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My opinion: If you want to play solo, play a SINGLE player game. If you want to play with other people play a MULTIPLAYER game. Playing solo in a multiplayer game is an oxymoron.

Communal solo play in a persistent world is not the same as a single player game.

Different playstyle, different game experience.

Ok so you see other people running around, and can talk to them. Just put a messenger on the screen, then you have your chat box in a single player game. Not much difference.

Again I just think its contradictory to log into a multiplayer game to play by yourself. I guess I just dont understand whats the big alure is to just seeing other people and being able to talk, but not wanting to play with them. Something isnt right here. Its like playing call of duty online, but playing in a private match by yourself. It makes no sense. You log into online games to play with other people.

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A game can give us both the content that we want. You want a game that has only your content.

I've no problem with games being made that cater to the extremists. They already have been. Games like Darkfall. FFXI. EQ. DDO. What I do have a problem with is people like you who feel compelled to belittle everyone elses preferences and prattle on about how the genre is going down the toilet because not every AAA released game supports your own.

No, it can't. It can cater to you, or it can cater to me. There is no middleground.

[mod edit]

I don't have problem because not every AAA game supports my own preferences. I have a problem because no AAA game supports them (except the ones from years ago).

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Originally posted by Archemorous

When alot of people choose a certain gamestyle, it is true that they indirectly move the genre in a specific way, and developers try to follow it, but to blame the people that choose whats fun for them for your lack of fun is ridiculous. Blame developers for not making enough niche games, but dont blame the players for choosing how to spend their time.

Agreed here.

Blame the developer for designing down the middle. When a majority of players choose to follow one playstyle in a game (be it solo or group) the dev DO NOT have to shift focus to that extreme. They could still attempt to balance out the share of the content because there will always be people who want/love the other playstyle. Sadly most devs just dont bother and will just follow the majority trend.

There are 3 types of people in the world.1.) Those who make things happen2.) Those who watch things happen3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"

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Ok so you see other people running around, and can talk to them. Just put a messenger on the screen, then you have your chat box in a single player game. Not much difference.

Again I just think its contradictory to log into a multiplayer game to play by yourself. I guess I just dont understand whats the big alure is to just seeing other people and being able to talk, but not wanting to play with them. Something isnt right here. Its like playing call of duty online, but playing in a private match by yourself. It makes no sense. You log into online games to play with other people.

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Ok so you see other people running around, and can talk to them. Just put a messenger on the screen, then you have your chat box in a single player game. Not much difference.

Again I just think its contradictory to log into a multiplayer game to play by yourself. I guess I just dont understand whats the big alure is to just seeing other people and being able to talk, but not wanting to play with them. Something isnt right here. Its like playing call of duty online, but playing in a private match by yourself. It makes no sense. You log into online games to play with other people.

They get enjoyment just from people being there with them. Why that is so important to them I don't know, but that's what I've gathered from reading the comments so far.

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So now you're having a white knight syndrome as well? Thou are the holy one and the bad extremists want to do bad things for everyone.

All both groups of extremists need is one game that caters to them. From where you figured out that we're trying to take over the world, I don't know.

How difficult is this to understand?

A game can give us both the content that we want.
You want a game that has only your content.

I've no problem with games being made that cater to the extremists. They already have been. Games like Darkfall. FFXI. EQ. DDO. What I do have a problem with is people like you who feel compelled to belittle everyone elses preferences and prattle on about how the genre is going down the toilet because not every AAA released game supports your own.

this isnt my fight but i am going to put in my 2 cents here. I want you to name AAA games post wow thats made a game for groupers. Now name games post wow that was made for solo'ers.

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My opinion: If you want to play solo, play a SINGLE player game. If you want to play with other people play a MULTIPLAYER game. Playing solo in a multiplayer game is an oxymoron.

Communal solo play in a persistent world is not the same as a single player game.

Different playstyle, different game experience.

Ok so you see other people running around, and can talk to them. Just put a messenger on the screen, then you have your chat box in a single player game. Not much difference.

Again I just think its contradictory to log into a multiplayer game to play by yourself. I guess I just dont understand whats the big alure is to just seeing other people and being able to talk, but not wanting to play with them. Something isnt right here. Its like playing call of duty online, but playing in a private match by yourself. It makes no sense. You log into online games to play with other people.

It is not called a massivley multiplayer online group only roleplaying game. It has people in it, you can play around them, compete against them, pvp gank em, whatever you choose. just because it has a lot of ppl online does not mean by default you need to team with them. I personally like to duo (me and my wife), but usually don't like teaming because most people are asshats or just dumb. I team sometimes, but I should not have to team just because I'm in an mmo.

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No, it can't. It can cater to you, or it can cater to me. There is no middleground.

Have I belittled your preferences? Again with that holier than thou attitude.. getting annoying.

I don't have problem because not every AAA game supports my own preferences. I have a problem because no AAA game supports them (except the ones from years ago).

Deal with it.

Of course there's a middleground. If you like grouping and I like soloing then a game with both types of content obviously caters to both of us. The problem with extremists is that they're not happy with just being catered to .. they require that all other playstyles are excluded.

AAA games cost millions of dollers. Dozens of millions of dollars. In some cases, upwards of a hundred million dollars. Now you tell me, you're an investor. Do you risk that amount of money on a minority of vocal forum trolls who can't even agree on what day of the week it is?

