Author
Topic: Speeding along local roads (Read 298276 times)

John Fraser

How I wish speeding was not still a problem. Sadly as bad as ever along Bluebridge road, which is my main concern and experience as I live along it.

Recently I walked by son home from nursery for the first time and experienced the School run more closely then ever. I was appalled by the consideration shown to pedestrians by mothers driving their children home. Waiting to cross Brookmans Avenue at Bradmore Green - always difficult when you have a toddler on one hand and a pre school on the other – three cars turned left in front of me – all mothers with children – and not one even looked at me, let alone saw me.

The biggest danger to children walking to school is cars driving other children to the same school. Given that most of the children going to Brookmans Park live in Brookmans or Whelam Green, why do so many children need to be driven?

Note from forum admin: This has only been edited because something went wrong with the title. Forum admin finger trouble to blame

« Last Edit: January 27, 2003, 03:09:02 pm by admin »

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Paul_Tennant

John Fraser is absolutely correct. Laziness is the biggest factor. Exercise and a short walk to school would considerably reduce the amount of cars on the road. We must also remember some drivers drive so slow it frustrates other drivers into doing silly things. I recently followed a driver from Colney Heath to the village at 18mph in the centre of the road. This is clearly just as bad as speeding drivers.

Are the two wires across the road, just inside the village by the bridge, to record the speed of cars entering the village?

If so, congratulations to who ever manged to get this survey organised. How do we all get to hear of the results and what action will it lead to in terms of helping to slow traffic to the speed limit? (Assuming of course that it does show too many cars over the limit at that point on Bluebridge Road - little doubt in my mind)

On the subject of speeding and bad driving.I have had two near misses crossing the road betwen the alley way and the Brookmans ( No I hadn't had a drink)In the first instance a driver ( okay female) cut across the service road from the main road to the station at high speed, she doesn't even know she just missed me.In the second incidence a taxi driver (male) put his foot down when cutting through the slip road to the station when he saw me crossing, his gesture concerning my eyesight earned him a lecture on the highway code. He still thinks that pedestrians only have right of way on a crossing and that in any other situation they are fair game. It is a dangerous spot as traffic can come from six directions and by the time you have looked all round quite a time elapses. No problem for reasonable speed but fatal when driving fast just to get to a train thats going to be late anyway.Any on else had near misses near this service road?regardsyou know who

When I am working, I am looking out over the speed restriction measures on Dixons Hill Road in Welham Green. (Where the traffic from the station has to give way to traffic going the other way). To be honest, it is an accident waiting to happen. Actually, accidents HAVE happened there - so far this year, I've seen two occasions when cars have 'pranged' each other, and it is a very rare day indeed when I don't hear the squeal of brakes outside.

I wouldn't wish that sort of traffic calming on anyone!

James

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James Bentall, Brookmans Park, Herts.I post in a personal capacity and not on behalf of North Mymms Parish Council

Wow John your views are so one-sided. Before you start no of course I don't want to see anyone injured in Brookmans Park. The fact remains that no-one has been and yet you still want a ton of cash to be spent disfiguring the village and inconveniencing everyone.I would like to clarify your views on something. Are you really saying that actual accidents with damage to property and probably injury to the motorists involved is acceptable ? Your moral argument - just to be really clear - is that it's OK for people to be involved in genuine recorded accidents provided some level of protection (not 100% protection of course) is provided against the "possibility" of accidents to other people??

The reason we have not had any fatalities is one of logistics.The fact is not many people walk in B.P.My near misses may be explained by the fact that I do therefore I am more likely to be a victim.We can all look the same way twice and get it wrong.In both my near misses I was aware of what was going to happen, the drivers were not. If I had been elderly or poor sighted?lets not all fall out,jet

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John_fraser

A person’s views are, by definition, one sided; protection is never 100%; It can only be against a possibility and it protects the car driver too. Four people died in pileups today. Two appear to be speed related.

I don’t see why measures have to disfigure the village. A hump on the bride entering Bluebridge Road would work, not disfigure and may even improve the look of the road.

Taking James’s description of a “prang” does not tie in with “probably injury to the motorists.” And I believe the calming measure in question was put in after a child died.

