Now, just before all you TBM lurkers start feeling pride at being so unique and
"peculiar" (in the Petrine sense), or glorying in
"persecution", I ought to point out that there is nothing unique
about any genuine cult being a death cult, for in the name of life, every
single one of them ends up worshipping death in their own way: Islam, Nazism,
the J Dubs, the Jonestown people, the Solar Temple people, the Heaven's Gate
people, the Mormons, all of them. I might say that if anything is sacred,
life is, and therefore, all of those cults constitute the ultimate in
blasphemy, Mormonism not excepted.

That Mormonism is a death cult in the end is true in many senses, broad and
specific. For example, the ultimate sacrament ritual, symbolized by the
partaking of the bread and water, is the sacrifice of Christ's body as a
means of uniting all (worthy) humankind together, and humankind with God. And
as Paul makes clear (in an almost gleeful kind of way), each human being must
re-enact Christ's sacrifice not just through taking the bread and water, but
through the annihilation of his/her own humanity, that is, the
"crucifixion of their own flesh" (see, e.g., Galatians 5, Romans 6,
etc.). While Mormonism seeks to sidestep the blatantly macabre aspects of the
Catholic focus on crucifixion and death by cheerily offering up glib slogans about
worshipping the “risen” Christ versus the slain Christ and refusing to place
crosses on its churches, at its core it posits the same things as Catholicism
and all Christianity does: there was once a golden age of innocence and
virtue - the human race fell - it is only through the human sacrifice/deicide
of Jesus of Nazareth that we can begin to overcome natural filthiness.

But Joseph’s cult, as in so many other ways, takes this to a whole new level
of weirdness and invidiousness. We have as Mormons the obligation of
murdering all those parts of our humanity which can’t in the end squeeze into
the church’s unusually constricting mould of the “ideal” male and female. In
other words, cult righteousness equals de-humanization. The “natural man is
an enemy to God”. Feminists must become Mollies. “Los machos” must give up
the motorcycle tours, Metallica, and Maxim magazine, and Ned Flanderize
themselves. Those with some sense of autonomy must overcome their
“rebelliousness” and submit every last aspect of their lives to priesthood
“authority”. Homosexuals must become heterosexuals, or at least, are required
to spend their lives killing off what now appears to be an innate proclivity.
Males and females who would rather remain childless must overcome this
“wicked tendency”, and reproduce. Those who see wisdom in waiting to marry,
see wrongly - they must marry when they are young. They don’t know what is
best for them.

Social liberals must become social conservatives. Those women who think they
might be more attractive with two earrings in an ear, those men who fancy
tattoos, must not indulge themselves. We must kill off our own tastes, our
own innate predispositions, our own feelings and longings and ambitions and
dreams and conclusions - our own conscience - everything that makes us the
miracles we are. Each one of us is a “self” - and we must kill off that self.
We must turn ourselves into fodder for the machine, just to keep it going. In
a cult, no one is an end in and of his/herself. No one is a "fellow
human being, period" - we are all means, means to some end. We are not
humans to be loved and embraced just as we are; we are “people who have yet
to achieve what they should”. Evaluation of how far we have, and everyone
else has to go to achieve whatever end we imagine each should be achieving,
then becomes the prism through which all social life is experienced. In
allowing this, we cut ourselves from the ability to feel that
“philanthropos”, or brotherly/sisterly love, which was what the whole cult
was supposed to be about in the first place. But they never are in the end
about that, because they are all frauds. In the end, they are about the
destruction of all that could be considered humanity, since the realization
of the selfish ambitions and stupid delusions of the cult leader is
completely incompatible with the existence of humanity, with the preservation
of human nature. Humanity must be annihilated.

Once I longed to be a martyr for the church (in Argentina, on my mission).
When that didn’t pan out and I returned home, I myself undertook to effect
just that demolition of my own uniqueness and character in its service. I
hardened myself against embarrassment when asked in public about polygamy or
temple garments or man’s eventual deification. I censored my thoughts, my
words, my own feelings. I read the Heber C. Kimball and Jedediah Grant
sermons in which they proclaimed proudly that they loved the prophet more
than they had ever loved any of their wives. They announced that any wife of
theirs who would disobey the prophet would be ejected from their families. I
knew that was where my own devotion to the church had to be. I had taken a
vow of consecration; I had to be willing to sacrifice anything - all my
money, my children, my wife, my life - for the cult. And guess what? I made
it, to a surprising degree. I myself, just as all others have, became the
happy agent of the destruction of my own humanity. So, my children weren’t
“my children” so much as they were “future priesthood holders”, “future Eagle
scouts”, “future missionaries”, “future married-in-the-temple people”, etc.
They were everything but what they themselves, through the miraculous course
of nature, were: unique, breathtakingly complex wonders of creation, valuable
in their own right, HUMAN BEINGS whose worth had NO tie to their future
“progress” within some sterile, sicko sect piggybacking on to Christianity
while demonizing every other manifestation of it in its founding documents.
When I looked at my children, I saw them in a way as expressions of my own ego.
They would not fail. They would become righteous Mormons. That to a large
degree was why I loved them. They were means to the end of me ultimately
believing that I'd been a fantastic father, evidenced by my children having
become just as much slaves to the thing as I had become.

Light outside the cult illuminates, in the most flattering way, all those
cliches we used to laugh at so much, or in some cases, used to Mormonize.
“Each one of us is a miracle”, “Everyone is special”, “All we have is each
other”, “Love makes the world go round”, even lifetime criminal Rodney King’s
much-mocked question: “Why can’t we all just get along?”. That now seems like
the greatest question ever asked, and one we probably ought to be searching
out an answer for. (And no, the answer is not, “because we are not all
Mormon, or Jehovah’s Witness, or Muslim”, etc.). Questions like “How do we
get John and Mary to better serve the church?” (that is, “how do we get them
to more fully annihilate their natures so as to further the ends of my
cult?”) have now, deo gratias, been replaced by questions which do NOT rest
on the completely fallacious assumptions of cult fanatisicm (like the
infinite malleability of human nature, absolute knowledge via feelings, the
solution for all life’s problems is global conversion to Mormonism, etc.).

