You're reaching Dlev. Flip has mentioned time and time again that the Pistons need to be patient and work the ball to the weak side in order to take advantage of the virtual zone Boston is running.

It seems to me that you need him to peel off a switch and tan some behinds right there on the court (like he could, lol) before you folks think he's upset about it.

Theres not a single thing the Pistons have done wrong that Flip hasn't told them they couldn't afford to do. There isn't a single thing they have failed to do that Flip hasn't told them to do over and over again.

For some reason people want to ignore that little fact and focus on only 25% of the things that come out of his mouth.

I didn`t know you were in the huddle with the Pistons during timeouts.

What makes you assume he DID pass certain information on to the players?

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Cute and flashy but lacking in substance, considering that between the two of us you were the first person to "assume". You assume that Flip doesn't say something to his players just because you weren't there. [sarcasm] I wasn't aware that you had replaced the sun as the current center of the universe, your highness.[/sarcasm]

If he passes this information to the players and they don`t listen to him what do you think he should do?

I say sit their asses down. Period.

Yet as you assume, he passes this info to the players and they continue to not listen. What does that tell us? Asssuming of course that is what`s happening.

There were at least 5 or 6 times when these "bad shots" Flip is referring to occured. So, you are telling me these bad shots were addressed by Flip, yet the players kept on doing their own thing.

I`m not buying it.

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Bottom line, Dlev, is that there is a whole lot of playing and coaching experience wearing suits on that sideline. To assume that information has been passed on to players, especially when the coaching staff has already relayed said info to the members of the press, is hardly a leap of logic.

The erroneous conclusion (at best) is to assume that it has not. But if thats the corner you want to stand in...by all means go right ahead sir.

As for players that continuously disregard the intended directions of coaching staff....sounds to me like your beef is with Mr. Presidente. At the end of the day the buck ultimately stops with him.

Actually, that was his play. Each of his plays consist of options and reads that the player has to make depending on what the defense decides to take away from you. Listen to his post game again. He makes that plain to anyone that understands the offense.

Different rules, different game. The old Pistons defense has been legislated out of the pro game, and with it has come different ways to defend, and different ways to score. I'm just paraphrasing Joe D when I say that though...

Saunders is not isoing Tay. Billups, Rasheed, and Rip are isoing Tay. Furthermore, it wouldn't appear to be an iso play if they would simply do what Flip has drawn up for them and move without the ball....not just 1 or 2 guys, but all of them.

The Celtics are playing heavy to the strong side and lagging 5-10 feet off the guys that they want to shoot the ball. 1 pass and then a foray to the rim will fail time and time again, as the Celtics set defense has three guys in the area at all times, one of them being Kevin Garnett. Only hard cuts and screens are going to free up shooters, and only player movement is going to force the defense to snap out of their zone around the painted area.

The idea that a guy shouldn't touch the ball except in certain situations is helping Boston, not Detroit, and the sheer fact that our starting wing is "that" type of player is one of the reasons why Chuck Daly said that the players are flawed, not the coach.

....Right into the open arms of the Boston triple team. What these players need to do is start busting their butts off the ball - Hit gaps and come off screens and picks hard, and look to make quick aggressive plays (passes as well as shots...most likely instead of) when they are doing this with the ball in their hands. The current nonsense of fading off of screen and roll/pop plays is doing nothing but giving the defense time to recover. They are failing to find a balance between decisiveness and out-of-control.

This is old news, but I would at the very least expect them to make open shots from 10 feet in. They were blowing them all night, and that isn't because they were running Flex to beautiful perfection. When I see some textbook sets turn into crap, I'll turn around and blame Flip.

But all I've seen lately is sloppy reads on both ends of the floor. That, and missed shots.

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Your right, CW...Let me apologize for even thinking that the greatest playoff coach of alllll time, our beloved Flip Saunders , is not doing the greatest 10 yr playoff run any of us has ever seen. I dont know what Ive been watching. Only have done it for 40 years. I bow to your wisdom, Old Cloud Walker........

The two countries comprised of little people are feuding over the proper way to crack open an egg. At the small end or the large? Gulliver suggests they crack it down the middle, which of course both sides find utterly preposterous.

"The feuding between the Lilliputians and the Blefuscudians is meant to represent the feuding countries of England and France, but the reason for the war is meant to satirize the feud between Catholics and Protestants, over issues that Swift may have found trivial."

Hmmmm...

I'm just sayin'... ;)

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Look how easy it was for them to put aside their differences around the turn of the century when Kaiser built up his super army that threatened them both. Maybe the moral is that some always need an enemy.

Your right, CW...Let me apologize for even thinking that the greatest playoff coach of alllll time, our beloved Flip Saunders , is not doing the greatest 10 yr playoff run any of us has ever seen. I dont know what Ive been watching. Only have done it for 40 years. I bow to your wisdom, Old Cloud Walker........

