one slice muslim. one slice 'merican. and all that comes between.

Like many reverts to Islam, my conversion did not come without its share of awkward and unsure feelings: Was I making the right choice? Would I still be accepted in my circles? How would I be perceived by friends and family?

Alhumdulillah, I had a supportive network of friends, and I have family members who, above all, respect my inherent right to make such a profound decision on my own.

graphic by Nicole Elmasry

Now, I understand the commonly-held belief that when we’re born we are, in the literal sense of the word, Muslims (in complete submission to Allah). That is why many consider themselves “reverts” instead of “converts”.

But in terms of being spiritually-identifying and religiously-practicing individuals, we are not anything. For most people, whatever religion (or non-religion) their parents ascribe to will be the one they also follow into young adulthood (and quite often far beyond). But this doesn’t mean they’ve necessarily chosen it.

For a great majority, they’ve gone along with it, without questioning.

Yet, being a practitioner of a religion requires conviction in the heart. As a certain Elder once reminded me:

Just because your mother or father are a certain religion doesn’t make you that religion. This is NOT DNA people! We do not inherit it!

Unfortunately, not everybody around the world is afforded this inherent right to choose their religious affiliation (or non-affiliation).

One of the biggest news stories circling the globe as of late is the case of Sudanese doctor Meriam Ishag, who was accused of committing adultery, apostatizing from Islam and, ultimately, sentenced to death. Though current rumors (which I pray are true!) announce Ibrahim will soon be freed from her unlawful incarceration, the distress this issue has caused in the international community is still highly tangible – and will continue to be for a long time.

How can we call ourselves The Religion of Peace when those who act as the talking heads and spokespeople of all Muslims continue to misappropriate, bend and twist the sayings of our dear Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and verses of the perfect Qur’an?

How can we stand up and say, “Islam is the religion of human rights”? Proclaim that it “provides rights and equality for women”? Defend it against naysayers who call Muslims, collectively, “terrorists” and “barbarians”? (Or maybe a better question might be, “Why should we have to defend it?” But, that’s for another post. ..)

And it boils down to this next sentence:

Trying to convince a person about something when they are adamant their opinion is correct is like trying to move the iceberg out of the way of the Titanic.

graphic by Nicole Elmasry

What we have is a giant ship of people (take your pick: Muslims, Christians, atheists, whatever) heading toward a giant problem (the issue of apostasy and its possible punishments).

As much as we’d like, we can’t move the issue (iceberg). If we did, another one would just come up at a later point in time, we’d be back at the beginning. Specifically, someone else would defect from their religion, possibly bringing a harsh verdict down upon themselves. And, in the case of Sudan, illegal.

That’s right. It is illegal, since the sentence directly contradicts Sudan’s 2005 Interim National Constitution, which

provides for freedom of religion in Sudan. In Article 38, on Freedom of Creed and Worship, the Constitution assures that “[e]very person shall have the right to the freedom of religious creed and worship … no person shall be coerced to adopt such faith, that he/she does not believe in, nor to practice rites or services to which he/she does not voluntarily consent.”

Sudan also ratified the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) in 1986. The ICCPR is legally binding and is monitored by the Human Rights Council. Furthermore, Sudan is a member of the UN, an organization that recognized the importance of freedom of religion or belief in the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights. In addition, Article 27(3) of Sudan’s Constitution expressly states that international human rights instruments ratified by Sudan shall become part of the Constitution [. . .] — Sudan Democracy First Group

Be that as it may, I am not here to argue the legal or penal code of Sudan (though it clearly needs enforcement).

What I want to do is draw attention to the basic insinuation that has landed Dr. Ishag in prison to begin with. The very idea that apostasy should be addressed by an Earthly council so that the apostate can be punished in the duniya (the physical life prior to the spiritual Hereafter).

All too often, people of various religious persuasion take it upon themselves to enact punishment (vengeance?) upon those who do not conform to the ideals or standards of society, theology, or indoctrination. Whoa, that was a loaded statement. Basically, it’s the mindset of

You are wrong. I am right. You don’t agree that I am right. I am going to punish/kill/imprison/maim/torture you.

But where did humans — HUMANS — get this balderdash idea that Allah needs humans to protect Him? Why would the Creator of the known and unknown universes, the artist of ultimate perfection, need an imperfect creature such as man to force atonement on others for not choosing to do something that is…….a CHOICE?

There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong.

But that verse is always given as a shield by those who oppose mistreatment of not only apostates, but anyone who chooses not to follow or conform to Islamic teachings. Let’s look at a few others that should serve to remind us that we, mere humans, are not the judge and jury of others when it comes to dealing with actions that directly (and predominately) affects a person’s soul.

Take, for example, Qur’an 5:54, which tells us that Allah does not NEED us, as he can replace us at any time with another believer:

O you who have believed, whoever of you should revert from his religion

– Allah will bring forth [in place of them] a people He will love and who will love Him [who are] humble toward the believers, powerful against the disbelievers [. . .] That is the favor of Allah;

He bestows it upon whom He wills [. . .]

Or Qur’an 9:67, which reminds us that if we forget Allah, He will forget about us:

[. . .] They have forgotten Allah, so He has forgotten them [. . .]

And yet, the basic truth is this:

There is NO surat (chapter) in the Qur’an, or verse therein, that advocates, prescribes, suggests or commands execution for the apostate of Islam.

Furthermore, the actions that were permitted by the Prophet (SAW) during his time to clarify vague descriptions in the Qur’an were done as example. Yet, neither the Prophet nor any of his companions ever sentenced anyone to death for renouncing their faith, though they had ample chance to do so. If the punishment were not only permissible, but indeed recommended, the Prophet would have been the first to cast a stone to set the example.

Now, am I saying there is no punishment for apostasy? No. The Qur’an tells us in 9:74 the punishment for apostasy is jahannam (Hellfire). But that punishment is Allah’s to dole out, and Allah’s alone.

So, this brings us back to our ship, heading straight for disaster, as nobody can agree on a solution to avoid the problem.

So, then, how do we avoid running into the iceberg?

We must find an answer that allows all people involved to be true to their respective beliefs, dogmas, ideas, interpretations. In simple terms, we must agree to disagree, while at the same time agree to take action based on a common – no, core – similarity. But what is that similarity?

The answer is the acknowledgement of humanity.

If you take a group of various theist/atheist scholars (or regular Joes) and ask them a pertinent, faith-based question, you’ll more than likely get a different answer from each attendee based on their ___________ (fill in the blank with your choice of beliefs, religion, interpretation of theological text, agenda, etc.).

But ask them a direct, logic-based question that you might ask a 1st-grader, aka Someone Who is Not Affected by Theological/Atheological Thinking, such as:

Is it right to kill another human?

graphic by Nicole Elmasry

Unless they are inherently evil, all of these individuals who can’t even agree on how the Earth was made can unanimously utter a single word:

If there is NO PHYSICAL VIOLENCE involved, is it right to kill another human?

Again, No.

And I think we can agree that it is wrong to take a mother from her children if she isn’t physically neglecting or harming them. Or a child from its father. Or to separate spouses because an intangible entity (government) decides their marriage is not valid by some inane ruling.

Therefore, the only logical solution that allows us to avoid certain catastrophe at the hands of too many captains at the helm is:

When in doubt, do no harm.

And, that, dear Readers is the bond of humanity that will save the ship from going down.

If we can’t agree on the “right” answer, we can at least agree that leaving apostates alone to answer for their own choices on Judgement Day is the least harmful answer in this Life. Perhaps by granting clemency, by truly following the peaceful path, the apostate may be brought round. Maybe he won’t. But, in the end, it’s not our decision to make. Because Allah brings to Islam whom He wills.

And if we execute a person who renounces his faith in Allah, what we’re ULTIMATELY doing is usurping the WILL OF ALLAH to guide him home.

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74 thoughts on “Take Back Islam: Freedom of Religion & Freedom from It”

I never really understood the idea of apostasy anyway. First of all the lie we muslims have been telling ours-elf is that islam is for everyone. Actually it really isn’t. And why would you want to include all, including the trash in your faith ? Apostasy is a wonderful choice, it really is. Not to inveigle, but Muslims should display paths to apostasy in a relatively open way, meaning if you really do think islam is not for someone, the path to departure should be left open.

But where did humans — HUMANS — get this balderdash idea that Allah needs humans to protect Him? Why would the Creator of the known and unknown universes, the artist of ultimate perfection, need an imperfect creature such as man to force atonement on others for not choosing to do something that is…….a CHOICE?

Did not Allah the Creator of the Heavens and Earth instruct us to forbid wrong and enjoin what is right?

“”And from among you there should be a party who invite to good and enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong, and these it is that shall be successful. ‘Al-i-‘lmran, No. 3, verse 104 The Holy Prophet (S) said: “The time when my Ummah (Muslim followers) merely count on others to enjoin right and forbid wrong, in fact, they have declared a fight against Allah, the Exalted.”

To say that we should not interfere in the so called human rights to commit apostasy towards Allah (who gave that rights? God?) is very careless and dangerous. Are we saying tye rights of humans trump the rights of the Lord? I would be very careful in lauding the West idea of human rights.

Now concerning apostasy, and the No Compulsion in Religion ayah, how do we reconcile the two? The verse Al Baqarah 256 refers to non Muslims rights to accept or reject the call to Islam. It is our duty as Muslims to convey the true message of Islam but it is completely forbidden to use threats or force if they decided to reject islam. The ayah is not talking about apostasy. Apostasy is treason and what is the global punishment for treason? Death!

There are many hadiths and examples of the Sahabah to show that apostasy is not a miniscule issue. Apostasy was considered a serious crime against Allah by the classical scholars whom have all reached an ijma'(concensus). What you failed to mention is why and how, when the greatest scholars of Islam have already reached an ijma’ and you don’t see any modern jurist disagreeing with this ijma’. How could you explain your argument that is completely against the ijma’ of the classical scholars who without doubt were more knowledgeable than many of us on this forum? How do you explain this hadith which is sahih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:Narrated ‘Ikrima:Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to ‘Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn ‘Abbas who said, “If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Apostle forbade it, saying, ‘Do not punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).’ I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Apostle, ‘Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'”

It was narrated from ‘Aishah that:The Messenger of Allah [SAW] said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a Muslim except in three cases: An adulterer who had been married, who should be stoned to death; a man who killed another man intentionally, who should be killed; and a man who left Islam and waged war against Allah, the Might and Sublime, and His Messenger, who should be killed, or crucified, or banished from the land.” [Nasai Vol. 5, Book 1, Hadith 4053]

Back to news above, I do not understand why they would punish her since she was never a Muslim.

I see your points. However, I don’t believe they are as straightforward as they are put out.

First of all, “forbidding” what is wrong and “enjoining” what is right. What happens when the Haraam Police go about “forbidding” what is wrong according their opinions (see: Saudi Arabia)? And “enjoining” what is right most often results in compulsion on the part of the “enjoiner”. Instead of leading and suggesting, many people turn to demanding and ordering. While it’s perfectly acceptable, and preferable, to counsel someone against leaving a religion by sharing with them the ultimate punishment, forcing them to stay in a religion and abide by its tenets is not going to be of any benefit to them….or the enjoiner.

For example, one’s prayers are only accepted if given from the heart with focus and intention. If a person only prays because he is forced to, does he still have his prayers accepted? (I don’t know, I’m asking.) Does the person who has forced him to pray get credit for simply forcing someone into submission?

Every act of faith must be done with conviction and the correct intention, for the sake of pleasing Allah alone. Therefore, the ayah about “no compulsion in religion” doesn’t just apply to forcing non-Muslims into becoming Muslims. It also directly addresses forcing Muslims to be practicing in and of themselves, as I discussed in the previous paragraph.

Now, as for apostasy being treason. In the definition of treason, we find it is an attempt to overthrow a government or use force or violence to change a political power, usually involving killing the highest power. Treason does not mean turning away from something other people believe to be true. And while treason is punishable by death, it is very difficult to prove this — and it is not common for people to be executed for it (anyone in recent history?). But most certainly, it is not treason for abandoning ideas or a lifestyle.

Regarding the hadiths, I have read these. The first one is attributed to Ibn Abbas, who is paraphrasing Prophet Muhammad’s (SAW) words. I still ask the question, if execution is the PREFERABLE form of dealing with apostasy, why did NOT the Prophet (SAW) ever act on it? Surely, there must be some example of he himself stoning/burning/beheading an apostate simply for the act of apostasizing.

And, as we see in the second hadith by Aishah (PBUH), there is a condition of execution. The person must leave Islam and WAGE WAR against Allah AND the Messenger. Surely you would agree that a majority of the time, when a person disowns Islam, they do not wage war against anything. They simply stop practicing or turn to another religion. And, even if there is “war” (in quotations, as I’m sure the definition of “war” is subjective — physical, intellectual, verbal), we see that death is only ONE of the options. Two others are crucifixion (which, I suppose, would result in death?) and banishment. In this case, I still claim banishment (or exile) as the preferable choice for those making a judgement.

Again, the point is we should always choose the route that is peaceful. Do no harm, if we can do no good. If a choice that preserves life is an option, why would one want to choose death for another living person (in terms of apostasy, not getting into the death penalty for other offenses)? Death is permanent. If we execute apostates, we remove the chance for them to return to Allah as believers, should He so will.

