Thoughts from the interface of science, religion, law and culture

After spending several years touring the country as a stand up comedian, Ed Brayton tired of explaining his jokes to small groups of dazed illiterates and turned to writing as the most common outlet for the voices in his head. He has appeared on the Rachel Maddow Show and the Thom Hartmann Show, and is almost certain that he is the only person ever to make fun of Chuck Norris on C-SPAN.

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EVENTS

War on Christmas? Yep, It’s the Jews

You knew it had to come down to this, right? If there’s a war on Christmas, you just knew that it was the Jews behind the whole thing, running it all from their seats of extraordinary power in the banking and entertainment industries. But Burt Prelutsky can say that, because he’s Jewish:

That has changed, as you may have noticed. And I lay a great deal of the blame at the feet of my fellow Jews. When it comes to pushing the multicultural, anti-Christian agenda, you find Jewish judges, Jewish journalists and the largely Jewish funded ACLU at the forefront. What makes them even more obnoxious is that, by and large, the Jews who are leading the crusade against what is, we should never forget, a national holiday, are secular. So it’s not even a question of their religion being shortchanged; they hate their own, as well. They’re the pinheads who pretend that “separation of church and state” appears in the Constitution…

But the dirty little secret in America is that in spite of the occasional over-publicized rants by the likes of Mel Gibson and Michael Richards, anti-Semitism is no longer a problem in society; it’s been replaced by a rampant anti-Christianity.

That could have come straight out of the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, or out of Mein Kampf, which blamed the Jews for everything imaginable that was bad in society. It’s all part of a conspiracy to force us to use dreidels, or something.

Whatever “anti-Christianity” out there is caused by the dumbfucks among the Christians. I can say this because, as a self-proclaimed dumbfuck Christian myself, it is self-evident that I can criticize my in-group, and even myself, in a self-referential way of course.

When it comes to pushing the monocultural, dumbfuck Christian agenda, you find Christian judges, Christian journalists and the largely Christian funded ACLJ at the forefront.

I swear, mental midgets like Prelutsky must have a pundit column generator.

“It’s time to talk about {insert random, current, or made-up issue}, and the people causing it. The {insert random, non-christian or minority group} are responsible for this issue. If only they didn’t exist, the issue wouldn’t be around, and {insert majority or christian group} would be experiencing paradise.”

The pundit generator just adds a whole lot of extra (and sometimes very random) information that only has the flimsiest of connections. It really is a marvel of technology.

What makes them even more obnoxious is that, by and large, the Jews who are leading the crusade against what is, we should never forget, a national holiday, are secular. So it’s not even a question of their religion being shortchanged…

You know, a rational person would take this into account and realize that the whole idea of them waging a War on Christmas makes no sense at all. As in, it looks suspiciously like something that was made up to defame them.

Growing up in Catholic in an Italian-Jewish family, living in a majority Jewish neighborhood as a child, parents friends mostly Jewish, my closest adult friends mostly Jewish, I can confidently say that liberal and secular Jews are the most comfortable with Christmas. This crap flies only with evangelicals who grew up in a homogenous,Sarah Palin world where Jews are nothing but fantasy tools in an End Times story.

Regardless of whether Burt Prelutsky is Jewish or not, what he’s said is clearly ridiculous, not to mention the fact that much of what he wrote, like you said, really does sound like something out of antisemitic tirade. Also if Antisemitism isn’t a problem anymore like Prelutsky claims, I wonder how he’d explain how this blog gets its material.

There are several virulently anti-Jewish rants by God in the OT, so … but wait — you believe God is just an invention of the Jews, so …

This isn’t even gibberish.

Try again, I can’t even guess what you are trying to say.

Which anti_Jewish rants by god in the OT. I don’t remember any. God seems to be ticked off most of the time about just about everyone and everything. Being god’s chosen people was a long running disaster for the Jews. They were overrun by the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans (who kicked them out of Israel), and finally not so long ago by the Germans.

For fans of bible trivia

John:

“If you were Abraham’s children, you would do what Abraham did. …

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.
He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

In John, jesus calls the Jews, the sons and daughters of the devil and agents of darkness.

There is lots more of the same in the NT. Anti-semitism started in the NT and bigots have been quoting the bible ever since.

And for jonathan, jesus exists just like Darth Vader exists. He is a fictional character in a kludgy old book of mythology.

