Well, at least he'll be invincible if he gets shot in the heel with an arrow. And at the very least, this ritual will allow his parents to think they are now free to judge others and make excuses for their own horrific behavior.

Benevolent Misanthrope:Baptism is about accepting a god and all his teaching as revealed through the church, and rejecting the Devil and all his works.

No, it's not. If it was, it wouldn't routinely be performed on somebody who wasn't even old enough to accept that their own hand is not a foodstuff. It would only be performed on those old enough to understand the implications of what they're supposed to be accepting, and that would not be at an age in the single digits at all, let alone below the age of 3 months.

Baptism is about symbolic indoctrination in a faith. Nothing more, nothing less. Get them in early enough and hopefully you keep them for life, free from all that pesky questioning stuff that the unindoctrinated tend to suffer from.

Baptism got dumbed down the minute it went from being an initiation into a small cult that met in houses on the edge of town which required study and sacrifice and started being performed on babies as part of a state-endorsed religion. It's all gone downhill since Constantine.

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich:Baptism got dumbed down the minute it went from being an initiation into a small cult that met in houses on the edge of town which required study and sacrifice and started being performed on babies as part of a state-endorsed religion. It's all gone downhill since Constantine.

gweilo8888:Benevolent Misanthrope: Baptism is about accepting a god and all his teaching as revealed through the church, and rejecting the Devil and all his works.

No, it's not. If it was, it wouldn't routinely be performed on somebody who wasn't even old enough to accept that their own hand is not a foodstuff. It would only be performed on those old enough to understand the implications of what they're supposed to be accepting, and that would not be at an age in the single digits at all, let alone below the age of 3 months.

Baptism is about symbolic indoctrination in a faith. Nothing more, nothing less. Get them in early enough and hopefully you keep them for life, free from all that pesky questioning stuff that the unindoctrinated tend to suffer from.

BTW, Subby, I see what you did there.

You're talking about the difference between adult baptism and infant baptism. A number of Protestant sects argue that only someone who can speak for themselves can truly accept baptism, because they have to understand the questions of faith being put to them in the ceremony. It's a reasonable argument, but one not supported by tradition.

During infant baptism the questions of faith are asked of the child's parents, who answer on behalf of the child with the expectation that they will raise the child to eventually be able to answer for themselves. Giving parents the authority to do so dates back to the early days of the Church when men accepted baptism on behalf of themselves and their households.

simplicimus:Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: Baptism got dumbed down the minute it went from being an initiation into a small cult that met in houses on the edge of town which required study and sacrifice and started being performed on babies as part of a state-endorsed religion. It's all gone downhill since Constantine.

Mouser:You're talking about the difference between adult baptism and infant baptism.

I am well aware of that, although the terms are credobaptism and paedobaptism.

A number of Protestant sects argue that only someone who can speak for themselves can truly accept baptism, because they have to understand the questions of faith being put to them in the ceremony. It's a reasonable argument, but one not supported by tradition.

Depends how far you go back. Go back far enough and tradition supported the credobaptists. Then somebody realized that paedobaptism was better for growing your audience in the long term.

During infant baptism the questions of faith are asked of the child's parents, who answer on behalf of the child with the expectation that they will raise the child to eventually be able to answer for themselves. Giving parents the authority to do so dates back to the early days of the Church when men accepted baptism on behalf of themselves and their households.

Translation: It is about symbolic indoctrination in a faith: Get them in early enough and hopefully you keep them for life, free from all that pesky questioning stuff that the unindoctrinated tend to suffer from.

Which is just what I already said.

Incidentally, the goal is not to "raise the child to eventually be able to answer for themselves" so much as it is to "raise the child to give the answer that's been drilled into them since childbirth". There's an important distinction here: One involves critical thinking, and the other involves rote learning or brainwashing, depending on the degree of indoctrination used.

gweilo8888:Incidentally, the goal is not to "raise the child to eventually be able to answer for themselves" so much as it is to "raise the child to give the answer that's been drilled into them since childbirth". There's an important distinction here: One involves critical thinking, and the other involves rote learning or brainwashing, depending on the degree of indoctrination used.

buckler:Benevolent Misanthrope: Baptism is about accepting a god and all his teaching as revealed through the church, and rejecting the Devil and all his works. Not saying that kind of defeats the purpose.

