Talk:Divine Liturgy

Please take a look and make any emendations necessary. --Basil 14:43, 23 Jan 2005 (CST)

Divine Liturgy texts

Would it be useful to put a copy of Abp. Dmitri's (OCADOS) translation here on OrthodoxWiki ? AFAIK it is freely reproducible. --Rdr. Chris 18:22, 25 Jan 2005 (CST)

Perhaps links to online copies would be best. After all, if we put one usage on OrthodoxWiki, we'd conceivably have to put them all on. :) I think most already exist in external links, anyhow. --Rdr. Andrew 18:41, 25 Jan 2005 (CST)

I think we should consider a page to link to and discuss various translations of the Divine Liturgy. We could also have a place to discuss particular texts in quest and more general principles of translation. Fr. John

Lots of Markup leading to a "portal" article

I put in a lot more markup and made some minor changes in wording to make the rendering more literal, e.g. "Only One is holy" became "One is holy", and "without change" became "without corruption" (which means change, but is lexically much richer).

Why add so much markup? I was thinking that this article could serve as a kind of category article into specialized topics in the Divine Liturgy. There's a wealth of reflection on these issues (e.g. Taft's hundreds of pages on the Great Entrance or the diptychs. Certainly there are some experts in our Orthodox community who could provide much more information about these things.

I guess I'm looking not only for an historical overview of practices, but also descriptions of the diversity that continues today within and among Orthodox jurisdictions. God-willing, in time, OrthodoxWiki will be uniquely suited to this kind of task. What do you think? FrJohn 00:04, 26 Jan 2005 (CST)

Yes, exactly. I've read Fr. Taft's short book on the Byzantine Rite as well has his book Liturgy of the Hours in East and West, but not the one that everyone talks about on the Liturgy. What I put up was mostly to get people going, not be the Thing Itself. --69.240.202.6 05:59, 26 Jan 2005 (CST)

I added a "Bibliographical Resources" section, with several titles that I'm familiar with. I declined to list several seminal texts on liturgical studies in general, such as the obvious Shape of Liturgy by Dix, Introduction to Liturgical Theology by Schmemann, or Byzantine Rite by Taft, feeling that these would belong more appropriately in a more general article. --69.240.202.6 07:08, 26 Jan 2005 (CST)

I did the same thing myself today :-). All the above sounds good -- the nice thing about a wiki is that almost everything is provisional! We're always growing, together. Fr. John

Antidoron & Prosphora

It was explained by our hieromonk that only that portion that is cut away from the lamb is antidoron (in the Russian tradition), that portion is reserved and generally given to those Orthodox who did not commune or to be taken to those that could not attend. The remaining loaves (after their use in the preparation) are then broken and provided to everyone, Orthodox and non-Orthodox alike after Communion. This is termed prosphora. I am not sure how universal this is within the Russian tradtion, so I was hesitant about noting this in the article under the Preparation &/or Communion/Dismissal section. Thoughts ? --Rdr. Chris 08:32, 26 Jan 2005 (CST)

My initial response is to recommend that for an article on antidoron or prosphora. Also, if I recall discussions on this subject correctly, the Greek practice uses one large loaf, not five separate loaves. My experience is that the bread given out is termed antidoron indiscriminately (and I'm OCA, so I'm mostly familiar with the Russian tradition, less with others). Again, I would probably put that in separate article myself. Anyone else? --Basil 09:10, 26 Jan 2005 (CST)

The standard Greek practice is normally to use five large loaves. That is also the Antiochian practice. For liturgies where expected attendance is low, that number may be lowered, but the norm is to use five.

I agree that a separate article is worth doing—be sure to link to http://www.prosphora.org/ (and perhaps solicit the site maintainer to contribute). --Rdr. Andrew 09:20, 26 Jan 2005 (CST)

Thanks for the inputs, the indiscriminate use of the terms antidoron/prosphora (at least in our communtity which has a Greek parish and our OCA mission) was precisely why our priest gave a short explanation of which was which. --Rdr. Chris 09:29, 26 Jan 2005 (CST)

I'll solicit an article from Fr. George of www.prospohora.org since he's a friend of mine from seminary. In my mind, antidoron (lit. "instead of the gifts") refers to the blessed but not consecrated bread distributed to the faithful (and sometimes others) after Communion. "Prosphora" ("offering") refers to all the bread baked, which then is brought in, used for the Lamb and commemorations, and then some of which is distributed as antidoron.

Also, perhaps someone will correct me, but it seems that, however many loaves are used for antidoron in Greek practice, only one is used for the prothesis - i.e. the Lamb and the commemorations. Of course, we use five small loaves in Russian tradition, one for the Lamb, one for the Theotokos, one for the saints, one for the living, and one for the departed. What remains from all of those loaves of prosphora is used as antidoron (so there is no waste). If a bishop is serving, he may have his own loaves for the living and the departed. Fr. John

Sorry, Father, but the Byzantine practice is to use multiple loaves (at least 2) even for the proskomedia, too. :) They do all have the same seal on them, though. Whether particles are taken from all 5 or from just 2 seems to vary, though, from what I have witnessed.

My understanding of the distinction between antidoron and prosphora is the same as yours, though—prosphora is the bread in general, from which the lamb and the antidoron are taken. References: [1], [2].

It's interesting the way y'all use prothesis and proskomedia, though—the usage I'm familiar with is that the Proskomedia is the service, whereas the prothesis is the table on which that service is performed. Hmmm... I can't wait to get my Blackwell's Dictionary of Eastern Christianity in the mail. I'll consult the ODCC when I get home, too. --Rdr. Andrew 10:49, 26 Jan 2005 (CST)

Correction accepted. You can tell that I don't have much experience serving at Greek parishes :-). About the proskomeia and prothesis - I'm actually confused about this. I do usually refer to the service as "proskomedia", although I've seen it titled "Prothesis" in many service books too. Best I can tell is that they're interchangable, but it would be good to know the history of this. Someone asked me about the difference between the two terms recently, and I didn't know what to tell him. Maybe I'll ask around a little bit. There are many wells of knowledge hiding about! Fr. John

Just received word from on high that they are used interchangably. Now I guess the question is why?, or what's the history of that? Fr. John

I'm going to type up the Blackwell article on prothesis and put it up somewhere. It's by Archimandrite Ephrem and rather thorough. Should be helpful. I'll let you know where I put once it's done. --Basil 11:50, 26 Jan 2005 (CST)