ZvT 3 Hatch Lurker 2018 by the book examples

Does anyone have VODs or replays of Koreans where you can learn the recent meta timings of that build? Like a perfect example of the build itself without too many adjustments for some early game aggression. Feels like liquipedia page is outdated. Thanks!

I don't think there is a 'perfect' example of the build, since there are different styles to it as well as different variations of how the terran can play. (The proof that there is no 'perfect' variation of the 3hatch muta build is the fact of how hard it is to find 2 games where a pro zerg does exact same build order.)

For example, some zergs want to take an earlier 3rd base, while others prioritize getting earlier hive tech, or faster lurkers. There's smaller things too, like getting doing 12hatch->13pool, instead of 12hatch->11pool, which I'm guessing would have an impact on how early they can afford their 3rd base. I always go 12hatch->11pool, so I'm not entirely sure.

Not to mention, if the terran gets 2 barracks -> academy (instead of 1rax-> engineering bay) you will have to get 3 sunkens to defend the push which will probably delay the timing of your 3rd base.

Even against the old-school 3tank->1vessel push, there's variations on how you can play against it. Generally, Zerg players prioritize hive timing above all else against that (aka, getting a fast queen's next). Against 5rax builds, there's even more variations of how you can play against it.

Some zergs delay their lurker timing and build a bunch of muta/ling to defend terran aggression, some zergs rush lurkers as fast as they can once they've started to build their mutalisks to try and get 3 lurkers on a cliff to defend their 3rd base, and there's other styles too.

tl/dr: There's no perfect & standard 3hatch mutalisk build.

If you're a beginner, I would say once you started your 11 mutalisks against a terran going for a tank/vessel push, just:

1) Pump drones & take your 3rd base. He's not leaving his base any time soon.2) Start queens nest. Need a fast hive against that push unless you're just going to build a ridiculous amount of lurkers.

If he's going 5rax:

1) Get Hydra Den fast. Start Lurker Aspect and 3 Hydralisks, so you have time to walk them to your 3rd base and get them above a cliff/choke before Lurker Aspect finishes.2) Get your 3rd base as fast you can (It will probably take a while to afford if he went 2rax->academy instead of 1rax->e-bay)3) Hive when you can. Generally don't need Hive super fast against 5rax build. His tech will be delayed as well.

But the thing about 5rax, there's a bunch of variations to playing against it. Like rather than getting lurkers asap to defend your 3rd, you could keep making mutalisks, and try to defend it with them instead.This is just how I play against it. If you're not a beginner then probably don't bother with my advice.

As for what the liquipedia page says -- it's not really outdated. That part of 3hatch muta (the early build order), hasn't really changed at all. It's the part of the game that comes after the build order listed where the 'meta' changed and also where players have their own variants.

The only part I didn't particularly agree with is it said to build '2 sunkens as needed' I would say you should get 3 sunkens, and you do this when the terran builds another barracks and an academy after taking their natural instead of going e-bay. Also it says to get an evolution chamber once you've started your Hydralisk den, and to get a fast +1 carapace.. I mean, you can do that if you want -- I prefer to get a queens nest at that time instead though, and then I can get a faster Hive, but again, there's no perfect way. You're going to have to make some sacrifices no matter what.

EDIT: Lol, Just realized you wanted a 3hatch lurker build, not a 3hatch muta build.Whoops.

I watched what eonzerg posted, thought he was just trolling... then I saw the title of the thread. =(

Off by one or two supply does not a variation make. Certain maps just have different gas spawns and attack distances so you may need more defense to be safe when you can't figure out your opponent's build.

You can do a paint by numbers build for 3 hatch lurker as well, it would only differ by a few supply if these builds were more popular. But they are gimmicky so people didn't hone them to perfection.

Maybe going 3 hatch muta, but making hydras instead of mutas when spire finishes would be the "correct" build. Banking 9 larva would "give it away" but you're making lurkers anyway.

Thanks, in Eon’s vod effort goes for quick pool and early aggression. See more and more zergs go for it instead of standard 12 hatch. Yeah the question was specifically for lurker builds (no spire until hive started) since I think it’s easier for beginners.

I've been playing 3h lurk in ZvT most games for over 8 years. Never was really good with mutas so that's why I practiced this build heavily instead. Opening is very similar to 3h mutas, difference is I make hydra den at 60% lair, and a more zerglings than with muta build because you need to put a bit of pressure on terran before your lurkers are out because otherwise he can just move out of his base and sit in front of your nat and then your lurker don't do much. You make 4 hydras at 50% lurker upgrade, then when you have lurk you contain terran at his nat, and tech to hive + 3rd very fast to get defilers asap (faster than you would with mutas). When terran start moving out with siege tank, you slowly unburrow and back, etc, to buy time. You pretty much never want to engage into the nat before defilers. You need to add spire eventually because a good counter to 3h mutas is drop play, so you need scourge.

Flash's stream on more than one occasion while off racing as z he will go for a build that looks 2hatch muta when really he is going 2.5 hatch with the 3rd hatch at another gas expo. By the time the terran has figured it out, (but already built unnecessary turrets), there are lurkers at the 3rd and his nat, keeping him safe from any mnm.

from there, he techs super fast to hive for defilers. One detail that he does that ive never seen anyone else do is that while morphing to hive he starts leap froging spore colony's. This keeps his his defilers safe while the vessel count is still low enough.

ill see if i can find a vod for it.

Edit:

Here is an example with flash offracing vs larva:

"I guess if you climb enough off-widths, one of these days, your gonna get your knee stuck and shit your pants. Its just an odds thing really" -Jason Kruk

On November 19 2018 16:12 QuadroX wrote:Does anyone have VODs or replays of Koreans where you can learn the recent meta timings of that build? Like a perfect example of the build itself without too many adjustments for some early game aggression. Feels like liquipedia page is outdated. Thanks!

Here is a bo that i like to do that is very safe copied on sAviOr

hatch 12pool11hatch16 (sAviOr did 15 but me I prefer 16)gas 16

2 ling1 sunk

adjust to the context...

In case terran is going for normal fe you can do the following

take second gas as soon as you start lair (very important), no speed ling and no lings.make drone until 35, make sunken if needed (you will most likely do since u have no lings), drone until 35 + 3 over11 mutaden hydraspeed ling upgradelurker upgrade.

adjust to the context...

very defensive coze you can't put pressure on terran until you have muta but efficient because you have good eco having enough to put 4 sunken and have 900/900 when spire pops out.

Or you can always try to go the classic lair + speed ling and muta, but nowadays terran have tons of ways to break your timing and therefore is (imo) much harder to execute

Ok there's still a controversy in my head. If you don't take a quick third hatch at another base is it still better to go for lurkers instead of 11 mutas with Spire build? To be honest I'm very confused and could not figure what I should go for in ZvT coz there are lots of differences in builds. I need the most solid build which is not aggressive (but maybe still could punish overly greedy terran builds like 14 CC no bunker). I can't yet figure out what works and what does not in my games coz the execution is so poor, almost like random wins/losses.

I could not micro muta like a pro, though I enjoy this harassing process in the game. Sometimes I can pick off marines and workers. Also when my muta is alive I can take my third safely, there's higher chance that those 3 hydras make it to the ramp in time. Additionally compared to lurker build I can easily defend early tank vessel push off 1 base. Every early tank push with contain is much harder to defend with pure lurker ling. The downside #1 that if my muta dies (which often happens) then I could not take my third and the game is almost over from there. The downside #2 if terran goes for a mech build or 1-1-1 which is popular now I feel safer with lurker build since I have my den earlier and could make hydras in time to defend wraith harass/vulture drops.

So I need to pick THE BUILD that's solid enough and aimed for a macro game. Eventually I can do small adjustments to account for different tech trees. I thought lurkers are the way to go but I'm having second thoughts, maybe I should practice plain 3 hatch muta until I get gud with muta micro and shit. I saw effort did his F-rank tutorials on Fish Server where he goes for muta build against T thinking it's better for new players, why didn't he opted for lurkers instead since mutas are micro heavy. Shit, this game is hard to figure out. :D

On November 26 2018 18:31 QuadroX wrote:Ok there's still a controversy in my head. If you don't take a quick third hatch at another base is it still better to go for lurkers instead of 11 mutas with Spire build? To be honest I'm very confused and could not figure what I should go for in ZvT coz there are lots of differences in builds. I need the most solid build which is not aggressive (but maybe still could punish overly greedy terran builds like 14 CC no bunker). I can't yet figure out what works and what does not in my games coz the execution is so poor, almost like random wins/losses.

I could not micro muta like a pro, though I enjoy this harassing process in the game. Sometimes I can pick off marines and workers. Also when my muta is alive I can take my third safely, there's higher chance that those 3 hydras make it to the ramp in time. Additionally compared to lurker build I can easily defend early tank vessel push off 1 base. Every early tank push with contain is much harder to defend with pure lurker ling. The downside #1 that if my muta dies (which often happens) then I could not take my third and the game is almost over from there. The downside #2 if terran goes for a mech build or 1-1-1 which is popular now I feel safer with lurker build since I have my den earlier and could make hydras in time to defend wraith harass/vulture drops.

So I need to pick THE BUILD that's solid enough and aimed for a macro game. Eventually I can do small adjustments to account for different tech trees. I thought lurkers are the way to go but I'm having second thoughts, maybe I should practice plain 3 hatch muta until I get gud with muta micro and shit. I saw effort did his F-rank tutorials on Fish Server where he goes for muta build against T thinking it's better for new players, why didn't he opted for lurkers instead since mutas are micro heavy. Shit, this game is hard to figure out. :D

The BO I gave you answers exactly this need... Also any BO with poor execution will fail.

copy effort's 3h lurk build or zik's. effort's is off 9p and zik's is a little light on drones

flash's is fine too but it's kind of cheesy

3h lurker. a zerg could probably give you a cleaner BO. this is more or less the same as effort's except his is off 9p:12 h11 p13 h15-16 g16 ovielair > speed > den + nat gas > aspect + evo > +1 > spire (scourge)

build as many sunks/lings as you need early gameonce aspect is >50% done build 4-6 hydras for lurkerat 25-26 drones pump only lurker/ling until you secure map control

rough transition to lategame:once you take map control with lurker/ling take your 3rd and start queen's nest (should be like 50-60 sup, though it varies a lot)here pump a round of drones to saturate your 3rd and add a 5th hatch (target ~35 drones, 1 per patch and 3 on gas) then back to pumping armywhen consume is out take your 4th, use swarm to pump another round of drones (target ~45 drones, 1 per patch and 3 on gas)

alternately:take map control, take 3rd (close 3rd if you want), pump to ~35 drones and add 5th hatchkeep pumping lurker/ling forever. wait for T to push out and then crush them, then kill their nat/main

On November 19 2018 16:12 QuadroX wrote:Does anyone have VODs or replays of Koreans where you can learn the recent meta timings of that build? Like a perfect example of the build itself without too many adjustments for some early game aggression. Feels like liquipedia page is outdated. Thanks!

Here is a bo that i like to do that is very safe copied on sAviOr

hatch 12pool11hatch16 (sAviOr did 15 but me I prefer 16)gas 16

2 ling1 sunk

adjust to the context...

In case terran is going for normal fe you can do the following

take second gas as soon as you start lair (very important), no speed ling and no lings.make drone until 35, make sunken if needed (you will most likely do since u have no lings), drone until 35 + 3 over11 mutaden hydraspeed ling upgradelurker upgrade.

adjust to the context...

very defensive coze you can't put pressure on terran until you have muta but efficient because you have good eco having enough to put 4 sunken and have 900/900 when spire pops out.

Or you can always try to go the classic lair + speed ling and muta, but nowadays terran have tons of ways to break your timing and therefore is (imo) much harder to execute

What happens if you do this 16 hatch 16 gas timing but go into a lurker opening instead of muta? Is it just so late that the terran easily contains you?

Number of hydras really depends on the map. If you're on Benzene you really only need 3 lurks to defend the nat and you can grab a quick 3rd in the corner. Make two hyrdas when that hatch finishes. You should be able to safely move some lines down there. If you scout that it's straight bio, keep pumping lurks, lings, and get plague. If you see tanks, research spawn broodlings and make Queens (1 for each tank). I've had mixed results on CB and FS. Denying the scout is helpful as some inexperienced players will overcompensate with useless turrets and most Terran will hesitate to move without into the nat without a vessel. I tend to find a lot of success against SK styled builds with Queens in the mix against tanks as a midgame defense to 3 hatch lurker. You can grab ensnare in the super late game if the Terran doesn't take them out.

He goes for a classic 3 hatch muta but put den at the same time as spire and start lurker upgrade. He goes as if he would wait for 900/900 muta, but will make 6 hydra then 6 lings, the point is that if terran scan at that time he will think you morphed 9 muta then he starts making turret expecting for muta. Your hydra pops out you morph lurker and attack while taking your third immediately going into hive. But this is a bit like gambling, terran can scan at the wrong time and bust your strat. It is nowhere near a solid bo. And needless to say that if you play the same terran many times he will easily anticipate it after being caught once...

Going lurker because your muta sucks isn't a good approach for improvement and it will make you an easy opponent to deal with once the terran figured out it is the only thing you know how to do.