1st bold - we've given him 4 seasons, 3 of which he was a primary scorer (this sounds like the Bargnani debate all over again)

2nd bold - we'd be left with an improved/experienced JV, a healthy KL who should be allowed to play his natural attack style game more often, PLUS an upgraded starting PF who should have a more refined offensive game than AJ and an ability to draw double-teams, PLUS whoever the starting SG is (be it a glue guy like a healthy/improved Fields, an improved Ross or a TBD player). Your analysis of a DeRozan-less starting lineup was definitely incomplete... your DeRozan-bias missed half the non-RG starting lineup!!!

Man, I said this before, before we even discuss letting the bench handle some of the scoring duties maybe we should get a decent bench group together before we start messing around with the starting line-up. That's what I think. Why should we change the starting line-up when our team would probably be pretty damn good if we had better guys on the bench than Lucas, Telfaire, Anderson, Landry, Acy and Gray? That's a fucking terrible bench.

Im a huge DeRozan fan but im a raptor fan first. Derozan was never a first option besides being thrown to that level because of Bargs injuries and there just not being anyone else to help on offense. I'll just say this hes a second option and alongside a consistent threat like Rudy he can shine. I understand though he is the best asset we have for trade, but the kid has talent and should be dealt high.

Man, I said this before, before we even discuss letting the bench handle some of the scoring duties maybe we should get a decent bench group together before we start messing around with the starting line-up. That's what I think. Why should we change the starting line-up when our team would probably be pretty damn good if we had better guys on the bench than Lucas, Telfaire, Anderson, Landry, Acy and Gray? That's a fucking terrible bench.

There was nothing in our conversation about the bench. I absolutely agree that the bench desperately needs to improve.

Our conversation was about the starting lineup, comparing what it currently is and what it would look like if DeRozan were traded for an upgraded starting PF. I was just pointing out that your analysis of the revamped starting lineup was incomplete, since you only mentioned 2 of the 4 starters (aside from Gay) in your evaluation.

I certainly wasn't saying that a DeRozan for a starting PF (ie: Millsap) trade should be the only roster move made, so there's still plenty of opportunity to address the bench.

Ironically, such a trade would actually improve the bench, since Johnson would move into the 2nd unit. A 4th wing would need to be acquired, either to start with Gay (leaving Ross & Fields on the 2nd unit) or to play with the 2nd unit (Fields would likely start, with Ross staying on the 2nd unit).

An upgraded backup PG is an absolute necessity, which could possibly be acquired in a Bargnani deal, or with the MLE. I assume between a Bargnani trade and the MLE, both a backup PG and 4th wing can be acquired.

Even without any additional moves, the lineup would look something like this, which I think represents improvements in both the starting and 2nd units:

There was nothing in our conversation about the bench. I absolutely agree that the bench desperately needs to improve.

Our conversation was about the starting lineup, comparing what it currently is and what it would look like if DeRozan were traded for an upgraded starting PF. I was just pointing out that your analysis of the revamped starting lineup was incomplete, since you only mentioned 2 of the 4 starters (aside from Gay) in your evaluation.

I certainly wasn't saying that a DeRozan for a starting PF (ie: Millsap) trade should be the only roster move made, so there's still plenty of opportunity to address the bench.

Ironically, such a trade would actually improve the bench, since Johnson would move into the 2nd unit. A 4th wing would need to be acquired, either to start with Gay (leaving Ross & Fields on the 2nd unit) or to play with the 2nd unit (Fields would likely start, with Ross staying on the 2nd unit).

An upgraded backup PG is an absolute necessity, which could possibly be acquired in a Bargnani deal, or with the MLE. I assume between a Bargnani trade and the MLE, both a backup PG and 4th wing can be acquired.

Even without any additional moves, the lineup would look something like this, which I think represents improvements in both the starting and 2nd units:

I know there was nothing in your conversation about the bench. I brought it up on my own. I was simply stating unless Derozan is traded for something along the lines of what you suggested there ^ that I don't think we should change the starting line-up. At least not yet.

I know there was nothing in your conversation about the bench. I brought it up on my own. I was simply stating unless Derozan is traded for something along the lines of what you suggested there ^ that I don't think we should change the starting line-up. At least not yet.

But am I not allowed to make that vote?

The way you brought up the bench and added it to our discussion out of the blue threw me off. We're in complete agreement that the 2nd unit needs a big upgrade. However, I'd rather upgrade the starting lineup and let the depth chart domino effect upgrade the 2nd unit by default, than making upgrading the 2nd unit the top priority.

I'm not in favor of trading DeRozan unless an upgraded starting PF who can be part of the core for a number of years is acquired (ie: not even Gasol, since he's too old to be part of the long-term plan). I doubt Gay or Fields are nearly as tradeable, mainly because of their contracts, while Ross's contract is too small to return any significant piece.

For me, it's a matter of trading for equal/better talent, while re-allocating the team's salary to other position ($36.3M is currently going to the top-4 wings in 2013-14: RG, DD, TR, LF - roughly 60% of the total team salary cap). It's not hate/disrespect for DeRozan, it's more a matter of him getting caught in the numbers game (especially with his new deal kicking in next season).

I understand this but then it brings us back to the same discussion thats been had a million times; are Fields or Ross capable starters? That 4th wing guy would have to be a pretty damn good player.

haha that's a whole other debate!

IF DeRozan were traded for a more offensively skilled starting PF, I think the starting SG should be a 3-and-D type player, who doesn't need the ball in his hands or many touches to be successful. Fields from his rookie season fits the bill, as a Tony Allen type player, to complement Gay/Lowry/Valanciunas/new PF (SG would be #4 or #5 scoring option). Obviously he's a big question mark right now, due to his poor season and recovery from injury/surgery. Another option could be to use the MLE to sign a free agent, or to acquire such a player in trade (either as part of DeRozan deal, in a Bargnani deal, or in some other deal), so it's hard to fully evaluate.

It's pretty clear that there are 2 vocal sides to this debate and both sides have legit arguments.

Hopefully Ujiri is lining up moves to make an immediate impact, so that we'll all have a better idea of the direction he intends to take this team and which players currently on the roster he truly values moving forward.