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JWH-018 Toxicology

Since my last post about the spice behind Spice (and other smoking mixtures such as Smoke, Serenity Now, K2, Sence, etc), it has been brought to my attention that some initial toxicology testing has been done on the synthetic cannabinoid JWH-018. Before we get down to the details however, here’s some pretty weird background information – the sponsor and provider of these studies wishes to remain anonymous! Unfortunately, this makes the whole thing a lot less credible, but since this is the only information we have right now, let’s hope someone else can verify these things at a later date. So far, one professor (who also wishes to remain anonymous) thinks these are real, but as of yet, no one is willing to put their name down on any kind of formal statement. If you, or anyone you know, has the relevant expertise to look over these studies, please drop me a line!

(Quick Update – A lot of people have been discussing and linking to this post, but there remains some suspicion that I have something to gain by saying the JWH-018 isn’t that harmful. Firstly, JWH-018 is now illegal in the UK. Secondly, as I mentioned just above this, if I have got anything wrong, please pick me up on it! If it turns out my analysis of the data is incorrect, I will correct it!)

Feel free to invent your own conspiracy theories, but for now, let’s take a look at the data. You can download the PDF documents in this Zip file [2.04 MB]

CYP450 Inhibition Assay

This first assay looks at the effect of a drug on specific enzymes in your liver. These Cytochrome P450 enzymes are responsible for metabolising the vast majority of drugs you might put in your body, so if you’ve got too much of one drug in your system (ie paracetamol/acetaminophen), then other drugs that are also metabolised by these enzymes (ie alcohol) may compete for these enzymes and so hang around in your system for longer. As you can imagine, it’s important to understand how one drug may affect the metabolism of another, in case of any disasterous drug-drug interactions.

Results: JWH-018 will probably interact with the metabolism of other drugs, so more in vivo work is necessary.

hERG Binding Assay

hERG stands for human Ether-à-go-goRelated Gene. This gene codes for a particular type of potassium channel found on heart tissue. This channel pumps potassium ions out of the heart muscle cells and are critical in coordinating the heart’s electrical activity. Unfortunately, these channels are a prime target for drugs to bind to, disrupting their function. This can lead to “Long QT Syndrome”, associated with fainting and can lead to sudden death, so you can see why these kinds of tests are important. Here’s a typical ECG recording showing what’s called the “QT interval” shown in blue, which lasts for longer than it should do if these channels are disrupted.

Results: JWH-018 does not interfere with these channels. That’s a good thing.

Cytotoxicity Assay

This simple test essentially looks at how many cells die when you perfuse them with a drug. The more cells that die, the more toxic the drug.

Results: JWH-018 is not cytotoxic at low concentrations.

GreenScreen HC Genotoxicity Assay

This assay looks at how much a drug will interfere with our DNA. Typically, anything that damages DNA is bad news, being potentially carcinogenic, making the rationale behind this test glaringly obvious. This test was also performed in the presence of a fraction taken from liver cells, which will break down the drug. This not only checks if the drug will damage DNA, but also its breakdown products.

Results: JWH-018 does not damage DNA, so shouldn’t give you cancer.

Rat Repeat Toxicity Assay

Guess what happens in this experiment. A number of renagade lab rats looking for a bad time are rounded up and promised free drugs (kind of like Pleasure Island from Pinocchio; that shit was scary!). The rats are then dosed up and observed. Initially, they appear lethargic (read: totally baked) but a few of them died at higher doses. This appears to be down to problems breathing rather than organ toxicity, but only affected the male rats, who appeared more sensitive to the compound. The drug didn’t appear to accumulate in their systems either, but they did lose some weight, probably because they couldn’t be arsed to eat. JWH-018 showed a huge potency and was found to be tachyphylactic (my new favourite word – it means that more of a drug is required to reach the same state following an initial dosage).

Results: According to FDA guidelines, the human equivalent dose is 0.016 mg/kg but it should be tested in other species before this can be seen as reliable!

Rat Pharmacokinetics

Data is collected on a number of different “pharmacokinetic” aspects of the drug, such as how it is absorbed, distributed throughout the body, metabolised and excreted, which can help with the design of future clinical trials.

Results: JWH-018 is distributed well throughout the rat’s tissues. Metabolism and excretion are normal, with a plasma half-life of approximately 2 hours

Summary

Well, from the looks of these tests, JWH-018 seems to be pretty safe, but unless you want to piss off Ben Goldacre, it would be wise not to rely on this “test tube data” entirely. Also, like I said before, we don’t know where this data has come from, clouding the issue even further.

Feel free to ask any questions in the comments.

Big thanks to Alfa @ Drugs-Forum.com for letting me know about these studies. You can read all about JWH-018 on their Drugs Wiki.

COMMENTS IN THIS THREAD ARE NOW CLOSED. YOU CAN CONTINUE DISCUSSING SYNTHETIC CANNABINOIDS HERE OR INDIVIDUAL SMOKING MIXTURES HERE..

