(21-03-2014 03:09 PM)Sceadwian Wrote: That's a human perception, god is not human god is god, what you're implying is what the bible says, god created us in his image.

Your assertion presumes the existence of such a being. You have not demonstrated such a being to actually exist. You must start there.

Quote:I'm not asserting any such garbage, so you're applying human constructs to the thinking of an all powerful all knowing being because that's all you can do because you are human, the mind of god whatever that might be will have no such constructs inherent, that's why I like this thought exercise because what atheists need to understand is that the concept of god alone outside of specific religions has no discrete meaning only context to other beliefs and that perhaps the truth if there is a god that truth is forever beyond the ability of our minds to encompass.

Your horrific grammar makes your attempt at an explanation unintelligible. And again, our rejection of unsupported claims such as you are attempting is based on your failure to substantiate them with evidence.

Quote:That's the only 'rational' concept of god I've ever been able to come up with.

It's not rational.

Quote:Most arguments I see against this concept of god really show you a LOT about the person that answers own opinion about god because it's factually neutral, we all respond based on our own experiences with religion and god in general and I find it FASCINATING all the different answers and counter arugements I get.

Unintelligible again. And no, your claim of a deity with such powers is NOT "factually neutral", whatever that is supposed to mean, and no, the inferences you are making about atheists are not accurate and only reflect your own faulty assumptions.

Quote:The human mind has such an ego and this weird desire to fight things which it can never comprehend, and that's true in the real solid world not just the metaphysical one, I never understood because I'm not a common mind, I just don't get it.

You need to learn that just because you pull some bullshit assertion out of your ass doesn't make it true.

(21-03-2014 03:09 PM)Sceadwian Wrote: That's a human perception, god is not human god is god, what you're implying is what the bible says, god created us in his image.

I'm not asserting any such garbage, so you're applying human constructs to the thinking of an all powerful all knowing being because that's all you can do because you are human, the mind of god whatever that might be will have no such constructs inherent, that's why I like this thought exercise because what atheists need to understand is that the concept of god alone outside of specific religions has no discrete meaning only context to other beliefs and that perhaps the truth if there is a god that truth is forever beyond the ability of our minds to encompass.

That's the only 'rational' concept of god I've ever been able to come up with.

Most arguments I see against this concept of god really show you a LOT about the person that answers own opinion about god because it's factually neutral, we all respond based on our own experiences with religion and god in general and I find it FASCINATING all the different answers and counter arugements I get.

The human mind has such an ego and this weird desire to fight things which it can never comprehend, and that's true in the real solid world not just the metaphysical one, I never understood because I'm not a common mind, I just don't get it.

Actually, the human mind has such an ego that many humans actually think that we're so important in the scheme of the universe that NOTHING could have existed before us, so some invisible sky daddy obviously created us at the same time as everything else. He created our planet that is so insignificant that, when compared to the rest of the universe, it wouldn't even represent a single grain of sand from all the sand you could collect on our planet, all just because he loves us so much!

Seriously, I think you're the one that needs to get over your self-importance. If the sun exploded tomorrow and blew our planet to bits, do you know what that would mean for the rest of the universe?: jack...fucking...shit. The idea that the universe begins and ends with us is incredibly arrogant.

Also, your defense that people are being close-minded for not giving credibility to the existence of a god, and that god being the creator of the universe, because it doesn't explore all possibilities is quite ridiculous. This is like saying that the F.B.I. is being close-minded because they will not take into consideration my theory that a group of murders were committed by a shape-shifter, like the ones you see in X-Men comics and cartoons. That is, in essence, what you are claiming. You are trying to use magic as an explanation for something, and then labeling people who don't think that magic is a reasonable explanation as close-minded.

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain

God-Ya, dude it just fucking came to me man! Puff, puff, pass motherfucker!

Luci-(cough cough) Oh, man sorry this is some good shit!

