it's still more cheaper to give a 3DS to your children instead of an iphone...

I mean, YW target audience is 5-9 y.o. children, they are still too young to have a normal mobile (most of them use a special mobile which can be called and you can call just few registered numbers), but how many 12-13 y.o. guys I saw holding their new iphone 6 -_-

While Famitsu have tendency to sugarcoat everything (and I understand the reason they do so I won't blame them), there are occasions even they can't defend some games. Now I'm kinda interested about the game scored 3 points lol.

correct, just because sales were slow it doesn't mean it was a bomba, a bomba for who ? Level 5 or just some gaffers from sales-age?

when you planned a multimedia product, game, manga, anime, medals, arcade, you make long-term project, not something which last 2 or 3 months...

and after this conference who was saying L5 would have ruined the brand very soon will have to change his own idea : with the new season starting in summer, the spin-off title in July, the new movie in December, YW3 is probably gonna break some records this winter

The better news here is that Nintendo is being rather forth coming with shoring up these deals which was, a while back, a big point of discussion in how they just tend to not be all that proactive or active, for that matter.

Banned

While Famitsu have tendency to sugarcoat everything (and I understand the reason they do so I won't blame them), there are occasions even they can't defend some games. Now I'm kinda interested about the game scored 3 points lol.

While Famitsu have tendency to sugarcoat everything (and I understand the reason they do so I won't blame them), there are occasions even they can't defend some games. Now I'm kinda interested about the game scored 3 points lol.

Yeah, I know the scores will never actually line up with the quality of the game, but I figure someone must have been interested at least.
And 19/40 is actually the lowest score I've ever seen them give which is pretty funny really.

Mrgrgr

While 355K is a great result for many companies, it's peanuts for Level 5 compared to their flagship properties.

They probably feel it's not worthwhile to keep going on that versus trying to aim for a much bigger hit on mobile. They can use a brand that isn't overly valuable to them, but has brand name recognition that can help get it off the ground in a crowded marketplace, and a large set of established assets to work from.

Layton 7 is likely a similar scenario. With Layton no longer shipping out millions of copies, it can again be used to push into mobile with brand recognition, and they can keep trying with it since if the games fail, chances are most of their expanded audience didn't notice it anyway. Mobile acquisition happens overwhelmingly through in-app ads and the top of the free app chart as well so it's not like they're flooding a proverbial shelf space.

Meanwhile they can put their main focus on their current safe bet (Yokai Watch) while trying to establish their next core series (Snack World). Yokai even gets some spin-offs on mobile and 3DS to help push the brand some more and monetize it while it's still hot.

I'm curious to see if they put Inazuma Eleven on mobile as well, or a cross-platform f2p game if they feel the series appeals to kids who are a bit below the smartphone age (though that starts quite low) as Moor pointed out.

Member

I never played Fantasy Life or was really interested in the game or its now announced sequel, but the thing that confuses me is that - if Snack World is any indication - they have the technology to produce cross-handheld/mobile titles.

Maybe the tech behind Fantasy Life 2 is vastly different than what Snack World offers, or the gameplay will not suit the Nintendo handheld platform, but still: it's kind of a weird step to ignore that userbase they built with the first one like that.

Mrgrgr

I never played Fantasy Life or was really interested in the game or its now announced sequel, but the thing that confuses me is that - if Snack World is any indication - they have the technology to produce cross-handheld/mobile titles.

Maybe the tech behind Fantasy Life 2 is vastly different than what Snack World offers, or the gameplay will not suit the Nintendo handheld platform, but still: it's kind of a weird step to ignore that userbase they built with the first one like that.

Jpop

Unconfirmed Member

While 355K is a great result for many companies, it's peanuts for Level 5 compared to their flagship properties.

They probably feel it's not worthwhile to keep going on that versus trying to aim for a much bigger hit on mobile. They can use a brand that isn't overly valuable to them, but has brand name recognition that can help get it off the ground in a crowded marketplace, and a large set of established assets to work from.

