As I see it, the lawsuit grows exponentially. First off, the number of customers impacted by an upcoming (potential) re-call grows with every sale.

Secondly, and most importantly is the penalty phase. If Apple was made aware of a problem, yet persisted in selling products known to be defective - the penalty could be much higher than the cost of fixing the origional component.

The system is broken. Any penalty would be offset by profits. Just look at BP. Will they change the way they do business? Not as long as it keeps making them money.

The class action would make money for the lawyers, and you would get your money back. You wouldn't get compensated for your "pain and suffering" or "loss of income". You might get a coupon good at the Apple store for about 50 bucks.

As I see it, the lawsuit grows exponentially. First off, the number of customers impacted by an upcoming (potential) re-call grows with every sale.

Secondly, and most importantly is the penalty phase. If Apple was made aware of a problem, yet persisted in selling products known to be defective - the penalty could be much higher than the cost of fixing the origional component.

Now that is a very good point!

Tallest Skil:

"Eventually Google will have their Afghanistan with Oracle and collapse" "The future is Apple, Google, and a third company that hasn't yet been created."

Thinking practically, in a class action suit, each of the participants in the lawsuit (think individual iphone owners) eventually (after 12-24 months) would receive an amount between $0.75 and $5.25 in a lump sum. But the law firm would receive millions, literally millions. That is why these lawsuits exist...not to promote fairness, but to promote income to firms which specialize in class action lawsuits.

And although I believe that there are some owners who do experience problems (new technology always has problems), experience with Apple indicates that if enough of us simply complain to Apple, the glitches will be fixed in a reasonable length of time.

Golly...it is still the best phone on the market...unless you just want to hate Apple.

Except in this case, we are talking about a high profile company, a high profile product, and a high profile issue. The attention to this potential lawsuit will be a big hand to help force a fix out of Apple long before it ever goes to trial. If it wasn't for the media, blogs, forums, and lawsuits on this issue, Apple might sweep this under the rug. Because it could be very time consuming and costly to fix if it is truly a hardware flaw.

Are we really? Sometimes I think those of us who haunt these forums have an inflated view of our own importance. It is high profile for us, but what about the non tech fans out there? Yes, this story made a few inches of column in some big papers, and was mentioned briefly in the nightly news. But they have moved on. We have not. I'm just sayin'--a little perspective on the relative importance of all this.

Now, a rational person would assume that Apple, having made several millions of phones, would be capable of making a G4 phone that met, or exceeded the cell phone functionality of previous generations.

If you bought a Honda/Toyota that arbitrarily stopped if you held the steering wheel a 'certain way' - would you accept that? Very likely you would be outraged - yet you tell us that actually have, and depend on a cell phone to 'cool off'. Seems a bit hypocritical, doesn't it? A cell phone is NOT a toy - it's a vital communications device.

We are not complaining that Angry Birds doesn't work on the G4 (however Dragon's Lair fails to show either the sword button or joystick icons). We are stating that the basic and most fundamental part of our device does not work as it should. We are further stating that the most basic testing should have reveiled this design flaw.

2. Did you buy a bumper?

Have you bothered to look at the backlog on bumpers? Here's a hint, order today and it MAY be shipped in late July. Yup, you can't buy a bumper today if your life depended on it - however there are several cases available through Amazon. Still, this is a work-around for a design flaw, and in now way fixes the design flaw.

3. Return the iPhone .... eat the costs

Unacceptable. Hi, sorry about that Honda/Toyota leaving you stranded in the boonies becuse you touched the steering wheel in the 'wrong way'. Sorry about the towing and maintenance costs ... but we will give you another car - however you are going to eat any problems you encountered due to the car leaving you stranded.

You would NEVER accept that from Toyota/Honda - why would you make a special allowance for Apple? Fanboi? A defect, is a defect. Apple knows this, that's why instead of being a 'man' and taking ownership of the problem, it takes a Class Action lawsuit to force them to do the right thing. Unfortunately, Apple is not alone in this behavior.

1. Well that's where we differ. I pay attention to users reviews along with major publications. Reviews from major sites tend to gloss over intricacies like this.

2. From what I understood there were bumpers available at the Apple Store at launch. If there isn't an Apple store near you, then you'll just have to hold the phone differently for know. (ducks!)You could also order a 3rd party case until the situation is resolved.

3. I'm not making any exceptions for Apple. I waited even when I've been eligible since pre-orders began. I don't blindly trust any company with my cash especially when Apple always has a bugs on new hardware. A lawsuit is another way to go but you won't be getting back the equivalent of the termination fee you paid.

BTW do you have dropping signal issue with the death grip or do you get no service at all? If it's the latter it is AT&T and not Apple.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not unsympathetic to your situation (while it is a rare case) but it's always best to take a wait and see approach. Hopefully the software patch fixes your issue.

Are we really? Sometimes I think those of us who haunt these forums have an inflated view of our own importance. It is high profile for us, but what about the non tech fans out there? Yes, this story made a few inches of column in some big papers, and was mentioned briefly in the nightly news. But they have moved on. We have not. I'm just sayin'--a little perspective on the relative importance of all this.

We are talking about a phone that has issues performing its main function. Not a minor secondary issue such as it could scratch or break easy. This issue will not go away anytime soon. But I'm sure Apple hopes it does.

Good point, but there is an out to prevent that. Apple would settle without admitting fault. The lawyers make money, we get screwed again. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Like I said before it would take a class action that would have legal counsel who would be personally
vested as a plaintiff. Not a third party who just makes money whether they win or make a settlement. Someone who would rather have the issue fixed then given a boatload of cash to accept Apple's response as "We didn't do anything wrong. Here's some money.".

Apple publicly responded to reports and said that any mobile phone has reception issues when held improperly.

Could someone supply a reference that Apple said is caused by holding the device improperly?

Quote:

Naturally, this problem [signal attenuation] has received a lot of play online. That’s a shame, because it only tells a fraction of the whole story. It’s not necessary to hold the iPhone 4 in a specific way to avoid the problem. Quite the opposite; in my experiments, I found that there was just one position in which the signal degrades ...and it’s not even how I normally hold a phone.

Bottom line on this bit: be aware of the problem ... but overall, don’t worry about it.

As many people have pointed out, this affects all phones, and even further, radio devices.

So are they doing a class action against every manufacturer of radio equipment which doesn't get 100% reception everywhere and under every circulstance?

Phil

the CEO of Google didn't spout off about a new revolutionary antenna that was first designed in the 1990's. and Google didn't try to push rubber rings at 1000000% profit to cover up a design defect. and i've never heard of tech support telling people how to hold a cell phone

I was told last week by an Apple level 2 technician that they would replace the phone. Today he called back, as he said he would, and told me that they wouldn't replace the phone because any replacement would do the same thing. He also said there was no point sending it in for repair because they would find nothing wrong with it. He said the iPhone 3G and 3GS antennas where the same (that wasn't my experience and not after I upgraded to iOS 4 either). He basically echoed SJ; hold it differently and try a case, which they won't give you one for free.

If this is true, it looks like Apple is going to try the old Denial route which it seems to have a lot of practice doing. Pretend the problem doesn't exist and see how many people actually complain. But if this problem affects a large number of iPhones, it could be a losing battle for Apple to keep denying the problem.

Of course, it's only been, what, a few days since the iPhone went on sale? I think this class action lawsuit is a bit premature, but, it might just help hold Apple's feet to the fire to take action faster and acknowledge the problem rather than dragging its feet and pretending the problem doesn't exist for as long as possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by casey4147

My wife used to be able to light a small florescent tube (from a camping lantern) by holding both ends in her hands - she may still, hasn't tried it lately. She made a laser printer spit out solid black pages by standing next to it. She's had an iPhone for almost a year and it's survived the experience, so it'll be interesting to see what happens when we upgrade to iPhone 4's when eligibility comes around...

Apple should hire your wife to do hardware testing on the next iPhone.

... That is why these lawsuits exist...not to promote fairness, but to promote income to firms which specialize in class action lawsuits. ...

Actually, the reason these class action suits exist is to financially punish companies who engage in bad behavior. The income to law firms who bring them is simply an incentive to bring about this punishment. In the absence of government power or will to bring about these results, this is the only alternative available, and it's how the law and legal system has been set up in our society. Individual consumers could never get a lawyer to take a case where typically the best outcome is a few hundred to a couple thousand dollars. Consumers on their own would stand no chance against a phalanx of corporate lawyers. Companies could essentially do whatever they wanted without fear of repercussions. The possibility of large damage awards will act to constrain them in most cases, and the object lesson provided by those who still behave badly continually acts as a deterrent to the rest.

We are talking about a phone that has issues performing its main function. Not a minor secondary issue such as it could scratch or break easy. This issue will not go away anytime soon. But I'm sure Apple hopes it does.

That is true. But on the other hand some are acting as though the phone is bricked. That it simply doesn't work at all. It does make calls and it does receive data. The question is one of sensitivity and coverage. Those are important, but it's not at all like a car that stops running in mid desert as some have said. Or accelerates into a wall, killing all aboard. Perspective is all that I am calling for.

you either don't know how to read or just don't care to. I'll give you another chance to carefully read what i wrote.

Quote:

If this is an inherit flaw in the design, as may have been trying to prove, and Apple's claims that there "is no problem"...then this is lying and Apple should provide some kind of restitution. If Apple wants to deny something that is inheritly wrong with the design, a lawsuit is justified, that is unless they cannot prove that this is a design flaw in every device and not just a small percentage. I mean, we have heard many accounts of this problem, in other countries too (so you can't claim it's a network issue), but that's only a very small percentage of the amount of iphones out there sold as of today. They sold 1.7M phones in the first 3 days, and we've heard only about 1% (at best) of them having problems. This would have to be (i'm speculating) an issue of one out of every 5 phones with this issue before it becomes something worth suing over.

That was my point. You're speculating, but it could already be way more than that. I can see "you're speculating", but the way you wrote it it looks like you're speculation on the upper end of a number that was made up. The 1% figure is bullshit. It was fed to an Apple Store employee who simply agreed, sort of. But he wouldn't tell, unless he was allowed to, and he wouldn't know enough to agree anyhow. I've seen a few surveys at this stage and the figure looks to be closer to 60% than to 1%, and an awful lot of people are suggesting those who don't have it will eventually notice it when the are in an area that isn't perfect. And not from reception, but from touching the hardware in a certain manner.

If I get my money back from Apple for the G4, I'm still out the money I paid to Verizon to leave - under the assumption that Apple could deliver a G4 phone that functioned at least as well as thier earlier products.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hodar

1. Because the iPhone G4 WAS tested and reviewed prior to release.

Now, a rational person would assume that Apple, having made several millions of phones, would be capable of making a G4 phone that met, or exceeded the cell phone functionality of previous generations.

We are not complaining that Angry Birds doesn't work on the G4 (however Dragon's Lair fails to show either the sword button or joystick icons).

Sorry, but can you please stop calling it a G4, especially when quoting. There is no product called iPhone G4. It's "iPhone 4". Thanks. Carry on.

My wife used to be able to light a small florescent tube (from a camping lantern) by holding both ends in her hands - she may still, hasn't tried it lately. She made a laser printer spit out solid black pages by standing next to it. She's had an iPhone for almost a year and it's survived the experience, so it'll be interesting to see what happens when we upgrade to iPhone 4's when eligibility comes around...

What happens when she stands near a clock?

Quote:

Originally Posted by HammerofTruth

It's only a matter of time when Verizon makes a new commercial about left handed cellphone users.

If they do, we can take that as an indication they will not be selling any Apple products any
time soon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by anonymouse

Actually, the reason these class action suits exist is to financially punish companies who engage in bad behavior. The income to law firms who bring them is simply an incentive to bring about this punishment. In the absence of government power or will to bring about these results, this is the only alternative available, and it's how the law and legal system has been set up in our society. Individual consumers could never get a lawyer to take a case where typically the best outcome is a few hundred to a couple thousand dollars. Consumers on their own would stand no chance against a phalanx of corporate lawyers. Companies could essentially do whatever they wanted without fear of repercussions. The possibility of large damage awards will act to constrain them in most cases, and the object lesson provided by those who still behave badly continually acts as a deterrent to the rest.

This is something for people to keep in mind when they are pondering the desirability of
"tort reform".

BTW do you have dropping signal issue with the death grip or do you get no service at all? If it's the latter it is AT&T and not Apple.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not unsympathetic to your situation (while it is a rare case) but it's always best to take a wait and see approach. Hopefully the software patch fixes your issue.

