Anima_ wrote:Discussed it with Jack.
We'll be going with a resetting magazine approach.
So the ammunition type is specific to the magazine and the magazine is refilled after a fight.
Weapons retain their individual capacities. They are simply filled from the magazine at the start of a fight and with a reload action.

It's possible to run out of ammunition inside a fight now, though it's now impossible to run out of it outside of fights.

Cool. I think that ends up providing a bit more design space, as well as semi-common rewards that would work well as loot from optional encounters/quests; until you're full up on them, the magazines should always be pretty valuable without hugely increasing the overall party's strength.

That does beg the question, though - what happens if you run out ammo? Or will it only cover special ammo? Special ammo only seems safer, or perhaps an extra-long action to dig ammo out of your backpack instead of somewhere convenient? The main issue I would see regarding covering regular ammo is that the opportunity cost of bringing items becomes pretty high if regular ammo took item slots too (OTOH, in principle item usage should replace shooting and thus ammo, mitigating the impact somewhat, at least for items that aren't heavily specialized).

I hope it will be difficult to run out of ammo with say the standard rifle or Laserpistol. Even using up a full magacine during the fight should be rare (say bosses or so.) - thus one "good" and one "standard" magacine might suffice.

However, if a char has a rocket launcher or similar, the ammo would take up the full backpack, and still the char might run out of ammo. But while the ammo lasts, the weapon will deal out lots of damage.

So this gives the player some option how to load out a char:

damage dealer with rocket launcher

damage dealer with less ammo for the heavy weapon, but a standard weapon in the backpack (so he will not be defenseless once the rockets are gone)

support char, who has a standard weapon, one or two spare magacines (enough for any fight) and medpacks or similar.

soldier, who has only a standard weapon, but a magacine each of every damage type (switching to the one which does work best for the current foe). Maybe one or two medpacks additionally, and a bit of standard ammo which does not work great against anyone, but works against everyone.

Seloun wrote:
That does beg the question, though - what happens if you run out ammo? Or will it only cover special ammo? Special ammo only seems safer, or perhaps an extra-long action to dig ammo out of your backpack instead of somewhere convenient? The main issue I would see regarding covering regular ammo is that the opportunity cost of bringing items becomes pretty high if regular ammo took item slots too (OTOH, in principle item usage should replace shooting and thus ammo, mitigating the impact somewhat, at least for items that aren't heavily specialized).

You pray that your team will finish the enemy quickly while taking cover or act as an obvious distraction and catch bullets? (No you can't use them even if you catch them.)
It was planned in the first place that at least one slot will be used for a magazine. Nothing has really changed in that regard.

Lonestar51 wrote:I hope it will be difficult to run out of ammo with say the standard rifle or Laserpistol. Even using up a full magacine during the fight should be rare (say bosses or so.) - thus one "good" and one "standard" magacine might suffice.

The basic ammunition magazines will be pretty big and cheap, so that should be the case. Of course it will also depend on the ammunition usage, if you only use full auto you'll run out much sooner then someone who's more conservative with his ammunition.

Lonestar51 wrote:However, if a char has a rocket launcher or similar, the ammo would take up the full backpack, and still the char might run out of ammo. But while the ammo lasts, the weapon will deal out lots of damage.

So this gives the player some option how to load out a char:

damage dealer with rocket launcher
damage dealer with less ammo for the heavy weapon, but a standard weapon in the backpack (so he will not be defenseless once the rockets are gone)
support char, who has a standard weapon, one or two spare magacines (enough for any fight) and medpacks or similar.
soldier, who has only a standard weapon, but a magacine each of every damage type (switching to the one which does work best for the current foe). Maybe one or two medpacks additionally, and a bit of standard ammo which does not work great against anyone, but works against everyone.

Yes I expressed the same concerns to Anima, because I wanted the "low-level" ammo to always be unlimited, but instead he thinks there shouldn't be any unlimited ammo. Anima is the ultimate evil game designer!
Jokes apart, I think it will depend on difficulty level, obviously easier level there will be more ammo, or simply enemy will have lower HP (so as consequence you'll need less bullets to kill them).

In any case, no matter how we decide to do it, we haven't really thought what happens if one of your characters runs out of ammo. I mean, let's say just ONE of your characters runs out of ammo: what does he/she do in his/her turn? Can't be simply skipping the turn or be forced to use Psionics I think...? Something to consider, right now I don't have any ideas though!

jack1974 wrote:In any case, no matter how we decide to do it, we haven't really thought what happens if one of your characters runs out of ammo. I mean, let's say just ONE of your characters runs out of ammo: what does he/she do in his/her turn? Can't be simply skipping the turn or be forced to use Psionics I think...? Something to consider, right now I don't have any ideas though!

Is swapping stuff with other party members allowed (as in PS1)? In this case either the char gets ammo, or a spare weapon and continues blasting away, or a medpack and switches to support role. If no swapping is available, then the char must use psionics or defensive moves.

More interesting is the question: What if the whole party runs out of ammo? Say they use all rocket launchers, have bad luck when aiming, the enemies have high HP, big time healing and resistance to rocket blast damage. What then? Attack with bare hands and psionics? Run away? Play through x rounds before the defeat happens which could not be avoided anyway?

I've so many projects going on that I don't remember the EXACT details, but I think that differently from PS1, you can't really do a "complete MISS" of a target. So the ammo you use, produces results in 99% of cases.
I'm more "worried" about the healing thing indeed. If enemies have a way to regain HP in a unlimited way, and the player have a limited ammo, obviously things could get bad.
But anyway, things can be adjusted, for now I like Anima's ideas. I think once the game reaches the beta testing phase I can see better what needs to be changed. But as said already there should be plenty of basic ammo available, so at least in easy/normal level shouldn't be much of an issue...and people playing at Hard/Nightmare mode, they're asking for trouble

I don't think, also many enemies won't really have "ammo", since are "creatures", some attack with melee, and so on. I am thinking that the ammo feature is more to balance the game, than to add realism.

It's planned. If there are no serious problems with it you can expect them to run out as well. Though they will probably get bigger magazines to make up for lack of real long term planning.

Lonestar51 wrote:
Is swapping stuff with other party members allowed (as in PS1)? In this case either the char gets ammo, or a spare weapon and continues blasting away, or a medpack and switches to support role. If no swapping is available, then the char must use psionics or defensive moves.

I'm not sure yet. While it could lead to "storage" characters you have only four characters. So it shouldn't be much of an issue.

More interesting is the question: What if the whole party runs out of ammo? Say they use all rocket launchers, have bad luck when aiming, the enemies have high HP, big time healing and resistance to rocket blast damage. What then? Attack with bare hands and psionics? Run away? Play through x rounds before the defeat happens which could not be avoided anyway?

There will of course be the option to retry a fight so you don't have to fight if you think you've already lost. If you have no other option left to defeat the enemy you've lost. Not every strategy needs to work on every enemy.

jack1974 wrote:Yes I expressed the same concerns to Anima, because I wanted the "low-level" ammo to always be unlimited, but instead he thinks there shouldn't be any unlimited ammo. Anima is the ultimate evil game designer!
Jokes apart, I think it will depend on difficulty level, obviously easier level there will be more ammo, or simply enemy will have lower HP (so as consequence you'll need less bullets to kill them).

In any case, no matter how we decide to do it, we haven't really thought what happens if one of your characters runs out of ammo. I mean, let's say just ONE of your characters runs out of ammo: what does he/she do in his/her turn? Can't be simply skipping the turn or be forced to use Psionics I think...? Something to consider, right now I don't have any ideas though!

In a world were people can design games with silent unwinnable states I'm quite far away from the ultimate evil. Working on it though

Using your weapon is just one option, there are still all other options open. Some of them probably won't require limited resources. So there will be something to do for the character.