The_Pauser wrote:No guarantees he takes the next step, but I don't see how it makes sense to invest $6M+ long-term in him hoping that he does. It is his potential to take the next step that has me willing to go up to $5.25M for him, otherwise I would be looking at the $4.2-4.5M range.

So he's worth less than Jason Garrison and more than Filip Kuba based on his All Star season this past year? Hmm.

dbr wrote:Or maybe Bieksa for once isn't dealing with a huge gash on his leg? Funny how a player gets significantly better when he isn't dealing with a significant injury.

Edler played through injuries this past season, if I remember correctly.

And are you seriously trying to argue that playing with Dan Hamhuis doesn't help Kevin Bieksa? I'm not sure even KB would argue that..

I never said Edler WASN'T going to close the gap or surpass Bieksa. I was saying that Edler has not been better than Bieksa, so right now he is not worth more than Bieksa. I recognize Edler's potential to improve and would be comfortable paying him more than Bieksa, but around $2M more is absurd.

Nobody... nobody engaged in this discussion is clamoring to pay Alex Edler $6.6m a year.

I mean sure, a bunch of GMs would if he ever hit unrestricted free agency (in an environment similar to what we have this year), but you're not aguing against them. You're arguing against the straw man you've erected in this thread.

Edler hasn't had to deal with the same physical issues that Bieksa had to deal with. Edler also has almost as much NHL experience as Bieksa has. Usually plyaers develop with experience, and physically. Physical development tends to occur at the very beginning of a players career after they are drafted. The second component comes through experience and with that I fail to see how Edler's age will matter too much in comparison to Bieksa given their NHL experience.

You're completely ignoring what happened prior to these two players making the NHL. By the time Edler was playing his first games in a high level league (the dub in 2005-06) Kevin Bieksa had played four years in the CCHA and a full season in the AHL.

That year was the first in which he played more than 40 games in a season and the third in which he played over 10, he might have the least amount of mileage (ie. experience) of any player with nearly 400 games of NHL experience.

And like I said previously, Bieksa has improved as a player in his late 20s, it's pretty common for defensemen to do this (it's bsaically a cliche that defensemen take longer to develop than forwards), I don't see why it's so unreasonable.

Again, to sum this up: I do think Edler has potential, which is why I would be comfortable making him our highest paid defenseman. However, I do not feel that Edler has been our best defenseman, and the stats support me on this. Edler has had moments where if he wore the number 3 on his jersey people would be trying to run him out of town. Is there a guarantee that he will develop and improve? No. Is it likely that he will? Tough to say, but I am willing to pay to find out. I am just uncomfortable with paying him like he's a legitimate number 1 defenseman when he hasn't proven that he is one.

We are talking about Matt Carle money here.

Look at the guys making $5.5m-$6.5m, it's littered with guys that are not the mythical "legitimate number 1 defenseman" - Carle, Visnovsky, Burns, Seabrook, Green, Timonen, Phaneuf. I'd take a bunch of em on my team, some are as good as or better than Edler, many are not. Over the term of a hypothetical six year deal you'd see a ton of others hit that pay grade that wouldn't be near as good as Edler.

But.. we are talking about the low end of that. I'd be happy with $5.5m for Edler, content with $5.75m-6m and I would see $6-6.5m as the cost of doing business in this league (I wouldn't be happy about it unless we watched him put up a monster season this year). A GM desperate to add talent to his blueline (ie. most of them) might even offer him more in the kind of UFA environment we have today.

Anyway, it's obvious we disagree about how good Edler is now as well as what capacity he has to improve. Not surprising then that you see his value to the team now and in the future differently than I do.

Last edited by dbr on Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dbr wrote:Look at the guys making $5.5m-$6.5m, it's littered with guys that are not the mythical "legitimate number 1 defenseman" - Carle, Visnovsky, Burns, Seabrook, Green, Timonen, Phaneuf. I'd take a bunch of em on my team, some are as good as or better than Edler, many are not. Over the term of a hypothetical six year deal you'd see a ton of others hit that pay grade that wouldn't be near as good as Edler.

But.. we are talking about the low end of that. I'd be happy with $5.5m for Edler, content with $5.75m-6m and I would see $6-6.5m as the cost of doing business in this league (I wouldn't be happy about it unless we watched him put up a monster season this year). A GM desperate to add talent to his blueline (ie. most of them) might even offer him more in the kind of UFA environment we have today.

dbr wrote:Look at the guys making $5.5m-$6.5m, it's littered with guys that are not the mythical "legitimate number 1 defenseman" - Carle, Visnovsky, Burns, Seabrook, Green, Timonen, Phaneuf. I'd take a bunch of em on my team, some are as good as or better than Edler, many are not. Over the term of a hypothetical six year deal you'd see a ton of others hit that pay grade that wouldn't be near as good as Edler.

