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counter-frames

Disclaimer: This post is based on the chapter of the same name in “The White Racial Frame” (2010) by White American sociologist Joe R, Feagin.

Counter-frames are those that counter the White racial frame in America. They give Americans a way of looking at themselves and their society outside of White racism.

White sociologist Joe R. Feagin says there are five main counter-frames:

Thomas Jefferson

Liberty-and-justice frame – Used by Whites to overthrow the British. It is expressed in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Gettysburg Address. Freedom, equality and justice for all – regardless of race. Most Americans hold this frame, but use it in different ways. Blacks, Natives and anti-racist Whites take it seriously. Most Whites only give it lip service: they will say that society should not give advantages to one race over another, but will not give up White privilege or support policies that threaten it, like busing, affirmative action, reparations or treaty rights. This is the main frame used by anti-racist Whites, like abolitionists and civil rights reformers.

W.E.B. Du Bois

Black American counter-frame – Used by Blacks to live in a country that constantly dehumanizes them. Strongly anti-racist. Features:

Anti-racism

Liberty-and-justice frame

Whites as hypocritical

Stereotypes are false

Black is beautiful

Black power

Afrocentricity

Russell Means

Native American counter-frame – Almost the same as the Black counter-frame. Like Blacks:

Natives have dealt with Whites for hundreds of years.

Whites have torn them from their land and went out of their way to destroy their families and cultures.

Natives have the same issues of police brutality, racial profiling, bad schools, weak civil rights protection, high rates of poverty and crime, etc.

Features:

Anti-racism

Liberty-and-justice frame

Whites as hypocritical, dangerous and untrustworthy

Stereotypes are false

Red is beautiful (not called that)

Red power

Treaty rights

Whites as despiritualizing the universe just as they dehumanize people of colour.

UN’s Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples

Richard Aoki

Asian American counter-frame – Most Asians are first and second generation Americans. That means many have a strong home-culture frame that they can use instead of (or along with) the White racial frame. Apart from Japanese Americans, their counter-frames tend to be weakly anti-racist. Not because they do not experience racism, but because many do not have a long history of dealing with Whites like Blacks and Natives do. Lacking a strong anti-racist counter-frame makes it hard to stand up to racism, cowing many of them into accepting much of the White racial frame and White folkways, becoming, in effect, honorary Whites.

José Ángel Gutiérrez

Latino American counter-frame – much like Asian Americans, many are first or second generation Americans with a strong home-culture frame they can lean on and without a long history of racism to inform them. Apart from Chicanos (Mexican Americans), their counter-frames are weakly anti-racist. Many Latinos, especially middle and upper-class ones, assimilate and accept the White racial frame and White folkways. Others present themselves as “White Hispanics” – White by race, Hispanic by culture, being careful to distance themselves from Blacks while hanging onto most of their culture. There is a strong anti-racist Chicano counter-frame that is much like the Black and Native ones.

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My $.02
I think the Asian and Latino counter frames are more anti-black that anit-white. Those groups don’t have “honorary white” status, nor do they seek it. They’ve got their own culture and seem to perform well when left alone.

Also, they make less use of the Welfare system than white or blacks, and their independance is greater because of it.

Apart from Japanese Americans, their counter-frames tend to be weakly anti-racist.

Ugh, I hate this. This is especially true for Asian immigrants. Almost all the time, when I talk to Asian immigrants about white racism, they just dismiss the severity of it and say “Well, it’s their country”. So I’m not American? What about Natives? Who do they think they are, deciding who’s American and who’s not? Asian immigrants tend to accept white domination. They’re so servile, it makes me cringe.

Asian-Americans tend to understand way better how racism rolls, but I have to be more careful. Most of them are whitewashed to varying degrees and will defend whites before they even give a thought to other minorities.

I haven’t heard of the term “red power”. There are Native American flags that have a red, yellow, black and white dot around it to represent the four races. My understanding is that Native Americans try to respect all humanity – as much as they can – while still being disrespected and disenfranchised by oppressors.

[…] Counter-frames are those that counter the white racial frame in America. They give Americans a way of looking at themselves and their society outside of white racism. Sociologist Joe R. Feagin says… […]

Blog Raju, it think is possible to be “weakly anti-racist” and somewhat racist at the same time. In fact, even if one is strongly anti-racist, one could either be very weakly racist or strongly racist — they are different concepts.

Abagond said before that American blacks are racist to various degrees. That does not preclude them from being strongly anti-racist at the same time. Most whites are racist to varying degrees. Yet some are strongly anti-racist (close to the first frame), and some are not anit-racist at all (those with the white racial frame). Racist and anti-racist are not opposites of each other.

I must agree that a large number of Asian-Americans are weakly anti-racist albeit somewhat racist at the same time.

I can’t believe that someone would call themselves an Asian-American and be blind to the daily abuses that Asian immigrants, all the way down to 5th and 6th generation Asian-Americans encounter, and to varying degrees “accept” from whites. Any superficial study of Asian-American history and culture would reveal gazillions of these cases. Instead of asking what they are, you could ask yourself “why am I not aware of them?” We have even discussed many of them on this blog before.

I probably would not call them “servile” as Kiwi did. Maybe it is the perception of some recent 1st generation immigrants that they are some kind of “guest” in the country and therefore need to abide by the existing system, including acceptance, or at least toleration of the existing white power structure. I wouldn’t call that servile. They are passively accepting, at least not actively resisting. But after a period of time, that should change when they stop thinking of themselves as guests in a society, but members. The 1.5- generation or the 2nd generation should definitely feel that way (that they are members of society, not guests). I could see why a 2nd – 3rd generation Asian American might perceive the prior generation as a bit servile in their attitudes, but I wouldn’t use that term personally.

And if you are not aware of “white folkways”, then it sounds like you might consider learning more about the difference between white history vs. white-washed history. I suspect that what some may call “white folkways”, you might have assumed that they were simply American folkways (or things that Americans do). Black people (and many Asian, Native and Latino American) would not do that. Their definition of “American folkways” is not equivalent to “white folkways”.

@Ames,
There are as many frames and counter frames as there are people. I think the past few posts focus on racial counter frames. There are gender frames, age frames, sexual orientation frames, etc. Disabled persons have a very different frame of US society than able-bodied.

I think the categories that Abagond proposed are very very broad simplified categories. I think a recently arrived Mexican-American would think differently from the a Mexican-American who traces their origins back to when Arizona and Texas were part of Mexico, There is a definite difference in Asian-Americans whose families came before WWII and those that came after 1965. There is also a difference between ethnic groups, and whether they came to the USA for higher education, as low level labour, or as refugees. There is no one frame fits all.

So don’t think of them as a single factual frame that accurately represents what is going on. Think of them as a rough outline of a model to analyze race relations in the USA.

Just a few examples. South Asians are stereotyped as Perpetual Foreigners, too.

“Let’s give a welcome to Macaca, here. Welcome to America…” – George Allen to an American-born Indian

One time, my immigrant cousin applied for a job, but when the white employers found out she had American citizenship, they suddenly had no more interest in her. The understanding around here is that Asian immigrant labor is cheaper than native or white American labor. If white employers know that they will not get away with paying an Asian employee less, they have no reason to hire them. For that reason, Asians have lower wages than whites with the same qualifications, and a higher unemployment rate.

White Americans are paid more than people of color at all levels of education. So much for bootstraps. My Indian friends have wrapped their heads around this. Why can’t you?

I know Asians well enough to conclude that they would never tolerate domination by any other race, let alone accept it. Only whites are given a pass by Asians. If you met some of the Asian immigrants in my family, you would see how much contempt East Asians have for darker people. If America were dominated by blacks, I’m sure Asians would be much more militant about fighting racism. The same goes for Arabs, Persians, and Indians. My mother told me how her coworkers of those backgrounds always talked about how the natives of those countries prize whiter, lighter beauty and look down on darker people. All societies in the world value lighter skin over darker skin. White supremacy has only exacerbated this millenia-old phenomenon through colonialism. So yes, it is servility.

You forgot to mention the Arab-American or Middle Eastern American counter frame.

Even though most American Muslims are Asian and recent immigrants, they have a very strong anti-racist counter-frame, in fact I think American Muslims played an important role in the struggle for racial equality.

I would say that African Americans and American Muslims have the strongest anti-racist counter-frame.

You can find the occasional Muslim that thinks he or she is on the white side but then as they get older, they wise up like Cenk Uygur, who used to be a racist conservative himself, and is now considered a cultural marxist.

Also as far as “Asian-Americans” are concerned, you gotta remember that Asia is the most diverse continent in the world, so there are Armenians,Georgians and Russians who also happen to be Asian but consider themselves white.

Kiwi, we are talking about Asians who were educated in Asia, ie, the 1st generation, not the 1.5 or 2nd or 3rd generation, right? I have read many of the textbooks written for primary school and secondary school students in Taiwan and Hong Kong, just to get an idea of the the world perspective they are taught. I also did Asian-American studies classes in university to study how Asian-Americans get colonized by white society, culture and education.

I know that Asian Americans who were born and raised in East Asia would at least be aware of the effect of domination by white people, or even other outsiders, given the history of the Japanese around WWII and before.

By the time an Asian-American has become educated in the USA, he has been brainwashed to a certain degree. They start to think that whites are somehow better, and by identifying more with white, they are somehow, less black.

I find your statement of servility to be contradictive. If they are not willing to accept white domination, how can they be servile (while implies that they do accept it, at least superficially)? I still believe it is not a matter of servility, but a matter of perceiving oneself as a guest in society that allows them NOT to accept domination by other races, while simultaneously yielding to the existing white power structure. So, I will respectfully agree to disagree (and disagree quite strongly) on this point.

Even in the brutal anti-Chinese violence of the 1880s-1890s, they were not servile. They stood up to white people and got killed for it. From the 1890s – 1940s Asian-Americans were not servile. They took their grievances all the way to the Supreme Court (and won sometimes, lost other times). In no way were the 1st generation immigrants simply “servile”. And I don’t believe they are servile in the 2000s either.

The Philippines, Taiwan, sections of China, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Malaysia, Singapore, Burma (Myanmar), Indonesia, Macau, HK, East Timor, not to mention India, Bangladesh, Pakistan and Sri Lanka have all yielded to foreign domination in recent history. Certainly most people in Asia are capable of it and tolerated and accepted it.

