I'm not building him exactly. Just using that is a general idea of what I was looking for ability wise.

Hmm.
Hey, Lyn. I know Ephebe is a cleric spell-gunner who's proper name is escaping me. What are the odds of Gian being able to learn that?
And then at the same time, Nero is retrained to a Magus instead of fighter.
Future stuff that doesn't just involve them being split up. :)

This system really isn't helpful to noncombatants. :/
Especially when it's not magic.

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A merciful weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of damage, but all damage it deals is nonlethal damage. On command, the weapon suppresses this ability until told to resume it (allowing it to deal lethal damage, but without any bonus damage from this ability).

Also simply the abilities of gunslingers to shoot parts of the body work without any real effort to do "vash" just using called shots constantly.

Yeah, but before they made the official ruling that bloodline arcana affected other class spellcasting abilities, people probably felt the same way about that idea. It's ridiculous. Until it's in the FAQ.

There's a large difference between an ability that says "it does this to all spells of this type" and "this class may do this as part of it's class, this class can spontaneously lose it's prepared spells..."

one refers to spells in a general sense, the other in a specific sense of it's own class (and thus it's spells)

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A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that she did not prepare ahead of time.

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Abberant Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell of the polymorph subschool, increase the duration of the spell by 50% (minimum 1 round). This bonus does not stack with the increase granted by the Extend Spell feat.

The difference is large, one is refering to the classes spells and the other is just referring to any polymorph subschool spell.

the feat lets you do things that require range within your first range increment. IE rather than sneak attack at only 30ft, now you can sneak attack within the first range increment of say a longbow, or a Rifle, etc... including after doing things to increase that range increment.

Remember though, you're only allowed a single attack as that full round action. So at the point you're diong this, you're sacrificing 2 or more shots for one with the precision based damage.

My GM allowed me to use the Rogue Class' 'Sniper Archetype for my Ninja since the abilities that were replaced all had the same advancements. So if the abilities replaced by the archetype fit with another class' abilities then it's possible for a GM to house rule it, though going by RAW it is not.

Ninja is actually a rogue archetype and not a class. You can actually play a ninja scout per the rules. But technically not sniper because you lack trapfinding and trapsense to replace.

Gm fiat is one thing, but your gm basically just let you be a non-compatible archetype ontop of another archetype.

To prepare or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a cleric's spell is 10 + the spell level + the cleric's Wisdom modifier.

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To learn or cast a spell, a bard must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a bard's spell is 10 + the spell level + the bard's Charisma modifier.

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To learn or cast a spell, a witch must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a witch's spell is 10 + the spell level + the witch's Intelligence modifier.

....Unless otherwise noted, using a hex is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The save to resist a hex is equal to 10 + 1/2 the witch's level + the witch's Intelligence modifier.

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A scarred witch doctor uses Constitution instead of Intelligence when determining the highest level of spells she can cast, her spell save DCs, number of spells known at 1st level, and any effects of her hexes normally determined by her Intelligence.

The class feature of a scarred witch doctor only applies to what the witch would use intelligence for casting and hexes. Much how you don't ask if the bard or clerics ability would affect an oracles spells.

Ok here's a question for you, if you're a lvl 1 wizard, a lvl 1 cleric, and a lvl 1 sorcerer, what casting stat do you use?

The answer is Int, Wisdom, and charisma...

If you took Empyreal bloodline sorcerer (cast wis rather than charisma) the answer would be int, wisdom, wisdom. Archetypes are written in a self referencing manner.

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Constitution Dependent: A scarred witch doctor uses Constitution instead of Intelligence when determining the highest level of spells she can cast, her spell save DCs, number of spells known at 1st level, and any effects of her hexes normally determined by her Intelligence.

A witch doctor... not a sorcerer, not a oracle, not a wizard etc. Only the witch doctor classes count towards this.

So, just so I'm clear, your argument is that a character cannot do the following:

Make a full attack, during which he takes a 5-foot step, and then drop prone.

I know you knocked this line of reasoning earlier, but you are currently contending that it is not the use of a move action that prevents a 5-foot step, but instead it is the movement of the whole body that prevents it. You need to demonstrate that dropping prone isn't whole body movement to support your position.

Good luck.

I'd argue you could do that because you haven't moved when you take the 5ft step, and dropping prone has no restriction on prior movement.