For those who choose to execute apostates, I believe it is out of personal offense to someone not believing the same way they do. What do I mean? Well, the sheik that calls for execution…is he personally being harmed (either in this life or the next) by someone turning away from Islam? Of course not. Another’s actions and decisions are not what we are judged by on llyum al-Qayaama. We are only judged by our own deeds and misgivings.

My motto in life: Live and let live. To each his own. Do no harm.

I don’t suppose to be more knowledgeable than scholars or even some of the people posting on this site; however, I do possess a head on my shoulders that believes in logic and humanity. And, you mention “Western” human rights. I’m not sure I understand what you mean. Human rights are universal, as the name says. The right to live peacefully, the right to live without fear, the right to practice and believe what you want as long as you don’t hurt anybody else, the right to work and earn a living to support yourself and your family, the right to clean water and food, the right to shelter, the right to education. These are all basic human rights: food/water, shelter, and peace. The West does not define these. Ask any 4-year-old roaming the streets, “Is it good for children in Africa to starve?” They will say, “No.”

Finally, she was put in jail because she married a Christian, which the authorities claimed was adultery (since they believe she was “born” a Muslim, as her father was Muslim). However, as I addressed in this post, religion is not something in your genes. She was raised Christian, and she believes in Christianity. Everything else is moot. They are punishing her not because she “turned her back on Islam”, but because she believes differently than they do. Which, in essence, isn’t that really what punishing apostates is about?

As a Muslim, I do not consider Islam as merely an idea or a lifestyle. Islam is the state of submission to the command and will of Allah. To turn away from Islam is to turn away from Allah, thus even more of an evil than say, betraying a country. Definition of treason is not limited only to betraying one’s country. Islamically, apostasy is an act of betrayal to the Almighty. I may sound like a radical to an ignorant Islamophobe but hopefully not to a fellow Muslim.

“The people who cry, “Death to Apostates!” are not doing so because Islam is offended. They are doing so because THEY are offended others don’t believe the same way they do.”

^^No, this isn’t the reason for most Muslims. Most Muslims are very offended because they truly love Islam, more than their mothers or their children, as they should. I myself do not prefer the death penalty but if Allah has decreed it for a certain crime, who am I to say it’s not my cup of tea.

Hyde, what do you mean Islam is not for everyone? In the Quran, we can clearly see that Allah is not only talking to the Muslims. Instead Allah is talking to all people. Islam unlike Judaism is not restricted to certain groups but is a call to all mankind, thus, is for everyone. Islam via the Quran is also talking to non-Islamic societies as well as the Muslim nation as a whole. There are many references to non-believers and idol-worshippers, to the people of the Book (Jews or the Tribe of Isreal, and the Christians).

Lastly, on the Western values and ideas on what stipulates as human rights…women allowed to walk topless without detention, gays allowed to wed, blasphemy without regards to religious sensitivity, billion dollar porn industry (I am aware there are Muslim consumers but who are the producers), adultery is not a crime as long as “consensual” adults involved, etc etc. I am certainly not talking about the rights to live sister. I am talking about the transgression of what is disguised as human rights.

Mrs. B, I understand what you mean. But to those who are not Muslim or do not share the same thoughts as you, Islam is an ideology or lifestyle. It mandates all aspects of how we live our lives.

The point is, you cannot argue religious points with someone who does not share the same viewpoints as you do. And while Allah does permit certain things, He does not PRESCRIBE them. And the only reference to punishment regarding apostasy in the Qur’an is Allah’s mention of “punishment in the Hereafter”. It most certainly has not been “decreed”. This would be to say that “polygamy was decreed” because it was allowed under certain circumstances.

Not to speak for him, but what I believe Hyde means by “Islam is not for everyone” is that it’s not “everybody’s cup of tea”. Not that Allah did not mean it for all people. However, in defense of that idea, Allah mentions in the Qur’an that if He so chose, ALL people would be Muslim. But He guides who He wills.

My point is not to say Allah does or does not permit something. However, do you honestly believe God wants us to kill others in His name simply for the act of disbelieving? For the other “two” permissible cases of execution, more was involved. Murder and adultery involve outsiders, not just the individual. And again, for “turning against Allah and His Messenger”, there are other options available. The same as with the first two cases. We are always encouraged to “forgive” first. Execution should be a last resort option, not a first option. And it should be in cases of the extreme when individuals are harmed or society is upended. Don’t you think that when two options are given, the least harmful would be the preferable?

As for the types of behavior you describe, those are not basic human rights. I’m talking about basic human rights as outlined in the Geneva Convention (http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cpr.html#Article%2023.2). What you describe are cultural permissives, which should not be allowed in most circumstances. However, I also believe these should not be allowed — across the board — not JUST disallowed for women. And the producers? Well, they’re of all nationalities, too. And be cautious about aligning something with a complete cultural value as opposed to a predominance. I don’t know where you’re from, but not all places in my country permit the kind of behavior that you mention.

Except, of course, premarital sex. Which, even in more “religious” societies, it seems to be the women that are punished for it, and not the men.

I agreed with almost all of your comment except the egregious, juvenile, sorry to say down right pathetic statement if live and let live. That statement I may sound sweet and pretty but is probably responsible for almost all the trash that exists in the post modern world !

“I can do whatever I want as long as I am not hurting anyone” The incestestous couple may find it alleviating.
The rest of us may want to live in caves.

(Sorry for the harshness but that hippie like statement really gets me going 🙂

Thank you, Ssiam for not going rabid and bearing with my side of the argument. I do see your points and alhamdulillah can safely say I am leaning towards some of the keynote essence although disagree on other parts.

I am from Malaysia, raised in the UK, moved back to Malaysia and shall be moving indefinitely inshallah to Saudi Arabia.

Mrs.B, no point in going rabid. We each have our own, valid, opinions. Like I said above, you can’t change a person’s mind when their opinion is engrained in them and hits the core of what they fundamentally believe. I believe it’s important to discuss and debate (responsibly and courteously), while learning from each other! 🙂

Mrs.B, no point in going rabid. We each have our own, valid, opinions. Like I said above, you can’t change a person’s mind when their opinion is engrained in them and hits the core of what they fundamentally believe. I believe it’s important to discuss and debate (responsibly and courteously), while learning from each other! 🙂

Hyde, I am, to a point, a hippie. But I don’t believe in “live and let live” unequivocally. Perhaps I didn’t make my view clear. I’m talking in terms of how one practices their beliefs, lifestyle, etc. Live and let live.

If someone is doing something to harm another person or create chaos, then the circumstances must be addressed. As for the “incestuous couple”, it predominates culture where I live. It is one of the main causes of sickle cell disease in “Arabia”, as you like to refer to it.

In the West, we’ve basically outlawed the practice. Yet, Allah has made it permissible to marry family members, starting with first cousins. So, if Allah permits it, while I may not like it or agree with the practice, the ones who do it are entitled to their lives.

If a father/daughter or son/mother relationship were to occur in any country, it is something not permitted by Allah OR law. Therefore, it should/would/could/must be stopped.

Live and let live, by my practice, means don’t force your beliefs on me, and I won’t force my beliefs on you. Respect each individual’s right to choose what is best for their own life.

This is the first time I have heard of incest being rampant in the Middle East. Could you give evidence, Siam? Third degree relatives such as first cousins and half aunts are surely not incest. Although unfavorable due to higher risk (debatable) of congenital disorder and disabilities, it isn’t incest per Islam. The Prophet pbuh himself married his cousin Zainab bint Jahsh. Although, by permitting such marriages Islam does not encourage them. It advocates the cementing of social relations through marriages between totally unrelated families. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) once told one of his Companions to choose a wife from a tribe different to his, and then to choose for his son a wife from a third tribe, and to seek for his second son a girl from yet another tribe.

From Wikipedia:
The Quran gives specific rules regarding incest, which prohibit a man from marrying or having sexual relationships with:
his father’s wife[123]
his mother,[124] or stepmother[125]),
his mother-in-law, a woman from whom he has nursed, even the children of this woman[124]either parent’s sister (aunt),[124]his sister, his half sister, a woman who has nursed from the same woman as he, his sister-in-law (wife’s sister) while still married. Half relations are as sacred as are the full relations.[124]his niece (child of sibling),[124]his daughter, his stepdaughter (if the marriage to her mother had been consummated), his daughter-in-law.[124]The main differences (apart from relationships between a man and his daughter) are:
1.a woman from whom he has nursed
2. a woman who has nursed from the same woman as he
3. a niece

I will post a few links here; please keep in mind, besides incest (no matter your definition) homosexuality is also rampant. If you want to read about it, you can Google it. However, it’s common knowledge in the Gulf and India. Young boys and houseboys are used quite often.

Wow….this has gotten WAAAAY off-topic of apostasy. Still. The links are below:

Ohhhh you were refering to rape incest. I assumed you were talking about consensual incest like marriage within the close knit family. I was shocked before because certainly I have never heard any brother and sister or father and daughter or even uncle and niece getting married in the ME. Yes rape in the family isn’t uncommon Astaghferullah….domestic violence especially is a non issue in many Muslim households. A father can beat his daughter just because she was “disrespectful” and if she reports to the police, what would be the outcome?

Well, that’s what incest is….it doesn’t have to involve marriage. And I tried to.find the source, but couldn’t; there are still some backward villages where sons inherit their fathers’ wives, and so on. And don’t even get me started about domestic violence. Not only have I been subjected to it, but I’ve volunteered at a shelter service and written abundantly in the issue. It isn’t just a “family” issue in the Middle East, it is hard to find an advocate elsewhere, too.

(the ship is not going down, but already shattered. We are just gasping for breath in the icy waters of oblivion and godlessness)

Apostasy is an overt thing, because it is an alternative. Yes it is so. Because Islam is not for everyone, despite the self-aggrandizing lie Muslims tell them. The issue of taking Islam is guidance for life is a choice, the greatest choice anybody can ever make. Most of choices are already enumerated from us but the choice of submission to the creator is a powerful choice, He guideteh he who He guideteh.

Besides why would you want certain people who would bring hypocrisy and sophistry to the deen to bother to be called Muslim sin the first place? Islam is not meant for everybody or a compulsive religion. Why are people Muslims? Because they are born into the deen. They follow whatever lackadaisical algorithm that they saw their parents doing. No reflection, no introspection, no inner jihad.

All religions have gone through mass apostasy and so will Islam. They are Muslims, almost all of them born Muslims that are closeted atheists, they just don’t know it. And the punishment should not even exist and for the most part it does not. It cannot be taken as an insult to “Islam” if one does not chooses to be part of the creed in the first place. Why would anybody want to coerce hypocritical people to follow your creed; do you not respect your creed more than just that? So the hypocrite and cause slander and destruction from within? Still to of day I believe the greatest enemies of Islam are the hypocrites, liberal and fundamentalist, the degenerates and the neo-Kwarjites.

I believe in the death penalty gleefully and un-remorsefully. But to punish those that do not wish to partake is opening wounds of insecurity and hysteria. Islam does not need Muslims, Muslims, however many or few need Islam. Islam came for the momin, if he takes it as his credo, so be it, if not, so be it.

Before the whore of democracy became manifest in everybody’s vein, Islam gave you the freedom of religion.

The world is coming to an end. The signs of the dajaal are ubiquitous and conspicuous, so let’s not mourn of losses, but appreciate the exercise in freedom.

This is precisely the point I’m trying to make. The people who cry, “Death to Apostates!” are not doing so because Islam is offended. They are doing so because THEY are offended others don’t believe the same way they do.

It’s shameful, as a Muslim, to know Islam is the greatest proponent of peace; yet, it’s practitioners are some of the most violent human beings that walk the Earth, committing atrocities in the name of the religion.

While I don’t agree with the death penalty (no debates, thank you!), I accept that it is permissible in the eyes of God for certain reasons. Yet, it also only given as ONE of the options. Ultimately, the other options are FORGIVENESS, BANISHMENT, and DO NO HARM. To forgive is divine. We get the credit. To banish is permissible. We have made a public statement of disagreement with a person’s actions, but we’ve allowed them to live and have the right to make their own choices. And doing no harm should always be the first priority.

The world is ending, if not even more quickly because people are forcing along the “signs”. But Allah does not need us to protect Him. He is the Judge and Jury, and on Ilyum al-Qayaama, we will stand before Him with our impurities laid bare.

And, of course, I’m referring to “banishment” and “do nothing” in terms of apostasy. I’m not saying let murderers walk free. They should be punished, though the death penalty is not my choice of punishment (again, no debates).

Rape used to be a capital offense, but it is not any longer unless it results in the death of the victim.

Armed robbery and home invasion are not capital offenses (legally OR Islamically); therefore, why would he be given the death penalty for committing these crimes?

Now, if you’re comparing the length and severity of his sentence to the swiftness and “ease” of execution, his overall sentence seems a bit…..overkill.

7 life sentences PLUS 270 years? Usually, one life sentence is doled out for one count. It appears he must have raped his victim 7 times (one life sentence for each)? However, it also seems the judge was extra harsh due to the “stand-off” issue and him taking hostages for a few hours at the apartment complex.

