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The Rubbish CubeThe best place to criticize what is going wrong in health systems and other subjects.

Love the big smile. So, Beck is in New zealand, Aus, Canada.. hooked up with Carrick in Fla..
Ah, yes. Carrick. He wants to start up chiropractic neurology, get into rehab... As I recall there was quite a bit of deconstruction done about him on Chirotalk.
May I ask you dswayze, are you a chiropractor?

CK is a Certified Kinesiologist. It has recently become a regulated health profession in Ontario. Interestingly enough PTs and OTs were vehemetly opposed for our regulation due to a perceived infringement or overlapping of scope of practice. What is the situation in the US?

This designation is for advanced exercise prescription and testing for general and special populations. I also obtained my CSCS as well but that is more performance based.

Regarding the text, I have ordered it but not yet read it. I'm planning on doing a Masters and hopefully a PhD on motor programming and stumbled accross this title. I read Dr. Becks review and found that it that it could be a good source for my thesis, as I'm interested in manual methods of improving motor control, maximizing efferent firing patterns and overall efficiency of movement.

"The level of response obtained during the physical examination is often used to assess the level of activity in a certain area of the neuraxis and to later gauge the effectiveness of treatment."

Promising sounding statement, but isn't this what ANY exam does? Since the neuraxis (why not "system" like everybody else calls it?) is the ONLY system through which we communicate and interact with a patient ...

"It is not until we start to examine the three fundamental activities of the neuron in detail that we begin to realize their importance to the neuron and, hence, nervous system function in both health and pathological states. Mild alterations from optimum in any of these activities may result in dysfunction of whole systems in the neuraxis, such as the altered movement states in Parkinson’s and Huntington’s diseases due to imbalances of stimulatory or inhibitory thalamic activation respectively."

Basic neurology, with a bit of spice thrown in "Parkinson's and Huntington's" (sic) - ooo, scary diseases....and caused by what?

"A variety of conditions or states may also arise when afferent stimulation or inhibition is aberrantly distributed asymmetrically to the cortex, resulting in functional hemispheric imbalance which may result or contribute to a variety of learning disabilities, attention deficit disorders, affective and emotional disorders, and central autonomic dysfunctional conditions, including the complex regional pain syndromes and dysautonomia"

THIS sounds more like old chiro-talking in a new jacket. He just didn't mention otitis media and asthma - a small oversight, no doubt. Introducing as many neurological or systemic conditions to make the "tool" he is promoting sound sexy for a private practice flyer.....

"Intact afferent pathways are identified which, when stimulated or inhibited, will result in the appropriate stimulation reaching a target area in the neuraxis. Stimulation of these pathways is then utilized in restoring the functional state of the area. "

Identifying intact pathways is one things, but selectively stimulating or inhibiting pathways to target a specific area in the nervous system? This is piss-poor neurophysiology....

All in all, the typical BIG shortcoming here is: validity of the tests. As well as the intertester and intratester reliability issue. None of the neuraxis tests have ever made it into a paper I tried very hard to find. So, it looks that the testing needed to identify the "aberrantly distributed stimulation or inhibition" is - to put it mildly - anecdotal, unproven, and non-valid.

This short article has done enough for me to NOT buy the book, and to NOT waste my money on the "specilisation " or "certification" courses that are available for good $$$ no doubt...

(BTW, if a PT had written this, my post would not be ONE iota different).

__________________We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais NinI suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

That's a pretty heavy-handed response and a lot of speculation and inference on your part for a brief synopsis on a text that is over 500 pages. I'm not a psychologist, but I'd almost say that you're projecting your feelings on chiro rather than being objective. IMO, it affects your credibility on the subject. It's almost too cliche, it brings to mind "never judge a book by its cover"!

Regarding the content in the synopsis, I don't see any strong factual errors and am quite intrigued by some of the propositons. It seems theoretically plausible. Furthermore, Dr. Beck has earned his PhD in neurology so I highly suspect his neurophysiology is "piss poor"

Also, if you are questioning the validity of these tests, why not apply the same standard to SC? I have yet to see the signficance of externally rotated hips in the supine position be validated by research. Mr. Dorko has used his years of clinical experience and observation to come to this conclusion. Who's to say this isn't the same premise as the tests done in this book?

