How am I being an ignorant fool? I have no frustration to whack out, and whether or not you have respect for me, people will STILL try to research.
Research a bit more or tone down what you said. “Doomed”, “blind faith”, “no hope”, “pity” are all very extreme. Any justification between those words? You have no idea about me or 99% of the rest of the Christians.

I never said I had knowledge about what other Christians feel about their religion. But I do know that you read so deep into those words you could see the wires behind your computer screen.
doomed – They are “fated” to listen to these for awhile… in your opinion, a long while.
blind faith – Isn’t that all faith in God is? Blind? Has anyone seen God?
no hope – If noone researches or studies what/where God is, how can anyone have any hope of learning something new?
pity – I do not lie when I say I pity anyone who follows the herd. Anyone who reads only your post without reading mind will assume I am what you say; an “ignorant fool”. I am no longer Christian. Call me what you will. All I know is I’ve questioned my beliefs. It’s done alot more for me than anything my priest or any priest I’ve ever spoken to has done for me.

The sentence was supposed to show the desperation many people have with listening to the same line over and over again in a Christian mass. I was born and raised a Christian. After my mother passed away, I listened to these Reading with a renewed vigor. But all I heard was, “Be nice until you die. Then you win.”
Personal experience does not explain global experience. You do not know what we hear in our church, the church next door, the church on the other side of the world. All you know is what you heard in your church and what you made of it. Perhaps you weren’t interested, perhaps you weren’t listening, you don’t want to be a Christian and therefore you do not like what they said. Simple.

If they’re all Christian, should they not be preaching the same Word? The Bible must be interpreted; I’ll give you that. But when 200,000 churches are interpreting 200,000 ways, it tends to make alot of confusion.

Please explain to me how anyone can be totally satisfied.
As a Christian? As an atheist? Do what you like and skip what you don’t. I like being a Christian. You don’t. Solved?

No, not solved. You totally swerved my question. But I’ll digress on this one.

Tell that to the 1st and 2nd Century Europeans that beat that into their enemies with swords and chains.
Sure, shove it towards religion and let’s not forget to completely remove all traces of every single other war that has been fought over the ages. CHRISTIANITYDID IT! BURNTHEM!

After early civilizations like Rome accepted one religion, wars broke out for no other reason than to spread the loving Message of God.

Tell it to the priests and Christians in the ’60’s and ’70’s that swore up and down a wall that homosexual men and women were doomed to an eternity to hell.
Well, screw them. Not everyone is like them. If their personality makes them do bad things, they are to blame.

If everyone is not like them, then why are homosexual marriages still banned. I see more reasons based solely on religion than anything else.

Tell that to the priests that have little Timmy the altar boy giving them a happy ending under the desk.
“Tell that to the scientists who have been developing nukes and allowing millions of people to be slaughtered.” Emotional effort doesn’t work here, sorry. Such stuff happens daily. You blame the priests, but once again “forget” about the rest of the world.

I haven’t forgotten the rest of the world. This argument is aimed at the priests. I am not arguing that scientists have been innocent. I am not saying world leaders are perfect beings who lead us down the right path every day. I AM arguing that these “holy men” that are trusted with people’s darkest secrets during Confession, trusted with “purifying” our children at Baptism, and trusted with making sure we see Heaven on our deathbed are totally defeating the purpose with the stunts many of them pull off. The fact that “such stuff happens daily” is exactly the point I’m trying to make.

I don’t beat down anything until I know exactly what it is I’m beating down. I’ve done my homework.
Pretty one-sided homework you have there. What about non-theists?

What about non-theists?

Edit: I hope you understand, Dark, that I am not trying to insult you or your religion in any way. If I am coming across harsh, you have to understand that my family is unbelievably orthodox. Old-school. When I used to question our faith in front of them, I was always answered with “You have to believe. It’s the right thing to do.” It doesn’t float my boat. 7 years of being forced to do something you don’t necessarily want to do can be damaging.

blind faith – Isn’t that all faith in God is? Blind? Has anyone seen God?

Has anyone seen the big bang? I trust science that it happened. Is that blind faith? Oh, there’s evidence, suddenly it’s no longer blind faith.

no hope – If noone researches or studies what/where God is, how can anyone have any hope of learning something new?

Who says religion is there to learn? No, science already serves that purpose. I am religious purely for what you might call “illogical reasons”. Hope is triggered with belief, unless you don’t want to believe. You don’t, no hope for you if you are a believer.

pity – I do not lie when I say I pity anyone who follows the herd.

Better description. Did you realize there are more “herds” out there than just religion?

Anyone who reads only your post without reading mind will assume I am what you say; an “ignorant fool”. I am no longer Christian. Call me what you will. All I know is I’ve questioned my beliefs. It’s done alot more for me than anything my priest or any priest I’ve ever spoken to has done for me.

If they’re all Christian, should they not be preaching the same Word? The Bible must be interpreted; I’ll give you that. But when 200,000 churches are interpreting 200,000 ways, it tends to make alot of confusion.

Religion has no standard. Otherwise you’d be screaming about loss of free will. The beautiful thing about beliefs is that you can have different views and discuss them with others.

No, not solved. You totally swerved my question. But I’ll digress on this one.

Call it what you will. It seems like you’re arguing Christians can never be satisfied and atheists can, basic generalisation.

After early civilizations like Rome accepted one religion, wars broke out for no other reason than to spread the loving Message of God.

Dur. You’re still only accepting that religion started wars. I do not disagree that they did, humans are easily corrupted.

If everyone is not like them, then why are homosexual marriages still banned. I see more reasons based solely on religion than anything else.

Homosexual marriage is not banned here.

I haven’t forgotten the rest of the world. This argument is aimed at the priests. I am not arguing that scientists have been innocent. I am not saying world leaders are perfect beings who lead us down the right path every day. I AM arguing that these “holy men” that are trusted with people’s darkest secrets during Confession, trusted with “purifying” our children at Baptism, and trusted with making sure we see Heaven on our deathbed are totally defeating the purpose with the stunts many of them pull off.

Let’s call them the bad apples. Sue them. Put them in jail. You do the same with murderers, why not with them? Why blame religion for it?

The fact that “such stuff happens daily” is exactly the point I’m trying to make.

It is mine as well. You’re focusing your entire view on priests and fail to see what else happens in this world. I would want a peaceful world as well, but this is the nature of humans.

What about non-theists?

I’m asking you. It is not just those theists being wrong. You luckily mentioned some non-theists above, but we have to focus on the “bad apples” (as I named them before) not immediately blame religion for having a few.

EDIT:

I hope you understand, Dark, that I am not trying to insult you or your religion in any way. If I am coming across harsh, you have to understand that my family is unbelievably orthodox. Old-school. When I used to question our faith in front of them, I was always answered with “You have to believe. It’s the right thing to do.” It doesn’t float my boat. 7 years of being forced to do something you don’t necessarily want to do can be damaging.

I understand. I obviously know there is a bad part in religion, bad humans that do nothing but force people to stay or even undermine science. Now get my view too. I have been living in a friendly religion environment, I have not seen a single “bad” soul within my church or from another belief. Then people come on the intarwebs and bash Christians to hell, you feel what I feel? I need to defend them and myself.

I should have posted earlier than I am not atheist. After I questioned all things religious, I fond solace in Buddhist philosophy. While I don’t believe in a god in particular, I feel pretty certain that something is out there.

“Doomed” is described a lot more severe here.

I will agree with you on my “doomed” phrase. I should have found a better word for it.

Has anyone seen the big bang? I trust science that it happened. Is that blind faith? Oh, there’s evidence, suddenly it’s no longer blind faith.

You make a good point on the “blind faith” as well. I’ll give that one to you.

Who says religion is there to learn? No, science already serves that purpose. I am religious purely for what you might call “illogical reasons”. Hope is triggered with belief, unless you don’t want to believe. You don’t, no hope for you if you are a believer.

Religion and science are apples and oranges. I can see what you’re saying about religion, though. But is this to say that there is NO learning in religion? Is it simply standard by which a person MUST live?

Better description. Did you realize there are more “herds” out there than just religion?

I’ve always been “non-conformist”. Whether its clothing, music, styles, religion, what have you. America, in particular, is becoming nothing abut a herd. I totally agree with you on this topic. But what’s happening in religion is that new generations of religious people rely on nothing but faith. The point I make in my edit shows that. They only believe because they are told to. Do they necessarily want to?

No. It’s not. I apologize for not thinking before I made that statement.

Religion has no standard. Otherwise you’d be screaming about loss of free will. The beautiful thing about beliefs is that you can have different views and discuss them with others.

Is it so beautiful when certain sects in the same religion are arguing about beliefs? People become so wrapped up in their own religion, they no longer “discuss” but argue.

Call it what you will. It seems like you’re arguing Christians can never be satisfied and atheists can, basic generalisation.

I see where you are going with this. I doubt anyone will ever be TOTALLY satisfied with their religion. I was atheist for awhile, mind you. But the thought of absolutely nothing above me was kind of depressing. I knew there was something else.

Dur. You’re still only accepting that religion started wars. I do not disagree that they did, humans are easily corrupted.

I understand the many other reasons for wars. But one of the roots of each of these wars is religion. Perfect example. The Gallic Wars. The history books say that the Gauls and Germanic tribes were encroaching upon Rome. I distinctly see one of the reason made by Romans was that these heathen, baby murdering, ritualistic tribes were insulting Roman gods.

Homosexual marriage is not banned here.

Where do you live? I applaud your local laws. Does your local church voice their opinion on these marriages?

Let’s call them the bad apples. Sue them. Put them in jail. You do the same with murderers, why not with them? Why blame religion for it?

Roman Christianity prevents male priests from having wives. I believe that human nature is to keep the population alive. And because keeping the population alive “feels so good”, a male priest will only find other ways to do it. I don’t agree with it, but I see religious practices at fault here.

I’m asking you. It is not just those theists being wrong. You luckily mentioned some non-theists above, but we have to focus on the “bad apples” (as I named them before) not immediately blame religion for having a few.

I’m still not quite following the “What about theists?” question. Are you referring to all the evil things they do as well? I agree that they are to blame for many moral problems here as well.

I see your argument and I hope you don’t hold a grudge against me for the remainder of your life. Perhaps my beef is with the orthodox Christian; who still lives in 2CE. My girlfriend is Catholic and we occasionally talk religion and philosophy. Very good conversation, but it usually ends in a stalemate. I respect your need to defend yourself and your religion. I hope you’ll accept my apology for coming across so harsh.

Religion and science are apples and oranges. I can see what you’re saying about religion, though. But is this to say that there is NO learning in religion? Is it simply standard by which a person MUST live?

There is learning, but you can see it as the Greek language. It no longer evolves or advances, since the religion is set. Christianity is based on the Bible, but the Bible does not get rewritten or updated. There is only so much to learn, after that, it’s up to you. My beliefs did not stand still, I have learned a lot throughout my life, but I came up to a point where it’s only very minor things that are changing. I’ve basically confirmed my beliefs and I do believe in them. The only thing left to learn is what others think of my belief and how they believe theirself.

I’ve always been “non-conformist”. Whether its clothing, music, styles, religion, what have you. America, in particular, is becoming nothing abut a herd. I totally agree with you on this topic. But what’s happening in religion is that new generations of religious people rely on nothing but faith. The point I make in my edit shows that. They only believe because they are told to. Do they necessarily want to?

I don’t follow a herd myself, in any case. Clothing and music are examples, I do what I like, not what the masses like. I have my own belief and it may be different from others in my church, but we still believe in the same God, the same Jesus Christ. I understand there are people blindly following each other, not even knowing why. I wish I could teach them how to be more free in their beliefs, the Bible is not the only way to look at God.

Is it so beautiful when certain sects in the same religion are arguing about beliefs? People become so wrapped up in their own religion, they no longer “discuss” but argue.

Yes, that will unfortunately always happen. Even within economics, scientists are constantly arguing. I studied two opposing views this period and heard that there is still arguing over which view is the “best”. This is no different in religion.

I see where you are going with this. I doubt anyone will ever be TOTALLY satisfied with their religion. I was atheist for awhile, mind you. But the thought of absolutely nothing above me was kind of depressing. I knew there was something else.

We have the same, general search for satisfaction, namely believing something supernatural exists. I may not be satisfied with my religion, but I am satisfied with my belief. See it as being satisfied with my city, but not fully with my country.

I understand the many other reasons for wars. But one of the roots of each of these wars is religion. Perfect example. The Gallic Wars. The history books say that the Gauls and Germanic tribes were encroaching upon Rome. I distinctly see one of the reason made by Romans was that these heathen, baby murdering, ritualistic tribes were insulting Roman gods.

I know about those. In fact, I know that religion was heavily abused throughout time to be able to make war. I blame them, and I wish they didn’t screw with religion through that, but it’s too late. As a person, I cannot do much, but I can share my views on religion in general and beliefs in detail to show that some people are easily corrupted or follow the masses without knowing why. I do not believe in a God sending men to war and ordering them to kill those who do not believe, and I wish I could confront those who do, though that will unlikely be very healthy.

Where do you live? I applaud your local laws. Does your local church voice their opinion on these marriages?

The Netherlands. Free country. You can have any ethnicity you like, any religion you need, and basically follow any political party you support. Don’t see it as a land full of chaos, we are pretty well established, it’s just a lot more free here. I must admit the conservative “higher ups” (there is not really a ranking system in the church) would probably oppose homosexual marriage (they are supportive of the Christian religion, not of their own beliefs), but the local church is very liberal. The pastor of our church accepts anyone, also homosexuals. Honestly one of the kindest I’ve ever met. There may be a few older people in my church opposing it, but religion was much more restrictive in the past and that is how they got taught.

Roman Christianity prevents male priests from having wives. I believe that human nature is to keep the population alive. And because keeping the population alive “feels so good”, a male priest will only find other ways to do it. I don’t agree with it, but I see religious practices at fault here.

The point that priests can’t have wives is basically the reason we have very few left of them. Most pastors here are liberal and see that to be able to understand people/children the most, they need to have had their share with a wife and children of their own. This is honestly one point in religion I do not agree with myself.

I’m still not quite following the “What about theists?” question. Are you referring to all the evil things they do as well? I agree that they are to blame for many moral problems here as well.

Non-theists.

What I’m saying is that some here are trigger-happy to blame theists for everything they can, while non-theist murderers don’t get a single mention. I guess religion is still too negative in people’s minds.

I see your argument and I hope you don’t hold a grudge against me for the remainder of your life. I hope you’ll accept my apology for coming across so harsh.

No grudge held in the first place, and apology accepted, though none needed. This is still serious discussion, and I can very much see the flames spark at times. ;)

Perhaps my beef is with the orthodox Christian; who still lives in 2CE. My girlfriend is Catholic and we occasionally talk religion and philosophy. Very good conversation, but it usually ends in a stalemate. I respect your need to defend yourself and your religion.

I’m a Roman-Catholic and my girlfriend is too. Probably a shame, since she is the one I talk with the most, but our beliefs are generally the same. And I agree on your statement about the very orthodox Christians.

how was god made? if you say he always was why cant i say that the universe always was. truly thou the idea of having a god implies god has a creator. and that creator has a creator and so on and so on.

i don think there is a god. or he/she would of stop tones of peep dieing in sme kind of tragic way. right? and if “god” was so loving and careing like peep that belive in him say he is, he/she would of saved them and he/she want send rthem 2 hell, right. as he/she is ment 2 be all forgin. so that y i dont bevlie in god. and y there is no god.

My beliefs of God’s existence are summed up this way: The universe is far too complex for it to be random chance.

Why’s that? What about it is so complicated that pure chance isn’t able to explain it.

Think of it this way. You want result X, which happens to be something like rolling a million ones on a million fair, six-sided dice, in a single roll (the probability of any of the steps that result in abiogenesis, for instance, are far more likely than this). But then realize that those dice are rolled a near infinite number of times. Every time lightening struck, there was a small chance for amino acids to form.

Then you take into account the sheer number of planets out there, and the chances of life evolving on ONE of them is actually pretty high, really. A one in 500 million chance, with 10 billion planets (Or however many planets there are, although I’m pretty sure we have no clue), the probability is actually so high as to be a near-certainty.

Of course, this explanation is wrong on a lot of points, but I hope you get the point.

I wasn’t talking to you, I was talking to the thread. This is dumb, and only serves to fractal the discussion, cause repetition, and clutter the forum. People will be encouraged to post even more religious threads asking the exact same question in a slightly different way.

Go post in the old thread. You can even pick up where you left off here, linking the previous post and making a post here linking to your post in the original thread. Then we can let this one fall off.

Note: This isn’t my mod voice. I’m not a forum mod. I have no say. I’m just making an aggressive suggestion.

In any holy book, when asked a question, God (or variety thereof) will always answer with yes, no or maybe, often in a different way than just speech. Well, think of God as a milk bottle. You buy a lottery ticket, then pray to the milk bottle to make you win the lottery. You go to sleep to see the results of the lottery in the morning.ANSWER = YES: You watch the lottery and see that you have won the jackpot of a hundred million pounds. You praise the milk bottle and collect your money later on in the day.ANSWER = NO: You watch the lottery and see that you do not win it. You ask the milk bottle why you didn’t win, but still pray to it daily.ANSWER = MAYBE: You oversleep and do not see the results of the lottery. Either that, or you forget to watch it for some reason. You now do not know whether you will win the jackpot or not, so you wait. Later on in the day, you will either collect the money, having won the lottery, or you won’t.
Thus the milk bottle has given you an answer of yes, no or maybe, just like God always gave answers of yes, no or maybe in appropriate holy book name here. You figure it out.

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