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Topic: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza (Read 41404 times)

I have cultured many yeasts in my starter flask before. I have tried them wet/active and wet/inactive. I did this by lightly boiling the starter after log phase and straining out the cells. IMO there is no noticeable improvement in flavor by adding more "dead" wet yeast. After a series of these "fresh yeast" experiments, I came to conclude THAT SMELL does not come from the actual yeast cells, but is a byproduct of the fermentation process (Or a some "additive" other than yeast cells). Reason I say this is I can get much more malty flavor using beer (fermentation products) rather than adding more yeast or fresh yeast. There's also a combination of things at work here. THAT SMELL is not entirely a malty smell, but also a cheesy and IMO garlic fragrance. So that is why I have been experimenting with the garlic romano and other foodservice "seasonings". I have not had corporate Shakey's in quite a while, but I know that parlour smell that I am seeking from the days of old.

I haven't played around with "nutritional brewer's yeast" in a while, but perhaps it's time I revisit this. I have used http://www.twinlab.com/product/brewers-yeast in the past with some moderate success. Lately I have been doing a 48-hour ferment and the doughs do have a fair amount of more flavor to them. Isn't quite THAT SMELL, but certainly is much more malty. It also improves the amount of blistering on the crust if that's your thing.

Frustrating yes, but having that out there gives reason to make more pizza and pave your own flavor profile. If it wasn't a trade secret they would not really have a franchise that attracted customers.

My question: would increasing the yeast by a percent or two help with the layering?

IMO the layering is not the result of gas produced by the yeast, but the result of trapped moisture in the layers. This is best achieved with a sheeter, however in your case you just need to really be conscious about how much you work the dough. One way to fake it is to make several thin skins and simply dock them on top of each other (Or do a "final" roll very lightly on the sandwich of skins). This way if you're in an over-developed state, the texture will still show some layering.

Skin was taken out of the fridge too early (or put in too late). If you let a laminated skin warm at all before topping and baking, there's a chance the layers could merge together and become more like a single-layered skin.

Baking temperature. 400 is very low. To me that's not even baking; it's more like warming. With that low of a temperature, instead of actually baking the skin, the first few minutes of baking could simulate proofing. If so, then that could be just like letting the skin warm up, which likely creates a situation very similar to my first bullet point. (I don't know, though, because I've never baked a pizza at that low of a temperature.)

Screen. Especially when combined with the low baking temperature, baking on a screen might create conditions not unlike proofing for several minutes, which could make the skin's layers merge.

How you rolled the skin. One thing I do before folding and laminating my dough for this kind of skin is roll it as thin as possible; much thinner than a sheeter could roll it. (I think I actually got this idea from one of Dan's posts from several years ago.) Not only does this make it easier to roll the dough after you fold it, but it also seems to create a more ideal crust than if you don't do it this way.

Too much yeast. 3% IDY is a ton of yeast. As long as you're not overfermenting your dough (which you very well may be doing, considering your dough's high yeast percentage AND the long room-temperature bulk-ferment), excessive yeast is probably one of the reasons why you don't end up with the laminated texture you seek. That is, if the yeast is still alive and working by the time you roll a skin, it's gonna keep working at a very fast rate, which probably makes the layers merge, just like if you put the skin in a proofer; even at cold temperatures.

My experience says rolling by hand can achieve the same results as rolling with a sheeter. (It just takes a lot more work.) And having baked two nearly identical laminated pizzas a week ago (one I rolled by hand and one I rolled with member waltertore's sheeter), I am even more convinced that what I just said is true, because I couldn't tell any difference between the hand-rolled pizza and the sheeted pizza. By the time the two pizzas were cut and served, I had lost track of which was which, and I wouldn't have been able to identify which was which based on how they turned out. The only procedural differences between these two pizzas were: 1) One was sheeted while the other was hand-rolled; and 2) The skin I rolled by hand was rolled about 16 hours earlier than the skin I rolled with the sheeter.

Rather than baking at a lower temperature in response to the toppings not getting done, I'd crank the oven all the way up, stop using the screen, and instead peel the topped skin directly onto the stone. In fact, that's almost exactly what I've done with my own laminated pizzas, except I used to bake my laminated pizzas on a perforated pan, rather than on a screen. As far as I'm concerned, screens are useless except when used as makeshift cooling racks. Screens are for beginners and people/organizations who value ease and convenience over quality (like Domino's). Unless you're baking in a conveyor oven, a screen is nothing but an obstacle between your pizza and the heat/thermal mass that's supposed to bake the pizza. There's essentially no point in using a stone to bake a pizza if you put a barrier between the pizza and the stone's heat (unless the style of pizza you're baking requires a pan to keep the pizza's shape).

I know all about sharing pictures that are not necessarily representative of the entire pizza. Most of my Tommy's pics are from pizzas like that. Not anymore, though. As of summer 2013, I don't have to be picky when sharing pics of my Tommy's clones, and I really make no effort to take good pictures. Pretty much every pic is representative of the entire pizza. I didn't even take pictures of the pizzas I made in Walter's classroom because both of the pizzas looked just like the most recent pictures I've shared (regarding the lamination, anyway).

If you increase the yeast, it will likely only take you in the wrong direction. If I was you, I'd start by cutting the yeast in half. The long room-temperature bulk-ferment, especially in conjunction with that much yeast, screams "overfermented" to me. (That probably doesn't really affect the issues you're having with lamination, though.)

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Your dough formula is unbelievably stiff for a laminated crust and would probably make you happier if it had some fat in it. I wouldn't even think about trying to laminate that dough (but I would be willing to try it for a single-layer crust). I'd suggest increasing the hydration to at least 43% and also adding 2%-5% fat. My current Tommy's dough is 43% hydration plus 5% shortening, and it's as stiff of a dough as I would even consider laminating by hand. And with each one I make, I think maybe it's still a little more crispy/crunchy than it needs to be.

