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Re: Need advice on an HDTV

Question justin, have these sets been calibrated that you are testing? Are you testing the exact same models or are you trying to compare a Pioneer or Panasonic (both models do have the best blacks) with a Samsung which leaves something to be desired?

Justin I'm not trying to be a wise guy here, but were not talking about someone using Mcintosh or Krell products here.

You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

Re: Need advice on an HDTV

You work with this stuff all the time? Im sorry I run a store that does 500k a month in HIGH end theater gear. Infront of my face I see 10 Lcd/Plasma Tv's that cost over 3000 dollars and a Pioneer Elite that retails for 8k with a 1500 dollar Pioneer elite bluray player on it. You can yell and scream about digital does not make a difference. I have nothing to lose here I live in dallas so I am not trying to sell anyone on this board anything. With high end gear YOU WILL NOTICE A DIFFERENCE. Infact I actually have a Mit WD65831 Diamond 1080p Setup Picture in Picture with 2 Pioneer elite DV46AV's on it. One with a HDMI 1 Cable from Audioquest and one with a ProSolutions Hdmi Cable on it. The prosolutions goes for about 65 bucks or so. So by your standards it would be a overpriced cable as well. YOU CAN SEE A DIFFERENCE. The blacks are darker the flesh tones are better, and do not even get me started on the Audio difference on the two. The difference is there if you do not want to belive it or not. Will you see it on a 29 dollar dvd player and a 800 dollar 50 inch dlp maybee not. But when you get into the higher quality merchandise you will notice a difference. Before you resond I want to know if you have seen the two side by side both hooked up with a high quality player to actually see the difference. BTW I am in no way saying you should buy the 100-200 dollar HDMI cables I am just simply stating there is a difference between the two. Many people could care less and would rather save 80 dollars or so which is fine.

There's no difference. Case closed. The blacks aren't darker. The flesh tones aren't better. Nothing. Actually, people in your line of work are the ones that typically spread the disinformation as it's given to them by reps and they innocently believe it as gospel. Or they get caught up in the marketing themselves. Typically, the only way anyone 'sees' a difference is if they WANT to believe the higher priced cable is 'better' or has been told it's better. There have been plenty of tests done to show that in blind tests your assertion falls on its face. Not only that but with these digital signals and cables between devices you CANNOT be correct because there is NO subjective variable involved. That's the kicker.

There is NO difference because there can't be a difference. It's physically impossible because we are dealing in the digital domain. There is no subjective quality to it. None. Science isn't on your side here. The cable is carrying 1 and 0's and if those get changed the picture gets garbled (as in pixelation or no picture at all).

I'm sorry but you need to educate yourself more on the cables rather than spreading misinformation as gospel. I'm not trying to argue with you here. I'm just trying to stop the flow of misinformation. Just because you sell them doesn't mean you understand how they work. In fact, you've clearly proven you don't understand. There's no shame in being wrong and if you want to believe there is a subjective difference where none can possibly exist that is your perogative. But I want to make sure people understand how these myths exist and unfold and how a misinformed salesman or catalog hype can separate them from their money.

There's no real debate here because you couldn't be any more wrong. I'd love to agree with you but then we'd both be wrong.

-Bball

Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

------

"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

Re: Need advice on an HDTV

Question justin, have these sets been calibrated that you are testing? Are you testing the exact same models or are you trying to compare a Pioneer or Panasonic (both models do have the best blacks) with a Samsung which leaves something to be desired?

Justin I'm not trying to be a wise guy here, but were not talking about someone using Mcintosh or Krell products here.

RWD- The Tv we have it on was ISF calibrated if that is what you are asking. We have two of the SAME dvd player hooked up two it. One with a audioquest cable and one with a Prosolutions cable. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. Like I said before I have no reason to lie to any of you. I live no where close to indy. RWD you are right we may not be talking about mcintosh, krell, or any highend product for that matter. It is just when someone wants to tell me im not seeing something that is RIGHT in front of my face that I like to aruge.

BBALL- I can tell you are very educated when it comes Electronics. We do not see eye to eye just like 95% of the industry. I will tell you I can personally see a difference. If I could not I Would not be on here saying I could. There is a digital world then there is the real world. The material in the cable does make a difference as well as the AWG.

