Comments on: PAX Dickwolves Controversy: Nice Guys Finishing Lasthttp://mightygirl.com/2013/09/05/pax-controversy-nice-guys-finishing-last/
Famous Among DozensSat, 28 Feb 2015 17:10:48 +0000hourly1http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1By: Katehttp://mightygirl.com/2013/09/05/pax-controversy-nice-guys-finishing-last/#comment-1267823
KateMon, 09 Sep 2013 16:24:34 +0000http://mightygirl.com/?p=24380#comment-1267823Although... in one of my favorite Fresh Interviews ever, the late, lamented MCA of the Beastie Boys shows the PA guys how this is done, if they care to take the lesson.
Terry Gross asks him what kinds of lyrics they will change up or improvise in live performances. His response "well, mostly some of the sexist stuff." He went on to observe that basically, they needed to grow up and cut that s*it out.
Protip, Penny Arcade: I knew when I was in 7th grade going to mixers and listening to License to Ill. This is... sexist. So 25 years later to hear that... it gave me hope, and it meant a lot. Especially since I mostly love the Beastie Boys.Although… in one of my favorite Fresh Interviews ever, the late, lamented MCA of the Beastie Boys shows the PA guys how this is done, if they care to take the lesson.

Terry Gross asks him what kinds of lyrics they will change up or improvise in live performances. His response “well, mostly some of the sexist stuff.” He went on to observe that basically, they needed to grow up and cut that s*it out.

Protip, Penny Arcade: I knew when I was in 7th grade going to mixers and listening to License to Ill. This is… sexist. So 25 years later to hear that… it gave me hope, and it meant a lot. Especially since I mostly love the Beastie Boys.

]]>By: Katehttp://mightygirl.com/2013/09/05/pax-controversy-nice-guys-finishing-last/#comment-1267822
KateMon, 09 Sep 2013 16:14:34 +0000http://mightygirl.com/?p=24380#comment-1267822It wasn't the bad rape joke, which, as you say can have an ambiguous read. And besides. Rape jokes. They are everywhere. Which is crummy. But they are.
It wasn't even so much the initial response, which could have put an end to all of it, even if the end had brought about by silence.
It's the way they handled the aftermath that sank this particular institution for me. The PAX cons are supposed to be places where people are nice and where people are safe.
And the defensiveness of the reaction and the failure to point out <i>to the fans who escalated and escalated and escalated</i> to produce some of the worst/classic examples of harassment of women online... no.
If you feel you can address a criticism of your comic by writing another comic, surely you can post on Twitter emphatically and frequently that rape and death threats towards critics are not ever okay. They aren't jokes, they're not an ambiguous read. They have no place in the conversation.
I stopped following before any such response happened, if it happened, and long after it could do any real repairing work. So I don't know where things are now.
But really guys? REALLY? You can't call a safe space safe if it means "safe for everyone, as long as you get to define what safety is." That's male privilege, and you're profiting directly from it.
I am glad people open doors. But I don't want to see how people (not all, but it doesn't take many) react if something they don't like happens. Which is when the small kindnesses and cooperation are most important.
In my less lovely moods, I want to tell them to cry me a river with their sensitive seeking of intimacy and vulnerability. When they've dealt with the kind of violent online abuse the women who supported the original criticism have, they can come talk to me about vulnerable.
I feel badly for the Penny Arcade Guys because I think they could have done so well with this, and I doubt they will ever recover fully.It wasn’t the bad rape joke, which, as you say can have an ambiguous read. And besides. Rape jokes. They are everywhere. Which is crummy. But they are.

It wasn’t even so much the initial response, which could have put an end to all of it, even if the end had brought about by silence.

It’s the way they handled the aftermath that sank this particular institution for me. The PAX cons are supposed to be places where people are nice and where people are safe.

And the defensiveness of the reaction and the failure to point out to the fans who escalated and escalated and escalated to produce some of the worst/classic examples of harassment of women online… no.

If you feel you can address a criticism of your comic by writing another comic, surely you can post on Twitter emphatically and frequently that rape and death threats towards critics are not ever okay. They aren’t jokes, they’re not an ambiguous read. They have no place in the conversation.

