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Re: Who's deadlier with 3T sharingan, sasuke, itachi or kakashi

Infinite Tsukuyomi hasn't been shown to need an MS, as Madara used a smaller scale version of it with his 3 Tomoe Sharingan in chapter 606. Obito isn't even planning to use it, Madara is as Madara is the one who can use Tsukuyomi.

It could be due to the inverted KG for both brothers then, as Sasuke can break out of his tsukiyomi. But that STILL doesn't retract from the moon and sun references. As one eye represents sun and the other moon. Madara has the same workings as well. And double MS unlock Sussano.

What makes you think Tobi doesn't want to use it, when he didn't even want Madara to be a part of his plan? He didn't want to revive Madara, did he? Also, what would he reflect exactly: http://www.mangapanda.com/93-35269-1...apter-467.html . When Obito is saying his infinite moon-eye plan and moon-eye is already referred and confirmed as another term for Tuskuyomi? How will he cast an infinite version of Tsukuyomi if he doesn't have it himself? Doesn't make any sense to me.

Also Yagura was put under a very powerful genjutsu and controlled over the years to do Tobi's bidding, which can't possibly be 3T genjutsu.

Re: Who's deadlier with 3T sharingan, sasuke, itachi or kakashi

Originally Posted by shelke

It could be due to the inverted KG for both brothers then, as Sasuke can break out of his tsukiyomi. But that STILL doesn't retract from the moon and sun references. As one eye represents sun and the other moon. Madara has the same workings as well. And double MS unlock Sussano.

What makes you think Tobi doesn't want to use it, when he didn't even want Madara to be a part of his plan? He didn't want to revive Madara, did he? Also, what would he reflect exactly: http://www.mangapanda.com/93-35269-1...apter-467.html . When Obito is saying his infinite moon-eye plan and moon-eye is already referred and confirmed as another term for Tuskuyomi? How will he cast an infinite version of Tsukuyomi if he doesn't have it himself? Doesn't make any sense to me.

Also Yagura was put under a very powerful genjutsu and controlled over the years to do Tobi's bidding, which can't possibly be 3T genjutsu.

The moon and sun references don't support anyone other then Sasuke/Itachi/Madara as they actually have those techniques and it represents how they use one of them in each eye, same as the Double MS thing, those who have 2 techs in their eyes get Susanoo, the only ones who display this are Madara/Sasuke/Itachi.

And the databook says that Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are necessary for Susanoo.

Madara used a smaller scale version of the Genjutsu and said that this is the Genjutsu he will use with the moon, but he needs to drag everyone else in it also (hence the point of using the moon) Madara did all of that with a 3-Tomoe spare Sharingan and he said when connected to the Mazo, he can make anything he wants in that world, as detailed as he wants.

Again, we know nothing about Yagura's situation or the specifics on how he was controlled, anything could have happened then so referencing it isn't really that helpful.

Re: Who's deadlier with 3T sharingan, sasuke, itachi or kakashi

^ I don't think so. Is there any manga reference to prove that this moon/sun reference is NOT for Obito as well, since all the known MS uchiha have a moon-eye for their powerful MS genjutsu? He's also an Uchiha, why doesn't it apply to him?

He was just using an example to explain things to Tobi. That doesn't prove anything. The plan's name itself holds the explanation.

I ask you again, why is the plan called infinite Tsukuyomi? When it could've been called infinite genjustu? You can believe whatever you want. It doesn't take a genius to figure this out as the manga called the MS genjutsu ( Tsukuyomi ) way back the moon, and the eye that uses it moon-eye, and genjutsu itself was termed Tsukiyomi. As the opposite is termed as the sun-eye for Amatersu.

Re: Who's deadlier with 3T sharingan, sasuke, itachi or kakashi

Originally Posted by shelke

^ I don't think so. Is there any manga reference to prove that this moon/sun reference is NOT for Obito as well, since all the known MS uchiha have a moon-eye for their powerful MS genjutsu? He's also an Uchiha, why doesn't it apply to him?

He was just using an example to explain things to Tobi. That doesn't prove anything. The plan's name itself holds the explanation.

I ask you again, why is the plan called infinite Tsukuyomi? When it could've been called infinite genjustu? You can believe whatever you want. It doesn't take a genius to figure this out as the manga called the MS genjutsu ( Tsukuyomi ) way back the moon, and the eye that uses it moon-eye, and genjutsu itself was termed Tsukiyomi. As the opposite is termed as the sun-eye for Amatersu.

