Live Chat: World Cup

In this week’s Comment, Hendrik Hertzberg writes about soccer and America. Today, Hertzberg, Jeffrey Toobin, and Kilian Schalk discussed the World Cup in a live chat. A transcript of their discussion follows.

QUESTION FROM READER5: Has this World Cup finally settled the issue of whether soccer is “popular” in the United States, or will we hear about this all over again in 2014?

HENDRIK HERTZBERG: Hi, everybody. Yeah, we’ll hear it all over again in 2014. Especially if President Palin is in one of her anti-European moods.

But seriously, folks, it’ll be a very long time before professional soccer has the kind of oomph that baseball, basketball, and football have. And that’s nothing to worry about. If you like to watch soccer, there’ll be no shortage of opportunities. Especially if you have cable.

QUESTION FROM ARTUR: What do Americans find odd about football? Is it scarcity of goals or the fact that feet are only used ?

HENDRIK HERTZBERG: Both of those, plus the lack of constant time outs, the way the clock keeps running even when you’d think a time out would be logical… But “Americans” are a big group. In absolute numbers, there are a lot more soccer obsessives who are Americans than who are, say, Uruguayans. They just don’t dominate the national mentality the way they do in some other countries.

QUESTION FROM MATTHEW: Hendrik, in Britain, where I was born and have lived all my life, football is considered a working class sport. The ties it has to the working class permeate every sphere of the sport. That’s not to say that it doesn’t have fans in the middle or upper classes. In America does “soccer” have the same affiliation to any class and what relation could that have to its lack of “oomph”?

HENDRIK HERTZBERG: In the United States soccer kind of represents the old John Lindsay “limousine liberal” coalition: yuppies who drink lattes plus a section of the “working class” that is also “of color,” i.e., Hispanics and certain categories of immigrants. Frank Foer writes that it’s the inversion of the pattern in the UK. Soccer therefore has some sort of “elitist” edge to it here. No doubt this does indeed contribute to the lack of oomph.

QUESTION FROM IHEARTFUTBOL: What are the chances of the World Cup coming to the US in 2018?

HENDRIK HERTZBERG: Not great, I imagine, because we had it just a couple of World Cups ago, didn’t we?

KILIAN SCHALK: I concur. Europe has the inside track for 2018. The US’s best chance is for 2022. Too much tradition in Europe, and the internal FIFA politics don’t play in the US’s favor.

QUESTION FROM BANUTA: Who cares if America likes the World Cup? Europe doesn’t care about the Super Bowl.

HENDRIK HERTZBERG: Actually, the Super Bowl is kind of a boutique attraction abroad. The World Cup is a lot bigger than that here.

QUESTION FROM LYNN: Doesn’t the soccer ref have too much power for American tastes? And does the one ref’s inability to see everything encourage faking and cheating?

KILIAN SCHALK: I don’t think so. Soccer referees have all the responsibility but don’t have the technology. It will be interesting if post-match video can start changing the culture of diving.

JEFFREY TOOBIN: It’s Toobin here, arriving late to correct my colleagues’ errors. For starters, very little chance of getting the Cup in 2018, because that’s going to England. But we are the likely winners for 2022.

QUESTION FROM BUZZ57: Who would you consider the top player in this year’s World Cup? Personally, I loved Diego Forlan from Uruguay; what a competitor!

HENDRIK HERTZBERG: I agree 100 per cent.

JEFFREY TOOBIN: Forlan won the Golden Ball (MVP), so many agree, as do I.

QUESTION FROM CHRIS: What is your reaction to those who say US would dominate soccer if our top stars from other sports (LeBron James, Chad Ochocinco, Kobe Bryant) played the beautiful game? I look at Spain and see a bunch of little guys all over the field and have a hard time buying this argument.

KILIAN SCHALK: I agree. If you look at Brazil’s volleyball team they have huge guys that dwarf their own soccer team. No one in Brazil is suggesting that they play.

JEFFREY TOOBIN: I think there is a good argument that our best athletes don’t play soccer. Why should they? Look at the options for college scholarships and pro contracts. Much better in basketball and football. Plus, that’s what’s on TV.

HENDRIK HERTZBERG: My reaction is: they’re probably right. Our best athletes, quite naturally, get siphoned off into the meet-girls sports, like football and bball, by the time they reach high school.

JEFFREY TOOBIN: Rick is revealing his own priorities. Our athletes don’t play to meet girls. They play to make money.

HENDRIK HERTZBERG: In high school, girls are of more immediate concern.

JEFFREY TOOBIN: Why only one ref in professional soccer? That’s a real mistake, given the size of the field. NBA has three on a tiny court.

