User: TomWij
Reason: Too many counts of flaming, concern-trolling, gish gallop troll posts, and repeated harassment of individual board members by abusive reporting to list individually. Consider this a request for more formal action to be taken regarding his persistent underhanded and toxic behaviour on these forums.

User: TomWij
Reason: Too many counts of flaming, concern-trolling, gish gallop troll posts, and repeated harassment of individual board members by abusive reporting to list individually. Consider this a request for more formal action to be taken regarding his persistent underhanded and toxic behaviour on these forums.

Reporting is a normal matter to restore the topic of a forum thread; it is to ensure that posts that are not on the topic do not continue, as their off-topic discussion could possibly bother other users.

Can you provide me references to those posts you mentioned? How are they harassment, underhanded or toxic?

I am only participating on the forums to aid users; so, I would never make posts of such types...

Last edited by TomWij on Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

@saellaven, can't you see the issue of portage performance is important to be discussed?

I didn't bring systemd into the thread, MarekSieradzki did and I simply followed up to his claim that "I find it weird that some people whine when they see hugely integrated stuff like systemd but don't do that when Portage behaves the same way." I did so in a way where I talked about the subject of the thread - portage becoming more bloated.

Any reason why you have a problem with my post specially, and not his, taking the time to report me even though my post was in reply to his?

User: ulenrich
Topic: Why has portage become so slow
Post: post 7427946
Reason: Trolling, particularly since he falsely reported me for trolling in that thread (and admits that he was wrong here before going on to post this), so he's aware of the consequences of trolling. How is this post constructive? It further leads to Tom's post (and I'll hold him to a higher standard than greydot since he's a dev)

I've NEVER complained about the other posters on the forums in the 7 years I've been registered here. The Council to voted the way these guys wanted and rather than be satisfied or simply defend the decision they got on the technical merits, they seek to aggravate those of us that are trying to be productive but disagree with them. They've resorted to reporting, taunting, redefining words and then arrogantly laugh as if they're somehow smarter, etc in an effort to distract from the numerous points where I and others have made where we believe they are wrong on the merits. I'd like to see TomWij referred to comrel, given his status as a developer.

What do you mean by trolling? Why is it that? How does it seek to inflame?

saellaven wrote:

The Council to voted the way these guys wanted and rather than be satisfied or simply defend the decision they got on the technical merits, they seek to aggravate those of us that are trying to be productive but disagree with them.

How? That does not appear to match our participance in the thread, can you please highlight why you think it to be that way.

saellaven wrote:

They've resorted to reporting

Hmm? Quite a normal action to restore the topic as well as when forum rules are void.

saellaven wrote:

Taunting

Where?

saellaven wrote:

Redefining words

How? I've asked definitions of words; that does not mean redefining them, and as you can note words can indeed carry different meanings. It is not so much about redefining them, but rather about understanding what they mean in their context.

saellaven wrote:

arrogantly laugh as if they're somehow smarter,

Excuse me? Where? How?

saellaven wrote:

etc in an effort to distract from the numerous points where I and others have made where we believe they are wrong on the merits.

Huh? Action does not go without reaction; if you state I am wrong, I will respectfully disagree with that.

saellaven wrote:

I'd like to see TomWij referred to comrel, given his status as a developer.

Why? I do however not see how I disrespectfully disagreed. See for reference:

User: ulenrich
Topic: Why has portage become so slow
Post: post 7427946
Reason: Trolling, particularly since he falsely reported me for trolling in that thread (and admits that he was wrong here before going on to post this), so he's aware of the consequences of trolling. How is this post constructive?

I pointed out that claiming: "Gentoo is all about choice" and at the same time
accusing to ruin Gentoo everybody who is supporting Systemd as a choice
is a logical contradiction.
To argue from a logical point of view is it trolling?

And
@saellaven, I reported you off topic not trolling._________________fun2gen2

Like mentioned before, I'm here to help, learn and listen to users and have an occasional chat; if I weren't, I wouldn't even browse to this website...

I believed that at first, but I no longer do, particularly given the post that I referenced.

You gave us spin for days, acting as though you had some genuine interest in hearing our concerns, only to keep redefining things just to keep stringing us along, only to basically say you're not on the systemd team, so you can't really do anything to help anyway.

TomWij wrote:

ulenrich wrote:

It is the most important rule of Redhat-Poettering conspiration theory:

Code:

Gentoo is about choice. Supporting Systemd destroys Gentoo.

You cannot argue about that. If you tried the last pages of this thread, it is blown in the wind.

