Conflict of Interest

you guys talk so much **** on frank but you wont let this **** die. its just pages and pages of the same stupid comments. if youre really that more mature than frank just come to the realization that some people are nice and some ppl arent. please LET THIS THREAD DIE!

honestly, is there any "fun" left in paintball? the more and more i read in this thread i want to quit playing paintball altogether. For a professional paintball player to say those things to other participants of the sport is just plain weak and childish. i personally know jimmy and call him one of my best friends and for frank to say "You look like a God damn retard, get the **** off my field" to a photographer promoting the league in which you are a board member of is just plain dumb....

It's sucks that a ref actually told you this. I hope it was a miscommunication or misunderstanding, because if that is what he said, unfortunately it's not true. What makes it worse is if there is a ref on the field who thinks that, they obviously don't know how and when to apply the proper penalty.

It really does suck. if a ref makes a mistake thats fine. we all do and i have reffed a ton and i have given my share of bad calls. However clear rules need to be stated to captain and refs well before the paintball season has even begun.

separation between refs and the league would be a way to start.
Get rid of the Current ultimate ref and promote a new ultimate ref from within.
Or even better, get rid of the ultimate ref and make each head ref the final and immutable authority on that field.
Institue some sort of instant replay system. (there is enough media on sidelines).
Here is an idea, pay the reffs more money. Make their pay incentive/performance based. Have a third party watch dog outfit evaluate the reffs.
Perhaps make reffs part of the decision making process somehow. If the league is OWNeD by players, then include reffs in those meetings.
These are just my opinion.

You're the first player who's suggested the refs be more involved with the league, which is something I've been saying since I became a ref. It's a shame because we feel like some teams do; an after thought. I'm glad a player sees this.

They've tried to "evaluate" the refs during events. They copy down our jersey numbers and note where we are on each field, and there have been events where feedback is delivered in real time and adjustments are made, but normally there is no review beyond that. I guess the ultimate review process is if they call you back for the next event or not.

__________________Team Voodoo (Tampa) 2000-2003 and alive and kicking in 2012!Proud member of Rockin' Cocks

Hmm, just because its been done before doesn't mean that it is done the right way. The purpose of the evaluation isn't to see how good a ref you are, but what to fix in order to make you a better ref. Situational teaching comes to mind, ie, you did this on this field but instead you should do this.
If the refs had authoritative power on the field and if their decisions weren't second guessed, perhaps there could be improvement.
But until the powers that be continue to do business as usual, this will not happen.
These people eat, breathe and play paintball for a living, yet they can't come up with a better model for refing?
I find it hard to believe.
it is more likely that they want to keep power over these things in order to achieve more desired outcomes.

I hear ya. I really wish there was some way for the reffing to be done better. Some events are better than others. Some are worse. I feel horrible when an event is not consistent.

It does baffle me that they say the refs word on the field is final, but that's not always the case. I was head ref in KC a few years ago and a kid threw a gun and pissed a fit and got in a refs face. I took his player ID and issued a three game suspension and when I told the ultimate at the time I was suspending him because of his actions, they over turned the suspension and told me it wasn't warranted. The player had received a warning on our field a game before for storming out of the dead box, and the ultimate was aware of it.

__________________Team Voodoo (Tampa) 2000-2003 and alive and kicking in 2012!Proud member of Rockin' Cocks

As a guy who will become a NPPL ref soon (june) Reading all this makes me second guess my decision to become one.I have reffed many a sports during my years and try not to ever be biased or bullied by a team or player nor will i let a player do this to me professional or not.

After seeing and reading all this (and i have watched the supposed bad call in Chicago many times) it really is the refs call above all others. In the NFL for example a player screaming at a ref will be ejected from a game as well as taunting or showboating...same needs to be enforced in paintball if we ever want it to really be a pro sport!

Players that are pros need to above everybody represent their sport most of all through good stewardship. The phrase lead by example is very strong and it seems some players really need to keep that in mind!

I love this game and really hope it does grow more and more in the future the best way to do this is by setting examples from the top guys and letting it trickle down not vice versa!

Don't let this thread scare you, the *****ing is done here because the *****ing CAN be done here. On the field, the refs neither know nor care who the players are. There is no bias for or against any players, but it makes good internet gossip. Does that mean we refs are perfect? Of course not, but it isn't as bad as some make it out to be. For every player who *****es about a call, here or at the events, there are 3-4 players who thank us for doing this job.

Don't let this thread scare you, the *****ing is done here because the *****ing CAN be done here. On the field, the refs neither know nor care who the players are. There is no bias for or against any players, but it makes good internet gossip. Does that mean we refs are perfect? Of course not, but it isn't as bad as some make it out to be. For every player who *****es about a call, here or at the events, there are 3-4 players who thank us for doing this job.

i disagree. I think that over time there is a history of Cali love in a lot of tournaments. Further more, what is hampering you guys as refs isn't so much players *****ing, but the over ruling of your calls by the ultimate ref. You can't tell me that it doesn't concern you that at anytime if you make a call even, if it is a mistake, the ultimate ref can come and over rule you. That can't be a good feeling that your authority is always in question.

I am not saying its your fault. You guys are being setup to fail. The rules are not clear. YOu are not trained to handle certain situations and in many occasions you refs are not trained properly.
This thread my contain *****ing, but it also contains ideas on how to get better. If nobody ever *****ed, how would you know something was wrong?
Every major sport has made considerable efforts to improve their officiating. What has paintball (NPPL) done lately? Not much. Same old story as before.
Fly by the seat of your pants and hope nothing goes wrong.
Guess what. Something went wrong and in the biggest stage. What are you going to go about it now? Say, oh well that's paintball? That's the problem. Do something, thats all we ask. Do something.

Sorry but your wrong the ultimate very rarely overturns calls. I myself have never been overturned in my calls. This past event I don't think a single call was overturned, no matter how much the players complained. I seen countless players arguing even the next day and all they got was a better luck next time.

As far as the cali love comment i believe that to be completly absurd. Every event is made up of refs from all over the country. In chicago for example there were a total of 3 refs from cali and that includes the ultimate.

Most of the problems come from players that argue consistently and believe no matter what the circumstances they are right and that the ref is a complete moron, but like sparten said for every 1 player that decides to act like a beligerent fool there is 5 to tell you what a amazing job your doing. The only problem I agree with you on is the handling of the training of the refs, but that is all from the support of the league. You gotta realize though that this is a new league with an old name and theres not enough money invested in the league for there to be that support. The only thing that can really be done is for teams to bring up real concerns with the board.

Sorry but your wrong the ultimate very rarely overturns calls. I myself have never been overturned in my calls. This past event I don't think a single call was overturned, no matter how much the players complained. I seen countless players arguing even the next day and all they got was a better luck next time.

As far as the cali love comment i believe that to be completly absurd. Every event is made up of refs from all over the country. In chicago for example there were a total of 3 refs from cali and that includes the ultimate.

Most of the problems come from players that argue consistently and believe no matter what the circumstances they are right and that the ref is a complete moron, but like sparten said for every 1 player that decides to act like a beligerent fool there is 5 to tell you what a amazing job your doing. The only problem I agree with you on is the handling of the training of the refs, but that is all from the support of the league. You gotta realize though that this is a new league with an old name and theres not enough money invested in the league for there to be that support. The only thing that can really be done is for teams to bring up real concerns with the board.

Sorry, but you are talking to the captain of a team who has played the only repeated/do over game in NPPL history (to my knowledge) due to the head refs decision. This was caused due to the bickering, and demands of another person who is a large business owner in the paintball industry.

Don't let this thread scare you, the *****ing is done here because the *****ing CAN be done here. On the field, the refs neither know nor care who the players are. There is no bias for or against any players, but it makes good internet gossip. Does that mean we refs are perfect? Of course not, but it isn't as bad as some make it out to be. For every player who *****es about a call, here or at the events, there are 3-4 players who thank us for doing this job.

I think there is a difference between these players you do not know or care about and the players you DO know, and DO care about. Such as ones who share ownership of the league you ref. The bias for those players, as many people in this thread, and others, have pointed out hurts the league, and the sport as a whole.

separation between refs and the league would be a way to start.
Get rid of the Current ultimate ref and promote a new ultimate ref from within.

since 2009, dan perez has been more of a 'referee manager', while tom cole has taken over the role of ultimate ref. i believe this has been the case with dan perez even before 2009, but im not too sure. didnt dave zinkham make the decision to replay the NxN/nurv game in 2007? so the post-bankrupt NPPL ultimate ref has been tom cole. so im not sure if you mean get rid of tom, or dan? dave zinkhams tenure ended with the bankruptcy of the old NPPL.

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...make each head ref the final and immutable authority on that field.

this was another post-bankrupt nppl change. i do not recall tom cole ever overturning any call made on the field during his current tenure. if anyone can dispute this, chime in.

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Institute some sort of instant replay system. (there is enough media on sidelines).

although instant replay is utilized in many professional sports, i dont think it is feasible in paintball. referee decisions in paintball need to be instantaneous, and reviewing a play after the game is over is pretty much moot. lets say you review the game, and IF a call is overturned, what then? do you replay the game? imagine what this would do to the daily schedule, not to mention the paint bill. who would get to use the instant replay? every division? professional division only? under what circumstances will IR be used? in an 'i shot him first' situation? finals only? so you are saying that all media personnel will be required to turn over their cameras to help the refs make a decision? what if no media had an angle on that particular spot on the field? i know some photographers migrate from field to field to cover divisional games/carry out their contract work/take a break etc. i do not see how instant replay would have changed the outcome of the chicago nppl pro finals. this is a perfect example of your previous concern. the head ref made a decision on the field, and that was it. tom cole did not come over and overturn the decision and make them replay that game.

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Here is an idea, pay the reffs more money. Make their pay incentive/performance based. Have a third party watch dog outfit evaluate the reffs.

i used to ref in a time when the head ref got paid $300 per day reffing. not to mention free matching gear from a major vendor. those days are long gone. refs these days are getting a fraction of that, so it goes to show what incentive the current refs have for doing this job-it certainly isnt for the money. is it to have power over a small group of people for three days? is it to run around on a paintball field sunup to sundown, for half of what you were getting paid 5 years ago? or maybe it is to succumb to every beck and call from 1 particular pro player? keep in mind that the very same group of refs who were biased for that pro player in the semi finals were biased against him in the finals match. call the refs biased, but you are going to have to call them inconsistent biased refs.

having the referees pay performance-based is too subjective. what 'performance' warrants more pay? is it the ref who does 100 paintchecks per day? is it the chrono ref who checks every person for their ID and layers? and how much will the cut/bonus be? meaning the absolute worst referee of the weekend will get paid x amount, and you will get bonuses based on (???). and how much will each of the bonus criteria warrant? do you get a $500 bonus for covering up a player when their goggles fall off their face? the notion of getting paid based on what someone else thinks of your performance is too problematic. will the 'watch dog outfit' also get paid based on their performance? "who will police the police"? imagine the retaliation when a referee receives their paycheck and there are severe cuts because the watchdog outfit doesnt like that particular referee, or they felt like that particular referee wasnt carrying their weight all weekend (based on ???). we can be idealistic and assume that this card wont come into play, but we cannot rule out the possibility. i hope i am making my point without sounding offensive. I'm just asking questions...

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Perhaps make reffs part of the decision making process somehow. If the league is OWNED by players, then include reffs in those meetings.

i do not know who regularly attends the board meetings, and whether or not a representative for the referees is present at these meetings. i agree that there should be referee representation at the meetings (maybe there already is? both of are us are just speculating on whether it is or isnt happening, since neither of us are on the board)

it *seems* like your knowledge on the necessary changes (or lack of) in the NPPL is a bit dated? some of your points have already been implemented, for a couple of years now. im not saying the nppl is a finely tuned machine, but they have made some changes for the better.

here is my idea, and it is an elaboration on your comment about the refs not being trained properly...lmk what you think.

i believe refs should have to put in field time in between events. some of these refs will have 4 events a year experience, yet they are expected to hold a standard of reffing that requires more practice than 4 times a year.

imagine playing for a team that had 1 tryout (similar to ref clinic).
then not practicing at all before the event. you get to the event with really high expectations of doing well, yet you perform poorly.

whos to blame? is the solution to get rid of the 'bad' players on the team, replace them with different players, but still follow the same no-practice schedule? we can spout all we want about getting 'better' refs, but what is root reason why there are some refs that are better than others? i believe the better refs put in field time between events, to stay on their toes. reffing isnt a natural ability. IMO the more someone practices reffing, the better they will become. situational teaching will work, but i dont think the place to do it is at the event. have it done between events, at team practices where making a mistake isnt going to cause a major controversy.

but obviously most refs have better things to do than to drive out to a tournament field and ref for free. so who should compensate them? the field? the league? will that reflect a higher entry fee to cover these costs?

but of course this is only if you agree that refs should be required to log field time between events.