I never thought I’d see a Boomerang Bigot in the wild. I mean, you always hear about the self-loathing Jew, or the flaming gay homophobe (and we’ve seen a number of those in the news), but… wow. This specimen is spectacular!

@23: “Regardless of whether Burt Prelutsky is Jewish or not, what he said is clearly ridiculous…”

Sounds like you believed Mr. Brayton’s comment that ” But Burt Prelutsky can say that, because he’s Jewish” was a serious comment, rather than the eye-rolling sarcasm it clearly was (well, clearly to me, anyway).

Here’s one: “Hast thou seen what rebellious Israel hast done? she hath gone out of herself upon every high mountain, and under every green tree, and hath played the harlot there. And when she had done all these things, I said: Return to me, and she did not return. And her treacherous sister Juda saw, that because the rebellious Israel had played the harlot, I had put her away, and had given her a bill of divorce: yet her treacherous sister Juda was not afraid, but went and played the harlot also herself. And by the facility of her fornication she defiled the land, and played the harlot with stones and with stocks. And after all this, her treacherous sister Juda hath not returned to me with her whole heart, but with falsehood, saith the Lord.”

Is God anti-semitic then? And are the Jews self-hating because they worship Him?

God seems to be ticked off most of the time about just about everyone and everything.

Ah yes … What did Dickie D say of Him? “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

Ouch! But if the OT is “fiction”, who wrote it? The Jews of course! So the Jews are responsible for creating, glorifying and unleashing upon the world the ultimate moral monster. Is Dickie D anti-semitic for saying that?

Being god’s chosen people was a long running disaster for the Jews. They were overrun by the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans (who kicked them out of Israel), and finally not so long ago by the Germans.

The anti-semitic self-hating Jews who wrote the OT wondered about that: “The lion is come up out of his den, and the robber of nations hath roused himself: he is come forth out of his place, to make thy land desolate: thy cities shall be laid waste, remaining without an inhabitant. For this gird yourselves with haircloth, lament and howl: for the fierce anger of the Lord is not turned away from us. … And I said: Alas, alas, alas, O Lord God, hast thou then deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying: You shall have peace: and behold the sword reacheth even to the soul?”

In John, jesus calls the Jews, the sons and daughters of the devil and agents of darkness. There is lots more of the same in the NT. Anti-semitism started in the NT…

Since Jesus was Jewish, He must have been a self-hating Jew just like Mr Burt Prelutsky. And according to you, this particular self-hating Jew was so utterly consumed by self-hatred, He basically kick-started everyone else’s anti-semitism! Wow. What is it with the Jews?

And for jonathan, jesus exists just like Darth Vader exists. He is a fictional character in a kludgy old book of mythology.

So a non-existent character in a work of fiction gave rise to anti-semitism? A work of fiction written by Jews …

Is God anti-semitic then? And are the Jews self-hating because they worship Him?

The passage refers to Israel and Judah, two separate nations. Not the Jewish people. God doesn’t seem too happy about them though. You would have to ask the Jews. Since god doesn’t exist, off hand, I’d say they are merely deluded rather than locked in an abusive relationship.

Do you know the difference between a nation and an ethnic or religious group?

Jonathan the idiot:

Ouch! But if the OT is “fiction”, who wrote it? The Jews of course! So the Jews are responsible for creating, glorifying and unleashing upon the world the ultimate moral monster.

Cthulhu, you are so stupid, this verges on evil. The Jews didn’t write the OT. A few guys who were Jewish and lived 2500 years ago, wrote it. You are assigning collective guilt to a people today for something a few of them who lived 2 1/2 millennia ago did.

Adam Lanza, an American male just killed 20 schoolchildren. Do we have to collectively assign the blame for that to 150 million American males?

Richard Dawkins is just calling it the way it looks and most people who have read the bible agree with him.

So a non-existent character in a work of fiction gave rise to anti-semitism? A work of fiction written by Jews …

NO. Cthulhu, did you ever have a serious head injury? This is really stupid.

Humans called xians, who believe this fictional character is god in a fictional book that they believe is really the word of god gave rise to anti-semitism. Books don’t do anything but sit on tables and shelves.

People hate and kill for lies all the time and have since history was recorded. A lot of those are religious. We see it every day with Moslem suicide bombers. Or xian terrorists. I’ve been getting death threats from xians for 12 years and they’ve killed some of my colleagues.

Since Jesus was Jewish, He must have been a self-hating Jew just like Mr Burt Prelutsky.