You also know that Chinese immigrants have settled in the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) in Africa. In the past they settled in Jamaica, the Seychelles, Trinidad, etc. They are living and working places that are NOT white majority and while adjusting to the local culture, they are not simply servile to the majority population.

I said Asians are indeed tolerant, if not accepting of white domination. They only protest when it gets really bad, like any sane person would (ex: lynching). However, there is servility towards more subtle oppression (ex: bamboo ceiling, stereotyping)

They are living and working places that are NOT white majority and while adjusting to the local culture, they are not simply servile to the majority population.

They do not adjust to the local culture. They want nothing to do with blacks. On the other hand, they have no qualms adjusting to whites. Of course they’re not servile towards blacks. That honor is reserved for whites.

I know lots of Asian immigrants, especially where I live, and their views are deeply tainted with white supremacy. One time, while I was looking at a photo of Serena Williams on the computer, a classmate from Taiwan looked and said, “Wow. That’s your taste? She looks like a man.” Another classmate from Hong Kong also looked and said “Ew. She looks like a monkey.” Asians have adopted the white frame worldwide, complete with stereotypes of other minorities. This is an aspect of America’s white cultural empire, courtesy of Hollywood and American TV. The majority of the Chinese I know hate the Japanese, and are open about it with me. Strangely, they don’t ***** or moan about the British or French burning down the Summer Palace in China, or the European soldiers desecrating the Forbidden City’s relics. They don’t whine about white people taking over China. Only Japan gets bashed, even though they’re no longer a threat. White Western society buys up cheap Chinese labor, a result of imperialism, but the Chinese I know don’t complain. Why is that?

Your experience is your experience. No one can say that you have not experienced what you experienced.

I have seen Asian Americans act fawningly in front of whites, esp. in the upper middle-class suburbs which have large numbers of Asians with advanced degrees.
I will agree that *some* Asian-Americans act fawningly in front of whites (maybe this is what you mean by “servile”?). My father was like that. It is not exactly the same as being servile and it does not necessarily apply to the wide full spectrum of Asian Americans TODAY nor to Asian-Americans across the country nor to all periods of history.

I think the East Coast is a little different from the West Coast in certain respects. In the East Coast coast suburbs with large numbers of university-educated or advanced degreed Asians, there are also large numbers of Jews, which are a little bit different from other whites. West Coast suburbs with a high percentage of Asian-Americans will have a low percentage of jews. Not so in the East Coast. If an educated upper middle class community is 30% Asian, it will probably be 35-40% Jewish.

Maybe it is also my experience which suggests that
– Jews are not simply whites that hide their non-Anglo identity to pass as white. They are something like “almost white” and almost pass, but they do keep a separate identity from Anglos to some extent.
– Asian-Americans in the East are in some respects in competition with Jews. So, they cannot afford to be too servile, esp. in competition with subsets of whites such as Jews. I am sure that the realization of over acceptance of Jews compared to Asians at the Ivy leagues does not motivate Asians to be servile. I see the highest rate of fawning behavior from Asians with wealthy or powerful Anglo types.

I stand by your experience, but I also stand by mine. Please realize that your experience is just your experience. It may not represent what happens in all parts of the country or among different classes of ethnic groups.

“Not because they do not experience racism, but because they do not have a long history of dealing with whites like blacks and Natives do.”

Great post – as usual – but I would say that this is a little simplistic. The Asian experience of racism is intimately tied to foreign policy needs – Asia happens to be of significant strategic importance and has been since WWII.

Asians have suffered severe racism in the US and elsewhere in the western world – read “Driven Out” by Jean Pfaelzer to learn about pogroms and massacres against Chinese immigrants that lasted over six decades, and served as the template for how all subsequent Asian immigrants would be treated well into the mid-20th century. In fact, the actions of the period should be characterized as an ethnic cleansing.

That changed during and after WWII when Asia became an important buffer against communist expansion – but it is only a marriage of convenience and I think that more Asian-Americans understand this than most people might give them credit for.

There is also the fact that many Asian immigrants have come to America from extremely oppressive nations – hence they view the US as a haven, and this may be something that they share with African immigrants.

I think that there is an irony about Asian-American attitudes towards racism – many are more passionate about anti-black racism than they are about anti-Asian racism, that is, they will come out with aggression over Trayvon Martin, but not so much about the treatment of Danny Chen that led to his suicide. So most of the time Asians are only “weakly anti-racists” regarding anti-Asian racism, but strong anti-racists regarding anti-black racism. I don’t know why this is the case.

I have tried to catch Abagond a few times here and there where he suggests that certain white racist practices apply only to blacks, or blacks and Native Americans, or blacks and Hispanics, but not to Asians (eg, lynching, slavery, genocide, discrimination in professional sports, etc.). Sometimes I don’t know where he gets his information. I suspect that it too, must come from stereotypes. Occasionally he acknowledges it, but then he comes out again with statements like you quoted.

I would not be surprised in the 19th century if the statement “The only good injun is a dead injun” was followed by the 2nd half “that goes for those damn Chinamen also”.

On this blogsite, there is not much audience who will rally against the cause of Danny Chen. Maybe they cannot relate to the egregious dehumanization resulting from excessive hazing that results in suicide. I am not sure that many blacks or even whites can really understand it or empathize with it. I think many Asian-Americans do understand it, but It is possible that even if Asian-Americans rally against it, I don’t think it will go anywhere. Both Blacks and whites may feel that they can ignore Asian racism as each of their counter frames suggest, they are anti-podal to each other. White racism against blacks is the main problem with USA period.

That might change. Even last year after the Linsanity sensation, it was noted that sportscasters walk a thin tightrope when talking about blacks, but do not restrain themselves when talking deprecatingly about Asians. Maybe we need about a thousand of those cases before whites and blacks wake up to that.

Another problem is that, the concept of “Asian-American” is really a white invention. It did not exist even 50 years ago. It started when Asian-Americans started to respond to the black civil rights movement, but really only became solidified after the Vincent Chin incident. Anyhow, it too, is a bit weak, as there are more people who either identify with their ethnic origin, or with the version of Asian (ie, model minority style) that whites created for them. A White-washed Asian (like whites) might feel that the hazing-suicide was just an isolated case of aberrant whites, not a deep wide problem in society.

Civil rights for blacks do indirectly help Asian civil rights. And fighting black stereotypes (eg, black thug), to the extent that they are polarizing against Asian stereotypes, can help them also. So supporting black anti-racism is not exactly something against their self-interests. And there is a lot more support for rallying around black anti-racism (after all, blacks and liberal empathetic whites will join in).

Your post has made me realize something (which I have felt, but never actually stated to myself). Without consciously intending it, Abagond might be weakening the problem of anti-Asian racism and violence by suggesting (even unintentionally in his statements such as the one you quoted) that it is not serious, not pervasive, not long and historical enough to earn much sympathy, ie, it is sheer folly to consider that some of it was (and still is) actually worse than anti-black racism.
So, with a mixed black/white audience, it might be more effective and beneficial to actively support the cause for anti-black racism from whites than to recruit them to support anti-Asian white racism when the concept of Asian-American is even much weaker than the concept of black American.

Great comment. I also thank you for your book recommendation. Thank you.

Generally speaking, the longer an American ethnic group deals with whites, the more likely one of two things will take place: either they assimilate (Italians, Jews) or they move towards an anti-racist counter-frame (blacks, Natives, Chicanos, Japanese Americans). It seems to take place by the 4th generation or so. My knowledge of Chinese American history is not what it should be, as Jefe points out – and Feagin did not bring them up either – but I would assume they have an anti-racist counter-frame of some sort, the pre-WWII ones that is.

One of my white “friends” periodically pokes fun at my Asian eyes. I have noticed that he is more careful around blacks. Same for other whites. They will feel at ease poking fun at my race, but exercise caution so as not to offend blacks. I said before that whites do not associate shame or guilt with Asians due to the Perpetual Foreigner stereotype. As a result, they do not feel the same contempt they do for blacks.

For example, I have seen anti-black racism on Yahoo News in all its glory. One article simply had a mugging case. No description of the suspect. But for some reason, I counted about a hundred comments where the commenters suspected the mugger must be black, and spewed all kinds of racist drivel about black crime. Another article had a black kid with a 4.0 GPA getting into Ann Arbor-U Michigan. Most of the comments talked about how the school must suck and how the kid must have gotten in due to affirmative action.

(abagond has faith that whites are not stupid. Me? Not so much.)

However, I have noticed that when Asians are in Yahoo articles, there is almost an absence of racism. If the commenters talk about race, it is usually to compliment them on not being “screwed up” like blacks.

I agree with abagond that Asians do not experience nearly as much racism as blacks do. This is true under the present paradigm where the lightest (whites) are at the top and the darkest (blacks) are at the bottom. Even in Brazil and France, Asians are seen as the Model Minority while blacks are seen as criminal.

Once, a racist white woman in France felt comfortable enough to rant to me about how criminal and lazy Arabs were, whispering the word “Arabs” when she spoke to me. I thought to myself, “So if Asians were less submissive, what would she think of me?” I realized then that white people’s respect for other races was conditional. That was why a white racist confided in a model minority, looking for validation of her racist beliefs of non-model minorities.

In another incident, my aunt showed her apartment that was for rent to a black man. The man was well-dressed and very friendly. After he left, an angry mob of maybe 5-6 white apartment owners who shared the complex started yelling at my aunt for showing her apartment to the man, saying she should not show her room to “dangerous types”. My aunt said he seemed nice but one of the white pigs said “Well, he looked like a student.” My aunt said “Last week, I showed my room to a college student (white female). You didn’t say anything. I’m sorry. I didn’t know.” The white pig was lost for words. Later, I asked my aunt why they were angry. She said they were racist. Then I wondered why they let her, an Asian, live with them. She said Asians don’t cause trouble for whites.

I resent the Model Minority stereotype for this reason. It operates on the notion that whites will not abuse Asians only if we kiss up to them, submit to them, or serve them. It also is manipulative, because we become white people’s pawns for furthering their racism against other minorities. Besides, white people look down on Asians, anyway, and only pretend they respect them because Asians do not cause white people trouble. Whites do not care if Asians have troubles (poverty, unemployment, lower income, crime…) They only care when our troubles affect them. The Model Minority stereotype is a self-congratulatory white political ploy.

