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Author
Topic: Transmission: a moral question (Read 10311 times)

This is a question I've been struggling with for a few days. I hope, by sharing it with you guys, I can get some insight and maybe even spur some good discussion.

When is it okay, if ever, to willingly transmit HIV to another person? Not disclosing before sex obviously speaks of very poor character, but what about other situations? What about if you disclose and they insist on unprotected sex anyway? What about bug chasers? What about to people who have a condition that ensures they won't stay alive long enough for AIDS to develop? Or to someone who wants to share the experience of HIV with you? Do you think that we, as positive people, have an obligation to keep HIV from spreading?

But lets entertain a hypothetical that there is a situation where it'd be okay. Even then now someone else is infected and you have no control over who they sleep with. They could spread it to someone who very much doesn't want to be infected.

I've never been in a situtation where I've found it appropriate to knowingly transmit HIV to another. Occasionally I've encountered bug-chasers who, upon learning my status, have propositioned me for sex. I have idly considered the possibility of gifting one of those types. Not because they want it, but so that they might really know what they're asking for. But then I always think about the people they'll go onto infect and that kills any such thoughts.

I hope I never find myself in circumstances where the prospect of deliberately infecting someone seems acceptable.

I wouldn´t do it because I think its something evil. But being shelfish and practical...I dont want the social security to be collapsed with HIV patients (I want to be the only one to get the best medical attention) and I wouldn´t have unsafe sex to get another strain or any other infection that could compromise my future treatment options.

I have a real problem with terms like bug chasers, as I think that the only thing that it says about people is that they are looking to get infected, when in fact there may be very complex reasons why somebody is no longer worried about getting hiv.

Well when someone approaches me in a bar or a sex joint and asks "I hear you're positive, can we bareback?" you'll forgive me if I don't undertake a nuanced sociological assessment on the spot. It's happened to me several times in the last three years.

Personally speaking I am not going to knowingly transmit this virus to anyone, my virus ends with me. I won't even have unsafe sex with another positive person as I don't fancy getting a superinfection and inheriting their resistances/mutations that I might not have and potentially lessening my treatment options in the future. I also don't want to put myself in the position of picking up what ever else they may be harboring like Hep/HPV/Gon/Syph etc.

Not being as young and virile as MtD, it has been a few years since someone has approached me in an vain attempt of acquiring "the gift."

Those were their words, not mine. "The gift." Right.

I refused them then, I would refuse anyone now who sought the same. I don't care what their psycho-social situation is. I don't care if they're in a depression, just broke up with the love of their life, are stoned off their arse, want to be part of the "in" crowd, whatever.

They're not getting it from me because I couldn't live with myself knowing I had deliberately passed this on to someone else.

We have a moral and personal responsibility.........We have to be the responsible ones. If someone is interested in having unprotected sex with an HIV+ person, it is incumbent upon the person with HIV to NOT EVEN entertain the idea. Period, end of story.

Lisa

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"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves.."Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be?"

I think arguing semantics is rather beside the point. Someone can have complex and deep-seated reasons for his drinking to excess, but the label of "alcoholic" may still be appropriate.

Bug-Chaser, as Cliff pointed out a few months ago, fits many of us perfectly, whether we were in "denial," in Love, on drugs, naive, or misled. Low self esteem, HIV apathy and/or burnout, or the arrogance that we were removed from the pandemic facilitated many of our choices to ahve unprotected sex.

Is HIV a character flaw? I don't think so. I don't even think that having unprotected sex represents/implies a character defect. My parents barebacked a lot during their 51 years of marriage. I am proof of that.

Thing is, we live in a culture that is desperately trying to shove HIV aside, as it's SO 1990s. We dismiss it as no big deal. Doctors do it to the newly diagnosed, for God/dess' sake. So it should not stun us that uninfected people, exposed to that sort of misinformation, believe the crap. Maybe that's why I get so vehement when I hear people soft-peddling the impact of the drugs, their severity, their financial burden, their long-term impact on our lives.

The strain of HIV that YOU might have, that might co-exist with your body's chemistry for a decade or more before you even contemplate drug treatment, might ravage someone else until they are dead in a year. As people with HIV, we presumably have a better understanding of the virus than the average uninfected person. And if we don't, we'd better, for our sake. Dismissing drug toxicity, dismissing AIDS as a thing of the past, dismissing the experiences of those grappling with dementia, PN, ongoing PCP, KS scars, lipoatrophy/dostrophy, is beyond stigmatic. It's suicidal.

We just can't buy into that sort of denialist crap - because when we DO, suddenly our virus becomes less serious, and the prospect of passing it on seems less morally absolute.

And yeah, I think there might be one or two moral absolutes left in the world. Intentionally exposing someone to HIV is not cool. Not only because of the damage it does to the "bug chaser," but to the damage it does to the giver, as well. Shit like that will eat your soul for breakfast, and still be hungry. Good luck finding the fix that will take the edge off THAT.

That having been said, I still think that the laws on the books regarding HIV infection are absurd and wrong. And I also acknowledge that I have not always lived a morally perfect life post-infection. I know my house is made of glass, what's left of it after the stonings.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

1. When is it okay, if ever, to willingly transmit HIV to another person? 2. Not disclosing before sex obviously speaks of very poor character, but what about other situations? 3. What about if you disclose and they insist on unprotected sex anyway? 4. What about bug chasers? 5. What about to people who have a condition that ensures they won't stay alive long enough for AIDS to develop? 6. Or to someone who wants to share the experience of HIV with you? 7. Do you think that we, as positive people, have an obligation to keep HIV from spreading?

Your thoughts, please.

Well my friend, you asked, and since Jonathan gave us more than one line, I am going to take liberties on this one.....................

#1. Never2. There are no other situations!3. No skin off my nose, they are not getting unprotected sex from me anyway.4. You asked this and then tried to say you were uncomfortable with the answer from Matty??5. You and I are not God.....6. You don't have to share everything in life. This diminishes you to nothing more than a newspaper article.7. No, I do............

Listen, on the surface my answers seem to be cold and unfeeling. Well, they are in a way. I have to think about this in the context of other life and death situations, and when thinking about it in this way, I ask myself many questions in the same way you are here.

If a person wants to kill another person, is it OK for me to assist them in that accomplishment. Is it OK for me to give them a gun, a bullet or two, keys to an SUV to run them over when they screw up the gunshot?

I don't care what or how you wrap this scenario, the MORAL answer is still the same, and if you relate it to other immoral situations the answers are still the same.

Personally, my HIV is mine, and I am not going to give it to anyone else to play with.

Safe sex is not boring, and this discussion completely negates the power of the brain to make any sexual contact, one of fullness and joy, regardless of the transfer of semen, or vaginal fluids. We need to get off this idea that to have intimate sexual relations with another person depends wholly on the physical contact of penis to vagina, or anus. This is absurd in the extreme. If one is insistant on this premise, then they should never attempt to be intimate with anyone BUT those already HIV+. That way, there is a level playing field. On the chance that someone reads this that understands Viral mutation, I am one that also feels that one that is HIV+, is not particularly safe with another HIV+ person, due to the myriad of mutations that can take place with this bug, and then you end up with an untreatable mutant virus, and then you are dead. In the end, I guess it really doesn't matter, as people are going to do what people are going to do, and there is little that anyone can do to affect that. Otherwise, we would not have a global pandemic on our hands.

In Love.

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The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,and 362 to heterosexuals.This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals, It's just that they need more supervision.Lynn Lavne

I agree with those who say that it is morally wrong to intentionally infect another person. I can't even imagine a situation where it would be otherwise.

The "chasers" do not know what they are asking. Those of us with the disease know that it isn't just a matter of taking a few pills. I've never met a real chaser, seen a few in chatrooms, but I stay away.

What frightens me is that newly infected people, given so much misinformation in attempts to assuage their fear, do not know what they are giving any longer. We really have oversold HIV as a chronic and manageable thing, haven't we?

I think some things are worth our fear and respect. This virus is one of them.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

to throw a tempest into the teapot....the idea of barebacking a neggie is hot (to me) since it's 'forbidden fruit.' Would I? I hope not. Should I? Definitely not. Might I? Havent' been faced with that situation. The psychological allure works both ways... Course, I think about murdering my bosses all the time... but i don't.

Thank you all for your responses. The reason why I asked was because I've just broken up with my boyfriend (two years) because he cheated on me, didn't use protection, and then didn't tell me about it. What really disgusted me was that he, being positive, didn't use protection. He said the other guy knew and didn't care. I've been trying to understand his point of view, exploring other ways of thinking, to try to see if I can come up with an understandable reason why he would do chance exposing someone. I thought perhaps some of you might have reasons that I hadn't thought up, but evidently we're in agreement on this issue.

I don't think it is as cut and dried or as easy as you would all have me believe.There are no absolutes in this life, except death, and everyone should reach their own decision based on the circumstances at the time.

We probably burden ourselves with all these morality issues and even worse, giving hard and fast proclamations to issues that are very complex with loads of gray area. In the end, instead of us telling what other people MUST do, perhaps we should say what's the best thing to do (AND WHY) or say what WE would do and HOW we feel about it, then let everyone come to their OWN conclusions.

These sorts of discussions, typically run straight to bug chasers, but there are probably more complicated scenarios that are both more realistic and relevant. For example, what about the couple that decides to ditch condoms because they feel HIV is a barrier to intimacy or they are simply tired of dealing with all the precautions? I suppose one could stand one their soap box and tell the person who is HIV positive that he or she is a very bad person if they do that. But as far as I'm concerned that's an issue for them to decide together.

It's bad enough wondering through the legal and ethical maze of safer sex and disclosure, without the added burden of people who are also positive telling you that you may be morally corrupt if you don't act a certain way.

Cliff

P.S.- That's not to say that you can't or shouldn't explain or discuss the consequences of your actions (i.e., discussing the possibility of someone who you, as a positive person, has properly disclosed, unprotected sex with later on deciding that they don't want to be positive or that they could go on to infect someone else). But you will probably find that someone is more likely to make the best decision, if they are given positive support/reinforcement, rather than simply being told that do X is wrong and you will burn in hell or rot in jail if you do it.

I have been dealing with this question for years. The possibility of destroying another human being, whether they say the want it or not, is just not acceptable. People have asked because they wanted HOPWA, bad choice for a government funded program that is not guaranteed. Healthcare funding is at stake in a big way this year. There is no guarantee it will be available at all in 3 years.

Ever taken Norvir? Six pills, three times per day of the most miserable side effects known to modern civilization. Have you ever had an uncontrolled bowel movement in a public place? If so, did you walk home or take public transportation?

Ever taken AZT? I spent the first month so sick, I could not stand up at the stove long enough to heat a can of soup which was provided by a charity food bank. Let alone eat it.

Ever notice the phone used to ring with calls from interesting people with invitations and thought provoking conversation? They lost your number.

Ever go visit your "home town" and find no one you used to be friends with will be available to visit because your brother told everyone you have AIDS? Ever notice on Thansgiving, Christmas, Easter and all birthdays, the only card that come in the mail are from the Healthcare Clinic and the ASO's? Guess who isn't invited to any family gatherings?

I am involved in every committee and task force in my county which is formed to improve the quality of life and insure continued services for people living with HIV/AIDS. I have recently agreed to serve on the Board of Directors of the new AIDS Nutrient Bank and have accepted the invitation to serve on the Board of Directors of Project Africa (an organization which provides food for children and babies living with HIV and on anti-retrovirals in Namibia and Global Bridges, an organization which provides scholorships for young girls in Zimbabwe.

If anyone wants the humiliation, the public shunning and all the side effects of HIV, they may have mine. I am too busy to give it to them personally. Have the best dayMichael

Like the majority, I can't imagine one reason why I would ever knowingly "transmit" the "Gift" to anyone. A rose by any other name is still a rose and so it is with Bug Chasers. When David died, his only regret in life was that he had transmitted the virus to me.... I'd like for our particular bug( his and mine) to die with me. Which is probably why Iwon't even date anyone unless they are positive....Which in a way is bigotted but I just won't take the risk.

Holy shit, sonomabeach. You sure captured the experience in a consise way.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

Trust me Dingo. There are many like you. I belong to this video chat service and there's always a room labeled "Poz Breeding Neg" or something similar. Alwasy a good 10-20 guys in the room at one time and always get the usual message asking "you got the bug".

The word "moral" is very subjective and is based on many different theories. One theory states that people act more morally when others are around. It just makes me think if anyone would come here and honestly answer yes to any of the original questions.

to throw a tempest into the teapot....the idea of barebacking a neggie is hot (to me) since it's 'forbidden fruit.' Would I? I hope not. Should I? Definitely not. Might I? Havent' been faced with that situation. The psychological allure works both ways... Course, I think about murdering my bosses all the time... but i don't.

I believe you might have had a point a few years ago. I know for a fact that when I got here, I started being totally honest, to the detriment of the groupthink, about my sexual and social proclivities.

I will cheerfully bareback with another poz person, once I am convinced that they know the facts (such as they are) about reinfection and have arrived at the same conclusion as myself. I will not, however, seed a negative person. Because I know shit that they do not about living with this virus for a decade.

Methinks you assume a great deal about those of us who have arrived at our personal decisions. Trust me... I only speak for myself... but I speak from personal experience that shoudl at least be worth the respect that my choices deserve.

So, Dennis, YOU tell ME, rather than simple condescending to the masses, under which circumstances would YOU breed a negative person?

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

JK,No need to make this personal. I was in no way trying to be condenscending, nor was I assuming anything about anyone persons personal opinion. Afterall, that's basically all morality is; an opinion. All I was doing was throwing a theory into the pot about morality.

I never mentioned that I would or wouldn't breed a negative person. So why would you assume that I would? I don't even think I could honestly answer that question because I've never been place in that situation and I hope I never am.

I ask you though, why would you "cheerfully" bareback a another poz person, assuming they know the fact regarding superinfection but you won't bareback a negative person? What if that negative person was very well aware of all consequences and all facts "as they are" regarding HIV/AIDS? Why is your moral decision split in these two incidences?

I believe you might have had a point a few years ago. I know for a fact that when I got here, I started being totally honest, to the detriment of the groupthink, about my sexual and social proclivities.

I will cheerfully bareback with another poz person, once I am convinced that they know the facts (such as they are) about reinfection and have arrived at the same conclusion as myself. I will not, however, seed a negative person. Because I know shit that they do not about living with this virus for a decade.

Methinks you assume a great deal about those of us who have arrived at our personal decisions. Trust me... I only speak for myself... but I speak from personal experience that shoudl at least be worth the respect that my choices deserve.

So, Dennis, YOU tell ME, rather than simple condescending to the masses, under which circumstances would YOU breed a negative person?

Dennis... I dare say there are those who WOULD infect a negative person...whether it be the allure of a particular bug chaser or the person who thinks like Bailey or whatever....not that I believe Bailey would actually act on his thoughts...some I'm quite certain WOULD. Morality is a personal thing. For most its about what you can live with and personally I could never "live with myself" if I knowingly transmitted this virus of mine to anyone. Could you?

I am not at all takin this personally. Trust me, you would know were that the case. I was simply responding to a post that seemed aimed rather personally, for motivsations which escape me.

Is there an allure to barebacking? Sure.

Do I think that I have any real risk of reinfecting another poz person? No, I do not. And that is based on the science. Does the same hold trus for barebacking with a negative person? No, of course not. If you want the science and yet another conversation about reinfection/superinfection, by all means start that thread.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

I probably wouldn't be able to live with myself, David. But Cliff does bring up some very good points and scenarios in his post. And I'm sure there are 100 ore that he didn't mention. Morality is a very personal decision, and for most, changes depending on the situation. Humans can be very selfish, and unfortunatley, most don't think about the moral consequences until after their actions.

I could very easily ask the group "is it moral to steal?" And of course, everyone will answer, "no, it not moral to steal." Well, imagine a single mother, who's HIV+, and who's baby is HIV+, and has falling through the government cracks and can't afford to feed her baby. Would you condemn her for stealing baby food to feed her child?

Interesting point Dennis...but I don't think you can equate stealing with knowingly transmitting a deadly virus. In your scenario...No. I wouldn't blame her for stealing. However I would be very disappointed if she knowlingly gave her new boyfriend the HIV virus. Morality is a very personal thing. And Yes, sometimes we don't forsee the consequences to our actions until its too late.... Thank you for your candid response.

I am not at all takin this personally. Trust me, you would know were that the case. I was simply responding to a post that seemed aimed rather personally, for motivsations which escape me.

Is there an allure to barebacking? Sure.

Do I think that I have any real risk of reinfecting another poz person? No, I do not. And that is based on the science. Does the same hold trus for barebacking with a negative person? No, of course not. If you want the science and yet another conversation about reinfection/superinfection, by all means start that thread.

Interesting point Dennis...but I don't think you can equate stealing with knowingly transmitting a deadly virus. In your scenario...No. I wouldn't blame her for stealing. However I would be very disappointed if she knowlingly gave her new boyfriend the HIV virus. Morality is a very personal thing. And Yes, sometimes we don't forsee the consequences to our actions until its too late.... Thank you for your candid response.

<<I could very easily ask the group "is it moral to steal?" And of course, everyone will answer, "no, it not moral to steal.">>

This is not accurate. I would never answer that way. However, to equate theft to intentionally transmitting HIV seems to indicate a lack of knowledge about the ramifications of HIV infection. Society is far more forgiving and accepting of a thief.

This is not a question about morality. Mine is mutable, at best. Its about, knowing what we individually know about our infection, whether we would be willing to pass those experiences to another.

To me, that is a morally reprehensdible thing to do. I am interested in hearing from those who believe that their infection is worth sharing, and under what conditions.

PS: Dennis... I can tell when someone is seriously participating in a thread and being intentionally provocative. I dont do the flamewar thing

« Last Edit: June 18, 2006, 01:26:10 AM by jkinatl2 »

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

PS: Please don't request that I read a book on ethics. Having been an LPC, and a member of an ethics committee, I daresay I understand ethics. This is not an ethical question, but a moral one. And yes, there is a difference. A profound one.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2006, 02:45:28 AM by jkinatl2 »

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

What really disgusted me was that he, being positive, didn't use protection. He said the other guy knew and didn't care. I've been trying to understand his point of view, exploring other ways of thinking, to try to see if I can come up with an understandable reason why he would do chance exposing someone.

Could it be that he assumed the other guy to be positive? It's not a far-fetch scenario that someone who knows their sexual partner to be positive and chooses to have unprotected sex, does so because they too are positive and just decided not to disclose?

There are people out there who will not disclose their HIV status, even if the other person has. This honestly sounds more like heaping more judgment on your BF because he cheated on you. The devil incarnate he may be, but I'm willing to bet that he's just human. Like the rest of us.

I am interested in hearing from those who believe that their infection is worth sharing, and under what conditions.

i doubt you'll get that here. they probably represent less than 1% of the total HIV+ population

anyway as far as regulars in bug-chaser-gift-giver chatrooms, they don't post here. they're usually too busy (I'll be polite here) y'know, doin' what they do .... orgasms to the front, intellectual stuff to the back

I have had a couple of situations where I was reaching for a condom and had a guy sit on me or where we were having oral sex, and they wouldn't let me pull out at the moment of orgasm. What about those situations? I assumed that both guys were poz because I disclosed my status to them, but who knows, really?

I do think that it is one thing to have the discussion and believe what we would do and another thing entirely during the moments of passion, particularly when we can't always control the actions of others. Even when I have barebacked (don't like to do it) with other poz guys, I usually pull out before ejaculation, except in the few cases where I have been pinned into position, so to speak.

Ethics and morality are very closely inter-related. Ethics is a system of moral values. Ethics is also the study of morals and the specific moral choices a person makes. The basis of any Ethics book is going to be morality. As an LPC I'm sure you had a code of ethics? And what is a code of ethics? Simply, a set of moral standards. Therefore, this is a question of an ethical and moral nature.

PS: Please don't request that I read a book on ethics. Having been an LPC, and a member of an ethics committee, I daresay I understand ethics. This is not an ethical question, but a moral one. And yes, there is a difference. A profound one.