Canola Follow-up

Canola Follow-up - 08/13/1309:05 PM

I wasn't going to post this after the disaster the original thread turned into, but I just reviewed my PMs and have over a dozen requests for updates. I don't have time to update everyone individually, so it looks like I'm doing a follow-up thread anyway. I appreciate, in advance, the lack of personal attacks and name-calling, thank you.

So I haven't quite made it to 1500 miles on the 25% canola blend yet and I'll be dumping it and sending in a sample when I do. I also haven't driven much in the last 2.5 months, a total of maybe 50 miles in the 9 weeks leading up to last week, about 100 miles since then. Prior to parking it, the engine was running great, the oil seemed to have a lot of life left in it (I wish I had send in a sample at 1300 miles so I had numbers to back this up), smelled like motor oil, felt like motor oil, looked like good clean oil, engine running great. I'd posit that I could have run this oil to 6k, or farther, had I not parked it. When I have reason to drive more frequently again, I'll repeat the test and hopefully provide results to back that up.

Now the bad: Like I said, everything was going great until I let it sit and rot for over 2 months. Just before I started driving it regularly again (last week), the oil had begun smelling rancid, now feels a little thicker than it probably should, has darkened up a lot, I can tell it's oxidized quite a bit, and the engine is definitely running like it's due for an oil change.

This is all subjective, of course, since I haven't sent my sample in yet. No worries, that'll come soon enough; I want to run this oil up to 1.5k, which will happen tonight, first.

It is also important to note that this oil was put in on February 3rd, so it's a bit over 6 months old. A decent OCI for a vehicle that's been driven, and driven hard. I stress my engine and, by extension, my oil, with a heavy foot, frequent redline, and extended runs at high RPMs. I've had Mobil 1 graciously bow out ofter only 3 months of service and this oil was still going strong after 3.5, until I parked it.

My (inconclusive) analysis, at this point, is that canola is a good (I'd like to say excellent, but won't without numbers to back it up) additive for a daily driven vehicle, but horrible for a short-tripper or rarely-driven car. My basis for this is the consistency of performance and lack of apparent degradation, even under high-stress, high-load driving conditions, while I was frequently driving the car, coupled with the rapid deterioration of the oil when left to sit.

Would I run this again? Absolutely! And I will, when I have reason to drive it at least 3 or 4 time a week. My next fill, however, will be 4 quarts of 5w30 Royal Purple, which I know, from experience, will last much better in storage.

Don't bother jumping me for not posting a UOA; just stay tuned and you'll see it for yourself.

Thanks to all who were interested in this experiment and all who will take interest in my results.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/13/1309:41 PM

Vegetable oil even gummed up my hair clippers. It would never cross my mind to use it in a car's engine. I would be very interested in seeing the inside of that oil filter.

It was only after much research and contemplation that I decided to try this. I used a very stout oil (Rotella T6) as a base and only mixed in 25% canola; running 100% just wasn't in the cards for me.

Some of the uses canola has seen (military service -- and not for cooking -- and as a heavy machinery lube) are much more demanding than the inside of your typical engine. These are constant-use, minimal-maintenance scenarios, which seems to coincide with my experience; this oil seemed like it was gonna last dang near forever until I stopped using it for a while.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/13/1309:56 PM

This is something fresh and interesting. What a relief getting away from the typical Auto-RX-Kreen-MMO discussions. Not that I mind discussing Kreen and MMO but it is nice to hear about something new. And I had no idea Canola oil was being used by the military, etc.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/14/1304:59 AM

We need a jazzy name for this concoction as we can't allow "Caterham blend" to have all of the spotlight. How about RoNula blend or Kembro C6 or Cantella?

Nope, no VOA, I wasn't thinking that far ahead. When I revisit this after my next OCI, I'll send in a VOA sample, so we have something to compare with. I also plan to drive at least 30min/day and send in a sample every 1500 miles next time. I guess I'm sticking with the sample every 1500 miles this time around, too, just draining at the first interval.

Which... by the way... I fell short of by approximately 5 miles tonight. That should leave me enough mileage to get the engine warmed up before I drain it.

As for the name, if we want to stay true to the makeup of the oil, Brassica T6 (Canola is made from a specific strain of rapeseed, or Brassica napus) sounds good to me. Using the genus and species spares us the negative connotations that would be associated with the common name, which would have lead to Rapetella C6, or another even more off-color name that's too risque for this forum (hint: ****lube).

Ahem... Brassica T6. I like it.

Of course, I'd like to make sure it's worthwhile before I get attached to it enough to officially name it.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/14/1306:28 AM

We need a jazzy name for this concoction as we can't allow "Caterham blend" to have all of the spotlight. How about RoNula blend or Kembro C6 or Cantella?

I vote of "Cantella."

I'm surprised that the oil went rancid. I was thinking with a 25 percent mixture that the 75 percent regular oil would kill any bugs that decided to dine on the 25 percent veggie oil.

I have two electric hair clippers and use olive oil to keep them lubed. One set gums up from time to time while the other has never given me a problem.

I have used USED cooking oil, (filtered before I used it) as a bar and chain lube for my chain saw which gummed up within minutes of operation. Using FRESH cooking oil however has given me no problem at all.

What I would like to see during this experiment would be the inside of the oil filter and the valve covers removed. If it's possible, drop the oil pan as well and see what the pick up on the oil pump looks like.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/14/1310:33 AM

Many thanks for the update. As you may remember, I posted a link to a study in Postal vehicles where they used vege oil based lubricants. It worked great except for one thing: short OCI.I guess you came across the very same limitation.I guess those omega fatty acids are not good for engines.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/14/1312:14 PM

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/14/1312:23 PM

OK, I can't justify "crazy" but the OP is putting canola oil in his engine. Now the Germans did a lot of weird stuff because they had to, but really... substituting what is arguably the best motor oil ever produced with canola oil is a bit... crazy.

