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. . . Tanomo was such a high ranking councillor of the Aizu clan, I have doubts whether such a busy man could have inherited such a complex system of jujutsu . . . .I believe that Sokaku's father, Sokichi, thought it would be easier to teach the art to his eccentric son if such an important clan figure like Chief Councilor Tanomo Saigo was nominally in charge of the instruction of Daito-ryu

I do not believe that Sato had a hidden meaning - But, I think your theory is as plausible as any other. Truly. For all we know, Tanomo taught Takeda how to walk in court settings, how to act formally, and elements of body skills were taught in such settings. And this turned on a light in that genius and he extrapolated it into his extant martial skills. All speculation - but that's as good a theory as any that I have.

I don't have anything more to contribute on this thread that I haven't said here or elsewhere, so I'm away.

But, consider that among all of the things we know about Takeda, nowhere do we hear of Takeda being a liar.

Not a liar, of course, but maybe he wasn't telling all the truth or all the relevant data.

If we read Tokimune's bio of his father, we find Tanomo not as teacher of martial skill but

Sokaku studied under Chikanori Hoshina (aka Tanomo Saigo) who was an assistant priest of the Nikko Toshogu Shrine in Mt. Futara. He studied the secret mind reading technique of aiki and acquired various super-human powers such as an unyielding spirit, clairvoyant power, and prescience.

This after his musa shugyo years around Japan.

Sokaku was sent by his father to Tanomo, for being tamed and for making him a priest, but after some time Sokaku (a teenager) escaped and tried to join Takamori Saigo troops. Musa shugyo stars.

Quote:

Perhaps, the entirety of internal skills were not from Tanomo, but there are indications that something was taught. Something which Takeda defined as his "aiki" later on.

I think about Tanomo as the cherry on the cake, not as what the cake is made of.

Not a liar, of course, but maybe he wasn't telling all the truth or all the relevant data.
If we read Tokimune's bio of his father, we find Tanomo not as teacher of martial skill but

Sokaku studied under Chikanori Hoshina (aka Tanomo Saigo) who was an assistant priest of the Nikko Toshogu Shrine in Mt. Futara. He studied the secret mind reading technique of aiki and acquired various super-human powers such as an unyielding spirit, clairvoyant power, and prescience.

This after his musa shugyo years around Japan.

Sokaku was sent by his father to Tanomo, for being tamed and for making him a priest, but after some time Sokaku (a teenager) escaped and tried to join Takamori Saigo troops. Musa shugyo stars.

I think about Tanomo as the cherry on the cake, not as what the cake is made of.

I think these comments, these sorts of "snapshots" of history, still need to be taken with a grain of salt. They tell us very little and since Daito ryu itself has no verifiable history, and the little that we have is surrounded in goofy, odd, disconnected and very unusual pedagogy.
If Takeda had not been so damn good, and had not produced a string of such exceptional men (thus vetting a method) most would have written his story off with that of the Ninja crowd.

Is this comment by Tokimune supposed to be definitive?
Heck lets add this one too.
Takeda also said. "The secret of aiki is to overpower the opponent mentally at a glance and to win without fighting."

I'm not at all to surprised to read of mind reading or enhanced perception as a side effect of ki in Asia. If we want to go down that road we can present a better argument than a few passing comments:

Stories of other of Takeda's students,
Yoshida Kotaru. Who was himself supposedly immersed in mind control and occult and himself also considered by many to be a man of incredible martial skills
One of his students tells of learning things in this regard... to watch an individual who was on the other side of the room and begin to explain everything about the individual and how ‘it all made sense'. He watched the way the person walked and said, ‘you can tell everything you need to know about a person by the way they walk'. He watched how they were dressed, watched the way they ate their food, watched their eyes, and anything else that was evident and this could helpt you read them as a person Sound familiar? Just like Takeda watching the women at the inn and saying she was crazy because he could read her mind?"
He later recounts Yoshida's interest in hypnosis.
And then of course we have Ueshiba... yet another of Takeda's men, off channelling the gods!

You can see these referrences in the modern age with a student of Kodo, Nishikido Sensei, who chose to name his own art "Hikarido the way of light." According to Nishikido, when you learn true aiki, your body will shine wherever you go, all the time. Oh my!
What would be reading a hundred years from now if Nishikido turned out to be a martial genius?

Worthy of not in that time period Yamguchi was involved in mind control, hynosis and the occult. All of these things have as much credibility as a tengu birthing Takeuchi ryu and TSKSR itself being founded by scroll from heaven.
I do not and would not...assign too much to these things.

How do these few comments stack up against so many quotes and stories of Takeda wherein he routinely refers to aiki as a very real and physical manifestation, as noted and supported by several students accounts? Taken as a whole, I think the student accounts present Takeda as a man immersed in the practical. His mentioning "mind reading" a couple of times (in an era where this stuff was popular anyway) during his eighty six years on the earth doesn't phase me in the least in light of the students many accounts of him dicussing aiki as a physical skill. There were too many times when he was asked about aiki and it was all body control. We also now know that Sagawa stated there were solo exercises and a body method to aiki in creating an aiki body, they were told never to reveal (gee what a surprise). In fact he see that when given the opportunity when asked about there being otherworldly things; wall passing techniques and flipping tatami and such Takeda dismissed them saying "Not to be foolish and believe in such nonsense." Hardly seems like a guy who would assign his learning aiki....to court ritual or a mental skill. Until proven otherwise there is no reason I can see to discount what he said.

Little is conclusive with Takeda. I can't get attached to any statement or find any conclusions yet to Takeda's history. Ellis put flesh on the mans bones with some assertions of his own. And he offered some interesting possibilities with Tanamo's possible involvement with ICMA. But all we have our these "snapshots" of a mans life we know little about.

