I am in wholehearted agreement. Lama Zopa Rinpoche is one of my teachers and I received transmissions,jenangs and advice from him on a number of occasions. I think he is a great teacher but very traditional. I think he always tries to benefit others and is extremely kind. I work as an interpreter in one of the centres affiliated with him. My identity here on DW is no secret.

Fortunately, at FPMT students are allowed to have several different teachers, and different opinions from those of the spiritual director. I don't have to fear losing my job or upsetting Lama Zopa for having a different opinion and expressing it-he explains this in teachings and advised met that learning Tibetan meant I did not have to take anyone's word for it but could check things myself. He said he knows students have studied well when they question his views!

Cone is right-approach this as you would a research essay at university. My lama says so will not get you a good grade. Instead, research a combination of primary and secondary sources,and take into the picture historical accounts according not just to what your teachers tell you but also non gelug narratives. Hold yourself to a higher standard knowing that this will benefit your own knowledge.

In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,I must obtain control over my own mind. Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.-Atisha Dipamkarabrtsal ba'i bkhra drin

It seems to me that there are two "camps" in this discussion: Those that have read the disputed works and are reporting on their content and those that have not read the disputed works and are basing their opinion on heresay.

I will not allow the discussion on Phabongkhapa to continue until those relying on heresay go to the effort of reading the actual works being referred to.

This discussion is over until that happens. Any further mention of the issue will lead to post deletions and/or official warnings and/or account suspensions being issued.

Back to the original subject: Persecution by the Fith Dalai Lama of the Kamtsang (Karma) Kagyu.

I anticipate that those relying on heresay don't read Tibetan. Therefore, are there any objections to translations of portions of the documents in question, here on this thread? I've not gotten to it yet--though I've narrowed it down somewhat--but are there any objections to posting such translations of the primary source materials, for those who can't read the Tibetan?

May any merit generated by on-line discussionBe dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

No objections at all. All I want to see is that the opinions being expressed about the writings of Phabongkhapa are based on the actual writings of Phabongkhapa and not what people have heard about the writings of Phabongkhapa. That's why I said this:

I will not allow the discussion on Phabongkhapa to continue until those relying on heresay go to the effort of reading the actual works being referred to.

Sorry, but I should have included the statement: "or translations thereof..."

Pabongkhka's letter to the Chinese General Lui CHungtang"Although in the land of Tibet there are many different tenets like that of Nyingma, Kugyu, Sakya, Gelugpa and so forth it is only the Gelug School which establishes the unmistaken view of emptiness and the Prasangika Madhyamika system which is the philosophy of Nagarjuna. It is not only the philosophical view but also in terms of meditation it is the perfect meditation devoid of laxity and torpor. As for its behaviour it is again pure as it is practiced in accordance with the vinaya teachings. Thus it is only the Gelug School which knows how to adopt the three: the view, the meditation, the behaviour and in fact the complete teaching of the Buddha as one integrated practice in the form of the stages of the path to enlightenment.

these days the views of all Sakyas, Kagyus, Nyingmas and so on are erroneous. They are not even Svatantra or Cittamatra, let alone the view of Prasanga Madhyamaka – meditating only the nihilist view like tirthikas and Hashang. If one upholds the nihilist view, the result is nothing other than going to Avichi hell. Since they can't recognize subtle lethargy, even their meditation is defective.

Still on this earth, many other faiths like Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, Comfucianism (lit Kong-tse) Bon and so on flourish and each of them claims their own system as the best. However, except in the teaching of the Buddha, all the others do not have the path to liberation. They do not even have the potential to abandon even one type of afflictive emotions. Even if they practice and uphold their faith in great hardship for a long time, it will simply open the gate of the lower realms and no positive result will be achieved at all from them. They are merely deceptive words showing what is not a path as a path.

In general there are many religions in this world. Every follower thinks that his own faith is the best. However, if we honestly examine, Christianity and Islam are barbarism and therefore are the worst and there is no other religion worse than these. The non-Buddhist systems like that of Kapila and Sankhya are slightly better than the aforementioned faiths but they do not have the path to liberation. They may undertake great hardships like self-immolation and jumping upon a trident but there is no path to liberation. They open the gate to the lower realms.

The so-called Bonpo is also not at all different from the other non-Buddhist faiths. Far from achieving liberation it opens the door to the lower realms. Without exception most of them fall into the unfathomable lower realms.

Therefore, in Tibet, except Tsongkhapa's philosophy, all others are mistaken. As such I can affirm that at present on this earth and beneath the sky it is only the refined gold, like Manjushri Tsongkhapa's system which is alone totally faultless in every aspect, be it the philosophical view, the meditation or the conduct. It is complete, profound and extensive and if one has the knowledge and the ability to practice this teaching properly then one will be able to attain Buddhahood within twelve human years or even in three years and three fortnights."

michaelb wrote:Pabongkhka's letter to the Chinese General Lui CHungtang"Although in the land of Tibet there are many different tenets like that of Nyingma, Kugyu, Sakya, Gelugpa and so forth it is only the Gelug School which establishes the unmistaken view of emptiness and the Prasangika Madhyamika system which is the philosophy of Nagarjuna. It is not only the philosophical view but also in terms of meditation it is the perfect meditation devoid of laxity and torpor. As for its behaviour it is again pure as it is practiced in accordance with the vinaya teachings. Thus it is only the Gelug School which knows how to adopt the three: the view, the meditation, the behaviour and in fact the complete teaching of the Buddha as one integrated practice in the form of the stages of the path to enlightenment.

these days the views of all Sakyas, Kagyus, Nyingmas and so on are erroneous. They are not even Svatantra or Cittamatra, let alone the view of Prasanga Madhyamaka – meditating only the nihilist view like tirthikas and Hashang. If one upholds the nihilist view, the result is nothing other than going to Avichi hell. Since they can't recognize subtle lethargy, even their meditation is defective.

Still on this earth, many other faiths like Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, Comfucianism (lit Kong-tse) Bon and so on flourish and each of them claims their own system as the best. However, except in the teaching of the Buddha, all the others do not have the path to liberation. They do not even have the potential to abandon even one type of afflictive emotions. Even if they practice and uphold their faith in great hardship for a long time, it will simply open the gate of the lower realms and no positive result will be achieved at all from them. They are merely deceptive words showing what is not a path as a path.

In general there are many religions in this world. Every follower thinks that his own faith is the best. However, if we honestly examine, Christianity and Islam are barbarism and therefore are the worst and there is no other religion worse than these. The non-Buddhist systems like that of Kapila and Sankhya are slightly better than the aforementioned faiths but they do not have the path to liberation. They may undertake great hardships like self-immolation and jumping upon a trident but there is no path to liberation. They open the gate to the lower realms.

The so-called Bonpo is also not at all different from the other non-Buddhist faiths. Far from achieving liberation it opens the door to the lower realms. Without exception most of them fall into the unfathomable lower realms.

Therefore, in Tibet, except Tsongkhapa's philosophy, all others are mistaken. As such I can affirm that at present on this earth and beneath the sky it is only the refined gold, like Manjushri Tsongkhapa's system which is alone totally faultless in every aspect, be it the philosophical view, the meditation or the conduct. It is complete, profound and extensive and if one has the knowledge and the ability to practice this teaching properly then one will be able to attain Buddhahood within twelve human years or even in three years and three fortnights."

So Pabongkha thought the other schools taught emptiness incorrectly and couldn't meditate - what a revelation!

jkhedrup, surely this is not what you are referring to. Can you give us a text name? I am interested to read it.

In Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand, Phabongkha Rinpoche attacks Bon for being evil and a path to the lower realms and quotes Jigten Sumgon, the Kadamapas, and Milarepa in doing so. (pg. 415-417)

It seems Phabongkha Rinpoche's opinion changed over time. In LPYH he also praises the Sakya for connecting the Gelug lineage to Shakyamuni.

And no Cone, I would like to see translated passages please.

EDIT

I hate when people 'move the goalposts' so I apologize, but michael's post doesn't necessarily imply crusade. I think most people following this thread would like to read Phabongkha Rinpoche writing 'burn their statues and force them to convert' or something similar.

Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.Through the qualities of meditating in that way,Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

This is one of several. In volume cha there is also mention of Dzogchen leading to hell and other statements about those who corrupt the doctrine. As I mentioned in another thread, my laptop fried and I am working from a tablet, so I do not have the tools to pursue this until I can get a new one, reorganize my files and electronic dictionary. But Cone has found the volume and seems to read Tibetan well and is eager to help. Malcolm also might be of assistance.

The above letter to the general does show Phabonkhapa's inconsistencies though, with the quote from rnam grol lag bcangs/ Liberation posted by Caz above.

One lasr thing. For those interested in these matters, try to learn to read basic Tibetan. Although the alphabet appears strabge at first it is not that difficult. You dont need a super high level to get benefit from it, with the dictionaries available now you can piece together at least basic ideas in the texts at a beginner level.

Especially Caz, you are young so it is definitely possible. Once you know it, you dont have to take my word for it, or anyone else's for that matter. There is so, so much that has not yet been translated.

In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,I must obtain control over my own mind. Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.-Atisha Dipamkarabrtsal ba'i bkhra drin

I'm afraid I'm not sure. I just dug it out of a load of old e-mails that I received back in the day when anyone was interested in this issue. I think I also wrongly said it was to the Chinese general, it was in fact sent to Nyu’u Tshalmo Krang. There are other letters sent to Lui Chunthang I have read but lost. These really are no longer of interest to me. I first mentioned Pabonkha in this thread as his sectarian intolerance and oppression of the Nyingmapas is established and well documented. Rather than going over very old arguments a far more interesting question is what do we do when we find our lineage lamas weren't perfect? Pretend they were, extolling their virtues as if the bad stuff never happened doesn't seem a solution. It just makes us look a bit cultish. Disregarding the whole lineage isn't an option either. So what? Maybe the responses here have answered the question for us. People may think Pabongkha was a perfect lama or a sectarian bigot under an evil influence. I don't care but people who want to hold an opinion about this do owe it to themselves to check as impartially as they are able.

In the document I linked to, which I believe is where the original for the translation MichaelB provided above resides, there are 219 pages of letters, etc.

So...I'm going through it when I get time, and when I identify something worth translating and posting, I'll try. I'm not that fast, though, and don't have ability to search PDF's by Tibetan. (Otherwise, it would be easy to just search out terms......oh, well.....)

It's nice to know, though, that as a Kagyupa I'm headed straight for Avici hell!

May any merit generated by on-line discussionBe dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

Let me balance my above comments with: while philosophical disputes and wild assertions are to be expected, the destruction of monasteries in the name of Pabongkha, which did happen, is totally unacceptable and absolutely tragic.

michaelb wrote:Pabongkhka's letter to the Chinese General Lui CHungtang"Although in the land of Tibet there are many different tenets like that of Nyingma, Kugyu, Sakya, Gelugpa and so forth it is only the Gelug School which establishes the unmistaken view of emptiness and the Prasangika Madhyamika system which is the philosophy of Nagarjuna. It is not only the philosophical view but also in terms of meditation it is the perfect meditation devoid of laxity and torpor. As for its behaviour it is again pure as it is practiced in accordance with the vinaya teachings. Thus it is only the Gelug School which knows how to adopt the three: the view, the meditation, the behaviour and in fact the complete teaching of the Buddha as one integrated practice in the form of the stages of the path to enlightenment.

these days the views of all Sakyas, Kagyus, Nyingmas and so on are erroneous. They are not even Svatantra or Cittamatra, let alone the view of Prasanga Madhyamaka – meditating only the nihilist view like tirthikas and Hashang. If one upholds the nihilist view, the result is nothing other than going to Avichi hell. Since they can't recognize subtle lethargy, even their meditation is defective.

Still on this earth, many other faiths like Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, Comfucianism (lit Kong-tse) Bon and so on flourish and each of them claims their own system as the best. However, except in the teaching of the Buddha, all the others do not have the path to liberation. They do not even have the potential to abandon even one type of afflictive emotions. Even if they practice and uphold their faith in great hardship for a long time, it will simply open the gate of the lower realms and no positive result will be achieved at all from them. They are merely deceptive words showing what is not a path as a path.

In general there are many religions in this world. Every follower thinks that his own faith is the best. However, if we honestly examine, Christianity and Islam are barbarism and therefore are the worst and there is no other religion worse than these. The non-Buddhist systems like that of Kapila and Sankhya are slightly better than the aforementioned faiths but they do not have the path to liberation. They may undertake great hardships like self-immolation and jumping upon a trident but there is no path to liberation. They open the gate to the lower realms.

The so-called Bonpo is also not at all different from the other non-Buddhist faiths. Far from achieving liberation it opens the door to the lower realms. Without exception most of them fall into the unfathomable lower realms.

Therefore, in Tibet, except Tsongkhapa's philosophy, all others are mistaken. As such I can affirm that at present on this earth and beneath the sky it is only the refined gold, like Manjushri Tsongkhapa's system which is alone totally faultless in every aspect, be it the philosophical view, the meditation or the conduct. It is complete, profound and extensive and if one has the knowledge and the ability to practice this teaching properly then one will be able to attain Buddhahood within twelve human years or even in three years and three fortnights."

Aww come on this isn't even surprising really chest banging about your own sect being the best, would it be to hard to find some of these polemic articles from other masters of the time or before Gelug or otherwise ?

Its far different from Burning down monastery's or desecrating statues mind you.

Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Tom wrote:Let me balance my above comments with: while philosophical disputes and wild assertions are to be expected, the destruction of monasteries in the name of Pabongkha, which did happen, is totally unacceptable and absolutely tragic.

Its one thing to destroy a monastery in someone's name...There are many extremists among students of all sects even today, Why I recently heard to the story of one old monk who was left to wallow in the mud for 10 minutes (for reasons better left unsaid) it appears the passers by ( Monks ) forgot their Bodhisattva vows in the name of someone of the other.

But that reflects badly on them not on whoever's speech they justify their delusions with.

Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

JKhedrup wrote:This is one of several. In volume cha there is also mention of Dzogchen leading to hell and other statements about those who corrupt the doctrine. As I mentioned in another thread, my laptop fried and I am working from a tablet, so I do not have the tools to pursue this until I can get a new one, reorganize my files and electronic dictionary. But Cone has found the volume and seems to read Tibetan well and is eager to help. Malcolm also might be of assistance.

The above letter to the general does show Phabonkhapa's inconsistencies though, with the quote from rnam grol lag bcangs/ Liberation posted by Caz above.

One lasr thing. For those interested in these matters, try to learn to read basic Tibetan. Although the alphabet appears strabge at first it is not that difficult. You dont need a super high level to get benefit from it, with the dictionaries available now you can piece together at least basic ideas in the texts at a beginner level.

Especially Caz, you are young so it is definitely possible. Once you know it, you dont have to take my word for it, or anyone else's for that matter. There is so, so much that has not yet been translated.

What ways of learning Tibetan are there Ven Khedrup ?

Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

"Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, [...] favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest."

Caz wrote:But that reflects badly on them not on whoever's speech they justify their delusions with.

Really? So if I said: "Buddha told me for you to kill that guy over there" and you, due to your delusion (ie believeing I am correct), went over there and killed the guy then I bear no responsibility? I'm not talking about karmic consequences here, just plain old responsibility.

michaelb wrote:"Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, [...] favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest."

Tom wrote:Let me balance my above comments with: while philosophical disputes and wild assertions are to be expected, the destruction of monasteries in the name of Pabongkha, which did happen, is totally unacceptable and absolutely tragic.

Its one thing to destroy a monastery in someone's name...There are many extremists among students of all sects even today, Why I recently heard to the story of one old monk who was left to wallow in the mud for 10 minutes (for reasons better left unsaid) it appears the passers by ( Monks ) forgot their Bodhisattva vows in the name of someone of the other.

But that reflects badly on them not on whoever's speech they justify their delusions with.

Agreed... that is why I am interested in reading these damning documents.