Post by J Gimmysum Truth on Oct 16, 2009 0:23:48 GMT -5

By now everyone knows that Scottish biotechnologists have cloned a sheep. They took a cell from a 6-year-old sheep, added its genes to a hollowed-out egg from another sheep, and placed it in the womb of yet another sheep, resulting in the birth of an identical twin sheep that is six years younger than its sister. This event was quickly followed up by the announcement that some Oregon scientists had cloned monkeys. The researchers say that in principle it should be possible to clone humans. That prospect has apparently frightened a lot of people, and quite a few of them are calling for regulators to ban cloning since we cannot predict what the consequences of it will be.

President Clinton rushed to ban federal funding of human cloning research and asked privately funded researchers to stop such research at least until the National Bioethics Advisory Commission issues a report on the ethical implications of human cloning. The commission, composed of scientists, lawyers, and ethicists, was appointed last year to advise the federal government on the ethical questions posed by biotechnology research and new medical therapies. Its report is now due in May.

But Sen. Christopher Bond (R-Mo.) isn't waiting around for the commission's recommendations; he's already made up his mind. Bond introduced a bill to ban the federal funding of human cloning or human cloning research. "I want to send a clear signal,"said the senator, "that this is something we cannot and should not tolerate. This type of research on humans is morally reprehensible."

Carl Feldbaum, president of the Biotechnology Industry Organization, hurriedly said that human cloning should be immediately banned. Perennial Luddite Jeremy Rifkin grandly pronounced that cloning "throws every convention, every historical tradition, up for grabs."At the putative opposite end of the political spectrum, conservative columnist George Will chimed in: "What if the great given--a human being is a product of the union of a man and woman--is no longer a given?"

In addition to these pundits and politicians, a whole raft of bioethicists declared that they, too, oppose human cloning. Daniel Callahan of the Hastings Center said flat out: "The message must be simple and decisive: The human species doesn't need cloning."George Annas of Boston University agreed: "Most people who have thought about this believe it is not a reasonable use and should not be allowed.... This is not a case of scientific freedom vs. the regulators."

Given all of the brouhaha, you'd think it was crystal clear why cloning humans is unethical. But what exactly is wrong with it? Which ethical principle does cloning violate? Stealing? Lying? Coveting? Murdering? What? Most of the arguments against cloning amount to little more than a reformulation of the old familiar refrain of Luddites everywhere: "If God had meant for man to fly, he would have given us wings. And if God had meant for man to clone, he would have given us spores."Ethical reasoning requires more than that.

What would a clone be? Well, he or she would be a complete human being who happens to share the same genes with another person. Today, we call such people identical twins. To my knowledge no one has argued that twins are immoral. Of course, cloned twins would not be the same age. But it is hard to see why this age difference might present an ethical problem--or give clones a different moral status.

"You should treat all clones like you would treat all monozygous [identical] twins or triplets,"concludes Dr. H. Tristam Engelhardt, a professor of medicine at Baylor and a philosopher at Rice University. "That's it."It would be unethical to treat a human clone as anything other than a human being. If this principle is observed, he argues, all the other "ethical"problems for a secular society essentially disappear. John Fletcher, a professor of biomedical ethics in the medical school at the University of Virginia, agrees: "I don't believe that there is any intrinsic reason why cloning should not be done."

Let's take a look at a few of the scenarios that opponents of human cloning have sketched out. Some argue that clones would undermine the uniqueness of each human being. "Can individuality, identity and dignity be severed from genetic distinctiveness, and from belief in a person's open future?"asks George Will.

Will and others have apparently fallen under the sway of what Fletcher calls "genetic essentialism."Fletcher says polls indicate that some 30 percent to 40 percent of Americans are genetic essentialists, who believe that genes almost completely determine who a person is. But a person who is a clone would live in a very different world from that of his genetic predecessor. With greatly divergent experiences, their brains would be wired differently. After all, even twins who grow up together are separate people--distinct individuals with different personalities and certainly no lack of Will's "individuality, identity and dignity."

In addition, a clone that grew from one person's DNA inserted in another person's host egg would pick up "maternal factors"from the proteins in that egg, altering its development. Physiological differences between the womb of the original and host mothers could also affect the clone's development. In no sense, therefore, would or could a clone be a "carbon copy"of his or her predecessor.

What about a rich jerk who is so narcissistic that he wants to clone himself so that he can give all his wealth to himself? First, he will fail. His clone is simply not the same person that he is. The clone may be a jerk too, but he will be his own individual jerk. Nor is Jerk Sr.'s action unprecedented. Today, rich people, and regular people too, make an effort to pass along some wealth to their children when they die. People will their estates to their children not only because they are connected by bonds of love but also because they have genetic ties. The principle is no different for clones.

Senator Bond and others worry about a gory scenario in which clones would be created to provide spare parts, such as organs that would not be rejected by the predecessor's immune system. "The creation of a human being should not be for spare parts or as a replacement," says Bond. I agree. The simple response to this scenario is: Clones are people. You must treat them like people. We don't forcibly take organs from one twin and give them to the other. Why would we do that in the case of clones?

