"His feeling that this world is not his Fatherland, and that it does not represent his proper condition, so to speak—his feeling that, basically, he 'comes from afar'—will remain a fundamental element which will not give rise to mystical escapism and spiritual weakness, but rather will enable him to minimise, to relativise, to refer to higher concepts of measure and limit, all that can seem important and definitive to others, starting with death itself, and will confer on him calm force and breadth of vision." — Julius Evola

I dunno, I think the Joker is more IEI than SEI. He's all about seeing how people are "when the chips are down" and such, which is a very, very Beta NF kind of thing. My EIE friend and I had an extensive discussion once about making people feel awkward and seeing how people act when you push them out of their comfort zone, when they are forced to deal with something unfamiliar, when people push the envelope and so forth. "The Naked Feeling"

The Joker seems obsessed with his conception of human nature, which is the kind of territory that I think Beta NFs often delve into; I know that I've taken these kinds of things "too far" before myself. He also seems to be very much enamored with his "image" as frightening, talking all about his scars and putting on all the makeup and soforth.

I think the generally self-entertaining nature of his antics points more Alpha than Beta, as does the "Do I look like a man with a plan?" quote but I think the former is more stereotypically villain-esque than anything, and the latter almost seems like the ontological "result" of his self-centered perspective on human nature (ie it's part of his "philosophy" more than his personality). Looking at the whole picture IEI makes more sense I think.

But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...

And I know I'm going to be accused of bias here, but I'm going to agree with Ezra and say that Bale's Wayne/Batman is ESI:

He's got a very small circle of friends, pretty much only two people (three, if you count Gordon).

He keeps a cool psychological distance from even his close friends, except when in the most intimate of situations.

He doesn't do business or play politics with people he doesn't feel he can trust, preferring instead to use force as Batman to deal with people he doesn't like or trust.

He takes very little time deciding that someone is trustworthy. He wanted to feel out Dent at dinner, and seemed to do so very quickly.

He has a lack of concern for rank and the law, having no moral qualms going against the establishment to exact his own vigilante justice, even if it means beating up police officers, smuggling himself into other countries, kidnapping, etc.

No problem exerting violent force on people when he feels they deserve it.

He's got strong Fe he uses to pretend to be an asshole Beta when in his public Bruce Wayne persona.

He doesn't seem to have any real interest in his gadgets or toys beyond seeing them as tools, though he does show a mild personal interest in cars for their Se value. His dwellings are always spartan and tidy. His appearance is meticulous. This doesn't necessarily point toward ESI, but I think it does point away from intuitive types somewhat, and in my opinion it means strong Si.

His conversation with Gordon at the end of Batman Begins seemed like possible EII/ESI relations. They were both on the same page in terms of Fi, but Gordon was bringing up Ne concerns about possible criminal escalation, which Batman seemed to find irrelevant.

I can see Bruce as an ESI. Rachel as EIE could make sense as well, but Lucius Fox as IEE I cannot see at all. He seems solidly IJ to me. I could see EII, though; 1w2 nonetheless.

Why ILE for the Joker? I thought his worldview being centered around his positions on human nature, as well as the showmanship and dramatics he engages in that are totally irrelevant, and actually detrimental, to his criminal methods and the general victim (literally) attitude of the character were all very much Beta NF; however, ironically, what makes him so unstoppable is his ability to predict how people will react in certain situations; he sets traps for people and manipulates them to get them to do what he wants them to do in order to not only pull off a squeaky-clean crime, but to also deliberately and directly thwart his pursuer's attempts at catching him; indeed that seems to be half the game for him. Also his tirades about Batman's "rules" seemed like Beta "ends-justify-the-means" commentary on the common-sense morality of Gamma.

As for Dent, I could see LIE more easily than LSE. I don't think an LSE would be "afraid" of public appearances like parties the way he was; more just tired or annoyed. I think he displays some good signs of weak Se (although admittedly the courtroom scene was not one of them, lol). My first impression of him was actually EIE, but the relationship with Rachel and the approach to the character as being inherently good and pure in some way made me shy away from EIE as a typing for him. Also I think the highly Gamma theme of "revenge" is played out as his primary character flaw.

Last edited by Gilly; 07-19-2008 at 10:30 PM.

But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...

I had actually considered EIE as a possible type for Joker, but he may be too insane to type.

Yeah, he is insane obviously, but did you read my reasons for Beta NF? Psycho-social-centric philosophy, predicting people's reactions, wanting to get under people's skin and know who they really are "when the cards are down," showboating, eccentric self-presentation, etc...I think the part where he talks about his "three loves" is very Ti: he has this set of preferred tools that he uses, and keeps his methods of crime simple by staying within his small set of "rules" for causing mayhem while combining it with his manipulation of human nature and ability to predict people's reactions...I dunno, seems very Beta to me.

But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...

Yeah, he is insane obviously, but did you read my reasons for Beta NF? Psycho-social-centric philosophy, predicting people's reactions, wanting to get under people's skin and know who they really are "when the cards are down," showboating, eccentric self-presentation, etc...I think the part where he talks about his "three loves" is very Ti: he has this set of preferred tools that he uses, and keeps his methods of crime simple by staying within his small set of "rules" for causing mayhem while combining it with his manipulation of human nature and ability to predict people's reactions...I dunno, seems very Beta to me.

I didn't see it until after I'd posted that.

It was his theatrical nature and delight in affecting people's moods and thoughts that suggested EIE to me. His little experiment with the ferries might be used as an example... his interactions with Dent... the thing with the hostages towards the end... his confidence that he wouldn't get killed by the guy who he told to kill him in the bank at the beginning. He was fascinated with human nature and behavior.

Yeah, like I said before, the idea of "not having a plan" is more a part of his philosophy than his actual methods.

I don't think it's even really a part of his philosophy... I think he was just manipulating Dent. He wasn't simply looking to show people that they were fools for trying to scheme... he was showing then that they were fools for trying to out scheme him.

And I know I'm going to be accused of bias here, but I'm going to agree with Ezra and say that Bale's Wayne/Batman is ESI:

He's got a very small circle of friends, pretty much only two people (three, if you count Gordon).

He keeps a cool psychological distance from even his close friends, except when in the most intimate of situations.

He doesn't do business or play politics with people he doesn't feel he can trust, preferring instead to use force as Batman to deal with people he doesn't like or trust.

He takes very little time deciding that someone is trustworthy. He wanted to feel out Dent at dinner, and seemed to do so very quickly.

He has a lack of concern for rank and the law, having no moral qualms going against the establishment to exact his own vigilante justice, even if it means beating up police officers, smuggling himself into other countries, kidnapping, etc.

No problem exerting violent force on people when he feels they deserve it.

He's got strong Fe he uses to pretend to be an asshole Beta when in his public Bruce Wayne persona.

He doesn't seem to have any real interest in his gadgets or toys beyond seeing them as tools, though he does show a mild personal interest in cars for their Se value. His dwellings are always spartan and tidy. His appearance is meticulous. This doesn't necessarily point toward ESI, but I think it does point away from intuitive types somewhat, and in my opinion it means strong Si.

His conversation with Gordon at the end of Batman Begins seemed like possible EII/ESI relations. They were both on the same page in terms of Fi, but Gordon was bringing up Ne concerns about possible criminal escalation, which Batman seemed to find irrelevant.

Many of these can be explained away by the pragmatic necessity of Bruce Wayne purposefully keeping his life with the crime fighting persona separate. The strong Fe that you think that you see, seems rather as Bruce Wayne leaning on his Fi-role as a means to maintain his social relations in a manner similar to other LSI I have observed. Batman and the Joker have a highly bizarre duality in which each almost instinctively seems to understand the other for good or for ill.

I don't think it's even really a part of his philosophy... I think he was just manipulating Dent. He wasn't simply looking to show people that they were fools for trying to scheme... he was showing then that they were fools for trying to out scheme him.

I think that's how it really was, but I think the way he seem to have been thinking of it was in terms of securing long-term stability and a predictable environment for themselves; however, like I said, in reality the biggest obstacle to this stability was the Joker himself, so the reality of a "lack of stability" was merely an illusion, probably something relevant to his life experience and (as the description on Lytov's site recognizes as typical of EIEs) projected onto a global scale (I totally do this too, lmao).

But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...

i find it hilarious that while watching it i felt like i was watching a comedy almost. the joker was comedic relief while still causing all the ruckus. good job heath...good job.

the pencil part in the very beginning, fucking hilarious. a friend and i burst out laughing at it...while everyone else just gasped. i was pleasantly surprised my friend shared my humor in that matter.

SEE Unknown Subtype
6w7 sx/so

[21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
[21:29] hitta: and not dying
.

"His feeling that this world is not his Fatherland, and that it does not represent his proper condition, so to speak—his feeling that, basically, he 'comes from afar'—will remain a fundamental element which will not give rise to mystical escapism and spiritual weakness, but rather will enable him to minimise, to relativise, to refer to higher concepts of measure and limit, all that can seem important and definitive to others, starting with death itself, and will confer on him calm force and breadth of vision." — Julius Evola

Batman was probably Gamma NT(though quite possibly Beta ST). The Joker was definitely Alpha(I don't really see any other possibility). Alphas have this way of seeing society for what it really is, just a bunch of people playing along for their social comforts. I actually related to the Joker in a lot of ways(though I'm not planning on killing people).

Yes, well... I still think Batman is more likely ESI (in Batman Begins and Dark Knight). Also, I don't see IEE's as representing "chaos", and there are other types that make more sense for Joker than IEE.

Yes, well... I still think Batman is more likely ESI (in Batman Begins and Dark Knight). Also, I don't see IEE's as representing "chaos", and there are other types that make more sense for Joker than IEE.

And I happen to still think that Batman is more likely LSI (in Batman Begins and Dark Knights). I do think that the Joker had a Ti-PoLR.

I don't think the Delta Quadra in any way represents or encompasses "chaos;" if anything, they are the paragon quadra of stability.

I think that Batman and Joker could actually feasibly be duals: they fight for the same territory, if you will: they both try to "improve" upon society based on what their ideals dictate, without regard for the opinions of others and disregarding some of the practical consequences. Pretty Beta if you ask me.

And that comment Joker makes about them "needing" each other, and not being able to kill each other (the Joker for "fun," Fe, and Batman for his "principles," Ti). I think LSI-EIE duality isn't a bad choice for the two of them, although it's not a set-in-stone opinion.

But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...

Yeah, he is insane obviously, but did you read my reasons for Beta NF? Psycho-social-centric philosophy, predicting people's reactions, wanting to get under people's skin and know who they really are "when the cards are down," showboating, eccentric self-presentation, etc...I think the part where he talks about his "three loves" is very Ti: he has this set of preferred tools that he uses, and keeps his methods of crime simple by staying within his small set of "rules" for causing mayhem while combining it with his manipulation of human nature and ability to predict people's reactions...I dunno, seems very Beta to me.

IEE my ass. Joker would tell a different story each time about how he got his scares, and he would make up stuff on the spot just to get emotional affect. I see no Te valuing at all in him. Particularly Te+Si valuing.

It is very easy to see beta NF. He is a rotten, unhealthy person and not all beta NFs are that way of course. But you want to see a really "bad" example of beta NF? I say Joker.

Just like dealing with upset betas in real life, you make a mistake when you listen to them or any of their arguments, because it's fake-facts. Don't try to reason because it's never about what really is the case, it's about the emotional/force impact, it's about manipulation (from a Te-valuing perspective). Joker took that to a very unhealthy extreme. One of the few things he spoke seriously and directly about was his understanding of humanity's psychological underpinnings, and even then, he was always aware of the impact of what he was saying.

"Do you want to know how many of your friends I killed?" That scene in particular, where he's just about to break out of jail, was all about emotional manipulation. (as were many others).

I think the Joker's SEI. He said something about "just doing ... not knowing what he'd do if he got what he was chasing" ... sounds like Si to me - enjoying the ride, not caring about the destination. I think the "Do I look like a man with a plan?" thing was true in part, in the sense that he seems to use tactics rather than strategy. Like he has a vague idea of "if they do this, I'll do this", but no concrete plan.

I don't think he's IEE because he seems to be too within himself. He's so caught up in his own little world of feelings that he's able to somehow believe himself superior to others in that he's 'real' while everyone else is fake. He falsely predicts what the people are going to do in the ferry situation because he is too caught up in his own feelings and assumes that at heart, people are as inherently selfish and twisted as him.

And his face paint thing is SEI all over. (c: He's got scars, so he works with them and makes them his trademark. lol

IEE my ass. Joker would tell a different story each time about how he got his scares, and he would make up stuff on the spot just to get emotional affect. I see no Te valuing at all in him. Particularly Te+Si valuing.

Being Te-valuing does not mean 'constantly truthful.' Pathological liars can be found amongst all types.

Just like dealing with upset betas in real life, you make a mistake when you listen to them or any of their arguments, because it's fake-facts. Don't try to reason because it's never about what really is the case, it's about the emotional/force impact, it's about manipulation (from a Te-valuing perspective).

Your "Te-valuing perspective" drips of fake-facts of your own that you may want to attend to.

I think the Joker's SEI. He said something about "just doing ... not knowing what he'd do if he got what he was chasing" ... sounds like Si to me - enjoying the ride, not caring about the destination. I think the "Do I look like a man with a plan?" thing was true in part, in the sense that he seems to use tactics rather than strategy. Like he has a vague idea of "if they do this, I'll do this", but no concrete plan.

Being Te-valuing does not mean 'constantly truthful.' Pathological liars can be found amongst all types.

That's why I didn't say Te valuing types means 'constantly truthful'.
You're changing what I'm saying and making a strawman out of it.

Surely pathological liars can be of all types. But I still think that joker portrays a beta NF > delta NF because of what he was focusing on. You seem to be making the association that I'm saying beta NFs are bad guys, liars, and morally corrupt, and delta NFs aren't. That is not my point.

Your "Te-valuing perspective" drips of fake-facts of your own that you may want to attend to.

You seem to be reacting to the emotional content of what I'm saying, and being defensive on the behalf of a socionics type.

It's like you took what I said and just thought "well, he's clearly putting beta NFs down, and he's clearly biased, so I must defend them". I understand you are trying to be fair in what you're doing, but I think your comments are unwarranted.

eta: eh, I have a feeling this post isn't going to do really affect much. Oh well. I'll just say I understand what you're trying to say, Logos, yes. You're point is reasonable.

That's why I didn't say Te valuing types means 'constantly truthful'.
You're changing what I'm saying and making a strawman out of it.

Not at all. You said that he essentially constantly lied for a desired effect and that this somehow meant that he could not value Te. My response was hardly a stretch, especially in the context of the rest of your post.

You seem to be reacting to the emotional content of what I'm saying, and being defensive on the behalf of a socionics type.

It's like you took what I said and just thought "well, he's clearly putting beta NFs down, and he's clearly biased, so I must defend them". I understand you are trying to be fair in what you're doing, but I think your comments are unwarranted.

You do a terrible job of reading peoples' motives. Do not confuse my response to your untruthful post with emotional defensiveness. Even devoid of emotional content, your post had clear errors regarding Beta NFs, but perhaps you also did not realize your own misconceptions regarding Beta NFs. Calling the content of Beta NFs "false-facts" is straight-up unverified and insubstantiated bullshit. Your advocation of essentially ignoring any arguments made by Beta NFs ("you make a mistake when you listen to them or any of their arguments") also falls into this category of "clear UDP ignorance."