Um m1dget it is MUCH easier to trouble shoot a problem in Windows than Mac. If you get a problem in Mac you are screwed as it does not tell you what is wrong. You get a problem in Windows and you get an error code.

Also who cares if the BIOS is running extremely old tech. You don't need a core i7 to run a bios. Although it would be great if the BIOS got an updated GUI.

Apple is crap when you want to run your own hardware. You can't simply put any PCI-e or PCI device into your $3000+ Mac Pro and expect it to work. Mean while any windows computer would have no problems.

With Apple it is a closed system. You do what Apple wants or Apple doesn't allow you to run on Mac. I can tell you developers hate working for the iPhone/iPod touch/iPad. Apple handles that the worst way possible. Lets say you put a million dollars into making a game for the iPhone. You don't know if Apple will accept it or not. Then even if Apple accepts it they may remove it later. Also you must use Apple approved developing tools to even be considered into the app store.

And don't get me started on how crappy iTunes is.

Also Apple is not cheap at all. When Apple makes an affordable computer for the average joe than people wont call them expensive. $1000 is too expensive for your lowest end computer. They need something less than $500 but then they would sell as many $1000 entry level Macs.

Don't get me wrong MS makes a lot of mistakes as well.

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Um m1dget it is MUCH easier to trouble shoot a problem in Windows than Mac. If you get a problem in Mac you are screwed as it does not tell you what is wrong. You get a problem in Windows and you get an error code.

Also who cares if the BIOS is running extremely old tech. You don't need a core i7 to run a bios. Although it would be great if the BIOS got an updated GUI.

Apple is crap when you want to run your own hardware. You can't simply put any PCI-e or PCI device into your $3000+ Mac Pro and expect it to work. Mean while any windows computer would have no problems.

With Apple it is a closed system. You do what Apple wants or Apple doesn't allow you to run on Mac. I can tell you developers hate working for the iPhone/iPod touch/iPad. Apple handles that the worst way possible. Lets say you put a million dollars into making a game for the iPhone. You don't know if Apple will accept it or not. Then even if Apple accepts it they may remove it later. Also you must use Apple approved developing tools to even be considered into the app store.

And don't get me started on how crappy iTunes is.

Also Apple is not cheap at all. When Apple makes an affordable computer for the average joe than people wont call them expensive. $1000 is too expensive for your lowest end computer. They need something less than $500 but then they would sell as many $1000 entry level Macs.

Don't get me wrong MS makes a lot of mistakes as well.

There's error codes in OS X

No one should argue that macs are cheap, they aren't. You do pay an apple tax for their products. However, it is not really in there interest to have a entry level computer. As an economics student we learn that simply having the lowest price does not mean max profits and sometimes the opposite is true. We looked at an example with abercrombie and fitch where they were losing money and in order to move outta the red they upped all there prices. Doesn't matter whether you like their preppy clothes or not, but the business model works for some companies, Apple is one of those companies. They are seen as the elite brand by the general public regardless of the tech actually inside their laptops (which is pretty mid range). They do a good job marketing, and a real good job making a product look good. That's why their successful

iTunes may not be everyone's cup of tea, it definitely has some major flaws, but it gets the job done. It's mostly due to visual preference which audio manager one uses.

I have no doubt developers may not like the business model that apple uses for the app store, but they do need to limit stuff, although they could do it in a much better way. The app store is already so bloated with crapware and if all limits were removed it would be an even bigger mess

Sorry for the rant, point I'm trying to make is that apple isn't for everyone, but their OS is pretty much on par with windows 7. I like OS X better since it runs a bit quicker, but again, that's simply my personal preference.

Well first you are giving points/credit/whatever you want to call it to a company on the fact that they are giving away money to charities.
It helps with the look of the company but never their actual product. I meant that, like most americans, you are attracted by the image/concept and not the goods. I don't mean that in a way to insult you, I just find funny that it actually works.

And for the regedit examlpe... yes you can call that via the command line, but is the command line actually good at something on windows? Not really.

__________________
"NIX is a classic example of security through obscurity because there is no real monetary reward for crackers and hackers to break Linix" -AkG

And if I can push a bit more, they are one of the reason we are about 5-10 years behind in 'computers'. Heck we still have a (*@#&$ 8 BIT CHIP IN OUR COMPUTER IN 2010 (the bios). WTF! And x86-64 makers still have to support 32 and 16 bits instruction, which should have died in the 90s and the mid 80s respectively. low level programmers still have to cope with a zillion of opcodes and it's a real bitch to work with considering we have awesome complex architecture like sparc64 with simple instructions.

Windows has had native EFI support since 2006. We are still using the BIOS because of motherboard manufacturers, not because of Microsoft. 16-bit software is also effectively dead. 64-bit versions of Windows do not support it, and there is no active support in 32-bit versions aside from whatever compatibility already exists. In any case, there are still plenty of POS systems that rely on 16-bit software, and the hundreds of businesses using them aren't just going to upgrade to state of the art hardware out of the blue if there's no financial incentive for them to do so. If it isn't broken, why fix it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by m1dget

e) I understood half of what you said for GUI, but what is the goal of a GUI? Simplicity.

Simplicity, but not at the expense of functionality. OSX definitely does not win in that respect.

Um m1dget it is MUCH easier to trouble shoot a problem in Windows than Mac. If you get a problem in Mac you are screwed as it does not tell you what is wrong. You get a problem in Windows and you get an error code.

Also who cares if the BIOS is running extremely old tech. You don't need a core i7 to run a bios. Although it would be great if the BIOS got an updated GUI.

Apple is crap when you want to run your own hardware. You can't simply put any PCI-e or PCI device into your $3000+ Mac Pro and expect it to work. Mean while any windows computer would have no problems.

With Apple it is a closed system. You do what Apple wants or Apple doesn't allow you to run on Mac. I can tell you developers hate working for the iPhone/iPod touch/iPad. Apple handles that the worst way possible. Lets say you put a million dollars into making a game for the iPhone. You don't know if Apple will accept it or not. Then even if Apple accepts it they may remove it later. Also you must use Apple approved developing tools to even be considered into the app store.

And don't get me started on how crappy iTunes is.

Also Apple is not cheap at all. When Apple makes an affordable computer for the average joe than people wont call them expensive. $1000 is too expensive for your lowest end computer. They need something less than $500 but then they would sell as many $1000 entry level Macs.

Don't get me wrong MS makes a lot of mistakes as well.

1) For the troubleshooting problem, I have one question for you: Have you ever tried to troubleshoot or debug (as in -debugging- with a debugger) any piece of software on OSX? I would need an example coming from you to continue arguying on that with you.

2) For the bios, we are talking about an 8bit piece of crap that has to handle the boot process everytime and is limiting the potential basic specs of the computer (big partition anyone?). You should go read a bit about what is really the bios else than "da blue screen where you can OC" and see why we should have moved to EFI for the past decade.
The best analogy that I can think is having brand new austin martin and still have to crank it manually each time you want to start it. It's retarded.

3) You -don't- run your own hardware on a mac. To put it simply, they build an OS then build a computer around it, not the other way around. Simplicity is the key here and stability is the key here.
And why you don't expect to have your pci/e things to work in there? Well if you knew just a bit more about EFI and what drivers are now on that platform you wouldn't even have brought up that argument. Go read about it please.

4)Sure from your opinion Apple is more closed. We call that -STANDARDS- (something we are not really used to anymore in computing). Also a lot of the people developing on the ipod/pad/touch are incompetent programmer always whining about objC being crap and what not and wanting their C# and java and what not...
Cocoa and most of the libraries/SDK that apple gives you are possibly the best on the market to play/work with.
And if you put a million dollar into a damn game and for a certain reason you didn't talk to apple first about the concept or find a way to sign a contract with them, well you deserve to be a failure and loose that much money! Common sense anyone?

5) iTune I can't really talk as I don't use it personally.

6) For the price of entry level macs, did at LEAST went on Apple's site to check the price of the Mini?
Over a 1000$? Nice one

I have no problem discussing/arguing with you, but I have the small feeling that there's still a lot of things you are not fully informed on. It would be good if you could read a bit more on the subject or at least about OSX itself... and again it's not an insult, I mean it.

__________________
"NIX is a classic example of security through obscurity because there is no real monetary reward for crackers and hackers to break Linix" -AkG

Last edited by Arinoth; April 30, 2010 at 04:08 PM.
Reason: Double Posting

And I'm finally glad to see that they dropped it in 7, even though it should have been way earlier like a few company did.
And for the company still using 16 bit systems, well that is still the fault of MS not driving the market enough in the good direction. It's not hard to see that they prefer profit over innovation.

They didn't drop it in Windows 7. They dropped it in every single 64-bit version of Windows they have ever made (including the IA64 versions of Windows as well, but that's a completely different story anyway).

Quote:

Originally Posted by m1dget

And you misinterpreted completely the sense of "if it ain't broke don't fix it" adage
We are talking about a company still SUPPORTING 16 bits system, not a lone 16 bits system still running in a random restaurant/shop somewhere that were stopped being supported for the past 15 years.

But you are wrong, since Microsoft does not support 16-bit and has not for many years. Just because 16-bit software works in their OS doesn't mean it is being actively supported.

Yes you can get a mac mini but then you still need to buy a screen which adds at least $120. Then you need to still buy a keyboard and mouse. So the not so cheap mac mini can easily get close to a grand unless you buy used. Trust me I buy them for people and people still usually spend a grand on a mac mini system after buying stuff you need.

When you boot up a mac and if there is a problem like with my moms mac mini there was just a white screen and nothing else. It was also out of warranty so I had to some how fix it. Well so with no error code or beeps or anything I had to just randomly try stuff. While at least with any windows system you get beeps or a code. So the inferior 8bit piece of crap does a better job than the 2010 worthless piece of crap in Macs. Also you can't really change anything in the BIOS for Mac.

3) Lets say you want to add in your own raid controller, or wireless card, tv tuner, or PCIe SSD card. Oh wait you can't because it isn't supported by the OS unless almighty Steve wants it to. So you can only use your Mac how Apple wants it. Oh and last I checked windows is simple and stable as well.

Also by no means am I saying Snow Leopard is a bad OS. I think it is a great OS and in many ways better than Windows 7.

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