I can have between 2 and 5 bars on my phone when it's on my desk; as soon as I pick it up to answer a call (or make one), the bars drop to No Service within about 10 seconds.

I now have the iFrogz case on it; it's much more consistent. Now, with the case, my issue is poor AT&T coverage in my work area. However, this does not remove Apple from having a design defect.

As I have stated previously, I'm an engineer and have worked R&D for 20+ yrs. This was a Freshman Engineering student level screw-up. The most basic, the most primitive level of testing should have revealed this design flaw, unless this is a manufacturing defect from Foxconn.

I would have done one of the following (in order of 'goodness):
1. Annodize a clearcoat non-conductive finish on the metal bezel
2. Apply a non-conductive clearcoat poly finish

Either one of those would have alleviated this issue. I suspect that this WAS in place, and that Foxconn might have made an manufacturing error in bypassing this step on some number of iPhones in the manufacturing stream. This would explain why some phones exhibit this issue, and others do not.

... This is something for people to keep in mind when they are pondering the desirability of
"tort reform".

And it's something that people pushing for "tort reform" don't want you to think about. They would prefer to stir up resentment against "greedy lawyers", while obfuscating the fact that our legal system is based on "greedy lawyers" acting as a check on "greedy corporations". Remove the check without creating some new one (perhaps they would prefer more direct government involvement?) and the results are highly predictable.

As I have stated previously, I'm an engineer and have worked R&D for 20+ yrs. This was a Freshman Engineering student level screw-up. The most basic, the most primitive level of testing should have revealed this design flaw, unless this is a manufacturing defect from Foxconn.

So you conclude that it is more likely that Apple made a Freshman Engineering student level screw-up and neglected to perform the most primitive level of testing?

Personally, I am leaning more toward the alternative explanation, that it is a manufacturing
defect.

If this is true, it looks like Apple is going to try the old Denial route which it seems to have a lot of practice doing. Pretend the problem doesn't exist and see how many people actually complain. But if this problem affects a large number of iPhones, it could be a losing battle for Apple to keep denying the problem.

Of course, it's only been, what, a few days since the iPhone went on sale? I think this class action lawsuit is a bit premature, but, it might just help hold Apple's feet to the fire to take action faster and acknowledge the problem rather than dragging its feet and pretending the problem doesn't exist for as long as possible.

Apple should hire your wife to do hardware testing on the next iPhone.

It certainly is true. I called the nearest Apple store to me, Glasgow, Scotland, and they said they wouldn't give any cases away free.

The phone is otherwise perfect and so I'll keep it and get a case, but I'm pissed thoroughly pissed off the stingy bastards couldn't even offer a free case.

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.

And it's something that people pushing for "tort reform" don't want you to think about. They would prefer to stir up resentment against "greedy lawyers", while obfuscating the fact that our legal system is based on "greedy lawyers" acting as a check on "greedy corporations". Remove the check without creating some new one (perhaps they would prefer more direct government involvement?) and the results are highly predictable.

So you conclude that it is more likely that Apple made a Freshman Engineering student level screw-up and neglected to perform the most primitive level of testing?

Personally, I am leaning more toward the alternative explanation, that it is a manufacturing
defect.

Well, there certainly seems to be something going on with "the seam" on at least some phones. If it turns out to be all phones, it's still possible that it's a manufacturing defect, but it's also possible that too much group-think led to the magnitude of the problem being dismissed.

Personally, I am leaning more toward the alternative explanation, that it is a manufacturing
defect.

If this was merely a a simple manufacturing defect, I would have expected Apple to have a response to this issue a long time ago. And Apple customer support is now telling customers a replacement phone will not fix their issue. It's obvious to me this issue is not a simple manufacturing defect, it's instead either a hardware (which I believe), or software flaw.

But whatever the case, Apple's denial an issue exists is very troublesome.

I think this iPhone shortage is a blessing in disguise. It will give potential iPhone 4 customers more time to absorb and become knowledgeable about this issue before making a purchase when they are finally widely available again.

If this was merely a a simple manufacturing defect, I would have expected Apple to have a response to this issue a long time ago. It's obvious to me this issue is not a simple manufacturing defect, it's instead either hardware (which I believe), or software flaw.

But whatever the case, Apple's denial an issue exists is very troublesome.

A long time ago? The first customers only received their phones a week ago.
I think it is reasonable for it to take at least a few days to completely diagnose a
problem in a device as complex as the iPhone.

If this was merely a a simple manufacturing defect, I would have expected Apple to have a response to this issue a long time ago. ...

That seems a little ridiculous. Whether it's a design flaw that they simply missed, a manufacturing defect (on some or all phones), a software issue, or something else, the iPhone 4 was officially released only last Friday. So given that it's only been in people's hands for 5 days, how could they possibly have had a response "a long time ago."

Five days is barely enough time for them to get some affected phones back and start investigating/confirming the problem, let alone fully understand it and possible fixes.

Jobs' email response was a horrible move from a PR perspective, but I think people screaming for Apple's blood at this point have gotten more than a bit carried away with themselves (and a class action suit seems obviously premature). It's completely insane to expect them to have a definitive answer and resolution in 5 days.

That doesn't mean we all have to pretend that there is absolutely no problem of any kind, but I think we do have to give Apple a chance to investigate and respond before we start knotting the rope.

So you conclude that it is more likely that Apple made a Freshman Engineering student level screw-up and neglected to perform the most primitive level of testing?

Personally, I am leaning more toward the alternative explanation, that it is a manufacturing
defect.

How did this manufacturing defect make it out the door? Final test should have caught this. In fact, a reasonable manufacturing process would have caught this immediately. When you mass produce anything, you have periodic checks within each lot; and manditory inspections at the beginning of each lot.

How did this manufacturing defect make it out the door? Final test should have caught this. In fact, a reasonable manufacturing process would have caught this immediately. When you mass produce anything, you have periodic checks within each lot; and manditory inspections at the beginning of each lot.

Obviously, this didn't happen.

Well, what if the people doing the checks at the factory are wearing gloves to avoid smudging the phones, which ended up masking the problem?

It's pretty easy to say there is no way they could have missed this. It's not so easy to devise a system of quality control that will never miss anything.

If this was merely a a simple manufacturing defect, I would have expected Apple to have a response to this issue a long time ago. And Apple customer support is now telling customers a replacement phone will not fix their issue. It's obvious to me this issue is not a simple manufacturing defect, it's instead either a hardware (which I believe), or software flaw.

But whatever the case, Apple's denial an issue exists is very troublesome.

"It's obvious to me this issue is not a simple manufacturing defect, it's instead either a hardware (which I believe), or software flaw."
Do you have info that no one else has? Are you an engineer or have technical or manufacturing degree or knowledge that would support that assumption?
Do you have some "inside knowledge" or facts that are not public?
You said this was a hardware issue? How did you come to that conclusion? What facts or data do you base this on?

We need more info before we can make assumptions that based on factual evidense.
Just because you believe it to be true...doesn't make it factual.......
You pointed this same very point out to me a few posts ago...rememeber?

Tallest Skil:

"Eventually Google will have their Afghanistan with Oracle and collapse" "The future is Apple, Google, and a third company that hasn't yet been created."

Consider this a notice that I wish to testify against your claim in this case. I request that you notify the court within 30 days of filing your claim that I request to be disposed as a witness against your claim, at your expense. I require you to notify me in writing that you have notified the court of my request, within 30 days of filing your claim.

"It's obvious to me this issue is not a simple manufacturing defect, it's instead either a hardware (which I believe), or software flaw."
Do you have info that no one else has? Are you an engineer or have technical or manufacturing degree or knowledge that would support that assumption?
Do you have some "inside knowledge" or facts that are not public?
You said this was a hardware issue? How did you come to that conclusion? What facts or data do you base this on?

We need more info before we can make assumptions that based on factual evidense.
Just because you believe it to be true...doesn't make it factual.......
You pointed this same very point out to me a few posts ago...rememeber?

Nope, I said obvious to me. Purely my opinion, not a fact like the ones you try to give about the percentage this issue affects. It's my opinion based upon personal observation, reading numerous articles from experts, Apple's denial and lack of response, and my logical deduction. But it's just my opinion. And Apple's continued denial and lack of response will fuel more people thinking the same way. But I could be completely wrong. I hope I am wrong, because I want an iPhone 4, but not in it's current flawed state.

