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Running an empty skill bar was also a viable way of finishing GW1 PvE.

Apparently loads of people like to gimp themselves.

Next people will post wammos with healing hands and mending...

It is very simple, in any game with limited party sizes if my build out perform yours I get the spot and you get the boot. So only the best builds are viable.

Only the best builds are viable if you PUG, yes. But when you play with a guild at least my guild are way more interested in resaults than your build and gear.

We know who is good or not and the good people are the one that gets invited to most runs, but someone playing really good with bad gear and odd builds still gets priority over someone that plays badly with good gear.

Of course we also try to teach the ropes to players not as good, our guild is based on IRL friends. We did also try to help people with builds in GW1 but some people are rather stubborn.

If you are good enough you can more or less use any build and still do well, even if you sadly might miss many PUGs. But whenever I do PUG now in GW2 I dont really bother about the groups gear or builds because I frankly think peoples personality is more interesting. Stuff we havnt completed have been to rude idiots who dies more than everyone eklse, try to shift the blame and then disconnects without warning, and my experience is that they often have good gear and builds they copied of the net.

I can pull a bad group through almost all stuff in PvE (besides the fractal in the swamp, you need 3 good guys for that one minimum) as long as they are willing to listen to advice and arent quiters.I can not stop someon with disfunctional personality to make playing boring or someone to disconnect the first time they die.

And since guild Vs guild PvP isnt in yet, I only care about gear and specs in tournaments.

Of course since I play in a guild I help people getting good gear and help out with the speccs as way anyways, even if we do have a few stubborn players like the necro who must have all his minions equipped at the same time...

Again, it isn't about being a bad player or a good player, being able to finish something or not.

It is about builds and professions balance.

Self gimping for whatever motive is ok but the game design shouldn't be about that.

You could finish GW1 PvE naked, with a team smaller than the one give, with an empty skill bar.

That didn't make professions like the mesmer attractive until it was redone, it didn't make Dervishes any more desirable than Assassins and Warriors running with scythes until it was redone, etc.

GW2 is less complex than GW1 in the sense it is easier to avoid really bad builds, this is, the difference between a bad build and a good build is much smaller in GW2.

Additionally the GW2 team build system is less complex in the sense all the professions have useful general skills, instead of narrow skills that had to be specifically picked in the 8x8 build instead of the indivual build.

On the other hand, GW2 has more viable builds and selecting the appropriate equipment and runes/glyphs/traits is much more important than in GW1.

Still GW2 isn't totally balanced.

But some in these threads like to say there is no variation between professions.

That is complete BS when in the same profession you can have a build that is about staying there spamming a skill and another is based on having 4 dodges in the time the other build would have 2.

And that is an example of many.

Most people simply look that there is no hard line between the professions (all do a bit of everything albeit in different ways) and call it shallow, as if stitching 3 games together made the game more complex, as if the choice of the tank influenced the healer build and the DPS build and vice-versa.

Basically they say that since all the professions deal damage, all have a self heal and all have support/control they play the same and that is like saying a WoW protection paladin is the same as a WoW protection warrior or a mage is the same as warlock, since they both tank or they both are ranged magic dps.

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Originally posted by fundayz

Originally posted by Faelsun

The average class is not even as flexible as a WOW Shaman and ALL of them have a DPS focus. Snowflake? How about SOME deviation at all. All classes have not only limited weapon options but those weapon skills are all for the most part DPS focussed. Then about 20 skills that are in 4 or so skill types that are bracketed off and your choices dwindle as you further speciallize down the traits.

You act as if everyone is not already spending the entire match match just dealing damage and you are right it certainly isnt the pinnacle of variation. Just because every class has a mandatory heal slot doesn't make them really hybrids, it feels more like a FPS with a med kit honestly. And the chain CCing and healing in WOW is frustrating however, thier idea of CC in GW2 is laughagle, and healing what a few hundred points a tic compared to how much DPS burst.t

Tell you what you map the amount of DPS per second ANY class in GW2 can do and put it side by side to any other type of Control, healing, fear, etc that it can do and explain to me how that its balanced.

Pretty much all of what you wrote is false.

The vast majority of weapon skills perform multiple roles, including healing, protecting, crowd control, etc. You are rarely doing JUST DPS, much like you are rarely doing just healing or CC. Not only that but you also ignore the element of positioning and mobility inherent to many skills.

It isn't all dps... in organized team play team rezzes, stuns, and buffs/conditions are key

Again, most skills do dmg/heal, dmg/control, heal/support, etc. Damage is somewhat more prevalent and that is on purpose: the devs even said pre-release that offense was always going to break through defence eventually

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon

They sometimes perform multiple roles but mostly their primary role is DPS and even more rare than that do they no do dps at all, in rare cases like Cleansing Wave, line of warding etc. do they specialize in healing or CC and those are almost always water elementalist or staff skills.

You cannot seriously compare the DPS in Gw2 to a few Rez abilities or 1 second fears or stuns.

It is not "somewhat" more prevalent, it is tremendously more prevalent you CAN specialize in Pure dps witih some kind of Condition, crit damange build but you CANNOT make an even 75% CC/heal spec. Non DPS abilities are at best 25% of your spec and that is in extreme cases, more often than not your non dps abilties exist to allow you to do more dps or take less dps, but DPS is without a doubt king. Which is why pvp is such a shallow dps spam borefest atm.

Like I said a side by side comparison will reveal the inherit weakness other skills have to dps, take fear skills for instance.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fear

Most of which do 1 whole second of fear but also do damange half of them are highly situational or pve only but realistically 5-6 skills over 3 classes only counting in skull fear for thieves if they get lucky enough to use it, realistically 2 classes and usually just Necromancers, compared to say oh I dunno Bleeding.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bleeding

roughly 100+ skills and weapon skills over every class that do huge sums of damage.

What you say fear isnt a fair side by side, fine Daze 22, knockdown 19, Stun 19 .. actually there are more skills that break stun than actual stun skills, all those skill totals combined not only don't even match just ONE dps skill list Bleeding, but the durations of those skills are so low comparitivly there is no comparison as to which are more powerful.

You think a Mesmer will focus on stacking confusion or a one second stun?

A necro will sometimes have a one second fear but you think he will be a heavy condition build of try to do CC?

Some of the better support options on Ranger and Engineers are mostly ignored because of the obvious power difference of condition stacking. I doubt you will see many rangers using Shouts, especially no Search and Rescue. But you will see almost half of them using sharpening stones.

Everybody is DPS with minor skills but no one is Healing with minor DPS or CC with a few conditions, everyone is a Primary DPS.

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Originally posted by Faelsun

Originally posted by fundayz

Originally posted by Faelsun

The average class is not even as flexible as a WOW Shaman and ALL of them have a DPS focus. Snowflake? How about SOME deviation at all. All classes have not only limited weapon options but those weapon skills are all for the most part DPS focussed. Then about 20 skills that are in 4 or so skill types that are bracketed off and your choices dwindle as you further speciallize down the traits.

You act as if everyone is not already spending the entire match match just dealing damage and you are right it certainly isnt the pinnacle of variation. Just because every class has a mandatory heal slot doesn't make them really hybrids, it feels more like a FPS with a med kit honestly. And the chain CCing and healing in WOW is frustrating however, thier idea of CC in GW2 is laughagle, and healing what a few hundred points a tic compared to how much DPS burst.t

Tell you what you map the amount of DPS per second ANY class in GW2 can do and put it side by side to any other type of Control, healing, fear, etc that it can do and explain to me how that its balanced.

Pretty much all of what you wrote is false.

The vast majority of weapon skills perform multiple roles, including healing, protecting, crowd control, etc. You are rarely doing JUST DPS, much like you are rarely doing just healing or CC. Not only that but you also ignore the element of positioning and mobility inherent to many skills.

It isn't all dps... in organized team play team rezzes, stuns, and buffs/conditions are key

Again, most skills do dmg/heal, dmg/control, heal/support, etc. Damage is somewhat more prevalent and that is on purpose: the devs even said pre-release that offense was always going to break through defence eventually

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon

They sometimes perform multiple roles but mostly their primary role is DPS and even more rare than that do they no do dps at all, in rare cases like Cleansing Wave, line of warding etc. do they specialize in healing or CC and those are almost always water elementalist or staff skills.

You cannot seriously compare the DPS in Gw2 to a few Rez abilities or 1 second fears or stuns.

It is not "somewhat" more prevalent, it is tremendously more prevalent you CAN specialize in Pure dps witih some kind of Condition, crit damange build but you CANNOT make an even 75% CC/heal spec. Non DPS abilities are at best 25% of your spec and that is in extreme cases, more often than not your non dps abilties exist to allow you to do more dps or take less dps, but DPS is without a doubt king. Which is why pvp is such a shallow dps spam borefest atm.

Like I said a side by side comparison will reveal the inherit weakness other skills have to dps, take fear skills for instance.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fear

Most of which do 1 whole second of fear but also do damange half of them are highly situational or pve only but realistically 5-6 skills over 3 classes only counting in skull fear for thieves if they get lucky enough to use it, realistically 2 classes and usually just Necromancers, compared to say oh I dunno Bleeding.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bleeding

roughly 100+ skills and weapon skills over every class that do huge sums of damage.

What you say fear isnt a fair side by side, fine Daze 22, knockdown 19, Stun 19 .. actually there are more skills that break stun than actual stun skills, all those skill totals combined not only don't even match just ONE dps skill list Bleeding, but the durations of those skills are so low comparitivly there is no comparison as to which are more powerful.

You think a Mesmer will focus on stacking confusion or a one second stun?

A necro will sometimes have a one second fear but you think he will be a heavy condition build of try to do CC?

Some of the better support options on Ranger and Engineers are mostly ignored because of the obvious power difference of condition stacking. I doubt you will see many rangers using Shouts, especially no Search and Rescue. But you will see almost half of them using sharpening stones.

Everybody is DPS with minor skills but no one is Healing with minor DPS or CC with a few conditions, everyone is a Primary DPS.

Powerful damage means small CC/interrupt times are devastating.

And being able to fight in a game about fighting makes more sense to me than having characters that can't stand a hit or hit for tickles.

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What annoys me about GW2's combat system is the lack of variety. Most of the melee/ranged/magic spells are the same just with different animations/graphic effects. I miss the times where mages were really unique, doing things only mages can do (portals, conjure stuff etc.) which was very important to me in the MMORPG.

But this combat system is only about DPS and dodging with the occasional heal thrown in there.

Now I am not a hater of GW2, just stating my opinion. I have 2 lvl 80s and had my fun until I realised that the combat was quite boring and too simple.

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Compared to a game like Age of Wushu, GW2 combat is restrictive and quite frankly boring as hell. Age Of Wushu also has active blocking and parrying but it is totally skilled based with no classes or levels. I can use any weapons in the game and choose how and what role I want to play in the game.

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Ability watching, moving out of the area of attack range, a few hotkeys that cover various tasks like single target damage and area of effect damage.

Absolutely nothing I can think of that other MMOs haven't already done, probably the only thing they did really was make the combat look different.

TSW, WoW and Swtor all had the same elements as GW2, they just presented them differently. The main difference that people I think are mistaking is the freedom to create a very customised character build in some games over others, although this can be fun, it doesn't add depth to combat, your still moving out of spells, interupting the spells, using the correct damage keys at the right time. Same tasks different spell make up.

I personally play MMORPGs for the character customisation and character progression systems, the combat in all of them varies in style/animation only.

Unfortunately I didn't enjoy guild wars 2 character progression or customisation at all.

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Originally posted by 1vald2

What annoys me about GW2's combat system is the lack of variety. Most of the melee/ranged/magic spells are the same just with different animations/graphic effects. I miss the times where mages were really unique, doing things only mages can do (portals, conjure stuff etc.) which was very important to me in the MMORPG.

But this combat system is only about DPS and dodging with the occasional heal thrown in there.

Now I am not a hater of GW2, just stating my opinion. I have 2 lvl 80s and had my fun until I realised that the combat was quite boring and too simple.

For those that like the combat (and game), have fun playing it :)

Warrior and Guardians both have a spin attack with their greatsword, but the warrior's spin attack is just a spin attack going in one direction of your choice, while the guardian's spin attack can change directions and throws bolts of holy energy.

Elementalists and Mesmers both have distance attacks with scepters, but the elementalist's attack changes with their elemental attunment, and can be anything from three flying ice shards, each with their own hitbox, to a single spontaneous combustion of the enemy that isn't a projectile and always hits, while the mesmer's attack is a lobbed orb of purple energy that creates illusions to confuse your enemies.