Layton 7 is likely a similar scenario. With Layton no longer shipping out millions of copies, it can again be used to push into mobile with brand recognition, and they can keep trying with it since if the games fail, chances are most of their expanded audience didn't notice it anyway. Mobile acquisition happens overwhelmingly through in-app ads and the top of the free app chart as well so it's not like they're flooding a proverbial shelf space.

Meanwhile they can put their main focus on their current safe bet (Yokai Watch) while trying to establish their next core series (Snack World). Yokai even gets some spin-offs on mobile and 3DS to help push the brand some more and monetize it while it's still hot.

I'm curious to see if they put Inazuma Eleven on mobile as well, or a cross-platform f2p game if they feel the series appeals to kids who are a bit below the smartphone age (though that starts quite low) as Moor pointed out.

Banned

I'm not sure why people are reacting so strongly to Level 5 having a strong mobile push since it's not really anything new for them? Even with established IP, their biggest franchises (Layton, IE, Ninokuni, etc) all had mobile games before this.

Is it really all because of the FL2 bait and switch? Or the Vita/console no shows?

Member

I guess people here are more wondering why they are named Layton 7 and FL2. It sounds like they should have spinoff like titles, that indicate they are different from the main series. FL2 = original FL mobile version (call it FL Universe or something different) from what I'm hearing, and Layton 7 = Layton Bros. 2 which was already a mobile title.

Banned

While 355K is a great result for many companies, it's peanuts for Level 5 compared to their flagship properties.

They probably feel it's not worthwhile to keep going on that versus trying to aim for a much bigger hit on mobile. They can use a brand that isn't overly valuable to them, but has brand name recognition that can help get it off the ground in a crowded marketplace, and a large set of established assets to work from.

Layton 7 is likely a similar scenario. With Layton no longer shipping out millions of copies, it can again be used to push into mobile with brand recognition, and they can keep trying with it since if the games fail, chances are most of their expanded audience didn't notice it anyway. Mobile acquisition happens overwhelmingly through in-app ads and the top of the free app chart as well so it's not like they're flooding a proverbial shelf space.

Meanwhile they can put their main focus on their current safe bet (Yokai Watch) while trying to establish their next core series (Snack World). Yokai even gets some spin-offs on mobile and 3DS to help push the brand some more and monetize it while it's still hot.

I'm curious to see if they put Inazuma Eleven on mobile as well, or a cross-platform f2p game if they feel the series appeals to kids who are a bit below the smartphone age (though that starts quite low) as Moor pointed out.

The problem is mainly in the name, and in the concept of the game. It looked like a re-skinned version of the first game with micro-transactions. Who should be targeted to?

which incentives those who played the original one should have? Perhaps, those who like to double-dip and start the game over again might be happy to download FL2, but otherwise I don't see any reason to buy a demake of a game people already have and played.

which incentives those who never played the original should have? There's a big 2 in the title, if the first one is not on mobile, this might put off a lot of new users. Same reasoning for BoF6.

If it was called Fantasy Life Light, for example, it would have been a nice call. The problem is that Level-5 presented a smartphone demake as a full-fledged sequel.

Also, this idea that companies should spit on mid-sized handheld games needs to be better explained. Level-5 survived years with decent sellers, without having a huge hit. It might have changed strategy after YW success, sure, but FL2 on mobile doesn't seem a smart move to begin with; between a decent 3DS seller (with the possibility of having Nintendo backing up the bill for a Western release) and a dull mobile effort, I don't think companies should necessarily go for the latter. This also considering how Level-5 has been pretty bad, sales-wise, on mobile devices.

As for Layton 7, brand recognition triggers as long as there's something of the former brand to be recognized. Layton 7 doesn't have anything of what people liked about the original series (unlike, for example, Layton Brothers, another Level-5 mobile bomb).

