How to fix Warmerise

First, I want to mention some assumptions and goals I have about this post:

1) My goal is to encourage weapon diversity. Basically I want people to be able to use different weapons for different playstyles. I want snipers to have a good sniper, heavy gunners to have a good supression weapon, et cetera. Included in this, I want every weapon to feel unique so that there's reason to buy new weapons beyond just "I want to have them all."

2) I'm assuming teams will be balanced. This will almost never happen, but it's better to plan for an ideal scenario, I feel.

3) Players will have equal performance. This one is DEFINITELY not true, but again I'd like to plan for the ideal.

4) Max has nothing better to do than fix the weapon balance. No idea on this one, I don't know Max's life. But if he's ever looking for a comprehensive list of weapon balance suggestions, they're right here.

Right on, now let's get into the fun stuff.

Each weapon will be marked in the order they appear in their catagory. I will indicate whether they are BALANCED or NOT BALANCED, then I will give a brief overview of what I think needs to be done to balance the weapon.

UMP-40 BALANCED!Leave the kriss UMP be, it's fine. It's a great weapon that can hold it's own against paid weapons in a pinch, but purchasing other weapons will give you other advantages over the UMP. This is the ideal starting weapon.

L115A3 BALANCED!Leave this where it is, it's a great long range weapon that behaves exactly as you'd expect one to.

STG-12 BALANCED!I'm calling this one balanced for one reason: I'd rather shotguns be underpowered than overpowered. Personally, I would add another pellet or two to each shot, but if that makes it too reliable of a one-hit-kill at longer ranges, then I'd rather it stay right where it is.

Mini-G BALANCED!This gun is actually REALLY strong for it's cost. It's ability to supress an area for long periods of time is exceptionally useful on maps where you need to hold a choke point, but the spin-up time will kill you if you play it like an assault rifle

BlastGun NOT BALANCED!The BlastGun has the potential to be just as competitive as a carbine except for one trait: it's insane reload time. Reducing this reload time by half would make this weapon very competitive, which it NEEDS to be, if you look at it's price.

Carbine BALANCED!A very strong, slow firing rifle that rewards great aim and punishes misses and reloads. A great weapon, with a decent price to match.

G36 BALANCED!A cross between a carbine and a UMP-40, it is THE go-to weapon for professional players. The only competition in the category of "best weapon" is the Carbine.

LSMG3 NOT BALANCED!To balance this weapon, two things need to happen:The torso and limb damage both need to go up by one point each. A torso hit is 33 damage, so 3 hits is a total of 99 damage. You'll need 4 (or two and a headshot) to kill a target. Limb damage is 25, which means you need 5(Remember, you're still alive at 0 HP). The second thing that needs to happen is to make this weapon unique. This thing costs more than the Carbine AND G36, there needs to be a reason to use it. I suggest making the bullets from the LSMG3 travel instantly to their target. This moves the gun into a position where it's equivalent to a long range battle rifle; not as good as a sniper but better than an automatic weapon.

PlasmaGun BALANCED!After MANY tweaks to this thing, it's finally in a place where nobody is complaining about it. Good shots get a reliable 2-hit-kill, bad shots die really quickly. This is a very good place for this kind of weapon.

A12 NOT BALANCED!This thing is weird. It functions a bit like a carbine 2.0, but it isn't really that good. I have two suggestions for this one, one of them is easy, the other one is insanely cool.

First suggestion: make the torso damage 26 instead of 25 for the same reason we did this to the LSMG3.

Second suggestion: again like the LSMG3, it doesn't do anything interesting. This is actually one of the hardest weapons to fix, because it's so boring to use. For that reason, and I hate myself for saying this, I think the A12 should be a fully automatic shotgun. Now I'm sure you'll hate this idea. It's harder to implement than any other change I'll suggest in this post, it's got a MASSIVE potential to be a really annoying weapon to fight against, it could very well be overpowered. All of these things are true, but it's the only way I can think of to make this thing worth using. Now, to keep this thing balanced, I'm going to compare it to the Haymaker 12 from CoD: Black ops 3, a game I have several hundred hours in. The thing that makes the gaymaker Haymaker effective isn't the damage, it's the recoil your character takes when hit. if you've got a bunch of those little hits in quick succession, it means you can't aim back. So what you do is you make the A12 have a really bad cone of fire, but give it lower recoil and a fire rate of somewhere around 3-4 shots per second. The other thing is that it needs to have low damage, but not so low that it's useless. I'd suggest 10-6-5 per pellet. This is about half of what the STG has, but it's firing more often. Definitely keep this weapon on the weaker side, though, because auto shotguns can get really powerful when used in groups.

Flamethrower NOT BALANCED!Yeah, I'm going to get some hate from this one. Right now it's very weak, but it's strength is that all the fire keeps the user masked so long as they keep moving around. I want the flamethrower to be more of a supression weapon, I want it to hold down hallways and open areas, but I DON'T want it to be killing people. Ideally, this thing would be a support weapon. Hell, even a distraction. So what I'd do is increase the range(I'm not insane, hear me out), but decrease the area of effect. Basically, smaller streams of fire that shoot farther, making it feel more like a real flamethrower than the one they have in Team Fortress 2. I would also like it to do an additional 2 ticks of 7 damage, each spread over 1 full second after the last contact of a flamethrower to simulate burn damage over time, but that might be a pipe dream. I don't know, I don't know the code.

