I'd like an answer to that one, too. Some of this discussion has left me with the impression that this has now changed in Vista, in which case I will indeed want to wait as long as possible before going the Vista route. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122714\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have Vista and as Microsoft advertising suggests I did go Wow...

...Wow how could someone make something so difficult to use and take away so many features I was used to using.

OK not to stray to far from the issue of printing with WIN & CS3 but here are two issues that I can't find answers to:

1) What happened to (in WIN) Network Places in Bridge v2? Was ther in the previous versions in the Folders Tab but not now.

2) Why did CS3 change the behavior of Windows by changing the dialog when a external card, hardrive, etc. are mounted? Prior you got a list of possible actions and now it is only "Download using Bridge" or "No Action". I preferred using the Folder view to handle many tasks (especially since lots of times using Bridge is not the way I want to handle the task). Is there a way to reset this mess to the OS level method?

The behavious is determined by the application not the operating system. So, if I look at Microsoft Office on Win2K, XP, Vista it all exhibits the same behavious as to the default on first printer dialogue box and then sticky settings (e.g. printer setting changes) during the session.

I somehow doubt that the behaviour has changed for new applications (old application run the same on Vista as XP), but I am not a developer and there may be some missive from Microsoft instructing developers to follow a different policy - however, I suspect there would have been some noise about it if that was the case.

Adobe with PS CS3 has struck out in a different direction from all other windows applications - without giving any good reason for doing so.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122756\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This is EXACTLY what I'm saying. All other programs, written by other vendors, maintain the printer settings, if changed from the dafault, until otherwise changed again. If I'm doing pre-press on 40 images and sending them to my RIP for hard copy, I don't want to have to change my printer setting each time. I want to simply hit "Print" and go on. Adobe chose to be "more like a Mac" with CS3 (based on the blog). Personally, I don't care to be more like a Mac. For all the good things, there are plenty of poorly designed things on a Mac. Ever heard of "right click context menuing"?

And the issue of Image Sizing still stands -- it's all screwed up when trying to get different values for "percentage" and "inches".

As to the rest of the folks who are gonna bypass Photoshop CS3 because of this "issue" ok, fine...read what Dave wrote...you'll be sitting around and waiting till Photoshop CS4 then.

This is the perfect example of why I love/hate PS.

Some of us have to produce and arbitrary changes can wreck productivity. My expectation is for any product to fit my workflow, not the other way around, and for any upgrade to provide new possibilities I can incorporate as I get time without throwing me blindly into a situation that brings production to a halt.

I won't be sitting around waiting, but I won't be using CS3 any time soon, either.

Which DOESN'T apply to the new 3800 Win drivers since Epson "fixed" their drivers to report, at default, four margins of .13 inches...rather than the old 48/78/9800 drivers which report Top and Sides of .13 and a Bottom of .56.

So, ya see, it really is an Epson driver issue-something that Photoshop CS2 WAS able to overcome on XP, but which CS3 CAN NOT overcome on Vista...

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122683\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Jeff,

It is good to see that Adobe has now published a Tech Note on the issue. This will be very helpful to some of those who have not yet had to struggle through this issue, but without the Note would have once confronted with it. I presume you had something to do with that and it is a good contribution. That said, the Note will not be useful to others. For example, the instructions given do not cohere with Epson driver 5.51 for Windows. Perhaps an expanded version is needed to detail with the several current Epson drivers.

Of course this issue was also discussed to death in another thread on this website so there is no need to rehash it all here. I have only two short comments:

(1) What Adobe did was intentional therefore I agree with you, not a bug. That doesn't mean it is satisfactory for the many people who have Epson X800 (not 3800) printers and use Microsoft operating systems and prefer to keep another printer as their default and for whom all of this worked very well with CS2. That is why I have been encouraging the notion of a configurable print module that will assist the many thousands of people with these printers and either XP or Vista to retain automated, centered print workflows much better than now possible in CS3.

(2) Anyone who thinks they shouldn't up-grade to CS3 because of this change should re-think. It really is throwing out the baby with the bathwater, because there is so much else about CS3 and ACR 4 that is truly excellent; furthermore, as consumers we really don't have any control over whether or when Adobe and/or Epson will change anything in the Print Module - they may well have other priorities. Meanwhile for ease and convenience I continue printing from CS2 - but I do everything else in CS3. It's all seemless this way - win-win.

Click on 'Folders', look in 'Desktop' (top of the tree). Right click on 'Network Places', choose 'Copy to Favourites' - it really is that simple.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122975\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

And Adobe's answer was to make a short cut of My Network Places on my desktop. Sure that will work but why should I have to do this now when it wasn't needed before? Their other suggestion was Version Cue.

I don't use the Favorites Tab. Never have. I like using the Folder Tab since I move up and down sub folders as I work.

Aarrgg - this crap just makes me mad! No answer why the change from Adobe and all of the "work arounds" are not better than the way it used to work. Makes total sense to me

With regards to the "Default Printer" issue, what part of "default" don't you understand. When a printer is set as "default" in the system, application should respect that-right? I mean you set it to default, right? Perhaps for the way YOU use your printers, the Photoshop CS2 approach of ignoring defaults was convenient but it can be argued that it violated the concept of "default" as set by the OS. Personally, I would argue that CS3 FIXES the previous misbehavior of CS2.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122458\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jeff, I respectfully disagree. I have several printers attached to my PC and which one I use is highly dependent on the application I'm in. Its a nice productivity enhancement to have the application remember which one I used the last time. Most of my apps do.

Applications are not required to follow the system defaults for things like printers. Adobe chose to take that path. Everyone will get over it eventually but its niggles like these that stand out when most things seem to be working smoothly.

It is good to see that Adobe has now published a Tech Note on the issue. This will be very helpful to some of those who have not yet had to struggle through this issue, but without the Note would have once confronted with it. I presume you had something to do with that and it is a good contribution. That said, the Note will not be useful to others. For example, the instructions given do not cohere with Epson driver 5.51 for Windows. Perhaps an expanded version is needed to detail with the several current Epson drivers.

Of course this issue was also discussed to death in another thread on this website so there is no need to rehash it all here. I have only two short comments:

(1) What Adobe did was intentional therefore I agree with you, not a bug. That doesn't mean it is satisfactory for the many people who have Epson X800 (not 3800) printers and use Microsoft operating systems and prefer to keep another printer as their default and for whom all of this worked very well with CS2. That is why I have been encouraging the notion of a configurable print module that will assist the many thousands of people with these printers and either XP or Vista to retain automated, centered print workflows much better than now possible in CS3.

(2) Anyone who thinks they shouldn't up-grade to CS3 because of this change should re-think. It really is throwing out the baby with the bathwater, because there is so much else about CS3 and ACR 4 that is truly excellent; furthermore, as consumers we really don't have any control over whether or when Adobe and/or Epson will change anything in the Print Module - they may well have other priorities. Meanwhile for ease and convenience I continue printing from CS2 - but I do everything else in CS3. It's all seemless this way - win-win.

Secondly, if you prefer working with just the folder - click on the grey arrowhead next to 'Desktop' and choose 'Network Places' from the drop down list (it's the 3rd item down).[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123373\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Carol I realize you are not with Adobe. My mention of Adobe is that I have been talking with them. Yes, your solution is the answer. I just don't undertsand why they made this change of no including Network Places in the Folder tree as a root entry as it was in previous Bridge versions. Even though it is a tiny change in the big picture of things I will have to unlearn the old way I did it. Yes, I will "get over it" but this change from previous way it was program has me scratching my head.

Applications are not required to follow the system defaults for things like printers. Adobe chose to take that path. Everyone will get over it eventually but its niggles like these that stand out when most things seem to be working smoothly.

Although this has been mentioned in at least one of the other threads, there is also some controversy as to the meaning of "default".

Adobe and Schewe appears to have taken the following (and I daresay radical) meaning to heart:

"default" = "standard that you must have good technical reasons to not use"

Rather than the more conservative:

"default" = "setting that you default to in the absence of an application or user specified setting"

Just understand my position...I'm only reporting what was done by Adobe and why, to point out it wasn't an error or bug. I really have no dog in this hunt since I print from Mac. I only tested CS3 under Windows to see what other people were calling bugs. The fact that Mac & Win now have the same behavior is no skin off my nose ya know.

And I'll be the first to say that I think easy and accuracy of printing from either Mac or Win sucks...it sucks cause the OS gets in the way, ColorSync gets in the way, print drivers suck and the way that Photoshop has to deal with printing sucks.

But unlike some people, I'm more interested in finding out why and doing something about it rather than just taking a Blame Adobe™ approach...I've had several conversations with Epson (where I do have some pull) and one wonders why the newest Epson driver-for the 3800-is actually defaulting to 4 equal margins? Could it be that others as well as myself complained that since the friggin' driver CAN print borderless the old "have more margin for the gripper" is pretty silly?

Lightroom is paving the way allowing people to save presets for printer, page setup, profile, etc allowing a more productive printing environment. Don't be at all surprised to see Photoshop going down that road as well.

All the Blame Adobe™ approach does is to place your anger and frustion at the wrong place and let's the other guys off the hook. Complain to MSFT, Apple and Epson (or other printer makers) and say this sucks....fix it.

I'm actually kinda glad that now printing from Win and Mac both suck about equally...maybe there's more incentive now to fix stuff. There's only so much Adobe can do ya know?

But unlike some people, I'm more interested in finding out why and doing something about it rather than just taking a Blame Adobe™ approach...I've had several conversations with Epson (where I do have some pull) and one wonders why the newest Epson driver-for the 3800-is actually defaulting to 4 equal margins? Could it be that others as well as myself complained that since the friggin' driver CAN print borderless the old "have more margin for the gripper" is pretty silly?

Indeed, this is silly.

I've never had reason to stop shaking my head at the general quality of printer drivers.

Life was easier with Postscript laser printers.

Quote

Lightroom is paving the way allowing people to save presets for printer, page setup, profile, etc allowing a more productive printing environment. Don't be at all surprised to see Photoshop going down that road as well.

Yes, that does look promising!

Although it looks like we'll have to wait until 2009 and CS4, right?

Quote

All the Blame Adobe™ approach does is to place your anger and frustion at the wrong place and let's the other guys off the hook. Complain to MSFT, Apple and Epson (or other printer makers) and say this sucks....fix it.

Complaining to Microsoft, Apple and Epson won't fix Adobe's NewSpeak interpretation of "default", and won't make life easier for those of us with two printers.

Quote

I'm actually kinda glad that now printing from Win and Mac both suck about equally...maybe there's more incentive now to fix stuff. There's only so much Adobe can do ya know?

I'd like to put it in another way:

I'm glad that Adobe apparently has taken the time to recode -- or at least refactor some -- what appears to be large parts of the Photoshop code base, while allowing almost everything to work as expected for even a Photoshop 5 user.

If Microsoft, Apple or Epson had taken similar care of their customers, well, wouldn't that be something?

I'm actually kinda glad that now printing from Win and Mac both suck about equally...maybe there's more incentive now to fix stuff. There's only so much Adobe can do ya know?[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123610\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Perhaps it is just me, but in CS2 on Windows I had no problem with printing from Photoshop. Now that we have to dumb down to to the Apple experience it now 'sucks' (to use your expression) in CS3 on Windows. If that is what Adobe (Trademark) want to call progress then I am really looking forward to CS4 with a great deal of excitement. Apple is good at some things, not all things, and I do get the feeling that Adobe made the wrong choice even if it was made for all the right reasons.

NB This is not to knock the fact that CS3 does have a lot of good features , and its fair share of additional bugs as well

Now that we have to dumb down to to the Apple experience it now 'sucks' (to use your expression) in CS3 on Windows.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123620\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yep. . .but it wasn't an attempt to dumb down but bring platform agnostic usability. To be honest, Adobe got tired of engineering around the flaws and limitations of ALL OS's and their print drivers...and Vista is a pretty major pain to both application developers as well as hardware drivers. It is hoped it will get "better" when the print drivers get better-which will be possible with the Vista print pipeline as well as Leopard.

I also think that the next competitive battleground will be the usability of print drivers. HP's are pretty darn good on their recent printers. Canon makes some good printers but the drivers and the usability sucks. We've seen a lot of changes that are more orientated towards print heads and ink but not a lot yet in the drivers. That's where a lot of usability can be improved...and it's useful if the printer makers hear about how bad their stuff is for photographers. Which is why the whole Print with Preview was first developed...Chris Cox got pissed off making prints and pretty much wrote it. But between code evolution and new platform requirements, maintaining it wasn't feasible.

So, piss & moan to Adobe if it makes you feel better, but if you want a better printing environment, take the message to Apple, MSFT & the printer makers-that's who has to hear your frustrations...so they can do something about it.

Yep. . .but it wasn't an attempt to dumb down but bring platform agnostic usability. To be honest, Adobe got tired of engineering around the flaws and limitations of ALL OS's and their print drivers...and Vista is a pretty major pain to both application developers as well as hardware drivers. .................

I also think that the next competitive battleground will be the usability of print drivers. ..................

So, piss & moan to Adobe if it makes you feel better, but if you want a better printing environment, take the message to Apple, MSFT & the printer makers-that's who has to hear your frustrations...so they can do something about it.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123652\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jeff, I think we've discussed this to death, but I'll chime in once more - you are making good points, especially about the involvement of other players - I have also suggested that there needs to be broad industry co-operation in resolving the print centering problem (and a re-think at Adobe about the default printer issue), but I would strongly encourage Adobe to be part of the effort on the centering issue. They have a material interest in it, as do their clients.

With regards to the "Default Printer" issue, what part of "default" don't you understand. When a printer is set as "default" in the system, application should respect that-right? I mean you set it to default, right? Perhaps for the way YOU use your printers, the Photoshop CS2 approach of ignoring defaults was convenient but it can be argued that it violated the concept of "default" as set by the OS. Personally, I would argue that CS3 FIXES the previous misbehavior of CS2.

That's what Dave wrote...trying to explain that. And it ain't a bug when the engineering is done that way on purpose.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122458\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think I have just encountered a new variation on the "default printer" feature in CS3 (on Windows XP).

I seldom print directly from CS3, preferring to use ImagePrint or QTR or Qimage. But today I wanted to make a couple of quick prints from CS3, in color. My "default" printer is a monochrome HP Laserjet 1200 that does just about everything that hasn't gone through Photoshop. For color I have an Epson 2200.

So, since I wanted color for all six prints, I selected the Epson printer from the print dialog, and clicked "page setup". Up popped the "Epson 2200 Properties" dialog which let me change from the default portrait setting to landscape for the first print. Then I printed, and all was fine.

I then went to print the second print. Now, contrary to what I had been led to expect from the wailing and moaning and gnashing of teeth in this thread, the indicated printer was still the Epson, and not the "default" HP. But the preview showed that it had reverted to portrait.

No problemo. I just clicked on "Page Setup" again, and up popped the "HP Laserjet 1200 Properties" dialog, even though the currently selected printer was still the Epson!

Now if this behavior is what Mac users are used to, I surely don't want to switch to a Mac.

I did discover a workaround: I had to select a different printer (anything but the already-selected Epson), and then select the Epson again before I could ever get the Epson Properties dialog to come up.

I guess my question is this: Is this a "bug", an "undocumented feature" or an example of CS3 "fixing" what was broken in CS2?

In CS2, whenever the selected printer was "X" and I asked for "Page Setup", I always got the page setup dialog for printer "X", not for printer "Y", regardless of which was the "default".

I'm still having trouble understanding the Macintosh definition of "default", I guess.

One thing that is important to remember is that both are MDI (multiple document interface) applications - changes made to one document in the application do not affect other documents including print settings.

Vista: CS3 respects the system (ie OS) default printer. If another additional document is opened, that document when printed, will also use the system default printer. Printer settings are *not* "inherited between documents within the same application. IE7 has *identical* behavior.

XP: Same behavior

hth - John

ps: Firefox (2.0.0.6) - same behavior

Apparently developers from all three shops are drinking from the same jug of Koolaid . . .

One thing that is important to remember is that both are MDI (multiple document interface) applications - changes made to one document in the application do not affect other documents including print settings.

Vista: CS3 respects the system (ie OS) default printer. If another additional document is opened, that document when printed, will also use the system default printer. Printer settings are *not* "inherited between documents within the same application. IE7 has *identical* behavior.

XP: Same behavior

hth - John

ps: Firefox (2.0.0.6) - same behavior

Apparently developers from all three shops are drinking from the same jug of Koolaid . . .[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=143297\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

But that's not the behavior I got from CS3 on XP. When another additional document is opened, if a different printer was selected for the first document, then that same printer is selected for the second document. However, the "page setup" dialog is for the "default" printer and not for the selected printer.

I just tried printing two documents from each of Opera 9.23 and Firefox 2.0.0.7, and the "page setup" dialog is always for whatever printer is currently selected (and yes, both follow the much maligned, ugly, old-fashioned but often useful Windows tradition of keeping the selected printer for subsequent documents rather than reverting to the default after each one.)

My point is: CS3 most emphatically does not return to the default printer after each document is printed (or, if it does, it is claiming not to, which is hardly a useful feature; Maybe when it says the selected printer is my Epson, it really means my default HP???).