Sorry for the delay in my response. I've been thinking about what you have said. From my own selfish view in the sceme of things, I keep going back to Celtic migrations and trade being one of the reasons for its spread. Most of the SRY2627 in the Isles seems to be in the Southwest and general Western areas. Traditionally Brythonic areas of the Isles. Then of course we have the Nordic L165, I'm still scratching my head over that one. I guess thats why no one really talks about it.

We are in a unique position in the P312 world, we are not necessarily Celtic nor are we necessarily Iberian, Germanic or any other nationality or culture. We are a mix of these peoples, no one more than the other. Though we do have a frequency pooling in Catalonia, I do believe this is recent in terms of how we view time.

We need to stop looking at clades like L21 and trying to compare ourselves to them with regard to their spread. They do seem to have occured along the way to their modern frequency zone. The trouble is, this logic is then applied to all of P312's clades and this is what I was refrencing earlier on that created my most recent fiasco.

I think DF27 occured much earlier and much farther east than most of the people on these forums seem to believe. I believe that DF27 was the first P312 descendant to venture into Western Europe, characterized by its wide dispersal and odd locations of frequency; likely reflecting founder effects.

I'm not an anthropology major, so I have no idea which culture or cultures would be responsible for our spread. Though I do like the Visigothic one for some reason, but then that would contradict my earlier statement about DF27 being the earliest entry to the Western front.

Though I guess we could say that the Z196 family occured in eastern europe and kind of remained there for a time and then spread in more recent times. DF27* seems to be more spread and random than, lets say, SRY2627. So maybe an early form of DF27 led the way and the major grouping (Z196) that came in and gave us the modern frequencies we see today occured after the fact.

The whole thing is a mess, but it's also a challenge. I just keep thinking back to some of the other findings of high frequency for SRY2627 besides Catalonia. Liebana Valley and Pas Valley in Cantabria (near the headwaters of the Ebro R.), Oporto, Portugal (mouth of the Duero R.) which originates near Numantia (Celtiberian hillfort), El Hierro Is. in the Canaries, Mallorca, and Tunisia. For such a smallish subclade it is very widespread in regions typically associated with the Iberian Peninsula and of course we have Belgium, Poland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Hungary, Romania, and the Ukraine to name a few far flung places from Iberia. The best answer given the age is some sort of Atlanto-Balto-Iberic fusion of something. I can't even call it Atlantic Celt as tempting as it may seem.

The whole thing is a mess, but it's also a challenge. I just keep thinking back to some of the other findings of high frequency for SRY2627 besides Catalonia. Liebana Valley and Pas Valley in Cantabria (near the headwaters of the Ebro R.), Oporto, Portugal (mouth of the Duero R.) which originates near Numantia (Celtiberian hillfort), El Hierro Is. in the Canaries, Mallorca, and Tunisia. For such a smallish subclade it is very widespread in regions typically associated with the Iberian Peninsula and of course we have Belgium, Poland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Hungary, Romania, and the Ukraine to name a few far flung places from Iberia. The best answer given the age is some sort of Atlanto-Balto-Iberic fusion of something. I can't even call it Atlantic Celt as tempting as it may seem.

Arch

Arch, I have done some more reading about the Volcae and they are documented as having settled in the Ebro valley with a few other Celtic tribes. And for sure the Goths did not come until much later, to late, if you ask me, for them to be the founding group of SRY2627 or Z214 and M153. However, I did discover that during the 1st century B.C. a large confederation of Germanic tribes, the Cimbri, the Tuetones, and the Ambrones left their homeland somewhere around Jutland and headed due south through Eastern Europe and the hooked west and ended up in the Ebro valley in Hispania and raided Gaul also. Interestingly enough, the king of the Cimbri had a celtic name.

The whole thing is a mess, but it's also a challenge. I just keep thinking back to some of the other findings of high frequency for SRY2627 besides Catalonia. Liebana Valley and Pas Valley in Cantabria (near the headwaters of the Ebro R.), Oporto, Portugal (mouth of the Duero R.) which originates near Numantia (Celtiberian hillfort), El Hierro Is. in the Canaries, Mallorca, and Tunisia. For such a smallish subclade it is very widespread in regions typically associated with the Iberian Peninsula and of course we have Belgium, Poland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Hungary, Romania, and the Ukraine to name a few far flung places from Iberia. The best answer given the age is some sort of Atlanto-Balto-Iberic fusion of something. I can't even call it Atlantic Celt as tempting as it may seem.

Arch

Arch -

In recent weeks, I have become aware of two Catalonian Geno 2.0 participants whose terminal SNP is R-CTS4299+, which is four levels downstream from SRY2627+. I have also become aware of another CTS4299+ Geno 2.0 participant who traces his paternal line to Kent, England. As some of you know, CTS4299+ is my terminal SNP. My observations prompt two questions and one comment:

(1) When and how did CTS4299+ cross the English Channel?

(2) What SNPs downstream from SRY2627+ appear in areas that you mentioned in your post? I see four choices (in chronological order): Z205+, CTS8289+, Z207+, and CTS4299+.

(3) Z207+ is the terminal SNP of a Geno 2.0 participant whose paternal line comes from Germany. A comparison of his 67 marker haplotype and mine suggests that Z207+ might have appeared between 1500 to 2000 years ago.

Stephen

Postscript for Arch:

Do you know whether your WTY results were taken into consideration when the Geno 2.0 chip was developed? I am aware that L659+ is one of the Y chromosome SNPS that Geno 2.0 tests.

The whole thing is a mess, but it's also a challenge. I just keep thinking back to some of the other findings of high frequency for SRY2627 besides Catalonia. Liebana Valley and Pas Valley in Cantabria (near the headwaters of the Ebro R.), Oporto, Portugal (mouth of the Duero R.) which originates near Numantia (Celtiberian hillfort), El Hierro Is. in the Canaries, Mallorca, and Tunisia. For such a smallish subclade it is very widespread in regions typically associated with the Iberian Peninsula and of course we have Belgium, Poland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Hungary, Romania, and the Ukraine to name a few far flung places from Iberia. The best answer given the age is some sort of Atlanto-Balto-Iberic fusion of something. I can't even call it Atlantic Celt as tempting as it may seem.

Arch

Arch -

In recent weeks, I have become aware of two Catalonian Geno 2.0 participants whose terminal SNP is R-CTS4299+, which is four levels downstream from SRY2627+. I have also become aware of another CTS4299+ Geno 2.0 participant who traces his paternal line to Kent, England. As some of you know, CTS4299+ is my terminal SNP. My observations prompt two questions and one comment:

(1) When and how did CTS4299+ cross the English Channel?

(2) What SNPs downstream from SRY2627+ appear in areas that you mentioned in your post? I see four choices (in chronological order): Z205+, CTS8289+, Z207+, and CTS4299+.

(3) Z207+ is the terminal SNP of a Geno 2.0 participant whose paternal line comes from Germany. A comparison of his 67 marker haplotype and mine suggests that Z207+ might have appeared between 1500 to 2000 years ago.

Stephen

Postscript for Arch:

Do you know whether your WTY results were taken into consideration when the Geno 2.0 chip was developed? I am aware that L659+ is one of the Y chromosome SNPS that Geno 2.0 tests.

Stephen,

I have no idea. Hopefully they did take it into consideration especially if it would have been about the same time they were developing the Geno 2.0 stuff.

The whole thing is a mess, but it's also a challenge. I just keep thinking back to some of the other findings of high frequency for SRY2627 besides Catalonia. Liebana Valley and Pas Valley in Cantabria (near the headwaters of the Ebro R.), Oporto, Portugal (mouth of the Duero R.) which originates near Numantia (Celtiberian hillfort), El Hierro Is. in the Canaries, Mallorca, and Tunisia. For such a smallish subclade it is very widespread in regions typically associated with the Iberian Peninsula and of course we have Belgium, Poland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Hungary, Romania, and the Ukraine to name a few far flung places from Iberia. The best answer given the age is some sort of Atlanto-Balto-Iberic fusion of something. I can't even call it Atlantic Celt as tempting as it may seem.