Re: Need advice on an HDTV

BBALL. Real quick those cables you were suggesting. They say they do not support 1080P. Now they have a step up for 50 dollars that does support 1080P and acutally looks like a decent cable. Thats a internet price and is closer to my cost of the Audioquest cables.

So is your dayton cable you are suggesting. Will it transfer 1080P. In your theory it will. But they say it will not and after emailing the company they say they have cutoff problems with the picture when it does.

Re: Need advice on an HDTV

BBALL. Real quick those cables you were suggesting. They say they do not support 1080P. Now they have a step up for 50 dollars that does support 1080P and acutally looks like a decent cable. Thats a internet price and is closer to my cost of the Audioquest cables.

So is your dayton cable you are suggesting. Will it transfer 1080P. In your theory it will. But they say it will not and after emailing the company they say they have cutoff problems with the picture when it does.

I assume that's a bandwidth issue and I haven't looked into that. That is totally different discussion than what we've been talking about previously and still isn't talking about any subjective qualities. Technically, it would still follow my 'theory' (which isn't a theory at all) because 'cutoff problems' would speak to the fact it either works or it doesn't, not that there will be a subjective difference. 1080P just raises the bar on the data rate the cable has to handle. A cable designed to handle the previous HDMI spec (when 1080i was the spec in point) isn't necessarily any more (or less) likely to handle the new speed better whether it's priced at 30.00 or 300.00.

It's still down to either it works or it doesn't work (pixelization, black screen, etc) not a subjective factor on blacker blacks, better contrast, sharper images, truer color, etc.. It's still either 1 or 0's.... it works or it doesn't. It's in the digital domain.

I'm certain length of cable would be a factor here. But again, not in subjective qualities of the picture only in whether it worked or not. This isn't analog where that type of thing can creep into the picture (pardon the pun).

I don't know enough about the data rate requirements of 1080p to say whether the majority of existing 1080i cables would work or not. My guess is the majority would work (especially considering the short distances normally involved in a home environment). Just like running mic line instead of dmx line in DMX512 applications... at short distances there's rarely an issue... as distance increases so does the chance for errors. But those errors don't manifest themselves in subjective ways. And that is really key here.

I pulled this off another forum:

I work for Quantum Data and design HDMI test equipment for a living. I personally supplied the test equipment used for the "Digital Perfection" HDMI testing.

Our equipment was used to test five cables at 1080p 60Hz (i.e. 148.5MHz). The equipment was setup to output random 24-bit pixel values at the transmitter and to compare received values with those transmitted - bit-for-bit at the receiver. All errors were counted - including temporal ones that you would never see with your eyeball. The test was conducted over the full voltage swing range of the HDMI standard (0.15 to 1.56 volts). All of the cables passed this noise test (over a period of several minutes) without a single error - so long as the voltage swing stayed above 0.32 volts. As it is very unlikely that any real product would output a signal below 0.32 volts at these lengths, all the cables essentially preformed flawlessly - regardless of price.

The "Cable Confidential (chart)" shows that the five cables tested ranged in length from 4 to 4.57 meters and in price from $31 to $300.

I have personally tested very long (50-meters)/expensive/high-quality cables through a pre-emphasized/equalized repeater and seen zero errors at 1080p 60Hz. So I can say for sure that perfection is possible for a price - using expensive cable and quality electronics on both ends.

To summarize, I think it would be safe to use just about any name brand off-the-shelf cable at 4-meters - so long one has properly designed source and sink products at either end. At longer lengths (e.g. 10-meter or greater) there may be a reason to spend more money. Here, I'd buy pre-emphasized/equalized electronics and cables with Simplay certification.

If anyone is still following there is also this from PC World Mag (highlights by me):

The Cable Game

Salespeople may tell you that exotic video cables deliver a better picture. But the results of our exclusive lab tests could save you money.
Sean Captain
Tuesday, August 02, 2005 10:00 AM PDT

Digital Perfection

Digital technology promises to transmit a perfect signal nearly all the time, thanks to the exacting standards incorporated in the HDMI specification. HDMI Licensing, which oversees the HDMI spec and ensures that companies comply with it, requires that no more than one pixel per billion be lost in transmission. "Even if you lost one out of a thousand pixels, you wouldn't notice it," says Leslie Chard, HDMI Licensing president.

