I realize we had no chance for pennant but at least we could have gained some respectability but they really rubbed our noses in the dirt...First I know we are hurting without Frank & Maggs but KWs idea of replacement--Joe Borchard & Jamie Burke--Oh yes we had fat-ass, out of shape, injury ridden Everette who tries to steal one base doesnt even have to slide and pulls groin muscle. I like Burke and want him n my team but he is no replacement for Frank, were are you KW?? you should not only be fired they should put you in jail. Why didnt Ozzie argue on the trapped fly Crede hit did he give up?? It was also smart to take out one of our big RBI men and put in Valdez so that he would be the hitter with bases full and one out...I realize Santana is about best pitcher in AL but to just lay down..I lost a lot of respect for OZZIE tonight..Somebody on another thread said they were laughing at us in KY & TENN pretty soon we will be laughed at everywhere.. Im sorry but Im mad................and dont say Im not a true fan I have been to at least 1 SOX game every year since 1945 except 57--59 in USMC and 1966 lived out of state trying to raise family..

Brian26

09-14-2004, 09:51 PM

Ozzie gave up last Tuesday night when we started Valdez at 2nd base after the club had won 6 out of 7.

Some may say Ozzie gave up the day after Hunter plowed over Jamie Burke by his comments to the media.

gosox41

09-15-2004, 07:36 AM

I realize we had no chance for pennant but at least we could have gained some respectability but they really rubbed our noses in the dirt...First I know we are hurting without Frank & Maggs but KWs idea of replacement--Joe Borchard & Jamie Burke--Oh yes we had fat-ass, out of shape, injury ridden Everette who tries to steal one base doesnt even have to slide and pulls groin muscle. I like Burke and want him n my team but he is no replacement for Frank, were are you KW?? you should not only be fired they should put you in jail. Why didnt Ozzie argue on the trapped fly Crede hit did he give up?? It was also smart to take out one of our big RBI men and put in Valdez so that he would be the hitter with bases full and one out...I realize Santana is about best pitcher in AL but to just lay down..I lost a lot of respect for OZZIE tonight..Somebody on another thread said they were laughing at us in KY & TENN pretty soon we will be laughed at everywhere.. Im sorry but Im mad................and dont say Im not a true fan I have been to at least 1 SOX game every year since 1945 except 57--59 in USMC and 1966 lived out of state trying to raise family..
That's the problem. You had respect for Ozzie as a manager to beign with. Respect is earned and not handed out. His constant criticism of players in the papers gets old. His comments after the Torri Hunter collision were iffy at best. The guy should stop talking so much and work on his managing ability. He also needs to speed up the learning curve on his baseball strategy.

Bob

Fungo

09-15-2004, 09:19 AM

Ozzie also needs to start managing the team he has instead of wishing he had other players that fit his style of team. Anyone could manage a team of All-Stars or players that he hand picked, but managing the players you are dealt is how you earn your stripes.

LincolnSquareOz

09-15-2004, 10:21 AM

Using Burke at DH last was another rookie manager blunder for Ozzie. Can anyone honestly justify that decision? Who cares if he was hitting .370...

jshanahanjr

09-15-2004, 10:57 AM

What can you do? The team was cooked when Maggs and Frank went down. What do you suggest he do? Play short again? Who else does he have to DH against Santana with Crazy Carl being out? Bonds could have DH'd and struck out 3 times. Santana makes everbody look bad this year.

BainesHOF

09-15-2004, 11:27 AM

This team showed a lack of fight the entire second half of the season.

Lip Man 1

09-15-2004, 11:44 AM

What's the big deal? Most Sox fans knew this team was done by mid August.

And for an organization that has consistently underperformed since the start of the 2001 season, I have no issue with Ozzie reminding these brain dead, baseball stupid, bufoons about it every single day.

I hope he makes it so miserable for these guys that they either finally 'get it,' or demand to be traded. Considering what they have accomplished it wouldn't be a big loss and would speed up the process of reconstructing this team into the way a good baseball team should be.... pitching, defense, speed, gap hitters and smart baseball players.

Lip

JB98

09-15-2004, 12:11 PM

This team showed a lack of fight the entire second half of the season.
Don't mistake lack of fight for lack of talent. Look at the players we've had batting 5-9 in the order since Frank and Maggs went down. It's a miracle we're still over .500 trotting out Valentin, Crede, Davis and Borchard close to every day. Not a single one of those guys is hitting over .236. All the fight and competitive spirit in the world couldn't have saved this team.

Kilroy

09-15-2004, 01:27 PM

Don't mistake lack of fight for lack of talent. Look at the players we've had batting 5-9 in the order since Frank and Maggs went down. It's a miracle we're still over .500 trotting out Valentin, Crede, Davis and Borchard close to every day. Not a single one of those guys is hitting over .236. All the fight and competitive spirit in the world couldn't have saved this team.
You always see these "the team has quit" threads after a game like that. It's never that the pitcher is any good or even just had a good outing, only that the manager is bad and the players have given up.

JB98

09-15-2004, 06:17 PM

You always see these "the team has quit" threads after a game like that. It's never that the pitcher is any good or even just had a good outing, only that the manager is bad and the players have given up.

I personally am sick and tired of these "the team has quit" and "the team has no heart" threads. Clearly, the White Sox are just a mediocre team. Their record reflects that. I don't think they are underachieving at all. Our roster is full of holes. Did people really expect a division title from this team? If so, it's their own fault.

fuzzy_patters

09-15-2004, 07:06 PM

I personally am sick and tired of these "the team has quit" and "the team has no heart" threads. Clearly, the White Sox are just a mediocre team. Their record reflects that. I don't think they are underachieving at all. Our roster is full of holes. Did people really expect a division title from this team? If so, it's their own fault.
Good point. When you look at the Sox roster compared to the Indians roster, it is hard to figure out how the Sox are ahead of them. Both teams have some good but inconsistent starting pitchers. Cleveland has Wickman and Howry, but they do not have a very good front end of the pen. The Sox have Marte and Shingo without a very good front end. The Indians have arguably the best offense in the AL while the Sox lineup includes Joe Borchard and Joe Crede at power positions. The fact that the Sox are ahead of a team with more talent just shows that they have played with a lot of heart. The problem is that the Twins have heart and talent, so the Sox have no chance of beating them.

OurBitchinMinny

09-15-2004, 08:44 PM

Ozzie gave up last Tuesday night when we started Valdez at 2nd base after the club had won 6 out of 7.

Some may say Ozzie gave up the day after Hunter plowed over Jamie Burke by his comments to the media.
ozzie gave up when he praised hunter for that dive into burke in the fateful sweep at comiskey. At least KW tried to replace the injuries. But when more than half the team quits whats the point? I only find fault with two things KW did. 1 hire ozzie and 2 not trade that slack jawed yokel borchard when he could have got something for him. Id trade him for a bag of batting practice balls now. And wed be ripping off the other team

OurBitchinMinny

09-15-2004, 08:48 PM

I personally am sick and tired of these "the team has quit" and "the team has no heart" threads. Clearly, the White Sox are just a mediocre team. Their record reflects that. I don't think they are underachieving at all. Our roster is full of holes. Did people really expect a division title from this team? If so, it's their own fault.
I expected them to be in it and win it if frank and maggs didnt go down. Or if they had a competent manager. I never thought Id want manuel back. Once frank and maggs went down I knew the odds were against us. Then cleveland got hot and pulled w/in 1 game and we were within 4. Then for whatever reason this team quit. Their ineptness vs detroit is mind boggling. They suck on the west coast. They should at least be within 5 games of the twins because the twins arent that good. They have one awesome pitcer and one decent pitcher. They are not great team as whoever they lose to in the playoffs will prove. And after this year its clevelands divison

bj'sforTorii

09-15-2004, 09:01 PM

I expected them to be in it and win it if frank and maggs didnt go down. Or if they had a competent manager. I never thought Id want manuel back. Once frank and maggs went down I knew the odds were against us. Then cleveland got hot and pulled w/in 1 game and we were within 4. Then for whatever reason this team quit. Their ineptness vs detroit is mind boggling. They suck on the west coast. They should at least be within 5 games of the twins because the twins arent that good. They have one awesome pitcer and one decent pitcher. They are not great team as whoever they lose to in the playoffs will prove. And after this year its clevelands divison
You may as well be a member of the Sox. Nobody gives the Twins any respect, but they will not be losing much if anything next year, so we may as well get better, instead of hoping they come back to reality because 3 years in a row, is reality.

WhSox30

09-15-2004, 09:10 PM

Did anybody see when Juan Uribe scored on Joe Crede's hit Ozzie did not even get off the bench to congratulate him. I think Ozzie is more pissed about the team losing more than the fans.

JB98

09-15-2004, 09:28 PM

I expected them to be in it and win it if frank and maggs didnt go down. Or if they had a competent manager. I never thought Id want manuel back. Once frank and maggs went down I knew the odds were against us. Then cleveland got hot and pulled w/in 1 game and we were within 4. Then for whatever reason this team quit. Their ineptness vs detroit is mind boggling. They suck on the west coast. They should at least be within 5 games of the twins because the twins arent that good. They have one awesome pitcer and one decent pitcher. They are not great team as whoever they lose to in the playoffs will prove. And after this year its clevelands divison

You and I are going to have to agree to disagree. This team had NO CHANCE in my opinion from the moment Frank and Maggs went down. No manager could have guided this team to the playoffs, and there's no way in hell I'd take Manuel over Guillen. Has Ozzie made some mistakes? You bet, but I don't think he is the reason for the Sox demise.

Look at this roster. Timo Perez is a nice bench player, but he's had to be the starting RF for much of the second half. Crede is a huge disappointment. Valentin hasn't homered since Aug. 9, and he's hitting around .150 since the break. Willie Harris isn't very good. Uribe is streaky. Our catching situation is mediocre. We have only one healthy, reliable starting pitcher (Buerhle). We have only two good relief pitchers, and not surprisingly, both Marte and Shingo started to wear down in the second half. I believe these holes would have cost us the division EVEN IF FRANK AND MAGGS WERE HEALTHY. When you consider all these factors, is it really a big surprise that we are only a .500 team? I say no.

As for the Twins, they've won eight in a row. They're a good baseball team, and you have to give credit where credit is due. To suggest that we should be within five games of them is baloney from my perspective. The Sox were a much stronger team last year, and they STILL finished four games back. Essentially, you're asking a MUCH, MUCH WEAKER 2004 White Sox team to stay that close, and it's just not realistic.

Dub25

09-15-2004, 10:47 PM

I expected them to be in it and win it if frank and maggs didnt go down. Or if they had a competent manager. I never thought Id want manuel back. Once frank and maggs went down I knew the odds were against us. Then cleveland got hot and pulled w/in 1 game and we were within 4. Then for whatever reason this team quit. Their ineptness vs detroit is mind boggling. They suck on the west coast. They should at least be within 5 games of the twins because the twins arent that good. They have one awesome pitcer and one decent pitcher. They are not great team as whoever they lose to in the playoffs will prove. And after this year its clevelands divison
This makes a lot of sense. You don't like Ozzie and you want Manual back. You point out they suck vs. Detroit and on the west coast. Didn't those things happen under the guidance of Jerry Manual? Yes, they did. Haven't the Twins had the same makeup that last three years? The Sox still could not beat them. Yet you want Manual back. Maybe it is the core of the players that can't get it done. Manual or Ozzie take your pick but this group is headed for the same 81-81(give or take a few games)finish they have had the last 3 seasons. And the fact they have held their heads above water without Frank or Maggs must say something about Ozzie that it does for Manual.

OurBitchinMinny

09-16-2004, 01:55 AM

You may as well be a member of the Sox. Nobody gives the Twins any respect, but they will not be losing much if anything next year, so we may as well get better, instead of hoping they come back to reality because 3 years in a row, is reality.
I guarantee you i know more about the twins than you do. I live in the twin cities I see and hear abou them almost everyday. You see them go on winning streaks against the crap teams, but when they have to play a good team, they turn into a crap team. The twins will do nothing in the playoffs. There rotation includes kyle lohse and terry mulholland. I give the twins credit for holding off cleveland in their run. Im not gonna give the twins credit for frank and maggs being out. This race would be a whole hell of a lot closer and the rest of the pathetic bunch would not have quit. The reason the sox are not in this is not because of the minnesota twins. They dominated the series up until their starts got hurt. Even now its only 8-7 twins and theyve won the last 5. The sox are inept against the tigers and indians for whatever reason. And the entire west coast. Im not saying the sox would have won the division for sure, but no one seems to remember that the sox have been w/o their 3-4 hitters for the last 2 months...and on and off all season. Twins will NOT DO ANYTHING IN THE PLAYOFFS. Take it to the bank

OurBitchinMinny

09-16-2004, 02:03 AM

This makes a lot of sense. You don't like Ozzie and you want Manual back. You point out they suck vs. Detroit and on the west coast. Didn't those things happen under the guidance of Jerry Manual? Yes, they did. Haven't the Twins had the same makeup that last three years? The Sox still could not beat them. Yet you want Manual back. Maybe it is the core of the players that can't get it done. Manual or Ozzie take your pick but this group is headed for the same 81-81(give or take a few games)finish they have had the last 3 seasons. And the fact they have held their heads above water without Frank or Maggs must say something about Ozzie that it does for Manual.
when did i say i wanted manuel back? Given a choice between the two id take manuel. I wanted them to hire a manager with experience, i.e. hargrove or gaston or anybody. This team was 10-11 games over .500 when those two went down. They are now .500. thats not holding your head above water. Its not like this is a team that is completely incapable. I know a lot of teams who would want a lee or konerko in the middle of their lineup. I never expected them to win the division. I held out hope everett would be better, that delgado would waive his no trade. The difference between the twins and white sox with thomas and ordonez out and some with them in, is #1 bullpen, #2 managing, #3 they have an ace, we dont, but 1-4/5 the sox have a better starting staff, garland isnt great, but ill take him over lohse. Maybe the twins would have won the division if thomas and ordonez were here, but i know the sox wouldnt be 11-12 games out. People act like the twins went out and showed everyone who was boss. Take, i dont even know off the twins....they have no one in their lineup even close to the everyday production of thomas and ordonez. The sox clearly arent as good with those two out, but playing in the al central they should not be 10 games under .500 since those two went out.

TheTwinsWin

09-16-2004, 02:39 AM

:troll

The ChiSoxinMinny, for claiming to know a lot about the Twins, knows very little about Kirby Puckett's sexual habits, like I do.

Soxzilla

09-16-2004, 02:54 AM

...Why are you telling us what we already know. We watch the games. Reading this post is like watching a rerun of full house.

Paulwny

09-16-2004, 08:34 AM

I personally am sick and tired of these "the team has quit" and "the team has no heart" threads. Clearly, the White Sox are just a mediocre team. Their record reflects that. I don't think they are underachieving at all. Our roster is full of holes. Did people really expect a division title from this team? If so, it's their own fault.
Agree, the roster is full of holes. It's similar to looking at Swiss Cheese.

ma-gaga

09-16-2004, 10:59 AM

but when they have to play a good team, they turn into a crap team. The twins will do nothing in the playoffs. There rotation includes kyle lohse and terry mulholland.
...
The sox are inept against the tigers and indians for whatever reason. And the entire west coast.
...
Twins will NOT DO ANYTHING IN THE PLAYOFFS. Take it to the bankThe Twins play well against Oakland, Boston, and based on the 3 games this year, NYY. Anaheim is the only team lurking out there that really really scares me right now. But I don't think they are making the playoffs.

You can't eliminate those teams to justify why the W.Sox haven't won. There's only 14 teams in the American League, you've eliminated 5 of them (plus the W.Sox). If the Twins could eliminate their record against ... Anaheim and Oakland they'd add 3 games to their standings. They've played them tough though. It's not like they've been swept much this year.

You want to put some money down? They've got the best pitcher in the league, and a dominant understated stud in Radke. The rumor is that the Twins are going to have the "cush" playoff schedule that has 1-2 days off per game, which means Santana pitches games 1 and 4, Radke pitches 2 and 5. Silva/Mullholland gets game 3, if Lohse pitches, I'll eat my hat.

They are going to be tough against whomever they face, and it'll probably be the Yankees. If Mussina can pitch, they'll be tough, but I don't know if he can. One game against the D.Rays does not mean "HE'S BACK!".

:gulp:

LincolnSquareOz

09-16-2004, 11:11 AM

The Twins play well against Oakland, Boston, and based on the 3 games this year, NYY. Anaheim is the only team lurking out there that really really scares me right now. But I don't think they are making the playoffs.

You can't eliminate those teams to justify why the W.Sox haven't won. There's only 14 teams in the American League, you've eliminated 5 of them (plus the W.Sox). If the Twins could eliminate their record against ... Anaheim and Oakland they'd add 3 games to their standings. They've played them tough though. It's not like they've been swept much this year.

You want to put some money down? They've got the best pitcher in the league, and a dominant understated stud in Radke. The rumor is that the Twins are going to have the "cush" playoff schedule that has 1-2 days off per game, which means Santana pitches games 1 and 4, Radke pitches 2 and 5. Silva/Mullholland gets game 3, if Lohse pitches, I'll eat my hat.

They are going to be tough against whomever they face, and it'll probably be the Yankees. If Mussina can pitch, they'll be tough, but I don't know if he can. One game against the D.Rays does not mean "HE'S BACK!".

:gulp:

Agreed. You can't really dismiss any team that's got two front-line starters and a very strong bullpen. They'll need it because they won't be outhitting anyone.

jshanahanjr

09-16-2004, 11:21 AM

They may have another divsion title in their grasp, but they still play in a dump! When are they going to blow the Hump Dome up?