My claim that Osmond would not get the same PCS at Worlds against the likes of Yuna is simply based on what ISU judges have given these respective skaters in previous recent competitions (excluding Nationals). For Yuna the most recent case is NRW Trophy, where she averaged in the upper 8's despite her mistakes in the LP, while Kaetlyn averaged a 7 at Nebelhorn Trophy in her free skate. If you insist that Canadian nationals scores is not in any way inflated relative to international competitions, that's your prerogative.

Your understanding of how things work at ISU events and championships is not correct. Marks for skaters are anything but consistent, especially when comparing scores given to X skater at the very beginning of the season vs. the end of the season (aka. World Championship). Even in Ice Dance, the discipline where marks tend to be the most consistent of all disciplines, significant movement can occur within a span of months. In Singles, that can change even quicker and the marks or ranking drastically change as well. For example, in the 1996-97 season, Michelle Kwan was the most dominant female skater as the reigning World Champion. That remained true through the Champion Series, GP Series' predecessor. Tara Lipinski was only 15th at Worlds in the previous year and during CS Series, finished as low as 3rd at Trophée Lalique (now Trophée Eric Bompard) and 2nd at Skate Canada. Suffice to say, the early season Presentation marks that Lipinski got were nothing to write home about. Michelle continued to dominate - until all of sudden, Michelle fell apart at the FS of U.S. Nationals and surprisingly lost to Lipinski. Tara went on to win the World Championship that year, becoming the youngest female ever to win such honor. It's interesting to note that by the time of Lausanne Worlds, Lipinski's Presentation marks have risen to a point that even though Michelle Kwan did not fall apart in her FS and actually won that portion of the competition, Tara's marks have shot upward so much in both SP and LP that Michelle simply couldn't catch up even after winning the FS.

History aside, when you think about it, skaters do improve and/or adjust their programs and become more comfortable as they gain mileage - why should the marks be fairly consistent between beginning and the end of the season? That makes no sense. Plus, you were taking marks from the Nebelhorn Trophy - an event in which she was virtually an unknown and compare it to Kim's marks at an a minor event where she was the only skater of note in which she made a sensational appearance after almost 2 years with her celebrity status - that kind of comparison is flawed on so many levels. Typically, skaters with celebrity status who make a comeback tend to skip most international events until their goal, let that be the Olympics or Worlds. Why? They know they are at an disadvantage vs. those skaters who are constantly competing. So by making their debut at the desired event, they were hoping that judges wouldn't have enough time to get used to their routines and overlook any flaws they may have. Although this was not what Kim was doing, her marks at her 1st event after an absence of almost 2 years where none of the other skaters present could possibly challenge her even if she fell 4 times and start making back flips will benefit significantly from the celebrity status that she has. It is not to say the judges would intentionally overmark her - simply that judges are human and they too would be excited and feel honored to be able to attend an event where Kim chose to debut after almost 2 years away.

I'm not basing this on reputation, but on the reasonable assumption that judges tend to be consistent and conservative with their PCS scores on skaters over several competitions, rarely varying them by much over course of a season. So I would be shocked if Osmond scored within 8 to 9 at Worlds even if she is clean. Skating skills, interpretation and choreography do not vary significantly in such a short period of time. It's the GOE's that vary more based on actual execution.

Like I explained above, that is simply not true. There are many factors that could potentially explain lower marks at the beginning of the season, especially for a rookie who is in her 1st season as a senior. More specifically, if that rookie skater turned some heads during the season, e.g. beating some big shots en route to winning his/her Nationals and other International events of note, the marks will be anything but consistent between the early season and the end of season. A lot of it just human nature and of course, the playing field will be a little more leveled in terms of reputation influence. Say Gracie Gold wins the U.S. Championship this weekend, expect her PCS marks to get boost as well at her next International event, let that be the 4CC or Worlds even though she only finished 8th at Skate Canada. If you were to use her Skate Canada PCS to try to box her in, you'd make a serious error.

Why wouldn't her moves before the 3Flip count as transition? They are steps; now as far as difficulty that's debatable, but how anyone would say they don't count as transitions I don't understand. The same with the move before the 3Lutz, it may not technically be a spiral, but it's still a transition; in particular it at least counts as a body-movement transition.

Let me ask you this question, at the elite senior level, what do you think are the judges' expectation re: connecting steps and moves in the field? Was she skating at a junior event or was that a senior event? Sure, there was "something" but that "something" is so beneath the expectation at this level that it is simply not sufficient. A quasi-spiral is not a spiral and therefore, is not a Move in the Field. I am sure you have listened to TV coverage where commentators would be identifying the different steps and moves going to some elements - well, that's exactly what judges do too in competition - they do so mentally. Here you have a reigning Olympic Champion who showed up and 8 of her 10 jump and spin elements were not preceded by any identifiable move in the field or connecting steps - what am I supposed to say? That it's great because it's Yu Na skating? Yet, if an X skater whom you never heard of, showed up and do the same thing, are we supposed to give her an 8.0 as well for TR? Now, I read jaylee's reply, I will get to that shortly but I want to finish here by asking you a question : Do you feel Yu Na's overall transitions, linking footwork & movements in her Nationals LP are on par with what she is capable of, say during the 2010 Olympic season?

I counted at least 3 steps: LBO to RFI Choctaw to LBO Choctaw, a couple of strokes, and then another Choctaw (RBO to LFI), then 3turn into 3F. I don't understand why you think there are no steps.

You are correct in your identification of Choctaw. However, at this level if only a single type of turn is performed and nothing else accompanies it, then it is not deemed as sufficient to meet the requirement of connecting steps - otherwise, it simply becomes too easy. Put it this way, a skater can accidentally perform a Choctaw by simply entering a spin from back inside edge into forward outside edge - should that count as transition as well into the said spin and therefore merit extra bullet points? The rules are in fact quite stringent with regard to what satisfies as connecting steps and or comparable free skating moves in that even a single spread eagle or spiral is considered insufficient and therefore, cannot be considered as a difficult entry for the purpose of GOE (albeit, in practice during FS, that depends on how lenient the individual judge is). Since it doesn't satisfy the requirement as part of the GOE, it would also be difficult to say it meets the "variety, difficulty and intricacy" requirements of TR component as well. The only thing that can be considered here is the quality of the execution but that only satisfies 1 of the 4 sub-criteria within the TR component. In hindsight, the exasperate way I stated it make it sound I was dismissive of that. In part, that's because I felt jaylee was making up things that didn't exist, including the non-existent back spiral and the so called "mini-spread eagle". Thanks for making this good point.

I agree that the movement before the jump entry does not count as a back spiral, but it's not stroking or gliding, either. Also immediately exiting the jump is a RBO loop (not loop jump) --- one could argue about its quality but it is not doubt choreographically intended to be a loop. I'm not jaylee, so I don't know what she/he referred to as "mini-SE."

1) See above, even if it were an actual spiral but with nothing along with it, it is simply unsatisfactory at this level. The expectation is quite a bit higher if a skater wants to get higher than 7.00 for TR - they got to be able to demonstrate variety and technical proficiency. Plus, the movement was extremely brief.

2) The loop you described was no doubt choreographically intended but I note it was done on flat edge, from what I can see (are we looking at the same thing?). I would even go as far to say it's well placed and should be reflected in the CH component. But as far as TR component is concerned, it does not constitute a difficult exit for the jump given it was executed on two foot with flat/unclear edges.

I take that you deem this satisfactory because she wasn't just stroking into her 3F. Funny that you are using a clip from Michelle Kwan from the pre-CoP era. Have you considered why Michelle Kwan never achieved much success under CoP as she once did under 6.0 system?

As for the spread eagle, well, she's not just standing on two feet, they are pointed outwards. She does need to get on more of an edge to make it a true spread eagle, I'll give you that, but she is gliding.

sigh...you obviously feel that's good enough - a move that cannot be identified in any technical term and was clearly done for choreographic value is now being sub for a transition move as well. I don't feel like arguing because it's pointless. Let's just say her competition is doing a lot more than that and you wonder why many members here in this thread alone have already started marking Osmond's TR above that of Kim? That's shocking - a young rookie getting a TR component higher than the Yu Na Kim, the reigning Olympic Champion!? Take it however you want, I offered some constructive feedback in the old thread with the sole intention that her fans will let her know what areas she needs to focus on. Yu Na got some work with regard to her TR in order to improve her record at World Championships, which for all her talent, she only ever won it once or she may yet lose to Asada once again. Mao has greatly improved her overall skating besides jumps. Instead, I feel you all just became extremely defensive and accusatory - totally closed to feedback.

Thank you. You said that the "lack of difficult transitions was impossible to miss," but somehow, you missed these.

And I was correct. The fact she did a SE and one Ina Bauer do not make them difficult transitions, please see response to little_meatball. Besides, if I recall correctly, I suggested a mark of 6.50 not 0.00 for TR. While 6.50 is relatively low for her, it cannot be achieved without giving consideration to her overall execution and effort - it's just that more is expected at this level. Otherwise, Plushenko would be getting all 8-9s for TR by just showing up.

Thanks for stating the obvious, of course it's more difficult to go into a jump straight of an Ina Bauer or Spread Eagle. I am simply agreeing with you because there is nothing to disagree about except to remind you the fact in this review, I have been offering constructive feedback - call it nitpick if that suits you better - does not constitute a dismissal of the things she has achieved and it doesn't change that fact such moves were far & few in between, which I count only 2 out 10.

Part of having good transitions is not having a lot of crossovers and strokes in between elements. It's about seamless integration of one element into another without stroking. A skater who goes from her salchow and goes directly into footwork should get a better TR score than a skater who lands the salchow, does a few crossovers before beginning her footwork sequence.

While that is generally true, it depends. At the elite senior level, most skaters do not have any difficulty to transition from the exit of a jump with momentum into either a spin or step sequence. Rarely would you see the Top 15 skaters in the world needing a lot of crossovers or strokes to start their step sequence. Further to that, the seamless transition without needing much assistance or rest falls more under SS (this is an acceleration, which is defined in as a sub-criterion of SS) than TR as the latter is and I quote : "The varied and/or intricate footwork, positions, movements, and holds that link all elements." If a skater who went from a jump straight into a step sequence, then there is no linking footwork or movement to speak of and therefore, one cannot evaluate something that was not performed. That is also why in the GOE criteria, examples were specifically given and defined that extra consideration should be given when spin or step sequences (or equivalent free skating moves) immediately preceding the jump but the rule never defined or stated that a spin or step sequence immediately preceded by a jump should be given extra consideration. Please see ISU Communication 1724, p. 10 "Jump Elements" #2 Therefore, such execution does not set the said skater apart from the rest to warrant any special consideration for TR in my view.

No, there is not. The only transitions you are including in your definition are moves in the fields/difficult entrances that immediately precede the element, and you are only counting them in terms of quantity but not taking into account their difficulty. Yu-Na is NOT just stroking in between elements--she's got SOMETHING preceding her flip and lutz, therefore it's a skating move. I don't care what you call it, it's not nothing.

All right, can you please give us other examples, using the youtube link, difficult transitions and/or free skating moves that Yu Na did that was not immediately preceding or after an element?

You also need to weigh the difficulty of each transition, which you are not doing. A skater with spread eagles and Ina Bauers in between elements but not connected to a jump should get a lower TR score than a skater who connects them to a jump, which Yu-Na did in this case.

I am confused. You just claimed that I only considered moves that were immediately preceding or after an element but now you are saying she did them connected to a jump unlike other skaters who didn't? So did she have more or not and were they connected to the elements or standalone?

Here's another ISU video on transitions, this time focusing on body movement transitions.

