/m/steroids

Reader Comments and Retorts

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Pettite seems to have got his reputation back, more or less. I think the real lessons here are 1) an admission only has a chance of working if it's immediate and you're well liked, 2) don't get caught a second time, 3) if people don't like you, then you're screwed either way.

He had a good reputation until the minute he signed that first enormous contract with Texas.

This. He was the golden child of Seattle, the heir apparent to The Kid, until he had the audacity to take the Rangers' money. At that point the narrative changed and he went from beloved young superstar to "greedy #######."

ARod's an odd duck by all accounts. But he's absolutely no worse or better than someone like Derek Jeter, who is fawned over.

Agreed. ARod is a self-obsessed athlete who's been pampered his entire life and believes whatever weird new-aged schtick the con-men are selling him this month. He's lived a cloistered life where he's been a demigod since before high school. He was a superstar in the majors as a 19 year old. His perspective and sense of self is probably uniquely and categorically ###### up. But what comes across more than anything else, when I see and read about his on-going PR debacles, is the naivete.

Jeter makes me think of Ted Bundy. He smiles when he's supposed to smile. He says what he's supposed to say. He hits all the cues in perfect time. And beneath the shell, he's an empty soulless robot who's thinking about killing you.

He had a good reputation until the minute he signed that first enormous contract with Texas.

A-Rod's reputation in general has never really recovered since then, but his reputation on BTF is much more of a mixed bag. His reputation here easily survived the Texas contract, which was defended as a justifiable move on A-Rod's part and a smart deal for the Rangers. But then when he wound up with the Evil Empire, the Red Sox-centric and anti-anything Yankee nature of BTF started with the snarkfest that's never really ended, and has been magnified by (a) the wrist-slap, (b) the 2007 contract, (c) the backlash over baseball's clear wish to have a "clean" player break Bonds's record, (d) the failed drug test, and (e through z) the countless gossip-driven stories concerning this celebrity or that girl in the stands or this statement to the media or that whatever. At some point the trashing of A-Rod just assumed a momentum of its own. He's the Lenore Helmsley of BTF.

There are really only three times A-Rod ever got (or gets) defended here.

When people (translation: the MSM) bring up his many playoff el foldos since 2003, the saber crowd fires back with 2000, 2009 and 2004 prior to game 5, and writes everything else off as a small sample size. File this one under "Defense of Certain Types of Favored Statistics".

When writers say that they'll never vote for him for the HoF, the anti-anti-steroids crowd goes after them with both barrels, for reasons that have little to do with A-Rod and everything to do with their views on steroids and the HoF. File this one under "I Just Hate the ####### Media".

And whenever the MSM talks about Derek Jeter's character, we'll be reminded about how Jeter refused to switch positions when A-Rod came to the Yankees. File this one in the "Lesser of Two Evils" category.

I can only wonder how much of the nonstop BTF snark and bile would have lasted if in 2004 the Rangers had traded A-Rod to Boston. Hard to say for sure, but I don't think it'd be half as much as it is today.

When people (translation: the MSM) bring up his many playoff el foldos since 2003, the saber crowd fires back with 2000, 2009 and 2004 prior to game 5, and writes everything else off as a small sample size. File this one under "Defense of Certain Types of Favored Statistics".

People here are perfectly willing to admit that A-Rod underachieves in the playoffs. The success are a counter to the point that he can't possibly ever succeed in the playoffs (even though he already has at times).

Generally going to the Yankees for the cash and to get a title makes people angry it seems. Clemens shifted from star to bum in Toronto with that, Damon & Boggs in Boston, I'm sure many others. One does wonder how different things might have been had Clemens been traded to Houston instead of NY, would the PED story have come out? Would A-Rod in Boston be more popular or would his opt-out/sign a bigger deal led to more anger, especially if it led to him going from Boston to NY?

I think the point about never getting your rep back once tarnished is a good point though. What else could Clemens have done short of being able to produce tests from 1998 on showing him to be clean? As soon as one person came out and said 'he did it' that was it for him. It'll be interesting to see what happens when A-Rod and Pettite get to the HOF vote stage - logically both should do no better than Bonds/Clemens did with Pettite knocked off after the first ballot (based on the steroid discount and the lower level he'd start from normally). Still, it is a long time until that day comes (at least 5 years) and who knows what will have changed by then.

Generally going to the Yankees for the cash and to get a title makes people angry it seems.

He was traded to the Yankees, he didn't go for "the cash". He was getting that money either way. And this ignores the fact that he was, prior to going to the Yankees, willing to take a pay cut to facilitate a trade to Boston, but the MLBPA nixed the deal(for good reason).

If A-Rod had ended up in Boston and they'd immediately won the world series, he'd be a god.

And we'd be hearing "that's just A-Rod being A-Rod" until his OPS sank into the quicksand.

---------------------------------------------

People here are perfectly willing to admit that A-Rod underachieves in the playoffs. The success are a counter to the point that he can't possibly ever succeed in the playoffs (even though he already has at times).

But likewise, I haven't seen anyone in the MSM deny that 2009 existed, and most of the pushback here has been written when the media mentions that he's flopped in the great majority of playoff series that he's been involved in with the Yankees.

---------------------------------------------

I think the point about never getting your rep back once tarnished is a good point though.

The best way to get it back is to wait and win. See Ray Lewis. Unfortunately, as Hardin points out, mere lack of evidence about a player's PED use isn't sufficient to slow down the piling on.

True, but to be fair and honest, the run-up to that deal was replete with ARod clearly trying to get himself traded to a contender. He wasn't bolting for the cash. As you said, he had that already. He was bolting for the ring, which made people dislike him even more, because a good deal of the public thought "if you're going to make a quarter billion per year, you should have someone build a champion around you, not go looking to be second fiddle to his Jeterness or Big Papi."

Generally going to the Yankees for the cash and to get a title makes people angry it seems.

He was traded to the Yankees, he didn't go for "the cash". He was getting that money either way. And this ignores the fact that he was, prior to going to the Yankees, willing to take a pay cut to facilitate a trade to Boston, but the MLBPA nixed the deal(for good reason).

All of which is true, but the bottom line around here is that he wound up with the Yankees. Red Sox fans are a very touchy lot when it comes to things like that.

EDIT: Add to that the point that Sam makes about wanting to get his rings the easy way.

because a good deal of the public thought "if you're going to make a quarter billion per year, you should have someone build a champion around you, not go looking to be second fiddle to his Jeterness or Big Papi."

He tried that in Texas. The result was him getting blamed for the rest of his team being overpaid and terrible.

Pettite seems to have got his reputation back, more or less. I think the real lessons here are 1) an admission only has a chance of working if it's immediate and you're well liked, 2) don't get caught a second time, 3) if people don't like you, then you're screwed either way.

Re 2), Pettitte was caught a second time before the ink had dried on his first confession. Except that the hilarious part was that his "second time" came before the first confession, which was a pack of lies.

When people (translation: the MSM) bring up his many playoff el foldos since 2003, the saber crowd fires back with 2000, 2009 and 2004 prior to game 5, and writes everything else off as a small sample size. File this one under "Defense of Certain Types of Favored Statistics".

When writers say that they'll never vote for him for the HoF, the anti-anti-steroids crowd goes after them with both barrels, for reasons that have little to do with A-Rod and everything to do with their views on steroids and the HoF. File this one under "I Just Hate the ####### Media".

And whenever the MSM talks about Derek Jeter's character, we'll be reminded about how Jeter refused to switch positions when A-Rod came to the Yankees. File this one in the "Lesser of Two Evils" category.

What else could Clemens have done short of being able to produce tests from 1998 on showing him to be clean?

The only thing that could actually have helped Clemens was a confession by McNamee that McNamee had lied about the central claim. Clemens tried to get that out of him, during that awkward recorded phone conversation, but McNamee - no doubt represented by lawyers by that point - didn't bite.

That was really Clemens's only realistic chance at a game changer. And he tried.

Otherwise, he did everything he could possibly have done, everything that unreasonable, dishonest people demanded that he do. But that didn't help him, because unreasonable, dishonest people are unreasonable and dishonest and so the lesson here is that you shouldn't try to satisfy them, particularly when it involves putting your liberty at stake.

Dishonest and unreasonable people with nothing to lose demanded that Clemens play a high stakes game that was rigged against him by Congress and the feds. Clemens played the game, suffered the consequences (an indictment after walking into a perjury trap) and won, but it didn't matter.

These are the people, Andy, who you are in bed with when it comes to HOF voting.

Pettite seems to have got his reputation back, more or less. I think the real lessons here are 1) an admission only has a chance of working if it's immediate and you're well liked, 2) don't get caught a second time, 3) if people don't like you, then you're screwed either way.

Re 2), Pettitte was caught a second time before the ink had dried on his first confession. Except that the hilarious part was that his "second time" came before the first confession, which was a pack of lies.

Nobody cared, if they even noticed.

DINGDINGDING

absolutely nobody gives a single solitary damm that pettitte not only used but lied THREE times

and the clemens saga has proved only that the public and the media has already decided who is Good and who is EVULLL and no amount of anything is gonna change their minds.

i think that is why perry mason always got the guilty person to stand up and confess in court, because that really IS the only thing that people will believe. once you are accused, no amount of alibi or anything else gonna convince people.

as for arod - his reputation went straight to heck the minnit he signed that contract with the rangers. it was absolutely nothing but horrible greedy disloyal dirtball. he "should" have stayed in seattle and taken whatever they offered. actually, played for FREE like they did BITGOD.

he was dissed here in texas the minnit he got here because it was OBVIOUS he didn't want to be anywheres near texas and because he was ALREADY disliked - slimy greedy creep (not a slimy greedy creep like JR ewing a True Texan, mind) so when the rangers didn't immediately win the WS, ARod got ALL the blame. and he made it very VERY obvious he wanted to get the heck out of texas ASAP and did his damndest to get traded without coming out and demanding a trade - all that made him look even worse.

he's sort of like barry lamar - only barry lamar never tried to use media to have an image and arod certainly did and because he's such a crappy actor all he got were razzie awards. why His Jeteriness gets all that worship i do NOT know

Ray, I didn't say I was "upset" about any of those three points you just quoted, although I do wish that A-Rod would stop letting those small sample sizes show up at the wrong time of the year more often than not.

