When Did Guys Online Get So Douchey?

Alias (DO NOT USE A REAL NAME!!): Bumblyboo : Comment: Recently talking to a guy on OKC and asked him out for a beer after a rough day. He replied “only if you’re buying”. Are women giving into this douchebag attitude and reinforcing this kind of behavior? Wtf? Age: 27 City: New York State: New York

Well, first things first…are you sure he wasn’t kidding? I have a feeling he wasn’t, but it wouldn’t surprise me at all if someone on OKCupid was utterly socially tone deaf.

Sadly, yes, I think many women are giving in to this behavior in that they are engaging it far longer than they should. We briefly discussed this OkCupid scenario in last night’s post. A guy emailed the author and immediately honed in on her mole. Now, a seasoned online dater or, you know, grown non-attention seeking self-victimizing adult, would immediately know that the guy was trying to get a rise out of the author. Instead of blocking him right away, she continued to answer his ridiculous questions, no doubt rubbing her hands together thinking of all the head pats she was going to get when she posted the story.

I’m sure many of you have heard of Christina Topacio. Recently, her story of being fat shamed by a guy she met on Tinder went viral. The difference in the two stories is that, in Topacio’s case, she had been communicating with the guy for a short time and his comment about her body literally came out of nowhere. For those of you who don’t know the story, the guy felt compelled to tell Christina that, if she lost weight, she’d be so much prettier. So much, you guise. In Marci’s case, she saw the bullshit express train coming a mile away and refused to move out of the way because she enjoys being a human punching bag and writing about it for praise.

Getting into arguments with men like this and trying to put them in their place only encourages them to keep doing it. They want a reaction. By debating them, you’re giving them the attention they seek. That’s why you should just block and delete users like this.

These was sort of a long way to answer your question, Bumblyhoo. Have guys gotten more douchey? I don’t know. I think fuckwits like the one’s in all of these stories have always been there. Negging isn’t exactly new, nor is concern trolling women about their attractiveness. The reality is that a lot of men feel completely comfortable expressing their unsolicited opinions about our looks or body. Many men are still under the impression that we exist solely for their gaze. As such, they believe they have free reign when it comes to offering suggestions about how we could become more attractive. Because, see, that’s our main purpose on this earth. I think we’re hearing more about this sort of behavior now because of social media.

All of that said, I think a lot of men on dating sites are tired of being used for free stuff. You asked this guy for a drink, which means you should have expected to pay. While completely tactless, it sounds to me like the guy was trying to make his expectations clear. Additionally, I think it’s safe to assume this guy wasn’t terribly interested in you, which brings me to the dating leagues issue we often discuss here. If this guy was genuine in his interest for you, he wouldn’t have said that. He would have met up with you and offered to pay.

It’s possible that you misinterpreted his comment completely. This is why messaging should stay at a minimum and joking around should be reserved for in person meetings. Half the time, the attempts at humor fall flat.

I’m not sure what the right answer is here because I don’t have the full conversation. But regardless of what was said, somebody who would shoot a come back like that at a stranger probably isn’t great company anyway. Bullet dodged.

One on One Dating Profile Review

Get a 45 minute one on one review of your profile with me. I’ll go over your picture selection and ad text and let you know if your profile includes any buzz words or red flags. I’ll also help you tweak/write your profile if it needs some freshening up.

$55 – INCLUDES:

*Profile analysis (45 minute phone session.)

*Assistance with editing and re-writes.

*Photo selection and review.

*Feedback about specific issues and experiences.

*Site selections and Pros & Cons of the more popular dating sites.

*Overview of online dating basics – how to write intro messages, how to draw more attention to your profile, how to sort your searches so you can see profiles you might be missing.

33 Responses to “When Did Guys Online Get So Douchey?”

In my experience having a disagreement or an argument or a difference in point of view with a woman you just met is one of the most effective ways to get her interested in you.

But I’ve never intentionally started an argument or a disagreement with a woman I just met. These just happened spontaneously, and I noticed afterward that she perked up after the conflict.

My current, and most likely future spouse, when we met, disagreed with me when I said that the Beatles “Magical Mystery Tour” was unwatchable. She disagreed strongly, and that’s when the conversation got really animated.