Once we begin to see that, really, all we do have is each other, and that the
ceiling of our own mortal consciousness prohibits clear answers about the
purpose of life, who or what might be running the universe, etc., we begin to
ask questions like, “How can we live so as to get along better with each
other? How do we best alleviate suffering? How do we most effectively bless
the lives of our fellow human beings? How can I help leave the world a better
place than I found it?”. What is so peculiar now is that it is precisely
THOSE questions which yield the best chance of leading to answers which will
truly help life to flourish, to be lived to its full potential. It is the
insatiable demands and mean, cheap, petty questions of cults based on claims
which have NO evidence to support them, like those of Mormonism, which seem
to do the most damage to life.

How can that be? In the name of life, they destroy life; in the name of the
ideal, they grind you up, and then leave you behind like so much dross. And
God help you if you ever reveal that you have come to believe that the Mormon
project is misguided, and based on Joseph’s original deceptions. Daniel
Peterson has devoted his entire life to the church. What would happen if he
ever expressed doubt? His fellow colleagues would first express “sadness”,
and then go about the job of smearing his character, metaphorically killing
him. They'd have to, to keep themselves in that psychological state upon
which we grew so dependent. It wouldn't matter if he was right - in fact, the
more correct he was, the more vicious the attacks would be.

In the end, the church doesn’t care about any life except its own. It views
as its mortal foe every aspect of humanity, which it cannot control. In fact,
in this sense, the entire cosmos, the whole structure of reality, is
“anti-Mormon” (since Mormonism is out of alignment with what it purports to
be synonymous with: truth and reality) and so we should cease to be surprised
when the church murders historical facts for Joseph, as it does on its new
website, murders archaeological and genetic and linguistic facts for the Book
of Mormon, murders - through all the anti-depressant prescriptions handed out
by LDS Social Service headshrinkers - the conscience of women who keep
sensing there is something wrong, or who acknowledge to themselves that they
are miserable, etc., etc.

And of course, in the end, it doesn’t even really care at all when its
missionaries are literally murdered for it. The church ignored the many death
threats issued by Bolivian terrorists against Mormon missionaries; it ignored
the bombs left at La Paz chapels; it ignored the firebombing; and left the
missionaries there in La Paz. Then, after the assassination of Elders Ball
and Wilson, the church left its missionaries there just the same as always,
just as they had after the warnings started coming in. And Hinckley went to
Wilson’s funeral, once his bullet-riddled body arrived back in Utah in a
coffin, and said, “It doesn’t really matter how long we live in this life”,
and then left, accompanied by his bodyguards.

The Mormon church, for all its shiny, happy photo models, can only survive
when all that we would associate with being truly human, and all we would
associate with reality, is killed off. It must eradicate to stay alive, and
the sooner I cease hearing about grown men cowing to the threats of their
wives and agreeing to keep quiet, when their children are being brainwashed
and having all that is potentially most unique and valuable about them sucked
out of them, just to serve Joseph's cult, the better. The truth deserves
better than that, and so do our children, for Mormonism is a cult and a
fraud, and a million smiles and barbecues and fake friends won't change that.

Just my 200 cents,

T.

Subject:

'....and then left, accompanied by his body guards.'
Powerful image.

Date:

Aug 09 16:01

Author:

a thought

Amazing that these men can be so callous with someone
else's son. I shudder to think of men who think so little of this life
leading the youth into longing for the next life.

Perfect recipe for cult driven atrocities. These young men died because of a
myth and a con. It is for this very reason that many of us cannot leave the
church alone. It is a destructive force in disguise.

Thanks for this Tal. There are many great contributors to
this Board, and in my opinion, you are one of the best! This will go into my
favorites file to read again and again!

Subject:

Re: Mormonism, the death cult

Date:

Aug 09 16:51

Author:

PtLoma

Your conclusion reminds me of an (in)famous line from the
play "Sister Mary Ignatius Explains It All For You", which I saw in
the early 1980s in Los Angeles with Lynn Redgrave in the starring role.

A group of former students comes back to confront their 1960s parochial
school teacher. One is a single mother (of two brilliant scholarship
students), one got a divorce (but raised three kids single-handedly after
hubby bailed), one is gay, and only one is still a practicing Catholic,
though he beats his wife, is an alcoholic, and abuses his kids.

I've long believed that the church crushes the
individuality out of its members along its road of self perpetuation.

I did not pursue a career path based off of my talents and interests because
I felt that it would be to 'worldly' and wouldn't be conducive to my LDS
worldview.

Members are regularly given callings in their ward or branch not because they
are talented or interested in doing that particular thing, but because that’s
what the church TELLS them to do.

Right on, Tal.

O

Subject:

Re: we can't forget...

Date:

Aug 09 18:13

Author:

tacochip

that, while the church promotes the death of the self, it
also overtly promotes physical death as well. Danites, MMM, blood atonement,
theocratic wars, and support for Christian Zionist military mass murder going
on today.

Subject:

Re: Mormonism, the death cult

Date:

Aug 09 21:53

Author:

ivcarol

To Tal:I am a nevermo that lurks the board, I have a dear
friend that is a Molly, and I am piling up information to prove to her what a
cult she is involved with.. ANYWAY, Thank you so much for your post, tis'
inspired and tremendously insightful, and will make a wonderful addition to
my argument. Thanks again. Best wishes always.

Subject:

It's been hard to find time to post anything here
lately,

Date:

Aug 10 04:38

Author:

Latter Daze

but I can't let this one go. Tal, you are 100% correct and
this post really does deserve its own archive. Thanks for putting what has
been in my head (and apparently everyone else's) up on this board! There's
some stuff that I would add to it but since I have to get up way freakin'
early I had better get some sleep and stew over it later.

I also have one question I wanted to ask you the other day. How did your
older children react to your family quitting Mormonism? Did any of them rebel
or experience any kind of Morg-induced identity crisis similar to the stuff
we adults went or are going through?

LD/Jennifer (still trying to figure out who she is)

Subject:

Mr. Tal Bachman squares off against those who
"cower" to our TBM wives...

Date:

Aug 14 00:40

Author:

Noggin

Well, Tal. Tell me how you really feel.

"...and the sooner I cease hearing about grown men cowing to the
threats of their wives and agreeing to keep quiet, when their children are
being brainwashed and having all that is potentially most unique and valuable
about them sucked out of them, just to serve Joseph's cult, the better. The
truth deserves better than that, and so do our children, for Mormonism is a
cult and a fraud, and a million smiles and barbecues and fake friends won't
change that..."

It can't be said any other way. The message is clear. There is no hidden
double secret code meaning in that post that low blood sugar levels induced
by fasting or... even prayers to a dreamed up god will reveal to me
differently.

If one values family and is not willing to make a stand even if it means staring
at the great divide of divorce for the exmo moral imperatives, you aren't
worthy here. At least, quit posting about it because Tal is growing weary of
hearing about it. Those in the cute and "put up with" Faux-mo
status are not welcome...

...the truth deserves better than that

"The Truth" has become an entity unto itself that I must serve now?
I serve the cohesiveness of family within the four walls in my home. I admire
that you and your wife were able to leave together. It is a reflection of
your marriage. Not everyone is that fortunate to have

1. the level of communication you and your wife enjoy
2. trust in each other to that degree
3. a spouse who will even listen to the truth

I lauded you this morning when you shared your story about how your wife
reacted to your bombshell. I guess you do not realize that what transpired
between your wife and yourself was rare. I still applaud it, celebrate it,
but don't demean others who are in different scenarios.

When the three conditions I listed above exist, concessions must be made for
the marriage to work. Some major ones and some minor ones. I can't expect you
to grasp this as you are not living it like I am.

Get some perspective, Mr. Bachman.

So, if I hear (oops... read) you correctly, the concessions made to a wife
who puts up with my new religious world view (or lack thereof) are now seen
as acts of "Cowering"? Get real. Coming out and calling a man
basically spineless for holding together what he can in his life is... I am
too floored to grab the appropriate adjective presently. Tal, you must have
spoken out of the heat of the moment. Regardless, you do feel that way. Eric
K did archive your thread indicating that he too supports the view. You are
the keynote speaker at the exmo conference. Just try to avert your eyes if it
bothers you that much.

Don't get me wrong. It is an excellent point. But dammit, there is not much I
can do about it. Getting out, resigning and never going back to the chapel
that reeks of stale Cheerios will push my marriage over the cliffs! Many in
my situation do not pay tithing, do not support the church activities, hold
low level callings if any at all, do not attend the temple, do not wear
garments, and attend sporadically to help with kids in church. We protest in
our own significant ways.

Holy freaking ticking time bombs batman.

As if my situation grates on the likes of other humans here. Wow. I did not
know it was so. I am half way thinking as to whether I should apologize for
being the cause for annoyance by seeking lifelines in my posts on this board
as I can. Throw me a bone, dude. Where, then, do you suggest is the
appropriate place for the likes of me to go for moral support? FAIR LDS? My
bishop? My TBM father? My TBM uncle? My TBM sisters? They all think I am nuts
for being outspoken about the church! It is all about perspective, Tal.

When you see my "Noggin" handle... just don't click on it.

Noggin
(Mike)

Subject:

I don't think Tal meant to offend anybody

Date:

Aug 14 01:03

Author:

anon

Everybody's situation is different. I am glad there are a
mix of opinions and people here. It makes people who may be in Noggin's and
others situations feel more welcome. This board is to support everyone hurt by
mo-ism. So I hope you don't quit posting. Either of you (noggin or tal
bachman). I happen to enjoy both your opinions on things.

Subject:

Re: I don't think Tal meant to offend anybody

Date:

Aug 14 02:09

Author:

Emma

I agree. I don't think he was that serious about it.
Atleast I hope not. Tal should realize that having insiders in the Morg is a
good thing. We will be the ones to educate the others in our own little way.
My children will know all the real church history and will be able to teach
the other children. I would think more exmormons would applaud us that live
the double life because we will be the ones that TBM's might listen to. Once
you are full on Apostate they will turn their backs on us and not listen to a
word we say. Even though I live the double life I don't pay my tithing, I
dont bear my testimony, I don't teach false history, and I don't give talks
or do anything that causes me to lose myself and true feelings.
I do this to keep my family together, but also to educate others in my own
sly way. I am also trying to keep my friends that I love and extended family
happy.

Subject:

I can't claim any nobility for standing up and walking
away

Date:

Aug 14 02:20

Author:

Nightingale

Given that I was a non-American non-BIC short term mouthy
convert, the church was pretty happy to see the back of me, it seemed. I
haven't been too vocal about defending "truth" or anything, partly
because I have no creds as a feminist, gay or so-called intellectual, lol,
and I have no name recognition either.

I didn't have some big epiphany and then start proclaiming truth from the
mountaintops. I didn't wade through a pit of rattlesnakes or a pool of
gators. I didn't have to face the prospect of losing my job, my friends, my
spouse, my family.

No sirree. My exit needed no strategy nor courage.

I just plain couldn't stand to sit through one more Mormon SM.

So I didn't.

There have been few negative consequences (lost some TBM friends) and many
positive ones (like making friends here).

But I can't really say it's easy and everybody else should just walk away
like I did. Because fortunately for me, my family was on the outside of the
mo door. That is not the case for so many exmos.

Each to his own, in his own time.

This is not to say I don't enjoy a darn good rant about standing up for truth
though. Cuz I do. :)

Subject:

Sometimes theoretical statements are made without
thought for the flesh and blood in amongst the pixels

Date:

Aug 14 02:05

Author:

Nightingale

I admit I often have an emotional reaction when somebody
makes negative comments about converts, cuz I happen to be one (formerly).

Hey, it's hard enough to defend a decision to dive into a Mormon font as an otherwise
rational and high functioning adult, without reading posts about "low
quality" people being the only ones desperate or stupid enough to
convert to Mormonism.

If I read such comments, I feel a variety of negative reactions and maybe get
all defensive and feel like I need to write a post to stick up for myself
(and maybe I should, to try and help people see the other side of the story).
If/when I do respond, they will often say well, they didn't mean *me* or
yeah, maybe not *all* converts are "losers" or whatever.

My point is that it's easy to make a statement in *theory* or a sweeping
generalization that falls apart when you apply it to an actual living
breathing human, especially as you find out more about their unique
situation.

It's easy to just throw the word "spineless" around (I see it a lot
on this board) but if someone speaks up to explain their circumstances, most
people would likely say "Well, yeah Noggin, *you're* not spineless.

The other aspect that is ever-present around here is that many of us are in
flux and are growing and changing. We could have a really strong opinion
about something one week and totally change our minds the next. Exiting
Mormonism can be a very slow process. For many of us it takes some time to
move away from black/white towards all the greys and to be comfortable there.

I feel compassion for everybody on all sides of everything and think that
generally people do the best they can at the time. There are many ways to
fight a battle; we have to each figure out what works best for our individual
circumstances.

I think it's great that you are willing to talk about your situation and
state your opinions; we can all learn important things from seeing another's
viewpoint.

I think you're in exactly the right place to get the understanding and moral
support you need in your Mormon trials. There's no one right way to do it - I
think that is something most of us can agree on.

From all the posts I've read from men in the compromise mode like you,
Noggin, I have seen that the ones who take it slow and are able to keep their
marriage together, whether their wife leaves with them or not, are usually
glad they chose the course they did.

I must say that as a new convert, when I first heard the "fake it til
you make it" mantra re giving "testimony" I was shocked
(because it's such a major LIE) and often had the thought as I looked around
SM, "what if *everybody* is faking it and this whole room is full of
people who don't even believe what they preach?" *Very* spooky feeling.
And maybe it was true?

So it would be easy for me to say what each one of them *should* have done
(because I would have been really ticked to know that NOBODY believed
ANYTHING) but who can say what someone else should do? I think we can usually
only say what worked for us.

Subject:

I appreciated Noggin's post as much as Tal's...

Subject:

I just re-read the thread in question in its own
context

Date:

Aug 14 02:34

Author:

Nightingale

I get the impression the writer is directing his ire at
the Mormon church and not at the individual non-believing male church-goers.
I "hear" him saying the sooner that situation, caused by the Mormon
church, isn't happening any more, the better he'll like it. IOW, he's
directing the blame for the necessity of being faux-mo on the church, not the
individual whose life as he knows it hangs in the balance due to the rigid
unforgiving uncompromising non-family oriented doctrines and practices of the
Mormon church.

Or not. I could be reading something into it that isn't there. But I sure
don't take it as a slur against the men struggling to hold their families
together in the face of the relentless Mormon machine.

Subject:

Raising my hand to accept some responsibility

Date:

Aug 14 02:51

Author:

síóg

I haven't seen the thread Noggin is referring to, just
having logged on. But I will say that I encouraged Tal, when I met him on Sunday
night, to reiterate his message, one he sent a couple of months ago.

I was spurred to do so by reading a post a week or so ago by someone who,
having learned the truth, had decided he had to continue to live a lie
because his wife had laid down the law.

Many here found the post heart-breaking. I could see that, but I was also
alarmed at the willingness of the poster to give up himself in order to keep
his wife's threats at bay.

I don't know anyone's situation, and I acknowledge we're all different and
respond differently to our needs and drives.

But I can't see the point of sacrificing one's sanity to the cult because of
the unreasonable demands of a spouse. Nor can I see how a parent who loves
his or her children can allow their children's psyches to be distorted by the
extortion of a TBM spouse. I know -- how bitterly do I know! -- the damage
done to children by the rigidity and lies and demands by the cult that one
give up oneself and the harm done by mentally ill and controlling parents.

How can any sane and loving parent stand by silently under the pretense of
saving his or her family and allow their children to be harmed that way?

HOW???

I'm 54 years old and still recovering from that! You love your children and
you want to allow that shit to happen to them? Where is your self respect?

I address no one specifically, only in general those who feel they have to
submit to TBM demands in order to "save" their families.

When I read Tal's post a couple a months ago in which he urged fathers not to
give into the blackmail of TBM spouses, I thought it was one of the sanest
things I'd seen here. And when I had the good fortune to meet him Sunday
night, I urged him repeatedly to keep repeating that message.

So here I stand. I didn't have the experience or the wisdom to write it. But
I urged Tal to keep posting it. If you're going to blast him, know that I
encouraged him to post what offends you.

Subject:

My marriage comes first

Date:

Aug 14 07:08

Author:

Emma

I understand both sides of this problem. I realize the
implications this can have for my children if they are active members. Here
is why I am not worried. I don't think they will get testimonies of the
church with the real history I will be teaching them. They can't end up
devastated like me because the church lied to them. They have been given all
the facts and can choose to believe. I know that the chances of them getting
a testimony once they learn the truth is slim to none. (unless they have the
mind of an apologist-scary thought)

I do admit that part of me is afraid of coming out to the whole family. I
know that I will be the black sheep and will be treated like one of Satans
angels. That's the reality of living in a TBM world. I also am very sensitive
to my Grandparents, and many relatives that look up to me. This will break
their heart. I don't want them judging me unfairly but I also have no desire
to go and crush my Grandparents testimonies at their age. They have served
the church their entire life. There is no way I can come out of the closet
without preparing all the people I love with the truth.

I went semi inactive all summer and it made me feel very sad for my devoted
husband to go alone to church. He would dress up the kids and go without me.
He also filled in for my calling every Sunday during my hardest months of
this recovery. He is going to take them regardless and I feel we may as well
go as a family. My children will hopefully respect my opinion of the history
I teach them. (they are too little right now to know)

I have gone back and forth each month. I think one day I am going to march
straight in to the Bishop's office and tell him I am done with the church.
But then I realize the reality is my whole community will find out, then all
my relatives and so on. I have to prepare them first. You can't get a TBM to
listen if they think you have left the church. It's better to voice concerns
in a doubting way than to abruptly leave. This is my plan and I am sticking
to it. :) I hope my husband will be honest with himself as he reads the
history, but if not, I love him more than anything and I will not let the
Morg destroy our marriage.

I believe he will see the truth and then we will get the heck out of that
dark and dreary dirty diaper smelling chapel.

Subject:

Joe Smith's family

Date:

Aug 14 07:46

Author:

HTBO

Do you think Joe Smith considered the effect it would have
on *his* family (Emma) when he decided to spill the beans about "the new
and everlasting covenant" of spiritual wifery? What was more important
to him, holding his family together or risking it all and letting his tiny
little weenie go wild under the guise of religion? Sick moron.

Subject:

Re: Mr. Tal Bachman squares off against those who
"cower" to our TBM wives...

Date:

Aug 14 10:47

Author:

butch cassidy

Forgive me if this seems harsh, but may I be so bold as to
ask...

If I am confident that the church is a fraud, and can see the harm it does to
people emotionally, financially, spiritually, physically...

And I have any degree of self-respect at all...

Am I not enabling the whole thing and abandoning those I profess to love if I
don't take some sort of stand?

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not suggesting that you say to your spouse,
"Look, Joseph lied and this whole thing is a crock and if you can't see
it hit the road." That would be a much too mormon approach.

I thought for some time that I could go along to get along, but living a lie
starting getting to me, and I realized it would actually take years off of my
life if I kept it up.

So, I quit pussy footing around, and told my very TBM wife and family in as
kind a way as I could but in no uncertain terms exactly where I stood. There
was much weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, which I just sort of let
happen. I stood my ground with a figurative smile on my face, made sure she
knew I loved her and wanted to be with her, but not if I had to be untrue to
who I now was.

It took a while, and she is still adjusting to some things, but she decided
that who I am is more important than any labels I can wear.

But I had to value myself first and not waver. She then was able to see the
value in me and us and recognize it as being greater than mormonism. Had she
not made that choice, why would I stay?

Subject:

Good point, butch

Date:

Aug 14 11:01

Author:

HTBO

That's a good point, butch. In the long run, you're just enabling;
perpetuating the fraud and asking for all the harmful consequences it will
have on your children. Look at us adults who soaked it all up when we were
kids and how it still affects us.

Don't delay making sincere and positive changes. The best thing you can do
for your loved ones is to be true to yourself. Time's a wastin'!

Subject:

Perhaps

Date:

Aug 14 11:11

Author:

ink

Perhaps he values his marriage above exposing his family to
the fraud of the church? I can't claim to understand that position, but there
are several exmos who share it (like Code7). If you cut down the church to
the bare minimum you can have a calling that only consumes a few hours of
time per week, plus the 3-hour marathon -- it's still a small percentage of
your overall free time. It's not the end of the world.

Now, I don't think I could do that to *my* wife (because it's basically lying
to her, in my opinion) but I can understand why others might choose to do it.
Perhaps the fears that Noggin perceives outweigh any possible benefit from
taking action. The question is, are the fears well founded? Speaking from my
experience, the answer is 'no'; but my situation is not his.

Good luck, Noggin! :-)

Subject:

Re: Perhaps

Date:

Aug 14 11:18

Author:

HTBO

True, although the time spent per week is the least of
worries. Rather, it's the deep feeling, emotion, connection, habit patterns, identity,
and more that are mixed in with the nonsense and become a part of one's
personality and reason for being, especially at an impressionable age.

Subject:

Save your own life and your kids and...

Date:

Aug 14 11:17

Author:

Adios

what about everyone else in the family?

You are right to stand your ground and demand to be respected. Reading the
posts in this thread made me think about all the others in the family,
parents, cousins, aunts and uncles.

I've sat through countless family reunions and thanksgiving dinners thinking
what a bunch of morons I'm dealing with here. No one discusses the fact that
1/3 of us are "in-active."

When children are involved and they are your/my kids I can see the point. But
dealing with adults and the children of others is non of our business and
makes us no better than those pesky home/visiting teachers on a re-activation
mission.

I'm with you 100% that mormonism is a fraud, and if any one asks me I will
gladly tell them how I feel. But I'm not about to interfere with someone
else's immediate family. Respect goes both ways.

Subject:

Tal, you were damned lucky to marry Mrs. Tal. Not
everyone on this board was that fortunate

Date:

Aug 14 11:39

Author:

Matt

Some people on this board have a wife or husband that
would, if they told them the truth about how they feel about TSCC, would
react very badly.

Tal, it's an error to mistake your reality for that of other people.

Subject:

to those of you who are faux mo

Date:

Aug 14 11:40

Author:

anon

Do you guys deter visitors who come to church from
joining? I think that would be awesome if you guys did. Just get their number,
invite them to do something and tell them how awful the church really is and
how you are stuck in it! It could be like anti-mo fellowship! Just an idea. I
understand why you guys are still there, and that is fine by me. I am not
sure how many of your spouses would really divorce you. If they aren't
willing to read an "anti" book, I am not so sure they are willing
to file papers, but I don't know you guys or your spouses so I can't sit back
and judge. You could just remind them that they would still be sealed to you
and there is no way you would pull them through the veil and that if they are
female anyway they can't get sealed to another man without breaking your
sealing. So there eternal future is shot anyway. I am just rambling now, but
keep posting here you guys. I think you all esp. need an outlet and that is
what this board is for! Hopefully one day you can get your spouses out. Until
then, just make sure you kids know the facts and help them stay out!

Subject:

I admire you for walking that thin line.

Date:

Aug 14 11:45

Author:

cheeseburger

I see a reflection of my own situation in yours. While you
are married to a TBM, I am married to a staunch, fundie-like christian who would
abhor my evolving agnostic, exotic philosophies. Most likely our marriage
would tank if the full truth of my heresy were known.

I'd rather that not happen. I have a little boy.

Noggin, you love your wife, though she doesn't see things the way you do.
(let's add a hopeful "yet".) Tal, you love your wife, and she DOES
see things the way you do.

Both of you are lucky.

I think lately on the board there's been too much criticism of other's path
out of the LDS church. Some of us are able to drive out on newly-laid tarmac,
and others of us have to slide on our bellies through the underbrush. At
least we're going.

Subject:

go Noggin

Date:

Aug 14 11:59

Author:

Secret Agent exMo

When I read that post, and that little bit there, it seemed
very Brigham Youngish to me. I mean, I read it as, "Stop letting your
wife rule the roost. YOU are the man! Tell your wife who's the boss, with all
your priesthood powers and everything. Stupid bitch!"

Then I read the rest of Tal's post, and realized the man was on one big rant.
A Binge and Purge if you will. All he needed was 30 or so F-bombs in there
and it would have been one of the best binge and purges ever done. I
understand the need to do up a good binge and purge now and again. And a good
binge and purge does NOT take into account any other persons feelings. It is
in fact a very selfish thing, but hey, so what.

You did up a mighty fine counterpoint there Noggin. I think what I would add
is that often people post to the net their feelings on a subject or
experience, and those postings often include ideas that are never said
outside of the keyboard. And so it doesn't create a whole picture of the
situation. In other words, you can't assume anything about a person or
situation based on internet posts only. It is a very incomplete and scattered
mess of pixels.

Subject:

Encouragement for husbands afraid to be open with their
children and wives

Date:

Aug 15 21:28

Author:

Tal Bachman

I continue to be torn over the question of what to think
about husbands who have decided to keep their mouths shut, for fear of
causing divorce, about the cult their children are being raised in - a cult,
which as I mentioned in another post a month or so ago, would very literally
rather see your son come home dead from his mission, than make public the
FACTS about its history which it is currently hiding in its archives, and
which are relevant to the question of whether Joseph tales were true or not.
Those amiable, avuncular GA's we like to pretend are so benign, would rather
your child get shot than find out it's a fraud. Why are we deluding
ourselves? So we can justify our unconscionable lack of firmness?

