(15-02-2013 09:04 AM)yakherder Wrote: I personally don't see vegetarianism as being superior.

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Since the question of 'superior' was raised, I have to present my own answer as well.

When someone makes an ethical decision, from the available options, he or she will choose one that makes the most sense to him/her.

This obviously implies that the other options make less sense to him/her.

Obviously they disagree with each others' reasons and that is fine.

Our best friends are meat eaters. When they invite us for supper, they cook vegetarian meals and when they come to our place, they don't expect meat dishes (and are forever delighted by the new experience of tasty dishes they had never heard of before).

I hope this covers the "superiority" question.

Sounds like you and your wife have a great attitude. It's funny we once invited a coworker of husband's over for dinner (this was years ago), we knew they were vegetarian and accommodated this without question. I did make a burger for our youngest child (he's on spectrum for autism and honestly veggies or any sort have been a long slow road for us). The coworker saw it and began to cry (totally not kidding) and spent an hour lecturing, with her husband, us on the evils of meats. Poor kiddo didn't understand and really thought he'd done something wrong (took us a couple days to talk him down from that one).

I just never understood why vegans or vegetarians feel the NEED to educate everyone and expect everyone to think as they do. It's rather like expecting Atheists because we share a common non-belief, that we should agree on everything else.

(15-02-2013 06:19 AM)Zat Wrote: StorMFront asked me: "Why be a vegan...your skeptical enough to be an atheist but your not skeptic enough to know we are omnivores?".

I offered to discuss it in a separate thread, but he declined.

After thinking about it some more, I decided to start another thread, explaining my reasons. Maybe there are others struggling with this issue and this might be some help for them.

We weren't always vegetarians. I was eating meat till my mid thirties and I have to admit, I was a real ‘carnivore’. I just loved meat, in any form, shape -- I loved the taste, the texture, even the smell of our favorite Hungarian Goulash and "paprikas porkolt".

Then I learned about the unspeakable cruelty to animals in the chicken factories, factory farms, abattoirs, food processing plants, fishing industry, etc.

That was just before we moved from Toronto out to our 50 acres in the country, so I suggested to my wife that we raise our own animals for food, in decent, free-ranging environment, without the cruelty associated with commercial meat products.

I asked: "Where do I build the chicken coup?"
She said: "No chicken coup -- I won't eat any living thing I know personally".
I said: "This is hypocrisy -- you let others do your dirty work for you?"
She said: "You are right"
I said: "Then we should not eat meat".
She said: "Fine".
I said: "Fine".

That day we stopped eating meat.

We are not Vegans, we eat milk products and eggs. Our rule is simple: we don't eat anything that visibly objects to being eaten.

This is not a religious (god forbid!) attitude -- it is only an ethical decision, combined with our soft-hearted love of animals, coupled with some logic for the sake of consistency and integrity.

After that day we discovered vegetarian cook books and the countless recipes that are enjoyable, nutritious, even exciting and adventurous. We eat a lot more interestingly than we used to when we were carnivores.

I know that we evolved as omnivores (I am not an idiot as some of the challenges implied).

Being omnivores implies a choice -- a choice that true carnivores like lions and wolves don't have.

We do.

One of the most frequently heard arguments against vegetarianism is "It is the natural thing to eat meat!".

We find that argument funny: Our entire history, as a human species, was spent fighting against natural things. Like dying of an infection, living in caves, freezing on cold nights, having to roam with the prey animals, hunting and gathering as we used to before agriculture was invented.

We evolved, with our science and technology, creating as unnatural an environment in our big cities as it gets.

There is room for further evolution.

Our science and technology makes it possible today to synthesize meat, in taste almost undistinguishable from what is gained from torturing and killing animals. It could be done on an industrial scale a lot cheaper than what producing meat costs today, if all the costs are considered.

And it would end the unspeakable cruelty we all participate in, as long as we eat meat produced by the meat industry.

Even now you can buy meat-tasting products (bacon, salami, chicken, etc) made from soy beans and I eat a lot of those because I like the taste.

So, there is room for evolving to our full potential as a scientific, technological civilization that does not need the barbaric, inefficient, wasteful survival skills of our primitive past.

Enf of rant.

I never declined to this, Im still trying to figure out how to tell where I even posted what I said. I never said anything long the line of not taking up your challenge.

Omnivores doesnt imply a choose, if we were in nature as wild human beings foraging off the land. You need protein, there is no source great enough in nature to satisfy this then meat. Nuts are good, yet youd never find enough of them in nature. What gives us the choose is our farming methods and science. Unspeakable cruelty? its how things just are. What makes a plant more important then a chicken? Theyre both living organisms. Ethically just because something feels means it better to kill it? Factory farming is cruel, but do you think we could produce the meat needed for 7 billion people without it? impossible. The only reason vegans can eat the way they do is because of western societies wealth. Tofu, soy based products and vitamin supplements are expensive. Lets see a 3rd world person survive off a vegan diet which they have to get. Synthesize meat doesnt exist, maybe once it does we can talk about it. Unless your talking about the human shit trials or the tests of growing meat in petri dishes trials, once we do have this, maybe we will have a solution.

Arguing with a Christian is a lot like playing chess with a pigeon. You can be the greatest player in the world, yet the pigeon will knock over all the pieces, shit on the board and strut away triumphantly.

Btw, Diary cows that dont produce milk get culled same with chickens. So your ethical stand point is not valid.

Arguing with a Christian is a lot like playing chess with a pigeon. You can be the greatest player in the world, yet the pigeon will knock over all the pieces, shit on the board and strut away triumphantly.