---------------------------------------------------

These are the people, Andy, who you are in bed with when it comes to HOF voting.

And I'm in bed with you on Clemens, Obama was in bed with the Heritage Foundation on health insurance mandates, and you're in bed with people a lot worse than that when it comes to many of your political views. That's just the way things be sometimes, and I'm not losing sleep over my creepy allies any more than you are.

---------------------------------------------------

[A-Rod] was dissed here in texas the minnit he got here because it was OBVIOUS he didn't want to be anywheres near texas

"The minnit he got here"? Really? In Texas? I'd like to see some evidence on that, Lisa. I'm aware of the trashing after the Rangers' record sunk in spite of his outstanding play, but I hadn't realized he was being dumped on by Rangers fans (as opposed to everyone else) when he signed the contract.

why His Jeteriness gets all that worship i do NOT know

HoF level players who keep their mouths shut about anything remotely controversial, who've never been accused of PED use, whose parents still show up to root for him on occasion, and who can flash a hand full of rings----yeah, it's tough to figure out why someone like that would get good press.

I don't think much of A-Rod's future as a player, but he's really helped Manny Machado out. Rodriguez is a very complicated guy.

A-Rod has a long history of being helpful and friendly to young players just starting their MLB careers, both in Texas and in NY. For all his faults, he genuinely seems to like baseball a lot, and he's apparently always eager to talk about the game and conditioning with other players. I think posts 9 & 10 above are mostly right; A-Rod's a weird guy whose unusual life and career have left him kind of messed up, but he's no villain.

A-Rod's a weird guy whose unusual life and career have left him kind of messed up, but he's no villain.

This.

Some people are just generally awkward, socially. Add to that some inner strife of some sort (like most people have) and an amazing amount of talent, pressure and media exposure and I can see how he's ended up where he is. It's awkwardness that he never could outgrow or come to terms with. The points made in #30 really speak to his true character. When he doesn't have the media in his face, he seems to spend at least some of his time trying to reach out and mentor younger players. We just do not hear about it as much as we do centaurs, PED's and hips.

It's awkwardness that he never could outgrow or come to terms with. The points made in #30 really speak to his true character. When he doesn't have the media in his face, he seems to spend at least some of his time trying to reach out and mentor younger players. We just do not hear about it as much as we do centaurs, PED's and hips.

ARod's a baseball savant. Put him on a field with a bat, a glove, and a healthy body and he's a force of nature. Everything is easy and perfect for him without so much as trying hard. When he excels "off the field" it's with mentoring other baseball players on things about how to play baseball. But outside of baseball? He's an introverted dork who is trying to build social relationships by doing calculus in his head. "People think I'm weird; I need to seem normal. Maybe if I dated Madonna?!"

You might make the case he's the second-best shortstop ever, or the second-best third baseman ever... you might make the case that he didn't play enough at either position to justify such a high ranking. You might make the case that, for a few peak seasons, he might --just might-- be the BEST ever at each position. You might.

Yes, he's one of the game's great ##########. You kind of wish he was a hard case like Bonds. We despise Bonds, but there's an element of respect for his "go-####-yourself" single-mindedness and mental strength. You get the feeling Bonds could do hard time in solitary confinement and he'd be just fine, whereas A-Rod would want the cockroaches and mice to like him. A-Rod just seems to be a #####, and if there's one thing we can't abide in our superstars, it's a #####. And yet... he plays hurt; he played every day until the wheels fell off; he played smart; he was better than everyone else. He seems like a nice guy. Maybe that's it... he tries to seem like a nice guy. He just wants to be liked. We hate guys who want to be liked.

And now we have the game-but-fragile, tough-but-brittle Kevin Youklis manning the hot corner. Youklis doesn’t care who likes him. A hard case. His OBP in 2012 was .336. And coming off a broken ankle, Jeter will now have as much range as a plug-in hybrid. I think we’re going to miss A-Rod.

when the rangers didn't immediately win the WS, ARod got ALL the blame

Well, the Rangers' owner at the time (wasn't that Tom Hicks?)really did about as many dumb things as he possibly could:

1)He way overbid on A-Rod to start with. Hadn't the Yankees just signed Jeter to a $190M contract? Steinbrenner made it clear he wasn't going to go any higher than $190-200M at most on A-Rod. There weren't a lot of teams in the derby to start with since the $$$ were so high. What the heck did Hicks go up to $250M for? I thought these rich guys were supposed to be smart businessmen. Hicks apparently was a lousy poker player.

2)After he signed A-Rod, he started b*tching almost immediately about how he had overpaid for A-Rod and now he didn't have enough $$$ left to build out the rest of the team around A-Rod (particularly his pitching staff). Funny thing, though - didn't he pay more to get Chan Ho(mer out of the)Park than the A's were paying for Barry Zito, Mark Mulder and Tim Hudson combined? Maybe he should have allocated some funds to get better scouting?

