well, I saw an elephant whistling dixie, but the young girl walking behind my computer whilst at work saw two nubile nymphets sitting atop a phallic symbol.
She then complained to compliance, who then demanded to see the elephant.
Unfortunately, the compliance manager agreed with the other worker, and then marched me to HR for a reprimand and reacquiantace with the company policy on acceptable use of IT facilities.
Hence now, looking at the inkblot I can see trouble!!!!! Which upon reflection is exactly what it is!!!!

well, I saw an elephant whistling dixie, but the young girl walking behind my computer whilst at work saw two nubile nymphets sitting atop a phallic symbol.
She then complained to compliance, who then demanded to see the elephant.
Unfortunately, the compliance manager agreed with the other worker, and then marched me to HR for a reprimand and reacquiantace with the company policy on acceptable use of IT facilities.
Hence now, looking at the inkblot I can see trouble!!!!! Which upon reflection is exactly what it is!!!!

For some reason your post reminds me of Fripp and Eno's "Baby's on Fire," but that song is anything but pop.

Oh, I didn't see the phallic symbol. Judging by your response it appears you have histrionic personality disorder (it's all those exclamation marks!!!) but it's ok cos you're a drummer and if it's good enough for Keith, who are we to quibble about being a tad mental? That's my excuse, anyway. The workmate who looked over your shoulder has issues too. :)

Don, Baby's On Fire is a pretty poppy number, really. Catchy, has a beat, decries media destructive sensationalism and/or the cult of celebrity. Replace the edgy backing with a cool drum machine beat and a few stae-of-the-art synth sounds and you have a pop song :)

Oh, I didn't see the phallic symbol. Judging by your response it appears you have histrionic personality disorder (it's all those exclamation marks!!!) but it's ok cos you're a drummer and if it's good enough for Keith, who are we to quibble about being a tad mental? That's my excuse, anyway. The workmate who looked over your shoulder has issues too. :)

Don, Baby's On Fire is a pretty poppy number, really. Catchy, has a beat, decries media destructive sensationalism and/or the cult of celebrity. Replace the edgy backing with a cool drum machine beat and a few stae-of-the-art synth sounds and you have a pop song :)

This has been gone over, but to me pop is not top 40. Pop was easy listening with a back beat, ala Tony and Orlando and Dawn as you said, but a better example to me would be the likes of the Fifth Dimension. I'm not sure what a current example might be, maybe Celene Dion? Thank God for satellite radio. lol

Anyway, I never would have put Baby's on Fire in the pop catagory if for no other reason then it's too raw.

How about a pop song with a rock execution? Heh, I'm just kidding around of course but it does at least have a hook and catchy melody, almost simple enough to be a (very, very dark) nursery rhyme, even if there isn't a single other thing about it that's poppy :)

How about a pop song with a rock execution? Heh, I'm just kidding around of course but it does at least have a hook and catchy melody, almost simple enough to be a (very, very dark) nursery rhyme, even if there isn't a single other thing about it that's poppy :)

Nursery rhyme? lol Next time I read to my granddaughter before bed I'll tell her about laughing like a hefer to the slaughter and Juan dancing at Chico's! haha Right up there with burning airlines offer so much more! She'll sleep well I'm sure. 8^)

Nursery rhyme? lol Next time I read to my granddaughter before bed I'll tell her about laughing like a hefer to the slaughter and Juan dancing at Chico's! haha Right up there with burning airlines offer so much more! She'll sleep well I'm sure. 8^)

Oh that's bad.. haha.. no i didn't see the phallac symbol either... but it looks like the women have skulls hanging over their heads... what does THAT mean?! Should i be worried?
I think really though I was just in an "odd" (perverse?) mood yesterday morning... heh heh... Sorry about the crude response.
Anyway... i don't want to derail this thread again... just thought i'd write back about the "inkblot". And give my sympathy to John... poor guy... just looking at drummerworld and got in trouble... that's why my monitor faces AWAY from everyone else. :)

Anyway... i don't want to derail this thread again... just thought i'd write back about the "inkblot". And give my sympathy to John... poor guy... just looking at drummerworld and got in trouble... that's why my monitor faces AWAY from everyone else. :)

