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Re: US Womans Soccer 4th World Cup

Originally Posted by Dallas Tex

It’s my understanding that the men’s team as well as the women’s team are paid based on a percentage of revenue generated by their respective teams. And that percentage is currently larger for the women’s team, so if they were paid ‘equally’ it would actually be a pay cut for the women’s team.

Help me understand what you were trying to say with your above quote.

If that is your understanding then you don't understand. If you do your homework as suggested, and not have someone else think for you, then you will gain some clarity and perspective on the topic.

Re: US Womans Soccer 4th World Cup

This team is becoming increasingly tiresome to endure. Simply be appreciative of fans and remain graceful.
In her speech on live broadcast yesterday, Megan Rapinoe closed with, "NYC, you are the motherf*cking best!"

She could not think of a better and classier way to conclude her speech to the assembled crowd?
How about, "We love and appreciate your terrific support! Thank you on behalf of our whole team."

Re: US Womans Soccer 4th World Cup

Originally Posted by Dallas Tex

It’s my understanding that the men’s team as well as the women’s team are paid based on a percentage of revenue generated by their respective teams. And that percentage is currently larger for the women’s team, so if they were paid ‘equally’ it would actually be a pay cut for the women’s team.

Help me understand what you were trying to say with your above quote.

Back on track:

The U.S. Soccer Federation wrote in a court filing that the two groups are paid differently due to differences in their collective-bargaining agreements. The men collectively bargained for what the federation calls a "pay-for-play" structure that is incentive-laden. The women's collective bargaining agreement includes guaranteed salaries and benefits.

According to The Washington Post, which cited copies of both agreements, female U.S. soccer players can sign contracts that provide an annual salary of $100,000 and additional bonuses for wins and ties. The men do not get annual salaries, but they get larger bonuses per game — including a guarantee of $5,000 even if they lose.

Under these structures, according to the newspaper, a female player who played (and won) 20 exhibition matches would receive just 89% of what a male player would get under the exact same circumstances. If both players lost all 20 matches instead, the payment would be the same for both groups: $100,000.

According to the lawsuit filed by U.S. women's players, the men and women were compensated differently by U.S. Soccer for past performances at the World Cup.

The women received $1.725 million for winning the 2015 event, according to the lawsuit — though it's important to note that this was prior to their current CBA, which was finalized in 2017. Meanwhile, the men received $5.375 million for just reaching the Round of 16 in 2014, the lawsuit alleges. (In a response filed with the court, U.S. Soccer denied these claims.)

The arguments that follow are pretty straightforward: U.S. Soccer can point the finger at FIFA and say that it would pay men and women the same if the governing body awarded the same prize money. Female players, however, can argue that it is the federation's responsibility to ensure equality in pay based on results — regardless of FIFA.

I think this is more a FIFA issue than a USNT issue. The reason the focus needs to be on FIFA is it is essentially a 'non-profit' governing body which is suppose to promote the sport.

Re: US Womans Soccer 4th World Cup

Originally Posted by Blue Jays

This team is becoming increasingly tiresome to endure. Simply be appreciative of fans and remain graceful.
In her speech on live broadcast yesterday, Megan Rapinoe closed with, "NYC, you are the motherf*cking best!"

That statement really tied the event together.

You’re gonna sit there, with a straight face on, and tell us you’re offended that a world-champion athlete dropped the f-bomb?

Re: US Womans Soccer 4th World Cup

Originally Posted by Blue Jays

This team is becoming increasingly tiresome to endure. Simply be appreciative of fans and remain graceful.
In her speech on live broadcast yesterday, Megan Rapinoe closed with, "NYC, you are the motherf*cking best!"

She could not think of a better and classier way to conclude her speech to the assembled crowd?
How about, "We love and appreciate your terrific support! Thank you on behalf of our whole team."

Because then she wouldn't be Megan Fucking Rapinoe. The men's national team had Clint Dempsey as a World Class Asshole who accomplished all of nothing for the better part of the MNT's existence. Rapinoe is involved in what's been named the Greatest Goal in Women's World Cup history -- Wambach's header against Brazil to force PKs in the 2011 semifinal at the death of play -- and was probably the most consistent player for the team in this World Cup. You get to have some swagger when you're arguably the baddest soccer player on the planet at the moment.

Originally Posted by King Of Dirk

I hear a lot of talk about how some (one in particular) of the players are ruining their moment by politicizing things. I can see that, but I'm more inclined to think it's a shame the nation is so jacked up that athletes feel they need to weigh in on such things. If the people did their part, we'd have public officials who reflect our values, and then the team could "shut up and play." Until we can behave like (and elect) grown-ups, I'm glad public figures like Ms. Rapinoe are making noise.

What you're asking for is a thing that's never happened as long as sports have been part of the public consciousness in America. Sports figures are agents for change in the country, and can drive policy, not the other way around.

