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Re: The "Flacco Thread" (Merged from 5 threads)

Originally Posted by GOTA

What is he in wins? That seems to be basis for the money he's looking for. Funny how a QB thinks he should be paid big money for team wins.

Given the offenses that the Ravens will face in the next 4 weeks, I cannot see (expect) the defense to win many games from here on out. So if the Ravens win, the "team win" will be largely the responsibility of the offense, which in-turn will be largely the responsibility of Flacco.

He's got a great opportunity in front of him to earn his keep. Last Sunday's game was not a good start (and he can ill afford any more performances like that in the next 4 weeks).

Re: The "Flacco Thread" (Merged from 5 threads)

Originally Posted by bmorecareful

Yeah, I'm just kidding. Eli's fine.

But, interestingly enough, he was definitely NOT fine his first 5 years in the league. He only broke an 80 QBR once, despite a ton of offensive talent around him, and cost his team a ton of games each year.

The Flacco comparisons have already been made quite a bit, so I won't make them again, it's just a reminder to not give up on a guy.

Want to see something even crazier, look at Tom Brady's stats his first 5 years in the league and compare them to Flacco's. they are VERY close. It's no coincidence that those were the seasons the patriots actually WON a Super Bowl and it was when they had a dominating defense/run game to go along with "decent" QB numbers. Brady then took off after that, they became pass happy and the Offense became the focus at the Defense's expense. Pats haven't won an SB since and have twice lost to the guy (Eli) with not-as-good numbers but better D. Arguably, an easily dropped pass and 2 separate beastly plays by Polamalu (pick, sack fumble) have been pretty much what has kept the Ravens from 3 SBs in the same amount of time.

Re: The "Flacco Thread" (Merged from 5 threads)

Originally Posted by kojo

Want to see something even crazier, look at Tom Brady's stats his first 5 years in the league and compare them to Flacco's. they are VERY close. It's no coincidence that those were the seasons the patriots actually WON a Super Bowl and it was when they had a dominating defense/run game to go along with "decent" QB numbers. Brady then took off after that, they became pass happy and the Offense became the focus at the Defense's expense. Pats haven't won an SB since and have twice lost to the guy (Eli) with not-as-good numbers but better D. Arguably, an easily dropped pass and 2 separate beastly plays by Polamalu (pick, sack fumble) have been pretty much what has kept the Ravens from 3 SBs in the same amount of time.

Those numbers are not actually that close when you adjust for the league-wide explosion in passing. It is better to compare rankings among peers, and Brady was a top 10 QB in about every category for all those years. He led the league in TDs with 28 in 2002, for example.

But I can't argue with the QB-alone-doesn't-win-SB argument. That is true.

Re: The "Flacco Thread" (Merged from 5 threads)

Originally Posted by Haloti92

Those numbers are not actually that close when you adjust for the league-wide explosion in passing. It is better to compare rankings among peers, and Brady was a top 10 QB in about every category for all those years. He led the league in TDs with 28 in 2002, for example.

But I can't argue with the QB-alone-doesn't-win-SB argument. That is true.

Yea but what offense in today's NFL throws as many 9 routes as the Ravens do. I will never compare Joe to his peers b/c his peers arent in a 1970/80s offensive system. Maybe Rivers is the only other peer, and how is he doing?

Re: The "Flacco Thread" (Merged from 5 threads)

Originally Posted by bmorecareful

Yeah, I'm just kidding. Eli's fine.

But, interestingly enough, he was definitely NOT fine his first 5 years in the league. He only broke an 80 QBR once, despite a ton of offensive talent around him, and cost his team a ton of games each year.

The Flacco comparisons have already been made quite a bit, so I won't make them again, it's just a reminder to not give up on a guy.

Despite MAJOR off-season drama surrounding the team...and I mean MAAAAJOR drama, Eli won his first SB in 2008 (the 2007 season). Interestingly enough, part of that drama was a new OC: Kevin Gilbride...promoted from his QB coach position.

Oh, and when Gilbride wasn't winning SBs, he happened to produce dual 1,000 yard rushers in the same season (2008) ...looking at you Ray and Bernard.

I'm not lobbying for Gilbride here. Nor am I lobbying for Caldwell.
I'm pointing out what change can do for ya, and folks should NOT give up on Joe until after Cammie is removed from the equation.

Re: The "Flacco Thread" (Merged from 5 threads)

Originally Posted by BigPlayReceiver

Despite MAJOR off-season drama surrounding the team...and I mean MAAAAJOR drama, Eli won his first SB in 2008 (the 2007 season). Interestingly enough, part of that drama was a new OC: Kevin Gilbride...promoted from his QB coach position.

