"SPOILING is a concept that is fairly difficult to pin down, because in one
instance certain actions are considered spoiling and at other times it is
not.

Your words, actions and deeds can compromise "game secrets" - this is
not meant to sound as wanky as it does. Huge amounts of planning and
time have been expended to ensure this game is rich and diverse. Some
things are designed to be discovered by competent players.

TMUX is full of QUESTS, most involving problem solving [find a particular
bit of gear, give it to a particular monster, unlock a hidden door and so
on] designed for individual players or groups to work them out. In this
instance TELLING someone who has not solved the problem how to do so is
spoiling. It would, however, be acceptable to have them join you in a
group to embark on a quest they have not completed but you have - so long
as there is a degree of them finding out for themselves then that is ok.

TMUX has many labrynths or mazes. Spoiling would be supplying someone with
the way through such a maze - like an instruction set: S S S U N E E E etc
or sharing a MAP with another player that YOU have constructed. Helping
someone OUT of a maze by allowing them to follow you is not spoiling, it
is helping - a central activity for groups and friends. Wonko has
provided maps for SOME of the core areas of TMUX, but not all, in the hope
that players will explore for themselves and remember where they found
stuff. Making your own map is simple, and can be a valuable way of
remembering things.

The DM is not naive enough to think players do all their chatting in-game.
Sharing details via MSN, forums and other forms of communication are just
as inappropriate. Bottom line the game operates on a level of trust and
ethical behaviour. Half the satisfaction of earning a realm spell or that
special bit of gear comes from working it out yourself.

Players should be aware that the DM does, from time to time, monitor
players - if he detects that a player goes straight to a quest solution
without exploration, it will be assumed that spoiling has happened and
punishment will be dished out.

The DM REQUESTS that players refrain from spilling details of HOW to
fulfil realm spell quests particularly, and DISCOURAGES players from
showing lower level players how to acquire higher level gear that they
would not normally be able to get themselves. There is METHOD in this
apparent madness - successful players learn HOW to talk to monsters,
manage their inventory and perform core actions like searching,
picking and so on. Successful players NOTICE DETAIL - Wonko has placed a
rich and varied collection of clues in room descriptions, monster talk
files, appearances of things, locations that make sense and so on -
successful players OBSERVE their gamespace.

Some players have it in their head that it is only possible to play with a
weapon suited to a much higher level [eg. level 1's _needing_ an icepick].
These players invariably when they are defeated are unable to look after
themselves and begin hounding other players for handouts" (help spoiling)

SPOILING, it seems, is impossible to define in an unambiguous way so the
DM has given up trying. Work together, solve what you like, share what
you are comfortable letting a lesser-skilled player knowing on the
understanding that the challenges in this game have been put there to
make the game challenging - share the solutions and YOU impact directly
on the game challenge. If you can live with that, then fine. (help policy)

The above are quotes from terramudx, written by wonko, from the helpfiles on spoiling and policy.

Spoiling is a tricky issue, and this thread was created to discuss the details of this matter. Ultimately on the issues of spoiling, players tend to fall into three camps. The first is the group that isn't aware that this thing really exists, they tend to be newer players more interested in establishing themselves, rather than the intricate nuances of this nebulous concept. They may spoil through ignorance, or not spoil through chance, but they move without higher thought to this concept.

The second group, and the group that i find myself in, generally believe that not spoiling is the right thing to do, and that the total free flow of information is a bad thing. They tend to give hints on problems rather than the whole answer, and treat information as something of value, to either hoard, collect, trade, discover etc.

There is also a third group, that i will not pretend to understand, who seem to believe that the concept of spoiling (as i define and understand it) is wrong, and that for a community to grow and function as a whole, information grouping and trust between players is important.

Last edited by Swampy on Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:11 pm; edited 1 time in total_________________From mud we come, to mud we return...

As a member of the second group, i will be posting my views on this issue and would be interested in hearing with you agree or dissagree, not looking to start a fight, just interested as to where people stand.

It should be noted first off that i believe that hints and starting points should be shared freely. Tmux is a large and diverse world, if there was no communication between players i feel that the community would suffer.

However, i disagree with the sentiments that suggest that grouping with someone, and going and killing stuff way outside their level, when you don't need their help, is good thing. However, that is a tricky issue, because if you do need their help, then the situation becomes mututally beneficial and moves out of spoiling and into fair grouping. The bottom line is this ,a level 15 player taking along a superflous lvl 6 player while he completes a quest involving trades and many steps is imho amounting to the same thing as just telling that player each step involved in that quest. On the other hand a lvl 15 taking along a lvl 8 cleric because he needs a healer to complete the quest, is not spoiling because the lvl 8 is contributing.

Now that probably sounds fairly ambigous, but the bottom line is spoiling is a grey area, and it is up to you to decide who, when where and what becomes a spoil and what is neccessary and positive community building grouping.

It goes without saying that walking around telling people the intimate details of quests, and even the location of non-quest related stuff that they havn't discovered is definitely spoiling and i am dead set against that. However, if two players have each worked out half of a quest and can combine their knowledge to complete it, is that really spoiling? Not really, i would argue.

Last edited by Swampy on Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:41 pm; edited 1 time in total_________________From mud we come, to mud we return...

So what is important enough to be considered a spoil if you told someone? Obviously telling someone the details of any trade is imho a spoil. Telling them the specifics about a rare perm/traffic drop is a spoil. However, if someone asks, nice armour/weapon/wands/spells where'd did you get it, telling them to floop off, is probably not a good response. I would instead give them the general vicinity, and possibly a subtle, (and i repeat SUBTLE) hint on whether it's a traffic/perm/trade in that area is not spoiling, it is helping.

My advice to virtually anyone working on any quest is this. Know your area, know your traffic, know your talkfiles and know your perms. It takes time but patient work though these 4 things will eventually lead you down the right path. When in doubt, talk to the perms.

Sorry, a little off track there. Back to what is and isn't spoiling. Basic facilities should be available to all, i don't think pointing out where the terrace shop is, is spoiling. I think leading someone through one of the many mazes in the game is. Recommending areas to pull traffic is not spoiling. Telling the details of rare traffic drops is. Tellling someone to talk to the perms in an area certainly isn't spoiling, telling them what the perms want to trade certainly is. A rough rule of thumb is this, try and put someone on the right track, rather than spoil the hike for them, there should be an element of people working things out for themselves.

The final point that i wish to make is this, spoiling might help a new player in the short run, but ultimatly it encourages laziness, dependancy, and inability to play by oneself. The same can be said of handing out swags of mad loot to new players. Sure for a while they'll be great, but they won't learn the skills neccessary to survive and function as a tmux player.

