tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post5722087938992841948..comments2015-09-11T09:51:32.382-04:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: Loftus vs. Wood Debate on the Problem of EvilDr. Hector Avaloshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10840869326406664177noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-57308702957723356402010-01-17T18:33:45.526-05:002010-01-17T18:33:45.526-05:00Thought of the day..
Is it even logical or possib...Thought of the day..<br /><br />Is it even logical or possible that God would create us &quot;omniscient?&quot; Or would we have to be infinite in order to even be omniscient?<br /><br />Knowledge of consequences has to be learned.Breckminhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16059206540177008895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-44253444609183571282010-01-17T18:31:59.693-05:002010-01-17T18:31:59.693-05:00&quot;He chose to allow the near extermination of ...&quot;He chose to allow the near extermination of Jews.&quot;<br /><br />Even this statement is anthropomorphic. Is God a finite created existence that He should have to &quot;wait&quot; to make a decision?<br /><br />IOW, &quot;chose&quot; is imperfect as well as the word &quot;allow.&quot;<br /><br />We like to use the word &quot;allow&quot; when it comes to bad things and &quot;caused&quot; when it comes to the blessings. &quot;In control&quot; verses &quot;controling&quot; they are both anthropomorphic in applying them to God&#39;s Infinite Decree or state of atemporal ordination. Failing to address the role of human choices as causes and effects as well as the &quot;timing&quot; of all so called &quot;natural&quot; occurances in the universe makes it even more complicated.<br /><br />Imperfection is everywhere and God works PERFECTLY through imperfection. The problem of evil is not in explaining it...it is in how it is a danger to a being of choice who has the ability to love but needs KNOWLEDGE that needs to be learned in order to always choose correctly.<br /><br />The cosmological principles we see from Moses and the prophets teach us that &quot;we&quot; are the problem..NOT God.<br /><br />Jesus Christ and His Perfect Sacrifice on the Cross is the solution/answer to the problem of evil.Breckminhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16059206540177008895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-31459169165325524372010-01-17T18:27:45.108-05:002010-01-17T18:27:45.108-05:00Samphire, thanks so much! It looks just right to m...Samphire, thanks so much! It looks just right to me from what I&#39;ve received. It might get messed up and then it fix itself, I don&#39;t know. But it takes some time for the $ to show.John W. Loftushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13565890121197051580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-12440681975646262482010-01-17T18:20:59.070-05:002010-01-17T18:20:59.070-05:00&quot;murder becomes(sic)a foolish and meaningless...&quot;murder becomes(sic)a foolish and meaningless term(itself)to apply to a Creator&quot; Who owns and sustains every existence (but is not responsible for actions of beings of choice).<br /><br />No where do I see in these debates the role of knowledge and how it is connected to the &quot;love requires choice&quot; &quot;choice creates the inevitable and potential byproduct of evil (sin and disobedience)and existence of love is greater than the REAL problem of evil (not in explaining it...but in how it is a danger to beings of choice who CAN love).<br /><br />The role of knowledge and learning is perhaps the most important element in Theodicy and it is consistently missed in its relationship to learning to choose correctly.Breckminhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16059206540177008895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-18147060762983903112010-01-17T18:19:10.681-05:002010-01-17T18:19:10.681-05:00Hey - John,
This afternoon your ChipIn was showin...Hey - John,<br /><br />This afternoon your ChipIn was showing $3 donated to your account. Yes, 3 whole $s. <br /><br />I then contributed $5 by PayPal and now your ChipIn totals:<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Wait for it!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />$0<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />So, what&#39;s occurrin&#39;?Samphirehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00327984071854007032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-23252758386961798512010-01-17T18:07:31.867-05:002010-01-17T18:07:31.867-05:00it is utter absurdity to call God a &quot;murderer...it is utter absurdity to call God a &quot;murderer.&quot;<br /><br />Once you step into the assertion of theism you can&#39;t accuse God of doing anything unlawful because He is clearly Lord over the Law and is the Law Giver. God is therefore incapable of unlawful killing by default.<br /><br />It is also utterly ridiculous by the mere fact that God determines every lifespan in this temporary creation based on circumstances.<br /><br />That means that God somehow &quot;murders&quot; all of us and murder because a foolish and meaningless term to apply to the Creator and Sustainer of all.<br /><br />As long as people FAIL to address theism at its premises they will certainly fail at their conclusions regarding theism.<br /><br />God is the Giver and Taker of all life via circumstances...this includes the choices of individuals which are causes and effects on other people.<br /><br />God will have no trouble accepting responsibility for His &quot;actions&quot; (anthropomorphic since they are atemporal in connection to His Omniscience and state of existence which is transcendent)and the reality of the logic of the universe will trump all of our foolishness (here in this temporary creation) which failed to even understand the very basic<br />philosophical consistency of the Owner, Creator and Sustainer of the universe (which is filled with beings making choices they will account for). Choices which are observed and interacted with are still real decisions... blaming God for the circumstances of your decisions is evasive to the Creator&#39;s right to test you.Breckminhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16059206540177008895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-66673547503067589222010-01-17T16:28:16.090-05:002010-01-17T16:28:16.090-05:00Lose the hat; you&#39;re indoors. Use the microph...Lose the hat; you&#39;re indoors. Use the microphone; you&#39;re being recorded.Whitemanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14601621631993277594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-60572873093249993602009-03-15T17:36:00.000-04:002009-03-15T17:36:00.000-04:00FF-You stated "Christians believe because they cho...FF-You stated "Christians believe because they choose to, they like the comforting idea that they belong to God and will experience bliss forever. To give up such a belief is too much for them so they cling to it regardless of the evidence." I absolutely agree with your posit that believers CHOOSE to believe, just as non-believers CHOOSE not to. My question is for you--in what way does impugn a person's character? By saying that "non-believers don't believe in God because we choose not to. Its a matter of the will." in what way does that reflect negatively?<BR/><BR/>The only way to have a debate/discussion is to have one agreed-upon assertion and go from that assertion to two different conclusions. I saw this presentation as two parallel statements, each starting from a different assertion.<BR/><BR/>To be relevent, the two participants have to agree on WHAT 'evil'/'good' is or isn't. Since they do not, it's not a relevent discussion, really. <BR/><BR/>Evil is strictly a moral/spiritual distinction. A person who does not believe in a spiritual or moral law can't believe in 'evil's existence at all- so there is no such thing as 'natural evil' even though much suffering is caused by natural disasters. Suffering also results from accidents, as well as from evil.momofourhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02156024549077810947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-64343428934174631002007-07-21T21:50:00.000-04:002007-07-21T21:50:00.000-04:00FF, But I AM a bad man! It's my signature hat. I ...FF, But I AM a bad man! It's my signature hat. I like it. My wife thinks I look "sexy" in it, and if she's the only one then it's a good enough reason for me. ;-)<BR/><BR/>Yeah, about the debate proposition we had a long discussion about it <A HREF="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2007/01/responding-to-david-wood-part-1.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for watching it!John W. Loftushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13565890121197051580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-78188873793724506722007-07-21T21:34:00.000-04:002007-07-21T21:34:00.000-04:00John,Just watched the debate. Whats with the black...John,<BR/><BR/>Just watched the debate. Whats with the black hat? Were you trying to play the bad man?<BR/><BR/>I think you were hurt by how the proposition was framed. I would prefer something like: The existence of natural evil in the world makes the belief in the Biblical God implausible.<BR/><BR/>In other words, I can conceive of a supernatural being who might have created the world the way it is; but its not the God described in the Bible.<BR/><BR/>Also I read the reviews and I am aggravated that Wood does what so many other Christians do, i.e., impugn your character. He basically says that you and other non-believers don't believe in God because we choose not to. Its a matter of the will. <BR/><BR/>Why not turn that around. Christians believe because they choose to, they like the comforting idea that they belong to God and will experience bliss forever. To give up such a belief is too much for them so they cling to it regardless of the evidence.Former_Fundyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17200666746585022720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-16898156694020994942007-07-21T20:47:00.000-04:002007-07-21T20:47:00.000-04:00How can a god be told apart from a demon?God will ...<I>How can a god be told apart from a demon?</I><BR/>God will not be among those being tormented with fire and brimstone.Michael Ejercitohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10707862691472293497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-66701504510537202182007-07-21T12:47:00.000-04:002007-07-21T12:47:00.000-04:00How can a god be told apart from a demon?How can a god be told apart from a demon?Steven Carrhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-22039122514957835342007-07-20T19:44:00.000-04:002007-07-20T19:44:00.000-04:00Great.Great.Stuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16603375086735847395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-59616900879811042002007-07-19T19:21:00.000-04:002007-07-19T19:21:00.000-04:00Why, Michael, what does he get out of it?God has H...<I>Why, Michael, what does he get out of it?</I><BR/>God has His reasons; all we need to know is that He threatens us with eternal torment with fire and brimstone if we defy Him!Michael Ejercitohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10707862691472293497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-4656100972369563922007-07-19T19:09:00.000-04:002007-07-19T19:09:00.000-04:00Why, Michael, what does he get out of it?Why, Michael, what does he get out of it?Stuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16603375086735847395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-62536990713131492902007-07-19T18:49:00.000-04:002007-07-19T18:49:00.000-04:00Stu, God's absolute might is the foundation of mor...Stu, God's absolute might is the foundation of morality. <BR/><BR/>Since none can overthrow God, His will trumps all. He <I> could </I> have simply made us without will. But He made us so that we have a choice of obeying Him or eternal torment in the lake of fire.Michael Ejercitohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10707862691472293497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-74989986931807729952007-07-19T15:13:00.000-04:002007-07-19T15:13:00.000-04:00If people like Michael would stand up and say thin...If people like Michael would stand up and say things like this more often, I've no doubt that people would understand how devastating the problem of evil really is.<BR/><BR/>As an added bonus, no one would ask atheists where we get our morals, but there would be big question marks over the heads of Christians :)Tyrohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08694840174170043470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-22519815692027574972007-07-19T14:30:00.000-04:002007-07-19T14:30:00.000-04:00Michael dude if that's Christianity I'm glad I'm o...Michael dude if that's Christianity I'm glad I'm out of it. At least most Christians I know have the decency to make some effort to try and attribute some moral values to their god. Seems to me you're one step short of being a suicide bomber. After all if God can kill anyone he likes, then what's to stop him using you as his vehicle of justice?<BR/><BR/>Another thing I noticed from the debate: Wood said that knowing his child is going to abuse its free will to do wrong wouldn't stop him having the child. I wish someone had asked him would he still have the child if he was Herr Hitler Senior and knew exactly what baby Adolf would get up to?Stuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16603375086735847395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-47349789935250318362007-07-19T14:27:00.000-04:002007-07-19T14:27:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Stuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16603375086735847395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-60853128949544433312007-07-19T14:13:00.000-04:002007-07-19T14:13:00.000-04:00No deep comment, just wanted to thank you guys for...No deep comment, just wanted to thank you guys for getting the debate on line. I'm watching it right now.Rhologyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-24952302878859266802007-07-19T12:17:00.000-04:002007-07-19T12:17:00.000-04:00They worship some airy-fairy nebulous "God is Love...<I><BR/>They worship some airy-fairy nebulous "God is Love" from John 4. Sounds nice, but it takes some resolute ostriching since you have to ignore both the OT as well as reality.</I><BR/>I do not ignore the OT. <BR/><I>If God has the ability to alleviate/prevent suffering but does not, then God is culpable.</I><BR/>Wrong.<BR/><BR/>God is Lord of Lords and King of Kings, by virtue of His station He is not culpable for anything. <BR/><I>What would we call any human that killed 100 million people in one year, primarily healthy young adults? </I><BR/>We would likely call him a murderer. <BR/><I>A natural disaster like few others which God could have prevented.</I><BR/>God is Lord of Lords and King of Kings; He had no duty to prevent it.Michael Ejercitohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10707862691472293497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-57509161342538634712007-07-19T12:12:00.000-04:002007-07-19T12:12:00.000-04:00Michael,They worship some airy-fairy nebulous "God...Michael,<BR/><BR/>They worship some airy-fairy nebulous "God is Love" from John 4. Sounds nice, but it takes some resolute ostriching since you have to ignore both the OT as well as reality.<BR/><BR/><I>Explain how refusal to end suffering is evil.</I><BR/><BR/>Evil or amoral, take your pick.<BR/><BR/>If God has the ability to alleviate/prevent suffering but does not, then God is culpable. We correctly see humans who cause needless suffering as evil and God does this except on a much more massive scale.<BR/><BR/>What would we call any human that killed 100 million people in one year, primarily healthy young adults? That's what the Spanish Flu did in 18 months, dwarfing the deaths due to WW I and WW II combined. A natural disaster like few others which God could have prevented.<BR/><BR/>If that isn't evil, what is?Tyrohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08694840174170043470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-64862184291638780322007-07-19T11:12:00.000-04:002007-07-19T11:12:00.000-04:00Fortunately relatively few people believe in such ...<I><BR/>Fortunately relatively few people believe in such a monster and fewer still worship it.</I><BR/>So what God <I> do </I> they worship?<BR/><I>Make God so evil that all of this suffering fits his character. </I><BR/>Explain how refusal to end suffering is evil.Michael Ejercitohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10707862691472293497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-17655579913038558132007-07-19T01:56:00.000-04:002007-07-19T01:56:00.000-04:00Michael,What I have written about God is consisten...Michael,<BR/><BR/><I>What I have written about God is consistent with the Bible.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, what you have written is consistent with some of the bible, especially the old testament. The bible god really is amoral, even evil.<BR/><BR/>Fortunately relatively few people believe in such a monster and fewer still worship it. That's why I asked if you were serious.<BR/><BR/>Of course, your belief is the perfect response to the problem of suffering. Make God so evil that all of this suffering fits his character. Quite a disturbing response, though.Tyrohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08694840174170043470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-53927715432265017492007-07-19T00:15:00.000-04:002007-07-19T00:15:00.000-04:00I've heard those arguments before but doesn't it m...<I>I've heard those arguments before but doesn't it make God into a monster?</I><BR/>What I have written about God is consistent with the Bible.<BR/><BR/>Feel free to demonstrate otherwise.Michael Ejercitohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10707862691472293497noreply@blogger.com