FUDU wrote:I think you're being obtuse, or just missing the point. Message does count. Being a centrist I'm fine with their protest, fine with some points of their message, I think, b/c again they are so vague.

Are you personally fine with their stated facts that poses as a substantial part of their message?

Right, I'm being obtuse after the Satan Worship comment.

Their message, IMO, is, "shit ain't working". The details of the message (be they as they may) are fungible.

The message is, finally, "someone needs to get shit right".

Millions of people concur because, well, shit ain't working.

I don't care about their 'stated facts'. If that's what people are focusing on here it's clear that those folks are the ones being obtuse or missing the point. Either that or too tied up by their own agendas to consider the POTENTIAL power of a movement such as this.

No the point is we know shit aint working, this isn't Einstein Occupying Wall Street, but yelling about it in the street doesn't change that in and of itself. They've stood up and spoke, OK fine. I have zero problem with that, nobody has a problem with it. Now what can be done about fixin the shit that aint working? Hence the importance of their message.

They're regurgitating what we already know, are you just glad they're attempting to do something b/c you aren't or can't? Serious question. As for potential power of a movement like this, that is exactly the concern of some people. Just b/c they're protesting doesn't = good results to follow.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:No the point is we know shit aint working, this isn't Einstein Occupying Wall Street, but yelling about it in the street doesn't change that in and of itself. They've stood up and spoke, OK fine. I have zero problem with that, nobody has a problem with it. Now what can be done about fixin the shit that aint working? Hence the importance of their message.

They're regurgitating what we already know, are you just glad they're attempting to do something b/c you aren't or can't? Serious question. As for potential power of a movement like this, that is exactly the concern of some people. Just b/c they're protesting doesn't = good results to follow.

Last time, I'm not concerned about the message. It will change a million times, hopefully into something coherent and realistic.

As for me, I'm ambivalent as are many others. It seems too far gone and it seems more people are content to say, "Fuck it, nothing I can do" or they spend their time bitching about the other side and blaming every GD thing on one party or the other.

Millions of people are saying this is unacceptable and untenable. THAT'S the effing message. Not their list of demands. Now leaders on both sides need to (or should, anyway) appeal to those people, give this some shape and provide parameters and realistic goals.

I don't care if it's like a child crying. It gets someone's attention (or, again, it should).

FUDU wrote:No the point is we know shit aint working, this isn't Einstein Occupying Wall Street, but yelling about it in the street doesn't change that in and of itself. They've stood up and spoke, OK fine. I have zero problem with that, nobody has a problem with it. Now what can be done about fixin the shit that aint working? Hence the importance of their message.

They're regurgitating what we already know, are you just glad they're attempting to do something b/c you aren't or can't? Serious question. As for potential power of a movement like this, that is exactly the concern of some people. Just b/c they're protesting doesn't = good results to follow.

Last time, I'm not concerned about the message. It will change a million times, hopefully into something coherent and realistic.

As for me, I'm ambivalent as are many others. It seems too far gone and it seems more people are content to say, "Fuck it, nothing I can do" or they spend their time bitching about the other side and blaming every GD thing on one party or the other.

Millions of people are saying this is unacceptable and untenable. THAT'S the effing message. Not their list of demands. Now leaders on both sides need to (or should, anyway) appeal to those people, give this some shape and provide parameters and realistic goals.

I don't care if it's like a child crying. It gets someone's attention (or, again, it should).

I completely agree overall, and with CDT's last post, and I too am pretty sick of what is going on in general. But there comes a time after the yelling and protesting of being fed up in which solutions and answers need presented. That is a big part of so many people's concern on this. Just b/c you're sick & tired of how things are doesn't mean he decision makers are going to bend over backwards and grant you your wish. What is the motivation for the HMFIC to do so? So OWS sin't happy with how things are, then WHAT do they want, how do they wants things to be?

That's the point. B/C if they can't answer that then they have little to stand on.

We're not that far off on this, I'm just coming from the becareful what you wish for angle.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

I'd tell the HMFIC ignore it at your own peril. Protests, which have been mostly peaceful (with the exception of the over zealous cops), can quickly turn into riots. Like we saw in London.... and NOBODY wants that.

Maybe, but the HMFIC has the goods right? He has the power, according to the reasons for all this protest, so why wouldn't he say get lost Dbags?

If they haven't represented us as they should leading up to now, how is yelling in the streets going to change their position? Now IMO if protesting this is the action needed, then I'd rather see a large number of people just go all the way and say fuck it, we're not working for you anymore. But that too contains lots of risk. Hell we can't get people to boycott a sporting event, the above sure aint gonna happen.

You must have more faith in their sincerity as reps than I do though.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:You constantly over simplify and dumb it down by saying "yelling in the streets".

Until they come up with alternative solutions that is exactly what it is, with more of a monotone whisper to it. Unless of course big government and wall street have credited your accounts, to which then I'm the one getting fucked now, DAMNIT!