Another classmate from Hong Kong also looked and said “Ew. She looks like a monkey.” Asians have adopted the white frame worldwide, complete with stereotypes of other minorities. This is an aspect of America’s white cultural empire, courtesy of Hollywood and American TV.

Wait, so an asian person couldn’t make a disparaging comment about a black person all on their own, it had to come from a “white cultural empire”?

That defies common sense. You appear to be carrying a hammer and considering everything to be a nail.

Kiwi:

The majority of the Chinese I know hate the Japanese, and are open about it with me.

Perhaps the reason for this attitude is that 70 years ago the Japanese attempted to forcibly colonize China and slaughtered millions of Chinese in the process.

Most Americans hold this [Liberty-and-justice] frame, but use it in different ways.

(…)

Most whites only give it lip service: they will say that society should not give advantages to one race over another, but will not give up white privilege or support policies like busing, affirmative action, reparations or treaty rights.

The narrative suggests that if you oppose busing, AA, reparations, etc then you must oppose liberty and justice. This assumes that busing, AA, reparations are effective, fair, and serve the causes of liberty and justice.

Why can’t a person favor liberty and justice but believe that certain corrective actions like busing, AA, reparations are simply not fair and/or not effective?

Yeah. Get real. It is not like those white people who oppose busing, etc, are bursting with Constructive Alternatives. Most of them are quite willing to let blacks twist in the wind – AS THEY ALWAYS HAVE aside from a few rare periods in American history.

Yeah. Get real. It is not like those white people who oppose busing, etc, are bursting with Constructive Alternatives.

If a proposed solution doesn’t solve a problem, then shouldn’t it be opposed on those merits alone?

If you’re “trying” but failing, and in the process injuring others and crowding out potentially successful solutions, then your attempt has negative value.

“Busing” appears to me as one of those utopianist “feel-good” programs that attempts to help Group A by injuring Group B (and possibly Group A too). Maybe that’s considered progress by so-called Progressives but it doesn’t hold up to critical examination.

Which is more important, actually helping people or feeling good because you’re doing “something”?

“The narrative suggests that if you oppose busing, AA, reparations, etc then you must oppose liberty and justice. This assumes that busing, AA, reparations are effective, fair, and serve the causes of liberty and justice.

Why can’t a person favor liberty and justice but believe that certain corrective actions like busing, AA, reparations are simply not fair and/or not effective?”

I’m frightened. I actually agree with Randy on something. That’s the first thing I thought when I read this.

Yes, a person can have honest reasons to oppose busing and still be for liberty and justice. I am sure there are people like that. But MOST white people are NOT like that. They not only oppose busing but also affirmative action, reparations and, in fact, ANY policy with any teeth to it that would make the country more equal. There is always some excuse. IN ADDITION they are QUITE FINE with IDIOTIC policies that hurt blacks, like the mass incarceration of black men or underfunded black schools. These are NOT the actions of someone who is for freedom and justice for all.

@Randy
I disagree. How can you be for Liberty, freedom for all when you oppose Affirmative Action and busing and reparations? These all help Blacks try to have an equal footing with Whites in economic and socioeconomic terms. And those White people who oppose Affirmative Action are NOT bursting with constructive alternatives. They don’t care about what Blacks go through in this racist country. I believe Whites believe in Liberty, freedom only when it is for them but for the most part, I don’t really think White Americans believe n liberty and justice at all. Time and history has shown that.

And for the Black counterframe, I am in the process of reprogramming myself from the White media and White Eurocentric culture in general. I embrace my West Indian culture and will study Black history.

“Most whites only give it lip service: they will say that society should not give advantages to one race over another, but will not give up white privilege or support policies like busing, affirmative action, reparations or treaty rights. ”

Busing, affirmative action, reparations and treaty rights all give advantages to one race over another. So it’s really those who support such programs who are giving lip service to liberty and justice. Not that I’m complaining because those programs mostly harm the racist blacks who demand them.

“They not only oppose busing but also affirmative action, reparations and, in fact, ANY policy with any teeth to it that would make the country more equal. ”

Those policies don’t have any teeth. Affirmative Action benefits individual black people and the masses of white people at the expense of the masses of black people and individual whites. There is nothing just about.

Yeah. Get real. It is not like those white people who oppose busing, etc, are bursting with Constructive Alternatives. Most of them are quite willing to let blacks twist in the wind – AS THEY ALWAYS HAVE aside from a few rare periods in American history.”

My guess of those rare periods would be, that of Black Wall street and Blacks in Congress, after blacks were given the right to vote and participate in Democracy.

That didn’t last very long, whites couldn’t have blacks, prospering and rising up in the political process.

“Yeah. Get real. It is not like those white people who oppose busing, etc, are bursting with Constructive Alternatives.”

************

-Abagond

It’s the pinnacle of absurdity that RACIST whites should have any say whatsoever regarding, busing, AA, reparations, or any program that compensates blacks for 400 years of violent racist oppression and marginalization.

Do rapists get to have an input on what a fair punishment for their crimes should be?

What about child-molesters? Should they have a “bargaining” voice too? Or the power to nix their own punishment?

Absolutely Incredible …

Someone, anyone, please direct me to any situation outside of racism white-supremacy where the oppressor chooses his own restitution/penalties/punishment for the crimes, pain and suffering he caused his victims!

If whites won’t collectively do the right thing, the correction (divine justice) that will inevitably materialize will be a MUCH STRONGER, harsher remedy.

That is exactly what I said before. I know Whites don’t want us to have equal economic standing with them. It will scare them. Whites do NOT believe in liberty or equality nor do they care about our plight. They are only out for themselves.

“It’s the pinnacle of absurdity that RACIST whites should have any say whatsoever regarding, busing, AA, reparations, or any program that compensates blacks for 400 years of violent racist oppression and marginalization.”

That’s why black people should stop asking white people for it.

I don’t think a rape victim would ask her rapist for payment while she is still being raped by him. At that point it’s prostitution.

From what get from this term folkways, it is a sociological term. The learned behavior of a social group. This term was coined by sociologist William Graham Sumner. White folkways, is just learned behavior of white society passed on by generation after generation. This is what frames the mindset of white America. This is why a large segment of white America feels superior to the other segments of non white Americans. Great post. This is very clear why there is white supremacy in America.

I admit to being weakly anti-racist and somewhat racist at the same time. You suggested that I ask myself why am I not aware of the daily abuses suffered by Asian-Americans. I am aware that somewhere in the country an Asian-American is mistreated. I do not see a systemic pattern. In my experience, I feel that I am treated with respect.

Regarding the “existing white power structure,” all countries have a power structure. When I lived in India, was I living as a victim of its existing brown power structure?

Perhaps I have confused white folkways with American folkways. Is “folkways” another word for culture? Is so, I am comfortably multicultural.

George Allen called someone a macaca, which was a very rude thing to say. How long are you going to cry about it?

Employers pay immigrants less because our system of work visas is terrible. As long as an immigrant’s legal permission to work is dependent on the employer, the abuse will continue.

I have encountered the Perpetual Foreigner stereotype many times, and even wrote a blog about it called “I am brown, and you want to know why.” Some white people will not stop asking until they hear “India.” The fact that I was born in the USA is almost irrelevant to those people. I can’t change those people. However, I will not allow the Perpetual Foreigner stereotype to turn me into a Perpetual Victim.

never heard of Danny chen before, and I am just learning of other ppl in the army who commited suicide or at least that is what the army says. they do not like reporting about the military personnel killing or harassing each other and will cover it up and say it was suicide. Like the young black woman that was raped and killed yet they said it was suicide smh.Then again if that were to get out nobody would want their son or daughter to join and fight their senseless wars.

@mstoogood4yall; We live in a rape culture, that sister that was raped and killed in the military, let me know women are not safe in this society. I wonder if there was a full investigation of this young woman’s murder. I feel because she was a black woman, they probably classified this as a cold case. This is just my opinion. I wondered about this.

yea and what really makes me sick is she was soo young, she was my age 19. I can’t even think what that would feel like to go over there and be away from home in a warzone. She wasn’t even there that long, and then they covered it up. I don’t think she got any justice I looked and nothing. Reminds me of the black ppl killed and they let the white killers go because they didn’t want to ruin their life.

Yep that is interesting Richard joined the black panthers, that is what Ben was talking about how Asians will come out for anti black racism but not for themselves. Me and another commenter were talking about how other groups look to us to dismantle white supremacy.

if everybody copies our dance and style its not far off to assume they would copy or try to join us against white supremacy, which is good. I also think it has to do with the submissive Asian stereotype, and they will take them more seriously if they join blacks, because we are on the farthest end of the spectrum when it comes to whites.

It’s interesting to learn that there were some Asians in the Black Panther Party. Maybe because he and his family were in the Japanese interment camps,he understood the injustices done to black Americans during that time.

Not a big fan of the “frames” discussion. Am I the first to notice the irony of the freedom and justice frame featuring TJ the infamous slaveholder and references to the declaration of independence, constitution and Gettysburg address, the actual writers of which had no intention to grant equal right to blacks?

In any case, interesting that you seem to note that Japanese Americans’ “frame” may be more strongly “anti-racist” than other Asian Americans. What was done to the Japanese Americans pales in comparison to what the Japanese did in WWII to the lands they conquered. Japanese are almost universally hated by other Asians.

Some useful tips on Asian racial hierarchy for the uneducated (and this is probably as relevant a post as I will get to post this here, Abagond, since you prefer to focus only on white racism):

Category 1: Japanese — Consider themselves superior to all other Asians. Believe they would have taken over all of Asia if it weren’t for the meddling of the U.S. and Russians.

Category 5a. Malaysians and Indonesians — Hate and envy Japanese. Envy, but generally kind of admire higher Categories, except that they look down on non-Muslims generally.

Category 5b. Burmese, Cambodians and Laotians (note that Hmongs hate and envy Laotians, but I won’t give them a full separate category–there would be other similar cases) — Hate and envy Japanese, Mainland Chinese and Category 4 (except maybe Filipinos). Envy, but generally kind of admire Category 2.

Note that Indians, Pakistanis, etc. are not considered to be Asians by other Asians, and are instead thought to be more comparable with Arabs.

This is an oversimplification and doesn’t hit every single country, I guess, but a useful starting place to think about inter-Asian racism.

George Allen called someone a macaca, which was a very rude thing to say.

Wow. At least you can admit it was rude. Nothing to say about dehumanization. Great. I guess I can just call Indians monkeys and that wouldn’t be worse than calling them poopypants.

However, I will not allow the Perpetual Foreigner stereotype to turn me into a Perpetual Victim.

At least to the best of your ability. However, I would not tell that to the many South Asians whose family members were murdered by white supremacists after 9/11 because they “looked Muslim”. I’m sure they are doing their best not to be “Perpetual Victims”.

Whenever I broach the subject of reparations, it seems that every Tom, Dick, Becky and Jane suddenly appears out of nowhere to announce why reparations won’t work, why it shouldn’t be given or just abjectly disapprove on general principle – as if I care what their white privileged feelings are on the matter. smh

The problem with going to the federal government for justice is that those who hold the keys to power (financial remedy) in the legislative, judicial and FINANCIAL branches of government are white-washed, live in white skin and possess the typical white racial frame.

I clearly see and understand that whiteness isn’t going to wake up some day with a seared conscience that’s willing to make amends for all the wrongs they’ve heaped upon black people. Their issues regarding denial, delusion, diversion and deceit are too great for even them to overcome.

The Japanese-American internment is a case of Americans abusing their own citizens. Japanese imperialism is a case of Japan invading other countries. “Pales in comparison” is an inane comparison. You are stereotyping Japanese -Americans as not “real” Americans. Why compare the plight of Americans to what the Japanese did? Oh, because they look the same. Great.

There was a documentary that aired earlier this year on PBS entitled The Invisible War, that dealt with sexual harassment and rape culture in the American military. Maybe you can watch it on You Tube. It’s a very good and interesting documentary.

“There was a documentary that aired earlier this year on PBS entitled The Invisible War, that dealt with sexual harassment and rape culture in the American military. Maybe you can watch it on You Tube. It’s a very good and interesting documentary.”

I watched this very documentary on my apple TV, it was interesting indeed.

I talked too a woman in the military and she wasn’t aware of any rape in her experience but she claims to have heard of some in the media.

Kiwi: Japan took over those other countries and made them Japanese citizens or subjects… for instance they would make them speak in Japanese and not their native language. So, yes, that was crap they did to their own “citizens”… citizens of the empire they created. Anyway, I know this is a whites only trashing zone.. so… yes, it was horrible what happened to the Japanese Americans.. let’s not talk about the millions of civilians killed and tortured by the Japanese during the same conflict, because what the Americans did was much worse even though not many people died directly as a result. But, btw, the same racism exists among Asian American populations…

Consider that these Asians grew up on a media diet heavily influenced by American TV/movies. You can find blackface in Asia. But we know where it originally came from. Can you connect the dots?

I try to stress the universality of themes. People are more the same than they are different, given similar circumstances. As well-traveled as you appear to be, I’m surprised that you haven’t arrived at many of the same conclusions.

The idea that Chinese persons might make condescending observations about a black person only because of exposure to western racism is rather absurd.

One can only speculate whom you blame for the treatment of mixed-race singer Lou Jing.

Kiwi

Also, Western imperialism in Asia was particularly cruel, but nobody talks about that. Japan is not even a threat anymore. Why are whites given a pass?

The atrocities of the Japanese throughout Asia were not only vast, but they’re still remembered first hand.

There you go again. The Japanese-Americans have nothing to do with what the Japanese government did. The Japanese-Americans are Americans, and always will be. Why does nobody point out Israel’s crimes whenever we talk about the Holocaust in high school? That’s because the Holocaust victims have nothing to do with Israel’s crimes. I’m sorry you don’t see Asian-Americans as real Americans. Why should they pay your tax if all they get is ingratitude from whites like you?

The idea that Chinese persons might make condescending observations about a black person only because of exposure to western racism is rather absurd.

You know what’s even more absurd? Chinese people kissing up to whites. In China, the enthusiasm I saw the Chinese had for whites was so immense, it was borderline worship. I guess you wouldn’t know about that.

The atrocities of the Japanese throughout Asia were not only vast, but they’re still remembered first hand.

Right. And the present day poverty, cheap labor, and sweatshops in Asia have nothing to do with enriching Western countries’ living standards. Western imperialism had nothing to do with that. Riiiiiiight.

Thanks, I live about 2 hours from lackland afb my dad used to work there, and now they are having a sex scandal after scandal coming into the news here. instructors sexually harassing the new recruits. People should not have to worry about being abused when going into the military, and its a shame they are told to keep quiet especially if the person that assaulted them is higher ranking.

Never heard of Danny Chen before, I looked him up and that’s some upsetting schit. I’ve witnessed the tip of that iceberg a couple times, these guys think its ‘funny’ and even ‘manly’ be dehumanizing aholes because there’s a rank structure protecting them. And I don’t care what it says on paper, its who you know, end of story. Whether or not he put in complaints, he would have been screwed and it would have continued.

The model minority stereotype is quite the crafty invention. I’m with Kiwi on this one, it seems Asians are only as acceptable as they’re level of compliance and sometimes not even then. Like this guy who is also in the military, had all the finances in order to get a house in a nice neighborhood, great credit score and everything was good to go, the agent was enthusiastic until he showed up to look at the house! He never got that house, he was fed BS until he moved on as it wasn’t worth the hassle. Everything was fine until the agent saw him. So much for model minority.

“I’m sorry you don’t see Asian-Americans as real Americans. Why should they pay your tax if all they get is ingratitude from whites like you?”

Oh yes, it’s very fair to claim from my comments that I don’t see Asian-Americans as real Americans. I said “it was horrible what happened to the Japanese Americans”, but that’s just not good enough to apologize for what my race did… btw, thanks for paying “my tax”.. ha ha, the irony that is that I have been living and working outside the U.S. for quite some time–so I am returning the favor and paying “their tax” (and I see no benefit from the U.S. taxes I also still have to pay–non-citizen visitors don’t pay these taxes).

“You know what’s even more absurd? Chinese people kissing up to whites. In China, the enthusiasm I saw the Chinese had for whites was so immense, it was borderline worship. I guess you wouldn’t know about that.”

Chinese fought in a massive war with America 50 years ago (the Korean war for the non-historically inclined). In their education system, Americans were propagandized for decades as evil capitalists–the worst people on earth after the Japanese.

And yet, here’s the beautiful thing, people outside the West weren’t indoctrinated with the “narrative”. They can see with their own eyes. They make their own decisions. They had starvation to contend with under a Socialist model. Therefore they can clearly see the benefits of civilization and strive towards that. They don’t take it for granted and seek to destroy it like the West does.

Anyway, I’m sure you’ll have a great comeback about how I’m an evil imperialist or something for leaving the U.S. That’s about what I can expect from you, because to you anything a proud white male does (term makes you upset, yes, but it’s fine to say proud Asian male or proud black male…) must be rooted in racism.

I am going to address two of your notions that you mentioned above. All I ask is that you hear me out first before you feel the need to become defensive. It is just a remark, and not intended to be aggressive in any manner.

Generally speaking, the longer an American ethnic group deals with whites, the more likely one of two things will take place: either they assimilate (Italians, Jews) or they move towards an anti-racist counter-frame (blacks, Natives, Chicanos, Japanese Americans). It seems to take place by the 4th generation or so.

Is this your theory or Feagin’s theory? I think it may serve a purpose to try to frame a concept about groups migrating from a non-member in US society to one with racial frames. But as it is applied to the actual USA case, it incorporates a lot of fallacies. The biggest fallacy is comparing the adjustment of an individual to the group he has been assigned to. It might be worthy to consider the theory as a framework for discussion of counter-frame development for groups (but then, only as a framework of discussion, not as an actual explanation of race relations), but becomes rather spurious when you start to apply that to individual cases.

Examples:

* African Slave importation continued until the 19th century, meaning that at the eve of the Civil war, we probably still had first generation African slaves and many 2nd generation. I am sure that there was no need to wait until a 4th generation to adopt a racial counter frame. The reason was because Africans, as a group, had been in the USA for over 200 years already and there was already a white racial frame regarding them forcing them to adopt a counter frame probably in the 1st or 2nd generation. This would probably also apply to, say Jews or Italians immigrating to the USA in the 21st century – they probably would formulate a racial frame in the very first generation, or at most 2nd generation, as the history of the racial frame is already in its 5-6th generation.

* Native Americans have been in what is the present day USA for, what, 10,000 years. Yet I am sure that their length of time in the USA is not directly related to the development of a counter frame to the white racial frame. What is probably more relevant is the generations of white Americans that have had to deal with and encounter the relevant group forcing the other side to develop a counter frame.

Regarding the 2 prior points, you actually *kinda* said this in “the longer an American ethnic group deals with whites” but then applied it incorrectly, as in the case of Chinese Americans (which, as an ethnic group in the USA, are now passing into their 7th-8th generation). In 2012, Congress passed a resolution to apologize for the Chinese Exclusion Act. If we only look at recent immigrants, then why would we even need to even consider an event related to their dealings with whites tracing back 130 years? The white racial frame regarding Chinese-Americans (and in general, to Asian Americans) extends back 165 years to mid 19th century, well within the ante-bellum period.

And also, as a counterpoint, many West Indians are in the 1st or 2nd generation, but they are affected by a racial frame that has been developing over centuries. Another reason not to apply the counter frame to individuals or even to recent arrival groups. The analogy would be similar to applying the racial frame towards late 20th century Taiwanese Americans without considering the racial frames that were developed back in the 19th century towards Chinese Americans.

* Asians first appeared in the post-Colombian period in what is the present day United States in 1585, predating both the English and Africans, according to confirmed verifiable reports. They came on the Spanish Galleon ships. So, it is very short-sighted for both whites and blacks (and for Asians who don’t know otherwise) that Asians in the USA are a recent phenomenon. But I would agree that we can ignore this as far as the development of a racial frame, as the settlement was not permanent or long-term and there was no encounter with Anglo whites (as, they themselves had not yet even arrived). The first permanent settlement of Asians in the present day USA dates back to 1763, when Filipinos jumped the Galleon ships and settled in Louisiana. They stayed there until the 20th century when a hurricane wiped out their villages.

They probably developed a very localized racial frame as they lived apart from whites, who knew about them but did not really interact with them regularly. However, by and large, in the context of formation of a white racial frame and counter frame that applies to a larger society, we probably can ignore it too. There were small numbers of Chinese and other students and merchants that entered the USA in the early 19th century, but the first large group came in the 1848 Gold Rush, after which hundreds of thousands entered within a relatively short time period. It is starting at that time that Whites had to deal with them as a large group, and that is whence we should determine when racial frames were developed on either side.