A while ago I heard a woman at a bar dissing one of my friends, a first rate guitarist as being not that good. I strongly defended him to her, and her initial disdain turned to obvious interest.

I mean, you can always find alternate explanations, but doesn’t it make sense that a challenge, a smart ass response, a little push-back, is a lot sexier then go-along-to-get-along?

There are all these blogs and instagram accounts with the incredible things men say on OkC and Tinder especially…just super objectifying.

I do think there is a high degree of male rejection with online dating and also a sense of entitlement…no matter what we women complain about rejection, there are a lot of men who are sort of “undateable”to women (i.e. aren’t particularly good looking, successful, socially apt, educated or desirable in some way, esp. in large cities with a lot of educated, upwardly-mobile women) and get NO attention whatsoever online who are either angry or desperate and will see women as numbers and objects.

There are a lot of men who won’t “settle” for their physical league, they prefer the prettier and much younger cuter woman even if they are 5’4″, bald and overweight themselves. Online leads to the *illusion* of options when in reality most people just end up connecting with people they have something in common to begin with. After a while the new gets old really fast and you just want someone you can have a conversation and similar references with before he starts asking about your boobs. It’s like easy got too easy and people forgot how to connect.

That is why I think there has been a sort of decline with the online experience. People realize they are better off staying away from the random element when the scale tilts too far into the undesirability/unpleasant factor (i.e. you get more messages from men or women you aren’t interested in or have nothing in common with) and decide to go back to meeting people the old-fashioned way.

I’m a good looking guy on OKC and have no trouble getting a date. I’m not as interested in looks or youth as other guys because I’ve been single long enough and am looking to just meet a good woman who will treat me with the same love and respect I give her. I can tell you from personal experience it’s not that easy to find such a woman.

In fact, recently I went on a date with a woman who seemed nice online, but something was off and I canceled at the last minute via text. This isn’t something I make a habit of, but I’ve been taken for a ride before just so the woman could get free drinks and a meal out of me only to never been seen again. This woman persisted after I told her I didn’t feel right about meeting her and she wanted to know why. I remained vague, not wanting to get into it with her. She said she understood but was really disappointed. We texted awhile longer, the exchange turning to banter then to flirtation. She sent me a provocative pic of herself in a revealing shirt she said was a few months old. (This was a red flag I ignored for obvious reasons. I make no apologies for having a sex drive and wanting to use it.) Of course she had a nice body. One thing led to another and I began feeling better about meeting her. (Yes, the pic helped.)

So we met a few days later. When she showed up she was fat, at least 30 – 40 pounds heavier than the pic she’d sent. I should have left right then since she’d misrepresented herself, but I stayed and we had a glass of wine together. Only one glass. I wasn’t going to stay any longer than I felt I had to. When the check came she never even feigned reaching for her purse. I paid the bill and we left. Then she wanted me to take her to dinner. I told her I wasn’t hungry and never do dinner on a first date anyway. She hailed a cab and went home.

Now, I think everyone needs to understand that it’s not so much about the money (although if you date enough even drinks can add up quite a bit), but it’s the sense of entitlement and the feeling that you’re being taken advantage of that sticks in my craw. It doesn’t seem like a good way to start a relationship if you’re out on a date with someone who’s only looking to see what she can get out of you.

The guy who replied “only if you’re buying” was probably burned a number of times just like I and many other guys. That doesn’t excuse what he said, but maybe if there weren’t so many gold diggers and dinner whores out there trying to get a free meal from every guy they meet guys would be less douchey. She did ask him out though, and it’s my understanding that the person who does the asking generally should pay though most women prefer to use the double standard of the man always paying. So, even if he was right, how and when he addressed it wasn’t.

One woman I met invited me up to her apartment one night and we had sex. She had no food in her apartment, her voice mail box was usually full so I couldn’t leave a message, and when I wanted to leave the toothbrush I bought in the pharmacy downstairs she said to take it with me. I later found out that she was meeting men two to three times a day for meals, though I’d suspected as much from the aforementioned evidence.

