OK, I've seen lots of anime/manga where the "villains" either make a bogus prophecy or twist an existing one deliberately so that the "hero" who may thwart them looks like a demon who must be killed (perfect example, Scrapped Princess).

How about something a little different? Are there any setups where the prophecy is real, but we(humanity) screw up ourselves somehow? A few pages are missing, words smudged, we interpret a passage wrong, stuff like that. We have a true prophecy foretelling a coming disaster and the one(s) who can save us, but we somehow misunderstood and think that they're the demons who brought this upon us.

One example is something I'd speculated on when watching Kyoran Kazoku Nikki. It seemed odd that such diverse beings, completely different species, were supposed to be cousins. So what if the DNA sample was contaminated, contained Enka's tissue and some blood from the warriors who killed him? The legend is completely intact, but a small error results in the direct descendants of ancient heros being targeted as demons destined to someday destroy everything.

Rather than some big bad deliberately rewriting legends and prophecies, I'd like to see something where our own error sets us to try and exterminate our last and only hope.

Sackett

2010-05-15 01:20

I'm pretty sure there are examples of that.

The Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan is actually that in spades.

Can't think of an anime with that... except maybe Neon Genesis Evangelion, depending on how you interpret the ending. I tend to think it was a monstrous screw-up on the part of SEELE in interpreting what the result of Instrumentality would be.

SeijiSensei

2010-05-15 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seiryuu
(Post 3048556)

One example is something I'd speculated on when watching Kyoran Kazoku Nikki.

How about some spoiler tags there?

Haak

2010-05-15 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seiryuu
(Post 3048556)

How about something a little different? Are there any setups where the prophecy is real, but we(humanity) screw up ourselves somehow? A few pages are missing, words smudged, we interpret a passage wrong, stuff like that. We have a true prophecy foretelling a coming disaster and the one(s) who can save us, but we somehow misunderstood and think that they're the demons who brought this upon us.

You've just described Serei no Moribito. I recommend it.

I guess The Wheel of Time sort of counts, but it's more like no one understands how it will happen, but it just happens in the very way you thought wasn't possible. I think A Song of Ice and Fire is a much better example if you're looking for a fantasy series.

I didn't use spoilers because the only parts that weren't present in the basic premise were my personal speculations. By the end of ep1, we know all of the "children of Enka" that bore the genetic markers, and we know the basic legend of Enka as well. Anyone who takes a look can see that the "family" is too diverse to conceivably have such a recent ancestor in common.
Thus, from merely the basic setting of the story, I had speculated about the possibility of the genetic samples from Enka's corpse being contaminated, possibly with blood or tissue from the ones who killed it. This was pure speculation, but it would mean that the test proved actually that they were descended either from the demon or the demon-slayers. I have not read the novels, so I don't know if something like this happens. I'd just thought it would be interesting if the dreaded demon children were actually the potential heroes, and the mistaken identity resulted purely from a stupid mistake.

I'm looking both for prophecies and legends of recurring events. In this sense, I think Shina dark might fit, does anyone know enough of the story to say? What I know is that this "satan" is supposed to come every 1000 years and bring chaos, but really all the lazy guy wants is to be left alone. I recall that countries sent beautiful maidens to be his harem to appease him, but he wasn't the least bit interested from what I know. Again, this is just from the basics from the first couple chapters, not a major spoiler.

Cynor

2010-05-15 22:06

Spoiler for Possible Spoilers:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seiryuu
(Post 3049832)

I didn't use spoilers because the only parts that weren't present in the basic premise were my personal speculations. By the end of ep1, we know all of the "children of Enka" that bore the genetic markers, and we know the basic legend of Enka as well. Anyone who takes a look can see that the "family" is too diverse to conceivably have such a recent ancestor in common.
Thus, from merely the basic setting of the story, I had speculated about the possibility of the genetic samples from Enka's corpse being contaminated, possibly with blood or tissue from the ones who killed it. This was pure speculation, but it would mean that the test proved actually that they were descended either from the demon or the demon-slayers. I have not read the novels, so I don't know if something like this happens. I'd just thought it would be interesting if the dreaded demon children were actually the potential heroes, and the mistaken identity resulted purely from a stupid mistake.

Still, even if you just assumed that it could be totally true and people may or may not have realized that in the first episode also. The fact is, it's always better to be safe than sorry, and even if you're just assuming something, put spoiler tags. That way people who haven't seen the series, didn't make the connection, etc, wont have a plot point spoiled for them. Sure, if it turns out to be wrong then no harm, but what if it's actually true? Put yourself in their shoes for a moment... how would you feel if you read what someone assumed before watching a series, and then that turned out to be true and ruined a big plot twist for you? Now imagine if that same person put it in spoiler tags saying something like "possible series spoilers"? You likely wouldn't click to show them, wouldn't accidentally read them, etc, and then all would be well and good rather than you getting mad at that person.

All that said...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seiryuu
(Post 3049832)

I'm looking both for prophecies and legends of recurring events.

My-Hime fits that. Although it's not totally clear at first whats repeating, but there is some recurring events and people wanting to break them and such. Could fit well.

Also, I'll second Seirei no Moribito. When I first read the thread I knew I had seen a series or two like that, but couldn't remember the name of any for the life of me. Once Seirei no Moribito was said though I remembered it.

Seiryuu

2010-05-16 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynor
(Post 3049858)

Still, even if you just assumed that it could be totally true and people may or may not have realized that in the first episode also. The fact is, it's always better to be safe than sorry, and even if you're just assuming something, put spoiler tags. That way people who haven't seen the series, didn't make the connection, etc, wont have a plot point spoiled for them. Sure, if it turns out to be wrong then no harm, but what if it's actually true? Put yourself in their shoes for a moment... how would you feel if you read what someone assumed before watching a series, and then that turned out to be true and ruined a big plot twist for you? Now imagine if that same person put it in spoiler tags saying something like "possible series spoilers"? You likely wouldn't click to show them, wouldn't accidentally read them, etc, and then all would be well and good rather than you getting mad at that person.

All that said...

My-Hime fits that. Although it's not totally clear at first whats repeating, but there is some recurring events and people wanting to break them and such. Could fit well.

Also, I'll second Seirei no Moribito. When I first read the thread I knew I had seen a series or two like that, but couldn't remember the name of any for the life of me. Once Seirei no Moribito was said though I remembered it.

Spoiler for possible spoiler for books, but not the anime:

Sorry, but literally the stuff I presented that was in the story was also in the advertisements and basic descriptions. The very description of the premise is that a "family" is created to observe a diverse collection of organisms that all were identified as descendants of a demon and destined to destroy the world. Just looking at a commercial will tell you that this family includes humans, jellyfish and lions. Thus, for them to have one ancestor who was killed by humans is a bit of a stretch. So all I really did was line up the facts from the premise, that you have a broad range of diverse creatures supposedly descended from a single recent ancestor

I generally won't use spoilers for something that is mere speculations that I had during and after the show, at least not unless the speculations are based on revelations that come within the show. The show doesn't go through the whole story, which I don't think is finished yet, so I myself have yet to find out if there's any basis. I was just using the idea, which has nothing to do with the plot in the show, as an example of what I'm looking for, a prophecy or recurrent legend that has been corrupted unintentionally by circumstance, misinterpretation, and stupidity, or an accurate prophecy with some manner of data collection that is faulty (like comparing something to a degraded or contaminated example), either way resulting in the heroes being persecuted as villains purely by accident.

Another example of situations and predictions that are completely up in the air is Ichiban Ushiro no Dai-Maou. We have a guy who's been labeled as the coming Demon King, and he wants to prove the supposition of future villainy wrong or break free from whatever is causing it. That's just the basic idea, no spoiler. I can't really say how he was identified as a demon king, or what may be going on in the background. I don't know if he is what they say he is, and I don't know if what they call the "demon king" is what they think it is. All I know is the "hero" has to prove that he's not a prophecied "villain".

From what I've garnered about it, it looks like Moribito is one show that fits the bill well. I'm not sure about My-HiME, since it's a legend that's hidden in the background and there's not really anything I saw that was misinterpreted. Some secrets were kept by people with their own agendas, but there wasn't any unintended corruption of the past or future predictions that I know of.

One other idea of interest would be a legend or prophecy that has never been allowed to play itself out. No one knows how it's going to end, because we are afraid to find out. No one's going to take the kind of risks they speculate might exist, so no one can guess what waits them on the completion of the event. Please note that I don't want something where the event is allowed to play out and turns out to be as bad as it seems. I want something where either the conclusion is positive or it can be positive if handled/controlled right.

Cynor

2010-05-16 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seiryuu
(Post 3050346)

From what I've garnered about it, it looks like Moribito is one show that fits the bill well. I'm not sure about My-HiME, since it's a legend that's hidden in the background and there's not really anything I saw that was misinterpreted. Some secrets were kept by people with their own agendas, but there wasn't any unintended corruption of the past or future predictions that I know of.

Ya Moribito does fit well, so really I'd get it if you think you'd like the story.

My-Hime was more on the part where you said a "recurring" prophecy/event type thing. I didn't realize you were still looking for the botching of said event as you were saying "I'm also interested in..." There isn't any "botching" in the "prophecy" from My-Hime, but it does recur every couple hundred years. I will admit that it never goes into great detail about the past occurrences though, so one could say it's more in the background. However, it's referenced a lot, and does form the basis for everything that is going on in the series.

Forsaken_Infinity

2010-05-16 16:57

Seirei No Moribito doesn't actually fit the description in its entirety, but it kinda counts nonetheless.

Spoiler:

Chagum (the prince, IIRC, that's his name) is hunted because of a BOTCHED prophecy, not because of misinterpretation of a prophecy. The Yakue(or whatever the natives were called) shaman and the start diviner misinterpret the nature of the spirit but that had more to do with the deliberate trampling of the foundation story than an error on their part. It's still a great show and should fit the rest of the description though.

Cynor

2010-05-16 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity
(Post 3050933)

Seirei No Moribito doesn't actually fit the description in its entirety, but it kinda counts nonetheless.

Spoiler:

Chagum (the prince, IIRC, that's his name) is hunted because of a BOTCHED prophecy, not because of misinterpretation of a prophecy. The Yakue(or whatever the natives were called) shaman and the start diviner misinterpret the nature of the spirit but that had more to do with the deliberate trampling of the foundation story than an error on their part. It's still a great show and should fit the rest of the description though.

Besides the whole "demons who brought this upon us" part thats still fitting pretty well with what he asked for in the first post. I don't think he cares how/where/when the botching/misinterpretation happens, just that it did. Which in that case it fits pretty much perfectly.

Seiryuu

2010-05-16 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity
(Post 3050933)

Seirei No Moribito doesn't actually fit the description in its entirety, but it kinda counts nonetheless.

Spoiler:

Chagum (the prince, IIRC, that's his name) is hunted because of a BOTCHED prophecy, not because of misinterpretation of a prophecy. The Yakue(or whatever the natives were called) shaman and the start diviner misinterpret the nature of the spirit but that had more to do with the deliberate trampling of the foundation story than an error on their part. It's still a great show and should fit the rest of the description though.

I was asking for botched, misinterpreted, or otherwise faulty prophecies, so that's no problem. Whether it's a misinterpretation of the prophecy, a missing piece of the "text", a mistake in reading the real world situation or anything else, it just has to have the hero labeled as a villain/demon, or as a being that must be slain for any reason, on account of error rather than malicious manipulation. I've seen enough cases of powers-that-be making false prophecies or twisting existing ones to turn them against their foes, but I haven't seen as many cases where something within the whole matter was just plain wrong. Perhaps another way to say it wold be BROKEN prophecy, since the original prophecy's meaning is lost or inverted due to a break within its preservation, interpretation and analysis of related real world data.

Most of the time, the best I get is stories where as I watch I can easily speculate there being a mistake or accident resulting in the apparent "hero" being condemned (such as Kyouran Kazoku). The speculation proves wrong most of the time, unfortunately.

Forsaken_Infinity

2010-05-16 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seiryuu
(Post 3051056)

I was asking for botched, misinterpreted, or otherwise faulty prophecies, so that's no problem. Whether it's a misinterpretation of the prophecy, a missing piece of the "text", a mistake in reading the real world situation or anything else, it just has to have the hero labeled as a villain/demon, or as a being that must be slain for any reason, on account of error rather than malicious manipulation. I've seen enough cases of powers-that-be making false prophecies or twisting existing ones to turn them against their foes, but I haven't seen as many cases where something within the whole matter was just plain wrong. Perhaps another way to say it wold be BROKEN prophecy, since the original prophecy's meaning is lost or inverted due to a break within its preservation, interpretation and analysis of related real world data.

Most of the time, the best I get is stories where as I watch I can easily speculate there being a mistake or accident resulting in the apparent "hero" being condemned (such as Kyouran Kazoku). The speculation proves wrong most of the time, unfortunately.

Blah, read through my post again. There is deliberate manipulation of the prophecy in moribito, which, according to your first post at least, isn't what you want since you want the "last remaining hope" to be threatened by "us" due to some error on our part, not a deliberate "botching." Well, in any case, its far and away one of the best shows ever so do watch it!

Cynor

2010-05-16 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity
(Post 3051181)

Blah, read through my post again. There is deliberate manipulation of the prophecy in moribito, which, according to your first post at least, isn't what you want since you want the "last remaining hope" to be threatened by "us" due to some error on our part, not a deliberate "botching." Well, in any case, its far and away one of the best shows ever so do watch it!

Its been awhile since I've seen it, but I could have sworn that the reason there was confusion or whatever is because pieces were missing. Now how they were missing I can't remember, maybe destroyed on purpose awhile back, but I don't think the present day people did it for their own gain.