I've lived in the US in the past, so I know life on both sides of the border. While the US and Canada share a lot of similarities, its still significantly different in many ways. I have always considered Canada a more centrist country in a general sense. The US has more extremism in a general sense, although its not a banana republic obviously. I always get a laugh out of Americans who think we're a progressive paradise, Canada is actually far more centrist in many ways than things that happen state side. We often have a lot more raw capitalism here in many ways, e.g. no corn subsidies, far less corporate welfare at the local level, Canada clearly relies far more on consumption taxes through the GST/HST, fuel taxes while our income and property taxes actually average below the US, etc.

What I cannot square away is how Americans put up with the health care system they have. When I was on contract in the states a decade ago, I had to purchase an individual health policy and it was insane. You were limited to the doctor networks that the Blue Cross plan allowed only (so much for doctor choice, here in Ontario you visit any doc or hospital you want) and aside from paying a lot every month to still have deductibles, co-pays, co-insurance fees I learned that insurance companies in the US retain the right to deny coverage on doctor visits you've already had?!? I ended up having some small medical issues when I was state side, and when I left I actually left thousands of unpaid doctor bills and I never looked back. I couldn't get Blue Cross to pay the damn bills they were obligated to pay, so I guess the docs never got money. That's not fair to them, it wasn't fair to me.

The Canadian health system is not perfect, but I'd rather wait a few weeks for a non-emergent specialist visit here than to put up with that nightmare state side. I did not experience health choice there, I went to the Blue Cross network doctors and they still denied payment on some procedures I had down there. It was a frightening system. I wouldn't want to rely on it for an actual health crisis, because I had relatively minor issues.

We should rightfully complain about the problems that exist here in Ontario with our health system, but I do so with the clear understanding that we could have it far, far worse.

The same political research firm that prepared a dossier on Trump campaign ties to Russia had unrelated information on Clinton Foundation donors that a Russian lawyer obtained and offered to President Donald Trump’s eldest son last year, three sources familiar with the matter said.

The sources told Reuters that the negative information that Russian lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya wanted to give to Republican Trump’s campaign at a June 2016 meeting in New York had been dug up by Fusion GPS in an unrelated investigation.

Glenn Simpson, one of Fusion GPS’ founders, met with Veselnitskaya about that litigation before and after her meeting with Trump Jr., Kushner and Manafort, according to a source familiar with the matter.

However, a source familiar with 10 hours of testimony Simpson gave the Senate Judiciary committee in August said he told investigators he did not know of Veselnitskaya’s Trump Tower meeting until reports of it appeared in the media.

Looks like most of the "smoke" regarding Russian collusion always seems to lead back to Fusion GPS. Interesting that Simpson decided to lie to the Senate Judiciary committee. Maybe he realized he'd be in trouble if it was found that he was attempting to collude with Russians to entrap the Trump campaign...

Quite agreed. I mean I was actually more left in my younger days, and definitely understand it. Heck, I'm a minority immigrant that benefited hugely from progressive policies. I did one of those tests and I'm actually more left as well as Libertarian than 'right' and 'conservative'. But there is definitely a certain maniacal pitbull approach and attitude by certain 'Leftists' that are just unending in their anger and spite. I mean if Hillary won, I wouldn't be in a thread taking it all personal. But vice versa.. it is that intolerant dictatorial 'strike and bite' like a snake scorn that is just too prevalent. You're right.. I learned in Philosophy that "Liberal" is intended to be progressive and therefore open in their views. This is hardly the case today in today's "Liberals". And of course, it's always Hitler that has to be brought up.

Since you commented again, I'm obliged to respond. Quite frankly, with "logic" as employed by people like, well unfortunately even you, - it's a useless endeavour to engage in an exchange of ideas. Moreso when the politics and modus operandi of Trump is extremely distasteful and detrimental to many people. I doubt you were ever leftist or progressive or whatever term you want to use. If you were you wouldn't be a Trump supporter - that much is clear. As to Hitler, the term was simply - everyone has their die hard supporters, and for someone like Trump to as well, it just makes perfect sense. Every single person has their die hard supporters and the Hitler example is most apt because it shows the extremity of human emotion - that even if a leader persecutes others, is authoritarian, even cruel, many people will still support them. It's not a throw away term. In the case of Donald J Trump and his Trump family, the term is more than adequate and relevant. Too bad if you don't agree but that lack of open mindedness is on you.