And that's just the weapon skills. The really unique stuff lies in the utility and elite skills, where elementalists can summon flaming greatswords, mesmers can polymorph their enemies, warriors can ditch their weapons and pummel their enemies with fists, and guardians can temporarily summon magic books that buff their allies.

I have trouble seeing how what I just described are merely the same attacks with "different animations/graphics effects".

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Originally posted by MadDemon64

Originally posted by 1vald2

What annoys me about GW2's combat system is the lack of variety. Most of the melee/ranged/magic spells are the same just with different animations/graphic effects. I miss the times where mages were really unique, doing things only mages can do (portals, conjure stuff etc.) which was very important to me in the MMORPG.

But this combat system is only about DPS and dodging with the occasional heal thrown in there.

Now I am not a hater of GW2, just stating my opinion. I have 2 lvl 80s and had my fun until I realised that the combat was quite boring and too simple.

For those that like the combat (and game), have fun playing it :)

Warrior and Guardians both have a spin attack with their greatsword, but the warrior's spin attack is just a spin attack going in one direction of your choice, while the guardian's spin attack can change directions and throws bolts of holy energy.

Elementalists and Mesmers both have distance attacks with scepters, but the elementalist's attack changes with their elemental attunment, and can be anything from three flying ice shards, each with their own hitbox, to a single spontaneous combustion of the enemy that isn't a projectile and always hits, while the mesmer's attack is a lobbed orb of purple energy that creates illusions to confuse your enemies.

And that's just the weapon skills. The really unique stuff lies in the utility and elite skills, where elementalists can summon flaming greatswords, mesmers can polymorph their enemies, warriors can ditch their weapons and pummel their enemies with fists, and guardians can temporarily summon magic books that buff their allies.

I have trouble seeing how what I just described are merely the same attacks with "different animations/graphics effects".

You fail to see my point. It's not important what the skill does, the animations are very similar to eachother (you mentioned warrior's and guardian's spin attack) with just different colors and effects. My bad for the blant explanation I gave of how GW2's combat lacks variety, but the stress is on the

"I miss the times where mages were really unique, doing things only mages can do (portals, conjure stuff etc.) which was very important to me in the MMORPG genre."

and

"But this combat system is only about DPS and dodging with the occasional heal thrown in there."

To me the combat just doesn't feel rewarding and you don't feel unique.

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Originally posted by muffins89it's percieved depth. gw2 combat is pretty shallow. aside from combo's with other players it's standard themepark combat. with movement. oh, and dodge.

I love statements like those... why? because if guild wars is shallow.. then depth in other games must be nonexistant.

+1.

Tried after GW2 and cant stay there with that standing cast skill type game without dodge or the richest gameplay you find on GW2, i think people only gaves value to GW2 after returning to their old crap gameplay MMO's with always hit skills.

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Originally posted by 1vald2

Originally posted by MadDemon64

Originally posted by 1vald2 What annoys me about GW2's combat system is the lack of variety. Most of the melee/ranged/magic spells are the same just with different animations/graphic effects. I miss the times where mages were really unique, doing things only mages can do (portals, conjure stuff etc.) which was very important to me in the MMORPG. But this combat system is only about DPS and dodging with the occasional heal thrown in there. Now I am not a hater of GW2, just stating my opinion. I have 2 lvl 80s and had my fun until I realised that the combat was quite boring and too simple. For those that like the combat (and game), have fun playing it :)

Warrior and Guardians both have a spin attack with their greatsword, but the warrior's spin attack is just a spin attack going in one direction of your choice, while the guardian's spin attack can change directions and throws bolts of holy energy.Elementalists and Mesmers both have distance attacks with scepters, but the elementalist's attack changes with their elemental attunment, and can be anything from three flying ice shards, each with their own hitbox, to a single spontaneous combustion of the enemy that isn't a projectile and always hits, while the mesmer's attack is a lobbed orb of purple energy that creates illusions to confuse your enemies.And that's just the weapon skills. The really unique stuff lies in the utility and elite skills, where elementalists can summon flaming greatswords, mesmers can polymorph their enemies, warriors can ditch their weapons and pummel their enemies with fists, and guardians can temporarily summon magic books that buff their allies.I have trouble seeing how what I just described are merely the same attacks with "different animations/graphics effects".

You fail to see my point. It's not important what the skill does, the animations are very similar to eachother (you mentioned warrior's and guardian's spin attack) with just different colors and effects. My bad for the blant explanation I gave of how GW2's combat lacks variety, but the stress is on the

"I miss the times where mages were really unique, doing things only mages can do (portals, conjure stuff etc.) which was very important to me in the MMORPG genre."

and

"But this combat system is only about DPS and dodging with the occasional heal thrown in there."

To me the combat just doesn't feel rewarding and you don't feel unique.

So in first post you say the skills do the same thing but with different animations, then you say you fail to see my point and say its not about skills being different but the animations look the same.

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Originally posted by muffins89it's percieved depth. gw2 combat is pretty shallow. aside from combo's with other players it's standard themepark combat. with movement. oh, and dodge.

I love statements like those... why? because if guild wars is shallow.. then depth in other games must be nonexistant.

+1.

Tried after GW2 and cant stay there with that standing cast skill type game without dodge or the richest gameplay you find on GW2, i think people only gaves value to GW2 after returning to their old crap gameplay MMO's with always hit skills.

It was just opposite for me. After returning to WoW (after 1 1/2 years), and RIFT, I realized that games like swtor and gw2 jumped in head first when they saw blizzard had went the streamline/simplify route in cata. Simplification and removal of depth is why I quit WoW. GW2 inparticular took those ideas far beyond where WoW was going.

GW2 out simplified/streamlined WoW, with nearly no CC, limited skill bar, and abilities that are selected and sloted for you. GW2 is the only mmorpg that I ever played that has abosolutly no need for a damage meter. I'm not even a pro-damage meter guy, but in other mmos I could atleast see where one would be useful.

Remember back in beta, when the gw2 devs said "we don't want people to be overwhelmed with choice..."?

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The simplicity of GW2 does bug me. This is also coming from a TSW player who is always looking for a new build to try, New Aux weapon combonations.

Also limiting skill slots doesnt allways remove complexity. However with how GW2 did it, thats exactly what happened. Once again take TSW for example. If we had unlimited skill slots the game would become a cakewalk.

Because i can.I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.Logic every gamers worst enemy.

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Originally posted by 1vald2

What annoys me about GW2's combat system is the lack of variety. Most of the melee/ranged/magic spells are the same just with different animations/graphic effects. I miss the times where mages were really unique, doing things only mages can do (portals, conjure stuff etc.) which was very important to me in the MMORPG.

But this combat system is only about DPS and dodging with the occasional heal thrown in there.

Now I am not a hater of GW2, just stating my opinion. I have 2 lvl 80s and had my fun until I realised that the combat was quite boring and too simple.

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Ability watching, moving out of the area of attack range, a few hotkeys that cover various tasks like single target damage and area of effect damage.

Absolutely nothing I can think of that other MMOs haven't already done, probably the only thing they did really was make the combat look different.

TSW, WoW and Swtor all had the same elements as GW2, they just presented them differently. The main difference that people I think are mistaking is the freedom to create a very customised character build in some games over others, although this can be fun, it doesn't add depth to combat, your still moving out of spells, interupting the spells, using the correct damage keys at the right time. Same tasks different spell make up.

I personally play MMORPGs for the character customisation and character progression systems, the combat in all of them varies in style/animation only.

Unfortunately I didn't enjoy guild wars 2 character progression or customisation at all.

The day you can dodge a fireball by hiding behind a deer or swing your sword at no target in WoW come back.

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Originally posted by muffins89it's percieved depth. gw2 combat is pretty shallow. aside from combo's with other players it's standard themepark combat. with movement. oh, and dodge.

I love statements like those... why? because if guild wars is shallow.. then depth in other games must be nonexistant.

+1.

Tried after GW2 and cant stay there with that standing cast skill type game without dodge or the richest gameplay you find on GW2, i think people only gaves value to GW2 after returning to their old crap gameplay MMO's with always hit skills.