This is identical to my earlier mention of being able to 5ft step while prone and then stand up. Dropping prone or standing up from prone have no riders prohibiting them from happening if you have moved already.

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All these are variations on moving your speed, whether by walking, climbing, swimming, flying, running, withdrawing, crawling, charging....any way you move from square to square, using up your movement (typically 30-feet/6 squares as a 'walk'). These are the 'other kinds of movement' your quote refers to.

So can you 5ft step with dimensional agility after using dimension door?

And by your same ridiculous pedantic argument regarding movement, readying or dropping a shield requires movement.

I've quite clearly stated that changing your position from one position to another is the furthest I would declare movement. Unlike the others here I'm not making a distinction on the action type taken that caused that movement, merely that you have moved and thus cannot 5ft step.

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, there is clear indication even in just the PF rules that by "movement" they meant only moving a physical distance, not merely moving a body part.

I understand that completely, it's interesting you keep going to parts of a body moving rather than the whole body, which I have repeatedly and clearly stated is not what I'm talking about, and that I'm including a complete move of the body's orientation.

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It's been demonstrated to be so in pretty much every response you've gotten.

No it has not, it's been amply demonstrated that in 3.5 there was an example that made it clear you could perform a 5ft step after standing up despite that being considered movement in any rational sense of the word movement and that the restriction on movement bmust then be in regards to distance moved in squares etc...

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Which is why the 5-foot step rules refer to "moving any distance", and don't, say, claim that you must not move your arms.

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You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement.

The 5ft step makes no mention to DISTANCE as is the key to your argument, but movement. A definition of which fretgod99 has already provided and most literate readers already are aware of.

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The entire basis of your claim here is that "stand up" is a "move action". Nothing which isn't a move action is even remotely related.

You must clearly not be reading what I'm saying let me re-summarize for you.

you may not 5ft step when you perform ANY KIND OF MOVEMENT. Regardless of the action taken, standing up from a prone position is "changing your position" and is an form of movement.

If we accept that we can 5ft step except where excluded from it, ie how charging, moving your speed, etc all say "you may not also 5ft step" then that means that after you use dimension door with dimensional agility, you can then promptly 5ft step if you wish.

We know that cannot be true because as 5ft step says, you cannot do it when you move. So the exceptions listed with movement and charge are unnecessary.

3) You have argued that in the real world standing from prone is considered movement. You have offered no evidence that the same is true with respect to the rules other than to repeat it over and over again.

The game is based to model its self somewhat after our world. It uses our language as its base to convey that. The book does not need to define movement unless it wants to create a distinction different than the norms of society.

So we look and see there is no definition of movement, so we must assume that our understanding of movement in the real world translates just fine. If it doesn't it would have to include an example to show how it works differently. IE the old tordek example.

In a similar vein we have many concepts not defined because our understanding of it outside of the rulebook is adequate to understand what it is that's being done. Things like smelling, tasting, drinking, et al, do not need "defined" unless they want them to mean something different than they do in the real world.

There is no need to prove that a change in position which is movement in the real world is movement in the game. There is only the need to prove that it isn't considered movement in the game, to wit no one has done so except in the example of tordek which is not in the Pathfinder game.

What in stand up from prone makes it different from any of these? (And I mean what in the rules makes it distinct)?

The English language tells us a change of position is movement, ie prone to sitting to standing to supine etc.

Andrew Christian wrote:

So. Can we leave the the op with the comment:

If it isn't clear 100% in the rules, then its up to the GM to interpret the rule. Therefore expect table variation.

Just because almost 100% of other GMs will interpret it different from him, doesn't mean we can't put this discussion to rest by invoking table variation.

that's never an appropriate answer to any rule discussion here.

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The description for the 5-ft. step says you can't take one if you perform any other type of movement. Within the context of the rules, this is in reference to the various modes of movement made with the Move "Move Action": climbing, swimming, flying, etc.

Any other type of movement is never described in an absolute term. Likewise I still see everyone dancing around the dimension agility and being able to 5ft step afterward. I'm assuming it's because everyone of you realize that regardless of how you personally are defining movement, it is movement and prevents you from 5ft stepping afterwards, even though it contains no restriction against 5ft stepping afterwards.

So the whole argument of only movement that conflicts with 5ft stepping calls it out in its text is inherently flawed.

Lastly reducing an argument to an absurd level does not make it always a valid argument. In particularly since I clearly defined the limits, taking it past those limits is not arguing anymore it's just masturbation.

And your attempt to reinterpret dimensional agility is just getting silly.

So your contention is that you can use a 5ft step after using Dimension door with that feat? I find it amusing that you acknowledge this question, but promptly ignore it and dismiss it without addressing anything related to it or why you are dismissing it.

You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action.

Its interesting that in the combat section, standing up is listed as a move action not a move equivilant.

But wait you say! the Glossary says move equivilent...

Let's read about AoOs first.

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Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.

Then we go to the glossary of prone...

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Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

So we have one area of the book that says it's a move action, and then another that says it's equivelant to moving for AoO.

Even with your perspective of movement only means actual distance, we realise that standing up is a special form of movement at this point.

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So all they do is phrase it as a restriction; if you take the "move" kind of move action, then you cannot take a 5-foot step. Otherwise you moved no actual distance and you can.

I'd argue that the language its self about "you cannot take a 5ft step when you move" was unnecessary language because of the language of 5ft step precluding its use with any movement that turn.

In specific lets look at this ability.

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Dimensional Agility

Teleportation does not faze you.
Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door.
Benefit: After using abundant step or casting dimension door, you can take any actions you still have remaining on your turn.

It has no restriction on 5ft step, so should I assume that I can 5ft step when I use Dimension Door? After all, I haven't used a "move" move... and I have a swift, move, and free actions available now.

If your answer is anything other than "of course not because you've moved" you've already proven that it's unnecessary language and that the 5ft step language is all you need to know if you can do it or not. Not an ability telling you "you can't 5ft step" after doing this.

Insisting people not only be familiar with the 4 core pathfinder books, but also be familiar a book from a different publisher, from a prior edition to understand what they can or can't do while 5ft stepping seems pretty silly.

If you're going to insist on debating this and relying on DnD 3.5 or later... please don't bother with this debate. It has no merit.

My contention is that when you stand, you're moving your whole freaking body. From a horizontal to a standing position. This is movement.

And this contention is just plain wrong.

Care to site something? The book says nothing on this matter, and the real world says that is movement.

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There you are: The thing, in Pathfinder, that absolutely and unequivocally distinguishes between move actions which prohibit a 5-foot step, and move actions which allow it.

Don't paraphrase, quote it then... you have no quotes. Stop arguing with me with quotes from a different game (even if this game is based on it) and don't tell me what you think it says, provide a quote.

I've done you and everyone else the courtesy of providing quotes, unfortunately all I've got in reply are quotes from DnD, and a few inferences. My inference of movement from the mythic book interestingly enough didn't warrant a comment one way or the other even though it's one of the most telling points and the move-equivelant point of standing up.

I'd consider just about anything that broke RAI as a form cheese regardless of if the end result is weaker

That's an interesting stance.

Even when a FAQ acknowledges that "it's ok, we know this lets you access some prestige classes early and that's fine because it's generally a weaker option than the class?" by the ones writing the game, is somehow breaking intent?

Most people accept the term cheese or broken as a term to mean getting a benefit that exceeds what you should be able to achieve or that the rules normally restrict you from getting.

But you view cheese as merely anything that doesn't go with what you think rai is regardless of relative power to someone not using cheese...

I said you could 5ft step and then perform any movement that wasn't restricted by prior movement or 5ft steps... which is essentially just the move action along with charge and a few others spelled out, can't be performed after a 5ft step

I didn't address your point specifically because I didn't feel it added anything that wasn't stated by prior posters and addressed already. IE that prone is a condition and that standing up is movement not "counted" in the gamm is not indicated anywhere in the book.

There is no directive that movement should only be counted in terms of tacticle, overland, and exploratory.

I'd also point out that the Glossary clearly spells out that standing from prone is a "move-equivalent action", as opposed to a "move action"

yeah I brought up that this is the closest the book comes to saying one way or the other.

Pathfinder/3.5:

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A new RPG? Why not just stick with 3.5?

In a sense, that's exactly what we are doing. All Pathfinder products will be written for the 3.5 rules set until August 2009, at which point new releases will transition to the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game rules. That means that Legacy of Fire (the current Adventure Path) uses the 3.5 rules, but Council of Thieves (which begins in August, 2009) will use the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. Both rules sets are similar enough that conversion between the two will be an easy affair for most Game Masters.
The core rulebooks for the 3.5 rules system are already out of print, and we feel it is important to keep a core game available to new players. Plus, as great as 3.5 is, there remains room for improvement. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game enjoyed a year of open, public playtesting, making it the most robustly playtested game in the history of tabletop RPGs! We're sure you will find many of the changes intriguing and worth consideration for your campaign.

One can assume that if something was added or removed, it was for the sake of "improving" the game... or if we're cynical, that it was simply space constrainted, editing errors, or other human reasons unrelated to a vision of changing some 3.5 rules.

The reference point people bring up to prove their point of Tordek taking steps etc... could of directly been ported over with a "Valeros taking steps etc..."

If you do either one first, the other is automatically excluded. However other forms of movement are not excluded, teleporting, standing/dropping prone.

No where do I say you can move then 5ft step? check yourself son.

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Even the post from the dude who (I assume) was originally arguing you can't stand and 5ft step is now arguing you can?

go re-read things.

"if you do either one first the other is automatically excluded" refers to the prior mentioned movement or 5ft step which specicially exclude each other from being performed if you have done either one.

5ft step specifically says you can't do it if you have moved at all (not will move at all) so you can 5ft step and then do any movement that's not restricted specifically.

ie how you can't perform a move if you've 5ft stepped.

prone/stand up are not precluded from being done if you've moved prior, like wise neither is reloading/sheathing etc.

yes those are my words... so are you endorsing them or just reminding me of the stance I've had this entire time that standing/dropping prone is movement? And that you can't take a 5ft step if you have done any movement?

If you're reminding me of a stance I've consistantly maintainted throughout this thread, that seems odd. So I'm assuming you must of bolded what you did because you agree it's movement.

just remember that unbreakable fighter gives you endurance and die hard right up front. Also the dimensional agility feat line lets you cast that spell as part of the attack/move etc.

dimensional assault:

PRD wrote:

Dimensional Assault

You have been trained to use magical movement as part of your combat tactics.
Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, Dimensional Agility.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you use abundant step or cast dimension door as a special charge. Doing so allows you to teleport up to double your current speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability) and to make the attack normally allowed on a charge.

Just remember the three feats you're talking about are all things you need anyhow just about. only one is really extraneous. In return you can give yourself a +20 to one hit a turn that also ignores concealment in all its forms. (also if you can take it again, do it with magic missile and now you've just thrown out free damage everyturn)

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Of course in a home campaign the GM is completely free to say "Hell No!" to that kind of cheese.

Cheese is all relative. Some would call casting lvl 9 spells two levels sooner than this build cheesier than anything you get out of all this (ability to cast in full plate with 0% asf as a swift action)....

Also remember at the epic levels, having the spell slots open to quicken true strike will help immensly, also spell perfection... quicken that true strike or magic missile for free

Spell Perfection:

PRD wrote:

Spell Perfection

You are unequaled at the casting of one particular spell.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 15 ranks, at least three metamagic feats.
Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.

that's the thing 5ft step is precluded if you perform any movement or if you move any distance, it's not just distance.

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Nobody is arguing that standing up isn't movement in real-world terms.

Many are arguing it's an issue of semantics, but that's not what's going on it's asking what the game defines as movement... which it doesn't. So you're left with commmon sense based on real world to define a concept of movement.

Pathfinder never in its rules defines movement anywhere at all, as strickly in the three prior listed measurements of movements. In the context of the game they need something that either declares or gives an example to take you away from this perspective.

They do this to some extent by defining movement actions in place of movement, but the one thing they never do is make a distinction of prone to standing being something other than movement. That is to say, a move action that is not movement. Or to say "you may still take a 5ft step after standing up from prone" The closest is it being listed as a move equivelant action.

let's look at the mythic book.

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Defensive Move (Ex): Once per round, you can designate one opponent. Unless you attempt to move through that opponent's space, your movement (including standing up from a prone position) doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity from that opponent.

Is prone listed in the "your movement" bit in parenthesis because it's not classified normally as movement, or because this movement normally provokes and needs called out specifically due to it?

I'm not arguing semantics, I'm arguing that whatever clarity might have been present before is abscent now and is not clear.

I'm a nurse by trade, if my doctor tells me to change the position of the patient I'm assuming I need to move the patient into one of several positions (it's a term meant for posture/relation of body to location)

Prone, Supine, sitting, standing, recumbent. A change from one of these positions to another is movement.