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Re: PD Referendum - Mike Dunleavy Jr.

How about the fact Dunlevy has been always been alot better player then Croshere and more productive.He was better in College and he's been better in the Pros.Dunlevy right now is a borderline starter depending on the team and would be a key player off the bench.Croshere never been somebody I though who could be a starter for any team for any given lenght of time. At one point he was a solid bench player but thats it. I just think its a bad comparison.They play different positions, they have different skills.The only thing they have in common is niether one has lateral quickness which makes them poor one on one defenders.

Really? Always better? How about from 3pt%? How about REB/48? (in case you didn't notice, that's 1 outside skill and 1 inside skill, so you'd assume each had an edge in one of those categories)

Even THIS year AC was a 12+ R48 guy while Mike was only at 7.7. AC last year for Indy was an 11.1 R48 guy.

From 3 both have had better and worse years. AC got hurt 2 years ago and shot 26%. However Dun just put up a 28% spot in back to back years WITHOUT injury. AC put 3 years around that injury season of 39.1, 38.9, and 38.6 from 3 for the Pacers. Dun has had 2 seasons over 35% - a 37% his 2nd year and a 38.8 his 3rd. AC proved over the last 4 years that he was the better 3pt shooter pretty clearly.

Dun's assists PEAK AT 3.0 in his time at GS this year (by the way, that's BELOW what Jack did in GS, and in Indy Dun was below Jack's Indy assist numbers as well). Croshere is a 1 flat type of assist guy, so Dun gets the nod there. At A48 it jumps to 3.5 vs 2.5 (Dun this year, AC last year with Indy). But is 2.5 really a major impact for assists from the 2-3 spot? AC does 2 things that alter a game, he does hit the 3 and he does crash the boards.

What does Dun do that seriously impacts a game? Nothing. He does a bunch of modest stuff, bench side-kick stuff, but nothing that by himself alters a game...unless he is smoking hot from 2 on the catch and shoot which did happen from time to time.

They don't play different positions, they are both tall, slow SFs. AC was so slow they moved him to gimmick 4 and went undersized, and now the Pacers need a SG so bad they rotated Dun around to the backcourt which means he's getting toasted on defense at the 2 like AC (and Dun) gets burned when he plays the 3 (by speed).

AC was paid 7.3 this year, his FINAL year under contract. Dun got 7.4 with the Pacers on the hook for 4 more years and $37.5m.

So as far as I can tell the results and facts strongly imply that the Pacers basically gave Croshere a 4 year extension on his bad contract just when it was about to go away for good. Now think about it, if that had been what they literally did (rather than trading for Dun) how would you feel about it? Would you have faith in TPTB?

Again, I liked AC, I like Dun. I don't like the financial situation or especially now how "they" fit on this roster. I mean it made ROSTER sense to swap AC for another backcourt guy. Can we trade Dun for Quis part deux?

Re: PD Referendum - Mike Dunleavy Jr.

BTW, for all this bordeline starter talk and so on, have you seen BARNES play this year? Even he's better than Dun. He has the 3, he is quicker, more aggressive to the rim and a far more active defender. (survey says Matt is better in REB48, 3P% - by 7-8%, steals, blocks and almost equal in A48 at GS, better by Dun's Indy standard)

This isn't about Jack or AC or whatever. Dun isn't even a favorable comparison with other 6-7th man types for other strong teams.

The team got a guy worse than Barnes for the price of a guy as good as Manu or Mobley or Prince or Hinrich (who makes 9.5 per for 5 more years on his extension, Dun makes about 9.25 per for 4).

Re: PD Referendum - Mike Dunleavy Jr.

Ohh you mean Stephen Jesse Jackson the one that just killed the Dallas Mavericks in a elimination game. The one that is called by BARON DAVIS the leader of the Warriors. The one who shut down Dirk Nowitzki. The one that stepped up to carry a team to the next round when their best player got hurt in the first qtr of the elimination game. 20 ppg in the playoffs Stephen Jackson. Steps his game up in the playoffs every year Stephen Jackson. Or am I talking about Dunleavy right here.

I dont know I could be talking about the same person, I bet Mike Dunleavy has all those things on his playoff accomplishments list also.

Re: PD Referendum - Mike Dunleavy Jr.

Really? Always better? How about from 3pt%? How about REB/48? (in case you didn't notice, that's 1 outside skill and 1 inside skill, so you'd assume each had an edge in one of those categories)

Even THIS year AC was a 12+ R48 guy while Mike was only at 7.7. AC last year for Indy was an 11.1 R48 guy.

From 3 both have had better and worse years. AC got hurt 2 years ago and shot 26%. However Dun just put up a 28% spot in back to back years WITHOUT injury. AC put 3 years around that injury season of 39.1, 38.9, and 38.6 from 3 for the Pacers. Dun has had 2 seasons over 35% - a 37% his 2nd year and a 38.8 his 3rd. AC proved over the last 4 years that he was the better 3pt shooter pretty clearly.

Dun's assists PEAK AT 3.0 in his time at GS this year (by the way, that's BELOW what Jack did in GS, and in Indy Dun was below Jack's Indy assist numbers as well). Croshere is a 1 flat type of assist guy, so Dun gets the nod there. At A48 it jumps to 3.5 vs 2.5 (Dun this year, AC last year with Indy). But is 2.5 really a major impact for assists from the 2-3 spot? AC does 2 things that alter a game, he does hit the 3 and he does crash the boards.

What does Dun do that seriously impacts a game? Nothing. He does a bunch of modest stuff, bench side-kick stuff, but nothing that by himself alters a game...unless he is smoking hot from 2 on the catch and shoot which did happen from time to time.

They don't play different positions, they are both tall, slow SFs. AC was so slow they moved him to gimmick 4 and went undersized, and now the Pacers need a SG so bad they rotated Dun around to the backcourt which means he's getting toasted on defense at the 2 like AC (and Dun) gets burned when he plays the 3 (by speed).

AC was paid 7.3 this year, his FINAL year under contract. Dun got 7.4 with the Pacers on the hook for 4 more years and $37.5m.

So as far as I can tell the results and facts strongly imply that the Pacers basically gave Croshere a 4 year extension on his bad contract just when it was about to go away for good. Now think about it, if that had been what they literally did (rather than trading for Dun) how would you feel about it? Would you have faith in TPTB?

Again, I liked AC, I like Dun. I don't like the financial situation or especially now how "they" fit on this roster. I mean it made ROSTER sense to swap AC for another backcourt guy. Can we trade Dun for Quis part deux?

Just to watch AC and Dun one could see the obvious differences. AC got the same cheap rebounds that Murphy gets, those that don't require much physical contact or the ability to jump. AC could not take the ball to the basket and not lose it. AC had zero ability to run the floor and so you are right he had to become a PF. Dun can run the fast break, dribble the ball and take it to the basket without losing it.

Re: PD Referendum - Mike Dunleavy Jr.

Mike is better suited for the bench. Unfortunately, he's paid like all-star. It doesn't matter how he compares to past Pacer 2's. What matters is how he compares to the players he'll have to play against now. I can't think of many 2 guards in the East he's better than. He matches up well against other 6th man types. Too bad the same can be said for a few other possible starters on this team.

Re: PD Referendum - Mike Dunleavy Jr.

people, why compare Dunleavy with Croshere? 2 different players man, Dunleavy is decent at 2 in the offense, just dont like his defense, but i seriously think he is by far so much better than Austin Croshere man. Croshere is more of a role player, a typical 6th man on a good day, but dunleavy man, he has been a starter like all his NBA career, except for the Time Don Nelson experimented him to be a 6th man till he got traded.
I just dont think its fair to compare him to AC

Dun Averaged PPG 12.8 RPG 5.30 APG 2.8 this whole year but averaged 14.0 points and 5 rebounds as a Pacer in 43 games

just dont be lookin for his scoring each game, cuz that aint his game, he is a complimentary player and a solid starter

SJAX has more Play-offs experience therefore now he is mentally tougher, if only Dun is assertive enough in the offensive end, he could be so much better, i think he thinks too much in the court and this becomes a negative for him cause it affects his game, not letting the game flow naturally.

SJAX right now is playing great for the DUBS, he is a perfect fit with Nellie, great camaraderie with Boom Dizzle which shows a lot in the game.

Re: PD Referendum - Mike Dunleavy Jr.

The comments about Dunleavy's work ethic being bad --all those comments are complete garbage.

So stats are the deciding factor to prove work ethic - garbage

I have seen a lot of improvement in his game, in fact I saw a lot just in the 3 months he's been here.

As far as his potential is concerned - not sure what you think his potential is, but I think he is almost maxing his potential

I'm something different going on here with Mike and some of your coments here. Is it a Duke thing, is it a - I don't know. But this is starting to tick me off.

OK, I'm just going to come out and say this right now. I'm starting to think some of you don't or can't appreciate a smart player who is first and foremost a team player.

From everything I know, everything I hear, everything I can determine on my onw, Mike is one of the hardest workers on the team without question.

UB...I think it comes down to those that value individual play higher than team play. Sometimes I think some types of fans could care less if the P's went 0-82 as long as their personal fav averaged a double-double.

As far as Dun is concerned. Most of the games I saw were pre-trade so I have to go by what I saw on TV instead of the actual flow of the game. IMPO he appeared to be working hard and trying. He appeared to be staying with the gameplan and not breaking plays. Question...foot speed v. basketball IQ. Is he just not fleet afoot or is he slow to react? I honestly haven't determined that yet, I'll know better for myself after I see him in person. In the meantime, I like him off the bench as a 6 or 7. As to his being overpaid, it doesn't come out of my pocket so it only affects what we can do as far as player movement. Right now we don't know what that effect is because nobody can make any movement until after the PO's. Some may speculate that we can't (won't) do this or that because of this salary or that salary, but until we get there we can't know what TPTB will or won't do. So why get so worked up over what you THINK might happen?

At least we haven't had any PR nightmares with this guy and for a team in PR Hell that is worth something. Like it or not, we're in Indiana...middle America....the Bible-belt. Character DOES mean something to a large percentage of the population. And so, acquiring a player that doesn't make a spectacle of themselves and embarrass the team does have value to TPTB.

(sorry for the rambling disjointed nature, short night)

If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

Re: PD Referendum - Mike Dunleavy Jr.

UB...I think it comes down to those that value individual play higher than team play. Sometimes I think some types of fans could care less if the P's went 0-82 as long as their personal fav averaged a double-double.

That is SO true and Í think it deserves an own thread. There are too much fanboys of certain players here who only praise their favourite players and have a certain disdain for other players. It looks like some of us just don't care for the Pacers enough, and I feel it's creating a split between the team fans and the players fans.

Re: PD Referendum - Mike Dunleavy Jr.

I'm assuming that the fanboy charge isn't directed at me, because I don't even have a favorite player. I've always said that if I bought a jersey, it would be a Donnie Walsh jersey.

Basketball IQ: I agree that Dunleavy is smart on the court. He never leaves his man open and I've never though "Oh geez, why are you taking that shot". If you do a search though my SJax posts, basketbal IQ is the reason why I didn't like him. I've even gone so far as to say his off-the-court incidents didn't bother me. For me, it was all about shot selection and turnovers.

I watch basketball with my brain, not my eyes. And I see the difference in Dunleavy. But what good is playing within the offense and taking good shots if you don't make the shots?

Years 2-5 (GS), his rebounding numbers steadily decreased while his minutes remained about the same (except for the last GS year). But then they spiked at Indiana, right? Possibly. But he also played career high minutes per game. By my own amateur calculations, he actually was a poorer rebounder in Indiana than he was at GS (per 48). Obviously, his assists went down too, because he averaged a career low in assists in Indiana despite the increase in playing time. His stats across the board have a similar explanation: they either are lower than before, or they haven't proportionally increased with his increased playing time.

But the real big one to me is 3-pt percentage. He hit 28.3% as a Pacer. No, that's not a misprint. And it isn't a fluke, because he shot 28.5% last year as a Warrior. And his basketball IQ is why I question his work ethic.

We can all agree that he took good treys. Not early in the shot clock, not outside the flow of the offense, not with a man in his face. So why in the world would a professional basketball player whose only above average weapon is his shot let himself shoot so poorly? Why hasn't he locked himself in a gym to shoot jumpers 8 hours a day or something crazy?

Work ethic isn't just showing up for practice on time, running the sprints really hard, and listening to the coach. It also means sacrificing your free time and reaching deep into your gut to correct a problem that either a) is killing the team of b) would give your team a serious boost if you fixed it.

Yes, Jermaine O'Neal would be totally awesome if he could hit treys. But I doubt any amount of work would give him a 3-pt touch. (he supposedly tried one summer).

But Dunleavy clearly can. He's done it before, both in college and the pros. So why has he missed open shots for two consecutive years? Other that not working hard on it, is there any possible explanation whatsoever?

Re: PD Referendum - Mike Dunleavy Jr.

I'm assuming that the fanboy charge isn't directed at me, because I don't even have a favorite player. I've always said that if I bought a jersey, it would be a Donnie Walsh jersey.

Basketball IQ: I agree that Dunleavy is smart on the court. He never leaves his man open and I've never though "Oh geez, why are you taking that shot". If you do a search though my SJax posts, basketbal IQ is the reason why I didn't like him. I've even gone so far as to say his off-the-court incidents didn't bother me. For me, it was all about shot selection and turnovers.

I watch basketball with my brain, not my eyes. And I see the difference in Dunleavy. But what good is playing within the offense and taking good shots if you don't make the shots?

Years 2-5 (GS), his rebounding numbers steadily decreased while his minutes remained about the same (except for the last GS year). But then they spiked at Indiana, right? Possibly. But he also played career high minutes per game. By my own amateur calculations, he actually was a poorer rebounder in Indiana than he was at GS (per 48). Obviously, his assists went down too, because he averaged a career low in assists in Indiana despite the increase in playing time. His stats across the board have a similar explanation: they either are lower than before, or they haven't proportionally increased with his increased playing time.

But the real big one to me is 3-pt percentage. He hit 28.3% as a Pacer. No, that's not a misprint. And it isn't a fluke, because he shot 28.5% last year as a Warrior. And his basketball IQ is why I question his work ethic.

We can all agree that he took good treys. Not early in the shot clock, not outside the flow of the offense, not with a man in his face. So why in the world would a professional basketball player whose only above average weapon is his shot let himself shoot so poorly? Why hasn't he locked himself in a gym to shoot jumpers 8 hours a day or something crazy?

Work ethic isn't just showing up for practice on time, running the sprints really hard, and listening to the coach. It also means sacrificing your free time and reaching deep into your gut to correct a problem that either a) is killing the team of b) would give your team a serious boost if you fixed it.

Yes, Jermaine O'Neal would be totally awesome if he could hit treys. But I doubt any amount of work would give him a 3-pt touch. (he supposedly tried one summer).

But Dunleavy clearly can. He's done it before, both in college and the pros. So why has he missed open shots for two consecutive years? Other that not working hard on it, is there any possible explanation whatsoever?

Thats a good summary of his stats I can do nothing but agree there. But this thing with his work ethic...

For me accusing a guy of having no work ethic is pretty damning. As you've shown up above, Mike's shooting has declined. But we don't know that he has or hasn't been working in the gym trying to improve that.

Donnie said he wanted Dunleavy to bulk up. I'm like you, I'm a big Donnie Walsh fan. I think a more accurate gauge of Mike Dunleavy's work ethic will be if he comes back bigger, or if he comes back looking the same as last year. For me its a better indicator because you don't need some specialized talent to bulk up, you just need to put in the hours and work at it. Shooting can be effected by a lot of things, mental confidence, streaks, slumps, etc...

Re: PD Referendum - Mike Dunleavy Jr.

No FlavaDave that fanboy thing wasnt directed at you, it was directed at me and its not the first time that dude has thrown that shot at me. He usually comes in once and month and sends a subliminal shot right at me, its starting to get quite pathetic. I will probably be called a ******* or a dick for pointing this out.

Re: PD Referendum - Mike Dunleavy Jr.

Thats a good summary of his stats I can do nothing but agree there. But this thing with his work ethic...

For me accusing a guy of having no work ethic is pretty damning. As you've shown up above, Mike's shooting has declined. But we don't know that he has or hasn't been working in the gym trying to improve that.

Donnie said he wanted Dunleavy to bulk up. I'm like you, I'm a big Donnie Walsh fan. I think a more accurate gauge of Mike Dunleavy's work ethic will be if he comes back bigger, or if he comes back looking the same as last year. For me its a better indicator because you don't need some specialized talent to bulk up, you just need to put in the hours and work at it. Shooting can be effected by a lot of things, mental confidence, streaks, slumps, etc...

To be clear, I'm not saying he has NO work ethic. I'm saying he doesn't have enough of one.

It's the difference between lacking work ethic and having a work ethic that is lacking.

When I said that his work ethic is "extremely questionable", I meant that it obviously, undoubtedly needs to be questioned. I could have worded it better.

I've know many people that were very smart, ie going to Ivy League school smart that haven't panned out to much because they didn't put the work in. I see hints of that in Dunleavy, and his stats seem to back up that instinct.

Re: PD Referendum - Mike Dunleavy Jr.

Ok, so all those fans in Golden State that seen Dunleavy disapoint them, AND NOW certain fans here that have serious questions about Dunleavy's game and work ethic...Their comments are garbage?!?

I may not agree about the assesment of Dunleavy by some here and most at Golden State, BUT I'm not so quick to dismiss their comments as "garbage". It is severly easy for me to see how he and his game fell out of favor in G.S. After his time here, it is becoming easier to see how he fell out of favor in Oakland.