A friend of mine got the first model of Tesla. I thanked him for being an early adopter. They drive the price down for the rest of us. I got a Prius model 1 and felt it was worth the extra to be an early adopter. Great car. No trouble. The effing dealer's mechanic totaled it in a road accident last week and I can't find another one with such low mileage.

Don't argue with the "well I can't drive it from x to y" without spending all night charging. There is NO distance they will find acceptable - if it was 12000 miles between charges they'd complain you can't drive it from the US to Europe because it doesnt float.

With all due respect, for example, I have to drive almost 500 miles from Calgary, Alberta to Peace River, Alberta for a project. Now I drive a truck and where I am going a car wouldn't be an option anyways.

I quite often have to drive this kind of distance for work. Also if I go to visit my dad on a weekend it's a 400 mile trip roughly each way. The inability for a vehicle to either make it there all in one shot, or be refuelled quickly is an issue for me. Until an electric vehicle can overcome the range hurdle (minimum of 12+ hours on the highway) then for me it's a non-starter.

Representative of the unwashed masses:I quite often have to drive this kind of distance for work. Also if I go to visit my dad on a weekend it's a 400 mile trip roughly each way. The inability for a vehicle to either make it there all in one shot, or be refuelled quickly is an issue for me. Until an electric vehicle can overcome the range hurdle (minimum of 12+ hours on the highway) then for me it's a non-starter.

Well then you are in the .1% people. Most people drive 60 miles per day. That's well within the Tesla's range.

cameroncrazy1984:Representative of the unwashed masses: I quite often have to drive this kind of distance for work. Also if I go to visit my dad on a weekend it's a 400 mile trip roughly each way. The inability for a vehicle to either make it there all in one shot, or be refuelled quickly is an issue for me. Until an electric vehicle can overcome the range hurdle (minimum of 12+ hours on the highway) then for me it's a non-starter.

Well then you are in the .1% people. Most people drive 60 miles per day. That's well within the Tesla's range.

Ok, now how do you convince the populace at large that they should spend a premium for a less flexible vehicle. That's the problem Tesla has to overcome. Not even being smarky. Just facty.

Representative of the unwashed masses:Ok, now how do you convince the populace at large that they should spend a premium for a less flexible vehicle. That's the problem Tesla has to overcome. Not even being smarky. Just facty.

No, I'm going to be "facty."

Nissan's plug-in-only Leaf has sold about 12,000 units since its debut in late 2010, so...there may be less to "overcome" than you think.

cameroncrazy1984:Representative of the unwashed masses: Ok, now how do you convince the populace at large that they should spend a premium for a less flexible vehicle. That's the problem Tesla has to overcome. Not even being smarky. Just facty.

No, I'm going to be "facty."

Nissan's plug-in-only Leaf has sold about 12,000 units since its debut in late 2010, so...there may be less to "overcome" than you think.

So you can get one for about 38k Canadian (guessing 30k American) then you add in a charging station at home, that's not cheap So lets call it 40k American.

So there is a market for those who will pay a premium price for a non-premium car, call it prestige or just believing in the electric car. Now you start selling 500,000 a year that's mainstream acceptance. Electric cars are getting better no doubt about it, just not there yet.

I'd be more willing to get a Volt, you get the best of both worlds that way.

Helios1182:unlikely: I can drive it from Denver to Albuquerque without an overnight stop to recharge?

Honestly, how often do you drive more than 300 miles in a day? Do you own a full size truck and moving van, just for the one time a year you need it? Or do you rent one when you need it and own what works for 99.9% of trips?

I live in Denver. 300 miles is not that far. Denver to Santa Fe and back is a four-a-year 500 mile day trip for 10,000 waves and good green chili. I go to fencing tournaments in El Paso and single-day each way. I'd say I go more than 300 miles in a single day 15-20 times a year.

So how I think of electric cars is "Cute gizmo that might be great if I lived in New York or LA and didn't go as far as I do as often as I do but as they are they'll just make me spend the night in the middle of what used to be a one-day trip." So no, this new car won't make me re-think electric cars.

So you can get one for about 38k Canadian (guessing 30k American) then you add in a charging station at home, that's not cheap So lets call it 40k American.

So there is a market for those who will pay a premium price for a non-premium car, call it prestige or just believing in the electric car. Now you start selling 500,000 a year that's mainstream acceptance. Electric cars are getting better no doubt about it, just not there yet.

I'd be more willing to get a Volt, you get the best of both worlds that way.========

I don't think you want to mess with a Volt.If what I've heard is true, the battery has to be replaced after about 8 years, or 100k miles, at a cost of $8,000-$9000.

Car looks pretty cool but it is expensive. I know they want to offer a model in a lower price range in a few years. I'm still not sure if pure electric is the way to go for a lot of people (maybe as a second car) but it is cool to see an American car company innovating. And maybe they will also help push the technology forward.

haemaker:VictoryCabal: Durendal: Am I the only one that thinks this is a horrid idea? The whole point of physical buttons and knobs is that only a slight glance and the feel by hand can locate what you need with minimal eyes off the road. Not so with a touchscreen, especially if a small bump has you hitting the wrong button, and then you have to undo, go back, find the right one...I just can't see this as being a step forward.

You're not the only one at all. It doesn't long to learn all the buttons in your car by feel, and then you can control every feature without ever taking your eyes of the road. Stupid, stupid idea, but it looks cool just like THE FUTURE so I think we're stuck with it.

If you guys are taking your hands off the wheel, you have already failed. Use the buttons on the steering wheel for the functions offered there, or voice commands, otherwise pull over.

TommyymmoT:I don't think you want to mess with a Volt.If what I've heard is true, the battery has to be replaced after about 8 years, or 100k miles, at a cost of $8,000-$9000.

The 8 years and 100k mile warranty is true, but the cost is not. The present cost for a replacement battery is $2250-3000. It is unclear what the cost will be in 8 years (of 100k miles). The expected average degradation of the battery in 8 years is 30%. The 8 year 100k miles doesn't mean the battery stops working at that point.

downpaymentblues:But there "is" some work being done to add "gears" to electric cars to add more range by keeping the car in the most efficient performance range. Google can help you if you are interested.

It would seem the obvious solution would be a continiously-variable transmission, like the Prius (and a number of gas-powered cars) uses.

downpaymentblues:TommyymmoT: I don't think you want to mess with a Volt.If what I've heard is true, the battery has to be replaced after about 8 years, or 100k miles, at a cost of $8,000-$9000.

The 8 years and 100k mile warranty is true, but the cost is not. The present cost for a replacement battery is $2250-3000. It is unclear what the cost will be in 8 years (of 100k miles). The expected average degradation of the battery in 8 years is 30%. The 8 year 100k miles doesn't mean the battery stops working at that point.

===========You're probably right, but I just glommed this off some forum:

larry4pyro01-23-2012, 12:07 AMOver on the Leaf forum someone called a Chevy dealer asking about the $3,000 battery. Turns out that's the cost of the battery enclosure, you still need to add three or four cell modules estimated to cost $1400 each. So the rumours is the Volt battery runs between $8K - $9K. I read Mikes battery cost estimate and the costs for the various options sound reasonable. My guess is a battery replacement 8 or 9 years from now will only be around $4k, which includes trading-in the old battery. It would really be nice if the future battery also had a bit more range.============

If you consider the fact that EVs 8 years from now, are likely to be much more improved, (lower cost, and with greater range), it still does not make the Volt an attractive option on the used car market.

TommyymmoT:If you consider the fact that EVs 8 years from now, are likely to be much more improved, (lower cost, and with greater range), it still does not make the Volt an attractive option on the used car market.

I think I've said this before here, but I'll say it again: the Volt seems to have been specifically designed by GM to prove that a hybrid/electric car is simply not feasible.

/it might have worked if the Prius hadn't been on sale for years before the Volt's launch//and the fact that GM built the EV-1 20 years ago.

Treize26:Um...There's a pretty big difference between "mostly" and "entirely".

Not to mention the fact that this isn't BMW, they don't have a track record. If I offered you a ... TreizePad that I feel just blows the iPad away, and show you how awesome it is (and it is awesome), how comfortable would you feel just buying it from me at the same or greater price point, with no guarantees that I will even be around to support it in 5 years?

Welfare Xmas: Everybody who can afford a $50K - $100K car raise their hands. Hmmmm, some how I don't think this is going to catch on.

*raises hand*

And I'm not even close to "wealthy." There's a market for it out there. I wont be an early adapter of this car though. I like my gasoline engines too much right now. I just might get one of these, however.

CtrlAltDestroy:Treize26: Um...There's a pretty big difference between "mostly" and "entirely".

Not to mention the fact that this isn't BMW, they don't have a track record. If I offered you a ... TreizePad that I feel just blows the iPad away, and show you how awesome it is (and it is awesome), how comfortable would you feel just buying it from me at the same or greater price point, with no guarantees that I will even be around to support it in 5 years?

[upload.wikimedia.org image 241x79]

[images3.wikia.nocookie.net image 120x161]

[upload.wikimedia.org image 298x238]

[upload.wikimedia.org image 200x58]

[www.ascariraceresort.com image 200x200]

[i665.photobucket.com image 400x300]

It's been done before. It can be done again.

And all of the manufacturers you've listed make toys. Most at $1 million a pop or more. Tesla's after an entirely different market here.

PvtHike:And all of the manufacturers you've listed make toys. Most at $1 million a pop or more. Tesla's after an entirely different market here.

Koenigsegg CCX - Around $650,000

Aerial Atom 3 - Starts at $52,480

Gumpert Tornante - $500,000

Noble M600 - $306,000

Ascari A10 - $650,000

Pagani Zonda - $500,000 (was 320k at it's debut 10 years ago)

Whar one million, whar?!

Yes, most are toys. But that makes the "risky" part of the point that was raised even more risky. Yet these companies are still around.

Want even riskier? The Atom. It's within the range of the blue collar crowd. And it's a "toy." It's even riskier for the sub $100,000/yr crowd to buy one because if it breaks they can't laugh it off and buy something else. But Ariel is still around and doing better than ever.

But, either way, my point still stands. A company can come out of nowhere, offer only luxuries, and be successful.

Hell, both Japan and Korea have broken into the US market with ALL of their cars and now are absurdly successful. And it's not that theHonda came in years ago and took over i>Harley Davidson's market. Motorcycles are pretty damn "luxury" and/or "toy" and a foreign rival with no established foothold in that market walked in and biatch slapped the reigning king.

China will be the next to enter the US market. And I'm willing to bet that they will end up doing pretty well.

unlikely:I live in Denver. 300 miles is not that far. Denver to Santa Fe and back is a four-a-year 500 mile day trip for 10,000 waves and good green chili. I go to fencing tournaments in El Paso and single-day each way. I'd say I go more than 300 miles in a single day 15-20 times a year.

So how I think of electric cars is "Cute gizmo that might be great if I lived in New York or LA and didn't go as far as I do as often as I do but as they are they'll just make me spend the night in the middle of what used to be a one-day trip." So no, this new car won't make me re-think electric cars.

Fair enough. An electric car may not suit your transportation needs at this point. However, the majority of people do city and suburban driving exclusively, and certainly under 300 miles per day.

If you want to get in on the action, a hybrid might be a better option. While optimal for city driving, they are also rated higher on the highway than their gas only counterparts. And even if you decide to opt for a gas only car, highway driving allows them to operate in their optimal fuel efficiency range for extended periods of time.

This is cool and all but I think what electric car makers need to do is have easily replaceable and standardized battery packs. The tech for the rest of these cars is fine but the batteries are the weak spot, the tech bottleneck. Once the battery can be popped out you can swap it every few years if need be to keep the car in tip-top shape. You can also swap it if there is a new battery technology in a few years that makes the old tech obsolete. And this also opens up a market for used batteries which will lower the price of the cars.

Also: there have been ideas of "charging stations" based on this technology. Instead of charging the battery, you stop into a service station with a place like they do oil changes, and your battery is simply swapped for one with a fresh charge. This keeps everyone's battery the same as new (and of the latest technology), would make a "fill-up" probably take about 3-5 minutes, and would eliminate the need for home charging stations (though you could still use one, of course).

Don't argue with the "well I can't drive it from x to y" without spending all night charging. There is NO distance they will find acceptable - if it was 12000 miles between charges they'd complain you can't drive it from the US to Europe because it doesnt float.

With all due respect, for example, I have to drive almost 500 miles from Calgary, Alberta to Peace River, Alberta for a project. Now I drive a truck and where I am going a car wouldn't be an option anyways.

I quite often have to drive this kind of distance for work. Also if I go to visit my dad on a weekend it's a 400 mile trip roughly each way. The inability for a vehicle to either make it there all in one shot, or be refuelled quickly is an issue for me. Until an electric vehicle can overcome the range hurdle (minimum of 12+ hours on the highway) then for me it's a non-starter.

Also the touchscreen and frankly the rest of the interior is fugly.

Homeboy, your company pays for your truck anyway (or you bill it back if you're independent). The most key part of your statement is that cars aren't an option for where you're driving anyway. We all drive company paid diesel trucks for a reason.

Now, the 20 min commute from my house to the shop where I pick up my truck or hop in my supervisors and go to work for 2 weeks? Yeah, I can easily do that in an electric car (difficulty - charging station at the shop to keep it charged for 2 weeks in the winter). But I don't have to prove my penis is big by driving a pickup, so I'm an oddity in this industry.

To everyone reading this thread filled with Fark experts, just stop right now. Go to jalopnik and read what what is basically the only real review of the car. I knew Fark was filled with blowhards, but I've never seen both sides be so wrong.

Dwight_Yeast:CtrlAltDestroy: China will be the next to enter the US market. And I'm willing to bet that they will end up doing pretty well.

They've got to meet our emissions/import standards first, and they've also got to stop making cars which are just copies of other company's cars.

True. But they have been specifically engineering cars for our market. They are capable. Hell, the copies that they make are so good that you can take body parts off of the real thing and bolt them to the fake with a perfect fit, and vice versa.

duffblue:To everyone reading this thread filled with Fark experts, just stop right now. Go to jalopnik and read what what is basically the only real review of the car. I knew Fark was filled with blowhards, but I've never seen both sides be so wrong.

Uh, Jalopnik has had a hardon to see Elon Musk destroyed since he started Tesla. They were the ones who spent several years trying to prove that the company was a ponzi scheme.

/I like Jalopnik, but they're no better than the rest of the American auto press at this point

Don't argue with the "well I can't drive it from x to y" without spending all night charging. There is NO distance they will find acceptable - if it was 12000 miles between charges they'd complain you can't drive it from the US to Europe because it doesnt float.

With all due respect, for example, I have to drive almost 500 miles from Calgary, Alberta to Peace River, Alberta for a project. Now I drive a truck and where I am going a car wouldn't be an option anyways.

I quite often have to drive this kind of distance for work. Also if I go to visit my dad on a weekend it's a 400 mile trip roughly each way. The inability for a vehicle to either make it there all in one shot, or be refuelled quickly is an issue for me. Until an electric vehicle can overcome the range hurdle (minimum of 12+ hours on the highway) then for me it's a non-starter.

Also the touchscreen and frankly the rest of the interior is fugly.

Homeboy, your company pays for your truck anyway (or you bill it back if you're independent). The most key part of your statement is that cars aren't an option for where you're driving anyway. We all drive company paid diesel trucks for a reason.

Now, the 20 min commute from my house to the shop where I pick up my truck or hop in my supervisors and go to work for 2 weeks? Yeah, I can easily do that in an electric car (difficulty - charging station at the shop to keep it charged for 2 weeks in the winter). But I don't have to prove my penis is big by driving a pickup, so I'm an oddity in this industry.

You're right I do get paid for mileage when I use my truck for work, no reason to be snarky. My point is that an all electric isn't practical for those who don't want to be limited in terms of daily range. Get the range over 12 hours on the highway per day and I'll think differently. As for the truck? Not only does it provide income I like trucks. I don't jack them up, chip them etc. mine has a 5.3L with a 6 speed auto that gets great mileage.

The charger's hood is off at the moment as I'm working on wrapping up the engine build (stock 440 strocked to 505", balanced forged rotating assembly, main girdle and high-end main caps, aluminum ported heads,etc - recent update was to configure megasquirt-3x for sequential injection & timing. Got it running last week, but need to get the a/c hoses finished up and some other minor wrap-up work on it before I put the hood on.

The leaf, meanwhile, 12k miles in a few days more than a year, $25/month. Probably 95% of our family's driving uses that car. The charger is really just a hobby project... But a fun one :)

Benevolent Misanthrope:Elon Musk, Tesla's co-founder and CEO, has vowed to make the Model S the best car in the world, and hopes to sell 20,000 a year -- at prices between $54,700 up to $105,400 -- once the factory ramps to full speed.

Yeah. Because if there's anything that spells "car company success", it's a price range in the 90th percentile of standard gasoline auto prices.

New tech always has a high price tag. For a good example color TV was actually available way back in 1953 but didn't take off until 1968 because the prices were too high.

The prices will come down as the product gains some market share - hopefully in less than 15 years.

thesubliminalman:revrendjim: doglover: haemaker: If you guys are taking your hands off the wheel, you have already failed.

I hope this is irony because anyone who can actually drive drives one handed at least most of the time. It's only hard turns that require two hands, even without power steering.

Yes, some of us still drive a manual.

In the 70's I learned to drive in a VW Beetle while shifting, clutching, passing a bong and holding a beer between my legs and changing 8track tapes and scraping the frost from the inside of the windscreen. What do I win?

Don't argue with the "well I can't drive it from x to y" without spending all night charging. There is NO distance they will find acceptable - if it was 12000 miles between charges they'd complain you can't drive it from the US to Europe because it doesnt float.

Yeah, there's a lot of cranky old fogey's who hate new technology in this thread.

Sultan Of Herf:No internal combustion engine?...not interested. I dont care how fast it is, I dont care how well it handles. Without the sound and feel of an internal combustion engine, a car is simply less.

That's the same non-argument many people put forward about horses in the early 20th century.

kg2095:thesubliminalman: revrendjim: doglover: haemaker: If you guys are taking your hands off the wheel, you have already failed.

I hope this is irony because anyone who can actually drive drives one handed at least most of the time. It's only hard turns that require two hands, even without power steering.

Yes, some of us still drive a manual.

In the 70's I learned to drive in a VW Beetle while shifting, clutching, passing a bong and holding a beer between my legs and changing 8track tapes and scraping the frost from the inside of the windscreen. What do I win?

You should have won a cancelled license.

What? For owning a beetle or scraping off frost? How do you keep both hands on the wheel?