I'll take that chance. Beside Phil's worst season which is getting swept by Dallas was vdn's best season.

True. The other side of that coin is that Phil has to have the highest payroll to make things happen. Vdn has never had the highest pay roll to work with like Phil has. You want to know what the best coach looks like with only one star on his team? Look at 2006 to find out what it looks like. Phil is only as good as the money the teams spend on talent. And when you have the most money in talent and you still get bounced in the second round, it's time to hang things up. Or at the very least, look to spend the most money in order to make things work. When Phil didn't have the highest payroll, I don't think he's won anything. Keep that in mind when you realize we won't spend that much money for Phil.

And if Phil need to have the most money, then you have to question how much is the talent winning games.

But yet we are the deepest team in the NBA. So is it talent or payroll???

It's called VDN should be replaced...

Bad Coaching = Bad Results

ClipperSam

11/28/2012 - 05:35 PM PST

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clipper*joe wrote:

divinebeast wrote:

About a 5 million difference and that's without counting the extra 3 million tacked onto CP's new deal assuming he resigns

8 million added to our current payroll is still 80+

EDIT

My bad I was messing up the math

We wouldn't be at the 80 plus mark but we'd be hovering close to it and we'd still be a tax team

Again, that's assuming we keep the team intact. Ain't gonna happen.

Weren't you the one saying to others that they can't see the future and that there are no facts. No facts here....

Funny how you twist your words...

ClipperSam

11/28/2012 - 05:37 PM PST

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divinebeast wrote:

clipper*joe wrote:

divinebeast wrote:

Why would we let Chauncey go?

Chris Paul went out and PUBLICLY said we need Chauncey back

There's absolutely zero reason to keep Willie over Billups and you have absolutely no evidence that Hill will retire

Why would he sign for two years if he planned on quitting?

yes, he did. Cp3 wanted Billups back. But when do you draw the line and realize that the absence is hurting the team more than it's helping. Nash says hello.

I have no evidence of anything. An d neither do you. Remember, it was you saying we'd be 80 million in salary. That's a big assumption from you yet, you have a problem with my assumptions? Figures...

I actually have no problem with your assumptions but you seem to have problems with peoples assumptions on Vinny so I sort of flipped the script a little

The assumption I do have a problem with is you saying that Chauncey's presence will hurt the team

One guy complimented his friend, the other talked about "guys that hurt us".

FFS, YOU ARE SEEING WHAT YOU WANT TO SEE!!!

If a player talked about the great gift Vinny bought him for Christmas, you'd read it as - he's pissed at Vinny because he didn't mention receiving a birthday present.

Whatever, dude. I think everyone already knows your M.O...

Middle-East conflict - Vinny's fault.

Bird-flu pandemic - Vinny's fault.

African famine - Vinny's fault.

Hurrican Sandy - Vinny's fault.

...and the beat goes on and on and on...

ClipperSam

11/28/2012 - 05:40 PM PST

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clipper*joe wrote:

ClipperSam wrote:

I would take my odds with a better coach anyday!

I don't expect you to get it!

says the guy that claims to know for a fact that guys who never coached a game in their lives will make better coaches than VDN.

Yeah, I don't expect to get lunacy.

You've already lost all credibility the day you mentioned VDN is better than Phil.

Take a look at the Consensus poll. Wow I can guess the 3 that voted for VDN...

ClipperSam

11/28/2012 - 05:43 PM PST

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I think Sloan would be a great fit. I would be happy with either coach.

82-0

11/28/2012 - 05:50 PM PST

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One guy emphasized how well-coached the Hornets were in the press conference, the other guy criticized the schemes and adjustments. The implications there are pretty clear no matter how hard you try to spin it.

One guy complimented his friend, the other talked about "guys that hurt us".

FFS, YOU ARE SEEING WHAT YOU WANT TO SEE!!!

If a player talked about the great gift Vinny bought him for Christmas, you'd read it as - he's pissed at Vinny because he didn't mention receiving a birthday present.

Whatever, dude. I think everyone already knows your M.O...

Middle-East conflict - Vinny's fault.

Bird-flu pandemic - Vinny's fault.

African famine - Vinny's fault.

Hurrican Sandy - Vinny's fault.

...and the beat goes on and on and on...

Wrong the only thing I fault Vinny for is what most of us already see.

That the man simply can't coach.....

Its obvious to the majority of us. I am sure soon you will come aboard. It's unfortunate that you still don't see what most of the fans and experts are seeing. Like I said its just a matter of time. Hopefully it won't hurt us to bad come the Playoffs if he's still hanging around..

cleepers

11/28/2012 - 05:55 PM PST

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82-0 wrote:

cleepers wrote:

One guy complimented his friend, the other talked about "guys that hurt us".

FFS, YOU ARE SEEING WHAT YOU WANT TO SEE!!!

One guy emphasized how well-coached the Hornets were in the press conference, the other guy criticized the schemes and adjustments. The implications there are pretty clear no matter how hard you try to spin it.

No clearer than the team playing their asses off when one more loss would have gotten him fired.

No clearer than Blake signing a huge extension right after Vinny's option was picked up.

No clearer than Jamal telling a fan that Vinny still has the team's support.

No clearer than Vinny still having a job, while CP3 is in a contract year.

In short... not a shred of f***** evidence.

82-0

11/28/2012 - 05:59 PM PST

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cleepers wrote:

No clearer than the team playing their asses off when one more loss would have gotten him fired.

More like the team played their asses off because the alternative was missing the playoffs.

Quote:

No clearer than Blake signing a huge extension right after Vinny's option was picked up.

So I guess it's just a coincidence that NOBODY turns down that first big extension after their rookie contract? I guess Mike Brown's a genius, then, because LeBron signed his extension with the Cavs while Brown was under contract with them.

Quote:

No clearer than Jamal telling a fan that Vinny still has the team's support.

"We're not quitting on the coach" =/= "we fully support the coach."

tense2

11/28/2012 - 06:05 PM PST

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Listen Mr. Knowitall, please name some of these so called experts that can "see" what some of us can't.

cleepers

11/28/2012 - 06:05 PM PST

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And, "Monty is a great coach" =/= "Vinny is a bad coach".

You think they only started caring about the playoffs for THAT PARTICULAR game, but they didn't give a rats arse about them during the losing streak?

The difference between us is you are claiming to know the players' exact mindset, despite logical reasoning to the contrary.

I'll admit that I don't have a direct line to their innermost thoughts, but if you think you do... show me some proof... I dare you.

You're the one making the claim that Vinny has lost the locker room. Prove it.

tense2

11/28/2012 - 06:09 PM PST

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Epic, HOF thread!!

ClipperSam

11/28/2012 - 06:14 PM PST

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^ I have never claimed to know what is happening behind closed doors. Just the same way you truly don't know that the Players are really still behind Vinny as a coach. But the thing that is clear based on performance and what is happening on the court and decision making clearly shows Vinny is a horrible Coach. The consensus agrees. The Consensus agrees that Phil is a better Coach than Vinny. Yet it's clear you still choose VDN. Which is truly remarkable for anyone to make that statement. The facts exist there is no comparison of coaches. Yet you claim that Vinny is the better coach for the team. I am not the one arguing the facts.

tense2

11/28/2012 - 06:20 PM PST

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Never ever did I say Vinny was a better coach than Phil. What i did say was The Zen Master ain't coming here....period.

p.s.

You make assumptions all the time, lol.

tense2

11/28/2012 - 06:20 PM PST

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Double post

82-0

11/28/2012 - 06:24 PM PST

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And you're making the claim that, despite VOCAL CRITICISM OF THE COACHING, the players all love the job VDN is doing and have no complaints. Prove it - and no, making assumptions about why someone signed an extension or spinning the words someone tweeted is not proof.

clipper*joe

11/28/2012 - 06:27 PM PST

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Wow, when all fails, exaggerate what someone else said for the drama.

cleepers

11/28/2012 - 06:28 PM PST

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I don't know if the players are all 100% behind Vinny, the same way I don't know if they all secretly wish to play for the Bobcats.

The difference is, I'm not the one making the claim!!!

