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Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

PSU, I was wondering when you would chime in. Your post is very reasonable and well thought out and it must be painful to be fighting with people on PSU boards.

Originally Posted by psuasskicker

You can't, if you're the NCAA. All the people who were involved are no longer with the program.

That's not how the NCAA works, nor should it. If you can make NCAA problems go away by firing people, there suddenly becomes a market for people whose sole job it is to cheat until the program gets caught, collect their severance package and move on to the next town, where they can be the professional fall guy again.

The NCAA can and should punish programs as a deterrent, and that means punishing even if the principal ne'erdowells have moved on.

There are two questions, both of which you touch on:

1. Does the NCAA have any authority here, or, in other words, was this sufficiently connected to the athletics program at PSU?

2. If so, what's the appropriate penalty?

Like Ravor, I'm 100% certain that if the answer to question 1 is "yes," there will be a penalty, PSU. But, like yourself, I do not think there would be a "death penalty." If there is any discipline, I expect it would be the loss of a year, which would be a tremendous financial and programming loss for the university.

Festivus

His definitions and arguments were so clear in his own mind that he was unable to understand how any reasonable person could honestly differ with him.

Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

I think you guys advocating the so called "death penalty" are missing the point. What went on here wasn't to benefit the on the field performance of the football team. This is about criminal behavior by people who happened to be involved with the football program and university. NCAA sanctions are given because of improper actions by and for the actual players. This goes way beyond that. The University itself and the principles involved need to held accountable, but O'Brien and a bunch of kids who had nothing to do with and no knowledge of the criminal behavior and coverup that took place. The proper way to handle this is jail time for the people involved in the acts and coverup, and reparations to the victims by PSU and perhaps even the Commonwealth of PA.

Never get in a fight with a pig; you both get muddy, and the pig likes it...

Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

I agree with the previous post about this being more of a criminal matter than a NCAA matter. All those who were complicit need to be dealt with through the legal system.

Whoever is responsible for handling PR for the Paterno family should resign immediately. Allowing them to comment on this fiasco is tragically stupid. They need to take the settlement money and move as far away from Happy Valley as possible. And then they should never make any comments again.

Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

Originally Posted by esmd

I think you guys advocating the so called "death penalty" are missing the point. What went on here wasn't to benefit the on the field performance of the football team. This is about criminal behavior by people who happened to be involved with the football program and university. NCAA sanctions are given because of improper actions by and for the actual players. This goes way beyond that. The University itself and the principles involved need to held accountable, but O'Brien and a bunch of kids who had nothing to do with and no knowledge of the criminal behavior and coverup that took place. The proper way to handle this is jail time for the people involved in the acts and coverup, and reparations to the victims by PSU and perhaps even the Commonwealth of PA.

You really believe that hiding this information for 14 years did not benefit the football program?

Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

Originally Posted by esmd

I think you guys advocating the so called "death penalty" are missing the point. What went on here wasn't to benefit the on the field performance of the football team. This is about criminal behavior by people who happened to be involved with the football program and university. NCAA sanctions are given because of improper actions by and for the actual players. This goes way beyond that. The University itself and the principles involved need to held accountable, but O'Brien and a bunch of kids who had nothing to do with and no knowledge of the criminal behavior and coverup that took place. The proper way to handle this is jail time for the people involved in the acts and coverup, and reparations to the victims by PSU and perhaps even the Commonwealth of PA.

I'm going to quibble with you a little here.

First, I'm not sure that there are many people calling for the NCAA to step in with the death penalty. One person, Terpsfan82 suggested it about 20 posts back. That lead to a lot of discussion over whether the NCAA has any jurisdiction here, and when the so called death penalty should or should not be applied.

Whether it's the death penalty or something less, I think your issue, if I read your post correctly, is that the football team should not be the target of the NCAA because the football team didn't benefit directly from the terrible wrong doing, and therefore this should just be a criminal matter -- punish the men who knew and did nothing, but don't punish the players and coaches of the football team who were never involved and didn't benefit on the scoreboard. If I am fairly characterizing your point.

I have to differ with that point of view. I say you can't separate the football team and the university. They are inseparable. If anything, the football team is the tail that wags this immense dog -- which really is the disturbing part of all this (aside from what Sandusky himself did) -- and that seems to be all too common with big time athletics.

The men who covered this up can be held criminally liable, fine. But I think it goes beyond them.

Ask yourself, why did they do it? To benefit themselves? No. If they were acting selfishly they'd distance themselves as far as possible from Sandusky by turning him in as fast as possible and telling the world they did their jobs the instant all this came to light.

They did it to protect, not themselves, but the football team and the largess the team brings to the university. The football team was the sacred cow that needed to be protected above all else -- themselves, the university, Sandusky's boys.

