vacuum cleaner makes "noise" for "purists"
yet they would still debate if it's actually "noise"
have some books on "industrial noise"
about factory decibel levels & occupational noise hazards
also some "ultrasound guns" for doing diagnostic measurements in factories
plus Sound Pressure Level Meters
besides various "Fluke" meters
hmmm
why is that?
don't get so caught up trying to define & make a nice little noise box for your sound
so your ego can fit in the correct subcategory genre
lest it only ends up becoming a coffin for your overall potential creativity

The only rule of noise is no rules. If you make techno and call it noise, then it is noise.

In order though for the term to be useful it needs to be more specific. I mean say a guy buys a distortion pedal to make noise,
given the above rule he would have no complaint if it didn't work.

(we have had this argument quite a few times over the years... and keeping it short we can see what was noise - in the case of HN HNW shares much in common with 'noise' as found in communication theory etc. And something like 'white noise' has a very specific definition.)

Rather than re-commence a 'shit-storm' with reference to some of my own 'musings' Nick Collins has done extensive studies into using software analysis to determine music / noise. His paper was presented at Huddersfield awhile ago, and was generally not well received by academics whose careers and 'expertise' was not open to this work.

But if you play the you tube of Silent Night - Merzbows! you can see that there is a correlation between the sound as noise and the
analysis. He used the open source SCMIR library for SuperCollider...

fortunately for me
eye was already "schooled" by official pataphysicist/metaphysicist
making "experimental noise"
decades before there was any "Merzbow"
or software analysis to determine music / noise
so where as for you it's is applicable and seemingly important
for me it is completely moot most of the time
try not getting completely hung up on it all the time
although he would probably agree with you
Eye can make tracks that meet your software music / noise analysis criteria
unless it's for some specific reason/purpose
plus it will probably get some vox & other elements
if he wants making "techno noise"
then he can attempt whatever he can pull off

obviously it contains multiple elements that "software analysis" didn't recognize as a traditional "sequence pattern" structure
can see your point/perspective somewhat
that track sounds less like a droney vacuum cleaner
must be the VCF
personally after listing for some of his tracks with "chaotic noise elements"
he should experiment with completely getting away from being locked to midi clock
use the DAW in total tape deck style
yet suspect he is completely bound via midi currently
such would make his tracks in such experimental style far less compu robotic
use your internal clock
BTW

fortunately for me
eye was already "schooled" by official pataphysicist/metaphysicist
making "experimental noise"
decades before there was any "Merzbow"
or software analysis to determine music / noise
so where as for you it's is applicable and seemingly important
....

My "studio" / bedroom circa 1974/5

(The Philips tape was good for the price servo controlled, could not afford a Revox... the ex-army throat mike was FAB)

The importance is that it supports a thesis that noise is significantly different to music...
I was never into pataphysics - and i'd argue that noise is not 'experimental'... I don't think volcanoes, waterfalls and
thunder storms are experiments...

"much of recent philosophy ... [is] a common rejection of philosophies of identity in favour of various philosophies of difference..."

no big stress Jilat
very much respekt for even conversing on such subjects
well you sort of get what eye am saying then
some of my my personal perspectives
including imprinting from old mentors
plus eye get tiny glimpse for view of your perspectives/experience
thanks for sharing that old picture of your studio
obviously your old EMS Synthi makes me drool
yet grew up on 60's 70's BBC as intense influences
plus EMS being used in "spacerock"
have "no shame" admitting such ever

we could also debate/hypothesize that noise both electric & acoustic is random disorder
also known as chaos
that has tendency making the average listener uncomfortable
disorientated
unhinged
because of the seemingly chaotic uncertainty principle
inducing primordial angst reactions
because of the seemingly disordered dissonant overtones
when the average human seeks regimented human formulaic construction of order
for comfortable sense of safety/security
most can not fathom that chaos is actually cosmic order
or dare admitting such to themselves
far beyond the grasp for most humans
it terrifies them to the very core
life & death
synchronicity
so they feel fear of the unknown
thus clinging for the illusion of safety
in every possible way as programmed survival instinct
path of least resistance
sustain
they want easily locking in the groove
of the wheel

Last edited by WhiteWarlock on Fri May 11, 2018 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

well that's part of my perception on the subject
therefore why utilize "noise"
in what would be termed by society as extremely "subversive" ways
for deprogramming the listeners whilst penetrating conditioning
such is very specific intent usage described
yet around here will only post styles such as:
experimental noise
industrial noise
noise rock
groovy noise drones
witch is more "fun" "amicable" & "safe" for listeners
much different definition of "Heavy"
less challenging for their "core existential reality"
eye am here vacationing
thanks for corresponding