RailRifle NOT BALANCED!Max, you and I have talked about this before: Making the RailRifle bullet travel instantly would make it WAY superior to the sniper rifle for long range engagements. The bright pink bullet is easily visible to other snipers which would it balanced against a L115A3 in skilled hands. If I'm going to pay 55,000 cash for a gun, I don't just want another L115 with zero benifits to it.

Now onto some secondary weapons.

USP NOT BALANCED!This thing is just sad. It's listed in the description as a "back up pistol," but honestly it's not good enough to justify that title. This thing is singlehandedly the worst weapon in the game, and fixing it requires another tweak of the same caliber as the A12 needed. If I had my way, the USP would keep the damage the same(or even lower it, which sounds crazy now, but it'll make sense in a second), have a 20 round magazine, with 1 extra magazine for a total of 40 rounds. But here's the important part: Make it an automatic weapon with a pretty high rate of fire, somewhere between the UMP and the Blastgun, with a recoil about equal to what the carbine has. If this weapon is supposed to be a "back up weapon" it needs to be used only in emergencies, where you just need a little more damage to finish off that enemy. This thing would become a spray and pray bullet hose to get that last hit in, but the extremely low amount of ammo would keep it from being a good primary weapon. I'm a little worried that this would fill sort of the same role that the Blast Gun does. If so, I would buff the Blast Gun in firerate and/or magazine capacity, then increase the reload time on the new USP. Basically if you can't kill a dude with a mag of this autopistol, then you deserve to die.

Revolver BALANCED!I love this thing, its the first item I buy in a new game. It's cheap and it packs a heck of a lot more power than the USP. The long reloads keep the high damage balanced.

RPG NOT BALANCED!I hate this thing. Speaking realisically, the RPG is intended to pierce tank armor using a very directed blast. Think of a grenade going off through an area the size of a quarter. What it does in this game instead is act like a grenade that flies in a straight line. This is a) unrealistic (which doesn't matter that much, but hey) and b) annoying to fight (which is much more important.) So to fix this thing, let's make it a little more realistic. I have two proposals that I think work well.

Hard fix: Remove ALL the explosive radius from this thing, but make it deal 250-300 damage. This will instantly kill soldiers on a direct hit, but more importantly, it will become THE best option for fighting vehicles. Two rockets would kill a jet from any health, but only if both were direct hits. In this case, I'd also reduce the price to something like 10,000 to reduce the vehicle spam.

Easier(?) fix: drop the damage on players to do 40 at most, then boost the damage to vehicles up to 250-300. Same problems are solved, but it's still useful as an anti soldier weapon, which is irritating, but eh.

Gravity Gun NOT BALANCED!No suprises on this one's rating of not balanced. By using it, you gain access to locations that normal players can never reach. It's just complete control over the map due to the insane mobility advantage. Honestly though, the gravity gun itself isn't the problem. The weapons used in the primary slot are. The G36 is a good gun. The G36 deployed anywhere in the map in less than 20 seconds is borderline overpowered. If I had to suggest a change, it would be to make the Gravity gun take twice as long to switch to and from. So if you're holding your G36 and you want to escape, you now have to wait for the weapon to switch for longer, so that your opponnent can get a chance to shoot back. Honestly, I wish I had a better counter for it. Nerfing it won't do much besides make the community angry. Making it a primary weapon might help, but again, the community might get up in arms about it. It's in a really weird state of being half-balanced.Good news, I came up with a better solution. To fix the gravity gun, just give it infinite ammo! Never thought I'd say that one... So here's what you do: Keep the current 5 rounds in 1 magazine, but make it so that you have zero in reserve. So once you use those 5, you're done. This is where the cool stuff happens: Instead of just being useless for the rest of that life, make it so that the Gravity Gun regenerates those 5 rounds over time. This prevents g

Slight tangent: Fixing the Gravity Gun infinite ammo bug was not a great idea. We've been using that bug for YEARS, so it had become a part of the meta. Pulling that ability from us was never going to go well, regardless of if it was a bug or a feature. I'm not saying you should add it back. It was a bug after all, and bugs need to be fixed. But what I am saying is that players don't like it when you remove a three year old habit.

Bow BALANCED!I'll be 100% real with you, I don't use this thing. I haven't even seen the new prediction arc. 101 torso damage on a slow firing, difficult to use weapon seems fine to me. I would love if someone would chime in on this and give me their perspective, but for now I'm calling it balanced.

Now on to the utility items.

Plasma Grenades BALANCED!BEEP BEEP BEEPBEEPBEEPBEEPBEEPBEEP BOOM! The starting grenades that you use until you get the trapmines, the only change I would make to them is that they should totally have a visual arc like the Bow does to show you where they're going so you don't get them stuck on the ceiling and end up killing yourself...