And you want to supplement the canola oil with LC20? Please inform me how this is better for my engine than running M1 5W-30. Please tell me what BMW or Toyota or Ford or GM or Honda or Kia or Chrysler or Audi or Mercedes would say if I told them I was using canola oil.

Please.

Originally Posted By: jhMalibu

I appreciated your willingness to try new things and didn't understand why people got so crazy.

Could you dope the RoNula (I like that one) with LC20 to slow down oxidation?

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/14/1312:48 PM

Originally Posted By: kschachn

And you want to supplement the canola oil with LC20? Please inform me how this is better for my engine than running M1 5W-30. Please tell me what BMW or Toyota or Ford or GM or Honda or Kia or Chrysler or Audi or Mercedes would say if I told them I was using canola oil.

You're in the oil Additive section. No one said this is better than M1. Congrats, you listed major car manufacturers, but I don't really care what they would say.

The OP is free to do what he wants and some people (me) appreciate their willingness to experiment. Others (you) don't. Go pick a fight somewhere else.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/14/1312:57 PM

Well, you can call it an additive but at the 25% level I would not. That is more of a substitution, on most of my cars that would be a quart or more.

And you don't care what the automotive manufacturer would say? And it's being put into an engine anyway?

I'm not picking a fight. But you are delusional if you don't think that a 25% canola oil blend in a modern automotive engine is going to be greeted with "wow what a great idea". This is a discussion board, not a cheerleading board for any random idea that might be posted.

And yes I would anticipate that if you are doing this experiment, it is for some reason. A reason that includes some perceived deficiency with today's PCMO that is corrected or improved by the use of canola oil.

Continuing to berate me for questioning you does not help your cause. Rational explanations and discussion would.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/14/1301:26 PM

Quote:

Some of the uses canola has seen (military service -- and not for cooking -- and as a heavy machinery lube) are much more demanding than the inside of your typical engine. These are constant-use, minimal-maintenance scenarios, which seems to coincide with my experience; this oil seemed like it was gonna last dang near forever until I stopped using it for a while.

Maybe so, but I am pretty sure these are additized oils with special anti-oxidant packages, not virgin Canola oils.

It will be interesting to see your baseline VOA, UOA's, and observation on the visual properties of this mix.

I suspect what you are now seeing is a polymerization of the Canola oil mix.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/14/1302:15 PM

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/14/1303:59 PM

Originally Posted By: MolaKule

Quote:

Some of the uses canola has seen (military service -- and not for cooking -- and as a heavy machinery lube) are much more demanding than the inside of your typical engine. These are constant-use, minimal-maintenance scenarios, which seems to coincide with my experience; this oil seemed like it was gonna last dang near forever until I stopped using it for a while.

Maybe so, but I am pretty sure these are additized oils with special anti-oxidant packages, not virgin Canola oils.

It will be interesting to see your baseline VOA, UOA's, and observation on the visual properties of this mix.

I suspect what you are now seeing is a polymerization of the Canola oil mix.

The only references I find to the military using canola was to lube steam engines.

Castor oil is an excellent lubricant for internal combustion engines, the best that could found up until the '70s. It could keep the 400 gross hp/L Alfa Romeo F1 engine alive in 1951. The downside to the use in internal combustion engines was that it was a one shot deal. Everyone using castor had to drain the oil hot at the end of each race as the oil would gel when it returned to ambient temperatures.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/14/1304:33 PM

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/14/1305:51 PM

Good to see you back.We all know the potential downside risk, so there's no need for anyone to post about it.Most of us want to see how this blend does in your engine.If you'd wanted to run straight T6, you would have.You wanted to try something unique and you did.We'll all learn more from this than we would from another boring UOA of some Honda run 5K on T6/M1/PP/PU/Syntec/Synpower/G-Oil/RP/Edge/SSO or whatever.Good for you that you did some research and are putting it to practical trial.I'm really interested in seeing your UOA.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/14/1308:47 PM

Originally Posted By: edhackett

Castor oil is an excellent lubricant for internal combustion engines, the best that could found up until the '70s. It could keep the 400 gross hp/L Alfa Romeo F1 engine alive in 1951. The downside to the use in internal combustion engines was that it was a one shot deal. Everyone using castor had to drain the oil hot at the end of each race as the oil would gel when it returned to ambient temperatures.

Ed

Didn't they use castor oil in airplane engines during world war one? If so, did they drain them after every mission? Just curious.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/14/1308:50 PM

And lets agree to be civil in this discussion. If you're not interested in the experiment, don't comment on the "insanity," "craziness" or "stupidity" of what the OP in trying to do. Let's keep in mind he's not asking any of us to fund this experiment and it happens to be on his dime. He wants to share the results with us and I think that's pretty cool. Let's all be cool as well.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/14/1308:55 PM

Originally Posted By: GreeCguy

Originally Posted By: edhackett

Castor oil is an excellent lubricant for internal combustion engines, the best that could found up until the '70s. It could keep the 400 gross hp/L Alfa Romeo F1 engine alive in 1951. The downside to the use in internal combustion engines was that it was a one shot deal. Everyone using castor had to drain the oil hot at the end of each race as the oil would gel when it returned to ambient temperatures.

Ed

Didn't they use castor oil in airplane engines during world war one? If so, did they drain them after every mission? Just curious.

There are other reasons that would have tended against the use of the rotary into more modern times and the greatest of these would be its enormous appetite for oil. The fuel was mixed with air as it was introduced through a primitive "carburettor" - usually in the tail end of the crankshaft. Via this route it made its way to the crankcase where is picked up all of the oil that was loose. When the fuel mixture was introduced to the combustion chamber it was very much a mix of fuel, air, and castor oil.