Interestingly enough I went to the cinema tonight – only logged on to find out the ages of Brad Pitt & George Clooney to settle an argument – and there has a government add stating that cars were the biggest killer of children between 12 & 16.

Nightrider

"On the subject of speeding and bad driving. I have had two near misses crossing the road between the alley way and the Brookmans.

In the first instance a driver ( okay female)…………….

…………driver (male) put his foot down when cutting through the slip road to the station when he saw me crossing, his gesture concerning my eyesight earned him a lecture on the Highway Code. He still thinks that pedestrians only have right of way on a crossing and that in any other situation they are fair game. It is a dangerous spot as traffic can come from six directions and by the time you have looked all round quite a time elapses. No problem for reasonable speed but fatal when driving fast………"

Let’s get a few facts straight about your post, our good humoured conversation and your lecture to me after your “near miss” the other day.

A – “driver (male) put his foot down” –

True. I put my foot down on the brake pedal to halt my vehicle. I did not accelerate towards you.

B – “when cutting through the slip road to the station” –

The road outside the shops is a two way road with no restrictions as to access. I usually take the second entry into Station Close but in this instance a car was waiting to turn right from Bradmore Green into Station Rd. My indicating a left turn and taking the first entry allowed the car to carry out its right hand turn without further any delay. This is the way I drive, reading situations and being courteous to other road users.

C - “his gesture concerning my eyesight” –

My gesture (pointing at my own eyes) was to notify you that you had not looked or performed any basic kerb drill, i.e. - looking left and right before stepping into the road from the pavement. I was not questioning the quality of your eyesight.

D - Quote - “I did not see you”

My reply - “That is quite obvious as you did not even look before you stepped into the road”

E – Quote – “I saw you coming down the road earlier and assumed you were going straight on”

My reply – “Never assume anything when crossing roads.”

F - “earned him a lecture on the highway code” –

Quote – “Don’t you know pedestrians have right of way on the road……..if you had run me over it would have been your fault………”

My reply – “I cannot see a Pelican or Zebra crossing anywhere around here. What makes you think that you can walk straight out into the road without looking and that if I run you over it is my fault? Please demonstrate this theory to me by waiting for a bus to come along the road and try walking out in front of it just like you have done here. I think you will find the end result is that you will be run over and killed”

G – “He still thinks that pedestrians only have right of way on a crossing and that in any other situation they are fair game.” –

I must be a failure at this form of hunting (even if I partake in it, which I do not) as in 26 years of driving I have never made contact with any pedestrian even when they have suddenly stepped out in the road in front of me.

I often stop to let any pedestrians, especially elderly people, people with children and prams or kids out on their own, to allow them to cross safely if there are pedestrian crossings nearby.

I do not know of any part of the Highway Code which states that when pedestrians start to cross the road they have right of way over traffic, except on Pelican and Puffin crossings when the lights are at red. I pray that this you do not have any involvement in the teaching of children the Green Cross and Highway Codes. As a kid I was taught “Stop, Look and Listen, Wait Until Nothing Is Coming, Cross, Keep Looking”

H – “No problem for reasonable speed but fatal when driving fast…” –

My speed was about 10/15mph as I had just negotiated a sharp left and right hand turn 20m previously.

I – “In the first instance a driver (okay female)…”

This is a patronising sexist comment.

I know of and see whilst on the road many good female drivers. I also know of and also see many bad male and female drivers.

J - I have had two near misses crossing the road…….

This was in no way near a near miss as I had noticed that you had not looked and was therefore already slowing down as you stepped out into the road 5 metres in front of me.

K – It is a dangerous spot and traffic can come from 6 directions….

By walking 20 yards towards the railway bridge before crossing, only two-way traffic would of been encountered. This is called elementary road sense.

Jet - As I say, our conversation and banter at the time was good humoured, yet your post portrays me as being a dangerously fast driver in the village. If this was true in this incident, unfortunately I would certainly have run you over given the 5m distance I had to stop in. As I was only doing about 15 mph, I would say that this was a safe speed to be proceeding in this situation and this was proved to be correct as no harm came to yourself.