Trap Mines NOT BALANCED!This one is a suprisingly easy fix. The problem with them is that players will use them in two unintended methods: 1) Running away, dropping a mine, hoping it kills the chaser before the chaser kills the user, and 2) dropping a mine from the air on a group (or just one, sometimes) of players, while flying above them with a Gravity Gun. I can fix this with one step: Make the Trap Mines take time to deploy. Basically, with mines equipped, pressing V would freeze your movement and make you unable to fire for about .75 seconds. That's not a lot of time, but it's enough to make you think twice before pressing the key.

M67 BALANCED!These are really cool, and a neat alternative to Plasma Grenades. I would love to see them get a price reduction down to about 3000 because they aren't really good enough to justify costing more than the Mines.

Tomahawks NOT BALANCED!I get why people hate these things, I really do. It's annoying to die from a 101 hit that you had no idea was going to happen. Especially when you are in really close range. It's a cheap kill that takes very little skill. To fix that, let's make the Tomahawks require skill by forcing them to be longer range weapons. Add a prediction arc like on the bow when you press V. From there, add a delay before the Tomahawk can actually be thrown. Ideally, I would have the arc change from red to green when this delay is met, then require another press of the V key to actually throw. Alternately, you could have the V key be held in order to throw. If V is released when the arc is red, it isn't thrown, but if the timer has passed and the arc is green, it will throw a tomahawk. This whole system takes the killing potential of a weapon and balances it against the time it takes to deploy it.

Lastly, I want to touch on the vehicles.

Humvees BALANCED!Just a slight damage ore fire rate buff on these. They're actually really fun to be a gunner for if you've got a good driver and a steady hand. The passenger seat is somewhat useless though.

Jet Ship NOT BALANCED!I bet you guys were waiting for this one, eh? The problem with the jet is that there's no good counter to it. You can shoot it, but the only weapons that do any significant damage to it are the Mini-G and Carbine. If you're not using either of those items, you have to switch to them (assuming you own them) and potentially let the enemy gain some ground on you while you try to kill the damn thing for the third time this game. If my proposed RPG changes get implemented, then the jet recieves an instant nerf of epic proportions, at which point I'd call in balanced. If my changes are not implemented, I'd lower the health by 100 and start playing the smoking animation when it reaches 200 health. The other thing I'd do, again only if the RPG changes are not in effect, is to lower the jet's camera sensitivity by some fraction. 1/2 or 1/3 maybe. Just something to make it a little harder to pilot.

I'd love to hear some feedback on this. If you think I'm absolutely insane for one of my suggestions, please tell me and I'd honestly love to hear your perspective :)

I agree with most of the suggestions you mentioned besides Flamethrower and Tomahawks because programming them will be pain in bum because Math and Programming sometimes don't go together very well. And flamethrower flames, I'm assuming since those are particles and particles don't have rigid body but Max have a attached collider of some sort which contains the flames and does damage if player comes in contact with that colliders, it wouldn't be a good idea to 3 colliders of some sort which inflicit damage based on where the flame is (at the very end = low damage, middle = decent damage, very beginning = high damage) because the game itself will have to calculate a lot more compared to a single collider.

Tomahawks should be nerfed. Compared to other weapons like Rail rifle, Plasma, Gravity etc Tomahawk is the cheapest one with the highest damage. I don't care if Tomahawk owners get mad or rage quit because the same thing happened when gravity got nerfed and more than half of the community had to accept that nerf knowing that gravity is almost worthless. Since user gets 2 tomahawks the damage should be 50 each. You get 2 chances of doing equal damage from both of them and a decent chance to kill the player. Not only will that give the opponent a chance to kill the player but also the user to get a decent aim and not just throw toma randomly. What you mentioned might take user some time to get used and an additional time to execute such action because no one stays in their position for more than 1 second unless they are afk.

I would go on explaining other things that I don't agree on but we also gotta keep in mind the nature of this community itself. Many might take advantage of such thing and the game itself will still be unfair to new users or existing users. For example Blast gun, by far it is one of the best weapon to get do quick kills and reducing its reload time might make it a bit too OP. Same with RPG, if price is reduced and your suggestions are added than what is stopping me from making a private server with few bots and killing those bots that are using vehicles using my rpg and get 35xp easily? If not this scenario then normal gameplay example would be skygates/tpile, new users riding that jet and someone with rpg targets that jet would give them 35 xp easily and not to mention base and other maps with vehciles.

But again I do like the whole idea but I would rather leave this on community itself to decide on what weapons SHOULD be changed and what weapons SHOULDN'T be changed. I know A LOT of us don't like Tomahawks and it would be a good idea to create a separate thread about Tomahawks explaining the good and bads on it and what the community wants.

A gun is a normally tubular weapon or other device designed to discharge projectiles or other material. The projectile may be solid, liquid, gas or energy and may be free, as with bullets and artillery shells, or captive as with Taser probes and whaling harpoons. The means of projection varies according to design but is usually effected by the action of gas pressure, either produced through the rapid combustion of a propellant or compressed and stored by mechanical means, operating on the projectile inside an open-ended tube in the fashion of a piston. The confined gas accelerates the movable projectile down the length of the tube, imparting sufficient velocity to sustain the projectile's travel once the action of the gas ceases at the end of the tube or muzzle. Alternatively, acceleration via electromagnetic field generation may be employed in which case the tube may be dispensed with and a guide rail substituted.