Yet, I don’t agree the death penalty would be fair in this case. I believe life in prison with no possibility of parole is sufficient. Nobody died during the event, and even if the victim wants him dead (which I’m sure she probably does), rape still remains a non-capital offense. If it WERE a capital offense, while I don’t agree with the death penalty, the execution would be a fair punishment.

The 7 life sentences + 270 extra years is just making a point. Obviously, he’s not serving 1000 years.

Please clarify why you feel HE is being treated unfairly with this sentence?

If you are born into a Muslim family, how does that make you a Muslim? It doesn’t. Each person has the CHOICE of religion. It is not up to their parents to say your are Muslim, or in my case Catholic. I made the choice for myself as everyone is afforded. Otherwise you are just blindly following a culture and ritual, as most people do, because apparently it is hard to have an original thought or explore ideas that don’t confirm your upbringing. If a person born to a Muslim family chooses Islam, great! If not, this is not apostasy, it is his or her choice. Once the choice is made then it is apostasy, and I agree with Siam’s article 100%. (except I am fond of the death penalty for crimes against humanity because evil people exist and will spread violence and pain until they are stopped) But I think we need to redefine what an apostate is to begin with.

Each person has the CHOICE of religion. That’s true. But, a muslim family, especially parent has responsibility to guide all the member of family to be good muslim, to obey Islam rule, and keep them in Islam forever. Why? It’s parent responsibility, and Allah will ask about it in hereafter. When the child doesn’t obey his parent, so it’s the child mistakes. the main point, parent has done good deed for his family, to lead them ( the member of family ) in Islam. In Islam history, we know about Kan’an ( Noah’s son ) who didn’t obey to his father, and Allah said to Prophet Noah, ” your son and your wife aren’t your family ), becouse they aren’t muslim. The summary from this, Muslim Parent shouldn’t allow his family to refuse from Islam.
Just a little mind. I know you know more about it, My Sister. Wallaahu a’lam bishowab.

Yes, Muslim parents should guide their children and teach them the ways of Islam. Yet, on Ilyam al-Qayyaama, if my child has not performed his prayers all of his life, he must answer for his inaction. I should never stop encouraging, reminding, impressing, or guiding. However, I cannot ACT for my child.

I will obtain good deeds for teaching my children, but I do not incur bad ones if my children then stray or renounce Islam as adults.

Our goal is to impart the truth, beauty and wisdom of Allah and Islam through a lifestyle that shows grace, humility, and faith. That way, as adults, our children will have learned to love Islam. One who loves Islam and practices it faithfully does NOT apostate from it.

As Hyde mentioned, many of the apostates come from non-practicing families. Should they be executed because they were never shown the proper way to begin with? Being considered “Muslim” at birth is in error. Just because you’re born into a family that practices Islam (or calls themselves Muslim) does not mean you will practice it. I know this from PERSONAL experience. I know many people who were born into Muslim families, but they don’t practice it properly.

Yet, the majority of people who don’t practice it, if they’ve learned correctly and been shown the truth and beauty of Islam, still don’t RENOUNCE it.

The ones who RENOUNCE it have:

1) not been shown/taught the proper, fair and beautiful way it positively affects the lives of Muslims,

2) been hurt, neglected, discriminated against in the NAME of Islam,

or 3) had it FORCED upon them in such a rigid manner that it defies logic (see: Saudi Arabia).

Like Corbin states, “We must define WHAT an apostate is to begin with.”

Absolutely, One should teach their children about Islam and how to be a good Muslim. And I do not harbor hard feelings for my mother teaching me Catholicism and showing me how to be faithful. I admired her strength and live by many of the lessons being a religious Catholic taught me. But ultimately we cannot guide our children this is up to Allah. It is impossible to not to allow someone to believe or disbelieve in something.

1) It is permanent.Too many people have been put in jail, only to later find out they are innocent. If they are executed, how do we give them back their lives?

2) In the United States, the forms of execution are not always error-proof. This crosses the line of execution into torture, which is abhorrent.

3) Allah tells us it is better to forgive than seek retribution or revenge. While He permits a life for a life, and I DO agree this is fair and just punishment because Allah has made it so, I personally believe it is better for ME to forgive than take my right and end another’s life.

I don’t know how I would react in that period. Possibly hypocritically, as I am human. But since I’m fundamentally – to my very core – against the death penalty, I hope that I could settle for life in prison instead of taking my right. After all, a life for a life doesn’t bring back the first life.

This is MY opinion, and I am NOT trying to force it on anyone or persuade anybody to change theirs. I am simply clarifying WHY I feel the way I do.

I have heard that some people think it should be up to the family, through the court system, to do the choosing of what happens to the murderer (Oh wait is this the Shariah!? Pay blood money or be put to death). I can get with that.

What if the rape victim was a child who was just walking innocently to school? A 3 year old? A 12 year old? What if the victim was a disable person? Blind? Mute? What if the perpetrator raped and sodomized the victim with painful objects? How about gang rapes?

Yesterday I read in the local newspaper, 2 teenaged girls were gang raped by more than 30 men who were high on drugs including a father and his son. http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/four-charged-over-gang-rape-of-teenage-girls
I hope they are caught and killed based on Islam as well as my own feelings for my daughter and her safety. Islamic law is based on the philosophy of deterrents for others by making examples of the criminals. Unfortunately, Malaysia prescribes only 30 years in prison for rape criminals. Or marrying the victim off to her rapist…

Just as you said capital punishment goes against your fundamental nature, it equally but oppositely flows with my nature. It is a humane punishment, a perfect punishment. Now of course where and the when can be bated and I am also quite aware of the cases of many innocents going to the gallows and gross miss appropriation of the punishment, but in principle I absolutely support (dare I say even I be a Robespierre).

Overall the best manifestation of chastisement is as sister Corbin stated “Blood Money”…oh snap that’s shariah!!!!

Rape should be a capital offense (not for whores though). Then maybe the video made more sense. Obviously multiple life sentences are to exemplify the severity of the crime, but the point I was making it was not fair on anybody. Do you know how much it would cost the state to keep this guy in prison? I sure don’t want my taxes going to waste on that. And second of all what will he do behind bars for 80+ odd years? A swift death would be humane and more so a public execution would ward of any other smart alecs.

I’m well aware that he US, while having three percent of the world’s population, has nearly quarter of the world’s prison population. But one can use that same reasoning to see why is there is so much crime. SO much for democracy solving all the problems.

Corbin: Yes, that’s perfectly acceptable. If a family chooses to take a life for a life, I am not going to fight their choice. What I am saying is in the same circumstances, I’m not sure I could make the same decision.

Mrs. B: Marrying the victim off to her rapist is detestable, and yes, I’ve heard of the practice. How could ANY caring, compassionate, logical human being believe that could possibly end in ANYTHING positive????