This is the kind of the type of rule that is made to be broken; there is no need to argue it, as people supporting systemd consistently break that rule.

ulenrich wrote:

The only method would be to create an anti-conspiration-conspiration-theory: Google has paid some guys for red-herring purpose. Exactly what is told about Redhat is the case with Googles Android platform.

where are you being constructive in there? You're flat out mocking my comment that I believe the changes being forced on Gentoo by the systemd supporters ruins the very spirit that Gentoo is about choice, given systemd is entirely about force.

ulenrich wrote:

saellaven wrote:

User: ulenrich
Topic: Why has portage become so slow
Post: post 7427946
Reason: Trolling, particularly since he falsely reported me for trolling in that thread (and admits that he was wrong here before going on to post this), so he's aware of the consequences of trolling. How is this post constructive?

I pointed out that claiming: "Gentoo is all about choice" and at the same time
accusing to ruin Gentoo everybody who is supporting Systemd as a choice
is a logical contradiction.
To argue from a logical point of view is it trolling?

ulenrich wrote:

TomWij wrote:

_______0 wrote:

this the asshls responsible of destroying gentoo?

Code:

Michał Górny mgorny Lead
Robert Piasek dagger Member
Mike Gilbert floppym Member
Fabio Erculiani lxnay Member
Pacho Ramos pacho Member
William Hubbs williamh Member

but how can this be?

How did they?

@TomWij
It is the most important rule of Redhat-Poettering conspiration theory:

Code:

Gentoo is about choice. Supporting Systemd destroys Gentoo.

You cannot argue about that. If you tried the last pages of this thread, it is blown in the wind.

The only method would be to create an anti-conspiration-conspiration-theory: Google has paid some guys for red-herring purpose. Exactly what is told about Redhat is the case with Googles Android platform.

Where are you arguing from logic? You're accusing us of a conspiracy theory, trying to paint us as kooks, while also calling us google shills, because we don't support the Poetteringification of Gentoo. You're flat out trolling because we support a different position for you for technical reasons that you don't care about.

Given that the choices being forced onto us BECAUSE of systemd (and there's no arguing that, williamh used it as his primary rationale in his presentation to the Council - a presentation which specifically excluded the trivial patches that SteveL created that solves the problem without harming people's systems despite knowing about them), choices where the Council has decided to intentionally break our systems, do you really think it's a positive thing to try to exacerbate our frustrations? You support systemd and that's fine. At no point have any of us in the separate /usr without initramfs camp said that we think Gentoo shouldn't have a systemd option, but you are hell bent on forcing systemd onto all of us because you like it and you've spent most of the last year complaining about anyone that doesn't think systemd is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

I don't normally bite on these, but I have to here. Systemd is not being forced upon us. Systemd is being discussed in this matter because Pacho Ramos as a maintainer of GNOME 3.x decided to make systemd mandatory, not because he wanted to but because that is the direction the GNOME Developers chose to take, because most of the GNOME developers use a system where systemd is the default init system.

If you don't want or don't like systemd, use stable gnome 2.x ore KDE 4. Just because Gentoo is about choice doesn't mean we wont be asked to adopt or follow new standards. Not being able to adapt to change is what causes these types of arguments. Are we supposed to punish the GNOME developers or resort to name calling like we have here just because they used the same freedom of choice in choosing Ubuntu or Fedora as their development platform _________________The Birth and Growth of Science is the Death and Atrophy of Art -- Unknown
Registerd Linux User #363735Adopt a Post | Strip Comments| Emerge Wrapper

You gave us spin for days, acting as though you had some genuine interest in hearing our concerns, only to keep redefining things just to keep stringing us along, only to basically say you're not on the systemd team, so you can't really do anything to help anyway.

Providing support to answer and clarify your concerns as well as discussing systemd has no implication that I am part of any team; since persons viewed me as such, I had to explicitly state the opposite. You can also see this as not wanting to have this developer badge attached to my name for that entire thread.

saellaven wrote:

where are you being constructive in there? You're flat out mocking my comment that I believe the changes being forced on Gentoo by the systemd supporters ruins the very spirit that Gentoo is about choice, given systemd is entirely about force.

That comment was made by ulenrich, I have reflected his claims by claims that reflect Gentoo's philosophy and it does not mean to address you or your writing in any way; so, this is in essence constructive in its context. Assume good faith.

saellaven wrote:

ulenrich wrote:

If I read correctly the rest of your post doesn't at all address me; however, I have plans to close the gap between Gentoo users and developers, because that's one of the main concerns I heard from that entire thread that is quite important to be made more communicative in the near future.

eyoung100 wrote:

I don't normally bite on these, but I have to here.

If you do, please keep responses to a minimal length; I'm not saying your post is wrong, but this reporting topic should only be restricted to reports and short clarifying responses to it. If people want to give further replies, I invite them to do so in private or another topic; this topic has grown already long enough as it is, based on some conflicts that in my opinion are mostly misunderstandings from both sides.

I don't normally bite on these, but I have to here. Systemd is not being forced upon us. Systemd is being discussed in this matter because Pacho Ramos as a maintainer of GNOME 3.x decided to make systemd mandatory, not because he wanted to but because that is the direction the GNOME Developers chose to take, because most of the GNOME developers use a system where systemd is the default init system.

If you don't want or don't like systemd, use stable gnome 2.x ore KDE 4. Just because Gentoo is about choice doesn't mean we wont be asked to adopt or follow new standards. Not being able to adapt to change is what causes these types of arguments. Are we supposed to punish the GNOME developers or resort to name calling like we have here just because they used the same freedom of choice in choosing Ubuntu or Fedora as their development platform

This discussion doesn't belong in this thread.

That said, it isn't about gnome being married to systemd, it's about Gentoo deprecating long existing functionality to placate systemd to please a subset of users.

It's very much about removing choice. That said, if you want to discuss it, I suggest we start a thread outside of this one.

You gave us spin for days, acting as though you had some genuine interest in hearing our concerns, only to keep redefining things just to keep stringing us along, only to basically say you're not on the systemd team, so you can't really do anything to help anyway.

Providing support to answer and clarify your concerns as well as discussing systemd has no implication that I am part of any team; since persons viewed me as such, I had to explicitly state the opposite. You can also see this as not wanting to have this developer badge attached to my name for that entire thread.

You provided no support and you answered no questions. You intentionally ran us around in circles and, I believe, acted in a dishonest manner. You may not believe so, but, IMO, you have acted like a troll.

TomWij wrote:

saellaven wrote:

where are you being constructive in there? You're flat out mocking my comment that I believe the changes being forced on Gentoo by the systemd supporters ruins the very spirit that Gentoo is about choice, given systemd is entirely about force.

That comment was made by ulenrich, I have reflected his claims by claims that reflect Gentoo's philosophy and it does not mean to address you or your writing in any way; so, this is in essence constructive in its context. Assume good faith.

I originally assumed good faith with you, but you managed to prove yourself otherwise between the constant redefinitions, circular arguments and mockery. You managed to lose all the respect I had for you.

TomWij wrote:

If I read correctly the rest of your post doesn't at all address me; however, I have plans to close the gap between Gentoo users and developers, because that's one of the main concerns I heard from that entire thread that is quite important to be made more communicative in the near future.

Congratulations, you managed to do the opposite. You planted a stake firmly in the ground and refuse to even take us seriously, playing word games instead. You could have been helpful, instead, I've reached the point where, in part because of you, I've become completely disillusioned with the Gentoo devs and Council.

I intend to confront the Council directly asking them to defend their decision and, in particular, williamh's decision to withhold pertinent information from the rest of the Council. As for you, I have nothing left to say to you. You've trolled me long enough and I'll take things up with ComRel myself i I don't hear anything from them soon. However, I'm stepping away from the discussion for a couple days to cool off first. This will be my last post regarding this here and my last post ever in reply to you (consider yourself ignored since that's what your trolling has earned you).

You provided no support and you answered no questions. You intentionally ran us around in circles and, I believe, acted in a dishonest manner. You may not believe so, but, IMO, you have acted like a troll.

...

I originally assumed good faith with you, but you managed to prove yourself otherwise between the constant redefinitions, circular arguments and mockery. You managed to lose all the respect I had for you.

...

Congratulations, you managed to do the opposite. You planted a stake firmly in the ground and refuse to even take us seriously, playing word games instead. You could have been helpful, instead, I've reached the point where, in part because of you, I've become completely disillusioned with the Gentoo devs and Council.

I intend to confront the Council directly asking them to defend their decision and, in particular, williamh's decision to withhold pertinent information from the rest of the Council. As for you, I have nothing left to say to you. You've trolled me long enough and I'll take things up with ComRel myself i I don't hear anything from them soon. However, I'm stepping away from the discussion for a couple days to cool off first. This will be my last post regarding this here and my last post ever in reply to you (consider yourself ignored since that's what your trolling has earned you).

Clarification is support, posts can also receive answers; the thread ran in circles because clarifications, facts or references in reply to my questions were absent. Those last back-up elements I mentioned are crucial to a constructive discussion; it is the key to respectfully agree with one another, per Paul Graham. Asking to have things clarified is in no way trolling, it only becomes that way if you assume it is provocative which based on your stance can by accident be made. But as I verbosely clarify to you here it is intended to be for the sake of a constructive discussion as well as respect any of the times I've asked for such back-up elements; it's a matter of that I want to understand the person I talk to better, in order to better being able to converse to that person. If you don't let me, don't expect it either.

Multiple times I have asked for things to be defined, backed up with facts and references and get back on topic; that makes it everything but a constant redefinition (because I ask for them, I am not redefining them; it would be a redefinition if I accidentally made a wrong assumption), circular arguments (if I ask for clarification to proceed; then, I want exactly the opposite of it becoming circular) and mockery (where? why? how does it fit in with wanting to understand what is said and have a conversation about systemd?). I'm not here to gain or lose respect, I'm not here to gain or lose fame, I don't even want this badge next to me if it carries much more assumptions along with what it reflects. Consider what I am here for instead; to listen, talk to and help users and close the gap of developers walking past users...

What I managed is what you perceived and what you make of it; I've been trying to be helpful, but it ends up with everything but what I want to achieve. I now have the perception that what I am here for and have done is all for nothing; that at the end of all of it, people carrying badges can't have their opinion and have to just do the work to please everyone whom wants something to be different even though those groups of users have goals that do not match with one another or with what Gentoo can do. Well, I'm very close to just leaving the Gentoo Forums if this is the only way I get perceived, understood as well as treated with whenever I walk into a discussion. All my efforts being a waste of time; one last thing I have learned from Gentoo's relations, is that ignorance is really not the way to resolve things, so, this is your last invite to step up and talk to me about it, because you will definitely want to reach something else than what you would unintentionally accomplish...

you didn't try to understand our position, you came to defend the position of the systemd supporters desire to remove existing functionality from the systems. At no point did you acknowledge the two years worth of posts we've had here, pretending they didn't exist, you duplicitously left out certain information, shifted goalposts and simply did everything you could to not understand us. Whether that was your intent or not, that was the effect of your actions.

And it's not just SteveL (whom thinks you aren't a troll, just misguided) and I that saw it as trolling, I've gotten messages privately the last two days from several users that have become too frustrated with your tactics to bother having any discussions with you. I know your first instinct will be to blame us, but perhaps you should look in the mirror. You haven't even made a pseudo-apology saying "I'm sorry if you felt that I came off in a manner I didn't mean to, I was simply trying to help..." While you claim that we are driving you away from participating with the Gentoo community, the fact is, YOU (and several other devs, of which I'll name ssuominen in particular, for his anti-eudev attacks) are not only driving users away from communicating with the Gentoo devs, but from seeking to become Gentoo devs and helping out.

This mentality, which I saw within weeks of installing Gentoo and I believe it starts with the Council, that Gentoo is solely by and for the devs and everyone else will just have to eat the dogfood and be grateful, is harmful to the community. The two biggest problems in Gentoo are ego (such as the claim that you carry a badge and thus, are somehow special and above everyone else or that your opinion should matter more and, if we act like it don't, woe is you) and the separation of the devs from the community at large (a simple search on the forums would have yielded SteveL's patch to fix the broken /usr behavior, williamh's knowledge of it, the numerous posts on the fragility of initramfs, etc, but the Council couldn't be bothered and most Gentoo devs stick to their own mailing lists and bugzilla, rarely interacting with users when there isn't a bug report).

And as far as feigning ignorance goes, go read the threads on a separate /usr, initramfs, persistent networking not being persistent, etc. How many times do you want us to rehash the same old arguments while you repeat the same old reasoning that we've already disproved? There is nothing left for you and I to talk about until you inform yourself first instead of trying to claim a position of authority while being wilfully ignorant. That ignorance compounded with your ego is the source of your "misunderstandings" and why so many people see you as a troll even if you think you're being helpful.

you didn't try to understand our position, you came to defend the position of the systemd supporters desire to remove existing functionality from the systems.

Why do I need to understand the "position"; I am not participating in that thread to take sides, mentioned that it is different from OpenRC does not mean that I consider it better. There is no one size fits all...

There is a difference between "clarify" and "defend"; I forwarded the "reason" based on which they did so to you, that does however not mean that I stand behind it.

saellaven wrote:

At no point did you acknowledge the two years worth of posts we've had here, pretending they didn't exist, you duplicitously left out certain information, shifted goalposts and simply did everything you could to not understand us. Whether that was your intent or not, that was the effect of your actions.

As a new developer, I do not know of that history; I can thus not pretend anything about its existence. Please elaborate on what information was left out and how asking for clarification is not trying to understand you.

saellaven wrote:

And it's not just SteveL (whom thinks you aren't a troll, just misguided) and I that saw it as trolling, I've gotten messages privately the last two days from several users that have become too frustrated with your tactics to bother having any discussions with you. I know your first instinct will be to blame us, but perhaps you should look in the mirror. You haven't even made a pseudo-apology saying "I'm sorry if you felt that I came off in a manner I didn't mean to, I was simply trying to help..." While you claim that we are driving you away from participating with the Gentoo community, the fact is, YOU (and several other devs, of which I'll name ssuominen in particular, for his anti-eudev attacks) are not only driving users away from communicating with the Gentoo devs, but from seeking to become Gentoo devs and helping out.

This mentality, which I saw within weeks of installing Gentoo and I believe it starts with the Council, that Gentoo is solely by and for the devs and everyone else will just have to eat the dogfood and be grateful, is harmful to the community. The two biggest problems in Gentoo are ego (such as the claim that you carry a badge and thus, are somehow special and above everyone else or that your opinion should matter more and, if we act like it don't, woe is you) and the separation of the devs from the community at large (a simple search on the forums would have yielded SteveL's patch to fix the broken /usr behavior, williamh's knowledge of it, the numerous posts on the fragility of initramfs, etc, but the Council couldn't be bothered and most Gentoo devs stick to their own mailing lists and bugzilla, rarely interacting with users when there isn't a bug report).

And as far as feigning ignorance goes, go read the threads on a separate /usr, initramfs, persistent networking not being persistent, etc. How many times do you want us to rehash the same old arguments while you repeat the same old reasoning that we've already disproved? There is nothing left for you and I to talk about until you inform yourself first instead of trying to claim a position of authority while being wilfully ignorant. That ignorance compounded with your ego is the source of your "misunderstandings" and why so many people see you as a troll even if you think you're being helpful.

Your and others concerns regarding the gap will be addressed.

I can't be sorry for things I did not do, I am however sorry if I upset you in whichever way; since this is a reply that's full of assumptions of bad faith and inverted statements, I will no further reply as it does not address me...

you didn't try to understand our position, you came to defend the position of the systemd supporters desire to remove existing functionality from the systems.

Why do I need to understand the "position"; I am not participating in that thread to take sides, mentioned that it is different from OpenRC does not mean that I consider it better. There is no one size fits all...

There is a difference between "clarify" and "defend"; I forwarded the "reason" based on which they did so to you, that does however not mean I stand behind it.

See, this is exactly what I mean... if you are going to participate in a thread, you need to understand the positions of the people you're replying to. And because you have absolute no desire to understand our positions, you aren't helping to clarify anything. You are merely parroting the opposite position which we've been rehashing for months, in turn, causing even more frustration.

Sometimes, the best thing to do is to simply shut your mouth, especially if you don't care what the other side is saying.

Quote:

saellaven wrote:

At no point did you acknowledge the two years worth of posts we've had here, pretending they didn't exist, you duplicitously left out certain information, shifted goalposts and simply did everything you could to not understand us. Whether that was your intent or not, that was the effect of your actions.

As a new developer, I do not know of that history; I can thus not pretend anything about its existence. Please elaborate on what information was left out and how asking for clarification is not trying to understand you.

Then inform yourself and quit asking us to rehash the same things we've already rehashed a half dozen times or more. Quit acting like we're the ones being obtuse when you are only professing your own ignorance since it absolutely stinks of trolling.

Quote:

Your and others concerns regarding the gap will be addressed.

I can't be sorry for things I did not do; if I receive a reply that's full of assumptions of bad faith that do not reflect my contributions, then I'm very sorry for having tried to be there for you.

You didn't try to be there for us, as you've just admitted by saying you don't need to understand our positions. How can you be helpful if you don't even listen? Isn't that exactly what I previously complained about in that thread, with regards to devs NOT listening to user's concerns and arrogantly brushing us off? You didn't try to be there for us, you tried to be there for you, for your ego, so you can feel important. In the process, you've exposed your own ignorance, riled up a lot of hard feelings and reflected negatively upon yourself.

I'm imposing a 2 day ban on myself from replying to anything else on the forum from this point forward, before your agitation causes harm to my own position by getting me to say something rash (as much as I'm glad to debate the technical merits of my position, I do not want any emotional baggage to cause them to be dismissed). Likewise, it would be wise for you shut up for a day or two and think about why your presentation turns people off, having the exact opposite effect of your intent, because you're being harmful, not helpful, to your cause.