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Because children aren't held to the same standard. Because they are children. And you are judging her in such a harsh manner that it is ridiculous.

So saying she did something dangerous selfish and incosiderate is judjing her in a harsh manner? How so? You mean that because she's a kid it's harsh to say she did something wrong?

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Originally Posted by Ansalem

Fine, no, being unique in NO WAY AT ALL makes something dangerous. It is a completely absurd argument, so I figured no would work.

Being unique means it's one of a kind. As it's shady to begin with and many details about it are lacking being unique does indeed make it more dangerous. If you already have something very similar to it that you could probably guess what the side effect might be. Of course that doesn't mean you'll be 100% right but at least you have some general idea of wat might happen. So in this specific case being unique makes it potentionly more dangerous.
Yes in general being unique by iteslf doesn't make something more dangerousand. Out of context it indeed sounds absurd but this is not the case here.

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Originally Posted by Ansalem

I mentioned the coma because you brought it up. So I will rephrase. There is no way a reasonable person would know that very dire things would occur. Reasonable people attempt the unknown all the time. My point still stands. Again.

In my last two comments I didn't use the going into a coma argument at all. How does your point sitll stand when you just skipped the arguments that supported the oposite?
Reasonable people attempt the unkown after they have a general idea of the risks involved and for pure scientific purposes under reasonable circumstances.

From what you say a reasonable person would go "ahaa something I have no details about, it might be dangerous and is under investigation. Cool I'll use it to see what happens" That contradics with the meaning of the word reasonable in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Ansalem

You have specifically mentioned people falling into comas. You have seen countless people on screen going criminal using the powers of the LU. You've incorporated all of this into your argument. Saten only vaguely knows that there may be side effects and that LU may be using it for crime.

Actually the part I'm using for my argument is the scene in the resturant when Kurko talked about the Lu in front of Saten, the general knowledge of a person in AC as in knowing what type of procedure they went through when they came to AC and common sense.
I don't see how any of that incorporates anything Saten doesn't know.

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Originally Posted by Ansalem

You said she was sympathetic and deserved no sympathy in the same sentence, hence the contradiction.

Hmm I think I said it clealy enough. I feel sympathy for her character in general as a human being that went through some hardships in life but I don't see, understan nor justfy her actions thus those actions don't make me feel more sympathy towards her character. Also I din't use sympathy two times to avoid confusion. Is it clear enough now?

So saying she did something dangerous selfish and incosiderate is judjing her in a harsh manner? How so? You mean that because she's a kid it's harsh to say she did something wrong?

No, but saying she deserves no sympathy and gets what's coming to her is judging her in a harsh manner.

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Being unique means it's one of a kind. As it's shady to begin with and many details about it are lacking being unique does indeed make it more dangerous. If you already have something very similar to it that you could probably guess what the side effect might be. Of course that doesn't mean you'll be 100% right but at least you have some general idea of wat might happen. So in this specific case being unique makes it potentionly more dangerous.
Yes in general being unique by iteslf doesn't make something more dangerousand. Out of context it indeed sounds absurd but this is not the case here.

You said it was like drugs. I said it wasn't, it was unique. You say that makes it more dangerous (than if it were similar to drugs is the implication). That is where the logic disconnect is.

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In my last two comments I didn't use the going into a coma argument at all. How does your point sitll stand when you just skipped the arguments that supported the oposite?
Reasonable people attempt the unkown after they have a general idea of the risks involved and for pure scientific purposes under reasonable circumstances.

Step 1. I defined criminal negligence, and said that she heard rumors, and said she doesn't do something that a reasonable person would expect to have grievous outcomes, therefore no criminal negligence.
Step 2. You say they are rumors, but solid information from Judgments.
Step 3. I argue that while the little information she heard was from Judgments, what she did hear was conjecture that Shirai specifically says they are unsure about, and doesn't speak in specifics, thus not giving a reasonable person enough evidence that something horrendous would occur, therefore no criminal negligence.
Step 4. You say I am using future info of comas, say regardless the outcome it is dangerous and not something a reasonable person would do.
Step 5. I rephrase, saying coma or not, a reasonable person would not expect a consequence such as that to occur, therefore no criminal negligence.
I am not skipping your arguments, but answering them, leaving mine standing. If it seems as though I'm being picky on when you can use outside knowledge, I am. There are two parts of criminal negligence. Does what the reasonable person knows (no future knowledge) lead to expecting the outcome (using future knowledge).

