> In article <3uo773$5s6@ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Joerg Rhiemeier,> rhiemeir@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de writes:> > > >Does anyone know more details about how the different miocene and pliocene> >apes (e.g. Proconsul, Ramapithecus, Sivapithecus, Kenyapithecus,> >Dryopithecus, Oreopithecus, Gigantopithecus, ...) relate to each other > >and to modern apes, and human? ---trimmed---> > Ramapithecus has been lumped into Sivapithecus, and doesn't exist> anymore. Both Siva and Gigantopithecus are now recognized as sister> groups of Pongo.

G. seems closer to Pongo.

> > I don't think anyone really knows what to do w/ Kenyapithecus anymore. > It shows remarkable dental similarities to Sivapithecus, but I don't know> that anyone is comfortable with placing it in the Siva/Pongo clade. Most> of the material is dental, mandibular, or maxillary.

K. seems to be the sister group of the Pongines.

> > Dryopithecus is a controversial genus. It almost certainly lies either> just within the large ape clade, or as a sistergroup to the rest of the> large apes. Some of the premaxillary/maxillary anatomy looks "African> hominoid", but there are other features that may indicate relations w/> Siva/Pongo. As is usually the case, more material is needed.

D. appears to be the sister group of the AA clade, with the Pongines being
the sister group of the Dryopithecines.

> > Oreopithecus is weird. It almost certainly lies WITHIN the extant> hominoid clade (although there have been claims its a cercopithecoid). > It shows similarities to several different extant groups, including> gibbons and humans. I don't really think anyone knows what to do with it.

The database likes the gibbons as a sister group of O., and O. as the
sister group of the Kenyapithecines.

> > Proconsul IS NOT considered a common ancestor of the great apes and Homo,> or even of all extant hominoids. It is too primitive, lacking many> derived features shared by all living taxa. It is a sister clade to all> extant apes.

Yes. The database has the pliopithecines as the sister group of the
cercopithecines and the pair as the sister group of the proconsulids
(etc.).

> > The best candidates for common ancestry of African 'noids (including> humans) are Dryopithecus and Ouranopithecus (= Graecopithecus?). > Ouranopithecus especially shows potentially apomorphic features (African> pattern premax/palate articulation, well-developed supraorbital tori)> that link it with African apes. There was a recent suggestion that> Ouranopithecus is in fact a sister group to gorillas, and the discoverers> of much of the recent material make a reasonable case for Ouranopithecus> being the earliest hominid (I use "hominid" in the traditional sense> here).

Yes. My DB suggests it's about as far from Gorilla as P. paniscus is from
P. trog. That's probably wrong, given the lack of post cranial data.

> > Another very interesting Late Miocene (~8 Myr) hominoid is Motopithecus> from the Samburu Hills of Kenya. The genus is based upon a single> maxillary fragment that superficially looks a great deal like a gorilla. > However, the enamel is thick.

Samburu hominid?

> > There are no good candidates for a common ancestor of chimp and human. > A. ramidus is the closest thing to that yet, and it is probably> post-divergence (i.e., more closely related to humans than to chimps).>