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Cross City uses two platforms (a train every 10 mins in each direction), so you are not gaining much platform space.

It's notreally about platform space, though, the issue is the approach lines, especially from the south where the CC trains come in on the Derby lines. Take out 6 trains an hour each way and you free up an awful lot of paths. Putting in a new junction from the Stour to the Derby lines where the up/down Camphill line is now would allow the Euston terminators use of that half of the station as well. Someone mentioned the 4-tracking of the BHM-COV corridor earlier which was another scheme that disappeared without trace, another would be the re-instatement of the 4-track section out to Solihull as well...

It's all academic though as the real money will be spent on a self contained line from Brum to London!

It will be interesting to see, when it's finally built, if it really does relieve pressure on the current Midlands to London lines or just turns out a white elephant used only by those who can afford it...

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I've just been reading about the Japanese Maglev which is being built at tremendous expense from Tokyo to Osaka, over 75% in tunnels going through hard mountain rock. There has been only one environmental issue where the tunnel goes under a river and there are fears it will cause the river to dry up.

I guess the thinking is long term for the benefit of the country instead of for the benefit of winning the next election- build it once, build it best.

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But it's not, is it? Nothing like it. Special trains, special signalling.

If the new line had indeed been planned as a normal line to supplement capacity on the WCML it would have had my support from Day 1.

So you don't like a new line using the best of contemporary and planned technology where it can make use of it. Would you prefer it to have semaphore signalling, no electrification, and be worked by steam locos hauling new build Mk 1 coaches ?

18 hours ago, Pandora said:

I read the Stop HS2 campaign group document , and I do not know whose side to take:

Lord Berkeley is a Chartered Engineer, I listen up when Engineers give their opinion, I cannot say the same for politicians social scientists and economists.

Having just read part of Tony Berkeley's report - relating to an area which was part of my professional everyday working situation for a number of years and indeed an area in when I spent time training student engineers - I have to say that his words are disingenuous to say the very least when it comes to what he infers in Para 2.4 regarding the number of trains per hour. What the project has told him about 18 per hour is correct, and in fact even provides for a small level of perturbation in order to improve reliability. What SNCF said is interesting but it is not explained in any sort of context regarding the signalling system and any other factors, and you only have to look at, and understand, the detail of the way SNCF time trains on their LGVs to at least begin to understand why they should say that. You could in fact take a particular UIC fiche on line capacity (which most mainland European railways have long done in order to support building in extra capacity) and use that to argue against 18tph but Berkeley didn't even bother to do that - a clear betrayal of his ignorance of the detail in this area and the overblown nature of the UIC fiche, which has never been applied in a UK context.

So if Berkeley is so weak in properly supporting his argument there what does that say for other areas of hius report? To be honest I don't know because many of them who do not lie in my professional experience - any more than I I suspect they might lie within his.

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Putting in a new junction from the Stour to the Derby lines where the up/down Camphill line is now would allow the Euston terminators use of that half of the station as well. Someone mentioned the 4-tracking of the BHM-COV corridor earlier which was another scheme that disappeared without trace, another would be the re-instatement of the 4-track section out to Solihull as well...

The track layout approaching BNS from the east already allows trains from that direction to access any platform, there is a double crossover by proof house to allow Stour trains to access the "Midland" side.

BTW The four tracks from Moor St. Originally went to Lapworth.

Edited January 23 by melmerby

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It's notreally about platform space, though, the issue is the approach lines, especially from the south where the CC trains come in on the Derby lines. Take out 6 trains an hour each way and you free up an awful lot of paths. Putting in a new junction from the Stour to the Derby lines where the up/down Camphill line is now would allow the Euston terminators use of that half of the station as well. Someone mentioned the 4-tracking of the BHM-COV corridor earlier which was another scheme that disappeared without trace, another would be the re-instatement of the 4-track section out to Solihull as well...

It's all academic though as the real money will be spent on a self contained line from Brum to London!

It will be interesting to see, when it's finally built, if it really does relieve pressure on the current Midlands to London lines or just turns out a white elephant used only by those who can afford it...

If you take just 4 Birmingham high speed trains per hour off the WCML that would release more than 4 paths per hour for trains running at the fastest freight and semi-fast passenger speeds. Very basic level understanding of train pathing tells you that. Once you take even more longer distance high speed trains away from the WCML you will again get more lower speed paths than the highest speed paths you take out.

In the end it all boils down to which category of train is the most extravagant consumer of line capacity and that will always be the one which is furthest removed from the general norm in speed and stopping patterns so it will be trains that are 'excessively' fast or those which make far more stops and have longer journey times that will be the most extravagant consumers of capacity.

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Am I misunderstanding something? Several commentators here have talked about HS2 being for the elite and of difficulties in buying tickets for routes incorporating all or part of HS2 etc.

Has it been suggested that there will be premium fares for HS2? And will it not be part of the national ticketing system?

I can buy a ticket which covers four or five operators, including over HS1, just as easily as I can buy one to the next station. Why should buying tickets for journeys via HS2/23/4 be any different?

And thanks to those who mentioned the roads around Birmingham NS as an issue. It was one I had not appreciated not being a driver and only visiting B'ham when I have to, usually to change trains at BNS or transfer to Moor St. Not even Ian Allan to visit any more.

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If you take just 4 Birmingham high speed trains per hour off the WCML that would release more than 4 paths per hour for trains running at the fastest freight and semi-fast passenger speeds.

My understanding is that HS2 is in addition to the existing trains as we supposibly need that extra capacity. In reply to your comment to Flitersnoop about signalling or other technology none is suggesting a return to old methods of signalling or other old technologies and I feel you are being a bit unfair with that comment! I do not believe his comments suggested that. But what is needed is an integrated network but this, certainly as far as Brum, is a stand alone line with no onward connections to other parts of the West Midlands without station and train transfers... That is a big backward step.

Edited January 23 by Hobby

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So you don't like a new line using the best of contemporary and planned technology where it can make use of it. Would you prefer it to have semaphore signalling, no electrification, and be worked by steam locos hauling new build Mk 1 coaches ?

Having just read part of Tony Berkeley's report - relating to an area which was part of my professional everyday working situation for a number of years and indeed an area in when I spent time training student engineers - I have to say that his words are disingenuous to say the very least when it comes to what he infers in Para 2.4 regarding the number of trains per hour. What the project has told him about 18 per hour is correct, and in fact even provides for a small level of perturbation in order to improve reliability. What SNCF said is interesting but it is not explained in any sort of context regarding the signalling system and any other factors, and you only have to look at, and understand, the detail of the way SNCF time trains on their LGVs to at least begin to understand why they should say that. You could in fact take a particular UIC fiche on line capacity (which most mainland European railways have long done in order to support building in extra capacity) and use that to argue against 18tph but Berkeley didn't even bother to do that - a clear betrayal of his ignorance of the detail in this area and the overblown nature of the UIC fiche, which has never been applied in a UK context.

So if Berkeley is so weak in properly supporting his argument there what does that say for other areas of hius report? To be honest I don't know because many of them who do not lie in my professional experience - any more than I I suspect they might lie within his.

Lord Berkeley, his evidence being the proven expertise of Japanese railways of high-speed operation of dedicated lines for passenger trains for a capacity figure of 12 trains per hour.

What is the evidence for a capacity of 18tph on HS2?

Surely the evidence from Japan and SNCF must be heeded in the HS2 case.

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Following some exams I took, which were not exactly mind stretching I could have followed the path to be a Chartered Engineer but couldn't see any advantage to it at the time so didn't persue it.

Maybe in later years it might have opened more opportunities in a change of employment.

Passing the exams is only the start, and the easy part of the route, proving to the professional body, following several years of hard work and responsibility, to be a fit and proper candidate for election , separates the wheat from the chaff.

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In reply to Hobby, yes extra capacity is created both on the new line and on the existing railway by separating out the express trains onto the new line where they will all run at much the same speed and therefore maximise capacity, while freeing up more paths than they currently use on the WCML.

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Am I misunderstanding something? Several commentators here have talked about HS2 being for the elite and of difficulties in buying tickets for routes incorporating all or part of HS2 etc.

And thanks to those who mentioned the roads around Birmingham NS as an issue. It was one I had not appreciated not being a driver and only visiting B'ham when I have to, usually to change trains at BNS or transfer to Moor St. Not even Ian Allan to visit any more.

As one of those who did suggest that I will await the opening and ticket prices with interest. I'd be surprised if there is not a premium to use it as there currently is when comparing Avanti/LNW/Chiltern. No doubt there will be cheaper advance tickets for those who can plan ahead. Season ticket prices compared with the existing lines will be interesting, though, also if they are able to be used on the "old" network...

Birmingham City Council are currently doing all they can to prevent the private motorist driving into the City Centre, so in future driving in, parking and then walking to the station will not be a viable option. There is even some doubt how rail staff who provide the service will be a ffected as our car park is within the boundaries. So access by foot/public transport to Curzon Street is vital, especially for those with limited mobility.

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In reply to Hobby, yes extra capacity is created both on the new line and on the existing railway by separating out the express trains onto the new line where they will all run at much the same speed and therefore maximise capacity, while freeing up more paths than they currently use on the WCML.

Jonathan

But I thought they will be keeping the existing trains as the new line is to take the extra travellers we are assured the existing network cannot cope with. So capacity on WCML will not change... Or is Avanti or whoever takes over going to lose many of their services and income?

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Aren't the WCML and HS2 to be run by the same operator, at least initially? And no, the express trains which do not call intermediately will move from the WCML to HS2. That is the whole point of the exercise.

Re ticketing, I agree that we need to wait and see, though I can't see the "premium" fare situation being any different from at present. Regarding discounted fares, I really don';t know. It will presumably depend, as now, on how much spare capacity there is.

One thing is certain: if HS2 is not built, discounted fares on the WCML are likely to disappear as the operators will be struggling to cope with all the full fare passengers and will not need to attract more.

Jonathan

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Having just read part of Tony Berkeley's report - relating to an area which was part of my professional everyday working situation for a number of years and indeed an area in when I spent time training student engineers - I have to say that his words are disingenuous to say the very least when it comes to what he infers in Para 2.4 regarding the number of trains per hour.

This basically sums up the problems facing HS2 (and many other areas of science, technology and engineering). No matter how much careful analysis goes in to the decision by specialists, there always somebody who has spent 30 seconds on google and reckons they are wrong.

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My understanding is that HS2 is in addition to the existing trains as we supposibly need that extra capacity.......

It’s not in addition to the existing intercity services.

The existing trains, as in the intercity services on those routes, are being moved from the classic lines onto HS2.

This allows extra capacity on both the new line (with new signalling technology and all trains running at the same speeds) and the classic lines, where most of the intercity trains have been removed to make more paths available for local and regional trains, plus more opportunities for freight paths.
The HS2 captive stock can be of higher capacity too, including the option of fully exploiting full sized double deck stock.

16 minutes ago, Hobby said:

.......But what is needed is an integrated network but this, certainly as far as Brum, is a stand alone line with no onward connections to other parts of the West Midlands without station and train transfers... That is a big backward step.

Part of the original concept for HS2, was to focus on the larger part of the market, which is point to point.

Onward connections and being part of longer cross country journeys has never been a major part of the plan.

Having weighed up all the options, a captive, point to point route gave the best return.
With the exception of Liverpool, running “classic compatible “ trains off the end of the line to further afield destinations was only included to take advantage of the spare capacity, particularly north of Birmingham and to create “added value” to the line.

1 minute ago, Hobby said:

As one of those who did suggest that I will await the opening and ticket prices with interest. I'd be surprised if there is not a premium to use it as there currently is when comparing Avanti/LNW/Chiltern......

A premium over what?

Most of the core services run by Avanti (and any successor) will relocate from the WCML onto HS2, where the line is available.

All the talk of it being for “the elite”, or “rich business men”, or even being a a “white elephant “, ignores the fact that HS2 will be carrying the same passengers as those who use ICWC services today.

Ron

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So you don't like a new line using the best of contemporary and planned technology where it can make use of it. Would you prefer it to have semaphore signalling, no electrification, and be worked by steam locos hauling new build Mk 1 coaches ?

No, of course not. What a silly thing to suggest.

But I do think that Pendolinos should be able to use the new line as a diversion route in case there's a problem on the WCML, or in case there's a problem with the fleet of new HS2 trains, or maybe even by freight trains at night. All those things would be signs that the new route really is another part of the national rail network.

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The existing trains, as in the intercity services on those routes, are being moved from the classic lines onto HS2.

This allows extra capacity on both the new line (with new signalling technology and all trains running at the same speeds) and the classic lines, where most of the intercity trains have been removed to make more paths available for local and regional trains, plus more opportunities for freight paths.
The HS2 captive stock can be of higher capacity too, including the option of fully exploiting full sized double deck stock.

Part of the original concept for HS2, was to focus on the larger part of the market, which is point to point.

Onward connections and being part of longer cross country journeys has never been a major part of the plan.

A premium over what?

Most of the core services run by Avanti (and any successor) will relocate from the WCML onto HS2, where the line is available.

All the talk of it being for “the elite”, or “rich business men”, or even being a a “white elephant “, ignores the fact that HS2 will be carrying the same passengers as those who use ICWC services today.

Ron

1. Places like Coventry have been promised that they will still have express services to London, so HS2 trains are very much "in addition" to the WCML.

2. "Onward connections" are part of almost every rail jouney. What percentage of HS2 passengers will live within walking distance of an HS2 station? By making HS2 separate from the rest of the national network you instantly negate the attractiveness of going by train for very many potential passengers.

3. Is it not the case that fares on Kent trains that use HS1 are higher (i.e. "premium") than journeys using the old lines to London? I cannot believe that a similar policy won't apply to HS2 to try to recoup some of the eye-wateringly expensive construction costs.

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1. Places like Coventry have been promised that they will still have express services to London, so HS2 trains are very much "in addition" to the WCML.

2. "Onward connections" are part of almost every rail jouney. What percentage of HS2 passengers will live within walking distance of an HS2 station? By making HS2 separate from the rest of the national network you instantly negate the attractiveness of going by train for very many potential passengers.

3. Is it not the case that fares on Kent trains that use HS1 are higher (i.e. "premium") than journeys using the old lines to London? I cannot believe that a similar policy won't apply to HS2 to try to recoup some of the eye-wateringly expensive construction costs.

I think that Coventry will probably only get 2 express trains per hour and they will make more stops.

HS2 won't be that separate from the rest of the network.

I travelled to East Kent recently and there was no difference in the pricing. But I think that there still is if only travelling from Kent to London.

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I think that Coventry will probably only get 2 express trains per hour and they will make more stops.

I think Cov has been promised three express services per hour. How many more stops can be added before the train stops being an express, I wonder? And will fares go down to reflect the poorer service? I somehow doubt it!

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Even three (rather than 4) per hour is going to free up a couple of paths on the WCML if the Coventry train (presumably starting back in Wolverhampton) runs to a slower schedule that better matches other trains on the route. I would expect the stopping pattern to be Sandwell & Dudley, New Street, International, Rugby, Northampton, Milton Keynes and Watford Jct. 7 stops in 120 miles. Just about an express.

I would not expect them to be Pendolinos by then, or not for long anyway. They will be pretty much life-expired by then which makes the addition of any additional in-cab signalling system (for diversionary use on HS2) uneconomic. Anyway, putting a 125mph train on a line that is otherwise running trains at 200mph would completely foul up the timetable.

Edited January 23 by Joseph_PestellAdd

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Even three (rather than 4) per hour is going to free up a couple of paths on the WCML if the Coventry train (presumably starting back in Wolverhampton) runs to a slower schedule that better matches other trains on the route. I would expect the stopping pattern to be Sandwell & Dudley, New Street, International, Rugby, Northampton, Milton Keynes and Watford Jct. 7 stops in 120 miles. Just about an express.

I would not expect them to be Pendolinos by then, or not for long anyway. They will be pretty much life-expired by then which makes the addition of any additional in-cab signalling system (for diversionary use on HS2) uneconomic. Anyway, putting a 125mph train on a line that is otherwise running trains at 200mph would completely foul up the timetable.

Pity the poor sods in Wolverhampton, etc who currently have a good service of fast trains direct to London but, thanks to the wonderful "progress" that HS2 represents, will now have to put up with slower journeys or getting off at New St, walking to Curzon Street and waiting for the next HS2 train!

Of course, the problem of putting a 125mph train on the new line wouldn't arise if the new line wasn't being so ridiculously and expensively over-specified!

It is only a slight exaggeration to say that the only way HS2 could have been designed worse would have been for it to use a different gauge.

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Pity the poor sods in Wolverhampton, etc who currently have a good service of fast trains direct to London but, thanks to the wonderful "progress" that HS2 represents, will now have to put up with slower journeys or getting off at New St, walking to Curzon Street and waiting for the next HS2 train!

So you have seen the proposed timetables have you, or are you simply making assumption using your preconceived prejudices?

There will of course be some losers, there always are, but overall there will be many more who benefit, its just the way it is.

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@Flittersnoop what is your answer then, rather than just decry building a new railway, what would you have them do to give the railway more capacity?

If you care to read my comments you would see that I don't decry building a new railway. I, along with many other people, just think that in a small, densely populated island like Britain, building an expensive, ultra-high speed line like HS2 is completely the wrong thing to do. More "classic" lines would have been a better use of the money.