Jesus isn't a sacrifice to god. He's god renting himself to himself for the weekend. Cheap.

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Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.

Dear humanity, this is God. I love you so very much that I have given you free will. Now do as I command or I'll really give you something to cry about!

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Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.

(16-12-2016 03:19 PM)Bzltyr Wrote: Vicarious Redemption
Really bad people going to Heaven. Who sets the bar? If you had a graph of all sin that went from one to a million your sin and my sin and Hitler's sin would all be a million and perfection would be zero.

You need to take a refresher course in basic math. Also in theology apparently. There are a variety of levels of sins, including mortal sins, venial sins, etc. Some are worse than others. According to church doctrine some people sin more, some less. There is variation.

So, yes, one person can sin a little and another can sin much more. On a graph of all the sin ever committed, the numbers would be small, but there would be a comparative difference.

(16-12-2016 03:19 PM)Bzltyr Wrote: If you understand percentages you will realize that you and I are as bad as Hitler relative to perfection. Simplistic, I know, but I hope you get the idea.

Nauseating actually. So if one sin makes you as bad as Hitler, then what the hell? Let's go nuts. Seriously, that's a bad argument.

(16-12-2016 03:19 PM)Bzltyr Wrote: It is nice to know you believe in objective morality.

No I don't. No source of objective morality has ever been evidenced. Your god is claimed to be good, yet commits hideous acts. I'm simply pointing out the contradictions.

(16-12-2016 03:19 PM)Bzltyr Wrote: One person CAN NOT ATONE for the sins of another.

Says you. If God exists He gets to make the rules. Jesus atoned for your sins and God is not mad at you in the least.

You have a cookie.
I take your cookie and eat it.
You are upset.
I apologize to god.
God says no problem.
I am happy.
You may or may not be happy. Doesn't matter.
God said it was okay. You whine too much and guess where you end up?

Guess what?
after all that, I still ate the cookie.
God's forgiveness does not change the act. The act still happened.
Even if you forgive me, the act still happened.
I took something from you.
Forgiveness only absolves you from some of the consequences.
It cannot erase the act.
It cannot erase the ripples, the reactions that happen from the initial act.

Your god, if he existed, could not change any of that.

But, getting back to that scapegoating thing...

Let's lay this out.

God sets up the world and creates man.
He knows in advance that man will sin and reject him.
He knows in advance that most men will die and be tortured eternally in hell.
He creates them anyway.

Men sin, reject god and are doomed.
God is surprised.
God decides to create a loophole to the rules he created.
God sends himself (jesus) down to the world.
God allows men to sacrifice god (jesus) to himself (god) to fulfill the loophole that god created in the rules that god himself set up in the first place.

Jesus isn't a sacrifice to god. He's god renting himself to himself for the weekend. Cheap.

True. It's not a sacrifice if he knew in advance he was going to heaven.

A true sacrifice is when someone willingly gives up something forever so others can live a better life and they do it without pre-knowledge or the end result of their sacrifice. Soldiers, for instance, sacrifice possible life and limb. When they go into battle they go into an unknown future. They sacrifice without the pre-knowledge of whether or not they will ever see their families again or be tortured for years in an enemy prison. Jesus/god has a couple of bad days hanging around on a couple of sticks with the pre-knowledge of heaven awaiting him. Namby-pamby little wimp.