Now please enlighten me... if "performance and what is happening on the court" is empirical evidence that Vinny is a bad coach, then surely "performance and what was happening on the court" against the reigning champs and twice against the best coach in the league (consensus, of course) would be empirical evidence that Vinny is an elite coach, no?

It's called logic, Sam.

82-0

11/28/2012 - 06:30 PM PST

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clipper*joe wrote:

82-0 wrote:

And you're making the claim that, despite VOCAL CRITICISM OF THE COACHING, the players all love the job VDN is doing and have no complaints. Prove it -

Wow, when all fails, exaggerate what someone else said for the drama.

So I'm exaggerating by stating that publicly criticizing the schemes and adjustments is really a criticism of the coaching?

If the schemes and adjustments aren't on the coach, who's making them? The players? In that case, fire VDN because he's a useless waste of money.

cleepers

11/28/2012 - 06:32 PM PST

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82-0 wrote:

cleepers wrote:

You're the one making the claim that Vinny has lost the locker room. Prove it.

And you're making the claim that, despite VOCAL CRITICISM OF THE COACHING, the players all love the job VDN is doing and have no complaints. Prove it - and no, making assumptions about why someone signed an extension or spinning the words someone tweeted is not proof.

I must have missed the part where the word "coaching" or the name "Vinny" was mentioned. I haven't made any claims about the players' state of mind. That was you.

People here are saying he has lost the team, and I am pointing out incidents that refute that claim (at least to a person who subscribes to logic).

Until I see proof, it's just some hater's fantasy.

clipper*joe

11/28/2012 - 06:33 PM PST

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No, you're exaggerating what Cleepers said. he never said all the players love VDN. If that is how you want to come across, so be it.

82-0

11/28/2012 - 06:33 PM PST

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Installing schemes and making adjustments are the coach's responsibility, are they not?

ClippersDA

11/28/2012 - 06:34 PM PST

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Are people continuing to talk about this by it is a possibility? As much as I wish it was true, it seems moot

ekker3

11/28/2012 - 06:35 PM PST

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clipper*joe

11/28/2012 - 06:35 PM PST

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Cleeps, these guys don't understand a counterpoint. They make outrageous assumptions, and we counter. Then they want to put the burden of proof on us.

82-0

11/28/2012 - 06:36 PM PST

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clipper*joe wrote:

82-0 wrote:

So I'm exaggerating by stating that publicly criticizing the schemes and adjustments is really a criticism of the coaching?

If the schemes and adjustments aren't on the coach, who's making them? The players? In that case, fire VDN because he's a useless waste of money.

No, you're exaggerating what Cleepers said. he never said all the players love VDN. If that is how you want to come across, so be it.

I'm not really sure what his argument is then, because he keeps pointing to the players as the excuse not to fire VDN.

The same players who have openly criticized his schemes and adjustments, and the most complimentary thing they've said about him is "we're not tanking games to get him fired."

Seems like he doesn't have much of a case.

cleepers

11/28/2012 - 06:36 PM PST

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82-0 wrote:

cleepers wrote:

I must have missed the part where the word "coaching" or the name "Vinny" was mentioned.

Installing schemes and making adjustments are the coach's responsibility, are they not?

Schemes - yes, adjustments can mean anyone, and the word "we" explicitly means "myself and at least one other person".

82-0

11/28/2012 - 06:38 PM PST

Posts: 1360

votes: 3

cleepers wrote:

82-0 wrote:

cleepers wrote:

I must have missed the part where the word "coaching" or the name "Vinny" was mentioned.

Installing schemes and making adjustments are the coach's responsibility, are they not?

Schemes - yes, adjustments can mean anyone, and the word "we" explicitly means "myself and at least one other person".

Woah - is that an assumption?

"We" could also easily mean "the team".

cleepers

11/28/2012 - 06:38 PM PST

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82-0 wrote:

clipper*joe wrote:

82-0 wrote:

So I'm exaggerating by stating that publicly criticizing the schemes and adjustments is really a criticism of the coaching?

If the schemes and adjustments aren't on the coach, who's making them? The players? In that case, fire VDN because he's a useless waste of money.

No, you're exaggerating what Cleepers said. he never said all the players love VDN. If that is how you want to come across, so be it.

I'm not really sure what his argument is then, because he keeps pointing to the players as the excuse not to fire VDN.

The same players who have openly criticized his schemes and rotations, and the most complimentary thing they've said about him is "we're not tanking games to get him fired."

Seems like he doesn't have much of a case.

No, I have never said that the players are a reason to keep Vinny.

I am simply refuting your claim that they hate him by saying that they could get him fired with very little effort if they chose to do so.

82-0

11/28/2012 - 06:40 PM PST

Posts: 1360

votes: 3

Gasp! Are you exaggerating my argument?

I don't think the players hate Vinny, but from the comments some players have made recently, it seems obvious that they'd prefer a better coach.

Vinny's a nice guy, he's just in over his head. I actually want the Clippers to keep him as a front-office guy instead of a coach.

tense2

11/28/2012 - 06:41 PM PST

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This "discussion" is now beginning to sound like the old Abbot & Costello skit....who's on 1st., LOL.

cleepers

11/28/2012 - 06:43 PM PST

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82-0 wrote:

cleepers wrote:

Schemes - yes, adjustments can mean anyone, and the word "we" explicitly means "myself and at least one other person".

Woah - is that an assumption?

"We" could also easily mean "the team".

What?

You're just making no sense now. Let me make this easier for you... in the English language, the word "we" means: myself and at least one other person.

Yes, that could mean all 14 guys plus all the coaches, or it could mean the starters only, or it could just mean Blake and Vinny, but it DEFINITELY means that Blake was including himself.

Or is the dictionary a Vinny apologist, too?

CP3Best

11/28/2012 - 06:47 PM PST

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What are we fighting about?

CP3Best

11/28/2012 - 06:48 PM PST

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Response: "We" are not fighting about anything, because 'we' means myself and another person not 2 other persons!

82-0

11/28/2012 - 06:48 PM PST

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Yeah, he was CLEARLY including himself when he was criticizing the schemes that the players aren't responsible for.

CP3Best

11/28/2012 - 06:49 PM PST

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This is turning into a comedy discussion! Where we take one word and play with it to come out with all these different outcomes, lovin this!

cleepers

11/28/2012 - 07:07 PM PST

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Think what you want, mate. I'm done trying to reason with yet another zealot.

For your version of events to be accurate would require logic to be stretched to breaking point and/or duplicity at every turn.

The facts...

Chris Paul agrees to exercise his final year option to play for the Clippers under Vinny.

Clippers have their most successful regular season ever and equal their own deepest playoff run and Chris Paul's deepest run in his entire career.

Donald says: "I will make sure Blake and CP3 will retire as Clippers". Clippers look at 2 or 3 other coaching options just before Blake's extension comes due, opt for Vinny, then Blake re-signs.

Clips come out of the gate like gangbusters, winning 80% of their games. Morale has never been higher for this franchise.

Clips lose 4 on the bounce. Morale sinks. Chris Paul says "Monty's a great coach" and also says "They wanted it more". Blake says "We made some adjustments, but we should have just played like we usually do". Fans ask if Vinny has lost the team. Jamal replies "No Way!".

But have it your way if you want... He's lost the team, big trouble in Clipperland.

p.s. I miss soap-operas too. Wherever can one find a drama-fix these days?

JamFan

11/28/2012 - 07:31 PM PST

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We have a couple of issues.

1- We have no idea PJ wants to coach the Clippers, or wants to coach period.

2- PJ wants 12-14 Million

3- Sloan wants maybe 4 milllion

Which coach do you think Sterling is going to hire. PJ is triple any other coach not to mention all the other stuff he is going to ask for. You also have to fire the entire coaching staff because he will only coach if he can bring in his own assistants.

My personal problem is that the Triangle is extremely boring to watch. The quick paced, fast breaking, Lob City, offense will all go away. 200 trips up the floor per game we will see a walk it up the floor, slowly cut accross the key, snooze, snooze some more, eventually shoot the ball.....offense.

Give me Sloan, or give me death. It is death to watch the Triangle. I can run it in my sleep. And PJ doesn't do anything else. It is like watching the same movie over and over and over again. Groundhog Day. The Triangle is the biggest reason I stopped watching most Lakers games about 5 years ago. Why? It was more exciting to watch the Clippers. I just don't want to watch the Clippers become the Lakers Triangle

ClipsGForce

11/29/2012 - 03:02 AM PST

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Just let it go. Why do we need to recruit an Ex-Lakers who could only attend half of the games. Plus, he have no desire to coach anymore unless there is a guaranteeing in winning. Plus it doesn't matter about the money, it's matter how commitment are they to this team.

pageC4

11/29/2012 - 10:22 AM PST

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Donald said that? Awesome. I like to hear that sort of thing from the owner.

lacsmoove

11/29/2012 - 11:19 AM PST

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I've been reading this post for a while now, and yea it sucks to lose 4 straight. But already speaking of changing coaches? This would IMO show continued instability in the org. The Heat didn't fire there coach when they started 9-8, with the big 3.

Or Denver this year. No one was speaking of firing Karl when Denver (another team with a stacked roster and still only 8-7 and at full strength) started the season horribly. Do you think that Boston (another team loaded with players) is thinking of firing Rivers after the teams fight last night and an 8-7 start?

Or what about Lionel Hollins? Should he have been fired after the Grizzles had the audacity to lose to us after we beat them last season in game 7 in Memphis?

And I could go on and on. The only reason to fire Vinny now would be because the players have asked for it. In addittion I believe this is roughly how this team is going to play until after the allstar break. Chauncey just got back last night, Hill soon hopefully, Odom still not in shape but getting there.

Now after the break (barring any major injuries) my expectations go way up, and I'm quite confident that the Clips will have one of the best records heading into the playoffs.

I know everyone is excited and passionate about this team.As any real fan should be. But we also should conduct ourselves like we have done some homework on what builds success in the NBA. I think we need some patience fellas.

cleepers

11/29/2012 - 12:05 PM PST

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pageC4 wrote:

cleepers wrote:

Donald says: "I will make sure Blake and CP3 will retire as Clippers".

Donald said that? Awesome. I like to hear that sort of thing from the owner.

Yup. Given his history, I don't exactly consider it a cast-iron certainty, but on the other hand, he's actually been a pretty good owner recently.

Blake is already locked up and I'm certain Donald is not going to refuse CP3 his max... as somebody here said, the only risk is if he puts his foot in his mouth between now and July.

clipper*joe

11/29/2012 - 12:08 PM PST

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pageC4 wrote:

cleepers wrote:

Donald says: "I will make sure Blake and CP3 will retire as Clippers".

Donald said that? Awesome. I like to hear that sort of thing from the owner.

Yamon!

Before he said that, he also said up front, that BG and CP3 are max contract players. He's already given max to BG so we know he's serious.

82-0

11/29/2012 - 12:11 PM PST

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Didn't Sterling also say CP3 was his favorite player years before we traded for him?

cleepers

11/29/2012 - 12:13 PM PST

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He said "You belong in Hollywood" after The hornets spanked us. Three years later, he's a Clipper.

pageC4

11/29/2012 - 01:44 PM PST

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clipper*joe wrote:

pageC4 wrote:

cleepers wrote:

Donald says: "I will make sure Blake and CP3 will retire as Clippers".

Donald said that? Awesome. I like to hear that sort of thing from the owner.

Yamon!

Before he said that, he also said up front, that BG and CP3 are max contract players. He's already given max to BG so we know he's serious.

Thats a huge vote of confidence in our guys.

82-0

11/29/2012 - 02:11 PM PST

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cleepers wrote:

82-0 wrote:

Didn't Sterling also say CP3 was his favorite player years before we traded for him?

He said "You belong in Hollywood" after The hornets spanked us. Three years later, he's a Clipper.

You know who else belongs in Hollywood?

Phil Jackson. 8)

xldicelx

11/29/2012 - 02:18 PM PST

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Phil has too much connection to the FLAkers organization.... conflict of interest