The imperfect combustion of any engine is not equalled by that of a rotary. The castor oil, being the least combustible of the two liquids, was spewed out into the atmosphere. It would be but a short time before the whole of the slipstream area of the aeroplane would be well coated with castor oil. The pilot would be soaking up oil at a fairly rapid rate as well. It is arguable that the reason for cowling the engine had as much to do with trying to control the wildly spewing oil as it was to do with the concepts of streamlining. The usual practice was to direct the oil underneath the fuselage by opening up the bottom of the cowl.

Total Loss Oil system. Centrifugal force throws lubricating oil out after it's first trip through the engine. It was usually castor oil that could be readily combined with the fuel. (The romantic-looking scarf the pilot wore was actually a towel used to wipe the slimy stuff off his goggles!)

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/15/1307:59 PM

Originally Posted By: kschachn

So I'm a tool for asking "why" but you are not?

For starters, you said crazy (twice) in your first post.Then you followed it up by delusional and summed it up as some random idea. Some people might find it insulting.But you are right, I forgot to say please.I apologize.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/15/1308:50 PM

The canola-based motor oil project was initiated in 1996 in response to a need for a motor oil compatible with, and nontoxic to, fragile ecosystems. The oils are composed primarily of high oleic canola as the base oil. This oil is combined with sources of hydroxy fatty acids and wax esters or estilides. Additional modifications include the inclusion of bio-based pour-point depressants and supplemental antioxidants.

The canola-based motor oil project was initiated in 1996 in response to a need for a motor oil compatible with, and nontoxic to, fragile ecosystems. The oils are composed primarily of high oleic canola as the base oil. This oil is combined with sources of hydroxy fatty acids and wax esters or estilides. Additional modifications include the inclusion of bio-based pour-point depressants and supplemental antioxidants.

Italics are mine for emphasis.

Yup, exactly. The patent referenced in that work, US 5,888,947 which covers specific compositions of vegetable based oils even references this problem:The percentage of long chain fatty acids also responds tothe function of time. After 25 hours, the percentage of longchain fatty acids changes from an estimated 95 percent of theoil composition to 90 percent. At 40 hours, the long chaincomponent measures 80 to 85 percent of the oil composition.What is suspected to be occurring is a mechanical fracturingor dimeriZation of the polyunsaturated fatty acid components of the invention. This fracturing may be due to a lossof antioxidants or a loss of antioxidant function at theunsaturated sites.

Specifically canola oil which contains high percentage of unsaturated fatty acids is highly susceptible to oxidation, especially at elevated temperatures. Without a highly tuned concentration of antioxidants the oil will be likely to break down easily. While the temperatures of storage in an engine will cause very slow breakdown, the elevated temperatures of a running engine will speed the process.

The canola-based motor oil project was initiated in 1996 in response to a need for a motor oil compatible with, and nontoxic to, fragile ecosystems. The oils are composed primarily of high oleic canola as the base oil. This oil is combined with sources of hydroxy fatty acids and wax esters or estilides. Additional modifications include the inclusion of bio-based pour-point depressants and supplemental antioxidants.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/17/1307:26 PM

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/18/1302:28 PM

Wow, so... I don't know where to start...

I guess a good place to start would be "why is this in the additive section" since there seems to be at least one person in this thread who says 25% does not an additive make. AutoRX comes in 12oz bottles and the company has recently been pushing a "fast track" dosage of two bottles; 24oz is 25% of the oil capacity of a Prius, within reasonable margins of error. Marvel Mystery Oil advises that 25% is the most you should use and, in fact, advises a replacing a quart of oil with MMO in some cases (of course, observing the 25% guideline and reducing the substitution accordingly), which just so happens to be 25% of most sumps. Those are just two examples, but there are more; and those are additives. Since I am adding Canola to motor oil, it is also an additive; were I using mostly Canola and shoring it up with a little bit of motor oil, I would agree, this would not belong in the additive section.

There seem to be a few here who insist that all I've managed to do is shorten my OCI. There are a few others who ask what I hoped to gain by doing this. Well, the short version is "go find the original thread". The slightly longer version is: knowledge. I hope to learn from this. Does Canola, being an ester stock, provide any benefit when mixed into a non-ester oil? Does it clean up carbon, sludge, or varnish? Will it decoke or unstick piston rings and restore compression? Will it extend, shorten, or not affect my OCI? Will my engine explode or will it not even notice the Canola at all? I really didn't know what to expect from this, and I still don't, other than being fairly certain that the last question wouldn't be answered with a bang.

Regarding shortening my OCI, I'd like to point out that I have seen an increase and evening of compression on all 4 cylinders, across several tests, done both warm and cold, which indicates to me that the stuck rings (caused by clogged oil return holes in the pistons of this generation of the 1ZZ-FE) have been unstuck, which likely means the oil return holes have been cleared, as well. This is further backed up by the reduced oil consumption (also caused by the clogged return holes) I have seen over the course of this experiment. That's good enough for me to say it's had a positive effect, but if someone wants to insist on a teardown, I have a local shop who I trust to do the work and get the engine back together in working order without ripping me off; you're welcome to foot the bill. Is it not typical for an additive that increases cleaning performance of an oil to also decrease the OCI when used in an engine that needs a bit of spring cleaning? I think it is and I think you all know that.

So I know now that the Canola has at least helped to clean up some carbon and varnish that were causing my engine to burn oil and lose compression, so that answers the first 3 questions. The 4th is yet to be answered, and I'll explain why shortly. The 5th is a resounding "neither", as it hasn't exploded but it certainly did notice the Canola.

I've only been adding gas to my tank for the last few months, since I wasn't driving it much (well, before yesterday's 160 mile romp) and filled up yesterday, after a little over 550 miles; 27.25MPG averaged over 20.213 gallons with the AC on. My mileage had gotten down to about 20MPG while it was still cool enough out that I didn't need AC. Compression can do that, cleaning out oil passages (better lubrication) can do that, a change in driving style (trust me there was none) can do that. What can't do that? Pure chance. If it was a 2-3MPG change, I'd go ahead and chalk it up to differences in traffic, but a 7MPG (that's 35% ignoring the fact that I typically lose 10% when I run the AC) or 9MPG (50%, accounting for the 10% loss I typically see when I run the AC) increase indicates that some situation within the engine has been corrected.

Over the last week of driving the vehicle regularly, I noticed the oil losing its rancid smell and dark color and becoming less sticky; my engine also stopped sounding like it was begging me to change out this oil. I then recalled that esters absorb water from the surrounding air, which would certainly cause all of those issues. After yesterday's 160 mile romp, the oil is back to the light amber color it was before I parked the car for 2 months, feels just as slick as I remember it, and once again smells like motor oil.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/18/1302:41 PM

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/18/1302:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Clevy

Awesome. Thanks for giving this a shot.

You're quite welcome. All of you (even those who would rather belittle what I'm doing than just ignore me).

There was one user who said they'd like to see the inside of my oil filter. I've got good news for you! Since my filter sits vertically, that's how I plan to retrieve my oil sample when I send it in. When I drop the filter to take that sample, I plan to replace it with a new filter, so I should have no problem tearing the old one down.

As for the user(s) asking for valvetrain pics, those will come too. I pull the VC at every OCI.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/18/1305:50 PM

Originally Posted By: KeMBro2012

There was one user who said they'd like to see the inside of my oil filter. I've got good news for you! Since my filter sits vertically, that's how I plan to retrieve my oil sample when I send it in. When I drop the filter to take that sample, I plan to replace it with a new filter, so I should have no problem tearing the old one down.

That was me. I wouldn't belittle you, but I do have concerns seeing how veg oil messed up some simple hair clippers. Maybe in additive form is a diff story. Good luck!

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/18/1307:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Brule

Originally Posted By: KeMBro2012

There was one user who said they'd like to see the inside of my oil filter. I've got good news for you! Since my filter sits vertically, that's how I plan to retrieve my oil sample when I send it in. When I drop the filter to take that sample, I plan to replace it with a new filter, so I should have no problem tearing the old one down.

That was me. I wouldn't belittle you, but I do have concerns seeing how veg oil messed up some simple hair clippers. Maybe in additive form is a diff story. Good luck!

Yeah, I'd never use it straight. [censored], I wouldn't use it as an additive in most oils. T6 was a good base for this first test because its additive package is overkill, by a large margin, for my application, so diluting it by 25% shouldn't reduce its effectiveness over the course of a reasonable OCI (I'm already past the 6 month mark, which is when I'd normally dump a dino oil regardless of mileage, but more on that later). My next test may be done with Mobil 1 or Pennzoil Platinum or Ultra, since those oils also considerably exceed the requirements of my application.

Outside of a sealed container, all oils degrade. Dino oils typically shouldn't be run for more than 6 months as they'll have oxidized quite a bit in that time. Synthetics will vary by base stock, but 9-12mo isn't unreasonable. Of course, this all depends on mileage and application, as well; high mileage or frequent short trips would indicate a 3mo or shorter OCI for most dino oils and 6mo tops for most synthetics.

Again, I'm at the 6mo mark now; T6 is one of those synthetics that I'd run for a year, or 7.5k miles, whichever comes first. Since I've diluted it by 25% with a no-additive oil, 9 months or 5625 miles seems a reasonable cutoff. For the purpose of experimentation, I intend to be a little more detailed than "this just feels like what I should be doing" and will base my OCI on OUAs, the first of which will be taken at 3000 miles, or 9mo, whichever happens to come along first.

Subjectively, my engine is running better right now than it has in the two years I've owned this car, and certainly better than it was running a week ago. It used to lug at idle with the AC running and the resistance of the power steering when I'd turn the wheel would affect engine load in a noticeable way; neither of these things occur any longer. I've also had to re-learn how to drive this car; I've found myself having to consciously try not to squeal the tires taking off from a dead stop and I can now squeal the tires shifting into 2nd and make them chirp shifting into 3rd without over-revving. All of these improvements can be attributed to increased (and more even) compression, which can be attributed to the unsticking of stuck rings, which can be attributed to better oil flow through the oil return holes in the piston heads, which can be attributed to those holes having been cleaned out, which can be attributed only to the oil used, which would include any additives; in this case, Canola.

Unfortunately, for those of you who will demand another test without the Canola (just straight T6), I am not willing to run the series of long dino OCIs that would be required to re-clog the oil return holes and re-stick the rings, and essentially wreck the engine I've just restored, just to run that test. Likewise, I'm not willing to run a 5w40 straight in this engine, which calls for 5w30, as it has variable valve timingwhich makes use of oil pressure; varying the viscosity too much will affect that. Any of you are more than welcome to find me an oil-burning 8th gen Corolla for a dry run and I'll happily foot the bill for 4qt of T6 and 2 tanks of gas (that's how long it took my T6+Canola blend to resolve the issue). Of course, the car would be yours to keep afterward, regardless of outcome.

If anyone still wants to tell me what I'm doing wrong here, go right ahead. I'm not selling anything (I don't work for Shell or Wesson) and I'm happy enough with the way my experiment is going, so for all anyone may say I'm doing wrong, I'm clearly doing something very right. I'm not here for validation, I'm here to share my experience.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/19/1311:14 AM

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/19/1301:26 PM

Great news on the oil consumption improvement. Somehow I missed that part in your original thread. How much oil consumption and how much improvement are we talking about?Did you use anything for oil consumption before (MMO, kreen, etc)?Was this your first OCI with HDEO?

Also, did I hear correctly you plan to use oil from filter for UOA? Don't, as that will give you elevated wear metals and particles.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/19/1307:44 PM

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek

Great news on the oil consumption improvement. Somehow I missed that part in your original thread. How much oil consumption and how much improvement are we talking about?Did you use anything for oil consumption before (MMO, kreen, etc)?Was this your first OCI with HDEO?

