If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Organizational approach to OBP needs to change?

I don't have the numbers right in front of me, but I heard Lance McAlister talking about this subject one day and wanted to bring it up then but I was busy.

The discussion started about Stubbs and proceeded to the OBP numbers of the Reds minor league teams, and they weren't good. I think nearly all of the teams finished near the bottom of their leagues in OBP.

Frankly, I think there needs to be more of an emphasis on plate discipline, taking walks, and also on bunting. I have no way of knowing what is going on in the farm system, and what their agenda and goals are. But this does need to be addressed. Other than Votto, it does seem like we have a bunch of free swingers, with poor baseball IQ's and poor plate discipline at times.

"I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

"Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

Re: Organizational approach to OBP needs to change?

I wonder if it is really an organized "approach" or the fact that emphasis has shifted very fast from hitting to pitching and defense. Meanwhile offense, rather for lack of focus while such a huge organizational shift took place, suffered due to prospect quality as much as hitting philosophy. Change picks to hitters the past couple seasons in reverse numbers and quantity and the systems hitting might look more exciting. Still, Winker and a couple like Seth-Brean and Wright look to perhaps start a more balanced system in the future. Personally I think recharging the system with pitchers and solid defenders caused the hitting skills to take a discounted place in the selections. Not easy to go from pitching trash to pitching riches in a farm as rapidly as the Reds have.

Re: Organizational approach to OBP needs to change?

I don't know if I buy that.

I think it has to more to do with the individual players than it does with an organizational approach. Take Stubbs for example. He actually showed very good plate discipline in the minors and posted high OBPs. His problem has been that he can't make contact against major league pitchers. He still takes a fair amount of walks, but it's nowhere near enough to make up for his awful contact skills.

As far as looking at minor league team numbers goes, it is a pretty useless exercise. There are so many 'organizational players' floating around in the minors and muddying up the numbers that they become meaningless. For example, a grand total of ONE of the eleven guys who got more than 250 PAs for the Louisville Bats was 25 or under. Outside of Neftali Soto, none of those guys are ever likely to see an extended period on a major league roster. The only thing that matters is Soto's numbers. The rest is just useless filler.

Re: Organizational approach to OBP needs to change?

Originally Posted by Steve4192

As far as looking at minor league team numbers goes, it is a pretty useless exercise. There are so many 'organizational players' floating around in the minors and muddying up the numbers that they become meaningless. For example, a grand total of ONE of the eleven guys who got more than 250 PAs for the Louisville Bats was 25 or under. Outside of Neftali Soto, none of those guys are ever likely to see an extended period on a major league roster. The only thing that matters is Soto's numbers. The rest is just useless filler.

Yea any kind of organizational cross section means next to nothing IMO. On top of that, I don't think OBP and plate discipline are all that teachable honestly. You can ask every kid to be like Votto, but telling someone to wait on their pitch is futile advice if they can't identify said pitch and react to it. Some hitters just can't.

Re: Organizational approach to OBP needs to change?

Originally Posted by Superdude

Yea any kind of organizational cross section means next to nothing IMO. On top of that, I don't think OBP and plate discipline are all that teachable honestly. You can ask every kid to be like Votto, but telling someone to wait on their pitch is futile advice if they can't identify said pitch and react to it. Some hitters just can't.

I think that the first team who can truly find a way to improve a majority of hitters ability to do this will have a huge advantage over everyone else. There must be a way to do it, we just aren't sure how to yet.

Re: Organizational approach to OBP needs to change?

Originally Posted by Steve4192

I don't know if I buy that.
Take Stubbs for example. He actually showed very good plate discipline in the minors and posted high OBPs. His problem has been that he can't make contact against major league pitchers. He still takes a fair amount of walks, but it's nowhere near enough to make up for his awful contact skills.

I agree, and I'd go further to say that Stubbs wasn't dominant at any level of the minors except his short stint at AA, and would have benefited from an entire extra year at AAA. Yes, you see a lot of journeyman there, but some of those journeyman throw breaking stuff. I would have liked to have seen him go into the majors after kicking ass rather than simply having a .360+ OBP and stealing bases against inferior competition.

". . . acquiring J. Blanton from Oakland for, apparently, Bailey/Cueto, Votto and a lesser prospect. I do it in a second . . . The Reds' equation this year is simple: Make Matt Belisle your #3 starter . . . trade for Blanton, win 85 or more, be in the mix all summer." - Paul Daugherty, Feb. 8, 2008

Re: Organizational approach to OBP needs to change?

It was no accident the Reds drafted Winker in the early rounds this year. I believe it was in recognition that the team needs more prospects with high OBP skills.

The best way to deal with this situation is to emphasize these skills in drafting players. Based on the last draft, I think the Reds are starting to do that.

Agree 100% with the bolded part.

Not so sure I agree that the drafting of Winker indicates a sea change in how the Reds evaluate prospects. They also drafted plenty of toolsy guys who lack selectivity at the plate. Winker could just be a outlier, kind of like how Joey Votto was an outlier compared to other Jim Bowden draftees.

Re: Organizational approach to OBP needs to change?

In the past, they've certainly prioritized athleticism over skills. And I think the system reflects that. But I don't know if it's a critique of Jocketty per se' as guys like Stubbs and Cozart weren't his and his acquisitions of guys for significant playing time weren't exactly anti-OBP. (save for Wilson Valdez)

There's definitely a problem with OBP on the major league roster and the way Dusty makes up his lineups, but it's not like he's got a ton to work with.

Last edited by RedsManRick; 12-02-2012 at 05:58 PM.

Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

Re: Organizational approach to OBP needs to change?

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

In the past, they've certainly prioritized athleticism over skills. And I think the system reflects that. But I don't know if it's a critique of Jocketty per se' as guys like Stubbs and Cozart weren't his and his acquisitions of guys for significant playing time weren't exactly anti-OBP. (save for Wilson Valdez)

There's definitely a problem with OBP on the major league roster and the way Dusty makes up his lineups, but it's not like he's got a ton to work with.

I think we have to look at where we came from. We had a team with no pitching and defensive nightmares at nearly every position. Griffey, Dunn, Encarnacion, Keppinger/Hairston, Javy, David Ross, Paul Bako. It was pretty obvious that some defensive players and arms were needed. The Reds had a lot of picks in the top 100 but chose guys like Stubbs, Leake, Joseph, Boxberger Stewart, Cingrani, Cozart, Lamarre, Brodie Greene, Devin Lohman, Stephenson, Travieso to address the deficiencies. They got some hitters too though. Valaika didn't work out, but Frazier holds his own where OBP is concerned and Mesoraco showed the skills in the minors. Grandal and Alonso were both good OBP guys but were dealt for Latos. Winker looks pretty good. I just think its the cycle that teams go through as they address their needs.

"All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most
importantly, enjoy yourselves!

RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball