00:00:10 was zmacs eine?
00:00:19 I thought that Zwei was Emacs inside? ;)
00:00:33 zwei was eine initially
00:01:27 Fade: http://paste.lisp.org/display/116742
00:01:56 Xach: I don't know for sure. googling seems to suggest that zmacs was the editor and zwei a "collection" of useful routines
00:02:05 sort of a library
00:02:07 jeti: thanks
00:02:12 lichtblau: ^^
00:02:59 http://jrm-code-project.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/lambda/zwei/
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00:04:03 fe[nl]ix: Ah, google has helped me, too. ZWEI is an ancestor of zmacs.
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00:06:46 Hmm, anyone happen to have sbcl-1.0.37 for darwin amd64?
00:06:53 *Xach* checks sourceforge
00:10:26 what's the fastest way to get running with aquamacs/slime/paredit/etc ?
00:10:38 this tutorial seems to be too old: http://lispm.dyndns.org/news?ID=NEWS-2008-08-27-1
00:10:57 for sbcl i mean
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00:11:48 install quicklisp and use that to install slime-helper
00:12:01 oh, no lisp yet?
00:13:14 macports, or whatever is popular on OSX these days should net you a running sbcl.
00:13:38 Though it's really not that hard to grab a binary SBCL and the source of the latest and compile yourself.
00:14:05 Fade: i've got sbcl installed and slime helper too
00:14:08 is that all i need?
00:14:45 devinus_: if you want paredit, you have to get and install it too. it has good directions.
00:15:28 So slime helper will install slime ?
00:15:31 (load (expand-file-name "~/quicklisp/slime-helper.el"))
00:15:38 it told me to put that into my .emacs
00:15:53 hrm, am i in emacs question territory here?
00:16:06 setting up slime is in scope.
00:16:11 May I never again have the idea to copy a directory recursively.
00:16:32 ok, how do I test that slime is ... loaded once i use that snippet?
00:16:35 devinus_: you also need to (setq inferior-lisp-program "sbcl")
00:16:41 devinus_: M-x slime
00:16:57 I guess shelling out to cp would be easier.
00:16:57 hrrrm.
00:17:09 probably much better idea too.
00:17:39 w00t! i've got slime
00:17:59 enjoy!
00:19:02 ok, the first thing i notice is SLIME doesnt really act like a readline program
00:19:14 what's the equivalent to using up/down arrows for history?
00:19:17 slime is an IDE
00:19:23 devinus_: M-p and M-n in the slime repl.
00:19:28 nice
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00:22:35 Is there somewhere a comparison (both user-level functionalities, and implementation-wise) of the various emacsen such as Eine, Zwei, Zmacs, Hemlock, etc?
00:22:43 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@88.244.225.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
00:23:05 Or, are we missing any feature in GNU emacs?
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00:23:46 sellout- [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
00:24:02 well, the first free can't run for legal reasons.
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00:28:06 Really?!
00:28:16 *Xach* wants to add a paredit-helper or similar, or maybe an elisp-goodies project
00:28:28 drewc suggested redshank too
00:31:21 both'd be nice
00:31:37 pjb: there's no copyright assignment for the code afaict.
00:31:52 -!- Taiyou` [~Taiyou@141.117.174.147] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
00:31:53 or it's reserved
00:32:07 Right, Zwei is still licensed (royalty-free) but without copy right.
00:32:26 i'm just reading through the zmacs.lisp file
00:32:36 this is a real soup of casing conventions.
00:32:44 some of it is all upcased, and some of it is mixed.
00:32:57 The sources are -*- base:8 -*- :-)
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00:36:17 that's also mixed, depending on the file. :)
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00:38:10 Well, one obvious feature, is that emacs lacks the readtable thing -*- readtable:ZL -*- ...
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00:38:42 was that to switch the context of a file between a lispmachine lisp reader and a common lisp reader?
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00:40:26 Yes.
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00:40:45 mail?
00:41:49 there's no load file in this directory.
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00:50:52 Hmm, anyone have ccl 1.6 handy? what does (merge-pathnames "tmp/x.txt" "tmp/y.txt") return for you?
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00:51:04 *Xach* eyes sellout, rme
00:51:11 *Xach* eyes gz also
00:52:21 mine is version 1.5
00:52:32 homie: I have 1.5 also, so the answer there is not all that interesting to me.
00:52:55 #P"tmp/tmp/x.txt"
00:52:57 good
00:53:23 #P"tmp/tmp/x.txt"
00:53:23 rme: That seems intuitively wrong to me. I expected #p"tmp/y.txt". Is my intuition wrong?
00:53:34 err, no...
00:53:45 I expected #p"tmp/y.txt" or similar
00:53:53 the repeating of "tmp", at any rate, was really not expected.
00:54:09 devinus- [~devinus@cpe-66-68-82-202.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp
00:54:19 sbcl 1.0.44 returns the same
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00:54:50 Ok.
00:54:53 *Xach* ponders
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00:55:10 Xach: I don't know. I would have to ponder also.
00:55:24 My actual problem is slightly different.
00:55:34 *Xach* tries to put together a better test case to demonstrate
00:56:47 aha, it's actually the fact that (merge-pathnames #p"tmp/") returns a relative pathname on ccl, when I assume it will be absolute.
00:57:04 *Xach* adjusts his assumptions
00:58:22 Can you suggest a good way to turn #p"tmp/" into an absolute pathname on ClozureCL? It might not already exist.
00:58:36 truename?
00:58:56 rme: that returns an error if the pathname does not exist
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00:59:11 signals, rather
01:00:15 (merge-pathnames #p"tmp/" (truename *default-pathname-defaults*)) might do the trick.
01:00:17 how about ccl:full-pathname?
01:00:42 *Xach* wonders if there's any harm in an early (setf *d-p-d* (truename *d-p-d*))
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01:00:59 rme: I'd like to avoid using an implementation function if possible.
01:01:27 *Xach* finds out there isn't much of a contract for *d-p-d* in the spec
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01:04:28 Xach: have you looked into the ASDF sources? There's a safe truename that Fare wrote.
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01:05:02 I've been meaning to print out and study the sources.
01:05:13 14 pages of four-up code, though.
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01:05:46 I'm not entirely sure what you want to do here.... I need to scroll back. hang on...
01:06:03 weird
01:06:05 rpg: i assumed that (merge-pathnames foo) would unconditionally return an absolute pathname.
01:06:09 there is no false in CL?
01:06:11 rpg: on clozurecl it doesn't.
01:06:18 devinus-: incorrect. how'd you get that idea?
01:06:25 t
01:06:31 f => bork
01:06:41 -!- Taiyou` [~Taiyou@141.117.174.147] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
01:06:46 or am i missing something?
01:06:57 are nil and '() used as the only falsy values?
01:07:00 Xach: So you want to take an arbitrary pathname and get a truename equivalent without hoisting an error?
01:07:30 devinus-: nil is the only false value, and '() and () are other ways to write it.
01:07:40 ah...weird
01:07:46 but cool i guess
01:07:49 devinus-: Not especially weird.
01:08:04 rpg: right. a relative pathname specifically.
01:08:05 The description is confusing me --- you seemed to be saying I want a reliable way to take a relative pathname and turn it into an absolute one
01:08:18 That is what I would like to do.
01:08:29 I'm not sure what a relative truename would be...
01:08:40 *rpg* is not firing on all cylinders today...
01:09:06 rpg: if i start lisp in etc, and i i have the relative pathname "passwd", i would like to get "/etc/passwd", except the relative pathname might not already exist.
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01:09:25 Xach: So relative to CWD?
01:09:42 I'm not sure CWD is a meaningful concept in the CL spec...
01:09:52 rpg: there's no requirement that *d-p-d* is an absolute pathname that's the same as the directory in which you start Lisp, but that's a widespread convention.
01:10:26 Xach: I suppose one could try to pass in CWD, but that would require parsing CL arguments which is.... not portable...
01:10:41 rpg: I'm going to use (truename *d-p-d*) and see how well that works.
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01:14:21 *Xach* is winning so far
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01:21:01 (merge-pathnames #p"foo/" (truename *d-p-d*)) ?
01:22:01 rpg: yes, except (setf *d-p-d* (truename *d-p-d*)) early to avoid that.
01:22:16 woo hoo, fixes quicklisp relative path installs in ccl and cmucl
01:22:21 *Xach* commits
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01:23:36 Xach: Maybe I'm missing something, but can't *d-p-d* at least theoretically be ill-formed (e.g., no :name, just :type "lisp")?
01:24:24 rpg: Yes. I'm going for de facto wins at the moment.
01:24:28 As I said, maybe I'm missing something but I don't see why we should trust that (truename *default-pathname-defaults*) won't raise a file-error...
01:24:49 Xach: No way to start with *load-truename* and navigate to where you want to go, the way ASDF does?
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01:25:28 rpg: I thought about that, but this is for the install step, and I would expect as a user that a relative path is relative to where I started Lisp and not relative to where my downloaded file happened to be.
01:25:47 or if I set *d-p-d* explicitly, relative to there.
01:25:48 clhs ~r
01:25:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cba.htm
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01:26:15 Xach: No potential to evilly set an environment variable to CWD and then read it?
01:26:28 (i.e., from surrounding script).
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01:26:39 I suppose not if you want to be portable over windows + unixen
01:26:44 rpg: no surrounding script for quicklisp. it's a single CL file you cl:load
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01:27:22 *Xach* has already won, will wait to fix theoretical problems when angry users complain
01:27:22 (probe-file ".") ?
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01:27:37 rme: that's a good one too.
01:27:47 Hmm. What is ~r supposed to do when given a float?
01:27:52 rme: works-p on windows?
01:28:21 probe-file trick is very slick..
01:28:54 It works with ccl on Windows, at least.
01:29:15 I often wish that CL had more robust interaction with the OS, but in the Good Old Days, CL might have /been/ the OS...
01:30:03 *Xach* is not looking forward to wrasslin' with emacs and implementations differing views on how (user-homedir-pathname) and ~ differ.
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01:32:33 Why would (user-homedir-pathname) and ~ differ?
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01:34:24 rtoym: Windows fun
01:34:43 Oh. Yeah, that could be messy.
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01:41:05 BobTheWikipedian [4b10e7b9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.16.231.185] has joined #lisp
01:41:17 hey guys...got a (hopefully quick) question
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01:41:54 *Xach* leans forward in eager anticipation!
01:42:04 i get the warning "A1 is neither declared nor bound, it will be treated as if it were declared SPECIAL"
01:42:35 when compiling in clisp
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01:42:38 Don't use setq/setf in the repl on variables that you didn't already create with defvar or defparameter.
01:42:48 or in a file, either.
01:42:55 what would i type to define the variable?
01:43:02 (defvar a1) ?
01:43:07 Old tutorials and books use that style. No need to follow them.
01:43:24 BobTheWikipedian: More likely (defvar *a1* "some value")
01:43:51 so instead of (setq a1 (read)) i'll have (defvar a1 (read))
01:44:18 BobTheWikipedian: The first time, yes. After that you can use SETQ.
01:44:26 ah thanks
01:44:29 Don't forget the earmuffs!
01:44:51 Also, IMO "setq" is a fossil -- you just use it to show that you know the history of lisp. You can just use SETF everywhere.... ;-)
01:45:10 *Xach* enjoyed getting together with all the fossils at ILC
01:45:12 *rpg* meant "one" where he used "you."
01:45:20 *drdo* uses setq
01:45:25 forsooth
01:45:34 Zounds!
01:46:21 BobTheWikipedian: Is that form at the toplevel of a file, or is it inside a function?
01:46:27 It seems that all (most?) implementations will print out part of the result of (format t "~r" 1234.0) before signaling an error.
01:46:39 it's at the top
01:46:47 *rpg* wishes he could remember what he looked like before the flesh melted away and the bones were replaced with stone.
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01:49:20 looks like that's working beautifully thanks guys
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02:08:27 what do I need to do to make asdf do make correctly on windows?
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02:09:11 ; $ cd c:/LISP/clsql/uffi/; make
02:09:15 that doesn't work
02:09:28 Maybe you need to get a more windowsy computer.
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02:11:41 lol
02:12:55 syntard_: Is the problem with ASDF, or is it simply that the make doesn't work. ISTR needing to do a little configuration on my copy of CLSQL to make it work properly.
02:13:20 rpg: i don't know maybe I don't have make either
02:13:36 rpg: which make would work
02:13:39 syntard_: OMG. Hadn't even thought of that.
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02:14:13 I have no idea whether cygwin, mingw, or heaven-knows-what. I'm afraid you should probably ask on the CLSQL mailing list, unless Google can save you.
02:14:21 rpg: i think ccl expects .dll to be produced, cygwin's make produces .so
02:14:43 yeah
02:14:53 syntard_: sorry. I understand ASDF pretty well, but Windows is a mystery.
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02:16:25 i'll try mingw
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02:22:23 is the difference merely the extention?
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02:26:06 Fade: I don't know
02:36:06 For all I know there's a native windows make...
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02:45:35 eeeeeaggggghhhhhhh....
02:46:12 "compiler bug!! occurred in assemble-lap at 15 bit."
02:47:46 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
02:47:54 does that mean my lisp file is too large?
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02:49:04 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp
02:49:25 or....have i found an actual compiler bug?
02:49:26 Or maybe that clisp is broken.
02:49:26 BobTheWikipedian: what CL implementation are you using?
02:49:47 2.37 for windows
02:49:53 2.37 is very, very, very old
02:50:04 BobTheWikipedian: You're pretty much on your own in #lisp when on clisp. The clisp mailing lists or some such might be better for support :)
02:50:19 nearly 5 years old
02:50:25 yikes
02:50:40 is there a #clisp channel?
02:51:05 Make a test case.
02:51:10 BobTheWikipedian: no. this isn't a bad place but not a lot of clisp users.
02:51:13 Definitely update clisp, though.
02:51:29 i downloaded it today....
02:51:33 BobTheWikipedian: yeah, that is so old, how did you find it? on a floppy disk out behind a university?
02:51:39 Where's pjb when you need him? :-)
02:51:51 i got it from....let me check...
02:52:08 gigamonkeys.com
02:52:17 aha! gigamonkey, you bastard!
02:52:39 is gigamonkey no longer maintained
02:52:42 BobTheWikipedian: he or someone like him needs to update his website
02:52:50 gigamonkey: Fix your page, dammit.
02:53:05 lol
02:53:26 BobTheWikipedian: Get a new version from clisp.sourceforge.net. (I think that's the place.)
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02:53:48 alright, do i need to remove 2.37 before installing the latest version?
02:55:15 Nobody has any comments about what ~r is supposed to do when given a float?
02:55:20 also-- not to look like an idiot, but i see no link to download it on that page
02:55:33 *rtoym* guesses he'll have to brave c.l.l for a discussion.
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02:56:22 rtoym: "The argument should be an integer" implies that behaviour is otherwise undefined, doesn't it?
02:57:11 Oh, I missed that.
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02:57:49 oh i see a link for version 2.49 at softpedia though....
02:58:00 BobTheWikipedian: Are you running a linux?
02:58:09 win 7
02:58:12 A bit confusing, though. It says ~D is like ~10R. But ~D accepts floats, and uses ~A instead.
02:58:12 32 bit
02:58:46 I thought CLISP was up to 4.x?
02:59:14 Sorry, no. 2.49 on ports, too...
03:00:01 If you are just getting started, and on Windows, have you considered lisp works?
03:00:12 I think there's a free trial version...
03:00:24 will it run on my flash drive?
03:00:30 rtoym: is it the radix maybe ?
03:00:49 rtoym: if ~r gets a float in ccl, it prints it with princ.
03:00:58 that's probably just traditional.
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03:01:12 BobTheWikipedian: I dunno. I don't use Windows myself. I just know that a lot of the windows folks use lispworks, and it has an IDE which might help you break in.
03:01:18 BobTheWikipedian: YMMV.
03:01:34 BobTheWikipedian: Maybe you need the CYGWIN package (wrt no download link)
03:02:06 ccl + slime I thought was the recommended for windows. Not near as easy to set up as lw of course :)
03:02:13 well i'm using visual studio to edit and it's working alright so far; using a batch file to compile and run the file
03:02:32 BobTheWikipedian: Sounds painful (:
03:02:40 heh not really
03:02:50 BobTheWikipedian: well, if you only knew...
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03:03:01 BobTheWikipedian: you are missing 7/8ths of the magic!
03:03:14 i learned to program qbasic programs in qbasic.exe and java programs in edit.exe
03:03:24 BobTheWikipedian: we all have things to overcome in life!
03:03:35 BobTheWikipedian: It is a method that works, but as Xach says you are missing out on all the fun.
03:03:54 lol
03:04:15 BobTheWikipedian: You know the niceness visualstudio gives you for F#? interactive development etc. etc. THAT stuff. and amazing source code lookupery.
03:04:24 schmrkc: i set it up today and quicklisp made it almost easy. still a little ways to go.
03:04:33 ccl + slime on windows, that is
03:04:36 f#....lol...i've never even seen anyone write or use f#....
03:05:10 Xach: Cools. I really know nothing about windows. Nice that quicklisp works fineish there too. Having been on quicklisp for a week or two now I have no idea how one ever got by using asdf-install :)
03:05:16 BobTheWikipedian: Oh ok :(
03:05:32 visual studio and jgrasp are my primary code ides
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03:05:41 notepad is next...lol
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03:06:07 BobTheWikipedian: You type text there in the editor window, and you have an interactive prompt window. You can type stuff in the interactive prompt, or evaluate parts of the stuff in your editor buffer. etc. quite the nice. visual studio is catching up in some ways.
03:06:17 although i would probably appreciate some parenthesis matching feature...
03:06:37 i can't remember if jgrasp will match parentheses...i know it matches braces
03:06:38 lisp without paredit :S
03:07:00 i'll try it and see if it does right now actually....
03:07:49 BobTheWikipedian: I don't actually use LispWorks or windows, but I know Windows developers who do, and who like it. It should install smoothly, and the personal version is free. www.lispworks.com
03:07:58 *Xach* got hunchentoot running on ccl for windows with the usual quicklisp alacricity
03:08:21 BobTheWikipedian: I'm not trying to sell anything; just would like you to have a more pleasant time getting started (and not have to wrestle with too many side-issues other than CL).
03:09:19 heh, looks like jgrasp'll match parentheses...woot
03:09:40 goodbye visual studio, hello jgrasp
03:10:20 yeah rpg i understand...my computer is quite bogged down though and my memory shipment is in the mail....
03:10:40 BobTheWikipedian: kill utorrent.
03:10:47 ?
03:10:49 oh
03:11:05 BobTheWikipedian: My experience from the wife's computer is that utorrent is always hogging *all* resources.
03:11:20 i don't even know what utorrent is
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03:11:53 avg and firefox are hogging my resources
03:11:56 BobTheWikipedian: Oh ok. It's a torrent client.
03:11:58 and windows...
03:12:05