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444 Responses to JWH-018 Toxicology

I can say for anyone who says they have had negative side effects from smoking blends that I find this true in some instances. Spice Gold, Spice Diamond, Ultimate Warrior, and Spike 99 (I do not recommend these blends) all gave me a severe head pounding the next day. While the high was very extreme, almost trippy, the day after effects were not worth the buzz. Serenity Now & K3 are purer blends I believe, hell I even smoked 2 grams in one day of both and never experienced any negative side effects besides being so damn stoned I couldn’t decide whether to sit on my ass or fall asleep. Since then I have quit consuming any “spice blends” because I feel they have changed my psychologically and made me develop anger problems. Also a friend of mine ordered the pure 018 and mix it 7 grams of damiana to 400 mgs of pure. The blend was nice and mellow, about the same as Serenity thou not as intense. I would recommend it in moderation ONLY. Also all my friends smoke, some experimented through a bong, gas mask, and vaporizer. The worst feeling my buddy said he had was when he took 4 bong hits of Serenity, he said he was nervous, shaky, anxious, and had a panic attack. But also he said it only lasted for about 20 minutes and after that he was just really stoned. I don’t see any reason why this stuff is bad other than people who are not smart enough to use it wisely. Also the stores around here sell it now, and I frequently encounter police staking the place out harassing customer’s who buy it. Won’t be long until they make this stuff illegal so all those who do smoke it I suggest you stock up on some pure stuff and make your own blends, it will save you a lot of money in the long run and you will know whats in your blend that way, as long as you purchase from a good researchchemicalz company.

I find it amazing that you will go to all that trouble to put yourself in a mind altering state. First you might have a “panic attack”, severe headache, nervous, shacky, anxious for 20 minutes of being really stoned. Yeah, sounds like a really great time. Why don’t you just figure out what is hurting you so badly inside your head that you would go to all the trouble. And if you don’t want to experience all those side effects, you only need to become a pharmacist and , weigh,measure, mix, blah, blah, blah….sounds to me like people with serious issues. There is a reason that it will soon be illegal. This isn’t marijuana, it’s a man made synthetic substance that you have no reason to poisen yourself with. Unless….you are in trouble with the law, for abusing yourself already with other substances, then you resort to a “blend” that causes such aggravation. Seems to me like you might want to use your time finding yourself with healthier choices.

TO: msshaw, please email me. we can talk off line. I hear what you are saying. I am sure you have read some of my previous posts. Just email me. I am sorry to hear about your son. You have every right to stand up and voice your opinion. None of us knows your pain as a parent of having to deal with a child who ventured in unknown chemical territory. Trust me on this one, you won’t win your argument here. However, I respect your courage to voice your opinion in a frank and sincere manner. I am at courther@bellsouth.net

x1: I ordered 1g of 18 and 1g of 73. The only thing I couldn’t get is the Everclear 190. It’s not legal in my state, so I can’t get it shipped here either. I bought 151 proof rum. I know you said 150 proof everclear wouldn’t work, but why? Is it impossible to dissolve the jwh in them or something?

No, it’s not impossible to dissolve JWH in something less than 190 proof…it’s just considerably harder.

Basically, these cannabinoids dissolve well in alcohol, and don’t dissolve at all in water. So the further down the chain you get from “pure” alcohol, the harder it is to make the chemical dissolve. As I’ve mentioned, even close to pure grain alcohol at 190-proof, you typically don’t get it to totally dissolve just by pouring in and mixing…you have to agitate, scrape, mash a bit to get every last grain.

At 151-proof, for starters you’re probably going to need to use a lot of rum (more alcohol will help your chances). If you were thinking of dissolving all 2g of your material at once, I’d think about using a full 1.75 L jug of rum. And at this point, you’re in the experimental stage, and I don’t know if it will work for you. I can flat guarantee unequivocal success with 190-proof, whereas anything less is kind of a crap shoot. You can probably get it to dissolve if you are willing to expose it to enough alcohol and you are prepared to stir and mash the crap out of it.

At this point someone might say, “why don’t you heat up the rum and it will dissolve no problem?”

I’m not advocating that. Heating up liquor in your home can be a little dicey, what the fumes and the fire hazard and so on. AND DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT THE MICROWAVE. No no no.

I don’t know if you can comprehend this, but there are some humans in the world who enjoy a good intoxication every now and then. Humans have been known to enjoy such for thousands of years.

Some of us enjoy the intoxication produced by these particular cannabinoid agents that we are discussing here. Some of us enjoy it considerably more than other intoxicants such as alcohol.

If you don’t enjoy any such activity or state of being, that’s just peachy, and I wish you a good time to be had in whatever way you enjoy.

But please don’t superimpose the problems in your family onto the rest of the world. There’s a world of people who can enjoy “drugs” of different sorts without going off the deep end.

Perhaps seeking personal counseling for yourself, to help manage the frustration of your son’s extreme negative experience and negative impact on your life, would be more fruitful than venting on a drug blog.

x1 quotes ” There’s a world of people who can enjoy “drugs” of different sorts without going off the deep end.”

It’s true, but sad are they that can’t keep things on track. There is always someone who can’t drink responsibly too. Or they have a fast car and drive fast or impaired. It gets ridiculous to outlaw everything.

msshaw why are you attacking me? What does it matter if my friend over did his experience. People do this everyday, he’s not a habitual user by any means. I really wish you conservative fucks would stop wasting the people’s time who are here to gain some knowledge. Sorry your son is a screw up and not capable of controlling his own actions but as an adult I must tell you, fuck off. This blog is great and JWH will not be illegal because a few responsible adults overdid their experience to see how high they could get but by the fact that children are getting their hands on the blends and pure stuff and acting stupid and making youtube videos. Same thing that happened with salvia.

I must sadly say that J is right. FDA has their sights set on K2 and the components already. And several doctors are urging them to make K2, Spice and the JWH’s a schedule one class drug. So enjoy it and being able to order it while you can. Damn shame too. A mere gram of the pure stuff can get you baked for several months.