And how well-equipped is a baby to accept that choice?

I don't know how it works with Anglicans, but for Catholics, there are three more opportunities after Baptism to re-affirm your faith. Four if you get married or join the clergy. Five if you're awake during Last Rites.

simplicimus:buckler: Benevolent Misanthrope: Baptism is about accepting a god and all his teaching as revealed through the church, and rejecting the Devil and all his works. Not saying that kind of defeats the purpose.

And how well-equipped is a baby to accept that choice?

I don't know how it works with Anglicans, but for Catholics, there are three more opportunities after Baptism to re-affirm your faith. Four if you get married or join the clergy. Five if you're awake during Last Rites.

It doesn't answer my question, but that adds some information I was unaware of. Thanks!

This far in, and nobody has brought up the ritual of 'emergency baptism' yet?If a newborn is in a bad way, there's the option of an immediate baptism, to save his soul in the event of an early death.A charming idea. It's even referenced in Meistersinger.

simplicimus:I don't know how it works with Anglicans, but for Catholics, there are three more opportunities after Baptism to re-affirm your faith. Four if you get married or join the clergy. Five if you're awake during Last Rites.

And every Easter -- if you attend the Easter Vigil Mass -- and every Sunday and Feast Day Mass through the recitation of either the Nicene Creed or the Apostles' Creed.

buckler:simplicimus: buckler: Benevolent Misanthrope: Baptism is about accepting a god and all his teaching as revealed through the church, and rejecting the Devil and all his works. Not saying that kind of defeats the purpose.

And how well-equipped is a baby to accept that choice?

I don't know how it works with Anglicans, but for Catholics, there are three more opportunities after Baptism to re-affirm your faith. Four if you get married or join the clergy. Five if you're awake during Last Rites.

It doesn't answer my question, but that adds some information I was unaware of. Thanks!

To answer your question, infant baptism is a measure to keep dead infant's souls from going to hell by absolving them of original sin. It's an old practice from a time of much higher infant mortality rates than currently.

simplicimus:buckler: Benevolent Misanthrope: Baptism is about accepting a god and all his teaching as revealed through the church, and rejecting the Devil and all his works. Not saying that kind of defeats the purpose.

And how well-equipped is a baby to accept that choice?

I don't know how it works with Anglicans, but for Catholics, there are three more opportunities after Baptism to re-affirm your faith. Four if you get married or join the clergy. Five if you're awake during Last Rites.

simplicimus:To answer your question, infant baptism is a measure to keep dead infant's souls from going to hell by absolving them of original sin. It's an old practice from a time of much higher infant mortality rates than currently.

So innocent babies who die unbaptized are automatically hell-bound? That sounds brutal, even for Christians.

Yeah, that's what I tried to explain to my niece/goddaughter as she balefully eyed me, betrayed and brokenhearted, as the priest read the end of The Godfather screenplay. It's a stupid f*cking practice. I hated it, and so does everybody else who isn't in a spritz-my-forehead denomination. And for what? Bullsh*t.

buckler:simplicimus: To answer your question, infant baptism is a measure to keep dead infant's souls from going to hell by absolving them of original sin. It's an old practice from a time of much higher infant mortality rates than currently.

So innocent babies who die unbaptized are automatically hell-bound? That sounds brutal, even for Christians.

They don't go to Hell, they wind up in the bargain bin in Purgatory, to serve as sports equipment for dead realtors.

A young boy was undergoing traing in his faith so the deacons were grilling him on the finer elements of dogma. He handled all questions easily. Finally one deacon posed a The Big Question, "Son, do you believe in infanta baptism?"