God-Hell ya it is! Oh and dude creating the universe isn't even the best part! (cough cough) I am going to make it so when the universe is only 6000 years old it's going to look like it's 14 billion years old! (cough)

God-Ya, dude it just fucking came to me man! Puff, puff, pass motherfucker!

Luci-(cough cough) Oh, man sorry this is some good shit!

God-Hell ya it is! Oh and dude creating the universe isn't even the best part! (cough cough) I am going to make it so when the universe is only 6000 years old it's going to look like it's 14 billion years old! (cough)

God-Ya, dude it just fucking came to me man! Puff, puff, pass motherfucker!

Luci-(cough cough) Oh, man sorry this is some good shit!

God-Hell ya it is! Oh and dude creating the universe isn't even the best part! (cough cough) I am going to make it so when the universe is only 6000 years old it's going to look like it's 14 billion years old! (cough)

Luci-Why the fuck would you do that?

God-To totally fuck with all the humans dude!(cough)

Luci-Dude that's fucking great man!

God-I know right!

God and Luci high five!

This is how it went down for sure

Swing with me a while, we can listen to the birds call, we can keep each other warm.
Swing with me forever, we can count up every flower, we can weather every storm.

I think you missed the point, the construct requires no evidence. What you think of as logic is not the same as what other people do, we use different logic there is no absolute logic.

You can refute that as much as you'd like, and in general I would agree with you, but this it he kernel of understanding that rabid theists hold on to and it's not possible to argue with it.

It's so important to understand this when dealing with people of differing opinions beliefs/whatever..

That's why I laugh at most anti-theists efforts... They can NEVER work to convert theists into atheists.

I'm sure the young are laughing at both trenches.

(21-03-2014 03:16 PM)meremortal Wrote:

(21-03-2014 03:00 PM)Sceadwian Wrote: Okay what do you not understand? I though I was clear enough in the original post. If god has the power do do ANYTHING and knows EVERYTHING then there is no situation that god can not cause to be, even an intelligently created universe that looks like it's not..

Keep in mind as I've stated this a few times, that's not a belief, it's a logical thought construct, and it's the one that subconsciously drives most theists. The point is to try to give some perspective to those that don't believe to the logic behind some of the people that do believe.

Even if you don't understand WHY someone believes something doesn't mean you should do your best to understand how their thought process works otherwise there's no possibility of ever reasoning with them. I do think it's still possible to reason with some of them, mostly the younger one's of course.

I disagree, and say that it is not logic, but is nothing but belief - faith. Not only is there no evidence to support the position, but they actually have to create logical fallacies to explain away evidence that contradicts their beliefs. It may be a "thought construct", but it is not a logical one.

Don't ever accept this as 'my' defense... I think you along the lines with so many others fail to understand that you can't just say something and change the mind of another regardless of the logic you use. The systems differ to the degree you're wasting your time.

(21-03-2014 11:34 PM)WindyCityJazz Wrote:

(21-03-2014 03:09 PM)Sceadwian Wrote: That's a human perception, god is not human god is god, what you're implying is what the bible says, god created us in his image.

I'm not asserting any such garbage, so you're applying human constructs to the thinking of an all powerful all knowing being because that's all you can do because you are human, the mind of god whatever that might be will have no such constructs inherent, that's why I like this thought exercise because what atheists need to understand is that the concept of god alone outside of specific religions has no discrete meaning only context to other beliefs and that perhaps the truth if there is a god that truth is forever beyond the ability of our minds to encompass.

That's the only 'rational' concept of god I've ever been able to come up with.

Most arguments I see against this concept of god really show you a LOT about the person that answers own opinion about god because it's factually neutral, we all respond based on our own experiences with religion and god in general and I find it FASCINATING all the different answers and counter arugements I get.

The human mind has such an ego and this weird desire to fight things which it can never comprehend, and that's true in the real solid world not just the metaphysical one, I never understood because I'm not a common mind, I just don't get it.