When you're using your whole body, that also counts as part of transitions. And that's what Yu-Na does throughout her program--she is using her whole body. The example that I also cited was also another example of a whole body movement--when the music changes tempo and she looks up, raises one arm and lifts the opposite leg; then raises the other arm and then the other leg, continuing to look up. Is it a move in the field? No. But according to the ISU video above, it's certainly an example of full body transitions. Which you're not crediting her for.

Once again, I need to remind you I did not suggest a mark of 0.00 for her TR but 6.50. Does Plushenko have good upper body movement and transitions? Yes, without a doubt. Does he have issue with Linking Footwork? Yes, because he is not doing much one-foot skating. My comments were focused what I deem the specific areas she needs to work on - the movements beneath her knees, not the ones above them. The fact I didn't comment on her upper body does not mean I am not giving her credit for them.

I wonder that you're picking on Yu-Na instead of Kostner or Asada; it must be because you think she's a bigger threat. Therefore this treatment is kind of flattering in a bizarre but not entirely unexpected way.

I see that paranoia has got the best of you and making you a normally logical and rational person to make such absurd comments. Threat to who? Osmond? That's very flattering. I don't think anyone has seriously believed that Osmond is a threat to Kim's chances at the 2013 World. Besides, Osmond's goal is to finish top 10 at Worlds this year so unless Kim can be cloned and physically occupy all the spots from 1st to 10th, Kim is a threat to Asada or Kostner's ambition but not to Osmond.

In the years leading up to the 2010 Olympics, you heard a lot about Yu-Na's lack of a triple loop and a lot about Joannie Rochette's complete set of 5 triples/attempting 7 (never mind that she never hit them all _cleanly_ in a major important international event), because that was Joannie's advantage versus Yu-Na. Rochette was more of an athlete than an artist, so picking at Yu-Na's PCS was not going to work in that case.

Now you have Kaetlyn Osmond, who at this point is a good jumper but definitely her strength is in her performance ability; she lacks a loop so you can't use that against Yu-na anymore, she does not have a difficult triple/triple, she does not have a true lutz. She hasn't skated a clean FS in a major competition all season long. Osmond does have great transitions though so the first thing to do is go after the top competitor's transitions and try to make it seem like they are worse than they are.

Uh...excuse me, during the leading up to the 2010 Olympics, the Korean fans totally adored me to the point some people on GS thought I may be Korean. Thanks, I am very flattered but I am not. They sent me messages, asking me questions, politely and nicely - never the kind of animosity thrown at me after Kim ended her partnership with Orser and of course now as well, which I am frankly not sure why. I don't understand why you made up falsehood like this, I think this is quite rude and unfair because many people here in GS can be my witness to that and that's one of the reasons I came to this forum because a Korean fan asked me to come here. I call spade a spade. You'll see me defending Asada's win at NHK but I'd criticize her marks at Japanese Nationals. Kim has done great things leading to the Olympic so of course, back then, I pretty much only had nice things to say about her. I am dismayed at your animosity but having read many of your thoughtful posts, I am inclined to believe you simply got carried away and let your feelings colored your memory and will not take offense at what you just said. I hope that if you want to continue conversation in the future, it would be done in a more respectful and less accusatory tone.

Here's my comparison (comparing two clean programs from both Kaetlyn and Yu-Na):
SS: Yu-Na should receive at least 1.00-1.50 points more than Kaetlyn here (I would give an 8.75-9.00 to Yu-Na and around 7.50 to Kaetlyn), Yu-Na is obviously better in speed, quality of the edges and in the use of the blades, better technique in the cross-overs, more confidence on the ice.
TR: I think that Kaetlyn here should have a small edge, like 8.50 for Kaetlyn vs a 8.00-8.25 for Yu-Na, Kaetlyn has really A LOT of transitions, and they are REALLY difficult, if you watch all the arm movements and the steps that she has in and out of every element and throughout the entire program, I think she's really the best in the world at the moment, in this category; Yu-Na is very good, too, but not as good as Kaetlyn, in my opinion.
PE: this depends on how they skate, obviously, but assuming that they both skate clean, I think that talking about "Physical, emotional and intellectual involvement" they are almost tied, Yu-Na is better talking about "Carriage" and "Clarity of movements", Kaetlyn about "Style and individual personality", Variety and contrast" and "Projection", so I would give 9.00 to Kaetlyn and 8.75 to Yu-Na.
CH: Kaetlyn is really better here, I have to admit it, for me it would be like a 8.75 to Kaetlyn and 8.25 to Yu-Na
IN: Yu-Na is better here, more mature and sophisticated, so a 9.00 vs a 8.00-8.25.
So, my marks would be:
Yu-Na: 9.00/8.25/8.75/8.25/9.00
Kaetlyn: 7.75/8.50/9.00/8.75/8.25
So, the total for Yu-Na would be 69.20, for Kaetlyn 67.60: for me there isn't a "big gap", but Yu-Na still has the lead...

