Laslo Merriwether here. I've driven this 2001 Green Toyota Corolla over from"Assembly Free" to this thread since it is one of the most active at this pointin time. I apologize to the owner. I was very hungry and ate the Whopper thatwas on the passenger seat. No one has claimed the car so far. There are twosets of identification in the glove compartment, so it's possible that the personis an anonymous poster. Please claim the car if it's yours.

Here is what I think is a big hint with regard to your reference to the senses.General revelation is to the senses, what Special revelation is to the spirit.In other words, you would have great difficulty describing to me what "spiritual senses" are.Now I am really starting to get mystical... Verne

You've got this one wrong. General revelation comes through the creation of the world and man. Special revelation came through the inspiration of the scriptures and the incarnation of the Word. Check any systematic theology.

Special revelation is apprehended through the senses as well:

1. I John 1:1, "That which was from the beginning, which we have HEARD, which we have SEEN...LOOKED AT...TOUCHED..."

2. 2 Peter 1:16, "...but we were EYEWITNESSES of his majesty."

3. John 20:31, "...but these are WRITTEN that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."

It is true that Peter was shown this fact by the Father. But we can just open the book and read it! With our eyes and mind! The presence of saving grace makes it possible for us to believe it. But anyone who can read English, (in this case) can read and understand what this particular portion of special revelation is saying.

It is true that I would have difficulty describing to you what "spiritual senses" are. I am not aware that special revelation gives such a description. Are you?Blessings,

Using the verses Tom quoted, there were many that heard and saw and touched and were eyewitnesses that did not recognize Him as their Savior.

I studied the gospels as part of my curriculum in High School. I knew the Life of Christ, his journeys, miracles and sayings, like the back of my hand, but I did not know Him as my Savior until 8 years after graduation.

It was like the light come on when I eventually heard the gospel message. It is not just a matter of academics.

"Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly" Yes there is a need to know God's Word, to be kept by it, to love and obey.

I'm not going to bother praying anymore. No words, nothing concrete, no senses, sounds like mysticism to me.

Not to me. I see prayer as a demonstration of our dependence upon God. As we ask, we take our rightful place before Him and depend upon Him to do what we are unable to do for ourselves. Further, Jesus promises a kind of cause-and-effect relationship between asking and receiving though in my experience it generally happens in unpredictable ways. I'm not sure how your statement relates to Tom's point.

I studied the gospels as part of my curriculum in High School. I knew the Life of Christ, his journeys, miracles and sayings, like the back of my hand, but I did not know Him as my Savior until 8 years after graduation.

It was like the light come on when I eventually heard the gospel message. It is not just a matter of academics.

It is true that Peter was shown this fact by the Father. But we can just open the book and read it! With our eyes and mind! The presence of saving grace makes it possible for us to believe it. But anyone who can read English, (in this case) can read and understand what this particular portion of special revelation is saying.

Using the verses Tom quoted, there were many that heard and saw and touched and were eyewitnesses that did not recognize Him as their Savior.

I studied the gospels as part of my curriculum in High School. I knew the Life of Christ, his journeys, miracles and sayings, like the back of my hand, but I did not know Him as my Savior until 8 years after graduation.

It was like the light come on when I eventually heard the gospel message. It is not just a matter of academics.

"Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly" Yes there is a need to know God's Word, to be kept by it, to love and obey.

Marcia

Marcia,

If you will re-read my post, you will see that I did not make the claim that it was just a matter of academics. I specifically said that grace must enable our faculty of faith. But there must be something to believe. How did you get the information?

Did it come through hearing with your ears or seeing with your eyes? Was it innate, something you were born with? Or did you receive the information by some non-sensible means?

I don't know of any other alternatives. Do you? If so, say so.

All I am addressing here is the means by which revelation is communicated to us. If you, or anyone else, can show where the scriptures teach a direct, non-mediated, ie, mystical revelation at the personal level, please do so.

It is far wiser that we should believe what is actually true, rather than hoping truth will conform itself to what we want it to be. If I am wrong, I am wrong. However, rather than simply being annoyed with the messenger, it would be far more effecient to show that we actually do/i] receive mystical, personal revelation.

I was looking in the phone book the other day and found this person named Jesus Hosanna. I looked at the name and it drew me into the page. I thought I should call Him but didn't know what to say. I showed it to my friend who is always so inspiring to me and he said "Ask and you shall receive. Just call this guy Jesus up and tell him you would like to meet and go for coffee. He is the same person I talked to and inspired me to be how I am today. Like you I was just going through the phone book and WOW a light came on. I called Bell about it and they said they were not aware that this guy was using their book to influence me and others and said if he is a nuisance we will remove his listing."