Actually, the human mind has such an ego that many humans actually think that we're so important in the scheme of the universe that NOTHING could have existed before us, so some invisible sky daddy obviously created us at the same time as everything else. He created our planet that is so insignificant that, when compared to the rest of the universe, it wouldn't even represent a single grain of sand from all the sand you could collect on our planet, all just because he loves us so much!

Seriously, I think you're the one that needs to get over your self-importance. If the sun exploded tomorrow and blew our planet to bits, do you know what that would mean for the rest of the universe?: jack...fucking...shit. The idea that the universe begins and ends with us is incredibly arrogant.

Also, your defense that people are being close-minded for not giving credibility to the existence of a god, and that god being the creator of the universe, because it doesn't explore all possibilities is quite ridiculous. This is like saying that the F.B.I. is being close-minded because they will not take into consideration my theory that a group of murders were committed by a shape-shifter, like the ones you see in X-Men comics and cartoons. That is, in essence, what you are claiming. You are trying to use magic as an explanation for something, and then labeling people who don't think that magic is a reasonable explanation as close-minded.

(22-03-2014 02:16 PM)Sceadwian Wrote: I think you missed the point, the construct requires no evidence. What you think of as logic is not the same as what other people do, we use different logic there is no absolute logic.

Nope sorry, evidence is required not logic.

(22-03-2014 02:16 PM)Sceadwian Wrote: You can refute that as much as you'd like, and in general I would agree with you, but this it he kernel of understanding that rabid theists hold on to and it's not possible to argue with it.

Rabid theists are usually too deep to be converted in a single try

(22-03-2014 02:16 PM)Sceadwian Wrote: It's so important to understand this when dealing with people of differing opinions beliefs/whatever..

That's why I laugh at most anti-theists efforts... They can NEVER work to convert theists into atheists.

I'm sure the young are laughing at both trenches.

Ah but most efforts are not against the ones yelling but the listeners in the wings.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote: America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense

(22-03-2014 02:18 PM)Sceadwian Wrote: Don't ever accept this as 'my' defense... I think you along the lines with so many others fail to understand that you can't just say something and change the mind of another regardless of the logic you use. The systems differ to the degree you're wasting your time.

(21-03-2014 11:34 PM)WindyCityJazz Wrote: Actually, the human mind has such an ego that many humans actually think that we're so important in the scheme of the universe that NOTHING could have existed before us, so some invisible sky daddy obviously created us at the same time as everything else. He created our planet that is so insignificant that, when compared to the rest of the universe, it wouldn't even represent a single grain of sand from all the sand you could collect on our planet, all just because he loves us so much!

Seriously, I think you're the one that needs to get over your self-importance. If the sun exploded tomorrow and blew our planet to bits, do you know what that would mean for the rest of the universe?: jack...fucking...shit. The idea that the universe begins and ends with us is incredibly arrogant.

Also, your defense that people are being close-minded for not giving credibility to the existence of a god, and that god being the creator of the universe, because it doesn't explore all possibilities is quite ridiculous. This is like saying that the F.B.I. is being close-minded because they will not take into consideration my theory that a group of murders were committed by a shape-shifter, like the ones you see in X-Men comics and cartoons. That is, in essence, what you are claiming. You are trying to use magic as an explanation for something, and then labeling people who don't think that magic is a reasonable explanation as close-minded.

I don't know where you got the idea that I'm trying to convert theists. I couldn't care less about their beliefs. They can believe whatever the hell they want. What I do have a problem with is when they try to force their beliefs on everybody else, and that's when I will stand up and call them out on their bullshit.

They want to believe in some invisible sky daddy? Fine.
They want to believe in concepts like heaven and hell? Fine.
They want to believe that people who don't follow their faith are doomed? Fine.
They want to force their religious beliefs to be taught in public schools because they claim that their religious beliefs hold the same credibility as science? That's when I say "Hold that damn train right there! You are NOT going to go forcing your beliefs on others, and I will fight that to the fullest extent!"

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain