UPDATED: Joe Torre can’t get behind a Buster Posey-inspired rule change to protect catchers, but Bruce Bochy still plans to pursue it

Note: After writing the original post with Joe Torre’s comments, I was able to reach Bruce Bochy to get his reaction. Bochy said he still plans to pursue a rule change and plans to go about it through a grass-roots effort in which he hopes to build consensus with other managers.

I rewrote the story to integrate Bochy’s comments and it replaces the original post.

Buster Posey will put on his customary helmet, shinguards and chest protector when he gets behind the plate in a few months. But he won’t get any additional safeguards in the rule book.

Although Giants officials remain in favor of a rule change that would protect catchers from being targeted in home-plate collisions, the matter didn’t come up officially at the winter meetings last week in Dallas. It didn’t get past Joe Torre, Major League Baseball’s vice president for on-field operations.

Advertisement

Torre heard out Giants manager Bruce Bochy in several phone calls over the summer but declined to recommend that the rules committee take up the matter.

“Well, listen, I knew it was more emotional than anything else,” Torre said last week. “None of us like to see that. But I really haven’t heard anything that would encourage me to change anything or recommend a change. Being a catcher for a lot of years, I knew what the consequences were.”

Bochy isn’t giving up. He spoke informally with several managers at the winter meetings in an attempt to build consensus; he said at least four or five agreed that a change was warranted. Tony La Russa, who retired after leading the St. Louis Cardinals to the World Series, was among those on board, Bochy said.

Giants vice president Bobby Evans started his own grass-roots campaign with officials from other clubs at the General Manager’s meetings in Milwaukee in November, Bochy said.

“I’ll continue to push for it,” said Bochy, who plans to raise the issue with Torre again this spring. “Sure, I’m disappointed. But it’s going to take other managers also getting involved, and some of them believe it does need to be changed. It’s something I’ll still pursue.”

The Posey play was a perfect storm in the 12th inning of a tie game on May 25 against the Florida Marlins. Rookie baserunner Scott Cousins tried to tag up on a fly ball that Nate Schierholtz caught in medium right field. Knowing that Schierholtz has a strong arm, Cousins said he knew the ball would beat him to the plate and he’d have to break up the play.

But the throw short-hopped in front of Posey and he wasn’t able to make a clean stop. As Posey turned toward the plate, still in fair territory, Cousins clearly went inside the baseline while leading with his right shoulder. Posey had dropped to one knee and his left ankle was pinned underneath him as the force of the blow toppled him over. His fibula sustained a fracture and he tore three ankle ligaments, which required two surgical procedures to repair. Posey couldn’t walk for three months.

Although his Giants teammates called it a clean play, Posey and club officials pointed out that Cousins had a clear lane to the plate. He chose to take out Posey instead of slide.

Bochy has lobbied for a rule that would award a catcher “a safe area, a neutral zone, whatever you want to call it, where he’s protected – particularly if he’s taking a throw from right field and is vulnerable”

Torre said he couldn’t get behind that idea.

“People have pointed out, `He was given a piece of the plate to slide to.’ And that’s true, he was,” Torre said. “But once (Posey) catches the ball, as a runner, you know that piece is gone. He’s going to block it.

“That play was not Buster’s fault. He’s trying to receive the ball, retain it, and here comes the runner. … He had committed to break up the play.”

Advertisement

Bochy said GMs in November discussed instituting a no-collision rule in exhibition games, but there’s no chance any meaningful protection wouldn’t come before opening day. Bochy acknowledged the argument that runners could get hurt if they were forced to slide, but said there are ways to tweak the rules that would make the game safer for everyone.

“You’ll have collisions at home plate. You can’t take that away,” Bochy said. “But it’s protecting the catcher when he’s vulnerable. It shouldn’t take something really terrible to happen before something gets done. We need to change this. These runners are getting bigger, stronger and faster.”

Posey’s long rehab has progressed well and he caught pitchers in the bullpen during instructional league in October and November. Although the Giants expect him to be ready this spring and to be their catcher on opening day, Bochy plans to give Posey plenty of starts at first base to rest his legs and keep his cleanup-hitting bat as fresh as possible.

The collision is further incentive for the Giants, and other teams with offensively gifted catchers, to think harder about moving their young stars out of harm’s way.

Torre said he hasn’t closed the book on the issue, even if he doesn’t see himself reconsidering.

“We’ll continue to listen,” Torre said. “I’ll listen to anything that makes sense, and you know if it comes from people like them (Bochy and GM Brian Sabean), they always make a lot of sense. So I’ll listen.”

If a change ever does come, Bochy would make one more request.

“I don’t want to see this referred to as a `Buster Posey rule,’” Bochy said. “This has happened before. It’s time to make a change for the good of the game.”

Andrew Baggarly

Andrew Baggarly has documented the most eventful era in San Francisco Giants baseball history, having covered the team since 2004 for th​ree major media outlets including the San Jose Mercury News and the Oakland Tribune​. This is his 20th season as a baseball writer.
​Baggarly is the author of the bestselling book, A Band of Misfits: Tales of the 2010 San Francisco Giants, and the newly published Giant Splash: Bondsian Blasts, World Series Parades and Other Thrilling Moments By the Bay. Baggarly’s other notable life accomplishments include running as the Bratwurst in the Milwaukee Sausage Race and becoming a three-time Jeopardy! champion.

As far as I can tell, Torre’s done jack squat since taking on this operations role. He’ll listen, but won’t do anything. Fits right in with Selig’s MO, doesn’t it?

stickman

Can’t precisely put my finger on it, but it strikes me that Torre has not handled this correctly. A hard slide is one thing. A virtual full-body tackle is something quite else.

Jeff

I am a big time Giants and Posey fan but think it would be ridiculous to change the rule. He gave Cousins part of the plate but it still wasn’t a dirty play. If he doesn’t get hurt, as thousands of catchers haven’t on similar plays, there is no discussion and cousins is referred to as a toughs gamer. He’s a 25th man who needs to bust his ass all the time to stay on a team. Luckily for him, this year he’s battling Rowand for that spot.

Darren

Agreed, no rule change needed. If it’s the risk of losing your catcher for the year or giving up the run, maybe you instruct your catcher to try and apply a swipe next time but stay clear of the dish

noma_pride

Whether we think there should be a rule change or not, Torre’s attitude and arguments (rather a lack there of) towards this request from the Giants reeks of stubbornness. Did he have any conversations with other teams? Did he review past collisions to at least form a baseline? (no pun intended) Doesn’t seem like it. Lazy SOB.

Lefty

It strikes me that even in FOOTBALL, a sport designed for people to hit each other on every single play, they’ve made major rule changes to protect quarterbacks and others.

There’s a difference between “legal” and “clean.” Cousins made a choice to go after Posey on purpose. What really bothered me about the play was how he lowered his shoulders into Posey; the way Posey’s head and neck snapped back was really scary. I said something like this on a different board the day after it happened, and someone said I must “be either a doctor or an overprotective mom.” But then Posey himself said he felt fortunate not to have a head, neck, or spine injury.

Does someone have to end up a quadriplegic or dead for a rule change?

Lefty

And OK, I AM a Mama Bear. And a doctor. (But not the kind that poster meant.)

The Wisdom Cow

I thought we were all past this. Darren’s take +1

Peter

Funny thing is…there is no rule that allows you to block a base, home-plate or otherwise. And, obviously, if you’re not allowed to block the base, there is no reason to take the defender out (at least in cases where a subsequent double-play throw is not involved).

Special Note to Darren. Posey was instructed to leave the plate open, as that is the Giants default instruction to its catchers, and it was wide open. Cousins is just a blockhead who decided very early to go head hunting. If you watched the play this is all pretty clear. And Cousins admitted to that in his post-game interview immediately following the game. Interesting that the interview was pulled off the Marlins’ TV partner’s website the following day, after the extent of Buster’s injury became known and the local backlash against Cousins started. No need to add fuel to all that by showing a grinning Cousins telling the audience how he knew he’d have to take out Buster as the ball was still in the air. The idiot never considered that the plate might be open.

Mr. Sarcastic

Yawn

Darren

Thanks for the special note. Last I checked my comment was based on the rule change not Cousins’ intent. Do I think he’s an A**? Absolutely!

I don’t like the option he took either but would you really be barking about this if a Giant took out Humberto Quintero for the year? My guess is probably not.

Also I didn’t say leave the plate open, I said stay clear of the dish. I don’t pretend to have the answers to this but common sense tells me if I have a catcher as talented as Posey and we’re in 1st place, take a different approach because we all see where this one got us.

Foothills Ryan

I’m kind of down with Jeff #3 and Mr. Sarcastic #10 on this one.

I’m looking forward to watching Posey strap it on like the gamer he is and lead the Giants in 2012.

Ceadderman

How many Giants scored runs last season doing EXACTLY what Cousins didn’t?

Apparently Torre took one too many shots blocking the plate. Cause I don’t see anything wrong with what Boch is askin for. I see Torre’s side of things but that is pure speculation. In that instance and many dotted throughout the league, the Catcher DIDN’T have the ball. Buster didn’t have time to get the ball and protect himself. He tried but instinct kicked in and he chose to try to protect himself.

I would have gone one better. If you see that you’re not going to get to Home w/o the collision and you have yet to round 3rd you’re OUT. Not that it would have helped in this instance, but guys like Fielder went after our Catchers expecting them to back off the plate and allow the score after Buster’s injury.

When Selig retires/kicks off I hope he takes Torre with him.

ClutchUp

I found this NEW issue of EBaggs to inevitably bring up and old wound. Hopefully we all just stay right here but others may go back one blog.

Wisdom, Darren and Peter: We all know what Official Rules of baseball state…that the catcher, without the ball in his possession, has no right to block the plate… The base line belongs to the runner and the catcher should be there only when … there is going to be a play at the plate which all fans think they know, but it’s really a MLB umpires call. (Like the sliding runner at 2B, needs to be able to reach and grab the bag)

—That said this qualified as one of those instances… but since hindsight is always 20/20 here goes. Nate drifted into (way) short right center field to make the play as he had the stronger arm that game. Just as Nate camped under the ball he lost his momentum and caught the ball with little momentum. The one hop throw was not Nate’s best, but still above average. -Remember baseball being baseball the Giants scored four runs in the ninth inning to send this infamous game into extra innings.

To this day I favor Mike Matheny’s view of the play, no disrespect to Johnny Bench’s initial knee jerk reaction. I’ve met Scott Cousins. There are too many University of San Francisco baseball people who know that Cousins was NOT the guy that Sabean initially vilified.

To put things in perspective, Busters interview with Costas on MLB dot com – regarding the incident is what should really matter. Buster has moved on.

No matter which way all fans are leaning, the Cousins/Posey play will have a subliminal factor.

They JUST cannot legislate it out of the game.

The NFL is now struggling with their own violent helmet to helmet hits and although they are being proactive, some within the game have no idea what is legal from game to game)

Peter @ 655p is 100% correct that the Giants organization teach their catchers to show/give ’em a spot, etc. That way as a catcher you KNOW where you’ll normally be giving/receiving contact/punishment.

Throws that hop “in between” are diffucult for catchers/catchers gloves.

That’s why ideally the “long-skip-hop” is preferred, or the quick little short hop is better (Rowand/Posey – Ruiz/out at home plate/SF/Phills to take 3-1 lead in NLCS 2010)

Adam L

FWIW, I believe it to be a dirty slide but that happens from time to time but I don’t believe in a rule change either.

Just out of curiosity for those that support a rule change, what punishment do you propose giving a player for doing what cousins did to Posey IF such a rule was in place and cousins was deemed to be in violation of said rule? A fine? A suspension? Can we break his leg too? What?

Adam L.: I’d say along the lines of what the NFL is doing–a fine plus a suspension, on a case-by-case basis depending on the play. Repeat offenders would get more (again like the NFL).

The umpire should also have the discretion to disallow the run if in his view the takeout was illegal OR to allow the run if the catcher was illegally blocking the plate. It should go both ways. A baserunner can get severely injured on this kind of play, too.

The parallel I draw is the protection the NFL has instituted for defenseless players — be they receivers, QBs or kickers. The NFL has made substantial changes in this regard.

IMO that is a very similar situation to a catcher taking a throw from the outfield, particularly right field. They are in a defenseless position, not able to be looking two directions at the same time, and they have a professional athlete bearing down on them at top speed.

IMO a rule change would not be a bad thing, and I like the parameters Lefty laid out at 8:08pm.

ClutchUp

Lefty: I agree with the resolutions that you have shared, but professional baseball is rooted in the old boys network and unfortunately for Buster, many, many, many catchers chimed in and said to not make a rule to govern this play.

However the fine per perp may be explored as it was talked about right after the incident.

There is really no way to discount the run, unless the runner failed to touch the plate, or perhaps from a MamaBear perspective there might be one/two ways like having Runners Gone Wild acting like a maniacal PapaBear and while approaching home plate, reaches down and grabs a bat or the catchers mask and uses either to gain entrance to the plate called HOME. (kidding of course)

ClutchUp

Lefty says: December 15th, 2011 at 8:08 pm

Glad you brought up the baserunner getting hurt… As a catcher in college with full gear on, I loved nothing better than to “show the runner” which part of the plate “was his” and then get a good throw one second before touch down and be the one to exert the punishment.

Dinero and you have valid points and perhaps there will be an addendum to the OBR. NCAA and HS ball already has clear cut rules.

totalfan62

Quick heads-up to all the regular posters: some very good posts and comments at the end of the last thread (Fontenot…). Please make sure you check appx #390-402 for some very good opinions and viewpoints from the core of Extra Baggers.

totalfan62

Lefty, love ya in all the right ways. You rock on, Dr. Mama Bear! Sure hope we get a chance to meet at a 2012 Baggs Blog game.

Bob

I would say that the hit was not as bad as the intent. The player was never going to take the side of the plate Posey gave him…with or without the ball. He should have been suspended for going out of the way to hit Posey.

One other thought…I promise you that if it was Posada that was lost for the season Torre would have changed his tune.

napacat

After reading this, I just cancelled my subscription to MLB.tv. Obviously Joe Torre doesn’t get it. I’m not into giving people money for the “privilege” of watching a grown man get his leg broken on national television.

Nor do I want to pay to watch the Giants, or any other team, dilute the quality of the game by moving talented players like Buster elsewhere so the catcher is left to be a “lesser”, more expendable player.

Puh-leeze. I am a woman. And I am a woman who is old enough to be Buster’s mother. If Torre isn’t human enough to just naturally dislike violence, maybe he’ll hear this message – he just lost a customer.

Napacat: Well said, and welcome to the Mama Bears. I have a daughter a bit younger than Buster, and I kept thinking how hard the whole thing–seeing the collision, the aftermath of the injury, all the controversy–had to be on Buster’s pregnant wife.

I don’t like the attitude, “Well, if you’re going to be a catcher, you get what you get.”. You’re right; that’s why talented young catchers get moved elsewhere. Clutch is right: that’s old-fashioned. It could and should change.

napacat

Lefty (28) – Thanks!

Part of the strength of my reaction here came from something that happened with me later in the season after Buster got hurt. I was visiting my 16 year old goddaughter in another city and during my visit the Giants came to town.

We were watching the game on their local channel when suddenly commentator comment made me realize they were getting ready to replay the Posey injury. I couldn’t find the remote fast enough to keep my goddaughter and her little brother from seeing the hit, and I was _not_ happy.

Woj

Cousins was a goon, take the part of the plate offered to you and try to score not tackle the opposing team catcher. This rule needs to change to the following: Catcher blocks the plate – runner is automatically safe. Runner blows up catcher when plate is open (as it was for dolt Cousins on 5/25/11) then runner is out and fined an obscene amount of $$.$$ talkes louder than anything for overpaid players and I’m sure a hefty fine will certainly have more would be Cousins’ goons in 2012 sliding into homeplate like they always should. Torre is a status quo defending dolt.

Jedediah York

If you believe that its fair for a baserunner to make contact with and knock the ball out of the catcher’s glove at home plate, then logically a baserunner should also be able to make contact with and knock the ball from the 1st basemen, 2nd basemen, or 3rd basemen. Why is home plate isolated in this regard? It doesn’t make any sense. Likewise, a leadoff runner should be able to knock the ball out of the fielders glove when he runs back to the base after a pick off attempt.

This needs to be changed, it has needed to be changed for years. Does someone have to be disabled or killed to get a response?

Peter

#27. Bad take. Lot’s of things have changed in 100 years. Home plate collisions aren’t really part of the game much anymore – neither is the concept of a pitcher protecting his players with some well aimed head shots. Sure, obviously, they still occur on occasion, but with nowhere near the regularity or ferocity as in the “old” days. It’s almost an accident when either happen now, aside from a few noteworthy exceptions. And in those exceptions, it’s usually a young player on a young team doing it.

I noted a while back that catchers rarely ever blocked the plate like they had 30 years ago. These guys aren’t enemies, they’re all part of a fraternity, and there’s too much money on the table to play recklessly. Only a leaderless punk squad like the marlins would allow a scrub player to take out one of the league’s meal tickets.

Foothills Ryan

Also on board with Peter’s take. There’s an unwritten rule that Cousins violated and the incident will stay with him to some degree for the rest of his life. It will also, unfortunately, be the only memorable event in his short big league career.

dgg

Good for Bochy to push this. The collision was horrific to watch, and you knew immediately it was bad. Buster was in such acute agony and pain on the ground. It was a relief to see that he could move his body below his neck and it didn’t look like he’d been knocked unconscious.

At the very least, the safety of catchers in home-plate collisions deserves to be talked about by the rules committee and not just brushed aside with tough-guy comments like: “when you’re a catcher, you know the risks” and closed-minded comments like: “this is how the game has always been played.” Just because something has always been done one way in a sport or organization, doesn’t mean it’s wise.

VamosGigantes

Buster Posey’s college career showed that he’s an exceptional player who can handle any position on the diamond. But the man wants to catch, and the rules are not going to undergo an immediate change. If he can live with this, then so can I. I’d also like to back up to a couple of days ago when some folks were saying there’s little difference between Fontenot and Keppinger. I think the Giants kept the right man: record with Font as starter: 32-18, with Kep: 25-28.

I agree with most of you that the occasional big collision at the plate is going to happen. Keep the rules as they are. This is an insignificant issue in the bigger scheme of baseball. There are so many things baseball could do to make it a better game than to worry about anti-collision rules to protect catchers. What upsets me are things like how many thousand of calls are blown every year by our umps. It is pathetic. Even when you blow a perfect game, baseball will not say uncle. Baseball is the least progressive major sport and it is not going to change because it is baseball. I am a huge proponent in getting calls right by what ever means are necessary and done in a timely manner. I would be happy to see human umps do the things they do well and have computers do the things they do well. I don’t think a ump should define the strike zone. Pure stupidity. A computer could get the call right 99.9% of the time. I saw Cain so visibility upset from a ump making inconsistent strike calls this year that Cain lost his composure and got pulled from the game for allowing too many runs. The reality is Cain’s strikes were being called balls I think unfairly. I want a consistent strike calling for every ones sake.

Back to catchers. Posey has a serious injury prone tendency. I think his career might not be a long one, not because he isn’t hard working and talented, but because he is fragile. I watch every Giants game on TV even though I go to most in the Cove and I have never seen a catcher see stars like Posey has. Mark my words, if he stays as a catcher, I think we are taking a very short career. He would make a better first baseman I think because he is both slow and fragile, but Buster knows he is more valuable as a catcher. There’s the rub. He is a average 1st baseman at hitting, but a above average hitting catcher. I am pulling for Posey, but my guess is he will talked about as the ROY and WS Catcher when his career is told. I hope I am wrong about this. Go Giants!!!

Obsessivegiantscompulsive

Torres is Seligs lackey, plain and simple. All the rest of the other baseball organizations, from T-ball to the minors have rules helping to protect the Catcher at home. I would rather call it the Fosse rule, because that showed how a promising catchers future is wiped out by a collision.

This is not sensible. Then why use batting helmets? Shin guards? Catchers mask? Cup protectors? Why not go back to the small thin gloves used at the turn of the 20th century? Because it makes players safer to do all this. MLB, make things right!!!

As @Bob states, the *intent* is what bugs me most. That i-view after the game w/ him smirking said it all, no other words necessary. Of course TV hadda remove it; too damning.

As @Jedediah points out, why is home plate excluded from the interference rules of 1st, 2nd, 3rd bases? Makes no sense. If a rule is applied, it should be done consistently, not conveniently.

JY stated it better than I could:

“Jedediah York says:
December 15th, 2011 at 10:22 pm
31..
If you believe that its fair for a baserunner to make contact with and knock the ball out of the catcher’s glove at home plate, then logically a baserunner should also be able to make contact with and knock the ball from the 1st basemen, 2nd basemen, or 3rd basemen. Why is home plate isolated in this regard? It doesn’t make any sense. Likewise, a leadoff runner should be able to knock the ball out of the fielders glove when he runs back to the base after a pick off attempt.”
———————-

As @Clutch states, this conjures up alotta emotions from that day in May, and that Buster has moved on from it. We should too, but, it doesn’t mean we should abandon attempts to improve the “system.”

I don’t buy the archaic excuse, “it’s been done like this for 100 years” song and dance.

Adaptation and change for the better is a good thing.

—————————-

Lastly, we saw a play this year that proves a baserunner does not need to blow up a catcher to score, even if he arrives at home plate, a f t e r the ball. (remember how Beltran slid into home plate after the ball had arrived, then reached over, brushed home plate w/ his hand, got up, and marched to the dougout. beautiful. show this to the younger players and teach ’em how to do that.)

Herbalist

Its Sabeans fault…every baseball fan from Eric Byrnes to old school Marty lurie were acknowledging before the injury that Posey should not have been behind the plate because it was limiting his offensive production and time in the lineup. Add the extra injury risk on top of that and you see why most catchers are defensive oriented players..catching is a dangerous position where you dont put the centerpiece of your offense.

walt kovacs

football has made changes to limit injuries

college ball no longer allows collisions at the plate

players have gotten bigger, the game is faster, of arms stronger and more accurate

it is time for a rule change

and there is no way that play was clean

walt kovacs

mccoveycovedave

concussive injuries to catchers are a normal occurrence…ask the new manager of the cards

doesnt make one injury prone….get grip

walt kovacs

ballplayers didnt used to wear batting helmets, shin guards, gloves….foul balls caught were not considered outs

This is not even a top 10 item issue in the game of baseball. The proof of that is how the broader baseball community feels (both fans and teams). There is no majority out there clamoring for a rule change to protect catchers. This is an “emotional” issue for Giant fans and the Giants organization. This issue is dead on arrival to MLB because it does not have any support. Andrew B. points that out that Torre acknowledged this was an emotional issue. Baseball needs change like more offense, better play calling, less delay of game and so much more. It needs to be more competitive with other sports for fan interest. Andrew, do you that this is a top ten change issue in baseball?

al oha

Torre doesn’t see a need for a clarification and enforcement of the existing rules? The rules don’t allow for purposely taking out a player physically, regardless of if it’s always been done like that in baseball. Taking out a catcher came into popularity because of bullheaded catchers such as Mike Scioscia who used to purposely totally block the plate, daring you to try and take him out. But, this kind of play likely started long before him.

If Torre doesn’t see a need for a re-examining of the rules, the Giants should find a 300 lb. guy who can run like a locomotive. They then use him as a pinch runner late in the game on 3rd base. Then they instruct him to go, even though the catcher will be waiting for him with the ball. Forget about the plate and hit that catcher so hard that he does 5 rolls and into the backstop, then go back and tag the plate. If the catcher can hang on to the ball and stay concious, more power to him. If not, oh well, I guess “it’s just a part of the game and always has been”.

Next we start taking out 3rd basemen. It’s the same principle.

Scott

Another reminder that we will have someone besides Posey behind the plate 40+/- games this year. Chris Stewart is a good guy, who does a good job defensively……..and just doesn’t hit much. If it’s not Hector Sanchez, fine. But, we can’t live with Stewart hitting 7th one day out of four.

Note: Baggs did rate Sanchez as the best DEFENSIVE catcher in the Giants minor league system for Baseball America.

If Sanchez can hit like he did in Venezuela, why not Sanchez and Posey sharing the catching duties and give them BOTH time at 1B?

Lefty

E-B: Go Ags!

McCoveyCoveDave: Not sure why you say Posey is injury-prone: the “stars” may be a result of a filthy pitching staff (including the bullpen). Hope you’re wrong; time will tell.

The Giants have an interesting scenario in that Posey is a really good catcher and they are deep at the position for years to come. I could see some kind of hybrid dual-catcher thing where Posey catches a few days a week because he wants to and he’s good at it and someone else–Hector, Joseph, Susac?–becomes the alternate, not just the backup–a real integral part of the team. What happened this past year showed that you need to be overstocked at that position.

I’m glad you brought up the umpiring. It’s a disgrace with modern technology that these decisions are still being blown by fallible humans. Galarraga’s perfect game, the ridiculous “safe” call in the 19-inning Pirates/Braves game, our Phil Cuzzi game in 2010–no excuse for any of that continuing to happen. And I’m done with umpires’ idiosyncratic strike zones.

They do brain surgery and land airplanes a lot differently now. No one says, “Well, my great-grandfather did brain surgery this way 100 years ago, and it’s tradition.” and yeah, I know no one dies if an umpire blows a call, but the point is why not do your job the best you possibly can?

mlb_shefan

You know, a batter gets hit in the head with a pitch, they come up with a better helmet to protect his head (granted it looks like a cartoon-character space alien helmut, but hey, if it does the job, who can argue). Change can be a good thing. The scary part about this whole thing is that MLB is being compared to the NFL, two very different types of sports. Painful as it is to watch, I have seen the replay many times and I think that Posey was playing MLB, Cousins playing NFL. MLB won’t change anything to offer a modicum of better protection for the catchers? Fine. Eventually someone will be paralyzed or die and then MLB will “revisit” the issue. Thank God that Buster Posey is the kind of man he is, forgiving and moving on, AND willing to go back to catching.

Visitor

#40 Herbalist summed it up perfectly. LF would have been the best position for Posey. Too late now.

Husker

Lefty said it all.
The rules in this situation are barbaric.
Those who say, “It’s part of the game” are Neanderthals. Wait, I take that back. That’s an insult to Neanderthals.
Torre just doesn’t get it and should be fired.

laughing

Better yet,,lets change all the rules,,play slow pitch,put a screen up in front of the pitcher, don’t keep score and give everyone a trophy. or,,,,just maybe teach your catchers the correct way to make that play.

You may be laughing, but you’re not funny.
Baseball is not meant to be football, yet even football has rules protecting players in vulnerable positions.

Husker

I’m a little late in commenting on this, but the signing of Mota for $1M was another in a series of small bad moves Giants management has made this season.
Mota is almost the definition of a replacement player. In a 12-year career, he has averaged 0.3 Wins Above Replacement (WAR) and ended up at 0.0 last season. That is the kind of pitcher that teams typically sign several of to minor league contracts. If one works out, you’re ahead.
Like all the preceding bad moves this offseason (paying $10M for 2 average lefty relievers, Sanchez and change for Cabrera, Torres and change for Pagan) it is hardly disastrous (like Wheeler for Beltran) , but small bad moves add up. If nothing else, they leave less money for signing some decent shortstop, like Barmes or Furcal (now, unfortunately, both gone).

Foothills Ryan

You’re ridiculous Husker. Nothing satisfies you. Ever the contrarian. I’m lumping you in the fringe with the unnameable poster. 1 million for a reliable innings eater. Gets out of bed throwing 90. Knows the league. Can play the long relief card. Can close out in an pinch. Welcome back Guillermo!

Foothills Ryan

Rockies solidifying their lineup. Coors will be a dangerous yard to play in once again.

They’ll give up runs with a young, aceless staff , but they should score a bunch.

The Gambler

Billy Beane instructed Kurt Suzuki to ALWAYS allow a clean line to the plate for the runner. Kurt’s value to the team long-term means that sacrificing a run or two is worth avoiding a lengthy stint on the DL. It’s rare that I agree with Billy Beane on anything, but this coaching makes sense.

Just a thought, but I wonder if Buster had the same instruction, would he have positioned himself a little further up the line or ahead of the plate? Maybe Cousins takes a wide-angle head first slide instead?

Yeah, wishful thinking. Cousins is nothing but a scrub headhunter. Gee, when the Giants play Miami, I hope a fastball up and in to Cousins doesn’t get away from Mota…

Husker

Foothills Ryan,

It’s easy to call people names and state unsupported opinions.
Try looking up a fact some time.

I like the Mota deal too, especially with Zito as our #5. We will probably need his services.

Lefty

You know, I don’t really understand what the Rox have been doing this past year or two. Cuddyer is a good add–he’d be a good add for just about any team–but it’s obvious the team’s biggest need is pitching. So they signed Tulo and CarGo to monster contracts, now big $$ for Cuddyer, but they traded away Ubaldo, who was under a team-friendly deal for the next several years? I don’t get it.

Also, while Tulo is absolutely the real deal, I’m not as convinced about CarGo. They may have jumped a bit soon at that huge long deal for him. Kind of reminds me of Ryan Howard on the Phils except that Howard had a longer track record before getting his latest extension.

Maybe they figure they can’t ever get good pitching at that ballpark so they might as well try to outmuscle everyone?

Lefty, I may be pessimistic about Posey and injuries. I hope he does great things for the Giants for many years! I love your duel catcher thought or the possibility to get him to 1st base.

Keep’n It Real

All emotion with regards to Posey aside, there should be a rule change to protect the catcher more. That rule change show require the catcher to stand in front of the plate and it should call any player out that shows intent to initiate contact with the catcher.

Why?

Like others have stated, players are bigger/faster today (naturally and other) *and* there’s is a huge financial investment in elite catchers like Posey.

There is a rule to protect 2B. Pitchers also don’t throw at players anymore (like Gibson used to)…because of the money involved in the game now, so it makes sense to look at ways to protect these players a little more. Yes…it takes away from the purity of the game, but I would rather see players like Posey play all year…than worry about how the game is changed. KInd of like DH and inter-league play.

Posey will be fine hitting-wise, I honestly don’t get the concern. He’s not going to forget how to hit because he injured his ankle. That doesn’t make any sense. The guy can hit.

Yes, I know Mauer has never been the same since his injury, but that was a concussion. That’s a whole diferrent thing. Just look at what’s going on with Sidney Crosby — he went from the best player in the NHL to probably done for his career due to a concussion.

Buster will come back strong, he will come back raking, just like he’s been doing his entire life.

The Wisdom Cow

Well, if the runner is aiming for the glove, not the torso and/or head to dislodge the ball via TKO, I don’t have a problem, really. This presumes, of course, that the glove is headed for a point in between the plate and the runner. Any rule changes would almost require enforcement of the “no blocking the plate” rule. What then? A perfect throw has a catcher sitting right on the path in front of the plate, . . . , SAFE!, catcher was blocking . . .

—————————————

A poor substitute for my Darvish fetish. I so hope it was not just a leaked rumor to quell the Darvish contingent, a move several of us outlined as having so many benefits not just for the roster, but the economic future of the club.

My head may explode! Trade away something to the Yankees instead of bidding 2 mil in the first place? Is this some Darvish consolation? Sure, he could be a good upgrade at SS, but this is hardly the way to crack into the Japanese market to sell merchandise.

I know (please note sarcasm, though the more I think about it . . . ),

Avoid the hole problem by instituting a brand new rule somewhat similar to a force play. Any runner within [insert distance between 5-10 feet] of home plate is out if a player with possession of the ball touches home plate. No more tags at home.

From one perspective, it does make some sense, as so often the Ump makes a call based on whether the ball beats the player anyways.

ROB

Its reallly silmple,, rule is already in place at 2nd base,, you must slide at home,, period,, your late and tag is made its you or your 3b coach for sending you,, you beat the throw your in,, you can’t go in to 2nd base standing thats the rule,, so all bases should have that rule to protect players and huge money invested,, NFL rules protect quaterback because of money invested pure and simple,, it what all rules last 10 yrs in all pro sports are for first protect the franchise player 2nd,, its the real world..

BTW if one has to slide at all bases the def player can block the bag or plate at his own risk unless we start playing with tennis shoes only,,,lol

Not a fan of automatic force plays at the plate at all, that definitely feels like beer-league stuff. Sliding to beat the tag on a play at the plate is one of the more exciting plays in the game.

I think it’s a simple change. If the catcher is blocking the plate, i.e. up the line towards third (which Posey wasn’t), then he’s fair game. If the catcher is not directly in the base path, i.e. the runner has a path to the plate (which Cousins did), then a collision means the runner is automatically out regardless of the outcome of the play. Yes, this would require some judgement on the part of the umpire, but hey, that’s what they are paid to do.

ClutchUp

Keep’n It Real says: December 16th, 2011 at 11:05 am 61..All emotion with regards to Posey aside, there should be a rule change to protect the catcher more. That rule change show require the catcher to stand in front of the plate and it should call any player out that shows intent to initiate contact with the catcher.

@KIR

The rule at the second base bag is that the runner must be able to “grab” a hold/touch the bag…Much injury has been inflicted by runners towards middle infielders EVEN by being able to reach and touch the bag.

I will go out on a limb here: In HS and NCAA, NAIA etc the REASON the so-called ‘safety-slide rule’ (that is not what Umps call it) exists it because YOUNG middle infielders are NOT being taught HOW to turn double plays. Our generation knows but not the younger kids; The SS and 2Bman are playing too FAR from the bag in double play situations and they get to the bag (late) at the same time as the runner; Frustrated high school and college associations thus decided to impose the rule to protect the SS & 2B, and detract from overall aggressive – hustle of the runner.

(Sadly in certain Adult soft ball games, the runners scoring from third base DO NOT touch home plate. All they do is “go past” a perpendicular chalk line about 10 feet from home plate)

My point? Soon more and more catchers will be perfecting and tweaking their plate mechanics so that career-ending injuries are a thing of the past; Coupled with that, with all the video, we WILL see fines issued to runners who circumvent common sense or a yet to be drafted “rule”

The Wisdom Cow

CU, no amount of tweaking plate mechanics can prevent career ending injuries (which Posey’s was not). These guys are taking balls off the helmet constantly, making them highly susceptible to severe concussions from collisions that they would otherwise recover from. Those are LIFE concerns more than baseball career concerns, and the only real justification for rule change.

ClutchUp

Dinero said – You can absolutely disallow the run. Just call the runner out for interference, just like you would in a double play situation.

-Thank you for that nugget of truth, that is an excellent point. In trying to find another angle, Country Joe West was the PUmp that game. Doubtful he has done anything so noble during the last 10 yrs of his career.

Lefty

Gambler: There were a bunch of quotes right after Buster’s injury about how Bochy had told him the previous summer not to ever block the plate–basically the same conversation the A’s manager had with Kurt Suzuki–Posey’s too valuable to lose over one run or even one game, especially a game in May. (The 7th game of the World Series? Maybe you take a bigger risk.)

It was a bang-bang play (pun intended because Nate was involved), and Dinero raised a good point about how a catcher in that situation is pretty defenseless.

To Dinero’s recent comment, I’m guessing the challenge for Posey will be not that he had a leg injury but that he’s had such a long break from hitting major league pitching–and a break coming when he had barely a year of ML service. I expect him to be rusty, but I also expect him to figure it out. He seems to be that kind of guy.

good point Lefty, it’s probably wise to expect a little rust on Buster to start the year. But I’m confident he’ll shake it off pretty quick.

ClutchUp

mccoveycovedave says: December 16th, 2011 at 12:04 am 36..Back to catchers. Posey has a serious injury prone tendency. I think his career might not be a long one, not because he isn’t hard working and talented, but because he is fragile.

-Been in the water a tad too long? Where did this come from…Someone in the waters of the Cove share this discombobulated thought after hours in the Cove…with certain Reefer elements 😉

What if someone used poor water safety towards you several times and you required hospitalization and someone from the sidelines who knew nothing about what you and your friends do in the cove…. chose to call YOU a non-savvy water-user???

Posey saw STARS because he was in pain, and took an unusual violent hit from Scott Cousins – who Mike Matheny rightfully stated was not a dirty play (because MLB was complicit) but “he also went hunting”. When a true hunter finds his prey, someone loses.

I truly welcome you, you’re avatar and your point of view from all your experiences in the cove, but JUST because you said you HOPE you are wrong does not dismiss the fact that your statement towards Busters toughness or prediliction for being injury prone – can be forgiven. Perhaps you will soon understand…

TheWillies

Home plate collisions have only been a part of MLB since the ’70 All-Star Game, when Pete Rose took out Ray Fosse. Previous to that, runners slid into home plate. By 1971, when Joe Torre won the NL Batting Title, he was a full-time 3B. (He may have quit catching before that, idk.) Scott Cousins was out of the baseline when he plowed into Posey. Posey was on the north side of the plate. He was not blocking the plate. Cousins should have been out. I wanted The Giants to throw at The Marlins the next game, but Bochy took the high road. it ended up in The Giants’ favor as The Marlins went into a tailspin after that game and the manager got fired.

ClutchUp

Herbalist says: December 16th, 2011 at 12:14 am 36..Its Sabeans fault…every baseball fan from Eric Byrnes to old school Marty lurie were acknowledging before the injury that Posey should not have been behind the plate because it was limiting his offensive production…

—Had not heard that one: First of all, Eric Byrnes has zero cred, unless one gives it to him by listening to his ranting and yelling. Byrnes tried scoring once vs the Yanks by Twinkle-Towing into home, not even a basic LL slide. He stepped over the plate/missed it but had time to go back to touch/but argued w/ump while catcher tagged him.
-Second: I betcha Marty did not say that within the context your presented.
-Lastly: Posey is a catcher, is a catcher, is a catcher and it was NOT limiting his production. He was drafted from FSU as a catcher after converting from IF/RHP. Started every (62) game his last year at FSU behind the plate…

Injuries are PART of the game, will grant you that. If there is a silver lining, Posey will play 75% of his games behind the dish and 25% at 1B.

ClutchUp

mccoveycovedave says: December 16th, 2011 at 2:45 am 43..This is not even a top 10 item issue in the game of baseball.

—It does not MATTER where this ranks within a scale of 1-10. It needs to be addressed and brainstormed. It surely ranks within the Umpires incompetency issues.

—You cannot compare the umpires and the strike zone with Collisions at the Plate because, the umpires are in on 200-400 pitches per game and 27 outs per game. Catchers collisions happen 3-5 times per season.

ClutchUp

Visitor says: December 16th, 2011 at 8:35 am 48..#40 Herbalist summed it up perfectly. LF would have been the best position for Posey. Too late now.

Sorry, but you are incorrect.

ClutchUp

The Gambler says: December 16th, 2011 at 10:55 am 40..Billy Beane instructed Kurt Suzuki to ALWAYS allow a clean line to the plate for the runner. Kurt’s value to the team long-term means that sacrificing a run or two is worth avoiding a lengthy stint on the DL. It’s rare that I agree with Billy Beane on anything, but this coaching makes sense.

—Good points, Baggs wrote an article saying the Giants teach/request their catchers to do the same. Good Stuff Gambler.

ClutchUp

ROB says: December 16th, 2011 at 11:33 am – Its reallly silmple,, rule is already in place at 2nd base,, you must slide at home,, period,, your late and tag is made its you or your 3b coach for sending you,, you beat the throw your in,, you can’t go in to 2nd base standing thats the rule,, so all bases should have that rule to protect players and huge money invested,, NFL rules protect quaterback.

—It’s doubtful that in OBR it says the runner must slide at second base; He can peel off, he cannot interfere…Some runners who slide late to break up the DP (Vintage MLB 70’s-90’s) have worn a baseball on their foreheads)

—They will never make a you must slide at HP rule because even on close plays the number one thing a runner is reading is where the catcher IS.

—75% of the time when the runner rounds third the catcher is getting reading …. as the OF throw enters the infield, many catchers are seen leaving the plate to run forward and retrieve a poorly thrown ball…

At 55 – Amen, welcome back Mota
Can’t have enough rubber arms in the organization

ClutchUp

The Wisdom Cow says: December 16th, 2011 at 11:43 am CU, no amount of tweaking plate mechanics can prevent career ending injuries (which Posey’s was not). These guys are taking balls off the helmet constantly, making them highly susceptible to severe concussions from collisions that they would otherwise recover from. Those are LIFE concerns more than baseball career concerns, and the only real justification for rule change.

TWC: Ok, I can see that, Agreed. I know one of the other minor changes the Brass were encouraging Buster to do is consider using the older MLB mask. There is some thought that on pitches fouled back, that the older mask absorbs better than does the Hockey mask.

If the play at the plate was made into a Big Screen movie with all of Hollywood’s Liberties … I can envision the G’s dugout emptying etc.

In fact 😉 – somewhere in my REM I have had a re-occurying dream that Mota picked up the ball and threw it at SC – or that Mota tackled SC and both dugouts entered the donnybrook. (Love that word donnybrook)

Now Bonds is going to appeal. Fantastic, more money wasted. How many schools could we have helped with that money? How many hungry children could we have fed? No, far more important that Bonds get his comeuppance for obstruction of justice. So glad he’ll be forced to stay at home for 30 days, so glad he’s going to have to serve 250 hours of community service. Well worth the millions spent.

What a crock.

TheWillies

@Clutch-Up: I don’t feel sorry for Rudy. A $380K fine can be handled provided he didn’t blow through all the $11 M he scammed out of investors.

Of course this is pocket change compared to the taxpayer-funded Pelosi green energy empire.

The New York Yankees have won the bid for Japanese short stop Hiroyuki Najajima, but Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports is reporting that Nakajima’s agent has approached the Yankees about a possible sign and trade with his client.

His report says that the San Francisco Giants and the Chicago Cubs like Najajima, and may be interested, and it should be interesting to see what they would try and offer for the services of Nakajima. The problem is, Nakajima wants to play everyday, and he would likely not with the Yankees.

Later today, however, Buster Olney from ESPN reported that the Yankees have not discussed a sign and trade with Nakajima, and have only discussed what to do with his rights regarding the Yankees. So maybe all of these rumors are much ado about nothing, or maybe this could possibly spark the possibility of Nakajima being traded from the Yankees to a major league club where the short stop could play everyday.

Nate’sFanMom

@Lefty

Yeah! No jail time for Barry.

Now, Santa, please, let us have #1 before the New Year.

ClutchUp

Baggs wrote:But the throw short-hopped in front of Posey and he wasn’t able to make a clean stop…

—Just picking here, but the ball was an “in-between type-hop”.

A short hop IMHO is the type Rowand threw to Buster vs Phillie (Game 4) to nap Ruiz.

*** There are “long hops” which skip / “in between hops” that are difficult and “short hops” which if skilled like Buster are do-able.

ClutchUp

@ Nate’sFanMom says: December 16th, 2011 at 11:25 am 64..

I ALSO love your #8. Kudos ++++++++++

Visitor

Anyone who thinks Posey’s production wasn’t off last year must not have been watching. Too many foul tips to the head, plus obviously tired legs. Look at his stats: 9 xbh in 162 at bats. I know Mr. Pompous will dispute the facts, so before he does, let me say “shut the Clutch up”.

Visitor

Oh, yeah, his shoulders took foul tip beatings as well.

ClutchUp

Dinero says: December 16th, 2011 at 1:28 pm 88..what a colossal waste of time and taxpayer money that trial was.

*** Agreed + US Attorney Matthew Parrella can now join Jeff Novitzky as prosecutors who have their own issues.

Novitsky held a vendetta against Barry and was dumpster diving at Greg Anderson’s residence in Burlingame. Novitsky was a regular at the workout facility that was on the East Side of Highway 101 very near BALCO. Benito Santiago and many SF G’s worked out there and Novitsky was a little rat, asking/begging players for info but lying that he would never use it…. Karma Jeff Karma…

Visitor says: December 16th, 2011 at 2:43 pm 85..Anyone who thinks Posey’s production wasn’t off last year must not have been watching.
Visitor says: December 16th, 2011 at 2:43 pm 86..Oh, yeah, his shoulders took foul tip beatings as well.

—How articulate and informing you are. Thank you V.

NL West Projecting Device

Giants 92-70 —
Diamondbacks 90-72 2 GB
Dodgers

Visitor

Ouch, that really cut me C. I better quit while I’m behind. No way I can match wits with someone who spends all day pontificating on this blog, and can cut and paste, too! I hereby acquiesce to the master. To think one would be able to express an opinion without becoming a target of the almighty Clutch. Forgive us, oh anointed one.

Has Buster taken hits to both shoulders, and mask, face area. Absolutely. Did Buster suffer almost a career ending injury yes. I took exception to you stating or maybe agreeing with someone who said that Buster “should have been” their best choice in LEFT FIELD.

That is what I disagreed with. Why? Well, I gather because I had never read or heard that before by anyone remotely associated with baseball at any level or capacity. Could he play Left Field? Of course.

Let’s start over… Welcome Aboard, I could have done better.

Visitor

Another good one C. You really are a master of wit and the judge of all things Giants. I had not heard that one before. You’re at work and ……. never mind, it’s just too easy. I’m starting to feel ashamed of myself.

ClutchUp

Your call. It’s there for all to see. I stated: I could have done better and welcome ___________ .

Giant fans are all Giant fans. Extrabaggers if you will.

Visitor

I won’t, thanks. I’ll just go back to skipping your posts, and reading the interesting ones, without commenting. Funny how you stop criticising and welcome someone only when you can’t hang with them. Typical bully mentality. Don’t bother with a reply. I won’t be reading it.

Lefty

The Bonds news makes me remember our 1992 Christmas Miracle.

Our Giants were not moving to Tampa Bay after all. Peter Magowan and friends saved our team. And before the ink was dry on the deal, they had signed the BEST player in the game, son of a beloved Giant, godson of Mr. Giant. It was the most amazing turn of fortune, continued in 1993 by an (almost) magical 103-win season in 1993. And a few years later, they built our beautiful ballpark.

Maybe that’s why it’s so hard to let go of wanting a shiny new free agent for Christmas or New Year’s or Kwanzaa or whatever. Even though we’re still strangled by the awful recent contracts. Even though we’ve just watched the likes of Crawford, Werth, and Dunn flounder with their new teams.

It happened once, and like 2010, it seemed like a miracle. It’s natural to want it again.

And P.S., that’s why I’m happy Bonds isn’t going to jail.

ClutchUp

Visitor says: December 16th, 2011 at 3:43 pm 105..

-Such a shame. Life’s too short.

ClutchUp

Lefty @ December 16th, 2011 at 3:54 pm 108..

+++++++++++++

Barry should be in SF Uniform soon enough after most of the MLB internvention is free and clear of taint. Selig won’t be able to keep too many double standards alive (Braun) much longer.

I’m conflicted as to if BLB’s lawyers should contest the obstruction and thus appeal. Barry’s condo in Scottsdale is close to the field. I expect he and Pablo will be engaged somehow. (as will Will #22 and others)

Sansui-Sans Haiku Corner

Mrs. Sansui
In shock as Giants team just
Showed up at Sinbad’s…

ClutchUp

SSHCorner: Sinbads/Embarcadero = Sweet place…

Jstreet

It appears that mr. Visitor’s pants have a wrinkle in them. Let’s start over. No one here has appointed or anointed Clutch. For anything. He happens to be a guy with quite a lot of bona fide interest in the team. His double clutch, if you will, in inviting Visitor aboard seems sincere and a good way to redirect a conflicted intro. No point in being contentious just for it’s own sake. And if you skip his posts, you’re skipping a ton of Giants info and experience. Skipping is a great way to avoid stirring the pot on malevolent posters. Clutch just doesn’t strike me as malevolent or bullying. Stick around, visitor. We can all learn something from one another.

Just for clarification, how did you decide to put Buster in left field?

Second question, is accusing someone of being skilled at cut and paste considered a putdown?

ClutchUp

JStreet: Thanks for the Shout Out….

I did cut and paste @ December 16th, 2011 at 2:18 pm but gave credit to the source: MLB Daily.

“Visitor” might be somebody else, or someone we already know. I sensed that I was really short with Visitor, when I glibly posted: You are incorrect, thus the olive branch which was cast aside.

Oh well I was harsher with McCovey Cove Dave 😉 when I challenged his view point of Buster’s toughness…injury prone tendencies…

There is ROOM for everyone save…. wxyz.

Lefty

Clutch,

The spelling, punctuation, and grammar are too accurate to be “somebody else.”

Lefty

As for Buster, we all know he played all nine positions in the same game once in college. While I don’t see LF as necessarily a good place for him–he probably has a good enough arm, but I like outfielders who can run some–someone recently suggested in Chris Haft’s column that Posey should go back to SS. Yeah, he played there for a year in college, but if I had to pick the one spot I would not put someone returning from a catastrophic leg injury, it probably would be SS, followed by CF.

Jstreet

Lefty @ 6:02. That was my thought. No matter what the imposter imposts (probably incorrect syntax, but WTH), one thing is constant: his inability to use language correctly.

BigGigantes

Potential Rule: Prohibit collisions, but allow them when the catcher is blocking the plate while in possession of the ball. That would eliminate the situations such as Posey’s when the catcher is exposed catching the ball while the runner is simultaneously trying to force out the ball. This isn’t football. Going at the head or neck, or spiking ankles would not be allowed under any circumstances.

It’s not perfect, but it might work and took 15 seconds to write. Torre has spent more time playing the media PR game than doing anything to protect the health of players. Kind of disappointing given that he was a catcher himself. Selig doesn’t seem to mind either. F tradition, this is a change that should be made. Baseball’s strength is in its traditions, but it also is one of it’s most glaring weaknesses–i.e. taking forever to expand the playoffs beyond two teams per league, not utilizing instant replay, enforcing the decades old pine tar rule, etc.

BigGigantes

Re: Braun and Bonds, if league takes away the Giants territorial rights, the Giants should respond by bringing back Bonds for a month. Most Giants fans would probably get a kick out of it and not mind getting some instant offense off the bench. It would be funny to see the look on Selig’s face the moment he found out. F#@$*#$ A#@$*#@ S#@$@#$%*!!!

LBC

I agree with those who say Torre is just a lackey for the league. Is this attitude or behavior a surprise given the people running MLB? Bud Selig is the worst commissioner of any major sport. Baseball doesn’t care about steroids, drugs, screwed up owners, ticket prices, San Jose, criminal records, blown no-hitters, instant replay, or balanced scheduling, so why does anybody think they would care at all about protecting the catcher?

Why not let runners who are running to first base run out of the base path and hit the first baseman to try and break up the play?

pacman68

Not to be a Debbie Downer but I’m about as sick as hearing about Posey’s injury as I am about Tim Tebow. Posey’s injury sucks … it happened to our team and it really sunk our season. Do not change the rule. If JT Snow would have broken Pudges leg in 2003 and we won the game. All you guys would be praising Snow for such a hard nosed slide. That’s how the game has been played and that’s how it should be played. Can we please move on and talk about more important things like who will be our 5th starter when Zito bombs! How long will Huff be given a pass if he sucks in spring. How depleted our farm system is of arms and what are we going to do if god forbid one of our starters breaks down.

The Wisdom Cow

If only Tim Tebow had prayed for Buster before last season started . . .

I’m agnostic. That means I am an Atheist willing to hear evidence of God with an open mind. I’ll tell you, that Tebow kid has me thinking. Maybe the Giants should sign him.

At 47 years old, Barry still looks great. He has lost the puffiness of the steroids, but I have a felling if he took a bat, he would be the best 47 year old hitter the game has ever seen. Could be still pop one in McCovey Cove. You bet, not as easily, but he could. I would love the Giants to play him. He would be the most exciting bat in baseball again!!!

I know Posey played a little shortstop in college but he is no MLB SS. He has a great arm but he is so slow, not Benjie slow, but pretty darn slow. I could see him playing 3rd base where you don’t need as much range as a SS, but we already have the PANDA. No way Posey would make a great outfielder. I think he will only be considered for 1st and catcher during his MLB career.

totalfan62

Lefty, two great posts at appx #60 and #72. Good stuff.

NFM, thanks for that great Christmas list. I’m right there on all those as well. You got some great boys there, Mom!

Clutch, please keep up the good work and know that your efforts are greatly appreciated by the core group here. Knowledge, passionate yet pragmatic is the general standard and if posters wish to play along they will enjoy and learn. Thanks for keeping us focused and in the loop.

Just like in life we have to stay positive and try to see the best of what our Giants have to offer. I think most of us believe we’ll be a contending team in ’12, but there are some clouds on the horizon.

Posters here likely subscribe to the Bleacher Report, which comes out once or twice a week. If you don’t, you should. This week’s report has a very good look the parts of the franchise that have been uneven or come up short. I suggest you take time to read the “complacency” article in the attached link:
(apologies for not supplying proper link, but please find and read)

I can honestly say I wouldn’t. Hitting a catcher when it isn’t necessary is out of line, I don’t care who the base runner is.

That’s how the game has been played
They used to play football in leather helmets. You used to be able to drill guys in baseball whenever you felt like it. Games evolve.

Can we please move on
Agreed, we do need to move on. I’m trying, but finding it difficult.

who will be our 5th starter when Zito bombs!
Surkamp in all likelihood.

How long will Huff be given a pass if he sucks in spring.
I bet he gets a short leash, I hope he gets a short leash. Bochy said he would, let’s see if the skip can stick to his promise. Or, maybe Huffy comes out smoking and doesn’t deserve to get yanked. Crazier stuff has happened.

How depleted our farm system is of arms
Pretty depleted. After Surkamp, you got Heston and not too much else starter wise. Hopefully Crick will be on that list pretty quick here.

and what are we going to do if god forbid one of our starters breaks down.
Tank more than likely, just like most any team would if they lost one of their marquee guys.

Lance Newberry

Torre is wise.

Even with ponderous new hard-to-define-in-the-moment judgment rules, most collisions are fast action reflex plays and would still happen; the only difference is we’d have more interference from officials after the fact, stopping the game and going to slow motion replays to decide if the runner had a lane or if the catcher was blocking the plate.

Catchers would still get blasted either way, but the game would start going the way of the NFL, where the rules are more important than the game itself. The collisions would still happen, the players would still get hurt, and everyone would wait for the ump to come out of the viewing area to say “SAFE” or “OUT” five minutes after the play happened, and that’s no good for anyone.

Still, I bet if Bochy had made his heartfelt pleas about this issue BEFORE his star hitter got blasted it might have made more of an impartial impact.

But of course he didn’t.

Catchers are going to get blasted, banged, beat up, pounded, twisted, concussed and simply worn to a frazzling no matter how the league tries to legislate it. Torre is smart to know that it’s impossible to control every aspect of a competitive game played by highly paid professionals as if it’s a video game. Collisions have always happened and they will continue to happen, new rules or not.

Play ball.

wilriv21

@VizquelOmar13 Omar Vizquel
Let’s go now RT @rodneycatonjr: @VizquelOmar13 Omar, if you got an offer to play one more year for the Giants, what would your answer be?

Why not bring back Omar?

al oha

Torre’s a Tool.

How did he get to sit in the Almighty Judge Chair.

His managing skills came to light in Los Angeles. That team was about to implode while he was in charge.

Without the Steinbrenner’s buying an All Star in every position, it became harder for him to win.

TheCity

For those who think catchers getting blasted is part of the game – why aren’t you proposing similar rules for all the bases? Not going to be safe at first base? Take out the first baseman – it would easy to do, especially if they are stretching to make an out.

Not going to be safe at 2nd? Tackle the 2nd baseman and knock the ball out of his hand. Not going to be safe at third? Same thing.

Why would you want to limit it to only home plate if nothing’s wrong with it? The logical extension is to bring it to all the bases and turn baseball into a game more like football.

al oha

Bring back Barry? Now, bring back Omar?

Sheesh, let it go. We don’t need >40 year olds in the lineup, no matter how great they once were.

And I thought Bochy and Sabean were foolish to keep playing over-the-hill Vets and these guys were 33-36 years old.

TheCity

“he would be the best 47 year old hitter the game has ever seen”

Uhm – how many have there been? lol

Well, you might as well bring Brenly back too if you’re going down that road. And Bob Melvin!

Shellfish

Dinero, 127, nice post. Pacmans concerns are real for a lot of us.

Now, just add Sanchez back at full throttle to NFM’s Christmas list and we are money!!

Merry merry all!

VamosGigantes

I loved Omar as a Giant, but speaking of middle infielders, let’s recall that in 2011 the G’s were a winning team when Crawford started, a winning team when Fotenot started, a winning team when Sanchez started, and a losing team when Keppinger started. They wisely let Kep go. So, the 2012 Giants are fine with the 3 middle infielders who are projected to play the most. That said, sure Vizquel might have something left to spell one of those three, but honestly at this stage of their careers, I’d rather see Burriss back them up. In addtion, Joe Panik and/or Ehirst Adrianza from the minors may be ready soon.

Mavo

Of course baseball needs to make some kind of rule change to protect both runners and catchers at home plate. The fact that Torre is so traditional and old-school does not surprise me though. Baseball is permeated with the “macho” factor. When they invented helmets originally many players were allowed to not wear one and many did because they were “tough guys”. Ask anybody who has been hit in the helmet by a 90+ MPH pitch how any “tough guy” would have done???

So of course old catchers are going to say not to change the rules … after all they are “tough guys”. But the officials of baseball should have more common sense about this. I am afraid nothing will be done until a player is paralyzed or killed in a collision though. They did not make coaches wear helmets until a coach got killed by a foul ball. And they will not ban these ridiculous maple bats until a player or fan is killed or maimed!

For what it’s worth I am on record in 2009 that Posey should have been moved to the OF or 1B. Sadly 2011 proved me to be right about the risk of having your cleanup hitter behind the plate. They don’t call them “The tools of ignorance” for nothing!!

JD4SF

I haven’t had time to catch up on my blog reading yet, but just in case this hasn’t been shared yet …

Excellent interviews with Sabean, Baer, Righetti and Bochy on SFG Live – runs about 110 minutes and worth watching.

Yes the financial strategy includes planning ahead for the next few years where SF will need to spend larger to keep key players.

Yes, the more agressive base running, etc., that we saw in Sept is definitely part of the new Giants strategy … which guided the acquisitions of MCabrera and Pagan to add more speed.

I’m feeling positive about my Giants TEAM for 2012, and I’m ready for baseball season to start! 🙂

JD4SF

On the home plate rule change issue, I support change.

I see no logic in having rules protecting bases 1-3 but not including home plate.

I see the catcher’s position as the most vulnerable for injury. But catcher is the “macho” position. (Mavo nailed it.)

Even in Little League the coaches are cautious about who they put in at C. I remember a coach trying to discreetly ask another coach about my grandson when he expressed interest in C, and the conversation was reportedly something like …
“Will the boy go crying to mommy about every owie?”
“The kid lives on a ranch and does daily chores most boys his age would consider hard work. He doesn’t mind getting dirty. He won’t be a whiner or crier.”

So my grandson got the opportunity to try C, and we haven’t heard a single whimper. But he also got the message that he had to be “tough enough” to play C. The boys don’t get a “tough enough” speech from coach about other positions. So there is an “image” created even from a very young age regarding the C position.

I suspect few old guard pro catchers are likely to somehow tarnish their image as the tough guy by saying it is “too dangerous” and rules should change. And the prior generation of catchers likely scoffed initially at the new fangled face masks and other protective gear as it evolved. I’m impressed that a few C actually spoke up to support change.

Buster’s eventual public response showed tact. Class act. Also a smart decision to take himself out of the politics of any change. I suspect this is a Giants strategy. I think the most telling comment from Buster is when he flat said he did NOT want his kids playing C. THAT was the crux of his opinion regarding the dangers of the position, which implies he’d support a rule change. But he won’t be the one pushing for that change. And you won’t hear him say he’d prefer to play 1B.

Buster being a proponent for a rule change would have put a target on him as being somehow less tough than a C is expected to be. Some might have called him a whiner. Buster openly supporting change could also be perceived as personal, not unbiased. Why go there? Bochy taking point for moving this forward greatly reduces the focus on Buster so he can focus on rehab and playing ball.

I’m not impressed by Torre’s response. All it shows is a closed mind and resistance to change. Someone in his position should be giving due consideration to suggested changes, not blowing them off as being one of the hazards of playing C.

But this decision does need to be pushed at management level. Perspective there changes from “tough enough” to include more of a business / financial view. They don’t want players on the DL, much less out for the season or unable to return as a pro player due to injury.

Management needs to take into consideration that the C, like every other player, is an asset / investment. Protecting that investment – particularly the C position that is more physically vulnerable – is logical.

With Bochy continuing to lobby for change, I believe that eventually a rule change will happen. I think the dust needs to settle more first regarding the collision so the change is considered to be more proactive than reactive.

I’m feeling positive about my Giants TEAM for 2012, and I’m ready for baseball season to start! 🙂

++++++++++++
++++++++++++
++++++++++++

Michael

As McCarver has said in arguing in for a rule change: “What (Cousins) did, he replaced home plate with the catcher. He had no intent of going into home plate. And the rule says you can do that.” Until the rule is changed it will continue to happen until there is a truly catastrophic injury, perhaps to the runner. If Cousins head is positioned a few inches inches differently, it’s Gerber time for the rest of his his life..
I’ve pointed out the terrible toll that concussions took on catchers of the 19th century, with many ending up in asylums. It was a mark of courage when a catcher was knocked unconscious but still finished the game. Men like Torres and Sciosca still cling to those neantherthal notions of “courage”..

Jstreet

Dinero at 10:15pm. Good show, bro. A succinct point by point walk through of a previous poster’s ( Pacman I think), paranoiac projections. Best way to deal with a worried child. My kids were growing up, I had to handle stuff like “dad, what if the motor blows up?” and the like. We lived in the mountains and cooling systems were often a summertime issue. It’s important to remain calm.

Shellfish, thanks for reminding us that “these are legitimate concerns for a lot of us.” I tend to minimize negativity in light of more important (to me) issues. Like making it over a steep hill with a carloads of kids and groceries in 99degree weather. The old what if…

JD4SF, Excellent breakdown of home plate collision topic. And at 4AM. Lady, you are one focused night owl. I liked your recommendation for people to watch the Baer, Rags, Sabean and Bochy interview on SfLive. If more folks will do their homework before typing up the sometimes vitriolic demands of what the Giants should be doing, think of the difference!

If you’re going to take the time to sell your viewpoint on here, be informed. That will gain my attention, and my respect will follow. Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to listen to an old Little Milton record. Thanks for your indulgence.

Michael

“Does someone have to end up a quadriplegic or dead for a rule change?”
Yes.

Maybe the way to ‘tune’ umpires to the issue, is to put them in a carcher’s rig, and let them take a few slides while blocking the plate. Do that every spring, and they 1. have time to heal and 2. have a fresh memory to work from.

Nate’sFanMom

The truth of the matter is that baseball is not going to change its mind on the Buster Posey incident–not now at least.

Nate’sFanMom

RE: The Theory of Negativity (Does not apply to Baggs)

Like the rest of you, I’ve been skimming over the Giants blogs. I say ‘skimming’ because from the droll negativity you’d think the Giants were the Pittsburgh Pirates.

Here’s why I think why:

1) The bloggers have their own ‘management’ style and ideas. When the real management doesn’t follow suit, they become bitter and root against certain players or predict the team’s failure to vindicate themselves.

2) They think that evaluating the abilitities of untested young players is the same as evaluating the abilities of established players. A lot of this comes from the mathematical models and Fantasy Baseball.

However, anyone who remembers college biology will recall that living organisms defy Pythagorean models.

3) Hate to say this but the bloggers have their own favorite players despite their claims to objectivity. They spin their discourse against a player who stands in the way of THEIR player.

4) Care more about being right than enjoying the unpredictability and pure joy of baseball.

As a mom, I’ve learned that it’s different to manage a situation from within versus from afar.

I can’t wait for the season to begin, and hope there’s enough crow to go around.

Foothills Ryan

Updated projections from the device following Padres trade of Latos for big package.

Actually, those extrabaggers here that are passionate about changing that particular play at the plate as well as the other side who say no change is necessary, both have very tremendously passionate and valid points.

In order for the Infrastructure of Major League Baseball to “see it” the way the majority may want to see it, will take time. A legitimate committee would have to be in place, not some token Selig group.

There are some astute “Baggers” here who have stated some historical facts regarding how far other sports have come within the realm of safety, and some of those sports wear equipment like helmets and pads.

Poster “Laughing’s” views @ 12/16/925am are a tad over simplified, in my opinion.

Dinero and Lance Newberry both covered viewpoints from respective points of view.

I saw Mays reluctantly bat with a helmet (eventually) and then get to first base and take it off and hand it to his first base coach. I cannot imagine modern day hitters that have taken serious 96 MPH FB’s in the helmet/head area EVER surviving without a batting helmet; Some of those would have been fatal.

If there EVER is a change, it will be Player-Union driven, and (eegads) the Federal Govt might take a roll. (Due to the anti-trust gizmo).

Here is a A.M. Radio show that puts KNBR’s to shame especially whatever KNBR thinks they have with their Saturday show…

What’s good for Giants fans: Not having to see that immature jerk Latos more than 2 times a year.

ClutchUp

Off Topic
-Hate is used relatively when it comes to SF vs. LA games, but we all know or should know that the modern game has evolved to the point where a certain % of players on OUR team have been teammates at one time or another with the opposition. My resentment albeit “hateful” at times towards Wills, Tommy and Willie Davis, Sandy and DD, Alston and Lasorda, the Penguin, Sax, Garvey (the Breeder), Lopes etc was probably born out of frustration, tears and heartbreaking moments. The great epiphany was “listening to” the Giants beating LA in the ’62 – three game playoff, where 24 caught the LAST out (and threw the ball into the stands)

Thus, As a fan of baseball first who bleeds Giants “1a”, I am happy that the LA organization is giving Mike Sciorscia (played only for one team) 1980-1992) his very own B-Head Doll.

-JD: Looks like that was a teaser…and the complete session is Mon Nite at 10pm on Rock Center.

My early feelings are WoW, what a long journey Bryan has come and likewise what a continued longer road he will encounter and succeed at.

When the day…that day comes when BStow is at ATT during an opening ceremony, it is doubtful there will be a dry eye anywhere watching.

ClutchUp

With situations like this, The Players Union maybe able to draft a proposal in the way future to modernize the game. Swisher’s leg whip did not enhance him getting to the bag…but then there are the purists who probably loved this play.

@JD4SF: thank you big time for making my afternoon a more enjoyable, Giants-centric time. I put in the DVD of 2010 LDS game 3 vs. ATL as a background watch and teed up the blog. Your link to SFG show was an enjoyable 110 minutes.

Also a great post on the catcher generic/Buster specific issue.

You are indeed a Top Notch Night Owl and Charter Member of the Mama Bear Club!

Nate’sFanMom says:
December 17th, 2011 at 11:51 am
146..
RE: The Theory of Negativity (Does not apply to Baggs)
Like the rest of you, I’ve been skimming over the Giants blogs. I say ‘skimming’ because from the droll negativity you’d think the Giants were the Pittsburgh Pirates.
==============

Good stuff!

The reference to the infamous Pirates is a good one, and IMO the negativity and open bias/prejudice of the supposed fans is how the negative bloggers survive. They build a reader base of “fans” who are also more inclined to be negative instead of impartial or supportive.

Supposed “fans” with their consistent open negativity toward their own team have me completely baffled. I can understand being discouraged, etc., but can NOT understand how you can routinely bash your own team and still consider yourself a fan.

An example is those posters who pop in here only long enough to complain, yet are notably silent when it comes to providing team support comments. Sorry, I don’t see those folks as legitimate fans.

———-
fan
noun
an enthusiastic devotee, follower, or admirer of a sport, pastime, celebrity, etc.: a baseball fan; a great fan of Charlie Chaplin.

Origin:
1885–90, Americanism ; short for fanatic

Synonyms
supporter, enthusiast, partisan, booster, addict.
————–

I don’t see anything in the definition of fan that suggests the constant complainers and bashers qualify as fans of the team. Instead, I think they are fans (addicts) of negativity who also enjoy following baseball. I don’t expect fans to be somehow blind, but I do expect a “real” fan to also provide positive support.

In the excellent and informative SFG Live interview with Sabean, Baer, Righetti and Bochy, if I recall correctly all made a point of mentioning the exceptional and invaluable fan support.

Bochy in particular indicated how the positive fans can positively impact player performance. He even stated his personal opinion that the Giants wouldn’t have won the WS without the extra boost for the players from the fan support.

Anyone else remember the May 6 game when the entire stadium was roaring “Freddy! Freddy!” with Sanchez at the plate? (I was there.) The roar that rocked the city when he got the crucial hit? The post-game interview when he said he heard 42K+ fans chanting his name and that *increased* his motivation to get a hit?

Anyone remember the numerous interviews where visiting managers and players make a positive (envious?) comment about the outstanding SF fan support?

Yes, the voice of the fans CAN make a difference. I greatly prefer the *positive* impact on the team. 😉

Some teams have fans that seem to be proud of their reputation for booing their own players. I’d be booing those booing spectators who call themselves fans.

I am delighted that “my” Giants have a vast number of positive TEAM supporters, fans who greatly outnumber those who only speak up to complain.

JD4SF

165..
MamaBears and baseball lovers will enjoy!
What a Novel Idea, Sportsmanship and Umpire Ingenuity

Wisdom whatever:
Your proposal forced garbage would ONLY work if the bases are loaded and the runner interferes with the catcher’s throw to first, DUH?
DUH?
DUH?
DUH?
Giant fans and CO. quit whining…
What a bunch of tear jerkers….

Mavo

As an old catcher myself I know a lot about the “macho” image a catcher is supposed to have! Before a semi-pro game I once foolishly warmed up our knuckleball pitcher without a mask … even though he told me I should have one on. Well he threw one of his rare Phil Niekro-wicked knucklers and the damn thing jumped right over my mitt! Caught me square in the nose! Knocked me out and I woke up with a broken nose and blood spurting everywhere! So what did I do as the “macho catcher”? Once they got the bleeding stopped and I realized I could see around my broken nose …. I played the whole game! I am sure I had a concussion and I had to stop the game 4 times when the bleeding started again.. but I finished the game! So I KNOW about “macho” … and I STILL feel they need to change the rules to protect catchers and runners at home plate.

Lefty

I try to be one of the optimistic ones…but this news about Eli Whiteside has just ripped the heart out of me. Nothing against him–I’m sure he’s a great guy–but he’s just not good enough to play several days a week. We all saw it. I can live with Stewart as backup and Hector in AAA getting more seasoning, even though I’d really like Hector’s bat on the roster, but the idea that the Giants would choose Whiteside as backup and actually sacrifice both offense and defense on days Buster’s off or playing first is downright depressing.

When Bochy was going with Stewart most of the time down the stretch and when the Giants nontendered Whiteside, I thought sense had finally prevailed. What’s next, a one-year deal for O-Cab?

CB

Are you kidding me? Whiteside was absolute terrible last season on both sides of the ball. Why bring him back? Chris Stewart and Hector Sanchez have to be front runners over him anyways. Oh well, Whiteside better not see any PT and he is coming off elbow surgery as well, right

CB

Giants are definitely not making any headlines with these signings. We better lockup Lincecum and Cain if we are conserving money with these low ball deals and bottom of the barrell type players.

JC

JUst read on MLBTraderumors that Vizquel wants to play in 2012 and if Giants offered him a one year contract, he would go now with them. Honestly, as much as I liked Vizquel, he is 42 or 43 and he isn’t much of an offensive threat these days and why waste money on another old and not so much of an offensive shortstop. Just like this Whiteside re-signing with us, guy was absolute horrendous last year and absolutely is the worst Giants hitter I have ever seen.

I would have been shocked to not see some Eli bashing on here by now. All in all, pretty tame responses so far.

The Whiteside deal is an odd one though. It was pretty clear that Stewart was a better backup by the end of last season, and if it were me the backup in ’12 would be Hector.

I know the pitching staff loves Eli, maybe this move is just to placate the thoroughbreds?

Lefty

Dinero,

Yeah, what you said, including the part about Hector.

As for the thoroughbreds, shouldn’t they be happy they’re getting Buster back? And I’m pretty sure our leading thoroughbred–Lincecum–wants no part of throwing to Whiteside. Stewart was his personal catcher from June on, and on the one start where Stewart couldn’t go, Hector caught Timmy.

I think Sabean’s freaked out about what happened last year and figures you can’t have too much insurance for an emergency. Or maybe until Buster actually proves to be healthy and effective, he doesn’t want to burn bridges with a guy who knows the pitching staff. I guess I can understand that, but I do not want Whiteside on the roster starting several days a week!

JD4SF

I think we all agree that we all have the right to express an opinion. And “others” also have rights we need to consider.

With that thought in mind, please give very serious consideration to this OT video, speaking for those who are NOT speaking up for themselves.

agreed. I like Whitey, he seems like a good guy, I wish him the best…but I’m not jumping for joy at the idea of him being behind the plate 40+ games next year.

JD4SF

Lefty says:
December 17th, 2011 at 9:06 pm
181..
re: Whiteside
I think Sabean’s freaked out about what happened last year and figures you can’t have too much insurance for an emergency. Or maybe until Buster actually proves to be healthy and effective, he doesn’t want to burn bridges with a guy who knows the pitching staff.
=======

I think your’re correct. Contingency Plan C, likely as very affordable back-up back-up insurance. Yesterday’s rumor indicated minor league contract so I suspect the C order would be Buster, Stewart / HSanchez, then Eli Whiteside only if needed.

Even though he isn’t a wizard at C or as a batter, he is a known entity. The pitcher and rest of the returning TEAM will remember Eli standing his ground, defending the plate against a charging runner, and standing between an irate hit batter and the Giants’ pitcher. That earned him good will as a TEAM player.

Maybe in the next couple of months, Eli will do some serious conditioning and get some batting coaching so he is a stronger contributor.

Catcher Contingency Plan C. I’m not surprised. And I suspect Eli was very affordable.

JD4SF

Mavo says:
December 17th, 2011 at 7:39 pm
175..
As an old catcher myself […] So I KNOW about “macho” … and I STILL feel they need to change the rules to protect catchers and runners at home plate.
=============

I think the Whiteside 600K signing was just a formality of 2010 respect. I can’t explain it completely but don’t look for Eli to make the big league roster versus Stewart and or Sanchez down the road. Google Whitesides early baseball days and you will see how simple of a person he happens to be.

I don’t think there is anything to worry about, or to waste energy over.

It happened and that particular play is done, gone, finished. If there is another view point that ever gains awareness it will be initiated by the Players-Union. Coaches and MLB administrators would prefer it to just go away. That has been Selig’s MO with the All Star Game Tie, The A’s moving to SJ, The Steroids Era and more recently the Braun situation.

Posey wants to catch. Posey will catch. Baseball will go on. Life will survive.

cameron datzker

Joe Torre can’t motivate players and feel asleep at the wheel when The Dodgers self destructed. Torre is a typical Baseball cronnie.

pacman68

I go away for a whole day and come back to the Giants sign Eli Whiteside. Someone pass the barf bag cause this plane is going down.

Mavo

I agree with Clutchup about Whiteside … this is just a courtesy signing to help Eli out in AAA this year. All the BS and negative comments on here are I guess par for the course.

al oha

Eli’s highlight play of the year was ………………………………..

the TACKLE of Placido Polanco, who ran in from 2nd base to join the brawl that the Flyin’ Hawaiian, Shane Victorino was perpetuating as he was acting like a tough guy.

Whiteside’s habit of backhanding pitches in the dirt with runners on base was driving me nuts. I spent two years as a baseball coach, convincing a converted SS, who was our best catcher, that what scouts and baseball insiders wanted to see, was a catcher who stopped a ball in the dirt 100% of the time using his chest protector and glove by “snuffing it” and not allowing the runner to advance, than to see a catcher “glove” the ball 75% of the time by reaching for it. He became an All State H.S. Catcher and led Kamehameha H.S. to the State Championship.

Eli would have been the second string catcher on that H.S. team. And I’m talking about the Eli of last season.

Mavo:
Macho is a Spanish gender noun that means:
M A L E
IT IS not SYNONYMOUS WITH MASCULINITY MUCH LESS GALLANTRY, GOT IT?
A LOT OF YOU ANGLOS ABUSE THE WORD NOT KNOWING WHAT THE HELL YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
ONE MORE DAMN TIME:
MACHO MEANS MALE, SABE? CAPITO? GRINGOS DO YOU COMPRENDE?

Mavo says:
December 18th, 2011 at 12:56 am
189..
I agree with Clutchup about Whiteside … this is just a courtesy signing to help Eli out in AAA this year.
=========

I agree too, just didn’t make it very clear in my prior post.

Eli may not be a top notch catcher or hitter against major league pitching, but seems to be a great TEAM member. I doubt Contingency Plan C is expected to be activated. The contract is more of a AAA level but still says thank you to Eli while also putting him in as a buffer C so when HSanchez moves up there is less juggling of other farm team catchers who may / may not be ready to move up yet.

My reference to him getting in better condition to play C more regularly and working on his batting to be a better contributor was in reference to AAA time. I’m hoping he can do well there, and not get the fan flak he got with the 2011 Giants in a situation far beyond his control.

If he was a solid starting C he wouldn’t have been a 2nd C behind Buster with minimal playing time. When so much responsibility and playing time unexpectedly fell on his shoulders, I respect that Eli did the best he could, stayed positive, and contributed as a TEAM member.

I think I write with more clarity later at night. ;-/

al oha

Ok, Merry Christmas Eli.

Now start planning for a new career.

JD4SF

For those requiring clarification of terminology used on this blog:

dictionary.com
ma·cho [mah-choh]
adjective
1. having or characterized by qualities considered manly, especially when manifested in an assertive, self-conscious, or dominating way.
2. having a strong or exaggerated sense of power or the right to dominate.

World English Dictionary
macho (ˈmætʃəʊ)
— adj
1. denoting or exhibiting pride in characteristics believed to be typically masculine, such as physical strength, sexual appetite, etc

To Yes Sir I’d recommend learning the vernacular used in THIS country before accusing me of mis-using macho! What a friggin’ idiot this guy is!!

Mavo

Oh and I am sure Yes Sir will have to look up vernacular … hopefully he will not confuse it with some Spanish meaning that will get his panties in a wad again!!

Jstreet

Thought for the day, directed at Yes Sir: If you don’t get up on a high horse, you won’t have far to fall.

In Spanish, such a person is often called a “sinverguenza,” literally translated “without shame.” it is used as a perforative and could fairly describe this new(?) poster.

In other words, lighten up, Sir. My Dad used to sing a nice little ditty on his ukelele, “yes sir, that’s my baby. No sir, I don’t mean maybe. Yes sir, that’s my baby now.” Very catchy, and far more entertaining than an all caps Spanish lesson.

Jstreet

The word I meant in the previous was “perjorative”

Lefty

If all goes well, a year from now, neither Stewart nor Whiteside will be in the mix:

*Buster will be fully recovered and playing well
*Hector will be seasoned enough to stay at the ML level
*Joseph will be headed for AAA and Susac for AA.

In fact, depending on how things go, Hector or Joseph could be a trade chip…

Foothills Ryan

perforative –> perjorative–> pejorative. Now it’s fixed.

Seems to me that inking Whiteside to a 600K Major League contract is just throwing money around. If Stewart and Sanchez need more insurance, I thought guys like Jackson Williams and Johnny Monell were capable of filling that role without the financial commitment. This organization must have money to burn. Roll it up and smoke it or invest it in a 4th string catcher (lefty relievers withstanding).

Yes Sir is another handle for Sargento, aka 1dkrstr and many other ridiculous handles. In the past this person hated on many people here, especially The Wisdom Cow who as we all know is one of the knowledgeable, passionate yet pragmatic folks that make up the core of this blog.

Re Whiteside, I have to second what most others are saying or thinking. Eli is a great guy, has a good rapport with our pitchers and will always be part of the World Series Championship team.

All that being said, it makes no sense to sign him to any contract. Stewart proved to be the much better option of two defensive oriented/light hitting catchers, and if we’re going to give a roster spot to one of them, I think Stewart is the logical choice.

Given our minor league depth at catcher the plan for 2012 should be to provide Sanchez every opportunity to take the backup position while concurrently grooming Joseph and Susac for accelerated advancement through the system.

Lefty

Totalfan: Yeah, sigh…I see that the powers-that-be feel differently, and I’m just a fan, not an expert, but I really would like to see Hector’s bat on that roster ASAP–especially if Posey is going to play 1B several days a week. They can pair Hector carefully with pitchers who feel most comfortable with him while he’s learning (Zito and Lincecum so far).

Even in the best-case scenarios, the Giants are going to be offensively challenged, and it seems a shame to give a roster spot to someone who gives you only defense (Stewart) when Hector could be giving you four valuable ABs on days he starts and pinch-hitting from either side on days he doesn’t. Since they’ve decided to go with the defensive option at SS in Crawford (and I’m glad they did), a second dead spot in the lineup seems like a luxury they just can’t afford.

I understand that Hector is very young–just turned 22–and can benefit from more experience in AAA, and Tommy Joseph is even younger. Still…

Foothills Ryan

But is Yes Sir/Sargento TitoMac ? It’s a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma. Many forms this one has taken. None of them all that great. Anybody remember C30BB33 (something like that) ? Same person, right?

To those who are worried about the Giant’s offense, you need to pause a moment and consider that they need to win 8-10 more games than last year, they were 8 games out not 30+ out like the Marlins. That works out, given the pitching staff continues to perform, about 0.35 more runs per game, on average over the season. If they score the same number they did in 2010, a middling ofensive year, and pitch like last year, they win 96-100 games. It would be nice to have Superman in the house, but he was just convicted of perjury.

So how many days to pitchers and catchers report?

Jstreet

Thank you, Foothill. I knew I was a little off when my auto speller kept insisting on perforating my verbiage. And I was too lazy too find out why.

See? This forum IS informative. While I am at it, thanks too for your concise comments. I don’t always agree, but they’re always on target. And you have a sense of humor that is always noted.

Jstreet

And thank you to TF62, another poster whose words I appreciate. With that tipoff, I’ll just ignore the all cap ramblings of such personas.

Meanwhile, i’ll pick myself up and dust myself off from my short fall – off my hobby horse.

Top of the season to all. I’d rather it were the Top if the First.

Lefty

Foothills: As with “Visitor” yesterday, “Yes Sir” is too linguistically accurate to be Bilsy IMO.

To all: I wish people could just talk about baseball without feeling the need to insult others. But then, I’m not macho. In any sense of the word.

Channel: Mr. Lefty is a lawyer, and he’d point out the Superman #25 was NOT convicted of perjury. In fact, he was acquitted of perjury but was convicted of “obstructing justice” by being “evasive.” As a non-lawyer, I’m guessing the distinction is that perjury involves telling an out-and-out lie in court or to a grand jury while obstruction involves avoiding a direct and clear answer to a question–The difference between “telling a lie” and “avoiding telling the truth.”

Some would call that a distinction without a difference, but Mr. Lefty thinks it’s a legitimate enough difference to give Superman a good chance of overturning his conviction on appeal.

We’ve made great strides “on here” with the SJMerc. going to bat versus the one who shall not be named, why not leave the new version alone; In some ways “he” feels simpatico with the one who is not here (right now) – thus we knew one or two copy-cats would procreate in this manner.

Lefty, I have a somewhat unpopular POV about “Superman”. In order to preserve the atmosphere of comity here, I’ll avoid my list of perjorative adjectives I would apply to that ‘rot’ in baseball’s history. Needless to say I don’t suscribe to the ethical relativism most frequently applied to him, to whit “they all did it”. As to perjury or obstructing justice, the only miscarrage here is he isn’t doing at least a few months in Folsom to contemplate events in his life. The only thing I find more hideous than Bonds glorifying at home plate when he broke the record, is that scumbag McGwire celebrating in front of the Maris family.

It’s all water under the bridge now, so there is little point in relitigating the ethical, not legal issues. What’s done is done, but I will say, if he ever steps back in a Giant’s clubhouse in an official capacity, without publically owning up to what he did at least, I’m done as a Giants fan.

Jstreet

Clutch, that is a reasoned two cents worth. I knew something was different here, and for the better. So I’ll not rock the surfboard I’m standing on.

Foothills Ryan

Is Mr. Lefty a “Righty” ?

Foothills Ryan

I’m no juris-prudent, but getting sentenced for Evasiveness seems like B.S. to me. Either you perjured yourself or you didn’t. You were in contempt of the court or you weren’t. You obstructed justice or you were a faithful participant of the proceedings.

I also think there’s plenty of reason to be in contempt of the court. Sometimes I’m in contempt of members of the supreme court. It’s the politics and its departure from ideals.

Foothills Ryan

The Padres are having themselves a nice little offseason down there. They won’t compete but it should be exciting having fueled up the prospect machine.

Keep’n It Real

ClutchUp @ JustMy2cents (since times seem to be jacked up):

Latest troll is not the same as he who shall not be named. Latest troll appeared on a few posts back and was portraying similar behavior; specifically in the arena of heritage. That said, it was a different approach (more ignorant…if you can believe that) and no 300pm meltdown.

OK…back to your regularly scheduled baseball conversation…

Yes Sir

MAVO LOUD MOUTH DO YOU WANT THE PANTIES RAMMED DOWN YOUR BLIPPING THROAT?
LIKE I SAID YOU KNOW IT ALL BLIPPING ANGLOS YOU ABUS ETHE WORD MACHO. YOU BUTCHER THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE AND HAVE THE RIDICULOUS BUFFOONISH AUDACITY TO INVADE THE SPANISH LANGUAGE.
FOOTHILL IDIOT COJE TU LENGUA I METETELA DENTRO DE TU CULO.

al oha

I’d have BLB back as the HITTING INSTRUCTOR in a nanosecond.

Few in the history of baseball know as much as he does about swing mechanics, balance, knowing his strike zone, knowing the umpires strike zone, the importance of laying off pitches out of zones according to count, not having to guess but making a pitcher come to your zone, taking a walk ANYTIME, OBP, expanding his zone, the importance of being able to wait and then having a quick bat (the reason he choked up on the bat), generating power while choking up on the bat, the use of leverage and power in his legs, etc, etc.

His willingness to share these “secrets” and having the players listen out of respect, is an opportunity that the Giants should take advantage of. Having a cavalier attitude towards him because of a personal perceived conception and dislike of his past personality is blocking possibly the greatest contributions any past Giant could impart on the present Giants.

The Giants should bring him back and wish Hensley “bon voyage” so he can prepare for his trip to outer space.

al oha

Macho Libre?

Yes Sir

You arrogant know it ALL Anglos failed to mention that the exaggerated masculinity BS was adopted(dictionary.reference.com/browse/macho). Take time to research the damn word etymology. You average Anglos think you know it ALL. You hardly know English and foolishly pretend to speak and know Spanish=MIERDA.
Mavo: “bravo, macho”=mierda!

Yes Sir

223=mierda

al oha

Si senor,

Mierda del toro.

Yes Sir

Foothills jerk you are a liberal know it ALL idiot-go kiss obahblah and pelosi.

Yes Sir

225:
señor>idiota

al oha

Conflicted much?

Take two chill pills and call back tomorrow morning.

Yes Sir

228:
You are the”conflicted” idiotic Anglo. Are you qualified to prescribe BS?

al oha

On second thought, no need to call back.

totalfan62

Clutch: make it four cents, as I’m with you on this one. I was reluctant to step across the line (do not feed the trolls), but I believed the stench of previous racist/hate driven vitriol should be identified. If the problem persists we can seek eradication options.

Yes Sir

230:
The better thought is your for you to shut your damn mouth. In Spanish:
callate. Comprendes pn-*jo?

Yes Sir

231:
What is the racist remark you idiot? If you don’t know what we are talking about: butt out, MORON, OK STUPID ANGLO?

Sarge has surfaced, fully medicated. It will wear off, they will deny him access to his favorite Kinko’s terminal, and he will decompensate, chin drivel and all.

Yes Sir

234:
Maybe you need medication in your ugly face. You betrayed the Latino community with your Anglo affinity.

Yes Sir

channel face:
.No jodas conmigo, OK?

Yes Sir

channel face:
Tu eres un cobarde y un come mierda.

Lefty

Foothills @ 11:32/34

Mr. Lefty is right-handed but not right-wing, if that answers your question.

And yes, what you said about Superman was Mr. Lefty’s point exactly: Either he’s innocent of perjury/obstruction or guilty of both, but how can he logically be guilty of one but not the other? This was just his legal analysis, not necessarily his personal opinion about what should happen to #25.

Peter

#221 +1, I’d love to see Bonds hanging around as a special instructor. Hopefully he can transition into the same player-emeritus role of Mays (and McCovey). An inarguable top five player of all time passing the torch to another.

Yes Sir

Dinero:
#26:
You’re a biased, sentimental and homer idiot. What is Cousins or any other runner interfering with? The runner has the right to slide in any way moron. Like I said before if the runner is preventing the catcher from making a throw you have an argument. In a straight slide ALL bets are OFF and everything else is a fair game. That is called baseball and it will remain that way.
Like they say in football after a replay the RULING on the filed stands:
TAKE THAT>END OF THE STORY.

Jstreet

Channel, I completely respect your acumen as a longtime Giants fan. You comment well and often. It doesn’t sound like all the water is completely under your bridge. Well, it is under it, but there is still a bit of a log jam downstream. I hope you’ll reconsider being finished with the Giants, if he somehow becomes a part of the team again, in an official capacity. Your input is valued here, and we are both too old to harbor much bitterness. And we’re old enough to know that such thinking is harmful to our health.

That said, I agree with your thoughts on relative morality, or whatever one might call it. We are disappointed that our true heroes are seemingly dishonored. But that’s missing a point: our heroes’ great feats are never tarnished by the actions of others.
Willie, and Hank, Mickey, et al; their stars continue to shine. We can remember their accomplishments and at the same time completely let go of our resentments.

I have no ‘hate’ for Bonds, just for what he did, and what he ‘deposited’ in the river. If I were him, I’d write a book as a matter on contrition, and tell the truth about what happened, name names and everything. What’s he going to do, tarnish his reputation? It’s like you tell your kids, fess up to your mistakes as best you can, and take your medicine.

By the way, I don’t have any baseball ‘heros’, just men who’s play, between the lines, I admire. Baseball is, afterall, a game, in the greater scheme of things. Maybe the best game ever played, but still, only a game.

ClutchUp

channelclemente says: December 18th, 2011 at 11:22 am …but I will say, if he ever steps back in a Giant’s clubhouse in an official capacity, without publically owning up to what he did at least, I’m done as a Giants fan.

—CC: You are way to engrained to consider altering your fan-ship based on your statement.

As a fellow San Carlan Calif, it is clear that I am biased, but MLB/Selig were complicit in allowing the McGwire/Sosa Love affair that supposedly brought fans back to the game. I mean, come on, we went one year without a World Series and then Sir Bud allowed the Exhibition Game known as the Allstar Game to be declared a tie.

Barry did MANY things wrong. He was surly to all people not in his baseball circle of friends. His Father and his Father’s best friend/golfing buddy + Willie (does he need a last name) implored Barry to become more “user friendly”. Mother Pat (Patricia) worked at a Wedding Dress Store in San Carlos and was well respected, yet she failed to get Barry to be less antagonistic.

Just know that being an SFG fan for you (CC) should not be connected to some full/half admission by 25, something his present character may not allow.

Channel face:
Your street English stinks:
“I have no ‘hate’ for Bonds”, you should hate that barbaric English=BRUTO!

ClutchUp

JD4SF says: December 18th, 2011 at 1:59 am Mavo says:December 18th, 2011 at 12:56 am189..I agree with Clutchup about Whiteside … this is just a courtesy signing to help Eli out in AAA this year.

I agree JD and Mav-0:

It really doesn’t even matter what we as fans think; His teammates and the clubhouse culture think alot of him as apparently does the FO. Like I said yesterday, Whiteside is a different ‘cat’. Heck there were some fans-non-fans here last year that complained about his silver-tips, but let it be know Eli’s hair was like that for along time, turning grey in HS. Similar to Belt, Bumgarner and Posey – married his HS sweetheart Amy and together named their first born Whittington (Whit) Jackson Whiteside. Peter Brady=Brady Bunch=Cousins. Grew up in Albany, Miss. a town of 8,000, with no booze allowed (Dry)

Granted Eli is not a good catcher by MANY standards, but somehow his character is what matters to his mates and bosses. He is more likely to make the 175K than the 600K. It’s not like it’s his fault that the contract was offered his way… He will be a baseball lifer in some way, fashion or form…HS/College Instructor etc. He is pretty humble and knows where he stands. Like al oha stated, Eli’s propensity for back-handing pitches will no longer be tolerated…

Clutchface:
Character does NOT throw runners out NOR block pitches on the dirt, DUH? That’s a stupid criteria to pay K $$$ to a player, DUH?
Stick to your day job, your accounting managing credentials stink, DUH?
DUH?

ClutchUp

Keep’n It Real says: December 18th, 2011 at 12:00 pm ClutchUp @ JustMy2cents (since times seem to be jacked up):Latest troll is not the same as he who shall not be named. Latest troll appeared on a few posts back and was portraying similar behavior; specifically in the arena of heritage. That said, it was a different approach (more ignorant…if you can believe that) and no 300pm meltdown.OK…back to your regularly scheduled baseball conversation…

KIR: Exactly and I wasn’t intimating ‘he’ was. I know who it is, as I am sure you’ll gather when you re-read what I said. YS is just being “in-one” with the down-trodden TM. Has come to TM’s aid if you will. Nothing more, nothing less. YS, Srgnto, Rkstr, Rkstr1, TM=all come here for their same agenda …

I don’t really care what he does outside baseball, he owes the game that made him an apology. Not Selig, not ownership, the game. Many a ball player was an unmitigated ass, Enos Slaughter for spiking Jackie Robinson rounding the bases out of racist spite as an example, but Bonds single handedly introduced the asterix as a baseball term. Maybe a trip to the next HOF ceremony would be a good venue to give it a ride. Tell me any other role in life he could have played that would have earned him that notoriety and $188+MM, he owes this game almost everything he has.

On a more friendly subject, I think keeping Whiteside around was smart. He handles pitchers well. He’s the archtypical Crash Davis in Fresno. He knows what major league pitchers expect, and maybe he can stop Sanchez from inducing seizures in an unsuspecting pitcher or 2B with that glove flapping habit of his.

ClutchUp

Stay the Course Oh Real Fans: The New antagonists have been here before and NOW and will return if we allow.

Be it Rican Man…
Sargento
Rkstr
Rkstr1
deadfish…
politico loco… @ September 11th, 2011 at 9:10 am
YOU know most of the rest, it’s just a wallowing desire to wallow…

“They” obviously have NOT read Nate’sFanMom’s Hall of Fame post at December 17th, 2011 at 11:51 am because NFM “said it all”

Take a gander back at Aug 18th/2011 and you will see what “we” mean.
(or Sept. 10th, 2011

Can’t say that I didn’t try thus I still disagree, that you would STOP being a FAN of a T.E.A.M because of one person. I coaches Ty Cobbs great great grandson at Sacred Heart Prep and did not take it out on the baseball team nor young Ty. Mr. Cobb softened before his death but he was still a racist and attempted to maim players as he slid in to bases/home plate.

I never asked you to like 25; A lot of self proclaimed Super Stars have hot buttons and on and off the field behavior that is despicable. They sometimes see the light during their last several laps around the game of life. Bill Russell was thought to be an a$$ by many, Teddy Ballgame the same way. Bonds has people who love him and those that hate him. There is no grey area. You’re entitled.

Yes Sir

Wow channel face is a catching moronic expert like his bed partner Mavo.

ClutchUp

Michael Savage….hahahaha…

Jstreet

Channel, nobody asked me, but my thought is that the asterisk was brought to us by the 162 game season, not by Barry. Change skews everything.

What you’re saying reminds me of a conversation with a close friend when he refused to share a glass of wine with me, based on his perception of the (corrupt) family which produced the brand. The wine was quite good, but he couldn’t bow to taste it. My thought then and now is that this viewpoint would have some validity if only he had done a background check on every winery represented in his cellar. If not…
The same can be said of your inability to get past this issue. To me, you’d have to check up on the behavior of every player that you pay any attention to. That would take a lot of time. You were on the right track when you spoke of the water under the bridge. Is that bridge a river or a dam?

Yes Sir

254/clutchface:
Explain your post second fuzzy sentence; are you infected with channelfaceitis?

TheCity

CC – think you’re making the mistake that too many outside the Bay Area make – Bonds did nothing ‘singlehandedly’ regarding steroids. He had plenty of company in the form of other players, and there were plenty of team personnel and execs looking the other way at the whole steroids thing. The feds wanted Bonds to be a poster boy, a bad seed to blame everything on. That’s just ridiculous. He was one of the best players without taking steroids and one of the best taking them. That’s why he gets the publicity. If he owes an apology, so do a lot of other people.

I neither like or dislike Bonds. I suppose his life and career remind me most of a Greek tragedy than anything else. Don’t you see what embracing Bonds says about a team and it’s heart if you welcome Bonds back into the fold without him making a clean breast of it. At the very least Bonds goes into AT&T and shows a litlte or maybe a lot courage and apologizes for his ‘mistake’ at home plate. He was more than willing to accept all that public adulation when he broke the record, knowing full well how he did it, now pay the piper. As you say, I’m entitled.

comeon, on a rational level, I could care less what happens to Bonds. In a world where anyone considers the likes of Gingrich as a Presidential candidate, I have to admit Bonds issues decend to the level of trivia. Hell, I’m such a reactionary, I’d void the A’s WS win because of McGwire, Canseco, and the rest of that ‘juiced’ crew, if it were my call. Maybe we can even get Selig flogged for his perversion of Vincient and Giamatti vision of baseball.

Maybe it’s wrong to call it water under the bridge, rather a freshly flushed toilet, to retain the ambiance of what Bonds did. In either case it’s a historical event, of little impact today.

al oha says: December 18th, 2011 at 1:25 am He became an All State H.S. Catcher and led Kamehameha H.S. to the State Championship.

*******
@ al oha: Our Summer Club had our sites set on coming over there in 2002 to play some of Corey Ishigo’s, Eric Kadooka’s, and Travis Teshima’s Summer Teams, but 9/11 threw travel plans into a monkey wrench and we started attending Omaha’s CWS instead.

Did “your Kamehameha Catcher” later play College ball? I hope so 😉

ClutchUp

channelclemente says: December 18th, 2011 at 3:38 pm

Here is the trouble with your take on Bonds: In his own ingratiating way he is liable to apologize in Bonds-speak, and if I read your correctly here the last several seasons, that may not be good enough.

You “author” what you would want him to say/admit and I will tell you if he will ever say what you write down….

Lefty

Clutch,

I was just in Omaha in October to give a talk at the university there, and they drove me by where the CWS is played. When they found out I’m into baseball, they were urging me to come back (and even showed me the hotels nearby!). Fun time, I’m thinking?

ClutchUp

CC:

The City is correct regarding the Feds wanting BLB to be a poster boy aka THEIR poster boy. Prosecutor Jeff Novitky hung around the Gym up/down the street from BALCO until BLB would drive off. Novitsky would then enter the gym and smooze with Santiago, Bobby Chestelleha, Rios and many others. Novitsky had a H-On for BLM and Greg Anderson that he would go dumpster diving at the garbage area of the apartment complex that Anderson resided at. The Feds definately did not treat Sheffield, Giambi and others like they did BLM, thus The Citys reference to Poster Boy @ 3:36 pm.

Lefty says: December 18th, 2011 at 4:06 pm Clutch,I was just in Omaha in October to give a talk at the university there, and they drove me by where the CWS is played. When they found out I’m into baseball, they were urging me to come back (and even showed me the hotels nearby!). Fun time, I’m thinking?

Lefty: Most of the fun…was had at the former Stadium. Rosenblatt stadium was deemed inadequate by then Omaha’s mayor. The same mayor was later indicted for various errr….items. The new CWS stadium is NOW near land OWNED by this EX Mayor. Prior to that the depressed Neighborhood around Rosenblatt stadium for 30 years parked ours and everyones rental cars on their front and back lawns. Some residents brought us inside to show us pictures of their sons/daughters that they eventually put through college by collecting 10-20 dollars per car X 30 years. The OLD neighbor in and around Rosenblatt should have a MOVIE made about it. There is a rumor that some old time CWS attendees still park there and take a shuddle.

Creighton University gets to USE the new complex. (Corporate, Bells and Whistles) I heard the new Park had zero shade 24/7. At the old site they preserved a section of the Field.

The CWS is a tremendous experience. I could not bare to go year ONE of the new Complex!

Bonds, Mavo and macho fecal garbage and now Omaha, really? Whp gives a blip about Omaha?

Yes Sir

Bonds, Mavo and macho fecal garbage and now Omaha, really? Who gives a blip/rat’s rear about Omaha?

totalfan62

I think that all things considered the Giants should close the door on the Bonds era and move forward.

No doubt he was not the only cheater. No doubt that baseball’s senior leadership looked the other way and allowed the PED era to flourish. Also no doubt that Barry Bonds was one of the best players of his generation and in all of Giants history, with and without PEDs.

All that being said, let’s look forward and build our future with the infrastructure we have now. There will likely be a few players who could greatly benefit from one-to-one coaching from BLB, but not as an official employee of the Giants.

totalfan62

Heads up, Extra Baggers: don’t take the bait.

Scroll past the nonsense and enjoy the best of what is offered here.

Yes Sir

272/total fecal garbage:
Come-on bring it on regarding BB? I’ll go fifteen rounds of BB with you or anybody here. Bring it on boy.

Jstreet

Channel, I would never mistake you for a reactionary. You are a man with very well defined viewpoints. I respect that.

I probably am on your side where Bud and all the others “in charge” are concerned.
DH, 162 games, tied games, no doubleheaders, blackouts, too many teams and now playoffs, I’ve got plenty of things to most likely agree with you on. It’s a wonder it’s still a cool game. But I won’t get too bunched up over players disrespecting the game by being complicit in the devious schemes of those “in charge.” That list would be too long to elicit here but would start with Selig and right on down through the entire industry of professional, collegiate and even high school sports. The win for the money, win at all costs is what spawns this steriod fueled insanity. That it gets poster-boyed, for lack of a better term onto the most visible participant is somewhat predictable.
Tell you what, when Barry issues his apology, AND you get the mass apologies from the long, long list of participants, then I’ll think that what you’re asking makes sense.

ClutchUp

And to quote Jim Harbaugh:

WHO CARE ABOUT December 18th, 2011 at 4:37 pm

NOBODY….

heheheheh

idtsrekshtr says: April 23rd, 2011 at 12:00 am
MEDIOCRITY.

Jstreet

It has been revealed that ClutchUp has a staff of dozens and many high powered computers at his disposal. This is how he always manages to have the inside track on any subject baseball related. No matter, he is doing a he’ll of a job.

Of course, that rumour about the staff, I just made it up. But sometimes it seems that way. I can almost see why some consider you a know-it-all. Myself, I consider you a true believer (in baseball) and am grateful that you choose to share your knowledge here. A shame, my iPad wouldn’t access the video re: CWS. I’ll look at it on my wife’s computer. Keep em coming.

Plus, you don’t come across as a Know It All. They are always a real bore.

Yes Sir

clutchface:
Defecate on yourself idiot.

JD4SF

On the Bonds issue …
I’m guessing there is enough controversy surrounding him – right or wrong that he has become the PED poster boy – that the Giants would choose to not hire him as an employee. The advantage of having his knowledge would likely be outweighed by the ensuing flak.

A less controversial compromise might be for Bonds to set up as a consultant and the Giants periodially hire him to provide some training. This way the Giants can tap the knowledge yet Bonds is not a controversial Giants employee.

ClutchUp

Street of J 😉

I prefer to listen to Sat/Sunday games via radio rather than be in front of a TV. Sometimes I am here WAY WAY WAY too much however such addictions are rather harmless compared to __________. Bills are paid and shopping is done. NO SF 49ers until Mon Night.

“I know alot about a little”, but “I don’t know a little about alot”. Love Hoops, FBall, but lack the infinite wisdom to comment about hockey/soccer. Love HS/College Sports. Love the “games within the games”. Still think I am a fan of good baseball first (1) and (1A) a long long fan of all things SF Giants, regardless of how poor they play, my only concern is Team commraderie, Team Chemistry, How well they (try) to play together and How Smart They Play Together. Competition being what it is due to there always being an Opposition – Wins and Losses are not controllable unless its the Black Sox Scandal… A player cannot control getting a hit; He can control his pitch selection and he can control “putting a good swing on it”…

Currently my biggest thrill is reading the MamaBear Contingent’s Posts:
Napacat – Lefty – Shellfish – Primetimedonna – JD4SF and NatesFanMom are surely in A League of Their Own, and we’re / I am excited they are here to add so many, insights, ‘wisdom’, balanced-approaches and last but not least: Common Sense.

Anti-Lasorda

Resign Whiteside? Why?

Rollins could have been yours for $33M for 3yrs. Am I the only one who is thinking that would have been a good sign on those terms?

Prior to Spring Training 2011, Barry was very visable on side fields and in cages (Sandoval)

During the Season Barry’s ATT Clubhouse chat with about a dozen players was well documented…

The SFG’s legal team of Jack Bair, Elizabeth Murphy and Jennifer Freitas are some of the best in the business.

Larry Baer and Bonds have a good relationship. He/They know when Barry is coming to ATT and He knows when and if THEY feel he should be “around”.

Until ALL the legal issues are decided, cautious is the key word.

ClutchUp

Anti-Lasorda says: December 18th, 2011 at 5:29 pm

—Welcome Stranger. Yes agreed on the Affeldt contract / Rollins.

Doubtful Whiteside and Rollins are related.

Whitesides salary in Fresno is 175K. Doubtful he is 28’s backup. It will be Stewart or eventually Sanchez.

ClutchUp

Oakland
Raiders
Hue Jackson
Penalties

To paraphrase Superbowl Coach Tom Flores: Unbelievable.

—And well deserved…

Tommy Brady/Catholic … he kneels on TWO knees…. Sorry Timmy 😉

JD4SF

ClutchUp says:
December 18th, 2011 at 5:29 pm
He/They know when Barry is coming to ATT and He knows when and if THEY feel he should be “around”.
Until ALL the legal issues are decided, cautious is the key word.
============

Cautious, indeed.

Regardless of legal issues resolution, I suspect there would be some fan flak for Bonds to be officially on the Giants’ payroll again. A reminder of a controversial period that is more comfortably left in the past. But few would consider it somehow wrong for the Giants to take avantage of his knowledge if it is provided in a non-Giants capacity. Low key as opposed to in your face. Win-Win

ClutchUp

@ JD4SF – Low key as opposed to in your face. Win-Win.

Agreed +++++++++++++++++

totalfan62

I guess I’m in the minority on Rollins. I think three years of $10 million plus is too much invested in a SS whose best years are definitely behind him.

Is there something left in the tank? Absolutely, but I don’t think three years and I’m weary of being saddled with Huff/Rowand type contracts when younger/less expensive players provide a viable option.

ClutchUp, I’m right with you on the Mama Bears. Every post is cogent, specific and succint. Every post by every MB. Ladies, you rock!

“Yelling doesn’t get your point across, it only makes it louder.”
― Grant Hill

JD4SF

totalfan62 says:
December 18th, 2011 at 5:58 pm
ClutchUp, I’m right with you on the Mama Bears. Every post is cogent, specific and succint.
==========

Succinct???
I’ve never been accused of that before! 😉

I think the blog has some great contributors, not gender-specific. Lots of opinions, most of them shared clearly and respecting the opinions others. A rather diverse group, and many with substantial knowledge to share. Well worth reading the wealth of information posted here!

jstreet

Clutch, good stuff. Of course I was kidding a bit with my previous post. Your focus is remarkable.

Agree re: MamaBears. Way too much common sense for a sports blog. We’re indeed lucky they pick this gin joint to drop into. JD4SF, leave it to you to propose a doable solution to this topic. The BB25 Consult Company sounds like a pretty solid idea.

Peter

IMO, Bonds doesn’t need to apologize to anyone. PEDs, at the time he was accused of taking them, was not against the rules. And, if all he took was Balco’s designer steroid then that wasn’t necessarily illegal, since that specific molecular structure was not explicitly listed as a schedule III drug at the time.

Of course Barry did fail an amphetamine test once, the first year they were banned, but I’m guessing most here don’t hold them against him since nearly every player took them at some point in their careers – even Hank Aaron admitted to it.

Foothills Ryan

I thought the Giants moved on from Bonds rather well. Hello World Series Champions! I’m glad I can say I saw him hit it out of the ballpark a few times. I saw HRs # 500 and 600 at the phone booth. Watching (on the tube mostly) the Lincecum, Sandovals and Poseys of the new era are just as much a “thrill”. Pretty sure this pun is intended.

Lefty,

But does Mr. Lefty switch hit ?

—

Coincidence that Yes Sir and Tito Mac are never in the room at the same time ???

Foothills Ryan

Watching (on the tube mostly) the Lincecum, Sandovals and Poseys of the new era just as much a “thrill”.

Foothills Ryan

I’m not that CPU/code smart…

Watching (on the tube mostly) the Lincecum, Sandovals and Poseys of the new era is just as much a “thrill”.

Foothills Ryan

oh boy…

is just as much a thrill

Foothills Ryan

alright, how to you do the stop code for a bold or italic or strikethrough ?

JD4SF

On Bonds as a consultant …

My experience as a [mostly retired] independent consultant is you are often saying the same thing as folks in-house, but because you are THE Outside Consultant and considered a subject matter expert … sudddenly folks are more likely to listen and more likely to move in that direction. Sometimes you’re sugggesting something that wasn’t on the radar, but often all the outside consultant is doing is reinforcing good internal ideas that haven’t been taken seriously.

From that perspective, if Bonds was there daily his message isn’t as likely to be given the same value as when he shows up periodically to share knowledge and provide some guidance. So in the long term having Bonds as a consultant I believe would be more effective and have more impact.

For example, the batting coach says X daily. Bonds shows up and tells you pretty much the same thing, and you now have 2 professionals with a similar message. That reinforcement might be the trigger for that batter to pay more attention to that advice.

Another aspect is people learn differently. Explain something 3 ways, and maybe the 4th explanation is the one that finally clicks and makes sense to that person. Perhaps Bonds would provide that 4th explanation and the hitter makes good progress using the adjusted approach.

I see multiple advantages for Bonds being an independent consultant. And I don’t think the legal issues need to be completely resolved. There is no reason why he can’t be working periodically as an independent consultant while still pursuing any legal appeals, etc.

On MLB tonight they’re replaying the episode about the 1950’s with a focus on Jackie Robinson’s years. I didn’t know Rickey released him from his promise to hold his firey temper in check. Apparently Rickey was reported to have said “three years is enough for any man to hold his temper in check” against the provocation Robinson got. From then on, he gave as good as he got.

One more thing for the Anglos here:
Héctor Sánchez will eventually become the SFG’s #1 catcher confirming what I have been saying ALL along that the Latin catchers are MLB’s BEST, period.
Take that>end of the story.

JD4SF

Foothills Ryan says:
December 18th, 2011 at 8:13 pm
298..
JD4SF says:
December 18th, 2011 at 7:02 pm
On Bonds as a consultant …
——–
That may have been one of the best posts I’ve ever read on EB.

=======

Sometimes you just need to think outside the box and the solution presents itself. Paradigm shift. 😉

Mavo

I enjoyed many of the posts on here today! It was nice to also just scroll past the trolls who like to infest our blog… they WILL go away if we all just ignore their ignorant posts!

The point isn’t the Posey injury in particular but what could have been worse, a spinal injury.

There are rules designed to protect “defenseless’ players in Pro & college football. Those are not contacvt, but collision sports with protective padding built into the uniforms. In baseball? a chest protetor? C’mon.. everybody. A baserunner can’t figure out how not to play sack the quarterback while trampling the catcher?

Think about boarding in hockey. The rules have changed with icing & boarding the guy touching up the puck. You can’t tell me a baseball player, hustling 25th man or not, knowint the difference between a hard slide & a blindside shot. And no argument from so-called “purists.” I’m a 54 year old confirmed National League fan who abhors the designated hitter. but to declare a potential homeplate collision that would be outlawed by NFL standards is preposterous.

I still hate Pete Rose (even if he doesn’t) for adversely effecting Ray Fosse @ the all-star game. . .

JD4SF

antispy3 says:
December 19th, 2011 at 12:41 am
311..
The point isn’t the Posey injury in particular but what could have been worse, a spinal injury.
===========

I think a rule change will come. Not a matter of if, but when.

[Being succinct! LOL]

Mavo

@JD4SF let’s hope the rule change comes BEFORE a player suffers a spinal injury. Ditto for banning those exploding maple bats that are a ticking time bomb!

Yes Sir

#313-Neanderthal AKA Mavo:
They are NOT going to change the rule for sentimental fools like you and the rest of the ignorant jerks.

Yes Sir

Get over Posey tried to block without the ball in his hands. How many times Iván Rodríguez been rolled or knocked over? Iván knows how to catch. Guess what?
First ballot HOFer, DUH?

totalfan62

@ JD4SF: re “succinct”…I threw that in there because some of us (especially me…) tend to be a bit verbose when we post on topical subjects on which we are very passionate. The MB contingent avoids that, ergo succinct!

It’s Christmas week. A most wonderful time of the year. To my many EB friends, the first of many Merry Christmas greetings!

Lefty

So I just watched the Brian Sabean segment of that In the Clubhouse show from a few nights ago–it’s long, so I’m watching it in sections on my computer–I actually was heartened to hear the way he talked about Belt: He was very positive about Belt’s winter league hitting and talked about him playing first base with Pill backing him up–and Huff in the outfield.

Baggs a few days ago on the Baseball America show seemed to suggest rather that Belt could start the year in AAA. That’s been my fear since the Giants got the two new outfielders, that once again Belt would be the one out in the cold.

From what Sabean said, it sounds like the one who should be worrying is not Belt but maybe Nate Schierholtz. Nate would fit the “start Huff for his bat and replace him in late innings for defense” model that Bochy has mentioned. And truth be told, Huff in a “good” year IS more of an offensive threat than Nate is. What we don’t know is whether Huff has another year like 2010 left in him.

I remember in 2010, Nate was supposed to be the starting RF but got beat out at the last minute by a sizzling spring by John Bowker. Last year it seemed to be between him and Rowand for the 25th spot on the roster, and only an “injury” to someone in the bullpen (Mota? Casilla?) saved them both. Nate just seems to always be the guy scrapping for the seat at the table.

Foothills Ryan

The Diamondbacks upgraded did little for their roster by adding Jason Kubel.

Spring Training CANNOT get here quick enough. I have a feeling that the Giants offensive woes, while not totally fixed, will be much less than 2011
J-Roll – Uh, no thanks. Already got burnt by signing Fillys in the mid 30’s
Senor Charmin- HELL NO! The man CANNOT play the OF anymore, his knee are falling apart like string cheese, and he wants a multiyear deal

Nate just seems to always be the guy scrapping for the seat at the table.

Good, he’ll always be hungry. Giants need hungry players. The collapse last year should make the team hungrier this year. Posey will be hungry. Sandoval will be hungry (not too hungry though).

Lefty

Dinero & Foothills: Re Huff “smoking”: LOL.

Dinero, I’m with you on Nate. Who had more clutch plays (defensive and offensive) than Nate last year? No one. However, we’re not talking about replacing Nate with Jason Kubel here (Foothills, thanks for posting that link–very interesting analysis). Huff led the World Series team in HR/RBI and finished 7th in NL MVP voting. If THAT Huff comes back in 2012, I’d certainly welcome him, and I don’t really care who he displaces–in the outfield, anyway. It’s time for Belt to grow into the first baseman of the future they hope he’ll be.

My sense is that Nate made a very good impression on Bochy last year and Huff decidedly did NOT. Huff will need to prove he deserves to be in the starting lineup, and if he doesn’t, Nate/Belt (etc.) will be playing and Huff will be on the bench and then gone next year.

This Kubel-for-Parra thing that the Dbacks are doing sounds exactly like Sabean in previous years, and I’m actually heartened that so far he seems to be staying away from that model.

Foothills Ryan

Pitching and defense win! That’s how the DBacks did it last year. That’s how the Giants will do it in 2012. That’s the crux of the argument why Kubel makes no sense for the DBacks.

And another call for Aubrey Huff coming to camp in the best shape of his life.

Nate’sFanMom

RE: My No. 1 boy Nate

He earned Bochy’s respect—and everyone except the most bitter naysayers—with his clutch play.

He did what we all had to do as young people—figure it out.

He learned how not to panic and more importantly, figured out a hitting strategy.

He layed off the insided breaking ball more often than not, and discovered the confidence to drive the ball with authority rather than just hoping he made good contact.

That’s why he was able to get key hits.

He would have had a break out year if he fouled the ball off his foot.

He’s in.

Thing is Bochy WILL favor Huff over Belt. So Belt needs to take a page from Nate’s book and prove himself to Bochy.

Nate’sFanMom

RE: Whiteside/Stewart/Sanchez

Again, the young guy is always the man out under Bochy’s management style.

I would be very pleasantly surprised to see him make it out of ST as Posey’s back-up. Most likely, Bochy et al will make the argument that he deserves regular palying time in AAA.

However, if Stewart or Whiteside (the favorite to win the back-up role, you all know that), Sanchez WILL be up on the big club. Hopefully for good.

Even as an unpolished rookie, Sanchez is better than defender tyhan Whiteside and much better hitter than Stewart and Whiteside—combined.

Jstreet

I’ve been reading how Huff is due for a good year, as per his propensity for theevery/other year performance pattern. Another heartening, and obvious factor is that he will be playing for a contract. Even if the Giants no longer need him in 2012, it seems he would be motivated as never before to do well and show another organization that he’s worth the risk. Go Aubrey! Smoke it. The ball, I mean.

Lefty

Ryan,

Yes, “hungry” is good (unless you’re Sandoval–LOL again). I wonder, though, if there’s a fine line between “hungry” and “pressing because you’re insecure.” For some people (Belt? Crawford?) I wonder if it’s best to let them play for awhile without always looking over their shoulder or thinking that if they go 0-4 they’ll be on the bench for the next five days.

I’m not sure Nate got his opportunity and had a good year because he was “hungry.” No credit to Bochy here–he played Nate because he was DESPERATE. Between injuries to Ross, Torres, and later Burrell and all of them plus Rowand (who like Huff NEVER got hurt) being absolutely putrid offensively, Bochy had no choice but to play Nate, especially after losing Sandoval, then Posey, and then Freddy. And when Beltran came over, what happened? Nate got shoved over to left field, despite playing stellar defense in right.

To Nate’s credit, once he actually/finally(!!) got to play regularly, he took advantage of his opportunity. But there was really no one to replace him, so he knew he could settle in and just play his game. That’s what I want for Belt, too, at least for some period of time. Not forever–no one deserves that–but long enough that he can build some confidence.

Players like Kubel/Cuddyer coming from the AL to the NL … Let’s just say, errr, there will be adjustments to be made….

Even though big Mac was on Androstenedione displayed publicly in his locker (along with other stuff) – MM was always known as a offensive student of the game, but hit .255 in 51 games with SL in 1997. With the help of 162 bases on balls in 1998 Big Mac jumped to .299.

Kubal, as others will need to adjust. NL to AL is easier than AL to NL.

Foothills Ryan says: December 19th, 2011 at 9:13 am 2..If Huff comes out smoking…Would that be the Lucky Strikes or line drives off the wall? Hoping for a best shape of life story on Huff this spring.

—Cute take. I went there two weeks ago and Primetimedonna mentioned “we” should all give Aub_Huff some slack going forward regarding his recreational preferences.

Let’s just say that millions of entertainers in dozens of fields are smokers. Aubrey let his conditioning get very very very far away from him. He smoked the same amount in 2010. The body is an amazing vehicle if you just meet it half way. In 2011 Huff wasn’t prepared and he has owned it.

Before ALL the MAGIC of 2010 = Before Posey, Burrell, Ross, Lopez and Ramirez, Huff literally carried SF on his back.

His leadership in 2010 was out in the open. His lack of leadership in 2011 was also out in the open. Let’s let him fail (hopefully not) in 2012 before we bury the guy completely.

Foothills Ryan

Without looking up WAR, I’d venture that Nate Schierholtz is more valuable than Jason Kubel.

Maybe “What We’re All Thinking” can author the Ballad of a Dodger Fan, but lets not forget, that was almost two years ago.

Somethings never change in SoCal’s-Chavez Ravine though. Here it is the Bottom of the 9th, bases loaded and game on the line:

-Take note of all the empty seats near home plate… That WILL never happen at Willie Mays Field…

-Dodger fans have one huge tradition: Come late and leave early.

primetimedonna

Been away for a few days……great coming back and reading such nice, upbeat comments! Looking forward to spring training and watching so many guys, rookies and vets with a “need to prove something” either coming back from injuries or poor years defensively or offensively (or both!!). Competition is good, and as has been said, good to have the team as a whole be hungry!!

Don’t really think this year many should feel a guarantee of play at any position. Let them earn their spots! A strong bench won’t hurt either!!

Sentimentality aside, Aubrey Huff needs to be traded and Eli Whiteside should be cut.

LAST SEASON was the opportunity to keeping the World Series miracle team together and trying to repeat. Players that didn’t get better or at least put up similar numbers from 2010, should get moved out so that younger, faster, stronger, better players get their chance. This is the MAJOR LEAGUES, not some Sunday, family, coed softball, for-fun games. Put up or get put out. There is no room for sentimentality, especially when you have younger players waiting and you are inhibiting their progress.

Huff is NOT an outfielder. I don’t care if he is in the best shape of his life AND is in the best shape of anyone on the Team, he still would be a lousy outfielder. He more than proved it last year. Also, Aubrey is probably the 5th best defensive 1st baseman on the Team. Anyone who thinks defense at 1st base is not that important, doesn’t know baseball. This Pitching Staff deserves the best defensive play behind them that you can possibly put in a lineup, EVERYDAY. Anything less is a compromise that better be worth it.

Some of you play down Jason Kubel, while assuming Huff will rebound in an “even” year. Huff may slightly rebound, but even more reason to take that opportunity to rid that awful contract, especially since he’s blocking players on the 25 and 40, and at over-crowded positions. I will state right now that Kubel will end up with better numbers than Aubrey next season.

Don’t even get me started on Whiteside’s hitting and defense. Bullpen catcher at best for him.

Being overly sentimental with players by extending their service ON THE FIELD past their worthiness, will assure you of never coming close to repeating again. I like the idea of Pat Burrell being hired in some capacity to staying with the Team. Great guy. Pulls for everyone. Offered to play last year for a discount. Big heart.

Being sentimental and offering a job in the Organization, I can wholeheartedly agree with.

did you read any about the Dodger fan strike over McAwful. Most folks who analyzed the season say that that alone, outside losing, suppressed attendance 40%. The attendance quoted by the team includes season fans who were no shows. The hot dog sales and other concessions support about a 35% decline in attendance. They have about a 30% drop in season ticket holders reupping until McAwful leaves town. Ownership everywhere should take a lesson from what an admittedly moronic ownership did to itself. Chavez Latrine plumbing wasn’t used a lot in 2011.

totalfan62

Let’s hope Bochy learned a lesson last year regarding how to handle younger players and integrate them into the lineup. To be honest, I’m skeptical. I think Nate’s efforts went a long way toward that goal, but I’m sure he still has an itchy trigger finger for Belt and possibly Crawford.

The paradigm has changed substantially during Bochy’s tenure as a major league manager, skewed more toward establishing younger (mid 20s) everyday players vs. the old model that surmised a player’s peak years were 28-32.

Along with our outstanding pitching we have a core of good young players in Sandoval, Posey and Belt. I believe Crawford will hit enough to keep his bat in the lineup, and I believe Brown will be our everyday CF for years to come. Our management has to believe that as well, and buy into it and support it.

-It’s all good. I’ve villified AH with the worst of them. He did not ask to be in the lineup during those months after months of “ground balls to the right side”. The Skipper wrote out the lineup.

Unfortunately the MLB structure regarding salaries and playing time is skewed to what did you do for me in your PAST, not what have you done lately.

I am now convinced that Huff’s Core (mainly his back) was bad as in very bad.

During 1993 Will Clark played in only 132 games. He had issue with his feet and tried to compensate for the pain by “sliding” or “leaking” to the ball during his stride-step. He recovered to hit .283 but it was painful to watch Nuschler try to make that adjustment.

Back injuries are three times as bad, thus wishing AH the best in 2012.

All very true. I’ve tried the Klondike bar, the Dodger Dog and listened to Vin.

Scully should go INTO the HOF before he retires. He is the Best of the Best.

primetimedonna

Al oha

Obviously you are entiteled to your opinion, and you have always been pretty anti Huff which is your perogative, and needless to say last year you had reason to say told you so. But, I have to admit I get a bit annoyed with the references to how bad Huff is in the outfield. Other than the Right field fiasco two games in LA, he has actually done fine there. When he played the outfield in 2010 he played over 50 errorless games there in the beginning of the season, and again when Posey came up. Last year he did fine later in the season playing left field on a few occasions. It seems to me you exaggerate a bit on his ability or lack thereof. If his bat does come around he would be a viable option for the outfield and/or 1B. His contract was mainly a reward for 2010, and no one really expected the tanking in 2011. Perhaps he can live up to his World Series performance and earn his keep in 2012. Much as you’d like to see him traded doesn’t seem too likely right now. Maybe later in the season. But while he’s on the team, can’t we give him the benefit of the doubt and pull for a return to form?

as a matter of fact, one of the reasons we got to the AS break in first place was because from early June through the break, Huff and Ross hit ~.290. That was the cause of the mythical ‘Crawford winning streak’, not any magic the kid brought. It’s easy to see what your predilictions want to see, and not what’s actually happening.

Lefty

CU,

Didn’t Sandoval hit third in his great 2009 and start 2010 hitting third? And that was with Bengie Molina hitting clean-up. Panda’s not, I’ll grant you, the prototypical #3 hitter, but I always thought that’s where you put your best hitter. Maybe Melky, with his 200 hits in 2011, is their best hitter, but it’s hard to buy into that with someone you don’t know yet…

I kinda like Sandoval coming up in the first, maybe with a guy on, and splashing one into the Cove. Gets the game off to a real happy start.

If I read the 2012 schedule right the home opener with the Dodgers isn’t until June 25th. That seems late, and if so, we’re back loaded with Dodger dates like we were with the Padres last season.

primetimedonna

Clutch

Afraid you may be right about Huff’s back having been his main problem (although he’s on record as sayin it was the issue with his poor batting performance, just with the bending over at first). I, like you, think it affected the batting as well. Hopefully part of the thraining he’s doing includes some back strengening. Not sure how possible that is. He is supposedly working out with a vengence. We’ll see if it helps.

ClutchUp

al oha says: December 19th, 2011 at 12:04 pm 336..

“NorthShore” –

Mike Murphy has the best chance of subliminally leaking your Huff-Whiteside knowledge to Mr. 8 3/4 (Its larger this year).

All that you say is buried in everyday logic, but only part of it will come true: Eli will make 175K and initially retard the growth of C’s in the Organization, whereas Huff will offensively be productive and never look comfortable defensively until he lands back in the AL.

If neither happens he’ll move to Oahu and grace her beaches with his red thong.

Oops! Another goof…..meant to say Huff said his back WAS NOT responsible for his poor batting performance. When I make a mistake I do it up good!

ClutchUp

Lefty:

Pablo hit there 97 times in 2009 and I believe he will still hit there but will drift between 3 and 5.

In 2009 there was no BOOK on anything-Sandoval, thus PS took advantage, thus kudos to him. His Bases on Balls should eventually double, as he shows the Leagues-Culture of Opposing Pitching Coaches that he is not going to put the 4 inch outside pitch into play.

Pagan and especially Melky should be a tremendous influence on Pablo, as will – Will Clark – BLBonds – and JT Snow.

Belt will be Huff at 1b with no need for Ishikawa. Instead he’ll have need for an occassional Pill every now and then to cure his slumps and give him a dayoff against Kershaw and the like…..

The Panda, who was MIA in 2010 is expected to be Uribe. Freddy is Freddy with Fontenot ready to spell him like he did in Aug 2010….

It all works except for one little thing…..

Will Brandon Crawfords incredible glove and sure to be streaky bat allow him to pull a reasonable Edgar Renteria impression…. (Edgar was stellar with the leather in the post season…)

If you answer, yes… this team has more than enough.because the pitching us better top to bottom than 2010….

If you answer no… then you better hope the $4 -5M Sabean seems to be stashing for his mid season adjustments can find him a SS who will… 2011 proving otherwise.

primetimedonna

Clutch / Lefty

Due to the lack of production, plus injuries, poor Pablo was jerked around in the lineup. Hopefully this year we will have more stability and the players will be able to settle into a more stable lineup.

prime, I suppose you again prove that fact has a hard time competing with fable and looking like a souther CA beach bum is preferable to looking like a Cleveland cab driver. It’s Tebow time somewhere all the time.

BigJanks

I think we should bat Pablo 3rd.

