Sub-3:00 runners - what sort of base mileage are you running?

Just curious what sort of mileage the sub-3:00 crowd is running when you're not not in an active marathon cycle. And what's the mix like - how much easy/long/tempo/speedwork are you doing as part of the base mileage phase? I'm just trying to get an idea of what sort of build-up I'd need if I ever decide to make a sub-3 a goal. Thanks!

Just curious what sort of mileage the sub-3:00 crowd is running when you're not not in an active marathon cycle. And what's the mix like - how much easy/long/tempo/speedwork are you doing as part of the base mileage phase? I'm just trying to get an idea of what sort of build-up I'd need if I ever decide to make a sub-3 a goal. Thanks!

Kind of obvious question - why don't you go and check sub 3 thread? The very first page there contains a table with a few tabs, one of which lists weekly mileages quite a few runners for the thread are running weekly. Every Sunday people usually report their weeklies and some report even paces and describe workouts. All information you are asking for is there...

Just curious what sort of mileage the sub-3:00 crowd is running when you're not not in an active marathon cycle. And what's the mix like - how much easy/long/tempo/speedwork are you doing as part of the base mileage phase? I'm just trying to get an idea of what sort of build-up I'd need if I ever decide to make a sub-3 a goal. Thanks!

Kind of obvious question - why don't you go and check sub 3 thread? The very first page there contains a table with a few tabs, one of which lists weekly mileages quite a few runners for the thread are running weekly. Every Sunday people usually report their weeklies and some report even paces and describe workouts.

I did check that thread, but for some reason I just get an error message where the table should be. I'll double-check my browser settings - I must've missed something.

Just curious what sort of mileage the sub-3:00 crowd is running when you're not not in an active marathon cycle. And what's the mix like - how much easy/long/tempo/speedwork are you doing as part of the base mileage phase? I'm just trying to get an idea of what sort of build-up I'd need if I ever decide to make a sub-3 a goal. Thanks!

Kind of obvious question - why don't you go and check sub 3 thread? The very first page there contains a table with a few tabs, one of which lists weekly mileages quite a few runners for the thread are running weekly. Every Sunday people usually report their weeklies and some report even paces and describe workouts.

I did check that thread, but for some reason I just get an error message where the table should be. I'll double-check my browser settings - I must've missed something.

What device are you using? Phone, IPad, Laptop, Desktop, what operating system and browser (version?). Plus, again - you check every Sunday's messages back to the start of the year, you can also check 2013 sub 3 for the weekly mileages and workouts - that is as much info as you can get anywhere. Btw, the answer for your mileage question will be pretty vague (to say the least) - averaging anywhere from 25 to 95 miles per week .

Just curious what sort of mileage the sub-3:00 crowd is running when you're not not in an active marathon cycle. And what's the mix like - how much easy/long/tempo/speedwork are you doing as part of the base mileage phase? I'm just trying to get an idea of what sort of build-up I'd need if I ever decide to make a sub-3 a goal. Thanks!

Kind of obvious question - why don't you go and check sub 3 thread? The very first page there contains a table with a few tabs, one of which lists weekly mileages quite a few runners for the thread are running weekly. Every Sunday people usually report their weeklies and some report even paces and describe workouts.

I did check that thread, but for some reason I just get an error message where the table should be. I'll double-check my browser settings - I must've missed something.

What device are you using? Phone, IPad, Laptop, Desktop, what operating system and browser (version?). Plus, again - you check every Sunday's messages back to the start of the year, you can also check 2013 sub 3 for the weekly mileages and workouts - that is as much info as you can get anywhere. Btw, the answer for your mileage question will be pretty vague (to say the least) - averaging anywhere from 25 to 95 miles per week .

Got it figured out, thanks. The mileage figures in that thread are quite impressive!

Originally Posted by MichaelMc:

Since I'm not in that thread I'll just provide an answer:

My base weekly mileage year round is around 70mpw. Peak training mileage is not much higher 75-80mpw.

In Winter the mileage is 95% easy paced, in full training mode it is probably 85% easy / 15% hard.

I broke 3 on a much lighter routine, but improvement after that became significantly harder.

Thanks for responding. 70mpw is quite a commitment. How old were you when you broke 3:00?

I am not as well known as MichaelMc, that's why I still have to be a part of some thread , but I will also chime in - I was 47 when I broke sub 3 for the first time (2 years after I got an idea to complete a marathon and started to run). Since then I ran 6 consecutive sub 3 marathons in 1.5 years improving in each of them. Waiting for first "failure" to happen (which eventually will )

I am not as well known as MichaelMc, that's why I still have to be a part of some thread , but I will also chime in - I was 47 when I broke sub 3 for the first time (2 years after I got an idea to complete a marathon and started to run). Since then I ran 6 consecutive sub 3 marathons in 1.5 years improving in each of them. Waiting for first "failure" to happen (which eventually will )

THAT is impressive (especially the part about running your first at age 47, since I'm turning 45 later this year)! Did you run earlier in your life (high school, etc.)?

I was 45 too, must be the perfect age. Mine came on a base of 50 mpw before building into Pfitz 18/70 which lifted it to an average of 62 mpw over the 18 weeks prior to the race.The base mileage for sub 3 runners will vary as some more talented runners can achieve sub 3 on less mileage and lots of runners never achieve sub 3 no matter how many miles they run.

Since then I ran 6 consecutive sub 3 marathons in 1.5 years improving in each of them. Waiting for first "failure" to happen...

If such a failure were to occur, I for one, would cease to address you as "Your Bubkaness"

- rovatti

I am not sure why some call it Bubka-ing . At least it's not the intention. After reaching sub 3 time, I think any PR is a pretty good achievement. Not mention they all in a row. Here is the sequence of improvements:

1st sub 3: 2:58:58

2nd - 3:28

3rd - 1:32

4th - 0:45

5th - 0:11

6th - 1:06

Yes, I really was "stuck" at 3rd to 5th marathon within 2:53 time, but all the rest are pretty good improvements, imo. If I beat my PRs by a second each time it would be definitely Bubka-ing, but I think it's not the case .

One of the main reasons me doing that is that it's so much easier, especially mentally, just trying to run a little bit faster than my last race - I know I can run at least as fast as my last one plus I hope my latest training added some to make me a little bit faster. So far it worked despite different weather conditions and race elevations.

I am not as well known as MichaelMc, that's why I still have to be a part of some thread , but I will also chime in - I was 47 when I broke sub 3 for the first time (2 years after I got an idea to complete a marathon and started to run). Since then I ran 6 consecutive sub 3 marathons in 1.5 years improving in each of them. Waiting for first "failure" to happen (which eventually will )

THAT is impressive (especially the part about running your first at age 47, since I'm turning 45 later this year)! Did you run earlier in your life (high school, etc.)?

No, I have never ran in any of the institutions - neither in a middle or high school, nor in a college. Though I must to say that from age of 6-7 my passion was soccer and though I didn't play on a professional level, I think I spent almost every weekday of ages 7-18 playing soccer or training it. Then, mostly after college I became 100% sedentary which lasted until 44-45 with me getting to 183 lbs (158 now - will need to shave few more in a future).

Just curious what sort of mileage the sub-3:00 crowd is running when you're not not in an active marathon cycle. And what's the mix like - how much easy/long/tempo/speedwork are you doing as part of the base mileage phase? I'm just trying to get an idea of what sort of build-up I'd need if I ever decide to make a sub-3 a goal. Thanks!

Danger danger.

First things first: it depends. Each runner will come up with a different number.

Now, willing to know what sub3 marathoners are doing is fine, but assuming that doing the same will lead to the same results isn't. It's the same bogus idea of buying a training plan that promises X:XX finishing time. There's no such thing. On the other hand, there is a clear trend that faster runners tend to run more miles. So you will see lots of 80mpw miles in the sub3 thread for example. And a few in the 3:20 thread, and maybe some outliers in the other threads.

Also, assuming sub3 runners are the only ones that know how to do things properly is a weird concept. Or any other sub X:YZ runners to be honest. Proper training can be done at any level of the sport. The mix of long/tempo/speed should be fairly similar for someone running a given mileage, regardless of finishing times.

(Sorry if this wasn't what you implied with your post, it's just the way I understood it. )

I was 49 and 11+ months when I ran my first sub-3:00 (my 6th and most recent marathon), and my base mileage was in the 60s before two cycles that averaged in the 70s and peaked at 92 and 95. Having said that, I think it's also important to note the effects of long-term consistency in training. My training hasn't been interrupted by injury for the past 20+ months, and the training cycle for marathon #6 built off of the work done in the cycle for marathon #5, even though the latter didn't result in a PR (not all of us are as studly as calbears).

Regarding the training mix in the base phase before marathon #5, I didn't do anything faster than easy, as I was having trouble staying injury-free while increasing mileage AND incorporating speedwork.

First things first: it depends. Each runner will come up with a different number.

Now, willing to know what sub3 marathoners are doing is fine, but assuming that doing the same will lead to the same results isn't. It's the same bogus idea of buying a training plan that promises X:XX finishing time. There's no such thing. On the other hand, there is a clear trend that faster runners tend to run more miles. So you will see lots of 80mpw miles in the sub3 thread for example. And a few in the 3:20 thread, and maybe some outliers in the other threads.

Also, assuming sub3 runners are the only ones that know how to do things properly is a weird concept. Or any other sub X:YZ runners to be honest. Proper training can be done at any level of the sport. The mix of long/tempo/speed should be fairly similar for someone running a given mileage, regardless of finishing times.

(Sorry if this wasn't what you implied with your post, it's just the way I understood it. )

I get what you're trying to say here, but the fact is, you're not going to ask a 4:30 marathoner what it takes to go sub-3, you're gonna ask the folks who have gone sub-3. Of course everyone is different, but I bet if you look through each one of the marathon training threads, you'll notice that folks are training in a fairly similar fashion (for the goal they're pursuing). As you mentioned, most of the sub-3 guys are running fairly high mileage, save for a few outliers.

I did not get a sense that the OP was looking for a magic mileage number to get him to sub-3, but he has surely noticed that there is some association between weekly miles and marathon times. It's only a loose association because there are other important factors (age, gender, parents) that we cannot do much about. It's interesting to speculate about how things would be if the threads were based on age grades rather than times.

As for asking a 4:xx marathoner for training advice, let's not forget jim2, who was one of the most respected advice-givers on here.

As for asking a 4:xx marathoner for training advice, let's not forget jim2, who was one of the most respected advice-givers on here.

No doubt some well respected participants of this forum can definitely give a great advice, but when I started to think about sub 3 goal, I went straight to the sub 3 thread, plus there were few runners in other threads who achieved that goal, that's just a common sense, nothing else. Even if somebody from sub 4:30 could give a useful advice, I would probably not use the way they train, because it just would not make sense.

My base mileage sort of stayed around 28 miles for a number of years...I'd run 10, 10, and 12 on those three days. My peak was 12, 14, and 22 with speed work on the 14 mile day and many of those long runs done as progressive down to MP or a bit faster.

I'm sort of the whacky one with all my sub 3's between 45 and 49 years old done on 3 days a week running and peaking at 45 miles per weak. My average for a cycle was probably 40.

Originally Posted by rovatti47:

I can speak for Esined...

He never ran much sustained weekly mileage, but spent 2h a day at the gym on non-running days.

that pretty much describes me. 4 sub-3:00's after age 45 on 3 days a week. but less total mileage and the gym time was just an hour - and i did a lot of other activity, especially cyclng and flat-water kayaking

average weekly miles while training was around 30. and less when not focusing on an upcoming race

got my PR at 39 with a weekly average of 27 mpw for the 15 weeks before the race (not counting the last taper week) i was paddling 10 20 hours a week.

bottom line: there are many paths to the goal and there is no magic number of miles that have to be run to reach any time goal

Certainly - there is no magic number to reach your goal (sub 3 in this case, I think). But... Since I started participating in this forum in 2011, how many 40+ yo averaging 30 mpw sub 3 runners did I hear about? 3. That's right - 3. How many 40+ yo averaging 50 mpw and more who achieved sub 3 goal did I meet and hear about? Actually - have no idea - because there were too many of them.

