My response to the list. (I have already made a formal complaint to
the necessary people).

Right at the start of this thread I made the point that I had no
particular political axe to grind. I had hoped that the discussion
would focus on the issues that are relevant to this listserv, namely
religion and science, and their relationship.

Let me reiterate, I have no partisan political axe to grind. As for
Obama, he is clearly an impressive orator, but I am under no illusion
that what politicians do often doesn't match up to what they say, and
whether Obama will be any different to this remains to be seen.

None of this justifies the disgraceful and offensive attack on my
country contained in Mr. Clounch's email, which I consider to be an
affront.

Clearly Obama is hopelessly naive. If a group of Christians can't
even get along without bickering about differences and making
disparaging attacks on each other's country, then what hope is there
for a country of Christians and Muslims and Hindus and Jews and
non-believers to pull together?

Iain

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 6:35 AM, David Clounch <david.clounch@gmail.com> wrote:
> Iain,
> Maybe it would be best to keep partisan politics totally off this list?
>
> Iain, Perhaps you would be better off to go to Dublin and stand on a street
> corner to preach about the subject of unification and working together?
> My clan McCarty cousins have some tomatoes they tell me are badly in need
> of throwing.
>
> I know sooooo many people in the USA who are buying guns who never owned
> guns before. I was told today all gun suppliers are sold out. Its a
> historical record! Thats just since the election.
> People are afraid now who were not afraid before (I mean under the previous
> administration). Does that sound like unity has been inspired?
> What are people afraid of, one wonders? I think they are afraid our country
> will become like your country. It's maybe understandable. It would scare
> the willies out of me to live in the UK.
>
> As for Christians, the way I read history books is that the Tories and the
> Continentals who were butchering each other in 1776 through 1781 were all
> church going Christians.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 9:37 PM, Nucacids <nucacids@wowway.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Iain,
>>
>>
>>
>> "From my listening to Obama's speeches (I've heard the one he gave
>> exactly a year ago at the MLK church, and the inaugural speech), this
>> certainly seems to be a recurring Obama theme - that we should
>> concentrate on what we have in common to work together, rather than
>> fighting over differences. Since it recurs so often it would seem
>> reasonable to say that at the very least it is something he feels
>> passionately about."
>>
>>
>>
>> Perhaps. On the other hand, it is a common theme among politicians, so I
>> bet it has been focus group tested and the handlers have determined it to be
>> very good for public image. This explains why McCain was using the same
>> theme in his campaign. Even Bush was sounding the same theme back when he
>> was elected in 2000.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm too cynical to attach any real meaning to politicians' words. We'll
>> have to wait a couple of years to see the actions in order to make a better
>> assessment.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> I think the phrase you are objecting to is just a bit of journalistic
>>> writing. It is more interesting to see it in the context:
>>>
>>> Most of all, he feels
>>> deep in his heart that our problems can never be solved, let alone to
>>> the full satisfaction of all, by harping on our acute differences and
>>> rubbing in ad nauseam our past mutual hurts, but only by looking into
>>> the future, holding hands together as dedicated citizens of the nation
>>> and of the world
>>>
>>>> From my listening to Obama's speeches (I've heard the one he gave
>>>
>>> exactly a year ago at the MLK church, and the inaugural speech), this
>>> certainly seems to be a recurring Obama theme - that we should
>>> concentrate on what we have in common to work together, rather than
>>> fighting over differences. Since it recurs so often it would seem
>>> reasonable to say that at the very least it is something he feels
>>> passionately about.
>>>
>>> I noticed, for example from the inaugural speech, that BO acknowledged
>>> the role of non-believers (is this a first?) in saying something like
>>> "We are a nation of Christians and Muslims and Jews and Hindus - and
>>> non-believers" - the implication being that all had something to
>>> offer.
>>>
>>> Maybe that's a bit wishy-washy for some? But I rather liked the
>>> intent to try and avoid the war between science and religion,
>>> believers and non-believers, and start working together.
>>>
>>> Iain
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 12:30 PM, Nucacids <nucacids@wowway.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Let's not abandon critical thinking. For example, Raman writes, "Most
>>>> of
>>>> all, he feels deep in his heart.." How does Raman know what Obama
>>>> feels
>>>> "deep in his heart?" From the way he speaks, one gets the impression
>>>> that
>>>> Raman is a close friend of Obama. Is this true?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> >From "Science and Religion Today":
>>>>>
>>>>> "From all that we have seen and heard and read, Obama is a man of
>>>>> unusual intelligence, insight, and vision. He is a rare combination of
>>>>> idealism and activism, a politician and citizen who considers himself
>>>>> an American first and foremost, rather than an individual with a
>>>>> hyphenated nationality and subgroup loyalties. He is, in the tradition
>>>>> of the country, a man of faith, but also enlightened enough to respect
>>>>> those who find fulfillment beyond his own pews, or in no traditional
>>>>> religion at all. He has his own convictions about traditional
>>>>> morality, but respects those of others in so far as they don't perturb
>>>>> the personal lives of their fellow citizens. Most of all, he feels
>>>>> deep in his heart that our problems can never be solved, let alone to
>>>>> the full satisfaction of all, by harping on our acute differences and
>>>>> rubbing in ad nauseam our past mutual hurts, but only by looking into
>>>>> the future, holding hands together as dedicated citizens of the nation
>>>>> and of the world," says V.V. Raman, an emeritus professor of physics
>>>>> and humanities at the Rochester Institute of Technology, in a note to
>>>>> Science & Religion Today.
>>>>> "Obama is acutely aware of the dangers lurking in the environment as a
>>>>> result of unbridled industrial excesses, and he trusts scientifically
>>>>> informed advisers to recommend steps to curb and eliminate these
>>>>> dangers. He respects science and science education in our schools,
>>>>> relegating visions of a Creator God to places of worship and tradition
>>>>> rather than to biology classes."
>>>>>
>>>>> (Please note: I am from the UK and don't have a political axe to
>>>>> grind, but I thought these observations were encouraging).
>>>>>
>>>>> Iain
>>>>>
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
>> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>
>

--
-----------
Non timeo sed caveo
-----------
To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.