PeterZ wrote:All the MAlign needed to do was seed those star line traits they wanted into their genetic slaves. Beowulf et al have already conceded to disseminating any mods the genetic slaves wanted to keep. So include the mods of the star lines. They were initially tested on the slave lines anyway.

IF they seed any genetic slave with ALL the star line traits, that individual is a star line. Seeding the traits piece-meal -- as they've actually done, if inadvertently -- isn't seeding the star lines, it's just seeding random traits.

PeterZ wrote:The reason they didn't is that very trait that scared the piss out of the survivors of The Final War. The MAlign wanted to dominate and supplant their benighted inferiors. They couldn't care less about Leonard Detweiler's true goals beyond justifying their domination. Hubris, plain and simple.

This is a fair indictment of the MAlign. There are dozens of ways they could have accomplished their stated goal without fanfare or opposition. The lack of fanfare would make rubbing Beowulf's nose in their success a bit difficult, so they have to have the fanfare and be as "in-your-face" to Beowulf as possible.

PeterZ wrote:All the MAlign needed to do was seed those star line traits they wanted into their genetic slaves. Beowulf et al have already conceded to disseminating any mods the genetic slaves wanted to keep. So include the mods of the star lines. They were initially tested on the slave lines anyway.

IF they seed any genetic slave with ALL the star line traits, that individual is a star line. Seeding the traits piece-meal -- as they've actually done, if inadvertently -- isn't seeding the star lines, it's just seeding random traits.

Let's first agree on their stated goals, eh?

If the goals are to provide uplift and an open attitude in human genetic experimentation, then forcing the galactic society to accept the most egregious product of those experiments is the first stage goal. The second stage is to shift the sorts of experiments allowed further past the Beowulf code. The freed genetic slaves have completed the first goal. That the MAlign have infiltrated galactic society so deeply suggests that they could have shifted public opinion had they chosen to.

They could have won already and already have won in a very practical way....IF they truly wanted to effect Leonard Detweiler's vision. They don't. They truly are the super soldiers on steroids.

PeterZ wrote:All the MAlign needed to do was seed those star line traits they wanted into their genetic slaves. Beowulf et al have already conceded to disseminating any mods the genetic slaves wanted to keep. So include the mods of the star lines. They were initially tested on the slave lines anyway.

Weird Harold wrote:IF they seed any genetic slave with ALL the star line traits, that individual is a star line. Seeding the traits piece-meal -- as they've actually done, if inadvertently -- isn't seeding the star lines, it's just seeding random traits.

PeterZ wrote:Let's first agree on their stated goals, eh?

If the goals are to provide uplift and an open attitude in human genetic experimentation, then forcing the galactic society to accept the most egregious product of those experiments is the first stage goal. The second stage is to shift the sorts of experiments allowed further past the Beowulf code. The freed genetic slaves have completed the first goal. That the MAlign have infiltrated galactic society so deeply suggests that they could have shifted public opinion had they chosen to.

They could have won already and already have won in a very practical way....IF thhuman genetic experimentationey truly wanted to effect Leonard Detweiler's vision. They don't. They truly are the super soldiers on steroids.

But, isn't there some moral difference, some tiny sliver of gray area between egregious human genetic experimentationand general genetic uplift? because if there is not then there is no justifiable reason for Lenny D to leave beowulf in the first place. Unless of course TWW is not to be believed.

PLEASE excuse the introduction of politics here: It is like saying fascists and Antifascists are morally equivalent. it is exactly these egregious human experiments the Beowulf Code was created to Stop. AGAIN Enforcers of the Cherwell Conventions can not act otherwise morally than to accept these "freaks" onto their planets. And of the huge number of genetic slaves, even limiting it to pleasure units, those blue haired, cat eyed, smurf looking "freaks" represent a tiny proportion of rescued slaves. The rest are like Ginny Usher and Paolo D'Arrezzo. Nothing good body sculpt could not produce.

PeterZ wrote:All the MAlign needed to do was seed those star line traits they wanted into their genetic slaves. Beowulf et al have already conceded to disseminating any mods the genetic slaves wanted to keep. So include the mods of the star lines. They were initially tested on the slave lines anyway.

Weird Harold wrote:IF they seed any genetic slave with ALL the star line traits, that individual is a star line. Seeding the traits piece-meal -- as they've actually done, if inadvertently -- isn't seeding the star lines, it's just seeding random traits.

PeterZ wrote:Let's first agree on their stated goals, eh?

If the goals are to provide uplift and an open attitude in human genetic experimentation, then forcing the galactic society to accept the most egregious product of those experiments is the first stage goal. The second stage is to shift the sorts of experiments allowed further past the Beowulf code. The freed genetic slaves have completed the first goal. That the MAlign have infiltrated galactic society so deeply suggests that they could have shifted public opinion had they chosen to.

They could have won already and already have won in a very practical way....IF thhuman genetic experimentationey truly wanted to effect Leonard Detweiler's vision. They don't. They truly are the super soldiers on steroids.

pappilon wrote:But, isn't there some moral difference, some tiny sliver of gray area between egregious human genetic experimentationand general genetic uplift? because if there is not then there is no justifiable reason for Lenny D to leave beowulf in the first place. Unless of course TWW is not to be believed.

PLEASE excuse the introduction of politics here: It is like saying fascists and Antifascists are morally equivalent. it is exactly these egregious human experiments the Beowulf Code was created to Stop. AGAIN Enforcers of the Cherwell Conventions can not act otherwise morally than to accept these "freaks" onto their planets. And of the huge number of genetic slaves, even limiting it to pleasure units, those blue haired, cat eyed, smurf looking "freaks" represent a tiny proportion of rescued slaves. The rest are like Ginny Usher and Paolo D'Arrezzo. Nothing good body sculpt could not produce.

Engaging in experiments that lead to uplift but require culling children is not acceptable. That would make the fascist and antifacist identical. Just as both those groups promote the same activities the curtail freedoms, especially freedom of speech.

Genetic engineering isn't a problem regardless of the mods. (Assuming the mods actually works to support the moded form). What does it matter if someone has cat eyes or looks like a centaur or looks like Grod. It's how the people are treated when the discovery experiments are conducted which may be problematical, that and how the product of the gene mods are treated.

Beowulf treats the moded ex-genetic slaves just fine. So long as they do, the MAlign can experiment as brutally as they wish and know that whatever viable genetic slave hey produce will be accepted by Beowulf. They won that round.

The next stage requires accepting no limits to how human experiments may be conducted. The MAlign could have infiltrated those societies and persuaded them to adopt more liberal morals or replaced those societies by whatever means necessary. They chose the latter and proved the most gengeneer phobic detractor of Leonard Detweiler right. Planned uplift leads to a supersoldier mentality. Normals beware!

PeterZ wrote:Beowulf treats the moded ex-genetic slaves just fine. So long as they do, the MAlign can experiment as brutally as they wish and know that whatever viable genetic slave hey produce will be accepted by Beowulf. They won that round.

Let us note a standard but not well-known rule of genetics. Suppose we have a gene that does not create a net reproductive advantage, as opposed say to a gene that guarantees that carriers always have twins.

What happens to the number of people carrying that gene as the generations go on? Nothing. If you start with a billion population planet, and give a million of them a gene that lets them view yellow as a distinct primary color, well, for almost everyone there are no consequences. Now wait 30 generations. The planet is so arranged that it still has a population of one billion. One million of them are still carrying the gene. Time neither dilutes genes nor causes them to spread, unless the gene makes it more or less likely that the bearer will have children.

phillies wrote:Let us note a standard but not well-known rule of genetics. Suppose we have a gene that does not create a net reproductive advantage, as opposed say to a gene that guarantees that carriers always have twins.

What happens to the number of people carrying that gene as the generations go on? Nothing. If you start with a billion population planet, and give a million of them a gene that lets them view yellow as a distinct primary color, well, for almost everyone there are no consequences. Now wait 30 generations. The planet is so arranged that it still has a population of one billion. One million of them are still carrying the gene. Time neither dilutes genes nor causes them to spread, unless the gene makes it more or less likely that the bearer will have children.

phillies wrote:Let us note a standard but not well-known rule of genetics. Suppose we have a gene that does not create a net reproductive advantage, as opposed say to a gene that guarantees that carriers always have twins.

What happens to the number of people carrying that gene as the generations go on? Nothing. If you start with a billion population planet, and give a million of them a gene that lets them view yellow as a distinct primary color, well, for almost everyone there are no consequences. Now wait 30 generations. The planet is so arranged that it still has a population of one billion. One million of them are still carrying the gene. Time neither dilutes genes nor causes them to spread, unless the gene makes it more or less likely that the bearer will have children.

You're also missing gene drives. Genes don't need to follow Mendelian rules. You could make a gene that is always passed down. In fact, this allows for genes to spread that actually reduce fitness. One could theoretically create a gene that is always passed down and always results in male children. Unless the species has a counter-measure the gene will spread despite the increasingly massive hit to fitness. Up until it reduces the fitness of all members of the species to zero.

In the books Honor's modification has such a gene drive.

Oh and genetic drift. If a gene doesn't actually do anything fitness wise, it has a chance of getting taken out by mutation. Case in point, the gene for Vitamin C synthesis.