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Re: Surprise! U.S. economy improving better than anyone expe

Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:03 am

Again the crucial mistake of treating this as just another economic downturn. There is no way the financial crisis of the early 1980s, despite the fact that unemployment at one point reached at a staggering 13 percent in that downturn (under Saint Ronald), compares to this. This was a complete disruption of the supply of capital. Further, Obama was not gifted with the benefit that Reagan had with interest rates. A very common way of dealing with receptions is for the federal reserve, an autonomous body not run by the administration, to cut short term rates. As short term rates were basically at zero when Obama took office and remain there, that option was closed in terms of spurring the economy. Given the depth of the crisis, the potential for serious economic calamity- far, far, far beyond what we've seen these past few years- Obama's record is fairly strong. Where he's failed is not spending enough on infrastructure but I know you guys hate that because it's sensible.

The idea of gas and oil autonomy for the US is out of touch with any sort of reality. The companies that own and manipulate these resources are internationally based and set the price on an international basis. Even if the US were to tap every available resource in the nation, there is no guarantee that gas would stay here and not go to the highest bidder in another country unless of course you would nationalize the gas and oil companies which I know you don't want to do. It's an international market and a highly volatile one.

When economists calculate inflation, they purposely leave out food and energy costs because those prices are so subject to fluctuation. Any kind of disruption in the supply line- droughts, fires, coups, insect invasions, you name it- can cause those prices to temporarily sky rocket. However, they usually come back down to Earth just as fast as they went up. So really the price of gas has little place in an assessment of Obama's performance.

I guess what you want is the energy industry itself writing the regulations as they did under Bush. Because that worked out so well.

Last edited by likethebike on Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:04 am, edited 2 times in total.

Re: Surprise! U.S. economy improving better than anyone expe

Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:18 am

likethebile wrote:

The Constitution says nothing about capitalism.

You didn't read my post above.

Capitalism by the way is not a religion it's an economic footprint based upon the general idea that allowing people to cater to their self-interests is the most efficient engine for sustained economic growth.

Allowing free people to make their own way is what America is all about - you call it self-interest - I call it FREEDOM! It has what has made America great and it is what brings people to America from all over the world.

Capitalism and the free market system (which is the system in America) IS what creates wealth for everyone who wishes to participate in it. It IS what has made America the greatest and most wealthy and generous nation on earth!

Many would rightfully argue that the sort of pure capitalism that the Randians keep crying about actually came to abject failure in the Great Depression. And it was Keynesian economics that led the way out.

False. What got America out of the Great Depression was not Keynesian (The New Deal), it made it worse. What got America out of the depression was WWII.

The Constitution, by the way, gives the federal government the authority to regulate interstate commerce which in today's world is almost all commerce. Plus, it gives the government the power of taxation and there is no provision limiting what that money is spent upon.

Yes there is. The Federal government does NOT have unlimited power. The powers of the government are limited by the Constitution. Obama himself said that the Constitution tells us what the government can't do but not what it CAN do.

Not bothering with evidence, the Republicans, of course, would like to bring the same failed strategies to the US.

You're kidding, right? It's not the Republicans but the Democrats who want to go down the European road of bigger and bigger government - more and more spending and entitlements. The Republicans are trying to reverse this.

In the US alone, something like $2.9 trillion in wealth vanished in two days in the fall of 2008. It went poof out of the air, it was gone.

Well, not exactly. There was a huge loss of wealth but there wasn't a complete collapse because of the bailout - which both then Senator Obama and McCain voted for in the fall of 2008, to prevent a collapse.

That's about a quarter of the debt gone in two days,

The debt? Do you mean the national debt? It didn't go anywhere.

That's the honest basis on which to judge this recovery.

You're not being totally honest with yourself if you believe the stuff you post.

RKS

Re: Surprise! U.S. economy improving better than anyone expe

Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:42 am

Paul Sweeny wrote:

Let's just all agree with RKS. He obviously thinks he's right 100% of the time. All republicans do. Democrats are bad, and wrong 100% of the time. Long live RKS and the GOP!

It's about time, Paul!

I never said you or anyone had to agree with me 100% of the time. But you guys on the left ignore the facts even when they are staring you right in the face.

