Russian Navy: Status & News #3

wilhelm wrote:First of all, Singapore and Taiwan both operate variants of the La Fayette Class, as does France. None of these are "Gulf navies

Nope.

Formidable =/= La Fayette Derivative =/= Variant

Apart a few odd vessels in France, Saudi (even those were quite different) and ROC (most similar hull) the whole project was a failure. Naked vessels wasting tonnage as I said. A fancy, overpriced 80s design that lead nowhere and died in the early 00s. Sold badly too.

Looks like some more anti-Russia faux angst. A Kilo type sub was in there for 3 days last week on its way back to the Black Sea. Very good reasons for topping up the tanks there as it means saving that amount of fuel and stores from having to be transited on the Syrian Express.

Importantly, it really does look now as if they are in absolutely no hurry at all to get to Syria.

Spain is facing international criticism as it reportedly prepares to refuel a flotilla of Russian warships en route to bolstering the bombing campaign against the besieged Syrian city of Aleppo. El País reported that the Spanish ministry of foreign affairs was reviewing the permit issued to the Russian flotilla to stop at Ceuta. Politicians and military figures condemned the support from a NATO member as "scandalous," and "wholly inappropriate," while the head of the alliance indicated Madrid should rethink the pit stop.

As The Guardian reports, warships led by the aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov are expected to take on fuel and supplies at the Spanish port of Ceuta after passing through the Straits of Gibraltar on Wednesday morning. Spanish media reported that two Spanish vessels, the frigate Almirante Juan de Borbón and logistical ship Cantabria, were shadowing the warships as they passed through international waters, and that the Admiral Kuznetsov, along with other Russian vessels and submarines, would dock at Ceuta to restock after 10 days at sea. Late on Tuesday night, El País reported that the Spanish ministry of foreign affairs was reviewing the permit issued to the Russian flotilla to stop at Ceuta. Last week British Royal Navy vessels monitored the Russian warships as they moved through the English Channel. The vessels were shadowed by the navy as they passed through the Dover Strait .

The enclave of Ceuta sits on the tip of Africa’s north coast, across the Straits of Gibraltar from mainland Spain, and bordering Morocco, which also lays claim to the territory. Although Ceuta is part of the EU, its Nato status is unclear, and since 2011 at least 60 Russian warships have docked there.

Nato said the prospect of Russia’s only aircraft carrier heading to the region does not “inspire confidence” that Moscow is seeking a political solution to the Syrian crisis.

The naval group is made up of Russia’s only aircraft carrier, Admiral Kuznetsov, as well as a nuclear-powered battle cruiser, two anti-submarine warships and four support vessels, likely escorted by submarines, Nato officials said. The naval deployment, a rare sight since the end of the Soviet Union, is carrying dozens of fighter bombers and helicopters and is expected to join around 10 other Russian vessels already off the Syrian coast, diplomats said.

But, as The Telegraph reports, Spain is facing anger and criticism from all asunder at their decision to allow the refueling to occur.

Nato secretary-general Jens Stoltenberg warned on Tuesday that Russian warships heading for Syria could be used to target civilians. “We are concerned and have expressed very clearly by the potential use of that battle group to increase air strikes on civilians in Aleppo,” Stoltenberg said, adding that it was “up to each nation to decide whether these vessels may obtain supplies and refuel at different ports along the route to the eastern Mediterranean”. “The battle group may be used to increase Russia’s ability to take part in combat operations over Syria and to conduct even more air strikes against Aleppo,”

Guy Verhofstadt, former prime minister of Belgium and now the EU’s representative on Brexit talks with the UK, called Spain’s decision to allow the refuelling “scandalous”.

Sir Gerald Howarth MP, a former Defence Minister, said it would be “wholly inappropriate” for a Nato member to refuel the Russian vessels. “Spain is a member of Nato and Nato is already facing challenges from Russia, not least in the Baltics. The Russians stand accused of indiscriminate bombing in Aleppo and Syria and it would be inappropriate to render them military assistance.”

Former Royal Navy chief Lord West told the newspaper “There are sanctions against Russia and it’s an extraordinary thing for a Nato ally to do.”

Spain’s Foreign Ministry told the Telegraph requests from the Russian navy were considered on a “case by case basis, depending on the characteristics of the ship concerned”. A spokesman said: “Russian navy vessels have been making calls in Spanish ports for years”. But in an indication Madrid was feeling increased diplomatic pressure not to help Moscow, the Spanish government said it was reviewing the Russian request. The spokesman said “The latest requested dockings are being revised at the current time in light of information we are receiving from our allies and from the Russian authorities.”

Russia’s military visits are estimated each to bring in more than $400,000 to the city through a combination of mooring fees, fuel and supplies, and the money spent by sailors during their time onshore. "As long as the Spanish government hasn't banned it, it is a commercial matter like any other vessel stopping to take on supplies, even if it concerns military ships,"

Russia should impose extra sanctions on those countries that put pressure on Spain... Spain has already lost fees of profit on fuel and Sailors spending money in their ports.

Perhaps Russia should double overflight fees for European airlines crossing their airspace to Asia...

2) why but why again 100mm if Russia already is using 76mm and 57mm on light ships?

100mm guns offer far more in terms of range and effect on target and are useful against a much wider range of targets than any 76mm gun.

In terms of ammo you can have a much wider variety of rounds for the larger calibre... including EMP rounds and guided rounds and air burst rounds to defeat incoming Anti ship missiles and other threats.

An EMP round would be a useful way of dealing with a large number of incoming subsonic anti ship missiles for instance.

_________________“The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

GarryB wrote:Russia should impose extra sanctions on those countries that put pressure on Spain... Spain has already lost fees of profit on fuel and Sailors spending money in their ports.

Perhaps Russia should double overflight fees for European airlines crossing their airspace to Asia...

2) why but why again 100mm if Russia already is using 76mm and 57mm on light ships?

100mm guns offer far more in terms of range and effect on target and are useful against a much wider range of targets than any 76mm gun.

In terms of ammo you can have a much wider variety of rounds for the larger calibre... including EMP rounds and guided rounds and air burst rounds to defeat incoming Anti ship missiles and other threats.

An EMP round would be a useful way of dealing with a large number of incoming subsonic anti ship missiles for instance.

Malta has done the same, hopefully Russia is taking names of these countries.

GarryB wrote:Russia should impose extra sanctions on those countries that put pressure on Spain... Spain has already lost fees of profit on fuel and Sailors spending money in their ports.

Perhaps Russia should double overflight fees for European airlines crossing their airspace to Asia...

2) why but why again 100mm if Russia already is using 76mm and 57mm on light ships?

100mm guns offer far more in terms of range and effect on target and are useful against a much wider range of targets than any 76mm gun.

In terms of ammo you can have a much wider variety of rounds for the larger calibre... including EMP rounds and guided rounds and air burst rounds to defeat incoming Anti ship missiles and other threats.

An EMP round would be a useful way of dealing with a large number of incoming subsonic anti ship missiles for instance.

Malta has done the same, hopefully Russia is taking names of these countries.

According to this article 16 Redut SAM, 8 Uran ShSM and 8 Club-K ShSM or SSM missiles. And size wise at 3500 t, is almost as big as the 11356 and only 1000 t less then the 22350. If so explains the lack of further orders for the 22350 and not bothering to finish the 11356 with Russian engines.

Well they are still building 3 22350's class ships, there is zero reasons to order more right now since those three aren't even ready to go yet.

They are finishing the six ships of the 11356 class for the BSF, the started construction on the 6th vessel.

That said 3500t? that's a frigate dunno why they label it has a corvette. Well let's see how long it takes them to build one of these.

According to this article 16 Redut SAM, 8 Uran ShSM and 8 Club-K ShSM or SSM missiles. And size wise at 3500 t, is almost as big as the 11356 and only 1000 t less then the 22350. If so explains the lack of further orders for the 22350 and not bothering to finish the 11356 with Russian engines.

That article is quite obsolete. (good pics though)

At most they can fit one Club-K container.

Lack of orders for 22350 is due to engines, they will simply not be ready for couple of more years. They just completed testing stand for turbines.

11356 is sold to Indians because by the time they are done they might as well move on to 22350 (I still disagree with this sale)

Engines for 20380/20385/20386 on the other hand are, as of recently, available from local source. Hence the orders for this ship.

Last edited by PapaDragon on Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

According to this article 16 Redut SAM, 8 Uran ShSM and 8 Club-K ShSM or SSM missiles. And size wise at 3500 t, is almost as big as the 11356 and only 1000 t less then the 22350. If so explains the lack of further orders for the 22350 and not bothering to finish the 11356 with Russian engines.

That article is quite obsolete. (good pics though)

At most they can fit on Club-K container.

Lack of orders for 22350 is due to engines, they will simply not be ready for couple of more years. They just completed testing stand for turbines.

11356 is sold to Indians because by the time they are done they might as well move on to 22350 (I still disagree with this sale)

Engines for 20380/20385/20386 on the other hand are, as of recently, available from local source. Hence the orders for this ship.

The deal you speak of has to do with different ships no?. They will build 2 more locally for India and 2 within India.

I don't know really. They did say that engines for Indian ships will be built in Russia. They were pretty specific about it actually, so that is new.

At the time there was an announcement that India and Ukraine were 'comfortable' doing a deal where Ukraine supplied the engines for the first two for certain and I assume probably the two Indian built ships as well.

I don't know really. They did say that engines for Indian ships will be built in Russia. They were pretty specific about it actually, so that is new.

At the time there was an announcement that India and Ukraine were 'comfortable' doing a deal where Ukraine supplied the engines for the first two for certain and I assume probably the two Indian built ships as well.

