Through the ages, nations and cultures of spectacular proportion and prominence have risen to prosperity, and fallen to chaos, on very particular and fundamental principles.In some cases, these great and terrible declines have taken centuries to culminate (as was the story of the Roman Empire), and only a few years in others (the Soviet Union comes to mind).In every example of societal destabilization, however, there were many signs of danger long before the final plunge; some unique to each particular culture, and some common to all.One of the most enduring and frightening similarities between crumbling nations is an overwhelming belief amongst the people that they have somehow “advanced” beyond the need for concern.Each self-destructing society presumed itself invincible.Each country thought itself the pinnacle of human potential, only to discover yet again that in abandoning or subverting the principles of freedom, and the bedrock pillars of conscience, reason, and wisdom, they had become merely another footnote in a long marathon of footnotes.

Ultimately, the vast and sordid history of collapse could be summarized simply as a series of breaking points; moments at which opposing ideals and forces hyperextend the prevailing mechanics of a system, changing it entirely.

Some of these events have produced surprising strides of understanding and political progress, as prevailed after the American Revolution.Others led to dark and mindless collectivist nightmares that fog men’s eyes and hearts, as that which occurred after the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia.The difference is one of focus.Imperialist (elitist) ideologies were deemed unacceptable in both revolutions, but the tides of each conflict leaned towards entirely separate values.Individual liberty in the West, and collective safety and sacrifice in the East.In America, the uprising was led by common men and the target was clear.In Russia, the uprising was led by elitists posing as common men, and the target was obscured.In America, much of the public assumed roles as arbiters and political engineers.In communist Russia, much of the public was oblivious to such responsibility, and only subject to engineering.Two revolutions in the name of ending tyranny with two entirely different initial outcomes…

I bring up these opposing paradigms not to spark another endless debate over the merits of communism versus capitalism, but to highlight a growing potential for a new brand of revolution in modern day America, now cutting through the surface, which may very well culminate in one of the two finales described above.More perhaps than any other time memorable, centralist and statist visions are today clashing with individualist and Constitutionalist pleadings for sanity.The air grows heavy and ripe for ignition.More even than any economic indicator, social indicators point in the direction of conflict and widespread malfunction. The question of “if” in terms of citizen dissent and the inevitable lashing response of government is no longer asked.Now, the question of “when” has risen to the surface.

To predict the exact timing of a breaking point is impossible, but there are signals to watch for; social and political attitudes to monitor and examine.After analyzing the shifts of multiple nations and cultures over thousands of years of human record, a pattern does, indeed, emerge.Similar developments in our times should not be taken lightly…

1)The Rise Of Moral Relativism

Inherent conscience is a vital artery to a healthy society.When that artery is cut, entire structures and peoples die.There is no way around this, as history has shown.Cynics, often utilizing a highly limited understanding of the processes of mass psychology and individual psychology, tend to confuse the word “conscience” with the concept of taboo.Taboos are man-made morals, and are commonly applied as a method of social control by oligarchs and collectives, just as many laws are created to appease sometimes dubious bureaucracies.Conscience is NOT man-made, but an inborn process that human beings draw from unconsciously, and which true honor, compassion, and sincerity are derived.Conscience is an intuitive product, not intellectual.

Moral relativism, by comparison, is a kind of emotional inhibitor which allows people to mechanize their thinking, and rationalize any activity no matter how despicable, as long as that activity is rooted in a “logical” framework.Logic, however, is limited…

Interestingly, there are some forms of theoretical mathematics which allow false conclusions to be presented as fact, and this same methodology of fuzzy logic is consistently used by moral relativists to achieve the “appearance” of reason.At bottom, intellectual prowess accomplishes little without the disciplines of experience, emotion, and insight.Cultures which widely abandon the guidelines of conscience always find themselves subject to collapse, whether economic or political.Without the ability to feel empathy for the victims of one’s actions, any disaster becomes possible.

2)The Displacement Of Cultural Subsections

A society that maintains healthy appearances by purposely displacing and marginalizing certain belief systems or political stances is by its very nature self-destructive.For progress to be made, inclusion of ideas is paramount.Ideas must be allowed to stand on their own merit and not be victimized by the biases of an elite minority, or in some instances, an ignorant majority.Strong and meaningful ideas must be given space to thrive while bad ideas must be allowed to fall to the wayside.This happens when open discussion is given fair play.Suppression of discussion, whether by force or by stealth, leads to an inability of the people to form a true identity.Forced consensus ends not in stability, but in madness.

3)Distraction Over Substance

Distracted people are uncaring people.A nation distracted by its own immediate desires over the concerns of the future is completely incapable of acting in its own best interest.Distraction comes in many forms, from vapid entertainment, to disinformation, to war and economic uncertainty.While most people are more than able to produce their own distractions, often governments will lend a helping hand in order to dissuade the masses from participation in the decision making processes.This includes the dilution of educational options and/or the co-option of the educational system altogether.

You will find that in nearly every collapse of modern times, the citizenry found themselves surprised and shell shocked despite numerous and easily identifiable warnings.You will also find that the stunned populace was usually obsessed with any existing method to avoid involvement in the workings of the system in which they lived.They were caught off guard because, in the end, they were more comfortable not knowing the details.Comfort at the price of vigilance ends in devastation.

4)When Law Becomes Tyranny

Law, at least as far as the fundamentals are concerned, is designed to protect citizens as well as authorities from undue actions and accusations.At its best, law shields us from our own follies, which may include the allowed ascension of poor leadership.At its worst, law is no longer used as a tool for protecting the public from error and malice, and is instead used as a tool for enslavement.

When a culture elevates and worships law over the contents of their own consciences, the abuse of law for the sake of control is imminent.Law does not trump heart, yet many past societies have been convinced to follow immoral laws all while mistaking their actions for “civic duty”.When law becomes infallible, fallible government becomes god, and no nation will ever be able to sustain such a delusion of grandeur for very long without reaping catastrophe.

5) Force Over Reason

Force is used only in two instances within a domestic political environment; when a controlling entity seeks to acquire or maintain power after fear and disinformation have failed, and when a rebellious public seeks to undo the wrongs done and reason has gone ignored.A nation run by dishonest men is already a supreme candidate for extreme collapse, but when despots turn to violent policies to silence dissent, you can be sure that conflict is soon to follow.The level of this tension will be readily visible in the militant presence of the government in public buildings, on the roads, and even in the neighborhoods of the citizenry.A standing army upon the soil of a country, regardless of supposed rationale, is a recipe for a breakdown that goes far beyond the more manageable effects of financial distress and into the realm of lasting and vicious war.

