The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.

Born in 1960. Lincoln never reached age 60, and FDR did not turn 60 until January 15, 1942.

The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.

Assuming we are talking about presidents, Joe Biden has a small chance; none of the others do. Bernie Sanders has an outside shot. See my video for who are the only 3 who can be gray champion presidents.

Of course, gray champions are not necessarily presidents, and there's more than one. About 18 years ago on the Fourth Turning Forum, I predicted it would be Hillary Clinton. But she didn't measure up. None of the above will.

I think Al Gore is a gray champion just for making global warming a major issue, and just for enduring all the abuse he got for doing it. Bill McKibben is another. Michael Moore and Robert Reich may not be gray champions but I can't think of anyone better yet.

Assuming we are talking about presidents, Joe Biden has a small chance; none of the others do. Bernie Sanders has an outside shot. See my video for who are the only 3 who can be gray champion presidents.

Of course, gray champions are not necessarily presidents, and there's more than one. About 18 years ago on the Fourth Turning Forum, I predicted it would be Hillary Clinton. But she didn't measure up. None of the above will.

I think Al Gore is a gray champion just for making global warming a major issue, and just for enduring all the abuse he got for doing it. Bill McKibben is another. Michael Moore and Robert Reich may not be gray champions but I can't think of anyone better yet.

-- Bernie

Like u say they don't have 2 b Prez. Benjamin Franklin wasn't Prez

& Bernie probably would b Prez if he wasn't screwed over during the primaries

The Gray Champion isn't necessarily the leader. It's the Prophet values champion driving the social change, but the leadership could be provided by a Nomad, as happened in the Revolutionary War saeculum.

Steve Barrera

[A]lthough one would like to change today's world back to the spirit of one hundred years or more ago, it cannot be done. Thus it is important to make the best out of every generation. - Hagakure

Well, here is one Boomer I think deserves Gray Champion status - Robert Reich. He is active on social media, promoting a progressive-left view of what is needed to fix the country. He is very firm in his beliefs and an excellent communicator.

Steve Barrera

[A]lthough one would like to change today's world back to the spirit of one hundred years or more ago, it cannot be done. Thus it is important to make the best out of every generation. - Hagakure

(11-16-2018, 09:03 AM)sbarrera Wrote: The Gray Champion isn't necessarily the leader. It's the Prophet values champion driving the social change, but the leadership could be provided by a Nomad, as happened in the Revolutionary War saeculum.

First of all, the GC is not a person, per se. It's a mantle worn by one or many people carrying the torch and showing the way. I suspect that Bernie Sanders will be seen in that light, regardless of his run for office in 2020. He changed the political discussion on the left completely when he ran in 2016, and it's now the de facto baseline. That's GC work if I've ever seen it.

Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.

Could there be room for a "new Martin Luther King"? After the conscience-free leadership that shows utter contempt for reason and fact, this could be just what we need.

The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.

Let me remind you that the grey champion isn't always the good guy. In Germany the grey champion was Hitler; keep that in mind. In the Soviet Union, the grey champion was Stalin. Sometimes the grey champion turns out to be evil.

(04-24-2019, 03:22 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote: Let me remind you that the grey champion isn't always the good guy. In Germany the grey champion was Hitler; keep that in mind. In the Soviet Union, the grey champion was Stalin. Sometimes the grey champion turns out to be evil.

Let me add a point we tend to forget, or maybe just ignore. The Gray Champion is not a person. It's a role. Benjamin Franklin served as a gray champion in his day, but so did others. George Mason also served as a counter to Franklin. And let's not forget the authors of the Federalist Papers, both of whom were young.

The point of the gray champion is to be a beacon. Most who serve in that role never lead in the traditional sense.

Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.

We could see people seemingly unlikely as models of the Grey Champion. Figure that America now has more dissidents than it has had since the era of anarchists and Bolshevik-imitators. They could be libertarians, conservative traditionalists, liberals, socialists, or Marxists. Trump is objectionable to many for different reasons.

Social media could thrust people from obscurity to unforeseen prominence. Some people who have thought that their views are a significant minority may find that they have an input into institutional change. Some of us have the same capabilities that our Founding Fathers has.

Donald Trump represents much that is wrong with our country -- greed, dishonesty, contempt for reason, sexual exploitation, and moral hollowness. The 4T leadership that defines the future of American life usually implies a coalition of disparate interests; in the late 1930s such included rising minorities (then Jews and Irish-Americans), western and southern agrarian interests, conservationists, liberal intellectuals, and organized labor. If America is divided neatly between Trump supporters and those who loathe him, those who now opposed to Trump are divided also on why they oppose him. Trump would have succeeded had he put together so disparate a coalition (which might have included Christian fundamentalists, racists and religious bigots, monopoly capitalists, bureaucratic elites, farmers and ranchers, energy interests, and maybe some people who now despise him; at such he seems to have failed catastrophically. Someone else will define a 4T coalition that sets the tone of the forthcoming 1T. Just watch the 2020 election.

The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.

I hate to be the one who tells you, y'all are wrong. But there's nothing new about that. Back in 2015 I said that there were only two candidates for being the GC. Those were Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders. The DNC screwed Bernie over (and his world view is going no where fast anyway) so that left Donald Trump left standing--begrudgingly for some Boomer Neo-Cons (Big Government Liberals that just have an R after their name really).

There is no point in making a prediction in 2019--he's already shown up. He will have a second term too. Question really should be since unlike with FDR we have term limits if the 4T lasts longer than 2028 will he have someone suitable to pass the torch to. I'm looking for an Xer Nationalist-Populist of the Trump vein.

(04-30-2019, 08:21 AM)Kinser79 Wrote: I hate to be the one who tells you, y'all are wrong. But there's nothing new about that. Back in 2015 I said that there were only two candidates for being the GC. Those were Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders. The DNC screwed Bernie over (and his world view is going no where fast anyway) so that left Donald Trump left standing--begrudgingly for some Boomer Neo-Cons (Big Government Liberals that just have an R after their name really).

There is no point in making a prediction in 2019--he's already shown up. He will have a second term too. Question really should be since unlike with FDR we have term limits if the 4T lasts longer than 2028 will he have someone suitable to pass the torch to. I'm looking for an Xer Nationalist-Populist of the Trump vein.

I'm sorry: Mafia Don is many things, but a successful President is not one of them. If he gets reelected, and that remains a possibility, this country will not recover for decades. It won't matter so much to me personally: I'll be dead for most of it. But I have children and grandchildren I want to have a good life, and turning the country over to a lying thief is not a way to achieve that.

Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.