Honestly, what do you see happening from this new movement, in the short term?

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

Thinking about these kind of movements in the short term is erroneous IMO, and it's hard to say what will come from it, I hope massive reform. I believe they're in it for the long haul, the way it's spread and the amount of people involved makes it a tinderbox... The Tea Party should be out there with 'em.

^The United States after giving into the demands of OWS (free college anyone). Well maybe like 10 years after we do that when austerity measures TAKE/STEAL what left wing hippie, or um, Haighter, was given by weak pols.

I'll be moving next door to CDT, cuz he has lots of guns.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Thinking about these kind of movements in the short term is erroneous IMO, and it's hard to say what will come from it, I hope massive reform. I believe they're in it for the long haul, the way it's spread and the amount of people involved makes it a tinderbox... The Tea Party should be out there with 'em.

There are several issues where the Tea Party and OWS overlap, but they will never be able to isolate those and act in unison. That is somewhat pointed out in the opinion piece I posted. The tea party and its social conservatism (I don't agree with pushing it onto other people) and the OWS's free college and other fun stuff will keep them at a distant arms length.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

Personally, in terms of free college? Please. What they should do is eliminate aid for college.

You wanna see prices come down? That'll do it. It'll be like priceline.com when kids and parents that can't pay $20k a year for BGSU or Kent go to talk costs with admissions directors who can't fill a classroom.

peeker643 wrote:Like I said, the demands and messages are out of whack. So be it.

Personally, in terms of free college? Please. What they should do is eliminate aid for college.

You wanna see prices come down? That'll do it. It'll be like priceline.com when kids and parents that can't pay $20k a year for BGSU or Kent go to talk costs with admissions directors who can't fill a classroom.

peeker643 wrote:Like I said, the demands and messages are out of whack. So be it.

Personally, in terms of free college? Please. What they should do is eliminate aid for college.

You wanna see prices come down? That'll do it. It'll be like priceline.com when kids and parents that can't pay $20k a year for BGSU or Kent go to talk costs with admissions directors who can't fill a classroom.

No more kids coming out into no jobs with $60k of debt hanging over them.

Good thing you put the winking emoticon in there, otherwise I would've thought you were serious.

It's another clusterfuck CDT. I'm half-joking. There need to changes there too IMO as it's a huge money grab. The best and brightest will always be okay. But there are plenty of successful people who weren't that and who are more and more handicapped by those big loan payments when they get out.

Not to mention you can pile up $20k-$30k in loans sending the kid that has no clue what they want to do to school only to see them flunk out or leave.

I'm not doing it. My oldest is the typical 16-17 yr old that has no idea who she really is or what she wants to be. I'm really inclined to go the local branch campus route or something like that for the first two years while she figures it out.

I firmly believe you grow up a lot at school so I want her to go for her junior and senior years, but I can save a lot of money the other way. And I'm not sure there's a huge upside to sending her somewhere to live the first two years anyway at a state or regional school. She's not going to Harvard or a school where that degree paves your way anyway. She's going to get what is the equivalent these days of what a high school diploma was 25 years ago.

She needs to have that and there's the likelihood she'll mature and want a lot more (which is the hope) but I just don't know how smart it is to spend the state school room and board from Jump Street.

I think you have a good plan with your child peeker, and I agree that entering the adult life/workforce in loads of debt is not a good system. Lending for further education needs a lot of work, and to go along with that IMO the entire way we structure mortgages needs a virtual 100% over haul. There are short cuts and stuff that can and probably be common place and the financial institutions would still make plenty of money. Problem is it takes patience, on their part.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

peeker643 wrote:Personally, in terms of free college? Please. What they should do is eliminate aid for college.

Damn right. Defer, or otherwise shelter a man from payment and its easy to jack shit up at rates many times inflation. Student aid is much like health insurance, both have lead to insane amounts of inflation because the payer and payee aren't involved in a direct transaction.

Get OWS to start saying things like that and less...and I'll support the group.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

The only areas that are really in high demand right now are nursing and some IT fields. Just don't let her make the mistake I did, I got a degree in something that really interested me, Sociology...... but there is 0.0 demand for anyone in that field. I thought about going back a getting history degree, but why the fuck would I jump back in the hole I just climbed out of? I got a job I don't hate and there's a good chance for promotion, I guess that's really all you can ask for.... which in a way is kinda sad.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:The only areas that are really in high demand right now are nursing and some IT fields. Just don't let her make the mistake I did, I got a degree in something that really interested me, Sociology...... but there is 0.0 demand for anyone in that field. I thought about going back a getting history degree, but why the fuck would I jump back in the hole I just climbed out of? I got a job I don't hate and there's a good chance for promotion, I guess that's really all you can ask for.... which in a way is kinda sad.

So you're in the 0% group?