Here is what Pablo would have done in 162 games last year (potentially). He only played 117 games with the injury…..589 AB, 76R, 185H, 36 2B, 32HR, 97 RBI. The guy batted .315 with .357 OBP and slugged .909 and he’s only 25.

1) We can have speed leading off with (R/L) Pagan.
2) Solid contact hitter in (R) Freddy
3) Great contact and potential power hitter (R/L) Pablo
4) Great contact and potential power hitter (R) Posey
5) Bat Huff here to keep the lineup balanced unless he struggles (L)
6) Melky to protect Huff (R/L) but we need a repeat of 2011.
7) Belt (L) potential upside based on scouting. Let’s see what he can do.
8) Craw (L) strictly for Defense

We are overloaded with left handed bats. It works when we face Right Handed pitching, but when we face a Lefty- that’s when we’ll see Pill get starts.

It’s def a better lineup than last year.

The opening day age of the lineup I have above is: 30, 34, 25, 25, 35, 27, 23, 25

Thanks, Clutch! Wow, what a bunch of ugly lineups in 2009. Fred Lewis hitting third to begin the season is especially notable!

primetimedonna

Channel

LOL!!!

al oha

A-L,

Zito as the 5th Starter is a much bigger “issue” than Crawford at SS.

Lefty

Anti,

I’m hoping the stashed money is going for a fifth starter!

With Crawford, we know what we’re getting: Solid-to-exceptional fielding and light hitting. If he hits .240 or higher, that’s a bonus. There will be no surprises there. Unless he gets seriously injured, there should be no need to buy a SS.

Zito as the incumbent fifth starter scares me, and I’m not sold yet on Surkamp. Really hoping there’s a Vogelsong, Part 2 in the future.

The truth (IMO) about Crawford’s ‘incredible glove. Crawford does make make some, maybe a lot of circus like plays, but he hasn’t become the one thing you really, really want in a SS, dependable, and consistent. I don’t think he positions as well as he could, or keeps his focus from play to play. If you look at his fielding stats, they support that (you guys look it up, F%, UZR, etc.). Compared to Tejada at 34+(?), he’s a wizard, but that’s not the issue. I don’t make these comments so much as criticism, but to temper expectations. Everyone should just set back, relax, and let him try and conquer is problems in the field, and at the plate.

I’d agree about the #5. Jason Marquis is still out there. He won’t strike up any bands, but he’ll keep us in 3x as many games as Zito.

Anti-Lasorda

Just remember in 2010, #5 opening day was Todd Wellermeyer…..

I think, despite all his issues, Zeets will be better than that.

I think were all hoping for a 2010 first half from Barry when he carried the staff through an inconsistent stretch from the Dirty-dirty…..

We may have to use some of the kitty fot a number 5 if we get 2nd half 2010 Zito out of the gate…..

There are 43 million reasons why Zito will get more than 1/2 the season why he had truly lost it or if there is anything left in the tank.

I vote Zito trains with Victor Conte in the off season and miraculously finds that missing 3 mph on his fastball that he used to have playing with the likes of Giambi, Piatt, Tejada, Santangelo, et al. who showed up in Mr. Mitchells report….

YMMV….

ClutchUp

channelclemente says: December 19th, 2011 at 12:24 pm 325..

Can we give Crawford a shot? Every Pitcher (12) plus some up and down from Fresno and Richmond muttered to “Just leave 35 at SS”. Did 35 eventually tank it offensively? Yes.

Check out Omar Vizquel’s first three years or Ozzie Smith’s first four years and you will gleen where I am coming from.

They were firing on all cylinders and were strong at SS defensively.

Ross was helping but he is now gone.
Huff did his every-other-year-thing in 2010 and reverted in 2011.

Crawford is HOME grown. He is “ours”… and we should try to get used to it. The SF Giants have had some tremendous/Okay SS’s throughout history.

Except for maybe Alvin Dark, Richie Aurilia had the most offensive explosion hitting in front of 25.

Aurilia wore 35 and now Crawford was given 35 by Mike Murphy. Crawford did not ask for it. Murphy “sized” Crawdaddy up and “saw” what alot of us here see: Future Offensive Production and an Already Outstanding Major League Glove

ClutchUp

channelclemente says: December 19th, 2011 at 12:53 pm 361..
I don’t make these comments so much as criticism, but to temper expectations. Everyone should just set back, relax, and let him try and conquer is problems in the field, and at the plate.

—Could have fooled me 😉

(I don’t make these comments so much as criticism…)

Livefree

Pretty scary that Torre doesn’t know the rule well enough to know that a rule change isn’t needed. It is already against the rules to interfere with a catcher’s ability to make a play on a runner, which a Cousins-style assault certainly does. It is a change in the interpretation that has been created by MLB. Just as there was no rule change needed to call more strikes. MLB likes football plays at home plate .. be honest and talk about it in those terms. Stop with the silly rules conversation. Baseball is about timing, precision, finesse and speed …. everywhere but at home in MLB.

ClutchUp

Anti-Lasorda says: December 19th, 2011 at 12:39 pm

—Nice to see that noggin of yours back to “hitting cleanup” – here on EBaggs! Good Work ALCB!

My take is that the New Mrs. Zito will add m i l e s —- to Zeets fastball and his S T A M I N A ….. will be legendary.

Having been offered to work out with Wilson and Zach Galifianakis, I am glad Barry chose his own path.

al oha

ClutchUp,

“Mahalo” for the link about Mike Murphy. A true Giant, who has been there from the beginning and is still there. What a wealth of information and stories this guy must have.

And great knowledge of the history of S.F. Giant shortstops. I remember when Hal Lanier moved over from 2nd base and replaced Jose Pagan at SS. Hal was a really weak hitter, but excellent defensive fielder. It was at that time that I learned that Major League teams would “tolerate” weakness offensively for really good defense, but mostly for positions Up The Middle only. Catcher, SS, 2nd Base, and Centerfield are positions that DEFENSE is MANDATORY and Offense is a BONUS.

The Giants have gone against that thinking far too many times. Hopefully, Sabean and Bochy have learned that lesson.

the truth is the truth, and we all hope Crawford grows into the job. Me, I draw a lot of optimism from the likes of Elvis Andrus. He started out like Crawford, great, but erratic and when he settled in, through no help of the Ranger’s fanbase, he’s a member of probably the best infield in the AL.

I just saw the great unwashed decamp from Huff, and I don’t want to have to listen to the same guff about Crawford. He’ll earn a job, or vanish in a puff of smoke like a lot of other ‘golden gloved’ SS have over the years. His problem, IMO, is going to be how his play in the field fares as he works through his struggles at the plate.

By the way, every kitchen corner expert is going to want to get his two bits in on how Bochy brings Crawford along. I, for one, will reserve judgement until season’s end, and admit I don’t have a clue on how to teach him to be a major league SS.

al oha

LiveFree,

Truer words on the subject are so rarely stated.

Very well said.

Lefty

Anti,

Agreed, Zito was stellar in the first half of 2010. The Giants don’t make the playoffs without him. I would even argue he wasn’t that bad in the second half, despite the losing streak. He won his first start after the ASB, I think 1-0. For the next five starts, he actually pitched well, but he got something ridiculous like two runs (total) of support over those five games. Then he had a flukey loss in relief in that wild game against the Reds, meaning that he actually lost three games in a six-day period. My theory is that the stress of all those tight games with no support got to him, and then he did actually start pitching poorly in August–not as poorly as Lincecum did, though. Zito doesn’t have the same kind of makeup as, say, Cain, who I take it has gotten used to “being Cained” over the years.

I think Zito should just forget about his “fastball” and embrace that he’s now a junkball pitcher like his idol, that ageless Lefty Jamie Moyer. When Zito’s curveball is working, it’s a thing of beauty like Lincecum’s changeup and Wilson’s cutter.

ClutchUp

al oha says: December 19th, 2011 at 1:26 pm 366..ClutchUp,

—Thanks A.O.

I left out Tejada and OCab. I just couldn’t type their names in that group of men 🙁

primetimedonna

Clutch / Channel

I really think Channel is just trying to temper some of the optimism for Crawford. I really love local boy makes good Craw. So great to see someone we saw sitting in the stands at AT&T now playing on the field! I think he has great potential, and look forward to watching him progress. Really do think he can do it! But sometimes things do need to be tempered a bit when we put such high hopes on a rookie. Many of us have been guilty of making assumptions about the kids, and sometimes putting a bit too much pressure on them by insisting they should be playing full time. In Craw’s case being the choice of the pitchers should definitely weigh heavily in the decision making. But we still need to temper expectations and realize full time jobs need to be won. That’s pretty much the way it’s been done near as I remember. Not a bad system.

I’ve kidded for over a year, Lefty, that Zito should start to throw a knuckleball. With that curveball, he actually might be pretty effective. With the defense improving in the infield, we eagerly await his debut.

primetimedonna

Lefty

Well said about Zito. Wouldn’t it be nice if he surprised us this year? You’re right about him laying off the worry on his “fastball”. It’s painful to watch!

exactly, the kids (Crawford’s) biggest enemy is pressure and expectations. It’s my opinion, that him grinding on himself is his biggest enemy. He just needs to go have fun and play full out.

ClutchUp

channelclemente says: December 19th, 2011 at 1:29 pm 369..CU, the truth is the truth, and we all hope Crawford grows into the job.

Growing into the J.O.B. has countless-thousand of hours within the recipe consisting of “side work” on the actual fields of play or the so-called “back-fields”.

Given his honeymoon vacation is over with, I guarantee that Crawford has dozens of places he could go to punch his time clock. UCLA has decent baseball facilities as does Foothill HS where former MLB player Greg Jefferies is an assistant coach. Workout Facilities are everywhere. The SF Staff give their young position players Baseball Specifics to work on. Specificity is the key. The payoff comes when “kids” like Crawford have accomplished their quota of 5000 exact swings, not just 5000 swings. Practice does not make Perfect. Perfect Practice Makes Perfect. Young HS and College players, left ALONE will end up “perfecting bad habits” and their body follows their mind. (Muscle Memory). Function will follow Form.

“Farmers” put hay in the barn all year long, so that when the time comes and it is needed, they open the two big front doors — and there it is, an arms distance within reach 😉

ClutchUp

primetimedonna

PTD: Good catch on Gary Browns admittance to 35’s nickname (BCraw) although I think the other day with Lurie I heard GBrown (aka Brownie) blurt out BCrawls.

Mavo says:
December 19th, 2011 at 3:13 am
313..
@JD4SF let’s hope the rule change comes BEFORE a player suffers a spinal injury. Ditto for banning those exploding maple bats that are a ticking time bomb!
=========

primetimedonna says:
December 19th, 2011 at 1:40 pm
376..
Clutch / Channel
I really think Channel is just trying to temper some of the optimism for Crawford.
============

Agree. And Crawford isn’t the only one who needs to grow into his job. Hopefully all will start strong and settle in as very positive assets.

JD4SF

Lefty says:
December 19th, 2011 at 1:31 pm
===========

Good thoughts on Zito.

JD4SF

I think it is a good strategy to wait and see what 2012 brings us regarding player performance. Zito, Wilson, Huff, Buster, Crawford, Pablo, Freddy, Belt, Nate, Melky, Angel … essentially ALL players have potential issues. If they all do well, the Giants do very well.

ClutchUp

Mavo says: December 19th, 2011 at 12:39 am 297..I enjoyed many of the posts on here today! It was nice to also just scroll past the trolls who like to infest our blog… they WILL go away if we all just ignore their ignorant posts!

I will add to your infest: Infect. We’re getting better and that’s what counts.

Chris, I still can’t get over what a tremendous “item” America’s Game is.

😉

ClutchUp

JD4SF says: December 19th, 2011 at 2:23 pm 374..primetimedonna says:December 19th, 2011 at 1:40 pm376..Clutch / ChannelI really think Channel is just trying to temper some of the optimism for Crawford.Agree. And Crawford isn’t the only one who needs to grow into his job. Hopefully all will start strong and settle in as very positive assets.

*** I’m laughing. Now Channel is going to have to back off because you gave him the benefit of the doubt. Thank you as always M-Bears 😉

Crawford and Freddy… Uniform Numbers 35 and 21, together they add up and will have me reflecting on Andres Torres, #56 and his great contributions to 2010.

Thanks for the link Channel; Double Play Partner’s = Harmony cannot be under-valued. The way todays athletes get down the line these days (Sub 4) they both will get to work on their “feeds” and “exchanges”.

and footwork across the bag. The only thing that my untutored eye picked up about Crawford was his awkward footwork coming to the bag from behind 2B to take the pitch from 2B. If he’s coming from SS across the bag, it’s a circus act with a wow. I would suppose his defensive positioning will markedly improve as he gets more time with a competent catcher like Posey. Playing defense behind guys that more and more pitch to contact must be at both times exhilirating if your a skilled SS and demanding to focus on the pitch. With him, I wonder if we’ll see a lot more pickoffs to 2B. Speed and good defense changes almost everything about the infield game. I would speculate that the Fangraphs crew collectively scratch their heads bout the low BABIP I’d expect next year. If he can just hit .240+ and contribute, I think he could be a living highlight real next year, given the confidence it’ll give him.

ClutchUp

CC: “defensive positioning will markedly improve as he gets more time”…

😉 Glad I left something for you to discuss, and I knew you wouldn’t let me down. Footwork is probably one of Ron Wotus’s upside. Many years ago the G’s had Bob (flea) Lillis. Between Flannery’s golden singing pipes and Wotus’ style of teaching footwork, glove work and throws Crawford should be in good shape. (Think Vintage Ron Washington who Eric Chavez game one of his GG trophies to)

Of course let’s not forget Freddy’s knowledge of time spent from the Left side in his early days in BB coming UP + working with former SS Jack Wilson.

This from GFanTx very reasonable LU. Playing matchups and resting Posey will be a daily occurence to keep this offense rolling. Freddie’s numbers are 2010, not enough PA in 2011. From the holes in the order, they may have to carry Hector Sanchez for late inning subs and matchup when they rest Posey. The attractivenes of Cabrera and Pagan just leap out, given the other matchup issues.

ClutchUp

LeftyBear:

Anybody who attends a HS named Sam Barlow deserves a shot + like you said if it becomes Vogey 2.0, what the heck.

Posey’s numbers against LHP were down it seemed, because he was trying to pull everything and plug some power into that LU. He just about stopped going the other way last year.

JD4SF

ClutchUp says:
December 19th, 2011 at 2:32 pm
392..
*** I’m laughing. Now Channel is going to have to back off because you gave him the benefit of the doubt. Thank you as always M-Bears
===========

Well, after decades with horses I learned to value “misbehavior” *prevention*. Shut you BOTH down before you guys could really get started, eh? LOL

Perhaps we can’t manage Peace on Earth, but we can certainly wish for Peace on the Blog! 😉

★*˚°。°*。°*。★*˚°。°*。°˚°★*˚°。°*。​ °*★*˚°。°*。°*★
˛°_██_*˚°。°/​ ♥ \*˚°。°*。°*★*˚°。°*。°*★*˚°。°*。°*★
˛. (´• ̮•)*.。*/​ ♫.♫\*˛.*˛_Π_____*˚°。*。°*❤*˚°。°* 。°*★
.°( . • . ) ˛°./• ‘♫ ‘ •\.˛*./______/~＼*˚°。°*。°*°*❤ ˚°*★
*(…’•’.. ) *˛╬╬╬╬╬˛°.｜田田❤｜門｜╬╬╬╬╬*˚°。°*。°​ * ♥
★*˚°。°*。°*。★ MERRY CHRISTMAS!!! ★ Warm hugs, lots of love to everyone and the glow of flickering candlelight. May you all be blessed with good family and friends, good health, food, warmth and shelter. Many wishes for a more prosperous New Year … and a GREAT 2012 Giants season!!! ♥♥

Anti: We could put McCarv. into our very own Hall of Shame. I take it Joe Angel (very good guy by the way) Angel in the HOS with his:
You can wave it bye bye… 🙁

ClutchUp

I guess the TWO power outages tonight helped pile on the embarrassment that is Candlestick Park. Not since 1989 has the power gone out and that was Mother Nature.

Mucho EGG on the faces of local heads of departments of utility services. Wonder if PGE will ever recover if this in fact is related to PGE coming on the heels of the distaster in San Bruno last year.

JD4SF

The Candlestick outages even made the rounds on FaceBook. Ouch!

JD4SF

ClutchUp says:
December 19th, 2011 at 8:23 pm
420..
Okay, have seen it all now, such artistry Dame JD
=============

LOL, wish I could take credit! Talented copy and paste. All I did was change some text. 😉

totalfan62

Can’t stop thinking about the five guys for four positions situation in OF/1B. I think Cabrera-Pagan-Nate in OF with Belt at 1B and Huff off the bench. We won’t know until spring training, but Huff should earn his position vs. play for the $10M pay.

I’m with Al Oha as well in thinking that Huff is NOT an OF. If indeed Huff comes to camp in shape and smoking in all the right ways, it might make sense to trade him to an AL team that could use a lefty DH. If we could get two Gillaspie/Hembree type prospects it would be a good deal, even if we had to eat up to $5 million salary.

Just a thought.

Lefty

Totalfan,

Wow, up late! Watching our much-delayed 49ers game, maybe?

Couldn’t agree more on all counts. Trading Huff might be to Belt as trading Bengie was to Buster. If Bochy has Huff…well, we all know what will probably happen.

They would need another legit OF, though. It’s pretty thin if someone gets injured. Don’t much like the Emmanuel Burriss as emergency LF option!

totalfan62

Did I just read that McCarver was awarded the Ford Frick (HOF?) award? MCCARVER??? Maybe once, 20+ years ago, but certainly not now.

Any guy who’s on the Awful Announcing “Mount Rushmore” can’t be in ANY hall of fame. Check it out

Lefty: oh yeah, watching the Niners win a very big game! This is a statement to the NFL that the 49ers are for real. Our defense is beast mode big-time!

Back to our Giants: it feels right now like the more we nuture and invest in our younger homegrown players we will be better for a longer period. Posey, Belt, Panik, Crawford, Pablo. Brown CF, Nate RF, with homegrown LF to be named. That would give us room to pay the pitchers and the stars in this core group. Wouldn’t that be nice?

Just watched Rock Center with Brian Williams with the extended version of the Bryan Stow incident.

What a family of support he has going for him… medical bills in the millions of dollars … foreboding text message Bryan sent a friend prior to the parking lot incident, described by his two friends as a hay-maker, roundhouse sucker punch with the sound of the back of his head colliding with concrete.

Whereas Congresswomen Gifford has made an amazing recovering from her gun-shot wound, this young man Bryan Stow is going to need ALL our prayers going forward. He has a decade of therapy to even make strides as his disability is very apparent that it will not be going away.

As Brian Williams mentioned: Alcohol + testosterone has led to an epidemic of insanity at ball parks/athletic events throughout the world.

Godspeed Bryan Stow…

Mavo

Clutch … I’ll check out America’s Game when I get a chance! Thanks for the recommendation.

JD4SF

Lefty says:
December 19th, 2011 at 10:17 pm
426..
Trading Huff might be to Belt as trading Bengie was to Buster.
===============

Huff has 1 more year with the Giants. If Belt looks like he is doing pretty well and for some reason we need another player, I agree we might see Huff traded. Otherwise I suspect we’ll see a bunch of juggling.

If Huff is doing well there is potential he’d fit in the Burrel PH role that puts him out playing later in the game, but for his career I imagine he’d want as much playing time as possible so he can be seen as more viable for 2013.

*Because* Huff is in his last year as a Giant, and because 2011 didn’t go well for him, he is VERY motivated to come back strong in 2012. Bochy mentioned in the interview that Huff was working hard and emailing weekly photos to confirm he is getting into better shape. So Huff apparently plans to return fighting for as much playing time as he can get amidst all the competition.

The Buster/Bengie comparison to Belt/Huff I’m not convinced would be as successful … mostly from the mental maturity perspective. Belt will need to come out strong to claim his own space. I suspect big factors in Belt’s progress will be mental maturity and a more reliable bat … which can be related.

It may actually be better for Belt to ease into the more permanent starting role instead of a sink or swim situation. Buster swam, but he obviously has mental maturity and adjusted quickly to the additional stress as THE starting catcher. Belt might be overwhelmed and sink. Or, it appeared like he did some maturing at the end of 2011 season and post season, so he might swim. I’m in a “wait and see” mode regarding Belt.

Is it Spring Training yet???? [sigh]

Lefty

JD,

You make some good points. I think it’s unlikely that they can/will trade Huff, and we all appreciate him for 2010 and hope he comes back and has a great year.

I have an alternate version of the Belt/Buster comparison. Buster had a Golden Ticket–Golden Spikes winner, high first-round draft pick, biggest signing bonus–he was “can’t miss” and he and everyone knew it. In that respect he’s like Lincecum, not Belt. Belt was a fifth-rounder who surprised everyone by rising through the ranks as he did in 2010. I think the pedigree makes a huge difference in how you think about yourself and how others treat you.

I don’t mind Belt easing into the job this next year as long as there’s a plan. The “approach” to Belt last year, if there really was one, did not work for him or the Giants.

As to Huff and Belt, I just don’t want to see a rerun of 2011. I didn’t like it the first time!

Foothills Ryan

Yes, McCarver is a little hard on the ears, but apparently he was once quite good. Read before you write him off:

Where is Fielder headed ? After losing the Darvish bid and Texas winning, I’d have to say the Blue Jays go balls out for Fielder now. And trade for Garza. And win the AL East in 2012. Maybe I’m going too far, but Bautista/Fielder is about as good as Braun/Fielder (with or without PED).

primetimedonna

JD4SF / Lefty / Foothills Ryan

Well, know I’m probably know as the Huff apologist, and understand people’s frustration with his 2011 performance. But sometimes the anger seemed a bit intense. I assume much of that is not only due to his contract and steep drop off in 2011 but the fact that many have seen him as blocking the progress of Belt. As has been pointed out it is not quite fair to heap all the blame on Huff. He never put his name on those lineup cards. Also, Belt did not exactly intstill great confidence most of the year when he was given the opportunity, no matter what excuses people choose to make for him.

So many here call for dumping Huff (or trading him while eating much of his salary). At some point it may develop that that is the way to go. In the meantime, I just don’t understand why it doesn’t make more sense to at least wait till we see what Belt and Huff accomplish during the spring. Don’t see that many people out there who we could get while still paying Huff’s salary who would be that much better than Huff or Belt. The assumption is that one, if not both, will be getting a fair share of playing time. Last time I checked we still need to have players off the bench as back ups and pinch hitters. Seems to me that both players deserve the chance to be on the team or at least prove themselves, Belt because of his promise and Huff because of his former value to the team.

Do we really need to make this decision right now, since it won’t result in “trading up” at the moment?

David H

Does anyone else see the lost marketing dollars and Far East television rights the Giants just passed on to get the signing rights to Darvish.

100 million to get the player signed, 52 to the Tigers and 48 to Darvish, generally speaking!!! 300 million television and marketing deal, with Japanese Markets here on the West Coast with its huge Asian population.

Opportunity Lost.

Lefty

Just read an article about how GMs/teams are big fat liars when it comes to how much money they have to spend:

Grant at the McCovey Chron tweeted that the article made him wonder if the Giants might not still go after Beltran after all…

My take is that Sabean, Baer, et al. are being straight with us about their plans–but it’s still an interesting piece.

Lefty

PTD,

I am definitely not a Huff-hater. In fact, I kinda love the guy. (BTW, Happy Birthday, Aubrey!) I will be ecstatic if the “even-year” Huff re-emerges in 2012.

I do, as I keep saying, want to see Belt have a decent/better opportunity to develop in this next year. IMO, 2011 was pretty much wasted in that regard–we’re not really much closer to knowing what/who we have in Belt than we were a year ago. And that’s frustrating because the offense isn’t looking that much better, and they need a productive Belt (as much as he’s capable of–which we don’t know yet).

Really the only good thing they did for Belt all year was send him to winter ball. The latest MLB piece on Belt suggests that the DR experience was really good for him:

Know you’re not a hater, but I really think too much blame is put on Huff for the Belt situation. Believe it or not, I agree that I want to see Belt have a decent opportunity to develop. Hope he’s with us for a long time. Just don’t see why his opportunity to develop has to come at Huff’s expense. When Huff came on the scene in 1999 – 2000 he was quite the prospect himself. He had to prove himself and beat out some vets too. Just feel that the two objectives aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive. Seems that because of the way Boch handled things last year it became a matter of people feeling that Huff needed to be traded (as many have said for a bag of used balls) for Belt to succeed.

I feel competition is best for the Giants as a team. I’m not a big proponent of anyone, rookie or vet being guaranteed play time. I agree they need a productive Belt, but I think we differ in that I think it’s still possible to have a productive Huff as well. Let’s face it, we need all the offensive production we can! I have no problem with who starts, or where, or who comes off the bench. I wish all our guys well! Huff has over 240 Career Home runs. I wouldn’t mind seeing another 20 or so in a Giant’s uniform. Would be nice to see Belt beat that number in the long career I hope he has ahead of him.

primetimedonna

Lefty

PS I followed Belt’s progress in the Dominican Republic daily, and was DELIGHTED by how well he did……especially in cutting back on those strike outs!!

Lefty

PTD,

I saw the “Happy Birthday” to Huff on my Twitter feed this morning. No, I think we agree: We need Belt to have healthy, steady development as a youngster, and we want/need Huff to be the productive hitter/leader he has proven to be in other years.

It’s a math problem, really: Let’s say that both Huff and Belt are hitting well in spring training and April. There is one 1B position (which has to be shared sometimes with Posey and maybe also with Pill) and two corner outfield positions (let’s say neither Belt nor Huff is going to play CF!). We also have Nate and our two new additions, Melky and Pagan. We all love Nate and want to see him get the playing time he’s waited for and earned. And we just paid a price in trades to get Melky and Angel for just one year each, so we certainly want to get value from them and hope they can help us with speed and defense.

So given this math problem, someone is going to lose out on regular ABs and playing time. If it’s not Huff or Belt, it’s going to be one of those three outfielders (or Pill, I suppose, but under any scenario, he’s probably a bench player). I’m not necessarily arguing that Huff should be the one losing out, but someone is going to–and I think my main point is that I hope it’s not Belt, for the reasons I said in my earlier posts. And after what happened in 2011, I think my fears that it WILL be Belt are not unreasonable. 🙁

I read that article too Lefty, pretty interesting. There really isn’t much benefit in being honest about your intentions as an FO. I too get the feeling that Sabean et. al. are being straight with us though, they typically are. But, who knows? Maybe it is all a smokescreen.

As for Belt, the best thing he could have done in the DR IMO is show consistency. That’s exactly what he did. The numbers weren’t flashy, they weren’t blowing anybody away, but he was productive day in and day out. I think that was huge. I think that spoke volumes for the progress Belt has made, and also gave us good reason to hope that he can continue that consistency next year. We all saw the potential, we all saw the top end. If he can do it consistently, he’s an All-Star.

I’d like to see Belt get at least 300 ABs next year, hopefully closer to 400. That should be doable, regardless of who is playing well. Bochy should be able to mix and match and get everybody involved.

NL West Projecting Device

How’s about 500 AB’s for Belt? Why stop there? 600 !!

ClutchUp

David H says: December 20th, 2011 at 9:24 am 379..Does anyone else see the lost Opportunity Lost.

—I am sure they do, because the SF Organization was the darlings of the Pacific Rim during the 1964-1964 years with Masanori Murakami.

In 1982 – Atlee Hammaker being “hapa” brought even more love to SF. His MLB record however was (59 and 67) and Atlee made the NL AS team in 1983, the year he was 10-9. Fred Lynn hit a Grand Slam (the only one in history) and Atlee gave up 7 earned in 2/3rds of an inning. (Yikes Giant pitchers in AS games=not good – Rick Reuschel giving up a Tater to Bo Jackson @ 448 ft)

Then came Shinjo whose wrist bands rivaled Dusty’s in 2002 and we know Shinjo’s lack of MLB cred.

Lastly the Red Sox experience with Dice-K leaves most of, not all of ML baseball leery of the mechanics of some foreign-born hurlers.

Darvish’s 232 innings in 2011 make some scouts drool and others are skeptical. The Giants (Raggs etc) are on the skeptical side.

primetimedonna

Lefty / Dinero

Agree, Lefty that we are on the same page basically…..there may have to be a sharing of time, and some balancing, but that would be a nice problem to have!! Now that Huff has become an old man today, even if hitting well he’ll need breaks, not to mention the being taken out for defense. If Belt is hitting better, he’ll be starting a first and Huff will need to share time in the outfield. If Melky and Pagan and Nate are all hitting well, darn, I’d love those problems! As we learned the hard way last year, keeping enough healthy, well hitting bodies on the field is definitely a much worse problem. I think Belt is a more planned part of the mix this year, and won’t be the one to suffer. Remember last year it was only Ross’ injury that brought him up earlier than they might have liked. He’s matured a lot since then.

ClutchUp

One of the key’s to Belt’s comfort zone is his nutritional consistency. Late last year when Brandon haphazardly mentioned that he had dropped 25 pounds from game one to game 162, the then announcer/interviewer almost could not recover from that tidbit of information.

As we saw in the stands vs. Houston with the huge and varied Belt family in attendance, Brandon is big on family. His initial reluctance to play Winter Ball was separation from he and Haylee.

Brandon also fessed-up about what he did incorrect regarding his approach to an entire 162 game professional season. In truth it was a perfect storm of things that contributed, none of which were the number one reason for his inconsistency. You had: Making Big Club out of ST and the ridiculous amount of Prime Time Cameras following everyone including him making the club. (Note: Yes WE all loved watching those, but the club spent MORE time denying that they were intrusive, then just admitting from day one, that they were awkward) Belt’s two injuries, Up, down, around and sideways random treatment etc.

Please do NOT expect TOO much. At times he will NEVER miss a pitch, and other times he will seem/look lost at the plate. Average-Good professional hitters can have an individual ‘great’ game and then go OH for a complete 4 game series. We’ve already seen when BB is locked in – he takes a large amount of Walks = he just “spits” on pitches Off the Plate; Other times he will take a 2-2 / 3-2 pitch for Strike 3, that everyone knows he is capable of fouling off to make the pitcher throw another…

His learning curve will take on many configurations. He will appear to have arrived, and then occasional take, not two steps back, but perhaps three. He is a good kid, good listener and enthusiastic.

He quickly caught the eye of Will Nuschler Clark and Will doesn’t give out compliments easy. My concern here is that Will hardly ever struggled (.303) so please do not associate Belt’s swing and Will’s swing as having anything in common. Will was 6’1 and BB is 6’5. Will had NO holes in his swing and Brandon has MANY.

He is a KEEPER ladies and gentlemen…

totalfan62

On Huff: I don’t mean to throw him under the bus or boot him out the door. He’s a proven major league hitter who was the backbone of the Giants offense in 2010. All that being said, it’s not automatic that he bounces back with a good year (in the good-year-bad-year scenario). His bat speed has definitely slowed and last year he was unable/unwilling to change his swing and approach in order to hit the ball to the left side more often.

On the other hand, Belt is a rising star who can/should give us 20+ HR, 80+ RBI and OPS in the .850 range. He will also give us gold glove 1B play, an essential element given our pitching-centric roster.

I also think Bret Pill could play an important role. He’s a patient hitter with a short stroke and should be our #1 righty PH option. I’d love to see Pill in AZ in January, working on his hitting and taking OF fly balls and additional ground balls at 3B and 2B. If he would be willing to catch a few innings in ST he could be even more valuable.

It’s always better to trade a player a year too early vs. a year too late, and I think we might find that to be a good option for Huff.

primetimedonna

Clutch

Good assessment. I agree he is a keeper! My only possible divergence from many here has nothing to do with Huff, but rather with the philosophy of guaranteeing players at bats. I am of the belief that talent wills out. I know many have commented on the yo yoing of Matt Williams in his early years as having been a problem.

I rest my case!!

Foothills Ryan

Agreed that Belt could put down a few more steak sandwiches. I would like to deliver him some grass fed beef raised by yours truly. As a Texas boy, he should know his cuts.

He’s still filling in his frame. Hopefully his honey’s homecookin’ sticks to dem ribs. When he gets stronger, look out. As he is, he’s got tremendous leverage in his swing. Do you remember the bomb he hit to just left of center in Miami?

And Happy Birthday Huff Daddy ! His 2010 was a very outstanding offensive season. OPS+ of 142, wOBA of .388, anyway you slice it, it was great!

primetimedonna

Total Fan 62

Agree that it’s always better to trade a player too early than too late, but at this point your trade options for Huff just aren’t there. A legitimate trade may be possible if he comes around, but I don’t see a market for him now. With his salary, it would be more of just a salary dump, and if there is a chance of getting some value from him this year as a player, that would seem to make more sense than flushing away the $10 mil & option. That money would still be on the books this year and I’d assume it wouldn’t become available towards an “impact” player.

Yes, there is a lot of upside to Belt, but if it turns our that he doesn’t come around as quickly as we might hope, wouldn’t it be better to have an improved (even if not to 2010 Form) Huff as opposed to another has been or too green rookie? Just don’t see the need for a fire sale right now before we’ve even seen what we may have in Spring Training. No one is saying there is a guarantee “good year”. Sure age may just be catching up (I really doubt he just refused to try to change), but we’ve paid our money, why not take our chances (or at least a long look).

totalfan62

@ Foothills, re McCarver:

I read that same article when Posnanski first posted it. To me it was even more evidence that McCarver was dated, out of touch and a very poor analyst. His contributions are limited to old and tired cliches and observations. He rarely mentions any of the new set of measurables we now use to analyze performance. Have you ever heard him give you a “scouting report” on an umpire’s strike zone? Krukow does that for every game. The Francona observation on Kinsler and McCarver’s subsequent “I never thought of him that way” speaks volumes.

The Ford C. Frick award is for career achievement, and McCarver was once very good (mid ’80s to early 90s), but his work of the last 10 years plus is simply awful. Awhile back I was watching a tape of the 2002 WS, the game the Giants won I think 16-4, and McCarver’s waxing poetic about Willie Mays’ World Series appearances and completely omitted his 1962 Series vs. Yankees. Joe Buck had his back, but those in the know had to be thinking WTF?

I just hope this very prestigious award does not become an “it’s your turn to win it this year” thing. There are many very good baseball announcers plying their craft, including our favorites K&K.

ClutchUp

PTD:

It’s doubtful that BB will get the amount of perfect number of at bats or plate appearances that Pro-Belt fans want. To a large degree it will depend on what type of “approaches” Brandon has on a consistent basis and also what kind of quality at bats he “puts up”. We all know 😉 that with 8 defensive players standing in front of a hitter – that NO hitter can control the outcome/result of a ball put into play.

-He controls his swing principles and the pitch selection and how hard he busts out of the box (topic for another day)

Also, I think all the Mama-Bears (if they wanted to) could, over the holidays win a couple of tavern – house party bets (trivia) by engaging all the Papa-Bears in this discussion:

Question: How many at bats do you need to win a major league batting title?

Expected Smarty-Pants Response:
“At least 502 official at bats are needed to qualify for a batting title.”

Mama-Bears Responding in Unison:
That is incorrect. MLB requires this many Plate Appearances to qualify, not at bats. A player could theoretically go 1-1, then get 501 walks, hit by pitches, and sacrifices to qualify. Correct answer for minimum AT BATS, to qualify: is 1.

😉 Line-up those “Corona Extra’s” (or preference of choice)

ClutchUp

totalfan62 says: December 20th, 2011 at 12:17 pm 1..On Huff: It’s always better to trade a player a year too early vs. a year too late, and I think we might find that to be a good option for Huff.

—Even Bill Walsh fell out of favor with that vested principle: Montana-Lott-Craig and even Rice, yet many players who fell victim to that policy eventually kissed and made up 1000 times over.

Except maybe Kenny Williams and Frank Thomas… 😉

primetimedonna

Clutch

LOL! This Mama Bear doesn’t drink enough to hold her liquor to use this too many times for drinks, but will definitely use it!!

Heard our Wildcat Tony Rhein on Murph and Mac this morning…….it had been awhile since I’d heard him though he’s been back for awhile. He was quite a ballplayer in his high school days. Played at St. Marys out of High School then transferred to USF.

The Wisdom Cow

OK Ownership, wake the F up! Roy Oswalt is willing to take a one year contract to prove his back is well and get a big payday on his NEXT contract.

SIGN HIM NOW!

His numbers would benefit from AT&T park and it would put the club in the position to trade him if they want to at the break for prospects while keeping the four primary postseason starters.

———————————

On Huff, every post that contains “trade Huff” cracks me up. Might as well add “for McCutcheon” to it. The odds stay the same.

———————————

Sabean is clearly being truthful with “us” about his lack of economic flexibility. Telling the press he no longer even has the authority to go to the board with a proposal to increase payroll was a slap in the face to Baer. Sabean is not an idiot. There were only a few really good options/fits out there this off season, but the ones there were (Rollins and Darvish) were ones previous Giant ownership groups would have clearly investigated (like being in touch with Sabathia before he signed with the Yankees). I imagine Sabean is as upset with the ownership group as I am that he could not even submit a bid on darvish. Regardless of winning or losing the bid, not trying was stupid on both the baseball and marketing fronts.

I will always be conflicted with McCarver, because sans Buck, I don’t mind his knowledge, just his macanations. I do LIKE his TV Show, the one on one item.

My parents made us boys watch those OLD hideous TV shows ( only 5 channels). My parents loved Victor Borge … and my brother and I would sit there dreaming about hitting the next whiffle ball over the dining room table for a HR.

Yet now the old PBS shows of Victor Borge make me actually laugh.

But then again I am NOT a Joe Morgan hater either, having watched Joe and Duane on “Giiant’s Vision at the beginning. I love ALL those East Bay neighborhood survivors and what they have meant to ML Baseball: Pinson, Robinson, Morgan, Shooty Babbit and many others. (HipHip=Bill Russell)

primetimedonna says: Rhein on Murph and Mac this morning…….it had been awhile since I’d heard him though he’s been back for awhile. He was quite a ballplayer in his high school days. Played at St. Marys out of High School then transferred to USF.

Good Stuff, great parents by the way. Rhein was a player EVEN in the PPSL at St Gregory’s in San Mateo!! 8th grade!!

@ PTD, re Huff: first, this is a great thread within the thread on the Huff discussion. It’s posts and replies like this that make EB the go-to place for serious Giants fans.

What I meant to convey was that if we get through spring training (and maybe into April/early May) and find ourselves plus-one for these four positions, we would be wise to review trade options. Even in his stellar 2010 year Huff’s OPS sagged quite a bit after August 1.

He is a pro’s pro, he will be playing for another contract, he had high intangibles in ’10 (not so much last year…), there’s a lot to like, no doubt, and we need a lot more offensive production in ’12. Huff might bring a couple of good prospects to help replenish the AA/AAA roster, and that might end up being better long term for the Giants than what Huff delivers as the guy off the bench.

primetimedonna

The Rheins are good friends from our SI Days. Watched many a game together!! Enjoyed some tournament trips to SLO and Reno in those days as well!! Good times!

Our feline fans will have a field day now: Panda-Belt-Melky gear as well as Pagán’s nicknames: “El Caballo Loco” or “Crazy Horse”.

ClutchUp

primetimedonna says: December 20th, 2011 at 1:15 pm 457..The Rheins are good friends from our SI Days. Watched many a game together!! Enjoyed some tournament trips to SLO and Reno in those days as well!! Good times!

—HaHa, those SI families truly ARE the salt of the earth. We’ve (you and yours and ours) have probably been in the same stands together. Those Reno trips produced BAD umpiring!

you raise an interesting question about what’s been called Huff’s “Dead Cat Bounces” in performance over the years with your August observation. Some other folks have actually analyzed his puzzling season to season performance, and it’s not so simple as some would believe.

Umpiring was especially bad when you were the mother of a pitcher! ;>)

Funny, didn’t recognize you here from those times in the stands! LOL!

primetimedonna

Total Fan 62/ Channel

Watch out with that Dead Cat talk, channel!! We Mama Bears are protective of thos cubs! But you are correct. Huff has had some interesting dynamics going on during the course of his career. I remember reading that it wasn’t so much bad years as bad mid season to mid season some years.

Total

You may be right with possible trade viability mid or even early season. Guess we will see. Or, he may retire from here like his buddy Pat.

JD4SF

Lefty says:
December 20th, 2011 at 7:21 am
432..
Belt was a fifth-rounder who surprised everyone by rising through the ranks as he did in 2010. I think the pedigree makes a huge difference in how you think about yourself and how others treat you.
============

Interesting. Perception can indeed be a factor. But I think a lot of that has a foundation in mental maturity, or to narrow it down, more like self-confidence. Not the surface / public face, but the knowledge deep inside that even if you’re green … you can handle it. Buster had it. Bumgarner had it. Belt didn’t.

Body language speaks volumes, and if you don’t show quiet confidence in yourself, others are less likely to be confident of you. Jut as the overly cocky attitude can diminish the confidence of others (SHOW me, don’t tell me), the deer in the headlights look doesn’t inspire confidence. And Belt was looking more like prey than predator.

Belt didn’t have a good “public face” – his emotions were on display to the world. Some folks watched Belt cry when he got the word he was moving up and said “Awwwwww.” I watched and said “Uh-oh this kid is gonna struggle with the pressure of the spotlight on him.”

Too often during the season Belt looked uncomfortable. Maybe he was just uncomfortable with all the media coverage. Maybe the sudden rise brougt more pressure to perform than he was ready to cope with at the time. He was in an unfamiliar situation under a microscope, and was struggling with handling it. A serious case of Rookie-itis. He appeared to be physically more prepared than he was mentally.

I saw his body language display more confidence toward the end of the season and into the post season. I think he is coping much better, and feeling better about himself and his ability to succeed. Instead of thinking he will TRY to succeed, he seems to have transitioned to thinking perhaps he CAN succeed. The next phase will hopefully be that he WILL succeed.

If Belt shows up at Spring Training and starts well, I think that confidence will blossom more and it will show in his game. But I also suspect for a few years he will be more vulnerable to mentally beating himself up and would find it harder to, for example, bring himself out of a slump. His challenges may be more mental than physical until he is older and more seasoned.

totalfan62

I guess what it comes down to for me is there’s a possibility that Huff is in the last two seasons of MLB. Some guys lose it more quickly than others and Huffy hasn’t always taken care of his body. I’m not saying “trade him”, I’m saying he’s a candidate if all the other players are producing.

Oswalt! That would be an outstanding addition. He would probably come for one year at $10M plus incentives (12-15M pkg), but deep pitching is a stronger strength that makes the Giants one of the three best teams in the NL. Could we get him?

ClutchUp

Channel:
I am never (apparently) sold on remarks like the Huff one yr on-and-one year-off type of stuff, because it would 😉 require me to follow fangraphs and all the othe LOOGY BS. More smiles.

But using the eye test told me something was wrong with Huff PLUS the obvious fact that his workout program of 2009 to 2009 was not duplicated between 2010 and 2011.

The something wrong gets exacerbated when the culture of an MLB clubhouse goes completely on the down-low. Nobody says anything or knows anything about what our eyes told us or what rumors we’ve heard. “Whatch-talkin-bout-Willis”…

ClutchUp

primetimedonna says: December 20th, 2011 at 1:37 pm ClutchUmpiring was especially bad when you were the mother of a pitcher! ;>)
Funny, didn’t recognize you here from those times in the stands! LOL!

—Funny, when all of us (ya’ll) are LMP – the umpires do/should have ways to shrink their Cauliflower ears, but when one is (now) coaching – they (Umps) take less grief 😉

*LMP-LoudMouthParents

totalfan62

@ JD4SF: great post on Belt! You are spot-on in your assessment of the kid, and encompasses the thoughts and observations we’ve all had previously.

The Giants organization mistreated this young man and made a difficult situation worse. You can argue all you want here, but a pragmatic look would confirm.

It’s incumbent on the Giants to have specific plans to nurture, grow and encourage both Belt and Crawford. If they do we’re the best team in the division. Nuekom would have had this nailed.

primetimedonna

JD4SF

Well said. My analysis is very similar to yours, but as usual you just expressed it much better.

to save your soul, the article makes the point, that if you use mid season as the marker, and layout a ‘calendar’ year to year of 162 games, you get an entirely different impression of Huff’s career performance. These guys took his power numbers, and showed a steady increase over his first 4-5 years in the bigs, followed by a pretty steady decline with 2010 being the aberation, where he had a one year peak. It’s entirely possible, your looking at the rise and decline of a professional athlete who abused his body/conditioning except when he had a fresh start in 2010 after that debacle in Detroit. Last year injury or bad habits brought him back to his declining trend line. In any case, the numbers say trade him midseason if he’s showing 2010 performance numbers to someone who needs a bat, for prospects.

JD4SF

primetimedonna says:
December 20th, 2011 at 9:13 am
434..
Seems to me that both players deserve the chance to be on the team or at least prove themselves, Belt because of his promise and Huff because of his former value to the team.

primetimedonna says:
December 20th, 2011 at 12:34 pm
450..
Agree that it’s always better to trade a player too early than too late, but at this point your trade options for Huff just aren’t there. A legitimate trade may be possible if he comes around, but I don’t see a market for him now.

primetimedonna says:
December 20th, 2011 at 1:41 pm
469..
re: Huff
You may be right with possible trade viability mid or even early season. Guess we will see. Or, he may retire from here like his buddy Pat.

Neukom was here during the ‘mistreatment’….. I still think the team was unprepared for bringing both BCraw and Belt up as early as they did. Injuries made a lot of unusual situations come up.

Now I think it is time to move on from any real or perceived “mistreatment” and try to put last year behind us. If things were learned so we handle promising rookies better in the future, great! But no more excuses or beating coaches and management up. We move on from here with everyone, rookie or vet or anyone in between,carrying their own weight with things being as fair as possible.

I heard that the Cardinals, who are interested in Beltran, had a background check done on him in there exploration of issues concerned with signing him. Concern about his age you think? If he’s 2-3 years older than advertized, that would certainly impact $$ and years in a contract.

Getting Ostwald as a plug in this rotation would be a huge add on. The Mozita would not be needed in the light of day. Jobu would be happy again. Has anyone else noticed how unhappy Jobu is when Zito is on the active 25 man roster.

—Amen, I have been saved, yet NO planking going on over here in San Carlos. Us who: “We Survived Catholic School” call the Timmy-Teb-gizmo a genuflection vs. our required to legged kneel down….

Huff will explode or implode in 2012. I am prepared for either, because it is eventually what the TEAM does not one player. Thanks CC for the kid glove approach with me. I can’t seem to go over to the Complete-Dark-Side yet – but I also used to believe that Chocolate Milk came from Chocolate Cows. 😉

ClutchUp

Bochy and Sabean are obvious traditionalists but perhaps Yeshayah Goldfarb can convince the FO and Field Staff to just re-name the 5th starter as Channel has professed.

We could save a roster spot if the Zito-Mota tandem was just MOZITA. Although in deference to the former Cy Young winner we might have to go with ZiMo for the posterity crud…

One groups opinion. Agree on the Detroit fiasco, but not sure I agree with a decline going back as far as 2005.

Bottom line, I say if he will bring something decent in trade later in the season, go for it unless we feel his bat will help us in our post season! ;>) If he doesn’t catch lightning in a bottle again, and no one bites, he can retire gracefully. Don’t need Fangraphs for that assessment. ;>)

Lefty

Clutch & Foothills: Haylee Belt told me on Twitter that Brandon actually eats like a horse (or a giraffe). Maybe he needs a nutritionist or just to start going on In-N-Out runs with Lincecum (not you, Panda).

JD, I agree that Buster has an unusual steadiness and maturity, beyond his years. You could see it in the Showtime interviews after his injury. He’s always very calm, very thoughtful, very careful with his words. The Giants may have missed that as much as anything after he was hurt. As for Bumgarner, in a sense he bolsters my “pedigree” argument as a first-round, blue chip, can’t-miss guy. His famous burst of temper in AAA right before he was called up suggests he’s not as even-keeled as Buster. Bum reminds me more of Cain, with the competitive drive and the scowl when he’s on the mound.

Belt is obviously more emotional, and I agree that the Showtime bit of him in tears when he made the team probably didn’t help matters at all. I really enjoyed his “Rook” blogs this year–very thoughtful and articulate like Buster is; obviously he’s a bright young man–but I did notice at a couple of points that he was beating up on himself excessively for a few bad ABs.

“Emotional” isn’t necessarily bad, though. Who is more emotional than our Panda? And we love him. I think this is where good management and coaching gets separated from less effective leadership. With 25 players, they’re not all going to have the same temperament. A skillful leader will figure out what different players need (an arm around the shoulders vs. a kick in the pants) and give it to them. In other words, not saying “Belt should be more like Buster” but rather “What does Belt need to be as successful as he’s capable of being?”–Not to “coddle” Belt (or anyone else) but to be smart about helping each player reach his potential.

al oha

The other factor of having an over-supply of 1st basemen is that it not only affects the progress and playing time of Brandon Belt, but of Brett Pill, too.

Although the Giants now have 3 switch-hitters in their everyday lineup, they have more left-handed hitting regulars than righties. Pill’s emergence and proving to management that they may have been wrong in thinking that his Minor League success wouldn’t translate to the Majors, will require them to find at-bats for him.

Hopefully, a hot spring for Huff, Belt, and Pill will make this a good problem to have for the 2012 Giants. It may convince an American League team that they need Huff’s bat in their lineup and will trade a viable starting pitcher or young prospects, for him.

primetimedonna

What! Chocolate Milk DOESN’T come from Brown cows??????

ClutchUp

PTdonna said:Now I think it is time to move on from any real or perceived “mistreatment” …but no more excuses or beating coaches and management up. We move on from here with everyone…

—So pragmatic yet true. I can deal with that. Knowledge is Power and Power is Knowledge.

Hopefully another thing that ENDS is this propensity for “whenever they deem it necessary” – So and So gets outed publicly for “this or that”.

It is SO contrary to the rest of the entire year …. and the BAM, someone (Sandoval 2010/Huff2011/Belt, in the middle) all of a sudden becomes fair game. Make up their minds as an organization…Either be like Ozzie and rip guys daily or have the class that we thought they had (Neukom).

Lefty

Al oha,

Re Pill: Sighhhh. Many of us were screaming for him in July and especially August. Gotta wonder how things might have been different if Sabean/Bochy hadn’t been so stubborn about him.

I really like his bat and his overall approach, and I hope he continues to do some work at 2B in the next few months. If (as many of us fear) Freddy Sanchez can’t play a full season, Pill could be a good replacement at least as to providing some RH offense (and even some pop). He may be the reason why they felt they could let Keppinger go. If Pill’s defense at 2B is not adequate, they can always put in Fontenot or Burriss in late innings but give Pill 3 ABs first.

Keep’n It Real

* All in for the Giants giving that 1 year deal to Oswald. I’ve been suggesting Oswald this whole off-season. If not, I say bring Brad Penny or Aaron Cook for a spring invite.

* Probably a pipe dream, but still holding out hope for Beltran for LF and the #3 spot. Hey…that what I want for Christmas!!

I read various comments about last night’s Candlestick outage. The non-aerial view picture (where it showed how pitch black the stadium really was) didn’t sit well with me…because that scenario is what we (thankfully) avoided at the 1989 WS Game. 22 years later and I still feel lucky/blessed that the sun was out when the earthquake hit.

Last night’s episode was obviously the last nail on Candlestick’s coffin, but as Mark Purdy said on 10/18/1989 (I tried to find the article without success), “The old girl held up when it mattered most”. I have my disdain for Candlestick, but yes she did…and I will never forget her for that.

JD4SF

totalfan62 says:
December 20th, 2011 at 1:52 pm
474..
The Giants organization mistreated this young man and made a difficult situation worse.
=======

I don’t completely agree with this.

Did the up and down routine help build Belt’s confidence? Nope. I suspect the biggest error was bringing him up too fast, then discovering he wasn’t ready mentally and trying to juggle around to improve his situation. Belt didn’t handle the inconsistency well, but at the same time we need to keep in perspective that managing the TEAM means addressing ALL player issues. Belt was just ONE of the players with problems in 2011.

Consider the bigger picture. Bochy had MANY challenges, not just the Huff/Belt situation. He chose to try to get a key veteran back on track instead of turning loose an inconsistent rookie when the entire team was struggling. He found LF as an option for that rookie as an alternative, trying to give the kid more playing time so Belt could find his feet faster.

With so many issues to address – including an overwhelming number of player injuries – on the entire TEAM, Belt became one of many.

====
TF: It’s incumbent on the Giants to have specific plans to nurture, grow and encourage both Belt and Crawford. If they do we’re the best team in the division. Nuekom would have had this nailed.
====

“The best laid plans …” can get derailed. ;-/

al oha

WC,

In post #455 you said, “Sabean is clearly being truthful with “us” about his lack of economic flexibility. Telling the press he no longer even has the authority to go to the board with a proposal to increase payroll was a slap in the face to Baer. Sabean is not an idiot………… I imagine Sabean is as upset with the ownership group as I am that he could not even submit a bid on darvish.”

If Sabean IS upset, he would be like the kid who ate too many cookies and was sent to his room after being scolded that he can’t have any more cookies for the rest of the week.

The limitations put on Sabean’s Spending is a result of his foolish over-charging on the Company’s credit card (other People’s money) on out-of-date fashions and expired-sell-by players.

It’s the bills that are still coming in on players now long past their usefulness or even gone, that keeps the Team from acquiring the player(s) they may really need.

ClutchUp

Lefty says: December 20th, 2011 at 2:17 pm 475..

Good Stuff. The differences between those two are HUGE. I mean come on… Had Buster not been “allowed” to be called Buster he would have been okay with Gerald or Dempsey or Demp or “Hey III”

Trust me Leesburg, Georgia is not Nacogdoches or Lufkin Texas. One went the Juco route; one went to FSU and was an Academic Honor Roll.

Alphabetically one could be A and the other could be Z. Had a Zoo name an animal after Buster, he would have sent a thank you through Jim Morehead of the Giants but declined the appearance. Brandon would have spent the night at the Zoo with the giraffe had Haylee not intervened. One is perhaps the sharpest crayon in the box and the other is a sandwich shy of a picnic.

Bottom Line is there is Room for Both…Both are Ours…Both are Homegrown and Both will be Big Contributors (in their own ways) in 2012 and years to come.

BigJanks

We are in desperate need of a new Baggs blog

ClutchUp

KIR:

Purdy said something similar on page 7 of the book below. I wrote something before bed last night. In revising my thoughts I am truthfully blaming PGE.

PGE lied to the residents of San Bruno UNTIL just recently where the became sanctified and admitted what many already knew. Jerry Hill and Jackie Speier had to put pressure before the admittance.

The Stick brought TOO many memories to be blamed for everthing that was last night. I have dozens and dozens too many to name, but perhaps a few.

I just heard Jim Rome bash Candlestick (dump, tenement, etc) and no one can dispute the truth of some of that.

On the other hand, just this morning I told my best bud in Stockton that once the new stadium is ready and the ‘Stick is destined for destruction, I have to go back one last time to say good-bye.

Lots of memories of great days at Candlestick, warm days and/or cool nights. Bet y’all have some too.

ClutchUp

BigJanks says: December 20th, 2011 at 2:42 pm 430..We are in desperate need of a new Baggs blog.

Amen, but its been worse (at times). Maybe Baggs can break the Roy Oswalt story…

al oha

CU,

Referring to Belt as, “a sandwich shy of a picnic”, is a little presumptive and harsh, don’t you think?

Being asked to play a position other than that which you played on your rise to the Major Leagues, is a leap that is asking much for a Little Leaguer, much less in Pro Baseball. If that doesn’t get one out of their comfort zone, nothing else would. This would be understandable if he weren’t obviously the BEST DEFENSIVE FIRST BASEMAN, TOO. Bochy playing Huff the ENTIRE YEAR at 1B, because he felt he was on the verge of breaking out, likely cost the Giants a return to the Playoffs, among other things.

If anyone is “a sandwich shy of a picnic”, it may be Bochy or Sabean.

Lefty

Clutch @ 2:36: “Brandon would have spent the night at the Zoo with the giraffe had Haylee not intervened.” It was Six Flags Discovery Kingdom (FKA Marine World), but yeah. LOL.

Gotta say the video of Belt with Baby Giraffe Brandon was super-cute, and Belt’s Rook blog on meeting Baby Brandon was about the happiest I heard him all year…

And you’re right that Posey wouldn’t go within ten miles of that…SO not his style.

Still remember when they asked Sandoval at the beginning of the season if he’d be sporting a thong now that he’d lost all the weight, and he grimaced and said “I don’t think so.” Not HIS style. 🙂

ClutchUp

al oha says: December 20th, 2011 at 2:51 pm

Okay Bochy and Sabean could surely fit the sandwhich shy definition…I was referring to “In comparison to Posey’s upbringing and schooling”

I have no issues with C- or A+ students. Some kids study VERY hard and are destined to receive C’s, others can do very little and get A’s.

His time spent under Augie Garrido will pay dividends and you are correct … played 58/61 games as a first sacker. In JC Ball he was a LHPitcher and a DH.

Whatever definition we all used last year of his trials and tribulations, we all know that either it affected him or he let it happen. Either way it was REAL, and is WLeague and other prep work will help avoid a repeat cuz the Giants Field Staff are not going to change their approach…

al oha

I am not one who would ever defend or judge an athlete’s academic IQ, especially without complete knowledge of their background. And baseball players as a whole, would not be anywhere near the upper tiers of the list of IQ’s by occupation as a whole.

But when it comes to BASEBALL IQ, I would rate Brandon Belt well above average for rookies. The fact that he is considered one of the Team’s best baserunners is a testament to this, because he is better on the bases than many players who are faster than him. His plate discipline, willingness to take a walk, and ability to go to the opposite field with an outside pitch, will become more evident in the coming months, and this can be derived from his lifetime batting statistics. His defensive play at 1B is as good as one could hope for in a player likely to be your First Baseman for the next 6 years.

When it comes to Baseball IQ, there is no doubt that Buster Posey is a rare young player. But, having more players with high Baseball IQ’s on your team, can’t be anything but a major positive for a brighter future.

“Via Andrew Marchand, the Yankees bid less than $20M for Yu Darvish. The Rangers won the right-hander’s negotiating rights with a $51.7M bid, so the Yankees weren’t even in the same ballpark. This morning we heard that they submitted their bid with the idea that he could fall into their laps if other clubs were tapped out this late in the winter, but obviously that didn’t happen. Marchand says the Yankees just weren’t sold on how Darvish’s stuff and makeup would translate over from Japan, and I guess you have to be sure if you’re going to invest nine-figures.”

Have these guys gone broke, or just found out where they hid the sanity. Alex Rodriquez, the gift that keeps on giving, and giving, and…

al oha

Hey Clutch,

You must have spent some time here in the Islands, because your knowledge of things Hawaii is beyond the norm.

“For Leones del Escogido, batting .300 (30-for-100) with a .395 on-base percentage and .470 slugging percentage as he saw time at first and the corner outfield spots in 28 games.”

The Wisdom Cow

Al, you blame Sabean for ownership using a hard cap? for not even allowing him to make a proposal? After revenue went UP, way UP?

And can the “organizational” mistreatment of Belt please be corrected. You guys are like spin doctors. It was Bochy that stuck with Huff. It was Bochy that kept Belt on the bench, that criticized and put pressure on him, that made the trips back to the minors a necessity.

Bochy said the right things before and then did the opposite, many times. I spent weeks writing of him as a liar and pointing to the specific quotes. It will remain Belt’s obligation to play his way into games. With options, VETERAN options, regardless of age and ineptitude, Belt’s leash will be short. FAR SHORTER THAN HUFF’s.

“Alphabetically one could be A and the other could be Z. Had a Zoo name an animal after Buster, he would have sent a thank you through Jim Morehead of the Giants but declined the appearance. Brandon would have spent the night at the Zoo with the giraffe had Haylee not intervened. One is perhaps the sharpest crayon in the box and the other is a sandwich shy of a picnic.”

al oha says: December 20th, 2011 at 3:43 pm 471..Hey Clutch, You must have spent some time here in the Islands, because your knowledge of things Hawaii is beyond the norm.

Lived there on and off for parts of 6 years with an uncle who would take us to the old ball yard (Jack Hiatt) and on the way home would know where to drive by and pick up some of the greatest – warm malasadas.

The old YMCA for 1.99 pancakes, and bus rides from Nuuanu – through old town, greatest haircuts/hot towel (eat your heart out mainland) and eventually end up down on Kalakaua Avenue to hang out. The extended family liked to eat at a steak house at Ala Moana Center, The Jolly Rogers on the strip etc.

Always then trying to pick-up Giants games on the Coconut Wireless that also had some legendary DJ. Uncle eventually left endowment fund for a Dr. Fergusson at Hawaii-Pacific-Health/Straub Center.

Best of Times!

ClutchUp

The Wisdom Cow says: December 20th, 2011 at 3:57 And can the “organizational” mistreatment of Belt please be corrected. You guys are like spin doctors. It was Bochy that stuck with Huff.

—TWC: My take is Bochy-Sabean are connected at the hip. Neither does much w/out including the other. Live in the same building. Wives are best friends. Mrs. Bochy mid-wife for Mrs. Sabean (6 boys now)

—I wish Belt had played for Decker before the up-down-up-down-up.

Belt jumped from AA to the Big club. Did not play for Decker out of the shoot and I think that would have been huge for the maturation process.

Lets play if forward. 2011 is not coming back and doubtful that 2012 will see the bad repeats of all the myriad of Belt experiences.

ClutchUp

al oha: WoW a real blast from the past for Hawaii-Pacific Baseball

2012 Baseball Coaching Staff – Benny Agbayani

Did Benny once hand a caught ball to a fan with only two outs?

Lefty

CU (and others),

There’s a famous saying: “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

I think why I (and others) have trouble looking only forward is that I’m not convinced that the past has been learned from (yet). The handling of Belt–and many other personnel issues–was frustrating at the time, and I haven’t really heard any acknowledgment of those mistakes. On the contrary, on the “In the Clubhouse” show last week, Sabean/Baer were saying “We had a lot of injuries and we still won 86 games.” Both statements very true. BUT…

With a few different decisions at key junctures, the Giants could have been in the playoffs and may have gone quite far once there. Even more troubling, it is no sure thing at all that we will be able to retain either of our amazing aces one they are free agents. That dark outcome, if it happens, means that what happened in 2011 won’t stay in 2011–the repercussions could last far longer.

I don’t think it’s too late. The window of opportunity is still open, Belt is still young, the old awful shortstops are gone, and so is Aaron Rowand, thank God. But if management doesn’t at least look themselves in the mirror and say “We made mistakes and missed an opportunity–let’s figure out what went wrong so we don’t do it again”–well, see the famous quotation I started with.

my speculation is that if those things are said, you and I and other fans won’t hear them. No one, here anyway, has any clear idea how honest or self critical the baseball staff is with itself, in private. I would also speculate, given Neukoms fate, not many self critical comments are made to Herr Baer, the care bear.

Lefty

CC,

Yes, I’m sure you’re right. Further, I’m sure they could care less how frustrated we are or that some of us have “trust issues.”

The optimist in me wants to believe they’ve learned some things because they’ve committed to Crawford at short, are saying the right things about Belt, and are going with their own youngsters rather than signing old declining free agents. (Yes, I even see the retention of Emmanuel Burriss as a positive indicator–I know others don’t share my view of that!)

Time will tell, of course.

al oha

WC,

I wouldn’t blame Sabean for not bidding on Darvish. That’s totally on the shortsightedness of current Ownership and the inability of the Marketing Dept. to come up with and show them a plan to take advantage of a HUGE MARKETING OPPORTUNITY that could change the Giants’ financial AND on the field, Fortunes for decades to come.

The fact that Ownership is not allowing Brian Sabean to spend money on Free Agents that would better the lineup, is likely a result of past mistakes he has made and EVERYONE in the Giants’ Nation has to live with. But it is Ownership who are directly affected in their bottom line. With Big Money Negotiations sure to come up in the near future regarding their core players, there is no room for huge mistakes anymore.

If Ownership doesn’t trust Sabean’s judgement, maybe it’s time to find someone more competent. I would.

al oha

CU,

Jack Hiatt is your uncle? I remember getting his autograph on a baseball, back in the day. As a kid, I used to hang near the Giants’ parking lot trying to get Willie Mays’ autograph.

One time, they opened the gates to let a player drive his car out. We edged closer to see who it was. Tito Fuentes opened his window, just a crack, enough to drop out a stack of signed pictures of himself. About half of the kids went to pick one up. I couldn’t care less. It was the 2 Willies, Juan, and Orlando that I was after.

Jack Hiatt was a really nice guy and a solid catcher too. I liked him alot. I had the impression that he was a better hitter than Haller.

I was persuaded by Kuiper’s comments on Burriss at 2B, the he has the talent to excel at the position. His ‘rhythm, stay on his toes’ monolog was pretty interesting. Burriss has remarkable range to his left, and the straight ahead, bad bounce problems the kid has, are ones that are typical for a young 2B and can be overcome.

Lefty: There’s a famous saying: “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

That saying is a truism, however in the marathon that is a major league baseball season; “they” often frustrate the fans who believe whole-heartedly in that saying. The old boy network, save the Dodgers occasionally hiring of the Kim Ng of the world, will always bend towards tried and true methodologies of decades past, even if sigh, they don’t by our standards even work anymore.

The Belt scenario surely had a description if you will: Awkward, Random. Terrible + 12 additional adjectives. Sadly though none of it matters publicly.

Like CC said above, there will be no public outward display. Neukom was the only TYPE of Giants employee/investors who would even fathom making such a public admission.

I’ve coached under Head Coaches that have screamed at Players to “man-up”, and have yelled “you’re a grown-a$$-man” while the whole time I am saying to myself quietly = “No they aren’t”.

Cronyism is just masked in different ways now but the professional game of baseball on “how they handle” YOUNG men has not changed much at all. Smokeless Tobacco has changed; Per Diem has gone up; Shower Water pressure is better; Female reporters access in the clubhouse is obvious (grrrr, I don’t condone) and so on. But, but, but, players are still yelled at too grow up, man up and yada, yada.

You Mama Bears would have a field day as on Staff Shrinks 😉

ClutchUp

al oha:
Sorry for that one confusion (Hiatt) was meant to mean he was with the Giants in Hawaii, I forget what capacity. Jack is still alive, my uncle is not.

The Giants Park (AT&T) figures in the discussion of the role of parks in competitive franchises and attendance. AT&T, in 2006-7, was one of only two new style parks built after Camden Yards earning a profit. Parts of the book are available free at Google Books.

ClutchUp

For all you MamaBaggers rooting for sons and sons of sons during the respective games, if there ever comes up, you’ll have the correct rule:

This could happen at 2nd-3rd and Home if its a force play, but if and when it does occur it usually happens at first base. Note, the same does not apply when a runner is tagged, in that case, the ball under control must be in the hand or secured glove.

================

“…When tagging a base, a player may use any part of his body (e.g. foot, hand, shoulder) as long as he has secure possession of the ball in his hand or glove at the time he touches the base.”

Because a properly worn glove, like a properly worn shoe, is part of the player’s equipment and therefore considered part of his “person,” it’s a legal tag of a base.

😉

JD4SF

Lefty @ 484
In other words, not saying “Belt should be more like Buster” but rather “What does Belt need to be as successful as he’s capable of being?”–Not to “coddle” Belt (or anyone else) but to be smart about helping each player reach his potential.
============

+++++++++++++++++

al oha

Seeing Ken Henderson on that baseball card reminded me of a question I had regarding the Parade Float w/ the past misc. Giants on it. Does anyone know who those various players were? Was Henderson one of them? I was on Montgomery St. But didn’t recognize any of them besides Jeff “one flap down” Leonard.

pacman68

Sabean did one thing right. Do not bid on Darvish. Every Japanese pitcher who comes over here is supposed to be the NEXT big thing and as soon as the league catches up with them. They tank. Look at the history. The Giants need a solid pitcher. Roy Oswalt wants a one year deal. Sign him Sabean … don’t be stupid! He will pitch out of his mind at AT&T.

SIGN OSWALT SABEAN!!!

JD4SF

Cody Ross has lowered his contract demands from 3 years to 2 years. Should the Giants be looking at him again?

al oha

Darvish pitched very well against Major Leaguers 2.5 years ago at the World Baseball Classic. He was only 23 years old then. He has added more pitches to his arsenal with better command. He will be better than most 3, 4, 5 Starters on MLB rosters.

Oswalt will be another overpriced, old vet, that even the weak hitting Giants have beaten multiple times. You seriously want to sign him now that he is nearly washed-up?

Cody Ross? Let it go. The Giants don’t need a sub-.250 hitting outfielder with no wheels and declining power. Unless he’s offering a Burrell-like $1 million/ 1-year contract, can we just move on? Cody hit some timely huge HR’s, surprised even himself. We’ll appreciate it forever. He got a ring. We’ll see him in the future at the reunion.

Walter Guest

Apropos of rookies:

Charlie Finley had more baseball smarts than any owner in his era. He once opined that a contending team had to be able to add a good player every year. A team trying to catch up had to add two a year and that, he said, was really hard.

See how simple it is?

He was probably talking about what we would call a 2 or better WAR player. The average farm system might have three of these at any one time; perhaps one player in fifty or more. Finley’s formula assumes the loss through deterioration of skills of one player a year.

The Giants added their one good player last year (Vogelsong) but lost two (Huff and Torres) hence the disappointing season. They need to add two next season to catch up. Maybe Belt will be one this time and one of those outfielders will surprise.

That’s one way to look at it.

totalfan62

My question of the day: When will the Giants finalize contracts with Timmy and/or Cainer? This is the elephant in the room that gets most of my attention.

Discussions should start with Cain, IMHO. If he gets to spring training without a contract it becomes 50/50 we lose him. Discussions should START at 4yrs/$75M–that’s the market for a top 10 NL pitcher under 30 years old, and he’s worth every dollar.

The market for Lincecum is even more defined. It’s $20-25M per year for three years, with maybe an option for a fourth. Doesn’t lock him into anything long-term, and gives everyone some stability and reward for previous efforts. Big investment. Worth every dollar.

If our penny wise/pound foolish ownership can’t see the sense in signing both they better decide quickly which way to go. Bumgarner is also an elite pitcher and he’ll be big dollars very soon, further clouding this picture.

From a positive viewpoint, this could also clarify direction for the next five years: invest heavily in elite caliber pitching and build a good young team (low salaries) behind them. I vote for that, and I bet a lot of you do as well.

I too want Cain and Timmy for Christmas. There are twelve days of Christmas (until January 6).

I thought it was interesting in that In the Clubhouse show where someone (Twitter? Audience?) asked about long-term deals for Sandoval, Bumgarner, and Posey. It was said (Marty Lurie, I think?) that Bumgarner is probably next in line to get a long-term deal to buy out his arb years and maybe a couple FA years. Posey would be a cinch if it hadn’t been for his injury, but at this point it would be premature. Sandoval still needs one more year to show he can manage his “plate discipline” (dinner and home), but then he’s a good candidate for a multi-year deal, too. I suspect Pablo will get a nice raise this year, and he deserves one.

Jstreet

This place, the last few days, is like a stable in which all the old, rotting manure and funky stuff has been swept out and replaced with fresh straw. And fresh ideas. Some good horses in the stalls. Thanks, gang.

Parade float? The one when they arrived in SF, or the WS of 2010? Henderson and Jeff (please call me Jeffery) Leonard were decades apart.

What am I missing?

primetimedonna

Lefty @10:46

Thanks for the updated info. Haven’t been able to catch “in the Clubhouse”…..dealing with my family room issues since it looks like Santa’s workshop has exploded in there! Will be wrapping till the wee hours tonight. Appreciate you passing along the info.

J Street @10:54

Breath of fresh air, isn’t it! Different opinions can be discussed in a reasonable manner…….who knew?!?!

Just an aside, the Brian Stow liability claim against the Dodgers may be in the same ballpark (no pun intended) as the teams market value, and larger than the $600MM of team indebtedness. Has it occured to those at the ‘nexus’ that Mr. Stow may be the part owner of the Dodgers when the dust settles.

primetimedonna

Channel @11:16

We have the media right where we want them…..we like being underestimated then sneaking up on those nasty boys in blue and the snakes!

ask him about the concept of urothermography in cold water while waiting for a wet suit to get warm. The first step to power surfing from the get go.

primetimedonna

Oh yeah! Definitely an issue when you surf in Northern California. My son is law lives in LA and can’t wrap his head around surfing where you need a wetsuit! One of the reasons my daughter can’t get him to move up here!!

She does root for the Giants down there, and she and her daughters wear the Black and Orange with pride!

Nate’sFanMom

I just read one of those classic, parallel universe “analysis” on The Bleacher Report.

The author was bemoaning the lack of power, then goes on to say that the 2010 team got plenty of power from the likes of Cody Ross et al.

What happened to 2011?????? Wasn’t Ross on that team?? Burrell??? Huff?? All guys who can hit you a timely HR?????

It’s as though 2011 fell into a black hole.

The guy just needed to say: I wanted Prince Fielder and Carlos Beltran rather than insult the fans’ intelligence.

Doubtful that Monday nights issues came EVEN close to the initial and subsequent crisis of 1989. I’m guessing this just adds to the Sticks perverted charm.

Although I don’t agree with everything Kuiper states/does (Could have left the Giraffe thought go by in Milwaukee) – His idea about the Giant’s playing ONE game or a DH at the Stick (July 4th) actually made me smile.

By the way (please) No disrespect to the Sherry Davis’s and Renel Brooks Moons of the world, but located on the very beginning of the link is THE voice of the PA announcer that day. THAT is what a PA announcer should sound like. Of Course Vin Scully is the best baseball radio/TV announcer and RIP Bob Sheppard was the best PA person on the planet.

Channel: I hope you are correct in your assumption that contract talks are progressing with Cain and/or Lincecum’s agents.

I guess most of the big contracts we’ve heard about so far this off-season have been free agent signings. All well and good, but the lack of information raises concern.

Two big contracts, appx $40-50M per year, and it makes sense to make that investment. The new ownership, profit taking, Larry’s in charge…all combines to make me nervous.

Lefty says be patient through the 12 days of Christmas (to January 6), good strategy that I will try to maintain.

primetimedonna

totalfan62

Hopefully this is one time when we can believe the FO at the Giants. We’ve been told that the primarily goal this offseason is to lock down Cain and Lincecum. But, you are right about the “perfect storm” combination making for nervous times.

Hopefully Lefty’s patience can rub of on all of us.

ClutchUp

channelclemente says: December 21st, 2011 at 11:43 am 544..prime,
I could not agree more. Being a front runner and a Giant is like inviting a piranha into your wet suit.

Bravo because one can’t be one in the same. There really is no such thing as being a Giant baseball fan and being a front runner together.

*Possibly would work with the New York Football Giants but not our SF team(s)

The definition of a real SFG fan is clear to me. One roots for the players that walk through the doors each year. One has an extra warm feeling for our home-growners, and even more “warmness” for guys like Buster.

Unless we’ve had guys like AJ, or the John Rocker types, or had someone in trouble “like Monta Ellis” allegedly is, then my only concerns turn to perception, when or if I think someone is “not hustling”.

2010 was engulfed with newbies both at ATT and here on THE Blog and hundreds or so circling the Comcast Live Post Game Set out at Willie Mays Plaza, making most of the dialogue between Papa-Bip-Estes et al impossible to digest. I never understood (1) the attraction and (2) Why they don’t rope off the area.

Most of the OG core were on the Bullet Train or in our cars heading home (for work the next day) while/and listening to the radio rap.

Just going from the last $$ related contract/arbitration negotiation Lincecum was involved in, one day it was just done. He cut that 2 year, $23MM deal without stirring a wave in 2009. Who knows how it will turn out, IMO Cain will be the tougher nut to crack. The Yankees already have him in the budget for a FA bidding war, no pun intended. He just reaks ‘backbone’ of the rotation with Sabathia, as far as they’re concerned.

ClutchUp

Omar Vizquel says he plans to play in 2012, isn’t returning to the White Sox and would “go now” if the Giants offered him a one-year deal…

😉 I’d give him 1 year. Having Omar in ST mentoring Craw-Burr-Font and all the others would be worth the price of admission.

Watching Omar painting, and singing romantic songs in english and spanish about the Love in Sedona to the young/old talent that is Spring Training = Priceless 🙂

“Cain will be the tougher nut to crack. The Yankees already have him in the budget for a FA bidding war, no pun intended. He just reaks ‘backbone’ of the rotation with Sabathia, as far as they’re concerned.”

I gotta think Yankees and others thinking that thought. After six stellar years in our rotation we know what Matt Cain brings to the mound every fifth day, and we would be foolish not to lock him down for 3-4 more years. I’ll let go of this for now, but after the holidays….come on Baer/Sabes et.al….GET IT DONE!

Even more from the East Coast on the diplomatic situation in Beltranostan.

“The Jays demonstrated with Darvish that they have money to spend. Obviously, pitching is a major priority for them. With a weak free agent market for pitching right now, they could end up turning to hitters. Carlos Beltran would be an improvement over Edwin Encanarcion at designated hitter, and they’ve been connected to him recently.”

“The main question to be answered over the remainder of the offseason is whether the Yankees will be constrained in their spending this offseason, as a consequence of their alleged goal of getting the payroll under $189 million for 2014 (the austerity plan). Alternatively, another possibility is that the Yankees simply don’t see much value in this offseason’s free agent or trade markets, and are instead waiting to make a splash in the excellent free agent class in 2012 that could include Cole Hamels, Zack Greinke, Matt Cain, and several other solid rotation options (the “screw austerity” plan).”

NFM @ 12:25…well, I guess the BR writer was right as far as it goes. The lack of the long ball was a huge difference between 2010-11, but you’re right that the personnel didn’t change much. But what did change–wow:

Uribe and his 24 HRs–gone
Posey and his 18 HRs–gone before the end of May (and his power numbers were down before that)
Burrell and his 20 HRs–mostly gone with injuries

Unproductive but not gone:
Huff–down from 26 HRs to 14
Torres–down from 16 HRS to 3(?)
Ross–didn’t play a full year in 2010 but 2011 HRs numbers were low

Partial offsets:
Much better year by Sandoval (13–>23 HRs)
Beltran’s 8(?) HRs with the Giants

In total, that was the biggest difference in the offense. They weren’t much better in other ways in 2009-10. (Remember how they were leading the NL in GIDPs in 2010?)

pacman68

So nobody here would sign Oswalt to a one year deal? You guys are all stoned so you better start sharing.

Lefty

pac,

I absolutely would sign Oswalt to a one-year deal, but I don’t think the Gs are going to spend that kind of money for another starter.

When you’re pinching pennies so much that you’re making a Sophie’s Choice between…uh…Jeff Keppinger & Mike Fontenot, I don’t think there’s a Roy Oswalt hiding in our Christmas stockings.

Anti-Lasorda

All this talk about potatoes and gravy and oatmeal has me hungry.

I like Clutch’s idea of inviting Omar to Spring Training on a minor league deal if he wants it. Same for DeRo… (We know DeRosa doesn’t. He was hoping someone back East willl pick up the idea.)

No more post from Baggs, I’m sure he is in Chicago already.

There will be no more moves from Sabean until the arbitration contract are all signed. He’ll look up and see what’s left in the kitty and then try to pick through the rubble for a 5th starter, a RH hitting SS, and/or 4th bonafide OF with a RH stick but not until he has a better idea on the asks and answered for the seven outstanding cases.

In those 7 outstanding contracts, there will be 3 or 4 multi-year deals to be worked out. I would consider Panda (4 guarenteed + 3 option years), Vogelsong (2 guarenteed + 1 option), Timm-eh (4 guarenteed + 2 option) then Sabean can go shopping with the projected $5M available OR hold that for flexibility around the deadline.

Cainer will not done until spring, after all that dust settles, and Cain, will undoubtedly wait to use Lincecum’s contract as a starting point.

“You think this is 1 and 1A, pay me like Tim and prove it”

It’s not hard ass, it’s smart business. If no deal before opening day, I would expect Cain to be shopped in July. You have to regardless of the standings. If we use Latos as a guieline you’re looking at 4 or 5 prospects to reload the farm and $20M to go sign a free agent in 2013 though from what I recall that class is pretty thin as ridiculously long contracts have been a trend the last few off seasons. (Anybody thinking the Brew-ha-ha’s are regretting that 10 year extension to steriod boy Braun?)

I vascillate between confident Cain will get done, and utter panic that he won’t. The truth is probably somewhere in between.

In the land of the 7 – 10 year contract, you have to build from within so Cain to reload the farm might not be the worst thing. Signing anyone to the 5+ type of deal is just plain foolish…

OK Got it. I took it as I should get a job their and knowing the real problem in the whole bank bailout was paying off all the AIG insurance on the bad mortgages….. it was the hidden secret nobody talked about.

I don’t want to personally associate myself with the likes of them and would rather pay the premium to have Lloyds offer the insurance so I had a reasonable expectation of actually recieveing payment if and when said player with the 7 year, 126M contract decided to go windsurfing around the Farallons while wearing a wetsuit that had previously been used as a blue whale’s femine hygiene product.. okay, bad visual…..

Actually CV Starr begat AIG. Starr is still in business selling high risk insurance. If I remember right, old man Greenburg, the father of the AIG CEO, was Cornelius vander Starr’s driver. I wonder if the current Greenburg and young Mr. Zito would like to share a wet suit?

Need to fly you in to speak to some of boys on our HS and College Teams.

Dr. Ken Ravizza has nothing on JD4SF and JD is probably much cheaper!

JD4SF

Jstreet says:
December 21st, 2011 at 10:54 am
542..
This place, the last few days, is like a stable in which all the old, rotting manure and funky stuff has been swept out and replaced with fresh straw. And fresh ideas. Some good horses in the stalls. Thanks, gang.
====================

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From the perspective of someone with decades of experience with barn and pastures full of horses … looks to me like effective pasture and stable management has prevailed! 😉

Jstreet says:December 21st, 2011 at 10:54 amThis place, the last few days, is like a stable in which all the old, rotting manure and funky stuff has been swept out and replaced with fresh straw. And fresh ideas. Some good horses in the stalls. Thanks, gang. From the perspective of someone with decades of experience with barn and pastures full of horses … looks to me like effective pasture and stable management has prevailed!

@Clutchup – I remember the famous wife swap of Kekich and Peterson. As I recall it worked out better for Peterson than Kekich. Talk about your “one-sided” trades!! LOL

Mavo

Did anyone see the pathetic segment today on MLB Network about the Cousins/Posey travesty? They basically said that it was totally fine what Cousins did and all but called the Giants cry-babies! I found it sickening!

The only one who defended the idea that Cousins did not HAVE to take out Posey was the old catcher Dave Valle. He pointed out correctly that Posey was IN FRONT of the plate and Cousins went inside the baseline to clothesline Posey.

I was extremely disappointed in former Giant Brett Mayne … who basically defended everything Cousins did and said the injury only took place because of Posey’s bad positioning. BS!! Cousins had a clear path to the plate and there was NO reason to go inside the baseline headhunting!

I’ll always think Cousins is a punk for what he did. I really do not care if he is a SF native or played at USF … he’s a punk in my book! If I ever am lucky enough to recover my health enough to shout like I used to I will boo him every time he appears in my ballpark! But granted what he did was legal.. but that does NOT mean it was NECESSARY! You would think that fellow professional players would respect their opponents and take the open plate rather than take out the catcher with a dangerous collision. If Posey had been blocking the plate then Cousins was well within his rights to take him out. But these complete fools who say Cousins HAD to take out Posey because he was turning back to the plate are hallucinating IMO. The Giants had coached Posey to be IN FRONT of the plate so he would not get hurt. He did as coached and the idiot Cousins went out of the baseline in a “legal” but extremely DIRTY play!!

And I would say the SAME thing if one of our players went out of the baseline on a headhunting mission. NO run is that important to jeopardize a player’s life IMO!!

The rules HAVE to be changed before a player … either a runner or catcher is paralyzed or maimed seriously. If the NFL and the NHL can change their rules to better protect their players there is no reason baseball cannot do the same thing. But you have these old fossils, like Torre, who think “that is just the way the game has always been played and there is no need to change it” If baseball always felt that way they would not have batting helmets or new rules around the bases to protect players.

Lefty

Mavo,

I’m getting tired of Cousins whining to reporters that Posey hasn’t called him. He did it in the MLB interview and in a nauseating AP article by Janie McCauley back in October. Every time he does that, it brings out haters who want to vilify Posey. Talk about blaming the victim.

If someone intentionally knocked me over, breaking my leg and tearing my ligaments such that I couldn’t walk for months, couldn’t be there for my family, had to have three surgeries, couldn’t work at my job, and had to worry about my future livelihood, you can bet I wouldn’t be thinking about how I should pick up the phone and provide “closure” to the person who injured me. Rather, I’d be getting ready to testify at his felony assault trial and filing a civil lawsuit.

Because Posey was injured on a baseball field, he of course doesn’t have the legal remedies I would. Under the circumstances, I think he’s taken the high road. He has never said one bad word about Cousins and has said in interviews that he doesn’t hold a grudge. That should be enough.

Maybe Posey doesn’t pick up the phone because he doesn’t know what to say. “It’s OK?” It’s not OK. Posey went through months of pain, it caused great stress to his pregnant wife, and major harm to his team. “You did what you had to do?” Some people think that, but many don’t. Posey is entitled to his opinion about what happened: It was legal and Cousins surely didn’t want/intend to hurt him, but it was also unnecessary and caused Buster great harm. That is a legitimate and reasonable interpretation of th events. Maybe Buster’s just too honest to get on the phone and say things he doesn’t think or feel. Sometimes saying nothing is the wisest course.

Finally, and I’ve said this before, Cousins has never apologized. He regrets that Buster got hurt and wishes him well, but he believes he did the right thing. He is also entitled to his opinion, and he shouldn’t have to apologize for something he doesn’t believe was wrong. But it’s also wrong to criticize Posey for “not accepting Cousins’ apology.” You can’t accept something that hasn’t been offered.

I don’t have a need to vilify Cousins or hope for revenge, but I don’t feel sorry for him, either. Just like Lt. Pepper Spray here at UC Davis, a split-second decision not only caused others harm, but it changed Cousins’ life foreve, too. Choices and actions have consequences. Adults accept that and try to learn from it. Cousins made his choice, and it had grievous consequences for Buster Posey, his family, and his team. It is right and just that Cousins experience consequences, too, and I’m not talking about death threats or violence. But some emotional discomfort and some negative opinions? Yes, he deserves that. Posey, the innocent victim, got far, far worse.

Foothills Ryan

Good morning.

Jstreet has reminded me that I should clean out the horse stall. Thank you.

Hank Schulman has reminded us that the Giants will look for another Vogelsong on a minor league contract. Here’s a list of FAs you can scroll though and sort by position:

I remember. In fact I think I posted a link a while back how Matt Damon and Ben Affleck were going to make a move and one of the “traders” was trying to stop it. I also commented on how funny it must have been for those lifelong Boston Red Sox fans to come up with the idea…and laugh how they were going to make money and zing the hated Yankees at the same time.

I agree with both of you. People can argue about the rule change all they want, but no one in their right mind can say that Cousins didn’t launch himself at the Posey.

Cousins probably wants forgiveness (via phone call) from Posey because he knows the truth and people here at home look at him funny. To me…if he said, “Yes…I went after Posey because I am at the bottom of the totem pole and I needed to make an impact…BUT unfortunately my actions caused this horrific accident to Buster”…then I would respect him more. I think people would also “get” the idea that he’s a fringe player trying to stay in the big leagues.

I don’t pay attention to the “blow hard” ex-players that take themselves too seriously as current broadcasters. Half the time they’re told what to say anyway.

Looking forward to seeing Cousins on the field next year (when he plays)…goes 0-4…and Buster hits a large homer that wins the game. Scoreboard!

Keep’n It Real

Foothills Ryan @ 730am

I have been pushing for Brad Penny and Aaron Cook for weeks now. Your Brandon Webb suggestion was a new one that I hadn’t thought of.

I hate to say this…whether Sabean planned this or not…the Giants are in a really good position to get pitchers of this ilk to come and try out. They know about Righetti….they know about the rest of the staff…they know about Volgelsong’s success last year…and they know Zito is a weak link in the staff. To me…what better place to get exposure that you are still a viable pitcher?

I’m personally kind of agnostic on a rule change to protect the catcher. I think competent umpiring could solve the problem, but I have to agree about that MLB travesty last night. You have to be blind not to see that 1. Posey didn’t block the plate and 2. Cousins took him out purposfully because he thought he’d gloved the ball. I’d have called Cousins out and dared anyone on th Marlins to protest. If they had,I’d have thrown the whole damn team out.

Foothills Ryan

Yes K.I.R,

Where the Phone Booth is a plague to Free Agent hitters, the Phone Booth should be an a Siren Song to Free Agent pitchers looking to rebuild their stock.

The Nationals signing Mark DeRosa: Do they know what they are getting ? It’s about about the veteran clubhouse presence I suppose.

you’ve got a really good point. Pitchers shopping for a new team are starting to see Righetti as the new Duncan. His guys add pitches, learn to corner pitch and pitch to contact, develop some secret way to cut down on flyballs that aren’t outs (it drives fangraph guys crazy), a get and stay healthy.

Keep’n It Real

Foothills Ryan @ 1125am:

“Where the Phone Booth is a plague to Free Agent hitters…”

Hopefully another World Series Championship will change this and the Giants becomes Lakers-like; where hitters want to come to here to win that ever-allusive ring.

ClutchUp

To Piggy-back Mavo, Lefty and others:

—I know/knew Scott Cousins way before the Posey issues. I knew what he stood for coming from USF and his family background. I also love Buster Posey, not like his wife or family or close friends, but I love what he does on the field as a Giant, love the way he “carries himself”.

—Am I supposed to hate Scott Cousins now? Doubtful. I don’t like what he did in the heat of battle though…but in a sick-way, I understood what happened … what he did…

—Forget Scott Mayne, Google what Mike Matheny said. The Culture of Baseball being what it was – groomed the Cousins/Posey play to be part of their ‘sick’ standards. Machismo over Correct/Incorrect – Right/Wrong.

—The Wounds never healed for Jack Tatum or Darryl Stingley, both now deceased. Tatum was almost always defiant in the play he was involved with.

—This is cryptically what Cousins USF Coach said recently. I think it took a lot for Nino Giarratano to state this: “Deep down in his core I don’t think Scott’s ever gonna be past it … but I think he’s learned how to deal with it so that he could be successful as a human being.”

—As Giants fans I think we should hold the memory-close-to-our hearts, but find in our own individual ways – “a way to also let it go” – otherwise it will consume your soul.

—I still think “almost” every scenario has a greater evil. In this case Major League Baseball condones – condoned that type of play, regardless of the nuances of where in the base path Cousins was not or where around the plate, Buster was or was not.

—Unless Baseball’s Players Union or (god forbid) Congress intervenes, those types of plays will continue except in College and HS.

—In fact if what Cousins did was illegal or forbidden = say he was called out, ejected, player fined/team fined, suspended for X amount of games = Posey would have still suffered the gruesome injury.

The resolution has to come from a higher authority…

ClutchUp

Keep’n It Real says: December 22nd, 2011 at 12:14 pm 631..Foothills Ryan @ 1125am: Hopefully another World Series Championship will change this and the Giants becomes Lakers-like; where hitters want to come to here to win that ever-allusive ring.

😉 Smiling, I am asking that SF Giants and LA Lakers not be used in the same sentence…..

NBA hoops is a sham, from Monta Ellis to releasing Keith Smart after 1 season, to Kobe sobbing due to his tryst in Denver, to players jumping ship – “Just Because”, to LeBrons press conference, to Dan Gilbert vilifying Lebron, to the greatest villain of them all David Stern.

Baseball is America’s Pastime. NFL fans, NBA fans and a multitude of second tier sports would vehemently disagree. Let them disagree.

If you need to explain it to “them”, they are never going to get it.

Lefty

Clutch,

It would be easier to “let it go” if journalists would stop doing “poor Cousins” sob stories. It’s especially galling when the implied message is “Buster’s a jerk for not letting ‘poor Scott’ off the hook” or worse, “It was actually Buster’s fault because he was ‘blocking the plate’ or ‘poorly positioned’–in fact, maybe he should be apologizing to Cousins for ruining his life with his incompetence.” (Maybe Nate should apologize to Cousins for having a strong arm?!)

Here’s the difference between Cousins and Buster: Buster doesn’t WANT to be seen as a victim. He doesn’t want to be defined by this collision. I LOVED the story that Hank Schulman did a month or two ago on Posey where he focused on his babies and on his future not on being angry or sad about the past.

KIR: I agree: I think it would be easier to respect Cousins if he actually admitted that he made a bad decision (for the reasons you said) and said something like “If I could do it over again, I’d handle it differently…”

Also to KIR: I’ve also mentioned Brad Penny and think he could be a nice pick-up for a fifth starter. One interesting name I noticed on the FA list was Armando Gallaraga. What if Rags the “Pitcher Whisperer” could do something with him? He’s young, probably still cheap, obviously talented.

I would agree with most of what you said, but,IMO, it’s the even stronger umpires union that has to deal with this Cousins issue. MLB has essentially no control over them, especially after Alderson moved on. Overnight they could change this. It would just require something they are woefully lacking, integrity.

Keep’n It Real

ClutchUp @ 1222pm:

I am now officially in the EBB penalty box 🙂

I was going to say the Yankees, but that hasn’t been the recent “norm”.

Keep’n It Real

Lefty: I have to admit I don’t know enough about Armando Gallaraga to comment either way. That said, I would have no issue giving him a shot. It would be a nice story for him to find “it” on the Giants…and then pitch great games against the DBags.

ClutchUp

Lefty says: December 22nd, 2011 at 12:35 pm 579..

😉 Lefty, the last person I let augment my thoughts are sports journalists, other journalists, or any talking head that has an opinion that doesn’t measure up to mine, Andy-Baggs, Extra-baggers and especially the Mama-Bear-Baggers 🙂

That’s why I left it open to their “own individual ways”. In the Mama-Bears-Methods – We Do Trust!

ClutchUp

channelclemente says: December 22nd, 2011 at 12:37 pm 635..CU, I would agree with most of what you said, but,IMO, it’s the even stronger umpires union that has to deal with this Cousins issue. MLB has essentially no control over them, especially after Alderson moved on. Overnight they could change this. It would just require something they are woefully lacking, integrity.

CC: If what you say is true, then we’re screwed. The play was gruesome enough, but I had to sit there and watch FatA$$ Country Joe West “act like” …. hey what just happened 🙁

al oha

Forget some of these old, broken down, trying-to-make-a-comeback type pitchers as a better solution to the 5th Starter than Barry Zito.

The Giants should swoop in and STEAL Gio Gonzales from the A’s NOW. He’s a Southpaw. He’s young. He’s really good. Trade prospects for him, …… and Aubrey Huff + Cash. They could afford to give the A’s a good young arm and a backup catcher. The Giants’ farm system is overcrowded with good catchers who may become ready all together in the future.

Another promising Major Leaguer who has never been quite the same due to Umpiring Error. (Although all things point to Jim Joyce being a fine man)

For anyone who wishes: Joyce and Gallaraga co-authored a book. Good Read = ‘Nobody’s Perfect’.

@ Lefty – Rags as “Pitcher Whisperer”= Great description. Rags and Gardy make the perfect duo. One a Lefty 😉 and One a Righty. I had the pleasure of switching seats with a friend of mine. Club View Box for Giants Bull Pen. Rags and Gardy are soft spoken/analytical. Sitting at the railing for 12 minutes with Voglesong warming up and getting to listen to the few buzz words and pearls of wisdom from Rags was priceless.

al oha

Buster Olney of ESPN.com reports that the Athletics are “moving closer” to trading left-hander Gio Gonzalez.
Olney hears that the bidding is down to two teams and confirms that the Nationals are one of them. He speculates that the Red Sox or Marlins could be the other. Gonzalez, 26, is under team control through 2015, so the asking price is expected to be substantial. Bill Ladson of MLB.com reported Wednesday that the Nationals were talking about a package which included right-hander Brad Peacock and prospect catcher Derek Norris.

Keep’n It Real

al oha: Not going to happen. A’s will not trade with Giants. Heck…the A’s would rather trade Gio to anyone in the NL West, just to tick off the Giants.

ClutchUp

Brad Penny – Please God – No!

That small sample size made some wish he is back, but think AJ P, only as a right-handed pitcher….

Gio Gonzalez will soon be, if he’s not already, a number one or two starter in a rotation. His curveball is said to have that Blyleven sizzle when it breaks. He has a 93-95 MPH fastball to go with it. His 4+ walks per game are all that’s holding him back from dominating. In Reghetti’s hands he could be another Lincecum, his stuff is that good.

Trouble is, the A’s are looking for 4-5 B to A+ prospects, to ruin and trade in 2-3 years. The A’s are determined to torture their fanbase, and winnow it down to a size to small to form a lynch mob, so they can sell the team in the dead of night.

Born in San Antonio, grew up in suburban Houston. Live in Sacramento now. In between, I was a wonderer of the wasteland, ala Utah Carl.

ClutchUp

Wonder if Carl is still trying to find that pebble and or is still driving his big rigs…

Lefty

OK, I just got one Christmas present: QB Matt Barkley is staying at USC for one more year!

Not too late to get Timmy & Matt signed…twelve days of Christmas…

JD4SF

Multiple posters sharing their views on the rule that has not [yet] changed, Posey, and Cousins. Well said.

ClutchUp

Eric Hacker won 16 games for the Grizzlies in 2010, then what?
Did he fall off the map or was he a Rule 5 casualty?
WoW 16 wins in a hitters league…and now he’s back…

The Vogelsong Recipe is surely being tested.

ClutchUp

Lefty says: December 22nd, 2011 at 2:17 pm 585..OK, I just got one Christmas present: QB Matt Barkley is staying at USC for one more year!Not too late to get Timmy & Matt signed…twelve days of Christmas…

—WoW, all the expert pundits (hahaLarryKruegar) had Barkley making the big NFL announcement.

I’d forgotten FP was in DC. Compared to the Papas of this local TV constabulary, he was a breath of fresh air.

ClutchUp

CC:

First “winnow” and now “constabulary” 😉 I am humbled.

I’ve been crooning over the loss of FP (and his Mrs) since he left. Knowing Byrnes like I did from his St Francis/Mountain View/UCLA and A’s days, I knew KNBR would make a mistake choosing Byrnes over what Hammer said was a “boring” Ray Woodson.

Then came the worst “cut” of all. Ebaggers bashing my radio-love for FP, saying he was this or that, but you know what, he fessed up on air to his PED use and moved on.

He also was a Half Moon Bay Coastside guy thus I got to bump into him and his “Playboy Playmate” wife Michelle McLaughlin, quite often.

Keep’n It Real

A few thoughts:

* Barkley staying at USC: I honestly had a feeling he would stay after the ND game. He’s got great receivers, a good line, and younger players on D that will be a year older. Matt also seems to hit it off with Kiffin. Barkley will be forever famous at SC if he brings the a National Championship… in year #1 of being free of the NCAA sanctions. Let’s face it, USC is the only West Coast school that has had success against the SEC.

* Gio Trade: There is some out there that think Billy is doing this, so the A’s will be significant if/when they move to San Jose. I still have my doubts that San Jose will happen for reasons I have previously posted. It will be interesting to see what city is “Plan B”.

Half Moon Bay, I used to stay at the Goose and Turret down in Montero Beach every time I was in SF on business before moving here. Great bocce/petainque court.

I thought FP’s call on the contribution Ross would end up making in 2010 was prescient. He was the difference maker in the stretch and FP called what ended up happening on the numbers. Boy do I remember Papas and Urban ribbing him about it.

CU, no Tebowing allowed, it insincere without a cracker and wine.

Lefty

I thought FP was great in all his roles the last year, I still miss him, and I’m hoping he makes his way back to the Bay when one of our guys retires.

Just a few days before he left, he was doing his show live from Oakland, where the Lakers were about to take on the Warriors. FP said, “It’s starting to get really douche-y in here”–meaning all the Laker fans who always overrun the Coliseum. Scuse the crude lingo, but I thought it was hilarious–and something you can get away with if you’re leaving your job within days!

Byrnes seems like a great guy, but I can’t stand him on Sportsphone and am happy when he takes a vacation.

I here FP is doing well in DC at least he was back in the early summer. There was a rumor that some station/team wanted him up in the NY market.

Keep’n It Real

Lefty @ 553pm:

“and am happy when he takes a vacation”

I have a long commute out of the Bay Area every week and used to love listening to FP during my trip. Then came Byrnes and my iPod became my best friend.

Anyway…I tuned in to Sportsphone and someone else was hosting (Kozimor?) and I was thinking “Yeah…no more Monster Drink induced blabber!!”…until a commercial came and the “Sportsphone with Eric Byrnes” intro came on. Damn!

I’m sure Byrnes is a great guy in person and probably a kick on the softball field (even if he just sat in the dugout), but some people weren’t made to host a 3 hour radio show.

Lefty

Barkley: He is not far behind Tebow in spiritual fervor, and I think he really felt like being at ‘SC in the dark years was part of his purpose and that the story was not done being written. He’s a very impressive young man and hard not to like and root for.

I was not thrilled when Kiffin was hired, but he’s done a remarkable job in difficult circumstances, and he’s won me over. From what I’ve read, the players weren’t sold the first year–personality-wise, he couldn’t be more different from Pete Carroll–but by the second year, they’d learned to appreciate him and were on board.

Barkley gave him the news that he was staying last night. He handed Kiffin a Christmas ornament with a picture of the two of them together at a game this season, and on the back, it said, “One More Year.” I’d say the mutual regard could not be higher.

And oh, would I like to see Barkley playing for Jim Harbaugh. What a dynamic dream team that would be.

From what I saw this year (2011), when they had their A game the last half of the season, USC was the equal of any football team in America. Stanford was lucky they played them when they did. With Barkley staying, next year could golden. Didn’t that corner stay as well?

Keep’n It Real

CC: Yes the corner stayed too. The LT, who was Barkey’s good friend, is moving on to the NFL. The USC/Stanford game was a classic.

Wow…I think even I would have taken Beltran for two years for that price tag. Not a bad deal for the Cards. Although it sort of reminds me of when they swapped out Jack Clark for Bob Horner. Just not the same.

For Beltran to sign for 2 years 12M per and the Giants not being the team is an embarrassment and a complete waste of the trade of Wheeler.

Furthermore, the constant faining poverty while not signing ONE Free Agent all off-season C’mon!

They are PROVING that they are not interested in winning Championships. DO NOT be surprised if Cain & Timmy walk away when they can.

Do not stick up for them. This is not Sabean or Baer’s fault it is Ownerships cheapness! How can you have the worst offense in baseball and the best pitching. Yet you do nothing in the off-season but make 2 minor trades for fringe players and ZERO free agent signings!

GO SIGN P. FIELDER!!!

Keep’n It Real

I admit I wanted Beltran, but that no-trade clause would have been a deal breaker for me. His knees are a concern and there would be no AL trade option.

IMO, Beltran has metastasized elsewhere. May he cultivate his stats to his hearts content. He’s better hope the official scorer doesn’t catch on in St Louis.

The Wisdom Cow

LOL, enjoy, StL. He’s not what yout think he is.

Foothills Ryan

Channelclemente,

Nice one on the percentages of reaching the show.

Hello Sportsfans!

Exciting day on the hot stove!

It’s a steep price for Beltran. One that Sabean didn’t want to pay. At least he cut his losses. Wheeler was a huge blow. It was a huge gamble on the roulette wheel and would have hit big, but he lost his big chip. It’s tough, it’s a gamblers world and Sabey-sabes got caught up in the moment and forgot about the future. Not that the the deal was horrible when it happened. It was certainly a defensible move. Just painful in hindsight.

C’est la vie…

Only hindsight can accurately judge the Cards move. Maybe he’ll reward them like Berkman did. Or maybe Berkman and Beltran will combine for 100 games on the DL in 2012 and Wainwright will have a rough comeback from TJ. Maybe Carpenter will need some time in the shop after being such a horse in the postseason. Carpenter was awesome though. Gutty, defined. The Cards could blow up.

But the Nationals have fashioned themselves a nice little roster. The NL East will be a Beast. 88 wins may take the division.

And where’s ClutchUp? Sometimes you slip. You called out Billy Beane and the A’s. Something about Clueless… What are they supposed to do ? They aren’t going to compete. In the meantime, they are stacking their farm system. Going to be one of the tops, again. Maybe they’ll have a Miami spring one of these years and go for it in their brand new HP/Blackberry/Google/Facebook Field.

Peace on Earth and peace out.

Jstreet

Peace on earth, indeed, Foothills. Good take. One other thing regarding St. Louis, they’ll be coming off of a championsip year – and without the manager who brung em. Not an easy task. I think your DL scenario around B & B is pretty realistic. The whole thing could work out for them, but with both Albert and Tony gone, it seems unlikely. As for Beltran and the Giants, yeah it was a good idea at the time, but did not work out. At least we found out about him and cut the loss. There’s no free lunch. And I’m of a similar mind with you on the Nats. Some timely moves, could work.

As for you MitchV, might as well get over it. Yeah the Giants lost a good prospect, but right now that’s all he is, a prospect. Might become a Cy Young, might become a nothing. That’s the chance you take to try to improve at the time you take it.
Have you ever doubled down in blackjack? Odds are you’ll get the card you want (if you’re smart), but when you don’t, you just have to ante up and play another hand.
I never met anyone who won every bet they made. So do we really have to listen to you bemoan the loss of a long gone prospect for another season, or more?

I like the moves the team made over the winter, and when they get the pitchers set, it looks good for 2012. One more thing, Prince is not an option for the Giants. Plenty of 1st basemen already, more on the way, and he’s on record as not wanting any part of this team. And he’s a free agent wanting a multi-year contract now, exactly what the Gs don’t need. Let’s go Giants.

Lefty

I’m with Jstreet and Foothills. Beltran is no sure thing at his age. The Giants could have pulled off the same deal–as someone here pointed out, they could have signed Beltran and offloaded Melky and Affeldt for whatever and come out about even, and next year they have several big salaries coming off the books. They actually could have done this if they had wanted to.

They decided to go younger and faster this year, and it does seem reasonable. I’m so over big contracts to 30-something’s.

As for the A’s, if the Mariners get Prince, the A’s will not only finish in last place, they may be 30 games out by the time Prince, Pujols, and the Rangers’ bats are done with them–with no more good pitchers to stop them. And Jered Weaver, King Felix, and Yu Darvish will all no-hit them. But they will still sweep the Giants in Oakland, holding them to two runs over three games.

Foothills Ryan

Ouch Lefty.

The last time the the A’s swept the Giants in Oakland holding them to 2 runs in 3 games the Giants won the World Series, so I’m okay with that.

I remember it well. I went to the game where Gio Gonzalez started and Andrew Bailey shut the door. Pretty sure Cain pitched that one. I remember the ride home listening to the Doomsday callers on Marty Lurie’s postgame. I was with them, but welcomed Marty’s soothing voice to bring me back from the ledge.

Jstreet

And you’ve learned a valuable lesson there, Foothill. Stay off the ledge, we need you here at Baggarville.

pacman68

So can anyone please tell me how the Giants are going to score more runs this year?

Lefty

Foothills,

Right–when the A’s swept the Giants in Oakland in 2011, the Giants scored FIVE runs. Big improvement.

Yeah, Uncle Marty has soothed us through SF traffic, over the Bay Bridge, and back east on I-80 after many a weekend game.

Just saw Mitch Williams on MLB, playing GM, trade Hanley Ramirez to the Giants for Madison Bumgarner. Would any of you take that deal, and under what conditions?

They still have one more player on the trading block, Andrew Bailey. You don’t need a good young closer when your team is going to suck. And he’s a wanted man. I’ll bet the Red Sox put together a package for Bailey rather than pay off Ryan Madsen. The A’s and the suddenly maligned Billy Bean could possibly grab someone like Will Middlebrooks to play 3B with a brand new rotation acquired from Arizona and Washington. That’s got to excite the harcore A’s fan.

Lefty

I agree. I think Bumgarner’s a year away from being ace-material on about 26 staffs. And he’s young and cheap for years. A three-time All-Star & former batting champion is about the right price, especially at only 27, but he’s immature, expensive, and coming off a bad year.

If Cain & Timmy were both signed for five years or more, maybe you trade MadBum for a premier bat or package (like the one the A’s just got for Gio). But I’d rather keep him and have three aces for years to come.

channelclemente says:December 22nd, 2011 at 5:41 pmHalf Moon Bay, I used to stay at the Goose and Turret down in Montero Beach every time I was in SF on business before moving here. Great bocce/petainque court.

CC: Montara vs Montero, but close enough. Nice B&B. Good impression when starting over with one’s better half 😉

It’s clear Beltran did not want to be in SF. He floated the “we need a leadoff hitter” BS.

So now he has Furcal and SF has Pagan. I like our guy!

Jstreet

Hey Pac Man, can you tell me how Beltran scored us all those runs? Wait, that doesn’t make sense. Can you tell me how he got shown up by base runners advancing to 3rd on shallow flyballs to Natefield? Now that was a sight to behold.
For me, I was very stoked when they got him. But then I never saw the hustle.
They should call him Turboglide – he’s smooth. But no clutch.

JD4SF

If DeRosa continues with the .300+ he had in Aug/Sept 2011, the Nats have acquired a dandy asset.

Mavo

Another day and another tantrum by mitchyman: “Wah … where’s my Fielder???? Wah!!” LOL

This guy thinks the ONLY way to build a team is signing every expensive FA with someone else’s money!

And I don’t recall mitchyman complaining last July when they traded Wheeler for Beltran. Everyone realized it was most likely a short-term rental for Beltran… everyone but mitchyman who wants the Giants to sign ALL the expensive FA’s.

After getting totally burned in the long-term FA signings of Zito and Rowand the Giants have no stomach for another FA disaster… and who can blame them?

Gee, I don’t recall the Giants signing ANY big name FA’s in 2009 and what do you know they won it ALL in 2010! So I’ll trust Sabean’s judgement of how to build a team than mitchyman’s childish tantrums about the Giants not signing every expensive FA out there.

pacman68 says:
December 22nd, 2011 at 10:18 pm
691..
So can anyone please tell me how the Giants are going to score more runs this year?
=============

More emphasis on smallball. Remember AT&T is a pitcher’s park, so this strategy makes sense. Adding more speed to the team was part of the motivation acquiring MCabrera and APagan, per interview with Bochy.

And don’t forget we’ll have Buster and Freddy back. If all players are batting at average we’ll have several capable of 20+ HR, plus more with good wheels hitting the gaps. Expect to see more doubles and triples. We’ll also see more steals.

Set the table and move those runners around. Playing as a TEAM. And the team average age seems to be getting younger. 😉

Mavo

@JD4SF – Agreed totally! Some of these posters here ONLY see big expensive free agents as the solution. They think this is like a fantasy team with monopoly money! As I said in my previous post … I’ll trust Sabean’s judgement on building our team!

Mavo

Baseball is at least 80% pitching and many on here seem to forget that. The Giants have wisely decided to spend the majority of their payroll for PITCHING … and I support that decision fully!

I watched the hated Dodgers of the 60’s beat out my beloved offensively gifted Giants with PITCHING and I will never forget that lesson on what is important in baseball. I am sure many of you do not remember how the Dodgers with Koufax and Drysdale (Lincecum and Cain?) beat out the Giants of 1965 with MVP Mays hitting 52 HRs and McCovey blasting 39 HRs … not to mention we also had TWO HOF pitchers in their prime in Marichal and G Perry! The Giants even reeled off 16 straight wins AFTER the Marichal/Roseboro bat fiasco to take a commanding lead in September … only to see the Dodgers behind Koufax, Drysdale, Osteen, Perranoski et al, with a pathetic offense .. beat us out by 2 games!

Last year’s offensive catastrophe was an aberration IMO … devastating injuries to many key players, (Posey, F Sanchez and Pablo … my word even Beltran missed key games with a bad wrist) … some veterans having bad years … etc. This year’s team WILL score more runs as repeating last year’s offensive futility is just not possible with the talent the Giants have. And the best part is the pitching is INTACT! Losing J Sanchez was addition by subtraction IMO… he was just not mentally tough enough to pitch in the big leagues … regardless of his stuff. The Giants recognized his mental weakness and dumped him … albeit for a quality young player in Melky Cabrera.

JD4SF

Mavo, after years of watching veterans and looking for the bigger bats – which are hard to afford! – I suspect it may take some adjustment for some folks to see the value of building from within, supplementing as needed, and focusing more on a team strategy better suited for playing with Willie Mays Field as your home park.

We had a taste of what it can be like in Aug/Sept playing a lot more small ball, with more speed. It obviously was successful because we racked up a bunch of Ws. THIS is the direction Bochy wants to take the Giants in.

Platinum pitching, small ball with more speed, and multiple bats who can also hammer out some long balls. Take advantage of triples alley, get wheels who can turn the single into a double, etc. I like it!

If we don’t get hammered by Murphey’s Law again in 2012 (knock on wood!) I suspect we’ll be seeing more games in the future that remind us of the exciting run in 9/2011. I also predict we’ll be serious contenders for years to come using this strategy.

JD4SF

I am delighted with the new Giants strategy to build from within and assemble a TEAM well suited for AT&T. I’m now pumped and ready for Spring Training!

Are we there yet????? 😉

★*˚°♥ GO 2012 GIANTS!!! ♥˚°*★

Mavo

JD4SF – I fully agree with your astute assessment of the Giants blueprint for the future!! How many days now until pitchers and catchers report????

We used to always go down for Spring Training for at least a long weekend or more. Now that I am ill we have had to skip it the last three years. But I look forward to going to Scottsdale for ST in the future!

Go Giants!!! 🙂

GFaninTx

Eff Bustran. The coward didn’t wanna come back!
Enjoy midseason knee surgery puta!
You seem to obnly play hard when a contracts on the line! I seriously hope this chump NEVER wins a ring. ANTI-CLUTCH!

Lefty

I agree with Mavo’s “addition by subtraction” comment. The 2012 Giants will be better than in 2011 because of who they don’t have: Rowand, Burrell, Ross, Torres, DeRosa, Tejada, O. Cabrera and J. Sanchez. I don’t hate all those guys, and some of them had unforgettable moments as Giants, but collectively they brought the Giants down last year.

The 2012 Giants will be a promising combo of vets in contract years (Melky, Angel, Freddy, & Huff), youngsters hungry to prove themselves (Belt, Craw, Pill, Nate, Burriss), and established performers wanting to show they can be even better (Buster, Pablo, the pitching staff).

The lack of depth does concern me. However, in Bochy’s brain, veteran depth for the bench becomes unproductive has-beens in the lineup while young players rot. Sabean so far has resisted giving him those options. I’ve seen the old way and can be patient with the new way.

totalfan62

A few random thoughts early on Christmas Adam (you know, the day before Christmas Eve).

**Mitch Williams says…until Mitch finds the right balance of medication no one should listen to anything this guy says. Hanley Ramirez for MadBum? We should not trade MadBum for ANYONE. He is arguably the best young player in the NL.

**Beltran. Good luck St. Louis. He got his last $25M contract and that’s all that matters. Your best chance for your one ring was right here Carlos, and you came up short big-time. Buh-bye.

**The Giants will score substantially more runs in 2012. Buster alone will make that come true, but the other additions and changes to the lineup will make us more exciting as well. I’m looking forward to seeing a lot of hit-and-run, line drives up the gaps turning into doubles and triples, and many more SBs. Bochy will have to modify his strategy a bit and I think he will do that.

**Once we sign Lincecum and Cain…if both are not locked up through at least 2014 before we get to spring training it’s a big problem. We’re built on pitching, they are two of the ten best pitchers in the NL, we have the money…get it done.

To all my Extra Baggs friends, have a wonderful and Merry Christmas! You all have made this blog a great place to visit. Enjoy!

Sans a Belt

Thanks, Total. Intelligent and well reasoned assessment.

Same to you. For me, I wll be loosening mt belt for the holidays (if I had a belt) and hoping my namesake cracks the lineup this year with a couple of bombs to the cove.

Jstreet

So, MitchV, there are your sometimes detailed explanations of how the Gs will score more runs last year. And thanks all, (JD4SF, Mavo, Lefty) for providing the details. Although I think somehow our friend Mvman is only rhetorically interested in the answer to his rhetorical question. Hint to MitchV: over on sfgate, there are lots of shallow, reactionary “fans” who are threatening to hold back their affection from the team if management doesn’t accede to their demands. Maybe you’d find some comfort in that collective hysteria. Some fans. Good riddance, I say.
Bravo to the nightshift. Now get some sleep, just kidding.

Lefty

Totalfan: Merry Christmas to you, too, and a Happy Festivus to everyone!

Mitch Williams: I was literally yelling “No” at the TV when he “made” that trade. I thought it would be fun to see what the rest of you thought.

Barkley: Here’s a nice SI piece on his decision. Shows some of why I admire him so much:

Kiffin: I can appreciate why Tennessee folks would hold a grudge. If any of us got offered our Dream Job but the timing was awkward(!), some of us would stay and some of us would jump at it. I think the fair thing to say is that he’s young and still finding his way.

But it is indisputable what Kiffin’s has done at USC in the last two years. The double whammy of the NCAA sanctions (which seem ridiculously harsh considering what Ohio State got this week) plus “Traitor Pete” Carroll leaving could have buried the program for at least a decade. Not only that, Carroll’s last season (2009) was disappointing, with the Trojans only making it to the Emerald Bowl.

The turnaround from that to top-five team in less than two years is–dare I say it–Harbaugh-esque. Barkley choosing to stay is a big part of that, of course, and that’s why he will go down as one of the greatest Trojans ever. But Kiffin deserves a lot of the credit.

As for Traitor Pete, go Niners tomorrow!

…And, back to baseball: If Timmy or Cain signs today, it will be a Festivus Miracle!

Jstreet

” more runs THAN last year” ….words do count.

Foothills Ryan

Christmas Eve eve ( Adam ?!?) Poll:

Who will have a better offensive year in 2012 ?

Nate Schierholtz or Aubrey Huff ? By any measure: wOBA, OPS+, RC+…

Bapah

I watched many Nats games last year, mainly to see how FP handled the color spot. At first, it seemed there was some stiffness in his work (maybe because he was a newbi), but it improved as the acceptance by his partner and FP’s relaxation increased. MLB.com has its benefits and watching the Nats and a couple of other teams on a regular basis is one of them. Now with good hitters, strong pitching, and some good gloves, I’ll be watching even more on a regular basis.

On another note: What is really going on with Steve Decker? Where does he fit in with the team’s plans? I feel he is a tremendous asset for the organization, but his move, to me, is bewildering. Can anyone shed some light on his place/future in the organization?

Foothills Ryan

Popped the 4th inning of Ken Burns baseball into the VCR (yep still got one) last night to fall asleep on the couch by my wife with the fire dying down in the fireplace. This is the Bambino episode. Got to love that he was arguably the best pitcher of the late 1910’s before moving to the outfield. Ol’ John McGraw apparently had his number in the 20 & 21 World Series. Soft stuff away. The curse on the Red Sox certainly had much to do with then owner’s greater enthusiasm for theatre which led to the wholesale of his team to finance productions. The history of baseball is the history of America. I could listen to Bob Costas wax poetic on baseball for awhile.

Bapah

One other thing. I saw the Mitch Williams spot on MLB yesterday and blew a gasket when he suggested trading SnotRocket for Hanley. Absolutely the most ridiculous statement I have heard on Hot Stove in several years.

Keep’n It Real

My gut tells me that Cain will be signed and hopefully that present will soon be added under Lefty’s Christmas Tree 🙂

Unfortunately, I don’t have the same “warm and fuzzy” about Timmy. I hope I’m wrong, but something tell me he could end up leaving. On the bright side, if the A’s got that haul for Gio, the Giants could really beef up their minor league system *if* they were ever forced to trade Timmy.

Nate’sFanMom

@Lefty 714

Right on the mark. For Bochy, veteran depth equals his starting line-up.

I stand by my previous observation that if our historically superior pitching staff carried a bunch of partying, injuried, and declining veterans to a winning season in 2011, they’ll carry a young, hungry team.

And, adios Carlitos. Maybe your boyfriend will follow you to STL (boards). Was no aficiando of the Giants.

Foothills Ryan

The Haul for Timmy would not be so deep. He only has 2 controlled years. 1 after this year because he’s not going anywhere this year. And the control years are 20 million, not 4-10-15-whatever Gio and Cahill’s are.

But let’s say the Giants are in the tank at the deadline (Won’t happen). Timmy could be dealt for a couple of top system prospects and a throw-in from somebody like the Yankees or Red Sox. Whoever blows them away. More likely to happen next winter, but this is filed under very unlikely scenario.

pacman68

Mavo – You insist that pitching is what wins games but your the biggest advocate of trading your best pitcher (Lincecum). Where do you really stand on this and who would you get to take Lincecums spot?

I’m all for pitching (why i think the giants should sign Oswalt) but this GM has not shown me recently that pitching is a priority.

— Trading your top prospect for a rent a bat that you do not resign. Fail!
— Not locking up Cain soon – Fail!
— Going into the season with a terrible number 5 pitcher who is overpaid – Fail!
— Going into the season with a huge question mark on Volgesong. Is he a one year wonder – Fail.
— Not giving Timmy what he wants. Fail!
— Relying on Surkamp if Zito tanks – Fail!
— Not picking up one certified major league bat that can drive in runs and has been doing it for years. Worst offense in the majors last year and you think Melke Cabrerra and Angel are your answers? – Fail.

ClutchUp

I heard this from former Cal Bears guy Jon Baker, Marlins>Padres, and other former and current professional baseball players. Not everyone is a good interview via TV or Radio, and not every ball player can walk and chew gum at the same time.

That said: Games, Divisions, Pennants, NLCS’s and World Series’s are not won by names over the – their lockers, nor the names on the daily lineup cards. Games are won by basic execution, remarkable athletism, fundamentals, timeliness, unselfishness, anticipation, teamwork and chemistry of average and gifted men who “Want-To” – rather than “Wanna” – succeed.

Yes there is a degree of luck, as in right time right spot, but luck can also be earned or seemingly acquired by the harder workers…

You also said something about having another BB (in addition to Brandon Belt), right?

ClutchUp

Beltran would have NEVER signed the same contract with SF that he did with SL. To surmise otherwise would be foolish. He did not want to be here.

Yes Wheeler was a casualty, but “it’s not coming back” folks!

Listening to Ted Robinson last night on KNBR made me remember what a true professional sports talk show host really sounds/sounded like. Not only did Ted do play by play for SF and the Mets, but is in a class of his own regarding tennis. Replacing Starkey was not the easiest segue in the world and changing partners after only one year (Plummer to Davis) had to take time.

That said Ted Robinson said Beltran is NOT any teams #1 guy, he’s a number #3 or #2 at best. He doesn’t even want to be a number one, as you can see it in his day-in-and-day-out game.

I keep hearing this rumor that Hernandez may be available in Seattle. Heard it again yesterday on MLB. I wonder what a flip with them for Lincecum would look like as a proposition.

ClutchUp

Sabean and Evans might be able to get an “early answer” on the Lincecum vs. Hernandez gizmo by attending the SF vs. SeaHawks FB game tomorrow as Timmy will be there in his Beany outfit and SeaHawk Green.

Post game (together) photo Opp=ASmith in his Black’nOrange SF Giant hat and Timmy-Jim in his SeaHawk Green Beanie

there aren’t many I’d consider an even up value for Lincecum, all things considered, but Hernandez is one. If Lincecum wants to come to roost in Seattle, as some have suggested, maybe something can be worked out.

ClutchUp

Here’s a DVD for you Mavo…

—Soul of the Game
The color barrier has yet to be broken in Major League Baseball. Everyone expects that either Negro League greats Satchel Paige or Josh Gibson will be the first to break the color barrier. The Dodgers instead decide to go with Jackie Robinson.

I forgot that there was former 2002 Mojo for our number 55 joining the Big Club after all:

===With an injury to the Giants’ fifth starter, Russ Ortiz, Lincecum was called up from Fresno to make his first major league start on May 6, 2007, against the Philadelphia Phillies.===

—I remember how Philly rocked him initially in his first game. Kudos to 55, Dad Chris, Rags and Gardy on turning a thrower into the VERY best!

Lefty

CU,

More BBs: Bobby Bonds and Bob Brenly!

Note that Timmy’s debut date is also Willie’s birthday!

mitchvman

Mavo 706. and on and on

You, only again attack, because you are a Naive Idiot who doesn’t understand the simple act of reading comprehension and of course Baseball.

Not shocking that you are wrong once again. Also not shocking that you result in personal attacks when you don’t understand, like a 4 year old who doesn’t get his toy!

The point (missed by you) is the Cheapness of the Giants. The Blind faith in the Sheep that do not call them out on it! The “Band-Aid” replacements they plug in and hope for a miracle (like 2010). Yes, as talented as our pitching is/was and as timely as they all clicked in October. The Giants had a lot of luck on their side to win that championship.

Now they have the Worst offense in the NL with the best Pitching. They showed in 2011 that it doesn’t work. For you to profess 80% pitching is again Naive. They HAVE the money but chose/choose not to use it, rather to line their pockets. Fielder is 28 an 8 year deal makes him only 35 when done. He is never been hurt and hits around .300 with 40 bombs. At 35 how much drop would there be? Any? In that last year probably .272 32HRs. You don’t want that? Of course not, because your little finger with all of its “supposed” baseball knowledge doesn’t get it!

As you certainly don’t read now you didn’t read in July. I was upset at the trade “as is” then too! I felt they Giants should have gotten Paulino & Reyes too. Or better yet Bourne and/or Pence. Beltran straight up for Wheeler was a mistake which I clearly pointed out many times in July and after. You were busy pontificating how you knew more about baseball than everyone on this post has forgotten about! Here is your obligatory LOL!

The point of my previous post yesterday which is lost on you, is not Beltran the man, Truth is I don’t want him. It is simply what he ended up going for. The Giants couldn’t pay that? Sure they could have! The FACT that the Giants have not signed ONE free agent this off-season and how this is going to affect Timmy & Cain’s decision to stay here.

How does that work for you if Cain leaves next year? If Timmy leaves the following year? Well, at least we built a team from within. Just like a small market team. Oh wait we are a LARGE market team! (Not Yankees or Red Sox) certainly in that next tier though! Then we (may) have hitting but no pitching. But at least we built from within. Joke!

The Giants should be embarrassed! Mavo should be too but he doesn’t understand the concept.

Great article from Henry Schulman on the The Gate (Chronicle) he is absolutely right. The only thing I would change is that he gives too much credit to Sabean for the moves when, if Ownership gave him the green light he would sign Fielder tomorrow.

Wake up People! Zito was a stupid signing based on his already decline and Rowand was silly too. Huff was not a bad signing just bad execution. That doesn’t mean they should not sign the “sure thing”!

Fiedler is a once in a 20 year thing. Age, talent and difference maker!
Don’t forget what his presence does for the rest of the lineup. The get to relax and do their jobs. F. Sanchez will be lucky to play 80 games this year. Crawford will hit .220. The Giants will win or lose 1-0 2-1 again! May or may not make the playoffs. Go ahead though, be happy with the mediocrity. Don’t strive to be better. What good would that do. You may win a championship or two. Can’t have that!

bullship

Well nothing new after 700+ posts.

I agree with mitchv, Pac and others…were are all the runs? Where is the power?

And as mentioned, I am not a big fan of FA signings. But this giants roster smells of CHEAP.

As of right now the Giants will have to be very fortunate in order to win the west. One of their top 4 pitchers is likely to have a ‘down’ year ( just law of averages) and other than posey getting 300 more AB’s….( and no guarantee he is a good as he was pre- injury)……the Giants actually have worse slugging, hr, BA, obp numbers than last years team-

At AT&T, he batted .250, with an OPS of .571. It’s not his venue, and, IMO, never would be. His power alley is RCF, that’s a graveyard at AT&T. He was built for parks like the Rangers play in, not the Giants.

Foothills Ryan

I find it hard to be “cheap” with a payroll sitting between 125 & 130 million, up from opening day payroll 2011 $118,198,333 & OD payroll 2010 $96,277,833.

Compare the roster to the talent on the DBacks and you’ll find that while it is close, the Giants have more talent.

He just isn’t a fan of AT&T and I don’t think Boras would ever let him kill his brand here in any case.

The Wisdom Cow

And of note, the above does not include the “on paper” value increase in the organization itself since it was purchased. Any of the owners could cash out for an obscene profit at any time, even if they lost millions on payroll each year.

ClutchUp

John Shea’s best days are over. His best stuff is other people’s stuff with a different delivery aka Shea-Hey SF Chron column.

Schulman has been around since????
See if you can “pick him out of this video”…around 6-15 sec into it before he moves out of the way of the Thrills moment 😉

a factoid about the Giants that is unique to them among teams playing in post ‘Camden Yards’, modern parks. They are the only team to have been profitable since they moved into the new park for every year since the move. AT&T, and that venue is absolutely unique, there are no others like it.

mitchvman

Wisdom Cow

Do not forget the 100 million dollar check they received from Comcast 2 years ago that they haven’t spent yet!

The Wisdom Cow

Sure it got posted earlier, but I liked seeing a fangraphs article echoing my displeasure with the “just enough” paradigm of playoff contention.

Yes, your stats are accurate. However it is a small sample size on one “road-trip” a year. When it becomes your home field you get more used to it. Also, there is the other 81 games. Again, remember what his presence does for the others in the lineup! The threat is always there.

Also, forget what you (and others) think of Schulman the person. That does not have anything to do with what he wrote today. This article he wrote today was, indeed, spot on!

Foothills Ryan

channelclemente says:
December 23rd, 2011 at 2:30 pm

“Just to hopefully tamp down this Fielder love some more:…”

My Xmas present to you CC is to remind you of SSS assumption errors. No returns. Re-gifting is fine.

Foothills Ryan

Early returns on the poll of the day not so good.

Who will have a better offensive 2012: Nate Schierholtz or Aubrey Huff ?

I don’t know Schulman or Shea, accept by what they write. Over the years, the factual errors and inaccuracies, and Chron spin as well as tendency to dramatics and melodrama just about says it all. They work for a tabloid, and their work suggests they are either comfortable there or trapped.

Sorry Ozzie the Wizard of Oz, but that was a punk-a$$ sucker punch you threw at Will Clark after he took out your 2base partner Jose Oquendo. You should have let Will and Jose take care of things, but NO you had to throw a sissy punch

Candy Maldonado, I hated it when you attempted to catch balls with your “slide” but you will always be a GIANT for being first to the Pile.

Lots of Good Giants have worn 21 (Freddy currently) but you Sir, wore it with pride my man!

it’s not SSS that drives the conclusions I’ve come to, it’s his hitting/power to field characteristics. I look at where his power is focused and use the events he’s experienced at AT&T to provide data to test the hypothesis, not form it. Over 3 years, I would expect variance to be seen as he matures as a hitter. You don’t. He just doesn’t perform well at AT&T, and I think 50 or so AB over 3 years would scatter in what is a Poisson process in this sample size, IMO. This is the same rationale that is employed to project he is likely to hit 30-40 HR in the Ranger ballpark. He has no more innate power than Sandoval does, IMO, maybe less.

mitchvman

Channel 757.

I understand and do not disagree with your assessment.

However, even a blind man can hit a target every once in a while.

Schulman did that today!

Hope is not eternal it is predicated by hard work and dedication.

ClutchUp

Foothills Ryan says: December 23rd, 2011 at 2:43 pm 753..Early returns on the poll of the day not so good.Who will have a better offensive 2012: Nate Schierholtz or Aubrey Huff ?

Ryan: I neglected to take part in the poll of the day, soley because I was not sure the intent of the poll, meaning for me ONLY, it doesn’t matter what their respective stats are as long as they contribute to Giants Wins, and hopefully not in some hollow fashion. If Huff walks to start an inning and moves to second on a wild pitch, I expect Nate to be able to “hit a ground ball to the right side” to move Huff to third. So Huff does not get a time at bat, and Nate is 0 for that at bat, but little things win games.

Batting averages “can be” like Yards Completed by a NFL QB.
Its not how many yards one throws for – it’s did your team Win…
Its not how many hits a BB team got, it’s did your team score more runs than the opponent.

I’ll say that the Huff and Nate duo put up very similar numbers with Huff hitting more HR’s than Nate and Nate having more assists than Aubrey 😉

ClutchUp

Schulman says: I was chatting with a person in the Giants’ front office this week when he acknowledged that the first time the Giants lose a 1-0 game in 2012, the howls will be be deafening….

IMHO, that was a cheap journalistic thrill gleened from the very first time Alex Smith threw his first pass and it fell incomplete during this past strike shortened training camp.

It’s journalism at its worst (at least that line above). Anybody could have written that scenario by Henry. So what, the first thing you do as a major league organization when you lose to the opposition 1-0 is determine if your team was beaten by the other team or did your team lose to them.

Did the other teams hurler strike out 14 and give up three meaningless singles, or did the other teams hurler last 5 and then the opponent staffed it the rest of the way….Did SF strand 11 runners, did they fail to get a runner home from 3rd – four times with less than 2 outs? If so then SF lost to the other team… but SOME times the other team is just better than “we are” in one run games.

Schulman is making the obvious abundantly clear. I still remember that idiotic yelling from what I call the peanut gallery, in 2010 at close losses, and wins. The important parameter, IMO, for a jounalist to have picked up on was the unique way the Giants reacted to those close games. By the time October rolled around, they were the mentally toughest team in baseball. All Schulman could drone on about with Shea was about how much better the Phillies were, so he missed the real story. He just had to conjur up his inner Max Mercy so he could say ‘I told you so’, rather than look at that incredible team execute the opposition. After Atlanta, anybody with any sense of baseball knew they were going to be impossible to beat.

…and the asteroid impact may be tomorrow, given that Mayan calendar warning. I personally think the Giants are behaving responsibly, but each to his own opinion. I wouldn’t let Beltran in the same state with a team that was intent on winning, but then again, that’s my opinion.

imagine a ‘Boy Named Suh”, although, if I had a comment, I’d keep it to myself, all things considered.

mitchvman

Channel 771,

I don’t want Beltran either. That is not my point. I don’t like what he signed for with the Cards and that we we have signed no one!

This is Sports. There is no tomorrow!

Responsibility to a certain extent, Yes! Again, the Giants have money and would in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM be irresponsible fiscally and/or otherwise if they signed Fielder. Simply this is about being cheap and greedy hoping for the best. Instead of going for it!

They own the team and are entitled to a buck! Yet we are the fans who live and die every day with the accomplishments and failings of our team!

Responsible? This is not the Banks with your mortgage again it is Baseball!

Will everyone just shut up about these 1 run games! What killed the giants last year was an August funk. That and losing their number 2 and 3 hitters before the middle of June.

We were 33 and 22 in 1 run games. That’s a .600 winning percentage or 97 wins in a regular season.

We were built for 1 run games. Dominant pitching (Starting and relief) along with a potentially great defense. We have a potential GG SS, speed in the OF even if Huff mans LF. Remember Barry playing LF? Yeah- we survived that.

Our team fell apart after the Phillies came to town. Beltran got hurt and was out for almost two weeks. Once he came back, it took some time for him to regain his stroke and by then it was too late.

I’m glad we didn’t shell out 26M to Beltran. He is a guarantee for 120 games or less in the next two years.

I (like everyone else) would love to get Fielder. But the reality is that we are saving our money for Timmy and Cain. And if you had your choice between those two and Fieler…you’d take Timmy and Cain. It will take 22M per year over 10 years to get Fielder. That’s what he will get. I don’t want to take that risk. It’s more risk than reward. Sure it will be great for the next couple of years…..but in 5 years when we’re all complaining about his weight and lack of productivity, well then it’s not worth it.

Stay true to what we are doing. Build a team with good defense and excellent pitching. A team that believes in what they are doing. A team that comes up together.

Remember the first part of last year before all the injuries? Remember when there was no game over until it was over? All the come back victories. I always believed that we’d win even if we were down 4 going in to the ninth.

We have a special team and I don’t want to start shelling out albatross contracts to guys that don’t deserve it. Pay OUR guys the money they deserve. We will need to pay Pablo, Posey and Bumgardner 50M each before we know it.

Sabes has laid the groundwork down. A plan for the future that won’t compromise us in 8 years. I have faith that (like when he first came in 97) every year we will be in the hunt to win the division/wild card. Then our Pitching will take over in October.

1997-2005 we were in the playoff hunt until the final 2 weeks of the season.

97- Division title
98- Wild Card play in game
99- Out of it with 10 games to play
00- Division title
01- Out of it final weekend v Dodgers (bonds HR weekend)
02- WC to WS
03- Best team in baseball only to lose to a hot Marlins team (like us last year)
04- Lost on final Sat to Dodgers and Astros beat Rockies on Final Sunday
05- Went in to 4 game series in SD with a chance to take division. Won first game on the JT triple to Giles in CF. Lost the next with a GS by Fasero to Hernandez and season was over with 10 games left

06-07 were the last bonds revenue years

08- re building

09- we surprise everyone and are in it until final 2 weeks which catapults us to

10- Division Champs….WS Chamos

11- We are in it until final week (WC spot)

So everyone needs to calm down. We have a strong game plan and road map ahead. I have all the faith in the world in Sabean (Look at the track record I just laid out for gods sake!) and Boch to get this done.

We will win the division and take care of business in the playoffs again

The mistake EVERYONE is making is that it is NOT an “either or thing” There is no need to “save the money”

The Giants can sign Fielder and keep the pitching (Timmy & Cain) too! They have PLENTY of money!

The Kool-Aid has been drunk and most are not seeing the Forrest for the trees.

Simply answer this. Would you like to have Fielder on your team? You do not have to lose anyone! My assumption is Yes, Please!

…and there you go. They are trying to convince you that you cannot have your cake and eat it too. In this case you actually can. The Giants are just pushing the plate away. Truth is tomorrow when they want the cake (Timmy & Cain) they may be gone too!

nightall. night brandons! what do you want for Christmas? An OBP of .375+.

JD4SF

mitchvman says:
December 23rd, 2011 at 2:34 pm
752..
Do not forget the 100 million dollar check they received from Comcast 2 years ago that they haven’t spent yet!

and @ 773 said

This is Sports. There is no tomorrow!
=========

I’ll have to stand on the side of fiscal responsibility with short and long term financial planning … or you become correct and “there is no tomorrow” for the Giants because the funds aren’t set aside to keep our key players and fund the farm system with talented prospects.

I’d greatly prefer to see financial and TEAM stability – keep a solid core of players – and be in a position to be competitive every year. Spend too much now and that has potential to greatly weaken our competitive status going forward.

If the Giants budget was NOT planning ahead to keep Timmy, Matt, Buster, Bumgarner, Pablo – the list goes on – and also invest in future Giants so we HAVE a future … THEN as a Giants fan I would be very disgruntled and consider owners irresponsible.

As far as I’m concerned … good to know there *is* $100M lying in wait to address negotiations with Timmy and Matt, acquire more players if/when needed, etc. If instead the Giants spent a chunk of that on a Big Name contract for 2012, we still have no guarantee of another WS title, and wouldn’t have near the financial potential in 2013+ to continue to field a competitive TEAM.

I feel the Giants are in a good position with players and funding to be competive in 2012 and beyond.

JD4SF

BigJanks @775

+++++++++++++++++++++++

BigJanks

Mitch is the guy that makes 60K a year then goes out and buys a 20K car, a 60″ flat screen, a King size bed, new couches and goes out to dinner every night because he has the money.

Why not budget accordingly to ensure that you are financial set for years to come?

Don’t live for today because tomorrow will come. Be smart and take care of yourself responsibly.

Mavo

@Big Janks … you NAILED it again!!! Not that immature impatient buffoons like mitchyman will EVER understand logic. Mitchyman was still in diapers when I was living and breathing baseball … and this idiot says pitching is not 80% of baseball????

Kudos also to JD4SF for a logical explanation of fiscal responsibility that apes like mitchyman could NEVER understand!!

The Giants HAVE an excellent plan in place going forward. The LAST thing we need is another long-term albatross contract for a big name slugger who doesn’t even want to come here. So let the uninformed, uneducated masses like mitchyman flaps their lips and whine about how cheap the Giants are … and let Sabean keep this team building for LONG-TERM contention … without just trying to BUY another championship. We saw last year how well THAT worked for Boston. And I predict the Marlins will find out that Reyes was a bad deal with his fragile legs. The smart money is on the Nationals who are building an outstanding YOUNG pitching staff and now they added Gio!

Last point I’ll make is … Why have all the other 29 teams not jumped at Fielder if he is such a BARGAIN??? This guy is an injury time bomb waiting to go off IMO. Boras obviously wants at least 160 million and I don’t think he’ll get that. What if he loses ANY motivation to stay in shape once he gets a huge payday? His dad, Cecil, who was not even as out of shape as Prince, was DONE in the ML at 34!! Other teams and GM’s see what a risk it is to sign this out-of-shape guy to a long-term contract … but mitchyman cannot understand why his pet FA is not signed yet!! LOL

Mavo

Tonight on MLB Network the SAME idiots who said two days ago that they don’t think a rule change to protect catchers and runners at home plate, were all wringing their hands about how tragic it is that Justin Morneau of the Twins has been affected by post-concussion syndrome the last few years! The SAME idiots that bemoaned Morneau’s situation, that happened in a 2nd base collision, could not see the obvious inconsistency of their previous discussion of Posey’s collision!!! What a JOKE!!!

Do these guys realize how much more dangerous a home plate collision could be … or how it could paralyze a player? If a player is paralyzed he will not just be unable to play again … his life and all of his family’s life would be changed forever. There NEEDS to be a rule change to avoid home plate collisions … PERIOD!!

Mavo

For those of you who do not fully understand how important pitching is to baseball just check out the scores of most All Star Games when the BEST hitters take on the BEST pitchers. I once heard that the cumulative batting average of all the All Star Games is about .250. And that is for the BEST hitters in the game!

Also check out the way Vegas sets the odds for any ML game … they always base it on who is pitching … not who is hitting.

My first taste of how dominant pitching could shut down any hitting came at an early age when I was a 12 year old. We had a GREAT Little League team that went undefeated during the season and we rolled thru the first few tournaments until we were playing in the California state championship game. Our team AVERAGED about 10 runs a game all year against some good pitchers. Then we faced a team from Sacramento and they had this HUGE pitcher that threw bullets and looked scary from only 44 ft away. He shut us out! I got the only two hits off of him .. two doubles. We lost 1-0 when they eked out a run against us. This was the SAME season, 1965, that the offensively challenged Dodgers beat out my offensively stellar Giants team. The lesson was burned into me … in baseball … it’s PITCHING … PITCHING … PITCHING!!!

Jstreet

Did anyone mention Bobby Bolin? Another SFG BB.

al oha

And who could forget another BB ………………………

Brett Butler.

Ron Mexico 1980

Can ALson Smith(who IMHO is the greatest rookie sack artist since Jevon Keave ) have a BIG game toim afternoon in Seattle? That place isloud for sure

Ron Mexico 1980

Got Heem! My bad I meant ALdon Smith

Mavo

Bobby Bolin still holds the SF Giants record for lowest ERA at 1.98 in 1968 The Year of the Pitcher. He threw hard and was a good Giant!

Lefty

I was pretty young when Bolin was pitching, but I can’t believe I missed Brett Butler! He and Bobby Bonds–maybe the only legit leadoff men the SF Giants have ever had? Am I missing someone else from the 50s/60s? If Gary Brown turns out to be the real deal, he needs to change his first name to something starting with a B.

BigJanks

What is the all time post record for a Baggs Blog? Are we getting close?

Ron Mexico 1980

Niners are going to win today 17-7~!

Jstreet

Big Js, I think it went into the 900s one time a couple months ago. Maybe Baggs will sweep down the chimney for some milk and cookies – and diamond dirt.

Mavo, I did not realize how outstanding B Bolin was until I looked at his stats. In 1966, he was under 2.95 ERA, over 225 IP, 10 CG, etc. And still only 11-10 W-L record. Even then, typical Giant numbers. Wonder how many of those CGs were in losing efforts?

I read a brief description from a Fantasy Baseball site about Giants players, where rating a guy as to his potential upside season over season drives the analysis. Baumgarner has head and shoulders the biggest upside among Giants players and prospects. In terms of future value, he is the most valuable Giant.

Bapah

CC
That’s why Mitch Williams’ comment about trading him for Hanley was SOOO absurd. Badass Bumgarner is ours, just about the only player I’d throw my body in front of the bus for, if traded.

Keep’n It Real

I am in total agreement about the importance of pitching in baseball, but… let’s remember that the Giants had an even better pitching year in 2011 and all of watched other teams playing in the post-season.

Remember that pit in your stomachs, when you were watching inferior pitching staffs in the World Series…because the Giants couldn’t score enough runs? We officially have “proof in the pudding” that fantastic pitching cannot win without s-o-m-e run support. I know for me personally, this is why I wasn’t happy that the Giants didn’t open their “purse strings” to bolster their hitting lineup.

Yes…Buster and Freddie will be back…Pablo corrected his vision and is working out…and Aubrey promised to come back in shape, etc, etc. But..does Melky have 200 hits in the NL this year or even come close? Does Pagan flourish in SF after feeling the pressure to replace Beltran’s productivity in NY?

I am putting my baseball faith into the hands of my fellow EBB posters; who feel that Melky/Pagan (and the rest of this lineup) are enough to get the run support our pitching staff needs. That said…and this is a fair question…what is the back-up plan if the Giants do continue to lose 1-0 and 2-1 games? I have no answer, so I open this up to you folks…

I’ve got to admit, Williams is fast becoming a strutting, peacock of an ass. He’ll say anything, no matter how absurd, to grab some camera. I watch Hot Stove for the ticker.

KIR,

Backup plan, given where the money/strategy goes, ‘pitch better’ and be faster with good defense. Apparently some guru’s are looking at Sandovals 2nd half numbers (2011) and forecasting, believe it or not, .330, 25 HR, and 110 RBI’s in 2012.

To those that have the hope/impression the Giants will either score enough runs to dominate the NL West or win every close game, sorry. Remember 2010, that’s the formula, stagger, fight to squeeze into the post season, then try and run the table with pitching, defense, speed this year, and timely hitting. We are David, not Goliath, dig out your seat belt.

Those are fair questions. I’d add to your list of possibilities that Brandon Belt, Brett Pill, and Hector Sanchez could all help the Giants’ offense if given opportunities this year. As I said yesterday, it’s all the 2011 deadwood that isn’t on the roster anymore that gives me some hope…

Keep’n It Real says:
December 24th, 2011 at 12:35 pm
808..
We officially have “proof in the pudding” that fantastic pitching cannot win without s-o-m-e run support. I know for me personally, this is why I wasn’t happy that the Giants didn’t open their “purse strings” to bolster their hitting lineup.
====================

Remember how platinum pitching and playing more small ball with more aggressive base running with better speed put the Giants on a roll in Sept? This is how the Giants will get more run support, and is the strategy for 2012+. We’ll also have better D up the middle, hopefully reducing the runs for the other team.

We’ve added 2 more with speed and decent bats. Buster and Freddy are returning. Pablo will be hitting both sides again. The list goes on. We have several who can hit the long ball, with 20+ HR/yr. Add all that to more table setting, steals and RBI … and we have enough run support to score more in the W column.

JD4SF

JD4SF says:
December 24th, 2011 at 2:06 pm
816..
Remember how platinum pitching and playing more small ball with more aggressive base running with better speed put the Giants on a roll in Sept?
=======

IIRC the only player we won’t have from that Sept run is DeRosa, who was a superb table setter hitting something like .350+ in Sept.

mitchvman

JD4SF 785.

Ick!

That way of thinking is the problem. You and others have this linear “Horse-Blinder” way to believe what happens/is happening in the economy and/or your personal economy is the way a Sporting team should be run. Absolutely not true! There are too many variables that are unknowns unlike the steady projections of a regular business.

Steve Jobs is dead. Apple moves on almost unaffected. Product is pushed the iPhone 4S is a success regardless.

If Timmy & Matt leave what happens to the Giants? If Posey is done? If Sandoval eats his way into oblivion? Brown, Panik, Belt all flop? Exactly!

Again this is Sports. While you certainly build for a future and hope for the best, you live for the moment because you have ZERO idea how players will develop. Whether they leave or get injured , etc.

What you also are missing is that the Giants have the money to sign the players while developing the future. Again they are just being cheap! This is not brain surgery!

ClutchUp

Lefty

—Can’t believe I keep leaving those two BB’s out of the equation ^$*%&

JD can defend herself, but truthfully her her analytical take on the current situation makes more sense then just beating a dead horse. It is not going to happen > Fielder is not coming to Baghdad by the Bay anymore than Frank McCourt is going to retain the Dodgers, or Bryan Stow is going to return to normal.

I don’t think you can plan on Timmy & Matt leaving, Posey being done, Sandoval eating his way into oblivion and Brown, Panik, Belt all flopping. Those you named are being monitored by staff (Posey/Sandoval) and Brown, Panik and Belt (Scouts/Cross-checkers/minor league coaches)

mitchvman

BigJanks 787.

I can explain it every way till Sunday. But I can’t help you understand

Take your analogy,

“The guy that makes 60K a year then goes out and buys a 20K car, a 60″ flat screen, a King size bed, new couches and goes out to dinner every night because he has the money.”

The part that you are not connecting, Which I understand because it is not your reality, is this.

Take your analogy and substitute one number.

“The guy that makes (6 Million) a year then goes out and buys a 20K car, a 60″ flat screen, a King size bed, new couches and goes out to dinner every night because he has the money.”

That is more on par with the discrepancy the Giants make and what they spend. Do you now see the difference? Do you now see how everything is possible? The Giants are misleading people/fans that they are “poor”. A “smaller” market team. IT IS NOT TRUE!

Embarrassing for you how you constantly profess your extreme knowledge of baseball eclipses all that have come after you. Yet in every post you prove your Naive sense of the most simplest of concepts.

Remember this is the guy who is the past,present future President of the Miguel Tejada fan club. His “Supreme” knowledge about building a team includes has-beens, journeymen, and Band-Aids. Wait for the future which may never come. Yeah, don’t sign the 28 year old perennial All Star (Fielder) who hits around .300 and hit 40 bombs each and every year. Also plays above average defense and gives you lineup a presence that relaxes the other hitters and makes the opposing managers think.

If Mavo is GM he resigns Tejada for 3 years 40 million. What A Maroon!!!
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLIDIOTLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO!!!

Your continued idiocy is boorish and you are, as always, a complete joke.

Stick with something you know, like, well actually nothing!

mitchvman

Clutchup 820.

Inaccurate!

Her argument only makes sense in her world (or most people’s world) not that of a multi-billion dollar company like the Giants!

My Fielder comments is/has been an Amalgam of the basic flaw in the philosophy of the Giants. That is clearly obvious.

I don’t care if the Giants sign him, never did. It is the simple point of they won’t even try! Is that they didn’t try for one “Legitimate” hitter, this whole off-season. For that matter they did not sign One single Free Agent hitter, even though they have the worst offense in the NL, period!

The Giants have the pitching talent and the supporting hitting talent to win the World Series this year (2012). Only if they go out and get that legitimate guy. If not, it is a 1-0, 2-1 win/loss Again!

More importantly, Just because they have this plan of building for the future, doesn’t mean the future will ever come!

Matt Cain could walk! Timmy could too! The prospects I spoke of could be busts or simply serviceable. Then what?

I think I would suppress you inner Sarge, were I you. The words idiocy and boorish are misplaced at best and a serious mistake at worst on this venue, these days. Unless you want to talk exclusively to like of Tit-0 and Sarge or yourself. I, for one, have grown used to the tone here. As to Mavo, if he’s bored, go bait someone else or find a windmill somewhere.

Go back and look at the cost/use curve of a commodity vs. a technology when use is increased. Same kind of demand, opposite effect on price/cost. Baseball talent is a lot more like a commodity, S curve, than a technology, backwards S curve. It’s not ‘cheapness’ to stay at the inflection point, just wisdom.

ClutchUp

Mitch

Mavo wasn’t the only guy who backed Miggy. Those like me who did, finally saw the writing on the wall, and we ALL said enough was enough.

I think that Mavo and You should both try to disagree on each others points versus attacking each other personally. He with You and You with him, otherwise this board reverts back to a climate that nobody needs.

So see, I covered both of you, thus you don’t have to tell me who started it and who reverted to defending his-self. Discuss the theme of the body of the email and leave the man-on-man hate out of the equation.

ClutchUp

MitchvMan said:Matt Cain could walk! Timmy could too! The prospects I spoke of could be busts or simply serviceable. Then what? You are smarter than that!

Then what would mean, SF becomes an organization like the A’s, but that won’t happen due to SF’s template of being fiscally responsible.

Look Mitch, I’ve been a SFG fan since forever. During that time there has been a lot of heartache and smooches. (2002 and 2010)

I don’t feel heartache and murkiness going into 2012. I trust those in charge. That’s what I do, I trust UNTIL I feel/see differently.

Sorry about that 😉

Lefty

Mitch,

What you’re saying, among other things, is that there are no sure things and lots can go wrong. But isn’t that also true for high-priced free agents? Obviously close to home we have Zito, Rowand, and Huff. But last year we saw Werth, Carl Crawford, and Adam Dunn absolutely tank after signing big deals with new teams. I’m not going to be that shocked if even Pujols struggles.

Beltran is different; he’s a known commodity, and two years doesn’t mortgage the future. They could have made that one work, and I’m still a bit confused about why they didn’t even try.

BigJanks

Ok- Sorry Mitch. 6M and you go out and buy a 4M house, Ferrari, Yacht and then go to Gary Danko 4 nights a week.

How many times do I have to go over these numbers…

2012- 130M
2011- 117M
2010- 97.8
2009- 82.6M
2008- 77M

You notice the trend here? Once we lock Timmy and Cain up and get Zito/Rowand/Huff off the books we will have plenty of left over money to get next years crop.

We’ve had sellouts basically for the last 12 years (an off year in 08). So your argument about the last 2 years selling out is moot. Yeah we have money….but we are spending wisely. We are being responsible. We are being smart.

ClutchUp

Beltran was not signing here with SF for 2/26. He signed with SL after most all other windows closed for him.

For all of to keep saying “all Beltran got” was Huff money is inaccurate, because Huff got paid for “what he did” in 2010. Unfortunately that’s the MLB pay structure culture that has been set in stone.

Beltran was not getting $ from SF based on his 2011 contribution, he wanted his past MLB seasons to govern SF’s offer. Remember he also had something written into his 2011 SF contract that limited giving SF any trade provisions.

mitchvman

Channel 825.

My retort to Mavo was spot on. I do not conduct myself in any way shape or form like Sarge, Tito, etc. Actually I find that offensive.

Simply, I respond to Mavo’s unprovoked attacks in kind!

He is a JERK! Regardless, of his illness he has no consideration for others and thinks he is smarter than the room. Furthermore, when he attacks everyone, some here give him a pass. I will not! Again, for the millionth time he baits me. I NEVER even mention him unless he starts it. Perhaps I should ignore him. That is a good point but I NEVER start it!

As far as, your Fiscal Commodity sentence. That is very well structured/Said. The problem is that Sports does not/has never fallen under the norm of classic economics. Baseball is NOT like an S curve. It is a being all to itself. You can implement certain basic economic formulas but you cannot interchange them! Just doesn’t work that way.

No matter how you slice it the Giants are cheap!

mitchvman

Lefty 828.

Agreed!

Remember though, Zito & Rowand may have been paid as such, However, they were NEVER at the same level as a Fielder, etc.

mitchvman

BigJanks 829,

NO, WRONG!

What you DON’T understand is that you only substitute the one number 60k to 6 million. You do not up-convert the rest to be equal parts. It is a realm of wealth that is hard to fathom on a general basis.

Your salary chart is also wrong. Or should I say misinterpreted. Yes, they increase payroll every year. However, they were operating so much below their ability that it seems that they are “spending” accordingly. When In fact they haven’t been and are not now!

Bold Assumption to say “When we lock up Timmy & Cain”. Again, if there is no offense there is no guarantee that they want to be here. Especially when the teams that WILL spend money are out there!

When you say,

“Yeah we have money….But we are spending wisely. We are being responsible. We are being smart.”

That is a ridiculous way to think in regard to a Sports Franchise. While you do not screw the pooch financially in any business, you do what you can to win in a Sports based one!

AGAIN, They have the Money! THEY HAVE THE MONEY! There is ZERO hardship if they spend it! There is ZERO irresponsibility fiscally if they spend it!

Honestly, I cannot make it any clearer.

THERE IS NO BURDEN IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM!

Never said this below, also don’t see the relevance other than to prove that the should been spending all along including Vlad in 2003!

“We’ve had sellouts basically for the last 12 years (an off year in 08). So your argument about the last 2 years selling out is moot.”

You don’t want to agree with folks who might disagree with you, fine. Move on to something else. I, for one, am tired of listening to you rant at/with Mavo. I’m just as tired of seeing him bait you, and you take.

Take it outside kids.

mitchvman

Clutch 827.

You post is exactly what they want you to feel! They did their job.

Remember this conversation next October. Believe me I hope you are right. They make the playoffs, Timmy & Matt are signed and the future is bright!

I take no solace in believing, unfortunately, that I am correct. With the Giants missing the playoffs again (or early exit) and Matt may be gone and Timmy may follow him.

Have a Happy & safe Holiday!

mitchvman

Channel 834.

You addressed that post to the wrong person.

AGAIN, I am NEVER the one who starts it. I never even mention his existence. Only when he attacks me unprovoked do I respond.

Ergo, If he “moves on” you will never a peep about him from me!

As far as, “Knowing everything” I wish!

Unfortunately (as a fan), I am close to the Ins and outs of Sports ownership. I have seen what the actual bottom lines are! You would be amazed how much money is there and what is spent on the actual upgrades of the teams! In all Sports!

Even more unfortunate I am a passionate Giants fan. So when I see this potential Dynasty, and the lack of “true”commitment from ownership. Furthermore, the “masses” blindly following and believing that “it can’t be done” simply because the Giants say so, I get perturbed.

‘starts it’ is a phrase used by a juvenile. Being a ‘passionate fan’ doesn’t excuse name calling and some of your more unfortunate choices of words. Being at your often described ‘nexus’ is irrelevant, IMO. So, in my opinion, argue the facts to your hearts content, but leave your inner ‘Sarge’ at home.

“Starts it” is a phrase that describes who begins what,when,how. Age is a frame of mind! Thinking one is smarter than the room is egotistical dangerous.

Name calling, albeit defensive, is perhaps yes, immature on my part. Even though provoked through his complete inane words, There are no “unfortunate choice of words on my part”. Just true retorts. he should just move on!

I think you should re-look up the word “nexus” and how you use it in regard to, me. You consistently misinterpret what you know nothing about. My experience and knowledge is absolutely relevant to which I speak. Otherwise I would not speak. Remember while you are certainly welcome to disagree based on the kool-aid you may happen to drink and what you hope and wish to be true. Doesn’t mean that I am wrong.

We all have our moments. However, I have been more on target than not. As far as spending and the Giants go. I am 100% correct. I know this to be true. Nothing anyone can say or want to believe will make it not so. It just is.

Truthfully, I would rather be wrong. Sometimes it is heart breaking knowing that the Giants can do better!

Happy Holidays to you!

Bapah

Thia is tiring. We get rid of a few dip sh!t$ and more show up. It’s like a gas; always expanding to fill the void.

Merry Christmas Everyone. You have to go to bed early or Santa won’t fill your stockings. Give it a rest, Mitch, we’re still basking in the void left by Titi&Co. Let’s fill it with good cheer and give thanks for our relief from idiocy.

mitchvman says:
December 24th, 2011 at 3:36 pm
818..
There are too many variables that are unknowns unlike the steady projections of a regular business.
=============

Exactly. No matter WHO you have on your team, there are many ways Murphy’s Law can nail the franchise. We saw that in 2011. So the smart franchise has money set aside for such things as renting Beltran because so many of the starting team have been on the DL, are in a slump, etc.

*Because* funds were set aside, the Giants were able to snag Beltran. Not that he made much of a difference, but had the dollars NOT been available, we wouldn’t have been able to add him.

So I’m back to supporting common business practices, including sports franchises, where the wise owners keep money tucked away because tomorrow you might need those dollars.

mitchvman, I think we need to agree to disagree. 😉

JD4SF

Merry Christmas all!

JD4SF

I should add a Thank You to the regulars here.

I, for one, greatly appreciate that the vast majority of posters are discussing issues and expressing opinions instead of turning to personal attacks. We don’t have much control as individuals regarding Peace on Earth, but for the most part recently we’ve managed Peace on Baggs’ Blog. Thank You!!! 🙂

I saw something on the SJ Giants website that confused me regarding 2B prospect Charlie Culberson. The comment was that he was no longer rated a prospect by Baseball America, because he “dropped out”.
Does anyone here know if he has quit professional Baseball? That would be quite a surprise as he appears to be a pretty good prospect. Am I misunderstanding the comments?

I saw that, too, but as I recall, it just meant that he’d “dropped out” of “top” prospect lists because 2011 was mediocre for him. I follow him on Twitter, and as far as I can tell, he’s very much still in the organization.

Oh, and like many other young Giants, he just got married, and he and his bride were on Jamaica honeymooning at the same time as the new Mr. & Mrs. Brandon Crawford!

Lefty’s correct, he ‘dropped out’ of the ranking by Baseball Prospectus.

steve in NM

Thanks to Lefty and Channelclemente. I’m sure your right, but it seems to me that Charlie enhanced his standing as a top flight prospect in 2011, so I’m a bit puzzled by the Baseball Prospectus rankings. Charlie is still very young and there appears to be a lot of upside with his potential.
I appreciate your responses.

just my opinion, but it’s a ‘top 10’ list. My guess they felt the overall value of the new guys was high enough to drop him in rank order. In the end, that’s a good thing, since it suggests the farm system is healthier.

The Wisdom Cow

Ttoo stufferd to typwe. happyu x-mas.

Walter Guest

I’m glad to see Oakland might/will move to San Jose. That franchise deserves a break and that area deserves a franchise.

You think the Giants will move their A+ team to Oakland?

primetimedonna

Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night!!

Walter Guest

I don’t have much patience with blowhards. I was getting a haircut in Orange County once and, I don’t remember how the subject came up, I mentioned how much I liked C-rations. The barber working next to me liked to blow a fuse. He said when he was in ‘Nam no one liked C-rations. The kids would spit on them and throw them in the gutter. You couldn’t give them away.

I doubted immediately that he had ever been to Vietnam. What’s not to like in a C-ration? The chocolate bar, or gum, or cigarettes or the canned food complete with opener? I was in Vietnam seven years and often used C-rations for money. If you meet someone on a jungle trail, a box of C-rations makes a friend in a hurry. I rode on Swift Boats a lot and saw the sailors do the same thing to apologize for a fruitless intercept on the water.

I was about to call him on it when I saw the other barbers giving these sh$t-eating grins. They all knew what he was so I let it slide.

My first job as an engineer (I had been a surveyor for nine years) sent me to Peru to build a railroad. The guy in charge, high up in the Andes, told me first thing that he had been in “this game 20 years” so he knew his business. Well that was a relief to me ‘cause I was there with this 9th grade education and could use his leadership.

Well it turned out he didn’t know his business and was gone in a flash and this kid with his 9th grade education was in charge of designing the top hundred kilometers of a 200 kilometer railroad to a copper mine at the 8,000 foot level of the Andes. Luckily I loved numbers and trigonometry. It was a joy to go to work every day.

There’s this guy on this blog who often mentions how many years he has followed baseball. In this connection I related an anecdote from Bill James about a coach of the Oakland A’s who tried to tell the great Ricky Henderson that he should swing at more pitches. (Does that sound like a certain manager of the Giants?) James told the story as an example of stupidity even among the coaching ranks. Well this guy with all that experience who comments on this blog thought that coach might have a good idea.

Twice this gentleman has blustered that pitching is 80% of baseball. Of course that’s nonsense. He offers no proof; it’s just a number out of the air as blusterers are wont to do. Bill James and others have proven that pitching is 45% or thereabouts of baseball. When I mentioned that he responded that “he did not sit at the feet of Bill James.”

What the hell does that mean? He doesn’t believe all that research? Evidently not because he’s said the same dumb thing again.

Now he says that pitching has held the top hitters to a .250 average in All-Star Games as evidence of the dominance of pitching. But pitchers have been pounded for a full run above their ERAs in those same games. I guess that proves that in an All Star Game the hitters don’t do as well but neither do the pitchers. Well duh!

As I have mentioned before, he does say some pretty dumb things. I should let it go by but he is an apologist for the Giant management team also and that irks me.

I was suggested this website by my cousin. I am not sure whether this post is written by him as no one else know such detailed about my difficulty. You are wonderful! Thanks!

The Wisdom Cow

It’s been a long time since I got to do the Wayne’s World praise we would do for Barry out in LF.

[Kneels, does arms up then to the ground, head down, repeatedly, in the direction of Walter Guest.]

I’m not worthy. I’m not worthy. I’m not worthy.

Foothills Ryan

Walter Guest says:
December 26th, 2011 at 3:46 am

…

I’m a big fan of Walter’s posts. They read like recovered type-sheets from the unfinished works of Kurt Vonnegot. And so it goes…

JD4SF

Walter Guest says:
December 25th, 2011 at 10:39 pm
864..
I’m glad to see Oakland might/will move to San Jose. That franchise deserves a break and that area deserves a franchise.

You think the Giants will move their A+ team to Oakland?
=============

I had to grin. While the Giants are his #2 team, my hubby is an A’s fan. (He spends a lot of time in the East Bay since his business HQ is located there.) At an extended family Christmas gathering he was asked what he’d do if the A’s relocated to San Jose. He shrugged and said he’d just take a diffferent highway to the games. I suspect many EB fans of the A’s will be thinking the same way, or considering the mass transit options.

Interesting question regarding SF moving a farm team to Oakland if the A’s go to San Jose. I would suspect not, but I’ll be curious to see the responses from folks more familiar with the farm system, franchise areas, etc.

Keep’n It Real

A’s and San Jose…

Does anyone know (or have they read) what the Giants legal options would be if Bud grants the A’s permission to move to San Jose?

From a business standpoint, I have a hard time believing the Giants’ franchise “worth” can be reduced by the findings of a special panel and a friend of Wolf (Bud). The Giants have established this as their territory by having the San Jose Giants located there (what happens to them?) and I would be shocked if the stadium plan/loan documents didn’t contain verbiage that said the Giants own territorial rights to San Jose; in support of their ability to have sellouts and pay back the stadium loan(s).

As I’ve said many times, I may not believe the Giants ownership group’s claim that they have no money to pay free agents…but I 100% believe these folks are business sharp as they come. They knew this San Jose thing may be coming down the road and I’m sure they took various steps (including placing territorial rights in stadium plans/loan documents) to add more teeth to their territorial claim.

From what I’ve read, 75% of all owners must approve this move and that vote won’t come until the Giants agree to some compensation. I think this vote (if the Giants ever agree to anything) will be interesting, because I think it will show how other owners feel about the Giants Group, Bud Selig, and about how they feel about A’s ownership running their franchise like a Mom/Pop store. I also think the current state of the Baltimore Orioles will be brought into play, as evidence (good or bad) of how a franchise is impacted when another is granted permission to move into their territory. I have no data to support this, but I would be shocked if Washington hasn’t impacted the Orioles financially.

Although I no longer live there, I am a San Jose native. I am proud of the way the city has embraced the Sharks and how the Sharks Ownership Group has made the Sharks part of the fabric of my birthplace.

It curls my skin to think that a franchise that had done zero for their fans in the last (fill in the blank) years…and has been relying upon a nepotism-like relationship with Bud Selig…can weasel their way into San Jose and damage the earning potential of the baseball team I have loved since childhood. There is zero guarantee that if they move to San Jose, that the A’s Ownership Group will rise to a level that even sniffs that of the Shark ownership Group.

Bottom line…the only benefit the A’s have to anyone is their World Series trophies; none of which were earned by this current A’s Ownership Group. They obviously cannot be forced to sell, but they should not be rewarded a location that can impact another historical franchise; when they have done zero to earn it.

I’m agnostic on the A’s move, but this kind of financing from community tax breaks hasn’t proven to be much of a bonus for the communities it’s been tried in, usually the opposite in a community of SJ size and economic footprint. The owners do fine until rennovation time, then threaten to move if no upgrades are forthcoming. The only team that has consistently been profitable in the ‘Camden Yard’ ballpark era has been the Giants, which were privately financed. Looking out of that ballpark over the Bay explains the Parks attraction, IMO.

As to the A’s as a franchise, they play good ball from time to time over the years, but except to a few diehard fans, never seems to develop a ‘bobblehead’ fanbase with kids involved. They could barely draw a million when they were able to win world series, and they’ve won a bunch. It’s like they were owned by a series of morticians shopping the fanbase for future customers.

Anybody have an opinion on Jai Miller, on the A’s waiver wire, as a AAA OF candidate suitable for a test drive? He’s 27 years old, and has had a .350 + wOBA in his four shots with the A’s. Diamond in the rough or lump of coal?

totalfan62

Dear Mr. Baer (and Mr. Sabean): please sign to 3-4 year deals our two best pitchers, who are two of the ten best pitchers in the NL. You have the money, make the investment.

Dear SF Giants Ownership Group: Please cease and desist with the profit-taking mindset. Please take a step back and realize that the more you invest in our team today, the more your investment is worth tomorrow. A LOT more! Please do the right thing.

Dear Mr. Sabean and Mr. Bochy: Please realize that the game has changed since you both started doing what you do. Please understand that younger players need to be nurtured, developed, encouraged, and MANAGED. This investment will reap very large benefits downstream.

This is my post-Christmas wish list. All of it is doable. Get it done!

mitchvman

JD4SF 847.

Ok, Fair enough…Keep fighting the Good Fight! Please remember regardless, the Giants have enough money to do whatever they wish!

Can’t argue with the Phils, Cards, & Rangers being up there. Gotta wonder about the Red Sox and Yankees. Neither team has done anything (yet) to strengthen their pitching, and the Bosox lost their closer. I think the Angels should be higher. That top three of Weaver, Haren, & CJ is formidable; if they can make it into the postseason, watch out. Also think maybe the Nats are a sleeper for one of the NL wild cards.

I think the territorial rights are skewed. The Haas family granted San Jose to the Giants when they had tried to move under Bob Lurie and again in 1991-1992 in order for the newest Giant ownership group to be able to claim San Jose as another viable city for which to build a new stadium…

Quite ironic but true…

JD4SF

channelclemente says:
December 26th, 2011 at 7:41 pm
876..
Current odds on MLB teams winning the 2012 World Series.
San Francisco Giants 17 to 1
===========

I kinda like sitting in 7th place. A lucky number. Still in the top 10, but not perceived as an immediate threat so not as obvious a target. A good position to strike from while everyone is more focused on the 1-6 teams. 😉

I’m ready for BASEBALL to start!!!

★*˚°♥ GO 2012 GIANTS!!! ♥˚°*★

JD4SF

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP)—Texas Rangers catcher Yorvit Torrealba was suspended Monday from Venezuela’s professional baseball league for 66 games for striking an umpire.

Agree with you on sitting in 7th Place. Maybe we can be Lucky Number 7! We’ll just sneak up on everyone again! Thanks for posting the odds Channel.

Wow, hard to believe Yorvit losing his cool like that!

primetimedonna

JD4SF & Channel

Thanks for posting the odds, Channel. JD. agree with you that the Lucky 7 spot is the perfect place to sneak up on people!

Wow! Hard to picture Yorvit losing his cool like that!

primetimedonna

Sorry for the duplicate post. Having trouble with the thread.

