This has been an ongoing issue with Jesse in regards to working and feeling well and handling his wellbeing issue. We’re dealing with what we’re dealing with and the facts are the facts.”
The Fremantle position wobbled a little later that day when the term “clinical anxiety” was questioned by several doctors. The West Australian reported the medical profession said “clinical anxiety” was an invented term.The West Australian also reported Fremantle had deleted the reference to “clinical” from its website. Fox Footy also said the paper reported medical experts had warned that club “spin” managers were hardly qualified to decide “on the terminology for psychological disorders”.
As well, the AFL keeps too much secreted away and opaque decisions are further protected by loyal, possibly scared stiff, AFL staff and a building full of bladders the size of Uluru.
Chief executive Gillon McLachlan, desperate to clean up the mucking style of football now cherished by coaches, sought the help of Steve Hocking, a former Geelong player, seemingly with a holy man’s faith in his own beliefs about the game and interpretations. He devised radical rule changes to open up the game.
The AFL’s football boss tried pre-season to keep practice matches played under the new rules secret but they were uncovered. The football community felt betrayed. The rules of a game, which was born in the 1850s, are the property of the supporters.
Lyon said at his news conference that he had spoken earlier to Riewoldt, his captain when Lyon coached St Kilda. Riewoldt said he was stunned at the cynicism that greeted the Fremantle announcement about Hogan’s unavailability. He shouldn’t have been.
No doubt Hogan has a medical issue and Lyon was seeking to protect his player. It is just that sometimes the giraffe is not for turning.

So people actually pay to read this? I love how the media will make out that they’re flying the flag for truth and honesty - and that makes it ok to fabricate s**t to suit their narrative. More than happy to drag clubs, coaches and players names through the mud because they know there is no recourse.

Freo have stated Jesse made bad decisions involving alcohol AND has anxiety. Media read that as Hogan has drug issues - lets get him and the coach and club and AFL for harbouring a drug user!!! F**k me. Even if drugs are part of the equation (probably are), if anybody is a candidate for a mental health disorder, it’s Jesse. But nah, it’s only about the drugs. Honestly don’t know how the media pricks sleep at night.

Club Legend

So back to Jesse. Anyone read the Patrick Smith article in the Australian today?
It's behind a paywall so I will cut and paste it for those unable to access.
He's an interesting cat, Smith. He's written some of the best and wort sports journalism ever. Tiy can judge where this fits in the spectrum.