You guys throw out a bunch of 'stuff' and I refute it with facts and you don't like it.

Oh well - like the old saying goes - "you can lead a horse to water. but you can't make him drink".

Keep drinking the Obama kool-aid.

Thank you for your incredibly long-winded, out of context argument. Are you proud of yourself? That was alot of typing for a statement that has little or nothing to do with reality.

That's all you got I guess.

It's very apparent to everyone who is reading these posts that those on the left - intheghetto - likethebike and others do not like or approve of and want nothing to do with the U.S. Constitution or the founding principles put forth by the Founding Fathers.

You are just like Obama himself - You hate the way America was founded and what she stands for. The principles of small - limited government as enumerated in the U.S. Constitution, Freedom, free markets and capitalism, and power to the people (not the government) as described in our founding documents.

Keep voting for your big government, socialist democrats and those who want to "change America as we know it" (Barack Obama - his words - not mine).

If you really want socialist eutopia, why not move to Europe?

Again, the American people have seen what Obama is really about and they don't like it. They want NO MORE of it. The American people showed their dis-pleasure for Obama, the democrats, and their policies in November 2010 much to the surprise of everyone on the left and it will happen again on November 6, 2012.

So 3 weeks from tomorrow we will see what happens.

Until then, you guys can continue the discussion with yourselves.

RKS

Re: Surprise! U.S. economy improving better than anyone expe

Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:42 am

RKSNASHVILLE wrote:Paul Sweeny wrote:

Let's just all agree with RKS. He obviously thinks he's right 100% of the time. All republicans do. Democrats are bad, and wrong 100% of the time. Long live RKS and the GOP!

It's about time, Paul!

I never said you or anyone had to agree with me 100% of the time. But you guys on the left ignore the facts even when they are staring you right in the face.

You guys throw out a bunch of 'stuff' and I refute it with facts and you don't like it.

Oh well - like the old saying goes - "you can lead a horse to water. but you can't make him drink".

Keep drinking the Obama kool-aid.

Thank you for your incredibly long-winded, out of context argument. Are you proud of yourself? That was alot of typing for a statement that has little or nothing to do with reality.

That's all you got I guess.

It's very apparent to everyone who is reading these posts that those on the left - intheghetto - likethebike and others do not like or approve of and want nothing to do with the U.S. Constitution or the founding principles put forth by the Founding Fathers.

You are just like Obama himself - You hate the way America was founded and what she stands for. The principles of small - limited government as enumerated in the U.S. Constitution, Freedom, free markets and capitalism, and power to the people (not the government) as described in our founding documents.

Keep voting for your big government, socialist democrats and those who want to "change America as we know it" (Barack Obama - his words - not mine).

If you really want socialist eutopia, why not move to Europe?

Again, the American people have seen what Obama is really about and they don't like it. They want NO MORE of it. The American people showed their dis-pleasure for Obama, the democrats, and their policies in November 2010 much to the surprise of everyone on the left and it will happen again on November 6, 2012.

So 3 weeks from tomorrow we will see what happens.

Until then, you guys can continue the discussion with yourselves.

RKS

No what we don't agree with is your interpretation of the Founding Documents. Being that the nation has fought for 200 years over those documents what gives you absolute insight????

Again nothing in constitution about free markets or capitalism. If capitalism and freedom are interchangeable, what's happening in China?

Your "facts" are selectively chosen and lack context. Again, the basic fact is we were losing jobs at a record clip and now we are adding jobs.

The facts are that the US did not enter depression and Osama Bin Laden the primary foreign enemy is now dead. Say "Thank you President Obama."

Surprise! U.S. economy improving better than anyone expected

Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:58 am

RKSNASHVILLE wrote:

If you really want socialist eutopia, why not move to Europe?

Or Canada. We might even take you RKS. Alberta is about your speed

Re: Surprise! U.S. economy improving better than anyone expe

Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:33 am

How long will President Obama take the blame for George Bush's fu*k ups?

Surprise! U.S. economy improving better than anyone expected

Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:02 am

promiseland wrote:How long will President Obama take the blame for George Bush's fu*k ups?

As far as RKS and Fox "news" are concerned...forever. By the way, I've watched Fox "news" to see what all the fuss is about. It's terrible. And crazy, but I digress.

Re: Surprise! U.S. economy improving better than anyone expe

Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:10 am

paulsweeney wrote:

promiseland wrote:How long will President Obama take the blame for George Bush's fu*k ups?

As far as RKS and Fox "news" are concerned...forever. By the way, I've watched Fox "news" to see what all the fuss is about. It's terrible. And crazy, but I digress.

Yes and it's really pathetic that people are actually stupid enough to put another George Bush-Romney back in there. When do people learn? Never I guess.Like I said : "A Working Man Voting Republican Is Like A Chicken Voting For Colonel Sanders". Period

Re: Surprise! U.S. economy improving better than anyone expe

Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:44 am

promiseland wrote:How long will President Obama take the blame for George Bush's fu*k ups?

Hopefully just a few more weeks.

I'm glad President Obama weighed in on the Mariah-Minaj dispute.

And speaking of his ladies, I see that Mrs. Clinton is taking the blame for the attack on the US Consulate in Benghazi. Wonder what's been promised for such an action? Interesting times indeed.

Re: Surprise! U.S. economy improving better than anyone expe

Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:57 am

promiseland wrote:How long will President Obama take the blame for George Bush's fu*k ups?

Good question, with tomorrow's debate at hand. (It's almost "tomorrow" right now, and is at Hofstra, where the debate will be. One of my old stamping grounds.)

I hope he doesn't take it, tomorrow night. He acted so submissive last time, intimidated . . . or something I can't understand, because the next morning he was back campaigning, and "himself" again.

He has to face that man, and call him out. Like Biden did, but in his own way. Actually DEBATE! I just can't forget Jon Stewart, who will be on shortly (I watch the second run every night): "Look up, dude!"

rjm

Re: Surprise! U.S. economy improving better than anyone expe

Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:01 pm

RKSNASHVILLE wrote:Oh well - like the old saying goes - "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink". Keep drinking the Obama kool-aid.

Yeah, RKS, it reminds me of the liberals' theme song that each and every one of them sing to their lord and saviour, Obama, before going nighty-night... "If I'm A Fool"...

If I'm a fool for loving youthen that's just what I want to beThey're saying I am just your clownand any fool could seeThat you're just having funand you're not in love with meThe things they're saying may be true,but there's something they can't seeIf I'm a fool for loving youthen that's just what I want to be

If I'm a dreamer, let me dreamIf I'm your clown I'll steal the showIf things are not the way they seemplease don't ever let me knowIf I am blind it's becauseI just don't want to seeIf I'm a fool for loving youthen that's just what I want to be.

In Obama's name I sing, Amen.

Re: Surprise! U.S. economy improving better than anyone expe

Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:15 pm

intheghetto wrote:Another brilliant thought...You should toss out more of your funny remarks, that's all they're good for.

<--- liberals

Re: Surprise! U.S. economy improving better than anyone expe

Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:03 am

intheghetto wrote:

Blue River wrote:

intheghetto wrote:Another brilliant thought...You should toss out more of your funny remarks, that's all they're good for.

<--- liberals

Hey look at that! When there's nothing left to say break out the cartoons.

That's exactly right... there's nothing left to say to you.Now get back to smoking your weed and singing your Obama theme song. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for everyone else, let's get back to reality...

This election is about one thing: Barack Obama's record. Or should I say, his disastrous record — one that is leading our country to economic ruin.

This election is about one thing: Barack Obama's record. Or should I say, his disastrous record — one that is leading our country to economic ruin.

—23 Million Unemployed or Underemployed

—47 Million on Food Stamps

—5.5 Million Homes in Crisis/Foreclosure

—$4500 Drop in Household Income

—$5.5 Trillion of New Debt

—$716 Billion in Medicare Cuts

—$2.6 Trillion for Obamacare

—$1.9 Trillion in New Taxes in Obama’s Budget

—100% Increase in Gas Prices

Re: Surprise! U.S. economy improving better than anyone expe

Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:53 am

RKSNASHVILLE wrote:likethebile wrote:

The Constitution says nothing about capitalism.

You didn't read my post above.

