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So if Morgenroete was going so far as the make sure no one found out they made the Astray Frames, I'm pretty sure it wasn't in their agreement with the EA.

Or maybe they just don't want anyone to find-out they are creating mobile suits in the first place? Just because EA provided them with data, does not mean EA could restrict Orb's capacity in producing mobile suits, or if Orb made it clear to EA that they wouldn't be producing mobile suits. I don't recall such promises being made in SEED or side materials.

But, what Orb had was neutrality, and mobile suits would jeopardize that, wouldn't it? Especially when they are associated with EA in the first place. That would make them EA's accomplice in ZAFT's eyes. Ultimately, having mobile suits would make ORB look bad, so they tried to conceal them, not because they were in some sort of agreement with anyone.

And while that was eventually the case, it did not happen until much, much later.

When did it become Orb's business to pick a side of two other independent nations? Why is it their business to mettle between two countries disputes? Coordinators and Naturals went to Orb for the sole reason to escape the war( aka Kira's parents).

As for accepting help from ZAFT, how would that look to the Earth Forces? It would completely validate why they went to war with them. When they gave their ultimatum to Orb, it was stated that refusing to join the Earth Forces, they would perceive them as supporters of ZAFT when they were not.

When did it become acceptable for a country to bully and attack another nation because they refuse to enter a war they want nothing to be a part of? Just because Orb refused to join the Earth Forces( along with refusing to join ZAFT), doesn't give the Earth Forces the right to go and attack them over it. That line of thinking is down right disturbing to think that you find it wrong that an independent country wants nothing to do with two other independent countries dispute.....

When ORB decided that they were better than everyone else and their Leaders talked down upon the Feds and ZAFT due to their "petty" conflict. The Lion even mentions that ORB is where Naturals and Coordinators are getting along so the war is a stupid race war being run by those that desire power. Despite being "Proud" that their way was right and possibly they never once tried to show the rest of humanity that their way works and that this isn't a pointless race war. Instead ORB refused both sides, chided them, than caused the death of thousands of their own citizens due to foolish pride.

Doing nothing when can stop it is just as horrible as sitting back and watching two people kill each other. ORB's arrogant leaders died due to their pride and the sad thing is that they left Cagalli with no Political leaders left to support her considering they all let themselves die with their Leader while the power hungry ones that actually helped the Feds lived to cause hell in Destiny for Cagalli and ORB.

When ORB decided that they were better than everyone else and their Leaders talked down upon the Feds and ZAFT due to their "petty" conflict. The Lion even mentions that ORB is where Naturals and Coordinators are getting along so the war is a stupid race war being run by those that desire power. Despite being "Proud" that their way was right and possibly they never once tried to show the rest of humanity that their way works and that this isn't a pointless race war. Instead ORB refused both sides, chided them, than caused the death of thousands of their own citizens due to foolish pride.

Doing nothing when can stop it is just as horrible as sitting back and watching two people kill each other. ORB's arrogant leaders died due to their pride and the sad thing is that they left Cagalli with no Political leaders left to support her considering they all let themselves die with their Leader while the power hungry ones that actually helped the Feds lived to cause hell in Destiny for Cagalli and ORB.

Of course Uzumi chided both sides. The Earth Forces were run by Blue Cosmo's and ZAFT by a lunatic nut job. Both wanting to go genocidal on each other. Now how would Orb supporting either side show that there way was right? Plus, how does going to war show that your way is right? Show that Orb's naturals and coordinators can work together to kill the enemy?

Sitting back and not get involved is perfectly fine when it deals with two independent countries. Fact of life is that there are countries that oppress their citizens. It's not any other countries job to go and free them. If you're going to say it is wrong that Orb stayed out of the war when it was clear both sides were going genocidal, you may have me in agreement with you. But, it was perfectly acceptable for Orb to stay out of the war earlier in the series because it was simply that, a war.

Before you bring up the Bloody Valentine, ZAFT did a pretty bad thing as well in response to that with the N-Jammers. Not only did it make nuclear weapons useless, it screwed up the whole Earth causing power issues, etc on innocent civilians.

When two different groups of people are slaughtering each other, having a nation where both said groups can look at everyone else and say "We're getting along fine" is pretty much the exact way to show everyone else how you can get along.

