Hi! I am not a Muslim and do not wish any disrespect to Islam. I don't know if any Muslims or people who have studied Islam are able to answer my questions, but I have a few about Islam so here goes:

1. I have heard that there has been debate historically in Islam about whether Allah is different from His attributes. Could someone explain what this means?

2. Similarly, I have also heard that some Salafists believe that Allah literally sits on a throne, whereas most Sunnis do not believe this. Is this true and how is this possible?

3. Could you explain Islamic belief about whether Allah directly causes all events? I know that there has been debate about this as well. Does Allah directly cause it to rain, or does Allah just create the natural world and the laws of nature while not necessarily intervening every time a natural event occurs? Does Allah cause all human decisions? Do people therefore have free will? How have Muslims disagreed over this throughout history?

4. Does Allah always have to be called "He"? Does this mean that He is male in any way? Would it be incorrect or sinful to call Allah "She" or "It"?

5. At least some Muslims believe that the Qur'an was never created and has always existed in its original Arabic text with Allah. I thought only Allah is uncreated though. How can there be something distinct from Allah that is eternal and was never created? Isn't Allah the creator of everything including language? Or does this mean that the Qur'an is divine?

6. Did prophets that preceded Muhammad, like Jesus (as Muslims believe), receive the full revelation of the Qur'an? Do Muslims believe that the teachings of the earlier prophets was the same as Muhammad's but that their followers misinterpreted it and mis-recorded it? Or did the earlier prophets make mistakes in interpreting what was revealed to them?

At 1/27/2014 5:24:48 PM, rockwater wrote:Hi! I am not a Muslim and do not wish any disrespect to Islam. I don't know if any Muslims or people who have studied Islam are able to answer my questions, but I have a few about Islam so here goes:

Okay, first off, I will offer my credentials, so as to ensure reliability of what I say.

I have a degree from the Islamic university of medina. In the Islamic world, this is the equivalent of Harvard divinity school. I double majored in "Language and culture" and Theology, with an emphasis on "Hadith". I spent my spare time studying Islamic Creed and the variations therein under the renowned Muslim theologian Shaikh Ali Naasir Al-Faqeehi. Please note that these thing are not usually studied in a classroom in the Islamic world, but rather in circles of study known as "halaqaat". That said, let's dig in.

1. I have heard that there has been debate historically in Islam about whether Allah is different from His attributes. Could someone explain what this means?

The controversy is not particularly whether God is different from his attributes or not, over the attributes themselves. I will explain.

In chapter 42, verse 11, God states that "nothing is like unto him". In the same verse, he continues to describe himself as "hearing" and "seeing". Throughout the Quran he describes himself as having hands and a face, even legs and feet. The controversy rises from this. God said nothing in his creation is like him, so how can he have sight, hearing, hands, feet, and a face like we do? There are two interpretations of this.

1. That God does not actually possess these traits, and we are to interpret them metaphysically rather than literally. This is the view adopted by Jahm Ibn Safwaan and his followers. People who ascribe to this view are known as "Jahmi's". There are a minority, and Muslim theologians consider this interpretation to be incorrect.

2. The most widely accepted interpretation is that God does indeed possess these attributes in a literal sense. God does indeed have hands and a face, but no one says that they are like ours. Seeing as no one has actually seen God, we cannot comprehend the true nature of his physical entity, yet we know it is there. The vast majority of Muslims accept this viewpoint.

2. Similarly, I have also heard that some Salafists believe that Allah literally sits on a throne, whereas most Sunnis do not believe this. Is this true and how is this possible?

The basic principle of the salafists is that we cannot comprehend the true nature of God, it is beyond the reaches of human nature and science. Therefore we cannot answer questions about this type of thing, except that we quote exactly as God said it and forfeit any further speculation.

So in the matter of God upon his throne, the salafists note that God states that he "ascended upon his throne"[57:4], and do not speculate as to how, or what exactly it could mean in a metaphysical sense.

Some other Muslim groups do indeed try to tackle these questions, such as some Sufi sects and the aforementioned Jahmi's, and the results they produce are diverse and numerous.

3. Could you explain Islamic belief about whether Allah directly causes all events? I know that there has been debate about this as well. Does Allah directly cause it to rain, or does Allah just create the natural world and the laws of nature while not necessarily intervening every time a natural event occurs? Does Allah cause all human decisions? Do people therefore have free will? How have Muslims disagreed over this throughout history?

This is one of the earliest controversies in Islamic history, dating back to the time of the four Caliphs.

There persists a small group known as the Qadariyya who hold the controversial opinions here. The first sect within this group hold that, seeing as humans have free will, God has not decreed the future events and holds no knowledge of the future. Such things are in the control if the individual only.

The second subgroup, smaller than the first, hold the exact opposite view. They believe that since God decreed future events, then Humans have no free will. We are forced into our actions and choices, and have no control over ourselves.

The majority view states that both free will and predestination can coincide. This concept takes a while to wrap your head around, but given enough though and study, one can see how it would work.

Now, for God directly causing all events such as rain and, say, the orbits of cosmological bodies, then the answer is both yes and no. Muslims believe that God is ultimately behind everything, but not physically pushing the earth around the sun. He instead set laws by which the creation must function, and they cannot break. For an example, God didn't physically build the earth in the sense that we would understand it, but rather "commanded" the earth to form, and follow a predestined set of rules. This logic applies to the entire creation. Islam defines a miracle as an event where God commands one of his creation to break one or more of these rules for a particular purpose.

By extension, you can deduce that Islam views Science as the study of these rules and welcomes scientific discovery.

4. Does Allah always have to be called "He"? Does this mean that He is male in any way? Would it be incorrect or sinful to call Allah "She" or "It"?

A simple quirk of linguistics. In the Arabic language every word is either masculine or feminine, there is no In between, no concept of "it". For an example, the word for "door"is masculine and has a particular set of grammatical rules for it to follow. The word for "table" is feminine, and has a separate set of rules. Parallels to this can be found in Latin, Spanish, French, and, to a very limited extent, English. It just so happens that the word for God is masculine, and therefore referred to as "He". Theologically speaking, God has no gender.

5. At least some Muslims believe that the Qur'an was never created and has always existed in its original Arabic text with Allah. I thought only Allah is uncreated though. How can there be something distinct from Allah that is eternal and was never created? Isn't Allah the creator of everything including language? Or does this mean that the Qur'an is divine?

This goes back to Gods attributes. The widely accepted view is that they are not created, as they are part of the essence of god. Speech is one of the attributes, and the Quran is the speech of god.

6. Did prophets that preceded Muhammad, like Jesus (as Muslims believe), receive the full revelation of the Qur'an? Do Muslims believe that the teachings of the earlier prophets was the same as Muhammad's but that their followers misinterpreted it and mis-recorded it? Or did the earlier prophets make mistakes in interpreting what was revealed to them?

Islam's teachings are decided into two categories. There are the more spiritual and metaphysical concepts, such as belief in god himself, and the obligation of worshipping none but him. This is coined "The Creed". Then there is the laws, rituals, etc. known as the "Sharia".

Islam teaches that the creed was uniform among all prophets, including Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad. They all taught the oneness of God, and that he alone deserves worship. In contrast, each was given their own "Sharia" tailored to suit the times and cultures to which they were sent.

Islam also says that the teachings of these prophets were distorted over time, which is the reason for the intense focus on accuracy is Islamic acadamia.

At 1/27/2014 5:24:48 PM, rockwater wrote:5. At least some Muslims believe that the Qur'an was never created and has always existed in its original Arabic text with Allah. I thought only Allah is uncreated though. How can there be something distinct from Allah that is eternal and was never created? Isn't Allah the creator of everything including language? Or does this mean that the Qur'an is divine?

This goes back to Gods attributes. The widely accepted view is that they are not created, as they are part of the essence of god. Speech is one of the attributes, and the Quran is the speech of god.

Does this mean that there is something special about Arabic in terms of how Allah speaks? Does Allah think in Arabic, in so much as He thinks? Were the revelations to earlier prophets made in Arabic, even when those prophets spoke Hebrew or Aramaic? Did Arabic always exist eternally in Allah's speech before all other languages were created? Does that make the entire Arabic language, and not just the Qur'an, holier than all other languages?

