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Topic: Lost coin and wide road (Read 4162 times)

KJVLuk 15:8-9 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it? 9 And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.KJVLuk 15:4-6 4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? 5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.KJVLuk 15:11-32 And he said, A certain man had two sons:..... 32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.KJVMat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:622 avpo,llumi apollumi {ap-ol'-loo-mee} Meaning: 1) to destroy 1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin 1b) render useless 1c) to kill 1d) to declare that one must be put to death 1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell 1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed 2) to destroy 2a) to lose

684 avpw,leia apoleia {ap-o'-li-a} Meaning: 1) destroying, utter destruction 1a) of vessels 2) a perishing, ruin, destruction 2a) of money 2b) the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell Two verses with a different translation of the same word. The meaning of the word according to Strong's is also very similar.I would say the meaning should be exactly the same.

The coin parable is clear. The coin was lost. Obiviously it was not destroyed otherwise the women couldn't have found it. The coin wasn't even damaged because that would have made it useless and the woman won't have rejoced of something of no value.Would the shepard be happy if his sheep was destroyed (eaten by wolves)?How can a destroyed prodical son return?

Considering that doesn't Mat 7:13 simply teach that many will get lost because it's very easy to get lost?

Lost prodical son. Lost coin. Lost sheep. And... lost peopleThe first 3 are found within a few verses. Why should we then assume those in Matthew are suffering forever?

« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 09:56:47 AM by WhiteWings »

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Coin.=> The coin has no will to get lost or get found.=> The coin isn't even aware it's lost.=> No action of the coin is required. The coin is found (dragged) by the lady=> Reason for celebration.

Sheep.=> It's always the shepherd that's blamed when a sheep is lost.=> It's the shepherd that starts to seek the sheep. No the other way around.=> The shepherd doesn't punish the sheep. No he even carries (drags) the sheep to the flock.

Prodical son:=> The son did rebel and did things agains his father's advise and will.=> He experience a rough time and figured the ways of his father are not that bad afterall.=> He returns and it's party time.

Toughts:=> The wide road parable can't be explained in such a simplistic way but it can't contradict the other 3.=> Coin and sheep are actively searched for. Elect?=> What if the son would have died before got home? ==> No chances after death according to ET and ED.===> The father actually states his son was dead and came back alive...

Unware, helpless or rebelion... all eventually are welcomed with great joy.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Two verses with a different translation of the same word ... Why should we then assume those in Matthew are suffering forever?

In the spirit of iron sharpening iron ... or to play devil's advocate if you prefer ...

I need an advocate for my upcoming Supreme Court appointment...

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Consider this thread. The same word in the same quote by Jesus, meant to contrast one another, is translated differently by US believers.

Just provoking my brother to ponderance as you provoke me to do the same!

Steve is to smart to be funny Ahum, Steve! Are you a lawyer?

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Sheep.=> It's always the shepherd that's blamed when a sheep is lost.=> It's the shepherd that starts to seek the sheep. No the other way around.=> The shepherd doesn't punish the sheep. No he even carries (drags) the sheep to the flock.

Just thought I'd be a bother or perhaps even a brother and say that Jesus said "my sheep hear my voice and follow me"

In combination with "Behold I knock on the door, if any man will I will sup with him"

Then we can see that first God seeks us, then we respond to that calling.

Sheep are nervous animals that run away for about everything. Except a voice they know.They will follow again when they hear the voice. => Religion=Re-Connect

"Then we can see that first God seeks us, then we respond to that calling."That's a much better view than teh view that only the 5% elect sheep are searched for.Imagine a shepherd that after a few hours searching found his sheep.He calls from a distance and all he gets is usual dumb sheep stare. (knocks on the door)Then the sheperd just returns to his flock without that sheep?A human shepherd doesn't give up that easlily.What about a devine Shepherd....?

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

The coin parable is clear. The coin was lost. Obiviously it was not destroyed otherwise the women could have found it. The coin wasn't even damaged because that would have made it useless and the woman won't have rejoced of something of no value.Would the shepard be happy if his sheep was destroyed (eaten by wolves)?How can a destroyed son return?

Considering that doesn't Mat 7:13 simply teach that many will get lost because it's very easy to get lost?

Lost prodical son. Lost coin. Lost sheep. And... lost peopleThe first 3 are found within a few verses. Why should we then assume those in Matthew are suffering forever

I always took the coin passage to be speaking about Christ's desire to have all become believers, repent and turn from sin. I always felt it spoke of his deep love and his deep desire to for all to be saved. I'm not sure it indicates that all are indeed saved. But, this passage I will certainly pray on. I feel there is something for me here. It does shed light on his love for us. ET guys/gals would want us to believe that Jesus who loves us this deeply would then torture these same lost sheep for eternity in fire? That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

I always took the coin passage to be speaking about Christ's desire to have all become believers, repent and turn from sin.