Everyone will spoil by accident from time to time, even if they try not to. Ultimately i believe that spoiling makes the game less enjoyable for all, in the long run.

There is also a third group, that i will not pretend to understand, who seem to believe that the concept of spoiling is wrong, and that for a community to grow and function as a whole, information grouping and trust between players is important. In times gone by spoiling was a punishable offence but it has now moved to a matter for each individual to decide.

Firstly, i don't understand what you're trying to say here.

Ultimately, because spoiling has so many gray areas, i do think its up to the player's judgment to decide what is spoiling and what is not. I agree with most of the things said; people shouldn't give away trade infos, spell locations, etc. That just defeats the purpose of the game.

However i have no problem in giving people hints where to start looking for spells or quests. I will readily tell them where to look/who to talk to in order for the info to start a quest, provided that they are a high enough level and understand that i'm not going to give a walkthrough. I will also point of the obvious if they perhaps missed something (like looking at an item description) or try lead them through the thought process of figuring out trades or what to kill. I will also help them kill a monster if they need (not with a character which could easily kill it, but with a lower one so that the other person is doing most of the work). In my opinion, this isn't classified as spoiling.

What bugs me most is that nowadays, simply naming a monster or item someone hasn't come across yet is deemed spoiling. Thats when the definition of spoiling has gone too far.

Now i will take a group of newbies out killing big things they otherwise wouldn't be able to kill, or didn't know how to get there. I'm not talking about taking them on the final monster on the shockbolt quest or along those line, but i don't mind taking people killing say the head jock or the moggy. Big things they would never have been able to solo. Who knows, it might be funner than stuck at students. Because thats why we play right? For a bit of fun? I'm not stupid enough to take them to something which drops the best weapon in the game, but i won't hesitate to let them get a drop if its something better than they're using.

Thanks for the reply tinpan, Will attempt to work through the points you raised.

Ok, first up in reference to the third group, yes, in re-reading that it does seem a little confusing. The last sentance shouldn't really be there, is just meant as a comment as to what what has been ruled in the past, not as a reflection on that group of players. As for the rest of the sentance what is it specifically you don't understand? I'm attempting to point out that there are players who believe that spoiling (As i understand it) is not a bad thing. That is not saying that their views are less valid than mine, but rather that there is a difference of opinion as to what spoiling (IMHO) is.

Ok second, i defs agree with you about the hints and starting points for quests. I have asked you and other players for help on quests/items i have been looking for and usually i get a reasonable response, as to what areas i should be poking around in. Also if players ask me about certain things they are working on, then i will tend to give starting points/areas to look at and agree that that is part of being a community.

I must admit that i disagree with the second half of this point, which is helping players kill monsters that they can't kill without your help. To me, regardless of which character you use, this is basically handing them the final piece of the quest puzzle. If a lvl10 can't kill the shockbolt guardian, and then you help them, and they can, it really amounts to you handing them the quest item, imho, regardless of how hard they have to work to kill a monster, because you've already done this quest. If you hadn't done this quest and you teamed up with them, then i wouldn't have an issue with this at all. Realise that may sound odd, but to me helping other players to beat guardians, when you've already completed the guardians by yourself, or with another group is spoiling, imho.
But i appreciate the fact that your views on this are equally valid.

I would also agree that naming an item or monster is not spoiling. (excpet when that name gives away the items location. {eg the enchant wand}) This is further re-enforced when we consider the fact that the credits lists a whole bag of rare monsters that many players havn't found. No, i would agree, naming items/monsters is by and large not spoiling.

On the final point, i can sorta see what your saying about groups and fun and breaking the routine, but my problem lies in this issue. You've stated that you wouldn't take a group ( i assume we're talking about a large group of relativly low level players here?) to go and kill for the best weapon, but you would take them to kill the head jock, and let one of them get the weapon. To me this seems a bit of a contradiction, due to the fact that the head jock drops a very good weapon, and while it isn't the best weapon in the game, it is the best missile weapon and indeed ranked equal third best weapon in the game, previous to the boatshed. Now, i'm not sure about what you can and can't kill by yourself, but i'm going to work on the assumption you can kill the head jock on your own.

Ok, long winded example time. Lets say you can kill the head jock by yourself, you probs can. You then get say a couple of lvl 7 characters, lets say 4, so 2 players, and so ok guys, who wants to go hit up some big perms? Their in and the party gets rolling and after knocking out some low level stuff you go after HJ. You then kill the head jock, with no problems due to your large party and mad skills and it drops a nice weapon. You, being a generous soul, say ok lads, Jack here is using missile weapons, kit yourself up with this. We now have a lvl 7 character armed with a weapon far outside his level and outside what he himself could have obtained. To me, there is very little difference between this, and saying hey jack, how you going, here's a free rifle. (I assume tinpan that you are a good groupie and keep your team alive ) To me that represents spoiling, because an advanced player as handed a lower player a weapon far outside thier level, that the lower player didn't earn.

Interestingly enough, if you were a lvl 7 player, who couldn't kill the head jock by yourself, who then organised a group and let jack have the rifle, i wouldn't have an issue with this. To me it seems if you can kill it by yourself, then grouping with people and handing them the loot, amounts to giving it to them. But i freely admit that this is one of those afore mentioned grey areas, and that yes, in a lot of situations i wouldn't have a problem with higher players grouping with lower players to kill monsters. My issues come, when higher players start handing out weapons outside peoples levels, and when killing monsters that you know drop quest/trade items in a group that newer players know nothing about.

On the whole tinpan, a well written reply, many things to think about in it.

Have looked at what has been raised, and i feel i need to clear up my views on grouping. I am a little odd because i rarely group, there are several reasons for this but they aren't really releveant to this discussion.

My understanding of grouping is this, people group to have fun, and to kill monsters that they would not normally be able to kill/gain exp faster. I have no issues at all with relative grouping, that is grouping between characters of approx same skill, levels, experience etc. My issue arises when more powerful players, who can kill higher monsters by themselves, group with lower level players who can't and then proceed to hand off high level loot/knowledge to lower players, who imho havn't really earnt it. Eg, i can kill the hj, by myself. If i were to go around and grab some new level 5/6 players and then go and kill the head jock with them in a group, and let them get the loot, to me that amounts to the same thing as handing them the loot while they sit in sickbay. To me it represents disproportionate rewards for only a token effort.

ContributorJoined: 05 Dec 2007Posts: 20Location: back at school, but this time ive joined the dark side...

Swampy wrote:

The final point that i wish to make is this, spoiling might help a new player in the short run, but ultimatly it encourages laziness, dependancy, and inability to play by oneself. The same can be said of handing out swags of mad loot to new players. Sure for a while they'll be great, but they won't learn the skills neccessary to survive and function as a tmux player.