Fremantle coach Ross Lyon was giving the media a stern lecture. Putting journalists in their place if you like. Making them feel guilty for asking a question. Very few coaches can manipulate a news conference as well as Lyon. He could turn a giraffe on its head.
At a midweek news conference Lyon was, unsurprisingly, asked questions about Jesse Hogan, the former Melbourne forward, recruited by Fremantle to give height and substance to a chronically underachieving Dockers offensive combination.
Hogan has been ruled out of the Dockers team indefinitely after the club said he suffered “clinical anxiety”. This was announced by the football manager, Peter Bell, after Hogan could not join last Sunday’s training because he was suffering the effects of a long drinking session. It was said Hogan was suffering a mental health issue, which appears the AFL’s new cover-all for poor player behaviour.
A player’s mental health is nobody’s business other than those who must ensure he will return to full health. And in normal circumstances the explanation for Hogan’s absence should never be doubted.
But the football environment has been contaminated. It has been soiled by season after season of club officials and players deliberately lying. The public is told a player will debut when he is five weeks away. One former coach’s standard reply to any injury question was “he’s two to three weeks away” even though the family buried the player two days before.
Club presidents made famous the stock reply to the future of underperforming coaches: “He has the full support and confidence of the committee” just as board members were finetuning details of his eulogy.
Players aren’t bad either. As a teammate clings to life in the hyperbaric chamber a player might be asked about his chances of making the side for the next round and he replies: “Oh, yeah. He was as good as anyone on the track this week.” A journalist interjects that that must be unlikely given he was in a hyperbaric chamber. “No problems. It’s got special wheels with tyres left over from the Grand Prix. It goes like the clackers. And an unbelievable tank.”
The AFL also adds to this environment where Doubting Thomas plays fullback. For more than a decade its illicit drug policy allowed players who twice tested positive to play. Their names only became public if they failed a further test. It meant, according to former league chief executive Andrew Demetriou, that any player suspended but not publicly exposed, was placed on the injury list with some invented issue. When revealed by this newspaper, the deceit only further tore away at community confidence in the league’s integrity.
Especially when former St Kilda captain Nick Riewoldt clearly saw the folly of the policy. “Here’s where the system is a bit ridiculous,” he said this week. “If a player goes out after a game, he’s got a corkie and he goes out and has six beers, on Monday he’ll be in front of the leadership group … and he might even miss a game of footy. But if you want to go out on the weekend and take drugs, no worries, go your hardest, because the worst you’re going to cop is a strike that no one knows about.”
And please don’t fall for the AFL and its players’ association line that it is a voluntary code. That the players agreed to be subject to the policy because they so treasured the sanctity of the game. They agreed to the illicit drug policy as the AFL tried desperately to squirm out of its moral obligation to become WADA-compliant as the federal government demanded.
Under the WADA code, as written in 2005, a player who tested positive to even marijuana, faced a lengthy ban. And the AFL had in-house results that showed marijuana use by players was commonplace. Under WADA’s rules the AFL might lose a team a week. So the suggestion that the AFL agreed voluntarily to submit to an illicit drug policy is disingenuous; a glorification of a cynical decision. The players’ association was more than happy to co-operate with the AFL’s attempt to set up alternative codes to WADA.
So it is always a suspicious media that greets any sort of news in the AFL world where lying is the second language of football.
Thus Lyon was interrogated over his much touted but absent recruit in Hogan. Not wanting to engage in anything more than the basic information, he worked hard to make the media feel insensitive and callous. It did not work. The media would continue to probe.
Lyon responded once more. “We need to respect this is a mental health issue, this is a wellbeing issue and you probably need to back off a little bit,” Lyon said.
“I can only be guided by our club doctors in this space. If you’re more inclined to overrule our doctors and think you’re more skilled in that area, I’m happy to hear that but I’m telling you I’m not skilled in dealing with that.”
Lyon would not comment on Hogan’s behaviour nor if he would have played against the Kangaroos tomorrow had he not been intoxicated last Sunday.
“I’m not denying anything but I’m not prepared to go into what the outcome of him not being well looks like in detail because it’s not appropriate,” Lyon said. “This has been an ongoing issue with Jesse in regards to working and feeling well and handling his wellbeing issue. We’re dealing with what we’re dealing with and the facts are the facts.”
The Fremantle position wobbled a little later that day when the term “clinical anxiety” was questioned by several doctors. The West Australian reported the medical profession said “clinical anxiety” was an invented term.The West Australian also reported Fremantle had deleted the reference to “clinical” from its website. Fox Footy also said the paper reported medical experts had warned that club “spin” managers were hardly qualified to decide “on the terminology for psychological disorders”.
As well, the AFL keeps too much secreted away and opaque decisions are further protected by loyal, possibly scared stiff, AFL staff and a building full of bladders the size of Uluru.
Chief executive Gillon McLachlan, desperate to clean up the mucking style of football now cherished by coaches, sought the help of Steve Hocking, a former Geelong player, seemingly with a holy man’s faith in his own beliefs about the game and interpretations. He devised radical rule changes to open up the game.
The AFL’s football boss tried pre-season to keep practice matches played under the new rules secret but they were uncovered. The football community felt betrayed. The rules of a game, which was born in the 1850s, are the property of the supporters.
Lyon said at his news conference that he had spoken earlier to Riewoldt, his captain when Lyon coached St Kilda. Riewoldt said he was stunned at the cynicism that greeted the Fremantle announcement about Hogan’s unavailability. He shouldn’t have been.
No doubt Hogan has a medical issue and Lyon was seeking to protect his player. It is just that sometimes the giraffe is not for turning.

That's so bloody rich coming from an industry that answers to ******* no one with all their mistruths and agenda driven rot.

Does this Patrick fool not realise that it is the media that made the industry like this?

Let's say for instance Jesse, a young bloke still finding his way in this s**t-fight, had no anxiety issues at all (hypothetically) and made a stupid decision to get on the grog and present unfit for a super important session and then the club reported it as exactly that. The media would ******* roast Jesse like a murderer BECAUSE of their agenda.

Jesse would have made the wrong decision yes, but the media fallout has potential to ruin his career (and life - who knows). There is no circumstance where he deserves that. This is why the industry is like this, because there is no accountability or regulation for these terrible people. (I excuse the legit unbiased journalists in this)

Norm Smith Medallist

I take from that article Smith thinks based on his external view of the club and his cereal packet degree as a Journo that he is better positioned to diagnose the player and the condition than our club physicians who have assessed him first hand.

Norm Smith Medallist

Has completely changed my opinion of you. Clearly you are some kind of evil criminal and should be banished from BigFooty and only referenced when we can loosely link you to some incident, no matter how small and insignificant. God it is so great to be up here on my high horse - I should apply to become Australia's Archbishop.