6)False Paradigms And Mistaken Enemies

A country near bedlam is usually filled with people seeking not just answers, but someone, anyone, to blame.This need for “justice” can be very misguided, and results in the projections of our own terrors onto innocent bystanders.Collapse is very often preceded by a swelling wave of attacks, usually directed at groups contrary to the majority belief.Political parties become factions.Ideals become battle cries.Fervor for retribution takes over.All the while, the true culprits (who are normally not a part of either side) sit back, relax, and turn the public in on itself.A frantic nation is an easily manipulated nation.Divided and fragile, such systems degrade while the source of the problem remains hidden.

7)Desperation And Loss Of Will

A culture on the verge of sliding into full spectrum disintegration is generally not very chipper, however, when this despair results in the handing over of personal liberty for the sake of so called “security”, an avalanche of regret and wild compensation in the form of moral relativism results.No matter what the state of a nation and its people, the will to move forward and to act for the betterment of the future can and does change everything.The blackest days of dread and ill omen are no match for man’s ability to endure when he holds the truth dear.No obstacle is insurmountable.No enemy unbeatable.But, when that will is lost, so too is everything else.

The concentration and frequency of the above elements can easily reveal the point at which a country is in respect to collapse.America now has many of these diseases at one stage or another, and in certain ways, has surpassed historic examples to form a never-before-seen dynamic for global turmoil.Currently, citizens are turning in greater and greater numbers to activism and protest, but the focus has moved away from the elites (central bankers and globalists) who deserve the largest portion of the public’s ire.We have allowed deflections to go unchecked for too long, and the unwillingness of arbitrarily delineated sides (false Left and false Right) to reconcile at least until the larger threat is removed is setting our culture in motion into the depths of a nightmare we are not ready to handle.Such loss has happened before, and, through courage, understanding, and tenacity, it has also been undone before.The choice is ours.It always has been.

Militant: Dig it, dope peddler. We're out here building a new nation for black people. It's time for you to start payin some dues, nigga! Youngblood Priest: I ain't givin' you shit! I'll tell you what you do, you go get you a gun and all those black folks you keep doin' so much talkin' about get guns, and come back ready to go down, then I'll be right down front killin' whitey. But until you can do that, you go sing your marching songs some place else. Now we're through talkin'.

...

[Black Dynamite walks into the militant group's hideout] Black Dynamite: Excuse me, brothers. Militant #3: [Gets up] The militants turn, startled. This is private. How'd you get in here? Black Dynamite: I walked in. Militant 2: So you one of them sneaky brothers, huh? Or maybe you an undercover pig. Or maybe you just a federal hitman. Black Dynamite: If I was, you cats would already be dead. Now let me speak to the man in charge. Militant #3: Sarcastically, I'm in charge. [Exchanges hi-fives with the other militant] Black Dynamite: If you were in charge, the people might as well surrender to whitey right now, because your survival skills ain't worth a damn. Saheed: Black Dynamite. [Walks into the room] Saheed: It's been a long time, my brother. Black Dynamite: [Exchanging hi-fives with Saheed] What it is, Saheed? Militant 2: You know this Uncle Tom? Black Dynamite: Listen sucka, I'm blacker than the ace of spades and more militant than you and your whole damn army put together. While you out there, chanting at rallies and brow-beating politicians, I'm taking out any money-fronting sucka on a humble that gets in my way. So I tell you what, when your so called revolution starts, you call me, and I'll be right down front showing you how it's done. But until then, you need to SHUT the FUCK UP when grown folks is talking. Militant 2: I'm sorry. Saheed: Yeah, we heard about what went down at the Hip Pocket. That was righteous. Black Dynamite: That was personal, brother. Saheed: Personal or not, you saved a lot of brothers and sisters. You need our help, [pounds chest with right fist] Saheed: we're here. Black Dynamite: I can dig it. [Black Dynamite pulls the bullet casing from his pocket] Black Dynamite: What can you tell me about this? [Saheed takes the casing, sniffs the inside for gunpowder and licks the outer casing] Saheed: I ain't seen one of these in a while. [Black Dynamite and Saheed walk out of the room] Militant 2: [Whispers] I was gonna fuck him up.

...

Sharon Craig: I think Mr. Mellish is a traitor to this country because his views are different from the views of the President and others of his kind. Differences of opinion should be tolerated, but not when they're too different. Then he becomes a subversive mother.

...

Howard Cosell: This is tremendous, Don, just tremendous. The atmosphere heavy, uncertain, overtones of ugliness. A reminder, in a way, of how it was in March of 1964 at Miami Beach when Clay met Liston for the first time and nobody was certain how it would turn out. The crowd is tense; they've been here since ten this morning. And... and I think I see... the door beginning to open. El Presidente may be coming out. The door opens. It's he... it's El Presidente waving at the crowd. A shot rings out! He turns... he runs back toward the building, trying to get in. This crowd is going wild. He's caught in a crossfire of bullets. And down! It's over! It's all over for El Presidente!

...

Carroll Commission Spokesman: Ladies and gentlemen, you have been invited here today for the official announcement of the inquiry into the death of Senator Charles Carroll. This is an announcement, not a press conference. Therefore, there will be no questions. A complete transcript of the investigation is being prepared for publication on March 1st. At that time, the committee will hold a full-scale press conference. After nearly four months of investigation, followed by nine weeks of hearings, it is the conclusion of this committee that Senator Carroll was assassinated by Thomas Richard Linden. It is our further conclusion that he acted entirely alone, motivated by a sense of patriotism and a psychotic desire for public recognition. The committee wishes to emphasize that there is no evidence of any wider conspiracy; no evidence whatsoever. It's our hope that this will put an end to the kind of irresponsible and exploitive speculation conducted by the press in recent months, as I've said in the complete text of the hearings, which provides the bases for the committee's findings which will be published on March 1st. When you've had a chance to examine the evidence, you'll have every opportunity to ask those questions which remain unanswered, if they are any. That is all. Thank you.

...