At 1/27/2014 5:24:48 PM, rockwater wrote:5. At least some Muslims believe that the Qur'an was never created and has always existed in its original Arabic text with Allah. I thought only Allah is uncreated though. How can there be something distinct from Allah that is eternal and was never created? Isn't Allah the creator of everything including language? Or does this mean that the Qur'an is divine?

This goes back to Gods attributes. The widely accepted view is that they are not created, as they are part of the essence of god. Speech is one of the attributes, and the Quran is the speech of god.

Does this mean that there is something special about Arabic in terms of how Allah speaks? Does Allah think in Arabic, in so much as He thinks? Were the revelations to earlier prophets made in Arabic, even when those prophets spoke Hebrew or Aramaic? Did Arabic always exist eternally in Allah's speech before all other languages were created? Does that make the entire Arabic language, and not just the Qur'an, holier than all other languages?

No it does not. There is a narration about Arabic being the language of paradise, but if my memory serves correctly, it is baseless. It certainly says no such thing in the Quran.

My condolences ahead, potbellied, for all the time and effort you've put in learning wrong ideas about God which always happens when Gentiles take it into their heads to start religions based on our Jewish religious concepts.

Here's a basic question that exposes Muhammad's Islam's Fatal Fatal Flaw: How does knowledge of the past supersede knowledge of the present and the future?

All of Islam rests on the absurd idea that human knowledge can be frozen in the past and thus become a Universal Standard for knowledge in our present and for our future, a Universal Standard that cannot ever be questioned.

If science ran on this principle there would be no advancement in scientific knowledge and human beings would still be subject to superstitious priesthoods which in Muslim countries they are. Do you have any counter argument to how irrational a belief it is that one ancient man channeled all wisdom of God into his ideas about the world.

At 1/27/2014 9:14:45 PM, biomystic wrote:My condolences ahead, potbellied, for all the time and effort you've put in learning wrong ideas about God which always happens when Gentiles take it into their heads to start religions based on our Jewish religious concepts.

What exactly makes Judaism so much more special than any other religion?

I did not start this thread to debate whether the teachings of Islam are true or not. I am not a Muslim and do not believe in the teachings of Islam - and I really don't think that is going to change, but I was curious to better understand them. So if you want to argue about whether the teachings of Islam are true or not I can't stop you but know that that was not my intent in starting this thread.

God gave us the Celestial Torah to keep and protect for the benefit of humanity. No other group was given this information about the spiritual relationship between God Most High and His Son, the Messiah, which forms the basis of all human good government from the role of fathers in families to the roles of kings and leaders of nations. Without a Role Model of the Wise and Compassionate Heavenly Father whose Son honors Him by himself being wise and compassionate in his role as Sage King. This is the foundational relationship for human beings to govern themselves wisely. Muhammad never knew this relationship as there is no real Messiah in Muhammad's ideas except a safe far future one that doesn't compete for religious authority with himself. Because Muhammad's religious ideas mean in reality Muhammad is the Only Human Contact with God it forces everyone else to go through him to get to God and that's never been God's way, to put all His marbles into one pot that can disappear in the blink of an eye of history. We Jews have been given our permanent eternal Sign in the heavens that tells the world we will always be here protecting the Celestial Torah because it too has its eternal Sign in the heavens. There is no Sign for Muhammad in the heavens. He wouldn't know what I'm talking about as it happens even my fellow Jewish rabbis know little of the Celestial Torah as it has only recently been recovered.

These are the End Times of all Abrahamic religions including Judaism, Pauline Christianity and Muhammad's Islam. Jewish Gnosticism will survive and has already produced the new spiritual forward movement: the recovery and dissemination of the Celestial Torah information. You can tell the old Judaism by the fact that their rabbis failed to understand why Christ follows the Celestial Torah and David does not. I teach Celestial Torah Christianity to anyone who wants the world's oldest religious belief system traceable back in time and symbolic iconic imagery 35,000 years.

At 1/27/2014 9:14:45 PM, biomystic wrote:My condolences ahead, potbellied, for all the time and effort you've put in learning wrong ideas about God which always happens when Gentiles take it into their heads to start religions based on our Jewish religious concepts.

Here's a basic question that exposes Muhammad's Islam's Fatal Fatal Flaw: How does knowledge of the past supersede knowledge of the present and the future?

All of Islam rests on the absurd idea that human knowledge can be frozen in the past and thus become a Universal Standard for knowledge in our present and for our future, a Universal Standard that cannot ever be questioned.

If science ran on this principle there would be no advancement in scientific knowledge and human beings would still be subject to superstitious priesthoods which in Muslim countries they are. Do you have any counter argument to how irrational a belief it is that one ancient man channeled all wisdom of God into his ideas about the world.

This thread is not to debate the virtue of one belief system over another. I will not engage you on this topic.

I apologize for biomystic. I did not intend in any way to attract this type of conversation to this thread.

No apology needed, potbelly. I'm not offended by Islamic propaganda because I'm a spiritual warrior and this is part of my work in protecting the Celestial Torah from religion stealers. It should be very telling to the wiser viewer of this thread that right off the bat someone wants to protect Islamic beliefs from critical scrutiny. No questions allowed that are critical yet the topic would lead one to believe it's about asking questions about Islamic beliefs. I asked a very pertinent question and would appreciate no ducking an answer as this thread isn't limited to Muslims.

At 1/27/2014 5:24:48 PM, rockwater wrote:Hi! I am not a Muslim and do not wish any disrespect to Islam. I don't know if any Muslims or people who have studied Islam are able to answer my questions, but I have a few about Islam so here goes:

1. I have heard that there has been debate historically in Islam about whether Allah is different from His attributes. Could someone explain what this means?

Meaning if He is independent from His attributes, like if He created them or they too have no beginning as He.

2. Similarly, I have also heard that some Salafists believe that Allah literally sits on a throne, whereas most Sunnis do not believe this. Is this true and how is this possible?

People who are Muslims have to believe that God sits on the Thrown because of the authentic scripture, but some Muslims want to interpret it into something non physical, while salafists ( people who follow Islam in the fashion of the first believers) just affirm it without trying to deviate it from its obvious meaning.

3. Could you explain Islamic belief about whether Allah directly causes all events? I know that there has been debate about this as well. Does Allah directly cause it to rain, or does Allah just create the natural world and the laws of nature while not necessarily intervening every time a natural event occurs? Does Allah cause all human decisions? Do people therefore have free will? How have Muslims disagreed over this throughout history?

No Allah doesn't directly cause each and every thing, and same for decisions, actually if he caused all decision, there would be no more sense to this life that is meant to be a test .. so people do have free will, and Muslims did disagree, about this but if you read Quran , Torah, and Bible you'd easily realise God gave people free will and made them accountable.

4. Does Allah always have to be called "He"? Does this mean that He is male in any way? Would it be incorrect or sinful to call Allah "She" or "It"?

The "she" is a sort of innovation, and the "he" and "it" are the original" so you certainly cannot call God "she" , but for "It" you could depending on the context and if the language allows it, as in semantic language there is no "it".

5. At least some Muslims believe that the Qur'an was never created and has always existed in its original Arabic text with Allah. I thought only Allah is uncreated though. How can there be something distinct from Allah that is eternal and was never created? Isn't Allah the creator of everything including language? Or does this mean that the Qur'an is divine?

Is God speech a creation ? are his actions a creation ? you can't call that a creation in my opinion. they could have not always existed, but this doesn't make them a creation.

6. Did prophets that preceded Muhammad, like Jesus (as Muslims believe), receive the full revelation of the Qur'an? Do Muslims believe that the teachings of the earlier prophets was the same as Muhammad's but that their followers misinterpreted it and mis-recorded it? Or did the earlier prophets make mistakes in interpreting what was revealed to them?

Teachings regarding the creed are the same, that none should be worshipped but God, and that the prophet is a messenger, and that the prophet is the way to God, but not every ritual got to be the same. And Quran was revealed to Muhammed only, and Gospel to Jesus only , those prophets don't have the right to hide revelation.

At 1/28/2014 12:55:23 AM, biomystic wrote:No apology needed, potbelly. I'm not offended by Islamic propaganda because I'm a spiritual warrior and this is part of my work in protecting the Celestial Torah from religion stealers. It should be very telling to the wiser viewer of this thread that right off the bat someone wants to protect Islamic beliefs from critical scrutiny. No questions allowed that are critical yet the topic would lead one to believe it's about asking questions about Islamic beliefs. I asked a very pertinent question and would appreciate no ducking an answer as this thread isn't limited to Muslims.

lol you believe your own book is corrupt so we you keep believing it?

No man is a true believer unless he desires for his brother that, what he desires for himself. - Prophet Muhammad saw

At 1/28/2014 12:55:23 AM, biomystic wrote:No apology needed, potbelly. I'm not offended by Islamic propaganda because I'm a spiritual warrior and this is part of my work in protecting the Celestial Torah from religion stealers. It should be very telling to the wiser viewer of this thread that right off the bat someone wants to protect Islamic beliefs from critical scrutiny. No questions allowed that are critical yet the topic would lead one to believe it's about asking questions about Islamic beliefs. I asked a very pertinent question and would appreciate no ducking an answer as this thread isn't limited to Muslims.

At 1/28/2014 12:55:23 AM, biomystic wrote:No apology needed, potbelly. I'm not offended by Islamic propaganda because I'm a spiritual warrior and this is part of my work in protecting the Celestial Torah from religion stealers. It should be very telling to the wiser viewer of this thread that right off the bat someone wants to protect Islamic beliefs from critical scrutiny. No questions allowed that are critical yet the topic would lead one to believe it's about asking questions about Islamic beliefs. I asked a very pertinent question and would appreciate no ducking an answer as this thread isn't limited to Muslims.

lol you believe your own book is corrupt so we you keep believing it?

Please make sense. What are you talking about?

You said that the bible is corrupt yeah?

No man is a true believer unless he desires for his brother that, what he desires for himself. - Prophet Muhammad saw

At 1/27/2014 5:24:48 PM, rockwater wrote:Hi! I am not a Muslim and do not wish any disrespect to Islam. I don't know if any Muslims or people who have studied Islam are able to answer my questions, but I have a few about Islam so here goes:

1. I have heard that there has been debate historically in Islam about whether Allah is different from His attributes. Could someone explain what this means?

"7 Attributes of Almighty ALLAH (Existence, Power, Hearing, Seeing, Speech, knowledge and Will). But he does not depend on ears,eyes or tongue, since these are all physical form and ALLAH is free from any physical form and need. He sees absolutely and hears absolutely. It's no so that the attributes are the Names alone of His Being. In reality His attributes can't be separated from ALLAH's Being. Through the attributes of ALLAH, we are able to know about Him and His command." His attributes are neither same nor separate from His Being.

2. Similarly, I have also heard that some Salafists believe that Allah literally sits on a throne, whereas most Sunnis do not believe this. Is this true and how is this possible?

To comprehend Almighty ALLAH's Being, by mean of reason is absolutely impossible. Because anything which can be understood can be comprehended and encircled by mind and there is nothing that can encircle or comprehend ALLAH's Being. Thus human mind can't comprehend Almighty ALLAH Being as it's beyond the understanding of creation. However through the attributes of ALLAH, we are able to know about Him and His command.

Almighty ALLAH is free from need, not dependent on anyone or anything. ALLAH is free from shape, size, space, direction, time and all that which is created.

Surah As'Shura {42} Verse 11: "The Creator of the heavens and the earth. He has made for you mates from yourselves, and for the cattle (also) mates. By this means He creates you (in the wombs). There is nothing like Him; and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer."

Surah Ar'rad {13} Verse 2: "Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see, then on Arsh {i.e. throne} established Istawa {in a manner deserving of majestay of Allah}; He has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law)! Each one runs (its course) for a term appointed. He doth regulate all affairs, explaining the signs in detail, that ye may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord."

Surah Imran {3} Verse 7: "He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses Muhkamat; they are the foundation of the Book: others are Mutashabiyat. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part there of that is Tashabih {i.e. indefinitive}, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding."

HENCE Beleif in 'istiwa' meaning 'above' does give it meaning that Allah is like his creation in His: 'rising above the throne'. Istiwa is from Mutashabi'hat, hence definitive meaning is not known, translation is known, but translation is in contradiction with: "... Laysaka Misli shay ..." {i.e. "... nothing like Him ..."} therefore we do not translate it, and should not translate it.

3. Could you explain Islamic belief about whether Allah directly causes all events? I know that there has been debate about this as well. Does Allah directly cause it to rain, or does Allah just create the natural world and the laws of nature while not necessarily intervening every time a natural event occurs? Does Allah cause all human decisions? Do people therefore have free will? How have Muslims disagreed over this throughout history?

Almighty ALLAH is free from need, not dependent on anyone or anything. But to use means is a way.MEANS: In everything that Allah does there are a lot of reasons behind it whether we understand them or not. It is his reasoning that He has made one thing to be a cause for another thing. He made Fire to be the cause of heat. He made water to be the cause to cool something. He made the eye so that one could see, He made the ear so that one could hear. If he wished He could have made fire to cool (as became cool for Ibrahim Peace and Blessings be upon Him), water to heat, eye to hear, ear to see.

DESTINY: Within the knowledge of Allah there is, what was going to happen in the world and whatever servants were going to do, Allah found this out from the beginning and wrote it down. He wrote goodness in some people's fate and wrote badness in another person's fate. He did not make the person helpless by writing this down, but wrote down what the servant was going to do. If he wrote badness in a person's fate then this is because the person was going to perform badness and if he wrote goodness in a person's fate then this is because the person was going to perform goodness. Allah's knowledge or due to Allah writing this down did not make a person helpless.Rule: A person should only think that they are not helpless like stones and therefore cannot do anything according to their will, but actually Allah has given humans the power to do as they please and the reward and sin is based upon this power of will. To believe yourself as totally without will or totally helpless is a misguided belief.

4. Does Allah always have to be called "He"? Does this mean that He is male in any way? Would it be incorrect or sinful to call Allah "She" or "It"?

5. At least some Muslims believe that the Qur'an was never created and has always existed in its original Arabic text with Allah. I thought only Allah is uncreated though. How can there be something distinct from Allah that is eternal and was never created? Isn't Allah the creator of everything including language? Or does this mean that the Qur'an is divine?

Except for Allah's Self and His characteristics every thing is created meaning it did not exist but was created after. To call the characteristics of Allah a creation is to go astray and a bad belief.Allah is one. He is Pure, He is Unique, he is free from faults. He is the TOTAL of all qualities and excellence. No one in any thing is equal to him or is level with him or higher than him. In his qualities of characteristics he has always existed and will always remain. Eternity is only for his self and his characteristics. (in other words, considering attributes as creation means they were not before then came into existence, this would be against the belief of Excellence)

His speech is free from sound, our Quran recitation, writing and reading is created but which is recited, written and read isn't created. His attributes are neither same nor separate from His Being.

6. Did prophets that preceded Muhammad, like Jesus (as Muslims believe), receive the full revelation of the Qur'an? Do Muslims believe that the teachings of the earlier prophets was the same as Muhammad's but that their followers misinterpreted it and mis-recorded it? Or did the earlier prophets make mistakes in interpreting what was revealed to them?

"Allah Ta'ala revealed to his Messengers his statement and message. Tauret was revealed to Hazrat Moosa, Zuboor was revealed to Hazrat Da'ood, Injeel was revealed to Hazrat Eisa and many other books were revealed to many other Prophets. The FOLLOWERS of these Prophets altered these books, added or extracted statements and therefore changed the orders of Allah. Then Allah Ta'ala revealed to our Master, Muhammad (Peace and Blessing be upon Him) the Holy Quran. There will now, not come a new Prophet nor a new book, those who believe against this are not Muslims."

Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~

Repeat: Salvation is of the Jews. No one else was given the Celestial Torah and certainly Muhammad doesn't know what it is any more than the rabbis who forebears lost it when they created their earthly Torah substitute. Now the Celestial Torah is recovered and your repeating cut-n-paste Muslim doctrines that as we see are without spiritual foundation is rather pointless, isn't it?