Comments on: Giants overcommit to Hunter Pencehttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/28/giants-overcommit-to-hunter-pence/
Baseball. Baseball. And then a bit more baseball.Tue, 31 Mar 2015 18:53:04 +0000hourly1http://wordpress.com/By: temporarilyexiledhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/28/giants-overcommit-to-hunter-pence/comment-page-1/#comment-588172
Wed, 02 Oct 2013 14:13:10 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=497678#comment-588172Pretty simple really. Good farm system = not having to overpay free agents. Giants farm system = (
]]>By: marshallnbrownhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/28/giants-overcommit-to-hunter-pence/comment-page-1/#comment-586829
Mon, 30 Sep 2013 17:09:20 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=497678#comment-586829The “teammate” factor is unmeasure-able, and Pence is by far the best of any I’ve heard or read of in a long time. His ball-to-the-wall playing style and love of the game make everyone on the team much better players.
]]>By: paperlionshttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/28/giants-overcommit-to-hunter-pence/comment-page-1/#comment-586120
Sun, 29 Sep 2013 15:59:56 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=497678#comment-586120Yeah, just make assumptions, that usually works out from an understanding and predictive context. If someone in Boston says one deal affected the other, fine…but for all anyone knows Boston was already in that general area in terms of years and dollars and possibly willing to go higher.

So…your argument for markets being set by bad deals is “it might have happened this one time”.

]]>By: djpostlhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/28/giants-overcommit-to-hunter-pence/comment-page-1/#comment-586112
Sun, 29 Sep 2013 15:50:53 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=497678#comment-586112Sorry, not buying it. They gave Werth that deal night before winter meetings even started and entire baseball world said “if he’s getting that who knows how high Crawfod will go” and then that bad contract he got ensued.

And no, that isn’t a coincidence. Not the least damn bit of one.

]]>By: djpostlhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/28/giants-overcommit-to-hunter-pence/comment-page-1/#comment-586111
Sun, 29 Sep 2013 15:47:46 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=497678#comment-586111For a guy with a long history of mind-numbingly retarded statments this one takes the cake:

“You will find 2 good starters and 3 good relievers on all those teams for usually way less than $18 million. And that nearly every team that has a 500 record or better…”

Okay, run along and find me a team oer .500 who meets your criteria.

The Pirates come to mind, except….

— A.J. Burnett is making nearly $18M by himself and we’re talking FAs, not trades where someone else picks up the tab.

— Liriano is an absolute bargain, but only because AFTER they offered him a much bigger deal did his physical come back with some serious questions marks.

— Wandy is $11M per just by himself.

— The rest of the rotation has been either people who are in arbitration years (Compton & Locke) or someone who isn’t even at that point (Cole).

— Grilli is making $3M plus while Mazzarro, Wilson, Watson & Melcanon aren’t even arbitration eligible so that kind of value in your pen is literally years away from FA.

It definitly isn’t Oakland either because everyone in their rotation outside Colon is in arbitration (or pre-arbitration) years.

Are we seeing a pattern here yet?

Maybe that the only teams whose salaries meet your fantasy world scenario are ones with rosters made almost completely up of home grown talent rather than an Island of Misfit Toys styled reclamation projects through free agency?

]]>By: paperlionshttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/28/giants-overcommit-to-hunter-pence/comment-page-1/#comment-586102
Sun, 29 Sep 2013 15:40:03 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=497678#comment-586102How do you disentangle coincidence from “setting the market”? If there is not a series of similar contracts during the same or ensuing years, there is still no evidence that there was some standard “going rate” for a particular type of player.
]]>By: djpostlhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/28/giants-overcommit-to-hunter-pence/comment-page-1/#comment-586094
Sun, 29 Sep 2013 15:30:29 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=497678#comment-586094In general you’re right but damn if Jayson Werth’s deal didn’t set the market for Boston overpaying Carl Crawfrd the way they did. Might not have set the market in general, but it sure did affect that whole thing.
]]>By: djpostlhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/28/giants-overcommit-to-hunter-pence/comment-page-1/#comment-586091
Sun, 29 Sep 2013 15:28:07 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=497678#comment-586091There is an overpay…and then there are deals like this.