Arch

Arch, I have done some more reading about the Volcae and they are documented as having settled in the Ebro valley with a few other Celtic tribes. And for sure the Goths did not come until much later, to late, if you ask me, for them to be the founding group of SRY2627 or Z214 and M153. However, I did discover that during the 1st century B.C. a large confederation of Germanic tribes, the Cimbri, the Tuetones, and the Ambrones left their homeland somewhere around Jutland and headed due south through Eastern Europe and the hooked west and ended up in the Ebro valley in Hispania and raided Gaul also. Interestingly enough, the king of the Cimbri had a celtic name.

If I'm not mistaken, it was the Lusones (not to be confused with the Lusitanians in around the western Spain and Portugal region) were part of the Volcae. They did settle down along the Ebro R. near Llieda, the ancient capital of the Ilergetes from where its name is derived. The Volcae seem to be good connector, though I would definitely not later SRY2627 moving along with the Visigoths, Suebi, Vandals, Lombards, etc. The Cimbri almost seem to be a good possibility given they are earlier than the Visigoths and they are documented to have been in the Pyrenees and quite certain they were in Toulouse as allies of the Volcae Tectosages. One thing is quite clear, is how important Toulouse was in 100 BCE and earlier. Obviously it regained its importance after the fall of the Roman Empire and then after the Battle of Vouille it just kind of kept diminishing in importance after the Franks pushed the Visigoths to the south and into Iberia. You are correct about the Volcae origins being near the home of the Boii, pretty much where we see the Boii, we see the Volcae. There are some interesting names and places that evoke memories of the Boii in Bordeaux or Burdigala (apparently Gallic) and Val d'Boi south of Val d'Aran. Volcae does get us closer to "birthdate" of SRY2627. I'm guessing it (Volcae) falls short of 400 years?? Thus we reach back in the Late Bronze Age as the Bell Beakers or Urnfielders. I guess we'll have to wait for an answer from ancient DNA. The sooner the better.

I just can't shake a Celtic origin for my line. Try as I might, I was toying with a Flemish origin for a minute, but that fell through.

I think I may actually have evidence of a Brythonic/Breton connection. My family is from Devonshire aka Dumnonia. People from this area and Wales fled to what is now Brittany in the early middle ages.

There is a Frenchman( surname: Grouazel) in the SRY2627 project who is listing Brittany as his mdka. He is DYS490=12 and shares my unique str of 14 repeats at 392. I think he may be evidence of this event. Our gd is fairly high, above ten at 67 markers, but then I would expect this as it happened quite a ways back. We only mis-match a step or two in each of the areas we do mis-match.

Theres also a couple of people claiming Irish heritage, though I think Joyce is British, who are 490=12 and have 14 repeats. I haven't contacted either of these people because I don't really think I have enough conclusive evidence to make any claims directly to them.

Though I don't think my single case of a Brythonic type background would go against any of the cultures currently being discussed. I may be an exception to the rule.

I just can't shake a Celtic origin for my line. Try as I might, I was toying with a Flemish origin for a minute, but that fell through.

I think I may actually have evidence of a Brythonic/Breton connection. My family is from Devonshire aka Dumnonia. People from this area and Wales fled to what is now Brittany in the early middle ages.

There is a Frenchman( surname: Grouazel) in the SRY2627 project who is listing Brittany as his mdka. He is DYS490=12 and shares my unique str of 14 repeats at 392. I think he may be evidence of this event. Our gd is fairly high, above ten at 67 markers, but then I would expect this as it happened quite a ways back. We only mis-match a step or two in each of the areas we do mis-match.

Theres also a couple of people claiming Irish heritage, though I think Joyce is British, who are 490=12 and have 14 repeats. I haven't contacted either of these people because I don't really think I have enough conclusive evidence to make any claims directly to them.

Though I don't think my single case of a Brythonic type background would go against any of the cultures currently being discussed. I may be an exception to the rule.

