Monday, May 20, 2013

Reincarnation in Christianity, Judaism and Islam

Christianity, like almost every known religion before it, originally maintained the doctrine of an immortal soul that reincarnates through many lifetimes and bodies. The entire Egyptian religion was based on the consciousnesses journey after death and between material existences. However, over time the idea of reincarnation has been purposely omitted and suppressed by the leaders of modern religions (i.e. the Brotherhood).

“In 553 AD, the belief in reincarnation was outlawed at the Second Synod Council of Constantinople under the influence of the Emperor Justinian. The council decided, without the attendance of the Pope, that: ‘If anyone assert the fabulous preexistence of souls and shall submit to the monstrous doctrine that follows from it, let him be... excommunicated’. The ‘monstrous doctrine’ was that we live forever on an eternal journey of evolution through experience and we are all responsible for our actions in this physical life or a future one. An acceptance of reincarnation took away the power of the heaven or hell mob to frighten people into doing as they, sorry, ‘God’, said. The knowledge continued to be sucked from the public domain. After Constantine the Great, came other emperors who influenced the course of the fast emerging Christian creed … Anyone who strayed even marginally from the official beliefs was brutally executed and their documents destroyed – exactly the Nimrod doctrine of Babylon. This is not just a bunch of power crazed psychopaths, ad-libbing their way through this grotesque slaughter, it was a coldly calculated plan to rule by terror … they wanted to create a mental and emotional prison cell, outside of which it was fatal to tread.” -David Icke, “The Biggest Secret” (117)

“Orthodox Christians also thought the theory of reincarnation minimized the role of Jesus Christ, downplayed the necessity for salvation in this lifetime, and diminished the unique nature of Christ's resurrection. A person's salvation, in orthodox eyes, depends not upon self-determination and free will, as Origen's theories suggest, but only upon embracing Jesus Christ. Furthermore, if a person could choose to reunite with God in any one of many lifetimes, then there would be little fear of eternal damnation - and fear was deemed essential by the orthodox. Origen's idea that the soul is separable from the body also seemed to diminish the extraordinary nature of Christ's resurrection. The miracle of Christ's resurrection was understood to offer the possibility of overcoming physical death. If, however, each soul periodically overcomes death by separating from one body and entering into another, then Jesus's feat would not have been unique … Although Origen died in 284, debate over his theories continued until 553 when he was officially anathematized, or cursed, by the Second Council of Constantinople. In condemning Origen, the Church indirectly dealt with the issue of reincarnation. Christians were not to believe in the pre-existence of souls, the existence of discarnate consciousness, or that a person has any more than this one lifetime to turn to the Christian God without being subject to eternal damnation.” -Helen Ellerbe, “The Dark Side of Christian History” (35-37)

In other words, it took nearly 300 years of disinformation, propaganda, and legislation, but eventually the Church was able to take reincarnation completely out of Christianity. Priests replaced your immortal soul’s journey with the notion of heaven/hell and an omniscient decider God who judges your life’s merit. If and only if you accept Jesus as your personal savior may you ascend to heaven. Otherwise you will be damned to hell’s eternal pits of fire with all the other heathens and heretics.

“And what goes for Christianity goes for Judaism, Islam and all the rest. These religions were created by the same force to achieve the same effect and, therefore, the savior-god myths throughout the ancient world have an identical game plan: 1 You are born with original sin and so you are an unworthy piece of shit from the day you arrive on the planet. 2 You can only be saved by believing in the ‘Savior’ and that means doing what the priesthood tell you to do. 3 If you don’t do that, you will be condemned to the bowels of hell forever … The whole thing was a set up to create yet another religion to entrap the human mind, and the hierarchy of the Christian Church today know all this! The Church elite have always known this because they are part of the secret society stream which created the myth called Christianity.” -David Icke, “The Biggest Secret” (103-6)

“We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes.” -Gene Roddenberry

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam were all created and remain controlled by the Brotherhood. Jews read the Old Testament but not the New, Christians read the whole Bible but not the Koran, and Muslims read all of the above. Muslims accept Jesus but they believe Mohammed was the last prophet and thus his message the most valid. Christians accept Jesus but they believe Mohammed was a false prophet. Jews reject both Jesus and Mohammed, but are still waiting for their prophet. Throughout these three religions the Brotherhood has promoted the idea that a divine messiah will one day come to be King of the world and bring lasting peace to Earth. The Gnostic interpretation of Revelations and the apocalypse, however, refers not to some dreadful end of the world scenario, but rather to the end of your physical lifetime and your souls continuation into the non-physical realms.

