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notebene

They want to legalize criminal behavior, and yes, entering a country without permission or staying past your visa is illegal. It will lead to us gaining more criminals. Won’t that be a treat, when they also disarm us by legislating our 2nd Amendment rights away from us? We have immigration laws on the books…how about enforcing them and cleaning up the bureaucracy that made the process such a mess? I know why…criminal votes are always the cheapest..eh, Odumbo?!

physicsnut

Has anyone noticed that both AlterNet and Bloomberg are blabbering about FDR granting a Second Bill of Rights ? Fits right in their narrative about AMNESTY. You can tell how fishy it is – the bloomberg article is by Cass Sunstein. The whole propaganda machine is getting geared up
Krauthammer had some good points recently on c-span – especially about obamacare.

KenInMontana

He (FDR) pushed for a second “Bill of Rights” but it never really got past the wishful thinking stage. He proposed these as “rights” ( many will sound familiar );

“In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

Among these are:

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

The right of every family to a decent home;

The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

we already have most of those “rights”…..what they are saying are those thing should be GIVEN…..each of us does already have the right to own a home, we just have to PAY FOR IT to get it…….1984 indeed is already here, the people no longer know what words mean……..NONE of our rights makes anything FREE!

a farmer that doesnt work his fields and produces meager crops is entitled to some high wage?

that is communism folks = each gets according to their needs and each gives according to their ability = the lazy get rewarded for doing nothing and the hard workers get enslaved to pay for every bodies needs.

KenInMontana

Actually none of those items are “rights” under our laws, the Progressive/Socialists would like them to be and many of them believe them to be. But they would tend to be Socialist ideas rather than Communist due to the fact that there is monetary compensation involved.

I would put it this way, that we already have the liberty to achieve these things.

PatrickHenrysBody

Wishful thinking indeed. None of those things that FDR pushed for are guaranteed rights and none of them are specifically granted by the U.S. Constitution. I believe that was your point from the start.

KenInMontana

You are correct Sir.

crakpot

Promise us a fence under Reagan, shame on you.
Promise us a fence under Obama, shame on us.

shadetree56

the kraut is right – seal the border FIRST. You will now see libtards come out for open borders – something they have wanted for 50 years. No plan will work with a open border. P.S. – just talking about a plan will increase illegal border crossing 10 times over.

aposematic

I get you, I think; but not to be confused by “wanted”: Something the open border libtards have “achieved and maintained” for over 50 years.

E. Lee Zimmerman

Maybe Charles is rediscovering his roots.

Rshill7

Hence the lack of grey hair. He’s been using Grecian Formula in a harmless way. Congress has been following the Grecian formula for decades. We’ve got a lot on our ‘plato’ but nothing appears palatable.

“Dictatorship naturally arises out of democracy, and the most aggravated form of tyranny and slavery out of the most extreme liberty.” (Plato)

ILLEGALS ARE A CRIME PROBLEM – “Overall, in FY 2012 ICE’s Office of Enforcement and Removal Operations removed 409,849 individuals. Of these, approximately 55 percent, or 225,390 of the people removed, were convicted of felonies or misdemeanors – almost double the removal of criminals in FY 2008. This includes 1,215 aliens convicted of homicide; 5,557 aliens convicted of sexual offenses; 40,448 aliens convicted for crimes involving drugs; and 36,166 aliens convicted for driving under the influence.”http://thevirtuousrepublic.com/2013/01/27/ice-numbers-shows-that-with-illegal-immigration-comes-crime/

They don’t respect our laws enough to apply, learn principles of citizenship – so it’s not surprising they become criminals.

Reason # 12,000,000 not to grant amnesty to illegals – It would mean instant Islamization of the US – proliferate ghettos across the US where Sharia hell reigns, terrorist acts are planned and executed and rapes are epidemic.

