on a single 1h vs 2h you would be correct that the 2h would have a bigger uptime.... but we are talking about DW with 2 of the same enchant which stack thus increasing the uptime of the 2 1hs. Proc overlap (aka refreshing the buff) does in fact reduce uptime since we cut off the last x seconds of the buff to refresh it, but we have 2 weps and therefore 2 enchants each with their own uptime.

*sigh* once addons are enabled I will download a proc/uptime addon just to check this once and for all >.< lol

As far as Recoil is concerned, I think you hit more often with 2 1hs vs 1 2h... even after the monk ability (the name escapes me atm) that increases attack speed with 2h even under hit cap... but I will have to run more tests I'll be back soon with the results

I'm not sure if that's intended. If tanking enchants really are supposed to have a bigger uptime than 2h, then there's a big problem. Weapon enchants are actually pretty important, and if Blizzard really wants players to choose, then this could be problematic. In terms of recoil, I think that they'd have to have a pretty significant lead on hits to overtake energy generation, since it does half its value. Still, there'll be a point where it will overtake 2h energy, and another guy said that point is at the yellow hit cap. I don't have the formula for the ability in front of me so I cannot prove it, but that's very distressing to me if it's true.

I'm not sure if that's intended. If tanking enchants really are supposed to have a bigger uptime than 2h, then there's a big problem. Weapon enchants are actually pretty important, and if Blizzard really wants players to choose, then this could be problematic. In terms of recoil, I think that they'd have to have a pretty significant lead on hits to overtake energy generation, since it does half its value. Still, there'll be a point where it will overtake 2h energy, and another guy said that point is at the yellow hit cap. I don't have the formula for the ability in front of me so I cannot prove it, but that's very distressing to me if it's true.

btw I don't use the standard 2h Agi enchant on my 2h for all this testing.... I have 3 windwalk enchants, 1 on each 1h and the 3rd on my 2h staff (more accurate testing that way, plus I like the dodge even though it's a proc and not static). Again, 2 windwalk enchants will mathematically have a higher uptime than just one, given that it is a PPM. They don't share a CD with each other, so you can have 2 proc at once, and they don't have an ICD (hence the refreshing in my tests) which can cause them to seem like the proc rate is higher than normal, but when looking at the course of an entire fight (and not just minute by minute) the average PPM per enchant remains the same whether it is on a 1h or 2h, 2.6 speed or 3.0 speed, haste effects, etc.

oh also, did you read my post after what you quoted? added much much more info after that line

btw I don't use the standard 2h Agi enchant on my 2h for all this testing.... I have 3 windwalk enchants, 1 on each 1h and the 3rd on my 2h staff (more accurate testing that way, plus I like the dodge even though it's a proc and not static). Again, 2 windwalk enchants will mathematically have a higher uptime than just one, given that it is a PPM. They don't share a CD with each other, so you can have 2 proc at once, and they don't have an ICD (hence the refreshing in my tests) which can cause them to seem like the proc rate is higher than normal, but when looking at the course of an entire fight (and not just minute by minute) the average PPM per enchant remains the same whether it is on a 1h or 2h, 2.6 speed or 3.0 speed, haste effects, etc.

oh also, did you read my post after what you quoted? added much much more info after that line

That's, er, really confusing. You're saying that they'll have higher uptime, but they'll overlap a bit and thus have less uptime.

And I did see the rest of your post, hence my comments on Recoil. I'd much prefer some clarification on the average uptime for each type of weapon, instead of just procs. I don't have the tools nor the time to really do such at the moment, and as I've said, if weapon enchant uptime is significantly greater with dual wield than two handed, there's something wrong here in terms of 2h/DW balance.

I can run an uptime test if necessary, but I think you are confused a bit. In theory, we should get double the amount of procs when DW compared to 2h (like in my test). Again, in theory, this should mean double the uptime, however, take into account that the buff may either stack (if they both proc) or refresh (if one procs twice). In either case, this will lower the total uptime, but will still be an increase over the use of just 1 enchant alone i.e. a net gain.

I haven't slept yet, and that is the simplest way I can explain it without going into the math and whatnot that even I don't fully understand (lol), but after some sleep, I will log back on the beta and run an uptime test (and I'll also check Tiger Stikes uptime while I'm at it since it seems pretty beneficial for the spec)

btw, 5 mins is a good time for a test right? I've seen people do as low as 3 mins and as high as 10, but I figure 5 is a good average for most fights.

That's a lot better, and that was the information I was looking for, thank you.

If it has 10% more uptime... then according to my napkin math it translates to roughly... 60 additional dodge rating on average for dual wield, which is again according to my terrible napkin math, 0.3% more dodge. A nice addition, but not that bad. The big question at this point is whether or not the 1% expertise when using a specific type of weapon will be big enough to make DW better.

Well as far as I know, parry haste is gone (or at least very rare) so the only thing that expertise would be used for is either resources or some extra tank damage. Plus with us using Agi gear, there should be enough hit/exp already on gear so we may not even have to be capped (might still need some though) and can just go for some extra avoidance. In short, I don't think the expertise bonus for some races is enough to justify taking said race for one that has other benefits like stoneskin (which you would still get the exp with maces in this case) or the food buff increase or hell even the troll's negligent combat health regen.