I don’t give these examples to vent or show how bitter I am, though I’d be lying if I’m not a little bitter. I give them because there are two sides to every story. Of course, not all people are like this, but if more people entered each date or online encounter giving the person the benefit of the doubt and treating them with the respect everyone deserves until they prove that they don’t, maybe there’d be fewer bitter people out there.

I find it weird that women would care that much about “free meals.” How expensive is it to buy your own food? If I go on a date, I spend a lot more money on my hair, my nails, my clothes, my makeup than the cost of some food. I can buy my own food…. This just sounds weird to me.

I recently saw a video on Facebook where a test was set up: a woman with cute pics met a bunch of guys wearing a fat suit. All but one of the guys was kinda rude and left. The one guy that stayed (and was sweet and polite) got a date with the real skinny her.

All but one of the girls that met the guy in the fat suit were sweet and stayed – and they all even agreed to another date.

I have to question whether the ONLY reason these women are going out with you is for a free drink or meal. How would you know that? Could it be that many are initially interested, but when they meet you in person, they are not feeling the chemistry or aren’t sure? Some women will offer to pay under these circumstances, but some figure it’s just a drink and don’t offer. If you’re saying that these women are only in it for a free drink, I tend to doubt that. For most women, there really isn’t anything all that pleasant about having a drink with someone you don’t want to see again.

As for the woman you met who turned out to be heavy, were her online photos accurate? You didn’t feel right about meeting her, but you did anyway because she sent you a photo of herself looking hot. You could have trusted your gut, but you didn’t. Not saying it was okay for her to use an old photo, but the decision to go against your gut feeling about her was on you.

Exactly! I have never once in my life rubbed my hands together and thought “I need to find a man to go out with so I can get a chicken Parmesan tonight!” Get real. If I’m sitting across a table with you or playing a round of miniature golf with you, it’s because I’m interested in getting to know you… Not because OHMYGOODNESS FOOD!!! Like it’s really that difficult for me to obtain my own food. I’m not living in the Biblical era Middle East.

Also – if that woman was using him for “drinks or food,” who cares? Wasn’t he only out with her because she sent him a photo of her boobies? It sounds like he wants to “use his sex drive” on someone, so maybe she wanted to “use her hunger drive?” I doubt that’s all she wanted, but even if she did, if you’re only out with her because of a tit pic then who cares? You’re both using each other.

And yet you still got bamboozled, despite being omigod so good looking. If you had “no problem getting dates” you never would have bothered to meet this woman in the first place. Whenever someone says they have no trouble getting dates, they’re lying. Your whole story is a fucking fabrication to prove your whiny little point. Really? She gained 40 pounds? Those must have been some spectacularly old photo, Mr. Hot Shot. I would think you of all people would know how to spot a fake.

Why so hostile, Mox? If my story is a complete fabrication as you say I should write fiction for a living. Regarding the photo and 40 pounds–yes, I think they were very old, much older than a few months as she said. Also, I said I was good looking, no “omigod so good looking”. Like I said, I’m not all about finding good looking women, but that doesn’t mean I’ll date just anyone. Her other pics were not spectacular but okay, and she was wearing clothes that made it difficult to see what kind of body she had though she certainly didn’t look fat. Yes, I got bamboozled. I’m not infallible, and as I mentioned in my first post I felt better about meeting her after that text exchange. Maybe I was thinking with the wrong head at the time, but what guy hasn’t done that from time to time? You want to know what I really think? I think she got fat from all those free meals she was getting on those dates. She was shameless about asking about dinner afterward. Who does that? Dinner whores do. Who wouldn’t want a free meal at an expensive restaurant, especially if you’re barely able to pay your expensive Manhattan rent? Look, men and women both can get fat. Is it discrimination to call a spade a spade? Being fat is something that can be changed. If someone is sensitive about it they should go on a diet and get some exercise. Then maybe the fat lady can sing instead of whine.

Her other pics were not spectacular but okay, and she was wearing clothes that made it difficult to see what kind of body she had though she certainly didn’t look fat.

So then you admit you went out with her even though you knew she posted photos that hid her body? I mean, what kind of noob does that? Don’t we all know by now when someone is intentionally trying to hide their body in photos?

She was shameless about asking about dinner afterward. Who does that?

I don’t know, probably the same kind of people who go out with someone they don’t trust strictly to get laid aka desperate people? Guys with options don’t bother. You did. Ergo, you’re not as successful or good looking as you think. You’ve created a whole back story for these women when really, you’re just a slob who can’t get laid.

So in other words, you’re happy to pay for the date if the woman is attractive and holds the potential for sex, but you don’t appreciate it when someone is looking to “see what she can get out of you.”

This is why I refuse to let men pay for our first dates or make it a dinner date. Most of the time I ask men out and pick the place they STILL try to pay. I do not like being made to feel obligated.

It’s hard for me to sympathize with men who get “used” for dinner and drinks. Especially when he was so easily baited by the sexy pic. He still can’t see how he, himself, was hoping to get something out of her too.

again, like Marci you are contacting people who are treating you this way. you are probably shooting for women way out of your league while ignoring potentially kind women who may be a little bit “heavier” or not gorgeous. you sound like you are 100% obsessed with looks and NOTHING but looks and well friend, you are getting what you are putting out. You went out with a woman you got bad vibes from SOLELY because she sent you some slutty boob shot and then, GASP were so shocked that she wasn’t what she said she was. news flash, normal and good looking women have no need to sink to those depths to find a date. a normal woman would have said ok and moved on. You were blinded by the potential of dating an attractive woman you didn’t give a shit about anything else. You didn’t smell the desperation on her because you probably reek of it yourself.

while a few shit experiences are to be expect with anybody who is dating, I truly with all my heart believe if we are being faced with the same challenges and dilemmas every time we date, we are doing something to encourage it. You are getting burned out because you are choosing to date superficial and kinda crazy sounding women

WOW….someone touched a nerve, hence the thumbs down party. Great commentary. Unfortunately, telling the truth doesn’t always make you popular. That said, you’re correct. This guys douchey remark is a product of the environment. It’s unfortunate but also a reality.

Thoughts? So very many. First, in regards to the douchebaggery on OKCupid. I have no clue if it’s gotten worse, and I haven’t been on in over a year, but when I was on it? OMG.I think some people use online dating because they’re really busy, or work in a really sex-segregated industry, or are really shy. But some people use it because they have ZERO social skills and can’t get dates/laid otherwise.

I also think that because these interactions are online, it’s easy to forget we’re dealing with actual human beings. I really doubt that man would’ve told that woman TO HER FACE that she needed to lose weight.

Second, I’m not sure any of this is negging. I am pretty sure the point of negging is to “bring a woman down a notch” so that he has a shot with her. I think all these guys were insulting these women because they just did not give a shit about how they felt. Though perhaps with Christina that was the case.

Third. OKCupid is HARD. And as with all relationships, especially romantic, it’s pure luck.

Finally, “Many men are still under the impression that we exist solely for their gaze. As such, they believe they have free reign when it comes to offering suggestions about how we could become more attractive. ‘ THIS. Above all else, this. I recently had a conversation with my brother about how hi gf sometimes does her hair in a way he doesn’t like. I was a little annoyed about it, but I couldn’t pinpoint why Then my dad was telling me the same thing, and he said how he tells her how he likes her hair. I told him how I’m SURE she appreciates that, and my dad replied that she actually does.

The point was that I couldn’t figure out precisely why I found the whole concept so utterly repellent. And I think it’s your exact point – that a lot of guys truly seem to think that women need to look good for them. Obviously we all want to find our partners/potential partners attractive, but…I feel ike so many guys don’t understand how much effort women put into looking attractive for men. And I think that’s why I was a bit irritated with my brother – she does so much for him, omg. Or maybe it was that I felt like a woman doesn’t have to look good for a man every minute of every day.

“the point of negging is to “bring a woman down a notch” so that he has a shot with her.”

The best neg is used on a young, hot woman who’s far too snotty and self-impressed to approach. A man willing to dis her in a confident and non-resentful tone must be pretty hot himself, she thinks.

That’s the general idea.