I stopped following before any such response happened, if it happened, and long after it could do any real repairing work. So I don’t know where things are now.

But really guys? REALLY? You can’t call a safe space safe if it means “safe for everyone, as long as you get to define what safety is.” That’s male privilege, and you’re profiting directly from it.

I am glad people open doors. But I don’t want to see how people (not all, but it doesn’t take many) react if something they don’t like happens. Which is when the small kindnesses and cooperation are most important.

In my less lovely moods, I want to tell them to cry me a river with their sensitive seeking of intimacy and vulnerability. When they’ve dealt with the kind of violent online abuse the women who supported the original criticism have, they can come talk to me about vulnerable.

I feel badly for the Penny Arcade Guys because I think they could have done so well with this, and I doubt they will ever recover fully.

]]>By: Danhttp://mightygirl.com/2013/09/05/pax-controversy-nice-guys-finishing-last/#comment-1267821
DanMon, 09 Sep 2013 15:56:31 +0000http://mightygirl.com/?p=24380#comment-1267821I'm astonished at the level of sexism displayed by feminists getting angry about the comic. Their assertion is that rape jokes are never ok because rape jokes are inherently anti-woman. At some point these people got the idea that only women can be raped. In the comic it's not a woman, it's a man. A woman shouldn't feel threatened by that. Further the whole point of the comic is that games have screwed up moral systems, it doesn't promote rape.
It's also clear from your post that you have little to no idea of what Penny Arcade is. Referring to Mike and Jerry as "organizers" is a crazy understatement. Mike and Jerry published the most popular webcomic for a decade and had so many fans that they decide to start PAX. PAX is the outgrowth of their comic, not the other way around.
What will happen when you actually go and read their comics? Will you be more shocked by the fruit fucker? An ongoing joke about a juicing machine that basically rapes fruit in order to make juice? If you don't like Penny Arcade that's fine but don't act like they broke some social contract with you, you obviously had no idea what you were attending.I’m astonished at the level of sexism displayed by feminists getting angry about the comic. Their assertion is that rape jokes are never ok because rape jokes are inherently anti-woman. At some point these people got the idea that only women can be raped. In the comic it’s not a woman, it’s a man. A woman shouldn’t feel threatened by that. Further the whole point of the comic is that games have screwed up moral systems, it doesn’t promote rape.

It’s also clear from your post that you have little to no idea of what Penny Arcade is. Referring to Mike and Jerry as “organizers” is a crazy understatement. Mike and Jerry published the most popular webcomic for a decade and had so many fans that they decide to start PAX. PAX is the outgrowth of their comic, not the other way around.

What will happen when you actually go and read their comics? Will you be more shocked by the fruit fucker? An ongoing joke about a juicing machine that basically rapes fruit in order to make juice? If you don’t like Penny Arcade that’s fine but don’t act like they broke some social contract with you, you obviously had no idea what you were attending.

]]>By: Jessicahttp://mightygirl.com/2013/09/05/pax-controversy-nice-guys-finishing-last/#comment-1267819
JessicaMon, 09 Sep 2013 14:51:52 +0000http://mightygirl.com/?p=24380#comment-1267819I'm sorry, but this is still unacceptable no matter what huge "nerds" these men may be. In fact, it almost makes it more annoying; if you yourself had self-esteem issues stemming from years of people saying upsetting things to you or undervaluing you in society how can you have so little compassion when you've been told you've done so yourself.
These are adult men who run a successful business, no matter their nerdiness or psychological issues they are accountable and obviously not daft. We are not referring to a simple incident; this has been three years running now, and it's continually prodded at by these guys. We hold women in society to such a high standard, especially in regards to rape culture and if they were asking for it, if they were the perfect victim who's never done anything wrong if they want a conviction. The very least we can hold men to is that they listen and apologize when they make a mistake instead of carrying on this way, no matter how lovely their conference was to you.I’m sorry, but this is still unacceptable no matter what huge “nerds” these men may be. In fact, it almost makes it more annoying; if you yourself had self-esteem issues stemming from years of people saying upsetting things to you or undervaluing you in society how can you have so little compassion when you’ve been told you’ve done so yourself.