Asm.. i wasn’t attacking you personally, it seems as if you may be experiencing some of that paranoia & anxiety you so like to expose yourself too. However, that being said, it seems to me that many of the people(not all) that smoke spice do so because of prior issues that have put them in the position of being drug tested. Hmmm. something to think about….! Also,if becoming a pharmacutical expert with measuring & mixing isn’t going off the deep end to get a pleasurable high….I don’t know what is. That said…..this will be my last post, I will get off my high horse, let you all enjoy yourselves in whatever means you find necessary. I, for the record, do enjoy a good buzz once in awhile, responsibly & without risk. Peace out!

The measuring and mixing discussed in this thread is about as difficult and technical as the measuring and mixing involved in baking a cake. In fact, it’s less difficult. It involves less measuring, less calculation, and less equipment and ingredients than cake-baking.

Yes, please come down off your high horse, since you are riding it quite stupidly.

You…came here…and attacked people who are minding their own business discussing a common interest in a civil manner. Who’s gone off the deep end? Enjoy your responsible buzz, annoying little mosquito!

lol people let it be go argue about lcd, pcp, meth. These substances are way worse than jwh-018 so if this get illegalized then all your high school daughters and sons will just go down the street and buy weed, cocaine, acid, ext. Then you be visting them in the county jail. The point is why isn’t the government taking approach on this if its sooooooooo toxic. People saying they are in the hospital. LOl give me a fuckin break scary high maybe. Dumbasses taking to high of a dose for the first time. Every person that has gone to the hospital were 100% fine. If you think that it so toxic then why hasn’t there been deaths. Since jwh-018 has been out since 1995 and there are still no cases on this prdouct of anyone dieing.

Doc, you have some good points and bad points. Death is very possible. The right scenario just hasn’t happened, and I pray it doesn’t. Think about someone using this stuff while operating heavy machinery or while driving on the highway!

JWH works with the liver in a way that can cause the skin and eyes to turn yellow. JWH increases the heart rate to a point that can give someone with high blood pressure a heart attack.

I think that there should be a JWH-XXX chem that is a 1 to 1 ratio with thc. At least this way, less people are likely to OD on the stuff. People will do it regardless, but at least it want be so much of a hazard.

Another thing. Everyone that is using spice, K2, puff and all the rest are putting their life in the hands of the companies that make the stuff. That thought alone puts chills down my spine.

Everyone is so greedy to make money, its sad but true.

Anyway, I would like to see an mri cat scan of a person who has smoked spice for years and compare their brain with someone who never smoked spice to see if their is any difference in structure.

Without a doubt, total abstinence is “the way to go” to maintain optimum health and all… but given the nature of people wanting to get buzzed —

I’d rather see them use micrograms of JWH-018 every few days than The Chronic a few times a day. It costs less, involves way fewer lungfulls of smoke, is legal, doesn’t contribute to violent “drug trade” untaxed commerce, etc etc.

CAN it leas to death/addictions/financial ruin? I suppose it can, sure… but toxic as it may or may not be at least we’re not clogging up up the jails and ER’s around the country with people who have to commit criminal acts to use it. That’s gotta count for something!!

yes, i have to admit that jwh-018 is a dirty high. i’ve had many incenses that contain it and i have to be very careful when i smoke it. i’ve had many panic attacks if i overdo it. which isn’t much. an extra puff. feels dirty and toxic. a cheap, yet expensive high. i’m sticking to the real thing.

just to let you know i’ve been with mj for 25 years and this stuff is definitely different. i can understand exactly why someone would smoke this. usually because of urine tests or mj scarcity. but it won’t be legal long. i mean the first time i smoked it, i was like HOLY FUCK! HOW IN THE FUCK CAN THIS BE LEGAL? but to each his own. here, there’s an overabundance of the real thing-dirt cheap to.

Bronchitis is still bad and I every time I cough for 2- 3 seconds I almost black out and have a mini seizure. I don’t know if the chemical has thwarted recovery somehow but it feels so. To get better it’s been over 48 hours without any smoking JWH. And, I am still feeling the weirdest i have in my whole life. I pray it’s just all the sinus pressure and hard coughing robbing me of needed Oxygen but I can’t be sure until I heal up.

Berny, I will pray for you that you get better. Was it pure JWH or a herbal blend like spice gold, etc? Either way, you never know if its pure or impure. That’s why I recommend not doing it. Essentially, you are putting your life into someones hands every time you do it. Everyone here needs to ask themselves. How valuable is my life? How valuable is my brain and having a clear mind.

Berny and anyone else who doesn’t feel good. I would recommend doing a full detox. Stay away from fatty foods. See a doctor and tell them what you messed around with and let them know you don’t feel right. Berny, if you are really concerned, get an MRI of your head, and get a chest x-ray. Also drink alot of water. 🙂

This is a JWH toxicology thread, not a Nancy Reagan Just Say No thread.

You are talking some serious bullshit, and I’m calling you on it. From the moment you entered this thread, many posts ago, you had nothing but negative things to say about JWH, many of which are factually inaccurate.

Since this is a JWH toxicology thread, here is your chance to substantiate the record, and prove yourself, instead of constantly talking out of your ass.

Here is one of your dumb comments:

“JWH works with the liver in a way that can cause the skin and eyes to turn yellow.”

Prove it. Don’t just say it. How is it received and processed by the liver? How does it cause skin and eyes to turn yellow? How come my liver is fine, and my skin and eyes haven’t turned yellow? You are just talking out of your dumb ass.

Here is another dumb comment:

“JWH increases the heart rate to a point that can give someone with high blood pressure a heart attack.”

Prove it.

How many people have had heart attacks on JWH? Out of the thousands, probably tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands….maybe even a million or more people who have done JWH or smoked Spice…

…how many have had heart attacks? I’m sure at least some of those people had high blood pressure. Why haven’t any of them had heart attacks?

Can you please use facts, evidence, proof, etc…?

…Instead of just pulling hot steaming bullshit out of your asshole? Stop the baseless fear-mongering. All the empirical evidence, amassed from countless details of countless people consuming this stuff, amounts to zero heart attacks, zero deaths, and zero measurable chronic, permanent physiological damage. That’s different from psychological…where people might believe JWH fucked them up, even if they have no medical proof.

What you do have, so far, is a long, LONG list of stupid people, using a very potent clinical-grade chemical in a very stupid, casual way, without serious regard for precise dosage and reaction sensitivity. Naturally, because of such stupidity, you have some bad times, and I see many many people blaming the chemical for their own retarded antics.

This is why it’s so important, for those of us who understand and respect these sorts of chemicals in general, and who don’t see global prohibition as inevitable, to try to put a stop to two things:

1. Careless use that leads to extremely negative experiences and bad word of mouth.

2. Careless, baseless fear-mongering where people make up lies and generate bad word of mouth for no clear reason.

J, you fall under #2. Maybe your intentions are good….or maybe you have some other motive that causes you to make overblown or inaccurate comments to try to scare people. In any case, if you are going to make a SCARY claim about a JWH health risk, especially in a toxicology thread, you better damn well back it up with hard evidence. Otherwise you’re just a part of the problem…yet more disinformation and bullshit propaganda on the hysteria express.

You told a guy up there to “stay away from fatty foods”, to help him recover from a bad JWH experience. I’m guessing you’re no doctor. Guess what, folks? It’s OK to eat some cake and ice cream, or whatever else you like, after having a little too much JWH. J doesn’t know what the fuck he’s talking about, and such pseudo-doctor babble isn’t productive.

If you want some good advice, here’s some:

1. Do not even bother with JWH at all if you are a blithering idiot.

2. Don’t bother smoking JWH if you don’t have a way to precisely measure the substance at the single milligram level.

3. Don’t bother smoking JWH if you don’t have the patience to wait 15 minutes after a toke to gauge the effect.

5. AVOID ALL BLENDS. Buy only the pure research chemical, and regulate yourself.

6. Don’t believe any bullshit about heart attacks, deaths, or any other VERY BAD THINGS coming from JWH without serious evidence. There are many, many things in this world that elevate your heart rate. Some of those things include music, caffeine, and sex. Based on the EVIDENCE we have so far, it seems you are just about as likely to have a heart attack on JWH…as you are to have a heart attack while sipping coffee…or fucking.

If you decide to be stupid and careless anyway, and fail to precisely measure, and fail to be disciplined and patient, and treat JWH like a fucking dirty street drug, be ready to have a panic attack.

Just don’t forget…a panic attack is not a heart attack. Even if it’s a really bad, scary panic attack, there’s virtually zero likelihood you will actually damage your heart. A physical and a review of your vital signs will confirm this. So think about that before you run to the nearest internet forum and make a silly post about how scary and dangerous and unhealthy and evil JWH is.

The chemical itself seems to be fairly benign and harmless. It passes easily through the system, and lights up the reefer-loving part of the brain with remarkable efficiency.

Unfortunately, the motley gang of wayward, logic-challenged humans who keep jacking themselves on this chemical in careless ways, or who keep disparaging the chemical with thoughtless anti-facts, are going to ruin the party for those who actually have some sense.

Snipped abstract of a recent group of studies… just spreading some knowledge to RCers. While JWH-018 appears to be perfectly safe short term, it is likely extremely dangerous in the long run. Doubt many people bother using more than once or twice a week anyway, but daily users might want to cut back a bit until more research is done and published.

“Studies on the metabolism of JWH-018 and of a homologue of CP 47,497, pharmacologically active ingredients of different misused incense (“Spice”) using GC-MS and LC-MSn techniques

Introduction: In the last few months, a new drug has conquered the cannabis market: different types of incenses (trade names “Spice”, “Smoke”, “Sence” and others) have widely been misused by smoking these blends of herbs. Recently, artificial endocannabinoid receptor agonists (JWH-018 and a homologue of CP 47, 497) have been found to be the pharmacologically active principles in these blends. Unfortunately, little is known about these substances.

Aim: The aim of this study was to elucidate the metabolism of JWH-018 and of a homologue of CP 47,497 (CP47).

Methods: Ethanolic extracts were prepared from incenses containing JWH-018 and CP47, respectively. After removal of the ethanol the residues were given to Wistar rats by gastric intubation and urine was collected over 24 hours. For identification, the metabolites were isolated after enzymatic or acidic cleavage of conjugates by liquid-liquid extraction (LLE) or solidphase extraction (C18 ) followed by acetylation and GC-MS analysis. For LC-MS the underivatized extracts were used. Metabolites were identified by interpretation of the EI mass spectra (GC-MS) and enhanced product ion (EPI) scan mass spectra (LC-MS). MS3 experiments allowed differentiation of isomeric metabolites.

Results: The parent compounds JWH-018 and CP47 could be found in the urine extracts. For JWH-018, the N-dealkyl metabolite could be detected as well as the hydroxylated metabolite. The highest signals could be observed for the hydroxylated N-dealkyl metabolites. Hydroxylation took place in the side chain and in both aromatic systems, the naphthalene and the indol part, which could be shown by mass shift of the corresponding fragments and by MS3 experiments. For CP47, several hydroxylated metabolites could be identified. Aliphatic hydroxyl groups could be differentiated from aromatic hydroxyl groups by different fragmentation patterns (loss of water/acetic acid for aliphatic hydroxyl groups).

Conclusion: JWH-018 and CP 47 are extensively metabolized in rats. According to our experience similar metabolic patterns can be expected in humans. Therefore, screening procedures for these drugs in urine should include not only the parent compound but also the corresponding metabolites.”

Hey crispy, I appreciate you sharing the research study. It appears that authorities will soon include these cannabinoids in their official drug screening tests since they know how to detect it in the lab. Kinda of makes you want to go back to the real MJ if this becomes the case.

Hey x1, what say ye to this report. The researchers concluded that the cannabinoids extensively metabolized in rats in which they logically assumed that the same thing is happening with humans. So x1 is this a good or bad thing? It seems to me that it does not stay in the body for long periods and the body is able to process and get rid of them quickly through urine and fece. Its like this research study’s goal was not to determine the safety of the chemicals but how to detect it in drug screening analysis.

It seems like the study inadvertently promoted the safety of the chemicals by proving how it processes (metabolizes) so quickly through the human body thus causing less harm. The research did not address the issue of long term use and effects.

I agree with you. Your statement “the research did not address the issue of long term use and effects” is spot on.

The information crispy posted appears to confirm exactly what the anonymous toxicology assays at the top of this thread suggest….that JWH moves quickly through an animal’s system.

That’s all.

So… then….

I have to ask….

crispy…

Regarding your strange comment:

“While JWH-018 appears to be perfectly safe short term, it is likely extremely dangerous in the long run.”

Please explain why JWH is “likely extremely dangerous in the long run”. This seems unnecessarily hyperbolic, and totally unsubstantiated based on what we currently know about the chemical.

I can understand comments to the effect that we “don’t know enough yet”…or “don’t have enough information”….because we certainly don’t know anything about long term effects of these chemicals. Because, of course, they are too new….not enough time has elapsed in the world.

But when you say “likely extremely dangerous,” this implies you have obtained some concrete knowledge about some facet of the chemical that increases the probability that it is actually physically harmful.

And I would like to know what specific, concrete knowledge you are referencing that makes JWH “likely extremely dangerous in the long run”.

Because from where I’m sitting, that comment doesn’t make sense given the info you just provided. Rather, it just sounds like unhelpful scare-mongering based on something other than actual facts.

Well, I have abstained from smoking spice and jwh for 4 days and my bronchitis is finally easing up. I am sure if I smoked cigarettes it would be the same by leaving them for a few days. I enjoy getting a buzz on so I guess I’m just an old stoner, lol. I do believe that smoking JWH slows down my respiratory system and the smoke irritates the cilia actually helping the virus to fluorish. I bet the first tiem I smoke I’m going to be very buzzed.

Many people are using acetone to make their spice blends. Check the health adverse effects if someone inhales a heavy amount of acetone! The effects sound similar to smoking a spice blend!

Health effects

” After inhaling acetone fumes or ingesting acetone, it enters the blood, which then carries it to all the organs in the body. If it is a small amount, the liver breaks it down to chemicals that are not harmful and uses these chemicals to make energy for normal body functions. Breathing moderate- to-high levels of acetone for short periods of time, however, can cause nose, throat, lung, and eye irritation; headaches; light-headedness; confusion; increased pulse rate; effects on blood; nausea; vomiting; unconsciousness and possibly coma; and shortening of the menstrual cycle in women. ”

Many of the symptoms listed above occur when people smoke JWH-018. So if you add 2+2 together you know that your suffering the effects of the acetone, when you smoke this stuff. Not a good thing!

NO. When you say “Many of the symptoms listed above occur when people smoke JWH-018”, you are being imprecise and distortionary.

If people are smoking BLENDS that contain other crap in them besides JWH, they may experience some of the listed symptoms.

But that’s not JWH.

So stop saying it’s JWH, idiot.

You need to make the intellectual distinction between JWH, on its own….and all these different BLENDS which have all sorts of god knows what goop in them.

Please make that distinction. Can you do that? Can you try and squeeze your tiny brain real hard and make that distinction, and stop blaming the raw JWH chemical for the effects caused by other agents?

If you want to proselytize about the warnings of ACETONE, or the junk chemicals found in BLENDS, then by all means, please do so.

BUT STOP SAYING IT’S JWH, because that’s total bullshit and you are talking out of your ass.

Having just discoursed upon the dangerous effects of ACETONE, wouldn’t it make sense for you to tell people to AVOID BLENDS?

But instead, you seem to be constantly telling people that JWH itself is dangerous, and to avoid JWH because it causes this and that. And those are stupid lies.

I don’t know….maybe you are too stupid to make the consistent distinction between JWH…by itself….and those dirty BLENDS out there that might have JWH as one of their component chemicals.

If you feel called by God to warn people about ACETONE…maybe you should stop referring to it as JWH, or confusing it with JWH. You said JWH fucks up the liver and makes skin and eyes yellow. FALSE. LIE. BULLSHIT. You said JWH makes some people more prone to heart attacks. LIE. BULLSHIT. NO EVIDENCE. NO HEART ATTACKS.

So after all this, you don’t have any actual hard evidence that JWH is harmful at all…..only that ACETONE is. Which everybody already knew.

Gee! Newsflash! Acetone is bad for you! Don’t ingest it or bad shit will happen!

But hey! Why don’t we just blame all that nasty shit on JWH?! Great idea J!!!!!!! Dolt.

I don’t mind ignorant people. Or know-it-all’s. Both can be taught. In regards to the past couple messages here…

I can see both sides, and have to simply add these two cents — yes, JWH-018 is a DRUG. Doing too much of it isn’t good. Trying it once or twice to see what you think about it probably won’t kill you, but making a well-researched decision is a must.

Keep discussion — not cussin’ — going, please! I’m no prude but just think it’s easier on the eyes when folks work at making their points here by using common sense and courtesy, eh?

Why you have to be so rude X1??? Sometimes it seems that you have somekind of economical interest in this substance..why you call an idiot or an asshole to anyone who disagree with your coments regarding to JWH 018? Besides I hope that JWH series chemicals dont be any harm to human body, because to much people have used them since 2008 (in spice alikes blends or in pure form) and it would very sad if there be nasty long term side effects…It seems that everyone is worried about the posible carcinogenity of these compounds, but thats not the only nasty side effect it ”COULD” bring, for example…it could affect your liver, heart, brain, etc…no one knows. Im not saying that people shouldnt do this or that…if someone feels that should do heroin cocaine cannabis lsd mushrooms or even jwh its up to them, but PLEASE BE SAFE MAKE TAKE SOME HARM REDUCTION MESSURES FIRST. (AKA AT LEAST USE A WEIGHT SCALE). Peace.

Should I reason with the liar patiently, and wait on him to stop lying, trusting in good faith that he will come around?

Go back and read through the history of these comments. You will see that I only started getting seriously “rude” with the poster “J” once he kept on dropping unfortunate and unhelpful lies.

The “JWH turns your skin and eyes yellow” crap is just one of several belligerently stupid examples from that poster.

If the idiot asshole wants to try sticking to facts, instead of stoking needless fear and hysteria….then you can bet I will stop thinking of him as an idiot asshole, and will defer back to the civility and good graces suitable for fact-based discussion.

In the meantime, do you doubt my observations about these lies? Can you or “J” or anyone else provide concrete data showing legitimate, serious physiological damage from the substance we are discussing here?

If you cannot, then I hope you will agree with me that the fear-mongering of posters like “J” is indeed idiotic, and the poster is an idiot, and should be treated as such.

As for my own motives…I regret your insinuation that I have something to gain economically from defending the chemical. I have in this thread offered a means of consuming the chemical that is much more safe and reliable than the common (and silly) method of smoking the stuff. I have made ample warnings about dosage and moderation, and I have even discussed, discreetly, two different vendors of the pure chemical, one US-based, and one foreign to the US…and I am affiliated with neither. Don’t you think that if I were in the JWH “business” I would have referenced only a single vendor, or tried to send people to an actual link, or in some overt way actually tried to drum up serious business for myself, the RC industry, and JWH in particular?

But I haven’t done that, have I? Do you think that if I had an economical interest in this chemical, I would be bashing blends, and telling people NOT to smoke it? Come on…get serious.

Now then, if you are going to take me to task for being “rude” dropping f-bombs on liars and calling them idiot assholes….well, how about being fair? How about some criticism also for the ones spewing anti-factual bullshit? Isn’t that a reasonable request?

I agree with X1, no one should state what they THINK are facts until they KNOW and have PROOF. Needless hysteria and worrying among those who were/are using what has until recently been thought to be harmless is not needed until there is hard evidence proving these ailments. I know a friend of a friend that has used the sketchy “blends” frequently for nearly 2 years and has had no adverse symptoms unless combined with high amounts of alcohol which I would believe to be expected. Even after nearly a month of cessation after a year and a half of use had no withdrawal symptoms, even when it was combined with alcohol cessation after about 5 years of very frequent drinking. Even though this is only one case, I’ve discussed the issue with dozens of frequent users, none reporting any issues. Lets stick to the facts and figure this out.

Ok im technically on probation… Its unsupervised but if for some odd reason i get drug tested i dont to fail and have to go back to fuckin jail.(excuse my language) So a good 5 months back i had to make a transfer over to serenity now, which contains that chemical thats being discussed… So far i have come to see that yes it does take more to get u high after the first time and the high doesnt last that long… But me and my frieds for the past 2 months have not missed a day of smokin and sometimes i will admit that we did go over board and we had smoked a good 6 to 8 blunts a day… But thats not the point the point is that i do kno of some side effects that serenity does leave behind(but for some reason not in me) my friends have actually started to get migrains and one of my friends has actually started to have a really bad breathing problem when he smoked this… Also the scariest part about this stuff is that where i live in the same county some one has died and the coroner had publicly announced that this cats death was due to serenity IE cardiac arrest… Granted im sure that this guy had many problems with his heart n serenity may have pushed him over that line between life and death but the fact of the matter is that those same problems that my friends have started to have are the same problems leading up to this mans death… Again im not sure that it was fully serenity but it could have had a good part in it… Also serenity is a aromatic incense right? Well its also a natural pesticide… I can tell u from personal experience(cause we have moved 3 different times since we started smokin this) that it is like a pesticide thatll get u high… Anyone who smokes this should take notice that they dont have any bugs in that spefic room they smoke in… And spiders dont count… But i just realized that and wanted to throw that out there… But i need to kno if serenity can be a cause of death or if its a stupid coroners fictious thinking thats scaring the crap outta my friends…

Oftentimes, I have learned that when issues arise regarding what is the mission or purpose that is behind driving a man, woman, organization, business, or government to act we have to look deep at the objectives, goals, and expected end results. There are many examples around us like the Iraq war, the conflict in Afghanistan, healthcare reform, arms treaty with Russia, etc. In other words, what is the root cause/effect that is driving us to do what we do? When there is no legitimate reason or logic for our actions then conflict arises as to intended purposes.

