I see no need to muck that simplicity up with religions. I can however understand how early humans would. What I can do is not let those earlier humans have suffered in vain. You know the ones who died by the hands of the religious. ;)

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Star Stuff on May 08, 2014, 09:26:38 AM

Thank you for displaying that Freud was correct:

"The idea of god was not a lie but a device of the unconscious which needed to be decoded by psychology. A personal god was nothing more than an exalted father-figure. Desire for such a deity sprang from infantile yearnings for a powerful, protective father; for justice and fairness and for life to go on forever. God is simply a projection of these desires, feared and worshipped by human beings out of an abiding sense of helplessness. Religion belonged to the infancy of the human race; it had been a necessary stage in the transition from childhood to maturity. It had promoted ethical values which were essential to society. Now that humanity had come of age, however, it should be left behind."

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: penfold on May 08, 2014, 09:45:38 AM

Don't think she did, rather I think you found that it was possible to apply a Freudian analysis to what she said. They are not the same thing.

Anyhow Freud's analysis is palpable bollocks; apart from the fact that it is completely unfalsifiable (and thus of the same intellectual merit as the claims of religion itself), it is also laughably reductive.

The far more interesting early psychologist William James makes the following comment about the Freudian reduction of all God-talk to disguised infantile sexual development:

It seems to me that few conceptions are less instructive that this re-interpretation of religion as repressed sexuality … It is true that in the vast collection of religious phenomena, some are undisguisedly amatory … [ie] ecstatic feelings of union with the Saviour in a few Christian mystics. … Religious language clothes itself in such poor symbols as out life affords … Language drawn from eating and drinking is probably as common in religious literature as language drawn from the sexual life. We ‘hunger and thirst’ after righteousness; we ‘find the Lord a sweet saviour’; we ‘taste and see that he is good’ …[1]

Just because religious people use the language of parenthood to talk of God, does not mean that God can be reduced to a subconscious longing for a father - any more than the fact I say 'bless you' when someone sneezes, or 'oh my God!' when startled, points to some subconscious longing for divinity.

Read her points again, and see if they can & do indeed reflect parallels of her god idea with a father figure:

Life is a gift = God is The Giver.

I mean the source of life.

I mean my comforter.

A power greater than myself.

Yes there are parallels but that does not entail she is talking about a father! I could equally find parallels between these characteristics and the sun (source of all life - check; comforter - check; power greater than myself - check) - in fact I could argue that the sun is a better analogy than father. But it would be silly to claim that Junebug's idea of God is really a subconscious longing for the Sun - just as silly, in fact, as claiming her idea of God is really a subconscious longing for a father.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Star Stuff on May 08, 2014, 10:03:28 AM

Yes there are parallels but that does not entail she is talking about a father!

I'm not suggesting that she is consciously talking about/yearning for a father figure, but that such thoughts & beliefs stem from childhood and get mapped onto or morph into knee-jerk explanations for our existence and place in the cosmos. And it's so easy to remain in said infantile state.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: penfold on May 08, 2014, 10:09:40 AM

Yes there are parallels but that does not entail she is talking about a father!

I'm not suggesting that she is consciously talking about/yearning for a father figure, but that such thoughts & beliefs stem from childhood and get mapped onto or morph into knee-jerk explanations for our existence and place in the cosmos. And it's so easy to remain in said infantile state.

Maybe so, maybe not. I still have no idea how one could prove such a thing - again I could equally invent some plausible sounding story about the Sun rather than a father - what evidence or reason could you provide to prefer your father-story over my sun-story?

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Star Stuff on May 08, 2014, 10:20:27 AM

Because your sun displays none of the characteristics of an earthly father. Here's an opportunity for everyone to chime-in on some of "god's" characteristics which parallels human fathers. I'll start with a few:

- Male. (ever notice how god is always referred to as "He")

- In charge.

- Provider.

- Disciplinarian.

- Sits on a throne (includes sofa's & recliners).

- Has strong hands.

- Has a loud booming voice.

- Gets angry.

- Forgives.

- Demands obedience.

- Demands submission.

- Rewards.

.....and I'm sure hundred's more.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: penfold on May 08, 2014, 10:36:05 AM

Because your sun displays none of the characteristics of an earthly father. Here's an opportunity for everyone to chime-in on some of "god's" characteristics which parallels human fathers. I'll start with a few:

.....and I'm sure hundred's more.

I can come up with my own list:

- illuminates

- nourishes

- warm

- perfect

- overpowering

- source of life

- Constant

- Unchanging

- Providing structure

- Transcendent

- Unmoved mover

- Source of salvation and re-birth

etc...

But it doesn't really matter what parallels with the idea of a father you can find or parallels with the Sun I can find. We don't need to look far for the 'father' one in any event: God, in the Xian tradition is called Father! Though this, being a conscious rather than subconscious epithet would undermine, rather than support Freud's theory.

I feel you've missed my point so I'll re-iterate:

i) Just because the idea of God and the idea of father share parallels that is not proof that God is merely a subconscious longing for a father. You have not provided a causal link; I could equally argue that modern notions of fatherhood are subconscious acting out of the God-myth! Put formally: correlation is not causation, and your claim is unfalsifiable (a point I've raised twice now with no response).

ii) The analysis is too reductive; the fact that we describe God with the language of authority is not surprising, nor then is it surprising if this language is what refers to other authority figures (like fathers) - but God is a far richer and more diverse concept than that of the father - your analysis ignores this.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Star Stuff on May 08, 2014, 10:43:32 AM

But we are not born from spherical balls of gas.

Correlation is not causation indeed, but sometimes it is.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 08, 2014, 10:49:04 AM

Because your sun displays none of the characteristics of an earthly father. Here's an opportunity for everyone to chime-in on some of "god's" characteristics which parallels human fathers. I'll start with a few:

- Male. (ever notice how god is always referred to as "He")

- In charge.

- Provider.

- Disciplinarian.

- Sits on a throne (includes sofa's & recliners).

- Has strong hands.

- Has a loud booming voice.

- Gets angry.

- Forgives.

- Demands obedience.

- Demands submission.

- Rewards.

.....and I'm sure hundred's more.

I did not define God this way you are.

Forgives, maybe, I see it more as understanding. The rest of this list is religion's responsibility; not mine.

Nope I don't refer to God as "He". Go ahead check it out. Maybe 2-3 times when I first joined but I have for many years entertained the idea that God is not human therefor male and female may not apply in "It's" characteristics. 8)

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: penfold on May 08, 2014, 10:52:05 AM

Freud (and you) are making a factual claim. To be a factual claim it must be falsifiable, that is there must be something I can measure which has the potential to show the claim to be false.

This is the problem with Freud, it is all very elegant, but there is no method of falsification - all he provides us with is story and myth.

If you could show me that, for example, people with absent fathers are more likely to believe in God, or that there is less belief in God in matriarchal societies, or that people angry with their fathers are more likely to be angry with God - then I might be slightly more sympathetic to your cause, though none of these would be even close to conclusive.

You can believe what you want, but personally I reject Freud's theories for the same reason I reject God - a complete lack of falsifiability.

Ahh, then this is what you're getting hung up on. No, I am not stating that this Freudian concept is "absolute fact", rather, that I think there is significant truth to it. I hold this (and most all) views tentatively.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 08, 2014, 11:16:12 AM

Ahh, then this is what you're getting hung up on. No, I am not stating that this Freudian concept is "absolute fact", rather, that I think there is significant truth to it. I hold this (and most all) views tentatively.

So you think early humans felt fatherless? I believe it was/is inspired by the awesomeness of their existence on this beautiful but dangerous planet.

They knew their lives were not completely in their own hands.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Star Stuff on May 08, 2014, 11:36:08 AM

I am saying that early humans came up with the idea of God. I don't think they had daddy issues but rather had an awe of the universe. I am saying they knew their lives came from/depended on, powers beyond their control.

I hope this clears it up for you. ;D

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Star Stuff on May 08, 2014, 12:16:25 PM

I don't think they guessed there were great powers at work beyond their control.I think they were wrong to believe that sacrifices and religious worship would somehow please this power.

Interesting how it all comes back to what "you think". You conveniently get to pick & choose over history what humanity was right & wrong about, so long as it aligns with what you think.

Quote

I think they were far more intimate with the "universe" than we are. We have all these modern conveniences. They were exposed. I Imagine a very humbling experience.

They may have been more in tune with their immediate earthly environment for hunting & resources, but they had no concept of the universe as we now have thanks to science and our exploration & technology.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 09, 2014, 07:17:11 AM

I don't think they guessed there were great powers at work beyond their control.I think they were wrong to believe that sacrifices and religious worship would somehow please this power.

Interesting how it all comes back to what "you think". You conveniently get to pick & choose over history what humanity was right & wrong about, so long as it aligns with what you think.

Quote

I think they were far more intimate with the "universe" than we are. We have all these modern conveniences. They were exposed. I Imagine a very humbling experience.

They may have been more in tune with their immediate earthly environment for hunting & resources, but they had no concept of the universe as we now have thanks to science and our exploration & technology.

OMG Star. There were and still are powers at work beyond our control. geeze! You should show a little more respect for those first humans. They went through a lot so that we could have what we have today!!! They could not help that they didn't know what we know which still does not detour belief in God/Gods. For myself that knowledge you speak of enforces my belief in God and diminishes religious belief.

Religion is what sucks. >:(

By the by, your first comment is you doing what you're accusing me of. You're only refuting my comment because it does not align with what you think. I am pretty sure, like 99.9%, that the first humans did not have daddy issues. They had an awe of the universe and the planet. A respect for the powers of the sun, thunderstorms, tornadoes, etc.. They were desperate. Desperate people do desperate things like sacrifice life to those things. Still do. Not to the same extremes but the religious still sacrifice humanity for their desperation.

One more thing. My dad was not a power greater than myself. We are/were both human. He did not create life on Earth. He wasn't even born until 1943. He was not my comforter. I had no human comforter. I had no one but God to comfort me. That is why my belief is strong and non religious.

I think between penfold and myself you should reconsider your's and Freud's position on god belief stemming from daddy issues. ;)

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Star Stuff on May 10, 2014, 09:18:30 AM

What stands out to me is that it's quite possible that you seek out the comfort that you never got from your father, and find it in an imaginary father.

Why would I want another father. My mom did not comfort me either. In fact they were both a large part of my emotional and sometimes physical pain.

Even if I did believe, which I don't, that my belief stems from parental let downs that still does not explain how early humans defined god/s. In fact it was those parental let downs that caused me to believe God did not exist for a long time. How could a god/s let me get hurt this way. That kind of stuff.

My belief comes way more from my awe of life and the universe.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 10, 2014, 10:15:16 AM

Gotta go get some produce. TTYL.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 11, 2014, 05:48:37 AM

What stands out to me is that it's quite possible that you seek out the comfort that you never got from your father, and find it in an imaginary father.

I was in a hurry yesterday.

So let's say you're right. How did this "imaginary" father comfort me? Would I have survived w/o it and how?

Why did my belief not stop when my dad and I made up?

It didn't comfort you, you comforted yourself, because you made the idea of your own god.Yes, you would have survived. All you had to say was, "Well even though it's not real, I am a strong human, I can survive without fairytales."Why would you want to stop believing in eternal life? I know you don't. Thats why you kept believing. Why would you convince yourself that "This is all there is", seeing as in the past you pretty much depended on the idea of your god.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: median on May 11, 2014, 10:06:26 AM

I see no need to muck that simplicity up with religions. I can however understand how early humans would. What I can do is not let those earlier humans have suffered in vain. You know the ones who died by the hands of the religious. ;)

So basically for you, "God" is just electrical signals operating within the limits of biology and natural physics? What do you mean by "a power greater than myself"?

Further, what makes you think that "Life is a gift"? How can you demonstrate that life (as we know it) was given by a someone? Aren't you just assuming?

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Add Homonym on May 11, 2014, 10:12:04 AM

Maybe their second guess. The earlier native people's tended to have a spirit religion that helped them see themselves as part of the land and environment. Somehow they developed healing systems with advanced knowledge of plants, and theorized that this was all part of their planned/integrated environment.

It all gets woven into one big story. Maybe for entertainment, because otherwise they would get bored, and wonder what the point of living in a jungle was.

I think the father-type religions might have evolved with the agrarian communities, who needed more law and punishment.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 12, 2014, 05:33:49 AM

What stands out to me is that it's quite possible that you seek out the comfort that you never got from your father, and find it in an imaginary father.

I was in a hurry yesterday.

So let's say you're right. How did this "imaginary" father comfort me? Would I have survived w/o it and how?

Why did my belief not stop when my dad and I made up?

It didn't comfort you, you comforted yourself, because you made the idea of your own god.Yes, you would have survived. All you had to say was, "Well even though it's not real, I am a strong human, I can survive without fairytales."Why would you want to stop believing in eternal life? I know you don't. Thats why you kept believing. Why would you convince yourself that "This is all there is", seeing as in the past you pretty much depended on the idea of your god.

It could've been myself but I don't think so.

I have only depended on God for comfort. Everything else in my life I am responsible for but not my comfort.

What makes you think I have convinced myself, "this is all there is"?

The religions are not fairy tales they are horror stories. Especially Noah's Ark.

Eternal life to me is a myth. This life of mine is not eternal. My body will be cremated. I believe my spirit will be freed from my body. Other than that I just don't know. I sure as hell don't believe in any hell. :) Don't believe in streets of gold either. Just freedom really from pain, from sadness. :angel:

You are right to the extent that the biblical heaven was the last lingering part of religion associated with my belief. Thanks to WWGHA I let that go.

I am a hopeless romantic so I see me and TR making love on all the stars and moons etc... :) Imagine that w/o a body. :laugh: Being able to completely connect with your lover. Talk about ecstasy! :P

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: eh! on May 12, 2014, 05:55:21 AM

When i say god i am either talking about a particular character defined by a specific religion. so if i say god to a Muslim i am talking about Allah. a xtian yaweh...etc.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 12, 2014, 05:56:50 AM

Further, what makes you think that "Life is a gift"? How can you demonstrate that life (as we know it) was given by a someone? Aren't you just assuming?

It sounded good. ;)

I think you are assuming that I mean "someone" and not "something". So let me rephrase: Life is a Gift=Something is the "Giver"

I believe that "something" has been defined poorly/horribly over the years but I do believe in "something". I do not know what "something" is made of or how it came to be. I know "something" exists because I exist. I call "something" God.

Thanks for helping me to clear this up. If I did. :D

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 12, 2014, 05:59:28 AM

^ You have just made up your own religion to suit how you want god to be.

Please explain how I made up a religion. I am not trying to get anyone to follow me just understand me. I am not worthy of such a task.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: eh! on May 12, 2014, 06:31:31 AM

You're not worthy comment is just residual detritus from your xtian days.... it had no real meaning. you have been given the belief you are not worthy by systematic trauma/brainwashing. in reality it does not mean anything.

your religion you have invented for yourself is also a symptom of that same trauma.

i hope you can one day be free.

understand each other?....we really are islands. learn to get along is the best we can ever do, and we are shit at it.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 12, 2014, 06:43:53 AM

You're not worthy comment is just residual detritus from your xtian days.... it had no real meaning. you have been given the belief you are not worthy by systematic trauma/brainwashing. in reality it does not mean anything.

your religion you have invented for yourself is also a symptom of that same trauma.

i hope you can one day be free.

understand each other?....we really are islands. learn to get along is the best we can ever do, and we are shit at it.

You have the right to an opinion. It doesn't explain anything though.

I am working real hard to get along. Actually it's not that hard, you guys are cool. It's me that needs improving. I was very sensitive during my breast cancer experience. I will always remember the love and support I was shown here. I will forget the rest.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: eh! on May 12, 2014, 06:48:56 AM

Everyone has a right to an opinion, mine are just better. that's why xtianity woul be hard for me the whole you are unworthy shit they spin. i am just too fuking awesome in every way possible.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 12, 2014, 06:51:04 AM

I'm not sure but I have this hypothesis that God was created in the Big Bang.

How do you plan on carrying out this hypothesis?

And how does it make sense that a random-seeming explosion created an infinitely complex being?

First, I know from experience that when things are condensed it makes things stronger. I think this happened because matter was so dense while brewing up the Big Bang.

Second, It's a falsifiable claim.

I'm putting the idea out there. That's about all I can do right now. I have shared it here to get feedback. There is a thread in the shelter about it. Xyzzy sure helped. Smart guy.

I have said here many times I believe in a natural God. I think all things must adhere to the laws of NATURE. I don't believe in supernatural things, santa, EBunny, TFairy, unicorns, dragons or magic. If those things existed the world would certainly be a hell of a lot more chaotic.

I do believe God will heal our spirits. I also believe God expects us to help each other. Nothing and I mean nothing helps heal a spirit better than kindness and love from your fellow man. NOTHING!!!

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 13, 2014, 08:07:12 AM

Oh the power of sarcasm to make one laugh. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

This comment is irrelevant. No disrespect intended eh!.

Just another reason why I think atheism fuels arrogance. ;)

There is a certain condescending tone that almost every atheist I talk to has. I am a theist; not a child. If I want to teach someone something I presuppose they can learn it. I relay that information in a fun, patient and relaxed way. This method has always served me well, always.

I think religion creates arrogance too; i.e. The Arion Nation/KKK. I think there's not a preacher/pastor out there that is NOT arrogant.

They think they can answer questions for God. To me that's the epitome of arrogance. To live in a Christian family, to me, means mother and father is almost God to their children. This is child abuse according to Pia Melody in her book Codependent No More. Yelp don't think people should talk to their kids about gods until they are 13/14 years old. Even then I would say to my child that is something you must discover on your own, love you.

Okay, enough rambling already. :P

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Defiance on May 13, 2014, 10:55:10 AM

I'm not sure but I have this hypothesis that God was created in the Big Bang.

How do you plan on carrying out this hypothesis?

And how does it make sense that a random-seeming explosion created an infinitely complex being?

First, I know from experience that when things are condensed it makes things stronger. I think this happened because matter was so dense while brewing up the Big Bang.

Second, It's a falsifiable claim.

I'm putting the idea out there. That's about all I can do right now. I have shared it here to get feedback. There is a thread in the shelter about it. Xyzzy sure helped. Smart guy.

I have said here many times I believe in a natural God. I think all things must adhere to the laws of NATURE. I don't believe in supernatural things, santa, EBunny, TFairy, unicorns, dragons or magic. If those things existed the world would certainly be a hell of a lot more chaotic.

I do believe God will heal our spirits. I also believe God expects us to help each other. Nothing and I mean nothing helps heal a spirit better than kindness and love from your fellow man. NOTHING!!!

So if it is a natural god, and exists in space and time, what are it's physical properties?

If something exists within time and space, it has location and timeframe.

I'm not sure but I have this hypothesis that God was created in the Big Bang.

Junebug,Please believe me when I say I do not mean to offend you with this post. It will be difficult.

WTF!!!Junebug, you have rolling around that head of yours the most ridiculous assortment of beliefs I have ever come across. For the life of me I cannot begin to imagine the disjointed web of thought [and I call it thought merely for convenience sake] that leads you to these inane assertions. To me what is even more amazing is the sufficient boldness you must have to post these beliefs, EVEN ANONYMOUSLY, where any thinking person might read them.

Again my aim is not to offend, but let me also be clear. It is not the beliefs themselves, their lack of of foundation or even their apparent imperviousness to argument that gets to me. No. Its the the absolute zero (0) logical correlation they seem to have with one another. The absense even of any apparent ATTEMPT to resolve them.

I am a theist. I am familiar with the arguments of atheism. I don't agree with most of them. It is the way I think but it is also my choice.I believe in a sovereign power over this universe. I believe in mans eternal relation to this sovereign power. But most importantly, I see the signature and identity of this power in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Junebug, you literarily make me ashamed of everything I believe.Your so evidently irrational convictions bring more doubt that the most militant atheistic attacks on my faith. With any argument you can strain to find a counterargument. But I have no response for the portrait of faith you create each time you share your views on this site.

Its not that you make me think atheism is true, its that you damage my capacity to believe anything whatsoever. You feed a very dangerous nihilism that I have been prone to my entire life. You do this not by beautifying despair but by disgracing its counterpart. And that is how my hope feels every time I have to read something you have written, disgraced. Every time I hear you speak about god it's as if I were watching my own mother being stripped naked in a market square.

I suggest maybe you read some books on thought, that you practice skepticism or take a course in philosophy. Most importantly I most strongly suggest that you no longer just post whatever abstraction of thought you've cultured in your mind. So far I do not know that they have benefited anyone, quite the opposite in fact.

I am not directly offended by any of your posts. You've already said that you do not intend to force anyone into your beliefs. Your wish is merely to be understood. I ask that you receive this post in much the same way.For you god's love is a wonderful, personal and needed experience. You wish to share this wonderful experience with as many people as possible. It's a noble mission. However, if your intent is truly to bring light into the lives of others, then you must pay very close attention to the responses your getting. Otherwise you may inadvertently do more damage than repair.

I am just one example. Your words have brought darkness on my soul. In many ways this post isn't an insult or an advise, its a plea for mercy.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: epidemic on May 13, 2014, 02:01:19 PM

I have said here many times I believe in a natural God. I think all things must adhere to the laws of NATURE. I don't believe in supernatural things, santa, EBunny, TFairy, unicorns, dragons or magic. If those things existed the world would certainly be a hell of a lot more chaotic.

I do believe God will heal our spirits. I also believe God expects us to help each other. Nothing and I mean nothing helps heal a spirit better than kindness and love from your fellow man. NOTHING!!!

In your example of god being created by the big bang, then random chaos was able to create the ultimate order in your god.

Why would it not be possible that the laws of physics are as they are because that is how they are because of nature?

Perhaps our universe is not all that well ordered. We only perceive it as ordered because we live in it with the laws we have been dealt. Perhaps there are far more ordered univeses.

Picture you live in a house with a messy family you take laundry strewn around the house and drop it off by the laundry and you think man my house is neat now. Then you visit your aunt who is not quite as messy and you think to yourself... Wow she is so organized and neat, she puts her laundry in a basket rather than strewn around the whole house or in a pile. Now you visit your grandmother house and she orgainzes here clothes by fabric type, color special washing considerations and every tuesday like clockwork she does her laundry.

Are the laws of physics the product of a superbeing created by a universe with out physics?

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 13, 2014, 02:39:16 PM

I have never seen God. I do not know the physical properties. I do not know your's either but you are there. For you I could fly, drive, or take a train and meet you. For God it's not that simple.

I think that is different for every individual. For me it has been an inward journey. One I take with my spirit. That's how I detect God. I will have to say also through my behavior. If I say God lives in me and I'm cruel then you have found a cruel God. If I say I believe in God and I behave kind then you have seen a kind God. Why is this? I think it's because we do not know what God is. So then it comes down to individual perceptions.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 13, 2014, 02:49:16 PM

I'm not sure but I have this hypothesis that God was created in the Big Bang.

Junebug,Please believe me when I say I do not mean to offend you with this post. It will be difficult.

WTF!!!Junebug, you have rolling around that head of yours the most ridiculous assortment of beliefs I have ever come across. For the life of me I cannot begin to imagine the disjointed web of thought [and I call it thought merely for convenience sake] that leads you to these inane assertions. To me what is even more amazing is the sufficient boldness you must have to post these beliefs, EVEN ANONYMOUSLY, where any thinking person might read them.

Again my aim is not to offend, but let me also be clear. It is not the beliefs themselves, their lack of of foundation or even their apparent imperviousness to argument that gets to me. No. Its the the absolute zero (0) logical correlation they seem to have with one another. The absense even of any apparent ATTEMPT to resolve them.

I am a theist. I am familiar with the arguments of atheism. I don't agree with most of them. It is the way I think but it is also my choice.I believe in a sovereign power over this universe. I believe in mans eternal relation to this sovereign power. But most importantly, I see the signature and identity of this power in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Junebug, you literarily make me ashamed of everything I believe.Your so evidently irrational convictions bring more doubt that the most militant atheistic attacks on my faith. With any argument you can strain to find a counterargument. But I have no response for the portrait of faith you create each time you share your views on this site.

Its not that you make me think atheism is true, its that you damage my capacity to believe anything whatsoever. You feed a very dangerous nihilism that I have been prone to my entire life. You do this not by beautifying despair but by disgracing its counterpart. And that is how my hope feels every time I have to read something you have written, disgraced. Every time I hear you speak about god it's as if I were watching my own mother being stripped naked in a market square.

I suggest maybe you read some books on thought, that you practice skepticism or take a course in philosophy. Most importantly I most strongly suggest that you no longer just post whatever abstraction of thought you've cultured in your mind. So far I do not know that they have benefited anyone, quite the opposite in fact.

I am not directly offended by any of your posts. You've already said that you do not intend to force anyone into your beliefs. Your wish is merely to be understood. I ask that you receive this post in much the same way.For you god's love is a wonderful, personal and needed experience. You wish to share this wonderful experience with as many people as possible. It's a noble mission. However, if your intent is truly to bring light into the lives of others, then you must pay very close attention to the responses your getting. Otherwise you may inadvertently do more damage than repair.

I am just one example. Your words have brought darkness on my soul. In many ways this post isn't an insult or an advise, its a plea for mercy.

I don't want to hurt you.

I have a question or two. Why do you read my posts if they bother you so much? How long have you been reading here?

In your example of god being created by the big bang, then random chaos was able to create the ultimate order in your god.

Why would it not be possible that the laws of physics are as they are because that is how they are because of nature?

Perhaps our universe is not all that well ordered. We only perceive it as ordered because we live in it with the laws we have been dealt. Perhaps there are far more ordered univeses.

Picture you live in a house with a messy family you take laundry strewn around the house and drop it off by the laundry and you think man my house is neat now. Then you visit your aunt who is not quite as messy and you think to yourself... Wow she is so organized and neat, she puts her laundry in a basket rather than strewn around the whole house or in a pile. Now you visit your grandmother house and she orgainzes here clothes by fabric type, color special washing considerations and every tuesday like clockwork she does her laundry.

Are the laws of physics the product of a superbeing created by a universe with out physics?

I did not say that it's not possible. I don't know why you asked me that. :?

I do not perceive the universe as well ordered. Not at all.

I'm sorry epidemic I missed the moral to that story. :D

No I don't think so.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Defiance on May 13, 2014, 03:40:31 PM

So a being that by definition must exist in space...is unable to be empirically detected?

I think you might have a look at what the properties of existence are.

Your god shows no signs, none provable, he doesn't live next to me, none provable, and he doesn't have a hand in anything, none provable.

If he appears so withdrawn, how do you distinguish it from being non existent?

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Star Stuff on May 13, 2014, 03:46:55 PM

So a being that by definition must exist in space...is unable to be empirically detected?

I think you might have a look at what the properties of existence are.

Your god shows no signs, none provable, he doesn't live next to me, none provable, and he doesn't have a hand in anything, none provable.

If he appears so withdrawn, how do you distinguish it from being non existent?

I never said must. I said I couldn't do it. Maybe someone else can. You are right though it has never been to done to my knowledge.

Except I do get comfort from God. You are right about it being provable. That's why nobody should be upset with an atheist.

I guess from the comfort I have received when I have asked.

Junebug, you cannot prove god exists. However, you claim to be aware, even sure of his existence because of the much needed comfort and love that he has given you throughout your life. True/False

Let me ask you this. Even if everyone has their own subjective view of god depending on who they are. Even if a person had lived a bad life and done terrible things in the past. Even if that person didn't fully understand who god was or what he was like. If that person truly believed in his heart that god was loving and forgiving and that person cried out to god while they were suffering or in pain, wouldn't god also comfort that person. Would he show that person love the way he has shown you love and comforted you on so many occasions?

I really want to know.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Bluecolour on May 14, 2014, 09:37:02 AM

So a being that by definition must exist in space...is unable to be empirically detected?

I think you might have a look at what the properties of existence are.

Your god shows no signs, none provable, he doesn't live next to me, none provable, and he doesn't have a hand in anything, none provable.

If he appears so withdrawn, how do you distinguish it from being non existent?

I never said must. I said I couldn't do it. Maybe someone else can. You are right though it has never been to done to my knowledge.

Except I do get comfort from God. You are right about it being provable. That's why nobody should be upset with an atheist.

I guess from the comfort I have received when I have asked.

Junebug, you cannot prove god exists. However, you claim to be aware, even sure of his existence because of the much needed comfort and love that he has given you throughout your life. True/False

Let me ask you this. Even if everyone has their own subjective view of god depending on who they are. Even if a person had lived a bad life and done terrible things in the past. Even if that person didn't fully understand who god was or what he was like. If that person truly believed in his heart that god was loving and forgiving and that person cried out to god while they were suffering or in pain, wouldn't god also comfort that person. Would he show that person love the way he has shown you love and comforted you on so many occasions?

I really want to know.

Yes I believe God would and that's got a lot to do with why I see no need for religion, bibles or Korans. Religion is "conditional" love. That's why I think people get so confused and lose faith, they can not live up to the expectations. I think they get confused when God does not help the physical body with God not caring. I never once prayed for god/gods to heal my cancer. I asked for comfort. I didn't even get down on my knees.

I will go so far to say that you don't even need to believe to get comfort if you ask. Again not the physical; the spirit. I also think that for those who can not ask it is given abundantly, I do hope so.

I would like to say that my beliefs are not spur of the moment thoughts. They are part of a lifelong journey. ;)

Sorry it took so long I was gardening.

Yes it is true. About forgot to answer.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 14, 2014, 10:59:09 AM

I have a question or two. Why do you read my posts if they bother you so much? How long have you been reading here?

I read your posts for the same reason I read most things: I am seeking for knowledge, for the truth and for pleasurable distractions.

I wouldn't read my posts for that. :o I am flattered though. ;)

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Bluecolour on May 14, 2014, 01:02:50 PM

Junebug here's the problem. If god exists and he is willing and able to give comfort to those in need regardless of what they believe. If according to you we can be sure of receiving comfort from him, then why is it that even when there are so many people around the world praying for this spiritual/emotional comfort, so many of them are left empty. Think of all the despair there is in this world, all the grief. Count all the cases of suicide, self mutilations, all the people who have gone insane under the pressure. If you don't believe god will heal amputees, why doesn't he at least comfort them. And if he does comfort some, then why not the others.

This quote comes from C.S Lewis. His wife had just died and he had gone to god looking for comfort.

Quote

..where is God? This is one of the most disquieting symptoms. When you are happy, so happy that you have no sense of needing Him, so happy that you are tempted to feel His claims upon you as an interruption, if you remember yourself and turn to Him with gratitude and praise, you will be—or so it feels—welcomed with open arms. But go to Him when your need is desperate, when all other help is vain, and what do you find? A door slammed in your face, and a sound of bolting and double bolting on the inside. After that, silence. You may as well turn away. The longer you wait, the more emphatic the silence will become. There are no lights in the windows. It might be an empty house. Was it ever inhabited? It seemed so once. And that seeming was as strong as this. What can this mean? Why is He so present a commander in our time of prosperity and so very absent a help in time of trouble?

Junebug, I ask on behalf of all those who are continually praying to god for comfort yet remain empty.Why does he answer others and not us? Why would he show you love and deny us?Can he still hear us?Do we need to pray harder?Have we done something wrong?Is it possible that god just doesn't love everybody the way he loves you?

You see Junebug, the people who wrote the bible, the Koran and the other holy books did so because they felt abandoned by god. They became afraid they had done something wrong and tried to make up for it. Many of the people who follow these religions feel the same way.

Junebug, since we know that god loves you, can you please pray to him for us? Pray to him and ask him why he let's us feel that we are not worthy of his love.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 14, 2014, 10:01:01 PM

You see Junebug, the people who wrote the bible, the Koran and the other holy books did so because they felt abandoned by god. They became afraid they had done something wrong and tried to make up for it. Many of the people who follow these religions feel the same way.

No I don't see that. I see people that witnessed God parting seas, freeing slaves, plaguing Egypt and destroying things with floods, fire and brimstone. I don't think book writing brings God around. I just don't. The bible was written out of fear, ego and greed. It would be hard to persuade me otherwise. I've read it.

Junebug, since we know that god loves you, can you please pray to him for us? Pray to him and ask him why he let's us feel that we are not worthy of his love.

I don't "know" that. I believe it. There is a big difference. I think the key here is how I perceive God. I think that's why you think some are denied while others are not. So many prayers are wasted on stupid shit like football games or wealth.

I don't think God saves us from suffering because WE can end it. We together as a species can stop the suffering. Whatever it takes to get people on board with that is what I'm willing to do.

God does not allow you to feel this way, you do, with your perception of God.

That's my POV. I hope it lightens up your soul. ;)

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Anfauglir on May 15, 2014, 04:25:21 AM

I'm not sure but I have this hypothesis that God was created in the Big Bang......It's a falsifiable claim.

In what way?

I can not do it alone. :P

I know it's a vague answer but I can't. I have limited resources.

If you mean "I know how it could be falsified, but I personally do not have the ability/equipment to do so", then fine - but you will need to explain exactly what criteria WOULD falsify the claim.

But if you mean "I do not know how it can be falsified", then - with respect - you cannot baldy state it is a falsifiable claim.

Thanks for the challenge Anfauglir.

You would have to recreate the Big Bang.

Then your claim is NOT falsifiable. Not a major problem, I was hoping it would be, but you shouldn't describe it as such if it isn't.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Bluecolour on May 15, 2014, 06:44:04 AM

Junebug, correct me if I'm wrong.

You say when you pray to god for comfort (not for miracles) but specifically for a spiritual/emotional comfort you receive it.

Then I asked why god doesn't seem to answer everyone that asks for this spiritual/emotional comfort (not for miracles or healings) but specifically and only for that spiritual/emotional comfort.

You say that the way that I and others perceive god might be the problem. Our wrong perception of god is what makes us feel like he has abandoned us. He hasn't.But you have a different perception of god than we do. You don't 'know' that god loves you, you 'believe' that he loves you. And this trust in gods love allows you to receive comfort (spiritual/emotive only) from him.

Am I right in understanding you so far.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 15, 2014, 09:17:48 AM

You say when you pray to god for comfort (not for miracles) but specifically for a spiritual/emotional comfort you receive it.

Then I asked why god doesn't seem to answer everyone that asks for this spiritual/emotional comfort (not for miracles or healings) but specifically and only for that spiritual/emotional comfort.

You say that the way that I and others perceive god might be the problem. Our wrong perception of god is what makes us feel like he has abandoned us. He hasn't.But you have a different perception of god than we do. You don't 'know' that god loves you, you 'believe' that he loves you. And this trust in gods love allows you to receive comfort (spiritual/emotive only) from him.

Am I right in understanding you so far.

Yes Blue I honestly believe it is the difference in our perceptions. That's why I am so against religions. I think they are terrible perceptions of God.

I perceive the only kind of God that I can look up to and respect. I don't know if God is a tangible being but I do know that God is a useful concept if perceived in the right way.

I wasn't sure if by comfort you meant physical comfort or spiritual comfort. I have never received physical comfort from God.

From my heart to yours,

JB

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 15, 2014, 09:29:00 AM

I'm not sure but I have this hypothesis that God was created in the Big Bang......It's a falsifiable claim.

In what way?

I can not do it alone. :P

I know it's a vague answer but I can't. I have limited resources.

If you mean "I know how it could be falsified, but I personally do not have the ability/equipment to do so", then fine - but you will need to explain exactly what criteria WOULD falsify the claim.

But if you mean "I do not know how it can be falsified", then - with respect - you cannot baldy state it is a falsifiable claim.

Thanks for the challenge Anfauglir.

You would have to recreate the Big Bang.

Then your claim is NOT falsifiable. Not a major problem, I was hoping it would be, but you shouldn't describe it as such if it isn't.

Then I don't understand the definition of falsifiable. I just read it again and I feel the term still fits. Please explain more why it can not be falsifiable to this naive hillbilly. Thanks.

I think it is falsifiable in principle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FalsifiabilityFor example, by the problem of induction, no number of confirming observations can verify a universal generalization, such as All swans are white, yet it is logically possible to falsify it by observing a single black swan. Thus, the term falsifiability is sometimes synonymous to testability. Some statements, such as It will be raining here in one million years, are falsifiable in principle, but not in practice.[2]

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Bluecolour on May 15, 2014, 10:57:53 AM

Thank you JB I think I'm really starting to understand what you're saying.

It's because other people have wrong perceptions of god (that is they believe the wrong things about him) that is why they don't receive comfort from him when they pray. If I believe the right things about god then I will be able to truly admire him and receive his love and his comfort.

So if I have a biblical perception of god, that is if I believe in the god of Moses, Abraham, Mohammad or any of the worlds religions it will bring me only darkness. I need to have the right perception of god. The one that you have. Then I will have light, peace and comfort.

I'm sorry to say this but a lot of the things I believe about god are based on the christian religion. If it's not to much to ask, could you write me a list of the things I need to believe so that I can more properly receive gods love and comfort.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 15, 2014, 11:09:03 AM

Thank you JB I think I'm really starting to understand what you're saying.

It's because other people have wrong perceptions of god (that is they believe the wrong things about him) that is why they don't receive comfort from him when they pray. If I believe the right things about god then I will be able to truly admire him and receive his love and his comfort.

So if I have a biblical perception of god, that is if I believe in the god of Moses, Abraham, Mohammad or any of the worlds religions it will bring me only darkness. I need to have the right perception of god. The one that you have. Then I will have light, peace and comfort.

I'm sorry to say this but a lot of the things I believe about god are based on the christian religion. If it's not to much to ask, could you write me a list of the things I need to believe so that I can more properly receive gods love and comfort.

I did not receive a list Blue. I wish it was that easy.

This has helped me more than anything. I use my own love to measure God's believing all the while that God's love is much much more beautiful, passionate, powerful, forgiving and unconditional than mine.

Like I said before remember that serenity prayer. It really helps me through times of sorrow.

I hope this helps.

All my love,

JB

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Bluecolour on May 15, 2014, 11:15:47 AM

What does your love have to do with god? :?

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 15, 2014, 11:46:56 AM

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Bluecolour on May 15, 2014, 12:11:10 PM

Yes. What I mean is this.

If you can use your love to measure gods love, then you can use your joy to measure gods joy and you can use your kindness to measure gods kindness.Also you can use your anger to measure gods anger, your hate to measure gods hate, and your pride to measure gods pride.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 15, 2014, 12:57:28 PM

If you can use your love to measure gods love, then you can use your joy to measure gods joy and you can use your kindness to measure gods kindness.Also you can use your anger to measure gods anger, your hate to measure gods hate, and your pride to measure gods pride.

Exactly!

Sorry it took so long. My son had to use the computer.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 15, 2014, 01:24:48 PM

Let me explain how I come up with this perception.

I don't think there is irrefutable evidence that God exists.

Therefore how you define god is up to you. It is a reflection of you.

I am not saying you are God. I am saying that in the silence and absence of sight it is you that defines God. That's my POV.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Bluecolour on May 15, 2014, 02:21:50 PM

So god is infinitely and unconditionally loving.But at the same time he is infinitely and unconditionally hateful.

So god loves each and everyone of us more than we can imagine.But at the same time he hates each and every one of us beyond our comprehension.

He infinitely has all feelings towards us.Meaning he is ultimately indifferent.

He doesn't love us by choice.He is mindless.A cosmic mirror reflecting back only what we throw at him.We can see him, but he is blind. He cannot see us.(We have our perceptions of him but he has no opinion on us)

Meaning he is ethical neutral. He has not spoken on human matters. He has no commands. He does not judge or seek justice. He will neither punish nor save. Make or destroy. Move or be moved.

He is no power at all.We look at him and see our own faces reflected back at us again and again, back and forth infinitely.We assume he is greater than us. But we are not made in his image, he is made in ours.The shadow of our radiance. The ripples of our existential struggle.The key difference between us and god is that we are alive.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 15, 2014, 02:24:31 PM

^^way off^^way off^^way off^^

I specifically said You are NOT God. Specifically.

I am saying your perception of God defines you not God. I don't believe there is a definition of god.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Bluecolour on May 15, 2014, 03:05:43 PM

I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about a God that actually existed.

If your perception of god determines you. Then who determines your perception of god?

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Star Stuff on May 15, 2014, 03:08:10 PM

Back to the beginning of this thread, it just occurred to me; what are the first two words of "the Lord's prayer"?

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Anfauglir on May 16, 2014, 03:34:22 AM

Then your claim is NOT falsifiable. Not a major problem, I was hoping it would be, but you shouldn't describe it as such if it isn't.

Then I don't understand the definition of falsifiable. I just read it again and I feel the term still fits. Please explain more why it can not be falsifiable to this naive hillbilly. Thanks.

I think it is falsifiable in principle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FalsifiabilityFor example, by the problem of induction, no number of confirming observations can verify a universal generalization, such as All swans are white, yet it is logically possible to falsify it by observing a single black swan. Thus, the term falsifiability is sometimes synonymous to testability. Some statements, such as It will be raining here in one million years, are falsifiable in principle, but not in practice.[2]

And do you honestly think that that is in any way useful? In principle, almost every statement we could care to make COULD be falsified - indeed, I struggle to think of a statement that could NOT be deemed as "potentially falsifiable".

Example: "your god is dead. I killed him in my kitchen. Any comfort or messages you think you are getting from him in future are merely echoes resounding back and forth through time." Exactly as falsifiable as your "god was created in the Big Bang".....but do we gain anything from calling it "falsifiable"? Not really.

As the wiki article notes, there are two definitions of falsifiable, as Popper notes. The "potentially fasifiable" (which covers practically everything, and thus has little or no use), and the "testably falsifiable" (or "falsifiable in practice"), which IS useful. Basically, if it is possible to define a way in which a proposition can be falsified using current methods or technology, then it is testably falsifiable - and thus both a useful and honest description to use with a proposition or hypothesis.

To refer all this back to your original proposition: when someone puts a hypothesis out there, and proclaims "this is falsifiable!", the usual supposition is that there is a practical way of actually falsifying it. In a way, equivalent to the prize fighter shouting "ten bucks to the man who can last three minutes with me" - somewhere between a challenge to those who might disagree, and a promise that there is at least a chance that the claim could be disproved (and that the hypothesis would be altered as a result).

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 16, 2014, 05:45:25 AM

I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about a God that actually existed.

If your perception of god determines you. Then who determines your perception of god?

You are still not getting it. Maybe if you put your contempt for me aside you would understand my POV. I'm not saying God doesn't exist. I'm saying if God exists God is silent and absent from sight. Whatever you think God is, is on you.

I determine my perceptions from my environment. I'm not religious. I detest religion. I learned this lesson because I was rejected from Christianity and was forced to either not believe or change my perception. I can't NOT be gay. Maybe God did help by being absent from my sight and silent. I think this is why many Christians become atheist.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 16, 2014, 05:52:31 AM

Back to the beginning of this thread, it just occurred to me; what are the first two words of "the Lord's prayer"?

Our Father...

Good point Star Stuff. Except it doesn't apply to me. I don't see the big deal in calling God mother or father.

I will say this. I can understand why you have this POV. I just don't think that's all there is to it; belief that is.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 06:01:29 AM

JB you often state that in some way people are being arrogant or some other victimising you. an appesl to emotion? an evasion to control the line of questioning. nobody dislikes you so can you please the accusations pertaining to your xtian persecution complex out of it for the sake of the flow of the discussion ...please.

further you talk about god as a function of perception, so god has no independent existence outside of individual perception?

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 16, 2014, 06:31:21 AM

JB you often state that in some way people are being arrogant or some other victimising you. an appesl to emotion? an evasion to control the line of questioning. nobody dislikes you so can you please the accusations pertaining to your xtian persecution complex out of it for the sake of the flow of the discussion ...please.

further you talk about god as a function of perception, so god has no independent existence outside of individual perception?

Being arrogant doesn't victimize me. It hurts the arrogant one.

I have never avoided questions eh!. I only bring it up because of the posit claim here at WWGHA that god is not necessary for moral behavior. I don't think arrogance is moral.

I believe God exists outside of perception.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 06:40:26 AM

God is necessary for moral behaviour??

so god is an objective object/being/thing??

arrogance is immoral?

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 16, 2014, 06:49:30 AM

Then your claim is NOT falsifiable. Not a major problem, I was hoping it would be, but you shouldn't describe it as such if it isn't.

Then I don't understand the definition of falsifiable. I just read it again and I feel the term still fits. Please explain more why it can not be falsifiable to this naive hillbilly. Thanks.

I think it is falsifiable in principle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FalsifiabilityFor example, by the problem of induction, no number of confirming observations can verify a universal generalization, such as All swans are white, yet it is logically possible to falsify it by observing a single black swan. Thus, the term falsifiability is sometimes synonymous to testability. Some statements, such as It will be raining here in one million years, are falsifiable in principle, but not in practice.[2]

And do you honestly think that that is in any way useful? In principle, almost every statement we could care to make COULD be falsified - indeed, I struggle to think of a statement that could NOT be deemed as "potentially falsifiable".

Example: "your god is dead. I killed him in my kitchen. Any comfort or messages you think you are getting from him in future are merely echoes resounding back and forth through time." Exactly as falsifiable as your "god was created in the Big Bang".....but do we gain anything from calling it "falsifiable"? Not really.

As the wiki article notes, there are two definitions of falsifiable, as Popper notes. The "potentially fasifiable" (which covers practically everything, and thus has little or no use), and the "testably falsifiable" (or "falsifiable in practice"), which IS useful. Basically, if it is possible to define a way in which a proposition can be falsified using current methods or technology, then it is testably falsifiable - and thus both a useful and honest description to use with a proposition or hypothesis.

To refer all this back to your original proposition: when someone puts a hypothesis out there, and proclaims "this is falsifiable!", the usual supposition is that there is a practical way of actually falsifying it. In a way, equivalent to the prize fighter shouting "ten bucks to the man who can last three minutes with me" - somewhere between a challenge to those who might disagree, and a promise that there is at least a chance that the claim could be disproved (and that the hypothesis would be altered as a result).

Okay if that's so then how do you falsify that claim; god is dead, died in my kitchen, any comfort or messages you are getting from the future are merely resounding back and forth through time.

Wouldn't you first have to prove God exists?

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 16, 2014, 07:01:10 AM

You tell me. It seems even the nicest atheist is arrogant,even the ones who can't spell. I can be arrogant but I work on it because it always makes me feel guilty. I know I'm doing something wrong. So yes I believe it is amoral.

I believe God is objective, yes I do. I do not know about being a biological being, maybe, maybe not.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Anfauglir on May 16, 2014, 07:04:49 AM

To refer all this back to your original proposition: when someone puts a hypothesis out there, and proclaims "this is falsifiable!", the usual supposition is that there is a practical way of actually falsifying it. In a way, equivalent to the prize fighter shouting "ten bucks to the man who can last three minutes with me" - somewhere between a challenge to those who might disagree, and a promise that there is at least a chance that the claim could be disproved (and that the hypothesis would be altered as a result).

Okay if that's so then how do you falsify that claim; god is dead, died in my kitchen, any comfort or messages you are getting from the future are merely resounding back and forth through time.

Wouldn't you first have to prove God exists?

Nope. All you need to do to falsify my claim is recreate the exact circumstances that existed in my kitchen on that date, and you will see me kill your god (or not). Its no more, nor less, falsifiable that saying "god was created in the Big Bang - you'll have to replicate the Big Bang to falsify my claim".

Entirely falsifiable in principle. Just an utterly, utterly pointless claim to make, since there is no way in practice to prove what is in principle , falsifiable.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 07:12:06 AM

What comparative level would you equate arrogance to on the immoral scale??

did i read you right, god is necessary for their to be morals??

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 16, 2014, 07:15:13 AM

To refer all this back to your original proposition: when someone puts a hypothesis out there, and proclaims "this is falsifiable!", the usual supposition is that there is a practical way of actually falsifying it. In a way, equivalent to the prize fighter shouting "ten bucks to the man who can last three minutes with me" - somewhere between a challenge to those who might disagree, and a promise that there is at least a chance that the claim could be disproved (and that the hypothesis would be altered as a result).

Okay if that's so then how do you falsify that claim; god is dead, died in my kitchen, any comfort or messages you are getting from the future are merely resounding back and forth through time.

Wouldn't you first have to prove God exists?

Nope. All you need to do to falsify my claim is recreate the exact circumstances that existed in my kitchen on that date, and you will see me kill your god (or not). Its no more, nor less, falsifiable that saying "god was created in the Big Bang - you'll have to replicate the Big Bang to falsify my claim".

Entirely falsifiable in principle. Just an utterly, utterly pointless claim to make, since there is no way in practice to prove what is in principle , falsifiable.

To do that you would have to have God there. Good luck on that one. You would have to show that God is mortal. There is to me no similarities in our statements.

How would it be possible for you to kill God in your kitchen?

I have logic on my side here. I have physical evidence of what happens when things are condensed. That is the logic behind the hypothesis.

There is no logic to your statement.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 16, 2014, 07:19:48 AM

All you need to do to falsify my claim is recreate the exact circumstances that existed in my kitchen on that date, and you will see me kill your god (or not). Its no more, nor less, falsifiable that saying "god was created in the Big Bang - you'll have to replicate the Big Bang to falsify my claim".

Entirely falsifiable in principle. Just an utterly, utterly pointless claim to make, since there is no way in practice to prove what is in principle , falsifiable.

To do that you would have to have God there. Good luck on that one. You would have to show that God is mortal. There is to me no similarities in our statements.

So to be clear: are you stating that my assertion is NOT potentially falsifiable?

You said that your god was created in the Big Bang. You said that this was falsifiable, because "all" we needed to do was recreate the Big Bang. What has logic got to do with any of that?

Likewise, I said that I killed your god in my kitchen. I said it is fasifiable, because "all" you need to do was create those circumstances. What has logic got to do with any of that?

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 08:01:58 AM

Yeah just go and create the big bang and start another universe.... easy, no prob, simple as that. Is it possible to not have a disco era this time, that shit was wack. oh and no fuking mosquitoes this time...pesky little fukers, carry malaria. too.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: epidemic on May 16, 2014, 08:03:19 AM

All you need to do to falsify my claim is recreate the exact circumstances that existed in my kitchen on that date, and you will see me kill your god (or not). Its no more, nor less, falsifiable that saying "god was created in the Big Bang - you'll have to replicate the Big Bang to falsify my claim".

Entirely falsifiable in principle. Just an utterly, utterly pointless claim to make, since there is no way in practice to prove what is in principle , falsifiable.

To do that you would have to have God there. Good luck on that one. You would have to show that God is mortal. There is to me no similarities in our statements.

So to be clear: are you stating that my assertion is NOT potentially falsifiable?

Yeah just go and create the big bang and start another universe.... easy, no prob, simple as that.

Still not falsifiable because the god in this new universe will still be invisible.

I can't see you either. You're not invisible. ;)

Well I respond to you in a way that everyone can see.

If we both had the time and inclination we could arrange a meeting.

I could send you pictures, videos, and a list of people who presently know me.

God is invisible and undetectable, I can not arrange a meeting, and I can only ask people who have never met the guy what they think of him because he is undetectable to them as well except for feelings they attribute to him. I think those feelings are manifestations of the mind body not a measure of his existence. I cite as my proof that every religion from aztec to egypt, from islam to Christianity,from hindi to spiritualist, all claim to have feelings where god made his presense known through subtle cues that could be anything from the ID, caffiene or a bad piece of fish.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 08:32:13 AM

So morals can't exist without god, genocide is highest on the scale of immorality and god commits genocide therefore god is the most immoral being that exists according to you?

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 08:52:43 AM

JB have you come to the realisation that by your own admission and own standards the god you worship is the most evil immoral thing you yourself. can think of.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: epidemic on May 16, 2014, 09:07:14 AM

JB have you come to the realisation that by your own admission and own standards the god you worship is the most evil immoral thing you yourself. can think of.

Not to be too forward, but I think she has answered that. She does not attribute the bible to god. She thinks the old testament is false and I think she does believe the NT is wrong as well. She is spiritual, where she chooses to believe that god is an entity who helps people mostly on a psychological basis. Giving them the strength to overcome an obstacle or deal with a bad situation.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 09:14:44 AM

^ oh, ok then...my bad.

why the fuk she go around tellin everyone she a xtian..... talk about a waste of time.

JB, I'm done with you. you misled me.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Bluecolour on May 16, 2014, 11:13:13 AM

I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about a God that actually existed.

If your perception of god determines you. Then who determines your perception of god?

You are still not getting it. Maybe if you put your contempt for me aside you would understand my POV. I'm not saying God doesn't exist. I'm saying if God exists God is silent and absent from sight. Whatever you think God is, is on you.

I determine my perceptions from my environment. I'm not religious. I detest religion. I learned this lesson because I was rejected from Christianity and was forced to either not believe or change my perception. I can't NOT be gay. Maybe God did help by being absent from my sight and silent. I think this is why many Christians become atheist.

Contempt?

What makes you think I don't understand your point of view?

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 16, 2014, 01:57:50 PM

I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about a God that actually existed.

If your perception of god determines you. Then who determines your perception of god?

You are still not getting it. Maybe if you put your contempt for me aside you would understand my POV. I'm not saying God doesn't exist. I'm saying if God exists God is silent and absent from sight. Whatever you think God is, is on you.

I determine my perceptions from my environment. I'm not religious. I detest religion. I learned this lesson because I was rejected from Christianity and was forced to either not believe or change my perception. I can't NOT be gay. Maybe God did help by being absent from my sight and silent. I think this is why many Christians become atheist.

Contempt?

What makes you think I don't understand your point of view?

Because you have yet to say OH I get it. Not that I am right just that you understand my logic. Because your interpretation of my post was way off.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Defiance on May 16, 2014, 02:58:36 PM

So then, is God a perception only (meaning real to only you), or is he really a real thing in Space Time?

If you pick the latter, evidence, please.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: eh! on May 16, 2014, 03:26:06 PM

^ keep up JB's god is an object real non-biological entity that she perceives on a personal only level.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 17, 2014, 05:21:29 AM

So then, is God a perception only (meaning real to only you), or is he really a real thing in Space Time?

If you pick the latter, evidence, please.

I think we will all find out one day. I'm not sure what God is. I have never met God personally. Nobody has I don't think.

That's no different than me asking you what happened before the big bang. Or to demonstrate a human evolving from an ape. You have not witnessed these events but you believe them because it makes sense to you. It makes sense to me there was intelligence involved. Why?

Because life is so complex. I have not had an answer that was good enough to reject belief. The only explanation the big bang gives us is LUCK.

See my biggest problem with evolution w/o God is if we have beings evolving there ain't no telling what we might become. It would be real helpful if we could evolve immunity from hunger to get our fuel directly from the sun and atmosphere. We could become Xmen!!! :laugh:

I sure hope you get my point. I'm not just being stubborn. I have always been told there is no stupid questions. ;)

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: eh! on May 17, 2014, 05:55:54 AM

Big bang does not imply luck. given a long enough time anything that can happen will happen....including big bangs.

"No telling what we might become... " i doubt we will be completely organic structures .

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 17, 2014, 06:24:58 AM

Big bang does not imply luck. given a long enough time anything that can happen will happen....including big bangs.

"No telling what we might become... " i doubt we will be completely organic structures .

If anything can happen God can happen.

That's not what he said. He said "anything that can happen will happen". Gods are impossible.

That is what he said. You added a sentence. ;) You do not know that God/s are impossible. I do not know that they are. I am humble enough to admit it. Shoot sometimes I wonder and doubt the existence of God. Through every doubt it seems I come out more enlightened.

Perhaps when I say God I am saying the mystery of us. That which we do not know. It makes sense to me because theists do argue from ignorance.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Bluecolour on May 17, 2014, 07:39:25 AM

Junebug, I need you to clarify something.

When you say (as you often do) that a persons view on god determines who they are, in what sense do you use the word determine.

Sense 1 would be 'determine' as in: 'your genes determine the colour of your skin.'

Sense 2 as in: 'we determine the composition of stars by the light rays they emit.'

A 3rd sense in which both sense 1 and sense 2 are implied to a varying degree.

Or none of the above.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: One Above All on May 17, 2014, 08:00:50 AM

You do not know that God/s are impossible. I do not know that they are. I am humble enough to admit it.

I have defined a perfect being (the only kind I would call "God" and would worship) as possessing three properties: omniscience, omnipotence, and benevolence. These things are inconsistent with each other and reality. Ergo, gods are impossible.

Perhaps when I say God I am saying the mystery of us. That which we do not know. It makes sense to me because theists do argue from ignorance.

Argumentum ad ignorantiam is not arguing that you don't know. It's arguing that, because we can't disprove something (can't know it doesn't exist), it must be true.Anyway, if that's your definition of a god, I doubt your claim that it "comforted" you.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 17, 2014, 08:04:20 AM

When you say (as you often do) that a persons view on god determines who they are, in what sense do you use the word determine.

Sense 1 would be 'determine' as in: 'your genes determine the colour of your skin.'

Sense 2 as in: 'we determine the composition of stars by the light rays they emit.'

A 3rd sense in which both sense 1 and sense 2 are implied to a varying degree.

Or none of the above.

Try using the words around the word "determine" to "determine" what I mean. :)

Junebug, I consider this a very hostile response a legitimate question.

You claim I am blinded by 'contempt' and complain that I don't understand your view, but I have done nothing but ask questions. I have not insulted you. I have never at any point even argued with you. I was brought up in a religious household and it is difficult for me to immediately relate to some of your ideas, I'm sorry. But all I've done so far is ask questions. I did not demand proof. I did not decry your assertions. I did not even demand to be convinced.Anyone, following this thread will bear me witness that I have not been disrespectful to your views in any way. I might have misunderstood them at certain times, but I did not refute them.If you don't want to answer questions on your belief that's fine and we can discontinue this conversation. But don't accuse me of contempt and besmear the intent of honest straightforward questions.

Without malice,blue.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 17, 2014, 08:53:39 AM

Sorry; I should've clarified. I meant that I can't understand "spiritual, but not religious" because there's no such thing.

You only say that because you don't understand it. You are still saying my perception does not exist.

We are less popular than atheist among Christians. In fact I think we are atheism and religion's most formidable opponent. Some religious here won't even talk to me. They hardly talk to each other. What kind of brotherhood is that?

We are the real Xmen. 8)

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Star Stuff on May 17, 2014, 09:01:03 AM

When you say (as you often do) that a persons view on god determines who they are, in what sense do you use the word determine.

Sense 1 would be 'determine' as in: 'your genes determine the colour of your skin.'

Sense 2 as in: 'we determine the composition of stars by the light rays they emit.'

A 3rd sense in which both sense 1 and sense 2 are implied to a varying degree.

Or none of the above.

Try using the words around the word "determine" to "determine" what I mean. :)

Junebug, I consider this a very hostile response a legitimate question.

You claim I am blinded by 'contempt' and complain that I don't understand your view, but I have done nothing but ask questions. I have not insulted you. I have never at any point even argued with you. I was brought up in a religious household and it is difficult for me to immediately relate to some of your ideas, I'm sorry. But all I've done so far is ask questions. I did not demand proof. I did not decry your assertions. I did not even demand to be convinced.Anyone, following this thread will bear me witness that I have not been disrespectful to your views in any way. I might have misunderstood them at certain times, but I did not refute them.If you don't want to answer questions on your belief that's fine and we can discontinue this conversation. But don't accuse me of contempt and besmear the intent of honest straightforward questions.

Without malice,blue.

Look man I read your post. All that jive about how you know God loves me and answers my prayers. Please pray for me so I can get comfort.Please show me mercy you're stripping my mom. What's my love got to do with it?

I wasn't being hostile. I was being sincere. When I have a hard time comprehending that's what I do and it helps me to comprehend the author's story.

All I could do is repeat myself. How would that help you understand anything?

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 17, 2014, 09:04:26 AM

And this is relevant... why? Bisexuals are less popular than nearly every other sexuality among every group. Too many people who think we should just "pick a side" or that we're just "undecided"/"confused" or that we just want to have sex with whomever we want. Too many people in high school and college who kiss people of the same sex and go "OMG I'M TOTES BI!" or whatever those retards say nowadays.

When you say (as you often do) that a persons view on god determines who they are, in what sense do you use the word determine.

Sense 1 would be 'determine' as in: 'your genes determine the colour of your skin.'

Sense 2 as in: 'we determine the composition of stars by the light rays they emit.'

A 3rd sense in which both sense 1 and sense 2 are implied to a varying degree.

Or none of the above.

Try using the words around the word "determine" to "determine" what I mean. :)

Junebug, I consider this a very hostile response a legitimate question.

You claim I am blinded by 'contempt' and complain that I don't understand your view, but I have done nothing but ask questions. I have not insulted you. I have never at any point even argued with you. I was brought up in a religious household and it is difficult for me to immediately relate to some of your ideas, I'm sorry. But all I've done so far is ask questions. I did not demand proof. I did not decry your assertions. I did not even demand to be convinced.Anyone, following this thread will bear me witness that I have not been disrespectful to your views in any way. I might have misunderstood them at certain times, but I did not refute them.If you don't want to answer questions on your belief that's fine and we can discontinue this conversation. But don't accuse me of contempt and besmear the intent of honest straightforward questions.

Without malice,blue.

Look man I read your post. All that jive about how you know God loves me and answers my prayers. Please pray for me so I can get comfort.Please show me mercy you're stripping my mom. What's my love got to do with it?

I wasn't being hostile. I was being sincere. When I have a hard time comprehending that's what I do and it helps me to comprehend the author's story.

All I could do is repeat myself. How would that help you understand anything?

Fine, you got me.

Initially I did think your views were ridiculous. But what was I supposed to think? I had never heard them before.I'm a Christian. My initial response whenever someone says, 'there is no god' or 'god is only your perception of him' is always going to be 'that's ridiculous.' But when I hear that, I have a choice either to walk away with my smug assessment of that persons POV or stay and have a conversation with that person. Perhaps realize that persons views are not so silly as I thought after all.

Junebug, I think your views are ridiculous. But I think them less ridiculous now than I did when we began this conversation.

Is that so bad. After all Junebug, I'm a Christian. I believe that Jesus is the only begotten son of a god who made the whole world in six days and that very soon he'll be coming back to take me up to heaven to be with him. Can you honestly say that you don't find THAT ridiculous? Isn't that what this site is? A bunch of people all making attempts at meaningful discussion with people whose views and opinions they consider ridiculously inferior to their own.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally never ask a question that I don't need an answer to. It may not seem that way to you. It may seem derisive and mocking (and granted sometimes it is) but if I bother to ask at all it is because I am genuinely trying to understand the view of the person I'm asking.

I'm sorry if you took my posts the wrong way and I honestly think its better if we end this conversation here, but I was truly hoping to go away from this thread with an understanding of your god POV. Not my own opinion, not my own misuderstanding of something you said, but your actual views. Regardless of whether or not I can find it in myself to believe them.

Signing out.Bluecolour.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Star Stuff on May 17, 2014, 10:47:51 AM

So to be clear: are you stating that my assertion is NOT potentially falsifiable?

I need the answer to the question to answer your question.

What is unclear about my question? I've made a statement : I've asked you if you believe that statement is falsifiable. Surely it is a yes or no answer?

Why would I say your statement is falsifiable when it clearly has nothing to do with science. It is not a hypothesis so what is the need.

If I say yes it is, then you have proven yourself mistaken by saying I can't say that about my actual hypothesis. ;)

I think it's silly you wouldn't answer one simple question. :)

I do not think your statement is a hypothesis.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Jesuis on May 18, 2014, 10:44:11 PM

What do you mean when you say "god"?The creator of everything, not separate from it but with it and at the heart of it. Compare it to a molecule of water which is no different than the ocean it was created in except for its individuality. God is the ocean of all consciousness and we are parts of the consciousness.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: eh! on May 19, 2014, 06:15:12 AM

^ oh yeah like we all the pins in the pin cushion of consciousness thing ....right?

I'm down.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Graybeard on May 19, 2014, 06:54:00 AM

The creator of everything, not separate from it but with it and at the heart of it. Compare it to a molecule of water which is no different than the ocean it was created in except for its individuality. God is the ocean of all consciousness and we are parts of the consciousness.

When the battle is lost for the creating deity to have an existence, theists take one of two exits:

1. “God is undetectable because he is outside space and time.”2. “God is everything and in everything and about everything.”

Both are meaningless. (i) No one knows what 1. means and (ii) even if there as any truth in this, a being “outside space and time” could not affect us who are “within space and time.” (iii) it is a bald statement and can be dismissed without evidence.

The second (i) is simply redefining “everything” and is no more sensible than saying “Love is in trees.” -> where’s your logic, where’s any evidence? (ii)Fails on the 'which came first?' test: God who is everything or everything into which god inserted himself? (iii) it is a bald statement and can be dismissed without evidence.

If you say "God came first." the questions arise, "Where was he before and why did He feel it necessary to leave? And how do you know?" If you say "everything existed and God inserted himself into it." Then, "How do you know? and "He is not a creator."

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 19, 2014, 07:20:04 AM

The creator of everything, not separate from it but with it and at the heart of it. Compare it to a molecule of water which is no different than the ocean it was created in except for its individuality. God is the ocean of all consciousness and we are parts of the consciousness.

When the battle is lost for the creating deity to have an existence, theists take one of two exits:

1. “God is undetectable because he is outside space and time.”2. “God is everything and in everything and about everything.”

Both are meaningless. (i) No one knows what 1. means and (ii) even if there as any truth in this, a being “outside space and time” could not affect us who are “within space and time.” (iii) it is a bald statement and can be dismissed without evidence.

The second (i) is simply redefining “everything” and is no more sensible than saying “Love is in trees.” -> where’s your logic, where’s any evidence? (ii)Fails on the 'which came first?' test: God who is everything or everything into which god inserted himself? (iii) it is a bald statement and can be dismissed without evidence.

If you say "God came first." the questions arise, "Where was he before and why did He feel it necessary to leave? And how do you know?" If you say "everything existed and God inserted himself into it." Then, "How do you know? and "He is not a creator."

GB when have I said these things. Are you sure you posted in the right thread? :?

Hey, it's a good point. ;)

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: One Above All on May 19, 2014, 01:42:28 PM

You're welcome to an opinion. The concept of God is definitely real, the objective God; who knows? It is possible with all the possibilities the universe has to offer. Maybe God does not want to be obvious. Maybe God wants us to figure out how to help ourselves so God is unseen and silent. Maybe?

What keeps us from becoming Xmen?

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Anfauglir on May 23, 2014, 11:43:10 AM

cop out much? I believe the correct words are I concede this debate. That's okay I understand pride.

Super!

To be specific, when you initially said your views were "falsifiable", I thought that meant in some practical and realistic sense, and therefore I saw some point in the conversation.

As it has turned out, you intended the "technically falsifiable but not actually possible" sense of the word - and I've no interest in such discussions. If you do have that interest, then super! Have fun!

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 23, 2014, 01:46:14 PM

cop out much? I believe the correct words are I concede this debate. That's okay I understand pride.

Super!

To be specific, when you initially said your views were "falsifiable", I thought that meant in some practical and realistic sense, and therefore I saw some point in the conversation.

As it has turned out, you intended the "technically falsifiable but not actually possible" sense of the word - and I've no interest in such discussions. If you do have that interest, then super! Have fun!

There is no practical way to falsify the big bang either. It is falsifiable in principal; is it not?

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 23, 2014, 01:49:38 PM

I'm pretty sure that puts you, Anfauglir, in check, if not check mate.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Anfauglir on May 23, 2014, 03:50:19 PM

cop out much? I believe the correct words are I concede this debate. That's okay I understand pride.

Super!

To be specific, when you initially said your views were "falsifiable", I thought that meant in some practical and realistic sense, and therefore I saw some point in the conversation.

As it has turned out, you intended the "technically falsifiable but not actually possible" sense of the word - and I've no interest in such discussions. If you do have that interest, then super! Have fun!

There is no practical way to falsify the big bang either. It is falsifiable in principal; is it not?

.....and I don't find conversation about that interesting either.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Anfauglir on May 23, 2014, 03:54:31 PM

I'm pretty sure that puts you, Anfauglir, in check, if not check mate.

If you feel that winning is important, super! You have indeed won - I thought this was going to be a thread where there would be some realistically falsifiable propositions about your god - I was wrong. So yes indeed, you win that one!

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 23, 2014, 08:57:55 PM

I'm pretty sure that puts you, Anfauglir, in check, if not check mate.

If you feel that winning is important, super! You have indeed won - I thought this was going to be a thread where there would be some realistically falsifiable propositions about your god - I was wrong. So yes indeed, you win that one!

All great things are discovered when people work together! It is just as realistic as any kind of falsifiable claim about the big bang.

I need a team of scientist to help me out. Do you know any that might be interested? ;) I would be happy to hear any ideas that you might have. I really would. Then we can maybe finally put an end to our debate. :laugh: I want to know damn it. I'm not just being argumentative. I do respect your opinion. I think you're sharp as a tact. Just for fun can we please explore the idea. Hell I might discover that you're right, you never know.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Star Stuff on May 23, 2014, 09:06:49 PM

You're just jealous. :laugh: And no it doesn't it's a statement not a question. I wasn't asking I was telling. My spelling and grammar is usually on point Star Stuff.

That happens all the time by expert journalist that even get edited. I am human. You are not perfect either. You are desperate when you have to pick on grammar. I never said God helps you spell or punctuate!

Quit railroading my thread with your petty BS, please.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 24, 2014, 05:03:24 AM

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: eh! on May 24, 2014, 06:24:02 AM

No you got it the wrong way round....things created the big bang, Einstein ripped off others work. I did read the biography ....of the universe, its called physics, try it. might clean all that gunk that is between your ears out.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 24, 2014, 06:47:50 AM

No you got it the wrong way round....things created the big bang, Einstein ripped off others work. I did read the biography ....of the universe, its called physics, try it. might clean all that gunk that is between your ears out.

What things? Things created God? What's the difference eh!?

I don't have gunk between my ears but thanks for caring. awwwwwww

I study physics on the Science Channel. ;) What am I to replace my happiness with eh!? Happiness is not gunk. Whut? :? :? :? :P

You get your science from tv and youtube oh fer... yes i am serious, i seriously don't give a fuk how you take it.

don't remove the gunk you will disappear. do you think you are owed happiness.

and WWGHA, you one out. I desire happiness. Yes I deserve it and so do you. I think we all do. It used to be about shelter, food and water; physical needs. Now it's about happiness/emotionaal and how that relates to our health. A world of happy people would be a fantastically awesome place to raise families. Oh What a Wonderful World lalalalala....

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: eh! on May 24, 2014, 08:31:41 AM

No offence but you are one stupid hippy. your last post makes me so unhappy, why are you doing this to me.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Disciple of Sagan on May 24, 2014, 10:29:28 AM

Alright, can you please lay off the insults, eh!? It's one thing to disagree and to point out the reasons why, but personal attacks are uncalled for.

I would come to your defense if the same was done to you, or any other poster for that matter (with the exception of perhaps two particular theists whose opinions I find particularly abhorrent. You know who you are).

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: One Above All on May 24, 2014, 01:00:58 PM

Ignoring eh!'s unfortunate comments, he is right about the Big Bang theory being falsifiable.The Big Bang theory makes several predictions. It predicted the cosmic background radiation (CBR), among other things. Not only that, but it predicted what shape it would take. Note, of course, that this was a prediction based on incomplete data (at the time) and assuming "perfect" conditions, so the initial result was less than perfect. There's a lot of static in the observations, mostly due to, I believe, planets and other large bodies getting in the way, as well as defects in the devices themselves[1]. Here's an image:(http://www.daviddarling.info/images/cosmic_microwave_background.jpg)The image on top is the prediction, while the bottom one represents the measurements taken.

One how long did it take and how many scientist did it take to do this?

[wiki=History of the Big Bang theory]Wikipedia[/wiki] says that spiral nebulae (misidentified spiral galaxies) were first observed to be receding in 1910. If we assume this to be the beginning, it took approximately 104 years, as the idea is still being studied today. If we take into account that the idea itself was proposed in 1927, it took about 87 years (again, the idea is still being studied nowadays).I don't know how many scientists were involved, but, given the time frame and significance of this theory, it was probably a lot. If I had to guess (and I cannot stress this enough: it is a guess), I'd say the number is in the hundreds - maybe thousands - of scientists.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: eh! on May 24, 2014, 04:23:47 PM

What you can't just have a revelation that explains all life and the afterlife creation and everything in between just like that. science sux.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 25, 2014, 06:29:48 AM

One how long did it take and how many scientist did it take to do this?

[wiki=History of the Big Bang theory]Wikipedia[/wiki] says that spiral nebulae (misidentified spiral galaxies) were first observed to be receding in 1910. If we assume this to be the beginning, it took approximately 104 years, as the idea is still being studied today. If we take into account that the idea itself was proposed in 1927, it took about 87 years (again, the idea is still being studied nowadays).I don't know how many scientists were involved, but, given the time frame and significance of this theory, it was probably a lot. If I had to guess (and I cannot stress this enough: it is a guess), I'd say the number is in the hundreds - maybe thousands - of scientists.

Okay so my point is it took many scientists and many years. I think mine will take a while as well. The more we learn about the big bang the more we will learn about my idea. I guess only time will tell.

I'm pretty sure there are others that think this might be where God come from.

Thanks for the info One, you're so smart. That grammar of your's is off the charts. Immaculate spelling, punctuation and knowing when to use capital letters. I can't wait to read your book.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: One Above All on May 25, 2014, 06:42:53 AM

Okay so my point is it took many scientists and many years. I think mine will take a while as well. The more we learn about the big bang the more we will learn about my idea. I guess only time will tell.

I'm pretty sure there are others that think this might be where God come from.

Your idea is not new. It's thousands of years old at best. Many philosophers (all of them, I'd bet) have posited the existence of god(s) and tried to come up with arguments for it. In, let's say, 500 years, nothing has unequivocally pointed in that direction. However, in the ~100 years since the Big Bang theory was proposed, we've made enormous advances in it. This should give you some idea as to why I (and others) believe you're wrong.

Thanks for the info One, you're so smart. That grammar of your's is off the charts. Immaculate spelling, punctuation and knowing when to use capital letters. I can't wait to read your book.

Thanks, but I doubt I'll be telling anyone online which pseudonym I used when publishing it, assuming it even gets published by an actual publisher. However, I have asked for advice from one of my teachers who has written several short books (even in comparison to the length I predict mine will be). In addition, I have already finished the first chapter's first draft. Now I'm waiting for a friend to proof-read it while I work on my fan fictions.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 25, 2014, 07:11:56 AM

Okay so my point is it took many scientists and many years. I think mine will take a while as well. The more we learn about the big bang the more we will learn about my idea. I guess only time will tell.

I'm pretty sure there are others that think this might be where God come from.

Your idea is not new. It's thousands of years old at best. Many philosophers (all of them, I'd bet) have posited the existence of god(s) and tried to come up with arguments for it. In, let's say, 500 years, nothing has unequivocally pointed in that direction. However, in the ~100 years since the Big Bang theory was proposed, we've made enormous advances in it. This should give you some idea as to why I (and others) believe you're wrong.

Thanks for the info One, you're so smart. That grammar of your's is off the charts. Immaculate spelling, punctuation and knowing when to use capital letters. I can't wait to read your book.

Thanks, but I doubt I'll be telling anyone online which pseudonym I used when publishing it, assuming it even gets published by an actual publisher. However, I have asked for advice from one of my teachers who has written several short books (even in comparison to the length I predict mine will be). In addition, I have already finished the first chapter's first draft. Now I'm waiting for a friend to proof-read it while I work on my fan fictions.

I am not talking about the existence of God but that God could have been formed in the big bang. That couldn't have possibly come around until the actual theory. So what I'm saying is there are others who think God could have been formed in the big bang.

It'll get published. Think positive. Make it immaculate. Give them no other choice. Be that damn good.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: One Above All on May 25, 2014, 07:33:39 AM

I am not talking about the existence of God but that God could have been formed in the big bang. That couldn't have possibly come around until the actual theory. So what I'm saying is there are others who think God could have been formed in the big bang.

Hindu cosmology, according to Wikipedia[1], makes claims similar to the Big Bang theory. It stands to reason that there have been those who thought what you think upon hearing those claims. Of course, this is speculative in nature.

I am not talking about the existence of God but that God could have been formed in the big bang.

And invisible pink flying magic unicorns could be playing on the backside of Pluto. Who cares! What is 'possible' is not important. What is important is what can be demonstrated to be most likely the case. Mere possibility is off-topic and pointless b/c we do not base our beliefs upon what is just possible.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 27, 2014, 04:54:31 AM

I am not talking about the existence of God but that God could have been formed in the big bang.

And invisible pink flying magic unicorns could be playing on the backside of Pluto. Who cares! What is 'possible' is not important. What is important is what can be demonstrated to be most likely the case. Mere possibility is off-topic and pointless b/c we do not base our beliefs upon what is just possible.

Median I know you can do better than that. Sounds like an emotional response. No body has ever demonstrated the Big Bang. It is not possible! :)

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: median on May 28, 2014, 04:37:58 PM

I am not talking about the existence of God but that God could have been formed in the big bang.

And invisible pink flying magic unicorns could be playing on the backside of Pluto. Who cares! What is 'possible' is not important. What is important is what can be demonstrated to be most likely the case. Mere possibility is off-topic and pointless b/c we do not base our beliefs upon what is just possible.

Median I know you can do better than that. Sounds like an emotional response. No body has ever demonstrated the Big Bang. It is not possible! :)

Oh on the contrary, and it sounds like you did not read my response carefully enough. We have in fact demonstrated the big bang model sufficiently enough to warrant acceptance of it's predictions (because it has stood the test of observation, via the cosmic background radiation, the mathematics that coincidences with the data and predictions, and the cosmos data that has been collected through time). So we do in fact have sufficient reason for accepting the model as the best explanation, with the most power of explaining the given facts that we have.

On the other hand, you do not have this with an alleged "God" thing. 1) Such an alleged being has never been coherently or logically defined and 2) that appeal to such a thing amounts to an argument from ignorance fallacy ("I can't explain this any other way. Therefore God did it"). So the argument is fallacious and unsound right from git go and it should be abandoned.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: One Above All on May 28, 2014, 04:41:41 PM

If your god was hiding, then you'd be right. Of course, then we'd have to ask why a benevolent deity would do that.

God is not a superhero. I believe God is not seen because God wants us to fix our own problems. I am so afraid that it's going to take an astrological tragedy of death and destruction before this change happens. They just announced that they're going to approve fracking in NC. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: One Above All on May 29, 2014, 06:05:52 AM

God is not a superhero. I believe God is not seen because God wants us to fix our own problems. I am so afraid that it's going to take an astrological tragedy of death and destruction before this change happens.

Then your god is worth less than Doctor Manhattan, who uses his godly powers[1] to help mankind. He tries, anyway. According to himself, "[he] can change a lot of things, but [he] can't change human nature".

God is not a superhero. I believe God is not seen because God wants us to fix our own problems. I am so afraid that it's going to take an astrological tragedy of death and destruction before this change happens.

Then your god is worth less than Doctor Manhattan, who uses his godly powers[1] to help mankind. He tries, anyway. According to himself, "[he] can change a lot of things, but [he] can't change human nature".

To be frank, human life, as a whole, is irrelevant when compared to other life forms, as a whole. Sure, we're the most intelligent species on Earth, as far as we know, but that doesn't mean we're worth more. According to a new estimate, there are 8.8 million species on Earth. Each is an essential part of the biosphere. They have predators, and they have prey. They make and/or consume oxygen. They filter the oceans. Humans (the species; not our accomplishments; we have done some pretty amazing things) are not essential to the biosphere. We have no predators. We don't even have prey, technically; we don't eat exclusively this or that. We consume oxygen, sure, but that's about it. We manipulate other species through selective breeding to suit our purposes, regardless of what it does to the species in question.To put the human species above all other species is to value humans 8.8 million times more than other species. I'll put that into numbers:1/8.8 million is: 1.13636364*10-7, or 0.0000000113636364%. That's how much of Earth's biosphere humans represent. To put this into more numbers, there are 100 trillion bacteria in each human body. Even if we only took the bacteria in one human, they outnumber humans as a whole approximately 14285.7:1.Which is not to say that human life is irrelevant. Just that when we do things like this, we need to think beyond ourselves. We need to realize that we're not the center of the Universe[1]. We're not even the center of the world.

To be frank, human life, as a whole, is irrelevant when compared to other life forms, as a whole. Sure, we're the most intelligent species on Earth, as far as we know, but that doesn't mean we're worth more. According to a new estimate, there are 8.8 million species on Earth. Each is an essential part of the biosphere. They have predators, and they have prey. They make and/or consume oxygen. They filter the oceans. Humans (the species; not our accomplishments; we have done some pretty amazing things) are not essential to the biosphere. We have no predators. We don't even have prey, technically; we don't eat exclusively this or that. We consume oxygen, sure, but that's about it. We manipulate other species through selective breeding to suit our purposes, regardless of what it does to the species in question.To put the human species above all other species is to value humans 8.8 million times more than other species. I'll put that into numbers:1/8.8 million is: 1.13636364*10-7, or 0.0000000113636364%. That's how much of Earth's biosphere humans represent. To put this into more numbers, there are 100 trillion bacteria in each human body. Even if we only took the bacteria in one human, they outnumber humans as a whole approximately 14285.7:1.Which is not to say that human life is irrelevant. Just that when we do things like this, we need to think beyond ourselves. We need to realize that we're not the center of the Universe[1]. We're not even the center of the world.

Well I sure can't argue with that. Excellent post One. Very impressive number skills. ;)

Thanks.I do want to stress, again, that I am not saying human life is irrelevant. Just that, when we take into account the other species as a whole, one species (that doesn't even contribute to the biosphere in any significant way, I might add), is irrelevant. That's why we've been able to exterminate viruses without any harm to the biosphere. They are not alive, technically, but even if they were, they don't really do anything other than kill other beings. They don't breathe. They don't eat, nor are they eaten. They don't reproduce (not really). They do nothing aside from causing death.

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: junebug72 on May 29, 2014, 07:20:49 AM

Well I sure can't argue with that. Excellent post One. Very impressive number skills. ;)

Thanks.I do want to stress, again, that I am not saying human life is irrelevant. Just that, when we take into account the other species as a whole, one species (that doesn't even contribute to the biosphere in any significant way, I might add), is irrelevant. That's why we've been able to exterminate viruses without any harm to the biosphere. They are not alive, technically, but even if they were, they don't really do anything other than kill other beings. They don't breathe. They don't eat, nor are they eaten. They don't reproduce (not really). They do nothing aside from causing death.

I'll give you another thumbs up in an hour. ;)

Title: Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
Post by: Defiance on July 10, 2014, 10:55:41 PM