Spice Girls first album (plus the Wannabe single, which was a big hit) came out in 1996, Backstreet Boys released their debut in 1996, the little girls in Hanson released MMMBop in 1996 (the single came out in 1997, though), Robyn's debut came out in 1995, Aqua released the single "Roses Are Red" in 1996 and Savage Released two singles from their self-titled album in 1996.

And Garbage is garbage. I'm glad their name is so fitting.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon11/06/15 at 3:28 pm

Mid-90s, without a doubt. It was still the peak of gangsta rap, britpop, Alanis Morissette, No Doubt, Beavis & Butthead, Alicia Silverstone, Power Rangers, Coolio, non-bubblegum eurodance, Golden Age Nicktoons, etc., etc. Although the Spice Girls and Backstreet Boys were already popular in Europe by the summer of 1996, teen pop was not a specifically late 90s movement in that region as it was in the United States; the mid-90s had groups like Take That, Boyzone, East 17, and Eternal dominating the charts while Boyz II Men and Monica were rocking the airwaves across the pond.

To be fair, the last third of 1996 was especially pivotal in the development of late 90s culture. This was when 2Pac was killed, the Nintendo 64 and Super Mario 64 revolutionized 3D gaming, the PlayStation became much more popular thanks to Crash Bandicoot and Tomb Raider, Hey Arnold! and Kablam! premiered on Nickelodeon, Alice in Chains went on hiatus, and Teddy Riley revolutionized urban pop with No Diggity. Frosted tips were also just starting to become more popular with guys. Still, it was not really until about February 1997 that the late 90s feel began to outweigh mid-90s culture, which still had a pretty strong presence in late 1996. The mid-90s weren't completely dead until the autumn of 1997, when the britpop movement officially died, Biggie and Princess Diana had passed on, Tony Blair was the Prime Minister of the UK, 4-player party games like GoldenEye 007 were plentiful on the N64, the PlayStation had Final Fantasy VII and Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, The Simpsons aired the notorious The Principle and the Pauper episode, South Park overtook Beavis & Butthead as the politically incorrect cartoon of the day, the Cartoon Cartoons and Klasky Csupo eras of children's cartoons were in full swing with shows like Angry Beavers, Johnny Bravo, and Cow & Chicken; the Dot Com Bubble became fairly traceable, glam rap and millennial teen pop were industry standards, and Coolio charted his last hit single (C U When U Get there in most territories, Ooh La La in New Zealand and Great Britain).

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:bchris02on11/06/15 at 4:09 pm

Mid '90s. Teen pop had not exploded yet. There were still a lot of euro-dance hits as well as ballads that were popular that year.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/06/15 at 9:58 pm

Culturally, late '90s.

The first Scream movie was released in '96. The commercial success of the first two films would lead to the third one being filmed in 1999, the first year of the new millennium.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:80sfanon11/06/15 at 10:16 pm

Culturally, late '90s.

The first Scream movie was released in '96. The commercial success of the first two films would lead to the third one being filmed in 1999, the first year of the new millennium.

You've got a point, but Scream was released very late in 1996, like December-ish.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/06/15 at 10:59 pm

You've got a point, but Scream was released very late in 1996, like December-ish.

3rd Rock from the Sun premiered on January 9th of 1996. In the very early 2000s, it was on from January 5th of 1999 to May 22, 2001.

The mid '90s really came to end at the start of 1996 when shows like California Dreams went off the air.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/07/15 at 12:01 am

Mid-90s, without a doubt. It was still the peak of gangsta rap, britpop, Alanis Morissette, No Doubt, Beavis & Butthead, Alicia Silverstone, Power Rangers, Coolio, non-bubblegum eurodance, Golden Age Nicktoons, etc., etc. Although the Spice Girls and Backstreet Boys were already popular in Europe by the summer of 1996, teen pop was not a specifically late 90s movement in that region as it was in the United States; the mid-90s had groups like Take That, Boyzone, East 17, and Eternal dominating the charts while Boyz II Men and Monica were rocking the airwaves across the pond.

To be fair, the last third of 1996 was especially pivotal in the development of late 90s culture. This was when 2Pac was killed, the Nintendo 64 and Super Mario 64 revolutionized 3D gaming, the PlayStation became much more popular thanks to Crash Bandicoot and Tomb Raider, Hey Arnold! and Kablam! premiered on Nickelodeon, Alice in Chains went on hiatus, and Teddy Riley revolutionized urban pop with No Diggity. Frosted tips were also just starting to become more popular with guys. Still, it was not really until about February 1997 that the late 90s feel began to outweigh mid-90s culture, which still had a pretty strong presence in late 1996. The mid-90s weren't completely dead until the autumn of 1997, when the britpop movement officially died, Biggie and Princess Diana had passed on, Tony Blair was the Prime Minister of the UK, 4-player party games like GoldenEye 007 were plentiful on the N64, the PlayStation had Final Fantasy VII and Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, The Simpsons aired the notorious The Principle and the Pauper episode, South Park overtook Beavis & Butthead as the politically incorrect cartoon of the day, the Cartoon Cartoons and Klasky Csupo eras of children's cartoons were in full swing with shows like Angry Beavers, Johnny Bravo, and Cow & Chicken; the Dot Com Bubble became fairly traceable, glam rap and millennial teen pop were industry standards, and Coolio charted his last hit single (C U When U Get there in most territories, Ooh La La in New Zealand and Great Britain).

The Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers were not around from January of 1993 onward, so I do not think of them as definitive pop culture phenomenons of the 'core '90s'. It was the 21 Jump Street effect with the Power Rangers. They were introduced IN the mid '90s, blew up in 1994, and it had a "sister series" towards the end of that era. The series really jumped the shark in the second year of the late '90s, but it was still there from start to finish in that period.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon11/07/15 at 1:16 am

3rd Rock from the Sun premiered on January 9th of 1996. In the very early 2000s, it was on from January 5th of 1999 to May 22, 2001.

The mid '90s really came to end at the start of 1996 when shows like California Dreams went off the air.

Actually, California Dreams went off the air at the end of 1996, not the beginning. The only significant television series off the top of my head that ended around the turn of 1996 was Ren & Stimpy, which had degenerated into a joke by its final season, anyway.

Really, early 1996 is almost identical to late 1995. The only remotely significant developments from that time were the release of Resident Evil (the PS1's first killer app) and premiere of Dexter's Laboratory (the first Cartoon Cartoon series on Cartoon Network), neither of which were large enough at the time to mark any significant shift quite yet. The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air ended in May, but like Ren & Stimpy, it was more popular in the early 90s. Otherwise, the first two thirds of 1996 were basically a direct continuation of late 1995, during which gangsta rap influences were ubiquitous in popular music, Alanis Morissette was the queen of alternative rock, Biggie and Pac were at the height of their popularity, the Super Nintendo was the undisputed frontrunner during a time of several failed consoles (even the PS1 hadn't quite hit its stride yet), Toy Story became a harbinger of the future of animation, the Internet was breaking into mainstream culture for the first time, britpop was at its most successful, and Alicia Silverstone was the biggest female role model of the day.

The Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers were not around from January of 1993 onward, so I do not think of them as definitive pop culture phenomenons of the 'core '90s'. It was the 21 Jump Street effect with the Power Rangers. They were introduced IN the mid '90s, blew up in 1994, and it had a "sister series" towards the end of that era. The series really jumped the shark in the second year of the late '90s, but it was still there from start to finish in that period.

1993 isn't core 90s, it's quintessential early 90s, with a decent amount of mid-90s influence during the second half. Women still sported 80s-style perms instead of Rachels, while African American males still predominantly had eraser tops instead of dreadlocks. Pop punk, post-grunge, and britpop were nonexistent in the mainstream. The X-Files and Frasier were only just getting started. Gangsta rap was finally mainstream in 1993, but its influence in general pop industry productions would not extend beyond South Central L.A. until the following year, with stuff like I Got a Man, Looking Through Patient Eyes, and Boom! Shake the Room still representing most of the mainstream hip hop industry. Sega Genesis was still more successful than Super Nintendo, the long and awkward transition into the fifth generation of gaming still not really underway yet aside from the failed Atari Jaguar in December. All three of the original Nicktoons were still in their prime (though Ren & Stimpy was just starting to decline). Kurt Cobain was still alive. Bad Boy Records was still on its way to mainstream success. The Newt Gingrich Republican Congress wouldn't be elected until late 1994. The Disney Renaissance was still in the midst of its peak (though there wasn't a new Renaissance film in 1993, people were still excited about Aladdin that year, with the pop version of A Whole New World becoming a Billboard Hot 100 #1 hit, the only Disney song to ever do so, plus there was an extremely popular platformer on the SNES and Genesis based on the movie).

I understand popular culture died for you in 1993, thus marking a huge turning point from your perspective, but I personally think this shift you speak of was really just the year marking the basic end of Bush '41-era influences on popular culture (aka, the point when things no longer felt vaguely 80s).

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/07/15 at 7:19 am

Actually, California Dreams went off the air at the end of 1996, not the beginning. The only significant television series off the top of my head that ended around the turn of 1996 was Ren & Stimpy, which had degenerated into a joke by its final season, anyway.

Really, early 1996 is almost identical to late 1995. The only remotely significant developments from that time were the release of Resident Evil (the PS1's first killer app) and premiere of Dexter's Laboratory (the first Cartoon Cartoon series on Cartoon Network), neither of which were large enough at the time to mark any significant shift quite yet. The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air ended in May, but like Ren & Stimpy, it was more popular in the early 90s. Otherwise, the first two thirds of 1996 were basically a direct continuation of late 1995, during which gangsta rap influences were ubiquitous in popular music, Alanis Morissette was the queen of alternative rock, Biggie and Pac were at the height of their popularity, the Super Nintendo was the undisputed frontrunner during a time of several failed consoles (even the PS1 hadn't quite hit its stride yet), Toy Story became a harbinger of the future of animation, the Internet was breaking into mainstream culture for the first time, britpop was at its most successful, and Alicia Silverstone was the biggest female role model of the day.

1993 isn't core 90s, it's quintessential early 90s, with a decent amount of mid-90s influence during the second half. Women still sported 80s-style perms instead of Rachels, while African American males still predominantly had eraser tops instead of dreadlocks. Pop punk, post-grunge, and britpop were nonexistent in the mainstream. The X-Files and Frasier were only just getting started. Gangsta rap was finally mainstream in 1993, but its influence in general pop industry productions would not extend beyond South Central L.A. until the following year, with stuff like I Got a Man, Looking Through Patient Eyes, and Boom! Shake the Room still representing most of the mainstream hip hop industry. Sega Genesis was still more successful than Super Nintendo, the long and awkward transition into the fifth generation of gaming still not really underway yet aside from the failed Atari Jaguar in December. All three of the original Nicktoons were still in their prime (though Ren & Stimpy was just starting to decline). Kurt Cobain was still alive. Bad Boy Records was still on its way to mainstream success. The Newt Gingrich Republican Congress wouldn't be elected until late 1994. The Disney Renaissance was still in the midst of its peak (though there wasn't a new Renaissance film in 1993, people were still excited about Aladdin that year, with the pop version of A Whole New World becoming a Billboard Hot 100 #1 hit, the only Disney song to ever do so, plus there was an extremely popular platformer on the SNES and Genesis based on the movie).

I understand popular culture died for you in 1993, thus marking a huge turning point from your perspective, but I personally think this shift you speak of was really just the year marking the basic end of Bush '41-era influences on popular culture (aka, the point when things no longer felt vaguely 80s).

The first inauguration of Bill Clinton as the 42nd President of the United States took place on January 20, 1993. 1993 was the first year of the core '90s. I know what I'm talking about, thank you.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Baltimoreianon11/07/15 at 7:46 am

It's obviously a mid year. Gangsta rap was still popular with Tupac (despite being killed in September that year) and Biggie. The Super Nintendo and Sega Genesis was still in full action despite taking its legs later in the year. Those are like two examples on how it was a mid 90s year.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon11/07/15 at 8:19 am

The first inauguration of Bill Clinton as the 42nd President of the United States took place on January 20, 1993. 1993 was the first year of the core '90s. I know what I'm talking about, thank you.

Yeah, well the President of the United States isn't everything. I'll respect your opinion if you respect mine and others'. Stop preaching your personal definitions of year boundaries like they're the absolute truth. It's just cultural changes, and culture is extremely multi-faceted, so the starting and ending points are necessarily going to vary by person. My own belief of the mid-90s beginning around early-mid 1994 isn't any superior to anybody else's input here, and neither is your January 20, 1993 starting point. There are plenty of things from 1993 that can be easily interpreted as either "early 90s" or "mid-90s." Not all popular culture is contingent with the inauguration of a new president; in fact, most of it isn't.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:bchris02on11/07/15 at 4:07 pm

The Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers were not around from January of 1993 onward, so I do not think of them as definitive pop culture phenomenons of the 'core '90s'. It was the 21 Jump Street effect with the Power Rangers. They were introduced IN the mid '90s, blew up in 1994, and it had a "sister series" towards the end of that era. The series really jumped the shark in the second year of the late '90s, but it was still there from start to finish in that period.

In my opinion, Power Rangers peaked in 1996 with the third season of MMPR and then Power Rangers Zeo that fall. Power Rangers Zeo is very underrated in my opinion, and was just as good as the originally MMPR if not better. It explored more mature themes as the show was growing up with the kids who were the original fans since the beginning. The show really jumped the shark in 1997 when they became Turbo.

I definitely consider MMPR a mid-90s phenomenon. If you were a kid during those years, the show was very significant. In the late '90s it was still on but many of the original fans were no longer watching and none of the original cast was still on it.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon11/07/15 at 4:13 pm

In my opinion, Power Rangers peaked in 1996 with the third season of MMPR and then Power Rangers Zeo that fall. Power Rangers Zeo is very underrated in my opinion, and was just as good as the originally MMPR if not better. It explored more mature themes as the show was growing up with the kids who were the original fans since the beginning. The show really jumped the shark in 1997 when they became Turbo.

I definitely consider MMPR a mid-90s phenomenon. If you were a kid during those years, the show was very significant. In the late '90s it was still on but many of the original fans were no longer watching and none of the original cast was still on it.

Apparently, none of that matters because Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers wasn't on TV on January 20, 1993, and even when it did come out later that year, it was "for the late 90s."

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/07/15 at 5:20 pm

Yeah, well the President of the United States isn't everything. I'll respect your opinion if you respect mine and others'. Stop preaching your personal definitions of year boundaries like they're the absolute truth.

Sorry to gloat, but they are the absolute truth. Some people, including yourself, just prefer not to see it that way.

Both the animated and the live-action Bill and Ted shows were off the air before my 1993 calendar went up.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on11/07/15 at 5:22 pm

Overall, it's more mid 90s, but you can make a strong argument that the late part of the year was more late 90s.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/07/15 at 5:34 pm

Apparently, none of that matters because Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers wasn't on TV on January 20, 1993, and even when it did come out later that year, it was "for the late 90s."

So, according to you, Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers merchandise was not in stores during the winter to spring seasons of 1996? I'm sorry to tell you this, but you're wrong on that account.

The first incarnation of the Power Rangers was the best out of all of them, but it was not the last one remembered by children of the 1990s. That honor goes to Power Rangers in Space (1998-1999).

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/07/15 at 5:39 pm

Overall, it's more mid 90s, but you can make a strong argument that the late part of the year was more late 90s.

The winter to spring seasons of 1993: Strong mid-'90s atmosphere made up of all of the new shows, inventions, and musicians introduced in the early '90s.Aladdin is everyone's favorite new movie, X-Men and X-Force action figures are liked by both children and adults alike, grungies (grunge fans) hung out at the bar, Cross Colors were no longer just sold at Merry Go Round stores in the mall, Bill was our new President, and almost everyone was talking about Melrose Place. The first ever movie released in theaters at this time was the American horror comedy film Leprechaun.

Fall of 1993-Very Start of 1996: Transition in full gear.

The winter to spring seasons of 1996: The transition is complete, we're in the late '90s. Leprechaun 3 sat on video rental shelves, White Power Ranger plush dolls were in department stores, sci-fi fans were buying Starlog magazines because the words "X-Files" are on the cover, Tommy Hilfiger clothes were popular on the streets, and most Americans were still anti-Bush voters. 3rd Rock from the Sun premiered on NBC in this time, also. 3rd Rock from the Sun went off of the air on May 22nd of 2001, by the way.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon11/07/15 at 8:01 pm

Sorry to gloat, but they are the absolute truth. Some people, including yourself, just prefer not to see it that way.

You're not even ashamed of how pathetically biased you are, so I rest my case. I honestly kind of pity you because it's obvious you've had a rather difficult personal life since 1993 if you feel the need to shove down your trivial opinions down everybody's throats by making separate statements about single, random, minuscule fads just to prove you're more intelligent than everybody else. I really wish you had access to a time machine so that you could go back and live in 1990 again because it would certainly cause you to feel much happier and make it so that this same, tired fight doesn't have to sabotage every thread about decade sub-eras on this site.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Baltimoreianon11/07/15 at 8:30 pm

Would you say this is a good marker for various cultural 'eras' of the 90s, then:

January 1990- September 1993: Early '90sSeptember 1993 - September 1996: Mid '90sSeptember 1996 - September 1999: Late 90s

I still see the whole year of 1999 to be half 90s and half 2000s. I don't see how most of 1999 is late 90s while late 1999 is the start of the cultural 2000s. What event made it transition to that era?

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/07/15 at 9:24 pm

I still see the whole year of 1999 to be half 90s and half 2000s. I don't see how most of 1999 is late 90s while late 1999 is the start of the cultural 2000s. What event made it transition to that era?

'99 was start of the cultural 2000s from the very beginning. Family Guy first aired on January 31st of that year, after Super Bowl XXXIII. The spirit of 1990 (enclosed in all of the other years of the '90s) was finito by that point. 1999 was its own entity, in other words. All of the new pop culture icons introduced from 1990 to that point were relevant as the '80s and start of 1990 became dated to us.

Here's a timeline:

1978 (true start of the '80s/Star Wars Mania) > > > 1990 (first year of the '90s/ Star Tours opens at Disney-MGM Studios/ The full length Simpsons episodes with the opening theme premieres) >>> 1999 (Y2K times begin/ Fox is now the home to primetime cartoons/"Osama Bin Laden feared to be planning a terrorist attack" (CNN)) >>> 2011 (first year of the 2010s, Osama Bin Laden was killed by US Forces/ The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo is shown in theaters) >>> 2020 (???)

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/08/15 at 12:02 am

'99 was start of the cultural 2000s from the very beginning. Family Guy first aired on January 31st of that year, after Super Bowl XXXIII. The spirit of 1990 (enclosed in all of the other years of the '90s) was finito by that point. 1999 was its own entity, in other words. All of the new pop culture icons introduced from 1990 to that point were relevant as the '80s and start of 1990 became dated to us.

Here's a timeline:

1978 (true start of the '80s/Star Wars Mania) > > > 1990 (first year of the '90s/ Star Tours opens at Disney-MGM Studios/ The full length Simpsons episodes with the opening theme premieres) >>> 1999 (Y2K times begin/ Fox is now the home to primetime cartoons/"Osama Bin Laden feared to be planning a terrorist attack" (CNN)) >>> 2011 (first year of the 2010s, Osama Bin Laden was killed by US Forces/ The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo is shown in theaters) >>> 2020 (???)

Wait... What!?

I thought you said that 1993 was when society started walking away from 1990. Now the culture of 1990 lasted until 1999? And if that's the case, why don't you like anything 1993-onward then?

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/08/15 at 12:29 am

Wait... What!?

I thought you said that 1993 was when society started walking away from 1990. Now the culture of 1990 lasted until 1999?

That's right, in '93, dayglo green shirts, the English pop rock group Breathe, and the Atari 7800 were all long gone, but films like Robocop 3, Beverly Hills Cop 3, and Lethal Weapon 4 were still sprinkled all throughout the mid and late '90s.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/08/15 at 12:38 am

And if that's the case, why don't you like anything 1993-onward then?

Originality died in the mid '90s.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/08/15 at 12:52 am

That's right, in '93, dayglo green shirts, the English pop rock group Breathe, and the Atari 7800 were all long gone, but films like Robocop 3, Beverly Hills Cop 3, and Lethal Weapon 4 were still sprinkled all throughout the mid and late '90s.

That's a fair point but wouldn't Beverly Hills Cop 3 (I f*cking hate that movie) be more of an example of an 80's holdover? The first two movies came out in '84 and '87. Aside from that stuff, I think 1993 onward had a pretty different feel than 1990-1992. We must not forget what happened on that very day of March 8th, 1993. The day that changed the 90's forever: the premier of Beavis and Butthead. That is the beginning of the true 90's.

Originality died in the mid '90s.

Oh, come on! You don't think Fred Durst's band of Yo Yo Hip Hoppers was original? It was a unique synthesis of the rap music and the metal music that appealed to that of the urban youth. Hot Dog Flavored Starfish: A masterpiece of many wonders.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/08/15 at 1:24 am

That's a fair point but wouldn't Beverly Hills Cop 3 (I f*cking hate that movie) be more of an example of an 80's holdover?

That's what I meant by the spirit of 1990. Beverly Hills Cop 3 would fit right in with other '80s movie sequels in theaters if it were released in 1990. There was an anti-'80s movement in the mid '90s, but things introduced in the '80s were all but gone until 1999. That's what makes the '90s the '90s. Once the "'80s holdovers" (the '80s were really one large void where the '90s pop-culture institutions were born) disappeared, the '90s were over completely.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon11/08/15 at 1:42 am

Oh, come on! You don't think Fred Durst's band of Yo Yo Hip Hoppers was original? It was a unique synthesis of the rap music and the metal music that appealed to that of the urban youth. Hot Dog Flavored Starfish: A masterpiece of many wonders.

Rage Against the Machine, Public Enemy, Beastie Boys, Cypress Hill, and Run-D.M.C. had already mastered rap/rock several years before Durst and company burst onto MTV. The only difference is that those groups had thoughtful and genuine things to say, whereas Durst was just a 12-year old kid in a grownup's body who thrived off of attention (Re-Arranged is a good song, though).

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/08/15 at 8:54 am

That's what I meant by the spirit of 1990. Beverly Hills Cop 3 would fit right in with other '80s movie sequels in theaters if it were released in 1990. There was an anti-'80s movement in the mid '90s, but things introduced in the '80s were all but gone until 1999. That's what makes the '90s the '90s. Once the "'80s holdovers" (the '80s were really one large void where the '90s pop-culture institutions were born) disappeared, the '90s were over completely.

If that's true, then how is 1978-1990 the 80's? Wouldn't 1978-1998 be the entire 90's?

Rage Against the Machine, Public Enemy, Beastie Boys, Cypress Hill, and Run-D.M.C. had already mastered rap/rock several years before Durst and company burst onto MTV. The only difference is that those groups had thoughtful and genuine things to say, whereas Durst was just a 12-year old kid in a grownup's body who thrived off of attention (Re-Arranged is a good song, though).

Uh... dude... You know that I was kidding, right? I lived through the era, I know what bands came out at the time.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/08/15 at 11:14 am

If that's true, then how is 1978-1990 the 80's? Wouldn't 1978-1998 be the entire 90's?

From 1978 to 1990, characters like Robocop were only being introduced for the '90s. The inferior sequels and TV shows appeared in the 1990 to 1999 timeframe. That's what seperates the two periods. Movies like Ghostbusters 2 were far better sequels than Beverly Hills Cop 3.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/08/15 at 12:01 pm

From 1978 to 1990, characters like Robocop were only being introduced for the '90s. The inferior sequels and TV shows appeared in the 1990 to 1999 timeframe. That's what seperates the two periods. Movies like Ghostbusters 2 were far better sequels than Beverly Hills Cop 3.

Yeah, Beverly Hills Cop 3 was a load of sh*t. If you think that 1990-1999 had inferior TV shows and sequels then why is 1990 your favorite year?

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:SpyroKevon11/08/15 at 1:17 pm

To respond to the topic, 1996 was no question a Mid 90s year. I barely remember 1996, but the days I do remember felt cure 90s. 1997 felt completely different and carefree.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on11/08/15 at 1:31 pm

I still see the whole year of 1999 to be half 90s and half 2000s. I don't see how most of 1999 is late 90s while late 1999 is the start of the cultural 2000s. What event made it transition to that era?

You could say this as well,fall 1990-summer 1993: early 90sfall 1993-summer 1996: mid 90sfall 1996-summer 1998: late 90sfall 1998-2001/02: millennium period

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/08/15 at 1:49 pm

If you think that 1990-1999 had inferior TV shows and sequels then why is 1990 your favorite year?

'90 had the American version of Super Mario Brothers 3 for the NES, the first Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie, Turtlemania, MTV when it last stood for music television only, the first ever episodes of The Simpsons with the opening theme, the American version of Final Fantasy for the NES, Total Recall, Child's Play 2, Married With Children t-shirts, even more women wearing biker shorts, great singles by artists like Basia, Reebok Twilight Zone Pump, shirts with geckos mating in various Karma Sultra positions, Batmania part 2, and Bartmania.

In short, I loved the strong early '90s atmosphere in 1990.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/08/15 at 1:49 pm

To respond to the topic, 1996 was no question a Mid 90s year. I barely remember 1996, but the days I do remember felt cure 90s. 1997 felt completely different and carefree.

You barely remember 1996, but it's a mid '90s year to you?

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/08/15 at 1:58 pm

You could say this as well,fall 1990-summer 1993: early 90sfall 1993-summer 1996: mid 90sfall 1996-summer 1998: late 90sfall 1998-2001/02: millennium period

'90 was actually an early '90s year from the very start. Entertainment Weekly hit grocery stores for the first time in February of '90. David Dinkins was the first African American mayor of NYC at the beginning of the year. The Simpsons episodes with the Danny Elfman theme were on the air from January 14 of 1990 onward.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:SpyroKevon11/08/15 at 2:21 pm

You barely remember 1996, but it's a mid '90s year to you?

The days I remember I know were the middle of 96. It could have transitioned later on in the year, which I don't remember. I can say Aaliyah's One In A Million transitioned 1996 into the Late 90s since the song sound very 1997. At first I thought it was released in 1997, but it was released in late 1996.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Howardon11/08/15 at 2:32 pm

wrestling's decline in popularity (after the Hogan era, but before the late 90s boom happened)

This was when Hogan turned heel after 1996.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Todd Pettingzooon11/08/15 at 3:05 pm

Predominantly mid.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon11/08/15 at 5:45 pm

Uh... dude... You know that I was kidding, right? I lived through the era, I know what bands came out at the time.

That's what I had hoped, but I thought you liked the mid-90s through the early 2000s for rock music, so your statement was either irrelevant or contradictory in context. Was your point just to mock TheEarly90sGuy for his stubbornly biased absolutes?

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Gdowe1991on11/08/15 at 5:56 pm

1996 was a culturally mid 90s year although some late 90s elements started to emerge late that year, and even late in the year from what I remember I would still consider mostly mid 90s, hell even 1997 felt strongly mid 90s up until the summer of that year.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/08/15 at 7:41 pm

'90 had the American version of Super Mario Brothers 3 for the NES, the first Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie, Turtlemania, MTV when it last stood for music television only, the first ever episodes of The Simpsons with the opening theme, the American version of Final Fantasy for the NES, Total Recall, Child's Play 2, Married With Children t-shirts, even more women wearing biker shorts, great singles by artists like Basia, Reebok Twilight Zone Pump, shirts with geckos mating in various Karma Sultra positions, Batmania part 2, and Bartmania.

In short, I loved the strong early '90s atmosphere in 1990.

Well, then... So would you say that the things that were there in 1990-1992 got worse in 1993-onward or something like that?

That's what I had hoped, but I thought you liked the mid-90s through the early 2000s for rock music, so your statement was either irrelevant or contradictory in context. Was your point just to mock TheEarly90sGuy for his stubbornly biased absolutes?

I've said before that I hated Nu-Metal. Hated it when it was new and still hate it now. It was to mock MC Freddy Durst and his awful rap metal Smash Mouth music because I heard him on the radio today.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on11/08/15 at 7:53 pm

This was when Hogan turned heel after 1996.

Yup Hogans heel turn and Austin's 3:16 speech started the late 90s and early 00s wrestling boom.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:bchris02on11/08/15 at 7:58 pm

The first incarnation of the Power Rangers was the best out of all of them, but it was not the last one remembered by children of the 1990s. That honor goes to Power Rangers in Space (1998-1999).

Power Rangers In Space was popular enough to save the show (which was going to be cancelled after Turbo), but it was nowhere near as popular was the original MMPR and Power Rangers Zeo were. In fall 1998, Pokemon started to take off and that is definitely the kids show that defined the late '90s, much moreso than Power Rangers.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/08/15 at 10:53 pm

Power Rangers In Space was popular enough to save the show (which was going to be cancelled after Turbo), but it was nowhere near as popular was the original MMPR and Power Rangers Zeo were. In fall 1998, Pokemon started to take off and that is definitely the kids show that defined the late '90s, much moreso than Power Rangers.

Pokemon defined the '99 to '02 era, whereas the Power Rangers were a very '96 thing.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/08/15 at 11:08 pm

Well, then... So would you say that the things that were there in 1990-1992 got worse in 1993-onward or something like that?

Most definitely.

Things like Robocop 3 killed off the series permenantly. The Simpsons really took a nosedive when Homer lost major IQ points and celebrities began making guest appearances on the show. Remember when Homer said Batman's a scientist in the monorail episode? That was only the beginning, it got much worse as time went on. They ran it into the ground to the point where no one around me watches The Simpsons anymore.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/08/15 at 11:18 pm

I've said before that I hated Nu-Metal. Hated it when it was new and still hate it now. It was to mock MC Freddy Durst and his awful rap metal Smash Mouth music because I heard him on the radio today.

Ugh, that dreadful Nookie song comes to mind. I can't believe both pre-teens and teenagers alike took them seriously in 1999. What were they thinking?!

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/09/15 at 12:00 am

What do you guys think?

Most people don't know the mid '90s from their elbows.

Treasure Trolls, the TenPearl Jam t-shirts, everything Problem Child (TV series/ third movie), and Jamie Walters' short-lived popularity were all gone by the start of 1996.

Too many folks mistake the pop culture INTRODUCED IN THE MID '90S for "mid '90 pop culture". So, with that in mind, '96 was predominately "mid '90s" to them in the way 1990 was "the last year of the late '80s" to some individuals (despite the fact that we called it the start of the early '90s at the time).

The cult movie Clueless is a good zeitgeist flick from that time, in my opinion. The looks in that movie were all gone in 1996.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/09/15 at 12:10 am

1996 was a culturally mid 90s year although some late 90s elements started to emerge late that year, and even late in the year from what I remember I would still consider mostly mid 90s, hell even 1997 felt strongly mid 90s up until the summer of that year.

Wow, you were 5 by the end of 1996, yet you know it was culturally a mid '90s year? Intriguing. :o

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:mqg96on11/09/15 at 12:27 am

Wow, you were 5 by the end of 1996, yet you know it was culturally a mid '90s year? Intriguing. :o

Well he did start Kindergarten that year (which is mandatory school), so I wouldn't be surprised if he remembered some of the pop culture from a kid's viewpoint. 1996 is when I was born ;D so I'll just leave everyone's opinions on that year up to y'all!

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/09/15 at 12:34 am

Most definitely.

Things like Robocop 3 killed off the series permenantly. The Simpsons really took a nosedive when Homer lost major IQ points and celebrities began making guest appearances on the show. Remember when Homer said Batman's a scientist in the monorail episode? That was only the beginning, it got much worse as time went on. They ran it into the ground to the point where no one around me watches The Simpsons anymore.

Yeah, Robocop 3 was pretty bad but I liked the Simpsons up until, I dunno, 2004/2005 or so. I didn't really keep track of what seasons I was watching or anything like that. Those early Moe jokes were the funniest, though! Things like Hue G. Rection, Hans Jerkinoff and Homersexual still make me laugh.

Ugh, that dreadful Nookie song comes to mind. I can't believe both pre-teens and teenagers alike took them seriously in 1999. What were they thinking?!

"i did it fo tha nookie nookie nookie so u can take dat kookie n stick it up yo YEAH!"

I'm glad that one didn't come on but the song that did play on the radio today was Rollin'. The chorus is nothing more than a sh*tty Blues Brothers rip off. I remember around 1998-1999 all the "homies" (as they called themselves) at my high school started wearing baggy cargos and backwards red baseball caps just like their hero MC Freddy Durst. Linkin Park is just as bad. How could they the most monotone rapper of all time? And their singer! Oh god, he sounds all soft and sensitive just like a sissy Backstreet Boy!

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon11/09/15 at 1:08 am

Most definitely.

Things like Robocop 3 killed off the series permenantly. The Simpsons really took a nosedive when Homer lost major IQ points and celebrities began making guest appearances on the show. Remember when Homer said Batman's a scientist in the monorail episode? That was only the beginning, it got much worse as time went on. They ran it into the ground to the point where no one around me watches The Simpsons anymore.

"Batman's a scientist" was the beginning of The Simpsons' decline? That was one of the most memorable lines from one of the best episodes of the series, a poke at how society overlooks obscurely mentioned details that can play huge roles in the right context. The true downfall of The Simpsons began with The Principal and the Pauper, which was premised on insulting shock value rather than intelligently subversive social commentary, and the show fully plummeted about two years later. It was also around the time The Principal and the Pauper aired on television and Mike Scully subsequently became the new show-runner that guest stars began truly flooding the show without sincere purpose.

Too many folks mistake the pop culture INTRODUCED IN THE MID '90S for "mid '90 pop culture". So, with that in mind, '96 was predominately "mid '90s" to them in the way 1990 was "the last year of the late '80s" to some individuals (despite the fact that we called it the start of the early '90s at the time).

That still doesn't account though for why there was so much more cultural change during the 1996-1997 school year than the 1995-1996 school year. I'm taking you also consider Alanis Morissette, Oasis, Tragic Kingdom-era No Doubt, and Windows '95 to be late 90s culture even though they all came out in 1995 and peaked strictly around 1996?

The cult movie Clueless is a good zeitgeist flick from that time, in my opinion. The looks in that movie were all gone in 1996.

Well he did start Kindergarten that year (which is mandatory school), so I wouldn't be surprised if get remembered some of the pop culture from a kid's viewpoint. 1996 is when I was born ;D so I'll just leave everyone's opinions on that year up to y'all!

Birth year shouldn't matter that much if you can still expose yourself to a past era's culture and gather input from others. TheEarly90sGuy only mentions his age as an excuse to pass his opinions as the absolute truth when he doesn't have a consistent argument or agree to take anybody seriously outside of his personal confidantes. And anyway, you're dealing with somebody who adamantly believes the year of Saturday Night Fever, Grease, disco's peak, and John Travolta was undoubtedly the 80s.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/09/15 at 9:42 am

That still doesn't account though for why there was so much more cultural change during the 1996-1997 school year than the 1995-1996 school year. I'm taking you also consider Alanis Morissette, Oasis, Tragic Kingdom-era No Doubt, and Windows '95 to be late '90s culture even though they all came out in 1995 and peaked strictly around 1996?

There was more cultural change during the 1990-1991 school year than the 1989-1990 school year, also. The year 1997 was closer on the timeline to 1999 than 1996. Shows like 3rd Rock from the Sun still aired from January 9th of 1996 to May 22nd of 2001. While we were living in the mid '90s, shows that peaked in 1999 did not exist.

The troll doll shirts, rave hats, and two-tone shortalls all vanished by that time.

TheEarly90sGuy only mentions his age as an excuse to pass his opinions as the absolute truth when he doesn't have a consistent argument or agree to take anybody seriously outside of his personal confidantes.

I don't have a consistent argument?! :o

And anyway, you're dealing with somebody who adamantly believes the year of Saturday Night Fever, Grease, disco's peak, and John Travolta was undoubtedly the 80s.

You are aware that Funkytown spent four weeks at number one on the Billboard Hot 100 from May 31st of 1980 to June 7th of 1980, right? ::)

Italo Disco, Mutant Disco, and Euro Disco were still present in "actual '80s" years along with movies set in the late '50s and early '60s. '78, in particular, brought us Garfield and I can remember fully well seeing an onslaught of Garfield merchandise at department stores in the spring of 1990.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/09/15 at 9:47 am

Birth year shouldn't matter that much if you can still expose yourself to a past era's culture and gather input from others.

Word of mouth isn't a reliable source to go on most of the time.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on11/09/15 at 10:04 am

Well he did start Kindergarten that year (which is mandatory school), so I wouldn't be surprised if he remembered some of the pop culture from a kid's viewpoint. 1996 is when I was born ;D so I'll just leave everyone's opinions on that year up to y'all!

Well, even though you were born that year, you can still give your own opinions on the year.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Howardon11/09/15 at 2:43 pm

Yup Hogans heel turn and Austin's 3:16 speech started the late 90s and early 00s wrestling boom.

wrestling started to get good after that.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon11/09/15 at 4:53 pm

I don't have a consistent argument?! :o

You're consistent in which years marked the starting point of their respective decades (1978 for the 80s, 1990 for the 90s, 1999 for the 2000s, and 2011 for the 2010s), but all that you ever do to justify them is compare individual fads from one starting point to the following starting point, a process which, as I've already gone over with you before, can apply between any two years. 1979 and 1989 both had Star Trek Movies, 2001 and 2011 both had Harry Potter films, 1989 and 1997 both had Batman movies, 1990 and 2003 both had Ninja Turtles media, 1980 and 1989 both had Friday the 13th films,

Also,

Italo Disco, Mutant Disco, and Euro Disco were still present in "actual '80s" years along with movies set in the late '50s and early '60s. '78, in particular, brought us Garfield and I can remember fully well seeing an onslaught of Garfield merchandise at department stores in the spring of 1990.

I thought the start of 1990 was the absolute beginning of the 90s? In that case, why was there still an "onslaught" of merchandise for a product you consider 80s? I thought this stuff was supposed to have all disappeared by that point.

Italo disco, etc., were not mainstream in the United States until 1984, when songs like Cruel Summer and Self Control became popular. Artists like the Bee Gees, Donna Summer, Chic, and Earth, Wind & Fire were still the proponents of disco in 1978, even though they faded from significance after the early 80s, by which point they were already evolving their style away from regular disco, anyway.

Why do you constantly bring up Garfield, along with Star Wars, as the definitive trends of the 1980s? Both of those franchises have continued to be popular well beyond 1990, and most people don't really even mention them when trying to define the 80s as a whole. Ronald Reagan wouldn't be President of the United States until 1981, and MTV wouldn't launch until the same year. In the United States, the only new wave group popular by 1978 was The Cars, whose first album sounded much more primitive and less synthesized than their later work, anyway. 80s-style perms and mullets were still several years from being standard.

The troll doll shirts, rave hats, and two-tone shortalls all vanished by that time.

You didn't even address a single thing that I just mentioned, all you did was mention little, obscure things that probably mattered 10,000 times more to you than Coolio, Alanis Morissette, and Donkey Kong Country as justification for early 1996 being a completely different world from late 1995. This drives my point home about not having a consistent argument because you only draw brief attention to the little things you care about while acting as though all the stuff important to 98% of people at the time didn't even exist.

You are aware that Funkytown spent four weeks at number one on the Billboard Hot 100 from May 31st of 1980 to June 7th of 1980, right? ::)

It was the last true disco song to achieve mainstream popularity, after which it was overtaken by post-disco acts like Kool & the Gang and adult Michael Jackson. 80s culture had still not entirely formed that year - it was a time of transition - so it makes perfect sense that there'd be a song or two that sounded like it belong in the 70s (in fact, the song itself is actually from 1979).

Word of mouth isn't a reliable source to go on most of the time.

Then why is your opinion superior to everybody else's? If word of mouth is useless, then that means you have nobody else to confirm your opinion as being the truth, further exposing the contradictions in your logic. You're certainly not the only person who lived to see the 80s and 90s. Most people will tell you that the former hinged on things like Reagan, new wave, mullets, perms, and MTV, not Garfield and Star Wars. Most people know that the mid-90s were all about Alanis Morissette, Beavis & Butthead, Coolio, Oasis, the Donkey Kong Country Trilogy, and Windows 95, all of which were still huge in 1996; the so-called lack of troll dolls, rave hats, two-tone shortalls that you speak of hardly affected the dominant population; there were just as many fads that died off during the 1996/1997 school year (Macarena, anyone?).

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:bchris02on11/09/15 at 9:43 pm

The sound of 1996

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Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/09/15 at 9:55 pm

You're consistent in which years marked the starting point of their respective decades (1978 for the 80s, 1990 for the 90s, 1999 for the 2000s, and 2011 for the 2010s), but all that you ever do to justify them is compare individual fads from one starting point to the following starting point, a process which, as I've already gone over with you before, can apply between any two years. 1979 and 1989 both had Star Trek Movies, 2001 and 2011 both had Harry Potter films, 1989 and 1997 both had Batman movies, 1990 and 2003 both had Ninja Turtles media, 1980 and 1989 both had Friday the 13th films

I see where you are coming from, but Star Trek 5: The Final Frontier went on to be the 21st best-selling title for the Laserdisc player in 1990. The 2011 fantasy film Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows was the eighth and final installment in the film series. Warner Bros. purchased the rights to the Harry Potter movies for $2 million shortly after Pottermania hit in 1999. The world broadcast premiere of Batman and Robin on TBS was shown in 1999. The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles of 2003 met with turtles of the '90s in the 2009 television film Turtles Forever. Did you know that? The DVD was still in stores at the turn of 2012. Friday the 13th Part VIII: Jason Takes Manhattan was not even released on home video until February 15th of 1990. There is a beginning and end to everything on this earth.

I thought the start of 1990 was the absolute beginning of the 90s? In that case, why was there still an "onslaught" of merchandise for a product you consider 80s? I thought this stuff was supposed to have all disappeared by that point.

Yes, that is correct, the 1990s began on January 1, 1990 . The historical events of the January 1, 1978 to January 1st of 1990 only brought us to that point. Where did I say in any of my posts that culture introduced in 1978, 1979, and a decade after was supposed to be gone by 1990? The American sitcom The Facts of Life and the earliest form of Garfield did disappear before 1990, but Kim Fields was still a celebrity when she appeared in Ultra Slim Fast commercials and Garfield telephones were in stores at that time. True '80s culture like the game show Definition did disappear before 1990, though.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon11/09/15 at 10:28 pm

I see where you are coming from, but Star Trek 5: The Final Frontier went on to be the 21st best-selling title for the Laserdisc player in 1990. The 2011 fantasy film Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows was the eighth and final installment in the film series. Warner Bros. purchased the rights to the Harry Potter movies for $2 million shortly after Pottermania hit in 1999. The world broadcast premiere of Batman and Robin on TBS was shown in 1999. The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles of 2003 met with turtles of the '90s in the 2009 television film Turtles Forever. Did you know that? The DVD was still in stores at the turn of 2012. Friday the 13th Part VIII: Jason Takes Manhattan was not even released on home video until February 15th of 1990. There is a beginning and end to everything on this earth.

Good lord is your logic contrived.

Yes, that is correct, the 1990s began on January 1, 1990 . The historical events of the January 1, 1978 to January 1st of 1990 only brought us to that point. Where did I say in any of my posts that culture introduced in 1978, 1979, and a decade after was supposed to be gone by 1990? The American sitcom The Facts of Life and the earliest form of Garfield did disappear before 1990, but Kim Fields was still a celebrity when she appeared in Ultra Slim Fast commercials and Garfield telephones were in stores at that time. True '80s culture like the game show Definition did disappear before 1990, though.

It's implied that the stuff you mentioned would have ended in 1990 because why else would a bunch of random things from 1978 specifically aim for the year 1990 and not 1991, 1992, 1993, etc.? You make it seem as though the year 1990 was a vital milestone for Star Wars and Garfield, when all it was was just another successful year for the franchises, not the first, nor the last. I don't care that Star Wars and Garfield merchandise were still in stores by 1990; there was also a ton of Garfield merchandise in 2004 when the live action Bill Murray film came out, and Star Wars merchandise is more prevalent now than ever thanks to the anticipation for Episode VII. In that sense, you could just as easily say 1978 was leading us either to 2004 or 2015.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/10/15 at 2:45 pm

I see where you are coming from, but Star Trek 5: The Final Frontier went on to be the 21st best-selling title for the Laserdisc player in 1990. The 2011 fantasy film Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows was the eighth and final installment in the film series. Warner Bros. purchased the rights to the Harry Potter movies for $2 million shortly after Pottermania hit in 1999. The world broadcast premiere of Batman and Robin on TBS was shown in 1999. The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles of 2003 met with turtles of the '90s in the 2009 television film Turtles Forever. Did you know that? The DVD was still in stores at the turn of 2012. Friday the 13th Part VIII: Jason Takes Manhattan was not even released on home video until February 15th of 1990. There is a beginning and end to everything on this earth.

Yes, that is correct, the 1990s began on January 1, 1990 . The historical events of the January 1, 1978 to January 1st of 1990 only brought us to that point. Where did I say in any of my posts that culture introduced in 1978, 1979, and a decade after was supposed to be gone by 1990? The American sitcom The Facts of Life and the earliest form of Garfield did disappear before 1990, but Kim Fields was still a celebrity when she appeared in Ultra Slim Fast commercials and Garfield telephones were in stores at that time. True '80s culture like the game show Definition did disappear before 1990, though.

Wait, I thought you said the 80's had no culture or identity and that everything from the 80's was meant for 1990.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/10/15 at 6:57 pm

Wait, I thought you said the 80's had no culture or identity and that everything from the 80's was meant for 1990.

The year 1979 and the actual '80s Calendar years were the thin line between 1978 and 1990, nothing more and nothing less.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/10/15 at 6:59 pm

Good lord is your logic contrived.

To you and your ilk, I imagine it is.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/10/15 at 7:23 pm

The year 1979 and the actual '80s Calendar years were the thin line between 1978 and 1990, nothing more and nothing less.

How can the 80's be a thin line if the year 1990 lasted until 1999? There'd have to be a culture in the previous era to distinguish the two. The 80's wasn't just nothingness and if everything from the 80's was meant for 1990 then the spirit of 1978/1979 would of lasted until 1999 wouldn't it?

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Gdowe1991on11/10/15 at 8:52 pm

Wow, you were 5 by the end of 1996, yet you know it was culturally a mid '90s year? Intriguing. :oI may not of been fully in depth of culture at that age at the time, but that doesn't mean that I can't somewhat remember the atmosphere of that time.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/10/15 at 10:08 pm

How can the 80's be a thin line if the year 1990 lasted until 1999? There'd have to be a culture in the previous era to distinguish the two. The 80's wasn't just nothingness and if everything from the 80's was meant for 1990 then the spirit of 1978/1979 would of lasted until 1999 wouldn't it?

I do not recall saying the year 1990, itself, lasted until 1999. The spirit of that time (women wearing crimped hair, people producing sequels to films that came out in the '80s in theaters, young men donning surfer tribal stripped shirts, and teenagers saying peace before leaving to go somewhere) died a cruel death in 1999.

The spirit or 1978 (women wearing colored plastic hoop earrings, young punk fans getting 6 inch high Mohawks, people watching the new American Bandstand, and older men growing out their mustaches) was gone by the start of 1990. The only things that remained from 1978 in 1990 was the some of the new pop culture like the TV show Dallas. That is what distinguishes the two periods.

1979-1989: Lifespan to the spirit of '781991-1998: Lifespan to the spirit of '90

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/10/15 at 10:11 pm

I may not of been fully in depth of culture at that age at the time, but that doesn't mean that I can't somewhat remember the atmosphere of that time.

What's late '90s culture to you?

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/10/15 at 10:30 pm

I do not recall saying the year 1990, itself, lasted until 1999. The spirit of that time (women wearing crimped hair, people producing sequels to films that came out in the '80s in theaters, young men donning surfer tribal stripped shirts, and teenagers saying peace before leaving to go somewhere) died a cruel death in 1999.

The spirit or 1978 (women wearing colored plastic hoop earrings, young punk fans getting 6 inch high Mohawks, people watching the new American Bandstand, and older men growing out their mustaches) was gone by the start of 1990. The only things that remained from 1978 in 1990 was the some of the new pop culture like the TV show Dallas. That is what distinguishes the two periods.

1979-1989: Lifespan to the spirit of '781991-1998: Lifespan to the spirit of '90

I started going to Punk shows in 1996 and kids still had huge 6 inch Mohawks. That has never died out. Even today kids still do that. Nobody I knew ever said "peace" either. I don't remember 1990 having much in common with 1993-1997. Sure, a few movie sequels came out but movie sequels don't really mean much. Clothing wise, nobody dressed in 3/4 shorts or baggy dickies until 1993/1994. Same with fitted hats. The Grunge style (long hair, scruffy face, flannel) was big from 1990-1995 and started to decline in 1996/1997 to the point where in 1998 nobody had that style anymore. American Reunion came out in 2012 but that doesn't mean the spirit of 1999 lasted until then. And what about Jurassic World and Terminator Genesys? Those are sequels to movies from the 80's and 90's, doesn't mean the spirit of 1978 or 1990 lasted until this year. Also, Christmas Vacation 2 came out in 2003, 4 years after 1999. That is a sequel to an 80's franchise. And what about the Phantom Menace? That is a prequel to a 70's/80's franchise. The spirit of '90 died around the same time as Kurt.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:bchris02on11/10/15 at 10:36 pm

I think this is ridiculous.

Sequels, many times poorly received, can come out years if not a decade after a successful original. For instance, I look at Men in Black as a '90s thing, despite a pretty awful sequel in 2002 and a better one in 2012. The original was the most popular and it came out in 1997.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/10/15 at 11:00 pm

I think this is ridiculous.

Sequels, many times poorly received, can come out years if not a decade after a successful original. For instance, I look at Men in Black as a '90s thing, despite a pretty awful sequel in 2002 and a better one in 2012. The original was the most popular and it came out in 1997.

Exactly my point! Sequels are a terrible way to determine cultural eras! We just had Jurassic Park and Terminator sequels come out this year. Does that mean we're still in the 80's/90's? No way!

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/10/15 at 11:44 pm

Exactly my point! Sequels are a terrible way to determine cultural eras! We just had Jurassic Park and Terminator sequels come out this year. Does that mean we're still in the 80's/90's? No way!

Jurassic World and Terminator Genisys have no ties to the original films like Judgement Day and Jurassic Park 3 did. The Terminator franchise is to the 21st century thus far what the stereoscope was to most decades of the 20th century. Terminator Genisys is not in the same caliber as Judgement Day, it's more along the lines of Terminator 3, only worse.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon11/11/15 at 12:24 am

Jurassic World and Terminator Genisys have no ties to the original films like Judgement Day and Jurassic Park 3. The Terminator franchise is to the 21st century thus far what the stereoscope was to most decades of the 20th century. Terminator Genisys is not in the same caliber as Judgement Day, it's more along the lines of Terminator 3, only worse.

Then what gives Jaws 3D and Jaws: The Revenge such a free pass when they both sucked major arse and the original 1975 film was the only truly good entry in the series?

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:bchris02on11/11/15 at 12:39 am

I really can see where Early 90s guy is coming from. If I was a child of the 70s, teen in the 80s, and young adult in the early 90s I would probably feel the same way he does. I probably would have hated the cultural shift that happened in 1992 and had a distaste for everything afterwards. In fact, my parents are exactly that way. They withdrew from pop culture after 1992, especially music. I can somewhat relate to that with 2013. I just don't enjoy today's culture as well as I did the late '00s and early '10s. I don't hate it though and do find things to like about it.

I still think movie sequels are a terrible way to mark cultural eras, especially when the sequel doesn't have near the cultural impact the original did.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon11/11/15 at 12:52 am

I really can see where Early 90s guy is coming from. If I was a child of the 70s, teen in the 80s, and young adult in the early 90s I would probably feel the same way he does. I probably would have hated the cultural shift that happened in 1992 and had a distaste for everything afterwards. In fact, my parents are exactly that way. They withdrew from pop culture after 1992, especially music. I can somewhat relate to that with 2013. I just don't enjoy today's culture as well as I did the late '00s and early '10s. I don't hate it though and do find things to like about it.

Just because you think pop culture has sucked after a certain point doesn't mean you have to force down your own singular, biased world view down everybody's throats as if they're a bunch of braindead idiots, even when it means tying an entire decade to a year you were too young to remember at the time.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/11/15 at 5:03 am

Jurassic World and Terminator Genisys have no ties to the original films like Judgement Day and Jurassic Park 3. The Terminator franchise is to the 21st century thus far what the stereoscope was to most decades of the 20th century. Terminator Genisys is not in the same caliber as Judgement Day, it's more along the lines of Terminator 3, only worse.

What the.... Really? They're still sequels to movies from the 80's and 90's regardless of how you view them.

Just because you think pop culture has sucked after a certain point doesn't mean you have to force down your own singular, biased world view down everybody's throats as if they're a bunch of braindead idiots, even when it means tying an entire decade to a year you were too young to remember at the time.

I just wish his theories made a little bit of sense!

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/11/15 at 12:20 pm

I really can see where Early 90s guy is coming from. If I was a child of the 70s, teen in the 80s, and young adult in the early 90s I would probably feel the same way he does. I probably would have hated the cultural shift that happened in 1992 and had a distaste for everything afterwards. In fact, my parents are exactly that way. They withdrew from pop culture after 1992, especially music. I can somewhat relate to that with 2013. I just don't enjoy today's culture as well as I did the late '00s and early '10s. I don't hate it though and do find things to like about it.

I still think movie sequels are a terrible way to mark cultural eras, especially when the sequel doesn't have near the cultural impact the original did.

Thank you for your kind words. You are very correct, sequels do not have the same cultural impact on society the way the originals do. The year 1990 consisted of Back to the Future 2 (left theaters in February of the year), National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation (last seen in January of '90), Back to the Future 3Gremlins 2: The New Batch, Die Hard 2: Die Harder, Predator 2, Robocop 2, Another 48 Hours, Young Guns 2, Bride of the Re-Animator, Child's Play 2, Leatherface: Texas Chainsaw Massacre III, The Exorcist 3, Delta Force 2, Rocky 5, and Maniac Cop 2. That speaks volumes for itself. In a perfect world, a revised version of Gremlins 2 would have been in theaters in 1987,1988, or 1989. That is all I'm saying. :)

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on11/11/15 at 12:23 pm

Then what gives Jaws 3D and Jaws: The Revenge such a free pass when they both sucked major arse and the original 1975 film was the only truly good entry in the series?

I thought JAWS 2 was decent.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/11/15 at 12:30 pm

I just wish his theories made a little bit of sense!

They do. I guess we just have different perspectives on things.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/11/15 at 12:37 pm

Then what gives Jaws 3D and Jaws: The Revenge such a free pass when they both sucked major arse and the original 1975 film was the only truly good entry in the series?

For starters, they were made in the same century as their predecessors. CGI used in Terminator Gensisys pales in comparison to that of Judgement Day.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/11/15 at 12:47 pm

They do. I guess we just have different perspectives on things.

Yeah, I guess so but your wording on a lot of these things is pretty confusing sometimes, dude. You do make a lot of sense at times and there is some stuff I agree with but other times, I don't know what you're talking about.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:bchris02on11/11/15 at 1:26 pm

Once again, movie sequels are a terrible way to define cultural eras and there are very few instances where the sequel has anywhere close to the cultural impact of the original. This is especially true if its been several years since the original film or if the film was never intended to have a sequel. The one exception in recent years is Jurassic World. Men in Black 3 was a great flashback in 2012 but it in no way had the cultural impact that the original Men in Black did back in 1997 and I would in no way say we are/were still in the '90s because because of that sequel.

The Back to the Future trilogy is primarily a late '80s thing. You had the original in 1985, and then BTTF 2 in 1989 and BTTF3 in 1990. The trilogy fits in well with the era and really captures its feel. It was always intended to be a trilogy though. The BTTF sequels were not a cheap cash grab that so many sequels are.

I wish Early90sGuy would look at the broader picture.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/11/15 at 10:52 pm

Once again, movie sequels are a terrible way to define cultural eras and there are very few instances where the sequel has anywhere close to the cultural impact of the original. This is especially true if its been several years since the original film or if the film was never intended to have a sequel. The one exception in recent years is Jurassic World. Men in Black 3 was a great flashback in 2012 but it in no way had the cultural impact that the original Men in Black did back in 1997 and I would in no way say we are/were still in the '90s because because of that sequel.

Should humanity act as if most sequels do not exist because they're usually poor follow ups to the first film? Everything leads to something else in this world. I do not know about you, but I do not want to live in a world where Terminator 2: Judgement Day does not exist.

I do not remember saying that we were still in the 1990s because Men in Black 3 was in theaters back in 2012.

The Back to the Future trilogy is primarily a late '80s thing. You had the original in 1985, and then BTTF 2 in 1989 and BTTF3 in 1990. The trilogy fits in well with the era and really captures its feel. It was always intended to be a trilogy though. The BTTF sequels were not a cheap cash grab that so many sequels are.

I wish Early90sGuy would look at the broader picture.

How is the Back to the Future trilogy "primarily a late '80s thing" when only one film was shown in theaters in 1989? It did not leave theaters by 1990, either. "Ricky! You have a lot of 'splaining to do!"

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:bchris02on11/11/15 at 11:16 pm

How is the Back to the Future trilogy "primarily a late '80s thing" when only one film was shown in theaters in 1989? It did not leave theaters by 1990, either. "Ricky! You have a lot of 'splaining to do!"

1990 was a very '80s year. In fact, I consider 1990 to be the quintessential year of the 1980s. Everything that was the '80s is exemplified in 1990. Everything that happened in the '80s brought us to 1990. The Back to the Future Trilogy was popular from 1985 when the original was released through 1990 when the third installment was released.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:ocarinafan96on11/11/15 at 11:18 pm

1990 was a very '80s year. In fact, I consider 1990 to be the quintessential year of the 1980s. Everything that was the '80s is exemplified in 1990. The Back to the Future Trilogy was popular from 1985 when the original was released through 1990 when the third installment was released.

Wait seriously? Well everybody had different opinions I guess. I think 1984 was the qunitessential year but your free to your own opinion

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:bchris02on11/11/15 at 11:28 pm

Wait seriously? Well everybody had different opinions I guess. I think 1984 was the qunitessential year but your free to your own opinion

I was born in 1985 so I can't comment with firsthand knowledge on the first half of the decade, but for me, everything I knew the '80s to be came to its peak in 1990. Even though I was only 5 at the time, I was very aware of my surroundings and what was popular.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:mqg96on11/12/15 at 12:11 am

I was born in 1985 so I can't comment with firsthand knowledge on the first half of the decade, but for me, everything I knew the '80s to be came to its peak in 1990. Even though I was only 5 at the time, I was very aware of my surroundings and what was popular.

Well I guess us 90's babies feel the same way about confusing the 90's with the early 2000's years then, kinda like how you're saying that real 80's culture had peaked in an early 90's year.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon11/12/15 at 12:17 am

For starters, they were made in the same century as their predecessors. CGI used in Terminator Gensisys pales in comparison to that of Judgement Day.

Oh please, seriously? If you're going to apply that logic, then I guess all Pokémon games released after Red & Blue have nothing to do with the originals, since they weren't technically from the same century. If the unwanted Jaws sequels being released in the same century as the 1975 original is the best justification you can give to their importance taking precedence over Ronald Reagan, MTV, and Cheers, you have to be joking.

If none of what I just said makes any sense to you, then I'll ask a more straightforward question: what are your personal feelings about Jaws 3D and Jaws: The Revenge? One has some of the worst special effects in motion picture history, the other has such a ridiculous plot that it holds a 0% average rating on Rotten Tomatoes, and both are considered two of the most insultingly horrendous movie sequels of all time. You can't possibly try and act like people were seriously more excited about those things in the 80s than they were about Indiana Jones, Ghostbusters, and Back to the Future.

Should humanity act as if most sequels do not exist because they're usually poor follow ups to the first film? Everything leads to something else in this world. I do not know about you, but I do not want to live in a world where Terminator 2: Judgement Day does not exist.

Terminator 2: Judgement Day was a very, very rare exception in which the sequel surpasses the original in popularity. And while were on the subject of sequels that a lot of people consider superior to the original, what about Toy Story 2 & 3, Return of the King, Spider-Man 2, and X-Men 2? None of the original films they were based on came out in 1999, yet they were all extremely popular when they came out, successfully prolonging the popularity of their respective franchises. You would have to be completely out of your head to categorize the Jaws sequels with Terminator 2 or all of the sequels I listed above.

I do not remember saying that we were still in the 1990s because Men in Black 3 was in theaters back in 2012.

Your logic would necessarily imply that though, unless you're about to make another desperate excuse, like your "these movies weren't made in the 20th century" justification for Terminator 3 through 5 being separate from 1 and 2.

I was born in 1985 so I can't comment with firsthand knowledge on the first half of the decade, but for me, everything I knew the '80s to be came to its peak in 1990. Even though I was only 5 at the time, I was very aware of my surroundings and what was popular.

While I agree 1990 was still mostly an 80s-style year, I think it's a bit of an overstatement to say it was the peak of 80s culture, considering Reagan was no longer President of the United States, house music was becoming popular for the first time, shows like The Simpsons and The Fresh Prince of Bell-Air were on television, Brat Pack comedies were no longer the centerpiece of pop culture (Heathers had come out the year before), the Cold War was technically over even though the USSR still existed, and iconic 80s franchises like Miami Vice, The Transformers, and The Smurfs were long over.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on11/12/15 at 12:29 am

1990 was a very '80s year. In fact, I consider 1990 to be the quintessential year of the 1980s. Everything that was the '80s is exemplified in 1990. Everything that happened in the '80s brought us to 1990. The Back to the Future Trilogy was popular from 1985 when the original was released through 1990 when the third installment was released.

That's a strong argument, that's pushing it! :o And I agree with early 90s guy, Back to the Future was not a late 80s trilogy, since it was from 1985 until 1990. Ronald was no longer in office, quintessential 80s cartoons and even some primetime tv shows were no longer on the air, new wave was done, Berlin Wall had fallen, Turtlemania was in full affect, Fresh prince, In living Color,Tiny Toons and The Simpsons being on the air. NBA was now starting to be centered around MJ instead of Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. etc. etc.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:bchris02on11/12/15 at 10:49 am

Well I guess us 90's babies feel the same way about confusing the 90's with the early 2000's years then, kinda like how you're saying that real 80's culture had peaked in an early 90's year.

I hear that you were born in 1985, but you were still Class of 2004 in high school along with 1986 born's. Do you have a lot of fun memories of being a kid in the early 90's (1990-1993)?

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:bchris02on11/12/15 at 11:55 am

I hear that you were born in 1985, but you were still Class of 2004 in high school along with 1986 born's. Do you have a lot of fun memories of being a kid in the early 90's (1990-1993)?

Yeah the early '90s were a great time to be a kid. SNES/Sega Genesis, MS-DOS PC games, the Disney Renaissance, and Nickelodeon were huge parts of my life. Going to the mall and playing at the arcade was also like being in heaven to me. What I remember most about that era was playing outside, riding my bike, camping, going hunting with my dad, and doing other outdoor stuff.

I didn't really start developing my own musical tastes apart from what my parents listened to until around 1995.

Indeed, that means you would have missed out on things like Wham!, Atari, Journey, Lionel Richie, The A Team, Magnum, P.I., Brat Pack teen flicks, and cartoons like The Transformers, Care Bears, and Inspector Gadget, all of which were integral parts of early 80s and core 80s popular culture.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on11/12/15 at 7:54 pm

Indeed, that means you would have missed out on things like Wham!, Atari, Journey, Lionel Richie, The A Team, Magnum, P.I., Brat Pack teen flicks, and cartoons like The Transformers, Care Bears, and Inspector Gadget, all of which were integral parts of early 80s and core 80s popular culture.

Yeah, Chris came of childhood age in the very late 80s. All of that was right before his time. They probably showed reruns of those things in his early childhood probably.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:mqg96on11/12/15 at 8:35 pm

Yeah, Chris came of childhood age in the very late 80s. All of that was right before his time. They probably showed reruns of those things in his early childhood probably.

I wouldn't be surprised if Chris could definitely remember reruns of 80's cartoons were played on Nickelodeon, FOX Kids, or any other syndicated station in the early 90's, kinda like how reruns of 90's cartoons were played on Cartoon Network, Nickelodeon, and Toon Disney for us in the early 2000's.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/12/15 at 8:40 pm

Everything that was the '80s is exemplified in 1990. Everything that happened in the '80s brought us to 1990.

https://i.imgflip.com/m7ibq.jpg

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/12/15 at 8:43 pm

Well I guess us 90's babies feel the same way about confusing the 90's with the early 2000's years then, kinda like how you're saying that real 80's culture had peaked in an early 90's year.

The topics of conversation (1980-1989) were less important than the deal itself (The year 1990).

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/12/15 at 8:46 pm

https://i.imgflip.com/m7ibq.jpg

I knew you'd do something like this once he said that. I just knew it.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/12/15 at 9:33 pm

I knew you'd do something like this once he said that. I just knew it.

It's the truth.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/12/15 at 9:37 pm

It's the truth.

Nuh-uh! Also, didn't you say before your favorite year was 1991? What made you change from 1991 to 1990?

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on11/12/15 at 9:41 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if Chris could definitely remember reruns of 80's cartoons were played on Nickelodeon, FOX Kids, or any other syndicated station in the early 90's, kinda like how reruns of 90's cartoons were played on Cartoon Network, Nickelodeon, and Toon Disney for us in the early 2000's.

Yup, they probably did show reruns of Gi Joe, Transformers, Care Bears, He-Man, Smurphs, Thundercats, and Voltron. Just like they showed reruns of X-MEN the Animated Series, Spiderman The Animated Series,Boinkers, Gargoyles, The Tick, Darkwing Duck, Timon and Pumba, Talespin, Rocko,Ahh Real Monsters, Pinky and the Brain, Anmaniacs, for us.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/12/15 at 9:42 pm

Oh please, seriously? If you're going to apply that logic, then I guess all Pokémon games released after Red & Blue have nothing to do with the originals, since they weren't technically from the same century. If the unwanted Jaws sequels being released in the same century as the 1975 original is the best justification you can give to their importance taking precedence over Ronald Reagan, MTV, and Cheers, you have to be joking.

Cheers ended its 11-season run on May 20, 1993. Children of the '90s fondly remember when MTV played music videos like children of the '80s do. MTV was only launched on August 1, 1981, it did not come into its own, as a network, until the 1990s. Jaws 3-D may have grossed a hundred dollars less than Jaws 2, but many people who were teenagers in that time can recall going to see it on opening weekend. The spirit of '78 is what made the '80s the '80s.

If none of what I just said makes any sense to you, then I'll ask a more straightforward question: what are your personal feelings about Jaws 3D and Jaws: The Revenge? One has some of the worst special effects in motion picture history, the other has such a ridiculous plot that it holds a 0% average rating on Rotten Tomatoes, and both are considered two of the most insultingly horrendous movie sequels of all time.

I'm with you on this one. Jaws 3-D and The Revenge both fell short of the high benchmark set by the first movie. Still, the theatrical release dates of the last two films will always remain the same.

Terminator 2: Judgement Day was a very, very rare exception in which the sequel surpasses the original in popularity. And while were on the subject of sequels that a lot of people consider superior to the original, what about Toy Story 2 & 3, Return of the King, Spider-Man 2, and X-Men 2? None of the original films they were based on came out in 1999, yet they were all extremely popular when they came out, successfully prolonging the popularity of their respective franchises. You would have to be completely out of your head to categorize the Jaws sequels with Terminator 2 or all of the sequels I listed above.

I never categorized the Jaws sequels with Terminator 2 or any of the aforementioned films either.

I was just putting it out there that Jaws sequels were exclusive to the 1980s.

Your logic would necessarily imply that though, unless you're about to make another desperate excuse, like your "these movies weren't made in the 20th century" justification for Terminator 3 through 5 being separate from 1 and 2.

No, my logic did not ever imply that. You are choosing to interpret my words in a way that does not make sense.

While I agree 1990 was still mostly an 80s-style year, I think it's a bit of an overstatement to say it was the peak of 80s culture, considering Reagan was no longer President of the United States, house music was becoming popular for the first time, shows like The Simpsons and The Fresh Prince of Bell-Air were on television, Brat Pack comedies were no longer the centerpiece of pop culture (Heathers had come out the year before), the Cold War was technically over even though the USSR still existed, and iconic 80s franchises like Miami Vice, The Transformers, and The Smurfs were long over.

Transformers is an iconic '80s franchise that was long gone in 1990? When did you become an expert on '80s pop culture?

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kH-E9YFyvxY

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/12/15 at 9:48 pm

Nuh-uh! Also, didn't you say before your favorite year was 1991? What made you change from 1991 to 1990?

I love every year of the early '90s equally, but the assessment of the 1980s made by bchris02 was right on the money.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/12/15 at 9:50 pm

I love every year of the early '90s equally, but the assessment of the 1980s made by bchris02 was right on the money.

In another post you "admitted" that 1993 was an early 90's year so this means you like that year as much as 1990!

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon11/12/15 at 11:32 pm

Cheers ended its 11-season run on May 20, 1993. Children of the '90s fondly remember when MTV played music videos like children of the '80s do. MTV was only launched on August 1, 1981, it did not come into its own, as a network, until the 1990s. Jaws 3-D may have grossed a hundred dollars less than Jaws 2, but many people who were teenagers in that time can recall going to see it on opening weekend. The spirit of '78 is what made the '80s the '80s.

MTV wasn't a significant cultural force until the 1990's??? :o I can understand why you would argue it wasn't a huge deal right at its 1981 launch, but by 1983, with videos like Hungry Lile the Wolf, Thriller, and Girls Just Want to Have Fun circulating across the network, the music scene had entered a COMPLETELY new era, the lingering disco veterans and country crossover acts of the late 70s and early 80s jumping on the bandwagon or disappearing altogether. You can't POSSIBLY be serious if you think MTV's mainstream breakthrough wasn't until the 90s, especially with how you say movies like Jaws 3D and Jaws: The Revenge were "what made the 80s the 80s" instead. Oh, and Cheers had drastically fallen in popularity by the beginning of the 90s; its prime was strictly the 80s.

I'm with you on this one. Jaws 3-D and The Revenge both fell short of the high benchmark set by the first movie. Still, the theatrical release dates of the last two films will always remain the same.

Especially since you finally now admit to Jaws 3D and Jaws: The Revenge being terrible films, your latter statement is like if I decided to make a crappy, homemade sequel to Superbad involving zombies or something, got it released as a direct-to-video home flick, and turned a few heads with it (in a bad way, mind you), we'd still be in the 2000s. Just because you have a sequel in one decade to a film from the previous decade doesn't mean its of utmost significance, especially since far and large people didn't WANT Jaws sequels in the 80s. In fact, the trashy shark movie genre never fully died - Sharknado 1 and 2, anyone?

I never categorized the Jaws sequels with Terminator 2 or any of the aforementioned films either.

You still claimed Jaws defined the 80s in the same way The Terminator defined the 90s.

I was just putting it out there that Jaws sequels were exclusive to the 1980s.

Not Jaws 2, aka the only one that people took even semi-seriously. And no, 1979 is NOT an 80s year, not chronologically, not culturally, for the vast part. 1981 was really when the 80s truly came into their own, though some would push the date even further.

No, my logic did not ever imply that. You are choosing to interpret my words in a way that does not make sense.

YOUR logic is the type that sticks out like a sore thumb and doesn't make sense. Your entire point about movie sequels is that they all come out during the decade following the one the original film came out. That would make Men in Black a 2000s franchise by definition, with both a sequel as well as an animated series in the early 2000s, but even though the 2000s officially ended in 2011 according to you, this "2000s" film series having a popular third installment in 2012, after the supposed end of the 2000s, undermines your point completely. Your only justification for 3 not counting would apparently be that it was "not in the same caliber as 1 and 2," even though it was the SECOND film that people didn't like in particular, not the third.

Transformers is an iconic '80s franchise that was long gone in 1990? When did you become an expert on '80s pop culture?

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Not only did the original The Transformer cartoon (BY FAR the franchise's most successful cartoon series) end merely in 1987, The Transformers didn't become truly popular again until the 2007 Michael Bay film.

You seem relieved that bchris02 agreed with the idea of 1990 being the peak of 80s culture, but really, I think one of the major reasons he said that was to make you not feel insecure o the point you had to keep preaching your artificial opinions down everybody's throats. He still disagrees with a lot of your logic, and considered your idea that culture from 1978 was particularly headed for 1990 "ridiculous." With the 1990 comment, I'm pretty sure he was referring specifically to later trends like TMNT, NES, Phil Collins, Madonna, MTV, and the end of the Cold War (all of which you apparently consider culture "for the 90s"), certainly not Star Wars, Garfield, or Rocky V. In that sense, he's actually totally disagreeing with your 1990 theory, which he sees as the zenith of 80s culture as opposed to the turning point that marked the full beginning of the cultural 90s.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Howardon11/13/15 at 8:58 am

Yeah, Chris came of childhood age in the very late 80s. All of that was right before his time. They probably showed reruns of those things in his early childhood probably.

I was born in 1974 so I definitely lived the 80's.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on11/13/15 at 9:57 am

I was born in 1974 so I definitely lived the 80's.

Yup those were your main years growing up!

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Howardon11/13/15 at 3:08 pm

Yup those were your main years growing up!

Between 1985-1990 I was old enough to know most of the 80's.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:af2010on11/14/15 at 3:18 pm

I consider the late 90s and early 00s to basically be the same era (Y2K/Millennium era). 1997 is the year that's debatable. 96 isn't really debatable. You could see some elements of the millennium era starting to emerge, but it was still core 90s.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/15/15 at 9:18 am

In another post you "admitted" that 1993 was an early 90's year so this means you like that year as much as 1990!

That's not true. In the other post, I was saying the early '90s ended in 1993.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/15/15 at 9:26 am

I consider the late 90s and early 00s to basically be the same era (Y2K/Millennium era). 1997 is the year that's debatable. 96 isn't really debatable. You could see some elements of the millennium era starting to emerge, but it was still core 90s.

Core '90s shows like "Picket Fences" went off the air in 1996. '95 was the last full year of the core '90s.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/15/15 at 9:42 am

That's not true. In the other post, I was saying the early '90s ended in 1993.

I will try to find the post but I remember you saying "I admit it was the early 90's but it was the worst of the early 90's"

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/15/15 at 9:49 am

Found it:

I'll admit that early '93 was early 90s (the worst of the early 90s) but there is no way the fall to winter half of '93 is.

http://www.inthe00s.com/index.php?topic=50566.msg3186016#msg3186016

I like the slap fight, too. You made me spit out my coke.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/15/15 at 10:03 am

I will try to find the post but I remember you saying "I admit it was the early 90's but it was the worst of the early 90's"

I made that statement months before I had full knowledge of what the early '90s were. The transition from the start of 1990 to that of 1993 was over by the time the ball dropped at 12am.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/15/15 at 10:06 am

I made that statement months before I had full knowledge of what the early '90s were. The transition from the start of 1990 to that of 1993 was over by the time the ball dropped at 12am.

Huh? I thought you already knew "1993 sucked" when living it and that by 1999 you were nostalgic for 1990-1992 and hated everything from 1993 onward but now that when the ball dropped at 12am on 1993 everything from 1990-1992 disappeared!? And you just discovered this last year because of your new found knowledge?

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/15/15 at 10:53 am

MTV wasn't a significant cultural force until the 1990's??? :o I can understand why you would argue it wasn't a huge deal right at its 1981 launch, but by 1983, with videos like Hungry Lile the Wolf, Thriller, and Girls Just Want to Have Fun circulating across the network, the music scene had entered a COMPLETELY new era, the lingering disco veterans and country crossover acts of the late 70s and early 80s jumping on the bandwagon or disappearing altogether. You can't POSSIBLY be serious if you think MTV's mainstream breakthrough wasn't until the 90s, especially with how you say movies like Jaws 3D and Jaws: The Revenge were "what made the 80s the 80s" instead. Oh, and Cheers had drastically fallen in popularity by the beginning of the 90s; its prime was strictly the 80s.

This conversation is getting out of hand. Each year of the 1980s, from day one, saw the launch of '90s pop-culture institutions and MTV was one of them. That is another facet of the '80s that gave that time its identity. Yes, there were "as seen on MTV" stickers on the covers to many vinyl sleeves in 1984, but the MTV logo was not on one TV Guide cover until the first August of 1991 issue. Cheers may have drastically fallen in popularity by the start of 1990, but it still ran from September 30, 1982 to May 20, 1993.

Especially since you finally now admit to Jaws 3D and Jaws: The Revenge being terrible films, your latter statement is like if I decided to make a crappy, homemade sequel to Superbad involving zombies or something, got it released as a direct-to-video home flick, and turned a few heads with it (in a bad way, mind you), we'd still be in the 2000s. Just because you have a sequel in one decade to a film from the previous decade doesn't mean its of utmost significance, especially since far and large people didn't WANT Jaws sequels in the 80s. In fact, the trashy shark movie genre never fully died - Sharknado 1 and 2, anyone?

Your direct-to-video home flick would more than likely be released in 2011 or after. So we would be in the 2010s by then. ;)

Jaws 3-D was not of utmost significance? What is it doing in I Love the '80s 3-D then?

VtRGsh65UdE

You still claimed Jaws defined the 80s in the same way The Terminator defined the 90s.

That's far different from saying we were in the '90s still because of the presence of sequels like Men in Black 3 in theaters and you know it.

Not Jaws 2, aka the only one that people took even semi-seriously. And no, 1979 is NOT an 80s year, not chronologically, not culturally, for the vast part. 1981 was really when the 80s truly came into their own, though some would push the date even further.

Where did these shows like The Jeffersons and Three's Company come from if the '80s have no ties to " '70s years" like 1978 and '79? According to you, both of those shows abruptly came to an end the minute 1979 was over. ::)

YOUR logic is the type that sticks out like a sore thumb and doesn't make sense. Your entire point about movie sequels is that they all come out during the decade following the one the original film came out. That would make Men in Black a 2000s franchise by definition, with both a sequel as well as an animated series in the early 2000s, but even though the 2000s officially ended in 2011 according to you, this "2000s" film series having a popular third installment in 2012, after the supposed end of the 2000s, undermines your point completely. Your only justification for 3 not counting would apparently be that it was "not in the same caliber as 1 and 2," even though it was the SECOND film that people didn't like in particular, not the third.

No, my justification for 3 not counting is that it came out in the 2010s. 3 FOLLOWED Men in Black 2. The first sequel to the 1997 film was Men in Black 2.

Not only did the original The Transformer cartoon (BY FAR the franchise's most successful cartoon series) end merely in 1987, The Transformers didn't become truly popular again until the 2007 Michael Bay film.

The 1990 micromasters and Action Masters were still apart of the G1 Transformers toyline. :)

You seem relieved that bchris02 agreed with the idea of 1990 being the peak of 80s culture, but really, I think one of the major reasons he said that was to make you not feel insecure o the point you had to keep preaching your artificial opinions down everybody's throats. He still disagrees with a lot of your logic, and considered your idea that culture from 1978 was particularly headed for 1990 "ridiculous." With the 1990 comment, I'm pretty sure he was referring specifically to later trends like TMNT, NES, Phil Collins, Madonna, MTV, and the end of the Cold War (all of which you apparently consider culture "for the 90s"), certainly not Star Wars, Garfield, or Rocky V. In that sense, he's actually totally disagreeing with your 1990 theory, which he sees as the zenith of 80s culture as opposed to the turning point that marked the full beginning of the cultural 90s.

The operative word here is "think". ;)

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/15/15 at 10:59 am

Huh? I thought you already knew "1993 sucked" when living it and that by 1999 you were nostalgic for 1990-1992 and hated everything from 1993 onward but now that when the ball dropped at 12am on 1993 everything from 1990-1992 disappeared!? And you just discovered this last year because of your new found knowledge?

Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I never said that everything from 1990-1992 disappeared in 1993. That's you saying that. The culture of that time reached its final form in 1993.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/15/15 at 11:06 am

Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I never said that everything from 1990-1992 disappeared in 1993. That's you saying that. The culture of that time reached its final form in 1993.

Final form? I thought we were discussing the 90's, not Dragon Ball Z.

Jokes aside, what do you mean by final form? I thought everything peaked in 1990?

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/15/15 at 11:07 am

Found it:

http://www.inthe00s.com/index.php?topic=50566.msg3186016#msg3186016

I like the slap fight, too. You made me spit out my coke.

Here is that slap fight in all of its glory.

mfI1S0PKJR8

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/15/15 at 11:12 am

Here is that slap fight in all of its glory.

mfI1S0PKJR8

This video kicks ass.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/15/15 at 11:15 am

Final form? I thought we were discussing the 90's, not Dragon Ball Z.

Jokes aside, what do you mean by final form? I thought everything peaked in 1990?

I'll use the show, Doogie Howser, MD as an example of what I'm talking about. In 1993, Doggie Howser was living away from home and dating women who weren't Wanda Plenn.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/15/15 at 11:16 am

This video kicks ass.

I agree.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/15/15 at 11:19 am

I'll use the show, Doogie Howser, MD as an example of what I'm talking about. In 1993, Doggie Howser was living away from home and dating women who weren't Wanda Plenn.

So because Doggy wasn't dating Wanda Plenn and living at home that means that things from 1990-1992 took their final Super Saiyan form in 1993?

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/15/15 at 11:28 am

So because Doggy wasn't dating Wanda Plenn and living at home that means that things from 1990-1992 took their final Super Saiyan form in 1993?

Yes, the last seven or so episodes were more like the finale. It wasn't the show it was in 1990. The series, itself, went through some "growing pains" from the spring of 1990 to January of 1993.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/15/15 at 11:35 am

Yes, the last seven or so episodes were more like the finale. It wasn't the show it was in 1990. The series, itself, went through some "growing pains" from the spring of 1990 to January of 1993.

Wouldn't this mean that 1993 was still the early 90's?

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon11/15/15 at 12:05 pm

This conversation is getting out of hand. Each year of the 1980s, from day one, saw the launch of '90s pop-culture institutions and MTV was one of them. That is another facet of the '80s that gave that time its identity. Yes, there were "as seen on MTV" stickers on the covers to many vinyl sleeves in 1984, but the MTV logo was not on one TV Guide cover until the first August of 1991 issue. Cheers may have drastically fallen in popularity by the start of 1990, but it still ran from September 30, 1982 to May 20, 1993.

Pft. If we're going by stickers and magazine covers rather than which musicians were idolized most, then pretty much any argument is possible. Artists like Madonna, Def Leppard, and Duran Duran were able to sell millions upon millions of albums throughout the 80s precisely because of the appeal of MTV. Meanwhile, the biggest acts of 1978 like the Bee Gees, Earth, Wind & Fire, and The Village People were barely relevant at all after 1982.

MTV is like the first thing that comes to people's minds when they think of the 80s. Whether you think your fixation on the entire decade being for 1990 is right or not, your statements about the network being insignificant in the 80s is just not true if you focus only on the years themselves rather than the continued scattered prevalence of 1978 culture. Ask anybody who actually experienced their adolescence in the 80s (as opposed to playing with their Star Wars toys and reading their Garfield comics) and they will tell you completely otherwise.

Your direct-to-video home flick would more than likely be released in 2011 or after. So we would be in the 2010s by then. ;)

Ah, I just love your smug use of emoticons in every long post you make. I thought the entire point of the 2000s ending in 2011 was that franchises for the 2000s were no longer being made. It's just by convenience I guess that any sequel to a 2000s franchise made in 2012 or after "doesn't count." If Superbad is apparently a movie for the 2010s in your view, then how about I film a shoddy sequel to Clueless?

Jaws 3-D was not of utmost significance? What is it doing in I Love the '80s 3-D then?

Oh really, you're simply focusing on the handful of 3D movies that happened to come out during the 80s, regardless of their success? Avatar this ain't'. It does give me an idea, though - I should release my homemade Superbad sequel in 3D and compare it to Saw 3D and Pirahna 3DD, claiming it's more important to 2010s culture than The Avengers, which is culture for the 2020s due to the first film coming out after 2011.

That's far different from saying we were in the '90s still because of the presence of sequels like Men in Black 3 in theaters and you know it.

Uh, actually I don't. Considering Terminator 2 came out several years after the first movie, I fail to see what disqualifies MIB3 when MIB2 gets a free pass. Your only single justification is your absurd, biased, and dogmatic claim that 2011 marks the absolute end of 2000s culture and if you don't personally agree, you're a childish dummy who probably can't read Dr. Seuss.

Where did these shows like The Jeffersons and Three's Company come from if the '80s have no ties to " '70s years" like 1978 and '79? According to you, both of those shows abruptly came to an end the minute 1979 was over. ::)

I never said that, where did this come from? Really, I see 1981 as the real beginning of the 80s, but even so, a lot of 70s bands and TV shows filtered into the first few years of the decade (key phrase FIRST FEW, not the majority!). The point is that by 1981-1983, 70s culture was no longer dominant or in its prime.

No, my justification for 3 not counting is that it came out in the 2010s. 3 FOLLOWED Men in Black 2. The first sequel to the 1997 film was Men in Black 2.

Jaws 3D directly followed Jaws 2 though, not the original. Once again, you're being totally contradictory with your only defense being your dogged biases about decade boundaries.

The 1990 micromasters and Action Masters were still apart of the G1 Transformers toyline. :)

I get it, you're absolutely positively in love with the year 1990 like I'm in love with my girl crush, so you know every single little product that came out that year inside out. Go you. At least you're clearly delighted about your own obscure knowledge.

The operative word here is "think". ;)

Well, I obviously can't speak directly for bchris02, but I'm pretty sure his idea of 1990 defining the 80s hardly aligns with your 1978-centric definition. You were just so desperate for somebody to agree with you, even on the most minute level, that you totally paraded when bchris02 stated that 1990 was the quintessential year of the 80s, even though you clearly weren't paying attention to the preceding details. I'll allow him to clarify everything himself, but I certainly wouldn't consider his statements an excuse to flaunt your ego even further than you've been doing.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Howardon11/15/15 at 2:35 pm

Where did these shows like The Jeffersons and Three's Company come from if the '80s have no ties to " '70s years" like 1978 and '79? According to you, both of those shows abruptly came to an end the minute 1979 was over. ::)

The Jeffersons ended it's run in 1983 and Three's Company ended it's run in 1984 until it changed to Three's A Crowd.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/15/15 at 6:41 pm

Wouldn't this mean that 1993 was still the early 90's?

No, while we were living in the early '90s, the new shows from the fall of 1989 TV season were starting to look more and more like they did in the spring of 1993.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/15/15 at 6:49 pm

No, while we were living in the early '90s, the new shows from the fall of 1989 TV season were starting to look more and more like they did in the spring of 1993.

Huh?

Are you trying to say "While the early 90's progressed, television shows got closer to how they were in 1993 rather than their 1989 beginnings so that means that by time 1993 hit, we were in a new era" because, otherwise, that statement makes no sense.

Also, are you sure you're not on City-Data? This one guy posts the exact same stuff you do on that site.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/15/15 at 7:02 pm

Huh?

Are you trying to say "While the early 90's progressed, television shows got closer to how they were in 1993 rather than their 1989 beginnings so that means that by time 1993 hit, we were in a new era" because, otherwise, that statement makes no sense.

Yes, that is precisely what I was saying to you.

Also, are you sure you're not on City-Data? This one guy posts the exact same stuff you do on that site.

No, I have never been on City-Data. What is that?

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/15/15 at 7:07 pm

Yes, that is precisely what I was saying to you.

No, I have never been on City-Data. What is that?

That makes sense.

City-Data is a website that discusses, well, data about cities. They also have a culture sub-forum and this one guy talks about how the mid-late 90's were "total crap" and how once 1993 hit, everything went to sh*t.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/15/15 at 7:57 pm

Pft. If we're going by stickers and magazine covers rather than which musicians were idolized most, then pretty much any argument is possible. Artists like Madonna, Def Leppard, and Duran Duran were able to sell millions upon millions of albums throughout the 80s precisely because of the appeal of MTV. Meanwhile, the biggest acts of 1978 like the Bee Gees, Earth, Wind & Fire, and The Village People were barely relevant at all after 1982.

Songs that were originally meant for Earth, Wind and Fire like Rocket 2 U by The Jets were still on the charts in the late '80s, though.

MTV is like the first thing that comes to people's minds when they think of the 80s. Whether you think your fixation on the entire decade being for 1990 is right or not, your statements about the network being insignificant in the 80s is just not true if you focus only on the years themselves rather than the continued scattered prevalence of 1978 culture. Ask anybody who actually experienced their adolescence in the 80s (as opposed to playing with their Star Wars toys and reading their Garfield comics) and they will tell you completely otherwise.

Z. Cavaricci pleated pants also come to people's minds when the think of the 1980s. There is not any evidence of them being significant to the '80s out there. When searching for commercials on Youtube, I came across this one from '91:

g5n0Qgc4H3c

Ah, I just love your smug use of emoticons in every long post you make. I thought the entire point of the 2000s ending in 2011 was that franchises for the 2000s were no longer being made. It's just by convenience I guess that any sequel to a 2000s franchise made in 2012 or after "doesn't count." If Superbad is apparently a movie for the 2010s in your view, then how about I film a shoddy sequel to Clueless?

In the '00s, we were introduced to the first ever sequel in the Men in Black series, so it was not out of the ordinary to see a third movie in the '10s. So yes, the American comedy science fiction movie Men in Black 2 would count as incoming culture for the 2010s.

Uh, actually I don't. Considering Terminator 2 came out several years after the first movie, I fail to see what disqualifies MIB3 when MIB2 gets a free pass. Your only single justification is your absurd, biased, and dogmatic claim that 2011 marks the absolute end of 2000s culture and if you don't personally agree, you're a childish dummy who probably can't read Dr. Seuss.

MIB2 was the first ever example of a MIB sequel. It was a weak one at that, but still. In the 2010s, its commonplace to see sequels to movies from the 2000s like The Dark Knight Trilogy. I hope that helps.

I never said that, where did this come from? Really, I see 1981 as the real beginning of the 80s, but even so, a lot of 70s bands and TV shows filtered into the first few years of the decade (key phrase FIRST FEW, not the majority!). The point is that by 1981-1983, 70s culture was no longer dominant or in its prime.

Why else would '70s bands and TV shows filter into the first few years of the "decade" if the '80s did not start in 1978?

Jaws 3D directly followed Jaws 2 though, not the original. Once again, you're being totally contradictory with your only defense being your dogged biases about decade boundaries.

There was a twist to Men in Black 3, though. Time travel was not used in the original film or the first sequel.

I get it, you're absolutely positively in love with the year 1990 like I'm in love with my girl crush, so you know every single little product that came out that year inside out. Go you. At least you're clearly delighted about your own obscure Knowledge.

Please enlighten me. What was the first ever Transformers cartoon, but a commercial for the G1 toyline? That toyline, produced by Hasbro, ran from 1984 to 1991. You can call it "obscure" knowledge all you want, but it is the truth.

Well, I obviously can't speak directly for bchris02, but I'm pretty sure his idea of 1990 defining the 80s hardly aligns with your 1978-centric definition. You were just so desperate for somebody to agree with you, even on the most minute level, that you totally paraded when bchris02 stated that 1990 was the quintessential year of the 80s, even though you clearly weren't paying attention to the preceding details. I'll allow him to clarify everything himself, but I certainly wouldn't consider his statements an excuse to flaunt your ego even further than you've been doing.

How can his idea align with my "1978-centric definition"? He was born in 1985.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sGuyon11/15/15 at 8:06 pm

City-Data is a website that discusses, well, data about cities. They also have a culture sub-forum and this one guy talks about how the mid-late 90's were "total crap" and how once 1993 hit, everything went to sh*t.

Thank you for that information, JordanK1982. I'm sorry you had to come across the cruel words of that user. What are your feelings on '80s fans who say everything went to crap from 1993 onward?

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/15/15 at 9:03 pm

Thank you for that information, JordanK1982. I'm sorry you had to come across the cruel words of that user. What are your feelings on '80s fans who say everything went to crap from 1993 onward?

Well, thanks! You can just call me Jordan, though. I don't mind because I can kind of understand. I love the 80's. I think they were pretty cool times. Even at the time I felt 1993 was pretty already different than 1990-1992 but I didn't think "man, this sucks!" like some other 80's fans do. I'd love to have been maybe 15 years older and experience the early 80's Hardcore Punk scene and the mid-late 80's Gilman Punk scene but I am happy I got to have been involved with Pop Punk from 1996-2003 when it was still really good. I still stuck around until 2005 and was not happy with the Warped Tour line-up from that year so I kind of "quit the scene" and I was one of the last of my friends to do so, too. I can also relate to them since I don't like too most sh*t from 2004 onward (with some exceptions), though, I try not to be so abrasive about it.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:tnfon11/23/15 at 4:01 am

Musicwise, I found it hard to classify the 1996 tracks at my internet station; in the past I had a 'vintage' hour (mid/late 80s till 1995) and a 'millennial' hour (1996 till 2003). Although I grouped 1996's music together with the typical millennial tracks, a part of it still fitted the vintage hour. Some (late) 1995's music also suffered from this issue.

But jinglewise it was easier to draw a clear line.

1996 was clearly mid 90s; It's falling in between everything, a typical transition era. There was already internet, but in an extremely primitive way.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:aja675on11/23/15 at 5:04 am

It was the mid-'90s, but it had the same basic template as 1997 and 1998.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:bchris02on11/23/15 at 5:52 pm

In terms of music, I think it depends on the genre.

Rock, pop, dance, and ballads in 1996 fit more with the mid-90s than the late '90s. Hip-hop on the other hand was starting to evolve into its late '90s sound, with gangsta rap being gone and R&B influence increasing.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon11/23/15 at 7:45 pm

Rock, pop, dance, and ballads in 1996 fit more with the mid-90s than the late '90s. Hip-hop on the other hand was starting to evolve into its late '90s sound, with gangsta rap being gone and R&B influence increasing.

I'm not sure if I agree that hip hop was totally changing in 1996, at least not to the point that '96 was more of a late 90s year for the genre. The mid-90s hip hop style was still very much in its peak throughout the year, with songs like California Love, Get Money, 1 2 3 4 (Sumpin' New), and Doin It' making it into the top 20, not to mention an abnormally large amount of alternative hip hop like Elevators (Me & You) and Fu-Gee-La making solid showings. Songs by r&b artists were either of the smooth, stealthy, funky g-funk flavor (Twisted, Hit Me Off, You're Makin' Me High) or were adult ballads (1996 was one of the biggest years for Celine Dion and pre-Rainbow Mariah Carey, with songs like One Sweet Day and Because You Loved Me shooting up to #1).

Like I've mentioned before, hip hop and r&b didn't really begin to transition until the last third of 1996, even though it would still take another year before the late 90s style was fully established. The first two thirds of the year were pretty much 100% mid 90s, though you could argue that Brandy's Sittin' Up In My Room has a vaguely late 90s feel to it (it sounds much sleeker and more teenybopperish than the singles from her debut). Late 1996, of course, saw the groundbreaking No Diggity reach #1, not to mention songs like Pony, Only You, and Po Pimp also made notable chart impacts. I'd even argue that songs like I Believe I Can Fly and This Is for the Lover in You were on the cusp between the mid and late 90s (they're unmistakably core 90s songs, but they have slightly more polished production than previous r&b hits, not to mention the latter song features guest verses from LL Cool J with ultra-materialistic lyrics, basically setting the stage for late 90s and early 2000s urban music). Then, of course, there was the collapse of the gangsta rap movement with the death of 2Pac, incarceration of Suge Knight, and failures of Tha Doggfather and Dr. Dre Presents the Aftermath. Regardless, the late 90s style was not yet completely standardized; it would become fully dominant after Can't Nobody Hold Me Down shot up the charts and Biggie lost his life, but even the spring and summer of 1997 had some mid 90s-style hits like C U When U Get There, Smile, The One I Gave My Heart To, and Never Make a Promise alongside the more modern ones like Mo' Money Mo' Problems, G.H.E.T.T.O.U.T., and I Belong to You. A lot of popular songs still had that laid-back, funky rhythm to them (even without the typical g-funk bass and synthesizers) or retained those distinctly mid-90s-style electric pianos (like the ones from Jon B. & Babyface's Someone to Love, for example), both of which weren't totally swallowed up by the harder, more electronic soundscapes until autumn.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on11/23/15 at 9:59 pm

I'm not sure if I agree that hip hop was totally changing in 1996, at least not to the point that '96 was more of a late 90s year for the genre. The mid-90s hip hop style was still very much in its peak throughout the year, with songs like California Love, Get Money, 1 2 3 4 (Sumpin' New), and Doin It' making it into the top 20, not to mention an abnormally large amount of alternative hip hop like Elevators (Me & You) and Fu-Gee-La making solid showings. Songs by r&b artists were either of the smooth, stealthy, funky g-funk flavor (Twisted, Hit Me Off, You're Makin' Me High) or were adult ballads (1996 was one of the biggest years for Celine Dion and pre-Rainbow Mariah Carey, with songs like One Sweet Day and Because You Loved Me shooting up to #1).

Like I've mentioned before, hip hop and r&b didn't really begin to transition until the last third of 1996, even though it would still take another year before the late 90s style was fully established. The first two thirds of the year were pretty much 100% mid 90s, though you could argue that Brandy's Sittin' Up In My Room has a vaguely late 90s feel to it (it sounds much sleeker and more teenybopperish than the singles from her debut). Late 1996, of course, saw the groundbreaking No Diggity reach #1, not to mention songs like Pony, Only You, and Po Pimp also made notable chart impacts. I'd even argue that songs like I Believe I Can Fly and This Is for the Lover in You were on the cusp between the mid and late 90s (they're unmistakably core 90s songs, but they have slightly more polished production than previous r&b hits, not to mention the latter song features guest verses from LL Cool J with ultra-materialistic lyrics, basically setting the stage for late 90s and early 2000s urban music). Then, of course, there was the collapse of the gangsta rap movement with the death of 2Pac, incarceration of Suge Knight, and failures of Tha Doggfather and Dr. Dre Presents the Aftermath. Regardless, the late 90s style was not yet completely standardized; it would become fully dominant after Can't Nobody Hold Me Down shot up the charts and Biggie lost his life, but even the spring and summer of 1997 had some mid 90s-style hits like C U When U Get There, Smile, The One I Gave My Heart To, and Never Make a Promise alongside the more modern ones like Mo' Money Mo' Problems, G.H.E.T.T.O.U.T., and I Belong to You. A lot of popular songs still had that laid-back, funky rhythm to them (even without the typical g-funk bass and synthesizers) or retained those distinctly mid-90s-style electric pianos (like the ones from Jon B. & Babyface's Someone to Love, for example), both of which weren't totally swallowed up by the harder, more electronic soundscapes until autumn.

Here's some 1996 hip hop hits! :) pXPXyEadpf4

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/25/15 at 10:11 pm

Musicwise, I found it hard to classify the 1996 tracks at my internet station; in the past I had a 'vintage' hour (mid/late 80s till 1995) and a 'millennial' hour (1996 till 2003). Although I grouped 1996's music together with the typical millennial tracks, a part of it still fitted the vintage hour. Some (late) 1995's music also suffered from this issue.

But jinglewise it was easier to draw a clear line.

1996 was clearly mid 90s; It's falling in between everything, a typical transition era. There was already internet, but in an extremely primitive way.

Yeah, some music started getting very Y2K 1998-2002-ish by 1996.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:tnfon11/25/15 at 11:09 pm

Here in Europe there were some late eurodance left-overs (the last Snap! single 'Rame', some late Cappella stuff, the Captain Jack hits; a surprising new act that year, considering the way music developed), while at the same time the typical slick r&b/hip hop music of the late 90s and early 00s was popping up.

After 1996 there was almost no (popular) eurodance anymore, while that slick r&b/hip hop had complete replaced the more 'old school' r&b/hip hop sound, still available in 1995.

Btw, here in Holland we had a strange music trend, spanning the entire late 1994-spring 1997 era: happy hardcore, a slightly rougher and speeded-up alternative for eurodance --> In other countries called 'happy rave' or just 'rave'. Neather belonging to the early 90s nor to the late 90s. Two big 1996 hits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix7qeLBWkm4 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O64vSP-Zj6U

This is the bíggest genre classic btw, but it's of the very beginning of that era, nót released in 1996: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DCdm2MYi5Q

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/26/15 at 12:17 am

Here in Europe there were some late eurodance left-overs (the last Snap! single 'Rame', some late Cappella stuff, the Captain Jack hits; a surprising new act that year, considering the way music developed), while at the same time the typical slick r&b/hip hop music of the late 90s and early 00s was popping up.

After 1996 there was almost no (popular) eurodance anymore, while that slick r&b/hip hop had complete replaced the more 'old school' r&b/hip hop sound, still available in 1995.

Btw, here in Holland we had a strange music trend, spanning the entire late 1994-spring 1997 era: happy hardcore, a slightly rougher and speeded-up alternative for eurodance --> In other countries called 'happy rave' or just 'rave'. Neather belonging to the early 90s nor to the late 90s. Two big 1996 hits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix7qeLBWkm4 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O64vSP-Zj6U

This is the bíggest genre classic btw, but it's of the very beginning of that era, nót released in 1996: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DCdm2MYi5Q

The first time I noticed that new slick RnB/Hip Hop sound was 1997/1998-ish. Whenever the Hot Boys released their first album and Snoop Dogg released "Da Game Is to Be Sold." I saw some of their videos on MTV and thought "I don't like this." I am not too into Hip Hop (I like quite a bit of the 1984-1996 stuff but that's about it) but I remember how prominent that sound got. Some people say "Urban Hip Hop wasn't a big thing in the late 90's" but I remember tons of yo yo homeboys around my high school started to imitate that urban gangster thing. It felt like half the school was into this sh*t! It got really big around 1997-ish. In high school, there was this area near the basketball court where all these guys dressed like they were in gangs would hang out, sneak in porno magazines and smoke pot and when I'd walk by, I remember hearing some Juvenile songs like "Ha" and "Back That Ass Up" a lot. Those songs still sound very slick.

I have friends who are really into electronic dance music so they'd probably know more about it than I do but from what I recall from I think about 1996 to 2003 there was a specific type of sound that guys like Darude, John Digweed, Bomfunk MC's and Novaspace to name a few did. It was actually really fun music. Then around 2004 or 2005 that thing kind of stopped.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:tnfon11/26/15 at 2:39 am

I have friends who are really into electronic dance music so they'd probably know more about it than I do but from what I recall from I think about 1996 to 2003 there was a specific type of sound that guys like Darude, John Digweed, Bomfunk MC's and Novaspace to name a few did. It was actually really fun music. Then around 2004 or 2005 that thing kind of stopped.

That's typical music of 2000-2003. Not 1996-2003.

(I was extremely into dance music in the 90s and early 00s, I remember everything.)

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/26/15 at 2:59 am

That's typical music of 2000-2003. Not 1996-2003.

(I was extremely into dance music in the 90s and early 00s, I remember everything.)

Like I said, I am not huge into dance music so my knowledge is very limited on that subject. What would you say about 1998 and 1999, though? I remember some of that stuff getting popular during both those years like the Bomfunk MC's and John Digweed and their popularity continued into 2000-2003. Thing is, their 1998 and 1999 stuff doesn't sound or feel at all different than dance stuff from 2000-2003, at least in my opinion. Thoughts?

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:tnfon11/26/15 at 4:42 am

In The Netherlands, we've never heard something of Bomfunk Mc's until 'Freestyler' (early 2000).

In 1998 and 1999, my country was into clubtrance, early 'regular' trance (especially in 1999, after the first Ferry Corsten hits), basic 'handbag' club music of acts like The Klubbheads and Dj Jean, and of course we had The Vengaboys. :)

And there was a little bit of speedgarage (like 187 Lockdown's Kung-fu); in 2000 replaced by 2step.

2000-2001 brought a lot of disco house and other soft/groovy styles, besides lóts of the regular trance mentioned before. And still that handbag club sound.

After 9/11 dance music became somewhat colder and more harsh, generally. Electroclash, hardstyle and things like Novaspace and Jan Wayne. I don't remember much of it released before Fall 2001.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/26/15 at 5:24 am

In The Netherlands, we've never heard something of Bomfunk Mc's until 'Freestyler' (early 2000).

In 1998 and 1999, my country was into clubtrance, early 'regular' trance (especially in 1999, after the first Ferry Corsten hits), basic 'handbag' club music of acts like The Klubbheads and Dj Jean, and of course we had The Vengaboys. :)

And there was a little bit of speedgarage (like 187 Lockdown's Kung-fu); in 2000 replaced by 2step.

2000-2001 brought a lot of disco house and other soft/groovy styles, besides lóts of the regular trance mentioned before. And still that handbag club sound.

After 9/11 dance music became somewhat colder and more harsh, generally. Electroclash, hardstyle and things like Novaspace and Jan Wayne. I don't remember much of it released before Fall 2001.

I see. That's a pretty interesting perspective on the late 90's/early 00's dance scene.

I remember a bit of Electroclash from 1998 and 1999. Stuff like Collider's Blowing Sh*t Up and I-F's F*cking Consumer come to mind. They had a bunch of stuff up on mp3.com, too.

Listening to some of the stuff, most of it released from 1998 up to around 2003 sound pretty similar to me as if it was all one continuous thing. It's all very focused on the percussion with "dreamy" or futuristic keyboard effects. Very Y2K era sounding. That's just my perspective of it all.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:90s Guyon11/26/15 at 1:31 pm

Yeah, well the President of the United States isn't everything. I'll respect your opinion if you respect mine and others'. Stop preaching your personal definitions of year boundaries like they're the absolute truth. It's just cultural changes, and culture is extremely multi-faceted, so the starting and ending points are necessarily going to vary by person. My own belief of the mid-90s beginning around early-mid 1994 isn't any superior to anybody else's input here, and neither is your January 20, 1993 starting point. There are plenty of things from 1993 that can be easily interpreted as either "early 90s" or "mid-90s." Not all popular culture is contingent with the inauguration of a new president; in fact, most of it isn't.

I actually agree with a hell of a lot of what you've been saying.

Politically yes 1993 represented something new. But people forget that Bill Clinton, in his first two years, was a dismal failure. He reneged on his promises to reform welfare early on, pushed Healthcare to the head of the line which alienated tons of voters, costing him one of the biggest Congressional losses in decades. He actually had to give a conference on April 18th 1995 stating he was "relevant" in comparison to Newt Gingrich (who many felt to be in essence the de facto man in charge). It was only after Oklahoma City when the President hit his stride, began to be seen as a leader and not just Jimmy Carter Mk. 2. 1993, 1994 while Clinton was President, isn't really the "Clinton era" in that sense. In late 1994 he was looking like a failed, doomed one termer.

Culturally to me the mid 90s is something like:

Early 1990s: April 30th 1990 - April 1st, 1994

Mid 1990s:April 1st 1994 - April 30th 1997

Late 1990s:May 1st 1997 - April 30th 1999

Early 00s:May 1st, 1999 through September 11th 2001

Mid 2000sSeptember 11th 2001 - May 1st 2005

Late 2000s:May 1st 2005 - April 30th 2009

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Howardon11/26/15 at 2:07 pm

Yeah, some music started getting very Y2K 1998-2002-ish by 1996.

Why was that?

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon11/26/15 at 2:33 pm

Culturally to me the mid 90s is something like:

Early 1990s: April 30th 1990 - April 1st, 1994

Mid 1990s:April 1st 1994 - April 30th 1997

Late 1990s:May 1st 1997 - April 30th 1999

Early 00s:May 1st, 1999 through September 11th 2001

Mid 2000sSeptember 11th 2001 - May 1st 2005

Late 2000s:May 1st 2005 - April 30th 2009

I generally agree with most of your date boundaries, though I think it's interesting the way you frame spring 1999 to 9/11 as the true early 2000s and especially the post-9/11 period as the mid-2000s. I definitely think there was a certain shift in spring 1999, which separated the first part of the millennial era (essentially the Puff Daddy and Spice Girls era) from the second part (teen pop enters its absolute peak with the debut of Britney Spears and release of BSB's Millennium, the Spice Girls suddenly fall from fame, The Matrix revolutionizes film, Eminem releases his first album, blink-182 becomes popular, nu-metal and rap rock bands like Limp Bizkit and Korn overtake the lingering Alanis Morissette sound in rock, the Internet is pretty much fully established, etc.), but I don't think it was as seismic as those from late 1996/early 1997 and 2001. I also don't see how the 2004/2005 school year is markedly different from the subsequent summer, considering that by the latter YouTube had only just come out (so it wasn't popular yet), iPods and iTunes were already pretty popular, MySpace had already been out for two years, and crunk and thug rap were still the dominant genres on the pop charts. I personally think late 2003/early 2004 is a more accurate starting point for mid-2000s culture; 2002 and especially late 2001 being the "mid 2000s" just seems rather odd.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/26/15 at 8:48 pm

Why was that?

No reason, really. It just happened around 1996 that Teenybopper Pop, Nu Metal and Post-Grunge started to take it's Y2K form. Further more in 1997 with Pop Punk and Hip Hop and then in 1998 the Y2K forms of Pop Punk, Post-Grunge, Teenybopper Pop, Hip Hop (actually, I'd argue that Hip Hop just sounded very 2000's in general already in 1998) and Nu Metal were fully established.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/26/15 at 8:56 pm

I actually agree with a hell of a lot of what you've been saying.

Politically yes 1993 represented something new. But people forget that Bill Clinton, in his first two years, was a dismal failure. He reneged on his promises to reform welfare early on, pushed Healthcare to the head of the line which alienated tons of voters, costing him one of the biggest Congressional losses in decades. He actually had to give a conference on April 18th 1995 stating he was "relevant" in comparison to Newt Gingrich (who many felt to be in essence the de facto man in charge). It was only after Oklahoma City when the President hit his stride, began to be seen as a leader and not just Jimmy Carter Mk. 2. 1993, 1994 while Clinton was President, isn't really the "Clinton era" in that sense. In late 1994 he was looking like a failed, doomed one termer.

Culturally to me the mid 90s is something like:

Early 1990s: April 30th 1990 - April 1st, 1994

Mid 1990s:April 1st 1994 - April 30th 1997

Late 1990s:May 1st 1997 - April 30th 1999

Early 00s:May 1st, 1999 through September 11th 2001

Mid 2000sSeptember 11th 2001 - May 1st 2005

Late 2000s:May 1st 2005 - April 30th 2009

I think it's more like this:Early 90's:1990-1992

1993 transition year.

Mid 90's:1994-1997

Y2K era:1998-2002

2003 transition year

Mid 00's:2004-2006

Late 00's:2007-2010

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon11/26/15 at 11:50 pm

This is currently how I'd frame the decade sub-eras. I'm going by seasons because except in the early 2000s' case, the boundaries are too vague to mark exactly.

Early 80s: Winter 1980/1981 - Autumn 1983Begins with the death of John Lennon and election of Ronald Reagan, ends with the Video Game Crash of 1983.

Mid 80s: Winter 1983/1984 - Summer 1988Begins with the Thriller music video, breakthroughs of Madonna and Cyndi Lauper's careers, industrialization of hair metal, and resurgence in the economy, ends with the cancellation of The Transformers, Ronald Reagan leaving office, and the end of the Cold War being fully imminent.

Late 80s: Autumn 1988 - December, 1991Begins with the breakthrough of new-jack swing, start of the first regular season of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, peak of the NES, and Bush '41 getting elected President of the United States; ends with the official dissolution of the Soviet Union.

Early 90s: December, 1991 - Spring 1994Begins with the breakthrough of Nirvana's Smells Like Teen Spirit, release of Beauty & the Beast (thus ushering in the peak of the Disney Renaissance), the 16-bit video game era coming into full gear, and popularization of the first wave of Nicktoons; ends with the death of Kurt Cobain, cancellation of old Doug, and death of lingering 80s hairstyles.

Mid 90s: Summer 1994 - Winter 1996/1997Begins with the release of Ready to Die, premiere of Friends, and breakthrough of pop punk, post-grunge, and britpop; ends with the deaths of 2Pac & Biggie, full collapse of the grunge movement, decline of britpop and eurodance, and death of the Super Nintendo.

Late 90s: Spring 1997 - Summer 2001Begins with the breakthrough of glam rap and teen pop, release of Mario Kart 64, and premiere of Daria; ends with the death of Napster, as well as the decline of teen pop, Limp Bizkit, and Pokémania.

Early 2000s: Autumn 2001 - Autumn 2003Begins with 9/11, the release of the GameCube and XBOX, popularization of the PS2, and American premiere of Yu-Gi-Oh!; ends with the first revelations of there being no Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq, decline of the Neptunes and Murder Inc., start of Yu-Gi-Oh!'s Noah Arc, and cancellation of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Mid 2000s: Winter 2003/2004 - Summer 2006Begins with the mainstream breakthrough of iPods and iTunes, popularization of crunk, pop punk starting to evolve into pop-emo, premiere of Teen Titans, and MySpace rising to popularity; ends with the release of Just My Luck, announced delay of Crunk Rock, decline of mall culture, and death of the Web 2.0 era.

Late 2000s: Autumn 2006 - Winter 2008/2009Begins with the start of Timbaland's golden era, the release of the PS3 and Wii, premiere of 30 Rock, standardization of YouTube and Facebook, and election of a Democratic Congress; ends with the death of snap, decline of post-grunge and pop punk, and MySpace beginning to fall from popularity.

Early 2010s: Spring 2009 - Winter 2012/2013Begins with the onset of the Great Recession, election of Barack Obama, Lady Gaga becoming the new biggest star in the world, Akon and the Black Eyed Peas converting to electronic dance music, iPhones becoming noticeable, Facebook overtaking MySpace in popularity, and HD format becoming standard; ends with the economy finally making signs of significant improvement, reelection of Obama, and decline of semi-mature electropop.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Early 90's:1990-halfway 1992, although I also would group 1989 together with these years.

Transition era: Halfway 1992-halfway 1993

Mid 90's:Halfway 1993-Spring 1996

Transition era:Spring 1996-Autumn 1996

Y2k era:Autumn 1996-9/11

Transition era:9/11-Halfway/Autumn 2003 (not that clear to me)

Core 00s part 1:Halfway/Autumn 2003-Halfway 2006

Core 00s part 2:Halfway 2006-Halfway 2008

Transition era: Halfway 2008-Autumn 2008 (I felt the world changing in a véry short time span)

In my opinion, often there's a split somewhere halfway a specific year. And I don't notice that much change anymore since Autumn 2008. Yeah, more social media influence, hipster fashion and less Lady Gaga like music, but I don't think there's enough difference to make the last couple of years feel like another era. Still recession, still that materialistic and egocentric atmosphere in the world --> just more compared to 2008.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:ocarinafan96on11/27/15 at 7:32 am

This is currently how I'd frame the decade sub-eras. I'm going by seasons because except in the early 2000s' case, the boundaries are too vague to mark exactly.

Early 80s: Winter 1980/1981 - Autumn 1983Begins with the death of John Lennon and election of Ronald Reagan, ends with the Video Game Crash of 1983.

Mid 80s: Winter 1983/1984 - Summer 1988Begins with the Thriller music video, breakthroughs of Madonna and Cyndi Lauper's careers, industrialization of hair metal, and resurgence in the economy, ends with the cancellation of The Transformers, Ronald Reagan leaving office, and the end of the Cold War being fully imminent.

Late 80s: Autumn 1988 - December, 1991Begins with the breakthrough of new-jack swing, start of the first regular season of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, peak of the NES, and Bush '41 getting elected President of the United States; ends with the official dissolution of the Soviet Union.

Early 90s: December, 1991 - Spring 1994Begins with the breakthrough of Nirvana's Smells Like Teen Spirit, release of Beauty & the Beast (thus ushering in the peak of the Disney Renaissance), the 16-bit video game era coming into full gear, and popularization of the first wave of Nicktoons; ends with the death of Kurt Cobain, cancellation of old Doug, and death of lingering 80s hairstyles.

Mid 90s: Summer 1994 - Winter 1996/1997Begins with the release of Ready to Die, premiere of Friends, and breakthrough of pop punk, post-grunge, and britpop; ends with the deaths of 2Pac & Biggie, full collapse of the grunge movement, decline of britpop and eurodance, and death of the Super Nintendo.

Late 90s: Spring 1997 - Summer 2001Begins with the breakthrough of glam rap and teen pop, release of Mario Kart 64, and premiere of Daria; ends with the death of Napster, as well as the decline of teen pop, Limp Bizkit, and Pokémania.

Early 2000s: Autumn 2001 - Autumn 2003Begins with 9/11, the release of the GameCube and XBOX, popularization of the PS2, and American premiere of Yu-Gi-Oh!; ends with the first revelations of there being no Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq, decline of the Neptunes and Murder Inc., start of Yu-Gi-Oh!'s Noah Arc, and cancellation of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Mid 2000s: Winter 2003/2004 - Summer 2006Begins with the mainstream breakthrough of iPods and iTunes, popularization of crunk, pop punk starting to evolve into pop-emo, premiere of Teen Titans, and MySpace rising to popularity; ends with the release of Just My Luck, announced delay of Crunk Rock, decline of mall culture, and death of the Web 2.0 era.

Late 2000s: Autumn 2006 - Winter 2008/2009Begins with the start of Timbaland's golden era, the release of the PS3 and Wii, premiere of 30 Rock, standardization of YouTube and Facebook, and election of a Democratic Congress; ends with the death of snap, decline of post-grunge and pop punk, and MySpace beginning to fall from popularity.

Early 2010s: Spring 2009 - Winter 2012/2013Begins with the onset of the Great Recession, election of Barack Obama, Lady Gaga becoming the new biggest star in the world, Akon and the Black Eyed Peas converting to electronic dance music, iPhones becoming noticeable, Facebook overtaking MySpace in popularity, and HD format becoming standard; ends with the economy finally making signs of significant improvement, reelection of Obama, and decline of semi-mature electropop.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:ArcticFoxon11/27/15 at 2:38 pm

No reason, really. It just happened around 1996 that Teenybopper Pop, Nu Metal and Post-Grunge started to take it's Y2K form. Further more in 1997 with Pop Punk and Hip Hop and then in 1998 the Y2K forms of Pop Punk, Post-Grunge, Teenybopper Pop, Hip Hop (actually, I'd argue that Hip Hop just sounded very 2000's in general already in 1998) and Nu Metal were fully established.

Teen Pop didn't become popular in America until January 1997. In Europe it was popular the entire decade.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon11/27/15 at 4:02 pm

Teen Pop didn't become popular in America until January 1997. In Europe it was popular the entire decade.

It seems like he focuses more on what musical movements existed in all quarters of society, as opposed to what was most successful at the time. In that case, he is right that 1996 was basically when teen pop began to evolve from its more primitive form into what would later grow especially popular by 1999. The Backstreet Boys and Spice Girls released their debut albums internationally in 1996, and *NSYNC's I Want You Back (a very Y2K-ish teen pop song) was already a hit in Germany in the autumn of that year.

The interesting thing, though, is that even in the United States, the mid-90s had occasional hits by teen pop acts, like Eternal's Stay, Take That's Back for Good, the Backstreet Boys' We've Got It Goin' On, and a few songs by Color Me Badd, even though the period was clearly more dominated by black r&b princesses like Brandy and TLC, as well as adult-oriented vocal groups such as Boyz II Men and All-4-One.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Gdowe1991on11/27/15 at 4:29 pm

Quintessential early 90s year- 1992

Quintessential mid 90s year- 1995 or 1996

Quintessential late 90s year- 1999

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Todd Pettingzooon11/27/15 at 8:45 pm

I actually agree with a hell of a lot of what you've been saying.

Politically yes 1993 represented something new. But people forget that Bill Clinton, in his first two years, was a dismal failure. He reneged on his promises to reform welfare early on, pushed Healthcare to the head of the line which alienated tons of voters, costing him one of the biggest Congressional losses in decades. He actually had to give a conference on April 18th 1995 stating he was "relevant" in comparison to Newt Gingrich (who many felt to be in essence the de facto man in charge). It was only after Oklahoma City when the President hit his stride, began to be seen as a leader and not just Jimmy Carter Mk. 2. 1993, 1994 while Clinton was President, isn't really the "Clinton era" in that sense. In late 1994 he was looking like a failed, doomed one termer.

Similar thing politically in late '81 to early '83. The huge recession and Reagan looking super out of touch. I don't think the true Reagan-era began until late '83 or early '84.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:JordanK1982on11/27/15 at 10:18 pm

Teen Pop didn't become popular in America until January 1997. In Europe it was popular the entire decade.

Dude, I know what I'm talking about. You don't have to tell me what was popular when it was popular. I clearly stated that's when the Y2K sound was taking form. I didn't mention anything about popularity.

It seems like he focuses more on what musical movements existed in all quarters of society, as opposed to what was most successful at the time. In that case, he is right that 1996 was basically when teen pop began to evolve from its more primitive form into what would later grow especially popular by 1999. The Backstreet Boys and Spice Girls released their debut albums internationally in 1996, and *NSYNC's I Want You Back (a very Y2K-ish teen pop song) was already a hit in Germany in the autumn of that year.

The interesting thing, though, is that even in the United States, the mid-90s had occasional hits by teen pop acts, like Eternal's Stay, Take That's Back for Good, the Backstreet Boys' We've Got It Goin' On, and a few songs by Color Me Badd, even though the period was clearly more dominated by black r&b princesses like Brandy and TLC, as well as adult-oriented vocal groups such as Boyz II Men and All-4-One.

Yeah, you summed it up pretty well. Good points about 1996, too. You typed it all for me so I don't have to! The very bands that defined the Teenybopper Pop stuff got their start during that year. That's got to count for something.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:ArcticFoxon04/13/16 at 2:06 am

It was the mid-'90s, but it had the same basic template as 1997 and 1998.

This feels off. 1998 is tremendously different from 1996 and 1997 in a lot of ways, probably almost all of them actually. There were a few mid '90s leftovers throughout '98, but they were mostly just minor chart hits and a couple surviving hairstyles and accessories. And all of these things were on their last legs by then. 1998 was really the beginning of something new.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon04/13/16 at 4:20 am

This feels off. 1998 is tremendously different from 1996 and 1997 in a lot of ways, probably almost all of them actually. There were a few mid '90s leftovers throughout '98, but they were mostly just minor chart hits and a couple surviving hairstyles and accessories. And all of these things were on their last legs by then. 1998 was really the beginning of something new.

Okay, I know I talk a lot about 1997, but since you enjoy debating about this matter, and because I'm still intrigued to hear your input in-detail, here we go.

How is 1998 so radically different from 1997? Granted, there were still a lot of mid-90s holdovers throughout the first half of 1997, but even then, the late 90s influences were more than prevalent by spring of that year. 1997 already had lots of teen pop dominating the charts throughout, as well as urban songs like "You Make Me Wanna," "Don't Leave Me," "One in a Million," and "It's All About the Benjamins" becoming gigantic hits. Gin Blossoms and the Cranberries, two of the biggest alternative groups of the mid-90s, left the mainstream for good after winter 1996/1997. Several new bands, such as Smash Mouth, Matchbox Twenty, Third Eye Blind, and Sugar Ray emerged in their place, all of which were staples of the Y2K era of pop rock; I still don't understand how you can categorize the latter two's 1997 albums as mid-90s when they're both by millennial-era bands and would not sound outdated in 1998-2001. Regular grunge also finally died, with Alice in Chains, Soundgarden, and Screaming Trees all calling it quits around that time. Radiohead's OK Computer revolutionized art rock and, along with the Verve's "Bittersweet Symphony," brought post-britpop to the forefront (regular britpop lost momentum after Oasis' ill-fated Be Here Now, although it actually remained somewhat popular in Britain until the early 2000s). Mid-90s-style eurodance declined throughout the first half of the year and was completely replaced by late 90s bubblegum pop like Aqua by autumn. Pop punk started to develop a new sound, distinct from grunge and Green Day's Dookie, beginning around 1997, with some examples of the new style being Ixnay on the Hombre, Blink-182's Dude Ranch, the Ataris' Anywhere but Here, and Green Day's Nimrod. Although there was still a fair amount of gangsta rap popular in 1997, it wasn't coming from Death Row Records and was generally less popular than the newer stuff by Puff Daddy, Master P, Timbaland, and Will Smith. In fact, 90s gangsta rap was still fairly popular even in 1998 and 1999, during which Ice Cube released War & Peace Vol. 1, Nate Dogg had a top 20 hit, Mack 10 came out with The Recipe, and Warren G released the solidly successful I Want It All, so gangsta rap in 1997 was pretty much closer to the late 90s than the mid-90s era of 2Pac before his death, Dr. Dre, and Snoop Doggy Dogg.

Television-wise, unlike 1997 and late 1996, 1998 was a fairly insignificant year for new shows. Probably the most notable premieres that year were Dawson's Creek, Sex and the City, and Will and Grace. There was also Pokémon, The Wild Thornberrys, and the Powerpuff Girls for kids, though they all premiered during the last third of the year, making them more regular-Y2K shows. They're significant, to be sure, but just look at all these series that came out from late 1996 to mid-1997:

Sure, some of the shows I listed are more significant than others, but that's still quite an onslaught of new series that made a significant impact on popular culture. You can't categorize 1997 with the mid-90s based on Beavis & Butthead, X-Men, and Spiderman alone. Even The Simpsons was already starting to decline in quality during 1997 (it's fall from grace wasn't official until very late 1998), while Seinfeld was still on tv for a good chunk of 1998.

In cinema, the disaster movie genre was dominant throughout 1997; this movement began in 1996 with Twister and Independence Day but is really more associated with the late 90s, leading eventually to Godzilla '98 and Armageddon in 1998. The Scream franchise revolutionized horror at the end of 1996 and also partially paved the way for the wave of teen movies that were popular during the Y2K era. 1997 also had the first entry in the Austin Powers franchise, a staple of Y2K-era culture.

In miscellaneous matters, Tony Blair became the first Labour Prime Minister of Great Britain since 1979, Princess Diana passed away, Biggie Smalls was murdered, the Internet became more than just a fad, and the fifth generation of gaming was pretty much full established; even though the Super Nintendo and Sega Genesis were still being sold in stores, they no longer had any significant new games coming out for them, all the while titles like Mario Kart 64, GoldenEye 007, Star Fox 64, Symphony of the Night, and Final Fantasy VII revolutionized gaming for the coming era.

1998 is actually pretty different from 1999-2001, much more so than people give it credit for. A lot of Y2K-era culture associated with that period, like rap-metal, latin pop, the peak of teen pop, American Pie, Family Guy, and even Pokémon, were not yet that popular in 1998, even though some were just getting their start; Pokémon may have been released internationally in autumn 1998, but it wasn't a fad yet and kids were still more interested in Power Rangers and early Nintendo 64 games. Classic 90s alternative songs like "Real World," "Father of Mine," "The Way," "It's All Been Done," and "Save Tonight" were still much more popular than nu-metal and rap-rock, and it was pretty much of the same type of sound that was popular in 1997. KorN released Follow the Leader and Kid Rock came out with Devil without a Cause, both on my sixth birthday, but neither of those albums reached the height of their popularity until mid-1999. Even acts like Garbage, the Smashing Pumpkins, and Alanis Morissette were still at the forefront of the rock scene. Britney Spears only burst onto the teen pop scene near the end of 1998; otherwise, the teen pop movement was highly comparable to what it was in 1997, with the Backstreet Boys, Spice Girls, and Savage Garden leading the way, although *NSYNC joined in the fun as well. 90s-style love ballads like "My Heart Will Go On," "My All," "All My Life," "I Don't Want to Miss a Thing," and "I'm Your Angel" still comprised a vast bulk of 1998's biggest hit singles. The first iMac came out in August, but wasn't super prevalent until the following year. No Limit and Puffy/Mase-era Bad Boy were still the biggest labels in hip hop, as they were for 11 of the 12 months of 1997.

In my honest opinion, the period from roughly autumn 1997 through summer 1998 was pretty much a time of cultural equilibrium, the quintessential "regular" late 90s, beginning about the time hardly any mid-90s influences were leftover from the past and ending once things like Pokémon, iMacs, Cash Money Records, and Britney Spears started to enter the mainstream. The only really notable overall changes that occurred during that time were Beavis & Butthead ending and Dawson's Creek starting. I really don't see how 1998 was "really the beginning of something new," aside from the last third of the year (which was only the very beginning of the shift into the quintessential Y2K era). The vast majority of late 90s introductions came out in 1997 and late 1996.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on04/13/16 at 12:49 pm

This feels off. 1998 is tremendously different from 1996 and 1997 in a lot of ways, probably almost all of them actually. There were a few mid '90s leftovers throughout '98, but they were mostly just minor chart hits and a couple surviving hairstyles and accessories. And all of these things were on their last legs by then. 1998 was really the beginning of something new.

Yeah I kinda see what you saying I kinda agree/disagree!!! :) Films like Saving Private Ryan for example, were when movies started to look brand new, Michael Jordan(the quintessential 90s basketball star) retired from the NBA ending the bulls dynasty, Family Matters, Animaniacs, Seinfeld, and Step By Step ended. Dawson and Sex and the City premiered, Nick's golden age ended and silver age started, Backstreet Boys and Brittney rose to prominence during the second half of the year. oh and the Monica Lewinsky scandal took place too! :o So you could make a strong argument that, 1997 and 1998 were both years of transition. I think the second half of 1998 was different from the first half, the first half was basically a continuation of late 1996 and 97, with the second half ushering in that 1999 culture. IMO, There should be a 1998 cultural debate, but that's pushing it.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on04/13/16 at 12:52 pm

1998 is actually pretty different from 1999-2001, much more so than people give it credit for. A lot of Y2K-era culture associated with that period, like rap-metal, latin pop, the peak of teen pop, American Pie, Family Guy, and even Pokémon, were not yet that popular in 1998, even though some were just getting their start; Pokémon may have been released internationally in autumn 1998, but it wasn't a fad yet and kids were still more interested in Power Rangers and early Nintendo 64 games. Classic 90s alternative songs like "Real World," "Father of Mine," "The Way," "It's All Been Done," and "Save Tonight" were still much more popular than nu-metal and rap-rock, and it was pretty much of the same type of sound that was popular in 1997. KorN released Follow the Leader and Kid Rock came out with Devil without a Cause, both on my sixth birthday, but neither of those albums reached the height of their popularity until mid-1999. Even acts like Garbage, the Smashing Pumpkins, and Alanis Morissette were still at the forefront of the rock scene. Britney Spears only burst onto the teen pop scene near the end of 1998; otherwise, the teen pop movement was highly comparable to what it was in 1997, with the Backstreet Boys, Spice Girls, and Savage Garden leading the way, although *NSYNC joined in the fun as well. 90s-style love ballads like "My Heart Will Go On," "My All," "All My Life," "I Don't Want to Miss a Thing," and "I'm Your Angel" still comprised a vast bulk of 1998's biggest hit singles. The first iMac came out in August, but wasn't super prevalent until the following year. No Limit and Puffy/Mase-era Bad Boy were still the biggest labels in hip hop, as they were for 11 of the 12 months of 1997.In my honest opinion, the period from roughly autumn 1997 through summer 1998 was pretty much a time of cultural equilibrium, the quintessential "regular" late 90s, beginning about the time hardly any mid-90s influences were leftover from the past and ending once things like Pokémon, iMacs, Cash Money Records, and Britney Spears started to enter the mainstream. The only really notable overall changes that occurred during that time were Beavis & Butthead ending and Dawson's Creek starting. I really don't see how 1998 was "really the beginning of something new," aside from the last third of the year (which was only the very beginning of the shift into the quintessential Y2K era). The vast majority of late 90s introductions came out in 1997 and late 1996.

Yes!!! Late 1996 until mid 1998 were the regular cultural late 90s before that 1999 type culture came in.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon04/13/16 at 3:01 pm

Films like Saving Private Ryan for example, were when movies started to look brand new,

How so? If anything, the film being a Tom Hanks drama makes it classic 90s. I think The Matrix and The Phantom Menace were the true trendsetters that ushered in that 21st century aesthetic to big budget action/fantasy/sci-fi films.

Nick's golden age ended and silver age started

Why is 1997 still a part of the golden age? It certainly wasn't the same as 1991-1996. Hey Arnold!, The Angry Beavers, Kenan & Kel, and KaBlam! were all on television by then, and old Doug, Rocko's Modern Life, and Ren & Stimpy were over. I'm guessing you feel that Aaahh!!! Real Monsters ending, CatDog and The Wild Thornberrys beginning, and Dil being introduced to Rugrats were the crucial tipping point?

Backstreet Boys and Brittney rose to prominence during the second half of the year.

The Backstreet Boys were already gigantic once summer 1997 hit and "Quit Playing Games (With My Heart)" was one of the biggest pop songs of the time. Internationally, they were already a sensation in summer 1996, beginning with "Get Down (You're the One for Me)." Britney Spears, on the other hand, did debut in late 1998, thus bringing teen pop to a whole new level of popularity, even though "Baby One More Time" isn't stylistically that different from Robyn's "Do You Know (What It Takes)."

I agree with you otherwise, even though I think late 1996 and the very beginning of 1997 are still predominantly mid-90s, despite the fact that they kicked the transition into full gear.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:mqg96on04/13/16 at 3:35 pm

Why is 1997 still a part of the golden age? It certainly wasn't the same as 1991-1996. Hey Arnold!, The Angry Beavers, Kenan & Kel, and KaBlam! were all on television by then, and old Doug, Rocko's Modern Life, and Ren & Stimpy were over. I'm guessing you feel that Aaahh!!! Real Monsters ending, CatDog and The Wild Thornberrys beginning, and Dil being introduced to Rugrats were the crucial tipping point?

Not a big expert on Nickelodeon's golden age, but from what I hear is 1997 was the year Nickelodeon transitioned from its golden age to its silver age. While 1997 was also the year Cartoon Network transitioned from its early age to its golden age. 1997 through 1998 seemed to be the years a lot of core 90's kid stations started going majority changes. It was the death of core 90's kid culture and the beginning of late 90's kid culture. FOX Kids popularity transitioning over to Kids WB is included in this as well. By mid 1998 it was all about golden age Cartoon Network.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on04/13/16 at 6:06 pm

How so? If anything, the film being a Tom Hanks drama makes it classic 90s. I think The Matrix and The Phantom Menace were the true trendsetters that ushered in that 21st century aesthetic to big budget action/fantasy/sci-fi films.

Why is 1997 still a part of the golden age? It certainly wasn't the same as 1991-1996. Hey Arnold!, The Angry Beavers, Kenan & Kel, and KaBlam! were all on television by then, and old Doug, Rocko's Modern Life, and Ren & Stimpy were over. I'm guessing you feel that Aaahh!!! Real Monsters ending, CatDog and The Wild Thornberrys beginning, and Dil being introduced to Rugrats were the crucial tipping point?

Really? ??? ;D I NEVER EVER considered SPR a classic 90s Tom Hanks film like Forrest Gump for example, when I first saw it in 2000 on VHS that movie LOOKED and FELT brand new.... despite the movie being two years old at that point. He also had Green Mile and Cast Away after that so......

Yup!!! late 1996 and 1997 saw Hey Arnold, Keenan and Kel, KaBlam, and Angry beavers debut. But Nick's golden age was still going strong until the things you talked about later took place. I consider Keenan and Kel and Hey Arnold hybrids of the golden age and silver age.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on04/13/16 at 6:14 pm

Not a big expert on Nickelodeon's golden age, but from what I hear is 1997 was the year Nickelodeon transitioned from its golden age to its silver age. While 1997 was also the year Cartoon Network transitioned from its early age to its golden age. 1997 through 1998 seemed to be the years a lot of core 90's kid stations started going majority changes. It was the death of core 90's kid culture and the beginning of late 90's kid culture. FOX Kids popularity transitioning over to Kids WB is included in this as well. By mid 1998 it was all about golden age Cartoon Network.

You think CN finally surpassed Nick in 1998? ??? I'll sound biased cause I didn't even know about CN until 2000, but when do I think Cartoon Network surpassed Nick? I think either when Dragon Ball Z's Funimation dub premiered in late 1999 or when Cartoon Cartoon Fridays started in Spring of 1999.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon04/13/16 at 6:42 pm

Really? ??? ;D I NEVER EVER considered SPR a classic 90s Tom Hanks film like Forrest Gump for example, when I first saw it in 2000 on VHS that movie LOOKED and FELT brand new.... despite the movie being two years old at that point. He also had Green Mile and Cast Away after that so......

World War II epics were hardly a new thing by then, just look at The English Patient and Schindler's List, for example. Also, The Green Mile and Cast Away came out during a time when popular culture was still predominantly 90s. Both of those films, as well as SPR, are basically just the final entries in Tom Hanks' dramatic golden age that began at the end of 1993 with Philadelphia.

Yup!!! late 1996 and 1997 saw Hey Arnold, Keenan and Kel, KaBlam, and Angry beavers debut. But Nick's golden age was still going strong until the things you talked about later took place. I consider Keenan and Kel and Hey Arnold hybrids of the golden age and silver age.

I guess "golden" is a pretty subjective term in this case. It seems like Hey Arnold! was far more popular than Aaahh!!! Real Monsters, not to mention both The Angry Beavers and KaBlam! ended near the conclusion of the regular Y2K era. Hey Arnold!, on the other hand, had a feature film in 2002 and was still airing new episodes through the very end of the Klasky Csupo era. That said, I think it's at least agreeable that Hey Arnold!, Kenan & Kel, The Angry Beavers, and KaBlam! were late 90s/Y2K shows, while Aaahh!!! Real Monsters was mid-90s.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:mqg96on04/13/16 at 7:04 pm

You think CN finally surpassed Nick in 1998? ??? I'll sound biased cause I didn't even know about CN until 2000, but when do I think Cartoon Network surpassed Nick? I think either when Dragon Ball Z's Funimation dub premiered in late 1999 or when Cartoon Cartoon Fridays started in Spring of 1999.

I thought the Funimation dub of DBZ premiered in mid 1998? Because 1998 is when DBZ and Sailor Moon both joined Toonami around the same time and that's when the block started getting popular. Even though TOM 1 didn't come until early 1999. Anyways, 1998 was in fact the first full year of CN's Powerhouse Era, and the whole Powerhouse age is considered as CN's golden age. You might have a point though. Late 1997-1998 are usually considered as the early years of CN's golden age. 1999-2002 was the peak of CN's golden age without a doubt. 2003-early 2004 are usually considered as the late years of CN's golden age. 1998 was really the set and stone year for Cartoon Network's golden age though. By then there were enough blocks, bumpers, Cartoon Cartoons, WB acquired shows, and anime around the channel for its popularity to begin skyrocketing.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on04/13/16 at 9:51 pm

I thought the Funimation dub of DBZ premiered in mid 1998? Because 1998 is when DBZ and Sailor Moon both joined Toonami around the same time and that's when the block started getting popular. Even though TOM 1 didn't come until early 1999. Anyways, 1998 was in fact the first full year of CN's Powerhouse Era, and the whole Powerhouse age is considered as CN's golden age. You might have a point though. Late 1997-1998 are usually considered as the early years of CN's golden age. 1999-2002 was the peak of CN's golden age without a doubt. 2003-early 2004 are usually considered as the late years of CN's golden age. 1998 was really the set and stone year for Cartoon Network's golden age though. By then there were enough blocks, bumpers, Cartoon Cartoons, WB acquired shows, and anime around the channel for its popularity to begin skyrocketing.

Nope, DBZ was still Ocean dub during the 1998-99 season. DBZ came out on Toonami in 1998, but that was still Ocean. It was September of 1999, when Funimation with Sean Schemmel and Chris Sabat took over.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:mqg96on04/13/16 at 10:22 pm

Nope, DBZ was still Ocean dub during the 1998-99 season. DBZ came out on Toonami in 1998, but that was still Ocean. It was September of 1999, when Funimation with Sean Schemmel and Chris Sabat took over.

You're right. When it comes to the Ocean dub or Funimation dub that's what was confusing me all this time. Thanks for the explanation for clearing things up! ;)

Although, DBZ's original run on Cartoon Network (or Toonami) still lasted from 1998-2003 though. 2005 DBZ returned to Toonami and reran all of the episodes but it was uncut.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:mach!ne_he@don04/13/16 at 10:50 pm

Not a big expert on Nickelodeon's golden age, but from what I hear is 1997 was the year Nickelodeon transitioned from its golden age to its silver age. While 1997 was also the year Cartoon Network transitioned from its early age to its golden age. 1997 through 1998 seemed to be the years a lot of core 90's kid stations started going majority changes. It was the death of core 90's kid culture and the beginning of late 90's kid culture. FOX Kids popularity transitioning over to Kids WB is included in this as well. By mid 1998 it was all about golden age Cartoon Network.

It's splitting hairs either way, but I always felt like 1998 was the year that core "'90s kid" culture truly died, if only for two simple reasons: the U.S. debut of Pokemon Red & Blue, and Dragon Ball Z's arrival on Toonami. The core '90s tradition of stereotypically quirky, off-beat, weirdly drawn cartoons spearheaded by Nick (think Rugrats, Doug, Rocko, ect.) was in it's waning days by mid 1998, and the anime explosion of the 1998-99 school year really helped finish it off.

Other things from 1998-99 that signaled a huge shift to me at the time were Brink! ushering in the golden age of Disney Channel Original Movies, CBS essentially getting rid of it's Saturday morning lineup and further sounding the death knell for the institution of Saturday Morning Cartoons, SNICK being transformed into the abysmal SNICK House, and the premiere of The Wild Thornberry's on Nick, which was the first show that I distinctly remember for some reason not feeling like a "true" Nicktoon.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on04/14/16 at 2:10 am

It's splitting hairs either way, but I always felt like 1998 was the year that core "'90s kid" culture truly died, if only for two simple reasons: the U.S. debut of Pokemon Red & Blue, and Dragon Ball Z's arrival on Toonami. The core '90s tradition of stereotypically quirky, off-beat, weirdly drawn cartoons spearheaded by Nick (think Rugrats, Doug, Rocko, ect.) was in it's waning days by mid 1998, and the anime explosion of the 1998-99 school year really helped finish it off.

Other things from 1998-99 that signaled a huge shift to me at the time were Brink! ushering in the golden age of Disney Channel Original Movies, CBS essentially getting rid of it's Saturday morning lineup and further sounding the death knell for the institution of Saturday Morning Cartoons, SNICK being transformed into the abysmal SNICK House, and the premiere of The Wild Thornberry's on Nick, which was the first show that I distinctly remember for some reason not feeling like a "true" Nicktoon.

Yup! ;) True ''90s kid'' culutre lasted from 1993-1998. 1999 was when that Late Gen Y kid culture was full swing! :D

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:mqg96on04/14/16 at 1:25 pm

Yup! ;) True ''90s kid'' culutre lasted from 1993-1998. 1999 was when that Late Gen Y kid culture was full swing! :D

This makes me bring up the question. How long did you think true 2000's kid culture lasted? I would go with 2003-2007 overall. 2003 being the beginning of core 2000's kid culture with the last gasp of late 90's kid culture. 2007 being the end of core 2000's kid culture and the first sign of late 2000's kid culture. Which makes 2004-2006 the absolute peak or center years for core 2000's kid culture.

BTW, this has NOTHING to do with generations. This is completely separate from that. This is about the the numerical decade.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on04/14/16 at 9:40 pm

This makes me bring up the question. How long did you think true 2000's kid culture lasted? I would go with 2003-2007 overall. 2003 being the beginning of core 2000's kid culture with the last gasp of late 90's kid culture. 2007 being the end of core 2000's kid culture and the first sign of late 2000's kid culture. Which makes 2004-2006 the absolute peak or center years for core 2000's kid culture.

BTW, this has NOTHING to do with generations. This is completely separate from that. This is about the the numerical decade.

I'm going to have to slightly disagree with you... by ONE year. I'd say 2004-2006. 2004 still had that late Gen Y feel tho, The first half of 2005 did as well, then the second half of 2005 was when Gen Z kid culutre started being ushered in slowly.. Then in 2006; specifically the SECOND HALF Gen Z kid culutre was here. 2007 was half true and half late 00s kid culture. Late 06 was the beginning of the late 00s culutre but... late 2007 was when late 00s kid culutre started.

As a matter of fact.... imo true 00s kid culutre was VERY VERY short lived.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

This makes me bring up the question. How long did you think true 2000's kid culture lasted?

Also.. if were talking FULL years, the late 90s/early 00s kid culutre lasted from 1999-2003. with late 1999-2002 being it's peak.

2004 the first half was too distinct from the second.

As a matter of fact... I could make a STRONG argument that late 1996-1998 was a mix of true 90s kid culutre(Animaniacs, Spider-man and X-MEN TAS, Jason David Frank era Power Rangers, Ahh Real Monsters) and late 90s kid culutre(Hey Arnold, Keenan and Kel, Pinky and the Brain, Superman TAS, Dexter's Lab)

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Given my age, I didn't think it was obviously! ;D ;) But it's nice to see you enjoyed ''your'' kid culture.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:cool123on04/16/16 at 10:33 pm

Given my age, I didn't think it was obviously! ;D ;) But it's nice to see you enjoyed ''your'' kid culture.

May I ask what didn't you enjoy about late 00s kid culture?

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on04/16/16 at 10:47 pm

May I ask what didn't you enjoy about late 00s kid culture?

That's simple. Don't get me wrong, but I enjoyed Jetix, due to the MARVEL/DC reruns. That was IT. I begun to move on to slightly more mature things.

But... everything that I grew up loving throughout out my childhood was over. I just thought Nick's nicktoons officially went to crap,Toonami went to crap, I thought Cartoon Network sold out when Fridays ended and I was NOT to fond of the shows Chowder, Flapjack, Squirrel boy, etc. and I HATED Disney Channel when the Hannah Montana and HSM era went full swing. and don't get me started on the Wii.... I just didn't like the change in the kid culture. I missed the late 90s and early-mid 2000s.

It just was not for me anymore, I knew then that it was for a whole brand new generation, guys your age.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:mqg96on04/17/16 at 8:40 am

That's simple. Don't get me wrong, but I enjoyed Jetix, due to the MARVEL/DC reruns. That was IT. I begun to move on to slightly more mature things.

But... everything that I grew up loving throughout out my childhood was over. I just thought Nick's nicktoons officially went to crap, Toonami went to crap, I thought Cartoon Network sold out when Fridays ended and I was NOT to fond of the shows Chowder, Flapjack, Squirrel boy, etc. and I HATED Disney Channel when the Hannah Montana and HSM era went full swing. and don't get me started on the Wii.... I just didn't like the change in the kid culture. I missed the late 90s and early-mid 2000s.

It just was not for me anymore, I knew then that it was for a whole brand new generation, guys your age.

Yep, I pretty much agree with everything you said. The Wii was only good for Super Mario Galaxy and Super Smash Bros Brawl. But you want more variety in a console, and since then only the Playstation and XBOX have given us a lot more variety in its games, but of course the direction the gaming industry has gone in lately hasn't been good either. I'm thinking about getting Half Life 4 for the PC or XBOX One soon.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Baltimoreianon04/17/16 at 9:04 am

That's simple. Don't get me wrong, but I enjoyed Jetix, due to the MARVEL/DC reruns. That was IT. I begun to move on to slightly more mature things.

But... everything that I grew up loving throughout out my childhood was over. I just thought Nick's nicktoons officially went to crap,Toonami went to crap, I thought Cartoon Network sold out when Fridays ended and I was NOT to fond of the shows Chowder, Flapjack, Squirrel boy, etc. and I HATED Disney Channel when the Hannah Montana and HSM era went full swing. and don't get me started on the Wii.... I just didn't like the change in the kid culture. I missed the late 90s and early-mid 2000s.

It just was not for me anymore, I knew then that it was for a whole brand new generation, guys your age.

Well to me, I didn't really care for Disney Channel since 2007. As I mentioned before, it didn't really have that much variety. I thought it wasn't as good as Nickelodeon and Cartoon Network (though it was in a dark age for you guys) back in the late 2000s.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:cool123on04/17/16 at 10:21 am

Well to me, I didn't really care for Disney Channel since 2007. As I mentioned before, it didn't really have that much variety. I thought it wasn't as good as Nickelodeon and Cartoon Network (though it was in a dark age for you guys) back in the late 2000s.

Agreed. I was never really a Disney guy. I watched the Suite Life of Zack and Cody, and That's so Raven reruns on there back in the late 2000s but that was it. I watched Nickelodeon and CN a lot back in the late 2000s.

P.S. CN didn't go into their dark ages until the fall of 07 but I personally think that CN's true dark age was the 2009-2010 school year.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:mqg96on04/17/16 at 10:52 am

Agreed. I was never really a Disney guy. I watched the Suite Life of Zack and Cody, and That's so Raven reruns on there back in the late 2000s but that was it. I watched Nickelodeon and CN a lot back in the late 2000s.

P.S. CN didn't go into their dark ages until the fall of 07 but I personally think that CN's true dark age was the 2009-2010 school year.

I had mixed feelings about Disney Channel. I discovered the channel when I was very little but I didn't start watching it on a regular basis until the summer before I started 2nd grade, because That's So Raven really caught my attention. Before 2nd grade I only watched Cartoon Network the most and Toon Disney sometimes, Nickelodeon with my cousins. I know a lot of men in general whether they're on the internet or friends in school did not watch the channel at all growing up. Most of us were either Nickelodeon and/or Cartoon Network people. Hell, even my 7 year old sister watches Nickelodeon the most and Cartoon Network sometimes. She doesn't watch Disney at all. Disney Channel had more female viewers than anybody, but pre-2006 Disney Channel used to have a lot more diversity on the channel when boys could relate too, not just girls. A lot of the elements in sitcoms like That's So Raven, Even Stevens, Suite Life of Zack & Cody and much more boys would also find enjoyable, and of course many of the cartoons as well. Throughout the late 2000's Disney Channel became way too girly and teenybopper music style, the diversity was lost and all of the sitcoms felt the same with that teenybopper music genre, and there were hardly any cartoons by then either.

Disney Channel used to be very diverse. The Proud Family had so much African American cultural backgrounds. Even Stevens had that get to gather family culture with a brother and sister. That's So Raven was very diverse, so many life relating stories and moral lessons throughout the series, especially seasons 1-3. Suite Life of Zack & Cody and Phil of the Future had that "fun" type feel to it with the gadgets and the adventures in the hotel with a balanced roster of characters. American Dragon Jake Long was half white and half Asian. People may have complained about him acting "too black", but I was glad he didn't have to be one of those stereotypical Asian people. Jake Long was from the city in Manhattan, New York with an original personality. He was a slacker at times especially in school, but a comedian and a great superhero (dragon) who would go on adventures saving the magical world from the Huntsmen attacking and trying to handle his relationship between Rose and himself. When it comes to the Disney Channel shows created since 2006, Phineas & Ferb and Suite Life on Deck (even tho I didn't care for it) have been the only exceptions, but two shows weren't enough to save the channel from the rest of its disastrous shows.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:cool123on04/17/16 at 11:56 am

I had mixed feelings about Disney Channel. I discovered the channel when I was very little but I didn't start watching it on a regular basis until the summer before I started 2nd grade, because That's So Raven really caught my attention. Before 2nd grade I only watched Cartoon Network the most and Toon Disney sometimes, Nickelodeon with my cousins. I know a lot of men in general whether they're on the internet or friends in school did not watch the channel at all growing up. Most of us were either Nickelodeon and/or Cartoon Network people. Hell, even my 7 year old sister watches Nickelodeon the most and Cartoon Network sometimes. She doesn't watch Disney at all. Disney Channel had more female viewers than anybody, but pre-2006 Disney Channel used to have a lot more diversity on the channel when boys could relate too, not just girls. A lot of the elements in sitcoms like That's So Raven, Even Stevens, Suite Life of Zack & Cody and much more boys would also find enjoyable, and of course many of the cartoons as well. Throughout the late 2000's Disney Channel became way too girly and teenybopper music style, the diversity was lost and all of the sitcoms felt the same with that teenybopper music genre, and there were hardly any cartoons by then either.

Disney Channel used to be very diverse. The Proud Family had so much African American cultural backgrounds. Even Stevens had that get to gather family culture with a brother and sister. That's So Raven was very diverse, so many life relating stories and moral lessons throughout the series, especially seasons 1-3. Suite Life of Zack & Cody and Phil of the Future had that "fun" type feel to it with the gadgets and the adventures in the hotel with a balanced roster of characters. American Dragon Jake Long was half white and half Asian. People may have complained about him acting "too black", but I was glad he didn't have to be one of those stereotypical Asian people. Jake Long was from the city in Manhattan, New York with an original personality. He was a slacker at times especially in school, but a comedian and a great superhero (dragon) who would go on adventures saving the magical world from the Huntsmen attacking and trying to handle his relationship between Rose and himself. When it comes to the Disney Channel shows created since 2006, Phineas & Ferb and Suite Life on Deck (even tho I didn't care for it) have been the only exceptions, but two shows weren't enough to save the channel from the rest of its disastrous shows.

Oh yeah I use to watch Phineas and Ferb a lot back in the late 2000s. Which one do you think was better in the late 2000s Nick or CN?

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Baltimoreianon04/17/16 at 12:16 pm

Oh yeah I use to watch Phineas and Ferb a lot back in the late 2000s. Which one do you think was better in the late 2000s Nick or CN?

In any case, I think mqg96 likes late '00s Nick more than late '00s CN. Or unless he says something after this post that counters it.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:mqg96on04/17/16 at 1:50 pm

In any case, I think mqg96 likes late '00s Nick more than late '00s CN. Or unless he says something after this post that counters it.

I didn't care for either of those since my peak childhood was over by then, but I would take the state of late 00's Nick over the state of late 00's CN and Disney.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:mqg96on04/17/16 at 1:55 pm

Oh yeah I use to watch Phineas and Ferb a lot back in the late 2000s. Which one do you think was better in the late 2000s Nick or CN?

Late 00's Nick. Since it had iCarly and the tail end of Drake & Josh and Avatar: The Last Airbender. Late 00's CN had no original shows that interested me and it made poor decisions by cancelling the good blocks and abandoning its name by putting live-action shows on there. I agree that Nickelodeon is a lot worse now than it was back in the late 00's. As much as I didn't like Victorious or Sam & Cat, hell, those were a lot better than the sitcoms that's currently on the network now.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:cool123on04/17/16 at 2:08 pm

Late 00's Nick. Since it had iCarly and the tail end of Drake & Josh and Avatar: The Last Airbender. Late 00's CN had no original shows that interested me and it made poor decisions by cancelling the good blocks and abandoning its name by putting live-action shows on there. I agree that Nickelodeon is a lot worse now than it was back in the late 00's. As much as I didn't like Victorious or Sam & Cat, hell, those were a lot better than the sitcoms that's currently on the network now.

The only OG shows from the late 00s that are from CN that I liked were Flapjack and Chowder. Chowder for its 4th wall jokes and Flapjack for its weird surrealism.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Baltimoreianon04/17/16 at 2:36 pm

Late 00's Nick. Since it had iCarly and the tail end of Drake & Josh and Avatar: The Last Airbender. Late 00's CN had no original shows that interested me and it made poor decisions by cancelling the good blocks and abandoning its name by putting live-action shows on there. I agree that Nickelodeon is a lot worse now than it was back in the late 00's. As much as I didn't like Victorious or Sam & Cat, hell, those were a lot better than the sitcoms that's currently on the network now.

There was also Nicktoons Network in the late 2000s. Come to think of it, pretty much anything from Nickelodeon was better in the late 2000s than now.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on04/17/16 at 3:18 pm

Agreed. I was never really a Disney guy. I watched the Suite Life of Zack and Cody, and That's so Raven reruns on there back in the late 2000s but that was it. I watched Nickelodeon and CN a lot back in the late 2000s.

P.S. CN didn't go into their dark ages until the fall of 07 but I personally think that CN's true dark age was the 2009-2010 school year.

I think that CN started heading for the dark ages when the YES era started, then in 2007 when Fridays ended and the awful shows started appearing that's when it was official.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on04/17/16 at 3:39 pm

I'm sorry to go off topic again, and I Love Quaaman.... but this made me cringe. :o :-\\ Also Quaaman is about 23 years old, but still! 8-PS4aZitPxpoQ

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on04/17/16 at 3:40 pm

DVoMdEDnmt4Good ol fashion R&B!!

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:mqg96on04/17/16 at 3:53 pm

I think that CN started heading for the dark ages when the YES era started, then in 2007 when Fridays ended and the awful shows started appearing that's when it was official.

Same here. Regular Show is the only CN show I'll watch on rare occasions whenever I'm just chillin.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Baltimoreianon04/17/16 at 4:00 pm

Same here. Regular Show is the only CN show I'll watch on rare occasions whenever I'm just chillin.

I only watch Cartoon Network if there's a new episode of We Bare Bears or the 2016 PPG reboot.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:mxcrashxmon04/17/16 at 4:52 pm

I didn't care for either of those since my peak childhood was over by then, but I would take the state of late 00's Nick over the state of late 00's CN and Disney.

The only OG shows from the late 00s that are from CN that I liked were Flapjack and Chowder. Chowder for its 4th wall jokes and Flapjack for its weird surrealism.

I think that CN started heading for the dark ages when the YES era started, then in 2007 when Fridays ended and the awful shows started appearing that's when it was official.

There was also Nicktoons Network in the late 2000s. Come to think of it, pretty much anything from Nickelodeon was better in the late 2000s than now.

I must be in the minority again because I'd take late 00s CN over late 00s Nick. Yeah I did watch Nick at that time, but only for a few shows as everything else was unappealing to me. I understand that CN was in its dark age during that era, but most of the shows on there were decent. Here are the videos for comparison.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Baltimoreianon04/17/16 at 5:27 pm

I must be in the minority again because I'd take late 00s CN over late 00s Nick. Yeah I did watch Nick at that time, but only for a few shows as everything else was unappealing to me. I understand that CN was in its dark age during that era, but most of the shows on there were decent. Here are the videos for comparison.

Cartoon Network

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9XOBdL5BDA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4QaRhZGC6w

Nickelodeon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK-28EdRQIY

Well yeah, I really do miss the Noods bumpers. But it's not like I'll take it more than Nickelodeon. I mean, the late 2000s weren't that awesome towards TV (except for Comedy Central, HBO, and ShowTime), but at least it's better than today's TV in my opinion. Or maybe I'll just take 2004-2007 children's TV more than 2008-2010 children's TV, IMO.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:mxcrashxmon04/17/16 at 5:55 pm

Well yeah, I really do miss the Noods bumpers. But it's not like I'll take it more than Nickelodeon. I mean, the late 2000s weren't that awesome towards TV (except for Comedy Central, HBO, and ShowTime), but at least it's better than today's TV in my opinion. Or maybe I'll just take 2004-2007 children's TV more than 2008-2010 children's TV, IMO. True on that. I feel like other than some of the good shows on today, there's not many out there are excellent to where everyone is watching it. As for your second comment, I'd take that mid 00s era more than the one I mentioned (Late 00s CN is #3 or #4 to me in terms of kids channels)

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Baltimoreianon04/17/16 at 6:15 pm

True on that. I feel like other than some of the good shows on today, there's not many out there are excellent to where everyone is watching it. As for your second comment, I'd take that mid 00s era more than the one I mentioned (Late 00s CN is #3 or #4 to me in terms of kids channels)

Yeah, 2004-2007 was simply the best to me. I could mention the early 2000s as awesome too, because that's when most 2000s shows premiered.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on04/17/16 at 7:03 pm

Yeah, 2004-2007 was simply the best to me. I could mention the early 2000s as awesome too, because that's when most 2000s shows premiered.

So what do you think of mid 10s television?

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Baltimoreianon04/17/16 at 7:11 pm

So what do you think of mid 10s television?

It's alright. I'd say it's better than early '10s television, since it was a dark age in my personal opinion. It made Cartoon Network, Disney XD, and Netflix enjoyable, but I'm still not amused with Nickelodeon and Discovery TV's actions. It's not certainly the best era, but at least it improved.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on04/17/16 at 7:14 pm

It's alright. I'd say it's better than early '10s television, since it was a dark age in my personal opinion. It made Cartoon Network, Disney XD, and Netflix enjoyable, but I'm still not amused with Nickelodeon and Discovery TV's actions. It's not certainly the best era, but at least it improved.

I wasn't talking about kid culture......

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Baltimoreianon04/17/16 at 7:34 pm

I wasn't talking about kid culture......

Well for mainstream TV culture, I guess Netflix has been dominating teen/adult programming. There are some cable TV shows like The Walking Dead, American Horror Story, Archer, Game of Thrones, and Better Call Saul that are decently popular for this decade. However, Netflix has been kicking their asses since many people think cable isn't good anymore.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on04/17/16 at 7:45 pm

Well for mainstream TV culture, I guess Netflix has been dominating teen/adult programming. There are some cable TV shows like The Walking Dead, American Horror Story, Archer, Game of Thrones, and Better Call Saul that are decently popular for this decade. However, Netflix has been kicking their asses since many people think cable isn't good anymore.

and people including Jerry Seinfeld think Network tv is dead!! ;D

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Baltimoreianon04/17/16 at 7:52 pm

and people including Jerry Seinfeld think Network tv is dead!! ;D

Yeah. ;)

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Toonon04/19/16 at 12:28 am

Well for mainstream TV culture, I guess Netflix has been dominating teen/adult programming. There are some cable TV shows like The Walking Dead, American Horror Story, Archer, Game of Thrones, and Better Call Saul that are decently popular for this decade. However, Netflix has been kicking their asses since many people think cable isn't good anymore.

I wonder when cable TV will truly die (assuming it ever does). Kind of wondering if Cable TV will still exist by 2030.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Baltimoreianon04/19/16 at 5:41 am

I wonder when cable TV will truly die (assuming it ever does). Kind of wondering if Cable TV will still exist by 2030.

I'm not sure. People still use cable TV, but not as much during the 80s, 90s, or even the 2000s.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Howardon04/19/16 at 3:07 pm

I wonder when cable TV will truly die (assuming it ever does). Kind of wondering if Cable TV will still exist by 2030.

I'm pretty sure it will still exist.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Philip Enoon04/19/16 at 3:42 pm

I'm pretty sure it will still exist.Cable television does still exist, I am watching it right now.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Howardon04/20/16 at 7:27 am

Cable television does still exist, I am watching it right now.

I enjoy cable TV.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Philip Enoon04/20/16 at 7:35 am

I enjoy cable TV.You can view what is on other channels while watching another.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:ArcticFoxon04/20/16 at 11:52 pm

Okay, I know I talk a lot about 1997, but since you enjoy debating about this matter, and because I'm still intrigued to hear your input in-detail, here we go.

There are many reasons why I think 1997 is a mid '90s year-distinctly different from 1998, and the differences are quite obvious in my opinion.

First of all the musics. 1997 music is not different from 1994. It's a different era from 1998. You act as if teen pop exploded right when the Spice Girls released "Wannabe" in America, but really it was only a small trend. I said it before, and I'll say it again, there were only ten teen pop songs that hit it big on the American mainstream charts in 1997. The songs that truly defined that year were "Don't Let Go (Love)", "Return of the Mack", "For You I Will", "Bitch", "Barely Breathing", "Semi-Charmed Life" (which I find to be very reminiscent of the 1993 hit "Two Princes"), "The Freshmen", "Staring at the Sun", "Every Time I Close My Eyes", "Da' Dip", and "Sunny Came Home". All of these songs could have achieved major success in 1993. For "Mack", even earlier-1991. The early '90s still had an influence on popular music in 1997. Hell, even 1998 had a few early '90s-sounding songs that became hits: "Father", "My Heart Will Go On", "Adia", "Sex and Candy", "Kiss the Rain", "Wherever You Go", "Friend of Mine" (the regular version, not the remix), and "The One I Gave My Heart To". All of these could have been popular in 1993 as well. "Bittersweet Symphony" could have popular in 1994 also. "Still Not a Player" also vaguely reminds me of "Baby-Baby-Baby" because of the pianos. The early '90s had this warm, muffled, vintage feel to their production that was especially common in hip-hop, but here's the 411: It wasn't unique to the early '90s. The mid '90s and even some of the late '90s had that kind of production sound to it as well. It's called analog. Ever since music production went digital sometime in 1998 I've noticed that songs have this cold, sterile, crisp feel to it. Especially in the early 2000's. Whenever a song (especially a rap song) has a warm, vintage sound to it, people are quick to label it as "early '90s", when really it was just the production of classic '90s music in general. And it's important not to leave 1997 and 1998 out of that.

Then you have the fashions. In 1997, people were dressing exactly the same as they were in 1994 and maybe even 1993. Whether it was Swingers or Clueless, Pulp Fiction or The Craft, all of those styles were already in by the time their respective movies were released in theaters, and had been for some time. While your low-end, default, everyday lazy outfits were flannel and baggy jeans in this time period, people obviously put a lot more effort into their style game when the occasion was only just slightly more special. Every one of those things was out as out can be in 1998. While everyday clothes may have improved a lot in the second half of 1998, it didn't get better beyond that. When it came to formalwear, everything got more colorful and the fits and cuts changed, but it looked a lot worse than the more timeless 1993-1997 formal ensembles. Girls didn't try to emulate Spice Girls in the real world until the second half of 1998 and guys didn't ditch their grunge clothes for A&F outfits until around the same time. It was just a mess to be alive.

Your description of "Y2K-era shows" is really silly. It's just television shows. It's not affected by the trendy attitudes of society like music and fashion are; certainly not to the same extent if it is. Television also has a much wider audience than popular music does.

I'll agree with you on movies and video games, although I don't think the '90s had any meaningful widespread trends in these industries. Hugely popular franchises, sure, but not trends itself. The producers were pretty much free to do whatever they pleased. This is why the '90s had such great films and video games; because they weren't bound by trends.

Honestly, the more I think about it, the less I start to see "the Y2K era" as a proper cultural era. It really wasn't. All the Y2K era was was about two things: 1) The excitement for the year 2000. 2) The paranoia of the Y2K bug-in which computers would fail to work and every nations' nuclear weapons would go off and eliminate the human race from planet earth. It was really just a psychological event in people's heads. It didn't actually affect pop culture. What you see (and everyone else besides me does apparently) is in actuality the natural progression of change through the passage of time. Old trends die off as people get tired of them and new trends come in to take their place. We also see the '90s very differently. I see 1997 as the exact same era as 1994, whereas you see 1997 as the exact same era as 2000; I hate teen pop, you love it; I don't think Y2K is a real era, whereas you think it's its own period for popular culture bridging the '90s and aughts. Frankly, the reason why you view things the way you do is because you're a Millennial. I am too, but I'm the black sheep of my generation. You have a very Millennial mindset, much more so than you would probably admit to yourself. Millennials aka "90s Kids" are more likely to pair up 1997 with 2000 (and view teen pop favorably), whereas I notice Generation X aka '90s teens tend to pair up 1997 with 1994 when they ignore the teen pop (which they hate).

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon04/21/16 at 3:11 am

There are many reasons why I think 1997 is a mid '90s year-distinctly different from 1998, and the differences are quite obvious in my opinion.

Oh, yay! Here we go!

First of all the musics. 1997 music is not different from 1994. It's a different era from 1998.

It is different from 1994, in a lot of ways. Yes, there are some similarities, and there are plenty of songs from 1997 that could have also been hits in 1994, but that certainly doesn't make it closer to that year than 1998. There are also plenty of songs from 1998 and even 1999 and 2000 to a smaller degree that could have been popular in 1993 or 1994.

You act as if teen pop exploded right when the Spice Girls released "Wannabe" in America, but really it was only a small trend. I said it before, and I'll say it again, there were only ten teen pop songs that hit it big on the American mainstream charts in 1997.

Actually, the number is higher if you look beyond just the Billboard Year-End Chart for 1997, particularly since back in the 90s, songs had to be commercially released as singles to appear on the Hot 100, even though they could still be promoted as airplay hits. Hanson's "Where's the Love" made it to #8 on the Mainstream Top 40 during the summer, and the Backstreet Boys' "As Long As You Love Me" was extremely popular during the last two months of the year, making it all the way to #5 by years end. "Breaking All the Rules" by She Moves, while not a huge hit on the Billboard Hot 100, did quite well on the Mainstream Top 40 around the same time and peaked at #16, higher than a majority of the songs in the Billboard Year-End Chart. I think you could also make an argument that Imani Coppola's "Legend of a Cowgirl," which peaked at #21 on the Mainstream Top 40, is teen pop, because even though it has a more experimental sound than Britney Spears (though even acts like the Spice Girls and Vitamin C integrated a multitude of influences in their music), it's pretty much of the same cheesy girl power spirit of the Spice Girls and other female teenybopper artists of the period. Robyn's "Show Me Love," though absent from the year-end chart (it's on the 1998 chart because it remained popular at the beginning of that year), already achieved airplay success throughout autumn, making it into the top 10 of the Mainstream Top 40 by mid-October. Even Savage Garden's "Truly Madly Deeply," despite peaking in 1998, was already a gigantic airplay hit by the time winter hit, making it to #6 during the last week for 1997. Besides these airplay-only hits, The Spice Girls had "Spice Up Your Life" peak on the Billboard Hot 100 on November 29, 1997, while Hanson's "I Will Come to You" peaked at #9 for the week of December 13, 1997 (their absence on the Billboard Year-End Chart will be addressed later). Nu Flavor can also be factored into the teen pop movement in 1997, since they had both "Sweet Sexy Thing" and "Heaven" that year; they didn't do well on the Billboard Hot 100, but they both made an impact on the Rhythmic Top 40, peaking within the top 10 during that year. When you take into account all of these songs, in addition to the ten listed on the Billboard Year-End Chart of 1997, that makes 20 teen pop songs that made a significant chart impact in 1997. It's not quite as much as 1999, but come on, that's got to count for something, especially considering 1996 had absolutely nothing besides "The Earth, The Sun, The Rain" (which is targeted to Late X, anyway).

How was it a small trend? I'm sorry, but you're clearly underestimating teen pop's significance to 1997 in music. It's not like those 10 songs, plus the 10 others from the Mainstream Top 40, Rhythmic Top 40, and late Billboard Hot 100, were "small", either. #10 ("Wannabe"), #11 ("Quit Playing Games (With My Heart)"), and #12 ("MMMBop") on the Billboard Year-End Chart is pretty notable, if you ask me, not to mention three others ("I Want You," "Say You'll Be There," and "Do You Know What It Takes") are within the top 30, while two ("2 Become 1" and "Invisible Man") are in the top 50. That isn't just some minor, flavor-of-the-week, push-it-to-the-side fad, that is a huge shift in popular music!

In fact, to put it into perspective, let's have a closer look at the Billboard Year-End Chart for 1998. First of all, these were the teen pop songs that appeared on the 1998 list:

That's 13 songs, 5 of which were already popular in late 1997 ("Truly Madly Deeply," "Show Me Love," "I Will Come to You," "Quit Playing Games (With My Heart)," and "Spice Up Your Life." Additionally, the average rank on the chart is much lower than for 1997, with only one song in the top 30 ("Everybody (Backstreet's Back)") that wasn't yet a hit late during the previous year (though it was originally a hit in Europe in summer 1997). "I Will Come to You"and "Spice Up Your Life" weren't really even significant that significant at all in 1998, as the former had fallen to #17 in the first week of 1998, while the latter was at #24 (the following week, they were at #21 and #33, respectively). To be fair, I will also factor in "I Know Where It's At," "Heaven" (already popular in 1997), "This Is How We Party," "As Long As You Love Me" (already huge in late 1997), "Do You Really Want Me (Show Respect)," "Tearin' Up My Heart," "To the Moon and Back" (already popular in mid-1997, though it did better in autumn 1998), "I'll Never Break Your Heart," "Baby One More Time," "Stop," "Cleopatra's Theme," and the "Cupid"-ish "(God Must Have Spent) A Little More Time on You," thus bringing the total number of notable teen pop songs in 1998 to 25, but when you consider my previous statements, teen pop's popularity in 1998 was more or less the same as it was in 1997.

The songs that truly defined that year were "Don't Let Go (Love)", "Return of the Mack", "For You I Will", "Bitch", "Barely Breathing", "Semi-Charmed Life" (which I find to be very reminiscent of the 1993 hit "Two Princes"), "The Freshmen", "Staring at the Sun", "Every Time I Close My Eyes", "Da' Dip", and "Sunny Came Home". All of these songs could have achieved major success in 1993. For "Mack", even earlier-1991.

"Don't Let Go" was really more definitive to winter 1996/1997, the last calendar season that I consider more mid-90s than late 90s. By the start of spring, it had already fallen well below the top 10.

"Return of the Mack" originally came out in Europe in Spring 1996, but it actually sounds more late 90s to me than early 90s. Compare its production to Five's "It's the Things You Do," a huge hit from the beginning of 1999. It definitely sounds retro, but at the same time, it really isn't your typical early or mid-90s song, either. I can't possibly imagine it being made in 1991 because it lacks the swift new-jack swing rhythms and instrumentation style that were typical of urban hits that year, like "Now That We Found Love," "Rico Suave," and "Motownphilly."

"For You I Will" is definitely targeted at Generation X, but it still sounds more late 90s to me. It's in the same category as songs like "I'm Your Angel," "I Believe I Can Fly," "How Do I Live," "All My Life," and "I Don't Want to Miss a Thing." It's highly melodic, yet poppier and less arena-tailored than "Kiss from a Rose," "I Swear," and "I'd Lie for You (And That's the Truth)." It could probably be a hit in 1993, but not without less synthesized, more gated production.

Meredith Brooks' "Bitch" is one of the few huge alternative songs from 1997 that sounds distinctly mid-90s to me, due to its angsty lyrics, laid-back swing beat, and snarling guitars, all in the spirit of Alanis Morissette's Jagged Little Pill, but it does not sound like something from 1993 or even 1994.

"Barely Breathing" and "Semi-Charmed Life" are stylistically not that different from pop rock earlier in the decade, but for nuanced reasons, they both strike me as more Y2K era. The former is a bit mellower and poppier than your average alternative song from the mid-90s. It's hard to describe really, but it seems far more like the type of song you'd hear on an adult contemporary radio station around 1998-2003 than in 1993-1996. You are right that "Semi-Charmed Life" is similar to the Spin Doctors' "Two Princes" in its production, but so is Nine Days' "Absolutely (Story of a Girl)" – does that make it a mid-90s song, too? In fact, one thing that distinguishes "Semi-Charmed Life" as late 90s, besides Third Eye Blind strictly peaking from 1997-2003, is the rapping during the verses. This was a very common trend in pop-rock music from the Y2K era, but less so in the mid-90s. You do have Beck's "Loser" from 1994, but the rapping in that is of a completely different style and isn't anything like the rapid-fire rhymes from "Semi-Charmed Life," "Butterfly," "One Week," and several others from the Y2K era. Same applies with groups like 311, Beastie Boys, and Rage Against the Machine, who were more underground and had a more distorted guitar sound.

"The Freshmen" is pretty much just a straightforward alternative rock ballad. It doesn't scream mid-90s or late 90s either way. Same goes with "Staring at the Sun," although "Discotheque" sounds more late 90s to me, since breakbeat techno was a pretty notable trend during that period.

"Every Time I Close My Eyes" definitely sounds mid-90s, I will give you that, although it peaked only in winter at the start of 1997 and not the core of the year.

"Da' Dip" could have been a hit in 1993, since that was the first year that the 90s-style, sports event miami bass genre really exploded, but it had some prevalence in 1998 ("Raise the Roof," "Time After Time") and even 2000 ("Who Let the Dogs Out"), so it doesn't totally place 1997 in the mid-90s category.

"Sunny Came Home" is more in the vein of adult contemporary songs from the late 90s, early 2000s, and even mid-2000s. I mentioned before how it has a similar feel to Ashlee Simpson's "Pieces of Me" despite being more mature, but it also isn't really the same as "I'm the Only One," "Strong Enough," or "Do You Sleep?". It's really hard to specifically describe the differences between mid-90s adult contemporary versus beyond, but it just feels more connected to songs like Avril Lavigne's "I'm with You," Train's "Drops of Jupiter," and Sheryl Crow's cover of "The First Cut Is the Deepest" than almost anything from the mid-90s.

Referring back to the Billboard Year-End Chart for 1998, these were some of the biggest hits from that year:

Additionally, there are a lot of songs at the top of the list that carried over from 1997, like "How Do I Live" (#5), "Candle in the Wind 1997" (#8), "I Don't Want to Wait" (#10) and "A Song for Mama" (#30). Once again, the songs that "defined" 1998, like 1997, were predominantly soft, melodic ballads and other Gen-X-oriented tracks. Still, teen pop was a force that year, in the same way it couldn't be ignored in 1997, despite the genre peaking in 1999 and 2000.

The early '90s still had an influence on popular music in 1997. Hell, even 1998 had a few early '90s-sounding songs that became hits: "Father", "My Heart Will Go On", "Adia", "Sex and Candy", "Kiss the Rain", "Wherever You Go", "Friend of Mine" (the regular version, not the remix), and "The One I Gave My Heart To". All of these could have been popular in 1993 as well.

I think you exaggerate how similar pre-1999 late 90s music is to early 90s songs. If you ask me, the early 90s were closer to the late 80s than even the mid-90s, except for 1993. Even during that year, however, the new-jack swing movement that started in the late 80s was still the dominant sound in pop, and a lot of rock songs had a pretty outdated feel to them, i.e., "Cats in the Cradle" and "Break It Down Again."

Consider, too, the fact that for any given year, the Billboard Year-End chart actually begins with December of the previous year and ends in November. Additionally, the weekly chart is usually issued half a month in advance of its date. In 1997's case, that would presumably put hits near the end of the year like "Spice Up Your Life" and "Show Me Love" off the chart, despite peaking in 1997, while holdovers from December 1996 (as well as mid-November, technically) such as "Don't Let Go," "Change the World," "When You're Gone," "Twisted," and many more, have drastically inflated placement or wouldn't otherwise even be on the chart in the first place ("Twisted" had already fallen to #25 in the January 4 issue of Billboard).

"Bittersweet Symphony" could have popular in 1994 also.

Eh, I doubt it'd be made then. It was one of the pioneering songs of the post-britpop movement, which really took off in mid-1997 and eventually led to bands like Coldplay.

"Still Not a Player" also vaguely reminds me of "Baby-Baby-Baby" because of the pianos.

Pianos alone are not enough to make a comparison to something like "Baby-Baby-Baby," which has a super old-sounding beat, complete with 80s gating and triangle hits. "Still Not a Player" has more in common with Thalia's "I Want You" from 2003; is that song also vaguely like "Baby-Baby-Baby?"

The early '90s had this warm, muffled, vintage feel to their production that was especially common in hip-hop, but here's the 411: It wasn't unique to the early '90s. The mid '90s and even some of the late '90s had that kind of production sound to it as well. It's called analog. Ever since music production went digital sometime in 1998 I've noticed that songs have this cold, sterile, crisp feel to it. Especially in the early 2000's. Whenever a song (especially a rap song) has a warm, vintage sound to it, people are quick to label it as "early '90s", when really it was just the production of classic '90s music in general. And it's important not to leave 1997 and 1998 out of that.

What is this "warm," "muffled" feel that you speak of? When I think of early 90s, this is more what comes to my mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm6DO_7px1I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXqPjx94YMg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmH4_pr6mH0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LB3DDv46-Vw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SbUC-UaAxE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2AitTPI5U0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY84MRnxVzo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byEGjLU2egA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDLiVwpv89s

None of those songs sound like they would be relevant in 1997 or 1998. Heck, they wouldn't even be that likely to be huge in the mid-90s, either. If you're going to compare the early 90s so heavily to the late 90s, can you give me some more specific examples of early 90s songs that resemble mid and late 90s ones?

Then you have the fashions. In 1997, people were dressing exactly the same as they were in 1994 and maybe even 1993. Whether it was Swingers or Clueless, Pulp Fiction or The Craft, all of those styles were already in by the time their respective movies were released in theaters, and had been for some time. While your low-end, default, everyday lazy outfits were flannel and baggy jeans in this time period, people obviously put a lot more effort into their style game when the occasion was only just slightly more special. Every one of those things was out as out can be in 1998. While everyday clothes may have improved a lot in the second half of 1998, it didn't get better beyond that. When it came to formalwear, everything got more colorful and the fits and cuts changed, but it looked a lot worse than the more timeless 1993-1997 formal ensembles. Girls didn't try to emulate Spice Girls in the real world until the second half of 1998 and guys didn't ditch their grunge clothes for A&F outfits until around the same time. It was just a mess to be alive.

Here are some photos from yearbooks for the 1997-1998 school year (photos are usually taken near the start of the year):

Admittedly, there are some differences between women's fashion in 1997 and the few years following, the most notable being the fancier dresses, but I don't think 1997 screams mid-90s, either. Plaid skirts, for example, weren't as popular in 1997 as they were in the mid-90s. Also, the Rachel was still a huge thing throughout the Y2K era. In addition, I think there were at least some cues taken from the Spice Girls for a lot of women. Crop-tops, pants, and flashy colors were a pretty common sight that year, even if they weren't ubiquitous.

If we focus on guys, however, I'd say 1997 is much more like 1998-2001 than 1993-1996. There really isn't any "grunge" fashion in the above photos, it was mostly dominated by short-sleeved collared shirts and short haircuts. The Cobain look was hardly relevant at all in 1997, which figures, considering the grunge movement was essentially dead that year, aside from "Blow Up the Outside World"'s carryover success into the very beginning of the year.

Your description of "Y2K-era shows" is really silly. It's just television shows. It's not affected by the trendy attitudes of society like music and fashion are; certainly not to the same extent if it is. Television also has a much wider audience than popular music does.

Are you even being serious? First, you're pretty much contradicting yourself with your obviously desperate attempt to mitigate the seeming significance of television in terms of popular trends, yet also state that television is significant to more people than pop music. Secondly, really? How are tv shows not affect by trendy attitudes? So often, the biggest shows represent exactly what society is feeling. To scratch the surface, Family Ties showcased the generation gap of the 1980s, Beavis & Butthead capture the brutish cynicism of the mid-90s, and South Park introduced that cynicism to a new generation, but with an even more in-your-face, no-holds-barred approach. There's a huge distinction between television shows from the 80s and 90s, and there are differences between the mid-90s and late 90s, as well. In so many ways, too, television shows aren't just influenced by the trends of the day, those same shows influence pop culture. The Rachel, as I already stated, was a huge fashion craze in the mid-90s and Y2K era, and it originated precisely from a popular television show. Buffy the Vampire Slayer perpetuated the teen-centric, girl power craze of the late 90s and early 2000s. Don't try and tell me, either, that you've never heard anybody quote The Simpsons, Seinfeld, or South Park on at least a few occasions. I know the shows I just mentioned aren't all late 90s, but the point is, television should be taken seriously, and it's totally ridiculous to just consider it a completely independent entity, existing in its own realm of the universe.

When you look at the facts, 1997 was a lot more like the rest of the Y2K era for television than it was like the mid-90s. There were so many shows of such great significance that premiered from late 1996 to mid-1997, especially in comparison to the several seasons surrounding that period, that it's almost not even debatable that 1997 is more late 90s for television, unless you personally and biasedly place more weight on Beavis & Butthead and the X-Men cartoon than all of the new shows combined.

I'll agree with you on movies and video games, although I don't think the '90s had any meaningful widespread trends in these industries. Hugely popular franchises, sure, but not trends itself. The producers were pretty much free to do whatever they pleased. This is why the '90s had such great films and video games; because they weren't bound by trends.

They really were, though. The mid-90s, for example, had Jim Carrey comedies, the early 90s had Wayne's World, Home Alone, and the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle films; and the late 90s had the ironic, teen-centric horror movies like Scream, plus disaster flicks and Austin Powers. Jurassic Park also revolutionized the use of CGI in motion pictures, ultimately inspiring a lot of the blockbuster films of the mid and late 90s. Leonardo DiCaprio, while famous in the mid-90s, was the male adolescent heartthrob of the big screen after Romeo + Juliet and, of course, Titanic. Film trends may be harder to directly trace than music, fashion, and video games, but they do exist nonetheless if you look carefully enough.

Honestly, the more I think about it, the less I start to see "the Y2K era" as a proper cultural era. It really wasn't. All the Y2K era was was about two things: 1) The excitement for the year 2000. 2) The paranoia of the Y2K bug-in which computers would fail to work and every nations' nuclear weapons would go off and eliminate the human race from planet earth. It was really just a psychological event in people's heads. It didn't actually affect pop culture.

Well, the term "Y2K" itself specifically refers to those trends, but as for the popular culture that was actually popular around that time, surprisingly hardly anything changed after the year 2000 arrived. The 1999-2000 school year was basically another period of cultural equilibrium, similar to 1995-1996 and 1997-1998, despite covering two millennia.

I do and always have thought that 1997 feels a lot older than 1999 and 2000, which is due to Generation X influences not being totally gone that year and the feel of the year still being unquestionably 90s, but in spite of that, it's still fundamentally closer to 1998-2002 than it is to most of the mid-90s. The Internet was already pretty comfortably established in 1997, video games were primarily living room party-era 3D titles, hip hop was either ultra-commercial (Mase/Puffy-era Bad Boy Records) or ultra-repetitive (No Limit), teen pop was huge, DVD's were just starting to become popular, television lineups were dominated by major brand new programs, etc., etc. 1997 is fascinating and paradoxical in the way it feels so retro, yet was so laden with critical foundations to 21st century culture.

What you see (and everyone else besides me does apparently) is in actuality the natural progression of change through the passage of time. Old trends die off as people get tired of them and new trends come in to take their place.

If you feel this way, then why do you say 1997 is so identical to 1994, yet completely different from 1998? Obviously, I strongly disagree with that particular opinion, but it at least represents some perception of there being notable shifts during certain points in time, in which case you can easily fragment time into sub-eras.

We also see the '90s very differently. I see 1997 as the exact same era as 1994, whereas you see 1997 as the exact same era as 2000; I hate teen pop, you love it; I don't think Y2K is a real era, whereas you think it's its own period for popular culture bridging the '90s and aughts. Frankly, the reason why you view things the way you do is because you're a Millennial. I am too, but I'm the black sheep of my generation. You have a very Millennial mindset, much more so than you would probably admit to yourself. Millennials aka "90s Kids" are more likely to pair up 1997 with 2000 (and view teen pop favorably), whereas I notice Generation X aka '90s teens tend to pair up 1997 with 1994 when they ignore the teen pop (which they hate).

I don't consider myself a typical millennial, although I definitely grew up with millennial trends and have only invested more in Gen-X trends as I've become an adult and used sites like YouTube and Wikipedia to discover these things. However, I don't really think Gen-X'ers completely categorize 1997 with 1994, considering 2Pac and Biggie both died in the 1996-1997 school year, the grunge movement ended, and things like the Spice Girls and Buffy the Vampire Slayer were shaking up the status quo. Most people who prefer Gen-X culture seem to point to 1997 as the firs time popular culture started to truly decline and abandon them, when suddenly Hanson was trendier than Oasis and Mase was one of the biggest faces in hip hop. Just because somebody hates the culture of the following generation doesn't mean they treat the transitional period as strictly belonging to the earlier era. I know I didn't view 2012 or 2013 as millennial years, even though they were basically part of the transition from Y to Z.

I think what I'm really hung up over as well is that while you speak a lot of how the music and fashion of 1997 is similar to 1994 (I think they're quite different, though I guess that's a matter of opinion), is that you really don't give a consistent argument as to why 1998 is a totally different era from 1997. You seem to categorize 1998 as the last year of the larger core 90s era that, to you, began in 1991 and even refer to a lot of older trends that were still popular throughout that year. The first two thirds of 1998 were pretty much a direct continuation of the last third of 1997, except for Beavis & Butthead being over. The autumn and winter months did see the beginnings of a lot of regular millennial/1999-2001 type of culture, but even that wouldn't become dominant until spring 1999. It's also confusing that you call 1997 the exact same era as 1994 and completely different from 1998, even though you've also explicitly labelled the entire second half of the year as late 90s. I can personally understand defining the whole first half of 1997 and maybe even early summer as mid-90s, since the transition was not over yet, but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the latter weeks of summer, as well as autumn and winter are late 90s. That period is a world away even from mid-1996, in my opinion.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on04/21/16 at 1:57 pm

Interesting conversation so far guys! I haven't read all of it, but a good portion. I've said before and I'll say it again; I consider 1997 late 90s, but the 1999 type culture just wasn't there yet. So it was still core.... I still kinda think late 1996 was the earliest the late 90s started.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on04/21/16 at 1:58 pm

Also Infinity that Buffy picture was from Season 3, which started IN 1998...

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on04/21/16 at 2:07 pm

1997 music is not different from 1994. It's a different era from 1998. You act as if teen pop exploded right when the Spice Girls released "Wannabe" in America, but really it was only a small trend. I said it before, and I'll say it again, there were only ten teen pop songs that hit it big on the American mainstream charts in 1997. The songs that truly defined that year were "Don't Let Go (Love)", "Return of the Mack", "For You I Will", "Bitch", "Barely Breathing", "Semi-Charmed Life" (which I find to be very reminiscent of the 1993 hit "Two Princes"), "The Freshmen", "Staring at the Sun", "Every Time I Close My Eyes", "Da' Dip", and "Sunny Came Home". All of these songs could have achieved major success in 1993. For "Mack", even earlier-1991. The early '90s still had an influence on popular music in 1997. Hell, even 1998 had a few early '90s-sounding songs that became hits: "Father", "My Heart Will Go On", "Adia", "Sex and Candy", "Kiss the Rain", "Wherever You Go", "Friend of Mine" (the regular version, not the remix), and "The One I Gave My Heart To". All of these could have been popular in 1993 as well. "Bittersweet Symphony" could have popular in 1994 also. "Still Not a Player" also vaguely reminds me of "Baby-Baby-Baby" because of the pianos. The early '90s had this warm, muffled, vintage feel to their production that was especially common in hip-hop, but here's the 411: It wasn't unique to the early '90s. The mid '90s and even some of the late '90s had that kind of production sound to it as well. It's called analog. Ever since music production went digital sometime in 1998 I've noticed that songs have this cold, sterile, crisp feel to it. Especially in the early 2000's. Whenever a song (especially a rap song) has a warm, vintage sound to it, people are quick to label it as "early '90s", when really it was just the production of classic '90s music in general. And it's important not to leave 1997 and 1998 out of that.

Then you have the fashions. In 1997, people were dressing exactly the same as they were in 1994 and maybe even 1993. Whether it was Swingers or Clueless, Pulp Fiction or The Craft, all of those styles were already in by the time their respective movies were released in theaters, and had been for some time. While your low-end, default, everyday lazy outfits were flannel and baggy jeans in this time period, people obviously put a lot more effort into their style game when the occasion was only just slightly more special. Every one of those things was out as out can be in 1998. While everyday clothes may have improved a lot in the second half of 1998, it didn't get better beyond that. When it came to formalwear, everything got more colorful and the fits and cuts changed, but it looked a lot worse than the more timeless 1993-1997 formal ensembles. Girls didn't try to emulate Spice Girls in the real world until the second half of 1998 and guys didn't ditch their grunge clothes for A&F outfits until around the same time. It was just a mess to be alive.

Honestly, the more I think about it, the less I start to see "the Y2K era" as a proper cultural era. It really wasn't. All the Y2K era was was about two things: 1) The excitement for the year 2000. 2) The paranoia of the Y2K bug-in which computers would fail to work and every nations' nuclear weapons would go off and eliminate the human race from planet earth. It was really just a psychological event in people's heads. It didn't actually affect pop culture. What you see (and everyone else besides me does apparently) is in actuality the natural progression of change through the passage of time. Old trends die off as people get tired of them and new trends come in to take their place. We also see the '90s very differently. I see 1997 as the exact same era as 1994, whereas you see 1997 as the exact same era as 2000; I hate teen pop, you love it; I don't think Y2K is a real era, whereas you think it's its own period for popular culture bridging the '90s and aughts. Frankly, the reason why you view things the way you do is because you're a Millennial. I am too, but I'm the black sheep of my generation. You have a very Millennial mindset, much more so than you would probably admit to yourself. Millennials aka "90s Kids" are more likely to pair up 1997 with 2000 (and view teen pop favorably), whereas I notice Generation X aka '90s teens tend to pair up 1997 with 1994 when they ignore the teen pop (which they hate).

I could see why you would view 1997 as different from 1998. It just depends on what part of 1998 you're talking about.... cause the first half was just like late 1997. and I don't think Infinity views 1997 the same as 2000, it's just she thinks it's different from 1994. Also, millennials aren't just 90s kids, they're also older 00s kids as well.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon04/21/16 at 2:24 pm

Also Infinity that Buffy picture was from Season 3, which started IN 1998...

Haha, I got it from searching Season 2 in Google Images, but it's usually inconsistent. Sadly, it's much harder to find good examples of overall fashion for each year than you'd like to think!

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon04/21/16 at 2:31 pm

I could see why you would view 1997 as different from 1998. It just depends on what part of 1998 you're talking about.... cause the first half was just like late 1997. and I don't think Infinity views 1997 the same as 2000, it's just she thinks it's different from 1994. Also, millennials aren't just 90s kids, they're also older 00s kids as well.

Yeah, there was a considerable cultural shift during the 1998-1999 school year that distinguishes 1999-2001 from 1997 and 1998! The era of Britney Spears, Limp Bizkit, and Pokemania is pretty much the intermediate period between the 90s and 2000s, in the same way the Bush '41 era bridges the late 80s (late 1986 to mid-1988) with the early 90s (late 1991 to winter 1993/1994).

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon04/22/16 at 2:35 pm

By the way, ArcticFox, I know this is off-topic, but why haven't you addressed anything about your post in the North Carolina thread? Am I still supposed to assume that you consider LGBT people second-class citizens and that it should be legal to commit acts of hate against them? You know this includes me, as well as several other boarders here, right? I'm sorry, but it really doesn't feel the same discussing pop culture with you when you come off this ignorant a person. I'll accept an apology (even though you're not an apologetic person), I just don't want to feel like you consider me inferior because of my sexual orientation or anything else.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Baltimoreianon04/22/16 at 3:31 pm

By the way, ArcticFox, I know this is off-topic, but why haven't you addressed anything about your post in the North Carolina thread? Am I still supposed to assume that you consider LGBT people second-class citizens and that it should be legal to commit acts of hate against them? You know this includes me, as well as several other boarders here, right? I'm sorry, but it really doesn't feel the same discussing pop culture with you when you come off this ignorant a person. I'll accept an apology (even though you're not an apologetic person), I just don't want to feel like you consider me inferior because of my sexual orientation or anything else.

ArcticFox is a homophobe? Damn. Why are you talking to him in the first place? It's not like he'll agree with you, since he thinks that.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon04/22/16 at 9:56 pm

ArcticFox is a homophobe? Damn. Why are you talking to him in the first place? It's not like he'll agree with you, since he thinks that.

I'm still in disbelief that he even made that post because he always seemed so respectful and caring of others, if dogmatic about his own opinion.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Baltimoreianon04/23/16 at 10:05 am

I'm still in disbelief that he even made that post because he always seemed so respectful and caring of others, if dogmatic about his own opinion.

True. He was always reasonable towards everybody in this site. He could at LEAST acknowledge your sexuality and leave it off his business.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on04/23/16 at 11:57 am

I hope to god arctic was joking, because the dude is awesome!

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Baltimoreianon04/23/16 at 12:11 pm

I hope to god arctic was joking, because the dude is awesome!

I wouldn't even talk to him if he was serious about that. I could acknowledge that he's homophobic, but I don't want to care about his sh*t after that.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:ArcticFoxon04/26/16 at 4:02 pm

By the way, ArcticFox, I know this is off-topic, but why haven't you addressed anything about your post in the North Carolina thread? Am I still supposed to assume that you consider LGBT people second-class citizens and that it should be legal to commit acts of hate against them? You know this includes me, as well as several other boarders here, right? I'm sorry, but it really doesn't feel the same discussing pop culture with you when you come off this ignorant a person. I'll accept an apology (even though you're not an apologetic person), I just don't want to feel like you consider me inferior because of my sexual orientation or anything else.

Why haven't I addressed my post in the North Carolina thread? Because it was a one statement comment. I don't always want to get into long conversations about a certain subject. I just want to add my input and move along. Why do you think I put "End of discussion" as a finishing touch? Because I demand no one have a cow about it. I also knew that a lot of members were going to flip out over the post, to which I decided then and there that I'm not going to give them the satisfaction of their own response. I don't have to explain myself, and no one is entitled to my apology. I can have my own opinions. That said, because you so diligently asked, I will quench your thirst for an answer.

I was specifically addressing the bathroom law. A transgendered person does not have a right to be in the same bathroom as the one in which cisgendered women have a right to be in. You do know that gender-based bathrooms were established to protect the privacy, health, and safety of each respective gender, especially women? And that family restrooms were made to convenience people that wish to help their child go to the restroom and change their diapers in solitude, as well as for people who are uncomfortable using the restroom in an area with other people around? It's also the perfect accommodation for transgendered individuals. Choosing to do things any differently is not an option. Might as well get rid of gender-exclusive bathrooms altogether right? Speaking of which, I read about one unnamed high school in the midwest which considered getting rid of gender-based bathrooms and locker rooms altogether. Don't you know how messed up that is?

Have you ever even heard of the Colleen Ritzer case? It is a shamefully ignored fall 2013 case about a 24 year old high school teacher named Colleen Ritzer who was killed by her 14 year old male student who entered the ladies' restroom behind her and raped her and killed her behind the doors. The guy travelled back and forth between the restroom and several destinations. He changed his outfit several times. He even managed to wheel in a huge bin and wheel her dead body out of the bathroom for pete's sake! This whole incident took a long time to carry out, and no one even interfered! One girl almost did; she walked in when the rape was happening. Thinking two students were fooling around, she giggled and walked out. I can't imagine the guilt she felt once she learned about everything that happened. The teacher's body was found in the school park. Take note a security camera was filming the entrances to the restrooms, in the exact zone where Ritzer was murdered. Colleen even has a twitter account, where her last tweet was posted the day before her death.

This is just one of many morbid cases from the past three years that have gone ignored by mass media. Want to hear another one? Jessica Chambers. A young woman who was burned alive on December 6, 2014. She suffered sever burns on over 98% of her body. The incident never made national news, because people were so caught up in the Ferguson incident. Do you see where I'm getting at here? The horrible acts of violence against women are grossly ignored and easily preventable. Ms. Ritzer was murdered by a man in a girls' restroom with a surveillance camera right in front of the entrance, capturing all of the suspicious entrances and exits. If things like this can happen, can you even decipher how easy it will be for men to pull this off due to the bathroom rules in Target? And if there was a bill passing such a law nationwide? There will be Colleen Ritzer-esque cases like this all the time! Even if there was only one case that came about as a result of those kinds of laws, that's already one too many. The fact that creeps and murderers are even given a chance to pull off their wicked antics at all is completely unacceptable.

Any person who supports the idea of transgendered people having access to the restrooms corresponding to the gender which they identify as is clearly not taking the safety of the majority into consideration. If a woman supports it, she puts her own safety in danger. If a parent supports it, they will put the safety of their daughters in jeopardy. If a man supports it, then one, he doesn't have to worry about being assaulted because he's a man, and two, he puts the safety of his wife, girlfriend, mother, or sister in danger. I have many female relatives and friends. My mother, sister, female cousins (some of which are married by the way), aunts, grandmothers, great aunts, classmates, coworkers; regardless of where they stand in my life, they are all women who have rights that deserve to be protected and preserved by the government. I care a lot about this issue more than I can put into words due to the fact that if one of them becomes a victim in this whole situation then it directly affects me - all because a male criminal who claims to be transgender will have access to the women's bathrooms, granting them the opportunity to rape or murder a woman or child, and it could be someone I know. Don't even say that they won't do that because they will; criminals will do anything to fulfill their desires. Knowing that this could happen to someone I care about is the number one reason why I am boycotting Target.

The safety of just a single unknown female that lives far away from me that I will never meet is infinitely more important than the transgender community having the permission to be allowed to use the restroom assigned to the gender which they identify with. I could go on for ages about the reasons why I don't support this law; I have so much to say that it would need a thread of its own to even partially reflect my views on the morality of this issue. And contrary to what anyone may think of me, I don't have a problem with interacting and being friends with people who are different from me, and that includes LGBT people. Nonetheless, if my moral principles are on the line in any situation, I am always going to pick my ethics over whatever popularity or positive image I may gain for saying I support something I stand against.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon04/26/16 at 4:44 pm

Why haven't I addressed my post in the North Carolina thread? Because it was a one statement comment. I don't always want to get into long conversations about a certain subject. I just want to add my input and move along. Why do you think I put "End of discussion" as a finishing touch? Because I demand no one have a cow about it. I also knew that a lot of members were going to flip out over the post, to which I decided then and there that I'm not going to give them the satisfaction of their own response. I don't have to explain myself, and no one is entitled to my apology. I can have my own opinions. That said, because you so diligently asked, I will quench your thirst for an answer.

I was specifically addressing the bathroom law. A transgendered person does not have a right to be in the same bathroom as the one in which cisgendered women have a right to be in. You do know that gender-based bathrooms were established to protect the privacy, health, and safety of each respective gender, especially women? And that family restrooms were made to convenience people that wish to help their child go to the restroom and change their diapers in solitude, as well as for people who are uncomfortable using the restroom in an area with other people around? It's also the perfect accommodation for transgendered individuals. Choosing to do things any differently is not an option. Might as well get rid of gender-exclusive bathrooms altogether right? Speaking of which, I read about one unnamed high school in the midwest which considered getting rid of gender-based bathrooms and locker rooms altogether. Don't you know how messed up that is?

Have you ever even heard of the Colleen Ritzer case? It is a shamefully ignored fall 2013 case about a 24 year old high school teacher named Colleen Ritzer who was killed by her 14 year old male student who entered the ladies' restroom behind her and raped her and killed her behind the doors. The guy travelled back and forth between the restroom and several destinations. He changed his outfit several times. He even managed to wheel in a huge bin and wheel her dead body out of the bathroom for pete's sake! This whole incident took a long time to carry out, and no one even interfered! One girl almost did; she walked in when the rape was happening. Thinking two students were fooling around, she giggled and walked out. I can't imagine the guilt she felt once she learned about everything that happened. The teacher's body was found in the school park. Take note a security camera was filming the entrances to the restrooms, in the exact zone where Ritzer was murdered. Colleen even has a twitter account, where her last tweet was posted the day before her death.

This is just one of many morbid cases from the past three years that have gone ignored by mass media. Want to hear another one? Jessica Chambers. A young woman who was burned alive on December 6, 2014. She suffered sever burns on over 98% of her body. The incident never made national news, because people were so caught up in the Ferguson incident. Do you see where I'm getting at here? The horrible acts of violence against women are grossly ignored and easily preventable. Ms. Ritzer was murdered by a man in a girls' restroom with a surveillance camera right in front of the entrance, capturing all of the suspicious entrances and exits. If things like this can happen, can you even decipher how easy it will be for men to pull this off due to the bathroom rules in Target? And if there was a bill passing such a law nationwide? There will be Colleen Ritzer-esque cases like this all the time! Even if there was only one case that came about as a result of those kinds of laws, that's already one too many. The fact that creeps and murderers are even given a chance to pull off their wicked antics at all is completely unacceptable.

Any person who supports the idea of transgendered people having access to the restrooms corresponding to the gender which they identify as is clearly not taking the safety of the majority into consideration. If a woman supports it, she puts her own safety in danger. If a parent supports it, they will put the safety of their daughters in jeopardy. If a man supports it, then one, he doesn't have to worry about being assaulted because he's a man, and two, he puts the safety of his wife, girlfriend, mother, or sister in danger. I have many female relatives and friends. My mother, sister, female cousins (some of which are married by the way), aunts, grandmothers, great aunts, classmates, coworkers; regardless of where they stand in my life, they are all women who have rights that deserve to be protected and preserved by the government. I care a lot about this issue more than I can put into words due to the fact that if one of them becomes a victim in this whole situation then it directly affects me - all because a male criminal who claims to be transgender will have access to the women's bathrooms, granting them the opportunity to rape or murder a woman or child, and it could be someone I know. Don't even say that they won't do that because they will; criminals will do anything to fulfill their desires. Knowing that this could happen to someone I care about is the number one reason why I am boycotting Target.

The safety of just a single unknown female that lives far away from me that I will never meet is infinitely more important than the transgender community having the permission to be allowed to use the restroom assigned to the gender which they identify with. I could go on for ages about the reasons why I don't support this law; I have so much to say that it would need a thread of its own to even partially reflect my views on the morality of this issue. And contrary to what anyone may think of me, I don't have a problem with interacting and being friends with people who are different from me, and that includes LGBT people. Nonetheless, if my moral principles are on the line in any situation, I am always going to pick my ethics over whatever popularity or positive image I may gain for saying I support something I stand against.

Well, ArcticFox, I appreciate that you at least gave a detailed explanation of your perspective, but especially as a transgendered woman, I still feel pretty flabbergasted reading what you have to say.

How does allowing transgendered women entering the bathroom of their choice affect the likelihood of men raping women in women's bathrooms? It wouldn't make any difference whether or not you come up with the excuse that you were transgendered – sexual assault is still sexual assault. I do not understand why people don't see passed this; the logic is beyond obvious.

The cases you listed are completely isolated, and they are not at all made possible simply by basic fundamental rights protecting peaceful transgendered women (NOT devious men in drag!!!). You're allowing irrational fear to blind any benefit of the doubt to those who have struggled for so long with feelings of exclusion and isolation. Statistics totally prove that states allowing gender-neutral bathrooms are no more prone to rape than those that don't allow them.

Personally, I'm flattered that you're essentially categorizing me as completely separate from cisgendered women, that I have no right to use the restroom I belong in. It would be a total joke if I were to enter a men's bathroom today. Nobody ever confuses me for a man now like they did while I was transitioning; even before I got facial feminization surgery, there were still a few cases in which somebody would actually tell me I was entering the wrong bathroom when I went to the men's. In fact, if trans women like me are forced to enter the men's restroom, guess what? That's a painfully ripe opportunity for somebody to rape me. I'd basically be the only woman present, and I would clearly be disturbing the peace. I'd be an easy targeted for aggressive males.

What utterly disgusts me the most, however, is that you talk all about wanting to protect all the close women you know, yet at the same time, you're basically labelling transgendered women like me as separate, not part of those same women. In fact, transwomen are a lot more likely to be victims of sexual assault than cisgendered women. I don't care how much you claim to be open to being friends with LGBT people, your stubborn belief still openly allows them to be miserably harassed, perhaps driven to suicide. You're essentially prioritizing the rights of "normal" women over a completely misguided and outlandish fear over the guarantee of protection from harassment and prevention of psychological damage to those who consider themselves no less female than those born biologically such.

I won't fudge you again because I respect your honesty and agreement to open up to the topic, but I still feel I can never admire you nearly the same way again. I don't want to share a friendly rivalry with somebody who thinks I should go to the men's restroom despite looking exactly like a woman, or who basically thinks I should be put in my place, regardless of all the psychological isolation it causes. I haven't exactly grown up accustomed to fitting in with others, and the last thing I need is to feel like my happiness is less important than other women. I will allow others here to make their own responses, but you've essentially cemented yourself as completely ignorant rather than the passionate outsider I previously perceived you as.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Baltimoreianon04/26/16 at 6:47 pm

Have you ever even heard of the Colleen Ritzer case? It is a shamefully ignored fall 2013 case about a 24 year old high school teacher named Colleen Ritzer who was killed by her 14 year old male student who entered the ladies' restroom behind her and raped her and killed her behind the doors. The guy travelled back and forth between the restroom and several destinations. He changed his outfit several times. He even managed to wheel in a huge bin and wheel her dead body out of the bathroom for pete's sake! This whole incident took a long time to carry out, and no one even interfered! One girl almost did; she walked in when the rape was happening. Thinking two students were fooling around, she giggled and walked out. I can't imagine the guilt she felt once she learned about everything that happened. The teacher's body was found in the school park. Take note a security camera was filming the entrances to the restrooms, in the exact zone where Ritzer was murdered. Colleen even has a twitter account, where her last tweet was posted the day before her death.

That doesn't mean transgender people would do the same to OTHER people? I wouldn't expect Infinity to rape me, just because she wants to be a man. The person who raped Colleen Ritzer was just a f*cked up individual, who just wanted attention from the media. And I wouldn't even expect that he's a transsexual. The rapist just used a woman's outfit, just so that people thought he was a woman. That's how he got in the f*cking bathroom. I don't know what's with you, but you're just f*cked up if you think transsexuals are evil people, just because a cross-dressing man raped an actual woman.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon04/26/16 at 6:55 pm

That doesn't mean transgender people would do the same to OTHER people? I wouldn't expect Infinity to rape me, just because she wants to be a man.

Actually, I'm male to female, not female to male. I was born biologically male but have transitioned into a woman for three years now. But I'm unambiguously a woman, inside and out. It would be a laughable proposal to demand that I use a men's restroom.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Baltimoreianon04/26/16 at 6:57 pm

Actually, I'm male to female, not female to male. I was born biologically male but have transitioned into a woman for three years now.

Oh. I thought you wanted to be a male, but it makes more sense now.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon04/26/16 at 6:58 pm

Oh. I thought you wanted to be a male, but it makes more sense now.

Hell no! What made you think that, anyway? ;D

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Baltimoreianon04/26/16 at 7:03 pm

Hell no! What made you think that, anyway? ;D

You never mentioned that you surgically transitioned from a male to a female before.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon04/26/16 at 7:08 pm

You never mentioned that you surgically transitioned from a male to a female before.

Ah, but I've listed my gender as female this entire time! Even if I hadn't technically started my transition, I'd still list my gender as female!

Did you also perceive me as being masculine or looking cisgendered in the photo I posted of myself? I'm not trying to be nosey, I just think it's interesting you assumed I identified as male and not female.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Baltimoreianon04/26/16 at 7:10 pm

Ah, but I've listed my gender as female this entire time! Even if I hadn't technically started my transition, I'd still list my gender as female!

Did you also perceive me as being masculine or looking cisgendered in the photo I posted of myself? I'm not trying to be nosey, I just think it's interesting you assumed I identified as male and not female.

No, it's just that I thought you wanted to be a male. I didn't know. I don't really get transsexuals that often, since I'm very neutral over the LGBT community. It's not that I hate them, it's just it confuses me a lot on the culture.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon04/26/16 at 7:15 pm

No, it's just that I thought you wanted to be a male. I didn't know. I don't really get transsexuals that often, since I'm very neutral over the LGBT community. It's not that I hate them, it's just it confuses me a lot on the culture.

Well, now you know for sure! I can't imagine myself as anything but feminine! I may have grown up a gamer (though even then, all of my favorite titles were the most gender-neutral), but I enjoy wearing dresses and have a really effeminate body language and manner of speech, to the point everybody assumes I'm a straight woman at first impression. Even in spite of being attracted to other females, I fawn over them in a distinctly feminine way, imagining them as my dreamy dame rather than as a sexy chick.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Eazy-EMAN1995on04/26/16 at 9:41 pm

Yeah, there was a considerable cultural shift during the 1998-1999 school year that distinguishes 1999-2001 from 1997 and 1998! The era of Britney Spears, Limp Bizkit, and Pokemania is pretty much the intermediate period between the 90s and 2000s,

I'll say this about the late 90s,I notice that R&B started to shift just like the hip hop genre. R&B moved away from the classic 90s R&B sound(Boy Z II Men, All 4 One, Soul 4 Real, Kieth Sweat) to that ''hip hop'' sounding R&B(Usher, Ginuwine, Joe, Jagged Edge, )

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon04/26/16 at 11:28 pm

I'll say this about the late 90s,I notice that R&B started to shift just like the hip hop genre. R&B moved away from the classic 90s R&B sound(Boy Z II Men, All 4 One, Soul 4 Real, Kieth Sweat) to that ''hip hop'' sounding R&B(Usher, Ginuwine, Joe, Jagged Edge, )

The funny thing is, even Keith Sweat and Boyz II Men transformed their sound around the core Y2K era into something more urban, following in the footsteps of Blackstreet's "No Diggity." Around the turn of 1999, Keith Sweat collaborated with Snoop Dogg on the hit "Come and Get with Me," before adopting an even thuggier sound on his Didn't See Me Coming album from 2000. Boyz II Men went hardcore on Nathan Michael Shawn Wayna, released also in 2000. Both records ironically marked their respective falls from mainstream popularity, but they perfectly showcase how Gen-Y urban was dominant by the new millennium.

Also, Joe and Usher both achieved fame prior to their millennial-targeted stuff from 1997, and they sounded completely different back then. Just one year before "Don't Wanna Be a Player," Joe had a big hit in "All the Things (Your Man Won't Do)," a retro r&b ballad if there ever was one, complete with gated drums and Stevie Wonder-inspired melodies. He also had an album in 1993, though it was not successful. Usher released his self-titled debut in 1994, at which point he was essentially the male equivalent of Brandy, a black teenage r&b singer whose songs had a very mid-90s sound to them. This, of course, all changed in 1997 once he released My Way, an album closer in style even to Confessions than his 1994 debut.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Red Anton04/30/16 at 6:08 am

1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

http://www.inthe00s.com/index.php?topic=32989.0

1996 is mid 90s. Period. End of topic, yet with decadeology, you all manage to drag it into a 15 page crapfest. Again. This topic and ones like it have been brought up HUNDREDS of time in the last 10 years. B-O-R-I-N-G.

My favorite post of the mostly 17 pages of crap here has to be this:

First of all the musics. 1997 music is not different from 1994. It's a different era from 1998.

e·raˈirə,ˈerə/nounnoun: era; plural noun: erasa long and distinct period of history with a particular feature or characteristic."his death marked the end of an era"

I would have reported this entire thread to be deleted but infinity actually made some great, if wordy, counterpoints, and the last page or so of posts are decent (because they arent related to this non-topic).

I'll leave you all to your "conversation", which has run 6 months now, and gotten nowhere. Enjoy the smites. Let me know if they feel mid-2010s, or late, or early, or w/e. ::)

Ant

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Red Anton04/30/16 at 9:32 am

Mid. Definitely mid.

No teen pop, no Spice Girls, no Backstreet Boys, no Robyn, no 98 Degrees, no Hanson, no Aqua, no Savage Garden, none of that teen pop crap that spoiled the '90s that came in 1997.

You are really clueless, eh? Where did you get the idea that all those bands/artists are 1996? Green Day formed in 1986, and hit it big in 94. Soundgarden released 3 or 4 albums before Badmotorfinger, which came out in 1991; their last album before they broke up, "Down on the Upside" did come out in 1996. The Cranberries came out late 80s, and their mainstream success was ~1994. Sublime - Bradley Nowell, lead singer, died in 1994. Jagged Little Pill, what Alanis Morissette blew up with, was 1995. Tupac was shot dead in 1996; most of his music was before that year. Jewel's "Pieces of Me" came out in 1995. Stone Temple Pilots release "Core" in 1992, "Purple" in 1994; only "Tiny Music..." was a 1996 release. Dave Grohl of Foo Fighters was initially with Nirvana, where he had huge success; most of Foo Fighters catalog comes out after 1996.

I'm not going to bother looking up the rest of the artists you mention. Sufficed to say, painting them with a big "1996!" LOLBRUSH is plain ignorant of music, and it's just one of many reasons why:

What is it that you people don't understand?

DECADEOLOGY IS STUPID!

The reason for the clash is because you've pigeonholed a decade's worth of releases, styles, and mainstream popularity into a number. Tell me, how old were you in 1996?

Ant

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:mqg96on04/30/16 at 10:14 am

I would have reported this entire thread to be deleted but infinity actually made some great, if wordy, counterpoints, and the last page or so of posts are decent (because they arent related to this non-topic).

I'll leave you all to your "conversation", which has run 6 months now, and gotten nowhere. Enjoy the smites. Let me know if they feel mid-2010s, or late, or early, or w/e. ::)

Ant

Are you ok? It's not a number thing. It's people explaining about the pop culture throughout certain time periods in their own opinions. People have the right to compare how music artists, TV shows, movies, fashion, games, etc. were from different times and what they preferred. As long as it's not on purpose just to troll people. Nobody's harming anybody or insulting people. There's no need to be harsh on anybody. (no offense)

I hardly create threads on site. I just like posting on here for fun.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Baltimoreianon04/30/16 at 10:31 am

1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

http://www.inthe00s.com/index.php?topic=32989.0

1996 is mid 90s. Period. End of topic, yet with decadeology, you all manage to drag it into a 15 page crapfest. Again. This topic and ones like it have been brought up HUNDREDS of time in the last 10 years. B-O-R-I-N-G.

My favorite post of the mostly 17 pages of crap here has to be this:

e·raˈirə,ˈerə/nounnoun: era; plural noun: erasa long and distinct period of history with a particular feature or characteristic."his death marked the end of an era"

I would have reported this entire thread to be deleted but infinity actually made some great, if wordy, counterpoints, and the last page or so of posts are decent (because they arent related to this non-topic).

I'll leave you all to your "conversation", which has run 6 months now, and gotten nowhere. Enjoy the smites. Let me know if they feel mid-2010s, or late, or early, or w/e. ::)

Ant

Dude, we were just having fun with sh*ts and giggles. Who gives a sh*t if it's wrong to talk about 1996?

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:Baltimoreianon04/30/16 at 10:38 am

The reason for the clash is because you've pigeonholed a decade's worth of releases, styles, and mainstream popularity into a number. Tell me, how old were you in 1996?

Ant

We weren't trying to annoy you with this thread. We were talking about if 1996 was a mid or late 90s year. It's just trivial sh*t. Don't get your pants in a twist if you don't like our posts.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:#Infinityon04/30/16 at 6:41 pm

We weren't trying to annoy you with this thread. We were talking about if 1996 was a mid or late 90s year. It's just trivial sh*t. Don't get your pants in a twist if you don't like our posts.

These type of discussions have just become a lot more culturally accepted in recent years than they were back when the board was more active. Red Ant certainly isn't the first old school member to briefly come back and be appalled by large threads devoted to decade sub-ears, and I'm sure he won't be the last.

Me personally, I enjoy talking about how pop culture changes and evolves over the course of years because it not only summarizes what distinguished each year in its impact on popular culture (essentially another way of saying what you like and don't like about a certain period), but also how those events and shifts affected the course of history in a broader context. I enjoy talking about 1997 because I feel a huge amount of foundations of the modern 21st century culture we have now found their true start that year, even though it still felt deliciously retro. I like highlighting the differences between 1997 and 1996, as well as the similarities to 1998 and 1999, in order to capitalize why that year was so intriguing and how it would directly lead to so much of both what people my age not only grew up with, but are still living with in some form today. This in mind, I know this whole game of categorization is completely a matter of opinion, hence why I'll accept anything as late as the entire first half of 1997 as mid-90s despite seeing February as the turning point, but at the same time, I think you can actually get an interesting insight over how other people view the pop culture of a certain time. JordanK1982, for example, places a lot of weight on punk and Beavis & Butthead, while Eazy-EMAN1995 highlights wrestling and professional basketball to a degree I usually don't. I like integrating the British cultural perspective in addition to the American one, since I have a personal affinity for British culture that other members here do not.

Ultimately though, I guess it's at least good to at least moderate how much of every topic there is. There was evidently a ridiculous onslaught of year-categorization threads in the past, and even right now, I personally think there's a bit of an over saturation of childhood cartoon discussions (which often show up even in threads where they aren't the main topic). To be fair, I still think it's all a matter of opinion. I came here primarily to explore the quirks and perspectives of what life was like in decades past, but many other members enjoy being able to talk about the shows they grew up with. People should not be prohibited from talking about any topic they enjoy, just so long as it isn't directly offensive and isn't spammed at an uncontrollable pace. I can understand why an old school member like Red Ant would come see a thread like this and be like, "SERIOUSLY?," but currently active members here are of a completely different generation and clearly haven't developed the same stigma against decade sub-eras as those who were present back when Donnie Darko was active here.

Subject:Re: 1996 - Mid '90s or late 90s?

Written By:TheEarly90sFanon04/30/16 at 6:46 pm

Would you say this is a good marker for various cultural 'eras' of the 90s, then:

January 1990- September 1993: Early '90sSeptember 1993 - September 1996: Mid '90sSeptember 1996 - September 1999: Late 90s