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Re: Blue Night

I actually had a question about the blue, the timelines confused me..... I thought the blue night was a random event that hadn't been predicted and was also the that night Rin was conceived but in the letter to Rin about when Shirou took Kurikara he said it was to kill some kiddies and then it said that the Blue Night occurred after this.

Re: Blue Night

We know that Shiro and Mephisto knew before the Blue Night that Satan's kids would be born and that they would kill them with the Koumaken (probably the only sword that could destroy the twins, given how it held Karura prior). Rin and Yukio are 15, and the Kyoto trio said the Blue Night was 16 years ago, but they could've rounded up a year.

so, I'm betting the Blue Night was when the twins were born. However, Satan realized the advantage of his son and went searching for the best vessel to take his son back with, leading to how Satan murdered several holy men around the world. Shiro and Mephisto finally hid Rin's presence by sealing his powers into Kurikara, turning Rin into an ordinary infant and thwarting any attempt to find him. So the demon in chapter 1 (Astaroth in the anime) went searching from that point on for a sign of Satan's son ("searching for you so long, young master.")

Re: Blue Night

I always thought that them being 15 and the blue night being 16 years ago meant that that was the night they were conceived instead of born and it seemed to fit that on that night that Satan ran amuck he would do that and then the two were born 9 months later on a more concealed occasion so only Shiro and Mephisto knew about it. But then my theory doesn't account for how Shiro would have known Satan was going to appear on the blue night...

Now let's look at characters profiles (thanks to MaggieH and Nightmare078):

Rin Okumura - 15 years old - Date of birth: dec. 27
Rin and Yukio were conceived at the end of march.
and Ryuuji (Bon) Sugurou - 15 years old. Born August 20th.
He was conceived at the end of November, previous year.

Now, I'd say they were born the same year, but it may not be the case.

So the winter from Tatsuma's story is after the end of November and before August - it's obviously first trimester of Torako's pregnancy.
At the same time the events were taking place after the end of March when the twins were conceived... And before March and August I don't believe it'd be such a cold weather. So the winter from Tatsuma's letter is the winter of Rin and Yukio's birth.
It may seem strange, because since Rin and Bon are the same age, we could assume that they were born the same year, first Bon in August then the twins in December.

TIMELINE:
March, 16 years before beginning of the events from the manga - satan impregnates Yuri Egin
November the same year - Bon is conceived
December the same year - twins are born
winter, probably just after the twins are born - Shirou takes kurikara
August, before the Blue Night - Bon is born, because he was a kid when satan attacked
a couple of months after the events from Tatsuma's letter, so not long after Bon's birth - Blue Night happens

So the Blue Night happened when Rin and Yukio were a couple months old, but after Shirou and Mephisto took care of them.

......

Then again, writers are not necessarily good with math and dates. Remember when J.K.Rowling did a family tree of her characters? There were several cases of teenage fathers. >_>

Re: Blue Night

That's some really detailed information! I don't know why but for some reason I was under the impression that Bon was 16 ((that you've pointed out is wrong so so is my previous theory >_<). I was sure he was older than Rin and Yukio though.... If Bon was conceived in November than the scenario with Shirou and Tatsuma in Winter would match and then that could even match with my theory that the Blue Night was Rin's conception if it was in March and the Blue Night happened a few month after the koumaken stealing event. But then that brings me back to how would Shirou have known that would happen so I'm wrong there and now getting confused cuz I suck at dates and numbers in general!

Re: Blue Night

Well, I remember earthforge had a theory about Shiro and Mephisto knowing that satan would impregnate a human before he did it, so that would match the dates even better But I don't believe they would just wait and plan how to use poor mother and her children.

Since I'm already on timelines, I can update it again

1809 - Mephisto starts to serve the order; Myou Dha starts keeping numerous "secrets"
1859 - Fukaku suppresses the Impure King with the help of Karura who consequently leaves kurikara
...
March 1993 - satan impregnates Yuri Egin
November 1993 - Tatsuma's wife pregnant with Bon
27th December 1993 - Rin and Yukio are born
winter early 1994 - Shirou takes kurikara from the Myou Dha temple, twins are said to be exorcised
20th August 1994 - Bon is born
probably autumn 1994 - Blue Night happens, Tatsuma is a new ossama
...
2009 - events of the manga begin (between August and December 2009 Bon and the twins are 15 year old)

So, if the Blue Night was connected with satan's sons, then whatever he wanted to do with them, it took him almost a year since their birth. Much longer than Shirou and Mephisto did to seal and hide Rin.