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Hmm I think I said it clealy enough. I feel sympathy for her character in general as a human being that went through some hardships in life but I don't see, understan nor justfy her actions thus those actions don't make me feel more sympathy towards her character. Also I din't use sympathy two times to avoid confusion. Is it clear enough now?

There's a difference between those actions making her more sympathetic (which I don't think they do either), and saying things like she got what's coming to her. What you say there is more reasonable and closer (though still not near) to my feelings than what you have previously been representing.

Well yes you have a point but it doens't really seem she was going to help because she had an ability or not. That's determined by her character not abilites so the reason for wanting one was not conected with helping, or at least I don't see it like that.

I suppose you have a point that she always going to try and help regardless of whether or not she had powers but almost every serious Saten moment implies that she believes she could help more. I can't see it anyway other than that.

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"I hated myself because i had no abilities" and "Does being Level Zero mean that your defective?" basically mean the same thing - she was different from most people around her because she didn't have an ability and thus the iferiority complex thing we saw up until episode 9. I do believe that everyone has something they want and others have but few people actually get depressed by it especially when you have nice friends that stay around and care a lot about you despite the fact that you think you're inferior to them as a human being which isn't really the case IMO since ability doens't mean everything to a person or at least it shouldn't.
"And I couldn't stop myself from admiring those who had them" well this could be for a number of reason that support both points of view. Admiration can be caused by many things and in this case I think back to episode one whe Saten said "amazing" when she saw Misaka's power which again can mean both things. First it can mean amazing as in it's so cool to have an ability and second amazing as in "it's amazing how she can help people in danger" (well at that moment she blasted a car 20m into the air but the general idea was that she did it to protect someone).

I believe a person can hate himself for a lot of things even if they're childish. That of course doen't really mean theyr'e right. In general there are people who think too much of themselves and people who think too little of themselves. Saten fall in the second group.
Take Uiharu for example - se's a level one that has alway been a level one. From everything we know about her it seems she really tires her best in everything she does which probably means she doens't have the potentila to develop it any furthrer. On top of that she's working in Judjment wherre she's surrouned by even more people with powerfull abilities than Saten so in a sense she should feel the same way Saten does. To tis day we have no idea what her ability is and we've never seen her using it which mean that with just hard work she became a great person that can help others even she is techically powerless to do anything when bad guys are involved. We gat this paralel between the two charater whcih both are in a similar postion yet one of them is determined to work hard and do what she can and the other is doing something selfish and dangerous.

i suppose Saten could have childish reasons for hating herself, but really, take into account where she's living. A city where 'Level is everything'. Bare in mind she went to the city at a very young age, and no doubt the city brainwashed her into thinking like that through social norms and conformity. It's almost impossible to shake those kinds of things off, even if you are aware of them. Besides, I'm pretty damn sure that whole 'Mama' thing had to mean something. I don't think the 90% of those that have had childish dreams had to go through that. I see her inferiority complex as something similar to anorexia (maybe I'm overstepping my boundraries when I say that, so if I have done, then I apolagize).

No, but saying she deserves no sympathy and gets what's coming to her is judging her in a harsh manner.

Well I still stant beihind my oppinion she doesn't deserve our sypathy for what she did since it was wrong in many ways and that has nothing to do with sypathy towards here character. Again different things.

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Originally Posted by Ansalem

You said it was like drugs. I said it wasn't, it was unique. You say that makes it more dangerous (than if it were similar to drugs is the implication). That is where the logic disconnect is.

First of all I said it was similar to drugs but was something more that that. Ater that I admitted it was unique and was neither like drugs nor medicine and then clearly said why would being unique in this case make it potentionally more dangerous. I don't see any problem with the logic here.

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Originally Posted by Ansalem

Step 1. I defined criminal negligence, and said that she heard rumors, and said she doesn't do something that a reasonable person would expect to have grievous outcomes, therefore no criminal negligence.
Step 2. You say they are rumors, but solid information from Judgments.
Step 3. I argue that while the little information she heard was from Judgments, what she did hear was conjecture that Shirai specifically says they are unsure about, and doesn't speak in specifics, thus not giving a reasonable person enough evidence that something horrendous would occur, therefore no criminal negligence.
Step 4. You say I am using future info of comas, say regardless the outcome it is dangerous and not something a reasonable person would do.
Step 5. I rephrase, saying coma or not, a reasonable person would not expect a consequence such as that to occur, therefore no criminal negligence.

on point two I also gave a reason why a reasonable person would still reconsider even if those were just rumors just because there where health risks. Anything form this point on just adds up. And a theory supported by facts made by someone investigating these cases is by know means a rummor or a wild guess.
after that we had point six when I said a reasonable person is very likely to expect the LU to potentionally be dangerous to one's health and we ended up here.
Either way I didn't call it criminal negligence, I just gave this as an example. I think using this is going a bit far but the more we discuss it the more the idea seem closer.

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Originally Posted by Ansalem

I am not skipping your arguments, but answering them, leaving mine standing. If it seems as though I'm being picky on when you can use outside knowledge, I am. There are two parts of criminal negligence. Does what the reasonable person knows (no future knowledge) lead to expecting the outcome (using future knowledge).

No actually you are or at least some of them. I clearly gave my example for the information I used that showed nothing of future knowledge and you didn't adress that point at all.
Either way I can't see how tampering with someone's brain in an unkonw way can be considered safe thus expecting something like a coma (which might as well have been a completely different thing connected to the brain and the processes in the human body) isn't at all far fetched.

I think the problem here is our definiton of reasonable because for me a reasonable perosn takes all the pros and cons into accout, thinks carefully about them using the things he knows and tries to think of any other cons that might show up. After that he does what he thinks is right. And for me Saten failed to this since for her (and by going from what you said you as well) doing something to a person's brain to give them powers in an uknown way isn't a danger to your health at all and I have a hard time agreeing with this

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Originally Posted by Ansalem

There's a difference between those actions making her more sympathetic (which I don't think they do either), and saying things like she got what's coming to her. What you say there is more reasonable and closer (though still not near) to my feelings than what you have previously been representing.

Yes there's a difference but I don't see how one excludes the other. What I meant from begining to end was that Saten did a really bad thing and in a sense she got what she deserved for doing something dangerous,stupid, selfish and incosiderate.( I could aigan list why I think she's each of this) You can't get off with doing something like this without suffering the concequnces cause that's how the world works. Even she admitted it while talking to Uiharu so I don't really think it's such a harsh thing to say. And yes I'm well aware that in those situations people tend to blame themselves. That however doesn't mean they are wrong espceially in this case.
Even if you argue that it's too harsh it wouldn't change the facts that she needs to take responsibility for her actions.
If she actually thought about what she was really doing in a reasonble way she would have had a similar conversation with Uiharu before she used the LU.

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Originally Posted by Haak

I suppose you have a point that she always going to try and help regardless of whether or not she had powers but almost every serious Saten moment implies that she believes she could help more. I can't see it anyway other than that.

Yes but the ability thing was really more for just having it. When she used it for the first time she was well aware it wouldn't change anythig since it can't actually be put inot practical use since her power is too weak.

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Originally Posted by Haak

i suppose Saten could have childish reasons for hating herself, but really, take into account where she's living. A city where 'Level is everything'. Bare in mind she went to the city at a very young age, and no doubt the city brainwashed her into thinking like that through social norms and conformity. It's almost impossible to shake those kinds of things off, even if you are aware of them. Besides, I'm pretty damn sure that whole 'Mama' thing had to mean something. I don't think the 90% of those that have had childish dreams had to go through that. I see her inferiority complex as something similar to anorexia (maybe I'm overstepping my boundraries when I say that, so if I have done, then I apolagize).

Well since she went to the city at a very early age she should have already come in terms with her situation. Also by living alone all this time she should have matured as a person and because of this she should think more carefully about the things she does and the consequences that follow.

Agian her situation wasn't really that bad mostly because of the people that surrounded her. If this wasn't the case being in AC for so many years would have left Saten depressed lonely and that would have turned her into somone that just lives on without a goal in life. The fact that she looked lively and happy half the time should probably mean she came in terms with the fact that she's a level 0 and moved on or at least took her first steps in mvoing on. Yet for some reason she doesn't seem like a person who has a general idea of what they want to do and there's that inferiority complex. Meaning she didn't really move on. Wierd eh?

Her mother didn't want to let her go there so in fact if she came back after learning she's a level 0 I believe her mother would have been really happy. I tink he whole mama thing was there to give more detail and background info about her situation.

I don't believe 90% of the people go through that as well but some indeed do. I meant 90% of the people's childish dreams are shatered at one point after they learn that the world doesn't work in their favour.