Dumb again. Jesus is a fictional character. According to xian belief, he isn’t Jewish. He is god, that trinity thing. This is xianity 001 remedial, the center of your own religion.

And according to you, this particular self-hating Jew was so utterly consumed by self-hatred, He basically kick-started everyone else’s anti-semitism! Wow. What is it with the Jews?

No, well at least you are consistently wrong about every single point. It is not according to me..

This is well known basic history. The first time the xians passed anti-Jewish laws was when they could. When they gained state power in the 4th century under emperor Constantine. They’ve been at it ever since.

Jonathan was doing better when he was incoherent. This short journey into the dark and empty mind of a hopelessly confused non-thinker was actually a bit frightening. Hard to believe this guy is actually daring to cross streets without a minder.

Successive generations of Christians read in the Gospel of John the collective guilt of Jews, universally and in all generations, in the death of Christ. John’s use of the collective expression “the Jews” is likely explained by the historical circumstances in which and audience for which he wrote.

Well, clearly Jonathan is incapable of thinking. Taking a step back, it is unfortunate. There are many hazards of the modern age that prey upon humans; cars, electric applicances, bill collectors, ministers and priests, etc… It must be hard for some people to just stay alive.

Here is one excerpt from a wikipedia article on biblical anti-semitism. It’s not too long, read it yourself.

Xian antisemitism is old, dating back to the New Testament and the splitting off of xians from Jews. This is well known basic history.

The Catholic church kept it alive for 1600 years. Up until recently, the Jews were the christ killers. Pope Pius XII, Pacelli, is known as Hitler’s pope. He aided the Nazi rise to power and threw the Jews under a bus to save the Catholic church.

Dick Dawkins mentions the NOTORIOUS JEWISH LOBBY and its power iin TGD.

Twice.

Thank you for that injection of stupidity. This post is not about “any events,” it’s about the entirely non-existent “war on Christmas.” And no, I don’t think “the Jews” are influencing anything. I’m sure there are individual Jews and particular Jewish organizations that influence lots of things, just as every human being on the planet influences lots of things. But the idea that there is such a thing as the “Jewish lobby” is kind of silly. Which organization speaks for Judaism? I know of no such thing as a “Jewish lobby.” I know there’s a pretty strong pro-Israel lobby, but that’s made up mostly of fundamentalist Christians who need Israel around for their end times nonsense to come true. And none of that has a fucking thing to do with the point of this post.

The passage refers to Israel and Judah, two separate nations. Not the Jewish people.

*shrug* What you call the “virulent anti-Jewish rants by jesus” refer to the Jewish religious authorities, not the Jewish people.

The Jews didn’t write the OT. A few guys who were Jewish and lived 2500 years ago, wrote it. You are assigning collective guilt to a people today for something a few of them who lived 2 1/2 millennia ago did.

No, selective guilt determined by current allegiance. Why do you blame Christians because of what the fictional character Jesus said about the Jews in the NT? Presumably because insofar as Christians continue to subscribe to these teachings, you believe they are perpetuating the evil. In the same way, practising Jews continue to propagate the malevolent Yahweh meme excoriated by Dickie Dawk.

Adam Lanza, an American male just killed 20 schoolchildren. Do we have to collectively assign the blame for that to 150 million American males?

Humans called xians, who believe this fictional character is god in a fictional book that they believe is really the word of god gave rise to anti-semitism. Books don’t do anything but sit on tables and shelves.

Books don’t kill people, people kill people … Yet you said the fictional words spoken by this fictional character were anti-semitic rants, therefore the authors who invented the fictional character were inflammatory anti-semities. Most of these were Jews, presumably self-hating anti-semitic Jews.

I’ve been getting death threats from xians for 12 years

I’m sorry to hear that and I hope you’ve informed the police. Are these isolated individuals or members of the same organisation? Why are they threatening you — surely not for being an atheist on the internet?

and they’ve killed some of my colleagues.

I’m sorry to hear that too and I hope they’ve been brought to justice. Were these the same people who threatened you? What drove them to murder your colleagues — was it something to do with their line of work?

Jesus is a fictional character. According to xian belief, he isn’t Jewish. He is god, that trinity thing. This is xianity 001 remedial, the center of your own religion.

According to the Christian doctrine of the Incarnation, Christ is the hypostatic union of a human nature (the man Jesus) and a divine nature (the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity). He was Jewish according to His human nature.