But, I'm torn. On the one hand, I don't want to be judgmental; on the other,
I think it is absolutely sick that a grown man would allow his children to
grow up being indoctrinated with a whole series of lies, lies which our own
flesh and blood will reference for all of the most important decisions of
their lives: when to marry, how many children to have, who to marry, who to
donate money to, what to do for a living, which university to attend, what to
risk your life for, etc.

And while I completely understand how terrifying it is to think of family
break-up, especially when (to speak frankly) all of us guys have been raised
in a church which in important ways inhibited the development of our own
sources of emotional strength as males, it still strikes me as profoundly
wrong that any man should be dissuaded from a moral duty (namely, protect
your children) because of a wife's threats.

Does that sound macho? Probably. So, I'm kind stuck. It's lose - lose - lose.
I'm either judgmental, or macho, or, if I talk about my own experience, which
as it happens, had a happy ending, I might sound boastful, though I'm
relieved, not proud.

But since I've already done a good job of sounding like a judgmental
misogynist anyway, I might as well mention my own experience. Maybe it will
encourage some other guys out there to stop being bullied into keeping quiet
about the one thing that you should NOT keep quiet about - the mental and
emotional welfare of your children.

I spilled my guts to my wife. I offered to go through everything with her,
all the church stuff that is, and talk it all over. She did her own research,
realized what was up, and basically had a nervous breakdown. A few times she
got angry at me for "pulling her out of the Matrix". As a result of
all the up and down stuff, we ended up pretty emotionally estranged by
July/August of 2004.

Last night, we went out for dinner. She gave me a birthday card that said,
"Thank you for saving my life". She went on to say that she had
felt (prior to finding out about the church) that she "was dying a slow
death", but couldn't figure out why. The journey out had been terrible,
but now she was happier than ever. She teared up.

A few weeks ago, I told her that sometimes I felt as though I hadn't
accomplished much in life. She looked at me and said, "You got us out of
a cult", and then gave me a huge hug. (RIGHT ON!)

I remember clearly, right after I told her in November of 2003, that if she
wanted, I'd keep my mouth shut and stay in forever, keep the whole thing
going. In those moments of terrible fear and vulnerability, I couldn't
imagine how I could ever risk losing the thing that mattered most to me.

But the passing of some time lent more clarity to what Mormonism really is,
what it does to you, emotionally and mentally and even spiritually, and to
what we had become because of it...and I woke up one morning thinking,
"No matter what she said to me, I'd never go back; and if she ever said
she would end our marriage because I wouldn't live a lie, or in effect lie
through omission to my children about everything that is most important in
life, I'd say 'If that's what our marriage is really about for you - cult
allegiance - rather than you and me and our love together, then do whatever
you want.'"

I never did say this to her, though, because it didn't come to that. But I
would have, and I would have meant it, though of course it would have been
terrible to go through a divorce, especially with seven little children.

I know another guy on here who also took the risk of leveling with his
children despite his wife's fear-based threats, and has had the identical
result. They are happier than ever (she finally agreed to listen to him once
she saw he wouldn't back down. She's now out, too).

I don't know what we're doing as dads if we're not trying to prepare our
children for adult life, trying to protect them for people who would take
advantage of their innocence - like Joseph Smith and his successors - and I
can't believe that if some loon tried to take advantage of our kids, and our
wives objected and started threatening and throwing tantrums, that we'd just
kind of cave in to "maintain peace". Our kids' minds are being
pounded every Sunday with "Follow the Prophet", a song truly worthy
of Jonestown or Nazi Germany, absolutely the WRONG preparation for life in
the 21st century, and they are bing taught to recite a litany of lies, like
that they "know" that Joseph Smith is a "true prophet",
and that the creator of the universe will only be happy with them if they
shove their consciousness, their entire lives, into the ever-shrinking box
that is Mormonism.

How much heartache has the world seen because men stood by and kept their
mouths shut while other men were preying on the vulnerable, and using fear
tactics to scare them into submission? It is in the power of every husband on
here to stop this sick cycle in his own home and level, with as much love and
understanding as possible, with those who need him the most.

Now dammit, I want to hear some success stories, not a bunch of exuses!

Good luck!

T.

Subject:

Tal, read the post from my wife, Wife of Mr. Apostate

Date:

Aug 15 21:51

Author:

Mr. Apostate

She for one was willing to listen and then learn.

She is not out of the woods yet, but has come very far on her journey to
finding sanity outside of that thing that people here in Utah only know as
"the church."

Subject:

A tale of two brothers...

Date:

Aug 15 22:28

Author:

Alyosha

Well here is a success story, kind of.

I left Mormonism about 20 years ago. I had an epiphany of sorts and realized
that it wasn't true. This was a after a mission, temple marriage and 3 kids.
My wife was a foreign convert and continued to go to Church. She was upset at
how the members reacted to my apostasy and came home one day after a
troubling Relief Society lesson on the topic. She told me that it couldn't be
true, as I was a "good man" (in her foreign accent). She chose her
marriage with me over the Church. We went on to raise our kids out of
Mormonism and ended up moving to the East coast. We have been married close
to 30 years.

My brother was married to a TBM and also wanted to leave about the time I
did. He was told that it was either the Church or a divorce. He caved in to
her demands. She still brags to all the family about how stalwart she was.
They have become very active in their ward, many callings, and all kids
serving mission or temple marriage. He has been able to capitalize
financially on his position in the Church. He is secure and well thought of
in his community.

His wife came and stayed with us a few days not too long ago. I was shocked
at how childish and manipulative she was. Conversation were forced, awkward
and superficial. I realized that after all this time, I have nothing in
common with either of them, except a distant path that we once shared.

I saw my wife, open, caring, pursuing her own genuine interests in art,
education, foods, politics, friends and family relations. There was no
controlling Church. No need to toot ones own horn of how smart, or righteous,
or rich, or great we were.

I'm so glad we chose a different fork in the road, and how those paths have
provided us with rich experiences, friendships, political perspectives, foods
... Freedom, to love, grow spirituality, discover beauty, goodness and truth.
Life can be a great adventure, if you are willing to listen to your
intuition.

There is more that I could say, but I don't want to take any more of your
time. I guess that is as close I have ever come to a true testimony.

Subject:

Hi Tal, I enjoy your posts

Date:

Aug 15 23:43

Author:

FannyAl

I agree with you but every person is at a different part
of their recovery. I noticed on another thread that you have known the
church's lies for a few years now. (correct me if I am wrong, I have been
reading a lot the last few days) I have only known for 6 months. I know you
are speaking to husbands but this applies to wives with TBM husbands as well.
If it meant losing my husband, I think would live the double life. You can
still be honest with your kids and teach them what the church won't. Lets
face it, what chance do they have of believing when they find out what the
Celestial Kingdom will be like or Joseph Smith going on treasure hunts.

I am fortunate that I don't have to pretend. My DH is on this journey with me
but I can't say if he will come to the conclusion I have. I am still not for
sure that I am making the right choice to throw my religion away. I am still
attending church (semi actively) and still teaching Primary. The times I go
are just for appearances and to avoid telling the Bishop my feelings.(my
family is in the Stake) It's not the right time yet. All of my family are TBM
and some Pioneer stock. This will break their hearts. I have just begun
sharing my disgust for polygamy with them. I want to make sure they
understand that I am not leaving the church to sin, and that I have tried
everything to overcome what I know. I feel so much guilt when I watch my
husband go to church by himself and he gets the kids all dressed up. They
want me to go with them. It makes me tear up knowing I have caused our
current crisis. (I know I shouldn't blame myself but if I only would have
kept that polygamy question out of my mind....)

That said, I can't go back. The things I know are impossible for me to
overcome. I don't believe my testimony can be restored, but.....I still am at
a stage where I hold out some kind of hope. What if I am wrong? What if there
is something I haven't read that would give me some kind of spiritual
understanding? Was I too impatient with answers? I also realize that history
is just a bunch of pieces-some are half truths or completely false. With all
the evidence I have read, the puzzle pieces fit perfectly that the church is
a fraud. But, what if my husband has had really strong spiritual experiences
and I believe him? I trust him and I know this sounds terrible, but I would
follow him back to church if he KNEW it was true because I love him that much
and trust in him. I have always looked up to him. I am the cynic in our
marriage. I have always been the one to ask the questions about doctrine
because I like to analyze and think for myself. My husband is very intelligent
but he also is much more spiritual. I have always been a doubter that wanted
to believe because I love my Savior and the gospel. I also loved the temple
and had very wonderful experiences there. Now that I have read the church
history, I don't ever want to go back there. That is why I went to FARMS and
FAIR, and prayed with more sincerity than I ever have before. NO answers
came. I only felt peace when I decided to "leave" my Faith. I am
still in the doubting stage. I doubt myself and my spirit. I worry that
something is wrong with me. Am I not worthy enough to receive personal
revelation on these things? I am crying out to the Lord for understanding.
Has he left me because I hate polygamy and am repulsed by the Prophets? Is it
my fault I am not getting answers? This is my stage of recovery.

I don't picture myself attending church 5 years from now if I have decided
without a shadow of a doubt it's all a fraud. I don't think all the closet
doubters will either. It doesn't last to long. The kids will not gain
testimonies even attending church every Sunday if their exmormon parent
educates them. (In my opinion) How can anybody want to gain a testimony of a
man that lies and cheats?

RFM is a place I come to vent. My husband knows exactly how I feel and I have
hidden nothing from him on my search for truth. He knows that I feel so
betrayed by the church that I will not overcome it. I don't believe my
children will be brain washed unless I keep quiet on everything. That's what
my father did to me. I just found out last month that he read every anti
Mormon book out there and was a closet doubter my entire childhood. I feel a
little upset by him for not telling me the truth. (my parents just wanted us
to turn out good) My in laws know some of the polygamy history but yet my
husband was never taught anything about this in his home. Were they praying
we would never stumble upon the truth? It's sick. I will not hide anything of
this from my children.

Thank you for your family's story. I can't say I hope my husband gets out
because right now I am so worried I could be wrong. This is more stress than
I can handle. It's my eternal salvation and I am so scared. The thing is,
there is nothing I would change about my belief in sin and living the
commandments. I know that wickedness doesn't bring happiness. I want to be
the Mormon I was raised to be. Then on the other side, I know that I can't
feel any happiness in the church now. I can't believe in a God and Jesus that
treat women as posessions or blacks as inferior. So the Prophets are either
false or I don't love God. It's the fear that keeps me lingering. I know I
need to jump off that cliff but I haven't reached that point yet. I am slowly
climbing down it. I just recently stopped paying my tithing. I will not
support dishonesty. I am going to donate my tithing money to charity. This
was a very difficult thing to approach my husband about. He was supportive
but slightly reluctant. Even if I do attend church, they do not have my
financial support and when I teach Primary they are only getting lessons
about Jesus. I didn't go to church this week though. Every week I think it
will be the time I announce my departure but I still can't do it.

Subject:

It's not all puppy dogs and rainbows... but...

Date:

Aug 15 23:59

Author:

antishock8

... I do believe you have to do what you believe is the
right thing to do.

Straight to the matter.

I left the Church.
She left me and had an exit affair for good measure.
She left the kids with me six months later.
2 1/2 years later she made a custody move.
$17,000 later I still have the kids primarily.

Was it worth it? Yes. It was. For them. I could never stand by and let my
girls be possibly indoctrinated to believe they are subordinate to men, their
true place is in the home popping out babies, and to live the rest of their
lives within the narrow confines of Mormon dogma. You might was well have
shot them, because in either scenario those bright little girls would have
been lost... eventually... and what father willingly sacrifices his daughters
to a Church that would do that to them in order to maintain a truce at home?
Not this one. Not ever. Never. They will never, ever, not once, ever, have to
wonder where my loyalty lies. Ever. I love those kids. And so... yes, it was
worth it.

But I do understand why some choose a different manner in exiting the
Church... they simply hope to hold onto something that was lost to so many...
their family. And I can understand the strong desire to keep a family in
tact. I do. So. No judgments from me.

Subject:

I opened up to my wife...

Date:

Aug 16 00:16

Author:

lost-mo

...on Sunday. It was the most emotionally draining
experience of my life. I told her about how I felt about the church; I gave
voice to things I've never aired... ever. I told her how I'd felt the church
was a crock since I was a teen. How I'd told my parents about my unbelief
when I was only 17. Then how my Mum had thrown me out of the house, with
Dad's blessing, yelling at me never to come back. Funnily enough I found
faith a few months later, went on a mission, married in the temple, never
believing, always with a horrible knot in my stomach; feeling guilty for my
doubt.
I came clean to my wife. I've lived a lie for 20 years. It's been twenty
years since I knew thew truth, but I couldn't leave. My entire family, both
sides, my friends, everyone are members. But I told her I couldn't do it
anymore. I'm in physical pain everytime I hear a four yr old get up in
sacrament and proclaim "I know joseph smith is a true prophet". I
can't stand the self indoctrination techniques any longer.
My wife didn't take it well. She suggested I go... so I packed my things. But
before I could leave, to where I had no clue, she stopped me. She said she
loved me, wanted to know if our temple marriage was a lie. I told her I loved
her that day and that she was the most beautiful woman I'd ever seen. We
spent the entire day talking, yelling, crying. At one point she suggested we
kill ourselves... no shit. However, in the end she told me she still loves me
and will support my decision.
For the last couple days I've felt kind of lost and really lonely, it's so
weird. But my wife and I are cool now. In a way I've got her to thank. She's
always insisted I be "myself" and not some mormon-ideal. Sorry if
I've taken up this thread with my woe-is-me drivel, but the chances of me
actually coming to this site "and" finding this post right when I
needed it... sheesh. Thanks Tal.

Subject:

Afraid?????

Date:

Aug 16 00:28

Author:

Craig Paxton

Tal, I hope you know that I have the deepest respect for
you. I believe your heart is in the right place...and you only wish the very
best for husbands like me who live with the reality of being married to an
Uber-Mormo-Nazi-TBM.

I can not speak for anyone else but myself and my experience...but I
seriously doubt that the word "Afraid" is appropriate.

My wife is beyond brainwashed....she is fanatic. And God I love her.

I have made many attempts to talk with her about the truths behind
Mormonism...and I continue to point out inconsistencies at every opportunity
I can in the hope of exposing the fraud. She shuts down and wants to hear
none of it.

Yeah sorry but the church has its hooks deep in her. She even once told me
that if the church is not what it claims to be...she doesn't want to know
because she finds Christ in it...and it serves her needs.

She pleaded with me...not to take that away from her. Afraid? No I'm not
afraid...we found a middle ground where neither of us is getting 100% of what
we want...its working...and I would prefer this arrangement to not having her
in my life.

If any of this sounds like a cop out to you...I'm sincerely sorry...I'm just
trying to deal in my own way with the reality I find myself in.

Love Ya Bro,

Craig

Subject:

Re: Afraid?????

Date:

Aug 16 00:38

Author:

bona dea

This is a very personal decision with serious consequences
in doing it wrong. I was lucky to have left the church when single and that I
never had to make the decision. As far as kids, if the wife gets custody,
they will be raised as Mormons anyway. I was raised as a Mormon and don't
feel that it blighted my life even if it didn't work for me. I think that
depends on the parents and how Nazi-TBM their beliefs are. I would be very
hesitant to give advice in this area. There are two sides to it and I don't
want to be partly responsible for breaking up a reasonably good marriage. The
unbeliever has to figure it out for himself.

Subject:

Re: Encouragement for husbands afraid to be open with
their children and wives

Date:

Aug 16 00:40

Author:

DebbiePA

Sorry, Tal, but you have to hear the excuses, too. I
belong to a private mailing list for non-believers who are married to TBMs. I
have heard a lot more horror stories than I have successes. Most of the men
and women who admit to being non-believers to their TBM spouses end up either
"faking it" to keep the family together, or getting divorced.

Sometimes I too, think, "grow some balls," but then I read things
like, "I love my children so very much, the thought of not being with
them every day tears me apart inside." Or, "I truly love my
wife/husband. Other than the Mormon issue, we are perfect together." Or,
"I'm hoping that by staying in the marriage I will be able to protect my
kids from the more negative aspects of the church." A lot of times that
resolve doesn't last long as the cognitive dissonance grows stronger. For
every one couple that makes it when one of them leaves the church, there are
ten who don't.

You may have heard the words of the GA who said that it doesn't matter if you
love the other person when you get married or not, as long as both of you are
faithful members, you will be happy together because you are living the
gospel. I think this gives Mormons a very warped view of their partner's
place in their life. They are led to believe that the position of the spouse
within the church is more important to the marriage than the feeling you may
have for them or what kind of person they are, and therefore spouses are
quite interchangeable. Yours leaves and can't take you to the CK? Find
another one. I've heard of several members who got divorced over the church
issue whose ex went on to marry within months so that they would have a
faithful partner.

The church is only a family-centered institution as long as both spouses
remain members. I think we've all heard the stories of the bishops who have
counseled the faithful to leave their "apostate" spouse. It happens
even now. Each of us has his/her own path, and for some that means
"faking it" and for others it means taking the chance of losing all.
You're one of the lucky ones whose wife followed him out. Not all of us are
quite so lucky.

Debbie

Subject:

Re: Encouragement for husbands afraid to be open with
their children and wives

Date:

Aug 16 03:15

Author:

Mr. Poopypants

My wife and I are both Return missionaries. I was a secret
unbeliever for several year. My wife knew but no-one else. I slowly started
doing things differently. Colored shirts instead of white, no tie, not
accepting new callings, tell my wife to pay less tithing, only go to sacrament
meeting, then wait for the rest of the family at the library. My oldest
daughter was just a few months from turning eight, so I began telling her the
truth, bit by bit. I was dreading the eigth birthday, because I would either
had to baptize her or blow my cover completely, but my wife fixed that. One
night in July of 2004 she said she couldn't stand it any longer. One of us
would be moving out in the morning with the divorce to follow quickly. I
don't think she knew about my subversive discussions with my oldest. I drove
her and our four daughters to church each week and didn't bother Mrs.
Poopypants about the church, I thought we could respect eachothers beliefs.
She however couldn't stand being married to a non believer any more. She said
she was done. We stayed up late into the night crying and arguing. The gist
of the argument was that since she only wanted to leave me because I was a
non-believer but didn't know why I didn't believe she didn't really know root
of why she was leaving me. She didnt' want to hear it either, because
"she knew what the anti-mormons had to say." Well since it was over
I had nothing to lose by not waiting for an invitation, so I started laying
it out for her. I told her some of my big concerns with the church. I told
her I my goal was not to turn her away from the church, but to have her
respect my choices and see that my concerns were valid, and not worth leaving
me over. After briefly hearing some of my concerns she agreed to look into
them for me. She thought she may be able to resolve my concerns, so the move
out was post-poned pending her investigation. She did not talk to me much
about her investigation. She must have done most of it while I was at work.
After about two weeks I started prying, asking how her investigation was
going. Finally I learned that we were would be sticking together, her mind
was opening up and she was free too. Nine months later, our fifth child was
born.