This is a VERY big topic. White Noise was used as interrogation method by the British army during 'The Troubles' in Ireland.. even though its also used to help sleep! Philosophically Deleuze would be significant. Firstly his idea of the Rhizome Vs the Hierarchical tree structures (he anticipated here the internet amongst other features where a clear order is not found... and he used the term 'Chaosmos' which he borrowed from James Joyce.) Also with Guattari the idea of Schizoanalysis, his works at times are more 'performative' regarding chaos, so not IMO an easy read! 1000 plateaus has chapters on Rhizome, The misdeeds of the tree, The Body without Organs, Masochism, The War Machine, Wolf tracks on Snow etc... The disruptive nature of Noise has also been picked up by Ray Brassier – a philosopher – who has 'performed' with Mattin. His main published work Nihil Unbound is well titled.... and then of course randomness... from the I Ching, Tarot through to Nietzsche's Will to Power and the eternal return... …

“The total character of the world, however is in all eternity chaos...the whole musical box repeats eternally its tune which may never be called a melody – and ultimately even the phase “unsuccessful attempt” is too anthropomorphic and reproachful” GS 109

randomness... from the I Ching, Tarot through to Nietzsche's Will to Power and the eternal return... …

“The total character of the world, however is in all eternity chaos...the whole musical box repeats eternally its tune which may never be called a melody

reflecting on this entire stream of consciousness helped me resolve errors in KaosMidiFire
complex random evolving sequence generator constructed using "noise" static injectors
swapped some gears for debugging problems with system eye recently designed
was able pinpointing for troubleshooting using repetitive trial and error methods
made me focus for finding some serious mathematical errors that had previously missed in it's design
especially when working with analog control voltage ranges
now fully functioning as originally conceived it's ultimate operational applications

Eye will do some research on the writings your referenced when have some extra time

Many things can not be defined in terms of necessary and sufficient conditions. Even relatively simple objects, as highlighted by the sorites paradox. This is even more so when we have to deal with social phenomena.

Things like "noise music genre" or "biochemistry" are actually clusters of similar things with blurry edges.

Everyone will have their own definitions, and lists of canonical Noise exempla, and understandings what prototypical Noise sounds like. Noise can be a psychick weapon, or a concept-driven deliberate deconstruction of music form, or just a type of music where timbre is prioritized over tone and rhythm, a nastier version of ambient. Anyway, the Noise cluster is created collectively, the similarities contribute to the core, the differences to the blurry edges.

Importantly, no individual Noise listener probably agrees with everything that's in the core. Noise core are thigs that enough listeners agree with. So the core doesn't even have to be consistent. People end up on the same forum because of the similarities. They use it to wage holy wars in defense of True Noise because of the differences. And maybe holy wars are actually part of the core, along with (or rather, as a corollary of) "the only rule is no rules" and "you must buy a feedback looper".

TL;DR: you can call anything Noise, and it's Noise as long as enough NoiseGuide posters agree, so go buy a feedback looper

As I said Deleuze is difficult. Nietzsche on the other hand not so. A remarkable ego! A good intro IMO is his own 'Ecce Homo' in which he reviews his own publications and ideas in typical fashion.

" Among my writings my Zarathustra stands to my mind itself. With that I have given mankind the greatest present that has ever been made for it"

That's from his introduction, next is Why I Am So Wise, Why I Am So Clever, and Why I Write Such Good Books....

Just a few more quotes... "Ultimately, nobody can get more out of things, including books, than he already knows"...

"I am no man, I am dynamite"

"Have I been understood? - Dionysus versus the Crucified"

Apologies if you et al. already has come across this...

Eye never much explored any Deleuze
Freddy Nietzsche on the other hand
completed reading all his published works(including letters to his sister) by ironically age 23
then went for Schopenhauer then onto Max Muller
then somehow ended up immersed in Eastern metaphysics
Nietzsche probably would have been less of a tragic egotist artiste
if he absorbed works such as the yoga sutras of pantanjali
combined with seeking bodhisattva path rather that "western nihilism"
he may not have went into total catatonic shutdown witnessing animal abuse of the draft horse
and instead just walked over and slapped the shit out of the guy
making him stop causing sadistic suffering for the horse
big egotist like him cracks like a total lunatic at his apex moment of "enlightenment"
what did he realize that caused his complete mental breakdown?
hmmm
it literally made "Freddy" completely STFU
Crushed "Beneath The Wheel"
He should have done more of his own intensified research for embarking upon another path
rather than cling like a baby to Schopenhauer's twisted egocentric western mutation of Buddhist teachings
yet that's merely my perspective anymore on the subject
no wonder why that fuckhead coked out sex maniac fiend Freud idolized Schopenhauer so much also
Jung followed other paths
thus why they became in complete opposition whilst Jung worked for Freud

Last edited by WhiteWarlock on Sat May 12, 2018 10:40 am, edited 5 times in total.