Hammond Commission Spokesman: Ladies and gentlemen, you've been invited here today for the official announcement of the inquiry into the death of George Hammond. A complete transcript of the investigation is in preparation. This committee has spent nearly six months of investigation, followed by eleven weeks of hearings. After careful deliberation, it is concluded that George Hammond was assassinated by Joseph Frady. An overwhelming body of evidence has revealed that Frady was obsessed with the Carroll assassination, and in his confused and distorted state of mind seems to have imagined that Hammond was responsible for the senator's death. He was equally convinced that Hammond was somehow plotting to kill him. And it is for those reasons that Frady assassinated him. Although I'm certain that this will do nothing to discourage the conspiracy peddlers: there is no evidence of a conspiracy in the assassination of George Hammond. Those are our findings. The evidence will be available as soon as possible. Thank you. This is an announcement, gentlemen. There will be no questions.

...

Eppis: Do you know why being a revolutionary doesn't work in this country? Being a revolutionary in America is like being a spoil sport at an orgy. All these goodies being passed around and you feel like a shit when you say no.

yeh. pull up a chair. read. the wageslaves just can't wait, with baited breath, for yet another megamind to join the canonade in firing-off his very own secret yet seminal metanalysis, wherein the past,present&future of those many homeless,hopeless'n'ugly rubble are to be treated to just such secret sauce as will finally stick if not exactly fix the trickle-down status of their whole TOEjam. which, of course, genius--

Ultimately . . . could be summarized simply

Read: for as that first peripatetic originally established while strolling-- outside? the lyceum! --for knowledge one thing is needful: Leisure

There won't be a revolution in the US. If you think so your knowlege of history is too short.

The US is actually more free and less corrupt than ever before. Yes, there are ups and downs. But the long term trend is up.

Freedom -- Only 40 short years ago blacks couldn't even get on a bus, use a public bathroom or go to a restaurant without facing violence. Arrest warrants -- what was that? Cop misbehavior on video -- nope. Tolerance for anyone with a religious or sexual difference -- very little.

Danger signs -- We had a great depression with widespread hunger. We had the brink of nuclear war, and mass protests over the draft. There were isolated acts of violence but society held together.

Like little kids who are attached to a malfunctioning toy and continue to play with it or keep it around because they can't let it go.

At an #occupy event yesterday targeting Bank of America, a guy stopped me and asked me what it was all about. I simply explained that those 3,000 people were pissed-off about a variety of things. The target made bad loans, took taxpayer funded bailouts, gave bonuusus to execs and are illegally foreclosing on people's homes. I told him to just read the signs.

He said thanks for explaining it. He seemed to get it.

I think he was confused more because we were black and white, young and old, well dressed and not so well dressed and were facing down hundreds of cops.

I was wrong. However: I'm beginning to think that OWS is just a dress rehearsal, here in the US. I still don't think enough people will head to the streets to do anything. I think OWS will go 1 of 3 ways - in order of likelihood :

Fizzle out - co-option, weather, boredom, etc.

Be Pre-empted - a "war," or something (worked for nascent anti-globalism personified by WTO protests in Seattle)

Turn violent - a "Kent State" like event, or violence on the part of the protesters (engineered, or not)

Eppis: Do you know why being a revolutionary doesn't work in this country? Being a revolutionary in America is like being a spoil sport at an orgy. All these goodies being passed around and you feel like a shit when you say no.

I thought the point of a vomitoriun was to allow the enjoyment of more good food by voluntarily emptying out. At Burger King, the food festers when traffic is slow, and the vomiting (for me anyway, many years ago) is involuntary.

Spastica, do you mean like after Kent State or after North spilled the beans on Reagan I and no one opened their mouth???

It seems to me that all of the above and more are going to be happenig at the same time. It is going to be long and hard and who can say if we U.S. americans have the balls for it or not?

But it does appear that the cat is out of the bag--------and hopefully a big enough cat to get some re-distribution of of income and resources. I´m tired of always hitting the military option---these non-war wars have destroyed our country and put a bunch of morons in charge. I'm sick of it.

And yeah, I think it will be a shitstorm at times, but the people on the street are as tired of the same old same old as this oldman-----and a lot of them are just kids, but they won't be for long.

I meet a lot of really talented, intelligent, and aware youngsters everywhere I go. Outside of the US young people are very respectful to me----there is not much difference in the genarations in the rest of the world. Even so, The US has a lot of bright, hip kids, without as much fear as their parents. This is why I am pretty optimistic about them, also.

Even my four year old grandson knows enough to say, "you just never know, granpa", and I think that is a great place to start from.

Maybe # 2, likely #3. It's far too entertaining to watch on YouTube to go the way of #1, and it's becoming International. Every nations protesters will have to up the anty.....it's that "we're #1" mentality ;-)

I think the OWS thing will morph into a burning platform that gives an alternative voice to express the real and true feelings of the 99%. There is so much to be shared that the corporate media doesn't show us. That is why there are no 'demands'. The media IS the message. We the people have finally found our voice and we are going to use it, Bitchez!

WTF! I keep reading all the post of the coming revolution!! WooooHooooo! I am glad people are finally getting pissed off enough to go out into the streets and start voicing demands for change. But OWS!?!? These are nothing more then a large group of people making socialist/communist demands. All these people where more then happy while the government was strong arming the banks into handing out free money to people that could never pay it back. But now when the lights come on and everyone is told the party is over they all run to the streets and start demanding more free stuff. It is like the drunks at closing time at your local bar when the lights come on and are told to go home, and they refuse and demand to have more beers, and keep the party going.

These people are protesting the banks, great! They are some crooked SOB's. But what about the US capital? The white house? Those mother fuckers sold us out as bad if not worse then the bankers. They keep comparing the OWS to the Tea party and that is bullshit. I am not involved with the Tea party but I am a US citizen, and the one thing that made this country unique from all other forms of government when it was founded was the election process. This allowed for the peaceful change in government direction from right to left or vice versa. Prior to that the only way that would occure would be with a lot of weapons and open trenches filed with dead people. As a country we are no where near a true revolution. We have not had martial law declared (yet), and the president has not suspended the constitution (yet).

These protesters calling for violent change are assholes. Oops I mean socialist assholes. They might want to do some research because the primary reason we are as a country financially broke (including Europe) is due to stupid short sighted government instituted socialist programs that have become a stone around all of our throats and are dragging us down. These people are all busy craping on capitalism while they are blogging on the internet via their laptop computer, all of which would not be possible if the inventors where not driven by capitalism. Name one device that has enriched the lives people (other then the AK47) that was invented, and produced in a communist run country. And no China does not count because they saw the error of their ways and have turned to 'free market reform' but are still a dictatorship by commitee.

