I don't know if someone posted something about this but I'll just say it anyway. How is it that Eoks actually killed the troopers. I mean, these trained men get killed by some primitive species. How is it that they died by some teddy bears with clubs and rocks, their armor could withstand that. I know I'v heard that rocks thrown fast or at point blank could hurt or even kill, but these guys were whereing armor! What's up with that! lmk what you guys think.

Plus, the empire didn't spend too much on the armour to be honest. Stormie armour was more mass-produced than clone armour and made of cheap duraplast. Also, the ewoks defeating the stormies was a symbolism for George in ROTJ. He was trying to convey the message that you could be victorious without advanced technology. the Ewoks were really good at guerilla tactics.

I tend to look at the assault on the bunker on Endor's moon as being very believable really. They even show physically how the "damage" occured.

Like the opening "volley" from the Woks showed that the arrows were hitting some chinks in the armor... The armpit, crotch, etc... There's weaknesses there for arrows to have an impact, especially if the Woks are accurate. Native Americans were NOTORIOUSLY accurate with their bows, some capable of a throat shot from horseback, so there's some possibilities there with projectile weapons.

Also note that when the EMpire is "stung" they bite back right away and the Ewoks show they have weaknesses too... They're uncoordinated somewhat, the blaster weapons show their damage tremendously... The Ewoks were maybe feining the weakness somewhat to draw the walkers out to their traps (smart move on the Ewoks part if this is the case), but the Empire definitely had reason to fear the Ewoks. They were seemingly outnumbered tremendously too, and surrounded, which no matter how technologically inferior, that's a bad situation to be in (again citing Native American battles with whites, such as the Battle of Little Big Horn, where whites were tremendously outnumbered and outclassed by the natives).

As far as melee weapons and armor... I said this once at another forum about this discussion, but basically my comment was to throw a helmet on, like a motorcycle helmet, and let someone smash you on the head with a stone axe or some similar weapon.

I bet you are at least dazed, if not actually having your skull broken open to some extent and go unconcious. It's amazing how easily a blunt object can incapacitate a person, much less a flurry of many blunt objects thumping someone (even armored) in the body/head.

In the Middle-Ages, as mail armor was phased out for plate armor, the plate armor had to be overcome. Arrows didn't puncture it well except at the joints... blades glanced off it generally, so the blade was actually not so much for puncturing as it was for crushing. Thus weapons like maces and cudgels became much more prized. The pike/pole-arm would become one of the most devastating weapons to knights because it featured usually all the tools needed to open those living tin-cans. A hook to dismount the knight, a "spear" tip to puncture at chinks in the armor, and an axe-blade to crush/chop at the armor.

In general though, "crushing" bone became more important than getting through that armor, and I think that would applie to the Stormtrooper armor.

Stormtrooper is a term coined during World War I actually (for those curious). The STormtrooper was actually an elite trooper trained to quickly attack an enemy emplacement, take over, and hold it till reinforcements arrive. They were the original "Blitzkrieg" really. They were specially trained, had special gear (some homemade actually), and were skilled in close-quarters combat since they were basically in trenches fighting with the enemy. They were also known as "trench raiders". During WW1 they had armor chest plates for that close-quarters battling and helmets of course, but these things didn't stop bullets or all forms of hand weapons.

The Stormtroopers DID carry cudgels though, used their spade as a weapon, carried trench knives, and usually a handgun over a rifle... They meant to crush and incapacitate enemies quickly, as did their enemies intend to do to them, and a spade smashed off that chest armor probably would at least take the wind out of the guy... Or smashed over the helmet or whatnot.

Anyway, long-winded post there. The end result is that armor is good for protection against glancing blows from melee weapons, a glancing shot perhaps from a blaster, but in the end it really doesn't offer you a ton of protection. It's like Kevlar for our troops in the field today, or up-armor kits for our military vehicles. They MAY save a life, but there's no way they'll always (or at times even often depending on weapons and circumstances) protect the wearer or vehicle. It's not possible (yet) really.

Very well thought out post Jesse. I totally agree with everything you said.

I think in addition to be outnumbered and surrounded, the Empire vastly underestimated the Ewoks. And that is one of the biggest mistakes any military commander can make.

Going back to Jesse's example of Little Big Horn, Custer and the 7th Cav. were not only outmanned and surrounded, but they underestimated the Native Americans. I'll give some of you guys a little refresher on Little Big Horn, in case your history is a bit rusty. The Native Americans had been put onto their reservation in the Dakotas a few years prior to the battle of Little Big horn. White settlers began moving into the land in the Dakotas that was supposedly for the Natives. The Sioux took offense to that and under the leadership of Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull, a large army of warriors, about 2500, left the reservation. The US Government told them to go back but the Sioux refused. Custer and the 7th Cav. were sent in to drive them back by force. And here is where they really screwed up. Custer and the US brass thought that the Natives would be scared of the army, and would return to the reservation as soon as they saw them. And they thought if they did have to fight they had a big technological advantage with their weapons (which they did) and as soon as they started firing the Natives would run away in fear. They of course didn't and they all stayed and fought killing Custer and all of his men.

And there are countless other examples in which someone has underestimated their enemy and get their ass kicked as a result. Like Japan, they expected us to give up after Pearl Harbor. They though it would completely discourage us as a Nation and take away our will to fight. Of course it ha the opposite effect and launched us into WWII. After WWII the US was the only remaining world power that hadn't been devastated by war. We became the world's Superpower. The Soviet Union quickly became the only other superpower, because Russians are crazy like that. And Through out the world the smaller nations began to ally with either the US or the USSR. Then came Vietnam. The Vietnamese had been a colony of France for years and in WWII fought on the side of the Allies against Japan. After the war they wanted their independence from France, who was reluctant to give it them. Then after several years of fighting the French pulled out (go figure ) and the US sent in military advisors. The Vietnamese were leaning towards communism as many developing nations did, because communism was more efficient and was easier for a developing state than democracy. The US though that if they sent in their forces they would easily be able to subdue the outgunned Vietnamese who were tired from years of war. They were very wrong. The Vietnamese, many of whom were still using WWII era weapons, eventually drove the US out of Vietnam. Their guerilla tactics were instrumental in their victory.

There are many parallels to the Empire vs. Ewoks that can be drawn from this. Like the Vietnamese, the Ewoks were expert guerilla warriors. The Empire thought like the US, at Little Big Horn, that the Ewoks would be scared when the saw the Stormtroopers and would run as soon as they were fired upon. The Empire also felt that their technological advances over the Ewoks made them invincible and as a result saw the Ewoks primitive and didn't feel they were a threat.

As a result I think it is very plausible that the Ewoks beat the Empire. When you take in to account what Jesse said, the Ewok's weapons didn't have to penetrate they armor. All they had to do was break bones through the thin armor. The ewoks were able to down several AT-STs because they were able to find the weaknesses of the walker, its balance and it's relatively thin armor. I'm blabbering though, so I'll stop.

The only reason the Ewoks and Rebels defeated the Empire was so GL could show that good triumphs over bad. In a real battle, the Empire would totally slaughter the Rebels and Ewoks.

Did you read the last two posts?

If the Empire knew what they were doing then yes they could have won, but the whole good vs. evil metaphor you used can be traced back through history, and you can see countless examples of where the little guy has beaten the big bad "invincible" bad guys.

The only reason the Ewoks and Rebels defeated the Empire was so GL could show that good triumphs over bad. In a real battle, the Empire would totally slaughter the Rebels and Ewoks.

Did you read the last two posts?

If the Empire knew what they were doing then yes they could have won, but the whole good vs. evil metaphor you used can be traced back through history, and you can see countless examples of where the little guy has beaten the big bad "invincible" bad guys.

In a real battle, the Empire would totally slaughter the Rebels and Ewoks.

It would seem that way on paper, but as the guys have already pointed out (expertly, I might add), what should happen isn't always the case in war.

The Battle of Endor and the Assault on the Second Death Star were both military upsets, as in both cases the Rebellion was outnumbered and outgunned. What blows me away is that the attack on the first Death Star was an even bigger upset, but I don‘t see many threads going after that one...

Personally, I think the battle above Endor was more of an upset than the battle on Endor, but for some reason people seem to look at the Ewok's victorious surprise attack on the Bunker garrison as more unbelievable than the Rebel's victorious (but expected) attack on the operational Death Star (and accompanying Imperial Fleet - including the pride of the Imperial Navy, the Executor).

As far as Ewoks vs. Empire goes…

The Ewoks outnumbered the Imperials and had the home-team advantage matched with guerrilla tactics. This alone is the main reason why the Vietcong gave American forces so much trouble in Vietnam. Pay close enough attention (thank god for DVD), and you’ll see that more often than not, the Imperials were ambushed and surrounded.

The Ewoks are natural born hunters, like the American Natives, Ewoks are deadly accurate with the bow (for the most part - there are a few Woks that prove to be lovers and not killers - Wicket, for example) because naturally Ewoks have to be efficient hunters (or trappers) in order to survive.

Quote

I mean, these trained men get killed by some primitive species.

Ironic… this is the exact attitude that Whites held towards the Natives… even after Little Big Horn. The Ewoks, like the Natives, may be primitive, but they’re skilled warriors, and they don’t fight fair.

Quote

[…]Ewoks show they have weaknesses too... They're uncoordinated somewhat, the blaster weapons show their damage tremendously... The Ewoks were maybe feigning the weakness somewhat to draw the walkers out to their traps[…]

I’ve always believed that the Ewoks’ apparent ‘un-coordination’ was mostly feigned - in several scenes you’ll see a pair of storm troopers chasing a group of fleeing Ewoks - only to be ambushed and hit from all sides.

I like this topic. Let’s get crazy and discuss exactly where the Imperials went wrong…

In my opinion, the Imperials’ should have blown back the tree-line when they first constructed the backdoor… while the backdoor was supposed to be secret, having the woods so close and leaving the main ridge intact (where the Ewok archers picked off the unarmored Officers) was a terrible mistake on the Empire‘s part. Take a look at the scene where Solo and his squad are reunited with the already captured Rebel foot soldiers - the Imperials in the back rows have their backs against the brush… even C3PO could sneak up on these guys!

The Ewoks are literally right on top of the Imperials when they spring their attack… Archers on the ridge facing the backdoor pick off a handful of the officers, a swarm of axe, spear, and club wielding Ewoks hit the Imperials from the sides, and probably most importantly, the Rebel soldiers (and a wookie!) begin to rip apart the unit from the inside with hand-to-hand combat.

The Imperial force is completely engulfed at this point - the bulk of the storm troopers and biker scouts, mostly without any officers, end up scattering into the woods (perhaps moving in the general direction of the front door, in an attempt to link up with a nearby garrison), where they are met with brutal resistance… Along a trail (retreat or blind attack?) Imperials are bombarded with stones (sling-shot, tossed, dropped from gliders, and catapulted), and arrows rain down on them from all directions… Imagine all hell.

In the end, the Imperials are completely routed, presumably the entire garrison force is slaughtered, and the rest is history - Solo calls out the remaining Imperials in the bunker, and the regrouped Ewoks have won the day…

In a real battle, the Empire would totally slaughter the Rebels and Ewoks.

It would seem that way on paper, but as the guys have already pointed out (expertly, I might add), what should happen isn't always the case in war.

The Battle of Endor and the Assault on the Second Death Star were both military upsets, as in both cases the Rebellion was outnumbered and outgunned. What blows me away is that the attack on the first Death Star was an even bigger upset, but I don‘t see many threads going after that one...

Personally, I think the battle above Endor was more of an upset than the battle on Endor, but for some reason people seem to look at the Ewok's victorious surprise attack on the Bunker garrison as more unbelievable than the Rebel's victorious (but expected) attack on the operational Death Star (and accompanying Imperial Fleet - including the pride of the Imperial Navy, the Executor).

As far as Ewoks vs. Empire goes…

The Ewoks outnumbered the Imperials and had the home-team advantage matched with guerrilla tactics. This alone is the main reason why the Vietcong gave American forces so much trouble in Vietnam. Pay close enough attention (thank god for DVD), and you’ll see that more often than not, the Imperials were ambushed and surrounded.

The Ewoks are natural born hunters, like the American Natives, Ewoks are deadly accurate with the bow (for the most part - there are a few Woks that prove to be lovers and not killers - Wicket, for example) because naturally Ewoks have to be efficient hunters (or trappers) in order to survive.

Quote

I mean, these trained men get killed by some primitive species.

Ironic… this is the exact attitude that Whites held towards the Natives… even after Little Big Horn. The Ewoks, like the Natives, may be primitive, but they’re skilled warriors, and they don’t fight fair.

Quote

[…]Ewoks show they have weaknesses too... They're uncoordinated somewhat, the blaster weapons show their damage tremendously... The Ewoks were maybe feigning the weakness somewhat to draw the walkers out to their traps[…]

I’ve always believed that the Ewoks’ apparent ‘un-coordination’ was mostly feigned - in several scenes you’ll see a pair of storm troopers chasing a group of fleeing Ewoks - only to be ambushed and hit from all sides.

I like this topic. Let’s get crazy and discuss exactly where the Imperials went wrong…

In my opinion, the Imperials’ should have blown back the tree-line when they first constructed the backdoor… while the backdoor was supposed to be secret, having the woods so close and leaving the main ridge intact (where the Ewok archers picked off the unarmored Officers) was a terrible mistake on the Empire‘s part. Take a look at the scene where Solo and his squad are reunited with the already captured Rebel foot soldiers - the Imperials in the back rows have their backs against the brush… even C3PO could sneak up on these guys!

The Ewoks are literally right on top of the Imperials when they spring their attack… Archers on the ridge facing the backdoor pick off a handful of the officers, a swarm of axe, spear, and club wielding Ewoks hit the Imperials from the sides, and probably most importantly, the Rebel soldiers (and a wookie!) begin to rip apart the unit from the inside with hand-to-hand combat.

The Imperial force is completely engulfed at this point - the bulk of the storm troopers and biker scouts, mostly without any officers, end up scattering into the woods (perhaps moving in the general direction of the front door, in an attempt to link up with a nearby garrison), where they are met with brutal resistance… Along a trail (retreat or blind attack?) Imperials are bombarded with stones (sling-shot, tossed, dropped from gliders, and catapulted), and arrows rain down on them from all directions… Imagine all hell.

In the end, the Imperials are completely routed, presumably the entire garrison force is slaughtered, and the rest is history - Solo calls out the remaining Imperials in the bunker, and the regrouped Ewoks have won the day…

Plus it is a PG film and GL did not want to show what the savage Ewoks do to the poor stormtroopers AFTER they have knocked them out or killed. I shudder to think of it when we see those sick, badass ewoks playing with the helmets as musical instruments. No, these little warriors are far to savage for a PG audience

I do agree that things that should happen in war dont always........Time for One Of Joey's old ww2 storys...........this time the topic is ...D-Day....

When the allies invaded france it went smooth at most of the invasion sites (smooth meaning 400-500 dead or wounded) well really all but one....Omaha Beach....over 2,000 soldiers got killed there.(including 2 of my grandfathers friends) But we still pulled through.Using milartary logic the Germans should of won...they had the high ground, the shelter,and the snipers,mortars and MGs.The US soldiers pulled together and overcame that obstacle and blew a hole in the germans defence and it was uphill for the allies from that point on...

The Ewoks logicly would have lost but they pulled together and usednumbers and determaintion over sheer power.