Re: [hreg] what's so great about hybrids?

Go VW baby, they have several models with 40+ miles per gallon, the TDI (diesel) is over fifty, and stylish as well. Hard to find a good TDI used, they are

Message 1 of 14
, Aug 14, 2005

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Go VW baby,
they have several models with 40+ miles per gallon, the TDI (diesel) is over
fifty, and stylish as well.

Hard to find a good TDI used, they are bringing premiums.

I traded in my suburban for a Passat Wagon 1999 and although is is smaller
it is much more efficient and peppy, not to mention cooler.

I get about 28 mpg and drive hard most of the time. It is much closer to
the ground and sometimes I feel like I am lost amidst the titans but I just
whip around them and wave as they stop at the gas station. :)

Correction: I incorrectly said it was a $2000 tax credit. I just checked
the IRS website and it is a $2000 deduction. So the actual after-tax
savings for people in the 28% tax bracket is $560, not enough to make up the
difference in cost of the hybrid vs. conventional car. So, I think unless
gas prices go up considerably more, it still may not make economic sense to
the consumer (unless you want to gamble on hypothetical advantages in
depreciation, etc.).

Robert

> -----Original Message-----
> From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Robert Johnston
> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 2:02 PM
> To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [hreg] what's so great about hybrids?
>
> I agree that they are economically attractive. When the premium pricing
> disappears, they may become significantly more so. But when my colleague
> purchased her hybrid (early 2005), this wasn't true. If you compared a
> hybrid with a similar car, for example, compared the Honda Civic Hybrid
> vs.
> the Honda Civic standard, allowing for the difference in price vs. the
> difference in fuel consumption, the hybrid proved to be more expensive to
> own and operate. Comparing a Prius vs. an SUV is not a fair pricing
> comparison; you need to compare comparable vehicles. As for the
> depreciation, that is a transient thing; I wouldn't count on it
> persisting.
> Prius isn't the first car model that was "hot" for a time. (I remember
> when
> the Chrysler PT Cruiser first came out and sold for well above MSRP, those
> that got theirs early could flip them for a nice profit or at least not
> lose
> money to depreciation. But see what they go for now!).
>
> Just for grins, I redid the numbers as I did before I purchased my Honda
> Civic a few months ago. From Carpoint.com, a base model Civic Hybrid goes
> for $19,900 MSRP and $18,183 base invoice. Good luck getting one for less
> than MSRP, of course! On the other hand, a regular Civic LX 5-spd with
> front side airbags (the closest match I can find to the Hybrid) goes for
> $15,860 MSRP and $14497 retail. Since I just bought a Civic for a couple
> hundred over invoice, I know that is feasible. Just the same, let's be
> real
> conservative and assume a $4000 difference in cost. If we assume 50:50
> city/hwy driving, then the Civic Hybrid averages 48.5 mpg and the standard
> Civic averages 35 mpg. If we assume you own the car for 100,000 miles,
> then
> you will save 795 gal. Assume gas at $2.50/gal, and that is $1988 or
> approximately half the difference in cost.
>
> Now, when I was contemplating purchasing a hybrid, and when my colleague
> actually did purchase one, gas was cheaper. Also, the hybrid tax credit
> was
> small and disappearing. Today the situation is different. With the new
> energy law and tax credit extension, the $2000 credit would more than
> cover
> the remaining cost difference, especially when you take into account that
> it
> is $2000 in post-tax savings whereas gas is purchased with pre-tax
> dollars.
> So, yes, the hybrid makes economic sense today, whereas it didn't in the
> period I was referring to. (The "economic sense" is artificial, since it
> is
> just government stimulus, but to the consumer it is real money
> nonetheless.
> Please don't start an argument on the true cost of oil, etc., either. I'm
> just addressing the consumer's viewpoint).
>
> It should be noted that unknowns include future resale value, and
> reliability/future maintenance costs of hybrids.
>
> Maybe someone else will have a different perspective on this.
>
> Robert Johnston
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J.
> > P. Malone
> > Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 9:06 AM
> > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [hreg] what's so great about hybrids?
> >
> > No economic benefit to a car that gets over 50+ mpg??? Can you explain
> > further this comment?
> > Compared to what?
> > The Prius is not very expensive to purchase by comparison to other
> > vehicles,
> > such as SUV, etc.
> > Without being an Scientist/engineer type, I would think that the fuel
> > dollar
> > savings over a 5-6 year period, combined with less depreciation would be
> > an
> > economic benefit.
> >
> > Currently used Prius are selling for more that the new ones, because of
> > the
> > long wait to get a new one. So there is zero depreciation other than
> > repairs over the longer term. I have a Toyota which has had minimal
> > repairs
> > over 10 years.
> >
> > Please explain, I must be missing a major point. Thanks.
> >
> > J. Patrick Malone
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> > Robert
> > Johnston
> > Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 7:06 AM
> > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [hreg] what's so great about hybrids?
> >
> > I drove by my local Exxon yesterday and saw regular at $2.50/gal.
> Granny
> > will probably croak next time she tanks up.
> >
> > I don't know much about cars, but what was the performance like on your
> > Civic VX? If I recall correctly, its technology gave it better
> > performance
> > than other small, efficient cars like the Geo Metro. But I think the
> > hybrids today are offering even better performance, aren't they? I'm
> > assuming that is the draw. By performance I'm referring to
> acceleration,
> > mostly. I have a colleague who drives a Prius and she said she bought
> it
> > because she liked the technology, bells and whistles. It was "cool".
> She
> > readily admitted there wasn't any economic benefit. She's also a
> > scientist/engineer type.
> >
> > Robert Johnston
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> > Paul
> > > Archer
> > > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 10:06 PM
> > > To: Houston RE Group
> > > Subject: [hreg] what's so great about hybrids?
> > >
> > > (Forgive me if I've asked this question before. I think I brought it
> up
> > in
> > > another forum, but it might have been here.)
> > >
> > > While reading an interesting article on someone modifying his Toyota
> > > Prius,
> > > I noticed that according to the article, typical mileage is 45mpg.
> > > According
> > > to Edmunds, it's 51mpg highway / 60mpg city.
> > > While those are very good numbers, I had a '92 Civic VX that got 48mpg
> > > city/57mpg highway. That's not quite as good as a hybrid, but it's
> > pretty
> > > damn good for a regular car.
> > > So are people enamored of hybrids because it's new technology, or
> > because
> > > of
> > > a promise of much great fuel efficiency, or what? And why isn't the
> > > technology in the '92 Civic VX being used in practically every car out
> > > there?
> > > And while I'm ranting, why the hell was a little granny driving a
> Nissan
> > > 5.6L V8 SUV on the road next to me yesterday? What is up with this
> > "bigger
> > > is better, so blotting out the sun huge is best" mentality?
> > >
> > > Paul Archer
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------
> > > "We Americans, we're a simple people...
> > > but piss us off, and we'll bomb your cities."
> > > --------------Robin Williams------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
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Yahoo! Groups Links

Israel Palacios

I just paid 2.53 a gallon in Montrose and gas is expected to rise within the week. I think that a Prius or Civic Hybrid would pay for itself over time if gas

Message 2 of 14
, Aug 14, 2005

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I just paid 2.53 a gallon in Montrose and gas is expected to rise within the
week. I think that a Prius or Civic Hybrid would pay for itself over time
if gas keeps going up. What should really take place is a premium price for
those to drive inefficient vehicles. The people that drive Hummers pay the
same price even though their vehicles use more. Why should those of us who
are concerned with Global Warming, Energy Security and its effects on
Geopolitical events pay the same price as those ignorant idiots who choose
to ignore those subjects? No one is forcing them to buy more efficient
vehicles but why should I have pay at the pump for their choices. Also,
isn't the recently passed energy bill full of giveaways to the oil
companies, why should they be profiting from both consumers and political
connections. We are paying them twice, once at the pump and second through
their subsidization with out tax dollars. If the American people want to
continue their empirical war in IraQ the children of those who voted for
Bush should be drafted first.

No economic benefit to a car that gets over 50+ mpg??? Can you explain
further this comment?
Compared to what?
The Prius is not very expensive to purchase by comparison to other vehicles,
such as SUV, etc.
Without being an Scientist/engineer type, I would think that the fuel dollar
savings over a 5-6 year period, combined with less depreciation would be an
economic benefit.

Currently used Prius are selling for more that the new ones, because of the
long wait to get a new one. So there is zero depreciation other than
repairs over the longer term. I have a Toyota which has had minimal repairs
over 10 years.

I drove by my local Exxon yesterday and saw regular at $2.50/gal. Granny
will probably croak next time she tanks up.

I don't know much about cars, but what was the performance like on your
Civic VX? If I recall correctly, its technology gave it better performance
than other small, efficient cars like the Geo Metro. But I think the
hybrids today are offering even better performance, aren't they? I'm
assuming that is the draw. By performance I'm referring to acceleration,
mostly. I have a colleague who drives a Prius and she said she bought it
because she liked the technology, bells and whistles. It was "cool". She
readily admitted there wasn't any economic benefit. She's also a
scientist/engineer type.

Robert Johnston

> -----Original Message-----
> From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
> Archer
> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 10:06 PM
> To: Houston RE Group
> Subject: [hreg] what's so great about hybrids?
>
> (Forgive me if I've asked this question before. I think I brought it up in
> another forum, but it might have been here.)
>
> While reading an interesting article on someone modifying his Toyota
> Prius,
> I noticed that according to the article, typical mileage is 45mpg.
> According
> to Edmunds, it's 51mpg highway / 60mpg city.
> While those are very good numbers, I had a '92 Civic VX that got 48mpg
> city/57mpg highway. That's not quite as good as a hybrid, but it's pretty
> damn good for a regular car.
> So are people enamored of hybrids because it's new technology, or because
> of
> a promise of much great fuel efficiency, or what? And why isn't the
> technology in the '92 Civic VX being used in practically every car out
> there?
> And while I'm ranting, why the hell was a little granny driving a Nissan
> 5.6L V8 SUV on the road next to me yesterday? What is up with this "bigger
> is better, so blotting out the sun huge is best" mentality?
>
> Paul Archer
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------
> "We Americans, we're a simple people...
> but piss us off, and we'll bomb your cities."
> --------------Robin Williams------------------
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I drove by my local Exxon yesterday and saw regular at $2.50/gal. Granny
will probably croak next time she tanks up.

I don't know much about cars, but what was the performance like on your
Civic VX? If I recall correctly, its technology gave it better performance
than other small, efficient cars like the Geo Metro. But I think the
hybrids today are offering even better performance, aren't they? I'm
assuming that is the draw. By performance I'm referring to acceleration,
mostly. I have a colleague who drives a Prius and she said she bought it
because she liked the technology, bells and whistles. It was "cool". She
readily admitted there wasn't any economic benefit. She's also a
scientist/engineer type.

Robert Johnston

> -----Original Message-----
> From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
> Archer
> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 10:06 PM
> To: Houston RE Group
> Subject: [hreg] what's so great about hybrids?
>
> (Forgive me if I've asked this question before. I think I brought it up in
> another forum, but it might have been here.)
>
> While reading an interesting article on someone modifying his Toyota
> Prius,
> I noticed that according to the article, typical mileage is 45mpg.
> According
> to Edmunds, it's 51mpg highway / 60mpg city.
> While those are very good numbers, I had a '92 Civic VX that got 48mpg
> city/57mpg highway. That's not quite as good as a hybrid, but it's pretty
> damn good for a regular car.
> So are people enamored of hybrids because it's new technology, or because
> of
> a promise of much great fuel efficiency, or what? And why isn't the
> technology in the '92 Civic VX being used in practically every car out
> there?
> And while I'm ranting, why the hell was a little granny driving a Nissan
> 5.6L V8 SUV on the road next to me yesterday? What is up with this "bigger
> is better, so blotting out the sun huge is best" mentality?
>
> Paul Archer
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------
> "We Americans, we're a simple people...
> but piss us off, and we'll bomb your cities."
> --------------Robin Williams------------------
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

With respect to the price of energy, hedge funds like the one T. Boone Pickens operates are part of the problem. Those funds have been buying futures contacts

Message 4 of 14
, Aug 15, 2005

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With respect to the price of energy, hedge funds like the one T. Boone Pickens operates are part of the problem. Those funds have been buying futures contacts on the NYMEX for the last year pushing up the price. When he's quoted as saying "Oil prices going higher", he's talking his position. The higher the price goes the more money he makes, several hundred million last year alone. Its not a secret, see the attached link. http://www.forbes.com/energy/2004/11/04/cx_tm_1104boonelander.html

I drove by my local Exxon yesterday and saw regular at $2.50/gal. Granny will probably croak next time she tanks up.

