I distinctly recall Aimed Shot/Multishot gibbing most anyone in the game, in Vanilla. Such skill, such talent. I mean it was fun as fuck, but lol.

I seriously doubt you gibbed any high Armor target.

This thread is pretty much bait and it's unlikely that any reasonable discussion will take place, but there an ounce of truth in it.
Vanilla PvP is pretty much Rock,Paper,Scissor.

Wizard kills Warrior.
Assassin kills Wizard.
Warrior kills Assassin.

Obviously, that sucks for a game where Arena exists and death basically means defeat, but in a game mode where a singular death is just a setback and not defeat, it's a whole different story.

Take Moba games for instance, heroes / champions in there aren't made to counter everyone, they have clear established strengths and weaknesses.
If you play a squishy wizard, it's not a great idea to wander around alone, because an Assassin / stealth character might just pick you off and kill you within seconds.

You're dead, but you'll be respawning in X seconds, that doesn't mean the game is imbalanced, you just played incorrectly because you should force fights where the Assassin character has to face the Warrior and gets beaten up.
But unlike Arena, the game is not necessarily over, you just made a mistake and comeback is entirely possible.

In a game mode where you're given more room to pick your fights, it's okay to have this sort of thing within the game without being utterly broken, because you just avoid the situation where a given character can just wipe the floor with you without any drawback.

To go back to your example above.
Sure, In classic, Hunters can really put cloth wears in a world of hurt, but once a hunter has a Rogue / Warrior on their ass, they're not laughing anymore, especially with things such as deadzone being a thing.
It's also not as easy to reach the backline of a fight without being right in the middle of a Melee zerg or being totally out of position once people turn around and go after you.

Doing PvP in Classic really reminds of playing a Moba game, where you can also die within seconds, but in a mode where characters aren't forced into a cage and the sole objective is to kill enemy and dying doesn't mean you automatically lost, that's okay.

On top of that, this gives you a lot more room to explore class fantasy because not everything has to be about offensive CD's, defensive CD's and CC.

What makes hunters special in classic (PvP) are basically three things:
-They're a Ranged class that deals physical damage (thus counters cloth which rely on keeping their distance from physical dps such as Rogue / Warrior)
-They can be an excellent defender and great 1v1 class
-They can easily Mana drain the enemy healer (unlike Priest / Warlock)

These three rather simple things make Hunters stand out in Classic, regardless of spec or anything and give the class a real identity.

Meanwhile, in Retail we're entering the 3rd round of dance around the golden egg that is "class fantasy".

Does Retail PvP / Arena take more skill?
No question it does, but one should also ask whether "requires more skill" automatically translates to more fun.
Because if skill was my sole metric, i'd be playing chess.

You've never met a Hunter with Ashjre'thul, Crossbow of Smiting. Even if both attacks didn't crit, you're already limping and on the brink.

Considering the Chromaggus Crossbow only has like 20 more Top end damage than the Epic quest chain bow, i doubt it's the weapon that really makes it here.

And Hunters aren't doing that much to Warriors currently, because they're wearing a shitload of Stamina gear on top of their 40%+ physical damage reduction due Armor.
Warriors in decent PvP gear hover around like 5k hp without buffs, whereas the average caster / cloth wearer sits slightly above 3k hp.

Considering the Chromaggus Crossbow only has like 20 more Top end damage than the Epic quest chain bow, i doubt it's the weapon that really makes it here.

And Hunters aren't doing that much to Warriors currently, because they're wearing a shitload of Stamina gear on top of their 40%+ physical damage reduction due Armor.
Warriors in decent PvP gear hover around like 5k hp without buffs, whereas the average caster / cloth wearer sits slightly above 3k hp.

Is Classic pre or post normalization? Because of the weapon slow speed, it hit way harder.

Is Classic pre or post normalization? Because of the weapon slow speed, it hit way harder.

Post obviously, before that, even blue / green weapons managed to outperform epic weapons simply on basis of being slower.
As the classic servers use 1.12 as basis and the Normalization happened in 1.10.

A green Crossbow for level 22 managed to outperform some fast ranged weapons simply because it had a 3.4 speed, broken beyond belief mechanic.

Classic is all about one shot kills and stunlocking...frost mage slowing opponents to the point they literally can do nothing

Retail has things like counters and not killing your enemy in two seconds

Also Classic players just wreak of desperation....it's not a coincidence that Classic players are posting all these Classic are better than Retail posts just weeks after the new expansion is announced. Retail Derangement Syndrome at its best, can't handle that Classic players are dropping, not living up to the "Classic will have millions of players and never lose any" guarantees made by some.

