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The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to BRushWithDeath For This Useful Post:

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

Maybe teams need to invest more in their backup QBs. I recall a certain team was forced to start its backups for the first six weeks a few years ago, and started 3-1 and then the suspension was reduced to four games on their way to the Super Bowl. I think its clear that I don't over-value the QB position. I'm not saying Batch, Leftwich and Dixon were going to lead that team to the SB, but they were good enough to help a SB-quality team get off to a 3-1 start.

(Now that QB wasn't injured, obviously. He's just an idiot.)

But still, the same is also true when teams are forced to play their backup RB, backup TE, backup LT, backup OLB, backup SS, backup CB, etc.

I still don't see why QB's should get different rules or treatment, especially when they have the ball in their hands. An opponent's bad management of the salary cap, and lack of quality backups, is not the defense's problem. The NFL season is an exercise in attrition and teams should be prepared for it.

Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
And life itself, rushing over me
Life itself, the wind in black elms,
Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

The Following User Says Thank You to Since86 For This Useful Post:

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

Maybe teams need to invest more in their backup QBS....

The irony of this of course is that no team relies more on their starting QB playing hurt than the Steelers and Ben Roethlisberger. Ben has played hurt all the time specificlaly because he and the Steelers don't want to put in Charlie Batch.

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

I don't get caught up flip-flopping. Doesn't matter who has a better week next week, I know what I'm looking at. Been saying it from day 1, Luck is the better player, always will be.

That is fine, but honestly I think it is so close that it will be hard to tell, until atleast after their 2nd or 3rd season, unless Griffin completely falls apart which I don't see happening, I like Luck more, but I am open and understanding to the positions people argue for Griffin as well.

Just wondering how many games of RG3 have you watched from start to finish this year?

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

No I haven't watched *every* RG3 game start to finish this year. I've watched him plenty, though. I'm curious if you've read anything I've posted on this subject over the past 8 months, lol.... I've stated *why* I prefer Luck on numerous occasions, gone into great detail... and it mostly has nothing to do with their play *this* year. If anything, Luck and RG3 are doing exactly what I thought they would do this year, based on my opinion of their abilities and past performances in college.I'm open to RG3's skillset, too, lol... it's not like I don't recognize that RG3 can be good. But that doesn't change my mind that he's anywhere close to Luck, lol... I've never regarded him in the same category.

I might remind folks that he was ranked as a draft prospect around 93 and a late- to mid- first rounder just before he won the Heisman. It wasn't until his combine results, which I *knew* would be the case, made everyone fall in love with him. Late, fast risers due to combine results almost always end up not doing what people expect. After his combine, he jumped about 4 rating points! The world also learned he was very affable and likable at the combine interviews, which also boosted people's perception of him. Hell, he's so cool, *I* want to hang out with the dude. But that doesn't equate to football skills on the field. You hafta beware of these types of scenarios, combine results rarely project anything meaningful, there's been some bad players who were combine rock stars. Luck was pegged at 99 for at least a season, and possibly even before that. I didn't follow his draft rating his sophomore year. Very... very few players ever hit that 99 rating.

I also think in the long run, RG3 won't be close. I've said in the past that I think Luck, Tannehill, and Russell Wilson all project to be better long-term QB prospects than RG3. I also had a feeling that the guy who would explode outta the gates would be RG3. He's by far the most over-hyped of the entire group. Hell, the 'Skins have a guy behind RG3 that I tend to keep an eye on. Not saying Cousins is better, but he shows me something, wouldn't be surprised if he finds a spot in this league and proves to be a very capable starter.

Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 11-08-2012 at 01:07 PM.

There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

Because I'm not sure if he's actually a rookie... he sure don't play like one!

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Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

No I haven't watched *every* RG3 game start to finish this year. I've watched him plenty, though. I'm curious if you've read anything I've posted on this subject over the past 8 months, lol.... I've stated *why* I prefer Luck on numerous occasions, gone into great detail... and it mostly has nothing to do with their play *this* year. If anything, Luck and RG3 are doing exactly what I thought they would do this year, based on my opinion of their abilities and past performances in college.I'm open to RG3's skillset, too, lol... it's not like I don't recognize that RG3 can be good. But that doesn't change my mind that he's anywhere close to Luck, lol... I've never regarded him in the same category.

I might remind folks that he was ranked as a draft prospect around 93 and a late- to mid- first rounder just before he won the Heisman. It wasn't until his combine results, which I *knew* would be the case, made everyone fall in love with him. Late, fast risers due to combine results almost always end up not doing what people expect. After his combine, he jumped about 4 rating points! The world also learned he was very affable and likable at the combine interviews, which also boosted people's perception of him. Hell, he's so cool, *I* want to hang out with the dude. But that doesn't equate to football skills on the field. You hafta beware of these types of scenarios, combine results rarely project anything meaningful, there's been some bad players who were combine rock stars. Luck was pegged at 99 for at least a season, and possibly even before that. I didn't follow his draft rating his sophomore year. Very... very few players ever hit that 99 rating.

I also think in the long run, RG3 won't be close. I've said in the past that I think Luck, Tannehill, and Russell Wilson all project to be better long-term QB prospects than RG3. I also had a feeling that the guy who would explode outta the gates would be RG3. He's by far the most over-hyped of the entire group. Hell, the 'Skins have a guy behind RG3 that I tend to keep an eye on. Not saying Cousins is better, but he shows me something, wouldn't be surprised if he finds a spot in this league and proves to be a very capable starter.

Was not attacking you, and I am just wondering because the small things QB's do are not always captured in highlight films, or statistics, also I did not say every game, I only asked how many have you watched from start to finish if it is none that is fine if it is 4 that is fine' but chances are that you have watched most if not all of Lucks so you get to see a lot more of him.

As far as Griffin is concerned check my post a little less than halfway down this page (http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthre...k-vs-RG3/page2), I go by my own interpretation of college players, your reasoning is focused on rankings and projections by analyst who are right sometimes but often wrong as well, not saying I am always right, but I watched Griffin since his freshman year in College, and felt during his Junior year that he had the talent to be a top 5 pick in the NFL draft, most analyst were late to the party because they are so worried about projecting someone extremely high and them looking like idiots if it doesn't happen, it was easy to project Luck as a 99, he had been hype since his first year of game action.

As far as reading what you have wrote, I had read some, and agreed with a lot, but I can not agree with the points you just made about Wilson and Tannehill projecting to be better, I think both will be good, but the thing is, Griffin knows how to buy time, has a quick release, is pretty accurate on deep balls and short passes, and makes smart decisions as well. The only thing that worries me about Griffin his his cockiness, he has confidence as well, but in sometimes I think he plays cocky as well and all though that is a good trait to have at times it can also prove to be counter productive. He will also have to learn how to stay healthy, especially since he opens himself up to hits when he takes off. Finally even though he has a gift as a runner he is a pocket QB, he trust his arm a ton and I don't think most knew that about him until they really started watching tape of him in college.

As I said before both have tons of talent, I am still in the Luck Camp, but I can see the case people make for RG3, and I think time will be the thing that tells all.

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

No I haven't watched *every* RG3 game start to finish this year. I've watched him plenty, though. I'm curious if you've read anything I've posted on this subject over the past 8 months, lol.... I've stated *why* I prefer Luck on numerous occasions, gone into great detail... and it mostly has nothing to do with their play *this* year. If anything, Luck and RG3 are doing exactly what I thought they would do this year, based on my opinion of their abilities and past performances in college.I'm open to RG3's skillset, too, lol... it's not like I don't recognize that RG3 can be good. But that doesn't change my mind that he's anywhere close to Luck, lol... I've never regarded him in the same category.

I might remind folks that he was ranked as a draft prospect around 93 and a late- to mid- first rounder just before he won the Heisman. It wasn't until his combine results, which I *knew* would be the case, made everyone fall in love with him. Late, fast risers due to combine results almost always end up not doing what people expect. After his combine, he jumped about 4 rating points! The world also learned he was very affable and likable at the combine interviews, which also boosted people's perception of him. Hell, he's so cool, *I* want to hang out with the dude. But that doesn't equate to football skills on the field. You hafta beware of these types of scenarios, combine results rarely project anything meaningful, there's been some bad players who were combine rock stars. Luck was pegged at 99 for at least a season, and possibly even before that. I didn't follow his draft rating his sophomore year. Very... very few players ever hit that 99 rating.

I also think in the long run, RG3 won't be close. I've said in the past that I think Luck, Tannehill, and Russell Wilson all project to be better long-term QB prospects than RG3. I also had a feeling that the guy who would explode outta the gates would be RG3. He's by far the most over-hyped of the entire group. Hell, the 'Skins have a guy behind RG3 that I tend to keep an eye on. Not saying Cousins is better, but he shows me something, wouldn't be surprised if he finds a spot in this league and proves to be a very capable starter.