Everyone will spoil by accident from time to time, even if they try not to. Ultimately i believe that spoiling makes the game less enjoyable for all, in the long run.

IMHO, anyway...

My own experience has been that helping out (or spoiling as some people would call it) is essential in the growing of mud players, and benefits in both the short term and long term. Short term, it creates some sort of positive connection between the two people, and in the long term it helps that person to be able to stand on his/her own two feet and have the UNDERSTANDING of how to go about doing quests for themselves.

Let me just tell you about the first quest i ever did. It was the vigor quest. Now i had never played any muds before. I had no idea how to get started, how to talk to monsters or even how quests worked. I remember sitting in sickbay thinking wtfwobbeygong and asking how the heck you did these 'quests'. wonko gave me a hint as to where to get started (definately NOT spoiling, which i believe is too strong a word for what's actually going on here anyway) I think he said something about talking to my deanbeast. So i went and talked to him and it said to inquire about bandaids or aspirin from the nurse. Fair enough. So i went and tried in vain to talk to the nurse. I did not know about talk files, i was just asking random questions. finally a frustrated someone, cant remember who, basically told me to read the damn room description and ask the nurse for a particular item.

Some would argue this spoiling would only help in the short term, with me being able to cast vigor, but would have no benefits and in fact make me more dependant in the longterm. Wrong and wrong. That is because i learned from this helping. IT was not a blind handout. The two concepts i learned from this one simple encounter, and most basic concepts of MUD playing, were to always read your room descriptions, (despite how obvious that might sound, when you're new things don't seem obvious) and about how to talk to monsters.

Now sure i had this spell but I still didn't really understand how quests worked. I sort of knew this one i had just completed was extremely simple and so i was at loose ends trying to figure out how more complex ones might work.

This was when one of my friends, who had played the old mud himself, helped me learn this aspect of the game. He hadn't played the new terramud b4 and so was still searching to complete quests. I was with him in the classrooms and observed how he went about putting clues together. He found an item, and then searched about in a logical area for a person whom he would be able to trade it with. That's how i learned how to get the protection spell. I didn't really earn it for myself because at that stage i wasn't capable of doing so. However following how this guy worked things out and went about solving quests was essential to me being able to quest for myself unaided. I had just learned that monsters dropped items for trade, and you could trade these to other monsters for spells and other items.
I now know wonko has fully documented all this, and perhaps it's just me, but there's a big difference between reading about something and actually doing it.

So you see i learned from people helping me, and watching how they did things. I dont regard that as "spoiling" (because i dislike that term anyway). The only thing i regard as spoiling is preventing the person you're helping out, from having to engage their brain. Once a person starts thinking, it's no longer 'spoling' *shudder* i want people to get smarter, and think for themselves.

So there it is. I was a noob of the highest degree. I was helped, and completed quests by SEEING how others operated and learning in the process. And hey, ultimately it did not encourage laziness (i painstakingly map every singly area). Nor did it encourage dependancy and inability to play by oneself. (I was the first player to solo the Shatterstone spell)

Basically this is how i see it: People should want to do things for themselves, but in the beginning many people can't, so showing them the ropes of the basics is how they will learn. In addition, once someone has exhausted all of their ideas, and are stuck on a quest you've completed, sure y not give em a nice subtle hint to get them back on track. I mean we play for fun, and people putting this big focus on spoiling takes away from it somewhat.

There is so much more fun to be had if people stop being so pedantic and obsessed with helping ('spoiling') Helping should help, make sure it does...

Yes, the first paragraph dosn't raise any points, so i'll move to the second. I'm not really sure what is trying to be said here. As far as i can see through player and dm hints, you learned valueable player skills, that you would not have learned if someone had mearly told you to type, purchase pre nurse. I agree that there is no spoiling, here you worked out a quest for yourself, with a little help, well done. It is also interesting to note that the player who offered you the final clue, you can't actually remember who they were, which sorta contradicts your previous statement that "spoiling" creates a positive bond between 2 people. I to had a similar experience to this involving the fireball quest/bless quests.

Second paragraph, same as above. Once again i agree, not a spoil, valueable skills, not a handout etc.

Third paragraph begins to raise some interesting points. The basic message, and correct me if i'm wrong here, is that by following a more experienced player you learned about player skills, how to quest etc. Once again your quiet correct, this is technically spoiling. One player following another around watching what they do etc and gathering quest details. I'm not going to deny that watching this helped increase your understanding as a player. What i think is clouding this issue, is that for you learning and spoiling went hand in hand. This didn't happen for me, and i suspect that it didn't happen for a lot of other players. I learnt about questing hidden rooms, trades in much the same way you learnt about vigor. A little hint here, A llittle hint there, a lot of frustration and the careful reading of the helpfiles. I find it interesting that you posted both an example of no spoiling and you learning about questing, and an example of spoiling and you learning about questing. If there is anything i would take away from this it is that it is entirely possible to learn how to quest without being involved in spoiling.

Still next paragraph, mmm i would have to dissagree with the point raised, i believe that following someone around while they complete quests is spoiling, regardless of how much you learnt from it.

And here we reach the salient point of the argument which is that since people spoiled to me, and i turned out fine, spoiling is fine. I agree that your are indeed a good mud player. It is here that we reach perhaps a standoff, because my belieft is this. While it is true that a couple of minor quests were spoiled to you as a youger player, what happened far more importantly, is that you were taught about searching, trades, and items. I would argue that it is this teaching, from both examples that has made you the player you are today. And it is this teaching to new players that i would say has encourages players to grow and think for themselves. By all means, give hints, help, yes, but it is not neccessary to spoil to teach, and it is not neccessary to be spoiled to, to learn, as we can see from the first example raised here.

Two final points here. Firstly just because in one case spoiling did not affect player growth, does not mean that it has not in numerous other cases. It is impossible to say what would have/might have happened if this/that did/didn't happen. Who knows? You might have been even a better player if you had been forced to discover this by yourself. And i might not be so against grouping if my first experience in a group involved me getting dragged to an auto attacking room, and then my group buddies attacking me. To take an extreme example, just because one drunk driver gets home safelty does not mean that alcohol does not affect driving ability.

The second point is this, as already stated here, i am in favour of helping, with hints, helpfile recommendations, even retrieving the occasional weapon someone has dropped. This is not spoiling. I have never said it was, it is important and neccessary community building. But what i have seen time and time again is for more experience players who let gear/knowledge/quests fall into the laps of players who do not apprecieate them, and who do not learn from them and to me that is what spoiling represents. It is not taking a new player under your wing and walking them through quests. It is either intentional or accidental spread of knowledge to those who do not appreciate it's worth, or the effort put into obtaining it.