QUESTION FROM GUEST: Americans just don’t belong in the world of soccer—ahem, football. They can’t even call it by the correct name, and the sport is entirely unlike any others that are popular in the country. Would you agree?

JEFFREY TOOBIN: Who is in charge of “belong”? We’ll belong when we play at that level.

HENDRIK HERTZBERG: Uh, no. Soccer is, in fact, like, or not entirely unlike, hockey (especially), lacrosse, and basketball, in that it involves zooming from one end to the other trying to put an object into a net.

Also, nothing has a “real” name. Football is soccer in American English, soccer is football in English English.

KILIAN SCHALK: Besides, South Africa called their World Cup Final stadium “Soccer City” Does South Africa not belong to the World of Soccer?

JEFFREY TOOBIN: On the subject of soccer’s growing (or not) popularity, one theory is that there are simply too many sports, and it’s hard to break through in the USA. When I covered the Cup in 2006, I asked the head of US Soccer, Sunil Gulati, about this, and he said, “What about NASCAR?” Which is a good point. NASCAR went from regional to national in a short period of time.

QUESTION FROM GW: What is the US/American fascination with sports that involve scoring so many points? Is this the cause of such insouciance with football (soccer for you guys).

HENDRIK HERTZBERG: Well, baseball is kind of a low scoring game too.

JEFFREY TOOBIN: From my conversations with soccer haters and soccer indifferents in the USA, the lack of scoring seems to be a big issue.

HENDRIK HERTZBERG: Big soccer advantage: there’s almost always a chance to turn things around in the final minutes. I went to a Brooklyn Cyclones baseball game yesterday and the Cyclones were ahead 9-3 in the seventh and people started heading for the Wonder Wheel.

JEFFREY TOOBIN: I hadn’t thought of that. Good point, Hertzberg. Which game was it? I think NED-URG semi. It was 3-1 and everyone thought it was over. And they scored one and then almost another in the last second. It was fantastic.

QUESTION FROM GUEST: What about the idea of a tie? Can Americans understand the dignity and elegance of a 0-0?

HENDRIK HERTZBERG: Sure. Remember Bush v. Gore?

KILIAN SCHALK: Depends. Some 0-0 ties are full of tension, great play and thrilling moments. Some…not so much.

JEFFREY TOOBIN: To his credit, Rick can bring Bush v. Gore into any conversation.

QUESTION FROM HARRY: We should just make every goal count for seven points. That would convince the haters!

HENDRIK HERTZBERG: Brilliant point re making American football one point per touchdown! Wish I’d thought of that!

QUESTION FROM GUEST: Seattle loves its Sounders. What is it about Seattle that makes it more soccer-friendly than other U.S. cities? Will other U.S. cities emulate Seattle?

HENDRIK HERTZBERG: The same thing that made Seattle the home of Starbucks. And look at Starbucks now: the McDonalds of yuppiedom.

JEFFREY TOOBIN: I am kind of baffled at the failure of MLS to do much business (outside Seattle). Perhaps the easy availability of the English Premier League on television makes our local game look bad by comparison (which, uh, it is.)

KILIAN SCHALK: Seattle has an urban stadium next to public transport. For getting to the game with your friends and not thinking about parking, it’s a godsend.

JEFFREY TOOBIN: Has anyone been to the new Red Bull stadium? I went by on the train. It looks great. But to Kilian’s point, I don’t know how to get there by public transport.

KILIAN SCHALK: PATH train. That Red Bull stadium is the best thing since sliced bread. Best stadium I’ve seen a game in since Daejeon in Korea in 2002.

QUESTION FROM SAMANTHA: I was once a high school girl, and I think soccer guys are the cutest. (Except possibly baseball.) Better proportioned than basketball or football players.

HENDRIK HERTZBERG: My wife and sister made the same point over the last few days. My late mother preferred the baseball look, though.

JEFFREY TOOBIN: My 17 year old son is a big soccer player. His 19 year old big sister (who is, of course, loathe to say anything nice to him) admits that soccer players are the hottest athletes. My wife agrees, and made her rooting selections based on the looks of the players. Argentina was first.

QUESTION FROM TROY: Could the US ever get a Premier League team that is based in New York?

HENDRIK HERTZBERG: Another great idea, though you’d probably have to get whatsisname, the Virgin Airlines guy, to pay for the transportation and hotels.

JEFFREY TOOBIN: I like that idea! Never heard it before. The NFL is thinking seriously of expanding to Europe, so why not?

KILIAN SCHALK: NFL Europe already died once. (Dan Garber, the current M.L.S. CEO, was with NFL Europe while it was still doing pretty well.) I think they’ll start one in Germany if they go there again.