Radical difference between East and West regarding relationships and marriage

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You brought up another point I find confusingly intriguing. In regards to your friend breaking off an engagement with a man she had a 3 year relationship. To which I find this to me more to her fault (no offense to your friend) than to her mate's. Because I can't fathom how she could be with this man for that long and not realize or believe to change his traditional ways. I think her situation is one that occurs in America often as well. For both career minded men and women whom aspire to influence their mate to settle out of their career. I'm curious though. Do you know whether this man of hers was traditional in other ways too or was it only in his ideas of her staying at home?

Good advice on the language studies. I have put quite a bit of time into it already. Anything from movies, college textbooks, reference books, audio tapes, rosetta stone, videogames, and movies. I'm trying to surround myself as much as possible with the language. Which it all combined still isn't even a fraction as useful as actually being immersed in the culture. Yet it's helping as a basic guideline for grasping the language. Plus I'm confident I can get around town in Japan without having to speak English. The language studies have been contributing to why I've learned so much about the culture and have arised with the questions I do. Books such as and of the ilk of "Japanese in Mangaland" tell a bit about the culture of Japan and set me on a personal path to fill in the blanks for what it doesn't answer upon.

Thanks again Chidoriashi. You have been doing a great job of putting my mind at ease. I'm not going to try and trap you in a chain reaction of questioning. Yet, any tips on what to expect, say, or do (in general of course) for picking up a girl at an izakaya? Is that even such a place for meeting girls at or would I just have to stick with clubs?

Oh yeah. Slightly unrelated question. What's the deal with most Japanese women not liking irezumi (tattoos?) Is it a Yakuza thing? I have 2 tattoos and am hoping it won't be an issue with deterring women.

Well, in regards to my friend, i do not think it is really a who's fault situation to her, she realized that he is not the right person for her in the end. I honestly do not know all the details upon what brought her to this revelation however. Relationships are complicated. Not to mention it was quite some time ago and at the time, it just did not seem like it was right for me to press her for information. I suppose I could ask her again now. Anyway she made the right decision I think (if it was going to end) to end it before they got married rather than after.

For meeting girls, hmm.. izakaya.. yeah its possible, its not my favorite place. But really to each his own I guess. Also in many izakayas everybody is sectioned off, and people are not really approachable most of the time. Regular bars are better.
Oh and for me.. usually I have dated people I have met through a friend, or non public bar related social event.

If you feel most comfortable in the bar scene though I imagine you would have the most luck at "gaijin bars" (places where lots of foreigners are known to hang out, or where the owner is an English speaking foreigner). Japanese that go to those bars usually already have some interest in foreigners, for one reason or the other.

Remember there is a good chunk of Japanese women who could really care less about foreigners, let alone consider dating one. Therefore you are likely to have more luck at international events, and places where the patrons are likely to already have an inclination towards you.

There also are probably some Japanese women who would not mind dating a foreigner, but do not speak English or another foreign language and therefore really do not consider it a possibility. So meaning unless your Japanese is good enough to conduct a meaningful romantic relationship with someone, those people will fall out of your loop. Not to mention these types probably have a very limited understanding about you which would make things even more challenging.

Another thing I should mention, is Japan is a place just like any other. It has its good points and its flaws as well. So do not put Japan on a pedestal, because you may be disappointed in some aspects. Be prepared for all kinds of treatment too. Some treatment will be good, some will be bad, but a lot of how you feel in situations will fall solely upon your attitude and how much you try to understand things from their perspective. So you need to be able to remain positive, especially at times when things do not meet your expectations and you become disappointed.

And the tattoo thing.. as far as I know it is generally frowned upon not so much in the aspect of dating, but ones appearance at the workplace. So if the tattoos can be covered up it is probably not a big deal. I really do not think it will affect your dating life.

What's the deal with most Japanese women not liking irezumi (tattoos?) Is it a Yakuza thing? I have 2 tattoos and am hoping it won't be an issue with deterring women.

Many traditional/old fashioned Japanese women (and men) may have negative views regarding tattoos. I don't think it's anything that's unique to Japan, though. If some woman doesn't like your tattoos? Too bad. Find someone who does. Also, when I see someone's tattoo, there is a big difference in what my opinion of that person would be if the tattoo is THUG LIFE across their belly compared to some tacky tribal pattern or a Tweety Bird on their arm.

Re : dating Japanese women, why is it that it is always the non-Japanese who has to cater to Japanese women's every quirk and whim? Although you may be a foreigner in Japan, the basic rules are the same, no? Cultural differences? VERY much blown out of proportion if you ask me. People just need to be courteous just like they would in their home countries.

The last refuge of the insomniac is a sense of superiority to the sleeping world.My Blog

Though I also believe that no matter what the culture is, there are always people whom don't share the same mindset as the rest of their peers.

Agreed! But while they may not share the same mindset as there peers, they may very well receive peer pressure to conform, it could also be said that the reason Japanese people marry foreigners and live outside Japan, is because they escape this peer pressure, and can express themselves and live a more free and relaxed relationship with there western partner. Living in Japan, they may never escape this peer pressure to conform, after marriage and children, the children enter the educations system, the peer pressure will be there for the mother to conform.

Originally Posted by ShadowSpirit

It is in that from which I hope I am able to find such a woman like that in Japan and to somehow draw out her sincere honne.

I fully understand, though it can be very difficult, public displays of affection are frowned on, so it would prove difficult to offer a wife a simple kiss good bye, when she goes off to work, or an appointment etc, trying to separate what she can and cannot do is very difficult, because the type of relationship you are looking for, means that any wife, would have to conform to what is expected of her in public, but behind closed doors in your own house, she should be more relaxed with the type of relationship you share, and not do things out of an obligation.

Originally Posted by ShadowSpirit

Me knowing things like this will make it that much easier for me to help liberate a Japanese woman's mind to not be subservient. I want an equal, not a slave.

But they do not regard themselves as being a slave, as mentioned in my last post, there are Japanese women who do not want to follow the traditional role of housewife, and want some thing better, but the reality is, that they feel guilty and lazy, when they are not doing what they regard as normal. So it should be remembered that while there are Japanese women who say they want a different type of relationship, and may even like the idea of the prospect of change, in most cases they would find it very difficult, if not impossible to change.
Trying to liberate a Japanese women may be much harder than just accepting her and how things really are, following this route of liberating a Japanese women can bring much stress and frustration for yourself, I should know, I have been married to a Japanese women for 7 years, while my wife does not like many aspects of the culture, and the requirement to conform, she feels obligated to do so, because if she did any different, she would be hammered down by her peers.

Originally Posted by ShadowSpirit

I like Japanese women for their physical beauty, their humbleness, their delicate nature, fun-loving hobbies, and metaphorical innocence. That is what I'm looking to marry into. I don't want a woman who panders to my needs by obligation.

OK! In most cases a Japanese wife would be looking for a husband to provide for her, and any children that come along, a husband being a good provider will be very important to her, while you may be happy to assist with the housework, cook and look after the children, a Japanese wife may be pleased and happy that she has a husband, who will share in these tasks, though she may also still have strong feelings, that her husband is failing in his "obligation" to be a good provider, because she may feel its her duty to do these tasks around the house while her husband should be working to provide for the family, so its not just about a wife's "obligations".

Thanks, but it isn't necessary to probe your friend for more information regarding her ex. It was just a fleeting curiosity I had. Nothing more.

I do feel more comfortable in a bar scene but hadn't realized that izakayas are confined or sectioned off. It does make sense now that you mention it. I appreciate the advice on international venues. I will keep those options open and look more for places of that nature.

I'm certainly not putting Japan on a pedestal. I'm a well traveled man who is well aware that there are positives and negatives to every culture. I have just been focusing my energy on hopes I have for Japan, but certainly do not have any expectations. I acknowledge there are things that will both positively surprise me and negatively impact me when reaching Japan. I will only truly understand those things when I experience it for myself. I do appreciate your concern. I'm just acting like a kid with a keen curiosity and fascination. I know that Japan is romanticized in America and its difficult not to be a bit excited. I also know that only the surface of Japan is advertised. I had lived in Hawaii and learned much about what lies below the surface there as well. A great place if you're a tourist just passing through, but if you live there you find out that there is much about it that is almost unbearable.

In regards to the irezumi. I'm fortunate that you have confidence it might not be an issue with me dating. There is something I can't quite shake off my mind about it. On my wrist, I have the kanji for 気 tattooed. I got it ages ago, long before it was ever a white-boy fad to have Asian characters tattooed on the body. I never thought I would end up in Japan nor China and I didn't think much of it at the time. Yet now as an adult whom is about to be going to Japan, I'm embarrassed to have it. Because it's like I'm advertising. "Hey everybody! Look at me! I'm a white guy who thinks I will be accepted by Asian cultures because I got kanji tattooed on me." I'd rather not be giving off that impression to people.

Ashikaga:

I agree with your assessment about not having to cater to every quirk and whim. I do feel that it is a privilege for me to be a guest in country foreign to my own and that it requires greater responsibilities from myself. I should hold myself to a higher standard to learn about the customs, absorb as much of the language as I reasonably can, and flex to the reasonable demands of the Japanese woman. However, I'm not going to expect it to be a one-sided effort. I recognize that the woman is sacrificing a lot by rebelling against her upbringing to long for a romantic relationship. I feel a lot of credit is due on that factor in itself. Overall, I agree with your comment.

jt9258:

You brought up quite a few good points. It is very much appreciated. You mentioned this one last, but I wanted to address it first.... I do realize that there are obligations I have to the woman. The only reason I haven't discussed them is because what I'm willing to provide just didn't fit into the context of my inquiries. I have stable income, no debt, and am in an established career path. If I didn't feel I could provide for a Japanese woman, I certainly wouldn't bother even trying. Security is a moot point for me. I want the impossible dream. That is, to find a woman who falls for me not because she knows how financially stable I am, but because I make her emotionally happy. I know this is asking much. Since what reasonable thinking person would voluntarily put themselves with a person that can't provide for them. Yet that is the sacrificial test involved. If the woman figured. "Well, he makes me happy and if we plan together, we'll survive in this world." Then that is a philosophy I would be very happy for her to have. I wouldn't want her to know that I'm actually quite capable of supporting her for life. At least I wouldn't want to advertise that up front. This probably isn't going to be one of those things I'll be able to avoid getting around. Yet I've gone out with women before who didn't know much about what I do but just knew I wasn't in any danger of ending up on the streets. It's very possible for a successful businessman to be deep in debt and for a woman to inadvertently marry into that. I'd like a woman to take a risk on me based on the idea that I may possibly be in debt, but only to find out that I'm actually way far from it. Again, this is all wishful thinking (in regards to the woman appreciating me on an emotional level that is. There isn't any wishful thinking about my finances, I am well secured.)

You make a point about the slavery mindset as well. I was referring more to the women who think that I expect them to clean or take care of me in such a manner. My mother was an old-fashion woman who exhibited the same mindset as many of these Japanese women. My mother felt unuseful if she wasn't cleaning the house or cooking meals. It took me many years to understand that it was what she felt she is best at and that she wasn't happy if she wasn't taking care of the house. I'm certain that many Japanese women feel the same way in this situation. Again, I just wanted the woman to know that if being a housewife isn't what she enjoys doing, that she certainly doesn't have to be limited to it. That I won't think less of her if she decides to go to school full time, gets a job, or if she doesn't make the house spotless at all times. I just didn't want her thinking that I expect these things of her and that I would judge her based on her performance in these areas.

You make another valid point about the peer pressure and lack of PDA. I have considered that thought in my mind and don't find it too difficult to master the prediciment. I will do what I can to avoid putting her in an awkward situation where she may be scrutinized by her peers. I also have considered that to be emotionally open that the potential girlfriend/wife may request that she be taken out of the Japanese environment completely so that she can develop a comfort for casuality that she otherwise would not be allowed to practice.

