Saturday, June 11, 2011

It may seem pointless dealing with the contemptible behavior of trolls, an activity annoying enough for any hundred people. Especially when the troll in question takes this pitifully dishonest tack of assailing us with the most repugnant insults he can come up with (and if you ask me, Matt could hardly be blamed if he knocked Gavin Chandler's teeth down his throat over the things he wrote about Beth, though of course Matt won't, because he's a bigger man than that, and both Matt and Beth have already dismissed Gavin as beneath their notice, let alone their contempt) only to shift gears, apologize profusely, and try to claim that all he was doing was trying to teach us a lesson about how horrible it feels to be abused so awfully, which he seems to think we do to all our callers, and to which he also seems to think his disgracefully juvenile behavior is somehow analogous.

In short, Gavin's a despicable creep whose failure to make his point effectively — if in fact that's what he was all about — is so epic it's hard to wrap your mind around it fully. I didn't think it was possible, but he's actually been worse than the lamentable Yomin, whom I did almost sue for libel (and whose life has since spectacularly fallen apart, as he's currently facing misdemeanor domestic violence charges). Gavin's like someone who notices that his neighbors have allowed their trash cans to spill over onto his yard, and responds by burning their house down, then saying, "There! You see what it's like having your property line violated? Be more respectful next time!"

Gavin wrote what he calls his "final" email to us — though there have been several after that, which I won't read, even though the subject line on one of them is "I am deeply ashamed of myself." (He should be, but a burnt bridge is a burnt bridge.) Still, with this one, he promised that if we posted it, he'd go away for good. I doubt this, and he's still commenting like mad on our Facebook page. But here's the letter, with responses from both Tracie (reprinted from Facebook with permission) and myself, in the hopes (eyeroll) that he'll live up to his promise.

Yes, I know, feeding trolls only makes them come back for more. But I weigh the instructive value of doing this kind of thing to be worth something, if only so that people know what's out there awaiting you when you do what we do, and how desperately people will distort the facts to make a point that really wasn't all that earth-shaking to begin with. Still, I'll understand anyone who thinks any more attention given this kid is unwarranted, and chooses to skip this post.

Gavin's subject line on this one was "AETV - A Respectful Presentation of My Actual Concerns."

I decided to gather my thoughts, take a hot bath, and write a message free of insults and hate, to clearly explain my concerns. This email is the result.

Tracie: I can hardly wait.

There's more to life than the first amendment. What about being calm and collected when you take viewer calls? You should try that. You'd reach more hearts and minds that way.

Tracie: Very insightful from the guy who submitted nothing but letter after letter full of laughable lists of ridiculous slanders as his input to reaching hearts and minds.

Martin: The Atheist Experience has run continually since 1997, when I suspect Gavin was still playing with Transformers. For most of that time it has been a live call-in show. The entire time, it has been a learning experience. One of the things about live television is that you never know what you're going to get. A call can start well then go south in a hurry. A theist you thought might be a jerk may turn out to provide interesting conversation, while a self-described atheist (lookin' at you, Charlie) may turn out to be a total douchey troll.

When I was host, I lost my temper a couple of times, which I'm not proud of. But you know, that's all part of learning. I also recall many heated debates with Christian callers — and before the days of YouTube and streaming, most of our callers were Christian — that nonetheless never collapsed into name-calling and rage.

Still, discussions between Christians and atheists can get heated simply by their very nature. For believers, their emotional attachment to the faith is so powerful that it's hard for them not to blow a gasket when confronted by a confident atheist argument. And no two callers are the same, even when, as today, most of them are fellow atheists.

Gavin is trying to claim that being rude and insulting to callers is our modus operandi across the board, which any honest viewer who's watched more than a tiny handful of fan-posted YouTube clips knows full well is just plain false. So if Gavin's starting out his "respectful" presentation with a total misrepresentation of the show, how does he expect to reach our hearts and minds now?

Only a child would...

Tracie: EMOTIONAL MANIPULATION ATTEMPT FLAG: If you do what I'm about to say, then you're a "child." What he doesn't get is that this only means it's his personal assessment that only a child would do what he's about to say. And he doesn't get that it requires buy-in from the other party in the conversation to have any real impact. In other words, if I disagree that only a child would do it, it takes the wind out of the proverbial sails.

...defend screaming and swearing and belittling someone by wrapping it in the Constitution. Sure, it is OK to do it, under law...

Tracie: That would mean that it is, in fact, defended by the Constitution — and so does not require "wrapping" in anything — it is legal. It is Constitutional. We agree.

Martin: Gavin has this odd idea that, by acknowledging the Constitutional rights of groups like the Phelpses to hold protests at veterans' funerals — something every one of us finds a loathsome exercise in attention-seeking — somehow equates to endorsing that activity. Frankly, anyone so stupid as to not grasp that basic distinction is beyond communicating with, IMO.

We ran into this same stupid attitude last year from some people, when we acknowledged the rights of the Cordoba Initiative to construct Park 51 in Manhattan on property they owned. A handful of folks accused us of being "soft" on Islam. Honestly, how willfully ignorant and dishonest do you have to be to equate the one thing with the other? Acknowledging a right is not the same thing as supporting or endorsing the person(s) exercising that right. I mean, freaking duh! (And anyway, all those people protesting what they falsely call the "Ground Zero Mosque"? We acknowledge their rights too. Fancy that!)

but you seem to think that something legal is also MORALLY acceptable.

Tracie: Not quite — because I'd have to first see the clip in which we reacted so horribly to a caller that it could be unambiguously labeled as "immoral." Unfortunately, Gavin supplied no examples. But next, I want to note that when a behavior by others is labeled "immoral" — the onus is upon the one labeling to demonstrate it. Many actions have no moral quality at all — such as eating a berry. Is it moral or immoral? It's simply eating a berry — there is nothing moral to judge there. And could someone on the other end of a phone say an "immoral" thing to me? They can say things that are rude. Things I may not like. Things that may prompt me to hang up. But "immoral"? I'm not quite sold that raising your voice and using an expletive is "immoral."

