I've now reconsidered how useful a thread for each bit of the last chapter might be, I think we should just keep discussing like we are now, and periodically someone should post a summary of what has been agreed or not agreed upon kinda thing. It might get weird all broken up, then again might be fine.

I've been mulling over the possible significance of the black roses, All I can really say is that I'm not sure. Anyone else wanna turn their Mekon like brain to it? It could be a simple expression of the manipulation of nature, but then it could be a whole lot more.

Naw, FH is too intelligent to be mixed up with anarchist ideas. No one who thinks about the subject for longer than 15 seconds is likely to continue thinking about anarchy for much longer - anarchy is such pure fail that it doesn't even make an intereting discussion about why exactly it is such pure fail.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Naw, FH is too intelligent to be mixed up with anarchist ideas. No one who thinks about the subject for longer than 15 seconds is likely to continue thinking about anarchy for much longer - anarchy is such pure fail that it doesn't even make an intereting discussion about why exactly it is such pure fail.

Grrrr...

I'll be sure to not get into any discussions of Anarchy with you, then, Thang.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Naw, FH is too intelligent to be mixed up with anarchist ideas. No one who thinks about the subject for longer than 15 seconds is likely to continue thinking about anarchy for much longer - anarchy is such pure fail that it doesn't even make an intereting discussion about why exactly it is such pure fail.

Grrrr...

I'll be sure to not get into any discussions of Anarchy with you, then, Thang.

Quick - back on topic or our posts will be moved!

If FH did mean for those roses to represent something, that representation may not have had anything to do with their colour, or if anything, the colour might have been chosen to make people pause and think about the roses more.

Yeah that's it - I don't actually think Frank meant the colour to be symbolic of anything, I was just stirring the pot a bit...Roses are (or were) normally thought of in connection with retired couples who took up gardening.Although roses, you know, demand a fair bit of attention, and next to Irises (do I mean Irises?) are probably the flowers which demand the most time and attention, so are perfect for folks with more time on their hands.

No, hang on, I mean Orchids. I hate it when I do that.

So no, probably we shouldn't be reading too much into the roses.And now, back to your scheduled programming...

HB Jack wrote:and his way to ignore Marty when he doesn't want to talk about something.

Thing wrote:Marty implying that Daniel would rather prune than deal with the ship seems to pick up weight as the chapter goes on. He keeps trying to dodge conversation by focusing on the roses, and right here at the end, even though he repeats that he didn't let them go (while pruning away, which to me implies that he's lying and this pruning is almost like his "tell") he then immediately states that he wants nothing to do with those gholas, supporting Marty's guess that this might have been another motive for him.

Duncan sees them as Grant Wood's America Gothic (or that is implied, I can't seemto find the keywords right now to suss out the quote) but what is their true appearance ?

Yes, it's funny that beings so powerful would choose to maintain such an understated appearance. I see that as an expression of wisdom, a level of personal honesty that's outgrown ostentation.Their true appearance? As face dancers? Part of the time I catch myself wondering what such a creature would look like when he's not looking like something else, then I remember that FH wrote that they 'relax' into a true appearance when dead. Has anyone else wondered if their pug nosed blandness was just another ruse? Having said that, I'd like to hear y'all explore the relationship between appearance and identity from a face dancer perspective. I've always viewed the mules as having a reduced sence of self, like a drone. Daniel and Marty say they've gained their free will by absorbing personnas. I find it hard to believe that a self willed person who could look like anything would be able to choose just one appearance without it being a cynical joke, I'm not getting into gender- just faces.

Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.-Omphalos

SandRider wrote:I agree with this (HB & Thing) what I'm saying is .... what space are Daniel and Marty occupying here ?is this some kind of "metaphysical", alternate/parallel reality, a "dimension" where theseface dancers have learned not only to manipulate their bodies, but their environment, and so havecreated this "garden" they are in as a common physical reference point for themselves? ...Frank doesn't seem to be too fond of a wholelot of "magical" plot devices ... alternate/parallel universes is not an idea that seems to fit with Frank'sthinking ... but there were a lot of changes in him and in general ideas in this type of fiction writing between the early 1960s and the mid-80s ....

I agree, there's a small chance FH might have tried out the "dimention" thing, but even with all one can infer from the 'net,' I doubt it. The only thing I have to support this opinion is that he wouldn't take an easy way like that.I like the last two books because they start to explore abilities that are similar to, but distinctly different from, the prescience from the first four. Frank always seemed to prefer amazing personal abilities in this universe to the opposite.

Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.-Omphalos

Black roses (roses of black color) do not exist in nature as such, but nevertheless have been created in laboratories. Botinists have manipulated the rose's genes through preliminary cross breeding, creating the hybrid Black Rose. They are often featured in fiction with many different meanings such as the "black magic", "barkarole", "black beauty" and "baccara" and death varieties of roses. The flowers commonly called black roses are actually a very dark red color.

Language of flowers

In the 18th century, the language of flowers became popular. In this code, the black rose is a symbol of death, hatred, revenge, sorrow or mourning. It can also be used when conveying a farewell. The black rose's quality of being a rare flower renders it an apt symbol of profound love, or other such things of a rare nature.

It also is the symbol of rebirth especially a rebirth of a beauty. A rebirth of the mind.

What about black roses? Do they exist and, if so, what is the meaning? While no jet-black rose exists, there are some of such a deep red as to suggest black. E.g., Rosa 'Black Magic.' Alternatively, some florists dry fresh roses and dye them black. And the meaning? There is some disagreement on this point. Many say black represents death and can thus be used as a symbol to express vengeance towards a foe. But others interpret that more liberally, suggesting as a meaning for black roses the death of old habits, thus signalling rebirth.

It seems to me that these themes smack of Chapterhouse. I can't rule out that the roses are indeed significant here...

It's typical that products of the Bene Teilax , such as D&M, still have a respect for mucking about with genetics and such.

"the black rose is a symbol of death, hatred, revenge, sorrow or mourning. It can also be used when conveying a farewell. The black rose's quality of being a rare flower renders it an apt symbol of profound love, or other such things of a rare nature. It also is the symbol of rebirth especially a rebirth of a beauty. A rebirth of the mind."

Oh man, lots to interpret here:

- Revenge or "a symbol to express vengeance towards a foe": This theme reminds me of the Honored Matres, whom we all know were in the process of retreating thoughout Heretics and Chapterhouse. They were running from the "enemy with many faces" and had returned to the old empire to conquer those worlds by both military and economic means (the banks on Gammu, etc), for the sole purpose of eventually becoming strong enough to exact revenge on their enemy. So, if Marty and Daniel (particularly Daniel) tend to black roses, have they been marked for revenge? I think it's safe to assume they have many faces.

Another note on revenge: I think it was Odrade that said "Revenge is for children and the emotionally retarded."

- Mourning: Not directly related to D&M but is certainly a theme at the end of Chapterhouse, considering that Odrade dies, which helps to set in motion the escape of Duncan & company (part of her plan).

- Conveying a farewell: There are two farewells at the end of Chapterhouse. The obvious one being the escape of the no-ship, and the other one being Daniel's attitude towards that escape: "They're where we can't touch them now," "Gholas. He's welcome to them." Daniel's own farewell to Duncan?

- A Profound Love: It doesn't get much more profound than Duncan's bond with Murbella. What that has to do with D&M and their rose garden, I'm not so sure... Or perhaps did Daniel let Duncan escape because of a profound love for him? Hmm, that's a stretch, but I'm just putting it out there... Love in general was a major theme throughout Heretics and Chapterhouse. Odrade and Taraza wielded love as a taboo tool, with Jessica as their inspiration.

- A Rebirth of the Mind: This is pretty broad; Someone's mind is always being reborn in one way or another in Dune. Be it Duncan's strange awareness of D&M and their net (or simply his decision to leave), Teg's transformation into a superfast no-ship detector, D&M's evolution into omnipotent beings, the RM Agony, the list goes on...

- The Death of old Habits, Thus Signalling Rebirth: This is so Dune. To start, Odrade knew that if current BG habits continued, her prophetic axe-wielder/tightrope/chasm dream would come true in the form of the BG being crushed by the HM's. It was often repeated that Odrade's own prescience was limited to foreseeing the survival of the sisterhood. Farad'n Corrino (hailing fom Salusa Secundus, where we've seen black roses before) was re-named Harq Al-Ada by Leto II, which I believe is Chakobsa for "The breaking of the habit."

So, was Frank fully aware of at least some of these themes when he made the decision to include black roses in D&M's garden? I'm thinking he more than likely did.

EDIT: More on the death of old habits and rebirth: The very act of Scattering, especially in the spirit that Duncan & company did it, is a kind of rebirth. Sheeana envisioned a start on a new world or a new empire, a subject which will certainly need its own topic...

EDIT: More on love: A Bene Gesserit rule from heretics: "Tolerate Love, but guard against it." And later: "A safety net to ensure continuation of the species."

While the symbolism of black roses is on the table, let's not forget the pruning bit - it's also quite tempting to read that as symbolic.

The "attitude of the knife" can be expressed with any sharp implement, it seems. In the final paragraph of the entire sequence of novels, we're given "His pruning shears went snick-snick". You can look past the end of the following sentence and actually see the cut, so to speak.

To read it like that also suggests the "Daniel/Marty stand for FH/Beverly" view (outside the story that is; within the story they're liberated face dancer types, of course) since by ending the tale in that manner it's FH who's doing the pruning.

Could it be possible that M&D have gained some form of prescience through their absorption of personas - their own mental breeding program? The Net being representative of their abilities. . . But Daniel seems to suggest the Net is a physical property of whatever means they use to capture beings, so perhaps it is the product of a device that nullifies the cloaking of no-ships and the Siona gene (they saw the RMs as well). Such a device was purported to exist in an infinite universe full of invinite possibilities (by Teg I believe).

It not known what plans M&D had for the no-ship crew or whether they were significant at all. Marty seemed more upset about the ghola-cells than anyone else. It could be they simply "play" with the lives of others for their own amusement, rather than towards some specific end. The planet being a "real test of their abilities" has a carefree tone to it - Marty didnt really put much stake in their survival.

As to why a Master would expect to find God when meeting M&D (this was asked early in the thread by someone), I think Marty's statement was a simple jab at religion. The BT have kept their true purpose and religion hidden for millenia, setting the board for their end game - a shariat rule. What a surprize it would be to learn what the FDs must know: there is no God.

The symbolism of the black roses, in all interpretations, may be true - even the anarchist one: M&D feel a bit like Sacco and Vanzetti: just a victim of the times.

Deskepticon wrote:Could it be possible that M&D have gained some form of prescience through their absorption of personas - their own mental breeding program? The Net being representative of their abilities. . . But Daniel seems to suggest the Net is a physical property of whatever means they use to capture beings, so perhaps it is the product of a device that nullifies the cloaking of no-ships and the Siona gene (they saw the RMs as well). Such a device was purported to exist in an infinite universe full of invinite possibilities (by Teg I believe).

I think Teg and Duncan came to that conclusion together.

It not known what plans M&D had for the no-ship crew or whether they were significant at all. Marty seemed more upset about the ghola-cells than anyone else. It could be they simply "play" with the lives of others for their own amusement, rather than towards some specific end. The planet being a "real test of their abilities" has a carefree tone to it - Marty didnt really put much stake in their survival.

As to why a Master would expect to find God when meeting M&D (this was asked early in the thread by someone), I think Marty's statement was a simple jab at religion. The BT have kept their true purpose and religion hidden for millenia, setting the board for their end game - a shariat rule. What a surprize it would be to learn what the FDs must know: there is no God.

Was it masters or face dancers that expected God?

Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.~Pink Snowman

"I still think you let them escape. You're so anxious to prune your roses!""What would you have said to the Master, anyway?" Daniel asked."I was going to joke when he asked who we were. They always ask that. I wasgoing to say: 'What did you expect, God Himself with a flowing beard?' "Daniel chuckled. "That would've been funny. They have such a hard timeaccepting that Face Dancers can be independent of them."

Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.~Pink Snowman

Im a bit confused as to what you mean. . . or are implying(?).An early (early) comment asked "why would a master think M&D were God." I think the question was derived from misunderstanding (or misreading) the text, but I offered my analysis anyway.

To the point, I would assume that since M&D have at least a few RM personas, and since RMs are necessarily athiest, that Marty was just being cynical. I may be missing a finer layer to her remark but it sounds like she was just adding insult-to-injury.

This is interesting, because it almost seems like Marty IS implying that they are fulfilling some kind of God role, dispite the earlier statement that they are not gods (though neither was Leto and he certainly filled the role). Her joke seems to imply that a BT Master would be expecting God when he met them, which is weird - that kinda implies that the Master meeting them would have some reason to expect this, would it not? Why would they expect that?

This was the post I was referencing. Thing was under the assumption the Master would have reason to expect God. I did not think Marty's comment implied that at all.

I simply do not see how Brian and Kevin could have gotten "robots" from that part of the book.

I mean - it's proof that they are Face Dancers.

"They had a Tleilaxu Master, too," Marty said. "I saw him when they went under the net. I would have so liked to study another Master."

^ They refer to Tleilaxu Masters in short as "Masters", in conversation.

Daniel chuckled. "That would've been funny. They have such a hard time accepting that Face Dancers can be independent of them."

"I don't see why. It's a natural consequence. They gave us the power to absorb the memories and experiences of other people.Gather enough of those and . . ."

"It's personas we take, Marty."

"Whatever. The Masters should've known we would gather enough of them one day to make our own decisions about our own future."

A Thing of Eternity wrote:though I'm not sure what, don't know about that memory/persona idea.

Well, Freakzilla put it best!

Freakzilla wrote:The BT speak genetics, they don't have to be descended. They can appearantly say, "Ooh, I like your genes, can I wear them?"

Face Dancers copy the genetic sequence of an individual to take their form, and according to Daniel and Marty, in addition to "wearing" the genes of another - they can plumb the depths of that individuals memory, as well.

Of course, the BT learned how to create Ghola's that could awaken to their pasts, and so having a Face dancer that can read the memories of it's target, once it has copied those genes, is what Daniel and Marty were speaking of.

They gave us the power to absorb the memories and experiences of other people.Gather enough of those and . . ."

"It's personas we take, Marty."

"Whatever. The Masters should've known we would gather enough of them one day to make our own decisions about our own future."

So, they are Face Dancers - they speak of their Tleilaxu Masters in an obvious way, and how they assume the genes of others.

- I haven't read Kevin and Brian's books aside from House Atreides - Do the Cymeks have Tleilaxu Masters, then? - Can they assume the genetic code of an individual?

To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.- Sun Tzu

My fellow members of the Jacurutu; of this Sietch - let Water be a bond between us.-Nameless Swordsman

Nameless Swordsman wrote:- I haven't read Kevin and Brian's books aside from House Atreides - Do the Cymeks have Tleilaxu Masters, then? - Can they assume the genetic code of an individual?

What are cymeks?cy- cyborgs?meks- mechanicals?Mmm? I bet Kevin came up with them.

Sand Rider wrote:

HB Jack wrote:and his way to ignore Marty when he doesn't want to talk about something.

Thing wrote:Marty implying that Daniel would rather prune than deal with the ship seems to pick up weight as the chapter goes on. He keeps trying to dodge conversation by focusing on the roses, and right here at the end, even though he repeats that he didn't let them go (while pruning away, which to me implies that he's lying and this pruning is almost like his "tell") he then immediately states that he wants nothing to do with those gholas, supporting Marty's guess that this might have been another motive for him.

I agree with this - what I'm saying is .... what space are Daniel and Marty occupying here ?Duncan sees them as Grant Wood's America Gothic (or that is implied, I can't seemto find the keywords right now to suss out the quote) but what is their true appearance ?

is this some kind of "metaphysical", alternate/parallel reality, a "dimension" where theseface dancers have learned not only to manipulate their bodies, but their environment, and so havecreated this "garden" they are in as a common physical reference point for themselves ?

if so, then Daniel "Pruning roses" may just be the way Marty perceives whatever it is Daniel is doing;a way to hang a common language on their actions - that's what I meant by metaphor - is Danielactually pruning a real, physical biological rosebush, or is that just what Marty calls it, the way shesees it (and they both could be "seeing" the same thing, or something completely different, filteredand "translated" into the other's method of perception - Daniel could be seeing himself building amodel ship in a bottle, for instance) when what Daniel is actually doing might have somethingto do with the collection of the personas .... "pruning" out bits and pieces or whole personas fromhimself ....

a "virtual reality" thing; and I hate to do it, but like the way the cylons existed and co-existed witheach other in the new BSG ...

which is where I hit a real block with this idea .... Frank doesn't seem to be too fond of a wholelot of "magical" plot devices ... alternate/parallel universes is not an idea that seems to fit with Frank'sthinking ... but there were a lot of changes in him and in general ideas in this type of fiction writing between the early 1960s and the mid-80s ....

A Cymek was a type of thinking machine who used to be a human, but at some point in time had been converted into a cyborg: robotic body controlled by the legacy human brain. They lived in the ten-or-so millennia before the establishment of the Spacing Guild.

The cymek's human brain was held in a preservation canister filled with electrafluid. In this state, and with frequent upkeep, the brain could live for at least tens of thousands of years, and was able to control interchangeable robotic bodies through thoughtrodes.

Types of Cymeks

Cymeks could be broadly separated into two categories:

Titans - the original 20 persons who conquered and ruled the Old Empire until the rise of Omnius; it is not known how many of them became cymeks and who died as humans Neocymeks - all cymeks who came after the establishment of the 20 Titans.

Cymek Attitudes

Despite once being human themselves, cymeks considered themselves superior to and the natural overlords of humans, whom they considered weak in both body and mind. Consequently, the cymeks referred to humans in a derogatory manner, by using the term originally coined by the original Titans - hrethgir. Omnius and his servants later adopted this term.

Their ability to detach from their robotic bodies proved both a major strength and a major weakness for the cymeks. Without their bodies they were vulnerable to numerous forms of manipulation. Thus newly created cymeks were often indoctrinated into total subservience to their new masters, either Omnius or the Titans.List of known Cymeks Titans

Agamemnon Ajax Alexander Barbarossa Dante Hecate Juno Xerxes

Others

Beowulf Quentin Butler

Behind the scenes

Cymeks are never mentioned by Frank Herbert in his original Dune novels. They are the creation of Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson, and feature prominently in their Legends of Dune trilogy of novels.

Okay, it's a cool idea - but there is no proof whatsoever that Daniel and Marty were Cymeks, or any type of Thinking Machine, none.

And they basically state that they are Face Dancers whilst talking to themselves - Tleilaxu Masters and all.

To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.- Sun Tzu

My fellow members of the Jacurutu; of this Sietch - let Water be a bond between us.-Nameless Swordsman