Re: US Womans Soccer 4th World Cup

I am for equal pay for the world cup. Obviously, the revenue between men and women sport is tilted big time to the men. And people will argue that is captialism and that is that. Well, common on now. Even in the most captialist societies there is room for soical justice and enpowerment for a minority. Title 9 is an excellent example. The US is ahead of most Europe and the rest of the world when it comes to womens rights. I am not saying we are do not have room to improve but spear heading this movement could open the door to a global feminist movement that I would find refreshing.

on aside I find women XC MTB far superior to mens XC and female CX slightly better than mens CX. But it really doesnt matter because is stinking sports and sports dont matter unless you believe in the need of collective conscious and then you understand that sport like religion is an excellent way to introduce social change. So pay the F'ing women.

Re: US Womans Soccer 4th World Cup

Originally Posted by joosttx

I am for equal pay for the world cup. Obviously, the revenue between men and women sport is tilted big time to the men. And people will argue that is captialism and that is that. Well, common on now. Even in the most captialist societies there is room for soical justice and enpowerment for a minority. Title 9 is an excellent example. The US is ahead of most Europe and the rest of the world when it comes to womens rights. I am not saying we are do not have room to improve but spear heading this movement could open the door to a global feminist movement that I would find refreshing.

on aside I find women XC MTB far superior to mens XC and female CX slightly better than mens CX. But it really doesnt matter because is stinking sports and sports dont matter unless you believe in the need of collective conscious and then you understand that sport like religion is an excellent way to introduce social change. So pay the F'ing women.

FIFA is not really capitalist at all. It is a multinational sport-governing 'non-profit' which is better than capitalism since you have now captured your market and no longer are competing with other interests. Their remit so to speak, is to use their funds to promote the sport. This is one of the reasons they receive so many tax breaks and other benefits globally. They historically subsidize all sorts of little soccer programs around the globe. Historically the subsidy was spread to garner votes for Sepp Blatter so he could remain head of the organization and get all of his nice little perks. IOOC works in same way. Since FIFA have 4bil+ in cash on their balance sheet, I think they should open their wallet and pay more. Social Justice can be a cause to offset their many many years of corruption. Instead of spending 90mm a year on legal fees defending themselves from historic corruption charges, they should throw some people under the bus and reallocate the 90/yr.

Re: US Womans Soccer 4th World Cup

Originally Posted by vertical_doug

FIFA is not really capitalist at all. It is a multinational sport-governing 'non-profit' which is better than capitalism since you have now captured your market and no longer are competing with other interests. Their remit so to speak, is to use their funds to promote the sport. This is one of the reasons they receive so many tax breaks and other benefits globally. They historically subsidize all sorts of little soccer programs around the globe. Historically the subsidy was spread to garner votes for Sepp Blatter so he could remain head of the organization and get all of his nice little perks. IOOC works in same way. Since FIFA have 4bil+ in cash on their balance sheet, I think they should open their wallet and pay more. Social Justice can be a cause to offset their many many years of corruption. Instead of spending 90mm a year on legal fees defending themselves from historic corruption charges, they should throw some people under the bus and reallocate the 90/yr.

Re: US Womans Soccer 4th World Cup

Originally Posted by theflashunc

What you're asking for is a thing that's never happened as long as sports have been part of the public consciousness in America. Sports figures are agents for change in the country, and can drive policy, not the other way around.

Thank you for explaining that to me. I now see the error of my ways, and will stop hoping (and working) for a society free of hate, bias, and bigotry. I had heretofore dared ask for a large number of things that have never happened.

-Jasper

"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend." - Thomas Jefferson

Re: US Womans Soccer 4th World Cup

Originally Posted by King Of Dirk

Thank you for explaining that to me. I now see the error of my ways, and will stop hoping (and working) for a society free of hate, bias, and bigotry. I had heretofore dared ask for a large number of things that have never happened.

My point is that even in eras when things were run by adults, to your point, athletes were still politically engaged and active in the civic discourse. They've always played a vital role in bringing conversation to the fore. Don't wish for a world where athletes can just "stick to sports," wish for a world where everyone is politically engaged and vocal.

Re: US Womans Soccer 4th World Cup

I wonder...if Ms Rapinoe said "Make America Great Again" and wore a MAGA hat while accepting her awards, would you still be glad of her noise making?

I lost interest in this team fast due to:

1: the 13-0 Thailand game. I know you don't let up at that level, but the celebrating of every single goal was not IMO showing good sportsmanship.
2: Ms Rapinoe political statements. I don't agree with her opinion, and that's my right. I agree that she has the right to say what she wants - and I have the right not to watch her play.
3: The "teacup" move vs the UK. Again, show some class.

So now the talk show tour, and every appearance will no doubt present an opportunity to slam the President. I'd rather hear about soccer.

Equal pay: Womens pro sports simply don't bring in money, so they don't make any. It's sad, actually, but it's true. Ever go to a women's pro hockey game? I have, several, and you get a larger crowd as a high school game. WMBA anyone?

Cycling: Women don't make anywhere near what the men do. And that totally sucks.

Re: US Womans Soccer 4th World Cup

I wonder...if Ms Rapinoe said "Make America Great Again" and wore a MAGA hat while accepting her awards, would you still be glad of her noise making?

I lost interest in this team fast due to:

1: the 13-0 Thailand game. I know you don't let up at that level, but the celebrating of every single goal was not IMO showing good sportsmanship.
2: Ms Rapinoe political statements. I don't agree with her opinion, and that's my right. I agree that she has the right to say what she wants - and I have the right not to watch her play.
3: The "teacup" move vs the UK. Again, show some class.

So now the talk show tour, and every appearance will no doubt present an opportunity to slam the President. I'd rather hear about soccer.

Equal pay: Womens pro sports simply don't bring in money, so they don't make any. It's sad, actually, but it's true. Ever go to a women's pro hockey game? I have, several, and you get a larger crowd as a high school game. WMBA anyone?

Cycling: Women don't make anywhere near what the men do. And that totally sucks.

Well, despite being a conservative (or perhaps because of it) I'm not a big fan of President Trump. I bet if I had a chance to chat with Ms. Rapinoe over dinner, we'd find we disagree more often than not. But I get your point, Corso, and I agree. With exactly the same performance stats, if she were a de facto spokesperson/figurehead for certain other beliefs or movements, she'd be excoriated by many of the same people who currently adore her. Only certain fundamental rights are en vogue.

I'm proud of our team's accomplishments, but like you I could not sustain the level of interest many had. The 13-0 didn't bother me at all, and though I think the celebrating was a bit much I think that hardly makes the USWNT unique in high-level sports. For the record, I hate that shit when NFL football players do it, too. And though I'm across the political aisle from Ms. Rapinoe, I think she's right to say the women seem to be scrutinized for this in a way that, say, these chaps just aren't:

I didn't follow as closely for the same reason I no longer watch every single stage of the TdF, Giro and Vuelta: I just don't have time to do all of the things that are important to me. I don't watch the first few rounds of any tournament except March Madness, and there only because the occasional 15-seed/2-seed upset is a glorious thing to behold. I have family in Charlottesville, so I am deliberately NOT mentioning 16-seed/1-seed upsets. I will watch the semi-finals and finals of most anything, though.

To your point on the difference in money brought in, I can't argue, and neither can anyone else in good faith. The numbers simply are not there. I wish it were different, but it isn't. The topic comes up a lot recently, and I always make it a point to ask the person complaining about the difference in dollars what they thought about the third place match between Sweden and England. It was a really exciting 2-1 match. Pull up the video and get a good look at the crowd. No, look more closely...there really are at least 400 people in those stands if you really focus.

Until that's "fixed," pay isn't going to be equal. And though I have not researched it, I am told the teams in the Women's World Cup actually get a higher percentage of the total FIFA "take" than teams in the World Cup. I'll make up numbers, but let's say the ladies get 12% of a billion dollars and the fellas get 8% of six billion dollars. Are the guys underpaid? Should they demand the same percentage the women get? If, someday, the women generate as much revenue as the men, should their percentage go down? I don't know, but I know it's part of having a fair and honest conversation about who gets what.

A thought experiment: at the 2022 World Cup in Qatar (it shouldn't be there, but that's another issue) a member of the U.S. Men's National Team refuses to place his hand over his heart for the anthem, and turns his back on the flag. He states, profanely, that he won't go to the White House because President Warren will not take a stand against the fact that (here's the part where it stops being hypothetical, btw) young men who do not register for the selective service are not eligible to receive federal student loan funding, but no such requirement exists for women in the United States. Put another way: "Boys, it is acceptable for lawmakers to demand that, if they wish to receive a college education, the economically disadvantaged males in America subject themselves to the possibility of being slaughtered for a war they don't believe in. But we'd never expect to hold women to the same standard." I ask you, is this U.S. National Team soccer player treated as a hero? Does he receive the same amount of media coverage (negative and positive) as Ms. Rapinoe?

Anyway, Corso, I'm rambling now and I'm trampling all over my resolution to eschew the outrage fad. Or maybe I'm guilty of "whataboutism," whatever the fuck that means. I'm going to try again to put it right tomorrow by riding four hours with no Garmin/Wahoo/Strava/Cateye/Avocet/whatever, and see if I can't carve out a few moments of just not being angry or upset at anyone or about anything. I'll make it up to you by buying dinner at Michael's next time I'm near Newburyport. Does the fire code up there allow for two non-Democrats to be in the same town at the same time?

-Jasper

"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend." - Thomas Jefferson

Re: US Womans Soccer 4th World Cup

Originally Posted by Corso

I lost interest in this team fast due to:

1: the 13-0 Thailand game. I know you don't let up at that level, but the celebrating of every single goal was not IMO showing good sportsmanship.
2: Ms Rapinoe political statements. I don't agree with her opinion, and that's my right. I agree that she has the right to say what she wants - and I have the right not to watch her play.
3: The "teacup" move vs the UK. Again, show some class.

I agree with your statements, especially 1 and 3. There is grace in victory and defeat in sporting contests and excess in front of defeated rivals isn't gracious. It is condescending and tacky, at best.