If you really had a strong faith and were a preacher, then you wouldn't be demanding proof, you would have seen the Spirit moving and that would be enough. If you never had the Holy Spirit witness to you, then your faith was never true, and what you're telling me is untrue. If you never saw the Holy Spirit acting through others, then your faith was never true, and you never received the Spirit of God. How could you be a preacher but miss the presence of the spirit or never even received it? That makes no sense what so ever.

If what you're telling me is true, you backslid on a weak faith, having no witness from the Spirit, nor did you ever truly commit yourself because you would have received the spirit. The horrible condition of the world I am speaking of is the lack of Gods love as expressed by the hearts and minds and spirits of mankind; the world follows after death, and has earned its reward.

again, you're coming off as a dick. But whatever. I don't enjoy being preached too, and let the record state that I've taken the blasphemy challenge so even if your god is real there is no hope for me.

Mark 3:28-29 (King James Version)28Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

I Emilie (last name hidden) deny the existence of the holy spirit.

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"Great moments are born from great opportunities." Herb Brooks

I edit a lot of my posts. The reason being it to add content or to correct grammar/wording. All edits to remove wording get a strike through through the wording.

The horrible condition of the world I am speaking of is the lack of Gods love as expressed by the hearts and minds and spirits of mankind; the world follows after death, and has earned its reward.

Whenever people say crap like this I have to ask: Where is your control group? How do you know a bunch of god-loving people, all grouped in a monoculture of proper religiosity, would have a better world?

I'm guessing at some point they'd start killing each other over arguments about whether or not Jesus needed deodorant or something.

You live, we all live, in a world where too many people need to be right. And tothesea is an example of this. You read "Seek and ye shall find" and you went out and sought and you found something thing now you've got it exactly right and all of us who disagree with you, whether atheist or wrong wrong theist, is now an enemy.

On the bright side, it's normally not to bad being such an enemy. With you spending all your time trying to convince your imaginary god that you're worthy of his imaginary love, you don't really have the time to burn any of us at the stake. Either that or you fear being fined by the EPA for doing such things. I don't know which it is.

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It isn't true that non-existent gods can't do anything. For instance, they were able to make me into an atheist.

Tothesea, I would like to know about this god of yours.You seem old enough to know about other gods so which one is yours? You say you know your god so please give us some details about what happened when it came to you and changed your life. What were the circumstances?

You say the world has a problem because of the lack of god's love as expressed by the hearts and minds and spirits of mankind. Is this love for your god or is it your god's love for mankind? I am not sure what you meant, although it seems the first interpretation is more meaningful. I will go with that one until you correct me.

Since I lived in China for some years, are you saying the Chinese don't love your god so "the world follows after death, and has earned its reward" I wonder what that means. I don't know but it sounds meanspirited.

Did your god tell you to do anything other than witness your conversion? After all, if there are such "problems" existing shouldn't you be doing something to correct the situation? What is the point of a god working with you and doing nothing for everyone else. No wonder others see a touch of arrogance.

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People are 'erroneously confident' in their knowledge and underestimate the odds that their information or beliefs will be proved wrong. They tend to seek additional information in ways that confirm what they already believe. Max Bazenman, Harvard University

May as well say you used to be smart, but then you rode your motorcycle without a helmet and rammed your head through a block wall.

Christianity, the religion of lying, loathsome little trolls who'll do ANYTHING to regain dominion over the world and rekindle the endless cycle of wars of Christian-versus-Christian, and Christian-versus-EVERYONE that Europe so enjoyed for a thousand years after the sad religion took hold.

I like to bring this loony lady up because she so epitomizes the insulting 'I was just like you' statements that the most moronic of religious morons love to puke at us. And she wants to get into congress and 'let jesus rule' through her. Oh, goody.

Thank you for joining our forum. It would be easier on you and especially on the people reading your posts if you would consistently use the quote function. You can learn about it here. Please take some time to practice. If you have questions about it, feel free to PM me.

If you really had a strong faith and were a preacher, then you wouldn't be demanding proof, you would have seen the Spirit moving and that would be enough. If you never had the Holy Spirit witness to you...

I assert that there is absolutely no objective empirical evidence for this alleged Holy Spirit, and that the subjective experience of "the Spirit moving" is 100% generated by the human nervous system.