They did it to save the team from the terrible PR fallout, which would damage the proud tradition they were protecting, damage recruiting, damage the ability to win games for years to come, damage revenue, and ultimately damage the university, which feeds off the lifeblood of the football program.

To argue that this story is bigger than football misses what to me is a glaring point: nothing is bigger than football in the upside-down world of big-university systems. This entire story proves it. If we all accept the argument it insn't about football, and if football is allowed to remain on the pedestal at Penn State, then I think we, like so many at Penn State, have our heads in the sand.

Does that mean the NCAA needs do the dirty work, and come in with its death penalty? I don't know. It really doesn't matter to me who presides over this mess, but I do believe that the football team needs to be knocked down a notch. University presidents and trustees need to get the message that they need to monitor the men and women who are charged with making good decisions, or they won't have a university to preside over anymore.

I understand the argument that the current coaches and players who didn't cause the problem should not be the ones to suffer for the sins of a few men. That sounds fair on the surface, but it isn't the way the world works.

When institutional leaders eff-up, the entire institution must and does suffer. Enron and Lehman Bros. employees lose their jobs. Stock holders lose their investments. The entire nation suffers economically when legislators and regulators fail to oversee our nation's banks -- or when allow dirty deeds to go unpunished in the name of protecting profits.

The fact that the little guys at PSU didn't cause any of this isn't justification for protecting an institution that went awry.

Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

You've characterized my point correctly. Here's where we disagree. The benefit was to the program from a PR standpoint, but did nothing to effect on field performance, at least nothing that can be quantified. A player wasn't allowed to play who should've been ineligible, for example. You could try and make the argument that the team benefited from his coaching when he should've been suspended/fired/incarcerated, but that's shaky and doesn't really have much precedent that I can think of.

Again, I do think PSU deserves all that they're going to get, and the football team will have a lot of rough seas ahead due to the public backlash. I have no issue with that. I just don't think the NCAA needs to be involved.

Never get in a fight with a pig; you both get muddy, and the pig likes it...

Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

I don't know if they should suspend the football program or not, but what I do know is that they're going to have a REALLY difficult time recruiting for quite some time.

Bill O'Brien is going to have to work some real magic.

You would think that, but check out their recent recruiting rankings. I haven't seen it for a little while, but their incoming freshman class has been top ten (or maybe just really close to it). It's insane...they're pulling in a lot of four-star guys. I'm honestly shocked that they've been able to pull all the talent they have.

Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle

The president is still there, the board is still there. Not sure what you mean

Spanier was fired before Paterno was, so you're wrong there. The board is still there, but their only guilt in this is not having adequate controls in place to ensure they knew about these sort of issues. I think it's easily arguable there should be wholesale replacement of the BOD, I don't take a stance there. But punishing the football program doesn't really punish either of these groups much.

Originally Posted by TurtlesNBirds

Sandusky used the football program as a reward system for the victims. Part of the reason some of them didn't want to come forward was they were afraid of losing access to football games. Some even traveled with the team and stayed in hotels with the team on the road. A sexual assault took place in the locker room of the football team that two football coaches knew about. The head coach admits he could have done more when Sandusky was still bringing kids around the football facilities right up until his arrest. A decades worth of attacks could have been prevented if the head coach and those in the administration took proper action, instead of being more concerned with the image of the university.

Your last sentence is the only relevant one in relation to NCAA sanctions. I could offer you football tickets and rape you in the shower of the team. But I have nothing to do with the team. You can't sanction the team because I gave you tickets and got you into the team's showers (which a lot of people have access to) in order to keep you from coming forward about the assault. Sandusky using the program after his coaching tenure was complete has no bearing on this matter.

Originally Posted by festivus

That's not how the NCAA works, nor should it.

Completely understand that. I was simply making the point to RWT (or whoever's) post that said the NCAA should only punish the people involved in this. If the NCAA sanctions the team, they cannot hit those involved in this incident because all of them are gone from the university.

Originally Posted by festivus

The NCAA can and should punish programs as a deterrent, and that means punishing even if the principal ne'erdowells have moved on.

There are two questions, both of which you touch on:

1. Does the NCAA have any authority here, or, in other words, was this sufficiently connected to the athletics program at PSU?

2. If so, what's the appropriate penalty?

Like Ravor, I'm 100% certain that if the answer to question 1 is "yes," there will be a penalty, PSU. But, like yourself, I do not think there would be a "death penalty." If there is any discipline, I expect it would be the loss of a year, which would be a tremendous financial and programming loss for the university.

I'm not 100% certain that they'll sanction, but I think it's likely they will. Honestly, though, all of it is speculation. There's arguments which can be made for all levels from no penalty to death penalty, so I feel like now we just have to play a wait-and-see game.

Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

Originally Posted by psuasskicker

Your last sentence is the only relevant one in relation to NCAA sanctions. I could offer you football tickets and rape you in the shower of the team. But I have nothing to do with the team. You can't sanction the team because I gave you tickets and got you into the team's showers (which a lot of people have access to) in order to keep you from coming forward about the assault. Sandusky using the program after his coaching tenure was complete has no bearing on this matter.

The report lists a cause of this scandal as "a culture of reverence for the football program that is ingrained at all levels of the campus." Now it has come out that Paterno knew about Sandusky's molestation accusations back in 1998 and lied to a grand juty about it. So why was Sandusky given permission by Paterno and the AD to maintain an office at the football facility and still be allowed to bring children around the facility through 2011? Clearly Sandusky did have an association with the football program. The NCAA has used the term "lack of institutional control" in the past when dealing out penalties, while a pretty generic term it would certainly apply here.

If I run a publicly traded company and I conceal bad PR to keep the stock price high, I benefitted directly and fiscally from said concealment.

The Felonious Four concealed 14 years worth of the most heinous PR possible and fiscally benefitted from that cover up via continued contributions and support from donors / boosters.

I don't see a distinction and the more I think about it, the more I hope the NCAA goes ahead and tries to enforce a sanction even if there is a chance it gets overturned in federal court. It may end up in court, but can PSU afford the bad PR that would come from that defense? I don't think so.

WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.

Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

If I run a publicly traded company and I conceal bad PR to keep the stock price high, I benefitted directly and fiscally from said concealment.

The Felonious Four concealed 14 years worth of the most heinous PR possible and fiscally benefitted from that cover up via continued contributions and support from donors / boosters.

I don't see a distinction and the more I think about it, the more I hope the NCAA goes ahead and tries to enforce a sanction even if there is a chance it gets overturned in federal court. It may end up in court, but can PSU afford the bad PR that would come from that defense? I don't think so.

Yes, and you'd be prosecuted by the SEC/FBI. But they wouldn't force the company to cease operations (assuming it was still able to operate after you got done with your Enron activities.)

Never get in a fight with a pig; you both get muddy, and the pig likes it...

Yes, and you'd be prosecuted by the SEC/FBI. But they wouldn't force the company to cease operations (assuming it was still able to operate after you got done with your Enron activities.)

Very true, but I'm not an advocate for them to get the death penalty.

WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.

Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

If I run a publicly traded company and I conceal bad PR to keep the stock price high, I benefitted directly and fiscally from said concealment.

The Felonious Four concealed 14 years worth of the most heinous PR possible and fiscally benefitted from that cover up via continued contributions and support from donors / boosters.

I don't see a distinction and the more I think about it, the more I hope the NCAA goes ahead and tries to enforce a sanction even if there is a chance it gets overturned in federal court. It may end up in court, but can PSU afford the bad PR that would come from that defense? I don't think so.

It would be a non-issue if the university would sack up and suspend the football program for a year. It would give them some time to think about how to proceed, too.

Last edited by festivus; 07-13-2012 at 04:26 PM.

Festivus

His definitions and arguments were so clear in his own mind that he was unable to understand how any reasonable person could honestly differ with him.

Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

Originally Posted by psuasskicker

Spanier was fired before Paterno was, so you're wrong there. The board is still there, but their only guilt in this is not having adequate controls in place to ensure they knew about these sort of issues. I think it's easily arguable there should be wholesale replacement of the BOD, I don't take a stance there. But punishing the football program doesn't really punish either of these groups much.- C -

Spanier was fired as president but he is still a tenured professor at the university so no, I'm not wrong. I get that you want to protect PSU but they have not punished the people that were involved and that's my point.

I will give them credit for the fact that they hired Freeh in the first place to do the investigation, so it would appear they want to know all the facts. Lets see how they deal with them.

Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

I am just now reading this thread, and I want to say that the commentary has been very insightful and respectful...lots of good information and points being made (I think my position on the "death penalty" changed back and forth a couple of times).

Those that are saying that this should be limited to criminal prosecutions, or that those currently involved in the football program should not be punished for actions they did not commit, miss the point, respectively. The culture was what allowed the actions to go on for so long unreported. It caused police and district attorneys to lean towards no charges. It allowed the school's disciplinary official to be overruled.

Has that changed? Maybe with Paterno's passing, it has. Maybe not, if the on-going reaction at PSU is any indication.

B-More Ravor: Personally, I think the University should self-impose a 4- or 5-year hiatus for the football progam and release all of the present players from their scholarship.

That would be the most perfect action (among many other actions) coming out of this mess, imo. It would show a clear indication that the University was attempting to change the culture. I don't think it will happen, though.

Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

i found this article that talks about the holes in the report itself. i am not a penn state guy. i agree with you all that horrible and disgusting acts were covered up just to avoid bad publicity. so dont beat me up too bad. i just thought it was an interesting piece of objectivity http://tominpaine.blogspot.com/2012/....html?spref=fb