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00:16:01 Hello all.
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00:25:53 howdy.
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00:29:30 Are VALUE-CELL-{REF,SET} related to closure environments or something else?
00:30:06 (Seems half-likely to be something else.)
00:31:16 Hrm. Value cells have widetags.
00:32:37 Indirect value cell?
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00:34:18 Okay, they're for variables that are "both set and closed over".
00:35:22 I guess that falls under "closure environments".
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00:56:26 nyef: right. For when we actually need calue cells ;)
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00:57:24 And can't just share the closure environment, right?
00:58:01 I'm fairly certain python assumes flat closures in more than a few places.
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01:20:20 i must be missing something--if I have a pathname which is directory (i.e. pethname-name returns nil), how can i get the name of the directory?
01:20:48 Have you tried using PATHNAME-DIRECTORY ?
01:20:48 pathname-directory?
01:21:30 my understand is that the result of that is implementation-defined
01:21:37 CLHS glossary: valid pathname directory n. a string, a list of strings, nil, :wild, :unspecific, or some other object defined by the implementation to be a valid directory component.
01:21:55 Yes. Imagine that.
01:22:14 At the same time, it -is- the name of the directory.
01:23:10 ok, so I have the result of calling (directory), and i want to match based on the name of the directory entry (imagine that). can i do that in a conforming program?
01:23:45 No, but you can do so in any reasonable implementation.
01:26:04 well, this is what I do now -> (compose #'pathname #'car #'last #'pathname-directory) -- it works for me. the program runs. but it doesn't look like the obvious way to do it
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01:26:52 Anyone know which Lisps call validate-superclass when *compiling* defclass or the first defmethod specializing on said class? I know that CCL and SBCL do not, while Lispworks does.
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01:32:09 Qsource: why do you call PATHNAME?
01:32:59 kpreid: incidental. this gets fed into something which wants to call pathname-name
01:33:47 huh...I was thinking that what you want in that case is actually ENOUGH-NAMESTRING. but that returns a namestring, not a pathname. seems like a minor hole in the spec (not that e-n is what you ACTUALLY want)
01:34:25 Qsource: in that case, I recommend cl-fad:pathname-as-file
01:35:11 kpreid: well, really i'm calling (directory) and want to do a regexp match on the filename. in practice, this program already depends on sb-posix, so this is all a moot point, but i was surprised that i couldn't write this part portably
01:35:36 Qsource: just feed all your DIRECTORY results through pathname-as-file and you will be happier
01:35:55 i think i've already effectively reimplemented pathname-as-file ;/
01:36:09 cl-fad is basically the library that gives you the modern directory-is-a-kind-of-file view on top of cl pathnames
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01:37:27 cool. <3 clbuild
01:37:36 so I think you should use it just for the common concepts, even if it's trivial to do otherwise
01:37:47 Okay, arm port log updated.
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01:46:37 kpreid: i agree. since clbuild has it, it's painless. on the other hand, i hate dependencies, and if clbuild didn't have it i probably wouldn't have bothered :-/
01:47:01 bah. dependencies are how you simplify your program
01:47:09 ...and complicate the life of the people using it :)
01:47:21 heh
01:47:24 i wouldn't even admit the former
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01:47:42 external dependencies are the cause of 85% of my headaches and problems
01:47:47 all so you can space writing such intricate functions as "symbolicate"
01:47:59 *hefner* grumbles, updated cffi/alexandria/babel earlier
01:48:38 OTOH, i've found common lisp to be completely useless for anything smaller than a "large program", at which point dependencies are inevitable
01:48:51 "cymbaliceight"?
01:49:36 Useless for anything smaller than a "large program"?
01:49:47 Something doesn't seem right about that.
01:49:51 I use lisp for small programs all the times. arguably, I've never written a "large program".
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01:50:29 *stassats`* writes a lot of throw-away code
01:50:36 Large programs are grown from small ones.
01:51:05 How large is a "large program", anyway?
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01:51:35 just the other day I wrote a small program that reads a stream of NES controller inputs, builds a markov chain, plots it with graphviz, then normalizes the probabilities and dumps it back out as nice binary data my C program could consume
01:52:08 ... What on -earth- do you need a probablistic input model like that for?