Legal immigrant is checked by our DOCTORS…..illegals had brought many sicknesses we thought were gone forever….nobody talks about that anymore.
Later, quietly, all requirements will be removed, like work requirement was removed from Welfare “reform”.
Southern border is still wide open – for an “economic migrant” and for a terrorist…..
When Reagan Ok’d amnesty, EVERYBODY in Congress said it is ONLY THIS TIME, WE WILL NOT DO IT AGAIN.
Regardless of the name (“path”, “removing from the shadows”) it is ANOTHER amnesty.

Border security really is the key, which is why I don’t think this is going anywhere. Liberals want totally open borders, so they will not support any legislation that has firm border controls. If closed border measures are watered down so much that they are meaningless, then conservatives will not support the bill. So unless there is tight border control in this new bill, there is no incentive for conservatives to go for it. And if the RINO Republicans think that they will win over lots of hispanic votes just by voting for this, dream on. It didn’t work for Reagan, so it won’t work for us now.

The 3 second snippet of Biden at the end made me completely forget every thing else. That was high-larious!

Sandra123456

If I were a naturalized citizen I would be angry about this. Follow all the rules, take all the tests, wait years, do everything legally right while squatters get instant citizenship? Not fair.

If we have to make one more law we should not make anyone born here an automatic citizen.

Enforce the laws we have. Shutdown the borders.

Amy

I would support a green card for those who are here now who hold a job and are self sufficient. Give them a valid work visa rather than citizenship. For those who are not self sufficient, back to your home country. Period. That alone would cut down a huge number of people. By self sufficient, I mean working, paying your own bills and not using social services (other than schools) for meeting any day to day needs. No welfare, no section 8 housing, no medicare/aid, no food stamps.

Orangeone

Amy, they are not paying income taxes so they don’t pay for the roads, bridges, schools, law enforcement, court system, or for the millions already in our prisons. To say it is okay to violate immigration law, it can be argued that they can violate all laws (murder, rape, incest, child molestation) without consequence because when you enforce some and not others, it is arbitrary and capricious. What other laws are you okay with them violating with the gov’t’s permission?

Amy

No offense, but I don’t need a lecture on what they are/aren’t paying for. I’m well read and very well informed. I stated what I would find acceptable and NEVER did I say it was okay for them to murder and/or rape. Arguing to extremes is a liberal way of arguing.

Nukeman60

Okay, don’t use the extremes. What other laws are okay to break, then? Laws are laws. Enforce them or get rid of them. Seems simple enough. Or are some laws okay for certain people only and not for others? I know there are laws on the books that illegal aliens break every day that I would go to jail for. And I help pay for their subsistence.

Amy

Well, if you want me to be specific, then it would have to be okay that they’ve been using a fake SSN/ID because most of them do that already. The issue is there is a human face on this. There are people here now that are here just to make a living. They were unable to do that in their home country and they paid dearly to get across our borders in order to provide for their families. There are families here who pay taxes in (via fake SSN), who pay sales taxes, who buy & consume and who aren’t ‘troublemakers’. I don’t support giving them citizenship – I don’t even support putting then on a path to citizenship. I do support giving them a green card and letting them work here legally – IF they have been self sufficient. A large majority of them, however, have not demonstrated that ability and should get the boot to their home country. This is an option I find acceptable. NEVER in any of my posts have I said that we should continue to let the deadbeats stay here, let those who have criminal records stay here OR that we should extend any of our social services to them.

It’s a happy medium between what the no boarders, liberal wants and what the GOP seems ready to give away. It gives legal remedy to a very, very large issue without giving in and granting citizenship.

Nukeman60

Yeah, but that is exactly what the Reagan deal proposed. Did it accomplish anything? I feel we need to secure the border – really, truly secure it. Then and only then should we discuss what we do with the lawbreakers already here.

‘There are people here now that are here just to make a living.’ – Amy

Not to be argumentative, but that is just exactly what a bank robber says. There has to be consequences for illegal actions. I think you have some good ideas here. Perhaps, we can work out a graduated scale for the least to most heineous offenders, but consequences are necessary to stop the actions and the border must be secure, above all.

