I may be one of the few here, but I like the idea of making crafting more intertwined with other professions. Does it suck individually? Sure it does! But having this has two benefits (albeit, they may not be noticable yet):
1) You'll need to get more mats from other people, this can widen your friends list. I know some people like to play single player, but this is still an MMO.
2) The mats become more rare and the recipes become more sought after, and most importantly it feels that much better when you obtain it! In the last couple expansions everyone had everything and it didn't feel good to get the gear crafted.

I watched the debates on Wednesday and I kept wondering are people so dumb that they believe Romney really has a magic plan that's never been tried before and is basically impossible? Then I read threads like this and the answer is made clear. Let me try again.

I watched the debates on Wednesday and I kept wondering are people so dumb that they believe Romney really has a magic plan that's never been tried before and is basically impossible? Then I read threads like this and the answer is made clear. Let me try again.

6 Stacks Of Ore > 60 Bars > 6 Trillium Bars > 1 Living Steel

6 Stacks Of Ore > AH > 1200G - 1500G > 1 Living Steel

For the love of Dog, it's the same thing.

Regardless of how you obtain it the process of actually making it remains the same.

Mining > Alchemy > Which is then used by another crafting profession.

As opposed to:

Mining > JC > Which is then used by the JC

or

Herbalism > Alchemy

-Edit-

If you want interdependency between crafting professions, that's fine. However it has to be all or nothing. Currently multiple crafting professions are reliant on one crafting profession (A crafting profession that isn't reliant on any other professions for its end products)

N.B. Living steel is not an end product but a material, which are normally reliant on a gathering profession.

Regardless of how you obtain it the process of actually making it remains the same.

Mining > Alchemy > Which is then used by another crafting profession.

As opposed to:

Mining > JC > Which is then used by the JC

or

Herbalism > Alchemy

-Edit-

If you want interdependency between crafting professions, that's fine. However it has to be all or nothing. Currently multiple crafting professions are reliant on one crafting profession (A crafting profession that isn't reliant on any other professions for its end products)

N.B. Living steel is not an end product but a material, which are normally reliant on a gathering profession.

You completely missed his point. Read up on opportunity cost. It's a really basic economic principle that everyone should understand.

The REAL poblem...
I do however think it's daft how much quicker and more economical it is transmuting to make Trillium than it is to mine it. Nodes are FAR too rare, it takes 4 ore for each trillium, AND because of the black / white thing, if RNG isn't on your side you can be sat on a stack of one colour and none of the other.

OR i just send a stack of Ghost Iron (which is massively overabundant) to my alchemist and I can make a pair of them.
Alchemy is a LOT better way of getting trillium than mining is. I think I could make a stack with alchemy in the time it takes me to get 3,4 bars worth through mining.

I hate living steel. As a blacksmith/miner I hate that the ultimate metal in the game cannot be made or collected by me in any way and i have to depend entirely on another profession to get it. It's not like it's just a high level addition to high level patterns like arcanite or truegold was, no IT'S THE BASE METAL FOR ALL HIGH LEVEL PATTERNS, you need it to even make a freaking belt buckle. WTF?? I was expecting like a titanium or maybe even a hardened version of ghost iron but noooo, it's a metal we have no access to at all except from a completely unrelated profession. Oh and the best part is it's massively expensive and since it's the base metal, you'll be needing a ton of it. Good luck if you intend to make several pieces of armor, you better be rich or have friends who aren't cheep. Thanks for screwing over my profession blizz.

Alchemy is by far the easiest profession to level. You can power level that shit for cheap in an hour.

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Don't forget engineers... six bars for the epic helm, and 12 for the mounts. I'm out over 20k gold just to craft the epic helm, which may easily be replaced over the course of future raiding, all of which goes to alchemists.

Originally Posted by parkerlynne

You'd think none of you played in cata...

Oh I recall it quite well. The engineering helms required more mats, true- six obsidium bolts and six electrified ether, crafted by the engineer and obtainable with mining, three hardened elementium bars, smelted by miners, two color-relevant gems, easily purchased off the AH (without blowing anyone's day-long CD,) a chaos orb, obtainable in a heroic dungeon by the engineer and ONE, yes, ONE bar of truegold. And I thought that one truegold bar was a stupid requirement back then.