To see for ourselves, we first used Quantum Data's 802BT Signal Generator/Analyzer to determine each cable's ability to handle video at resolutions of 480 progressive, which DVD players use; 720 progressive, popular among HDTV stations; and 1080 progressive, a possible format for future high-definition DVD discs and HD broadcasts.

We ran these resolutions at the 1.0-volt signal standard that HDMI sources (such as DVD players and cable set-top boxes) should provide. But we also challenged the cables with less-than-ideal voltage levels, ranging from an anemic 0.15 volt (to simulate a weak signal) up to an overdriven level of 1.56 volts. All but one cable performed well down to 0.15 volt and up to 1080 progressive for the main video signal elements: sync and InfoFrames (which allow the source and the TV to maintain a proper connection), plus three components that carry color or brightness information. Even the exception--a 4.5-meter AudioQuest HDMI-X cable that we purchased at Best Buy--would work fine in real life, where sources are more powerful than 0.15 volt and current resolutions are less demanding than 1080p. (Two other HDMI-X cables from AudioQuest performed well.)

All of the cables, however, had some trouble when we degraded the high-definition copy-protection signal, a dialogue between the source and the display that is required for decrypting copy-protected material. If the HDCP information isn't transmitted, the device won't deliver a signal. Every cable we tried failed to transmit the HDCP data at between 0.32 and 0.29 volt as we progressively lowered the voltage in our test setup. You're unlikely to encounter a signal as weak as that, however.

Real-World Digital

Next we used the Quantum Data 802BT to generate 720p test patterns and send them to an Epson PowerLite Cinema 500 LCD projector--a $5000 model that displays crisp high-definition signals in their native resolution of 1280 by 720 pixels, without scaling the image to higher or lower resolutions and thereby introducing artifacts. If the cables we tested could handle video signals specifically designed to illustrate problems, they could handle The Aviator or Lost.

We used a number of tests, including ramp screens, which present a smooth horizontal progression from black to full brightness. In viewing 720p ramps for gray, red, green, and blue, we looked for blinking or incorrectly colored pixels. Blue speckles appearing on a red ramp, for instance, would have indicated that the cable had delivered incorrect data; with real video, such errors might translate to colored flecks in shadows. But all the cables, including the AudioQuest HDMI-X one that had some difficulty in our instrument tests, had no problems.

One obstacle we did face involved establishing solid connections with our devices' HDMI ports. In some cases, we connected the cable but no image appeared. Sometimes wiggling the cable fixed the problem, and sometimes it didn't. But the trouble seems to stem from the the standard HDMI connector design used by all cable vendors.

"If you jiggle an HDMI connector, one or two electrical lines in the connector might have intermittent connections," says Chad Nelson, an engineer with Maxim Integrated Products, which manufactures chips for digital and analog signaling.

"We don't believe that there is a fundamental problem with the design of the HDMI connector," says HDMI Licensing's Chard. However, he notes that his organization is evaluating proposals for a connector that latches in place.

For now, the best strategy is to position the cable carefully so that it applies no stress to the connector. In our tests, we had the most trouble when trying to attach Monster's $300 M1000HDMI cable to the Epson's HDMI port. Easily the thickest, stiffest, heaviest model we reviewed, the Monster cable pulled away from the projector's HDMI port, often causing the screen to go blank.

Digital Reliability

Once you get a good HDMI connection, our tests indicate, you can expect flawless performance from any 4-meter cable, regardless of price. "That is what I would expect from the HDMI cables," says Maxim's Nelson. "It is not too difficult to make them work perfectly at 4 meters."

Digital cables are inherently more dependable than analog ones. Both transmit data by controlling the voltage levels in an electrical signal. With analog, slight shifts in voltage correspond to precise values in the final picture. Thus, if the signal carrying blue color information loses voltage as it travels down the cable, the blue objects on screen will appear weaker than intended. (Think faded skies.) -{Note by Bball- This paragraph above refers to ANALOG cables. The paragraph below talks about digital cables (HDMI)}

For its part, digital carries just ones and zeros. In HDMI, if the signal voltage is high, it encodes a one; if low, a zero. The voltage encoded as a one can drop a fair amount and still be distinguishable from voltage encoded as a zero. After a certain point, however, the signal voltage drops so low that ones and zeros look alike, and the TV's receiver chip attempts to guess their value. So rather than gradually diminishing in accuracy, the way an analog signal does, a digital signal may remain perfect up to a critical level and then fail catastrophically. According to the experts, such problems are likelier to occur with an 8- to 12-meter copper cable (which is significantly longer than most users need) than with a 4-meter cable of the same type.

All this confirms what I have been saying: With a digital connection there is absolutely no way that a functioning cable can make any subjective difference in the picture quality.

If you see a difference at all then what you are likely seeing is the difference in how the 2 inputs are calibrated on the TV set, or a difference in the calibration of the DVD players themselves (or both). What you described is in no way a fair comparison between the two cables. It's extremely flawed (tho it does explain why you see a difference). Different TV inputs, different DVD players (same model or not)... different results. Of course! I'd expect nothing less.

The cables have nothing to do with it tho. Nor could they. We're talking digital, not analog. It's simply scientifically impossible.

-Bball

Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

------

"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

Re: Need advice on an HDTV

Sorry guys but you will notice a difference between a cheap hdmi and one that is actually decent build quality. Cables are inducers. They are only going to damage the picture quality. The cheaper you go the cheaper the materials they use to build it which in turn cause more noise or distortion. This may be fine to some people but if you are running 1080p and you just spent 600 bucks on a ps3 then why not hook it up the correct way. Look at the different cables from Audioquest the HDMI 1 and the HDMI X. 120 Bucks but it upgrades you to silver in your cable which is a better conductor for High quality HD signal.

Also the grainyness and wavy lines might be from a ground loop caused by your power. You may check ebay for some of the monster power or Panamax strips that filter noise. These make a TON of difference in the performance. If you are tight on money I would say keep it hooked up with component and buy one of these. Retail they go for about 150 - 200 bucks so you should be able to find a used one for a good price. I cannot remember the basic monster one but the panamax one is the M8HCPRO. Its a nice piece that does a great job.

Once there was a world of analog, where any slight distortion to the signal came across.

We don't live there anymore. An ugly 1 looks the same as a pretty 1, and a bit counter test proves it.

I saw a guy use a COAT HANGER to replace his coax digital audio out a few years ago. Put it on a counter, no increase in errors.

That's why we are pushing into digital solutions in the first place.

The only other worry I'd have with longer runs is coupling between the lines, but as the PC Mag article points out, there are standards and specs that must be met for this.

Sorry, but I've worked as a EE in this field (consumer electronics video, including HD stuff) and have friends that still do with various companies. Plus the CPU world deals with the exact same issues. High frequency digital became an issue for computer design 10+ years ago, before DVD was even launched, let alone ATSC.

But they say it will not and after emailing the company they say they have cutoff problems with the picture when it does.

WTH does tha mean? Cutoff problems? Look, the increase in data rate increases the frequencies that will be transmitted. With that you get bigger coupling issues (2 parallel lines "seeing" the signal on each other) and frequency ringing issues at the ends of the line.

You might get some distortion from that, flip a bit or 2, and see a very small amount of noticeable pixel errors (ie, the pixel is a much different color), but then at the rate of SIXTY frames per second, and 1920x1080 pixels per frame, good freaking luck noticing it.

If the freq rate is way beyond a cable's ability, you just lose picture totally. Or it blocks up when bits in a primary frame drop, or bits in the header drop, etc. Ghosting, graininess, distortion...those are analog-only issues.

AVSForums is your friend, always a great place to start, far better than any salesperson. I know for a fact that people in the biz read and respond at AVS, people that made the circuits, programmed the players, etc.

Create an ignore list. I know it may seem unneighborly. But you're here to talk about the Pacers, not argue with someone who's just looking for an argument. Most of the regular users on here make use (at least occasionally) of the "Ignore" feature. Just go to "Settings" -> "Edit Ignore List" and add the names.

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