Differences between Coptic & Catholic Church

Comments

No, this is not a trick question and I am glad that you answered a big NO.

But how can we interpret this verse from 2 Kings:

"So he said, You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so." 11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; andElijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."

What I want to clarify, is that there is a difference between heaven as paradise, and heaven in the context of the kingdom of Heaven.

We call Heavenly Jerusalem Paradise in the St Basil Liturgy (the prayer before As it was)

So, when you read about St Mary's body taken to heaven, it refers to Paradise not the Kingdom of heaven

Dear Imikahil,

Thank you for the clarification. i value your contributions.I do not have difficulty understanding Elijah's whereabouts, but I am still confused with your position regarding the Virgin Mary and here is why:

For example, when it says the Queen sat at the right hand of the bridegroom, is that in paradise or in heaven? or is it something that is going to happen after the judgement? In other words, right now, where is the Queen sitting??

The question is: Did this, the sitting of the queen, happened at the time of David when he wrote the verse? Or did it happen later? Notice the past tense of the verb sat.

This prophecy could mean different things, it could mean the Church or St Mary. In either case, this sitting won't be realized till after the second coming.

The sitting on the throne signifies enthronement which will not be realized till the Son's enthronement as St Paul says when everything submits to the Father.

If St. Mary is enthroned now, it means that she won't be subject to the second coming. This is against the Bible teaching as in Matthew 16:27, Romans 2:6

No, this is not a trick question and I am glad that you answered a big NO.

But how can we interpret this verse from 2 Kings:

"So he said, You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so." 11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; andElijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."

What I want to clarify, is that there is a difference between heaven as paradise, and heaven in the context of the kingdom of Heaven.

We call Heavenly Jerusalem Paradise in the St Basil Liturgy (the prayer before As it was)

So, when you read about St Mary's body taken to heaven, it refers to Paradise not the Kingdom of heaven

Dear Imikahil,

Thank you for the clarification. i value your contributions.I do not have difficulty understanding Elijah's whereabouts, but I am still confused with your position regarding the Virgin Mary and here is why:

For example, when it says the Queen sat at the right hand of the bridegroom, is that in paradise or in heaven? or is it something that is going to happen after the judgement? In other words, right now, where is the Queen sitting??

The question is: Did this, the sitting of the queen, happened at the time of David when he wrote the verse? Or did it happen later? Notice the past tense of the verb sat.

This prophecy could mean different things, it could mean the Church or St Mary. In either case, this sitting won't be realized till after the second coming.

The sitting on the throne signifies enthronement which will not be realized till the Son's enthronement as St Paul says when everything submits to the Father.

If St. Mary is enthroned now, it means that she won't be subject to the second coming. This is against the Bible teaching as in Matthew 16:27, Romans 2:6

Ok, how about the second part of my question? Fr Atanasius has mentioned about the Prohecy of the Queen sitting at the right hand of the Son.. Yet, his conclusion is very clear..If he is wrong, why is there no protest from the church?? Sorry for my insistence, I am trying to understand your position better.

No, this is not a trick question and I am glad that you answered a big NO.

But how can we interpret this verse from 2 Kings:

"So he said, You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so." 11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; andElijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."

What I want to clarify, is that there is a difference between heaven as paradise, and heaven in the context of the kingdom of Heaven.

We call Heavenly Jerusalem Paradise in the St Basil Liturgy (the prayer before As it was)

So, when you read about St Mary's body taken to heaven, it refers to Paradise not the Kingdom of heaven

Dear Imikahil,

Thank you for the clarification. i value your contributions.I do not have difficulty understanding Elijah's whereabouts, but I am still confused with your position regarding the Virgin Mary and here is why:

For example, when it says the Queen sat at the right hand of the bridegroom, is that in paradise or in heaven? or is it something that is going to happen after the judgement? In other words, right now, where is the Queen sitting??

The question is: Did this, the sitting of the queen, happened at the time of David when he wrote the verse? Or did it happen later? Notice the past tense of the verb sat.

This prophecy could mean different things, it could mean the Church or St Mary. In either case, this sitting won't be realized till after the second coming.

The sitting on the throne signifies enthronement which will not be realized till the Son's enthronement as St Paul says when everything submits to the Father.

If St. Mary is enthroned now, it means that she won't be subject to the second coming. This is against the Bible teaching as in Matthew 16:27, Romans 2:6

Ok, how about the second part of my question? Fr Atanasius has mentioned about the Prohecy of the Queen sitting at the right hand of the Son.. Yet, his conclusion is very clear..If he is wrong, why is there no protest from the church?? Sorry for my insistence, I am trying to understand your position better.

With all due respect to his reverence, he is the only one who is advocating this position. The teaching of the Church is clear.

If you have read the book, you may have notice that he is advocating this position based on an alleged sermon by Pope Tawodosios which lacks authenticity within the Church. In fact, this sermon has many theological errors and is not accepted in the Coptic Church.

Imikahil, I STRONGLY disagree with your position, but nevertheless thank you for clarifying your position.

It is not just Fr Athanasius, but Fr Tadros has said the same things as well. You are not saying why the church is not protesting against their incorrect teaching?? Why would their book be online or in stores, if as you say the sermon of the Pope is not accepted in COC ?? Would you not think Fr Athansius knows that as well?? The story told by Pope Tawodosios' is in the synaxarium of the COC.Why has it not been removed, if it is rejected by the church or is riddled with errors as you claim?? There are many questions that should be answered..

If the above views are yours only, then it is another matter.If not and whenever it is convinent for you, I shall be grateful for any OFFICIAL (not individual) church sources that supports your views on the status of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

It is not just Fr Athanasius, but Fr Tadros has said the same things as well. You are not saying why the church is not protesting against their incorrect teaching?? Why would their book be online or in stores, if as you say the sermon of the Pope is not accepted in COC ?? Would you not think Fr Athansius knows that as well?? The story told by Pope Tawodosios' is in the synaxarium of the COC.Why has it not been removed, if it is rejected by the church or is riddled with errors as you claim?? There are many questions that should be answered..

If the above views are yours only, then it is another matter.If not and whenever it is convinent for you, I shall be grateful for any OFFICIAL (not individual) church sources that supports your views on the status of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Thanks.

The Synexarium never said that St Mary's body united with her soul and that she is sitting at the right hand of God.

Abouna Tadros never said the above either.

Metropolitan Bishoy has already spoken against this heresy on his web site. Though he presented different reasons from the ones I did present here.

We have an old exposition in Tarteeb al bay3a manuscript which used to be read on the feast of st. Mary (16th of Misra) that never said that St Mary resurrected and sitting in Kingdom of Heaven. (the Synexarium is a partial section of this exposition)

The story od St. Mary's death and burial, in this alleged sermon by Pope Tawodosius, is different than what is in the Synexarium. This means it sets a different tradition than what is already has been received in the Church.

On top of that, This sermon is full of theological errors that cannot be written by our Pope Tawodosius. At best, it is forged.

The resurrection of St Mary is a Heresy that goes against the plan of salvation.

[quote author=Severian link=topic=69.msg158227#msg158227 date=1343528823]^Do you have proof of the assertion that this speech is forged? And what say you of the extensive Patristic quotations provided which seem to point to the Dormition of the Theotokos?

I have been asking for those quotations ... I myself did not find any.

Further, if we affirm that she is ever-Virgin because we do not wish to defile he womb which bore God, would we not be desecrating said womb by claiming that her body decomposed like those of normal human beings?

I never said that her body decomposed. God forbid. I think you are confused of the issue at hand.

The belief of the Church is that her body is kept in in heaven and her soul is in Paradise.

The forged sermon claims that St Mary already resurrected (her soul united to her body) and has enetered the Kingdom of Heaven (which is different than Paradise). This we do not accept.

[quote author=Severian link=topic=69.msg158230#msg158230 date=1343530854]Forgive me, I misunderstood your position, not necessarily the Church's, IMHO. Thank you for the clarification and forgive me for misunderstanding you.

But what makes you say that the sermon by St. Theodosius is a forgery? Is there historical evidence to believe this?

Yes there are many. God willing, I will point them later.

In addition, the story presented in it is different than the tradition received by the Church.

I must say, you really speak with utmost authority. Can you please provide references as to how/why you believe these are forgeries, and explain also (using the fathers) why this is such a terrible *t*radition (not *T*radition) in the Church? For those who don't know the difference between "tradition" and "Tradition", a "tradition" is something you can choose not to believe, and still be counted among the faithful. For example, the stories from the holy family's time in Egypt are "traditions", you can choose not to accept them and not be counted against the faith. "Traditions" however, are different. You cannot choose to reject the "Tradition" of the Trinity, for example, and count yourself Orthodox. The tradition of the Assumption of the Virgin, is just that, a tradition. It was never binding on the people, but is a beautiful one nonetheless.

I'm not sure if you are aware, but this is a universally accepted tradition among all OO, EO, and RC Churches, and is splattered across the pages of our psalmody, not just in Saint Theodosius document. I'm also saddened that you would be so scandalised that she be in the kingdom of heaven, when the earthly ark of the Covenant was seen there by Saint John the Divine. I'm also surprise that it's so scandalous to people, given that the "two witnesses" in revelations clearly resurrect in front of all the masses, but nobody seems to be upset that this is happening before the general judgment.

Forgive me for saying this, I just read your posts as being very binding and authoritative, but with no real credible source backing it. I don't mean this as an attack at your person, it's just that 19 centuries of Church history would appear to disagree with you, so I would hope that you have a stronger foundation for your rejection of an age-old tradition.

[quote author=imikhail link=topic=69.msg158184#msg158184 date=1343437745]What I want to clarify, is that there is a difference between heaven as paradise, and heaven in the context of the kingdom of Heaven.

and heaven in the context of the sky, the atmosphere where the clouds are.

Traditions" however, are different. You cannot choose to reject the "Tradition" of the Trinity, for example, and count yourself Orthodox. The tradition of the Assumption of the Virgin, is just that, a tradition. It was never binding on the people, but is a beautiful one nonetheless.

In this case it is against Tradition.

The Curch never taught that St. Mary is in the Kingdom of heaven for such teaching is against the bible.

I'm not sure if you are aware, but this is a universally accepted tradition among all OO, EO, and RC Churches,

No it is not as I explained in my previous post. Neither the Synexarium nor the old manuscript of Tarteeb Albay3a ascribe to such teaching.

The Church never reads this alleged sermon by Pope Tawodosius for a reason.

and is splattered across the pages of our psalmody, not just in Saint Theodosius document.

Can you please show us these verses.

I'm also saddened that you would be so scandalised that she be in the kingdom of heaven, when the earthly ark of the Covenant was seen there by Saint John the Divine.

Was John in Paradise or was he in the Kingdom of heaven?

I'm also surprise that it's so scandalous to people, given that the "two witnesses" in revelations clearly resurrect in front of all the masses, but nobody seems to be upset that this is happening before the general judgment.

The problem is not in the resurrection. The problem is in the inheritance of the kingdom of God before the second coming.

Forgive me for saying this, I just read your posts as being very binding and authoritative, but with no real credible source backing it. I don't mean this as an attack at your person, it's just that 19 centuries of Church history would appear to disagree with you,

19 centuries of St. Mary inheriting the kingdom before the second coming? If so, can you please site some references from the first century stating this dogma?

[quote author=metouro link=topic=69.msg158245#msg158245 date=1343594617]This leads into a question about our prayers for the departed. We say in the Liturgy, "repose their souls in the paradise of joy, in the heavenly Jerusalem... in that place."

I don't exactly understand how our spirits enjoy the Heavenly Jerusalem when we are in a disembodied state. I thought that the heavenly Jerusalem could only be enjoyed after the resurrection.

Do our souls live in the Heavenly Jerusalem without bodies?

Heavenly Jerusalem in this part of the liturgy is paradise.

It is interesting that you mention this prayer as it comes directly after the commemoration of the saints including St. Mary.

I agree with imikhail, No one will go to Heaven or Hell until the Final Judgment

Paradise and Hades are both waiting places, However sometimes Paradise is seen as heaven because Christ is there and the Saints... and likewise Hades can be like Hell because you are surrounded by the evil.

Saints are allowed to take the form of Human in Spirit during apperations such as St. Mary @ Zeitun, Moses and Elijah during Transfiguration.

My understanding is that St. Mary is the Queen of Heaven, higher than the Cherubim and Seraphim. I don't know what that means metaphysically. I know she intercedes for us and her body was assumed into heaven (paradise?).

I have heard Coptic Priests state that the official teaching of the Church is that St. Mary has not been physically resurrected. I have had another priest tell me that it is not too much to believe if she is resurrected because heaven is not a museum to simply keep a dead body.

In any case, here is a statement by Abba Theodosius, the archbishop of Alexandria. This message he delivered concerning the assumption of the Lady of us all, the holy God-bearer Mary, on the sixteenth of the month Mesoure; beginning from the incarnation of Christ unto the death of this holy Virgin and her holy assumption. And be delivered this discourse in the last year wherein he was about to die....

If This is a true report by Abba Theodosius, then it means that St. Mary WAS resurrected. I don't know the official Church teaching on this message from Abba Theodosius. Of particular importance are the items in bold below:

[i] And Mary, the holy Virgin, when she heard these things, gave thanks to God. Again she said to us, Withdraw yourselves for a little while, my sons, that I may give thanks to the Lord, whom my soul loveth. And she opened her mouth, and spake this prayer, saying, I thank Thee, my Lord Jesus Christ, the first Word that came forth from the mouth of the Father, and came and dwelt in my womb the space of nine months. I praise Thee, the treasure-house of all good things, to whom I gave suck, even Thee who givest food to all flesh. I praise Thee, the Inheritor and unseen, who bearest the universe by the word of Thy power, and whom I bare in my hands. I praise Thee, the Life of the patriarchs, that dwelt with Abraham, strengthened Issac, and enlarged Israel. I praise Thee, the prophecy of the prophets. Thou didst come and fulfil them. I praise Thee, the calling of the judges, and their salvation in the battle. I praise thee, the crown of the righteous kings, who bringest forth their judgment aright. I praise Thee, the song of the angels, and the hymn of the archangels. I praise Thee, the trumpet of the Cherubim, and the speech of the Seraphim. I praise Thee, the patience of the martyrs, and the glory of their crown. I praise Thee, the espousals of the virgins, and the light of their lamps. I praise Thee, the proclamation of the apostles, and the preaching of their sweet savour. I praise Thee, at once my Lord and my Son. I beg and beseech Thy goodness, be to me a helper and forsake me not. Bring my soul out of this prison, that I may give thanks unto Thy name. Let the fire be still: let Thy mercy prevent me: let the darkness depart: let Thy light appear. Let the enemy who wisheth to reckon with me shut his mouth. Let those who wish the peace of Thy mother appear. Let the worm that doth not die fail quickly: let Thy living mercy comfort my soul. Yea, Lord, at once my God and my Son, look down upon me in this hour, fearful and full of trembling. Come unto me, Thou whom my soul loveth. Let Thy Holy Ghost guide me aright. Let me worship before Thee with boldness, that I may give thanks to Thee, O Lord my God, with a psaltery of Thy truth. For the glory is due to Thee and Thy good Father and the Holy Ghost unto the ages of the ages. Amen.

Now when she had finished this prayer, we also said the Amen. Behold there were thunderings and lightnings, and all the place was moved to its foundations. And there appeared in our midst the Lord Jesus, riding on a chariot of light, Moses being before Him and all the rest of the prophets, David the king and the righteous kings. And all the place became bright as fire, When we could not bear the fear, we fell down in the midst, and became as a dead man. But He, our Lord Jesus, called with His gentle voice, Hail, My virgin mother: hail, My holy apostles: hail, ye virgins assembled hither. And forthwith the fear left us, and we fell down and worshipped Him. And He said to His mother, I have heard thy supplication; and thy prayer has come in before Me unto My throne of My glory, at the right hand of My Father and of the Holy Ghost. Now, O My virgin mother, arise, let; us go hence. Wherefore wouldest thou dwell in the house of the sinners, when the tents of righteousness are prepared before thee? What reason hast thou, O My mother, for dwelling in those things which are to be dissolved after but a little while, when the eternal are awaiting thee? O My beautiful mother, arise, let us go hence. Wherefore shall I leave thee in the earthly Jerusalem, which killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her; whilst the heavenly Jerusalem longeth for us, the city of My Father and of the Holy Ghost? For thou art too good for it. Now, O My beloved mother, arise, let us go hence. My Father who liveth and the Holy Ghost who proceedeth from the Life, wait for thy coming unto Them; for thou didst carry Their unity, even My godhead by nature, which dwelt in thee. Now, O My beloved mother, arise, let us go hence, from the house of weeping into the city of gladness, from the land of the dead into the land of the living. Forthwith, O My beloved mother, arise, let us go hence.

Now as He was saying these things, we could not bear the grief which was about to come upon us; and we cried out, and wept bitterly, saying, O our Lord, if Thou wilt take her away from our midst, and we become desolate; receive us to Thyself before her, that we may not see our own destruction. And the virgins also were weeping and groaning. But she turned her face to us, and said to us, My sons, wherefore do you weep and grieve my spirit? Is it not written that all flesh must needs taste death? I also must needs return to the earth, as all the inhabitants of earth. But be of good cheer, He is with you always, and He will not leave you desolate; even as He said. Again she said to the virgins, My good daughters, keep the covenants that ye have made with your true Bridegroom Christ. And pour oil into your lamps: and when He ariseth to go forth, ye shall be found watching, and shall go in unto the marriage feast with Him. Then she said to our Saviour, O my beloved Son, I beseech Thee, be to all of them a comforter after my translation; for their heart is broken over the evils which their eyes saw, which the Jews did to Thee. Our eyes saw Thee, when Thy body was bathed with blood, at once by the piercing of the nails and the spear wound. We saw Thee also given gall to drink instead of water, and a crown of thorns put upon Thy head, and wounded by a spear for the salvation of us all. Unless Thou hadst risen and given them joy, surely they all had died. But I am with them for consolation until this day through Thy goodness.

Our Lord and our God answered and said to His mother, O my beautiful mother, when Adam transgressed My commandment, I passed upon him a sentence, saying, Adam, thou art earth and thou shalt return unto the earth again. For also I, the Life of all men, tasted death in the flesh which I took from thee, in the flesh of Adam, thy forefather. Yet since My godhead was one with it, therefore I raised it from the dead. I did not wish to suffer thee to taste death, but to translate thee up to the heavens as Enoch and Elias. But these also, even they must needs taste death at last. And if this happens to thee, wicked men will think concerning thee, that thou art a power which came down from heaven; and that this dispensation took place in appearance. I know the heart of all men, and understand their thoughts.

When our Saviour had said these things, He turned His face to us, even to me Peter and to John; and said to us, Be of good cheer, My friends and apostles. I will not suffer her to be long away from you, but she shall appear to you quickly. There are two hundred and six days from her death unto her holy assumption. I will bring her unto you arrayed in this body again, even as this body also, as ye see her now, whilst she is with you, And I will translate her up to the heavens to be with My Father and the Holy Ghost, that she may continue praying for you all. Now when He had said these things, again He said to us, Arise, go into the holy place; and ye shall find on the altar heavenly garments and perfumes of the heavens, which My good Father and the Holy Ghost. have sent Me for the honour of the body of My beloved mother. And when we had gone in, we brought them out to Him; and He said to us, Spread them on this bed. And when we had spread them, He said to His mother, Haste thee, O thou queen of all women, enter these; and rest thee from the grief and the trouble and the groaning. Enter thou into the joy and eternal gladness.

And she arose, and spread forth her hands, and said this prayer, Adonai, Eloi, Sabaoth, Messias, Rabba, Emmanuel receive me, my Son, in this very hour. Let the royal doors of Thy holy courts be opened before me, that I may enter in by them, and worship before Thee, my Master. For it is to Thee that the glory is due, and to Thy good Father and the Holy Ghost, giver of life and of one essence with Thee, for ever. Amen.

VI, Now when she had said these things, she lay down on the garments, and she turned her face to our Saviour, and straightway she commended her spirit into His hands. He said to me, even to me Peter and to John, Make haste, shroud the body of My mother before I go away from you. And we arose, and prepared her well for burial, even as He commended. And He, the Lord stretched out His hand eastwards, and brought us three flourishing branches of palm, and perfumes from the Paradise of delight. Again He turned His face, and brought three branches of olive from an olive tree, from which the dove brought to Noah, that he might know that the Lord had mercy on the world. When we had placed them on her holy body, He said to me, Peter, My bishop, bear her head on thy shoulder; for thou art the head of the Church after Me. John also, let him hear her feet on his shoulder; for I have sanctified him from the time that he was in the womb. Let the men go before, and the women go behind, as is fitting. Go in order and in calmness without weeping and crying out; for behold the powers of the heavens sing hymns before you. For also ye know the anger of the chief priests and the malice of all the murderous nation of the Jews against Me and My mother. But their counsel shall not stand. I will make them blind, that they may know the glory of My godhead, and glorify Me and My good Father and the Holy Ghost. Take up therefore the body of My holy mother. Place it moreover in the stone coffin. Shut it, and abide by it in prayers until the time appointed for her assumption. In two hundred and six days I will come with her blessed soul, and I will take her to the heavens in glory to be with My good Father and the Holy Ghost.

Now when He had said these things, Ha gave us his peace and went up to the heavens in glory, and gave her as a gift to His Father and the Holy Ghost, saying. O My good Father, receive from Me the soul of My blessed mother, who received Thine only begotten Son in the world. Receive from Me Thy holy temple, which was a dwelling place of Thy Holy Ghost, even the unity of the Godhead. Receive from Me, O My good Father, the bush which received the fire of the godhead and was not burnt. I offer the, O My Father, a royal gift to-day, even the soul of My virgin mother. I bring in unto Thee to-day, O My good Father, her who is better than the ark of old; for Thou didst save the whole world by My being in her, Thy coessential Son. Po-day is a day of joy to Me, O My Father, the Almighty; for My mother cometh to Thee, arrayed and adorned with good deeds. The angels rejoice with Me to-day, O My good Father, as they see Me rejoicing with My virgin mother, who cometh to them arrayed in heavenly garments. The archangels sing Our praise to-day, O My good Father, singing the befitting song, Glory to God in the highest, and peace at the coming unto us of the mother of our Lord. The Cherubim and the Serephim give their doxology of praise for this joy to-day, saying, Holy, holy, holy art Thou, Lord, Sabaoth: holy is Thy temple, Thy cherubic throne. Who shall see Me to-day rejoicing, O My good Father, and not rejoice with Me? For this is at once My temple and My throne,

Now when the good Son had said these things unto the good Father, straightway the soul of the Virgin also heard the gentled voice of the Holy Trinity, saying, Come unto Us, thou that art blessed of Us, inherit with Us the joy eternal, unspeakable. Then it also, even the soul of the Virgin, worshipped the Holy Trinity, saying, Better is a day in Thy courts than thousands. I had rather dwell in Thy courts, my Master. And again, Thy Holy Ghost hath brought me to this holy mountain. Therefore I will go in unto Thy holy place, and will worship at Thy temple, O Thou whom my soul loveth. When she had said these things, she was in joy unspeakable, in the place whence grief has fled away, being in the glory of the Trinity.

And we also, the apostles, bare her holy body; and we went forth with it, with those who were assembled unto us, in order and calmness, taking it to the field or Jehoshaphat. We came to an assembly of the Jews, assembled one with another. When they saw us going quietly and silently, they spake one with another, saying, What is this corpse, or who are these that bear it? For they go in such calmness. This is a new custom, which is not in Israel. And one of them, being a Galilean and knowing the apostles well, answered: the Holy Ghost came down upon him, and he said to them, This corpse that is borne, this is the body of Mary, the daughter of Joakim and Anna, who bare Messias, which is Christ. He it was who healed your sick, and gave light to your eyes, and raised your dead. We believe that as He raised your dead, He will raise His mother also, and will take her to the heavens with Him. And the Jews when they heard, said in confusion, What shall we do? Behold the error is among us still, as we see it in this fellow who speaks with us now. But let us make haste, and kindle a fire, and burn her body. Else, if we let this be buried in our borders, there will appear from it signs and wonders, and many will be assembled to it and believe on Him: and they will be numbered unto the Romans, and they will have dominion over our cities, and will humble our nation. Now when they had hastily said these things, they kindled a fire and torches, and went out behind them, to burn the holy body of the blessed Virgin. But the apostles, when they saw that which was come to pass, a fear of man took hold of them; and they put down the bier, and fled.

And the lawless Jews, when they approached the bier, a mist and a darkness came upon them; they became blind, and there was no one to lead them by the hand. The fire also which they prepared, to burn the body of the holy Virgin in it, smote many of them: even as the Holy Ghost said by the mouth of David the prophet in the eighty-first Psalm, They knew not, neither did they understand; they go in darkness. There come upon them coals of fire on the earth. Then they cried out, saying, woe to us, O our Master Christ; for we have sinned against heaven, and before Thee. Forgive us, for we are children of Abraham. If Thou givest us the light of our eyes, we will know the glory of Thy godhead, and we will believe on Thee and on Thy virgin mother; for she is our sister. Now when they said these things, Christ was moved with compassion for them, and set them free from their blindness and their error. Many of them were numbered unto us, and glorified the Holy Trinity. And we returned to Jerusalem, glorifying God for His good favours. And we went many times to the place wherein we left the bier, accomplishing songs and praises befitting God, until the day of her glorious assumption.

And it came to pass when the two hundred and six days were fulfilled, we all arose and went to the holy remains, on the evening of the fifteenth of Mesoure, which is on the morning of the sixteenth. We spent the whole night watching and continuing steadfastly in prayer. Now at the tenth hour of the night we heard thunderings and voices of shouting--a choir of angels coming down upon the tomb. Then also David the singer was striking his harp, saying, Arise, O Lord, unto Thy rest; Thou and the ark of Thy holy place. Straightway the whole place burned with fire. And the Lord appeared on the chariots of Cherubim, the soul of the Virgin seated in His bosom, wrapped in His divine robe. And we fell down through fear, and became as dead men. He raised us, and took away from us fear. And He said to us, Hail, My brethren and members and the virgins who are with you: arise and see the glory of mother.

Again He called over the coffin, saying, Arise from thy sleep, O thou holy body, which was to Me a temple: wear thy soul, which was to Me a true tent. Arise, O thou body, that dies according to its nature: wear thy deathless soul that thou mayest be altogether deathless, and that I may take thee to the land of the living. Arise, O thou body, which dissolves and becomes corrupt according to nature: wear thine incorruptible soul. Be altogether incorruptible .and indissoluble unto the ages of the ages. Arise. Why, sleepest thou yet in the earth? Array thyself with thy seal, and come to the heavens with Me, unto My good Father and the Holy Ghost; for They long for thee. Arise, O thou holy body, from which I built Me My flesh in a manner incomprehensible: wear thy soul which was to Me a dwelling place. Arise, O thou that art free: wear the freedom of all the world, through which I have redeemed all that I have made. Arise, O thou holy body: be joined to the blessed soul. Receive from Me Thy resurrection before the whole creation. The inhabitants of heaven will be amazed, when they see thee arrayed with thy soul, even with immortality. They will say one to another, Who is this that hath received his resurrection before the whole creation, arrayed and adorned thus? Peradventure this is the house of the Lord, this is the gate of heaven. O Let us sing praise to our God herein, for the Lord loveth it more than all the dwelling of Jacob; which is the choir of the saints. My Father Who liveth and the Holy Ghost will embrace thee and salute thee; for thou wast a dwelling place of Their unity by nature. The four living creatures with the six wings, full of eyes on all sides, which are chariots and thrones of the Trinity, will be amazed in that hour, as they see thee arrayed and adorned in the glory of My godhead. They will say, Whence is this body from the earth, wearing this soul before the time of the judgment; resting beneath this tent, this that is fearful and full of shuddering? We know not. As for ourselves we know that we are made by the Lord spirit and flame of fire. Behold we cover our faces with our wings for the glory of His godhead: we cannot look at all at the glory of His godhead. Behold this is a body from the earth, and it abides by Him that none can abide by, and approaches Him that none can approach unto. It is bright: and is adorned and is arrayed in the glory of the Trinity. Now arise and be joined to thy former unity, for I wait for thee, O thou that wast made a temple of Mine.

When the Lord had said these things over the coffin of stone, straightway it opened.: for it was shut even as the ark of Noah aforetime, which no one could open save God, who shut it aforetime. Forthwith the body of the honourable Virgin arose, and embraced its own soul, even as two brothers who are come from a strange country, and they were united one with another. Forthwith the singer David came into the midst in that hour, and struck his harp, saying, Mercy and truth are come forth to meet one another; righteousness and peace have saluted one another. Now when these things had come to pass, He went up to the heavens, blessing us and those who shall walk after His law, saying, Peace be unto you, My friends and members. Peace be unto the sepulchre, which was a dwelling place of the body of My mother. And I will set My blessing and My grace and My power there for ever; if they abide in the right faith, and glorify Me in an indivisible unity. Peace be unto those who shall accomplish always the memorial of My mother in mercy and judgment. She also, at once our Lady and our succourer, blessed us: and we saw them no more. But the voice of the powers that sang hymns before them was sounding in our ears, saying, Alleluia. Bring to the Lord glory and honour; bring to the Lord honour to His holy name. Alleluia. Bring to the Lord the sons of God, and sing glory in His holy temple. Alleluia. Then we understood that to-day there were brought unto the King virgins, even the soul and the body which were united. He said, Behind her there shall be brought in unto Him all her neighbours also, which are her holy deeds. And so we returned to Jerusalem, glorifying and thanking the Lord.

Behold these things we have said thus far, manifesting to you the gifts full of grace of this Holy Virgin, who is our glorying unto all the race of men. Now it befits us also, even all that have known her grace, to bring in unto her on this day fruits worthy of repentance, each according to his power.Is this message authentic and accepted by the Church?

Traditions" however, are different. You cannot choose to reject the "Tradition" of the Trinity, for example, and count yourself Orthodox. The tradition of the Assumption of the Virgin, is just that, a tradition. It was never binding on the people, but is a beautiful one nonetheless.

In this case it is against Tradition.

Would you like to expound that assertion? This is precisely what I was referring to, we ought to be cautious about making bold assertions without backing them up; no attack intended, but it behooves us as Christians to do so. If I do the same, please correct me.

The Curch never taught that St. Mary is in the Kingdom of heaven for such teaching is against the bible.

The Church never taught such things? Can you really assert this?

Modestus of Jerusalem writes:

Because she is the glorious Mother of Christ, our God and Saviour,who bestows life and immortality, she was raised to life by Him, toshare his bodily incorruptibility for all ages. He raised her from thegrave and took her to Himself in a way known only to Him.18She is received with rejoicing and unspeakable delight in the houseof God the Father, herself the house which God built for His Son ....She who was made the dwelling place of the consubstantial Trinityhas come to a better dwelling. ... she is glorified above the holy ranksof heaven and earth. .... She who had become the all glorious bridalchamber of the hypostatic union of the natures of Christ, the trueheavenly Bridegroom, has entered the bridal chamber of heaven. ...the immaculate spiritual room, from which the King of the ages cameforth in making His descent to us, has been translated to theJerusalem on high. ... She who is higher than the Cherubim and theSeraphim, being truly designated as the Mother of their Lord, hasnow come to live in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Allegedly (and you have decided he did not), Archbishop and Saint Theodosius also wrote concerning this and said the same. We will discuss that later, but you cannot say that "nobody" did simply because you do not agree with the teaching. If you are going to suggest the document is illegitimate, then you should substantiate such a thing.

Actually, a whole list of people who wrote about it from all over the world, whether in communion with us or not, can be found in a wonderful book called, “Ancient Traditions of the Virgin Mary’s Dormition and Assumption”, which is a scholarly wook put out by Oxford, and authored by Stephen Shoemaker. I feel from your style thus far that you are likely going to throw these out the window by saying that they’re not all from the church of Egypt, but I think that might be a little bit unwise or dishonest (academically speaking). The fact that every Church around the globe accepted it, suggests that it was seen as authentic, or we would not all be in agreement about it. I will not make the post way too long by writing everything found in the book, but I would suggest that you read the book and will also ask you a couple of honest questions:

1. If the writing from fifth century on all points to this, why would we assume that they were all wrong?2. What benefit would there be to any of them making it up?3. Why was it not rejected as heresy by the centuries of fathers that came after them, but only seems to be discovered by a few today, including yourself, that they must all have been wrong? As mentioned, this is universally accepted across the EO and OO Churches, as well as the RCC.

I'm not sure if you are aware, but this is a universally accepted tradition among all OO, EO, and RC Churches,

No it is not as I explained in my previous post. Neither the Synexarium nor the old manuscript of Tarteeb Albay3a ascribe to such teaching.

The Synaxarium has never been an authority in the COC for teachings. His Holiness Pope Shenouda had a committee that was meant to go through and remove many erroneous teachings/events that are in there. For example, have you noticed that Saint Dioscorus is killed off before the Council of Chalcedon even finishes? The Synaxarium is not used as a dogmatic reference at all.

1. Why is Tarteeb albaya3a considered an authority over the other fathers who taught it? 2. In what council or by which of the fathers was that document ratified as the expresson of our faith?

The Church never reads this alleged sermon by Pope Tawodosius for a reason.

1. Assuming that you are correct that it has never been read (which you haven't quite shown) -- how do you assert that it was for this reason it was never read? 2. You appear to acknowledge elsewhere in your posts that it was read because you assessed it (but I haven’t seen references) as definitely a fraud. Can you please elucidate what you mean by "never read"?3. I have never seen any ancient writers of the Church comment on it as a fraud, but I have seen ancient saints write accounts that all agree that it happened (not just Saint Theodosius’). This leads me to be more on the side of accepting their testimony over the testimony of a few, modern people (not even scholars). Do you agree with that rationale, and if not, please expound.

Quoteand is splattered across the pages of our psalmody, not just in Saint Theodosius document.

Can you please show us these verses.

Certainly.

The doxologies are part of the midnight praise, and as we say to her,

“Be our advocate, in the highest where you are, at the right hand of your beloved, asking Him on our behalf”

then:“The adornment of Mary in the highest heaven, at the right hand of her beloved, asking Him on our behalf”

then, in the Saturday Lobsh:

“The Holy Spirit,, Filled every part of your soul and your body, O Mary the Mother of God.

Therefore we also keep a feast, both spiritual nad prophetic, proclaiming with King David and saying:

Arise, O Lord into Thy rest, Thou and the Ark of Thine holy place’, Which is you, O Mary.”

I can go searching for more, but please explain to me what the Church means by this. I saw from looking one page ahead that you have decided on your authority that etchosi cannot mean the highest in this case. Incidentally, and I am not saying this to boast, I am halfway through my Masters in Coptic. The translation above was a rough translation of my own, and I have trouble seeing why you do not think it could possibly mean highest, so please let me know how you arrived at this conclusion. It has been used in Arabic for centuries as well.

In the meantime, I ask/contend the following:

1. If it’s not the highest, and it’s in some “high heaven”, why is she at the right hand over there? Is the Lord’s throne in this waiting place? If so, please show me where any church teaching has said so.2. If it is wrong, why is it repeated twice in doxologies that we have been saying for centuries at vespers and at tasbeha?3. I think the verse from the Lobsh is extremely and explicitly clear that the Church understood the reference of the Ark to be the Virgin, indeed, I can bring you other patristic texts to support that, but I think you would agree with it already. It says, though, that the Ark is the Virgin, and we are praying “Arise Lord” thou AND the ark, or in plain English, “You AND Saint Mary” into Your holy place. Is the Lord rising into the second heaven? Is that the natural thought of that verse? Or is not the holy place His very Kingdom?

QuoteI'm also saddened that you would be so scandalised that she be in the kingdom of heaven, when the earthly ark of the Covenant was seen there by Saint John the Divine.

Was John in Paradise or was he in the Kingdom of heaven?

I’m not sure if you are being facetious, but the vison of Saint John in Revelations is definitely of the Kingdom of Heaven. I would hope that the 144 000 and the 24 priests and the four Incorporeal Beasts are not also being thought to have to be waiting it out in the Second Heaven!

QuoteI'm also surprise that it's so scandalous to people, given that the "two witnesses" in revelations clearly resurrect in front of all the masses, but nobody seems to be upset that this is happening before the general judgment.

The problem is not in the resurrection. The problem is in the inheritance of the kingdom of God before the second coming.

You have not said why that is a problem that she inherit the Kingdom of God. If the Fathers were okay with it, why is it a problem to you or I? Why do you have to tell our Lord what He should with His own mother? I think it’s incredible and makes me honour her even more! This is the mother of my Creator who WHILE on earth the Cherubim overshadowed and praised, to whom the angels cried out with joy and love, who could possible be more worthy of such an amazing honour that what she was worthy of on earth she receives also next to my God?!!! It gives me goosebumps to see how greatly she is adored, and makes me feel the wonderment at her intercession and love for us!

QuoteForgive me for saying this, I just read your posts as being very binding and authoritative, but with no real credible source backing it. I don't mean this as an attack at your person, it's just that 19 centuries of Church history would appear to disagree with you,

19 centuries of St. Mary inheriting the kingdom before the second coming? If so, can you please site some references from the first century stating this dogma?

You are most correct, thank you for your fair statement. There is no written documentation of it in the first centuries. I would contend, however, that the fathers who eventually wrote it, received it from the fathers, especially given their unanimity, in the same way that I can accept other traditions that were put into writing later, but that were held by the Christians of the First Century.

Traditions" however, are different. You cannot choose to reject the "Tradition" of the Trinity, for example, and count yourself Orthodox. The tradition of the Assumption of the Virgin, is just that, a tradition. It was never binding on the people, but is a beautiful one nonetheless.

In this case it is against Tradition.

Would you like to expound that assertion? This is precisely what I was referring to, we ought to be cautious about making bold assertions without backing them up; no attack intended, but it behooves us as Christians to do so. If I do the same, please correct me.

Read my post #95

The Curch never taught that St. Mary is in the Kingdom of heaven for such teaching is against the bible.

The Church never taught such things? Can you really assert this?

Modestus of Jerusalem writes:

Because she is the glorious Mother of Christ, our God and Saviour,who bestows life and immortality, she was raised to life by Him, toshare his bodily incorruptibility for all ages. He raised her from thegrave and took her to Himself in a way known only to Him.18She is received with rejoicing and unspeakable delight in the houseof God the Father, herself the house which God built for His Son ....She who was made the dwelling place of the consubstantial Trinityhas come to a better dwelling. ... she is glorified above the holy ranksof heaven and earth. .... She who had become the all glorious bridalchamber of the hypostatic union of the natures of Christ, the trueheavenly Bridegroom, has entered the bridal chamber of heaven. ...the immaculate spiritual room, from which the King of the ages cameforth in making His descent to us, has been translated to theJerusalem on high. ... She who is higher than the Cherubim and theSeraphim, being truly designated as the Mother of their Lord, hasnow come to live in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Allegedly (and you have decided he did not), Archbishop and Saint Theodosius also wrote concerning this and said the same. We will discuss that later, but you cannot say that "nobody" did simply because you do not agree with the teaching. If you are going to suggest the document is illegitimate, then you should substantiate such a thing.

Actually, a whole list of people who wrote about it from all over the world, whether in communion with us or not, can be found in a wonderful book called, “Ancient Traditions of the Virgin Mary’s Dormition and Assumption”, which is a scholarly wook put out by Oxford, and authored by Stephen Shoemaker. I feel from your style thus far that you are likely going to throw these out the window by saying that they’re not all from the church of Egypt, but I think that might be a little bit unwise or dishonest (academically speaking). The fact that every Church around the globe accepted it, suggests that it was seen as authentic, or we would not all be in agreement about it. I will not make the post way too long by writing everything found in the book, but I would suggest that you read the book and will also ask you a couple of honest questions:

1. If the writing from fifth century on all points to this, why would we assume that they were all wrong?2. What benefit would there be to any of them making it up?3. Why was it not rejected as heresy by the centuries of fathers that came after them, but only seems to be discovered by a few today, including yourself, that they must all have been wrong? As mentioned, this is universally accepted across the EO and OO Churches, as well as the RCC.

Modestus of Jerusalem does not belong to our Church. He is Chalcedonian and his writings are not authoritative in our Church.

If you really want to prove that the Fathers agree on this dogma, you need to show how the Fathers addressed priot to the Schism (year 451).

I'm not sure if you are aware, but this is a universally accepted tradition among all OO, EO, and RC Churches,

No it is not as I explained in my previous post. Neither the Synexarium nor the old manuscript of Tarteeb Albay3a ascribe to such teaching.

The Synaxarium has never been an authority in the COC for teachings. His Holiness Pope Shenouda had a committee that was meant to go through and remove many erroneous teachings/events that are in there. For example, have you noticed that Saint Dioscorus is killed off before the Council of Chalcedon even finishes? The Synaxarium is not used as a dogmatic reference at all.

1. Why is Tarteeb albaya3a considered an authority over the other fathers who taught it? 2. In what council or by which of the fathers was that document ratified as the expresson of our faith?

Tarteeb Albya3 is what Khadmat Alashamas today. The Liturgical prayers have every authority in the Church.

If this forged sermon was really accepted, why has not been used? Why has not been accepted?

The Church never reads this alleged sermon by Pope Tawodosius for a reason.

1. Assuming that you are correct that it has never been read (which you haven't quite shown) -- how do you assert that it was for this reason it was never read?

Never read in a liturgical setting.

Quoteand is splattered across the pages of our psalmody, not just in Saint Theodosius document.

Can you please show us these verses.

Certainly.

The doxologies are part of the midnight praise, and as we say to her,

“Be our advocate, in the highest where you are, at the right hand of your beloved, asking Him on our behalf”

Which doxology is this?

then:“The adornment of Mary in the highest heaven, at the right hand of her beloved, asking Him on our behalf”

You seem you ignore previous posts because you bring up points already addressed. Read my previous post regarding the true translation of this phrase.

then, in the Saturday Lobsh:

“The Holy Spirit,, Filled every part of your soul and our body, O Mary the Mother of God.

Therefore we also keep a feast, both spiritual nad prophetic, proclaiming with King David and saying:

Arise, O Lord into Thy rest, Thou and the Ark of Thine holy place’, Which is you, O Mary.”

I am not sure how are these particular phrases confirm her resurrection and inheritance of the Kingdom. These phrases concern the purification of Mary to bear the Son through hypostatic union as a type of the Ark.

I can go searching for more, but please explain to me what the Church means by this. I saw from looking one page ahead that you have decided on your authority that etchosi cannot mean the highest in this case. Incidentally, and I am not saying this to boast, I am halfway through my Masters in Coptic. The translation above was a rough translation of my own, and I have trouble seeing why you do not think it could possibly mean highest, so please let me know how you arrived at this conclusion. It has been used in Arabic for centuries as well.

You are referring to a different word. The word I am referring to is etsabshoy.

In the meantime, I ask/contend the following:

1. If it’s not the highest, and it’s in some “high heaven”, why is she at the right hand over there? Is the Lord’s throne in this waiting place? If so, please show me where any church teaching has said so.

Are you limiting the throne of God to just one place?

Your heart should be the throne of God. Can't the Paradise serve as God's throne. Revelation teaches that the throne of the Lamb is in Paradise (Rev 7:14-17)

2. If it is wrong, why is it repeated twice in doxologies that we have been saying for centuries at vespers and at tasbeha?

Not sure which ones. The one for the vesper is translated wrong. The other one you presented I do not which doxology.

3. I think the verse from the Lobsh is extremely and explicitly clear that the Church understood the reference of the Ark to be the Virgin, indeed, I can bring you other patristic texts to support that, but I think you would agree with it already. It says, though, that the Ark is the Virgin, and we are praying “Arise Lord” thou AND the ark, or in plain English, “You AND Saint Mary” into Your holy place. Is the Lord rising into the second heaven? Is that the natural thought of that verse? Or is not the holy place is very Kingdom?

The Ark bore the commandments, God's word. Mary is that Ark because she bore the Word. Has nothing to do with her resurrection and inheritance of the Kingdom.

QuoteI'm also saddened that you would be so scandalised that she be in the kingdom of heaven, when the earthly ark of the Covenant was seen there by Saint John the Divine.

Was John in Paradise or was he in the Kingdom of heaven?

I’m not sure if you are being facetious, but the vison of Saint John in Revelations is definitely of the Kingdom of Heaven. I would hove that the 144 000 and the 24 priests and the four Incorporeal Beasts are not also being thought to have to be waiting it out in the Second Heaven!

Ok. so those who died and were crying for avenge were in the Kingdom as well? Rev 6:9-11

It is very clear from your response and from observing how you ignored almost every question that I have asked both in this post and in the last, that you have no interest in a real discussion. You respond to questions with the same assertions and without giving any form of substance to it other than what you have already "taught", saying things like "as I already explained", or you state things as explanations as though they should be accepted based on your own authority. You appear to zoom in on pieces and sections of posts and ignore things that beg a response, giving the impression to me that you are only selectively reading and replying. Forgive me if I am misunderstanding, but it really does seem to me that you have only regard for your own opinions and assertions, and thus having a discussion with you would only be an offense to myself and possibly to others. I sincerely pray that you have a different approach in your service (if you are a teacher).

May the Lord have mercy on both of us. I don't write this haughtily, I write it with a surprised and sincere sadness, but I will not participate in this monologue, nor can I bear to read what you write about my mother without being deeply hurt. At the end of the day your assertions are of little value next to the great fathers of the church, as are my own. I had hoped for good dialogue, but it seems like that is impossible.

For all those who have read this and been offended in any way, my most sincere apologies if I have been a source of this offense.

imikhail, if you believe that your assertions can dethrone the Queen of Glory from the right hand of her beloved Son, then may the her prayers be what save you.

I certainly do, and if you understood my post, you would understand that I did not dispute they're the same words, I was suggesting that you are not making a valid comparison. I would hope that you can understand and agree that the same word can be used differently in different contexts, as that happens frequently in both the Coptic and English languages. As mentioned, I am halfway through a Masters in Coptic, but apparently your knowledge is greater than that of those who teach me in the subject. I will not pursue this further with you since it is not really of any clear value to anyone, and definitely not to myself.

edit: i don't know why this posted after the other post that I did, but this was meant to come first, as I have no intention of continuing in this discussion.

It is very clear from your response and from your ignoring almost every questions that I had both in this post and in the last, that you have no interest in a real discussion.

Really?

So why did I answer every point you raised. Do you just want me to say Amen to your conclusions. If so then tell me not to respond.

You respond to questions with the same assertions and without giving any form of substance to it other than what you have already "taught", saying things like "as I already explained". You zoom in on pieces and sections and ignore things that beg a response, and it also seems that you selectively read.

You are the one who brought up the Fathers as teaching this dogma for 19 centuries and you cannot prove it. Instead you site an author from the 6th century, that this booklet by Father Athanasius uses, and want us to take it as authoritative.

We cannot use the Chalcedonians in forming the Church's dogma.

Forgive me if I am misunderstanding, but it seems clear to me that you have only regard for your own opinions and assertions, and thus having a discussion with you would only be an offense to myself and possibly to others. I sincerely pray that you have a different approach in your service (if you are a teacher).

These are not my assertions. This is the teaching of the Church.

The dogma of Mary's resurrection is a an extension of the heresy immaculate conception of the Latin Church.

Anba Bishoy already spoke against it.

May the Lord have mercy on both of us. I don't write this haughtily, I write it with a surprised sadness, but I will not participate in this monologue, nor can I bear to read what you write about my mother without being deeply hurt. At the end of the day your assertions are of little value next to the great fathers of the church, as are my own.

And which fathers are those? Modestus of Jerusalem, the Chalcedonian writer?

For all those who have read this and been offended in any way, my most sincere apologies if I have been a source of this offense.

imikhail, if you believe that your assertions can dethrone the Queen of Glory from the right hand of her beloved Son, then may the her prayers be what save you.

How in what I said dethroned her? Do not use words you do not understand.

I certainly do, and if you understood my post, you would understand that I did not dispute they're the same words, I was suggesting that you are not making a valid comparison. I would hope that you can understand and agree that the same word can be used differently in different contexts, as that happens frequently in both the Coptic and English languages. As mentioned, I am halfway through a Masters in Coptic, but apparently your knowledge is greater than that of those who teach me in the subject.