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Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

In Start of Darkness, Redcloak is imprisoned by Lirian. He says he can't get out on his own. False. Redcloak is firmly established as 9th/10th level by his abillity to cast Flame Strike but not Heal. He can cast Plane Shift. 5th level spell and can accomodate Xykon and Right-eye. Why did he not do it? You can't say Lirian took the tuning fork because if she was that smart she would have taken the mantle.

Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

Well, she'd have to get rid of scrolls in case he had Use Magic Device ranks, so might as well grab reagents and the like too.

Originally Posted by The Giant

Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar. Sometimes, characters that have a similar hairstyle just have a similar hairstyle. How many hairstyles do you think there are that can be drawn in stick figure style, anyway?

Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

I always assumed the cave was warded against (at least up to midlevel) teleportations, plane shifts, and stoneshapes.

Lirian was epic, that trap down there was her "big project" to keep all kinds of spellcasting enemies trapped... so why not just "magically ward" it with spells from the book or a homebrew-version (she might even have help from Dorukan) and be done with it?

Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

Originally Posted by Winter

I always assumed the cave was warded against (at least up to midlevel) teleportations, plane shifts, and stoneshapes.

Lirian was epic, that trap down there was her "big project" to keep all kinds of spellcasting enemies trapped... so why not just "magically ward" it with spells from the book or a homebrew-version (she might even have help from Dorukan) and be done with it?

This. The implicit assumption of several lines of Redcloak's dialogue is that he already tried everything he knows how to do. I just didn't show it all because I had limited space, and because I assumed that the reader would understand that if a smart, tactically-minded caster like Redcloak says, "X is the only way out," then he probably tried the easy ways first.

After all, Lirian would have needed to ward her prison against people coming in to rescue them, too, which means locking it down to plane shifts and stone shapes, even if she thinks her prisoners are incapable of them. A restored Xykon, however, is more powerful than Lirian could ward against.

Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

Either that, or Xykon and Redcloak were the first people to make an attempt against that particular gate--it was in the middle of a forest, after all, so probably even the Holey Brotherhood didn't know it was there!

Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

Originally Posted by The Giant

This. The implicit assumption of several lines of Redcloak's dialogue is that he already tried everything he knows how to do. I just didn't show it all because I had limited space, and because I assumed that the reader would understand that if a smart, tactically-minded caster like Redcloak says, "X is the only way out," then he probably tried the easy ways first.

After all, Lirian would have needed to ward her prison against people coming in to rescue them, too, which means locking it down to plane shifts and stone shapes, even if she thinks her prisoners are incapable of them. A restored Xykon, however, is more powerful than Lirian could ward against.

That stuff cannot be penetrated by a high CL. how did Xykon break out. I find your information makes it hard to believe he meteor swarmed out and he wasn't epic back then

Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

Originally Posted by factotum

Either that, or Xykon and Redcloak were the first people to make an attempt against that particular gate--it was in the middle of a forest, after all, so probably even the Holey Brotherhood didn't know it was there!

Yes, the obscure location probably helped. After all, it hadn't been there centuries at that point, which would give more people time to stumble across it.. Though I don't have my copy immediately to hand, this would have taken place just a few years after the Gates had been built, correct?

Last edited by Bulldog Psion; 2012-09-04 at 12:06 PM.

Spoiler

Show

So the song runs on, with shift and change,
Through the years that have no name,
And the late notes soar to a higher range,
But the theme is still the same.
Man's battle-cry and the guns' reply
Blend in with the old, old rhyme
That was traced in the score of the strata marks
While millenniums winked like campfire sparks
Down the winds of unguessed time. -- 4th Stanza, The Bad Lands, Badger Clark

Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

That stuff cannot be penetrated by a high CL. how did Xykon break out. I find your information makes it hard to believe he meteor swarmed out and he wasn't epic back then

I always got the impression that he was epic, he just didn't really do much with it. Then he bacame undead, got an int boost, and lost his only real passion in life.

As for getting out of the cave, Superb Dispelling (mentioned by fitsclowningham above) could have don it. Its the dispel he used against Evil V, and its not in the PHB or even Spell compendium, making me think it is an epic spell that Xykon created for himself. Unless it comes from some other source...

Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

Originally Posted by RunicLGB

I always got the impression that he was epic, he just didn't really do much with it. Then he bacame undead, got an int boost, and lost his only real passion in life.

As for getting out of the cave, Superb Dispelling (mentioned by fitsclowningham above) could have don it. Its the dispel he used against Evil V, and its not in the PHB or even Spell compendium, making me think it is an epic spell that Xykon created for himself. Unless it comes from some other source...

So the song runs on, with shift and change,
Through the years that have no name,
And the late notes soar to a higher range,
But the theme is still the same.
Man's battle-cry and the guns' reply
Blend in with the old, old rhyme
That was traced in the score of the strata marks
While millenniums winked like campfire sparks
Down the winds of unguessed time. -- 4th Stanza, The Bad Lands, Badger Clark

Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

That stuff cannot be penetrated by a high CL. how did Xykon break out. I find your information makes it hard to believe he meteor swarmed out and he wasn't epic back then

Power of the Plot. Who cares how Xykon broke out? His level has been since always "Ridiculously High", he simply has the power to "do". He needs 8 or whatever level 9 spells? He has them. He needs three (or more) epic spells? He has them.

The point of Xykon and his level, since that character got first introduced, was that he is of such a high level that it simply does not matter anymore what it is. 25 or 55 who cares? He is not the enemy you defeat by punching him. He's the Big Bad and the End of All Things.
Xykon is the worst thing that could happen and he's nigh undefeatable.

That is the point of such a powerful enemy. Compare him to the Emperor of Star Wars. He has such massive amount of power that it simply does not matter anymore to quantise it any meaningful way.
You fight him straight on? You lose.

There are some enemies against which you simply cannot do anything at all. Xykon is one of such.

The story that The Giant tells here is going to end up a big win because the Order is against a foe that is so powerful that cannot be, by any measure, be beaten - but they still will have managed somehow (paying a high prize in the process as well, probably).
It's how "High End Enemies" and stories with them as Villains work.

Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

Originally Posted by Winter

The point of Xykon and his level, since that character got first introduced, was that he is of such a high level that it simply does not matter anymore what it is. 25 or 55 who cares? He is not the enemy you defeat by punching him. He's the Big Bad and the End of All Things.
Xykon is the worst thing that could happen and he's nigh undefeatable.

That is the point of such a powerful enemy. Compare him to the Emperor of Star Wars. He has such massive amount of power that it simply does not matter anymore to quantise it any meaningful way.
You fight him straight on? You lose.

Yes, this is pretty much it. The only one who had a shot at bringing him down was Soon, who was also presumably so epic that he could have flattened Xykon's whole army personally if they'd entered the throne room.

Last edited by Bulldog Psion; 2012-09-04 at 12:38 PM.

Spoiler

Show

So the song runs on, with shift and change,
Through the years that have no name,
And the late notes soar to a higher range,
But the theme is still the same.
Man's battle-cry and the guns' reply
Blend in with the old, old rhyme
That was traced in the score of the strata marks
While millenniums winked like campfire sparks
Down the winds of unguessed time. -- 4th Stanza, The Bad Lands, Badger Clark

Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

The only one who had a shot at bringing him down was Soon, who was also presumably so epic that he could have flattened Xykon's whole army personally if they'd entered the throne room.

And note Soon only had a chance because Xykon was horribly reckless there and acted very stupidly in that fight. What we saw from him since then indicates Xykon won't make that mistake anymore, which means he's gotten even more dangerous by that near-defeat.

If his plan to hide his phylactery in his totally insane Astral Plane Fortress worked, he'd probably have been as invincible as it would ever get and the point of fighting him at all would have been gone.
For all the ill Redcloak did in creating the abomination "Xykon" the world (the entire multiverse) probably has to thank him he put a stop to that last escalation.

Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

Originally Posted by Winter

If his plan to hide his phylactery in his totally insane Astral Plane Fortress worked, he'd probably have been as invincible as it would ever get and the point of fighting him at all would have been gone.
For all the ill Redcloak did in creating the abomination "Xykon" the world (the entire multiverse) probably has to thank him he put a stop to that last escalation.

An excellent point.

Spoiler

Show

So the song runs on, with shift and change,
Through the years that have no name,
And the late notes soar to a higher range,
But the theme is still the same.
Man's battle-cry and the guns' reply
Blend in with the old, old rhyme
That was traced in the score of the strata marks
While millenniums winked like campfire sparks
Down the winds of unguessed time. -- 4th Stanza, The Bad Lands, Badger Clark

Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

Originally Posted by Bulldog Psion

Though I don't have my copy immediately to hand, this would have taken place just a few years after the Gates had been built, correct?

Indeed it was. However, I think it's pretty clear that the rifts hadn't been there for centuries before the Gates were built anyway...the implication in the strip is that Soon was one of the first to discover them (if you can call being there when his wife got killed by a massive claw from it "discovery").

Re: Redcloak's Escape (SOD Spoilers)

However, I think it's pretty clear that the rifts hadn't been there for centuries before the Gates were built anyway...the implication in the strip is that Soon was one of the first to discover them

We do not know that. We do not know how many elves, hunters, nymphs, deer, squirrels etc got eaten before someone got away to tell the story.

It might be possible the rifts were there all the time as all of them are in areas were people are not likely to cross on an occasional basis. In the desert, the ice, the wilderness, the mountains, a tiny spot in the sky...
Maybe they were there, maybe the are new. We do not know (and I think it's not that clear in the comic; especially as we see the perspective of Soon, which does not have to be the full truth).

So yes, Soon was one of the first to discover them but that does not carry any information on the age of the things.