Referring back to your earlier response to my post: I did not say life was a waste of time, only that trying to converse with other species is presently a waste of time.

Referring to your premisses and conclusions immediately above. I believe P1, P2, and P3 are invalid, and your conclusion is false. Other than that your logic is fine.

Referring to your statements that follow, I agree with the first four, but not with the dichotomy you define in the last one. I believe there are other choices beyond the two you offer, although I tend to live my life more or less according to the former.

[quote author=“Occam”]Referring back to your earlier response to my post: I did not say life was a waste of time, only that trying to converse with other species is presently a waste of time.

I am glad you are not in charge of the space program.

[quote author=“Occam”]Referring to your premisses and conclusions immediately above. I believe P1, P2, and P3 are invalid, and your conclusion is false. Other than that your logic is fine.

So, the universe is not known in your world.
Are you aware of your own presence?

[quote author=“Occam”]Referring to your statements that follow, I agree with the first four, but not with the dichotomy you define in the last one.

I was making a statement on the choice we have while existing.
Either humanity can enjoy life and help others through the nonsensical realities of corruption and despair or humanity can perpetuate the skeptical pessimism that creates the nonsensical realities of corruption and despair.

[quote author=“Entity”][quote author=“Occam”]Referring back to your earlier response to my post: I did not say life was a waste of time, only that trying to converse with other species is presently a waste of time.I am glad you are not in charge of the space program.

On the contrary. I think the space program should concentrate on the nuts and bolts of actual space travel, and not worry about whether or not there is anyone to communicate with up there.

Anyway, good look working out a more concise way of describing whatever it is you’re about to these people you’re trying to “help”. Obviously it’s not going down very well here! I think you might just be doing a bad job of explaining it.

[quote author=“advocatus”] Anyway, good look working out a more concise way of describing whatever it is you’re about to these people you’re trying to “help”. Obviously it’s not going down very well here! I think you might just be doing a bad job of explaining it.

I want to separate from the traditional religious belief of a creator or oneness of the universe and state that it is purely natural for the universe to be known if the conditions within the universe’s shell warrant it. Humanity is the agent that allows the universe to be known and without humanity, the universe would not be known. Since it is the purpose of the universe to be known and humanity is an agent that knows, it is in the best interest of the universe to have humanity exist because without humanity the universe has not attained it’s purpose.

The core of my concept is to establish a universe without divinity and a humanity with a task to fulfill with life as it’s tool. Humanity has a duty to the universe and that is to sustain our collective existence and therefore any belief system that values the death of a human entity over life works against humanity’s duty to the universe.

Entity, if you are willing to acknowledge that you are assigning this purpose to the universe and humanity out of your own volition, because you subjectively believe this purpose to be worthwhile, then fine, that’s all well and good.

BUT, if you think that the universe has the purpose of being understood by humans objectively, then I think that’s where you’ve gone wrong. Why should the universe care if we know it exists or not? Why would the universe even need a purpose in the first place? And who says we even know anything significant about it, simply because we have observed a bunch of vacuous space and gave it the name “universe”... For all we know, ours may be part of a gigantic, dynamic multi-verse.

If you acknowledge the validity of evolution, then that also diminishes your appeal that humans have some special role - after all, we’re just apes with a highly developed neocortex and natural selection made us that way, not the universe’s wish to be known and recognized. More intelligent life may have already developed in millions of other places in the universe as well, so to claim that we are its pet project seems a bit unwise to me.

[quote author=“HolyAvenger”]Entity, if you are willing to acknowledge that you are assigning this purpose to the universe and humanity out of your own volition, because you subjectively believe this purpose to be worthwhile, then fine, that’s all well and good.

I will admit that I used my power of reason through the deduction of events from what I have experience as I exist on earth.

[quote author=“HolyAvenger”]BUT, if you think that the universe has the purpose of being understood by humans objectively, then I think that’s where you’ve gone wrong. Why should the universe care if we know it exists or not?

The universe does not care if we know it exists and I have never said that it needs just humans to acknowledge I believe it is any knowing live entity and human’s are one of a number possible scenarios.

[quote author=“HolyAvenger”]Why would the universe even need a purpose in the first place?

I am simply stating that if the universe went unknown throughout it’s life cycle it would have no reference of it existing. In other words if it is not known why and who would care and it would be as if it never existed in the first place. The knowing living entity is a natural event within the universe’s process of being and it is a knowing living entity that brings the universe into the realm of the known.

[quote author=“HolyAvenger”] And who says we even know anything significant about it, simply because we have observed a bunch of vacuous space and gave it the name “universe”... For all we know, ours may be part of a gigantic, dynamic multi-verse.

All we really need to know is that it exist our motivation to understand the eternal dynamics of the universe allows humanity to better communicate to other knowing living entities throughout the realm of being. I have said before that it may well be necessary to locate living knowing entities in other “verses”

[quote author=“HolyAvenger”]If you acknowledge the validity of evolution, then that also diminishes your appeal that humans have some special role - after all, we’re just apes with a highly developed neocortex and natural selection made us that way, not the universe’s wish to be known and recognized. More intelligent life may have already developed in millions of other places in the universe as well, so to claim that we are its pet project seems a bit unwise to me.

I am not arguing one way or another how we arrive at where we find ourselves today or that we are the only ones that are aware of the universe but until we find out that other knowing living beings that can either communicate their awareness to us or we can do communicate our awareness the them we should assume we are the only ones.

[quote author=“advocatus”]I don’t think so. I don’t think the universe has a purpose, because it’s not a living, thinking creature. Human beings seem to need a purpose (or at least feel as if they have a purpose), but we are really good at making up our own purpose.

“The universe may have a purpose, but nothing we know suggests that, if so, this purpose has any similarity to ours.”
-Bertrand Russell

I don’t think you can discount the fact that our universe might just be a microscopic part of a living being :wink:

We are part of the universe. We are the universe. I’d say the universe IS living (in a sense), just as the Earth is alive and growing. We are all part of the same system. Whether or not it is a closed system remains to be detirmined.

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-Kyriako.What intrigues me most is not the question whose answer I simply don’t know, but the question whose answer I can’t know.