Engineer build for 20+ Fractals

I currently have a Guardian at level 25 fractals but I would really like to play my Engineer as well. I am using a P/P Elixir build with 10/30/0/30/0 traits. I feel like I am not contributing much to the group compared to my guardian.
I want to know if there is an engineer build that is strong at 20+ Fractals (I really don't like to use the grenade kit) even if I could use a support build that would be great. I am just wondering what build the members on this forum use and how much success you have had with it.

Pretty much any build that doesn't focus on elixirs (which are boring, mostly selfish, and redundant with med kit & elixir gun w/ kit refinement) or turrets (which are just useless at higher levels) will work fine.

To Spacekiwi: Elixir R toolbelt skill is one of the best group util you have and throw in the skill which removes stun and gives you 2 extra dodges for survival. You can pretty much spec however you want but my way of doing it is glass canon with grenade 1500 range while healing, ressing and removing debuffs from my mates when needed. I'm also at lvl 30 and don't really see the point in progressing untill a.net gives better rewards for higher lvl fracs.

Edit: Thanks to two maces which cleared out the misunderstanding I had, I was confused by reading it over and over again.

Correct.
Most elixir builds:
--excellent condi removal for yourself
--excellent support for yourself
--mediocre condi removal for others
--mediocre support for others
--requires 20 in alchemy and two majors for effectiveness
--is boring to play

EGun w/ kit refinement coupled with med kit:
--just as much on demand condition removal as most elixir builds
--much of that is in a large AoE that also heals over time
--that large condi removing HoT AoE is also a light field for combos
--that large condi removing HoT AoE light field can also be permanent
--superior AoE condi removal for the group on an even shorter cooldown than your elixirs
--much more utility/options in battle
--only requires 10 points in tools
--more exciting to play because it presents more options and mobility

So 10 points in tools (kr IV), a specific heal, and one utility turns you into a hybrid support build no matter what else you build for.
If you take those 10 point in tools and turn it into 20 (kr IV, ps VII), coupled with 10 in firearms (rb IV), that turns you into a support MACHINE, while still leaving 40 trait point open to focus on damage/durability.
Engineers shine like no other profession when it comes to building for versatility. Unlike most other professions, when they build for versatility they can often do so while still being effective at most of it, but they'll never be the best at any of it (except possibly support).

So in comparison, elixir builds are boring and selfish. And as everyone knows turrets are basically useless at higher levels.

So in comparison, elixir builds are boring and selfish. And as everyone knows turrets are basically useless at higher levels.

I'd like to argue in favor of elixirs --- Particularly, elixir S, and maybe elixir R.

Elixir S and Elixir R are both stun breakers, that's the emphasis there. Rez circle on elixir R is one of our best support, and 2 free dodges = sweet, sweet life. Elixir S gives you 3 seconds of immunity, even from agony, not counting Jade Maw. This means if you took a wrong turn and weren't able to dodge Fire Shaman arrow, and/or if you couldn't get away in time for Cliffside final boss blinding light, you will live. And I'm talking about 40+ where no amount of AR can save you from certain death. Selfish? Maybe. But I'm glass cannon specced, I don't expect myself to do much support other than occasional conditon removal with thrown elixirs, supply crate, and rez circle. The second that I've used to cast a condition removing HoT AoE is much better spent throwing 3 grenades into the mobs who will otherwise devourer one of our team members in a split second regardless of healing and/or conditions on him.

Basically, the further you go up fractal, the more pressure there is to 1. dps down things fast, which means often I can't even hesitate to cleanse off the condition on me unless I'll die from it --- if you don't kill those things fast, you maybe dead 2 seconds later when they launch their next attack (and/or avoid them all together through stealth, of course) and 2. keep yourself alive because more than often others can't spare the time to save you while trying to stay alive themselves, and 3. no amount of healing/support is going to save someone who missed a dodge (unless it's aegis/aoe block/projectile reflect field, which we Engi don't have). I can see perhaps switching elixir R for elixir gun if you've got enough warriors with banner rez, but elixir S is just... Too good, even with lackluster thrown effects.

As for the OP's question, this is what I find: You really need grenades for the aoe potential and the range, that will allow you to go cannon and still stay alive. You'll be contributing more than enough in a group with nades (condition specc). Flamethrower in direct damage spec with Jaggernaut works for a few fractals, but for a few others you simply can't use it (range issue, and can't be used underwater). Everything else are both too little damage and not enough aoe. As for support build, I feel it's better to leave that role to guardians, and *maybe* the odd mesmer/elementalist, but if you're really good at supporting then go ahead. Just be ready to face the fact that one shots will happen a lot, which means both healing and condition removal diminish in value, but as Engi you can still make use of your stuns/knockdown/knockback to save someone.

You may be able to do just fine without trying to maximize damage (and even if you prefer a support/survival build, you can still maximize damage within your build), but that's assuming someone in your group is a cannon, and/or everyone in your group is half cannon. Without the heavy aoe of grenades or flamethrower, if you run into a bunker group, you will simply not be able to get through many of the encounters, such as cliffside and grawl. Actually, a pure bunker group will probably be miserable in ALL fractals, nothing dies, and eventually a person makes a mistake and gets 1 shotted, and everything goes downhill from there. Or, mobs will simply overwhelm you in a few seconds if you can't kill them fast enough.

If you're already on your Guardian, and you don't want to use grenades with your engi (I don't know where you stand on flamethrowers, but again you can't use them for half of the fractals), from 30+ you start to realize the visible advantage of Guardian for support. And from 40+ life is just much, much easier with Guardian, you'll feel like a very important part of the group, something that sometimes you just can't get from a none-grenadier engi on those fractal levels.

Disclaimer: But if it is engi that you enjoy, definitely go ahead, just a few words of warning... In either case I think since you're thinking about it, you might as well go ahead and try it out.

I wasn't arguing against the use of elixirs, I was arguing against the use of elixir builds. Versatility is one of the Engineer's biggest strengths. Elixir builds almost always have a minimum of two elixirs as utilities, in addition to their heal being an elixir. This leaves only a single utility for something else, and takes a minimum of 20 trait point to make them useful.
Generally speaking, you can get better results from using med kit and a single utility (EGun) while only having to spend 10 trait points to get those overall better results.

Elixirs have their place, no doubt. But builds relying on them almost exclusively, as most elixir builds do, certainly are boring and selfish in comparison.

I just started doing 20+ and haven't found any difficulty that can't be fixed with just 5 more AR

I have 30 in Explosives (shrapnel for bleeds, incendiary powder for burns, grenadier for DPS)
20 in Firearms (Precise Sights for vulnerability, Infused Precision for swiftness)
and 20 in Alchemy (Invigorating Speed for 100% uptime on vigor with Infused Precision, and Cleaning Formula 409 for condition removal)

At first I was geared with totally power/vit/cond but when they made the changes to greandes, I have been equipping more prec/cond/prec. Five pieces of my main gear is power/vit/cond while almost everything else is prec/cond/prec. My crit chance is 42% which is good but could be better. I find I have a very good mix of toughness and vitality which boosts my EHP (they are almost equal at about 1300). I might drop some power/vit/cond for other gear since I am finding the extra power to be a little useless now that most of my damage comes from bleed stacks. I am not worried about losing vitality since I would only be gaining more toughness and because I can cleanse conditions easily.

With this stat set-up I do terrific damage to mobs and bosses using grenades. I also equip elixer gun for the super elixir, acid bomb, and fumigate. My main weapons are pistol and shield, which I only ever switch to for the shield skills when I'm in danger (or want to combo blast fields, preferably water for the heal) or for the poison darts on the pistol which I sometimes fit into my DPS rotation.

I equip elixer H for heals and B for the buffs it gives.

I have been trying to think of a way to improve this build. Maybe add some healing stat since I have a few sources of healing? I read about putting 10 points into the Tools traits for kit refinement but I am still unsure.

Do any engineers run similar builds to mine?

Also I have 20 in elixirs but only use two total elixirs which works fine for me. The vitality from the tree and boon up time are very helpful since my build produces so many boons.

Or is it better to drop healing power as a stat and go Rabid? Thing is you can get a lot of support (vulnerability with everything or blindness when playing rifle) as well as a huge damage increase (Sigil of Earth, bleed on crit trait and burn on crit trait), so I'm not really sure if the 0.5 on Med Kit and 0.2 / 0.1 scaling on Elixir Gun is really worth it.

Or is it better to drop healing power as a stat and go Rabid? Thing is you can get a lot of support (vulnerability with everything or blindness when playing rifle) as well as a huge damage increase (Sigil of Earth, bleed on crit trait and burn on crit trait), so I'm not really sure if the 0.5 on Med Kit and 0.2 / 0.1 scaling on Elixir Gun is really worth it.

For 20+, support seems fine, no one will give you a hard time about it, and you'll get past fractal levels without major problems. Once you get to 30+ you'd experience some difficulty, 40+ you'd need to really fine tune your support spec for maximum damage, and 50+ pretty much grenadier is the only way to go without your team rather getting someone else (swapping you out for a guardian/mesmer/ele/war). The higher you go, the more reliance on personal dodging skill and raw dps (preferably aoe).