I think this is the way the pendulum is swinging, SRY2627 is by and large an early variant of "Celtic." The Iberian theory falls short with the Scandinavian, Polish and further east SRY2627. However, Celtic is pretty much everywhere in Europe, even near or in Scandinavia (Cimbri). Maybe, just maybe the SRY2627 split is due to a significant event such as migration and split of the Tuetones and the Cimbri as an example. I have others in mind. Atrebates seems to be a better candidate for the earlier SRY2627 in Britain but I wouldn't an earlier Iron age movement to Britain. After all, Urnfielders were good at making hillforts on the mainland, and I can't see any reason why those skilled men couldn't make it to Britain.

Hey guys Bruce here or Brousse I will always go back to my Idea that the proto Celtic tribes of the pictones and santones are our origin seafaring tribes of the Bay of Biscay skilled ship builders when the Romans arrived no doubt traded on the English coast and other places Vincent Jullet and my family come from these lands. Low numbers of SRY2627 could be the result of having a great back yard that everyone wanted to control. I think trace evidence exist with the small numbers scattered in coastal areas. We may have even got there ourselves by the sea from where is anyone's guess

Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700

Hey guys Bruce here or Brousse I will always go back to my Idea that the proto Celtic tribes of the pictones and santones are our origin seafaring tribes of the Bay of Biscay skilled ship builders when the Romans arrived no doubt traded on the English coast and other places Vincent Jullet and my family come from these lands. Low numbers of SRY2627 could be the result of having a great back yard that everyone wanted to control. I think trace evidence exist with the small numbers scattered in coastal areas. We may have even got there ourselves by the sea from where is anyone's guess

Hey,

Nice to see you back. I am intrigued why we have such a high frequency around this region of France within FTDNA. Research studies point to a great concentration in the Midi Pyrenees region of France. Of course, the classic Pyrenean pictures gets thrown in there as well. My closest match is Julliet (Vienne?) and Alberti (near Asiago, Italy). That's an interesting mix I suppose. My guess is the "homeland" is nearer to Alpine Italy (a mama mia!). It's all good, I am always confused as being Italian.

Great News for me Arch I checked my FTDNA page and for the first time in 12 years I have 2 12 marker non surname matches haplogroup on one shows just P312 the other U106 they are both French surnames . Mr Greenspan told me years ago if anyone with my family's first 12 markers showed up he was pretty sure they would be related I don't guess there is anyway I'm related to the U106 guy? one name is LaRoche the other Tatard I have many matches but up until now just surname matches.Also Arch one time I found something on the Santone tribe that they had a branch in Italy I will try and find it again

« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 08:27:12 AM by Brousse »

Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700

Hey guys Bruce here or Brousse I will always go back to my Idea that the proto Celtic tribes of the pictones and santones are our origin seafaring tribes of the Bay of Biscay skilled ship builders when the Romans arrived no doubt traded on the English coast and other places Vincent Jullet and my family come from these lands. Low numbers of SRY2627 could be the result of having a great back yard that everyone wanted to control. I think trace evidence exist with the small numbers scattered in coastal areas. We may have even got there ourselves by the sea from where is anyone's guess

Hey,

Nice to see you back. I am intrigued why we have such a high frequency around this region of France within FTDNA.

Assuming this is the same Brousse for whom I once translated an old Huguenot marriage record (on Eupedia), the FTDNA concentration might be related to a certain amount of filtering of the French population that went to England, and/or to such colonies as (French) Canada, the Caribbean, and the present USA. By no means all of that had to do with religion, though some did; but I'd guess the more coastal/maritime areas were (and still are) better represented in the western hemisphere than the more inland or mountainous areas of present France.

I wanted to point out that there are new markers, downstream of SRY2627, which may or may not help to pinpoint the geographical origins of clusters such as DYS 490=12 and DYS490=10. Apparently there is a marker associated with each of these (CTS606 for the former and CTS8289 for the latter).

Under CTS8289 is Z207, which further subdivides into CTS4299 and Z208. The R1b1c6 group with FTDNA is conducting studies of these markers. Anyone who has tested with FTDNA and who is DYS490=10 should consider testing for one or more of them. (The administrator of the group is recommending Z207 as a starting point).

