IONS Discussion Thread Comments: The evolution and devolution of the paradox that is and isn't Schrodinger's cat!http://noetic.org/discussions/open/49/<p>
I felt a bit tired earlier and my brain felt like mush! Neurological stuff so I decided to have a nap but I couldn&#39;t get to sleep and one thing led to another and I was thinking about the universe and Shrodinger&#39;s Cat and how the cat in the box is a paradox because it is both alive and dead, it also exists and doesn&#39;t exist. I came to the conclusion that everything is a paradox, even the paradox itself is a paradox! The universe can fit into Shrodinger&#39;s Cat&#39;s box because it is enormous and infinite but paradoxically it is miniscule and finite. The universe and everything within it exists and paradoxically does not exist too! I think this conclusion is both also paradoxically true and untrue, there really is no way to prove it except to accept that duality affects everything and also nothing! It also makes sense but doesn&#39;t make sense!</p>
en-usSun, 09 Jan 2011 16:13:51 -0800Tdrulardhttp://noetic.org/discussions/open/49/#comment_834Are you ok? It is nice to know someone else in this world suffers from BFLM syndrome. I too am a victim of the brain felt like mush syndrome. :)
I think the beauty lies with the paradox itself. The paradox provides us with an alternative conclusion to the puzzle of what is and what isn't. Which is why the only universally common denominator is change. If everything must change, as everything does, than nothing is constant except change. If Shrodinger's cat is alive now he ceased to exist a moment ago and vice versa if Shrodinger's cat is dead now he could be alive in just a moment from now. The form doesn't exist until YOU observe it. This is a very complex theory to wrap your head around. Even these words i am writing right now only exist because YOU observe them. Your observations are dilluted by your perceptions and experiences that brought you to this point right now. It becomes even more complex when you try to understand your basic human interactions within your enviornment. I will go into detail more about this when i start a thread of an experiment i would love to conduct. Thu, 21 Oct 2010 14:49:32 -0700http://noetic.org/discussions/open/49/#comment_834cameronjcwhttp://noetic.org/discussions/open/49/#comment_835Excellent! Its good to have a reply to this! I posted it in a few places and I think I broke some heads. I think I broke my own head a bit too lol
I was starting to wonder if I was gonna start having a seizure after that. It is a wonderful paradox though it applies to nothing and everything at the same time but also alternately! Back and forth. :)
I look forward to your experiment!! :)Thu, 21 Oct 2010 15:00:45 -0700http://noetic.org/discussions/open/49/#comment_835RedDoghttp://noetic.org/discussions/open/49/#comment_842I like the Cat in the Box paradox, as it makes for a very interesting allegory with an animal.
I see the paradox as it is written in the Bible under the general parable of "seek and ye shall find".
The point is US. Both stories point to US, as important to this symbolic allegory.
That curiosity doomed us from the Garden of Eden, as we just had to peek and seek the
knowledge of the state of the Cat! What foolishness, what hubris!
The reality is simply that it does not matter what the state of the Cat is, only that
it can be both, one or the other, or none. But we could not help ourselves, we are just
not happy in the knowledge that we have the power in consciousness to determine the state
by seeking.
;-)Thu, 21 Oct 2010 16:52:18 -0700http://noetic.org/discussions/open/49/#comment_842Tdrulardhttp://noetic.org/discussions/open/49/#comment_855Redog, We are in the same state as the cat. The state of the cat,box,room,you and the universe are all the same. Constant change. Therefore i believe it is regarless of observation as observation is a human "act" therfore the only change is the change in the perception.
Think of those posters that used to be in the malls. They looked like colorful static until you let your eyes go out of focus and then you would see the embedded picture. The picture never changed your perception of it did.
"Which is why everything tastes like chicken".... :)Fri, 22 Oct 2010 13:22:22 -0700http://noetic.org/discussions/open/49/#comment_855tomsherryhttp://noetic.org/discussions/open/49/#comment_950Excellent analogy, true to the incomprehensibility of quantum physics - but more significantly in accord with the fractal principle in complexity theory (formerly chaos theory). As above, so below is one of the seven Hermetic axioms and again in consonance with the above.
I have a suggestion of another way, perhaps more sensible, of interpreting the Schroedinger's Cat thought experiment:
If, as I believe, everything (EVERYTHING) has some form of consciousness, and all consciousness is interconnected (as shown by quantum physics), then the cat in the box, in co-consciousness agreement with the poison in the glass vial, and the radioactive source that is supposed to randomly (sic) trigger the breaking of the vial and hence death of the cat, must together decide when to trigger the emission of a particle from the isotope. The cat is NOT then in a state of both being dead and alive until the box is opened and a human observer collapses the probability wave. Rather the cat will either be alive or dead prior to the opening of the box based on the collective decision of the system in the box, most influentially the cat itself. The classical interpretation of both dead and alive, I believe, is based on human observer consciousness being the only determining factor - too anthropocentric.Wed, 03 Nov 2010 14:35:11 -0700http://noetic.org/discussions/open/49/#comment_950Jerry Kayshttp://noetic.org/discussions/open/49/#comment_982Wonderful thinking here ... the wonder that each and all here accept paradox ... when most of our world cannot do so ... thus the duality (+/-) of normality ... where most desire to define explicitly ONLY one or the other ... never allowing BOTH.
Logically, that came from our dualistic conditioning from day one, when we were told that (+=+) and (-=-) and that the East and the West could not meet ... that we had to deal with one or the other, separately, DUALISM (+/-)
But being made in the "Image of" GOD (not God nor god(s)) we are "Spiritual Beings" and we thus contain the fullness of BOTH Potentials (+) AND (-) AT THE SAME TIME ! ...
It is our Spirituality (realized or not) that BRIDGES THE GAP AND VOID (/) of DUALISM ... WITH THE BRIDGE OF SPIRIT (=), THE THIRD ASPECT OF TRUE REALITY WHICH IS A TRINITY ... (+=-) ... also a PARADOX ... and the TRUTH OF THE UNIVERSE ... AS WELL AS THE TRUTH THAT SETS US FREE !!!
The BASIC EQUATION of TRUTH ... what I call the BET (+=-) ... solves paradox when believed in ... it states, as a UNIversal Truth, that for everything, there exists an equal but opposite ... where the One exists in Time, the Other exists in Space ... WE and GOD ... and ... ALL AND NOTHING ...
I see in everything said here, the relationship to that ... only in different words. :-) IMnsHOTue, 09 Nov 2010 11:20:43 -0800http://noetic.org/discussions/open/49/#comment_982Theoldmanhttp://noetic.org/discussions/open/49/#comment_1052What I would like to bring to this conversation is the following statement that came to me years ago thinking about this area of understanding. The only truth I know and it is singular is also the definition of Great Mystery, the Holy Ghost, and the paradox.
"The only constant is change," this is both the only truth I know and by definition "the Paradox".
The other one I like is my native theory of relativity: "if it matters to you, put energy into it - and it will be so." Conversely, "if you put energy into something - it matters and is mani/womafested into our reality." - Duality collapses when you can see equally the light and dark of any image - because then you realize you are standing in a place that sees both and by definition of a third eye perspective - this is the first trinity of consciousness and is represented by the triangle. This is where I have issue with the observer effect that has been imposed on our consciousness through present relativity theory. This is where an imposed separation has been implied between our existence and the rest of the cosmos. This imposed separation has been promoted through our history in organized religious and spiritual delusions that served more the leaders of church and state than knowing our place in the cosmos. Today these institutions have evolved into the corporate consciousness. The greatest threat to Corporate or Religious strategies, designed to control the masses and serve the few, is independent thinkers, and more importantly - independent DOERS! Blessings - EamonnSat, 20 Nov 2010 15:52:40 -0800http://noetic.org/discussions/open/49/#comment_1052cameronjcwhttp://noetic.org/discussions/open/49/#comment_1092I agree with you there theoldman.
Being an independant thinker and doer can be a very lonely thing and can alienate a lot of people! I know because I do and think very much independantly as much as I can with all my being however it can also attract other similar personalities so its not such a bad thing really.
Ive been told I have my head in the clouds many times and its never done me that much harm, certainly not to my own psyche so I shall continue the way Ive always done and am sure it will work out somehow and even if it doesn't I will still have learned in the process! :)
All the best.Tue, 30 Nov 2010 21:20:00 -0800http://noetic.org/discussions/open/49/#comment_1092frequencytunerhttp://noetic.org/discussions/open/49/#comment_1326The box depicts the yin yang in it's essence: 2 exact opposites that cannot coexist are dancing together. Understand that this is the very nature of the universe and of creation itself. It makes perfect non-sense. Why this is hard to understand is because human beings lack the perspective of unity where light and dark, life and death appear as they are : opposite aspects of the same thing.Wed, 22 Dec 2010 22:59:27 -0800http://noetic.org/discussions/open/49/#comment_1326mysticmusehttp://noetic.org/discussions/open/49/#comment_1445 "There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true."
— Niels Bohr
"It is a platitude as well as an occult paradox to say that in the midst of profound personality distress and unhappiness, the joy of the soul may be known and felt."
— A Treatise on White Magic, Alice Bailey
"...it is necessary primarily to preserve the personality but be freed of egotism. To many, such an antithesis will seem absurd; for them, egotism is personality. The manifestation of a powerful personality devoted to the General Good is beyond the imagination of many, but without personality thinking would not have potency."
— Helena Roerich
Paraphrased paradoxes:
We have all the time in the world, but there is no time to loose.
One must achieve detachment. But detachment is separation, and one must achieve unification that is the ultimate "attachment."
We are to be oriented to the soul that takes us away from the world. At the same time we are to be oriented to humanity that involves us in the world.
Death is the result of a living process.
Contradictions may be considered as different aspects of the same manifestation. But if one, then there is no contradiction.
"Nothing is farther than earth from heaven; nothing is nearer than heaven to earth."
— Hare & Charles
"All high truth is the union of two contradictions."
— Robertson
"The Fanatic Is The Man Who Cannot Understand A Paradox. Most fanatics, cranks, and madmen, are those who are unable to understand a paradox. Every truth has its opposite, which is also true. Sanity consist in understanding this; insanity in failing to see it.
Workable, every day truth is made up of two or more contradictions. The true doctrine is always the balance. For instance, the truth lies not in fate (determinism, predestination) nor in free will, but in both. Man is not a spirit, nor a brute; he is both. Whoever excludes wholly the one or the other from his idea of man is not so much untrue as he is crazy.”
— Frank Crane
Words seem to spring from classifications and division, yet the paradox is that every word may become catalyst. So, ultimately, words bridge the gaps between divisions, yielding sparks of amazing cognition.
JamesSun, 09 Jan 2011 16:13:51 -0800http://noetic.org/discussions/open/49/#comment_1445