There are some valid points in here, thank you for taking the time to reply, but i feel that you are casting me as some sort of spoiling nazi. I try not to be, indeed i have spent hours tutoring players in how to quest and how to play the game. But i did not need to spoil to do so.

ContributorJoined: 05 Dec 2007Posts: 20Location: back at school, but this time ive joined the dark side...

Ok cool i think you got some of my ideas, but i'll just clear up a few things.

Firstly i can remember who the person was that told me what to tell the nurse but i intentionally didnt' reveal it. I shud've just said this in the first place. my bad.

secondly, according to the shall i say 'definition' of spoiling, i got the impression someone telling another player what to say to a monster is classed as spoiling... perhaps i misread

in the second paragraph it seems you agree that if you gain valuable skills from help, then that is not spoiling.... even if that meant pretty much giving away how to do it. So that's cool you see where i'm coming from

In the case of the protection quest, I was following an experienced mud player in the sense that he had the skills to complete quests, however he hadn't done it before. and we were actually grouping i wasn't just tagging along as it might have sounded like. I can see how this is probs a rare situation to find yourself in. But it's interesting to see you class this as spoiling, instead of 'getting valuable skills' as you commented about the first situation.

next, we get to the definition of my argument. I was not so much trying to say "it turned out in my case so it's ok" as i was trying to say "hey this isn't spoiling, because it helped me become a capable player." -if there's a difference there-XD Which leads me to the point that I think the definition of spoiling is too broad. And i mean this especially for people who actually dont_know_how to quest. We should focus on what the help will do for their development, rather than on not giving them the 'secrets' of the game.

I think we should help those players with that in mind,
but i also have a rule of thumb: that if you're grouping with another player who you know is capable then you can talk and share ideas on how to complete a quest, as well as try and complete it together. I see this as completely fine, bouncing ideas off one another i believe can't be regarded as spoiling because you still have the satisfaction of working together and solving the problem, i'm not sure what your views on this are. I dont judge ability by level so yea...

sure you can say that because one drunk driver gets home safely does not mean that alcohol does not affect driving ability. But what another way of seeing it is that, well one beer is fine as long as you have a meal with it and wait a few hours before driving... and i think that's a better way of describing it.
A bit of help here and there never hurt anyone. I think if i may say so Tinpan and i just have less conservative views.

of course situations all need particular consideration, so there's no way of making a set of specific rules. I think we're all clever enough to judge a situation and give a subtle enough clue so as to not reveal but rather direct the player.

Btw it sucks you had a bad experience with grouping, but i think we all probably have (albeit not quite as extreme as that). You should try it again sometime, there's nothing more fun that being in a good group. That's what i think.

Lot of good points here, but from what i'm reading, there really isn't any spoiling happening outside of groups. As in no one goes out of their way to flash someone details of a quest etc. I think thats generally accepted as being wrong.

Now. Grouping seems to be where the problem lies. What seems Bruce is saying is that players should group with players around their own level of knowledge to avoid spoiling. Whether it be knowledge or gear. The idea behind grouping is for players to play the game together. This means working out quests, killing things etc together. Of course there will always be someone in the group who has more knowledge over someone else. And suggesting that because someone's knowledge is less superior to someone else's is a valid reason not to group is childish at most. Same with suggesting that giving a level one player an icepick (or a weapon which is unavailable to them at their level) will result in them being dependent on others.

The group spoiling which Bruce seems to be against is a tad extreme, the idea of a lv15 barbarian being a circle slave for a level 1 newbie or telling them how to do all the quests. Nothing like that happens. And with so few players actually grouping, i doubt anything like that will happen.

I'm not being offensive or whatever anyone might be thinking, i'm just saying that many arguments against spoiling seem to be on the extreme side of it, and are not properly covering the reality of it.

love and prosperity.

Last edited by mamba on Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

The most common of quests are those for spells. Wands and potions too, but im not going to cover those. I think there are certain spell quests that you should avoid spilling details on and those where a clue or two wont hurt. Here's where i draw the line.

The noob spell quests (protection, light, vigor and know-aura, curepoison, remove-disease and the 1st level realm spells) are those that help should be given on, because noobs need those spells to play the latter of the game.

Up one more rung up the ladder. The more advanced quests. Such as, the detect spells, stun, bless (because its a little complex), levitation, breathe-water (gotta love that one) transport and mend-wounds whose clues should be kept to a minimum and are good quests to work out in groups.

Then theres the higher realm spells. Pretty much the same as the before, but much more valuable. Clues should also be kept to a minimum because the players that will be taking on these know they will be tough. And are great quests to solve in groups.

Ok, have been a way for a while, so this post will be a little long as i will atempt to address and explain points on previous posts. (Once again thank you for your input.)

FIrst point, yes telling people what to ask monsters is spoiling, explaining to someon how to use the selection and purchase commands is not, it is explaining commands and i feel that the nurse has been placed so centraly to help teach players about these commands.

The second point i would like to address, and seems is going to be recurrent is my seperation of help and spoiling. It is possible to help without spoiling. Eg: jack asks bill how to find out what monster X wants. Bill then explains that it is possible by using keywords that the monsters say to work through the talkfile. This is helping.
Jack asks bill how to find out what monster X wants. Bill then walks him through monsters X's talkfiles showing him how to arrive at the trade one. While this is helping it is also spoiling, and can and should imho be avoided.

Let me make this clear, IMO regardless of how much you learn from someone spoiling to you, it is still spoiling, and should not happen. Teach, but only poor teachers NEED to spoil to do so. I am sorry if my previous comments gave impressions to the otherwise, hopefully this will clear it up.

Once again, i think you seem unable to see that it is possible to teach without spoiling, And once again i believe that you can't see that it was not the spoiling that gave you benefits, it was the teaching that accompanied it. Knowing how to solve something like protection, did not help you become a better player, it helped you get protection. Having someone teach you how to solve the protection quest, almost certainly helped you become a better player, and you learnt valueable skills from it. My central theme is this, It is good to teach and nurture new players, but it is not neccesary to spoil to do so. Which raises the question, if it is not neccessary to spoil game secrets, even small ones to teach newer players why should we do it?

Ultimately, i think this arguement boils down to this. You believe that it is impossible to teach without spoiling. I believe it is possible to teach without spoiling, and i don't really see any way of advancing beyond this point, unless you care to throw me a line on this topic. Teaching is important, but i think that not spoiling is also important.

Certainly bouncing ideas off other players is not spoiling. I do it myself. Deliberatly telling them the answers to a puzzle is. This is somewhat of a grey area, and without specific examples, we all have to use our judgement. How much of a hint is to much is up to individuals to decide. On a slightly negative note, i'm not sure what you mean by that comment about levelling, and i can't see what relevance it has to anything...

I agree that all situations need to be judged according to their own merits, hints are fine, but to me, no amount of help or player development justifies spoiling a quest to someone, regarless of how much they learn in the process. Basically because i believe it is not neccessary to walk someone through a quest (spoil) to teach them the skills to complete it.

Once again your input is appreciated, reasoned responses throughout.

And to you ferni, if you reread my reply to hungry's first post, you will find a reference in it towards the end about a bad group experience. To you hungry, fun is in the eye of the beholder, groups can be fun, but so can solo play, each to his own, and me to mine.

ContributorJoined: 05 Dec 2007Posts: 20Location: back at school, but this time ive joined the dark side...

i do not believe you can only have learning through spoiling, I believe certainly that you can learn without spoiling, however i am simply pointing out that there is an upside to 'spoiling' (or helping as i prefer). sure you can tell a person how to do things, but my point is thus:

learn by observing, not just by being told words. see how people do things and adapt your own methods from these, developing your own unique style of play

This is certainly an important way of learning and should not be ignored because of a view that it's spoiling...

In relation to what you referred to as a negative point, i was not at all being negative. I was simply referring to one of your previous arguments that you shouldn't group with lower level players, and i commented that i dont believe level should determine who you group with to complete quests, but rather skill.

Hmm, i had a little difficulty in following this post, i assume the opening half is a summation of my views and the following is a summation of yours? I agree that it is rare for 2 players to have exactly the same knowledge, but i think that i have garbled what i am trying to say. What i am suggesting is that when a group embarks on a quest for a spell/weapon/trade etc, the group should be at the same place along that quest, rather than one player revealing half of it to his buddy and going from there. (Helping, hinting to hs buddy, all good, but just giving it away is IMHO spoiling). But i am not sure that answers what is being raised here. I don't think it is unreasonable for group members to be on the same level of knowledge of a specific quest before embarking on thjat specific quest, regardless of how much they know of other quests. There are also many other things that groups can achieve without comprimising game secrets. As to the icepick thing, this does happen. I have in the past given out weapons to players. I shouldn't have done it and i learned from my mistakes. I have been nagged by new level players who i attempted to give a boost up to, most of these cases no longer play here. It is not common but it does happen. But i accept that this is really hard to prove either way.

I will freely agree that the example i used was an extreme example, but is it that unlikely? While this specific example i don't recall happening, there is one instance that springs to mind where a less experience player has grouped with a more experienced player and through that grouping uncovered invaluable quest information that they otherwise would have had to puzzle out by themselves.

Yes, will agree that many of the arguments against spoiling are extreme, but they happen. For instance, one player felt that it was appropriate to BROADCAST the COMPLETE directions and instructions to the completion of the steamblast and shockbolt quests during lunch one day. The insidious thing about spoiling, is that many players who do it, myself included, often do so by accident, or don't even realise it. I've seen a lvl 16 fighter take a lvll 9 character to go and kill the monsters which guard the silver coin talisman. Believe me, it happens.

Well reasoned, and clear as always, especially the point about extreme examples, will atempt to pick more subtle shades of grey in the future, but extreme examples tend to make it easier to argue between black and white rather than subtle shades of grey.

Thanks ferni, is nice to know i am not the only one who thinks this way. I would agree that more help should be given on lower level quests (though this can still be given without spoiling.) And that players tackling higher quest hopefully will have developed the skills from the lower ones to tackle them effectivley.

Agree'd i should have used the word skill, instead of level, my mistake there.

My question is this, if you agree it is possible to learn and teach, without spoiling, why advocate it? It is possible to teach by hitting students with a ruler for wrong answers, that does not mean that it is a good way to teach.

I suggest, because i do not know, that it is because you do not see a downside to it.
To that end i will shortly list the negative effects of spoiling, as i see them. These are my opinions and i readily accept that you and many others will dissagree with them.
1. A often rewarding challenge is removed from the game, for that player, and a sense of achievement is lost.
2. Players tend not to appreciate the knowledge spoiled to them.
3. Depth is often ruined, or negated.
4. Skills are often (but not always) not learnt.
5. In the words of another player "What's the dissadvantadges of spoiling? It gives little ****s knowledge that they don't deserve, Oh i'm sorry you wanted it in flowery terms?" NOT my words, another player (who wishes to remain annoymous) said this.
Rough, but some truth here, I have worked hard for my knowledge, would like to think that others value it enough to do the same.
6. player dependancy
7. players unfairly dissadvantadges over fellow players who have not had higher level players smile on them.
8. disrupts game balance and philosophy of "If you can earn it, it is appriopriate to your level" and " challenges are there to teach players skills" The learning of skills is in the challenges, they were not designed, imho, to be used as elaborate examples for players to teach others skills.

On the upside, it can also teach valueable player skills, and form friendships. Sure, there are benefits, and the problems don't arise in everycase. But on balance i would say, that the negatives outway the positives. Hungry, you probably don't agree with this, and that is fine. Your experience of spoiling has emphasised the benefits, rather than the negatives. Mine is the reverse.

I do not see a difference between a person telling you how to talk to a monster, and the right keywords, to watching a person talk to a monster and get the right skill words. Both involve learning the same things, and both involve the challenge of getting through that talkfile being spoiled to you. And both are above the classic spoil of the final talkfile being revealed to you. But ultimaltety imho are still spoiling, and in that spoiling removing one of the challenges and sources of depth from the game.

But i would agree to your advice of observation, adpation and developmentation (not a real word i think, but makes a nice triplet.)

Good advice here, and the post helps summarise a lot of the key underlying issues that this post is about.

PS, i would just like to say that i want to thank everyone who has contributed to this post, i think it adds a great deal of depth to this forum, and hopefully will offer some depth (how long are these posts? ) to the issue of spoiling and helping.

ContributorJoined: 05 Dec 2007Posts: 20Location: back at school, but this time ive joined the dark side...

ok here we have another straw man argument (like the beer one) relating to rulers and beating children.

firstly beating doesn't teach anything so that's a false statement

secondly i would prefer you to not twist my post into such a dogmatic standpoint. I simply say that learning by example is a perfectly acceptable way of learning, AND also is by word of mouth. Both work, so y should we discriminate.

The fact is i believe that in some cases we can make better MUD players by using this 'alternate' teaching method. Many people learn by example, so again, why discriminate. Sure players including yourself learn just fine by reading but i know myself and others learn by observation, and I don't mean using the "observation" as a crutch as an excuse to avoid doing the work. In addition, doing things like this with other players is key to building community. Again, y discriminate?

it isn't hurting anyone to use this by example teaching.

