soporific:Waldo Pepper: soporific: Justiceforme: I'm curious... do people scream "socialism!!!" when they're mandated by their state governments to have car insurance? Do people scream "socialism!!!" when they're mandated to pay income tax? Social security tax?

Yes. And if you look back to when Social Security became law, you saw a lot of what we're seeing now. The parallels between then and now are not obscure.

People are going to rant about it, then most people are going to figure out that they are better off under this new policy. They'll either grudgingly admit that maybe it isn't the end of the world, or act like they never opposed it in the first place now that it's working for them.

Driving a car is not a right as is is a privilege so having to buy insurance to go with your decision to own and drive a car wouldn't fall under socialism. We are not forced to pay for airplane, train, subway, bus or taxi insurance as we neither own or operate this mode of transportation.

I feel for the first few years or so there will be this nice grace period where everything will seem to working just fine with healthcare and then we will start seeing the effect this program will have will lousy service, coverage lacking for procedures which used to be paid and the admin side getting rich and bloated off our forced payments into the system.

You do realize that private companies are still running the insurance business, right? The government isn't running insurance, it's just regulating how the insurance business must operate. And to pay for those very good regulations, everyone's got to be in on it. This isn't socialized medicine, this is the kind of plan that conservative Republicans have been championing for decades, only to oppose when the Democrats used it for their plan.

kinda, sorta. If you have a certain government job, you don't pay into SS, you pay into their fund(s).

if you are self employed you can opt out and not pay SS at all.

How does that work? Do you have to be a sole proprietor/partnership, or can some Corp types do that as well?

my dad was a pastor and was considered self employed he could have paid the full 15% SS tax or opt out but not be able to collect off the years of opting out (he put in full 30+ years military/gov so he had that time in ss)

I think he was using a religious exemption not a business one. However, I know not tax law.

maybe and I also believe if you incorporate yourself you may opt out.

Apologies for keeping this thread going, but incorporation won't allow you to opt out of SS. There exists a particular strategy for reducing SS payments that calls for you to incorporate yourself, but you can't legally "opt out". There are a few states that have alternatives to SS payments if you work in government, and there's a religious exemption, but that's about it.

So, the other day, the government decides to increase my taxes. Simply because I rent my house and didn't buy it. Why do all those home owners have to pay less taxes?

Then, not only did they increase taxes for not owning a home, they also increased taxes on me because I don't have children. The act of not doing something (farking for procreation) caused the government to increase my taxes.

I'm assuming that you....- drive on roads that get to your rented home- receive goods, services and information from those children you didn't personally educate- will also receive healthcare services from those same children - all grown up now.

What dunderheads like you refuse to understand is that no man is an island unto himself. Unless you're gonna go live on a deserted island, you benefit in ways large and small from the overall tax structure - and yes, that will include the new healthcare system even if you don't see it yet.

The country was already pretty messed up. That's why I always throw my cigarette butts out the window.

You just made my faves :)I am getting a sailboat once the wife finishes her PhD. I can't wait to use it and leave her and this shiathole behind. Farkin illegals marrying gay octomom houseplants. It really doesn't help living near Detroit. Kinda like reading the first 4 fark comments on any given article. I think TFership now requires dutch ruddering each other's neck beards over a picture of Romney all the while chanting "cool beans" and "faux news" until they both become funny again.

/anyone who has worked in healthcare as it is currently and knows the govt's ability to fark things up should know that this will be hilarious in about 2 years.//$60,000/yr janitor in my hospital? It's more likely than you think, taxpayer.

Phinn:Or, you'd open up the supply of medical care providers, especially for low-end routine matters, thus breaking the government-sponsored protectionist cartel that has driven up costs for 100 years. (You don't need 14 years of higher education to treat the sniffles.)

True you don't need to go to a doctor for stuff like that.

But I also wouldn't trust my health to someone whose highest degree was earned at Hollywood Upstairs Medical College.

Phinn:That's where you'd be wrong. If that's how you define the problem with health care (and I agree it is one of them), then ObamaTax is not how a rational person would go about solving it.

You don't go about solving the problem of people receiving free care paid for by your tax dollars by making them pay into the system? Yeah you're just going to spin spin spin like an ice skater. Good day

The country was already pretty messed up. That's why I always throw my cigarette butts out the window.

You just made my faves :)I am getting a sailboat once the wife finishes her PhD. I can't wait to use it and leave her and this shiathole behind. Farkin illegals marrying gay octomom houseplants. It really doesn't help living near Detroit. Kinda like reading the first 4 fark comments on any given article. I think TFership now requires dutch ruddering each other's neck beards over a picture of Romney all the while chanting "cool beans" and "faux news" until they both become funny again.

/anyone who has worked in healthcare as it is currently and knows the govt's ability to fark things up should know that this will be hilarious in about 2 years.//$60,000/yr janitor in my hospital? It's more likely than you think, taxpayer.

So... clearly, there's a lot of unrelated stuff that gets rolled into the PPACA / Obamacare discussion, and the discussion of its constitutionality.

Personally, I think when you shave off all the unrelated stuff, the whole health care reform process is going pretty much the way it should. I think that includes the peculiar shadings of the Supreme Court decision on the matter.

Not really. And also productivity is a rather tricky measuring stick when a huge number of people aren't working manufacturing or agricultural jobs. There's no real way to measure productivity for an accountant, computer programmer and others. Hell one could argue certain jobs aren't productive at all. Plus there are also factors like hours worked in a week and other things, where the US does not look good at all.

I know that, i work retail and if I take my divided by 40 hours not so bad but divided by the hours I work UGH.

I read something about the french work 35 hour weeks but are as if not more productive than us as they don't spend hours during the week doing personal things at work as they have enough time to do it at home.

It's more complicated than that, but it is the general idea. I'm from Illinois originally, I've been living in France since 1996. My official work week is 37 hours, I get 1 non-cumulative day off every month of the year except for August, and I finish early on Friday. I also have five weeks vacation, national health care that pays for 70% of costs, a health insurance program from my job, that pays for the other 30% and for stuff like glasses or contacts and full dental. And overtime hours are exonerated from income taxes, which was cool because as a systems engineer(that is my actual job title) I've been making about 3000 to 4000 thousand a year in overtime, because some work has to be done outside of business hours.

how is the health care? I once talked with a man who's wife was from sweden or switzerland (i don't recall) and he said they had socialized medicine which was great most of the time, but that his father-in-law died from a heart problem and that had he been in the U.S health care industry He felt he would still be alive as he would have had more options ...

I doubt that. European countries will not just let someone die especially for health reasons. I'm not doubting that they said this to you; I am doubting this on what I've seen for my on health problems; 3 week s of for sciatica all paid; motorcycle accident 3 weeks; ex-mother in law 8 weeks for farking hemorrhoids, same for my brother in law. At the end of the day, American health care is 17% of gdp France is about 9 the last time I looked. This is something that is good for buisiness

I only pay 40% of my insurance cost. My company picks up the rest. If I chose not to have any insurance at all the so-called 'tax' (which is more properly called a penalty or fine) would be cheaper than what I pay now. Just what I pay... which is 40% remember of the actual cost. The penalty (tax) is about half what I pay.

Further more if I were to get on the state exchange insurance program that too is cheaper than what I pay now and it's a better plan (from what I can tell this early in the process)

Waldo Pepper:I never said not having insurance is a wise choice, I simply said I should have that freedom of choice and not be taxed for not buying a service.

it is not personal responsibility if the government requires you to buy it.

How about this. Anyone can exercise their "freedom of choice" to not have health insurance. In exchange they must have a DNR/T (Do Not Resuscitate/Treat) chip implanted. This way they will not be gambling with other people's money.When an EMT is called out, they will use their smart phone to scan for the DNR/T chip. If one is found, they will pack up and leave them their on the sidewalk.If they are brought to the hospital by friends, family, or a bystander, they will need to post $100k bond before they can be admitted for treatment.

HAHAHAHAHA look at TIKIMAN sh*t on the Heritage Foundation health care plan that was spoken of with approval by Newt Gingrich and Mittens and just yesterday declared constitutional by the Supreme Court!

You obviously have no understanding of the dimensions of the health care crisis in this country, or of the savings the Act will eventually realize. HINT: the taxpayers are already footing the bill, which grows ever larger every year. Oh well.

Hmm, and now just by being alive you have to purchase something or get fined.

In 2009 Obama said it was not a tax, yet his lawywers in the SCOTUS argued it WAS a tax.

Obama just raised taxes on everyone in the united states.

It's disgusting how much our a*shole president lies.

Hilarious. If you don't want to purchase something you don't want like fire departments and schools and police, all you have to do is live without money! Because that's totally a choice.

Waldo Pepper:you are still missing the point. the freedom to take the gamble is my right. you say someone else would be stuck with paying, well if it is my family and they accept the gamble how is this wrong?

It is wrong if you and your family are not gambling with your own stakes.

If you're not a "GUBMIT BAD MMKAY?" libertarian, then yes, it is progress. Only a little, not what everyone wanted, but progress nonetheless. The United States is one step closer to being on parity with other first world nations.

bhcompy:I'm sorry that you have a problem that causes you to be a huge insurance liability, but none of our founding documents claim that life is fair, just that, essentially, the government shouldn't get in the way of you living your life freely, and they weren't before this law was created.

It's simple. Do you think uninsured people with medical emergencies should be ejected from emergency rooms and allowed to die on the sidewalk?

If so, you're a sociopath. Get help.

If not, you agree that something has to be done to tackle the free rider problem. This bill does that. Deal with it, and get over it.

Waldo Pepper:I always thought the USA healthcare was best in the world.

Only if you're rich. Only in the USA is a medical condition the number one cause of bankruptcy.

Waldo Pepper:but don't tax me for not buying into a product or service.

Why all this posturing? You know damn well you're going to end up with some kind of insurance, ether through your employer or through the free provided insurance if you have financial difficulties. (Oh, and by the way, you can get the penalty/tax thing waived if you are above the income cutoff yet are still having cash flow issues).

The only people going to get hit by the tax are those who can, should, but just *won't* carry insurance. I.e. idiots.

Waldo Pepper:what's next if I don't give a certain percent of my income to charity then I will have to pay a tax to help cover the difference.

Because that's toatally the same thing. I'm sorry entering the modern era is such a difficult thing for you.

Waldo Pepper:I agree we need reform but don't tax me for not buying into a product or service.

You already get taxed for not buying a product or service.

If you don't purchase a house with a mortgage, you pay a tax penalty. If you do, you don't pay the penalty. So the tax code punishes people who do not purchase homes and do not purchase capital, typically from a bank.

Man On Pink Corner:bhcompy: I'm sorry that you have a problem that causes you to be a huge insurance liability, but none of our founding documents claim that life is fair, just that, essentially, the government shouldn't get in the way of you living your life freely, and they weren't before this law was created.

It's simple. Do you think uninsured people with medical emergencies should be ejected from emergency rooms and allowed to die on the sidewalk?

If so, you're a sociopath. Get help.

If not, you agree that something has to be done to tackle the free rider problem. This bill does that. Deal with it, and get over it.

How does it deal with it? You get health insurance of a sort, right? A hospital stay is going to cost thousands of dollars out of pocket. Who pays that cost? The people that are too poor to afford even a health insurance premium or the taxpayer?