I do realize that there are obligations I have to the woman. The only reason I haven't discussed them is because what I'm willing to provide just didn't fit into the context of my inquiries.

In the eyes of a Japanese women its not about a potential husband being willing to provide, its about him proving that he can be a good provider, and in many cases there would be a need for a potential husband to prove himself to be a good provider. It should be remembered that when you marry a Japanese women, in many cases the parents need to know that you can provide for there daughter, the spoken word in these cases is not enough, which means they may very well need to see that you can be a good provider, and worthy of there respect, actions speak louder than words.

Originally Posted by ShadowSpirit

That is, to find a woman who falls for me not because she knows how financially stable I am, but because I make her emotionally happy. I know this is asking much. Since what reasonable thinking person would voluntarily put themselves with a person that can't provide for them.

For Japanese women money is king. So while a husband may be able to provide today, and for many years to come, should a time arise in the future, where her husband cannot provide for her and the children, the wife can, and will end the marriage, just as easy as they entered the marriage.

Originally Posted by ShadowSpirit

Yet that is the sacrificial test involved. If the woman figured. "Well, he makes me happy and if we plan together, we'll survive in this world."

Planning together is not some thing Japanese women would do, making decisions for the family on your own, is what she will be looking for, trying to do things on a joint bases, would only be viewed by a wife, as a sign of weakness on your part, and remember in many cases its regarded as normal for a wife to look after your monthly salary, handing back to her husband an allowance (Pocket Money).

Originally Posted by ShadowSpirit

Again, this is all wishful thinking (in regards to the woman appreciating me on an emotional level that is. There isn't any wishful thinking about my finances, I am well secured.)

The toughest part will be, how you will actually know if she loves you emotionally, or if her love is based on your status and financial position, too many men have fallen for the charms of a Japanese women, only to find that
after marriage and children the emotional loving relationship they shared has gone.

Originally Posted by ShadowSpirit

You make a point about the slavery mindset as well. I was referring more to the women who think that I expect them to clean or take care of me in such a manner.

Its not what you want or expect your wife to do, its what they will do for you, as they regard it as being disrespectful to do anything less, for them it will be normal to do things for you.

Originally Posted by ShadowSpirit

Again, I just wanted the woman to know that if being a housewife isn't what she enjoys doing, that she certainly doesn't have to be limited to it. That I won't think less of her if she decides to go to school full time, gets a job, or if she doesn't make the house spotless at all times.

It may very well be possible to find a Japanese women who would like to continue with some form of career or employment, though a lot will also depend on her mother's views, of her daughters role after marriage, because many Japanese women still take the lead from there mother's, so should your wife continue to work or seek work after marriage, it could send a message to the parents that you are not a good provider.

Originally Posted by ShadowSpirit

I just didn't want her thinking that I expect these things of her and that I would judge her based on her performance in these areas.

As long as you provide for her and the children you have, it will not be about you judging her on her performance, though your ability to provide will be judged not only by her, but her parents, while you are providing for the family, you will gain her respect, though fail to provide and its finished.

Originally Posted by ShadowSpirit

You make another valid point about the peer pressure and lack of PDA. I have considered that thought in my mind and don't find it too difficult to master the prediciment. I will do what I can to avoid putting her in an awkward situation where she may be scrutinized by her peers.

While you may not have a problem mastering different situations, so as not to create a problem for your wife, I feel that you are expecting her to follow two different set of rules, the first being that outside your home, she would follow the Japanese rules, though when at home, she could relax and be more open to live a western style loving relationship, and not just be a slave to you.
While this may sound ideal, in practice it can be very difficult, to impossible, for a Japanese women, to follow this type of life style, this is because as you may already know, Japan is group orientated, everything in life is done on a group bases, Uchi/Soto, so while your wife may be in the comfort of her own home, if located within Japan, then she would be living within the Japanese group, so she would feel, that she has to follow the rules appropriate for living within this group, that is why Japanese people can relax more outside Japan, because they are completely outside the group.

Originally Posted by ShadowSpirit

I also have considered that to be emotionally open that the potential girlfriend/wife may request that she be taken out of the Japanese environment completely so that she can develop a comfort for casuality that she otherwise would not be allowed to practice.

Yes! This could very well be a possibility, there are many Japanese women who want to live outside Japan with a western husband, though while this will allow a potential girlfriend/wife to live a more casual life style, her roots are still within the Japanese group way of thinking, and there may always be feelings of wanting to return to Japan, responsibilities to her aging parents etc.
However there are men who have lived good lives with there Japanese wives outside Japan for many years, many then return to Japan as a family, though some men have also lost there wives, because the Japanese wife has returned to Japan without saying anything to her husband.
The reason for this, is that Japanese people, do not like creating or being a problem to others, so while a wife may appear to be happy living outside Japan, she may over time develop the need to return to Japan, she will feel that to explain her feelings to her husband would only bring him trouble so for her its better to just leave without saying anything.

JT9258> While I know you speak the truth when you post and your advice is solid, I must interject that your observations (as mine too) are still subjective. Many of the posters on this forum who have talked about their international/marriage and relationship, tell a different story..as well as all of the international married couples I know personally. And I also even I know some of those couples parents and how they view things.. So for ShadowSpirit, when he does come here, get married etc.. he may in fact experience things just as you say, but remember he may not too. Though there are generalizations that of course can be made about Japan, and Japanese society, we cannot forget that those are still generalizations and never absolute. Every family has some differences, even in a country such as Japan. So I want to encourage ShawdowSpirit to come here and experience it for himself with an open mind, before he draws any concrete conclusions.

While I know you speak the truth when you post and your advice is solid, I must interject that your observations (as mine too) are still subjective.

Thank you! And yes I would agree.

Originally Posted by Chidoriashi

So for ShadowSpirit, when he does come here, get married etc.. he may in fact experience things just as you say, but remember he may not too.
Though there are generalizations that of course can be made about Japan, and Japanese society, we cannot forget that those are still generalizations and never absolute. Every family has some differences, even in a country such as Japan. So I want to encourage ShawdowSpirit to come here and experience it for himself with an open mind, before he draws any concrete conclusions.