It's been several decades since I ran sub-3:00 and even longer since my first. I was running 50-55 mpw when I first ran sub-3:00 in my mid-20s. My last sub-3:00 in my mid-30s I was probably running about 60-65 mpw. The Interval Trainings for Marathon Runners and Sore Muscles thread brought to mind that there are many ways to a sub-3:00 time. That 3 x (8 x 200m) workout mentioned there is not too far from some of the workouts I was running when I ran sub-3:00. Granted I was training for a broader race range than just the marathon, but high quality can compensate a lot for lack of high mileage and long runs of 18-20 miles or more.

jim - I am not sure the OP was either. Just guessed. What is this nepotism thing? Just because the guy's name is Jim it doesn't mean his advice are any good!

cbf - I partially disagree with the 'wouldn't make sense part'. the numbers (mileage/pace) might be off, but training guidelines should be fairly similar. In that sense, threads like this, where one asks advice from a specific group, can be dangerous. (wish I could find a better word to describe it, dangerous it is)

First things first: it depends. Each runner will come up with a different number.

Now, willing to know what sub3 marathoners are doing is fine, but assuming that doing the same will lead to the same results isn't. It's the same bogus idea of buying a training plan that promises X:XX finishing time. There's no such thing. On the other hand, there is a clear trend that faster runners tend to run more miles. So you will see lots of 80mpw miles in the sub3 thread for example. And a few in the 3:20 thread, and maybe some outliers in the other threads.

Also, assuming sub3 runners are the only ones that know how to do things properly is a weird concept. Or any other sub X:YZ runners to be honest. Proper training can be done at any level of the sport. The mix of long/tempo/speed should be fairly similar for someone running a given mileage, regardless of finishing times.

(Sorry if this wasn't what you implied with your post, it's just the way I understood it. )

I get what you're trying to say here, but the fact is, you're not going to ask a 4:30 marathoner what it takes to go sub-3, you're gonna ask the folks who have gone sub-3. Of course everyone is different, but I bet if you look through each one of the marathon training threads, you'll notice that folks are training in a fairly similar fashion (for the goal they're pursuing). As you mentioned, most of the sub-3 guys are running fairly high mileage, save for a few outliers.

I too get what you are trying to say.

But I think the problem is in the question and not in the answer. One should ask 'what does it take for me to improve?' instead of 'what does it take for me to break time x:yz?'.

I find the chart interesting, because a good number of the sub-3 runners apparently run fewer miles than I do. Not a huge surprise, since I have known for a while that more talented runners can achieve better times on relatively lower mileage. Still, my average mileage over the course of the year is lower than the average mileage figures on that chart. So I still need to step up my game, but I think it may be unlikely I will ever get to sub-3.

Thanks to all for responding, especially all the folks who mentioned running sub-3:00 at age 45+ - that's inspiring. It lets me know it's possible for a fair number of runners.

ThisIsNotSam - I get what you're saying about there being no "magic mileage". I've been around enough runners to know there's a huge variety of genetic ability. My own son ran a sub-2:00 half on ~10mpw while in middle school, and now crushes me at the 5K on about half the mileage. I'm just looking for some goals to focus on, which is why I started this thread.

In 2012, when I ran my first full (at the Richmond marathon), my goal was just to finish and maybe break 4:00. I got 3:56 and was pretty happy with that as a debut. In 2013 when I started seeing significant improvement at shorter distances, I decided to see if I could BQ, which I did in the fall of last year with a 3:19, again at Richmond. I'm signed up for Richmond again this year, and I'm looking for something to motivate me to actually train for it, vs. just running it on base miles. I've already done a full and a 50K this spring on a base of ~40mpw, so I know I can run around 3:30 or so without a marathon-specific cycle, but that probably wouldn't be that satisfying. I doubt I can get under 3:00 this year, but I thinking if I really commit to it as a goal, I could maybe do in 2015. I'm just trying to get a feel for what sort of commitment is involved.

But I think the problem is in the question and not in the answer. One should ask 'what does it take for me to improve?' instead of 'what does it take for me to break time x:yz?'.

My2c.

Now that I think about it some more, that's a really good point. We get so hung up on arbitrary numbers, sub-3, sub-whatever. Instead, we should be training as hard as our bodies will allow (and smartly) and then let our fitness dictate the goal/results.