I don't mean to single out undrdg, but he is the only one brainstorming possible solutions to improve reffing.

__________________
sup'airball-national and regional tournament field builder since 2006

since 2009, dan perez has been more of a 'referee manager', while tom cole has taken over the role of ultimate ref. i believe this has been the case with dan perez even before 2009, but im not too sure. didnt dave zinkham make the decision to replay the NxN/nurv game in 2007? so the post-bankrupt NPPL ultimate ref has been tom cole. so im not sure if you mean get rid of tom, or dan? dave zinkhams tenure ended with the bankruptcy of the old NPPL.

this was another post-bankrupt nppl change. i do not recall tom cole ever overturning any call made on the field during his current tenure. if anyone can dispute this, chime in.

Dan Perez and Dave Zinkham both conferred with each other before deciding the outcome of the game.

Isn't Tom Cole an ex-player/coach? What qualifications does he have to be an ultimate ref? Why not promote an actual ref? Does Tom Cole have a stake in the NPPL? Most pro players know Tom Cole personally, so what impartiality does he have? What I am proposing is a pure ref hold this position. Someone that does not have a history of playing in the league. Someone that does not have a vested interest in the sponsors of the league (knigman).
Didn't Tom Cole affect the outcome of the Uprising/Avalanche game? Overturned the whole game after the fact.

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although instant replay is utilized in many professional sports, i dont think it is feasible in paintball. referee decisions in paintball need to be instantaneous, and reviewing a play after the game is over is pretty much moot. lets say you review the game, and IF a call is overturned, what then? do you replay the game? imagine what this would do to the daily schedule, not to mention the paint bill. who would get to use the instant replay? every division? professional division only? under what circumstances will IR be used? in an 'i shot him first' situation? finals only? so you are saying that all media personnel will be required to turn over their cameras to help the refs make a decision? what if no media had an angle on that particular spot on the field? i know some photographers migrate from field to field to cover divisional games/carry out their contract work/take a break etc. i do not see how instant replay would have changed the outcome of the chicago nppl pro finals. this is a perfect example of your previous concern. the head ref made a decision on the field, and that was it. tom cole did not come over and overturn the decision and make them replay that game.

Perhaps you are right about this, but what if there is a ref that is constantly watching the game through a monitor along with the refs on the field? But you are right, the game itself might not be conducive to IR during the game. But before making a judgement call like has been done in the past at the END of the game, it might be useful. In other words, if the game is going to be decided by refs conferring about a blown call after the game, then USE IR.

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i used to ref in a time when the head ref got paid $300 per day reffing. not to mention free matching gear from a major vendor. those days are long gone. refs these days are getting a fraction of that, so it goes to show what incentive the current refs have for doing this job-it certainly isnt for the money. is it to have power over a small group of people for three days? is it to run around on a paintball field sunup to sundown, for half of what you were getting paid 5 years ago? or maybe it is to succumb to every beck and call from 1 particular pro player? keep in mind that the very same group of refs who were biased for that pro player in the semi finals were biased against him in the finals match. call the refs biased, but you are going to have to call them inconsistent biased refs.

You just hit the nail on the head. There is no incentives for bettering of the reffing. You are set up to fail. You get paid peanuts and you have your calls scrutinized by someone that gets paid a whole lot more than you do.

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having the referees pay performance-based is too subjective. what 'performance' warrants more pay? is it the ref who does 100 paintchecks per day? is it the chrono ref who checks every person for their ID and layers? and how much will the cut/bonus be? meaning the absolute worst referee of the weekend will get paid x amount, and you will get bonuses based on (???). and how much will each of the bonus criteria warrant? do you get a $500 bonus for covering up a player when their goggles fall off their face? the notion of getting paid based on what someone else thinks of your performance is too problematic. will the 'watch dog outfit' also get paid based on their performance? "who will police the police"? imagine the retaliation when a referee receives their paycheck and there are severe cuts because the watchdog outfit doesnt like that particular referee, or they felt like that particular referee wasnt carrying their weight all weekend (based on ???). we can be idealistic and assume that this card wont come into play, but we cannot rule out the possibility. i hope i am making my point without sounding offensive. I'm just asking questions...

IF you can't tell the difference between a good ref and a bad one, then once again, you have a big problem with the way reffing is handled. That is why you are set up to fail. You have too many grey areas to effectively govern your field.

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i do not know who regularly attends the board meetings, and whether or not a representative for the referees is present at these meetings. i agree that there should be referee representation at the meetings (maybe there already is? both of are us are just speculating on whether it is or isnt happening, since neither of us are on the board)

Well if the refs had some sort of authority in the board room, perhaps it will transfer to the field. Perhaps refs should have the power write the rules rather than have the players vote on them. After all the refs are the ones that enforce the rules, not the player. The players need to abide by them, but if they can bully a ref into changing a call, then whats the point?

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it *seems* like your knowledge on the necessary changes (or lack of) in the NPPL is a bit dated? some of your points have already been implemented, for a couple of years now. im not saying the nppl is a finely tuned machine, but they have made some changes for the better.

My knowledge or lack thereof is sort of irrelevant isn't it? Things keep happening whether i play or not. Reffing is a problem whether i voice an opinion or not. YOu know there is something wrong, but can't do anything about it. So you defend what you do. I don't blame you. But again, you have to realize, that you are all being setup to fail and fail big. ONce you all see that, maybe then you will do something about it.

Quote:

here is my idea, and it is an elaboration on your comment about the refs not being trained properly...lmk what you think.

i believe refs should have to put in field time in between events. some of these refs will have 4 events a year experience, yet they are expected to hold a standard of reffing that requires more practice than 4 times a year.

imagine playing for a team that had 1 tryout (similar to ref clinic).
then not practicing at all before the event. you get to the event with really high expectations of doing well, yet you perform poorly.

whos to blame? is the solution to get rid of the 'bad' players on the team, replace them with different players, but still follow the same no-practice schedule? we can spout all we want about getting 'better' refs, but what is root reason why there are some refs that are better than others? i believe the better refs put in field time between events, to stay on their toes. reffing isnt a natural ability. IMO the more someone practices reffing, the better they will become. situational teaching will work, but i dont think the place to do it is at the event. have it done between events, at team practices where making a mistake isnt going to cause a major controversy.

but obviously most refs have better things to do than to drive out to a tournament field and ref for free. so who should compensate them? the field? the league? will that reflect a higher entry fee to cover these costs?

but of course this is only if you agree that refs should be required to log field time between events.

I don't mean to single out undrdg, but he is the only one brainstorming possible solutions to improve reffing.

The main problem isn't the refs. Its the rules. Make rules that are clearer and more enforceable. Make rules that are black and white. Don't be afraid to change the game to fit the rules. Make your presence known. You are the authority on the field. Come tournament time, there are no friends that are players. Look at the NBA. Players are not allowed to argue calls anymore. Players are not to talk to refs before or after the game. The refs are the final say of the game. Period. Game over. That's it.

I think there is a difference between these players you do not know or care about and the players you DO know, and DO care about. Such as ones who share ownership of the league you ref. The bias for those players, as many people in this thread, and others, have pointed out hurts the league, and the sport as a whole.

Sorry but once again im gonna have to disagre, and I just wanna say that I am not trying to argue everything you guys say, but to give you a refs opinion. Players think we care about who's on the field, but the truth is that once you step on that field you are just team A and team B. I could care less if the players on the field on the league. A good example of that would be frank and the past chicago event. He complaned about every game almost, even the ones he won. You guys gotta realize that we simply just don't care who's on the field and that we are just trying to a job

Dan Perez and Dave Zinkham both conferred with each other before deciding the outcome of the game.

Isn't Tom Cole an ex-player/coach? What qualifications does he have to be an ultimate ref? Why not promote an actual ref? Does Tom Cole have a stake in the NPPL? Most pro players know Tom Cole personally, so what impartiality does he have? What I am proposing is a pure ref hold this position. Someone that does not have a history of playing in the league. Someone that does not have a vested interest in the sponsors of the league (knigman).
Didn't Tom Cole affect the outcome of the Uprising/Avalanche game? Overturned the whole game after the fact.

No he did not overturn the game. Never overturned a call all weekend long. I will say that Tom Cole does a damn good job at being an ultimate.

The player who hung the flag was determined to have an obvious hit, and after the penalty was assessed, there were no live bodies for either team. The swing rule didn't come into play since Uprising had enough live bodies to assess the penalties. Therefore, it was a draw. That was determined on the field before Tom ever set foot on the field.

__________________Team Voodoo (Tampa) 2000-2003 and alive and kicking in 2012!Proud member of Rockin' Cocks