Anti-Semitismhttps://scienceblogs.com/
enTrump Against the Worldhttps://scienceblogs.com/seed/2017/02/06/trump-against-the-world
<span>Trump Against the World</span>
<div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Donald Trump continues his blitz to fulfill all his campaign promises at once, leaving snowflakes aghast and deplorables cheering for the proto-fascism on parade at The White House. On International Holocaust Remembrance Day, Trump issued a statement "in the name of the perished" <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2017/01/30/holocaust-denial-from-the-white-house/">without any reference to Jews or anti-semitism</a>, and while his Chief of Staff spun this omission a sign of inclusivity, Mark Hoofnagle writes on Denialism Blog that "this is part of a long history of Holocaust denial, in which the experience, memory, and truth of Jewish survivors and victims is diminished and denied." As Orac <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2017/01/31/holocaust-denial-from-the-white-house-on-international-holocaust-remembrance-day/">writes on Respectful Insolence</a>, "whatever the source of Hitler’s antisemitism, it was one of the animating forces of Nazi-ism, arguably <em>the</em> animating force."</p>
<p>Meanwhile, Greg Laden writes that the U.S. finds itself in a very dangerous situation, wherein income inequality has reached a breaking point and our <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2017/01/30/the-norms-of-society-and-presidential-executive-orders/">elected officials no longer play by the rules</a>. Greg says "we now have a man who by all indications intends to dictate, not lead, dictate not rule, dictate not represent." Since his inauguration Trump has not only closed U.S. borders to many foreigners, he has also hobbled public health programs around the world by prohibiting foreign organizations that receive U.S. aid from performing or providing information about abortions. Ironically, as Liz Borkowski writes on The Pump Handle, this rule only serves to <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/thepumphandle/2017/01/30/a-destructive-executive-action-for-global-health/">increase the rate of abortions worldwide</a>, and also increases the risk posed by global threats such as Ebola. Trump's actions reveal one promise he has failed to keep: that he would be a president for <em>all</em> Americans.</p>
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<span><a title="View user profile." href="https://scienceblogs.com/author/milhayser" lang="" about="https://scienceblogs.com/author/milhayser" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">milhayser</a></span>
<span>Mon, 02/06/2017 - 09:14</span>
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<section></section><ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/login?destination=/seed/2017/02/06/trump-against-the-world%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul>Mon, 06 Feb 2017 14:14:37 +0000milhayser69281 at https://scienceblogs.comAn antivaccine activist explains how she uses Facebook reporting algorithms to harass and silence pro-science bloggershttps://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/04/01/an-antivaccine-activists-explains-how-she-uses-facebook-reporting-algorithms-to-harass-and-silence-pro-science-bloggers
<span>An antivaccine activist explains how she uses Facebook reporting algorithms to harass and silence pro-science bloggers</span>
<div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I wish this post were an April Fools Day joke, but it is not.</p>
<p>Three weeks ago, <a href="http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/antivaccine-activists-attack-allison-hagood-using-facebook/">Skeptical Raptor</a> and <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/03/10/once-again-facebook-reporting-algorithms-facilitate-harassment-of-pro-science-advocates-by-antivaccine-cranks/">I wrote posts</a> describing how a particularly vicious, nasty antivaccine troll named Heather Murray had successfully gamed Facebook reporting algorithms intended to report abuse in order to silence pro-science bloggers. It is, unfortunately, a tactic that I first heard about over two years ago, when antivaccine activists affiliated with what was then called the Australian Vaccination Network (AVN) <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/01/02/antivaccinationists-abuse-reporting-algorithms-to-silence-pro-vaccine-skeptics-on-facebook/">used the same sort of tactics</a> to target pro-science bloggers and activists associated with a group whose purpose was to counter the misinformation spread by the AVN. What often happened was that the automatic reporting algorithm that Facebook uses to screen complaints for true violations of its "community standards" would issue temporary bans in response. Often the various "community standards" violated were unclear and difficult to avoid. For instance, directly mentioning someone by name in a disparaging fashion (or even in a non-disparaging fashion) could, if complained about, result in a ban. Bascially, Facebook’s banning algorithms are the ultimate black box. They might as well be in the center of a black hole, given how impenetrable they are and how difficult it is to shine any light on them.</p>
<!--more--><p>Obviously, as I've explained before, the clear intent of this tactic is to silence pro-vaccine voices on Facebook. These bans can last anywhere from a day to 30 days and basically prevent the person victimized from posting to Facebook for the length of the ban. Once a ban is in place, there is basically no appeal, either. For one thing, it's damned near impossible to get a hold of an actual human being at Facebook to review and reconsider spurious complaints that trigger such bans. For another thing, the level of complaint that triggers a ban seems to get lower with each successive successful complaint resulting in a ban. This has allowed antivaccine activists to keep hitting their pro-science targets with new bans almost as soon as an existing ban expires, resulting in their being locked out of Facebook for long periods of time and, when they get back on Facebook, being forced to be very careful about what they say and constantly look over their shoulder for potential attacks. If one of your outlets as a pro-science activist is Facebook, these attacks can essentially shut you down by taking you offline intermittently and making you a lot more measured in what you say. It also—intentionally—discourages pro-science activists from calling out the antivaccine misinformation promoted by those who use this tactic.</p>
<p>Everyone knows what a piece of work Meryl Dorey of the AVN is, how nasty she is. When I picture Heather Murray, I think Meryl Dorey amped up by a factor of at least 100 in terms of sheer nastiness, for reasons that you will soon see. First, a brief recap. <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/03/10/once-again-facebook-reporting-algorithms-facilitate-harassment-of-pro-science-advocates-by-antivaccine-cranks/">When last I left this sordid tale</a> of Facebook ineptitude and lack of concern, I enumerated some of the tactics Ms. Murray had used against Ms. Hagood. These included:</p>
<ol><li>Starting an online petition to Ms. Hagood’s employer requesting disciplinary action or termination.</li>
<li>Repeatedly reporting Allison to her school for her online activities, trying to get her fired.</li>
<li>Posting her private address online.</li>
<li>Emailing people she knows.</li>
<li>Creating a web site, the purpose of which is solely to harass Ms. Hagood.</li>
<li>Repeatedly sending her insulting or threatening messages.</li>
</ol><p>I also described the sorts of things Ms. Murray did to get Ms. Hagood banned. For instance, Ms. Murray had Photoshopped an image of Ms. Hagood to make her look like the Wicked Witch of the West from <em>The Wizard of Oz</em>, complete with the text, "I’ll get you, my pretty, and your little dog too!” When Ms. Hagood posted the image to demonstrate the harassment against her, it was she who wound up in what we now call "Facebook jail," not Ms. Murray. Although it can't be proven, it is widely believed in the relevant pro-vaccine Facebook groups that it was almost certainly Ms. Murray who reported her. It wasn't just Ms. Hagood who was victimized, either. Our favorite dinosaur, Skeptical Raptor, <a href="http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/antivaccine-activists-attack-allison-hagood-using-facebook/">was also targeted</a>, receiving a ban because he was reported for allegedly using racially inflammatory hate speech. In context, <a href="http://www.avwos.com/#!In-response-to-the-recent-article-in-Skepital-Raptor-and-ScienceBlogscom-where-Dave-Gorski-AKA-Orac-claims-that-Michael-Simpson-who-is-behind-the-Skeptical-Raptor-blames-his-Facebook-ban-was-from-the-use-of-the-word-Niggardly-In-reality-he-said-Nigger-and-Faggot-which-triggered-the-Facebook-ban-So-both-David-Gorski-and-Michael-Simpson-have-published-false-and-libel-statements/hvnzx/56e8bae10cf2bc133ba14cef">even as described on Ms. Murray's site</a>, he clearly was not, but rather using an example of offensive speech to make a point about how offensive he found something in a movie. Ms. Murray's dishonesty in having reported that post as Facebook abuse is truly breathtaking. But, then, she has demonstrated herself to be an antivaccine loon and Holocaust denying anti-Semite.</p>
<p>What's truly irritating about these particular incidents is that Heather Murray herself is a raging antisemite and Holocaust denier, as has been <a href="http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/antivaccine-activists-attack-allison-hagood-using-facebook/">documented elsewhere</a>. I didn't go much into it <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/03/10/once-again-facebook-reporting-algorithms-facilitate-harassment-of-pro-science-advocates-by-antivaccine-cranks">last time</a>, but I sure as heck plan to this time. For example, look at this post right here:</p>
<p><a href="https://scienceblogs.com/files/insolence/files/2016/04/facebook-anti-semitism1.jpg" rel="attachment wp-att-10131"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/insolence/files/2016/04/facebook-anti-semitism1.jpg" alt="Heather Murray's antisemitism" width="600" height="622" class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-10131" /></a></p>
<p>In fact, I was having acid flashbacks reading this post, back to the days when I used to blog regularly about Holocaust denial, because there sure is a heaping helping of Holocaust denial right here. Indeed, the Holocaust denying tropes that Ms. Murray regurgitates were of the very same variety that I used to spend to much time deconstructing and debunking back in my Usenet days on alt.revisionism and <a href="http://oracknows.blogspot.com/search?q=%22Holocaust+denial%22">early in the history</a> of <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/category/history/holocaust_denial/">this very blog</a>. I mean, seriously. Ms. Murray swallows whole the lie that Adolf Hitler himself used to try to justify the invasion of Poland, including his utterly risible claim that he never wanted war. (Coincidentally enough, I'm re-reading William Shirer's excellent <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Diary">Berlin Diary</a>, which recounts his time as a news correspondent in Nazi Germany from the time shortly after Hitler took power to just before the entry of the US into the war, and in fact just read the section on Hitler's invasion of Poland, in which Shirer recounted this very lie and how Hitler used it.) I mean, seriously. Believing lies Hitler told for propaganda purposes to get his people fired up to go to war and try to keep Poland's allies from coming to her aid? It doesn't get much more Hitler-admiring than that.</p>
<p>Ms. Murray also barfs up the old Holocaust denier canard that the prisoners in the Nazi camps died of typhus and starvation and were not intentionally murdered, as though it wasn't really horrific that the Nazis rounded up so many people and put them in camps where they were overworked, underfed, and victim to raging epidemics of infectious disease. Yes, many did die of disease and starvation, but there were also homicidal gas chambers. There were also two kinds of camps, work camps and death camps (although Auschwitz-Birkenau was both). In the work camps, prisoners were basically worked to death; in the death camps they were murdered by a variety of means, in particular gas chambers. Of course, no Holocaust denying, Hitler admiring rant is complete without an antisemitic comment about our "Zionist puppet masters." That's because Holocaust denial is always rooted in anti-Semitism. <a href="http://oracknows.blogspot.com/search?q=allan+challenge+revisionist">There are no Holocaust deniers who are not anti-Semites</a>. At least, if there are, I have not been able to find them, and I have been looking for 18 years now.</p>
<p>So, yes, Ms. Murray, through her own copious statements, regularly reveals herself to be anti-Semitic as hell, and a Holocaust denier, to boot. I'd love to see her come here and spew her bigoted pseudohistory. I guarantee you that, as is the case with antivaccine loons, she can't repeat a claim that I haven't heard and analyzed many times before. In any case, I feel the need for a shower after that, so much so that I'll just <a href="http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/racist-facebook-troll-attacks-pro-science-writers/">leave you this link</a> if you want to see more of her blatant anti-Semitism, other than this last example I'm posting here:</p>
<p><a href="https://scienceblogs.com/files/insolence/files/2016/04/heather-anti-semitism-1.jpg" rel="attachment wp-att-10132"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/insolence/files/2016/04/heather-anti-semitism-1.jpg" alt="heather-anti-semitism-1" width="481" height="103" class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-10132" /></a></p>
<p>OK, so from my perspective (and that of most people who do not share her bigoted views), Ms. Murray is a despicable, contemptible woman. That isn't the reason I posted this, although posting this did give me an excuse to emphasize just how nasty she is, something I failed to do <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/03/10/once-again-facebook-reporting-algorithms-facilitate-harassment-of-pro-science-advocates-by-antivaccine-cranks">last time</a>. (I don't know what I was thinking then.) Far more important, however, is that she is now explaining how she targets pro-science advocates. A series of comments from her from a super-secret closed Facebook group have found their way into the "wrong" hands (i.e., ours). First up:</p>
<p><a href="https://scienceblogs.com/files/insolence/files/2016/04/HM1.jpg" rel="attachment wp-att-10133"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/insolence/files/2016/04/HM1.jpg" alt="HM1" width="600" height="1067" class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-10133" /></a></p>
<p>OK, as vile as Ms. Murray is, I'll give her credit for opening a Facebook profile named Frau Heather as being mildly amusing. Whether that was what let her succeed at shutting down Ms. Hagood and others again, who knows? Unfortunately, now that the beans have been spilled, we now know not to do that sort of thing again. Of course, contrary to Ms. Murray's claim I never really even tried to figure this one out because "Frau Heather" was not an insult that I recall ever having used to describe her. In fact, I didn't really use any insults at all; I just described her behavior relatively dispassionately compared to how much her antics annoy me—more so than I have here.</p>
<p>Next up, Ms. Murray explains how mocking memes will get you banned:</p>
<p><a href="https://scienceblogs.com/files/insolence/files/2016/04/HM2.jpg" rel="attachment wp-att-10134"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/insolence/files/2016/04/HM2.jpg" alt="HM2" width="600" height="1067" class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-10134" /></a></p>
<p>Note that "AVWoS" stands for Antivaccine Wall of Shame.</p>
<p>Now, this is a rule that seems to be very inconsistently applied, because I see mocking memes about people all the time, and I know for a fact that pro-science advocates have complained to Facebook about memes made to mock them. (After all, what was Photoshopping Ms. Hagood's face onto the Wicked Witch of the West or Photoshopping her to look like Hitler but producing mocking memes?) Notice how much Ms. Murray gloats, though. I know that Ms. Murray will see this post sooner or later—although not on Facebook, at least not posted or commented upon by me, as, even though I have blocked her and every sock puppet of hers that I know about, I am not stupid. So let me just say right here that I take much pleasure in exposing someone whom I consider to be a terrible, vicious woman, her flagrant anti-Semitism, and her antivaccine nonsense, particularly revealing what she's saying about how she did it. This is information that will allow her targets to take more precautions and at least make her harassing pro-science advocates more difficult, as it makes it possible to take precautions. Besides, I do so love shining lights into dark places, to watch the cockroaches scatter.</p>
<p>Finally, we have this:</p>
<p><a href="https://scienceblogs.com/files/insolence/files/2016/04/HM3.jpg" rel="attachment wp-att-10135"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/insolence/files/2016/04/HM3.jpg" alt="HM3" width="600" height="1067" class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-10135" /></a></p>
<p>In this post, Ms. Murray spells out exactly what she recommends and brags about how many members of AVWoS she's gotten banned. At first, I wasn't sure why she linked to my <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/03/10/once-again-facebook-reporting-algorithms-facilitate-harassment-of-pro-science-advocates-by-antivaccine-cranks/">last post on the subject of antivaccine trolls</a> trying to get defenders of science banned from Facebook. After all, that was a blog post. I never posted it to Facebook—intentionally so, just as I will not post this one to Facebook, either. (Why take the chance?) Of course, then I realized that she thinks she can find the commenters on that post and try to target them for harassment on Facebook too, as no doubt she has been trying to target me, thus far without success. Such are her cowardly techniques.</p>
<p>I must admit, though, that I hadn't heard of <a href="https://www.facebook.com/jeri.maguffeekeith">Jeri Keith</a> before. It turns out that she's another antivaccine loon. She appears to like a lot of all caps. <a href="https://www.facebook.com/ArmyAnonymous/posts/508117406010877">Quelle surprise</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>
So as a member of several antivax groups...or should I say PROCHOICE GROUPS we are looking to see if you are willing to stand WITH US in DEFENDING OUR RIGHTS TO CHOOSE WHAT IS PUT INTO OUR BODIES. The California Senate right now is trying to FORCE VAX SCHOOL kids and adults vaccines a mile long are in the pipeline for us as well...around 300. We WILLNOT STAND FOR THIS....we are THOUSANDS, and MAYBE TENS OF THOUSANDS STRONG at this point. So we would like to know...are you with us..or against us. We are willing to help make a video with all kinds of intelligent free-thinking people. We have doctors and lawyers, and scientists, and biologists all that DONOT vax and we have the SCIENCE to back it up. What say you all? Please let us know ASAP as we are hoping to be able to POST ON THIS PAGE.....OUR BODY, OUR KIDS BODIES, OUR CHOICE. And we will NOT ELECT any official that is trying to take away our rights to choose.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, Heather Murray and Jeri Keith appear made to be BFFs. They deserve each other.</p>
<p>Of course, as I <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/03/10/once-again-facebook-reporting-algorithms-facilitate-harassment-of-pro-science-advocates-by-antivaccine-cranks">pointed out last time</a>, antivaccinationists have no science to back up their harmful beliefs, only pseudoscience. All they have are cherry-picked data and biased studies incompetently done by the likes of Andrew Wakefield, Mark and David Geier, Christopher Shaw, and a small cadre of scientists and physicians who somehow fell off the wagon of science into the tar pit of quackery and pseudoscience. If that weren't the case, perhaps antivaccinationists like Heather Murray wouldn't attack the person first but instead would do what real science advocates and scientists do: Marshal science, experimentation, and evidence to argue her case instead of trying to harass and suppress speech.</p>
<p>If all that succeeded in doing were to inconvenience a few bloggers and writers like Allison Hagood, Stacy Mintzer Herlihy, our skeptical scaly Raptor friend, or myself, it might not be such a big deal. The problem is that Facebook is such an enormous platform that to be banned from Facebook is to loose access to a major means of getting one's message out. That's the intent. In the decade-plus that I've been blogging, social media has changed markedly. Before, blogs ruled. Now, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat and other platforms rule. I still use a blog because it allows me to say things in way more detail than these other platforms do and requires me to write actual essays, but I know that it might not be the most effective platform in general for my message. On the other hand, I know my strengths and weaknesses, and blogs play to my strengths. The point is, though, that antivaccinationists can't win on science and evidence; so they fall back to despicable and deceptive techniques of the sort used by the Heather Murrays of the world.</p>
<p>Of course, the real problem is that Facebook allows this to happen. Even worse, there is a double standard that's been demonstrated time and time again, when pro-science advocates have complained about the very same sort of mocking memes, personal attacks, and offensive posts to which pro-science Facebook members are regularly subjected to. Heck, how is it that Ms. Murray's antisemitic posts don't "violate Facebook's community standards"? Now, I'm under no illusion that Facebook is anything other than a company looking to make money, nor am I under any illusion that I am Facebook's customer. Rather, I am Facebook's product to be monetized in any way possible, as are Allison Hagood, Stacy Mintzer Herlihy, and the Skeptical Raptor. Yes, those of you who are on Facebook are, too. The very fact that Facebook users who are victimized by these bans complain and clamor to be reinstated shows how Facebook has all the power. Add to that the billion users it has who generate far more complaints than it has employees to deal with, and, unless there is a mass exodus from Facebook because of its automated complaint algorithms or publicity that's so bad that even Mark Zuckerberg has to take notice, Facebook is unlikely to take any significant action to fix its badly broken abuse reporting system so that it can't be so easily used to harass and silence. So far, having few dozen users targeted by antivaccine loons doesn't qualify. Facebook has no compelling reason to fix its broken algorithms.</p>
<p>At the end of the day, I consider people like Heather Murray to be contemptible pathetic people, too cowardly to try to win on the field of ideas. In fact, for that very reason I considered not writing this post. However, given how Ms. Murray gloated about her methods, I figured it was worth discussing her one last time in order to give my readers a heads up.</p>
<p>Finally, I was amused to learn from various sources that Ms. Murray was—shall we say?—not very happy about my previous post and that she has claimed to have tried to contact me. Let me just say right here, right now, that I have received no such contact from Heather, and I checked the spam folders of all my public e-mail accounts, just to make sure I didn't miss an e-mail from her for that reason. So I'll make it easy for her now. She is welcome to comment here—if she dares. If she doesn't, my e-mail address is <a href="mailto:orac@scienceblogsllc.com">orac@scienceblogsllc.com</a>. She should be aware, though, that as with any e-mail to the blog, I reserve the right to publish anything she says and respond as I see fit.</p>
<p>Best wishes, Ms. Murray.</p>
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<span>Thu, 03/31/2016 - 21:00</span>
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<section><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1330639" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1459481910"></mark><div class="well">
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So let me get this straight: you set up a profile that uses a nickname, and when people instead refer to you by your full name (which is out there for everyone to see on your original profile) you can then report them and successfully have them banned for "revealing" your full name?</p>
<p>Seriously, Facebook...</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Amethyst (not verified)</span> on 31 Mar 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330639">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1330640" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1459482533"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I never guessed that telling tales to the blackboard monitor could become the cause of so much satisfaction.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 31 Mar 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330640">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1330641" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1459483460"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>For instance, directly mentioning someone by name in a disparaging fashion could, if complained about, result in a ban. </p></blockquote>
<p>In fact, you do not have to write anything disparaging about them. You merely need to mention there name.</p>
<p>On the subject of opening accounts based on other names, ths would appear to breach Facebook's terms of use.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Chris Preston (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330641">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1330642" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1459483503"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>That would be "their name"</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Chris Preston (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330642">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1330643" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1459483535"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ah, FB, the digital version of the Western Sahara.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330643">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1330644" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1459487114"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I never was on Facebook, and the more I read about what happens there, the more I am persuaded that I made the right decision. The Internet is a wonderful thing, but it also provides a window into the souls of racist, misogynistic, bigoted, and anti Semitic vipers.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Ellie (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330644">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1330645" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1459488208"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I know how the algorithm works after being given five time outs by vindictive, gloating fools like HM above.</p>
<p>A name used multiple times in a thread can be reported under the 'Harassment' reporting substructure. You can actually report anyone for harassment for nothing more than using your name. So when HM sat on that nick name for a while, she then went through AVWoS and found every single mention of Frau or Heather and reported them for harassing her. Many of those reports stuck and they were banned.</p>
<p>Therefore, on Facebook, do not use names unless absolutely necessary. Copy and paste quotes if you need to address someone, but do not use names or malicious reporting can occur. </p>
<p>Another work around is to not capitalise names; the algorithm tends to miss that. It looks rude, but works.</p>
<p>I hope that helps explain some of her tactics.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Jane (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330645">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1330646" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1459488380"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Chris Preston #3</p>
<p>It can be any name, using her tactics of creating false accounts, not just yours.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Jane (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330646">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1330647" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1459490334"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The more I read of Ms M (and I wouldn't put it past her to try to use any comment in here to get someone banned by creating an account with that "name"), the more I know I would dislike her. Sure, I have some friends who are antivaccine loons, and also into energy fields, crystals, essential oils, and so forth (twitch), but they are not vicious. We've had several discussions that usually end up with "you believe your thing, I'll believe mine".</p>
<p>But Ms M is vicious. The actions she and her friends use, the lies, the attacks, are all the actions of a bully in the school yard, someone so afraid of their shadow that they have to lash out at any perceived threat that might show them to be in error.</p>
<p>Like many, I dislike diagnosing others over the internet. So I'll just say these people are the most entitled, nastiest people I've ever seen and I hope they (NOT their children) suffer from a VPD.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">MI Dawn (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330647">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1330648" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1459490952"></mark><div class="well">
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The white supremacist/anti vax angle is new to me. But it makes sense considering that white power types think there's a vast global conspiracy that's preventing people from dropping to their knees and worshiping them. (Instead of their own ineptitude.)</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">GiJoel (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330648">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1330649" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1459493097"></mark><div class="well">
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>She's a disgusting human being right along with the women who sabatoge children's beauty pageants and run over kids at Easter egg hunts. However, if she were to get me banned at FB, I would consider it a favor and she could stick her gloating, well, she knows where.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Not a Troll (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330649">#permalink</a></em>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1330650" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1459494869"></mark><div class="well">
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>" In fact, I was having acid flashbacks.." Orac.</p>
<p>How much do you want to bet that an anti-vaxxer picks up this and starts a meme that our esteemed host is a drug user, hippie freak or regularly attends raves ( altho' that's Molly not acid)?<br />
All of which are not very likely.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330650">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1330651" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1459495363"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Yeah, it's a figure of speech that I probably shouldn't use, given that, other than alcohol and caffeine, I've been completely drug free my entire life, and that includes even nicotine. :-)</p>
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<footer><em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330651">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Does Heather have a job, or ever intend to get a job, one that doesn't involve impersonating Irma Grese at a skinhead convention? Because, you know, HR, google...</p>
<p>Orac, if you haven't read Karski: How One Man Tried To Stop The Holocaust (E. Thomas Wood) I highly recommend that you do. It's excellent.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Delphine (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330652">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Does Heather have a job, or ever intend to get a job, one that doesn’t involve impersonating Irma Grese at a skinhead convention? Because, you know, HR, google…</p></blockquote>
<p>A lot of people use pseudonyms on Facebook for this very reason; for instance, if you teach Hebrew and Yiddish, you might not want everybody to know what your opinions on Netanyahu or Isreal's increasingly right-wing ethnic nationalism are.</p>
<p>There was a time when Facebook was trying to force everybody to use their real names, including trans people who used a chosen name rather than their given name, but it almost resulted in a mass exodus to "Ello" (where I have an account, but ended up never using it.) Facebook changed their policy pretty quickly after that.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">JP (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330653">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Honestly, I've never understood what draws so many screamingly paranoid "gumbit put spy satellites in my underpants" types to Facebook. After all, FB and Google are only the two largest <em>private</em> surveillance systems in the world. </p>
<p>OTOH, I don't quite get why anyone with half a brain would want to be on it either. Stupid internets.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">has (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330654">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Because they're both incredibly useful in their own ways?</p>
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<footer><em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330655">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Heather Murray is a foul, anti-semitic ditchpig and clearly knows how to game the system. Every blogpost about her should start off that way and give her the Google juice she so richly deserves.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330656">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1330657" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1459501596"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@has: There are people who, for whatever reason, want to be in touch with old friends, distant relatives, or high school classmates. Facebook is the best available tool for people in that category, which doesn't include me. I've heard enough anecdotal stories of extreme derp (not just anti-vax nonsense, but also including political extremism, as Orac documents above) to be wary of joining Facebook.</p>
<p>Then there are the small businesses who use Facebook as a marketing tool. I'm not going to second guess their decision to join--they want customers, and Facebook is a good place to look for them.</p>
<p>FD: I am not on Facebook. I am on LinkedIn, which is more of a professional than personal site, and has much less derp[1]. I'm also on ResearchGate, which is specifically aimed at people in the scientific research business. The latter two networks met my threshold of "the advantages of having this outweigh the disadvantages of having this." Facebook has not. Nor has Twitter.</p>
<p>[1]LinkedIn is not immune to derp. I have seen a post there "challenging" people to name a city that does not contain an E. Such as Washington, Ottawa, Havana, Nassau, Santo Domingo, Kingston, San Salvador, Bogota, Quito, Lima, Santiago, Paramaribo, Brasilia, La Paz, or Asuncion, just to name national capitals in the Western Hemisphere.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330657">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>give her the Google juice she so richly deserves</p></blockquote>
<p>Alas, Google tweaked their ranking algorithm in 2007 to prevent this from working. For about three years prior to that, George W. Bush's official White House biography was the top result of a Google search for "miserable failure". Today the top result of that search is a Wikipedia article on Google bombs. So as much as Ms. Murray might deserve such a fate, it would be much harder to pull off.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330658">#permalink</a></em>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1330659" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1459502271"></mark><div class="well">
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>There are people who, for whatever reason, want to be in touch with old friends, distant relatives, or high school classmates.</p></blockquote>
<p>Not just distant relatives; I keep in touch with cousins and one aunt in particular by means of Facebook. I'm not much of a phone gabber, under normal circumstances, so it works for me.</p>
<p>I've learned to ignore, to a large extent, the "angry Republican" part of my family when they post whiny or angry comments on political articles I share. The funny thing about American politics at this point is that it doesn't really seem possible to actually change minds to a large extent - people have "chosen a side" and mostly won't budge - which means I'm mostly preaching to the choir, but whatever.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">JP (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330659">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Delphine #15 - she is listed as co-owner of several businesses in CA, but doesn't appear to work.</p>
<p>My admin profile (yes, I admit to having more than one profile, FB TOS be damned due to this situation) is back in FB jail on a 30-day ban for a post that was removed and determined to be in violation of their community standards. As you know, FB sends copies of removed posts to people who are in trouble.</p>
<p>The post that was sent to me WAS BLANK.</p>
<p>In addition, I have attempted to copy Ms. Murray's tactics as an experiment. As you can see, she refers to me as A. Hag. I created a fake profile with that name, and reported all comments using that name that I could find on a particular anti-vax group. Precisely ZERO of them were removed.</p>
<p>Something else is going on.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Allison Hagood (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330660">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>How long has that profile been in existence? Notice how Heather said she created her profile a long time ago and kept it on the down low. Your profile might be too new.</p>
<p>Ah, well. No doubt our not-so-friendly neighborhood antisemitic antivaxer will try again to get me a "time out" from Facebook. I'm fairly confident that she will fail given that she hasn't managed to succeed in the three weeks since I posted my last blog post about her abuses.</p>
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<footer><em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330661">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Orac #24 That particular profile is my AVWoS admin one, and has been in existence since the creation of the current AVWoS page, which has been about 3 years.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Allison Hagood (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330662">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Allison Hagood: is it possible that because your posts are public, they can be "read" by the 'bots, while the ones you are trying to report are from a private group which the 'bots may not be able to read? Just wondering if that's the difference.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">MI Dawn (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330663">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I've wondered that myself. My Facebook posts are nearly all restricted to my Facebook friends. I rarely, if ever, set my posts to be public. Thus far, Heather has failed to get me banned.</p>
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<footer><em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330664">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Delphine: "Does Heather have a job, or ever intend to get a job, one that doesn’t involve impersonating Irma Grese at a skinhead convention? Because, you know, HR, google…"</p>
<p>Well, she sure does not seem to make time to parent any children she has, and I feel very sorry any child of her who had special needs. </p>
<p>I am still parenting a child who his almost thirty years old. There are lots of people involved in trying to make him independent. It would be a death knell if I took the time Ms. Heather spends on Facebook --- and worse if the people who are all working hard for him to see that kind of hatefulness.</p>
<p>Let me just say this: she is not doing the disabled, nor the family of the disabled any favor. (and not just autism, many of us got an earful from someone who was questioning the different levels of IQ between autism and Down Syndrome that qualify for state Developmental Disabilities Admin services last week at a Transition Fair .... and just for the troll, 1588d, over at the "film festival drops Vaxxed" thread --- the fair was on the Microsoft campus in Redmond, WA).</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330665">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@MI Dawn #26 No, the posts I am reporting using her tactics are all on a particular public page.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Allison Hagood (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330666">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I have seen a post there “challenging” people to name a city that does not contain an E.</p></blockquote>
<p>Is that intentionally stupid? London, Munich, Tokyo, Stockholm. Just off the top of my head. Or closer to home for me, Washington, District of Columbia. </p>
<p>What a stupid question.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">LW (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330667">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Allison Hagood Perhaps there is strength in numbers and you need more complaints so they don't get overlooked.</p>
<p>However, call it the conspiracy theorist in me, I think there is more going on here too. Maybe not political but it could be a personal favor.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Not a Troll (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330668">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>To join Facebook would mean supporting a company I despise. That other media then require you to use a FB login means maybe they haven't considered their ethics either.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">rork (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330669">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Mr Zukerberg's book of faces also censors posts which run afoul of the company's agenda du juor. For example, posting about the German sexual assaults perpetrated by Mulsim migrants often results in the post being removed, and sometimes the poster's account being blocked.<br />
Mr. Zukerberg has met with Angela Merkel, whose policies welcome said migrants. </p>
<p>FB and the like are curious things: They function like a public common space, but they are actually private property. They work assiduously to project a feel-good image of youth-friendly culture, but are actually authoritarian and regressive, always favoring government power over individual expression. </p>
<p>The founders of these companies are part of the generation who will soon be senators and kings high elected officials.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Spectator (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330670">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1330671" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1459506651"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>In place of "government power", i should have used concentration of power, as while they may kowtow or collude with governments, social media companies are (obviously) private. It's more the idea that individual speech needs to be controlled by a 'correct thinking' authority, rather than what flag that authority sails under. </p>
<p>Say, if anyone here has our gracious host's ear, can they advise in favor of enabling comment edits?</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Spectator (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330671">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>To join Facebook would mean supporting a company I despise. That other media then require you to use a FB login means maybe they haven’t considered their ethics either.</p></blockquote>
<p>So don't use Facebook. I can't recall the last time I've encountered other media that absolutely require a Facebook login; they nearly always offer their own login or offer Twitter, Disqus, or other options to use. Assuming there are still such media, though, then I guess you just have to weigh your hatred of Facebook against how badly you want to have a login for that media. I'm afraid I'm not particularly sympathetic to this problem.</p>
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<footer><em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330672">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Say, if anyone here has our gracious host’s ear, can they advise in favor of enabling comment edits?</p></blockquote>
<p>I have no control over that. Sorry.</p>
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<footer><em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330673">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>In #31, I should have referred to it as a personal contact not a personal favor. Once upon a time the business where I worked had to do this with Google (on 2 separate occasions) when their bot shut down our website because their algorithm mistakenly ID us as using a black hat technique.</p>
<p>Anyway, I find it curious there isn't more policing of this crowd on FB because Zuckerberg has also set them off.</p>
<p><a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/01/11/mark-zuckerberg-angers-anti-vaxxers-with-photo-of-baby-at-doctors-office-getting-vaccinations/">https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/01/11/mark-zuck…</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Not a Troll (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330674">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Long time reader, possibly first time poster.</p>
<p>I'm adding to the comments simply to give her more targets. You mentioned she's perhaps trying to identify commenters on pieces she finds particularly offensive. So, here i am! Find me on FB if you can! Spend precious energy chasing your tail and hopefully leaving alone other hardworking, honest, ethical people who value truth!</p>
<p>(I'm a bit naive, but you never know. Maybe it'll work.)</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Shelix (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330675">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It's worth noting that Facebook policy actually prohibits opening an account with something other than your legal name. Her "Frau Heather" account is actually all by itself in violation. They don't typically enforce this unless someone complains.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Dan Welch (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330676">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I have a close friend who works at FB...I'll ask him about the banning process and report back.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">JeffM (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330677">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I can't I believe how beyond immature, vile, smug, and hateful this woman is. She's like an overgrown schoolyard bully, gloating about how badly she abused someone and how she'll do it all over again just to be mean and childish. She clearly needs deep psychological counseling, and a long, long, long break away from virtual reality.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Carrie-Anne (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330678">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ spectator</p>
<blockquote><p>FB and the like are curious things: They function like a public common space, but they are actually private property.</p></blockquote>
<p>And vice-versa. Regularly, some blogger - here or elsewhere - would start a thread around a comment posted on Facebook by someone with 2000+ friends, only for the comment's author or on of his/her numerous followers to show up and complain that the comment was part of a private discussion.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Helianthus (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330679">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I have a close friend who works at FB…I’ll ask him about the banning process and report back.</p></blockquote>
<p>Unless he has something to do with the banning algorithm, he probably won't be able to find out much, but it never hurts to ask...</p>
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<footer><em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330680">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>herr doktor bimler:</p>
<blockquote><p>I never guessed that telling tales to the blackboard monitor could become the cause of so much satisfaction.</p></blockquote>
<p>Pity she wasn't trying this crap with Blackboard Monitor Vimes of Ankh-Morpork. ;-) He'd never put up with it.</p>
<p>LW:</p>
<blockquote><blockquote>I have seen a post there “challenging” people to name a city that does not contain an E.</blockquote>
<p>Is that intentionally stupid? London, Munich, Tokyo, Stockholm. Just off the top of my head. Or closer to home for me, Washington, District of Columbia.</p>
<p>What a stupid question.</p></blockquote>
<p>Of course it's a stupid question. It's really a marketing tool. If you respond, depending on your Facebook security settings (which, incidentally, can change without your knowledge if Facebook updates their security policies, so check them often), it may allow them some access to your profile. More importantly, your response will show up in your own feed, inspiring some of your friends to try it, which will get *them* linked in as well. It's basically a way to gain a list of Facebook users to advertise to. It's rather clever. The question is extremely easy, so anyone can answer. Clever people may look at it, think "how ridiculously stupid" and reply to that effect. Less clever people will think "oh, I know one!" and reply with that, feeling pleased that they did better than the quiz expected them to. But truthfully, it doesn't matter what you post as long as you reply to it. That's all they really want.</p>
<p>Best thing is just to ignore those little "quizzes".</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Calli Arcale (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330681">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"So don’t use Facebook. I can’t recall the last time I’ve encountered other media that absolutely require a Facebook login; they nearly always offer their own login or offer Twitter, Disqus, or other options to use. Assuming there are still such media, though, then I guess you just have to weigh your hatred of Facebook against how badly you want to have a login for that media. I’m afraid I’m not particularly sympathetic to this problem."</p>
<p>I'm not asking for sympathy, since there's no point in that. I'm lobbying the readers.<br />
As for their being almost always another login, I looked at both the Detroit Free Press, and the Detroit News - both facebook only I think.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">rork (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330682">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I see that Heather has her very own <a href="https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Heather_Ann_Murray">page</a> at Encyclopedia Dramatica.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330683">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>She also has her very own website:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.avwos.com">http://www.avwos.com</a></p>
<p>Man, how ugly and poorly designed can a website be?</p>
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<footer><em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330684">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Monique's <a href="https://www.change.org/p/arapahoe-county-college-littleton-colorado-termination-disciplinary-action-for-faculty-member-elizabeth-allison-hagood">petition</a> is also hilarious:</p>
<blockquote><p>Secondly, since this petition was originated, it has been manipulated with malware and circulated to promote harm with all sorts of viruses attached. There have been many confirmed individuals that were compromised with this hacking method. Allison Hagood and her FB "Anti Vax Wall of Shame" members are relentless to stop me from exposing the truth.</p></blockquote>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330685">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Calli Arcale / herr doktor bimler:</p>
<blockquote><p>Pity she wasn’t trying this crap with Blackboard Monitor Vimes of Ankh-Morpork.</p></blockquote>
<p>Ahhh! I wanted to say something like this, but my brain failed to rise to the challenge.<br />
Madame, you made my day. Or rather, Fabricati diem.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Helianthus (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330686">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Monique's petition gives frivolous, ineffective internet petitions a bad name.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Mephistopheles O'Brien" xml:lang="">Mephistopheles… (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330687">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>If you respond, depending on your Facebook security settings (which, incidentally, can change without your knowledge if Facebook updates their security policies, so check them often), it may allow them some access to your profile. More importantly, your response will show up in your own feed, inspiring some of your friends to try it, which will get *them* linked in as well. It’s basically a way to gain a list of Facebook users to advertise to.</p></blockquote>
<p>As I said above, I saw this marketing gimmick (and I agree that's the most plausible explanation) on LinkedIn, but I had heard reports of similar things on Facebook. And yes, the reason I saw it is because at least one of my LinkedIn connections replied to this "quiz". As with Facebook the LinkedIn user is the product--the main difference is that LinkedIn has ways to monetize their user base that are not obviously nefarious (such as offering companies paid access to potential job candidates), while Facebook seems to be purely about the marketing.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330688">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>She hasn't targeted me yet. Maybe I am not very obvious. Commenting on this just to give her more research to do. How hard can it be for her to find a former biotech employee?</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Mrs Woo (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330689">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Mrs. Woo! Always good to see you here. I hope you and the menagerie and the family are doing well.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">JP (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330690">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Let me put it this way - when you've spent the first half of your life 5 miles from a former Nazi death camp and the second half in the city that's been through two uprisings against Nazis and on the way to work you pass like 10 commemorative plaques stating things like "on this site Nazis shot 100 civilians" - well, Holocaust denial makes me very angry indeed.<br />
Not to mention this little fact that while Poland did have internment camps before WWII, they were for communists and socialists (regardless of their ethnic origin), not Germans. But then again, facts are nothing to these people.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Alia (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330691">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>A friend of mine was a PR at Facebook here until recently; he told me that you don't need to get loads of people to complain, as one complaint is sufficient to get something looked at. He couldn't tell me anything about the banning decisions, though - they were just as impenetrable to him as to the rest of us, though he could get something looked at quickly if necessary.</p>
<p>On the fake name multiple profiles, I'm pretty sure that's against the Facebook ToS, so they're worth reporting just for existing.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Kate (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330692">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>LW @ 30:</p>
<p>Those kinds of posts (name a city without an E in the name, give a dog's name that doesn't have an A in it, what's the result of 5 + 5 + 5 x 5 + 5) are nerd snipes designed to collect usernames and other personal info for spam generators. I've been suckered by a couple because people on the internet can't do simple arithmetic, and the SIWOTI reflex is hard to ignore sometimes.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">jfb (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330693">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Not a Troll @37: Chances are 99.99999% that Zuckerberg hasn't heard anything about it.<br />
I'm pretty sure that something like this happens in all the vicious areas of Facebook. In order for something to be done about this specific instance it has to come to the attention of internal FB.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">JustaTech (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330694">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Clearly you took my comment about Zuckerberg way too literally. Don't you recognize hyperbole when you see it?</p>
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<footer><em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330695">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I have been noticing a lot of abuse of Disqus flags at places I comment. Regularly I'm seeing all the pro-science voices in the discussion get removed. And again--there's nobody to take this to. </p>
<p>For people who wail a lot about free speech, they aren't really very clear about how it works.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Mary M (mem_somerville)" xml:lang="">Mary M (mem_so… (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330696">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I am fairly sure that Facebook uses an algorithm that looks at a database of ethnic, racial, etc. insults and only acts when it finds one. I suspect the second level is in some place like Bangalore or Quezon City, staffed by people with a reasonable command of English, but like the algorithm, are lacking the appropriate context . I kind of hope so, since the likely alternative is nauseating.<br />
I've reported a number of comments but only one was taken down, and that only after the second level. Allowed to stand was a suggestion for a new superhero named "Jew Taker". Same thing for a rant about Jews running the world. Worse is the page called "Jewish Ritual Murder" dedicated to the blood libel. Thousands of people have complained about that one, including members of Congress and the Anti-Defamation League, but it doesn't "violate our community standards".<br />
I shouldn't be surprised, given that anti-Semitism doesn't get the same reaction around the world as other kinds of racism. For example, just look at all the anti-Semitic authors whose works are still part of the great literature canon.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Old Rockin' Dave (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330697">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>A random sample from HeaIThLERs website:<br />
"For instance in Israel it is illegal to marry a non-Jew as well as gay marriage. Non-Jews that enter Israel as a refugee are imprisoned for 3 years."<br />
Those two sentences contain more lies than they do words.<br />
I wonder if any antivaxxer has had the courage to denounce her for it; they likely wouldn't fare any better at her hands than vaccine supporters do.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Old Rockin' Dave (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330698">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Allison Hagood@23</p>
<blockquote><p>Something else is going on.</p></blockquote>
<p>Cross posting my comment from Skeptical Raptor's blog. I also want to add "get over yourself" given that I have said the same thing 4 times (I think) now and apparently been ignored every time. The Facebook reporting problem is <i>much</i> bigger than the harassment you personally suffer and there's no reason other than ego to think Heather Murray has special influence.<br />
----------<br />
Nope. Nope, nope, nope. This is unrealistic and uncomfortably close to stuck backspace key = being hacked. The Facebook reporting algorithms are broken and the problem has been well known since they were implemented. They have been abused for much bigger things such as repressive governments silencing dissent.</p>
<p>Sorry to say, you are not that special. Your troll is very unlikely to be in a privledged position. She is just one of many who knows how to abuse the system.</p>
<p>Why does it not work for you? Interesting question and I don't know the inner workings well enough to answer definitively. I have two thoughts however:</p>
<p>1. Quantity. Despite Facebook's protestations quantity seems be a major factor in when action is taken. It seems likely that it's not just Heather but a number of AV trolls reporting you.</p>
<p>2. Reason. I suspect the algorithms assess posts differently based on the reason for reports. It's possible that had you chosen a different reason your reports would have been acted on.</p>
<p>Remember, you are a sample of one. A couple of your reports weren't accepted while Heather's were. We don't know many reports she submitted. We don't know how many other accounts duplicated the reports (clearly she has multiple accounts herself).</p>
<p>What we do know is that this is a system that has been abused from its inception by many people to harass many people. The probability that they all had inside help seems low. The possibility that there is a flaw in the system that they all exploited seems much more realistic.</p>
<p>We know the reporting alogrithm is automated. The chances that there are even many people at Facebook with the ability to influence internal automated systems seems low. That would be an abject failure of least privledge policy which is IT 101.</p>
<p>Let's leave the paranoia to the other side.<br />
----------<br />
Kate@55</p>
<blockquote><p>A friend of mine was a PR at Facebook here until recently; he told me that you don’t need to get loads of people to complain, as one complaint is sufficient to get something looked at. He couldn’t tell me anything about the banning decisions, though – they were just as impenetrable to him as to the rest of us, though he could get something looked at quickly if necessary.</p></blockquote>
<p>Thanks Kate for providing some confirmation that the average Facebook employee does not have knowledge of or influence over the algorithms.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">capnkrunch (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330699">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#62 yes, I tend to ignore people who are rude for petty and unnecessary reasons.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Allison Hagood (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330700">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Facebook has no compelling reason to fix its broken algorithms.</p></blockquote>
<p>This 100 times. I think I said it in the last thread as well, Facebook is too big and too central in people's lives for market pressure to be a realistic tool for enacting change. Heck, the reporting algorithms aren't even the worst thing Facebook has done (remember when they were doing secret research on users withoit consent or any kind of IRB oversight?).</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">capnkrunch (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330701">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Mary M #59.</p>
<p>I don't know how your issue will fly using this method but whenever I've had technical problems with reporting other users (or any problem) to Disqus, I start a discussion within Disqus about it. Moderators get right on it when they see that :)</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Not a Troll (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330702">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Man, how ugly and poorly designed can a website be?"</p>
<p>Wonder what the <a href="http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com">http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com</a> guy would do with it.</p>
<p>The "Quadrazillions Of Health Freedom Fighters" loon's website already won an award over there.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Dangerous Bacon (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330703">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#54 </p>
<p>In my experience, the people who scream that the the Holocaust didn't happen also want to finish the job, and will be near the front of the line to do so when the opportunity strikes. They are not harmless eccentrics. </p>
<p>We take an orderly society for granted, but it can break within days.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Spectator (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330704">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>re #36</p>
<p>Aha, mystery solved.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Spectator (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330705">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Clearly you took my comment about Zuckerberg way too literally.</i></p>
<p>Not really. I did a search on the controversy of the antivaccine movement on FB and found that Zuckerberg did a <a href="http://www.businessinsider.com/mark-zuckerberg-vaccinations-facebook-on-immunity-book-club-2015-2?r=UK&IR=T">book report</a> on immunizations last year. </p>
<p>That, and the post about his daughter's shots, led me to believe it was a pet cause of his. I didn't expect that he read the 70,000 comments on his recent post but it was in the media enough to think someone would have told him about it if he was deeply interested in the subject. Yet, perhaps it doesn't go beyond his own personal PSA posts.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Not a Troll (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330706">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I don’t know how your issue will fly using this method but whenever I’ve had technical problems with reporting other users (or any problem) to Disqus, I start a discussion within Disqus about it. Moderators get right on it when they see that</p></blockquote>
<p>Disqustink proper doesn't have moderators; there are <a href="https://help.disqus.com/customer/portal/articles/1753105-basic-rules-for-disqus-powered-profiles-and-discussions">exactly six things</a> that the mothership will concern itself with. "Gang flagging" isn't one of them, to the extent that it exists at all.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330707">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>“Man, how ugly and poorly designed can a website be?”</p>
<p>Wonder what the h[]tp://<a href="http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com">www.webpagesthatsuck.com</a> guy would do with it.</p>
<p>The “Quadrazillions Of Health Freedom Fighters” loon’s website already won an award over there.</p></blockquote>
<p>As did <a href="http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/worst-websites-of-2013.html">Patty Bolen</a> (No. 18).</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330708">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>A random sample from HeaIThLERs website</p></blockquote>
<p>Heh: <code>meta name="keywords" content="Allison Hagood, Dorit, PSYOPS, cyber bully, harassment"</code>.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330709">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I have been noticing a lot of abuse of Disqus flags at places I comment. Regularly I’m seeing all the pro-science voices in the discussion get removed. And again–there’s nobody to take this to.</p></blockquote>
<p>The various sites that use Disqus have different ways of dealing with flagged posts. Some automatically delete posts that have been flagged a certain number of times. Certain people take advantage of this. For example, one prolific commenter called Ted Miner has at least a dozen sock puppet accounts on Disqus and uses them to flag posts that he disagrees with. I can expect my posts on some boards to be deleted with a couple of days. </p>
<p>Somewhat hilariously, one of these boards (which never locks threads) actually locked one thread when the number of comments went from about 1600 to less than 50 within 3 days by people gaming the algorithm. I imagine the moderator got cheesed off by people complaining that their innocuous posts were being deleted.</p>
<p>I feel a bit sorry for the moderators who check each report when these people turn up on their boards.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Chris Preston (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330710">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Vuppe was a Mod when I worked with him. I see he's now an All-Star. Reads like the same thing to me if you look at some of his comments. </p>
<p><a href="https://disqus.com/by/kandric/">https://disqus.com/by/kandric/</a></p>
<p>Again, I'm not sure how he'd handle your issue. Most likely he'd refer you to the individual website's Mods who control deleting comments but you can always raise the question with Disqus.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Not a Troll (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330711">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>The Facebook reporting problem is much bigger than the harassment you personally suffer and there’s no reason other than ego to think Heather Murray has special influence.</p></blockquote>
<p>Exactly.</p>
<p>The most probable reason why Heather Murray is more successful in getting people blocked and posts taken down than you is persistence.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Chris Preston (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330712">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Disqus also had the issue of the Upvote bots. It looks like they got a handle on it, but not before some people got banned and some earned over 100,000 upvotes.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Not a Troll (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330713">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>As I type this now, I am on a 30 day Facebook ban courtesy of Ms Meryl Dorey of AV(s)N. All because I used her name to counter her on a Facebook post on Prime Minister Turnballs Facebook page on the No Jab No Pay legislation. I did not swear or threaten Ms Dorey in any way. I did however note that she is a person who encourages abuse towards families of children who have died from whooping cough.</p>
<p>For a person who supposedly upholds 'free speech' she certainly moves to stifle her opponents. Free speech indeed.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Sarah E (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330714">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Again, I’m not sure how he’d handle your issue. Most likely he’d refer you to the individual website’s Mods who control deleting comments but you can always raise the question with Disqus.</p></blockquote>
<p>Disqus refers all queries about individual sites to the moderator of that site. It only acts on a couple of system wide issues itself (spam and harassment) and on posts on its own discussion boards.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Chris Preston (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330715">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Disqus also had the issue of the Upvote bots. It looks like they got a handle on it, but not before some people got banned and some earned over 100,000 upvotes.</p></blockquote>
<p>This was largely fixed by requiring logging in prior to upvoting or downvoting a post. Some people get around this by having multiple sock-puppet accounts and use them to upvote all their own posts (see Ted Miner previously mentioned). Frankly, you have be dedicated to go to this amount of trouble.</p>
<p>I think the Disqus example is just one more demonstration that some people will find ways of gaming the system to remove criticism if that is possible.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Chris Preston (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330716">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>For a person who supposedly upholds ‘free speech’ she certainly moves to stifle her opponents. Free speech indeed.</p></blockquote>
<p>Sarah, I don't know why you are surprised by this. It has always been Meryl Dorey's way.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Chris Preston (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330717">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>So don’t use Facebook. I can’t recall the last time I’ve encountered other media that absolutely require a Facebook login</i></p>
<p>Village Voice, which hosts Roy Edroso's column,<br /><a href="http://www.villagevoice.com/authors/roy-edroso-6354670">http://www.villagevoice.com/authors/roy-edroso-6354670</a><br />
demands that commenters log in with the Facebukkake.<br />
In consequence, the comment threads hardly exist at VV and people go to Roy's own blog.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330718">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>This is why I don't participate or engage in the AVOWS page. I lurke. I know that's not the bravest answer, but FB keeps me connected to my family, friends, my kids school, my school, current events, news, professional organizations and on and on. Facebook is so central these days, I won't argue wether that's good or bad it just is. Antivaxers are total loons with no conscious, and I can't risk being cut off from not just things I want to know, because t things I need to know. </p>
<p>Has it ever been considered that maybe Heather works for Facebook? Someone has to be behind the algorithms, someone has to be the staff behind the screen (likely hundreds if not thousands of people). Why not her?</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Chrissyb (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330719">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>This is why I don’t participate or engage in the AVOWS page.</p></blockquote>
<p>Hell, they banned me, so I can't even view it if logged in. They're on their own as far as I'm concerned.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330720">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><blockquote>Disqus also had the issue of the Upvote bots. It looks like they got a handle on it, but not before some people got banned and some earned over 100,000 upvotes.</blockquote>
<p>This was largely fixed by requiring logging in prior to upvoting or downvoting a post. Some people get around this by having multiple sock-puppet accounts and use them to upvote all their own posts (see Ted Miner previously mentioned). Frankly, you have be dedicated to go to this amount of trouble.</p></blockquote>
<p>It would still actually be quite easy to automate Disqustink voting to an <i>N</i> of the number of public application keys one felt like dredging up.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330721">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Chrissyb@82</p>
<blockquote><p>Has it ever been considered that maybe Heather works for Facebook?</p></blockquote>
<p>Unlikely. Your problem is not unique and the likelihood that all reporting abuse is an inside job is small. Remember, reporting has been abused from its inception for things such as repressive governments silencing dissent. There's no reason to think Heather is special, she's just another one of many who knows how to game the system.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">capnkrunch (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330722">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@JP #53</p>
<p>Thank you. I have been trying to keep up with posts but not commenting as much or finding the time to check back when I do, but the old house is under contract and with any luck we will finish the new house and be moved in by end of summer. </p>
<p>The menagerie is pretty good. We will be breaking and riding the horses this spring. </p>
<p>Hope.everything is well with you, too, JP? Always nice to see you.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Mrs Woo (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330723">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Narad re #46: Man, that's harsh.</p>
<p>Honestly, I have to look at all this with admiration. It says something about how much this nutjob fears you that she goes to such efforts.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Panacea (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330724">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thank you for this column. Allison Hagood and I intend to get revenge on her by writing another book. She's taken her campaign to my husband by sending him a nasty pm. It includes ridiculous accusations of kinds including allegations that my hubby is a pedophile. </p>
<p>I don't even know what to say her anymore other than it's pathetic that her life's mission is apparently to lie about the holocaust, emulate the Nazis and harass advocates for public health.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Stacy Herlihy (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330725">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Allison, Stacy,</p>
<p>Need help to deal with her? Pedophilia accusation is something I find hard to deal with and I've dealt with many nasty critters over the last 12 years, one of which was sent to my province's national forensic hospital after I've provided testimony against him. I'm on gmail and easy to contact.</p>
<p>atoussaint1976</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Alain (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330726">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Oh, and I'll await the sh!tstorm going my way if it ever meet my inbox :D</p>
<p>Alain</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Alain (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330727">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It appears to be SOP for anti-vaxxers/alt-med/etc advocates to have a very tenuous grasp of what freedom of speech and censorship actually mean.</p>
<p>Over this side of the Atlantic there is a publication called "What Doctors Don't Tell You", which is basically anti-SBM propaganda. A number of us, independently and collectively, took exception to it being sold in supermarkets, newsagents and the like alongside genuine news publications and protested to the retailers (result it was withdrawn from sale in many places). The owner of WDDTY complained about a campaign of censorship...</p>
<p>For extra laughs said owner has banned many folk, including me, from WDDTY's FB page for having the temerity to correct some matters of fact or point out that their "editorial board" don't actually have a valid and active medical qualification between them.</p>
<p>Now that IS censorship...</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Murmur (not verified)</span> on 01 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330728">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>This is exactly why I left Facebook.</p>
<p>Or was sanctimoniously kicked off of Facebook & thereby chose never to return.</p>
<p>I must admit though, I have a (to use one of Trump's brainless words) tremendous amount of more free time now that I'm not on Facebook. To do other things I enjoy. I let myself get consumed by it there for a few months. Life's honestly better without it, as there was a lot of damaging drivel just like this on there. Of course, now I am not as easily able to connect daily with many of my family members as well as long-time & distant friends, but it is what it is. Now I just have to make concerted efforts to reach out to people in other more traditional ways.</p>
<p>Facebook does not care about your connections anymore. They only care about your marketability.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Cam the Cat (not verified)</span> on 02 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330729">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#16 JP</p>
<p><i>There was a time when Facebook was trying to force everybody to use their real names, including trans people who used a chosen name rather than their given name, but it almost resulted in a mass exodus to “Ello” (where I have an account, but ended up never using it.) Facebook changed their policy pretty quickly after that.<i></i></i></p>
<p>This is right around when I was banned from Facebook for using my cat's name in Oct. 2014, & as far as I know, Facebook basically did nothing to change their policies at all. They may have given a few transgender drag queens their stage names on Facebook back because of their publicity, for they were being viciously targeted by bigots as well, but for the rest of us who were affected, this remains untrue.</p>
<p>You can still be banned for using a fake name, a nickname, or any other perversion or derivation of your name if someone reports you, & there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. You can try to appeal the ban, but they will demand you change your name to your legal name & provide them with proper forms of identification to further confirm who you really are. Some have been able to argue for their name, but a lot are lost to Facebook forever.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Cam the Cat (not verified)</span> on 02 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330730">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I have an online acquaintance who legally changed his name after having had his profile set up with his birth name for a few years or so. The "legal battle" and red tape he had to wade through with Facebook for them to update his name was quite frankly ridiculous.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Amethyst (not verified)</span> on 02 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330731">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Off topic (but is antivax BS ever off topic?) and I apologize if someone saw this elsewhere and linked it, but Daily Beast sent someone to the premier of "Vaxxed."</p>
<p><a href="http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/04/01/i-watched-the-anti-vaxx-doc-booted-from-tribeca-film-festival-and-it-was-insane.html">http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/04/01/i-watched-the-anti-vax…</a></p>
<p>Apparently there were ~20 people there. Oh, and it was nuts.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Frequent Lurker (not verified)</span> on 02 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330732">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I do have a sockpuppet FB account, along with my "real" one. I almost never use it. Maybe I'll see what I can do with it...Hmmmmm</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">MI Dawn (not verified)</span> on 02 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330733">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Alain,</p>
<p>The allegations have not been yet but thank you for the offer of help. </p>
<p>Here's an interesting link to a review of Vaxxed that was linked to in the New York Times. The anti-vax nuts are, of course, all over it. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.indiewire.com/article/vaxxed-from-cover-up-to-catastrophe-is-designed-to-trick-you-review-20160401">http://www.indiewire.com/article/vaxxed-from-cover-up-to-catastrophe-is…</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Stacy Herlihy (not verified)</span> on 02 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330734">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Reason # 37 I don't have a FB account.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Newcoaster (not verified)</span> on 02 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330735">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Hope.everything is well with you, too, JP? Always nice to see you.</p></blockquote>
<p>Doing okay. I'm on track with my academic duties, and I'll be finished for the semester by April 10th, hopefully, though I can take a few extra days if I need to. Flying out to visit family on the 15th; I'll get to see my mom and my brother and my two nephews, one of whom I haven't met yet, so that will be nice. And my brother has a dog (Skeeter, a chocolate lab), so there will be canine company as well.</p>
<p>Stayed over with a good friend last night who also has a dog, a very sweet pitbull. She's been working pretty hard on dog training; Nina was noticeably less "I will jump all over you and lick your ears!" than she was the last time I visited. We played some fetch with a green chew-toy ball she has, but, being a pitbull, it was more like tug-of-war most of the time, because she knows how to get the ball, but isn't terribly good at letting it go.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">JP (not verified)</span> on 02 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330736">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Lurker # 94</p>
<p>The Beast reporter was at an 11AM workday screening. 20 is decent attendance for that. The NYT reported later showings yesterday sold out. 8PM tonight is already sold out.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 02 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330737">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Can't people who don't want to use their real name on FB open an organization account, like the real AVWOS? I see posts from 'organizations' that are obviously made by some individual, e.g. replies in threads on their page. Can those folks NOT post on other pages under those accounts?</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 02 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330738">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>On the Tribeca Wrap- up thread<br />
I mention a link to a Friday viewing which featured a Q and A session with Andy and company.<br />
@ delbigtree links to the 15 minute you tube 'treat".<br />
I think that the Q and As were to later showings Friday ( and Saturday) not the first one.. possibly, there were about 10 rows of viewers but it was hard to see and only a very brief glimpse of the audience. A smattering of applause sounded like not-a-huge crowd.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 02 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330739">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@sadmar #100</p>
<p>You can post as a page you are an administrator for, but there has to be a regular account it is attached to.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">KayMarie (not verified)</span> on 02 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330740">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Another fringe lunatic being given way too much attention. Why are grown adults still giving people like this the time of day instead of, oh I don't know, using the block feature as it was intended? Don't get me wrong, she sounds like she's very good at throwing tantrums herself, and her website is a good example of her best tantrum by far, but what do you normally do with kids who throw hissy fits? You send them to their room without dinner. Murray probably also needs a diaper change, but she's not the only person out there like this and at the end of the day, the real problem here is with the shitty automated moderation features of Facebook, making them possible to be abused in the first place. Shitty people will do shitty things, as long as they're able to do shitty things.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Remiel (not verified)</span> on 02 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330741">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Remiel says (#103),</p>
<p>Shitty people will do shitty things, as long as they’re able to do shitty things.</p>
<p>MJD says, </p>
<p>In parallel, creative people will do creative things, as long as they’re able to do creative things.</p>
<p>Heather is devilishly creative in her efforts to temporarily suppress some FB bloggers....bad girl.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Michael J. Dochniak (not verified)</span> on 03 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330742">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Apparently someone has used the same techniques against the Vaccine Information Network. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.vaccinationinformationnetwork.com/corrupt-facebook-bans-41-vaccination-activists/">http://www.vaccinationinformationnetwork.com/corrupt-facebook-bans-41-v…</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Ethel (not verified)</span> on 04 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330743">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Crissyb@82: If Heather worked for Facebook she'd be fired in a heartbeat for this stuff.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">JustaTech (not verified)</span> on 04 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330744">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>MJD</p>
<blockquote><p>Heather is devilishly creative in her efforts to temporarily suppress some FB bloggers….bad girl.</p></blockquote>
<p>Wrong. People have been harassing Allison this way for over 2 years (a certain friend of the blog <a href="https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/facebooks-reporting-algorithm-abused-by-antivaccinationists-to-silence-pro-science-advocates/">wrote on it back then</a>). Reporting abuse has been used to supressive other groups for even longer. Heather is not innovative among antivaxers let alone among trolls in general. Persistent? Yes. Creative, unique, novel, innovative, particularly bright? The evidence does not support those statements.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">capnkrunch (not verified)</span> on 04 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330745">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ahem. <i>suppressive</i>.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">capnkrunch (not verified)</span> on 04 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330746">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'm wondering if this Heather is the same person I've come across in the Google Sphere who dabbles in horse breeding and racing, although the latest FB page update is 2013? She also seems to have linked to a business in Orange County with a list of customer complaints and a "F" BBB rating and her listed as CEO. There are comments on the old FB page about the stables and horses pictured (broodmares & yearlings) about the owner being anti semitic.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 07 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330747">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Lawrence @#110 - same.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Allison Hagood (not verified)</span> on 07 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330748">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Considering this pattern of posts you cite, violating Facebook's 'community standards', you have to wonder what community they are actually serving. Perhaps the Facebook employees writing the algorithm were vaccinated as children. Yeah, that would explain it. </p>
<p>That last was snark, in case you doubted it.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">triplepoint (not verified)</span> on 09 Apr 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330749">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Everyone seems to miss the point that I want addressed. Why did they take the death stats out of the form a mother has to sign before a child is inoculated. In the eighties when my children were little and getting these inoculation, on the Form I had to sign it listed the number of children who died as a result of the shots. They no longer appear on the form. I'm sorry but if you don't have anything to hide you don't hide anything. a parent has a right to know how many children died as a result of inoculation and decide for herself if it is worth the risk to inoculate her child. It angers me beyond belief that they have taken the right to choose away with the denial of Education. These parents have a right to be educated on the pros and cons of every inoculation and they have the right to decide or at least they should have the right to decide rather or not the risk outweighs the benefits. I in no way agree Heather's approach nor do I agree with her bigotry. I also do not deny scientific evidence I just want all of it revealed not the part that makes science look good. I have heard the song and dance about how it's impossible to know if the shot caused it alone or if the child had some other illness that contributed. No one is stupid enough to buy that line we hear stats everyday regarding to how many people get COPD from smoking lung cancer from smoking etc etc did you know that about 30% of all COPD cases are not caused by smoking? They can get the information on that but there is no way to tell if the inoculation causes the death or if it were a car wreck? That is actually their response.. If you're going to tell us this and that caused death to Millions but you can't narrow down the number of deaths caused by an inoculation, please expect hate group cases like this one to come out of the closet if you are going out of your way to drag them out , don't complain about it, you get no sympathy. Give us the truth and I will back you 100%</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">SANDRA SERGENT (not verified)</span> on 03 Jun 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330750">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Everyone seems to miss the point that I want addressed. Why did they take the death stats out of the form a mother has to sign before a child is inoculated. In the eighties when my children were little and getting these inoculation, on the Form I had to sign it listed the number of children who died as a result of the shots. They no longer appear on the form.</p></blockquote>
<p>Um, are you talking about the VIS?</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 03 Jun 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330751">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Death stats on consent forms? I don't ever remember seeing that in the 1980s and 1990s when I had my kids vaccinated. Yes, I got VIS for all the vaccines, and remember it showed percentages of side effects/risks of the shot. But I don't recall any specific death stat (i.e. "10 children died in 1986 from this shot" or even "25 children have died from this shot").</p>
<p>Sandra - got a copy of those forms with death stats you can post somewhere? I'm curious.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">MI Dawn (not verified)</span> on 03 Jun 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330752">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ms. Sergent: "In the eighties when my children were little and getting these inoculation, on the Form I had to sign it listed the number of children who died as a result of the shots. They no longer appear on the form."</p>
<p>That is strange, because it was never on any form I signed in the 1980s when I got my first child vaccines. Could you provide some kind actual evidence?</p>
<p>Please do come up with the official USA statistics on how many children died from the vaccines during the 1980s and before.</p>
<p>"No one is stupid enough to buy that line we hear stats everyday regarding to how many people get COPD from smoking lung cancer from smoking etc etc did you know that about 30% of all COPD cases are not caused by smoking?"</p>
<p>No, we did not know that because you did not provide any verifiable documentation for that claim. But I do know there are other particulates that people breathe. There are issues with air pollution, coal dust from mining, dust in grain silos, etc. It is significant that smoking causes more than half of the cases, when everyone breathes in dust and air pollution. Especially since from 1965 on <a href="http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/tables/trends/cig_smoking/">less than half of the population smokes tobacco</a>. </p>
<p>"Give us the truth and I will back you 100%"</p>
<p>You first. Just provide us the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the diseases. </p>
<p>While you are coming up with actual evidence for your claims, just do a little math word problem for us. Here is the <a href="http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/data/statisticsreport.pdf">National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program statistics as of June 2016</a>, now look at the grand totals of the first table. Take the total number of vaccines given for the stated number of years (2,532,428,541 vaccines given between 2006 through 2014), then divide it by the total number of <i>compensated</i> claims (2211 claims). What is that number and what does it mean?</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 03 Jun 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330753">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I admit that I didn't see any forms in the '80s, because that would have been my grandchildren. However, I had my own children given every vaccine available in the '60s and '70s, and never saw any "death list." Since I was a survivor of 2 VPDs for which they were vaccinated, and was not ignorant of the injuries and deaths caused by VPDs, I probably wouldn't have paid much attention. I was the weird mother who argued with the pediatrician when he told me that smallpox vaccines were no longer given. He probably dined out on that story for months.</p>
<p>MY COPD is from smoking and I have never known anyone with that ailment for whom smoking was not the cause.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Ellie (not verified)</span> on 03 Jun 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330754">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Sandra – got a copy of those forms with death stats you can post somewhere?</p></blockquote>
<p>I seem to recall hearing this one before; at least, I distinctly recall wasting a lot of time searching back through documents on a related one that never panned out.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 03 Jun 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330755">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Everyone seems to miss the point that I want addressed.</i></p>
<p>How outrageous, no-one responded to Sandra's question before she asked it!</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 03 Jun 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330756">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Hi, Ellie. There are, in fact, people with COPD who have never smoked. My next door neighbor is an example. Here's a recent look at the literature:<br /><a href="https://www.uptodate.com/contents/chronic-obstructive-pulmonary-disease-risk-factors-and-risk-reduction?source=search_result&search=copd+nonsmoker&selectedTitle=2~150">https://www.uptodate.com/contents/chronic-obstructive-pulmonary-disease…</a>.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">brian (not verified)</span> on 03 Jun 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330757">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Hello, Brian. I'm sure there are other causes, especially in my area where lung disease is rampant. However, I was definitely speaking of my personal experience, and I do not know anyone who has/had COPD that wasn't caused by smoking or possibly secondhand smoke.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Ellie (not verified)</span> on 03 Jun 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330758">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Chris,</p>
<p>Is there a good source for how any of those compensations were for deaths?</p>
<p>Doing some very crude calculations based on the tables on pages 5 and 6 and assuming all deaths claimed were caused by vaccines, I get an upper bound estimate of death risk per vaccine administered of about 6 in 100,000,000.</p>
<p>So for the table on page 4, a maximum of about 17 people die each year in what might be caused by vaccinations.</p>
<p>For comparison, rougly 2500 -4800 people die in the U.S. each year from choking. So, for a population of 300 million eating 3 meals a day, about 1.5 people die per meal eaten.</p>
<p>So,on that basis, getting a vaccination is about 10 times as dangerous as eating your next meal.</p>
<p>Very crude, of course!</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">squirrelelite (not verified)</span> on 03 Jun 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330759">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Is there a good source for how any of those ompensations were for deaths?"</p>
<p>Um, yeah. Just read the tables, especially the column titles. You are not going to get details because of HiPAA. Yes, it exists, deal with it.</p>
<p>Dude, I know you are being provocative for a reason, so I have to ask about the incidences of encephalitis, high fevers, paralysis, deafness, pneumonia, and other issues with vaccine preventable diseases. These also need to be measured, for both as effects of the vaccines and the diseases. To neglect that statistic is totally dishonest.</p>
<p>"squirrelelite, (sarcasm noted) those questions are what Ms. Sergent should answer. Let us wait for her learned response to that particular math word problem.</p>
<p>Though I have asked this question more than once, and so far I have never received a relevant answer. It seems that those I ask have the very very very few internet accessible computing devices that lack a basic calculator. Which is very weird. Even my old internet idiot dumb flip phone had a calculator. I don't understand how someone who can comment on teh internets does not have access to a calculator.</p>
<p>Let us wait to see is Ms. Sergent ever comments on these pages again, or just does a Sir Brave Robin. I am voting on the latter.</p>
<p>"So,on that basis, getting a vaccination is about 10 times as dangerous as eating your next meal."</p>
<p>Except when you put in the frequency variable. I doubt you would have a live child it you decide to feed that child only on the days they are scheduled for a vaccine. The frequency between the infant vaccine schedule is about sixty days... I sincerely doubt most infants survive ten days without being fed.</p>
<p>As I think about it, your scenario is quite repugnant.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 03 Jun 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330760">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I have received another 30-day ban for this post, which in no way mentions a name other than the one of the person with whom I am actually conversing, and that person would not have reported this post:</p>
<p>"Hey, Melissa Kane, looks like the braintrust over at the Fail Wall doesn't have the moral integrity to screenshot your post accurately. Poor things."</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Allison Hagood (not verified)</span> on 08 Jun 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330761">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It turns out that Ms. Murray and her fellow harassers are creating fake profiles using my and other activists' names, and using those profiles to report posts that mention names even in conversations between friends.</p>
<p>So, Facebook has created a system in which no one may ever refer to anyone by a name under any circumstances, ever, even in conversations between friends.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Allison Hagood (not verified)</span> on 08 Jun 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330762">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Chris,</p>
<p>I really apologize if my scenario was repugnant.</p>
<p>I was just trying to compare the risk of vaccination based on the compensations, which is extremely low, with the risk of other common life activities.</p>
<p>Since Ms Sergent complains about extremely low probability risks not being mentioned, the onus is on her to show that is important enough to risk the much higher threat of the diseases.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">squirrelelite (not verified)</span> on 08 Jun 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330763">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I understand what you were doing, but I may have overthought it. I sincerely doubt Ms. Sergent would understand the frequency of the events. Good grief the drive to and from the doctor's office is more risky than the vaccine.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 08 Jun 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1330764">#permalink</a></em>
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</article></footer></article></section><ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/login?destination=/insolence/2016/04/01/an-antivaccine-activists-explains-how-she-uses-facebook-reporting-algorithms-to-harass-and-silence-pro-science-bloggers%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul>Fri, 01 Apr 2016 01:00:58 +0000oracknows22275 at https://scienceblogs.comCranks of a feather, part 2: Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. cozies up the Nation of Islam over SB 277https://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/06/22/cranks-of-a-feather-part-2-robert-f-kennedy-jr-cozies-up-the-nation-of-islam-over-sb-277
<span>Cranks of a feather, part 2: Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. cozies up the Nation of Islam over SB 277</span>
<div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Last Thursday I took note of a rather fascinating <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/06/18/cranks-of-a-feather-the-nation-of-islam-teams-with-antivaccine-activists-to-oppose-sb-277/">confluence of cranks</a> who have come together to oppose SB 277 in California. For those not familiar with SB 277, it is a bill currently under consideration in the California Assembly that would eliminate nonmedical exemptions to school vaccine mandates. It was <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/05/22/sb-277-advances-and-antivaccine-activists-lose-it-again/">passed by the Senate</a> last month, and a couple of weeks ago it cleared its first hurdle in the Assembly, having been <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/06/10/sb-277-clears-another-major-legislative-hurdle/">passed by the Assembly Health Committee</a> on a 12-6 vote. So now it's in the full Assembly to be debated, and it shouldn't be too long before it comes to a vote. As I've said many times before, when SB 277 was first introduced, I didn't consider its chances of becoming law to be that great, even in the wake of the Disneyland measles outbreak, which was just the sort of occurrence that helped to demonstrate the problem with pockets of low vaccine uptake in the state to the world. In the wake of the Disneyland measles outbreak, it became politically possible for Senator Richard Pan and Ben Allen to introduce SB 277 and actually have it considered, but even then I had a hard time envisioning SB 277 ever becoming law in the state that's a hotbed of antivaccine celebrities and antivaccine celebrity pediatricians such as Dr. Jay Gordon and Dr. Bob Sears.</p>
<!--more--><p>I was glad to be (probably) wrong, given that passage of SB 277 appears to have taken on an air of inevitability. True, it might still fail or be amended beyond recognition. Governor Jerry Brown might <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/11/07/california-children-betrayed-governor-jerry-brown-and-the-neutering-of-a-law-designed-to-make-vaccine-exemptions-harder-to-get/">betray California children again</a> by adding a signing statement to try restore a religious exemption, as he did with an earlier bill. However, that's looking less and less likely, particularly after its having made it through committee.</p>
<p>Certainly the antivaccine opposition is doing itself no favors. What do I mean by that? Well, the confluence of cranks to which I referred at the beginning of this post was <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/06/18/cranks-of-a-feather-the-nation-of-islam-teams-with-antivaccine-activists-to-oppose-sb-277/">antivaccine activists uniting with the Nation of Islam</a> and, by proxy, the Church of Scientology to oppose SB 277. Indeed, contemplating who's crankier, the antivaccinationists or the Nation of Islam is not a straightforward question, which made me wonder just what on earth antivaccinationists thought they would gain by allying themselves with a <a href="http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/groups/nation-of-islam">group that is racist and antisemitic</a>, preaching that white people are "devils," Jews are evil, and Adolf Hitler was a person to be admired. Add to that its belief in the <a href="http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/minister_louis_farrakhan_9/article_101093.shtml">Great Mother Wheel</a> or the Mother Plane, a human-built planet, a half-mile by a half-mile, a <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beliefs_and_theology_of_the_Nation_of_Islam#The_Mother_Plane">UFO that was seen by the prophet Ezekiel</a>. No wonder the Nation of Islam has an affinity for Scientology, although given how white Scientology's membership and leadership are it's strange that they seem to be making beautiful cranky music together.</p>
<p>Oddly enough, the reaction of various prominent antivaccine bloggers to this alliance with the Nation of Islam and the town hall meeting held at an LA Scientology building last Thursday featuring Brian Hooker and Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. has been almost <a href="http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/06/dr-toni-bark-on-ca-sb277.html">universally positive</a>—ecstatic, even. For example:</p>
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<blockquote cite="https://www.facebook.com/CaliforniansAgainstSB277/posts/1449154692070142">
<p>EPIC! We have not seen The People Rise Up in Unity like this since the 60's and 70's ended the Vietnam War. TRUTH and JUSTICE will Prevail in this Land!</p>
<p>Posted by <a href="https://www.facebook.com/CaliforniansAgainstSB277">Californians for Vaccine Choice</a> on <a href="https://www.facebook.com/CaliforniansAgainstSB277/posts/1449154692070142">Thursday, June 18, 2015</a></p></blockquote>
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<p>And:</p>
<blockquote><p>
FULL HOUSE! They try to split us up but they bring us closer together instead! People of all ages, nations, races all together to fight for our kids! You don't mess with the Nation of Islam, Robert Kennedy Jr. Or Brian Hooker! "You allow the same media who tells you that your baby got autism from natural causes, tell you about the Nation of Islam.There is wickedness in high places, the pharmaceuticals!" Tony Muhammad, speaking so much truth. ACTION ALERT, call legislators, numbers to call in pics!! #NOSB277 #CDCWHISTLEBLOWER #JUSTICEORELSE Brian Hooker, Eric Gladen, Wendy Silvers, Michelle Maher Ford, Julie Marsh Ed Arranga
</p></blockquote>
<p>Amazingly, longtime antivaccine activist and the originator of such antivaccine tropes as the claim that the Amish do not vaccinate and do not get autism, Dan Olmsted, was less than thrilled with this development. This just goes to show why Dan Olmsted is (usually) the blogger over at the antivaccine crank blog Age of Autism who tends to be relatively less objectionable. In a post entitled <a href="http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/06/age-of-autism-weekly-wrap-knock-knock-knocking-on-racisms-door.html" rel="nofollow">Knock-Knock-Knocking on Racism’s Door</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>
Sorry, but to my mind this is not a kumbaya moment. The Nation of Islam is a racist, bigoted, homophobic, woman-degrading hate group. I mean, isn’t it? It is. For Muhammad to compare the coverage of autism and the Nation of Islam is sickening, and it ought to sit poorly with us. It's also choice to talk about "people of all ages, nations, races all together to fight for our kids" and getting "closer together" when NOI doesn't really want white people around -- they want a separate state. ("Rather than preaching a message of unification, NOI calls for segregation and separatism," according to the Web site the blaze.com. "On the group’s web site, the denomination is clear that it wishes for African Americans to live separately from whites.")</p>
<p>Sometimes it's not the media that's your problem, it's the truth.
</p></blockquote>
<p>And:</p>
<blockquote><p>
I know many in the autism activism community believe there is no problem with this association, that you use what you have to get what you need. Sorry to disagree with that, Friends, but I do. Desperate times call for desperate measures, yes, but not deals with the (small d) devils of racism, bigotry and homophobia. </p>
<p> This brings us to our <em>reducto ad absurdum</em>: Would we go to an Aryan Nation event if they agreed with us? Is "Racists For Vaccine Choice!" a placard we are prepared to get behind? </p>
<p>Not the best week to ask that question.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Indeed.</p>
<p>I wonder if Olmsted is aware of the i<a href="http://www.mikerindersblog.org/breaking-news-its-official-the-nation-of-islam-and-church-of-scientology-are-one/">ncreasingly close connection</a> between the <a href="http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2011/06/07/black-supremacist-nation-of-islam-embraces-white-dominated-scientology/">Nation of Islam and the Church of Scientology</a>. If he isn't, his head will explode when he learns of it.</p>
<p>Be that as it may, one can't help but wonder why Mr. Olmsted is so surprised and taken aback. The antivaccine movement has always shown itself to be willing to make alliances of convenience and not to be too concerned about whom it allies itself with. To answer Mr. Olmsted's question, my prediction is that a significant percentage of the antivaccine movement would indeed ally itself with the Aryan Nations if it saw an advantage. In this particular case, the specific advantage antivaccinationists perceive comes down to two words: "CDC whistleblower." I described the CDC whistleblower manufactroversy in <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/06/18/cranks-of-a-feather-the-nation-of-islam-teams-with-antivaccine-activists-to-oppose-sb-277/">more detail last time</a>, but I can repeat the CliffsNotes version here. Basically, Brian Hooker, at the behest of a <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/08/28/a-bad-day-for-antivaccinationists-a-retraction-and-the-cdc-whistleblower-issues-a-statement/">misguided CDC psychologist</a> (now known as the "CDC Whistleblower") incompetently "reanalyzed" a CDC dataset and <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/08/29/the-cdc-whistleblower-william-w-thompson-final-for-now-roundup-and-epilogue/">claimed to find a correlation</a> between <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/10/23/brian-hooker-and-andrew-wakefield-send-a-complaint-to-the-cdc-about-its-vaccine-research-everyone-yawns/">MMR vaccination and autism in African-American boys</a>. You can see quite quickly how black supremacist cranks like the Nation of Islam would latch onto a conspiracy theory like that, and they sure did.</p>
<p>And, in case you didn't think it was all about the vaccines, rather than "health freedom" or "parental rights," take a look at what Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. <a href="http://nypost.com/2013/09/09/diary-bombshell-rfks-secret-slams-against-al-sharpton-jesse-jackson-and-gov-cuomo/">used to think of the Nation of Islam</a> (and Jesse Jackson):</p>
<blockquote><p>
“His [Jesse Jackson's] love affair with [Nation of Islam leader] Louis Farrakhan and his Jewish xenophobia are also unforgivable,” Kennedy adds.</p>
<p>“I feel dirty around him, and I feel like I’m being used. I feel like with Jesse, it’s all about Jesse.”
</p></blockquote>
<p>Yet, on Thursday night <a href="http://tonyortega.org/2015/06/20/rfk-jrs-anti-vax-activism-hits-lowest-spot-ever-with-scientology-and-the-nation-of-islam/">we saw this</a>:</p>
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<p>In the video above, RFK, Jr. is discussing the Tuskegee syphilis experiment and—you guessed it—using the CDC whistleblower narrative to claim that SB277 is another Tuskegee syphilis experiment. His narrative is chock full of conspiracy theories about big pharma, the government, the "CDC whistleblower," and his full panoply of antivaccine pseudoscience. Hilariously, he even seems to be trying to adopt the cadences of a black preacher, as though he were trying to speak like Louis Farrakhan and Tony Muhammad. It was so bad that a credulous <a href="http://www.justicegazette.org/tuskegee-ii-sb277.html" rel="nofollow">antivaccine treatment of RFK's talk</a> was nice enough to summarize it for me so that I didn't have to find video of everything:</p>
<blockquote><p>
America's foremost environmental attorney Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., whistleblower and top scientist Dr. Brian Hooker and Minister/civil rights leader Tony Muhammed addressed a standing room only crowd about California's new Tuskegee Experiment, SB 277. Robert Kennedy calls this bill "Tuskegee Times 200,000" because of the disproportionate extent of the African-American injuries and deaths that SB 277 is scientificatlly projected to create. With the facts exposed, will the California Assembly vote to adopt what is now considered the most racist bill in California's history? Will Jerry Brown sign a bill that will especially target Blacks with unnecessary injuries and deaths?
</p></blockquote>
<p>Brian Hooker a "top scientist"? That's rich, really rich. Here's a guy who <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/06/18/cranks-of-a-feather-the-nation-of-islam-teams-with-antivaccine-activists-to-oppose-sb-277/">bragged about the simplistic approach</a> he took to reanalyzing the CDC dataset, which, recall, involved analyzing case control data as a cohort study and failing to control for basic confounders. In any case, apparently RFK, Jr. <a href="http://www.justicegazette.org/tuskegee-ii-sb277.html" rel="nofollow">got really despicable</a>. He claimed that the CDC "played with the numbers" to get rid of the autistic kids to "flatten out the numbers," with a jaunty explanation that ""statistics don't lie but statisticians do," by also claiming that statistics can show that"...sex doesn't make you pregnant" by getting rid of all the pregnant women in the study of people who have sex the same way they get rid of all the vaccine-injured participants in the studies into whether vaccines cause injuries. According to this same report, Kennedy noted that, if the CDC hadn’t lied, they could have saved 250,000 Black children who today are crippled by debilitating neurological illnesses, comparing it to the the Tuskegee Experiment, which "only" affected 399 individuals.</p>
<p>You get the idea. If you've been a regular reader her for the last year, you're familiar with all these pseudoscientific conspiracy theories.</p>
<p>While I commend Dan Olmsted for actually having a problem with associating with the Nation of Islam based on its history and teachings, I'm afraid he's very much in the minority. For instance, get a load of <a href="http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/06/age-of-autism-weekly-wrap-knock-knock-knocking-on-racisms-door.html?cid=6a00d8357f3f2969e201b7c7a222d6970b#comment-6a00d8357f3f2969e201b7c7a222d6970b" rel="nofollow">this commenter remonstrating with Olmsted</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>
Have you watched the entire meeting? I cannot believe that you have for all that I saw was 100% truth and unity in action. As a Canadian, I feel we are finally seeing a coming together where the media will be called out and politicians will be held to what is true and right. I am sure the black community will be disparaged for what they will do and more games will be played to try and divide and conquer us. Finally, though, I feel this movement for medical freedom and integrity has wings.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Crank magnetism overcomes all.</p>
<p><strong>ADDENDUM:</strong> Just this morning, Kent Heckenlively, too, is ecstatic about this new alliance with the Nation of Islam and the Church of Scientology, writing a post that wasn't published when I wrote this last night, <a href="http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/06/the-battle-for-california-part-4-the-nation-of-islam-and-the-church-of-scientology-join-the-fight-ag.html" rel="nofollow">The Battle for California, Part 4 - The Nation of Islam and the Church of Scientology Join the Fight Against SB 277</a>. He reveals its roots, which were in Autism One in Chicago, where, apparently, Brian Hooker, Barry Segal, Eric Gladen, Shiloh Levine, and Robert Kennedy, Jr. had met with Minister Louis Farrakhan, whom Heckenlively portrayed as "deeply disturbed by the information" about the "CDC whistleblower" and the made up claim that the CDC had "covered up" a correlation between vaccines and autism in African-American boys. The first part of Farrakhan's reaction:</p>
<blockquote><p>Maybe it shouldn't have surprised Dr. Hooker to find himself at a United Methodist Church in Los Angeles on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 listening to Minister Farrakhan preach to an inter-faith audience of approximately 1,400 people. Near the end of his speech, Farrakhan called on the group to oppose SB 277 and urged them to call their Congressional representatives and demand that Dr. William Thompson be subpoeaned to appear before the American people and tell the truth about what had been done. Minister Farrakhan pledged to support this effort. On October 10, 2015 there will be a large march in Washington D. C. to commemorate the 20th anniversary of the Million Man March. Two weeks later, on October 24, 2015, the Nation of Islam will lead a protest at the CDC demanding that Dr. Thompson appear before Congress.</p></blockquote>
<p>The funniest line of Heckenlively's post? Obviously this one:</p>
<blockquote><p>Dr. Hooker was impressed by Minister Farrakhan's command of the science. As a scientist, Dr. Hooker finds most people mess up the science when they try to talk about it, but it was clear to Hooker that Farrakhan had listened closely. </p></blockquote>
<p>Here's a hint: If Brian Hooker is "impressed with your command of the science," you're doing it wrong. Very, very wrong.</p>
<p>No, wait. This is even funnier:</p>
<blockquote><p>I believe it is incumbent upon us as a community to admit our shortcomings. We have not been good protestors. We do not know how to defend ourselves against powerful interests. Although we may be good warriors for our children, we are outmatched in the political arena. The Nation of Islam and the Church of Scientology are superb warriors in the political struggle. When putting together a coalition our partners will have strengths and weaknesses. I welcome them to the fight and encourage others to do the same. I say let us defend our children and hold any disagreements we may have among the various groups for a later time when our common enemy lies defeated on the battlefield.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yep. Let's team up with those racist, Hitler-admiring conspiracy theorists and their newfound best buds, a religion made up based on the writings of a science fiction author whose adherents are known for fanaticism and harassing critics. Seriously, Kent Heckenlively should watch <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Going_Clear_(film)">Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief</a>.</p>
<p>I say again: Do antivaccine activists really think that teaming with groups like the Nation of Islam and the Church of Scientology will help them defeat SB 277? If the opposition to SB 277 was disreputable before, it goes beyond disreputable now.</p>
<p><strong>ADDENDUM #2:</strong> Now <a href="http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/06/the-battle-for-california-part-4-the-nation-of-islam-and-the-church-of-scientology-join-the-fight-ag.html?cid=6a00d8357f3f2969e201b7c7a28333970b#comment-6a00d8357f3f2969e201b7c7a28333970b" rel="nofollow">Greg has chimed in</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>Thanks Kent for seeing the sense in accepting NOI support in fighting for the health of our kids. But wait!! Orac and his minions are sharing how crazy we are associating with NOI. I don't know --I am starting to rethink things now! Orac loves us and wants the best for us 'cranks, quacks, and conspiracy theorists'. He cares passionately about what goes on here in our little 'wretched hive of anti-vaxx scum'. Maybe we should just continue to engage them with our polite, reasoned arguments, and cooler heads will prevail and they will eventually see our point of view. LMAO!</p></blockquote>
<p>No, Greg is, as usual, dead wrong. That was mockery and glee. Actually, I'm lovin' it that RFK, Jr. and his fellow antivaccine activists are getting in bed with the Nation of Islam and the Church of Scientology to rally opposition to SB 277. If those on the fence about the bill, perhaps over issues of health freedom or parental rights, had any doubts about the reasonableness of the opposition, those doubts will be magnified 1,000-fold by seeing RFK, Jr. getting on stage with a high ranking leader of the Nation of Islam (Tony Muhammed) and going full antivaccine crank conspiracy theorist (but I repeat myself) in a Church of Scientology building while bragging about having met with Louis Farrakhan. Seriously, Greg, I want to see more of this, as it makes the job of those supporting the bill much easier.</p>
<p>More, please.</p>
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<span>Sun, 06/21/2015 - 21:12</span>
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<section><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1303270" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1434938996"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The level of delusionality in the comments to Olmsted's piece is truly something to behold. Julie M:</p>
<blockquote><p>Think Chicago. Right now, the news and evidence are spreading through the black community like a lightening bolt. It's happening fast enough that the assorted pharma and fed operatives are overwhelmed to try and stop it.</p></blockquote>
<p>Catherine:</p>
<blockquote><p>Was the Charleston killer mind-controlled to set off a race riot or perhaps focus Black attention away from NOI revelations about CDC eugenics via vaccines which I understand is spreading like wildfire amongst the Black community?</p></blockquote>
<p>It's fantastic: there's just some sort of amorphous Black blob, but the AoA commentariat has its ear to the ground. The NOI is somehow going to repeat the Million Man March. On Atlanta. Despite being leaderless and with a dwindling membership.</p>
<p>Seriously, these people have never heard of W. Deen Mohammed. "Divine Universe":</p>
<blockquote><p>Farrakhan has apparently caused a rift within NOI by speaking out against the blanket condemnation of homosexuality, in a sense <b>attempting to modernize American Islamic practices</b>.</p></blockquote>
<p>Gus the Fuss, Gerg, etc., think "angry black men" will be spilling into the streets, or something, as though that were the NOI's shtick in the first place.</p>
<p>Strangely, nobody seems to have remembered the squeeing over the <i>Atlanta Blackstar</i>. Not only is this going to end with a whimper, mark my words, it's going to do so too quickly for Jay Electron even to leave them with an anthem – nothing in so much as the <i>De——er</i> this week, and Hooker Skülter's grand aspirations are toast.</p>
<p>And this is <i>without</i> even pointing out that Hooker's own results showed <b>no</b> "signal" even in the most egregious, Table 2, if one vaccinated on time.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 21 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303270">#permalink</a></em>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1303271" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1434941360"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Oddly enough, the reaction of various prominent antivaccine bloggers to this alliance with the Nation of Islam and the town hall meeting held at an LA Scientology building last Thursday [...] has been almost universally positive—ecstatic, even.</p></blockquote>
<p>A mark of the true die-hard believers.<br />
A few decades ago, public protests organized by dwindling French far-left political parties which resulted in, top, 200 people congregating locally, were celebrated as "an historical meeting".</p>
<p>This disconnect from reality only hastened the dwindling part.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Helianthus (not verified)</span> on 21 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303271">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>spreading through the black community like a <b>lightening</b> bolt</i><br />
The slip, it is Freudian.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 21 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303272">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1303273" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1434944279"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>what is now considered the most racist bill in California’s history?</i></p>
<p>"In California's history"? This is hippocampectomy-level amnesia. Perhaps if history, for the anonymous antivaxxer, stretches only as far back as Thursday lunchtime.</p>
<p>Note too the use of the the Kevin Bell / Johnny Chav empassiviser. The anonymous antivaxxer had the choice of owning the words, and writing "what I consider" -- which would have been stupid but honest -- or hiding between the passive mood and <i>faux</i> vox-pop... and quelle surprise, he or she preferred the Gutless Sh1tweasel option.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 21 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303273">#permalink</a></em>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1303274" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1434945598"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>A few decades ago, public protests organized by dwindling French far-left political parties which resulted in, top, 200 people congregating locally, were celebrated as “an historical meeting”.</i></p>
<p>"Now that we have purged the last of the reformists and moderates who were holding us back, victory is inevitable!"</p>
<p>Sounds like the antivaxxers have a denialist fantasy in which Kennedy fills the role of Arrowroot son of Arrowshoot, turning up with the Army of the Dead Nation of Islam to turn the tide of battle.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 21 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303274">#permalink</a></em>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1303275" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1434946595"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Now Kent Heckenlively is ecstatic about antivaccinationists' new alliance with the Nation of Islam:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/06/the-battle-for-california-part-4-the-nation-of-islam-and-the-church-of-scientology-join-the-fight-ag.html">http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/06/the-battle-for-california-part-4-the…</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303275">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1303276" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1434948285"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Yes, because aligning with a group that has become increasingly irrelevant to the black community at large, mostly because of its stringent anti-gay, anti-white, and anti-Jewish tenants, plus the recent alliance with the Church of Scientology, which is also suffering under a deluge of bad press and ever dwindling membership, will be great for their cause.....</p>
<p>If there intent is to be viewed as crazy, bigoted and irrelevant - the anti-vax movement is doing a fantastic job.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303276">#permalink</a></em>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1303277" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1434949847"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ hdb</p>
<blockquote><p>Sounds like the antivaxxers have a denialist fantasy</p></blockquote>
<p>Eh, Kent Heckenlively <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/07/25/how-they-view-us-mike-adams-and-kent-heckenlively-edition/">was seeing himself as Aragorn</a>, isn't it?</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Helianthus (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303277">#permalink</a></em>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1303278" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1434951966"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>America’s foremost environmental attorney Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.</i></p>
<p>Granted that environmental law is not my field, and that this press release was issued by his hosts, but when was RFK Jr. ever known as America's foremost environmental attorney? The first I heard of him in his own right was during the brouhaha over his infamous 2005 book, and he's been primarily known since then as a leading anti-vax nut. Before then, of course, he would have been known as the son of Sen. Kennedy and the nephew of President Kennedy.</p>
<p>Also, is it just me, or is there an implied threat behind that "Justice or Else" slogan? The specific threat is not described, but that's a phrasing people normally use to indicate that There Will Be Consequences if you do not comply with their "request".</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303278">#permalink</a></em>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1303279" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1434955719"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I cannot believe that you have for all that I saw was 100% truth and unity in action. </p></blockquote>
<p>Ah dear idiotic Cia Parker, who wouldn't know the truth if it reared up and bit her on the bum.</p>
<p>The crazies have really come out of the woodwork on those two threads: Bob Moffitt, Greg, Guss the Fuss. </p>
<p>It is going to be a trainwreck and make fascinating viewing. The NOI are going to be a poisoned chalice to the No on SB277.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">ChrisP (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303279">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>the Church of Scientology are superb warriors in the political struggle</p></blockquote>
<p>I'd be careful about cozying up too closely to the Co$. I mean, did they learn nothing from their experience with Jake Crosby?</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Todd W. (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303280">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>There is something loathsomely ironic about antivaxers who use Holocaust imagery to push their agenda, while simultaneously cozying up to the Nation of Islam, which has a long history of engaging in Holocaust denial and other grotesque examples of anti-Semitism.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/adl/uncommon-ground/noi-and-denial.html">http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/adl/uncommon-ground/noi-and-de…</a></p>
<p>Iit's not that surprising, since anti-Semitic themes have frequently been employed by antivaxers.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.backfromnature.org/2015/04/anti-semitism-in-anti-vaccine-movement.html">http://www.backfromnature.org/2015/04/anti-semitism-in-anti-vaccine-mov…</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Dangerous Bacon (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303281">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>OT but concerns autism and cranks : in Switzerland, the "First Immune" clinic, which practiced GcMAF injections for cancer, autism etc has been closed after the death of five patients.<br />
ImmunoBiotech, the society promoting this treatment (based in Guernesey), is currently under investigation from other countries.<br /><a href="http://www.24heures.ch/vaud-regions/lausanne-region/clinique-privee-vaudoise-enquete-penale-cinq-morts/story/12349881">http://www.24heures.ch/vaud-regions/lausanne-region/clinique-privee-vau…</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">LouV (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303282">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Olmstead</p>
<blockquote><p>according to the Web site <b>the blaze.com</b>.</p></blockquote>
<p>Isn't <i>the blaze</i> Glen Beck's current padded cell? It is crackpots all the way down and all the way horizontally</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Militant Agnostic (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303283">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Isn’t the blaze Glen Beck’s current padded cell?</i></p>
<p>I believe it is, but every once in a while, Beck gets one right (e.g., during the Cliven Bundy standoff last year, Beck, who is a part-time rancher himself, correctly identified Bundy as a moocher). The SPLC, who specialize in tracking hate groups, say similar things about NOI's ideology.</p>
<p>Could Olmstead be employing a subtle strategy of quoting the biggest kooks among his allies' critics as a way of discrediting said critics? Maybe, although that's pretty deep thinking by Olmstead if that's what he's doing. More likely, Olmstead is himself a fan of Beck, and quoting the latter's (in this case, well-supported) opinion to bolster his case.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303284">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Dangerous Bacon </p>
<p>Antivaccinationism,like anti-semitism is a powerful crank magnet.Hate conquers all and makes for some very strange bedfellows.I am reminded <a href="http://www.vice.com/read/when-malcolm-x-met-the-nazis-0000620-v22n4">another alliance</a> the NOI made once upon a time.An alliance with one <a href="http://www.whitman.edu/spark/rel355fa07_Johnson.html">George Lincoln Rockwell</a>.Will history repeat itself over vaccines?Who knows?</p>
<p>One might argue appropriating the use of the term "Holocaust" from the Jews,as well as the Star of David,would be the ultimate act of anti-semitism.Since it minimizes what the Jews experienced in Europe from 1933-45.</p>
<p>I can see where even "movement" antivaxers like Olmstead.who might have problems with these alliances.might be sacrificed and thrown overboard for the betterment of "the cause".</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Roger Kulp (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303285">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Don't forget how the anti-vaccine movement has allied itself with Genesis II Church to promote MMS. Despite claiming to be non-religious, they were quick to play the "religious freedom" card when Trading Standards agents aided their sales pitch "church service" in Farnham, England one week ago, as the hyperbolic video below shows: </p>
<p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGaDqUfg8pE">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGaDqUfg8pE</a></p>
<p>Genesis II Church does have a weird theology, though, that Kerri Rivera has been reluctant to discuss in public. Jim Humble claims to be a billion year old god from the Andromeda galaxy who used to move solar systems for fun and accepted a mission from the "space navy" to watch over Earth. He devoted a badly-edited two hour YouTube video to his supposed life story:</p>
<p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf3uI73G2ZE">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf3uI73G2ZE</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Sebastian Jackson (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303286">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>And yet more insight into the anti-vax mindset - they actually believe that the more we criticize their alliance with the NOI, the better of an idea it is....I mean, our criticism could have nothing to do with the fact that the NOI is anti-gay, anti-white, anti-Jewish, and holds a host of other bigoted positions.....</p>
<p>To say nothing of its clear association with the Church of Scientology & it's associated baggage.</p>
<p>So, I'm thinking that these groups obviously deserve one another & wish them the best of luck with all of their future endeavors.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303287">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Helianthus #8</p>
<p>The good Doktor is referring to "Bored of the Rings", a spoof of,amongst other things, Tolkien: Arrowroot is the Aragorn equivalent.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Murmur (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303288">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Beck <a href="http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/02/03/beck-says-vaccine-controversy-highlights-how-we-are-living-in-the-days-of-galileo/">Antivaxers are like Galileo</a>.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Roger Kulp (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303289">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>And let's pause to remember - for it doth not assist Mr Kennedy or Rev Farrakahn - that it was the American Academy of Pediatrics and the public health service who, in 1999, announced a theoretical risk from thimerosal.</p>
<p>Not parents, not anti-vaxxers, not even at that point trial attorneys. The medical establishment.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Brian Deer (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303290">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Murmur #19</p>
<p>Oh. I missed the reference. Thanks :-)</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Helianthus (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303291">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Does anybody have any idea what Olmsted claims to be his occupation?</p>
<p>He can't be a journalist, because a journalist would be on the phone, reporting on the death of Dr Jeffrey Bradstreet, and perhaps putting to bed the rumor that he killed himself after a visit from the FBI. </p>
<p>Instead, he's posting blow-jobs for a mob of racists, anti-semites and homophobes, who are evidently now part of his extended family.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Brian Deer (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303292">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Brian Deer @ 23<br />
Maybe Olmstead is on the payroll of <a>the Unification Church</a>?More links to Scientology,and even RFK Jr. I see.</p>
<p>Is there a a link to the Unification Church,Scientology,and Age of Autism,that most of us are missing?</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Roger Kulp (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303293">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><a href="http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2006/11/07/autism-scientology-and-the-moonies/">http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2006/11/07/autism-scientology-and-the-…</a></p>
<p>HTML failure?</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Roger Kulp (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303294">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Interesting how someone who describes vaccination as a "holocaust" joins forces with an organization that itself operates concentration camps:<br /><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hole_%28Scientology%29">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hole_%28Scientology%29</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">TBruce (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303295">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Coming soon on Who the (Bleep) Did I Marry?<br />
- The Cheryl Hines Story.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">TBruce (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303296">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I think our Lord Draconis will be most pleased with the success of our latest operation "Petard Hoist". The cultivation of the most unlikely and self-destructive alliances was no easy task by our operatives. We should keep our eyes on Greg, quite a clever one, who seems to be on the verge of spotting our cunning plan.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303297">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>RFK Jr. might just as well have gone to the graves of his father and his uncles and voided his bladder on them.<br />
Kennedys everywhere have had their names disgraced, even the ones not related.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Old Rockin' Dave (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303298">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Miss this transcript of Dr. Brian Hooker's speech at the link? Perhaps the physicians here would benefit from directly reading the cited science? Hold your nose and dive in, I implore you. Debunk, explain, or join:</p>
<p> "Autism and neurological injury due to vaccinations are extremely important problems specific to the African American community. There are strong evidences in the scientific literature that African Americans may be more susceptible to vaccine injury and may also have increased susceptibility to neurological disorders such as autism. The most reliable studies show that autism incidence is higher in African Americans as compared to Caucasians. </p>
<p>Durkin et al. (published in 2010 in the journal PLOS One) applied a correction to autism incidence to account for under-reporting at lower socioeconomic status and found that autism incidence was about 25% higher in African Americans as compared to Caucasians. This was determined in a nationwide study using the CDC’s Autism and Developmental Disability Monitoring Network. Further, in a study by Becerra et al. (published in 2014 in the journal Pediatrics), it was shown that the incidence of autism among African Americans in Los Angeles County was higher than that of Caucasians. The effect was most profound in foreign-born blacks (living in the U.S.) with a 76% greater risk of autism as compared to U.S. born whites. The effect was also seen to a lesser extent (14% greater risk) in U.S. born blacks. However, when considering children with severe autism (autism with mental retardation), Becerra et al. found that the incidence was much higher in foreign-born blacks (163% greater) as well as U.S. born blacks (52% greater) as compared to U.S. born whites. This pronounced effect was not observed in any other race category considered.</p>
<p>In terms of vaccine injury, let me be clear – I am not anti-vaccine. I want safer vaccines that protect and not harm children. I want populations vulnerable to vaccine injury to be identified and protected as well. You don’t call someone who wants safer automobiles, “anti-car”. Similarly, it is ridiculous to refer to vaccine safety advocates as “anti-vaccine.”</p>
<p>In terms of vaccine injury, the study by Gallagher et al. (published in 2010 in the Journal of Toxicology and Environmental Health, Part A) showed that blacks were at significantly greater risk of regressing into autism after receiving the thimerosal-containing Hepatitis B vaccination series as infants. Thimerosal is a mercury-based preservative that is used in some vaccines in multidose vials and is still used in the flu shot, the tetanus vaccine and meningococcal pneumonia vaccine and is also in trace amounts (sufficient to cause harm) in the Hepatitis B, Hemophilus influenza B (HiB) and DTaP vaccines. The data show a 5.53 times greater risk of autism for black boys receiving the thimerosal-containing HepB vaccine series versus those black boys not receiving any HepB shot. White boys did not show a statistically significant risk in this instance. </p>
<p>Further, background information released by the CDC whistle blower, Dr. William Thompson, showed that the CDC found higher risks of autism in black children who received the MMR vaccine on time versus those that received the vaccine after 3 years of age. Unpublished data released by the CDC whistle blower show that black boys were up to 3.36 times greater risk of receiving an autism diagnosis when they received their first MMR vaccine prior to 36 months of age versus those black boys receiving their first MMR vaccine at or after 36 months of age. This effect was not observed in any other race category considered. </p>
<p>Although the CDC attempted to hide this information (which was discovered by Dr. Thompson on November 7, 2001), Dr. Thompson ultimately issued an August 27, 2014 press release through his attorney stating, “I regret that my coauthors and I omitted statistically significant information in our 2004 article published in the journal Pediatrics. The omitted data suggested that African American males who received the MMR vaccine before age 36 months were at increased risk for autism.” Dr. Thompson further stated in his press release, “My concern has been the decision to omit relevant findings in a particular study for a particular sub group for a particular vaccine. There have always been recognized risks for vaccination and I believe it is the responsibility of the CDC to properly convey the risks associated with receipt of those vaccines.”</p>
<p>Over the period of November 2013 to August 2014, I had over 30 separate phone conversations with Dr. Thompson. He initially reached out to me in an unsolicited phone conversation to my cell phone. Dr. Thompson and I had talked on the phone and exchanged email correspondences much earlier, between 2002 and 2004, back when I was trying to advise the CDC on their vaccine safety studies related to childhood neurodevelopmental disorders. However, the CDC curtailed my conversations with him in 2004 due to my family’s participation in the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program where we were seeking renumeration for my own son’s vaccine injuries. The phone calls from November 2013 to August 2014 were secret and Thompson did not let CDC officials know that he and I were talking as that could have cost him his employment. </p>
<p>I made the decision to record four of the last phone conversations I had with Dr. Thompson, without his knowledge, based on the revelation of harm to children, caused by the CDC’s very dysfunctional and even criminal vaccine safety program. These recordings were obtained legally and involved advice from legal counsel in each instance.</p>
<p>In my phone conversations with Thompson, he also discussed thimerosal containing vaccines. Dr. Thompson revealed adverse neurological outcomes specifically in boys exposed to thimerosal in vaccines within their first 7 months of life. This consisted of motor and phonic tics present in “neurotypical boys” tested in standardized tests. Although Dr. Thompson did not comment regarding the relationship between thimerosal and autism, he did note that tics were about five times more prevalent in autistic boys compared to the general population.</p>
<p>Dr. Thompson also described a culture of fraud in the CDC, an institution with a built-in conflict of interest regarding vaccine update versus vaccine safety. The CDC buys over $4 billion of vaccines each year from the pharmaceutical industry to distribute to the states’ public health departments. Vaccine uptake in the U.S. must be high for the CDC to get reimbursed for that purchase. Thus, vaccine safety scientists are under tremendous pressure not to find associations between vaccines and neurological adverse events, among others. He has been specifically told “point blank” from his superiors in multiple instances to not report such findings and to find ways using fraudulent statistical methods to obviate the results and falsely give vaccines a clean bill of health. Dr. Thompson stepped forward due to the agony of over 10 years of lying and covering up the real truth regarding vaccine injury. </p>
<p>I also wanted to talk about another specific whistle blower lawsuit, regarding MMR’s effectiveness. There is a False Claims Act lawsuit pending against Merck in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania, Case No. 10-4373 (CDJ). This case was brought by two former Merck virologists who were involved in the efficacy testing of the mumps portion of Merck’s MMR vaccine. According to these scientists, Merck engaged in fraudulent testing and data falsification to conceal the vaccine’s diminished efficacy. </p>
<p>As a result of Merck’s fraudulent scheme, the scientists allege, American children are being injected with a vaccine that does not provide the efficacy Merck claims it provides and does not provide the public with adequate immunization. According to the scientists, Merck’s MMR vaccine contributed to the recent mumps outbreaks in the U.S. Late last year, the Court denied Merck’s motion to dismiss the case and the case is in the discovery phase.</p>
<p>SB277 removes the last “check and balance” in preventing vaccine injury in children, parental consent rights. In the past, parents have been able to opt out of vaccines for their children based on personal beliefs, without jeopardizing school attendance. SB277 will change all that whereas the only children that will be able to attend school will be either fully vaccinated or receive a very “difficult to obtain” medical exemption based on some condition that would increase her/his susceptibility to vaccine injury. These exemptions are rare and extremely difficult to obtain. Based on CDC guidelines, even if an earlier vaccine leads to seizures or the death of a sibling, the child is still not exempt and this is being widely misrepresented by the proponents of SB277. Homeschool children will be exempt from the law but this is just not an option considering the large number of two income families in our underserved communities.</p>
<p>I urge you to contact your state Assembly members and tell them to vote NO on this bill. I urge you to reach out to the legislative black caucus members and educate them about the CDC whistle blower and other issues regarding vaccine injury that make this bill nothing but medical tyranny. </p>