If you don’t discipline your children for breaking any rules, they never stop breaking the rules.

oregonproud

Sorry Nukeman60. Just like yesterday, trying to use logic with this libtard twit is simply a exercise in futility.

Amy

I also have never said we shouldn’t secure the border – in fact, I have in several posts said I want a wall, with a mote and alligators. However, we haven’t had an administration yet that has decided to take our borders seriously and as a result we have a very real, very large issue that is costing us very real, very large dollars.

I come at this discussion from a very different perspective because I know (several) anchor babies whose parents may or may not have come here legally. Those parents & their children are solid, church going, working people who don’t have criminal records and who came here because they needed to make a living & provide for their families. They’ve done so without robbing banks or selling drugs or running guns or being involved in a gang. There’s a human aspect to it that I cannot ignore.

Nukeman60

Try getting your panties out of that wad they’re in. You’re way too defensive when someone brings up a point. You’re looking at it too emotionally, then, and not realistically as to how to solve the real problem.

It wasn’t my fault either that they came here, were born here of illegals, or want to take what this country has to offer for it’s citizens. But I still have to pay for it – that’s my human aspect, as well.

Amy

My panties aren’t in a wad – thanks???… I was simply explaining to you that I come at it from a different angle. Also wasn’t blaming you or asking that you pay for anything. As I said in my first post, if you aren’t self sufficient, than goodbye.

I’m stepping out of the convo here for awhile. I’ve always found this site to be alright to post on – even with somewhat different opinions. I’ve come off as something I’m not – especially since OregonProud has referred to me as a liberal twit…???

Nukeman60

Well, I certainly never called you anything like that. I merely am discussing the issues that arise from this problem we have with illegals here in this country. Your opinion is certainly one that you are entitled to. My first line was just about the fact you apear to be defensive every time someone commented to you. If I was wrong about that, then so be it.

Sorry, the thread ran out, so I hope you see this. Illegal aliens are those that came here illegally, hence they are illegals. I prefer to reserve the term ‘immigrant’ for the legals who immigrate legally. They earned and deserve that title.

Amy

I’ll cop to being defensive when lectured about the extremes especially since I thought I had laid out the very narrow scope I would support. Since 学中文的美国男人 seems to be assuming I support this stupid bill & Oregonproud thinks I’m a liberal twit – I obviously didn’t lay it out as clearly as I thought.

I, like you & others, am completely tired of paying for those who don’t feel the need to contribute. This bill doesn’t do squat to combat that – it’s simply pandering. I don’t support this bill, I don’t support citizenship – not even for those I know personally. They should never be granted the priviledges that come with being an American citizen. I could support granting them work visa’s to continue working here. Those work visa’s would come with all the baggage & necessities that work visa’s come with. Meaning, you go back to your home country every so often and if you don’t have a job you don’t stay.

Nukeman60

My apologies for posting here, Amy. It appears we’ve reached the 11 post limit of Disqus in a thread.

‘I, like you & others, am…’

Very well stated. One more thing that people have to add into this mix is Obama’s part in this bill:

Obama’s approach will indeed cause us to end up just like Reagan’s deal. Here we go again. No deals will work at all until that border is secure, and Obama does not want it secure. There are way too many votes there.

Amy

Totally agree with you. I think both sides are pandering for votes with the immigration issue. I see where Rush is impressed with Rubio – which causes me to sigh in frustration…

Illegal aliens are those that came here illegally, and since we are talking about immigration, I use the term ‘illegals’. If you don’t know that we are talking about immigration, then I wonder how you found your way to this thread.

I prefer to reserve the term ‘immigrant’ for the people who immigrate here legally. They earned and deserve that title.

You, however, can call them anything you want to – ‘undocumented worker’, ‘illegal immigrant’, ‘strain on the entitlement programs’, or ‘the new base of the Democratic Party’, doesn’t matter to me.

Plus enforcing laws is why we need to pass this bill. It will strengthen border security.

Amy

No it won’t, just like it didn’t in 1987. I don’t, in fact, think this bill is a good idea. Just so you understand completely – if you are here illegally, you should NEVER be granted citizenship. Period. If you can prove you haven’t been a drain on our taxes and are self sufficient, I support a work visa and only a work visa. I DO NOT support this crock of a bill. This is simply the GOP pandering for votes.

Nukeman60

No, no it won’t.

Orangeone

No offense to you, but this is not liberal arguing, it is pointing out the truth. If you ignore one set of laws, all laws will be set aside. And frankly, I’m sick of having my taxes increased at the federal and state levels to pay for illegal and those that think paying for anything for them is okay. The ones that want them supported should pay 100% of the costs.

Amy

If you reread my post instead of lecturing me about extreme and positions I don’t hold, you will see that I said I supported a work visa for those that are self sufficient. That there should be no social services involved in their being here or staying here. That they should have no path to citizenship. Even for those I know personally who I suspect are not legal. You are trying to assign the extreme case to what I stated – even though I clearly said there was narrow definition of those who should be granted a WORK VISA. No where in my post did I say we as tax payers should be supporting them. In fact, I said the opposite. The fact is, if there weren’t social services available and they were required to abide by work visa laws, most would traverse back to where they came from. Especially if we start deporting the ones sitting in jail cells & section 8 housing. It would be a much smaller group of people who do not benefit one politician or the other with their votes.

Orangeone

And you would prefer illegals remain and take the jobs our 23 million LEGAL Americans should get and keep those on unlimited unemployment? Reward illegals rather than those who have applied and spent thousands to enter our country legally? Not a chance. We need to round them up and deport them.

Amy

Cool – proceed with what you feel is the best viable option. I threw an idea out there in limited scope that I could support rather than this stupid amnesty bill. You don’t like it and that’s fine.

Orangeone

No offense, but this is not liberal arguing, it is pointing out the truth. If you ignore one set of laws, all laws will be set aside. And frankly, I’m sick of having my taxes increased at the federal and state levels to pay for illegal and those that think paying for anything for them is okay. The ones that want them supported should pay 100% of the costs.

I think the point Amy was getting at is that we can give work permits to those who are self-sufficient. That way, they help America by contributing to the economy and paying taxes. You say you want them to pay taxes, but they can’t pay income taxes if they don’t have the work permits required that Amy wants to give to those who are self-sufficient and not costing the government in welfare. They do, however, pay sales tax. (In fact, that is as good an argument as anything to get rid of the income tax and replace it with a sales tax.)

Orangeone

I understand what Amy is saying. With all respect to her and to you, I DO NOT support rewarding people for committing illegal acts. Illegals will continue to work for cash and not pay income taxes because it is financially beneficial. America went through this “experiment” in 1986 and it backfired in our faces the way the generation before us said that it would. Once “legalized”, all 20 million are entitled to receive federal income tax credits without ever paying a cent in tax and those credits (dollars) are paid for each relative in Mexico, including aunts, uncles and cousins. And that money leaves our country and goes to Mexico, and in the case of MN, also to Somalia to fund terrorists.

Sales tax is minimal compared to federal and state income taxes and some states don’t even have a sales tax. Sales tax is very, very minimal compared to federal and state income taxes. Heaven help you if an illegal driving an automobile hits your car, you will pay 100% because they buy cars for cash (no sales tax is paid), titles are not changed and no insurance is purchased.

So let’s think about education. The illegals are in our schools but don’t pay to build or maintain them. When the classes are full, the taxpayers have even more of their income taken by the gov’t to pay to build and maintain more schools. So what about colleges. There are only so many seats available at college and the illegals are not paying to build or maintain those either. Tuition covers a small portion of the cost, the taxpayers subsidize the remainder. When the college hits the maximum of admissions and your children are denied because the college is full, then what?

Lastly, the people in CA are likely outraged about this: 95% of outstanding homocide warrants in CA are for illegals http://www.cis.org/articles/20…
CA residents are already one of the highest taxed states, many cities have filed bankruptcy and working taxpayers are leaving as fast as they can.

Orangeone

I understand what Amy is saying. With all respect to her and to you, I DO NOT support rewarding people for committing illegal acts. Illegals will continue to work for cash and not pay income taxes because it is financially beneficial. America went through this “experiment” in 1986 and it backfired in our faces the way the generation before us said that it would. Once “legalized”, all 20 million are entitled to receive federal income tax credits without ever paying a cent in tax and those credits (dollars) are paid for each relative in Mexico, including aunts, uncles and cousins. And that money leaves our country and goes to Mexico, and in the case of MN, also to Somalia to fund terrorists.
Sales tax is minimal compared to federal and state income taxes and some states don’t even have a sales tax. Sales tax is very, very minimal compared to federal and state income taxes. Heaven help you if an illegal driving an automobile hits your car, you will pay 100% because they buy cars for cash (no sales tax is paid), titles are not changed and no insurance is purchased.
So let’s think about education. The illegals are in our schools but don’t pay to build or maintain them. When the classes are full, the taxpayers have even more of their income taken by the gov’t to pay to build and maintain more schools. So what about colleges. There are only so many seats available at college and the illegals are not paying to build or maintain those either. Tuition covers a small portion of the cost, the taxpayers subsidize the remainder. When the college hits the maximum of admissions and your children are denied because the college is full, then what?
Lastly, the people in CA are likely outraged about this: 95% of outstanding homocide warrants in CA are for illegals http://www.cis.org/articles/20… CA residents are already one of the highest taxed states, many cities have filed bankruptcy and working taxpayers are leaving as fast as they can.

aposematic

I hate to have to repeat myself but apparently it is sorely needed: Two things: 1] No talk of immigration reform until the local legal citizens, not Government, living on the US borders 98% or better confirm the US borders secure. 2] Reform of current immigration laws that are not enforced to begin with is simply inane…enforce the Law. Doing the same thing over and over again pretending to expect different results means the immigration reformers are liars and their supporters are insane liars.

…and a pretext to get over 50 (yes, 50, not 11) MILLION new DNC voters

williamm

Anyone thinking the illegals will be paying taxes is ignorant. With an income of 30,000 dollars, married filing jointly with 3 children, their tax liability is zero. It’s possible they will be eligible after this legislation for Earned Income Tax Credit.

To qualify for Earned Income Tax Credit or EITC, you and your spouse if married and filing a joint return, must meet all of the following rules:

Have a valid Social Security Number
Have earned income from employment, self-employment or another source
Cannot use the married, filing separate filing status
Must be a U.S. citizen or resident alien all year or a nonresident alien married to a U.S. citizen or resident alien and choose to file a joint return and be treated as a resident alien

Nukeman60

Yep, this is exactly what they did to Reagan – get the legalization first and then blow off securing the border. When Reagan used good faith on this issue, it caused the illegal alien numbers to skyrocket. Today, with 11 million here already, the numbers will skyrocket high enough to ensure all future elections are secure for the Dems (but no security on the border, of course).

Even though Reagan said his action was a mistake, the left still come back continuously to say, “Hey, even Reagan wanted to legalize the undocumented workers”. They love to skew every issue.

c4pfan

I’ve had it with the Hugh Hewitt types making it seem like they are martyrs and we are the ones in the wrong. Then top it off that they are better than those already born here, because they chose to come here.

ASIA FOR THE ASIANS, AFRICA FOR THE AFRICANS, WHITE COUNTRIES FOR EVERYBODY!

Everybody says there is this RACE problem. Everybody says this RACE problem will be solved when the third world pours into EVERY white country and ONLY into white countries.

The Netherlands and Belgium are just as crowded as Japan or Taiwan, but nobody says Japan or Taiwan will solve this RACE problem by bringing in millions of third worlders and quote assimilating unquote with them.