Foothills Ryan

Yeah, thread having problems. Had to find a back door: in through the out door as they say.

7th best odds shows a lot of respect for the Giants. That’s third best odds in the NL. About the same odds as the Braves who are also a very good team with very good pitching and who did not spend money (smart?). The Phillies and Cardinals are good, but I think both have them have concerns (as do all teams).

Fair enough. I also find it hard believe that the Angels don’t share similar odds with the Rangers. Along withe Angels, I’d slap down some cash on the Nats and Marlins.

Keep’n It Real

ClutchUp-

“I think the territorial rights are skewed”

I heard about that, but the territorial rights “were” granted to the Giants *and* those rights were granted before current A’s ownership was ever in place. This ownership is nothing like the Haas family and I am confident San Jose wasn’t in play as part of any sale (which would have been common knowledge to all of us at the time).

I would be shocked if this doesn’t get ugly. Not only are the Giants going to try and prevent the alternative to driving to AT&T Park (which screws up their solid 3M+ attendance and dynamic pricing $$$)…there’s also relocation of the San Jose Giants (which is a San Jose institution)…and the possibility for the Giants to own the whole Bay Area if the A’s have to move.

The should have stuck with the Fremont deal; which would be a great alternative for East Bay folks.

ClutchUp

🙁 What is going on with the Blog 🙁

Seems hard to get on and view and harder to post?

ClutchUp

JD4SF says: December 27th, 2011 at 4:43 am

Thank for the Yorvit link. Funny how the article linked said: [ He angrily put a hand on the umpire’s mask and shoved him. ]

But the verbiage linked with the video had it correct. That folks was a punch, not a “laying of the hands on him”. 😉

MLB should have a discipline clause that connects behavior in winter ball and carry it over to MLB season. Suspending him 66 days for Venezuela’s League won’t hurt Yorvit one bit in his real livelihood (MLB)

ClutchUp

n/m

ClutchUp

The blogs have been down. The web ops folks have been alerted and will restore service as soon as they can.

Did you guys know Matt Cain lead the Majors in Quality Starts Percentage (QS%) in 2011 with a 79.

JD4SF

channelclemente says:
December 27th, 2011 at 3:32 pm
894..
Did you guys know Matt Cain lead the Majors in Quality Starts Percentage (QS%) in 2011 with a 79.
===========

++++++++++++++

JD4SF

Latest on the Dodgers …

WASHINGTON (AP) — A U.S. District Judge in Delaware says a bankruptcy judge erred in freeing the Los Angeles Dodgers from provisions of its current Fox Sports TV contract.

U.S. District Judge Leonard Stark released a 33-page ruling Tuesday explaining his reasoning after he issued an order last Friday to halt the Dodgers’ plans to sell the media rights to future games as part of the team’s impending sale.

Hector Sanchez’s hitting has fallen off a cliff in that winter league. His BA has gone from .390 to .335 in ten games or so. I’d guess exhaustion. They’re probably riding him like a mule.

Mavo

@Walter Guest says:
December 26th, 2011 at 3:46 am

Talk about a blowhard!! This guy takes a full screen to say NOTHING!! I find it particularly insulting and out of line to compare me to some barber who claimed to be in Vietnam … what the hell does THAT have to do with baseball anyway?

Anybody who knows anything about baseball knows how important pitching is. I guess the 2010 Giants beat the slugging Phillies and the terrifying Rangers with their bats … and not their stellar pitching! What a jerk this guy is to attack me like he does. I stated many examples of how pitching ALWAYS shuts down good hitting and this idiot quotes Bill James like he is some kind of God. I guess those 1965 Dodgers beat my slugging Giants for the pennant and the mighty Twins in the World Series with their bats … LOL Or the 1969 Mets who could not hit their way out of a wet paper bag beat the mighty Orioles with their BATS… LOL And finally I guess those .300 hitters all hitting .250 off the best pitching in All Star games have all just had a bad game for … 75 years!! For a more recent example, given Mr Guest’s warped viewpoint those terrifying 2011 Boston Red Sox who scored 875 runs should have run away with the division and rolled through the playoffs … instead they missed the playoffs because their pitching STUNK!! I could go on and on … but I’ll leave it at that and leave it to others on here to choose who the blowhard truly is! You give me the Giants outstanding pitching with just an AVERAGE offense and defense and I’ll beat Mr Guest’s offensive juggernauts every time!!

Foothills Ryan

Mavo,

I really like Walter’s posts. I also really like your anecdotes about players living in your complex. You two should be friends. Order a couple of boilermakers and bury the ol’ hatchet.

JD4SF

Foothills Ryan says:
December 27th, 2011 at 6:30 pm
906..
Mavo,

I really like Walter’s posts. I also really like your anecdotes about players living in your complex. You two should be friends. Order a couple of boilermakers and bury the ol’ hatchet.
========

Ummmm, suggest a clarification that the ol’ hatchet should be buried NOT in each other. Cleaning blood splatters off the keyboard might get a bit challenging. ;-/

When it becomes obvious the opposing opinions aren’t going to change, “agree to disagree” allows folks to move on. But this forum has a core foundation built on being a Giants fan, so here’s a thought we should all agree on:
Go 2012 Giants!!!

His attorneys paid $455 and filed a one-sentence notice to the federal trial court late Wednesday, saying that Bonds was asking the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeal to toss out his conviction. The case will be randomly assigned to a three-judge panel later.

*Louis “Buck” Newsom of the St Louis Browns, pitching in both games of a double-header, walked the first four men in one game and started the second game by striking out the same 4 players.

*Miss Jackie “Lefty” Mitchell, first lady to sign a professional baseball contract, Miss Mitchell struck out Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig in succession in an exhibition game in April 1931.

ClutchUp

For you more SF Bay Area Located Giant Fans who need a fix…

The California League champion San Jose Giants will be honored at the 27th annual Santa Clara County Hot Stove Banquet on Tuesday, January 25. The banquet, which recognizes area baseball players and teams from the major and minor leagues, college, and high school levels, will be held at the San Jose Elks Club beginning at 5:30 P.M.

The San Jose Giants won their second consecutive league title last September after a thrilling Championship Series victory over the Rancho Cucamonga Quakes. The Giants posted a 76-64 record during the regular season winning their unprecedented sixth straight first half North Division title. San Jose swept the Modesto Nuts in the Division Series before outlasting the Quakes three-games-to-two in the Championship Series marking their first back-to-back crowns in franchise history. The Giants will be receiving the award for Outstanding Professional Organization.

Other award winners include Colorado Rockies shortstop Troy Tulowitzki (Major League Player of the Year), Baltimore Orioles pitcher Jeremy Guthrie (Major League Pitcher of the Year), Boston Red Sox outfielder Daniel Nava (Major League Rookie of the Year), Santa Clara’s Tom Medica (College Player of the Year) and California’s Erik Johnson (College Pitcher of the Year).

San Francisco Giants Executive Assistant to the General Manager Karen Sweeney will be honored with the Kathy Wolff Women in Baseball award. Other college, community college, high school, sports media and scout awards will also be presented.

Ted Robinson will serve as Master of Ceremonies.

The price for the event is $45 per person or $450 for a reserved table for ten. Advanced payment is required (see attached document).

The stove is heating up quite nicely. Since there’s no real baseball news, some interesting items have hit the blog.

Clutch, I liked the arcane baseball factoids, esp.the one about the pitcher who “caught” his own pitch for strike three. And the woman who struck out the all time heavies of the Yankees.

As for the little storm brewing between Mavo and Walter, do with that as you will. Sometimes you need a scorecard to keep track of the squabbles around here. I give W Guest the edge, though – he’s typing from the future. Whenever he posts, he’s one day ahead of most of us. On the other hand, Mavo’s position on the pitching thing makes a lot more sense to me. And I too enjoy the anecdotes.
So, yes as is becoming the standard, JDSF checks in with the common sense, pragmatic, agree to disagree platform, which I agree with completely. Foothill, though is more direct: just get along. Interesting. And entertaining.

One other thing, CC, for clarification, where is Cal Sacramento (in the item about the pitcher’s fielding)?

JD4SF

ClutchUp says:
December 27th, 2011 at 8:35 pm
913..
Hot Stove Boredom Little Known Facts
*Miss Jackie “Lefty” Mitchell, first lady to sign a professional baseball contract, Miss Mitchell struck out Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig in succession in an exhibition game in April 1931.
==========

Thanks for that link, CU. It puts the Giants budget for 2012 in a very different perspective.

Mavo

Sorry but I do not intend to “bury the hatchet” with W Guest!! The guy totally attacked me and called me names unprovoked. He is offensive and I am quite capable of giving as good as I get! Plus his position on how pitching is only 45% of baseball is ridiculous to any knowledgeable baseball person. If that was true the 2010 Giants could never have won it all and even more to the point the 2011 Giants could not have gotten 86 wins with the league’s worst offense.

One last thought: If Prince is such a “bargain” and “difference maker” why is he still unsigned? I heard today on MLB Network that Boras may be asking for 10 years at 255 mil … to top Albert’s contract! So I guess other teams are a bit wary of shelling out a quarter of a billion for an overweight power hitter with a questionable character on the field! I for one am glad the Giants are passing on this jerk! After his cheap “bowling pin” stunt a few years ago and how he wants to fight every time a pitch comes close to him … who needs that type of BS in the clubhouse … certainly NOT our Giants! The Giants have a good decent salary budget and they are planning on being able to pay OUR young players as they reach free agency in the years to come… GOOD STRATEGY IMO!!

Mavo

Good link about the 2011 team salaries Clutch! One thing to note is that 7 of the top 10 in payroll in 2011 did not even make the playoffs! And NONE of the top 10 won it all. I think that says something about trying to build your team with high price FAs. The Giants are doing it the right way … with their own players and for the long-term.

Mavo

One thing that posters on here who wanted the Giants to sign a big expensive FA bat need to realize is the Giants ownership structure. The team is owned by many investors and some of them are not that wealthy. So keeping the payroll around the break even point is important to many of the minority owners. If the Giants had ONE egotistical owner … like Steinbrenner was or Larry Ellison could be … then maybe we could expect that owner to go beyond the budget for a higher payroll. But with the Giants ownership structure a more practical budget is called for. I am friends with one of the Giants minority owners and this idea promoted by my old friend mitchyman, that the Giants have all this excess money to spend is BS!!! They are running the team responsibly within some budget guidelines at about break even. And again, 133 million is NOT a cheap budget for the team!!

JD4SF

Jstreet says:
December 28th, 2011 at 12:15 am
920..
JDSF checks in with the common sense, pragmatic, agree to disagree platform,
===========

LOL. Pragmatic, indeed. I can be passionate on some subjects, but in general do tend more toward the practical side and considering consequences. For example …

Consider Foothill’s suggestion of burying the ol’ hatchet … and the possible consequences. Sheesh, he just handed alcohol and a sharp weapon to two guys takin’ swipes at each other!

Well, I know how that can end, and it ain’t pretty. It can get VERY complicated, and deteriorate rapidly. The possible consequences to consider go something like this …

We innocent bystanders call virtual 911 then explain the whole thing to the Net Police; listen to the muttering while the Net Medics patch up the wounded but still snarling combatants; wait around while Cyber CSI collects evidence (including blood alcohol tests); Foothills gets hooked and booked because he supplied the booze and weapon; a Grand Jury investigation is opened regarding the possible culpability of Baggs and the SJ Mercury News for providing the battle ground …

… and by the time you get around to cleaning the blood out of the keyboard it is dried and even more of a PITA to clean up. Consider all the little crevices where that blood splatter could sneak into! Sure enough, we’d all end up with a key that sticks! [sigh]

And then the ambulance chasers show up, with the hungry legal eagles trying to sell the idea of a bystander lawsuit to replace damaged equipment, unnecessary exposure to a bloodborne pathogens HazMat incident requiring extensive medical care after decontamination procedures, damage to the fragile psyche / mental anguish for witnessing the bloody battle requiring years of therapy, income loss resulting from the incident and recovery, and the list goes on.

Meanwhile, the Giants get trashed by the press for having out of control fans. There are even evil media comparisons to the [gasp] Dodgers fans! The appalled public schedules an Occupy AT&T Park to protest. It gets so ugly after that I can’t even continue to describe it, but the National Guard responds when martial law is declared, and a new law bans ownership of hatchets.

Told ya, it ain’t pretty. 🙁

So my pragmatic side says this would *not* be a situation where *anyone* comes out the winner. Perfectly logical and very practical when you consider the possible consequences!

[innocent smile]

Ron Mexico 1980

I don’t think the Giants will miss Bustran ONE minute. He is the textbook defination of a “hired gun”
Great hitter but a numero uno primadona and jerk! Go become a cardinal with that ancient lineup and terrible pitching staff!!!

If senor charmin thinks the defending Champs give him his best possible chance to win than he’s muy loco

Ron Mexico 1980

And again, 133 million is NOT a cheap budget for the team!!

I cannot believe that there are fans complaining about a 133 mil dollar payroll!!!
Wait until next season when Rowand/Huff/Freddy/and other’s are off the books…
Giants , barring any unforseen injuries, will win the west in 2012. I expect to have 3 starters on the NL roster in the ASG in Timmy, Cain, and MadBum
MadBum is our 3 and he would be #1 on many teams in the majors…thats crazy

Foothills Ryan

Bienvenidos Ron. Estas correcto, Señor.

Back to Mavo and this pitching/hitting debate. I think Walter credits pitching to be at most 40% of the game. I don’t know where you check in Mavo, but I believe it is well north of there.

Well, 40 might be the upper end of it. In a balanced game (even plate appearances), where the pitchers are delivering one of three true outcomes (K,BB, HR), then you can state that pitching is 50% of the game for each team. But in a real game, the defense gets involved and the pitching represents somewhere between 50 and 25%, but no more than 50.

However, Mr. Mavo, if you want to make a claim that pitching is 80 % of the game because at all times someone is pitching and you are combining the effort of both sides where there are plenty of K’s, BB’s and HRs, then you can logically stake a claim on this patch of earth.

Furthermore, if you want to break down the contributions of each element from each team, you might say pitching is 35%, defense is 15%, hitting is 40% and baserunning is 10%. The pitching/defense side of the play might carry more weight towards the outcome of the match. Excellent performances on the mound and in the field are more likely to contribute to win probability. And I don’t know if that is true. I suspect it is true, but it certainly begs the question and The Book by Tom Tango would be a good place to have a look.

I hope I haven’t blown too hard into this microphone. May all your swords and hatchets be turned to plowshares.

Ron Mexico 1980

I think that everyone who is clamoring for that “Big Bat” forgets what park we play in…Nobody will hit 40 bombs playing 80 in AT&T, plus another 20 in LA/SD. It’s just NOT happening. That’s why Bochy needs to embrace a small ball philosophy. Speed and Defense will be the name of the fame. Yeah in 2010 the Giants offense seemed to be feast or famine.
We’ll be fine y’all. Just a littel patience and make sure you lock up Timmy and Shotgun or were all F*c*ked!

primetimedonna

JD @ 1:51

Interesting article re Giants payroll. This supports so many of the posts you have made. Looks like you were spot on, as usual!!

Jstreet

JD4SF, I like your ability to think a scenario through to the next consequence. The bit about the forensic experts and lawyers was brilliant. Flesh it out a bit and you’ve got a new episode of Law and Order, MLB, everyone’s favorite winter time crime drama. Have to admit, there is a lot of value to your approach to problem solving.

Mavo, I guess if you “got over it”, you wouldn’t be quite the same. But you might feel better. Keep those cards and letters coming in.

February is just around the corner, spring training ain’t far behind that.

Nate’sFanMom

In case you all haven’t seen it, here’s an interesting take on the Yankees and their unusual fiscal restraint.

They, too, realize that having a line-up of bombers doesn’t translate into world championships. The article points out, that for all of their power hitter, both the Yanks and the Phils have only won one championship a piece in the last decade.

For those antiques that think it is part of the game and it shouldn’t be changed, maybe we can go back to horse ridden carriages?

The goal of all sports is to protect it’s players. The NBA adapted flagrant fouls when they were part of the game especially in the playoffs. They did so to protect their players. When Tom Brady was hit low and out for the year, the NFL changed the rule to protect QB’s. They’ve now modified rules to protect WR’s. Buster Posey is a catching star, and despite it being “part of the game” the league must protect it’s single greatest asset, its’ players.

The FACT that baseball and many fans and former players refuse to change this rule is the best evidence that baseball will continue to fade in popularity and fall behind other sports that progressively get better, and improve the overall quality of the game.

If you can’t crash the first baseman, 2nd baseman, or 3rd baseman, why can you crash the catcher? Can the catcher decapitate the runner too? I’d love to see that. A runner get severely injured on a collision like that b/c the catcher ignored the ball and just took out the runner.

(with all that protective equipment)

Ron Mexico 1980

A runner get severely injured on a collision like that b/c the catcher ignored the ball and just took out the runner.

(with all that protective equipment)

AMEN…and hopefully it’s Mike Stanton or some other schmuck on the Miami Marlins!!!

Lefty

Ron,

I vote for Logan Morrison. He’s the jerky Tweetaholic who said that if it had been him and not Cousins, he would have “put Posey in the third row” and not considered apologizing.

I don’t want Posey to be the one taking him out, though. Let’s make Eli earn that new one-year contract! He took a charge from the portly Prince with no ill effects…He also showed some good football form tackling Polanco during that brawl with the Phils.

This neverending argument about pitching vs other aspects of the games contribution to winning is interesting. I think to answer it properly, you have to segment the game into regular and post season. If you consider the Giants as an example case, winning a division over a 162 game regular season is no mean goal. Pitching without hitting and defense is no sure answer to winning, but…post season is another matter. I think there, in short defined series with the kind of preparation one gets to take advantage of, pitching is dominant, very dominant. That’s particularly true, if your a big bat, showtime sort of power team with poor or even good pitching. Over the years teams like the Giants, Dodgers, Cardinals, Tigers, etc have proven that beyond the shadow of a doubt, IMO.

Interesting trivia question, what baseball player played for the Harlem Globetrotters?

ClutchUp

Nate’sFanMom says: December 28th, 2011 at 10:22 am In case you all haven’t seen it, here’s an interesting take on the Yankees and their unusual fiscal restraint.

++++++++++++++++

We should ask the Head Blogger A Baggs to “pin” that post by you so that it stays current daily. There must be some subliminal fantasy-league-type mentality to those wanting to sign the FA power-boppers whose contracts are now UP, and thus are available to the highest bidder?

Even when the BoSox broke their curse and won the WS, they had as many intangible factors going on as did the 2010 Giants.

ClutchUp

channelclemente says: December 28th, 2011 at 11:39 am
Interesting trivia question, what baseball player played for the Harlem Globetrotters?

Wonder how far back we’re going here? Did Babe Ruth suit up and serve hot dogs as a novelty act?

Was Josh Gibson a hoopster?

ClutchUp

Mo P says: December 28th, 2011 at 10:55 am

Tremendous post, backed up by facts, logic and common sense regarding other sports.

Mavo says: December 28th, 2011 at 2:58 am Sorry but I do not intend to “bury the hatchet” with W Guest!! The guy totally attacked me and called me names unprovoked. He is offensive and I am quite capable of giving as good as I get!

Mavo: You have proved that before with various Mavo vs. Mitch diatribes from both sides. My suggestion is to either: Why bother if you know your version has merit and number (2) 😉 You were never by nickname or surname. WG wrote his post without naming names.

It could have been redirected to many of US here that support Giant Management (not an apologist/big difference)

I know how much pitching means to one game, one series, one homestand, one roadtrip, one season and especially the post season. You and I both lived through the G’s heavily offensive lineups of Mays and company. Even WE had two HOF pitchers, but the LAD’s two HOF pitchers were even better at that moment in time.

Most of the veteran posters can still win a beer or two over the trivia fact that Juan Marichal NEVER won a Cy Young ~ ~ ~

ClutchUp

channelclemente says: December 28th, 2011 at 12:02 pm CU et’ al.
Bob Gibson played for the Harlem Globetrotters for one year.

—-Oopps. I am 0 for 1, I said JOSH Gibson…

ClutchUp

BigJanks says: December 27th, 2011 at 9:34 pm ClutchUp- Can you please forward that Big Spenders link to MitchV? Thx

*LOL* – I have several posters emails but not SoCal Mitch. Guess I should be happy that there is a G fan down his way, but I am also quite positive that MVM has seen the link that I left…

ClutchUp

As reported today by Susan Slusser of the SF Chronicle – looks like Billy Jumping Beane or one of his “Peter Brand” type employees may have floated last weeks Pre-Christmas message that “we’re heading to San Jose” – just to do some spin control over trading first Cahil and then Gio.

Slusser is a great source. Nobody currently connected to the G’s Front Office (Baer and Company and EVEN Neukom) can comment, however Peter McGowan is not on public-comment-restriction. His facts and comments along with Slusser’s ability to be factual on her side, does not bode well the the A’s.

when the citizens of San Joser come to understand all the issues associated with Tax Increment Financing (TIF) and TIF Districts they may be as unhappy with this decision as the citizens of Sacramento when the Maloof’s tried that gambit over a new Kings arena. It was defeated, if I recall, almost 2/1 and cost the Major who backed it her job.

Ron Mexico 1980

I vote for Logan Morrison. He’s the jerky Tweetaholic who said that if it had been him and not Cousins, he would have “put Posey in the third row” and not considered apologizing.

I can’t believe Logan Moronsion had the stones to say that! But I’m truly NOT that suprised. I mean Florida, uh I mean Miami sent him to AAA when he was putting up all star caliber #’s. He’s a punk, plain and simple and I hope he suffers a season ending injury and I can make fun of him

Also, different topic, but who started NBA’s owners “needing” to sit at courtside? Cuban had to be one of the earliest, however Franklin Meuli and his deartstalker cap was a fixture at the Cow Palace and Oakland for decades. I see Joe Lacob and his trophy bride high 5ing fans two minutes into the 2nd quarter with the scores “38-37”. Reminds me of the wide receivers that catch an 18 yard pass for a first down with their teams down by three TD’s, or the Defensive End who sackes the quarterback with his team down by 30 points.

Young student-athletes have very few professional athletes/owners for which to look up to. There are a few, but not many.

Trader Jack McKeon and his front office staff sent Morrison out to the minors after several of his imature twitter moments. Some of these so called bonus baby types are clueless, having had everying done for them. They’re shoes are polished, laundrey done daily, food spread ala the Hilton, $100 meal money daily etc.

AAA and below is a reality check and it appears LM needed that severely. I was around 4 showcases for the then Bryce Harper Look at me Tour, and he came off as a relentless jerk, but he was 16 yrs old being manhandled and abused by tournament directors/Cash-Cow Investors. Harper’s reputation took a HUGE beating, some deservedly so and some man-made by Adults that were even more immature than a 16-17 year old “boy”.

Keep’n It Real

ClutchUp @ 12:19 pm:

Thanks for the link. Good article and it accurately describes the hill needing to be climbed, even *if* Bud takes care of his buddy. The article also validated things that we have both posted here.

Three things of note:

* That San Jose Group (supported by the Giants) *will* do a lot to get any vote on the stadium defeated. Increased traffic, potential litigation with SF and the Giants, impact on school funds, historical business practices of current A’s ownership, and pretty much any San Jose “issue” (needing funding) will all be on the table to make this vote go down.

* Teams may vote in favor of the move because they’re tired of paying the A’s the luxury tax? I would think other owners would be ticked that the A’s ownership group is pocketing that money. I would also think other owners would punish them; not reward them.

* McGowan documenting his conversation with Wolf about San Jose. Like I said before, the Giants ownership group lined up their ducks on this possible move years ago. They’re doing a Matrix Neo-like hand gesture to the A’s right now…”come and get it”. Oh yeah…the McGowan interview wasn’t some random thing, either.

I was also reading the comments (below the article), where someone was complaining about the Giants being granted the rights by the A’s…and karma will prevail if the Giants don’t give them back (paraphrase). As you accurately stated before. it was the Haas family that did this. It was not the current ownership group…which deserves zero consideration from Giants ownership.

Looks like we have some countering reports here. While it’s previously been reporting that the Colorado Rockies have spoken about a contract with free agent outfielder Cody Ross, Patrick Saunders of The Denver Post is reporting that isn’t the case.

Saunders has word from a Rockies source that the team isn’t speaking with Ross because of the depth that the team already has at the position. The source notes that the team does in fact like Ross as a player, but he isn’t a good fit at this point given their other options and his expectation for landing a multi-year deal…….

to your point about the area and the vote. People may forget that after the Giants were ceded the area, two votes failed in Santa Clara to get TIF districts formed to mitigate the cost of a new stadium there. Politically, this is not going to be a slam dunk, I would suspect.

ClutchUp

channelclemente says: December 28th, 2011 at 1:22 pm CU et. al.if your curious about TIFs, and maybe live in San Joser,

*Way, way above my head. The only TIF I am worried about is Mavo vs. Mitchvman/WGuest 😉

I live in San Carlos near one of Baggs allies, Dan Brown of the Merc.

ClutchUp

UPDATED: Joe Torre can’t get behind a Buster Posey-inspired rule change to protect catchers, but Bruce Bochy still plans to pursue it
Posted by Andrew Baggarly on December 15th, 2011 at 5:57 pm

Prediction: Just under 1000 postings – This could go on to set some records for number of posts although it may not come near the 2389 on September 29th, 2011 because the topic that day Post Season Notes drew out tons of passion, some a tad scattered to say the least…

Mid December of 2009’s history of No value and December 2010 Euphoria was still the operative word…

So, can we drop last May 25, 2011 (WED) – 12th inning from the “way-back” calendar?

Keep’n It Real

ClutchUp @ 137pm

“Prediction: Just under 1000 postings – This could go on to set some records for number of posts although it may not come near the 2389 on September 29th, 2011 because the topic that day Post Season Notes drew out tons of passion, some a tad scattered to say the least…”

Yes…and the posting “ballot box” is no longer being stuffed by the Nurse Ratched Fan Club; as was the case back then.

Keep’n It Real says: Yes…and the posting “ballot box” is no longer being stuffed by the Nurse Ratched Fan Club; as was the case back then.

*Explain? I forgot about that one….

JD4SF

ClutchUp says:
December 28th, 2011 at 1:25 pm
955..
POOR CODY While it’s previously been reporting that the Colorado Rockies have spoken about a contract with free agent outfielder Cody Ross, Patrick Saunders of The Denver Post is reporting that isn’t the case.
=========

Reds are reportedly looking at Cody.

mitchvman

ClutchUp 943.

Just got here not sure what is going on. Don’t feel like scrolling all the way back.

However, I have said this many, many times. Mavo attacks everybody on here. Not just differs his opinion from someone else’s. Actually calls them names, tells them how stupid they are “idiots” and how he know more than anyone else (especially in the little finger of his).

He ALWAYS starts it. People like myself will retort in kind but I have NEVER EVER started it with him nor do I acknowledge him unless he starts in.

I realize you are his friend. I realize he is very sick. The problem is that does not give him the right to be a Jerk. Quite frankly, he is a big JERK. My guess is he always has been one! I think your judgment is biased when it comes to him for the obvious reasons. I appreciate the loyalty. Yet, you make it sound, at times, that it is my fault or I guess in this instance Walter Guest’s fault?

Simply it’s not. It’s Mavo’s fault! Always has been. I know it may be hard for you given the circumstances but stop coming to his “aid” He claims he doesn’t need it. So let him hang himself with his childness.

Yes, at times we may get sucked into his inane comments and fight back. Maybe it is immature of us to do so. Regardless, you need to let it go…

Mavo

To my fellow Extrabaggers, I will try my best to not get into another pissing contest with Mr Guest. It was his whole tone of his post … with the comparison with the barber that ticked me off. The guy did not name me by name but it was obvious who he was reffering to. The guy is a total jerk and does not know squat about baseball if he does not realize how important pitching is in baseball. I cited enough examples for people on here to do their own research on this topic if they want to. I’ll leave this fight alone for the good of the blog. I really don’t need the added stress given my health right now!

Thanks to all of you for talking me down off the ledge on this one… WG can argue with himself if he desires.

Mavo

I’ll even SKIP the maniacal rantings of mitchyman that he just posted… I just don’t have the energy to waste on these idiots like him and WG!! He can flap his lips alone if he wants to!!

mitchvman

Clutch 945.

Didn’t see link. Please re-leave and I will assess for BigJanks

thanks

Foothills Ryan

Mr. Mavo, atta way to ‘bury the ol’ hatchet 🙂

CC,

I’ll have to read through that article on SSS. I skimmed because it just didn’t seem to apply at first glance. I just don’t think it’s fair to say someone like Fielder doesn’t like to hit in SF judging by 50 ABs. If you are measuring the height of a population and you randomly take 30 individuals, then you are doing right by making assumptions about the whole population. Baseball is quite different. It’s not a population attribute, it’s a performance. I know that you know this, but things like OBP take a long time to “stabilize” and become predictive.

And as for Andrew Bailey, gone to the Red Sox. Who’d a thunk? Well, anyone paying attention. Reddick + ??? though ?

mitchvman

ClutchUp

Read 968.

See what I mean. That post is a microcosm of Every single time he writes from way, way back.

Your heart is in the right place but he is a Jerk and that will never change.

Whew…. can’t say that WE did not try. I have different opinions surely but one that I think helps all of us might be: (I said might)

Hypothetical Scenario: We read something we vehemently disagree with and when we post OUR individual counter ideas, we all should consider just stating our thoughts without personalizing those remarks with adjectives that draw attention to our personal thoughts on the “soul” or character of another human being.

The fact that the board was sanitized of two certain individuals = put me on a “high” to “almost” tolerate anyone. That said, no matter where it all started and no matter who the original culprit was, there is always room for improvement. We are not curing cancer or reinventing the wheel.

Moving forward, Tolerance should be considered a virtue. I have been guilty of many things in the past, and if MOST of my suggestions above are considered worthy = then there is room for (almost) everyone.

Read this and think back of the quantity of posts made by individuals that should be cared for by her. The “ballot box” stuffing comment was a metaphor for postings of that nature made on September 29, 2011.

I guess my attempt at humor and “read between the lines” wasn’t a success 🙂

I couldn’t agree more about summation statistics, your right. But, in a case where your asking a quite different question, is a guy like Fielder an over achiever in a certain setting, can someone hit LHP or RHP, etc, the summative stats provide accuracy but no more information. That’s why 3 years, 3 different sets of pitchers seem to suggest that AT&T just wasn’t Fielder’s typical LCF power venue.

Reddick is a steal for Bailey who is what, an ex Oakland A’s pitcher. Not a very good resume, historically.

ClutchUp

Keep’n It Real says: December 28th, 2011 at 3:12 pm
ClutchUp @ 230pmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurse_RatchedI guess my attempt at humor and “read between the lines” wasn’t a success

*No it was on me, versus you. I know the Nurse Ratchets of the world well. In fact I watch the black and white Cuckoos Nest all the time to remind myself that there are those less fortunate (and much funnier than I) Classic Nicholson, Devito and others. I still remember HOW the movie theater crowed JUMPED at the moment Nurse R appeared on screen.

Most of the ballot stuffing was probably my fault of those 2000++ as I was trying to kill Bilsy.

I get very little of Channels humor, nor yours, but its on me not you two. 😉

dan

Lincecum wants an 8 yr contract probably = 150 mil +

Cain will surely wants an 8 yr contract probably = 150 mil +

I thought the G’s will have to pay 300 mils for both or they will walk.

minimum 6 or 7 yr contracts for both.

Foothills Ryan

Is Bailey + Sweeney for Reddick & loose change still a steal ??? Curious what the official fangraphs response will be.

I guess Middlebrooks was too much for Bailey.

SuperDuper

Less than 100 days until opening day…

JD4SF

Mavo says:
December 28th, 2011 at 2:48 pm
967..
To my fellow Extrabaggers, I will try my best to not get into another pissing contest […] Thanks to all of you for talking me down off the ledge on this one
=======

🙂

re: my post @ 926
I hope we never need to learn the details of what “possible consequences” are hiding behind door #2, the 2nd alternative reality episode for Law and Order, MLB, as hosted on the popular Jstreet-TV cyber channel. It was scary!

The 2nd episode of the highly unremarkable series was to be sponsored by Just Say No, 10 Steps, Bombs R Us, and Proponents for Reduced Stress.

I’m glad the alien threat was averted, the USMC is standing down, the mass evacuation is cancelled, and The Doctor (Who?) can return to his Tardis for another epic journey in time and space – this time wearing an honorary Giants ballcap!

Just sayin’ …
😉

Bapah

Well, I thought Clutch would have singled out JD for her outstanding post. He didn’t, so I will. Loved your scenario relating the breadth of absurdity this imbroglio might attain. I certainly enjoyed it more than having to read the vitriol of either side of this… this.. discussion.

I, personally, have relished the fact that Titi is gone for the holidays. So, this little tiff is only a minor distraction. You did a wonderful job, JD, of putting absurdity in its place. Kudos!

JD4SF

SuperDuper says:
December 28th, 2011 at 3:46 pm
981..
Less than 100 days until opening day…
========

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

mitchvman

Clutch 973.

Yeah I’ve read this. The story skews the reality of the Giants financials. Because it is in “print” everyone deems it as truth/reality.

“San Francisco was one of the more free-wheeling clubs in 2011, raising its payroll from $101.4 million in 2010 to $125.1 million this year—a 23.4 percent hike and the eighth-highest team payroll in baseball.”

“Free-Wheeling”? Ok, I wouldn’t have used that term. However, while they certainly spent more each year for the past few years. The “percentage hike” is not indicative of going above their means. Rather, that for the amount of money they make and the fact that they are a larger market team, they have/had not been spending enough to be on par with this status!

“Only the Texas Rangers (+39.9 percent) and the Florida Marlins (+30.9 percent) saw bigger salary jumps during the same time.”

Exactly! The Rangers and the “New” Marlins are spending what it takes in order to get where they want. Would I spend 100 plus million on Yu Darvish? Absolutely not! However, I would have on Reyes in Florida on Fielder here. I would’ve on Beltre last year and they made the offer to Lee too. He chose to leave (which will happen) but the difference is they made the offer! Nolan Ryan is not interested in just putting butts in seats (ala Giants ownership). He is trying to win the ring! The “new” Marlins are too.

Remember, again, 2010 was a fabulous year. However, luck and timing was greatly involved too! The goal in 2010 was the proverbial “competitive” team. The Ring was an unexpected GREAT Icing on that!

“Earlier this month, Giants President/CEO Larry Baer said the team would be committed to a 2012 payroll of around $130 million.”

Yes, that is what Larry said! However, that does not mean that is all the money they have. In fact they could comfortably spend 170 million a year if they chose. Not saying they have too and/or should. The POINT has always been that they can if they WANTED too!

When you have a difference maker out there, that is the closest thing to a “sure thing”, you do it! Especially when your team is that close to winning with him!

The rest of the article is irrelevant. The biggest misconception that everyone seems to continue to make day after day (Bigjanks) is that, just because there is spending every year. Just because it has incrementally grown for the past few years. Does not mean in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM, that it is the Giants “ceiling” of where they can go. Or that they weren’t grossing under spending before! They have chosen to hover around 130 million mark this year. They can go higher if they wanted too!

Honestly, I am not sure why this so difficult for people to understand this simple reality. Why they continuously choose to believe the Giants are tapped out at 130 million is staggering to the mind.

By the by. I have heard at least 4 broadcasters on MLB radio say the exact same thing. They think the D-backs are the team to beat and that the Giants better hope that one of their pitchers don’t go down. Yikes! We did not sign a SINGLE free Agent this year. Even though we had the worst offense last year. The trades for Melky & Pagan are going to put us over the top? Start rubbing that 4 leaf clover & rabbit’s foot!

Even the NBA has their own Eye Chart Candidates….
The Warriors pick up: Kyrylo Fesenko

Jstreet

Re: the periodic Internet fisticuffs that occur here. Who STARTS it is never as important as who FINISHES it. Think about that for a moment.

When you post something inflammatory, what is it you are actually trying to accomplish? Most of those who post here would prefer to exchange information and learn more while waiting for the next ballgame. Humor is always a plus, and if you’ve got something of value, by all means share. If you’re just sticking up for yourself and in the process pointing out the foibles of others, what have you brought to the table?

In the words of the great Vin Scully, “Let’s get back to this one.”

JD4SF

Bapah says:
December 28th, 2011 at 3:50 pm
983..
You did a wonderful job, JD, of putting absurdity in its place. Kudos!
============

I admit I was kinda looking forward to Nurse Ratchett dealing with the aliens while The Doctor waved his sonic screwdriver and discovered …

[ahem] Think I’ll save that episode for another time … 😉

Jstreet says:
December 28th, 2011 at 3:55 pm
988..
Re: the periodic Internet fisticuffs that occur here. Who STARTS it is never as important as who FINISHES it. Think about that for a moment.
=============

I don’t remember Baer using “tapped out”. That was Sabean. Baer said that is what our Inside Number Cap will be.

Fielder is Fielder and Albert is Albert. Neither would guarantee a post season or WS victory. I want guarantees and in the professional game of baseball there are very few.

If the Padres did not LOSE 10 straight games in 2010, SF does not do what they did!

1- Players can control how HARD they play
2- Players can control how SMART they play
3- Players can control how Well the play Together

Wins can’t be controlled
Hits can’t be controlled
A quality at bat can be defined, thus controlled to a point
Being fundamentally sound can be defined, thus controlled to a point.

The X factor NO MATTER who is on your roster IS that there is another dugout FULL of professional ball players, regardless of the fact that their team might have just lost 12 straight or that their team is hitting .230.

A hitter can barrel UP a thrown baseball right on the screws and it can be caught by a great athletic shortstop.

A pitcher can throw a 98 mile per hour FB on the black of the plate and some punch and Judy hitter can flair a blooper over the out reaches of a 2bman or 1baseman, to bring in the winning run and break that team’s heart.

100-62 would be considered a great season by most of the 30 clubs, yet within those 62 losses, there are games that the team thought they had won, and yet went on to lose and there are games in the 100 wins that the team thought were losses and they went on to win.

In sandlot neighborhood games and in amateur baseball where there is one game per weekend (sandlot) and 28 games (High School) and 52 games NCAA/NAIA (college) the Roster with the MOST talented position players usually beats the team with inferior offensive fire power.

But in MLB, Pitching, Defense, Timely Hitting, Quality At Bats, Chemistry and Intangibles over a 162++ game schedule usually add up to a successful season versus the ABSOLUTE of WHAT name is on the lineup card or over the lockers in their clubhouse.

It is HOW those players chosen by a Front Office “play together”, and executes successfully the offensive situations that appear within the games within the game.

ClutchUp

Bapah says: December 28th, 2011 at 3:50 pm Well, I thought Clutch would have singled out JD for her outstanding post. He didn’t, so I will.

*Great wing-men are hard to locate. Thank you for batting clean-up and rewarding JD with a thumbs up.

I too found JD spot on, but then again I can’t remember when I have not found her to be always relevent. Maybe her law enforcement tribulations have allowed her a much appreciated perspective.

If JD still owns her “I survived Catholic School” Tee shirt, then her “walking-on-water” days can’t be far behind 😉 😉

mitchvman

Clutch 990.

Ok then. If the Giants do (miraculously) sign Fiedler do not be happy about it! Also, don’t think that he will make everybody else in the lineup better. Your comments sound like those of defeat and therefore, claiming why you never wanted it in the first place!

Also, the mantra in recent weeks is that the Giants are “saving” their money for pitching. Well, as I claimed all along they can do both!

Furthermore, how is that working out? The Giants are still being cheap and Timmy & Cain may indeed walk! The prospects Brown, Panik, Belt (building from within) may never pan out. Then this “window” we have will be closed and no more rings! OOPS!

You play for today for tomorrow may never come!

Mavo

Great post Clutch!!! One of the all time great posts on here actually!!! BRAVO!!

ClutchUp

@ Mitch – Your comments sound like those of defeat and therefore, claiming why you never wanted it in the first place!

* That’s not how I felt, but 😉 thank you for inserting incorrectly how you thought I am thinking…

Baseball’s parity decade requires a true SF Fan to be prepared for every emotion known to man-kind. Nobody can be the 27 Yankees nor the Joe Torre led Yankees.

162=Too many games to have one template that wins all the time.

Mavo

I will point out yet again that some of the figures bandied about here about how much the Giants COULD spend responsibly … are pure speculation. I have it on excellent authority that the Giants ARE being responsible with a 130 million payroll this season. That leaves them some wiggle room around the trading deadline that will allow them to take on some salary to make a late season run. People forget that they still are paying off the debt on Willie Mays Field. Besides we saw with the Red Sox and six other top ten payroll teams last year … that spending the most guarantees NOTHING! For a better understanding of why just read Clutchup’s excellent post on here at 4:12 today … IMO one of the great posts ever on this blog!!

The rantings and ravings of others on here for the Giants to sign Fielder are just that … rantings of impatient fans who have no idea of how to build a fiscally sound baseball franchise that will compete on the field year in and year out!

Mavo

Besides WHO wants a overweight idiot like Fielder … regardless of how many HRs he hits? He may go immediately in the tank and gain even more weight once he signs a big lifetime contract. And his character on the field is questionable at best! And finally he will NEVER sign in SF where his HR totals would not match his ego by playing 81 at our yard. The Giants are being wise in taking a chance on Belt as the long-term solution at 1B. He’ll be a star very soon in the big leagues if not this year. I was at the game when he hit a LONG splash HR last September and his power is just now coming to the fore! This kid could be BETTER than Fielder when all is said and done … and the Giants KNOW that!!

mitchvman

Yawn!

ClutchUp

Because Prince has done several idiotic things in his career does not make him an idiot per say. We throw the word IDIOT around too loosely especially since we were front-hand-witnesses to the ONE whose name we shall not be mentioned. Prince’s dad Cecil was a suspect-lack of character-type dad and those things have an effect of the sons of fathers like that.

Choose the use of the word “I” (idiot) wisely, in my humble opinion.

The Pedigree of sons of former players goes without saying: Boone-Bonds-Griffey-Fielder-Alomar-Bell-Camilli-Francona-Gwynn-Hundley-Kendall-Lanier-Law and others are fathers and sons who have had a wide range of successes.

Unfortunately for Prince – he has the so called Pete Rose formula whereby we “love ’em” if there on our side and despise them when they are the adversary.

Prince has shown so far that he can PLAY. 162 out of 162. His body’s DNA and composition almost had no choice! 😉

That said, like Mavo said, I want to have the pleasure and grimaces to watch Belt develop. BB will be a 3 step forward kid and 5 step backward kid, thus be patient. There is some Darryl Strawberry in Brandon Belts’ offensive game with Brandon being a lot more GROUNDED in his off the field activities.

mitchvman

Clutch 994.

If that is not how you feel. Sure read that way! My apologies if inaccurate!

Of course there are no guarantees in life and/or baseball. However, I would rather play that 162 round of Russian roulette with an extremely athletic Fiedler who can just flat out play/hit, that without him.

My guess is, so would everyone else sans one person!

Again, the Giants are not even close to their “fiscally” responsible threshold. Our personal comfortably with the number spent is irrelevant ( as much as we like to think it is coming out of our pockets). As far as “guarantees” go,