This is also true, but there will be no way of knowing in advance how things will turn out, I do agree that when ShadowSpirit comes here, that he should approach his relationships, with an open mind, and experience Japan for himself, with the knowledge of what may or may not happen, and then decide for himself if he still wants marriage, with a Japanese women.

I don't know. I continue to appreciate Chidoriashi's optimism. Yet overall there has been a dreary picture painted about marrying a Japanese woman for what my personal needs may desire. This is of course my own problem and I'm not afforded anything more than what is offered. I do believe every culture has its anomalies and I was just trying to find out how likely it would be for me to find such an anomaly. If I have to stick with the more international hangouts to find such a woman, so be it. If I can't find what I'm looking for regardless, then I guess that is just the way things will turn out. Yet I dread the idea of being with a woman who has the mindset to just up and leave me when she feels I'm not providing a good life for her; whether I can or cannot provide is irrelevent. It's the principle in itself that upsets me. Cause I would be there for her through better or worse. If she was paralyzed, or impaired, rich or poor; I wouldn't turn my back on her. I expect the same respect. This isn't to say I'm going to fail in life. Yet what if I was dependent on stock options? Would she leave me during this time when the economy is dropping and people are finding themselves struggling for work? Things like this plague my mind, and as I said, whether I am well established or not. I just think it's messed up that she would up and leave at a moment's whim.

All of this discussion is relative when one considers that I'm going to Japan regardless. I was just hoping to get an idea of what to expect. I can't say enough how much I appreciate the insight I've been given thus far, whether positive or negative. I certainly do not ask for anybody to candy-coat things for me. I need brutal honesty and am fortunate to get some of that. It would have been nice if the general consesus came out in a different direction from what it has. I guess I'll keep jt9258's cautions to mind and Chidoriashi's points to consideration.

I don't know. I continue to appreciate Chidoriashi's optimism. Yet overall there has been a dreary picture painted about marrying a Japanese woman for what my personal needs may desire.

I can only appologize, because the reality of a large proportion of Japanese women cannot handle some thing different than what is regarded as normal for them here, even if they dream of change.

Originally Posted by ShadowSpirit

I do believe every culture has its anomalies and I was just trying to find out how likely it would be for me to find such an anomaly.

The problem is as mentioned, you may never really know what a Japanese women will be like in a marriage until you are married, though I do feel that it may be better to actually explain what you would expect from a wife before marriage, its no good waiting until you have been married a year, for your wife to say "I thought you would not want sex!", its no good saying anything to defend your reasons, or thinking because in many cases the reply will be, "Go and get a girlfreind".

Originally Posted by ShadowSpirit

Yet I dread the idea of being with a woman who has the mindset to just up and leave me when she feels I'm not providing a good life for her; whether I can or cannot provide is irrelevent. It's the principle in itself that upsets me. Cause I would be there for her through better or worse.

I understand, and can fully appreciate how much this would cause any western man pain, but the reality of the Japanese is that they do not want to bring trouble to other's, and that includes her a husband, though a wife would not want a husband giving her trouble, even if it's only to say you do not like what she has cooked, its better to just eat it and hide the trueth.
"For Better or worse" does not really exist in the concept of many Japanese marriages, if a husband cannot fullfill his role as provider, in many cases he will not be regarded as a good husband, and could very well result in divorce.

Originally Posted by ShadowSpirit

If she was paralyzed, or impaired, rich or poor; I wouldn't turn my back on her. I expect the same respect. This isn't to say I'm going to fail in life. Yet what if I was dependent on stock options? Would she leave me during this time when the economy is dropping and people are finding themselves struggling for work?

It does not matter what kind of work you do, as long as they see the money coming in and it increases each year, they will never complain and appear to be happy, though this happiness is no guarantee that there will be an intimate relationship between husband and wife.

Originally Posted by ShadowSpirit

I certainly do not ask for anybody to candy-coat things for me. I need brutal honesty and am fortunate to get some of that. It would have been nice if the general consesus came out in a different direction from what it has.

When you get to Japan, you will definately notice that the women will have an interest in you, but then that is because you are not Japanese, just take things slowly, and never be afraid to say what you are looking for in a wife, should you meet some one that you would consider marriage with, this may mean that many will never be seen again, but then you will know that they were not right for you.

My opinion

Firstly, Maciamo thanks for starting this thread. It is quite interesting and then various opinions on this thread has made it more lively.

ShadowSpirit, you dont have to go anywhere, no izakaya or pubs/discs. The kind of description that you have given about yourself through your posts, many girls might already have fallen for you. Just check your Friend invitations, i guess you are loaded now with girsl asking you to be their friend..

Guys, one thing that have come forth, is that Japanese women care a lot about money. Why I am concerned about this fact more is because this one particularly is very different from India. As in, in India, once a girl gets married, she will stay with her husband and will defnitely not leave him on monetary ground, until and unless the money that is spent is because of husband's bad habits like gambling, etc. If for example, today economy is not that healthy and the husband has been fired, the wife will not leave him in these conditions. She will try to stay with him and try to put ends together in best possible ways.
Having said that, every country has its own customs and uniqueness.

There have been alot of generalizations made here in the recent posts this year about Japanese women that there are too many for me to quote and comment on, so I will direct my reply to Shadow Spirit based on my own experience.

Granted, what has been said in that many Japanese women today are looking at how much money a man has is true to an extent it is not indicative of the entire culture as you have probably surmised by now.

You will be moving to Aomori Prefecture to live and work and it will not be even close to what you would experience had you chosen to live in Tokyo, Yokohama, or Osaka or Kyoto in that Aomori is more country and thus, to an extent, more traditional and not as "international" as the cities I mentioned above and their surrounding areas. Therefore, what jt9258 said may be closer to the truth, but not necessarily so.