If you feel otherwise, kindly demonstrate your True Christian™ superpowers by restoring a limb to an amputee or catapulting a mountain into the sea.

Romans 9 says you are wrong, I would still like to know what do you know about the history of your myth. Do you wonder why NO CONTEMPORARY HISTORIAN wrote a word about Jesus. Philo who lived at the same time in the area as the alledged Jesus never wrote about the saints wandering the streets or any of the other miraculous deeds the gospels claim?

It was a few months after I made this decision that God let me know He was there. He let me know that He was there, had always been there, that He loved me, and that I would be working for Him for now on.

I was open to the possibility of God existing, but not unless it was proven to me, and I would never have cracked open a bible to seek it out. I wasn't looking for God at all. God tapped me on the shoulder by His own volition. He revealed himself to me, despite the fact that I was an unbeliever.

Until He comes to you personally, and lets you know, you don't know Him at all. You can't conceive of Him. It seems like nonsense. There is a lot more going on in reality though than what you can see. From what I have witnessed, there is no way for any human mind to perceive God unless God decides to reveal Himself to that person, period. They will continue to believe whatever it is they believe until God decides, for whatever reason, that it's time. That time for many of you may never come.

What an interesting view. So, you are saying that it is entirely down to your god as to whether anyone is an atheist or believer? And that your god will, deliberately, NOT engage with many of us....ever.

What afterlife do you believe in, tothesea? What happens to the people that your god decides he will never reveal himself to? Does it condemn them for something you assert is completely beyond their control?

I came to a place in my life around that time of 27, where I started to really notice the world was changing for the worst. The love and connection I felt with it seemed to be diminishing rapidly. From everything I had observed, the world was on a course of self-destruction. People were growing unhappier, more detached and judgmental by the minute. I asked myself what I could do, if anything.

Step B

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I decided that I would never truly be happy unless I was doing something to counteract what was going on. I couldn't go on doing my own thing, caring as deeply as I did for the world, and watch it die. I had to do something. I decided that I would try to do something to save it. Yes, I know how it sounds, but that was my thinking.

Step C

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It was a few months after I made this decision that God let me know He was there.

You created a god in your mind to make yoursself feel better about things. Happens all the time. You are not unique in this.

I came to a place in my life around that time of 27, where I started to really notice the world was changing for the worst.

In what way is the world changing for the 'worst'?

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Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birdsMailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee

You say you have found God (or, rather, that God found you, I guess), but that you are still not religious. I'm assuming that you are Christian, and of the ilk that contends that the "relationship" with god is the important thing, though you have not actually made any of this clear. It would be helpful to understanding you if you did. It would be helpful to know your stance on salvation as well. Is it through faith or works? Or are you the Universalist type who believes we basically all get to heaven?

Most Christians we get here want to reply to our claims of never having found God that we were "not searching with an open heart", or such. You accuse Gimpy of having weak faith despite her background, and give that as the reason that she "backslid". And yet, you, who were completely uninterested in God, were somehow chosen to be touched and spoken to in a way which made it utterly impossible not to respond to.

Which is it? And, what of free will? I'm assuming, also, that you buy into the free will concept to explain how people do not accept god. What makes you so special as to deserve this selective treatment? If he could do this for you, why not for all? If he is loving and wanted nothing but our salvation, would he not extend the same undeniable courtesy to everyone?

Your testimony really doesn't make sense, and especially so when we don't know the position you are coming from.

If you really had a strong faith and were a preacher, then you wouldn't be demanding proof, you would have seen the Spirit moving and that would be enough. If you never had the Holy Spirit witness to you, then your faith was never true, and what you're telling me is untrue. If you never saw the Holy Spirit acting through others, then your faith was never true, and you never received the Spirit of God. How could you be a preacher but miss the presence of the spirit or never even received it? That makes no sense what so ever.

Ah, I always love a good claim of being the OneTrueChristiantm. I was a Christian too, Presbyterian, just as good as you. You want to beleive you are special, tothesea. You want to claim some magical being cares for you and only you. You want to believe that no one could possibly find your beliefs wrong because you have invested so much of your self-worth into them. I have found them wrong and can . I've read the bible as a believer and as not. I prayed and prayed for God to help me salvage my faith. I got nothing. Why is that, tothesea? Why has your god evidently abandoned me and thus damn me? I certainly didn't abandon him without a fight. I have come to the conclusion your god doesnt' exist at all. No evidence for it no evidence for the claims of the bible, nothing.

I am curious. Have you read your bible? Many "good Christians" haven't. Do you really know what you are professing to believe in, rather than accepting what others tell you to beleive in? I have to doubt it.

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If what you're telling me is true, you backslid on a weak faith, having no witness from the Spirit, nor did you ever truly commit yourself because you would have received the spirit. The horrible condition of the world I am speaking of is the lack of Gods love as expressed by the hearts and minds and spirits of mankind; the world follows after death, and has earned its reward.

and the world is much better than it has ever been. Less slavery, better health, more food, less war, less crime, etc. You seem to desperately need to create a fantasy to excuse your belief. The lies that you repeat to yourself are sad and if your faith is only built on lies and fear, it doesn't have much going for it.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

If you really had a strong faith and were a preacher, then you wouldn't be demanding proof, you would have seen the Spirit moving and that would be enough. If you never had the Holy Spirit witness to you, then your faith was never true, and what you're telling me is untrue. If you never saw the Holy Spirit acting through others, then your faith was never true, and you never received the Spirit of God. How could you be a preacher but miss the presence of the spirit or never even received it? That makes no sense what so ever.

If what you're telling me is true, you backslid on a weak faith, having no witness from the Spirit, nor did you ever truly commit yourself because you would have received the spirit. The horrible condition of the world I am speaking of is the lack of Gods love as expressed by the hearts and minds and spirits of mankind; the world follows after death, and has earned its reward.

Why is it so important to you to try to discredit other people's claims of faith? How does that help your argument? What does it prove? Whether Emily or Gimpy or me or anyone else had "weak faith" is irrelevent to the question of the existence of gods.

What is wrong with needing evidence to believe in a god? You ask for evidence for everything else you believe, but not yhwh. Why? Why do you think yhwh wants us to believe without evidence? Why is blind faith demanded of us by your god? Of what use is that to a deity?

If you really had a strong faith and were a preacher, then you wouldn't be demanding proof, you would have seen the Spirit moving and that would be enough. If you never had the Holy Spirit witness to you, then your faith was never true, and what you're telling me is untrue. If you never saw the Holy Spirit acting through others, then your faith was never true, and you never received the Spirit of God. How could you be a preacher but miss the presence of the spirit or never even received it? That makes no sense what so ever.

If what you're telling me is true, you backslid on a weak faith, having no witness from the Spirit, nor did you ever truly commit yourself because you would have received the spirit. The horrible condition of the world I am speaking of is the lack of Gods love as expressed by the hearts and minds and spirits of mankind; the world follows after death, and has earned its reward.

again, you're coming off as a dick. But whatever. I don't enjoy being preached too, and let the record state that I've taken the blasphemy challenge so even if your god is real there is no hope for me.

Mark 3:28-29 (King James Version)28Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

I Emilie (last name hidden) deny the existence of the holy spirit.

Emilie, admit that you never were a preacher and that basically you are just lying to justify your beliefs. I saw in another thread that you admitted your house was stacked with objects of devil worship. I will pray for you Emilie. I'm sorry that you've come to the point where you feel you need to do the most unforgivable thing just to cut off your chances at Salvation..because you don't have the courage to face who and what you are. It's sad Emilie. It grieves my heart to see someone in such a state. God loves you and cares for you, and nothing, not even the most horrific thing you could do, will ever change that.

The horrible condition of the world I am speaking of is the lack of Gods love as expressed by the hearts and minds and spirits of mankind; the world follows after death, and has earned its reward.

Whenever people say crap like this I have to ask: Where is your control group? How do you know a bunch of god-loving people, all grouped in a monoculture of proper religiosity, would have a better world?

I'm guessing at some point they'd start killing each other over arguments about whether or not Jesus needed deodorant or something.

You live, we all live, in a world where too many people need to be right. And tothesea is an example of this. You read "Seek and ye shall find" and you went out and sought and you found something thing now you've got it exactly right and all of us who disagree with you, whether atheist or wrong wrong theist, is now an enemy.

On the bright side, it's normally not to bad being such an enemy. With you spending all your time trying to convince your imaginary god that you're worthy of his imaginary love, you don't really have the time to burn any of us at the stake. Either that or you fear being fined by the EPA for doing such things. I don't know which it is.