I agree with you with you about AC pushing thinking like that through social norms and such on the people who live there. This actually doesn't sound that far fetched. On the other hand during this episode Saten clearly gave her reason for doing what she did and they weren't closely connected with this. It's not like other people and society as a whole were looking down on her, she was looking down on herself.

Yes but the ability thing was really more for just having it. When she used it for the first time she was well aware it wouldn't change anythig since it can't actually be put inot practical use since her power is too weak.

She was just happy that she finally got it. I mean she spent years of depression over not having an ability. And after all, they all have to start somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Joe_fh

Well since she went to the city at a very early age she should have already come in terms with her situation. Also by living alone all this time she should have matured as a person and because of this she should think more carefully about the things she does and the consequences that follow.

Agian her situation wasn't really that bad mostly because of the people that surrounded her. If this wasn't the case being in AC for so many years would have left Saten depressed lonely and that would have turned her into somone that just lives on without a goal in life. The fact that she looked lively and happy half the time should probably mean she came in terms with the fact that she's a level 0 and moved on or at least took her first steps in mvoing on. Yet for some reason she doesn't seem like a person who has a general idea of what they want to do and there's that inferiority complex. Meaning she didn't really move on. Wierd eh?

I'm really not sure how living alone and coming at an early age can somehow make her manage to come to terms with things.

She probably did, too, but like I said being around Kuroko and Misaka only made things worse for her, rather than better. Misaka said it herself that satne was actually trying to talk to her about it and Misaka herself admitted that she didn't think she could help.

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Her mother didn't want to let her go there so in fact if she came back after learning she's a level 0 I believe her mother would have been really happy. I tink he whole mama thing was there to give more detail and background info about her situation.

I think the way Saten talked about it as if it was something painful, suggests that we were meant to look at it from her POV rather than as more background. She thought she was going to die and right in the middle of a conversation with Uihara she starts thinking about her. I just think it's too important to consider as just background info. Misaka clearly condsidered it important.

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I agree with you with you about AC pushing thinking like that through social norms and such on the people who live there. This actually doesn't sound that far fetched. On the other hand during this episode Saten clearly gave her reason for doing what she did and they weren't closely connected with this. It's not like other people and society as a whole were looking down on her, she was looking down on herself.

I think she must have had a reason for believing she was defective. If I'm not mistaken, in Index, that pink haired sensei explained about the oddities of Level Zero and said it herself that they were an odd case that go against all the theory. Even Misaka recongised that there is a case of "Levels mean everything". Perhaps Misaka could've been wrong but I think that bit was the authors attempt at trying to explain Saten's character though Misaka. It's not like he hasn't done it before.

She was just happy that she finally got it. I mean she spent years of depression over not having an ability. And after all, they all have to start somewhere.

I do not believe she really wanted an ability all that much prior to meeting Misaka/Kuroko, only until this whole upper level business starting going around. In the first episode she mentioned somewhere along the lines of being fine without an ability so long as everyday was fun. Nor does the early episodes indicate a strong desire to have an ability.
It was really the "convenient" situations which occurred around later on which caused her to really desire such a thing.

^ I have a hard time believing that. The first time we see her is in episode one when she tells Uiharu that she's still level zero and you could see from her expression and body language that she was visibly dissapointed. Perhaps not depression but later we see just how much she wants to help and goes tthrough extraordinary lengths just to prove to herself that she can. If anything, i would've thought the first episode emphasised just how much she didn't want to be level zero.

I guess my basic point here was, as Haak said, that a character doesn't have to be exonerated in order for us to feel sympathy. Again, everyone makes mistakes. Saten's was not a particularly terrible one (this is my point of argumentation).

It doesn't mean she can be forgiven either. In fact, it's nowhere beyond reasonable logic that she could end up being charged by the other kids' parents for endangering their lives when she wakes up. Not that the anime will show that of course; obviously they want us to feel sorry for Saten, but it doesn't work too well when she displays a terrifying absence of wariness and common sense.

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Level upper isn't a physical substance, isn't something you ingest, so the degree to which it can potentially effect body/mind balance/chemistry is again completely incomparable to drugs. Think about it, seriously. What kind of side effects could some measly .mp3 file possibly have? Most imaginable possibilities fall under minor inconveniences like headaches, blurry vision, or insomnia. Falling unconscious (permanently? This is only believable because we know level upper is a network) is about as bad as that line of thinking will get. The possible negative consequences are nowhere near the level of drugs.

Why, in a world of sci-fi powers, Espers, and magic, does something have to be physical or ingested for it to be dangerous? That's not even necessarily true in real life. And how can something that gives a normal person super powers not be altering your mind and/or body in some way?
Obviously the "measly .mp3 file" has some nasty side effects. And as I said, how can this not be something that affects your mind or body?

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Spoiler:

The difference between Kiyama and a drug dealer is that Kiyama can and intends to reverse the negative effects of the level upper. Rather than taking your money, she's borrowing your brain. At the end of your coma, you will come out none the worse for the wear, and with the brief experience of having had stronger powers (or powers at all). It's not so bad a deal.

And how would Saten know any of this? How does she or anyone else know the maker of Level Upper isn't some psychotic bad guy out to kill kids and create anarchy with the ones that don't die? Nobody knew anything about the person who made Level Upper, his/her intentions, or even who it was in the first place until now, so how could anybody know or even think this thing is safe when they know next to nothing about it? I'll answer that; they don't care. Like drug addicts, they either know it's dangerous and don't care or are too dumb to realize it because they have the naive idea that "it's fine because it helps me in a way," and they use it without knowing a thing about it.
The fact is, Kiyama is using peoples' naivety and desire for superpowers to use their brains for her own purposes. If she actually cared about the people she was giving it to, why is she tricking them into it? And if people used common sense and didn't use the shady, suspicious audio "drug" like people don't use drugs, then we wouldn't have people falling comatose.

Spoiler:

And I don't think anybody is going to be going "hey, it's all good if you were just going to bring them back, it doesn't matter that you took advantage of these kids and sent them into a coma for your own purposes, no biggie."

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Spoiler:

I guess I should have put 'harmless' in a spoiler but yeah as I said above. The coma will come to an end. It's a couple days' lost time. That's the extent of Level upper's 'side effects', or rather, given the drug dealer analogy, its 'costs'. That's basically harmless/very very cheap to me.

I have to admit, I'm at a loss.......
So if some freakout stranger doctor took advantage of your kid and put him/her into a coma to take their brains for their use, even if it's for a little time, you wouldn't mind? I apologize again, but I must say that you have a flawed view of people. This is far from harmless and any sane person would want Kiyama's head on a silver platter.
Of course this probably won't happen with our heroes, simply because they're the heroes and this is anime, and anime heroes have a tendency to forgive some pretty heinous stuff. Neither Touma nor Mikoto went after Accelerator again after Touma beat him or were even so much as wary of him, just to name one example from a list as long as the equator of the earth.

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lol 'die'. I will admit that Saten dragging her friends into it bothered me. Somehow I don't remember Saten seeming so cowardly in the manga. I'm too lazy to check, but on the basis of that vague feeling I'm going to claim that it seemed more evident there that the friends wanted it and would have taken it on their own if they could anyway.

And as I said, just because they could have taken it on their own, doesn't make Saten any less responsible for giving it to them to be used in the first place. Especially since they may not have found any on their own to go comatose with at all if Saten hadn't given it to them. At the extreme least, Saten should have taken it by herself first, waited to see if it was safe, then let her friends use it. After all, she had enough common sense to be scared of using it, although obviously not enough to not use it at all.
I'll take another TV quote, from Stargate Atlantis, particular focus on the last two lines:

Dr. Weir: "I usually stop at dealing nuclear weapons."

Lt. Ford: "They were making them anyway...."

Dr. Weir: [sarcastically] "Well, Lieutenant, if they were making them anyway, why didn't you just SAY so."

Just because they were doing it or wanted to do it, doesn't make it okay to help them.

Btw guys did you remember that argument from the 5th ep. thread about whether Kuroko can teleport people by holding to their clothes or not? Here is the answer:

__________________

Oversized signature, meet underfed bunnies.Natsuru:
- This cake is great. But I don't think I could eat the rest of it by myself.Black Seppuku Bunny:
- Want us to help you?Harakiri Tiger:
- We'd be happy to take a piece.Natsuru:
- Can you even digest it with your guts hanging out like that?

It doesn't mean she can be forgiven either. In fact, it's nowhere beyond reasonable logic that she could end up being charged by the other kids' parents for endangering their lives when she wakes up. Not that the anime will show that of course; obviously they want us to feel sorry for Saten, but it doesn't work too well when she displays a terrifying absence of wariness and common sense.

If Saten's friends' parents actually did charge her with endangering their lives, what would the verdict be? What would the punishment be? How much 'responsibility' do you think Saten would reasonably have to bear? While you might have sympathy for the hysterics of parents acting in this manner, such exaggerated and blame-seeking thinking would be nowhere close to reality.

Your 'terrifying absence of wariness and common sense' is ridiculously exaggerated too. Again, it's just a freakin' .mp3 file. See below.

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Why, in a world of sci-fi powers, Espers, and magic, does something have to be physical or ingested for it to be dangerous? That's not even necessarily true in real life. And how can something that gives a normal person super powers not be altering your mind and/or body in some way?
Obviously the "measly .mp3 file" has some nasty side effects. And as I said, how can this not be something that affects your mind or body?

Why, in a world of scientifically based extra-sensory-powers, do we have to stretch our suspension of disbelief and the bounds of science to demonify a measly sound file? I made this point before, but the falling into a coma isn't even a 'side effect'. Level Upper itself doesn't have any side effects. The coma is a result of something else, in no way related to the normal functioning of the level upper.

So your 'obviously Level Upper has some nasty side effects' falls flat. List even one? As I mentioned in my last post, the only concievable (on the basis of science, on the basis of commons sense) side effects of something like Level Upper would have been stuff like headaches or insomnia, at worst temporary fainting spells, and Level Upper doesn't even have those. The 'terrifying bodily consequences' that some of you are imagining are nothing more than wild and illusionary fantasies.

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And how would Saten know any of this? How does she or anyone else know the maker of Level Upper isn't some psychotic bad guy out to kill kids and create anarchy with the ones that don't die? Nobody knew anything about the person who made Level Upper, his/her intentions, or even who it was in the first place until now, so how could anybody know or even think this thing is safe when they know next to nothing about it? I'll answer that; they don't care. Like drug addicts, they either know it's dangerous and don't care or are too dumb to realize it because they have the naive idea that "it's fine because it helps me in a way," and they use it without knowing a thing about it.
The fact is, Kiyama is using peoples' naivety and desire for superpowers to use their brains for her own purposes. If she actually cared about the people she was giving it to, why is she tricking them into it? And if people used common sense and didn't use the shady, suspicious audio "drug" like people don't use drugs, then we wouldn't have people falling comatose.

Spoiler:

And I don't think anybody is going to be going "hey, it's all good if you were just going to bring them back, it doesn't matter that you took advantage of these kids and sent them into a coma for your own purposes, no biggie."

Anonymous altruism isn't all that unbelievable. I'd find it perfectly reasonable if someone did develop something like the Level Upper out of (maybe sympathy for) the same kind of suffering Saten has gone through, and distributed it out of the good of his heart. That is certainly more within the realm of 'common sense' than the assumption of a psychotic out to create anarchy.

Spoiler:

People who would condemn Kiyama for how she treats Level Upper users are of a 'treat people better than they deserve' moralistic tendency. That the power hungry fall into a coma is just deserts, while the naive ultimately come to no harm, justifying in part their assumption of good will, though they are also forced to realize that it was too good to be true after all.

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I have to admit, I'm at a loss.......
So if some freakout stranger doctor took advantage of your kid and put him/her into a coma to take their brains for their use, even if it's for a little time, you wouldn't mind? I apologize again, but I must say that you have a flawed view of people. This is far from harmless and any sane person would want Kiyama's head on a silver platter.
Of course this probably won't happen with our heroes, simply because they're the heroes and this is anime, and anime heroes have a tendency to forgive some pretty heinous stuff. Neither Touma nor Mikoto went after Accelerator again after Touma beat him or were even so much as wary of him, just to name one example from a list as long as the equator of the earth.

I don't have kids (...why are you framing the situation this way?), and I don't really want to speak hypothetically, but even in the situation you have set up, I wouldn't cross out the option entirely, especially if the kid wanted it. The only stumbling point is the 'freakout stranger doctor' part, which could quite potentially be alleviated by a little conversation.

To say that any sane person would want Kiyama executed is a truly boxed and closed definition of 'sane'.

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And as I said, just because they could have taken it on their own, doesn't make Saten any less responsible for giving it to them to be used in the first place. Especially since they may not have found any on their own to go comatose with at all if Saten hadn't given it to them. At the extreme least, Saten should have taken it by herself first, waited to see if it was safe, then let her friends use it. After all, she had enough common sense to be scared of using it, although obviously not enough to not use it at all.
I'll take another TV quote, from Stargate Atlantis, particular focus on the last two lines:

Dr. Weir: "I usually stop at dealing nuclear weapons."

Lt. Ford: "They were making them anyway...."

Dr. Weir: [sarcastically] "Well, Lieutenant, if they were making them anyway, why didn't you just SAY so."

Just because they were doing it or wanted to do it, doesn't make it okay to help them.

I'd say Saten's 'fear' might have been more parts 'I'm breaking the implicit rules set by Judgement, AC's enforcers of public order, as represented by my friend' than 'this might be seriously bad for my health'. On that level, the friends' (or just about everybody's) willingness to 'break the rules' has very little negative reflection on Saten. The worst you could say about her being an 'enabler' might be that she's a 'bad influence', but that would be make some rather dubious assumptions on the personalities of both Saten and her friends.

Requiring that Saten should have taken the Level Upper on her own and tested it before sharing it with friends is ridiculous in any case. You couldn't ask or expect that of any kid.

Well I still stant beihind my oppinion she doesn't deserve our sypathy for what she did since it was wrong in many ways and that has nothing to do with sypathy towards here character. Again different things.

You can't separate all the things you've said. You have said that she deserves to have fallen into a coma. A child deserve that? For taking level uppers? You can't just avoid your words.

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First of all I said it was similar to drugs but was something more that that. Ater that I admitted it was unique and was neither like drugs nor medicine and then clearly said why would being unique in this case make it potentionally more dangerous. I don't see any problem with the logic here.

Again, not being drugs (or medicine) does not create the inherent potential for more danger.

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on point two I also gave a reason why a reasonable person would still reconsider even if those were just rumors just because there where health risks. Anything form this point on just adds up. And a theory supported by facts made by someone investigating these cases is by know means a rummor or a wild guess.
after that we had point six when I said a reasonable person is very likely to expect the LU to potentionally be dangerous to one's health and we ended up here.
Either way I didn't call it criminal negligence, I just gave this as an example. I think using this is going a bit far but the more we discuss it the more the idea seem closer.

I know you weren't the person who brought up the term, but you defended it. In any case, there is still no way that a reasonable person would expect LU to cause all users to fall into a coma. There is nothing for her to add up. It's a new substance, that seems to work in a similar way to the process they induce powers in the first place, and she's heard there may be side effects. You make it sound as though there's pile of dubious evidence. Sure, it may not be the best idea. It seems shady. But it's a well known urban legend, with seemingly wide underground usage. A reasonable person would not expect that substance to cause a coma for all users. There's really not much more on this point.

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No actually you are or at least some of them. I clearly gave my example for the information I used that showed nothing of future knowledge and you didn't adress that point at all.
Either way I can't see how tampering with someone's brain in an unkonw way can be considered safe thus expecting something like a coma (which might as well have been a completely different thing connected to the brain and the processes in the human body) isn't at all far fetched.

I addressed all your points. Reasonable people do try new things. She did not hear any solid information, even if it was from a Judgment. The entire city that they live in is based on the idea of messing with their brains in novel ways. That's why it's reasonable.

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I think the problem here is our definiton of reasonable because for me a reasonable perosn takes all the pros and cons into accout, thinks carefully about them using the things he knows and tries to think of any other cons that might show up. After that he does what he thinks is right. And for me Saten failed to this since for her (and by going from what you said you as well) doing something to a person's brain to give them powers in an uknown way isn't a danger to your health at all and I have a hard time agreeing with this

The problem here is you are trying to think of reasonable to do = a good idea/something with absolutely no problems. That's not what this is about. It's about whether the outcome would be predictable by a normal person. Which it's not.

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Yes there's a difference but I don't see how one excludes the other. What I meant from begining to end was that Saten did a really bad thing and in a sense she got what she deserved for doing something dangerous,stupid, selfish and incosiderate.( I could aigan list why I think she's each of this) You can't get off with doing something like this without suffering the concequnces cause that's how the world works. Even she admitted it while talking to Uiharu so I don't really think it's such a harsh thing to say. And yes I'm well aware that in those situations people tend to blame themselves. That however doesn't mean they are wrong espceially in this case.
Even if you argue that it's too harsh it wouldn't change the facts that she needs to take responsibility for her actions.
If she actually thought about what she was really doing in a reasonble way she would have had a similar conversation with Uiharu before she used the LU.

She made a mistake. There are no laws against this. The main issue here is that is the immense ridiculousness and callousness of someone saying that a middle school girl using a new unknown substance with her friends deserves to fall into a coma. Good grief.

I think the problem here is our definiton of reasonable because for me a reasonable perosn takes all the pros and cons into accout, thinks carefully about them using the things he knows and tries to think of any other cons that might show up. After that he does what he thinks is right. And for me Saten failed to this since for her (and by going from what you said you as well) doing something to a person's brain to give them powers in an uknown way isn't a danger to your health at all and I have a hard time agreeing with this

This is funny. Your definition of reasonable fits closer to most people's definition of wise. Thinking things through, planning ahead, weighing the consequences of your actions; these are all signs of a wise person and things that children are not expected to do. These are things that even most adults struggle with.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling

If Saten's friends' parents actually did charge her with endangering their lives, what would the verdict be? What would the punishment be? How much 'responsibility' do you think Saten would reasonably have to bear? While you might have sympathy for the hysterics of parents acting in this manner, such exaggerated and blame-seeking thinking would be nowhere close to reality.

To add to this, if parents were going to look at someone to blame, it wouldn't be Saten. They'd blame the developer of LU, not some random child among the thousands of users that fell victim to it herself.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Why, in a world of scientifically based extra-sensory-powers, do we have to stretch our suspension of disbelief and the bounds of science to demonify a measly sound file? I made this point before, but the falling into a coma isn't even a 'side effect'. Level Upper itself doesn't have any side effects. The coma is a result of something else, in no way related to the normal functioning of the level upper.

Spoiler for Just in case.:

From what I understand, LU works by syncing the brainwaves of the listeners to the developer's, creating a brain network. That network increases the processing power of all those using it, which manifests itself in the espers as an increase in their power's level. The espers eventually fall into a coma because their bodies/brains don't appreciate having their brainwaves changed from their own unique ones into someone else's. Assuming that's really how LU works, then it's not a stretch to say that the comas are a side effect of LU.

I don't think anyone would expect to fall into a coma from listening to music though. That's really stupid.

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Originally Posted by Shinji103

The fact is, Kiyama is using peoples' naivety and desire for superpowers to use their brains for her own purposes. If she actually cared about the people she was giving it to, why is she tricking them into it?

Spoiler:

Kiyama is using the processing power of the created brain network to make a prediction that will expose the unethical practices of the bigwigs of Academy City, or something like that. So, she's a rebel and she can't really be out in the open. I'm not saying that justifies her actions, but there's a reason why she's not open about it.

Also, in the manga at least, when Uihara points out the negative consequences of people randomly falling into comas, Kiyama shows concern and worry about their well-being, and that she hadn't considered that possibility. Again, I'm not saying she's justified, but she's not a super calculating evil villain looking to get her way by any means possible.

From what I understand, LU works by syncing the brainwaves of the listeners to the developer's, creating a brain network. That network increases the processing power of all those using it, which manifests itself in the espers as an increase in their power's level. The espers eventually fall into a coma because their bodies/brains don't appreciate having their brainwaves changed from their own unique ones into someone else's. Assuming that's really how LU works, then it's not a stretch to say that the comas are a side effect of LU.

Spoiler for manga:

I'm not totally clear on this either, 'cause I don't remember the manga specifics, but from the latest anime episode they speculated that the reason people were falling into comas is that the network was using all of their brains' processing power. However, the only reason the network would need all of their processing power is in order to make that prediction you noted earlier. For the normal sharing of AIM fields, the participants being conscious is good enough. As for the reason why some people have fallen unconscious before others and it's not just happening all at once (i.e. when it's time for Kiyama to run the prediction), if I remember right the reason was that she was running tests.

Well, I don't know what's under the spoilers, since I don't want to know. But the discussions we're having in general pertain specifically to this episode and the events that lead up to it, even if they are Saten-centric, so I don't think there's any reason to move them.

Well, I don't know what's under the spoilers, since I don't want to know. But the discussions we're having in general pertain specifically to this episode and the events that lead up to it, even if they are Saten-centric, so I don't think there's any reason to move them.

Yes but the Saten thread is feeling very lonely and neglected down there at the bottom of the forum, and she deserves it, for having the most Alternative Character Interpretation.