As of late there has been a rash of deck archetypes designed around putting a creature so powerful into play that an opponent cannot conceivably deal with this single threat. A handful of these decks would be Reanimator, Sneak and Show, and now Hypergenesis. All of these decks take advantage of cards like Reanimate, Exhume, Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, and/or Through the Breach. For those of you that are sick of having your reanimated fatties removed promptly after plopping them into play, or your Emrakuls Gilded Draked away or those of you just sick of playing “fair decks,” I suggest coming to the dark (or darker) side that is Hypergenesis.

The general idea of the Hypergenesis deck is to play the same style game as a Sneak and Show player; yet, at a larger level. Sure you can set your sights on playing one crazy creature from your hand or you could dump a hand full of awesome dudes onto the board. While one of your threats will likely be enough to win the game, this deck lets you completely overwhelm your opponent by putting multiple game-winners into play. This style deck sidesteps the issue faced by Reanimator… graveyard hate. It also outmaneuvers fair decks that try to steal a Sneak and Show players fatty with a Gilded Drake or Sower of Temptation. It also plays a large suite of counter magic to keep its combo safe and its opponents in check.

II. History and Deck Evolution

As a competitive version of this deck is fairly new to the Legacy scene, this section will be rather short. The concept has been around since the printing of the deck’s namesake card Hypergenesis in the 2006 Time Spiral expansion. The concept has been alive longer due to cards like Eureka and Show and Tell. However a few years later, with the printing of cascade cards in the 2009 Alara Reborn expansion such as Violent Outburst, Bloodbraid Elf, and Demonic Dread a convenient means to “cheat” Hypergenesis’s suspend mechanic were now readily available. This was all well and good, but as WotC continued to push the envelope of powerful creatures, crazy and powerful duders such as Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (Rise of the Eldrazi, 2010), Progenitus (Conflux, 2009), and Griselbrand (Avacyn Restored, 2012) were printed. This potentially pushed this deck to a level of playability in competitive events.

Early on in the development of this deck, it played four colors. This was to play the three necessary colors for the cascade spells: green, black, and red… but blue was added as a means to protect the deck’s combo. This meant the deck sometimes durdled due to its shaky manabase.

Then in the 2012 Planchase deck series, a few new cards were released, one of which fits perfectly into the above shell. It had the perfect mana cost for the build and also in the desired colors. Shardless Agent was exactly what this deck needed to get off the ground. It streamlined the mana costs of the deck. It also played into the desired colors (RUG) and allowed for the removal of black. This made the mana base more reliable. So without further ado the deck:

As you can see from these two lists, the choices for giving your team haste have been Maelstrom Wanderer and Akroma’s Memorial. The sideboards also differ slightly but share many of the same cards. I guess that question you have to ask yourself would be is another body more powerful than all of the abilities on the memorial. That would probably change depending upon your specific match up and also your overall metagame.

IV. Card Choices

a.) Manabase - Obliviously this deck is a three color list. But unlike many other tricolored decks out there, it only runs one of each dual land. Also interestingly it runs one of each basic land. Both of these points are to allow flexibility of early game board development, while also keeping it protected versus all of the Wastelands that run rampant in Legacy. Furthermore, you will notice that only 16 lands are played. This is because the deck only needs to hit three mana to function. Once that happens the deck should basically autopilot itself.

b.) Acceleration - This deck also runs 4 Simian Spirit Guide and 4 Elvish Spirit Guide. These allow for exceptionally explosives starts. It is normal for the deck to combo on turn three. However it has the potential to go off on turn one or two. Against most decks out there, this will be too much for them to handle. Also these guys can be dropped right into play after a Hypergenesis to act as additional attackers. Furthermore they are really the only pieces of acceleration that do not get cascaded into. That means they don’t break your chain on the way to Hypergenesis like most other accelerants would.

c.) Cascade Spells - 4 Violent Outburst and 4 Shardless Agent are the general engine for this deck. Some versions also run a few Maelstrom Wanderer, although he is going to be far less consistent than the above two cards. The three mana cascaders guarantee that you cascade until you hit Hypergenesis and then combo off.

d.) Win Conditions - You cast one of your eight, three-mana cascade cards mentioned above, either Violent Outburst or Shardless Agent, which allow you to cascade. The deck is designed to only hit Hypergenesis when you cascade. This is true of both the maindeck and sideboard and is an extremely important consideration when deciding on any card in the 75 (you wouldn’t want to cascade for your win and accidently hit say a Brainstorm or Daze). At that point you can put Emrakul, Griselbrand, and/or Progenitus into play (plus whatever else you want… extra lands, extra spirit guides, and/or your haste condition, etc.). This play should lead to an attack that either wins you the win on the spot or puts you in a position to win in the next few turns.

e.) Protection/Utility - As for protecting this sequence of plays from all of the scary counter magic out there in the Legacy landscape, the deck packs a whopping 8 free “counterspells.” Force of Will is a no-brainer for this format, while the underdog Misdirection also a great piece of protection for this deck. As you can Misdirect a counterspell (say and opposing Force of Will) back at itself, they essentially function as Force of Wills 5-8. This should give you the edge in many counter wars, as you will likely have twice the number of free way to interact with you opponent. You also have spirit guides, which can be ditched to pay for Dazes and Spell Pierces assuming you have enough of them. They can also help protect the deck’s key combo in some special other circumstances.

As a backup you can always just Show and Tell a big dude… that is pretty straightforward and also tends to win games.

Additionally, it is worth mentioning that once you have a Griselbrand on the table, it is very likely that you can draw 7 or 14 cards and then proceed to combo again to either win or just to make your on board position even better.

f.) Sideboard Options - As this deck has just really come onto the scene, the sideboards are early in their construction. I would wager that there are more options for the sideboard but they have yet to be discovered and experimented with. I generally don’t believe in just following a sideboard guide that another person gives you. It detracts from the learning and understanding experience that comes with higher level Magic. Therefore I will outline the cards in the sideboards above. You can make the decision about how to board on your own. However let’s get right to it!

Ingot Chewer is for use against decks that are artifact based (MUD or Affinity) or for the occasional problem artifact like Ensaring Bridge or Trinisphere. These cards can keep your fatties from attacking or tax you extra mana on your cascaded spell. Neither of which is something you want to deal with. Obviously, he can either be evoked, cast, or potentially just Hypergenesised right into play.

Terastodon serves basically the same purpose as Ingot Chewer but gets to do so on a broader scale. For example, if Ingot Chewer is Sneak and Show, then Terastodon is Hypergenesis. It is more powerful and is broader in its applications. The ‘Don can take out pesky non-creature permanents that prevent you from attacking or comboing. That coupled with his ability to nuke land make him particularly dangerous. He can color or straight land lock your opponent or conversely take out your own lands to generate up to 18 power that given the right hand can attack right away. Yet another pretty scary interaction this deck can churn out.

Leyline of Sanctity protects you from a few different angles of attack. First it protects your combo from targeted discard. This keeps you safe from likely the most disruptive means of opposing attack and potentially blanks multiple cards in an opponent’s deck. It also keeps you safe from burn in decks like RUG Delver, U/R Delver, and of course Burn. It can also stave of combos like ANT and TES by protecting you from win condition cards like Tendril of Agony and Grapeshot. This can buy you turns or straight up win you these matches. A fun side note, this deck can still sneak this into play even without the white mana with both Show and Tell and Hypergenesis. So this card is never dead like it is in many other decks that don’t open with it.

Leyline of the Void is this decks only real viable form of graveyard hate. Most decks play Tormod’s Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, Surgical Extraction, among others. These cards all fall into the unplayable “less than 3” mana cost range for this deck. Remember we don’t want to cast a cascader and fail to hit a Hypergenesis and instead hit a piece of graveyard hate. Therefore we are left with Leyline of the Void. This card single-handedly and win games against most of the graveyard based decks in the format. Again note, this deck can still play this even without the black mana with both Show and Tell and Hypergenesis. So this card is never dead like it is in many other decks that don’t open with it.

Dismember is the deck’s choice piece of removal. It is safe from being cascaded into and can be played on the cheap. This would be exceptionally useful against anti-combo cards like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Aethersworn Canonist. The later can be played around with the new Shardless Agent but for cases where you don’t have that guy, removing your opponent’s hate bear seems really good.

V. Reasons to Hypergenesis over other “Unfair Decks”

a.) Sneak and Show - The major reason to play Hypergenesis over Sneak and Show deck would be the advantage of the additional creatures. Players have adapted to the [/cards]Show and Tell[cards]ed Emrakul with cards like Gilded Drake and Sower of Temptation. This means you can combo but still have a good chance at your opponent being prepared for it. With Hypergenesis, you have more options as far as playing multiple creatures, which means you are less likely to just get blown out, due to your opponents sideboard tech. Both decks operate on the same type of clock. Both tend to go off around turn three but can earlier. As far getting trumped by your opponent, since you can play lands and spirit guides, if you put your opponent on having a steal or swap effect… you can lead with these lower impact cards to blank their answers.

b.) Reanimator - Reanimator is likely a turn faster than this deck a fair share of the time, but they only get to pick one creature. [cards]Hypergenesis[cards] can land multiple threats and they can be hasted. So while Reanimator may be faster to combo, they are still likely slower to close the game. Additionally we do not have to worry about all of that graveyard hate that these players would have to deal with post board.

c.) Storm Decks - Here is my argument for ease of play. I love to play storm decks… particularly TES every now and then. Yet, playing a large scale tourney with a deck of that nature is very mentally taxing. Hypergenesis is likely on the same level of speed as most of these decks (ANT and TES are probably about the same while High Tide is likely a turn or maybe two slower), but is much more of an auto-pilot type experience. You hit your cascade spell… find the deck’s key spell, and drop dudes into play. You don’t have to worry about counting much higher than 3 in terms of mana, you don’t have to count your spells, and you don’t have to fret nearly as much about counterspells. You choices as far as counters go are 1) can I counter back? and/or 2) can I try to cascade again next turn? This is assuming your opponent counters your Hypergenesis and not the spell with cascade. These are far simpler questions to ask yourself.

d.) Dredge - This is similar to the analysis to Reanimator. If they don’t have the nuts on turn one (Faithless Looting into the Flashback off of Lion’s Eye Diamond into multiple dredgers with hot dredges), you are likely faster. You also have better mid/late game that should just take theirs out of contention. Again we don’t have to deal with graveyard hate post-board. Dredge can be either slowed or completely stopped by the particular grave-hate card used.

Turn 1: Play Misty Rainforest and pass (fetch at end of turn or during your upkeep depending opposing deck. Target also depends on the likelihood of Wastelands being played).
Turn 2: Play Taiga, pitch Elvish Spirit Guide, tap for UGx and cast Shardless Agent. Cascade into Hypergenesis. Put Emrakul into play. You have Force of Will back up. You likely win in next two turns.

Turn 1: Play Scalding Tarn and Pass.
Turn 2: Draw Forest. Play Island and Pass. Fetch at end of turn providing it is safe.
Turn 3. Play Forest and cast Violent Outburst. Cascade into Hypergenesis. Put Griselbrand into play. Draw 7 or 14 cards. Potentially combo again. If you can’t discard the Hypergenesis and an Emrakul and shuffle them back into your deck for another go next turn.

I would likely mulligan. You need to hit back to back land or mana sources. Otherwise this hand does nothing. I would go back but if you are on the draw and/or playing against a slow deck it might be doable.

Nice read. I have been playing the hypergenesis deck for a while now. sample hand c.) where you have 2 hypergenesis in hand is not an auto-mulligan. If you are playing against a fair deck. you can 1st or 2nd turn suspend the hypergenesis, and 3 turns later drop emrakul and hopefully some other friends (from the draws). The worst hand possible, are the ones with no mana producers.

Sturtzilla

06-29-2012, 08:19 AM

Fair enough. It does seem fairly poor to me, but I guess against some decks, suspending might be a decent way to go. And yes, hands with no mana sources are pretty bad. Thanks for reading and your input!

TerribleTim68

06-29-2012, 01:19 PM

I'm still wondering why the Violent Outburst over Ardent Plea? The Plea is another blue card you can pitch to Force of Will or Misdirection. Is there something I'm missing?

rxavage

06-29-2012, 01:40 PM

I'm still wondering why the Violent Outburst over Ardent Plea? The Plea is another blue card you can pitch to Force of Will or Misdirection. Is there something I'm missing?

It allows for a 3 colour mana-base R/U/G which is much better. Here's a quote from the primer:

"Then in the 2012 Planchase deck series, a few new cards were released, one of which fits perfectly into the above shell. It had the perfect mana cost for the build and also in the desired colors. Shardless Agent was exactly what this deck needed to get off the ground. It streamlined the mana costs of the deck. It also played into the desired colors (RUG) and allowed for the removal of black. This made the mana base more reliable."

Sturtzilla

06-29-2012, 02:21 PM

I'm still wondering why the Violent Outburst over Ardent Plea? The Plea is another blue card you can pitch to Force of Will or Misdirection. Is there something I'm missing?

Violent Outburst plays better with the green and red mana that can be produced by both spirit guides. Ardent Plea can be pitched to Force of Will or Misdirection, but is marginally more difficult to accelerate into due to its white mana requirement and the lack of a white spirit guide. So I guess you could run Ardent Plea in place of Violent Outburst to have more FoW fodder at the cost of some speed. Ardent Plea and Violent Outburst both are more used as enablers rather than what the actual spell itself does. They are the spark that lets you Cascade into your Hypergenesis. Essentially, you are paying 3 to drop your fatties into play, not necessarily for the +1/+0 or the Exalted.

UnsungHero

06-29-2012, 02:32 PM

Also Violent Outburst/RUG Version is much better because both of the Spirit Guides have Colors in the RUG Cascade cards, where the W version does not. Also If you are playing with Maelstrom Wanderer, the +1/+0 ability is much better than Pleas exalted Ability, giving a few hasted dudes a very small boost (not that it matters too much). Also with Rug you can run some cheap artifact hate (Ingot Chewer) for things like Ensnaring Bridge.

Only thing that the W version gives you is 4 additional cards to pitch to Force/Misdirection. One of the spirit guides then becomes worthless making going off much slower due to always needing a plains/tundra to go off.

(Strutzilla beat me to it)

TerribleTim68

06-29-2012, 03:03 PM

Ok, there it is, that's what I overlooked. The Violent Outburst is the color of your accelerators, which takes precedence in this case. Thanks guys!

herbig

06-30-2012, 11:00 AM

Much more important than anything these other folks have said is that Violent Outburst is an instant, so you can cast it end of turn into a counterspell, then untap and cast another cascade spell.

MeddlingMageGR

07-01-2012, 05:28 AM

I have some questions.
First of all, I must admit that I have tested this deck only in MagicWorkStation for around 100 games, and not in real life. I missed some cards. And in MWS the results are dramatically bad. 16 lands cost me many many mulligans, to 5 or 4 cards until I resign. Maybe in real life I'll have other results... So, from your experience, 16 lands, is a number you can trust ? Compared to other Hypergenesis decklist I found in TC Decks, most of them play 19!!!

Question 2 : I believe that the major problem of this deck is the "deck manipulation". You cant search for anything, because -almost- all the searchers & drawers cost less than 3 mana, and as you know there is a conflict here with Hypergenesis. So, how do you react when you have missing combo parts in your hand? (especially the Cascade spells, that are only 8 ) or when you have nothing good in your opening 7 ? Have you lost many games because of this ? I just remind that Intuition or Gifts Ungiven or Thirst for Knowledge could deserve a slot in there.

Question 3 : Ok, we have no searchers here, but we have Griselbrand. A great great draw-engine. But you have to pay 7 lives.... mmm... why dont you try it for free? You prefer and you spent a slot for Akroma's Memorial which is a great card, Todd Andersson prefers Maelstrom Wanderer because its blue and can pitched to FoW, I say... Why not Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur ? He is blue, IF survives he gives you 7 for free, and can really destroy your opponent. I believe both Akroma's and Maelstrom are very weak if its the only heavy creature-target in your hand, for Show and Tell or a Cascade spell. But Jin-Gitaxias? Yes I would play Show and tell just for him. I follow the steps of Reanimator.
If i had to play Maelstrom or Akroma's Memorial, I would definitely play Rune-Scarred Demon. Putting 1 into play with Hypergenesis, causes to put all 4 copies, and as final creature the Maelstrom for attack.

Question 4 : Why all the 8 Spirits ? Spirits are good only if you have ALL the combo parts in your hand : 1 cascade spell, and at least 1 heavy Creature. If you don't, its a dead card. How many times Spirits have stucked in your hands ? I understand the speed they give, because I have won many times, but... do you really want to play with possibilities? Or built something more reliable ?

My final thought is that if you want to play Hypergenesis, you must be a lucky person generally. This deck is 100% LUCK. Your starting hand decides if you win or lose, and you cant do nothing to change your fate.

Hopo

07-01-2012, 08:16 AM

Question 3 : Ok, we have no searchers here, but we have Griselbrand. A great great draw-engine. But you have to pay 7 lives.... mmm... why dont you try it for free? You prefer and you spent a slot for Akroma's Memorial which is a great card, Todd Andersson prefers Maelstrom Wanderer because its blue and can pitched to FoW, I say... Why not Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur ? He is blue, IF survives he gives you 7 for free, and can really destroy your opponent. I believe both Akroma's and Maelstrom are very weak if its the only heavy creature-target in your hand, for Show and Tell or a Cascade spell. But Jin-Gitaxias? Yes I would play Show and tell just for him. I follow the steps of Reanimator.
If i had to play Maelstrom or Akroma's Memorial, I would definitely play Rune-Scarred Demon. Putting 1 into play with Hypergenesis, causes to put all 4 copies, and as final creature the Maelstrom for attack.

You should clarify the rules of the game to yourself. The demon interaction you described is plain wrong.

Jin-gitaxias was a good creature before Griselbrand was printed. It is not a clock, doesn't necessarily draw anything and dies to almost everything. You need to play scary monsters.

In my opinion the best haste enabler is Flame-kin zealot, as it ensures that you get haste. Wanderer looks really shitty.

bernson

07-01-2012, 11:33 AM

I have some questions.
First of all, I must admit that I have tested this deck only in MagicWorkStation for around 100 games, and not in real life. I missed some cards. And in MWS the results are dramatically bad. 16 lands cost me many many mulligans, to 5 or 4 cards until I resign. Maybe in real life I'll have other results... So, from your experience, 16 lands, is a number you can trust ? Compared to other Hypergenesis decklist I found in TC Decks, most of them play 19!!!
It's your style of play that dictates how many mana producers you want in the deck. but based on my preference, I think 16 lands and 8 spirit guides allow the deck to run smooth without being flooded or droughted.

Question 2 : I believe that the major problem of this deck is the "deck manipulation". You cant search for anything, because -almost- all the searchers & drawers cost less than 3 mana, and as you know there is a conflict here with Hypergenesis. So, how do you react when you have missing combo parts in your hand? (especially the Cascade spells, that are only 8 ) or when you have nothing good in your opening 7 ? Have you lost many games because of this ? I just remind that Intuition or Gifts Ungiven or Thirst for Knowledge could deserve a slot in there.
I think the deck does not need any deck manipulation at all since it is pretty redundant. All you need is one monster (1 out of 12-14), one cascade spell or show and tell (1 out of 12) and you are pretty much good to go. I see each opening hand as a puzzle. you want 3 mana producers, one monster, and one cascade/show and tell. basically with muligans, if 3 pieces of the puzzle is missing you ship back your hand. If 2 pieces of the puzzle is missing you ship your hand. If one piece of the puzzle is missing, do a little math and probability. I usally keep, since the deck is redundant enough to draw for answer and improve you chances.

Question 3 : Ok, we have no searchers here, but we have Griselbrand. A great great draw-engine. But you have to pay 7 lives.... mmm... why dont you try it for free? You prefer and you spent a slot for Akroma's Memorial which is a great card, Todd Andersson prefers Maelstrom Wanderer because its blue and can pitched to FoW, I say... Why not Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur ? He is blue, IF survives he gives you 7 for free, and can really destroy your opponent. I believe both Akroma's and Maelstrom are very weak if its the only heavy creature-target in your hand, for Show and Tell or a Cascade spell. But Jin-Gitaxias? Yes I would play Show and tell just for him. I follow the steps of Reanimator.
If i had to play Maelstrom or Akroma's Memorial, I would definitely play Rune-Scarred Demon. Putting 1 into play with Hypergenesis, causes to put all 4 copies, and as final creature the Maelstrom for attack.
Jin-Gitaxias is nice altho, somewhat weeker than griselbrand. It can be killed on the spot, while griselbrand can in respose draw 7 and protect itself.
Runes-Scarred Demon triggers after hypergenesis resloves thus allowing to tutor for another one, but not being able to put it in play.

Question 4 : Why all the 8 Spirits ? Spirits are good only if you have ALL the combo parts in your hand : 1 cascade spell, and at least 1 heavy Creature. If you don't, its a dead card. How many times Spirits have stucked in your hands ? I understand the speed they give, because I have won many times, but... do you really want to play with possibilities? Or built something more reliable ?
the 8 spirits are used for speed, you can combo out 1st or 2nd turn. don't forget you can hypergenesis them in play as well and use them as attackers or chump blockers.

My final thought is that if you want to play Hypergenesis, you must be a lucky person generally. This deck is 100% LUCK. Your starting hand decides if you win or lose, and you cant do nothing to change your fate.

yes luck plays a factor, a little math and common sense goes a long way as well. you can also catch a lot of people of guard, if they don't know how to play against this type of deck. The reason it does well right now, because it beats rug delver, sneak and show and most blue based deck. It has tough match up against Maverick.

MeddlingMageGR

07-01-2012, 06:06 PM

You should clarify the rules of the game to yourself. The demon interaction you described is plain wrong.

Jin-gitaxias was a good creature before Griselbrand was printed. It is not a clock, doesn't necessarily draw anything and dies to almost everything. You need to play scary monsters.

In my opinion the best haste enabler is Flame-kin zealot, as it ensures that you get haste. Wanderer looks really shitty.

You are correct. Demon's triggered ability cannot resolve when he comes into play from Hypergenesis. I also agree that Flame-Kin Zealot is better than Wanderer. But as for your second comment, I didnt compare Jin-Gitaxias with Griselbrand. I understand the superiority of Gris. I was speaking about the 2 last creature spots, beyond the 4 Griselbrand, 4 Emrakuls, and 4 Progenitus. Todd plays the crappy Wanderer. The chick plays Akroma's Memorial. Both are failure. Because noone will play them with Show and Tell. So I thought about Gitaxias. Both Gitaxias and any other creature in his place (beyond the 12 known creatures I said before), have the same possibilities to get a Sword or any other removal. BUT If he survives (that's we have Force of Will) opponent loses his hand and the game, and you get 7 cards. Its far far more dangerous than Wanderer and Memorial. Plus, its blue.

Sturtzilla

07-01-2012, 09:15 PM

First of all, I must admit that I have tested this deck only in MagicWorkStation for around 100 games, and not in real life. I missed some cards. And in MWS the results are dramatically bad. 16 lands cost me many many mulligans, to 5 or 4 cards until I resign. Maybe in real life I'll have other results... So, from your experience, 16 lands, is a number you can trust ? Compared to other Hypergenesis decklist I found in TC Decks, most of them play 19!!!

Well in my experience it seems to work out pretty well. Having 16 land and all 8 spirit guides generally is enough. You don't need to hit more than three mana really. Sure extra helps to pay for Daze and Spell Pierce, but drawing lands is drawing dead in many match ups. Plus you have your own counter magic to deal with those. You say you are missing cards on MWS... which ones are you missing? I would expect that if you are missing the wrong ones it could really hurt the deck and its performance.

Question 2 : I believe that the major problem of this deck is the "deck manipulation". You cant search for anything, because -almost- all the searchers & drawers cost less than 3 mana, and as you know there is a conflict here with Hypergenesis. So, how do you react when you have missing combo parts in your hand? (especially the Cascade spells, that are only 8 ) or when you have nothing good in your opening 7 ? Have you lost many games because of this ? I just remind that Intuition or Gifts Ungiven or Thirst for Knowledge could deserve a slot in there.

With eight cards in the maindeck that cause the combo to occur you have fairly decent odds of having what you need in your opener. I fully understand where you are coming from. I wouldn't write off Intuition as a possibility for this deck. It could help you fix poor draws, help fight through heavy counter magic, and even make Hypergenesis better in certain circumstances by cherry picking the right guy. I think your other suggestions are fairly poor. Intuition, however, might be a card to do some testing with.

Question 3 : Ok, we have no searchers here, but we have Griselbrand. A great great draw-engine. But you have to pay 7 lives.... mmm... why dont you try it for free? You prefer and you spent a slot for Akroma's Memorial which is a great card, Todd Andersson prefers Maelstrom Wanderer because its blue and can pitched to FoW, I say... Why not Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur ? He is blue, IF survives he gives you 7 for free, and can really destroy your opponent. I believe both Akroma's and Maelstrom are very weak if its the only heavy creature-target in your hand, for Show and Tell or a Cascade spell. But Jin-Gitaxias? Yes I would play Show and tell just for him. I follow the steps of Reanimator.

As stated above, Jin dies to nearly every kind of removal in the format and doesn't ensure that you get to draw cards. Furthermore, he doesn't apply much of a clock to your opponent. He doesn't give haste, which is really what is in question here. The cards you are suggesting are bad are in the deck to give haste. This allows for a Hypergenesis into an instant attack/kill. Honestly, these cards might be more "win-more" and cute than actually necessary. How often is an opponent going to be able to race/answer a turn 1-3 Emrakul, Griselbrand, and/or Progenitus? It seems really unlikely. I could potentially get behind removing the Haste condition. It really reminds me of the 1-of Grapeshot in certain Storm decks sideboards. It is very rarely needed and more often included for showboating or just being demoralizing. Hell, these two slots could become Intuitions to add consistency. I am interested to hear what others think on this point.

Question 4 : Why all the 8 Spirits ? Spirits are good only if you have ALL the combo parts in your hand : 1 cascade spell, and at least 1 heavy Creature. If you don't, its a dead card. How many times Spirits have stucked in your hands ? I understand the speed they give, because I have won many times, but... do you really want to play with possibilities? Or built something more reliable?

The likelihood of have one heavy creature (12/60) and one cascade spell (8/60) is basically that of any of the other two-card combo decks in the format (see Reanimator or Sneak and Show). Casting turn one Hypergenesis seems really good to me, so yes I want Spirit Guides. They are, as far as I know, they only/best way to do it... plus as stated in the Primer, they are never totally dead. You can use them as bears when Hypergenesis resolves.

My final thought is that if you want to play Hypergenesis, you must be a lucky person generally. This deck is 100% LUCK. Your starting hand decides if you win or lose, and you cant do nothing to change your fate.

This is not true at all. A little math and forethought can allow you to win loads of games. Sure it might be more luck based than some decks but that is sometimes how these function. Do you have to be lucky to play Storm? Maybe... knowing how it works helps a lot. Do you have to be lucky to Belcher? Probably... you are stone dead to FoW game one most of the time. How about decks with Delver? You can't always upkeep Brainstorm. My point is that all decks might have ome luck factor associated with them. If you know your deck and how your opponent's works, then you are way better off. Thus, luck will have less to do with it.

MeddlingMageGR

07-02-2012, 12:36 AM

I can not disagree in nothing of these you state. All seems to be, and are, logical. But, in tournaments you ll never know what you're gonna face. And as you say, you must know your deck and your opponent too. My only "objection" is about the 2 slots, I mean between giving haste and Jin-Gitaxias.
Even if we do not play any Haste-giving cards, you still can give "haste" to them, by using Violent Outburst and your opponent's EOT. Cascade and Hypergenesis resolves at EOT, you put any of your monsters in game, and "gg" in your next turn. With the same way, you can play Jin-Gitaxias too. So his ability for opponent's maximum hand size resolves first. In the first 1-2 turns the most likely is your opponent to be tapped out. Holding back some countermagic for secure.
Lets face a Black Discard deck. You play first, a land. He plays second, Swamp > Thoughtseize. He probably have in hand Duress, or Vindicate or Small/Pox or Liliana. In responce of Thoughtseize, discard 2 Spirit Guides, Violent Outburst > Jin in game. He loses his hand, he is tapped out, and you get 7 new cards for free.

Ok, it doesn't matter. Maybe its me that I think more defensively. Maybe you're right and play 2 Intuition instead. All the choices have to give something.

Whippoorwill

07-02-2012, 04:45 AM

Quick response since I'm going to sleep soon.

Question 4 : Why all the 8 Spirits ? Spirits are good only if you have ALL the combo parts in your hand : 1 cascade spell, and at least 1 heavy Creature. If you don't, its a dead card. How many times Spirits have stucked in your hands ? I understand the speed they give, because I have won many times, but... do you really want to play with possibilities? Or built something more reliable ?

I played Hypergenesis at SCG Seattle and went 5-3. 2 of my game wins were largely in part to those "dead" cards. I'll type up a report in the next few days.

I have a question to all about the mana base of this deck. How important is the basic mountain in this deck? From my testing it seems to be the worse land and I never want to see it. I have replaced it with a 2nd tropical island. The deck has 8 cards that require blue and green and only 4 that require red. Since red and green both have spirit guides I wanted to make sure I am able to find my blue source. In turn I have also changed the fetches to 4 scalding tarn and 2 wooded foothills to make fetching the basic island easier.

I know this change is minimal but I just wanted to see what people thought about it. I am trying to tweak this deck so I can play it at SCG Stl this weekend.

TerribleTim68

07-12-2012, 07:28 PM

The 3 basics are to get around Wasteland. :wink:

Sturtzilla

07-13-2012, 10:20 PM

That change is probably fine but having no basic red source may put you occasionally in some uncomfortable positions.

Jigga_Tech

07-14-2012, 11:04 AM

I guess I can see your guys point about having the basic mountain. Being able to dodge wasteland is huge. Its nice to be able to fetch out 3 lands that are non wastelandable. Maybe I will just leave the mana base as is. It must have been designed that way for a reason. I just hate those hands with no blue sources but I guess that is what mulligans are for. I might try and stick with more scalding tarns though.

TheyCallMeTim

07-16-2012, 02:35 PM

Any more thoughts on Intuition? It seems to be a pretty decent suggestion and I frequently wonder how often 2x Maelstrom Wanderer is relevant. Let me start the discussion by noting Intuition into Emrakul shuffles in any Hypergenesis that may be in your yard...

Sturtzilla

07-23-2012, 01:59 PM

Any more thoughts on Intuition? It seems to be a pretty decent suggestion and I frequently wonder how often 2x Maelstrom Wanderer is relevant. Let me start the discussion by noting Intuition into Emrakul shuffles in any Hypergenesis that may be in your yard...

I think that it is a possibility that could be explored further. However, I have not been spending any time on this deck currently. I have been running pretty hot on locals with RUG Tempo. This month I have won twice and took second once. So in my mind there is no reason to change up the situation. But on to actual discussion, Intuition can allow you to cherry pick the piece of the combo you need, or another fatty to make your position more powerful, it can find permission to force the combo through, or even, if necessary, can allow you to dump some Emrakuls to shuffle your graveyard back into your deck. I think the loosing haste might be worth adding resilience and consistency. That is my opinion, although I have done no testing on the topic.

That list made 14th at GP Ghent the past weekend. I am really starting to love the deck. :-)

TheyCallMeTim

07-24-2012, 11:46 AM

That is my opinion, although I have done no testing on the topic.

I haven't either, currently acquiring my set of Show and Tell, which seems might be harder after this past weekend. I turn to the experienced pilots of this deck to shed light on the practicality of Maelstrom Wanderer. And perhaps the changes that made up the top 16 build from Ghent...

Mackan

10-22-2012, 07:42 AM

what about Chancellor of the Tangle or Chancellor of the annex? The first as extra spirit guides more than actual fat. The second as a way to "interact" against discard/counters....The bodies are not something that will kill your opponent in a swing, but they provide value and hopefully you will drop something else anyway.

Sturtzilla

10-22-2012, 09:55 AM

what about Chancellor of the Tangle or Chancellor of the annex? The first as extra spirit guides more than actual fat. The second as a way to "interact" against discard/counters....The bodies are not something that will kill your opponent in a swing, but they provide value and hopefully you will drop something else anyway.

I don't really see either of these creatures making too much of an impact on what the deck is already trying to do. Chancellor of the Tangle only really helps if we are going to go off on turn one. The deck can already do this. Moreover, going off turn one seems a little greedy to me. We would be sacrificing late game power for a bit of speed. I would rather have the late game. Chancellor of the Annex might be worth messing around with. It slows down your opponent by essentially time walking them on turn one, then when in play, mana tithes them for every spell they play. It might be worth a shot. There are a few flex slots in the deck. So if your meta is very combo heavy Chancellor of the Annex might be a good way to go.

Mackan

10-23-2012, 05:43 AM

The chancellors are more cute than good... I realized I want something more powerful as a Show and tell target.

I've been thinking about warstome surge and permanent which gives haste. I don't really like them for beeing "dead draws" and not really makes you win on the spot. Michael Jacob played Omniscience in his list and this gives psedouhaste and a likely win if you have griselbrand or emrakul in hand. It's also great with the 8 free counters... Plus, against some decks you can draw 14 cards and play a bunch of spirit guides for extra beats:)

I like my maindeckcreatures "immune" to swords to plowshares and I don't think we need something like terastodon/angel of despair/iona/elesh-norn in main. This deck wants to be proactive and counter the few relevant spells your opponent might have rather than interact with the creatures above.

Im thinking about the invasion sac-lands. They add some punch for the t2-kill but I think a good manabase is more valuable.

slave

10-29-2012, 08:43 PM

Have any of you tried Worldspine Wurm here?
I realise it doesn't help you use the legend rule to kill your opponents' creatures, but you can cast more than one Worldspine.

Sturtzilla

10-31-2012, 09:32 AM

Have any of you tried Worldspine Wurm here?

I could see it in the decks flex slots. Although I am not sure how another fatty versus a hasted team really matches up. I am guessing that basically give you opponent 1-2 extra turns by playing the Wurm over a Haste card. Whether that matters probably depends on the strength of your hand. 15/15 with trample is tempting but do remember if he gets StPed or Pathed you don't get much out of it. Then again that can be said about some of the bros that give your team Haste. So I think it is probably a meta call. It does have the potential to just be a blow out.

teonsw

01-07-2013, 12:30 PM

How viable is this deck in the current metagame? I find it to be really interesting yet blue decks and target discard seem to be quite a pain. Maverick seemed about 50/50 esper stone blade seemed to be the worst match up. Just wondering if anyone is currently playing this deck.

nodahero

01-13-2013, 11:43 PM

How viable is this deck in the current metagame? I find it to be really interesting yet blue decks and target discard seem to be quite a pain. Maverick seemed about 50/50 esper stone blade seemed to be the worst match up. Just wondering if anyone is currently playing this deck.

I am considering playing this for the upcomming SCG open in Milwaukee and honestly it doesn't seem that bad. Blue is lower then usual and Jund is up... both of which make this deck seem solid... question is this or Belcher...

I like this over belcher because you need less to go off. Thoughts?

Lejay

01-14-2013, 12:32 AM

question is this or Belcher...
Why are you even playing magic ?

Sturtzilla

01-14-2013, 09:47 AM

I like this over belcher because you need less to go off. Thoughts?

I think the question comes down to whether or not you want to play interactive magic. This deck typically uses its counter magic (Force of Will and Misdirection) to protect the combo, namely ensuring that Hypergenesis or Show and Tell resolve in an offensive fashion. Typically this will win you the game. However these pieces of protection also allow you to play more reactively to keep an opponent from doing something threatening.

On the other end of the spectrum, you could play Belcher, and just jam your combo and hope your opponent doesn't have counter magic or answers. If you are really good, you might even be able to sculpt hands where you can play through some or all of an opponent's counter magic or other interaction. I have seen many players run Belcher and the later option happens very rarely.

My opinion, given the two above options, would be to run Hypergenesis. It is more resilient to a single counter spell, requires fewer pieces to combo (making it more resilient to certain discard effects, and it can win just as quickly (Hypergenesis is probably a turn or two slower on average). This is a question of playstlyes. I prefer to have to option to counter spells that disrupt my game plan. Hypergenesis lets you do this, while Belcher does not. I hope that helped.

nodahero

01-15-2013, 12:33 AM

I have a ton of expierence playing nearly every iteration of Storm but I havn't played legacy in so long that I am betting I am super rusty and am looking for a more straight forward combo deck. I can play this, belcher, or Omniscience.

I think this or omniscience is prolly more my style as I do not like going in blind hence why I play storm.

Thoughts on that logic. Also any preference or ideas about this versus omniscience?

Thanks

Sturtzilla

01-15-2013, 03:20 PM

That is probably a personal choice or play style call. This deck is probably faster most of the time but it doesn't have the secondary means to win in Omniscience into Petals of Insight into a wished Storm Card.

nodahero

01-17-2013, 12:46 PM

Another question if you would: It occurs to me that this deck and Sneak and Show have very similar game plans i.e. cheat stuff in fast and win... My question is--- beyond that what am I missing? I don't think the haste/one shot is better then casting genesis and missing one attack to not lose the creature; particularly when it seems to me Genesis is typically a faster combo off.

To some degree I thought it was protection/redundancy but from a secondary review that seems inaccurate.

Sturtzilla

01-17-2013, 03:19 PM

Another question if you would: It occurs to me that this deck and Sneak and Show have very similar game plans i.e. cheat stuff in fast and win... My question is--- beyond that what am I missing? I don't think the haste/one shot is better then casting genesis and missing one attack to not lose the creature; particularly when it seems to me Genesis is typically a faster combo off.

To some degree I thought it was protection/redundancy but from a secondary review that seems inaccurate.

Your question is kind of difficult to field as there are many flavors of Sneak and Show. There are creature oriented Sneak and Show decks, Omnishow, and various hybrids of the two. Counter packages and wishboards also vary based upon which specific deck you are considering. Sneak and Show decks can Show and Tell the fatty into play early and keep it around for multiple turns. Alternatively, they can Show and Tell Omniscience into play and kill you by casting and recasting Petals of Insight until they find a Storm card or use a tutor to get one from their deck or sideboard. Hypergenesis should typically be faster; however, you are all in on the creature plan. Omnishow gives you some more avenues as far as win conditions but gives the deck a less potent focus and can slow it down.

teonsw

01-18-2013, 01:03 PM

I am putting this deck together for a tournament this weekend. Im running the Todd / Katilin list with one Akromas Memorial and one Maelstrom Wanderer. Ill post how i do on sunday.

Sturtzilla

01-18-2013, 02:18 PM

Sounds great! I am excited to hear how it goes for you!

teonsw

01-19-2013, 08:38 PM

Ended up playing at Jupiter placing 5th overall winning a set of savanahs, report to come tomorrow.

Great job! Nice read too! I have to agree with the comment about using a FoW on a 3 damage burn spell. Typically, if you need to cast a FoW to counter a burn spell it really should be a workhorse like Price of Progress, Flame Rift, or Fireblast or when you are forced to because you are low on life. It doesn't sound like this was that big of a concern as you were able to come back. Sideboards really just make Burn a lower tier deck. Anyway congrats again on the finish! Do you have any outstanding thoughts on your configuration and/or sideboard? Any tweaks you would make if you were to play it again?

teonsw

01-22-2013, 04:35 PM

Great job! Nice read too! I have to agree with the comment about using a FoW on a 3 damage burn spell. Typically, if you need to cast a FoW to counter a burn spell it really should be a workhorse like Price of Progress, Flame Rift, or Fireblast or when you are forced to because you are low on life. It doesn't sound like this was that big of a concern as you were able to come back. Sideboards really just make Burn a lower tier deck. Anyway congrats again on the finish! Do you have any outstanding thoughts on your configuration and/or sideboard? Any tweaks you would make if you were to play it again?

I personally feel like the side board was fine i only sided into ley lines of sanctity for most games and into of the void for one round. Terastodon was brought in against UW blade to remove karakas. The only match up that i was totally dreading was 12 post because of how much we give them with a hypergenesis if our emrakul isn't hasted. Luckily i avoided that match up and for that i think terastodon would have been an mvp. The deck seems to run like a well oiled machine that just gets there.

teonsw

01-28-2013, 09:51 AM

Random thing that i was thinking about, I chose to run both 1 Maelstrom Wanderer and 1 Akroma's Memorial for the reason in testing, whenever i stuck a wanderer and a fatty against certain decks the wanderer would get swords'd. I like being able to pitch it to FoW but it Is slightly worse then Akroma's Memorial once they hit the battlefield.

Sturtzilla

02-15-2013, 11:58 AM

Random thing that i was thinking about, I chose to run both 1 Maelstrom Wanderer and 1 Akroma's Memorial for the reason in testing, whenever i stuck a wanderer and a fatty against certain decks the wanderer would get swords'd. I like being able to pitch it to FoW but it Is slightly worse then Akroma's Memorial once they hit the battlefield.

That sounds reasonable. Your opponent is likely going to try to survive a turn or or try to sneak out an extra draw. Would you keep the split or move to one option over the other?

Mr. Safety

02-16-2013, 07:17 PM

I am starting to get into this deck, but not in the traditional sense. I'm not using Show and Tell and I'm relying on Chancellors for additional acceleration/protection. I have found Chancellor of the Annex to be really good, especially against blue decks in theory. Chancellor of the Tangle also allows for a lot more turn 1 combos, which can be impressive given Annex protection. Rather than go for Force of Will protection, I'm more planning on landing a draw-7 of some sort (Jin, Grisel.)

I would appreciate any comments or help. I have Force of Will available, but not Show and Tell. I have found, in my short amount of testing, that it has been really good to have some sort of combination of fatties rather than simply getting one Emrakul/Griselbrand/Progenitus. In my tiny brain, this is the reason for playing Hypergenesis over a traditional Show and Tell/Sneak Attack setup. Any help is appreciated.

Sturtzilla

02-17-2013, 11:08 AM

I am starting to get into this deck, but not in the traditional sense. I'm not using Show and Tell and I'm relying on Chancellors for additional acceleration/protection. I have found Chancellor of the Annex to be really good, especially against blue decks in theory. Chancellor of the Tangle also allows for a lot more turn 1 combos, which can be impressive given Annex protection. Rather than go for Force of Will protection, I'm more planning on landing a draw-7 of some sort (Jin, Grisel.)