If everyone thinks we are in some fucked up shit now, let this country be taken over by communist. You ever wonder why Cubans are so willing to head out onto the Atlantic ocean in a 30 foot wooden peace of shit boat with a hundred people on board? Because to them death is better then living in a communist country. Fuck these retards at OWS, and the union socialist thugs that Obama and his cronies are using to stir up shit. I for one still believe in the electoral process and am willing to exhaust all efforts on peaceful change before it goes to violence. After that, bring it on, and these socialist assholes will be the first on my list.

No, actually most of those people at OWS have been doggedly disciplining themselves to things that they believe matter. It wasn't just a buncha slackers showing up saying let's party and sleep . . . in the park, cool! They weren't copasetic when times were "good" . . . even when the markets were bangin'.

These are the kind of people who stop whaling boats, protest against Burmese despotism, work against blood diamonds, etc. You know the type. They also tend to buy local, which involves co-ops, farmer's markets, bartering, growing together in a real community and supporting one another in real time, both directly and virtually. People who have been bought by this corrupt system don't have time to go down there. And wouldn't if they did.

I'm sorry to see all the confusion about who these kids are. They're real people. Committed and sincere.

Oh yeah, I know the type. I went to school with many of them, and twenty years later they are still doing the same shit, always looking for a free handout, or a get rich quick scheme, never want to actually work for it.

You know how to starve a hippie? Hide his food stamps under his workboots.

"warrior-artists" HAHHAHAHAHHHAHAHHHAHHHAHHA!!! oh god, that is some funny shit. OK look I understand what your saying. These are are young ideological people stuck in a difficult situation. And they have organized somewhat to let the world know they are not happy. But part of the sad truth is they should have spent more time organizing before they started this. For now they have no clear direction, just spraying bullets in all directions and hoping to hit something. Rather then taking some time and picking a clear target. Please don't get me wrong, even though I am from the right hand side of the spectrum I share a lot of anger and frustration with these people. The unchecked greed at the top of the banks and our federal government has left all of us holding a bag of shit. My problem with these OWS guys is that they are so disorganized that they will ultimately hurt their cause as people start to loose interrest as they become more and more unsure what OWS movement stands for. The Arab spring thing worked because they were focused, the majority of people hated the dictators and had had enough, but they had one goal, get rid of the dictator. They didn't get together and present a list of 32 items, and then added to it daily. that just confuses everyone. If they want to save this movement they need to try and identify a single goal that is within reach, like maybe debt forgiveness on homeowners, or students, then stick with it. Make it a single demand, then when/if they get that demand, hold another protest and demand the next thing, you can't do it all at ounce. If they don't do something like that soon they are destined to failure, TPTB are just going to get tired of dealing with them and either ignore them or arrest them.

Well, I won't argue against those criticisms on the basis of how effective popular uprisings have been structured in the past.

Yet our current situation may be too damn corrupt to focus upon a single, or even several, issues of "demand." Government and corporate corruption is both epidemic and systemic at this point. Rule of Law has been obliterated except as perpetrated upon the bottom 70% and everybody knows it.

I could see an effective movement with NO specific demands, just the raw collective conscience assembling worldwide in silent reproach of TPTB. Millions of people occupying all the loci of criminal institutional power demanding, by their presence alone, only one thing: Justice.

I think that's a damn clear message. No words required.

With the popular support the occupy movement is gaining nationwide, it appears to me that TPTB had better get their saboteurs out there in a hurry to provide necessary cover for violent repression. Very soon the populace will be more than amenable to general consumer and worker strikes that will require nothing of the participants except staying home.

That's what I see coming next. The shit is going to hit the fan bigtime.

"These are nothing more then a large group of people making socialist/communist demands.

Nut, you give them WAY too much credit for financial and economic literacy, they could not describe what seperates one from the other or what our own economic history is, they are just out there because they know OBSCENE when they see it. What Wall Street, and lobbyists, and government (aka the top 10%) are doing to the other 90% is as Obscene as anything in modern history, and it will kill the geese that laid the golden eggs - the middle class labor serfs.

That should read "Has killed". Boil, hate to to tell you this but the middle class in the USA is done. Most have lost their homes, their jobs, and soon their 401k's (or what is left of them). Understand me, I am behind anyone that is willing to call out these MF'ers in the FED, and the mega banks for what they are - CROOKS. I am not interrested in standing on a corner in NYC beating a drum chanting union slogans. I want action, does not need to be violent action. But something along the lines of no longer giving those assholes our money, make them hurt where it counts, their wallet. Until I start seeing an organized effort by these people along those lines as far as I am concerned everything we have seen so far with this 'protest' is just eye candy for the MSM.

*Mental head slap* Of course Nut, like I said this morning they are redoing the apartment next door and it is making me crazy, losing concentration. It is so easy even for a person like me trained in finance to forget about the massive debt and leverage on corporate and governmental debt that has to be paid by the middle class. Becuase the poor can't pay all those tens of trillions, and the rich won't pay anything, leaving the middle to pay it all. They still look middle class, they still live like middle class people for the most part, most probably even still think they are middle class. They just forget (or never knew) they are on the hook for all their own personal consumer debt plus a reasonably even share of some 50 trillion and rising fast. 260 million MOL into 50 trillion MOL = just a tad under $200k per "middle class" American in debt they did not understand they owed. Now how middle class are you sucka. Because that works out to about three quarters of a million bucks per household.

That's too bad Drifter. We, collectively, are at a very decisive point in our nation's history and future... and possibly even mankinds itself. To concern ones self with his/her own needs, while necessary to a certain degree of course, exclusively is to turn a blind eye and add to the above conditions.

Let us not be consumed with the interest of self preservation alone, but rather contibute, as we each can, to the growth and enlightenment of our fellow world beings. The above author has contributed a meaningful, intelligent and stimulating piece. I am grateful for his efforts.

I hope I too will find the wisdom and energy to make our burdens a bit more endurable and create an atmosphere which will allow ideas/ideals to surface and be explored.

This whole board is focused on some wierding collective shadenfreude. How can you even say this? When folks here want bankers heads on pikes they know a lot of the "little people" are going to fare much worse.

When the Dalai Lama was asked "What surprises you most about humanity? " He answered,

Man…. Because he sacrifices his health in order to make money. Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health. And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived.

i was out on the range yesterday firing a m92 yugo. with russian ammo. very accurate....with open sights..........i suggest one of the things you can do is get strapped and learn how to use it, break it down and clean it etc

I am guessing you are wrong, or perhaps change is just always in the air. Myself, I see no signs of change--the Republican candidates are all the same statist types except for Ron Paul, who is a living joke and is designed to soak up the energies of the real opposition and render it harmless.

Change energy has been in the "air" for some time, the amplitude is slowly increasing. I would need to be numb, drugged, very sick, or unconscious not to feel it. YMMV

IMHO things have regressed beyond being repaired via the ballot box.

As for Ron Paul being a joke, I'm sure he is sincere. I doubt he can be bought. Whatever disagreements we have, he is a genuine, nice person. One way the system perpetuates itself is by ensuring that "Nice guys finish last"

Ron Paul is a joke in the sense that proposing a nonviolent vegetarian to lead a cannibal tribe would be a joke to most. We are used to the cannibals and he seems weird because he does not spit his opponents and roast them, and he wants to end the tribal war fetish.

Some have said that the desire to lead is a disqualification for leadership. Ron Paul is willing to lead, but does not desire the job. Like Cinncinnatus, he would prefer to be home, yet serves.

I never met one of you guys----you were one of the 60,000 troops that kept my city, the City of the Angels safe from 'the black hordes´threatening whitey? One of the dudes who kept them in Watts destroying their own community because they were so outraged as was the rest of the world that the cops got off free?

Well, I trust that you have changed sides and are with us proles this time. Good to have you aboard because you know first-hand who we are dealing with------change is in the air---that's what we asked for in the last election only to get whats-his-name

If you are nervous, I guess we all should be, but I don't feel nervous at all om

you know, i never heard a figure about how many black americans were killed. you are talking about watts , aren't you? i think there were many killed and they hushed it up.........frankly was it a violation of posse comitatus for them to call out the army on american people ? yet we let it slide........and looked the other way and said , ..........we want our safety ............and so we got it...........another in a long series of examples where the state does things and watches the reaction of the sheep........of course its one thing for them to do this to poor blacks in the hood, or as russell means (who has been recently diagnosed with throat cancer ).... has stated, indians on the rez,..... but its another for them to do it to us..........guess what? we are next.........

I was in downtown LA the morning after and it was empty except for squad cars in groups of three patrolling the streets. The only place open was the Biltmore so I had breakfast there and talked with some Japanese tourists who were surprised that the cops got off----most foreigners I met felt this way; that Rodney King was a victim.

The Koreans had spent the night with weapons on the roofs over their businesses, so they held the perimeter according to a friend who was with them. The police and military just cordoned off Watts, 'damage control' and left black people alone, so they said.

X was there, so he probably knows as much as anyone---We sort of assumed that maybe fifty deaths, but who knows----buildings were burned for insurance proceeds.

All I remember was I was alone in LA that morning and it felt good to be there---it was quiet and peaceful in downtown

The reason I was so hard on X is because I was really pissed off that TPTB had no regard for justice, lives, or anything except their property. They put every cop, highway patrol, sheriff, and marshall they could find on the street and then called in the national guard, and my memory tonight is a figure of 60,000 on the street-------------

It was a long time ago, and I made a lot of enemies with my big mouth asking for justice, but no one cared except the dudes I played ball with at the downtown Y, but then they had been the victims. It's tough being whitey sometimes.

To answer your question, though, of course it was a violation----and a big violation of one man´s 'human rights'. I thought we deserved to have the city burned down.

Excuse me, if I sounded harsh, man---the transition from national guard to volunteer is a great shift. And 'baking bread for anyone' is probably more than I will ever get to doing anything.

Drifter asked about a couple of things about Watts in '92, but I have a very narrow view and strong position on the topic(I'm still angry about it today---some things an oldman doesn't forget). You were there, could you respond to his comment above Sat, 10/15/2011 - 15:25, please?

I would be pleasedto get some old news that was never shown on tv or written in the press thanks om

well, to start with, we didnt get there until it really died down, late on day2, we didnt get ammo till then, by then, wedidnt need it.

most of the shootings were not done by the army or NG. i was in east LA. on garfield ave. monterey park...i was amazed on the amount of full autos in the hands of the civi's. no joke, they had us out gunned...

just givin out supplies, help clean up, helped get a couple of people who had blunt force trauma, my medics did...

people were cool, regardless of race, i made sure the boys showed respect to all...and we got it in return, we didnt confiscate anything...it wasnt my job...just made sure the people had plenty of water, my water buffaloes got awork out...

By the way, I asked a LAPD dude once why the why thegangs did't just blow the choppers out of the air in Watts and ELA because he had told me about all the weapons they have. His answer was interesting; he said that there was sort of an 'understanding' that the cops would have a lighter presence so long as it was only their 'own people' that were victimized.

I don't know how true this is, but in the twentysome years that have passed and that include the Rodney King event, it seems to be a part of the general police plan of LA.

Anyway---glad you and your guys never fired a shot and that no one fired at you om

Mike & The Mechanics - Silent running Silent Running LyricsTake your children and yourself and hide out in the cellar.
By now the fighting will be close at hand.
Don't believe the church and state
and everything they tell you.
Believe in me
I'm with the high command.
Can you hear me
can you hear me running?
Can you heal me running
can you hear me calling you?
Can you heal me
can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running
can you hear me calling you?
There's a gun and amnunition just inside the doorway;
Use it only in emergency.
Better you should pray to God
the father and the spirit.
Will guide you and protect you from up here.
Can you hear me
can you hear me running? . . .
Show allegiance to the flag whatever flag they offer.
Never hint at what you really feel.
Teach the children quietly for some day sons and daughters.
Will rise up and fight where we stood still.
Can you hear me
can you hear me running? . . .
Can you hear me
can you hear me running?
Can you heal me running
can you hear me calling you?
Can you hear me running
can you hear me calling you?
Can you hear me
hear me calling you?
Can you hear me running
hear me running
babe!
Can you hear me running
hear me running!
Calling you
calling you!