Hey but you got a spider.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

Here are what the signs I saw at the Grant Park Chicago protests said:

1. Eat the rich (I saw 2 of these in 2 different areas..strange enough once)2. END THE WAR3. No to racism4. Bush = war criminal5. Wake up6. No more tax cuts until more jobs7. Don't feed the greed8. Peace

Talk about a grab bag of bitches.

If I were right out of school I would be really pissed right now too after working so hard and long to find the American dream isn't there right now. That said, I certainly wouldn't line-up and waste time with that crew.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I'd tell the HMFIC ignore it at your own peril. Protests, which have been mostly peaceful (with the exception of the over zealous cops), can quickly turn into riots. Like we saw in London.... and NOBODY wants that.

Bullshit

There are many there who want exactly that

Hope is a moment now long pastThe Shadow of Death is the one I castKoo koo ka joob....I am the Walrus

Peeker is absolutely right in that the wide availability of loan money is a major factor in the skyrocketing cost of college.

And the ridiculous notions that everyone should go to college, and that a college degree is in some way a "right", work to devalue the 4-year degree for everyone.

One thing that baffles (amuses?) me about the OWS protests is kids pissed off that they went into debt $100,000 getting a degree in transgendered vaginal studies that they now find is utterly worthless, and they want to blame....a big bank?

My best career advice (I guess you could say I've been in the "careers" business for 30+ years) for any young people today would be to learn a foreign language...if possible by going to the country and immersing in it for at least a year (exchange student programs in the first year after H.S.) Probably Spanish, Chinese, Japanese would be the best bets. Private and public sector employers will beat a path to their door.

Accounting is still very hot....not too many unemployed BS Accounting grads pounding the pavement these days. Also engineering disciplines like Civil (infrastructure projects) Electrical (power, not necessarily electronics) mostly because the old guard is retiring and we're not growing enough replacements...also Environmental...for obvious reasons. IT and nursing are givens.

Food science (relatively recession proof) is another good area. But back to my premise...couple any one of these skill sets with foreign language fluency...and a young job-seeker will have a leg up on their English-only speaking competitors.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

Today I was walking down the street and I passed a crazy homeless guy who was loudly talking to himself, yelling and agressively pointing at people. Same old shit just another day in the city right? He scared the hell out of two older tourist/suburban looking women and scared away some pigeons that he tried to kick as well.

What exactly was he saying and what was his message? I don't know.

How is he different from the other 5 homeless guys/week I see acting like this? I don't know.

How can you not see the parallels? I don't know.You weren't that guy screaming, pointing and kicking pigeons were you? I don't know.

Both seem to have a lot they are very upset about.Both seem to want to loudly vocalize their issues and let the world know.Both seem to lack the ability to communicate one or two key messages or effectively verbalize solutions.Both seem ok with living on the street.

by Cerebral_DownTime » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:01 pm What do you want to know? Maybe I can help since i'm the de facto TCF OWS spokesmen

CDT, since you want to help and all, can you please explain how the maniacal rantings of the homeless guys walking around our cities are different from the maniacal rantings of the protesters walking around our cities? To me the differences are too subtle to detect.

Why should I listen to, applaud and respect one while avoiding and ignoring the other? To do so seems arbitrary and even hypocritical.

I realize that you must be swamped with all of the activity and rigor around owning a fucking pet spider but you know, if you get a second to pull yourself away to shed some light on this it would be excellent.

Well i'd say that OWS has a message, the homeless guy yelling at the bushes because they stole his sandwich doesn't, other than he's crazy and should receive some sort of government paid help..... or at least removed from public view so he doesn't scare people. Plus you haven't seen anything, i've seen a homeless guy drop his pants and shit in the middle of a crosswalk in broad daylight..... right by the old Krogers near the short north.

And before you ask "what's the message". To simplify it, it's "We're tired of seeing those who have it all get more while the rest of just pay for it. We're tired of seeing the people who wrecked our economy collecting huge bonuses while not paying their fair share."

They're pissed off, and they feel if they don't stand up and say something, nothing will change.

Hear I sit, 3am on fucking Tuesday morning going over the 50+ applications sent in for 1maintenance job we have open, we posted the ad last Thursday afternoon. Some of these people are applying from as far away as Newark, Mt. Vernon, and Grove City.

I am glad to see people from different cities looking around. It is not for everyone, but being able to move helps a ton with finding a job. A quick look on indeed.com shows 22,000 job openings (making greater than $40,000) in the Denver area. Ironically, fewer than 22,000 showed up for occupy Denver.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Hear I sit, 3am on fucking Tuesday morning going over the 50+ applications sent in for 1maintenance job we have open, we posted the ad last Thursday afternoon. Some of these people are applying from as far away as Newark, Mt. Vernon, and Grove City.

Curious to know how many of them are qualified (on paper) to do the job you have, and are considered by you to be worth interviewing (if you had unlimited time). Just wondered if your percentages are anything like mine when I post an open position as a third party.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken