Hardly. That I have no love for Ultramontanism does not mean I have an aversion to all things Latin. your prejudice is showing.

Haha, I could have said this. I'm not fond of Ultramontanism either.

Anyone who seethes over Jansenism as much as I do doesn't even like the word Ultramontanism. I fall short of calling it a heresy. Although it probably is. I know not. Depending on who's speaking of it the definition of Ultramontanism seems to change like the wind.

Hardly. That I have no love for Ultramontanism does not mean I have an aversion to all things Latin. your prejudice is showing.

Haha, I could have said this. I'm not fond of Ultramontanism either.

Anyone who seethes over Jansenism as much as I do doesn't even like the word Ultramontanism. I fall short of calling it a heresy. Although it probably is. I know not. Depending on who's speaking of it the definition of Ultramontanism seems to change like the wind.

Thank you for the photographs, gentlemen.

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The definition here seems to be "anyone who is in communion with the pope" and is so quite willingly.

Ultramontanism is a term taken from the Enlightenment era Austria and Germany, in which there were two fractions, the Ultramontanists and the Josephinists/Febrionists. The Josephinists called from state control of the Church, vernacular liturgy, and delegalisation of monastic orders. The Ultramontanists called the Papal control of the Church, Latin liturgy, and supported the rights of the Church to run schools, hospitals, and monasteries. The Ultramontanists were the minority of the nobility, the majority of the commonfolk. The Josephinists were the majority of nobility and biurocracy, non-existent among the commonfolk. From another angle, Josephinists viewed the Church only as a biurocratic instrument of the State and its goals negating the spiritual and mystical, sacramental life of Christianity. Josephinism is also associated with the values of middle class biurocracy and capitalism. Ultramontanism was viewed as the religion of the underpriveliged rural "rabble".

Ultramontanism is a term taken from the Enlightenment era Austria and Germany, in which there were two fractions, the Ultramontanists and the Josephinists/Febrionists. The Josephinists called from state control of the Church, vernacular liturgy, and delegalisation of monastic orders. The Ultramontanists called the Papal control of the Church, Latin liturgy, and supported the rights of the Church to run schools, hospitals, and monasteries. The Ultramontanists were the minority of the nobility, the majority of the commonfolk. The Josephinists were the majority of nobility and biurocracy, non-existent among the commonfolk. From another angle, Josephinists viewed the Church only as a biurocratic instrument of the State and its goals negating the spiritual and mystical, sacramental life of Christianity. Josephinism is also associated with the values of middle class biurocracy and capitalism. Ultramontanism was viewed as the religion of the underpriveliged rural "rabble".

I am so grateful to you for doing this. It is particularly useful as you make the distinction that allows us to see two, at least primary, perspectives among the nobility. This difference one finds among the noble or aristocratic houses follows through all the way into the beginning of the 20th century and the Fall of Eagles.

Ultramontanism is a term taken from the Enlightenment era Austria and Germany, in which there were two fractions, the Ultramontanists and the Josephinists/Febrionists. The Josephinists called from state control of the Church, vernacular liturgy, and delegalisation of monastic orders. The Ultramontanists called the Papal control of the Church, Latin liturgy, and supported the rights of the Church to run schools, hospitals, and monasteries. The Ultramontanists were the minority of the nobility, the majority of the commonfolk. The Josephinists were the majority of nobility and biurocracy, non-existent among the commonfolk. From another angle, Josephinists viewed the Church only as a biurocratic instrument of the State and its goals negating the spiritual and mystical, sacramental life of Christianity. Josephinism is also associated with the values of middle class biurocracy and capitalism. Ultramontanism was viewed as the religion of the underpriveliged rural "rabble".

Thank you.

Reading this has sort the other thoughts I have read on this. I do know that throughout Europe the state has generally controlled the Church in various ways. Except in one book written by Fr. Avery Cardinal Dulles I have only read of Ultramontanists in the very negative. With a background in Modern French History, I must admit most of the books I have read have been written by damnable heretics.

I must also admit that I seem to have an inability to shake Montanism from Ultramontanism in a false cognitive association. I remind myself ultramontane is an awkward if not pejorative way of saying 'Beyond the Mountains'. In this way, while I reside in North America, I must be an Ultramare; that is, beyond the seas.