Everybody says the final solution to this RACE problem is for EVERY white country and ONLY white countries to “assimilate,” i.e., intermarry, with all those non-whites.

What if I said there was this RACE problem and this RACE problem would be solved only if hundreds of millions of non-blacks were brought into EVERY black country and ONLY into black countries?

How long would it take anyone to realize I’m not talking about a RACE problem. I am talking about the final solution to the BLACK problem?

And how long would it take any sane black man to notice this and what kind of psycho black man wouldn’t object to this?

But if I tell that obvious truth about the ongoing program of genocide against my race, the white race, Liberals and respectable conservatives agree that I am a naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews.

The cheapest and quickest way to get rid of illegal invasion problem and solve the job problem in two steps
1. Put a bounty on their heads and pay returning vets to hunt them down.
2. Stop benefits, anchor babies, etc.
3. Check citizenship at all points of entry, plus require job, college and driver license applicants to present birth certificate.

Apparently it takes 10 years to become a citizen if you qualify based on the standards. There’s nothing “instant” about it. Some of the most principled conservative leaders like Marco Rubio are behind the bill.

wallwatchman

But all they will be missing in those ten years are the papers. They get to stay here while they wait, work, get assistance, etc., while those who didn’t come illegally have to wait in the country their trying to get away from. The illegal ones get all the benefits of being legal, so they won’t care if all they’re missing is the green card. So yes, it pretty much is instant. Just ask the ones still waiting it out in a nasty country.

Freedomswatch

Charlie boy is dead right on this. Now if only the nimwits (Grahmnesty et al) would open their eyes and see what amnesty would do to America. I guess it’s hard to see the truth when you’re suffering from rectal-cranial inversion.

sDee

damn – this man exemplifies the immigrants who made America a great Nation.

Any attempt to make illegals “legal” to stay but not citizens will go straight to court and BOOM they will become legal.

Big mistake, but I think that Sen. Rubio knows this and is actually playing a game with the Dems.

By the way – love the ending with Biden…. Hahaha.

white531

The Kraut speaks the truth on this one. Rubio’s plan gives immediate freedom to 11 million people who came here illegally. Instantly! Based on the promise from Obama,(you can trust him, right?) that he will enforce the protection of the borders, at some later date, to be decided in the future.

I never cease to be amazed at how stupid Republicans really are. It is the only thing I share with Obama.

PatrickHenrysBody

You give the first few 30 million amnesty, others will follow…and they did. Now we’re at the second 30 million (11 million my foot) and more amnesty. Then will come another 30 million and then another 30 million, and so on. Why even have immigration laws? Illegal immigrants don’t pay income tax, so they do not contribute to the protection, support, and maintenance of our country. They may help maintain our roads when they buy gas at the pump, but that’s not because they have a choice. They enjoy the benefits of our support system (entitlements). They do a very good job of causing some of the degradation, disrepair, and destruction that our country suffers. If we keep on enabling criminal behavior, illegal immigration will go on and on and on. Our support systems are already overloaded because of illegal immigration and the entitlement crowd. Some of those illegals who are in our country espouse the beliefs of those who think the U.S. stole their land and that they are reconquering the land their enemy (the evil U.S. and white European IMMIGRANTS) wantonly wrested from them and taking back what is rightfully theirs. It’s utter nonsense, but that’s what they’ve been conditioned and brainwashed to believe. Some of those illegals are violent, murderous thugs who do nothing but cause misery and death. Many of them simply flee the country to avoid capture and arrest, leaving behind a trail of shattered lives. The overloading of our system is being done on purpose by the global authoritarians to help hasten the overall destruction of the U.S.A. If there are those who don’t believe that to be the case, go to the beach. There’s plenty of sand there to bury your heads.

kong1967

Everything liberals do is laced with deception. Close the borders first, then legalize. Never mind that once the bill is signed that the illegals are immediately legalized. Crooked bastard Democrats. Honesty. Find some instead of being the biggest freaking liars on the planet.