I thought she meant a hairy vagina in an attempt to make hairiness sound even worse.

I suppose it was

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Sorry, I couldn't let that one slide.

that made me get all peevy. There are just often posts reprimanding those who use 'vagina' as all encompassing of the female genitalia and it's just old. I apologize for the confusion and the outburst.

Carry on. Hormonal pregnant woman subdued.

Hey what a cool new smilie!

Maggie, blissfully married mama of 5 little ladies on my own little path.

But all of this confuses me from my experience of pretty much most guys I have known *NOT* wanting to get any girls pregnant....at all...why would they want a fertile girl then? Is it subconscious? FWIW I'm seriously asking~ no sarcasm here.
I can understand the argument as it is applied to the female side as many more girls/women I have known have wanted kids.

Yes, it's subconcous. They are looking for a mate, mate means sex, sex means baby so logically the most sexually attractive woman is the one who seems most suited for completing the sequence of events.

Unlike most other animals we have enough of a freewill to decide if we want to reproduce and consider the implications of reproducing. That doesn't eliminate the baser urges, it just allows us to utilize the natural and not so natural methods of preventing pregnancy.

Mutant Papa to DD (12) and DS (2), married to DHIf it looks like I'm trying to pick a fight... I'm not, I'm rarely that obvious.

Yes, it's subconcous. They are looking for a mate, mate means sex, sex means baby so logically the most sexually attractive woman is the one who seems most suited for completing the sequence of events.

Unlike most other animals we have enough of a freewill to decide if we want to reproduce and consider the implications of reproducing. That doesn't eliminate the baser urges, it just allows us to utilize the natural and not so natural methods of preventing pregnancy.

Well, I appreciate your response, but I don't think I buy into this theory. (but I would need to probably read more about it to really decide.)

Yes, it's subconcous. They are looking for a mate, mate means sex, sex means baby so logically the most sexually attractive woman is the one who seems most suited for completing the sequence of events.

Unlike most other animals we have enough of a freewill to decide if we want to reproduce and consider the implications of reproducing. That doesn't eliminate the baser urges, it just allows us to utilize the natural and not so natural methods of preventing pregnancy.

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It's pretty well accepted that many parts of human attractiveness are related to fertility cues. It's subconcious and innate, like mating compatibility of all species. It isn't really about actually finishing the process -- the production of children is regulated in a social context.

Different developmental psychology/anthropological studies have shown there to be many factors deemed attractive - indicative of good health/genetic fitness - cross-culturally and globally, such as facial symmetry, hip-to-waist ratio, facial bone structure, etc.

Body scent is also believed to play a role in immunological compatibility; one well-known test invited women to sniff the used t-shirts of men and rate them in order of attractiveness. The test found that women rated the immunologically dissimilar men the most attractive.

The argument being that two very different immune systems will give offspring a "hybrid vigor" so to speak, encouraging a healthy child.

You can also delve much further into human reproductive strategies, concealed ovulation, males and resources, the motivations of parental investment, etc. Obviously, human relationships have a strong social context and cultural variation which can also affect, override or otherwise alter our behavior. The root argument for many behaviors, though, is biological if you believe humans to be of the animal kingdom.

There are consistencies in attractiveness across cultures, though, and they are argued to be instinctual to our species. Shaving, obviously, is a cultural practice albeit an ancient one. But Mags is right -- attentiveness to grooming/hygiene, etc - if shaving falls under that category for you - is not exclusive to humans and is a behavior we share with other species.

I have only read to page 10 and then I skipped here, so I apologize if I am off track of the current conversation. I shave my armpits, pluck my brows, and wax my arms, full brazilian, and my legs. I am basically hairless from the neck down. I'm blonde so it is not an appearence thing, just comfort. This is MY personal choice because it makes me feek more comfortable and cleaner. DH actually wants to see me with a little hair, but as was mentioned earlier, the thought of AF sticking to hair makes me shudder : I've done this for 15 years because it feels more comfortable to me. I could care less what other women do.

I think that saying women who remove hair from their bodies are subconsiously oppressed is silly. It makes me think of people who say I am oppressed as a homemaker. I have a Masters degree, I just choose to stay home. I don't have to shave/pluck/wax but I choose to. Isn't that the beauty of the women's rights movement? To be free to make choices?

My DD can do what she wishes with her own body. I will support her in what makes her happy.

Earlier in the thread some things were said along these lines like women who shave don't do it for themselves, etc.

this is something i thought of earlier in the thread but couldn't find the right words for. i don't think it is fair to say that women aren't doing it for themselves. even if a woman shaves because she believes that is what other people find attractive, if she wears make up to look more like angelina jolie, and if she wears 4 in heels and mini skirts on her barely above underweight body b/c she thinks that it is attractive b/c that is what the media portrays technically she is still doing all of it for herself. maybe i don't think these things are necessarily true or important but so what? if they are important to her then she is doing it for herself.

some women don't believe SAHMs really choose to do that... and that it is left over oppression or something that is driving that desire... well then they can choose not to SAHM and i say good for them... they can think what they want but that doesn't make it true for me. some women believe that women who WOHM only do it because they feel like they have to or a whole host of other really offensive reasons... but i am 100% certain that there are women who WOHM because they enjoy it and it works for them...people can insist that she doesn't like it until the cows come home but it doesn't actually change anything. there are tons of reasons why people choose to do things and when it comes down to it we make choices based on what is important to us. so in the end what we do is for ourselves.

Again, I don't think anyone here is saying 'pedophilia' what we are saying is that there are men, and maybe a large percentage, who would ultimately prefer a younger, less experienced, less opinionated girl over an older, more experienced woman who isn't concerned with the smoothness of her armpits. Do you really not believe there are men out there like that?

So you think body hair=physical age, emotional maturity and outspokenness. And body hair removal=youth, less life experience and compliance? This seems a bit silly to me and it's certainly not true personally. I was completely hairy until 19 and have chosen to remove more of my hair as I aged.

I happen, through little effort of my own, to comply fairly well with current American beauty standards (young, look even younger, white, blonde, blue-eyed, cute face, thin body, long head hair, no body hair). I am also a radical feminist who has plenty of life experience and strong opinions and am not concerned with maintaining my armpits, or anything else, for the benefit of the male gaze. These things are not mutually exclusive.

When someone says shaving makes a woman 'look like a little girl' and that it's somehow inappropriate or creepy that men would like their partners shaved because it makes them 'look like a little girl', they are indeed referencing pedophilia since only actual children before puberty, not teens who are children under the law, have no body hair. I had just as much body hair at 15 as I do now, at 25. An older woman is only slightly more likely to be unshaven, due to changing social norms. Emotional maturity (which plenty of people older in age are lacking in) has absolutely nothing to do with body hair removal.

As far as men, of course the majority desire younger and conventionally attractive women. This is so and has ever been so (and younger, conventionally attractive men catch my own eye the most as well). But I don't give a crap what 'the average American male' wants/demands in his sexual or romantic partners, and I don't think he's pertinent to this discussion. My body hair has nothing to do with anyone else! It's mine, to do what I please with.

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but is anyone saying that? i'm certainly not.

Well, the OP started off with

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I do not shave because I feel like it is a disgusting habit invented by men to make grown women look more like little girls.

I do shave, but I totally agree with you about the pressure for grown woman to look like children . . . my stepdaughter (14) was complaining the other day about her new curves and calling herself "fat". Shelamented that when she was twelve she weighed 100 lbs, and is now approaching 120. the kid is a total knockout btw, not an ounce of loose flesh on her . . . her dad chimed in that she should watch her weight. I was outraged, horrified and very very sad. I explained to her that as women mature they get curves, that she needed the "fat" , that it was natures intention that women have them . . . I am nursing so I used that as one example of "why". Then I turned on her father . . . LOL. I asked him how he would feel if he were expected to look the same way NOW as he did before puberty. How silly would that be? And also very damaging . . . but I digress. As for the shaving, I did it without permission at 11 . . . dsd did it also without permission, at - YIKES- 9!!! Unless your daughter is completely sheltered from the mainstream world, I imagine that chances are she will want to try shaving at some point. Just as I can't force my dsd to embrace her womanly beauty, only encourage it and "try" to set a good example, I suspect that is all that can be done on the issue of shaving also . . . Good Luck

I have only read to page 10 and then I skipped here, so I apologize if I am off track of the current conversation. I shave my armpits, pluck my brows, and wax my arms, full brazilian, and my legs. I am basically hairless from the neck down. I'm blonde so it is not an appearence thing, just comfort. This is MY personal choice because it makes me feek more comfortable and cleaner. DH actually wants to see me with a little hair, but as was mentioned earlier, the thought of AF sticking to hair makes me shudder : I've done this for 15 years because it feels more comfortable to me. I could care less what other women do.

I think that saying women who remove hair from their bodies are subconsiously oppressed is silly. It makes me think of people who say I am oppressed as a homemaker. I have a Masters degree, I just choose to stay home. I don't have to shave/pluck/wax but I choose to. Isn't that the beauty of the women's rights movement? To be free to make choices?

My DD can do what she wishes with her own body. I will support her in what makes her happy.

Quoting myself....

I forgot one of my other reasons for having no hair- and one of my favorites! I have a tattoo right above my pubic bone and I would be very sad if I couldn't see it! So there ya go... one of my reasons is purely vain

this is something i thought of earlier in the thread but couldn't find the right words for. i don't think it is fair to say that women aren't doing it for themselves. even if a woman shaves because she believes that is what other people find attractive, if she wears make up to look more like angelina jolie, and if she wears 4 in heels and mini skirts on her barely above underweight body b/c she thinks that it is attractive b/c that is what the media portrays technically she is still doing all of it for herself. maybe i don't think these things are necessarily true or important but so what? if they are important to her then she is doing it for herself.

some women don't believe SAHMs really choose to do that... and that it is left over oppression or something that is driving that desire... well then they can choose not to SAHM and i say good for them... they can think what they want but that doesn't make it true for me. some women believe that women who WOHM only do it because they feel like they have to or a whole host of other really offensive reasons... but i am 100% certain that there are women who WOHM because they enjoy it and it works for them...people can insist that she doesn't like it until the cows come home but it doesn't actually change anything. there are tons of reasons why people choose to do things and when it comes down to it we make choices based on what is important to us. so in the end what we do is for ourselves.

that made me get all peevy. There are just often posts reprimanding those who use 'vagina' as all encompassing of the female genitalia and it's just old. I apologize for the confusion and the outburst.

Carry on. Hormonal pregnant woman subdued.

Hey what a cool new smilie!

I will be more careful with my use of that phrase. I actually, as I typed it, thought to myself, I should reword that but I don't know why. I just had this feeling that it might not properly convey what I meant, which was along the lines of: I was just reading along, thinking and learning and felt no need to respond, but this particular statement I couldn't just read and not reply. And although I would love that I was just trying to be funny, and made someone laugh, 'cause I love to be funny and make people laugh, in this case, I seriously thought she literally meant a hairless vagina, implying that unshaved women would have hairy vaginas. It had nothing to do with reprimanding anyone. I am a very visual and literal reader and when I read that, I was immediately given a visual as I read.

my Vagina Awesomeness Sequence was triggered...as I counted down to the day I would finally meet my first child...somewhere inside, another kind of countdown was taking place...a countdown to the day I would realize my true power as a woman, the day my vagina would reveal to me, what it really is, show me her "stuff" so to speak. I stopped trimming at all during this time and couldn't exactly pinpoint why...it just felt incredibly disrespectful to me...she was like a beast in waiting,I felt that for privacey sake, I needed to grow a coat, not to shield her from view, so much as provide some privacey, for the "big day". I liked how long it got and though my husbands eyes grew wide at catching a glimse of her in full day light...and he would occasionally make comments...it kind of thrilled me that he was so amazed...my vagina really started to look like something else, I'll tell ya! It was almost like it began to LOOK to him, as powerful as I felt it was becoming!

Then I gave birth...and I became like some sort of sorceress! The day I birthed my baby, I realized my POWER! I came into my true, femenine magic. That day completely changed me, the way Isaw myself and my relationships with my vagina, FOREVER. My vagina just knocked my socks off! Suddenly this issue of shaving didn't even seem like it was UP to me....my vagina became this very, very powerful force...almost too powerful to really belong to me. I birthed my baby, and it was like my vagina had become some portal to the universe...this being came OUT of me, through this place I had always had, but never had a true sense of!!

SO....I don't like to shave my lady parts now. They are sacred and I think, it's not so much a patch of hair for me now...it's more like a wizards cloak. To trim her...maybe, maybe at some point, if she gets REALLY unruly....I went a little crazy when my DD was a coupe of months old and I cut off my head hair and a lot of my vulva hair...that was no good. I felt a bit sick at it. I mean, it's like chopping off the cloak of a mighty wizard!! Imagine, a mighty, all powerful wizard...running through life all naked and scraggly looking!! No, no...I don't want to cut it again. It's long and silky and wild looking and it seems fitting....because I feel like a REAL woman now...like magic and femenine mystery...it's not mysterious if you can SEE it, you know?

I'm an intermittent shaver of my legs and armpits. I don't shave my pubic hair at all. As for DD, she is welcome to try it out if she wants, but I certainly won't be much of a help in terms of doing it "right." I've gone years without shaving and now shave maybe every 4 months. I assume she will learn that we don't want her to take at face value what the dominant culture pushes at her through the discussions we have throughout her childhood.