LOl..........As they say, always in the sh*t, merely the depth varies. I must admit, I didnt see a phallic symbol, but I regard the young girl who did in a different light now!!!
Getting back to the concept of pop music, what defines it?
Deltadrummer thinks that Bartok is not necessarily pop music. However, at a Bartok recital, the attendees are presumably Bartok fans, and hence Bartok is "popular" amongst that sample group. Is the Carmina Burina the classical equivalent of Pollyanna's example of "Tie a yellow ribbon"? I enjoy classical music, (wish that bloke at the front would sit down and stop waving the chopstick around. Cant see the bird with the small guitar under her chin. She's hot and I know she wants me!!!)
Is pop music characterised by poor musicianship? Would anyone suggest that the likes of YoYo Ma, Nigel Kennedy, Vanessa Mae, and others are poor musicians? Yet they are attempting to bring classical music to a wider audience.
Is pop music characterised by cheesy lyrics? Annie Lennox, Lilly Allen can chrurn out fairly adequate social commentary.

So pop music is difficult to classify. Do we need to? Enjoy it or not at ones own discretion.

OMG John, I thought you were kidding! I thought your tale of being hauled up before the powers that be was too absurd to be real. Wow, I'm sorry for that. Next time I'll put in a warning.

This says a great deal about your workmate, who has SPECTACULARLY failed the inkblot test (or passed it, depending on your worldview).

Yes, time lends a certain extra dignity to things. A junk pop song today will be seen in an entirely different light in 100 years' time, assuming our infrastructure survives all the stuff going on at the moment.

OMG John, I thought you were kidding! I thought your tale of being hauled up before the powers that be was too absurd to be real. Wow, I'm sorry for that. Next time I'll put in a warning.

This says a great deal about your workmate, who has SPECTACULARLY failed the inkblot test (or passed it, depending on your worldview).

Yes, time lends a certain extra dignity to things. A junk pop song today will be seen in an entirely different light in 100 years' time, assuming our infrastructure survives all the stuff going on at the moment.

lol............sad to say that my comment regarding the depth of my predicament at any given moment is entirely correct. However, as a position, I am comfortable with that. No need for any warnings......I rather like the idea of living dangerously at the work station..:)

Just as a matter of information, what should one have seen to be labelled anything other than a psycopath????

Yes, time lends a certain extra dignity to things. A junk pop song today will be seen in an entirely different light in 100 years' time, assuming our infrastructure survives all the stuff going on at the moment.

Or vice versa. I hear Elvis & the Beatles mostly in elevators thesedays.

Yes, some music, like GG, is very much of its time and once the era passes it's mostly forgotten unless there's a retro movement.

It wil be interesting to see what happens when the current crop of superstars who are in their 60s and still performing (at over $100 per ticket) get too old to play. What will fill the void?

I think that's the thing about current pop... well most pop... a lot of pop stars are one hit wonders or don't have that lasting characteristic so I don't know if i can see a lot of the pop stars lasting that long... There may be a few from each generation that last and they are not necessarily the BEST...
I think that the real discussion isn't on the merit of pop, or even the classification of pop, but on the concept of writing and performing music that you specifically gear towards a demographic for the purpose of making money (and this can be any genre). It all goes back to the sub-conversations of audience age and commercial art/music. Which means maybe we shouldn't be talking "pop" but "commercial music" instead.
The point is that pop artists create music for a specific demographic and are trying to make money instead of an artistic statement. While personally I don't use music to make money, as its a hobby for me, I do feel like a professional composer/songwriter needs to make money and the best way to do that is catering to what your audience will want. I don't think music is bad just because it is successful or intended for a particular audience. I think that's just good business... I also don't think music is good just because its artistic or different... a lot of experimental or "artistic" music written from the "heart" or "soul" can be complete crap.
others may feel that music should ALWAYS be an artistic expression of the soul and if they're successful with it then good for them if they aren't then they don't care because they're making their music from the heart.. I've always been more pragmatic then that which is why i "sold out" and became a commercial artist... and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

And yeah that girl at john's work is probably really uptight (obviously) but also she's probably got some weird kink going on in her head if she saw the women AND some phallus that none of us perverts saw.

The point is that pop artists create music for a specific demographic and are trying to make money instead of an artistic statement. While personally I don't use music to make money, as its a hobby for me, I do feel like a professional composer/songwriter needs to make money and the best way to do that is catering to what your audience will want. I don't think music is bad just because it is successful or intended for a particular audience. I think that's just good business... I also don't think music is good just because its artistic or different... a lot of experimental or "artistic" music written from the "heart" or "soul" can be complete crap.

Good observations, Matt.

Thing is, is it only about making money? Sting said that The Police was about making money so he could play what he liked, but was it ALL about making money? Invisible Sun? Demolition Man? Synchronicity? Did Stewie do that amazing sticking in Walking On The Moon to make money? We all know the answer to that. The difference between making music for money or for passion is often blurred IMO. Simply to be good enough standard to go pro suggests some level of passion, even if it's in the past.

Then there's the idea of making music to please yourself. Is that better than creating music with the intention of giving pleasure to a lot of people?

In business the idea is to work out what people want and give it to them, as you intimated. So we don't judge bar owners for doing that, so why judge musicians? Because music can also be ART. Expression of the soul. Scaling the hieights of human endeavour blah blah. Some people have very little time for anything that's not high art, kinda like only drinking Perrier and refusing to drink tap water. Connoisseurs. Whatever floats your boat, eh?

As someone who enjoys Gary Larson's Far Side to Monet and Rembrandt I admit my view of kulcha is a tad skewed :)

As someone who enjoys Gary Larson's Far Side to Monet and Rembrandt I admit my view of kulcha is a tad skewed :)

well I can say imo... the difference with the police vs many commercial minded musicians is that the police were incredible musicians :)
anyway... our different views on the whole music art/passion vs commercialism thing seem pretty ironic for 2 commercial artists.
I just feel like if you write music to make money that's fine and doesn't necessarily mean it will be bad (case in point with the police) but if you are a crappy musician who writes crappy music you can either write crappy commercial music and make $ or hide behind "artistic integrity" and not have any listeners.

well I can say imo... the difference with the police vs many commercial minded musicians is that the police were incredible musicians :)

Kenny G is a superb musican. Michael Bolton is an excellent singer. Now look at the gulf between the pleasure most of us gain from their music as compared with those of The Police.

It can be hard to work out what is success through being appealing to a lot of people ends and success through marketing exposure. If we differ, it could be because I enjoy a lot of commercial music, eg. Madonna, Anastacia, B52s, Coldplay, etc as well as Steely Dan, Captain Beefheart, Uncle Frank, Crimson, Mahavishnu ...

The thing that bugs many of us is that record companies shape people's tastes in the same way as the media shapes people's opinions. It means that too often there's no room at the top for the cream to rise because there are all these cookie-cutter acts pushed by the companies in the way.

If we differ, it could be because I enjoy a lot of commercial music, eg. Madonna, Anastacia, B52s, Coldplay, etc as well as Steely Dan, Captain Beefheart, Uncle Frank, Crimson, Mahavishnu ....

Interesting... because it seems like we're arguing the opposite points. You like commercial bands and I don't yet it felt like you were saying that commercialism is bad (maybe i misunderstood) and I was saying it makes sense. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

The thing that bugs many of us is that record companies shape people's tastes in the same way as the media shapes people's opinions. It means that too often there's no room at the top for the cream to rise because there are all these cookie-cutter acts pushed by the companies in the way.

Point taken. You're right. That is a problem with the industry... there isn't room for the good performers to move up with all the crap at the top based all on image and not at all on talent. So really the problem is more about the music industry's implentation of Pop, not pop (or commercial music) or the artists.
So we've worked out that maybe it isn't the artists fault? and That maybe there's nothing wrong with writing music geared toward an audience or demographic as long as its done well... but maybe its the record companies corruption of the art that causes so much crap to get played.

PS: I heard this band "Hollywood Undead" last night and they seem to be a perfect example of the raprock I was talking about earlier. They're rap artists that teamed up with rock musicians and instrumentation to create a very interesting sound... I am trying to find more examples of this besides the well known bands like 311, linkin park, beastie boys etc. that use rock instrumentations with a hip-hop and rap influence in the vocals. If anyone else knows any good current bands that do this, please let me know... I might be able to get into rockrap or rapcore even if i can't stand rap or hip hop usually. It definatley seems like a great way to bridge the gap between rock fans and rap fans and to give a fresh breath to both genres.

You like commercial bands and I don't yet it felt like you were saying that commercialism is bad (maybe i misunderstood) and I was saying it makes sense. :)

Yup, it was a misunderstanding. Sorry 'bout that. I probably got a bit convoluted again :)

I don't know whether you'd call them current, but Rage Against the Machine and the Chilli Peppers come to mind. You also have jazz samples in rap tunes. I don't know of any jazz/rap coming strongly from the jazz angle; it's more rap incorporating jazz than the other way around.

I can see a rap and blues mix working too. Both styles were invented by underprivileged black people. I love the White Stripes's mix of blues, pop and rock - a great sound.

I know this is offtopic but I have to share this video with you. It's one of the funnniest things I've ever seen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw5oJoUYTb8. I recommend the other shreds too. The Santana and Nine Inch Nails ones are a hoot too :)

Yup, it was a misunderstanding. Sorry 'bout that. I probably got a bit convoluted again :)

I don't know whether you'd call them current, but Rage Against the Machine and the Chilli Peppers come to mind. You also have jazz samples in rap tunes. I don't know of any jazz/rap coming strongly from the jazz angle; it's more rap incorporating jazz than the other way around.

I can see a rap and blues mix working too. Both styles were invented by underprivileged black people. I love the White Stripes's mix of blues, pop and rock - a great sound.

I know this is offtopic but I have to share this video with you. It's one of the funnniest things I've ever seen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw5oJoUYTb8. I recommend the other shreds too. The Santana and Nine Inch Nails ones are a hoot too :)

I'll have to wait to watch it at home.. youtube is blocked at work and my headphones for my phone are busted. Yes.. Rage and Chilli peppers are good examples of rockers pulling influence from rap... what i'm more interested are the bands that are coming out from the other way around where they are rappers who have "converted" to rock. I think that can be more true to the rap stylings. I think one of my big turn-offs from rap are the lousy drum/bass beats so many of them use. which i think is something that we were discussing a couple pages ago as being a problem with hip-hop, rap and modern pop. I think part of that is that my typical style is hard rock... i can play jazz (not extremely well but i can) and i can play other typically lighter styles (soft rock etc.) but what i enjoy is tearing the drums up and rocking out (but not really metal... zep and the who for example). This is something that you don't get to hear in rap. That edgy hard sound is completely lacking as it seems it is mostly a vocal genre.

I'll have to wait to watch it at home.. youtube is blocked at work and my headphones for my phone are busted. Yes.. Rage and Chilli peppers are good examples of rockers pulling influence from rap... what i'm more interested are the bands that are coming out from the other way around where they are rappers who have "converted" to rock. I think that can be more true to the rap stylings. I think one of my big turn-offs from rap are the lousy drum/bass beats so many of them use. which i think is something that we were discussing a couple pages ago as being a problem with hip-hop, rap and modern pop. I think part of that is that my typical style is hard rock... i can play jazz (not extremely well but i can) and i can play other typically lighter styles (soft rock etc.) but what i enjoy is tearing the drums up and rocking out (but not really metal... zep and the who for example). This is something that you don't get to hear in rap. That edgy hard sound is completely lacking as it seems it is mostly a vocal genre.

Yes, we can't YouTube either and I forgot it's Friday work for you. It's late here.

Is it the beats that bug you so much or the sounds? The beats are repetitive but the patterns of the loops seem ok to my ear. There might be some of the stuff you're looking underground, maybe like this? (another one for home)

Yes, we can't YouTube either and I forgot it's Friday work for you. It's late here.

Is it the beats that bug you so much or the sounds? The beats are repetitive but the patterns of the loops seem ok to my ear. There might be some of the stuff you're looking underground, maybe like this? (another one for home)

You listen to some of these artists like Jason Mraz or Katy Perry and ask, really what is there not to like. Then you have artists like Alicia Keys, John Legend or John Mayer and they are pretty good song writers. There are some great bands putting out great albums: Radiohead, Muse, Three Doors Down, The Roots. And I even like Coldplay, always did. Used to go see them when they played the clubs. I don't listen to them anymore but it's good pop. You have these prog bands like Dream Theater, Mars Volta and Porcupine Tree that have been putting out quality albums, some for two decades, and are still largely under the radar.

Pop music is a very untalented and crap sounding general style. It is a style based around conformity and making catchy and repetitive lines....to me it sound like crap.

...it's the stuff that The Man and MTV want you to listen to, so someone ends up making loads of money.

Quote:

And I even like Coldplay

...Those plagiarisers...

Quote:

Radiohead

...more like experimental rock, and I don't see many pop songs written in 10/4.

...what I like about prog *insert style* acts is that they take some time to make good works and really using their skill and in that production process they make really good sounding music...

an example here, quote of Hagstrom from Meshuggah: "it doesn’t really matter if something is hard to play or not. The thing is, what does it do to your mind when you listen to it? Where does it take you?".

Atleast with drummers most of the time...but still I hate the musical colour of pop music, just terrible.

Maybe 'cause i'm a prog rock/prog metal fan, but hey...I don't think there would be many drummers on drummerworld.com that would enjoy pop music.

BD, I had all of Crimmo's albums up to 1974 before you were gleam in your father's eye :-P

Yet I enjoy lots of pop music. I was mad keen on Sgt Pepper in the late 60s and always enjoyed (at least some of) the sweet melodies on offer. I went through a metal phase (Deep Purple and Black Sabs, which was metal back then) and later discovered blues, RnB, soul, Motown, prog, jazz, fusion, ambience.

I never reject music by genre. I even like some country songs and grew to enjoy classical music in my 40s. I don't judge people by type either - by colour, race, creed, sexuality, politics or whatever. There's interest to be found in all arenas and also boredom IMO

I hate pop music, but I'm not saying those who make and play it are untalented. On the contrary, but I really think they should try to be more creative and at least put some soloes in there, so theres alittle individualism. Instead, they spew out the same crap. Godawful leadsynths, analog drums, auto-tune, fruity loops or singer songwrites(with acoustic guitars errrghh) either singing about how much they hate the opposite sex, how much they love them, how much theyre crying or how much money they're making. I mean come on, atleast try to supplement to the music instead of showing your bloated corporate self-image to 1000 of 14 year old boys or girls, who are looking up to you for an image. They should be trying to think independantly or whatever, but no. It's about money, respect and sex appeal. Instant self-gratification. Mass-produced garbage.
I'm not saying all pop-music is bad, but most of it is made just to get money from easily-manipulated people who is after(as i said before) instant gratification and also following the masses on whats the latest fashion and so on.

If the songs got hooks and a good looking vocalists(if you use sex as a selling point, you will sell even more!), you will be famous and pop(ular).

Don't even get me started on indie music. Whats the deal? You can afford a good recording, but you dont want to be good on your instrument and record through a sewage pipe so you can get that "indie-sound"? Give me a break! Pheew.. Glad thats out.

I hate pop music, but I'm not saying those who make and play it are untalented. On the contrary, but I really think they should try to be more creative and at least put some soloes in there, so theres alittle individualism. Instead, they spew out the same crap. Godawful leadsynths, analog drums, auto-tune, fruity loops or singer songwrites(with acoustic guitars errrghh) either singing about how much they hate the opposite sex, how much they love them, how much theyre crying or how much money they're making.
... Don't even get me started on indie music. Whats the deal? You can afford a good recording, but you dont want to be good on your instrument and record through a sewage pipe so you can get that "indie-sound"? Give me a break! Pheew.. Glad thats out.

/end rant.

A fine rant, Thaard. Take a bow. I don't agree, of course. You're talking about the least appealing pop. What about the good songs? Just going through my pop MP3 folder now ....

All have come up with great songs. Ok, I admit it. I'm a sucker for a great melody.

Indie is about rawness. Not everything needs to be spit polished, eh Thaardy old son me lad. Sure, some of it's too raw for me too, but when indie artists get it right, it cran be great. Don Caballero have a raw indie sound and they are a wow band. In Oz we had an indie group called The Hoodoo Gurus in the 80s and they were a rage live and in the studio.

Don't judge the genre, judge the piece.

And Strangelove, surely even you can agree on that. I see no reason why one can't be a Stanley Kubrick-style fan of the fabulously freaky AND enjoy good pop :)

All have come up with great songs. Ok, I admit it. I'm a sucker for a great melody.

Indie is about rawness. Not everything needs to be spit polished, eh Thaardy old son me lad. Sure, some of it's too raw for me too, but when indie artists get it right, it cran be great. Don Caballero have a raw indie sound and they are a wow band. In Oz we had an indie group called The Hoodoo Gurus in the 80s and they were a rage live and in the studio.

Don't judge the genre, judge the piece.

And Strangelove, surely even you can agree on that. I see no reason why one can't be a Stanley Kubrick-style fan of the fabulously freaky AND enjoy good pop :)

That's Polly's cracker for now

Thanks for the input. I´m not hating all pop. Pop thats well produced and appeals to a wide specter of listeners gets respect in my book(even if i don´t like the tune).

Sometimes theres a really catchy tune and I will sing with it without even knowing it, and as we´re now nearing christmas, the doom of last christmas is lurking. George Michael and wham in horrible harmony singing about last christmas. I hate that song, but each christmas i find myself humming it. Each time it results in me lying in the shower, crying, and yelling "pleeaase stoopp, nooo!".
Seriously though, people can discuss for ages on what music is best and why. It will still end up with someone being hurt, so I try to steer away. When theres no steering away, I always try to be as objective as possible, but alas it always ends in "oh yea? Well you can stick your 3 chords and butter-vocals where the sun don't shine. It hasn't even got metric modulation or a solo?" Etc etc. Although I like a bit of discussing sometimes.

-I get very irritated when I hear those idiot DJs on the local pop stations (I don't listen to them I just have freiends with bad taste). Not only do they play the same three crappy songs over and over again (Billboard's#1, #2, and #3) but they actually INTERRUPT the "Music" by vomiting forth their own generic comments. I don't care how great you think Lady Gaga is, you don't need to say so DURING THE "SONG"!

-Modern Punk. What is this crap? Punk is supposed to be driving and ruthless. Take no prisoners. There is nothing punk about "All the Small Things"! Nowadays its just an excuse for shlocky pop bands to only learn 2 chords.

-What is with the single mounted tom being WAY over to the left and angled totally flat. It's completely innaccessible. I know this because I tried it once thinking that it looked cool (Which I have to admit, it kinda does) and it sucked completely. Who would punish themselves like this in the name of style?

-What is with the single mounted tom being WAY over to the left and angled totally flat. It's completely innaccessible. I know this because I tried it once thinking that it looked cool (Which I have to admit, it kinda does) and it sucked completely. Who would punish themselves like this in the name of style?

I don't why the hell some "hip" drummers do that, I have tried to do that and from my perspective (sitting on the drum throne ofcourse) the tom profile is so tiny, maybe because the drummers are tall and it's easy for them...but how does that have anything to do with pop music?

Quote:

-I get very irritated when I hear those idiot DJs on the local pop stations (I don't listen to them I just have freiends with bad taste). Not only do they play the same three crappy songs over and over again (Billboard's#1, #2, and #3) but they actually INTERRUPT the "Music" by vomiting forth their own generic comments. I don't care how great you think Lady Gaga is, you don't need to say so DURING THE "SONG"!

...and those superstar DJs pretend to make their own music:

"Whoa, I'm so awesome, add a drum machine, and put one song over another and it's done"

Why not 3 chords if they sound good, Thaard? Why not two? We wouldn't want to dis Santana, do we? Plenty of two and three chord wonders - and this is a guy who's played with John McLaughlin. Maybe you don't like him but he's a serious talent.