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I have problems with a lot of what "the other guys" are saying, doing, thinking, etc. especially on the health care issue right now.

But I am willing to admit it has pissed me off enough to where I've been embracing positions I would not, when the shoe is on the other proverbial foot.

We've all got a laundry list of things we think the other guys have wrong, do wrong, did wrong, etc.

Then we [should] all have things where we can say "okay you have a point."

Anybody who wants to kick them in feel free. Here are mine, on health care:

HEY RIGHT WINGERS YOU HAVE A POINT

- "Astroturf" is a clever and fun term, meaning an effort isn't really grass-roots, because it's encouraged and funded by industry... BUT I have no reason that looks the same TO YOU as to why outreach on one side is different from outreach on the other. The people directed supplied and instigated by industry and the likes of Beck and Limbaugh are legitimately angry. I disagree w/their tactics, and the source of their anger, and the depth of their knowledge, etc., but stipulate that you'd disagree with same were the shoe on the other foot.

So for me, right wingers, you have a point: "Astroturf" means one thing if I'm an old ex-activist on my side, talking to my side, and there's no reason you should "get" that.

As has been demonstrated the fact that these protests are orchestrated by the demogogues and lobbyists does not mean that the "grass roots" of "the other side" aren't sincere in their reactions.

- Dissent is patriotic: Hey right wingers, you have a point - dissent is patriotic. The stronger one's point, the more patriotic it is, of course; and when the point of dissent is destruction of the union itself, it is difficult to see where the patriotic part comes in (that is not, yet, the point of the health protests.) I will say that the form of that dissent, to me, seems antithetical to the premise that "nobody knows what's in this bill" ("...and if you try to tell them I'll chant over you...") But you cannot dictate the form of another's protest. You can kick them out of the meeting, and it will go on TV, etc.... but do they have the right to protest? Sure. Just be willing to do the time if you break the law (such as becomming violent,) or present a clear and present danger (for example, bringing a gun with you to see the president.) So far I'm not seeing arrests... that's interesting to me, but I think it's coming.

However all that said, HEY RIGHT WINGERS YOU HAVE A POINT -- dissent is patriotic. You have the right to protest; you don't have the right to be taken seriously. So the content of your actions and your "arguments" may ultimately have to improve... but that's not the same as saying "hey you can't do that!"

- Cost savings in the health care bills we're currently discussing may or may not make the bills revenue-neutral; my money -- surprise surprise, just like your money -- is on NOT. CBO says a couple hundred billion over 10 years... The administration says revenue-neutral. Hysteric bloggers and posters say a trillion, because trillion is the new billion nowadays. I say CBO is probably overstating the cost, and Obama is probably understating it and being optimistic. Time will tell.

So, HEY right-wingers, you have a point: I bet there will be a bill for this one way or another. I never trust something-for-nothing. If we get it it would be a nice surprise... but it would be one.

I'd like to think I'd see some reciprocation here. I know it's more likely I'll get excoriation for saying, hey, these are the things you guys are something like right about... drag up a few old posts where my posts were zealously partisan, you know the drill.

Well, if I've been zealous in other posts, I will say here right off the bat, positions change, people change, blah blah blah. I will say I've started to see in my own responses to what I see as the more ridiculous nuisance actions on the right, the attitudes I so abhored from the various Republican regimes.

Keep guns away from the president, and yes, you have the right to protest, up to the various local laws... to the extent it makes debate impossible, well, applicable laws apply. Do I care if you're busted for that? Nahhhh, because the debate's important too. (That's where your right to speak bumps up against everybody else's rights of speech and assembly.... "back in the day," all those who had any protesting or organizing in their pasts accepted such risks... so do you guys when you protest. Goes w/the territory.)

And that's what I've got for the night.

Anybody else want to acknowledge that our dug-in positions are by nature distortions... or should we just go back to the sh1t-slinging?

I have problems with a lot of what "the other guys" are saying, doing, thinking, etc. especially on the health care issue right now.

But I am willing to admit it has pissed me off enough to where I've been embracing positions I would not, when the shoe is on the other proverbial foot.

We've all got a laundry list of things we think the other guys have wrong, do wrong, did wrong, etc.

Then we [should] all have things where we can say "okay you have a point."