Getting involved on the other hand would basically ruin that. It's not like everything was always EAs fault, and Zaft was just an innocent victim fighting in self defense.
Zaft could have just set up the N Jammers to prevent more nukes and left it at that. Instead they crippled the earth and set up a massive campaign of war against it, almost solely for vengance purposes as they were no longer in danger. Although EA fired the first shot (and it was a splinter group at that), Zaft was pretty much the aggressor for the rest of the war up till Azrael took control (against the rank and file EA people, who were not BC aligned and didn't support the Bloody Valentine)

Orb could not honestly involve itself in that conflict and believe itself just.

Maybe because ZAFT actually had Leaders in power that didn't want to support a race war and just wanted the Feds to stop trying to kill them? You know, the ones in charge before the Warmongers stole power under their noses as the war heated up?

Quote:

Originally Posted by quagmire

Of course Uzumi chided both sides. The Earth Forces were run by Blue Cosmo's and ZAFT by a lunatic nut job. Both wanting to go genocidal on each other. Now how would Orb supporting either side show that there way was right? Plus, how does going to war show that your way is right? Show that Orb's naturals and coordinators can work together to kill the enemy?

Sitting back and not get involved is perfectly fine when it deals with two independent countries. Fact of life is that there are countries that oppress their citizens. It's not any other countries job to go and free them. If you're going to say it is wrong that Orb stayed out of the war when it was clear both sides were going genocidal, you may have me in agreement with you. But, it was perfectly acceptable for Orb to stay out of the war earlier in the series because it was simply that, a war.

Before you bring up the Bloody Valentine, ZAFT did a pretty bad thing as well in response to that with the N-Jammers. Not only did it make nuclear weapons useless, it screwed up the whole Earth causing power issues, etc on innocent civilians.

ZAFT wasn't run by a lunatic the whole time, ORB has plenty of chances to open up and show support for the Peacekeeping leaders that wanted to end the war on a good note. ORB chose to do nothing and the real lunatics finally took over ZAFT because passions were high due to many recent events.

ORB should have gotten involved because they believed their way was the best. They didn't even have to fight, all they had to do is show the rest of humanity that peaceful coexistence is possible. Instead ORB closed themselves off while sipping their fine wine and thinking they were the only right ones and everyone was either too stupid or petty for not following their example despite everything that had happened.

Power Issues are nothing compared to an entire civilian colony being nuked to oblivion. The N-Jammers also protected Earth from Nukes as well, ZAFT only did it out of self-defense which ended up protecting the Naturals as well.

Maybe because ZAFT actually had Leaders in power that didn't want to support a race war and just wanted the Feds to stop trying to kill them? You know, the ones in charge before the Warmongers stole power under their noses as the war heated up?

ZAFT wasn't run by a lunatic the whole time, ORB has plenty of chances to open up and show support for the Peacekeeping leaders that wanted to end the war on a good note. ORB chose to do nothing and the real lunatics finally took over ZAFT because passions were high due to many recent events.

ORB should have gotten involved because they believed their way was the best. They didn't even have to fight, all they had to do is show the rest of humanity that peaceful coexistence is possible. Instead ORB closed themselves off while sipping their fine wine and thinking they were the only right ones and everyone was either too stupid or petty for not following their example despite everything that had happened.

Power Issues are nothing compared to an entire civilian colony being nuked to oblivion. The N-Jammers also protected Earth from Nukes as well, ZAFT only did it out of self-defense which ended up protecting the Naturals as well.

So what should Orb have done when ZAFT got taken over by the lunatics if they aligned themselves with ZAFT at first? They would have had both the Earth Forces and ZAFT to defend themselves from.

So getting involved in a war is showing others peaceful co-existance is possible..... That's great logic..... Not getting involved and showing how coordinators and naturals could co-exist was the best way to do it.

Oh yeah I am sure the civilians of Earth love ZAFT from preventing themselves to nuke the Earth..... Tell that to the people that were suffering due to the N-Jammers. Causing civilians to suffer is just about the same as nuking them.

The foreign policy you would have Orb take on is one of hypocrisy. " Our way is the right way.... Oh don't like it? We'll just bomb the crap out of you now"......

Plus as mentioned, early on, Orb did not have the power to get involved. The entire reason some families of Orb agreed to help EA make the Gundams was because without that data to help make the Astrays they'd be totally powerless if EA or Zaft decided to make a move on them. And it still wasn't enough to resist EA.