Internet bravado. I hardly consider a rifle built in the US out of crappy leftover Yugoslavian parts and firing shitty steel-cased Russian ammo to be "accurate." You're putting your ignorance on display for everyone to see, but you are only fooling yourself. You can shoot your accurate rifle all day and still get killed on the two-way range because firepower is second to tactics and sheer luck. If you aren't choosing the time and place of the fight, you're in deep shit.

Exactly right. I'm not going to spill one drop of my own blood fighting for all the bullshit wannabe toughguys out there. Go fight for your own freedom. This whole conversation is idiotic. People stockpiling weapons simply DO NOT FUCKING GET IT.

For many people, the "stockpiling" of arms and ammo is a means of providing a defense against societal breakdown. When I was a child, I witnessed a man break into our home and hold a knife to my father's throat before he ran off. And the guy was only looking for electronics! Now imagine that the dollar has begun to break down, and as a result something as simple as interstate trucking is interrupted. Most people have perhaps two weeks' max of food in their homes. When that food runs out (and water as well here in SoCal which is mostly desert), you better believe that people will begin searching in desperation for things to survive. The military might be helping to secure trains and major roadways, but nobody will be protecting you, your family, and your home. The thugs of the neighborhood will quickly begin pounding down doors and taking what they want.

Think this is far-fetched? When the 1994 Northridge quake hit, we were without electricity and running water for more than three days. That doesn't sound like much, but for those sheeple who were unprepared for even that short amount of time "off the grid", there was a lot of fear and unrest. And let's not forget the rapes and assaults that went on in the Superdome after Hurricane Katrina. There are many people who will easily and quickly cross the line during a crisis and become the bad guys, intent on taking what's yours and possibly harming or killing you in the process.

Now substitute "gangs" for "those in political/economic power"...

If the hammer ever drops on us all, we all now know that you won't be one of the courageous who will risk spilling "one drop of blood fighting".

If you live around civilized people, you won't have a problem. You've been so misled by the race hustling machinery that attempts to convince you that people like you will behave like blacks do when the strictures of societal order imposed on them are lifted.

Japan has been through many disasters and yet nobody has rampaged like a fucking zombie horde. Blacks do that shit. How many disasters, floods, hurricanes, quakes, fires, have occasioned whites since and before Katrina, yet THAT ONE disaster in that ONE place was all you seem to think occupies the realm of the possible.

People who stockpile guns are idiots. That is not to say that you should not own firearms, but stockpiling them is absurd.

I will agree with you on one point...my adult son went on a personal trip to Japan (urban and rural destinations), and he was astonished at how polite the people were. He said people simply park their bicycles in front of stores and do their shopping without locking them up. Their society is largely based on personal honor.

Here in the good 'ol USA, however, people stampede each other the day after Thanksgiving to be the first in line to grab crap that's been marked down to special pricing. Every year, the media reports on two or three people that are killed due to sheeple storming the front doors as they open and trampling anyone who gets in their way. It's a sad fact of life.

And that's just over some stupid Walmart junk. Imagine if the poop hits the fan (even if only for a short time period like three months or so) and the entire nation is thrown for a loop. Within only a week we'll have people running out of food and looting stores. A couple more weeks and the "less-scrupled" among us will begin visiting their neighbors to take what isn't theirs. There's NO WAY the cops will be able to protect everyone. No way.

I also don't believe in stockpiling more firearms than you'd ever realistically use yourself, but one person might believe in owning only a single gun, while another might want three (for different scenarios). Even they both might see someone with a safe full of guns as a "stockpiler", so it all depends upon your point of view.

Interesting, but personally I consider lead the "other" precious metal and just another part of my portfolio. You may counter with I cannot eat lead, can't eat gold either, but then again I'm prepared enough to never have to.

Well therein lies the problem. I'm thinking this is why Europe was disarmed ages ago. The top is supposed to fear the bottom, maybe this paradigm of the french revolution is kind of outdated? Because all you need now is one or two tanks to roll up on the bastille and riposte all the angry cake eaters. Toss in a predator or two and stick a fork in it.

It's not the guns that are a deterrent, it's got to be an idea that makes the whole thing congeal.

It's elite social isolation and power consolidation through incorporation.

Your [old] government now exists by consent of incorporated rich only (hands of few that pay). These same few who pay determine the governed entirely. Gone is the individual's worth In lieu of a credit score or net worth.

That is the change, and it is consuming every meal you +3 generations will ever hunger for well in advance.

Tyrants Inc. win, you starve -- mission accomplished.

Hope and change? What a cheap joke from fraud streets bonus lap dog.

The only way to the fraud dogs and incorporated money masters undermining your government is fear. How that fear is created will be judged by history.

What happens when all the Iphones go dark? What happens when the street lights go dark? Radical changing? I don't think we're there yet. We're too busted up about Scalett Johansen and Steve Jobs. Give it a few years.

and i dont see you as anything other than a fellow american...i dont label anyone...

p.s. that wasnt a joke, at a general assembly yesterday, there was a sign that said 'turn off your t,v, and got to these alt. web sites' and yes ZH and WB7 were there.. yeah, went to a G.A. i had to go to one and find out what these guys were all about...no, not going back, either..

Right - the end of civilization as we know it, with major undercurrents neatly and eloquently described in one tidy package. What a waste of an article.

Your idea of what is important right now - America's ability to project power - is what's redundant. We know all about that, we've been living with it. Radical and dramatic change is something new to most people.

All revolutions happen after a financial disaster. We are definitely, if not there, very close to it. At that point the anger builds up to the point where it only takes one last straw for the desperate to unite behind someone, anyone. He doesn't even have to propose a convincing solution to their problems, sometimes just the desire to totally dismantle the existing system is sufficient for a revolution to begin. The idea that a system can be manipulated for ever be it financially or politically is held only by people who are frankly totally uneducated in social matters. And as always, the longer it takes, the more violent the correction.

The American colonies were, though with large inequality, very prosperous at the time of the revolution. I am not saying this just to be argumentative, but sometime I think ZH posters in general tend to be a tad too liberal with platitudes. Not that I have not also indulged occasionally, but in this instance I think the statement was just not right. Financial disaster is often one of the triggers of revolution because hunger and imminent threats to security can come with financial disasters so they force people to act when they otherwise would not, but there have been too many financial disasters that did not include revolutions, and too many revolutions that were started prior to any financial collapse for any blanket statement linking them to be made. Though it is true some revolutions were triggered by a collapse such as in France in the 18th century there were many other triggers and financial collapse simply sent the population over the edge. And revolution in a prosperous place can lead to collapse as people leave to fight and ignore the economy, or win a revolution and impose a non functioning economic model, so that collapse is often the result of revolution rather than the cause of one. For every rebellion that was the direct result of financial collapse I can name one that was not.