As for the other situations, this is precisely the reason I don’t like to get involved in death penalty discussions. I don’t KNOW how I would react if it happened to my daughter. I do believe that, since the death penalty is permissible, such cases are ones where it is worthy of implementation. But if it were me who were raped, I don’t think I’d be able to to call for the death of the person who raped me.

Actually, I know many rape and molestation victims, some have been personal friends and/or family members. None of them have wished death on their violators.The greatest thing they wished was to move forward, to attempt to heal from the trauma. I believe, in the same situation, I would merely want the same.

I have been through some very terrible situations. But I’ve never wished death upon ANYBODY who’s hurt me. I can’t even say that I hate them, even though it would be justifiable. It’s just the person that I am. I’m not advocating everybody share my opinion.

Hyde: Please, PLEASE, PLEEEEEEEEASE don’t justify rape for “whores”. I don’t know that you classify as a whore, be it prostitute, women who aren’t virgins, Western women, but it doesn’t matter. No woman….I repeat NO WOMAN…deserves to be raped. Or man, for that matter. And if the punishment is suitable for one perpetrator, it’s suitable for ALL perpetrators of the same kind. (Yet another reason I don’t agree….the death penalty is subjective.) Rape is NOT about sex. It is about control, demeaning a person’s humanity.

وَإِذْ أَخَذَ رَبُّكَ مِنْ بَنِي آدَمَ مِنْ ظُهُورِهِمْ ذُرِّيَّتَهُمْ وَأَشْهَدَهُمْ عَلَىٰ أَنْفُسِهِمْ أَلَسْتُ بِرَبِّكُمْ ۖ قَالُوا بَلَىٰ ۛ شَهِدْنَا ۛ أَنْ تَقُولُوا يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ إِنَّا كُنَّا عَنْ هَٰذَا غَافِلِينَ
( surah al-a’rof verse 172)
And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam – from their loins – their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], “Am I not your Lord?” They said, “Yes, we have testified.” [This] – lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, “Indeed, we were of this unaware.”
All the human were muslims before they are born to this world.
Why are apostates executed in Islam? Doesn’t that contradict freedom of belief?
In Islamic terms, apostasy means for one to openly express and show his/her renouncement of religion and usually ends up in others being encouraged to do the same. The punishment for apostasy doesn’t apply to one who has turned away from religion but doesn’t announce it. Therefore, it is correct to say that the apostate is punished for an act that has to do with society, not merely because of some personal beliefs.
The apostate violates others’ rights to have an Islamic environment in society and is a threat to the beliefs of normal people who aren’t religious experts and aren’t capable of answering all of their religious needs on their own. In the advent of Islam, a group of its enemies planned on falsely accepting Islam in the beginning of the day and turning away from it at the end of the day, undermining the faith of the believers and weakening their religious spirit as a result.[i]
In order to prevent this threat, Islam has assigned a grave punishment for those who do so, although it is also very hard to prove such a matter, to the extent that this Islamic law was put to practice only a few times during the advent of Islam. Hence, one can say that the mental affect of this punishment plays a far more important role in keeping the Islamic society healthy and clean than the punishment itself.

I very much agree with you Sister Fatmawaty. In fact, the more prominent apostates such as Ali Sina, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Salman Rushdie, Wafa Sultan, Ibn Warraq and the list goes on are advocators of hatred towards Islam, and this is no longer about personal issue but a threat to the Muslim society as well as Islam. The wisdom of Allah in assigning such a harsh punishment for these apostates is just and correct.

These are the academic apostates and they are plenty, but what about the home grown ones ? There are literally hundreds of blogs by young ex muslims who were born Muslims, grow up Muslims, went to the mosque, etc, did all their catechisms etc yet in their mid twenties have openly renounced Islam ? Some had conflict within themselves, some grew up in lackadaisical homes, some drew their one ego to the deen and when it does not come off, oh just like that felt whisper leaves.

Kullu ro’sin ro’yun ( every one has different mind),I don’t mind, someone agree with me or disagree. It is no problem. I know , I’m not a good muslimah, anyhow I was born in Muslim family. That’s right. I’m not an executioner, so it’s not my duty to do the punishment. Of course I wouldn’t do that. But, you may read about caliph Abu Bakar, who ever againt the apostates. Wallahu a’lam.

I very much agree with you Sister Fatmawaty. In fact, the more prominent apostates such as Ali Sina, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Salman Rushdie, Wafa Sultan, Ibn Warraq and the list goes on are advocators of hatred towards Islam, and this is no longer about personal issue but a threat to the Muslim society as well as Islam. The wisdom of Allah in assigning such a harsh punishment for these apostates is just and correct. The fact is, many of us wouldn’t know if someone turns their back from Islam unless they actually announced it and in most cases declare war against Islam as to solidify their apostasy. This is no longer about personal choice, this is terrorism against Islam. The death penalty is just and correct.

Ayaan Hirsi:
In 2007, she told Reason Magazine that Islam should be “defeated” and when asked to clarify whether she meant “radical” or “militant” Islam, she made herself very clear. “No. Islam, period. Once it’s defeated, it can mutate into something peaceful. It’s very difficult to even talk about peace now. They’re not interested in peace.”

I understand your points sister, but I have to disagree on your second point.Although I advocate the death penalty for criminals who deserves it Islimically, I cannot throw the first stone because in Islam, there is no such thing as vigilante. It belongs to the authority of the country.

Sister, I’m not referring to vigilantism. I’m referring to being executioner.

Surely you’re aware that in many countries, the executioner is someone of the general public. Sometimes it is a prison guard, but they are moved from prison to prison. Usually, they are unidentifiable to the witnesses of the execution DUE to retribution and vigilantism by family members. This is still in effect in first-world countries as of today. If you’re interested in learning more, just Google “How are executioners chosen”. You’ll see the history, stories of former executioners and modern-day practice.

Now, with that being said, would you be willing to act as executioner for a person sentenced to death? Not for apostasy. Not for rape. For ANY reason.

I know I could never do it. That’s a main reason I can’t advocate the punishment, even though I acknowledge and accept it is permitted by Allah.

A short story:

Where I’m from in the States, there is a museum/entertainment venue called Ripley’s Believe It or Not (you may have heard of it). They display weird facts and replicas of the world’s strangest people and things, as well as scientific displays and such.

Once I went with a friend. We ended up in an area that was a replica of a prison. My friend walked ahead and was looking at things while I read about different items. Then, they said, “Hey! Come over here and see this!”

I joined them, and we stood before a room that was dark. I didn’t know what to expect. Then, they pulled a lever, and the room lit up to show someone being electrocuted in the electric chair. Of course, it wasn’t real. But it didn’t matter.

I screamed, covered my eyes, but I couldn’t get that image out of my mind…until now. It’s not something I’d EVER want to witness (they call for witnesses), let alone be the one who pulls the lever.

Now, the electric chair is used less often these days than lethal injection. But, it doesn’t matter to me. I don’t think I could ever be the one who takes the life of another person………I don’t think I have the capability.

To be honest, Ssiam, I couldn’t pull the trigger and take another person’s life. I haven’t reach to that point of being totally inclement, inshallah never. Having said that, I cannot refuse what Allah has prescribed (as what I believe). Let me give an example. I could never be a doctor. Why? Because the sight of blood would cause me to faint. But we need doctors so those who are braver than me and have the skills should/could be doctors. We have brave men and women protecting us from any sort of enemy attack, our soldiers. I could never be a soldier. All I could be is a wife and mother and some other stuff. And I would feel better knowing that my daughter lives in a country where rapists are killed and criminals are locked away. I need my government to stand up to what is right so that my family and I as well as the rest of the Ummah could live in peace.

P.s I used to love that show, Ripleys Believe it or Not. Not any more, I suddenly became fearful of stretchy limbs and big huge pipes in people’s abdomens.

I understand your point. However, I can’t stomach a punishment that I couldn’t enact myself. And in my country, rapists are no longer sentenced to death, so that’s a moot point.

I have researched the death penalty for.numerous years. I have read the statistics and horror stories of misapplied executions. The discrimination between races, genders and wealths.

Perhaps if the system were infallible and always carried out to the letter of Allah’s prescription, I *might* be in favor of it. *Might*. But a flawed system that fails one, fails all.

What can I say? Allah made me the way I am. I didn’t go out searching for a reason to not like the death penalty. I have been this way since as long as my memory allows me to remember. However, this does NOT mean I don’t believe it is permissible or am saying anything against Allah. I am merely giving my opinion, not trying to persuade others to abandon their beliefs.

I wish the Ummah could live in peace. I wish the media and.politicians would let us alone to be who we are — ALL of us, not just Muslims.

Ayaan, has gained some level of fame for her hatred and I think this the only reason she does it … to be famous. She has been shown to be a liar about who she, where she comes from, and how Islam was implemented in her life or even what her name is. All she does is lie.

Yes, you are correct, sister. All Ayaan does is lie. And so does the rest of her ilk. However, do you know how much their lies have impacted on the Muslims as a whole? Islamophobe is no longer uncommon. In fact, as of now, the only religion in the world that can be torn to pieces without prejudice is Islam. How many Muslims in the West have or are facing hate crimes that would sometimes make them feel being Muslims are just not worth it? The degree of persecution some Muslims face could even result in them apostating. Extremist have been knowned to use the lies of these apostates for justifying their evil acts and agendas. People act horribly and sometimes dangerously towards us because of these lies.

I grew up in Birmingham, UK more than a decade ago but the phobia against Muslims and Islam simply didn’t exist. But now? Alhamdulillah I am no longer living in Birmingham because a recent news report has left me perplexed and sympathetic towards my Muslim brothers and sisters in UK. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-26482599

I am a huge believer that at the very least, apostates who wage war againt Islam deserves the worst punishment ie death by the justice of court (not by vigilantes).

I believe rape is the worst crime and is in rank with torture, and murder as well as kidnapping, terrorism and treason. And Islamically, these crimes deserves only the capital punishment, death. There are two classes of punishments, hadd and ta’zir. The Hadd is a measure of punishment defined by the Qur’an and the Sunnah. In Ta’zir, the court, is allowed to use its discretion in regard to the form and measure in which such punishment is to be inflicted.

Look at how Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) dealt with the rapists:
Narrated Wa’il ibn Hujr:”When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her. She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah. When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.He (the Prophet) said to the woman: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. And about the man who had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death.He also said: He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38, Number 4366)

I am aware the punishment for rape is not mentioned explicitly in the Quran. However, Allah said in Quran 5:32,” If anyone kills a person – unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land – it would be as if he killed all people. And if anyone saves a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all people” please refer to the ayah “spreding mischief” which by definition causing grave social injustice that affects the community as a whole and destabilize the society. Rape causes trauma not only to the victim but the damage done to her families especially her parents, to have your most treasured child ravaged by a criminal is beyond forgiveness. And once a rape crime happens, the society will no longer feel safe, who will be the next victim? Will my daughter be a rape victim (laa samahallah) ? Thus the mischief perpetrator should be punished indefinitely.

Since the punishment for rape doesn’t exist in the Noble Quran, but exists in the Sayings of our beloved Prophet peace be upon him, then the verdict or law for punishing the rapist according to Noble Verses 4:59 and 4:83 must come from our beloved Prophet’s sayings.

“O ye who believe! Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to God and His Apostle, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination. (The Noble Quran, 4:59)”

Mrs. B, I singled out Ayan because she is the only one that I know a lot about. And yes they are all liars. I do believe that it is to gain fame on most accounts. It is very en vouge for people to, after being raise a cultural Muslim or even converting to Islam, apostate just so they can lie about your experience all in the hopes of gaining fame. It is sick! And yes I do know the impact of the Islamophoia she and her ilk monger. I have lived the backlash here in the South of the US where folks get all their news and info from an anti-Islam, pro-Israel propaganda show called Fox News. But the crime of apostasy is separate from the crimes that these people commit afterward. So should we kill the apostate because he/she might become a hate monger? We don’t punish crimes that might happen, do we? Should we? On the matter of Rape. If you have irrefutable evidence to prove it, put the rapist down like the animals it is.

“It is very en vouge for people to, after being raise a cultural Muslim or even converting to Islam, apostate just so they can lie about your experience all in the hopes of gaining fame. ”

This sick phenomenon is not new. During the Prophet (peace be upon him) time, there were munafiks or hypocrites who would pretend to be Muslims to inflict detriment on the society. I believe nowadays, there are munafiks who pretend to be Muslims and later “denounce” Islam solely to gain fame and destroy Islam. Nowadays, there are many who falsely claims to be Muslims and later “reject” Islam solely to gain fame. Ergun Mehmet Caner is one of them.

This is why I participate in online discusions. Alhamdulillah i am able to increase my knowledge and dismiss the wrong informations I used to have.

On apostasy, Allah said

Verily, those who believed and then disbelieved, then believed and then disbelieved and increased in disbelief, never will Allah forgive them nor will He guide them to a right way.

The minor apostates is only harming himself and will be dealt with by Allah. I stand firm on my belief that major apostates who combine his rejection of the faith with high treason ie attack Islam whether verbally, “scholarly”, or physically should be put to death.

I understand. Differentiating between “minor” and “major” apostates is interesting. I know death has been prescribed to those who wage war on Islam. I also think this verse is difficult and dangerous.

