Does anyone else hate relying on healers/support?

For context I play dragonhunter. To maximize DPS, I feel like I have to throw away a lot of survivability tools. I do 'great' damage, sure, but my ability to stay alive is not that great. In most situations, I feel like 1 screw up can land you in a world of pain. Just venting/ranting. In PvP I can bring condi clear, heals, etc. and still do enough damage to get the job done. I just wish it was the same for raiding/fractals. One thing I hated about the holy trinity was having to rely on others. Meh

Comments

It is for fractals, you do not need a healer even for CMs at the highest level of play. The fact that many take one is a simple insurance against mistakes. If you up your game though it is more efficient without one.

This is somewhat similar to raids where you can reduce the required healers to 1 or even completely replace them for some boss fights if your group is good enough.

@mrauls.6519 said:
For context I play dragonhunter. To maximize DPS, I feel like I have to throw a way a lot of survivability tools. I do 'great' damage, sure, but my ability to live is not that great.

f2, f3, heal for dh are a really good sustain set. You might also bring the aegis shout in the third utility slot (dps loss is negligible in most situations)

The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

I want to point out that the linked video is probably completely useless and irrelevant to OP. If you have 5 players of that ability who can burst a boss so fast that it literally never attacks (i.e. you kill it in a single break bar) , then yes healers are pretty irrelevant. Seriously, do you guys have any appreciation for how much practice that takes? The amount of wiping, and optimization? That isn't realistic for lfg pug runs. Did you notice that around 4 mins in there is editing, and that when they go in to fight ark, there are 2 sets of banners already there? Even if they decided to precast banners, why would there be 2 sets? Its because they wiped trying to get a good pull.

If someone is in this forum, asking questions, they are almost certainly not in that situation. If you had 4 elite players to play with, you would just ask them these questions directly, rather than post on the forums.

@mrauls.6519 Is almost certainly pugging, i.e. joining 4 random players, some of whom think no healer is a good idea, and some who are so inexperienced they don't even healers are in the game. OP for casual fractal pugging, you should absolutely run a healer until your experienced enough to actually know whether or not you need one and have 4 friends joining you of similar skill level, and yes it is seriously annoying. What I personally do, when I join a fractal pug, if there is no healer I run a healer chrono, if there is a druid (condi or magi) I go typical boon/dps chrono. This gives me control over cc, boons, and healing. If those roles are already filled, only then will I go dps.

@thrag.9740 said:
I want to point out that the linked video is probably completely useless and irrelevant to OP. If you have 5 players of that ability who can burst a boss so fast that it literally never attacks (i.e. you kill it in a single break bar) , then yes healers are pretty irrelevant. Seriously, do you guys have any appreciation for how much practice that takes? The amount of wiping, and optimization? That isn't realistic for lfg pug runs. Did you notice that around 4 mins in there is editing, and that when they go in to fight ark, there are 2 sets of banners already there? Even if they decided to precast banners, why would there be 2 sets? Its because they wiped trying to get a good pull.

If someone is in this forum, asking questions, they are almost certainly not in that situation. If you had 4 elite players to play with, you would just ask them these questions directly, rather than post on the forums.

@mrauls.6519 Is almost certainly pugging, i.e. joining 4 random players, some of whom think no healer is a good idea, and some who are so inexperienced they don't even healers are in the game. OP for casual fractal pugging, you should absolutely run a healer until your experienced enough to actually know whether or not you need one and have 4 friends joining you of similar skill level, and yes it is seriously annoying. What I personally do, when I join a fractal pug, if there is no healer I run a healer chrono, if there is a druid (condi or magi) I go typical boon/dps chrono. This gives me control over cc, boons, and healing. If those roles are already filled, only then will I go dps.

Yeah well fractals were not designed with social awkwardness originally either.

I never said playing without healer is easy, hence why many people decide to take one (even for normal T4).

I refuted that a healer is NEEDED. They weren't needed in the past and the only content which they should be needed for is challenge modes and even those they are not mandatory. Every single fractal currently in game can be completed without a healer present, including challenge modes.

Chrono/Druid are mostly for buffing dps, any heals are extra and not actually needed other than to allow you to face tank attacks for higher dps. It's also not really possible to make pve content that doesn't rely on sustain at all for the average player, either everyone has to have high sustain on an individual level [then everything cna be clared by everyone effortlessly] or there needs to be potions; and I would rather have to deal with having a healer than worrying about potions. One thing I like about GW2 is you don't really need heals, and there's no need to worry about obnoxious potions for sustain.

I never said playing without healer is easy, hence why many people decide to take one (even for normal T4).

I refuted that a healer is NEEDED. They weren't needed in the past and the only content which they should be needed for is challenge modes and even those they are not mandatory. Every single fractal currently in game can be completed without a healer present, including challenge modes.

Oh well then let me be clear. I don't disagree with what you said here. But what your saying almost vacuous. If for every single piece of content in the game, there is at least a single example of that content being cleared without a healer, your statement is proven true. These examples exist, therefore it is true. In fact, even if there were content that was truly impossible to clear without a healer, it would be impossible to prove that a healer was required. Its the old saying, 'you can't prove a negative'.

So yes, your statement is true. A healer is never necessary. But that isn't what this thread is about. This thread is about OP venting about how frustrating their fractal clears have been. Chances are those clears are happening in a pug environment. What SC can do in a single edited video is irrelevant because SC and pug fractals have different goals. Pugs are typically looking for smooth consistent kills with complete strangers of varying skill level (i.e. safe strats) , not world records.

I never said playing without healer is easy, hence why many people decide to take one (even for normal T4).

I refuted that a healer is NEEDED. They weren't needed in the past and the only content which they should be needed for is challenge modes and even those they are not mandatory. Every single fractal currently in game can be completed without a healer present, including challenge modes.

Oh well then let me be clear. I don't disagree with what you said here. But what your saying almost vacuous. If for every single piece of content in the game, there is at least a single example of that content being cleared without a healer, your statement is proven true. These examples exist, therefore it is true. In fact, even if there were content that was truly impossible to clear without a healer, it would be impossible to prove that a healer was required. Its the old saying, 'you can't prove a negative'.

So yes, your statement is true. A healer is never necessary. But that isn't what this thread is about. This thread is about OP venting about how frustrating their fractal clears have been. Chances are those clears are happening in a pug environment. What SC can do in a single edited video is irrelevant because SC and pug fractals have different goals. Pugs are typically looking for smooth consistent kills with complete strangers of varying skill level (i.e. safe strats) , not world records.

It's actually very problematic that a lot of pugs don't really want smooth consistent skills (aka safe strats) and at times they actually want to mimic what the speedrunners are doing. We wouldn't have full zerk weavers trying to pug fractal CMs otherwise, when they could be comfy holosmiths, DHs or even Reapers. A lot of CM pug groups also do not take druids/healers in and expect the Chrono to do what healing is needed.

Aside from what you said (which I somewhat agree) I think people also sabotage themselves by requiring a healer in groups but pretending they can play things like Weaver and Deadeye in the intense environment of fractals. This is somewhat also true for raids where people could take DHs to KC but insist that their 10k DPS weaver is the best option because it is the best option for speedrunners.

IMO people translate the raid metateam in fractals, but the needs (and the difficulties) are not the same.
Sometimes in PUG it's seems inconceivable for players to rush the fractal without chrono; like "Oh my god we're gonna drop 80% of our DPS and die against trashmobs" "Oh my god we won't burst Subject 5, I don"t know what to do in that case I ragequit". No, man it's ok, we have 4 DPS, mights fury, just adapt.
I have also seen "OMG Druid why don't you heal ? I'm dead half the time", dude we want druid to be powerbuff, not your personnal babysitter, learn to play/place.

I also feel more secure with support classes, because you can't give too much confidence to others players. But you still have to learn to play,use mechanicals... Sometimes we do fractals with guild with 5"DPS" (edit: means no healing power/boonshare class) it works well, sometimes we have "metateam pug" but thick headed people who just spam their rotation without grasp the situation, expecting other player will heal them to heaven, put reflect, etc. (Example the "no pain no gain" pls Spellbreakers/chrono ... remove boons ...)

@Cyninja.2954 said:
It is for fractals, you do not need a healer even for CMs at the highest level of play. The fact that many take one is a simple insurance against mistakes. If you up your game though it is more efficient without one.

This is somewhat similar to raids where you can reduce the required healers to 1 or even completely replace them for some boss fights if your group is good enough.

Healers are not strictly required in this game except in a few raid encounters.

There was always healers in all PvE content, its just that they always ran Berserker before, Where do you think water fields, etc. come from? If you "wasted time" having tools like this in your build then you were usually (though not always) sacrificing DPS.

When you do "rely" on healers it makes for slower encounters, but they are guaranteed of success and low frustration.

The last one is important, as it changed the meta game for alot of pugs and small (<5 people) parties and guilds.

Overhauling the game to allow people to play pure supports (lets be honest, no one "just heals" in this game, they use a wide variety of powerful support tools), opened the PvE game up to thousands of people who cannot play DPS for many reasons, such as having disabilities, or just because they prefer to help instead of hurt. It was the best thing to happen to this game since it was released.

Honestly I know the feeling. In t4s I rarely drop Arcane Shield from my bar on weaver. The healer is not always the best, not always extant, and kitten happens all the time. I'd rather safely do good DPS then be dead with theoretically better DPS.

This affects different classes differently. The biggest offender IMO is Weaver, since no matter what DPS method you use you'll always end up in a vulnerable position.

"Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

I main healer in fractals. The problem is simply that A LOT of people don't dodge and sleep in all the AoEs. A healer is mandatory simply because a lot of players are unable to survive without one, even with some surviability tools.

Good support is just as much a part of the game as good DPS. Elite groups record ridiculous numbers because the quality of their support is just as good as their DPS. This type of content is designed to encourage such comps to prepare players for raids. You don’t even need to be that good at the game to do such content but the fact remains that there are better builds than others even in competitive play. If you don’t like it don’t do it. Elite static groups take 40-45mins to clear CMs/T4s/Recs with the no healer comps shown previously. By comparison most pugs take at least double the time. If you want to play your own build or w/e that’s up to you but don’t be surprised that your runs are taking forever.

As someone who plays healer/support firebrand i have to passionately disagree with you.

This game should provide options for player who want to play different play styles. I personally enjoy playing as a healer. Not everyone wants to play DPS or some self-sustaining dps hybrid. As a matter of fact I would even love if Anet further differentiates profession roles.

And I don't understand how can one screw up land you in a world of pain if you have dedicated healer in your party. That can happen only if you ignore some specific boss related mechanics that have some near instant kill consequences or something. Meaning, those are things that even with better self-sustain you wont survive.

This is far the only game where you dont need to rely on 2 classes everytime and everywhere, it just makes things faster on high level content. And sure, its quite mandatory on Raids unless youre a freak that likes to solo hard stuff.
Yet you complain.

Also this game is very open with compositions. Sure some classes works better than others, but out of the 9 classes (not counting elites) like half of them can function as healers, and I think there are more options that gives aclarity and quickness other than chrono? its just that Chrono/Durid combo is the god tier of the support comp, but that doesn't even matters on T4 (and probably CMs). There are other games that only certain jobs works exclusively as the DPS classes on a group, not here, you can literal DPS with every job.

Years just pass like trains
I wave but they don't sloow dooown~ don't slow doown~♪

@mrauls.6519 said:
For context I play dragonhunter. To maximize DPS, I feel like I have to throw a way a lot of survivability tools. I do 'great' damage, sure, but my ability to live is not that great. In most situations, I feel like 1 screw up can land you in a world of pain. Just venting/ranting. In PvP I can bring condi clear, heals, etc. and still do enough damage to get the job done. I just wish it was the same for raiding/fractals. One thing I hated about the holy trinity was having to rely on others. Meh

Yes ... only because it strayed from one the original reasons I chose to play the game. Now I'm dealing with people who think the only way to play the game is with a tank and healer and 8 DPS ... the only thing that saves this game from the fate of having to use that ONE engineered composition needed to win a PVE encounter is the low threshold needed to succeed.

If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

I love the fact that some ppl answer: you don't need a healer for fractals T4 CM and then they show a video of one of the best guilds. 95% of all T4 use one, it's normal, get used to it. Or if you don't like it, check every boss mechanic carefully so you don't have to rely on support.

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:
I love the fact that some ppl answer: you don't need a healer for fractals T4 CM and then they show a video of one of the best guilds. 95% of all T4 use one, it's normal, get used to it. Or if you don't like it, check every boss mechanic carefully so you don't have to rely on support.

That video was an example. If you believe Snow Crows are the only player who can manage challenge modes without a healer you are out of touch with the game.

Also TC was not even talking challenge modes, he was talking about normal T4 fractals which definitely do not need a healer.

The issue is as Obtena.7952 mentions: people are unwilling to improve far enough to actually play good enough to not need a healer. Something which was very common in the past and during vanilla (since no healers were available, only guardian as support) has shifted to people playing how they are used to from other MMOs (relying on the healer to keep them alive).

TC simply represents a fraction of players who do not know better because they were never introduced to this game without a healer.

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:
I love the fact that some ppl answer: you don't need a healer for fractals T4 CM and then they show a video of one of the best guilds. 95% of all T4 use one, it's normal, get used to it. Or if you don't like it, check every boss mechanic carefully so you don't have to rely on support.

You still don't need a healer. Completely random team comps, especially in lower tiers, seldom have one. And they manage, although it's more often than not wipe fest clown fiesta. That's the thing - having a healer makes your run a lot more reliable because the healers increase the tolerance toward mistakes. Good players don't make great many of those, so they can manage without a healer as well, in a completely different manner - by being extremely efficient.

That being said, there's nothing wrong with having a healer. It's teamplay.

@mrauls.6519 said:
For context I play dragonhunter. To maximize DPS, I feel like I have to throw a way a lot of survivability tools. I do 'great' damage, sure, but my ability to live is not that great. In most situations, I feel like 1 screw up can land you in a world of pain. Just venting/ranting. In PvP I can bring condi clear, heals, etc. and still do enough damage to get the job done. I just wish it was the same for raiding/fractals. One thing I hated about the holy trinity was having to rely on others. Meh

Yes ... only because it strayed from one the original reasons I chose to play the game. Now I'm dealing with people who think the only way to play the game is with a tank and healer and 8 DPS ... the only thing that saves this game from the fate of having to use that ONE engineered composition needed to win a PVE encounter is the low threshold needed to succeed.

Don't confuse "the only way to play the game" with "the only way I want to play the game. I've had my fair share of clown fiesta. Since I know how to avoid that, now, I have no intention of going back to it. You're free to disagree with me, in which case we just shouldn't play together. Simple, right?

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:
I love the fact that some ppl answer: you don't need a healer for fractals T4 CM and then they show a video of one of the best guilds. 95% of all T4 use one, it's normal, get used to it. Or if you don't like it, check every boss mechanic carefully so you don't have to rely on support.

That video was an example. If you believe Snow Crows are the only player who can manage challenge modes without a healer you are out of touch with the game.

Also TC was not even talking challenge modes, he was talking about normal T4 fractals which definitely do not need a healer.

The issue is as Obtena.7952 mentions: people are unwilling to improve far enough to actually play good enough to not need a healer. Something which was very common in the past and during vanilla (since no healers were available, only guardian as support) has shifted to people playing how they are used to from other MMOs (relying on the healer to keep them alive).

TC simply represents a fraction of players who do not know better because they were never introduced to this game without a healer.

LOL out of touch with the game. So like 95% are out of touch with the game according to your standards. You have a completely blurred picture of what is fact and what is what you see. Check gw2efficiency and you see what small percentage even do T4.

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:
I love the fact that some ppl answer: you don't need a healer for fractals T4 CM and then they show a video of one of the best guilds. 95% of all T4 use one, it's normal, get used to it. Or if you don't like it, check every boss mechanic carefully so you don't have to rely on support.

That video was an example. If you believe Snow Crows are the only player who can manage challenge modes without a healer you are out of touch with the game.

Also TC was not even talking challenge modes, he was talking about normal T4 fractals which definitely do not need a healer.

The issue is as Obtena.7952 mentions: people are unwilling to improve far enough to actually play good enough to not need a healer. Something which was very common in the past and during vanilla (since no healers were available, only guardian as support) has shifted to people playing how they are used to from other MMOs (relying on the healer to keep them alive).

TC simply represents a fraction of players who do not know better because they were never introduced to this game without a healer.

LOL out of touch with the game. So like 95% are out of touch with the game according to your standards. You have a completely blurred picture of what is fact and what is what you see. Check gw2efficiency and you see what small percentage even do T4.

Yes, playing without a healer is more difficult since it adds an element of safety in exchange for damage.
Yes, not everyone is willing or able to improve their game play far enough to do so.
There is enough people who are able to do so though and it is not only static guild groups but also PUG groups (which by its self already shows that the skill bar is not tthat high and achievable).
TC did not mention a skill level or ceiling for their statement, they merely stated that healers are needed, which is factually incorrect.

You decided to complain that the show video, which was meant as an example, was not valid or a work of magic. I responded in context to the thread. Better?

EDIT: and as far as the fractal issue, no part of the remainder of the game besides fractals and raids requires healers and lower fractal levels definitely do not need healers even at lower skill levels. So that point is moot.

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:
I love the fact that some ppl answer: you don't need a healer for fractals T4 CM and then they show a video of one of the best guilds. 95% of all T4 use one, it's normal, get used to it. Or if you don't like it, check every boss mechanic carefully so you don't have to rely on support.

That video was an example. If you believe Snow Crows are the only player who can manage challenge modes without a healer you are out of touch with the game.

Also TC was not even talking challenge modes, he was talking about normal T4 fractals which definitely do not need a healer.

The issue is as Obtena.7952 mentions: people are unwilling to improve far enough to actually play good enough to not need a healer. Something which was very common in the past and during vanilla (since no healers were available, only guardian as support) has shifted to people playing how they are used to from other MMOs (relying on the healer to keep them alive).

TC simply represents a fraction of players who do not know better because they were never introduced to this game without a healer.

LOL out of touch with the game. So like 95% are out of touch with the game according to your standards. You have a completely blurred picture of what is fact and what is what you see. Check gw2efficiency and you see what small percentage even do T4.

Yes, playing without a healer is more difficult since it adds an element of safety in exchange for damage.
Yes, not everyone is willing or able to improve their game play far enough to do so.
There is enough people who are able to do so though and it is not only static guild groups but also PUG groups (which by its self already shows that the skill bar is not tthat high and achievable).
TC did not mention a skill level or ceiling for their statement, they merely stated that healers are needed, which is factually incorrect.

You decided to complain that the show video, which was meant as an example was not valid or a work of magic. I responded in context to the thread. Better?

I do some runs without healer on T4 from time to time and it is usually much more hectic and in the end you can stay focused with DPS more and stand in some damaging fields without interrupting your rotation if you have one. Though - depending on the composition - it is also nice to have one with a lot of damage reduction. I then switch to auramancer and everything becomes faceroll since this one gives almost 100% protection and you have like 50% damage reduction all the time.

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:
I love the fact that some ppl answer: you don't need a healer for fractals T4 CM and then they show a video of one of the best guilds. 95% of all T4 use one, it's normal, get used to it. Or if you don't like it, check every boss mechanic carefully so you don't have to rely on support.

That video was an example. If you believe Snow Crows are the only player who can manage challenge modes without a healer you are out of touch with the game.

Also TC was not even talking challenge modes, he was talking about normal T4 fractals which definitely do not need a healer.

The issue is as Obtena.7952 mentions: people are unwilling to improve far enough to actually play good enough to not need a healer. Something which was very common in the past and during vanilla (since no healers were available, only guardian as support) has shifted to people playing how they are used to from other MMOs (relying on the healer to keep them alive).

TC simply represents a fraction of players who do not know better because they were never introduced to this game without a healer.

LOL out of touch with the game. So like 95% are out of touch with the game according to your standards. You have a completely blurred picture of what is fact and what is what you see. Check gw2efficiency and you see what small percentage even do T4.

Yes, playing without a healer is more difficult since it adds an element of safety in exchange for damage.
Yes, not everyone is willing or able to improve their game play far enough to do so.
There is enough people who are able to do so though and it is not only static guild groups but also PUG groups (which by its self already shows that the skill bar is not tthat high and achievable).
TC did not mention a skill level or ceiling for their statement, they merely stated that healers are needed, which is factually incorrect.

You decided to complain that the show video, which was meant as an example was not valid or a work of magic. I responded in context to the thread. Better?

I do some runs without healer on T4 from time to time and it is usually much more hectic and in the end you can stay focused with DPS more and stand in some damaging fields without interrupting your rotation if you have one. Though - depending on the composition - it is also nice to have one with a lot of damage reduction. I then switch to auramancer and everything becomes faceroll since this one gives almost 100% protection and you have like 50% damage reduction all the time.

Oh I absolutely agree, healers especially healing tempest make many parts of the game a lot easier and can be great at carrying. I have given the example of running W1-4 with a minstrel tempest as tank as substitute for one druid in the past. It was one of the smoothest experiences in those wings with PUGs I have ever had.

Healers break the design of the game since they were never originally planed for. The statement that healers are needed though remains untrue.

Ideally you have a healer but people close to good enough to not need one (if you were better no need for the healer). That way you finish content respectably quick but keep the safety for when things do go wrong. Unfortunately many are never challenged to get that good since terrible performance, persistence and a healer will get most things done.

the biggest problem with this game is that people still dont know how to play it

you can leave combat and change weapons/utilities.. while your team is still in combat (i realize some fights lock you in combat). out of combat you can change your spec in 45 seconds or less (which is why we're pretty well begging Arena Net for templates like GW1 had, seriously, where is it?). you should be using your "f" key buttons, weapon swaping and dodging like a kitten. you have to play like you have a.d.d. and you have to be aggressive. i see too many people trying to just sit back and zone out like they do in wow. you can't play this in zombie mode.

This is a balance, the more you have support classes, may be the better the DPS classes individually do dmg, but you also lose DPS classes.
People don't understand they sometimes shoot themself in the foot asking for chronoboon + Healer (druid) + BS and don't make it easier, on the contrary ... 2.5~3 slots dedicated to help only 2 DPS. Obviously you rely on support classes, because you can't burst the boss before it lands an attack, and gradually, time passing, you do mistakes, lose your healing skill, lose your rotation ...
Also this is not "instructional" to play on "easy mod"; how many players in T4 don't dodge, don't place themself, don't use the special skill, just run arround breaking all the platforms or pulling all mobs... because "there is a healer" ? It's worst when you expect a healer druid, and you have a powerbuff, and you die, and you ragequit, because it's the druid's fault. Or worse, when there is no real DPS, but berserker set with random selfish survival build, or the SB doesn't remove boon when "no pain no gain" etc etc.

In my guildmember experience, and PUG, don't take druid that is not necessary for a 5 man group. Start with chrono "healer", that is really easy to play since the recast and the f5 uptime, and 3-4 DPS. Tempest fresh-air is a good DPS to start with, it can add some dps to the group, suit well with pack of mobs and movable bosses, 40% protection and complete easily the 25 mights. War/BS obvioulsy for banners but also to remove boons frequently. DH are still great to Burst enemies, WoR, more stab, and f2-f3 can help without investing in a support spec or stat. And after that you'll move naturally with berserker chrono.

@Ralistu.1965 said:
the biggest problem with this game is that people still dont know how to play it

you can leave combat and change weapons/utilities.. while your team is still in combat (i realize some fights lock you in combat). out of combat you can change your spec in 45 seconds or less (which is why we're pretty well begging Arena Net for templates like GW1 had, seriously, where is it?). you should be using your "f" key buttons, weapon swaping and dodging like a kitten. you have to play like you have a.d.d. and you have to be aggressive. i see too many people trying to just sit back and zone out like they do in wow. you can't play this in zombie mode.

Um, what? I'm not sure we are playing the same game here. You don't have to play like you have ADD or aggressively at all. The threshold for success is relatively low here compared to other games. This allows for a large range of builds/skills to succeed.

If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:
I love the fact that some ppl answer: you don't need a healer for fractals T4 CM and then they show a video of one of the best guilds. 95% of all T4 use one, it's normal, get used to it. Or if you don't like it, check every boss mechanic carefully so you don't have to rely on support.

That video was an example. If you believe Snow Crows are the only player who can manage challenge modes without a healer you are out of touch with the game.

Also TC was not even talking challenge modes, he was talking about normal T4 fractals which definitely do not need a healer.

The issue is as Obtena.7952 mentions: people are unwilling to improve far enough to actually play good enough to not need a healer. Something which was very common in the past and during vanilla (since no healers were available, only guardian as support) has shifted to people playing how they are used to from other MMOs (relying on the healer to keep them alive).

TC simply represents a fraction of players who do not know better because they were never introduced to this game without a healer.

LOL out of touch with the game. So like 95% are out of touch with the game according to your standards. You have a completely blurred picture of what is fact and what is what you see. Check gw2efficiency and you see what small percentage even do T4.

Yes, playing without a healer is more difficult since it adds an element of safety in exchange for damage.
Yes, not everyone is willing or able to improve their game play far enough to do so.
There is enough people who are able to do so though and it is not only static guild groups but also PUG groups (which by its self already shows that the skill bar is not tthat high and achievable).
TC did not mention a skill level or ceiling for their statement, they merely stated that healers are needed, which is factually incorrect.

You decided to complain that the show video, which was meant as an example was not valid or a work of magic. I responded in context to the thread. Better?

I do some runs without healer on T4 from time to time and it is usually much more hectic and in the end you can stay focused with DPS more and stand in some damaging fields without interrupting your rotation if you have one. Though - depending on the composition - it is also nice to have one with a lot of damage reduction. I then switch to auramancer and everything becomes faceroll since this one gives almost 100% protection and you have like 50% damage reduction all the time.

Oh I absolutely agree, healers especially healing tempest make many parts of the game a lot easier and can be great at carrying. I have given the example of running W1-4 with a minstrel tempest as tank as substitute for one druid in the past. It was one of the smoothest experiences in those wings with PUGs I have ever had.

Healers break the design of the game since they were never originally planed for. The statement that healers are needed though remains untrue.

Ideally you have a healer but people close to good enough to not need one (if you were better no need for the healer). That way you finish content respectably quick but keep the safety for when things do go wrong. Unfortunately many are never challenged to get that good since terrible performance, persistence and a healer will get most things done.

I dissagre that healers were never planed for. The game always allowed you to make what ever build u wanted and healing build could very much be a thing.

With hot and beyond healing just got more interactive imho but the content has yet to really pick up the pace and create hectic healing evironments. Environments u usually see in games in wow and ff14.

But then again healing there is also alot more different so i dont 100% blame the devs for not for not acomplishing it yet.

@Ralistu.1965 said:
the biggest problem with this game is that people still dont know how to play it

you can leave combat and change weapons/utilities.. while your team is still in combat (i realize some fights lock you in combat). out of combat you can change your spec in 45 seconds or less (which is why we're pretty well begging Arena Net for templates like GW1 had, seriously, where is it?). you should be using your "f" key buttons, weapon swaping and dodging like a kitten. you have to play like you have a.d.d. and you have to be aggressive. i see too many people trying to just sit back and zone out like they do in wow. you can't play this in zombie mode.

People with mental and physical disabilities exist. You shouldn't assume that just because you play the game this way, that other people have to, or even have the capability of doing so, or that the development team balances around it - they don't. Balance is conducted around builds and basic rotations which is something that is achieveable even with a minimal APM with support from your group.

I have ADD myself and I most certainly do not play this way, attention-deficit means difficulty focusing.

Also alot of the reasons why action games fail is they push players too hard to the point of burn-out. One of the nice things about GW2 is you don't have to stay in hardcore mode all of the time and can just go do something else that doesn't need a high APM.

@Cyninja.2954 said:
It is for fractals, you do not need a healer even for CMs at the highest level of play. The fact that many take one is a simple insurance against mistakes. If you up your game though it is more efficient without one.

This is somewhat similar to raids where you can reduce the required healers to 1 or even completely replace them for some boss fights if your group is good enough.

you don't really need a healer in fracs. you can go chrono banners and 3 dps. kill the boss before mechanics hit you. also for raids like gorse you can avoid a healer like having condition or power druid instead healer druid and rest dps banners chronos.
the only healers that actually needed are like vg, sloth, matt, kc, maybe xera but some do it with condition druid which is enough for 'em. cairn, deimos, sh, dhuum, and w6.
1 healer is enough. but some bosses maybe like matt, dhuum, sh, largos, qadim you take 2 cuz it's a lot of pressure.

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:
I love the fact that some ppl answer: you don't need a healer for fractals T4 CM and then they show a video of one of the best guilds. 95% of all T4 use one, it's normal, get used to it. Or if you don't like it, check every boss mechanic carefully so you don't have to rely on support.

That video was an example. If you believe Snow Crows are the only player who can manage challenge modes without a healer you are out of touch with the game.

Also TC was not even talking challenge modes, he was talking about normal T4 fractals which definitely do not need a healer.

The issue is as Obtena.7952 mentions: people are unwilling to improve far enough to actually play good enough to not need a healer. Something which was very common in the past and during vanilla (since no healers were available, only guardian as support) has shifted to people playing how they are used to from other MMOs (relying on the healer to keep them alive).

TC simply represents a fraction of players who do not know better because they were never introduced to this game without a healer.

LOL out of touch with the game. So like 95% are out of touch with the game according to your standards. You have a completely blurred picture of what is fact and what is what you see. Check gw2efficiency and you see what small percentage even do T4.

Yes, playing without a healer is more difficult since it adds an element of safety in exchange for damage.
Yes, not everyone is willing or able to improve their game play far enough to do so.
There is enough people who are able to do so though and it is not only static guild groups but also PUG groups (which by its self already shows that the skill bar is not tthat high and achievable).
TC did not mention a skill level or ceiling for their statement, they merely stated that healers are needed, which is factually incorrect.

You decided to complain that the show video, which was meant as an example was not valid or a work of magic. I responded in context to the thread. Better?

I do some runs without healer on T4 from time to time and it is usually much more hectic and in the end you can stay focused with DPS more and stand in some damaging fields without interrupting your rotation if you have one. Though - depending on the composition - it is also nice to have one with a lot of damage reduction. I then switch to auramancer and everything becomes faceroll since this one gives almost 100% protection and you have like 50% damage reduction all the time.

Oh I absolutely agree, healers especially healing tempest make many parts of the game a lot easier and can be great at carrying. I have given the example of running W1-4 with a minstrel tempest as tank as substitute for one druid in the past. It was one of the smoothest experiences in those wings with PUGs I have ever had.

Healers break the design of the game since they were never originally planed for. The statement that healers are needed though remains untrue.

Ideally you have a healer but people close to good enough to not need one (if you were better no need for the healer). That way you finish content respectably quick but keep the safety for when things do go wrong. Unfortunately many are never challenged to get that good since terrible performance, persistence and a healer will get most things done.

I dissagre that healers were never planed for. The game always allowed you to make what ever build u wanted and healing build could very much be a thing.

With hot and beyond healing just got more interactive imho but the content has yet to really pick up the pace and create hectic healing evironments. Environments u usually see in games in wow and ff14.

But then again healing there is also alot more different so i dont 100% blame the devs for not for not acomplishing it yet.

Healers were never planed for, at least not dedicated healers.

Things you are forgetting:

A.) this was openly stated by developers before GW2 launched. The idea was that every class would have their own sustain skills and no one person should have to take that role
B.) healing coefficients were way different back when the game launched. There was little reason to take healing gear because the effect it had on actual healing was minimal and inefficient (healing others that is)
C.) traits and utility skills and most weapon skills were not designed with healing others in mind. The only reliable way to heal people initially was blasting fields and those almost did not scale at all with healing power
D.) Healing Power (called compassion during beta) primarily increased personal healing. Check the discussion page on the wiki for people talking about the low coefficients (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Talk:Healing_Power)
E.) it was not until HoT and druid that major rework went into making healing an actual role

So no, I have to disagree that healers were intended from the start. Neither the official communication from Arenanet nor their initial game design support this assumption.

Sure if you look at the game now and assume everything worked as it does now at launch you could make this assumption. Obviously that was not the case.

@Ralistu.1965 said:
the biggest problem with this game is that people still dont know how to play it

you can leave combat and change weapons/utilities.. while your team is still in combat (i realize some fights lock you in combat). out of combat you can change your spec in 45 seconds or less (which is why we're pretty well begging Arena Net for templates like GW1 had, seriously, where is it?). you should be using your "f" key buttons, weapon swaping and dodging like a kitten. you have to play like you have a.d.d. and you have to be aggressive. i see too many people trying to just sit back and zone out like they do in wow. you can't play this in zombie mode.

Um, what? I'm not sure we are playing the same game here. You don't have to play like you have ADD or aggressively at all. The threshold for success is relatively low here compared to other games. This allows for a large range of builds/skills to succeed.

well, ive been playing all facets of this game for 6 years.

the number one concern within the playerbase is the way people play it. pay attention to people and their concerns. I'm not talking about the "threshold for success", im talking about the overall experience of this game. thousands of people struggle with the fact that this is an action game. no, you dont have to play that way, but you'll be much better off if you do. you'll be less frustrated solo and if youre in group play, everyone benefits from playing an action game like an action game should be played. i mean..it is an action game after all. I watch characters die and complain about this stuff alllllllllll day. i even see it every time theres an event that pops up. every...time. someone thinks they suck, help them, its 100% correlated into how aggressive you play. play more aggressive and you wont die so much, seriously. its funny when people dont dodge... in an action game. go out there one day, solo and ignore your guild. watch for people that need help and watch them play. i promise you that they get better in 10 mins by playing more aggressively.

i assure you. Ive been playing guild wars two since beta and it's the number 1 thing that helps all players.

So have I, but the difference is that my experience is completely different. Yes it's an action game, but you don't need to snort a rail of cocaine to play it either. It's a game that caters to casual players ... it always has been. That means you can make mistakes. It means you can lose focus a little. It means you can play without being Chopin at the keyboard.

I'm not debating if you think playing more aggressively helps you play better. My point is that you don't need to for success. Not playing the game aggressively is not a problem here BECAUSE it's designed so you don't have to.

If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

It's not just that people don't know how to play the game. A lot of people can't. Hell, after a couple of updates and server changes I can't do good DPS anymore. At my apex I only hit about 80% of Snowcrows' numbers, even if I use the same build and same gear and same tactic and same buffs and same rotation. Regardless of how much I practice, it's like that magic 6k additional damage just doesn't exist. I'm not alone in this, either.

This is one of the biggest criticisms I have for the DPS system in this game. It is convoluted and difficult, and thus it is prone to variance from a lot of other places. In an ideal game, peak DPS on a static target should be a reasonable expectation with only moderate effort. The difficulty of the game should come from the enemies and the environment, not from fighting the interface.

"Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

Didn't run a healer during last night's T4 dailies, I dropped Renegade Heal and Elite skill a couple of times on us to help keep people alive, but we didn't need anything dedicated. A couple of players got crusty as they did die, blaming their deaths on too little dps which required them to understand boss mechanics. The rest of us however carried their dumbasses through content they had no idea how to play through without somebody babying them. IMO healers were added because Arena Net realised that most people are flat out bad at MMOs, and the expectation is to be able to sometimes stand in the fire.

The main healer will always be my favorite role in any group PvE. One of the reasons why I enjoy raids as much as I do.
That said, the over-reliance on healers nowadays can be rather silly. Most people are simply so used to having around everywhere. Makes you wonder if they ever managed to play through any dungeon or Fractal before HoT.

Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

@Henry.5713 said:
The main healer will always be my favorite role in any group PvE. One of the reasons why I enjoy raids as much as I do.
That said, the over-reliance on healers nowadays can be rather silly. Most people are simply so used to having around everywhere. Makes you wonder if they ever managed to play through any dungeon or Fractal before HoT.

The answer to that is no.
Most people didn't touch fractals in their prime pre-hot same can be said of dungeons.

It was pretty obvious on the old forums (sample size i know) but there was a thread that polled people who were excited for raids and asked what their previous experiences were in the game and something like less than 10% had achieved personal level 50. That should tell you the baseline of this game when it comes to what players were used to back then.

Healers make things more fun for me. Either it allows me to focus on things I find more fun, IE optimizing dps, or it allows me to make minor mistakes without it being disastrous. GW2 is such a punishing game without a healer. being 100% on all the time isn't fun.

More importantly, healers can be fun to play. Relying on healers, at worst, might make things a bit less fun for you ( Although I don't get that). From the perspective of a healer however, the world pre HOT where healers were unneeded didn't make things a bit less fun, it made it basically impossible to do the thing they found fun. And That just sucks.

I main a harrier druid most of the time.
Last night, during a daily recommended run I decided to switch over to a full viper's condi druid because I felt like I was over healing and some extra damage would speed thing along. No "healer" in lfg description.
My word I was so wrong. People were going splat all over the place and of course some poor soul thought it should blame the druid because I was not healing enough. And we were not even at the 1st boss, just trash mobs.
People truly got used to being healed all the time and nowadays don't even think about dodging, positioning or other boring stuff like that. Social awkwardness for too many people is considered a beneficial buff not a damaging one.
I might have caught a bad batch of players (all 200+ masteries) for that daily recommended, but my impression is that the type of batch I got yesterday is representative.
I know there are players good enough so they won't need strong healing even on highest fractal levels, but again, just my impression, those are a tiny minority.
I also know a lot of people keep saying the druid is mainly for buffs. That is not what I usually see.

To answer the op: I enjoy relying on others in mmorpgs, otherwise I would just play a single player game.
The problem is over reliance and people getting used to be carried while skipping intended tactics, standing in AoE all day long and trampling each other while having social awkwardness. All this while considering the healer not that important to the party's success.

Can you people stop with this holy trinity talk? Nobody told you to run chrono. If you dont want boons and easy tanking, dont run it. If you dont want banner buffs for dps increase for the whole group dont use them. Dont need heals or might? Dont run druid and go kill world bosses istead.

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
It's not just that people don't know how to play the game. A lot of people can't. Hell, after a couple of updates and server changes I can't do good DPS anymore. At my apex I only hit about 80% of Snowcrows' numbers, even if I use the same build and same gear and same tactic and same buffs and same rotation. Regardless of how much I practice, it's like that magic 6k additional damage just doesn't exist. I'm not alone in this, either.

This is one of the biggest criticisms I have for the DPS system in this game. It is convoluted and difficult, and thus it is prone to variance from a lot of other places. In an ideal game, peak DPS on a static target should be a reasonable expectation with only moderate effort. The difficulty of the game should come from the enemies and the environment, not from fighting the interface.

The game is balanced around 25%-50% of SC Damage though, I don't really see issues, or are you taggling world record speed clears? Then yes, it's an issue. At qT Damage Levels the difficulty just strait up dissapears. That makes it even more obvious that the game is balanced around MUCH less. Look at their 100cm run, it looks like the greatest joke ever existed, most mechanics are not even there really.

Viable != Optimal

Not viable = You only get carried, 10 players with a build as "viable as yours" can't properly do it.

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
It's not just that people don't know how to play the game. A lot of people can't. Hell, after a couple of updates and server changes I can't do good DPS anymore. At my apex I only hit about 80% of Snowcrows' numbers, even if I use the same build and same gear and same tactic and same buffs and same rotation. Regardless of how much I practice, it's like that magic 6k additional damage just doesn't exist. I'm not alone in this, either.

This is one of the biggest criticisms I have for the DPS system in this game. It is convoluted and difficult, and thus it is prone to variance from a lot of other places. In an ideal game, peak DPS on a static target should be a reasonable expectation with only moderate effort. The difficulty of the game should come from the enemies and the environment, not from fighting the interface.

The game is balanced around 25%-50% of SC Damage though, I don't really see issues, or are you taggling world record speed clears? Then yes, it's an issue. At qT Damage Levels the difficulty just strait up dissapears. That makes it even more obvious that the game is balanced around MUCH less. Look at their 100cm run, it looks like the greatest joke ever existed, most mechanics are not even there really.

I don't know what taggling means. Please define. It's not about joining speed clears, either: I usually find out that I'm expected to match Snowcrows when someone with no warning starts screeching about the issue after the first or second boss.

For any group activity, you're going to encounter two barriers: the design wall, and the community wall. It doesn't matter how small one barrier is if you can't climb over the other one. Being capable of beating content at 25% DPS doesn't mean squat if nobody will take you. Even if the game eats my inputs, cancels skills it shouldn't, and regularly throws half-second delays between initiating attacks, I'm better off than most. There are still more players who have it far worse than I do. GW2 has become more and more computer intensive as time has gone on, and the new challenges in the game require faster reaction time than the older content did. You don't hear much about it here, because non-raiders tend to stay away from the raid forum, but there are plenty of players who don't do this kind of content because their systems can't handle it.

"Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.