And according to you, this particular self-hating Jew was so utterly consumed by self-hatred, He basically kick-started everyone else’s anti-semitism! Wow. What is it with the Jews?

No, well at least you are consistently wrong about every single point. It is not according to me..

This is well known basic history.

Did the (fictional) Jesus inspire the anti-Jewish sentiments of the ancient Greeks and Romans?

The first time the xians passed anti-Jewish laws was when they could. When they gained state power in the 4th century under emperor Constantine.

Maybe it was payback for Bar Kokhba’s persecution of Christians …

Pope Pius XII, Pacelli, is known as Hitler’s pope.

Only among the ill-informed or mendacious.

He aided the Nazi rise to power

How? (Just to help you get your chronological bearings, Hitler came to power in 1933. Pius XII’s reign began in 1939. His predecessor Pius XI had already condemned National Socialism in an encyclical in 1937.)

and threw the Jews under a bus to save the Catholic church.

Rabbi Dalin would disagree with that assessment. Perhaps he’s another self-hating Jewish anti-semite. There seem to be an awful lot of them about.

… Cthulhu … Cthulhu …

Why do you keep invoking a fictional character? Is it meant to be irony?

This post is not about “any events,” it’s about the entirely non-existent “war on Christmas.”

Expressions like “the Jewish war on Christmas” are certainly inflammatory; yet there have been occasions that cause quizzical eyebrows to raise. For example, the Anti-Defamation League informs us that Nativity scenes are verboten in public schools, while menorahs get a free pass — on the grounds that they are predominantly secular symbols. Yet the 32ft high “National Chanukah Menorah” in the White House grounds is sponsored by the Chabad Lubavitch sect and is lit every year by Lubavitch rabbis, to the accompaniment of music from the US Navy Band. Whatever happened to separation of church and state?

@38: A menorah isn’t the Jewish equivalent of a nativity scene; on the other hand, a Christmas tree (CT) is (those who celebrate Christmas in a secular context obviously don’t have nativity scenes, but they do have CT’s.). Are (to make your “double standard” accusation stand up better) Christmas tree “verboten in public schools.”

He is also now lying. I just point my attention elsewhere when they start doing that. Lies aren’t worth my time.

How? (Just to help you get your chronological bearings, Hitler came to power in 1933. Pius XII’s reign began in 1939. His predecessor Pius XI had already condemned National Socialism in an encyclical in 1937.)

wikipedia:

Hitler’s Pope is a book published in 1999 by the British journalist and author John Cornwell that examines the actions of Eugenio Pacelli/Pope Pius XII before and during the Nazi era, and explores the charge that he assisted in the legitimization of Adolf Hitler’s Nazi regime in Germany, through the pursuit of a Reichskonkordat in 1933.

This lie of Jonathan’s is too outrageous to let go by though.

Pope Pius XI was old and ill during his last years. Pacelli was his second in command and negotiated the Reichskonkordat with the Nazis in 1933. The signers were the Catholic church and Adolph Hitler. This greatly aided Hitler’s rise to power. Pacelli eventually became Pius XII.

Cornwell is a Catholic historian. He didn’t set out to write a derogatory book about Pacelli/Pius XII. He had access to the Vatican archives and was disturbed by what he found.

Pius XI encyclical wasn’t very direct and had little effect. By 1937 the Nazis were in control of Germany.

Expressions like “the Jewish war on Christmas” are certainly inflammatory; yet there have been occasions that cause quizzical eyebrows to raise. For example, the Anti-Defamation League informs us that Nativity scenes are verboten in public schools, while menorahs get a free pass — on the grounds that they are predominantly secular symbols. Yet the 32ft high “National Chanukah Menorah” in the White House grounds is sponsored by the Chabad Lubavitch sect and is lit every year by Lubavitch rabbis, to the accompaniment of music from the US Navy Band. Whatever happened to separation of church and state?

Unfortunately, they are right. They were describing what the Supreme Court has said on the subject and that is accurate. The court did say that a menorah was a secular symbol. The court was wrong, of course, but that is what they said. But I don’t see what that has to do with anything I said in this post or in the comment that you quoted.

But the idea that there is such a thing as the “Jewish lobby” is kind of silly. – ED Brayton

It is indeed, and it was (to say the least) “kind of silly” of Dawkins to use that phrase, since there are many non-Jews who campaign for the USA to support everything the Israeli state does, and many Jews who oppose this. I took joachim to be simply shit-stirring as usual, in the belief that atheists will defend Dawkins no matter what, but maybe he really is an antisemite.

