I had to go to a lengthy meeting a couple of months back, the thing was fairly close to a couple of Indian casinos that I normally do not consider playing at (games are usually lousy, even the 8d shoes give 50 percent penetration.) Not worth the trouble. But I had some time and decided to hit the 21 tables the first night out to see if anything had changed.

I found a DD game where the auto shuffler was busted, and the dealer was having to shuffle by hand. He was not normally a BJ dealer, but was apparently pressed into service that night due to several other dealers calling in with some sort of virus. As I walked by, I noticed that even though that DD game was always a bare 50% penetration, he was still dealing with less than 1/2 deck left. I sat down to play with one other player (who left shortly after I arrived) and discovered (as he explained) that his hands were very painful in the joints and the shuffling was hurting him, and that if I didn't mind, he would put the shuffle card at the usual place, but he was going to deal way into the deck to reduce the number of shuffles. Shoot, I said, make it as easy on yourself as you want. Deal to the bottom if you like.

Needless to say, the game was profitable, and within about 2 hours I had won just over $1,000. As the session wore on, I was playing exactly with the count, spreading 25-250, and using absolutely no cover. Near the end I noticed a couple of suits looking my way and whispering. I decided to color up and leave as the meeting the next day was early.

I returned the next night, but the 21 tables were void of the dealer I was looking for. I decided to wait around to see if he showed up, and since the pits were arranged where there were always two 21 tables side-by-side, I thought I'd start back-counting two tables at a time when possible and do some wonging while waiting. I didn't win a whole lot, but I noticed that the attention was becoming a bit more serious and it wasn't that long before two suits walked up and gave me the usual "your 21 game is too strong for us, we are not going to let you play 21 any more, but you can play any other games you want. Why don't you try our 3 card poker table over there and they pointed...

Of course that is a suck game, but when I looked, there was "my dealer" so I thought I would at least stop by and chat with him and play a couple of rounds for fun. Turns out he had just as much trouble with that game, in that removing the 3-card hands from the automatic shuffler had him exposing the bottom card for every hand, his included.

Unfortunately, I had never studied 3-card poker strategy when one of the dealer's cards is known very much, but on a couple of AP sites it was discussed at length before 3-card poker nearly faded away. So I started to play. And I won. Not quickly, but at a $10 table, the money adds up fairly quickly, usually in terms of losses. But I was winning, and this went on for about 2hours. I think I was once again up about $600 bucks or so when it became obvious that once again I was under scrutiny. One said "We don't know what you are doing, but we are watching... You had better not be cheating the house." I reminded them "Hey, you guys asked me to stop playing 21 and you even suggested I play 3cp and pointed to this very table... so what are you complaining about now?" He mumbled something and went back to the podium and got on the phone. As the suit count climbed, I decided to leave for the night. Now +1600 and counting.

Next night I go back, and now my favorite dealer is nowhere to be found, not on 21 or 3cp. But I noticed that as I walked around, I developed a "parade of suits". Picked up 2 in the first pit, a third in the second pit, and by the time I had made it around the floor area, I had 5-6 that were looking very concerned, following me from pit to pit. They were actually causing a commotion as they had to maneuver around tables, dealers, players, etc. Remember that they had backed me off 21 so I was not going to play. But apparently they thought I was up to no good after having two good nights in a row. As the "parade" continued, finally two of the grouchier-looking suits came up and said "you are going to have to leave..."

I did. As I motioned to my wife, who was playing slots, she came over and asked "What on earth was that commotion about?" I told her "someone called me Custer and I think they were getting ready to scalp me."

The suit-parade was a priceless image that was beyond ridiculous. My intent was to keep walking around the floor until they had no one left to join the parade... :)

Very interesting story, quite amusing, but just for discussion, if one is playing a fair and square game, how dare someone tell you, if you're winning u cant play?...which means u only have "our permission to lose???" This is a legal issue, and since the bucks involved are huge, what if you hired a couple of lawyers took them along, and along with them legals, co-ordinated with the cops, prevail on the casino, that you cant ban anyone just cuz it suits the house's convenience?? As it is them casinos are making billions! ...apparently wanna use their muscle power to eat their cake and have it too!!!