Thank you for your thoughtful reply, it's very well written and stated. Our opinion is very similar, except I would give Yu Na higher PE mark over Kaetlyn but the latter having higher IN mark over Yu Na. Maturity in itself is a subjective term, this is not what I go by to determine who has a better interpretation. Les Misérables is one of my favorite story since I grew up in a French environment and know the story very well. It is a story with a lot of highs and so does its music. Seeing how the professional actors portrayed this story on stage over the years, it bothered me that Kim skated as though it's Valse Triste, not Les Misérables. That's why I posted the old link to Laetitia Hubert's interpretation of it. Despite not having anywhere near Kim's quality in skating, Laetitia got the expressions correctly - the powerful music has to end on an uplifting mood in order to accentuate the liberation and freedom that marked the ending. Kim's facial expression and mood stayed at the same level throughout, I think that's why some people in the other thread stated that it's hard to know what her genuine expression is as she rarely skates with her soul in her performance, which I concur. Still, I think she deserved a 8.00 for the effort since I realize sometimes knowing too much about a story can make a person become too nitpicky. I suppose that's why Osmond surprised many spectators already because when she skates, there seems very little doubt she puts her soul into her performances. To me, this is a defining difference between these two skaters.

The soul takes flight to a world that is invisible, but there arriving she is assured of bliss and forever dwells in paradise.

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So I am really curious Wallylutz, please answer the following questions.

1. Are you an international ISU judge? A Candian National ISU judge? Or just a GS poster moonlight as a judge?
2. How would you score Kaetlyn at Nationals, at WC level?
3. Do you think your opinion is at all biased since clearly you are hoping for Canada getting 3 spots at world which you implied in the Canadian Nationals thread.

Originally Posted by wallylutz

Although not very likely, there is a chance she could secure three spots. If she wins at least a Silver Medal, then Canada will have 3 spots in ladies next year. For that happen, she is going to need some help though given Asada and Kostner's bombing at some past World Championships, it is improbable at this point but doable.

I fail to see how Kaetlyn warrant this type of discussion which are not even done for US ladies last year. As far as I know her SP was also kept from her Junior days, so she certainly had plenty of run through and displayed the same infectious bubbly and sass similar to Mirai's Carmen, which was performed much better than her Carmen here. (The best Carmen of the season however belong to Virtue and Moir). For now, I'd rate her as a Canada's Lenova at best - with slightly better jumps and much better programs, which is flattering considering Lenova is a world bronze medalist, and a good projection exhibitionist like Kaetlyn here with similar COP friendly program, but lack finesse, refinement, nuances, intricacies, subtleties, I look for a complete range of artistic interpretations. Without a strong federation and mostly compete at home, would she really rank that high? I guess we will see at 4CC and at worlds.

Although Kaetlyn is enormously talented and have good potentials but we just have not seen enough from her to warrant this amount of hype you are trying to give her. Personally, I'd still rate Liza above her and would be interested to see how they compete at worlds. Liza rather than protected, sheltered and boosted by her own federation, she was thrown right into the deep end including all the politicking against her and earned her stripes without cushioned PCS, but she need better COP programs that allows her do what she can do (bar injuries and growing spurts that hindered her early this year). I remember I was also more impressed by Julia when she was only age 14, and according to your obsessions with only certain types of transitions, Julia should win in every competition with Kaetlyn. I'd also rank Li Zijun above her for now, except her style of performance is probably less friendly to the sass favoured N.American audiences but is very pleasing to my idea of lovely skating well suited for her age. These ranking may all change by the end of the season of course, depends on how Kaetlyn does for the rest of the season.

This thread is incredible, I want to thank everyone (especially Wallylutz and Jaylee) for such a edifying discussion about the ins and outs of ice skating rules and the judging process. I'm a strong Yuna fan, because her skating touches and impresses me, but I do freely admit my ignorance of the technical aspects of ice skating and I'm very impressed by the level of discussion on that topic in this thread.

I'm beginning to become a fan of Miss Osmond, she is very talented and I love her speed and jumping ability, and maybe most importantly she is beginning to show the sort of consistency that is needed for true greatness on the ice. Too many young skaters (especially girls) display amazing potential and then hit rough patches and never recover. What distinguishes the budding superstars of tomorrow is consistency in their early years (I think) and Miss Osmond is beginning to show that.

And? Let me remind you that fans are the ones who pay for this sport. You saw those empty chairs at CN in the arena. Which means that locals were not that much earger to see Osmond, Voir or Chan. Care to know why? Exactly thanks to this type of discussions: "I am Dr. Phil and you just pay my rent". OP's perspective of PCS is all about what she called "transitions", which can be formulated in short "Kim has none, just like Plushenko and Joubert." And all the rest of OP's idea of PCS is "Kim has the same face expression". Such view doesn't correspond to ISU demands therefore count as null and void. It also definitely doesn't correspond to the audience's expectation and the result you know- empty seats.

Still I have to admit how much I envy Canadian skaters. Besides having the countryman in charge of fs in ISU and the most generous in scoring federation, they also have the most operative media at hand that can't anything regarding Canadian skaters go, starting from presumably bribing judges finishing with poisoning Patrick's non-organic chicken in Sochi's cow food to which "their Russian body has adapted with all the cigarettes they smoke." But their real treasure is the Canadian fandom who sacrifice their personal time on writing sheets of rants without any fear of coming out as gullible. I feel like a lazy butt as a fan who should be really ashamed of myself.

So I am really curious Wallylutz, please answer the following questions.

1. Are you an international ISU judge? A Candian National ISU judge? Or just a GS poster moonlight as a judge?
2. How would you score Kaetlyn at Nationals, at WC level?
3. Do you think your opinion is at all biased since clearly you are hoping for Canada getting 3 spots at world which you implied in the Canadian Nationals thread.

WL can't be an ISU judge. An ISU judge is supposed to be or at least prentend to be neutral or non-nationalistic. WL twists his/her knowledge to defend, praise Canadian skaters, coaches. How could he/she be an ISU judge? I remember WL highly praised YuNa when she was with Orser. After the break-up, he/she usually nitpicks YuNa.

Inflated Nationals scores don't automatically boost international scores. As much as Canadian fans want Osmond to be on the same level as Kim, wishing doesn't make it so.

We're talking about a skater (Kim) who is among the all-time greats. Even if she is off her 2010 level, she is still the class of the field. As far as Kaetlyn, I find it interesting that if Mao were to skate these type of programs she would be called 'juniorish' by many on here, but when Kaetlyn skates the same programs she is all of a sudden on par with Yuna artistically.

We're talking about a skater (Kim) who is among the all-time greats. Even if she is off her 2010 level, she is still the class of the field. As far as Kaetlyn, I find it interesting that if Mao were to skate these type of programs she would be called 'juniorish' by many on here, but when Kaetlyn skates the same programs she is all of a sudden on par with Yuna artistically.

I was sort of thinking this in particular with Kaetlyn's Carmen program. I remember when Mirai got lots of criticism when she did her FS to Carmen in 2010 because she was too juniorish or not mature enough for Carmen. Yet when Kaetlyn does a similar program with that same perk, people argue that she's a great performer. For the record, I think there's room for perky and bullish Carmens too.