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Excellent music, Patrick! I keep practicing the Bach-Ziloti piece and it is nowhere near as smooth sounding as you make it.

I received a ZERO on GP's recordings...at least I heard the differences clearly. Let's see what happens on your recordings (well-done, by the way).

Bach-ZilotiTemp A EBVTiiiTemp B ET

DebussyTemp A ETTemp B EBVTiii

To muddy the waters even more, here is the first section of Chopin's Tristesse Etude 10 3, tuned as best I can in the two tunings in question - at least I know which is which this time. It is quite the amateur recording when compared to the most excellent ones posted previously.

Emmery, If your latest post was not so absurdly off in left field somewhere, it certainly would be laughable.

Who said anything about this being like a "Pepsi Challenge" or a "controlled scientific process"? If you have not realized it by now, which you obviously have not, this is a very, very simple listening thread about my enthusiasm, and now others, concerning a new temperament called EBVT III, which has evolved into a listening comparison between EBVT III and ET. Your attempts to degrade and derail this thread will not work, simply because there are smarter people in here than you think there are.

Have you noticed the amount of views so far, 41,076 since this post started, 40,500 is where the views started since Patrick posted his recordings yesterday. According to you, they are coming in here to listen to a faulty so called "scientific controlled process" and a failed "Pepsi Challenge". If they listened to you, they should stay away, since it's a flawed, meaningless, completely useless, full of puffery, questionable, the OP is unknown, therefore his credibility is in question, the recordings are manipulated to make one temperament sound better than the other, the tunings are not done fairly, etc etc etc thread. I don't think so. Please spare us your negative diatribes, and let the readers make up their own minds as to who is fooling whom.

How many times do I have to state that I am not a professional tuner. For your information, it takes me about 4 hours to tune my piano with an ETD, in both temperaments. You can pontificate your negativity until the cows come home.. but that is not going to change the fact that recordings don't mince words, you do. There is nothing in the least bit "sad" here in this thread, what is sad is your attempt to negate and deride this thread by insisting it's worthless and meaningless because it does not follow some protocol of a controlled scientific study. It's interesting how you equate this thread as a "challenge"....why does it have to be a challenge to you? This is not a challenge to anyone. Give me a break.

If you can so "easily tune either of the said temperaments", and put your own "shine" on it, then please do so....otherwise, your words are empty, and are a feeble attempt at best to discredit a temperament that obviously has a solid place in modern day piano tuning. Why don't you talk to Randy Potter, you do know who he is don't you, and ask him his opinion about EBVT III. He has heard it in person at my house, right after Bill finished tuning my piano, and was so impressed with it, he said, and I quote, "I want to tune my piano this way". He will be learning how to tune it from Bill in the upcoming PTG convention. I suppose that does not mean much to you, but it sure sends a positive signal to a lot of other people here on PW.

Now to concentrate on something meaningful and positive.

Patrick, thank you for hard work, your excellent post and recordings. What a great way to hear the 2 temperaments, sans my shaky unisons etc. Your tuning is fist rate, the unisons sound fantastic, and your playing is wonderful, and, the music is beautiful. It's a nice change to hear the 2 temperaments together played live.

Bravo, Patrick. Nice to see somebody with a bit of humility and sense defending the subject of this thread.

I don't see why people feel threatened by this temperament, and the fuss it is causing. I think people are just mistaking the weight of Bill's personality for something that actually threatens their livelihood. The EBVT isn't going to make ET obsolete, it's not going to put any of us out of a job. It's a nice temperament, a viable alternative to ET. It's not easier to tune - tuning is and never has been a matter of just putting the notes in the right place, so what does it matter whether it is a progressive set of 3rds or three different beat rates, or whatever.

People are just being dazzled by personality. Bloody yanks... can't separate the person from the issue. (sorry... I shouldn't be saying such things on an American message board! I'm sure Pat will know what I mean anyway, no offense to any of you yanks!)

With regards to the recordings, I know that the 1st Bach is EBVT. Mainly because it sounds like you enjoyed the performance a lot more, and I know you prefer the EBVT. It does sound more moving, and more emotive, which I could put down to the temperament. The recordings are both so good though, that both are very nice to listen to! I can't really tell the difference on the Debussy.

I am one of the lurkers here. I don't read everything in here. I don't believe that I have posted anything at all in here up until now. But, I am listening... After reading that post everyone is referring to here, I have too respond.

I know Bill personally. I have talked with him on the phone many times. They were not just short phone calls either. Some of them ran my phone battery dead. That's how long we talked together. I met with Bill at the convention here in Grand Rapids. I drank a few beers with him and I watched him tune. In fact, Bill gave my son a lesson in EBVT tuning. I believe, it was 1.5 hours. Bill even allowed me to sit in the class which is not usually allowed; provided I kept my trap shut, which I did!

Bill is not only a true gentleman, but, I can personally vouch that the tuning you hear (because I have heard it myself and have watched the videos of Bill online) on these pianos are in fact, a duplicate of what Bill himself can do with one exception. Bill of course, is a professional tuner/technician and therefore can do a better job tuning; of purifying the tuning and unison's. No offense to GP or to anyone else. Although, for being inexperienced, the tunings are not to offensive at all for the most part. They most certainly get the point across.

My personal feelings are that if any particular tuning is not for me, whether that be any type of historical tuning, EBVT or ET, it is not up to me to judge and to tell everyone else that MY way is the only way because my way is NOT the only way to achieve a great tuning. There are multiple ways to accomplish the same goal.

While I am basically an "ET" tuner and Bill knows this already, I refuse to jump in on this thread stating that ET is better or to bash someone else. Especially a friend. This accomplishes little. But, it would make me look pretty silly. Besides, I am not convinced that my way is the only way and never have been convinced of this.

Is ET better? Is ET right? Is EBVT right or better? Or, might it simply just be my personal preference? If so then, that is my or, your choice. My or, your personal preference. Whatever blows your hair back. Who cares? What does it matter? As I said, there are a variety of tunings. Along with these tunings comes a variety of tastes as well.

GP (and others too) I very much enjoy listening to the songs you post. Some of them are great songs!

I do not mean to be demeaning in any way of your tunings either. They are pretty good for a non pro! Please continue posting stuff. Don't let the negativity eliminate future postings from taking place here because even though many of us are none posters, we do find it interesting nonetheless.

I'll be the first to say that I found GP's tunings to be professional level, broadcast quality as I heard them before I ever met him or interacted with him in any way. Perfection has an infinite end. I have never achieved it and never will. At some point, I always have to stop and consider that this work is adequate for this occasion. No ET enthusiast can ever claim anything else because perfection of ET is ultimately unattainable. At some point, the further perfection of it simply does not matter any more.

The same can be said for the EBVT III, a different idea, not altogether very different from ET but still distinct enough to merit pursuit. Well Temperament characteristics and Equal Beating properties are quite significant. My experience has always been a very positive one when I tried the best I could under the circumstances to perfect the EBVT III model (as opposed to what the ET model would have been).

The following really belongs on the "What did you do today?" thread. I went south to Janesville, Wisconsin, about 45 miles away. It is a community that has been hit very hard by the recession. Last week, there was a feature article in the Madison "Isthmus" newspaper about how Janesville is "On The Brink" (a once thriving city, now in deep trouble with the closing of the local GM plant). Still, in spite of that, money has been found to hire me to tune a particular Kawai RX-5 grand 3 times within the last 5 months.

The piano has a humidity control system and money was paid to change the wicks and today, to buy more humidifier water treatment. I cleaned the piano today with my brand new Oreck hand held vacuum cleaner. No matter how many times I have blown the dust out of that piano and how new, clean and modern the facilities are at that high school, it is amazing how much dust billows out of it each time! Just think how much more accumulation there would be if one were to neglect cleaning each time the piano is tuned! What do YOU do as a technician? Do you expect someone else to clean the piano? If you do, you are only dreaming because it is YOUR job! The longer you put it off, the worse the condition will get.

What I saw today was truly amazing! The piano had been set up on stage with two microphones. The director told me that there would be 120 voices to sing, both on stage and in the aisles during the performance. There would be a Jazz orchestra in the pit. Drums and bass would also be on the main stage.

These people, only one month ago, hired me to tune the same piano for their favorite son local artist (who can be heard on my website) for a splendid catered dinner with white table cloths and fine dinner ware for a promotional event that featured the presence of Senator Herb Kohl, (a self made millionaire who began his career by sweeping floors) but who now owns a chain of department stores and the Milwaukee Bucks basketball team.

Today, they present the culmination of their semester activity. The director told me that many of the students could not afford to buy the $7 tee shirt that commemorates the event. Those students had to be subsidized. They found a way to celebrate, to show that excellence could shine in times of hardship. They found a way to pay a piano technician to contribute essential services. They believed in what I could do for them and the value it has.

Anyone could argue that what I could do and did do would have been equally valuable had I only tuned in ET. That, I would concede. What I do goes far beyond tuning theory. I do what makes music worth while. What I do gets people interested in piano music! It is not limited to tuning but the way I tune does seem to capture people's attention.

If it has captured your attention, I am happy for that and wish to further explore all possibilities!

Bravo, Patrick. Nice to see somebody with a bit of humility and sense defending the subject of this thread.

I don't see why people feel threatened by this temperament, and the fuss it is causing. I think people are just mistaking the weight of Bill's personality for something that actually threatens their livelihood. The EBVT isn't going to make ET obsolete, it's not going to put any of us out of a job. It's a nice temperament, a viable alternative to ET. It's not easier to tune - tuning is and never has been a matter of just putting the notes in the right place, so what does it matter whether it is a progressive set of 3rds or three different beat rates, or whatever.

People are just being dazzled by personality. Bloody yanks... can't separate the person from the issue. (sorry... I shouldn't be saying such things on an American message board! I'm sure Pat will know what I mean anyway, no offense to any of you yanks!)

Thanks Phil. I do know what you mean, there is indeed a cultural clash. What I love most about the country in question (the believe in an unique human being, in making a difference) make things messy when it comes to open forums. The line between what you believe in (ie what you say) and what you are is not easily drawn.

That said, I prefer this take on personality to the one I've encountered during my own childhood. Over here, people are simply too humble for their own good

Originally Posted By: Not a Mongoose

With regards to the recordings, I know that the 1st Bach is EBVT. Mainly because it sounds like you enjoyed the performance a lot more, and I know you prefer the EBVT. It does sound more moving, and more emotive, which I could put down to the temperament. The recordings are both so good though, that both are very nice to listen to! I can't really tell the difference on the Debussy.

This is most valuable feedback, Phil, and thanks for the compliments on the recordings the answers will be posted in a week or so.

I'll be the first to say that I found GP's tunings to be professional level, broadcast quality as I heard them before I ever met him or interacted with him in any way. Perfection has an infinite end. I have never achieved it and never will. At some point, I always have to stop and consider that this work is adequate for this occasion. No ET enthusiast can ever claim anything else because perfection of ET is ultimately unattainable. At some point, the further perfection of it simply does not matter any more.

Darn... that was going to be my 2nd post tonight, but you preceded me, Bill... Your words ring very true to me, both in aspects of GP's tunings and tuning perfection in general.

This 3rd post will be about the myth that EBVT III works great in common keys, but severely compromises remote keys.

In my A/B recordings earlier, the Bach piece is in B minor, and that could fit into the picture. What about Clair de Lune? If Db is a disaster for EBVT III, it should be evident which temperament is which.

Even in the Bach piece, the very last B major arpeggio (5 sharps) should ring extremely sour to the listener. Does it?

Field report: I played a Steinway D in an Ellington concert tonight. A lot of choir, and due to vocal range issues quite many of the arrangements where in remote flat keys (Ab-Db). My first solo was in Db (Morning Glory).

The piano was tuned in EBVT III on wednesday night, before the concert tour started (it ended here in this town). There was no objection to the tuning whatsoever - not from the conductor, not from the solo singer, not from the piano player (the last one not too surprising, as that would be me )

On the contrary, a lot of people commented on my piano playing as being very sensitive and that it was underlining the musical thoughts. How could I even begin to talk about what I got from the temperament, and why it makes a difference?

thank's for the creativity Haven't really thought it true yet, but as I'm quite familiar with ET via M I'll just throw out a suggestion:

Wouldn't you get even closer if you skip the final steps of the sequence (where you move G# and C to their equal-beating positions?) Those two pure intervals, F-C and G#-C#, are important to me in tuning EBVT.

Thanks for posting the scala diagrams, Kees. Is there a way to configure them further--a way to make them show the cent differences from just or ET, instead of showing the distance only with the lines? (Still learning my way around scala. I can always take it a certain distance, but somehow get lost.)

Wouldn't you get even closer if you skip the final steps of the sequence (where you move G# and C to their equal-beating positions?) Those two pure intervals, F-C and G#-C#, are important to me in tuning EBVT.

Good idea, but the 3C of the FC has to go somewhere and you end up further from EBVT3.But, if you start with FA at 6bps and follow your suggestion it is an improvement, see below.

to those who have been contributing - thank you for your input! It has all been highly interesting to me, and the whole process made me deepen my understanding of both the temperaments.

I will be back in a later post to dwell on my thoughts about this, both from the view of a piano tuner and a piano player. Still, let me at this point bring forth one of the obvious results of this test (as run here, and in the piano forum): It really crushes the myth about EBVT III working fine in close keys, but being quite useless in remote keys! EBVT III is a truly cromatic alternative to ET.

I would not know what a "conventional amount of stretch" would be. Nor do I know what the difference would be between equal temperament and any given interval in any given non-equal temperament without more information. I also cannot tell whether a temperament is tuned correctly or incorrectly without more than one chord. I cannot tell what any sort of effect is supposed to be without knowing whether whatever it is I am supposed to be listening to is in the instrument or in the recording, nor whether it is an intended effect or a flaw in the instrument or in the recording.

Last week the pianist at the show enjoyed playing the top notes of the piano so much that at one point he made like he wanted to play above C8. How often has that happened to you?

I would not know what a "conventional amount of stretch" would be. Nor do I know what the difference would be between equal temperament and any given interval in any given non-equal temperament without more information. I also cannot tell whether a temperament is tuned correctly or incorrectly without more than one chord. I cannot tell what any sort of effect is supposed to be without knowing whether whatever it is I am supposed to be listening to is in the instrument or in the recording, nor whether it is an intended effect or a flaw in the instrument or in the recording.

I guess you'll never get it then BDB.

Originally Posted By: BDB

Last week the pianist at the show enjoyed playing the top notes of the piano so much that at one point he made like he wanted to play above C8. How often has that happened to you?

Seems to me like you got it, Patrick. I am very much looking forward to meeting you in Las Vegas about a month from now. If you really want to take the tuning exam, I believe you are as ready as anyone could be to do so!

What I hear there is an absolutely ugly tuning, a temptative to an ET wich thave no tone, ans sound close, mufled, almost dead musiclaly speaking. I trace it to abad listening to the singing quality of the intervals while tuning, or a method for setting the pin that allow the piano to drift. whatever, it tones ugly..

Then a tuning with a nice opening of treble and other intervals, that automatically giove some aire and light in the tone.

To me it have not much to do with the justness, which is so so but with the partials relation that when mixing niçcely togethyer, add some sparkle.

In that sense=' the second tunings tone way better. it does not mean it is due to EBCT, unless the way the treble and bass are expended is considered part of the EBVT temperament.

But I dopnt want to argue.

I have no much inclination for those musicals in any case , I receibe enough thru the TV and you know where they come from...

Lets be it.

I have work

Best regads to all

_________________________
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialistI wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

In that sense=' the second tunings tone way better. it does not mean it is due to EBCT, unless the way the treble and bass are expended is considered part of the EBVT temperament.

No, of course it wouldn't have anything to do with EBVT... not as long as it sounds good, otherwise you would surely have blamed the temperament

Originally Posted By: Kamin

But I dopnt want to argue.

I have no much inclination for those musicals in any case , I receibe enough thru the TV and you know where they come from...

Just for the record, "Everything happens to me" (played in this example) is not from a musical, it's a jazz standard written by Matt Dennis for Frank Sinatra w/ the Tommy Dorsey Orchestra, 1941.

Lovely ballad, played by jazz artists all over the world (including Eric Reed), to this day and on. Much in the same way as 'the standard of standard tunes', Autumn Leaves ('Les feuilles mortes') - originating from France, made popular in the U.S.A. much due to Miles Davis' love for that song.