“Many men are still under the impression that we exist solely for their gaze. As such, they believe they have free reign when it comes to offering suggestions about how we could become more attractive. ‘”

From an early age, many girls learn to tune their bodies, clothes, hair and skin to increase the interest of the male gaze. It becomes a competition amongst girls to be the most “gazable”, to get the most male attention.

Tell me again how men, young and old, force these girls to ignore developing other aspects of their own character, intelligence, and abilities just to be as distractingly attractive as possible?

The “male gaze” critique makes no sense in the context of dating. It totally makes sense in an economic context, ie it shouldn’t matter in an employment context whether you have a mole on your face or are otherwise pleasing to men’s eyes. But, being attractive to the opposite sex is inherent in, if not the whole essence of, forming romantic relationships with the opposite sex.

Your critique is really that you shouldn’t have to cowtow to the aesthetical whims of one particular guy but, honestly, adult women should already know this. Obviously, if you are engaging with some random stranger about your appearance, you are way too vested in that stranger’s opinion for some reason. That’s the problem here. Not that some people are jerks.

That’s because you buy into this notion that women lack agency over their decisions. At least in the context of romantic relationships, “jerks” have only as much power over you as you give them. With respect to Marci, she’s upset because the guy (whom she desired) found her unattractive on the basis of a physical trait that she is insecure about. By the way, her response completely buys into “male gaze” theory as she scrambles to cite examples of media personalities and celebrities who also have moles and who, therefore, must be attractive to men.

With respect to Marci, she’s upset because the guy (whom she desired) found her unattractive

Exactly. She did the whole, “I mean, he totally wasn’t my type, what with his great job and Ivy league education, but I figured I’d expand my horizons and throw him a bone” thing. Which, as we all know, is one big lie. Marci has shitty taste in men and routinely bats ridiculously out of her league, gets pumped and dumped with frequency, then whines about it on the internet. Nobody gets verbally smacked down with regularity the way Marci does. She in some way opens herself up to it time and again. And in every instance these douche rags always make sure to tell her how hot and gorgeous they think she is, and like the boob that she is, she believes them and brags on the internet. I can’t with her bullshit.

this is exactly what I think it is. in my years of online dating, I have gotten a few guys who are kinda rude online, mostly they are whiny and get annoyed if you don’t write them back. I haven’t ever gotten anything mean said to me about my looks. I am not saying this to “show off” its just a matter of fact. I live in NYC, am also a brunette and about the same size as Marci, so it isn’t because I am some skinny blonde.

Mostly my experience with guys online has not been anywhere near as bad as hers which I didn’t understand until this whole “she’s batting way out of her league” thing and now I get it. she is engaging guys who are way out of her league, probably looks wise and age wise and are 20something brooklyn hipster douches who are super cocky and full of themselves, who are used to having the pick of the litter, and who she knows simply would never date her in a million years. I honestly do not think that this comment came out of nowhere. not that it wasn’t a shitty thing to say to her, it was, but I think she wrote to him first. I really do. and I think that once he said that to her, she should have blocked and ignored him as well. Maybe told him to go fuck himself before blocking him but she engaged him and got what was coming to her. and what did she do? run to xojane for strangers to tell her how awesome and beautiful and cool she is. it is so tiring. its a crazy cycle with her. she learns NOTHING from these shitty experiences.

Marci ABSOLUTELY did something to get this guy to message her. In fact, I think in all of the cases where she claims these men randomly and out of the blue offer reasons they don’t want to date her, it’s because she’s done something to invite their radical honesty. It just happens too often to her for her not to be doing something.

That’s because you buy into this notion that women lack agency over their decisions.

Not at all. I absolutely agree that some random jerk only has as much impact as Marci — or anyone else, for that matter — allows them to have. A guy said you’re fat, or should have your mole removed, or should change XYZ about how you look? >shrug< Who cares? He's an asshole.

But the fact that you shouldn't let assholes shit on your happiness doesn't mean that they aren't still being assholes when they say stuff like that. Marci's story isn't really worth writing a post about, but the guy was being an asshole. It was her mistake to engage with him, though, and Moxie's likely right that she only does so because the guy's acting as a proxy for Marci's own insecurities. Otherwise, she'd just ignore him and move on.

I feel like people are A LOT bolder and say things they would never ever say to a persons face or even over the phone, online. its like screaming into a void, you can say whatever you want and there are no real repercussions for the things you say the way there would be in real life.

as far as Marci goes, I don’t even know. she engages these people for article fodder and positive reinforcement. that’s it. everybody has gotten their share of douche bags online, though Marci seems to attract more of these kinds of guys than most women, but she engages them which is exactly what they want. I don’t know if its because she consistently approaches douchey guys who are completely out of her league or what. these guys are bored, they are online and they are just playing games. they don’t see the women they say these things to as real people because they don’t have to deal with them in person. so they are free to say whatever they want. engaging them just gives them positive reinforcement to keep doing what they are doing. even in the case of Christina, the guy was overly excited that he had gotten to her the way he did, she later said he kept contacting her about her viral tweet and was “looking to get famous” engaging these people does nothing but make more of them do this. ignoring them is the only way to deal with them. Marci will never stop engaging guys like this because she lives off of this vicious cycle of getting her feelings hurt and going to the internet for compliments.

Is it that she runs into more douches than most, or that she only writes about negative experiences? I mean, the sample that the rest of the world sees may appear like she only dates assholes who treat her poorly, but then again, maybe that’s just all she writes about because that’s what the readers seem to respond to.

To be fair, when it comes to columns like that (see also, DaterX), it seems like the money is in the “hilariously awful” dates and other general tales of woe. I kinda doubt anyone’s that interested in reading “Had an awesome date last night! Everything’s coming up Milhouse!”

So, maybe Marci won’t get off this cycle not only because of whatever issues she’s dealing with, but also because she’s found a venue that actively rewards her for continuing the cycle, both in the form of affirmation, and in the form of cash for writing.

Obvious she writes about her bad experiences, not her ok or boring ones, but her experiences go above and beyond what most average daters deal with, that is the issue. I have been online dating for many years, only recently started seeing someone and stopped. I cannot say I have ever, not even once had these kinds of experiences that she has, in the volume that she has and I can’t say that my friends that also online date have either. Like i said before I am not very different than marci in the looks and location department so it seems very odd to me that she has so many of these really bad experiences.

and like i said before, i truly believe that if people are CONSISTENTLY dating or chasing people who treat them poorly then the problem really does lie within them.

I am not to trying to compare my experiences with everybody’s, if that is what it sounds like. I had a lot of issues dating as well, it brought me a lot of grief and heart ache and I decided that if I was consistently dating guys who faded after a date or 2, or that I was consistently talking to guys online who wouldn’t ask me out then maybe a little bit of self reflection was in order. Maybe broadening the guys that I was dating and listening to red flags and actually paying attention to “leagues” might help me, and it did. once I started to do more self reflection my dates got better. I realized that hey, maybe it wasn’t that all men were jerks but that I was putting something out or approaching unavailable guys. Marci seems to completely lack any self reflection. while writing about her shitty dates makes her money off of xojane (50 bucks a pop!) her “fans” and xojane readers would be over the moon to read about a good date of hers for once.

I don’t know; maybe I’m too easy going. I went back and re-read the referenced articles, particularly Marci’s, and the original OP’s question, and it just occurs to me that these women are entirely too sensitive and reading insults into perfectly innocuous comments. Guys pull the ‘You buying?’ thing on each other all the time when discussing an after work beer or whatever. In response, you say ‘Hell, no! I thought you were!’ or ‘Sure, but just the first round!’ and life goes on. As for Marci, the original ‘douchey’ comment was merely a question regarding whether or not her mole was ‘real’, a question she says she had received several times previously. It was she who decided to get antagonistic, based on absolutely nothing but her own sensitivity regarding the mole. No matter what he said, she kept escalating her responses until she got him to fight back. In my mind, it was Marci who was being douchey, then she turns around and bad mouths the guy for defending himself? If we’re going to date, we have to have thicker skin than these women appear to have. If we see every contact as a potential douchebag, s/he certainly will be!