The technology of cloning may well allow biotechnologists to develop animals which will grow human-compatible organs for transplant. Cloning is likely to be first used to create animals that produce valuable therapeutic hormones, enzymes, and proteins.

But what about cloning exceptional human beings? George Will put it this way: "Suppose a cloned Michael Jordan, age 8, preferred violin to basketball? Is it imaginable? If so, would it be tolerable to the cloner?"Yes, it is imaginable, and the cloner would just have to put up with violin recitals. Kids are not commercial property--slavery was abolished some time ago. We all know about Little League fathers and stage mothers who push their kids, but given the stubborn nature of individuals, those parents rarely manage to make kids stick forever to something they hate. A ban on cloning wouldn't abolish pushy parents.

One putatively scientific argument against cloning has been raised. As a National Public Radio commentator who opposes cloning quipped, "Diversity isn't just politically correct, it's good science." Sexual reproduction seems to have evolved for the purpose of staying ahead of ever- mutating pathogens in a continuing arms race. Novel combinations of genes created through sexual reproduction help immune systems devise defenses against rapidly evolving germs, viruses, and parasites. The argument against cloning says that if enough human beings were cloned, pathogens would likely adapt and begin to get the upper hand, causing widespread disease. The analogy often cited is what happens when a lot of farmers all adopt the same corn hybrid. If the hybrid is highly susceptible to a particular bug, then the crop fails.

That warning may have some validity for cloned livestock, which may well have to live in environments protected from infectious disease. But it is unlikely that there will be millions of clones of one person. Genomic diversity would still be the rule for humanity. There might be more identical twins, triplets, etc., but unless there are millions of clones of one person, raging epidemics sweeping through hordes of human beings with identical genomes seem very unlikely.

But even if someday millions of clones of one person existed, who is to say that novel technologies wouldn't by then be able to control human pathogens? After all, it wasn't genetic diversity that caused typhoid, typhus, polio, or measles to all but disappear in the United States. It was modern sanitation and modern medicine.

There's no reason to think that a law against cloning would make much difference anyway. "It's such a simple technology, it won't be ban-able,"says Engelhardt. "That's why God made offshore islands, so that anybody who wants to do it can have it done."Cloning would simply go underground and be practiced without legal oversight. This means that people who turned to cloning would not have recourse to the law to enforce contracts, ensure proper standards, and hold practitioners liable for malpractice.

Who is likely to be making the decisions about whether human cloning should be banned? When President Clinton appointed the National Bioethics Advisory Commission last year, his stated hope was that such a commission could come up with some sort of societal consensus about what we should do with cloning.

The problem with achieving and imposing such a consensus is that Americans live in a large number of disparate moral communities. "If you call up the Pope in Rome, do you think he'll hesitate?"asks Engelhardt. "He'll say, 'No, that's not the way that Christians reproduce.' And if you live Christianity of a Roman Catholic sort, that'll be a good enough answer. And if you're fully secular, it won't be a relevant answer at all. And if you're in- between, you'll feel kind of generally guilty."

Engelhardt questions the efficacy of such commissions: "Understand why all such commissions are frauds. Imagine a commission that really represented our political and moral diversity. It would have as its members Jesse Jackson, Jesse Helms, Mother Teresa, Bella Abzug, Phyllis Schafly. And they would all talk together, and they would never agree on anything. Presidents and Congresses rig--manufacture fraudulently--a consensus by choosing people to serve on such commissions who already more or less agree....Commissions are created to manufacture the fraudulent view that we have a consensus."

Unlike Engelhardt, Fletcher believes that the National Bioethics Advisory Commission can be useful, but he acknowledges that "all of the commissions in the past have made recommendations that have had their effects in federal regulations. So they are a source eventually of regulations."The bioethics field is littered with ill-advised bans, starting in the mid-1970s with the two-year moratorium on recombining DNA and including the law against selling organs and blood and Clinton's recent prohibition on using human embryos in federally funded medical research.

As history shows, many bioethicists succumb to the thrill of exercising power by saying no. Simply leaving people free to make their own mistakes will get a bio- ethicist no perks, no conferences, and no power. Bioethicists aren't the ones suffering, the ones dying, and the ones who are infertile, so they do not bear the consequences of their bans. There certainly is a role for bioethicists as advisers, explaining to individuals what the ramifications of their decisions might be. But bioethicists should have no ability to stop individuals from making their own decisions, once they feel that they have enough information.

Ultimately, biotechnology is no different from any other technology--humans must be allowed to experiment with it in order to find its best uses and, yes, to make and learn from mistakes in using it. Trying to decide in advance how a technology should be used is futile. The smartest commission ever assembled simply doesn't have the creativity of millions of human beings trying to live the best lives that they can by trying out and developing new technologies.

So why is the impulse to ban cloning so strong? "We haven't gotten over the nostalgia for the Inquisition,"concludes Engelhardt. "We are people who are postmodernist with a nostalgia for the Middle Ages. We still want the state to have the power of the Inquisition to enforce good public morals on everyone, whether they want it or not."