Though this forum has some interesting insights and approaches, the DC xenophobia this thread is starting to turn into is in poor taste. I'll be happy to provide a review when I read the book and will objectively assess it though me thinks that a positive review would be spun as "pro chiro propanganda" rather a good addition to the literature base.

People here are entitled to their opinion, including you.
You found the book dswayze, and gave it a thumbs-up without even reading it. What is one to make of that?
Why don't you go to chirotalk and ask if anyone there can comment on it?

Hold it pal, the hip thing is from Spine magazine in an article authored by Alf Breig. Your presumption that I somehow invented it or based its effect on my clinical experience is something you have obviously imagined.

The thumb up was in regards to finding a potential source that would explain manual therapies in a neurological context. Also, I thought it might appeal to this board since there is a focus on neurology/neuroscience and manual therapy.

My interest is in motor learning and this book might provide a paradigm "outside the box". As a CK, I'm more interested in the function (nervous system) that drives the structure (MSK system). Again, I'm not really concerned on the degree of the author so long as it's well-referenced, current, evidence GUIDED and theoretically plausible. Again, I could ask for the validity and reliability of DNM, but I trust in your expertise that you've developed over the years. Perhaps this professional courtesy should be given to the author as well, who unlike most members of this forum has an advanced graduate degree in neurology.

Regarding chirotalk, I have lurked there before and it seems like a select group of distraught ex DCs who got fleeced by their school with others seemingly glad to exploit this fact in the name of "patient education". However, I would rather judge the chiro profession on their best and brightest and not the ones found at that particular site. I would surmize that is a pretty poor randomized sample of the profession.

Hold it pal, the hip thing is from Spine magazine in an article authored by Alf Breig. Your presumption that I somehow invented it or based its effect on my clinical experience is something you have obviously imagined.

Not a good idea around here.

This has been validated and found to be reliable? I was not aware of these studies. Do you have references?

dswayze-
The importance of hip internal rotation is about what we KNOW it's effects on the lumbar pleuxus are - nothing speculative about that. It's not a clinical test designed to diagnose something so reliability and validity are irrelevant.
Much like limping - it's an observation that helps figure out the source of the problem. I've not seen any studies on the reliability or validity of measurements of limping - but I know it when I see it.
Perhaps if Barrett was claiming to be able to make diagnoses based on hip IR (such as location of a problem or determination of a specific dysfunction) then your argument might have some purchase.

Isn't it possible that the book is summarily uninteresting and based on speculation and poor argument, independent of who authored it? I haven't read it or the reviews of it, so I can't say. What I do find interesting is the speed with which you accuse others of anti-chiro bias when the arguments against the book speak to content and not to the credentials of the author. I liken this to playing the "race card".
So, do you have anything to say about the "content" and "quality" of the book? Please help us to understand that which you find interesting or useful about it - Bas gave his opinion which, if we give him credit for accurate quoting of the review, seems to be a good summary.

I don't know Dr Beck, but I'm sure he doesn't have a PhD in Neurology. Neurology is a medical specialty earned after medical school and residency and board exams. Perhaps his PhD is in Neuroscience. No less difficult a feat, but an important distinction.

I hope we can talk about this book and the ideas it advances based on the content - after all it should stand and fall on it's own merits, don't you think?
Welcome to SomaSimple.

I think that there is an elitist whiff around here which is why 90% percent of members don't bother to post.

I think that thinking outside the box is EXACTLY and acquiring new knowledge in novel ways is exactly how manual medicine sciences advances. Think of the implications of diagnosis, assessment and diagnosis, but from a neurological perspective. FUNCTIONAL BASED DIAGNOSES IS THE NEXT STEP IN MANUAL MEDICINE.

I think that outside the box thinking is exactly Simple Contact and Dermoneuromodulation is about and think that Diane and Mr. Dorko should a book to live up to the same standard as other scientists. Otherwise it's the same ANECTODAL evidence as purported by every other technique guru in every other profession.

I think there is a double standard and there is possibly thought-police. 1984, anyone?

I think that there are professional grudges that is based more an hearsay, and a "turf war"anything else. DCs supress PTs. PTs and OT's suppress CKs

We all have our respected strengths and if we worked collaboratively patient outcomes would be increased, period. Bas' chiro rant notwithstanding I'm looking forward to learning from this book and hope others in the forum will not let professional bias' affect their judgment to enhance their skill base (I confess to owning several books outside my profession, including some by orthopods, sports medicine physicians, PTs, ATCs, CKs, PhDs and yes, even by DCs.

However, I renew my request for a discussion of the content of this book without regard to the credentials of the author.
I'm all for improving skill and knowledge bases, but we ought to be adding only quality material. The only way to do that is to evaluate claims and ideas on their own merits.

You may claim elitism but I see a request for thoughtful dialogue. This is what the scientific process is about. I submit that the reason 90% of the members don't post is that many of them are just here to look and learn - this is true of any discussion board.

Have you any specific comments or ideas on the quality of the content of the book, or would you just prefer to continue to play the race card over and over?
I mean, I'm sure it's fun to write this stuff you're writing, but it's not much fun to read and it doesn't help us understand (again) the content or ideas of the author.

You claim the ideas have been judged prematurely - help us with that by explaining them and making an argument. Of some kind.

__________________Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTONEverything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
bernard

__________________Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTONEverything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
bernard

Thanks again for more card-playing and no discussion. But as Diane points out, you've only given it a presumptive thumbs up since you haven't yet read it.
I suppose that's better.
How very scientific of you.

Bas's summary is based on content, not credentials. My requests for discussion have been about content, not credentials.

Yes, I'm a member at chirotalk. I'm also a libertarian atheist vegan. Care to project any more qualities onto me based on my memberships or would you like to have an actual discussion about actual ideas?
It might be a nice change of pace.

Plus, it's now in the rubbish cube "politely" (I suppose) being censored.

I'm guilty and it has nothing to see with the DC bias. It comes from the "ad hominem" tone of some of your polite sentences.
BTW, fyslee is also a member of this board but I disagree with some of his points of view.

__________________Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTONEverything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
bernard

__________________Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTONEverything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
bernard

dswayze-
The importance of hip internal rotation is about what we KNOW it's effects on the lumbar pleuxus are - nothing speculative about that. It's not a clinical test designed to diagnose something so reliability and validity are irrelevant.
Much like limping - it's an observation that helps figure out the source of the problem. I've not seen any studies on the reliability or validity of measurements of limping - but I know it when I see it.

No one disputes limbing is cinically significant and pathological, motion-wise. It hasn't been agreed upon by movement therapist that hip external rotation (or lack thereof) is clinically important.

[/quote]
No on
Perhaps if Barrett was claiming to be able to make diagnoses based on hip IR (such as location of a problem or determination of a specific dysfunction) then your argument might have some purchase. [/quote]

My understanding is that Barrett "does nothing" (i.e. doesnt diagnose) which is amazingly, what "straight chiropractors" do, which is, not diagnose. The irony!

[/quote]
Isn't it possible that the book is summarily uninteresting and based on speculation and poor argument, independent of who authored it?

All hypothesis are just that, speculation, yet this book is written by a PhD author who, to my knowledge, is the first to synthesize and integrate the the various neurophysiological effects of manual therapies whilst using functional testing in a novel way. Regardless of what is said, if these tests have" CONTENT validity, it's off to a promising start.

[/quote]

Quote:

What I do find interesting is the speed with which you accuse others of anti-chiro bias when the arguments against the book speak to content and not to the credentials of the author. I liken this to playing the "race card".

I've already provided evidence that suggests otherwise.

Quote:

I hope we can talk about this book and the ideas it advances based on the content - after all it should stand and fall on it's own merits, don't you think?
Welcome to SomaSimple.