I would appreciate any comments or help. I have Force of Will available, but not Show and Tell. I have found, in my short amount of testing, that it has been really good to have some sort of combination of fatties rather than simply getting one Emrakul/Griselbrand/Progenitus. In my tiny brain, this is the reason for playing Hypergenesis over a traditional Show and Tell/Sneak Attack setup. Any help is appreciated.

I have a few initial thoughts about the list that you have posted. The first would be that you have significantly reduced the potency of the deck by reducing the major threats; those being Emrakul, Griselbrand, and Progenitus. While you have filled in some of the gaps with other threats, these would likely be subpar in most match ups. I could entertain possibly adding some of these threats to the sideboard for specific match ups.

Second, Chancellor of the Annex does not protect your combo in the same sense that Force of Will and Misdirection do. Chancellor only really slows down your opponent's first spell. FoW and Misdirection are ideal because they allow you to counter the actual spells that would screw up the combo. The list you have proposed has no real way to protect the combo from the actual counter spells that define this format.

Show and Tell is pretty necessary as a turn 1-3 threat; more specifically, Emrakul, Projenitus, or Griselbrand just wins games. I am not sure that is the case with some of the threats you have added to the list.

Finally, your proposed mana base is horrifically vulnerable to Wasteland. Wasteland is a popular card in Legacy. I am not convinced that this manabase will even be consistent if you are lucky enough to get non-Wasteland match up. I am of the opinion that these changes are probably not for the best. You might be able to get somewhere at locals with this list if you are lucky. I wouldn't take this to a large tournament.

Mr. Safety

02-17-2013, 12:44 PM

The combo is more designed to happen turn 1, with turn 2 being the 'backup plan.' It happens quite often with Tangle mana. The mana base rough against Wasteland...but I figured fetches into dual lands wouldn't be any less susceptible. I'm banking on raw speed, basically hoping to use Annex taxing to protect a turn 1 combo, or to slow down opponent's by a turn so I can combo off Irrigation ditch turn 2.

It isn't a matter of whether or not I can combo into lethal damage on turn 1-2, that happens quite often. I'm working towards a full set of Emrakul for sure, and maybe even the 4th Griselbrand. What I lose in Show and Tell I gain back by playing a full 12 cascade spells.

Anyways, I'm not arguing, just trying to tell you where I'm coming from. I'm not new to legacy at all, just used to playing my own Wastelands in The Rock. This is a pet project of mine.

Sturtzilla

02-17-2013, 06:56 PM

The combo is more designed to happen turn 1, with turn 2 being the 'backup plan.' It happens quite often with Tangle mana. The mana base rough against Wasteland...but I figured fetches into dual lands wouldn't be any less susceptible. I'm banking on raw speed, basically hoping to use Annex taxing to protect a turn 1 combo, or to slow down opponent's by a turn so I can combo off Irrigation ditch turn 2.

I will agree that using Chancellor mana and countering to go off on turn one could be very good. The problem is that if you don't have exactly the right combination of cards for use on your first turn, you lose a almost all of your resiliency. As for your mana base, I am still not sold. If you look at the versions of this decks that have put up winning results, you will notice that there is one of each basic land and one of each dual. So the original version of this deck might have to worry about Stifle in some situations, but can dodge Wasteland just fine.

It isn't a matter of whether or not I can combo into lethal damage on turn 1-2, that happens quite often. I'm working towards a full set of Emrakul for sure, and maybe even the 4th Griselbrand. What I lose in Show and Tell I gain back by playing a full 12 cascade spells.

"Quite often" is a fluffy, i.e. qualitative, while not quantitative, statement. Can you give us a idea of how often this actually happens when goldfishing or in actual games? That would be a lot more helpful.

Mr. Safety

02-18-2013, 07:26 AM

"Quite often" is a fluffy, i.e. qualitative, while not quantitative, statement. Can you give us a idea of how often this actually happens when goldfishing or in actual games? That would be a lot more helpful.

I agree...didn't mean to be fluffy. Still in the testing phase, but so far I'm getting a turn 1 combo with Chancellor protection about 10% of the time. Not stellar by any means. Turn 1 combo happens about 35% of the time, but not always with Annex protection.

I can definately work in the Forces maindeck, but I still don't have Show and Tell. Thoughts on how to do this without S&T?

Sturtzilla

02-18-2013, 09:36 AM

I agree...didn't mean to be fluffy. Still in the testing phase, but so far I'm getting a turn 1 combo with Chancellor protection about 10% of the time. Not stellar by any means. Turn 1 combo happens about 35% of the time, but not always with Annex protection.

I can definately work in the Forces maindeck, but I still don't have Show and Tell. Thoughts on how to do this without S&T?

So this configuration is basically a less consistent version of Belcher that doesn't immediately kill the opponent. I Still think some work needs to be done on the list. I am not a fan of the lack of combo protection and the awkward mana base. I think you should work on honing it in a bit more, then play some events with it, then let us know how they went.

Mr. Safety

02-18-2013, 04:37 PM

Fair enough, I'll let you know.

teonsw

02-19-2013, 11:53 AM

I've been doing fairly well with this deck, and have come across many situations in which I have fetched for basic lands due to wasteland being a prominent factor in our format. I feel as if going in balls to the walls turn one is cool and all if you have the chancellor to ramp you. But if they have a force do you just sit there for a bunch of turns till you can do it again? In addition misdirection in the meta right now is really potent. Misdirecting hymn to tourach is just insane. Plus having force not only for your own combo protection but against belcher and storm comes in handy. In addition i have won off of show and tell a few times, the thing is against reanimator if they bring iona on green you have a blue way out and if they slaughter games your hypergenesis you still have show and tell.

Asthereal

02-19-2013, 12:18 PM

4x Irrigation Ditch

Really? Enters the battlefield tapped, while you want to win on turn one?
That's probably a small brain fart. I forgive you. :wink:

Instead have a look at:

Tendo Ice Bridge
Undiscovered Paradise
Gemstone Caverns

The latter can help win on turn 1 of you are on the draw.
Maybe it's more sideboard material, but still.

Edit: nice trick with the Caverns would be to always have the opponent start. You will then have 16 mana accellerants (8x Guide, 4x Chancellor, 4x Caverns). That does mess up the taxing Chancellor though...

Sturtzilla

02-28-2013, 10:44 AM

Edit: nice trick with the Caverns would be to always have the opponent start. You will then have 16 mana accellerants (8x Guide, 4x Chancellor, 4x Caverns). That does mess up the taxing Chancellor though...

I totally agree with the suggested lands. I think that this is an interesting take on the list. We may be losing consistency for this gain in speed. I am interested in hearing the testing results here though.

Asthereal

02-28-2013, 12:46 PM

When I tried a setup like this I got fucked over by my list all the time. :tongue:
Constantly hands with no accell, no business, no dudes, no protection when I needed it.
Stuff like that.

But for someone slightly more lucky than myself it could work, I guess. :cool:

Mr. Safety

03-29-2013, 07:32 PM

I've been testing the turd out of this deck, albeit a non-optimal list. I have made some serious changes, but i still lack the neccessary dual lands (so I'm using shocks, besides Savannah.) It has been gold-fishing around turn 3, turn 2 sometimes, and occasionally the stone-cold with a turn 1. I have 3x Force maindeck and a slew of blue-based fatties to support the forces. Sideboard brings in Ricochet Trap against blue decks and the Leylines are a streamlined plan of attack against problematic matchups.

Please feel free to comment on the list. I do not have 4 copies of Force or Emrakul, and I don't own Show and Tell. I'm going to a local tournament, usually 12-18 players, and I'm using Natural Order as my alternative combo enabler out of the board. It's weak because it's green and the best target is Progenitus. I was hoping to get a Worldspine Wurm to add to the decklist, but it didn't pan out. If it shows up in the mail before next Saturday it will replace Empyrial Archangel.

I realize this isn't optimal, but it is a ton better than where I started. I still have 2x Irrigation Ditch in the deck because Wasteland is not prominant in my meta-game, and the potential for the double mana on turn 3 is worth 2 slots (in my opinion, given my narrow little corner of the world meta-game.)

Sturtzilla

04-01-2013, 09:57 AM

Please feel free to comment on the list. I do not have 4 copies of Force or Emrakul, and I don't own Show and Tell. I'm going to a local tournament, usually 12-18 players, and I'm using Natural Order as my alternative combo enabler out of the board. It's weak because it's green and the best target is Progenitus. I was hoping to get a Worldspine Wurm to add to the decklist, but it didn't pan out. If it shows up in the mail before next Saturday it will replace Empyrial Archangel.

I like the configuration a lot better than the list you posted a while back. I still think having more permission is where you what to be in order to force the combo through. I guess an alternative is just running more Cascade spells, which is what you have done. The problem with this plan is that opponents can just slow you down by countering early Cascades. This could buy them enough time to win the game or to find an answer to you fatties. Part of the original strength of the deck was to be able to just combo off on turn 1-2 rather consistently. This really reduces your opponent's means to favorably interact with you. This really reduces the spells that you have to play around to say, FoW, Daze, Spell Pierce, and some Discard. This deck is very one dimensional and it is very aggressive in this one dimension. If you give up the advantage you have in this area, you might as well play a different deck.

On Worldspine Wurm, if you have a way to give it haste, it might be borderline/worth considering, as it can plop into play and just kill an opponent. However StP and PtE make it a less attractive creature for this deck in my opinion. If you are set on running it, I would put it in the sideboard versus non-white/non-black decks.

I realize this isn't optimal, but it is a ton better than where I started. I still have 2x Irrigation Ditch in the deck because Wasteland is not prominant in my meta-game, and the potential for the double mana on turn 3 is worth 2 slots (in my opinion, given my narrow little corner of the world meta-game.)

If there are not too many Wastelands in your meat what kind of meta is this then?

bernson

04-04-2013, 09:36 AM

The List looks somewhat solid. If possible, I'd try to get my hands on the 4th FOW & 4th Shardless agent. That would make 12 cascade spells, instead of the regular 8- with 4 show & tell.
I don't really like the Natural order plan, I think it is too dependant on having a green creature in play. I rather like to see sneak attack (4 to cast as well), I know Brad Nelson used some in his list. for the SB, I like misdirection over ricochet trap if you have them.

Asthereal

04-04-2013, 09:54 AM

Actually I feel Misdirection is main deck material - again, if you have them of course.
Other than that the list looks okay. Maybe you could try to add some lands. You really need 3 mana, or else your deck does nothing at all.

If you want a 12th cascade spell, you can also try one Demonic Dread. Nicely cheap common, that is. :)
Does demand a different mana base though (Gemstone Mine, Citiy of Brass, Tendo Ice Bridge and Undiscovered Paradise).
This rules out the Natural Order plan, since you no longer have the option to fetch an Arbor.
I agree with the Sneak Attack as alternative for Natural Order. That seems like a very good choice.

Note on Worldspine Wurm: I think it's pretty good. You can definitely keep it in.
You will drop two fatties almost every time you combo anyway, so they kill the Wurm but then Jin&Tonic draws you a full set of new stuff. :)

Mr. Safety

04-05-2013, 02:43 PM

Dropped the Ditchs altogether, added a Plateau and a basic Forest. No Dryad Arbors, and no Natural Order. I also dropped all ORings for more Angel of Despair. I never hard-cast ORing, so I wanted the 5/5 Vindicate instead.

Sideboard:
1x Hypergenesis (first one will likely be countered against blue decks, this gets it up to 3 so I can try again 2 more times)
2x Blazing Archon (fast tribals)
4x Ricochet Trap (blue decks)
4x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Leyline of the Void

Playing in a local tomorrow with the list. I'll be sure to post a report.

Mr. Safety

04-07-2013, 09:29 AM

Took first place, 12 players, 4 rounds. Went 8-2 for games. Losses came from a solid mono-black reanimator deck that played Smallpox on my ass and against RUG Delver. I'll be back later to get a detailed report in. The deck was really fun, super consistent (turn 2-3 unless disrupted). I played against that Reanimator, B/r Dark Confidant homebrew, Belcher, and RUG Delver.

Fun time was had by all (well, at least me...)

jcsy

04-23-2013, 08:11 AM

Took first place, 12 players, 4 rounds. Went 8-2 for games. Losses came from a solid mono-black reanimator deck that played Smallpox on my ass and against RUG Delver. I'll be back later to get a detailed report in. The deck was really fun, super consistent (turn 2-3 unless disrupted). I played against that Reanimator, B/r Dark Confidant homebrew, Belcher, and RUG Delver.

Fun time was had by all (well, at least me...)

did you use Worldspine wurm, or maelstrom wanderer?

Mr. Safety

05-05-2013, 05:08 PM

did you use Worldspine wurm, or maelstrom wanderer?

Neither, I put in a 4th Griselbrand because I couldn't get either one in time.

Sturtzilla

05-06-2013, 10:31 AM

Neither, I put in a 4th Griselbrand because I couldn't get either one in time.

I am pretty sure that you want to be on 4 Griselbrand, 4 Emrakul, and 4 Progenitus. These are some of the hardest creatures for typical decks to deal with. They present fast clocks, resource advantages for us (life and cards), and resource disadvantages for opponents (sacrificing permanents). Typically there are 2 flex slots. I am not on board with this Worldspine Wurm plan personally. I think that he is easy to get rid of via Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares, both of which negate his dies ability. I think you probably want the Wanderer, Akroma's Memorial, or Angel of Despair in these slots. These should generally be higher impact cards.

Karhumies

05-06-2013, 01:46 PM

Here's a few pseudo-random card possibilities for the SB, mostly meta choices:

catch-all
Teferi's Realm
Terastodon
Zealous Conscripts

big bodies which do something useful before the combo
Chancellor of the Annex
Chancellor of the Tangle
Chancellor of the Forge (especially with Natural Order)

Chancellor of the Forge (especially with Natural Order)
This doesn't actually work, since Order requires you to sac a green guy, not a red one.

Some of the other stuff could work. We tried the other Chancellors. They can be good sometimes. They do have their disadvantages though. Tangle sucks if you don't have the Spirit Guide and land to go for a turn one try. Annex sucks if your opponent starts and has Force of Will plus a land to pay for the Annex cost or something. And as creatures they are just not that good. Annex would stop Storm from going off, but that's about it. In most cases you would just rather have Emrakul, Griselbrand or Progenitus.

The other stuff you mentioned is mostly corner case useful. If you can Blood Moon them out of the game (and yourself, since you play like 16 non-basics) you can also just Shardless -> Hypergenesis -> two really big dudes. That seems better in a way. :tongue: I feel that this deck already is pretty inconsistent (no cantrips) and can only work if it's fully committed and focused on the wincon. I'd recommend this deck only with the following setup:

Side:
0-1 Misdirection
1-3 City of Solitude
3 Ingot Chewer (thanks for the help on that one :smile:)
3 Faerie Macabre
2-3 Angel of Despair
4 Leyline of Sanctity /15
(changes depending on the meta)

Karhumies

05-06-2013, 06:47 PM

The other stuff you mentioned is mostly corner case useful.
... I feel that this deck already is pretty inconsistent (no cantrips) and can only work if it's fully committed and focused on the wincon.

I agree with both of these points.

With the Chancellors, I was primarily trying to think of a creature which could have a beneficial impact on the game already before hitting the board to compliment the Terastodon / Angel of Despair commonly used in the sideboard. This deck does not have any 1-2 mana plays, which can occasionally make us sitting ducks G2 on the play. I agree that the Chancellors' unassisted racing ability is poor.

Some poor cards which can also be used to cantrip:
Street Wraith
Rebuild
Rescind
Scrap
Break Asunder
Hush

I am pretty sure that you want to be on 4 Griselbrand, 4 Emrakul, and 4 Progenitus. These are some of the hardest creatures for typical decks to deal with. They present fast clocks, resource advantages for us (life and cards), and resource disadvantages for opponents (sacrificing permanents). Typically there are 2 flex slots. I am not on board with this Worldspine Wurm plan personally. I think that he is easy to get rid of via Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares, both of which negate his dies ability. I think you probably want the Wanderer, Akroma's Memorial, or Angel of Despair in these slots. These should generally be higher impact cards.

Worldspine is not an option anymore, and also keep in mind that it is a budget list.

Improvements moving forward: 2 more copies of Emrakul, 3 more copies of Progenitus. I would cut Jin-Gitaxias, Inkwell Leviathan, and Blightsteel Colossus to make room. If I happen to trade into the 4th Force of Will I would then cut an Angel of Despair to make room, putting it to the sideboard and dropping the Blazing Archons. If I trade into the correct dual lands, then I'll replace those as well. It isn't likely I'll get the dual lands, but the 4th Force is something I'm working on aggressively just like the Emrakuls and Progenitus'.

The budget lands didn't bother me at all, because I was usually still at 10 life or so when I combo-ed out. I would just sit on fetchlands and crack them on the combo turn. At the tournament I Force-d a Stifle to win, and I worked around Spell Pierce too with a spare land and Simian Spirit Guide.

Worldspine is not an option anymore, and also keep in mind that it is a budget list.

Improvements moving forward: 2 more copies of Emrakul, 3 more copies of Progenitus. I would cut Jin-Gitaxias, Inkwell Leviathan, and Blightsteel Colossus to make room. If I happen to trade into the 4th Force of Will I would then cut an Angel of Despair to make room, putting it to the sideboard and dropping the Blazing Archons. If I trade into the correct dual lands, then I'll replace those as well. It isn't likely I'll get the dual lands, but the 4th Force is something I'm working on aggressively just like the Emrakuls and Progenitus'.

I think playing guys that are vulnerable to Swords and Path is probably a poor call unless they really are going to be winning you the game, more or less, on the spot. To clarify this a bit, Emrakul and Progenitus are both very difficult for opponents to deal with. Griselbrand may be targetable with removal, but he gives us the option to dig deeper into the deck, possibly enabling another Cascade combo in the same turn, possibly finding a Haste enabler, and hopefully just ending the game. It sounds like you are having a decent level of success with your version of the deck. Your report was enjoyable/fun read, thanks. On another note, I had not considered Blightsteel Colossus as a player in the flex slots of this deck. I think I would still want two cards that give Haste, a la Malestrom Wanderer or Akroma's Memorial. Blightsteel is relatively hard to deal with for most decks (really hard for non-white decks) and threatens to win the game in one attack; however, winning through infect damage/poison is a diverging path to victory for all of the other creatures in the deck. I think testing him out a bit more would be worth your time. I am curious to hear how he works out. I would cut the Jin-Gitaxias, Inkwells and other items before the Blightsteels. As a sidenote, my meta game has shifted a bit toward Jund and BUG style decks... Misdirection is pretty powerful in these matches. I may have to dust this deck off and run it a few times.

Asthereal

05-07-2013, 01:18 PM

This deck does not have any 1-2 mana plays, which can occasionally make us sitting ducks G2 on the play.
If you worry about being too slow to have impact on the game, you could still try the FoW/Misdirectionless list we discussed earlier. Your mana base would contain 8x Spirit Guide, 4x Gemstone Caverns and 4x Chancellor of the Tangle. You let you opponent start every game (they'll like it very much, and another cool fact is that the only deck that ever lets the opponent start requires a very different technique to beat: Manaless Dredge), and because they strat you have 16 mana accellerators. Because you don't play the free counterspells, you need the Chancellor of the Annex as protection, and just hope you don't encounter too many FoWs.

I would vote against this plan, because you just lose to Force of Will, which seems rather weak in Legacy, but I guess it could be an idea in certain types of metas.

Mr. Froggy

05-07-2013, 06:28 PM

I just got myself some Shardless Agents to make this deck, because it seems to be a fun deck to play. :)

Mr. Safety

05-07-2013, 06:44 PM

I think playing guys that are vulnerable to Swords and Path is probably a poor call unless they really are going to be winning you the game, more or less, on the spot. To clarify this a bit, Emrakul and Progenitus are both very difficult for opponents to deal with. Griselbrand may be targetable with removal, but he gives us the option to dig deeper into the deck, possibly enabling another Cascade combo in the same turn, possibly finding a Haste enabler, and hopefully just ending the game. It sounds like you are having a decent level of success with your version of the deck. Your report was enjoyable/fun read, thanks. On another note, I had not considered Blightsteel Colossus as a player in the flex slots of this deck. I think I would still want two cards that give Haste, a la Malestrom Wanderer or Akroma's Memorial. Blightsteel is relatively hard to deal with for most decks (really hard for non-white decks) and threatens to win the game in one attack; however, winning through infect damage/poison is a diverging path to victory for all of the other creatures in the deck. I think testing him out a bit more would be worth your time. I am curious to hear how he works out. I would cut the Jin-Gitaxias, Inkwells and other items before the Blightsteels. As a sidenote, my meta game has shifted a bit toward Jund and BUG style decks... Misdirection is pretty powerful in these matches. I may have to dust this deck off and run it a few times.

I face almost zero BUG decks. My reasoning for Jin was because he is yet ANOTHER creature that draws you more cards. Honestly, he's there to enable a 2nd cascade or simply to draw into Force of Will (while raping opponent's hands.) I liked it, but I agree that Progenitus should replace Jin + Inkwell.

Iona is *almost* as good as Grisel/Emrakul. Most of the time I was swinging for lethal and Iona shuts off removal or problematic colors (white for Swords/Terminus, Blue for Jace.

Honestly it's the MIX of fatties that really counts. I fought through DOUBLE Innocent Blood and still won the game. Show and Tell can't do that, at least it's much harder. If you want to play Show and Tell, play Show and Tell. Hypergenesis is like an 'over the top' Show and Tell deck, in my opinion. If I have Iona + Chancellor, that usually gets there. Chancellor is janky, but it's also great against Storm. It's also a way to play Daze without, you know, playing Daze. Buying you one extra turn essentially quickens your fundamental turn. I know that isn't exactly the case, but it has worked really well.

Angel of Despair is a simple neccessity in the deck, honestly. What happens when they board in Humility? Uh oh...

Changes for me moving forward:

-2 Jin
-1 Inkwell
+3 Progenitus

-2 Blightsteel Colossus
+2 Emrakul

-1 SOMETHING
+1 Force of Will

That would put it right where I want it, honestly. I have no intentions of making it into a pseudo-Show and Tell deck. I'm playing Hypergenesis with 11-12 cascade spells, because that's how I roll.

Mr. Safety

05-07-2013, 06:45 PM

I just got myself some Shardless Agents to make this deck, because it seems to be a fun deck to play. :)

Fun-factor is huge. If there was such thing as an interactive Timmy combo deck, this is it.

Asthereal

05-07-2013, 07:22 PM

I have no intentions of making it into a pseudo-Show and Tell deck. I'm playing Hypergenesis with 11-12 cascade spells, because that's how I roll.
Show and Tell is better than Ardent Plea for three reasons, and worse for just one:
1. Plea cannot be cast with two Spirit Guides plus one land, S&T can.
2. Stifle doesn't stop S&T, but does stop the cascade from Plea.
3. Chalice at zero doesn't stop S&T, but does stop the Hypergenesis from Plea.
-4. Plea enables dropping more than one 'Main Dude', S&T doesn't.

With this in mind, most decide S&T is better than Plea. I support S&T in this case.
Remember that 2/3's of your wincons is still Cascade -> Hypergenesis.
The S&T is just there because its better than Ardent Plea.

I did forget to mention one argument that is irrelevant in normal discussion, but might be relevant for you:
S&T costs like $30 or more, whereas Plea costs like $1 each. :rolleyes:

Mr. Safety

05-09-2013, 06:27 PM

Show and Tell is better than Ardent Plea for three reasons, and worse for just one:
1. Plea cannot be cast with two Spirit Guides plus one land, S&T can.
2. Stifle doesn't stop S&T, but does stop the cascade from Plea.
3. Chalice at zero doesn't stop S&T, but does stop the Hypergenesis from Plea.
-4. Plea enables dropping more than one 'Main Dude', S&T doesn't.

With this in mind, most decide S&T is better than Plea. I support S&T in this case.
Remember that 2/3's of your wincons is still Cascade -> Hypergenesis.
The S&T is just there because its better than Ardent Plea.

I did forget to mention one argument that is irrelevant in normal discussion, but might be relevant for you:
S&T costs like $30 or more, whereas Plea costs like $1 each. :rolleyes:

Show and Tell is obviously the more powerful card, but my goal with Hypergenesis wasn't to play just a different version of Show and Tell. I wanted to play multiple fat dudes fast.

I haven't seen Chalice or Trinisphere even once in my metagame, which doesn't mean it isn't there, it just means that they certainly aren't prominent. Thalia is tough, basically shutting the deck down, so I have to mulligan into a turn 1-2 combo if I'm going to beat Thalia. If anyone has any ideas on how to beat Thalia, I would welcome them. The best I can come up with right now is Shriekmaw, which doesn't seem like a terrible idea.

iamajellydonut

05-09-2013, 06:32 PM

Thalia is tough, basically shutting the deck down, so I have to mulligan into a turn 1-2 combo if I'm going to beat Thalia. If anyone has any ideas on how to beat Thalia, I would welcome them. The best I can come up with right now is Shriekmaw, which doesn't seem like a terrible idea.

I'll give you a hint as to what card solves this. It's three words, starts with "Show", and ends with "Tell".

Mr. Safety

05-09-2013, 06:52 PM

I'll give you a hint as to what card solves this. It's three words, starts with "Show", and ends with "Tell".

:wink: Good one!

Asthereal

05-10-2013, 08:10 AM

Show and Tell is obviously the more powerful card, but my goal with Hypergenesis wasn't to play just a different version of Show and Tell. I wanted to play multiple fat dudes fast.
I don't get how you can say such a thing and really mean it.
The regular Show and Tell decks are WAY different from any Hypergenesis list.
They all play Brainstorm, Ponder, and so on.
This deck plays only CMC3+ cards. It's different in almost every way.

It's probably also worse in almost every way, but that's a different story. :tongue:

Think of it this way:
Show and Tell/Sneak Attack decks are a bit like ANT. Resilient, but a tad slow.
Hypergenesis decks are like Belcher. Fast and very powerful, but bad against hate and not very consistent.

Sturtzilla

05-10-2013, 11:05 AM

Changes for me moving forward:

-2 Jin
-1 Inkwell
+3 Progenitus

-2 Blightsteel Colossus
+2 Emrakul

-1 SOMETHING
+1 Force of Will

I think this is moving in the right direction. However as the thread is coming to discuss, Show and Tell would still be absent. Many decks just can't beat a early Show and Tell for Emrakul, Progenitus, or Griselbrand.

Show and Tell is better than Ardent Plea for three reasons, and worse for just one:
1. Plea cannot be cast with two Spirit Guides plus one land, S&T can.
2. Stifle doesn't stop S&T, but does stop the cascade from Plea.
3. Chalice at zero doesn't stop S&T, but does stop the Hypergenesis from Plea.
-4. Plea enables dropping more than one 'Main Dude', S&T doesn't.

The original lists were built to either land on big fatty and protect it for a few turns with Show and Tell or to just flood the board with multiple threats. Either of these line should win most games. Show and Tell gives the deck two major lines of attack. While just cascading make the deck far easier to hate out due to mana taxing cards like Thalia or prison-style hate cards like Chalice of the Void. By running both lines, you make it more difficult for your opponent to know how to interact with you. By running only one side of the plan you make the deck weaker overall and easier to sideboard for. As far as being able to drop multiple dudes being a draw back of Show and Tell, I find this to be a moot point. That isn't why Show and Tell is included.

Show and Tell is obviously the more powerful card, but my goal with Hypergenesis wasn't to play just a different version of Show and Tell. I wanted to play multiple fat dudes fast.

This is fine but will make your deck more susceptible to hate. As I have mentioned above, Show and Tell diversifies the deck and as such gives you as the pilot more options as to how to combo and ultimately win the game.

I haven't seen Chalice or Trinisphere even once in my metagame, which doesn't mean it isn't there, it just means that they certainly aren't prominent. Thalia is tough, basically shutting the deck down, so I have to mulligan into a turn 1-2 combo if I'm going to beat Thalia. If anyone has any ideas on how to beat Thalia, I would welcome them. The best I can come up with right now is Shriekmaw, which doesn't seem like a terrible idea.