Now I will give you an example that is slightly away from the teaching side, and more on the community or group building side. This involved the transport quest, whom myself and Tinpan worked on together as a sort of group project. We had just killed the last Fenris wolf so we thought hey, we're a team lets go get the last spell (at that point) transport. we did the first part of the quest together so that was a team effort, fine. But then we reached a dead end. We were both stumped. so now what?
we left it for a while and then i discovered another part to the quest, but didn't know how to utilize it. Tinpan on the other hand had discovered this other part of the puzzle i was missing. I told him about what i had found, and he realized this completed it. Now Tinpan was subsequently accused of spoiling this quest to me, and i of asking for help. I'm assuming this was because he had the final part, and shared it with me. Of course it would've still remained a mystery had i not shared my information, so why were we being accused of spoiling? Clearly this was teamwork. on neither of our parts was there a lessening of satisfaction, in fact i believe it was greater. So why is this classed as spoiling?

are we really wanting to create a mud where people must solo everything and an existance of community is nil? I believe this example sums up the problem in a nutshell. please feel free to comment about why this is spoiling because i'd like to know more.

Wrong actually, hitting is an example of negative reinforcement, to whit, this thing is bad, because you do it you will get hit. But this is largely irrelevant, and i don't want to get distracted on this tangent, so on to the main arguement.

Here we arrive at the crux of the arguement, which seems to run more or less to this line, spoiling teaches so does word of mouth, some people learn better from people spoiling to them, so why should we discriminate against them?

There are 3 main problems i have with this. Firstly, as i have stated and previously outlined i see many and varied problems outlined with spoiling. (see previous posts list.) that far outweigh any possible advantadges from teaching.

Secondly Hungry, you seem intent on arguing for a small minority of the spoiling that happens, the vast majority of spoiling that occurs is not in reasoned teachings to newer players, it is either accidental or thoughtless without regard to the effects or benefits it may have on the mud.

Thirdly, regardless of how well people can learn from teaching/spoiling the same skills can be taught through word of mouth, without the spoiling. Ultimately, i believe that teaching without spoiling is more in the spirit of this mud, than taking a player and walking him through the quest so he can learn the skills from it, (with what i see as very little effort.)

I would now like to ask you a straightforward question. Do you believe that there are any problems associated with spoiling if it is used to teach? Or do you believe that provided it is used for good spoiling is fine, and that the benefits learned far out weigh the problems (if any) that spoiling creates?

And i would say yes, yes it is hurting people to use spoiling as a way of teaching. My example is this, there are several quests in the mud that require a significant change in thinking. If we were to say that ever time a player who runs up against one of these blocks was shown how to step over it i believe that we would cultivate a community that did not believe in overcoming challenges through hard-work and thinking and who would look for the easy way out. Just because it didn't happen to you hungry does not mean it does not happen. Ultimately if you wish to play in a community where that style of play is accepted there are plenty of other muds who do not mind players telling/showing major quests to new players if they ask, and indeed players who refuse to do so are often mocked as snobs. I would argue that it is not the style of play that we wish to develop here. (Now before the unavoidable, where did this happen blah, blah, blah response kicks in, i would like to say that this is sourced from a forum post on isenguard where i read something along the lines of a character (i assume he was advanced.) going away for a few weeks and then coming back and being accused of being a snob because he didn't take new players everywhere they wanted to go every time they asked him. I am in the process of trying to find it again, and when found will post a link to it here.)

Ultimately i would argue that this is not really spoiling. It has some of the same characteristics, but i would say that this is a great example of players grouping to overcome a puzzle and through their mutual sharing and hard work managed to over come it. No, i would argree with you, this is not spoiling. Now if tinpan had finished the quest himself, and then just told you how to do it, then perhaps it would be a bit greyer, but in this case i would agree that because both players put work in and discovered things for themselves it is not a spoil. well done.

I would argue that no, we don't want to create that community. But not spoiling does not create it. I have never said that help should not be offered to those who ask, and that players should not help teach newer players. I do believe however that it is not neccessary to spoil to achieve this sense of community and that the widespread acceptance of spoiling, even as a teaching method, will lead to the creation of a community which does not value personal effort in working out puzzles, does not value depth, knowledge, hard-work or effective grouping to overcome mututal challenges and that ultimately will look for the easy way out. Spoiling has, for a long time in this game been looked upon as a negative act, it is only recently that it has become less tightly controlled. The question is then, do you believe we exist in a game where players must solo everything and there is no existance of a community? Because for a long time, spoiling was infact a punishable offence and i would argue that did not create the negative community that you have described.

PS grammer was good hungry, well done. Apologise in advance for any misunderstandings that my grammer has created.

Alright. I think we should start brainstorming some guidelines to what is spoiling and what isn't, because players know best.

Firstly, we all know that simply spilling the details of the whole quest is out of the question. As with sharing maps and spilling other smaller details like what to trade etc.

UNLESS. You're in a group. Group spoiling is something that is very hard to difine. If you carry someone on a quest and work it out yourself, you're just showing how to do the quest to that someone which is spoiling. BUT. If like hungry said the group members work together to solve a puzzle it shouldn't be spoiling, it's just working together. Me and Mazil are working on bloodboil atm. if i hadn't informed him of something I found or vice versa that isn't teamwork, it's just stupidity. And anyway, the methods of how groups do quests may vary.

Agree with what ferni is saying, players working together on quests is clever groupwork. Players just running through quests they have already beaten with other players is spoiling. Obviously there are grey areas in that, but i think that is a simple realistic guidline to grouping and questing.

ContributorJoined: 05 Dec 2007Posts: 20Location: back at school, but this time ive joined the dark side...

I find it amusing you liken beating children to spoiling, but nevertheless...
As requested this post will not focus on the learning side.

i think the difference here between us is that i always assume that all players are good MUD players, (that's who i think we should be focusing on). I don't mean in the sense that they are all awesome at fighting or solving, but rather that they want to solve challenges by themselves or, if they want, as a group. But essentially they WANT to work to achieve the goals. To this end, spoiling becomes a non-issue and sharing something now and then is actually quite fun for both parties.

But how do good MUD players come about? this is (if i might steal/borrow a phrase from you wonko) a classic case of nature versus nurture. Personally I believe that in this case it is nature, not so much nurture because i believe the nurturing should have already occurred in reality. I don't think how someone learns to mud (whether it be by example or by written word) will effect their character (the thing with values and beliefs not proficiencies and mana points XD). That means, if they aren't challenge loving, it wont make them so, nor if they are challenge loving will it erase that streak in them. People are resilient and the idea that they will be changed in a text based game seems ludicrous to me.

So, if we have good MUD players, then spoiling becomes a non-issue. I think that's where we were.

I'm am also aware there are quite a few players who really don't want to solve things for themselves. That's what it boils down to. The responsibilty should rest with the player asking for help, rather than the person who could potentially give it. The person (i'm talking away from learning now) knows what it means to get aided, and it's their responsibility to accept that.

If someone wants help killing a monster, sure why not? it's fun to group.Of course you can always say no if you want to. Maybe it'll drop a nice weapon, but who cares? it'll break anyway and there is now an embedded incentive to level high enough so that player can kill the monster for himself/herself. That's how i see it.

people who play this game are smart enough to get that i think. You have mentioned a few times "just because it didn't happen to you" or "it worked out in your case". This implies that there was some sort of chance in what happened. Not true. I decided for myself that i wanted to solve the problems and essentially to BE a good MUD player. there was no luck, chance or any other influence beyond my power. I'm certain that had i learned by only reading i would have developed slower, but would be no better than i am currently.

Once again, if we're talking about good MUD players (and i am) then really the issues of spoiling are barely existent.

But of course even good players occasionally think "ahh damnit i'm really lost on this," and might come to someone and ask for a hint. It is my experience that really all they are after is a slight point in the right direction. They don't want the whole quest spilled out to them, maybe in fact they just want reassurance that yes it is possible to complete it. I see no problem with this, and i don't see it causing a problem. It is perhaps a point we will always differ on.

i'm going to ignore the part about leading people through every quest, because i clearly stated in an earlier post that i don't agree with that. That's my personal opinion.

That's fine if you want to post the article on the other MUD, but what you described seemed to me like a MUD full of players that aren't GOOD MUD players. People who nag and demand to have everything told to them, I certainly wouldn't help them (personal preference), nor would i want to play in a game with them, but you can see that the problem with spoiling originates from them asking, and continuing to demand.

You see i believe that when you have good MUD players, you already have a community where people value depth, knowledge, hard-work and effective grouping. All refusing to give that little reassuring hint does, (but not always) is damage relations with the player. remember I'm not talking about giving away all the directions and steps. This is mainly a way to encourage them to the point where they no longer feel at a loss. Further from that, again, if the player decides he wants to know more, you can gauge how good a player he is. Devulge as much as you want to, but it is not up to us to police them. Usually even saying as much as, "just think about that for a while" will be enough to deter all but the most frustrated players.

Again, all this is determined by the quality of players, which is beyond our control anyway. I believe we have good players, so therefore what harm will relaxing the rules do?

Anyway, in response to your question, yes of course as i already covered, it's silly to use "learning" as an excuse for doing high level spell quests etc. The learning I'm referring to would most likely be restricted to the grounds of terrace, as that's usually where most people stay until they can handle themselves in the big bad world. So quests such as protection and vigor are fine, but again, not the larger quests that are there to test your skill, not build it. Isn't this common sense?

P.S soz bout the long post and not being in line with the section ur running ferni
|<Hungry>|
|~僕のBuchanan は一番~|

What you have said here, as far as it goes, does have it's merits. As a simple guideline it is fine, but the idea of a total non-sharing of information, even at the hints level is a negative thing. The question really under discussion is whether how much help and what sort of help should be given is really what is under discussion imho. When does spoiling stop and helping begin? tricky questions to answer.

I would agree with the grouping questions, but what about things that arn't quests?

And unfortunatly the entire issue of spoiling is an grey area, if you don't want to resort to either of the two extremes, which is not information sharing, or total information sharing.

But your point that we are probably over thinking things is also true, thanks for input, is appreciated

Quests: Hints, at the level of general advice and areas is fine. Telling people to talk to perms/traffic is fine. Telling them which specific perm to talk to is probably not. Hopefully attentive players will listen to clues that are often dropped in conversation. Advising people to search a general area is fine, telling them to search a specific room is not. General suggestions about odd item, trap, talk, emote behaviour is fine. Specific explanation of a specific item, trap talk and emote behaviour is not. Bottom line is give the player the knowledge, and allow them to find the correct situation to apply it in. A lot of this stuff is hidden in the helpfiles, all we do is bring it to light.

Rare items: Telling people they exist is not spoiling, except in rare occurances, for instance the enchant wands name gives away it's location.Telling/showing them the monster that drops them is spoiling. Telling them the area, or helping them work through the logic it uncover which monster is not. Even allowing a person to bounce ideas off you will help. (Note, rare is not always exactly the same as hard to obtain a skee shooter rifle is hard to obtain, but it is common.)

Trades: Same advice that applies to quests, areas general advice, a hand with the logical though process are all fine. Telling them which monster wants what isn't. Allowing them to watch you walk through a monsters talkfile to find out what it wants is spoiling. Telling them how to talk to monsters isn't.

First paragraph.
Hmm, not really sure i agree with you there. Not all mud players are good players, regardless of how much you want us to be. I must confess that if someone walked up to me and said "hey bruce, have you done this?" And then said "well would you like the starting point to the quest, or the whole thing spelled out to you?" i would find myself hard pressed to say the starting point. Shamefully i must admit i would ask for the complete quest. But i would never ask someone for the complete quest without it being specifically offered to me, because ultimately i do not believe that they should tell me. If i am walking down the street and a man offers me $5 i take it. But i do not walk down the street asking men to give me $5. Some players enjoy the challenge, i enjoy the rewards. Am i a bad player then hungry? I have solved the same quests and challenges as you, but for different motivations. An interesting point though, it seems you are an optimist, i, obviously am a bit of a pessimist, probably partially why we sit on opposite sides of the fence.

Once again i must confess that i have lost your point in the first couple of lines, but the second half i understand so will write to it. I think you have something of a valid point in the resiliance of players, to some degree. I will again use myself as an example. I believe that, if people had handed me the answers to each problem i embarked upon i would not have gained the skills i had today. Up until about the commune, my approach to problem solving was to play by every dirty trick in the book, buying information, trading services for information, annoying people, i've pulled them all. Am i proud of it? Not at all. But the commune changed me. Because no one else had solved it's challenges i was forced, for the first time to tackle significant problems without assisstance, and from their i have grown into the player i am today. If someone had simply spelled out the answers each time i asked, and i would have i would have remained the whiny noob i once was. To say that terramud does NOT change people is ridiculus. While it is true that i still work to the rewards rather than challenges, i now believe that the right way to earn these rewards is to work for them, rather than annoying or buy the information. But as i have said above if it was offered freely i would not refuse. Diets are great, but a bar of chocolate sitting in front of you is hard to refuse.

We do not have only good mud players as you define them. Since, as you yourself state, we do have "good" and "bad" players so spoiling is an issue. Do you honestly believe that the majority of players will sit there for hours on end, questing, if the can simply ask and have the information there in a few seconds? Once again hungry you might, but i wouldn't.

Once again we reach this issue of helping players kill monsters out of there level. Now, a lot of monsters i don't really mind if you group and kill them, provided A. it dosn't help them solve a quest, and B. it dosn't disrupt game balance. The game is not designed for lvl 6 players to run around with skee shooter rifles. C. Grouping with some random low level players and not others could be seen as problematic. Why him and not me? this is a game with a young player base, people think like this. Killing higher monsters does encourage others to level/group to kill them, or it can (and this happened to me) encourage them to manipulate players to kill them for them and steal the loot. Eg. a new lvl 5 or so player had worked out the item for the protection quest and he knew where to get it from. Instead of levelling/grouping he did this. He peeked at various monsters till he found one carrying the item, attacked it, fled dropping his weapon, and then asked me to retrive it. Naturally i obliged, killing the monster. He then grabbed what the monster dropped despite the fact he did nothing to kill it. I asked him to hand it back, saying he hadn't earned it. First he emoted handing it back. Then when i told him to stop screwing arouind he gave it back and basically threw a tantrum. Did that player deserve for me to give him that item? or did the player who levelled and grouped with his friends to get it deserve it? Players look for shortcuts, it's recognized as an attribute to achievers.

I think perhaps you misunderstand the chance i was implying. There was no chance in you deciding to become the mud player you are. The chance lies in set of circumstances occuring to you, and not to someone else, eg a person who might not have your ideals and ethics. The fact that you emerged from a certain set of circumstances in a certain way, does not mean that everyone going through those circumstances will emerge the same. Hope this clears up what i meant.

Hungry) "But of course even good players occasionally think "ahh damnit i'm really lost on this," and might come to someone and ask for a hint. It is my experience that really all they are after is a slight point in the right direction. They don't want the whole quest spilled out to them, maybe in fact they just want reassurance that yes it is possible to complete it. I see no problem with this, and i don't see it causing a problem. It is perhaps a point we will always differ on. "

Ok, the wanting to know whole thing i have covered, people like myself would like it, but we don't expect it and don't ask for it. As for the last line ARE YOU SERIOUS?

I'm not sure how much clearer i can make this.
I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH GIVING HELP. HELP IS GOOD. HINTS ARE GOOD. THESE DO NOT HAVE TO BE SPOILING.

(Me)"Ok second, i defs agree with you about the hints and starting points for quests. I have asked you and other players for help on quests/items i have been looking for and usually i get a reasonable response, as to what areas i should be poking around in. Also if players ask me about certain things they are working on, then i will tend to give starting points/areas to look at and agree that that is part of being a community. "

(Me)" would instead give them the general vicinity, and possibly a subtle, (and i repeat SUBTLE) hint on whether it's a traffic/perm/trade in that area is not spoiling, it is helping. "

(Me) "It should be noted first off that i believe that hints and starting points should be shared freely. Tmux is a large and diverse world, if there was no communication between players i feel that the community would suffer. "

I'm sorry that seems a little harsh, but i am just shocked that you have missed this.

Apoligise for you thinking i was imply you support full quest spoiling, was not the intention of that point. Was trying to point out that your arguments were focused on a minor branch of spoiling.

*cough* moving on.
Paragraph here might be difficult to follow if you havn't read some of the forums in a mud called isenguard. They basically showed players continually whinging and bugging other players for weapons loot etc. I agree with you i wouldn't help them either. But this game is not immune. In the past i *believe* that a character called pinesol deleted himself (he was the highest character at the time, at lvl 13 or something.) because he was constantly being harrassed with demands for weapons etc. I think sometimes hungry you wear rose-tinted glasses. Our mud has and had players who do behave like this. IMHO we have fewer players like that because of our spoiling policy. Player here are not spoon fed but are usually forced to learn and grow and outgrow the noobish, tell me now phase.

Once again see above, i'm not sure how you have missed this, but i am in favour of offering hints. But your idea of a hint seems to be somewhat different to mine. Just what exactly is giving a hint? To me hints are at this level, General area, general advice, talk to perms, search, map, etc. SUBTLE specific advice on certain characteristices of items. But a lot of what you have said to me IMPLIES that you think a hint should be in greater detail, and that extra detail i think moves it into spoiling. Specifc perms to talk to, specifc areas to pull traffic, specific item characteristics, are spoils to me. But i admit that the difference is difficult. But to me, allowing someone to watch you walk through a monsters talkfile, because they are stuck with it, is spoiling, regardless of how much they learn from it.

Have already covered our "good" players point.

Players do not stop learning. Players do not complete the first couple of newbie quests, do a little dance and say hello mad skills. The following quests require changes of thinking either unique to them, or one other quest. Transport, detect-invis, Steamblast, levitate, bloodboil, bless, shatterstone, levy quest involving the bookhire ghost, getting into the barc, retreat rings, backhanders, and many others. ALL the quest listed here require players to evolve and change their thinking. For you perhaps these were easy, for me, each of these represented the need to evolve a new way of thinking. They both tested challenged and taught. People do not just learn their skills from the basic quests and then stroll around testing them. People learn new skils from various quests many of them advanced. How can you say that the larger quests do not build skills? The other problem i have with this, is that if you say ok, we will use the minor quests to teach and the major to test, is that where do you draw the line? as i have already said many of these quests challenge players ways of thinking and in that challenge players either learn, fail, or have someone spoil it to them. To me, there are no small quests, only quests designed for players at different levels (of thinking.) How far is it right to teach them through spoiling? To me that is a question impossible to answer and so i will give the same aid to each person regardless of the quest they are attempting and their level. Each quest is a challenge for the players doing them for the first time.

Once again thank you for your input, well written and thought provoking as always.
(had a problem with the quote buttom sorry, might make it a little difficult to follow.)
I have an offer for you though. You write your next reply, and then i will write a short one, covering one point and then you do one etc etc. these long posts are just getting ridiculus.

retriving his weapons and gear and keeping them for yourself mwhahahah im just a terrible type of person arnt I. i sometimes want to give noobs weapons but when annoying noobs ask me for stuff annoyingly and incessently i usually try to kill them (or blind and silence them )but one time a killled a lvl 8 and stole all his money (old school rulz) and then i never saw him on again. I feel somewhat evil and twisted but thats just the type of player that ive been shaped into.

_________________Just because I have a Burnt Face doesn't mean I can't fight crime.