Tongue and cheek. I believe that Faith which enables us to respond to God is a gift of God and we all are given sufficient Faith to respond. When we read or hear the Word the gift of Faith gives us hope to believe that what we are reading or hearing is different from reading just any old book but these are indeed the Words of God. This is how God reveals to us and is revelation. The revelation of John at Patmos was founded on an existing relationship with the Lord. The sheep hear and know the voice of God and if you don't know Him then it is a crap shoot. Who knows maybe that warm feeling is the meal I had or some chemical reaction in my system or an emotional high from music or something else I enjoy. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word. The Words of text are not it but reading what God says He is able to use the thoughts and expressions printed on paper or computer screens by His Holy Spirit to bring something to life. He is afterall not like us but is in fact God Almighty so while we can't understand it that does not negate it.

The Words of text are not it but reading what God says He is able to use the thoughts and expressions printed on paper or computer screens by His Holy Spirit to bring something to life. He is afterall not like us but is in fact God Almighty so while we can't understand it that does not negate it.

Hugh.

I hear a question. When does the the Word that is pulled off the page become Life in the soul?

He IS the Word...the Word of Life. To the extent that the Word reveals WHO HE IS, it is full of Life and Nourishment - through faith (believing what is read/heard). To the extent that the revelation of WHO HE IS is seen and received due to desperate need, Life is born in the soul.

As the dry ground needs water to come alive, so the ground of the soul needs to drink. The realization or revelation of one's own human depravity and need is therefore always ground zero for God. No need, no filling. Only empty vessels can be filled. Only THAT GROUND can receive the Life of God - and that based upon revelation or the revealing of WHO HE IS. Hand and glove. Marriage.

Reading, Writing, Arithmetic is the vehicle that instructs the brain and allows man to take written truths off the page - through the senses. The human senses can only use correspondences of what the cognition (brain) takes in to arrive at what is being described. God is like a _______________. We say, Oh, yes, I "see" AND I RECEIVE WHAT I SEE INTO MY SPIRIT. Voila! Conversion of Matter (human cognition) into Life.... the conversion of cognition into living revelation.

We know nothing apart from relationship to something else. The building blocks of human knowledge of nature and concepts bring us to the possibility of revelation of God since we cannot understand God who is Spirit except through correspondances.

Still, without a sense of depravity and need, the information is simply that and will be passed up as non-sense or as non-essential.

I hear a question. When does the the Word that is pulled off the page become Life in the soul?

He IS the Word...the Word of Life. To the extent that the Word reveals WHO HE IS, it is full of Life and Nourishment - through faith (believing what is read/heard). To the extent that the revelation of WHO HE IS is seen and received due to desperate need, Life is born in the soul.

As the dry ground needs water to come alive, so the ground of the soul needs to drink. The realization or revelation of one's own human depravity and need is therefore always ground zero for God. No need, no filling. Only empty vessels can be filled. Only THAT GROUND can receive the Life of God - and that based upon revelation or the revealing of WHO HE IS. Hand and glove. Marriage.

Reading, Writing, Arithmetic is the vehicle that instructs the brain and allows man to take written truths off the page - through the senses. The human senses can only use correspondences of what the cognition (brain) takes in to arrive at what is being described. God is like a _______________. We say, Oh, yes, I "see" AND I RECEIVE WHAT I SEE INTO MY SPIRIT. Voila! Conversion of Matter (human cognition) into Life.... the conversion of cognition into living revelation.

At this moment, since all men know that God has called them to be conformed to His likeness and character i.e. Goodness and Love, the human Will is addressed. Will I or Won't I - not only adopt the idea of WHO GOD IS, but actually adopt His character as my own? So the Word of God becomes an essential part of the man and lives in him. "I will dwell (live in) in them and walk in them. I will be their God and they will be my people." 2Cor 6:16 We Will and serve what we set our love upon which is higher than the senses. The senses will say, "NO" to God where the heart will say, "YES" because of Love...agape.

We know nothing apart from relationship to something else. The building blocks of human knowledge of nature and concepts bring us to the possibility of revelation of God since we cannot understand God who is Spirit except through correspondances.

Still, without a sense of depravity and need, the information is simply that and will be passed up as non-sense or as non-essential.

Laslo Merriwether here. I've driven this 2001 Green Toyota Corolla over from"Assembly Free" to this thread since it is one of the most active at this pointin time. I apologize to the owner. I was very hungry and ate the Whopper thatwas on the passenger seat. No one has claimed the car so far. There are twosets of identification in the glove compartment, so it's possible that the personis an anonymous poster. Please claim the car if it's yours.

Thank you.

P.S. Moonflower--the car has 51,482 miles on it.

I wish you'd left the car where you found it. Who knows how many will try to claim it now? In fact, it may even be destroyed by all those trying to evacuate an unpleasant situation. There was one bullet-ridden window when I pulled over. How many more are there now?

I suspected that it was mine from the first I saw your ad. Someone spray painted it and turned the lights on when I stopped to get a better look at War & Peace. People will do anything in a desparate situation, even to the point of eating plastic fake hamburgers from Walmart's toy department.

What is really telling, is that I have the registration papers in my purse, so if you found some in the GC........hm.........I don't want to destroy anyone's reputation, so I'll address the issue in this way: Were the initials on the papers in the glove box FS.J.?

And to keep things even more discreet, I'll need to ask another question. How many of the hubcaps were spinners?

You've got this one wrong. General revelation comes through the creation of the world and man. Special revelation came through the inspiration of the scriptures and the incarnation of the Word. Check any systematic theology.

Special revelation is apprehended through the senses as well:

1. I John 1:1, "That which was from the beginning, which we have HEARD, which we have SEEN...LOOKED AT...TOUCHED..."

2. 2 Peter 1:16, "...but we were EYEWITNESSES of his majesty."

3. John 20:31, "...but these are WRITTEN that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."

It is true that Peter was shown this fact by the Father. But we can just open the book and read it! With our eyes and mind! The presence of saving grace makes it possible for us to believe it. But anyone who can read English, (in this case) can read and understand what this particular portion of special revelation is saying.

It is true that I would have difficulty describing to you what "spiritual senses" are. I am not aware that special revelation gives such a description. Are you?Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

You pride yourself on being a logician.While your argument may show that some special revelation comes via sensible means, a point I already conceded, it does nothing to establish that all do...indeed it cannot for it would contradict many examples in the Scripture...Pharoah and Nebuhadnezzar could tell you stories...

. If you, or anyone else, can show where the scriptures teach a direct, non-mediated, ie, mystical revelation at the personal level, please do so.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction, Job 33 14-16

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: Joel 2:28

Tom you never cease to surprise me. You also once contended that Satan does not influence the thoughts and actions of men, and challenged the BB to provide Scriptural evidence to the contrary, which was promptly done.You have yet to admit your error in that regard.You are clearly also mistaken here my friend.What say ye?

Here is a passage of scripture that gives some information about this subject. It is Ezekiel 13:1-11. It is too long to quote the whole thing, but those who are interested in this topic should read it. A few observations:

1. The folks described here are genuine prophets of Israel.

2. They have been prophesying "out of their own imaginations" and "follow their own spirit".

3. This results in "false" visions.

4. The resulting divinations, (reports as to what God is saying) are lies.

5. God is therefore, "against" them. Not the sort of judgement I wish to incur.

I know you are not saying that these points you list apply to any of the Scriptural passages I previously cited.

Quote

This alone is enough to cause me to question what people who say, "God speaks to me" tell me. I do not for a minute deny the possibility of God speaking to a person. Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

I would have been greatly impressed to hear you say:

Verne you were right. The Scriptural passages you supplied clearly showed that my statements and position contending no basis for God's comunicating to men by other than sensible means were in error.

O. K Tom. You win. I loose. I think I have done about as much as I can, or care to...Verne

p.s. here is the rest of the passage in Job regarding the reason why God sometimes employs this method.I was going to share a few real life interesting instances that I knew about since you had asked, but I think it best to let it lie...

...That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man. He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword...

The Apostate George Geftakys presented himself as having apostolic authority, was enabled to excercise authority and control, sometimes ruthlessly, over others, while living a life of extreme defilement and sin, and that for literally decades.He was aided and abetted in this terrible fraud by men, leaders and elders of the flock, who claimed to be men of God.Now clearly there were many things done in the assemblies that did not comport with the plain teaching of Scripture. One example is the designation "leading brothers". Spiritual leadership in the church is committed to the deacons and the elders.I believe many of these "leading brothers" were sincere and able men. So far as I know there were none of them incapable of reading what is plainly written in the Word of God.So with regard to what is generally available to any reader of the instructions plainly written in the Word of God, they stand in a place of disobedience for failing to follow God's instructions as leaders of His flock.The trouble these men will face in God's presence in my view, has less to do with what is generally available to in the written Word, and moire to do with what I contend is God's determination to get His message across by any means necessary!

.If you ingore His general revelation, He will see to it that you get special revelation.

There will eventually be an angel flying in the midst of heaven, declaring the everlasting gospel to those on the earth.

If you ignore His prophets and servants, He Himself will come to realay the message as He did in Son..

If you fail to understand this fundamental principle, you will completly miss the meaning of the following verses:

(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel Romans 2: 13-16

Are we to assume, that for all those years that Geftakys was engaged in his blasphemous conduct, surrounded by all those holy workers and leading brothers, and bringing such unspeakable shame and disgrace to the name of Christ by his secret sins, that God was silent?Are we to assume, that they, having clearly failed to heed the instructions in God's written word, had no other warnings from Him in the form of providence, or conscience?The Christian is in serious trouble who is not sensitive to the leading of the Spirit of God, and I am not talikng about getiing out a concordance and checking to see what the Bible says about a topic.

It is the failure to ultimately, be led by God's Spirit, that led to the tragedy of the assemblies!

In the matters of life and death, "word meanings, grammatical construction, and correct principles of interpretatoin" will avail you little; hearing the voice of the Shepherd will keep you from much sorrow.

The most critical thing that the child of God can learn, is to recognize the voice of his Heavenly Father, whether in the written Word, in the providence of life, or in the stirrings of the conscience.To mainatain and teach others that God does not use all of these means to guide His own, is to misrepresent Him and to mislead his flock.O.K. Now I am done. God bless and keep you all.Verne