Re: Blue Night

It may seem strange, because since Rin and Bon are the same age, we could assume that they were born the same year, first Bon in August then the twins in December.

TIMELINE:
March, 16 years before beginning of the events from the manga - satan impregnates Yuri Egin
November the same year - Bon is conceived
December the same year - twins are born

Huh? But.. you said Bon was older than the twins, but then you wrote that Bon was born after the twins... and... *brain shatters in a million pieces*

(Thanks for the info, btw!)

So, I think we can assume from the hints that the manga is currently in early to mid summer - April, June, or July. That would mean neither Bon nor the twins have had their birthdays yet. Thus in the year the manga is in, they are almost 16. The Blue Night was said to be 16 years ago, but that could be because Koneko rounded up the year (like how we'd say that 9-11 happened 10 years ago even though it's technically 9 years and 3 months ago). So I think the twins and Bon were born in the same year as the Blue Night.

So here's how it also could've gone:
March/August: Theft of Koumaken (there have been snows in March in Japan)
August: Bon is born
December: Twins are born.

We know the Blue Night happened after the theft of the Koumaken. Shiro and Mephisto could've known and plotted, but then why would Shiro be first determined to kill the kids? It seems like they only figured it out a short time before, so Fujimoto retrieved Koumaken to kill Satan's kids, but.... something... happened that made Shiro spare them and take them in as his own.

But what if there is more to the Blue Night than just Rin's birth? Maybe there were other things going on. I wonder if something else happened to enlighten Satan of the advantage of his son.

Re: Blue Night

Originally Posted by earthforge

Huh? But.. you said Bon was older than the twins, but then you wrote that Bon was born after the twins... and... *brain shatters in a million pieces*

That's just my wonky English again, sorry for that. I meant that it's natural to think Bon is older since they're together in the class and the same age according to their profiles, but dates seem to suggest otherwise.

Originally Posted by earthforge

So, I think we can assume from the hints that the manga is currently in early to mid summer - April, June, or July. That would mean neither Bon nor the twins have had their birthdays yet. Thus in the year the manga is in, they are almost 16. The Blue Night was said to be 16 years ago, but that could be because Koneko rounded up the year (like how we'd say that 9-11 happened 10 years ago even though it's technically 9 years and 3 months ago). So I think the twins and Bon were born in the same year as the Blue Night.

I agree with everything except one thing - I think the school started in autumn, just like any other school (it's also a school for non-exorcists), and since we haven't seen winter yet - it's still between August (Bon's 15'th birthday) and December (twins' 16'th birthday). Just like in their profiles.

Now, you reminded me that Koneko said the Blue Night was 16 years earlier. According to my timeline it should be exactly 15 years :/ But it just doesn't match! Bon is suppossed to be 15 (or 16 if it's later in the manga) and Koneko says (during one of the first lessons) the BN was 16 years earlier. Bon was an infant (or older) when satan attacked so it's no way he was 15 anytime in the manga. So I think the author made a mistake here.

Originally Posted by earthforge

So here's how it also could've gone:
March/August: Theft of Koumaken (there have been snows in March in Japan)
August: Bon is born
December: Twins are born and the Blue Night happens.

I added the BN in italics where I think you wanted to put it. I know the temple is in the mountains and I have experienced snow even this May (lost a couple of my favorite plants), but - why would the author draw such a cold weather if it was late March, and more likely April? I think the weather screams December/February. And even if it was March - satan has just impregnated Yuri who still have nine months to survive with his spawn slowly growing inside her and Shirou is already talking about killing children and even knows there's more than one! So I think the twins were born before Shirou stole the sword.

Originally Posted by earthforge

We know the Blue Night happened after the theft of the Koumaken. Shiro and Mephisto could've known and plotted, but then why would Shiro be first determined to kill the kids? It seems like they only figured it out a short time before, so Fujimoto retrieved Koumaken to kill Satan's kids, but.... something... happened that made Shiro spare them and take them in as his own.

But what if there is more to the Blue Night than just Rin's birth? Maybe there were other things going on. I wonder if something else happened to enlighten Satan of the advantage of his son.

I think it was Tatsuma who made Shirou realize that killing kiddies is evil, no matter who their father is. Besides, I think the enlightening came after Rin's birth and before he could make his move Rin was already hidden. So it took satan almost a year to try to find him in the temple.

Re: Why does Satan want Rin?

