Fair enough, I don't want to dereail the ASOIAF of thread but I defy you to find any protest or series of protests, held by white, black or other people, right-wing, left-wing or whatever, where there won't be a few assholes to let everyone else down.

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You miss my point, and fuck your faux high-minded "defiance". I don't give a shit because both sides are WRONG in this.

And, too late, you've already derailed the thread with this puerile political bullshit.

You got me. GRRM may still be able to come up with something that neatly fills all the gaps, but I do think he probably changed what he was intending there somewhere along the lines.

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I think it's pretty unfair to expect his entire gameplan not to have changed since 1996, so I'm not gonna pissed at him for changing gears slightly. I do hope we get an adequate explanation though as it struck me as very strange seeing Varys act like that upon my re-read.

Personally, I don't think there's a R'hllor or a Great Other nor any other god.

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I think it'll be left somewhat ambiguous, but I see the conflict of Ice and Fire that Melisandre sees as so relevant to the grand scheme of the series that it can't all be bullshit.

I think it'll be left somewhat ambiguous, but I see the conflict of Ice and Fire that Melisandre sees as so relevant to the grand scheme of the series that it can't all be bullshit.

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Well, it's clearly not ALL bullshit because we have seen quite a bit of both ice magic and fire magic in the series, so we know that certainly there is power in both. What I see as bullshit is Melisandre's assertion that fire is "good" and ice is "bad," and things will be all right once the good guys (R'hllor followers) beat the bad guys (Others). I think the endgame will be considerably more morally complex than that if the rest of the series has taught me anything.

If Jon truly is the Prince That Was Promised, I think the fact that he's equal parts Targaryen and Stark is a significant hint that one side is not morally superior to the other.

There has to be some explanation for resurrecting Dondarrion and Cat, for one thing, which at present only R'hllor offers.

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There's certainly fire magic that can bring people back to life, but I see no evidence that there's a sentient being who actually cares about the affairs of humans behind it.

And the conflict of fire and ice, well, it's kinda in the title!

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Though I think the title holds more than one meaning (as GRRM titles often do), I think A Clash of Kings heavily hints that the primary meaning is that the "song of ice and fire" is the song or story of a person who has elements of both, which Rhaegar believed at the time to be Aegon but is probably Jon Snow.

He isn't a Blackfyre. Blackfyre was a specific Targaryen bastard who was legitimized and given the family sword. His legitimate brother inherited but was seen as weak and allowed Dornish influence into his court. Blackfyre though of himself as the only deserving heir of his father and eventually started a rebellion with one of his other bastard brothers. They lost, their sons ran to the Free Cities, plotted a return to Westeros, started a mercenary army, etc. but eventually all of the recognized heirs to the Blackfyre bloodline died.

Which is to say: Jon isn't a Blackfyre in any way shape or form.

He is a proper Targaryen, the legitimate or legitimized son of Prince Rhaegar and Lyanna. (probably)

He isn't a Blackfyre. Blackfyre was a specific Targaryen bastard who was legitimized and given the family sword. His legitimate brother inherited but was seen as weak and allowed Dornish influence into his court. Blackfyre though of himself as the only deserving heir of his father and eventually started a rebellion with one of his other bastard brothers. They lost, their sons ran to the Free Cities, plotted a return to Westeros, started a mercenary army, etc. but eventually all of the recognized heirs to the Blackfyre bloodline died.

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On the other hand, there's a quite convincing theory that Aegon, or the Aegon we meet in ADwD, may be Blackfyre. It's noted that only the "male line" of the Blackfyres died when Barristan slew the one with the infant head on his neck. Illyrio had a Valyrian-looking wife and there's hints Aegon is Illyrio's son (the child clothes Tyrion finds, the fact that Illyrio gets, strangely to Tyrion, upset when he learns he won't be able to see Aegon off), none of which point to Blackfyre specifically, except in conjunction with a story told in A Feast for Crows about a black dragon sign that is thrown down the river and later comes back washed up falsely looking red. Not necessarily the way it'll go down, but it's an interesting possibility.

He is a proper Targaryen, the legitimate or legitimized son of Prince Rhaegar and Lyanna. (probably)

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I'd say legitimate. If he wasn't, then Hightower and the other two members of the Kingsguard would've been with Viserys. They make it quite clear to Ned that they know both Aerys and Rhaegar are dead (meaning if Rhaegar had just said, "Guard Lyanna," those orders would become moot as soon as he died and Viserys became king). The fact that they're still there, still doing their duty as they go out of their way to point out, heavily implies Jon is legitimate (and why the series stresses that Targs practice polygamy).

The series also shows that words like "Song" and "Dance" can refer to wars and battles as well. The "Dance with Dragons" wasn't about Dragons dancing, it was about a war between Targaryens.

So "A Song of Ice and Fire" could also mean "War of Ice and Fire", the battle between the White Walkers and Humans (or whoever represents fire) and Rhaegar's talk about the Song of Ice and Fire is just a red herring.

For it all to turn out to be a rather typical "Heroic Journey" storyline for Jon, in a series that's so good at subverting all this stuff would be kind of a lame ending.

Jon's story just hit critical mass with his last chapter. He is either dead and gone and was just part of the story to show us what was going on at the wall for these last 5 books until Stannis and Mel got there (unlikely). Or he will wake up from his 'ice-nap' as a very cranky messianic figure.

Most likely, he warged into Ghost or some other animal and Melisandre will use the "Breath of Life" thing Thoros could also do to revive his body. Since his soul wasn't in it when it was revived, he'll come back as 100% himself.

Yes, just as Beric Dondarrion was slowly changed every time he was brought back, as many of his injuries never fully healed. I got the impression that it was to the point that he didn't really want to live any longer.

Cat was dead for 3 days before being revived and Beric was reincarnated over and over again. Assuming that Mel does revive Jon, he won't have been 'dead' for as long, so presumably the loss of self will have been less in his case.

The theory goes that if Jon wargs into Ghost before he dies, and then wargs back into his body after its revived, he won't be damaged like Beric and Catelyn were by death.

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Good point. IIRC, he was asking Orell a lot of questions about warging when he was spending time with the Wildlings. He might have learned a few things, although definitely doesn't seem quite as practiced at it as Bran had become.

If Jon is the true Azor Ahai reborn (which I think Mel is starting to get that impression), it would stand to reason he would get preferential treatment from the author, as he will likely eventually become King of Westeros and, ergo, need to survive at all costs, including having a relatively easy time of it.