And now we have the game-but-fragile, tough-but-brittle Kevin Youklis manning the hot corner. Youklis doesn’t care who likes him. A hard case. His OBP in 2012 was .336. And coming off a broken ankle, Jeter will now have as much range as a plug-in hybrid. I think we’re going to miss A-Rod.

Agreed. In 2012, a healthy Derek Jeter appeared in 159 games while putting up his best offensive numbers since 2009 and was worth 2.1 bWAR. A-Rod appeared in 122 injury-plagued games, put up his worst offensive numbers since he became a MLB regular, and still managed to tally 2.0 bWAR. Yes he's grossly overpaid at this point, but even old and hurt and missing significant playing time, A-Rod was still productive.

[A-Rod] was dissed here in texas the minnit he got here because it was OBVIOUS he didn't want to be anywheres near texas

"The minnit he got here"? Really? In Texas? I'd like to see some evidence on that, Lisa. I'm aware of the trashing after the Rangers' record sunk in spite of his outstanding play, but I hadn't realized he was being dumped on by Rangers fans (as opposed to everyone else) when he signed the contract.

- actually, yeah
partly because 2 things happened right off

1 - arod is the exact opposite of francoeur with the media. when he first talked about coming to texas, first of all, you got the immediate impression that he had agreed to go wherever boras got him the most $$$ and when he found out it wasn't NY, he seemed like jacob getting screwed out of (hahaha) rachel. he gave some kind of talk about how he had talked with "mr hicks" about arranging the team to suit The Rod. whatever he actually said, it sure wasn't anything like - YEEEEEEE HAHHHHHHHHHHHH!

2 - hicks realized he had overbid by a hunnert meeeelyun bucks and immediately started a campaign to blame arod for it. it was bad the first year and a beeeelyun times worse the secnd year. couldn't no team get built because of arod's terrible contract.

arod didn't make any effort to make his Home in DFW or to seem like an Adopted Son like biggio and bagwell, both of em yankeees, did in houston.

you will notice that even when bagwell's contract was bloated at the end, when his shoulder became useless, that he was never blamed for the team's failures.

It's funny: I've never talked with either of them, but I like Derek Jeter instinctively, and AROD is my least favorite baseball star in terms of a knee-jerk personal reaction to his general vibe.

At the end of the day, though, I just want ballplayers to play their rear ends off, and both Jeter and AROD are overqualified on that score. They deserve their success and their money.

EDIT: helpful and friendly to young players just starting their MLB careers

You could see this happening with both Michael Young and Mark Teixeira, who have gone on to long careers of playing their own rear ends off. (I'd add Hank Blalock too, who was felled by injuries rather than by want of trying.) Whatever his problems with his own image, AROD has been a role model rather than a narcissist on the field.

interesting because the impression given about arod was that the young rangers didn't like him and he was always calling pitches and positioning everyone on the field like he was the manager or something

and yeah, jeter out francoeurs francoeur - some people just have this charisma/ability to make people like them or want them without any apparent effort. what a great guy/grrl

arod - well, in spite of all the coaching, he blunders like a 3 month mastiff puppy runnin on a linoleum floor. at least to The Public. maybe he's better in person, who knows

You kind of wish he was a hard case like Bonds. We despise Bonds, but there's an element of respect for his "go-####-yourself" single-mindedness and mental strength. You get the feeling Bonds could do hard time in solitary confinement and he'd be just fine, whereas A-Rod would want the cockroaches and mice to like him. A-Rod just seems to be a #####, and if there's one thing we can't abide in our superstars, it's a #####. And yet... he plays hurt; he played every day until the wheels fell off; he played smart; he was better than everyone else. He seems like a nice guy. Maybe that's it... he tries to seem like a nice guy. He just wants to be liked. We hate guys who want to be liked.

Makes me wonder, in an alternate universe, what would have happened if A-Rod arrived in NY and then said "I'm a better hitter than Jeter, a better baserunner and a MUCH better fielding shortstop. I'm the new shortstop and he can move to 3B. Get used to it. If you aren't in favor of this, then you aren't trying to help the Yankees become a better team and you're not welcome here."

Now that would have been the way Bonds would've handled it. It would have pissed off everybody on the team, but it would have helped the team win more games, which is what I thought they were supposed to be doing?

Of course, A-Rod just doesn't have the personality to do that. He has spent his whole life trying to please everybody and, as always happens when you try to do that, you wind up pleasing nobody.

Jeter makes me think of Ted Bundy. He smiles when he's supposed to smile. He says what he's supposed to say. He hits all the cues in perfect time. And beneath the shell, he's an empty soulless robot who's thinking about killing you.

Much as I agree completely with this assessment, I wonder if I'm colored by the laundry. If Jeter played on practically any other team in baseball, would we feel the same way?

Ehh, not really. Not that it detracts from the general 'been pampered' point, but the Rod hit mlb pitching at .232 at 19, which followed .204 at 18. Cups of coffee, no doubt; but not a superstar, at least between the lines at the park of the big club.