I don't know much about cars, but what was the performance like on your Civic VX? If I recall correctly, its technology gave it better performance than other small, efficient cars like the Geo Metro. But I think the hybrids today are offering even better performance, aren't they? I'm assuming that is the draw. By performance I'm referring to acceleration, mostly. I have a colleague who drives a Prius and she said she bought it because she liked the technology, bells and whistles. It was "cool". She readily admitted there wasn't any economic benefit. She's also a scientist/engineer type.

Robert Johnston

> -----Original Message-----
> From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Paul Archer
> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 10:06 PM
> To: Houston RE Group
> Subject: [hreg] what's so great about hybrids?
>
> (Forgive me if I've asked this question before. I think I brought it
> up in another forum, but it might have been here.)
>
> While reading an interesting article on someone modifying his Toyota
> Prius, I noticed that according to the article, typical mileage is
> 45mpg. According
> to Edmunds, it's 51mpg highway / 60mpg city.
> While those are very good numbers, I had a '92 Civic VX that got 48mpg
> city/57mpg highway. That's not quite as good as a hybrid, but it's pretty
> damn good for a regular car.
> So are people enamored of hybrids because it's new technology, or because
> of
> a promise of much great fuel efficiency, or what? And why isn't the
> technology in the '92 Civic VX being used in practically every car out
> there?
> And while I'm ranting, why the hell was a little granny driving a Nissan
> 5.6L V8 SUV on the road next to me yesterday? What is up with this "bigger
> is better, so blotting out the sun huge is best" mentality?
>
> Paul Archer
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------
> "We Americans, we're a simple people...
> but piss us off, and we'll bomb your cities." --------------Robin
> Williams------------------
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

With respect to the price of energy, hedge funds like the one T. Boone
Pickens operates are part of the problem. Those funds have been buying
futures contacts on the NYMEX for the last year pushing up the price. When
he's quoted as saying "Oil prices going higher", he's talking his position.
The higher the price goes the more money he makes, several hundred million
last year alone. Its not a secret, see the attached link.http://www.forbes.com/energy/2004/11/04/cx_tm_1104boonelander.html

I drove by my local Exxon yesterday and saw regular at $2.50/gal. Granny
will probably croak next time she tanks up.

I don't know much about cars, but what was the performance like on your
Civic VX? If I recall correctly, its technology gave it better performance
than other small, efficient cars like the Geo Metro. But I think the
hybrids today are offering even better performance, aren't they? I'm
assuming that is the draw. By performance I'm referring to acceleration,
mostly. I have a colleague who drives a Prius and she said she bought it
because she liked the technology, bells and whistles. It was "cool". She
readily admitted there wasn't any economic benefit. She's also a
scientist/engineer type.

Robert Johnston

> -----Original Message-----
> From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Paul Archer
> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 10:06 PM
> To: Houston RE Group
> Subject: [hreg] what's so great about hybrids?
>
> (Forgive me if I've asked this question before. I think I brought it
> up in another forum, but it might have been here.)
>
> While reading an interesting article on someone modifying his Toyota
> Prius, I noticed that according to the article, typical mileage is
> 45mpg. According
> to Edmunds, it's 51mpg highway / 60mpg city.
> While those are very good numbers, I had a '92 Civic VX that got 48mpg
> city/57mpg highway. That's not quite as good as a hybrid, but it's pretty
> damn good for a regular car.
> So are people enamored of hybrids because it's new technology, or because
> of
> a promise of much great fuel efficiency, or what? And why isn't the
> technology in the '92 Civic VX being used in practically every car out
> there?
> And while I'm ranting, why the hell was a little granny driving a Nissan
> 5.6L V8 SUV on the road next to me yesterday? What is up with this "bigger
> is better, so blotting out the sun huge is best" mentality?
>
> Paul Archer
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------
> "We Americans, we're a simple people...
> but piss us off, and we'll bomb your cities." --------------Robin
> Williams------------------
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>