These are adult men who run a successful business, no matter their nerdiness or psychological issues they are accountable and obviously not daft. We are not referring to a simple incident; this has been three years running now, and it’s continually prodded at by these guys. We hold women in society to such a high standard, especially in regards to rape culture and if they were asking for it, if they were the perfect victim who’s never done anything wrong if they want a conviction. The very least we can hold men to is that they listen and apologize when they make a mistake instead of carrying on this way, no matter how lovely their conference was to you.

]]>By: Fawnhttp://mightygirl.com/2013/09/05/pax-controversy-nice-guys-finishing-last/#comment-1267805
FawnSun, 08 Sep 2013 06:00:16 +0000http://mightygirl.com/?p=24380#comment-1267805I was just coming back to your site tonight to post a link to the Wired story after seeing that you had been at PAX. I have only followed this controversy tangentially, so I won't add anything directly about what happened. But I do want to thank you for your post. You put yourself at risk of attack just by addressing it honestly, but it is powerful to keep speaking the truth.I was just coming back to your site tonight to post a link to the Wired story after seeing that you had been at PAX. I have only followed this controversy tangentially, so I won’t add anything directly about what happened. But I do want to thank you for your post. You put yourself at risk of attack just by addressing it honestly, but it is powerful to keep speaking the truth.
]]>By: normhttp://mightygirl.com/2013/09/05/pax-controversy-nice-guys-finishing-last/#comment-1267804
normSun, 08 Sep 2013 00:35:15 +0000http://mightygirl.com/?p=24380#comment-1267804I am very much in sync with you on this. I was particularly disturbed because my oldest kid was working at PAX this year! If you tried the Oculus Rift you might have met my kid (super cute, lotsa tattoos) :D Anyway, the Krahulik problem is severe. I don't know what to do because it's so baffling.I am very much in sync with you on this. I was particularly disturbed because my oldest kid was working at PAX this year! If you tried the Oculus Rift you might have met my kid (super cute, lotsa tattoos) :D Anyway, the Krahulik problem is severe. I don’t know what to do because it’s so baffling.
]]>By: Rachelhttp://mightygirl.com/2013/09/05/pax-controversy-nice-guys-finishing-last/#comment-1267800
RachelSat, 07 Sep 2013 17:17:59 +0000http://mightygirl.com/?p=24380#comment-1267800PAX is the only convention that as a woman I feel comfortable and proud continuing to go to. Mike knows he messed up in the handling of the situation but I honestly don't think that anything he can say can make this better. If he doesn't say something, he gets reamed, if he says something, he gets reamed. I was there during the Khoo and A and I think the guy in the audience was only able to say that because of anonymity. This is not what gamers or the majority of PA fans think.
Who among us hasn't made a tasteless joke among friends, made a mistake or said something we regretted? The only difference here is they do it publicly. And these guys aren't celebrities with PR people. They are nerds thrust into fame who are doing these comics for thousands of their friends.
I have been a victim of sexual assault as has my husband. The comic however wasn't about that. It was about something we both love and have experienced: stupid video game quests.
On a completely different note, I'm sad I didn't see you at PAX, Maggie! I didn't know you were going to be there until I was home already.PAX is the only convention that as a woman I feel comfortable and proud continuing to go to. Mike knows he messed up in the handling of the situation but I honestly don’t think that anything he can say can make this better. If he doesn’t say something, he gets reamed, if he says something, he gets reamed. I was there during the Khoo and A and I think the guy in the audience was only able to say that because of anonymity. This is not what gamers or the majority of PA fans think.

Who among us hasn’t made a tasteless joke among friends, made a mistake or said something we regretted? The only difference here is they do it publicly. And these guys aren’t celebrities with PR people. They are nerds thrust into fame who are doing these comics for thousands of their friends.

I have been a victim of sexual assault as has my husband. The comic however wasn’t about that. It was about something we both love and have experienced: stupid video game quests.

On a completely different note, I’m sad I didn’t see you at PAX, Maggie! I didn’t know you were going to be there until I was home already.