This is excusable and forgivable as most of it has been omitted from our US history textbooks. Even Chinese-Americans do not even know about Chinese-American history. And, you have clearly indicated that you probably want to know a little more about it, not just about Chinese-American history, but about something else other than white history and African-American history.

What is not so forgivable, however, is the tendency to make assumptions about how white racial frames affect them or about how they compare to black counter frames when you admittedly don’t know that much about it. Perhaps, that too, is an aspect of the black counter frame — thinking that racism in America is pretty all about white racism towards blacks. But, slavery, lynching, genocide, etc. affected Asian-Americans also, and in some cases to an even greater intensity than to blacks or Native Americans.

* 1850s – 1880s
During this period, the importation of Chinese labourers and their employment conditions fully meets the definition of slavery. I work in Corporate Social Responsibility and examine organizations for conditions of forced or involuntary labour and there is no doubt that the human trafficking of Chinese into the USA was as slaves. The difference between slavery in the South pre-Civil war and the labour exploitation of Chinese at the same time was that slaves in the slave states were chattel. But after the Civil War, I don’t really see the major difference between the labour exploitation of Chinese and the labour exploitation of blacks (eg, sharecropping, forced prison labour, or no legal labour protection). In fact, in the 1870s-1880s, southern plantation owners actively sought to import Chinese into the South specifically as a method to replace blacks.

* 1880s – 1940s
As mentioned in Ben E’s comment, the policy of the USA towards Asians, esp. the Chinese and Japanese, in the USA was akin to genocide (or more accurately, flat out genocide). This was especially true in the 1880s – 1890s. How else can you explain how Idaho went from 1/3 Chinese to 0.3%? It was flat out genocide and even worse than what happened to many Native American tribes.
As you pointed out earlier, the Japanese-American Internment camps were only 1 step away from genocide. Once rounded up and put behind barbed wire, over 110,000 Americans could have been slaughtered overnight. It should be clear that the US policy (based on the white racial frame) towards Asian Americans was one of genocide.

And lynching, I was actually NOT happy when you mentioned (I believe last year) that lynching was something that applied to blacks and not to Asians. As someone who had a great-grandfather that was lynched, I was not impressed with your logic and pointed it out to you. You did change the wording, to it applying mainly to blacks and *less* to Asians, but frankly, I am still not happy when you do this because it is simply wrong. Check the resources Ben E offered you. I did not perform the research myself, but based on what I do know, I strongly believe that the rate of lynching of Asian Americans was actually much higher than it was for blacks. What do you need? A photo of a mob of whites lynching Chinese? Does the disappearance of hundreds of thousands of Chinese-Americans off the face of the planet not speak for itself?

This is the main defect of the black counter frame. It sees racism pretty much as white racism towards blacks. It looks at other racism, even if it was worse, as less serious, pervasive or important, and as somehow, not really relating to them. The white racial frame is full of self-delusions, but the black counter frames have a few self-delusions of their own.

* Generational aspects of Asian-Americans in the USA
Looking at statistics at numbers at the percentage of Asian immigrants, one would think that it is primarily a recent immigrant phenomenon (esp. after the 1965 Immigration Act). However, this ignores the effect of what the genocidal aspects the of mass lynchings and massacres and the Exclusion Acts. If we had not had them, we would probably have twice as many Asian-Americans today, with the majority tracing their origin to the 19th century.

But, wait a minute, maybe we do.

Let me give you an example. My great-grandfather was lynched in Oregon around 1890. But my grandfather did not settle in the USA until the 1930s and my Aunts came in the 1940s. My father’s cousin’s son (my second cousin) came in the 1960s and did not bring his sons (the great, great grandsons of the lynched ancestor) to the USA until the 1980s. A considerable portion of the post-1965 immigration wave is directly desendant from the lynched and massacred people in the 19th century. Many of the 1st generation Americans actually already have 5-6 generations of history in the USA. The genocide and immigration exclusion policies of the USA led to many generations of family displacement and those first generation immigrants were already affected by the events of 120-150 years ago in the USA as they set foot on US soil. So, it is erroneous to assume that a new immigrant was not affected by those 19th century policies when their family history contains a generational effect arising from the original atrocities.

Abagond, I have drafted a number of topics, but I find it very time consuming to revise them until they fall into your 500 word target and to find references and photos to fit. But I will send them. In the meantime, all I ask is that you be aware that YOUR racial frame sometimes causes you to make assumptions based on stereotypes that really have no basis in fact. I hope that you will never say again that lynching affected mostly blacks, or that genocide in America was basically a Native American phenomenon until you actually know the truth.

Reading comp fail on your part. My point was that it was annoying that I still had to pay U.S. taxes (while also paying full taxes in the country where I live and work), not being there (in the U.S.) and not getting any benefit… the benefit would be being able to visit the U.S. from time to time and have basic support services (e.g., police protection, etc.), but that’s a common benefit that even non-citizen visitors get… that comment had nothing to do with Asian Americans, who I referenced as paying “my taxes” playing on your absurd language.

OK, I’ll admit American racism is horrible, but I hope you can at least have the intellectual honesty (not a peep about the accuracy of my Asian racial hierarchy) to admit to yourself that racism is much worse almost everywhere else in the world. Why do you think you’re so much freaking more enlightened than 1.3 billion Chinese who happen to generally respect white people? oh yeah, that great Western education you got there…

to admit to yourself that racism is much worse almost everywhere else in the world.

I live and work overseas too. I have no idea where or how you can possibly trump this up.

Racism can be bad overseas. A couple months ago, we just witnessed how Malaysia disenfranchised the voting of its non-muslim minorities, eg, the Chinese and Indians. We can see how Chinese react to mixed racial Chinese citizens representing themselves on the national and international stage, There is ethnic tension everywhere, resulting in all sorts of abuse.

But, US has a sordid history of race relations that it has tried over and over again to whitewash. This is what we are addressing here. The argument that race relation abuses exist overseas is an “Arab Trader argument”. It is especially bad for the US as they are the ones dictating to everyone else how to act.

Since you live and work abroad, I guess I can respect your opinion more than most here. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree then re: the U.S. being one of the worst actors globally. I’m also tired of the U.S. trying to tell everyone else how to act (just like people on this board have no right/authority to tell Chinese how to act or perceive others). We currently have a dysfunctional system and we can and should learn from the recent successes of the Chinese and others. Pure democracy (which doesn’t exist anyway) isn’t always the best path and to think it must be is a Western fallacy.

This whole thing where you only blame white males, and white males are somehow responsible for racism everywhere (we’ve somehow mind controlled the Chinese according to Kiwi) just seems bizarre to me. The worst thing is that subconsciously it tells everyone that white males are still number one… still the only ones who have power over anything or anyone. The only ones with volition (everyone else is just a victim). In this way, it actually perpetuates racism. But, you are all blinded by the narrative.

You’re the one failing to comprehend me. My original point was that Asian-Americans pay a huge load of the taxes. Randomly, you started *****ing about paying US taxes while foreigners don’t. Did I say anything about foreigners in the US? Why bring it up?

Since you know my life story so well, I’m assuming you know about my experience with racism outside the US. In fact, I found white Europeans to be extremely racist. Not surprising, given that they invented it. White Africans were not much different. But you know what I found more surprising? When I travelled with white friends and relatives *gasp, whites are part of my circle*, I noticed that the same people of color who spoke to me disrespectfully or disregarded what I said based on my race would suddenly turn around and take what my white friends or relatives had to say seriously. Even if they merely repeated what I said. Just one example, not that you knew.

It is hypocritical that you jump on inter-Asian racism yet you show no surprise at “1.3 billion Chinese who happen to generally respect white people”.

That’s the point I’ve been making over and over. Why do get whites get respect from Asians but no one else, even other Asians?

I was referring mainly the USA domestically, not overseas. Or are you referring to the domestic acts in the USA compared to domestic acts in other countries?

I suspect that one reason that you might feel this way is that you did not appear to be on the receiving end of the abuses and atrocities in the USA, therefore noticing them vs. what occurs overseas. Besides, is it even moral to excuse, say the genocide of Native Americans and Asian Americans in the USA by pointing to the Killing Fields of Cambodia or to the Holocaust and say “SEE, they were bad too.” That is why I brought up the Arab Trader Argument.

But the USA, as a country, is plenty belligerent overseas too. I can’t even use the argument of what Japan did before and during WWII to excuse what the USA does. That is also a moral fallacy to point to other bad people to make yourself somehow look less bad.

I’m also tired of the U.S. trying to tell everyone else how to act

I find this embarrassing about the USA.

This whole thing where you only blame white males, and white males are somehow responsible for racism everywhere

“Am I the first to notice the irony of the freedom and justice frame featuring TJ the infamous slaveholder and references to the declaration of independence, constitution and Gettysburg address, the actual writers of which had no intention to grant equal right to blacks?”

Irony intentional. I put Jefferson there because not only did he have a huge hand creating that counter-frame, he also embodies its hypocrisy among whites.

Wow, I have read both counter frames and the comments have made me think, especially Kiwi’s. I have never thought about it that way. Hopefully, I don’t come off as “insensitive”, but I do agree with Kiwi’s earlier comments about Asian Americans, most don’t seem to have any racial qualms with whites, most seem to have it with other minorities(Especially black) Which I don’t know why,(Well, I know b/c of American Media) because most minorities really don’t have history with Asians to cause issues like that. I have always wonder that, it seems when it comes to racial injustice Black people will speak about it, Native Americans, Hispanics and even Middle Easterns, but most of the time it’s always quiet on the Asian side. I use to wonder that…. Is it us? or maybe their experience are different from ours.

I mean when there is obvious racism like that whole “UCLA Asian Rant”,”Lin-Sainity” and the “questionable” suicide of the Asian-American soldier, who received racial slurs and bullying, while serving(I forgotten his name, sorry).I did hear Asian organizations protest and speak about these issues, but when it came down to what’s it like being Asian in America, it’s little to no response at all about the issue. Making everyone think *Shrugs shoulders* “Well, guess they don’t have any issue”.