The first devices identified as guns appeared in China around CE 1000. By the 12th century the technology was spreading through the rest of Asia, and into Europe by the 13th century.

The origin of the English word gun is considered to derive from the name given to a particular historical weapon. Domina Gunilda was the name given to a remarkably large ballista, a mechanical bolt throwing weapon of enormous size, mounted at Windsor Castle during the 14th century. This name in turn may have derived from the Old Norse woman's proper name Gunnhildr which combines two Norse words referring to battle. In any case the term gonne or gunne was applied to early hand-held firearms by the late 14th or early 15th century.

The first device identified as a gun, a bamboo tube that used gunpowder to fire a spear, appeared in China around AD 1000.[2] The Chinese had previously invented gunpowder in the 9th century.[4][5][6]

An early type of firearm (or portable gun) is the fire lance, a black-powder–filled tube attached to the end of a spear and used as a flamethrower; shrapnel was sometimes placed in the barrel so that it would fly out together with the flames.[6][7] The earliest depiction of a gunpowder weapon is the illustration of a fire-lance on a mid-10th century silk banner from Dunhuang.[8] The De'an Shoucheng Lu, an account of the siege of De'an in 1132, records that Song forces used fire-lances against the Jurchens.[9]

In due course, the proportion of saltpeter in the propellant was increased to maximise its explosive power.[7] To better withstand that explosive power, the paper and bamboo of which fire-lance barrels were originally made came to be replaced by metal.[6] And to take full advantage of that power, the shrapnel came to be replaced by projectiles whose size and shape filled the barrel more closely.[7] With this, we have the three basic features of the gun: a barrel made of metal, high-nitrate gunpowder, and a projectile which totally occludes the muzzle so that the powder charge exerts its full potential in propellant effect.[10]

One theory of how gunpowder came to Europe is that it made its way along the Silk Road through the Middle East; another is that it was brought to Europe during the Mongol invasion in the first half of the 13th century.[11][12] English Privy Wardrobe accounts list "ribaldis", a type of cannon, in the 1340s, and siege guns were used by the English at Calais in 1346.[13] The earliest surviving[clarification needed] firearm in Europe has been found from Otepää, Estonia and it dates to at least 1396.[14]

Around the late 14th century in Europe, smaller and portable hand-held cannons were developed, creating in effect the first smooth-bore personal firearm. In the late 15th century the Ottoman empire used firearms as part of its regular infantry.

The first successful rapid-fire firearm is the Gatling Gun, invented by Richard Gatling and fielded by the Union forces during the American Civil War in the 1860s.

The world's first sub-machine gun (a fully automatic firearm which fires pistol cartridges) able to be maneuvered by a single soldier is the MP18.1, invented by Theodor Bergmann. It was introduced into service in 1918 by the German Army during World War I as the primary weapon of the Stosstruppen (assault groups specialized in trench combat).

The first assault rifle was introduced during World War II by the Germans, known as the StG44. It was the first firearm which bridges the gap between long range rifles, machine guns, and short range sub-machine guns. Since the mid-20th century guns that fire beams of energy rather than solid projectiles have been developed, and also guns that can be fired by means other than the use of gunpowder.

Most guns use compressed gas confined by the barrel to propel the bullet up to high speed, though devices operating in other ways are sometimes called guns. In firearms the high-pressure gas is generated by combustion, usually of gunpowder. This principle is similar to that of internal combustion engines, except that the bullet leaves the barrel, while the piston transfers its motion to other parts and returns down the cylinder. As in an internal combustion engine, the combustion propagates by deflagration rather than by detonation, and the optimal gunpowder, like the optimal motor fuel, is resistant to detonation. This is because much of the energy generated in detonation is in the form of a shock wave, which can propagate from the gas to the solid structure and heat or damage the structure, rather than staying as heat to propel the piston or bullet. The shock wave at such high temperature and pressure is much faster than that of any bullet, and would leave the gun as sound either through the barrel or the bullet itself rather than contributing to the bullet's velocity.

A gun is a normally tubular weapon or other device designed to discharge projectiles or other material. The projectile may be solid, liquid, gas or energy and may be free, as with bullets and artillery shells, or captive as with Taser probes and whaling harpoons. The means of projection varies according to design but is usually effected by the action of gas pressure, either produced through the rapid combustion of a propellant or compressed and stored by mechanical means, operating on the projectile inside an open-ended tube in the fashion of a piston. The confined gas accelerates the movable projectile down the length of the tube, imparting sufficient velocity to sustain the projectile's travel once the action of the gas ceases at the end of the tube or muzzle. Alternatively, acceleration via electromagnetic field generation may be employed in which case the tube may be dispensed with and a guide rail substituted.

The first devices identified as guns appeared in China around CE 1000. By the 12th century the technology was spreading through the rest of Asia, and into Europe by the 13th century.

The origin of the English word gun is considered to derive from the name given to a particular historical weapon. Domina Gunilda was the name given to a remarkably large ballista, a mechanical bolt throwing weapon of enormous size, mounted at Windsor Castle during the 14th century. This name in turn may have derived from the Old Norse woman's proper name Gunnhildr which combines two Norse words referring to battle. In any case the term gonne or gunne was applied to early hand-held firearms by the late 14th or early 15th century.

