So how would you solve the boards don't hit back problem in training? Let your partner randomly feed a ball to your fh? Or have him try to block one of your shots?

Or would you stop the training here, and take the new, improved pivot to matches next?

Also, about the counterloop - is there any technique difference between your counter vs his opening off backspin, and the kind of loop v loop from farther back that I did yesterday?

The type of multiball I'm doing is only one step better than using a robot. It's a deliberate thing because I'm afraid of injury and I need to get through a couple of weeks to toughen up my body. I also want to be very specific with the techniques I'm trying to implement.

Clearly I need the trainer to randomize at some stage and to block some balls back. I'm think I need a couple more weeks just to find my feet.

In response to your question about counterspinning, there is a difference for sure. If you are far from the table (loop v loop), you don't want to fold. LTT95 is only relevant when you are close. If you are a very long way from the table, you'll probably need to turn up and forward to lift the ball. There is a lot less spin in a loop v loop situation than there is when someone loops slow and heavy off a push. The counterspin video I posted above is very specific to that exact situation.

As I said, I'm a long way off playing matches. I'm not going to be able to make that pivot at this stage. In training, I can make about 90%. I know where the ball is going and I know exactly how to use my body to whip my arm. I've had years to work some of this stuff out. But, as you know, there's a huge difference when your time is restricted.

I'm using the Table Tennis Edge app too. I don't want to be 5 seconds behind the play in matches, so it's worth my time.

Not for the sake of arguing, but some players are getting away with pushing/pulling of the elbow back and forth on the backhand. Or I misunderstand something? However, I do agree that keeping the elbow always in front is more optimal.

_________________"Bad technique doesn't work when you need it most"

Last edited by fastmover on 03 Dec 2018, 06:46, edited 1 time in total.

Clearly I need the trainer to randomize at some stage and to block some balls back. I'm think I need a couple more weeks just to find my feet.

How will you know or decide when it is time to add difficulty? This is a big problem for an uncoached player, how long to spend in each stage of working on a skill? And when to go on to the next skill?

Tactically, suppose I have spent ages developing a super slow spinny loop v backspin, and I run into someone who has perfected the counter you are working on, so he is smoking all my beautiful slow loops right by me. What should I do?

Try to make my loop even slower and spinnierTry to hit a more powerful, flatter loop v backspinAccept that I am outgunned in this matchOr something else?

_________________Table tennis, as we find it, is far too hard for us. It brings too much pain, too many disappointments, impossible tasks.

You've said that you've been playing a bunch of training games lately. This is probably key. Somewhere inside me, I believe that you should only play matches, unless you are specifically working on changing or cementing something. Doing drills with the same old shots is boring and you might as well be having fun playing matches whilst using your regular stuff. Matches are best for training anticipation too. You are probably seeing things pretty early after coming off months of just games.

Speaking about boredom: when I play lots of matches, especially against the same people, I get bored af. Unfortunately, I had to travel for like 4-8 hours to get to a tournament to compete with other players, and I often cannot afford that. I also know my game inside out, so I will mostly do the same things over and over: pivot against the serve or serve, then pivot. I may try other things, like using my BH more, win by lobbing or something else, but they usually don't work so it quickly becomes even less fun

The most exciting thing for me in TT is observing how your body and mind at some point become capable of doing things you thought were impossible. It is like conducting an experiment on yourself. That is why I enjoy training: maybe oneday it will all click together and I will play some superman shots

Tactically, suppose I have spent ages developing a super slow spinny loop v backspin, and I run into someone who has perfected the counter you are working on, so he is smoking all my beautiful slow loops right by me. What should I do?

Try to make my loop even slower and spinnierTry to hit a more powerful, flatter loop v backspinAccept that I am outgunned in this matchOr something else?

That is a million dollar question for me. Currently, when people are blocking/punching/counterlooping my spinny loops, I try get a popped-up ball and play faster forehand hooks super-wide. I wish I could play fades as well, but it is not consistent yet. I don't know if it makes any sense, I just like to play wide hooks, it is very satisfying.

_________________"Bad technique doesn't work when you need it most"

Last edited by fastmover on 03 Dec 2018, 07:42, edited 1 time in total.

Not for the sake of arguing, but some players are getting away with pushing/pulling of the elbow back and forth on the backhand. Or I misunderstand something? However, I do agree that keeping the elbow always in front is more optimal.

Clearly I need the trainer to randomize at some stage and to block some balls back. I'm think I need a couple more weeks just to find my feet.

How will you know or decide when it is time to add difficulty? This is a big problem for an uncoached player, how long to spend in each stage of working on a skill? And when to go on to the next skill?

Tactically, suppose I have spent ages developing a super slow spinny loop v backspin, and I run into someone who has perfected the counter you are working on, so he is smoking all my beautiful slow loops right by me. What should I do?

Try to make my loop even slower and spinnierTry to hit a more powerful, flatter loop v backspinAccept that I am outgunned in this matchOr something else?

Yeah, tough questions!

At the moment I'm still sore at the end of sessions and this means that my body is weak and susceptible to injury. It will take 2-3 weeks, I guess, before I pass a threshold. I have been doing general strength for months however there is sports specific type strength which can only be achieved though playing.

I'll add difficulty when I'm hitting the ball well on my backhand. My backhand was really bad before and I can't imagine that it got better through a decade of rest. Although my understanding has improve, I'm going to need some real time to coordinate the shot. I have missed enough backhands in my life to have a negative reaction when the ball comes to my backhand side. Also, I'm in no hurry because I'm just playing for "fun".

If someone is countering all of your slow forehand opens, kudos to them. Your solutions include:- Spinning your torso down and around more and causing more whip in your arm to increase spin- Looping to the backhand instead. Normally if someone is ultra strong at something, they are weak somewhere else- Making some harder balls, probably to the middle, with good foot and body work

The option I clearly hate is pushing to the guy and hoping he misses. There has been enough discussion about this type of thing. If someone is countering all of your loops he/she is presenting your with an opportunity to improve your game.

I think I found a creative solution to for my backhand. Another issue is that I don't twist my wrist back enough on the backswing. If you look at The Greatest Backhand of All Times, his racket at the back of the backswing is pointing at his stomach. If can do the same thing, it will physically prevent moving my elbow too close to my body.

When I played table tennis before, I couldn't really counter topspin so I just blocked everything on my forehand like some kind of return-board. It impacted me horribly at international level. It wasn't so bad with the 38mm ball however it would be a complete joke with a 40mm poly.

So now I'm trying to learn the shot. I'm using LTT95 knowledge, trying to combine rotation and fold. It is beyond sad that I didn't know this stuff when I actually played.

The results is below. The speed is coming from the torso rotation and I'm really not trying to hit the ball hard. My arm is just going with flow. I'm using T05 boosted on a Viscaria blade and the hall is hot, meaning my racket plays like a rocket.

Here's where it's going to get funny. I'm going to have the challenge of implementing this shot into match play in a couple of months. It's exactly the same challenge that you guys have. My plan is to start using it in matches against 2200 types where I can afford to miss a few. I'll also start visualizing match scenarios where I use the shot instead of my well cemented and useless block. My intention is to almost never block a ball with my forehand in a match.

I see Timo Boll at work here. You are using your body to move your arm so the shot is more reliable. I'm starting to think we're just garbage at moving our arms but when you use the body and move the arm with it, it becomes considerably easier.

I think I found a creative solution to for my backhand. Another issue is that I don't twist my wrist back enough on the backswing. If you look at The Greatest Backhand of All Times, his racket at the back of the backswing is pointing at his stomach. If can do the same thing, it will physically prevent moving my elbow too close to my body.

Agreed. I'm seeing much more power when I go back a little bit more. Lots of people can't physically do it without some practice. Some think I can twist my wrist all of the way around...

Again it seems like a shot that's pretty difficult to do close to the table against a faster ball.

If someone is countering all of your slow forehand opens, kudos to them. Your solutions include:- Spinning your torso down and around more and causing more whip in your arm to increase spin- Looping to the backhand instead. Normally if someone is ultra strong at something, they are weak somewhere else- Making some harder balls, probably to the middle, with good foot and body work

The option I clearly hate is pushing to the guy and hoping he misses. There has been enough discussion about this type of thing. If someone is countering all of your loops he/she is presenting your with an opportunity to improve your game.

My example was bad, but your priorities seem broadly applicable to most TT problems. I got from your post1. Make more spin2. Better placement (1 & 2 could be combined I guess)3. Go for a harder shot (and take more risk)

0. Giving up the first attack is not an option. Better to lose playing active shots.

The situation I need to apply this to is receiving short serves from stronger players. My SP flick is pretty reliable but it lacks quality. 2100+ players eat it up. My short push is a horror movie, high, short, slow, spinless.

So using your process from the example my priorities should be:1. Make spinnier flicks2. Flick to places outside his fh range3. Go for a riskier smash-flick4. Learn to push short competently to prevent him from attacking0. Pushing long and praying to make a block should not be an option.

_________________Table tennis, as we find it, is far too hard for us. It brings too much pain, too many disappointments, impossible tasks.

When I played table tennis before, I couldn't really counter topspin so I just blocked everything on my forehand like some kind of return-board. It impacted me horribly at international level. It wasn't so bad with the 38mm ball however it would be a complete joke with a 40mm poly.

So now I'm trying to learn the shot. I'm using LTT95 knowledge, trying to combine rotation and fold. It is beyond sad that I didn't know this stuff when I actually played.

The results is below. The speed is coming from the torso rotation and I'm really not trying to hit the ball hard. My arm is just going with flow. I'm using T05 boosted on a Viscaria blade and the hall is hot, meaning my racket plays like a rocket.

Here's where it's going to get funny. I'm going to have the challenge of implementing this shot into match play in a couple of months. It's exactly the same challenge that you guys have. My plan is to start using it in matches against 2200 types where I can afford to miss a few. I'll also start visualizing match scenarios where I use the shot instead of my well cemented and useless block. My intention is to almost never block a ball with my forehand in a match.

I see Timo Boll at work here. You are using your body to move your arm so the shot is more reliable. I'm starting to think we're just garbage at moving our arms but when you use the body and move the arm with it, it becomes considerably easier.

How much are you paying per lesson there btw?

Bingo! I'm shaping my body to make my arm do exactly what I need it to do. I'm putting momentum through my arm to keep it stable and steady, as per the bike example I gave re blocking. The shoulder joint will still act as a tiny hinge to create microscopic whip when I time the back/forward twist correctly. LTT97 roughly explains the concept of shaping your body to make the arm work. When you put enough momentum through your arm, everyone comments on how smooth and relaxed you look. It's not exactly accurate and trying to relax has zero to do with it. It's like telling this ride that it looks very relaxed https://youtu.be/JWGjUdGjZKk?t=114

Ben Taylor, the dude who produced the DTTS series, used to have a huge bicep on his right arm. The massive bicep was from playing forehand topspin. About 2 years ago, I taught him how to really play a forehand topspin and now his bicep is back to a normal size. He used to play his forehand by doing a bicep curl. It looked like a forehand, but looks can be deceiving.

In relation to the payment question, I told the coach that I have found him 2 potential students and asked him about his hourly rate. Of course he had no idea I was talking about myself. He told me the rate and then I told him I'm one of the students. He was horrified with the idea of taking money from me, but I convinced him that it would be real work and I needed him to take the money. Let's just say it's an solid boost for his income and life. I won't say the amount, but I pay about an average day's wage per hour.

If someone is countering all of your slow forehand opens, kudos to them. Your solutions include:- Spinning your torso down and around more and causing more whip in your arm to increase spin- Looping to the backhand instead. Normally if someone is ultra strong at something, they are weak somewhere else- Making some harder balls, probably to the middle, with good foot and body work

The option I clearly hate is pushing to the guy and hoping he misses. There has been enough discussion about this type of thing. If someone is countering all of your loops he/she is presenting your with an opportunity to improve your game.

My example was bad, but your priorities seem broadly applicable to most TT problems. I got from your post1. Make more spin2. Better placement (1 & 2 could be combined I guess)3. Go for a harder shot (and take more risk)

0. Giving up the first attack is not an option. Better to lose playing active shots.

The situation I need to apply this to is receiving short serves from stronger players. My SP flick is pretty reliable but it lacks quality. 2100+ players eat it up. My short push is a horror movie, high, short, slow, spinless.

So using your process from the example my priorities should be:1. Make spinnier flicks2. Flick to places outside his fh range3. Go for a riskier smash-flick4. Learn to push short competently to prevent him from attacking0. Pushing long and praying to make a block should not be an option.

In your pushing example, pushing long and making a proper block isn't as bad as in my example. In my example, you have a chance to make a loop. When you have a chance to make a loop, you've gotta make a loop.

Pushing long against a short ball and making a legitimate block is a half reasonable thing to do. It shouldn't be your entire game of course, but it's a real thing. I actually want to have it as an option in my own game, hence the training below. I don't want to be freaked out every time an opponent spins the ball. I'm hoping to make them sorry, but that will take a lot of the training below.

I've said before that I'd never give this advice to William at 10-10 in the 7th because it didn't fit in with the context of his game. It was a nice way of saying that he couldn't block. I also said that I wouldn't do it either because my percentage go up when I spin the first ball. No matter how good my block gets, I will always try to make the first attack. But there are always times where you get outplayed over the table and you don't get to make the first attack. Someone may have great serves or better short play capabilities. You need to be able to LTT103 block.

Btw, there are ways to move when you are chop or sidespin blocking too. Imo, there are correct ways to move your body on those shots. Just using your arm muscles is not the correct solution, imo.

You've said that you've been playing a bunch of training games lately. This is probably key. Somewhere inside me, I believe that you should only play matches, unless you are specifically working on changing or cementing something. Doing drills with the same old shots is boring and you might as well be having fun playing matches whilst using your regular stuff. Matches are best for training anticipation too. You are probably seeing things pretty early after coming off months of just games.

Speaking about boredom: when I play lots of matches, especially against the same people, I get bored af. Unfortunately, I had to travel for like 4-8 hours to get to a tournament to compete with other players, and I often cannot afford that. I also know my game inside out, so I will mostly do the same things over and over: pivot against the serve or serve, then pivot. I may try other things, like using my BH more, win by lobbing or something else, but they usually don't work so it quickly becomes even less fun

The most exciting thing for me in TT is observing how your body and mind at some point become capable of doing things you thought were impossible. It is like conducting an experiment on yourself. That is why I enjoy training: maybe oneday it will all click together and I will play some superman shots

Boredom from playing the same people is a universal TT problem. It happens absolutely everywhere.

I highly recommend just flying around the world and finding new people to play against.

Here's some footage from my training today. The trainer was pushing randomly and I was opening with topspin from either side. On the wider forehands, I was attempting to use the footwork from LTT76 and the body work from LTT93. For me, LTT76 footwork is often my best option because I don't want too many balls coming back into my backhand. I can get a lot more spin and power using LTT76.

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