Also, did I hear correctly you plan to use oil from filter for UOA? Don't, as that will give you elevated wear metals and particles.

Was down to 1qt every 1600 miles at the start of this OCI, has only used 1 cup in the last 800, so oil consumption has been halved. I can attribute the current rate (1qt per 3200 miles) to my driving style, after noting that most manufacturers call 1qt per 3k normal anymore. For a 13 year old car, I ahead of the curve by a fair bit there.

I did use MMO (in PP) for the last 1k of my last OCI for cleaning, but not necessarily to address the oil consumption. Consumption was 1qt every 4 tanks of gas (roughly 1400 miles) at the start of that OCI.

Yes this was my first OCI with an HDEO and my initial use for the canola was simply to thin the 5w40 to something a bit closer to the 5w30 the VVTi cam wants; the though of using it as a means to add esters into the sump was secondary, but it was the combination of that and the fact that it would bring it closer to a 30wt than a quart of 5w20 or 0w20 would that lead to my final decision to use it. I didn't do a VOA because I wasn't initially planning on tracking it as closely as I have. I'll likely to a VOA on the next fill of it, though.

Good call on not using the filter oil for the UOA, I didn't think of that. I'll need to make a pump to draw the sample from the sump then, since I'm not planning on draining this at 3k, just sending in a sample.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/21/1302:36 PM

After yesterday's 160 mile romp, the oil is back to the light amber color it was before I parked the car for 2 months, feels just as slick as I remember it, and once again smells like motor oil.

I am a little surprised to see this. I wouldn't expect the polymerization/oxidation reverse itself with use. Perhaps MolaKule has some thoughts on why?

Rotella T6 is chock full of antioxidants. As I stated before, I'm fairly certain the oil had simply absorbed water from the air as esters do tend to bond with water; it's been fairly humid around here lately and with the car barely driven for over 2 months the oil wasn't being heated to evaporate that water back out. When ester-based oils get "wet", they do get sticky, which is precisely what I was experiencing.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/21/1302:43 PM

Originally Posted By: KeMBro2012

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek

Great news on the oil consumption improvement. Somehow I missed that part in your original thread. How much oil consumption and how much improvement are we talking about?Did you use anything for oil consumption before (MMO, kreen, etc)?Was this your first OCI with HDEO?

Also, did I hear correctly you plan to use oil from filter for UOA? Don't, as that will give you elevated wear metals and particles.

Was down to 1qt every 1600 miles at the start of this OCI, has only used 1 cup in the last 800, so oil consumption has been halved. I can attribute the current rate (1qt per 3200 miles) to my driving style, after noting that most manufacturers call 1qt per 3k normal anymore. For a 13 year old car, I ahead of the curve by a fair bit there.

I did use MMO (in PP) for the last 1k of my last OCI for cleaning, but not necessarily to address the oil consumption. Consumption was 1qt every 4 tanks of gas (roughly 1400 miles) at the start of that OCI.

Yes this was my first OCI with an HDEO and my initial use for the canola was simply to thin the 5w40 to something a bit closer to the 5w30 the VVTi cam wants; the though of using it as a means to add esters into the sump was secondary, but it was the combination of that and the fact that it would bring it closer to a 30wt than a quart of 5w20 or 0w20 would that lead to my final decision to use it. I didn't do a VOA because I wasn't initially planning on tracking it as closely as I have. I'll likely to a VOA on the next fill of it, though.

Good call on not using the filter oil for the UOA, I didn't think of that. I'll need to make a pump to draw the sample from the sump then, since I'm not planning on draining this at 3k, just sending in a sample.

A cheap transfer pump works great. They even come with a small tube for going in to the oil pan via the dipstick tube. I'll never get under a car to do oil changes again. Transfer pump pumps the oil into my old jugs so no more spilling oil,its easy and pretty fast in pumped out the chargers 7 quarts in a couple minutes.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/21/1302:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Clevy

Originally Posted By: KeMBro2012

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek

Great news on the oil consumption improvement. Somehow I missed that part in your original thread. How much oil consumption and how much improvement are we talking about?Did you use anything for oil consumption before (MMO, kreen, etc)?Was this your first OCI with HDEO?

Also, did I hear correctly you plan to use oil from filter for UOA? Don't, as that will give you elevated wear metals and particles.

Was down to 1qt every 1600 miles at the start of this OCI, has only used 1 cup in the last 800, so oil consumption has been halved. I can attribute the current rate (1qt per 3200 miles) to my driving style, after noting that most manufacturers call 1qt per 3k normal anymore. For a 13 year old car, I ahead of the curve by a fair bit there.

I did use MMO (in PP) for the last 1k of my last OCI for cleaning, but not necessarily to address the oil consumption. Consumption was 1qt every 4 tanks of gas (roughly 1400 miles) at the start of that OCI.

Yes this was my first OCI with an HDEO and my initial use for the canola was simply to thin the 5w40 to something a bit closer to the 5w30 the VVTi cam wants; the though of using it as a means to add esters into the sump was secondary, but it was the combination of that and the fact that it would bring it closer to a 30wt than a quart of 5w20 or 0w20 would that lead to my final decision to use it. I didn't do a VOA because I wasn't initially planning on tracking it as closely as I have. I'll likely to a VOA on the next fill of it, though.

Good call on not using the filter oil for the UOA, I didn't think of that. I'll need to make a pump to draw the sample from the sump then, since I'm not planning on draining this at 3k, just sending in a sample.

A cheap transfer pump works great. They even come with a small tube for going in to the oil pan via the dipstick tube. I'll never get under a car to do oil changes again. Transfer pump pumps the oil into my old jugs so no more spilling oil,its easy and pretty fast in pumped out the chargers 7 quarts in a couple minutes.