Capitalism by the way is not a religion it's an economic footprint based upon the general idea that allowing people to cater to their self-interests is the most efficient engine for sustained economic growth.

Allowing free people to make their own way is what America is all about - you call it self-interest - I call it FREEDOM! It has what has made America great and it is what brings people to America from all over the world.

Capitalism and the free market system (which is the system in America) IS what creates wealth for everyone who wishes to participate in it. It IS what has made America the greatest and most wealthy and generous nation on earth!

Many would rightfully argue that the sort of pure capitalism that the Randians keep crying about actually came to abject failure in the Great Depression. And it was Keynesian economics that led the way out.

False. What got America out of the Great Depression was not Keynesian (The New Deal), it made it worse. What got America out of the depression was WWII.

The Constitution, by the way, gives the federal government the authority to regulate interstate commerce which in today's world is almost all commerce. Plus, it gives the government the power of taxation and there is no provision limiting what that money is spent upon.

Yes there is. The Federal government does NOT have unlimited power. The powers of the government are limited by the Constitution. Obama himself said that the Constitution tells us what the government can't do but not what it CAN do.

Not bothering with evidence, the Republicans, of course, would like to bring the same failed strategies to the US.

You're kidding, right? It's not the Republicans but the Democrats who want to go down the European road of bigger and bigger government - more and more spending and entitlements. The Republicans are trying to reverse this.

In the US alone, something like $2.9 trillion in wealth vanished in two days in the fall of 2008. It went poof out of the air, it was gone.

Well, not exactly. There was a huge loss of wealth but there wasn't a complete collapse because of the bailout - which both then Senator Obama and McCain voted for in the fall of 2008, to prevent a collapse.

That's about a quarter of the debt gone in two days,

The debt? Do you mean the national debt? It didn't go anywhere.

That's the honest basis on which to judge this recovery.

You're not being totally honest with yourself if you believe the stuff you post.

RKS

I'm sorry missed this the last time. I got it confused with the lower posts. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference when you scroll the page.

Anyway what you're saying about capitalism is religion RKS. It's not the key to wealth and treasure and freedom. It's a modest road map for a successful economic system.

To say that World War II ended the Depression only verifies Keynes. As Paul Krugman has pointed endlessly but what was World War II but a huge public works program? And it's worth noting that economists who opposed Keynes at the time said the Depression would resume when the War ended. No such thing happened. Keynes predicted the built up demand would result in a boom period and the thoughtful use of his suggestions helped spur the Western world to the greatest expansion of wealth (not only in how much was created but who had it) in history. No prognosticator was right so often and it's why the Western world followed Keynes road map for most of the '20th century to fabulous success. No one, no one, no one in the mainstream ever questioned it until Reagan and Thatcher got in office and started dismantling the Keynesian infrastructure. And no one who relies on evidence instead of religion questions it now after 30 years of disastrous trickle down economics which have decimated the American middle class.

Your comments about the crisis, demonstrate your lack of understanding of what happened. Wealth disappeared from the system due to fraud and irresponsible lending and trading done by unregulated banks and insurance companies. The very liquidity of the system was threatened. And yes the bailout, however poorly designed, saved that liquidity. However, it did not mitigate the impacts. Instead of lending the bailout money, the banks were sitting on it. People themselves in a system that had been fundamentally threatened were saving money. There was no money out there. This was the exact formula that created the Great Depression. No businesses started and business closed because there was no demand. The President and congress took affirmative action to ensure there was some demand. All the bailout did was save the liquidity to ensure investments were safe, to ensure that the monetary system still meant something. It did nothing to ease economic contraction.

This is what created the crisis, not European style debt, entitlements and social programs. The European countries who got in trouble like Greece were those that used American sponsored tricks (Merrill Lynch) to hide their debt, and failed to raise enough revenue to cover the interest on their debts. Their ability to pay was in question. This has never been the case in the US and it's still not the case.

My comment about the amount of the money was that the money that vanished, poof it was gone, was equal to about a quarter or a fifth of the total debt. Estimates range as high as 40 percent of the world's wealth was lost in the crisis.

This was not an economic downturn. This was a complete collapse of the system.