Post by GetSmart on Oct 18, 2009 2:01:43 GMT -5

Hi Gimmysome,

It is important that you posted this thread here because this is the one single subject to which mainstream media exposes the public regarding cloning: is it OK or not?

This is an issue which I have not yet thought much about nor explored in terms of where the debate stands today, so I will try to focus on what appear at first glance to be some of the legitimate issues.

LIFE:

We usually don't mind planting flowers in our garden which were modified by men, if we can have a rose with our favorite color and favorite scent, most folks would say: why not?

When it comes to human beings, we tend to think of ourselves as something more than objects or cattle, making us less open to being manipulated when it comes to the creation of our own life. For example, who would like to know that some geek in a lab coat decided what you'd look like and what predisposition you would have, using some recipe... or maybe because he was drunk?

DIVERSITY:

While it may not be anyone's intention, who is to prevent lab technicians from designing a society where only two models of humans exist, Adams and Eves? Sure the babes would be "Hot" and the guys would be Demi-Gods, but is that the kind of world we want to live in?

Wait... come to think of it, we wouldn't have to live in it, because there's no room in such a world for people like us!

CONTROL:

Who decides who to clone? Who decides what characteristics are desirable? Who educates them and directs them? Who places them inside society, and for what purpose?

COEXISTENCE:

Will we have wars against the clones? Can we accept them among us with equal or adjusted behavior? Are they lovable and can they love? Are they tools or full members of society? Say, those Middle Ages are starting to look awful good now...

SURVIVAL:

Who is to prevent some Corporation from owning clones? Could they engineer their genes to make them resistant to certain mortal toxins, like they do for Round Up resistant pesticides? Then if they contaminated the Earth with such poisons, all that would be left are the clones, running a world of clones. Are the clones already among us, made resistant to the Swine Flu?

DECEPTION:

Cloning opens the door to deception using exact copies as impostors or Doppelgangers. This means that it is an invitation to cheat and prey upon human relationships and the very fabric of society's power structures and psychological construct. Our politicians may not be those we elected, our Monarchs may be usurpers, our Generals may be traitors, our bosses may be hired actors, our friends may be phonies, our spouse may be a simulator, our children may be replacement versions, and we could be "traded in" unnoticed, by whoever thought it useful.

The Twin ParadoxWhat exactly is wrong with cloning people?Ronald Bailey from the May 1997 issue

Regarding the cited article, you will excuse me if I ask that we make a clone of a leading scientist specializing in twins, such as was the late Doctor Mengele, to decide what is to be done with the author, Mr Bailey. After all, don't we have a duty to experiment with science even if it means making mistakes? ;D

Post by beatlies on Oct 18, 2009 4:32:49 GMT -5

Also, cloning is tantanount to harmful, immoral physical and emotional experimentation and potential deformation of the infant/child clone resulting from the cloning process. A severe violation of basic medical ethics and the physician's moral oath.

Post by on Dec 27, 2011 10:27:34 GMT -5

We, as humans, are more than science understands. Science can only postulate about what they have observed. Their observations are narrow at times. For example, Kirlian photography photographs the etheric body. It does exist, but western science ignores it.

We have energy bodies and other layers yet to be discovered. There might be a purpose to natural things like pregnancy. I'd guess that it has an profound influence on consciousness to come into the world as a clone in a lab instead of a baby in a womb.

If enough people are clones, the influence on society and our relationship to reality would be altered in unimaginable ways.

Post by on Jan 14, 2012 18:58:22 GMT -5

I have many questions about cloning. Are there any threads or information that would help me to understand this topic more? I recently heard Freeman mention that clones don't have souls and the only reason they imitate life is because they were electro-shocked like Frankenstein. I'd like to research it more.

Post by beatlies on Jan 14, 2012 19:51:44 GMT -5

I have many questions about cloning. Are there any threads or information that would help me to understand this topic more? I recently heard Freeman mention that clones don't have souls and the only reason they imitate life is because they were electro-shocked like Frankenstein. I'd like to research it more.

There are many posts about cloning in this forum. I'd suggest using the forum search engine, and also going to the thread with "Clones, Synthetics, Robotics" in the title, in the Celebrities section.

It is in the public, scientific record that the first in vitro fertilization was done in the USA in 1944 (middle of WW II, in a military-linked lab), and that Nazi scientists were doing research along the lines of multiple birth/twins implants in the human womb in the 1930s and 40s in the Third Reich. In fact, Dr. Hans Spemann won a Nobel Prize in Medicine for Hitler's Germany in 1936 for innovative research along these lines with animals. Frogs were successfully cloned in the U.S. in 1952. After that, strange gaps appear in the R and D timeline of cloning, suggesting that the real, ethically tainted cloning projects were then done in secret "black ops" type projects.

Also, I think we should carefully note that it is fairly easy to create human identical twins and triplets by IVF and womb implantation, which is a way to create doubles/doppelgangers to order, if not clones.