You're confusing laws and morals.

Tracie: I think you're confusing "uncivil" with "immoral." Rude is not immoral. The bar for immoral is rather higher than rude.

They aren't the same thing.

Tracie: And nobody at AETV has ever said law is morality. In fact, we've often pointed out to callers these are two separate things — law and morality. So, no argument there.

Many things that are legal could be considered immoral.

Tracie: I wouldn't say "many" — but certainly some.

It's legal for a person to lie, so long as they aren't entering a contract or aren't under oath... but most people find it morally wrong to lie... how many relationships have been destroyed by dishonesty?

Tracie: Duplicity is something I would agree is, in some circumstances, immoral. Fortunately where it causes real damage, we do generally also have laws against it — such as fraud (which was mentioned). Is a lie that does no harm immoral? Can lying break relationships? Yes. I agree it can. But is dishonesty that harms a good comparison to rude honesty? If his only point is to say law and morality aren't the same, then no dialog needed, since we agree.

Martin: There are immoral lies, then there are totally moral lies. (If I know where Anne Frank is hiding, I'm going to lie my ass off to the Nazis.) Beyond that, I need no lecture on the morality of lying from a contemptible little fuck who repeatedly accused Matt of stealing money from the ACA to pay for his wedding.

Aw, was I being insulting again? You're welcome.

It is legal to cheat on your spouse, but most people find it immoral. It hurts the other party greatly, usually, and often destroys the relationship (where children are sometimes involved). But should freedom to cheat trump these other things? Since cheating is legal, is it also morally acceptable?

Tracie: See above.

It is legal to swear, call people names, and publicly humiliate them. But is it morally right?

Martin: Physician, heal thyself.

Tracie: And here I fail to see the comparison. For example, there was a lot of ink spilled when a woman called AETV to defend her beliefs and ended with an assertion she didn't need to defend anything to AETV. Matt asked "why the fuck did you call, then?" — and I found it to be a legitimate question and a fair expression of exasperation. Some people were upset that the woman excused herself from the call at that point, and felt Matt chased her off. But really, at the point she is asserting she isn't going to defend anything, wasn't she pretty well done? So, was the swearing "immoral," simply because this one caller said she was offended by it and hung up? I'd have to say "no."

Can I humiliate someone else on AETV? If so, how? I don't see this. If you think it's possible to verbally publicly humiliate a person by expressing your honest opinions about them (and bear in mind callers call us and can hang up any time), how are they humiliated when they're totally cloaked from public view and nobody even knows who they are but for the name they choose to give the phone screener? Additionally if you and I were in public and you tried to humiliate me, how would you go about it? Let's say you begin hurling insults. I think you'd come off looking like a loon as I walked away. But I'd hardly be personally "humiliated" by some wingnut hurling names at me publicly.

Such treatment can cause a person to have a nervous breakdown, become depressed, or even have thoughts of suicide. It can destroy a person's self esteem, cause them to withdraw into themselves, and make them lose all hope.

Tracie: Ah, OK, here is the core of our difference. I don't have a magic wand that gives me power to make people give a shit what I, as a total stranger, think of them. Anyone on this planet can say and think "I don't care what this woman thinks," and I have zero power to force them to care. So, no, I can't "cause" any of those things listed above by either having or expressing my negative assessment of a person or their beliefs. No matter how rude I am (and in fact, the more rude I am, the more they should realize I'm not a person whose opinion they should bother with), why should anyone care what Tracie thinks or says? Who am I? How does my opinion impact their lives if I do nothing to impact their lives, only express my assessment of it? Isn't their decision to internalize it and make it powerful theirs?

Martin: Essentially Gavin is chiding us because we are not sufficiently psychic to know in advance whether or not the caller on the other end may have such profound psychological distress in his life that he might just haul off and blow his brains out because Matt calls him an idiot. Well, gee, guilty as charged.

But what is Gavin's alternative there? A world where everyone is walking on eggshells, not speaking an opinion for fear that the person whose feelings they hurt might just jump off a bridge? How can we control another person's emotional state? And how is any choice they make our responsibility? We are a bunch of folks on TV taking about a subject — atheism — most people find socially unacceptable anyway. How exactly does Gavin propose we present it in a way inoffensive to everyone, even those predisposed to be offended as much as possible?

I do not deny the power of suasion. It is possible to be an irresponsible public figure whose words do harm. There are at least two incidents where men have been arrested while on their way to commit mass murders (one at the offices of the Tides Foundation, one at Planned Parenthood), who confessed to police that they were inspired to do their crimes after listening to Glenn Beck. While I don't hold Beck to blame for their choice to commit murder (he's very careful that way), I do think Beck is deliberately irresponsible in the way he creates a tone of fear, hatred and paranoia that a mentally imbalanced fan can run with.

Still, there's no remote comparison to that, and anything we've ever done on AETV. And as far as telling a stupid and arrogant caller that he's being stupid and arrogant, well, I say that's fair game. The vast majority of our calls are civil and pleasant. The crazy ones just make for the most entertaining and popular YouTube clips.

But since it is legal, that makes it ok?

Tracie: No, what makes it (not "OK," as it would be generally rude to swear and scream at people, but...) not immoral is that the "damage" caused is self-inflicted. You're basically willing to do self-inflicted damage in order to try to frame me for it. I think that is closer to immoral than calling someone an idiot. Trying, unabashed, to be an emotional manipulator is about as low as one can get.

It is ok to destroy someone's self esteem, peaceful mind, and hope for the future? It's legal, but is it morally right?

Tracie: The problem is that words can't do this in the context we're discussing. A subjective assessment of me by a stranger who has talked with me for a few minutes over the phone, while I remain anonymous to everyone, can hardly really harm me. Any "harm" I suffer as a result is at my own hands/brain.

I believe that with my few short examples, I have demonstrated that even something allowed under the law can be harmful to real human beings. This is the essence, the core reason that I object to the way you handle some of your callers.

Tracie: Gavin did give a couple decent examples of things that are legal that can mess up lives. But name-calling or swearing, in the AETV context, wasn't one of them. That's the problem.

Martin: The adult world is harsh. AETV isn't Romper Room. We don't seek to hurt anyone. But we have a duty to all our viewers to be as honest in our opinion and our communication as we can. Take yourself as a prime example, Gavin: We didn't make you feel the way you feel about us. We didn't make you troll the hell out of us with crazy emails full of threats and personal attacks. You chose to do those things, and the derision you're now enduring on Facebook and at this blog is the result of that choice — your choice. And the moment you have the epiphany that lets you understand that, you'll probably understand why your sanctimonious preaching about "moral" behavior is meeting with such universal derision, and why I set your words in Comic Sans, and why no one has gotten your "point," which you buried under a wave of petulant assholishness.

When you guys fiercely defend the first amendment, you are missing the larger picture.

Tracie: I guarantee you, we're not. And we don't use the first amendment as a defense for our responses to callers, anyway, because generally we don't even agree there's a basic moral problem with our caller responses. So we don't even need to get into legal defenses of it. The "harm" you're claiming isn't real. You can't call it "immoral" when the only "harm" it causes is genuinely self-inflicted discomfort. That's the caller's choice, not our doing or intent.

Words sometimes can, and do cause harm.

Martin: Says the piece of shit fucktool who wrote this: "Matt, by the way, Beth is an ugly fucking goon. Jesus Christ, you couldn't do any better than to find some ginger-haired pug-faced neanderthal for a potential wife? You can tell by the slanted aloof look on her face that her daddy definitely boned her in her ginger asshole a few more times than was necessary." Speaking from experience, Gavin?

Tracie: Not when they're honest assessments handed out to anonymous callers by people who have no authority over them or desire to interfere in their lives.

Martin: And it's my honest assessment that Gavin is a piece of shit fucktool. It would be tragic if he were to jump off a bridge. Not to me, but to someone.

What you are promoting by your unwavering support of the first amendment over all else is that respect, human decency, common courtesy, and polite restraint are worth nothing, and count for nothing.

Martin: (Breathe... count to 10...)

Tracie: Wow. So, unless we gut free speech (for the speech that most needs defending — offensive speech), we're against human decency: false dilemma fallacy. Fred Phelps may be indecent, but I can guarantee you that someone somewhere thinks what you have to say is indecent...

Martin: I'd say those someones number in the thousands by now.

Tracie: Should we only talk, then, about the weather? The fact is, you don't pass laws protecting speech that are intended to protect small talk and compliments. What sort of speech needs legal protection? That would be speech that is in danger of being silenced. Like him or not, that would be Fred Phelps.

That, to me, is shameful. Whether the Constitution says it or not, with freedom comes responsibility.

Martin: I think your very existence is shameful and irresponsible, Gavin. That's the thing about life. You gotta take the bad with the good.

Tracie: And maturity. Learn that you're hurting yourself. Stop blaming others for your childish offenses and attitude. Learn to not be so sensitive to what other people think. You really can choose to not care or worry about it. Try it. You'll be amazed how simple it is.

There is an element of verbal abuse that you have totally ignored, and that is the emotional element.

Martin: I think I'm just going to stop buying irony/hypocrisy meters. When they explode so frequently they get expensive to replace.

Tracie: When a person is, again, anonymous, and has a capacity to hang up at any time, you can't verbally abuse them beyond what they agree to accept. Again, if they don't like what they get, click, and we're shut down — it's that easy. How can I abuse anyone, beyond what they agree to accept, who has the capacity to shut me down that easily at any time?

Words can be strung together in such a fashion that they are considered abuse, legally. Ask psychologists about the effects of emotional abuse. Sometimes the effects can be as profound as the effects of physical abuse.

Martin: Did you consult a psychologist before composing that impressive string of remarks about Beth, you cockwart?

Tracie: Yes, and these studies were done on the short-term exposure (couple minutes or less) of AETV callers who where otherwise stable and had a host they don't even know say to them, as they were totally anonymous, "that's ridiculous." This is what destroys lives and damages psyches for a lifetime: not abusive parenting over many years, but an arguably rude two-minute phone conversation with a complete stranger, over which the caller has complete control, and can hang up at any time.

I've avoided insults in this email...

Martin: If there are any insults, the more offensive and hurtful the better, that I have failed to inflict upon you in answering this email, the oversight was unintentional. I invite our readers to make up the deficit.

Tracie: I'm guessing because you used them all up in your prior lunatic rants. But what you held back in insult, you made up for in inanity.

...to lay out in specific language exactly why I have a problem with hosts on your show verbally abusing callers.

Martin: Good job replacing "self-righteous dishonest bullshit" with "unmerited" there, Tracie. Sounds much more polite and civil. Goodness knows we wouldn't want Gav to go running off in tears or anything.

It is immoral.

Tracie: No, you're saying that, but you haven't demonstrated it. People need to take some personal, adult responsibility at some point in their lives and stop blaming others for how they feel and react.

Martin: And by "people," we mean "Gavin."

Tracie: If you go fetal and require 20 years of group therapy because an Internet show host called you "ridiculous," I think your problems existed before you called our show.

Martin: You think?

It hurts people more than you likely realize.

Tracie: Only immature, codependent "adults" who like to saddle others with their emotional responses and needs. If it were small children, who aren't fully emotionally developed, calling us, you might have a point.

Martin: I think Gavin has pulled off the remarkable feat of belonging to both those categories.

Sure, it gets a few laughs from the less-mature people amidst your viewers... but some of us take offense to it

Martin: Because Gavin is, of course, one of our more mature viewers...LOLOCAUST!

Tracie: And I should care, why? Some viewers aren't immature, and don't see a problem with it, and aren't just giggling over it.

...and rightly so.

Tracie: Says you.

Martin: And you are more worthy of being taken seriously than any other tone troll how, again?

All else aside, you're supposed to be mature adults conducting a discussion program.

Martin: No! You can't make me!

Tracie: Says the guy who can't even take responsibility for himself and his emotional reactions, the guy who wrote a list of immature idiotic libelous garbage to a group of strangers on the Internet. Yes, you're the poster boy for judging "maturity." If I, or anyone, go fetal because I am called "idiot," that's not the problem of the person who assessed and described me as an idiot. I need to work out my own some self-esteem issues. But I can't expect others to live their lives walking on egg shells, worried that every person they meet is a fragile, emotional basket case. People deserve more credit than that.

Tracie: I call Shenanigans. If you call in and are unreasonable, and you're called "unreasonable" (or some facsimile thereof), that's no more "abuse" than calling a red-head a red-head. I've said it 1,000 times, and here is 1,001: If you don't want to be called "stupid," the best way to avoid it is to not make stupid comments to us on the phone. Being stupid, and then getting angry when you are described as "stupid," is...well...stupid.

Martin: Really, we only pile on the abuse when it is earned. Take you, for instance...

That isn't illegal, but is it morally acceptable?

Martin: I can honestly say that there is coliform bacteria slaloming around my toilet bowl that gives more of a shit (see what I did there?) about what you think is "morally acceptable" than I do. And you lost your right to take any kind of moral high ground on any subject about 10 emails ago. Tone trolling from such a contemptible and dishonest hypocrite is only good for a laugh, or a sneer of disgust.

Tracie: It's not morally anything. Comparing an AETV host who says to an anonymous caller after a couple minutes "you're being an idiot" to people damaging their kids using verbal abuse on a forming, immature mind...is just...well...stupid, again.

Even further, do you think such behavior paints you as a respectable organization?

Martin: We have 14 years of establishing ourselves as a respectable organization, and have achieved global acclaim thereby. Matt has engaged in public debates with clergymen. Some of the rest of us have represented ACA in both formal and informal capacities, and met with uniformly friendly responses. We get several emails a week from viewers who thank us for helping with their personal crises of belief and conviction, for helping them deal with religious family members in ways that don't alienate them from their families altogether, or just to say thanks for all we do. So, we're not worried about being perceived as a respectable organization, because we know we are. And it's because — pay attention to this point closely — the overwhelming majority of our viewers are not emotionally stunted adolescent hysterics who hear the occasional rude word on our TV show, and get their panties so bunched that they feel sufficiently justified to bombard us with repeated baseless legal threats, risible bragging about "exposing" us in a "documentary," and vile insults about people's fianceés that are so far beyond the pale of decency that any possible chance of recovering any level of respect for yourself is beyond hope. In other words, total pieces of shit like you, Gavin, are a thankfully rare breed, and I hope you live up to your promise now that this email has been posted and fuck. off. forever.

Couldn't that behavior actually discourage some people from joining your organization or watching future episodes of the show?

Tracie:Possibly...but on the other hand lots of people like the show for the same reasons you're complaining about it. Changing the game to gain viewers at the potential cost of losing those who enjoy the current format would be robbing Peter to pay Paul, to borrow a Bible metaphor. This is your view, your opinion. Others disagree and write in to praise the very behavior that apparently upsets you.

Martin: It is my sincerest hope that you have been dissuaded from all of those things, and from contacting us again in any form, and perhaps even from living anywhere on Earth other than a small rocky desert island where no one has to remember you exist. But I'll take the first two in a pinch.

Many times, the harsh treatment of a caller might be somewhat justified, if they begin yelling, swearing, or being disrespectful.

Tracie: I don't see how that works. If I think yelling and swearing are wrong, I don't see how it is suddenly justified with "two wrongs make a right"? That's unreasonable. It isn't like throwing punches, where I might actually have to be violent in response to violence for self-defense. Screaming at someone screaming at me has no benefit, is not required for self-preservation, and therefore has no "justification." But it does demonstrate the immature framework you're operating within.

Martin: Hold on, you mean, suddenly, now, Gavin is twigging to the very basic point that sometimes, it's the caller who's rude, and that it may happen that we treat them rudely in return? Which is what we've been explaining all along? Christ, I knew he was slow, but seriously. Still, Tracie's right. If a call is descending to the level of a screaming match, it's easier to just hang up.

But often enough, you begin yelling or insulting even when the caller has been totally calm, collected, and respectful the whole time.

Tracie: Really? You used Jeff's responses to callers regarding Hell as an example in prior notes. Is threatening someone calmly with "hell" moral? Is it kind? Is it "respectful"? Calling you human garbage that deserves to be tortured forever, is fine, if you don't yell it? I disagree.

You paint me as a fool,

Martin: Oh no, I paint you as much worse. And I just call 'em as I see 'em.

Tracie: No, you paint yourself as a fool. We just publicized it, because you said you were going to publicize it anyway, yourself.

and I partially deserve it,

Tracie: You own all your own words, fully, not partially. Other people control none of them.

Martin: Yes, like all moral hypocrites, you'll use a scorched-earth policy of utter condemnation against others, while cutting yourself plenty of slack. Have you considered a career at Fox News?

but I do have a mature message underneath all the BS.

Tracie: And when you get done defending childish codependency, I look forward to hearing to this more "mature message."

Martin: Because from our vantage point, we see BS underneath, and on top of, all the other BS.

My message is: With your show, you have a tremendous opportunity to open hearts and minds to the fallacies of religion.

Martin: Man, and here I thought we were a cooking show.

Tracie: Oh, that I know. I know because we get mail daily from people telling us we've helped them with exactly that.

Martin: Just from the last couple of days:

Don't know if this show is still on in the US, but I think it's great! It'sso rare to see people who have really thought about the whole god think. I'min Australia so I can only watch on Youtube..Thanks a lot for your time..Cheers, Peter C.

I don't make much right now in terms of income, but no doubt when I get my proverbial shit together I will be donating. You guys have changed my life in a way that seriously brings tears to my eyes. I hope you can continue to spread the real good news haha. I haven't gotten to call in but I will next week. Thank you so much...you'll never TOTALLY understand just how much you've helped me. (Jonathan Haggerty)

Please know that you are some of the most moral and virtuous people I've ever known, and also know that I'm not one to make bold statements like that disingenuously. Not only do you, unlike most, make moral behavior a top priority, you use reason to answer the tough moral questions that many others would prefer just to dismiss and ignore. You pursue truth, you deeply value intellectual honesty, you're willing to admit when you don't know something and also willing to admit when you were wrong, and you give me hope for the future and inspire me to pursue morality and virtue as you do. As disheartened as you surely must become from time to time when you see all that goes on around you, please never forget that your efforts are not in vain. You are heroes to many of us, and I thank you enormously for your service to humanity--you are champions of all the things that are most valuable in this world. (Logan Vanover)

In many ways, you squander that opportunity by resorting to insults, name calling, ridiculing callers or swearing at them, etc.

Tracie: And yet, we get mail from people saying we've helped them. Is it possible that some people respond to seeing stupidity called out openly and honestly, and other people prefer a less direct approach? This is why we have different personalities presenting on AETV, by the way. Different strokes and all. Let me assure you we do reach people. And if you think you'd rather see people reached in a different format, which is the same every time, may I suggest that rather than threaten to spend your time making documentaries to slander Internet strangers, you put your unique talents to work making your own show using your real name and location — like we do at AETV. Then you can do it how YOU prefer.

Atheists are supposed to be intelligent and mature, aren't we?

Martin: It would be nice to think so, which makes your situation all the more tragic.

Tracie: I looked up "atheist" in the dictionary, and it says nothing of the kind. So, I don't know where you got that these are atheist attributes.

When you exhibit certain behaviors on the show, you appear immature, sometimes petty even.

Martin: And you have frankly lost any chance that I would have any respect for or interest in your opinion of my behavior or anyone else's, since your own has been unforgivable.

Tracie: Your opinion. You're entitled to it. Others disagree and write to tell us the opposite of what you're saying.

You have a responsibility to your viewers that I believe you take too lightly, or not at all.

Martin: And what you believe is both provably wrong, as it's taken from a gross misrepresentation of how we actually conduct the show, and immaterial, as you've demonstrated yourself and your opinions to be unworthy of respect. Really, you could have handled all this so much better.

Tracie: And other viewers, again, disagree with you. So why should we disregard their input and go only with yours?

People aren't just calling in, unprompted. You are inviting them to call.

Tracie: Yes, we get that. And they make a decision to call or not. Are they going to say something stupid or not? It's up to them.

You state that you want productive discussion.

Tracie: Right: don't call up to talk about your beliefs and then say you've no intention of defending them. You'll be asked "why the fuck did you call, then?" Be prepared. Don't call up and say you think all humans are such scum they deserve to be tortured forever; you'll be told you're a dehumanizing, evil person. Be prepared. But even if you're not bright, if you try to be kind and honest, you'll get a good reception almost 100 percent of the time on AETV, I can promise you.

The way you frame everything when asking viewers to call in implies that some level of respect and decency will be observed during the conversation.

Martin: A concept you don't seem to grasp works both ways.

Tracie: And "some level" is. If your claim is that we are a free-for-all and exercise no judgment regarding who gets what sort of response, I beg to differ. We're not perfect, and mistakes are made, but for the most part, we talk to people who are interested in talking openly and honestly, and who can reason, and we drop those who can't. And those who are dishonest or disrespectful (and bringing up hell IS disrespectful) get a boot out the door on occasion, it's true.

When you begin angrily swearing and insulting people, you have contradicted the implications you made when you asked people to call in.

Martin: Oh, you mean like when I call you a miserable piece of shit fucktool and cordially invite you to go blow a charging buffalo? Yeah, I guess, but sometimes it just feels so right.

Tracie: Unless you can show me where someone was honest and reasonable and respectful and a host just went ballistic on him/her, I beg to differ. Again, "calmly" telling Jeff he's utterly vile is hardly "respectful."

You don't only do this with theists, though. Occasionally you also belittle and denigrate a non believer.

Tracie: That's because we're equal-opportunity when a caller is an idiot. We're examining their beliefs and ideas and reasons. If they suck, they suck. We're not trying to be biased against theists with regard to being stupid. Any idiot who calls, and insists on being an idiot, can expect to be branded an idiot. If they're not called out for it, they've had a lucky call.

Martin: Indeed, it would be the nadir of hypocrisy for us to let atheists (like Charlie the Homophobe) get a pass saying stupid and contemptible things while excoriating theists for it. We don't do that.

Surely you can see how that kind of behavior can be counterproductive, and how it can potentially cast your organization in a bad light.

Martin: Except we don't engage in that behavior to the degree you're whining about, and we know already that our group is in anything but a bad light. So your concerns can be dismissed.

Tracie: What I see is that you think this. And you're not the only one who thinks this. But we get a lot more letters from viewers who enjoy the format than ones like yours, which are only very occasional (and almost always, as this one, defending their position by defending sick, codependent attitudes as something we should all bend over to accommodate.) I disagree with that attitude.

I also believe it discourages people (particularly believers) from calling in at all.

Tracie: And yet they call. And they write. And they post at our blog.

Martin: Yup, no decrease in any of that traffic. Even a little bit.

There are many people who might think about calling in, but decide not to once they observe you screaming and swearing at someone on the air.

Tracie: Only if they don't grasp what inspired the rant. And if they can't decipher that, then they're probably not reasonable. We're not psychotics at AETV. We use discernment. Even the most volatile hosts on their most angry days, still explain why they're ranting as they rant. If I can't pay attention to the substance, because I'm style-obsessed, then I shouldn't call AETV, because AETV wants substance. Style doesn't matter. As I said, calmly calling me "reprobate" as one threatens me with Hell is not "respectful," just because it's stylistically calm. The substance is still disgusting and vulgar. I'm not really impressed with the calm delivery.

Ask yourself, do you really think such behavior is going to get you more calls from believers, or fewer?

Tracie: I don't know...do you? If so, how? Again, I suggest you use your real name and location and start your own show doing it your way, and show us how it should be done. Prove your point. Test your assertion. If you think you can build a better mouse trap, nobody at AETV is stopping you.

Martin: Again, we didn't start this show last fucking week, assclown. (Oops, naughty Martin is swearing again! Doesn't he know how much that drives people away?) We've been doing it since 1997. And it has only gotten bigger, and bigger, and bigger. So unless you can show us we've been suffering some drastic drop-off of our viewership simply because Jeff calls some guy an idiot for threatening us with the imaginary wrath of an imaginary magic pixie in the sky, I see no reason to concern myself with this "crisis" that exists only in the swirling vortex of confusion between your ears.

This particular email lays out my concerns adequately. If you are truly interested in representing me honestly in your posts to facebook and the blog, I ask that you post this email as well, in a new and separate post.

Tracie: Done.

Martin: ...and dusted.

If you can do that much for me, you will never hear from me again.

Martin: Hope springs eternal.

Tracie: As the full text of your message was included above, I hope you are a man of your word. I expect no one at AETV to every hear from you again. And at this point, if you contact TAE, we have no obligation to reply, as you will have demonstrated that your commitment meant nothing and was simply a hollow, false promise.

I guess if you don't, I can only conclude that you want to spin things once again by leaving out the real message I've been trying to get across. This message is exactly what I've been trying to say all along.

Martin: (sarcastic look) Oh really? Then what, pray tell, were all the threats of lawsuits and exposés, libelous remarks about financial malfeasance, and unconscionable personal insults — all of which we reproduced in full without any alterations of any kind — in aid of? I fancy you think you were "teaching us a lesson" of some kind, when in fact you were literally demolishing your reputation online as thoroughly as any one human being could hope. Really, what would a prospective employer have to say about someone who comes so thoroughly unhinged over views that differ from his own? The degree to which you've damaged yourself in this whole series of exchanges is possibly considerable. But again, we didn't make you do it. Your own choices in life are what come back to haunt you.

Tracie: Good. Then you've made your statement publicly via AETV. I hope that satisfies you, as you said it would. Again, as I included your full text in this response, I now declare the right to ignore all your future letters, which you have promised not to write (but I doubt you'll hold to your word on that; call me a pessimist). And another EMOTIONAL MANIPULATION ATTEMPT FLAG: Your final attempt at such, again a sign of your codependent nature, is to play what is generally known as "chicken." Basically like a kid in a school yard saying "if you don't do X, you're chicken." Just to confirm, I didn't post your letter in order to avoid your assessment of me as someone who only wants to "spin" things. Frankly, you're an idiot, and I don't know who you are, wouldn't recognize you on a street in broad daylight. So you're literally nothing in my world. But, your stupidity merits a good calling out and a breakdown, a demonstration of how stupid is as stupid does. Also, I'm sick of your flood of ugly, pointless, vile garbage in the AETV in-box, and if posting this latest bit of trash will end your disturbed stream of consciousness insanity to AETV, as you promised it would (but we'll see if you abide by your own promises, right?), it's totally, totally worth it. I hope you will keep your word and never contact anyone at AETV again.

I find this gob-smacking. Assuming this guy isn't literally mentally ill... he's just plain nuts in the colloquial sense.

TAE as a bubbling cauldron of hate and calumny? Say WHAT? Has this jabroni* ever been in a real, face-to-face argument in his life?

Never mind. Based on his posts, I'm thinking this fellow's social exposure and aptitude rank somewhere between "owning a dozen WoW accounts" and clinically diagnosed sociopath. I withdraw the question.

Could I put in a word about first amendment rights here? I hope it isn't redundant.

There is no "right to free speech" in the U.S. The first amendment states that CONGRESS shall not pass laws limiting free speech - that's it. It has nothing to do with what transpires between you and some caller/emailer to your show.

I made it about half way down and couldn't read it anymore..... wow.... is all I can really say. This is the first I am hearing of this gavin (and the last)... but I think martin had it at fucktool lol.

Is it wrong that I really enjoyed reading this post? Pure joy. If you are reading this Gavin I am someone who has personally benefited from AETV. I spent years in quiet torment trying to come to terms with my crissis of faith. It was the reasoning and care that the hosts used week in and week out that got me through the end of my torment. I give Matt credit in part for my conversion and had the chance last week to shake his hand and personally thank him. At the risk of sounding like a loon it was a satisying moment for me. You should thank everyone who has had an active role in the ACA over the years as I am sure many people have a similar experience as my own.

I like to take this opportunity to admit that I was a co-conspirator to the acts of lewdness with bovines involving Jeff Dee. I don't make excuses. It was wrong. However, the statute of limitations has run out and those cows were slaughtered years ago anyway.

You guys are extremely patient, to take even this much time to respond to this prick's emails, etc. I admire you for it. If I had been in your shoes, after the abuse began I would just say, "Go fuck yourself" and ignore him from that moment on.

As someone who has been suffering from depression for an age, and a large part of that caused by 'verbal means', I really want to find this guy and kick his arse.

Words can cause great pain. Definitely. If, for example, in your formative years, all your interaction with your peers involves being mercilessly made fun of (for whatever reason, but let's just say something that was neither deserving of mockery nor could be controlled), or else being completely isolated from everyone else, with fuck all support from home or anywhere else, then your life is going to be unequivocally changed, and changed for the worse.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg to what I and some other people find themselves going through as a result of words, and words alone. Yeah - it sucks, and is disgraceful behaviour from the people that do it. Often (at best) it leaves people scared to engage in any social activity whatsoever. And whatever the results, it's really hard work to dig yourself out of the situation you're in, and turn your life around.

How dare this arsehole somehow try to conflate the crap I went through with a 2 minute fucking phone call with someone the caller decided to phone, and someone they'll never come in contact with again... that left them feeling slightly mocked. Gavin - you are a vile human being.

Gavin,i am sure it has become apparent to you by now that you were unwise when embarking on your correspondence with the show.I suggest that you draw a line under the matter and resolve to think through the possible consequences of your actions in the future.

From Gavin on the TAE Facebook page: "...I am finding it a much more daunting task than I had anticipated, to delve through hundreds of... hours of television footage to find sections that might illustrate my point."

Which should demonstrate to Gavin exactly how unmerited his point actually is. If we're _that_ abusive--why should anyone have to sift through "hundreds of hours" of footage to find examples? We do, generally, several calls per show...how hard can it be to find us abusing callers--if we're so prolific at it and it's such a huge problem with TAE?

If you do, please don't mention rain. I have strong feelings on the matter.And don't mention sun either (my brother hates it), or wind (my grandmother dislikes it), or clouds (my uncle will start worrying about chemtrails), or thunder (my father has a trauma about that from childhood), or the colour of the sky (my friend will torment us all with discussions of the subjectivity of colour), or snow (it reminds people of christmas, which can be depressing) and if you ever bring up temperature in any way, my cousin will have a fit. Out of consideration for the feelings of others, please avoid these topics.

Yes, verbal abuse can do severe and lasting harm. Just take it from me. Until about a year ago I spent nearly a decade fighting against overwhelming, life destroying, absolutely CRUSHING depression. I self medicated, I nearly took my own life, I was generally just a miserable human being. And you know what caused this? Verbal and emotional abuse inflicted by militaristic, fundamentalist Christian parents who felt that homeschooling me on a Christian curriculum while keeping me completely socially isolated from the outside world was preferable to the risk that I might learn about evolution and lose my faith. This absolutely destroyed my ability to relate to people on a human level and ground my self esteem to dust. And when I finally did leave my parents' church I grasped in vain at vague spiritual concepts while trying to come to terms with my situation, and all that did was reinforce my perception that I was unworthy of happiness, because I couldn't find the right god or enlightening spiritual principal to elevate myself from the pitiful state of being 'simply human'. And you know what changed all that? THIS SHOW. Because when I found it on youtube I realized, for the first time, that the failing WASN'T MINE. It wasn't that I was too lost to find the right way, the truth is that I had a delusion with massive psychological consequences FORCED on me as a child. Once I started to realize that my not feeling the love of god had nothing to do with my unworthiness, and everything to do with the overwhelming probability that no such being EXISTS, I was able to FINALLY begin the process of rebuilding myself, learning to love the BEAUTY and WONDER of being 'simply human'. The more heated and confrontational calls were instrumental in this, because I had never seen anyone actually speak HONESTLY to those who held irrational supernatural beliefs. It helped me realize that stupidity should be called just that, because STUPIDITY has consequences. So if Gavin really thinks that verbal and emotional abuse is a serious problem (and I agree), then maybe he should redirect his masterful knowledge of the nuances of tone towards those who tell children, like the child I once was, that they are pitiful sinners who deserve eternal torment. Everyone at the show, you keep doing what you've been doing, and never forget that there are people like me who have had their lives irreversibly altered for the better because you are WILLING TO BE HONEST, even if it might make someone uncomfortable. You have my gratitude.

Marshall: Your letter choked me up. I'm glad you're no longer blaming yourself. And I think of all the kids still in situations like you describe.

"Gavin" had posted on the TAE page that s/he did what s/he did because s/he "cared how people are treated." And I about fell out of my chair. I do what _I_ do because _I_ care how people are treated. And I was raised in a church where what you describe was not unusual at all.

After becoming an atheist, I now read things about gays in Uganda, kids in Nigeria, and see the cause to combat the "Mother Teresa" propaganda machine battled by Hemley Gonzales--who claims to have seen abuses at these "hospices" and now tries to make it better. I see people being killed, their rights being stripped, and this person, of all the dehumanizing abuses on the planet, would expect anyone to believe that his/her instant raging tirade against a small, public Internet program that said "f*ck" or "stupid" on the air is out of some noble desire to improve how "people are treated" in the world? Honestly--this was the area s/he chose to start his/her mission to improve the world? This is where s/he felt his/her energy combating human abuse was best applied? I call Shenanigans on that, again. What a cellophane lie that was. And how insulting that s/he would expect anyone to buy for a second that this isn't some personal crap (did we diss him/her on the phone? did we disagree in an e-mail? Get honest), but instead a serious and noble calling to aid humanity?

It would be like claiming you'd like to mount a mission to ensure better nutrition on the globe, and ignoring all the starving children in slums in third-world nations to focus instead on one child in an affluent neighborhood in the U.S. eating a lollipop, to scream and rant and get all bothered that it has too much sugar and low nutrient value. That's your mission? Seriously? No matter how stupid any of the communication has been, nobody is THAT stupid. This is downright dishonesty that's being witnessed--not mere stupidity. This person was never on a mission to improve the treatment of human beings. And everyone clearly saw that throughout. It was a ruse, and nobody will ever really know what the true motivation was. But at this point, it's moot and I don't want to know. I'm just glad it's done.

*gasp* how dare you offend the Berry God by eating a berry?!?!?!?! For shame! For that you are condemned to Berry Hell, which means you get a berry seed stuck in your teeth. And you deserve it, heathen!

/jk :P

(Although clearly the corn-on-the-cob god is much more vengeful than the berry god, as a side note)

Guys, beating up on raving dickheads is fun! You all should be popping popcorn. In any case, Gavin is done and done. It's been ages since we've had one as bad as him, and hopefully it won't happen again in a hurry. (And I resolve to be out that day.)

Dear Wired: There's a thing called "feel free to not read posts you believe are a waste of time." It's an option especially suited to people who aren't interested in a particular discussion and think it's a waste of time. It would even have saved you the time wasted commenting on how this whole thing is a waste of time.

Daemon: Not only that, but I had posted this to FB today in response to someone talking about the complaints toward TAE, as it's free-service provided by ACA...

What's funny is someone commented at the blog article that they thought the post was a waste of time. What I found ironic was three fold: (1) they spent time commenting that they're not interested in the post and why did we even post it? When I go to blogs I frequent, if the topic isn't of interest to me, I check back in a few days to see what the new post is. I don't comment that I don't care about THIS post--especially when there are already comments posted from others who clearly do see value in the article and ARE commenting on it and giving input and feedback. That's idiotic.

(2) In this case the question of why we'd continue on with a troll is interesting because ultimately we did manage to get a raging idiot to at least calm down sufficiently to post a civil explanation of his point. And to me, that's an accomplishment. But mainly (3) I felt personally it was important to address the "style" over "substance" question--because it comes up quite a lot with TAE and a minority of viewers who have issues with some of the hosts' deliveries.

While there is always room for improvement, and viewers can have good ideas for improvement--it's interesting to me when a fan doesn't just say "I'd like to see more X or less Y," but writes to, as you note--really issue a scathing complaint about how vehemently they hate X or that we don't offer Y--basically wondering why we aren't building the show based on their individual image of what it should be. What makes it ironic is that the person who posted in comments at the blog is doing the SAME thing. He's asking WHY we would even write about X--when clearly there are other people at the blog that are interested in it. And in the same way, Gavin was asking why we would respond to callers in X-fashion--not considering that he may be one opinion among many. Gavin's complaint that we're too hard on callers is not unique (although his grotesque way of conflating it with the Fred Phelps issue and his disturbing delivery were certainly unique)--but it's the minority opinion.

For every letter we get saying we're too hard, we get half a dozen telling us we're right on the money or that we're too soft, even. We can't please everyone--even though generally the people who complain will add that they like hosts X and Y, but not A and B. And they miss that we're providing them a perspective they relate to, AND also catering to people who may respond better to a different perspective--which of course is one they don't personally appreciate. But rather than say "They're supplying a broad range of attitudes from which I can watch the ones I like best and skip those I don't like," they seem to think we should ONLY supply what THEY like--and all those who like something different are wrong in some way, not just appreciative of a different perspective. They're a very arrogant breed.

And perhaps the commenter at the blog thinks the post is a waste of time because he shares the same myopic view--that if X doesn't appeal to him or offer him anything, it has no value. Sadly, this would have value to him, because if he'd get the "substance" of it and stop focusing on Gavin's style--he'd see why Gavin is wrong, and where he is ALSO going just as wrong.

Personally, I wouldn't have given him so much space, but it is sometimes interesting to see to what depths people can sink. Frankly, the obviously untrue comments he made about you guys, and the ones he made about someones wife, pissed me off pretty bad, and I don't even know you guys.

I know many ppl here r playing it for laughs, but I hope you guys sue his twisted pampers off!

Now that I have read all of that, I still don’t think I have any idea what this person’s position is. TAE hosts are too mean? Zhe also spend a lot of time arguing that the First Amendment is not an excuse to treat people poorly, but I find it hard to believe anyone on the show would make such an outrageous claim.

The only reason I think Gavin got any attention at all was for spewing intensely insulting hate mail, and then has the gall to argue against being uncivil on the talk show, the examples of which are never presented.

I am usually of the opinion that the best punishment for tone trolls is ignoring them. If not for all the threats and insults, what does Gavin have worth discussing at all?

“Only a child would defend screaming and swearing and belittling someone by wrapping it in the Constitution. Sure, it is OK to do it, under law but you seem to think that something legal is also MORALLY acceptable.”

Are you single, Martin? Can I buy you a drink?Tracie... thankyou for REDEFINING "volunteer" to include the description "unequivocal patience"

Even for a good cause, I'm not sure I would have gone to such great lengths to spread this Gavin's flesh across the court, as you have. Even if i was drinking and having a REALLY good time doing it, it wouldn't have come out as flawless as this... BRAVO

Matt... pat these two on the back for a job well done.Martin... how bout that drink? Got any extra cash to fly a boy from boston down to el arroyo's?

Is this guy a cat or some other non-verbal lifeform?I know that style is a lot more important than substance when talking to such creatures, I myself have sung some particularly abusive, but lovingly rendered, songs to cats in my time, but that doesn't really work when talking to humans.You can express love in a way that sounds vicious and hateful, and you can express hatred in a way that sounds loving. If you yell "I love you" with foam on your lips and rage in your eyes, ok... there might be issues there, but at least you really feel it... but say "you're going to hell" in calm tones, with a smile on your lips, love in your eyes, well you're just fucked in the head and it seems more immoral said that way than it would if it was screamed.. rrrgh.Anyway, you pretty much said all that in less words... so...

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PLEASE NOTE: The Atheist Experience has moved to a new location, and this blog is now closed to comments. To participate in future discussions, please visit http://www.freethoughtblogs.com/axp.The Atheist Experience is a weekly live call-in television show sponsored by the Atheist Community of Austin. This independently-run blog (not sponsored by the ACA) features contributions from current and former hosts and co-hosts of the show.