Allying with Zaft early on would be sucide. They'd be allying with a nation in space, far far away to help them much against the enemies they just made that literally sorounded them.

Plus as mentioned Zaft was always vengeful agreessors once the war started. They might not have gotten total genocide, but Zaft never really had a long term goal besides "Make the naturals pay" which isn't really a good reason for Orb to ally with them.

The entire point of the Seed war is that nobody is really totally just or evil. EA is a nation of mostly good soldiers at first, controlled in the shadows by some genocidal lunatics, while Zaft is a nation that was genuinely wronged, but was running entirely on anger and vengence and was basically launching an aggressive compaign to take out their anger and make themselves feel better.

It's not as simple as "EA is evil, and Zaft is good until Zala took over. Everyone should side with Zaft and fight EA"

ZAFT wasn't run by a lunatic the whole time, ORB has plenty of chances to open up and show support for the Peacekeeping leaders that wanted to end the war on a good note. ORB chose to do nothing and the real lunatics finally took over ZAFT because passions were high due to many recent events.

ORB should have gotten involved because they believed their way was the best. They didn't even have to fight, all they had to do is show the rest of humanity that peaceful coexistence is possible. Instead ORB closed themselves off while sipping their fine wine and thinking they were the only right ones and everyone was either too stupid or petty for not following their example despite everything that had happened.

Power Issues are nothing compared to an entire civilian colony being nuked to oblivion. The N-Jammers also protected Earth from Nukes as well, ZAFT only did it out of self-defense which ended up protecting the Naturals as well.

Yet again you are ignoring the dynamics of foreign and domestic policy. It is nearly impossible for a country to influence the domestic policy of another state unless it has the material, impetus and political willpower. In what way would Orb's support strengthen Clyne's clout within the PLANT government, you need to substantiate it!

Again you fail to address my points of argument. Why do you keep insisting that Orb was apathetic to the conflict?

It also appears that you are biased towards ZAFT. They could drop N-Jammers for self-defence, at the expense of billions of people still living on Earth who has got their power and hence livelihood cut off for them. Didn't side material say that the economy was exhausted precisely because of the N-Jammers? How do you justify this? On the other hand, I can also say that the AF nuked the PLANTs for self-defence - a simple war tactic; preempting the enemy's attacks by launching a devastating blow on its infrastructure and their morale. The way it is portrayed in the show might be biased as well. True, millions of coordinators were nuked in an instance, but millions more Naturals were made to suffer a slow and painful death thanks to the N-Jammers. And I can well say that Blue Cosmos rose to power in the wake of what Naturals believed to be sheer Coordinator arrogance and evil.

Why would ORB involve itself in any of that? It's a nation that does not attack other nations, it only defends itself and its ideals. Both Naturals and Coordinators live in ORB because of that. They don't want to fight a war, they want peace, thats what ORB gives them.

If ORB attacked other nations (Like you want them too, Destined_Fate), it wouldnt be a nation of coordinators and naturals, it'd be either naturals or Coordinators, and then ORB as we've been shown would not exist because it would serve no purpose at all.

"Orb will not attack another nation, will not allow another nation to attack them, and will not intervene in the conflicts of other nations." – Motto of Orb

Them attacking other nations would be like a democracy led by a single government, like North Korea for example.

No I am not, ORB was an arrogant isolationist country that chided both sides and didn't bother to try and show the rest of humanity their way. They were content thinking they were hot stuff, building WMDs(Mobile Suits and Gundams), and the such. ORB seemed to feel very strongly against the War yet what did they do to try and end it? Nothing at all. The only ones that seemed to care are those that helped to secretly build the Gundams and even than their care was just for profits and not about the War.

ZAFT could have done far more than just power shortages, they had the means to strike back far harder than the nuking they had received. Instead they decided on the N-Jammers for humanities sake and to also cripple the Feds so that they would have less means to attack them. ZAFT didn't predict that the Feds were almost already lost to Logos/Blue Cosmos at that point who used this to foster a race war that ZAFT never wanted.

Yes it would, you are failing to understand my point. Had ORB allied with ZAFT after they were unjustly nuked than it would have shown that not all Naturals support the nuking and give a sign of unity against monstrous acts. Instead they again did nothing and left ZAFT to believe that all Naturals were jealous and wanted them dead. Of course it's natural since ORB loves to procrastinate and only cares to act when they're being invaded and it's too late.

That ORB motto fails considering that their leaders let the Feds invade them in SEED and ZAFT to invade them in Destiny. Both times ORB was reduced to ruins. Or the fact that ORB outright attacks ZAFT in Destiny with no protests at all and still attacked even when Cagalli showed up.

ORB are hypocrites and fools with too much pride and not enough brains. Considering what happened to everything else that had gone neutral and tried to pretend a War wasn't going on ORB's leaders were too stupid to figure out that if they kept doing what they were doing ZAFT or the Feds would invade them. Even when it happened ORB valued its foolish pride over its own people and sacrificed thousands, millions of dollars in mobile suits, their country, and so much more because they refused aid even though ZAFT coming to help would have saved ORB. Leaders such as ORBs are the worst kind that value their own pride over what is best for their people or humanity as a whole. What's worse is that all the somewhat competent Leaders died with their arrogant Leader and left only the power hungry ones behind to manipulate an unprepared Cagalli in Destiny. Of course ORB was never good when it came to foresight.

No I am not, ORB was an arrogant isolationist country that chided both sides and didn't bother to try and show the rest of humanity their way. They were content thinking they were hot stuff, building WMDs(Mobile Suits and Gundams), and the such. ORB seemed to feel very strongly against the War yet what did they do to try and end it? Nothing at all. The only ones that seemed to care are those that helped to secretly build the Gundams and even than their care was just for profits and not about the War.

ZAFT could have done far more than just power shortages, they had the means to strike back far harder than the nuking they had received. Instead they decided on the N-Jammers for humanities sake and to also cripple the Feds so that they would have less means to attack them. ZAFT didn't predict that the Feds were almost already lost to Logos/Blue Cosmos at that point who used this to foster a race war that ZAFT never wanted.

Yes it would, you are failing to understand my point. Had ORB allied with ZAFT after they were unjustly nuked than it would have shown that not all Naturals support the nuking and give a sign of unity against monstrous acts. Instead they again did nothing and left ZAFT to believe that all Naturals were jealous and wanted them dead. Of course it's natural since ORB loves to procrastinate and only cares to act when they're being invaded and it's too late.

That ORB motto fails considering that their leaders let the Feds invade them in SEED and ZAFT to invade them in Destiny. Both times ORB was reduced to ruins. Or the fact that ORB outright attacks ZAFT in Destiny with no protests at all and still attacked even when Cagalli showed up.

ORB are hypocrites and fools with too much pride and not enough brains. Considering what happened to everything else that had gone neutral and tried to pretend a War wasn't going on ORB's leaders were too stupid to figure out that if they kept doing what they were doing ZAFT or the Feds would invade them. Even when it happened ORB valued its foolish pride over its own people and sacrificed thousands, millions of dollars in mobile suits, their country, and so much more because they refused aid even though ZAFT coming to help would have saved ORB. Leaders such as ORBs are the worst kind that value their own pride over what is best for their people of humanity as a whole. What's worse is that all the somewhat competent Leaders died with their arrogant Leader and left only the power hungry ones behind to manipulate an unprepared Cagalli in Destiny.

Ok, now this is getting ridiculous. Your comments are so hell-bent on stressing that ORB government are a bunch of idiots for upholding the very principles that made their country prosper and able to maintain its order for so long?

Also, how come you blame ORB's government for their invader's fault?

ORB already and clearly showed their way-of-life to the world by naturals & coordinators living in harmony within their country. It's just Blue Cosmos & Patrick Zala's ZAFT who's hell-bent on genocide.

I clearly don't want to repeat this topic again since I already discuss it with monster long ago. Both of us are able to reach agreement and conclusion since we're both open-minded and not biased on this matter.

No I am not, ORB was an arrogant isolationist country that chided both sides and didn't bother to try and show the rest of humanity their way. They were content thinking they were hot stuff, building WMDs(Mobile Suits and Gundams), and the such. ORB seemed to feel very strongly against the War yet what did they do to try and end it?

There is nothing wrong to be able to defend your home, or in this case, there is nothing wrong with ORB wanting to defend their own country.

Also, there is also nothing wrong with staying out of war, at all. infact it's stupid to participate in a war just " because we can "

i'll repeat it again: "Orb will not attack another nation, will not allow another nation to attack them, and will not intervene in the conflicts of other nations." – Motto of Orb

and add:

" Because of Orb's relative political and economic stability and stance as a neutral nation, it is known as the "Land of Peace."

Yes it would, you are failing to understand my point. Had ORB allied with ZAFT after they were unjustly nuked than it would have shown that not all Naturals support the nuking and give a sign of unity against monstrous acts. Instead they again did nothing and left ZAFT to believe that all Naturals were jealous and wanted them dead. Of course it's natural since ORB loves to procrastinate and only cares to act when they're being invaded and it's too late.

You seem to love the idea of an alliance between ZAFT and Orb very much. It's as if Orb's foray into PLANT politics could change the power balance between the extremists and the more liberal-minded in the PLANT government. No it will not. First it was discovered that Orb harboured an AF project, despite their friendship with the PLANTs. This would have dented their friendship a lot, what's more for some untenable alliance? Second so what if some Naturals in Orb are peace-loving, the majority of Naturals are out for Coordinator blood, or at least resentful of Coordinator dominance and superiority. This doesn't change the perception (however manipulated it is) that most Naturals would die to kill a Coordinator, hence justifying an outwardly anti-Natural policy back in the PLANTs.

Maybe because ZAFT didn't start the wars and was innocent? Each war was started because of the Feds. ZAFT has almost always been on defensive and fighting to weaken the Feds so they will stop trying to wipe them out. It wasn't until later that the Fanatics finally stole power which was mid season SEED. By the end of SEED they were all dead and Durandal had to work hard to play "the nice guy" role to convince the more peaceful council into believing they were doing the right thing.

You aren't understanding a thing I said. ORB prided itself for its unity yet at the same time they closed themselves from the rest of humanity and arrogantly chided both sides. All they had to do was join forces with ZAFT right after the nuking and the Coordinators wouldn't have felt like it was either them or us. After all, outside ORB all the Naturals feared and supported the heinous attacks on ZAFT because they were different.

It isn't even a tactical issue since ZAFT quickly made Mobile Suits and was dominating the Feds at all fronts when they seriously started fighting back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Znozzy

There is nothing wrong to be able to defend your home, or in this case, there is nothing wrong with ORB wanting to defend their own country.

Also, there is also nothing wrong with staying out of war, at all. infact it's stupid to participate in a war just " because we can "

i'll repeat it again: "Orb will not attack another nation, will not allow another nation to attack them, and will not intervene in the conflicts of other nations." – Motto of Orb

and add:

" Because of Orb's relative political and economic stability and stance as a neutral nation, it is known as the "Land of Peace."

Land of Peace

" why wont it go to war? "

Yet ORB helped build the Gundams and mass produced WMDs, Astrays, when Mobile Suits were to next biggest things after nukes which are blocked out due to N-Jammers. Again, ORB is full of hypocrites. They should have expected either side would look for any excuse to take what they had and the other to try and get ORB to join them.

Yet ORB helped build the Gundams and mass produced WMDs, Astrays, when Mobile Suits were to next biggest things after nukes which are blocked out due to N-Jammers. Again, ORB is full of hypocrites. They should have expected either side would look for any excuse to take what they had and the other to try and get ORB to join them.

ORB Never made WMD's, stop making things up. It's getting silly

Rogue orb group =/= Entire orb union. It's like saying everyone in the middle east are terrorists because of 9/11, it's silly and irratic - stop that.

the Astrays was built from stolen data from the EA. Yes, that is bad and stupid aswell. Shitty plot. moving on.

Yes, they needed to be prepared incase the EA or Zaft tried to come and " take what they had " that's why they didn't ally up with either side and built the Astrays. They are a tiny nation of peace and do not want to join up in a silly war between two races.

Also, lets say if Orb joined either side:

If ORB joined Zaft:
one nation on earth backing up people living in space, they would get destroyed pretty much instantly by the EA. Why? Because they have a mass driver, i highly doubt Naturals would have a easy life with all the anti natural hate at the Plants during the war.

If ORB joined EA:
Coordinator's would get killed off. Orb would fall to Zaft if they where to attack, the country would be used for its mass driver and end up getting attacked because it had one.

Conclusion: ORB did the right thing by staying out of the war for as long as they did, their nation would suffer and their population would get killed off if they joined either side.