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$1,200 for a financial plan in New York is a stab in the dark number. You can visit six different fee only planners - even hourly planners - and the range will be from $1,200 to $12,000. Your situation and the advisors expertise should determine how expensive it will be. Slightly misleading of Tara to pin a number on it.

Dave,

Inaccurate? She wrote according to you $1200, which is at the low end of your range. What is inaccurate? Might be incomplete.

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You are a valuable contributor to this forum. Your fees are too expensive for most of us DIYers here but just the same, you are mistaken to think I am hostile towards you personally or that continuing this dialog is too time-consuming for your business.

Our public dialog might be the only teacher and financial adviser dialog in the entire history of 403b plans that is 100% transparent, because out here in California ANY discussion about 403(b) plans with public k-12 school districts absolutely does not exist publically!!! Like it or not continuing this dialog IS your business. I remember an old truism, be careful what you want because you might get it. Do you understand that you are a rarity because you are respected by Dan, Scotty and others here?

Most of us here are on to the industry's game of how your profession makes money. That is your business to continue the dialog so that this conversation plays out so that all parties are satisfied. It may take time to work out, but its been 55 years of highly successful sales of TSAs in public schools and so changing that dialog will never end unless we talk. And when we do talk, it will take time. Our advocacy started in the mid-1990s and we made sporadic progress, but total reform is years away, probably another generation of educators will be abused and ex ploided.

Dave, I know you know that the problem is not with me, or the rest of the frequent posters here, it's with the teachers' unions, districts, and the education profession with the massively isolating mentality. You know how our profession thinks. Educators are a highly diversified group of professionals from all ethnic and racial groups, but when it comes to saving in a 403(b) or 457(b) for retirement, according to statistics, 70% of all k-12 public educators, the thinking does not come to fruition because we have a pension. My colleagues pretty much think as one--fear of the market by believing their 403(b) annuity sales person over everybody else.

I am positive you have already read Scotty D's excellent book, The Wild West: Providing Fiduciary Advice to Public School Employees. Just the same I included here for other FAs to consider reading. Mr. or Ms. professional FA, you can have a business within the constraints of this highly secretive profession. Scott has lived it. It's written for professionals like yourself who want to offer fiduciary FA to our profession, and that in itself will reform this terrible current 403(b) system. Here is my review on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R2UDD1VFPP1JA2/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B01AGRT4SA

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Tara quoted $1,200 for a financial plan in New York. I'm in the suburbs of Chicago and my retirement plans alone start at $2,000. It would be even more in New York. I research financial planners to understand trends in the industry as I'm a columnist in a trade magazine read by 200,000 advisors, so her numbers are low given by the data I've gathered.

Anyway.... I appreciate the kind words. With your comment on myself being too expensive - it depends on what you value, as value is subjective. However, I've found that many in the K-12 space don't value the services I provide even at a lower price point. For that reason, my business pivoted away from K-12 last summer. Given a rebrand, my business is now thriving. I hold no ill will to the K-12 profession but understand my services might not be top of mind to them as it might be for someone in a different profession.

Given continuing the dialogue - there's only so many hours in a day. As I now focus on building a business that meets my personal goals and educating advisors on how to do the same, my input here will be limited. Finance for Teachers (my blog for educators) is still active, but is no longer being updated with fresh content. Keep fighting the good fight.

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So Tara's $1200 quote would not get people inside any Fee only adviser. Your correct cost of Fee Only is pretty expensive. I have no ill will towards the fiduciary standard expense, but there is only so much return to pay for it, including ordinary taxes, keeping pace with inflation, and other investment costs. The stock market only returns 9-10% over long periods of time.

Back to K-12 services. Have you read Scotty's book? Is your message changed since pivoting away from teachers?

I agree if you are trying to work through the unions or the districts, they will blindside your efforts on all fronts. I have been accused of self-interests from union officers who knew me! When it comes to discussing money or investments, my profession exhibits some of the strangest reactions on the planet.

But if you can somehow, and somewhere reach the teachers, you will find that they are begging for help. For example, I asked my local fee-only FA to give a 50-minute presentation 4 years ago in front of about 50 of my LAUSD colleagues, and he immediately got 6 clients, and I believe that number has grown. That's just ONE presentation.

But the culture here in California is different. I think teachers are screaming for help, but they don't know where to turn, and who to ask. Even after a workshop or two, so many are lost afterward as there are no follow ups.

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Me again. I am stumped and I don't blame you for not continuing our discussion.Your experience is noteworthy. Dan started this thread two years ago and he stopped too. You guys have a business to run. I don't. Here is the situation. If you cannot run a fiduciary business with k-12, I wonder how Scotty can do it. He wrote an excellent book on how to do it. Because TIAA has also backed out of the k12 market. And VOYA our new 457b TPA does not take their job of enrolling people in the 457(b) seriously, despite some on our advisory committee calling them on this to their faces. Some of us are extremely angry at VOYA. They are not prepared and have demonstrated very little commitment to LAUSD, the 2nd largest district in the country with a supportive committee, and probably the most knowledgeable committee in the country. Some committee members have done a lot of work to get them in front of teachers when it is their job to do this! I am just speculating but they are not making a lot of money with a .25% fee. Its always back to costs, isn't it?