“Muslims see Islam as an updated continuation of the Judeo-Christian stream and they, too, have bought the idea that Moses, King David and Jesus were divine prophets sent by the one All Mighty God, when in fact all three are Brotherhood inventions. Their holy book, the Koran, which was supposed to be inspired by God, mentions Jesus in 93 verses and treats him as a living person. Islam was created by the same Brotherhood networks as the Christian religions, to further imprison, divide and rule. Mohammed was the last prophet and therefore, the Muslims reckon, the most valid. As such, all Christians and Jews should convert to Islam, the orthodox Muslims demand. The term, Jihad, is the ‘Holy War’ that Muslims are urged to wage against all who do not accept the creed of Mohammed. How fitting that Islam means ‘to submit or surrender’ and Muslim means ‘one who submits’. Some of the bloodiest conflict in history has resulted from the desire of Islam, Christianity and Judaism to impose their creed on each other, when they all come from the same source and the same manipulation! Excuse me, did I come in late and miss something? Beam me up Scotty, get me out of here...

The Islamic god Allah is the same ‘god’, the Muslims say, as the Judeo-Christian,

Jehovah. The Koran is the Islamic holy book, but Muslims also give credence to the

Pentateuch, the first five books of the Old Testament attributed to Moses. In truth they

were written by the Levites after Babylon and not by ‘Moses’, which was a title in the

Egyptian mystery schools. Is it really a coincidence that these three massive prisons of the mind, suppressors of the female, and creators of bloody conflict, should all come from the same part of the world? Islam is not the opposite of Christianity and Judaism, they are all ‘oppo-sames’: the same state of mind with a different name, ultimately controlled by the same people … Today, part of the Brotherhood Agenda is to stimulate conflict with the Islamic nations by causing division between the Muslim and Christian-Jewish world.” -David Icke, “The Biggest Secret” (117-9)

“In order to determine the framework upon which the Christian conspirators hung their myths, in fact, we will need to turn to that ancient body of knowledge which in almost every culture has been considered sacred and which the priests have wished to keep to themselves: the science of astrology. The Christian masses, of course, are repeatedly taught to reject all forms of ‘astrology’ or ‘star-gazing’ as the ‘work of the Devil,’ and any number of biblical texts are held up to assert that astrology is an ‘evil’ to be avoided at all costs. This animosity towards studying the heavenly bodies and their interrelationships is in reality propaganda designed to prevent people from finding out the truth about the Bible. Despite its outward vilification by the clergy, astrology has also been used by countless kings and heads of state privy to the astrological, as opposed to literal, nature of the Bible. Not being thus privy, biblical literalists claim that everything in the Bible occurred literally and factually upon the earth, including the talking snake, Noah’s ark, the parting of the Red Sea, the raising of the dead and numerous other incredible miracles that apparently occurred only to the biblical people at that time in that part of the world. The miraculous and implausible exploits of other cultures, however, are to be tossed aside as being unhistorical, mythological and downright ridiculous.” -Acharya S., “The Christ Conspiracy” (92-3)

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comments:

People still believe in that god thing? Ruling out god was simple, I did that as a kid, but working out the real truth took some doing with all the crap about.

Science, the new religion, was tempting for some time but that turned out to be hollow guess work based on grand assumptions.

God though, 3 seconds..

Kid: "mum, if there is a god, why did he let daddy die?"

Mum: "that's easy son, it's because he loves us"

Because he loves us, we have war and famine and hate and violence, We talk about his love and sit in silence. Because he loves us, we have war and famine and hate and violence, Our leaders lie to us and give us violence. Because he loves us... etc etc

I have a whole song and partial rap to go with that and will finish it one day.

God? pah! - but can't be replaced with "chance" or "big bang" as they involve just as much blind faith.

It's not in books and no more proof be needed of that than the collection of research provided here by Eric.

Keep it up.

I just hope people find the power to look inside and not out to others for answers.

1. Tao, have you considered that your mum might have been incorrect? Just because what she said about God doesn't make sense, that doesn't mean God doesn't exist. You're also assuming that "letting Daddy die" is inherently a bad thing, which isn't necessarily true since we know nothing about what happens after death.

2. Eric, I don't think you addressed this in your post, or maybe I just missed it - if Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all created and controlled by the Brotherhood, then why has there been so much conflict between the three religions? Surely if there were an organization controlling all three, they wouldn't pit them against each other and create such destructive conflict, unless their agenda is truly sadistic purely for the purpose of hurting people. That, however, is a lot less plausible than a group of people who want control; the desire for power is a far more common failing than the desire to inflict suffering.

It also may be prudent to distinguish between God and the view of God that Christianity (and some other religions) paints for us. It can be easy and perhaps even rational to say that the God priests and other holy people tell us about, He who loves and cares for, does not exist - especially given the state of the world today. It is much harder to disprove completely the idea of "God" or a "Creator", whose temperament and agenda may be different and quite unknown.

God can be disproved simply by the fact there is no room for a god. God requires a knower and so that is 2 things, If you unite all dualities you reach a one-ness that is pointless to call god as it is naming something beyond division and qualities so naming that outside of duality causes duality and fails. No room for god. Simple. If your God exists, then it lives in the world of duality, cause and effect so is fallible and likely dead.

At two, yes "divide and conquer" is the exact method and reason that the major religions are controlled in that way. That is a fundamental point that if you don't get, then no wonder you miss the point of all Eric is saying.

Ouch. I'm not sure why you're angry; I don't believe I've said anything insulting. If you're angry about the subject matter...you brought it up, not me.

First, I'm not sure God "requires" a knower...actually, I'm pretty sure He doesn't. Second, I'm not sure I understand your argument entirely - what does it mean to "unite all dualities into a oneness"? Isn't the point of a duality that it is composed of two incompatible concepts which cannot be united? I'm also not sure why existing in the world of cause and effect requires fallibility and death - I live in the world of cause and effect, and while I am fallible, I'm certainly not dead.

I'm having trouble following your argument though, if none of that applies, feel free to rephrase it.

Divide and conquer is a method of conquering an existing group that you have no control over. When you already have control of the three groups, as Eric is proposing the Brotherhood does, there is no point in fostering division.

The purpose of the division is to weaken the group - when the group is already under your control, there is no conceivable reason for weakening them. If you want to increase your power, you would unite all the groups you control, not divide them.

“It's not in books and no more proof be needed of that than the collection of research provided here by Eric.”

Almost this entire blog, and Eric's entire book, is a collection of quotations from other books.

”I just hope people find the power to look inside and not out to others for answers.”

This entire blog is a collection of other people’s answers. I think that I've read one original thought posted on this entire blog - I believe it was something about science and infinity? I don't recall the specifics.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that (after all, it's pretty hard to have an original thought after like 4000 years or whatever of written history - I'm not criticising Eric for his methods), but you can't condemn people for looking to the Church for answers and applaud Eric for looking to David Icke for answers in the same breath.

Why would A Brotherhood be a puppetmaster behind seemingly the 'same' religious groups? As said, so as to KEEP POWER via Divide and Rule. For if people form divisions between themselves which mean they are in conflict with each other then this means the FOCUS of attention is not on the ones behind the scenes.This scam is played on every level by the ruling elite. Another verion is so-called 'multiculturalism'. Think about it;)

Now I wanted to say about this part that it got me thinking about the EASTERN/Indian acceptance of 'reincarnation' and how come THAT has gone wrong? For as is obvious, with it has come a caste system justified by dodgy beliefs in 'Karma' and that some people deserve--via karma--to be rich, and other deserve to be shovelling the rich's shit--literally! And the general poverty in India is shocking, so why should this be? And this is why:

Because reality, nature, is considered by their belief systems to be illusory. A trap, and that the 'pure' ones, the 'gurus' and 'holy men' have good karma and have gone through many lifetimes to get where they at, and can leave the circle of birth and death when they die unless THEY choose to come back to 'save souls' etc.So see, the REAL trap here (like the Christian-Islamic mythic scam of heaven or hell) is the idea that nature is a trap!!

So is there a deeper understanding? Well yes, there is an authentic Goddess, and Pagan, and Indigenous understanding that nature, earth is already sacred, and that life, death, and regeneration is sacred, and that this understanding is the real responsibility where we deeply care for our home earth, for our children, and awareness which awares eternally via life, death, and regeneration.

Tao: You are using outdated arguments and horrific examples of the Straw Man Fallacy. Being rude isn't going to change that. It does raise the question of whether or not your beliefs are dogmatic. Those who are convinced that their beliefs are right but can't defend them have a tendency to find opposing views to be very difficult to face. I am sure that Eric and yourself would be the first to raise this (valid) point in relation to Christianity.

Because this is a common objection to the existence of God, I want to take a moment to fully address your point. Your argument is essentially the epicurean argument (http://the-big-american-zero.blogspot.com/2008/03/existance-of-evil.html) and is only valid if human beings have no free will and thus no responsibility for their own actions. In other words if evil is an inherent property of the world and is not caused by human decisions. It is easily demonstrated that you do not hold this latter point as you are an activist for change (your posting here for example). Is only be possible for you to effect change if your words and actions are able to impact the free will of others.

Muzu: I think I understand your argument. By keeping these groups pitted against one another, they are able to keep them focused on an external "enemy" and not on the real enemy, the ruling class (or Brotherhood). This is a compelling argument a la 1984! However, surely this method is only effective if everyone is a member of one or the other of the three groups. As there are many other groups out there (Buddhists, Atheists, Agnostics, Hindu, Pagan...), some actively working to destroy these groups, the conflict would only serve to weaken the central groups under Brotherhood control.

Think of it in terms of a game of world domination. If I am in charge of a huge country, I could try to keep the populace in line by splitting it into three parts and pitting the one part against the other. However, if there are any OTHER countries in the world than it is better to keep my own unified (at least until I have subjugated the rest of the world)!

...So the idea is not strictly to weaken the world, it is to distract the world from looking for the Brotherhood, and the inevitable destruction is merely a byproduct, and not the intent, of the action? That is much more plausible, barring Torq's objection - which is substantial; those 3 religions are estimated to have about 3.2 billion members, a relative minority of whom could actually be considered "under the control" of their religious leaders - say half, which would mean the Brotherhood controls 25% of the world.

A far more efficient strategy, then, would be to direct the conflict towards Buddhists and Hindus. However, the position from which I can argue with you is then reduced from "this strategy is pointless" to "there's a better strategy," which obviously is a much weaker objection.

However, if we are to accept the possility of a group that has ruled the world in near absolute secrecy for thousands of years, we must assume that they are an incredibly smart group of people and would be able to figure out the most optimal solution.

Unless they figured that people would be having the same discussion we're having now, and took a nonoptimal solution simply to throw people like me off the trail.

Eric, I am not sure what the basis your final quotation on this page is. It is the atheist who claims that all religions are wrong, not the Christian (or any other religious person). I am not sure where it is said that the miracles presented by other religions than Christianity are false, but it is nothing which I have ever read.

Also, there are certain implications to reincarnation which you don't actually address here. I am curious as to what the point of life is, in your view. If there is a purpose to life and we are continually reborn until we achieve that purpose, what happens when we do achieve it (then explain how this is different from a concept of heaven) and what happens if we never achieve it (isn't the endless pursuit of a goal which we never achieve hellish?)?

Reincarnation is not necessarily philosophically unsound, but the nature of your objections to the alternatives are certainly suspect. Do people even have souls? Can you prove it?

You have left unanswered every philosophical question which I have asked you about your theories. Why are you unwilling to dialog about what you feel to be true?

Torq~~As I understand it the elite DO own the world, and THEY belong in each others groups in that their goal is a New World Order of complete control

Having people fighting each other IS control for them because the relatively small elite makes MUCH money from war which increases their war industry

Like Eric is showing: WHO created such a myth that would have people fearful of going to everlasting hell UNLESS they obeyed the authority of 'God' and his priests?Surely the same who carries out other deceptic scams having people believing all kinds of falsities

Now it is--as well as that--the myth of mental illness. And the dream of never-ending growth, and throw in 'global warming'. Thers no end to their scams, because they have dumbed people down so much not many know how to think, or have TIME to think

The elite do own the world, in that those who are in power are defined as the elite. There is nothing to suggest, however, that the mere fact of being in power creates a coalition between those in power. To the contrary, those who crave power usually envy other people who have power, and would seek to take it from them. The idea of a power-hungry person sharing power is not very plausible.

