Posted
by
samzenpuson Monday June 23, 2014 @05:47PM
from the try-ours-instead dept.

mpicpp writes with news about a new Microsoft trade-in program to encourage sales of the new Surface Pro 3. Microsoft is offering a limited time Surface Pro 3 promotion via which users can get up to $650 in store credit for trading in certain Apple MacBook Air models. The new promotion, running June 20 to July 31, 2014 -- "or while supplies last" -- requires users to bring MacBook Airs into select Microsoft retail stores in the U.S., Puerto Rico and Canada. (The trade-in isn't valid online.)...To get the maximum ($650) value, users have to apply the store credit toward the purchase of a Surface Pro 3, the most recent model of the company's Intel-based Surface tablets.

The MBA and MBP are both fine machines. My wife get's a computer that works most of the time. I get a computer with a bash shell on which I can do my thing. Neither have shown any tendency to falls apart, unlike every Asus, Lenovo, Toshiba and HP we've had.

The MBA and MBP are both fine machines. My wife get's a computer that works most of the time. I get a computer with a bash shell on which I can do my thing. Neither have shown any tendency to falls apart, unlike every Asus, Lenovo, Toshiba and HP we've had.

Absolutely,
And you have to give up the smooth and functional OSX interface for the freaked out Metro disaster, and the unintuitive controls.

So the magic mouse swipe gestures aren't obvious to people used to regular mice, I was very resistant, but I now love and miss them.

But I otherwise agree, I don't find anything about OSX to be "intuitive" to people used to using windows or linux. OSX is a fine windowing system, but it's a little rough around the hedges when it comes to usability for the portion of the world that simply cannot become Apple converts.

Hardware wise though, I have not found anything that comes close to an MBP. Windows or OSX, it beats the unholy snot out of its competition.

But its unix underneath, the 2560x1600 resolution is excellent. The keyboard is acceptable.I can type into bash shells as if it were Linux. I can ssh and scp as if it were linux. I can write and compile code on it as if it were linux.The python Point of Sale front end that I wrote for my wife's store, that runs on Linux, also ran first time on the macbook.

My current job uses OSX, and it was the first time I had ever used it after a long history of unix and some windows. I found it very easy to pick up. The touch pad stuff when I use it is great, and easy to learn (the configuration settings came with little videos of what the various settings did which made it easy to pick up). Though I usually use a normal mouse rather than use it as a laptop. But there is nothing in OSX day-to-day that is that unusual to a long time X windows or Windows user, except ma

My Asus machines have out lasted my ownership and the second owners are still using them.... Since when does everything fall apart because it's not apple? Lol
Next time look at the Apple desks at the Apple store and realize that most of those people are receiving support or repairs. It's like that with every company...
IMO Metro isn't horrible on a touch screen, I like the live tiles...

The thing that looks right about the construction of the current Mac books is that the monolithic aluminium case doesn't have any flappy bits to fall off. Why other manufacturers do not do something similar is beyond me.

I forgot to mention a Sony laptop. That also failed. The bottom panel came off, the disk failed and the CD drive failed. So I can't install linux on it because the CD isn't working and it won't boot linux from a flash drive, presumably because of something stupid Sony did. So it's dead and I

Inspirion 1720 is going strong after 7 years of non stop usage and it runs flawlessly with Linux Mint 14/Mate. Only thing I replaced was to put in a SSD and I spilt a full glass of beer on the KB which eventually need to be replaced. So does that make Dell's as good as your Mac's?

My experience is that sub-1k laptops are crap no matter who assembles them. I've got a similar story to GP - bought an Inspiron 1520 back in 2007 and it's still going strong. I replaced the harddrive with an SSD and it's now my primary work machine that I carry to the office and on travel.

What he means, I think, is that most computer companies make "consumer grade" machines and "commercial grade" machines. I've not has an Asus or Lenovo, but I've had Toshiba, HP, and Dell. With respect to Dell, I've had both consumer and commercial grade machines, built to higher specifications. Most recently I purchased a Dell Latitude 5000 series laptop--in Dell's explanation of this computer in comparison to the 7000 series, it gave the 5000 series a build quality of 3 out of 4 stars, it gave the 3000 series 2 out of 4 stars (still Latitude--which implies the consumer grade stuff is 1 out of 4 stars for build quality). The consumer grade machines seem to be designed to last about 2 years or less. The commercial grade machines are designed to last more like 4 years.

The problem is, you have to pay a premium for the commercial grade machines.

With Apple, there is no "consumer grade" and "commercial grade"--they're all made to high specifications.

"What he means, I think, is that most computer companies make "consumer grade" machines and "commercial grade" machines. I've not has an Asus or Lenovo, but I've had Toshiba, HP, and Dell. With respect to Dell, I've had both consumer and commercial grade machines, built to higher specifications."

i have owned and used packard bell, HP, dell, compaq(before hp bought em), and a lenovo. the first computer i bought with my own income was a packardbell 80486 dx2 75mhz. that was built like a tank, and was about as

Having had a similar range of computers, I've had the same experience. Nothing is built like a Mac. Opening the case of a Mac Pro is like entering a little computerized cathedral.

But you won't ever convince people who have never owned a Mac. Or used one once, or still think they use one button mice. They think the foibles of the race to the bottom culture of Windows machines is just what computers do.

Want me to make a list of all the consumer-grade non-Apple equipment that still work perfectly after years of use and punctuate it with the litany of Apple products that I've seen die or otherwise malfunction over a short span of time?

Would that fall under anecdote or data in your mind?

But who cares? Only an idiot would try to generalize from your tiny sample size.

The funny thing is, MBA's even early models are still worth a pretty dime second hand (usually 50-80% of purchase price based on condition and age), Surface Pro's won't fetch more than 1/3 of their purchase price.

What this tells me is that Microsoft has given up trying to promote the Surface as a tablet. It's a laptop that happens to have a detachable keyboard. Note that they didn't even try to offer a trade-in of ipads for the surface, which would be a more reasonable comparison if the surface was successful as a tablet. The ipad is a different use case, and Microsoft just doesn't play well in that space.

... saleable machine. Rather than dumping their excess, in public view of shareholders, they are now even more willing to take a more substantial loss, so long as they can still claim X millions of units sold . Better than tossing them like with the Surface RT. Shareholders will likely complain if they try that one again.

Yeah, Microsoft is now going for portable business integration. You can manage them with Active Directory - I just added one.

We are looking to go more portable at work but we don't want to have a laptop and a tablet for every user. Picked up one of the new Surface 3 devices and while it looks like it will integrate nicely for our day-to-day use at work, I don't like it enough to have one at home for personal use. It's actually got some well thought out ideas in the device.

Given that an iPad can cost $1k now (256GB storage, same as this Surface Pro 3 I'm testing) It's not too far-fetched in price in my opinion, seeing as you can do more with it and aren't constrained to the App or Play store. Doesn't mean I'd buy one for personal use, though. Once the docks are released I can see potential for it replacing some of our old workstations.

Note that they didn't even try to offer a trade-in of ipads for the surface, which would be a more reasonable comparison if the surface was successful as a tablet

if they tried to pull THAT, they would have a crapton of people with older ipads trading them in. They'd be buried alive. A lot of iPad2's are out of warranty, and that's about the time schools and others consider an upgrade.

They're MS... they're big, and could take the hit, but it definitely would sting.

> and MS isn't offering as much as the machines could get you on craigslist.

I did not know that, not being an Apple user (except for a couple G4s for Adobe products back in the day). Microsoft is so screwed.

> Trade-ins for the competition's gear are a "try to pull people off the fence onto your side" maneuver, but the problem is it's only going to attract people that have already decided they didn't like their new mac, so it won't really serve its intended purpose.

*especially* since, the Apple consumer is not your average consumer. Apple consumers love Apple products because (at least in part) they are Apple products. Microsoft isn't going to deter too many people from that mindset.