01:52:24 maybe large project would be a better description. it's a matter of preference, personal style, and being spoiled. i hate having to paste curry and compose macros into everything i want to run as a script. a fatal flaw? no. annoying? very much so
01:52:39 *Qsource* wonders why you needed a C program
01:52:46 automatic emulator exerciser?
01:53:41 *stassats`* lives happily without curry/compose
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01:54:40 *Qsource* can also live without, but not happily :-)
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02:00:10 here is a good reddit post http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8l8ou/ask_proggit_does_anybody_have_experience_with/c09nasi
02:01:14 i have managed to avoid python and ruby for long, i'm oblivious to any good that comes out of them, cl-djula looks neat.
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02:02:35 *Qsource* like python. it was effectively my introduction to higher-level languages
02:03:45 me too, just not the same python (:
02:03:50 Qsource: heh. i tried 10 years ago or so, iirc, and it felt like a calculator
02:03:59 Heh.
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02:04:32 fusss: 10 years ago was probably a bad time to try python
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02:05:12 I thought ten years ago was when Python was cool, and I was ignoring it to play with Scheme.
02:05:58 i think it really matters what you're coming from. coming from scheme, i don't think python ever looked cool
02:06:04 yep, that's around the time ESR was hyping it, and ESR was being hyped.
02:08:27 10 years ago... I was spending way too much time on corewar.
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02:09:55 Ruby is nice. Python is bondage and disciplinely but doesn't give you a awesome type system as part of the deal.
02:10:14 i was writing bad C and trying to clone napster with Jeffrey Richter's book on my plastic lawn table
02:10:16 oh well, i haven't luck to compile iolib
02:10:16 however, Ruby is slow
02:10:25 but getting better
02:10:52 stassats`: latest?
02:11:13 i guess
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02:11:56 i built it last night on the usual platform; sbcl + x86 linux
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02:12:19 maybe it's ccache or my cflags
02:12:37 External process exited with code 1. Command was: "ccache gcc" ...
02:12:54 are there iolib users? I was thinking about taking another look at it again tonight, but calling select isn't hard and I already have a halfassed solution I could extend instead.
02:13:29 hefner: i looked at it briefly and found that it took longer to read the docs than do it myself
02:13:35 that error message comes from cffi-grovel
02:13:53 well, at least it has docs. :)
02:17:20 doing CC="gcc" CFLAGS="" seems to help
02:17:32 *hefner* hates writing FFI bindings.
02:18:13 that's pretty strange that it doesn't like ccache
02:19:16 i fetched it to avoid writing FFI for epoll for my hunchentoot frankensteinization (f30n) effort.
02:20:48 hefner: Really? Last time I wrote some FFI bindings I was pleasantly surprised at how easy it was.
02:21:39 i see, it thinks that "ccache gcc" is the name of the file
02:22:37 nyef: define-alien-routine is the easy one. unwrapping a giant struct with union members, bitfields, and layers upon layers of #defined stuff is the not-so-easy bit.
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02:22:52 Okay, yeah, I can see that.
02:23:18 especially when you only use it once, to initialize some library, and then don't care about it
02:23:26 yep
02:24:10 i wrapped the ffmpeg file-format guesser by writing that in C and exporting one function that took a c-string argument. (then found out ffmpeg has detect_format built in ;-)
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02:25:32 here is another pleasant thing http://vx.netlux.org/lib/vrn00.html :-)
02:26:07 similarly, I try to hide xlib and libjpeg behind nice C wrappers, and presently I'm staring down libasound, but someone seems to have already written a "cl-alsa" which might even work
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02:27:11 On that front, I have a libsn76489 which provides a really simple interface for a sound generator emulation that backs onto ALSA.
02:27:42 Really, for the simple stuff, ALSA is trivial.
02:28:14 yeah, once you get past the dubious examples and spotty documentation
02:28:43 Shall I package up my own dubious example for you, then?
02:29:50 I think that's a wonderful idea.
02:31:24 http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/dubious-alsasnd-example.tgz is the heart of my alsa stuff. It's also rather obviously hacked from my old oss stuff.
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02:34:20 There are some failure modes I haven't sorted out yet, but they mainly involve suspend-to-ram and seem to affect most of the other sound programs on my system (notably not including audacious, which manages to clear up such problems), but it basically works.
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02:34:57 Oh, and there's also no latency control, but I don't care so long as it's within a few video frames of correct.
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03:02:19 well, it's ugly, but a prologue-insertion pass shaves 5% on tak (compared to the trampoline).
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03:03:24 Hi
03:03:41 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos
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03:06:41 Where can I get some basic info on lisp?
03:06:46 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos
03:06:50 Other than wikipedia.
03:07:03 minion: tell tseug about pcl
03:07:04 tseug: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
03:07:10 minion: gentle
03:07:10 gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
03:07:28 was minion created with lisp?
03:07:31 yes.
03:07:49 minion tell me about lisp
03:08:03 minion: tell me about lisp
03:08:04 tseug: please look at lisp: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers.
03:08:07 wow
03:08:10 that's a smart bot
03:08:43 Though that book might not be the place you want to start. Though it's a great book.
03:08:55 pcl is where I shoudl start?
03:08:57 minion: are you a bot?
03:08:58 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''.
03:09:05 hah.
03:09:20 tseug: what's your background? Are you already a prorammer, in some other language?
03:09:27 minion: tell tseug about sicp
03:09:27 tseug: direct your attention towards sicp: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available gratis from (HTML), (texinfo) and (XHTML, PDF). Accompanying video lectures are available gratis at
03:09:39 That's a true classic.
03:09:39 I know a tiny bit of Python, Perl. And some Java.
03:10:17 I don't know anything about lisp, except that it's often used for AI
03:10:25 PCL was designed for people who know how to program but who know no Lisp.
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03:10:47 *hefner* thinks SICP is boring, is still waiting for "How to overthrow the government with Common Lisp"
03:10:50 I hear most "AI" is done in C++ or python these days.
03:10:55 SICP is a take on basic computer science through a Scheme (a Lisp dialect) perspective.
03:11:05 If you were interested in AI in particular you migt look at: PAIP
03:11:08 minion: PAIP
03:11:08 PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/PAIP
03:11:13 But, minion seems a lot smarter than other bots I've seen
03:11:23 pkhuong: I thought it was Java.
03:12:15 *fusss* wins another online argument!
03:12:26 gigamonkey: maybe they replaced the "scripting" part with python instead of java.
03:13:33 minion help
03:13:37 minion: help
03:13:38 There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms".
03:13:38 minion shouldn't recommend LiSP to newbs, imo
03:13:54 tseug: you can also /msg minion
03:14:49 PAIP, fine book that it is, actually put me off buying AIMA for years, which was a terrible shame, because AIMA is a really good book.
03:15:28 [22:15] Would you /please/ stop playing with me? 3 messages in 9 seconds is too many.
03:16:36 yuck. The loop alignment code doesn't play well with fall-through.
03:16:39 hefner: AIMA puts me to sleep.
03:17:33 who's krystof
03:18:10 an op.
03:18:52 AIMA is great
03:18:53 And a SBCL hacker. And a dad. He contains multitudes.
03:19:52 AIMA was badly beyond me the first time I tried to read it, but I suspect I might make a better go of it next time.
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03:20:20 However, the agent model generally doesn't cover one huge important thing: Writing a consistent 'world' model that the agents interact in
03:20:41 that's a lot harder than the agent code, depending on the problem at hand
03:21:22 gigamonkey: he is a dad now? they grow so fast ;-)
03:21:29 all the world is a grid. discrete, markovian, and episodic.
03:21:45 that's the sensor state
03:21:51 not necessarily the world data nature
03:22:01 I won't listen to these lies.
03:22:08 *fusss* awaits another AI nerd vague-vention
03:22:11 especially when you're not talking about spatial worlds
03:22:16 fusss: as far as I know.
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03:25:10 Okay, I'm going to sign off and go to bed before it gets any later.
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03:25:21 What's the difference between Lisp and Common Lisp?
03:25:47 Lisp is a category of languages. Common Lisp is one specific language within that category
03:26:02 hmm.
03:26:07 and cue the semantics flamefest :-P
03:27:31 Just trying to learn more about Lisp
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03:28:32 What are some of the types of Lisp? Common and..?
03:29:35 uncommon
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03:29:52 Scheme is another lisp
03:30:14 those are afaik the only 2 major lisps out there
03:30:23 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp
03:30:25 there's Common Lisp, Scheme, the newcomer Clojure, the oddball Newlisp (which was dropped on its head as an infant), and then dozens of forgotten or fringe dialects no one really uses
03:30:42 so Common is the most common?
03:30:48 and lisp scripting languages inside other apps
03:32:25 is lisp and emacs fairly similar?
03:32:30 you could also there's also "university lisp", a random subset of common lisp taught in programming languages courses
03:32:39 oh, I forgot about emacs lisp.
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03:35:23 CL and emacs lisp are similar in that if you know one, you can pick the other up pretty quickly, but different enough that you can't really port code between them
03:35:24 UPPERCASE LISP. usually found in AI books.
03:35:29 heh, nice
03:37:03 I want to make my own bot like 'minion'. But I have no knowledge about bots (I'm guessing they're made with a bunch of "if/than" statements) is there a good "how to make a bot" book that I can find online?
03:37:47 Another problem is, how do I bring the bot into an IRC room?
03:37:54 that's your biggest issue
03:38:06 I'll tell you, provided you promise not to bring it here :)
03:38:06 once you connect inputs & outputs to a "bot", the rest is easy
03:38:12 I promise!
03:38:19 minion: tell tseug about cl-irc
03:38:20 tseug: look at cl-irc: cl-irc is an IRC networking library written in Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/cl-irc
03:38:36 there's bot examples in there
03:38:41 Thanks
03:40:40 No idea what to do with that file.. but I should learn Lisp first before trying to make a bot for IRC..
03:40:50 I've never been able to shake the desire to write a chatterbot out of my head.
03:43:24 I'm reading the page that gigamonkey gave me. Can someone explain this quote to me: Perl is also worth learning as "the duct tape of the Internet."
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03:43:46 Why is Perl the "duct tape of the internet"?
03:46:08 tseug: Mark Watson wrote a "how to write a bot book", around 1993 IIRC. It's in pre-standardized C++; i typed in the examples and none of them ran. Good news is, Watson also wrote various AI books, lately ebooks, and he is a die-hard Lisper. So you might find something of his.
03:47:08 wait, a book on writing books about writing bots?
03:47:18 ><
03:47:20 a book on writing bots
03:47:39 so the book is not in C++, but Lisp?
03:47:59 that's why it didn't run?
03:48:01 none of the examples ran?!
03:48:50 tseug: Practical Artificial Intelligence Programming by Peter Norvig has a chapter on an Eliza chat-bot; take that and read the specs for IRC and the manual for your Lisp's socket programming (most likely Bordeux-threads)
03:49:34 Thanks
03:49:35 tseug: they were for Turbo C++ 3, IIRC, and I only had Borland C++ 4.5; and I wasn't a very good programmer at the time (or even now ;-)
03:49:43 minion: cl-irc
03:49:45 cl-irc: cl-irc is an IRC networking library written in Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/cl-irc
03:50:11 that should allow you to annoy the channel until Krystof comes back
03:50:26 (with your new bots, not your self ;-)
03:51:58 speaking of AI, I'm impressed that cl-alsa manages to work in the General Problem Solver, apparently to order the steps in configuring ALSA
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03:52:19 fusss you mean this book, right: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp
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03:52:48 tseug: start here, another Watson book that should hold your hand til you can find Paul Graham's ANSI Common Lisp: http://www.markwatson.com/opencontent/lisp_lic.htm
03:53:07 tseug: yes, that one. popularly referred to as "PAIP"
03:53:55 minion: PCL
03:53:56 PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
03:54:03 hefner: GPS for alsa config? shame, wasn't it invented to configure multimillion dollar vax installations? :-P
03:54:43 *fusss* I got your audio card working, also, the data-center is done.
03:55:12 I think GPS dates from the 50s, predating the VAX by decades
03:55:53 oh yeah
03:56:25 there was an AI technique invented to configure machines for DEC
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03:59:01 tseug: life will be a whole lot easier if you learned some systems programming on the side as well. specially sockets. and speaking of which, the Watson book i just linked to has a chapter on socket programming :-)
04:01:20 nite
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04:02:20 hi everybody!
04:02:25 good night
04:02:49 whats the difference between defvar and setq ?
04:03:10 one introduces a special variable, the other sets the value of an existing special (respectively).
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04:04:56 but with both you can create variables and start them with a value, doest it?
04:05:18 no. setq only sets the value of a variable (special or not, actually).
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04:05:51 pkhuong, ok, thanks man!
04:06:03 Using SETQ on a variable that hasn't previously been introduced is an error; the consequences are implementation dependent.
04:07:13 it's a very convenient error at the toplevel; having to type defparameter all the time is a drag.
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04:10:55 in case I haven't said anything nice about slime lately, the current(ish) state of its macroexpansion capabilities are very cool
04:12:30 to balance the karma, I'll say that the currentish state of slime doesn't support xemacs so well
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04:13:10 I gave up using xemacs because slime never worked great on it (even in the 2004-2005 timeframe)
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04:23:55 *Fare* is looking for pre-alpha testers / advisers for the new xcvb
04:24:17 to discuss what the user interface of it should look like
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04:25:34 Wheee! I might learn enough TeX to save my book from being typeset in Word!
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04:26:28 gigamonkey, no extension to cl-typesetting?
04:26:40 Fare: Sadly, I don't have time for that.
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04:27:08 or generating of TeX from DefDoc or some such
04:27:19 (I wouldn't be against a TeX backend to Exscribe, either)
04:27:34 Well, I've got a TeX backend for my own Markup thingy.
04:27:50 (directory) doesn't seem to be returning symlinks. is that intentional?
04:27:51 I just need to figure out exactly what TeX I need to produce to generate camera-ready output.
04:28:13 Qsource: (directory) is resolving them to what they point to, because it hates you.
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04:28:43 hefner: ugh. is there something that doesn't hate me?
04:28:50 gigamonkey, use pdflatex if you can
04:29:12 I'm looking at Xetex since it can easily handle arbitrary fonts and UTF-8 encoded docs.
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04:29:35 relevant to the conversation above--in CL, i constantly have to implement slightly different versions of very common functions, which would be extremely annoying if i was trying to write many standalone programs instead of a large/integrated application
04:30:16 Qsource, welcome to my world
04:30:30 Qsource, use PLT scheme instead :-/
04:30:31 practice makes perfect ;)
04:31:04 Qsource: can you give an example?
04:31:37 Fare: why do you recomend pdflatex?
04:32:19 over the dvi variants? because it's resolution independent
04:32:41 so you won't get ugly things with mismatched resolution like Let-Over-Lambda
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04:33:56 hefner: an example of what? i have many generic functions and macros that i like using, and pasing or loading them into scripts make it hard(er) to write those "scripts". i'm specifically comparing this experience to python, which is very convenient for small/medium-ish programs and cumbersome for larger ones. CL great for larger ones and cumbersome for smaller ones.
04:33:59 unless of course you actually control the print process down to the final stage and know what resolution the printer is
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04:34:13 (at the scaling that is actually used for the text)
04:34:15 Ah. So it looks like XeteX is built on top of pdftex (and generates PDF directly). I'm guessing maybe pdflatex is also built on top of pdftex
04:34:21 *pasting
04:34:31 Qsource: I was assuming there was a better reason you had to write different versions aside from a lack of coordination
04:34:33 *gigamonkey* is lost in a maze of twisty TeX-like-things all different.
04:35:38 hefner: well, apparently now i have to write my own listdir. not the end of the world--it's already written and working--but it makes it that much harder to write a script-ish program
04:35:45