Anybody who wants to kick them in feel free. Here are mine, on health care:

HEY RIGHT WINGERS YOU HAVE A POINT

- "Astroturf" is a clever and fun term, meaning an effort isn't really grass-roots, because it's encouraged and funded by industry... BUT I have no reason that looks the same TO YOU as to why outreach on one side is different from outreach on the other. The people directed supplied and instigated by industry and the likes of Beck and Limbaugh are legitimately angry. I disagree w/their tactics, and the source of their anger, and the depth of their knowledge, etc., but stipulate that you'd disagree with same were the shoe on the other foot.

So for me, right wingers, you have a point: "Astroturf" means one thing if I'm an old ex-activist on my side, talking to my side, and there's no reason you should "get" that.

As has been demonstrated the fact that these protests are orchestrated by the demogogues and lobbyists does not mean that the "grass roots" of "the other side" aren't sincere in their reactions.

- Dissent is patriotic: Hey right wingers, you have a point - dissent is patriotic. The stronger one's point, the more patriotic it is, of course; and when the point of dissent is destruction of the union itself, it is difficult to see where the patriotic part comes in (that is not, yet, the point of the health protests.) I will say that the form of that dissent, to me, seems antithetical to the premise that "nobody knows what's in this bill" ("...and if you try to tell them I'll chant over you...") But you cannot dictate the form of another's protest. You can kick them out of the meeting, and it will go on TV, etc.... but do they have the right to protest? Sure. Just be willing to do the time if you break the law (such as becomming violent,) or present a clear and present danger (for example, bringing a gun with you to see the president.) So far I'm not seeing arrests... that's interesting to me, but I think it's coming.

However all that said, HEY RIGHT WINGERS YOU HAVE A POINT -- dissent is patriotic. You have the right to protest; you don't have the right to be taken seriously. So the content of your actions and your "arguments" may ultimately have to improve... but that's not the same as saying "hey you can't do that!"

- Cost savings in the health care bills we're currently discussing may or may not make the bills revenue-neutral; my money -- surprise surprise, just like your money -- is on NOT. CBO says a couple hundred billion over 10 years... The administration says revenue-neutral. Hysteric bloggers and posters say a trillion, because trillion is the new billion nowadays. I say CBO is probably overstating the cost, and Obama is probably understating it and being optimistic. Time will tell.

So, HEY right-wingers, you have a point: I bet there will be a bill for this one way or another. I never trust something-for-nothing. If we get it it would be a nice surprise... but it would be one.

I'd like to think I'd see some reciprocation here. I know it's more likely I'll get excoriation for saying, hey, these are the things you guys are something like right about... drag up a few old posts where my posts were zealously partisan, you know the drill.

Well, if I've been zealous in other posts, I will say here right off the bat, positions change, people change, blah blah blah. I will say I've started to see in my own responses to what I see as the more ridiculous nuisance actions on the right, the attitudes I so abhored from the various Republican regimes.

Keep guns away from the president, and yes, you have the right to protest, up to the various local laws... to the extent it makes debate impossible, well, applicable laws apply. Do I care if you're busted for that? Nahhhh, because the debate's important too. (That's where your right to speak bumps up against everybody else's rights of speech and assembly.... "back in the day," all those who had any protesting or organizing in their pasts accepted such risks... so do you guys when you protest. Goes w/the territory.)

And that's what I've got for the night.

Anybody else want to acknowledge that our dug-in positions are by nature distortions... or should we just go back to the sh1t-slinging?

Up to you guys,

PFnV

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Why does it have to be only right-wing or left-wing?? Why can't we go where we have never gone before and choose the BEST way, one that is fair for ALL?? I think we can do that, and I think everybody is yearning for it, as well; don't believe I'm alone on this.

For example, there are good reasons to provide health care to all -- PROVIDED they are CONTRIBUTING to society in a constructive way; those who choose to opt out of constructive contribution need to throw themselves onto the mercy of those who do contribute; humility and gratitude are operative attitudes in such cases.

There are also good reasons to have medical care that continues to improve, supported by on-going research and testing to find ways to make life better, more healthy, more enjoyable for longer periods of time. As we have learned so much in the past 50 or so years, "life-style" habits contribute greatly toward long-term health, so these healthy habits need to be emphasized and rewarded, even as unhealthy habits need to be discouraged. After all, EVERYBODY is affected for the good or for the bad by each of our actions; none of us are "islands" separate unto our solitary selves, we all impact on each other.

Why does it have to be only right-wing or left-wing?? Why can't we go where we have never gone before and choose the BEST way, one that is fair for ALL?? I think we can do that, and I think everybody is yearning for it, as well; don't believe I'm alone on this.
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There was an initial effort at bipartisanship, however the spokesmen of the party.. Beck, Limbaugh, Palin, Chuck Norris and Hannity did not want it to go that way, the end result is this mess...

are probably exactly the sorts of things that will discourage the behaviors (simultaneously helping support the system as a whole,) since big drinkers, smokers, and just plain lardasses cost us all money.

I can live with that even though I personally have to pay on two of the three above (hopefully I'll get it down to one of three in the near future.)

There was an initial effort at bipartisanship, however the spokesmen of the party.. Beck, Limbaugh, Palin, Chuck Norris and Hannity did not want it to go that way, the end result is this mess...

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Well, I don't think of any of the above as MY "spokesmen/women" for the Repub Party ..... just as I do not think the Olbermans, Maddows, Stewarts, and other far-out extremists of the Dem fold are "spokespersons" for that Party, either. Even Pelosi is where she is more from her seniority than from her views; I doubt if the Blue Dogs voted for her as Dem leader with much enthusiasm.

Anyhow, be that as it may, there is a need right now to reach beyond the historical polarizations and create a new sense of "we"-ness rather than "you"-ness or "they"-ness. The old paradigm of "left" and "right", Dem and Repub are really outdated and no longer beneficial, creates too much divisiveness, rancor, and bad blood. We need to get beyond all that junk.

I thought Obama might be headed in that direction, but he seems to have been hi-jacked by the hard left in the past 8 months, I'm sorry to say.

Well, I don't think of any of the above as MY "spokesmen/women" for the Repub Party ..... just as I do not think the Olbermans, Maddows, Stewarts, and other far-out extremists of the Dem fold are "spokespersons" for that Party, either. Even Pelosi is where she is more from her seniority than from her views; I doubt if the Blue Dogs voted for her as Dem leader with much enthusiasm.

Anyhow, be that as it may, there is a need right now to reach beyond the historical polarizations and create a new sense of "we"-ness rather than "you"-ness or "they"-ness. The old paradigm of "left" and "right", Dem and Repub are really outdated and no longer beneficial, creates too much divisiveness, rancor, and bad blood. We need to get beyond all that junk.

I thought Obama might be headed in that direction, but he seems to have been hi-jacked by the hard left in the past 8 months, I'm sorry to say.
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You minimize the left wing media as something inneffective, and now endorse that they have a big say in all of this... the right wing own the airwaves, and there are tons of folks who ingest their rhetoric hook, line and sinker. See the death panel horse crap..

All this sounds warm and fuzzy, but have yet to see any effort at true bipartisanship.. it is becoming more and more apparent that the folks at these townhall are being set up as tools for the medical insurance people.. who do not want change.

are probably exactly the sorts of things that will discourage the behaviors (simultaneously helping support the system as a whole,) since big drinkers, smokers, and just plain lardasses cost us all money.

I can live with that even though I personally have to pay on two of the three above (hopefully I'll get it down to one of three in the near future.)

PFnV

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Sin taxes have been around for long time -- and I'm sure they do help in many instances -- but I'm thinking of some more proactive measures, like eliminating ALL advertising for bad behaviors, for one thing (tobacco, alcohol, over-eating, free sex ... I know I'll get hammered for that last one around here :bricks:.... but anyway...) . Even all these ads for food, from McDonalds on through, ..... tell me they are not connected to the horrendous rise in obesity in America. Advertising is a very potent form of public education. Then, if the public and private school systems all joined in, I believe there would be a major improvement in people's behaviors, health, and community-ness.

You minimize the left wing media as something inneffective, and now endorse that they have a big say in all of this... the right wing own the airwaves, and there are tons of folks who ingest their rhetoric hook, line and sinker. See the death panel horse crap..

All this sounds warm and fuzzy, but have yet to see any effort at true bipartisanship.. it is becoming more and more apparent that the folks at these townhall are being set up as tools for the medical insurance people.. who do not want change.

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Whoever said the left wing media -- I call it the "dominant media culture" -- have been "ineffective"???? I have never said that. Quite the opposite, in fact. I have consistently railed against the dmc for being lethally lax on morals and equally malfeasant in advocating abuse of tax-payers' sweat, tears, and blood.

Whatever you see in these town hall meetings can easily be turned around and said about ACORN, the ENORMOUS amount of bail-out money deficit and national debt we have incurred, and the other irresponsible practices by today's and former Congresses. Continuing the blame game only feeds the monster that is strangling America. Need to get off of that immediately if we are to move forward.

If the Dem health plan is really as good as Obama and its other advocates say it is, we need a national seminar to show us HOW and WHY that could be true. We need THE DETAILS of the plan spelled out so we can see the KEY POINTS, what's new, what will be unchanged (if anything), and how it will impact all Americans.

We need patient, detailed transparency by those who are advocating this shape-shifting change in America's health care, or there will continue to be growing opposition.... that could be even more divisive. Which I, for one, don't want. If this change is really going to be better than what we currently have, the advocates should be able to sell it without too much trouble, but they need to be willing to listen to the questions and answer them patiently and caringly; otherwise, it will be a crap-storm.

The public doesn't want this bill. So it comes down to the Democrats. If they have the intestinal fortitude they can pass it. Will it risk another term, probably. What it boils down to is acting on the part of your constituency, we'll see. As far as media spin and swastikas go, I think the public is being mislead by both sides. If the government wanted to reform health care, the first issue or starting point would be tort reform, then move down the list and improve things. What the debate seems to be over is which special interest group gets served best. I am ready to hit the reset button on all these clowns.

Those people that have the 'audacity' to stand up at a town hall meeting and actually talk/yell back at a Democrat and question them about a bill that will effect their health and even their death, those people who want this bill read and re-read and then explained to the American people, those people who don't want this bill rammed down their throats by a President who seems to think the world should fall to their knees in his presence, those people who do not want the Obama Government to have anything whatsoever to do with their Doctors Their health or their death, those people are AMERICANS who want answers to their questions, those people don't want to be led around on a leash by the likes of the Grinning Pelosi Gang or our Lip Smacking Pompous Strutting President.

Those people who stand up and yell at the Slimey Grinning Politicians are only doing what Left Wing Liberal Protesters have been doing for years.

Obama, Now Hear This,
Let the people know what is in your bill, let ALL representitives of the people read your bill even if it takes another year, if your bill is so great you have nothing to fear the people will embrace it and re-elect you, why do you and your grinning cohorts want this bill rushed through, why......

ONWARD OLD WHITE BASTARDS, KEEP YELLING, SHOW THE GRINNING SCUMSUCKING POLITICIANS YOU ARE FREE AMERICANS, REMEMBER SHARPTON/JACKSON THEY ALWAYS GOT THEIR RESULTS BY YELLING AND SCREAMING AND WAVING THEIR SIGNS, WE SHALL OVERCOME BY THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY JESUS CHRIST, STAND UP AND YELL, MARCH ON WASHINGTON THATS THE WAY CINDY SHEEHAN DID IT, PUT TENTS UP, TIP CARS OVER, STEAL TV SETS, BREAK INTO LIQUOR STORES, STEAL GIN, SET YOUR GOD DAMN HOUSE ON FIRE, GOD WILLING WE WILL WIN, WATCH PICTURES OF THOSE AMERICANS BACK IN THE 60'S THEY'LL SHOW YOU HOW IT'S DONE, WATCH J0HN KERRY AND JANE FONDA, PETER PAUL AND MARY, PUFF THE MAGIC DRAGON, OH JESUS I'M GETTING SO F-CKING EXCITED I ALMOST FELL OFF MY CHAIR, GET OUT THERE AND YELL AT THEM DON'T LET THOSE SCUM MESS WITH YOUR DOCTORS, IT WAS GREAT WATCHING THAT FILTHY OLD PIECE OF
SH!T ARLEN SPECTER GET YELLED AT THE DIRTY OLD BASTARDS LIPS WERE QUIVERING HE PROBABLY PI$SED IN HIS DIAPERS, OH GOD.

The dirty democrats in congress want to force this Obama Crap on the people but they aren't going to use it THEMSELVES, if the Obama Health Crap is so good why isn't Tooth Sucker Pelosi & Rat Face Specter going to use it.........

The public doesn't want this bill. So it comes down to the Democrats. If they have the intestinal fortitude they can pass it. Will it risk another term, probably. What it boils down to is acting on the part of your constituency, we'll see. As far as media spin and swastikas go, I think the public is being mislead by both sides. If the government wanted to reform health care, the first issue or starting point would be tort reform, then move down the list and improve things. What the debate seems to be over is which special interest group gets served best. I am ready to hit the reset button on all these clowns.

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With you 100% on tort reform. When doctors are forced to pay $200,000 to $500,000 -- or more -- in annual premiums just to keep themselves from being knocked out of practicing for the rest of their lives, something is way screwed up. Totally messed up. Health care has become Big Business for lawyers and insurance companies.

With you 100% on tort reform. When doctors are forced to pay $200,000 to $500,000 -- or more -- in annual premiums just to keep themselves from being knocked out of practicing for the rest of their lives, something is way screwed up. Totally messed up. Health care has become Big Business for lawyers and insurance companies.
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Health care providers have become big business for lawyers and insurance companies as well...

If tort reform was the topic du jour, Obama would still be in for a rough ride..a lot of this is about the messenger, not the message.

With you 100% on tort reform. When doctors are forced to pay $200,000 to $500,000 -- or more -- in annual premiums just to keep themselves from being knocked out of practicing for the rest of their lives, something is way screwed up. Totally messed up. Health care has become Big Business for lawyers and insurance companies.

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Neither side is offering anything in the way of health care reform. It's a joke, they could clean up health care by getting rid of the managed care hmo crap and tort reform. But they don't. They could increase competition among current insurers, but no. They could create a co-op to cover those in between jobs or give the uninsured a major medical keeping them from medical hardship bankruptcy, but why would they.... There are lot's of little things they could do that would be good for all parties interested but they don't. One side says we gotta cram it through and the other side just says no. Can the American people get a do over on these clowns. Can we reinstall some sort of integrity to the media?

Health care providers have become big business for lawyers and insurance companies as well...

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You're just repeating what I just said. Maybe you just liked what I said so now you want to claim it as your own???

The issue is more about the message than the messenger; almost everybody wants the messenger to succeed.

No call for tort reform in Lithuania because the greedy ambulance chasers have not caught on here; hope they never do. Can't stand that crap. Only forces everyone else to pay more and more. Hate that selfish greed where a few prosper at the expense of the many.

Neither side is offering anything in the way of health care reform. It's a joke, they could clean up health care by getting rid of the managed care hmo crap and tort reform. But they don't. They could increase competition among current insurers, but no. They could create a co-op to cover those in between jobs or give the uninsured a major medical keeping them from medical hardship bankruptcy, but why would they.... There are lot's of little things they could do that would be good for all parties interested but they don't. One side says we gotta cram it through and the other side just says no. Can the American people get a do over on these clowns. Can we reinstall some sort of integrity to the media?

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When you're talking about what .... 17% of the national economy? you are dealing with a LOT of selfish interests, scam artists who have found ways to game the system in their own self-serving favors. Sucksville, and it's killing America. If the $5 million law suits for someone who spills coffee on themselves don't start getting thrown out of court, there will be no hope anymore. Learn Chinese and get ready for new owners. They won't put up with this crap.

are probably exactly the sorts of things that will discourage the behaviors (simultaneously helping support the system as a whole,) since big drinkers, smokers, and just plain lardasses cost us all money.

I can live with that even though I personally have to pay on two of the three above (hopefully I'll get it down to one of three in the near future.)

PFnV

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Sin taxes are BS. How about a stupidity tax instead? Lay them on any arsehole who bought a home he couldn't afford, or any c u next tuesday that maxed out her credit cards, and still got approved to buy a convertible. If not, how about a Lardarse Tax. Anyone that is fatter than Uncle Sam says is acceptable, gets taxed for each pound that they are overwieght? Why should I pay a "sin" tax, when I'm 5'8, 170 pounds, and work out 4-5 days per week? So cuz someone else is lazy, and irresponsible, I have to pay extra to enjoy a desert. Behavior controls.