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I won't quote because your post is too long for the short answer you'll get. But I think I get your point, now, and I think you are right, ciplogic.

Thanks for appreciation and somewhat sorry for long-winded answers.

I will also add another thing: if let's say that the all low-level things are written into C (or C++), let's say 15.000 lines, and all the machinery is written around this low backend is written in a VM and is around 80.000 lines of AsmJS and JavaScript code generated from a Java/GWT backend, and these lines will generate C/C++ into 150.000 to 200.000 lines of code. Would be Mir a VM based server, or not? (think in the same terms about a kernel based logic, where the core of interrupts is written in C). (so: 15.000 lines of "core" and Java core logic -> 80K generated JS -> 200K lines of C++ that is linked within the kernel)

I think in true value of this phrasing is based on defining terms: "C++ is slow/complex/etc." which wording is not well defined by most cultures: "what slow means", "complex", etc. Is like "managed" in "VM world". As for me VM based runtimes as much they are using an ahead-of-time compilers (I will put GCJ as an example) gives very little differences of what "native" and "managed" would mean, both in performance terms, as how it runs and what it means. This is why I do think that using a language in which developers are comfortable with is the way to go for them, if they fill good enough the requirements of the tasks.

It wasn't a critic. That wouldn't have been clear enough for me to understand it. I just didn't quote because my post would have been bigger, take more space to scroll (there are users who get bothered by that) and I hadn't a lot to say.

Now I come from the days in Linux where you had to compile your own graphics drivers etc (Jockey you are a blessing). Many of the problems people have spoken about I have never seen with ATI cards. I havent seen most of these problems in years actually. I have a few, like I need to use FGLRX-updates drivers and wine (possibly vmware also) seems to want to use the built in ati x300 (issue is however with wine and possibly vmware. Other than that I am issue free with it. I think that it is a positive thing that Mir is being developed, Linux is about competition of free software, some suit needs for some, others for others, and the world gains due to each improving their product. Mir seems to be targeted at making gameing better, and I think that is the way to go, or a place to start. People reacted this way over unity, many left linux because of it. But in the end many people actually loved unity, and thus a positive change was made, and those who still dont like it can use gnome, lxde, xfce, kde, cinnamon, or a slew of others that suit their needs. By logic those others dont need to exsist because, well, according to most peoples logic, why would we need another desktop when we already have one? The same answer to that question also answers why we need Mir, Vaporware or not. It is a hope heading in a direction for improvement.

The Linux desktop is in a very shitty situation because of the attitude of the FOSS community. The people that work on Wayland are the same people with the X.org mess. We cannot expect anything different from them. Luckily, Canonical realized what types of people populate the community and chose to ignore them, because listening to them would be condemning Ubuntu to 1% forever. Mir is the result of Canonical not listening to the community. And this is why it might actually have a chance for success.

The problem with your theory, of course, is that someone can't fix the problems with X unless they know what those problems are. None of the Mir devs have any clue what the original problems with X were, or the reasons why Wayland devs made the choice they made, which resulted in Mir making some of the same mistakes all over again (not to mention many new ones).

The Linux desktop is in a very shitty situation because of the attitude of the FOSS community. The people that work on Wayland are the same people with the X.org mess. We cannot expect anything different from them. (...) Think about it. The FOSS community has been doomed to 1% for so much time it's hard to believe that these guys have what it takes to dominate the market. Listening to losers leads to self destructing behavior. Finally a company understands this and does what it should.

This can be extended to any company/product, isn't it? FOSS did rewrites and the same people wrote stuff many times and every time they learned from mistakes. This is the part you seem to forget.

Originally Posted by BO$$

The FOSS community has a few good ideas, but they should be taken and used completely separated from the 99% that is complete shit and is pulling everybody down. It takes strong leadership to do that. Let's hope Canonical manages to follow through. If not, Linux will remain forever doomed. Been using windows 8.1 since its launch. Linux is so far behind it's not even funny. And Microsoft keeps progressing and adding features. Competing with Microsoft at this point is nearly impossible.

Right now people use Linux not because it's superior but because they like to feel like renegades fighting against the great evil that is Microsoft. The 1% that is always against. Linux must be taken from the hands of these people and pushed mainstream if it wants to have actual success.

It looks in your mind that MS is the only one that is making progress. Maybe you don't read Phoronix, but as far as I notice all (major) projects do improve over time. Linux, Java, Mono, KDE, Gnome, XFCE, GCC, LLVM, Gallium3D, XOrg and Wayland too.

If you have the view that basically Win8.1 is a such advanced OS and the KDE, Gnome have no comparison features let's see them side by side:

Feature

Win8

Gnome3

KDE5

Supported dev language

C++, C#, JS

C, C++, Python, JS, Vala

C++, JS, Qml

Animation framework

Yes

Yes

Yes

Color correction

Yes

Yes

Yes

HTML 5 integration

Yes

Yes

Yes

Community never creates something new, probably you have an overview which misses some exceptions: the community, the active projects and their contributions.

If you want something that is like OpenCL, or as bold, and is from community, look for example for Asm.JS, developped in the open. Do you want something more advanced? Like a game? Look into 0AD or OpenRA. Just look around, don't look just coveting the tiles in Windows 8.1 and say that this "revolutionize" computing. Are you a trojan horse of the Linux community?

In fact which "innovation" was with Windows 8.1 that is so amazing that has no equivalent inside Linux world?