__________________Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTONEverything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
bernard

__________________Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. L VINCI
We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. I NEWTONEverything should be made as simple as possible, but not a bit simpler. If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein
bernard

You are alienating us, you are not being alienated. My break with this company had nothing to do with stupidity on anyone's part, and I've been no less outspoken for many years. I don't see that in you.

Well, I guess dswayze, you did not read my closing remark. You put the link to the article from Beck. I read it, I commented on it, found aspects that are rather typical and was mildly scathing. Somehow you turned that into a anti-chiro rant? And what does it has to do with SC? Was that under discussion here? Did I miss something?

When Beck proposes rather tall concepts, covering a wild array of pathologies that can be affected by whatever he is doing, the onus is on him to provide strong evidence and better neurophysiology than he did. Even in a short piece - with no references (because there "are so many" ?!?)

It seems you infer a lot from my words: I never said Beck does not KNOW neurology or neurophysiology - I commented on the actual published words in the article. And they are still piss-poor.

I have been as vocal about PTs putting forth garbage from CST and MFR.

Your interpretations of my post tell me a lot about you. And maybe that psychologist could spare some time after my evaluation to check you out?

__________________We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are - Anais NinI suppose it's easier to believe something than it is to understand it.
Cmdr. Chris Hadfield on rise of poor / pseudo science

Pain is a conscious correlate of the implicit perception of threat to body tissue - Lorimer Moseley

Regarding the content in the synopsis, I don't see any strong factual errors and am quite intrigued by some of the propositons. It seems theoretically plausible.--dswayze

Hi dswayze,

None of the following is compelling largely due to how it is written. For example "Mild alterations from optimum...may result in dysfunction of the whole system". Of course the corollary is that it may not. The more probable conclusion is that mild alterations from optimum activities (as opposed to mild but devastating alteration in genetic code) are mostly uninteresting except under conditions of simultaneous and extreme compromise of other systems.

Quote:

It is not until we start to examine the three fundamental activities of the neuron in detail that we begin to realize their importance to the neuron and, hence, nervous system function in both health and pathological states. Mild alterations from optimum in any of these activities may result in dysfunction of whole systems in the neuraxis, such as the altered movement states in Parkinson’s and Huntington’s diseases due to imbalances of stimulatory or inhibitory thalamic activation respectively.
A variety of conditions or states may also arise when afferent stimulation or inhibition is aberrantly distributed asymmetrically to the cortex, resulting in functional hemispheric imbalance which may result or contribute to a variety of learning disabilities, attention deficit disorders, affective and emotional disorders, and central autonomic dysfunctional conditions, including the complex regional pain syndromes and dysautonomia.
It is also becoming apparent in recent years that the functional state of the neuraxis and the functional immune state of an individual are closely interconnected, and states of hemispheric imbalances can result in immune system dysfunction such as systemic inflammatory or autoimmune reactive states.
Correcting functional neurological imbalance requires an extensive knowledge of neuroanatomy and neurophysiology in an attempt to understand the central integrative state of the neuraxis. An understanding of the central integrative state of different areas of the neuraxis is obtained by a variety of testing procedures and observations of gateways to the neuraxis, such as the activity of cranial nerves, reflex activity of muscles, and tonic activation levels or responses to stimuli of the autonomic nervous system.
Intact afferent pathways are identified which, when stimulated or inhibited, will result in the appropriate stimulation reaching a target area in the neuraxis. Stimulation of these pathways is then utilized in restoring the functional state of the area.
Consideration of the current metabolic state of the target area must be considered and monitored as the intervention is instituted and as it progresses so that no damage occurs as a result of over stimulation, which may result in free radical formation and ultimately neuronal necrosis.--from synopsis

Based on the above the following conclusion is reached,

Quote:

Chiropractors are well placed to understand and apply the concepts of functional neurology due to their undergraduate and postgraduate education and their clinical experience in the application of afferent stimuli such as manipulation.

How plausible do you think it is that manipulation is important for the examples provided in the premise, specifically, Huntington's disease, Parkinson's disease, learning disabilities, attention deficit disorders, affective and emotional disorders, and central autonomic dysfunctional conditions, including the complex regional pain syndromes and dysautonomia?

__________________"I did a small amount of web-based research, and what I found is disturbing"--Bob Morris

I'd like to point out the things that do not appeal to me regarding this author's message contained in the link provided, regardless of which branch of the human primate social grooming family tree he happens to be from:
1.

Quote:

Investigations involving functional neurological applications have been published in myriads of journals that span the disciplines listed above and make it extremely difficult to establish an overview of the vast array of material that comprise the state of functional neurology today in a single article such as this one.

Ah, c'mon. Give us a clue as to what train of thought you've taken by dropping some references (besides Carrick's name that is).

2. Use of the word "amazing" snuggled up to another, "interventions".

3. Use of the word "fantastic" next to the words "clinical journey" next to the words "functional neurology".

4. A list of all the equipment the "functional neurologist" "may enlist" in the "quest" to examine and treat. Why? To impress who?

5.

Quote:

It is not until we start to examine the three fundamental activities of the neuron in detail that we begin to realize their importance to the neuron and, hence, nervous system function in both health and pathological states

What? We don't recognize the importance of activities of a neuron to the neuron untilwe "start to examine"? Surely they're important all along.

6.

Quote:

Chiropractors are well placed to understand and apply the concepts of functional neurology due to their undergraduate and postgraduate education and their clinical experience in the application of afferent stimuli such as manipulation.

So.. just so I understand... Being taught for four years how to pop backs, somehow supplies one with all the foundation needed to become a neurologist. Oops, I mean to say functional neurologist.

7.

Quote:

Although the shear volume of material...

I think he must have meant "sheer".

8.

Quote:

"discovery" "excitement" "clinical results are often dramatic" " immediate" "has inspired many a practitioner""embark on this lifelong adventure" "enlightenment and learning"...

In other words, buybuybuybuybuybuybuybuybuybuybuy....

If this is what the writing in the book is like, I don't think I'll review it. Please, no one send it to me. Clearly the book will be another long advert for his friend and mentor's institute program.

Of interest- the only ones here providing any actual "content" regarding the book are the regulars.

dswayze- any discussion of content or an actual argument coming from you? Or are you going to stand pat on your race card?
If you think one post of Diane's showing her disdain of chiropractic (which the quality chiros I've worked with agree with wholeheartedly) stands as some sort of evidence about bias on this entire board, you are mistaken.

Again, what I do see is PTs who pooh-pooh anything done by a chiro and claim they are objective. Also, the bias is clear on the board, I'm not going to fish through the various threads on here that had a were in bad professional taste, one can easily find these by using the search button and finding. IMO it reflects poorly on the forum which otherwise has interesting content.

Kongen:

Quote:

A variety of conditions or states may also arise when afferent stimulation or inhibition is aberrantly distributed asymmetrically to the cortex, resulting in functional hemispheric imbalance which may result or contribute to a variety of learning disabilities, attention deficit disorders, affective and emotional disorders, and central autonomic dysfunctional conditions, including the complex regional pain syndromes and dysautonomia"

THIS sounds more like old chiro-talking in a new jacket. He just didn't mention otitis media and asthma - a small oversight, no doubt. Introducing as many neurological or systemic conditions to make the "tool" he is promoting sound sexy for a private practice flyer.....

I have no idea where Bas can possibly infer that the above passage was "old chiro" and proceeds to take a dig ".. a small oversight, no doubt". As well, I don't know where you guys are linking the "must sign up for specialization/certification" bit. It's only a texbook and there's nothing that I saw from amazon, elsevier or other book dealers that some kind of course is part of the package.

The book is clearly about manual THERAPIES and not exclusively about spinal manipulation as implied by the majority of the posts in this thread. While SMT is no doubt a modality, this book investigates more than just that.

A clinical textbook exploring the neurological impact of vertebral subluxation. It explores and explains concepts, relationships and scientific mechanisms of nervous system function that will aid the chiropractor in understanding the wide variety of patient presentations in many chiropractic offices. It demystifies the clinical results seen in the practice of chiropractic and scientifically validates the clinical success, as well as the limitations, of chiropractic.