The first device identified as a gun, a bamboo tube that used gunpowder to fire a spear, appeared in China around AD 1000.[2] The Chinese had previously invented gunpowder in the 9th century.[4][5][6]

An early type of firearm (or portable gun) is the fire lance, a black-powder–filled tube attached to the end of a spear and used as a flamethrower; shrapnel was sometimes placed in the barrel so that it would fly out together with the flames.[6][7] The earliest depiction of a gunpowder weapon is the illustration of a fire-lance on a mid-10th century silk banner from Dunhuang.[8] The De'an Shoucheng Lu, an account of the siege of De'an in 1132, records that Song forces used fire-lances against the Jurchens.[9]

In due course, the proportion of saltpeter in the propellant was increased to maximise its explosive power.[7] To better withstand that explosive power, the paper and bamboo of which fire-lance barrels were originally made came to be replaced by metal.[6] And to take full advantage of that power, the shrapnel came to be replaced by projectiles whose size and shape filled the barrel more closely.[7] With this, we have the three basic features of the gun: a barrel made of metal, high-nitrate gunpowder, and a projectile which totally occludes the muzzle so that the powder charge exerts its full potential in propellant effect.[10]

One theory of how gunpowder came to Europe is that it made its way along the Silk Road through the Middle East; another is that it was brought to Europe during the Mongol invasion in the first half of the 13th century.[11][12] English Privy Wardrobe accounts list "ribaldis", a type of cannon, in the 1340s, and siege guns were used by the English at Calais in 1346.[13] The earliest surviving[clarification needed] firearm in Europe has been found from Otepää, Estonia and it dates to at least 1396.[14]

Around the late 14th century in Europe, smaller and portable hand-held cannons were developed, creating in effect the first smooth-bore personal firearm. In the late 15th century the Ottoman empire used firearms as part of its regular infantry.

The first successful rapid-fire firearm is the Gatling Gun, invented by Richard Gatling and fielded by the Union forces during the American Civil War in the 1860s.

The world's first sub-machine gun (a fully automatic firearm which fires pistol cartridges) able to be maneuvered by a single soldier is the MP18.1, invented by Theodor Bergmann. It was introduced into service in 1918 by the German Army during World War I as the primary weapon of the Stosstruppen (assault groups specialized in trench combat).

The first assault rifle was introduced during World War II by the Germans, known as the StG44. It was the first firearm which bridges the gap between long range rifles, machine guns, and short range sub-machine guns. Since the mid-20th century guns that fire beams of energy rather than solid projectiles have been developed, and also guns that can be fired by means other than the use of gunpowder.

Most guns use compressed gas confined by the barrel to propel the bullet up to high speed, though devices operating in other ways are sometimes called guns. In firearms the high-pressure gas is generated by combustion, usually of gunpowder. This principle is similar to that of internal combustion engines, except that the bullet leaves the barrel, while the piston transfers its motion to other parts and returns down the cylinder. As in an internal combustion engine, the combustion propagates by deflagration rather than by detonation, and the optimal gunpowder, like the optimal motor fuel, is resistant to detonation. This is because much of the energy generated in detonation is in the form of a shock wave, which can propagate from the gas to the solid structure and heat or damage the structure, rather than staying as heat to propel the piston or bullet. The shock wave at such high temperature and pressure is much faster than that of any bullet, and would leave the gun as sound either through the barrel or the bullet itself rather than contributing to the bullet's velocity.

gravity gun-> totally agree that its unbalenced, like your suggestions but i think we would still need more to do to bakance it (hard to make i supose: take away the ability to drop mines when in flight

Trap mine->my suggestion (idk if you're saying the same) take time to the mine actually deploy and activate

toma->+1

Jet->totally agree

maybe add a slower or fewer missiles and add a seconday weapon to it, machinegun like in the humvee, aimable to were you would want, this would also implicate a little changes on the controls

about the toma and the flame that would be a little harder to implement

Doge said: Gravity isn't OP. It takes skill to use gravity and it's at a fair price as well. Removing it won't change game quality in any shape or form but make the game itself lose players.

if well used, gravity isn´t in deed OP, however, when used like I've seen it is super duper unfair

i've seen plp use it to easily get away without getting some fatal shots, although annoying af its not "dirty-gaming" despite actually me seeing him kinda like a d*ck, i think this is were he says the game would improve in quality, would be needed more skill to don´t get shot and know your way around, moving etc

The worst are those who use it to fly right above you and drop a mine on your location, or drop a mine when surounded by players and use it to escape, to me, if i was in a room with h!tler, bin laden and a guy that does that and i had two bullets, i would shoot twice<-dead joke steal

And like chrono mentioned it, the ability to place yourself anywere in the map in a few seconds is, indeed, OP, sorry to breakdwon to those who love gravity gun

Gravity is intended to give players acess to areas others can´t, or atleast easily, not to speed travel

if you think well the original purpose is already powerful if you actually know how to play,

Now, im not speacially an avid player, don´t play that much (both time and quality) but usually the players i see playing BETTER don´t use gravity, the ones who do it are usually some noobs that, by the force of this almighty objetc get Massive xp and k/d boards

good players are good with or without gravity gun, the ones who aren´t are usually the ones who care most (off course there's exceptions)

and by performance, yes it improves, less lag etc

bout gaming experience i also agree it would increase but thats my opinion :/ i've actually seen players leaving a server because a gravity user came along and ruined all the fun, im not sayin to the concept but atleast do some changes