I mean when we talk about racial issues in the U.S, I don’t want it to be always “Black &White”, or “Black people just talking” I wanna pull a seat out for other minorities and have them join in the conversation. Just freely speak. But I guess most don’t, because how they’re brought up or feel “cornered”. But it’s always nice to hear from the other side. Like in this video, of a Korean Woman speaking about it on StereoTypes (I like the show) and she hit the nail on the head 🙂

“Wow, I have read both counter frames and the comments have made me think, especially Kiwi’s. I have never thought about it that way. Hopefully, I don’t come off as “insensitive”, but I do agree with Kiwi’s earlier comments about Asian Americans, most don’t seem to have any racial qualms with whites, most seem to have it with other minorities(Especially black) Which I don’t know why,(Well, I know b/c of American Media) because most minorities really don’t have history with Asians to cause issues like that. I have always wonder that, it seems when it comes to racial injustice Black people will speak about it, Native Americans, Hispanics and even Middle Easterns, but most of the time it’s always quiet on the Asian side. I use to wonder that…. Is it us? or maybe their experience are different from ours. ”

I believe it has to do with the “model minority” stereotype that Asians have in America and the fact that they are willing to sell out to whites in order to maintain their, “honorary white” status.

They also don’t garner as much sympathy from other minorities like blacks and Latinos, simply because they have not, forcefully participated in any type of civil rights movement of their own or any others for that matter.

They don’t seem to exhibit any of their native culture, whatsoever. They adopt white culture completely.

Although every single minority in America are expected to and are forced to reject their own, culture in favor of white culture, blacks,Latinos, native Americans and Indians, still maintain their culture by in large.

The majority of Asian Americans, are Honorary whites that take on, white people’s ideology about blacks, this is why i rarely see an Asian American that has a black friend.

Whites will at least try to pander to blacks and other whites by getting a “black friend” like a pet, so they can appear to be not racist to other blacks and whites.

Asians being a minority, they don’t feel a need to do this, because white people also make the assumption that minorities, can’t be racist against other minorities. Hence the cry by whites about Zimmerman, “he’s a white Hispanic, that killed a black, so he can’t be racist” there is so many things wrong with this statement but i digress…..

simply because they have not, forcefully participated in any type of civil rights movement of their own or any others for that matter.

I am going to have to call you out on this because it is simply terribly wrong.

Asian-Americans were, by far, much much more forcefully participative in civil rights activity from the 1880s to 1940s than any other racial groups, even more than blacks. Please do not rewrite American history based on hearsay. More Asian-Americans took their grievances to the court system and challenged and fought for their civil liberties than blacks did, even after the NAACP was established. It is because of Asian-American activism, for example, that the USA enforces the 14th Amendment that was designed to make black slaves citizens.

I really wonder where people learn their misinformation.

There are reasons why you perceive it to be quiet on the Asian side, but it would probably take a dozen blog posts to get into it.

I agree, It feels like Jefe was just talking down to you instead of addressing the real issues. I mean why get defensive at you and not at the actual system that gives no acknowledgements to this?

I didn’t know this, you didn’t know and I think most people don’t know this. And I’m not gonna lie Jefe, I’m a lil peeved off about that statement

”
Asian-Americans were, by far, much much more forcefully participative in civil rights activity from the 1880s to 1940s than any other racial groups, even more than blacks. Please do not rewrite American history based on hearsay. More Asian-Americans took their grievances to the court system and challenged and fought for their civil liberties than blacks did, even after the NAACP was established. It is because of Asian-American activism, for example, that the USA enforces the 14th Amendment that was designed to make black slaves citizens.”

What the heck is that suppose to mean? YOU GUY contributed more, are you serious?! No offense, but the Wong Kim Ark sounded more for foreign immigration in general than it did for minorities that already were born and raised into a American upbringing. I’m sorry but I don’t care for the whole “We did more than black people”. speech. I don’t want this to be “Who contributed more”, but I feel this is what it might turn out to be. And I’m ticked you thought Sondis was “Re-writing history”. In what what way?

I’m sorry if my ignorance shown, but I DID NOT appreciate that Jefe. Not at all.

I understand Asian Americans have done things, but many people(Like me) just don’t know. Like I have said before, many Asians just don’t bring it up. No one is “Re-writing or “twisting facts”. We really have no clue, because most Asians just don’t talk about it.

@Drosera: Don’t feel bad,it happened to me too. I am learning about many things here as well. I was angry at Jefe too, but I take it as constructive criticism now. It can be embarrassing,when you don’t know something. But Jefe schooled me. In my case I try to learn and read and do better. Try to see this as a teaching moment.

@ Jefe: You are a good teacher, if I am misinformed about something like in the past, you straightened me out, I was offended, but I was corrected by you. Thanks, I am willing to learn, if I am ignorant about a subject or a thing. You are a good teacher, I appreciate you for correcting me in the past.

“Asian-on-Asian violence, imperialism or racism hardly excuses or even mitigates the Western-on-Asian or Western-on-Western sort. Wrong is wrong. It is a standard piece of White American deflection.”

No one said two wrongs make a right. But when you cherry pick “wrongs” to imply that it’s “only whites” or “whites are worse” while downplaying things others have done it’s perfectly reasonable for whites to provide counter examples to show that others have behaved similarly.

@Drosera
Wong Kim Ark was a native born American. It had absolutely nothing to do with foreign immigration.
I also do not appreciate that. Not at all.

To everyone else:
I like Abagond’s blog because one of the aims he strives for is to fill in missing gaps in the US history that was omitted or mistaught to us. We should all be concerned, and perhaps upset about this.

If you are upset about white people rewriting history for us, or conveniently omitting these important pieces of information from our collective history, please don’t get mad at me for it. First ask ourselves, WHY DON’T WE KNOW THIS and then subsequently go and fix it.

Drosera, Jefe,
“I’m sorry but I don’t care for the whole “We did more than black people”. speech. I don’t want this to be “Who contributed more”, but I feel this is what it might turn out to be.”

I agree. You can make your point without all the who suffered more or who fought more crap. It detracts from the point you are trying to make.”

I agree solesearch, Jefe came across in that manner.

Although i disagree with that statement that, “Asian-Americans were, by far, much much more forcefully participative in civil rights activity from the 1880s to 1940s than any other racial groups, even more than blacks.”

Blacks championed the Civil rights movement, all others followed in our example.

This is not a contest. I am not really that interested in arguing who did more, who suffered more, etc. etc. etc. I am interested in learning what actually happened.

Sondis, you are referring to the African-American civil rights movement that was centered approx around 1955 -1968. For that civil rights movement, I agree that Blacks were the main champion. In the 1960s-1970s, the other oppressed groups did, in large part, followed the example. In fact, Asian Americans in the 1970s renamed themselves (instead of referring to themselves as “Orientals” as whites called them previously) after taking cue from the black civil rights movement, after “black” was used to replace “colored”. The I Wor Kuen activist group which formed in 1972 in New York City took its example from the Black Panthers. The Wounded Knee Incident in 1973 also took many cues from the Black civil rights movement.

However, it is not true for all time periods, nor for all civil rights action. If you believe that, then there have been some omissions in your understanding of American history. That is alright. It has happened to all of us. That is why we are here.

Indignation doesn’t work for most whites, because having remained sanguine about, silent during, indeed often supportive of so much injustice over the years in this country–the theft of native land and genocide of indigenous persons, and the enslavement of Africans being only two of the best examples–we are just a bit late to get into the game of moral rectitude. And once we enter it, our efforts at righteousness tend to fail the test of sincerity.

“My knowledge of Chinese American history is not what it should be, as Jefe points out – and Feagin did not bring them up either but I would assume they have an anti-racist counter-frame of some sort, the pre-WWII ones that is.”

I’m surprised that Feagin would draw conclusions about Asians without a historical or geo-political context – especially since his book is subtitled “Centuries of Racial Framing and Counter-Framing”, I would expect at least an attempt to provide a historical context for his conclusions about Asians.

But that is in keeping with the exclusion of Asians from the American story – even today it is not uncommon for Asians to be omitted from sociological or psychological studies. So, it’s not surprising that Asians are viewed as invisible – some of the commenters on this post seem to want to blame Asians for that, but we don’t run the country, and have little or no control over what is said, written, or claimed about us by mainstream America.

One would think that a period of massacres, expulsions, and torching of Chinese communities that lasted generations would make it into some American history books, but that just illustrates how whitewashed the Asians experience is. To those who complain about Asians being white washed – it’s true, but we’re not the ones doing the white-washing, we have no control over it.

“However, it is not true for all time periods, nor for all civil rights action. If you believe that, then there have been some omissions in your understanding of American history. That is alright. It has happened to all of us. That is why we are here.”

If you wish to exclude Black people’s fight in America to be considered human beings from the civil rights movement, I understand. However, it should be noted that before and during the civil rights movement that is what was happening for African Americans as opposed to Asians fighting to be considered Americans.

I don’t know how true your statements about Asian American s being more active in the courts than African Americans but I’m pretty sure it’s a lot harder to get into a court of law when you aren’t even considered fully human.

This link gives a rough guideline on the importance of the Chinese struggles for civil rights in the 19th century – in particular they were the first group to test the 14th amendment equal right to protection under the law, and they set the legal precedent for reparations paid to minority victims of racial violence and discrimination.

And also, they were the first to sue a state to provide public education for minority children – Tape Vs Hurley January 9 1885. The state of California was made to provide education to any Chinese children born in the state and subsequently segregated schools were provided. It is considered one of the most important civil rights decisions in America.

I am trying to learn what actually happened as well. I am very interested in US civil rights history for all Americans.

I only brought up one of the court cases. They touched on many different civil rights topics.
For example, Korematsu v. United States (1944) was about the constitutionality of confining loyal law-abiding Americans into internment camps. In that case, the plaintiff lost and the US govt won. That decision has actually never been overturned to this day.

The NAACP formed in 1909 specifically to use the legal and court system to overturn Jim Crow, voting disenfranchisement and a host of other matters. The first major Supreme court decision that NAACP won was Moore v. Dempsey (1923). That did for the due process clause of the 14th amendment as the Wong Kim Ark case did for the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment. Unfortunately, we can find many examples of it not being enforced after that. Look at George Stinney.

The NAACP civil rights achievements really took off after Thurgood Marshall got on board in the 1930s, which culminated in Brown vs. Board (1954).

A lot of people from many different backgrounds have contributed to civil rights progress in the US. It is not a contest.

I am starting to wonder if early 20th century African-American activists might have taken a cue from Asian-Americans who had already been using the courts to fight for civil rights for several decades before the NAACP was established. I need to research this.

I still don’t get why some people think it is some sort of contest. We all take cues from different champions of civil rights at different times and we are all trying to go in the same direction. At times African-Americans followed the example of championing civil rights by Asian-Americans; at other times, it was the reverse.

It felt like it to me. I know Wong’s case did create the amendment, but it didn’t feel like a Civil rights case, more for immigration in general. Why I say this is because there weren’t obvious racial injustice that were spoken about his race or his opinion about mistreatment of other minorities. It felt like to me, that his argument was mostly his American Citizenship than racial injustice.

I guess one should ask is there really a difference between both? I guess I should ask myself that most importantly.

But I do agree, at the end of the day he did transform the political stances when it comes to minorities. It is truly hard to say who did what, but in the end, each and all of us have transformed many things to what things are today. We may not know it, but we have.

We all have borrowed from each culture to the next to help us Heck, I just discovered yesterday that the Creator of the Black Panthers borrowed from other foreign leaders from around the world to help put the organization in the first place.

It felt like it to me. I know Wong’s case did create the amendment, but it didn’t feel like a Civil rights case, more for immigration in general.

Again, that civil rights case was NOT about immigration. Wong Kim Ark was a native born American citizen and NOT an immigrant. It is about the issue of removing citizenship rights from persons who are already native born US citizens.

Now, I understand. You were thinking with your heart before your mind. You thought I was trying to insult someone or belittle them somehow when I wasn’t trying to do that at all.

Maybe we can get a taste of what I suspect white people feel when we call out their racism. It is a kind of emotional knee jerk reaction that causes them to want to deflect it, deny it, derail it, as if calling out a racist behavior is the same as calling someone a bad person. They don’t want to listen to the truth. You just insulted them.

But, in actuality, you did not insult them. You merely pointed out how a behavior is racist. Maybe we can respond by saying, “Please explain why you found my behavior racist?”

Asian-American civil rights struggles have benefited all Americans, including blacks. African-American civil rights struggles likewise has benefited and impacted all other Americans. It does not boil down to who did what first or more.

But, for example, Sondis’s assertion that Blacks were the champion of the Civil Rights movement and everyone else followed suit is technically inaccurate. It is not a matter of who did more when or where or how, but we have to revise that statement a bit. I am not saying anyone is a bad person.

Do you have a blog or something?
Because it would be nice if you created such topics like these, like Abagond has done.

I don’t think I have the time or persistence to keep up a blog like this. Just preparing a few guest posts already took up a lot of time. I have a couple more drafts in progress, but it seems like I just can’t get them done very quickly. And if I get busy, I can just drop out for a while. Not so if you are actually maintaining a blog.

I do wonder if Abagond got peeved if he felt like I hijacked a couple threads here and there. But I’m learning a lot too. The most interesting things are learning how much we don’t know.

And thanks to you, I am also learning about how to handle myself in a forum space such as this.

“Again, that civil rights case was NOT about immigration. Wong Kim Ark was a native born American citizen and NOT an immigrant. It is about the issue of removing citizenship rights from persons who are already native born US citizens.

Why do you think it has anything to do with immigration?”

It was about the status of persons born in the U.S. to foreign non-naturalized, immigrant parents. It set the precedent that anyone born in the U.S. is a citizen regardless of their parents status. That’s what it has to do with immigration. It’s a precedent some people have objected to in the current battle over illegal immigration.

^Indirectly, yes, but that case was more about removing the citizenship rights of someone who had previously been recognized and acknowledged to be a US citizen for reasons that have to do with his race.

So, it is less about immigration per se, and more about removing citizenship rights from a US citizen for racial reasons.

It was not really about immigration.

Having said that, AFTER that case was determined, it set the stage for the jus soli principle of Natural Born American citizen to be established in the USA. But that was more a corollary that followed the court decision, not the basis for it.

The interesting thing about the Wong Kim Ark decision was that it paved the way for Chinese-Americans to seek and find ways to circumvent the Chinese Exclusion Act regulations, further assisted by the San Francisco earthquake of 1906.

Thanks, Sorry I just get defensive especially when it comes to people of color. You know how it is on the internet with some of these trolls sometimes. Also I would like to add that, that I wasn’t trying to “downplay” what Wong had done for people here in the U.S. I just thought it felt more like a immigration, but you are still correct nevertheless. Just thought to throw that out there.

I do agree also that whites are sometimes hit harder when they make a mistake when it comes to the issue of race. It’s not that we, POC try to pick a fight or a “uproar”. It’s just that everytime we let our guard down and believe they have good intentions, it’s always something with ill intent in the end. But I agree, that we must be on the same boat at the end of the day.

I’m also learning things on this website and have to uncloud the ignorance/blindness.

“Blacks are white-washed too. We all got white-washed growing up and educated in America. Heck, whites are white-washed. “

I agree 100%. My point is that Asians – perhaps more than all minorities – have very little control over how we are represented or talked about in mainstream America. Thus, have this idea about what Asians “are like” but the image is almost entirely created by the media and a culture that excludes Asian participation.

After seeing how people react, I find that we all have been white-washed about civil rights history. Most of us don’t know about much of African-American civil rights history and basically nil about Asian-American, Native American and Mexican-American history.

But, the saddest of all is how the Model minority stereotype has contributed to the disenfranchisement of civil rights in this country FOR EVERYONE, including African-Americans. I think it is a large part of the reason this country started heading in reverse.

– it directs some of the anger and energy of African-Americans towards Asian-Americans, who appear to be kissing up to whites (in the eyes of African-Americans) (deflecting anger that should be directed towards whites)
– it pits racial minorities against each other, weakening their collective efforts
– it makes Asian-Americans passive about fighting for their own civil rights
– it leave white people off the hook — by showing that minorities can “make it” in the USA — it is not white people’s fault about blacks
– it creates rationale for removing affirmative action

– it makes African-Americans, when they do gain awareness of civil rights issues, to completely ignore what happens to others and believe it to be unimportant or unrelated to them. For example, they might learn about Emmett Till, but know zilch about Vincent Chin; they have heard of the 1921 Tulsa Race Riots, but heard squat about the Rock Springs Massacre. And they can focus attention on Trayvon Martin and completely ignore Danny Chen.

– but to me, the SADDEST OF ALL, it leaves Asian-Americans with complete collective amnesia about Asian-American history. It even allows sociologists like Feagin to ignore most of the body of experience when postulating about racial frames.

If you are wondering how this happens, let’s take a trip back to 1966 when the following US News and World Report came out with the initial concept of “model minority” in “Success Story of One Minority Group in U.S”.

As you can see, there is a disclaimer on the front page. And when they mentioned 300,000 Chinese-Americans, please realize that this is just a fraction of the number that existed in 1880. So despite this article occurring AFTER the Chinese Exclusion Act was repealed and the 1965 Immigration and Naturalization Act was passed, the numbers had plummetted and just started to rebound. All I can say is, how DARE the USA engage in almost 100 years of genocide policy towards Asians and then all of a sudden do an about face to put something forward to counter black civil rights activism. Makes me puke!

And when I see people like Sondis et al start foaming at the mouth, I am not upset about him at all, but it makes me realize that the model minority stereotype is functioning EXACTLY AS INTENDED. Damn those cunning little white b*st*rds!

My point is that Asians – perhaps more than all minorities – have very little control over how we are represented or talked about in mainstream America. Thus, have this idea about what Asians “are like” but the image is almost entirely created by the media and a culture that excludes Asian participation.

I started realizing something was quirky by the time I was 14-15. There was NO mention of the Asian-American genocide in the US history textbooks. There was NO mention of the WWII Internment camps. There was actually very very little about the African-American civil rights experience and about why European immigrants became “white” but not everyone else and about what happened to the Native Americans. So, I spent the next 5-6 years trying to catch up and I have not stopped ever since.

One of my university schoolmates (born in Hawaii and classmate of Barack Obama at Punahou) is married to a Chinese-American who grew up in Boise, Idaho. I met with them a few times a couple months ago when they were passing through. I found out that she was completely unaware of the Chinese-American ethnic cleansing in Idaho — didn’t even know that it happened. She was totally unaware of the history of the Chinese community there spanning back to the mid-19th century. I could only think, OMG, they did it. They totally erased the history. 😮

Just want to express my thanks for this blog. As a white person whose way of looking at things has always been essentially the “liberty and justice frame,” but who has been confused and weak on racial questions, I feel like I’m finding the language for the first time to understand the meaning of racism, and to understand how and why white “post-racial” egalitarianism is just a mask for racism. This blog is an immense help to me in sorting all this out. It’s also making me really pissed off about the racist system that whites are so massively invested in ignoring. Thank you.

I should say, partially thanks to you, I perhaps did not realize how pervasive the Model Minority Kool-aid has become in the USA. I guess I am just old enough to remember when the model minority stereotype was just developing. Now it is fully entrenched in the culture. Whites, Asians, blacks are all drinking it. A full generation has grown up on it. Scary.

I do believe that it is one of the reasons civil rights progress in the USA has gone in reverse.

You know what’s even more absurd? Chinese people kissing up to whites. In China, the enthusiasm I saw the Chinese had for whites was so immense, it was borderline worship. I guess you wouldn’t know about that.

The only “kissing up” I’ve personally witnessed were lovely Chinese ladies lifting up for a snog, though I attribute that more to my roguish charms rather than to race.

I’ve met a number of flinty Chinese-born men who were alpha business types and pretty damn tough. Maybe you run with a softer crowd.

Kiwi:

Right. And the present day poverty, cheap labor, and sweatshops in Asia have nothing to do with enriching Western countries’ living standards. Western imperialism had nothing to do with that. Riiiiiiight.

At least in China, those “sweatshops” have resulted in a meteoric economic rise, with 10’s if not 100’s of millions lifted out of poverty, and the re-emergence of China as a global powerhouse.

