until *both* sides determine that it is in their best interests to coexist with each other not much is going to happen to resolve the situation peaceably ...

And from THAT you derived that I didn't support removal of Israeli settlements from occupied land??

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That gives Israel the option of keeping the settlements does it not?

Not if they want to resolve the conflict peacably, no, it's not an option in my view ...

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All they have to do is decline peaceful co-existence

Er ... not if they want to, um ... coexist ... peacefully ... which is kind of my point. Attitude change. Is this concept really that difficult to grasp?

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Unless of course you're in the States and want a trespasser removed from your land in which case everything is quite straightforward. Black and white, no nuanced complications there because the law has to be upheld whether the jerks like it or not.

Yes. Did you know here in the States, since everything is black-and-white and so clear cut, we don't even have a court system to resolve disputes? Things never get to even a hearing since only one side is always so obviously and so clearly in the wrong that it's just a waste of time ever bothering with a deliberative process -- the police simply cart-off the accused guilty party. No muddling with "complexity" or "nuance" here -- it's really quite straight forward.

The system was invented by the recent President Bush. Huge success. True story.

Yeah but what it if they don't though? What if they prefer perpetual armed conflict in which they have the advantage as the price for hanging on to Palestinian land? 60 years of it so far, shooting their own prime minister, breaking ceasefires, fomenting hate, hmwell it's all beginning to look a little... d'you get my drift?

And apparently it's just as black and white in the ME, since both Israel and Hamas are each absolutely convinced that they are completely right while the other is completely wrong. Israel to Hamas: You are wrong and you must go! Hamas to Israel: You are wrong and you must go! Seems simple enough to me.

Oh, but wait... doesn't that sorta kinda indicate dual complicity? And doesn't it really underscore what's been going on in that region since way before 1948? This mess is as ideological, as emotional, and dammit, as personal as it is legal or illegal! The reason there's been no lasting solution is because of sheer momentum. It's like stopping a two-mile-long freight train within 20 feet.

I really am tired of all the hollow bluster about UN Resolutions and international laws and prosecutions because this mess precedes such civil posturing and rhetoric by so many decades and with so much weight that the law — no matter how important and logical and well-intended — just can't exert enough gravitational pull to cause any lasting results.

It comes down to the momentum of the dispute vs. the inertia of the law. Guess which force will prevail for a long time to come.

Waiting for the cries of "That means you support Israel!" And if my POV demonstrates support for Israel, I can only deduce that those who level that indictment must support Hamas. Hmmmmm... we both feel our positions are correct and the other must be wrong. Something familiar about that...

So you're against the summary execution of terror suspects because you want to see them put on trial?

Yes if they are captured - normally suicide bombers are not - but you can get their leaders for supporting them.

Who said anything about suicide bombers?

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But land annexations are contrary to international law.

We were annexed...

So what? You mean because you were annexed everybody else has to be? You seem to have a rather inflated opinion of US importance - the prohibition of land annexations was decided by the entire world community after WWII.

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Again like I said many times before the UN is a Paper Tiger and does nothing but create even more problems by all these "International Laws" and Mandates and does nothing to enforce it <--- UN should be disbanded immediately and save the planet from a world of hurt.

on the assumption that it's true would you accept that Israel MUST vacate the occupied land without pre-conditions?

NO thats not what I said...

I know - its what you should have said. Alright then - you don't have to give up your garden to baseball playing trespassers but Arabs have to give up their gardens to lawless armed fanatics because the United States has racist policies.

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Your confused with land WON in battle from land that is just occupied

That's your confusion - I've posted the prohibitions often enough, you should try reading them sometime.

I really am tired of all the hollow bluster about UN Resolutions and international laws and prosecutions because this mess precedes such civil posturing and rhetoric by so many decades and with so much weight that the law

Right Steve

km loves to spout out , and the UN does nothing , in fact what have they done so far in this crisis = NOTHING . What will the UN do ? create more mandates and then continue to do nothing to enforce it.

There is one thing that both sides seem to agree on is that there needs to be a 3rd party peace keeping force on the boarders . Arab League seems to be the right choice since the UN does nothing.

There's a reason that the UN doesn't do much . . . it was designed not to do much. If you give five different nations the right to veto any action that the collective will of the global community wants to take, then you're guaranteeing that nothing will get done. So if you really want the UN to become what it might be, a world government, then the first thing that has to happen is to strip away the veto from the super-sovereign nations, the "big five." Of course, none of those nations would accept that move.

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