Makes me wonder, in an alternate universe, what would have happened if A-Rod arrived in NY and then said "I'm a better hitter than Jeter, a better baserunner and a MUCH better fielding shortstop. I'm the new shortstop and he can move to 3B. Get used to it. If you aren't in favor of this, then you aren't trying to help the Yankees become a better team and you're not welcome here."

Nothing would have happened. There's a world of difference between having the truth on your side and having the hand to do anything useful with it. Picking a fight with Jeter at that point would have done nothing but turn the media, fans AND his teammates against him from the very start. Granted he mostly wound up there anyway, at least with respect to the media and fans, but he bought a season of respite by backing down; I guess that's worth something.

Jeter makes me think of Ted Bundy. He smiles when he's supposed to smile. He says what he's supposed to say. He hits all the cues in perfect time. And beneath the shell, he's an empty soulless robot who's thinking about killing you.

Much as I agree completely with this assessment, I wonder if I'm colored by the laundry. If Jeter played on practically any other team in baseball, would we feel the same way?

The closest comparison to Jeter is probably Cal Ripken, who's also been called "selfish" and who also is as bland as a vanilla milkshake. If you vent against Cal to the same degree you vent against Jeter, then it's probably not just the laundry. But if Jeter had played for any team other than the Yankees, I think it's obvious he wouldn't have gotten the Fawnola colored ink he has, but he also wouldn't be one of BTF's favorite whipping boys. Bottom line to me is that he should be judged by what he's done on the field. If I want to be entertained beyond that, I'll start googling Goose Gossage or Joe Kehoskie.

the impression given about arod was that the young rangers didn't like him and he was always calling pitches and positioning everyone on the field like he was the manager or something

I'd imagine there's no love lost between AROD and Buck Showalter on the pitch-calling front :) As far as positioning infielders, that's usually a good thing for the senior member of an infield to do; other guys win praise for it. On his way out of town, AROD whined about having to play with "kids," but I've never heard the "kids" say anything bad about him. Young and Rodriguez in particular have a long history of complimenting each other when interviewed.

The closest comparison to Jeter is probably Cal Ripken, who's also been called "selfish" and who also is as bland as a vanilla milkshake. If you vent against Cal to the same degree you vent against Jeter, then it's probably not just the laundry.

I don't see them as very similar in personality at all. Ripken always struck me as just boring, while Jeter strikes me as calculated.

I think that if Jeter were not a Yankee, he would have been grossly underrated by traditional baseball fans. He'd probably be about as famous as Jeff Kent. That would probably make him one of the BTF favorites. Imagine Jeter as a career Pirate, getting maybe 100 fewer PA per year and hovering around 2800 career hits. We're probably worried that he might not make the HOF.

Then again, with a realistic assessment of his ability, he probably doesn't become the sort of guy that gives his one-night stands gift baskets.

The closest comparison to Jeter is probably Cal Ripken, who's also been called "selfish" and who also is as bland as a vanilla milkshake. If you vent against Cal to the same degree you vent against Jeter, then it's probably not just the laundry.

I don't see them as very similar in personality at all. Ripken always struck me as just boring, while Jeter strikes me as calculated.

If Derek Jeter's public personality isn't boring, I confess that I don't know the meaning of the word. And if you think that Cal Ripken's public image isn't every bit as carefully calculated as Jeter's, I think you're letting something other than reality influence you.

Look, they both utter nothing but platitudes whenever they're in front of a microphone. They both preach the virtues of Team First. Neither boasts of his individual accomplishments. They both get a certain amount of snarking (magnified on a site like this) for not offering to change positions, or for hurting their teams during slumps by not voluntarily benching themselves. Both of them are spoken of in the highest terms by their teammates, both for their skills and for their work ethic.

About the only real difference between them is that Cal's married and you hear stories around Baltimore about his marriage, while Jeter's single and you hear stories about gift baskets. Cal stayed apart from the team, but Cal also went out of his way to sign autographs when most players didn't have to. I'd like to think that this was just a spontaneous gesture on his part, but it was also a terrific long range investment.

You can pick apart this or that and try to magnify the differences between the two of them, but IMO it mostly comes down to the laundry. If you took the Yankee haters out of the anti-Jeter mix**, that'd reduce it by about 90%.

**A pretty good test of that would be their reaction to the time in 2004 when he dove into the stands against the Red Sox for that foul ball. After every announcer and every player chimed in on what a great play it was, an entire cottage industry sprung up around here to Oliver Stone it down to a misplayed routine popup, as if the point HAD TO BE MADE that it wasn't as good as everyone out there was saying it was. As if Jeter himself was somehow to blame because the judges awarded him a 9.8 instead of an 8.2 for his effort.

I have met Ripken. Very personable and friendly guy, though after talking to him for awhile I still had no idea what kind of a man he is. Probably the bane of celebrity: you meet way more people than your Dunbar number can possibly accommodate.

Imagine Jeter as a career Pirate, getting maybe 100 fewer PA per year and hovering around 2800 career hits. We're probably worried that he might not make the HOF.

Heck, his fielding might warrant keeping him out. To take those numbers too literally, a Jeter losing around 15% of his offense might not be at 60 WAR yet.

and the clemens saga has proved only that the public and the media has already decided who is Good and who is EVULLL and no amount of anything is gonna change their minds.

It's incredible, isn't it, how some guys just get hated, and some get loved, and it's often very unclear how that happened. I wonder if A-Rod had had a PR guy planting nothing but positive stories about him for the last 15 years, how he'd be looked at.

Makes me wonder, in an alternate universe, what would have happened if A-Rod arrived in NY and then said "I'm a better hitter than Jeter, a better baserunner and a MUCH better fielding shortstop. I'm the new shortstop and he can move to 3B. Get used to it. If you aren't in favor of this, then you aren't trying to help the Yankees become a better team and you're not welcome here."

I'm sure that would have played out well. AlexRodriguez leaves Texas and tells the most successful franchise in baseball history how to be winners.

I think that if Jeter were not a Yankee, he would have been grossly underrated by traditional baseball fans. He'd probably be about as famous as Jeff Kent. That would probably make him one of the BTF favorites. Imagine Jeter as a career Pirate, getting maybe 100 fewer PA per year and hovering around 2800 career hits. We're probably worried that he might not make the HOF.

Except that the real Jeter has over 3300 hits and over 69 WAR. The other answer to that is that if Kent hadn't spent the better part of his career being a first class bunghole, he might have gotten a few more positive notices.

A closer comp to Jeter would be Barry Larkin, who was a roughly comparable hitter, a better fielder, played far fewer games, and wound up with an almost identical career value. How long did it take Larkin to make the HoF? Three years, and with over 85% of the vote. I'd ascribe the two year delay to his many, many games lost due to injuries and his lack of any significant postseason imprint. Give him Jeter's career numbers and postseason highlights and he would've breezed in on the first ballot, regardless of the uniform he played in.

and the clemens saga has proved only that the public and the media has already decided who is Good and who is EVULLL and no amount of anything is gonna change their minds.

It's incredible, isn't it, how some guys just get hated, and some get loved, and it's often very unclear how that happened.

I like both of those players (it's the laundry), but it's not exactly a mystery why they're not loved. Clemens was a great competitor, but there were plenty of times when that competitiveness got expressed in violent temper outbursts and strange missiles hurled at opposing players. And A-Rod (in the haters' narrative) ditched his team for an outsized payoff and kind of went downhill from there. Even before the unproven PED accusations against Clemens and A-Rod's failed test, these weren't exactly the sort of players that most fans would warm up to whenever they weren't performing on the MVP or CYA levels.

I wonder if A-Rod had had a PR guy planting nothing but positive stories about him for the last 15 years, how he'd be looked at.

He probably would've done better if he'd just spent half an hour after each game signing autographs. He wouldn't have needed a press agent for that.

If Jeter were not a Yankee, he would not have played on four World Champions in his first five ML seasons, and he would not have defied the laws of baseball gravity. He'd have been chased off shortstop à la Michael Young by the first Elvis Andrus to come along, and he'd have settled somewhere else on the diamond and continued to hit .300 indefinitely. As Andy notes, that nets him his 3,300 hits, and puts him in Paul Molitor territory, even as a fulltime DH. I don't know if he'd be underrated or overrated, but he'd be an easy Hall of Famer, even if he'd bounced from Milwaukee to Toronto to Minneapolis. Leading the league in hits in your late 30s will attract attention in any city :)

I dunno if he still does it, but Jeter years ago had more stamina for autograph-signing than anyone I've seen except – well, except Ripken. There is something about that kind of agreeable schmoozing, meaningless as it may be in the big picture: it shows you are OK with people liking you.

Maybe Pettitte isn't good enough in a historical sense to care much about. People don't seem to care much about Giambi's use, especially out here. (Maybe people in other places have just forgotten about him.)

But. as Walt notes, if Jeter plays elsewhere and loses 100 PAs per season, he's down to 2,800 hits. If he was moved off SS at age 30 and is a subpar 3Bman, is he still a lock if he doesn't return from the broken ankle in 2013. Does he become Harold Baines?

If he comes back and plays like most old guys play, and limps to 2875 or 2910 career hits as a Pirate, he's not going to stroll in.

He way overbid on A-Rod to start with. Hadn't the Yankees just signed Jeter to a $190M contract? Steinbrenner made it clear he wasn't going to go any higher than $190-200M at most on A-Rod. There weren't a lot of teams in the derby to start with since the $$$ were so high. What the heck did Hicks go up to $250M for? I thought these rich guys were supposed to be smart businessmen. Hicks apparently was a lousy poker player.

The chronology was the other way around. Hicks signed A-Rod to his mega-contract first. That prompted Steinbrenner, who had passed on locking up Jeter earlier, to get a deal done for considerably more ($189M) than before Hicks & A-Rod moved the market.

**A pretty good test of that would be their reaction to the time in 2004 when he dove into the stands against the Red Sox for that foul ball. After every announcer and every player chimed in on what a great play it was, an entire cottage industry sprung up around here to Oliver Stone it down to a misplayed routine popup, as if the point HAD TO BE MADE that it wasn't as good as everyone out there was saying it was. As if Jeter himself was somehow to blame because the judges awarded him a 9.8 instead of an 8.2 for his effort.

It wasn't some kind of abstract lament--Pokey Reese had made a catch of similar difficulty look easy earlier, because he could actually play a great shortstop, yet Jeter got all the plaudits for his defense because he fell into the stands after making the catch; and it wasn't even directed at Jeter so much as the media for their habit of inflating the perceived defensive value of players who make a play splashily because they couldn't get there in time to make it cleanly. The reaction had less to do with Yankee-Haters than with the anti-conventional wisdom thing that sometimes gets talked about around here.

Look, they both utter nothing but platitudes whenever they're in front of a microphone.

I don't recall Ripken ever throwing one of his teammates under a bus the way Jeter did to A-Rod.

You can pick apart this or that and try to magnify the differences between the two of them, but IMO it mostly comes down to the laundry. If you took the Yankee haters out of the anti-Jeter mix**, that'd reduce it by about 90%.

That's possible, but I have to say that I really don't have a strong dislike of Jeter, and I hate the Yankees more than any team in professional sports. I think he has built a certain relationship with the media, deliberately, and I don't fault him for that. If the "calculated" came off as insulting, I didn't mean it that way. I meant that I get the impression that Jeter isn't a boring person so much as a person who chooses to be boring in interviews on purpose, because it's a way to avoid controversy. Michael Jordan also had a calculated media image, as did Kobe Bryant (although the rape accusation really ended that).

I don't like the way that the media treats him, but that's not his fault. I also think that we lost the best we could have seen of A-Rod in order to keep an inferior player at SS, but that's also not Jeter's fault. I do think he's shown a few things that aren't particularly nice, but not an overwhelming number.

A pretty good test of that would be their reaction to the time in 2004 when he dove into the stands against the Red Sox for that foul ball. After every announcer and every player chimed in on what a great play it was, an entire cottage industry sprung up around here to Oliver Stone it down to a misplayed routine popup, as if the point HAD TO BE MADE that it wasn't as good as everyone out there was saying it was. As if Jeter himself was somehow to blame because the judges awarded him a 9.8 instead of an 8.2 for his effort.

Those arguments are ridiculous. It was a great play. It wasn't the greatest play in the history of the sport, but it was the sort of play where you had to be talented, be in the right place at the right time, and execute perfectly.

Except that the real Jeter has over 3300 hits and over 69 WAR. The other answer to that is that if Kent hadn't spent the better part of his career being a first class bunghole, he might have gotten a few more positive notices.

I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make. Jeter, with the same talent and durability, but not on a series of Yankee teams with powerhouse offenses, on a relatively weak team, in the lower-scoring NL, would probably lose about 100 PA per year simply because of reduced lineup turnover. So we're talking about the same player, without the advantages that get him to 3300 hits.

Also, Larkin was arguably a significantly better player than Jeter is now with all of the advantages; it depends on how much of a career voter you are. Jeter has the best two years, but they're very close in OPS+ on career (Jeter 117, Larkin 116). Larkin was a better defender and a better baserunner. Jeter obviously is significantly more durable. Even right now, with the benefit of nearly 3000 additional PA, Jeter is only slightly ahead of Larkin in career WAR (which some might argue understates Jeter's defensive liability).

I would have a tough time figuring out who is the better player, actually. Jeter has a lot more career and those two monstrous seasons, but I think Larkin's prime is better than Jeter's, and there's some adjustment to be made for run environment.

It wasn't some kind of abstract lament--Pokey Reese had made a catch of similar difficulty look easy earlier, because he could actually play a great shortstop, yet Jeter got all the plaudits for his defense because he fell into the stands after making the catch; and it wasn't even directed at Jeter so much as the media for their habit of inflating the perceived defensive value of players who make a play splashily because they couldn't get there in time to make it cleanly. The reaction had less to do with Yankee-Haters than with the anti-conventional wisdom thing that sometimes gets talked about around here.

BTW, anyone else remember the absolutely phenomenal play A-Rod made to save that game? 11th inning, bases loaded, no outs. Diving stop on a liner down the line, tags the bag to get the force and then, from his knees, lofts a Marino-esque touch pass over or around the runner dashing for home to get the double play. A far more difficult (and in my eyes, no less spectacular) play.

For all the snark and venom directed toward Jeter, there is another aspect to consider... he is, universally, the most respected player on the field by OTHER players and managers. Poll after poll, survey after survey, article after article, for 15+ years we've read and heard he's the player other players want to emulate... the example managers and coaches tell their young kids to follow, etc etc. I'm not a Jeter schill--he's been a very good player for along time, but he's never, ever been the best player on his own team (well, maybe 1998-1999). Yes, some of those same polls say he's the most overrated player in the game--while at the same time listing him as the most admired. But still.

But. as Walt notes, if Jeter plays elsewhere and loses 100 PAs per season, he's down to 2,800 hits.

I doubt there's anywhere he could go and lose close to 100 PA per season (provided he's still hitting at the top of the lineup, which he undoubtedly would have been in Pittsburgh or any similar place). It's probably going to be more in the 40-60 range, at the most. (For instance, Tony Womack spent the entire season batting in the leadoff hole for the Pirates in 1997-98, he had 689 PA in 155 games in 97 and 704 in 159 in 98, which was only about 30 fewer than Jeter averaged in seasons of similar number of games).

While the Yankees' offense throughout the Jeter era was going to generate more runs (and trips around the order), they would lose a lot more ninth-inning ABs than the league's bottom feeders, negating some of that edge.

For all the snark and venom directed toward Jeter, there is another aspect to consider... he is, universally, the most respected player on the field by OTHER players and managers. Poll after poll, survey after survey, article after article, for 15+ years we've read and heard he's the player other players want to emulate... the example managers and coaches tell their young kids to follow, etc etc.

Folks that were in the WBC with him -- even those with reason to have some issues, such as Dustin Pedroia & Chipper Jones -- lauded Jeter as a teammate. Haters are going to hate, but they really have to have their heads in the sand (or somewhere) to carry on about Jeter.

I doubt there's anywhere he could go and lose close to 100 PA per season (provided he's still hitting at the top of the lineup, which he undoubtedly would have been in Pittsburgh or any similar place).

I don't know that it's so clear that he'd lead off. Jeter really strikes me as ideally a #2 hitter: high average, sees a lot of pitches, a decent amount of power.

I don't know that it's so clear that he'd lead off. Jeter really strikes me as ideally a #2 hitter: high average, sees a lot of pitches, a decent amount of power.

Yes, and I accounted for that when I said it would be 40-60 tops (and I suspect that's on the high side). Over a full season, a No. 2 guy should get, on average, 18 fewer PA than a leadoff hitter, so the number could fall off a little from the -30 Womack averaged.

Hell, Ichiro got 721 PA on a terrible offensive team in a pitcher's park in 2011. You're just not going to find 100 extra PAs for comparable spots in the batting order between any two teams (and the worse team you have, the more likely the guy will keep hitting toward the top of the order).

I don't know that it's so clear that he'd lead off. Jeter really strikes me as ideally a #2 hitter: high average, sees a lot of pitches, a decent amount of power.

The Yankees have batted Jeter second more often than he's led off. Usually he has been the best option for either role, and it is a matter of what their other options were, along with alternating right & left-handed hitters. IIRC, there is a difference of about 15 AB over a season for each slot dropped in the batting order. Not a huge deal.

I'd love to know how Jeter's offense vs. defense chasm would be treated if he were a lifetime Pirate. Presumably, his non-Triple-Crowny offense would then be underrated, a la Larkin, Trammell or even Biggio. His defense would probably also be less highly rated -- I think chances are he would be thought of as average, rather than great, while of course he would in fact still be terrible.

How would the stathead community react to someone who played a key position and was better offensively than people thought, but who also was thought of as an ok fielder when he was in fact a huge defensive liability at said key position? It's not a Piazza/Kent thing, because people both properly appreciate their offense since they were power hitters, and think that they were bad fielders (in fact, statheads would probably argue they were better defensively than their reputations). I can't think of anyone offhand who fits the description I gave. I dunno the answer, but I think it's an interesting hypothetical. (I suppose the moral of which is, don't worry about how players are "rated", just do you.)

I didn't realize that the difference in PA would be so little. I thought it was more like 50 PA in a season per lineup spot. So we're probably only talking about losing a couple of hundred PA over the career.

How would the stathead community react to someone who played a key position and was better offensively than people thought, but who also was thought of as an ok fielder when he was in fact a huge defensive liability at said key position? It's not a Piazza/Kent thing, because people both properly appreciate their offense since they were power hitters, and think that they were bad fielders (in fact, statheads would probably argue they were better defensively than their reputations). I can't think of anyone offhand who fits the description I gave.

I don't think Jeter stays at SS on a lousy team, especially if the team is struggling with the pitching staff and doesn't have a solid CF. The Yankees could afford Jeter's defense because they were so stacked in other positions, and once a team wins a few championships, it's hard to move an established player. (Especially if the likely spot to move him is occupied by a guy as good as Bernie Williams.)

How would the stathead community react to someone who played a key position and was better offensively than people thought, but who also was thought of as an ok fielder when he was in fact a huge defensive liability at said key position?

One thing that makes this very interesting question harder is that most guys nowadays are pretty much as good offensively as people think. The stathead revolution has led to there being fewer unheralded OBP gods, which was the traditional route to being underrated at the plate.

Brian Giles and Ray Durham might be the closest matches to your criteria: underrated offensively and overrated defensively (at their positions), at least in terms of the available metrics and how their managers used them. Statheads did like Giles quite a bit. If I could remember anything anybody ever said about Ray Durham, I would know more about him :)