As with any culture you will find various types of women in Japan. Some will be traditional in that they want to be a housewife and raise children after marriage, while others may prefer to work after marriage and maybe so even after they have children even though it is still frowned upon in Japan. Some will be independent and may not want to have children. Some may even decide to break up with you because their family disagrees with their daughter dating a foreigner even though she is madly in love with you as happened to me.

The key point is to know what you want and to not to settle for less until you do find what you are looking for or you just may end up regretting it in the long run. Also, do not take things too seriously. Just be yourself, know what you want, and you will find what you are looking for.

I have been married to the same Japanese woman for almost 21 years now and we have been together almost 28 years. However, it is not my first marriage. I made the foolish mistake of marrying one of the first women I met in Japan and the marriage only lasted for 2 1/2 years due to immaturity and lust on my part. I was just a dumb 21 year old at the time. Granted, she was a great woman/wife and it was an amiacable divorce, but I acted with the "small head" and the not the big head if you get my drift. I will not go into details, but suffice it to say, our goals were not the same. Thankfully there were no children.

After that I vowed never to marry again, if ever, until I met someone I was completely compatable with in all aspects and I would not compromise. After four years and many dates with many women, I found what I was looking for even though I was not even looking for it at the time!

It was difficult in the beginning with her father and she being an only child and it took 7 years for him to come around. But come around he did and we became the best of friends.

In my experience Japanese women (like many women elsewhere) are as different as snowflakes in that almost no two are alike. You will have your gold diggers and those who care not how much money you make. You will have your submissives and your dominants and you will have your slobs and your clean freaks. Some will know how to cook and others will not. Some will enjoy your hobbies, others will not. Some will be the best sex you've ever had (even after marriage) while others will be rag dolls and care not for sex after a while. Some will be jealous and insecure, while others will give you all the freedom you desire.

Also, there are other things to take into consideration like the culture and how open she may be to leaving her country and family and will she desire to return home when her parents are aging and if so, are you willing to follow her? That's a question you must answer before desiring to settle down. In my own case, I know I will be returning to Japan shortly to care for my aging mother-in-law as my wife is an only child and I promised my father-in-law before he passed away that we would care for her. That's a given and I knew it from the start. You must ask yourself if you would be willing to live out your life in Japan if it came to that and have a definite answer.

Also, your knowledge of the Japanese language and her yours plays a vital factor in how well she will adapt to life in a foreign country in that she may desire to work if you move back to the US or you decide to remain in Japan. That you must decide before you marry. If you cannot answer it or think that you can't, then don't do it.

A marriage to a Japanese woman is not so difficult as some make it out to be providing one knows the culture and language of the person he/she is marrying. I cannot stress that enough. Sure there will always be those underlying cultural differences, but they are not that significant if both fully understand where the other person is coming from.

Also, as a foreigner in Japan, especially in an out of the way place like Aomori, you will have more than your fair share of women wanting to meet you just because you are a foreigner and an oddity. You may even feel like a celebrity at times. Some may even want to date you as it is considered cool and chic to have a foreign "boy toy" accessory and have no desire to ever settle down with you although they may give that impression. Then they will drop you before you ever knew what hit you and you will be saying, "WTF?"

I had my best experiences in meeting Japanese women in places where foreigners did not frequent in that I knew the language, was comfortable, and I was not on the prowl. It was often they who made the first move in that they wanted to meet a person who knew the language and culture and know more about a foreigner who was living in Japan.

In the end, it has been my experience that Japanese women appreciate the way a foreigner treats them in the long run in that they are treated as an equal and fairly as has been said to me on more than one occassion. Many a Japanese women have mentioned that they despise the way they are treated by Japanese men in the long run.

Japan can be a wonderful experience if you study the language and culture and go with the flow.

As I said above, the point is knowing what you want and not settling for less. Sound impossible? Not really as I thought it was also. Enjoy your time in Japan, don't take it too seriously when it comes to meeting women, and just go with the flow. It will make your time there that more worthwhile. I wish you the best.

Chirpy9: Your opinion is most welcome. This thread has been lacking a feminine touch for far too long. The sentiments you extend to me are sweet, but I confess that it is not as you have presumed. I guess there just aren't many women on this site who are reading my posts yet.

This vote of confidence you place on me is refreshing. I hope this does end up being the popular opinion to the women I meet in Japan. I consider myself a handsome guy and established. Yet I hold things like that at face value when it comes to matters of the heart. I suppose being raised by just my mother shows in my sentimental mentality. I've learned to look beneath the surface and desire to be judged on those same principles. This is a fortune that I think shines well when it comes to writing letters on the internet, but this side of me might not be so obvious if you saw me in my club attire with a drink in hand and a frat boy smile.

I do encourage you to continue contributing to this thread whether it be in extended opinions or questions.

Pachipro: My hat off to you kind sir. You have definitely put a lot of my fears to rest on that post. You broke down the wall I was having stacked on me in regards to Japanese women. Answering the question I had reworded a hundred times over. That being, I know what to expect of the traditional Japanese woman, but had been wanting to know if it was possible that woman in that culture break the mold. You answered that gloriously for me. That yes, there are. Sure, it might be harder to find in some areas as opposed to others and I'm willing to accept that. Yet having been a man who grew up and was confined to North America, I am oblivious to the mindset of cultures outside of America. Afterall, I grew up in California, the most diverse part of the melting pot of America. Yet despite this, I still encounter man Californians whom harbor prejudice and practice discrimination. So if people can develop this mindset when in a culturally expressive society, then I can only imagine what to expect of women from a society that stifles the woman's creativity, defines her role in life, and pressures her to those ideas. It just made me wonder if those women longed for something beyond that and would recognize it when it came to light. I wanted to believe this to be true, but I had definitely encountered a lot of antagonizing viewpoints that cloaked any light in my thinking.

Though Pachipro has contributed to the optimism I received from the likes of Chidoriashi. For that, I am greatfully thankful to you. Granted, I am not getting my hopes too high on this nor am I expecting to find what I'm looking for as a result. I just like knowing that it isn't impossible. That there are women in Japan who don't fall into the norm regardless of how scrutinized they may be for it. If such women exist, I can now just hope I will run into one. I'm not woman hunting per se. I just didn't want to be living in a region that couldn't afford any possibility (no matter how slim) of me finding a good woman to build a relationship with.

