I don't see what could be better than looking at how past URM candidates have performed on a website like lawschoolnumbers.

Is it because he's AA as opposed to another kind of URM?

I'm very thankful to those who have provided input on my own URM chances, and so all I'm trying to do is help others

Edit: for more information, here's a graph of URM applicants at Harvard, with the OP's scores in blue:

And here's one for Stanford:

And here's one for Yale:

Based upon the graphs - and the information they provide is, of course, limited in its usefulness (you'll notice in some spots better numbers seem to decrease your chances!) - you're in a kind of transition zone for both Stanford and Harvard. I'd imagine this probably means that a lot will ride on your PS and recommendations.

But as others have mentioned, I'm not an expert. I'm just trying to help out in any way that I can. I hope you find this information helpful.

Last edited by LSATSCORES2012 on Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:38 pm, edited 4 times in total.

So, I was curious about this - what kinds of different boosts do different URM's get?

It looks like you guys are right. I made a script that would check LSN for people who both self identify as URM and, under race, list something containing "aa", "blk", "black", or "african". Then I ran the graphs. Here's what we get.

Harvard:

Stanford:

Yale:

It looks like you have a good shot at Harvard (70%) and a reasonable shot at Stanford (53%). Yale's still a reach (16%) but, hey, why not throw in an app?

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:In at H, very likely S, and solid chance at Y.

People, this guy is considered one of the top AA male URM candidates. If you aren't too knowledgeable about URM admissions, may I suggest you refrain from giving "advice".

lol. This post is pure ironic gold.

As a mod of TLS and someone who had a very successful LS admissions cycle, I've witnessed three URM cycles and helped many candidates along the way. I know what I'm talking about, buddy. Don't get it twisted.

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:In at H, very likely S, and solid chance at Y.

People, this guy is considered one of the top AA male URM candidates. If you aren't too knowledgeable about URM admissions, may I suggest you refrain from giving "advice".

lol. This post is pure ironic gold.

As a mod of TLS and someone who had a very successful LS admissions cycle, I've witnessed three URM cycles and helped many candidates along the way. I know what I'm talking about, buddy. Don't get it twisted.

Congrats? Anyone who says someone with the OP's numbers has a "solid" chance at Yale doesn't know what they are talking about with respect to Yale.

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:As a mod of TLS and someone who had a very successful LS admissions cycle, I've witnessed three URM cycles and helped many candidates along the way. I know what I'm talking about, buddy. Don't get it twisted.

Though he might meet the criteria to be “considered.” there would seemingly be a number of other applicants with a high GPA and a notably higher LSAT. Just sayin’. . .

Other: Since you are a mod and I am new to TLS. I often see the term “this” and “hth”. . .what does it mean? Thx.

TheProsecutor wrote:Congrats? Anyone who says someone with the OP's numbers has a "solid" chance at Yale doesn't know what they are talking about with respect to Yale.

Pate wrote:Though he might meet the criteria to be “considered.” there would seemingly be a number of other applicants with a high GPA and a notably higher LSAT. Just sayin’. . .

Other: Since you are a mod and I am new to TLS. I often see the term “this” and “hth”. . .what does it mean? Thx.

A URM with those numbers has a solid chance at Yale. Did I say that Yale was a definite yes? No. Did I say that Yale was a likely? No. I said a solid chance meaning that he should definitely apply because he is competitive at Yale. Of course, NO ONE is a lock at Yale, but as a URM candidate with those numbers he is competitive. It's irrelevant if you think otherwise; OP should definitely apply to Yale. You saying that he only has an outside chance is false, and may discourage him from applying. I'm here to mitigate any hesitation. OP, blanket the entire T14 including Yale.

Pate = "This" after a quote means that you agree with what was quoted; you want to reiterate or further elaborate on that text.

"Hth" = Hope this helps. Can be used sincerely or sarcastically. Usually the latter on TLS.

TheProsecutor wrote:Congrats? Anyone who says someone with the OP's numbers has a "solid" chance at Yale doesn't know what they are talking about with respect to Yale.

Pate wrote:Though he might meet the criteria to be “considered.” there would seemingly be a number of other applicants with a high GPA and a notably higher LSAT. Just sayin’. . .

Other: Since you are a mod and I am new to TLS. I often see the term “this” and “hth”. . .what does it mean? Thx.