I think until the few of us advocates here across the country can somehow, someway expose the powerful teacher's unions from their sleep, reform is years away. I don't know what else to say. Even many of the good posters here just want to talk about asset allocation, low costs and respond to some good investing articles found on the web. That's all great, but it's not going to help reform the system. Its great for us intellectually, but not for those new teachers who are still getting sold fixed annuities, or for older teachers who have tens of thousands in an annuity and their agent is changing one annuity for another just to get a commission. These actions are so unethical and wrong, and yet, another generation of teachers will be ex ploided.

The biggest resistance is SILENCE. And I don't blame you for withdrawing from K12 because teachers like their unions, and have pension plans, plus teachers stock market fear ex ploited by highly paid insurance agents trained to do that over and over again for decades with great success. What is equally puzzling, the savvy teacher investors know more than me, and very smart and well aware there is a problem, but they keep quiet too. Still my take on this situation is only from the absolute SILENCE from both the unions and the savvy teacher investors. When people in my professional rarely discuss the 403b and the annuity ripoff despite all of the news reports for decades, it is very difficult to assess the situation. SILENCE is powerful and impossible to work with.

I think the so-called 403b reform movement is stalled. Piecemeal help from the few teachers who come here to help change their districts and unions is great, but we have been doing that here since 2001. It's just not enough. I thought that the 403b series in the NY Times article last fall might be a game changer. I have said it here before and I will say it again, it didn't move the needle one iota. Tara and many people who post here participated for months to get people to talk, it was tough. Teachers are afraid of not only the stock market but afraid of talking to the press too, and standing up to their unions or their districts to do better with the 403b. There is resistance everywhere.

Its back to the drawing table, and it's just another challenge. Or like EdLaFave said that I may be getting too old and ole fashion cause I still like TIAA. :- ). Heck personally, I have been waiting for somebody like an EdLaFave to finish the job. I am not the right person but I just do what I can with my limitations. My advantage is persistence. I will never give up, but the movement needs a reassessment and fresh ideas. What we are doing now is not enough.

Just trying to bring some realism, because good things take time. I just never thought that after 25 years, we have not reformed the 403b system successfully. And it's because of the powerful teachers' unions. We made some movement. And I will keep pressing with my amateurish activism.

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I don't yet understand everything I'm reading in this thread, but I'm taking notes for later research. Thank you to all who are posting and explaining positions and points of view. These conversations are helping me identify my gap areas!

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You're welcome. The point of this long discussion is to educate yourself enough that you will not need to hire an expensive financial adviser. The world is changing, and there are more and more people doing this without help. In the meantime, use somebody like Dave for a couple of years, pay his fee, and learn from him.

The millennials know they cannot trust either the stock market or the brokers and other financial professionals. They know that the baby boomers will benefit more from SS and pensions. Millenials also know that there is a good possibility that SS and pensions will be a thing of the past in 30-40 years.

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For baby Boomer advisers who think you can charge an (Assets Under Management) AUM and get away with it because of the Department of Labor fiduciary standards reform, think again about your business plan.

The millennial advisers (ages 25-35) don't charge AUM and they already know their millennial clients don't want to pay AUM. According to this article, Millennials will pay a retainer, but NO AUMs, and of course, no excessive trading and no commissioned based products.

The article goes on to warn older advisers that you need to seriously think about this because Millienal advisers are already good at internet start ups and so there is no reason why they cannot have a great business plan conducted from the comfort of their home, so their business's over head is low. Skype and Zoom.com work justs a well as face-to-face. My life coach uses Zoom.com, so I could talk to her in the comfort of my house. My niece who is a state certified and licensed therapist also uses Zoom.com for her sessions with clients, and she is very successful with two offices, one in San Fransisco, and the other in Oakland.

This is the future advisers, and the future is now.

Excerpt:These young advisors are providing what might be called financial consulting for millennial clients for a monthly fee — on average, about $215 a month. And they are attracting young clients in boatloads.

If you’re a baby-boom-aged advisor or even one of my fellow Generation Xers, you’re undoubtedly thinking: “How cute, but this has nothing to do with me or my business.” Wrong-O! In fact, this column is written especially for you because what these younger advisors are doing has everything to do with your business and its future.

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Finally (!) a directory of fiduciary advisors for the 403(b) and 457(b) audience. 403(b)wise launches the 403(b)wise Fiduciary Advisory Directory

Public 403(b) plans are notorious for expensive 403(b) products pushed by non-fiduciary sales agents. “Teachers, professors, nurses, and those who work at educational institutions, and non-profits don’t know who to trust when it comes to financial advice,” said Dan Otter, a teacher, and founder of 403(b)wise.com, a website that provides news, information, and advocates for better 403(b) plans. “It’s long been my goal to provide a resource of fiduciary advisors who understand the 403(b) and 457(b) plans.”

The directory launched March 1, 2018 with eight CFPs®. In addition to being a CFP®, each has agreed to sign the 403(b)wise Fiduciary Pledge. Individuals who have been authorized to use the CFP® certification have met rigorous professional standards and have agreed to adhere to the principles of integrity, objectivity, competence, fairness, confidentiality, professionalism and diligence when dealing with clients.

The minimum designation for inclusion in the directory is a CFP®. Currently 403(b)wise is not accepting applications from Registered Representatives or those licensed to sell insurance. The directory will will only feature fee-only, fiduciary financial advisors. For more information on applying to the 403(b)wise Fiduciary Advisory Directory

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Finally (!) a directory of fiduciary advisors for the 403(b) and 457(b) audience. 403(b)wise launches the 403(b)wise Fiduciary Advisory Directory

Public 403(b) plans are notorious for expensive 403(b) products pushed by non-fiduciary sales agents. “Teachers, professors, nurses, and those who work at educational institutions, and non-profits don’t know who to trust when it comes to financial advice,” said Dan Otter, a teacher, and founder of 403(b)wise.com, a website that provides news, information, and advocates for better 403(b) plans. “It’s long been my goal to provide a resource of fiduciary advisors who understand the 403(b) and 457(b) plans.”

The directory launched March 1, 2018 with eight CFPs®. In addition to being a CFP®, each has agreed to sign the 403(b)wise Fiduciary Pledge. Individuals who have been authorized to use the CFP® certification have met rigorous professional standards and have agreed to adhere to the principles of integrity, objectivity, competence, fairness, confidentiality, professionalism and diligence when dealing with clients.

The minimum designation for inclusion in the directory is a CFP®. Currently 403(b)wise is not accepting applications from Registered Representatives or those licensed to sell insurance. The directory will will only feature fee-only, fiduciary financial advisors. For more information on applying to the 403(b)wise Fiduciary Advisory Directory

Thanks Dan,

I am happy you brought this service back online. It is needed badly. Our Los Angeles Teachers have nowhere to turn after coming to one of our financial literacy workshops.

I have something to say about this because I have had a few friends and blog readers who have hired a "Fee only" financial adviser and the results are mixed, as I have reported earlier in this post. A couple of friends are very happy, and others are not.

So the devil will be in the details and what exactly does the client want. I know a fiduciary financial adviser who is my fiduciary for my trust. As I reported earlier in this lengthy post, I referred a couple of friends to him and they both rejected him because he charges too much assets under management (AUM). One friend said that .75% was too high. I agree. This particular friend only wanted his portfolio looked at and pay by the hour, but not have his portfolio managed (FYI, this adviser is not my financial adviser. I only hired him to take over my finances when I become too incapacitated to manage my portfolio).

Of course, I agree that the AUM should be charged when the client wants the adviser to "do everything," managing the portfolio with rebalancing, setting up a low cost indexed, fully diversified portfolio and cash flow, tax harvesting, and taking distributions in the most tax-efficient way. Yeah, that would take a lot of work and time for the adviser to do this for each client. Even then, I think charging up to 1.00% AUM, AND the hourly fee is too much. There is only so much performance that the stock and bond market returns over time, and charging that much defeats the purpose of investing, IMHO (and the impact of inflation, cost of individual investments even indexes charge a fee, it is tiny, but it is still a fee, and then those TAXES on capital gains, and ordinary income taxes on tax-deferred money, bonds, and dividends).

I think all of us would be very interested in a story about one of our colleagues who hires one of these advisers! Then we will have some evidence about how this business model is actually carried out with real people in practice! I wrote up one story on my blog that was viewed the most popular because of a large number of views and responses. While this story is a few years old, it is rare because one of my readers had the enormous courage to talk about his experience: http://latebloomerwealth.com/did-garrett-planning-network-pass-the-smell-test/ (FYI, the adviser in this story is no longer listed in the Garrett Planning Network).

The key will be how much AUM will they charge. Both Garrett Planning Network and National Association of Personal Financial advisers announces that they are "FEE ONLY". Fee-only used to mean that they only charge by the hour but now it has taken on a more expansive meaning.

Readers, if you hire one of these advisers, please report to us how it went.

Have a great weekend Dan, and thanks again for offering this important service.

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Rick Ferri, author of several books on indexing investing, and a Boglehead says this about Assets Under Management (AUM), the most frequent and popular business model used by financial advisers. Buyer beware of how much AUM they charge: