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I like your way of thinking, good sir! But what about catgirls? They're with the innocent ones?

They are not affiliated with any religion. Unless you count Darwinism of course, they are an offshoot evolution of human females, who with their lack of physical endowment grew extra-moe traits to attract human males.

Hence the reason why many catgirls are flat-chested or lolis.

Spoiler for Quote of the day:

The difference between a Mormon and a Moron is that the former runs a hospital, treats all who entered humanely and marries all his nurses because he loves them all, and the latter uses the excuse of polygamy to satisfy his lust, and his ability to leech money out of everyone including the sick.

It doesn't matter whatever your religion commands you to do; after all, we are all humans to believe in one. So shouldn't we behave as such?

__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.

Frankly, while I can understand and wholeheartedly approve the quest for truth, I don't see the point of the quest for certainty. I see picking the latter over the former as akin to doing drugs as a substitute for happiness.

Who said anything about the quest for truth?

The quest for certainty is expressed through our innate need for something to believe in. We all share this. It's part of the human condition. A need for meaning, a desire for life to have value. To be human is to be aware of the concept of value. To be bereft of this awareness is to be something inhuman.

I said nothing about the importance of this awareness. I merely stated that it's there and that it's folly to deny that it exists within each and every one of us. I believe that, for many of us, the denial or ignorance is so strong that it would take a lot of living just to overcome the mental block, to recognise that the awareness exists.

To be happy; to laugh; to whoop with joy — to do any of these is to accept that you've achieved or experienced something you value, something you believe in. You may not have articulated that belief in so many words, but it's there. For some, such belief leads ultimately to God, or some other form of enlightenment. For others, it leads to other, more secular but no less spiritual, state of mind.

I make no judgment on these sets of values. I merely acknowledge that they exist, and point out the foolishness of those who would preach that only religion will lead to ignorance. As it turns out, religion can claim no monopoly over that distinction — humans are pretty capable of deluding themselves without the help of God.

The great joke is that all values are mental constructs. They aren't physical objects that exist independently from the minds of human beings. Without us to observe the beauty of a vase, that object would just be a vase or, rather, a lump of clay.

Yet we continue to seek such values, whether consciously or unconsciously. Yin and yang. There will always be that little bit of messiness in the order we seek to impose. It takes faith to accept that what order we find, whatever comforting certainty we can grasp, is worth the messiness — and uneasy doubt — that it inevitably brings along.

Men of faith learn to laugh, in good humour, at the necessary futility of their task. Men without faith merely succumb to debilitating despair.

42.

Spoiler for extract from Mardock Scramble: The Second Combustion:

"Of course they're contrived — what other sort of value system is there? Or are you saying that there's a physical, tangible object called a 'value' lying around somewhere, just waiting to be discovered so that everyone can see what truth is?"

"Does life have any value?"

"That question is folly — you have it all upside down. Value is not something that just exists. It's a concept, a construct. And when people neglect their duty to construct their own valuation of life, they revert back to being no more than beasts. After all, what is society if not a peculiarly human invention that allows people to conceptualise and propagate their own belief systems?

"It's been observed on numerous occasions that the act of killing other members of one's species is not limited to human beings — it's a trait observable in all animals. The reason that animals are furnished with the ability to kill is so that they can kill. For animals, the impetus to kill is always there, constantly at the ready. That's their system of self-perpetuation — their system is pure and simple, just like human society."

"Are you calling me an animal?"

"All human beings are animals, of course. But you, having lost your sense of values, are trying to fill that gaping hole with a particular set of instincts — that's why you're an animal. When animals cannibalise each other or persecute outsiders or create outcasts or commit suicide, or patricide, or infanticide, or fratricide — all these apparently abnormal acts are nothing more than a regression to a base animal instinct.

"Animals learn from their environment and their circumstances and pass on their learnt behaviours to their children, who inherit what they can from their parents. But when environments and circumstances change, so that they appear to contradict what they have learnt, well, that's when learning goes out the window, and animal instinct kicks in to produce those behaviours that we call 'abnormal'...

"Do you think that human beings are the only animals to wage war? Think again. It's actually fair to say that pretty much any animal with a herd instinct will wage war one way or another. From insects to herbivores, all living creatures wage war… Human beings are a long way from escaping their animal instincts. In which case, what exactly is the difference between man and animal? The creation of values.

"On the one hand, animals have all sorts of reasons — besides simple predation — to kill each other. On the other hand, human beings have, over time, come up with a notion of valuing life and death. It's not that life has any value in and of itself. It's that human beings have come up with a notion of value and applied that in various ways to the idea of life. In so doing, man started to resist total domination by his baser instincts and gave birth to a society overwhelmingly stronger and more complex than any other, surpassing those of all other creatures, and allowing him to ascend to the pinnacle of life on earth, to become the master of all he surveys.

"What is the definition of a human being? It's based on whether a creature understands the concept of a value system. Human infants are very much like animals in that they don't understand the idea of values, but then they study them, and in so doing arrive at their own sense of self-worth, as well as the value of other objects. They grow to recognise the value of other people and, in learning how to heighten their own sense of values, they finally begin to participate in society as human beings."

"In order to defend one set of values, humans have to annihilate opposing sets of values. I'm a being created specifically to bring about that annihilation. If it's humans who make values, it's also humans who break them."

(sighs) "What a profound thought — and yet so helpless at the same time. Is this your compensation for your own sense of helplessness? Having had your emotions denied you, with all the highs and lows that they entail, you seek to bring about nihilism in all living beings?"

"This place you call Paradise was built on the back of people's broken values. You're the ones who know all about toying with nihilism."

"Values come and values go. We've thrown out sacred cows in the past, and I'm sure we will again in the future. But as long as we remain fixed on our aim of creation, new values will emerge from the detritus of the old. This is most definitely not nihilism."

The quest for certainty is expressed through our innate need for something to believe in. We all share this.

We all share the need to breathe. We don't have to make it the center of our lives.

Quote:

It's part of the human condition. A need for meaning, a desire for life to have value.

You lost me. How do you go from "certainty" to "value". And that disconnect makes the rest of your post largely incomprehensible. Even if I understand isolated sentences, I don't see how they relate to your point about "living", or "the quest for certainty", or spirituality.

Quote:

To be human is to be aware of the concept of value. To be bereft of this awareness is to be something inhuman.

I said nothing about the importance of this awareness. I merely stated that it's there and that it's folly to deny that it exists within each and every one of us. I believe that, for many of us, the denial or ignorance is so strong that it would take a lot of living just to overcome the mental block, to recognise that the awareness exists.

Who the hell denies the very concept of value? And how does living come into it?

The quest for certainty is expressed through our innate need for something to believe in. We all share this. It's part of the human condition. A need for meaning, a desire for life to have value. To be human is to be aware of the concept of value. To be bereft of this awareness is to be something inhuman.

I said nothing about the importance of this awareness. I merely stated that it's there and that it's folly to deny that it exists within each and every one of us. I believe that, for many of us, the denial or ignorance is so strong that it would take a lot of living just to overcome the mental block, to recognise that the awareness exists.

To be happy; to laugh; to whoop with joy — to do any of these is to accept that you've achieved or experienced something you value, something you believe in. You may not have articulated that belief in so many words, but it's there. For some, such belief leads ultimately to God, or some other form of enlightenment. For others, it leads to other, more secular but no less spiritual, state of mind.

I make no judgment on these sets of values. I merely acknowledge that they exist, and point out the foolishness of those who would preach that only religion will lead to ignorance. As it turns out, religion can claim no monopoly over that distinction — humans are pretty capable of deluding themselves without the help of God.

The great joke is that all values are mental constructs. They aren't physical objects that exist independently from the minds of human beings. Without us to observe the beauty of a vase, that object would just be a vase or, rather, a lump of clay.

Yet we continue to seek such values, whether consciously or unconsciously. Yin and yang. There will always be that little bit of messiness in the order we seek to impose. It takes faith to accept that what order we find, whatever comforting certainty we can grasp, is worth the messiness — and uneasy doubt — that it inevitably brings along.