If you ever see me driving my vehicle excessively fast or discourteously, please do not hesitate to post a report on this forum.

I am sad to read that you are making quite an exaggerated drama out of what was a very, very minor self inflicted incident.

Take care,

Regards,

Nightrider.

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John_fraser

“I do not know of any part of the Highway Code which states that when pedestrians start to cross the road they have right of way over traffic, except on Pelican and Puffin crossings when the lights are at red.”

Dear Nightrider,You miss the whole point, the spot is dangerous.If there was no problem, why the silly gesture.You cut through the service road which is there for access and parking not a short cut to the station!I was polite because I was in slight shock, try being in front of a car dramatically lurching to an exagerated halt with an albeit slight skid rather than being behind the wheel in your car.I crossed there to be as far away from the tee junction and bend as possible.So you were looking at your speedo, saw me, noted where I was looking all in 5 seconds? how clever. I bracketed my sexist comments to show that they were not sexist, just stating a fact!The whole point is that while looking in all directions in sequence one can make a mistake, a human error.If we want to boast, 30 years driving, half a million miles,no accidents, no convictions and not even a parking ticket.Next time I see you I won't be in shock you arrogant person.It might have been nothing to you but it bl**dy well frightened me.Remember there was no pavement to step of from it is all road and verge, next time you are there get out of your car and stand where I was, you will have a different attitude after that I would think.You don't get it do you, you either nearly knocked me down or there was no danger. In either instance your stupid gesture was uncalled for and one day will lead you into all sorts of problems if the wrong person is on the receiving end.Our conversation was good humoured for one reason.When I turned and walked towards you my first thought was to plant my fist into your grinning face, however being a civilised person I considered that as well as putting me in the wrong this would not help and that a chat would be of more use. If you remember my words were a little disjointed as quite frankly I was shaking from what I thought was a near missLets be frank you just wanted me to jump out of your way.Typical taxi driver who thinks he owns the road.Thats a taxiest comment for you.If I was in your position I would be ashamed of myself.Stitch that jimmyjet

Nightrider

A - That is why I was doing 15 mph approaching and entering the slip road.

Quote - You cut through the service road which is there for access and parking not a short cut to the station!

A - This is a complete falsehood. Please inform the local council to erect the appropriate road signs.

Quote - I was polite because I was in slight shock,

A - Would you not be of a polite disposition if not slightly shocked. By what you say you are not a polite person when "normal".

Quote - try being in front of a car dramatically lurching to an exagerated halt with an albeit slight skid rather than being behind the wheel in your car.

A - I did not skid.

Quote - So you were looking at your speedo and saw me, all in 5 seconds how clever.

A - I was in low to middish revs in second gear. After 26 years of driving I do not need to look at my speedo to know what general speed I am driving at. I can judge that from experience. I have negotiated the same route many times since you walked out in front of me and as a double check I have glanced at my speedo and every time a speed in the region of 15 mph is registered as I pass Unwins.

Quote - I bracketed my sexist comments to show that they were not sexist, just stating a fact!

A - So you admit they were sexist comments.

Quote - If we want to boast, 30 years driving, half a million miles, no accidents, no convictions and not even a parking ticket.

A - I am glad to hear this.

Quote - It might have been nothing to you but it bl**dy well frightened me.

A - I was not shaken up. I was in control of the situation.

Quote - Remember there was no pavement to step of from it is all road and verge, next time you are there get out of your car and stand where I was, you will have a different attitude after that I would think.

A - I'll inform the Council that the pavements have been stolen from Bradmore Green.

Quote - You don't get it do you, you either nearly knocked me down or there was no danger. In either instance your stupid gesture was uncalled for and one day will lead you into all sorts of problems if the wrong person is on the receiving end.

I wonder whether it is worth moving this particular part of the discussion on speeding back to another thread in this forum about whether Brookmans Park needs designated crossing areas, zebra or pelican or whatever?

There is a good thread (click here) which seemed, at one point, to be reaching the conclusion that such a crossing or perhaps two such crossings would be a good idea?

« Last Edit: March 30, 2002, 08:58:40 am by admin »

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The Brookmans Park Newsletter has been supporting the village and our local community since 1998 by providing free, interactive tools for all to use.

Dear Nightrider,I note your comments, So I undertook a survey of the area.The "slip road" consists of a double bend (chicane?) with a dog leg of straight 80 ft long.It took me (timed) 3 seconds to look all around and walk 10 feet.In that time at 15 mph you have travelled 66 ft, to stop takes a further 45 ft .Therefore your upper estimate of speed is wrong and was probably slower.Probable 12.5 miles per hour.You say between 10 and 15 miles per hour, do you not realise that your estimate after 26 years experience varies by 50 percent!I have to look around 360 degrees you are looking straight ahead.Because of parked cars you were on the wrong side of the road ( granted unavoidable) If a small person had stepped out from behind those cars you would not have been able to stop as you were apparently looking at me.All this is happening in three seconds! you are in your cosy car.I stopped and looked around because of the sound you made stopping which was a gritty skidding sound, why else would I turn around.The sight of your gesture was annoying to say the least and in that short time, ( part of a second) I was angry as I thought you were being rude.You say you stop to let people cross the road, why then not just moderate your speed and let me go, why the theatrical stop and gesture?I have no criminal convictions and have stopped more fights than you have had hot dinners. I can produce impecable references to my character. When someone gives you a sarky gesture do you not feel angry if only for a split second as I did. It is a normal human reaction which you would be aware of if you were qualified in human performance as I am.Do you not see what you have done, if you had not have stopped you would have continued at 12.5 mph across the front of the blind service road to the back of the shops.The result of a pedac to a driver can be no charge, driving dangerously, driving without due care and attention and god forbid causing death or manslaughter.The penalaties can be nil rising to 10 years.Notwithstanding that a friend of mine killed a pedestrian walking on the wrong side of the road at night on an unlit road. The police tottally exonerated him, however he will never be the same man again.The minimum damages for a victim who has no dependants is around £7K. Excluding any injuries.Let us all be aware of the consequenses.It would be nice if you said "sorry that I frightened you jet" But it takes a big man to say sorry, which is what I said to you when you led me to believe that you had nearly hit me.Would you like to supply your full details and we will let the police, local authority and your employers decide on whether you have the temperement to do your job.Brookmans has asked that this forum is not turned into a medium for personal vendettas and accordingly I will not comment further on this subject.By the way the pavement, what there was of it ,was being repaired and could not be walked on. In any case there was no pavement only grass verge from where I stepped from. Go and look!If you ever have to go to court I would advise that you take the fifth amendment, because you have written enough for a conviction. How does premeditated putting someone in fear of their life sound?Think about it and lets all learn.My irony about sexist and taxiest behaviour was obviously lost on you.The moral for the day is " when you have dug yourself into a hole stop digging"As an aside I saw a small child run straight out of their house and across Bluebridge Road, without looking.Cars travel at 70 mph down this road 210 ft total stopping distance. Thank God no cars were around.

Dear Nightrider,I will go against my post and post again.I did not see Brookmans letter untill after I had written.We are so much alike it is frightening.would you like either a pint in the pub on a non driving day, a fight ( choose your weapons I am qualified in karate, fencing, shooting and tidddleywinks) on the green or a free aerobatics experience in the summer to test your bottle.Go on lets be men and shake hands for the sake of road safety.Would you have made that gesture in Tottenham High Road on a Saturday night? I know the answer!No reg. details I see!jet

Nightrider

I'll take you up on your offer of having a pint (or two) in the pub, (I interpret this as being The Brookmans).

We can PM and arrange details for a Meet.

However, I would not like to participate in any form of fighting that you have suggested, as I am as good as a Saudi pickpocket at Tiddleywinks and my judo suit is in the wash.

I agree with your proposal, let's put this episode to good use. We can discuss the problems of cars speeding through the village and a few other relevant topics and I am sure that positve results will result from our meeting together.

I'll PM you soon,

Take care,

Regards,

Nightrider.

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John_fraser

I live on Bluebridge Road and feel too many cars travel down it at dangerous speeds. I think something should be done before there is a fatality. Others feel the issue is “over stated”, point out that there is no record of a serious accident on the road and worry that any measures would detract from the look of the village.

Previously I suggested traffic calming measure “sympathetic” to the look of the village – turning the bridge back into a humpback bridge and/or adding roundabouts to the end of The Gardens and Bluebridge Avenue.

So, should we have traffic calming measures on Bluebridge Road?

« Last Edit: April 01, 2002, 09:48:17 am by admin »

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John_fraser

Now that the spat between Jet & Nightrider - hard to belive someone with that monica was doing under 20 :-) - has been put to bed, I've created a poll to ask if we should have traffic calming on Bluebridge Road.

It would be better if folks could vote against the full range of possibilities (there may be a longer list than the above). At the moment I'm finding it tough to find an option I really want to vote for ....

It would also be interesting to have a vote on zebra crossings. Not sure if this should be separate or within this vote; possibly the latter because it would directly contribute to lower speeds?

I just wanted to comment on my previous post which is lost way up the chain somewhere now.

My point was and still is that it is not reasonable to put a different value on a motorists well-being vs a pedestrians well-being. The reasons being obvious I hope. The implications being that as soon as you or I get into a car our life suddenly has less value - which of course is patently rubbish.

I was and am saying nothing about whether any measures are or are not required. I am simply pointing out that if the chicane in Welham Green is causing car accidents then we are just trading one problem for another. It is well and good to say it was put there because a child was killed/injured but if the solution just takes away one problem to replace it with another then it isn't a proper solution.

Given that virtually all of the pedestrians of BP are also motorists then we are talking about the same people at all times anyway. We need a solution that fits all. Otherwise the next thing that happens is that people will be complaining about the noise of cars braking, cars in gardens, the amount of glass on the road etc etc

Anyway I drifted off the point there a bit. My key point is you can't put a different value on a motorists property and life than you do on a pedestrians. I accept totally that an accident is more likely to injure a pedestrian and therefore they need more protection. However this has to be balanced against the likelihood of an accident in each scenario. Also the fact that - whether we like it or not - roads are for cars and pavements are for pedestrians; it is impossible to protect against the danger of roads without actually shutting them completely !! Which is an option I suppose......

(Note from Brookmans: A line at the end of this thread suggests it has been edited by me. The content hasn't I just deleted a load of white space at the end to make the page look nicer )

« Last Edit: April 02, 2002, 05:13:58 pm by admin »

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John_fraser

Fair question! I probably should have given it more thought but it was late and I was a little drunk.

By “sympathetic” I mean things that would not detract from the visual appearance of the village. So I would not include:- Speed cameras - which have to be obvious to work- Humps – other than a hump back bridge- Whelham Green style solutions- Rubble strips

All of the above would be better than nothing, but I think we could do better:- Build posts like those on Mymes Drive but position them to restrict the road a little- Roundabouts - hump back bridge- Even the occasional police car parked on the road!

I'll give this until the weekend and maybe post another pole with a range of options.

John_fraser

I don’t put a greater value on a pedestrian’s life. That would clearly be stupid as well as hypocritical. But I don’t see how I can be accused of doing this.

What you say is true: In WG they have swapped one problem for another. Cars were travelling fast enough to cause fatal accidents; Now they are being slowed down but in the process drivers are being aggravated enough to have low speed collisions i.e. we have swapped damage to life for damage to property. I am happy to accept that. It is a question of life verses property.

“Pavements are for people and roads are for cars” is clearly wrong. Firstly you won’t get far without crossing a road; secondly there have been two accidents on the road in the last year to my knowledge where a car has left the road – i.e. would have killed a pedestrian; thirdly why are so many cars parked on, and blocking, the pavement forcing pedestrians onto the road?

Although it is not possible to protect against every danger we can protect against some. If we take the view that keeping death and injury as low as reasonably possible is important, then I think we can – and should - do more. You seem to talk of a “balance” and finding “a solution that fits all” but have made no suggestions for any changes. Do you think the problem does not exist? Or do you have a constructive way to have safer roads without damage to the “environment” of the village or drivers?

Thanks for a thoroughly entertaining series of posts regarding your recent 'near-miss'. We all enjoyed reading this at my workplace, Brookmans Park is gaining an image as the spiritual home of Victor Meldrew characters everywhere.

I can't help feeling that neither of you want to let the other have the last word... Hopefully you can put your differences to rest over a few beers.

Given no accidents involving injury in BP to my knowledge (ie it is NOT an accident blackspot) then I am not prepared to accept that damage to property is an acceptable cost to provide partial protection against the "possibility" of injury to people. My view would be different if this was an accident blackspot.

Furthermore you are assuming that injury to motorists will not occur; also that consequent injury to pedestrians will not occur as a result of traffic control measures.

So what you really seem to be saying is that damage to property + probably minor injury to motorists + probably minor risk of injury to pedestrians is an acceptable cost to provide protection against the minor risk of probably major injury to a pedestrian. This also against the cost of any measures imposed plus the major likelihood of the village being disfigured + the minor risk of people being inconvenienced and/or upset by the other consequences of the measures imposed.

If that is what you are saying then I don't agree but I'm not sure it's useful to debate any longer.

You asked what my suggestions might be. The bottom line from my point of view is :- I don't think this problem merits any action but I can see and accept that others would have a different view on this- the reason why I don't think it merits action is because of the cost-benefit/risk argument above (ie not a blackspot, drawbacks outweigh benefits etc)- I think there are other more pressing needs for the money; for example the state of the roads, particularly Bradmore Way, is appalling. Also the whole parking and circulation problem around the village centre which is actually one of the threads of John's problem satement and has nothing to do with speeding itself- I think we could all find something that we didn't like about the environment we live in. If we act on everything then that environment will become regulated and oppressed to an unbearable degree. I'm not saying people should be allowed to whizz around the roads at will, just that we have to make reasoned cost-benefit decisions and in this case I think it's too much. I remember crossing far worse roads as a child and while this was probably too far the other way the fact is we took the necessary measures to proceed safely in the circumstances presented. Cars aren't flying off the roads in BP - far from it - and (light blue touch paper) the words mountain and molehill spring to mind. The only measure that is truly going to solve the problem really is pedestrianising the village - how far do we think we need to go !!?? - it's worth remembering that only a few folks submit thoughts to this page and it is merely a vehicle for sometimes vigorous debate between a handful of people who have the time. With regard to walking in the village - which is what this thread is really about (see below) - then most of the residents simply get on with it and you can see them everyday with their children etc happily making their way about without incident or remark- it is interesting this thread is about speeding. It's just like the Govt approach : focus on speeding (which IS part of the issue of course) but completely ignore the equal if not greater problem of poor or careless driving. Point being that traffic control measures may not have as much of an impact as you would wish

OK now I've got that off my chest let me be constructive instead

Realistically there is a finite amount of cash available (if any...) and there is a finite amount of space. There are also various factors to take into account :a) long straight run into village from S which acts to encourage speedb) 90 degree bend into village from N which acts to discourage speedc) not enough space for roundabout solution I suspectd) unlikely to get more than one zebra put ine) parking and manouvering problems f) difficulty crossing road nr chip shop

Seems to me a set of small measures suitably spaced would be the most effective and acceptable.

plus maybe :- another zebra opposite Windsorsor- do something with the road layout Eg close short stretch of road Windsors sits on and widen road past Statons and library (this would provide a single village green, reduce confusion around fish and chip shop and allow pedestrians to proceed more safely as there would be continuous pavement around the whole new green. Or maybe someone can think of a better road layout?

My thinking with the above is that we could achieve a general sense of the need to proceed more carefully while at the same time giving other benefits eg zebra crossing but without the need for penalising existing considerate residents with draconian or unattractive measures.

(Note from Brookmans: A line at the end of this thread suggests it has been edited by me. The content hasn't I just deleted a load of white space at the end to make the page look nicer )

Wow, what a great read all of this was. People who don't visit this forum do not know what they are missing. But above all, how great people can have their say and then shake hands and make up. (I'd love to be a fly on the wall when you have your drink:)

I haven't really lived in the area long enough to know about all the speeding problems and as yet have not encountered any. However, the villiage it self can be a real nightmare, espeically around school drop off times.....cars are coming at all directions. Would be a possible good idea to make it one way?