Banned

The point is, Fantasy Life hadn't started to decline yet. Fantasy Life had a great word-of-mouth among players; it had legs, and the expansion was well-received. The game also set the stage for better gameplay mechanics, better plot, a wider world and more contents. It doesn't make sense to dump a series "a bit earlier".

Also, you cannot compare IE and LBX with FL, since the former were multimedia franchises. Guild 02 didn't bomb -it was released on the eShop, and it sold well along with the first four games. Sloan and MacHale was a series that only fitted on DS, and that's obvious it didn't continue.

Therefore, I don't see how these data might back up your point, in particular as long as all L5 mobile games bombed. At least they showed to be able to create hits on dedicated devices, and FL might have been the next one. They have yet to prove to be able to creare the next big thing on mobile, and they will hardly be able to as long as they take is re-skinned FL and a party-card game with Layton face attached on some cards.

Mrgrgr

My bad on Guild02. Thought it must have done so badly it didn't chart.

However, on the other note, if they were happy with how Fantasy Life performed, wouldn't they have logically made the sequel on 3DS?

There's obviously some reason Hino feels that continuing their older successes and dumping their newer games to continually go at mobile makes more sense.

We could look at it through a few potential lenses:

1.) He feels dedicated devices aren't going to work in the long run so he's moving any non-essential resources toward mobile instead.

2.) He feels the opportunity cost of making lower end games is no longer worth it when Level 5 has made three million selling series, and if they don't pass at least some unknown X number of copies on the first entry, it's not worth making a dedicated game sequel.

3.) He saw something about Fantasy Life in particular that made him feel the franchise was a dead end on 3DS or a huge potential on mobile to the extent that it made sense to dump the dedicated version and focus solely on that platform. The rest died due to chronic decline.

4.) I'm open to other potential explanations if you have any in mind. Level 5 doesn't make decisions solely out of the blue though so I'd like to see the logical explanation behind it.

On the Guild note though, have they announced any more eShop games since then (Guild branded or otherwise) or is that pretty much over too?

Banned

I thought the consensus why FL2 isn't on 3DS is because it's essentially just FL1 with a layer of sim mgmt on top?

A 3DS FL2 would've had to have been a very different project. My guess is the opportunity cost favored cheaper mobile recycling more but I'd be hesitant to take it as an indictment against the viability lower tier sellers or dedicated game devices overall.

Basically it's not that a 3DS FL2 wouldn't have been worthwhile itself, it's just that this was cheaper and easier. Maybe that distinction doesn't matter much in the end though since 3DS still loses out on a game?

edit: Oh and Guild is done. So are vanity projects in general for L5 it seems though.

I doubt the eShop Guild games did especially well either, although they did try porting one of the first set to iOS/Android (Liberation Maiden) and given that was also never followed up on it probably went even worse commercially.

Member

It is far too early to dismiss Fantasy Life 2 as simply a "reskinned version of the 3DS game", as some in this thread have done. We know nothing of its story, content, etc. Since there is a "2" there, I trust at the very least it will have an entirely new story compared to Fantasy Life 1, otherwise they'd just call it "Fantasy Life Mobile" or something. I mean, I've never heard of any numbered sequel that is simply a reskinned version of the previous game. In any case, I think the move to mobile was a smart one for the series, from a business perspective. I always felt like FL was a good fit for mobile, and the "Link" version in Japan did not sell very well, so it was clear the audience on the 3DS was not growing for this game.

Okay, so we do know a bit about its content. Seems it is a village-building sim with adventure elements like in the first game. But it says "new adventures, new living, new encounters, a new Fantajiiru to explore", so yeah, this is definitely not a reskinned version of FL1.

Mrgrgr

I thought the consensus why FL2 isn't on 3DS is because it's essentially just FL1 with a layer of sim mgmt on top?

A 3DS FL2 would've had to have been a very different project. My guess is the opportunity cost favored cheaper mobile recycling more but I'd be hesitant to take it as an indictment against the viability lower tier sellers or dedicated game devices overall.

Basically it's not that a 3DS FL2 wouldn't have been worthwhile itself, it's just that this was cheaper and easier. Maybe that distinction doesn't matter much in the end though since 3DS still loses out on a game?

Well, regarding paragraph two here, what lower end 3DS games does Level 5 even have?

I guess there's the Koei Tecmo tie-in to Yokai Watch, though it's hanging off their flagship franchise. Anything else? And, by a similar token, what was the last one they released (and about when was it announced)?

Banned

It is far too early to dismiss Fantasy Life 2 as simply a "reskinned version of the 3DS game", as some in this thread have done. We know nothing of its story, content, etc. Since there is a "2" there, I trust at the very least it will have an entirely new story compared to Fantasy Life 1, otherwise they'd just call it "Fantasy Life Mobile" or something. I mean, I've never heard of any numbered sequel that is simply a reskinned version of the previous game. In any case, I think the move to mobile was a smart one for the series, from a business perspective. I always felt like FL was a good fit for mobile, and the "Link" version in Japan did not sell very well, so it was clear the audience on the 3DS was not growing for this game.

FL Link sold well. It was also sold as a cheap expansion on the eShop; it sold more than 70k units in the market, and that was marked as a nice success story.

Also, we're discussing about what they presented; they haven't presented FL2 as a full-fledged sequel, as a company would typically do: I don't know, more jobs, a bigger world... Nothing. Just the same areas of the first one and Castele turned into Cityville. They even showed the same character editor, lol.

We have seen how logic sometimes is missing in L5's business decisions. My idea is that Hino wants to simply exploit FL's popularity by releasing a cheap project on mobile, hoping for the best (i.e. hoping it will the next big thing, as for Layton 7). Fact is, this might have not been the original idea; in 2012, Hino said that he wanted FL to be a franchise; I'm skeptical this was the original plan, since in that case we should have seen this FL2 earlier. Perhaps the company was busy with YW on 3DS, and there were no external developers to contract. Also note that SW resembles a bit FL, so a real FL2 might have turned intow SW, and FL2 downgraded as a re-skinned version of the original one on mobile.

There's obviously some reason Hino feels that continuing their older successes and dumping their newer games to continually go at mobile makes more sense.

We could look at it through a few potential lenses:

1.) He feels dedicated devices aren't going to work in the long run so he's moving any non-essential resources toward mobile instead.

2.) He feels the opportunity cost of making lower end games is no longer worth it when Level 5 has made three million selling series, and if they don't pass at least some unknown X number of copies on the first entry, it's not worth making a dedicated game sequel.

3.) He saw something about Fantasy Life in particular that made him feel the franchise was a dead end on 3DS or a huge potential on mobile to the extent that it made sense to dump the dedicated version and focus solely on that platform. The rest died due to chronic decline.

4.) I'm open to other potential explanations if you have any in mind. Level 5 doesn't make decisions solely out of the blue though so I'd like to see the logical explanation behind it.

On the Guild note though, have they announced any more eShop games since then (Guild branded or otherwise) or is that pretty much over too?

Banned

Well, regarding paragraph two here, what lower end 3DS games does Level 5 even have?

I guess there's the Koei Tecmo tie-in to Yokai Watch, though it's hanging off their flagship franchise. Anything else? And, by a similar token, what was the last one they released (and about when was it announced)?

Mrgrgr

We have seen how logic sometimes is missing in L5's business decisions. My idea is that Hino wants to simply exploit FL's popularity by releasing a cheap project on mobile, hoping for the best (i.e. hoping it will the next big thing, as for Layton 7). Fact is, this might have not been the original idea; in 2012, Hino said that he wanted FL to be a franchise; I'm skeptical this was the original plan, since in that case we should have seen this FL2 earlier. Perhaps the company was busy with YW on 3DS, and there were no external developers to contract. Also note that SW resembles a bit FL, so a real FL2 might have turned intow SW, and FL2 downgraded as a re-skinned version of the original one on mobile.

Yes, I think something obviously changed along the way. Along with the previous series six or so series I've mentioned, Majin Station and Wonder Flick R have also disappeared. Layton 7 has zero relation to the thing they originally unveiled as well.

Level 5 seems to have revamped their entire product pipeline with this conference showing the new vision.

1.) I would argue there's a transitory component here coupled with some light diversification. The biggest hits are still on 3DS (though Snack World is notably also on mobile), but there's a vast increase in focus on mobile with this conference and the last time they held one compared to prior years.

I would actually point to notably large publishers as the model here. If we look at a company like EA, they release major blockbusters at retail (and a DLC pipeline to support them), and focus most of their other efforts into mobile. We see Activision acting a lot like this as well, but instead of mobile, the expanded market focus is on f2p games from Blizzard and some f2p dabling from Activision. Warner has smaller titles, but again they aim for pretty big games and converted a bunch of other studios to mobile dev (along with starting a few dedicated mobile studios).

Take-Two and Ubisoft act a bit differently, but it's more that their standalone mobile and online efforts are failures than them not following the pattern of shrinking to just releasing the largest titles at retail and focusing the rest on digital. Take-Two manages solid digital revenue despite this, but Ubisoft's digital revenue is embarrassing to the point that they're shoving microtransactions in everything and praying that it works. We can actually look at Capcom for an extreme example of this strategy by comparing mainline MH/RE to everything else.

It doesn't make sense to give up the 3DS while it's still making money, at least for the big earners. If your strategy is mobile-centric though, it makes sense to refocus your other efforts onto mobile and try to get hits, especially if you view it as the long term future of your company or perhaps even the industry. If the 4DS and 5DS are major successes, well great, you still have your biggest hits there and can make more if you continually fail at mobile. Snack World is an interesting way to try and amortize risk. I'm curious to see if it's f2p on 3DS as well (presumably with an optional retail bundle you can buy so they have a store presence for little kids).

2.) On this note, my impression is that they feel it's only worthwhile to release retail products tied to their biggest brands. If we look at Square Enix in their heyday, shoving Final Fantasy on everything made a few cheaper products sell a lot better than they would otherwise and made it into a good ROI. Fantasy Life (or at this point, things with any brand except Yokai Watch) don't have that benefit. Notably they also have three smartphone apps coming tied to the IP as well in an attempt at saturation. If the retail titles don't perform decidedly well though (compared to what you'd expect out of this type of product), I'd be surprised if they got continued given Level 5's other actions.

3.) I agree and feel that they've completely redone their corporate strategy as noted above.

Member

Yes, I think something obviously changed along the way. Along with the previous series six or so series I've mentioned, Majin Station and Wonder Flick R have also disappeared. Layton 7 has zero relation to the thing they originally unveiled as well.

Wonderflick R is still alive. They didn't talk about it because it's already an existing product. What seems to have died is Wonderflick R on other non-mobile platforms. They included Wonderflick R in the Level-5 ID umbrella of titles, so it doesn't look like they're going to shut it down anytime soon.

Mrgrgr

Wonderflick R is still alive. They didn't talk about it because it's already an existing product. What seems to have died is Wonderflick R on other non-mobile platforms. They included Wonderflick R in the Level-5 ID umbrella of titles, so it doesn't look like they're going to shut it down anytime soon.

Junior Member

Switching top tier franchises like YW to mobile is too big a risk. On the other hand switching dead franchises to mobile is likely a dead end. However a live franchise like Fantasy Life, now that is a good option for mobile since it has a genuine shot at major growth potential.

Then instead of wasting their time making moderate profits on FL2 for 3DS they can try for a blockbuster new handheld IP while trying to make FL2 a blockbuster on mobile.