Very interesting story, quite amusing, but just for discussion, if one is playing a fair and square game, how dare someone tell you, if you're winning u cant play?...which means u only have "our permission to lose???" This is a legal issue, and since the bucks involved are huge, what if you hired a couple of lawyers took them along, and along with them legals, co-ordinated with the cops, prevail on the casino, that you cant ban anyone just cuz it suits the house's convenience?? As it is them casinos are making billions! ...apparently wanna use their muscle power to eat their cake and have it too!!!

Unfortunately casinos are privately owned, and they have the right to refuse service to anyone. They can't do it because of age, or gender, or race, etc, as that would be a federal crime. But they can do it if you win too much. It has happened to me just a few times, it has happened to some in nearly every casino on the planet.

If you play, and count, and are good enough to win more than you lose (which you should) then you will eventually draw unwanted attention unless you play ultra-cautiously. And after drawing attention, you will invite a back-off (or worse). They told me to leave because they probably figured out that I was just trying to irritate them when I was just strolling around the pits with my "loyal fans" following. :)

I can imagine that scene. You just continue walking around with no aim of playing, just seeing how large a following you can accumulate.

Actually it makes sense. They need 6-8 suits to watch a winner, because they do not need anyone else watching the rest of their players and those suits must justify their existance.

ihate17

More paranoia. The game protection systems have convinced the casinos that "those damned card counters" are ripping them off. So the casinos buy the systems (mindplay, BJ voice, RFID chips, etc) and then hire people to use them. And those people have to convince the casino big-wigs that they are indispensable and apparently they have been successful. And I guess they occasionally need to make a big show so that all the pits are aware that the game protection folks are out to stop a thief. :)

I was attempting to win a bet with myself. I thought "I'll bet I can get this parade up to at least 10 before they get pissed enough to take action." I was wrong, I think the last count I had was 7, although I suspect the eye folks were watching as well. The one amusing point is that in Vegas, the "suits" are well-dressed. At this Indian joint, they looked like Indians wearing very poorly tailored Montgomery Ward suits bought at a thrift store. Complete with at least 2-3 ponytails and cowboy boots... :)

What you need to be able to do is take this one little step further. Get your escorts to follow you out of the casino, down the road and somehow find a way where they can not get back into the casino. That might make it more fun for the rest of us.

Yes, casino paranoia is huge. I have posted several times that the key for gaming manufacturers is not that their product has to work (Mindplay does not deliver) but all it has to do to sell is appeal to the two most basic instincts of casino management. Greed and Paranoia.

What you need to be able to do is take this one little step further. Get your escorts to follow you out of the casino, down the road and somehow find a way where they can not get back into the casino. That might make it more fun for the rest of us.

Yes, casino paranoia is huge. I have posted several times that the key for gaming manufacturers is not that their product has to work (Mindplay does not deliver) but all it has to do to sell is appeal to the two most basic instincts of casino management. Greed and Paranoia.

ihate17

I let my wife read your post. She responded "Do you _really_ want a pack of pissed-off indians following you out the casino doors to a dark parking lot?"

I let my wife read your post. She responded "Do you _really_ want a pack of pissed-off indians following you out the casino doors to a dark parking lot?"

After thinking about it, she does have a point. :)

(images of Custer flashing thru mind)...

Forget Custer or Indians. Having had some up close personal contact with casino goons in an area with no cameras, your wife has more than a point.Which also means that you probably should have just left when you first realized what was happening and not let it build.

Forget Custer or Indians. Having had some up close personal contact with casino goons in an area with no cameras, your wife has more than a point.Which also means that you probably should have just left when you first realized what was happening and not let it build.

ihate17

Or thought up a better story to make up before telling it. Let me ask you SSR, are you so notorious that a whole goon squad must be assembled to throw out a red chipper? I don't even think I remember the mit teams getting that much attention. Are you sure this is not another Alex story?

Or thought up a better story to make up before telling it. Let me ask you SSR, are you so notorious that a whole goon squad must be assembled to throw out a red chipper? I don't even think I remember the mit teams getting that much attention. Are you sure this is not another Alex story?

I'm certain it is no kind of "story" in the context you are using. I just reported what happened. I thought it was funny, and thought it would be an interesting read. If you didn't like it, or don't believe it, doesn't matter to me. I've not had too many run-ins with casinos, and plan on keeping it that way. It was not a multi-hour exhibition, it lasted for maybe 10-15 minutes.

As far as the "red-chipper" comment, if you think about the math _just_ a little, perhaps you might guess that to win almost $1000 in an hour would be a bit difficult. And most DD games I encounter today are generally $25. The shoe game was definitely $5 although I was not making min bets but just jumping in on + counts and generally betting $100 a pop as that would be a 20-1 spread had I been playing all. So I was not a high-roller, but certainly produced enough "cheques play" calls to attract attention that I was not really worrying about.

Also, I believe the MIT teams got _far_ more attention that that, if you have any idea of what you are talking about. They had multiple groups that spent more time figuring out who they were and what they were doing than a single indian casino has employees...

Off subject of this thread, but one of the funniest things, in an ironic way, I can remember seeing was on that history channel or whatever show about the MIT team.Here is this Griffin investigator, walking and talking like he is the reincarnation of Sherlock Holmes, bragging about how he took down the MIT team and all I can think about is, "hey Andy Anderson, it only took you 4, yes just FOUR, years to figure out that this was a financed team that was beating your casino members butt". What a moron!

Off subject of this thread, but one of the funniest things, in an ironic way, I can remember seeing was on that history channel or whatever show about the MIT team.Here is this Griffin investigator, walking and talking like he is the reincarnation of Sherlock Holmes, bragging about how he took down the MIT team and all I can think about is, "hey Andy Anderson, it only took you 4, yes just FOUR, years to figure out that this was a financed team that was beating your casino members butt". What a moron!

ihate17

But he convinced the _casinos_ that he knew what he was doing. Ditto for most of the security folks on the various breaking vegas episodes. Like the group that figured out "Hmm.. we have a million dollars more in slot tokens this month than at the end of last month. We must have a counterfeiter in the system. :)

I'm certain it is no kind of "story" in the context you are using. I just reported what happened. I thought it was funny, and thought it would be an interesting read. If you didn't like it, or don't believe it, doesn't matter to me. I've not had too many run-ins with casinos, and plan on keeping it that way. It was not a multi-hour exhibition, it lasted for maybe 10-15 minutes.

As far as the "red-chipper" comment, if you think about the math _just_ a little, perhaps you might guess that to win almost $1000 in an hour would be a bit difficult. And most DD games I encounter today are generally $25. The shoe game was definitely $5 although I was not making min bets but just jumping in on + counts and generally betting $100 a pop as that would be a 20-1 spread had I been playing all. So I was not a high-roller, but certainly produced enough "cheques play" calls to attract attention that I was not really worrying about.

Also, I believe the MIT teams got _far_ more attention that that, if you have any idea of what you are talking about. They had multiple groups that spent more time figuring out who they were and what they were doing than a single indian casino has employees...

I'm sorry this story just doesn't seem legit. Okay if you're not a red chipper you are a small time green chipper. I seriously doubt they would chase around a guy with a gang of suits because he happened to win a grand. Was this a tiny 3 table sweatshop? Because that would probably be the only way they would even care about you, but with all the manpower they were using on you it had to be a larger place. You are telling me you were at a $25 table and getting cheques play called out on you for max bets of $250? Even if you were how many times in that short period of time would you be throwing out max bets. I am skeptical for a few reasons. First if they thought you were that big a threat I think your tossed before they do their version of the keystone cops following you around. Secondly, you are just not a big enough fish to warrant that type of attention. If you get the tap its one thing, after that who cares about a guy who's biggest bet is not even minimum for a lot of players. The level of ones importance to the casino seems to grow faster then their bankroll.

Shame on you ihate17 for buying into this stuff. Its bad for people to believe that casinos will resort to such levels for what amounts to nothing as far as a bottomline to them. I personally have bet similar amounts, occasionally slightly more with no cover at all. Its been almost 3 years now and I have never been backed off, and have won much more than $1000 a few times. Am i just lucky, or am I just honest?

I'm sorry this story just doesn't seem legit. Okay if you're not a red chipper you are a small time green chipper. I seriously doubt they would chase around a guy with a gang of suits because he happened to win a grand. Was this a tiny 3 table sweatshop? Because that would probably be the only way they would even care about you, but with all the manpower they were using on you it had to be a larger place. You are telling me you were at a $25 table and getting cheques play called out on you for max bets of $250? Even if you were how many times in that short period of time would you be throwing out max bets. I am skeptical for a few reasons. First if they thought you were that big a threat I think your tossed before they do their version of the keystone cops following you around. Secondly, you are just not a big enough fish to warrant that type of attention. If you get the tap its one thing, after that who cares about a guy who's biggest bet is not even minimum for a lot of players. The level of ones importance to the casino seems to grow faster then their bankroll.

