tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post2645084814112973173..comments2018-02-17T09:59:59.216-06:00Comments on Mormanity - A Mormon Blog (But Not Just for Mormons): Elder Holland on LDS ApologeticsJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-43979859129643971172017-08-30T02:59:10.073-05:002017-08-30T02:59:10.073-05:00Mormanity quote: “you seem to take such great offe...Mormanity quote: “you seem to take such great offense at small things …. you would do well to chill and not be so easily offended “Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-12226936578685091262017-08-30T02:58:57.089-05:002017-08-30T02:58:57.089-05:00&quot;noted for their sense of slapstick humor. Ma...&quot;noted for their sense of slapstick humor. Many of the band&#39;s songs explore themes of parent vs. child conflicts and criticisms of the educational system.&quot;Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-49132409967328451702017-08-30T01:30:58.220-05:002017-08-30T01:30:58.220-05:00Offensive remark was deleted.Offensive remark was deleted.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-12591868774927863732017-08-29T17:09:25.171-05:002017-08-29T17:09:25.171-05:00I mentioned it in another comment thread, but I ju...I mentioned it in another comment thread, but I just want to make this clear here as well (since I&#39;m 99% sure Mormography means me when s/he refers to &#39;Twisted Sister&#39;):<br /><br />I&#39;m a &quot;he.&quot;Ramernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-46837479686919428942017-08-28T17:58:50.191-05:002017-08-28T17:58:50.191-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-41721437652621861482017-08-28T17:37:24.813-05:002017-08-28T17:37:24.813-05:00No, the twisting is because you are either taking ...No, the twisting is because you are either taking statements involving different things and interpreting them to mean something that neither of them truly mean, or finding something in someone&#39;s statement (in this case mine) that was not there. Using &#39;evil&#39; instead of &#39;impure&#39; or &#39;corrupt&#39; is not twisting in and of itself, but it would be if you persisted after it was clarified or corrected.<br /><br /><i>Ha, you could not answer the question. You could not produce your rejection criteria. You lose. ... Pretty, pretty lame.</i><br />I gave you my rejection criteria, I&#39;m sorry you don&#39;t agree with them. I think I&#39;m done interacting with you if you&#39;re just going to start resorting to inflammatory insults once again.Ramernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-55203535431950274102017-08-28T17:27:18.565-05:002017-08-28T17:27:18.565-05:00Ha, you could not answer the question. You could ...Ha, you could not answer the question. You could not produce your rejection criteria. You lose.<br /><br />I am twisting, because I use the word &#39;evil&#39; instead of your preferred &#39;impure&#39;... Pretty, pretty lame ... Stick to your day job.Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-14645594287894332992017-08-28T17:03:42.257-05:002017-08-28T17:03:42.257-05:00According to you, a young Joseph Smith today could...<i>According to you, a young Joseph Smith today could join another Christian Church as those churches are no longer corrupt, and would reject the Mormon Church due to un-Christ like attitudes. Am I just twisting things?</i><br /><br />I would have to say yes, because I have no idea how you got that out of what I posted. I didn&#39;t say anything like that, nor did I imply it.<br />We believe the other churches are still &#39;corrupt&#39; in a way - i.e. impure (as per my correction) - since as far as I know they haven&#39;t changed their beliefs since Smith&#39;s day. We don&#39;t deny, however, that many of the followers of the other churches are sincere in their beliefs, and as a whole aren&#39;t trying to destroy the faith of others.<br />All churches (including the LDS church) will undoubtedly have its bad apples, but when its professors or leaders are behaving the way Joseph described in his history, I would probably be pretty confused too.<br /><br /><i>If I am just twisting things, as you claim, then please tell me what your rejection criteria of other religions is?</i><br />Personal testimony and revelation mainly, but also intellectual study and upbringing.Ramernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-57794126761494837492017-08-28T16:49:29.623-05:002017-08-28T16:49:29.623-05:00The third is from the discontinued endowment cerem...The third is from the discontinued endowment ceremony, but thank you for corroborating and admitting the others are real.<br /><br />According to you, a young Joseph Smith today could join another Christian Church as those churches are no longer corrupt, and would reject the Mormon Church due to un-Christ like attitudes. Am I just twisting things?<br /><br />If I am just twisting things, as you claim, then please tell me what your rejection criteria of other religions is? Or is the LDS Church one of many paths towards Christ?Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-27244084427657273432017-08-28T16:30:11.739-05:002017-08-28T16:30:11.739-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-72004664734150975302017-08-28T16:15:24.943-05:002017-08-28T16:15:24.943-05:00Just realized that &quot;corrupt&quot; could still...Just realized that &quot;corrupt&quot; could still be taken to mean &quot;evil.&quot; When I said &quot;corrupt&quot; in that last comment I essentially meant &quot;impure.&quot;Ramernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-58942920800642697052017-08-28T14:33:22.105-05:002017-08-28T14:33:22.105-05:00Anons must be talking about a different Peterson, ...Anons must be talking about a different Peterson, because I&#39;ve read some presentations on FAIR by the LDS apologist by that name, and he&#39;s nothing like what they&#39;re claiming.<br /><br />And as far as Mormography&#39;s claim about the claim that another religion is evil - he&#39;s twisting a few different statements relating to different things.<br /><br /><i>...other churches are “whores”, “great and abominable”...</i><br /><i>“that those professors were all corrupt; that: ‘they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me’”</i><br /><i>...protestant ministers are in the employ of Satan.</i><br /><br />The first is from 1 Nephi and is talking about the church of the devil, which is any church or group that directly opposes the work of God. Of course this would be evil. Notice, however, that no actual church/group is specified - especially not the Catholic church, which some think this is referring to.<br />The second is from Joseph Smith&#39;s First Vision, and is referring to the other churches around at Joseph Smith&#39;s time. It&#39;s not saying they&#39;re <i>evil,</i> just corrupt and not truly invested in the work of God. And indeed, the actions attributed to them by Smith do seem pretty un-Christlike (JS-H 1:6, 9).<br />The third I can&#39;t say much about because I&#39;ve never heard it; I&#39;m sure that&#39;s not a mainstream viewpoint.Ramernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-7788458523293149092017-08-28T00:55:00.729-05:002017-08-28T00:55:00.729-05:00You are right about Peterson, 12:09, but I&#39;m a...You are right about Peterson, 12:09, but I&#39;m afraid your political ramblings have left me scratching my head. Maybe turn off the radio and look to more level-headed news sources.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-30376777573145533682017-08-28T00:09:23.324-05:002017-08-28T00:09:23.324-05:00Mormon Apologetics would be much better if some ap...Mormon Apologetics would be much better if some apologists, one in particular named Daniel Peterson, would quit using ad hominen attacks, snark, and condescension against those he does not like. He does more harm than good. <br /> <br />He behaves exactly like those he decries. <br /> <br />Peterson is even worse on his blog. He is a foot stomping, willfully ignorant, arrogant, infantile, thin skinned, intolerant hypocrite.<br /> <br />He is the names he calls others, especially the derogatory terms and cuss words he calls people when he becomes unhinged in his blog. He plays identy politics, just as the liberal left does, when his narrow views are challenged. <br /><br /><br />He never tries, nor wants to see or recognize other view points and opinions because he is absolutely right and any opposing views are wrong, even when he is presented with facts that contradict him. <br /><br /><br /><br />Alex Haley plagerized the majority of his book &quot;Roots&quot;. Haley&#39;s reputation is protected to this very day. <br /><br /><br />&quot;Other churches are whores, great and abominable&quot;. They are. The Catholic Church removed a statue I&#39;d Jesus at a Catholic school because communist left Liberals were offended. The Catholics gave in to hate from the communist liberal left. And I fear the LDS church will do the same. The LDS church leaders already leans communist left Liberal like the pope. <br />Other Christian denominations have moved away from Biblical teachings and are caving to the communist left Liberals. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-91610521281187047092017-08-27T08:08:16.751-05:002017-08-27T08:08:16.751-05:00Mormanity – I see, if you are an apologist you are...Mormanity – I see, if you are an apologist you are an extremely poor one. You cannot defend the most basic foundational claims of Mormonism. The War In Heaven was a war of words. You appear to be on the losing side.Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-54967288537788706302017-08-27T08:07:20.781-05:002017-08-27T08:07:20.781-05:00The Roots mini-series was popular with Mormons, bu...The Roots mini-series was popular with Mormons, but Alex Haley deserves the credit for turning American hearts to genealogy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roots_(1977_miniseries)<br /><br />Baptism for the dead is controversial even among other Mormon denominations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_for_the_dead#Controversy<br /><br />Genealogy good and not unique. Baptism for the dead unique and fundamentally offensive.Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-78643553512273685742017-08-26T23:32:35.747-05:002017-08-26T23:32:35.747-05:00One of the best and most beautiful and unique (in ...One of the best and most beautiful and unique (in our day) aspects of the Church is the doctrine of God&#39;s fairness and mercy expressed in the concept of baptism for the dead. What grandeur and justice is revealed in this! The turning of our hearts to our fathers and mothers and ancient ancestors as we learn about their lives and do something beautiful on their behalf is transcendently good even if you question its validity. Good and unique in these days, like many things in the Church. Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-83715065423766138182017-08-26T23:14:00.469-05:002017-08-26T23:14:00.469-05:00Anon@2:00pm, thanks for using a mini-chiasmus, rem...Anon@2:00pm, thanks for using a mini-chiasmus, reminding us that the abundance of chiasmus and ancient Hebrew poetical and linguistic elements evident in the Book of Mormon, good as they are, are not unique. But the presence of the ancient in that text or in the temple or in other parts of the Church is not meant to be unique, but a restoration. <br /><br />Though they have ancient roots or can be found in various forms across history, some of the good things in the Church are still often viewed as rather unique or unusual in some ways in our day. For example, the Church&#39;s welfare program can be viewed that way. Ditto for Family Home Evening, the Book of Mormon itself, the Church&#39;s emphasis on education including subsidizing opportunities for many, the restoration of basic teachings on the nature of God and the divine potential of man, etc. is your problem that you don&#39;t think these things are good or think they are commonplace today?Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-63152563710068228962017-08-26T15:01:03.242-05:002017-08-26T15:01:03.242-05:00Here was my take on Elder Holland&#39;s awesome ta...Here was my take on Elder Holland&#39;s awesome talk at the Chiasmus Jubilee: https://bookofmormonwars.blogspot.com/2017/08/interlude-elder-hollands-powerful-talk.htmljonathan3dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-68713745583402648872017-08-26T14:00:45.568-05:002017-08-26T14:00:45.568-05:00... to Mormography&#39;s point, there&#39;s a very...... to Mormography&#39;s point, there&#39;s a very helpful saying I once heard as I was transitioning out of the church:<br />The good things about the mormon church are not unique, and the unique things about the mormon church are not good.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-51524747892123144022017-08-26T08:01:41.234-05:002017-08-26T08:01:41.234-05:00Mormanity –
You are an apologist ??? Prove it by...Mormanity –<br /><br />You are an apologist ??? Prove it by finally answer this question:<br /><br />How do you prove the foundational claim of Mormonism that another religion is evil? Mormonism claims that other churches are “whores”, “great and abominable”, “that those professors were all corrupt; that: ‘they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me’”, and protestant ministers are in the employ of Satan. How does Mormonism’s prove these claims in a way that cannot also be used against Mormonism also?<br />Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-53700138293707432832017-08-26T07:59:38.745-05:002017-08-26T07:59:38.745-05:00Anonymous 1:22 AM, August 24, 2017 –
Your respon...Anonymous 1:22 AM, August 24, 2017 – <br /><br />Your response comes off a little bit like a ‘false flag’ criticism. Yes, Mormon seminary instructors and high leadership receive a small amount pay, but for all practical purposes the LDS Church does not have a paid clergy. Though mismanaged in the past, Church funds are managed better today. Investing in things such a commercial shopping mall is wise preservation of the trust fund’s capital. But how interest on the trust is spent is the area for thoughtful inspection.<br /><br />Why did Mormon mothers who were counseled to stay at home with their numerous children work part time jobs to fund the Church? Why did an LDS Apostle claim he was oblivious to the household stress the demands of the Church created? If living a semi law of consecration, what financial return are elderly Mormon’s receiving after decades of donating to the Church in amounts that often equaled a third of household income? Typically, labor is an organization’s largest cost. If there is no paid clergy, then why even demand a voluntary taxation of 10%? If the Wasatch front is voluntarily taxing itself an additional 10%, then why are these funds not used to build mental hospitals for the literally thousands of drug-addicted and mentally ill zombies roaming Salt Lake – the worst I have seen in America?Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-87135722001305306452017-08-25T12:35:55.971-05:002017-08-25T12:35:55.971-05:00&quot;Truth often suffers more by the heat of its ...&quot;Truth often suffers more by the heat of its defenders than the arguments of its opposers.&quot; ----William PennAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-85158236308275635032017-08-24T19:31:33.199-05:002017-08-24T19:31:33.199-05:00The numbers suggested have consistently escalated ...<i>The numbers suggested have consistently escalated over time, despite an absence of hard data.</i><br /><br />There&#39;s an easy way to end that. The church could reveal how much stipend the general authorities receive. That wouldn&#39;t be an unreasonable thing to do. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-17068575167820410582017-08-24T18:48:02.012-05:002017-08-24T18:48:02.012-05:00Anon, I&#39;m sorry you and your family are leavin...Anon, I&#39;m sorry you and your family are leaving. I hope you&#39;ll reconsider and rely on more reliable evidence than the emotion-laden claims of critics. For example, the claim you raise about exploiting the poor is objectively fallacious given the Church&#39;s welfare system and abundant efforts to help the poor. Your feeling about the living stipend for General Authorities being too high may not be as grounded as you feel. The claims of critics, always insisting that they have inside information, has resulted in constantly escalating numbers without basis. Have you considered some basics such as <a href="https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Mormonism_and_church_finances/No_paid_ministry/General_Authorities_living_stipend#Question:_Who_is_the_highest-paid_Church_employee_in_the_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints.3F" rel="nofollow">FAIRMormon&#39;s response to these claims regarding salaries</a>?<br /><br />Excerpt:<br /> This type of criticism seems intended to imply that General Authorities perform their duties out of greed, rather than sincere belief. This seems implausible, given that most are at or beyond retirement age when called, and many have been highly successful outside of Church service....<br /><br /> The numbers suggested have consistently escalated over time, despite an absence of hard data.<br /><br /> Those who provide such accounts attempt to make normal practices seem nefarious or hidden.<br /><br /> The Church has not hidden the fact that general authorities receive a stipend, and there is scriptural warrant for the practice.<br /><br />I hope you&#39;ll re-evaluate your reasons for leaving and not be stirred up by unreliable perspectives or claims. Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.com