I really think there should be at least one Go album in this list, probably the Live in Paris. With the personnel involved (Winwood, DiMeola, Shultz, Shrieve, Yamashta), it is truly a supergroup of this genre and this is a great record. The two studio albums that preceeded it (Go and Go Too) are also very good. Myself, I would give the live one at least 4 stars and the two studio albums 4 or 3.5 as well. Thoughts? I have never tried to add a release to any of these lists, so excuse me if I am going about it the wrong way.

If you like art of musicians, check my site (the music section) and tell me what you think! http://www.kenmeyerjr.com

I'm new here so I'm not sure if this is the right place to post a reply, but here goes...

I'm responding to the top 100 proto-prog list. Out of 100 albums, I counted 33 for Deep Purple. Are you on drugs or just clueless on the subject of proto-prog?

33 albums constitutes 1/3 of the entire list, and over half of those are compilations, live recordings 20 to 30 after their prime period (1968-74), and greatest hits. You gotta be kidding me!

All 100 entries were covered by a total of... get this... 13 bands. If I'm not mistaken, I'm pretty sure there were more than 13 proto-prog bands from the late 60s to early 70s, which is the time period in which the term "proto-prog" (proto meaning 'before') would be applicable. Anything after 1973 is not proto-prog, because by 1973 the progressive rock movement had matured well beyond its early infancy stage. Would you call Lark's Tongues in Aspic or Passion Play proto-prog? I wouldn't.

There were a few entries that should be there: Vanilla Fudge, Procol Harem, Arthur Brown. But Pan & Regaliz? The Collectors? It's a Beautiful Day is a good inclusion, but Iron Butterfly was west coast psychedelic rock, not proto-prog.

Here's a few suggestions:

Indian Summer - s/t 1971 Neon (same label as Black Sabbath's debut)

Still Life - s/t 1(Vertigo 1971)

Catapilla - s/t (Vertigo 1971)

Catapilla - Changes (Vertigo 1972)

Spring - s/t (Neon 1971... early Mellotron masterpiece!)

Czar - s/t 1971

Cressida - s/t (Vertigo 1970)

Cressida - Asylum (Vertigo 1971)

Atomic Rooster - s/t 1970

Atomic Rooster - Death Walks Behind You 1970

Affinity - s/t 1970 Vertigo (Vertigo had a TON of great proto-prog acts on its label)

Tonton Macoute - s/t (Neon 1971)

Web - I Spider (Polydor 1970)

Samurai - s/t (Greenwich 1971)

Van der Graaf Generator - The Least We Can Do is Wave to Each Other (Famous Charisma 1969)

Van der Graaf Generator - H to He Who Am the Only One (Famous Charisma 1970)

Van der Graaf Generator - Pawn Hearts (Famous Charisma 1971)

T2 - It'll All Work Out in Boomland (Decca 1970)

Renaissance - s/t (Island 1969)

Renaissance - Illusion (Island 1971)

Rare Bird - s/t (Charisma 1969)

Rare Bird - As Your Mind Flies By (Charisma 1970)

Raw Material - Time Is... (Neon 1971)

Ramases - Space Hymns (Vertigo 1971)

Quatermass - s/t (Harvest 1970)

Nektar - Journey to the Centre of the Eye (Bacillus 1971)

Morgan - Nova Solis (RCA 1971)

McDonald & Giles - s/t (Atlantic 1970)

Marsupilami - s/t (Transatlantic 1970)

Marsupilami - Arena (Transatlantic 1971)

Where's all the King Crimson? They belong in the art rock category, but surely their early albums helped define a new genre. In the Court of the Crimson King practically created the term progressive before anyone knew what that was, clearly a "proto" band that became the blueprint for countless imitators that followed.

Jonesy - No Alternative (Dawn 1972)

Jade Warrior - s/t (Vertigo 1971)

Jade Warrior - Released (Vertigo 1971)

High Tide - Sea Shanties (Liberty 1969)

High Tide - s/t (Liberty 1970)

Bo Hansson - Sagan Om Ringen (Silence 1970)

Gracious - Gracious! (Vertigo 1970)

Gracious - This is...Gracious!! (Philips 1972)

Gnidrolog - Lady Lake (RCA 1972)

Gentle Giant - s/t (Vertigo 1970)

Gentle Giant - Acquiring the Taste (Vertigo 1971)

Fields - s/t (CBS 1971)

Fantasty - Paint a Picture (Polydor 1973... it's in the same sound/style)

Ekseption - s/t (Philips 1969)

Ekseption - Beggar Julia's Time Trip (Philips 1970)

East of Eden - Mercator Projected (Deram 1969)

Colosseum - Valentyne Suite (Vertigo 1969)

Colosseum - Daughter of Time (Dunhill 1970 in the US Sequel in UK)

Circus - s/t (Transatlantic 1969)

Brainchild - Healing of the Lunatic Owl (A&M 1970)

Beggars Opera - Act One (Vertigo 1970)

Beggars Opera - Waters of Change (Vertigo 1971)

Beggars Opera - Pathfinder (Vertigo 1972)

Trees - On the Shore (1970)

Soft Machine - Third (1970)

Okay, I guess you get the idea... There were a TON of great proto-prog bands, and I'm only scratching the surface here.

I have to admit the symphonic and art rock top 100 lists are pretty comprehensive, and I even found a few titles I'd not heard of before. Cudos to the contributors of those lists!

Whoever did the proto-prog list needs to take proto-prog 101. Classes now forming...

prog on!

I love poetry, long walks on the beach, and poking dead things with a stick.

And interestingly enough, 37 of the 39 bands mentioned are already listed here with over 1,800 reviews posted (as Joolz says, under their proper genres), and the two that aren't (The Web and Brainchild) are somewhat represented by Samurai and Greenslade, and both have been mentioned in the forums.

A pretty good quality-control check for the Archives. A big hand for our genre groups and all the collabs who review admissions!

Proglamaniac - welcome to the Archives. Pull up a chair and take some time to look around, particularly at the album/review archives.

Thanks for the welcome. I've been a non-lurking member of your sister/brother site progressive ears for a few years now, and I've been using progarchives as a reliable resource for prog about the same. I've learned of many bands and albums from this site that I might not have had progarchives not been here. I've been a diehard progger since the early 70s when, still in my teens, I was exposed to Genesis, King Crimson, ELP, Yes, and all the great bands that were popular at the time. And that was notable, because one could hear a track from Yes Fragile on FM one moment, followed by a Black Sabbath or Blue Oyster Cult track and then maybe Foghat or Elton John. Those days have changed, of course. Dramatically, and not for the better. Thank God for the internet, the bridge that connected all of us!

I think I understand that many, if not most, of the bands/albums I listed are already reviewed. It's possible I misunderstood the purpose of a top 100 proto-prog list. Let's see how close I am...

The purpose of a top 100 genre list, in this case proto-prog, is to list the best 100 albums that genre had to offer. That seemed pretty clear to me, but by all means correct me if I'm wrong. If that's the case, and I believe it is, how does 33 of the 100 albums end up coming from one band? Deep Purple, whom I am a BIG fan (MK II mainly) put out some 4 studio albums and 1 great live album from 1970 to 1974 when Gillan and Glover both left the band before Burn. That makes 5 albums.

Proto-prog is a sub-genre of progressive rock that generally refers to bands in the late 60s and early 70s that played a more sophisticated rock music but was not necessarily "progressive". Look anywhere on the 'net and you'll read names like Cressida, Spring, Gracious, Colosseum, Manfred Mann, Gnidrolog, Indian Summer, Still Life, and so many of their kind it's fairly obvious to anyone who takes the time to read up on this early movement (which is generally considered to have had its beginning in Great Britain).

Not one of those bands or their albums are mentioned in the top 100 proto-prog list, yet Deep Purple has 33, only a handful of which were actually recorded before 1972! They had 3 or 4 albums before 1970 and another 3 or 4 after, which in my count comes to 8 at the most, not 33. How many reviews do you suggest I read before that improbable figure begins to make sense? Or is it because the other 28 Deep Purple albums that make up the bulk of that list aren't reviewed that qualifies them for inclusion? If that's a primary criteria, then wouldn't the Carpenters or Blood, Sweat & Tears be on that list, since they have not been reviewed?

Admittedly, I'm not the most tactful person on the planet and for that I'm truly sorry. I don't wake up each morning thinking of ways to piss people off. The only reason I joined this forum was from shock. You guys can run your site any way you like, but if want input from folks who might know a thing or two about the whole genre of progressive rock music, I'm available and I'd love to share what I know. After consuming prog ravenously for over 35 years, I might just know a thing or two.

Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers.

Maybe you can explain to me why Deep Purple has 33 albums in this list and classic proto-prog bands like Cressida, Gracious or Spring have 0. Please explain to me how a live album by DP recorded in 2001 qualifies as proto, when a classic album by Still Life recorded in 1971 on the Vertigo label does not. Hey, I'm not trying to crap in your corn flakes here. I guess I could have tempered my comments a bit so I didn't sound like I thought the people who created the list were idiots. I'm sure there's a good reason. I just didn't see one at the time. But I'm all ears.

Enlighten me. This might be fun. Or maybe you'll tell me that David Bowie's latest album is proto-prog, and I'll just go find another forum to join. It's no sweat off my balls.

Oh, I almost forgot. Web is actually Samurai, they just changed their name. While they may be the same band with a new name, Brainchild has nothing to do with Greenslade. Lennie Wright of Web and Samurai did produce Brainchild's album, which explains why they share a similar sound/style, not to mention the album cover design too. But Dave Lawson left Samurai to form his own band: Greenslade. So, saying that covering Greenslade amounts to covering Samurai or that covering Samurai is the equivalent to covering Brainchild is like saying Allan Holdsworth is Canterbury because he played on a couple albums with Bill Bruford, who happened to play with National Health and Gong for a short time. Rich Wakeman was a guest keyboardist on a couple Black Sabbath albums, so does that make him a metal keyboardist?

In the words of our beloved Mike Meyers who played the host of "Cawfee Tawk" on SNL, "Talk amongst yourselves..."

prog on!

Edited by proglamaniac - July 06 2006 at 21:34

I love poetry, long walks on the beach, and poking dead things with a stick.

I don't really know anything about Samurai, Greenslade, The Web, or Brainchild, so you have me there. I am at the mercy of the various reviews and band bios here for Samurai and Greenslade, and a few forum posts, both sources which link the four bands (hence my obviously misguided assumption).

Anyway, your description of the various 'Top-100' listings is pretty much correct. However, as Joolz said, a lot of the bands you have called out are actually listed here under other genres (Art Rock, Symphonic, Prog-related, Jazz/Fusion, Canterbury, etc.), so they may show up under one of those genre's Top-100 lists.

The algorithm used to determine placement in the various Top-100 lists is based on the weighted ratings of the people who have reviewed the respective albums (you can find the formula listed at the top of each list). There are not nearly as many albums (or reviews) of Proto-Prog as there are of some other genres, so you will find that nearly all the albums in this category have made their way onto that list. If you look at Art Rock, Symphonic, or Metal, for example, you'll see that the bar is quite a bit higher for making it on to the list.

I think, to be fair, the Proto Prog definition on PA is slightly misleading -

Proto-Prog definition

Rock Bands in existence prior to 1969 that influenced the development
of progressive rock. The late 60's was a predominately experimental
period for music. These bands were moving in a stream that eventually
led to prog. The influence could have come from new sophisticated forms
of writing and playing music, recording techniques, new instruments and
vocal harmonies to name a few. Some of these bands became progressive
rock bands themselves others did not.

This implies that bands in existence before 1969 will be defined in Proto Prog, but of course, the way it is implemented on PA is that those which continued into a full Prog career are assigned to a full Prog sub-genre, eg King Crimson, VDGG etc, which only leaves those which did not do so, eg Beatles.

Notice, also, the year 1969 - ALL of the albums you list in your first post are from 1969 or later and would therefore be deemed to be AFTER the Proto Prog period.

You cannot post new topics in this forumYou cannot reply to topics in this forumYou cannot delete your posts in this forumYou cannot edit your posts in this forumYou cannot create polls in this forumYou cannot vote in polls in this forum