There is no “maybe” about this either.

You are 100% correct about every free agent being overpaid. It is the nature of the system. Guys tend to be underpaid the first 3-6 years, depending upon just how productive they are and how arbitration/extensions shake out. The teams get over early, the players get over late in their careers.

Look at Mike Trout. Two years at around a half million per and he has arguably been the most complete player in the game, near the top of every MVP list.

But even using that thought process this is a HUGE overpay. Nothing Pence has done in his career so far justifies this. Maybe half of this. Movign forward there is absolutely zero chance he’ll provide anywhere near the on field performance to dollars spent value of this deal. None.

Look at these players stats. They are good quality pitchers. And of course im leaving out some very good bullpen pitchers for all 3 teams. You went straight into Ace Pitcher moneys to prove your point. Middle and back end rotation pitching can be the difference from decent teams to playoff teams. And they need good pitching. And that isnt nearly as expensive as most think. Good GMs put $18M to better use than the Giants just did with Hunter Pence. Hell most teams payrolls are under $100M, why pay the 28th best player 1/5 of that…

Generally, it only happens when a player is very, VERY comfortable in his current situation and doesn’t want to leave and the team still wants to put up a respectable offer to avoid insulting him. You get the “home town discount” but it’s still good money at the end of the day.

The ones who don’t total $18M are all arbitration eligible or not even. Even the Rays come close because Price + Peralta + Rodney make about $16M total.

]]>By: dcfan4lifehttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/28/giants-overcommit-to-hunter-pence/comment-page-1/#comment-585867
Sun, 29 Sep 2013 01:15:05 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=497678#comment-585867Like i said, nearly every team with a winning record finds 2 good starters and 3 relievers at least for $18 million and less. Thats what a good GM does, and it clearly shows in their payroll and results. My argument is still the same, this is not money well spend considering Hunter Pence’s production. Could easily have been better used elsewhere.
]]>By: dcarroll73http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/28/giants-overcommit-to-hunter-pence/comment-page-1/#comment-585861
Sun, 29 Sep 2013 01:09:28 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=497678#comment-585861You know full well that the Dodgers were created by the Devil to make all life miserable. I keep waiting for a Faustian climax in which Donny Baseball turns away from his pact with the Devil.
]]>By: jwbiiihttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/28/giants-overcommit-to-hunter-pence/comment-page-1/#comment-585858
Sun, 29 Sep 2013 01:04:48 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=497678#comment-585858Sure, there are some potential bargains on that list, but they are either old, bad, coming off serious injuries, or more than one of the above. As the the staffs you mentioned, yes, you could trade for their arbitration eligible or pre-arb pitching, and they won’t cost you much money, but it will cost you through the nose in prospects. Something like Adam Jones (and others) for Erik Bedard.
]]>By: dcarroll73http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/28/giants-overcommit-to-hunter-pence/comment-page-1/#comment-585857
Sun, 29 Sep 2013 01:04:32 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=497678#comment-585857I think you’re ignoring how much any outfielder signing will effect the next round of outfielder signings. The “market” is not just RF. I think it might be a little bit of an overpay per year, but more importantly I think the number of years makes sense. He seems to be a durable player ($ per game looks better) and a great clubhouse guy so I have no problem with this amount (and I am a Giants fan from back to the days of ‘NY’ on the cap.)
]]>By: Caught Lookinghttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/28/giants-overcommit-to-hunter-pence/comment-page-1/#comment-585836
Sun, 29 Sep 2013 00:33:29 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=497678#comment-585836Pedroia’s recent deal.
]]>By: Anoesishttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/28/giants-overcommit-to-hunter-pence/comment-page-1/#comment-585827
Sun, 29 Sep 2013 00:19:48 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=497678#comment-585827And I thought it was all based on his stay at a Holiday Inn Express.
]]>By: dlhouse18http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/28/giants-overcommit-to-hunter-pence/comment-page-1/#comment-585826
Sun, 29 Sep 2013 00:18:01 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=497678#comment-585826A moment of silence for the death of the Giants’ newly resurrected salary freedom…
]]>By: dcfan4lifehttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/28/giants-overcommit-to-hunter-pence/comment-page-1/#comment-585820
Sun, 29 Sep 2013 00:01:21 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=497678#comment-585820That list is full of bargains cmon. But a better list would be to look at the pirates, nats, cardinals, braves, rangers, rays, cincy, oakland, cleveland, KC, baltimore and arizonas pitching rosters. You will find 2 good starters and 3 good relievers on all those teams for usually way less than $18 million. And that nearly every team that has a 500 record or better…
]]>By: biasedhomerhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/28/giants-overcommit-to-hunter-pence/comment-page-1/#comment-585798
Sat, 28 Sep 2013 22:51:44 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=497678#comment-585798Those are very rare to find.

