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By having unprotected sex we have expose ourself to HIV and got infected.

Are each of us fully responsible for our infection ?

How about stable relationship where one partner betray the other, get infected and infect his/her official partner ?

How about someone knowing he/she is infected by hiding it to you ?

Some courts have condemned some poz of having transmit HIV to their partner.So obviously, things are not always black or white as some are suggesting here, without knowing the story behind each infection.

we sometimes trust those we love and yes we made a mistake but we can't take full blame as those who infected us doesn't even know they have it and those who do well it was making a wrong call at the wrong time.

I'm not going to dwell on it or beat myself up about it. It happened. I learned. I try and take care of myself a bit better. I don't take drugs anymore. I don't speak to the person anymore. I've deleted their number from the phone. I don't blame them or myself.

Some courts have condemned some poz of having transmit HIV to their partner.So obviously, things are not always black or white as some are suggesting here, without knowing the story behind each infection.

In your case I always assumed from the many women you slept with that you did not know which one infected you and I also assumed you were infected many times over because... well... John you pull a lot of females. You should consider yourself lucky.... ummm like a stuntman. You jumped your motorcycle over buses many times without incident pleasing many audiences, but you jumped one too many times and that last time your wheel clipped a bus, sending you toppling over. Is it the crowds fault you hurt yourself?

So obviously, things are not always black or white as some are suggesting here, without knowing the story behind each infection.

Spell out what you are getting at. Do you mean you see people in this forum: "as some are suggesting here" -- want/insist that poz people take sole responsibility for their HIV infection, and furthermore, you rather disagree, because of individual circumstances? But that's not an option in the wording of your survey. Your survey is prescriptive:

How about stable relationship where one partner betray the other, get infected and infect his/her official partner ?

Define "stable relationship" here please. I know PLENTY of people who think a relationship is "stable" when they ought not. Some people might think 3 months is time to throw out the condoms, when others more wisely and prudently would not even consider that.

This is a rather narrow, loaded and ungrammatical question don't you think? I am me and you are virtually you, but are we a "WE" and are we a "WE" with the Thai working girls who need that extra buck for their kid's school fees of the russian soldiers shooting up amphetamines in a cold serbian winter, or the kid who's mother didn't get her nevirapine in time and many other scenarios?

I think blame (responsibility) is a loaded word and don't think it's helpful. It takes the focus off the reasons why people become infected and makes being infected with HIV sound like a bad/evil thing that must be punished! And even still, accepting how we've come to be infected can take a long time. Why must we all accept blame/responsibility at others' insistence? We all have our own journey to take.

John, you say "we" and then you say "each of us." Which is it? Collective or individual? If it's individual, shouldn't the choices be yes or no? If it's "we," then why use the word "each"? Once again you've created a poll that doesn't make sense to an end that no one can figure out.

This is a rather narrow, loaded and ungrammatical question don't you think? I am me and you are virtually you, but are we a "WE" and are we a "WE" with the Thai working girls who need that extra buck for their kid's school fees of the russian soldiers shooting up amphetamines in a cold serbian winter, or the kid who's mother didn't get her nevirapine in time and many other scenarios?

Excellent point.. power is a prerequisite to responsibility, even if we accept the idea of responsibility.

I'm responsible for becoming infected with HIV, but I certainly can't answer for others. If your question refers to those infected from unprotected promiscuous activity, then I'd answer yes. If you're referring to people who were infected by an unfaithful spouse / partner, the answer isn't so clear cut. How about a child born with HIV from an infected mother? Surely that child isn't responsible for becoming infected. Still others were infected from blood transfusions; how are they responsible for being infected?

I don't think this question can be answered with a check mark or selection on a web forum. If the question was "Are you responsible for your HIV infection?", I think you'd be able to get 'real' answers. As it is, how can any of us answer for other HIV+ people in general?

I hardley ever read your posts I find the majority of them pretty pointless, you are always be asking pointless questions from the other members....well here's one for you:

When the hell are you going to stop playing the frigging victim?

I think the only reason you put up threads like this is because you are waiting for someone to tell you, you were not the one to blame, you were the innocent party in all this... get over yourself John I'm sick of you flooding this forum with your personal crap...you had unprotected sex, you got infected..frigging wise up and deal with it.

Jan(who will gladly take a 7 day TO for this post)

Edited to add.... I would like John, Leatherman and others to know that I posted this as a Member and not as a Moderator of these forums.

I have learned that it's the way some folks deal with their internal turmoils by making it everyone's problem - a public issue. I was told to just ignore this type of thread instead of trying to make a point about this pointlessness.

Whoa! Aren't you making quite an assumption, that everyone here got HIV from unprotected sex? In my case, it had to have come from an instance when the condom broke (I remember the fellow saying it, quite nonchalantly "Oh, I think the condom broke" ).

Whoa! Aren't you making quite an assumption, that everyone here got HIV from unprotected sex? In my case, it had to have come from an instance when the condom broke (I remember the fellow saying it, quite nonchalantly "Oh, I think the condom broke" ).

How friggin ironic!! I use to always say "Ut oh, I think the condom broke!!"

Once again, he's doing his own psychoanalysis I have learned that it's the way some folks deal with their internal turmoils by making it everyone's problem - a public issue. I was told to just ignore this type of thread instead of trying to make a point about this pointlessness.

I am in the extreme minority here--not just because of my age, 66. In my now-unique case I must state that I am not responsible for my infection. What I am responsible for is choosing to ignore the dictates of organized religion, the laws of the government at that time, and the warnings from my mother and participating in sodomitical relations with other gay men. My last sexual activity with another human being was September 10, 1982. I was infected with HIV in 1982 or earlier. (And I do not regret anything I did for the preceding twenty years.) At that time, boys and girls, no one knew that there was a virus that came to be called HIV, and no one had "scientifically" and definitively proven how to prevent its acquisition.

I have known over 150 ex-lovers, friends, and acquaintances who have died from AIDS-related complications, beginning with the time when this pandemic was known as GRID (Gay-Related Immune Deficency). IMHO, a majority of these were infected prior to having any knowledge of this then-fatal illness.

How do we play the "responsibility" game with all those who died in the 1980s and even later? I do not wish to forget any of them or to malign their memories with playing the blame game in the 2000s. I realize the situation is entirely different today, but I just wanted to remind everyone of what happened to an entire generation of "innocent" gay men. R.I.P.

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"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

In my now-unique case I must state that I am not responsible for my infection. What I am responsible for is choosing to ignore the dictates of organized religion, the laws of the government at that time, and the warnings from my mother and participating in sodomitical relations with other gay men.

I've ignored all those too (all my life). But none of these necessarily result in HIV infection -- unprotected sex does. I'm responsible for my infection because I engaged in unprotected sex.

Quote

My last sexual activity with another human being was September 10, 1982. I was infected with HIV in 1982 or earlier.

And I thought it's been a long time since I had sex.

Quote

How do we play the "responsibility" game with all those who died in the 1980s and even later? I do not wish to forget any of them or to malign their memories with playing the blame game in the 2000s. I realize the situation is entirely different today, but I just wanted to remind everyone of what happened to an entire generation of "innocent" gay men. R.I.P.

Agreed -- there was a time when people didn't know about HIV or AIDS. Even today, there are people who do not. So does ignorance mean you are not responsible, while knowledge means you are? This discussion ends up degenerating into an endless debate, which in my opinion is pointless. So what if someone is responsible or not? You still have to deal with the consequences.

Regards,

Henry

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"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love." - Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

But none of these necessarily result in HIV infection -- unprotected sex does. I'm responsible for my infection because I engaged in unprotected sex.

The point I was trying to make is simply that there were thousands who did nothing more than engage in gay sex before it was known that protection against a lethal virus was necessary. There was no such thing as "protected" or "unprotected" sex. It was just sex, glorious sex, when the worst that could happen would be a nasty--yet easily curable--STD. I was using myself as an example of such a dinosaur who is still alive and roaming the earth.

This discussion ends up degenerating into an endless debate, which in my opinion is pointless.

I'm sorry if it seemed I was trying to debate, which I am not. I just wished to point out some history about the early years of the pandemic, which are often ignored, and why I could not answer the OP's multiple-choice quiz. It was also an indirect attempt to show another reason why it can be impossible to assign "blame" when an artifact of nature, a virus, is the cause.

Those who are obsessed in assigning blame need to read Randy Shilts's "And the Band Played On: Politics, People, and the AIDS Epidemic." (And please don't anyone start shrieking about the Patient Zero controversy, which was a CDC construct and blown up by the media, but who was essential in proving the sexual transmissability of the virus.)

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"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Perhaps instead of worrying about who's responsible for our HIV infection, we should concentrate on dealing with our HIV infection.

It's like asking an adopting parent who's responsible for their children. I doubt they'd focus their thoughts on the actual conception, etc of the child from sperm and egg, but more who clothes the kids, feeds 'em, tries to keep them from harm, etc. You know, being responsible for their children.

Thanks for your post, it really gives a different perspective not mentioned prior in this thread. While I am familiar with the history of this pandemic, hell to be honest with you, that is the first time I've seen it presented in regards to this type question. Good point.

I think some in this forum should stop from now accusing others as being the only one responsible of their own HIV infection even if they got it during unprotected sexual intercourse.

So far, it is not the point of view that is sharing the majority of the people who have participate to this poll. In more to be an unproductive, useless and irrespectful attitude.

John8675309,

Where has anyone accused in this thread? Being told to take responsibility for your part in having unprotected sex is not accusing you of anything. It is a reality that is clouded by anger right now because you were recently diagnosed, I've seen it many times including within myself. Some of us are not as strong as others to accept are part in our own infection while others do so and move on. Can't you see how this has consumed you? Unless you were raped, in today's world if you got it from unprotected sex it is your fault.

I think what you are angry about is the betrayal of your own trust that the other person was negative. Who's fault is that? Who you trust is your responsibility correct?

First, what purpose does asking me or anyone else the generalized wide sweeping question "Are we responsible of our HIV infection ?". I know how I was infected (unsafe sex) and who was responsible (ME). Knowing and ACCEPTING those facts allow for an easy answer. However due to the use of "we" how do I answer when I think of HIV+ folks living in an African country whose government refused to provide education and prevention resources early on because their leader was in denial about the very existence of HIV. This is a frivolous exercise.

Secondly, personally speaking on an individual basis, it really doesn't matter who was responsible for my HIV infection. The fact is I am and rather than worry about responsibility and blame, I have chosen to accept, deal and move on. I do see some benefit to proper research regarding reasons for HIV infection which might reveal results that help prevent future infections. And I dare say this type of research has been done and continues to be.

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"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it." Nelson Mandela

I think some in this forum should stop from now accusing others as being the only one responsible of their own HIV infection even if they got it during unprotected sexual intercourse.

If not the responsibility of those of us who became infected (except for those infected prior to the discovery of HIV and prevention measures) due to unprotected sex, then whose responsibility is it? One can argue all they want that it is the responsibility of both parties to discuss HIV prior to sex and take appropriate action, however in the end the responsibility lies at the individuals feet or for that matter any other part of the human body. I don't care how hot the guy was, how healthy he looked or how honest she was.

« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 10:52:30 AM by woodshere »

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"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it." Nelson Mandela

If not the responsibility of those of us who became infected (except for those infected prior to the discovery of HIV and prevention measures) due to unprotected sex, then whose responsibility is it? One can argue all they want that it is the responsibility of both parties to discuss HIV prior to sex and take appropriate action, however in the end the responsibility lies at the individuals feet or for that matter any other part of the human body. I don't care how hot the guy was, how healthy he looked or how honest she was.

You are mentioning part of the story.For the others part, just know that betraying, trust, lie, believe, and so are in the dictionary.Without trust, believe in someone, there is almost nothing you can do in this world.Not even eat food. Following your reasoning, you should check yourself if the milk you just bought don't contains melatonin.The world you are describing is not the world in which we live.You should argue with more options.

It is so funny to me to try to marginalize members on a website devoted to how to live with HIV. It is a shitty virus that unfortunately, no matter the cause, we all have to deal with in our lives.

How about the way you get it.

My point is not to discuss on whether or not it is possible to live with the virus, accept the reality and so.It is: don't judge someone on why he/she get infected assuming it has necessarily to be his fault.When it is not, you are hurting twice the same person.Maybe that's why disclosing seems so difficult for some..

You are mentioning part of the story.For the others part, just know that betraying, trust, lie, believe, and so are in the dictionary.Without trust, believe in someone, there is almost nothing you can do in this world.

thanks for letting me know what words are in the dictionary. I agree that we must have trust and believe in others. Unfortunately that trust is sometimes broken and we must deal with the consequences of that broken trust. But I still believe that one bears responsibility in the decision making processs regarding who to trust.

My point is not to discuss on whether or not it is possible to live with the virus, accept the reality and so.It is: don't judge someone on why he/she get infected assuming it has necessarily to be his fault.

Once again, you've put your questions out there and then you get upset when you get answers with which you don't agree. In your other threads you spend who-knows-how-much time researching to get information that you apply to your arguments to prove everybody wrong. Now you've started a thread where you can't quote source after source except for the voices here, and it's forced you to reply in a way that comes across as "Well that's what YOU say..."

Above you finally start showing some of your feelings, and it shows that you are hurt, and feel betrayed, and want to scream out that your trust was broken. That's all fine, except that some people here are trying to help you get PAST all that and to a healthier place where you can stop obsessing about the science, stop obesssing about the treatment that just months ago you were saying you might not ever need, and stop blaming everyone includingyourself.

I rarely say this to anyone, but yesterday I wished you peace. Today, I wish you help. Find help, recognize it, and accept it. I don't know what else to do for you at this time.

Basquo you are caring, and whether or not you are right, I appreciate.

Honestly, I have accept to live with this virus.My reaction was turned peacefully against those who continuously like to say:assume, cause it's your fault.

To mention the post of someone: Eh? What SHE did? Are you incapable of putting a condom on your own damned penis?

You really are beyond belief.

It's about judging others nothing else.

Regarding science, I'm curious since I'm born, it is maybe an obsession, but it make me really happy in my life. Publishing news in this website never take me more than 30 min.Just registered to some rss feed. But I can understand the perception you can have from it.

Still, the discussion here should be above my personal case that shouldn't interest anyone here.It's about judging. If we wasn't judged, most of us will disclose probably more easily. Right ?Judging others without knowing the facts is a mistake.

In typical fashion you continually deflect the point that has been made about YOU judging someone else.

And as Creighton/Basquo stated somewhat, the concern is that you've not mentally dealt with your infection, and this has now gone on for 14 months going by your very first thread on this web forum.

Speaking of that first thread, I'm curious how your lying, duplicitous Typhoid Mary girlfriend morphed from African to Thai. Was that just an innocent error or am I misunderstanding something in the story line?

At the end, we are the only one responsible for our life.Democracy is meaningless, just anarchy.

How can one answer "Always" or "Never" is out of my understanding.

Of course he should be held accountable for his actions. However I had the understanding that the thread was about responsibility, not cases involving criminal intent. And for the record I found the poll to be frivolous and did not choose an answer.

Basquo you are caring, and whether or not you are right, I appreciate.

It's about judging others nothing else.Still, the discussion here should be above my personal case that shouldn't interest anyone here.It's about judging. If we wasn't judged, most of us will disclose probably more easily. Right ?Judging others without knowing the facts is a mistake.

I have yet to see anyone being judged in this thread. If it is there it must be visible only to whoever feels they are being judged. I think there is far more going on here than meets the eye and am beginning to wish I had not entered the discussion and now unless referred to later will exit.

« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 01:38:43 PM by woodshere »

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"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it." Nelson Mandela

you are welcome to leave the discussion if you feel it is the best you can do or just what you want to do.

Miss Philicia

I have never been interested, most of time, in reading your point of view that I am convinced you are considering as outstanding.They are not, IMHO mainly because again and again you are talking without knowing the fact.The morphism you are talking about is just another crazy things.You are investing to much of your time assuming what you just don't know.

Me too, I also almost never talk like that. And if I do, it's always against the same people. And you are part of them. The vast majority just stay silent, reading only what they care about, and staying out of your mini world that make you proud of you, as well as the little tribe you are trying each time to impress.But me, Philly, I don't care. You see ? Blame no blame, ban no ban, I going where the sun keep shining, and I am happy like that. You are just not impacting my life, maybe distracting me, but I am not even sure.

Actually John, Philly does have a point. I thought you were being picked on. But I did read that you said you were infected by a girl in Africa. Now you're getting blood samples from the girl that infected you in Thailand.

You have a right to lie about the situation, but I don't know why you need to drag everyone into a discussion about whether your sexual health/infection was solely your responsibility, if you also want to conceal the truth.