I feel a lil embaressed for saying this, but for awhile now I have been reading race related issues when it came to Asian Americans and Native Americans… And I’m shocked honestly, I thought atleast both would do pretty well,(Not in a “Model Minority” way,)Especially Native Americans(Since they have land protected laws/Rules)….. But not even close. In fact Native Americans HAVE THE SAME PROBLEMS as African Americans in this country if not worse. I was outraged, because how could this happen? I really thought the laws the natives had would atleast protect them a little bit more than the rest of minorities from America’s Racist policies, but sadly no. And then I’m starting to notice Asian American men are now feeling the same negative affects Black women are receiving to the opposite sex dealing with internalized racism, racial misogyny/misandry and the issue of culture in their community. It’s like dang, was anyone doing better? But I agree 100% of what you said, everyone has been brainwashed/bamboozled into thinking “Atleast one of our counterparts has gotten a leg up”. When in fact it’s just a illusion and deflection to hide from the truth.

The link you sent me, thank you. I was taken aback also, on how America was basically going on and on about how much “Chinese are progressing”. Giving themselves a pat on the back for helping the “Poor and clueless” chinese get on the “right track. It’s like they were literally living through the bodies of Chinese and Asians!
I found it interesting how they kept trying to throw shade to Blacks and minorities in each subject, basically making it sound like “God, blacks and minorities, but MOSTLY BLACKS. ALWAYS keep complaining…UNLIKE Asians!! Who work hard without crying for “handouts!!”.”*Insert condescending smirk and arm fold*”.

Ugh, it’s was just SOOOO irritating, the attitude in this article. I couldn’t even finish it. God, who wrote this article?(I’m serious)
And my Fav part:

“If you had several hundred thousand Chinese-Americans subjected to the same economic and social pressures that confront NEGROES in major cities, you would have a GOOD DEAL of UNREST among them. At the same time, it must be recognized that the Chinese and OTHER ORIENTALS were faced with EVEN MORE prejudice than the faces of negroes today. We haven’t stuck Negroes in concentration camps, for instance, as we did Japanese in WWII. The orientals came back, and today they have established themselves as strong contributors to the health of the whole community”.

UGH!! *disgusted face*
Nice how they did the whole “divide and conquer” in the mix.

“t’s also making me really pissed off about the racist system that whites are so massively invested in ignoring.”—I would suggest putting the angry towards other things. Don’t let it consume you. What is done is done and the next step is more so fixing it.

@Drosera
It seems like you now have a better idea of what happened. I haven’t read that article by Frank Wu before, but he does point out how Asians are used as a tool by whites to dismantle Affirmative Action, which is exactly what I said.

In a nutshell:
– 1850s-1880s: Chinese were trafficked into the USA as the equivalent of slaves
– 1880s – 1940s: Asian-Americans (mostly Chinese, Japanese, but others too) were stripped of their civil rights, and subject to massive events of lynching, genocide, (or in the Japanese-American Internment incident, near genocide)), starting with the Chinese Exclusion Act. But at the same time, they fought vigourously back through the courts and legal system. They never had any representation in Congress or State Legislatures to help them fight for civil rights. They generally did not have whites join them for the cause of civil rights. The only tool was the legal system which they did use.
– post WWII – the US foreign policy shifted to Asia. Asian-Americans USED by the USA as a sort of buffer, first against the Japanese, then against communist expansion
– 1943 Repeal of the Chinese Exclusion Act, and more importantly, the Immigration and Naturalization Act of 1965: Finally allows families to renunite after nearly a century of displacement
– 1960s: the concept of “Model Minority” is invented as a tool by whites to counter the civil rights awareness among blacks.
-1960s – 1980s: Asian-Americans do join the bandwagon of the civil rights movement that was largely led by blacks
– 1980s-1990s: the Model Minority stereotype is entrenched in US culture: as a backlash against black thugs and welfare queens, a justification for ending affirmative action which “hurts” whites (because it “hurts” Asians), as a divide and conquer tactic, and to whitewash Americans even further, causing them to be unaware of their own history. Most key: it lets whites off the hook.
– 2000s: Civil rights are being eroded again FOR EVERYONE

I know some will hammer me again, and again, it is not a contest, just an observation of history (very very simplified in a nutshell)
– early 1600s – early 1800s Africans are trafficked into the USA, first as indentured servants, than as forced labour, finally as chattel
– early 1800s to 1860 Blacks were still trafficked internally as chattel, but some are “freed” which just means not chattel. The main civil rights issue was slavery itself, ie, its abolition. Both blacks and whites were involved in abolishing slavery and to helping blacks escape to freedom, mostly in the North.
– 1861-1865 The civil war
– 1860s-1890s The US was in Reconstruction. Blacks had significant representation in Congress and State Legislatures and city governments. Blacks had just been released from Slavery (which was the main civil rights issue in the 19th century). They believed that their representatives would continue the enfranchisement of civil rights for them, and there was not as much active vigourous fight for civil rights among individual blacks (as opposed to among Asians at that time).
– 1890s- early 1900s: After the 1895 Atlanta Compromise and the Plessy vs. Ferguson decision, civil rights for blacks took a decided turn for the worse. Jim Crow was established. Blacks reliquinshed their political power. The KKK grew in strenghth and power. The main powerful champion for this submission to whites: Booker T. Washington.
– 1900s – 1920s: Another camp was formed led by W.E.B Dubois and the Talented Tenth, starting with the Niagara Movement. They formed the NAACP and started to keep records of civil rights abuses and stage protests. After Washington’s death in 1915, some of his supporters shifted to the other side. Lynching and massacres were common in the USA (but I still stand by my ground that it was not nearly on the same scale as what happened to Asians, where 2/3 of the population was simply wiped out – I do agree with the US News and World report article on that point, that genocide and lynching was far worse for Asians than for Blacks – but again, it is not a contest). Whites were not supportive of this movement, except in the case of Jews, which empathized more with blacks in the early 20th century.
-1910s-1920s (and later 1940s-1970s): African-American migration — blacks became a force in the North also
– late 1910s – 1950s the NAACP and others start to use the courts and legal system to enforce civil rights for blacks. It culminates in Brown vs. Board (1954). (I still stand by my ground that blacks started doing this on a significant scale well after Asians, who started doing this 40 years earlier). Meanwhile, lynching continued.
– 1955 – 1968 main period for the African-American civil rights movement
– 1960s – 1980s: affirmative action, desegregation and re-enfranchisment of many civil rights. People felt comfortable to talk about racial injustice in public.
– 1980s-1990s: Negative stereotypes pushed, Black men incarcerated at higher rates. the model minority stereotype was promoted as a tool to dis-enfranchise civil rights. Growth of Political correctness (where we don’t talk about race any more).
2000s: Civil rights enfranchisment backlash. Fake colour-blind racism. Civil rights are being eroded again FOR EVERYONE.

We could do a similar timeline for Native Americans, but the point is clear. There is a civil rights struggle for everyone. Asians and Native Americans, just as African-Americans have suffered from civil rights abuses to a huge extent. But the model minority stereotype is being used to dis-enfranchise. I hope that everyone can see this and recognize that we must eradicate this concept to help everyone.

I am beginning to believe that the Perpetual Foreigner Stereotype is being used to support the Model Minority Stereotype. How? The Model Minority Stereotype only works if the “model minority” remains a visible minority. Jews do not work as well as an example of the model minority (even though, by all counts, they should work well as a model minority in comparison at least to white ethnics) because, they do not remain a visible minority. Many whites will mistake a Jew for any other white person if he can act and think more like an Anglo white. So, the USA can only allow Asians to think that they can be honorary whites, and not for one split second think that they can actually be white. How do you accomplish this? –> Perpetual Foreigner.

Wow, that was deep.and you broke it down 100%
This is really true and shows this country is really gonna go down if we do not speak up. America is slowly trying to use all these deflections and now “token mininorites” to support their claim as well.

Their trying really hard to mix this all in politics and people are starting to buy into it. Explaining all these “Race Realist,Survivalist, etc etc.”

I am afraid if history will paint Barack Obama in the same light as Booker T. But I think that it won’t be as bad, as he did appoint Eric Holder and Obama has vigorously defended him. And Eric Holder is more active in fighting for civil rights and publicly denounced the concept of colour-blind racism. Maybe he is acting as the proxy for what Obama should be doing, but isn’t.

I still don’t quite understand what is up with Guantánamo Bay. That is a mystery to me.

When I talk to other Asians (especially East Asians) about white racism I typically find that I have to be careful of what I say about white people, as often, the Asian I speak to will usually take the side of whites and will jump to white people’s defense. I sometimes even detect wariness and hostility when I talk to East Asians about white racism, as if they are uncomfortable with the idea of harming white people’s image. Many Asians who I speak to about white racism use so many white racist deflections (Arab trader argument, not all whites are racist, blacks are equally racist, blah blah) in addition to some stereotypes of said minorities that I wonder if most Asian-Americans are honorary white or white-identified.

The reason this strikes me as strange is not the phenomenon of Asians defending whites by itself, but the fact that when I talk to other non-Asian minorities, I feel much more comfortable. I usually do not detect the same wariness or hostility that other Asians give, but instead, the usual response is understanding and empathy. I noticed that Muslim Asian-Americans are especially anti-racist and are the most likely to empathize when I talk about white racism.

I suspect this has to do with Asians being subject to the Model Minority stereotype but I’m curious about what you think.

I hope you can at least have the intellectual honesty … to admit to yourself that racism is much worse almost everywhere else in the world.

I just found out that Dubai is developing the world’s largest Chinatown. I also found out a while back that the Chinatown nearest where I lived had been burned down intentionally by whites multiple times. He is right, though. I experienced much more racism by whites in Europe than I have in America. I even faced some prejudice by whites while visiting both Asia and Africa. OMG, what a dumbass. My stomach is hurting from laughing so hard…

re: internalized racism/self-hatred among PoC not living under White rule

I would argue that people of color who live in non-White dominated countries don’t suffer internalized racism. They suffer from White worship. I noticed this in Somali Prince, who commented here for a while. I’ve also noticed this to be common among immigrants, especially, and I regard it as very distinct from internalized racism. For non-immigrant people of color without recent immigrant ancestry living in White-dominated countries, this mindset can easily be mistaken for “wanting to become White”.

I chalk it up to having a strong “home culture frame” while at the same time lacking a strong “counter-frame” in opposition to the “White racial frame”. Those with a strong “home culture frame” but a weak “counter-frame” tend not to have internalized racism but are susceptible to White worship whereas those with a weak “home culture frame” but a strong “counter-frame” tend not to worship Whiteness but still suffer internalized racism regardless of how racially conscious or aware they become.