Combo points on the enemy as a theme are already dead. Hey, I made a combo on the enemy, now I'll unleash my ultimate move...recuperate!

Then there are the annoying irregularities on combo points. Such as combo points sometimes disappearing instantly when something dies or goes invulnerable.

Really the huge QoL change of combo points on the rogue greatly outweighs the 'gameplay benefits' of combo points on the target. Rogues are in need of some real gameplay mechanics, but broken combo points on the target are not it.

The other thing is, we are asking for a BIG technical change. I'm asking for the biggest: I want a spec that offers multiple combo point targets, another spec offering them on the rogue, and one more acting like live. Holy crapballs! That means that the existing one has to be extended, and a whole second resource system created! Why, that's tantamount to what they've done for half the other classes in this game already!

Eh, I don't like any of these "different specs get it on the Rogue or target" arguments, the mechanic is not interesting and has little gameplay associated with it, it's just a ball of shit you throw at a random spec. Also, to have it different across specs means you have to justify it flavour-wise, and CP-on-Rogue vs. CP-on-target has no flavour, it's simply a game mechanic.

It's like saying one spec of Warlocks should have to keep their shards in their bags like they used to while others get them as a resource.

I think Rogue specs need more differentiation, but that means inventing new and interesting and different-feeling skills, along with adapting the existing ones. Not recycling awkward game concepts that just feel outdated.

While we're at it - why not put dots on player so the poisons will move into your next target when you switch? ::::::::::::DD

For being serious: I think that when you imagine it, you really need to carve through your targets armor before you can apply some serious wounds. Combo points tells you that your enemy's armor is broken enough for you to finalize your attack. New combo points means that you've opened another spot on your enemy's armor.

If they made it so the combo points were on us it would remove some of the skill from playing our class. im really hoping they dont screw with us or our playstyle too much, because who knows what on earth we'd end up with?

Originally Posted by WanderingBreezes

To be honest, the worst thing about Horde archetecture is how incredibly ineffective and easily destroyed it is. To take out an alliance fortress you need siege weapons and spies. To take out a Horde fortress you need some torches and a book to read while it all burns down.

While we're at it - why not put dots on player so the poisons will move into your next target when you switch? ::::::::::::DD

For being serious: I think that when you imagine it, you really need to carve through your targets armor before you can apply some serious wounds. Combo points tells you that your enemy's armor is broken enough for you to finalize your attack. New combo points means that you've opened another spot on your enemy's armor.

Again, combo points on the target as a theme are dead. Look at Slice and Dice as well as Recuperate.

I imagine it's because rogues have a ramp-up time for their abilities (Combo points). If you can spend any kind of finisher on all targets without repercussions from the build up time, it kind of defeats the purpose of combo points initial down side. I guess this means less in today's World of Warcraft, where things aren't stored on a character / creature you target, but yourself. It's a nice design when everyone has some kind of advantage / disadvantage for having or not having a ramp up system. That doesn't seem to be the case for WoW now, as it did in the past.

It would feel wrong to make combo points be on character, as it would bare too much resemblance to the copy-cat Holy Power mechanic. Granted Holy Power isn't much fun nor well implemented for anything but Holy Paladin. At least to me that system only works for Holy, but that's off-topic.

Hearts are man kinds lock. If only everyone's emotions were a skeleton key, this world would be a happier place.

I imagine it's because rogues have a ramp-up time for their abilities (Combo points). If you can spend any kind of finisher on all targets without repercussions from the build up time, it kind of defeats the purpose of combo points initial down side. I guess this means less in today's World of Warcraft, where things aren't stored on a character / creature you target, but yourself. It's a nice design when everyone has some kind of advantage / disadvantage for having or not having a ramp up system. That doesn't seem to be the case for WoW now, as it did in the past.

It would feel wrong to make combo points be on character, as it would bare too much resemblance to the copy-cat Holy Power mechanic. Granted Holy Power isn't much fun nor well implemented for anything but Holy Paladin. At least to me that system only works for Holy, but that's off-topic.

why is everyone comparing rogues to freakin paladins ? why are ppl so stubborn i bet those nay sayers dont even have a rogue or dont play him as a main your opinion is not even relevant. jeez give me a break already

Last edited by Koji2k11; 2013-09-06 at 06:38 AM.

the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues :

-Rogues might still be dealing with the changes to combo points {2014}

If i have to build up like a champ, i want to hit like a champ. And since we don't, unless you count fully raidbuffed, trinket procced envenoms on a debuffed mob, i see abso-friggin-lutely no balance issues whatsoever, not in pve and sure as hell not in pvp. All those delusional weirdos babbling about 5cp kidney shots or whichever finisher it is that kills people instantly need to go out again. This is not 2005.

And if you are afraid of change (oh, i bet you are) those ideas of Verain, whereas each rogue spec has a different iteration of combo points sure sound interesting.

I imagine it's because rogues have a ramp-up time for their abilities (Combo points). If you can spend any kind of finisher on all targets without repercussions from the build up time, it kind of defeats the purpose of combo points initial down side.

Again, Redirect every 10 sec and Marked For Death to apply a instant 5 CPs.. we CAN do that now.. we could do it at any time with Versatility not long ago.
You´d still need to build those 5 CPs to do a finisher, it´s not like anyone is suggesting you always START with 5.
The only difference from when we had Versatility is pushing 1 button without CD, and with 5.4, glyphed to 10 sec CD.
In both cases, you still need to build 5 CPs (except for when using MfD, that´s just a free instant 5 CPs)

They´ve done a lot of work to reduce the ramp up time for rogues, removing DP stacking and envenom based on DP stacks AND CPs for example.
Redirect is a bandaid for ramp up at target switching.

Also, if NOT having to redirect every 10 sec, or bleed CPs to vanishing mobs and all those naggling issues, is what separates Rogues from Paladins, then sure.. lets be paladins I guess?
Apparently they´re rogues, cause they have some form of CP now.

Originally Posted by hermoraunio

For being serious: I think that when you imagine it, you really need to carve through your targets armor before you can apply some serious wounds. Combo points tells you that your enemy's armor is broken enough for you to finalize your attack. New combo points means that you've opened another spot on your enemy's armor.

Sounds like you´re talking about Expose Armor, not CPs.
How does Redirect, Marked for Death, Honor Among Theives, SnD, Recouperate, Crimson Tempest, Fan of Knives only applying this supposed weakness to 1 target, the Envenom buff (not target specific), fit in your world view concerning the "cannon" of CPs?

Originally Posted by hermoraunio

While we're at it - why not put dots on player so the poisons will move into your next target when you switch? ::::::::::::DD

Poisons are passively built on your current target, almost instantly.. so.. what would be the point?
And when they removed the stacking on DP, they removed some ramp up from switching, as it is it doesnt take long to for poisons to apply to the target.
And you dont want Rupture moving when you switch anyway.. you leave it to tick on another target.
And when a target dies with Rupture, you get a chunk o energy back.

As pointed out above, wont be much different from today with redirect, or 5.4 with a 10 sec glyphed redirect, or when we had Versatility for CD-less Redirect.
You still need to build those CPs somewhere, unless you´re sub, who has HoT and can just wait for them to build.
Or you use MfD and just magically create 5 CPs on a target from thin air.

You can have that exact scenario today, using redirect or MfD.. or redirect first, use 5CPs, then use MfD, use 5Cps again.

I think MfD is probably the only thing that would need to be rebalanced, it replaced Versatility to be a more attractive option that would solve some of the same problems.. so it´s kinda there as a bandaid.

Again, combo points on the target as a theme are dead. Look at Slice and Dice as well as Recuperate.

That doesn't mean that combo points on the target are dead as a theme, that means that SnD and recuperate fail as combo points consumers because they don't fit the theme, at least that's what i think, combo point should be for offensive moves, not for self buffs.

I consider that simply changing combo points from target to rogue is the most boring solution, i believe there are better and more imaginative ways to deal with this and even keep combo points on the target while adding more fun and diverse gameplay.

That doesn't mean that combo points on the target are dead as a theme, that means that SnD and recuperate fail as combo points consumers because they don't fit the theme, at least that's what i think, combo point should be for offensive moves, not for self buffs.

I consider that simply changing combo points from target to rogue is the most boring solution, i believe there are better and more imaginative ways to deal with this and even keep combo points on the target while adding more fun and diverse gameplay.

You´d push to remove/change SnD, Recoup, Marked for Death, Honor Among Thieves, Redirect, Crimson Tempest, envenom buff, and finally make sure FOK puts a CP on every target to keep CPs on the theme of target specific damage finishers, over moving CPs to the rogue?
All of these fall outside of the "attacks creates weakness on enemy" theme.
Cause it´s a fairly huge change to the class, all in all, while moving CPs to the player is a fairly minor one, to how it plays.
Even just taking SnD and recoup off CPs changes more for gameplay, even if you make them passives (ermagerd, recoup passive? I DUN WANA BE WARRIORS!), just a button with a energy cost or straight up CDs.
Something will have to replace SnD in the rotation (now SnD is perhaps not a very interesting skill to begin with, and all but passive on assassination, but that´s besides the point of this topic)

Im all for more interesting gameplay, I dont think moving the CPs over excludes making changes in favor of that though.
You can still "add more fun and diverse gameplay" without using redirect every time you switch target, it´s a really trivial mechanic.
Because you CAN use redirect on almost all target switches with a 10 sec glyph, except when the game makes it impossible with vanishing mobs and all those previously mentioned cases.
Even the Versatility replacement, Marked For Death suffers from bugs where enemys who die, dont really COUNT as if they die, they explode or are otherwise removed, and wont reset the CD, many of which also will vanish with your CPs and remove any chance for the "high skill ability" Redirect, which apparently is so class defining to some.

You´d push to remove/change SnD, Recoup, Marked for Death, Honor Among Thieves, Redirect, Crimson Tempest, envenom buff, and finally make sure FOK puts a CP on every target to keep CPs on the theme of target specific damage finishers, over moving CPs to the rogue?
All of these fall outside of the "attacks creates weakness on enemy" theme.

You just mixed up a bunch of abilities that have nothing to do with what i said, marked for death is just a combo point management skill and it fits the theme actually. Combo point finishers, that's what i was talking about:
- Envenom/Eviscerate, Rupture, kidney shot, deadly throw, crimson tempest: Offensive finishers, they affect the target, yes, even Envenom.
- SnD, Recuperate: self-buffs, they affect the rogue.

Combo points are pretty strong as a theme: you build up a weakness and finally you exploit that weakness. Yes, the actual gameplay of that theme has some bugs and feels really old when compared with similar mechanics such as chi or holy power, but hell... the theme is awesome!

That's why i think it would be more interesting and better for the class if they try to keep the theme. That doesn't mean that i don't want them to take a deep look in the combo points mechanic and not only fix the bugs, but also improve the whole system. Keep in mind that my focus is always with the theme, i don't want to lose the feel that i'm building up the weakness to hit in the right spot, how they do it? i don't care as long as i have that feeling.

You just mixed up a bunch of abilities that have nothing to do with what i said, marked for death is just a combo point management skill and it fits the theme actually. Combo point finishers, that's what i was talking about:
- Envenom/Eviscerate, Rupture, kidney shot, deadly throw, crimson tempest: Offensive finishers, they affect the target, yes, even Envenom.
- SnD, Recuperate: self-buffs, they affect the rogue.

That´s one distinction you can make, sure.

Originally Posted by Geckoo

Combo points are pretty strong as a theme: you build up a weakness and finally you exploit that weakness. Yes, the actual gameplay of that theme has some bugs and feels really old when compared with similar mechanics such as chi or holy power, but hell... the theme is awesome!

I agree, the Combo point and energy system IS great, Ive mained rogue since vanilla after all, and it´s my favorite class.
But "building up weakness" on a target, does not match the abilities I listed there.
Ex the envenom buff, bread and butter for assassination, is a buff on the player, and affects everything you hit with FoK, or any other target you decide to switch to.
CT puts a bleed on targets other then the one you´ve "weakened".
MfD just magics up "5 weaknesses" on the target, you never had to touch it.
Honor of theives will stack up "weakness" on whatever target you have, even if you arent in combat, if someone just stands around and heals him/her self and crits.
Redirect will "heal" the weaknesses on your previous target, and magic them over to another target.
Even having Eviscerate hit multiple mobs with BF is pushing it, why are they affected? they dont have any "weakness" on them, you´re hitting them sure, but why aren´t they weakened then, and still affected?

Tbh, it´s not much about weakening an opponent anymore, it´s just generating one of the 2 currencies we´re based on, and that IS fine.

Originally Posted by Geckoo

That's why i think it would be more interesting and better for the class if they try to keep the theme. That doesn't mean that i don't want them to take a deep look in the combo points mechanic and not only fix the bugs, but also improve the whole system. Keep in mind that my focus is always with the theme, i don't want to lose the feel that i'm building up the weakness to hit in the right spot, how they do it? i don't care as long as i have that feeling.

Feels like that specific theme of building weakness on the target is long gone though, it´s full of holes with all the changes since vanilla.
It´s just a currency, and they keep building gameplay where it doesnt entirely work.
So presumably they really love the idea of having the occational exploding or otherwise dissipating enemy enough to throw our ancient resource management system under the buss every now and then.. even the shiny new MfD suffers in those places as they wont always reset the CD.

I imagine it's because rogues have a ramp-up time for their abilities (Combo points). If you can spend any kind of finisher on all targets without repercussions from the build up time, it kind of defeats the purpose of combo points initial down side. I guess this means less in today's World of Warcraft, where things aren't stored on a character / creature you target, but yourself. It's a nice design when everyone has some kind of advantage / disadvantage for having or not having a ramp up system. That doesn't seem to be the case for WoW now, as it did in the past.

It would feel wrong to make combo points be on character, as it would bare too much resemblance to the copy-cat Holy Power mechanic. Granted Holy Power isn't much fun nor well implemented for anything but Holy Paladin. At least to me that system only works for Holy, but that's off-topic.

Nice reasoning…
Who would think that rogues, who had the first version of combo points, should be the first one to get an update on that system?
At Blizzard apparently nobody. They revise the system and make it better and smoother, but leave the rogue with the outdated system. Sounds logical, no?
Of course it woud bare resemblance with holy power. Holy Power is a newer, smoother version of combopoints a v2.0 so to say, a newer version of the operating system.

Let us make a comparison:
You are at your job and are using a PC of 10 years old, with windows 2000 running on it, and a 256MB RAM stick as memory.
The guy next to you is running win7 with 4GB on a PC of last year.
How would you feel if the company buys a new PC (let us say: with win8, a brand new graphics card, SSD HDD and 8GB RAM), gives that PC to the guy next to you, and get rid of his old PC, while you are still doing your job on the 10y old PC?

I know the comparison is not perfect, but it sure shows how the rogue player base is feeling right now with the old Combo Point system: everyone around you has got a more recent PC while you are stuck with the old one. Yes there will be people that are nostalgic and like running Windows 2000, but most of us just want a new goddamn PC.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by ymirsson

If i have to build up like a champ, i want to hit like a champ.

This, so much this.

People can be whoever they choose to be on the internet - It is strange that so many people choose to be stupid.

every time I see someone mentioning the word "rouge" I get the urge to say "yes, we are overpowdered"...

I think there would be less of an issue with combo points on the target if .. you know.. playing a rogue would actually feel like executing a combo instead of just spamming one ability 2-4 times and then using another one.
If it was a bit like in Aion or, hell, even Warhammer Online, where using one ability enables the choice between serveral new abilities and depending on which one of those you use, enables the use of even further ones, depending on your prior choices.
You know, like an actual combo.

Even destruction warlocks have kind of a "combo point" system. Only that their finishers hit like a fucking train compared to ours.

Let us make a comparison:
You are at your job and are using a ATARI
The guy next to you is running win7 with 4GB on a PC of last year.
How would you feel if the company buys a new PC (let us say: with win8, a brand new graphics card, SSD HDD and 8GB RAM), gives that PC to the guy next to you, and get rid of his old PC, while you are still doing your job on the ATARI?

I know the comparison is not perfect, but it sure shows how the rogue player base is feeling right now with the old Combo Point system: everyone around you has got a more recent PC while you are stuck with the old one. Yes there will be people that are nostalgic and like running Windows 2000, but most of us just want a new goddamn PC.

fixed it for you

the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues :

-Rogues might still be dealing with the changes to combo points {2014}

Combo points tells you that your enemy's armor is broken enough for you to finalize your attack. New combo points means that you've opened another spot on your enemy's armor.

So, if I have enough "weaknesses" on a target in London, and I'm in New York, that allows allows me to Crimson Tempest the New York Sewer Gators, right?

Does your method explain slice and dice and recuperate? Or why fan of knives only builds such a weakness counter on ONE target, instead of all that are hit? Or for that matter why when I have 5 combo points on one target, turn to focus my attention on another for a moment, I forget everything I knew or had exposed or weakened about that first target?

I don't buy the in-kit description much, because the game doesn't stick to this supposed kit in ANY situation unless it inconveniences us. CPs on multiple targets? Would be in-kit, but NOPE. DK can't spend runes, which are on the weapon, when disarmed? NOPE, runes still spendable.