@TheArbiter
What your wrote just tells me that you don't have a good aim. If you can't shoot at a person just because they are using gravity to escape then the fault is yours and not the person who has gravity gun. Not to forget the armory also gives player the ability to place themselves at opposite team spawns but gravity just makes it to travel faster and escape noobs who are camping outside the base with mines. Gravity doesn't give lag? I don't know where you got that analogy from. Does shooting bullets give you lag as well? Implying that majority of the people who use gravity are noobs is wrong. Gravity was used in competitive clan wars and 1v1's. To me you are basically saying "people who use gravity are noobs and those who don't are pro".
I can play with and without gravity and can do better kills than people who don't use gravity and those who do use gravity because I've a decent aim And many of us had to wait months just to get gravity so almost all of us have earned it (old players who has gravity before).
Now players leaving just because someone joined a server and had gravity just tells me that those players are either butthurt because they don't have gravity or they aren't good at aiming and killing players with gravity guns.
I'm fine if Max removes the gravity gun from the shop but I'm not fine with if he takes gravity gun away from players who had to put in months of gameplay just to obtain gravity gun.

Doge said: @TheArbiter What your wrote just tells me that you don't have a good aim. If you can't shoot at a person just because they are using gravity to escape then the fault is yours and not the person who has gravity gun. Not to forget the armory also gives player the ability to place themselves at opposite team spawns but gravity just makes it to travel faster and escape noobs who are camping outside the base with mines. Gravity doesn't give lag? I don't know where you got that analogy from. Does shooting bullets give you lag as well? Implying that majority of the people who use gravity are noobs is wrong. Gravity was used in competitive clan wars and 1v1's. To me you are basically saying "people who use gravity are noobs and those who don't are pro". I can play with and without gravity and can do better kills than people who don't use gravity and those who do use gravity because I've a decent aim And many of us had to wait months just to get gravity so almost all of us have earned it (old players who has gravity before). Now players leaving just because someone joined a server and had gravity just tells me that those players are either butthurt because they don't have gravity or they aren't good at aiming and killing players with gravity guns. I'm fine if Max removes the gravity gun from the shop but I'm not fine with if he takes gravity gun away from players who had to put in months of gameplay just to obtain gravity gun.

1st-> congrats :) i do have a bad aim, but i've seen snipers who don´t and the amount of shots they had to take to just kill a guy who was fleeing with grav was just descommunal, and im talking about some good snipers that actually had some pretty match results, for instae if you're using an auto, no problem to hit the target thats for sure

2nd->"Not to forget the armory also gives player the ability to place themselves at opposite team spawns but gravity just makes it to travel faster and escape noobs who are camping outside the base with mines" no ones is talking about the armory, adress the topic pls, besides, mines can be destroyed, and in base? if you'de tell me idk, bunker, i would agree, mines there are a total bummer, but on the fase? thats more open space than you could wish

3rd->I dind´t said gravity doesn´t give lag, i said the opposite, "anology" isn´t suitable to the sentece idea/logic...and to me, no, it doesn´t give lag, but the velocity that impels the playercan actually do some dmg to the fps in-game to SOME players, not all, not none

if you can´t understand the difference from the bullets speed wich is, indeed a non-playable colidable object and a player, wich is playable then you'd think there's no difference, but who knows im new at this kinda stuff and maybe you know better idk

4th->the fact that it was used in competitive 1v1 matches doesn´t really brings nothing to the discussion, its neither a fact or a conclusion, its a fallacy, the fact that both players need to use it in a 1v1 to balance the game, if youp're impliying that, then that only gives me theh conclusion that its indeed OP

5th->never said who uses gravity gun=noob, just sayin that the use of the gravity doesn´t really need any skill, its rather an easy way to be more powerful no need skill what so ever

6th->earning it? once again thats not a reason why its good to keep it up in the game, but pls, feel free to give some good arguments, maybe you can change my mind

to conclude...i don´t say that gravity gun doesn´t help to win a match, doesn´t does any good

My main point is

IMOthe removal of the gravity gun would in fact make the game be more competitive, promove skill, and take away some other stuff that players complain like the ability to fly over and drop a mine, or is that a pretty cool function to you?

ps- now im talking serious, don´t respond me here, respond via DM, this topic is not meant for this chit-chat, ill delete this as soon as you (if) send me the message to debate

Doge said: @TheArbiter What your wrote just tells me that you don't have a good aim. If you can't shoot at a person just because they are using gravity to escape then the fault is yours and not the person who has gravity gun. Not to forget the armory also gives player the ability to place themselves at opposite team spawns but gravity just makes it to travel faster and escape noobs who are camping outside the base with mines. Gravity doesn't give lag? I don't know where you got that analogy from. Does shooting bullets give you lag as well? Implying that majority of the people who use gravity are noobs is wrong. Gravity was used in competitive clan wars and 1v1's. To me you are basically saying "people who use gravity are noobs and those who don't are pro". I can play with and without gravity and can do better kills than people who don't use gravity and those who do use gravity because I've a decent aim And many of us had to wait months just to get gravity so almost all of us have earned it (old players who has gravity before). Now players leaving just because someone joined a server and had gravity just tells me that those players are either butthurt because they don't have gravity or they aren't good at aiming and killing players with gravity guns. I'm fine if Max removes the gravity gun from the shop but I'm not fine with if he takes gravity gun away from players who had to put in months of gameplay just to obtain gravity gun.