But, there are some that seem fair, such as the Tulo extension or the Felix Hernandez contract.

]]>By: koufaxmitzvahhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/28/giants-overcommit-to-hunter-pence/comment-page-1/#comment-585789
Sat, 28 Sep 2013 22:35:20 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=497678#comment-585789So when the Dodgers had owners who bilked the fan base by cutting back on paying for stadium security while the owners were buying seven mansions in the LA area, that was, like, all cool and shit because the world didn’t stop spinning. But now that the Dodgers have an ownership who actually traded cheap talent in order to pick up huge contracts written by ballclubs who no longer wanted to pay that kind of money, they are evil and, singlehandedly, responsible for your distrust of an even ballfield?

Sweet. I hope the Dodgers continue to make your life miserable. I think you deserve it.

]]>By: xmatt0926xhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/28/giants-overcommit-to-hunter-pence/comment-page-1/#comment-585769
Sat, 28 Sep 2013 21:50:45 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=497678#comment-585769Never going to happen. Every good free agent will always get overpaid. It’s the cost of doing business for any team that really wants to compete. It’s not easy trying to do what Tampa, or Oakland occasionally does.

The question isn’t really whether or not the contract is an overpay or a “risk”. The only question is how much of an overpay it is. Is this a HUGE overpay for Pence? It may be. Who knows. We shall see.

]]>By: bbk1000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/28/giants-overcommit-to-hunter-pence/comment-page-1/#comment-585765
Sat, 28 Sep 2013 21:40:33 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=497678#comment-585765When I heard $90M for Pence I assumed it was a 100 year contract…..silly me…
]]>By: riverace19http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/28/giants-overcommit-to-hunter-pence/comment-page-1/#comment-585744
Sat, 28 Sep 2013 20:45:09 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=497678#comment-585744Could have signed him for 5 and $70 million. He did hit a home run last night though.
]]>By: jwbiiihttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/28/giants-overcommit-to-hunter-pence/comment-page-1/#comment-585741
Sat, 28 Sep 2013 20:42:10 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=497678#comment-585741Two good starters and three strong relievers for $18m AAV? Really? Got any names in mind? Here’s the menu:

]]>By: paperlionshttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/28/giants-overcommit-to-hunter-pence/comment-page-1/#comment-585733
Sat, 28 Sep 2013 20:28:50 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=497678#comment-585733There is no scenario in which this is a bargain. A single team can’t set “market” value, but each team only has 25 roster spots and 1 starter per position..if the Dodgers have a RF, which they do, then their existence is irrelevant to the market because they are not part of it.
]]>By: jkaflagghttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/28/giants-overcommit-to-hunter-pence/comment-page-1/#comment-585723
Sat, 28 Sep 2013 19:42:07 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=497678#comment-585723given where contracts could be heading now that the Dodgers are throwing money around, this could turn out to be market value at worst and a bargain at best…..assuming he isn’t traded the Dodgers could be paying $17 million the next few years for a 4th outfielder (Andre Ethier)…..
]]>By: terrific41http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/28/giants-overcommit-to-hunter-pence/comment-page-1/#comment-585722
Sat, 28 Sep 2013 19:40:55 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=497678#comment-585722Wow! Hunter hit the lottery!
]]>By: chiadamhttp://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/28/giants-overcommit-to-hunter-pence/comment-page-1/#comment-585719
Sat, 28 Sep 2013 19:30:41 +0000http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/?p=497678#comment-585719I assume this is five years and 90 million pesos.
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