Originally Posted by Kryanka

My theory is that she was (is?) very talented but still very young and for that reason her rank was so low.

And no, impregnation happening during the Blue Night is just a theory, which is IMHO incorrect. After reading the chapter with Tatsuma's memoirs I think the Blue Night happened almost a year after Rin's birth.

I like this theory! Something that exists in both worlds may be a bridge between them.

Nope it was definetly stated that the Blue Night was 16 years prior to the start of the series. Rin is 15 currently. So the odds are that probably was the night his mom got knocked up by Satam

Re: Why does Satan want Rin?

Nope it was definetly stated that the Blue Night was 16 years prior to the start of the series. Rin is 15 currently. So the odds are that probably was the night his mom got knocked up by Satam

Yup, I thought so too before Tatsuma's story. Here I explained why I changed my mind. In short - twins were born in December and Bon in August, according to their profiles. So during the winter from Tatsuma's story (a couple of months before the Blue Night) they were either just born or not even conceived. Shirou talks about killing kids so it must be the first option. Here is how I think it happened:

March 1993 - satan impregnates Yuri Egin
November 1993 - Tatsuma's wife pregnant with Bon
27th December 1993 - Rin and Yukio are born
winter early 1994 - Shirou takes kurikara from the Myou Dha temple, twins are said to be exorcised
20th August 1994 - Bon is born
probably autumn 1994 - Blue Night happens, Tatsuma is a new ossama
...
2009 - events of the manga begin (between August and December 2009 Bon and the twins are 15 year old)

Re: Blue Night

Originally Posted by Kryanka

That's just my wonky English again, sorry for that. I meant that it's natural to think Bon is older since they're together in the class and the same age according to their profiles, but dates seem to suggest otherwise.

More of just the confusing dates. Everything would make sense to me... if Bon wasn't born in August. Just confuses me.

Quote:

I agree with everything except one thing - I think the school started in autumn, just like any other school (it's also a school for non-exorcists), and since we haven't seen winter yet - it's still between August (Bon's 15'th birthday) and December (twins' 16'th birthday). Just like in their profiles.

I don't think so. The manga has only taken three months, and they are currently on summer break (traditionally that's around mid-July and is about two months). That means we're approaching Bon's birthday, but haven't passed it yet.

Quote:

Now, you reminded me that Koneko said the Blue Night was 16 years earlier. According to my timeline it should be exactly 15 years :/ But it just doesn't match! Bon is suppossed to be 15 (or 16 if it's later in the manga) and Koneko says (during one of the first lessons) the BN was 16 years earlier. Bon was an infant (or older) when satan attacked so it's no way he was 15 anytime in the manga. So I think the author made a mistake here.

All that was said was "the place was ruined before Bon was even old enough to walk and talk", which could mean he was an infant or unborn. The basic implication was that Bon didn't even see the temple go, and yet he still obsesses over it.

Quote:

I added the BN in italics where I think you wanted to put it. I know the temple is in the mountains and I have experienced snow even this May (lost a couple of my favorite plants), but - why would the author draw such a cold weather if it was late March, and more likely April? I think the weather screams December/February. And even if it was March - satan has just impregnated Yuri who still have nine months to survive with his spawn slowly growing inside her and Shirou is already talking about killing children and even knows there's more than one! So I think the twins were born before Shirou stole the sword.

Lol, I know. Global climate change - here in "sunny" california, we didn't start getting summer until 5 days ago. Up till then it was freezing.

I'm more inclined to believe that Bon's birthday was a mistake if there have been any thus far, since I'd love to say that:

I think it was Tatsuma who made Shirou realize that killing kiddies is evil, no matter who their father is. Besides, I think the enlightening came after Rin's birth and before he could make his move Rin was already hidden. So it took satan almost a year to try to find him in the temple.

I don't think so. I believe Shiro from the beginning wouldn't be able to kill Rin, because as Tatsuma said, he had a good heart. Shiro seemed to be trying to get himself comfortable with the thought of killing the twins.

I really don't get why it'd take a year for Satan to find Rin, since after Rin was turned human, it seems that no demon could find him. Only when his demon powers reawoke did it lead to the demons tracking him again. I think that Satan was alerted when Rin was close to birth, since I suspect Rin's powers were unsealed at that point and thoroughly uncontrolled.

Re: Blue Night

Originally Posted by earthforge

I don't think so. The manga has only taken three months, and they are currently on summer break (traditionally that's around mid-July and is about two months). That means we're approaching Bon's birthday, but haven't passed it yet.