I must also admit that I seem to have an inability to shake Montanism from Ultramontanism in a false cognitive association. I remind myself ultramontane is an awkward if not pejorative way of saying 'Beyond the Mountains'. In this way, while I reside in North America, I must be an Ultramare; that is, beyond the seas.

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I wonder if "ultramontane" has caused a lot of confusion, inasmuch as to an ultramontanist the non-ultramontanist are "ultramontane". (Similarly, if I were to "cross the tiber", that would mean leaving the Catholic Church.)

I must also admit that I seem to have an inability to shake Montanism from Ultramontanism in a false cognitive association. I remind myself ultramontane is an awkward if not pejorative way of saying 'Beyond the Mountains'. In this way, while I reside in North America, I must be an Ultramare; that is, beyond the seas.

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I wonder if "ultramontane" has caused a lot of confusion, inasmuch as to an ultramontanist the non-ultramontanist are "ultramontane". (Similarly, if I were to "cross the tiber", that would mean leaving the Catholic Church.)

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Interesting you should ask. They are not Icons in the sense you are thinking but, rather, they are Retablos, a traditional New Mexican form of religious art which dates back to the Spanish Colonial period. I have always thought they resembled icons too.

Here is a close up of a traditional retablo from New Mexico

And here:

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Note: You have to be careful when looking for a good traditional New Mexican Retablo. Unfortunately, the artsy/hippie type know to dwell in Santa Fe has adopted the style, and as a consequence, there are some very ugly/gaudy pieces out there that are masquerading as Retablos.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Very icon-ish indeed. I might venerate one if it depicted an Orthodox Saint and didn't contain anything goofy like those "icons" painted by Robert Lenz.

I had a Franciscan priest, friend named Fr. Robert, who made a relief of St. Seraphim of Serov. The relief was somewhere between Icon and Retablo. I have a print of it sitting around somewhere. If I can find it and upload it, I will share it here online.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

If you check this link: http://www.lorettochapel.com/history.html You will find images of Loretto Chapel in Santa Fe, NM. The stair case in the chapel was supposedly built by St. Joseph, and was made without nails.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Every year on Good Friday, thousands of New Mexicans make make a pilgrimage to the Santuario, in honor of our Lord's passion. Some even go seeking miraculous healings.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

I have actually been there. There is a beautiful charm to the plain statuary.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

It's depressing that the beautiful High Altars in Roman Catholic Churches are now, for the most part, fancy candle and flower holders behind a plain table. It's going to take something monumental to (literally and figuratively) turn things around again.

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"You must have an opinion on everything and loudly confront everyone with it." - Cyrillic

It's depressing that the beautiful High Altars in Roman Catholic Churches are now, for the most part, fancy candle and flower holders behind a plain table. It's going to take something monumental to (literally and figuratively) turn things around again.

A promenade over Google shows that you're probably right. Modern Catholic churches are generally too plain for my liking.

This is the altar of the Sacred Heart in Galissos, Ano Syros (by the style, dating from the 19th century):

This is the local parish here in the outskirts of Colchester, St Teresa of Lisieux. They may have thought that, since it serves a primary school, this style would be more or less child-proof, but... yeahno.

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'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

It's depressing that the beautiful High Altars in Roman Catholic Churches are now, for the most part, fancy candle and flower holders behind a plain table.

I fail to understand why you did that. Old-fashioned Catholicism seems extremely beautiful while this present outlook with tables and all that seems fairly dull.

Well, I didn't do it!

Modern Catholicism is incredibly dull for the most part. Basically, you go and a guy in a drab gown-like thing talks at you for a few minutes, then he sits there and looks at you while some people waltz around the sanctuary and read Scriptures. Then the vested guy gets back up and talks at you again for another 15 minutes or so, he then play acts the Last Supper, everyone goes and grabs communion, then the guy talks a little more at you. And everyone rushes for the exit. It struck me at Mass this morning just how little that goes on in the modern Mass could pass for worship...

YMMV. In fact, your mileage will vary because every parish is different. The only parishes I've ever found that were alike offered the Tridentine Mass -- I've been to many such places around the USA and its always the same reverent worship in such places. If all Catholicism were like that, I'd have a hard time leaving. Since its not, I'm having a hard time staying.

« Last Edit: August 11, 2013, 05:09:09 PM by ErmyCath »

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"You must have an opinion on everything and loudly confront everyone with it." - Cyrillic