Also I think I commented the 2nd most on that previous Thread next to you, go back to read my stuff if you would like.

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

RG3 throws 15 times in the game, Luck throws 50 times. The Redskins rely on their running game and not the passing. The Colts have faith in Luck because he's a good QB, soon to be great. Who's the better QB? LUCK

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

If you really think the Redskins did not rely on the passing game then thats all the proof i need that you didnt watch the game

The redskins had a great balance, but they still relied heavily on RG3 passing (and ability to make plays when the picket collapsed). Which is what makes him a good QB, soon to be great......1 perfect QB rating game, many more to cone....

of course, the very timely turnovers by the Iggles helped as well....a lot

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

NFL.com: RG3 hopes he, Luck become best comparison of all time (Video)

"Going into college, I was compared to Terrelle Pryor a lot and now coming into the pros, it's going to be me and Andrew luck. And like I tell everybody, I don't ever root against quarterbacks and I want him to have a great career as well. If they are going to continue to compare us, hopefully we are the best comparison of all time."

The Offensive Rookie of the Year race will come down to the wire, but RG3 said he wouldn't vote for himself.

"My vote would go to Alfred Morris, because I wouldn't vote for myself," he said. "I think that's extremely conceited and I'm not that person, so I'd vote for Alfred Morris. He's my running back, he's had a very quiet, but very great season for a running back and I'm proud to have him on this team."

Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

The arrival of Andrew Luck and Robert Griffin III into the National Football League could not have gone much more swimmingly. In fact, while expectations were high for the top two picks in the 2012 draft, it's arguable that they've both exceeded whatever lofty expectations they rode in on over the summer. Luck is leading a team that went 2-14 last season on an improbable playoff run in the AFC South, while RG3 has become the league's most exciting player and might even be the best player in the NFC East this year. Fans of the Colts and Redskins — and good football — have to be ecstatic at what their respective organizations are set up to do over the next 15 years.

Which one is the Offensive Rookie of the Year? Since they're about to spend the next 15 years being compared with each other to figure out which player from the Class of 2012 is the more dominant quarterback, there's no reason for that to start any later than now.

I think the best way to figure that out is to make a case for each player from the perspective of his campaign, see whose case makes more sense and is easier to argue, and put that player in the lead with five games to go. Since I've spent the week hearing from just about every Giants fan I know that they're terrified to play RG3 this Monday night, let's start with him.
The Case for RG3

1. The Numbers To an extent that I don't think people realize, Robert Griffin's numbers as a quarterback — of any vintage — are ridiculous. Compared to Luck statistically, Griffin looks like an entirely different player.

Those are truly staggering differences. Luck looks like your typical above-average rookie quarterback, a talented player prone to mental mistakes and forcing throws at the wrong times. His rookie year is not much different from that of the franchise quarterback he succeeded in Indianapolis; in 1998, Peyton Manning led the league in interceptions (28) in his up-and-down rookie campaign.

Griffin's performance is basically unprecedented for a rookie quarterback. Pro-football-reference.com uses index statistics that compare a player's performance to the league averages for a quarterback during the season(s) in questions to see how they performed in the context of their day; by those measures, Griffin has the second-best era-adjusted completion percentage for a rookie quarterback with 200 attempts or more, narrowly trailing Ben Roethlisberger. He's fourth in yards per attempt, with only Roethlisberger, Marc Bulger, and Mark Rypien ahead of him (and the latter two were playing after a year or more of sitting on the bench).

The only rookie quarterback since the merger to throw interceptions less frequently or have a better quarterback rating than Griffin, again adjusted for era, is Dan Marino. So, basically, RG3 is right up there with Marino and Roethlisberger as the most statistically impressive rookie quarterback in NFL history — and that doesn't even take into account his impact as a rusher.

Not bad, right?

2. He's Had No Receivers Despite Washington's best efforts to spend money this offseason and procure RG3 some weapons to throw to, their receiving corps has fallen apart this year. After shelling out big bucks for Pierre Garcon and seeing him catch that long touchdown pass from RG3 against the Saints in Week 1, Garcon's been injured virtually all season. Josh Morgan has been more notable for costing Washington their game against the Rams than for anything else, and Fred Davis tore his Achilles and is done for the year.

Washington's leading receivers are 33-year-old backup Santana Moss, 2011 third-rounder Leonard Hankerson, Morgan, and 2011 sixth-rounder Aldrick Robinson. Backup tight end Logan Paulsen has taken over for Davis. If Griffin were really struggling this year, we'd be looking at his receiving corps and saying that he didn't have anything to work with, just like we did with Blaine Gabbert in Jacksonville. Instead, he's been brilliant with these very same players.

3. He's Captured the Cultural Zeitgeist We would be naive to ignore that RG3 has become a phenomenon in a way that few young quarterbacks have, especially during their rookie seasons. Washington has a way of turning their star athletes (or their Nick Youngs) into larger-than-life figures, but Griffin would be a superstar in any market. Without a truly dominant team or a player running away with the MVP this year, Griffin's arguably become the biggest story in football. That shouldn't be enough for him to win the award on its own, but it absolutely means something in terms of his case.
The Case for Andrew Luck

1. He's the Big Winner Luck's statistics don't compare to Griffin's, but he's been part of a revolutionized organization that looks to be headed to the playoffs. After going 2-14 a year ago, the Colts are now 7-4 and almost surely on their way to a stunning wild-card berth. The Colts made other changes in their lineup and brought in a new coaching staff this offseason, but it's clear that the biggest difference between last year's team and this year's model is the gap between Curtis Painter and Andrew Luck. While Griffin's Redskins have as many wins now (five) as they did all of last season, they have just a one-in-five shot of making the playoffs.

2. Luck Has Won With Less While Griffin's receiving corps is a group of nobodies, Luck has virtually nothing to work with short of Reggie Wayne. Outside of Wayne, Luck's targets have been rookie third-rounders T.Y. Hilton and Dwayne Allen, along with Rams castoff Donnie Avery and injured second-rounder Coby Fleener. His running game has been virtually nonexistent; while Griffin has enjoyed the services of breakout star Alfred Morris on the ground, Luck has been saddled with the combination of Vick Ballard and Donald Brown. In fact, while Griffin has done far more cumulative work as a runner, Luck has been incredibly efficient in his scrambles. He has five rushing touchdowns, which is more than the rest of his team combined.

Furthermore, while their schedule masks the pain, Indianapolis's defense is truly bad. They're 22nd in points allowed, and the only teams they've been able to hold under 20 points are the Jaguars, Bills, Titans, and Browns. In terms of advanced metrics, the Indianapolis defense is last in the league in defensive DVOA, and they're not good at anything, since they're 31st against the pass and 32nd against the run. You can argue that there's certainly talent there, since Robert Mathis and Dwight Freeney are on the roster, but virtually every impact name on Indianapolis's defense has missed their fair share of time this season, and Luck has been forced to lead the team to victories without them.

3. He's the Leader Had he struggled, it would have been extremely easy to give Luck a writeoff for this 2012 season. Turning around a 2-14 team is hard enough, but once Colts head coach Chuck Pagano was forced to leave the team to undergo leukemia treatment, it would have been totally understandable if a young, talent-poor team treaded water or regressed in his absence. Instead, the team has rallied around their coach, and Luck has become the team's de facto leader in the process.

There's absolutely no reason to criticize Griffin for taking on several endorsement campaigns before and during his rookie season, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Luck left endorsement money on the table so he could shave his head in support of his coach. He's not just the face of the franchise; he's its unquestioned leader in a time of serious adversity, too.
And the Winner Is …

I certainly don't think that this is a finished race for Rookie of the Year, and I think there are extenuating circumstances that make the case less cut-and-dried on either side, but if the question is simply "Which of these two players has performed better this year?" I think the evidence pretty clearly points to Robert Griffin III. I'm not a slave to statistics when it comes to measuring an individual player's performance — the individual stats in football just aren't good enough to trust them that implicitly, whether they're old-school stats or advanced ones — but the difference between the two players in that table above is pretty stark. If there were plenty of soft factors pointing toward Luck that Griffin didn't have any reply to, I think it would be fair to call it a toss-up, but Griffin has spent the year throwing to backups and has the lowly Redskins in sight of .500, even if they fall short of the playoffs. I suspect that people who are more wowed with quarterback wins as a stat will see Luck earning a likely playoff appearance and punch him in as Rookie of the Year without giving the idea much further thought, but given each player's contributions to their team, a wild-card berth just isn't enough for me to ignore the chasm in performance between the two players. Barring a notable collapse from Griffin and a five-game stretch of brilliance from Luck, I think RG3 is going to be the deserving Offensive Rookie of the Year.