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Re: Pacers at Magic Postgame thread

Couldn't have said it better. Why everyone is blaming the coach, and not our two best players who were cold as ice is beyond me. If Granger and Dunleavy aren't hitting, you aren't winning against Orlando.

I mean it's like we don't even read scouting reports anymore. Did we not know the Magic were the best 3pt team in the NBA before the game or something?

The Pacers scored 111 points tonight on 50.6% shooting. A well coached, disciplined team wins with those numbers 9 times out of 10. Offense was not our issue tonight. I don't care if Dun and Danny were having off nights. Everyone else more than covered their butts on the offensive end.

Re: Pacers at Magic Postgame thread

I really really am losing any shred of faith @ JOB redeeming himself in my eyes... Not only in what I mentioned in my previous post in this thread, but ESPECIALLY in regards to Roy Hibbert..

Here we have a 7"2 guy , who in all likelyhood WILL be a good part of the Pacer's future (if JOB gets canned soon) .. yet he gets treated like a garbage player ..

Here is yet ANOTHER game after all those DNP-CD's he got from JOB .. that come in and handled business...

Here are his stats this game...

He played 14.58 minutes .. (mostly garbage minutes, especially after there was no way we could come back) shot 6-10 FGM/A
2 offensive and 2 defensive Rebounds
1 Assist
3 Personal Fouls
2 Blocked Shots (1 I saw against Howard)
and
12 Points

Yes Roy is a little foul prone cause he is a rookie, but damnit that only improves with PLAY-TIME and learning in game against the vets and stars in the league ... NOT IN.... (cues Iverson video) ... PRACTICE !!!

WTF is wrong with JOB?!?!

Seriously ??

If they are in win now mode.. it sure as hell isn't gonna be starting Murphy against the likes of superman ..

If I were coaching this game , I would have started Foster at Center, had Hibbert come in the 2nd unit, and let him play as much as his fouls allowed him to be on the floor... PERIOD...
THEN if he fouled out, move Murphy into the Center position.. but only then...

Sometimes I really wonder about this coach of ours...

One can have the most talented players on the floor, but if the coach doesn't know how to coach to the situation, recognize when a player isn't playing well, and compensate for it , that talent is only gonna get you so far...

I absolutely cannot stand JOB's philosophy of letting a player play himself into either finding his game, or playing himself into oblivion ... To me .. it is detrimental to the team , our record and to us fans.

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I can see a player missing some shots, no big deal, but when a player is 0 for 8 and finishing 2 for 14 or somethin like that... that isn't just the player's fault .. it is the coaches fault for coaching very poorly and not recognizing the problem and adressing it....

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There is only so many games, that you see the exact same pattern of coaching, that you see that it is a problem... and it MUST be addressed...

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I really try and give JOB the benefit of the doubt, but when it keeps happening time and time again , you have to step back and take note .

Re: Pacers at Magic Postgame thread

Orlando is just one of those teams that have our number. Which there really is no shame in, what we have learned is that the truely good teams are usually better than us. No shock there.

As was said above if both Granger and Dunleavy are having off nights the likelyhood of winning anything is not good.

My only complaint with O'Brien for the night is his God awful insistance that we must play small.

A showing of hands please. If before the game I asked you who you would like to start at center opposite of the most dominate big man in the game how many of you would have said Troy Murphy?

I bet there are not a lot of hands that went up.

On the one hand though I think what Jim was doing was pretty much conceding the center spot but thought we would compete everwhere else.

Again, see the part about Granger and Dunleavy having a bad game, it pretty much blew up in his face.

We went big in our two previous wins and tonight we did not.

But to say this loss is on O'Brien is way to simple. Orlando is uniquely built with a dominate big man and two forwards that can shoot lights out and two guards that can penetrate.

The only true hope you have in a case like that would be to have a couple of big men who could go down low and punish their smaller forwards. Who on our team fits that description? Hibbert maybe but again he only got garbage min.

Someone said look for a silver lineing in this game and it is this, it only counts as one loss. We have a chance vs. the Bucks to get right back to winning.

Oh, thought I heard Clark say that Rasho was under the weather.

Winning or losing is secondary... This is about giving up 135 points for the game. It's about giving up 68 (or whatever absurd number it was) at halftime.

I can almost 'buy' pitting Murphy against Howard and just conceding that position to Howard, but then why small ball all the way around? What reason was there to get Jack to start at SG? ....Other than O'Brien's apparent mancrush on him and giddy goal of playing he and TJ at the same time as much as humanly possible.

I absolutely do not want Jim OBrien here next season. No way. I've seen enough of this defense and I do not for a second think this is the best our players can do. He's simply putting them in a position to fail and they're doing exactly that. We're over the hump as far as character on this team. We have what I believe to be coachable players... but we don't have a coach as far as I'm concerned.

"Houston, we have a problem".... and that problem is a lack of talent. Not a lack of talent on the court- a lack of talent in the coaching position.

I'd argue for firing him now, but we run the risk of a temporary replacement doing better by virtue of actually addressing the defense. ...And then we'd be in an awkward position this summer when it comes to naming a replacement or extending the 'interim' coach. Plus, for those in favor of 'tanking'... we couldn't lose any more if we tried to tank the season. Obrien's failure and apparent lack of need in seeing this team address defense is a guaranteed losing proposition. Of course there's the question of utilizing this losing season to develop players.... And there's the issue of when (not if) O'Brien will be losing this team. You simply cannot continue to see the defense be this bad without players starting to question their teammates and/or coach and taking sides.

Walsh would simply wait until that happened... and then wait some more... and then wait until it blew up in his face... It's yet to be seen how the new regime will handle something like this. Get in front of the curve or wait for the bottom to fall out?

Obviously, you don't want to fire a coach midseason who still has the support of his players. And if O'Brien still has the full support of his players, it won't be for long.

-Bball

Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

------

"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

Re: Pacers at Magic Postgame thread

he is an idiot. he's a rucker park coach. how bird still stands him and that basketball he's making this team play and how there are still JOB lovers in this forum are beyond me.

this team losing to orlando is natural but 135 points! that's a disgrace! they are good but not that good. this is the second time we gave 135 points this season thanks to Jim 'there's no d in JOB' O'Brien.

Re: Pacers at Magic Postgame thread

Re: Pacers at Magic Postgame thread

Yea we got blown out tonight. It happens. Yea we could win more with better defense. I agree. But before some on here start collecting pitchforks and torches in an effort to head over to Bird's house to demand a JOB firing, let's take a step back, breathe a little, count to ten and then put this season in perspective. Remeber, nobody lost their life because we gave up 135 points...

To this point in the season...
1) Indy has had the toughest SOS in the league (.540)... BY A WIDE MARGIN. There are only 12 other teams in the league over .500 and only 2 over .520

2) Indy has had 25 road games this season. There are only 2 other teams in the league who have played more.

3) Despite #1 and #2 above, Indy has lost only 10 games by >10 points. I say "only" because there are 17 teams in the league with more >10 point losses than the Pacers.

4) Indy has been in 14 games decided by 3 points or less and 35 games decided by 9 points or less. I'd say we have been competative... even against the toughest schedule in the league to this point.

I understand the need to second guess the coach, that's normal. But remember, the P's have played the toughest schedule with a talent level that has never been superior to anyone. Yet more times than not, the team is competative, fun to watch, is still in a playoff race and has a budding all-star. I don't think anyone expected more than that.

Now to my rant...
I used to enjoy reading the post game threads because they contained good insight, but now they just feel like a bi+ch session. Unfortunately, I believe this is driving away a lot of good posters who don't want to fight the "fire JOB" theme that is inevitable when the Pacers lose. It's frustrating to me because I know there are other threads to post in where you can voice your total disgust of JOB.

Now my disclaimer...
This is just my opinion and I'm not here to say what anyone can or can't post. It's up to all posters to determine the posting environment of this board and I understand nobody's forcing me to read it

Re: Pacers at Magic Postgame thread

It's not the losing , in which alot of us are mad about .. ... it is the blatantly STUPID decision making on rotations , subs, matchups, recognizing when and where to utilize every player on our roster in a smart way , that should be EXPECTED of a good coach... that utterly PI$$e$ us off..

