i think people get too distracted by what they perceive to be his arrogance, but when was it a sin to be an arrogant popstar? and i find it interesting how much people hate him for that, it seems odd. i actually like kanye's arrogance - its what i like (and also dislike) and expect from my rappers (also why i like rick ross), esp when its done with humour, which it is with him - he is frequently hilarious with his outbursts (and if you listen to his interviews, there is more to him than that, in his podcast with brett easton ellis he comes off as quite self effacing, humble, and even insecure about how he is being received). more importantly, i think he has the talent to back it up, considering how many standout songs hes produced over the years. hes never technically been the 'greatest' rapper but i would rather listen to him than most of his contemporaries in mainstream rap. he is never, ever boring.

i think people get too distracted by what they perceive to be his arrogance, but when was it a sin to be an arrogant popstar? and i find it interesting how much people hate him for that, it seems odd. i actually like kanye's arrogance - its what i like (and also dislike) and expect from my rappers (also why i like rick ross), esp when its done with humour, which it is with him - he is frequently hilarious with his outbursts (and if you listen to his interviews, there is more to him than that, in his podcast with brett easton ellis he comes off as quite self effacing, humble, and even insecure about how he is being received). more importantly, i think he has the talent to back it up, considering how many standout songs hes produced over the years. hes never technically been the 'greatest' rapper but i would rather listen to him than most of his contemporaries in mainstream rap. he is never, ever boring.

agreed about the insecurity, i felt sorry for him watching the sway interview. in the same way i feel sorry for David Brent, while pissing myself laughing

that was a good read. kanye is interesting because he doesnt seem to have any awareness of how much of a tragic archetype he is now, in his status-envy. if you watch that sway interview, he honestly does seem to think that he has somehow made it, or made it further to the top of what success means at least, by having a (white) woman like kim kardashian on his arm.

Droid, are you talking about Jay-Z NOW or EVER? Everybody knows he's slightly rubbish now but he has a big catalogue of classic songs, and has proved himself as a lyricist on numerous occasions (as well as having one of the most charismatic deliveries in rap music over the years).

Re: the thing about Kanye complaining about not being allowed to be a billionare. This reminds me of Chris Rock's routine about the difference between being wealthy and rich, and how black people are allowed to be rich but not wealthy. I think Kanye's perspective on it is more egotistical than that, the mewling of a frustrated narcissist, but OTOH I do think there is an argument somewhere in his sometimes incoherant rants about how white america/corporations profit off black culture without letting black people get on the same level of power and influence. Charlamagne is right to criticise Kanye for attacking corporations while shilling for them, but then I suppose Kanye is saying that unless you can get on the same level as those megarich companies, you can't really take them on in any meaningful way. AGAIN - it'd be naive to think that Kanye's ego might not be the main thing at stake here FOR KAYNE, but at the same time, an artist operating on the level of visiblity as Kanye has more real power to make a statement than an underground rapper selling records to a couple of thousands of hip-hop nerds. Whether or not he's getting that message out there is another thing entirely.

Can't really get into this or even sort my thoughts out cos I'm at work but cheers for the contribution rubberdinghy, very interesting to read.

The thing that perplexes me about Kayne is how divisive he is. Those who don't like him rarely just dislike and move on, they often seem to harbour a slightly irrational hate for him. I guess that a product of the widespread and pretty fervent critical acclaim he's received, that runs contrary to their personal opinion.

lately he's begun to strikes me as j lennon (cutting edge avatar of pop not afraid to speak his mind on politics/social/etc but usually coming across as a totally out of touch asshole hypocrite rockstar even whilst making valid points) + yoko ono (legitimately brilliant but highly prentious and personally unpleasant conceptual artist who has to deal with endless racially-coded criticism that obscures his real faults in racial and other bullshit) combined into one person, filtered through 30+ years of rap culture and hyperaccelerated through a popular culture of celebratory social media narcissism (this is definitely a stupid question, but can you imagine the beatles in the age of twitter? jesus wept). I'm not bothered by the contradiction of attacking corporations while shilling for them, he's hardly the first or millionth rock star to do that, or by his other contradictions - pop at its core is about contradiction (the Sex Pistols are the go-to example I've seen academic-minded music writers use) - but he takes them and everything to this massively delusional level. and he brings a great deal of his troubles onto himself, sometimes for noble reasons but frequently not. he has a whiff of Greek tragedy about him, with the fatal flaw of like, ego insecurity or some more accurate German word that expresses that concept.

I've never really been a close follower of his music but whenever I hear it he's doing something interesting (if not new - whoever said he's our current king cultural vampire was dead on) that surprises me. that taiko drums thing, the industrialish vibes in that SNL performance (also read a quote by him somewhere about how he really wanted to put Chicago house influence into this new record - I'd Kanye has an encyclopedic knowledge of that stuff, he's nothing if not a record nerd). sure he can't rap but it's not really the point. the point is to be Kanye the metaphenomenon/producing genius.

this is off the cuff cos I'm short of time but I do think he's a really interesting figure worthy of further discussion

Droid, are you talking about Jay-Z NOW or EVER? Everybody knows he's slightly rubbish now but he has a big catalogue of classic songs, and has proved himself as a lyricist on numerous occasions (as well as having one of the most charismatic deliveries in rap music over the years).

I stopped paying attention a long time ago TBH. He's a 2nd rate 90's MC who made it big through canny business sense and marketing. Its funny you mention charisma as I cant see an ounce of it. He's a virtual blank, almost completely void of character. In fact, I think the reason he got so big was precisely because he is so dull. Nas, at least, had a bit of substance behind him.

That said, its unfair to put him in the same bracket as Kanye. Jay-z is second rate, but kanye doesnt even have the basics of the craft.

The thing that perplexes me about Kayne is how divisive he is. Those who don't like him rarely just dislike and move on, they often seem to harbour a slightly irrational hate for him. I guess that a product of the widespread and pretty fervent critical acclaim he's received, that runs contrary to their personal opinion.

TBF, I imagine most who dislike him simply ignore him. I watched bound recently and was cast anew into astonishment that such a joker has even sold a single record, let alone millions.

before I go tho Droid if you're talking about Jay-Z lately (the last 10-12 years or so) then yeah, he sucks. but if you mean always, no way. yeah he ripped off his old flows from Jaz-O and Kane and Biggie (Nas goes into detail either on Ether or something else, can't remember) but he still had them, Reasonable Doubt is justifiably a canon LP of the mid-late 90s NYC rap and a lot of his late 90s output was good to killer.

also irrational hatred Kanye inspires - surely some racial elements in its persistence, as well as natural aversion to any massively hyped figure. and again there are few things more irritating than a rockstar dilettante (many, many people absolutely cannot stand Bono in a different version of the same thing, or Bob Geldof etc), no one likes to hear multimillionaire ultracelebrities with top .00000001% quality of life complaining about anything, valid or not, etc

yes his music has transcended the world of hip hop and yes his music does incorporate and influence a wide range of music outside rap

but fundamentally, hell not even fundamentally in general he is a rapper making rap beats and labelling him such doesn't make his achievements, music or importance any less vital

i think for dissensus, late graduation co-produced with jon brion would be a good place to start, factually his best album is college dropout and i stopped listening to kanye before graduation came out but that is recognised as his most focused no filler release so maybe listen to that second?

kanye is the eno, bowie, hell even john cale of our generation

but i will never forgive him for a) taking the edge out of rap and b) inspiring men to dress in bizarre leather ensembles

I honestly don't understand how anyone rates him. He's a joke. His rhymes and delivery are appalling. His production is shit apart from the odd occasion where he steals a nice loop from someone. Its as if someone took wiley and pickled him in cocaine for 10 years - except without the groundbreaking early work.

Originally Posted by droid

Im not claiming to be all that familiar with his work as I avoid it as much as I can.

Jay-z is pretty shit too. Amazing how the two biggest stars in hip hop can barely rap at all.

two amazing posts. the second quote is particularly noteworthy containing not one but two thirty yard top corner screamers of clueless-ness. self professed on the authors behalf mind u.

Originally Posted by Corpsey

808s and Heartbreak is my favourite Kanye album wot I've heard so far

Originally Posted by Trillhouse

I love that fact that Yeezus is in many ways a European produced rap record

The thing that perplexes me about Kayne is how divisive he is. Those who don't like him rarely just dislike and move on, they often seem to harbour a slightly irrational hate for him. I guess that a product of the widespread and pretty fervent critical acclaim he's received, that runs contrary to their personal opinion.

A lot of people who don't really listen to or like rap only know about the taylor swift thing and the south park episode, and the only time he really gets in the media is when he's rude to a paparazzi. In the mainstream he's just kind of an embodiment of negative rapper stereotypes.