Incidentally, “jonathangray” is, I believe (no doubt he’ll tell us if I’m wrong), the notorious advocate of destroying democracy, and reimposing Catholic monarchy and the Inquisition, who called himself “Piltdown Man” on Pharyngula. He eventually got himself banned and then persistently posted by changing his IP, sometimes as “jonathangray”. If he had his way, Jews would be returned to subordinate status – “slaves of the Church” in the charming phrase of Thomas Aquinas.

A menorah isn’t the Jewish equivalent of a nativity scene; on the other hand, a Christmas tree (CT) is (those who celebrate Christmas in a secular context obviously don’t have nativity scenes, but they do have CT’s.). Are (to make your “double standard” accusation stand up better) Christmas tree “verboten in public schools.”

The point is that the menorah is not by any stretch of the imagination a neutral, non-denominational, secular “symbol of the season” like robins, holly or snowmen or even Christmas trees. It is a thoroughly religious symbol, as much a symbol of Judaism as the Star of David. If Nativity scenes are to be banned from public spaces, so should menorahs. If menorahs are to be allowed in public spaces, so should Nativity scenes. That’s the double standard.

Ed Brayton:

[The Anti-Defamation League] were describing what the Supreme Court has said on the subject and that is accurate. The court did say that a menorah was a secular symbol. The court was wrong, of course, but that is what they said. But I don’t see what that has to do with anything I said in this post or in the comment that you quoted.

The issue here is not whether the ADL’s website accurately reports court rulings. The issue is why the supposedly secular courts make rulings like this in the first place, rulings that exhibit a blatant double standard in favour of the Jewish religion by allowing a Jewish religious symbol to be displayed in public schools. Why does a supposedly secular state allow an avowedly religious organisation to erect a “national” menorah (the biggest in the world) in the grounds of the White House? Why does it allow members of that organisation — rabbis — to light it every year in a public ceremony accompanied by a United States military band? Why does the United States Congress pass bills which make obeisance to the Noahide Laws, complete with approving references to the “great spiritual leader” of that same religious organisation, which tirelessly promotes observance of those Laws among Gentiles for religious reasons?

If Jewish individuals or groups attack the public display of Christian religious symbols in the name of a secular separation of church and state, I don’t assume it’s part of a “Jewish war on Christmas”. Normally I would assume it’s all just part of the secular war on religion in the public square. But when a supposedly secular Jewish organisation like the ADL happily endorses court rulings that permit the display of Jewish religious symbols in public schools, one is entitled to ask what’s going on. If religious Jews like Chabad Lubavitch were to attack the public display of Christian religious symbols, at Christmas or any other time, I wouldn’t raise an eyebrow. Of course Lubavitchers are going to be antagonistic towards Christianity. But when a supposedly secular state allows the Lubavitchers to publicly display gigantic Jewish religious symbols, my eyebrows go stratospheric — and so should every secularist’s.

The ADL are quick to pounce on perceived violations of church-state separation, so we may assume they endorse this ruling in favour of menorahs in schools because they don’t condemn it. If the article I linked to above had said something along the lines of: “You should be aware the courts have ruled that menorahs may be displayed in schools on the grounds that they are secular symbols. We believe this ruling is misguided because they are clearly religious symbols. Therefore we are campaigning to have this ruling overturned and would recommend schools do not display menorahs” — then fair enough. It doesn’t. Instead it says: “For instance, on a board filled during the winter months with images of snowflakes, candles and evergreen trees, it might be appropriate to add images of Santa Claus and even a Chanukah menorah because the overall message is clearly a celebration of the season, not the promotion of a religious point of view. However, a nativity scene, crucifix or other undeniably religious symbols are not appropriate for a public school display”

Yes, people everywhere have been voting to waive and permanently reject their right to vote. Also, Saudi Arabia decided for no particular reason to convert to Catholicism (unsurprisingly, nothing else about the country has changed), the rest of the Muslim world will no doubt follow along shortly, and the Patriarch of Constantinople has come crawling on his knees to the Pope and saying that the Great Schism was wrong and the Pope is too in charge of all the Christians. And I hear that a Catholic engineer invented a perpetual motion machine. The Jews remain stubborn, but a few pogroms and a new crusade should settle their hash.

How about we talk about this universe, instead of Catholic fantaasyland?

Wait till you see what we’ve got in store for the atheists.

I hope it’s at least novel. Crematoria have so been done to death.