How do the elite make money from war? Weapons manufacturers make money off war, but George Bush, Tony Blair, et al are not, to the best of my knowledge, weapons manufacturers.

I can't speak for anyone else, but the only place I've ever seen anyone saying "you will go to hell unless ____" is on TV, and I've been to many church services over the years. I also know many religious people, and none of them are "fearful of going to everlasting hell unless ____." This is a view of Christians which, in my personal experience, is completely groundless. Your experience may, of course, differ, but I suspect that my experience is actually fairly typical.

For Torq: I'm willing to dialogue over what I know to be true, I'm just not willing to re-hash the same information and arguments we've been discussing offline for years. You think Jesus is a historical figure and that the Christian God makes more sense than any other metaphysical system. I don't. 8 years of friendly philosophical debate hasn't changed either of our minds :)

I believe that which makes sense to me, you believe that which makes sense to you. I am still astounded that two people with such different metaphysical philosophies can agree on so much in the practical sphere.

Muzu: So you think that the smaller groups are under the control of the elite as well? This would make more sense. However, why would they be concerned with making money? Money is not real, and is certainly not real at the level you are talking about.

Also, I do agree with Ben, the great majority of religious people don't view the whole "hell and damnation" thing in the way which popular culture portrays it. Now I do allow that SOME do!

Torq: "Muzu: So you think that the smaller groups are under the control of the elite as well? This would make more sense. However, why would they be concerned with making money? Money is not real, and is certainly not real at the level you are talking about."

Of course its not real. Have you seen that great YT video cartoon that explains how the money scam/banks/federal reserve operates.That they bascially make money out of thin air-----? Our 'debt' with 'interest'....?

Muzu: I have not seen the cartoon, but I understand the principle. My question is, why should these groups try to amass something which is an illusion, an illusion which (if this blog is correct) they themselves have created?

Eric: I am genuinely interested in your thoughts on reincarnation and the other questions I have raised. The reason which I frequent your site is that I am interested in what you have to say and am curious as to how you overcome difficulties which I find to be insurmountable. I am not, of course saying that they are in fact insurmountable. I have made as many (or more) mistakes as anyone in my philosophical efforts and it is through dialog and dispute that I am able to broaden my own understanding and to see my errors.

If one really pays attention to the Book of Revelation, it is the story of the NWO. Those that follow the leader will be rewarded and will return with him/them to kill the rest of humanity with swords. Jesus is said to have on garments dipped in their blood. Those that survive this slaughter will live in the new world and be ruled over by the minions of jesus and they will rule with rods of iron. That book is the blueprint for the illuminati and it was not written for us but against us. Lucifer is the morning star and jesus says he is the morning star. Revelation declares that the devil deceived the whole world, not just part of it. How else can that happen unless by manmade religions that serve the same spirit under different names? It would be extremely careless to believe that the 'elite' would not control religions the same as everything other aspect of life everywhere. The churches keep the sheep docile and obeying the leaders "for god placed them in office". Google FEMA Clergy Response Teams and see what I mean. They get their thirty pieces of silver from the government and the mindless herd don't have a clue and worse, they don't want to know.

The bible patriarchs and even jesus were of the same bloodline that rules us now. It has always been this way since the Sumerians and maybe beyond. Those gods they spoke of were flesh and blood who produced offspring with humans. That is the pre-occupation with bloodlines. This story is old as the world itself and we are about to see how it all ends. The majority of the worlds population is brain washed by the very religions created to keep them ignorant and on the side of what is going to kill or enslave them. What do we do when people won't wake up?

And for anonymous, yes I renounce all non-sense, man-made, voodoo, woo woo gobbledy-gook like Apollyon/Lucifer/Satan. But my question is, without a big black book and billions of people telling me such entities exist, how would I know that I "must renounce Satan?"

If however we look at religious parables, iconography, symbology etc. in a holistic manner, then we'd likely agree that Apollyon/Lucifer/Satan/Jesus/Buddha/Krishna/Mithra and every other such figure are all merely archetypes personifying various human potentialities.

Thus it is less important that I renounce a fictional archetypal character from my life, than it is that I renounce the behaviors represented by that character.

Jesus wasn't a Christian (if he even existed) and Buddha wasn't a Buddhist (if he even existed). The path is written within all of us.

Anon: I believe you are missing my point. I am aware of the fundamentals of the pyramid scheme; what I am saying is that historically, dictators do not suffer other dictators well. Pyramid schemes are incredibly common; cooperation (especially long-term cooperation) between dictators is not.

A power-hungry dictator does not typically suddenly decide "oh, I have enough power" or "oh, I have enough money" and stop aggressively pursuing more power. They pursue power until they are stopped by someone more powerful or until they die.

This is why I find the thesis that there is a ruling council or cabal so questionable; historically, this is not particularly common. It posits a completely different motivation from that which characterizes almost every dictatorship in history.

Unfortunately, all of Satan's work, or Lucifer's works is everywhere...it is the 3-Dimensional world we experience daily from moment to moment.

The same god who decided to create the world imagined the Devil into existence - in order to, "bring order out of chaos." The old, loving god is also the evil, sadistic Luciferian manipulator of all things 3D: that includes SCIENCE, RELIGION, PHILOSOPHY, and everything else dedicated to the foundation of the 3D looney-tunes show.

Muzuzuzus said:“So is there a deeper understanding? Well yes, there is an authentic Goddess, and Pagan, and Indigenous understanding that nature, earth is already sacred, and that life, death, and regeneration is sacred...”For the Earth, nature and even life and death to be sacred they all must be created by someone who is sacred ans wasn’t created anything else. They can’t be sacred on their own.Ben Holsapple said:“There is nothing to suggest, however, that the mere fact of being in power creates a coalition between those in power.”“To the contrary, those who crave power usually envy other people who have power, and would seek to take it from them.”It may be true but what about all the people who are in power have been put in power by someone who wants them to play an act of enmity between each other, but in the most important aspects do the same thing no matter which part of the world they are located. The finest example: all governments are fighting terrorism which actually doesn’t exist apart from a couple of created groups.You seem to believe whatever you hear and read. Have you actually met someone who is like that and ready to even kill for it? The answer is no. The leaders, who we are told do anything just to increase their power, is a big lie. They are actually puppets who must serve their masters. Don’t waste your time and energy on the puppets; research and try to figure out the weaknesses of the masters instead. Who knows you might find a way how to fight them.Anonymous said:“If one really pays attention to the Book of Revelation, it is the story of the NWO.”I second that.Anonymous said:“I c the main theme here in this whole thread is about why Jews, Christians and Muslims kill each other? Why? Because, "god", "jesus", "Allah' loves human blood sacrifice.”If you are referring to the God the people who have got the control of the world believe in, I second that. If it is true that the God, you are referring to, really loves the human sacrifice you need to ask why He/She wants/loves it? Because by having people sacrificed for Him/Her, He/She tries to prove that He/She is the real God. By trying to do so He/She proves that He/She is not the real God, because the real God who has creates us, the world, the whole universe doesn’t need to prove anything to anybody. Because the real God is omnipotent.Eric said:“If however we look at religious parables, iconography, symbology etc. in a holistic manner, then we'd likely agree that Apollyon/Lucifer/Satan/Jesus/Buddha/Krishna/Mithra and every other such figure are all merely archetypes personifying various human potentialities. Thus it is less important that I renounce a fictional archetypal character from my life, than it is that I renounce the behaviors represented by that character.”You have to understand that the Lucifer/Satan/demons (some of the demons serve God rather than Lucifer & Satan), were “the people” BEFORE the God created us. We (or at least some of us) have some genealogical connection with them, but I haven’t looked at this issue thoroughly enough yet. It is not that they “personify various human potentialities”, on the contrary by being misleads by them and leading a life against our Creator has a potential of having us become THEM for “the people” who might come AFTER us.

To: Eric“And what goes for Christianity goes for the rest of them, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism and all the rest...1 You are born with original sin and so you are an unworthy piece of shit from the day you arrive on the planet.

Islam teaches the opposite. Every child is born pure and sinless. Otherwise is illogical anyway. You really need to give attention who and what you are quoting not to drove your readers away.

I have read Icke and admire him for the knowledge he has and his willingness to share it. But it is a pity that all his knowledge has not led him to God, but to the opposite. And I really hope that it's just a coincidence rather than a well-constructed plan that he doesn't believe in God.

I have read a lot of people like Icke recently and found that most of them don't believe in God (including you, Eric). It could be that the fallacies of the current religions, mainly of Christianity, resulted in them turn away from God. Most probably they will reach a point when they can't deny that us, the whole world and the universe couldn't be created by just a chance/coincidence. The question is, will they accept it and announce it? I hope they (you) will.

Luckily, author of the best "conspiracy" site in terms of analysis overlordsofchaos.com believes in God (he is Christian), even believes Muhammad (p.b.u.h) was a prophet!

Like you said, there's no way this whole world/universe was created by accident... it is glaringly obvious that creation/reality is a result of some supreme intelligence. The word "God" has picked up some crazy connotations though, so I'm careful how I use that word is all.

"Have you actually met someone who is like that and ready to even kill for it? The answer is no. The leaders, who we are told do anything just to increase their power, is a big lie. They are actually puppets who must serve their masters."

No, you're right, I have not met anyone like that (or at least, no one I have identified as such). However, if I were to accept that me not having met such people means that such people do not exist (aside from the obvious fallacy there), why would the same argument not apply to the secret "masters" you speak of?

Could I not simply say that since I haven't met anyone who is interested in deceiving the world, all these conspiracy theories are false, and the "masters" do not exist?

Ben said:"...why would the same argument not apply to the secret "masters" you speak of?"

I'm not implying that evil people don't exist. I am just saying that the reason for the so-called "dictators" to torture their people is not ONLY because they are bad people trying to increase their wealth and power. They do it because they wouldn't be on the throne if they hadn't accepted to do these things in the first place. The lie that it's their power hungriness and love for wealth is their only motivation is told everyday because they don't want you and me to know that they are actually serving their masters who are the real evil people. I don't have to tell you where to to look for them, closer to home maybe...

So then what was the point of asking if I had ever met anyone like that?

Additionally, I'm not sure what difference the whole power-behind-the-power thing makes. Say we accept that the people we see in power are just puppets. Doesn't that indicate that all those attributes (power-hungry, etc) simply belong to whoever is really in power behind the scenes, and not the people we see as in power? What difference would that make? The people in power would still be power-hungry, and would therefore be likely to exhibit the traits of power-hungry people.

The only interpretation I see to escape this is that you think the entire historical record pertaining to power-hungry people is manipulated and invalid, and therefore when we discuss power-hungry people, we cannot pretend to know anything at all about their motivations. Is that about right?

this blog is very interesting although its clearly designed to put me on tilt with the ickiness.

The foundation of the varying religions is interesting, some people suspect that they are all a farse to begin with to control the masses but if that where true why would they be making so many edits throughout the years?

Interesting discussion so far, thanks to Ben and Torq my own position is already well represented ;-) You had me smile for minutes for that point: "...but you can't condemn people for looking to the Church for answers and applaud Eric for looking to David Icke for answers in the same breath. " :-D (I'm not saying I'm look to ANY church by the way...)

Eric: By following Icke and Manly P. Hall you are either on a big detour, or you are another hidden adept of mystery babylon - which is it?

Now to topic:"In 553 AD, the belief in reincarnation was outlawed at the Second Synod Council of Constantinople under the influence of the Emperor Justinian."As a former Christian (childhood) and now sympathetic with the Hare Krishna movement of Srila Praphupada I was strongly intrigued by that information before, but could never find real backup for that information, or where it originally came from. Does anybody know more on that (other than the claims of the occultist, baileyan, satanist Icke)?

Amusingly, reincarnationists can never seem to reach an agreement on which council was actually responsible for this alleged censure. Some blame Constantine and the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D., while others point to the Fifth Ecumenical Council, or Constantinople II, in 553 A.D. under Justinian. It should be noted, however, that a careful study of Church history clearly indicates that reincarnation was not even a matter of discussion at either council, much less removed from the Bible by overzealous fundamentalists.

Furthermore, there is no indication that the contents of our present Bible are lacking in any way from what was included in its original text. With over 24,000 partial or complete manuscripts in existence, the new Testament is the best documented literary account of ancient history that we possess today (coming in a distant second is The Iliad and the Odyssey, by Homer, with 643 contradictory manuscripts). Even if all of the new Testament manuscripts were somehow destroyed, it would still be possible to reconstruct all but approximately ten verses from the writings of the early Church fathers, all done prior to the third century.