I have to climb under to replace the filter anyway, so I might as well drain it from the bottom while I'm down there anyway. I jack up the front of the car way higher than necessary (I can reach it without jacking the car up at all) after a hard drive to get the oil hot (to mix in any settled debris in the oil pan and so it just flows better). Since the drain plug is at the back of the pan, having it tilted 10-15 degrees back means every drop of oil is coming out.

The flow slows to a drip within 45 seconds, but I let it keep driping while I inspect my brakes, suspension, belt, and clutch, check fluid levels, and look under the valve cover. By the time I'm done getting it all back together and get the fresh oil in, the engine has cooled enough that I can pull the radiator cap and check my coolant, as well.

A transfer pump wouldn't really provide much benefit for me when a turkey baster and some fish tank tubing will draw enough oil for a sample.

Thanks for the tip, though; I'd definitely use it if I didn't also take that time to check-up on everything else!

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/22/1309:00 PM

The anti-oxidants, pour point depressants, AW and other chemical compounds of T6 has been diluted by 25% as well.

Quote:

I, too, would like MolaKule's thoughts on this.

When veggy oils cool, wax crystals form, and the oils go cloudy and change the opacity of the oil. Polymerized veggy oil and by products of combustion together tend to increase cloudiness in the cold oil.

I suspect that when you ran it the heat thinned the oil out and remelted any of the thick polymer components which increased transparency.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/22/1311:01 PM

The anti-oxidants, pour point depressants, AW and other chemical compounds of T6 has been diluted by 25% as well.

Quote:

I, too, would like MolaKule's thoughts on this.

When veggy oils cool, wax crystals form, and the oils go cloudy and change the opacity of the oil. Polymerized veggy oil and by products of combustion together tend to increase cloudiness in the cold oil.

I suspect that when you ran it the heat thinned the oil out and remelted any of the thick polymer components which increased transparency.

Interesting thoughts, but I'm not sure that explains why the process occurred slowly over the course of a week in which I drove 310 miles, nor why the oil is still light, non-sticky, and lacking any rancid smell even after sitting for a day. The hygroscopic nature of esters explains both how the oil seemingly degraded, as well as the "recovery" experienced.

We could go back and forth on this forever, but the fact is that neither of us have the resources to determine the actual cause with any level of certainty, and we're likely both correct to some degree. Even if one or both of us did have the means to prove what happened, we lack the samples required to accurately track the progress of this oil (a virgin sample and frequent historical samples), in part because I wasn't planning in getting as in-depth as I have (which admittedly isn't very in-depth at all) to begin with and partly because I don't have the means to process that many sample even if I had taken them.

Next time around I do plan on keeping a virgin sample and sampling every 1500 miles. These will go to Blackstone for their basic analysis (due to budget constraints). If anyone wants to bankroll additional testing I'm not opposed to that either, it's up to those who may want the additional information; none of the testing Blackstone will do within a reasonable budget will resolve the question of what caused this degradation and recovery. At any rate, that's several months away, as I'll be running this oil for a while longer still.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/23/1311:08 AM

Quote:

Interesting thoughts, but I'm not sure that explains why the process occurred slowly over the course of a week in which I drove 310 miles, nor why the oil is still light, non-sticky, and lacking any rancid smell even after sitting for a day. The hygroscopic nature of esters explains both how the oil seemingly degraded, as well as the "recovery" experienced.

I thought you said after it sat awhile it had a thick appearance and rancid smell.

Quote:

We could go back and forth on this forever, but the fact is that neither of us have the resources to determine the actual cause with any level of certainty, and we're likely both correct to some degree.

I don't intend to go back and forth.

I simply gave you my assessment of what I think happened to the chemistry.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/24/1304:02 PM

Originally Posted By: KeMBro2012

why the process occurred slowly over the course of a week in which I drove 310 miles, nor why the oil is still light, non-sticky, and lacking any rancid smell even after sitting for a day. The hygroscopic nature of esters explains both how the oil seemingly degraded, as well as the "recovery" experienced.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/29/1310:29 AM

Originally Posted By: MolaKule

I thought you said after it sat awhile it had a thick appearance and rancid smell.

Indeed, I did. I also said that after a little over a week of actually driving it, it had restored (at least in look, feel, and smell) to its previous state; I thought I had been clear about that in my previous posts.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 08/30/1308:44 PM

Originally Posted By: KeMBro2012

Rotella T6 is chock full of antioxidants. As I stated before, I'm fairly certain the oil had simply absorbed water from the air as esters do tend to bond with water; it's been fairly humid around here lately and with the car barely driven for over 2 months the oil wasn't being heated to evaporate that water back out. When ester-based oils get "wet", they do get sticky, which is precisely what I was experiencing.

I'm curious to know what esters you are referring to. Canola is a mixture of fatty acids, not esters. Esters are formed from reacting fatty acids with an alcohol in the presence of a base.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 09/02/1306:29 PM

I think he may be referring to the chemical nomenclature in which a triglyceride or triglycerol is considered a "tri-ester."

The triglyceride molecule is composed of three fatty acids and one glycerol component.

The carboxylic acids are generally the C12 to C24 acids.

Here is an interesting experiment:

Take a bottle of unopened veggy oil that has stood unopened for a year or two and as you open the bottle slowly you will hear a "hiss."

This comes from the negative pressure in the bottle due to a process called, "autooxidation," which consumes the oxygen in the oil. Autooxidation leads to the formation of hydroperoxides which turns the oil rancid.

Special anti-oxidants are needed to be applied to any veggy oil to reduce oxidation and degradation.

From the same source (paraphrased): "Tocopherols are natural antioxidants [which] function primarily as chain-breaking anti-oxidants that prevent the propagation of lipid peroxidation. Vegetable oils, nuts, and seeds are rich sources of tocopherols. Canola oil contains mostly alpha- and gamma-tocopherols, with gamma-tocopherol usually present in larger amounts. The total content of tocopherols in canola oil is higher than in many other common vegetable oils."

Admittedly, the source is discussing canola primarily as a food product, but the points are no less valid for any other application where ester content and antioxidant properties are under consideration. I will also concede that both are fond only in minute quantities in canola, but I never claimed otherwise; my claim was only that both are present, which is an indisputable fact.

Can we move on now?

Second edit: Apparently the board doesn't like the alpha and gamma symbols; replaced with long form.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 10/20/1302:15 PM

More to the point, my engine hasn't blown up yet. Since it's been nearly a year by now, and will surely have run past a year by the time I've put 3k on this oil, I'll be dumping it then. I'll be taking a peek under the valve cover at that time. If I have time, I'll drop the pan, and if I can get my hands on a boroscope, I'll inspect the combustion chambers, as well. You can also expect to see a filter dissection and a full analysis.

We'll see if there's any buildup resultant from the use of this oil, but if engine noise, performance, gas mileage, the dipstick, and the fill hole are indicators, I can already tell you there won't be.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 10/20/1302:45 PM

It was directed at both of you; EdHackett because he asked, and you because your information and assumption were both incorrect.

You're not providing me any new information here, nor anything I haven't already stated myself. There's a reason I chose an oil with an antioxidant additive content that far exceeds the requirements of my application; I have stated this in the past, as well.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 10/21/1311:44 AM

Re: Canola Follow-up - 10/21/1312:19 PM

We've had this back-and-forth throughout all of my threads, where I'll provide information up-front and you'll carry on attacking my position as though I don't know any of what I've already posted (which I obviously do, since I posted it), at which point I'll reply to you to point out that yes, I am already aware of the information you are posting and, in fact, have already posted something to the same effect, myself.

I don't think it's an unreasonable question, given how you like to ignore entire portions of my posts in order to make posts of your own that seem engineered to make me look like an idiot, all while posting information that actually agrees with me; in fact, it really wasn't much of a question at all, given that you clearly know your stuff, you're not likely dense. Note that I'm not insinuating that you're a troll, either, just that you seem to enjoy trolling me, specifically. As for the personal attacks, I don't see you approaching other members threads the same way you approach mine, so I'm taking that personally; I apologize if you don't like the way I went about pointing that out, but it is what it is.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 10/21/1304:08 PM

Hey now, I'm not devaluing anyone's opinion here, I'm just sick of the repeated implication that I haven't considered this or that piece of information, when I've clearly stated otherwise earlier in the thread. If that's not either deliberate ignorance or trolling, I'm not sure what else to call it and perhaps you should clue me in.

I've been trying not to outright ignore either you or MolaKule (or any other users, for that matter) since everyone says something useful at least once in a while (and MolaKule typically does... just not in my threads), but it's come down to either ignore the two of you or leave and, frankly, I like it here.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 10/21/1304:46 PM

Originally Posted By: MolaKule

Quote:

Some of the uses canola has seen (military service -- and not for cooking -- and as a heavy machinery lube) are much more demanding than the inside of your typical engine. These are constant-use, minimal-maintenance scenarios, which seems to coincide with my experience; this oil seemed like it was gonna last dang near forever until I stopped using it for a while.

Maybe so, but I am pretty sure these are additized oils with special anti-oxidant packages, not virgin Canola oils.

It will be interesting to see your baseline VOA, UOA's, and observation on the visual properties of this mix.

I suspect what you are now seeing is a polymerization of the Canola oil mix.

And we are still interested in the results of your experiment.

What I think is happening here Kenbro, is that when myself, EdHakett, Solarent, Nate1979 and others ask questions or present information that you have not considered, or present information in which you have a preconceived bias against, you get defensive.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 10/21/1305:00 PM

Re: Canola Follow-up - 10/21/1305:04 PM

What's happening, relating to your posts specifically (I'm not having these issues with any other user in this thread, but you're ignoring that I named you, specifically, in order to reflect the blame onto me), is that you're stating arguments that I've already addressed previously as though I haven't considered them already, when I clearly have since I've already addresses them. I welcome any and all opinions and new data the problem is that I'm not getting either of those from you and you're just arguing points that I've already addressed.

As an example, how many times have I mentioned that I'm using Rotella T6 for this test? How many times have I explained why I chose that oil? How many times have you parroted the fact (which I've agreed with, repeatedly, mind you) that the use of any vegetable oil requires a beefier additive package with a higher quantity of antioxidants? We've covered that several times now: that very fact played a large role in my choosing Rotella T6 for this experiment; secondarily, I chose Rotella T6 because I was already running it when I decided to start the experiment, but I could just as well have delayed the experiment for one OCI had I settled on a different oil. You're welcome to poke and prod at any part of this that you want to, I actively encourage it, but can you please try a new angle once in a while, so the debate can actually be productive?

That you keep harping on the same point about antioxidants, though I've addressed it each and every time, is precisely why I accused you of trolling my threads. If you don't like that accusation, I'm asking, as I have been, that you stop the behavior. That's all I'm after here.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 10/21/1305:12 PM

Originally Posted By: KeMBro2012

That you keep harping on the same point about antioxidants, though I've addressed it each and every time, is precisely why I accused you of trolling my threads. If you don't like that accusation, I'm asking, as I have been, that you stop the behavior. That's all I'm after here.

That doesnt change the validity of the question. You cite that T6 has a lot of antioxidant. When is it the right antioxidant for the specific chemistry in canola? Will it protect those ligands against radicalization and polymerization or oxidation?

Im not sure that this has been determined yet. Sure, your initial test may be telling, but just pointing to the fact that product x has y in it doesnt mean much.

When some of the most technically proficient folks on the site ask questions and reiterate them, I wouldnt call it trolling, rather an issue of whether the scientific basis of their query has been adequately addressed. There is a benefit to such peer review, like it or not.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 10/21/1305:27 PM

When they ask a question, get an answer, then ask the question again, it gets old really quickly.

Is it the right antiox? That question has actually not been posed in this thread, but it will be answered by this test, and any subsequent testing I may do.