Shame on you ihate17 for buying into this stuff. Its bad for people to believe that casinos will resort to such levels for what amounts to nothing as far as a bottomline to them. I personally have bet similar amounts, occasionally slightly more with no cover at all. Its been almost 3 years now and I have never been backed off, and have won much more than $1000 a few times. Am i just lucky, or am I just honest?

It was not a "small 3-table sweatshop". It was, as I said, an indian casino that is not known as a high-roller shop.

As I mentioned, my first night saw a nice win on a DD game due to a dealer issue. The second night saw a nice win due to a ton of wonging. Since I had no real intention of going back there (I had been once before, found the playing conditions/rules not very good, and had not been back until I had this meeting close by) I didn't pay much attention to session length or any sort of cover.

This is a place where you can bet $5, and if you increase your bet to $25 you get a "cheques play" call and someone generally walks over and stares for a bit. So yes, if you bet $25 and run your bet to $200 you get a "cheques play". It wasn't in Vegas at Caesar's. They do care about such, apparently. If you haven't seen such a place, you just haven't played enough, particularly at Indian casinos. There seems to be a bit more paranoia at some of these than I have seen at more usual settings like the MS coast or Vegas.

Whether you buy it or not just doesn't matter. Some places are just more paranoid. I was booted from the Barbary 3-4 years ago for flat-betting $25 and winning almost every hand due to luck, for 20-30 minutes. I only have three properties I can not play on, one probably having forgotten since it was blown away by Katrina. What caused the extra attention is unknown. Maybe they were bored (it was reasonably busy but far from packed). Maybe they had some higher-up they wanted to impress. Absolutely no idea, and I don't care to boot...

I have a good friend that posts a lot on ap.com/bj21.com, who got booted spreading $5-$40 on a SD game on the MS coast. So it happens. Not nearly as often as used to be reported, but it still happens.

If you don't think the casinos are paranoid, even at $5 tables, you need to look around. Why do you suppose they go to the expense of renting CSMs? mindplay? RFID? Enough cameras to start a major movie production company? Just because they like the high-tech equipment? I don't think so.

I'm done, you can have the last word. I simply relayed what was to me a silly happening. Not interested in a protracted argument about whether it is fact or fiction... It was simply funny at the time.

BTW, apparently you didn't read the whole thing. I _had_ been backed off from playing 21 after the second winning night. This happened on the 3rd night as I simply walked around the pit area watching the 21 tables scattered around. They were apparently concerned I might try to play after being told not to I would guess. And it seemed to be an issue with my walking around the pits and watching 21 tables after being told to play anything else but no more 21...

The final conversation was short and quick:

"You have to leave. We told you no more 21 last night..."

"I am not playing 21, I haven't sat down at a 21 table since..."

"yes, but you are walking around and standing behind 21 tables, why would you do that if you are not going to play?"

It was not a "small 3-table sweatshop". It was, as I said, an indian casino that is not known as a high-roller shop.

As I mentioned, my first night saw a nice win on a DD game due to a dealer issue. The second night saw a nice win due to a ton of wonging. Since I had no real intention of going back there (I had been once before, found the playing conditions/rules not very good, and had not been back until I had this meeting close by) I didn't pay much attention to session length or any sort of cover.

This is a place where you can bet $5, and if you increase your bet to $25 you get a "cheques play" call and someone generally walks over and stares for a bit. So yes, if you bet $25 and run your bet to $200 you get a "cheques play". It wasn't in Vegas at Caesar's. They do care about such, apparently. If you haven't seen such a place, you just haven't played enough, particularly at Indian casinos. There seems to be a bit more paranoia at some of these than I have seen at more usual settings like the MS coast or Vegas.

Whether you buy it or not just doesn't matter. Some places are just more paranoid. I was booted from the Barbary 3-4 years ago for flat-betting $25 and winning almost every hand due to luck, for 20-30 minutes. I only have three properties I can not play on, one probably having forgotten since it was blown away by Katrina. What caused the extra attention is unknown. Maybe they were bored (it was reasonably busy but far from packed). Maybe they had some higher-up they wanted to impress. Absolutely no idea, and I don't care to boot...

I have a good friend that posts a lot on ap.com/bj21.com, who got booted spreading $5-$40 on a SD game on the MS coast. So it happens. Not nearly as often as used to be reported, but it still happens.

If you don't think the casinos are paranoid, even at $5 tables, you need to look around. Why do you suppose they go to the expense of renting CSMs? mindplay? RFID? Enough cameras to start a major movie production company? Just because they like the high-tech equipment? I don't think so.

I'm done, you can have the last word. I simply relayed what was to me a silly happening. Not interested in a protracted argument about whether it is fact or fiction... It was simply funny at the time.

BTW, apparently you didn't read the whole thing. I _had_ been backed off from playing 21 after the second winning night. This happened on the 3rd night as I simply walked around the pit area watching the 21 tables scattered around. They were apparently concerned I might try to play after being told not to I would guess. And it seemed to be an issue with my walking around the pits and watching 21 tables after being told to play anything else but no more 21...

The final conversation was short and quick:

"You have to leave. We told you no more 21 last night..."

"I am not playing 21, I haven't sat down at a 21 table since..."

"yes, but you are walking around and standing behind 21 tables, why would you do that if you are not going to play?"

"fine, I'm leaving"

and that was it.

and that is the end of the story for me...

Oh I see, now there was a final conversation you happened to leave out of the original story. Thats a textbook backpedal as we like to say in the investigation business. No matter, its your story I'll leave it at that.

But just for your information, CSM's are for speeding up games for higher profits. They were not made for the sole purpose of thwarting counters although they can do just that. Mindplay and RIFD were put into place to automate and moniter comps more efficiently removing human error and bias. Its failing and will not become as widespread as originally thought. And all those cameras in the casino aren't there just for you. The biggest job is to watch employees to make sure they do their job and don't rip off the patrons or more importantly the casino. And to moniter day to day operations because there is millions of dollars moving around the casino at any given time,day or night. If they happen to catch a counter every now and then thats a bonus, but that is not even close to the main focus of their jobs. Just look at a bank, lots of money, lots of cameras.

There are 2 reasons I don't see casinos act like you describe neither is because I don't play enough. First is, your story really isn't true and we both know that. Second, although I haven't been playing as long as some, I don't play places that would treat counters as you describe. I try to play the best games I can. Nice story though.

Oh I see, now there was a final conversation you happened to leave out of the original story. Thats a textbook backpedal as we like to say in the investigation business. No matter, its your story I'll leave it at that.

But just for your information, CSM's are for speeding up games for higher profits. They were not made for the sole purpose of thwarting counters although they can do just that. Mindplay and RIFD were put into place to automate and moniter comps more efficiently removing human error and bias. Its failing and will not become as widespread as originally thought. And all those cameras in the casino aren't there just for you. The biggest job is to watch employees to make sure they do their job and don't rip off the patrons or more importantly the casino. And to moniter day to day operations because there is millions of dollars moving around the casino at any given time,day or night. If they happen to catch a counter every now and then thats a bonus, but that is not even close to the main focus of their jobs. Just look at a bank, lots of money, lots of cameras.

There are 2 reasons I don't see casinos act like you describe neither is because I don't play enough. First is, your story really isn't true and we both know that. Second, although I haven't been playing as long as some, I don't play places that would treat counters as you describe. I try to play the best games I can. Nice story though.

First, can you read? If so, look at the very _end_ of what I wrote in my _first_ post. I reported that they said "you are going to have to leave..." Does that contradict what I said in my previous post you responded to? Do you know what "..." means on the end of a statement? (it means there was more said). The rest of the conversation was not important, didn't have anything to do with the actions I was describing, and so I left it out. If I go back to post 1, and add the rest of that very short conversation, does it change a single thing, or change the meaning, or change the event itself?

So exactly how is that "back-pedaling?"

I also believe I was quite specific when I said "I had no intention of returning there, except that the meeting I went to took me to that area..." So yes, it was a lousy place to play. No I do not normally go to Indian casinos whatsoever. And Yes, I also try to find the best games available. But when I happened to find an advantageous situation with a dealer offering exceptional penetration, yes, I chose to play. And when I saw the problem on the 3CP game, I chose to play that as well. That _is_ what "AP" means, IMHO.

Sometimes you find a diamond in a sh**hole if you look hard enough and long enough.

First, can you read? If so, look at the very _end_ of what I wrote in my _first_ post. I reported that they said "you are going to have to leave..." Does that contradict what I said in my previous post you responded to? Do you know what "..." means on the end of a statement? (it means there was more said). The rest of the conversation was not important, didn't have anything to do with the actions I was describing, and so I left it out. If I go back to post 1, and add the rest of that very short conversation, does it change a single thing, or change the meaning, or change the event itself?

So exactly how is that "back-pedaling?"

I also believe I was quite specific when I said "I had no intention of returning there, except that the meeting I went to took me to that area..." So yes, it was a lousy place to play. No I do not normally go to Indian casinos whatsoever. And Yes, I also try to find the best games available. But when I happened to find an advantageous situation with a dealer offering exceptional penetration, yes, I chose to play. And when I saw the problem on the 3CP game, I chose to play that as well. That _is_ what "AP" means, IMHO.

Sometimes you find a diamond in a sh**hole if you look hard enough and long enough.

methinks one has nothing worthwhile to say, and posts a worthless one-liner as a last resort???

Not quite. I just thought the back and forth was becoming boring. You believe your story and I'll believe what I have gained from what you said. Its pretty obvious to continue debating the content of your fable is going to go nowhere. But I still find it curious a man of your vast experience would believe that the majority of casino surveillance is directed towards counters. That is ludicrous and naive to say the least. Read my post on what its really for as I think it generally refutes your ridiculous claims on casino paranoia on the likes of you. I don't mean to insult you I'm just saying players of your status as well as mine, is not what the casino concerns themselves with. If they did then the real problems like crimes and employee cheating and over zealous comps which actually do effect bottom line figures would be much harder to control due to the hours being taken up deciphering useless info gathered on what amounts to harmless counters. You know as well as anybody a very small % of players can count. And an even smaller % of them can do it right. The casinos know this too, as least the higher ups who run multi million corporations do. They do not care if you take out what amounts to what can be made in less than 30 seconds. And they definitely won't assign a gang of suits to follow someone around who has already been backed off. It only takes one to see you sit down after the backoff to tell you to leave. Dollars and cents man, that what its about.

I didn't say the majority of the resources were directed at stopping APs. I said the majority of their paranoia is directed in that direction. They are paranoid about counters, trackers, hole-carders, spookers, ace-sequencers, dice manipulators, hardware wheel clockers, card markers, etc. Even though some of those are actually cheating and some are not, they consider them all equal.

I had my first back-off at an Indian Casino. No blackjack, but anything else. I was walking pit after back-off and approached by "Suit" and was told to stay out of Pits. He said I was capable of tipping off another player while back-counting a shoe. Made sense so I just never went back. If they did let me continue to walk the Pits I would have had someone a a table that I would signal when count was high.

I agree with Andee, first of all if the dealer was brand new they would be watching him before you even showed up and they would have noticed that he was dealing through the deck. Second off im positive the set shoe penetration is something the dealer would be fired for if caught and I doubt he would want to lose his job and a also be plagued with a bad reference that he was losing the casino money, if he did get fired for that he could forget his entire dealing career. And lastly if your play was being scrutinized that intensely the "suits" would easily notice the dealer ignoring the shuffle card.

An interesting story regardless. Thanks for the entertainment and information. I'm new to this racket and will never be as serious as either of the two major contributors to the thread. (Hell, I'm gonna have to look up half the terms and shorthand they used!)

My meager experience at BJ tables shows that there are more than a few dealers that make mistakes - had two that either tried to call my 18 hand a "bust" - or pushed the player next to me on what was actually a loss (player had 18, dealer 19). I think they just screwed up. Being new, I'm sure I missed other mistakes and just caught those two.

As for dealers who *should* be pulled from the floor - we had one who looked to be on death's door. Practically fainting at the table and just dealing a sloppy game due to his being sick (tired, drugged, who knows). He TOLD the pit boss he was in bad shape - and they let him keep dealing for another 20 minutes or so.

This was Shreveport/Bossier BTW - not Vegas or AC - so maybe being in the minor leagues, such sloppiness is more common?

Dunno which "Indian Casino" SSR is talking about - but I've played at the big one in OK. Never again. Slots maybe, but cards? Nope. Fifty-cent "ante" to play each hand. "Card-based" craps and roulette too.