There was an article on an Indian defense-focused website several days ago saying that Ukraine and India had agreed on Ukraine supplying the engines for the frigates: http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/10/ukraine-agrees-to-provide-india-with.html

Spain and Malta denied access to port to Admiral Kuznetsov carrier group for refueling under NATO pressure. Algeria chosen a middle solution..

Ship group will not go to Algeria, but will be able to send a tanker that can refuel in the Algerian port. This information was confirmed in the social network Twitter, which the user Babak Taghvaee said that this ship will be the tanker "Sergey Osipov".It is not known whether it will happen during the exercise, which reported the Ministry of Defense of Russia, and which will take place not far from the Algerian town of Jijel 3 November, or sooner.

Maybe this is just speculation, but according to this article 3 Russian submarines, 2 nuclear + 1 diesel are on the way to the Mediterranean.

Apparently, UK submarine detected two Russian nuclear submarines of AKULA class(Gepard and Pantera) which are probably Northern fleet only seaworthy Akula class submarines and another Kilo class submarine heading to the Mediterranean. This could be true, because NF has between 6-8 active SSN + 3 active SSGN.

Personaly, I doubt that Pantera could fire Kalibr missile, but regarding previous reports about Victor III submarine Obninsk(which passed modernization at Nerpa 2014) firing Kalibr missile, we can conclude that Gepard and Pskov submarines, which passed modernization later in 2016, could probably use Kalibr missile too.

What do you guys make of the reports of a Walrus class sub being chased away from Kuznetsov group a few days back?http://tass.com/defense/911282

"Earlier today, at 06:50 on November 9 the search and attack group consisting of anti-submarine ships The Severomorsk and The Vice-Admiral Kulakov spotted a diesel submarine of the Dutch Navy (presumably Walrus), which was trying to approach the Northern Fleet’s aircraft carrier group for surveillance purposes."Northern Fleet's anti-submarine ships forced the submarine to leave the area where Russia's Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft carrier was at the moment."The crews of two anti-submarine ships, The Severomorsk and The Vice-Admiral Kulakov, easily identified the submarine that was 20 kilometers away using the standard onboard hydroacoustics systems and data obtained from anti-submarine helicopters Ka-27 PL. Despite the submarine’s attempts to evade surveillance a stable hydroacoustic contact was established with it. The ships kept track of the submarine for more than an hour and forced it to leave the area of the aircraft carrier-led group," Konashenkov said. According to the ministry, the submarine's maneuvers in the Mediterranean were dangerous and could have led to grave navigation consequences."The clumsy attempts to carry out dangerous maneuvers in the direct proximity of the Russian group of warships could have led to grave navigation consequences," he said.The ministry official also said the Russian Navy’s aircraft carrier group regularly discovered NATO’s submarines on its way to the Mediterranean."Throughout its voyage, a Northern Fleet detachment regularly discovered NATO’s submarines along the route. Actions by USS Virginia, which was trying to spy on the Russian vessels, were recorded in early November," Konashenkov said."It is noteworthy that these large-displacement submarines are not meant for conducting surveillance," he noted.

Seems to me it's either a a shocking proof of very good ASW or covering for ASW shortcomings.If they really detected & confirmed type as a Walrus @20km with hull mounted sonar it's pretty impressive, maybe moreso detection of Virginia.20km with a helicopter maybe more believable?

Walrus class notoriously claimed complete virtual destruction of a US Carrier Battle Group during an exercise a few years back.Certainly Walrus has been in the Eastern Med since it was at Malta in Sept.Haven't seen anything where Dutch deny the incident.

There are inconsistencies: if they detected it @20km & forced it away from that range they should hardly be calling any manoeuvres dangerous or in 'direct proximity', presumably at some point it was a lot closer than 20km?I'm also curious about claiming certainly a Dutch sub but only 'presumably' a Walrus while specifically claiming to detect USS Virginia rather than a Virginia class.

Different vessels even within the same class make different noises and therefore can be uniquely identified using those sound signatures.

I believe the report mentions helicopters were used for tracking the sub targets but I suspect hull mounted sonars would also be used for initial detection.

Probably the main reason they have been taking their time... they have likely been listening for NATO all the way... this is a training voyage so why would you not train to intercept and persecute enemy Subs... there are unlikely to be many in Syria to play with...

The practise and coordination of forces will be useful.

_________________“The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

I've been wondering for a while now, but why hasn't Russia deployed any Piranya-750 midget subs, they seem very useful for coastal defense especially in the BS and the Baltic, it looks like the 750B version might carry 4 Clubs/Kalibers, cheaper and faster to build than even conventional Kilo subs, and since there short range anyway you might as well make them completely Electric (Batt/AIP), no navy in there right mind would dare enter Russian brown waters with these things around.

And there's also the possibility of deploying these in rivers so you'll also have long range Kalibers, ready to fire there.