Men of faith learn to laugh, in good humour, at the necessary futility of their task. Men without faith merely succumb to debilitating despair.

42.

Spoiler for extract from Mardock Scramble: The Second Combustion:

"Of course they're contrived — what other sort of value system is there? Or are you saying that there's a physical, tangible object called a 'value' lying around somewhere, just waiting to be discovered so that everyone can see what truth is?"

"Does life have any value?"

"That question is folly — you have it all upside down. Value is not something that just exists. It's a concept, a construct. And when people neglect their duty to construct their own valuation of life, they revert back to being no more than beasts. After all, what is society if not a peculiarly human invention that allows people to conceptualise and propagate their own belief systems?

"It's been observed on numerous occasions that the act of killing other members of one's species is not limited to human beings — it's a trait observable in all animals. The reason that animals are furnished with the ability to kill is so that they can kill. For animals, the impetus to kill is always there, constantly at the ready. That's their system of self-perpetuation — their system is pure and simple, just like human society."

"Are you calling me an animal?"

"All human beings are animals, of course. But you, having lost your sense of values, are trying to fill that gaping hole with a particular set of instincts — that's why you're an animal. When animals cannibalise each other or persecute outsiders or create outcasts or commit suicide, or patricide, or infanticide, or fratricide — all these apparently abnormal acts are nothing more than a regression to a base animal instinct.

"Animals learn from their environment and their circumstances and pass on their learnt behaviours to their children, who inherit what they can from their parents. But when environments and circumstances change, so that they appear to contradict what they have learnt, well, that's when learning goes out the window, and animal instinct kicks in to produce those behaviours that we call 'abnormal'...

"Do you think that human beings are the only animals to wage war? Think again. It's actually fair to say that pretty much any animal with a herd instinct will wage war one way or another. From insects to herbivores, all living creatures wage war… Human beings are a long way from escaping their animal instincts. In which case, what exactly is the difference between man and animal? The creation of values.

"On the one hand, animals have all sorts of reasons — besides simple predation — to kill each other. On the other hand, human beings have, over time, come up with a notion of valuing life and death. It's not that life has any value in and of itself. It's that human beings have come up with a notion of value and applied that in various ways to the idea of life. In so doing, man started to resist total domination by his baser instincts and gave birth to a society overwhelmingly stronger and more complex than any other, surpassing those of all other creatures, and allowing him to ascend to the pinnacle of life on earth, to become the master of all he surveys.

"What is the definition of a human being? It's based on whether a creature understands the concept of a value system. Human infants are very much like animals in that they don't understand the idea of values, but then they study them, and in so doing arrive at their own sense of self-worth, as well as the value of other objects. They grow to recognise the value of other people and, in learning how to heighten their own sense of values, they finally begin to participate in society as human beings."

"In order to defend one set of values, humans have to annihilate opposing sets of values. I'm a being created specifically to bring about that annihilation. If it's humans who make values, it's also humans who break them."

(sighs) "What a profound thought — and yet so helpless at the same time. Is this your compensation for your own sense of helplessness? Having had your emotions denied you, with all the highs and lows that they entail, you seek to bring about nihilism in all living beings?"

"This place you call Paradise was built on the back of people's broken values. You're the ones who know all about toying with nihilism."

"Values come and values go. We've thrown out sacred cows in the past, and I'm sure we will again in the future. But as long as we remain fixed on our aim of creation, new values will emerge from the detritus of the old. This is most definitely not nihilism."

How would you define someone who has faith in their conviction of atheism? As in, they admit to a lack of knowledge on the 'great mysteries' of reality, but have faith in their conclusion that the material world can be understood without a creator? Faith is not exclusively tied to spirituality or religion, as I'm sure you know. It's actually particularly important, one could argue, in the scientific discipline, as we to some extent must have faith in both the system, the insights of those before us, and our own ability to wade through those insights to produce our own.

I'm an agnostic, and I believe the conclusion I have faith in, that neither you nor I are even remotely capable of truly imagining how/why (if there is a why) the universe came about. As a result, human religion, often inherently human in nature with anthropomorphized beings and concepts that make sense to our minds, seems to me a dismally improbable occurrence. Admitting my lack of expertise in the finer workings of reality itself , I do not exclude them from possibility outright, but my faith leads me to more or less throw them out as active considerations.

Putting aside my above commentary on faith, don't you think it's possible to completely discount spirituality, and look at reality from a purely scientific point of view, and still be in awe and ecstasy of the world we live in? I am not spiritual at all, but every day driving through my hometown I feel pure and complete wonder at the universe, the Earth, the life on this planet. The sheer magnitude, the diversity, and the incomprehensible nature of the universe is enough for me. I am, by no means, a 'man of faith' from a religious point of view (as I'm sure you intended the phrase to be used), but I can certainly laugh at the futility of grasping reality, and my utter inability to ever truly understand. In fact, this insurmountable, indescribable bounty of concepts we've yet to understand, and mysteries, makes the secular universe, to me, all the more 'divine'.

I'm Roman Catholic. And this is the first religion thread I've ever come across that didn't have people flaming and bashing each other. I'm... So happy. *tears of joy*

It has had some turmoil in it in the past. If I recall correctly, I've seen this thread temporarily locked once, maybe twice, to create a cool down period since some members became too involved in heated debates.

It has had some turmoil in it in the past. If I recall correctly, I've seen this thread temporarily locked once, maybe twice, to create a cool down period since some members became too involved in heated debates.

Some people just don't know how to respect other's. I'm still glad there are people who are open minded when in comes to religion... I believe all religions are good and its just the people who make it look bad.

Some people just don't know how to respect other's. I'm still glad there are people who are open minded when in comes to religion... I believe all religions are good and its just the people who make it look bad.

I think a lot of religions are good. Some I think are bad, but I won't point out any in particular to avoid upsetting others, but for a good example, there are bad cults out there. That would be an example of religions I think are bad. Most people know cults are bad, that is an extreme example. There are some religions I wouldn't advocate, but many of them I would.

I think the major religions of the world would be Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism. I think they have the most followers. Not so much with Judaism, but it factors into Christianity a lot, and it factors into Islam to a lesser extent, and things from Judaism have been heavily integrated into western civilization. I think those five religions offer good things, and I'd advocate them to others. I also think Taoism and Confucianism offer much good. For westerners, I would advocate Taoism (and a lot of westerners benefit from and draw inspiration from what is known as 'philosophical Taoism') and I'd advocate people to read up on Confucianism and learn from its founder (I'm not sure if anyone outside of China/people who used to live in China really follow the religion in its pure form, with rituals and dogma and such).

There are other religions I like or am okay with, too. I'm pretty open minded. It is great to be open minded. Open minded people accept many people for who they are. There is a quote: "Your mind is like an umbrella, it is best if it is open". Being open minded is usually very good. There is another quote I came across once: "Don't let your mind be so open that your brains spill out". I'm accepting or tolerant of many religions, but not all of them. Also, I don't like atheism (I just don't agree with it at all), but I'm just fine with atheists. In fact, I've had a few atheist friends over the years (and I never pushed my beliefs on them), and then I have one good friend who is an atheist, and I just don't care that he is one. He's a good guy, I like him for who he is, and I'm glad he is the person he is. I'm a very spiritual person, so I used to have a prejudice against atheists in the past. Then a some point I realized that was no good and over time I've become much better with that. I overcame it, I just don't like atheists who are prejudiced against spiritual people and religious people and have a habit of challenging the beliefs and faith of believers, with no other intent other then to try and make their faith unstable or to make them lose faith.

It has had some turmoil in it in the past. If I recall correctly, I've seen this thread temporarily locked once, maybe twice, to create a cool down period since some members became too involved in heated debates.

I see. Well, at least from what I'm seeing now, it has a friendlier atmosphere.

I used to be closed-minded especially about atheists when I was in high school. Until I entered college and made friends who were atheists. It changed my view on on things, and we both respected each others' beliefs/nonbeliefs.

Thing is whether you're a believer or not, there're bound to be closed-minded jerks in your sect. I have seen jerks in both the same religion I'm in and in atheism.

We all share the need to breathe. We don't have to make it the center of our lives.

Even if you don't make it the center of your life, you will not live at all without breathing.

Humanity is engineered to believe in something. Doesn't necessarily have to be God Almighty or Zeus. It can be your parents, friends, your wealth, your job, your pride, anything. It really is innate, as much as our need to breathe or feed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Putting aside my above commentary on faith, don't you think it's possible to completely discount spirituality, and look at reality from a purely scientific point of view, and still be in awe and ecstasy of the world we live in?

I can somewhat relate with this. The awe I felt as I venture deeper into the scientific world was actually what kept my theistic faith in me.

There are other religions I like or am okay with, too. I'm pretty open minded. It is great to be open minded. Open minded people accept many people for who they are. There is a quote: "Your mind is like an umbrella, it is best if it is open". Being open minded is usually very good. There is another quote I came across once: "Don't let your mind be so open that your brains spill out". I'm accepting or tolerant of many religions, but not all of them. Also, I don't like atheism (I just don't agree with it at all), but I'm just fine with atheists. In fact, I've had a few atheist friends over the years (and I never pushed my beliefs on them), and then I have one good friend who is an atheist, and I just don't care that he is one. He's a good guy, I like him for who he is, and I'm glad he is the person he is. I'm a very spiritual person, so I used to have a prejudice against atheists in the past. Then a some point I realized that was no good and over time I've become much better with that. I overcame it, I just don't like atheists who are prejudiced against spiritual people and religious people and have a habit of challenging the beliefs and faith of believers, with no other intent other then to try and make their faith unstable or to make them lose faith.

As an agnostic atheist myself, I'd have to echo the sentiment that the atheist community is quite a lot like the theist community. Just as certain religions have their fundamentalists, there are a lot of atheists who are just as uncritical and just hate theistic religions irrationally. Of course, another factor should be considered is that in primarily theistic societies, the atheist community would form but a small minority. As such, one might find that a larger portion of atheists tend to be nonconformists, which would mean that they would indeed be more critical minded.

One thing that some atheists need to understand is that, in my opinion, some beliefs should just be left alone. As some posts above have stated, people seek certainty in their lives, whether it be from sensory input, cold hard logic, or religious faith. Imposing your own belief on someone else is the worst thing you can do since beliefs are a manifestation of one's own subjective experiences.

__________________

"There’s an up higher than up, but at the very top, down is all there is."

I'm Roman Catholic. And this is the first religion thread I've ever come across that didn't have people flaming and bashing each other. I'm... So happy. *tears of joy*

My parents are Roman Catholic and I'm Christian. Welcome to the loving family.

Bashing religious beliefs is just like bashing personal interests; we are all of free will and thought, and what if you don't believe what I believe? Then you have your own belief, and nobody should ever touch that.

I definitely do encourage the learning of other religions though, just to take the good from them and better ourselves as people.

One thing that some atheists need to understand is that, in my opinion, some beliefs should just be left alone. As some posts above have stated, people seek certainty in their lives, whether it be from sensory input, cold hard logic, or religious faith. Imposing your own belief on someone else is the worst thing you can do since beliefs are a manifestation of one's own subjective experiences.

I'm atheist and I do agree with that. Used to be quite arguable in these matters a few years ago. Today, most of the time I just prefer the live and let live option. All the other people in my workplace have a religion, they know I'm an atheist and I get along with them just fine.

There was actually only one time the past 2 years that I got into a semi-serious religious argument. Believe it or not, in a massage parlor. Halfway during the session, the masseuse asked if I had religion - to which I casually answered none (in the casual tone that I use at work). Suddenly her manner of speaking changed and I sense the atmosphere become heavy. Considered leaving but the massage fee would be wasted, so I stayed and finished it. It was one of the most awkward massage sessions I ever experienced, and I haven't gone back to that place ever since.

I'm atheist and I do agree with that. Used to be quite arguable in these matters a few years ago. Today, most of the time I just prefer the live and let live option. All the other people in my workplace have a religion, they know I'm an atheist and I get along with them just fine.

There was actually only one time the past 2 years that I got into a semi-serious religious argument. Believe it or not, in a massage parlor. Halfway during the session, the masseuse asked if I had religion - to which I casually answered none (in the casual tone that I use at work). Suddenly her manner of speaking changed and I sense the atmosphere become heavy. Considered leaving but the massage fee would be wasted, so I stayed and finished it. It was one of the most awkward massage sessions I ever experienced, and I haven't gone back to that place ever since.

How unprofessional. Nothing like that should ever get in the way of someone doing their job, but especially not something that should be open-minded like that. Hopefully it wasn't anything discouraging for ya.

P.S. I find it really interesting that one of the tags for this thread is "Not a Debate".

I come from a really catholic country where a lot of people struggle everyday just to make ends meet. Probably for some, faith is one thing that keeps them going, and that should be respected. I just happened to come across a zealot working in that massage place. In that situation, avoiding further tension is the best choice, so I simply chose not to go back to the place.

Quote:

P.S. I find it really interesting that one of the tags for this thread is "Not a Debate".

Back in 2007 (or maybe it was 2008), this thread is WWIII. I was debating two people, one of the persons I was debating is also arguing with two other people. Several times the thread almost got permanently closed. Ironically, one of my first friends in this forum is one of the persons I was engaged in a debate with. The flag of truce was raised (agree to disagree) and it all ended well.

Anyway, as I've said in a previous post. I've changed my ways, as much as possible avoid conflicts. It's better to try and get along with religious people than get into debates with them, both in internet and real life.

I'm an Atheist, and while I would much prefer to have a civil debate with anyone in regards to religion, by my own nature I won't suffer Stupidity, so as most would be able to figure out, debating Religion on the internet can be difficult.

I do stand by the live and let live position, but if any religious person wanted to confront me about being an Atheist, then I will gladly give them a belting.

I can somewhat relate with this. The awe I felt as I venture deeper into the scientific world was actually what kept my theistic faith in me.

Heh, that's interesting, and I often wonder if the sheer joy and wonder of our world that I sometimes feel is the same feeling some theists describe. I do believe the world can be appreciated in all it's grandeur from both points of view.

Reminds me a bit of the anthropic principle. Theists and atheists both try to use it to support their opinion. Ultimately, I throw it out because there are too many unknown variables, most important of which is the question: could reality be any different?

Heh, that's interesting, and I often wonder if the sheer joy and wonder of our world that I sometimes feel is the same feeling some theists describe. I do believe the world can be appreciated in all it's grandeur from both points of view.

Reminds me a bit of the anthropic principle. Theists and atheists both try to use it to support their opinion. Ultimately, I throw it out because there are too many unknown variables, most important of which is the question: could reality be any different?

I'm a very spiritual person and I believe in spiritual reality, but I think atheists do indeed have spiritual experiences. I mean, they may not label it as that and may not believe in metaphysics, but they are not separated from spiritual reality and spiritual energies because of that. That is my view.

I remember this math professor talking about how he solved a math equation that he was working on for a long time. I think it was well over a year. When he finally figured it out and realized how everything in the equation fell into place in his mind, he said it was so beautiful, and when he said that, he said it fondly and with a big smile on his face as he recalled that moment. That is an example of what I'm talking about. That was a beautiful moment for him. I'd say it was a spiritual moment for a man working on mathematics.

I think Carl Sagan had a love for life and science, and I think for him, learning about the universe and pondering the wonders of the universe were like spiritual things for him - just that, he didn't label it as such or think of it that way. But it was probably all aligned with feelings and experiences that spiritual people would have from spiritual experiences.

You can certainly retain spirituality no matter how science-oriented, agnostic, atheistic, or whatever you are. You just have to be willing to discard doctrine crapola your "faith of upbringing" is carting along with it.

Quote:

"If science proves some belief of Buddhism wrong, then Buddhism will have to change. In my view, science and Buddhism share a search for the truth and for understanding reality. By learning from science about aspects of reality where its understanding may be more advanced, I believe that Buddhism enriches its own worldview." - Dalai Lama.