Perhaps the so-called Islamic groups like al Qaeda and such use it as a basis for launching attacks on thousands of innocents around the world simply because they don’t practice or believe the same exact things. I don’t know, but I could see it used in that manner.

Waging war is a subjective idea. I am afraid of any person/group that claims a right to take life from other humans based on a difference of religious opinion. While some may say, “They offend the Prophet (SAW)…” or such……..who is to say you/we/us are not the next targets?

Anyway, I see we both understand and acknowledge each others’ opinions, which is of utmost importance in a civil discussion. We must only agree that at this point in time, we hold tightly to different degrees of either understanding/meaning/implementation for certain actions. And that is okay. We both believe Allah is just and fair, and we know that only He knows the best way.

May Allah guide us all in understanding His religion better day by day, and insha’Allah make us better Muslims along the way. Ameen.

I reviewed the link. It seems pretty straightforward that death for apostates is not advocated unless they’ve taken up arms and are actively fighting to overcome the society (which then becomes definable “high treason”).

Extremist groups such as Al Qaeda and Boko Haram attack civilians and non combatants which, if they refer to the Quran, is haram. Islamic law forbids aggressive warfare. The Quran says “But if the enemies incline towards peace, do you also incline towards peace. And trust in God! For He is the one who hears and knows all things.” (8:61) The Quran ” 2:190, says, “Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not aggressors.”

The fact that the Quran clearly says avoid being the aggressors should be enough for any fool to stay clear from killing innocent Non Muslims who didnt take up arms against Islam or present themselves as threats to the Muslim society.

Of course it should. But we both know people glean meaning from text as they wish to understand it. If so chosen, anyone could find any meaning in doctrine. And we also know they spout Quran as defense of their actions. What any fool “should” do and what those fools actually do are to different things.

Only Allah can guide us. He guided a man who was once a staunch enemy of Islam to be the amongst the greatest men in the entire history of our religion, feared by enemies loved by the truth seekers – Umar Al Khattab ra.

P.s This nasheed kept bringing tears to my eyes. We need men like Umar Al Khattab may Allah be pleased with him.

Okay this post is getting dizzying [a new word ?] so I will address here:

@SamIam I HAVE AND ALSO WILL NEVER ADVOCATE OR SANCTION RAPE AGAINST ANYBODY. PERIOD.

At the same time I will not depart from my common sense. If a porn star is molested or “stared” at obviously I’m not going to become a bleeding heart. I have have reservation about the word whore. I think it’s time we put that in the academic lexicon.It’s apparently a way of life and a career choice. And please sister don’t insult anyone of us by saying “western women”. That’s a poor choice of words since I am part of the west. Happily and gleefully. Let’s not be so coy as to think sexual liaisons and peccadillos are not “grandly manifested” in the Mulsim communities, i,.e. Love Inshallha and it’s etc.

Hippies were a bulwark against the stringent but decaying culture of the pre-to post WWII era. It was cool to be a liberal then on college campus, to advocate gay rights, free love and all that “grass”. Now it is has degenerated into a monstrosity. If you dare purport even seemingly innocuous conservative/traditional views, your eschewed like the plague.

And that’s what I am [after my initial “hippie” bandwagonering] a traditionalist. Not “religious”, not “conservative”. (A believer in Kings and queens traditionalist)

Closing off the main topic: yes death is for those who commit treason against the state of Islam. There is no Islamic state, no Kalifa, no application of Sharia by qualified and “zeitgeist aware” jurists, [an oxford comma ?] and thus punishment is null and void. But if it was legislative it would be grand welcome to the compost hypocritical form of system we have today, but as you said, it will be mostly the poor the will end up walking down the plank [i.e. women homosexuals, petty criminals), as as usual the secular elites will weasel their way out.

Personally I don’t think you should formulate your views on capital punishment based your “faints” (eee not trying to sound abrasive lol). I myself is not a big fan of blood either, but the punishment should hold. And no I don’t have Gibson death wish, but just because I may or may not see myself under the noose, I should not advocate the halt of of the punishment itself. Even the “spirit of the law” could work as bulwark for people who may think of themselves committing that act.

The real incestuous couples will come around soon enough. They already have brothels where one can make love to animals in Denmark. As far as Arabia is considered, take away their drinks, their oil, their women, there mostly jahyjail. These nejdis won’t stop until they make Mecca the next Vegas.

I am Western as well. Born and raised in Alabama and Tennessee. And I know exactly how Western women are thought of by men (and.women) outside of the Western hemisphere. I’ve heard it directly, as well as had.it directed toward me because I am an American woman.

Now, I don’t classify being stared at as molestation. If a woman wears revealing clothing, people (both men and women) will stare. People also stare at you if you wear hijab and niqab……and I’m talking about the SAME people, for the SAME reason. Men stare me down all the time over here….with my husband.standing next to me.

But a porn star being molested….or assaulted sexually…..is not justifiable because of her profession. Many women are forced into these professions by the men around them or because of no other choice. And, yes, I’m talking about porno actresses and actors. Sex trafficking is one of the most popular forms of obtaining such performers.

-15 billion dollar industry is not a taboo anymore. I wrote elsewhere in depth about pornography with details, but I won’t do it here. Like sodomy/homosexuality, pornography isn’t really a big ideal anymore since it’s rampant and fully acknowledged. I am not advocating the grand old misogynistic lie that “women” ask for it because of what they do or they way they dress. I’m just being sensible; a porn-star gets beaten up, I’m just not gonna feel too bad about it (suffice to say). And also the idea that pornstars (lol they prefer to be called “adult entertainers”) don’t have simplistic daddy issues anymore as the stereotypes used to be. Some of them are college educated and see it as sane choice of career.
(The more Muslims are ignorant about porngrapghy the more it will bite them in few years time, just like the issue of sexual deviancy).

Yes I do understand what you mean about the image of Western Women in the East. It’s seems they are condemned to be “loose” until proven otherwise. LOL Ayatollah Khomeni even had special fatwas reserved for French women (then again can you blame him ?). In a way the West itself is to blame for this, because of the routine image being sent via films, music, etc.
(LOL there was a time when staring at a white women was hanging offense for “darkies”).

-There is contest on this blog. Nobody is massaging their ego. We more or less are in agreement with the general flow of comments so yes naturally the point is not bleak, superfluous back and forth nasty commentaries and Alumudilla for that 🙂

– Again the capricious nature of sexuality and sex is not worth to delve here, but one moot point (which I think perhaps sister Corbin may have mentioned in an earlier blog entry), in pre-Islamic Arabia, women that have fallen on hard times or were just of “whorish” nature, had the right to welcome multiple men in their housing over a course of a timer period. But when she became pregnant, she had the CHOICE of naming any of the men as the father, the man, had to accept.This way at least the progeny had some modicum of chance having some sort of livelihood provided for him/her.