Stephanie, I think it is great that you seek out well cared for meats. Your comment just kind of smacked of disrespect of animals. It kind of sounded like something someone from PETA would say trying to make a meat eater look like an asshole.

Animals are pretty damn smart. And I would say, in some cases, smarter than a lot of people,

I took Stephanie's comments to mean that no one should feel bad for eating an animal because food chain-wise we are superior to them. We occupy a higher place. Much like a lion shouldn't feel bad for eating a gazelle or a lizard for eating a cricket. As she said, circle of life. If it makes me an asshole to say I am higher on the food chain than a cow then I guess I am an asshole. As for respecting animals, sure, I can respect a wild animal as much as the next guy. I think wolves and bears and zebras are cool. A bunch of cows in a feedlot? I can't say I respect them too much. They are food. I don't respect lettuce much either but I can appreciate a giant redwood. One can respect nature, appreciate where their food comes from, and not put animals up on a pedistal. They're food. It's okay to think so.

Veganism is a reaction, but it is NOT a solution. Joel Salatin and others have the solution, and it's an elegant solution solves more than one problem (animal freedom, species diversity, watershed preservation, pesticide-free, delicious food, topsoil building, carbon storage, etc).

This is so true. If you have ever heard him speak, you see what an amazing solution he offers. It's stuff like what I have learned from him that have given me true hope. Withdrawl from a bad system can sometimes be the best option you have, but not in the case of food politics. Joe offers a much better option than withdrawl.

Originally Posted by magnolia1973

Stephanie, I think it is great that you seek out well cared for meats. Your comment just kind of smacked of disrespect of animals. It kind of sounded like something someone from PETA would say trying to make a meat eater look like an asshole.

Animals are pretty damn smart. And I would say, in some cases, smarter than a lot of people,

I agree with both statements.

I live with parrots. I have had them in my life for more than half my life. They live a long time. One of mine lived to be 22 years old. I have one that is currently living that is now 21 years old and another that is 18 years old. Parrots are more like humans than any animal I have ever lived with and unlike domesticated animals, they are wild animals. Tame, but still wild, never domesticated.

They express the same emotions any temper-tantrum-prone small child does and often in the same exact ways. Stomping the foot and screaming jealousy fits, for example. Jealousy is their most human-like emotion, but they also express curiosity and intent. By intent I mean they want something and they will find a way to get it even if it takes more than a day to do it. They will express love, but some parrots express it more affectionately like people and others don't do the affectionate thing.

Once you live with a wild animal for so many decades you learn its language and it becomes so obvious they are every bit as intelligent and full of the same emotions as humans, just in a different way. I get the feeling sometimes that they would eat me if they could. I also think they know what they are looking at when we cut up a whole chicken for dinner. One of my birds will eat chicken, in case you were wondering.

There are no "Primal instincts" which lead any omnivore to veganism.... only unassisted human reason could do that (and at the same time create new problems that you must labor to solve). Nothing about veganism is innate to humans. It requires an academic exercise for one to arrive at it. Just one more reason why I don't ignore my instincts <... smells bacon, must investigate....>

I took Stephanie's comments to mean that no one should feel bad for eating an animal because food chain-wise we are superior to them. We occupy a higher place. Much like a lion shouldn't feel bad for eating a gazelle or a lizard for eating a cricket. As she said, circle of life. If it makes me an asshole to say I am higher on the food chain than a cow then I guess I am an asshole. As for respecting animals, sure, I can respect a wild animal as much as the next guy. I think wolves and bears and zebras are cool. A bunch of cows in a feedlot? I can't say I respect them too much. They are food. I don't respect lettuce much either but I can appreciate a giant redwood. One can respect nature, appreciate where their food comes from, and not put animals up on a pedistal. They're food. It's okay to think so.

Just what I was thinking, lol. Thx

Personally I don't like being compared to an animal. I'm not one at all, but I do respect them, obviously.

For something to live, something needs to die. Avoiding animal products does not change the nature of it. I don't think humans are superior to animals, they are animals. I respect the choices of others, but I won't make this choice myself. I want my life less rather than more complicated.

Also, when my son was sick I did the vegan thing out of desperation. It almost killed him (he had liver disease). I feel so bad now, but I did it out of love. His liver numbers got worse, for the 1st time his kidneys stopped working, and he started to lose his hair.

My chiropractor sat me down, started crying and begged me to feed meat, etc. A couple months of raw milk, bone broths, and he was much better. Kidney function returned to normal, hair grew back... Just sayin'.

Personally I don't like being compared to an animal. I'm not one at all

Originally Posted by wikipedia

Animals are a major group of multicellular, eukaryotic organisms of the kingdom Animalia or Metazoa. Their body plan eventually becomes fixed as they develop, although some undergo a process of metamorphosis later on in their life. Most animals are motile, meaning they can move spontaneously and independently. All animals are also heterotrophs, meaning they must ingest other organisms or their products for sustenance.

I'm pretty sure you know what Stephanie meant. There is a difference between technically being an animal and 'acting like an animal' (generally with a negative connotation). This is not to say that all animals are bad or all humans are good, but the distinction is there and nit-picking over semantics is lame.

I took Stephanie's comments to mean that no one should feel bad for eating an animal because food chain-wise we are superior to them.

I don't know about that....I mean, a shark can eat us. A pack of dogs can kill a child in no time. That should probably actually make us feel better about eating animals. Of course we freak out when an animal kills a human. We do a great job controlling nature so we stay high on the food chain.

They're food. It's okay to think so.

For me, the worst part of meat is confinement, because I see horses enjoy themselves and express being unhappy and happy. I know that any being can understand issues of being uncomfortable in a moment. They can also be bored and become mentally unglued when confined. And they can have pretty sophisticated social groupings and relationships. They express empathy, anger, joy. They are more than just food and can suffer from pain. We don't have to make raise them in poor conditions to feed ourselves. It is OK to realize their future is to be killed for our purposes, but I don't think it is right to deny them natural conditions in an effort to be more efficient.