But.. we are talking about the low end of that. I'd be happy with $5.5m for Edler, content with $5.75m-6m and I would see $6-6.5m as the cost of doing business in this league (I wouldn't be happy about it unless we watched him put up a monster season this year). A GM desperate to add talent to his blueline (ie. most of them) might even offer him more in the kind of UFA environment we have today.

Agreed, a 6 year $35M contract I can see come to fruition.

almost 6 million a year for Edler...makes me wanna puke...the guy is not worth a dime more than any current DMAN we have now...he is severely overrated and fails to show up for the big one...

Hearing that they were far apart in not only money (cap and salary) but also term. Feeling was that the term could get resolved but only if the dollars worked. Edler wants to be paid in the range of other 50 point D men and MG felt he hadn't earned it quite yet given his defensive play. Edler sides feels they should be paid in the high 6 low 7 range over 6 years with significant signing bonus, front loaded. Were willing to take 2-3 more years in term to make the cap work and that was their hometown discount approach. So they wanted 8-9 year deal with a cap in the high 6 range.

MG wasn't biting and is convinced under the new CBA Edler will cost less but the gamble of course is that he becomes UFA, if he still can that is as the owners want that extended by a few years as well. So MG is gambling that the new CBA will be team friendly and Edler will get signed for 4-5 years at Bieksa type money, maybe a little higher. If Edler can still be UFA under the new deal look for him to test the market and look for Detroit to be a front runner. If he can't be UFA and is still RFA look for the Canucks to sign him to a 2-4 year deal (will depend upon when he is UFA) at around the 5 million mark.

On Kane hearing he definitely wants out of Winnipeg and will be more vocal about it once the new CBA is done. Several teams including the Canucks are interested in trading for him but no one wants to do so now until a new CBA is in place. He wants out so badly he was willing to not sign under the existing CBA. Like Edler, the feeling is under the new CBA the team that signs him will get a better team friendly deal and he was prepared to give up some coin and term now to get to a place he wants to go to. Have no idea of where that is.

If it is Edler's position to play hardball at the table then he is showing himself to not be a Gillis type player.

For all the promice we see in Alex with his steady improvement over the years, he has still not taken the reins and shown to be a leader of the defensive corps. He is still error prone especially when pressured with a strong forecheck.

We have seen what he can do, as he did against LA in the spring of 2011. That play is still too rarely seen for the HW outlined demands he is making.

Topper wrote:If it is Edler's position to play hardball at the table then he is showing himself to not be a Gillis type player.

Yup.

Anything at a $6M per year cap-hit is a non-starter for Edler. He will not have the highest cap hit on the team, but I could see him getting slightly more than Kesler, anywhere between $5.25-5.75M per year.

If Edler is intent on getting Doughty money, then he won't be a Canuck for long, unless he plays at a Norris level next season, thus forcing the Canucks' hand.

I've been a big Edler supporter, and I still he has room to grow and improve, but so far he hasn't played at a #1 D-man level for a consistent enough time to get paid like one. Just because he produces at 50 point clip, nothing to scoff at as a d-man, doesn't mean he's performing like a #1 guy.

I'm surprised he hasn't signed, but I still think Edler will re-up in Vancouver at a favorable cap-hit...if not, he's one hell of a trade chip, but only if you can get elite talent in return.

If i recall correctly, Edler's gaffes cost us two games with the Kings last spring. People ride Louongo for being a choker when he needs to step up for the big game(s)... maybe the same could be said about Edler? I don't see him as an elite D man; usually fairly decent through the regular season though and deserving of 5 to 6, not more than that though (IMHO).

nuckster wrote:If i recall correctly, Edler's gaffes cost us two games with the Kings last spring. People ride Louongo for being a choker when he needs to step up for the big game(s)... maybe the same could be said about Edler? I don't see him as an elite D man; usually fairly decent through the regular season though and deserving of 5 to 6, not more than that though (IMHO).

Your memory is correct. Edler did cost the Canucks two games. When healthly, Edler is a good No. 2 defenseman. However, he just does not have what it takes to be a true No. 1. Anything over $5.5m is too much for him.

Any more than $5.5 is too much. He just hasn't earned it yet. Now with the CBA expired, he could very well have screwed himself. I'd like to keep him but if he wasn't going to budge off his $6 mill position before this relatively generous CBA expired, then it may be time to let him go for something else. Kane for Edler, anyone?

Problem is Dmen like him don't grow on trees, even if his gaffes cost the team big time in the playoffs. Who's out there who would be available?