Off of the top of my head, I can't think of much past Massacre to kill Thalia on the cheap. This however would require going into a fourth color. One of this deck's strengths is that it is able to fetch basics against mana denial strategies. Changing the mana base would likely make the deck softer to Wastelands and the like. I think the best way to remedy Thalia, would be to run the full 4 Force of Will and the full 4 Show and Tell. Four FoW will help you keep Thalia off of the table. Four Show and Tell allow you to only need to hit 4 mana to pay for the Thalia. I am not sure but even one of the threats in this deck typically will take over a game, even when faced down by a Thalia.

Mr. Safety

05-10-2013, 02:09 PM

Fair enough, and I realize that I am skirting one of the main directions of the deck (diversifying into S&T.) I figure if the local meta-game is soft to Show and Tell than it should be soft to a pure-Hypergenesis build. I pick it when I need a fast combo deck to punish the aggro decks.

jcsy

05-13-2013, 10:06 PM

Show and Tell is better than Ardent Plea for three reasons, and worse for just one:
1. Plea cannot be cast with two Spirit Guides plus one land, S&T can.
2. Stifle doesn't stop S&T, but does stop the cascade from Plea.
3. Chalice at zero doesn't stop S&T, but does stop the Hypergenesis from Plea.
-4. Plea enables dropping more than one 'Main Dude', S&T doesn't.

With this in mind, most decide S&T is better than Plea. I support S&T in this case.
Remember that 2/3's of your wincons is still Cascade -> Hypergenesis.
The S&T is just there because its better than Ardent Plea.

I did forget to mention one argument that is irrelevant in normal discussion, but might be relevant for you:
S&T costs like $30 or more, whereas Plea costs like $1 each. :rolleyes:

Wow. I have mine for some time now. Back when I got them, they were around $30 and a bit.
But anyway, price can never be an argument when we discuss optimal lists.

jcsy

05-14-2013, 04:05 AM

Wow. I have mine for some time now. Back when I got them, they were around $30 and a bit.
But anyway, price can never be an argument when we discuss optimal lists.

I agree but sometimes its just that

non-optimal lists

if you look at the hyper report a few posts above, many people were running non-optimal lists but still could play and get thru

3 shardless, 3 FOW, shocklands etc :D

i even bought my 4x S&T when they were 15 USD, lol

Mr. Froggy

05-21-2013, 09:57 PM

I just saw someone on MTGO go off Turn 0, lol.

Asthereal

07-10-2013, 05:38 AM

This weekend I played a bit with the Hyper Accellerated Hypergenesis list, and I was surprised at how well it went. I was playing against the OmniHalls deck, which profits from my Hypergenesis and Show and Tell, next to the fact that it runs counterspells, so that should seem like a pretty bad matchup, but still I managed to win 3-2. Perhaps I was lucky, but this encouraged me to fool around with the deck a bit more. Let's have a look at my current list:

The idea being (as described earlier) that you always let the opponent start, and then with Gemstone Caverns, Chancellor of the Tangle and both Spirit Guides you have a total of 16 cards that can accellerate you into a Cascade spell or a Show and Tell on turn one. Chancellor of the Annex can protect you a bit from turn one discard spells and counterspells. It doesn't protect you very well, but it's better than nothing. Besides, it's pretty dangerous when you get it into play next to some other guys because it slows the opponent down quite a lot, leaving him unable to recover.

Now my question is: what would be serious improvements to this list?

First I was looking at: I would like to have an additional Angel of Despair main deck. Perhaps I could cut a Griselbrand for that, since Grisel actually isn't that impressive in this deck. Also playing a full set of a legendary guy runs the risk of not being able to put all your dudes into play. Emrakul of course is way too good to not play a full set of, but the rest isn't as impressive.

Second idea I had: Perhaps only borderline relevant, since this deck is so fast, but Undiscovered Paradise was a nuisance in one game I played. Most of the mana we play disappears after one time use (Guides, Chancellor), so having a land disappear as well isn't the best if we need to go off a second time during a game. I was thinking we could perhaps play Forbidden Orchard instead. It's drawback should be less of a problem than that of the Paradise.

Third: Maybe, just maybe, we could cut one land. This deck desperately needs three mana on turn one (eight cards, since we're not starting). Maybe 26 mana sources could be enough. I'm not absolutely sold on it, because I'm terrible at math, so I don't know how to calculate the chances of not hitting enough mana sources in the opening eight...

Since we are running 3 colors, I wonder how important it is to actually run rainbow lands

Tendo gives us 1 use, which is usually decent
Reflecting Pool depends on another land, so turn 1 screw is possible (though low if you run only 1)
Exotic really depends on opponent land
Forbidden Orchard used to be used when we could only run Demonic Dread but might consider
Tarnished Citadel is painful as hell (3 life!)

Asthereal

08-30-2013, 05:05 PM

Thanks! :smile: I am on the Forbidden Orchard now. It's a lot better if the game goes beyond turn 2-3, and the 1/1 guys usually cannot beat my rediculous monsters anyway. :wink: The reason I use rainbow lands in the first place is that this deck often only uses one land, and if that one land gives the wrong colour of mana you are screwed big time. Remember this deck explodes on turn one. Every turn we waste with waiting for the correct colour of mana will cost us, because we have absolutely no way of interacting with what the opponent is doing. :rolleyes:

Another change I made in the mean time: the Angel of Despair proved to be really good so I have added one to the main, replacing a Griselbrand.

The sideboard is now very different. I decided the Mindbreak Traps don't really make sense, so I have cut them completely. Main reason: the Traps are only good against Storm, but I already have the Leylines to stop them from killing me with Tendrils (or at least slow down that plan), and to prevent them from using discard to tear apart my hand. Additionally, I don't want to sideboard more than four cards anyway, since it messes up my plan. Now I have space for new stuff. I decided I am cold to Force of Will, so I added two City of Solitude, one Hypergenesis (to make going off a second time better), one Ardent Plea (same idea) and an Island (more mana stability).

with Gemstone Caverns, some SSG/ESG and Chancellors, how important is it to combo turn 1?

Especially without COUNTER?

my list runs a little more protection, aiming to combo T2 though

Asthereal

09-01-2013, 02:13 PM

How often do you T1 combo?
The idea is every time. Unfortunately I don't draw that well, and with mulligans, chances go down a lot. It's a risky strategy, that's for sure.

How important is it to combo turn 1?
Especially without COUNTER?
Very important. My only protection is Chancellor of the Annex, which stops Thougtseize, Duress, Inquisition of Kozilek and Spell Pierce on turn one, but afterwards everything they can have comes online. Going off later means they just disrupt you and you have to try again.

My list runs a little more protection, aiming to combo T2 though
It's a choice. The conventional list plays 8x Spirit Guide, 4x Force of Will, 4x Misdirection and fetch-duals-basics as mana base. That's more stable, but less explosive, which means the opponent can get all sorts of disruption going.

Let me do a small tourney report from my efforts today (31 people tourney).
My list was the exact list from two posts back.
So I have the extra Hypergenesis on side, with an extra enabler and an extra land.

Round one, against Twan with a homebrew controllish deck with Deathrites and a Rector>Diablic Intent>Omniscience>Emrakul kill.

Game 1 he wins the toss and starts. I keep my 7 that cannot go off on turn one, but can does contain Shardless, Iona and Angel of Despair plus some lands. He starts with Tropical into Deathrite. The turn after he plays a Scrubland. He Thoughtseizes me and sees a Shardless, Iona and an Angel of Despair. He takes the Angel. Okay, he's either a very bad player, or he has an answer to my Iona. I draw an Emrakul and cast Shardless. Hypergenesis resolves and I drop both Emrakul and Iona. If he has an answer to one of these, surely he should die to the other. Considering his cards so far, I put him on DeathBlade, so I name black for Iona. I recon Liliana of the Veil could be a nuisance. Could also have named blue for Jace. Anyway, kill one, guy, the other blows up the Walker, so any colour should do. Turns out he has Living Wish for Karakas. He bounces my Emrakul and takes 7 from Iona. Turn later he bounces Iona too. We durdle for a while. He takes some damage from the Agent, but Academy Rector hits the table, stopping my Agent. I am hoping for a new Cascade spell and I would draw my sweet stuff one turn after he Diabolic Intens his Rector into Omniscience and an Emrakul. I have to sac my board so I cannot stop this.

Game 2 I open a 7 that can go off on turn one, but again lacks Annex. He blind Therapies on Agent, but I have Violent Outburst. I continue to drop Emrakul and Chancellor of the Tangle, which he cannot stop.

Game 3 I again open a 7 that goes off turn one but lacks Annex. Turns out it doesn't matter because he Forces my Hypergenesis. He proceeds to give me like eight turns to draw new good stuff, but I cannot find mana, so I cannot go for a second attempt. He finishes off with Rector>Intent>Omniscience>Emrakul again. This seemed unlucky, but the again this deck cannot alter its luck with cantrips, so chances of this happening are pretty real.
0-1 / 1-2

Round two, BYE :frown:
So I scout some, eat some, have a chat here and there.
It turns out there is like 5x TES from the 31 guys there. I'd like to meet one. That's going to be a three minute round. :tongue:
1-1 / 1-2

Round three, against Sander with Ub OmniHalls.
I scouted badly, since I have no idea what he is on.

Game 1 I open a bad 7 with no Annex, and also no way to go nuts on turn one. I do have good options to go for turn 3 and 4 (two enablers, lands and big guys). I decide to keep. My draws are irrelevant, so I am in pretty bad shape. He cantrips once, and on turn 3 tries a Show and Tell. I have an Angel of Despair, so I put that down. He flips Dream Halls. I target the Halls, amnd he thinks for quite a while, but decides to let it resolve. I get greedy here. I think he must not have Cunning Wish, because he has four cards in hand and he could go Wish into Trickbind, but didn't. So I respond to the Angel trigger myself and cast Violent Outburst into Hypergenesis. If he has Intuition, he can get Omniscience and just kill me, but most OmniHalls play no Intuition main, or just one. Turns out he has his one-of and he gets Omniscience into Enter the Infinite and he kills me. Lost to a one-of, that happens sometimes. But maybe I should have been less greedy and just have tried to kill him in the four turns I had from the Angel. I don't know. I saw a way to get him on a two turn clock, but I guess I should have waited until it proved necessary to take the risk.

Game 2 I mull to a bad six, but it has Terastodon for his Show and Tell. Naturally, after just cantripping once, he has Show and Tell, Omniscience and Cunning Wish, and he gets Firemind's Foresight into Trickbind and a new Wish, and kills me again.
1-2 / 1-4

I strongly feel that I just lost to some serious God hands, since OmniHalls is essentially a three card combo, that normally takes some heavy cantripping to get together. I also tested against OmniHalls and went 3-3, but perhaps that was a lucky shot. I don't know. All I know is that this was pretty hopeless.

Round four, against Nick with Burn.

Game 1 I open a 7 that cannot do anything, but the mulligan gets me a hand that dumps Iona on turn one. My draw gets me another dude and Nick scoops to the army, since he cannot do anything with Iona on red.

Game 2 I again have to mull. This time I keep a shaky six that still need to find an enabler. I don't get one and die on turn four.

Game 3 I open a 7 that I don't have to throw away. It gets me the Iona on turn one again, and Nick scoops 'em up again.
2-2 / 3-5

Round five, against Sammy from London with Shardless BUG
Sammy is a very nice guy. We had chatted before this round and I know what he is on.

Game 1 I have to mull to five, but my five can actually do something if I find one more mana. I don't, and his Hymn takes Iona and Show and Tell, leaving me with a grand total of nothing. He hits my face with two Goyfs and an Agent.

Game 2 I again have to mull, but this time Sammy joins me. I get an okay six that doesn;t immidiately go off, but is still useable. Shardless BUG is pretty slow so I keep it. He manages to Hymn me again on turn two, but this time he takes the slightly less relevnat stuff, and my topdecks are okay, so I manage to cast Shardless Agent, and he doesn't have the Force for my Hypergenesis, so I get Griselbrand on the board. At the end of his turn, I draw seven, then in my turn swing in and drop four more big guys. Sammy has seen enough.

Game 3 I finally get the Annex, together with a hand that drops stuff on turn one! Turns out Sammy had Thoughtseize for disruption, and Annex just wrecks that plan. I get the row of fatties out without him being able to interact, and he scoops them up as soon as he realises what the Annex guy does when it's on the board.

Turned out he didn't board in his additional Baleful Strixes. I told him the Strix is pretty good against me, especially if I have only stuff like Chancellors or Iona to drop on the board. The Strix can slow me donw and give him the opportunity to find Liliana or so. He isn't sure what he should take out though, and looking through the deck I cannot really figure it out either. Perhaps some Ancestral Visions. He sided one out already, and perhaps he should drop that plan entirely.
3-2 / 5-6

So in the end I went 2-2 in rounds I actually played, and 5-6 in games. I had some bad luck and some good luck, so my main conclusion right now is this: this deck is too inconsistent to become a real contenter. It's great fun if it works, but if it doesn't, you just sit there being frustrated. Perhaps the deck deserves some more testing before I completely drop it, but from my experiences so far I have to conclude it's just not consistent enough in the long term. This by the way does not mean I prefer the conventional list. That list also lacks the cantrips to find what you need, so that list will also just draw you blanks every now and then. I'm sure it's more consistent than my 'Hyper Accellerated' list, but I still don't feel it's consistent enough to become a real contenter in the current meta.

jcsy

09-01-2013, 09:47 PM

Great tournament report ;

Looking at your report, I would say that perhaps staying off a godly T1 combo with 7 cards is what you can/should try out to put the deck on inconsistent
This is because trying as much as possible to go off T1 with a godly 7 seems to be a problem (though other various factors and u got really unlucky too)

I believe drawing and having a few interactions, more stable base with some counter backup might be slightly better ?
Just throwing ideas into the pot

I feel 14 enablers is too many. This will often cause hands with 3 enablers but lacking other important cards.
Also, your list is like 62 cards (miscounted the first subtotal), so you probably have to shave a few cards off anyway. :wink:

Cutting the two Ardent Pleas also allows you to switch to a fetch-duals-basics only mana base. That should be better against Wasteland. Let's not forget this deck must have three mana, otherwise it does nothing at all, and since we're only very seldomly going off on turn one, we need our first land to stick.

jcsy

09-04-2013, 01:49 AM

I feel 14 enablers is too many. This will often cause hands with 3 enablers but lacking other important cards.
Also, your list is like 62 cards (miscounted the first subtotal), so you probably have to shave a few cards off anyway. :wink:

Cutting the two Ardent Pleas also allows you to switch to a fetch-duals-basics only mana base. That should be better against Wasteland. Let's not forget this deck must have three mana, otherwise it does nothing at all, and since we're only very seldomly going off on turn one, we need our first land to stick.

True. From that point of view a thrid Hypergenesis also makes sense.
I had a few moments during last tournament where I drew Hypergenesis and already had my other one countered.
Once I was saved from that situation by my opponent though, because he Thoughtseized my Emrakul. :cool:

On the other hand, the portection is there to stop their disruption.
Only against heavy counter I feel we really need additional enablers.
Perhaps just play 2x Ardent Plea and 1x Hypergenesis on side?

jcsy

09-06-2013, 04:43 AM

From what I've seen, usually 2 Hypergenesis are enough since you are packing some protection
If they are in the grave, and need a reshuffle, you have 4 emrakuls to reshuffle those 2 hypergenesis (since you are doing almost nothing for 3 turns, u can use a emrakul discard)

Side definitely you want to add Ardent Plea/Hypergenesis to push thru and recombo, maybe turn 3-4

and sometimes with violent outburst, you can do opponent EOT and your turn again via show&tell (with many enablers/mana/protection)

Sturtzilla

09-13-2013, 10:43 AM

GerryT managed to take his list to the top 32 of SCG Cincinnati. He and I talked a bit about tech for the deck and the best configuration. It is worth a look if you guys are still trying to optimize your lists. Enjoy!

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26850_Being-The-Bad-Guy.html

DragoFireheart

09-13-2013, 02:54 PM

Do any decks even use Chalice of the Void anymore? How about Trinisphere?

Sturtzilla

09-13-2013, 03:59 PM

Do any decks even use Chalice of the Void anymore? How about Trinisphere?

There are a few decks out there that still run those cards. I would wager that they are a very small portion of the metagame.

Ish

09-13-2013, 04:54 PM

There are a few decks out there that still run those cards. I would wager that they are a very small portion of the metagame.

UB tezzeret plays 4. It popped up and was a little popular around my area for a bit, but I don't think it caught on.

jcsy

09-14-2013, 04:11 AM

GerryT managed to take his list to the top 32 of SCG Cincinnati. He and I talked a bit about tech for the deck and the best configuration. It is worth a look if you guys are still trying to optimize your lists. Enjoy!

This deck looks like a lot of fun out of all of the combo decks I have seen. Doesn't look terribly expensive to build either.

Why does Gerry T have a Omniscience?

Sturtzilla

09-16-2013, 01:17 PM

If you Hypergenesis and put Omniscience into play you then can just cast everything in the deck that you would otherwise have to pay mana for or find a cascade spell/Show and Tell to dump into play. It also is really great with Emrakul. You choose not to put the Emrakul into play off of the Hypergenesis, so that you can cast it and take the extra turn. This should typically just win you the game. In the case that you get into two or more Emrakuls, you can cast one, take the extra turn. Attack, post combat play another one sacrificing the first tapped one that had attacked. This lets you chain a few turns together while just brutalizing your opponent.

DragoFireheart

09-16-2013, 01:23 PM

If you Hypergenesis and put Omniscience into play you then can just cast everything in the deck that you would otherwise have to pay mana for or find a cascade spell/Show and Tell to dump into play. It also is really great with Emrakul. You choose not to put the Emrakul into play off of the Hypergenesis, so that you can cast it and take the extra turn. This should typically just win you the game. In the case that you get into two or more Emrakuls, you can cast one, take the extra turn. Attack, post combat play another one sacrificing the first tapped one that had attacked. This lets you chain a few turns together while just brutalizing your opponent.

I really want to make this deck now.

Asthereal

09-16-2013, 01:28 PM

There's another interesting application:
Say we Cascade into dropping one fattie and Omniscience. If the opponent now Terminusses our board, we would have lost if we would have had two fatties instead, but now we keep Omni on the board, allowing us to immidiately cast any new fattie we draw.
It's an interesting idea, and it definitely deserves testing. I'm not sold on it yet, but it sure does improve a number of scenarios.

Sturtzilla

09-16-2013, 04:21 PM

There's another interesting application:
Say we Cascade into dropping one fattie and Omniscience. If the opponent now Terminusses our board, we would have lost if we would have had two fatties instead, but now we keep Omni on the board, allowing us to immidiately cast any new fattie we draw.
It's an interesting idea, and it definitely deserves testing. I'm not sold on it yet, but it sure does improve a number of scenarios.

This is another great application. Also Progenitus, while a two turn clock, isn't as badass as he used to be. So fitting other angles of attacking into the deck is probably a good thing. This is narrow and probably not optimal, but post board with Omniscience in the deck, you could bring in Enter the Infinite and a Cunning Wish. This would allow for the win of your choice out of the sideboard. I am not sure how good this actually would be. Might be worth investigating.

Asthereal

09-16-2013, 05:08 PM

... This is narrow and probably not optimal, but post board with Omniscience in the deck, you could bring in Enter the Infinite and a Cunning Wish. This would allow for the win of your choice out of the sideboard. I am not sure how good this actually would be. Might be worth investigating.
Remember this deck cannot play cantrips so we cannot find this combo. That's why we play 11-12 enablers that do basically the same, ~14 fatties and ~24 mana sources. We need to draw at least one fattie, at least one enabler and at least three mana, otherwise the deck just doesn't do anything. If we start playing cards that only work as a three card combo (an enabler, Omni and Enter), we will surely screw ourselves.

Omniscience is an interesting idea because it has some applications that can help us out if we brick for whatever reason, and because it allows us to kill the same (okay, in the extra) turn we go off. That could save us from certain death in a number of situations. I would strongly recommend we only use Omniscience as such, and not to try some wacky combo we cannot consistently tutor or cantrip for.

jcsy

09-17-2013, 12:33 AM

Another application would also allow us to use Griselbrand to draw more, Omniscience those into play (Hoping for Emrakul) and gain extra turn as well.

I'm not purely sold on this however I would prefer something stable like Akroma's Memorial which Gerry T used to play as well..
I do think both are WIN-MORE cards, but needed because our stuffs just dont get there these days

Regarding multiple enablers, I think its necessary because like Asthereal said, we will surely screw ourselves in 3 turns if we dont get decent stuff
The enablers, the land count and threat count are about right (with a small protection suite) like FOW & Misdirection
Now thinking about it, Omniscience is able to pitch for protection as well while Akroma's Memorial can't
HMMMM!!!!

Also, you can use Show and Tell > Omniscience and go nuts from your hand

DragoFireheart

09-17-2013, 12:16 PM

Another application would also allow us to use Griselbrand to draw more, Omniscience those into play (Hoping for Emrakul) and gain extra turn as well.

I'm not purely sold on this however I would prefer something stable like Akroma's Memorial which Gerry T used to play as well..
I do think both are WIN-MORE cards, but needed because our stuffs just dont get there these days

Regarding multiple enablers, I think its necessary because like Asthereal said, we will surely screw ourselves in 3 turns if we dont get decent stuff
The enablers, the land count and threat count are about right (with a small protection suite) like FOW & Misdirection
Now thinking about it, Omniscience is able to pitch for protection as well while Akroma's Memorial can't
HMMMM!!!!

Also, you can use Show and Tell > Omniscience and go nuts from your hand

Also, Omniscience looks cooler.

Asthereal

09-17-2013, 12:52 PM

I feel Akroma's Memorial is very win-more. Maelstrom Wanderer is a lot better already, since it actually provides a threat, and it pitches to FoW and Misdirection. It's terrible as only threat, because it's cold to most removal, but at least it's a threat. Memorial on its own just sits there looking awkward.

Omniscience is different than Memorial, because it helps us cast whatever we topdeck. Indeed next to the option to cast Emrakul instead of dropping it, and attack in the extra turn, we also have the Griselbrand, draw 14, cast rediculous guys and then attack for a million. Omniscience speeds up the kill AND provides help for when our guys don't make it. That makes it infinitely better than Memorial, which only speeds us up.

I thought up another application, though very marginal: it enables us to hardcast FoW and Misdirection. This works against removal, saving us from having to pitch the blue card. If they counter our Hypergenesis, we just pitch Omni to our counterspell instead of dropping it, making our kill a tad slower.

Sturtzilla

09-18-2013, 09:35 AM

Not to derail the thread, but I had already said that the transformational sideboard option was a possibility and probably too narrow to really be that good. As far as Omniscience goes, I think it is better in a wider array of circumstances than either Akroma's Memorial or Maelstrom Wanderer. The real draw to these guys in my mind is the Haste. While Omni doesn't give our guys Haste, it give the deck more staying power and the ability to be more resilient. Additionally if you are worried about your opponent being able to have a turn of interaction, you can Violent Outburst at the end of their turn. This essentially gives our guys haste, while still running better cards.

DragoFireheart

09-18-2013, 09:45 AM

So basically a choice between stability vs speed.

Considering that our average turn kill is 3, it's probably better to have that stability. If our average was turn 2 then maybe.

Sturtzilla

09-18-2013, 11:08 AM

So basically a choice between stability vs speed.

Considering that our average turn kill is 3, it's probably better to have that stability. If our average was turn 2 then maybe.

You may be giving your opponent an extra turn by choosing Omni over a Haste card. If you Show and Tell Omni then cast and Emrakul... they don't get that extra turn. I think this extra turn is fine as it gives the deck more play if our opponents manage to stuff the combo and/or remove one/all of our guys. Omni is hard for most decks to deal with pre-board and gives our deck the ability to continue playing after the fist combo attempt. But yes ultimately it comes down to speed versus stability.

DragoFireheart

09-18-2013, 11:23 AM

I read this whole thread and saw some people suggesting dropping the protection Suite for more mana acceleration like the Channcellor and the Caverns. Have you tested this and what success have you had with it? Is it faster or as fast as Belcher? Is it as fast and as consistent as Belcher? That's basically the metric I'm using: if we can't get it to be as fast as Belcher and also be as consistent then going for more speed seems like a waste of time.

Sturtzilla

09-19-2013, 09:51 AM

I read this whole thread and saw some people suggesting dropping the protection Suite for more mana acceleration like the Channcellor and the Caverns. Have you tested this and what success have you had with it? Is it faster or as fast as Belcher? Is it as fast and as consistent as Belcher? That's basically the metric I'm using: if we can't get it to be as fast as Belcher and also be as consistent then going for more speed seems like a waste of time.

I think that is a totally fine way of looking at the speed versus resilience issue. I have not played the Chancellor and Caverns version. I would guess that the deck is still a turn or so slower than Belcher. I am in the stability/resilience camp.

Asthereal

09-19-2013, 11:48 AM

I read this whole thread and saw some people suggesting dropping the protection Suite for more mana acceleration like the Channcellor and the Caverns. Have you tested this and what success have you had with it? Is it faster or as fast as Belcher? Is it as fast and as consistent as Belcher? That's basically the metric I'm using: if we can't get it to be as fast as Belcher and also be as consistent then going for more speed seems like a waste of time.
I was the one suggesting the Chancellor of the Tangle and Gemstone Caverns version. I didn't really test it well, just a bit, and of course I was too lazy to keep scores of the hands it draws, but what I found so far was that it isn't as consistent as Belcher. It does feel more resillient though, because the Empty the Warrens tokens die to almost everything, and Belcher is pretty easy to hate as well.

As for speed, of course it's slower, because it likes to be on the draw at the start of every game, where Belcher loves to start. Also, I didn't run cards that would accellerate my kill to an immidiate turn one attack. I am thinking about adding the suggested Omniscience to the list though, since that thing speeds us up a lot. Just dropping Omni, and casting Emrakul for the attack next turn is already enough, but Omni also helps us cast the fatties we get from 14 Griselbrand card draws. Usually there'll be an Emrakul in there as well, so Omni grants us two options for the immidiate kill. That seems pretty good, or at least slightly better than my old list.

To answer your question: yes Belcher is better and more consistent.
To answer the other question: no, Belcher is just stupid, and this deck is way more fun to play. :wink:

I was the one suggesting the Chancellor of the Tangle and Gemstone Caverns version. I didn't really test it well, just a bit, and of course I was too lazy to keep scores of the hands it draws, but what I found so far was that it isn't as consistent as Belcher. It does feel more resillient though, because the Empty the Warrens tokens die to almost everything, and Belcher is pretty easy to hate as well.

As for speed, of course it's slower, because it likes to be on the draw at the start of every game, where Belcher loves to start. Also, I didn't run cards that would accellerate my kill to an immidiate turn one attack. I am thinking about adding the suggested Omniscience to the list though, since that thing speeds us up a lot. Just dropping Omni, and casting Emrakul for the attack next turn is already enough, but Omni also helps us cast the fatties we get from 14 Griselbrand card draws. Usually there'll be an Emrakul in there as well, so Omni grants us two options for the immidiate kill. That seems pretty good, or at least slightly better than my old list.

To answer your question: yes Belcher is better and more consistent.
To answer the other question: no, Belcher is just stupid, and this deck is way more fun to play. :wink:

This to me says we shouldn't focus on speed because we sacrifice too much for it while lacking the consistency of Belcher.

Drop the Annex/tangle and rider for FoW and Misdirection IMO. Drop tangle if you want more protection, annex if you want more speed.

Asthereal

09-19-2013, 12:11 PM

I had already concluded that the accellerated version is a bit worse.
It's a lot more fun, but it's not very consistent and very vulnerable to hate.

jcsy

09-19-2013, 10:23 PM

I would always assume that stability is better than speed, :D

sacrifice some speed, invest a little more money and go with stability

safer turn 2-3 to secure the win is usually better than going all explosive turn 1 :D

Asthereal

09-20-2013, 06:18 AM

I would always assume that stability is better than speed :D

Depends a bit on the options. Example:

ANT & TES > Belcher.
Reasons: more stability, better protection.
The biggest difference is the ability to play proper lands and cantrips.

Looking at these differences, I would say chances are there that accellerated is actually more stable. Note we don't have cantrips or so to find what we need, so playing enough of what we need to make sure we draw it naturally is the only way. And looking at the count of our needed stuff: mana (x3), enablers (x1), fatties (x1+) - I see the accellerated list has more of each, except for enablers (both play 12). The elegance of the accellerated list is also that there are several cards that have multiple purposes: the Chancellors (that's why at first called the list "Chancellor Cascade"). Annex provides protection and is a nice fattie, and Tangle provides mana and is a nice fattie. Both may not seem like much for a fattie, but Annex Force Spikes everything when it's on the board, and Tangle has vigilance and reach, so it can attack AND still block annoying Delvers or Goyfs. Both abilities matter, making them proper assets. So just looking at the numbers, the accellerated list doesn't look that bad at all.

Here is where it goes wrong:
The accellerated list wants to go off on turn one (on the draw), so it has 8 cards to work with. These 8 cards MUST contain 3+ mana, 1+ enabler and 1+ fattie. Now I'm not much of a maths geek, so I cannot just like that cough up the odds for that, but my gut feeling tells me it's not 90+%. Perhaps someone here is a maths hero and could help me out here:

We draw 8 cards from a 60 card deck.
> We need 3 or more mana out of 27 mana sources in the deck, BUT at least 2 of these must be fast mana sources out of 16 fast mana sources in the deck.
> We also need 1 or more enabler(s) out of 12 enablers in the deck.
> Lastly we need 1 or more fatties out of say 20 fatties in the deck. (This is considering I add 3x Omniscience instead of 4.)
What are the chances we draw what we need?

And when you are at it, could our hero also calculate this for drawing 7 cards with the same required cards?
This is highly relevant of course since we have to decide to keep our opening hand or not, and since our decisions will be mostly about these seven, and the odds that our six + one draw will be better, we will mostly be thinking about seven card hands.

PS. Or course now I haven't considered protection, but for that part I would like to go back to the Belcher vs. Storm example: Belcher plays almost no protection, but compensates by sheer speed. That's what our accellerated list does as well. I feel Belcher is worse than Storm because it has no cantrips, but neither Hypergenesis list has cantrips so the added stability of regular Hypergenesis vs. Accellerated will always be a small difference, only consisting of a better mana base and the wish to go off with 9+ cards in hand instead of 8, marginally improving odds to actually have what you need.

Juice11

12-04-2013, 11:48 PM

I'm just wondering if anybody still plays this deck or if it's viable at all at the moment. Looks like a fun build, but I don't want to buy into some of the cards if it won't be going anywhere.

Asthereal

12-05-2013, 07:51 AM

If you have some money to invest, I would recommend buying into a different deck.
This deck has no cantrips, so it's never going to be as consistent as for instance Sneak&Show.
It's great fun to play, and occasionally you might win a tourney with it, but other decks are just stronger on average.

kingtk3

12-05-2013, 08:10 AM

Asthreal is right. However, if you like to play with big monsters you can try Big Red:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24711-Big-Red-(Mono-R-Sneak-Attack)
Like Hypergenesis, it still suffers from not having cantrips but still has a B plan in form of resistors (chalice and trini and blood moon) and inferno titan beatdown (that card is crazy in legacy... if it lands...).
The good part is that many of the cards are played by other, more competitive decks (like sneak attack, emrakul, trinisphere, chalice, sol lands, blood moon, griselbrand...), so in the case you want to change deck you'll have some good cards to start with.

Plus the usual suspects of Grisel/Emrakul and then whoever you want to round out the team.

Possibly candidates include Inkwell, Ioona and Tidespout Tyrant.
Outburst > Plea
Reason: can be cast with two Spirit Guides, so it enables us to go off turn one.

I think in a TNN infested meta, this deck will definitely struggle.
TNN decks tend to play a lot of disruption that affects our deck.
Note that we don't have access to cantrips to draw new stuff after it got discarded/countered.

nodahero

01-24-2014, 07:05 PM

i WOULD GIVE THE NOD TO PLEA INSTEAD SINCE IT CAN PITCH TO fORCE/mISDIRECT. aLSO YOU COULD JUST SLAM AN OMNISCIENCE INTO PLAY AND CAST WHATEVER YOU WANT (COUGH EMRAKUL COUGH). Sorry for the caps.

Asthereal

01-25-2014, 04:30 AM

There's an edit button for those. :wink:

I don't see how Violent Outburst cannot slam the Omniscience to hardcast Emrakul.
Believe me, this deck just dies to a combination of Thoughtseize and counters for Hypergenesis.
That one FoW or Misdirection you may have will not be enough to battle what you encounter.

But by all means try it out on your next tournament. You'll find out what I am talking about. :tongue:

IMFXL

05-18-2014, 10:23 PM

So I've been contemplating building this deck for a couple reasons. Mainly because I already own the majority of cards that create the base from which to work from. Also it seems to be completely off of the Legacy meta radar at the moment, although I have seen some different versions hit top 8s in March. Being off the radar can lead to some success though so maybe it's time for a comeback for this deck.

Another major strength of the deck is its also able to work with a mana base that gets around the zillion copies of Wasteland that are rampant in Legacy. Lastly, it's focus gets away from the many Delver, TNN, Stone Forge decks that are being played by the mass majority at the moment. Not that those decks are bad, obviously they aren't if the are winning tournaments, but I've always been the type to try to look for something new.

So with that being said I pose a couple card choice scenarios to the group that may be able to make this deck somewhat viable again. The choices directly effect two of the main weaknesses of the deck. 1. Dealing with the many counter spells that blue decks bring to the table. 2. Finding a way to get rid of the TNN issue.

The cards I would add to the deck or the sideboard from where they can be subbed in would be;

1. City of Solitude
Pro- stops counters, and not just FOWs and Daze, but the whole lot of them.
Con - stops our counters also from being used on the opponents turn. We should be using our FOWs to push our combo through on our turn anyway, not looking to be proactively countering our opponents spells on their turn.
Con - prevents us from cracking our fetches or playing violent outburst at the opponents end step. Something that can be dealt with though, maybe just by using the fetches when they enter the battefield, or at any point within our turn since their wastelands will be restricted to the opponents turn use only from the City effect too.

2. Worst Fears
Pro - we control the opponent, and TNN doesn't have protection from its owner, so there is nothing to stop us from using their spells to get rid of it. Not to mention all the other potential upsides to controlling our opponents every move for an entire turn.
Pro - essentially gets us past the following opponents turn after we have just put out our fatties that need to wait for summoning sickness to wear off before they can start destroying.
Con - Only usable once Omniscience has hit the board

So here is the list that I'm thinking of running. I'm interested in hearing everyone's thoughts. You'll also see some slight changes that I've added for separate win conditions. Like Borborygmos land discard direct damage. I've removed the copies of Show and Tell as well. They can be put back in though, to replace 2 to 4 of the nonessential fatties if necessary. Feel free to comment on any of theses changes. I look forward to your thoughts and opinions.

i WOULD GIVE THE NOD TO PLEA INSTEAD SINCE IT CAN PITCH TO fORCE/mISDIRECT. aLSO YOU COULD JUST SLAM AN OMNISCIENCE INTO PLAY AND CAST WHATEVER YOU WANT (COUGH EMRAKUL COUGH). Sorry for the caps.

Plea is not as good as outburst, it can be used as a pitch card, but outburst can be used at instant speed at the end of the opponents turn or in response to a discard spell. This then allows you to swing back at them with hasty big dudes!

Pomegrant

09-13-2014, 03:24 AM

I've picked this deck up on MTGO recently and I've been having some success. In three daily events I have gone 0-2 (not a good result obviously, then 4-0 into 4-0.

My list is currently very stock but I think the sideboard is where this deck can have some great variation.

In the first 4-0 I was playing 2 Progenitus over the 2 Enter the Infinite but after a twitter conversation with Gerry T he suggested trying them out and they have been very good so far. Progenitus is a real stinker in this deck as there are so many Liliana's running around right now. Enter the Infinite might only be good with Omniscience but it's won me a few games outright already. Low sample size so far but it seems promising. Might cut the last Progenitus for a Maelstrom Wanderer as the '5th' haste effect for Emrakul. Online Misdirection is very cost prohibitive but it could be better than Progenitus in the main deck.

Sideboard is pretty up in the air right now but some of the cards have been strong so far. Chancellor of the Annex has been good against counterspell decks but also good against combo decks that need the density of ritual mana to be able to go off. Putting a Chancellor into play can be really strong against ANT and also helps stopping the first discard effect. Ashen Rider has been strong against matchups in which they drop problem permanents to mess with your fatties so I don't think I would be inclined to switch those out either.

The Ingot Chewer, Firespout, and Dismember are all cards that I don't necessarily know are good or not. I've never been able to use them to any effect other than them existing in the abstract for cards I would want to try to hate out. It's hard having sideboard cards for this deck because lack of sculpting spells. Open to suggestions on what to play in these spots as I'm starting to be convinced that this deck is something that might be strong in this meta game.

Sturtzilla

09-15-2014, 11:10 AM

Your list and results look great. I think the deck is still positioned rather well. As for advice on sideboarding, this is a very tough question. I think your board looks great for an open/unknown meta game. However if you are playing locally and have to play the same people over and over you may want to tweak. As you are playing online, I think the list is fine. You probably should just keep running it. Progenitus really has lost a good bit of ground these days. it might be worth looking into some other creature... say Worldspine Wurm for testing. The wurm isn't so great against Swords to Plowshares and Path to exile but otherwise is pretty sick. It plays through Liliana of the Veil and other edict effects rather well. Just a thought. Play tight and keep winning! :smile:

Emrakul503

10-03-2015, 03:10 AM

In the wake of the bannings, is it possible this deck could be semi playable again?

Holmen

10-03-2015, 03:34 AM

I've been playing food chain for 1-2 years with some success, and have recently been tinkering with Hypergenesis. Went to a local tournament with this build:

Game 1 Miracles:
I'm on the play, play a Hickory Woodlot. He plays a fetch. In my turn I play a fetch, and respond to him fetching in my EOT by fetching myself, going for the outburst, fow his fow, put out Omniscience and Griselbrand.

Game 2 Miracles:
He is on the play, on his first upkeep before he plays his first land I exile 3 guides, play outburst for Omniscience and Cunning wish getting Call for Emrakul. Win in my turn.

Game 1 Dredge:
He is on the play, dredge some, I fake FOW so he goes for cabal on that. I play turn one Emrakul.

Game 2 Dredge:
He dredges some. I play turn one Emrakul.

Game 1 Brug Tempo:
I'm on the play. I play turn one Emrakul.

Game 2 Brug Tempo:
He goes delver, I play Skerry. He plays fetch, I combo out turn 2 around Daze with a guide and fowing his fow.

Game 1 Omni:
I draw land every turn (the backside of no cantrips), he combos out.

Game 2 Omni:
I combo out, we both get Omniscience but I also have a Griselbrand ---> Emrakul.

Game 3 Omni:
I play a turn one Griselbrand and win.

4-0, 8-1 matches, not a single game won after turn 2. The deck seems sweet and the new mulligan rule is awesome for us. It feels like trolling, but it requires some setup knowing when to resolve the win. The deck preys on ordinary sloppy plays, like fetching without an Island and losing Daze for a second.
Cunning Wish gets all the answers which the deck lacks in the main: Hurkyls Recall, Wipe Away, Volcanic Fallout, etc. The board is otherwise tight, a couple of evoke dudes destroying artifacts and Macabres.

I'm cutting the depletion lands for the next time, going with 2 basics to cope with a more wasteland-centred meta post DTT.

/J

Emrakul503

10-20-2015, 01:36 AM

I want to believe!

Is there anyone else out there playing this?

Holmen

10-20-2015, 05:19 AM

Came 9th place last 70-100 people tournament with 5-2, highest ranked 15 points so reaally close. (missed on a draw)
The deck is silly, lost to goblins (did nothing) 2 games, then won easily against Tin-Fins. One game, the opponent was on the play, played a turn one Thoughtseize, I respond with 3 guides, Hyper, Griselbrand, then let Thoughtseize resolve. :)

My conclusion is that the deck is frustrating, the variance is too high. When it is good though, it crushes everything. I'm moving over to Burning Omni.

I want to believe!

Is there anyone else out there playing this?

Emrakul503

10-23-2015, 11:58 PM

I tried it out briefly, and deduced the same. When it hits, it is literally unstoppable. But when it misses... Mother of god does it miss. That said, I would love to see more support for the deck. If I see more people showing it love, I would consider getting off the OmniSneak plan.

Discard is just too brutal right now.

FRM

10-28-2015, 09:16 AM

Due to my limited experience with the deck, i'd like to hear from you what you find lacking when the deck "miss"; is it enabler, mana or monsters from hand?

Wilkin

10-28-2015, 07:53 PM

Due to my limited experience with the deck, i'd like to hear from you what you find lacking when the deck "miss"; is it enabler, mana or monsters from hand?

I haven't tried the deck out in a long while but I'll chime in.

It's lack of Library draw and/or manipulation. It used to be about mana too but it's fine now. When they printed Shardless Agent, the Hypergenesis deck can now just be 3 colors Blue, Green and Red. Before you had to use Demonic Dread or Ardent Plea and the manabase had to include rainbow lands which sucked.

But an issue that still exists is there is no Ponder or Brainstorm to help you out. And you can't use Dark Confidants or even Sylvan Library. Either you have the combo in your hand or you mull. I think you can hope to draw a mana source if that's the missing link but having no enablers or no Fatties is just asking for you to get a beating.

FRM

11-09-2015, 05:46 AM

It's sad that the deck can't draw as much as a Modern Living end, nor is allowed to slow down with thirst for knowledge and similar.
Anyway, I hear that a hypergenesys deck made day 2 in GP seatac and i'm dying to read the list (which of course is nowher to be found)
Does that player read the source?

TLK

08-22-2016, 03:49 PM

Anyone still playing this?

I'm going to build the following list, but wanted to get some input on how to tailor the sideboard to my local meta.

I've been playing this deck on cockatrice for the past week and it's hilarious fun. My question is, how in God's name do you sideboard? Not WHAT to sideboard, HOW? As in what to take out to put sb cards in? Seems whenever I remove anything much consistency is lost. Most of the time I don't even sb for game 2 unless I know the opponent will bring in something that I straight up lose to like Ensnaring Bridge.