The ADL are quick to pounce on perceived violations of church-state separation, so we may assume they endorse this ruling in favour of menorahs in schools because they don’t condemn it.

An argument from silence, Pilt? Really?

So we may assume that since the Church does not condemn the practice of setting people on fire for being religious dissidents, the Church must therefore endorse said practice?

Yes, people everywhere have been voting to waive and permanently reject their right to vote.

They would do that in a flash if they thought it would bring security and stability. Just wait until the panem et circenses dry up.

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy.”

Also, Saudi Arabia decided for no particular reason to convert to Catholicism (unsurprisingly, nothing else about the country has changed), the rest of the Muslim world will no doubt follow along shortly, and the Patriarch of Constantinople has come crawling on his knees to the Pope and saying that the Great Schism was wrong and the Pope is too in charge of all the Christians. And I hear that a Catholic engineer invented a perpetual motion machine.

Meh. Political Catholicism may have one or two cards left to play, and I’d wager Islam will turn out to be a paper tiger, but the final outcome is not in doubt. As Tolkien said: “I am a Christian, and indeed a Roman Catholic, so that I do not expect ‘history’ to be anything but a ‘long defeat’.” Only progressives could be so irredeemably vulgar as to desire the ignominy of being on the winning side.

The Jews remain stubborn, but a few pogroms and a new crusade should settle their hash.

According to one 19th-century Catholic seer, the Jews will not convert until the apostasy of the Gentiles has left the Church broken, crushed and universally despised. How like God that would be.

How about we talk about this universe, instead of Catholic fantaasyland?

If you have a taste for fantasy, check this out. Everything except the swastika!

Wait till you see what we’ve got in store for the atheists.

I hope it’s at least novel. Crematoria have so been done to death.

Actually it’s out of our hands. God is already punishing the atheists as He punishes all His enemies — by giving them exactly what they want.

So we may assume that since the Church does not condemn the practice of setting people on fire for being religious dissidents, the Church must therefore endorse said practice?

You might very well think that; I couldn’t possibly comment. I will say your moral outrage would be more convincing had not numberless hecatombs been offered to make the world safe for liberty, equality and democracy.

They would do that in a flash if they thought it would bring security and stability.

Which you know because you can read the minds of everyone in every democracy everywhere?

Just wait until the panem et circenses dry up.

So… even if this were true, democracy would not destroy itself, but rather, putative food/economic crises would putatively destroy democratic governments, as they have destroyed many regimes of differing types of governments.

You’re not too good at the whole historical analysis thing, are you?

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy.”

Why should I believe this sloppy and ill-reasoned simplistic fearmongering?

Hey, how about we reword it?

“A monarchy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the ruling class discovers it can reward itself largesse out of the public treasury. After that, the ruling class always supports the ruler promising the most benefits with the result the monarchy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a revolutionary government, then a democracy.”

As Tolkien said: “I am a Christian, and indeed a Roman Catholic, so that I do not expect ‘history’ to be anything but a ‘long defeat’.”

I thought you weren’t a fan of Tolkien.

Only progressives could be so irredeemably vulgar as to desire the ignominy of being on the winning side.

?????

So why aren’t you a pagan? Or even dead?

And I guess you’re calling the Roman Catholic Church progressive and irredeemably vulgar?

According to one 19th-century Catholic seerfabulist, the Jews will not convert until the apostasy of the Gentiles has left the Church broken, crushed and universally despised.

FTFY.

Also, I note that your wording is amusingly ambiguous. Some terms can refer to either undergoing a rite, or officiating at a rite.

POPE PIUS THE LAST: Oh, woe, woe is us. Rabbi, the Church is reduced to myself, and these nine cardinals. No other Catholic remains, because apostasy has reduced us to this wretched state. The church is broken, crushed, and universally despised. What can we do?

RABBI: Well, when the Jews were broken, crushed, and universally despised, they gathered together and wrote the Mishna. Then they wrote the Talmud.

POPE PIUS THE LAST: Oh. Can we, um, use your Mishna and Talmud?

RABBI: Sure. But, listen, if you don’t have any strong objection to minor genital mutilation and some dietary and behavioral restrictions, you can just become Jewish. You get the Mishna, the Talmud, the Mishna Torah, the Halacha, the whole shebang. All you need to trade in is your so-called “New Testament”, which isn’t working for you anyway. Such a deal! And you’ve already got a minyan here!