GAAAAAAHHH!
*brain explodes*
I give up, it's just all messed up! Here we have a winter that shouldn't be there and there we should have a winter and we don't!! What. The. Heck.

Originally Posted by earthforge

All that was said was "the place was ruined before Bon was even old enough to walk and talk", which could mean he was an infant or unborn. The basic implication was that Bon didn't even see the temple go, and yet he still obsesses over it.

Ah, you're right, he was talking about the temple, not the BN. Still, I'd interpret it as "Bon was (alive), but not old enough etc", so that he was an infant. Although I'm not gonna argue with a native English about that. Either way, I think that by "ruined" Koneko meant that the temple lost their followers which was not long after the BN. So no matter if Bon was born before or after the BN, he would be an infant when the temple was actually "ruined".

Originally Posted by earthforge

Lol, I know. Global climate change - here in "sunny" california, we didn't start getting summer until 5 days ago. Up till then it was freezing.

*rotfl* Really? I thought it's always hot in California. What does it mean "freezing", 20C/68F?
Makes you wonder why they called it "global warming" though.

Originally Posted by earthforge

I'm more inclined to believe that Bon's birthday was a mistake if there have been any thus far, since I'd love to say that:

I dunno... To change the month of Bon's birthday only to have two months before the BN instead of one, just to be able to say it may be called "a couple" of months...

Originally Posted by earthforge

I really don't get why it'd take a year for Satan to find Rin, since after Rin was turned human, it seems that no demon could find him. Only when his demon powers reawoke did it lead to the demons tracking him again. I think that Satan was alerted when Rin was close to birth, since I suspect Rin's powers were unsealed at that point and thoroughly uncontrolled.

Well, he said that at first he didn't care. If he didn't care for one and a half year after impregnating Yuri and then thought of koumaken, the only thing able to seal Rin, then the Blue Night would happen because satan tried to find the sword hoping that Rin is hidden close to it. It's not like I'm sure my version is correct, but I don't like the image of woman giving birth while satan breaks havoc in the same building :/

Re: Blue Night

I sympathize, I feel my brain has become tenderized by all this thinking...

Originally Posted by Kryanka

Ah, you're right, he was talking about the temple, not the BN. Still, I'd interpret it as "Bon was (alive), but not old enough etc", so that he was an infant. Although I'm not gonna argue with a native English about that. Either way, I think that by "ruined" Koneko meant that the temple lost their followers which was not long after the BN. So no matter if Bon was born before or after the BN, he would be an infant when the temple was actually "ruined".

I thought they had been talking about the Blue Night, but good point.

Quote:

*rotfl* Really? I thought it's always hot in California. What does it mean "freezing", 20C/68F?
Makes you wonder why they called it "global warming" though.

Actually, 4.4C/40F. It's like we only had two seasons, summer and winter, since now it's 27C/80F. (Global warming was because of the overall ice core measurements, which are independent of seasonal variations.) *turns off scientist-mode*

Quote:

I dunno... To change the month of Bon's birthday only to have two months before the BN instead of one, just to be able to say it may be called "a couple" of months...

Well, he said that at first he didn't care. If he didn't care for one and a half year after impregnating Yuri and then thought of koumaken, the only thing able to seal Rin, then the Blue Night would happen because satan tried to find the sword hoping that Rin is hidden close to it. It's not like I'm sure my version is correct, but I don't like the image of woman giving birth while satan breaks havoc in the same building :/

What I thought was Satan didn't give a crap when he did it with Yuri Egin, but as their birth date approached, it dawned on him the advantages. Then he tried to find a body suitable enough to retrieve Rin in, and killed many of the exorcists around the world. He never was able to get Shiro, so he kept pursuing Shiro's body since.

We're both probably wrong and it's likely something in between, but we're just guessing anyways.

Re: Blue Night

Originally Posted by earthforge

What I thought was Satan didn't give a crap when he did it with Yuri Egin, but as their birth date approached, it dawned on him the advantages. Then he tried to find a body suitable enough to retrieve Rin in, and killed many of the exorcists around the world. He never was able to get Shiro, so he kept pursuing Shiro's body since.

That part about finding a suitable body is probably true. But what I understood was that satan possessed only monks from Myou Dha temple and nobody else - so he wasn't just looking for any body, he was looking in the temple. And the only connection between Rin and the temple we heard of by now is koumaken.

Maybe we are looking too deep into it? Maybe satan just wanted to kill some monks and he picked Myou Dha?