So the choices for our two to five subs. The rivals in this tender will be U214 and Marlin. for now lets forget that if our requirements will get in way. Lets just concentrate on their ability. Not much is known about Marlin. All we know is small bits etc. Lets take those tid bits in those accounts. and if we dont know then you can take the scorpene ability as base since Marlin is an upgrade from Scorpene.

France has cleared Armaris to offer three patrol submarines to Pakistan, lifting a bureaucratic barrier to the naval export company’s efforts to sell the planned Marlin SSK boat, a French defense executive said.

But there is another snag on the horizon: Pakistan wants its new subs to come with the Boeing Harpoon antiship missile, not the Exocet SM39 from European missile maker MBDA, the executive said. Acquiring the Harpoons won’t be the problem. White House officials notified Congress on May 31 that Boeing intends to sell 130 of the missiles, including 30 submarine-launched versions and related equipment, to Pakistan for $370 million. But offering the U.S. missile over the European one could draw opposition from the French government and other local firms.

Armaris is vying to supply Pakistan with three single-hulled, diesel-electric submarines equipped with air-independent propulsion, a deal likely to be worth $1 billion to $1.2 billion. Pakistani officials have said they also would consider the Class 214 submarine from Germany’s Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW) or a Chinese sub. Italian and Russian bids also are expected.

“It will be a very, very tough competition,” the French executive said. India in October purchased six Scorpene boats from Armaris, and construction of the first boat began April 28 with the cutting of the first hull plate in Cherbourg, France, which will be sent to India, where Mazagon Docks will build and outfit the six boats under Armaris’ supervision as prime contractor.

A victory in Pakistan would likely mean a launch customer for the Marlin, which will be an upgrade to state-owned shipbuilder DCN’s 10-year-old Scorpene submarine technology, and a new entry to compete in a crowded market. Just getting this far has been a protracted process for Armaris, a marketing joint venture between DCN and Thales.

Before a French arms maker can offer weapons to a foreign customer, the company must receive the approval of the high-level Commission Interministérielle d’Etude et d’Exportation de Matériel de Guerre (CIEEMG). If buyer and seller then come to an agreement, the sale also must be authorized by the CIEEMG. In January, the CIEEMG withheld its approval, reportedly so as not to upset Pakistan’s regional rival India. Nevertheless, Armaris officials made an informal pitch to a Pakistani delegation several weeks later.

In February, Indian officials signed contracts to buy six Exocet-armed Scorpene subs and 43 Airbus airliners worth $2.5 billion at list prices. On May 10, Armaris received a formal invitation from Pakistan to bid on the three subs, and subsequently received the CIEEMG’s approval to do so, the defense executive said. A Pakistan official confirmed that authorization had been granted for the sale.“It’s good news,” he said.

Officials from the French Defense Ministry and the Délégation Générale pour l’Armament procurement office were not immediately available for comment

Obstacles

Coming up with a deal that satisfies all concerned will be challenging. Among the difficult parts is “how to make an offer that does not upset India,” the xecutive said. Among other considerations, New Delhi, which plans to buy more than 100 jet fighters, is currently deciding between France’s Dassault Rafale and other foreign aircraft, including the F-16 built by Lockheed Martin, the F/A-18E/F by Boeing, the JAS 39 Gripen by Sweden’s Saab and the MiG-29M, offered by Russia’s Irkut.

Another potential stumbling block is Islamabad’s request for technology transfer as part of the sub deal, which raises the spectre of Pakistani defense firms soon competing against French ones.

Yet another sticky wicket is Pakistan’s interest in the Harpoon missile.Islamabad wants the Harpoon because it offers longer range, more accuracy, and potentially fewer export approval delays than the Exocet, the Pakistani official said. But French industry has been given to understand its government’s export committee will never authorize the Marlin sale if it means putting a U.S. weapon on a French platform, the executive said. A pick of the Harpoon would pose the question: Who would pay for the weapon’s integration, said Robbin Laird, an analyst with ICSA, a consulting firm based here and in Washington. It was unlikely Pakistan had the money to pay for the work and France would balk at paying to integrate an American weapon on a French submarine, he said. “We wouldn’t,” he added.

Even if Pakistan were to pay for the integration, France would ask whether it was in DCN’s interest to do it, he said. An alternative would be a buy of a German boat, he said. But the terms would have to be right for German industry, which is unlikely to sell at a loss. As for whether the Harpoon was a better weapon, much depended on the Pakistan Navy’s mission requirement, Laird said.