POPE PIUS THE LAST: Well… I guess you can convert us…

How like God that would be.

Because God is just whacky like that, right?

If you have a taste for fantasy, check this out. Everything except the swastika!

. . . Nazism was a religion?

God is already punishing the atheists as He punishes all His enemies — by giving them exactly what they want.

“Oh Lord, make your fans ridiculous.”

Or for that matter:

“Oh Lord, make the universe look like you never existed, and then stop existing.”

You might very well think that; I couldn’t possibly comment.

Cat got your fingers?

I will say your moral outrage would be more convincing had not numberless hecatombs been offered to make the world safe for liberty, equality and democracy.

Your pathetic tu quoque might not be so pathetic if I didn’t know you are bang in favor of numberless hecatombs when offered for Catholic dominion.

even if this were true, democracy would not destroy itself, but rather, putative food/economic crises would putatively destroy democratic governments, as they have destroyed many regimes of differing types of governments.

One may ask whether modern democracy is peculiarly prone to crises and ill-suited to weather them.Compare and contrast.

Hey, how about we reword it?

“A monarchy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the ruling class discovers it can reward itself largesse out of the public treasury. After that, the ruling class always supports the ruler promising the most benefits with the result the monarchy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a revolutionary government, then a democracy.”

Granted there will be a ruling class under a monarchy (as there is in any form of government including democracy), I don’t see why it follows that a monarchical system of government will allow this ruling class to enrich itself from the public treasury. To be sure, a weak king might allow the aristocracy to do so; or a tyrannical king might choose to enrich himself at everyone else’s expense. In such cases, we can say they are bad kings because they have failed to act as a king should, failed to perform the function of a king. When the people is sovereign, there is no outside standard by which the people’s will may be judged. “We have it in our power to begin the world over again.”

Ha ha ha!

Not all that have fallen are vanquished;
a king may yet be without crown,
A blade that was broken be brandished;
and towers that were strong may fall down.

Ah, no more Eurabia/United Caliphate fearmongering?

I’m taking the long view. I believe Islam is a real and present danger (even if the neocons say it is) but it’s very much Smaug rather than Sauron.

I thought you weren’t a fan of Tolkien.

I find his books largely unreadable but dig his Weltanschauung.

And I guess you’re calling the Roman Catholic Church progressive and irredeemably vulgar?

The Church is on the winning side in one sense, but the final victory will owe nothing to her own efforts or any interplay of earthly forces. The top-hatted Devil, cackling and twirling his moustaches, has tied hapless Ecclesia to the railway tracks … a giant locomotive with Novus Ordo Seclorum on its nameplate bears down hissing and shrieking on the damsel in distress …

I note that your wording is amusingly ambiguous.

The perception underlying your amusement is keen. ”Like Rebecca, the mother of Esau and Jacob, the world has two nations jostling in its womb which give it no rest. … There are lesser international forces in the world, economic, political and religious, such as the powerful Anglo-American establishment, the Communist Internationale or Islam, but sooner or later men must polarize around one or the other of the two giants which override them all: Judaism or the Church. These two cannot be dissolved, re-organized, ignored or dismissed, for no man has any power over them. They are the selfsame theological enmities which God Himself set in opposition the day Our Lord asked that divisive question, ’What think you of Christ? Whose son is He?’ Their replies will never coincide until one capitulates to the other, for only one is the true Israel.”

Because God is just whacky like that, right?

Well we know God has a dry sense of humour (Genesis 3:22).

. . . Nazism was a religion?

Isn’t that a standard feint you chaps employ to maintain the pretence that certain totalitarian ideologues of last century were No True Atheists? Look again at the symbols making up that Eurostar.

“Oh Lord, make the universe look like you never existed, and then stop existing.”

This is what you want. This is what you get.

(BTW ever read any Gene Wolfe?)

Your pathetic tu quoque might not be so pathetic if I didn’t know you are bang in favor of numberless hecatombs when offered for Catholic dominion.

I don’t know how you know that, but since we’re playing tu quoque … Do you mortify your flesh every night in reparation, weeping for the sins committed in the name of liberty? Or do you shrug philosophically along with the sea-green incorruptible who supposedly said ”on ne peut pas faire d’omelette sans casser des oeufs”? Or do you cheer the bloodshed as a necessary and admirable refreshment for the tree of liberty? Liberty is your god and, as EM Cioran remarked, a god whose followers aren’t prepared to kill in his name is dead indeed.