Blessed are those who hear Gods word and obey it. If everyone truly listened to God, and practiced in their lives what He taught them, then Heaven would dawn. And as I stated, I wasn't looking for God..He found me. I'm sorry but I don't fit your mold of people who seek God because they are sad and lonely or whatever desperation you think leads them to creating an illusion of His existence. However, I'm happy to inform you that not only is God very real, but you *will* be meeting Him someday soon.

Emilie, admit that you never were a preacher and that basically you are just lying to justify your beliefs. I saw in another thread that you admitted your house was stacked with objects of devil worship. I will pray for you Emilie. I'm sorry that you've come to the point where you feel you need to do the most unforgivable thing just to cut off your chances at Salvation..because you don't have the courage to face who and what you are. It's sad Emilie. It grieves my heart to see someone in such a state. God loves you and cares for you, and nothing, not even the most horrific thing you could do, will ever change that.

tothesea

Wow. Did you get this message from God, or did you make it up all by yourself? As others have said, your arrogance is thick here. You're not going to accomplish much of anything on this forum, I'm afraid.

Emilie, admit that you never were a preacher and that basically you are just lying to justify your beliefs.

No.

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I saw in another thread that you admitted your house was stacked with objects of devil worship.

Wrong, buddy. I don't worship the devil. I have images of demons, gargoyles, etc around my house because I think they are neat but I don't worship them.

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I will pray for you Emilie.

Do what you want to. You're not the only one to pray for me.

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I'm sorry that you've come to the point where you feel you need to do the most unforgivable thing just to cut off your chances at Salvation..

Don't be sorry for me.

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because you don't have the courage to face who and what you are.

Wrong, champ. I do have the courage. I face the world head on and take control of it.

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It's sad Emilie.

What's sad is someone who "once believed in science". Why the pretense in that part of your OP? Do you not believe in science anymore, even though science has significantly improved the world, far beyond what your god is capable of doing. Science gets results and gets jobs done. your god sits around on his all-mighty ass and does nothing.

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God loves you and cares for you

If god loves me then he'll have to take it up with my husband. FWIW: My husband benches 350 and can probably take god out.

Logged

"Great moments are born from great opportunities." Herb Brooks

I edit a lot of my posts. The reason being it to add content or to correct grammar/wording. All edits to remove wording get a strike through through the wording.

Well, I wasn't trying to convince anyone, and what you said actually ties into my point. It *is* a personal thing. Until God reveals Himself to you, you don't know Him and can't know Him.

Assuming there is a god and what you stated above is true... there is no way any of us can know god unless he reveals himself to us.

In other words, it's his fault I am an atheist because he doesn't feel like revealing himself to me. Well then... we atheists can't be blamed now, can we?

If you're not here to convince us and we can't know god unless he wants us to... then what the hell are you here for?

Nice way to paint yourself into a corner in less than 40 words.

Next!

I don't blame atheists for being atheists. Without direct knowledge of God, the mind cannot comprehend God at all. However, anyone can choose to know God, and if they do with sincerity, He will open the door. I was just someone who probably never would have done that, and God, for whatever reason, decided to do the work for me. I was locked into my unbelief and never would have stepped outside of it, but God deemed me worthy to know Him. Maybe I was an exception. I don't know. All I know is that He does exist, and if you seek Him you will find Him. I hope that you open your mind a bit and consider it.

I don't blame atheists for being atheists. Without direct knowledge of God, the mind cannot comprehend God at all. However, anyone can choose to know God, and if they do with sincerity, He will open the door. I was just someone who probably never would have done that, and God, for whatever reason, decided to do the work for me. I was locked into my unbelief and never would have stepped outside of it, but God deemed me worthy to know Him. Maybe I was an exception. I don't know. All I know is that He does exist, and if you seek Him you will find Him. I hope that you open your mind a bit and consider it.

Indeed, you shouldn't blame atheists - you should blame god. After all...

Until He comes to you personally, and lets you know, you don't know Him at all. You can't conceive of Him.....there is no way for any human mind to perceive God unless God decides to reveal Himself to that person, period. They will continue to believe whatever it is they believe until God decides, for whatever reason, that it's time. That time for many of you may never come.

So which is it? You said that we couldn't change our beliefs WITHOUT god's intervention, so exactly how DO we manage to change our beliefs enough to "seek" in the first place?