Pakistan already operates French subs, thanks to a 1994 deal to buy and build three Agosta 90B Khalid boats. The first was built by DCN at its Cherbourg yard, the second was assembled in Karachi Naval Dockyard, and the third boat is being fitted with the Mesma air-independent propulsion system, also in Pakistan.

These subs were sold with Exocets. They are capable of firing the Harpoon, but this has not been tested, the French executive said. “They are fitted for, but no tests have been done,” he said. The schedule for the new sub program is tight. Formal offers are due in July, and Pakistan wants to pick a winner by the end of the year.

But the French executive said that preparing the offer could take six months, thanks to Pakistan’s unusually detailed specifications — for example, the number of propeller blades. “That’s the first time I have seen that,” the executive said.

“The Indian Ocean is an ocean we’re very interested in and we want to continue engaging with all the countries in the region, including Pakistan,” said Rear Adm. Joseph Walsh, the director of the U.S. Navy’s Submarine Warfare Division. “It’s in our interest that our friends and allies have robust submarine and stronger naval capabilities in general.”Indian defense ministry officials said they would watch the development carefully and cautiously.

One Indian analyst said France’s decision to allow Armaris to pitch its submarine to Pakistan seemed baffling, because it would intensify the future debates when India considers buying a French weapon. •

Vago Muradian in Washington and Vivek Raghuvanshi in New Delhi contributed to this report.

===============================================================

Thanks lein303 for the artical.

There was another topic which kind of discussed the subs. but then went of into frigates and destroyers. so please dont discusse about ships.

Now lets start the discussion.

My opinion:

Who ever will let us modify it for a harpoon, we should and probably would go for that one. The depth reached by 214 and i could safely bet that Marlin will also be able to reach that. what will go in our favour is the TOT for agosta. the build yard could possibly modified to accomodate for marlin and agosta easily. It might not be that easy for 214.

We are more used to french tech than german. a transfer to Marlin will be very smooth and quick. we will be 50% trained by in just a period of two months. that will not be possible with german sub. We are also going for tot. agosta tot might be able to reduce the cost of tot related construction costs. again will not be possible for german sub.

with a marlin we will be in the sea hunting lot more earlier than a german sub and that is also a crucial element in the decision.

For now if we compare the scorpene with 214, U boat easily beats scorpene hands down. that is my opinion. Now Marlin specs are not disclosed to public in detail yet. so we have to wait for the details.

214 as of now looks bigger better and bader boat. Marlin is a great contender. Now if we think of how there were changes from agosta ( a more of patrol sub) to scorpene (a more of attack sub). we can imagine there will be some improvement in stealth and increased endurance. Endurance was one of the factor that has most probably turned PN off about scorpene. compared to 212 or 214 scorpene has nothing to offer in term of patroling. at that point agosta was even better choice than scorpene which has to go back every 50 days or 6400nm while agosta could go for 70 days or 10000nm. this fact was also pointed out by some indpendent naval experts.

Today 214 looks like a better choice. but the already established french tot and detailed configuration of Marlin provided by PN might give it an edge that 214 doesnt have.

There is a massive discussion going on in the Auguta thread bro it would be better to add to that as there is a great deal of stuff there. Anyway hands down the German tender is far better and remember it’s not just the Submarine we want but also surface ships which the French cannot provide and if they do at a crazy price. Also just take a look at the language of the article and how dodgy the French bid sounds with all the "upsetting India", no transfer of technology and getting annoyed at the Harppon stuff.....We should run a mile from this.

I'll comment more on the other thread as most of the guys are already involve din deep discussions about the French and German bids...

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Marlin is an upgraded Scorpene with supposedly some Baracudda technology on it; it too will be better than Scorpene. However the PN should go for a medium or low-high priced submarine that 1) beats Scorpene, 2) from a good source, 3) able to buy in numbers. Both the U-214 and Marlin fit that category, in the end it'll probably be the side which offers the biggest bang for the buck.

Though 214 looks bigger and better in the range, launching tubes and endurance. From the looks of it, and simply looks, 214 apparently has more stealth and punching power. In my opinion, 214 will easily beat any scorpene or marlin. unless marlin has some major design change.

IMO, what we need is 214 rather than a Marlin. but then immediate availability could be another concern.

actually based on how quickly it can be out hunting in the arabian sea as sobank put it i'd class the U-214 above the Marlin. this is basically becuase the U-214 is a tried and tested platform. even if we discount all the other deals we can do with the germans (marks sien and lein303 have elaborated on that enough) there is the fact that the 214 is sea-ready. the Marlin is still a design and needs to be built, conduct sea trials then operational trials (by this i mean testing of torpedos and sensors and AShm missile launch facility etc) and then finally be handed over and become truly operational. the 214 has had all those tests done and just needs to be made and delivered. if we do go for a massive deal and tie other purchases in with hte 214 the germans may be more accomodating to us and may even be willing for ToT.

having said this we would most probably get ToT with Marlin and yes the french may be whining about it now but Pakistan and france have a very long history of close defence relations (back through to the 70s with the Mirage III/V induction) so we can work it out. also BTW Frane has also worked on the NH90 so a combined deal involving choppers and subs may still be possible through France.

"Naturally the common people don't want war ... But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along ... All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country"

I would personally go for U212 for the simple reason that it will remain a mystery to IN....I think that both these subs are on equal par with these other capability wise.....perhaps U212 is a bit cheaper.

Humanity's past on this planet is based on the biggest Lie in History--and the same Lie will destroy humans in future! The Truth is infront of us and yet we refuse to accept it, we refuse to see it, we refuse to listen to it. Humans are intelligent and yet the dumbest beings ever!

The language of the article is bit pinching.. it sounds like our demnad became a headche for DCN personals or they simply doing it as a political favour...therefore leave it.. the article suggested that Russian bid is also expected... If get one i think Ruskies have some real stuff too... I had read about their Kilo 837 submarine single shaft double haulled submarines... and it sounds like an impressive hardware...this submarine can dive to 350 meters and fitted with more hard points option...Though i believe it is very unlikely to happen so if not Marlin then U214s with complete TOT

Personally I would prefer U-214 as well, and it will set the stage for new German frigates, corvettes and helicopters which we need or will need in the futre. The Germans gave Transfer of Techology for local production to South Korea and Greece (current customers of the submarine) with offsets to their economy; there is no doubt in my mind that if we offer a deal sweet enough, they'll do the same for us.

The biggest issue with the German submarines would have to be the PN's infrastructure - which is tuned for French submarines. It will take a longer induction process and it may require more funding; although any submarine building knowledge is valuable, so it should not take THAT much time.

i'm no expert on this but seriously speaking how much of an effect will buying the U-214 have on the PN's infrastructure?? even if we got the Marlin we'd still need to upgrade certain things and retool so that we could do maintainence work on it. any ideas?

"Naturally the common people don't want war ... But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along ... All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country"

I would personally go for U212 for the simple reason that it will remain a mystery to IN....I think that both these subs are on equal par with these other capability wise.....perhaps U212 is a bit cheaper.

not u212 but perhaps 214. as of today 214 tops anything that a scorpene can put forward. but what attracts me more is the depth. 400m is a safe point whereas a scorpene will be a 350m. And yes a 214 will be a complete mystery to indians while marlin's ability could be guessed by them comparatively very accurately.

what would it mean to PN.

A 214 will always hiding 50-100m deeper than scorpene.

it can just sit there and wait longer than any attack sub. of indians.

some indians and Pakistani make a mistake of thinking that a anti sub aircraft will just fly over a sub and detect it. Its not that easy. They can fly over thousand times and may never realize that a boat it sitting there. and it might detect a small periscope from miles away.

now longer endurance and boy it is real long. scorpene 50 days max. and 214 is 84 days total. 3 weeks in one dive. that means practically it can spend the whole war without even coming at surface.

So noop. in no way scorpene can touch 212/214 capability wise. One thing is a concern for me how is that how much stealth is working on 214. This is the only advantage a marlin may have over u214.

In the next legislative term, the German Navy hopes to revive an effort to develop a submarine-launched missile that may ignite a multinational development and marketing effort, said officials and industry executives.

The weapon would be intended to work against anti-submarine warfare helicopters, small surface and littoral targets, industry officials said.

Last year, the German military’s central procurement agency, the BWB in Koblenz, began to explore the idea through a working group dubbed IDAS, for Interactive Defense & Attack System for Submarines. The group is composed of representatives from the BWB and several companies which split the proceeds from the contract. The contract’s value has not been publicly disclosed, but the firms and their shares of it are:

Kongsberg will provide the weapon control system and HDW will integrate the missile into the submarine itself. HDW will build the container and perform other integration, said Klaus-Eberhard Möller, head of anti-radar and naval missiles with Diehl BGT Defense.

Funding is being provided through the country’s research and development resources, said one Ministry of Defense (MoD) official.

No existing missile fully met the IDAS requirements, Möller said. IDAS would replace Triton, a fiber-optic guided missile program based on EADS-LFK’s Polyphem missile and scrapped in 2002 primarily for budgetary reasons.

“Back then,” said the MoD official, “the procurement of a new missile from scratch was deemed too expensive.”

IDAS’ primary sensor likely will be based on the infrared image-processing seeker of the six-nation IRIS-T short-range air-to-air missile. Other components will be new, such as the fiber-optic data link and the one-stage solid-fuel rocket engine with a range of 15 kilometers, said the MoD official.

The IDAS working group will also make use of the complete IRIS-T hardware and software guidance package. Each will trail a lightweight fiber-optic cable to send images from the missile’s infrared seeker back to a controller aboard the sub.

“By this, we have eliminated a share of the development costs already, which is very significant for such a program,” said Möller.

IRIS-T Model

The IDAS team said it can use management methods of a multinational program like IRIS-T to reduce redundancies, said Möller.

“With IDAS, we strive to develop a new missile for submarines that applies to the mission scenarios of the future,” said Joachim Reuter, IDAS project manager for HDW. “It is a suitable weapon for effects-based operations.”

HDW, a platform maker, has never built a munition, said Reuter.

“But the torpedo as the only main armament system of the submarine limited the ships somewhat for future missions,” said Reuter. “Now, the main focus is not any more on destroying ships totally.”

Instead, a weapon must be able to deliver a variety of punches, depending on the situation.

Preparations for tests are under way. By the end of next year, the IDAS team could demonstrate a dummy driven by a hot-water propulsor out of the submerged submarine’s torpedo tube to the point where fiber-optic guidance would begin.

The MoD official said a heavyweight torpedo tube would hold a launch container with several missiles, which will be launched separately.

The MoD official said several navies had already expressed an interest. “It would be ideal to find suitable partners for this development effort, which could begin in 2007,” said the MoD official. “Those who deal with missiles also know how expensive development work can be … That’s why putting it on a multinational level can help.”

But tight German MoD budgets are complicating the effort.

Möller expects that a number of countries — basically, all the ones that operate HDW submarines — could become customers for IDAS: Greece, Israel, Norway, Pakistan, Turkey and others.

The Diehl BGT Defense executive said the working group is already in talks with Norway. •

not u212 but perhaps 214. as of today 214 tops anything that a scorpene can put forward. but what attracts me more is the depth. 400m is a safe point whereas a scorpene will be a 350m. And yes a 214 will be a complete mystery to indians while marlin's ability could be guessed by them comparatively very accurately.

what would it mean to PN.

A 214 will always hiding 50-100m deeper than scorpene.

it can just sit there and wait longer than any attack sub. of indians.

some indians and Pakistani make a mistake of thinking that a anti sub aircraft will just fly over a sub and detect it. Its not that easy. They can fly over thousand times and may never realize that a boat it sitting there. and it might detect a small periscope from miles away.

now longer endurance and boy it is real long. scorpene 50 days max. and 214 is 84 days total. 3 weeks in one dive. that means practically it can spend the whole war without even coming at surface.

So noop. in no way scorpene can touch 212/214 capability wise. One thing is a concern for me how is that how much stealth is working on 214. This is the only advantage a marlin may have over u214.

sobank just to clarify some points in your post if you don't mind.

subs usually don't like to go as deep as 350 or 400m unless they are under immediate threat of attack. reason is that lower down you go the more your sonar becomes inaccurate due to changing water densities . you get different sorts of layers forming due to this and the lower down you go the more the layers accumulate and the more inaccurate your sonar is and in essence the more blind the sub is to what is actually happening outside with regards to contacts etc. (this doesn't affect a sub's navigation systems though as the sub can still naigate using it's inertial navigation system similar to a/c in bad weather).

also you are completely right in the anti-sub hunting using aircraft is an art rather than a simple spot and shoot tactic. if we assume the sub to be submerged then the a/c on station has to set up grid patterns and go on this grid by grid system of dropping sonobouys (essentially small listening devices that transmit sound back to the aircraft to be analysed and processed). any attack by the a/c on the sub is likely to come as a result of these sonobouys giving away the fact that a sub is in the vicinity and what it's speed and relative course is. obviously then the a/c can prosecute the target and you get the sub going deep to try and escape from the a/c and the sonobouys that are giving it's position away.