<p>We want Congress to subpoena Dr. William Thompson. In fact, Dr. Thompson himself wants to be subpoenaed so the entire truth about the CDC can become public record. I urge you to contact key Congressional offices to ask that Dr. Thompson be subpoenaed in an open Congressional hearing. The truth needs to come out, period, and this is one way to bring the truth to light."</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">reader (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303299">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>reader, you missed the part where Hooker completely hacked the CDC data and there is no increased risk of an ASD in Black children. Merck's mumps nonsense has zero to do with this. Why don't you post actual citations instead of regurgitations of a known crank.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303300">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@reader - here's your rebuttal:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2014/09/mmr-cdc-and-brian-hooker-media-guide.html">http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2014/09/mmr-cdc-and-brian-hooker-media…</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303301">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>We want Congress to subpoena Dr. William Thompson. In fact, Dr. Thompson himself wants to be subpoenaed so the entire truth about the CDC can become public record. I urge you to contact key Congressional offices to ask that Dr. Thompson be subpoenaed in an open Congressional hearing. The truth needs to come out, period, and this is one way to bring the truth to light.”</p></blockquote>
<p>And another thing you twit. If Thompson is willing to testify before congress, he doesn't <b>have to</b> be subpoenaed. Congress doesn't appear to be interested in another clown show by anti-vaxxers.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303302">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Lawrence</p>
<p>Thanks for sharing my post. Also, pertinent to Hooker's bit about parental consent, I put up this post this morning on how the whole "choice" argument is nothing but a hollow smokescreen: <a href="http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2015/06/SB277-Opposition-Smokescreen-of-Parental-Choice.html">http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2015/06/SB277-Opposition-Smokescreen-o…</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Todd W. (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303303">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Does anybody have any idea what Brian Deer claims to be his occupation?</p>
<p>He can’t be a journalist, because a journalist would be on the phone trying to get an interview with CDC fugitive Poul Thorsen and CDC whistleblower, Dr. William Thompson.<br /><a href="http://www.safeminds.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Thorsen-Background-Report-Nov-2012.pdf">http://www.safeminds.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Thorsen-Background-…</a><br />
He should also interview Florida Congressman Bill Posey to find out what happened to Thompson's 100,000 pages of CDC vaccine safety documents he was sent.</p>
<p>Instead, he’s posts Black Majik NLP words: "mob of racists", "anti-semite", and "homophobes", which are evidently now part of his extended vocabulary.<br />
Isn't he a Fellow of East Anglia Institute of Name Calling?</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Toto "the Rock" (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303304">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Sciencemom<br />
"And another thing you twit. If Thompson is willing to testify before congress, he doesn’t have to be subpoenaed. Congress doesn’t appear to be interested in another clown show by anti-vaxxers."</p>
<p>Name calling is an admission of failure to produce a logical defense for your argument. If Thompson does not testify under oath, he doesn't have to tell the truth. His testimony can't be used in a court of law. I find it interesting that you refer to the CDC vaccine safety employee as a "clown." Evidently you support CLOWN APPROVED VACCINES.<br />
Thank you for making this clear.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Toto "the Rock" (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303305">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"reader" did you miss the blog posts here where Hooker's methodology was shredded by other scientists? Did you miss the blog posts here that announced that his paper was retracted and why?</p>
<p>There's a reason Hooker's testimony is being ignored and it's not a conspiracy.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">shay (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303306">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Durkin et al. (published in 2010 in the journal PLOS One) applied a correction to autism incidence to account for under-reporting at lower socioeconomic status and found that autism incidence was about 25% higher in African Americans as compared to Caucasians.</p></blockquote>
<p>I guess it <i>would</i> be a bit much to expect Hooker to <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2902521/table/pone-0011551-t003/">get things in the ballpark</a>.</p>
<p>Then again, given that I'm not seeing the "correction" anywhere, maybe he's just dishonest.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303307">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>We have really got to get a better class of troll on this blog. Toto & reader add nothing in their attempts to deny science.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">MikeMa (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303308">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>My, little doggie Toto just reeks of desperation now.....</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303309">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Are the other veterans who post here remembering what a rock is in military slang, I wonder.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">shay (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303310">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Toto doesn't seem to understand the difference between subpoenaed and testifying under oath, the latter one doesn't need to be subpoenaed to do. Thompson has allegedly stated his willingness to "testify". Add Toto to the anti-vaxx clown car.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303311">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>in Switzerland, the “First Immune” clinic, which practiced GcMAF injections for cancer, autism etc has been closed after the death of five patients.<br />
the death of Dr Jeffrey Bradstreet</i></p>
<p>Bradstreet was part of the GcMAF racket, so whatever he died of, it can't have been cancer.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303312">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The only reason I let trolls like Toto and reader post from time to time is that I figure my regulars like a good chew toy to play with. But you're right. Their schtick is getting staler by the day.</p>
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<footer><em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303313">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Further, in a study by Becerra et al. (published in 2014 in the journal Pediatrics), it was shown that the incidence of [AD] among African Americans in Los Angeles County [DDS data] was higher than that of Caucasians. The effect was most profound in foreign-born blacks (living in the U.S.) with a 76% greater risk of autism as compared to U.S. born whites. <b>The effect was also seen to a lesser extent (14% greater risk) in U.S. born blacks.</b></p></blockquote>
<p>Funny, the <a href="http://i.imgur.com/L2gPaX7.png">exact same thing</a> is seen in Hispanics. Kind of takes the wind out of your basic premise, eh, Brian?</p>
<blockquote><p>However, when considering children with severe autism (autism with mental retardation), Becerra et al. found that the incidence was much higher in foreign-born blacks (163% greater) as well as U.S. born blacks (52% greater) as compared to U.S. born whites. <b>This pronounced effect was not observed in any other race category considered.</b></p></blockquote>
<p><b><i>Now</i></b> you're <a href="http://i.imgur.com/fq6tm08.png">just lying</a>.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303314">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I, for one, don't mind numpties like Toto commenting; it reveals the whackaloon mindset of the typical anti-vaxxer. I do object however, when they become flat-out abusive and disgusting like Philip Hills. For what it's worth of course.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303315">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Toto doesn’t seem to understand the difference between subpoenaed and testifying under oath, the latter one doesn’t need to be subpoenaed to do.</p></blockquote>
<p>The basic idea is to somehow preserve <a href="http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/02/i-will-accept-your-surrender.html">this</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>Maybe you haven't really thought much about what it means that Dr. Thompson has been granted CONGRESSIONAL IMMUNITY.</p></blockquote>
<p>This originally came from <a href="http://vaxtruth.org/2015/02/dr-william-thompson-granted-official-whistleblower-status-and-immunity-cdcwhistleblower/">Marcella Piper-Terry</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p><b>UPDATE 02/01/2015: Sources have confirmed that Dr. William Thompson (senior scientist at The CDC) has been granted Official Whistleblower Status and immunity. This paves the way for Dr. William Thompson to go before the United States Congress and testify about the CDC FRAUD regarding vaccine safety and to explain the thousands of documents that have been turned over to congressional representatives.</b></p></blockquote>
<p>Once it was pointed out to them that you can't be "granted Congressional immunity" <i>without</i> being subpoenaed, the story mutated into its present form. (They <i>still</i> haven't figured out that "granted Official Whistleblower Status" literally <b><i>doesn't mean anything</i></b>, as far as I can tell.)</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303316">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Given how long it's been, I really wonder what Thompson has been doing all this time - I just have this picture of him sitting in his office at the CDC, playing Solitaire for the majority of the day.....</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303317">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>^ Oh, and "reader," now that I have wasted an hour going through those two papers, it's your turn:</p>
<blockquote><p>Debunk, explain, or join <b>capitulate</b></p></blockquote>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303318">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>You don’t call someone who wants safer automobiles, “anti-car”. Similarly, it is ridiculous to refer to vaccine safety advocates as “anti-vaccine.”</i></p>
<p>Actually, yes: if someone was claiming we need "safer" cars because they believed that cars were causing thousands of extremely improbable "adverse events," and they attributed the complete lack of evidence for this fact to a government conspiracy, I probably <i>would</i> call them anti-car. People don't typically believe obviously irrational things like that unless it resonates with them on an emotional level.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Sarah A (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303319">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>“granted Official Whistleblower Status” literally doesn’t mean anything, as far as I can tell</i></p>
<p>Presumably the nearest equivalent is when a federal employee goes to the Office of Special Counsel with information, and the OSC determines that the employee was not complaining frivolously and is therefore a legitimate whistleblower, protected from reprisals.<br />
Of course this is irrelevant because Thompson has <b>not gone through OSC channels</b> (preferring the channel of a press release) and is not under their coverage.</p>
<p>Goofling the cargo-cult incantation "Official Whistleblower Status" reveals that it is practically unknown outside of Thompson-related antivax frothing, while <i>inside</i> those circles its usage follows the principle that Capitalisation Gives Power.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303320">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@HDB - they don't understand science, they don't understand the law, the don't understand Federal Regulations, the don't understand the political process, etc, etc, etc.</p>
<p>It would probably be easy to articulate what they do understand, but for the life of me, I can't figure out what that is.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303321">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"easier" = faster (we really need an edit function)</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303322">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1303323" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1434986602"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Late last year, the Court denied Merck’s motion to dismiss the case</p></blockquote>
<p>I wouldn't get too excited (emphasis added):</p>
<p>"For purposes of deciding the Motions to Dismiss, <a href="http://ia700702.us.archive.org/17/items/gov.uscourts.paed.381331/gov.uscourts.paed.381331.61.0.pdf">this memorandum</a> [PDF] <b>takes as true</b> facts as alleged in the Amended Complaints....</p>
<p>"[T]he Court dismisses Count II, except for claims brought under the NYDAPA and the NJCFA; and, dismisses Count III, Count IV, Count V, and Count VI in their entireties."</p>
<p>All this really amounts to is a finding that Count I didn't fail <i>on the grounds of wholesale incompetence</i> in pleading. It says exactly nothing about the merits of the case.</p>
<p>Do get back to everyone on this bit, too, "reader."</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303323">#permalink</a></em>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1303324" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1434986788"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p> UPDATE 02/01/2015: Sources have confirmed that Dr. William Thompson (senior scientist at The CDC) has been granted Official Whistleblower Status and immunity. This paves the way for Dr. William Thompson to go before the United States Congress and testify about the CDC FRAUD regarding vaccine safety and to explain the thousands of documents that have been turned over to congressional representatives.</p></blockquote>
<p>Thank you again Narad and HDB. The above sounds like something Jon Rappaport would barf up (remembering how his "sources" saw Thompson escorted off the CDC campus by big, scary security thugs). It's just so precious to watch the various factions try to make this a thing.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303324">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>they don’t understand science, they don’t understand the law, the don’t understand Federal Regulations</i></p>
<p>If only there were some way of searching a collective network of computers to check whether a putative legal title or status actually <b>meant anything</b> before echoing the whole claim on one's own website</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303325">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1303326" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1434987995"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Presumably the nearest equivalent is when a federal employee goes to the Office of Special Counsel with information, and the OSC determines that the employee was not complaining frivolously and is therefore a legitimate whistleblower, protected from reprisals.</p></blockquote>
<p>I don't think that holds up. The Whistleblower Protection Act just <i>is</i>; OSC can seek redress (or serve as an amicus) after the fact for a Prohibited Personnel Practice, but there's simply no official "status" to speak of <i>until there's a violation</i>.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303326">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1303327" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1434988042"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Brian Hooker said: "In terms of vaccine injury, let me be clear – I am not anti-vaccine. I want safer vaccines that protect and not harm children."</p>
<p>Olmsted said: "We don't recommend any specific schedule. We suggest to parents they should vaccinate, or not, based on diligent research about the risks of the vaccines and the diseases."</p>
<p>Both of these views are being trashed wholesale on AoA, where those with open anti-vax views come out to play. It's fun to see them tear each other apart. How long will it be before Olmsted stops writing on AoA, as Mark Blaxill appears to have done? It can't be fun to see your "fans" disagreeing with you, particularly when it's an ethical issue such as seeking the support of NOI. This must be making Dan wonder if his fans have any ethics at all.....</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Broken Link (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303327">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1303328" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1434988946"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>One might note that there's a double-dip of failed aphorismology to be had at AoA: Not only does Heckenlively choose <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_you_live_in_interesting_times">this</a> as a graphic lede, Gerg <a href="http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/06/age-of-autism-weekly-wrap-knock-knock-knocking-on-racisms-door.html?cid=6a00d8357f3f2969e201b7c7a24ed3970b#comment-6a00d8357f3f2969e201b7c7a24ed3970b">attempts a put-down</a><a>:</a></p>
<blockquote><p>Seriously Dan and others, what new ideas can you share that you feel will be helpful in breaking through and advancing our cause? If you guys do not have anything new to offer then I am afraid I must bring up Einstein’s definition of insanity.</p></blockquote>
<p></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303328">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Gerg was always an equal-opportunity troller.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303329">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1303330" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1434989475"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Oh good grief the comments there are truly painful to read. The justifications for forging a partnership with the NoI are truly a wonder to behold. Let them have each other, they richly deserve one another.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303330">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The recent blow-up about the NOI just shows that AoA is loosing control of the tin-foil hat brigade.....</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303331">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1303332" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1434989826"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Any word lately on the <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/02/19/in-which-i-am-called-an-astroturfer-and-offered-an-unconditional-surrender-by-an-antivaccine-crank/#comment-386464">"hundreds of thousands of documents" provided by Thompson</a>, supposedly containing more smoking guns than Verdun? Any repetitions of Heckenlively's calls for unconditional surrender?</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303332">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>As "the Kid" has pointed out, Wakefield has been waving said papers on video for months now, but has yet to publish even a single one.....</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303333">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1303334" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1434990931"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Narad,Science Mom </p>
<p>A lot of those comments at AoA reek of desperation.Like most of you,I wonder if SB277 isn't going to be a watershed moment for the antis.Where the movement either implodes,or breaks into multiple factions at war with each other.</p>
<p>Besides <a href="https://www.facebook.com/thughealth/photos/a.1484637241815988.1073741828.1484601615152884/1577997242479987/?type=1&theater">the real crazies are on Facebook</a>.</p>
<p>The comments here are just as nutty as the photo is offensive.Read them all.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Roger Kulp (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303334">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1303335" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1434990958"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The Underground Bunker provided some background on the <a href="http://tonyortega.org/2015/06/20/rfk-jrs-anti-vax-activism-hits-lowest-spot-ever-with-scientology-and-the-nation-of-islam/#more-23449">NOI–$cientology</a> connection a couple of days ago.</p>
<p>This link is well worth following down:</p>
<blockquote><p>There’s really no wonder that <a href="http://tonyortega.org/2013/09/09/scientology-and-nation-of-islam-education-hucksters-marching-on-sacramento/">these hucksters</a> would oppose Sacramento’s decision to convince Californians to get their kids vaccinated. They’ve proven time and again that they’re interested in opposing science because it’s how they make money.</p></blockquote>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303335">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><a href="http://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/2178/9608/original.jpg?w=800&h">Kirstie Alley time</a>!</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303336">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Science Mom<br />
"Hooker completely hacked the CDC data and there is no increased risk of an ASD in Black children."<br />
LETS PROVE YOUR ASSERTION IN A COURT OF LAW.<br />
Let Congress subpoena Thompson and give him his day in court.</p>
<p>"Merck’s mumps nonsense has zero to do with this."<br />
"Specifically, the suit claims Merck manipulated the results of clinical trials beginning in the late 1990s so as to be able to report that the combined mumps vaccine, known as MMR-II (a revised version of the 1971 MMR shot containing a different strain of the rubella virus), is 95 percent effective, in an effort to maintain its exclusive license to manufacture it. This percentage is the benchmark used by the FDA to grant Merck approval to sell its original mumps vaccine in 1967. It is believed by vaccine authorities to guarantee herd immunity for people who have skipped on the shots.</p>
<p>However, instead of reformulating the vaccine whose declining efficacy Merck itself has acknowledged, the company reportedly launched a complicated scheme to adjust its testing technique so that it would yield the desired potency results. The virologists say they witnessed firsthand the fraud and were asked to directly participate in the dishonest testing, which was dubbed “Protocol 007″ and is outlined in great detail in the complaint."<br /><a href="http://www.forbes.com/sites/gerganakoleva/2012/06/27/merck-whistleblower-suit-a-boon-to-anti-vaccination-advocates-though-it-stresses-importance-of-vaccines/">http://www.forbes.com/sites/gerganakoleva/2012/06/27/merck-whistleblowe…</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Toto "the Rock" (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303337">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1303338" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1434994499"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>which made me wonder just what on earth antivaccinationists thought they would gain by allying themselves with a group that is racist and antisemitic, preaching that white people are “devils,” Jews are evil, and Adolf Hitler was a person to be admired.</p></blockquote>
<p>ITM, citizens:<br /><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBttESt67GA">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBttESt67GA</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Tim (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303338">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Narad @67 Kirstie Alley is in her 60s and her kids are 20+, so I don't quite get her point.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Ellie (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303339">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>This growing coalition of fruitcakes & nutbars needs a name.</p>
<p>May I humbly suggest:</p>
<p>Proud<br />
Antivaxers &<br />
Racists<br />
Allied w/<br />
Nation<br />
Of<br />
Islam &<br />
Delusional<br />
Scientologists.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Gray Squirrel (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303340">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1303341" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1435000866"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I had the impression that <a href="https://xkcd.com/882/">https://xkcd.com/882/</a> is, approximately, what Hooker did with the CDC data. Is that correct, or was it a less, um, <i>stupid</i> error?</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Ken (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303341">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Let <b>Congress</b> subpoena Thompson and give him his day in <b>court</b>.</i><br />
A train-wreck of cliches in which the fascist octopus steps on yet another rake.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303342">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>LETS PROVE YOUR ASSERTION IN A COURT OF LAW.</p></blockquote>
<p>All caps and courts of law do not decide matters of science. But you go right ahead and keep screeching that alongside your comrades-in-arms and don't forget your sandwich board with "I'm made of cheese" emblazoned across both sides.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303343">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I had the impression that <a href="https://xkcd.com/882/">https://xkcd.com/882/</a> is, approximately, what Hooker did with the CDC data. Is that correct, or was it a less, um, stupid error?</p></blockquote>
<p>If only. What Hooker did was <i>incompetent</i> and <i>dishonest</i>. He analysed the dataset with the wrong statistical model and he intentionally omitted important controls for confounding because neither produced the results he was looking for. It is the exact opposite of research.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303344">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ken, Brian Hooker did the 882 to the data set, but he also did something much, much stupider (is that a word or something I just remember from the playground?).</p>
<p>Brian Hooker, because he finds statistics hard and can't understand how to program software, decided that simple statistical methods were always better than those complicated ones. In doing so he broke the first rule of statistical methods: GIGO. You use the statistical test that is appropriate to the data set and question being asked.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">ChrisP (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303345">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><b>Excellent</b> AoA entry <a href="http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/06/the-battle-for-california-part-4-the-nation-of-islam-and-the-church-of-scientology-join-the-fight-ag.html?cid=6a00d8357f3f2969e201b7c7a2b902970b#comment-6a00d8357f3f2969e201b7c7a2b902970b">from Jenny</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>March On! But does it have to be October?</p>
<p>The Millions Against Monsanto march is Oct 17th in DC.</p></blockquote>
<p>That <a href="http://okneoac.org/millbrook/ch27">reminds me of a story</a>:</p>
<p>"During an early meeting after the Ashram had moved into the Big House, Tim had proposed to move the entire League to Europe, where they would proceed to march across the continent on a 'journey to the East,' gathering adherents as they went. For seasonal reasons, it would be necessary to get this show on the road in a matter of ten days or something like that.</p>
<p>"Everyone had thought this was a groovy idea, sort of, but Allan Marlowe raised a crucial objection which sank the whole project then and there:</p>
<p>"'But Tim,' he said, 'my robes won’t be ready by then.'"</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303346">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>May I humbly suggest</p></blockquote>
<p>It'd be nice if there were some way to add the HIV/AIDS denialism that crazy Leonard Horowitz, who is still popular with this crowd, <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20100204074250/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Horowitz">fed to Farrakhan</a>.</p>
<p>Then again, IIRC, at least Bayareamom owned up to that as well back when Ebola was a conspiracy and Kary Mullis was being quoted repetitively.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303347">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>The Battle for California, Part 4</i></p>
<p>I for one will be grievously upset if they start re-purposing <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJRonxTAj84">Blue Oyster Cult lyrics</a>.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303348">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Oooh but Science Mom, Brian is just a simple man, so in reanalyzing the data, he went with something simple, because as he says, "I think that in statistics, simplicity is elegance."</p>
<p>He's just simple, is our Brian.</p>
<p>"more smoking guns than Verdun" *adds to file*</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Delphine (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303349">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Sciencemom<br />
"He analysed the dataset with the wrong statistical model and he intentionally omitted important controls for confounding because neither produced the results he was looking for. It is the exact opposite of research."</p>
<p>AMAZING! With all his ignorant bumbling, Dr. Hooker came up with the same results as Thompson et al in their ORIGINAL study. Hooker has a phone recording of Thompson confirming this. Dr. Thompson is still employed by the CDC in the Vaccine Safety Division. HE HAS NEVER RECANTED HIS WRITTEN ADMISSION OF FRAUD REGARDING THIS STUDY.<br />
I have not heard ONE pro-vaxxer calling for Thompson's resignation!<br />
THEREFORE, pro-vaxxers are PRO-THOMPSON! They trust HIM to keep their snowflakes SAFE with SAFE AND EFFECTIVE vaccines.<br />
LOL! LOL! LOL! etc.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Toto "the Rock" (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303350">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Narad @67 Kirstie Alley is in her 60s and her kids are 20+, so I don’t quite get her point.</p></blockquote>
<p>When <i>Star</i> isn't even printing pics of her bloated arse then what's a washed-up attention whore gonna do.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303351">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Oooh but Science Mom, Brian is just a simple man, so in reanalyzing the data, he went with something simple, because as he says, “I think that in statistics, simplicity is elegance.”</p></blockquote>
<p>And managed to demonstrate that administering MMR according to the schedule nullifies the very "result" that he's now stuck peddling.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303352">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Their schtick is getting staler by the day."<br />
You are so right Orac. Brian Deer's posts are so embarrassing; it takes Toto to give them a stylish makeover.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Toto "the Rock" (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303353">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Here’s a hint: If Brian Hooker is “impressed with your command of the science,” you’re doing it wrong.</p></blockquote>
<p>This turns out to <a href="https://whyweprotest.net/attachments/alfraudie4-jpg.99400/">work both ways</a>.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303354">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>AMAZING! With all his ignorant bumbling, Dr. Hooker came up with the same results as Thompson et al in their ORIGINAL study. </p></blockquote>
<p>No he didn't</p>
<blockquote><p>Dr. Thompson is still employed by the CDC in the Vaccine Safety Division.</p></blockquote>
<p>No he isn't and hasn't been for years now.</p>
<blockquote><p>HE HAS NEVER RECANTED HIS WRITTEN ADMISSION OF FRAUD REGARDING THIS STUDY.</p></blockquote>
<p>So? He also hasn't recanted his admission of delusions and psychotic episodes.</p>
<blockquote><p>I have not heard ONE pro-vaxxer calling for Thompson’s resignation!</p></blockquote>
<p>Why would we?</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303355">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>As further background to my <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/06/22/cranks-of-a-feather-part-2-robert-f-kennedy-jr-cozies-up-the-nation-of-islam-over-sb-277/#comment-404681">comment 57</a> above, the ABA has summarized the state of affairs <a href="http://www.americanbar.org/content/newsletter/groups/labor_law/ll_flash/1212_abalel_flash/lel_flash12_2012spec.html">as of 2012</a>.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303356">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><blockquote>AMAZING! With all his ignorant bumbling, Dr. Hooker came up with the same results as Thompson et al in their <b>ORIGINAL</b> study.</blockquote>
<p>No he didn’t</p></blockquote>
<p>It would probably be simpler to concede the point, as "Thompson et al" is actually <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14754936">DeStefano et al.</a>, which found no correlation whatever.</p>
<p>I confidently presume this was a reply to Tutu, so <b><i>very well played</i></b> on her part.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303357">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Sciencemom<br />
"No he isn’t and hasn’t been for years now."</p>
<p>Please post a CDC link to verify your claims.<br />
Actually, that would support Thompson's "Dear Dr. Gerberding" letter which indicates that he had slides of the ORIGINAL results, and he was not happy about presenting them, hence, the letter. I do not believe he was allowed to make the presentation with the NEW results.<br /><a href="http://www.naturalnews.com/images/CDC-Gerberding-Warning-Vaccines-Autism.jpg">http://www.naturalnews.com/images/CDC-Gerberding-Warning-Vaccines-Autis…</a> </p>
<p>"So? He also hasn’t recanted his admission of delusions and psychotic episodes."<br />
Please post evidence of these accusations. Do you have access to his medical records?</p>
<p>"No he didn’t"<br />
Yes he did.</p>
<p>"Why would we?"<br />
Thompson isn't being a "team" player. His accusations undermine the credibility of the CDC to assure the public of vaccine safety. He is bad for business.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Toto "the Rock" (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303358">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Sciencemom<br />
You're busted!<br />
#86<br />
Annual Meeting 2015: From Cells to Community and Back!<br />
Kristen Salomon, PhD, Program Chair<br />
"Finally, drawing upon local Georgia talent, William W. Thompson, PhD, Immunization Safety Branch, National Immunization Program, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, Georgia will present on the CDC’s important work examining health-related quality of life and well-being."<br /><a href="http://www.psychosomatic.org/NewsFall2014/AMUpdate.cfm">http://www.psychosomatic.org/NewsFall2014/AMUpdate.cfm</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Toto "the Rock" (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303359">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>AMAZING! With all his ignorant bumbling, Dr. Hooker came up with the same results as Thompson et al in their ORIGINAL study.</p></blockquote>
<p>No he didn't. DeStefano et al. did not find a statistically significant effect for the children analysed i.e. those with birth certificate information. OR was 1.68 with CI of 0.82 to 3.47.</p>
<blockquote><p>Dr. Thompson is still employed by the CDC in the Vaccine Safety Division. </p></blockquote>
<p>Untrue. He is employed in the Health-Related Quality of Life Program at he CDC.</p>
<blockquote><p>I have not heard ONE pro-vaxxer calling for Thompson’s resignation!<br />
THEREFORE, pro-vaxxers are PRO-THOMPSON! They trust HIM to keep their snowflakes SAFE with SAFE AND EFFECTIVE vaccines.</p></blockquote>
<p>Why would he need to resign? </p>
<p>Thompson is a psychologist, so he doesn't really have a role in vaccine safety.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">ChrisP (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303360">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Dr. Hooker came up with the same results as Thompson et al in their ORIGINAL study.<br />
No he didn’t. </p></blockquote>
<p>Silly Science Mom & ChrisP. Toto is obviously referring here to the double-secret-probation ULTIMO-ORIGINAL version, the one that was <b>suppressed</b>, sent back to the authors to revise with new analyses into something more compatible with the chemtrail depopulation agenda.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303361">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I only just noticed this in Orac's OP:<br />
Add to that its belief in the Great Mother Wheel or the Mother Plane, a human-built planet, a half-mile by a half-mile, a UFO that was seen by the prophet Ezekiel</p>
<p><i>Elijah Muhammad taught his followers about a Mother Plane or Wheel, a UFO that was seen and described in the visions of the prophet Ezekiel in the Book of Ezekiel, in the Hebrew Bible.</i></p>
<p>Did Elijah Muhammed plagiarise von Daniken or vice versa? Vast cool intelligences would like to know.<br />
Also, "Mother Plane" is not funny enough, this fictitious vehicle should have been called 'The Ecliptic Plane'. Reality, make it so.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303362">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><blockquote>I have not heard ONE pro-vaxxer calling for Thompson’s resignation!<br />
THEREFORE, pro-vaxxers are PRO-THOMPSON!</blockquote>
<p>Why would he need to resign?</p></blockquote>
<p>Hell, he seems to have worked like gangbusters in terms of lighting the fuse for a wholesale implosion of the antivaccine fantasts goes, so what's not to like?</p>
<p>I mean, the poor fellow's naivete has been ruthlessly taken advantage of by the Hooker–Wakefield slime brigade, but this is <b><i>about the third tier</i></b> after the principals and the bumblers who imagine themselves to be MollUSCLAR lieutenants rather than just more cannon fodder.</p>
<p>And then there's <a href="http://www.drawingkidstochrist.com/stuff/HIPPOs.png">Tutu</a>, who represents a sort of waste product left to figure out its own disposal and with the misapprehension that somebody's actually going to <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/01/08/happy-new-year-vaccines-do-not-cause-autism-in-2015-either/#comment-380894">pay for the privilege</a>.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303363">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>^ Then again, she sometimes is so disconnected from the reality of her non-role that <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/10/23/brian-hooker-and-andrew-wakefield-send-a-complaint-to-the-cdc-about-its-vaccine-research-everyone-yawns/#comment-375067">things like this</a> spill out, as well:</p>
<blockquote><p>The FCA and FTCA? What irrelevant nonsense!<br />
Surely you could do better than that.<br />
You’re just mad that I use BIG PHARMA lawyers FOR FREE!<br />
HA HA HA!</p></blockquote>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303364">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>^^ Strike the "goes" from #92; I lost interest in the rewriting by the end.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303365">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Did Elijah Muhammed plagiarise von Daniken or vice versa?</p></blockquote>
<p>One might note that Farrakhan wasn't the legitimate heir of NOI in the first place.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303366">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>OK, so Elijah Muhammad's Ezekiel-themed disquisitions came in 1973, well after von Daniken's, although sadly too early for him to have heard the UFO theory explained in Leonard Nimoy's inimitable tones.</p>
<p><i>One might note that Farrakhan wasn’t the legitimate heir of NOI in the first place.</i><br />
If Farrakhan wants to appropriate E.M's whole corrupt farrago, by claiming to have been anointed heir to the throne in his own Paul-like fraudulent revelation, then good luck to him. It's not like he's stealing anything of value.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303367">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ezekiel and the UFOs was conjured up well before von Daniken wrote his silly books. When I was a kid in the late Fifties, I borrowed a book about UFOs that discussed the theory that Ezekiel's wheels were the first reported UFO sighting. I was fascinated. I was also ten years old.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">TBruce (not verified)</span> on 23 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303368">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1303369" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1435040285"></mark><div class="well">
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Hell, he seems to have worked like gangbusters in terms of lighting the fuse for a wholesale implosion of the antivaccine fantasts goes, so what’s not to like?</p>
<p>I mean, the poor fellow’s naivete has been ruthlessly taken advantage of by the Hooker–Wakefield slime brigade, but this is about the third tier after the principals and the bumblers who imagine themselves to be MollUSCLAR lieutenants rather than just more cannon fodder.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, William Thompson appears to be a fragile, trusting, tortured soul who couldn't take the pressure of having to testify in front of a hostile committee and seems to have let his distress lead to unjustified doubts about the research he did with guilt following. That guilt led him to foolishly trust Brian Hooker, who betrayed his trust by recording him and then was further betrayed by Andrew Wakefield, who used some of the audio Brian Hooker had recorded to produce the first "CDC whistleblower" video. Sadly, despite his previous experience in research, Thompson appears to have forgotten some basics about statistics (as in controlling for confounders and being wary of analyses of very small subgroups) and research design (the final research protocol was not modified post hoc in the way he claims it was).</p>
<p>I used to feel sorry for Thompson, thinking he was just an innocent dupe with a hypersensitive sense of guilt, but the more I looked into what he did, the less impressed I was by him. In any private business or foundation he would have been fired with extreme prejudice for his flirtation with people dedicated to destroying the reputation of his employer, but this is the federal government. So he works on, likely a pathetic figure in a (now) do-nothing job because likely no one trusts him or wants to work with him any more.</p>
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<footer><em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 23 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303369">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Orac@100: "William Thompson appears to be a fragile, trusting, tortured soul"</p>
<p>Well I hope at least some of his self-torture is in guilt for being so bloody awful at Statistics 101. Hell, I flunked stats in high school and even I can grasp that you can't go fitting arbitrary conclusions to the numbers <em>after</em> they've been run, for that way forever cherry fishing lies. </p>
<p>Sure it's a very human failing, and one we're all inherently prone to. That said, it's also not unreasonable to expect one tasked with all the status and responsibilities of a CDC researcher to demonstrate a bit more competence and duty of care than that.</p>
<p><a href="https://xkcd.com/882/">Also, obligatory xkcd.</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">has (not verified)</span> on 23 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303370">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Interesting. It looks as though Scientology is <a href="http://www.latimes.com/local/political/la-me-pc-nation-of-islam-california-vaccine-mandate-bill-20150622-story.html">distancing itself from this crankfest</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>Some of the claims of health risk were voiced at a recent town hall meeting by opponents in a community center owned by the Church of Scientology, a venue that led supporters of the bill to question whether the church is behind the opposition.</p>
<p>However, spokeswoman Karin Pouw said Monday that the church has not taken a position on the legislation.</p>
<p>“The event you asked about was held at our Community Center,” Pouw said in a statement. “We frequently make the Community Center available to facilitate the open discussion of issues that are important to members of the community. The church does not take a position one way or the other on SB 277.”</p></blockquote>
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<footer><em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 23 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303371">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I suspect AJW cut and pasted Thompson's words on the Youtube and also that he is possibly violating Califonia laws reckless misrepresentaiions fraud child endangerment and practicing medicine without a license.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Barefoot (not verified)</span> on 23 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303372">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>AoA commenter Julie M. has a rather <a href="http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/06/the-battle-for-california-part-4-the-nation-of-islam-and-the-church-of-scientology-join-the-fight-ag.html?cid=6a00d8357f3f2969e201bb0846ff45970d#comment-6a00d8357f3f2969e201bb0846ff45970d">peculiar take</a><a> on that <i>Times</i> item:</a></p>
<blockquote><p>There's a predictable LA Times hit piece on Tony Muhammed today, loaded with misinformation. Lousy picture of him looking like he regrets something and assorted LIES and spin that I'm sure come right out of a press release from OM/CMA/Pan's office. There is also an inference to [<i>sic</i>] a "discredited study" that tries to link the whole thing to the ever popular myth about Wakefield. In fact the study Muhammed is referring to is obviously and ironically the primary CDC/autism study.</p></blockquote>
<p>Aside from the part where no, they clearly weren't referring to Wakefraud, it doesn't even vaguely resemble an attack on T.M.</p>
<p>HIV denialist Bayareamom reminds everyone that Julie M. was one of the "spreading like wildfire types" – apparently, a visit to the pretty tame streets of Oakland was too much for her.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 23 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303373">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>HDB<br />
TBruce is right.There were books like this years before von Daniken.Von Daniken is known to have "borrowed freely"from two books at the start,both first published in 1963,by French authors.<i>One Hundred Thousand Years of Man's Unknown History</i>,by Robert Joseph Grugeau,who wrote under the name Robert Charroux,and <i>The Morning of the Magicians</i> AKA <i>The Dawn of Magic</i>'by Louis Pauwels and Jacques Bergier.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Roger Kulp (not verified)</span> on 23 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303374">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>The church does not take a position one way or the other on SB 277.</p></blockquote>
<p>I need to update my comment #26:<br />
RFK Jr - too nutty for Scientology?</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">TBruce (not verified)</span> on 23 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303375">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>The church does not take a position one way or the other on SB 277.</p></blockquote>
<p>Um.<br />
Charitable interpretation: "don't drag me into your fight, you troublemakers".<br />
Less charitable one: "Let's not offend the nice guy who just rented our little room, but let's not offend his opponents, either. At least not until we know where the money is."</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Helianthus (not verified)</span> on 23 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303376">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>RFK Jr – too nutty for Scientology?</p></blockquote>
<p>I imagine they're pretty cautious about their tax-exempt status.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 23 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303377">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Less charitable one: “Let’s not offend the nice guy who just rented our little room, but let’s not offend his opponents, either. At least not until we know where the money is.”</p></blockquote>
<p>As someone who has rented facilities for, um, functions, it's perfectly reasonable that a venue would welcome all well behaved, paying customers while at the same time neither condemning nor endorsing them. Of course, one wonders given other reports of collaboration between the two groups.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Mephistopheles O'Brien" xml:lang="">Mephistopheles… (not verified)</span> on 23 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303378">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Orac, @ 103 and Hellanthus @ 107, also Hellanthus @ 109 and Mephisto @ 109: </p>
<p>I don't think that Scientology is distancing itself from this, I don't think they're waiting to find out which side of this has more money, nor tax exemption issues nor "welcome all.. without endorsing or condemning."</p>
<p>1) "We're only providing a venue" sounds overtly smarmy (and even amateurishly smarmy), like "We're not defending racism, we're defending free speech." </p>
<p>2) Scientology _does_ have a stake: their fanatical opposition to science-based psychiatry and promotion of the quack treatments that they offer. Anything that stirs up a nasty buzz against psychiatry helps them sell their quackery. </p>
<p>I'm quite sure that (2) is correct: Scientology is using this as an opening for their anti-psychiatry fanaticism and their "alt healing modalities." Seen that way, the rest of their behavior makes about AB 277 makes much more sense.</p>
<p>Re. the UFO angle: NOI is a different flavor than most of what we're used to in that area: </p>
<p>Their "mother wheel" with lots of little "orbs" that each carry three bombs: this is a "UFOs as Destroying Angel" myth, rather than the "UFO cargo cult" beliefs we see among New Agers ("the Space Brothers will land and give us miracle technologies"). It's "UFO-gods as divine threat against our enemies" rather than "UFO-gods as divine benefit to ourselves." </p>
<p>OTOH lots of reasonable people have seen puzzling objects in the sky (that usually turn out to be natural phenomena or new jet fighters on test flights, etc.), so we should be careful to not make the entire subject "taboo" and thereby drive these folks up the nut trees.</p>
<p>Since any badguys reading this can't track me down, I'll stick my neck out and say that NOI (as well as the rest of the anti-277 crowd) is just flat-out crazy. Its members must be exceptionally credulous as well as hostile toward other races, toward Jews, etc., and as we've seen with white supremacist racism and conspiracy theory, that combination of credulity and hostility is definitely not good.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Gray Squirrel (not verified)</span> on 23 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303379">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>NOI (as well as the rest of the anti-277 crowd) is just flat-out crazy</p></blockquote>
<p>I don't see the NOI <i>leadership</i> as crazy. Farrakhan didn't <i>hallucinate</i> an experience of flying-saucer abduction, and receiving the keys to EM's grifting operation directly from the saucer gods. He <i>made it up</i>, hybridising Adamski with Joesph Smith, because no-one was going to give him money and power otherwise.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 24 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303380">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Ezekiel and the UFOs was conjured up well before von Daniken wrote his silly books.</i></p>
<p>Von Daniken was a plagiarist too?! I am shocked and disappointed!</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 24 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303381">#permalink</a></em>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1303382" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1435206905"></mark><div class="well">
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Interesting!, now we have two hypotheses here:</p>
<p>1) Farrakhan hallucinated his flying saucer abduction. (How he hallucinated it isn't specified: taking LSD etc. is unlikely, dreams are more likely, some kind of self-induced trance is to my mind most likely since many of the UFO abductee experiences meet the criteria for occurring in a waking trance state. Try this exercise: next time you're in a highway trance, and see an airliner, imagine it's a spaceship and see what kind of wild content you come up with. This is better to do as a passenger for obvious safety reasons. To induce a highway trance, just stare out at the road as if you're driving, and don't shift your gaze much for about a half hour.)</p>
<p>2) He stole the ingredients for it from three (or more) other authors and assembled them into a narrative.</p>
<p>Without having read the material from those other authors, I'm inclined toward (a), because:</p>
<p>a) Those types of experiences involve elements of cultural archetypes that are held more or less in common among members of a given society. (For example many "UFO abductees" in the US report being variously poked, prodded, injected, and implanted by their ETs.)</p>
<p>b) It takes a higher level of talent and a lower level of ethical scruples, to create a story like that from bits & pieces picked up elsewhere, _and_ to promote that story relentlessly with a straight face, than it does to have a hallucinatory experience of whatever kind and then honestly believe that it has made one "special" in whatever way.</p>
<p>c) There are many more people in our culture who are seriously deluded, than there are high-functioning sociopaths (the latter by definition are talented liars). For example 30% of Americans believe in young-Earth creationism, whereas 3% of American males and 1% of American females meet the diagnostic criteria for antisocial personality disorder. </p>
<p>Hypothesis (1) could be falsified by demonstrating that Farrakhan meets the criteria for being a sociopath, as distinct from the criteria for being deluded. I don't know much about the guy so I'm agnostic as to whether he's a sociopath or not.</p>
<p>The vast majority of people who are thoroughly deluded do not meet the criteria for psychosis e.g. schizophrenia: they are able to function as workers, parents, candidates for election and holders of public office. </p>
<p>--</p>
<p>This discussion about NOI is one of those that is greatly facilitated by the ability to comment on this blog anonymously with no link to our legal names. I for one, and probably others here, would be reluctant to say anything about NOI if members of NOI could find out "who we are and where we live." The same case applies to speaking out about Scientology, other aggressive quacks, etc. We can live with the occasional troll (per Orac's viral meme, "chew toy") in exchange for the privacy that protects our freedom to speak.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Gray Squirrel (not verified)</span> on 25 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303382">#permalink</a></em>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1303383" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1435211444"></mark><div class="well">
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>There are many more people in our culture who are seriously deluded, than there are high-functioning sociopaths (the latter by definition are talented liars)</i></p>
<p>That is an interesting point. I agree that I have personally dealt with more seriously deluded people than high-functioning sociopaths, but that has always felt like more of a comment about the social milieu to which I gravitate than about society as a whole.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 25 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303383">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Grey Squirrel @113:<br /><i>Without having read the material from those other authors, I’m inclined toward (a), because:</i></p>
<p>Should we also conclude that Hubbard established the Church of Scientology as an expression of hallucinations and delusive thought rather than as a conscious fraud? That Joseph Smith genuinely hallucinated each of his experiences with Moroni the Angel, and the golden plates, and the special glasses for reading those plates, rather than making them up to manipulate his rather credulous followers?</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 25 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303384">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Re. Herr Doktor Bimler @ 114 and 116: </p>
<p>Hubbard was reported to have said, at a science fiction convention, that "the way to make a fortune is to establish a phony religion." If he actually said that, it would be a strong indication that he had fraudulent intent from the get-go. Though I would also say that Hubbard was delusional (grandiose etc.) as well, based on others' reports of his behavior. </p>
<p>I'm not sufficiently familiar with the history of the LDS Church and critiques thereof, to speculate about Joseph Smith. I consider LDS to be within the American mainstream at this point, even though its anti-gay activities have hit me hard "where I live." One must none the less be objective about these things as far as possible.</p>
<p>But to make one thing clear, I do not subscribe to the hard-line atheist position that all forms of religious experience and/or religious philosophy are a-priori delusional, and I find that position to be prejudiced in the manner of bigotry. Whether or not a deity or immortal soul exists is, objectively, an empirically untestable question. We also know that human variability as to beliefs about deities etc. strongly suggests a basis in variability of brain structure and function that is (very) roughly analogous to sexual orientation. The "common sense" of theists that a deity etc. exists, and the "common sense" of atheists that a deity etc. does not exist, are both reflective of this variability, as with the natural sexual attractions of heterosexuals and LGBTs. Given that the variability may inhere in the brain, as distinct from whatever cultural overlay occurs (e.g. children raised as theists or atheists depending on culture), civic ethics against prejudice call for a basic level of respect for the right of individuals to believe what they will about those issues as long as they do not harm others (refusing to immunize their kids is an example of harm).</p>
<p>That however is not the same thing as according equal respect to all types of content that occur in religious beliefs. Where there is a clear indication of a fraudulent origin, or of a diagnosable psychiatric disorder, or that the premise of a belief or ritual is empirically falsified, those points can be valid critiques. But those types of critiques are on a different set of axes of measurement, than the critique of theism or atheism as such by those at the other end of the scale. And those types of critiques are also not-relevant to getting SB 277 enacted into law.</p>
<p>Getting back to Farrakhan, delusion is to my mind a more parsimonious explanation than fraud, unless evidence emerges to the contrary. </p>
<p>Operationally, whether Farrakhan is delusional or fraudulent or both, doesn't much matter for our political strategy, which need only demonstrate that NOI is wholly at odds with the mainstream culture in ways that are sufficient to discount its pronouncements about vaccination. Attacking NOI, we should be careful to not level the attack in a manner that will alienate e.g. mainstream denominations of Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc., who are by a large majority supportive of AB 277. </p>
<p>The bottom line is: strategically, draw your inclusion/exclusion or friend/adversary boundaries in such a manner as to maximize the number of friends and allies, and reduce the number of those who are seen as adversaries to a bare minimum. That results in the largest possible coalition of allies and the isolation of the adversaries at the far fringe. That strategy wins.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Gray Squirrel (not verified)</span> on 26 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303385">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>In the presentation speech as winner of the 1913 Nobel Prize in Medicine for his work with anaphylaxis, Charles Robert Richet said, "We are so constituted that we can never receive other proteins into the blood than those that have been modified by digestive juices. Every time alien protein penetrates by effraction, the organism suffers and becomes resistant. This resistance lies in increased sensitivity, a sort of revolt against the second parenteral injection which would be fatal. At the first injection, the organism was taken by surprise and did not resist. At the second injection, the organism mans its defences and answers by the anaphylactic shock." In naming "anaphylaxis", Richet described, "Phylaxis, a word seldom used, stands in the Greek for protection. Anaphylaxis will thus stand for the opposite. Anaphylaxis, from its Greek etymological source, therefore means that state of an organism in which it is rendered hypersensitive, instead of being protected." Richet concluded his lecture by saying, "Seen in these terms, anaphylaxis is a universal defense mechanism against the penetration of heterogenous substances in the blood, whence they can not be eliminated."</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">WTC7 (not verified)</span> on 26 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303386">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Hey WTC7, got any science more recent than 102 years ago? We've learned a lot about how the human body, immunology, and immunization works since then.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">MI Dawn (not verified)</span> on 26 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303387">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Operationally, whether Farrakhan is delusional or fraudulent or both, doesn’t much matter for our political strategy, which need only demonstrate that NOI is wholly at odds with the mainstream culture in ways that are sufficient to discount its pronouncements about vaccination.</p></blockquote>
<p>Repeated for great justice.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 26 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303388">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Dr. Hooker was impressed by Minister Farrakhan’s command of the science. As a scientist, Dr. Hooker finds most people mess up the science when they try to talk about it, but it was clear to Hooker that Farrakhan had listened closely."</p>
<p>I wonder what Brian Hooker thinks about the "science" that shows that white people are the product of an evil black scientist's eugenics experiment to create a master race 6000 years ago.</p>
<p>Yes, the NOI really believes that is true. They also believe that there is good scientific evidence in support of it.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Cavoyo (not verified)</span> on 27 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303389">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'm beginning to think there is no conspiracy theory the NOI wouldn't believe. Someone needs to test this. I feel sorry for Malcolm X. I suspect Earth has developed a slight wiggle in it's orbit because of him.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Politicalguineapig (not verified)</span> on 27 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303390">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Hey WTC7, got any science more recent than 102 years ago? </i><br />
Imagine my surprise to find lazy-ass cut-&-paste spam coming from a Twin Towers truther.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 28 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303391">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>SB277 just passed the last hurdle before the Governer's signature: final vote in Senate to approve the amendment made in the Assembly.</p>
<p>Next stop: Jerry's desk!</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">LIz Ditz (not verified)</span> on 29 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303392">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I would like to thank the Dachelbot for <a href="http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/06/dachel-media-update-californias-sb277-nuremberg-code-and-american-rights.html">crystallizing</a> the failure of Laura Hayes:</p>
<blockquote><p>Now before anyone accuses me of misrepresenting the issue, I want to make it clear that VACCINES ARE A MEDICAL EXPERIMENT. Think about it....</p>
<p>How can anyone get around this?</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://www.hhs.gov/ohrp/humansubjects/guidance/45cfr46.html#46.102">Common Rule</a> on line 2.</p>
<p>BTW, I do wonder how Stagmom's random administration of "OSR#1" and all the rest of the biomeddling fit into this Nuremberg Code "analysis."</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 29 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303393">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Re. Herr Doktor Bimler @ 120: Thanks!;-) </p>
<p>There's another category I forgot to mention, which consists of religious organizations that use coercive means to gain or maintain membership or to control the lives of members. Technically the term "cult" refers to any new religion that is not a sect (split-off) from an existing church, but we can reasonably call this category "mind-control cults" or "totalitarian cults" or something along those lines. </p>
<p>Re. Politicalguineapig @ 122: </p>
<p>Re. paraNOIa, that's a testable hypothesis;-) Just whip up some new conspiracy theories (CTs) and feed 'em in via the social media channels that NOI members frequent, and see what takes and what doesn't. </p>
<p>CTs are like Lay's Potato Chips: "Bet ya' can't eat just one!"</p>
<p>--</p>
<p>Now everyone who is reading this: take five minutes to email Governor Brown to ask him to sign SB 277 as it exists, without adding a signing statement that might have the effect of weakening it.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Gray Squirrel (not verified)</span> on 29 Jun 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303394">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Yet another whistleblower trying to make things right. People should also read about the lymerix vaccine that was released through the CDC in 2002 after fraudulent trial results were released. Many people who received the vaccine who didn't have Lyme disease ended up symptomatic and tested positive....but that's okay, anything to make more billions....criminal or not.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Joanna (not verified)</span> on 29 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303395">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Joanna,<br />
Citation needed. For every claim you made.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span> on 29 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1303396">#permalink</a></em>
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</article></footer></article></section><ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/login?destination=/insolence/2015/06/22/cranks-of-a-feather-part-2-robert-f-kennedy-jr-cozies-up-the-nation-of-islam-over-sb-277%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul>Mon, 22 Jun 2015 01:12:23 +0000oracknows22076 at https://scienceblogs.comAs states try to crack down on non-medical exemptions to school vaccine mandates, antivaccinationists lose it (yellow Star of David edition)https://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/02/24/as-states-try-to-crack-down-on-non-medical-exemptions-to-school-vaccine-mandates-antivaccinationists-lose-it
<span>As states try to crack down on non-medical exemptions to school vaccine mandates, antivaccinationists lose it (yellow Star of David edition)</span>
<div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>With the Disneyland measles outbreak still going strong and striking far more unvaccinated than vaccinated, it's not surprising that a discussion has begun in some states about lax policies that permit religious and/or philosophical exemptions. In Oregon, for example, the legislature is considering <a href="https://olis.leg.state.or.us/liz/2015R1/Downloads/MeasureDocument/SB442/Introduced">SB442</a>, a bill apparently originally intended to provide a technical fix to the process for obtaining philosophical exemptions to vaccine mandates by giving parents deadlines to submit the required documentation for non-medical exemptions, but the antivaccine troops became totally riled up when the Senate Health Committee <a href="http://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/news/health/2015/02/18/oregonians-debate-proposed-immunization-mandate/23653255/">heard testimony on an amendment</a> that would eliminate non-medical exemptions. That Oregon, a state with one of the laxest policies on non-medical exemptions would even consider such a law, even though it probably has a snowball's chance in hell of passing, is truly amazing. Not surprisingly, the antivaccine crank blog is going <a href="http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/02/oregons-sb442-senator-elizabeth-steiner-heyward-defends-her-personal-medical-choice-denies-yours.html" rel="nofollow">absolutely</a> <a href="http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/02/testimony-in-protest-of-oregon-sb442-vaccine-exemption-removal-bill.html" rel="nofollow">crazy</a> <a href="http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/02/dr-paul-thomas-md-parents-rights-to-choice-in-vaccines-threatened-around-the-country-and-in-oregon-s.html" rel="nofollow">about</a> it, given that it's in founder <a href="http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/02/jb-handley-to-oregon-senate-committee-on-sb442-vaccine-exemptions-bill.html" rel="nofollow">J.B. Handley</a>'s home state.</p>
<p>Similarly, in California, Senators <a href="http://sd06.senate.ca.gov">Richard Pan</a> and <a href="http://sd26.senate.ca.gov">Ben Allen</a> recently introduced <a href="http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billHistoryClient.xhtml">Senate Bill 227</a>, which would repeal <a href="http://sd06.senate.ca.gov/news/2015-02-19-senate-bill-277-introduced-end-california’s-vaccine-exemption-loophole">the personal belief exemption</a> to school vaccine mandates in California. That, too, is amazing. Consider, this is the land of Dr. Jay Gordon, Robert "Dr. Bob" Sears, and more woo-loving antivaccine naturopaths, pediatricians, and other health care providers than you can shake a stick at, and the legislature is actually considering a bill to eliminate personal belief exemptions. Not knowing the political situation in California that well, I don't know what its chances are for passage. (Probably not good.) Of course, before the Disneyland measles outbreak, there was no chance that such a bill would even have been introduced for debate.</p>
<!--more--><p>In response to initiatives such as these, unfortunately, we have stories such as this one entitled <a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/news/anti-vaccine-moms-speak-out-amid-fierce-backlash/">Anti-vaccine moms speak out amid fierce backlash</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>
One is a businesswoman and an MBA graduate. Another is a corporate vice president. The third is a registered nurse.</p>
<p>These three mothers - all of them educated, middle-class professionals - are among the vaccine skeptics who have been widely ridiculed since more than 100 people fell ill in a measles outbreak traced to Disneyland. Critics question their intelligence, their parenting, even their sanity. Some have been called criminals for foregoing shots for their children that are overwhelmingly shown to be safe and effective.</p>
<p>"Contrary to the common sentiment, we are not anti-science," said Michelle Moore, a businesswoman who lives in the affluent Portland suburb of Lake Oswego with her 2.5-year-old twin girls. "I'm not opposed to medicine, and I think vaccines have a place. We think it's a medical choice, and it should be researched carefully."
</p></blockquote>
<p>Unfortunately, where you and I see the arrogance of ignorance, this article is yet another exercise in false balance, in which these antivaccine mothers are presented as being persecuted and not all that ignorant. One thing the article does get right is this:</p>
<blockquote><p>
Anti-vaccination parents include a mix of views - from religious communities to families practicing alternative medicine and libertarians who shun government interference.</p>
<p>Measles and myths: Medical expert addresses skepticism over vaccine<br />
But many are Americans with college degrees living in liberal communities such as Santa Monica or Marin County in California and Portland, said Gary Freed, a professor of pediatrics at the University of Michigan.
</p></blockquote>
<p>We also hear, what we've heard so many times before, the "health freedom" trope so beloved of antivaccinationists:</p>
<blockquote><p>
"I have the right to decide what to put into my child's body," said Heather Dillard, a mom in Springfield, Missouri, who is also a registered nurse. "Nobody has the right to put toxic chemicals into my son's bloodstream. That's taking my rights away, and it's very scary to me."
</p></blockquote>
<p>But what about her son's rights to good medical care and simple preventative measures that will protect him from infectious disease? As was the case with <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/02/03/is-republican-party-becoming-antivaccine-party/">Rand Paul</a> and all the others arguing "parental rights," the thought that the child might be an independent entity who is <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/10/29/children-are-not-their-parents-property/">not the property of his parents</a> never enters Dillard's mind. It's all about her, her, her, as opposed to about her son, and her comment about putting "toxic chemicals into his bloodstream" just shows how little she knows, in addition to this:</p>
<blockquote><p>
Dillard and others say they are not worried about measles because their children have strong immune systems. They cite statistics: Out of the 1,000-plus measles cases in the past decade, there was not a single death.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Not in the US—yet. There was <a href="http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/23/german-health-official-mandatory-measles-vaccinations-child-dies">just a death in Germany</a>. An 18-month-old boy who was not vaccinated against the measles developed complications from the measles and died. Germany, it turns out, has been having its own measles outbreak, with 574 cases reported since October and this being the first fatality. Germany is just as developed a country as the US, in some ways more so (universal health care, for instance). Do Dillard and others think that this child didn't have a strong immune system? If antivaccinationists keep it up, we could soon be reporting our own measles deaths right here in the good ol' USA.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, in California, a group called Californians against SB 277 has gone beyond the antivaccine dog whistle of equating "forced vaccination" with an attack on freedom and has <a href="https://www.facebook.com/CaliforniansAgainstSB277/posts/1374982366154042">gone full Godwin</a> (original post removed; but fortunately the text was saved <a href="https://thepoxesblog.wordpress.com/2015/02/23/to-the-vermont-coalition-for-vaccine-choice-vaccine-requirements-are-exactly-like-the-holocaust/">here</a>):</p>
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<div class="fb-xfbml-parse-ignore"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/RtAVM/posts/862907977112546">Post</a> by <a href="https://www.facebook.com/RtAVM">Refutations to Anti-Vaccine Memes</a>.</div>
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<p>Yes, that picture you see is a photo of someone named Heather Barajas juxtaposed with Jews in Hitler's Germany wearing the yellow Star of David that Nazis made Jews wear in public in order to make them immediately identifiable with a picture of herself and her daughter with badges consisting of a syringe with a slash through it. Persecution complex much? I mean, seriously, it takes an enormous martyr complex coupled with delusions of grandeur to equate a requirement that children be vaccinated before going to places where there are a lot of other children who can spread disease (you know, like schools, day care facilities, and the like) with the yellow Star of David that Nazis required Jews to wear to make them easier to target for persecution and, ultimately, extermination.</p>
<p>Does Barajas realize how utterly ridiculous she looks? Does she realize how deeply offensive it is to compare her not being able to send her kids to school without getting them vaccinated with the Holocaust?</p>
<p>Barajas concludes thusly:</p>
<blockquote><p>
This is no longer about pro-vax vs. non-vax. This is about freedom of choice for medical procedures. Our bodies belong to us, not the government. Measles is not a deadly disease. It is not sweeping the nation, killing thousands, as the media hysteria seems to have some believing. It's being used as a scare tactic. It's being used to turn people against each other.</p>
<p>If SB 277 passes, it will be very bad. Not even homeschooling will be safe, since in CA it's considered private school. Everyone will be forced to vaccinate, adults as well. They have many new vaccines in the making that you will be forced to get.</p>
<p>I promise you, if you send the message that the government owns your body, you will regret it. What happens if they decide anyone with any kind of mental illness must be force medicated with whatever they deem as best? What if they start making medication that people with certain disabilities must take, whether they want to or not?
</p></blockquote>
<p>Of course, no one is "forcing" anyone to get vaccinated, least of all adults. The state is simply saying that if you want your child to be able to use certain public services, your child has to be vaccinated. As for the "slippery slope" argument, laws are already in place against medical neglect of children (and, make no mistake, not providing appropriate medication and medical treatment for a condition requiring them is medical neglect). The issue is that such laws are all too frequently not enforced properly. So much deference is given to "parental rights" that parents have to <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/05/28/religion-and-quackery-two-tastes-that-taste-crappy-together/">let two of their children die of pneumonia</a> under nearly identical circumstances, failing to get them treated, before the state will actually consider throwing them in jail and taking the rest of their children away.</p>
<p>Sadly, the comments after Barajas' post are enough to make the Baby Jesus cry. You can see why Dr. Bob likes to <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/02/20/blowing-the-antivaccine-dog-whistle-again/">blow his antivaccine dog whistle</a> so much. He knows what his people like to hear. He just likes to present himself as the "reasonable" face of the antivaccine movement, not like those nuts likening vaccine mandates to the <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/04/15/the-annals-of-im-not-anti-vaccine-part-7/">Holocaust</a> or <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/02/13/the-annals-of-im-not-antivaccine-part-14-vaccine-trafficking-and-beyond/">human trafficking</a>.</p>
<p>Barajas, however, is just the beginning. I realize that I've covered Nazi & Holocaust analogies in which antivaccinationists portray themselves as the Jews and the CDC, state, and other health authorities as the Nazis, but more keep popping up all the time. With the measles outbreak being in the news, the pace seems to be accelerating. For example:</p>
<ul><li><strong>Anne Dachel:</strong> <a href="http://annedachel.com/2015/02/12/20003/" rel="nofollow">Unvaccinated today….Jews 1940 Budapest</a>. In this lovely little ditty, the "media editor" of the antivaccine crank blog known as Age of Autism likens suggestions that the names of nonvaccinating families be made public to...the Jews of Budapest under Nazi rule. Because, you know, what antivaccinationists face today is just like what the Jews of Budapest and elsewhere in the Third Reich faced.</li>
<li><strong>The Healthy Home Economist:</strong> <a href="http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/wic-threatening-unvaccinated-kids-starvation/" rel="nofollow">WIC Threatening Unvaccinated Kids with Starvation</a>. In this post, the HHE likens 2015 America to—you guessed it!—1935 Germany, asking, "Will the unvaccinated be forced to wear the modern equivalent of a yellow Star of David at some point in the near future?"</li>
<li><strong>Mike Adams:</strong> <a href="http://www.naturalnews.com/048735_vaccine_propaganda_Nazi_science_eugenics.html" rel="nofollow">When MEDICINE becomes MURDER: America's vaccine narrative now mirrors Nazi eugenics propaganda</a>. It's Mike Adams. 'Nuff said. Well, not quite. This one is strained even by Adams' standards. It features a 1938 German propaganda poster of the "ideal Aryan family," all blond-haired and blue-eyed sitting on the beach in the perfection of health and compares it to a Pennsylvania poster that shows people showing off their vaccine bandages and reads "Earn your stripe!" It goes downhill from there, likening a poster from today stating that "Flu shots save lives" to a Nazi advertisement lamenting how much a "congenitally diseased or handicapped person" costs the state.</li>
</ul><p>Actually, I must admit that Adams has outdone himself in despicableness, referring to "brain damaged victims of vaccines," complete with photos.</p>
<p>I can somewhat understand why some parents might resent school vaccine mandates. However, that understanding is tempered by an understanding that children are not the property of the parents and when parents fail in their duty to protect them sometimes the state has to prod them with measures like school vaccine mandates, which don't prevent the truly committed antivaccinationists from not vaccinating but will usually give fence sitters or those not ideologically committed against vaccinations a push to vaccinate. These measures are not, however, incipient fascism, the overblown analogies to the Holocaust of Mike Adams, Anne Dachel, and Heather Barajas notwithstanding. They just aren't. The appeal to "health freedom" is an antivaccine dog whistle, and the conflation of vaccine mandates with an intolerable affront to freedom is intentional. After all, who doesn't value freedom? Even those who are pro-vaccine might be sympathetic to such arguments when they come from someone like Rand Paul or even Dr. Bob Sears. In a perverse way, I almost have to thank Mike Adams and his ilk for taking this dog whistle, cranking the volume up to the point where even humans start to be able to hear its lower frequencies, and inadvertently reducing the "health freedom" argument to its on <em>reductio ad absurdum</em>.</p>
<p><strong>ADDENDUM:</strong> It would appear that Heather Barajas and/or Californians Against SB 277 took down the post I was mocking. Fortunately, I saved the photo. Unfortunately, I didn't save the entirety of the text. (I really should know better. I did save the text of Dr. Bob Sears' posts that I wrote about.) In any case, here's the photo, for those who were curious:</p>
<div style="width: 460px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="https://scienceblogs.com/files/insolence/files/2015/02/10360539_959243194088681_6014289004900357498_n.jpg"><img src="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/files/2015/02/10360539_959243194088681_6014289004900357498_n-450x450.jpg" alt="Heather Barajas, in her extreme hubris coupled with a persecution complex, comparing herself to Jews marked with a yellow Star of David." width="450" height="450" class="size-medium wp-image-9327" /></a> Heather Barajas, in her extreme hubris coupled with a persecution complex, comparing herself to Jews marked with a yellow Star of David.
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<span><a title="View user profile." href="https://scienceblogs.com/oracknows" lang="" about="https://scienceblogs.com/oracknows" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">oracknows</a></span>
<span>Tue, 02/24/2015 - 00:00</span>
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<div class="field--item"><a href="https://scienceblogs.com/tag/sb-277" hreflang="en">SB 277</a></div>
<div class="field--item"><a href="https://scienceblogs.com/tag/school-vaccine-mandate" hreflang="en">school vaccine mandate</a></div>
<div class="field--item"><a href="https://scienceblogs.com/tag/star-david" hreflang="en">Star of David</a></div>
<div class="field--item"><a href="https://scienceblogs.com/tag/vaccines" hreflang="en">vaccines</a></div>
<div class="field--item"><a href="https://scienceblogs.com/tag/anti-semitism" hreflang="en">Anti-Semitism</a></div>
<div class="field--item"><a href="https://scienceblogs.com/tag/complementary-and-alternative-medicine" hreflang="en">complementary and alternative medicine</a></div>
<div class="field--item"><a href="https://scienceblogs.com/tag/medicine" hreflang="en">medicine</a></div>
<div class="field--item"><a href="https://scienceblogs.com/tag/science" hreflang="en">Science</a></div>
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<section><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1286346" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424754701"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Shorter anti-vax: "My right to swing my fist ends at the back of your skull."</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">has (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286346">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1286347" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424756135"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Measles is not a deadly disease. It is not sweeping the nation, killing thousands,</p></blockquote>
<p>And vaccination against measles has nothing to do with this happy state of affairs.</p>
<p>"Killing thousands". With this type of threshold, even the recent outbreak of Ebola would barely qualify as a serious disease. And anyway, it's because Africans have vit D deficiency. Not enough sun exposure, you know.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Helianthus (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286347">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1286348" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424756394"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>As the cases in Germany's latest outbreak rise to around 600, the tragic inevitability has occurred - a wee unvaccinated 18 month old has died from measles.<br />
According to official statments the child was unvaccinated (and was old enough to have been) and suffered no chronic conditions <a href="http://www.berlin.de/sen/gessoz/presse/pressemitteilungen/2015/pressemitteilung.268444.php">http://www.berlin.de/sen/gessoz/presse/pressemitteilungen/2015/pressemi…</a><br />
Google translate of the above article tells us "<br /><b>One and a half year old child died of measles: Press Release</b><br /><i>Press release of 23/02/2015<br />
The Senate Department for Health and Social Affairs was informed about a difficult runny measles disease with fatal outcome in a one and a half year old boy.</i></p>
<p>The child fell ill in the Reinickendorf district on 12 February with fever and cough developed in the course and the texture typical rash. Then worsened the condition of the child, so it had to be hospitalized on 14 February. The boy died in hospital on 18 February. The child was not vaccinated against measles. It had no chronic pre-existing conditions.</p>
<p>The competent health authority has initiated immediately in accordance with the Infection Protection Act in the relevant daycare all necessary measures. The announcement was made to the appropriate Regional Office for Health and Social Affairs on Monday, 23 February, after it was secured that measles were the actual cause of death.</p>
<p>The only protection against measles is vaccination. Therefore, all should check whether they have a Masernimpfschutz. Who is not sure whether he already had measles or been vaccinated, should consult their GP and get vaccinated. Blood tests are not necessary for this."</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">janerella (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286348">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1286349" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424756651"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>And guess what does kill thousands - Influenza.....</p>
<p>Yet they don't like that vaccine either.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286349">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1286350" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424756742"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Well said Orac. Children do have the right to proper care just as parents have the responsibility to ensure their children receive it.<br />
The longer the antivaccine crowd rants the less rational they sound.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Rob Cordes (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286350">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1286351" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424759313"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>A few other examples:</p>
<p>Anne Dachel: </p>
<p> <a href="http://annedachel.com/2015/02/12/20003/?utm_content=buffer1f6c8&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer">http://annedachel.com/2015/02/12/20003/?utm_content=buffer1f6c8&utm_med…</a></p>
<p>Sarah Pope (Healthy Home Economist)</p>
<p><a href="http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/wic-threatening-unvaccinated-kids-starvation/?utm_content=bufferb76c6&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer">http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/wic-threatening-unvaccinated-kid…</a></p>
<p>Sayer Ji of Greenmedinfo</p>
<p><a href="https://www.facebook.com/sayerjigmi/photos/a.217389921755973.1073741828.205672406261058/421952797966350/?type=1">https://www.facebook.com/sayerjigmi/photos/a.217389921755973.1073741828…</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Yvette (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286351">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1286357" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424762857"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Let's not forget Mike Adams, who just yesterday produced a gem of argumentum ad Nazium beyond even his past efforts, comparing vaccination programs to the Nazi euthanasia program. I've added some text to "honor" his efforts and include a few more vaccine/Nazi/Holocaust analogies.</p>
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<footer><em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286357">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article><p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/comment/1286351#comment-1286351" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Yvette (not verified)</span></p>
</footer></article></div>
<article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1286352" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424761440"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>As these bills come forth in their legislatures, this beyond hyperbolic hype will only worsen. I hope parents who do vaccinate will see through this nonsense and recognize it for what it is--a sign of just how uneducated and unbalanced anti-vaccinators really are.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Chris Hickie (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286352">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1286353" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424761750"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Lawrence #4 makes a very good point - I was just on the CDC website the other day and was surprised to see there have been 86 pediatric deaths from flu since September 28, 2014. I don't know how that number compares to previous years, but it is a very frightening and sobering statistic. Are numbers like this brought up when people debate the flu vaccine? I wonder if that number is actually higher since not everyone will have their child tested for the flu.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Still Shaking Mama (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286353">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1286354" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424762173"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The first post beat me to the punch, so to speak, on the analogy of swinging one's fist in the air.</p>
<p>It's not a perfect analogy. Swinging my fist in the air, as long as it doesn't intersect another person, is harmless. Letting your special snowflakes go unvaccinated for other than valid medical reasons is not. But actions that endanger only your own kids are one thing. Actions which endanger other people's kids--and that is what the anti-vaxers are doing, even if they don't want to admit it--are that much more reprehensible. Keep your little Petri dishes away from other people's kids. If that means you have to quit your day job to home school them, and your lifestyle is a little less comfortable because of that, then that's the consequence of your actions.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286354">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1286355" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424762569"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>In NM, the largest school district is finally at least enforcing their own rules. Despite three weeks notice, there were still 250 kids caught without either shots or exemptions. <a href="http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S3714737.shtml?cat=500">http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S3714737.shtml?cat=500</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Mu (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286355">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Aother great chestnut from Barajas' rant: "I'm not being dramatic. I'm not over-exaggerating. I'm being very serious & trying to get a message across as bluntly as possible. Keeping our rights to our bodies is a must. I shouldn't have to live in fear in a supposed free country. But I do. I shouldn't feel anxiety every time I hear a police car, helicopter, or plane pass by. But I do. I shouldn't fear taking my daughter to the doctor. But I do. I shouldn't have to wonder if/how my family will suffer, be hurt, or even tortured because we make a medical decision that's different. But unfortunately, I do, every day." </p>
<p>But, no, she's neither dramatic nor over-exaggerating, not at all. I'm not sure those words mean what she thinks they do, because I'm fairly sure she's a textbook definition of both. This woman truly, truly believes her persecution totally equals what the Jews went through? Someone's privilege is showing.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Ann C. (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286356">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>That should read "persecution" with intended quotes in comment #12. Hyperbole is catching.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Ann C. (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286358">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ms. Barajas is not entirely correct regarding the whole home school thing. It might be considered a private school, but not necessarily. They need to meet certain requirements and file an affidavit to be considered a private school.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Todd W. (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286359">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Why is it that so many RNs seem to be so anti-vax?</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="NH Primary Care Doctor" xml:lang="">NH Primary Car… (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286360">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I shouldn't have to live in fear in a supposed free country. But I do. I shouldn't feel anxiety every time I hear a police car, helicopter, or plane pass by. But I do. I shouldn't fear taking my daughter to the doctor. But I do. I shouldn't have to wonder if/how my family will suffer, be hurt, or even tortured because we make a medical decision that's different. But unfortunately, I do, every day. </p></blockquote>
<p>^^That's very distressing.</p>
<p>...</p>
<p>I mean, I too don't think the state should be empowered to make (let's say) CBT for paranoia mandatory. That kind of thing tends to be prone to abuse. But she needs help.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">ann (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286361">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Just to expand on my previous comment, from what I could find, parents are exempted from enrolling their children in school or even registering their home as a school if the child is taught by a certified tutor. This would exempt them from any and all immunization requirements, as I understand it. The relevant code is Education Code 48224:</p>
<blockquote><p>48224. Instruction by tutor</p>
<p>(Exemption by certificated tutor)</p>
<p>Children not attending a private, full-time, day school and who are being instructed in study and recitation for at least three hours a day for 175 days each calendar year by a private tutor or other person in the several branches of study required to be taught in the public schools of this state and in the English language shall be exempted. The tutor or other person shall hold a valid state credential for the grade taught. The instruction shall be offered between the hours of 8 o'clock a.m. and 4 o'clock p.m.</p></blockquote>
<p>The Home School Association of California also notes that this manner of education is <a href="http://www.hsc.org/immunizations.html">exempt from immunization requirements</a>.</p>
<p>So, yeah. Ms. Barajas is full of it.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Todd W. (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286362">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I suppose those people never have read any books about Germany under Hitler?<br />
It's strange, in the US one gets some reactions comparing vaccination regulations with things happening to the Jews in WW2 and in the Netherlands some anti-vaccinionists are anti-semitic and holocaust deniers.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Renate (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286363">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Dillard and others say they are not worried about measles because their children have strong immune systems. They cite statistics: Out of the 1,000-plus measles cases in the past decade, there was not a single death. </p></blockquote>
<p>Which is false. There have been four measles deaths and several deaths from SSPE which is a separate registry.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286364">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>When I checked what immunizations needed updating when I was in my mid twenties I noticed that there was no measles or mumps vaccination on my record. I did get the rubella shot with all the other girls in my year in third grade.</p>
<p>So I got the MMR shot, in addition to my DTaP and FSME booster.</p>
<p>I get the flu vaccine every year.</p>
<p>Do I like having a sore arm for a week after the DTaP? No. I like being alive though.</p>
<p>My grandmother lost a child to diphtheria. She would have gone ape shit crazy if she found out one of her grandkids wasn't vaccinated.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Pris (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286365">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ScienceMom - I was shocked to see the deaths from SSPE...I hadn't realized that they had happened here (in recent memory).</p>
<p>Is there a way to get more details about the cases?</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286366">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>“I have the right to decide what to put into my child’s body,” said Heather Dillard, a mom in Springfield, Missouri, who is also a registered nurse. </p></blockquote>
<p>Taking that to its (il)logical conclusion, Dillard has the "right" to deny her child food and water. After all, *she* gets to decide what goes in her kid's body, right? </p>
<p>When Orac says that these parents are treating their children like property and not autonomous human beings, he absolutely nails it. Never have I seen such a sense of entitlement from a group of people as I do from the anti-vaxers, who honestly believe that they are exempt from the responsibilities of living in a shared society.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">a-non (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286367">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I made a comment on another thread that it's not crass to make an economic case for a treatment. That rather chilling graphic at the start is a stark reminder of the importance of the broader context.</p>
<p>I'm sure a fantastic case could be made economically for eugenics, forced euthanasia, selective abortion etc. but no just no.</p>
<p>Surely one of the measures of a civilised society is to protect and defend the most vulnerable members not to destroy them. This is one of the things the anti vax crowd are missing. This is in large part surely what herd immunity provides and why it's so important and why to be part of that civilised society asking folk to get vaccinated is perfectly commendable.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Phlebas (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286368">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Out of the 1,000-plus measles cases in the past decade, there was not a single death. </i></p>
<p>There's been either 2 or 10, depending on whose figures you want to cite. It would be nice to get this number nailed down.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">shay (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286369">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Shay - see below:</p>
<p><a href="http://pastebin.com/FaDfAGhU">http://pastebin.com/FaDfAGhU</a><br /><a href="http://pastebin.com/aLf5C1DV">http://pastebin.com/aLf5C1DV</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286370">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>barajas is right, of course. Measles isn't a deadly disease.</p>
<p>I mean, yes: it <i><b>did kill 145,700 people</b></i> worldwide in 2013 (that works out to roughly 400 deaths a day).</p>
<p>But that's hardly a reason to go throwing around loaded terms like 'deadly'. Right?</p>
<p> [toggle sarcasm off]</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">JGC (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286371">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I was surprised about the measles and SSPE deaths too. They haven't been well publicized. Lot more than I thought.<br /><a href="http://pediatrics.about.com/od/measles/a/measles-timeline.html">http://pediatrics.about.com/od/measles/a/measles-timeline.html</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Harriet Huestis (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286372">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>the thought that the child might be an independent entity who is not the property of his parents never enters Dillard’s mind. It’s all about her, her, her, as opposed to about her son</p></blockquote>
<p>The more I deal with anti-vaxers, the more convinced I become that the core of their philosophy is nothing but good old fashioned narcissism.</p>
<p>- They believe they know better than anyone else<br />
- They believe others do not put in the same efforts that they do, whether in raising their children, or in doing "research"<br />
- They are unwilling to assume any risk on behalf of others<br />
- They don't even value <i>their own children</i> as much as themselves</p>
<p>The last one is really where it becomes obvious. If they were actually doing all this in the name of protecting their children, their motivations would at least be honorable, if misguided. But they aren't; it is all about not being willing to risk "damaging" their children through vaccination, because that would be something THEY did. Whereas if their child suffers or dies from the actual disease, they can rationalize it as being "dumb luck" or "God's will". They wouldn't like it, but at least they wouldn't feel guilty.</p>
<p>To the anti-vaxers, the risk that some direct action of theirs would lead to a bad outcome for their child is the worst thing possible, even if that action actually reduces the <i>overall</i> risk. It's an astonishing abrogation of parental responsibility. Of course, that also reflects badly on them, so they construct these elaborate fantasies to hide their narcissism from the world and even from themselves. The lengths that they will go to to maintain this self-deception are incredible.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Daniel Welch (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286373">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Still Shaking Mama</p>
<p>Oh yes, the death stats are brought up.</p>
<p>Not that it seems to matter much.</p>
<p>Two factors in that. </p>
<p>1) Humans are just bad a risk assessment so if I or anyone I know survived the flu it feels less dangerous than it is. So sometimes the numbers just don't have the impact one would tend to expect. </p>
<p>2 The tendency of some antivaxxers (particularly the more strident) to blame the deaths on the dead or the dead's parents. You let that kid have a sip of Coca-Cola once, well that is why your kid got the illness or why they didn't survive the illness. If only you were a pure as they claim they are then you would have been safe and alive.</p>
<p>But as we well know the diseases don't test your purity before infecting you and don't reassess your purity before marking you for death. In their world it seems that diseases cannot possibly kill you on their own. They only kill you if you've done something wrong (or someone did something wrong to you).</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">KayMarie (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286374">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@15 > Why is it that so many RNs seem to be so anti-vax?</p>
<p>Nothing like a sweeping generalization but it seems that RNs are routinely taught to "rely on their instincts" and that turns to relying on their anecdotes. Not enough critical thinking. There are many, many exceptions to this rule though. I have met numerous RNs of excellence also.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">BA (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286375">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Correction to post #1:</p>
<p>“My right to swing my fist ends when my arm gets tired.”</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Opus (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286376">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Phlebas</p>
<blockquote><p>That rather chilling graphic at the start is a stark reminder of the importance of the broader context.</p></blockquote>
<p>Actually, I have no trouble differentiating your economic-based argument from the NSDAP's one.</p>
<p>You are arguing about return on investment: by spending now a bit to get most people vaccinated, we save a lot of money later-on by avoiding a more-or-less big number of sick people - money saved on treatments, infrastructure (eh, no more hospital yards for people in iron lungs), and avoided sick days. The same economics-driven logic could be applied to any medical treatment: is the return greater than the cost of it?</p>
<p>Fascists and their ilks are just arguing about not spending money on sick people in the first place. Let the people in iron lungs die.</p>
<p>I would also add that, if antivaxers want to talk about eugenics enabling, they should take a hard look at the typical rhetorical content of their leaders. It's all about their children having a superior immune system and disabled children having a fate worse than death.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Helianthus (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286377">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Heli - you are correct....there has always been an undercurrent in ant-vax rhetoric that people who get sick and / or die from VPDs "deserved it" because their immune systems weren't good enough.</p>
<p>Of course, now those statements are being made in public forums, directly - that children who die of VPDs are better off being removed from the population, because of their "faulty genes."</p>
<p>The comparisons to language that was used in the past to justify Eugenics is eerily similar...and the connotative-dissonance is surreal.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286378">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So the government is full of jack-booted Nazis who strike terror into your heart every time you hear a helicopter or police car and yet, you want them to education your children? Shouldn't you be homeschooling already? Problem solved.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">ruthq (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286379">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Lawrence:</p>
<p>re influenza deaths<br />
Woo-meisters often dispute that. They propose that these figures rely upon trickery by adding pneumonia deaths which have ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with influenza. Right.</p>
<p>Indeed. At AoA, Blaxill uses figures in other ways.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286380">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Last night I almost wept at a local news segment. A man in Liberty, MO just received more than seven million from the vaccine injury compensation fund. He and his wife traveled the globe and regularly received all kinds of vaccines. One set they got left her severely brain injured.</p>
<p>In the interview, he calmly stated the real risks vs benefits of vaccines, urged people to be vaccinated and said the biggest tragedy that could come of this is that people would use this anecdotal evidence of his wife's very rare reaction to further scare monger and argue against vaccination.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Mrs Woo (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286381">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Helianthus<br />
Thanks, that's a relief.</p>
<p>Your last point is well made. We keep seeing variants of "healthy kids don't die from disease" or "we're safe here in the west" in anti vax propaganda.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Phlebas (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286382">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I wonder how many of those anti-vax parents would support another parent's right to send their kid to school with an untreated louse infestation.<br />
"After all, no one dies from lice and Big Brother can't make me put toxic chemicals all over my child's skin."</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">TBruce (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286383">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Lawrence</p>
<p>Did you get those results from the National Vital Statistics System via WONDER?</p>
<p>The question that Shay is raising is that the MMWR only notes 2 deaths in 2003, but doesn't mention the other deaths, while NVSS lists quite a few more (10 from 2000-2013, not counting SSPE).</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Todd W. (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286384">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>My classmate died from vaccination at the age of 11. While such complications are rare they do happen (please, check VAERS database). Should the parents of the dead child have a right to reject vaccine to their other child? How would they feel if California unconditionally mandates vaccination when they see their child dying from one? Does the friends of these parents have the right to review vaccination schedule for their children when they see a child of their friends died from vaccine? Please, let me remind you that the people in California are humans, not cattle.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Review Portal (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286385">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Todd - Dorit provided those links a few days ago.</p>
<p>I'll ask her.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286386">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Todd and Lawrence, these would be good numbers and cases to track down. Yet another anti-vaxx trope to smack down.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286387">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Just note, though, that if the data is coming out of WONDER, it cannot be used to identify the individuals, per the user agreement. So use the data for reporting, but do not track down and disclose the identities of the individuals.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Todd W. (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286388">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>TMR newbie, Epiphany** declares " We Are Not Your Enemy"<br />
in an effort to present her partisan sisters as being truly human to vaccination advocates, not a pestilence to be stamped out heartlessly..<br />
She stresses similarities rather than differences - both love their children, want what is best for them, would do anything for them, including giving their own lives .</p>
<p>Surely the only real difference is that one believes in 'choice' and the other is the hapless victim of meticulously programmed brainwashing by the government. the media and the "medical fear mongering machine"</p>
<p>By disregarding and not supporting the opposition's freedom of choice, their own choices will be limited eventually as well. I'm surprised she didn't dredge up the ' first they came for the Jews, but I wasn't one so I didn't act...' meme. </p>
<p>By protecting vaccination choice, vaccinators also protect themselves somehow. She ends with the traditional argumentum ad pharma lucrium.</p>
<p>** a law student and 'Amazon warrior' from AUS who purports that her vaccinated children have a full range of vaccine injuries whilst her unvaccinated ones are bursting with health- perhaps the latter will follow in her warrior path.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286389">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>As was the case with Rand Paul and all the others arguing “parental rights,” the thought that the child might be an independent entity who is not the property of his parents never enters Dillard’s mind. </i></p>
<p>Indeed.</p>
<p>There's been a few recent stories concerning a new sex education curriculum being implemented in Ontario. </p>
<p>As might be expected, some parents aren't keen on this, making remarks like "I do not want my children taught things that go against my beliefs."</p>
<p>I pointed out that Canada has signed and ratified the "UN Convention on the Rights of the Child", which treats children as individual beings rather than extensions of the parent or property of the parent. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.everychild.ca/uncrc">http://www.everychild.ca/uncrc</a></p>
<p>This didn't go over well with some however, it still remains the fact.</p>
<p><i>We think it’s a medical choice, and it should be researched carefully.” </i></p>
<p>At this point, whoever wrote the article should have asked specific questions concerning the "research" this gaggle of of airheads had actually done.</p>
<p>From what I've seen to date, on most occasions that an anti-vaxer is asked specific questions re: their "research", they clam right up.</p>
<p>Also, as there are numerous examples of well educated cranks and crackpots, MSM "appeals to authority" like "all of them educated, middle-class professionals" are irrelevant.</p>
<p><i>Actually, I must admit that Adams has outdone himself in despicableness, referring to “brain damaged victims of vaccines,” complete with photos.</i></p>
<p>Assuming that Mike doesn't have any real evidence to support the above-mentioned claim, I wish some government agency would take him to task i.e., prove that these are "brain damaged victims of vaccines" or face a charge for disseminating information he knows, or should have known, is false ... which pretty much sums up his entire distasteful article.</p>
<p>The guy is a public menace.</p>
<p><i>I almost have to thank Mike Adams and his ilk for taking this dog whistle, cranking the volume up to the point where even humans start to be able to hear its lower frequencies, and inadvertently reducing the “health freedom” argument to its on reductio ad absurdum.</i></p>
<p>I agree.</p>
<p>I tend to think many anti-vaxers have picked up their info from FB groups or mommy forums and as such, may not be aware of the level of craziness seen on Mike's site and sites like InfoWars.</p>
<p>And I'm sure most families that vaccinate are not aware of the craziness that bubbles away on these sites ... or perhaps even aware there was an "anti-vax movement" before the recent outbreaks.</p>
<p>Having the "crazy" flow in comment threads on vaccine stories and sites like Mike's ... along with the insane "vaccine holocaust" ravings ... likely benefits the vaccine supporter side.</p>
<p>But, I still view Adams as a public menace.</p>
<p>Of course, if agencies like the FDA and similar organizations could get the same powers for "herbal supplements" and "natural remedies" industry that they have for prescription drugs and started cracking down on "unvalidated claims" made for these products, guys like Adams might drift of into oblivion.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">DGR (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286390">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>History, like science, has never been one of their strong points. The ultimate history of the world is, in some sense, the history of children dying. Before vaccines, that is what happened. Children died. It wasn't a rare tragedy like it is in most of the developed world. It was something that happened pretty much every single day of the year even to the rich and well off. </p>
<p>They died and there was nothing a parent could do about it. You couldn't stop diphtheria at all. You couldn't pray away a child's pertussis cough. You couldn't end measles with a poultice. </p>
<p>All you did was to sit back and watch. If the universe was kind, the child survived. If the universe wasn't the child died. Or maybe it was blind from smallpox or deaf from measles or sterile from mumps. </p>
<p>They remember none of that.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Stacy Herlihy (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286391">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Why is it that so many RNs seem to be so anti-vax?"</p>
<p>I'd be curious to know what percentage of them are anti-vax compared to other careers. My step-daughter is an RN who posts numerous pro-vaccination on her facebook page, and counters the idiocy of some of her anti-vax friends (none of them RNs fortunately). Of all her classmates and people she's worked with she says she has only met one person who was anti-vax (anecdotal evidence alert though).</p>
<p>As an aside, she's going for an interview next week for admission to medical school. Fingers crossed!</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Dan Andrews (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286392">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i> a law student and ‘Amazon warrior’ </i></p>
<p>I swear to Crom, the next person who identifies herself as a "mommy warrior" I'm gonna ask to see her DD-214.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">shay (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286393">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>You got no discharge papers, you ain't no "warrior."</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">shay (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286394">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>#44 - Children died</i></p>
<p>Yes but, a parent's inalienable right to let their child die must be preserved, otherwise society could crumble into anarchy.</p>
<p>Re: "History, like science, has never been one of their strong points. "</p>
<p>The only strong point I've seen from anti-vaxers is "dunning-kruger". </p>
<p>Most seem appallingly ignorant and/or have an understanding of history, science, "individual rights", etc. that is restricted to whatever they've picked up from conspiracy and medical crackpot sites.</p>
<p>Then they have the audacity to yammer on about "critical thinking" when it's obvious they've never questioned any of the nonsense they've picked up from the crackpot sites they frequent.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">DGR (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286395">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ DGR:</p>
<p>Agreed, Adams is a public menace.</p>
<p>Looking over his posts of the past few days, I notice that he- like the other prevaricator @ PRN- presents himself as an educator, a scientist and ultimately, a humanitarian.</p>
<p>" Your entire reality is an elaborate manipulation", "Who needs facts?" ( both, yesterday) and his Food Rising campaign ( Sunday) sidle up cozily with the venom Orac cites above. He enlightens, educates and charitably gives away hydroponics kits to children ( that other people paid for). so, he doesn't present provocation in a vacuum: he manoeuvres his audience into admiring his revelations and charity, producing a veneer of sanctity, insulating him from criticism. </p>
<p>OBVIOUSLY these guys want to distract their followers from understanding their OWN method of indoctrination and control of others' money as well as their own gross earnings.</p>
<p>Look as I may, I haven't been able to find out how much money Mike makes from his various companies because he registers them in Taiwan. As a comparison, the other woo-meister earns between 10-12 million USD over the past several years - most of it during a recession- ( from sources like spoke.com) whilst owning a few companies and 'charities' registered in Mineola Texas recently. Five at last count.</p>
<p>I think that the more financial information we can discuss about these charlatans the better.<br />
How much do they earn? How much do their homes cost? How much is each product marked up? How much do they pay employees? How much do they earn from advertisement or other fees? Do they consult as medical advisors for profit?</p>
<p>There's a wealth of dirt for someone who wants to dig.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286396">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>To clarify:<br />
10-12 million USD *per annum*</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286397">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>You got no discharge papers, you ain’t no “warrior.”</p></blockquote>
<p>Discharge papers are a necessary but insufficient condition for warriorhood, in my opinion.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Mephistopheles O'Brien" xml:lang="">Mephistopheles… (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286398">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@TBruce</p>
<p>In the artsy-fartsy New Age-y town I used to live in, many people would NOT use any “allopathic” lice treatments. Or so they said (until their kids got REALLY infested for lack of treatment). There were also a LOT of homeschooled kids (very loose and unenforced laws on that as well--State of Washington) who were not vaxed. There were also regular deaths from cancer in people who had chosen wheat grass over chemo. When this was pointed out, the response, “oh, she didn’t start the wheat grass soon enough”.</p>
<p>@BA</p>
<p>Yes, it’s a generalization, but I too run into a good many RN’s who are devotees of Mike Adams or his ilk. They get furious when required to have a vaccination for continued employment in a clinic or hospital. I blame the educational system--certain basic facts need to be drummed in during training, along with more emphasis on critical thinking.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Dorothy (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286399">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>William Wordsworth, in a letter to a friend in December 1812 about the death of Wordsworth's 6-year-old son, Thomas:</p>
<p>"Symptoms of the measles appeared upon my Son Thomas last Thursday; he was most favorable held till Tuesday, between ten and eleven at that hour was particularly lightsome and comfortable; without any assignable cause a sudden change took place, an inflammation had commenced on the lungs which it was impossible to check and the sweet Innocent yielded up his soul to God before six in the evening. He did not appear to suffer much in body, but I fear something in mind as he was of an age to have thought much upon death a subject to which his mind was daily led by the grave of his Sister."</p>
<p>We should have more nostalgia for the olden days. True, lots of children died, but it resulted in moving prose.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Dangerous Bacon (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286400">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>15: A lot of RNs went to diploma mills, plus they don't like doctors and seize on any excuse to snub them outside of work.</p>
<p>38: Best treatment we ever did for lice was tea tree oil. May be natural, but ho-ee is it strong.</p>
<p>Barajaras: "I shouldn’t fear taking my daughter to the doctor."</p>
<p>Uh, why would an anti-vaxxer do that anyway? Just to make sure that a doc's day is as unpleasant as possible?</p>
<p>Moore: “I’m not opposed to medicine, and I think vaccines have a place. We think it’s a medical choice, and it should be researched carefully.” </p>
<p>Wow, that's some primo weaseling. If you're anti-vax, you're against medicine full-stop.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Politicalguineapig (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286401">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>” Your entire reality is an elaborate manipulation”, “Who needs facts?”</i></p>
<p>So when Mike isn't resorting to <i>argumentum ad Hitleram, he's spewing postmodernist tripe?</i></p>
<p>Back in 1996, <a href="http://www.physics.nyu.edu/sokal/lingua_franca_v4/lingua_franca_v4.html">Alan Sokal</a> had the perfect reply to that kind of nonsense: "[A]nyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.)" It's harder to come up with a comparable point for basic biology, but the point still stands. There are such things as objective facts, and anyone who ignores this, as Adams does, does so at his peril.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286402">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@15</p>
<p>Dunno about your side of the Atlantic but over here nurse training (I am a former senior nurse with many years of supervising student nurses), despite improvements over the years, is still not good enough on the critical thinking and assessment of evidence part: the number of times I heard "Research shows..." when the research was nothing of the sort - as in just because it's in a book doesn't make it research - or did not show what was claimed beggared belief.</p>
<p>Mind, I could say the same about some medics of my acquaintance.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Murmur (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286403">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Eric Lund:</p>
<p>Mike isn't quite post-modern. His position is that there IS Truth- which he has- whilst what is presented as 'true' by the powers-that-be is merely illusion produced in order to control the populace. Right. He is the only one to believe.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, this is the type of tripe I read everyday as well as listening to more from other idiot- a victim of hacking. His Truth is too powerful for the Man to allow unimpeded. Sure</p>
<p>But I am immune. And someone has to do it, so why not me?<br />
( It seems that I inherited the ability to tolerate vast oceans of nonsense and surface, unscathed)</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286404">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Review portal #40</p>
<blockquote><p>While such complications are rare they do happen (please, check VAERS database). </p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, serious complications happen.<br />
Not at the rates some antivax leaders would like us to believe, but it happen, about 1 per million cases.<br />
The Smallpox vaccine had the reputation of being nastier, but eh, it's not on the schedule anymore!</p>
<blockquote><p>Should the parents of the dead child have a right to reject vaccine to their other child?</p></blockquote>
<p>I would prefer they look for advice with their physician (or three of them) rather than with a stranger on the internet, but apart from this, yes, they have ground to be cautious.</p>
<blockquote><p>How would they feel if California unconditionally mandates vaccination when they see their child dying from one?</p></blockquote>
<p>"unconditionally"? Stop blathering like the sheep you are.<br />
Prove us it's going to be the gestapo storming in and sticking you with needles, or for Pete sake's shut your gap.</p>
<p>No-one here wants this. Anyone who has a valid medical reason not to vaccinate - like, at random, a previous nasty reaction in the family - is perfectly in his/her right to skip the needles.</p>
<p>All we are for is mandatory vaccination for attendance to public schools and working in public places, like hospitals. Non-vaccinating people have plenty of other resources.</p>
<blockquote><p>Does the friends of these parents have the right to review vaccination schedule for their children when they see a child of their friends died from vaccine?</p></blockquote>
<p>Only if they have evidence that delaying the schedule is not increasing the risks of catching the illness and/or having side-reactions. Turns out, it is: delaying vaccinations increase the risk the illness it's protecting against and doesn't reduce the risk of seizure.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Helianthus (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286405">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Correct me if I'm wrong but most RN programs back in my day had watered down science pre-requisites, isn’t that still the norm? I escaped that by also attaining a BS in Biology! IMHO, the worst RNs I've encountered with anti-vax sentiments are the MSNs where most programs appear to be somewhat ethereal in nature – not focused on clinical expertise or management. All feel-good “Healing” ideologies are emphasized – Are you all familiar with the ludicrous and actually feuding “Healing Touch” & “Therapeutic Touch” movements? As others have mentioned, many higher level RNs seek to distance themselves from MDs because they consider themselves “Healers”, not clinicians.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">RobRN (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286406">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Eric Lund#57:</p>
<blockquote><p>So when Mike isn’t resorting to argumentum ad Hitleram, he’s spewing postmodernist tripe?</p></blockquote>
<p>Now you've done it! Sadmar is going to be pissed!</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">TBruce (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286407">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ RobRN:</p>
<p>Unfortunately, I know of a few woo-centric nurses:</p>
<p>-Vicki Saputo has a show on Natural News Radio, Prescriptions for Health, with her husband, a doctor<br />
- Ellen Kamhi has the 'Natural Nurse' show on PRN<br />
- Luanne Pennisi is Null's enabler in various modes, including providing access to woo-therapeutics ( her company, Metropolitan Wellness)</p>
<p>- there's a group- I'm at loss for the name now- in the US that opposes vaccination for health care workers<br />
- a few turn up on anti-vax websites as well..</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286408">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I look at Dr. Sears, Dr. Gordon, Dr. OZ etc and wonder why so many MDs are anti-vax.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Tim RN (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286409">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>NH Primary Care asked,</p>
<blockquote><p>
Why is it that so many RNs seem to be so anti-vax?
</p></blockquote>
<p>Denise wrote,</p>
<blockquote><p>
there’s a group- I’m at loss for the name now- in the US that opposes vaccination for health care workers
</p></blockquote>
<p>Denise is thinking of "Nurses Against Mandatory Vaccinations". They tried for a massive, multi-site protest last year. As I recall, there were three or four protests with a handful of protesters at each site. </p>
<p>As an antidote, there is <a href="http://www.nurseswhovaccinate.org/">Nurses Who Vaccinate</a>, which has a much more robust membership. If you are an RN, do join!</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">LIz Ditz (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286410">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Denice: Vicki Saputo used to be an actress in B-movies. She actually appears in a "Mystery Science Theater 3000" episode (incidentally the last one ever aired) riffing on "Merlin's Shop of Mystical Wonders." She plays the dad's girlfriend in the story about the toy monkey.</p>
<p>In fact, this is the part of the movie where she appears: <a href="http://youtu.be/p8Q-RuAx4V4?t=53m1s">http://youtu.be/p8Q-RuAx4V4?t=53m1s</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Sebastian Jackson (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286411">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I would hazard a guess, regarding RNs being anti-vax, that it only seems that way in reading news reports on antivaxers. Since there are a significantly larger number of nurses than doctors, as well as a larger number of mommy nurses than mommy doctors, it's easier to find an anti-vax one to interview. Also, more than 50% of RNs were not trained at the baccalaureate level, and it is my understanding that a research component of the curriculum is one of the differences between the ASN and BSN tracks to RN certification. </p>
<p>Anecdotally, the research analysis/ evidence based medicine focus of my BSN degree helped tremendously in allowing me to critically examine the claims of my woo-steeped upbringing and move into the world of real medical knowledge. I also don't know any anti-vax nurses myself. (Unless you count a couple of Nurse Midwives, and not the majority of them are anti-vax either.) I also was never told to just go with my intuition unless it involved calling in someone with more education than me if a patient just seemed off but the vital signs hadn't dropped yet.</p>
<p>Back on the topic of the post- I wonder how the vaccine-refusing Jewish Orthodox communities feel about the comparison between Nazi Eugenics and American Public Health standards.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Kristina (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286412">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Tangentially related, as in remarkably counterfactual* things AVers say</p>
<p>This little gem was written a Colorado anti-vaccine advocate who writes lots of different blogs under several pseudonyms. The title of the post is, "20 Things I Wish Vaccine Junkies Would Admit"</p>
<blockquote><p>
True herd immunity is based on animals that naturally acquired viral disease. Oftentimes immunity comes from eating the herd members that died from the disease or putting their diarrhea into feed. Farmers know that herd immunity isn’t based on vaccination.
</p></blockquote>
<p>*Of the author of this little gem, one of my pals wrote, "the cheese has completely slid of the cracker."</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">LIz Ditz (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286413">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>A little girl died of SSPE near the town where I live:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.eveningsun.com/ci_17547430">http://www.eveningsun.com/ci_17547430</a></p>
<p>When I brought it up to an antivaxxer, their reply was that the little girl was a "foreigner", so it wasn't that bad of a thing.</p>
<p>These people disgust me.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Ren (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286414">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Jan </p>
<p>"As the cases in Germany’s latest outbreak rise to around 600, the tragic inevitability has occurred – a wee unvaccinated 18 month old has died from measles.<br />
According to official statments the child was unvaccinated (and was old enough to have been) and suffered no chronic conditions." </p>
<p>Anti-vaxers are now spreading this article around with apparent glee <a href="http://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2015/02/24/toddler-dies-of-measles-in-berlin-1st-death-in-outbreak">http://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2015/02/24/toddler-dies-of-me…</a></p>
<p>"An autopsy on the child, who wasn't inoculated against measles, showed that he had an unspecified other disease as well but that wouldn't have led to his death without the measles infection, the Charite hospital said." </p>
<p>So of course, measles is still a harmless rash. It was only because this boy had some other condition that he died. </p>
<p>/sarcasm off</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Annie (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286415">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Something funny about Anne Dachel: after a lot of news sites like Raw Story picked up the story of parents giving their kids bleach enemas (full disclosure: given to them by my online Aspie group), Dachel and AoA have scarcely come to the defense of Kerri Rivera and MMS. We know J.B. Handley has no problem with MMS, but is there a limit to what even Dachel can reasonably defend?</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Sebastian Jackson (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286416">#permalink</a></em>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1286417" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424785158"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Still Shaking Mama #9:</p>
<blockquote><p>there have been 86 pediatric deaths from flu since September 28, 2014. I don’t know how that number compares to previous years, but it is a very frightening and sobering statistic. Are numbers like this brought up when people debate the flu vaccine? I wonder if that number is actually higher since not everyone will have their child tested for the flu.</p></blockquote>
<p>Someone on another forum told me that laws against drunk driving are ok because driving drunk is so dangerous, but not laws mandating vaccination because there's little immediate risk.<br />
However, the flu kills thousands of people a year in the USA. In an average year, the vaccine is 60% effective at preventing doctor visits due to the flu. If everybody got their flu shot, it should prevent more than 60% of those deaths - since if more people are vaccinated against a disease, it not only reduces their vulnerability to the disease, but reduces their likelihood of being exposed to the disease as well. Disease propagation is non-linear.<br />
About 50% of people in the USA get the flu shot. If 160 million more did, it would save thousands of lives. Which means the risk of causing death by not getting the flu shot is roughly 1/50,000.<br />
As for drunk driving - there are an estimated 112 million episodes of driving while impaired by alcohol in the USA. There are about 10,000 deaths in car accidents where an alcohol-impaired driver was involved. So, the death rate alcohol-impaired driving is about 1/10,000 deaths per episode.<br />
The cost in lives with not getting a flu shot is not so different really from the cost in lives associated with drunk driving.<br />
Even though we have a very different impression of the relative dangerousness.<br />
Stats from the CDC.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Laura (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286417">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>True herd immunity is based on animals that naturally acquired viral disease. Oftentimes immunity comes from eating the herd members that died from the disease or putting their diarrhea into feed.</i></p>
<p>I guess that's one way of avoiding measles & polio & flu.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286418">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Could we just knock it off now, dissing nurses?</p>
<p>Most nurses do not have the autonomy I had when I worked as a public health nurse, to recommend as well as administer, every vaccine that was part of the Recommended Childhood Vaccine Schedule. </p>
<p>Then, you have the "vaccine friendly doctors", such as Dr. Bob Sears and Dr. Jay Gordon, who come out against following the CDC/AAP Recommended Childhood Vaccine Schedule, who also readily admit that they have no evidence-based information.They rely on parent intuition and the sh!t testimonials that they read on Age of Autism, the NVIC and every other anti-vaccine, anti-science blog.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">lilady (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286419">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The use of Holocaust analogies is inappropriate for another reason: measles and other diseases that are now vaccine-preventable were major killers in the ghettos that the Nazis forced Eastern European Jews into. Antivax World will argue that malnutrition weakened their immunity, and I'm sure that's true, but that turns back on them; after all the vaccination of those who can safely receive it protects those among us whose immune status puts them at high risk.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Old Rockin' Dave (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286420">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Lilady: I have the utmost respect for nurses, but at the same time I think some things need to be acknowledged- like the fact that not all nursing schools are equal. Also, nurses tend to be stressed, and stressed women are easy prey for woomeisters.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Politicalguineapig (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286421">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Jews 1940 Budapest. In this lovely little ditty, the “media editor” of the antivaccine crank blog known as Age of Autism likens suggestions that the names of nonvaccinating families be made public to…the Jews of Budapest under Nazi rule.</i></p>
<p>Imma pretty sure that in 1940 Hungary had its own nationalist right-wing government with Pál Teleki as PM and Admiral Horthy as head of state. Hungary was separate from the Third Reich until 1944 when the Germans invaded and installed a puppet state with home-grown Nazis in charge.<br />
It's a good thing I'm not pedantic.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286422">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>I wonder how the vaccine-refusing Jewish Orthodox communities feel about the comparison between Nazi Eugenics and American Public Health standards.</i></p>
<p>Perhaps someone should ask the Jewish Anti-Defamation League, or a similar organization, for their thoughts on the matter.</p>
<p>If I was Jewish, I'd be pretty pissed about Mike's comparison.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">DGR (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286423">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Hungary was separate from the Third Reich until 1944 when the Germans invaded and installed a puppet state with home-grown Nazis in charge.</p></blockquote>
<p>Aye, and the Jews of Hungary and Budapest in particular were largely left alone <i>until</i> the Arrow Cross took over in 1944, when they were shipped en masse to mainly Auschwitz.</p>
<p>Fun fact: one can still see a lot of bullet holes in various locales throughout Budapest, in particular the walls around Varhegy, where the fascists held out against the Red Army for some time.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">JP (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286424">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>PGP has finally managed to piss me off.</p>
<p>Nurses put up with more hospital BS than I care to even imagine - denigrating them as a group is both uncalled for & a vile statement in general.</p>
<p>Just go the <a href="mailto:f@ck">f@ck</a> away.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286425">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Heh. Looks like Heather removed her post (or Californians against SB277 did). Good thing I kept a copy of the picture. :-)</p>
<p>On the other hand, I should have reposted all the text, the way I've done with Dr. Bob Facebook posts. :-(</p>
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<footer><em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286426">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Also, I'm also getting a little fed up with the nurse bashing going on in this thread. My wife's was an RN and now is an APRN, and I think it's starting to go a bit too far, enough to tick me off. Too bad I was in the operating room all day until now and didn't see this developing in time to nip it in the bud.</p>
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<footer><em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286427">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Imma pretty sure that in 1940 Hungary had its own nationalist right-wing government with Pál Teleki as PM and Admiral Horthy as head of state. Hungary was separate from the Third Reich until 1944 when the Germans invaded and installed a puppet state with home-grown Nazis in charge.</p></blockquote>
<p>D'oh! I knew that and forgot about it. There's no excuse for me not to have noticed that, given my longstanding interest in WWII history. Except other than its having been a bit late when I finished this post last night.</p>
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<footer><em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286428">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>a poster from today stating that “Flu shots save lives” to a Nazi advertisement lamenting how much a “congenitally diseased or handicapped person” costs the state.</i></p>
<p>Of course there are people espousing a philosophy akin to the Aktion-T4 idea, that the human race would be better-off without weaklings and poor immune systems, so VPDs are just improving the species. Except those people are not the ones advocating vaccination.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286429">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Also, nurses tend to be stressed, and stressed women are easy prey for woomeisters."</p>
<p>Did you seriously just say that? I'm with Lawrence...</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">SelenaWolf (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286430">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Lawrence: WTF. All I did was state two facts: a stressed population IS more vulnerable to woo, and nurses are very stressed, since, as you mentioned, hospitals tend to pile on the BS, Also, not all nursing programs are created equal- that's not an attack either. So should I just pretend all nurses are saints, were perfectly educated and have their lives all straightened out and perfect?<br />
I probably won't be back. I used to think you were a nice person. I guess my perception was way off.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Politicalguineapig (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286431">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>PGP: Please, take a deep breath, settle down, and go back and look at what you wrote. If you can't see why it comes across as sexist and condescending and therefore might rile people up, I'm not sure I can help you figure it out, but I, too, saw the remark that way and cringed as I read it.</p>
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<footer><em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286432">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>To be frank, no one is immune to anti-vax fever:<br />
doctors, nurses, *psychologists*, social workers, chemists, biologists, teachers, engineers, business people as well as certified woo-meisters and new age gurus.<br />
If you peruse AoA and TMR as well as other dedicated sites, you can run into most anyone. I haven't done a survey but I doubt that nurses are any worse than the above.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286433">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Oooops! I left out journalists, senators, television show hosts, comics and actresses.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286434">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Oh. And LAWYERS. How could I miss that?</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286435">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Did you get those results from the National Vital Statistics System via WONDER?</p></blockquote>
<p>The tail ends make it pretty clear.</p>
<blockquote><p>The question that Shay is raising is that the MMWR only notes 2 deaths in 2003, but doesn’t mention the other deaths</p></blockquote>
<p>The 2012 Summary of Notifiable Diseases has one in 2005 and two each in 2009 and 2010.</p>
<p>AoA is doubling (tripling?) down on the routine, with Neil Z. Miller being the latest entrant. (He also seems to be quite invested in the claim that measles prevents Hodgkin's lymphoma, while carefully omitting some <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3909764/">less chipper results</a>.)</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286436">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>As far as vaccines during the Nazi era goes, there's a really good book by Arthur Allen called The Fantastic Library of Dr. Weigl How Two Doctors Battled Typhus and Sabotaged The Nazis. He gets into subjects such as how vaccines were made during that time frame as well as how people thought about medicine. I highly recommend it.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Stacy Herlihy (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286437">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>And princes.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">shay (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286438">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sorry, that last in reply to Denise @#90. Didn't post fast enough to beat Narad and Stacy.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">shay (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286439">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@TBruce #62</p>
<p>I won't claim to have ever been devoid of all of the various meanings of "pissed" in reaction to skeptics' mis-use of 'pomo' descriptors. Mainly, it makes me sad. </p>
<p>#51 Denice cites phrases used by Mikey in article titles on NN, so RI readers will know which posts match Orac's OP without her having to provide links.</p>
<p>#57 Eric reads those phrases out of context, makes an incorrect assumption about Adams means them, and incorrectly ID's that assumption Adams doesn't actually have as "postmodernist".</p>
<p>#59 Denice explains briefly how Adams was using the phrase, and perhaps to remain agnostic on the use of 'pomo' vocabulary merely avers "Mike isn’t quite post-modern."</p>
<p>So, basically Eric just whooped up a load of conformation bias, didn't check the facts about what Adams actually said, and made a completely invalid point about Adams to reafiirm his straw-man "evil postmodernist" fantasy and give a shout-out to Asshat Sokol.</p>
<p>Actual postmodernists do not assert "the laws of physics are mere social conventions." They tend to be quite aware of the objective facts of biology and physics as applied to life and death — though jumping out a high window voluntarily probably wouldn't be their chosen exemplar. For Lyotard and Baudrillard – who grew up in occupied France, and were first and foremost anti-Fascists – that would more likely be being pushed in front of a Nazi firing squad.</p>
<p>The "postmodernist" label has been applied to scads of totally different things, so there's no True Scotsman to claim so-and-so isn't. But the core of the stuff asserts that at some point between 1950 and 1990 Western culture passed a tipping point and a new sensibility – a new way of looking at the world, of defining reality even – became common in everyday life. And the postmodernists don't <i>agree</i> with any of various takes this new culture has on 'reality'. They're just trying to understand what's going on in the culture, why it's going on, and what it means for issues of justice, equality and so forth.</p>
<p>To the matter at hand: a lot of 'pomo' culture theory and critique would be quite useful in analyzing anti-vax hysteria, explaining why Barrajas, Adams and their ilk are able to get any traction at all with truly loopy conspiracy theories – or how Adams and his fan base can arrive at a TRUTH that an Oregon State legislator seeking to tighten exemption requirements is a NAZI! Basically, Fred Jameson predicted much of our current weirdness back in '84, so a big chunk of pomo theory has now stood the test of time quite well. </p>
<p>Thus, what makes me is sad is the blanket rejection, on utterly false premises, of ideas that could help inform an effective push-back against anti-science loonies who are threatening objectively real human beings with objectively real infectious diseases – and leading objectively real patients with objectively real cancers away from objectively real treatments in ways that lead those objectively real folks to premature objectively real death for the sake of objectively real profit.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286440">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'm curious how you've come to the conclusion that a stressed population is inherently more vulnerable to woo than an unstressed population, pgp. Seems to me that if that were the case, we'd see far more firefighters, corporate executives, air traffic controllers, emergency responders, etc., extolling the wonders of essential oils and wheat grass enema's than is the case.</p>
<p>I don't think nurses embrace woo any more frequently than people in other professions. it's just taht we notice when a nurse does so more than we do when it's a hair stylist or zumba teacher, because of it's incongruity (""But she's a nurse! She's had to complete advanced course work in health and human physiology--shouldn't she know better?")</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">JGC (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286441">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@PGP - I am a good person, which I why I took great offense (finally, given the other stuff you've written in the past) to get very, very angry at you.</p>
<p>In the future, think before you type - you'll be a much better person for it.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286442">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>In other news, a single amino acid change makes measles <a href="http://www.virology.ws/2015/02/17/measles-in-the-brain-fusion-gone-awry/">neurotropic</a>. Yay?</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286443">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Oh how could we miss this:<br />
cia parker ( @ AoA/ Blaxill's post):<br />
" I am definitely in favor of letting natural measles come back".</p>
<p>( sadmar, I wasn't being agnostic but deliberately and coyly understating that he isn't pomo. He knows the absolute Truth about everything. Including g0d, the universe and gardening).</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286444">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>That "yellow star" = "anti-vax" post was copied to the <a href="https://www.facebook.com/RtAVM/posts/862907977112546">RtAVM</a> page. Many comments on it, of a different sort :)</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Laura (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286445">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Cynthia "cia" Parker is a notorious loon. She's on all the message boards telling us how much she hates her poor autistic child and how the hep b shot obviously caused her MS. She's been at me for years, calling me names, insulting my girls and telling us how much we need to have measles back. She needs help.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Stacy Herlihy (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286446">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1286447" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424793191"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>In other news, a single amino acid change makes measles neurotropic. Yay?</p></blockquote>
<p>"An interesting question is whether these neurotropic measles viruses can be transmitted by aerosol between hosts – a rather unsettling scenario."</p>
<p>Well, that's potentially terrifying.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">JP (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286447">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1286448" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424795713"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Stacy Herlihy: "... there’s a really good book by Arthur Allen called The Fantastic Library of Dr. Weigl How Two Doctors Battled Typhus and Sabotaged The Nazis. .... I highly recommend it."</p>
<p>I also highly recommend it. It is a really good read.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286448">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1286449" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424795907"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Chris, </p>
<p>Here's an interview I did with the author a few months ago. </p>
<p><a href="http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-fantastic-library-of-dr-weigl-an-interview-with-arthur-allen/">http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-fantastic-library-of-dr-weigl-an-int…</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Stacy Herlihy (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286449">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1286450" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424796428"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>They tend to be quite aware of the objective facts of biology and physics as applied to life and death</p></blockquote>
<p>You are a newbie at this, aren't you? I believe you when you say that most postmodernists don't apply pomo to physics, but I think you are unaware of just how much postmodernism has crept into medicine along with CAM/integrative medicine. I can provide examples, some pretty darned outrageous.</p>
<p>Unless, of course, you'll claim "no true Scotsman." :-)</p>
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<footer><em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286450">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Stacy Herlihy:</p>
<p>Oh we know all about her Lilady especially.Heh.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286451">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The Fantastic Laboratory not library darn it.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Stacy Herlihy (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286452">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1286453" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424797418"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Heather dear...</p>
<p>Get off your f*cking cross, someone else needs the wood.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Darwy (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286453">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1286454" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424797512"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Stacy Herlihy: "Here’s an interview I did with the author a few months ago."</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>(we are also in agreement with Cia Parker)</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286454">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1286455" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424797571"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>No no no. Its clearly about the choice to vax or not. If I don't feel it necessary to vax my child than that is my business. The fact is that we are trying to tell you pro vax mafia freaks that my decision not to vaccinate is NOT putting your children at risk because after all, you're vaccinated, right? Seems like an idiotic statement to fear an unvaccinated individual when you belive so much that vaccines are efficient. And BTW, the herd immunity theory has been destroyed. The risk of some form of neurological injury due to vaccines is significantly higher than the diseases themselves which were well on their way to down by 90% well before vaccines were introduced. Independent studies show the risk yet no one does their due diligence to investigate. Instead, you jump on the junk science bandwagon with false implications that vaccines do not cause injuries to a vast amount of infants and children and ridicule those who have enough balls to question it to protect their own. So all we want is for you to stop worrying about what I decide for my children when it DOESN'T impact you for a second. </p>
<p>1. Vaccine injuries account for 1 in 6<br />
2. They contain numerous neurotoxins<br />
3. Vaccines have failed efficacy </p>
<p>I've done my research. Weighed my options. Made the best decision based on due diligence. Period. Get over it!</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Mike P (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286455">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Mike P, is that a Poe, because I think you hit every square on the Anti-Vax BINGO card.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286456">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1286457" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424798528"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Mike P</p>
<blockquote><p>As a mother, I put my parenting decisions above all else. Nobody knows my son better than me, and the choices I make about how to care for him are no one’s business but my own. So, when other people tell me how they think I should be raising my child, I simply can’t tolerate it. Regardless of what anyone else thinks, I fully stand behind my choices as a mom, including my choice not to vaccinate my son, because it is my fundamental right as a parent to decide which eradicated diseases come roaring back.<br />
The decision to cause a full-blown, multi-state pandemic of a virus that was effectively eliminated from the national population generations ago is my choice alone, and regardless of your personal convictions, that right should never be taken away from a child’s parent. Never.<br />
Say what you will about me, but I’ve read the information out there and weighed every option, so I am confident in my choice to revive a debilitating illness that was long ago declared dead and let it spread like wildfire from school to school, town to town, and state to state, until it reaches every corner of the country. Leaving such a momentous decision to someone you haven’t even met and who doesn’t care about your child personally—now that’s absurd! Maybe I choose to bring back the mumps. Or maybe it’s diphtheria. Or maybe it’s some other potentially fatal disease that can easily pass among those too young or too medically unfit to be vaccinated themselves. But whichever highly communicable and formerly wiped-out disease that I opt to resurrect with a vengeance, it is a highly personal decision that only I and my family have the liberty to make.<br />
The bottom line is that I’m this child’s mother, and I know what’s best. End of story. Politicians, pharmaceutical companies—they don’t know the specific circumstances that made me decide to breathe new life into a viral infection that scientists and the nation at large celebrated stamping out roughly a century ago. It seems like all they care about is following unexamined old rules, injecting chemicals into our kids, preventing ghastly illnesses that used to ravage millions and have since been erased from storming back and wreaking mass havoc on a national scale, and making a buck. Should we really be listening to them and not our own hearts?<br />
I am by no means telling mothers and fathers out there what to do; I’m simply standing up for every parent’s right to make his or her own decision. You may choose to follow the government-recommended immunization schedule for your child, and that’s your decision as a parent. And I might choose to unleash rubella on thousands upon thousands of helpless people, and that’s my decision as a parent.<br />
It’s simple: You don’t tell me how to raise my kids to avoid reviving a horrific illness that hasn’t been seen on our shores since our grandparents were children, and I won’t tell you how to raise yours.<br />
Look, I’ve done the research on these issues, I’ve read the statistics, and I’ve carefully considered the costs and benefits, and there’s simply no question in my mind that inciting a nationwide health emergency by unleashing a disease that can kill 20 percent or more of its victims is the right one for my child.<br />
People need to respect that and move on.</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://www.theonion.com/articles/i-dont-vaccinate-my-child-because-its-my-right-to,37839/">http://www.theonion.com/articles/i-dont-vaccinate-my-child-because-its-…</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Laura (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286457">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1286458" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424798559"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@40 Review Portal<br />
". . . (please, check VAERS database) . . ."</p>
<p>Yes, please do. If you had read the information at <a href="http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Activities/vaers.html">http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Activities/vaers.html</a>, you might have noticed such things as ". . . Anyone can file a VAERS report, . . ." and ". . . VAERS reports may provide incomplete information. Specifically, judgments about whether the vaccine was truly responsible for an adverse event cannot be made from VAERS reports." and ". . . The report of an adverse event to VAERS is not documentation that vaccine caused the event. . . "</p>
<p>In short, even you could file a report about having heard of a co-worker's aunt's third cousin twice removed neighbor having heard about some kid who was injured by a vaccine. Citing the VAERS as a source is not going to gain you much credibility.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">sirhcton (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286458">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1286459" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424798611"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Did someone mention Ms. Parker? She herself (if you believe her any of her claims), has been diagnosed with an ASD..and is on record as hoping her autistic child is exposed to, and contracts, measles. She also claims that a Td booster vaccine which she received ~ 35 years in college, caused her Multiple Sclerosis. </p>
<p>I'll take credit for going after her for her outrageous comments which detail her baby's "encephalitic cry" and her not taking her newborn immediately to a hospital emergency room for an evaluation to rule out this life threatening encephalitis. She also claims (in spite of being an attorney) that she was unaware that she should have filed a claim before the Vaccine Court...and in spite of the fact she was provided with the VIS for the birth dose of hepatitis B vaccine given to her baby.</p>
<p>Other commenters got her to admit that her baby was born following a traumatic birth, via emergency C-section due to a "true knot" in the umbilical cord.</p>
<p>The little letter writer (Dachel's Deputy), has been busy again.<br />
Scroll down to see the last comment. :-)</p>
<p><a href="http://chronicle.augusta.com/opinion/letters/2015-02-22/vaccines-are-unavoidably-political#comment-1398399">http://chronicle.augusta.com/opinion/letters/2015-02-22/vaccines-are-un…</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">lilady (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286459">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Maybe a cartoon will get through to clowns like Mike P:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.salon.com/2015/02/24/this_is_what_the_measles_virus_actually_does_to_the_body/">http://www.salon.com/2015/02/24/this_is_what_the_measles_virus_actually…</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Michelle (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286460">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1286461" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424799779"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>History fail on my part earlier in the thread, BTW. The mass deportation of Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz started in the <i>spring</i> of 1944, before the Arrow Cross took power. There was a stay, though, on deportations in the summer - the Arrow Cross <i>restarted</i> deportations after taking power. <i>Budapest's</i> Jews, for whatever reason, had not been deported before the stay, though tens of thousands were murdered under the Arrow Cross. (They still had a better chance, it seems, of surviving than did Jews in the Hungarian countryside; I have a close friend from college who's more or less a confirmed ex-pat living in Budapest, and his girlfriend is Jewish. She said that her ancestors managed to survive the Shoah mainly by virtue of being fortunate enough to live in Budapest.)</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">JP (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286461">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>If I don’t feel it necessary to vax my child than that is my business.</p></blockquote>
<p>Sure. And if public-health law dictates that you get to homeschool as a result, that is <b>your</b> problem.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286462">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i> The mass deportation of Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz started in the spring of 1944, before the Arrow Cross took power</i><br />
And despite the independence of Hungary when Horthy was in charge, they had happily passed Nuremberg laws in 1938.</p>
<p><i>They still had a better chance, it seems, of surviving than did Jews in the Hungarian countryside</i><br />
I'd like to think that Raoul Wallenberg contributed to that.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286463">#permalink</a></em>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1286464" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424800927"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>On nurses being anti-immunization: to paint the entire nursing profession as undereducated or emotionally motivated is unfair (and I don't think was the original poster's intent). That said, ANA did dip their toes in the thimerosal kiddie pool at a really inopportune time:</p>
<p><a href="http://nursingworld.org/MainMenuCategories/Policy-Advocacy/Positions-and-Resolutions/ANAPositionStatements/Position-Statements-Alphabetically/Mercury-in-Vaccines.html">http://nursingworld.org/MainMenuCategories/Policy-Advocacy/Positions-an…</a></p>
<p>I don't think they've retracted it in light of newer evidence; they should. They also put out a pocket guide for consumers on mercury with an environmental group that was super misleading and badly done. Around the same time, there was a labor group representing publicly employed nurses who were opposing workplace vaccination policies and using anti-immunization kook code in their talking points; I get the impression that was one person's individual axe grinding, and haven't heard anything like it for quite some time. </p>
<p>Some level of criticism is warranted, but some of the best, most vocal, and effective advocates for immunizations also happen to be RNs. Save your anger for the snake oil salesmen.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">sadasd (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286464">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I’d like to think that Raoul Wallenberg contributed to that.</p></blockquote>
<p>And his reward was death in f*cking Lubyanka.</p>
<p>That building still stands in Moscow. It is an evil sight.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">JP (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286465">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>In somewhat more recent and amusing "news" (if you hadn't heard about it) of anti-Semitism in Hungary, a leader of Hungary's blatantly anti-Semitic far-right part Jobbik (the name of which is extremely funny if one is familiar with Slavic languages) <a>found out that he's actually Jewish.</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">JP (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286466">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>As JP's link is broken, <a href="http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.553645">here's</a> the <i>Haaretz</i> follow-up.</p>
<p>Chabad he could maybe <a href="http://thebeaconmag.com/2013/04/opinions/on-chabad/">do without</a>.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286467">#permalink</a></em>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1286468" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424803012"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>JGC: I’m curious how you’ve come to the conclusion that a stressed population is inherently more vulnerable to woo than an unstressed population, pgp. Seems to me that if that were the case, we’d see far more firefighters, corporate executives, air traffic controllers, emergency responders, etc., extolling the wonders of essential oils and wheat grass enema’s than is the case.</p>
<p>Well, Sid is a firefighter (assuming he's not lying, which he probably is). Steve Jobs was a corporate exec, and we all know what happened to him. Dunno about the others; air traffic people and emergency responders tend to be more of a practical turn of mind. Firefighters might be more vulnerable because of back pain.<br />
I think so many actors and actresses turn to woo because they can't distinguish between reality and on screen life after a few years, and they were never very pragmatic in the first place. Be interesting to take a poll of the stunt men and women though.</p>
<p>Orac: I can see that what I said seems a bit sexist. I should've expressed it better.</p>
<p>Basically, what I meant is that men and women cope with stress very differently. Women look for groups that will talk about stress, find placebos, hypnosis or practice yoga. They prefer quick fixes, since working women still have to go home after their shift and often get stuck with the heavy-lifting. No one thinks twice if a man goes out for the evening to drink, but that's not an option available to women with families. (At least, not until the kids turn 18.)<br />
Men overwhelmingly prefer to self-medicate. The first path tends to lead overwhelmingly towards woo, since most meds available for stress aren't really that great, and yoga is basically a gateway drug. Men can and do get snared by woo, but it seems to me that it's like five women to every man in wooville. I tend to come down harder on the women, as many are very bright, and it's sad to watch them waste their lives and squander every other woman's credibility. The guys, at least, aren't dragging every other man down with them.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Politicalguineapig (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286468">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>A few links I found on Facebook today.<br />
The antivaccine movement...from 1890-1920.Except for the autism angle,it's all there.The toxins,the forced vaccination, profiteering vaccine makers.</p>
<p>Oh and they had their own songs too.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/blog/anti-vaccination-society-america-correspondence">http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/blog/anti-vaccination-society-…</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/02/05/meet-the-crunchy-chemical-hating-anti-vaccine-conspiracy-theorists-from-100-years-ago/">http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/02/05/meet-the-cru…</a></p>
<p>Nothing new under the sun.</p>
<p>More on what measles can do,years later.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.vaccinestoday.eu/vaccines/how-measles-can-change-a-life/">http://www.vaccinestoday.eu/vaccines/how-measles-can-change-a-life/</a></p>
<p>Did you know measles was unknown before it was brought to Earth by a Dalek space probe 1000 years ago? It's true!</p>
<p><a href="http://lewstringer.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/happy-birthday-daleks.html">http://lewstringer.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/happy-birthday-daleks.html</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Roger Kulp (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286469">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@PGP</p>
<p>Stop. Just stop. First, you cherry pick examples to confirm your biases. Then you make an insulting stereotype about actors/actresses. And you finish off with more insulting, sexist stereotypes about men and women.</p>
<p>As has been pointed out to you countless times before, <i>stop using such broad fucking brushstrokes. The world is a lot more nuanced than you seem to grasp.</i></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Todd W. (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286470">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ PGP:</p>
<p>You're trying. Which is progress.</p>
<p>Sometimes it's hard to put EXACTLY what we mean into words- we take shortcuts that others misunderstand because we assume they already know what we mean. This is especially hard on the 'net without direct interpersonal feedback. Also hyperbole is expressive.</p>
<p>Perhaps rather than saying, "Men do X and women do Y" - which sounds like "ALL men" and "ALL women" with no overlap, it might be better to say, "Men are more likely than women to do X" or "More men than women do X".</p>
<p>Believe it or not, there is research about sexual differences in attitude and activities. Unfortunately, this area is fraught with difficulties. But still, you might want to have a look.</p>
<p>It's good to remember that even if a sexual difference is found to be significant, it doesn't mean that there is no overlap- if women are better than men at doing Y, some women can be worse and some men can be better- some men and women may be equal. Imagine two overlapping bell curves...<br />
Oh no, I'd better not go all SDT on you... you know what I mean.</p>
<p>Well, at least THAT was certainly easier than pomo.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286471">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>On the Jews of Budapest, another rescuer was an Italian cattle broker (Can't recall his name.). On business to buy animals, he befriended the Spanish consul just before the consulate was closed. The consul left him the keys and his car to serve as caretaker. He posed as the consul, drove around in the consular car with the Spanish flag on it, and "granted" Spanish citizenship to any Jew with any imaginable connection to Spain. Like Wallenberg, he rented housing and made the buildings "consular" property. The number he saved was in the low thousands, if memory serves.<br />
As good an illustration of chutzpah as any I know of.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Old Rockin' Dave (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286472">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Narad</p>
<p>I figured they were WONDER data from the info at the ends, but just wanted to confirm. Thanks for the additional link to the 2012 summary.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Todd W. (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286473">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>As JP’s link is broken, here’s the Haaretz follow-up.</p>
<p>Oh, thanks, Narad. The <i>Haaretz</i> article is better than the one I'd linked to, anyway.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">JP (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286474">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Apparently I can't blockquote today either. I blame Kierkegaard.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">JP (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286475">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Though, rapped up in this is *according to schedule*. So; one size fits all -- If I may borrow a sadmarism, "Tim's J.C. Whitney Theory of Imprecise Universality". </p>
<p>It is still playing statistics and some are going to get burned. Maybe even some cheerleaders here. </p>
<blockquote><p>“No man survives when freedom fails, the best men rot in filthy jails, And those who cry ‘appease, appease’ Are hanged by those they tried to please.”</p></blockquote>
<p> -- Hiram Mann<br />
If there were not risk, then why a minimum age for 'the schedule'? It implies some minimization of risk.</p>
<p>Nobody can say there is not problems with vaccines. Some may have discernment to realize when it is a bad idea for their particular 'speshul snowflake' and be correct; But parental right/insight is removed. Some portfolios may be heavy in Merc, et al. and chose to stay on this ill-gotten bandwagon. But now will be a bureaucratic mandate so that 'it wasn't really your fault'. </p>
<p>It is sooo easy for Statists to get along with themselves when there is nothing more to reality than Boltzmann.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Tim (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286476">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I think what many of those who feel so hostile toward parents who don't vaccinate, is that many of us DID vaccinate, for YEARS...but had to stop when our children were seriously injured by vaccines. </p>
<p>My husband and I have two vaccine-injured children. Their injuries included: encephalitis, permanent and dramatic cognitive and behavioral changes, development of autistic-like behaviors, sensory processing disorder, Failure to Thrive, muscle degeneration, multiple episodes of apnea so severe we thought they had ALREADY died of SIDS, and at one point, my oldest LOST THE USE OF BOTH OF HER LEGS 16 hours after her Kindergarten boosters. Thankfully, she regained the use of her legs, but not before doctors assured us we were very lucky that she "wasn't left permanently paralyzed in both legs".</p>
<p>Our son was never the same child again after his 4 month shots. The damage he incurred that day will affect every day of the rest of his life. And the changes he suffered after his MMR have complicated his life even more.</p>
<p>We were told by a doctor that our subsequent children would likely be vulnerable to vaccine-injury. So, we eventually made the choice to stop vaccinating.</p>
<p>My children have a familial history of epilepsy, they all have the same autoimmune disorder, they have allergies, and obviously - a familial history of severe adverse reactions to vaccines.</p>
<p>These used to be things which the top minds in the field identified as contraindications to vaccines. It was that way for DECADES. It only changed recently, and evidently suddenly.</p>
<p>That means, whereas we likely could have obtained a medical exemption for them a decade ago, we almost certainly won't find a doctor to give them one now. Even though NOTHING has changed in re: to the fact that the odds are stacked against them for walking away from a vaccination uninjured.</p>
<p>So now, my two youngest children, who are unvaccinated (and very healthy), who would have been considered not good candidates for vaccination not that long ago, suddenly have no guidelines in place to protect them from the same fate (or worse) as their older siblings.</p>
<p>PLEASE KNOW that many, many families who refuse to vaccinate have ALREADY watched one or more of their children suffer, regress, and even die from vaccines. And THAT'S when they stopped. They trusted the system UNTIL then.</p>
<p>Nobody is going to take ANY responsibility for injuries my clearly vulnerable children may sustain as a result of forced vaccination (if it passes). They will be considered (as my oldest two are) as collateral damage in the quest to nurture the Greater Good.</p>
<p>You know what? My children are not "collateral damage". They are living, breathing, amazing, loving human beings who have a lot to offer this world - they don't deserve to be treated as subhuman and irrelevant. And they sure as hell don't deserve to have their health and/or cognitive function mutilated just because they were unfortunate enough to be born into a body that can't tolerate vaccines as well as most other people.</p>
<p>Imagine it is YOUR child in my children's position. What would you do then?</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Brandy (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286477">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I blame Kierkegaard.</p></blockquote>
<p>The football is a demipolytetrahedron.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286478">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Severn Darden will always be Dr. Gene Meredith to me.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286479">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>in today's Guardian, Oliver Burkeman has one of those essays warning liberals not to get too self-righteous about the coservative science deniers since "Nobody is immune from resisting science they wish weren’t true."</p>
<p>Duh. Of course Burkeman persists in his false equivalence / 'false balance' despite revealing various contrary pieces of evidence. But the whole 'liberals do it too' take is supported b the famiiar canard that "The anti-vaccine movement seems to be a largely left-wing phenomenon."</p>
<p>But what has me face-palming is the link he puts on that text as evidence of his assertion. <a href="http://tinyurl.com/pkpzd3e">http://tinyurl.com/pkpzd3e</a><br />
This 'argumnet' is such ridiculously BAD SCIENCE Burkeman should lose his job at the guardian for foisting it under the banner of legitimate research. It was published in a right-wing.propaganda 'pro-science' blog (as opposed to the prevailing conservative ant-science sites) operated by Forbes.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286480">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#81<br />
is this the text from Barajas?<br /><a href="https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1032081286805962&id=380959335251497&substory_index=0">https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1032081286805962&id=3…</a></p>
<p>also at <a href="https://www.facebook.com/RtAVM/posts/862907977112546">https://www.facebook.com/RtAVM/posts/862907977112546</a></p>
<p>and she seems to be premed<br /><a href="https://thepoxesblog.wordpress.com/2015/02/23/to-the-vermont-coalition-for-vaccine-choice-vaccine-requirements-are-exactly-like-the-holocaust/">https://thepoxesblog.wordpress.com/2015/02/23/to-the-vermont-coalition-…</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">j a higginbotham (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286481">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Todd W: The world is a lot more nuanced than you seem to grasp.</p>
<p>No, it's really not.</p>
<p>DW: At least you sort of get my point. Men have a lot more socially sanctioned escape routes that don't lead into woo. Women tend to gradually fall into it, and then rapidly double down on the woo to keep their friends and prestige.</p>
<p>Roger Kulp: Thanks for the history lesson, but I think you took a wrong turn on the intertubes. Or did you do this on a dare for your "friends" at Age of Autism? (Tip: they aren't really, you know. I wonder why you keep punishing yourself by commenting there?)</p>
<p>Brandy: At this point, I hate to say it, but your choices are rapidly narrowing into 'keep the kids home forever and never let them hang out with any other children.' If you're telling the truth, the kids have had some pretty scary reactions, and the diseases would probably be even worse. It's not us you should be mad at, it's the parents who are falsely obtaining medical exemptions or getting the philosophical exemptions, and the doctors who hand out those exemptions like candy.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Politicalguineapig (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286482">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>You’re trying. Which is progress.</p></blockquote>
<p>"I'm a guide, not a sheep-dog."</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286483">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Politicalguineapig:</p>
<blockquote><p>Todd W: The world is a lot more nuanced than you seem to grasp.</p>
<p>No, it’s really not.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes it really is.<br />
Politicalguineapig, you're a hypocrite. You are as prejudiced, biased and narrowminded as the people you claim to be fighting against. You don't realise that your sweeping generalisations are sweeping generalisations, that a lot of people in the groups you attack are not like your generalisations, and that they would be justifiably annoyed by them. I get very irate when ignorami generalise about me.<br />
On an earlier post, someone mentioned the axiom "If you run into one jerk, you've run into one jerk. If you're constantly running into jerks, maybe <i>you're</i> the jerk."<br />
In your comments, you come across as both extremely abrasive and very antagonistic, Politicalguineapig. Maybe you should engage in significant introspection.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286484">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Bandy: "My husband and I have two vaccine-injured children."</p>
<p>How well did you fare with the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program? Those injuries sound so profound, you must have had compensation for table injuries.</p>
<p>I have a kid injured by an actual disease, there is no "National Disease Injury Compensation Program." So I keep wondering what has the greater risk of injury, the vaccine or the actual disease. Do you have an answer to the relative risk?</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286485">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>This ‘argumnet’ is such ridiculously BAD SCIENCE Burkeman should lose his job at the guardian for foisting it under the banner of legitimate research. It was published in a right-wing.propaganda ‘pro-science’ blog</i></p>
<p>You get the impression that Oliver Burkeman decided he needed an example of a specifically left-leaning manifestation of reality-denial, and went hunting around the interlattice in search of a study which supported his thesis. Immediately after reminding his readers of the dangerous allure of motivated reasoning and cherry-picked evidence.</p>
<p>He did not do himself any favours by citing Jonathon Haidt, either.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286486">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>We were told by a doctor that our subsequent children would likely be vulnerable to vaccine-injury.</p></blockquote>
<p>I'm going with <a href="http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2015/02/23/measles-vaccine-children-school-california/#comment-1872010075">hit and run</a>.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286487">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Brandy, why didn't your doctor(s) who diagnosed vaccine-induced encephalitis in two of your children, make reports on the VAERS system?</p>
<p>I don't think that medical contraindications against receiving certain vaccines have changed. Could you provide links to CDC websites to verify your statement? I'm always willing to learn.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">lilady (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286488">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Daniel Welch @ 28 nails it utterly: narcissism with the details spelled out. America has a pandemic of personality disorders, sociopathy in high places and narcissism throughout. IMHO the big public freak-out about autism has become an "identified patient" syndrome to avoid dealing with that, or perhaps even a deliberate distraction.</p>
<p>The item "dumb luck / God's will harmed my kid" vs. "I harmed my kid," is interesting. There's an odd fluke in human cognition whereby people seem to believe that the harm caused by a deliberate failure to take an action, is less of an act of will, and less morally culpable, than the harm caused by deliberately taking an action. </p>
<p>Contrast to the Taoist idea that "not-doing is doing," whereby both have equal standing, including equal degrees of personal responsibility, from which we can derive that both have equal moral standing as well.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Gray Squirrel (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286489">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>My children have a familial history of epilepsy... These used to be things which the top minds in the field identified as contraindications to vaccines. It was that way for DECADES.</i></p>
<p>I am intrigued. When was a family history of epilepsy ever regarded as a contraindication against vaccination?</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286490">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>it’s like five women to every man in wooville.</p></blockquote>
<p>Women are somewhat more likely than men to believe in some kinds of pseudoscience, and have less science literacy on average. <a href="http://www.ropercenter.uconn.edu/public-perspective/ppscan/125/125024.pdf">http://www.ropercenter.uconn.edu/public-perspective/ppscan/125/125024.p…</a><br />
Although where I live, it's more a cultural thing. There are plenty of very irrational males around, too.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Laura (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286491">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Pgp - did you read Roger Kulp's links? (Hint - he would be banned from AoA in a heartbeat.)</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Brook (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286492">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>To me it seems that the most important point in this post was only briefly mentioned- that nobody is suggesting people will be forced to vaccinate. Even if all of these bills passed, vaccination would still be optional. It's not like it will be a crime to be unvaccinated, and the vaccination police will hold kids down and stick needles in them.<br />
Reading through some of these comment-feuds, this point seems to be completely lost. All of these arguments defect back to heated comments about science, data, social responsibility etc.<br />
This shouldn't even be an issue. Those people can choose not to vaccinate all they want, but they will have to accept certain trade-offs in what privileges they have.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">R. Mutt (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286493">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Brandy <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/02/24/as-states-try-to-crack-down-on-non-medical-exemptions-to-school-vaccine-mandates-antivaccinationists-lose-it/#comment-387150">writes</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>My husband and I have two vaccine-injured children. Their injuries included: encephalitis, permanent and dramatic cognitive and behavioral changes, development of autistic-like behaviors, sensory processing disorder, Failure to Thrive, muscle degeneration, multiple episodes of apnea so severe we thought they had ALREADY died of SIDS, and at one point, my oldest LOST THE USE OF BOTH OF HER LEGS 16 hours after her Kindergarten boosters. Thankfully, she regained the use of her legs, but not before doctors assured us we were very lucky that she “wasn’t left permanently paralyzed in both legs”.<br />
Our son was never the same child again after his 4 month shots. The damage he incurred that day will affect every day of the rest of his life. And the changes he suffered after his MMR have complicated his life even more.</p></blockquote>
<p>What makes you think all this was caused by vaccines?<br />
Maybe your children have these problems for some other reason.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Laura (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286494">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Laura<br /></p><blockquote>Someone on another forum told me that laws against drunk driving are ok because driving drunk is so dangerous, but not laws mandating vaccination because there’s little immediate risk.</blockquote>
<p>But antivaxers think drink driving is "healthful". It certainly isn't as harmful as driving whilst sober.</p>
<p>Why do they think that?<br />
Because 85% of the fatalities occur in drivers who are sober.<br />
Well, they don't really think that (I hope), but to be consistent they should do, using their "Most kids who get measles/pertussis are vaxed" logic.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">dingo199 (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286495">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Herr Doctor B<br /></p><blockquote>When was a family history of epilepsy ever regarded as a contraindication against vaccination?</blockquote>
<p>Trying to recall my med student days in the 1970s, I think that was indeed the received wisdom regarding pertussis vaccine anyhow.</p>
<p>(Someone also told me that the reason you should avoid pertussis vaccination in a child with a family history of epilepsy was because if that child subsequently developed epilepsy, then the parents would not be able to (wrongly) blame the vaccine. I could be misremembering though)</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">dingo199 (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286496">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>When was a family history of epilepsy ever regarded as a contraindication against vaccination?</p></blockquote>
<p>I'm not sure when exactly the change in recommendation happened, but here's <a href="http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000917.htm">what the CDC had to say about it in 1987,</a> the year I was born:</p>
<blockquote><p>The risk of neurologic events after DTP vaccination is very small. Most neurologic events (primarily febrile seizures, but including nonfebrile seizures, encephalopathy, or other neurologic symptoms) that occasionally follow DTP vaccination occur in children without known risk factors. However, recent studies suggest that infants and children with a history of convulsions in first-degree family members (i.e., siblings and parents) have a 3.2-fold increased risk for neurologic events compared with those without such histories (CDC, unpublished data). Nevertheless, these children are still at very low risk for serious neurologic events following DTP vaccination. Convulsions within 3 days of DTP vaccination may be unrelated to vaccination, induced by vaccine components, or initiated by vaccine-associated fever in those children prone to febrile convulsions. Although children with a family history of seizures have an increased risk for developing idiopathic epilepsy, febrile seizures (including those following vaccinations) do not themselves increase the probability of epilepsy or other neurologic disorders (2,3).</p>
<p>After careful deliberation, the ACIP has concluded that a family history of convulsions in parents and siblings is not a contraindication to pertussis vaccination and that children with such family histories should receive pertussis vaccine according to the recommended schedule (1,4). The committee reached this decision after considering 1) the risks of pertussis disease, 2) the large number of children (5%-7%) with a family history of convulsions, 3) the clustering of these children within families, and 4) the low risk of convulsions following pertussis vaccination (1-3,5). </p></blockquote>
<p>I was sort of curious because I do have a family history of epilepsy on my mom's side, but not in any first degree relatives - so it looks like that wouldn't have been considered a contraindication even before the recommendations changed.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">JP (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286497">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I noticed another objection of, "What right does he have to propose a law like that?"<br />
Not realizing that section 8 of the US Constitution requires our leaders to promote the welfare of the United States and hence, the populace.<br />
The preamble:<br />
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."</p>
<p>Section 8;<br />
"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"</p>
<p>So, there isn't a "right", but a responsibility to promote the welfare of the nation and her populace.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Wzrd1 (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286498">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>And there is the Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 1905 decision, which basically said the exact same thing.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286499">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So, your belief that stressed populatons are more vulnerable to woo is based on observing a 'population' with an <i>n</i> of 2, Robert Schecter and Steve Jobs?</p>
<p>Really?</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">JGC (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286500">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Though, rapped up in this is *according to schedule*. So; one size fits all — If I may borrow a sadmarism, “Tim’s J.C. Whitney Theory of Imprecise Universality”</p></blockquote>
<p>.<br />
Tim, your evidence that with resepct to routine childhood vaccination one size does<i> not</i> fit all--that individuals vary significantly that personalizing vaccination schedules would reduce risk the risks associated with vaccines sufficiently to justify leaving individuals vulnerable to infection for extended periods of time--would be what, exactly? Be specific.</p>
<blockquote><p>If there were not risk, then why a minimum age for ‘the schedule’? It implies some minimization of risk.
</p></blockquote>
<p>How does it imply risk? Improved safety is hardly the only reason why one would establish minimum age ranges for specific vaccinations, after all. For example, with respect to MMR the minimum age recommendation reflects teh fact that prior to this the presence of circulating maternal antibodies may interfere with the child developing an adequate immune response to the vaccine strain measles and generating a protective titer.</p>
<blockquote><p>Nobody can say there is not problems with vaccines.</p></blockquote>
<p>And nobaody has: what has been said (accurately) is that the risks associated with vaccines are well undertood: those that are common are both transient and minor (low grade fever, soreness at the site of injection) while those that are serious (encphalitis) are all but vanishingly rare, such that the known risks associated with being vaccinated are far, far lower (by orders of magnitude) than the known risks associated with reamining vulnerable to infection.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">JGC (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286501">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Brandy, how have you factually established that the injuries you're attributing to vaccination actually were caused by the vaccines they received? Your list includes a lot of conditions that, as far as I'ma ware anyway, are not known to be causally associated with vaccination.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">JGC (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286502">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I like how anti-vax people call it a "one-size fits all" schedule, when you look at it & see that there is a huge amount of leeway in when those various shots are given (i.e. there are ranges of "months").</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286503">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I think there's another side to the "Dumb luck" versus "I harmed my kid" dichotomy.</p>
<p>If it's the vaccines, I choose not to have my kids vaccinated and avoid having a 'vaccine injured' child. I'll will be in control, and I can stop it from happening to me.</p>
<p>If it's dumb luck of god's will, on the other hand, I have no control. It might happen to my kids, and there's nothing I can do about it..</p>
<p>So I simply <i>have</i>to believe it's the vaccines. That's the only way I'll ever feel like I'm in control and I can stop it from happenong to me.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">JGC (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286504">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/02/24/as-states-try-to-crack-down-on-non-medical-exemptions-to-school-vaccine-mandates-antivaccinationists-lose-it/#comment-387210">dingo199 #150</a><br />
That would be an excellent question to ask in response to "most of the people who got X were vaccinated against it", e.g. "Most of the fatalities in drunk driving accidents weren't actually drunk drivers, does that mean that driving drunk is OK?"<br />
Get them to think about it :)</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Laura (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286505">#permalink</a></em>
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<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Indeed, Lawrence. We just got our midterm report cards for our kids, and the one for our eldest included a reminder that vaccinations are important in light of the ongoing measles concerns and a few cases of pertussis in the community. They helpfully included a photocopy of the state's recommendations. The date of each vaccine is given as a very wide bar spanning many years; they just recommend you get it somewhere in that time period. And they don't care what brand vaccines you use or how they get grouped or anything like that; they just wantw to make sure that you have, at some point, gotten vaccinated against diseases X, Y, and Z. They also provide a catch-up schedule if your child isn't vaccinated adequately yet, and they'll let you keep your kid in school as long as you submit an affidavit that you're doing catch-up vaccines.</p>
<p>Spacing out vaccines to far beyond the CDC's recommendations is totally allowed. It's just not advised. Somehow this is interpreted as jackbooted thugs marching into your home to forcibly inject your child. I don't think it's really a persecution complex, though; I think it's just another piece of the justification web as non-vaccinating parents try to shore up the logical walls around their decision.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Calli Arcale (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286506">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Calli - although both of my kids are fully vaxed, we needed to re-jigger the actual schedule / time of some of the vaccines due to a couple of times the boys being sick for that particular visit....working with our pediatrician was simple.</p>
<p>I don't think anti-vaxers actually speak to their doctors (perhaps they just lecture them).....</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286507">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Brook: I did read Roger Kulp's comment, and I have seen him several times on Age of Autism.</p>
<p>Julian: Why do you even care about anti-vaxxers? Considering how often people like Sid go off on you, you're being surprisingly charitable.</p>
<p>JGC: It's not just them. See: all the nurses we were talking about, military wives, and former businesswomen who unwisely plunged into homemaking. All these people are stressed and end up deeply immersed in woo.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Politicalguineapig (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286508">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Random question: Does anyone have a source for how many babies (under 2) died from measles in the US pre vaccine? </p>
<p>I see the 400-500 death statistic for overall deaths posted a lot but haven't been able to find it broken down any more than that.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Annie (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286509">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'm not Julian, but I care about anti-vaxxers because even if you consider aggressive ignorance a sin, their children are innocent victims. Also because reducing human suffering is a good thing, whether or not the sufferers are "worthy" according to some standard or other.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Vicki (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286510">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I agree that it's not just them, pgp, but I don't agree that all people who are stressed will liekly end up deeply immersed in woo. The number of nurse who embrace woo are after all a small percentage of the total number of RN's, just is as thepercentage of doctors. military wives, etc, who do so despite all experiencing stress. Steve Jobs may have embraced woo; clearly Bill Gates does not.</p>
<p>I think it is again a perception bias: we notice a nurse or doctor who embraces woo because doing so is incongruous behavior. We notice the celebrities who do because they make for good press. And because we notice these, but fail to notice the shoe salesmen, cosmeticians, HVAC installers, accountants, middle school teachers, etc., who do so we falsely presume people embracing woo must be over-expressed in these professions.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">JGC (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286511">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Vicki<br />
Yes, and it's a good idea to remember that everyone has their biases and is vulnerable to irrational convictions to some extent.<br />
People who are friendly and sociable and don't take an us vs. them attitude will have more success in talking to anti-vaxxers and getting them to question their beliefs.<br />
Although some very friendly, caring people get demonized anyway, just for being on the other side of the fence. Paul Offit (pro-vaccine advocate) for example, seems to me a very caring doctor - but he gets demonized a great deal by anti-vaxxers. I guess demonizing and endless name-calling is something that anyone who bravely wades into that sea of irrationality, has to put up with. "Source derogation" is one way that people defend irrational beliefs - derogatory ideas about the people who contradict their belief.<br />
I'm careful to not attack or insult in discussions about people's irrational convictions. Usually people reciprocate to some extent and are fairly civil, but I get attacked sometimes anyway.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Laura (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286512">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Nurses have some medical knowledge, and may have a sense of being a health expert. So when they're attracted to anti-vaccination beliefs, they can use this sense of expertise to support those beliefs.<br />
Same thing would apply to doctors as well, only more so.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Laura (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286513">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@PGP</p>
<p>You may have read Roger Kulp's post and links, but you clearly didn't understand it, if you think that he is "friends" with people at AoA. His post is pretty clearly pro-vaccine.</p>
<p>As to sweeping generalizations, you pretty regularly complain about how others you disagree with make sweeping generalizations and discriminate against people like yourself, yet you do exactly the same thing. You'd think that one of these times when the rest of us point this out to you for the umpteenth time, you'd get it. But you don't. You just keep making the same kind of black-and-white, ignorant and insulting comments.</p>
<p>As to why we care about anti-vaxxers, in addition to what Vicki said, even though we may disagree with them, there's always the chance that we might be able to bring them around to reality. They are human beings just like the rest of us, prone to the same foibles. At the risk of Godwinning the thread, if you dehumanize them, you risk going down the same path that countless despots have gone before. That makes it easier and easier to do sh**ty things to them.</p>
<p>Doesn't it mean anything to you that the majority of people that are on the same side of the vaccine/woo issue as you are telling you to cool it?</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Todd W. (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286514">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Most measles stats I've seen by age tend to be under 5 not under 2. Usually the under fives and the over twenties have higher complication risk and I assume one of those is death. </p>
<p>Haven't seen any older data broken down, just more recent.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">KayMarie (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286515">#permalink</a></em>
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</article></footer></article><article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1286516" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"><mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424868433"></mark><div class="well">
<strong></strong>
<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Gray Squirrel #144, R. Mutt #148, Wzrd1 #153, JGC #159:<br />
Yes, yes, yes, yes!</p>
<p>A problem in thinking how to counter woo is separating the effects of hard-wired human tendencies from what we might consider 'pathological deviance'. I'm not sure placing more weight on action than inaction is a 'fluke'. It would seem likely to have evolutionary advantages, and thus be hard-wired-ish. And it's something most people do.</p>
<p>The narcissistic tendencies, however, seem to be a minority phenomenon, and (lay person that I am) I don't see how they'd be hard-wired. Not to say they're inconsistent with 'human nature' just not of its essence.</p>
<p>Wzrd observes social responsibility is written into the U.S. Constitution, which is interesting in that the framers were classical liberals, e.g libertarians (small 'l'). This suggests they'd thought things through enough to conclude that individual liberty could only be maximized if combined with some sort of collective action which amounted, to some degree, to everyone looking out for everyone else.</p>
<p>So we coud consider anti-vax as the influence of narcissism on the tension between individual rights and social responsibility, tipping the delicate balance to what amounts to criminal behavior: MY right to send MY kid out into the community as a disease vector.</p>
<p>With Big Issues riding behind this controversy, it's not that surprising that the very simple and limited terms of the proposal Mutt notes get glossed over. R.'s right, of course, that the proposal just attached reasonable limits on privilege in the wake of certain choices. Any policy proposal, no matter how narrow and modest, simply IS going to pull out those Big Issues. However, I take Mutt's point to be that the proposal in question has <i>already considered and balanced these philosophical questions</i> to a degree we should able to set them aside as <i>policy</i> issues, and re-focusing on the pragmatic and specific 'choice limits privilege' equation here could cut through a lot of the noise. So, yeah, we could and probably should bring that more to the front of the discussion.</p>
<p>Imho, JGC's observation on 'control' really cuts to the heart of the deeper dynamic here. While narcissistic tendencies no doubt exacerbate the quest for illusions of control, that's pretty obviously a more general and long-standing thing. There's a big difference between 'dumb luck' and 'God's will' though. If there are supernatural forces making judgements, we can have a measure of control by learning their desires and conforming behavior to their will. There IS something "I can do about it." Humans do seem to be hard-wired against fully accepting 'sh!t happens' as a working hypothesis.</p>
<p>Still, there's something beyond 'the way things have always been' in the particular quest for control of "it <i>must</i> be the vaccines!" For one thing, as a conspiracy theory, it articulates a narrative of the individual re-acquiring control that has been usurped by other human agents, and specifically not agents acting as individuals, but in social forms: Big Government and/or Big Pharma.</p>
<p>Now, it seems to me that one of the lessons of science is that things don't happen for no reason. Mass doesn't move unless a significant amount of force is applied to it, etc. So, it won't do to think the quest for control in anti-vax is just stupidity, cluelessness, lunacy, etc. In truth, none of us are ever in control, but we manage the illusion that we're in control enough to get by. The question then becomes 'how/why did the anti-vaxers lose that sense of control?'</p>
<p>If only to somewhat reduce the tl:dr obstacle of really long comment blocks, I'll put my thoughts on an answer in a separate comment.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286516">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Brook & PGP,<br />
I used to post a lot of comments ay AoA,mostly in threads that dealt with autism itself,not vaccines,but I no longer go there,those people have gone off the deep end as far as vaccines are concerned.</p>
<p>For a number of years,I thought I might find something in common with the antivaxers,because they seemed to be the only ones who acknowledged there were serious medical problems that go along with autism,and as seemed to offer an alternative to the neurodiverse view of autism.I now see both sides are dead wrong,but for very different reasons.There is a desperate need for a "third way" autism movement.</p>
<p>I have an autism diagnosis that was originally very low functioning,but with no problems in speech or language.I have had two autism evaluations,one as a child,one as an adult.Both times,the conclusion was I was so low functioning,with so many behavioral issues,I needed to be put in an institution or group home,under full time supervision.</p>
<p>I have a ridiculous number of medical problems,and have had many regressions.I now have multiple metabolic diagnoses.The ones described in the research of Richard Frye.As a result of treating my cerebral folate deficiency,I have improved dramatically.I am as close as possible to saying I am recovered from autism as long as I continue treatment,but I still have a lot of medical issues.Treating my CFD has given me a much more realistic perspective on all sections of the autism community.</p>
<p>My posting at AoA a few years ago got me in touch with a doctor who shares a lot of AoA's belief on vaccines,but who was the only one willing to do any metabolic and genetic tests on me as an autistic adult.Tests that allowed me to get in to see the top metabolic and mitochondrial specialists in the country as far as autism is concerned,and for that I am grateful beyond words.But I don't think that could happen today,given the current climate at AoA.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Roger Kulp (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286517">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I can't believe this is happening. I knew the antivax parents in Oregon were well organized, and that AoA has been putting up the batshit signal to rally opposition to SB 442, but I never in a million years imagined that Andrew mother***king Wakefield would come to testify. Holy Crap, we are so far down the rabbit hole.<br /><a href="http://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/news/health/2015/02/24/andrew-wakefield-vaccine-oregon/23967797/">http://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/news/health/2015/02/24/andrew-wak…</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Jen Phillips (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286518">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Politicalguineapig, I wasn't referring to antivaxxers. I was referring to your comment @ 56 where you said:</p>
<blockquote><p>A lot of RNs went to diploma mills, plus they don’t like doctors and seize on any excuse to snub them outside of work.</p></blockquote>
<p>And at 76, where you said:</p>
<blockquote><p>nurses tend to be stressed, and stressed women are easy prey for woomeisters</p></blockquote>
<p>which is a sweeping generalisation.<br />
Orac @ 87 said it best.</p>
<blockquote><p>If you can’t see why it comes across as sexist and condescending and therefore might rile people up, I’m not sure I can help you figure it out, but I, too, saw the remark that way and cringed as I read it.</p></blockquote>
<p>Then in #123 you made a lot of sweeping generalisations about large groups of people. I don't know if you know this, but actresses Amanda Peet, Jennifer Garner, Jennifer Lopez, Sarah Michelle Prinze and Kristen Bell all actively advocate for vaccines, and that's just off the top of my head. Also if you can't see why</p>
<blockquote><p>I tend to come down harder on the women, as many are very bright, and it’s sad to watch them waste their lives and squander every other woman’s credibility. The guys, at least, aren’t dragging every other man down with them.</p></blockquote>
<p>is both appallingly sexist and inaccurate, you lack self-awareness.<br />
As for:</p>
<blockquote><p>Why do you even care about anti-vaxxers?</p></blockquote>
<p>I was actually calling you out for unfairly maligning other groups.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286519">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Chris</p>
<blockquote><p>Mike P, is that a Poe, because I think you hit every square on the Anti-Vax BINGO card.</p></blockquote>
<p>Aren't Poes supposed to be funny?</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">justthestats (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286520">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Not necessarily, just unhinged. Mike P's evidence free rant qualified.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286521">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>post-modernism<br />
I <em>think</em> sadmar's trying to say that it's not pomo to think that everything is just an opinion. It's pomo to think that lots of other people think that practically everything is just an opinion.</p></blockquote>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">justthestats (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286522">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>JTS #177<br />
...more or less, yes.</p>
<p>Lots of people thinking everything is just an opinion could be considered part of 'the postmodern condition' if that's taken to be more prevalent lately than in earlier eras. Phliosophical relativism is quintessentially modern thought, but it could be taken to have been amplified, spread, and spilled over all bounds of reason in the last 50 years or so.</p>
<p>What 'pomo' scholars do is try to observe changes in the culture, figure out why they've occurred, and make educated guesses about the consequences. Some of them venture an opinion that these things may be positive, negative or more often some measure of both. Others just stop at observing/explaining/extrapolating and leave any questions of normative evaluation open. There's no consensus in the 'field' about any of this — either what exactly is different now, or what to make of any of the major contending factual hypotheses should they 'prove' to be correct. So the conferences, journals, books that deal with 'pomo' are filled with arguments about these things.</p>
<p>The debates break down, then, into a fair number of different camps with quite different perspectives. One significant camp is folks who find 'postmodern culture' to be a definite Thing, a fairly thorough and extreme Thing, and have a lot of worries about the consequences of that Thing for democracy, social justice and so forth. That's the camp I'm in. And to the list of our worries, you can add 'proper respect for and good use of scientific knowledge.' Fwiw.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286523">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Re: Postmodernism</p>
<p>I think part of the reason pomo evokes such a visceral response among many scientists is that early postmodernists, those who <i>defined postmodernism</i> to a large degree, really were involved in some pretty egregious ridiculousness when it came to commenting upon science. Lyotard, for instance, admitted later in life that when he wrote about science he was <i>literally just making sh*t up.</i></p>
<p>I personally don't find pomo to be a satisfying stance even within the humanities; the poets I dig are (sometimes self-consciously) <i>not</i> postmodern, despite the era in which they wrote. As a reaction to the horrors of the twentieth century, I find humanism in the classical sense provides better ground to stand on, personally.</p>
<p>I can see why people are into pomo, though, and even how it has its utility at times. Thing is, it really should stick to <i>narratives</i>, political or otherwise. In science, you really do need to sit down with your #2 pencil and get to the <i>right answer.</i> When it comes to political/nationalist narratives, though, fixating on <i>the right answer</i> can have disastrous consequences. Ethnic nationalism, for instance, comes about because of a certain <i>narrative</i> about, say, the Volk, and how it was once great and is now humiliated, and arrives at a certain <i>right answer</i> about how to "remedy" the situation. Disrupting narratives like these is a worthwhile goal.</p>
<p>Re: Epilepsy</p>
<p>The mention of epilepsy this morning jogged my memory about a certain sci-fi novella, titled <i>Press Enter</i>, which I read in middle school. It was published in 1984, actually - I first read it in a "Best of" anthology, I think. (I had a friend in middle school whose dad had a whole <i>basement</i> full of old science fiction books, and he used to send me home with paper sacks full of paperbacks.)</p>
<p>I looked it up after Ukrainian today and reread it; it's still an oddly enjoyable read. There is a bit at the end involving a microwave oven that will possibly become seared in your consciousness as it was in mine, lo those years ago. <a href="http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CDkQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lunsfordnet.com%2Fget%2Fpdf%2F8594&ei=dvDtVOSdOIalyQSskoGoCQ&usg=AFQjCNHrFjxxvQc1HxitOJnyfyBzUxj6AQ&sig2=-p9HotaNAK7s_gfo_4HT1A&bvm=bv.86956481,d.aWw">PDF here.</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">JP (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286524">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>This ‘argumnet’ is such ridiculously BAD SCIENCE Burkeman should lose his job at the guardian for foisting it under the banner of legitimate research. It was published in a right-wing.propaganda ‘pro-science’ blog (as opposed to the prevailing conservative ant-science sites) operated by Forbes.This ‘argumnet’ is such ridiculously BAD SCIENCE Burkeman should lose his job at the guardian for foisting it under the banner of legitimate research. It was published in a right-wing.propaganda ‘pro-science’ blog (as opposed to the prevailing conservative ant-science sites) operated by Forbes.</p></blockquote>
<p>Of course it's bad science. It's Alex Berezow, a right wing hack who, in response to the "Republican War on Science" rhetoric co-wrote a giggle-inducing book entitled <em>Science Left Behind: Feel-Good Fallacies and the Rise of the Anti-Scientific Left</em> in 2012, just in time for the Presidential campaign.</p>
<p>He was discussed extensively in the comments by a well-known "friend" of this blog in this post:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/progressive-mythology/">http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/progressive-mythology/</a></p>
<p>Berezow's arguments, it would appear, have not improved in two and a half years.</p>
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<footer><em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286525">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>In The Daily Beast today:</p>
<blockquote><p><b>They Don’t Want an Autism Cure</b><br />
Neurodiversity advocates argue that people with autism shouldn’t be forced to fit into society, but that society should change to include and accept them.</p></blockquote>
<p>I suppose it would be mind-blowing to anti-vaxers to consider 'vaccine injury' may not be injury to their kids, just injury to their self-image, social status, pocketbook, etc.</p>
<blockquote><p>While [a study] shows that people with autism have mixed feelings about their disorder, a large majority feels neutral to positive about the concept of neurodiversity.</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/okfcafm">http://tinyurl.com/okfcafm</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286526">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@NH Primary Care Doctor-I am an RN and I can't really answer your question (why are so many nurses opposed to immunizations), but I have some ideas. </p>
<p>Most hospital nurses have only an associate degree in nursing, with little science background. They usually work in tertiary care units in hospitals, not in community health. They don't usually see kids, and the adults they see don't usually have communicable diseases. Community health nurses, e.g. those who work in public health and doctor's offices, are pro-vaccine. It both cracks me up and makes me angry at the same time when someone tells me that their spouse (brother, sister, aunt, uncle, sister-in-law, etc) works in CCU and doesn't think measles vaccine, for example, is necessary.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Katarina Witt (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286527">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"To be frank, no one is immune to anti-vax fever:<br />
doctors, nurses, *psychologists*, social workers, chemists, biologists, teachers, engineers, business people as well as certified woo-meisters and new age gurus."</p>
<p>Too True! Maybe because there are a lot of engineers in my neck of the woods, but I sure know a lot who are anti-immunization. They do all these crazy calculations such as you read on these boards and decide that their personal chance of getting a disease is practically nil. They don't understand that maybe a 10% chance (or whatever) of getting the flu in a given winter is actually a fairly high chance, not a remote one.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Katarina Witt (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286528">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It's amazing just how many "anti-vax" haters I've encountered that think it's OK for them not to keep up with the vaccine schedule because they "were vaccinated as children and/or have been exposed to some of these illnesses". I guess they only take the CDC's advice when it applies to OTHER people. The fact remains that adults are extremely undervaccinated compared to children - and they have been responsible for many recent outbreaks, yet there will NEVER be forced vaccination of ADULTS in the US (for many reasons) and I think that's just a bit hypocritical - especially since I've talked with many "anti-vax" haters that openly admit they've only had their childhood vaccinations (like many other adults).</p>
<p>Facts:<br />
"Adult vaccination rates are EXTREMELY low."<br />
"Most adults are NOT aware that they need vaccines."<br />
"There are many missed opportunities for vaccination because many healthcare professionals are not routinely assessing adult vaccination status."<br /><a href="http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/patient-ed/adults/for-practice/standards/">http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/patient-ed/adults/for-practice/standard…</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">James (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286529">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Katerina Witt...There's no need to defend Registered Nurses who work in public health . I refer you to my comment, here, where I mentioned the unique autonomy I had to administer vaccines to children (and adults) without a physician's order. I damn well know the parameters of public health nursing, when I "advised" physicians about vaccines, immunoglobulins, blood tests, cultures and prescribing antimicrobials for treatments of V-P-Ds and the ~ 60 other CDC notifiable diseases that I investigated during my tenure as a public health nurse clinician-epidemiologist. Most registered nurses do not have that autonomy. They may only vaccinate patients with a doctor's order; many hospitals have "standing orders" in place to offer pneumonia vaccines and seasonal influenza vaccines before patients leave the hospital and some hospitals have "standing orders" to offer the Dtap booster, influenza vaccine and to maternity patients prior to their release...if they refused those vaccines during pregnancy.</p>
<p>pgp:</p>
<p>Where are those diploma mills which award R.N. degrees to permit a graduate to sit for registered nursing boards?</p>
<p>Why do you reduce every registered nurse to a stereotype of your own devising?</p>
<p>pgp: I'm in a rare mood right now and I'm taking the gloves off...so reply at your own risk.</p>
<p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/02/24/as-states-try-to-crack-down-on-non-medical-exemptions-to-school-vaccine-mandates-antivaccinationists-lose-it/#comment-387076">http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/02/24/as-states-try-to-crack-dow…</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">lilady (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286530">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Correcting my arkward post...</p>
<p>^ They may only vaccinate patients with a doctor’s order; many hospitals have “standing orders” in place to offer pneumonia vaccines and seasonal influenza vaccines before patients leave the hospital and some hospitals have “standing orders” to offer the Tdap booster and influenza vaccine and to maternity patients prior to their release…if they refused those vaccines during pregnancy.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">lilady (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286531">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ PGP:</p>
<p>Well, I'm glad that you recognise what I'm trying to say. I hope you listen to what others say in criticism. If you attempt to say EXACTLY what you mean, without assuming that others will automatically understand, you'll be ahead of the game. More careful speech is important. I think that your heart is in the right place and that you have strong feelings which you express via hyperbole which people may mis- interpret. </p>
<p>About people's attitudes regarding sex roles, woo, SBM at al:.<br />
There are polls and surveys that can be useful. Psychologists study stereotypes - with many articles and theories available. I especially am fond of the idea that perhaps - on some level- stereotyping may be as aspect of how human memory works, reducing informational load, relying upon a prototype, employing cognitive 'miserliness'-<br />
HOWEVER ( big HOWEVER) although it may be a human characteristic to seek out patterns to the detriment of using new information,<br />
it is also human to develop new, higher cognitive processes, such as those which self-critique performance, regard the perspective of other people, understand how memory works and can be a biasing factor, tailor communications to a selected audience, see our own weak points, manage emotional response and attempt self-regulation and improvement. </p>
<p>AND I understand how infuriating these TMs can be. We have to remember though we see only a SELF-selected - not a representative - sample. The loudest and most attention-seeking.</p>
<p>-btw- I learned that Kim S has a new book coming out- it focuses upon young women with ASDs. Her AoA facebook announcement of this was accompanied by a photo of uh... cleansing products best left to the imagination.<br />
I feel sorry for her daughters if they read about themselves ( courtesy of her writing).</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286532">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Speaking of AoA, Adriana's got part 2 of her "weaponized analogies" series up. I've just barely skimmed it so far, but my eyes have landed on references to Camus, gay rights, Israel, the Argentine junta, and peanut allergies. Which will apparently cause the downfall of our nation, or something.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">JP (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286533">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Oh, and the KKK. I think this installment may top the first.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">JP (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286534">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>One thing I never get is why nurses appear so vulnerable to anti medicine views. Granted, the existence of Dr Sears shows that it isn't unique but embracing some woo like essential oils, homeopathy is one thing, being actively against science backed medicine is the other. The former is merely embracing intergrative medicine lies, rejecting vaccines is being actively against medicine.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">PainRack (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286535">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Oops...not sure why the second part of the paragraph was deleted. </p>
<p>I was wondering whether the concept of lies to patients might play a role. Telling a patient allopurinol is removing toxins from cancer cells is technically true when used in prophlactic tumour lysis syndrome, but it appeals to a different cultural context entirely, all in the name of treatment compliance.</p>
<p>Perhaps, in the inner subconscious, this might be a lash back against the possibility of being lied to for compliance purposes and that the true story is more complex. Insert a modicum of Dunning Krueger effect and well....</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">PainRack (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286536">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>I feel sorry for her daughters if they read about themselves</i></p>
<p>Indeed.</p>
<p>I love this quote from a review for her "House of Cards" endeavor.</p>
<p>"#186 - I hate to complain so much since this book was a free offer"</p>
<p>The "free offer" just cracked me up.</p>
<p>Maybe I'm just a mean person.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">DGR (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286537">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>my eyes have landed on references to Camus, gay rights, Israel, the Argentine junta, and <b>peanut allergies</b></p></blockquote>
<p>Cynthia Parker also <a href="http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/02/bombs-away-part-2-weaponized-analogies-and-the-war-on-medical-rights.html?cid=6a00d8357f3f2969e201b7c75468b0970b#comment-6a00d8357f3f2969e201b7c75468b0970b">gazillions down</a> on the peanut delusion:*</p>
<p>"The Hib vaccine is the most implicated in causing peanut allergy (according to Fraser), both because it is adjuvanted with peanut oil and doesn't have to put it on the package, and because <b>the Hib molecular structure resembles that of peanut protein</b>, so injecting it often sensitizes the immune system to anything resembling the Hib molecular structure (cross-reactivity)."</p>
<p>* Sorry, but I'm calling a spade a spade.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286538">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>^ In the comments.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286539">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Oh, and the KKK. I think this installment may top the first.</p></blockquote>
<p>You are perhaps unfamiliar with Gamondes' <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/12/01/the-anti-vaccine-movement-shows-just-how/">finest moment</a>.</p>
<p>The since–memory-holed item* is preserved <a href="http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/cannibal.jpg">here and there</a>.</p>
<p>* They seem to have figured out how to Occupy! use the Wayback Machine's deletion mechanism.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286540">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Yeow..... Didn't realise the comments had RN bashing in it.... Should had read the comments before posting.</p>
<p>I'm a RN for six years working in haematology, and over the years, I seen a small number of nurses express both woo friendly comments, vaccine fears and lack of faith in chemotherapy.</p>
<p>The last is easy to see why. Inpatient nurses don't get to see the successes. the hospital policy of advising us not to befriend former patients on Facebook makes that much harder to see former patients now fishing, diving, and the Lucky sonnofagun having an amazing vacation in Bali.....</p>
<p>My HOD even recognised that, roping in transplant nurses to participate in the Hope book,where we documentated the life stories of transplant patients in recognisation of our 100th successful BMT, so that all of us, doctors,nurses get to see how our efforts have made a difference. It was a welcome change... Instead of seeing a patient requesting to be let home so he can visit his grandson wedding despite beingn critically ill... Of another saying I don't want to go on because I'm suffering, even if its curative, I'm so old that it won't make a difference.....</p>
<p>The second is only human. My context was mostly to do with flu vaccines. And pregnant mothers. You....can't shake that fear away. Especially when working near drugs that cause birth defects from antibiotics like grancyclovir onwards, or how steroids are labelled with the symbol poison... Its why I ask whether the concept of lies to patients might play a role.</p>
<p>The first is Perhaps the only negative aspect I can cast upon them. But .... Such woo is part of the milieu of health culture, something that training is suppose to erraducate but humanity has the most amazing powers of holding incompatible ideas simultaneously...</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">PainRack (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286541">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Gamondes' true hilarity, though, lies in the fact that her pseudo-philosophical word salad reduces her to trying to hold the operation together with ever more psychically closeted propaganda imagery.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286542">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ JP #179<br />
'Lyotard's 'The Postmodern Condition' is primarily concerned with propositions of fact, and only secondarily with propositions of value. The central fact claim is 'the postmodern condition is characterized by incredulity to the meta-narratives of inexorable technological progress and inexorable progress towards human liberation.' One can agree that's happening, and still find it really disturbing (if one is, say, Jurgen Habermas). Lyotard's actually fairly vague regarding how he evaluates the developments he sees, but overall he seems fairly cheery about them, perhaps indiscriminately along the lines you suggest. </p>
<p>As with most influential thinkers, Lyotard's ideas were taken up, extended, amplified, exaggerated etc. by other people. These 'Lyotardians' are often way more celebratory of the fraying of this modernist narrative or that than ol' J. F. was himself, and they can take exactly the evaluative position you did (science fraying bad, Volk fraying good) or (yuchh) the opposite thesis. In any case, I call this "Happy Postmodernism."</p>
<p>All the major pomo stuff was first published in English around the same time: '83-'84. Jameson and Baudrillard were just as influential as Lyotard, but their propositions of fact were much more extreme than 'people don't believe in progress anymore, and have retreated into little sub-groups that can't talk to one another even if they want to.' They both say we're losing the ability to communicate at all, to make any kind of sense at all. Baudrillard doesn't deny an objective reality; he insists on it. He just claims the culture in general has lost the ability to tell the fake from the real thing, and in practice the fake has become a 'hyper-real' with more reality-effect than the real-real. Of course, that sounds insane, but exemplars are a dime-a-dozen if you stop and think for a minute using that frame. Where outside of hyper-reality can Ronald Reagan become president? (c.f. Michael Rogin, <i>Ronald Reagan: The Movie</i> UC Press, 1987). I call this Apocalyptic Postmodernism. None of it had anything to do with science, at least not directly.</p>
<p>If there's any connection at all between the cacophonous arguments within actual 'postmodernism' and the ridiculous univocal caricature lodged in the head of so many sciency types, it might be that no form of pomo is particularly optimistic about the social project of advancing scientific rationality. Today, in his post on Brian Clement, Orac wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>There are times when it really does feel as though we’re fighting a hopeless battle for rationality and science against unreason and harmful quackery. </p></blockquote>
<p>To which Lyotard and Baudrillard nod quietly and soberly from their graves. Back in 1984, the theorists of postmodern culture not only saw the battle for rationality faring badly, they predicted things were going to get worse for the rationalists. A lot worse.</p>
<p>And where are we? Anti-vax hysteria is unleashing waves of preventable infectious disease. The political party that denies AGW and evolution — chalking them up to insidious anti-American and anti-Christian conspiracies – holds both Houses of the federal legislature. Their reality-disconnect on science is exceeded by their reality-disconnect on economics, history, guns — you name it, they've got it wrong on matters that ought to considered objective fact. And their partisans are ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED of their rectitude. In the 60s and 70s we called these folks the lunatic fringe. Today we call them Congressmen. And their gang has filled their bubble with their own set of 'facts' on all of these things, incontrovertible evidence from which they cannot and will not be disuaded. </p>
<p>Think postmodern culture isn't a Thing? I give you the Republican party and Fox News: pomo incarnate.</p>
<p>So maybe you'd think philosophers who predicted our current trajectory over 30 years ago, and tried to explain it in terms of historical developments in the culture, might have been onto something? And maybe if we understood the weirdness better, we'd have a better idea how to deal with it? </p>
<p>But then we'd have to know what those different folks have actually said in those arguments they've been having over in their corner for the last 30 years. Instead the same ludicrous, completely false stereotype gets reproduced over and over in massive Dunning-Kruger by people who can't cite even ONE primary source on the subject accurately. Talk about stupid...</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286543">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Narad: Age of Autism really "did jump the shark", by publishing Gamondes not-so-clever illustration:</p>
<p>Here, complete with Kim Stagliano's remarks:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.examiner.com/article/did-age-of-autism-jump-the-shark">http://www.examiner.com/article/did-age-of-autism-jump-the-shark</a></p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">lilady (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286544">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Narad: Age of Autism really “did jump the shark”, by publishing Gamondes not-so-clever illustration:</p>
<p>Here, complete with Kim Stagliano’s remarks:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.examiner.com/article/did-age-of-autism-jump-the-shark">http://www.examiner.com/article/did-age-of-autism-jump-the-shark</a></p></blockquote>
<p>"For the truly masochistic, use them to play the Age of Autism Drinking Game where you drink every time an article hurls baseless insults at those that don’t agree with them. Drink twice if they compare their critics to Nazis."</p>
<p>Some friends and I once devised a drinking game based on <i>Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?</i>, in which one was required to fix a drink every time the characters did. I suspect the AoA drinking game would be as difficult as ours.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">JP (not verified)</span> on 26 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286545">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>But then we’d have to know what those different folks have actually said in those arguments they’ve been having over in their corner for the last 30 years. Instead the same ludicrous, completely false stereotype gets reproduced over and over in massive Dunning-Kruger by people who can’t cite even ONE primary source on the subject accurately. Talk about stupid…</p></blockquote>
<p>Careful there. I suspect it has nothing to do with stupidity, but rather with a refusal to wade through mountains of <i>abominable and seemingly deliberately obfuscatory</i> prose, a position which I can grok quite well indeed. A lot of the postmodernists make Bakhtin and even <i>Lukács</i> seem easy to follow. Okay, maybe not Lukács, although he is more readable in the original German.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">JP (not verified)</span> on 26 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286546">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ JP:</p>
<p>AoA presents Gamondes' entire opera/ oeuvre ( see contributors) - I just scrolled thru' and Yiiiiiiiiiiii! there's enough word salad to feed a vegan army! </p>
<p>Be that as it may, I occasionally regard proselytisers like Gamondes as our inadvertent allies:<br />
becauseif most people look at her ideas would wonder why anyone would take her seriously for ANY reason.</p>
<p>Similarly, alt media woo-meisters like Adams and Null: when they are held up as paragons of thoughtfulness, perception and virtue, we can point out the ridiculous advice and predictions they have made based upon their vaunted expertise in diverse subjects across the board.<br />
e.g. 2009 - take your money out of the stock market, it'll never recover; there will be gangs taking over suburbia and a solar storm that will wipe out electrical power for a decade, 2010, 2011, 2012 etc.</p>
<p>AND most of their nonsense still exists - buried under the mire of more recent detritus, true- on their websites.<br />
Thanks, loonies!</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 26 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286547">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ PainRack:</p>
<p>Quackwatch includes an older essay about why health professionals might succumb to woo. It's worth viewing as well as their other more general musings upon why woo sells.</p>
<p>More recently, there have been studies about why particular cognitive styles and personalities might be more vulnerable to conspiracy theories, etc. IIRC *lack*of cognitive complexity and a general paranoid style. This is relatively easy to find altho' I don't have my finger on it presently.</p>
<p>I think it's interesting to read James Laidler's account ( see Autism Watch) about how the 'scales fell from his eyes' concerning autism dietary woo. His medical degree didn't hurt this enlightenment either surely.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 26 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286548">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Just read an account of an Italian study that confirmed conspiracy theorists there only consult supportive web sites. Big surprise.</p>
<p>Many nurses here are anti-vax, I think. I've had several disturbing conversations with nurses about this over the years. It may be due to the libertarian and highly religious nature of this very conservative community. Few of them have BSNs because the local nursing labor force is very largely ASN, so there is an absence of training in research methodology or critical thinking skills, it seems. I've met many nurses here who drop hints about their ongoing conflicts with physicians and resentment of how little respect they earn from the medical infrastructure. Also have gotten much uninformed advice about reasons to try alternative/complementary treatments first before trusting the recommendations of those demeaning conventional doctors--no kidding. It's unethical and largely goes unmonitored here.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Sara (not verified)</span> on 26 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286549">#permalink</a></em>
<article typeof="schema:Person" about="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0"><div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="https://scienceblogs.com/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /></a>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>And here's the latest atrocity from California -</p>
<p><a href="http://www.kcra.com/news/swastika-display-at-river-park-home-angers-neighbors/31466096">http://www.kcra.com/news/swastika-display-at-river-park-home-angers-nei…</a></p>
<p>These people are, in fact, crazy.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 26 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286550">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>And I will say, it hasn't been confirmed that this has anything to do with vaccines - it may just be a crazy anti-Semite.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" xml:lang="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 26 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/714/feed#comment-1286551">#permalink</a></em>
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<div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>it may just be a crazy anti-Semite.</p></blockquote>
<p>May? Um, I don't see <i>any</i> indication <i>anywhere</i> that this has <i>anything</i> to do with vaccines, actually, let alone any kind of confirmation of said association.</p>
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<footer><em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" proper