Classic is all about one shot kills and stunlocking...frost mage slowing opponents to the point they literally can do nothing

Retail has things like counters and not killing your enemy in two seconds

Also Classic players just wreak of desperation....it's not a coincidence that Classic players are posting all these Classic are better than Retail posts just weeks after the new expansion is announced. Retail Derangement Syndrome at its best, can't handle that Classic players are dropping, not living up to the "Classic will have millions of players and never lose any" guarantees made by some.

Lol every game loses players after its launch, classic is just way better at retaining players than bra though.

Still queues on every server every night.
It feels like classic is getting more players each day, where as bfa is looking like a ghost town because of classic.

And the PvP part classic have way higher skill ceiling than bfa, u can rly master ur class in classic, whereas bfa u have to be able to do your dps rotation and then u can get to 2.4k easily.

And the PvP part classic have way higher skill ceiling than bfa, u can rly master ur class in classic, whereas bfa u have to be able to do your dps rotation and then u can get to 2.4k easily.

If you really think classic has a higher skill ceiling than BFA then you clearly never played BFA PvP before. Is classic pvp more fun than bfa pvp? In my opinion yes. I like the system of getting oneshotted or being oneshotted, while you can outplay multiple opponents by dodging their most important skills. I think classic pvp is definitely more fun. In BFA the pvp is very slow and things can go forever, while there is a lot of room for counterplay. BFA definitely requires you to have more skill, especially in arenas. It's not as simple as you think and if so, you've never even played above 1,8k let alone 2k in 3v3. What people consider as very high skilled in classic(like dealing with 3 people at once) is like the usual situation in a 3v3 scenario. Sheep 1, Ring 2, DPS 3, while watching out for potential interrupts etc.
Also reading the enemy moves is essential in BFA. In classic its quite intuitive.

Nethertheless i dont play BFA anymore since the pvp system bored me to death and i dont like the slow pace and overall design of the classes(no one really dies). I enjoy classic pvp, because its way more fun to me even tho the skillceiling is substantially lower.

Your statement about reading enemies is also quite ridiculous. All types of PvP encounters, in both Classic and Retail require you/your team to read the enemy and produce counters. That's the root logic of all PvP, and why PvP is much harder to master than PvE.

I'm sorry, but being perma kited by a mage, or a rogue killing you inside stunlock, or even a warrior MSing you once or twice and then you're dead. Is ZERO skill. Gear is too much of a difference in Classic, for it to be "skill" based. If an Arms warrior has Sulfuras, good luck, unless you can keep him from hitting you ever, you're not going to win.

You're completely backwards in how retail vs classic pvp works.

I've had MANY open world 1v1s where they last 2-3 mins because of counter play, and the ability to counter play. Whether I'm on my disc priest or on my warlock, those fights take significantly more skill than they would in Classic.

Classic is the easiest mmo on the market, bar none.

No, you've had many world 1v1's that last 3 minutes because *every class in the game can heal now* and mana doesn't exist anymore.

Originally Posted by Endus

A thread about how hard it is being a white dude is not really a reasonable topic.

If by pure skill and tactics you mean dreaming at what you could do if you were not chain feared, stun locked, polymorphed and then just eating 2xpyros or kited around to death with absolutely nothing you can do, then sure, let's call that kind of crap skill and tactics, or at least the dream of.

Does Classic have pvp? It only has World pvp, right? I've never seen world pvp that doesn't favor someone - number wise, level wise, gear wise, class wise. To talk about skills means you can compare a situation where two players of the same class with the exact same gear face eachother without outside influence. Which is... not ever gonna happen.

Well... not sure about equal rating. A friend and I decided to do Arenas for the essence (needed 1k rating). The first 3 fights were people like us, with small rating. The 18 fights following that had only people above 1500 rating. So... I don't know. It TRIES to make it equal, at least.

Still queues on every server every night.
It feels like classic is getting more players each day, where as bfa is looking like a ghost town because of classic.

The servers in modern wow have shards and other things implemented to allow for more people (for example, more people can mine the same node so there wouldn't be a scarcity of resources if more people were allowed in). So just having queues is not an argument. I'm not saying that you're wrong, I'm just saying that it's not a valid argument.
Also, BfA has been out for longer than Classic so if you're going to compare how it retains players, you have to do it after a year. You can't compare BfA after a year in between patches with a Classic now with an extended phase. I mean you can, but it's pretty pointless.