Which is nice if we don't blow all our Guard's by then, definitely. Elsewise we'll have to refresh it. Still, its a niceish change. I'd have prefered it not getting buffed in exchange for Elusive Brew not getting nerfed, though : /

Been playing my brewmaster more extensively the last few days since the new build and I must say they're coming together pretty nice. I'm starting to get a hang of the rotation/prio we have. Mainly revolving around keeping Shuffle up and using TP in between to make sure I can put up buffed Guard fast. Once I have both those running I alternate between KS/Jab/Expel Harm to generate Chi and using BoF and Chi Sphere when I have spare Chi and both Guard and Shuffle are up. It's actually pretty fun we got a wide array of abilities we can use and energy regenerates fast enough making it have a nice synergy with Chi generation. I can see this guys going the right way, I ran multiple dungeons and did not feel squishy at all. At 85 in Temple of the Jade Serpent I never was in fear of dying not even on Liu Fireheart. Stormstout Brewery was bit harder but that was probably because our healer wasn't doing very well.

Brewmaster Rotation Thoughts..

Originally Posted by Solz

Been playing my brewmaster more extensively the last few days since the new build and I must say they're coming together pretty nice. I'm starting to get a hang of the rotation/prio we have. Mainly revolving around keeping Shuffle up and using TP in between to make sure I can put up buffed Guard fast. Once I have both those running I alternate between KS/Jab/Expel Harm to generate Chi and using BoF and Chi Sphere when I have spare Chi and both Guard and Shuffle are up. It's actually pretty fun we got a wide array of abilities we can use and energy regenerates fast enough making it have a nice synergy with Chi generation. I can see this guys going the right way, I ran multiple dungeons and did not feel squishy at all. At 85 in Temple of the Jade Serpent I never was in fear of dying not even on Liu Fireheart. Stormstout Brewery was bit harder but that was probably because our healer wasn't doing very well.

I am not so sure how this effects the rotation but i mapped out the rotation for a Brewmaster "NOT" taking into account talents and created a rotation that maximizes CD coverage and maximizes threat generation. I will try to work on a new rotation map with these changes but i don't think they do much.. I see some weaknesses in the rotation. For example i think you almost have to either take the talent for on demand chi like Battle Shout for rage or get the random 1 chi. I think there are WAY WAY too many CD's to manage and be as mobile and mouse intensive as the class is.. Powerauras is going to be your friend BIG TIME on this class

My problem is there are gaps in Chi.. There are points in the rotation where you have 1 or zero chi.. If some of our CD's are chi based we will be vulnerable if the bosses abilities just happen to spawn during those critical times... I circled my concern areas in the 2nd picture..

I think keg smash should be on a shorter CD.. 8 seconds.. then it fits nicely with Blackout kick and breath of fire and really simplifies the rotation. Purifying Brew and where to use it is kind of a guesstimate.. I am thinking 2 or 3 Blackout kicks you need to purge the damage but i don't like that it costs chi.. I would rather that ability be on a 3 or 6 sec cool down and cost energy.. If you just look at the chart you can see Breath of Fire and Blackout Kick are pretty consistent same with Tiger Palm.. The timing on Keg smash and Expel harm make it awkward especially if your trying to fit in guard at various spots.. Jab has no real set pattern except sets of 3 and 1 later on after you get settled from the pull..

Overall i think they can make this cleaner

**** Note i did not show a dot bar for Tiger Palms Buff... its assumed that it needs to be refreshed every 15secs or it falls off

Just feels clunky right now.. I will post what i think it should be later

Notes on how to read the imageswhite circles - indicate ChiGreen#'s on the icons - indicate the chi cost to use that abilityGrid - is seconds and the rotation goes for 60+ seconds

I don't think you'd want to macro your taunts into an ability, but I could see a case being made to macro Purifying Brew into Expel Harm or something like that. If you have 1+ Chi saved up, it will cast both at the same time, you'll end up with the same amount of Chi, and 40 less energy.

If you were really ambitious (or lazy and bad perhaps) you could macro it into Jab. You'd be awfully Chi starved but I suppose if you stacked mastery it might be worth it as you'd take almost no stagger damage and you'd be mitigating so much to stagger anyway.

I don't think you'd want to macro your taunts into an ability, but I could see a case being made to macro Purifying Brew into Expel Harm or something like that. If you have 1+ Chi saved up, it will cast both at the same time, you'll end up with the same amount of Chi, and 40 less energy.

If you were really ambitious (or lazy and bad perhaps) you could macro it into Jab. You'd be awfully Chi starved but I suppose if you stacked mastery it might be worth it as you'd take almost no stagger damage and you'd be mitigating so much to stagger anyway.

I don't plan on macroing anything into anything else. Taunts aren't something you macro into an ability since, well, yeah. That meses too much with agro and can cause issues. Neither do I think macroying PB into EH is a good idea, as you're going to be using EH a lot, possibly moreso than how much you use PB, considering the new system. Less chi means less BOK's which means less parry and more damage taken overall. Aside from that, I still wouldn't like this because if you need to use PB, but you're at a solid level of health at that point for a variety of reasons, now you don't have EH up if you need it.