Oh, and when Gilbride wasn't winning SBs, he happened to produce dual 1,000 yard rushers in the same season (2008) ...looking at you Ray and Bernard.

I'm not lobbying for Gilbride here. Nor am I lobbying for Caldwell.
I'm pointing out what change can do for ya, and folks should NOT give up on Joe until after Cammie is removed from the equation.

Re: The "Flacco Thread" (Merged from 5 threads)

I don't think he's more composed. I think the offensive scheme and the playcalling help him get into the rhythm of the game and get comfortable more than ours does for Flacco.

I kept hearing the MNF commentators marvel at how wide open the Redskins' receivers were. The Giants made a lot of catches with quite a bit of turf around them, too. We don't hear that when the Ravens are on offense.

Batch was hit 6 times to Flacco's eleven. He had six or seven plays with a receiver running wide open in the middle of the field. I can't think of a single play except for the PI against Boldin where a Ravens receiver didn't have a defender right on him. It's not just ability: it's the scheme not putting the players in a position to succeed.

We also, inexplicably, abandoned the run late in the third and the fourth quarter. I know: we only like 7 plays in the 4th. Part of that is on the defense for not stopping Pittsburgh. Part of that is on Cameron/Flacco/ the offense for not getting first downs. IIRC, we ran it one time on those seven plays, for a loss. Rice ran it 12 times for 78 yards. He didn't have any 30+ runs: he was getting good, positive yardage on most of those runs. Pierce ran the ball effectively. Yet, nonetheless, we had Flacco dropping back, no play-action, and trying to hit covered receivers while his o-line crumbled around him.

He does need to run more. I suspect, though I don't know, that Harbaugh and the coaching staff discourage this. He certainly doesn't seem to look for opportunities to run like he did his rookie season. I think he also has a lot of confidence in his ability to get the ball downfield, so his preference is to hold the ball and give the receivers a chance to get position (forget getting open).

His deep ball doesn't have the touch you'd like to see. He consistently seems to throw the ball short when Smith or Jones get behind a defender, whether that's in the middle of the field or down the sideline. It's as if he doesn't have an understanding of their speed and underestimates where to put the ball. I know it's not a lack of arm strength: I've seen him overthrow those same routes by a good margin.

Boldin's drops have become a very troubling development, and I'm probably his biggest fan on this board (if not in Raven country). I was ecstatic when Newsome brought him here, and my standing advice to Flacco is "throw it to Boldin." Well, he's been doing that and Boldin hasn't been producing. He's gotten beat by single coverage defenders more than he used to. Yes, Allen and (I forget who) both made good plays on the ball around Boldin, but that's been his specialty his whole career: out-muscling defenders for the football.

It didn't help the refs had a quick whistle on the "in the grasp" play, and also an inconsistent one. Batch was "in the grasp" on the incomplete Harbaugh challenged (inexplicably, imo, or at least bad advice) for at least as long. That didn't cost us the game: if you leave it on the refs, you didn't deserve to win. But it does make it frustrating and therefore harder for a QB or any player to produce when you make a play- which Flacco did- and a bad call takes it away from you.

It's said all the time here: we need more slants and quick routes. If the DB's are playing back, we should hit WR bubble screens and quick hitches more than we do instead of constantly trying to outplay the defense down the field. During Flacco's first two seasons, and perhaps the first three, the mantra was to "take what the defense gives you." Unfortunately, we didn't have a receiving corps that presented many threats for the defense to try and take away. Now, Cameron's mantra seems to be to force the defense to make a play, and that gives small windows for Flacco to throw into and forces our receivers to make great plays over and over as well.

In sum, Flacco isn't playing great, but he's not being set up for success by how he's being used and the play around him, either.

Re: The "Flacco Thread" (Merged from 5 threads)

Originally Posted by Haloti92

Those numbers are not actually that close when you adjust for the league-wide explosion in passing. It is better to compare rankings among peers, and Brady was a top 10 QB in about every category for all those years. He led the league in TDs with 28 in 2002, for example.

But I can't argue with the QB-alone-doesn't-win-SB argument. That is true.

I think you're correct to point out that peer comparisons are more useful than raw numbers, but I do wonder about the anecdotal impression that passing has "exploded league wide" in recent years--is that born out by the evidence? It may be, but in what ways?

Virtually all the "volume" statistics are trending upwards, but not by huge margins, some within the range of statistical insignificance. In terms of "efficiency" statistics, yards per attempt and TD% are actually trending downwards from their peaks in the 1960's, stagnant since the 1980's. I don't have the time to do proper analysis at this point, but I'd be interested to hear someone's more carefully crafted effort.