A URM with those numbers has a solid chance at Yale. Did I say that Yale was a definite yes? No. Did I say that Yale was a likely? No. I said a solid chance meaning that he should definitely apply because he is competitive at Yale. Of course, NO ONE is a lock at Yale, but as a URM candidate with those numbers he is competitive. It's irrelevant if you think otherwise; OP should definitely apply to Yale. You saying that he only has an outside chance is false, and may discourage him from applying. I'm here to mitigate any hesitation. OP, blanket the entire T14 including Yale.

Pate = "This" after a quote means that you agree with what was quoted; you want to reiterate or further elaborate on that text.

"Hth" = Hope this helps. Can be used sincerely or sarcastically. Usually the latter on TLS.

A URM with those numbers does not have a solid chance at Yale; a person with perfect numbers has a "solid" chance at Yale. The idea that you gave him the advice because he is competitive is ridiculous. First, he isn't competitive. Talk to anyone who went to YLS and they'll tell you that a guy with those numbers is not getting in unless he/she has done amazing other things. And by the way, the people at YLS with those numbers tend to be non-URMs. Second, if being competitive means having a shot (which is what it must mean since the OP's chances at Yale are slight) then you would say that almost any candidate would be "competitive" at any school since they'd have a chance at getting in.

While you somewhat bizarrely claim that my telling the OP he has an outside chance at YLS would discourage him from applying, I worry that your overestimation of his chances will get his hopes up of actually getting into the best law school in the country. Notwithstanding the fact that I explicitly told the OP to apply to Yale, I also wanted to give him accurate advice on his chances. Your semantic flip flopping between "solid" "competitive" and the like is amusing, but anyone with a brain knows you were trying to tell the OP he has a good shot at Yale. He does not. He should not get his hopes up unless he has something unbelievable on his resume.

Finally, your advice even in this post is laughable. The OP should definitely NOT blanket the entire top 14. As almost everyone agrees, he is looking good at Stanford and Harvard. The OP should apply to HYSCCN and then only apply to other top 14 schools as he can afford and or wants to attend. The idea that he should "blanket" the top 14 is a waste of money and should be reserved for candidate in a more dubious position than the OP.

Responding to you is not for sport. I'm responding to you because you decided to call out people for not knowing what they were talking about when in fact you were wrong. I'm also responding because there are a lot of lurkers on this forum and many of them have similar questions to the OP. The facts and advice are important to these candidates - and while I think everyone is appreciative of the bulk of your advice and support - the fact is here you got it wrong.

TheProsecutor wrote:Congrats? Anyone who says someone with the OP's numbers has a "solid" chance at Yale doesn't know what they are talking about with respect to Yale.

Pate wrote:Though he might meet the criteria to be “considered.” there would seemingly be a number of other applicants with a high GPA and a notably higher LSAT. Just sayin’. . .

Other: Since you are a mod and I am new to TLS. I often see the term “this” and “hth”. . .what does it mean? Thx.

A URM with those numbers has a solid chance at Yale. Did I say that Yale was a definite yes? No. Did I say that Yale was a likely? No. I said a solid chance meaning that he should definitely apply because he is competitive at Yale. Of course, NO ONE is a lock at Yale, but as a URM candidate with those numbers he is competitive. It's irrelevant if you think otherwise; OP should definitely apply to Yale. You saying that he only has an outside chance is false, and may discourage him from applying. I'm here to mitigate any hesitation. OP, blanket the entire T14 including Yale.

Pate = "This" after a quote means that you agree with what was quoted; you want to reiterate or further elaborate on that text.

"Hth" = Hope this helps. Can be used sincerely or sarcastically. Usually the latter on TLS.

A URM with those numbers does not have a solid chance at Yale; a person with perfect numbers has a "solid" chance at Yale. The idea that you gave him the advice because he is competitive is ridiculous. First, he isn't competitive. Talk to anyone who went to YLS and they'll tell you that a guy with those numbers is not getting in unless he/she has done amazing other things. And by the way, the people at YLS with those numbers tend to be non-URMs. Second, if being competitive means having a shot (which is what it must mean since the OP's chances at Yale are slight) then you would say that almost any candidate would be "competitive" at any school since they'd have a chance at getting in.

While you somewhat bizarrely claim that my telling the OP he has an outside chance at YLS would discourage him from applying, I worry that your overestimation of his chances will get his hopes up of actually getting into the best law school in the country. Notwithstanding the fact that I explicitly told the OP to apply to Yale, I also wanted to give him accurate advice on his chances. Your semantic flip flopping between "solid" "competitive" and the like is amusing, but anyone with a brain knows you were trying to tell the OP he has a good shot at Yale. He does not. He should not get his hopes up unless he has something unbelievable on his resume.

Finally, your advice even in this post is laughable. The OP should definitely NOT blanket the entire top 14. As almost everyone agrees, he is looking good at Stanford and Harvard. The OP should apply to HYSCCN and then only apply to other top 14 schools as he can afford and or wants to attend. The idea that he should "blanket" the top 14 is a waste of money and should be reserved for candidate in a more dubious position than the OP.

Responding to you is not for sport. I'm responding to you because you decided to call out people for not knowing what they were talking about when in fact you were wrong. I'm also responding because there are a lot of lurkers on this forum and many of them have similar questions to the OP. The facts and advice are important to these candidates - and while I think everyone is appreciative of the bulk of your advice and support - the fact is here you got it wrong.

No. Just no.

I really do not need to justify my years of experience to a stranger on the internet. Feel free to bombastically opine on this topic all you want because it seems to get you off. It will simply not change what I've observed and personally been through as a URM candidate.

How the hell is telling him that blanketing the T14 poor advice? As a URM candidate with those numbers, he can easily get fee waivers from all schools (save HYS because they don't offer usual fee waivers) by simply waiting on the email inviting him to apply or emailing the admissions office and asking for one. It's a very effective strategy because he's such a top candidate. So it being a waste of money is not even relevant. Also, OP is more than likely to be offered A LOT of money from the T7-T14 which he can leverage to negotiate and increase his scholarships at higher ranked schools even if he does not want to attend such institutions. How does this adversely affect OP? Finally, do you know the OP personally? Do you know if he has some family commitment that may preclude him from attending schools in certain states or maybe a full scholarship at a lower ranked school will be more valuable to him because he may have a TON of undergraduate debt to think about and he wants to hedge his risks while still putting himself in a position of obtaining a great legal job? What if his circumstances change from here to the start of his cycle, or further on, and he now has limited options because he didn't apply and acquire scholarships from all the schools he could have? Stop acting like you know it all.

My job on TLS is to help law school candidates, first and foremost, and quite honestly, I've contended with you before on similar frivolous topics. I have very little tolerance for those who assert themselves with false certainty in the URM forum. Don't tell me about how URMs have questions about the admissions process when I literally get PMs everyday from URM candidates asking for advice. I am always the first to admit when I get something wrong, WHEN I actually get it wrong. Just because you disagree, doesn't mean I got it wrong, honey; it just means you disagree, and again, I'm not about to debate your opinion with you.

TL;DR = If anything, we agree that OP should apply to Yale. Everything else = your pendaticism is exhausting.

This is my last response to you because you continuously fall back on "I'm a mod and I help people." So what? Nobody cares. We're talking about the specific advice in this thread. Not the presumably good advice you've given to everyone else.

You advised the OP to blanket the top 14 without regard to fee waivers. I got much MUCH higher numbers than the OP and didn't get fee waivers to the entire top 14. So the idea that he'll get fee waivers everywhere is probably false. Your next idea was for him to use scholarship offers to negotiate for higher money between the schools. Why? What purpose would that serve? He's going to get into HYSCCN and none of those schools is going to increase his aid based on a scholarship he got to Virginia, for example.

Here was my advice: The OP should instead apply to top schools (HYSCCN). Beyond that, he should figure out where he would be comfortable going to school for 3 years and apply to those top 14 schools (Which would include those he might feel compelled to attend for family reasons). Beyond that, he should apply to more top 14 he can afford (which necessarily includes fee waivers he gets, I thought a person of your intelligence would understand that). Anything more is a waste of time. I think you know this, honestly.

Why? Because if he only applies to the schools he wants in the bottom top 14, he can use his HYSCCN admissions as a tool to negotiate more aid from a bottom top 14. This is more more persuasive than comparing scholarships among peer schools anyways. So the idea that he would have to blanket the entire top 14 to negotiate for more money among the bottom t14 is wasteful. As for a change in circumstances, that's irrelevant because no one is advising him not to apply to more than just HYSCCN, but to simply be picky about where he applies because his numbers are so good.

I don't act like I know it all, but like you I help LOTS of people get into top schools and I spend a good portion of my professional life helping AA get into top law schools. And please remember, the only reason I even initiated dialogue is because you tried to call out others for not knowing what they were talking about when your "solid" chance at Yale was the only absolutely wrong thing said in the thread. That post still gets me rolling. So thanks for that.

TheProsecutor wrote:You advised the OP to blanket the top 14 without regard to fee waivers. I got much MUCH higher numbers than the OP and didn't get fee waivers to the entire top 14. So the idea that he'll get fee waivers everywhere is probably false. Your next idea was for him to use scholarship offers to negotiate for higher money between the schools. Why? What purpose would that serve? He's going to get into HYSCCN and none of those schools is going to increase his aid based on a scholarship he got to Virginia, for example.

Oh so your experience is representative of the entire URM pool, the way LS admissions works? Because it didn't happen for you, it probably will not happen for anyone else? How is your one anecdote representative of the way things work? Read my post again; I also said that he can email schools to ask for fee waivers. It's an effective strategy that has worked for many people in the past. Saying that because you did not get fee waivers from CCN on down to rest of T14 proves absolutely nothing. I LOVE how you equate your experience with ABSOLUTE FACT; false certainty at its very best. Whereas I base my advice on the numbers and results of over three past cycles of URM admissions. I already told you the purpose of applying to T14, and wait for it....

TheProsecutor wrote:Here was my advice: The OP should instead apply to top schools (HYSCCN). Beyond that, he should figure out where he would be comfortable going to school for 3 years and apply to those top 14 schools (Which would include those he might feel compelled to attend for family reasons).

Wait, you realized you just contradicted yourself right? So he shouldn't apply to the Top "ranked" 14 schools, but rather other 14 schools because of family reasons and other factors? I wonder who thought of these factors before you did. Are you really trying to undermine me with what I JUST told you? LOLOK.

TheProsecutor wrote: Beyond that, he should apply to more top 14 he can afford (which necessarily includes fee waivers he gets, I thought a person of your intelligence would understand that). Anything more is a waste of time.

You know you're not making any sense right? Still undermining me with factors I brought up. Anyone can read my last post and see that you're basically just spouting what I said back to me. Of course I understand, I was the one who said fee waivers should help him, and I still believe, based on what I've seen over three URM cycles, and unlike you, not just based on my personal experience, he has the numbers to email schools for fee waivers and be successful.

TheProsecutor wrote:Why? Because if he only applies to the schools he wants in the bottom top 14, he can use his HYSCCN admissions as a tool to negotiate more aid from a bottom top 14. This is more more persuasive than comparing scholarships among peer schools anyways. So the idea that he would have to blanket the entire top 14 to negotiate for more money among the bottom t14 is wasteful. As for a change in circumstances, that's irrelevant because no one is advising him not to apply to more than just HYSCCN, but to simply be picky about where he applies because his numbers are so good.

Again, are you really trying to use my points about negotiating against me? I feel like you're grasping for straws here. When did I ever say he should only apply to schools he wants in the bottom top 14? I'm genuinely confused. You're literally completely misconstruing what I said and arguing against that.

TheProsecutor wrote: And please remember, the only reason I even initiated dialogue is because you tried to call out others for not knowing what they were talking about when your "solid" chance at Yale was the only absolutely wrong thing said in the thread. That post still gets me rolling. So thanks for that.

Call out others? I was simply saying that there was some misinformation ITT, which there was, and I addressed it accordingly. I was doing my job. If you have a problem with that, I really, really don't care. And finally, about me being wrong part, you must have overlooked this:

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote: Just because you disagree, doesn't mean I got it wrong, honey; it just means you disagree, and again, I'm not about to debate your opinion with you.

You are beyond one of the most unnecessarily contentious posters I've encountered in a long time because quite honestly our views about OPs chances are more convergent than divergent at this point. But you like to pick, and, pick, and pick, at the little things that in the end, are not incredibly important. I stand by what I said.

At this point, we're both too busy and intelligent to go back and forth. I can go line by line and respond to you, but at this point it has no usefulness to the OP.

He should apply to HYSCCN. Beyond that, he can decide whether to "blanket" the top 14 or apply selectively beyond HYSCCN.

lulz.

Feel free to PM me to continue this discussion if you really want to go line by line and respond to me. You seemed so sure of your convictions and I would hate for you to let a single thread prevent you from sharing your views!

ETA: OP, I wish you luck on your cycle. You're going to have a GREAT one!