MolaKule has pointed out something that I should look a bit more closely at when analyzing my final results, and I am grateful for that; I've acknowledged his point several times and it doesn't need to be made again, by you, him, or anyone else. In the very same post you are replying to, I actively encouraged him (and anyone else who's interested) to point out any other issues I should look for, since I clearly am already aware of that particular one. I did this not only because repeating the same point over and over again after it has been acknowledged is annoying, but because it is counterproductive and holds back the conversation, preventing discussion of other points that may be just as, or more, important.

If anyone has anything else to say about antioxidants, oxidation, polymerization, or radicalization in this thread, all I ask is that it include some new information that hasn't already been discussed here. If anyone wants to point out something else I may have missed; something that hasn't already been addressed here; please, I welcome you to do so. If I just wanted to put my own thoughts out there, I'd start a blog; I'm here for debate, I'm here to learn, and I'me here to hopefully teach, but I also understand that repeating the same argument over and over is not debate and nobody learns anything from it.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 04/29/1410:37 AM

Re: Canola Follow-up - 04/29/1411:11 AM

Oh wow! I actually forgot about this thread. Yes, I do have an update; I'm at work now, so I'll have to post it later.

The short version is: the car's still on the road, nothing blew up, and Blackstone offered me a free VOA for the canola blend, which I'll take them up on when my next OC comes around. e.g. I'll be doing this again.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 04/29/1407:15 PM

Re: Canola Follow-up - 06/01/1401:30 AM

Another month gone by, any updates?

I wouldn't care if my oil was slightly degraded from canola if it cut leaking by significant amount. If you are adding fresh oil because you lose tablespoons daily anyway your additive package is hanging in there.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 06/01/1402:57 PM

Yeah, as much attention as this has drawn and we keep getting put off, lol. 6 months ago you needed 800 more miles. 5 months later, you have the results, but you are at work and will post when you have time. Another month later, you will post the results when you get home.

No one can judge you, you are only contributing to research. I think what you've done is awesome if you post up some proof. Cause it's starting to smell fishy, and I don't want to say that because I felt like it was all true with the way things have been worded.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 06/02/1402:54 AM

I am not going to make my own thread because im doing the same thing pretty much with my own take on it.

I'm going to start topping off with dino delvac 15w-40 + canola blend for the last 1500 of my OCI, the method I use with MMO. Then on drain I'm going to fill the crankcase with about 75% canola and idle the warm engine that has cooled a few hours. I will then add a fresh change of just motor oil. Residual canola will be present but not significant.

This is a 1988 carbed mazda b2200 that ticks for 2-3 miles on startup and leaks a lot from a bad rear seal. As i said in above post if it drops ONE drop less overnight makes it thru summer with no breakdowns then it's a success to me.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 06/03/1410:28 AM

Haha! Keep your hair on your head! Life just decided to get busy for me is all. I'm actually a hair over 1500 miles into my next OCI already (6mo later, I know -- I really don't put many miles on this car) with straight T6 so I know I'm waaaaaaaay overdue for posting the UOA from the canola test.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 06/03/1410:30 AM

Ooh that's ballsy. 75% might be a bit much, even at idle. That said, you should still have and additive coatings from your last OCI in there, so you might be fine. In either case, I'm not responsible for the results!!

Re: Canola Follow-up - 06/07/1402:06 PM

Re: Canola Follow-up - 06/07/1407:46 PM

Well, here we have it:

Wear metals are a bit higher than my last OCI, but not horrible; I'm attributing it to the oil having deteriorated when the car was parked for 3mo, possibly combined with my tendency to keep the RPMs high. They're not alarmingly high, considering how I drive this car.

Silicon is high most likely because I used black RTV on the VCG and didn't let it fully cure before starting the engine. That, or the Spectre filter I'm using is letting [censored] through; I guess we'll find out with my next OCI.

Viscosity was out of range at the end of 3k miles, but better than the Pennzoil Ultra from my last OCI by quite a large margin, and with a markedly higher flashpoint. It looks like the canola didn't hurt the TBN too badly, either, but I'm going to confirm that with a sample of Rotella at 3k miles (I'm running it straight currently).

I'll be running this straight Rotella for as long as I can safely do so, then repeating the canola experiment for my next OCI. Looking at this OUA, I'll probably be dumping the Rotella at 3k (or whatever it's got on it when I get that 3k UOA back). I'm just broke 1500 miles this week, so I've got a bit of driving to do yet.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 06/07/1409:47 PM

I actually started with a blend of Rotella T6 (which is a 5w40) and M1HM 0w20 in a 3:1 ratio to thin it out a bit, and only started adding canola as a top-off. I did 4 8oz top-offs of straight canola and 4 8oz top-offs of 3:1 T6/canola blend, so it should have been very close to 25%. My next run will be 25% from the very start and driven much more frequently.

Travis at Blackstone has taken an interest in my activities and wants to see a VOA of the blend for comparison, so I'll be sending a virgin sample at my next OC. We'll be able to make a solid comparison at the end of that OCI.

I don't really remember how it looked when it came out. I know the sample cup was absolutely black once I filled it up, but if I recall, it was still amber on the stick. Visually, I'd have not given a second thought to running it for another 3k, if not for it's age.

Re: Canola Follow-up - 06/08/1412:10 AM

Re: Canola Follow-up - 06/08/1402:06 AM

The entire report, save for the silicon, surprised me. I expected the wear numbers to be higher, simply for the fact that the oil went rancid while the car sat, and expected there to be little-to-no additive content left in the oil. I was also expecting the TBN, flashpoint, and viscosity to be much lower, so I was happy to see the flashpoint and viscosity actually higher than my previous OCI without canola.

I just went for an hour long romp on the freeway (can't tell you how many miles that was, I'm sure some simple math would make that a rules violation), trying to get up to 3k sooner, rather than later.