Alright... not even sure what advice to ask for here... but here's my situation.

I have 60 acres. I'm training my one year old Britney on my farm. Every day I free run him from my quad. Recently he's taken off on my twice. Today he came back, the other day he made it to my neighbors 1/4 mile away and they brought him back. I don't know what's caused this recent thing where he takes off on me and doesn't recall (I'm wondering if my e-collar is acting faulty...I have reasons recently for concern with it).

Today I was very worried when he took off, because I heard another major a-hole neighbor start his quad and rip off into the woods yelling something, and I think he was going after my dog (he could hear the bell). Earlier today, the kid called the game warden on me claiming that I was hunting with my dog on his property. This is 100% untrue. I am not a trespasser. The thing that prompted the call was that I was running the dog, and the neighbor was hunting from a new treestand near our property line (on his side), and my dog ran by him. I'm sure he was annoyed thinking I screwed up his hunt. As I was riding by I saw someone in a tree so I immediately called my dog and we went off the other direction. I thought nothing more of it...... then a game warden showed up today. This little "bleep" called the game commission and told an outright lie.

In the past, this same neighbor has stolen two of my treestands (off my property near our property line), he cut one tree down that my stand was in (again...off of my property). He shredded my good neighbors turkey blind (off of the good neighbors property). I've caught him hunting my property, but he took off when he saw me coming towards him so we never spoke. Now, this false trespassing claim (said I was hunting with dog on his property...I never crossed the property line, I never got off my quad or stopped moving, and I didn't even have a gun....just a pure exercise run. My dog did run across the property line by about 30 feet for no more than 15 seconds....but my dog doesn't know the line).

I can't stop exercising my dog. Apparently I can't be sure he won't bolt on me every once in a while (this is super frustrating right now....he's been great until the last two weeks). I'm worried this asshole neighbor will steal or hurt my dog if he gets away from me. I've had about enough of this little prick....but from what I'm told he's only 17 (I've never met him) so I can't beat the crap out of him.

So I guess my two questions would be.....
What could cause my dog to backslide on recall like this?
Can anyone kidnap this neighbor and ship him to Thailand for me?

Sounds like the inconsistency of the e-collar / your inability to correct the dog could be causing it - and either way it is definitely not helping it. I would get a new e-collar with 3/4 to 1 mile range so you know you are able to correct your dog when it is not responding to known commands. Even trained dogs get a wild hair every now and then - I know mine does. Reminding him that I can reach out and touch him seems to make a positive impact in reminding him he needs to listen to me.

As for this neighbor. I would track him down and have a talk with him. You dont need to beat him up. But I would try and see if somthing could be worked out maybe a hunting arrangment or a time when running the dog wont impead his hunting. You may be able to work it out if not at least he will see you and know you know what he is doing.

I currently have a Garmin Sport Pro with 3/4 mile range. It's only about 6 months old. My reason for questioning it is that when he ran off yesterday and wasn't recalling I tried to turn his collar light off so my a-hole neighbor couldn't see him (i was following his bell), but when he finally came back the light was still on. I tried again from 40 yards away and the light still didn't turn off. When we got back to the house i took it off of him and tried from 20 feet away, still wouldn't turn off.... I walked to 5' away and it turned off. I'm questioning if the light didn't turn off, does that mean the stim also wasn't working (I know it did earlier in the run b/c he was responding to it). I charge it religiously, so I can't imagine that as the problem, but I put it back on the charger anyway and am going to try to do some testing on it today.

I've traditionally gone with the theory of not nicking him when I can't see him, but recently have been using the collar when he is out of sight to back up my "here" and to whistle train.... I can tell he's moving and when he turns from the bell. It's seemed to work well....other than these couple times when he's seemed to go full defiant. We run in the woods and in hilly fields, so there are a LOT of times I need to recall him when he's out of sight. Frequently, if he's more than 50 yards away he's out of sight. If I call him and he doesn't immediately respond, I guess I don't know what else to do to back up my command other than reach out with the collar -- but I do worry that I'm screwing up there.

mm wrote:As for this neighbor. I would track him down and have a talk with him. You dont need to beat him up. But I would try and see if something could be worked out maybe a hunting arrangement or a time when running the dog wont impead his hunting. You may be able to work it out if not at least he will see you and know you know what he is doing.

Yep... I know you're right here. That seems to be the mature adult thing to do.... I just stubbornly hate to in any way capitulate to him b/c of his past actions. His family owns 10 acres in the middle of 3 or 4 of us who own the other 300 surrounding acres, and he acts like none of us have a right to use our own land, and thinks he somehow has a right to all of ours. I have a good bit of pent up anger. But.... I know that's the way I need to go.

Sorry to say, but even though your neighbor is a jerk, this is mostly on you. It's your responsibility to control your dog. Replace that defective ecollar and retrain a good recall. It sounds to me like the dog may be running deer, so working on a set-up trashbreaking session would be a good thing. I think Pennsylvania law allows hunters to shoot dogs running deer, no? Work on training a good pattern on your dog so he isn't running willy-nilly; keeping him on edges where you can see him, and in clear places like waterways will keep the stress away. Set up a roading rig on your quad so you can exercise the dog totally within your control. Roading can give you lots of conditioning in short time frames.

I run my dogs on adjoining properties with permission from the owners (we have only 6 acres). They also allow family and friends to hunt. So I understand both sides. IMO it helps to apologize for screwing up a hunt the next time you see the hunter if you can't do it immediately. We stay off the property on weekends, and during prime hours ( before and after work) and we scout for trucks parked in odd places before we run the dogs at all; sometimes we run the properties off the four wheeler before running the dogs, sometimes I get in the car and drive down to the field access to spot for trucks.

We have a jerk neighbors across the road. So I know your pain. It's too much to go into here, but they sound a lot like yours. The best we can do is to avoid them as much as possible without being hostile, and to work on good relationships with all the good neighbors to watch out for each other vs the bad ones.

Good luck. I hope all the nice big bucks stay on your place and not theirs

Last edited by shags on Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

Generally there are two sides to every argument. It seems a little silly that you would not even know your next door neighbor on sight. If somebody is stealing stands in your neighborhood and wrecking things maybe you should call the law. A few well placed trail cameras can solve a lot of issues.

I do realize things have changed with everybody packing, things get a bit out of hand. It don't seem likely that a seventeen year old would own the land, he must have parents, the logical thing would be to visit them and try to work it out. It might be wise to get a deputy to go with you. Try to get the name calling out of your head before you go and go with a open mind. Your neighbor has rights too. He might turn out to be your next best friend, who just don't get what you are doing. Maybe he is what you say but you don't know
In most states it is illegal to shoot a hunting dog. With no witnesses that won't help the dog much. It is your responsibility to keep your dog off your neighbor's property.
Good Luck, Be careful.....Cj

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Art... Sounds like a great deal. I'll take it! You're a little behind me on time zones, so you can call me at 412-716-2569 any time, or I'll give you a call later today. I'll mail you a check, you can just send me the e-collar after you get the check and it clears if that works for you (unless you can take paypal or something like that). I appreciate it.

cjhills wrote:Generally there are two sides to every argument. It seems a little silly that you would not even know your next door neighbor on sight. If somebody is stealing stands in your neighborhood and wrecking things maybe you should call the law. A few well placed trail cameras can solve a lot of issues.

I absolutely get this.... there are always two sides...not necessarily two reasonable or just sides, but two sides regardless. I can assure you I take great pride in being very un-Trump like....but I'm also not above calling someone a prick when they steal and destroy other's property. I'm a firm believer in having personal accountability and always looking inward first before blaming others for anything..... and I don't deny that my dog being 30 feet over a property line for 30 seconds is my responsibility. I just also think that making up a story about me hunting on his land and calling the game commission is not an equal and adequate response to that mistake. Until my dog ran past him in a stand (that I had no idea was there until that moment), there literally could not be a second side to the rest of the issues. My items and my neighbors property destroyed or stolen off of our own land, my tree cut down on my land.... having never had any past encounters with the person at all....it's hard for me to imagine what the other side of the argument would be. As far as silly to not know my neighbor.... Our houses are a half mile apart and there are 10 other neighbors along the road b/n our driveways. It's not like we live next to each other....the back of our properties just abut. The only way I'd ever meet him would be if I purposely go to his house to find him, or if I catch him trespassing. It's not an anti-social situation....it's just logistics.

In the end, you are correct that it is my responsible to keep my dog off the neighbors property. I still think he's a little a-hole. But...I'll go talk to his dad and figure something out. I'll probably ask the game commission officer to go with me.

That T&B 2500 has a beep function on it too. I whistle trained my dog and quickly realized on windy days when I was walking into the wind he was not able to hear me. So I synced up the collar beep with his whistle recall training and he now knows to come when he heres the collar beep. If I am running him in thicker cover - or areas where I know that I will not have great sight lines - I will use a garmin astro on him too so I know where he is and I can effectively beep or nick him as needed.

Almost all e-collar handheld units have a decrease in performance / range when it gets cold out. If you can keep the handheld in a coat pocket to keep it warm on cold days it will work a bit better. Also a newer battery helps with performance as well.

As far as the neighbor is concerned, you might consider having a meeting with the other neighbors who are also having problems with this one individual and detailing those problems. If anyone has visual proof, such as trail cam footage to back up claims, that would be very helpful going forward.

Then place a call to the game warden or state police or both and request a meeting with them to advise them of the situation and clear the air. Be advised that claims of trespass, or of hunting without the proper licensing are just that...claims that need to be proven in a court of law. False accusations made to law enforcement also have repercussions.
Not the least of these repercussions is the fact that continued calls to law enforcement and repeated visits by LE can be considered harassment, which is also actionable.

If there is no formal written complaint, there is nothing much that the LE personnel can do to you or anyone else, but if your neighbor is stupid enough to file a formal complaint, they can be held accountable.

I have had several instances with my one neighbor regarding claims of trespass and such and calling the State police. The State police were advised that continued visits to my residence in response to these calls would be considered harassment. Then the neighbor made a call, claiming to be someone else and the state police came to my door again...as they should. It was then discovered that she, in fact misled the SP, because the call came from the same phone as all the others. Police do not like it when you jerk their chain and put them in a bad situation.

That was well over a year ago and I have heard nothing from her or the police since.

Let the law enforcement personnel handle the annoying neighbor. Carry a cell phone with a camera when you go afield. If you see your neighbor doing something illegal...record it for posterity and document the date and time.

RayG

As far as running the dog is concerned...you have been given good advice, I think.

I would make a habit of going out with the ATV and making a pass along my property line with this neighbor immediately prior to cutting the dog loose for a run. If you see your neighbor or any of their family on your property...pull out that cellphone camera.

Talking won't fix a thing. This has nothing to do with you or your dog. If not your dog, he'll find something else to be a problem about. He trespass's himself and destroy's your property, even on your property. He is simply a bast*rd!

cjhills wrote:Generally there are two sides to every argument. It seems a little silly that you would not even know your next door neighbor on sight. If somebody is stealing stands in your neighborhood and wrecking things maybe you should call the law. A few well placed trail cameras can solve a lot of issues.

I absolutely get this.... there are always two sides...not necessarily two reasonable or just sides, but two sides regardless. I can assure you I take great pride in being very un-Trump like....but I'm also not above calling someone a prick when they steal and destroy other's property. I'm a firm believer in having personal accountability and always looking inward first before blaming others for anything..... and I don't deny that my dog being 30 feet over a property line for 30 seconds is my responsibility. I just also think that making up a story about me hunting on his land and calling the game commission is not an equal and adequate response to that mistake. Until my dog ran past him in a stand (that I had no idea was there until that moment), there literally could not be a second side to the rest of the issues. My items and my neighbors property destroyed or stolen off of our own land, my tree cut down on my land.... having never had any past encounters with the person at all....it's hard for me to imagine what the other side of the argument would be. As far as silly to not know my neighbor.... Our houses are a half mile apart and there are 10 other neighbors along the road b/n our driveways. It's not like we live next to each other....the back of our properties just abut. The only way I'd ever meet him would be if I purposely go to his house to find him, or if I catch him trespassing. It's not an anti-social situation....it's just logistics.

In the end, you are correct that it is my responsible to keep my dog off the neighbors property. I still think he's a little a-hole. But...I'll go talk to his dad and figure something out. I'll probably ask the game commission officer to go with me.

I am not accusing you of anything, it is just how things are. It is in your best interest to get along with your neighbor and control your dog. In a legal battle the dog owner and the dog always lose.
I do have one other question. In your comment about trying to turn off the light, I wondered why you need the light on. Were you running the dog after dark so the neighbor could not see him. I think Shags is right. He is very likely starting to run deer, it will get worse and the life expectancy of your dog will go down dramatically.
I have had people tell me their dogs didn't run deer when everybody seen them doing it. My kennel is on 2 acres for 25 years I have ran my dogs nearly every morning on neighboring property. I have had10 tom 20 dogs. Most of my neighbors are not dog people. All are deer hunters and would shoot my dogs in a heartbeat if caught running a deer in the winter. Which is legal in Mn.
I have 4 houses within 300 yards of mine. I take great care not to upset my neighbors. They could shut me down tomorrow if they wanted to...…..Cj

Last edited by cjhills on Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

Steve, go ahead and talk to *all* your neighbors and see what shakes out. At the least, you'll know where everyone stands and can plan accordingly.

Myself, and a couple of nearby trainers I've worked with, have done this and in general have had positive response from property owners; we've all received unasked for permission to use their land with small parameters, like "as long as you don't take the four wheeler across my crops" Each of us also have at least one stinker to deal with as well, but at least we know to avoid any and all activity that would cause conflict with them.

An added bonus is that neighbors you've reached out to seem more likely to help out when a dog goes astray, either in helping to search or in containing the dog and calling the number on the tag.

From my perspective you have 2 separate and distinct issues. #1 - Your dog is not fully trained on recall, which is the number one command for gun dogs. Obviously, every time he runs free he is at risk! So I would focus all my effort on training recall again! Many good trainer do not use a collar for recall training which is part of the original obedience. Then once the dog is 100% with distractions on recall and following a proper collar conditioning frequently mixed into a good force fetch program, you then use the collar. Now that the dog has learned he can run, it will be difficult to retrain him, you might want to engage a pro to help out with this as just being able to 'burn him' for obedience may do more harm than good!

Coming on 40 years of using Tri-Tronics and now Garmin products with near zero malfunctions. Have used them many times in sub-zero weather with no change in their function. I train my dogs to recall to the tone. With the combined GPS and Ecollar I can tell where my dog is and what he is doing, including giving me instant feedback on how he is responding to the tone when I issue a recall command with it. Which is nice. Once you get past the money you would enjoy every moment of the peace of mind and control the tool provides.

I recommend you stay on the high road with your neighbor for as long as you can. Going to meet and talk with them is basic and sounds like it is overdue. You have more to loose in your dog, and getting embattled with the wrong next door neighbor never works out well for an honorable person on the other side, even when you are in the right. Best to avoid it as much as possible and that starts with controlling our own actions and your dog.

averageguy wrote:Coming on 40 years of using Tri-Tronics and now Garmin products with near zero malfunctions. Have used them many times in sub-zero weather with no change in their function. I train my dogs to recall to the tone. With the combined GPS and Ecollar I can tell where my dog is and what he is doing, including giving me instant feedback on how he is responding to the tone when I issue a recall command with it. Which is nice. Once you get past the money you would enjoy every moment of the peace of mind and control the tool provides.

I recommend you stay on the high road with your neighbor for as long as you can. Going to meet and talk with them is basic and sounds like it is overdue. You have more to loose in your dog, and getting embattled with the wrong next door neighbor never works out well for an honorable person on the other side, even when you are in the right. Best to avoid it as much as possible and that starts with controlling our own actions and your dog.

Don't know how or why Trump got drug into this but it is par for the course that he gets blamed for things not of his doing, so why not this I guess!

I called someone a name...."prick" I believe. I understand the point b/c I did name call, which probably wasn't necessary.

Back on the subject at hand -- I like the tone recall. I need to start overlaying that. I've been overlaying a silent whistle command which has been working, but the tone (with a working e-collar) would probably reach further. Would there be any problem with using both? I like that the tone will reach further....but I like that with the whistle the dog hears my location. I'm in hilly Western PA, in thick woods and swirling winds, if I've walked a couple hundred yards the dog could (by memory) have me on a totally different hillside than I'm actually on. I know "his nose will find you" is the general belief, but I sure have a bigger comfort level knowing he has two senses getting me instead of one if I really want him to come back.

Lastly...I did some more testing to see what was happening with my pretty new Garmin Sport Pro. It now, no joke, has a total range of 5'. I tested it straight off a charge, inside my 68 degree house, with no barriers...and it hits at 5'. I don't believe it's the battery, because I know the moment it stopped working. We were on a run, my dog responded to it at about 100 yards, then never responded again until it was almost right beside me and I turned his light off. Anyone have any idea if this is something that is reprogrammable, or what I can do with this? I'm sure I have the box and owner's manual somewhere, I'll start trying to dig those up and see what they say (if anything).

I don't think the manual will help much. You could call the Collar Clinic they might help. Is there a possibility it don't get a good signal in the house. try it at 50 yards outside. I havethe same problem with the tone recall.The dog can't locate me in the woods. they go back to their last contact spot and track me. It can waste a lot of time.
Again I was not accusing you. Just saying name calling has got alot more acceptable......Cj

cjhills wrote:Generally there are two sides to every argument. It seems a little silly that you would not even know your next door neighbor on sight. If somebody is stealing stands in your neighborhood and wrecking things maybe you should call the law. A few well placed trail cameras can solve a lot of issues.

I absolutely get this.... there are always two sides...not necessarily two reasonable or just sides, but two sides regardless. I can assure you I take great pride in being very un-Trump like....but I'm also not above calling someone a prick when they steal and destroy other's property. I'm a firm believer in having personal accountability and always looking inward first before blaming others for anything..... and I don't deny that my dog being 30 feet over a property line for 30 seconds is my responsibility. I just also think that making up a story about me hunting on his land and calling the game commission is not an equal and adequate response to that mistake. Until my dog ran past him in a stand (that I had no idea was there until that moment), there literally could not be a second side to the rest of the issues. My items and my neighbors property destroyed or stolen off of our own land, my tree cut down on my land.... having never had any past encounters with the person at all....it's hard for me to imagine what the other side of the argument would be. As far as silly to not know my neighbor.... Our houses are a half mile apart and there are 10 other neighbors along the road b/n our driveways. It's not like we live next to each other....the back of our properties just abut. The only way I'd ever meet him would be if I purposely go to his house to find him, or if I catch him trespassing. It's not an anti-social situation....it's just logistics.

In the end, you are correct that it is my responsible to keep my dog off the neighbors property. I still think he's a little a-hole. But...I'll go talk to his dad and figure something out. I'll probably ask the game commission officer to go with me.

I am not accusing you of anything, it is just how things are. It is in your best interest to get along with your neighbor and control your dog. In a legal battle the dog owner and the dog always lose.
I do have one other question. In your comment about trying to turn off the light, I wondered why you need the light on. Were you running the dog after dark so the neighbor could not see him. I think Shags is right. He is very likely starting to run deer, it will get worse and the life expectancy of your dog will go down dramatically.
I have had people tell me their dogs didn't run deer when everybody seen them doing it. My kennel is on 2 acres for 25 years I have ran my dogs nearly every morning on neighboring property. I have had10 tom 20 dogs. Most of my neighbors are not dog people. All are deer hunters and would shoot my dogs in a heartbeat if caught running a deer in the winter. Which is legal in Mn.
I have 4 houses within 300 yards of mine. I take great care not to upset my neighbors. They could shut me down tomorrow if they wanted to...…..Cj

Forgot to answer this.... yes, I was running him at night - not the time that he ran past the hunter, but the next day when he ran off on me and I heard my neighbor fire up his quad to (i assume) go look for my dog. The neighbor could hear his bell. When I thought my neighbor was looking for my dog, I tried to turn his light off. This is the run where my Garmin Pro Sport decided to go defunct (per my post below)....so he wasn't responding to me nicking him and I couldn't get the light off until he came back to me.
I don't believe he runs deer....if he does, he doesn't do it when I'm around. I watch him ignore nearby deer all the time. Who knows though...maybe once he's out of my sight he acts differently. When I first trash broke him, I tried to make him think the deer shot a lightning bolt out of its "bleep"....and it seemed to have been perfectly effective -- but I certainly can't guarantee anything that happens out of my sight.
This dog normally stays within 50 to 100 yards of my quad. when I change direction, so does he. He normally comes on call.... normally. But this recent activity has my stress levels through the roof. I also REALLY do not like that he seems to listen to me really well when I can nick him...but as soon as the e-collar is out of play he blows off my commands much more freely. I need to fix that somehow. He needs to listen to me for being his boss, not because I can nick him.
One last thing.... I know you're never supposed to give a command you can't enforce. Also, you're never supposed to repeat commands (don't keep yelling "here" over and over.... but in a situation like this -- he's not recalling, he's out of sight, I can't shock him (though I didn't realize it wasn't working at the time, I thought he just didn't care)...I need him back. I yelled "here" about 20 times. I don't know what my other option was. What else should I do in this type of situation to not break those "cardinal rules" of dog training?

To add one other thing to that first answer about the light.... we run at night almost every day. I'll normally get to run him once during the day, then I'll run him fairly late before bed (10 or 11:00). I like night runs b/c with the light it's really easy to keep my eyes on him and know he's staying close, which 98% of the time goes well. My problems have seemed to happen in the day when I stop the quad and let him explore instead of keeping him on a hard run with me.

I also hope to have him run with me when I go mountain biking in the future....but for that he has to be bullet proof on staying close and recalling without hesitation, b/c we can come across other people on public trails. I know he's not ready for that yet.

First understand I get everything you are posting.
I think if I was out running my dogs at night at least one or more of my neighbors would think I was up to some kind of no good and I would likely get a visit from the law.
Maybe you need to go back to basics and get better recall on the dog before going to the ecollar. I do that with a choke chain and check cords of various lengths. I am also note a fan of nick, I think it causes a lot of dogs to ignore the collar. I like to control the length of the stim. Once you get a good recall. let him get out a bit and call him once if he ignores it hammer him. Give him a little time to respond, but not much 5 to 10 seconds. Do this several times on your runs when you can see him.
The thing about once is big problem if your collar malfunctions. In most states that I have been in , you do have a right to go over the fence to get your dog.
One other thing scent conditions are much better at night and may get him running things you don't want. Coons, Skunks and deer come to mind......Cj

Sounds like the dog is collar wise from what you said. This is hard to fix but I would never run him without the collar. I have a dog that ranges very far and is often out of sight. I am ok with this because it is a trial dog and I want her out there. I dont think your dog is doing anything wrong. My big fear about hitting him with the e collar especialy at night would be you might hurt your training or the dog. What if he is in a fight with a coon are fox or somthing hitting him with the collar would put him at a real disadvantage. You should have a new garmin the one that updates every 2.5 seconds He should never run without it. You should stay on him as close as possible with the bike. If he is out of sight find him before any corrections are made. I have a large property to run on and this is what I do. Several times I have found my dog with the gps fighting with woodchucks. This is my problem no matter what I do I cant break this one from fighting woodchucks.

Thanks Steve, I have coffee all down the front of my pajamas from my jaw dropping...

I'm kind of speechless about free running a dog at night. Holy cow, there's so much they can get into...raccoons, coyotes, gut piles, snares, feral dogs, coon hunters, the bad neighbor, the bogeyman...a dog can get gone in a heartbeat and it's bad enough losing one in the daylight.
If night was my only time to exercise the dogs, I'd definitely use a roading rig. A year old is young IMO to have a dog pulling very much, but I'd hook him up and make him heel to the quad. All it takes is a bar, a drop chain, and a harness.

Recall is easy enough to work on. And it's no big deal if the dog has the collar on whenever he's free running.

Multiple commands? That's a real world thing when we get into a situation that nerves us up. A better recall helps with it.

Maybe the problem neighbor thinks you're out there spotting deer and poaching at night, or some other nefarious activity?

During my working career it was common for me to leave home in the dark and return in the dark in the winter months. I worked puppies under the flood lights and ran adult dogs at night regularly as it was the only alternative. (Treed alot of coons and bobcats while doing it too). My dogs were broke from running deer. We lived on 40 acres and I had permission to be on my adjoining neighbors. I wised up a bit over time and mowed walking paths and trained my latter dogs that we were going to be taking the same route around the acreage using those paths which helped with controlling the dog in the dark. But fur game encountered took all the dogs where it took them. Had a few epic battles with coons caught on the ground which comes with the territory of running a GWP.

You do what you have to do. I ran an ecollar always, and if it were now I would also have GPS which would be a huge step up from the era when I did not have it.

A year old dog is hitting an age where it will commonly test the limits of your OB training, particularly recall while hunting so what you are experiencing is common. You must be consistent, persistent and your ecollar must function properly (as you know). All the TT/Garmin products I have owned/used were their top of the line models Pro 100, 500, Alpha, 550 Plus. With critical equipment I buy the best and have never regretted it.

You asked about the ecollar tone. I train, use it and like it for silent dog handling. But I also have a trained voice and whistle command. If the dog is confused in high wind and heavy cover as to my whereabouts, I can always blow my whistle to let him know where I am, but I do that as sparingly as possible as I hunt in silence other than the noise we make walking and hopefully some gunfire along the way. And all my dogs easily/quickly learn at a young age to loop around, cut my boot track and follow it back to me. Pretty common to read online comments from persons with similar tastes as myself who refuse to hunt with guys who holler and whistle to their dogs alot...

If you want really good neighbors you have to be one. Running around in the dark especially in deer season is not going to make most deer hunters or any other neighbors happy. I'm with shags on this put him on a road rig if you just have to run him after dark. Who is the problem neighbor here?

From all the information you have provided, I still think, from what I have read, that your dog is not completely trained to a recall command (Here or Whistle). I think I see you suggesting that having a better tone collar or e collar will fix the fact that the dog is not recalling when called. All of the well trained dog I have observed always recall on command! Period! If you go to any hunt test (where collars are not allowed), the titled dogs always recall on command...it is bird dog 101 and requires ongoing training throughout the dogs life. The collar only works well on a dog that is already recalling consistently. If you use it to force recall, the dog will recall, but may become very fearful or hesitant when hunting.

Training recall is one of the easier areas of training in terms of methods. The Perfect Start DVD is the best I have seen for showing how to first train it and then how to overlay the ecollar onto the already trained command, so the dog understands blowing you off is never an option. And it is done with low levels of stimulation, only increasing when/as needed when the dog does not respond to the already trained command, correctly.

Most dogs run in hunt tests in the States are never run, trained or hunted without an ecollar on, until the day of the Hunt test so the dog never has opportunity to think or behave otherwise. Commands always mean what they mean and are always enforced/reenforced as needed. Collar wise dogs are a pain and happen most due to inconsistency on wearing and using the collars. My dogs have done well in the Hunt Tests we have run and that is how I have approached it.

If your dog is on your property then your neighbors have nothing to say about it. Day or night. And if your dog is on their property they have every right to say something about that. Day or night. I don't recommend training a dog in the dark, but I very much understand how a working man in the dead of winter may have to exercise a dog in the dark after he gets home from work. I did it with numerous dogs for a few decades so know for a fact it can be done.