Here's a VERY half-assed argument: passer rating appears to be trending upward. PR heavily weights completion percentage, which is also increasing while yards per completion decreases. Passing offense is not truly exploding in the NFL, but with the re-emphasis of the 5-yard chuck rule in the early 2000's, passing offenses have become significantly more efficient in the short and intermediate passing game, while deemphasizing the deep passing game that produced higher TD%, INT%, YPA, with lower COMPL% and PR.

I guess you can anticipate my next argument: that our antiquated deep-ball system doesn't mesh with the overall gains in efficiency being made by the rest of the NFL.

Re: The "Flacco Thread" (Merged from 5 threads)

I don't think he's more composed. I think the offensive scheme and the playcalling help him get into the rhythm of the game and get comfortable more than ours does for Flacco.

I kept hearing the MNF commentators marvel at how wide open the Redskins' receivers were. The Giants made a lot of catches with quite a bit of turf around them, too. We don't hear that when the Ravens are on offense.

Batch was hit 6 times to Flacco's eleven. He had six or seven plays with a receiver running wide open in the middle of the field. I can't think of a single play except for the PI against Boldin where a Ravens receiver didn't have a defender right on him. It's not just ability: it's the scheme not putting the players in a position to succeed.

We also, inexplicably, abandoned the run late in the third and the fourth quarter. I know: we only like 7 plays in the 4th. Part of that is on the defense for not stopping Pittsburgh. Part of that is on Cameron/Flacco/ the offense for not getting first downs. IIRC, we ran it one time on those seven plays, for a loss. Rice ran it 12 times for 78 yards. He didn't have any 30+ runs: he was getting good, positive yardage on most of those runs. Pierce ran the ball effectively. Yet, nonetheless, we had Flacco dropping back, no play-action, and trying to hit covered receivers while his o-line crumbled around him.

He does need to run more. I suspect, though I don't know, that Harbaugh and the coaching staff discourage this. He certainly doesn't seem to look for opportunities to run like he did his rookie season. I think he also has a lot of confidence in his ability to get the ball downfield, so his preference is to hold the ball and give the receivers a chance to get position (forget getting open).

His deep ball doesn't have the touch you'd like to see. He consistently seems to throw the ball short when Smith or Jones get behind a defender, whether that's in the middle of the field or down the sideline. It's as if he doesn't have an understanding of their speed and underestimates where to put the ball. I know it's not a lack of arm strength: I've seen him overthrow those same routes by a good margin.

Boldin's drops have become a very troubling development, and I'm probably his biggest fan on this board (if not in Raven country). I was ecstatic when Newsome brought him here, and my standing advice to Flacco is "throw it to Boldin." Well, he's been doing that and Boldin hasn't been producing. He's gotten beat by single coverage defenders more than he used to. Yes, Allen and (I forget who) both made good plays on the ball around Boldin, but that's been his specialty his whole career: out-muscling defenders for the football.

It didn't help the refs had a quick whistle on the "in the grasp" play, and also an inconsistent one. Batch was "in the grasp" on the incomplete Harbaugh challenged (inexplicably, imo, or at least bad advice) for at least as long. That didn't cost us the game: if you leave it on the refs, you didn't deserve to win. But it does make it frustrating and therefore harder for a QB or any player to produce when you make a play- which Flacco did- and a bad call takes it away from you.

It's said all the time here: we need more slants and quick routes. If the DB's are playing back, we should hit WR bubble screens and quick hitches more than we do instead of constantly trying to outplay the defense down the field. During Flacco's first two seasons, and perhaps the first three, the mantra was to "take what the defense gives you." Unfortunately, we didn't have a receiving corps that presented many threats for the defense to try and take away. Now, Cameron's mantra seems to be to force the defense to make a play, and that gives small windows for Flacco to throw into and forces our receivers to make great plays over and over as well.

In sum, Flacco isn't playing great, but he's not being set up for success by how he's being used and the play around him, either.

Re: The "Flacco Thread" (Merged from 5 threads)

In sum, Flacco isn't playing great, but he's not being set up for success by how he's being used and the play around him, either.

I totally agree with that statement. I believe Joe still has some upside, but he is being held back by the type of offense we run. On a scale of 1-10, Joe has the potential to be an 8. Right now, he is playing like a 5 or 6. He won't ever be a 9 or 10, because he has limited ability to run or extend plays. He is not very instintive and has poor pocket presence. If however, we can ever get a great offensive line and an OC that will call more short and intermediate route plays across the middle, then you will see a much improved Joe Flacco.