Mark Sien,

Thanks for the info. interesting to see that the subs may actually get some weaponery to answer to ASW choppers and a/c. that would be quite an asset to them expecially in the situation i described above. BTW does anyone know if the Russian Kilo class can fire SAMs? someone once told me that the Kilo had some sort of capacity to do this, I didn't agree with him but thought I'd check. (slightly off-topic, my bad).

regards.

Edited by faz101, 07 June 2006 - 10:59 PM.

"Naturally the common people don't want war ... But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along ... All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country"

Thanks for the info. interesting to see that the subs may actually get some weaponery to answer to ASW choppers and a/c. that would be quite an asset to them expecially in the situation i described above. BTW does anyone know if the Russian Kilo class can fire SAMs? someone once told me that the Kilo had some sort of capacity to do this, I didn't agree with him but thought I'd check. (slightly off-topic, my bad).

regards.

I would really doubt the guidance of an anti aircraft missile system unless it's launched from a sub that is on the surface. Even then it wont be good enough given that the radars on submarines for such purpose will be a design challenge due to space and dimensions constraints.

Sobank,Brother dont go on the numbers like that. The only number that is good is submerged endurance. The depth and all that stuff is not much difference from what we have on agosta. ONe thing to consider is that the edurance can probably extended by adding fuel cell technology with MESMA like in U214.french might be able to do that in marlin. our biggest concern is the ability to launch CMs from submarines.

Even what is there in agosta can make best use of ambient noise and sea bottom clutter in littoral seas. From my limited knowledge you never deploy diesel submarines as hunting weapons. More like predators that submereg deep at strategic locations and wait for their prey. Ambush tactics are favored because that lessens your fuel consumption. Nuclear subs are the ones which try to run harder and faster.

"....What the Ulama have forgotten is their role in creating a good human being. I don't even mean a good Muslim. Whether Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu- what matters is the creation of a good person above all else: Someone who obeys the law, has a respect for the fundamental rights and needs of others, has a sense of social obligation and duty. When such individuals are around, creating an Islamic society that is just and equal is easy..........."

Syed Haider Farooq Maudoodi the son of Syed Maulana Maudoodi, founder of the Jamaat-e Islami

yes your right. tactics with diesel subs dictate that you minimise noise and just have minimum power to stay on course and counter effect of tides and drift etc. and then you just sit and wait for your target to go steaming merrily by. BTW a good movie to wath which gives quite an idea of sub tactics (even if they are WW2 tactics, tactics don't change that much) is Das Boot. brilliant movie and very realistic.

"Naturally the common people don't want war ... But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along ... All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country"

BTW a good movie to wath which gives quite an idea of sub tactics (even if they are WW2 tactics, tactics don't change that much) is Das Boot. brilliant movie and very realistic.

Watched it long time ago back in Pakistan. I loved that movie. Never seen any such thing like before.Incredible.

"....What the Ulama have forgotten is their role in creating a good human being. I don't even mean a good Muslim. Whether Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu- what matters is the creation of a good person above all else: Someone who obeys the law, has a respect for the fundamental rights and needs of others, has a sense of social obligation and duty. When such individuals are around, creating an Islamic society that is just and equal is easy..........."

Syed Haider Farooq Maudoodi the son of Syed Maulana Maudoodi, founder of the Jamaat-e Islami

u guys are right in your own. but i was talking about ambushing. as i said earlier just sit there. PN has been very aggressive with its subs. so attacking will be our one choice. travelling deeper will be lot more safe.

In addition to that if agosta following 214 by lets say 50km (numbers given for explaination) it can detect scorpene accurately. agosta will draw the scorpene in and all 214 has to do is come up at the back up from behind. In the presence of all those subs, increased endurance and depth could be decisive.

but this is only true for ambush mission. like if the sub has only one mission to destroy the carrier etc. for patroling its not practical to go 400m and you are absolutely right there.

not u212 but perhaps 214. as of today 214 tops anything that a scorpene can put forward. but what attracts me more is the depth. 400m is a safe point whereas a scorpene will be a 350m. And yes a 214 will be a complete mystery to indians while marlin's ability could be guessed by them comparatively very accurately.

what would it mean to PN.

A 214 will always hiding 50-100m deeper than scorpene.

it can just sit there and wait longer than any attack sub. of indians.

some indians and Pakistani make a mistake of thinking that a anti sub aircraft will just fly over a sub and detect it. Its not that easy. They can fly over thousand times and may never realize that a boat it sitting there. and it might detect a small periscope from miles away.

now longer endurance and boy it is real long. scorpene 50 days max. and 214 is 84 days total. 3 weeks in one dive. that means practically it can spend the whole war without even coming at surface.

So noop. in no way scorpene can touch 212/214 capability wise. One thing is a concern for me how is that how much stealth is working on 214. This is the only advantage a marlin may have over u214.

Very nicely put Sobank! Yep...214 (not 212)...I am just surprised at the fact that when it comes to submarine tech, people tend to look at USA, France, Russia, etc. whereas they don't realise how good German sumbarine tech is!

Humanity's past on this planet is based on the biggest Lie in History--and the same Lie will destroy humans in future! The Truth is infront of us and yet we refuse to accept it, we refuse to see it, we refuse to listen to it. Humans are intelligent and yet the dumbest beings ever!

Germans invented the U-boats. all modern submarine technology and tactics (especially ambush tactics) can be traced back to them in one form or another.

"Naturally the common people don't want war ... But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along ... All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country"

i watched a program on the discovery channel about the u214 they said it could stay under water for 84 days and its engines could be put on a silent mode. they said it was built with alot of stealth features also materials used on the ship kept the sound of the engine petruding into the sea nearby and kept its radar signature. on the program a u214 crew put the engine on normal mode it was loud and then they put it to silent mode and the engine could bearly be heard. personally i think the u214 is the best option out of marlin and 214 because it is already in service while the marlin is still being tested, the u214 is a tried and tested platform, while the marlin is just doing its sea trials and testing, other reasons are that the u214 has a longer endurance then the scorpene which the marlin is a upgrade of, the u214 can be customised for the needs of the PN while the marlin cant, both are of similar capability though the U214 is cheaper and provides more bang for buck. the Pn currently has a requirement for 4 frigates and 5 corvettes, french corvettes and frigates are more expensive then there german counterparts but offer similar capability. inconjuction with this german sub deal the Pn could ink a deal with germany for 5 corvettes like the MEKO A100 and 4 frigates like the MEKO A200. these ships are cheap yet stealthy and capable. the marlin is essentialy a upgrade of the scorpene with new tech incorporated on it and willl probably be abit better than the scorpene which india are purchasing to counter the augosta 90bs.

"Hate your enemy mildly, he may one day become your friend"Haadith

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"All I am, or can be, I owe to my angel mother." Abraham Lincoln

"Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any other." Abraham Lincoln

"The future is today!Todays actions will shape those of tomorrows!"My legendary quotation

"I dont want to be forgotten, i want to be remembered, i want to be among those men remembered in the history books, i want to make a great difference to mankind."My second legendary quotation

it was called ultimate subs it was on national geographic or discovey today at about 11am they talked about the swedish gotland, u212/214 and US virginia and texas class subs and other modern. subs it also talked about german u-boats during world war 2 it talked about some german engineer back in 1945 making a air independant propulsion system for a sub called the type21 u-boat but the sub didnt enter service it only went through trials and stopped at the end of world war 2 which was scary. it also talked about other things. it was very interesting, it lasted 1 hour.

"Hate your enemy mildly, he may one day become your friend"Haadith

"Faith, Unity, Discipline"MA Jinnah

"All I am, or can be, I owe to my angel mother." Abraham Lincoln

"Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any other." Abraham Lincoln

"The future is today!Todays actions will shape those of tomorrows!"My legendary quotation

"I dont want to be forgotten, i want to be remembered, i want to be among those men remembered in the history books, i want to make a great difference to mankind."My second legendary quotation

Back on September 19, 2005, DID offered in-depth coverage of India's $3.5 billion local-build deal for 6 SSK Scorpene Class ultra-quiet diesel-electric submarines between 2012-1017, as well as the present status and future plans of the rival Chinese and Pakistani submarine programs. Now the Times of India reports that India's Navy wants the last 3 submarines to include DCN's MESMA air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems, changing them from CM-2000 to AM-2000 Scorpene designation.

What's MESMA, why does it matter, who else builds AIPs, and how does MESMA compare?

The MESMA anaerobic system will change the Scorpene's ability to operate underwater for sustained periods without having to surface. An AM-2000 is still not in the same league as SSN nuclear subs which can do this indefinitely, but it is a substantial improvement that reduces "indiscretion time" on the surface where the sub can be spotted by radar, and also heard more easily by underwater sensors. A CM-2000 Scorpene can operate underwater for 4-6 days without surfacing or snorkelling to get oxygen to recharge its batteries. An AM-2000 Scorpene, in contrast, will be able to operate for up to 18 days, depending on variables like speed, etc.

Basically, the MESMA approach is closed-cycle steam turbine derivative of French nuclear-propulsion experience using non-nuclear steam generation. A conventional Rankine-cycle turbo-alternator is powered by steam generated from the combustion of ethanol (grain alcohol) and stored oxygen at a pressure of 60 atmospheres. This pressure-firing allows exhaust carbon dioxide to be expelled overboard at any depth without an exhaust compressor.

Each MESMA system costs around $50-60 million, as they require adding a new 8.3 meter (27 foot), 305 tonne hull section to the submarine. The resulting AM-2000 Scorpene AIP is about 70m long and displaces 1,870t. Note that per DID's earlier article, Pakistan third Khalid Class (Agosta 90B) sub will also be equipped with MESMA.

Other AIP systems around the world include Kockums' Stirling-cycle AIPs fitted to Gotland, Sodermanland, and Nacken Class submarines; parent firm HDW also has its own design for U209, U212, and U214 Class vessels that uses Siemens' PEM (Proton Exchange Membrane). Fellow member of the German Submarine Consortium Thyssen Nordseewerke has a closed-cycle diesel (CCD) system that uses liquid oxygen, diesel fuel, and argon gas, and the Dutch RDM submarine shipyard has advertised a "Spectre" CCD.

An article in Undersea Warfare Magazine notes that: "although MESMA can provide higher output power than the other alternatives, its inherent efficiency is the lowest of the four AIP candidates, and its rate of oxygen consumption is correspondingly higher."

And if we have this tech then why don't we just go with more agostas..isn't that going to be a cheaper option??...we can divert those resources on counter measures for the scorpenes...more anti sub helis or planes...no??...any one??

the MESMA system is going to be retro-fitted to the other 2 90B class subs.

"Naturally the common people don't want war ... But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along ... All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country"

Pakistan is looking to buy a new sub platform for our Babur cruise missiles, not as a counter to the Scropenes. The Agosta 90B in its current configuration cannot launch Babur cruise mimssiles, it's not big enough.

He made himself out of taciturn fibres.He oiled himself like the soul of the olive.He became glass of transparent hardness.He studied to be a hurricane wind.He fought himself until his blood was extinguished.Only then was he worthy of his people.

But can't the agostas be modified, like they're modifying it for AIP??

I understand that there might not be major changes to the basic structure of the sub, but the structure does need to expand even for the AIP...so why can't it be expanded enough for putting cruise missiles??

and how many cruise missiles do we intend on putting on the subs??...if they're going to be around 2-6 on each sub, even then does it require a totally different modification??

But can't the agostas be modified, like they're modifying it for AIP??

I understand that there might not be major changes to the basic structure of the sub, but the structure does need to expand even for the AIP...so why can't it be expanded enough for putting cruise missiles??

and how many cruise missiles do we intend on putting on the subs??...if they're going to be around 2-6 on each sub, even then does it require a totally different modification??

Thanks for your answer ...much appreciated

mado

mado,

the structure of the Agosta is being lengthened to accomodate the MESMA. i'm not sure by how much but you can find the true increase in length on the net.

problem with launching the Baburs from the Agostas is that the torpedo tubes aren't big enough. i think the change in the structure of the sub required would be so great that it would not be financially feasible for the PN.

regards.

"Naturally the common people don't want war ... But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along ... All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country"

Senior Pakistani and German defense officials on Wednesday held their first ever strategic dialogue, the Pakistan army said.

"Both sides showed willingness to extend cooperation in different fields including military, education, research and exchange of scholars," a Pakistan military statement said, adding "at the end of the dialogue, the heads of two delegations shared views on how to further promote cooperation between the two armed forces."

According to the statement, the two sides discussed the issues on security policies, priorities, German engagement and interests in Afghanistan, Kashmir dispute and Afghanistan, role and functions of North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and European Union in the new environment and "changing strategic environment" in Asia.

Senior military leadership and eminent scholars from national think tanks in Pakistan and German ambassador to Pakistan attended the dialogue, the statement said.

I'm pretty sure the chances of the German bid winning are quite high.

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no country would be willing to sell nuclear subs. AFAIK no country has ever sold nuclear subs to another country although i could be wrong. anyway, we need more research on nuclear reactors and sub construction before we can reach that stage.

"Naturally the common people don't want war ... But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along ... All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country"

I think Pakistan go for U214 with technology transfer and may be also license production to sale other nations. It also help Pakistan to combine French and German technologies to design its own Submarine.

I think Pakistan go for U214 with technology transfer and may be also license production to sale other nations. It also help Pakistan to combine French and German technologies to design its own Submarine.

sale to other nations is debateable but yes there is a lot to be gained by combining french and german technological know-how. it may even help in giving us the know-how to design our own subs later on.

"Naturally the common people don't want war ... But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along ... All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country"

I am no Naval expert, but I have a feeling that on the merit of things, I think the German U-214 would be a better buy (but that could be offset by tailoring Pakistani requirements in the Marlin design by the French).

Germans typically do a hell of a job on any or all military hardware they make and from what I know, Pakistani armed forces (especially the Army) is a BIG fan of German hardware. The problem with the Germans is that if they are on the self-righteous mode, then gettimg stuff from them gets hard. But no doubt that whatever they make will be very competent and solid from an engineering standpoint (I wish we could imbibe the same level of quality and dedication in our engineering disciplines as the Germans).

The pros for the French design are that they understand our requirements and have come up with a tailored design for PN...in addition we already have considerable expertise in design and manufacturing of French submarines and most importantly the experience in operating french designs for the past 4 decades. So on the balance of things, I hope PN make a call on the merit of the platform...both are pretty good as long as they allow PN to be able to field the third component of a nuclear triad.

I am no Naval expert, but I have a feeling that on the merit of things, I think the German U-214 would be a better buy (but that could be offset by tailoring Pakistani requirements in the Marlin design by the French).

Germans typically do a hell of a job on any or all military hardware they make and from what I know, Pakistani armed forces (especially the Army) is a BIG fan of German hardware. The problem with the Germans is that if they are on the self-righteous mode, then gettimg stuff from them gets hard. But no doubt that whatever they make will be very competent and solid from an engineering standpoint (I wish we could imbibe the same level of quality and dedication in our engineering disciplines as the Germans).

The pros for the French design are that they understand our requirements and have come up with a tailored design for PN...in addition we already have considerable expertise in design and manufacturing of French submarines and most importantly the experience in operating french designs for the past 4 decades. So on the balance of things, I hope PN make a call on the merit of the platform...both are pretty good as long as they allow PN to be able to field the third component of a nuclear triad.

blain that basically just sums up the argument. both potential bids have their merits and both are willing to tailor their designs (i assume..well the french are anyway) to the PN's stringent requirements. i think either would be quite a good buy although personally i favour the U-214.

regards.

"Naturally the common people don't want war ... But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along ... All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country"

I vote for Marlin, it has more familiarity with our Agosta and will cement the naval relationshipwith France. We can buy more Agosta and Marlins from France if we want, the Germans are not so reliable.

It does not matter if a cat is black or white, as long as it eats mice. Deng Xiaoping.

“In the vollies of bullets, in the thunder of bombs, there are a few who just do not stop, knowing that they are surrounded by death, knowing that they could leave their wives widows and children orphans, but they just keep on moving because something is pumping in their hearts, and flowing through their veins known as honor, devotion, motivation. Death over surrender. This is why they say ‘Death before disgrace’. Pak Army Zindabad.”

to have visited a Scorpene submarine and a U212, I can say than the Scorpene is directly derived from the french nuclear submarine, it's really a terrible war machine.The U214 seem to be a toy, we can see many article, publicity, etc...but in the fact it's just a good communication lesson give by the germans. The many problem on the greek U214 is just the reflect of what i have already heard from the many delegation I have met. AIP system is limited at 120 kw (3 knots), the performances are just theoric and fuel cells need to be replace every 4 patrols...