It would be nice to get an official response from Apple along those lines. Apple support is telling customers a different story.

It would be nice, but companies are generally loathe to say there is definitely a problem at a point where they may not be sure if there is or, if there is, what it is. Mostly because initial reports or "admissions" of problems will be widely reported in the press and if they later determine that it's limited, etc. the press will largely be silent.

I think it's reasonable for them to remain silent on the issue for at least a few weeks, although, if it turns out to be a real and widespread problem, they've then put themselves on the hook for more sold phones during that time, with potentially a larger financial hit, or a bigger PR problem.

How did this manufacturing defect make it out the door? Final test should have caught this. In fact, a reasonable manufacturing process would have caught this immediately. When you mass produce anything, you have periodic checks within each lot; and manditory inspections at the beginning of each lot.

Obviously, this didn't happen.

It is not all that obvious. We know that the white version is delayed because of manufacturing
problems. We also know that many phones shipped with the screen bonding substance insufficiently cured, causing yellowish blotches on some screens. We don't know how many lots of black iPhones were rejected, because of spot checks. We don't know how extensive and well designed the final tests were. Finally, a certain portion of all manufacturing runs makes it out the door with defects. We don't have accurate statistics on the prevalence of the issue for iPhones, so
we can't say with certainty that it is excessive.

Nope, I said obvious to me. Purely my opinion, not a fact like the ones you try to give about the percentage this issue affects. I said several times, my opinion based upon personal observation, reading numerous articles from experts, Apple's denial and lack of response, and my logical deduction. But it's just my opinion. And Apple's continued denial and lack of response will fuel more people thinking the same way. But I could be completely wrong.

But my percentage quote was from an "APPLE STORE MANAGER" I did not make it up based on my assumptions.....
EDIT:
Here is your post...no where does it say this is "my opinion"If this was merely a a simple manufacturing defect, I would have expected Apple to have a response to this issue a long time ago. And Apple customer support is now telling customers a replacement phone will not fix their issue. It's obvious to me this issue is not a simple manufacturing defect, it's instead either a hardware (which I believe), or software flaw.

But whatever the case, Apple's denial an issue exists is very troublesome.

I think this iPhone shortage is a blessing in disguise. It will give potential iPhone 4 customers more time to absorb and become knowledgeable about this issue before making a purchase when they are finally widely available again.

Tallest Skil:

"Eventually Google will have their Afghanistan with Oracle and collapse" "The future is Apple, Google, and a third company that hasn't yet been created."

But my percentage quote was from an "APPLE STORE MANAGER" I did not make it up based on my assumptions.....

But you ran with that very limited data from one Apple store manager, that has many flaws we previously discussed, and painted it as a fact for the iPhone 4 issue. I just had to call you on how that limited data is very flawed.

But my percentage quote was from an "APPLE STORE MANAGER" I did not make it up based on my assumptions.....
EDIT:
Here is your post...no where does it say this is "my opinion"If this was merely a a simple manufacturing defect, I would have expected Apple to have a response to this issue a long time ago. And Apple customer support is now telling customers a replacement phone will not fix their issue. It's obvious to me this issue is not a simple manufacturing defect, it's instead either a hardware (which I believe), or software flaw.

But whatever the case, Apple's denial an issue exists is very troublesome.

I think this iPhone shortage is a blessing in disguise. It will give potential iPhone 4 customers more time to absorb and become knowledgeable about this issue before making a purchase when they are finally widely available again.

I highlighted and underlined the places above where its obviously my opinion, not fact.

But you ran with that very limited data from one Apple store manager, that has many flaws we previously discussed, and painted it as a fact for the iPhone 4 issue. I just had to call you on how that limited data is very flawed.

you are correct i did run with that information. I also said where it came from and did not say it was pure fact.
If you went to an Apple store and the store manager told you "hey man...the signal loss issue is purely a hardware issue based on what I see in my store"
You would be touting that all over these threads......I have no doubt......

Tallest Skil:

"Eventually Google will have their Afghanistan with Oracle and collapse" "The future is Apple, Google, and a third company that hasn't yet been created."