1st-> congrats :) i do have a bad aim, but i've seen snipers who don´t and the amount of shots they had to take to just kill a guy who was fleeing with grav was just descommunal, and im talking about some good snipers that actually had some pretty match results, for instae if you're using an auto, no problem to hit the target thats for sure

2nd->"Not to forget the armory also gives player the ability to place themselves at opposite team spawns but gravity just makes it to travel faster and escape noobs who are camping outside the base with mines" no ones is talking about the armory, adress the topic pls, besides, mines can be destroyed, and in base? if you'de tell me idk, bunker, i would agree, mines there are a total bummer, but on the fase? thats more open space than you could wish

3rd->I dind´t said gravity doesn´t give lag, i said the opposite, "anology" isn´t suitable to the sentece idea/logic...and to me, no, it doesn´t give lag, but the velocity that impels the playercan actually do some dmg to the fps in-game to SOME players, not all, not none

if you can´t understand the difference from the bullets speed wich is, indeed a non-playable colidable object and a player, wich is playable then you'd think there's no difference, but who knows im new at this kinda stuff and maybe you know better idk

4th->the fact that it was used in competitive 1v1 matches doesn´t really brings nothing to the discussion, its neither a fact or a conclusion, its a fallacy, the fact that both players need to use it in a 1v1 to balance the game, if youp're impliying that, then that only gives me theh conclusion that its indeed OP

5th->never said who uses gravity gun=noob, just sayin that the use of the gravity doesn´t really need any skill, its rather an easy way to be more powerful no need skill what so ever

6th->earning it? once again thats not a reason why its good to keep it up in the game, but pls, feel free to give some good arguments, maybe you can change my mind

to conclude...i don´t say that gravity gun doesn´t help to win a match, doesn´t does any good

My main point is

IMOthe removal of the gravity gun would in fact make the game be more competitive, promove skill, and take away some other stuff that players complain like the ability to fly over and drop a mine, or is that a pretty cool function to you?

ps- now im talking serious, don´t respond me here, respond via DM, this topic is not meant for this chit-chat, ill delete this as soon as you (if) send me the message to debate

1st: Trying to shoot a person using gravity with a sniper. That's like hitting yourself on the foot. You wanna talk about really good snipers? I can assure you no one on here is as good in sniping as Apster. It doesn't matter what gun you use, what height you fly on or how fast you are walking or running using gravity, Apster WILL get a headshot. That's called a good sniper. Not some wannabe's pro who can't aim yet alone use sniper properly.

2nd: I'm staying on the topic. And I'm not talking about base or Road. Who the heck plays on those maps anyways other than new players? I'm talking about secert lab, Area56, Bunker, and other small maps.

3rd: Just to quote:

and by performance, yes it improves, less lag etc

I can assure you using gravity doesn't cause lag in any form or shape. Yes, I know more about this because I've taken physics and I know how bullet physics work in game development as well. By lag I mean dropping your FPS from 180 to 50, that's what I call lag. Not dropping FPS from 90 to 85.

4th: What? Now you are just denying facts and calling them fallacy without any evidence? My implications doesn't mean that you can assume whatever you want. That's like saying if the community is bad then the game must be bad as well.

5th: LOL. I can see you never had the chance to use gravity or even if you did you just ran around with it like a normal noob would do.

6th: Hm, so you are saying that it would be OK for me to take away every gun that you bought and act as if nothing happened? I'm sure you will be fine with it. Right?

Removal of the gun from a game doesn't mean that players will improve. That's like saying taking food away from a fat person will make the person skinny but the down side is it will kill that fat person because of starvation. Skill comes from understanding how the game works and not by using some gun.

But it seems even you don't have the skills yet alone a decent KD to prove your own point. I would consider your oppinions if and only if you have some good KD then I would be like "Hey he might be right. He isn't using Gravity or any OP weapons" but you can't even shoot with normal weapons so how would you understand the good and bads for gravity.

So saying my argument is invalid when you are the one who doesn't have basic knowledge of game development and physics and how competition and skills work just makes your so-called argument invalid and biased.

This is exactly the discussion I wanted to see from this thread, I'm very happy to see people debating the topic without resorting to insults. Huge thanks to everyone involved!

There were a lot of comments here while I was away, so I'll try to adress them all. Sorry if I miss any

Zero said:(regarding the flamethrower) it wouldn't be a good idea to 3 colliders of some sort which inflicit damage based on where the flame is (at the very end = low damage, middle = decent damage, very beginning = high damage) because the game itself will have to calculate a lot more compared to a single collider.

I agree, but I never suggested that I wanted that. I don't know if I explained poorly or if you misunderstood (or both), so let me try again: I never wanted the damage to be changed, I think 7 is actually alright. What I want is for the colliders that the flamethrower shoots to go farther away from the player before despawning. I also want the colliders and the flame particles to be smaller so that it looks more like this and less like this. Hopefully that makes sense!

Zero said:Tomahawks should be nerfed. Compared to other weapons like Rail rifle, Plasma, Gravity etc Tomahawk is the cheapest one with the highest damage. I don't care if Tomahawk owners get mad or rage quit because the same thing happened when gravity got nerfed and more than half of the community had to accept that nerf knowing that gravity is almost worthless. Since user gets 2 tomahawks the damage should be 50 each. You get 2 chances of doing equal damage from both of them and a decent chance to kill the player

Making the tomahawks take time to throw gives the target a chance to retaliate. If it takes a half-second to throw a tomahawk, that's a half second that the target has to put some damage into the thrower and make their aim go all over the place due to the recoil, if not outright kill the person. If you read the very first goal I listed in my post, I want to encourage weapon diversity. That means making every weapon usable in specific situations. Dropping the Tomahawk to 50 damage a) wouldn't kill anyone because 50*2<101 HP and b) will make them outright worse than the trapmines, and possibly the grenades. I like the tomahawks as a concept, but they need to be balanced instead of being nerfed into oblivion. I'll touch on your gravity points later.

Zero said:For example Blast gun, by far it is one of the best weapon to get do quick kills and reducing its reload time might make it a bit too OP.

If it was going to be OP with a reload reduction, it would be just as common now as the Carbine/G36. As it stands, the Blast is worse than both of these guns. I made these a while back, they're graphs of how long it takes to empty one magazine and how long it takes to reload. Note that the Blast dumps a magazine faster than any other weapon and also takes the longest to reload(well it almost ties the carbine), despite doing less DPS than the other big two.

Zero said:Same with RPG, if price is reduced and your suggestions are added than what is stopping me from making a private server with few bots and killing those bots that are using vehicles using my rpg and get 35xp easily?

What's stopping you from doing that now? My RPG changes aren't the problem in this scenario, the fact that it's possible to farm XP in a private server is the problem. An exploit in the game is no reason to willfully ignore weapon imbalance.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but gaining XP in private TDM servers is now disabled. This needs to be expanded to all private servers, in my opinion. "but wait!" I hear you say, "What about sky?!?!?!?!1?!?" I have numerous complanints about sky, none of which I'll get into here, but it does raise a good point: Do we eliminate the ability to earn XP in private Elim servers? I don't know the answer to that one, admittedly.

Farzblack said:(Wikipedia article on guns)

If you're interested in this sort of thing, the wikipedia articles on the M4, M1 Garand, and the P90 are all good reads :)

STERBEN99 said:usp->+1 the 20 clip idea -1 to increasing firerate

Trap mine->my suggestion (idk if you're saying the same) take time to the mine actually deploy and activate

Jet->totally agreemaybe add a slower or fewer missiles and add a seconday weapon to it, machinegun like in the humvee, aimable to were you would want, this would also implicate a little changes on the controls

-can you expand on why you disagree with the USP being an automatic sidearm?-Yes, that is what I suggested for the trapmine.-Asking for a machine gun turret is being a little greedy for the jet. That kind of thing is not easy to make. Honestly, if there were a viable counterweapon to the jet it would be almost completely balanced as it is.

Zero said:1st: Trying to shoot a person using gravity with a sniper. That's like hitting yourself on the foot. You wanna talk about really good snipers? I can assure you no one on here is as good in sniping as Apster. It doesn't matter what gun you use, what height you fly on or how fast you are walking or running using gravity, Apster WILL get a headshot. That's called a good sniper. Not some wannabe's pro who can't aim yet alone use sniper properly.

Yes, because if Apster can do it, obviously everyone can. Weapon choice is crucial, however. Using a sniper rifle on a mobile target is a dangerous choice. You're far better off using an automatic weapon in that scenario.

Zero said:2nd: I'm staying on the topic. And I'm not talking about base or Road. Who the heck plays on those maps anyways other than new players? I'm talking about secert lab, Area56, Bunker, and other small maps.

I play on every map except SL and SC. Gotta get a change of scenery sometimes, y'know? The gravity is useful on any map, and more so than using the armory. The Armory just puts you in a random spawnpoint of the enemy, it doesn't put you exactly where you want to be, on top of a tower overlooking the enemy spawnpoints like the Gravity gun can.

Zero said:I can assure you using gravity doesn't cause lag in any form or shape. Yes, I know more about this because I've taken physics and I know how bullet physics work in game development as well.

You're not wrong. The gravity won't cause any framerate lag. If someone is having network lag and using the gravity then they'll ruberband around a lot and be really annoying to hit. That one I can confirm myself. Also, I have taken physics as well, which puts me in a pretty good position to call you out on that claim. Taking a phyiscs class has no relevance to this conversation.

Ultimately, I think both of you are debating the wrong thing. The question isn't "should the gravity be here or not," but rather it's what can we do to balance it against the other secondary items, while still keeping it fun and interesting to use.

I think I responded to every comment that contributed something (and one that didn't) so I'm going to head out and do some homework now. Thanks all for the feedback, and if you want to add your own, please do! Especially if you disagree with me, I love having my views challenged :)