Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day012.16
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20
Q. Read on, please.
A. Yes. Moreover, the last main session in the affair of the
trial of Schenk has resulted in the information that the
first known death, a case for the killing of a Jew, and it
was a Polish national, was reported to Reichs propaganda
. P-137
minister, Dr Goebbels, at about 2 a.m., towards 2 a.m.
"gegen 2 Uhr", on November 10th, and that on this
occasion the view was expressed that something must happen
to prevent that the entire operation, the entire Aktion,
got out of hand, became dangerous, according to what the
deputy Gauleiter of Upper Bavaria said. Dr Goebbels
replied in the sense that the messenger should not get so
upset about the death of one Jew. Over the next few days
thousands of Jews would be going for a Burton.
Q. Yes. Can you just read on?
A. At this time most of the killings could have been
prevented, could still have been prevented, by an
amplifying directive. If this was not issued, if this did
not happen, from this fact, as also from that remark by
itself, you had to draw the conclusion that the result
that happened was actually desired, and at the very least
was considered to be possible and desirable.
Q. Could you finish the paragraph, please?
A. It is terrible, translating German.
Q. I am terribly sorry and it is entirely our fault for not
having a translation which you agree with.
A. Translating it on the fly is difficult and I have been
accused of distorting and mistranslating and here I am
going on the record with my translation.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is most unsatisfactory.
MR RAMPTON: There is a translation in Professor Evans. It is
. P-138
one you will not accept and therefore I have to ask you to
do it.
A. Quite clearly, if he says that somebody is going to have
to believe in it when in fact the correct German sense is
someone is going to go for a Burton, then it is a very
gross mistranslation.
Q. I am sorry about this. I know it is tiring and I do
sympathise. I mean that sincerely. Could you please just
finish this paragraph?
A. Yes. Then the individual actor or perpetrator has not
only put into effect the intended, but also the
uncertainly expressed but properly recognized desire of
the leadership, and for that he cannot be punished.
Q. That is right and so no doubt he was not.
A. Yes.
Q. He would be one of those who was not handed over to the
State prosecution system?
A. Numbers were and numbers were not.
Q. Two things about it, Mr Irving, and I do apologise.
I will not make you do it again this afternoon or ask you
to do it, I should say. Two things about that. It is
quite strong evidence, is it not, that, so far from what
Wederman said he had heard reported, Goebbels was not on
the telephone that evening trying to stop the rot. He was
on the telephone rejoicing in the death of one Jew and in
the thought that many thousands more were going to die.
. P-139
Moreover, the one that did kill the one Jew on this
occasion was let off because the Nazi tribunal perceived
that he had been carrying out the will of the leadership.
That is right, is it not?
A. The latter part is true. The former part I would dispute
or I would amplify it to the following effect. This
telephone call reporting the death of the one Jew is
stated in this document as having been shortly before
2 o'clock, or towards 2 o'clock "gegen 2 Uhr". I think
around 2 o'clock is when Goebbels got his epiphany, when
the news came of the burning of the synagogue next to the
Hotel Vierjahreszeiten, when Hitler was alarmed as to what
was going on, things were getting out of hand, the police
chief was sent for, and shortly afterwards at 2.56 Rudolf
Hess sent out that famous message to all the Gauleiters
ordering a stop to whatever they were stopping.
Q. You just looked at the message?
A. Yes, but I think that it fits perfectly into the
time-scale which says that it was around about 2 o'clock
or shortly thereafter that Goebbels realized he was
barking right up the wrong tree.
Q. You translated it, the order from Hess is simply that
shops and other things like that are not to be burned.
A. The order from Hess says that there is to be no burning of
shops and things like that.
Q. That is right.
. P-140
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is there really no indication even of how
that Rudolf Hess's message was interpreted?
A. I did say, my Lord, that it trickled down through the
system during the night and that things were then stopped
but by that time everything is ablaze. The following
morning Goebbels realizes that things have got out of
hand, it is very bad for Germany's image, the image of
Germany as a state of law and order has been badly
shattered by this. But the hours between 2 a.m. and 3
a.m., the crucial hours which I have tried to look at in
this particular night, and we have the eyewitness accounts
from Hitler's private staff, we have that one telegram
from Hitler's deputy going out, very much in a negative
sense. Mr Rampton says it was in a narrow negative sense,
I would say it was in a broader negative sense.
Q. If you look at it in the round, can you think of a reason
why Jewish businesses or shops should have been singled
out for protection, if that is the right interpretation?
A. You can certainly see reasons why, my Lord. You can say
the businesses and shops were probably a shoe shop in the
centre of a big apartment block, and, if you are going to
set that on fire, you are going to endanger a lot of
non-Jewish property. Put it like that. I can certainly
see that there are other reasons that may have justified
the narrower meaning. But we have added on to it the fact
that it is not only the acts of arson, but also the like
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have to be stopped.
Q. I follow that.
A. It was a message that was sent out in great haste. It is
certainly does not fit in with the general pattern of
trying to trigger or to ignite things. This is very much
with a minus sign in front of it.
Q. Were the Jewish businesses -- maybe this is too broad a
question -- and shops Jewish owned?
A. This came out in the subsequent enquiry that Herman Goring
held, that most of the damage that had been inflicted had
been inflicted on the German economy for several reasons.
Firstly, the plate glass windows that were smashed had to
be replaced with plate glass supplied by Belgium at the
cost of foreign currency. Secondly, the insurance that
the Jews had taken out on their property had to be paid by
the German insurance companies. Thirdly, the stores and
even the stocks that they sold were being sold on
commission. They were stocks physically owned by German
banks and being sold on commission by the Jewish vendors.
Q. Would all or any of that explain why the businesses and
shops were singled out?
A. Not at this time, my Lord. This was an ugly realisation.
We are very well informed on that because two or three
days Herman Goring held a conference at the Air Ministry
which was recorded in shorthand, and we have the entire
stenographic record where everybody is pointing a finger
. P-142
at everybody else and saying you are to blame for this.
Herman Goring utters the famous phrase, it is about time
that Dr Goebbels got a little bit of public enlightenment,
which was the name of his ministry.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, Mr Rampton, for interrupting.
MR RAMPTON: That is all right, my Lord. I am just wondering
whether I would go back to something else but I think not?
A. It gave me a chance to display what I know.
Q. In any event, Mr Irving, however you like to characterize
that message, it is not, is it, a blanket prohibition
against the destruction of, or damage to, Jewish property
generally?
A. No, it is not.
Q. No. My Lord, I am in this position now. We are all
waiting for Dresden with bated breath, but the file will
not be ready until tomorrow. We need help from Mr Irving
with it anyway because the copies we have of his
discovered documents are in many cases very difficult to
read because they are photocopies of microfilm, a lot of
them.
I have one more brief topic with which I can
deal this afternoon, but I cannot sensibly make a start on
Dresden unless everybody has the documents.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you cannot, you cannot.
MR RAMPTON: We are running to catch up with each other. We
could spend time reading Civil Evidence Act notices
. P-143
perhaps.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: On what topic?
MR RAMPTON: On any old topic really just so that they are read
into court. I do not want to waste the court's time.
There is no point in my starting. Dresden will be the last
of my Evans topics. I shall certainly comfortably
complete that tomorrow and then I shall start on something
else, as it were, more modern.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: More modern being what?
MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving's recent utterances.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Denials?
MR RAMPTON: Denials I think we have done, apart from Moscow,
which I can also do tomorrow. The last topic, either
Moscow or this, is where the speeches are made and who the
people were.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
MR RAMPTON: The political associations, which means that
I think that my cross-examination of Mr Irving will finish
comfortably this week.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
MR RAMPTON: Probably Thursday morning, maybe Wednesday evening.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: There is a witness coming on Thursday.
I cannot remember who it is.
A. Peter Millar. I do not think he will be more than about
an hour.
. P-144
MR RAMPTON: Which presents this difficulty, I am afraid, if
that is right, because I do not think Dresden will take
more than one day, perhaps less. We may have to find
something to do for the rest of this week.
A. I can bring another witness. I can have Dr John Fox in.
MR RAMPTON: That would be very helpful because my Professor
Browning is not arriving until Monday.
A. I can bring in Dr Fox eye this week.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is Browning your next expert?
MR RAMPTON: He is my next witness.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Rather than Evans?
MR RAMPTON: Yes. It is a matter of academic convenience.
That is the only reason. Browning has a full calendar
after next week.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
MR RAMPTON: I do not think he will be very long, so I will
have to have somebody lined up for the later part of next
week.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. You said you had something else that
you want to deal with.
MR RAMPTON: I do. I want to deal very briefly with
Ribbentrop's testimony at Nuremberg. It starts at page
478 of Evans.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you dealing, Mr Rampton -- I am sorry to
keep asking. I just want to know where we are getting in
terms of the summary of your case. Are you going to be
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dealing with the aftermath of Kristallnacht?
MR RAMPTON: No. I made a judgment about that in the light of
the cross-examination this morning.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Does that mean that you are not relying on it
or that it is something that you are relying on but do not
think it is helpful cross-examine on?
MR RAMPTON: It is difficult to rely on whatever Professor
Evans may say about it. It is difficult to rely on it if
it has not been put in cross-examination for Mr Irving to
deal with, I would have said. I do not know what your
Lordship thinks?
A. Could your Lordship explain what that exchange is about?

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