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The MMO genre is in the toliet because unlike the past where it took MMO's many months to a year to peak in population then hold steady to a slow decline after awhile. MMO's now are peaked in the first month of launch and sharply decline thereafter. Why is this because these recent mmo's are nothing but a single player online game. There played just like that too. People fly through the conent and get it done in a couple months then move on.

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Due to time constraints I usually solo, however the one perspective in this debate that I think is the root cause of the friction is the subset of solo-players who think that there should be no rewards or content that group-play can achieve or access that solo-play can't achieve.

And even though I'm primarily a solo-er, I think that idea is ridiculous.

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this isnt my fight but i am going to put in my 2 cents here. I want you to name AAA games post wow thats made a game for groupers. Now name games post wow that was made for solo'ers.

AAA games post WoW that have zero solo content: DDO. They soon changed that.
AAA games post WoW that have zero group content: None.

AAA games have always catered to both playstyles by including solo and group content. AoC was the epitome of this philosophy, every zone had a solo instance and group instance.

I always wondered why the groupers don't play it. It's AAA. It's a good game (better now than at launch) and you can group for the entirety of the game in the Epic zone instances without being forced to ever solo. So you tell me; why aren't you all playing AoC?

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It is not that complicated Hynamen not everyone who plays mmos wants to group or be forced to wait for groups all day. Do you seriously want people to group even when they are collecting crafting materials? You can't have a game where you are solo from time you start to the very end and for any reason I can think of you can not have a game where you are either in a group or sitting on your arse waiting for one. Nothing about this has anything to do with a superiority complex .

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Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Deal with it.

Of course there's a middleground. If you like grouping and I like soloing then a game with both types of content obviously caters to both of us. The problem with extremists is that they're not happy with just being catered to .. they require that all other playstyles are excluded.

AAA games cost millions of dollers. Dozens of millions of dollars. In some cases, upwards of a hundred million dollars. Now you tell me, you're an investor. Do you risk that amount of money on a minority of vocal forum trolls who can't even agree on what day of the week it is?

Of course there isn't a middleground. If you look at the issue like someone just out of kindergarten of course the answer seems to be as simple as that.

The problem with non-extremists is that they live in an imaginary world where all other playstyles aren't exluded from their game. The reality, though, is much as you described.Catering to you means other playstyles are excluded.

I would take the risk, since it looks like doing it the safe way isn't working any better. Or I would make the niche mainstream- the current players of WoW didn't just come from other MMO's, they're a whole new mass of players- and there are more of them waiting to be lured in, with that particular playstyle.

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Ok so you see other people running around, and can talk to them. Just put a messenger on the screen, then you have your chat box in a single player game. Not much difference.

Again I just think its contradictory to log into a multiplayer game to play by yourself. I guess I just dont understand whats the big alure is to just seeing other people and being able to talk, but not wanting to play with them. Something isnt right here. Its like playing call of duty online, but playing in a private match by yourself. It makes no sense. You log into online games to play with other people.

Grouping up to grind mobs is not the only form of player interaction.

PvP. Economy. Politics. Socialisation. RP. Grouping. Raiding.

Grouping, raiding, and pvp is not solo play You may not be arguing this but a LOT of the pro-solo people will argue that solo'ers shouldnt have to group/raid for equal gear.

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AAA games post WoW that have zero solo content: DDO. They soon changed that.
AAA games post WoW that have zero group content: None.

AAA games have always catered to both playstyles by including solo and group content. AoC was the epitome of this philosophy, every zone had a solo instance and group instance.

I always wondered why the groupers don't play it. It's AAA. It's a good game (better now than at launch) and you can group for the entirety of the game in the Epic zone instances without being forced to ever solo. So you tell me; why aren't you all playing AoC?

So you don't even have the playstyle of extremists figured out do you? Assuming things doesn't really work in the long run, especially when the argument requires you to know what you're talking about.

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AAA games post WoW that have zero solo content: DDO. They soon changed that.
AAA games post WoW that have zero group content: None.

AAA games have always catered to both playstyles by including solo and group content. AoC was the epitome of this philosophy, every zone had a solo instance and group instance.

I always wondered why the groupers don't play it. It's AAA. It's a good game (better now than at launch) and you can group for the entirety of the game in the Epic zone instances without being forced to ever solo. So you tell me; why aren't you all playing AoC?

So you don't even have the playstyle of extremists figured out do you? Assuming things doesn't really work in the long run, especially when the argument requires you to know what you're talking about.

Hint: neither group of extremists want "zero" of anything.

then why are you saying that if a game allows people to solo, they will solo, automatically gimping your ability to group?

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this isnt my fight but i am going to put in my 2 cents here. I want you to name AAA games post wow thats made a game for groupers. Now name games post wow that was made for solo'ers.

AAA games post WoW that have zero solo content: DDO. They soon changed that.
AAA games post WoW that have zero group content: None.

AAA games have always catered to both playstyles by including solo and group content. AoC was the epitome of this philosophy, every zone had a solo instance and group instance.

I always wondered why the groupers don't play it. It's AAA. It's a good game (better now than at launch) and you can group for the entirety of the game in the Epic zone instances without being forced to ever solo. So you tell me; why aren't you all playing AoC?

I played AoC at launch. technical problems aside. No one grouped in that game. unless they needed something and even then soloing was easier thus no one wanted to group for the harder conent because the rewards were not great enough to that of what you could solo (thats why you cant have both in a game). I consider AoC more of a solo game. I solo'ed 80%. Its extremly hard to group when solo'ing is such a viable option