Quote:
. . . Tanomo was such a high ranking councillor of the Aizu clan, I have doubts whether such a busy man could have inherited such a complex system of jujutsu . . . .I believe that Sokaku's father, Sokichi, thought it would be easier to teach the art to his eccentric son if such an important clan figure like Chief Councilor Tanomo Saigo was nominally in charge of the instruction of Daito-ryu

I do not believe that Sato had a hidden meaning - But, I think your theory is as plausible as any other. Truly. For all we know, Tanomo taught Takeda how to walk in court settings, how to act formally, and elements of body skills were taught in such settings. And this turned on a light in that genius and he extrapolated it into his extant martial skills. All speculation - but that's as good a theory as any that I have.

I don't have anything more to contribute on this thread that I haven't said here or elsewhere, so I'm away.
Best
Ellis Amdur

It's not that he might have had a hidden meaning...he might have had complete ignorance of the subject.
How does "learning aiki" equate with a "complex system of jujutsu?"
It doesn't.
I think it completely plausible that these guys didn't have a clue where Takeda got it from. If they really did...hell if Takeda really had something better to offer... we would have heard much better evidence than the wierd, out of place, things they have offered. It also fits in with their perplexed reactions to certain lines of questioning. How much did they know, versus the popular idea of lying and obfusaction as a Japanese norm to avoid revealing what they wanted you to know.
An example being the five questions Sato was given in a letter addressed to Ueshiba, the first of them being "Why are you lying about me?" Did Sato know anything about this or was he just a delivery boy?

What if certain stories were indeed the true ones.
Such as him learning from his dad and grandpa
Such as his learning other Koryu in his musa shugyo travels
That his growing skills and internal power were then magnified with learning aiki (maybe the tenants of IP/aiki from Saigo Tanamo
It explains other suggestions such as Takeda never repeating a technique because.... by and large "they weren't techniques yet."
What if certain private comments "That he was riffing with aiki, on the bodies of people and both he and his students were "recording the reactions" ....as waza. Waza that by and large is very weird compared to traditional koryu jujutsu and IMO (and as you well know is many many others as well) isn't of much use at all without aiki.
There are certain stories that make just as much, if not more plausible sense when pieced together that support both your theories of his grandfather and father, his koryu musa shugyo and his learning aiki from Tanamo. all rolled inot one complete whole. As such it can establish a framework for Daito Ryu being a modern invention based on aiki and supported by prior koryu body knowledge, tactical and practical experience.
All of which fits perfectly into "Hidden in Plain sight."
As you say what "turned-on the light in the mind of a certain young genius, and he extrapolated"...as opposed to what may have been laid out in explicit detail... we will never know.
All the best
Dan

I think these comments, these sorts of "snapshots" of history, still need to be taken with a grain of salt. They tell us very little and since Daito ryu itself has no verifiable history, and the little that we have is surrounded in goofy, odd, disconnected and very unusual pedagogy.
(...)
Little is conclusive with Takeda. I can't get attached to any statement or find any conclusions yet to Takeda's history.

....Just fwiw. "Outlier" does not imply any sort of value judgement. It is just an expression of a piece of data that doesn't "fit".

Hello Keith,

As one bean counter to another, "Isn't it pretty to think so".

For decades as a behavior analyst in clinical and experimental settings I have often found myself wishing that people would just take outlier as a data point i.e. see it your way. Never seems to work that way though. It's been my experience that in most endeavors, blogging on the web included, interpretations are often made well before all the the observations have been reported -- if objective data entered into it at all.

When thinking this way gets me down I just remember the statistician who - at his shotgun wedding - was heard to mutter about losing all his degrees of freedom by testing for goodness of fit.

A local historian in Aizu found out Sokaku learned Aiki from a Soothsayer who learned Shugendo not from Hoshina.
he researched about Sokaku pretty well.check this site.http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/ikezuki2

A local historian in Aizu found out Sokaku learned Aiki from a Soothsayer who learned Shugendo not from Hoshina.
he researched about Sokaku pretty well.check this site.http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/ikezuki2

Sorry if this was double post

Many thanks for the information and the link. I will work through Mr Ikezuki's material, for I am curious about what information he had that was not available to the editor of Hoshina's memoirs.

I look forward to your conclusions about the purported link with Shugendo, Peter. The only connection between Daito Ryu and Shugendo I'd heard before was the founder of Hakko-ryu, Okuyama Ryuho, joining a Shugendo sect . . . but this was after he had studied DR (to whatever extent) with Takeda Sokaku.

I look forward to your conclusions about the purported link with Shugendo, Peter. The only connection between Daito Ryu and Shugendo I'd heard before was the founder of Hakko-ryu, Okuyama Ryuho, joining a Shugendo sect . . . but this was after he had studied DR (to whatever extent) with Takeda Sokaku.

O hisashiburi,

The main topic of the forthcoming Columns 20 and 21 is how the Japanese wrote history, including during and after World War II. Of course, the main target is Kisshomaru Ueshiba. However, Mr Ikezuki has written two books about Sokaku Takeda and has a lengthy blog site...

Mr Ikezuki has written two books about Sokaku Takeda and has a lengthy blog site...

Best wishes,

PAG

It has been awhile.

So taking a look at Mr. Ikezuki's material and commentary should be interesting for you and hopefully worthwhile for the rest of us. As always, I appreciate the considerable energy and time you put into the research and writing of this rather incredible series of columns. Thank you. I hope (would assume) there will be a book in the works as a result . . .