Yes there are some posters who go overboard with the pitchforks.. and for the most part I agreed with some of the points, but held out hoping JOB would prove that there was a method to his madness..

As of this point in the season, I just don't see it ... I find myself almost EVERY game I watch , yelling at the TV at JOB on why he don't pull someone off the floor,why he has certain players out there, or why he simply cannot make the needed adjustments to best utilize our guys ...

It's like "his select guys are gonna play , and there is nothing that no one's gonna say that's gonna change his mind"
I always hear how pt is "rewarded" .... BAH B.S. !!! (what in practice?!?!)
I can't tell you how many times I have seen Hibbert or McRoberts play there a$$es off
(in real games !), and positively impact the outcome of the game , and their reward?

DNP-CD's or put on the inactive list...

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I'm sorry , but JOB is really wearing thin on me...
I believe at least close to half of our losses can be attributed to horrible coaching decisions on the things I have mentioned above...
Yes of coure the players are to blame as well.. but when you have a coach who doesn't make the necessary adjustments when those players are playing bad at that moment , then it goes back to the coaching for failing to act...

Re: is it the players or Coaching GEEZZZZZE!!!

I just wanted to know because everyone criticizes me for talking about jim o'brien but i mean come on what gives...? He starts off w/Murphy at Center, you've got to be kidding me, and on top of that Daniels had 10 points and even the commentator pointed out the fact that he should have kept Daniels in, but he sure nuff had Dunleavy in who gave us absolutely nothing and once again is a huge liability on Defense.....Well you guys will fault me anyway but i wanted to know is it really the players or the coach?

Maybe it's both. Maybe we don't have the personnel that understands or works well in O'Brien's "defense." In any case, it's always easier for a team to change coaches than it's roster.

Re: Pacers at Magic Postgame thread

For me it's primarily about the defensive issue. It's a two way street. There's the coaching approach coupled with the defensive talent available.

I freely admit that there is little defensive/rebounding/toughness given the personnel. At the same time, it's looking a lot like the second consecutive year where it's legit to ask if JOB's defense is too complex for this bunch and, by extension, whether there isn't some alternative that would at least be conducive to somewhat more resistance on our part.

Regardless what the answer to the the dilemna is, there is no question that we have to find a way to upgrade the defensive/rebounding ability on the roster in order to really move in the direction we all want to see in the next year or two.

Earlier in the season I thought Rush might provide some help to our perimeter defensive issues. I still think he could in the long term. I would still try to get him some consistent PT at this point and just encourage him to concentrate on defense.

I suppose Dunleavy is still not in game condition. I missed a lot of the games right when he returned b/c I was out of the country. One thing has not changed though-he offers virtually nothing in terms of on-the-ball defense. Hopefully, the rest of his game returns to form soon.

Jack and Ford can score, but as of yet, they aren't PGs who I see making the rest of the team better. Don't know if either are capable of that.

Re: Pacers at Magic Postgame thread

Orlando was w/o a doubt on fire last night - but still, our defensive rotations were just awful. At one point, they ran the same play three times in a row and scored three times in a row......I believe it was Battie cutting middle off a Howard double team. The defensive rotations were awful.....I blame part of that on our starting lineup, which forced us to double Howard and leave the 3 open.

The epitome of JOB's philosophy was on full display tonight. Offense comes first, Defense comes last. Look at the starting lineup. Why start Jack over Foster? Simple - he wants Murphy drawing Howard out of the paint for easier guard/wing penetration......offensive thinking at it's best. He doesn't see that that leaves a 6'2" Jack guarding a 6'10" jump shooting Turk and Murphy guarding Howard, both are laughable, hence why they shoot 50+%. JOB was clearly trying to "outgun" the opposition.

Foster is one of the better big man defenders in the league, Murphy is one of the worst, Howard is a beast, you do the math. You'll lose more on the defensive end w/ Murphy on Howard than you'll gain on the offensive end.

A smart coach wouldn't sacrifice D, keep his lineup, and make them adjust to us. Make Turk guard Danny, make Lewis rebound with Murphy. If you're so concerned about Howard camping in the paint, try and run more pick and rolls with Foster to bring him out a bit. I thought JOB would catch on in the second half and start Jeff, but no, same starting lineup. This time he doubles Howard with Danny and Lewis starts his barrage.

At one point, FSI zoomed in on JOB's face during a huge Orlando run. His expression said it all. He had the look of "WTF, I have no idea what the hell is happening" look on his face.

This team needs someone like Avery Johnson - who is tough on the players and demands D. He took a laughable defense in Dallas and took them to the finals by playing D. Dirk went from all-star to MVP under Avery.......probably b/c Avery demanded the work.

I'm just tired of JOB's silly overthinking/analyzing. He is so caught up in his own creative offensive schemes that his defensive schemes fold.

The games we have won, we win b/c we shoot well and outgun opponents. In any game, you're gonna go cold for a stretch and must rely more heavily on D. We don't have that. Prime reason why teams ALWAYS get back into games that we have a huge lead.....eventually we go cold and our defense can't sustain us.

Re: Pacers at Magic Postgame thread

Avery Johnson is the only guy available that I'd consider looking at. Otherwise O'Brien is doing his job. We are what we are. Our defense is frustrating yes, but considering how many losses we have you'd think we would have had more nights like last night. But getting beat like that has been rare. So in my eyes the pieces are almost there, they just need a little tweaking. I don't think the coach is the place to start. We need to get more athletic and hard nosed defensively, and we need an inside presence (or 2) offensively.

I would really like to hear someone try to explain this "defensive" philosophy again.

Like I said two weeks ago. The reason the defense isn't working doesn't matter. It's NOT WORKING. Plain and simple. If you can't effectively coach it, or your players can't execute it, then switch it up and find something you can coach or they can perform. Right about now, it's like asking them to do backflips. While it's not impossible for others, it's completely impossible for the Pacers. I don't care if Boston runs something similiar or runs the exact same defense. WE ARE NOT BOSTON. Our bigs do not have the capability of quick rotations like Garnett and Perkins do. I know Rasho didn't play, but he might as well be in quick sand when he does. It makes me tired watching him try to pick up his legs and move.

The definition of crazy is trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results. JOb should be institutionalized right about now.

Re: Pacers at Magic Postgame thread

The biggest story of the night was Orlando being quite hot from the 3 point line.

However, I'm tired of this defense. It's too stubborn. You have to be flexible to play good defense, and we very often refuse to do it.

I'd even prefer our wings to sag, but stay home, rather than just blatantly leave their man to double the paint.

There were a lot of factors contributing to this loss, Orlando was hot, our best players were cold, plus the way orlando is built is ideal for scorching obriens defensive scheme. I don't want it to seem like Im joining the angry pitchfork waving fire obrien mob, but he definatly put us in a position to fail tonight.

I agree about the defense being too stubborn, Obrien is in general has a very stubborn approach. Sometimes it hurts us. There are times when we should just play straight up even if we don't have the best individual defenders, because its better than leaving wide open three pointers for the best three point shooting team in the leauge. The guy refuses to adapt.

You can get away with going small against orlando because really they play small. Granger on Lewis and Dunleavy on Turkoglu are not bad matchups, however, Murphy on Howard is just painful to watch. Foster should have started. I think it would have been much better to just let Foster and Hibbert play howard straight up all night and try to lock down all his help on the perimeter. Obrien, as much as he talks about defense, put a totally offense oriented lineup out there to start... and when dun, granger, and murph weren't hitting, we got absolutley buried.

Foster starting and playing better defense had been the reason we were winning previously. Obrien went away from what was working.

Positives? Hibbert looked pretty damn effective out there as usual, I really hope he has passed up Rasho in the lineup. TJ played an excellent game. He can really elevate again and has probably won back the starting job. Which is great because I think Obrien plays Jarret Jack way too much.

Last edited by Infinite MAN_force; 01-28-2009 at 11:08 AM.

"As a bearded man, i was very disappointed in Love. I am gathering other bearded men to discuss the status of Kevin Love's beard. I am motioning that it must be shaved."

I would really like to hear someone try to explain this "defensive" philosophy again.

Like I said two weeks ago. The reason the defense isn't working doesn't matter. It's NOT WORKING. Plain and simple. If you can't effectively coach it, or your players can't execute it, then switch it up and find something you can coach or they can perform. Right about now, it's like asking them to do backflips. While it's not impossible for others, it's completely impossible for the Pacers. I don't care if Boston runs something similiar or runs the exact same defense. WE ARE NOT BOSTON. Our bigs do not have the capability of quick rotations like Garnett and Perkins do. I know Rasho didn't play, but he might as well be in quick sand when he does. It makes me tired watching him try to pick up his legs and move.

The definition of crazy is trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results. JOb should be institutionalized right about now.

Create an ignore list. I know it may seem unneighborly. But you're here to talk about the Pacers, not argue with someone who's just looking for an argument. Most of the regular users on here make use (at least occasionally) of the "Ignore" feature. Just go to "Settings" -> "Edit Ignore List" and add the names.

Re: Pacers at Magic Postgame thread

Orlando was w/o a doubt on fire last night - but still, our defensive rotations were just awful. At one point, they ran the same play three times in a row and scored three times in a row......I believe it was Battie cutting middle off a Howard double team. The defensive rotations were awful.....I blame part of that on our starting lineup, which forced us to double Howard and leave the 3 open.

The epitome of JOB's philosophy was on full display tonight. Offense comes first, Defense comes last. Look at the starting lineup. Why start Jack over Foster? Simple - he wants Murphy drawing Howard out of the paint for easier guard/wing penetration......offensive thinking at it's best. He doesn't see that that leaves a 6'2" Jack guarding a 6'10" jump shooting Turk and Murphy guarding Howard, both are laughable, hence why they shoot 50+%. JOB was clearly trying to "outgun" the opposition.

Foster is one of the better big man defenders in the league, Murphy is one of the worst, Howard is a beast, you do the math. You'll lose more on the defensive end w/ Murphy on Howard than you'll gain on the offensive end.

A smart coach wouldn't sacrifice D, keep his lineup, and make them adjust to us. Make Turk guard Danny, make Lewis rebound with Murphy. If you're so concerned about Howard camping in the paint, try and run more pick and rolls with Foster to bring him out a bit. I thought JOB would catch on in the second half and start Jeff, but no, same starting lineup. This time he doubles Howard with Danny and Lewis starts his barrage.

At one point, FSI zoomed in on JOB's face during a huge Orlando run. His expression said it all. He had the look of "WTF, I have no idea what the hell is happening" look on his face.

This team needs someone like Avery Johnson - who is tough on the players and demands D. He took a laughable defense in Dallas and took them to the finals by playing D. Dirk went from all-star to MVP under Avery.......probably b/c Avery demanded the work.

I'm just tired of JOB's silly overthinking/analyzing. He is so caught up in his own creative offensive schemes that his defensive schemes fold.

The games we have won, we win b/c we shoot well and outgun opponents. In any game, you're gonna go cold for a stretch and must rely more heavily on D. We don't have that. Prime reason why teams ALWAYS get back into games that we have a huge lead.....eventually we go cold and our defense can't sustain us.

Nice post, but it's just lost on the O'Brien apologists who never seem to see or will ever accept O'Brien makes mistakes.

I remember when the tv camera panned in on O'Brien, and he had that confused what just happened look on his face. It was classic.

O'Brien isn't going to be fired. The Simons aren't going to pay another coach as well as have to pay O'Brien his contract. Money talks in this economy. Not to mention Bird isn't going to fire O'Brien b/c that says he failed by choosing a coach that is losing games with playing little "D". Too much pride to admit failure. JMOAA