I wanted to point out that there are new markers, downstream of SRY2627, which may or may not help to pinpoint the geographical origins of clusters such as DYS 490=12 and DYS490=10. Apparently there is a marker associated with each of these (CTS606 for the former and CTS8289 for the latter).

Under CTS8289 is Z207, which further subdivides into CTS4299 and Z208. The R1b1c6 group with FTDNA is conducting studies of these markers. Anyone who has tested with FTDNA and who is DYS490=10 should consider testing for one or more of them. (The administrator of the group is recommending Z207 as a starting point).

Jason -

Since those of us in section A2 of FTDNA's SRY2627+ project have CTS4299+ as our terminal SNP according to my Geno 2.0 results, there will be no need for anyone in that section to test Z207. I have noticed the following Geno 2.0 terminal SNPs in section A0: CTS8289+ and Z207+; accordingly, more testing of SNPs in section A0 should be considered.

I was looking at the FTDNA SRY2627 group and noticed that in the dys 490 10 group you have no Spanish or Spanish names the 490 12 group is were they are at why is this?

Well, there is N14866, Jose Miguel Garcia, and also N28116 Serapio Silva. In group A9 (also DYS490=10) there is N92541 Wenceslao Ortiz. Not as many as the 12 or so in the other group, nor as high a percentage of the total (approximately 4% vs. 17%), but still...

I'm A0 group Elie Brousse of Cognac 148371 . The cool thing with my family group is my cousin matches here in America we can see a mutation took place in 1755 all decendants of my 5th Great Grandfather Revolution Veteran Arnold Bruce have DYS38911=31 his brothers line are 30

Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700

thanks for your e-mail. I've not seen the detailed stats and I'm not aware that enough unbiased data has been collected from France but I think it's possible that SRY2627 first occurred somewhere in what is now France about 1,500 BC. So I think anyone who is SRY2627+ with family history traced back to France can assume that the paternal line was in that region for the last 3,000 years or so, until further evidence suggests otherwise.

I hope this helps answer your question.

Best wishes

Gareth

Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700

Great News for me Arch I checked my FTDNA page and for the first time in 12 years I have 2 12 marker non surname matches haplogroup on one shows just P312 the other U106 they are both French surnames . Mr Greenspan told me years ago if anyone with my family's first 12 markers showed up he was pretty sure they would be related I don't guess there is anyway I'm related to the U106 guy? one name is LaRoche the other Tatard I have many matches but up until now just surname matches.Also Arch one time I found something on the Santone tribe that they had a branch in Italy I will try and find it again

I have a 25 marker match at 3 steps with Appleby's (not Applebee's, that place has horrible food). They are located in Essex, Colchester region. Makes me wonder if my group of SRY2627 arrived with the Romans or the Belgae perhaps. Colchester is, I think, one of the oldest cities in Britain rather than some village, hillfort, or oppidum.

Also, I wonder if the Helvetii had any impact in the region of the Saintones. It seems like they were attempting to but they didn't succeed. The other thing I have pondered is the influence found with the Taifai who arrived to Britain from around the Poitiers region. Did they ally with the Romans to fight the Veneti and then found their way in Britain later during the Claudian period. Everybody focuses too much on Belgium but there were other ways to get to Britain going back at least to the Bronze Age.

I have a 25 marker match at 3 steps with Appleby's (not Applebee's...)

Just FYI in case this turns out to be a family name in which you have long term interest, one of the more thoroughly developed detectives in English language fiction is Sir John Appleby of Scotland Yard. There are umpteen books about him, by Michael Innes -- a pseudonym of the late J.I.M. Stewart. I agree with your restaurant review, but the books are good.

I'm A0 group Elie Brousse of Cognac 148371 . The cool thing with my family group is my cousin matches here in America we can see a mutation took place in 1755 all decendants of my 5th Great Grandfather Revolution Veteran Arnold Bruce have DYS38911=31 his brothers line are 30