Another really huge part is that Apple at least so far has not tried to foist a tub of crap like Windows 8 on their customers, and had their shills call them stupid when they didn't like it. Even Mavericks, which had some birthing pains - at least people could use it coompetently from day one, and it's ended up being great.

They've pretty much always pushed the whole detachable keyboard and ability to do real work, for the Surface Pro. That right there shows what the goal of the Surface Pro was. That isn't to say they didn't want to see the Surface RT to take off, but the Pro was pretty much always a flexible laptop replacement

I don't think will go much. You're assuming that someone values their $1000+ dollar MacBook Air at $650 and values the Surface at something worth the discount. Considering the amount of work you'd have to do to migrate (either Windows to Mac, or Mac to Windows) you have to think about 200-300 realistically for swapping costs. Makes good headlines (as we see here) but won't help much.

Wait, Apple's come with a perpetual Office subscription and Adobe's CC application? Damn, that is a good deal. Unless, of course, you mean Apple's free knock-offs of Office and Adobe's photo group, in which case the only advantage is that they're bundled instead of having to download one of the half-dozen free alternatives available for Windows.

You could install Linux on earlier versions of the surface. That might make a reasonably decent machine, assuming bluetooth could be made to work with it. Do you know if you can still install Linux on the new ones?

Considering the amount of work you'd have to do to migrate (either Windows to Mac, or Mac to Windows) you have to think about 200-300 realistically for swapping costs. Makes good headlines (as we see here) but won't help much.

I suspect they are targeting Mac users who have never seen the Metro interface, or whatever they are calling it these days. W8 got my wife to stop using her computer until I installed Mint on it.

I'm a programmer. I've written GUI code, I've written a device driver that shipped in a commercial UNIX kernel. I've used Windows since 3.1 days (WindowsForWorkgroupsForTheWin!). I've even debugged and configured Windows Vista in Chinese even though I can't read it - I was able to get someone to translate the occasional dialog box.

I can not understand Win8. When my sister asks me to help configure something on her Win8 laptop, I struggle with the UI as if I'm some rookie coming from some stoneage tribe.

Oh good. I am not alone. I've seen some of the most arcane interfaces on this planet, some of them not seen by more than a handful of people altogether, so arcane and mysterious that its name shall not be spoken. GUIs that made you beg for a CLI, for you knew that even if you had to memorize all the commands and had no -? to aid you, it could not possibly take more than a fraction of the time you'd need to get behind the twisted logic of the GUI in front of you. I cursed them, but I mastered them all, in little time.

Metro is a mystery. It simply has no rhyme or reason to it. It fucking makes no sense AT ALL. No matter what you want to do, applying sense and logic is the wrong way to do something. Usually you find your way around by pondering "Now, what would be the LEAST intuitive way to do something?", and usually you shall be rewarded with a solution.

If you offered me the choice "Metro or..." my answer, before you are done with the sentence, is "the other one". Even if you end in "or a stone tablet".

I can not understand Win8. When my sister asks me to help configure something on her Win8 laptop, I struggle with the UI as if I'm some rookie coming from some stoneage tribe.

I hate hate hate hate Windows 8.

When the simplest functions require you to go to the internet to find out how to do them. My virgin W8 experience wasdoing a websearch on how to shutdown, and there were lots of hits. If we have problems trying to figure how to shut the computer down, there is something drastically wrong.

Already I have told all the groups I support now that I will not support W8. They go MetroSexual, and they have to get new free help.

This is so true. And the feedback has been like this and has been so consistent for so long... I can't understand why Microsoft hasn't already reversed course on some of this madness. I mean, are they TRYING to give Apple market share? Because it's working. I still use a PC desktop much of the time, but my new laptop is a Mac, and I really like it. I never thought I would go Mac. And when Yosemite comes out this fall, it will integrate more fully with my phone and my tablet. Now, when it comes time f

Windows 8 takes everything you thought you knew about Windows, kills it, rapes it, buries it, digs it up, rapes it again, sets it on fire, and props up the corpse with rusty coat-hangers in the form of a rude gesture.

Strangely, I still love my Surface Pro, but it is despite Windows 8, not because of it. I think for a certain niche it's a sensible machine, but admittedly that niche is awfully narrow.

That's not supplies of Surface Pro 3 which is likely infinite for all intents and purposes, but supplies of "goodwill" from the "benevolent corporate ruler" Microsoft. After all, it takes goodwill to buy a competitor's product - even if it is at a significant discount and even if it is only for credits towards purchase of your own product.

Look at it this way. Now that they've found the Atari 2600 ET cartridges in a New Mexico landfill, there's plenty of room for all the Surfaces (all variants) that Microsoft can't sell.

It's amusing watching the mighty Redmond Emperor with his clothes off; a whole product line and who knows how much R&D and marketing cash dumped into it, that almost no one actually fucking wants. It's so bad that they can't even get their OEM network to build the fucking things and they have to put them under their own br

Man. What idiot marketing shill came up with that harebrained scheme? Talk about corporate desperation. So we'll trade in a perfectly good MBA for half what it's worth in credit toward a glorified tablet that M$ can't seem to give away [bloomberg.com]? (yes, I know that's last year's news but no reason to believe anything will change with version 3 IMHO). No thanks. I'm not really a huge fan of the MBA either, but this is ridiculous.

A local store had a "guess the product and win it" competition. They do this from time to time, with various promotions they get. It's a bit of an event every time and usually people flock to the store to stare at the blown up pics that hang out everywhere to guess the product. I sometimes go there for the kick to see what's going on and whether I can find out what it is, sometimes it's quite tricky. They usually take a pic of a corner that could be anything (ever t

Seriously. I love the MacBook Air I got a couple of years ago. The thing works very well, and even runs the occasional VMWare Fusion image of Windows 7 I need to run occasionally off of a portable thunderbolt drive. On a whim I got one of the earlier Surface tablets when the wife and I were in Vegas and they had a Kiosk where they were practically giving them away - but for the life of me still cannot use it for anything truly productive.

Trade in a MacBook Air for a surface?! Sorry Microsoft. You've been a day late and a dollar short ever since Ballmer pissed on the idea of tablets and smartphones and Apple smoked you and ate you for breakfast. Apple would have to skullf**k a small, disabled child onstage during their next keynote to even _think_ of falling behind enough for you to catch up to relevancy.

Microsoft - As long as I can virtualize your OS, take a snapshot and rollback when your OS takes a dive and run it all on a machine that, you know, _works_ I won't buy another piece of hardware branded by you. Ever.

And as another poster mentioned, "While supplies last." Really? Wow, even with Steve "Developers Developers Developers" Ballmer gone, you _still_ have a great sense of humor.

Gosh, why not? I can see someone looking at their MBA saying, "It works perfectly, has a great OS, awesome battery life, and does everything I could ask for and does it fast. I need to dump this for a barely functional device with an actively antagonistic OS sold by a company unable to secure a wet paper bag or make software that works acceptably. All this for far less battery life and far more money. I wish I had 2 MBAs to trade in!",

Back to the real world....

Did I mention that the day after the S3's release I was at a press event on a bus full of journalists. Anand has his S3 and in less than 24 hours it broke. The entire bus full of tech journos all concluded it was better that way.

That said, some people do like it. Microsoft traded in an absolute monopoly lock on the desktop to cater to 10% of their base. Clever that MS management, clever.

I stand outside the MS store with a sign: "I'll pay $660 for the first working 2012 or later MBA 13 4/256" They get their cash, I get a very nice MBA for a song, and if the Surface3 is all that they'll still head into the store and buy it.
MS store managers can't legally use a taser, right?

I currently have a Surface Pro2 with Ubuntu running. It is my first non-Apple computer in more than 10 years. Which I bought reluctantly when my previous MacBook died and did not like any of the current out-dated models.

For the most part, everything in Ubuntu runs great on the Surface Pro2, except Wi-Fi which is flaky due to sucky proprietary Marvell drivers.

In any case, it is now my primary work computer, and I am very happy with it, although I do really like the newer Surface Pro3 with larger screen and

The non-RT surface was never a tablet competitor.Virtually all the software people run on x86 is primarily designed for desktop use, and the gap between it and tablet universe's UI and software base progress is widening, not shrinking.

Apple killed them for two reasons - Apple understood the fundamental difference between how consumers use tablets and computers and catered to each market appropriately (rather than a half-assed worst-of-both-worlds one-size-fits-all attempt at both)... and (with the relativel

I think the explanation is obvious: Microsoft employees want those nice shiny MBAs, but because they don't have the money anymore, they want to barter for them with those SPs lying in their warehouses.;-)

I switched to Macs maybe eight years ago or so, largely because of my wife: she's an astronomer and the observatory that she's at uses linux as their core with Macs as their workstations. I definitely agree with your colleague, I've found that Windows under Parallels is extremely stable, more stable than I've experienced on dedicated hardware, and I would imagine more so if you were running it under Bootcamp, which I haven't done yet.

I have two complaints about Parallels. First, they don't support fooli

If Microsoft wants any uptake on promotions like this, Microsoft needs to get more aggressive about opening retail stores. The closest Microsoft Store is 112 miles away from where I live according to Bing Maps. But then Apple isn't a lot better, with a 90 mile drive to its nearest corporate retail store (as opposed to a local franchised dealer in town).

If Microsoft wants any uptake on these promotions it needs to find religion and begin praying for a miracle, because the group of people you can almost guarantee are the least likely to switch to Microsoft products are Apple owners.

Surface Pros can do things that no other tablet can. Your jealousy is showing.

That's nice and all, but your lack of useful and relevant examples is rather glaring.

I don't think anyone here is denying that the Surface line is trying to do something that's quite a bit different from what other tablets are doing. They're definitely targeting a different set of use cases than what the iPad, Fire, or Galaxy Tab lines are hitting, and I have no doubt that the Surface Pro can do stuff no other tablet can. But the important question isn't, "Does it do stuff no one else can?" The important question to ask is, "Are the things it can do of interest to people and executed well?" And based on sales numbers, professional reviews, and numerous firsthand accounts both here and elsewhere, the answer is a resounding, "No".

Really, when you get down to it, the Surface line is simply a fresh iteration of the same strategy Microsoft has been employing in the tablet space since the early 2000s: put Windows everywhere so that users can have the power of a "PC" in their hand. The only thing that's changed is the execution, and you don't need to look long and hard at Windows 8 reviews to know that they botched that as well. The strategy may actually work for them if it is executed properly, but the fact that the market stayed nascent for ten years until a competitor introduced a device employing an alternative strategy indicates that they didn't get it right then, and the fact that the Surface line hasn't seen any real uptake should be good indications that either the strategy is a losing one or else that they have yet to execute properly on it.

TL;DR: Just because a device can do stuff other devices can't doesn't mean it's a good idea. We don't want compact cars with truck beds, wedding cakes from Burger King, or tight-fitting exercise shorts made of designer denim. In trying to be both a tablet and laptop, the Surface ended up being good at neither.

It's an expensive piece of hardware whose performance doesn't justify the cost and whose size makes it a terrible fucking tablet. I could buy a Nexus 7 and a tolerable decent notebook for less than a Surface 3 and have the best of both worlds.

The MacBook Air isn't just a laptop. It is a laptop. That's all it is, and it's a darn good laptop. It does laptop things really well.

By not just being a tablet, the Surface has failed to be good at being anything at all. If you pit it against laptops, it's under-specced for the price. For that sort of money, you can do a lot better elsewhere. And if you pit it against tablets, it's lacking apps and overpriced. It's in a weird space between the two that no one is interested in. I commend them for trying something different than everyone else and trying to carve out a unique niche (really, I do!), but I don't see how this particular execution of their strategy can be painted as anything other than an extended failure that has yet to turn the corner. I honestly hope it will, but it has yet to do so.