The question is now put before this thread entitled “JWH-18 Toxicology.” What is the objectives/goals of this discussion thread? What is our mission? The objectives/goals from my viewpoint as a participant is: 1.) To provide scientific related documentation regarding the current and future research of synthetic cannabinoids as it relates to toxicology and safety involving human beings. 2.) To share and document real case scenarios as it relates to toxicology effects on human beings and 3.) To share lessons learned and best practices regarding the safety and use of the synthetic cannabinoids to reduce and or eliminate toxicological risks on human beings.

These three objectives and goals is what I see as our mission statement. I don’t think it is designed around myth busting where unsubstantiated and unreliable information is placed on the thread and someone has to prove that it is incorrect. That’s not in our mission statement. What say ye?

I have smoked my last today. I still have bronchitis but it’s getting better. The bad news is I have prostate cancer. Either radiation or surgery, don’t know yet! But the thing that I want to say is that I am going to go ultra healthy and put the best fight on I can muster. No smoking, no high fats, veggies and fruit will be aplenty. I pray I can make it through and live many more years.

A big big problem I see is that people take an experience they have with some murky blend product (like Spice or Serenity Now) and extrapolate a pseudo-scientific conclusion about the harmfulness of JWH from it…..when of course JWH, if contained in the blend at all, is often one of MANY many constituents in that blend. Most of the blend products only give a partial list of ingredients, often using cover language like “…and other botanical extracts”. For all you know, any purchased blend you smoke could have been sprayed with pesticide, sprinkled with rat poison, or pissed on. God knows what is in that shit.

Take the comments of Josephus. He is talking about Serenity Now. How can any of the things mentioned, migraines or anything else, be attributed to JWH, when the blend contains several constituents, some of them unknown? It is impossible to draw an empirical straight line from this or that malady back to any particular ingredient of the blend. Naturally, JWH gets scapegoated without any real proof or helpful information. It’s just hearsay.

Willie: Do you really think any of your three proposed objectives (which I do think are noble and good ideas) can be met without ardent myth-busting and debunking? I don’t see how we can have any reliable repository of JWH information if such constant baseless claims as we have seen here aren’t immediately and vigorously rooted out and challenged. Isn’t that how good science works? By taking a skeptical position as the default, and forcing people to justify their claims with something other than emotional rhetoric?

But I agree that nobody here has to prove that anything is INCORRECT. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. Like, when someone says that ingesting a particular chemical causes yellowing of skin and eyes, or increases heart attack risk…the burden of proof is on that person to justify that claim with something other than their own inner logic. External hard evidence is needed. And if not provided, the person making the baseless claim should be castigated and run out of town.

Alright, I have read everything… I’ve studied all the responses… & I still smoke a blend. (From the “spice family”) Nothing better for me. It’s a cleaner high. I don’t feel “groggy” or “destroyed”, just wonderfully and happily high… but, I can still work and function JUST fine. I think it’s brilliant. I DO have a serious question tho… I live in Kansas. Most distributors won’t even ship here. We have a couple retail stores that REALLY DEPEND on the revenue from selling the “potpourri blend” (500mg packets) Now, Kansas has made it illegal. I SERIOUSLY need a legal alternative in this state. DOES ANYONE have a legal alternative out there? I don’t care if it’s JWH-019,398 & 250 mixed together… is there a recipe that will pass for Kansas, Ohio, Georgia and other states joining the bandwagon. I agree that it is rediculous to outlaw it… but, whatever. But, I SERIOUSLY NEED a viable alternative in this economy. Please, you all sound pretty smart on this site and “up-to-speed” through your endevors at research… PLEASE tell me that there is something that I can substitute for the -018 & 073 and still get the same basic results (shy of weed…) it’s GOT to be able to beat the tests for HU-210, JWH-018, JWH-073, BZP and TFMPP… those are the particular ones that they have outlawed in this state. Please gimme some info fellas, I really CAN’T afford to loose my store… the economy in this central Kansas town has REALLY tanked. I’m not joking at all. My wife and I have eight ten-age kids between us and ALOT of financial responisilities… this is really important to me… I need some solid advice on this (and NOT about having too many kids, or “…boo-hoo, you shouldn’t have opened a store in this economy”…) agreed… but, what’s done is done. Just please fellas… any insight to a truely good recipe that’ll pass through Kansas law? I just need a little help from some knowledgable folks. I’m beggin ya’all.

I’ve been smoking jwh 018 blends for a while now and i love it. finally something i can enjoy and not have to stress bout gettin in trouble for weed anymore. my favorite brand is serenity now strawberry. im making a homemade batch soon now that i know how they do it. berys imple actually. but anyways i dont think u can OD on it but li have smoked a lil more than i could handle of this stuff. like the other day i smoked about 4 to 5 bowls to myslef of this shit with some freinds and i just got really nausiated and threw up a bit. just like when u burn way tooo much weed. not too bad, its all good now ;] just remember a lil bit of this stuff goes a long way

I found out about Serenity Now about 2 weeks ago. I occassionaly smoked pot (about 1 to 2 times per every 3 to 4 months). Here is my reaction: I smoked it in joint form with a friend and mistakenly treated it like pot. After twitching and flipping out for about 30 minutes, the high occurring in stages, I realized that I had smoked way too much. For me, the high was immediate. So, the next time I smoked the Serenity Now mixture, I smoked it again rolled but only took 3 hits. This was just a bit more than I really needed. So, the next time I took 2 hits… still a little too high but just about right. My boyfriend, however, had never been high in his life. He smoked with me and after about 10 minutes he was saying that he didn’t feel anything. He insisted he didn’t smoke it right. So, regardless of how much I tried to assure him that he would feel it, he smoked another half a joint. Then, he was swimming. Literally swimming because he thought he was under the ocean and he was going to drown. So, yes, he had a bad trip and got a bit retarded. He was high for about 4 hours. All of this said, I still feel a little high today, like reality is kind of hazy. This is all probably a result of the mixture. I do not know about anyone else, but I will give this a few more tries. One mixture stated that catnip was in it… how does catnip effect/affect humans? I will also be drug tested soon for volunteer work (I am a PhD Student working with a local psychiatric center)… I will let you guys honestly know if I pass. They have to do a full background test and blood/piss test. Stay tuned.

Well i m happy to see this discussion alive and informative. I myself have been researching this a lot and cant find any conclusive evidence to suggest people are getting sick or dying from it. I feel there are so many variables that one cant come to any real conclusion as of yet. these herb blends seem to be a major variable because for all we know one could be allergic to the ingredients like someone is to peanuts. I distribute a very reliable blend and it is only 2 ingredients the JWH and a plant source very known and very reliable. Ive yet to see anyone who is not on any medications or taking other drugs become ill or have any real problems. Now i have found some who have issues with the said plant source but clearly that will happen with any natural substance. some are allergic to some things and some are not. with that being said we give full disclosure on our products so our customers can research the source and come to their own decisions. each blend is perfectly balanced and you know when you buy from me its the best quality product. I will not give information in a thread as i only distribute to retail establishments. I do not sell to people on a single basis. we are now going to be distributing to a wide area of small businesses and will inform you when our products have hit enough areas. keep this thread alive and I will inform if any new facts arise.

thanks to all of you for the great info. enjoy your fun but please be smart about it. if you are on any medications do not mix and if you have allergies to any plant source be careful. any one with heart problems or lung problems like asthma do not use this stuff till more research id done.

well joseph, I think you are right about people with health problems should leave j8 alone untill there is more information about he long term effects of it, but personally I have enjoyed it along with my wife for about a year now.we are in our middle fifties and we both are on disability, I have had two heart atacks and am bipolar and also have copd and asthma, my wife has asthma moderate emphesema and clinical depression along with spinal stenosis, I take 14 pills in the morning and 12 a night, my wife takes about half that many, for us it is too risky to fail a drug test. I have had a couple of experiences that were unpleasant for a while , ya know like maybe I shouldn`t have did that last bowl, but the only serious problem I have had ……and maybe it wasn`t the j8 my doctor said I had too many enzymes in my liver, I haven`t used j8 in 3 days and I go for blood work tuesday, if the results show a lesser amount of enzymes I would conclude that the j8 was the culprit, also it is my opinion that anyone using j8 should make their own and use 190 grain alcohol, acetone scares me, it really sucks that the government has been so stupid in the past about legalities about such substances and maybe some day what GOD gave us will be legal as i t damn well should be, to be honest with anybody reading this I wish I had never heard about it {j8} PEACE

say i have 3.5 grams of jwh-018, how much herbal substrate would i need for that amount? also do i just dilute the jwh in pure acetone and spray and mix herbal substrate until solution is gone and then just wait till it completely dries? I want to make it like k2 summit.

Thanks Jim for the in depth information on your conditions. This helps when dealing with medicated people. If you have been experiencing JWH for a year and have enjoyed it with no problems thats a really good sign. If you dont mind me asking could you fill me in on the specific meds you are taking after you get your liver results back? That information can really shed some light on what can mix with JWH and what may potentially not mix.

I don’t imagine anyone on EITHER side of the JWH-018 Toxicity Issue will be coming out saying that the stuff is GOOD for you.

So maybe the basic question here should stay focused on HOW BAD IS IT, to what degree, in what amounts, and in what way(s)?

Too much of ANYTHING is bad or unhealthy or toxic… and addiction is an ugly word… but in my way of doing things it seems that moderate (a couple/few times a week) use of JWH-018 isn’t exactly KILLING me, as far as I can tell. Is it bad/toxic/unhealthy for me to take 2 or 3 hits of it a week? Maybe… but is it worth taking that chance? I think it is.

I KNOW what it was like using weed on a multi-daily basis for a few decades and how doing that affected me, and I’m happy to have quit doing that — TOTALLY. Nowdays, taking a few hits of my own personal JWH blend a week gets me by just fine… as well as being cheaper, legal, and overall less toxic as far as I can tell. Is it a substitute for weed? I don’t think so. It’s just what it is… good and/or bad for me as it may be!

The molecule has an unsubstituted naphtalene ring attached. Taking in account the metabolic pathways suggested on the following paragraph, it is quite possible that it produces epoxides as metabolism intermediates. Epoxides are known to be carcinogenic.

Metabolism: For JWH-018, the N-dealkyl metabolite could be detected as well as the hydroxylated metabolite. The highest signals could be observed for the hydroxylated N-dealkyl metabolites. Hydroxylation took place in the side chain and in both aromatic systems, the naphthalene and the indol part, which could be shown by mass shift of the corresponding fragments and by MS3 experiments.

Safety aside, can’t say I haven’t enjoyed these rc’s 😉 Although I did have a 2-3 times where I ate way too much of #18 and got fucked to retardation.