It was just opposite for me. After returning to WoW (after 1 1/2 years), and RIFT, I realized that games like swtor and gw2 jumped in head first when they saw blizzard had went the streamline/simplify route in cata. Simplification and removal of depth is why I quit WoW. GW2 inparticular took those ideas far beyond where WoW was going.

GW2 out simplified/streamlined WoW, with nearly no CC, limited skill bar, and abilities that are selected and sloted for you. GW2 is the only mmorpg that I ever played that has abosolutly no need for a damage meter. I'm not even a pro-damage meter guy, but in other mmos I could atleast see where one would be useful.

Remember back in beta, when the gw2 devs said "we don't want people to be overwhelmed with choice..."?

[mod edit]

Not sure what you are talking about. Where you the type of player to do this? I'm pvpr. A pretty good one at that. I would never macro a string of spells together. It defeats the purpose of versitility.

Now I've macroed summon demon/sacrifice, or feral shape shift, but that's as far as it goes. Why in the world would a person stand in one place?

I'm sorry you see this as spiteful, but this is what I felt. It was an eye opener. I hated blizzard when I left for what they did to the game. I found a health respect after I came back (for about a month, too much of the same). I had multiple was of doing things, a lot of things. RIFT even more so. All types of situations arise in pvp. WoW/RIFT gave many more ways of tackling these situations.

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There are so many people that appear completely oblivious to traits system. If you put your points into stat bonuses than you lose out on the perks you can get from putting them into other areas. My thief has a specific build so that I can dual pistol "unload" almost constantly for consequetive burst damage at range, but I can't do that if I max out my power stat bonus.

Some people can't see past the preselected weapon skills, even though it is only a minimal factor in ones build.

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

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What amazes me is that the people pretending GW2's combat is "simplistic" never consider it may be their own fault for not adapting to it. I'm specially amused when they use WoW as example for more complex combat. And I've been playing a Tank (Druid and Death Knight) in WoW for over 7 years up to hardcore (3+ days a week, 3+hours an evening) raiding. And for PvP, my druid was always top geared for the season he was in too (he is my PvP character).

I've played games like Asheron's Call, that's possibly why I adapted to GW2 easier than the EQ/WoW clone generation. Some people just can't play if they don't have a threat table to control their enemy. So be it. It still doesn't mean GW2 has worse combat, it just means they don't understand GW2's combat because they are so used to the WoW clone threat based model that they can't imagine anything else working. Most are just used that the Tank+Healer duo control 90% of the battle that they are completely lost when a game completely breaks that equation.

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

The day you can dodge a fireball by hiding behind a deer or swing your sword at no target in WoW come back.

Actually in any of those games.

Things you could do in AC1. You can do in GW2. You can NOT do in any of the WoW clones. But players are so used to their "homing missiles" going through everything that once they can't do that anymore, they are completely lost.

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The simplicity of GW2 does bug me. This is also coming from a TSW player who is always looking for a new build to try, New Aux weapon combonations.

Also limiting skill slots doesnt allways remove complexity. However with how GW2 did it, thats exactly what happened. Once again take TSW for example. If we had unlimited skill slots the game would become a cakewalk.

GW2 has quite a complex skill system. Part of the complexity is in the passive and trait builds, but a deeper part of that is the complex skill interactions between players. There are skill combinations and there is the need for players to work together to provide healing and support on a group level.

I could probably make some trite offhand comment about how a bunch of TSW skills don't amount to depth of combat and another about cookie cutter builds, but then I wouldn't be doing their combat or skill system justice and would make myself look ignorant. People that make broad comments about GW2 combat should consider the same when those of us who actually use that complexity know better.

One thing I love about combat in GW2 is that almost anyone can come and pick it up and start playing. I have friends an family members that will never be elite but will always have fun. The other thing I love about the system is that if you really want to push possibilities the opportunity is there. This is why we're all still playing together instead of them getting frustrated and quitting.

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WoW may look like having a simple target combat, but with 60+ abilities for each class it has more depth and higher player skill cap (you realize how many little details there when you start playing competively at 2200+ arenas). Age of Conan has more depth to its combat too. I recently tried Age of Wushu and its just crazy. Ground combat, aerial combat, active blocks, numerous abilities, combos. Very indepth and hard to master. GW2.. well I like the combat system, but I dont think it has more depth then other MMOs