Sylvanas is completely overrated. She's died three times, had her ass handed to her an additional three times, and relies on nothing short of divine blizzard intervention to win anything. "Oh you killed the val'kyr attacking andorhol? Just kidding! I have more, and we win!" And I
Still have no idea why the worgen had to abandon gilneas after personally kicking sylvanas around and sending her running with her tail between her legs.

“Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow

While I usually hate to side with the Sylvanas fanboy group, her atrocities are little compared to what Garrosh wants to do.

Actually, In the middle of typing this I have come to think that both are committing atrocities against nature, and that both should be killed, Although while Sylvanas does this to ensure the sustainability of her people, Garrosh commits these atrocities because he wants world domination, and he has shown that he is willing to throw his allies aside to get to this. So it seems to me that the means justify the act, in the case of Sylvanas and the Forsaken.

So, perhaps they both need to be killed/stopped eventually, however Garrosh is a much bigger priority for both the Alliance and Horde, now that he has taken to imprisoning his allies, in the case of the trolls.

"Ok - you? Out. See that ocean? I want you on the other side of that ocean. Now."

Are you talking about where we exorcise Kalecgos? Or the part where we kill M'uru? Neither one of those are redemption stories.

the blood elf redemption story where the blood elves were forgiven of their crimes, and velen used m'uru's essence to reignite the sunwell for them in order to heal their hearts and their society. afterwards the blood knights decided to become a proper paladin order instead of "paladins by force".

Sylvanas is completely overrated. She's died three times, had her ass handed to her an additional three times, and relies on nothing short of divine blizzard intervention to win anything. "Oh you killed the val'kyr attacking andorhol? Just kidding! I have more, and we win!" And I
Still have no idea why the worgen had to abandon gilneas after personally kicking sylvanas around and sending her running with her tail between her legs.

Yeah she is overrated, but she is still one of the most established major lore figures, with an actual consistent development.
Failing sometimes makes her actually a more believable character than others, who never fail, it clearly shows limitations others utterly lack. The Worgen had to flee, because Sylvanas drenched Gilneas city in blight. They retook it later on,advancing into Silverpine, only to be pushed back into Gilneas again. Though it is somewhat amusing, that blizzard basically created a Kerrigan 2.0 with her.

Originally Posted by Kralljin

Sylvanas planned to unleashed the plague upon Gilneas City, so they had no choice as to abandon Gilneas City if they wanted to survive.

She did not only plan it , she did.

Last edited by Combatbulter; 2013-01-03 at 10:43 PM.

He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

He wasn't mentioned in WoW ever. I'm talking about in War3 when he was rewarded for sending the Blood Elves to their deaths and then imprisoning them for the "traitorous actions" they performed to survive.

What reward? By who?

Originally Posted by Vaelyn

Look, I get the whole "one man" doesn't reflect an entire faction, but isn't that what you're all doing with Sylvanas and Garrosh? Step off the pedestal.

Where are you getting me generalising from?
What am I saying about Sylvanas that is generalising?
What am I saying about Garrosh and the Orcs that is generalising?

Very biased poll. Can there be a "Sylvanas does what she must for her people"?

Sylvanas and vol'jin are going to be the last interesting horde leaders after garrosh falls. Face it, she is the most talked about leader for one reason or another. It would be a travesty to kill off such a loved and hated figure in the wow universe. Personally, I get tried of seeing great characters being killed in wow for the sake of a raid encounter or a cheap means of story progressions.

She is my favorite horde leader because she is edgy. If you read her short story to conclusion, you will understand that what she does is for her people. It's a very interesting ethical situation.

There is also no real lore situated yet for a suitable replacement. There is not a single figure, not one, in the entire wow universe who commands the same amount of love and adoration from the forsaken. The forsaken, almost in it's entirety, is loyal to sylvanas. Who could lead such a force in the wake of sylvanas' death? People put up candidates effortlessly; yet, i remain unconvinced any of the typical offerings would be a suitable replacement.

Nathanos? Maybe, but doubtful since the only major thing we have seen him do at all is sit in the plauge lands and become a hunter trainer in a later expansion.
Calia? Assumed to be an npc in-game under an alias. She is neither undead nor active enough to replace a leader beloved by her people.
The one I hate the most, Lilian Voss? She hates what she has become. There is no rich lore surrounding her yet. She is hardly known by the forsaken, if at all.

Those are really the best options, and none of them seem compelling enough yet to subdue the rage of the forsaken if the banshee queen were ever to fall.

She is not going any where. Garrosh on the other hand... His story and they way he felt about demonic corruption, his father, and his legacy in Nagrand and how he evolved into what he is now is kinda underwhelming. It's the overplayed uncorrupted son falling into the same dastardly dealings as his father despite lamenting the actions of his paternal lineage. Garrosh can go, he leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Yeah she is overrated, but she is still one of the most established major lore figures, with an actual consistent development.
Failing sometimes makes her actually a more believable character than others, who never fail, it clearly shows limitations others utterly lack. The Worgen had to flee, because Sylvanas drenched Gilneas city in blight.

Being brought back from the dead an additional two times does not make her more "believable." A "believable" character would learn and be humbled by being beaten... If this were true, Sylvanas would be the most humble character in all of Warcraft... But simply put, she is not. She exudes arrogance and confidence when she has no context to do so.

The alliance might not be saints, but they sure as hell are a lot less morally reprehensible than the horde as of late. Sylvanas is one of the reasons.

“Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow

I don't see why "instead of", rather than "along with". However, I'd like some closure on the whole deal with her sisters that hasn't even been addressed (especially since Alleria is still missing) before we go killing her off.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
Also, it's should HAVE. NOT "should of". "Should of" doesn't even make sense. If you think you should own a cat, do you say "I should of a cat" or "I should have a cat"? Do you HAVE cats, or do you OF cats?

I personally doubt we will see it stop there.
Currently Sylvanas's frame of mind is that as she is going to hell she needs to destroy her enemies to guarantee herself a threat free Azeroth.
We also have this quote by a Deathguard "We have made our mark here on Azeroth, and that mark will grow. Our dominion will soon blanket the world!", so there is obviously a opinion amongst the Forsaken that they want to rule Azeroth. Take from it what you will as it's one quote from one person, but it deserves taking into account that Forsaken are a very singularly opinionated people who religiously follow Sylvanas so I wouldn't simply write it off as one opinion.

---------- Post added 2013-01-03 at 10:57 PM ----------

Originally Posted by MathAddict

Can there be a "Sylvanas does what she must for her people"?

Except she doesn't. Her short story pretty much clarified that she doesn't give a hoot about her people and that they're just a tool to stop her from dying.

Being brought back from the dead an additional two times does not make her more "believable." A "believable" character would learn and be humbled by being beaten... If this were true, Sylvanas would be the most humble character in all of Warcraft... But simply put, she is not. She exudes arrogance and confidence when she has no context to do so.

The alliance might not be saints, but they sure as hell are a lot less morally reprehensible than the horde as of late. Sylvanas is one of the reasons.

What is your point? She always developed along those lines consistently over the years. You saw her slow fall from grace. She embraced death the second time, since she thought she would go to heaven like the first time, but was thrown into hell instead. What she did "learn" after being beaten, is to be more ruthless than before in order to avoid hell. The Banshee Queen was designed to be manipulative scheming and ruthless. It remains to be seen if Blizzard is willing to let her continue on this path of bloodshed and slaughter.

He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

Except she doesn't. Her short story pretty much clarified that she doesn't give a hoot about her people and that they're just a tool to stop her from dying.

The start of the story sure, but not at it's conclusion. The story leads her to a new purpose after killing the lich king. That's where she comes to realize that the forsaken are not just an "arrow in her quiver" but her shield.

The start of the story sure, but not at it's conclusion. The story leads her to a new purpose after killing the lich king. That's where she comes to realize that the forsaken are not just an "arrow in her quiver" but her shield.

A shield to protect her from the infinite, you could say she cares about them in a very twisted form. Though I doubt she really gives a damn about them.

He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

A shield to protect her from the infinite, you could say she cares about them in a very twisted form. Though I doubt she really gives a damn about them.

I would agree with that sentiment. There is no doubt though, the majority of the desicions she makes are in the interest of her people. From wc3 to the present it is obvious. Even the stuff she says as an npc make you believe she wants the best for the forsaken race if it only means she has a stronger tool to utilize.