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And here I was expecting you to kick some play breaking-down or some such. I thought you would at the very least explain Bostons defense, and why driving to the rim would be possible without movement, or what play in particular the Pistons should run while remaining steadfast in their "army of two" offense.

But discussing the intricacies of both teams offensive and defensive principles isn't as easy as bashing the coach.

Cute and flashy but lacking in substance, considering that between the two of us you were the first person to "assume". You assume that Flip doesn't say something to his players just because you weren't there. [sarcasm] I wasn't aware that you had replaced the sun as the current center of the universe, your highness.[/sarcasm]

Bottom line, Dlev, is that there is a whole lot of playing and coaching experience wearing suits on that sideline. To assume that information has been passed on to players, especially when the coaching staff has already relayed said info to the members of the press, is hardly a leap of logic.

The erroneous conclusion (at best) is to assume that it has not. But if thats the corner you want to stand in...by all means go right ahead sir.

As for players that continuously disregard the intended directions of coaching staff....sounds to me like your beef is with Mr. Presidente. At the end of the day the buck ultimately stops with him.

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Huh?

So the folk in the suits are not held accountable for the actions of the players they are coaching?

Tell me that`s not what you are saying.

And Cloud I know you are not that naive to think that whatever a player or coach says to the media that the same is not always communicated to same player or coach.

If a player blatantly disregards a coache`s instruction I agree that the president should step in, however, what should the coach do?

I guess Flip should go to Joe D and say, "uh, Joe, they won`t listen to me", between sobs!

Take the quote from Lindsey after game 1, about Rip not having to shoot every time down the floor.

Something tells me Flip didn`t tell Rip that, if he did why would Lindsey have to repeat it to him?

Lindsey went to Rip with that, then the media picked it up.

You are right, when the media hears it, the players do, the problem is, they hear it after the fact, or after the game!

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Something tells you that Flip didn't tell Rip to move the ball and not to shoot the ball after 1 to no passes? Its fundamental Flex offense. He shouldn't have to be told.

Something tells me that I was hearing that in junior high, and by now it should be such a fundamental factor in "playing the right way" that Rip should know that, considering the previous coaches that he has played for.

Personally, I think that Rip has been told. I think Lindsey went to the media with it because if Flip were to do it, it would be perceived as stooping low. Hunter is in an envious position between player and coach that allows him to do and say things like that (something very Brownlike) and not get judged as a "bad person" for doing so.

I will concede that it (and all other things) is Flips fault.... irregardless .....

but there is no way that I will ever believe that fundamental aspects of offense and defense like moving, passing and rebounding missed shots aren't even being mentioned by three former players that made their money by adhering to these basic principles with more vigilance than the guy that was opposite them most of the nights in which they suited up.

Say what you will about Flip, but his assistants were three hard nosed "Piston DNA" all the way players, and there is no way that players aren't hearing about it from at least these three individuals during the game when they are giving less than 100%

If you're re-watching the game film, make note of how many times DET starts out on offense shaded to the left or right of the top of the 3 point circle and makes a 6 foot pass to the same side of the floor against a D that is already overloaded to that side. You are screaming trap me there. I suppose it is possible that the players make the plays up as they go, but to me that seems to be a philosophy of some sort.

For all the "new" rules legislating D out of the games, the Pistons sure seem to score less than 80 points an awful lot.

Billups may have been 1-6 and -25 last night, but the fact remains that this is the best ECF he has had since '05.

Even picking up the ball and shooting against your own basket is not as effective as giving someone like Perkins a dunk to start the game.

DET is always going to struggle rebounding the ball when they have to move their defense around so much to account for penetration.

Winning G4 doesn't bring anything back. That can't happen until G5 at the earliest and that means winning 2 games in a row........

Nice example there in regards to strong side passing. Working the ball to the weakside was one of the coaching staffs priorities going into game 2, yet the players all had selective amnesia heading into game 3.

Something tells you that Flip didn't tell Rip to move the ball and not to shoot the ball after 1 to no passes? Its fundamental Flex offense. He shouldn't have to be told.

Something tells me that I was hearing that in junior high, and by now it should be such a fundamental factor in "playing the right way" that Rip should know that, considering the previous coaches that he has played for.

Personally, I think that Rip has been told. I think Lindsey went to the media with it because if Flip were to do it, it would be perceived as stooping low. Hunter is in an envious position between player and coach that allows him to do and say things like that (something very Brownlike) and not get judged as a "bad person" for doing so.

I will concede that it (and all other things) is Flips fault.... irregardless .....

but there is no way that I will ever believe that fundamental aspects of offense and defense like moving, passing and rebounding missed shots aren't even being mentioned by three former players that made their money by adhering to these basic principles with more vigilance than the guy that was opposite them most of the nights in which they suited up.

Say what you will about Flip, but his assistants were three hard nosed "Piston DNA" all the way players, and there is no way that players aren't hearing about it from at least these three individuals during the game when they are giving less than 100%

No way at all.

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Ok Cloud.

Let`s say this info is being communicated during games, however, it is totally ignored by Rip, Cb or whomever.

Let`s say this info is being communicated during games, however, it is totally ignored by Rip, Cb or whomever.

Who is to blame? What should Flip do?

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I think it was bballjay whom I agreed with in chat that the most frustrating part about Flip is that he won't bench the whole starting five for being bums.

I think you and I agree that he should have done this a long time ago, until it sunk in.

Unfortunately I think it may be too late now. He's obviously playing for precious wins, and likely for his job. To do it now would risk losing a game that the starters may still be able to pull out (we were sickeningly in it until more than halfway through the fourth last night) while simultaneously giving players, fans, and media a reason to blame the game on him and his ego for pulling the starters and "spotting the opposition precious points at a crucial time and blah blah blah" you know that deal.

He's kind of screwed now IMO. All his chips are laying on whether or not the team can win despite mistakes he made, or choices he should have made, years ago.

IMO, he should have seen the writing on the wall, and went Scott Skiles on Ben and Rasheed, rather than just hope he could tweak things here and there and ride the players talent infused with a few tricks of the trade he picked up to the championship.

Theres the rub though. Flip isn't that type of guy. Joe knew that, yet he hired him anyway. So ultimately the blame for things not working out needs to be on Joe.

He's the one that threw shoes in the oven and tried to pass them off as biscuits.

As far as I'm concerned, if the Pistons don't win a Championship this year, it's time for Joe D. to eat them biscuits.

I think it was bballjay whom I agreed with in chat that the most frustrating part about Flip is that he won't bench the whole starting five for being bums.

I think you and I agree that he should have done this a long time ago, until it sunk in.

Unfortunately I think it may be too late now. He's obviously playing for precious wins, and likely for his job. To do it now would risk losing a game that the starters may still be able to pull out (we were sickeningly in it until more than halfway through the fourth last night) while simultaneously giving players, fans, and media a reason to blame the game on him and his ego for pulling the starters and "spotting the opposition precious points at a crucial time and blah blah blah" you know that deal.

He's kind of screwed now IMO. All his chips are laying on whether or not the team can win despite mistakes he made, or choices he should have made, years ago.

IMO, he should have seen the writing on the wall, and went Scott Skiles on Ben and Rasheed, rather than just hope he could tweak things here and there and ride the players talent infused with a few tricks of the trade he picked up to the championship.

Theres the rub though. Flip isn't that type of guy. Joe knew that, yet he hired him anyway. So ultimately the blame for things not working out needs to be on Joe.

He's the one that threw shoes in the oven and tried to pass them off as biscuits.

As far as I'm concerned, if the Pistons don't win a Championship this year, it's time for Joe D. to eat them biscuits.

I must mention though, as I criticize a Flip Saunders decision, how aware I am that hindsight is 20/20.

Scottie Skiles isn't coaching the Bulls anymore, despite his tough guy 'tude, and Ben and Rasheed could have told Bill D. to "Cut That Check" while they coasted the rest of the way into early playoff vacation. That would have put an end to the ECF "streak" before it even started.

There is a downside to abrasiveness, and I sure as heck am not going to second guess Flips approach, as anything different may have led to the loss of Mr. Rasheed Wallace as well as Ben, if not more players.

Perhaps that is where (once again) Coach Daly has a point in that todays NBA and it's players are very difficult to motivate and coach. Only the coaches that win a championship don't suck, and even in those cases they can still suck, see the countless Phil Jackson debates.

Pop doesn't suck. He will probably never suck. Thats about it right? Rivers sucked last year, and unless he is capable of winning a 'ship and keeping up a track record he'll suck again.

Sloan possibly doesn't suck, unless you are trying to win a 'ship with a good team, then he flat out stinks according to some Utah fans. Daly sucked , then he was Detroit royalty, then he left and started to suck wherever he went, according to fans wanting a championship.

So who are we gonna bring in? Van Gundy? He will probably suck before the all-star break . Karl, Adelman, Woody, Cheeks, Avery? Don't they suck now? Isn't every coach available right now available because they currently suck in the minds of an entire state or two?

Was The Czar working on the court with our players the other night shades of Ron Rothstein, rubbing his fingers together and mua-ha-ha-ing on the sidelines?

I honestly don't know ladies and gents. The trend of hiring "who?" type guys as coaches seems to make more and more sense to me, as when it comes right down to it the personnel on the floor are more than capable of getting decent results regardless of and sometimes despite who is wearing the suit on the sideline.

That is one thing that may be agreed upon no matter where you fall on the great Flip debate.

And in light of that, I would have to say it's time for a retool. Coach, players. Everyone.