You brought up a good point about some women wanting a gaijin boy toy. I have read about that as well and will try to be mindful of the woman's intentions. I served a tour in Hawaii and was surrounded with women of that same mindset. It made being in Hawaii a depressing place for me. Great if you're a playboy, but not so much if you're a caucasian military man looking to settle down.

My thanks goes to jt9258 as well. For he has done a great job to caution me of what I could land myself into if I'm not careful in my tracks. I will take that caution to heart and not let a pretty face and timid actions be selling factors for me to jump into a relationship over.

Awfully Curious

I am very very new here so please so I apologise for anything that may come off as too stand-offish and/or offensive lol.
Im just wondering though since it looks like the post has turned more into about japanese women.. what about japanese men?
example-
It should be remembered that when you marry a Japanese women, in many cases the parents need to know that you can provide for there daughter, the spoken word in these cases is not enough, which means they may very well need to see that you can be a good provider, and worthy of there respect, actions speak louder than words.-
Im sorry I forgot who said this but I just thought it was interesting! So if the parents and the daughter are question whether the potential husband can provide, my question is what is it like vice versa?
As well I wanted to add... that ShadowSpirit even though you sound like a decent fellow, dont get me wrong but I dont know about your expectations.. its like you really are putting the country and the women on pedestals, as well as yourself. Like you are the man who's in search of his true love and will liberate her from her woes.. lol I know I havent been to Japan so maybe I shouldnt be saying this. Ah well you will be immersed in their culture soon enough, but as Pachipiro said go with the flow, be yourself but dont force yourself..and as many have said here, just keep an open mind and expect the unexpected.
I wish you luck!
p.s. for anyone that can help a silly girl, to directly quote someone on this blog how is that done?(without typing it all myself that is lol)

As well I wanted to add... that ShadowSpirit even though you sound like a decent fellow, dont get me wrong but I dont know about your expectations.. its like you really are putting the country and the women on pedestals, as well as yourself. Like you are the man who's in search of his true love and will liberate her from her woes..

Ack! What is all this talking of putting Japan and myself on a pedestal? I certainly didn't want to give that impression and hopefully I can put this idea to rest right now...
ShiroUsagi: I'm just trying hard to understand the culture. I will be spending quite a few years in the region and don't want to walk in without any knowledge of the culture, people, and as my focus portrays: the women. If I can be lucky enough to meet a woman that I will get along well with to possibly marry, and if she happens to be Japanese, I want to understand what kind of upbringing she has had. I just thought it was the responsible thing to do and that this post was a good place to gather some of that knowledge. Which I am glad that I asked, cause it has given me the opportunity to learn a lot and meet the acquaintance of great people on this forum.
As for putting myself on a pedestal. Are you referring to me boasting about my financial stability? I didn't say that to be arrogant. I was trying to convey a point to help get the best advice that I can. I didn't want it to sound like I can't take care of a woman. I wanted it known that I can, but that I didn't want to be judged on that alone. I guess there is no easy way to play out that scenario without sounding a bit pompous about it. With all said and done, I am going to be myself while in Japan. I just don't want my potential friends or mate to say. "You don't understand what it is like here." If I can avoid having that card played on me, it would be nice. Afterall, cultural barriers are something I take seriously. I feel the least I can do is show my respect by trying to learn as much as I can. It isn't like I'm going to deny who I am or where I came from. I would gladly share that part of my personality with anybody willing to learn.
I guess I could keep talking this subject to death and still give misleading impressions. I don't know if it is the words I choose to use, how much time I have spent writing, or something else. Yet I assure that I am not meaning to put anything on a pedestal. Least of all myself.
Now, for the discussion of Japanese men. I wish I had some info to give you on that subject. Yet as you can see, I didn't even know much about Japanese women. I'm going to know even less about the males. I do hope Japanese guys like having American friends though.
Well, so that I'm not entirely useless to you. The way to quote someone. There are options on the lower-right corner of each person's post that says 'quote.' If you use it, it should take you to the standard reply window with the text of that person already placed in as a quote. I hope this helps.

Interesting question! Japanese men are looking for a mother! they are looking for a women who will make a good mother for his children, and to replace his mother, because most Japanese men cannot look after themselves, the relationship they have will be more of a business relationship, in which they live there lives fullfilling there own roles to raise the children, this means that the Japanese man will not view his wife, as an attractive women after child birth, he will only see her as being a mother, so would not consider an intimate loving relationship with her.

This is why many foreigners have problems when being married to a Japanese partner, they both have different expectations of the relationship/marriage, the Japanese partner will expect their partner to act, and behave in a certain way, the concept that a western partner could act, or behave differently than a Japanese partner is hard for them to understand, or even accept. So while the foreign partner is looking at sharing an intimate loving relationship with their Japanese marriage partner, the Japanese partner is not.

When listening to Japanese men of most ages, I found that husbands really do not have any interest in their wives after children, and they regard it strange when a foreigner want's an intimate relationship with there wife, after marriage, and children.
.
Today I was lucky enough to raise these questions with a Japanese man, who is married, and has children, and I can say that he showed nothing but disgust, at the thought of having an intimate relationship with his wife.

Originally Posted by -ShiroUsagi-

Im sorry I forgot who said this but I just thought it was interesting! So if the parents and the daughter are question whether the potential husband can provide, my question is what is it like vice versa?

I think I wrote that!

A Japanese man is only expecting his wife to be a mother to him, and his children, though with his work schedule, and social life after work, his wife, and children will not see that much of him, and in many cases will only view him as a nuisance when he is at home, so the only one to really suffer if the wife does not fullfill her role as house wife, will be herself, and the children, though it should be remembered, that most divorces here are started by the women.

Originally Posted by -ShiroUsagi-

p.s. for anyone that can help a silly girl, to directly quote someone on this blog how is that done?(without typing it all myself that is lol)

Interesting question! Japanese men are looking for a mother! they are looking for a women who will make a good mother for his children, and to replace his mother, because most Japanese men cannot look after themselves, the relationship they have will be more of a business relationship, in which they live there lives fullfilling there own roles to raise the children, this means that the Japanese man will not view his wife, as an attractive women after child birth, he will only see her as being a mother, so would not consider an intimate loving relationship with her.

This is why many foreigners have problems when being married to a Japanese partner, they both have different expectations of the relationship/marriage, the Japanese partner will expect their partner to act, and behave in a certain way, the concept that a western partner could act, or behave differently than a Japanese partner is hard for them to understand, or even accept. So while the foreign partner is looking at sharing an intimate loving relationship with their Japanese marriage partner, the Japanese partner is not.

When listening to Japanese men of most ages, I found that husbands really do not have any interest in their wives after children, and they regard it strange when a foreigner want's an intimate relationship with there wife, after marriage, and children.
.
A Japanese man is only expecting his wife to be a mother to him, and his children, though with his work schedule, and social life after work, his wife, and children will not see that much of him, and in many cases will only view him as a nuisance when he is at home, so the only one to really suffer if the wife does not fullfill her role as house wife, will be herself, and the children, though it should be remembered, that most divorces here are started by the women.

You certainly take a pessimistic view of the situation. While many of the things you said may very well be true for many people of the older generation who view their relationship as more of a business one than a romantic one, it's not true for all of them. I know many older couples (50s and 60s) who are quite good friends, love to spend time with each other, and have very loving relationships.

For the younger generation I don't think it's really that true at all. All of my married friends in my age range (20s-late 30s) are love matches and they interact together much the same way that Western couples do, laughing and joking together, doing little romantic things together, regardless of whether they have kids or not. It's true that things are still more old-fashioned at home with the wife mostly staying home and raising the kids and the husband working a lot, but that doesn't mean that they don't have a loving relationship.

In fact I'm married to a Japanese man myself and he is the sweetest, most romantic, funniest guy I've met of any nationality (that's why I married him!) He does work long hours, but when he's home we spend our time together enjoying each other's company, going out together, walking the dog together etc.

It's been said before, but people are people regardless of their race or nationality and every single one is different. There may be trends or patterns within a culture, but not everyone is going to fit into that pattern.

Interesting question! Japanese men are looking for a mother! they are looking for a women who will make a good mother for his children, and to replace his mother, because most Japanese men cannot look after themselves, the relationship they have will be more of a business relationship, in which they live there lives fullfilling there own roles to raise the children, this means that the Japanese man will not view his wife, as an attractive women after child birth, he will only see her as being a mother, so would not consider an intimate loving relationship with her.

This is why many foreigners have problems when being married to a Japanese partner, they both have different expectations of the relationship/marriage, the Japanese partner will expect their partner to act, and behave in a certain way, the concept that a western partner could act, or behave differently than a Japanese partner is hard for them to understand, or even accept. So while the foreign partner is looking at sharing an intimate loving relationship with their Japanese marriage partner, the Japanese partner is not.

When listening to Japanese men of most ages, I found that husbands really do not have any interest in their wives after children, and they regard it strange when a foreigner want's an intimate relationship with there wife, after marriage, and children.
.
Today I was lucky enough to raise these questions with a Japanese man, who is married, and has children, and I can say that he showed nothing but disgust, at the thought of having an intimate relationship with his wife.

I think I wrote that!

A Japanese man is only expecting his wife to be a mother to him, and his children, though with his work schedule, and social life after work, his wife, and children will not see that much of him, and in many cases will only view him as a nuisance when he is at home, so the only one to really suffer if the wife does not fullfill her role as house wife, will be herself, and the children, though it should be remembered, that most divorces here are started by the women.

It's been said before, but people are people regardless of their race or nationality and every single one is different. There may be trends or patterns within a culture, but not everyone is going to fit into that pattern.

Ah well I think it is very helpful to know two very different points of view, so thank you very much jt9258 and Becki kanou So basically the situation can go either way for either age groups lol. I was only wondering because yes japanese guys are pretty good looking ahaha but I personally always hear about the women, so I have no idea what the men are like. Anyway good to know, I will keep an open mind ^_^ ...but at the same time ahaha Im still curious.. so jt9258 to you are all japanese men like this? and where do you get your information? let the discussion continue! :P

Ah well I think it is very helpful to know two very different points of view, so thank you very much jt9258 and Becki kanou So basically the situation can go either way for either age groups lol.

Depends what Becki, regards as a Loving Relationship! I say this, because many foreigners who are married to Japanese, complain about the lack of, or no interest there marriage partner has in an intimate relationship, while they may both love each other, in many cases the Japanese partner does not show there love through intimacy, after marriage.

Many Japanese people do not link "Love" with having an intimate relationship with there marriage partner, howevewr while dating in a "Love Match" relationship the Japanese partner can be very passionate, though after marriage, and children this changes quickly, for foreigners who feel that good discussion in a relationship is important in resolving problems, they can find that the Japanese partner is separating "Love" and "Intimacy/Sex",and regarding sex as a seperate activity that has nothing to do with "Love", with some foreign men even being told to take a girlfriend, this can be extremely hurtfull to a man who wants to love his partner intimately.

I should add that for many Japanese women "Love" is related more to a mans ability to provide, than it being related to sharing an intimate relationship, money is king for Japanese women.

However it should not be forgotten that while many "Love Match" relationships with a Japanese partner does not always end in marriage, while the Japanese partner can be very passionate in this relationship, as time progresses the passion can deteriate quickly if the female partner does not see the relatiosnhip resulting in marriage, though for those foreign men, who make it clear to there Japanese partner, at some point in there relatiohsip, that they have no immediate desire to get married, they can find themselves loosing contact with there partner very quickly, because in the eyes of many Japanese women, if there is no prospect of marriage, then they see no point in continuing the relationship.

Originally Posted by -ShiroUsagi-

I was only wondering because yes japanese guys are pretty good looking ahaha but I personally always hear about the women, so I have no idea what the men are like.

Japanese men are not the same as western men, life for a man is about devoting ones life to the company they work for, this can, and will mean working late, after work
it means spending social time with co-woorkers, which can last into the early hours, while they will initially meet as a large group, as the night progresses the group will break up into smaller groups, visiting different bars, some even break off, and continue the social evening on there own, visiting hostess bars, soaplands etc.

Most Japanese men, do not show much interest in raising children, for what ever reason this may be, I am still confused by Japanese peoples lack of caring, though there work schedule does keep them away from there family, and they do not appear to have a problem with this, it can mean that the only real family time they have will be on a Sunday, though as mentioned each partner has a role to play in the marriage, with the wife being a mother to the children, and the husband being a provider, so his lack of interest with the children could be related to him only placing his role as provider, and placing more importance in devoting himself to the company he works for.

Though one explanation for a lack of caring in Japanese people, could be related to the fact that children are placed into nursery schools full time, at a very young age, so they fail to develop a strong relationship with there parents, only being surrounded by other children and care givers.

I should add here that while foreign men will fight to keep there children, or have contact with there children after a divorce, many Japanese men do not, so they can loose all contact with there children after divorce.

Originally Posted by -ShiroUsagi-

Im still curious.. so jt9258 to you are all japanese men like this? and where do you get your information? let the discussion continue!

I am not saying that all Japanese men and women are the same, though from the knowledge I have gained being married to a Japanese women, living, working, and socilizing with Japanese people, many are as I have said in my postings, additionally for a two year period I was in a unique position, in having a job working with other Japanese men, that permitted me to see into the private social lives of Japanese people, and I can say it was a real eye opener.

I would add here that the Japanese men that I worked with, and met as a result of
my work, found it strange that a man would want to have an intimate relationship with his wife, and as mentioned in my last post some even find the thought disgusting.

Actually, I do have something to contribute on the subject of Japanese men and relationships. I recall a BBC documentary I had seen long ago that I believe provided some information that applies to this topic.

Just please keep in mind that 1) This is NOT my personal opinion of Japanese men or the Japanese culture. I am only describing what the documentary discussed. 2) What is in my personal opinion though, is that I'm certain not all Japanese men can be categorized as having the mindset of what I'm about to describe.

Okay. With the disclaimer aside. The topic of the documentary was in regards to Japan's notorious adult industry. Before you jump to conclusions about separating the mentality of men whom employ the use of such services apart from those whom don't. The point that stood out in my mind is why the school girl image is so profoundly popular for Japanese men. Unlike with most western men, whom find this image to be attractive because of the playfulness, youthful image, or of its ilk. Japanese men find comfort in the innocence that comes with the sight of a girl still trying to learn about the world. Japanese men feel awkward talking with women who speak their mind and have an opinion. It plays on the men's insecurities and unassurance for talking with such a woman. Whereas school girls tend not to have such independence or strong viewpoints. This brings about a comfort to the Japanese male that has helped to escallate the popularity of the inexperienced school girl.

The point being, that most Japanese men (as explained in this documentary) are shy and uncertain people when it comes to dealing with women. Which would help to reinforce jt's argument that Japanese men have a mama's boy mentality in a sense.

This is a great post, and I mostly agree with what Chidoriashi says. Unfortunately, I have the feeling many foreigners have opinions on Japan based on outdated information. There is also the issue that Internet, while providing mostly accurate information (there are not that many liers out there) often fails to provide the context (like how frequent is the story). This is why we often think exceptional behavior is the norm (every time I search for some medical information on the internet, I end-up convinced I have 3 cancers, and I need a physician to give me context, and explain me that I just have a cold). Also, we often compare the ideal situation in our country with the real situation in Japan, which is not fair.

One good example is "Omiai", or arranged wedding, which seems to be quite rare in Japan nowadays. The only time I heard about it what for people I know from the countryside, as they obviously cannot meet many people in their rice field, and especially not the rare woman who would accept the quite inconvenient life in the countryside. Arranged marriage was more common 50 years ago, but it was also so in Europe (not sure about the US).

Also, even in Europe, I found that combining 2 "top-level" professional careers and a family life can be really challenging, especially of one of the careers implies changing town every 3 years (would be the case in French public service for example). The pragmatic choice, even here in Europe, is often to have one "top career" and a more flexible one inside the couple. This is not so far from the japanese model where women will have "office lady" jobs until they have a child, and go back to work (sometimes for the same company) where the children go to school. Also, "office lady" does not mean serving tea to men in the company (this is pretty outdated), but sometimes doing quite interesting work, with less pressure and also less pay than the full time male employees.

One good example is "Omiai", or arranged wedding, which seems to be quite rare in Japan nowadays. The only time I heard about it what for people I know from the countryside, as they obviously cannot meet many people in their rice field, and especially not the rare woman who would accept the quite inconvenient life in the countryside. Arranged marriage was more common 50 years ago, but it was also so in Europe (not sure about the US).

It's not as uncommon as you might think, as I've done it myself, but in my experience at least, it's not nearly as formal as what many people imagine.

I am sure this has been pointed out by others before but Omiai does not really translates to Arranged Marriage. Omiai, at least in today's Japan, is the act of bringing two people together by arranging a meeting between the two.

Just think of it as a dating service. Someone you or your family know, a family friend, an aunt/uncle, etc., introduces you to someone you may be interested in. First, they show you a picture of your possible dream date, then, if you are interested, you meet with her/him in a public setting, like a restaurant accompanied by your matchmaker, who often excuses themselves after a while if they think that two of you are getting along. After the meeting, the matchmaker ask each of you (seperately) if there was any spark between you two and if you'd be interested in pursuing it further. If Yes, you are pretty much on your own from then on. You get in touch with your date directly. After that, it is no different than any other relationships.

As Mikawa Ossan wrote, it is not that uncommon. My mother tried to bring together my cousin and a daughter of one of her friends last year.
The three of them met in a restaurant one day but it was just not meant to be....