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

$550 dollars for that lil piece of nothing is criminal.....Gene could clone that for 50 bucks!

Still cheaper than $1000-$3000 USD for a commercial sheeter. After you roll a few by hand, it doesn't seem so expensive. Who is Gene? If he could make such a device I am sure there would be a few folks on here interested in buying one really cheap.

Still cheaper than $1000-$3000 USD for a commercial sheeter. After you roll a few by hand, it doesn't seem so expensive. Who is Gene? If he could make such a device I am sure there would be a few folks on here interested in buying one really cheap.

Well there's definitely a niche there if it can be made cheap enough. I wonder out of the $550 just how much of that is the material cost? A roller of this size is very helpful in the kitchen for making sheets of dough for several things; ravioli, pasta, shaping fondant for cakes, making tortillas, pizza!, etc., etc. I use my sheeter for a lot of different stuff. I am surprised imperia or someone else hasn't made something like this for residential use already.

I am surprised imperia or someone else hasn't made something like this for residential use already.

I'm not surprised. As much as I'd like someone to manufacture a simple 16" manual sheeter not unlike the one Gene made, I also understand that the entire market for such a sheeter consists of about 10 people, which means it will probably never happen. I'd actually prefer to have another pizza geek make me a crude manual sheeter and sell it to me for a little more than it cost to make it (or something like that).

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

I'd actually prefer to have another pizza geek make me a crude manual sheeter and sell it to me for a little more than it cost to make it (or something like that).

Therein lies the problem. Unless you're set-up to crank(pun intended)these out you can quickly have quite a few hrs. into this type of thing with ordering special parts, running around to hardware store, metal stock shop, the build, package and ship, etc. Multiply those hrs by what the man's time is worth.....well, you know....

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Your dough formula is unbelievably stiff for a laminated crust and would probably make you happier if it had some fat in it. I wouldn't even think about trying to laminate that dough (but I would be willing to try it for a single-layer crust). I'd suggest increasing the hydration to at least 43% and also adding 2%-5% fat. My current Tommy's dough is 43% hydration plus 5% shortening, and it's as stiff of a dough as I would even consider laminating by hand. And with each one I make, I think maybe it's still a little more crispy/crunchy than it needs to be.

The percentages I listed are specifically for dough made of either Pillsbury AP or Gold Medal AP. If I was trying to get the same result with KAAP, I'd probably do about 40% hydration, if not a little lower. This is based on the fact that when I switched from KAAP to Pillsbury, I had to increase the hydration of my dough by about 5% to make my Pillsbury dough feel the same as my KAAP dough. But since that was a very soft deep dish dough, I can't say for sure how it might translate for a stiff cracker style dough.

All I know is that 43% hydration plus 5% shortening is working real good for me when I use Pillsbury AP. If you use those percentages with either Pillsbury AP or Gold Medal AP, expect a very crispy crust, with perhaps a bit of crunch.

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

In the interest of making small changes, I used my formula from above with the following changes:0.6% yeastAP flour instead of the BRM (it's what I had on hand)I baked at about 500 (the best my apartment's oven can manage) on a stone.

I used a locally brewed Scottish ale for the beer.

Unfortunately, I screwed up my shaping schedule, so it didn't laminate very well.

However, it did come out with a nice flavor, with something like the "crunch" (and structural strength) I was looking for.

I plan to try again soon, this time getting my schedule right to see if that will make the lamination I'm looking for.

The cheese is an 80/10/10 blend of Mozz/provolone/cheddar from a company called Schreiber. My local Costco sells it. It's convenient and easy, but not the best tasting blend for this purpose. I may be rethinking some of the ingredients I have been using because I am out of ideas for changing the crust. THAT SMELL still eludes me. I'll probably die not knowing what it is. I must say though, I took the trash out then came back in the house and the aroma was intensely wonderful. I wonder is it's just the accumulation of this aroma and grease in a pizza joint that makes it smell that way. Throw in a few spilled beers on the carpet for that "dank" bar smell and there you have it. Gee that would be so disappointing to have that revelation.

I wonder if `the smell` could maybe come from the sauce burning in the oven. I once worked at a joint that used pureed regular old spanish onion in their sauce....that place smelled too good when you first walked in. Especially in the middle of a Chicago winter....step into that nice warm pizzeria and the smell would literally wrap it`s arms around you an give ya a big ole pizza hug.

THAT SMELL still eludes me. I'll probably die not knowing what it is. I must say though, I took the trash out then came back in the house and the aroma was intensely wonderful. I wonder is it's just the accumulation of this aroma and grease in a pizza joint that makes it smell that way. Throw in a few spilled beers on the carpet for that "dank" bar smell and there you have it.

Pizza came out super crispy tonight. A little too much heat on the rim, but good nonetheless. Also made an all cheese for the kiddos. This was actually scrap dough.

Dan,You were the first PMF member I ever felt like I was cyber-stalking; reading your posts, conversations, exchanges with Lydia on all the RTP sauce and pizza clones. After 2 years - I'm still not adventurous enough to try all the laminating and docking, and workflow you do for this style. I hope - one day I'll be ready. The reason for this post is your Sausage, Pepperoni, Mushroom pizza in the above post in this string looks EXACTLY like the RTP pizza I ordered every time I went to RTP. I swear - I can smell the smell you are talking about right now. I have a RTP about 1/2 a mile from my house and it does not smell anything like that smell we love so much. But that pizza, Dan! That is perfection!Cheers,Don