You're right, but we're talking about here and now. If we have a collapse - a sudden dramatic loss of confidence and function - it won't be contained if the money or food stops flowing. This last year has seen a massive increase in racial crime. That's where it will break first if something in the economy bleeds through to the street. The fact that these attacks are happening now, in a time of relative order, tells me that the S will really hit the fan when these same people think they can get away with anything, and those close to joining in now will do so then. Mix in some hunger and righteous indignation, and a majority white population holding most of the wealth, food and guns.

There was relatively little violence after Katrina, but authorities still went door to door in peaceful high and dry areas, confiscating guns. If there's an outbreak of racial violence and the 'authorities' try that, they've going to find citizens shooting back. It's either that or wait in fear for the inevitable home invasion. There can be no legitimate pretext for disarming someone protecting their own property during a time of civil unrest. The worse things are on the outside, the -more- important it is that there be islands of sanity and resistance to the chaos. If they start taking the guns, that will be the match the strikes the powder and gets people to march on their local authorities with guns, demanding to know if they are with us, or with the obviously evil central power. Power in the context of widespread civil unrest starts with local authority, and that means the current authorities join with the people to actually defend the community, or they sit in their own jails.

It was precisely the decision to disarm the colonists that sparked the revolution.The attempt at seizing the powder at Concord followed by a similar action at Williamsburg lit the fuse of rebellion.The reason it went down with little resistance in New Orleans was because it was an isolated affair.Everyone, even the victims understood the catastrophe was an isolated event with a limited duration.Most people understand that the local police may do something wrong and illegal.The best coping mechanism under those circumstances is to submit and pursue your rights in court.

Any attempt on the part of the government to disarm the population will not be seen as isolated nor temporary.It will be seen as a shredding of the Constitution and the blood shed in the process will have the same result as the blood shed at Lexington.

The shots fired that day at Lexington was revolution and not one of the pressures that led up to revolution. Prior to that there was the Tea Act, The Sugar Act, The Intolerables Act, The Stamp act, The Quartering Act, The Boston Tea Party and the Boston Massacre, The Quebec Act, The Alien and The Sedition Acts, and The Townshend Act. The British did not go to Concord to take powder as you say, they went on orders to investigate rumors that colonists were stockpiling weapons, if powder stores were found in excess of what was needed for hunting and self defense it was to be taken, but some historians think the order was as much to get free powder as to disarm colonists. It was along the way to Concord that Americans stood up to the Brits, though the order was given to disband before the first shot was fired. Unfortunately the British did try to take their weapons and in the confusion someone fired anyway and Captain Parker was killed, starting the Revolution. The majority of Colonists till that point were loyal in spite of mistreatment by parliament and the crown, just as the OWS protesters are now.

The right wing in this country has been harping on for 30 years about how the boogyman government wants to take away all our guns. How people can whip themselves into a frenzy of paranoia over alleged violations of the second amendment is beyond me and actualy is a great argument for not letting nutters run around with guns. I have never been made to give up a gun, never been ask to give one up, as to types of weapons we can own, there is no constitutional right to own an atom bomb is there? It could never be justified on the grounds that such firepower is FAR in excess of any needed for self defense or sportsman activities. Same goes for .50 calibers that can drop a man from more than a mile away, or machine guns that can drop a whole crowd of people in a matter of a few seconds. Of course I live in Oregon which has relatively lax laws about guns outside of Portland.

Sorry, I did not intend to include those, it was an error. I am suffering from remodeling in the next apartment and am about to go temporarily mad with all the pounding and banging. You did find the references to the others OK though I hope, I should have posted links like I usually do. Thanks for actually reading the post and thinking about it guy.

The left always comes up with the same old tired arguments that to argue for the right of self defense is to argue for the individual ownership of nuclear weapons. This is a bogus straw man.First off inasmuch as corporations are deemed to be individuals here in these United States, individuals in the form of defense contractors and utility companies already own nuclear weapons.I assure you the world’s richest have nukes under their control inasmuch as they control governments.If somebody like Bill Gates wanted one, he would simply buy one.Come up with enough zeros and there is bound to be someone in the nuclear arms business that can be bought.

The left seems to have some extreme paranoia about some guy with a machine gun or an antitank rifle.It keeps them up at night.Your logic is clouded by your phobia of guns.It would have been far better if Tim McVeigh had pulled up in front of the Oklahoma Federal Building with a fifty caliber machine gun rather than a truck load of fertilizer.Swat teams would have wiped him out in less than an hour.Long before then, he would have run out of ammunition.A fully automatic AK 47 can only fire a three second burst before the magazine is empty.The average person would be hard pressed to carry enough ammunition to fire the gun on full auto for one minute.After one magazine the gun is smoking.The barrel is so hot that if you touch it you will receive third degree burns. Get out to the range and actually shoot one.Hollywood fantasy is rapidly dispelled by reality.

The purpose of the Second Amendment is to provide the people of the United States the means to resist their government should it run amuck.

Don’t take my word for it.Take the word of a Constitutional Scholar who happens to be a card carrying member of the ACLU.

“The republican theory is predicated on the stark contrast between mere democracy, where people are motivated by selfish personal interest, and a republic, where civic virtue, both in common citizen and leadership, tames selfishness on behalf of the common good. In any event, it is hard for me to see how one can argue that circumstances have so changed us as to make mass disarmament constitutionally unproblematic. [94]

Indeed, only in recent months have we seen the brutal suppression of the Chinese student demonstrations in Tiananmen Square. It should not surprise us that some NRA sympathizers have presented that situation as an abject lesson to those who unthinkingly support the prohibition of private gun ownership. "[I]f all Chinese citizens kept arms, their rulers would hardly have dared to massacre the demonstrators... The private keeping of hand-held personal firearms is within the constitutional design for a counter to government run amok... As the Tianamen Square tragedy showed so graphically, AK 47's fall into that category of weapons, and that is why they are protected by the Second Amendment." [95] It is simply silly to respond that small arms are irrelevant against nuclear armed states; Witness contemporary Northern Ireland and the territories occupied by Israel, where the sophisticated weaponry of Great Britain and Israel have proved almost totally beside the point. The fact that these may not be pleasant examples does not affect the principal point, that a state facing a totally disarmed population is in a far better position, for good or ill, to suppress popular demonstrations and uprisings than one that must calculate the possibilities of its soldiers and officials being injured or killed. [96]”

There is no doubt that the ability to protect oneself from the possibility of a future "government run amok" was one of the many reasons the founders went out of their way to write in a specific second amendment including the right to bear arms as a part of an orderly AND WELL REGULATED militia. Of course they just had their necks saved by the widespread ownership of arms that were normally used to provide food and fend of hostile natives, they lived in a rural agrarian society where such arms were absolutely necessary for survival.

I do not object to gun ownership at all, I am a pretty good shot and like shooting, it is the cranky crackpots that see BATF and FBI agents under their beds about to take away their guns that cause ALL of the problems in this matter.

The same constitution you, we both, hold to be the supreme law of the land and which states our right to keep and bear arms also gives the government the right to enforce and limit that to a context within a militia. It also gives the US supreme court the right to interpret the meaning of the words in the constitution and pass judgment on the constitutionality of laws government makes. In the event you allow paranoia to supersede your own judgment to the point where you disagree with the laws and the courts and refuse to comply where your guns or anything else are concerned then they also have the right and the duty to confiscate, imprison, if need be to kill when threatened with deadly force.

Individuals do not have either the ability or the right to determine when the government has "run amok." The founders knew this, it had to be a collective decision by the people which reached a critical mass that the government was no longer viable. When we collectively decide government is to be dealt with by force because it cannot be dealt with any other way then we would need those arms (in their world, I doubt we could beat the government at this point with force of arms, though nobody thought the colonists could back then either so you never know).

The comments I made above were to point out that it was not the British intent to seize arms at Concord that caused the revolution, it was decades of royal and parliamentary abuse that built up that consensus that the government was out of control and could not be dealt with any other way. And even then I doubt it would have happened had they just given in to the the demand for representation. It was not so much the taxes and other acts that rankled as the fact that it was being done to them while they were denied a voice in the process.

In short, guns OK, paranoid gun owners that see government as evil and out to get them, not OK.

EDIT: please note I did not red arrow you because differences of opinion are not only permitted but encouraged. Giving a red arrow just because people think differently from you is an abuse of the system. I might not agree with everything you say, but I respect you enough to debate it. There are a few around here that just go down the page and red arrow everyone they generally do not like without ever reading anything we say. They are the ones that are our collective enemies. They corrupt this nation to the point of being ungovernable and they will be the ones responsible when it does all fall apart.

It seems we are pretty much on the same page in that we agree there is an individual right to self defense.We may differ on the size or kind of weaponry that people own.

Before you ban fifty caliber rifles and machine guns, I wouldsuggest that you visit Gettysburg during the Fourth of July weekend.You will get to see the largest private collection of field artillery in the world.Then come on down to Florida and visit the Sun and Fun Fly In and you get to see privately owned and operated fighter aircraft and heavy bombers.As I recall, Tom Clancy is running around in his back forty with a fully operational Sherman tank.All of these weapons are in private hands and life goes on unabated.The people who own these things have no ambition to commit suicide.They have no desire to take on the state.Something seismic would be required for that attitude to change.

It would require a failed state to trigger an armed resistance. We can say that a government that fails to deliver on its promises is a failed state, but that is hyperbole.

Looking through history it seems that either war or some kind of climatic catastrophe triggers a failed state.Turkey was a failed state for the Armenians.Stalinist Russia was a failed state for the Kulaks. World War II Germany was a failed state for the Jews.The list goes on and on.In weighing the mass murder perpetrated by individuals against the genocides perpetrated by organized states, the threat posed by individuals is miniscule.

It is difficult for an individual to fathom that his state has failed until he finds himself on his knees in front of a ditch with a gun to the back of his head.Unfortunately this happened all too often in the twentieth century.To think that we are immune to this kind of thing in the United States is to ignore our own history.

For further reading on the subject, I would recommend that you read Becoming Evil by James Waller.

As a gay man in America I need no lectures on being a hated minority in my own land, nor how easily people can allow those they do not like to die while they just look the other way, as some 40 of my friends did in the 80's when Raygun did not even utter the word AIDS till his last year in office. I will check out that book, the reviews look interesting.

"Finally, while President Reagan's critics are free to argue that he should have done more about AIDS, and perhaps he should have, the fact that total federal HIV/AIDS expenditures grew from $0 to $5.727 billion on his watch belies the notion that he "did nothing" about this vicious disease."

"from 1984 onward - and bear in mind that the AIDS virus was not identified until 1982 - every Reagan budget contained a large sum of money specifically earmarked for AIDS,"

1% of the population have gone 2 far. Now 99% starts to behave like in early Russia when they killed 1% in revolution and have nationalized there wealth, say bye to capitalisam, own destruction have been initiated from the 1% of the population because of there greed. No matter how much money they trow to masses now is not any more for money but for fun to clean them out.

There are 90 guns per 100 Americans in the US. Just wait till all the rednecks and gangs join the party, as they surely will in time. Oh yea, don't forget all the disgruntled ex-military who harbor anxieties against their former employer. All this is going to take to really set this thing off, unfortunately, will be an innocent civilian casualty at the hands of a govt force. I could see this happening very shortly here.

Maybe so, but do not ASSUME these studs will not take their OATHS seriously,they do not work for the Government, they serve the Oaths they took.(obeying a corrupt POTUS, does not apply,and damn sure not first),and it's not the #1 priority of the Oath.

“American soldiers in battle don’t fight for what some president says on TV, they don’t fight for mom, apple pie, the American flag --- they fight for one another" ~Lt. Colonel Harold G. “Hal” Moore, Jr.

@ Pretorian and the 10 viewers that voted green have an extremely incorrect interpretation of the so-called Russian revolution. Read the book, "None Dare Call It Conspiracy" or search the internet for the facts. A tidbit; Jacob Schiff spent a repotedly $20,000,000 financing Trotsky and his goons. Schiff, Rothschild, Rockefeller, Harriam et, al. laughed all the way to the bank when they stole the biggest country in the world for pennies on the dollar.