I'd rather expend my own trillium, kyparite, ghost iron bolts, and two relevant gems than fork over non unsubstantial amounts of gold to alchemists just so I can craft a go-between helm. I don't think many alchemists would be content if crafting their trinkets required a few mechanical pandaren dragonling pets as reagents.

"Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen

I don't think many alchemists would be content if crafting their trinkets required a few mechanical pandaren dragonling pets as reagents.

I love that that sounds utterly ridiculous.. but is the exact same thing that's actually happening. We're keeping alchemists in business just by trying to make our endgame gadgets. (thank god I have an alchemist alt)

Um, I have BS/JC on my main, I am, therefore, dependent on miners and alchemists for my mats.

Someone with Leatherworking is dependent on someone with skinning. Every profession is dependent on another profession. You cannot make everything for 1 profession with 1 gathering profession or 1 other crafting profession. This is intended so that no one profession will be THE gold maker, and no one profession combination will be. To maximize my gold income I have

Alchemy x 2
BS
JC
Enchanting
Mining--for the smelting primarily

That's before I bother with inscription (i hate inscription with a passion)

I refuse to spend time mining, because i can make more gold on the AH than I could mining my own mats. Therefore I am dependent upon miners for literally everything that I do...Nerf this blizz, I wants free mats in my mail

That's essentially what you're saying, you don't want to be dependent on any other profession, the only way to do that is to have blizzard mail you mats.

Um, I have BS/JC on my main, I am, therefore, dependent on miners and alchemists for my mats.

Someone with Leatherworking is dependent on someone with skinning. Every profession is dependent on another profession. You cannot make everything for 1 profession with 1 gathering profession or 1 other crafting profession. This is intended so that no one profession will be THE gold maker, and no one profession combination will be. To maximize my gold income I have

Alchemy x 2
BS
JC
Enchanting
Mining--for the smelting primarily

That's before I bother with inscription (i hate inscription with a passion)

I refuse to spend time mining, because i can make more gold on the AH than I could mining my own mats. Therefore I am dependent upon miners for literally everything that I do...Nerf this blizz, I wants free mats in my mail

That's essentially what you're saying, you don't want to be dependent on any other profession, the only way to do that is to have blizzard mail you mats.

Actually, no, that isn't what we are saying. MOST people will normally take a crafting profession in conjunction with the gathering profession that feeds the crafting one. It's your choice to take 2 crafting professions. But what you say is NOTHING like what we are talking about. A crafting profession (blacksmithing as an example) depends on a gathering profession (mining) to feed it the majority of it's materials, and should NOT need another crafting profession (alchemy) to get it's items. Something equal to this would be Alchemists needing Scribes for a large number of a 1day cd item to make their flask cauldrons or other such max skill item. Or Leatherworking requiring some thread made only by a Tailor with a 1-day cd.

So far, there are only (to my knowledge, which is admittedly very limited for the Zen Master bracket) Blacksmithing + Jewelcrafting + Engineering that requires another crafting profession (Alchemy), and Enchanters requiring an item from Blacksmiths (enchanting rods, though I heard they took out the different tiers of rods). But the enchanter doesn't really count as their item is only crafted once and that's it.

Honestly I don't see the problem with any of this, I have 2 alch alts for this reason as it has been a similar situation for the last 2 expansions. Though I agree, miners could use with a 1 day CD to make 6 trillium bars into 1 Living Steel.

Also as an aside, why the hell is mining still on stam for the bonus? why not mastery? Its good for every class and wouldn't hurt tanks any if anything help some tanks.

Originally Posted by zinnin

Lets say your playing a FPS, you have all your buttons key-bound by default. Now lets say your really stubborn and decide that you want to make it so you have to be able to use your mouse. You now use keys to aim, and use your mouse to select weapons and shoot. Obviously no one does that..for a reason.

Honestly I don't see the problem with any of this, I have 2 alch alts for this reason as it has been a similar situation for the last 2 expansions. Though I agree, miners could use with a 1 day CD to make 6 trillium bars into 1 Living Steel.

Also as an aside, why the hell is mining still on stam for the bonus? why not mastery? Its good for every class and wouldn't hurt tanks any if anything help some tanks.

I would guess about the stamina bonus from mining not being mastery, is then I am sure the classes that benefit the greatest will probably "be forced" to take mining for the bonus or else be called "bads" for choosing something else. That would be my guess.

I would guess about the stamina bonus from mining not being mastery, is then I am sure the classes that benefit the greatest will probably "be forced" to take mining for the bonus or else be called "bads" for choosing something else. That would be my guess.

Make mining give less mastery than the equiv you could get from JC or BS etc, make it slightly worse like the haste from herb. That would be my solution. Stam just seems like a worthless stat at this point, thats just imo.

Originally Posted by zinnin

Lets say your playing a FPS, you have all your buttons key-bound by default. Now lets say your really stubborn and decide that you want to make it so you have to be able to use your mouse. You now use keys to aim, and use your mouse to select weapons and shoot. Obviously no one does that..for a reason.

Make mining give less mastery than the equiv you could get from JC or BS etc, make it slightly worse like the haste from herb. That would be my solution. Stam just seems like a worthless stat at this point, thats just imo.

Well, if you give mining an ability on a 2 min(?) cd like lifeblood from herbalism, then it could possibly be better (giving it mastery instead of stam).

JC has a similar matter, where I can't get Primals unless I transmute with an Alch guildmate, since I have no Alchemist myself. At least, I know of no other way, unless the Spirit of Harmony vendor offers them. Leatherworkers don't have this issue (I'm A JC/LW Hunter), as we can turn Sha-Touched Leather into Exotic Leather into Magnificent Hides, which is nice. However, we're not the best providers of items for people (only leg armors at the moment, along with entry-level PvP gear, while JCs offer loads of needed gems, alchemists make flasks and potions, and so on), and we don't get cool things like mounts or personal gear to make ourselves (just an unseen AWESOME Agility buff that I love, but it'd be nice if it was a visible thing like an Engineering piece of gear, such as the Cata helms).

Living Steel sucks for not being made by the metalworkers, I agree. You should be able to smelt it, but Alchemists should have the leg-up with the ability to proc multiples, so both professions get a usable feature, maybe? There has to be a middle ground because if the Miners and Blacksmiths got the Living Steel and the Jewelcrafters got the PRimal Diamonds, what would be the use for Alchemists beyond flasks and potions, which don't necessarily make great money?

Actually, no, that isn't what we are saying. MOST people will normally take a crafting profession in conjunction with the gathering profession that feeds the crafting one. It's your choice to take 2 crafting professions. But what you say is NOTHING like what we are talking about. A crafting profession (blacksmithing as an example) depends on a gathering profession (mining) to feed it the majority of it's materials, and should NOT need another crafting profession (alchemy) to get it's items. Something equal to this would be Alchemists needing Scribes for a large number of a 1day cd item to make their flask cauldrons or other such max skill item. Or Leatherworking requiring some thread made only by a Tailor with a 1-day cd.

So far, there are only (to my knowledge, which is admittedly very limited for the Zen Master bracket) Blacksmithing + Jewelcrafting + Engineering that requires another crafting profession (Alchemy), and Enchanters requiring an item from Blacksmiths (enchanting rods, though I heard they took out the different tiers of rods). But the enchanter doesn't really count as their item is only crafted once and that's it.

Alchemy requires JC for gem transmutes and JC in turn requires Alch for meta gems. Leatherworking requires some mats from other professions, at the very least to level, if not at end game (don't have one)
Enchanter's require materials to disenchant, the majority of which come from crafted items.

This is a dynamic economy. You can get buy without having more than 2 professions but if you want to maximize you'll need to pay others to do something for you or have more than 2 professions.

Edit:

I mean, they made these changes on purpose at the end of Wrath. JC was WAY too good at making cash in relation to the other professions, since it only needed mining. The only people who benefited at all from JC were JCs and Miners, and if you mined your own it was just you. Now, in order to maximize gold as a JC you have to purchase items from other people or have alts to transmute for you.

Inscription was in a similar place, but they nerfed it with reusable gems, only to have it not be profitable enough during Cata. The shoulder enchants are a step in the right direction there.

Last edited by Thirtyrock; 2012-10-07 at 08:27 PM.
Reason: elaboration