That's the strongest part of the coin parable. Coins have no brains, desires, and will. There was a zero possibility the coin would repent and come to the truth -> crawl back in her wallet.So for me that simply refutes the idea that we (coins) can only be saved if we actively search salvation (wallet).

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Weird, considering old songs come from ET times...I guess for ETs the song means 1 sheep was saved and the ones in the fold were eaten by wolves.

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

After reading the first parable explanation I had a light bulb moment. I think it's possible that I have made some faulty assumptions about the Bible. If parables were spoken so that seeing they may not see...hearing yet not hear then was the Bible written so they could be reading yet not read?

I also read this verse differently for the first time in my life.

ROMANS 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 for this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins."

How could all of Israel be saved considering the great majority never believed in Jesus as the Messiah? I also further extrapolated a concept for the first time. God had hardened the hearts of Israel in order that he may show them mercy. Has he also hardened the hearts of the nonbeliever so that he may also show them mercy?Lots to ponder.

Or maybe it means only 100 sheep will be saved. No, he means the whole fold will be saved by the Shepherd.

The shepherd who saved his whole fold was just a poor shepherd with 100 sheep.However there is a Shepherd who got all sheep given in His hands from a Farmer who owns of billions of sheep.

WWJoh 3:35 5 The Farmer loveth the Shepherd, and hath given all sheep into his hand.

Signed,A goat.

« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 02:59:01 PM by WhiteWings »

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

After reading the first parable explanation I had a light bulb moment.

Yeah, sometimes I discover something so obvious that I'm almost ashamed I didn't see it long ago...

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I think it's possible that I have made some faulty assumptions about the Bible. If parables were spoken so that seeing they may not see...hearing yet not hear then was the Bible written so they could be reading yet not read?

You edited your message; I think there was a bit more in this paragraph. Anyway I have no clue why things are hidden. But not as a trick so 95% of humanity can be judged to hell. Because:KJV1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

If God really wants the above the permanent hardening, deafing and blinding is very counter productive...(Unless all=some which I don't believe)

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How could all of Israel be saved considering the great majority never believed in Jesus as the Messiah? I also further extrapolated a concept for the first time. God had hardened the hearts of Israel in order that he may show them mercy. Has he also hardened the hearts of the nonbeliever so that he may also show them mercy?Lots to ponder.

He hardened, made deaf and made blind....In another thread there was a discussion about God hardening pharao's heart. TheoBook has a view that God didn't harden pharao's heart but pharao's hated God/Jews so much his heart turned to stone. Dunno if I relly agree but it certainly is view to be considered and can possibly applied to deaf/blind?

IMO it also has to do with the Elect. I believe that there is an elect in the Bible (those not blind, deaf, hardened).But that elect is not about eternity is heaven or hell

« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 04:58:46 PM by WhiteWings »

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

After reading the first parable explanation I had a light bulb moment.

Yeah, sometimes I discover something so obvious that I'm almost ashamed I didn't see is long ago...

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I think it's possible that I have made some faulty assumptions about the Bible. If parables were spoken so that seeing they may not see...hearing yet not hear then was the Bible written so they could be reading yet not read?

You edited your message; I think there was a bit more in this paragraph. Anyway I have no clue why things are hidden. But not as a trick so 95% of humanity can be judged to hell. Because:KJV1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

If God really wants the above the permanent hardening, deafing and blinding is very counter productive...(Unless all=some which I don't believe)

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How could all of Israel be saved considering the great majority never believed in Jesus as the Messiah? I also further extrapolated a concept for the first time. God had hardened the hearts of Israel in order that he may show them mercy. Has he also hardened the hearts of the nonbeliever so that he may also show them mercy?Lots to ponder.

He hardened, made deaf and made blind....In another thread there was a discussion about God hardening pharao's heart. TheoBook has a view that God didn't harden pharao's heart but pharao's hated God/Jews so much his heart turned to stone. Dunno if I relly agree but it certainly is view to be considered and can possibly applied to deaf/blind?

IMO it also has to do with the Elect. I believe that there is an elect in the Bible (those not blind, deaf, hardened).But that elect is not about eternity is heaven or hell

You hit the nail on the head about how I felt when I read that passage. I was embarassed that it was right there all along and I hadn't seen it. And yes, there was some additional portion to that post which God then answered for me shortly after I wrote it.

What if the Jews had all accepted Jesus as the Messiah? It's like God took the football away from the Jews and tossed it to the Gentiles. But, what if he hadn't? How would things be different?

God started this with the Gentile, Abram, with whom he made the covenant--

You will be the father of many nations.

--Gen 17:4

"nations"

H1471גּי גּויgôy gôygo'ee, go'-eeApparently from the same root as H1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts: - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

And He concluded it with Jesus.

Galatians 3:28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!

36For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.--Rom 11

When it comes to the sheep and the coin parable I don't think Christ had all the world in mind.

But only thought about his sheep. Here's why

One. He said to the Pharisses you are not of my sheep.

KJVJoh 10:16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

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Two. In Mathew he seperates the sheep from the goats.

But what's wrong with goats? I often see goats pictured as evil (satan as half goat for example). But goats are used for sacrifice just as sheep. So they can't be that bad...KJVLev 3:12 And if his offering be a goat, then he shall offer it before the LORD.

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Three he calls some teachers sheep in wolves clothing.

I have no answer for that. Maybe more seasoned member can answer that one...

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So using these parables to teach universal salvation is unfruitful.

I disagree. (see John 10:16)

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For there is also the parable of the wheat and the tare.

Everybody is wheat and tare. Wheat=tar+kernel/seeds.Just like gold ore is pure gold + dross (refiners fire)So I think the wheat and tare parable isn't about 2 groups of people but about 2 parts of 1 person.

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So there is a distinction between goodies and baddies. The baddies don't follow Christ but the sheep the goodies do.

Jesus disagrees. John 10:16.... 1 fold, 1 shepherd

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Also Jesus did not say, you are goat and will allways be a goat, he simply said, those who recognize his voice are his sheep and if any man will, follow me

John 10:16...again The sheep of the evil fold only hear recognize/follow the voice of the evil sheperd. But still Jesus claims those (formerly) evil sheep will join His fold.

So yes, I think all parable teach UR. (whole Bible does)Just speaking for myself here: For me UR isn't about that everyone instantly is added to the fold of holy sheep. Bad things will happen to evil sheep. UR for me is that eventually, somehow, the evil sheep turn holy and join the holy flock.

You might answer: Ok all sheep are saved. But what about wolves?I think there are 2 sheperds on earth. Jesus and Satan (for simplicity let's agree they are both persons)So there are also 2 flocks. So Jesus basicly steals everything from the other flock.Futher I think there are only sheep. The wolves are just a name for bad sheep. KJVJoh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.I understand that as whole creation. Not just sheep who are just a fraction of creation.

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Thinktank, I consider your answers, questions, and rebutals somewhat challenging, should I desire to be in circle of minds of those discussing the things of the world and how they came about. The Bible has substance and that substance is faith, faith built on the Spirit and should one lack the faith of the Spirit then maybe man did walk out of the sea and start a game of pinochle.

Not to offend, but God is Love.

Peace and Love Through Jesus

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Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

LS

How could all of Israel be saved considering the great majority never believed in Jesus as the Messiah? I also further extrapolated a concept for the first time. God had hardened the hearts of Israel in order that he may show them mercy. Has he also hardened the hearts of the nonbeliever so that he may also show them mercy?Lots to ponder.

Hi Shawn - I believe that "Israel" is (and always has been) believers. So all Israel will be saved - ie: all believers will be saved.Romans 96 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "Through Isaac your descendants will be named." 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Galatians 36 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Galatians 329 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

The word for "lost," as in "lost coin," does get translated elsewhere as "destroyed." Jesus came to seek and save what was destroyed.

Of those three parables, the first is about the father (that lost a son,) the last about the Son (the good and great shepherd.) The middle parable is about the womanruah, pneuma (who seeks a ruined coin.)This is the family in the heavens.

"God has locked all together in stubbornness that He might be being merciful to all." (Romans 11:32; derived from CLT)

"And they shall be...one Shepherd!" Those in His image and likeness will have dominion.

Revelation (Unveiling) 5:9-10; Concordant Literal Translation...9 And they are singing a new song, saying, "Worthy art Thou to be taking the scroll and to open its seals, For Thou wast slain and dost buy us for God by Thy blood. Out of every tribe and language and people and nation.10 Thou dost also make them a kingdom and a priesthood for our God, And they shall be reigning on the earth."

« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 08:39:46 AM by reFORMer »

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I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Why not? I'm wondering why you picked the most insignificant part of the whole thread and only answer that

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...