Anyways, you can hold on to your logic.

Using the Genjutsu's name as support for him having Tsukuyomi is pointless, as the one who named the plan (Madara) possessed Tsukuyomi so why would he call it "Infinite Genjutsu".

As Tsukuyomi=Moon and Madara/Obito is casting his Sharingan on the moon, that is probably why it is called the Infinite Tsukuyomi.

But, everyone has their own opinions...so you can believe what you want to believe.

Re: Who's deadlier with 3T sharingan, sasuke, itachi or kakashi

Your point makes no sense at all as far as the reference of genjutsu reflection goes. Really, it doesn't. Why did Obito want to sync Sasuke with the Mezo then, if he can use the three tomoe sharingen genjutsu himself, when his ultimate goal was to blind him by sending him to the Kage summit. He gave away his location through Zetsu, so that he would over-use his MS, which would ultimately make him resort to Itachi's eyes to gain the light?

This would make him an EMS user? Now why would he go to these lengths to have an EMS user like Madara to case the genjutsu for the moon-eye plan? In the end, he decided not to go with Sasuke because of the fact that he was not in his control. Why did he go for Sasuke in the first place, if going by your logic, all he has to do is cast it with a 3 tomoe?

Re: Who's deadlier with 3T sharingan, sasuke, itachi or kakashi

Originally Posted by shelke

Your point makes no sense at all as far as the reference of genjutsu reflection goes. Really, it doesn't. Why did Obito want to sync Sasuke with the Mezo then, if he can use the three tomoe sharingen genjutsu himself, when his ultimate goal was to blind him by sending him to the Kage summit. He gave away his location through Zetsu, so that he would over-use his MS, which would ultimately make him resort to Itachi's eyes to gain the light?

This would make him an EMS user? Now why would he go to these lengths to have an EMS user like Madara to case the genjutsu for the moon-eye plan? In the end, he decided not to go with Sasuke because of the fact that he was not in his control. Why did he go for Sasuke in the first place, if going by your logic, all he has to do is cast it with a 3 tomoe?

I dont know why he went after Sasuke in the first place since we he was about to complete the plan w/o Madara, but the same question also applies to you:

Why would he go for Sasuke in the first place if he could already use Tsukuyomi by himself like you claim he can.

I believe the Tsukuyomi in the Mugen Tsukuyomi is a Tsukuyomi in name only. The Jutsu literally requires one to look at the moon or to "read" the moon, hence its name, (Mugen) Tsukuyomi."

I believe that "Infinite Tsukuyomi" is just a Genjutsu that is gained through the power of the Juubi, not a more powerful version of Tsukuyomi. (That's why we see in the depiction of how the Infinite Tsukuyomi will be, we see that the Juubi's eye is reflected off the moon).

Re: Who's deadlier with 3T sharingan, sasuke, itachi or kakashi

You have learned that Tsukiyomi can be cast on the whole naruto-verse by moon reflection. Now take this scenario into perspective; the user casting the genjutsu will run out of chakra fairly quickly - within a few minutes, I'm guessing - , BUT with the Juubi's chakra, they can maintain the genjutsu for its 'infinite' value.

That question was aimed at you. As you believe that Obito can simply use the three tomoe sharingen genjutsu. Why did he want an EMS user? When he could have used an MS Sasuke as well? EMS provides better chakra consumption and the user doesn't lose his light, which he WOULD if he casts it with an MS eye, regardless of the infinite amount of Juubi's chakra. How long will he remain synced to Mezo? He would go blind in a matter of days from its constant usage.

This is another proof that the infinite tsukuyomi requires the reflection of MS's moon technique.

Re: Who's deadlier with 3T sharingan, sasuke, itachi or kakashi

Originally Posted by shelke

You have learned that Tsukiyomi can be cast on the whole naruto-verse by moon reflection. Now take this scenario into perspective; the user casting the genjutsu will run out of chakra fairly quickly - within a few minutes, I'm guessing - , BUT with the Juubi's chakra, they can maintain the genjutsu for its 'infinite' value.

That question was aimed at you. As you believe that Obito can simply use the three tomoe sharingen genjutsu. Why did he want an EMS user? When he could have used an MS Sasuke as well? EMS provides better chakra consumption and the user doesn't lose his light, which he WOULD if he casts it with an MS eye, regardless of the infinite amount of Juubi's chakra. How long will he remain synced to Mezo? He would go blind in a matter of days from its constant usage.

This is another proof that the infinite tsukuyomi requires the reflection of MS's moon technique.

The name "Infinite Tsukuyomi" could also have been conceived just how it says in my post as Madara nor Obito ever said they are casting Tsukuyomi on the entire Narutoverse, they said they were casting a Genjutsu.

@bold: No, it isn't the 3-Tomoe Sharingan Genjutsu...it is a Genjutsu that is used through the power of the Juubi hence the reflection being the Juubi's eye itself and Madara used this Genjutsu on Obito using the Mazo's power as he stated.

I know it was directed at me, but the question also conflicts with your own logic, so why would I be the only one to answer it?

Why would he lose his light when he has been spamming Kamui with his MS for years and hasn't shown a hint of blindness? He isn't going to go blind. And he was ready to do it by himself w/o an EMS user's help, so are you telling me he would have done it himself, knowing that he would become blind...I doubt it.

Re: Who's deadlier with 3T sharingan, sasuke, itachi or kakashi

@Kidgamer Do you realize how Sasuke doesn't call his MS tsukuyomi by this term, and only uses the term MS genjutsu? It's because the manga wants to highlight Itachi's as it surpasses the actual MS genjutsu. Otherwise, it's obvious that even Sasuke has it, and so does Madara otherwise they wouldn't have a sussano, now would they?

His Kamui is a special jutsu which doesn't seem to be linked to Uchiha at all. It's something he himself awoke when he went through a life and death struggle and was kept in a limbo-like existence. Also, he awoke it when he was hit by a rock, as according to Madara, he slipped through most of it: http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/602/5. As he of course was in a purgatory-state, where he was neither alive nor dead.

This is an ability independent of the MS eyes. Hence it shouldn't pose any threat to his eye-sight that would drain IF he uses the original kaleidoscope techniques.

Also, according to Zetsu, only Madara was capable enough to cast the genjutsu, which could explain Tobi's interest in Sasuke as he wanted him to awake his EMS as well: http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/603/8

Syncing with the mezo alone gives enough chakra to avoid death: http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/602/14. Now how would that gutsu continue to work without constantly using the technique? You think one reflection would cast cast the jutsu for eternity?

Re: Who's deadlier with 3T sharingan, sasuke, itachi or kakashi

Originally Posted by shelke

@Kidgamer Do you realize how Sasuke doesn't call his MS tsukuyomi by this term, and only uses the term MS genjutsu? It's because the manga wants to highlight Itachi's as it surpasses the actual MS genjutsu. Otherwise, it's obvious that even Sasuke has it, and so does Madara otherwise they wouldn't have a sussano, now would they?

His Kamui is a special jutsu which doesn't seem to be linked to Uchiha at all. It's something he himself awoke when he went through a life and death struggle and was kept in a limbo-like existence. Also, he awoke it when he was hit by a rock, as according to Madara, he slipped through most of it: http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/602/5. As he of course was in a purgatory-state, where he was neither alive nor dead.

This is an ability independent of the MS eyes. Hence it shouldn't pose any threat to his eye-sight that would drain IF he uses the original kaleidoscope techniques.

Also, according to Zetsu, only Madara was capable enough to cast the genjutsu, which could explain Tobi's interest in Sasuke as he wanted him to awake his EMS as well: http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/603/8

Syncing with the mezo alone gives enough chakra to avoid death: http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/602/14. Now how would that gutsu continue to work without constantly using the technique? You think one reflection would cast cast the jutsu for eternity?

If Obito really did use Kamui to slip through that rock, then he obviously used his MS momentarily and then unlocked it for good when he became aware of it later on when seeing Rin die, cause we already know Kamui is cast using Obito's MS.

The power Madara is using to cast the Genjutsu is the power of the Mazo/Juubi and Obito was about to complete the plan himself, so why would Madara be the only one able to cast the Genjutsu?

Nope, Hashirama's Living Clone was connected to the Mazo, which was then connected to Madara. he was sucking chakra from the Hashirama Clone, through the Gedo Mazo, using the Life Energy of Hashirama cells to stay alive. Cause we already know the Mazo is the Juubi's body with all of the chakra ripped out.http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/606/14

Its the same as using normal Genjutsu, Itachi doesn't need to make constant eye contact or even have to be alive to have the opponent be stuck in his Genjutsu, so why would it be different for the Moon's Eye Plan?