darth krayt is superior, caedus would beg he was palpatine's grandson just at the sight of vader.

Trocity

Krayt's just better.

Ursumeles

Krayt 10/10.

victreebelvictr

why do you think caedus has a chance?

MythLord

Not sure why Krayt's victory is a sure-fire thing here. Sure, he can win, but Jacen is well within his league and would likely snatch at least a few victories out of 10, if not win a majority.

victreebelvictr

Originally posted by MythLord
Not sure why Krayt's victory is a sure-fire thing here. Sure, he can win, but Jacen is well within his league and would likely snatch at least a few victories out of 10, if not win a majority. he couldnt beat freedon nadd.

victreebelvictr

he cant beat vader

victreebelvictr

he is the same as dooku.

Azronger

Krayt stomps

Jmanghan

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
he cant beat vader He was stated to be more powerful then Vader, but alright.

victreebelvictr

Originally posted by Jmanghan
He was stated to be more powerful then Vader, but alright. i muist admit that his force power is impressive. his stupidity is his weakness. he anint the smartest. it is just shatterpoint im scared about. maybe i just hate him immensely i rate him so low. maybe your right, but he is not even close to vader's intelligence.

Haschwalth

Originally posted by Azronger
Caedus stomps

Trocity

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
it is just shatterpoint im scared about.

Don't worry, Krayt is more powerful and also has shatterpoint.

victreebelvictr

Originally posted by Trocity
Don't worry, Krayt is more powerful and also has shatterpoint. i said Vader should worry that, Krayt would spank him to discipline!

CuckedCurry

They get stomped by Bane alone, forget both him and Zannah.

PoD Bane was more powerful than the entire destruction of Ambria which was more powerful than the energy released to explode an entire star and this was when he was severely weakened. Bane was tremendously amped on Lehon but with two Orbalisks he was more powerful than ever and by the end of ROT had hundreds of Orbalisks meaning he would be hundreds of times more powerful than ever and obviously DoE Bane is more powerful than ROT Bane because he was far faster than Zannah could ever have imagined. The chain looks like this

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
he couldnt beat freedon nadd.
Originally posted by victreebelvictr
he cant beat vader
Originally posted by victreebelvictr
he is the same as dooku.

He beats all three of them.

victreebelvictr

Originally posted by MythLord
He beats all three of them. prove it, put money behind the words.

MythLord

Nadd sucks, and Jacen's confirmed to be &gt; Vader, who in turn is confirmed to be &gt; Dooku. Honestly, just looking at their fights against an enraged Luke is enough to draw the conclusion that Caedus is better than his grandpa.

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by MythLord
who in turn is confirmed to be &gt; Dooku
False.

MythLord

You don't think Vader is &gt; Dooku?

DarthAnt66

Dooku's better than Vader, especially based on Vader's fights with Maul and Kenobi.

Point is, though, Vader's not "confirmed" better than Dooku.

Total Warrior

I think a case could be made for Dooku defeating rebels or EP4 Vader, but by EP6 Vader is superior imo

Jmanghan

Originally posted by MythLord
Nadd sucks, and Jacen's confirmed to be &gt; Vader, who in turn is confirmed to be &gt; Dooku. Honestly, just looking at their fights against an enraged Luke is enough to draw the conclusion that Caedus is better than his grandpa. Nadd doesn't suck at all, but he's no Caedus.

Total Warrior

victreebelvictr

TheIndyJedi

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Dooku's better than Vader, especially based on Vader's fights with Maul and Kenobi.

Point is, though, Vader's not "confirmed" better than Dooku.

Logically Vader should have surpassed Dooku by Force Unleashed 2. Also who's to say Dooku would not struggle with Maul the same way Vader did? Especially since we never seen Dooku actually fight Maul.

TheIndyJedi

Originally posted by Total Warrior
I think a case could be made for Dooku defeating rebels or EP4 Vader, but by EP6 Vader is superior imo

I think episode 4 Vader+ could beat Dooku IMO. But any version before including TFU 1 Vader would lose IMO.
I really don't think its fair to say Dooku&gt;Vader based on their performances against Kenobi. They are two completely different fighters with different advantages/disadvantages.

MythLord

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Dooku's better than Vader, especially based on Vader's fights with Maul and Kenobi.

Point is, though, Vader's not "confirmed" better than Dooku.
I'll take it.

LordOfTheLight

Dooku might win a duel but Vader is far more powerful

victreebelvictr

Duel or fight, duel maybe fight vader

TheIndyJedi

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Dooku might win a duel but Vader is far more powerful

unless Vader goes full djem so on him like he did when he was Anakin.

victreebelvictr

TheIndyJedi

Originally posted by MythLord
I'll take it.

Those fights took place when Vader was before his prime. This isn't enough to suggest he is&lt;Dooku.
Vader stomped the jedi Celeste Mourne, while Krayt couldn't.
That doesn't mean Vader&gt;Krayt.

DarthAnt66

Lmao. Everyone recognizes it was before Vader's prime. However, it's still close enough to his prime that it's unlikely Vader grew unfathomably more powerful in the span of just four years, especially with ample evidence to the contrary considering he struggles against ESB Luke and stalemates/loses to ROTJ Luke (i.e. his only two fights after ANH). The idea Vader grows from being demonstrably inferior to TPM Maul to vastly greater than Dooku via practicing more against training droids is pretty kekable.

NewGuy01

The fight with Maul was from an Infinites title, though, and despite that "demonstrable inferiority," he still won. He also killed Yoda in an Infinites title, if we're taking those into account.

But more pertinent are his (Legends) canon feats from that time period, which include killing Kenobi (who shit all over Maul), and the events of The Force Unleashed, which I assume require no introduction. Beyond that, there's plenty of evidence out there that suggests Vader was the foremost of Palpatine's apprentices, and very little I can recall that suggests otherwise. You're taking your Anakin lowballing too far. no

DarthAnt66

The fight with Maul is from Star Wars Tales, which includes both canon and non-canon stories. However, Leland Chee has canonically endorsed the Maul fight on multiple occasions, so it's absolute fair game.

As for the claim Vader "won," sure, but he lost the actual portion of the fight relevant for analysis in versus debate, lol.

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by NewGuy01
But more pertinent are his (Legends) canon feats from that time period, which include killing Kenobi (who shit all over Maul),

ANH Ben Kenobi only "shits all over Maul" in the Canon continuity, which already has quotes saying Ben was beating Vader, lmao.

Obi-Wan seems to be winning the climatic duel with Darth Vader, even calling his opponent "only a master of evil."

It's relevant, since you were suggesting the Maul fight is Infinities because "it's apart of an Infinities title," which is misleading / false.

And, as I said, Chee has upheld and referenced Maul's fight with Vader, so that story falls under continuity.

So, canonically, TFU Vader got his ass kicked by TPM Maul, and he had to resort to an attempted suicide cheap-shot to kill him.

It's hard to get a more clear-cut demonstration of inferiority. I'm curious why you think otherwise.

I'm just citing the text. Factually, Starkiller was more exhausted than ever before when he fights Vader.

My "opposite" is more toward the idea that there's "plenty of evidence" showing Vader's supreme and "little" suggesting otherwise.

Anyway, Lucas clocking Vader as relativistic to Maul and Dooku clearly doesn't help the idea Vader's clear-cut best girl.

I can get it for you tomorrow night.

---

Here's what we know: Dooku &gt; TPM Darth Maul &gt; TFU Darth Vader.

Is it possible Vader broke through that gap by ROTJ? Maybe, although I imagine most of the "evidence" you'd cite for that case would be pre-ANH centered and non-applicable.

It's an uncomfortable situation for Vader, since all he has is his fights against ESB and ROTJ Luke to go off, neither of which look particularly good for him.

DarthAnt66

Anyway, off to bed. Soy muy tiredo(?).

The Merchant

Well there is a Vader quote that you can really highball Vader but no one would argue for it for the record I also don't argue it js.

In Shadows of the Empire Vader thinks back on his duel with Luke in ESB. He says how warriors need to contend with warriors and now that Obi was is dead all the Jedi are dead save one which is Luke and then says Luke is the strongest Jedi out of all of them.

That implies ESB Luke is stronger than all the PT era Jedi, and since Vader tooled him well therr you go. Or maybe I'm just reading it wrong. Pls no h8.

Zenwolf

Might just be cause it's late here, but I'm seeing some double standards here. Or well, double standards if you look at other characters.

LordOfTheLight

Chee also states that the Maul that Vader faced was not the real Maul so that entire duel gets thrown out as any conclusive evidence

Lucas was also comparing Vader to Dooku and Maul in that he can never surpass Palpatine not in terms of actual ability.

NewGuy01

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's relevant, since you were suggesting the Maul fight is Infinities because "it's apart of an Infinities title," which is misleading / false.

Are the individual stories of SWT individually classified, or by issue? It says on the wikipedia page that the first twenty issues were retroactively labelled as Infinities after the release of the 21st, although I can't find a primary source confirming or denying this.

No, if it was a suicide kill, Vader would have went down with him, but that's not what happened. He wasn't so much as fazed by the damage. I'm not sure why you think it's "cheating" when Vader wins by abusing the gulf in their durability, but it's "kicking ass" when Maul scores a few superficial blows by abusing the gulf in their agility.

Strange that this supposedly game-changing exhaustion didn't play a more pronounced role in the text during the actual duel which we read from Starkiller's perspective, but I digress. On the topic of facts regarding that duel, we already know from Witwer and Blackman that Vader was gaming Starkiller the whole time, and that he threw the fight so that he would be captured (this is also suggested in the DS ending). So really, Starkiller's condition during that fight isn't really that important to begin with.

Yes, I know. And it still doesn't make a modicum of sense. Vader being relative to Maul and Dooku isn't the "opposite" of him being better than them, and it doesn't suggest that he's not the best of the three whatsoever. It means precisely what was said, that he's closer to them than he is Sidious.

https://i20.servimg.com/u/f20/17/76/23/63/garbag11.jpg

NewGuy01

Originally posted by The Merchant
Well there is a Vader quote that you can really highball Vader but no one would argue for it for the record I also don't argue it js.

In Shadows of the Empire Vader thinks back on his duel with Luke in ESB. He says how warriors need to contend with warriors and now that Obi was is dead all the Jedi are dead save one which is Luke and then says Luke is the strongest Jedi out of all of them.

That implies ESB Luke is stronger than all the PT era Jedi

Yeah, I always found that scene to be pretty weird, all things considered. It's possible that it was a misinterpretation on the author's part, as the abilities of the PT-era Jedi weren't established until 1999, or perhaps it's just an expression of Anakin's own narcissism that he views Luke as better than the rest of the Jedi.

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
Ant is finally rebelling against Sas.

?

He's always been rebellious.

TheIndyJedi

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
ANH Ben Kenobi only "shits all over Maul" in the Canon continuity, which already has quotes saying Ben was beating Vader, lmao.
There is actually a quote from the canon book From a certain point of view that suggests Kenobi was losing.

Obi-Wan seems to be winning the climatic duel with Darth Vader, even calling his opponent "only a master of evil."

And note Matt Martin suggests ROTS Obi-Wan's better than Ben Kenobi. Although his opinion isn't absolute Canon, it still adds fire to:
Depends which Kenobi he is talking about. The one who got floored by Dooku? Or the one who went toe to toe against Anakin Skywalker?

I'm not sure losing to a Starkiller on the brink of death is particularly noteworthy, nor does it change his failings against Maul.
He was actually beating Starkiller per novelisation.

Quite the opposite. We have Lucas directly likening Vader's power to Maul and Dooku, and Sidious thinking back to Maul and Dooku and wishing Vader was more like them.

Sidious talks shit about all his apprentices so his opinion doesn't really mean much. Also there is quote from him suggesting Maul&gt;Dooku when we know that isn't true. Also Starkiller was losing to Vader per TFU 2 novel, and only won due to his force powers

TheIndyJedi

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lmao. Everyone recognizes it was before Vader's prime. However, it's still close enough to his prime that it's unlikely Vader grew unfathomably more powerful in the span of just four years, especially with ample evidence to the contrary considering he struggles against ESB Luke and stalemates/loses to ROTJ Luke (i.e. his only two fights after ANH). The idea Vader grows from being demonstrably inferior to TPM Maul to vastly greater than Dooku via practicing more against training droids is pretty kekable.

He never struggled with ESB Luke. Did we watch the same movie??
Sure Luke got one hit on him, but it was obvious Vader was playing around with him during that fight. He also makes a goofy noise after he had been hit suggesting he was never taking the fight seriously. Also you really think Vader would go all out on his own son who he never intended to kill in the first place? Vader stomped him plain and simple.
Bro you are taking your Vader lowballing way too far. And even if Vader did "struggle" against him, it isn't as bad as Maul struggling against a dog or Dooku losing to a bunch of pirates. I'm just playing the lowballing game here.

TheIndyJedi

"Your powers are weak, old man." Our lightsabers clash. I try to push forward, only to be thrust violently back. It's like striking iron. There's no give in Vader's arms, and far too much in mine.

...

"You should not have come back," Vader tells me.

My resources are depleted, my body screaming with pain. I have no hope of winning this fight.

He lunges at me; slash and counterslash, stab and riposte. The air is thick with plasma discharge, lights dancing on the edge of my vision.

here is a quote from The canon book Certain Point of View suggesting Vader&gt;Old Ben

MythLord

Pretty sure the Maul fight is confirmed to be an Infinities title, like Old Wounds, in Insider.

TheIndyJedi

Originally posted by MythLord
Pretty sure the Maul fight is confirmed to be an Infinities title, like Old Wounds, in Insider.

Exactly if were to consider the Vader vs Fake Maul fight canon.
Then we would have to consider the real Maul getting his ass handed to him by Uncle Owen canon too.

Zenwolf

DarthAnt66

Will respond correct everyone tonight. Finally coming home for a bit.

DarthAnt66

-

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

An popcorn timing

DarthSkywalker0

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Chee also states that the Maul that Vader faced was not the real Maul so that entire duel gets thrown out as any conclusive evidence

Lucas was also comparing Vader to Dooku and Maul in that he can never surpass Palpatine not in terms of actual ability.

Not really, linguistically its more likely referring to power.

DarthAnt66

(I) Leland Chee confirmed the canonicity of "Resurrections" on his blog (click): "Darth Maul (clone or Sith magic or something) : A version of Darth Maul is back long enough to have a Maul vs. Vader showdown." This renders it C-Canon, making it just as valid as The Force Unleashed for argumentative purposes.

(II) Star Wars Insider 83 features an article titled "20 Most Memorable Moments of the Expanded Universe," which "highlights some of the most unforgettable moments in the history of the Star Wars literary canon." Within it, it states: "On a cursed moon, Maul is miraculously resurrected through the power of the dark side and challenges Vader's claim to the Sith legacy. The two Dark Lords duel furiously in the planet's molten caverns. In the breath-taking finale, Vader faces away from his enemy on bended-knee, while Maul stands poised to deliver the killing blow." Thus, per the canonical source Insider 83, written by established Star Wars author Abel G. Pena, TFU Vader fighting a "resurrected" Maul is apart of the "Star Wars literary canon." Also note that the source identifies Maul as actually "resurrected," and he is not just some illusion.

(III) Further debunking the idea that it was just an illusion, The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia says "Kalakar Six: A moon reputed to be the site of a climactic confrontation between Darth Vader and a resurrected Darth Maul." Obviously the fight wouldn't be known to some within the galaxy if it simply took place within TFU Vader's mind.

(Note I'm addressing multiple people here, not just you. I'm not sure if you think of it as an illusion or not.)

Maul pushes back Vader in a bladelock, his right arm pushing back TFU Vader's left:

https://i.imgur.com/4sAifIx.png

Also note that TFU Vader's freely using telekinesis during the duel too:

https://i.imgur.com/4RWWPdz.png

The difference with TFU Vader's durability is that it ultimately proved futile in the actual duel - TFU Vader was unable to incorporate his semi-lightsaber-resistant torso in any meaningful capacity to defeat Maul in direct swordplay. While TFU Vader shrugged off two otherwise match-ending blows thanks to his armor (note that, unlike orbalisk Bane, Vader doesn't just allow himself to be hit. While the wounds are superficial thanks to his durability, they still are indicative of TFU Vader's inability to defend against Maul in lightsaber skill and/or Force augmentation), Maul still disarmed him. All the armor did was delay the inevitable. While TFU Vader's heavily guarded in the front, he has little protection at the limbs, and it's hard to fight without a lightsaber/arm.

As far as hypothetical versus matches go, we'd all classify a combatant on the ground disarmed as defeated. No one's arguing Sion defeats Sidious last-second by grabbing his lightsaber and jamming it through his chest also (a move that likely only works while turned around, mind you, and wouldn't even apply if Sidious killed him immediately after disarmament). On that note, your argument is the equivalent of if Sidious fought Sion, Sidious disarmed and brought Sion to his knees, and as Sidious went to strike Sion down Sion stabbed through himself to kill Sidious. If that ever happened, I imagine we'd agree Sidious was the better fighter since he beat Sion in the actual fight.

The text gives a rather broad overview of the actual fight. Still, the text doesn't need to explicitly and repeatedly emphasize the handicap for it not to apply. The fight starts with the text noting Starkiller is more exhausted than ever before. Thus, the rest of the fight is chronicled with that precondition. That Force fatigue doesn't magically lift by exerting more energy. There's also many examples of "conditions" we attribute to characters in fights that the source itself doesn't emphasize. For instance, consider Luke's alleged amp versus Palpatine in Dark Empire, which I know you subscribe to.

Lmao. This myth needs to die. Per Blackman, they didn't even work on concept art for The Force Unleashed 3. All they had was some "brainstorming" of what "could" have happened. Based on his commentary, it appears there were even different plot synopses. The fact Haden toyed with the idea of TFU Vader feigning defeat and told Witwer that it could have happened has utterly no relevance to actual continuity. Unless you have a canonical source that states TFU Vader threw the fight, you have no leg to stand on.

"There was not even any concept art that I can recall. I obviously had ideas about where the story could go - maybe I wrote up a couple of plot synopses just for my own brainstorming - but I knew that I was leaving LucasArts to found my own studio well before we done with TFU 2 so there wasn't a lot of work put into any kind of TFU 3 that I'm aware of." (Source: Haden Blackman).

Further, it's outright contradicted by the narrator of The Force Unleashed 2: "They fought like the Sith Lords of old, raging back and forth across the roof of the spire, uncaring what happened around them. Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him."

So far your argument for that has been literally non-existent. Admit Vader's limitations, restrictions, failure, weakness, and inferiority. :iwin:

Originally posted by NewGuy01
https://i20.servimg.com/u/f20/17/76/23/63/garbag11.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keaDQe2Igrw

DarthSkywalker0

DarthAnt66

(My response is on the last page)

Also, sorry for potential lack of conciseness. You're better at that than me, lmao.)

DarthSkywalker0

@Sas, everything said I said in this thread, was not me, rather Syndicate.

DarthSkywalker0

NewGuy01

You'd better be. I drop one comment and you make me deal with all this shit. And you didn't even have the decency to get me that quote you mentioned on page 2. ****ing poor ass puerto rican fagget.

Alright, seems like that was from after the release of the 21st volume, so I'll take it. According to that article, by the way, Old Wounds is also C-canon, which means ANH Vader still scales above a stronger version of Maul through Kenobi. Which, considering Chee's commentary, would be a more accurate representation of Maul's power than whatever was created by the Prophets.

You worded that oddly, but I'd have to disagree if you're saying that Maul's agility wasn't his foremost advantage in that fight. To begin with, the fight was staged in a series of small platforms in a pool of lava, which would be much more easily navigated by the more acrobatic party. Beyond that, Maul only really gained a decisive advantage when his lightsaber was split in two, which suggests that increasing the speed of his attacks was more advantageous to him than using a weapon he was more proficient with.

No, I wouldn't say controlling a stormtrooper's arm and shifting a rock was Vader "freely using his telekinesis" any more than Plagueis snapping a tree branch was him "freely using his telekinesis" against Venamis. If anything, the fact that you even felt the need to make note of that little tidbit is a testament to how physical of a fight it really was.

Uh, no, not necessarily. In the case of your examples, Sion and Bane, literally no one would classify it that way.

No, it doesn't, typically. However, what you're suggesting is more extreme than Starkiller simply not being in top form--you're suggesting that his exhaustion was the critical, deciding factor of the fight, which is not supported by the text's depiction whatsoever.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.

...

I love RotS.

A lack of concept art doesn't really mean anything with regards to the team's plans for the end of Starkiller's story (which we know ended him in him dying, and Vader living, because the OT), but I digress, I have no interest in going back and forth on this point. As far as my "leg to stand on" goes, like I mentioned earlier, Witwer's narrative is supported by TFU2's endings. If Starkiller attempts to kill Vader instead of capture him, the Dark Apprentice intervenes and slaughters him, but if Starkiller instead chooses to capture Vader instead of kill him, the Dark Apprentice doesn't make any move to stop him. I'm not sure how you could make sense of that if getting captured wasn't part of Vader's plan.

A 3rd person limited (or limited-omniscient, **** off Karpyshyn) narrator. It's abundantly clear in-context that Vader's actual thoughts and intentions are not known to Starkiller or the audience. Half of the scene is Starkiller wondering why Vader was doing any of the things he was.

No, "Old Wounds" is explicitly stated to be "Infinities" in that article and many places elsewhere.

https://i.imgur.com/qzTd7FO.png

Except every time Maul actually landed a blow on Vader - physical or via a lightsaber - it was via directly facing and fighting Vader on an established and open platform. Only a small segment of the battle centered around the two actually jumping across them. Also, as circled in blue here, you can see all the relevant parts of the fight take place on one of three relatively large platforms. No where does Maul's advantage to navigate the platforms come into play besides his backflips, which he can do in any environment regardless. For example, the below blow has nothing to do with an agility advantage.

https://i.imgur.com/VpeL2KT.png

Maul landed a blow against Vader without Jar'Kai which would have crippled him if not for the armor. As I said in my last post, "while the wounds are superficial thanks to his durability, they still are indicative of TFU Vader's inability to defend against Maul in lightsaber skill and/or Force augmentation." As for Jar'Kai itself, Maul doesn't even beat Vader through speed. They engage in a bladelock, and Maul (again) overpowers Vader, pushing his right arm past Vader's left.

https://i.imgur.com/4sAifIx.png

I'm not sure why that isn't an example of Plagueis "freely using his telekinesis" either. Vader using telekinesis clearly shows his willingness to do it in battle - the fact he doesn't make any direct telekinetic attacks against Maul, despite ample golden opportunities, suggests an inability to. The same is true for Maul against Vader, but I'm not arguing Maul's capable of landing Force blows against Vader, just that he's around or more powerful than Vader in the Force, as expressed through superior Force augmentated speed and strength, and demonstrably greater than him overall.

Starkiller is more exhausted against TFU Vader than he was after spending thirteen days straight without food, drink, or sleep and surviving solely on the Force. That would be the critical, deciding factor of any fight. The text doesn't need to repeatedly emphasize this fact to keep it true. Again, I'm pretty sure you attribute Luke being amped by Leia as the critical, deciding factor of his fight versus Sheev, despite the comic not even mentioning an amp.

Force users can temporarily block their physical fatigue with the Force, but there's consistent precedent across almost all Star Wars sources that Force users can't just off-the-cuff use the Force to replenish their Force reserves. Luke in Fate of the Jedi states he can't replenish his Force reserves quickly, and his power would slowly regain only through rest and food: He felt weary. Well, wearier. That last fight on Almania had stolen a lot of his strength. Keeping himself going despite his injury had taken more. And now this. What he had sacrificed he would eventually regain, after rest and food and meditation, but for now he felt tired to his bones. There's also examples of this with Bane, Maul, Anakin, and Obi-Wan. Or, just sticking with The Force Unleashed 2, Starkiller demonstrably can't just whisk away his Force fatigue across the thirteen days of torture; he suffers from its cumulative effects to the brink of death. So, Starkiller obviously can't just lift an even greater level of exhaustion while also fighting TFU Vader.

Except Vader actively taunts Starkiller to kill him in the light side version ("Strike me down. It is your destiny. This is your destiny.&quot, which makes no sense if his plan is to be taken prisoner. Vader's essentially baiting Starkiller to kill himself.

On a different note, I'm not convinced the Dark Apprentice killing Starkiller would even play out in actual continuity. The omniscient narrator of The Ultimate Visual Guide states, "Despite his advantage and animosity toward Vader, Starkiller spares the Sith Lord's life," and The Essential Reader's Companion states, "Starkiller defeats the Dark Lord, ordering him to surrender." These quotes suggest Starkiller forced Vader to surrender (i.e. "ordering him to surrender&quot and had control over whether Vader lived or died ("Despite his advantage, Starkiller spares the Sith Lord's life.&quot. Since this is coming from an omniscient narrator, it'd be terribly misleading to say Starkiller held an "advantage" over and "spared" Vader yet omit Vader actually had the Dark Apprentice standing behind Starkiller ready to strike the whole time.

Starkiller's already fought and brutalized Vader on the Death Star. He's clearly aware of Vader's powers and abilities based on that fight, so the narrator's observation that Vader's giving it his all is reliable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF-HEE6PepI

LordOfTheLight

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
So are we all settled on Vader&gt;Dooku&gt;Maul yet?

Aside from Ant and DS0 yeah.

Ant is basically playing the role of AP in the Malak vs Kun debate here

DarthAnt66

I don't recall there being a factually true statement that I'm arguing to mean military power. More the opposite - I'm citing a fight and everyone's ignoring it, lmao.

DarthSkywalker0

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Aside from Ant and DS0 yeah.

Ant is basically playing the role of AP in the Malak vs Kun debate here

Great counter.

LordOfTheLight

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
Great counter.

I'll just wait for Az to crush it

Involve Kenobi though, and the game is on.

DarthSkywalker0

Just answer my question on the Yareal Poof blog, please?

LordOfTheLight

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
Just answer my question on the Yareal Poof blog, please?

The tags never seem to work on CV

Trocity

I'm pretty shocked about Syndicate's views on this, seeing as how this would just make Galen Marek appear less impressive.

NewGuy01

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, "Old Wounds" is explicitly stated to be "Infinities" in that article and many places elsewhere.
https://i.imgur.com/qzTd7FO.png

Uh, no, it's not. Leland specifically says in the comments:

And Old Wounds is clearly listed in the article, right next to the part you highlighted. As for it being said to be Infinities elsewhere, well, now we've come full circle. Your argument just now for SWT9 not being classified as Infinities revolves around Chee's endorsement; don't backtrack now.

That blow also didn't accomplish anything; it was absorbed by Vader's armor. If your point is that Maul was able to bypass Vader's guard, then fine, but Vader did the same to Maul when he split his lightsaber, despite it also not accomplishing anything.

Which is irrelevant because Vader is always armored. What you're arguing is the equivalent of me saying "Vader's strike would have disarmed Maul if his lightsaber wasn't double-bladed!"

You keep saying that, but they're not mutually exclusive. They were in a bladelock, Maul attempted to attack with his off hand, Vader took an arm away from the bladelock to push away Maul's arm, Maul punched him, and then struck with his free hand before Vader could recover. Sure, Maul also was fairly successful grappling with Vader (I never said he wasn't), but his advantage in that exchange can largely be chalked up to him being able to attack from both sides simultaneously, which Vader had difficulty keeping up with. Because he's heavy, which is the disadvantage that comes with his armor and prosthesis; the advantage being that he can shrug off things like getting stabbed in the gut, unlike Maul.

Yeah, that is not, and has never been a valid argument. There are plenty of examples of less powerful characters that are as fast or faster than more powerful ones, like Raskta/Bane, or Raskta/Farfalla for that matter. Skill in one field of force use not necessarily indicative of skill in other fields. Furthermore, in this case, Vader is far heavier than Maul, so his augmentation would need to be far greater in order to move equally quickly.

As for Maul being "around or more powerful than Vader," based on Vader not attacking him directly with the Force, we don't really need your guesswork with regards to that; their respective, well documented force feats really speak for themselves, especially if you're keeping with the narrative that Ressurection Maul ~ TPM Maul.

Also, for the record, I don't even agree with your conclusion that Maul couldn't have landed force blows on Vader. Weaker force users affecting stronger Force users with their powers isn't that uncommon, especially when they're comparable as duelists. The more likely explanation is that his abstinence from force-based attacks stemmed from TPM-era Maul's preference of physical combat.

A comic book is not the same as a novel. The majority of the information in a comic book comes from visuals, whereas in a novel the information comes entirely from the description of events. It's unreasonable to expect details to be spelled out in a comic book; that's not unreasonable to expect from a novel.

Temporary is enough.

He wasn't simply tired, though; he was also injured, and apparently something else was also contributing to his condition, although I'm not sure what since you omitted that context.

Once again, that's a situation that involves not only exhaustion, but also malnutrition and torture. And even in that situation, in the short term, he managed just fine; he casually wrecked a group of AT-STs with a thrown communications tower within seconds of escaping.

And yet, regardless of whether or not Starkiller decides to go for the kill, Vader is in a position to turn the tables. The fact that he goes along with it if Starkiller decides to capture him and take him to a hidden Rebel base is pretty compelling evidence, particularly because it aligns perfectly with Witwer's narrative.

Starkiller has a vision of it happening in the novel while he's on Dagobah (and it's even mentioned in the scene where he decides to spare Vader), which I'd say is fair evidence for it being a legitimate possibility. I believe Dark Apprentice's existence is referenced in secondary sources as well.

Not at all. Starkiller being in a position of advantage is obvious; by design or not, Vader is disarmed and under his blade. That's why the Dark Apprentice would need to step in to begin with. As for Starkiller "ordering" Vader to surrender, that's just a statement of fact, not a suggestion that it was against Vader's will.

Witwer's narrative obviously implies that Vader either became stronger between the two games (which wouldn't be unusual, given that he was no doubt humiliated after the first one), or that he held back in their first battle as well.

https://i20.servimg.com/u/f20/17/76/23/63/webp_n11.jpg

By the way, when you reply, could you try and make it more succinct? I've been responding because I don't want to leave you hanging, but I didn't make my initial comment with the intention of spending time debating about it, nor am I interested in doing so. I really don't care much about this stuff anymore--you know that. If there's something you want to go over in detail, just bring it up in chat sometime and we can discuss it.

DarthAnt66

Real quick so you can edit, "Visionaries" is "Old Wounds." Wattoo dies in "Old Wounds" aka "Visionaries, which is a "non-continuity death."

NewGuy01

Yes, and it's the only non-continuity death on the list per Chee, and Maul's death in Old Wounds is on the list. He lists Watto's death as being non-continuity because he appeared later in Galaxies, not because it happened in Visionaries.

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Yes, and it's the only non-continuity death on the list per Chee, and Maul's death in Old Wounds is on the list. He lists Watto's death as being non-continuity because he appeared later in Galaxies, not because it happened in Visionaries.

Chee doesn't formally list Maul's death in "Visionaries" under "Resurrections" either. Chee just files Maul's death in "Visionaries" as a "note" to the Tales 9 death. I'd say the fact that Watto's death in "Old Wounds" is non-canon suggests the entirety of "Old Wounds" is non-canon, regardless of "Galaxies." The fact Chee clarifies "Visionaries" is non-canon on another blog per Wookieepedia makes that clear. We also have Star Wars Insider independently canonizing Tales 9 regardless.

Not that 16 BBY Obi-Wan defeating 16 BBY Maul holds any relevance to this debate anyway.

For whatever it's worth, doesn't Lucas' statement that(I'm paraphrasing) the PT featured duelists in their prime while the OT had half-trained children and broken down(robot) men support Maul&gt;Vader?

TheIndyJedi

Originally posted by Unbowed
For whatever it's worth, doesn't Lucas' statement that(I'm paraphrasing) the PT featured duelists in their prime while the OT had half-trained children and broken down(robot) men support Maul&gt;Vader?

"PT featured duelists in their prime".
What? Like Coleman Trebor?
Lmao. I really don't understand why people use Lucas's quotes as evidence these days. The guy said it himself, he doesn't give a shit about the EU. So why should we keep on reciting the same quotes from him when he doesn't even see the EU as part of his canon. Yeh sure movie vader i.e Lucas canon Vader is probably inferior to the likes of Count Dooku, Maul and Obi Wan. But EU Vader isn't.

DarthAnt66

-

DarthAnt66

I've agreed from the start Vader's always armored. However, there's still many factors to lightsaber duels - such as technical skill and Force augmentation - that Maul's first blow still speaks toward.

Vader didn't bypass Maul's guard, at least not in comparable fashion to Maul's earlier attack. Vader stuck Maul's two-foot hilt, which is a far cry from striking Maul himself. Even then, Maul angled his staff so Vader cut perfectly down the middle, thereby mitigating Vader's attack through legitimate skill. And I disagree: Maul wouldn't have been disarmed if he had a single-blade; Maul's hilt would have angled differently than with a staff.

As for Vader's durability, yes, it shrugged off Maul's first attack, but Maul proceeded to disarm Vader despite the armor anyway. Thus, Maul showcased superior skill and/or Force augmentation with his first strike, and reaffirmed not only his superior abilities but that such are great enough to also overcome Vader's main advantage also with his second.

Also, even if I fully agree with your argument, that still clocks TFU Vader and TPM Maul relativistic, whereas Dooku's a step above per Obi-Wan Kenobi and Nick Gillard, so my overall argument holds.

Yes, Maul had success in grappling Vader - he literally wins the exchange. However, I don't see how Vader had difficulty keeping up with both lightsabers. Maul could replicate his actions here with just one lightsber, and Vader has extensive experience against Jar'Kai. His failings speaks less to his inability to fend off two lightsabers and more toward Maul's superior abilities.

Vader's physical strength and weight would only benefit him in this grapple, yet he's still knocked backward with Maul's punch.

Except Maul shows both greater physical speed and strength than Vader. Maul lands his first strike by physically pushing back Vader's blade across his armor, and he later disarms Vader through a physical exchange.

If Vader was significantly more powerful than Maul, he would have used the Force to gain an advantage against him. Vader's not constrained by any Jedi morals on "how the Force ought to work" like Luke or Kyp and, even if it's just breaking tree branches, he shows a willingness to use it against Maul in less direct ways.

It's hypocritical to expect repeated confirmations from a novel yet only require a single visual that ambiguously suggests something from a comic book.

--- --- ---

Physical exhaustion can be temporarily blocked - although definitely not as long as two prolonged fights with Vader, separated by multiple minutes - but Starkiller's fatigue is rooted in Force reserves. Starkiller's almost out of Force energy since he just released almost the totality of his power twice-over in a short span of time.

Sure, but my argument focuses on the exhaustion anyway. Starkiller burned away Force energy for thirteen days sustaining himself without food or sleep. The Starkiller that fights Vader shares that same loss of power to an even greater extent, meaning all his Force powers and Force augmentation are a fraction of their standard potency and levels. The fact he wrecked AT-STs even on the brink of death speaks to his tremendous overall power. Starkiller at 5% can perform feats most Force users can't do at their 100%, such as defeating Vader.

If Vader's goading Starkiller to kill him, his plan is clearly to capture or kill Starkiller. Thus, there's no reason why Vader would be holding back during the fight. Vader going along with the alternative since it can potentially also yield positive benefits doesn't contradict that. I also doubt Vader could have even known ahead of time that Kota would take him to a "secret rebel base" and "put him on trial" in front of all the Rebellion leaders. Like Sidious in Revenge of the Sith, I don't see why Vader can't just be shifting his plans as new opportunities present themselves.

2.) That Darth Vader grew astronomically in power between 2 BBY and 1 BBY and/or wanted to get ass-raped by Marek.

--- --- ---

I spent a significant amount of time making this as short as possible. Obviously you don't have to respond to all the points, which you haven't even been doing in the past posts, but feel free to respond to whatever and/or just address my general overall argument that all of this is centered around:

Originally posted by Unbowed
For whatever it's worth, doesn't Lucas' statement that(I'm paraphrasing) the PT featured duelists in their prime while the OT had half-trained children and broken down(robot) men support Maul&gt;Vader?

Yes, but he also said that Vader is more powerful than Maul in a later interview, and it's been confirmed a few times over that Vader, Dooku, and Maul fit into the same "level" in Lucas's unofficial duelist ranking system. I just take that quote as him hyping up the faster paced lightsaber duels in TPM, to be honest.

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Yes, but he also said that Vader is more powerful than Maul in a later interview
????

Either I blocked this out of my head (which is plausible) or you're misremembering, lol.

NewGuy01

I'm not misremembering, it just hasn't come up in a long time. I'm not sure exactly what it was from, but it was on tape, not some random quote floating around. I remember the quote and the context; text me if you're interested in trying to find it.

DarthAnt66

That seems like a particularly relevant quote, lol. Let's find it (if it exists).

AncientPower

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I don't recall there being a factually true statement that I'm arguing to mean military power.

Kek. No. My only point there was that Cory was hardly being outright about his statement. The actual debunk is within the article itself.

DarthSkywalker0

Originally posted by Trocity
I'm pretty shocked about Syndicate's views on this, seeing as how this would just make Galen Marek appear less impressive.

Harrison's been making the last few comments.

DarthSkywalker0

Just going to point out a flaw in a point made by Sas:

Originally posted by NewGuy01
A comic book is not the same as a novel. The majority of the information in a comic book comes from visuals, whereas in a novel the information comes entirely from the description of events. It's unreasonable to expect details to be spelled out in a comic book; that's not unreasonable to expect from a novel.

Starkiller is actively shown to be in a state where he struggles to lift a large ship out of the water some time after having passed out from blowing apart the Salvation. This occurs as he makes his way across the Kaminoan facility where he has ample time to "replenish his energies" in a similar manner to Dooku. This means one of three things; the manner in which Dooku ( and presumably Starkiller ) replenished himself does not allow them to actually replenish their power in the Force but rather their physical states, Starkiller was left in a state where he was unable to replenish his Force energies OR he was never able to do so in the first place. The only other option would be if you're suggesting he had the opportunity to do so and simply chose not to for some reason...

And a flaw in a point point made by Ant:

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
If Vader was significantly more powerful than Maul, he would have used the Force to gain an advantage against him. Vader's not constrained by any Jedi morals on "how the Force ought to work" like Luke or Kyp and, even if it's just breaking tree branches, he shows a willingness to use it against Maul in less direct ways.

Ant may not be aware of this but the acolytes outright state that, while they are confident that the Maul doppleganger they brought back with the Darkside is capable of beating Vader in a DUEL-

Side Tangent: In fact, they are so confident that they even deny the reality of the situation upon the doppelganger's defeat with one of them stating that "it is not possible" and many expressing surprise that Vader is able to even put up a fight against Maul early on in the duel, though still confident that the doppelganger would ultimately win out. I find this rather intriguing and suggestive in regards to what the doppelganger actually is when taken together with the implication that Vader could easily destroy the doppleganger with the Force, but that's an idea to tackle at a later date.

https://i.imgur.com/iMvROeZ.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/3civGfM.jpg?1

they are NOT confident, however, that Vader isn't capable of destroying all of them with the Force on the spot ( which would include the doppleganger they control ) and seek to persuade him that doing so would diminish him in the Emperor's eyes and be against his best interests as a result.

https://i.imgur.com/sybXCyt.jpg

The text highlighted in blue is the issue of the Emperor allowing them to carry out their scheme that Vader brings up and the acolyte's subsequent justification.

The text highlighted in red is of course the issue of VADER allowing them to carry out their scheme which the acolytes grant is an issue but one they use reasoning ( the green text ) to convince him goes against his best interests.

( A post by Syndiciate )

DarthSkywalker0

This is per Syndicate, as he failed to note.

DarthSkywalker0

https://i.imgur.com/nFwcIy1.png

Ummm...

NewGuy01

&gt;last edited at 11:11

DarthSkywalker0

Originally posted by NewGuy01
&gt;last edited at 9:11

And posted on a jew's account.

https://media.giphy.com/media/7GcdjWkek7Apq/giphy.gif

NewGuy01

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I spent a significant amount of time making this as short as possible.

I believe you and appreciate the effort. This isn't short at all, though, and I will be cutting it down.

I know; the idea that there are many factors that can influence the outcome of a duel frankly fits my argument better than yours.

He did, actually.

Obviously if Maul were using a single blade, Vader would have angled his strike differently, but never mind that. It was just an example, and the pointlessness of the claim was the point.

See Syndicate's post. It's needlessly long winded and he takes it farther than I would, but his argument is consistent with my impression. As for the other part of his post (and, by extension, yours), I may or may not address it later.

No idea what you're on about. Gillard has Maul, Dooku, and Vader all as level 8's, and you already brought up Lucas grouping the three of them together earlier in the thread. They're all relative to each other, and to Kenobi.

Also, you keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

But here's the thing--Vader didn't have any opportunity to improvise. It's the Dark Apprentice, on Vader's orders, who does or doesn't act depending on the player's choice. This suggests that the situation was planned in advance. And, once again, this is all consistent with what we were told by Witwer, who was involved with the development of the game and discussed the drafts for the sequel with the person who wrote the story. You're essentially ignoring this in favor of some throwaway dialogue (which could easily be taken as simple reverse psychology, given that Starkiller's choice has no bearing on Vader's ability to kill him) that's only present in a version of the story you don't even consider legitimate for use in debates.

And Sidious also planned his similar encounter, you goddamn heretic.

TheIndyJedi

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Yes, but he also said that Vader is more powerful than Maul in a later interview, and it's been confirmed a few times over that Vader, Dooku, and Maul fit into the same "level" in Lucas's unofficial duelist ranking system. I just take that quote as him hyping up the faster paced lightsaber duels in TPM, to be honest.

Interesting..... And yeh if we are going to take that "prime duelists" quote seriously.
Then Coleman Trebor&gt;Vader
Qui Gon&gt;Vader
TPM Kenobi&gt;Vader
And I'm pretty sure nobody here would even dare to admit that.

The duel is to find out who's greater between Maul and Vader. If Vader can destroy Maul with the Force, he's the undisputed greater, particularly for the rule of Sith apprentice.

In the fight, Vader says "You think you know the dark side? This is what the dark side can do," then flexes his dark side abilities through telekinesis. Unless you're insinuating that the unwritten rules of the debate is you can do anything besides touch Maul with the Force, that's a direct indicator Force usage is allowed.

Atrocious argument.

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by NewGuy01
No idea what you're on about. Gillard has Maul, Dooku, and Vader all as level 8's, and you already brought up Lucas grouping the three of them together earlier in the thread. They're all relative to each other, and to Kenobi.

Dooku and Maul are both 8s, but there's still a "huge difference" within 8 itself: Dooku & Maul are 8, but there is a huge difference inside the numbers themselves, it's not about how well they fight, it's about how well they learned. As you know, the gap between 4 to 5 is greater than 4 to 3, 4 to 3 is greater than 3 to 2, etc. Tier 8 is so vast it fits Dooku and the Anakin that forced Dooku on the brink of unconsciousness simultaneously.

Plus, there's Obi-Wan's testimony that Dooku's noticeably more formidable than Maul: His thoughts turned to his battle with Dooku. He had never met such power in battle before. He had never come up against something that had completely overpowered him. Even meeting the Sith Lord who had killed Qui-Gon had not been the same.

So, while I agree Dooku and Maul are comparable, there's still a very noticeable gap between them.

(Repeating myself a little bit since you didn't respond to some of these points, which is fine since my last post was long, lol.)

Per the narrator of The Force Unleashed 2, Vader went all-out against Starkiller. While the narrator isn't omniscient, it's fully aware of Vader's powers in The Force Unleashed, where a.) there's no reason why Vader would hold back, b.) Palpatine explicitly tells Vader to "deal with the boy," and c.) Marek's convinced Vader is giving it everything: "His Master had either held back, or he himself had capitulated. Now, for the first time, they would see each other's true potential. . . Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal." That's overwhelming evidence in favor of Marek legitimately defeating Vader.

Even if we assume Vader held back in The Force Unleashed 2 for a moment, it's clear he gave an equal or greater effort to The Force Unleashed to fool the narrator, yet a near-death, Force reserve depleted Starkiller's able to match that (i.e. TFU 2 Starkiller &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; near-dead TFU 2 Starkiller &gt; TFU 2 Darth Vader). If you want to argue Vader in The Force Unleashed 2's comparable or greater than Starkiller, you'd have to say Vader's growth in power in just one year exceeds the unfathomable energy loss Starkiller suffered (which Syndicate also touched on with an example), which isn't stated anywhere ever and a more seismic increase than Vader's ever shown.

As for your argument, the idea that Vader knew Kota would run out the exact moment Starkiller defeated him, calm him down, and suggest to take Vader to "a secret rebel base" where the entire Rebellion would be is highly implausible. Vader has the opportunity to improvise - he can call off the Dark Apprentice a variety of ways (they have the Force, you know). Also, the idea Vader threw the fight and that Vader's far weaker than Starkiller isn't mutually exclusive regardless.

And you do know that it's not actually referenced as a duel, right? That was simply the way I distinguished the acolytes confidence in the doppleganger's capabilities during a lightsaber bout and lack of confidence they had in regards to Vader's ability to prevent a comparison between himself and the doppelganger in the first place. :/

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The duel is to find out who's greater between Maul and Vader. If Vader can destroy Maul with the Force, he's the undisputed greater, particularly for the rule of Sith apprentice.

The problem with such an interpretation is that the acolytes specify they have unwavering confidence in Maul's ability to defeat Vader upon the two engaging in a lightsaber bout. They express uncertainty when it comes to whether or not Vader could stop them from proving Maul is the superior apprentice then and there as I highlighted in my last post. How do you account for this disparity in disposition and the subsequent request by the acolytes for Vader NOT to act in a way that would halt their plans? The alternative I proposed is the only reasonable solution I was able to find, perhaps you believe there to be another?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
In the fight, Vader says "You think you know the dark side? This is what the dark side can do," then flexes his dark side abilities through telekinesis.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how Vader animating a few stormtroopers is an attempt to directly overwhelm Maul's Force defenses.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Unless you're insinuating that the unwritten rules of the debate is you can do anything besides touch Maul with the Force, that's a direct indicator Force usage is allowed.

Like it or not ( and I know how much you dislike it ), that's exactly what's implied by the text.

Again, if you have some alternative interpretation, I'd be happy to hear it.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Atrocious argument.

It's a matching set then given your atrocious response.

( A post by Syndiciate )

Zenwolf

So what's all this got to do with Caedus and Krayt?

DarthAnt66

You literally capitalized the word "DUEL." Anyway, it *is* actually referenced as "a duel to the death," but let's address your argument.

A plausible alternative is that Maul's existence is contingent on the Prophets' survival. It's not clear how Maul was resurrected, but if he functions anything like a doppelganger, then he exists only as long as the creator does per the Dark Side Sourcebook. So, the Prophets saying that Vader could possibly kill them all then and there is pretty easily explained.

Then, consider your alternative - you're saying "a duel to the death" where both are trying to test who's "better" and "superior" in respect of being the heir to Bane and Sidious' apprentice doesn't actually include Force usage.

DarthSkywalker0

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
A plausible alternative is that Maul's existence is contingent on the Prophets' survival. It's not clear how Maul was resurrected, but if he functions anything like a doppelganger, then he exists only as long as the creator does per the Dark Side Sourcebook. So, the Prophets saying that Vader could possibly kill them all then and there is pretty easily explained.

And that's exactly my point. If the acolytes aren't confident that they could stop such an event and the Maul doppleganger is indeed powered BY the acolytes then the doppleganger surely is less comparable as a Force user then he is as a lightsaber combatant. Otherwise, why would the acolytes worry about Vader being able to destroy all of them?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Then, consider your alternative - you're saying "a duel to the death" where both are trying to test who's "better" and "superior" in respect of being the heir to Bane and Sidious' apprentice doesn't actually include Force usage.

The acolytes dialogue and Vader's subsequent response leaves us room for little else. What do YOU believe they meant when they reference Vader carrying out "a deed that would diminish him in the Emperor's eyes?" One that would lead to the potential destruction of the acolytes and the Maul doppelganger.

https://i.imgur.com/xVwYKe3.jpg?1

( A post by Syndiciate )

DarthAnt66

Uh, no. Maul's survival being contingent on the Prophets and the Prophets being less powerful than Vader aren't mutually exclusive. The Prophets' resurrection of Maul clearly took years of ample sorcery, knowledge, time, etc.

Vader killing the Prophets and not having a fair fight with Maul clearly "would diminish him in the Emperor's eyes."

DarthSkywalker0

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Uh, no. Maul's survival being contingent on the Prophets and the Prophets being less powerful than Vader aren't mutually exclusive. The Prophets' resurrection of Maul clearly took years of ample sorcery, knowledge, time, etc.

So, to clarify, you're suggesting the Maul doppleganger's existence is dependent on the acolytes but he possesses power independent of them?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Vader killing the Prophets and not having a fair fight with Maul clearly "would diminish him in the Emperor's eyes."

You said "not having a fair fight with Maul" just now but earlier you were claiming that a fight to decide who is worthy of being Sidious's apprentice would involve a no holds barred fight between the two. I imagine this is referencing the above viewpoint but if not, I'm curious as to what you would consider a "fair fight."

( A post by Syndicate )

DarthSkywalker0

Furthermore, if the Maul doppleganger can act independently of the acolytes ( which he clearly can ) then how would Vader be capable of killing the acolytes with the Maul doppelganger present?

( A post by Syndicate )

DarthAnt66

I don't see why that's implausible - especially considering the alternative. The Prophets spent years molding and resurrecting Maul through years of sorcery and arcane magics. Their power isn't necessarily indicative of Maul's. Still, that doesn't mean their active existence and powers isn't necessary for Maul's continued existence. You asked for another explanation - that's mine, and it makes more sense than two Sith Lords duking it out to see who's "greater" or "superior" and "worthy" yet not use the most important and relevant indicator of strength.

Lmao, you misinterpreted me. By, "Vader killing the Prophets and not having a fair fight with Maul clearly "would diminish him in the Emperor's eyes," I meant that Vader can't even fight Maul in that situation following my argument.

Uh, by stabbing them? By choking them? Maul likely can't guard all of them simultaneously, hence why the Prophets say, "You might even succeed." Even earlier in the comic, Maul chokes Vader's stormtroopers with Vader seemingly unable to stop him - the same can be true in reverse.

DarthAnt66

Also, I'm not sure how Vader's significantly more powerful than Maul like you suggest when Maul shows greater Force augmented speed and strength, which is a fair indicator of Force strength.

DarthSkywalker0

I'll respond sometime tomorrow evening. Going to the beach early tomorrow so I'll be gone most of the day.

( A post by Syndicate )

Zenwolf

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

, Maul chokes Vader's stormtroopers with Vader seemingly unable to stop him - the same can be true in reverse.

Eh, quick thing. The Prophets killed the Troopers and he wasn't aware of what was going on until they revealed themselves. Though Maul did kill the others outside.

Trocity

I can't remember the comic all that well but isn't there also a chance that Vader probably didn't care if the troopers died?

DarthSkywalker0

Shhhh Trocity. That doesn't fit with the narrative. Obviously Vader would have cared about saving those stormtroopers just as much as the doppleganger would have cared about saving the people allowing him to exist. :P

DarthAnt66

That point isn't remotely relevant to my argument, just an example, lol. If Maul fights Dooku and three weaponless Jedi, it's reasonable to think he might kill some of them on his way out.

Regardless, I doubt Vader would just let his support needlessly die and, while who's doing it isn't important, it's not even clear whether Maul or the Prophets kill them, so let's focus on the actual argument than attempting (and failing) to nitpick minor points.

Zenwolf

The argument between Caedus vs Krayt right? Because that's what this thread should be about.

DarthAnt66

Just be thankful this dead forum is having any discussion.

TheIndyJedi

The thread changed the moment Darth Ant said Dooku&gt;Vader lol.

DarthSkywalker0

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I don't see why that's implausible - especially considering the alternative. The Prophets spent years molding and resurrecting Maul through years of sorcery and arcane magics. Their power isn't necessarily indicative of Maul's. Still, that doesn't mean their active existence and powers isn't necessary for Maul's continued existence. You asked for another explanation - that's mine, and it makes more sense than two Sith Lords duking it out to see who's "greater" or "superior" and "worthy" yet not use the most important and relevant indicator of strength.

If the doppelganger is &gt; Vader as a Force user and Vader is &gt; the acolytes why would his existence be dependent on beings less powerful then himself? At that point, shouldn't he be capable of sustaining himself with his own superior powers especially since we know he can act independently of the acolytes?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lmao, you misinterpreted me. By, "Vader killing the Prophets and not having a fair fight with Maul clearly "would diminish him in the Emperor's eyes," I meant that Vader can't even fight Maul in that situation following my argument.

That's exactly how I interpreted your argument actually as is made evidence when I mention when I state "I imagine this in reference to the above viewpoint." I only wanted to give you the opportunity to explain your position if it turned out that was NOT your stance. Glad that's been sorted out though.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Uh, by stabbing them? By choking them? Maul likely can't guard all of them simultaneously, hence why the Prophets say, "You might even succeed." Even earlier in the comic, Maul chokes Vader's stormtroopers with Vader seemingly unable to stop him - the same can be true in reverse.

You really think Vader could kill the all of the acolytes before someone who is apparently more powerful and more skilled could stop him? Or at least put him in a highly disadvantageous position?

DarthSkywalker0

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Regardless, I doubt Vader would just let his support needlessly die and, while who's doing it isn't important, it's not even clear whether Maul or the Prophets kill them, so let's focus on the actual argument than attempting (and failing) to nitpick minor points.

I doubt Vader would leave himself vulnerable to a counter attack in order to defend 2 stormtroopers that wouldn't make any difference in a fight against another Force user on his level ( as you're asserting ).

DarthAnt66

-

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
If the doppelganger is &gt; Vader as a Force user and Vader is &gt; the acolytes why would his existence be dependent on beings less powerful then himself? At that point, shouldn't he be capable of sustaining himself with his own superior powers especially since we know he can act independently of the acolytes?

The comic's deliberately vague on how Maul was created/resurrected. There's no way to comment on how it works, but it's obviously far more complex than just sheer Force power. However, as I said, if Maul functions anything like an actual doppelganger (which you keep referring to him as), then his his existence *is* dependent on the Prophets. I really don't think buying that is far fetched, especially considering Maul's some freak of nature created through arcane means.

Again, it's that or that a contest over who's the "greater"or "superior" Sith Lord, who's "worthy" to be the reigning Dark Lord of the Sith, who has more "hate" and understanding of the "dark side," actually excludes the most important factor to Sith Lords. Further, no one even announces this strange rule, yet apparently everyone seems to know it anyway. Plus, it doesn't reconcile how Maul's able to have greater Force augmented strength and speed than Vader if he's significantly less powerful like you suggest.

Your interpretation makes no logical sense. Mine has precedent in lore and, while some aspects of it are admittedly ambiguous, so is Maul's existence as a whole.

It's definitely a "maybe," which is what the Prophets say also. Maul's demonstrably better than Vader, but there's no vast gap between them, and the Prophets are weaponless. It's not remotely far fetched to think Vader can kill some of them.

How would Vader saving them from Force choke leave himself vulnerable to counter attack, lmao? And Vader has no clue who he's about to fight.

DarthAnt66

Also, the Prophets are literally standing like a foot from Vader. He could extend his arm and stab them.

https://i.imgur.com/0DgNyEN.png

I'd be shocked if Vader couldn't kill some of them right then and them, even with Maul nearby.

DarthSkywalker0

I suppose that last point is fair but your entire argument is predicated on the idea that the doppelganger requires the acolytes to keep existing despite apparently being an autonomous being who possesses greater power then them. An idea that you haven't exactly made a very convincing argument for.

I'll respond to the rest tomorrow.

NewGuy01

It does seem to depend on whether you assume they meant "you could just kill us and thereby destroy Maul, but you'd never know if you could do so directly," or "you could just bury us and Maul in rubble and walk away, but you'd never know who was the better warrior."

DarthSkywalker0

AncientPower

It honestly makes no sense that an entire story centered around pitting Maul against Vader would compromise the veracity of such a showdown by depicting a Maul that isn't actually the same Maul seen in TPM; with the same power and strength.

It's redundant as a plot otherwise.

DarthSkywalker0

Or maybe the point of the comic was to feature a fight and have a title that they knew would sell well and not to accurately assess Maul and Vader's relative power levels...

Maybe the fact that Legends has numerous sources with redundant plots should have clued you in that avoiding them isn't their biggest priority...

Just a thought.

DarthSkywalker0

In fairness, most Star Wars fights are created for that purpose, but that doesn't invalidate the events themselves.

NewGuy01

True, we're the ones participating in a redundant exercise.

AncientPower

The difference being that the entire point of this story is that clash. It's answering the question everybody had the moment those end credits played in 1999. It's not like it was one part of a greater whole. It was literally the reason the comic existed in EU.

I'm not saying this means the fight has to lack any circumstances, I am saying that the argument against it being valid isn't favored by the source's purpose.

Trocity

Didn't the comic also come out like right after TPM? It seems pretty clear they wanted to sell the comic because they knew people would want to see "That badass red and black sith against Vader", and they had Vader win but Maul do very well; he was the hot new, "cool" thing after all. I really don't think they cared about other material/sources/etc., or how much better Vader is/was supposed to be than Maul, honestly.

Then again, maybe he was just viewed as a shitty slow robot man back then.

DarthSkywalker0

@AncientPower: The comic existed to sell. Whether or not it answered the question of who was superior or even accurately represented the versions of the characters that they were standing in for is left ambiguous.

One could reasonably point out that the version of Vader we see in the comic is pre prime since he is confirmed to grow both in power and skill throughout the OT. In that regard, we never see these characters face each other in their relative "primes." Perhaps that's because it was never the comic's intention to provide an accurate answer for that question...

AncientPower

I guess we'll have to differ, but I maintain that your interpretation renders the battle irrelevant. Ant's merely points out the ramifications of what happened in the fight.

DarthSkywalker0

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The comic's deliberately vague on how Maul was created/resurrected. There's no way to comment on how it works, but it's obviously far more complex than just sheer Force power.

The comic actually goes into a bit of detail on how exactly the doppelganger was created, implying that he was "molded" by them.

https://i.imgur.com/31df12Q.jpg

This would seem to indicate that he's a being of Force energy ( which they supplied ) that they molded into the form of Darth Maul.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
However, as I said, if Maul functions anything like an actual doppelganger (which you keep referring to him as), then his his existence *is* dependent on the Prophets.

Maul being a "doppleganger" in no way necessitates that his existence is reliant on that of the prophets staying alive.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I really don't think buying that is far fetched, especially considering Maul's some freak of nature created through arcane means. Again, it's that or that a contest over who's the "greater"or "superior" Sith Lord, who's "worthy" to be the reigning Dark Lord of the Sith, who has more "hate" and understanding of the "dark side," actually excludes the most important factor to Sith Lords.

Problem is, the acolytes don't seem to be questioning Vader's fitness as an apprentice on a COMBATIVE level but rather in regards to how committed he is to the Darkside.

https://i.imgur.com/B1Wxfds.jpg

They go on to state that it is because "too much of the light remains within him" that he is unworthy to be a member of the Banite line.

This would make their main goal replacing Vader at any cost.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Further, no one even announces this strange rule, yet apparently everyone seems to know it anyway.

There's such a thing as implication. If the acolytes admit that Vader is capable of destroying them and the doppelganger but believe he would be defeated in a duel, it's clear they would expect him to not use the Force directly against the doppelganger if he were to prove to himself that he was truly Maul's better ( being Maul's better in this context relating to their relative skill as swordsmen ).

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Plus, it doesn't reconcile how Maul's able to have greater Force augmented strength and speed than Vader if he's significantly less powerful like you suggest.

The answer to this is rather simple.

1. As NewGuy brought up earlier, we see examples in the mythos where characters who possess inferior power to their opponents are as fast of faster then them ala instances like Raskta vs Bane or Obi Wan vs Dooku.

2. Vader's prosthetics may limit his ability to move as fast as his power in the Force might otherwise allow. I.E. while he can still accelerate his body to move at speeds around that of the doppelganger, he would not be able to do the same with his prosthetic limbs.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Your interpretation makes no logical sense. Mine has precedent in lore and, while some aspects of it are admittedly ambiguous, so is Maul's existence as a whole.

I fail to see how my interpretation is more "illogical then the suggestion that the doppelganger is simultaneously reliant on the acolytes in order to exist and more powerful then them. :/

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
How would Vader saving them from Force choke leave himself vulnerable to counter attack, lmao? And Vader has no clue who he's about to fight.

Because he has no idea how many Force sensitives are nearby or what kind of threat he's facing and diverting his attention away from his defenses in order to save some hapless stormtroopers would not be a wise decision...

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
The comic actually goes into a bit of detail on how exactly the doppelganger was created, implying that he was "molded" by them.

This would seem to indicate that he's a being of Force energy ( which they supplied ) that they molded into the form of Darth Maul.

That's literally the wildest interpretation of "molded" possible. Regardless, if true, then he likely functions like a doppelganger - also made of pure Force energy and contingent on the existence of the Prophets since they conjured him in the first place.

If he is a doppleganger, then he is reliant on the Prophets.

If he is at all comparable to a doppleganger, then he may be reliant on the Prophets.

Which kills your idea the fight is strictly physical even more. The Prophets dislike that Vader's a former Jedi and think that makes him weak, whereas they think Maul's endless devotion to the dark-side and unmatched hatred will allow him to destroy Vader in battle. To prove their belief that Maul's the greater, they want a "duel to the death" between the two.

That's genuinely retarded. If Vader's significantly more powerful than Maul and able to destroy him, he has nothing to prove. Vader would be the rightful heir to Bane, worthy apprentice to Palpatine, and the greater Sith Lord. A contest of strictly lightsaber skill has nothing to do with that. Tell me why Palpatine gives a **** who's the superior swordsman if Vader could just trash Maul with the Force anyway.

Yours has two unrecognizable flaws. There's literally nothing wrong with the other suggestion, given the arcane magics and lengthy time put into Maul's creation and the intentional ambiguity of how he was created, plus historical precedent with actual doppleganger's.

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by NewGuy01
It does seem to depend on whether you assume they meant "you could just kill us and thereby destroy Maul, but you'd never know if you could do so directly," or "you could just bury us and Maul in rubble and walk away, but you'd never know who was the better warrior."

Although my point is one has a lot more reasons not to assume that than the other.

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
An idea that you haven't exactly made a very convincing argument for.
I don't really have to make a super convincing argument, just a more convincing argument than yours.

DarthAnt66

Also, it's plausible the Prophets intentionally made Maul's existence dependent on their own to ensure favor and survival in Palpatine's court.

During the Rebellion era, dark side devotees become a bit more open, drawn by the power of the Emperor and their acceptance into his court.

LordOfTheLight

I am enjoying myself here but I couldn't resist jumping in for this

On the surface it looks to be nothing more than a surface injury. Fricking TPM Maul took numerous such injuries in battle against Kenobi and Jinn in an environment he had literally memorized not only mentally, but had also committed to "muscle memory" meaning he literally would not have to spend a conscious thought on the environment.

There is no reason the same advantage wouldn't be put into play here.

That's besides the point anyways. A mere surface nick is not going to affect Vader lmfao. Nor is it crippling by any means at all. Nor is it any indication of superiority unless you are going to insinuate that Maul was being outclassed on Naboo there.

This ignores that:

Maul could just as easily have done so by not pushing through Vader but freeing his arm and punching Vader by moving his right arm "above" Vader's left arm. Something which is what is traditionally followed by seasoned martial artists and frankly something which I would do or any person with common sense would so in the situation.

Maul could also have done it as it is there. Vader's head was well within reach of his arm, and he'd only have to extend it a little to punch him in the head.

Maul could have easily done it by rotating his body about its axis and letting the momentum carry into his arm and then punching Vader in the head and obviously, he would accomplish it by superior manuevering, not strength since Vader's left arm would be rendered useless as a defense for his head. Which is most likely what happens there since the first two panels show a lateral side of Maul, but the third panel shows his frontal side. For Vader all three panels show his lateral side.

Frankly, either of the above three scenarios make infinitely more sense and are likely to have occurred than Maul straight up overpowering Vader despite Vader having the advantage of leverage and torque in that particular scenario there. Meaning Maul's augmentation is a lot superior to Vader's and literally nothing indicates that throughout the course of the duel. Nor does it make even a bit of sense holistically speaking.

Exactly what other scenario indicates Maul overpowering Vader previously? Not the other picture you posted of Vader getting slashed, all Maul had to do was use the lower half of his blade and while that might count for a skill disparity between the two( which is minimal at absolute best considering the huge length of the duel), it says nothing about Vader's augmentation.

DarthSkywalker0

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That's literally the wildest interpretation of "molded" possible.

Don't really see why it'd be all that far fetched. That seems to be how most alchemical creations are made by Darksiders. I.E. using Force energy to craft a creature or being that utilizes and/or depends upon the Force in combat.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Regardless, if true, then he likely functions like a doppelganger - also made of pure Force energy and contingent on the existence of the Prophets since they conjured him in the first place.

If he is a doppleganger, then he is reliant on the Prophets.

If he is at all comparable to a doppleganger, then he may be reliant on the Prophets.

You have provided no evidence for the doppelganger's existence being contingent on the acolytes continued state of being. I can't fathom why you continue to insist on this point ( aside from stubborn pride ).

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Which kills your idea the fight is strictly physical even more. The Prophets dislike that Vader's a former Jedi and think that makes him weak, whereas they think Maul's endless devotion to the dark-side and unmatched hatred will allow him to destroy Vader in battle. To prove their belief that Maul's the greater, they want a "duel to the death" between the two.

You're literally making up motives. The prophets never note that Vader's strength is in issue. They state that the reason they wish to replace him is because he's tainted by the Lightside and presents too great a risk to the Darkside.

https://i.imgur.com/YbWMp8R.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/m2cDsPs.jpg

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That's genuinely retarded. If Vader's significantly more powerful than Maul and able to destroy him, he has nothing to prove. Vader would be the rightful heir to Bane, worthy apprentice to Palpatine, and the greater Sith Lord. A contest of strictly lightsaber skill has nothing to do with that. Tell me why Palpatine gives a **** who's the superior swordsman if Vader could just trash Maul with the Force anyway.

I never claimed Sidious cared either way. I stated that VADER would. And Vader would because he's above all prideful.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
If Maul's only faster, I'd agree, but he's demonstrably faster and stronger. That's clearly indicative of superior Force power.

I know you attempted to make this argument against NewGuy a few pages back. If you want to repost your argument or reference me to the posts which contain evidence for this claim that'd be great.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yours has two unrecognizable flaws.

Which you've failed to point out... Go ahead, enlighten us all on what these "unrecognizable flaws" are.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
There's literally nothing wrong with the other suggestion, given the arcane magics and lengthy time put into Maul's creation and the intentional ambiguity of how he was created, plus historical precedent with actual doppleganger's.

Outside of your idea that a being who is more powerful then the collective acolytes needs them to survive for some reason, I'd agree. As it is though, that's a pretty heft inconsistency that you have yet to account for other then to give a vague answer along the lines of "The Force works in mysterious ways."

DarthSkywalker0

The above will be my last post on this subject considering your last two responses had you repeating the same points without providing evidence and resorting to ad hominem out of seeming frustration. When you've calmed down feel free to let me know when you'd like to have a debate again rather then a tantrum.

DarthAnt66

victreebelvictr

This is fun to watch, I think Ant is ragdolling though.

DarthAnt66

https://i.imgur.com/k7lNckm.png

I agree the Prophets are disputing Vader's "claim to the Sith legacy" because "too much of the Jedi remains within " and "a spark of light has yet to be extinguished," but that doesn't mean they're not also contesting Vader's powers and abilities with the belief Maul's are greater. Those two ideas actually run hand-in-hand. Maul's "the living embodiment of evil," the embodiment of dark side nefariousness, "a creature of pure evil," etc. It's easy to rationalize why the Prophets think Maul's more worthy to be the Sith apprentice. However, someone being wholly submerged in the dark side whereas the other still has some light side obviously has power implications for a faction that believes dark emotions are the key to power and that the light side is inherently less powerful (a viewpoint adopted by Palpatine, Maul, Dooku, and Vader).

This is made clear in the Prophets plan: "Maul will prove himself by slaying you. The Emperor will be pleased." Why would the Emperor be pleased? He now has a "superior"/"better" apprentice than before. How is that superiority measured? The new apprentice "proved himself" by defeating the former in battle. The Prophets don't just tell the Emperor, "Vader has the light side within him. However, Maul is utterly devoted to the dark side, so you should take him instead." Instead, they orchestrate a battle where they hope to demonstrate their belief Maul's the worthy Sith apprentice, with Maul's victory in particular being the key verification of their claim. The Prophets even describe the battle as "a challenge" to see who is the "better," with the context of "better" being defined as whoever defeats the other: "You could never be certain whether Darth Maul was your better, unless you take up this challenge. So, will you face him?"

Given this, it's clear Maul defeating Vader in a situation where Vader intentionally restrains his Force powers doesn't convey what the Prophets hope to prove to Palpatine. Maul defeating Vader under supremely favorable positions doesn't prove his worth. The only things the Prophets would prove is that Maul's the greater pure lightsaber duelist (utterly irrelevant) and they wasted a far more dark side practitioner for him.

You admit these alleged conditions of a lightsaber-only fight is merely implied to Vader, but what if Vader didn't catch that implication? Given the context outlined above, it's clearly not to be naturally implied that using the dark side is not allowed in a dark side face-off, "duel to the death," "challenge" to see who is "better," and the lines that you're using can easily be interpreted differently (as I've argued and you've agreed). The Prophets entire plan would be dependent on Vader picking up a supremely vague implication and, if he doesn't, per your argument, he would likely just destroy everyone instantly.

Also, Vader would not just have to pick up the implication of no Force usage in general, but specifically that indirect Force usage is allowed but directly pushing/breaking of Maul's Force barrier is now. On that note, it's clear Vader believes that using the Force to trigger the guns would push/back/injure Maul with his taunt, "You believe you know the dark side? This is what the dark side can do," but that would be Vader attempting to overwhelm Maul through indirect Force usage. What's the difference between that and Vader collapsing the citadel over Maul's head, which he should be capable of doing if he's, according to you, Maul's significant superior? Both uses are Vader using the Force to indirectly undermine and destroy Maul.

The obvious reconciliation is that Force usage is allowed, and the Prophets aren't implying anything of that sort.

---

The entire comic is predicated on the belief, "The Force works in mysterious ways." Anyway, if you absolutely want a reconciliation, here's two:

(1) The combined power of the three Prophets in unison are more powerful than Maul, but a vast portion of their power is being used to sustain Maul. Note that three Force users joining their powers together produces a far greater effect than them using it separately, as consistently shown with the New Jedi Order, and that the Prophets powers are clearly not combat-oriented.

(2) The Prophets intentionally created Maul, through arcane sorcery and rituals, to be contingent on their existence to ensure their continued survival and presence among Palpatine's elite. Note this doesn't mean they're necessarily continually sustained Maul, just that they tied their existences together. As example, Revan used a corrupted form of a Force bond on the Temple of Sacrifice against the protagonists, in which if one of the protagonists died the other would die as well.

As to the idea a doppleganger is dependent on the caster: "If the Jedi stops using the power or the doppleganger is fatally injured, it simply fades away." Note the doppleganger doesn't immediately fade away though, as shown with the Dooku doppleganger in "New Droid Army," perhaps why Maul doesn't either.

You can read it when I respond to Lordofthelight in the upcoming days.

AncientPower

Yeah, it's pretty obvious that TPM Maul &gt; TFU Vader.

StarWarsFan77

Any argument for Caedus winning is null. Krayt wins.

Ursumeles

Krayt destroys.

victreebelvictr

Originally posted by StarWarsFan77
Any argument for Caedus winning is null. Krayt wins.