Simon: selenium grid: driver + client may be running on different machines

09:02:50 [jhammel]

simonstewart: vs in process; maybe console.log has all we care about

09:03:01 [jhammel]

Larry Masinter: You have logging but no assertions

09:03:30 [jhammel]

Simon: Yes; we want to get logs back in a consistent format; the logging API we have lets you get consistent records

09:03:44 [jhammel]

Larry Masinter: The logs would include assertion failures

09:03:55 [jhammel]

Simon: No; it is only internal logging

09:04:12 [jhammel]

Larry Masinter: What do you need to do with the logs that require standardization

09:04:20 [jhammel]

e.g. the console of the browser

09:04:33 [jhammel]

Larry Masinter: If different browsers log differently, does that matter?

09:04:48 [jhammel]

Simon: There isn't a standard for the content of the logs

09:05:52 [jhammel]

Simon Stewart: you're probably on a heterogenous network of machines; if a test fails, the user doesn't have any insight into what is going on

09:06:33 [jhammel]

Simon Stewart: developers want to take a look at the logs at all intermediate stages; this is what happend locally, on a webdriver server, on the test machine, etc

09:06:49 [jhammel]

Simon: we need that format in order to be able to get the logs

09:07:20 [jhammel]

Simon: we haven't put assertions in, but we've given you the ability to put assertions in

09:07:32 [jhammel]

Simon: its not active logging; its fairly passive

09:08:55 [jhammel]

Larry Masinter: roadmap: how do you ensure adequate consistency? are we writing our specs too precisely?

09:09:58 [jhammel]

Simon Stewart: i've seen a number of projects that have survived major reworking of the UIs without failing; the key is how you find the elements

09:10:45 [jhammel]

Larry Masinter: there may be operations that can only be done with multitouch, etc

09:11:09 [jhammel]

Simon Stewart: you can query your webdriver instance for the capabilities it supports

09:11:24 [jhammel]

Simon Stewart: e.g. do i support touch actions?

09:11:53 [jhammel]

Larry Masinter: would you use media queries to determine what tests are run?

09:12:16 [jhammel]

Simon Stewart: no; in the OSS project, you only run tests if the assumption is true

09:13:23 [jhammel]

Simon Stewart: we've divorced ourselves from a testing framework, but we've given you the capabilities to create a testing framework; we allow you to query the capabilities without enforcing you to do anything if the capabilities aren't met

09:14:23 [jhammel]

John Jansen: How do i easily determine the diff between red+blue?

09:14:49 [jhammel]

Simon Stewart: using diff from the VCS; would you prefer a different way?

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09:15:20 [jhammel]

John: is that pushed decided by the wg?

09:15:28 [jhammel]

Simon Stewart: Yes

09:15:53 [jhammel]

Wilhelm: is there any particular reason why you care about the blue one over the red one?

09:16:01 [jhammel]

John: mostly out of habit

09:16:15 [jhammel]

Simon: because of the way we're writing the specification, blue isn't invalid

sms: We can choose to take as much complexity as possible close to us, and away from testers. This is difficult for us. Given the opportuinty, we should try to make the lives of testers as easy as possible.

13:20:22 [wilhelm]

andreastt: (Detailing complexities in keeping track of the correct order.)

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13:20:49 [wilhelm]

kkania: For Chrome, this is easy to implement.

13:21:10 [wilhelm]

kkania: Shouldn't this be a must?

13:21:46 [wilhelm]

sms: Should the should be a must, or do we drop the clause?

13:21:55 [wilhelm]

davidburns: I go for the arbitrary option (may).

13:22:17 [wilhelm]

andreastt: I don't get the logic behind that this is how testers think.

13:22:36 [wilhelm]

andreastt: I believe they expect the order they opened them.

13:22:47 [wilhelm]

sms: You prefer to take this section out?

13:22:48 [wilhelm]

andreastt: Yes.

13:22:53 [wilhelm]

kkania: I don't have a strong opinion.

13:23:00 [wilhelm]

sms: So we take out this section.

13:23:14 [wilhelm]

sms: Window-ordering is non-deterministic.

13:23:16 [shepazu]

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13:24:28 [wilhelm]

ACTION: Remove the proposed ordering section in 6.3

13:24:40 [wilhelm]

sms: A set in Java is unordered.

13:25:44 [wilhelm]

sms: I would like to take out XPath piece, but I don't think that is a good idea.

13:26:03 [wilhelm]

eranm: getText?

13:26:56 [wilhelm]

sms: Visibility and shown text has been flagged for being moved to CSS OM. We need to discuss this with them.