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Just FYI 2 Su 27's from Lipetsk (a Russian "Top gun" school) flew to Langley
air force base where they competed against F-15's. If think it was in 1992.
but what was surprising for some was the fact that the Sukhoi proved to be
better in almost every aspect-there was only one test in which F-15 barely
managed to beat Su 27...Pilot skill??? I agree with those who say that it
plays important role, because it really does... Somehow, I doubt the
Americans would send rookies to compete against Russian pilots, those who
flew in these F-15's probably had lots of experience. I know that Sukhoi's
were operated by Lipetsk school instructors... Anyway, Americans always
relied on hi-tech electronics whereas Russians relied on
super-maneuvreability. Heck, even the Pentagon stated that the new
generation fighter should be capable of doing some of those maneuvres-in
this case Pugachev's cobra...Su 27 the rest of it's "family" except the IB
version are capable of doing it without trust vectoring (Su 37 can do even
more becuse of trust vect.)-I would bet that the F-35 won't be able to do it
even with trust vectoring. (And no, F-18 can't pull off a true Cobra)Why?
Most of Russian fighter classes since 80's are aerodynamicly stable (Ok,
some of them not on every axis)-they tend to rise by themselves where US
fighters tend to fall and need good FBW systems-F 22 would be almost
unflyable without one. When is a US fighter going to be able to do a
Somersault? Some will say those are only things for airshows but in dogfight
they could mean a difference... Not to mention the Su 27's EOS system which
enables him a stealthy detection without the use of radar...some will say
"So what, it covers only 15 km depending on the weather conditions". True,
yet you could detect F-117 with it. Let's face it, stealth may seem a good
idea but it's worth only in BVR fight, planes will always leave IR trails no
matter how invisible they are for radar, not to mention there are ground
systems which can detect stealth planes (they aren't based on doppler effect
as radars are). Besides, I reckon the R-27 and R-77 sound familiar to you,
both excellent in close and BVR fight (although I heard a rumor that one
R-77 missile missed a drone target and hit a civilian airplane, yet this one
is unconfirmed)...Super maneuvreability+R-27 (or some of it's
equivalents)+off boresight capability could pose a serious threat even if an
average pilot flew the plane...Btw...anyone remember that Le Bourget crash
showing K-36 efficiency, I doubt Martin Baker seats are as good as the
"Zvezda" (Ok, probably close, yet not as good)... All in all, I wouldn't be
surprised to see Su kick ass of any US fighter...Just one thing for the
end-the first air-to-air kill of the Gulf War is believed to be a US F-18
shot down by an Iraqi MiG-25 on 17 January 1991. Yeah, the Israeli F-15's
shot down 3 MiG-25's but MiG-25 was capable of doing damage and getting out
of there fast-at 2,8 Mach US fighters could just watch in the Iraqi case
(AIM 120's couldn't do the job)...What is was trying to say the whole time
is that Russian fighters (I'm talkin about Suhkoi's) may or may not be so
perfect, but you sure can't just underestimate them and start shouting US
Air force has the best planes and pilots in the whole wide world...it
hasn't-you all know how the excercise with India went on and I don't have to
explain what it means...

"Icarus" wrote in message
...
As the subject says, I'd like to know which is the best modern jet
fighter
in your opinion??? Personaly, my bet is on Su 27 family-in particular
the
Su
37 fighter...

F-15C. Unchallenged combat record.

How much combat has the SU-27/37 seen?

Call me when they get some actual experience.

Well as far as i remember, there has been air-to-air combat between
Ethiopian and Eriterian (spelling?) Su-27's and MiG-29, in which the Su-27
shot down a couple of MiG-29's, so the Su-27 does have combat experience
against the same aircraft as the F-15.

OK, is it 120-0?

As far as I know the F-15 has "only" fought against Iraqi and Serbian
MiG's,
so they do have similar combat experience, although the F-15 most likely
have flown more combat hours.

"Icarus" wrote in message
...
As the subject says, I'd like to know which is the best modern jet
fighter
in your opinion??? Personaly, my bet is on Su 27 family-in
particular
the
Su
37 fighter...

F-15C. Unchallenged combat record.

How much combat has the SU-27/37 seen?

Call me when they get some actual experience.

Well as far as i remember, there has been air-to-air combat between
Ethiopian and Eriterian (spelling?) Su-27's and MiG-29, in which the
Su-27
shot down a couple of MiG-29's, so the Su-27 does have combat experience
against the same aircraft as the F-15.

OK, is it 120-0?

No, I just wanted to point out that the Flanker has shotdown aircrafts of
the same type as the F-15 has.

As far as I know the F-15 has "only" fought against Iraqi and Serbian
MiG's,
so they do have similar combat experience, although the F-15 most likely
have flown more combat hours.

TJ, the Su-37 was re-converted back to Su-35 due to FBW enhacement that gave
the virtually same maneuverablity as with TV engines. Ken Duffey wrote about
this. I don't know if we are talking about the same one that crashed, since
I am too lazy to browse my archive .

Nele

NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA

TJ wrote in message . ..
"Icarus" wrote in message
...
As the subject says, I'd like to know which is the best modern jet
fighter
in your opinion??? Personaly, my bet is on Su 27 family-in particular the
Su
37 fighter...

The one and only SU-37 FLANKER E crashed a couple of years ago. The
aircraft carried the number 711.

Now, "raw" figures point to the situation above.However, the introduction of
R-77 for Russian (Su-27, Su-30), Indian (MiG-21/93, modified MiG-29-12b,
"custom" Su-30MKI) and Malesian AF ("custom" MiG-29SE) could change tide-but
only on "figures" side. Naval multirole fighters would include F/A-18 (US,
all versions, series, proven) and MiG-29K (by "figures" for India, very
similar to MiG-29SMT/M).

But, the pilot QUALITY is a big factor-for example, handful of Iraqi
MiG-25PD(e)'s piloted by elite pilots were dangerous, while their numerous
MiG-23ML/29As piloted by inepts were sitting ducks. Same goes for alleged
victory of Ethyopian (Russian-flown) Su-27s over Erythreyan
(Ukrainian-flown) MiG-29s (using R-73 missiles).

Now, "raw" figures point to the situation above.However, the introduction
of
R-77 for Russian (Su-27, Su-30), Indian (MiG-21/93, modified MiG-29-12b,
"custom" Su-30MKI) and Malesian AF ("custom" MiG-29SE) could change
tide-but
only on "figures" side. Naval multirole fighters would include F/A-18 (US,
all versions, series, proven) and MiG-29K (by "figures" for India, very
similar to MiG-29SMT/M).

But, the pilot QUALITY is a big factor-for example, handful of Iraqi
MiG-25PD(e)'s piloted by elite pilots were dangerous, while their numerous
MiG-23ML/29As piloted by inepts were sitting ducks. Same goes for alleged
victory of Ethyopian (Russian-flown) Su-27s over Erythreyan
(Ukrainian-flown) MiG-29s (using R-73 missiles).

Nele

NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA

Look...It's Kurt Plummer, reconstituted, translated into Russian, then back
to English.

"Nele VII" wrote in message ...
TJ, the Su-37 was re-converted back to Su-35 due to FBW enhacement that gave
the virtually same maneuverablity as with TV engines. Ken Duffey wrote about
this. I don't know if we are talking about the same one that crashed, since
I am too lazy to browse my archive .

Nele

NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA

Yes I know that. It was simply to make it easier on the original
poster without going into details. Most people know 711 as the Su-37,
but are unaware of its re-designation. Recent reports from Russia
suggest that they will re-launch the Su-37 with a new-build aircraft.