If you're talking about American politics instead of politics here in Canada, then I would say Americans don't actually know political terms that well. They very much have a bubble in political thinking and they try and fit everything into a liberal-conservative dichotomy when there's more complexity to politics. I rarely meet an American who understands that liberalism is actually closer to centrism, but instead they use socialism and liberalism as synonyms. For example: the American concept of suggesting that universal health insurance is somehow a leftist plot is a joke (yet I hear the meme over and over from yanks), I've always thought our health care system wasn't just good for people, it is much less expensive for our businesses big and small, it frees up individuals to explore entrepreneurship, it frees us as individuals to seek out self employment and contracts in where we don't have to feel obligated to only look to government jobs and/or big business corporate jobs just to have decent health coverage. I see our single payer heath system as making capitalism work more effectively, Americans see it as the coming of Lenin and Stalin.

Perspectives are different depending on who you ask.

Good points, and I've seen the same. Why are Americans so anti-socialist. The health care system proposed by people like Bernie Sanders is the same in the UK, Australia, Denmark etc yet they want to brand him as a devil communist. I think that the Americans appear to lack a wider world view and education? I've heard that not many travel outside their country so perhaps they really don't know what they don't know. I do find it ironic how much they have embraced Putin and Russia because of Trump, despite Putin and Russia ACTUALLY being a valid political and military threat against their country.

Besides your rant about leftists and their noses, and in the next sentence preaching tolerance, some of your points are well taken and interesting to note.

Good points, and I've seen the same. Why are Americans so anti-socialist. The health care system proposed by people like Bernie Sanders is the same in the UK, Australia, Denmark etc yet they want to brand him as a devil communist. I think that the Americans appear to lack a wider world view and education? I've heard that not many travel outside their country so perhaps they really don't know what they don't know. I do find it ironic how much they have embraced Putin and Russia because of Trump, despite Putin and Russia ACTUALLY being a valid political and military threat against their country.

Besides your rant about leftists and their noses, and in the next sentence preaching tolerance, some of your points are well taken and interesting to note.

Americans haven't embraced Putin because of Trump. This is something you fabricated in your own head, likely from Trump-Russia conspiracies, but given your confusion about American views I can see why you're having trouble with this too.

I can't give you a sentence or two reply that would help you understand American views. I can just suggest you research more or maybe talk to someone who will invest the time to help you understand.

The American healthcare system is something I agree is utterly chaotic. In many ways it's already semi-socialist.. at least a hundred million people are covered for healthcare either through federal government (medicare, VA, etc.), state government (e.g. state medicare), or county/city governments (e.g. CMSP). There's many public hospitals that can't legally say no to anyone who is uninsured, so regardless of if anyone pays, taxpayers are funding those hospitals.

As an American myself the main benefit of Canadian universal is two very simple traits: 1) The costs are realized. Can't even begin to figure out how much money you're losing or saving until you know the true cost. The American system is only estimated, but nonetheless, it's unambiguously higher than anywhere else in the first world. 2) Costs are minimized and assets are moved in accordance to the usage. The American system is so ridiculously embellished with so many unnecessary amounts of beds and machinery, this is easily one of the culprits of why those costs are then forwarded on to insurers/government.

Speaking of government again.. the government providers have to compete with the inflated insurers or else doctors/hospitals/etc won't have an agreement with them.

Insurance is largely a mandate especially since Obamacare, which means a mandate to inflated prices. Every critic knew Obamacare would raise the costs and sure enough it did, with the usual partisan suspects, who were initially denying it would, suddenly defending the costs. Pretty funny how politics brings about fanaticism.

Besides your rant about leftists and their noses, and in the next sentence preaching tolerance, some of your points are well taken and interesting to note.

It honestly isn't a rant. It is a description of discussions I've had in the past, in real life. I actually remain rather calm and collected when I discuss politics, it doesn't move me like it does some people. I am not bound to party lines when it comes to political discussions. Socialism has some features that are beneficial, but overall its an abysmal failure as its too idealistic. It restricts people, it puts people in boxes they can't get out of, and its not ideal for every situation. But it has good features, yes. We need a basic level of income guarantee, housing policy that promotes rational pricing, a basic level of health care, and a basic level of education guaranteed. Capitalism has produced the best living conditions the world has known, but again many of its features are abysmal as well and need tempering by public policy. When I travel to the US and see the division of incomes and how wealthy some areas are and how terrifically terrible others are, I am reminded of capitalism's failures. The market doesn't have every last answer. The more people that understand this and accept this, the better off our world will be. Government's proper role is making our lives easier by tempering the market where needed, but getting out of the way where its not needed.

And as someone who very much loves Canada and would like people to appreciate what we have here more, I think we do a better job of it than the US.

Last edited by ConsumerBran on Nov 10th, 2017 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

It honestly isn't a rant. It is a description of discussions I've had in the past, in real life. I actually remain rather calm and collected when I discuss politics, it doesn't move me like it does some people. I am not bound to party lines when it comes to political discussions. Socialism has some features that are beneficial, but overall its an abysmal failure as its too idealistic. Capitalism has produced the best living conditions the world has known, but again many of its features are abysmal as well and need tempering by public policy. The more people that understand this and accept this, the better off our world will be. Government's proper role is making our lives easier by tempering the market where needed, but getting out of the way where its not needed.

And as someone who very much loves Canada and would like people to appreciate what we have here more, I think we do a better job of it than the US.

Capitalism is so bad, you can just see how all the increasingly socialist countries get all the wonderful things.. take Venezuela for example and all the millions of Americans fleeing to be in the Venezuelan utopia.

The American healthcare system is something I agree is utterly chaotic. In many ways it's already semi-socialist.. at least a hundred million people are covered for healthcare either through federal government (medicare, VA, etc.), state government (e.g. state medicare), or county/city governments (e.g. CMSP). There's many public hospitals that can't legally say no to anyone who is uninsured, so regardless of if anyone pays, taxpayers are funding those hospitals.

That last sentence is true; however, when I was doing contract work in the states I had a few relatively basic medical issues that cropped up in my years down there, and when my Blue Cross plan decided it wouldn't pay out for a small procedure I had (they had coverage at the doctor office I went to, but they deemed the procedure optional), I subsequently dropped paying them when they refused to pay the doctor office for their work. I felt insulted that they weren't paying my bills, so I stopped paying them. And I'm not really that concerned with pride since this is a relatively anonymous forum, it was a cyst I needed removed and had put off going to the doctor for many months. The pain became unbearable at one point so I eventually had to get a small surgical procedure to get it out. It cost thousands of dollars US in 2008 to go from a consulting visit to eventually a surgeon who removed it. The insurance company denied payment on the entire thing (aside from the initial consultation visit, which is not much) as it was deemed optional in their opinion. Let me repeat: I had an insurance policy. I went to an in-network US doctor on that Blue Cross plan. I paid every premium that was hundreds of dollars a month. The private insurance company denied payment on the procedure I had even though I was insured.

Obviously, I was uninsured after that point since I stopped paying them, so I got the flu one year after that and went to a public hospital in the states to get to a doctor as I was dehydrating to the point of fainting more than once. I wasn't retaining fluids. All they did was essentially admit me to the ER, run a few IV's through me to hydrate me, and then gave me an anti-flu viral medication I think it was, or whatever meds they give people with horrible flu symptoms. This was the year 2008, just before Obama was elected. So I know so-called Obamacare had nothing to do with my problems in the US system. And a disclaimer: at that point, I assumed public hospitals in the states were free since everyone says they have to offer care, just like you're telling me.

What happened next? Sure, public hospital ER's in the US are required by law to provide emergency treatment. That's true. I experienced this. But I checked my US credit report just to see all the collections pour in after that (just after the previous year where I was deluged with bills I could not pay). I received bills from the doctors involved in my treatment (I remember the case well, one doc started treatment, during my stay they had a shift change so another doc took over and also billed), there was a separate radiology bill they sent because they took an x-ray of my chest since it had fluid/infection because it was severe flu that was also causing pneumonia I guess since my immune system was hit pretty hard, I had literally a hundred different bills between the hospital, the doctors, the labs and radiology that arrived and went into collections. It was all over a thousand bucks, I don't remember the exact amount. For two IV saline bags, an Xray to examine my chest to see if pneumonia set in or not, and a prescription of Tamiflu?! That's insanity. The US system is abhorrent guys.

In other words, if I were a permanent US resident/citizen my credit would have been ruined. I wouldn't be able to own a new car, I wouldn't be able to qualify for a mortgage.

Health care even at public institutions in the US is broken. It isn't free. That might be why Americans are afraid of things they don't understand? I ended up leaving the US very quickly after that situation. I refused to be sucked into the disaster of a health care system they have, it ruined a credit report I never ended up using. LOL But I realized what Americans deal with, its abhorrent. And the care, quite frankly, wasn't that great. I sat in that ER for 4 hours before a doctor saw me. Shorter wait times my ass... I always get good care here in Toronto. I didn't experience this wonderful system down there, quite the opposite. Care was acceptable (despite the 4 hour wait, I felt the care I received was good, ER's are hectic no matter how the medical system is financed), but the billing nightmare is uniquely an American problem. They need more public involvement in health delivery. Private insurance in the states retains the right to deny payment, its like Russian roulette down there.

Like I said, I know we have problems with our health system in Ontario. It always needs improvement, but OHIP is essentially competent and functional. Health insurance programs in the states are insane. Canadians need to understand that most Americans do not choose their doctors per se, they have a restricted network based on the private insurance program that they must adhere to. You can choose any hospital here, just walk in, and OHIP covers you. It plain doesn't matter, and that's how it should be. What the Americans put up with I'll never understand.

I am lucky, I was able to flee the US and leave that behind since that's not my primary residence. Americans have to live with it. I never told any of the medical professionals or insurance companies I was a Canadian, so luckily the debt never followed me. I learned from life experience on that one.

Last edited by ConsumerBran on Nov 10th, 2017 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

It honestly isn't a rant. It is a description of discussions I've had in the past, in real life. I actually remain rather calm and collected when I discuss politics, it doesn't move me like it does some people. I am not bound to party lines when it comes to political discussions. Socialism has some features that are beneficial, but overall its an abysmal failure as its too idealistic. It restricts people, it puts people in boxes they can't get out of, and its not ideal for every situation. But it has good features, yes. We need a basic level of income guarantee, housing policy that promotes rational pricing, a basic level of health care, and a basic level of education guaranteed. Capitalism has produced the best living conditions the world has known, but again many of its features are abysmal as well and need tempering by public policy. When I travel to the US and see the division of incomes and how wealthy some areas are and how terrifically terrible others are, I am reminded of capitalism's failures. The market doesn't have every last answer. The more people that understand this and accept this, the better off our world will be. Government's proper role is making our lives easier by tempering the market where needed, but getting out of the way where its not needed.

And as someone who very much loves Canada and would like people to appreciate what we have here more, I think we do a better job of it than the US.

You missed my point. Australia UK Denmark etc aren't socialists. The point was that the Americans don't seem to understand that and lump everything in with communism/socialism. Most developed countries have a very simple and clear ethos - taxes support society. You go on and on about the state of the health care system and that is a clear example. America is entrenched in its ways due to corrupt politicians who are bought for by big pharma and partisan politics. You speak of theory such as government intervening where necessary and getting out of the way otherwise - that is what the governments in America aim for, especially the Republicans. You ask why the Americans put up with it? Again, they have no choice - it is the end result of failed and very broken, partisan and toxic politics, not to mention the intense hate that is now flourishing in the populations. You only have to look at this thread to see all the insults and labeling of people who are apparently enemies.

^I'm new here, I haven't read much. But any political discussion often turns toxic. As I said, people love to moralize to others. We all try and do it, but some are just absurd about it. When I discuss these issues, I try to be informative. I bring a point of view, but I try to provide my own experiences and thoughts. I'm not here to tell you how to live.

I got your point, I was essentially saying the same thing in different ways. I agree: Americans often misunderstand political terminology. They use terms and memes that are hilarious until you realize they are saying it with a straight face.

It was obvious to me how they understood it - because of the derision. What surprises me is how they do not change their mind in light of facts e.g Canada, Australia UK, Denmark - many countries are provided as examples to them demonstrating that socialism does not equate to communism, but no they seem to have some weird, close minded mindset (amongst Republicans mostly from the looks of things) which see any attempt to balance the load on the community as the Devil's work.

They really are grasping at any straws they can to make themselves seem logical.

Hence why Hitler has made the umpteenth appearance in a Trump discussion.

The difficulty of handling reality really is present in these people. And it'll only get worse as people increasingly go to their corner of social media and the internet and shut out dissenting voices. I'm no Ben Shapiro (in fact he's a hell of a lot less liberal than I am) but I've noted as well the increasing difficulty people of all political backgrounds have with other opinions and things they don't want to see/hear/read, but in 2017 leftists stand out by far as the biggest babies. They're become a very serious threat to liberal values of freedom all because they think the world needs to adjust to their self-imposed sensitivities and not vice versa.

Holy shit!!! I may have underestimated you Andy! Looks like you actually do have brains Interesting!!

Not going to get into the whole shebang of the Cdn vs American Medical Systems, but I will say this.

Americans due to the history of their country's founding has different ideas on how things should be done.

They are afraid of any socialized / all for one mentality. Everything is about pure capitalism... the guy with the most bucks wins. Period

Where that goes off the rails is when it comes to "Socialized" Health & Medical Care. The downfall in their system has always been giving the Insurance companies (the moneymakers) too much say in the entire process.

They have too much power. They put money before humanitarian interests. At the expense of the common man.

Its sad.

And sadder yet, those who cannot afford care for themselves or their loved ones when the Insurance companies refuse coverage... but somehow they've been brainwashed by the "American Way" to believe that supreme capitalism is the answer to everything good. Clearly if you or your family has to go bankrupt to get the care you need for yourself or a loved one it isn't.

Obama care was far from perfect, more like a compromise. And there are still Insurance Companies in the middle with too much power. BUT what Obama Care did do was given the Average Joe & Jane a look at what organized / affordable healthcare looks like. That was one thing that stood out at Town Hall Meetings across America last year, the common folk, not the wealthy, on both sides of the political fence, had enough of a taste that they did not want to see the Affordable Health Care Act (the real name for Obama Care) abandoned. Tweeked perhaps. But not disbanded to go back to what was before.