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What I know is from my own life in BDSM. I enjoy taking care of people in my life. I do it well. In my job I am a care giver also. What I get out of being a mistress is being cared for back. I get appreciation, attention and what I miss elsewhere all while being a caregiver in return. I swear, it keeps me sane and able to continue working and being who I am without burning out, becoming resentful and lashing out abusively with my words and actions.

My life as a mistress is pretty much the only area I receive anything in return from others in a way that is tangible. My sub gives me the attention I lack elsewhere in return for the attention I give him. I ask for it, it is given willingly and eagerly. I don't get that on the forum/on line, in my job, from my community. If I asked for some attention in the vanilla world I would get more eye rolls than I get from my son when I try to kiss him good bye at his school people just don't give in that way on a regular basis. At least in my world. Nor do I expect them to as its not how life works. In D/s subs and doms do though. Its a balance that doesn't exist in day to day life.

What I give to my sub is the release of having to be responsible for their self and their emotions. I take care of all of that for them. I do it because I love them and want to release their burden. Its very cathartic and relieving to be told that you don't have to be responsible, that I will take care of all of that. Its been cathartic for me too to be trusted that much.

I have helped Mono release all kinds of emotions because of the nature of our relationship when I dom him. Of course he can express himself, of course he can do things when he wants and need... Some times what is needed is to be released even from that! A good dom would reckognize when those needs come up (need to go pee, need to remember to send a birthday card to your mum, etc.) and allow/tell their sub to do what is necessary and expected of them beyond the relationship dynamic.

No no. 24/7 lifestylers are not playing a game. Their D/s relationship is power exchange for the benefit of both, for growth and success in life. Subs need direction, their Masters/Mistresses love to give it. A good Master/Mistress is all up inside their sub partner's head, for the benefit of the sub. Some couples have contracts where the sub has to keep a journal with all their deepest thoughts and needs and desires fully documented, so that the M can read it and know exactly what is going on, to be better able to direct the sub to live in a healthy productive way. It's the opposite of abuse.

__________________Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

No no. 24/7 lifestylers are not playing a game. Their D/s relationship is power exchange for the benefit of both, for growth and success in life. Subs need direction, their Masters/Mistresses love to give it. A good Master/Mistress is all up inside their sub partner's head, for the benefit of the sub. Some couples have contracts where the sub has to keep a journal with all their deepest thoughts and needs and desires fully documented, so that the M can read it and know exactly what is going on, to be better able to direct the sub to live in a healthy productive way. It's the opposite of abuse.

I never said it was abuse. In fact, I was trying to express the opposite: that both partners do it because they find doing it is fun.

I'm aware that our fun pursuits, if worth doing, aren't fun all the time. I am a professional musician now, but of couse all through my childhood and teenage years, I was learning to play violin. I loved it and it was fun, but it is also frustrating and can be very hard work. It takes many hours a day, and the kind of discipline and commitment where you're thinking about it all the time. But it felt worth it, because of the fun.

I don't see how I've just belittled lifestyle D/s to see it in the same vein. I just see lifestylers as more hardcore (less amateur) players of the D/s game. I don't think you understand that I think a game or a hobby can be very serious, life-changing stuff.

Would you call a traditional MF couple, like from olden days up to the mid 1960s, where the wife has promised to "obey" her husband and defer to his final decision, game players? Or just following what they think is the proper, even Biblical template?

Ds is kind of like that, only spelled out, not as God's plan, but as a choice made by 2 empowered loving rational beings. (And of course, the sub can be male and the Domme female.) BDSMers, like poly people, seem to be forced to have more insight into themselves and their relationships than mono MF couples.

Comparing the dynamics of a loving relationship to a hobby seems just a bit dismissive. Calling it just "fun" is kinda ridiculous, imo.

__________________Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

Would you call a traditional MF couple, like from olden days up to the mid 1960s, where the wife has promised to "obey" her husband and defer to his final decision, game players? Or just following what they think is the proper, even Biblical template?

Ds is kind of like that, only spelled out, not as God's plan, but as a choice made by 2 empowered loving rational beings. (And of course, the sub can be male and the Domme female.) BDSMers, like poly people, seem to be forced to have more insight into themselves and their relationships than mono MF couples.

Comparing the dynamics of a loving relationship to a hobby seems just a bit dismissive. Calling it just "fun" is kinda ridiculous, imo.

No, I wouldn't call an old-fashioned couple game players. They legitimately thought that the woman was inferior in intellect and ability to the man. I would call that misogyny.

My impression of modern D/s couples is that they don't think one partner is inferior than the other. They take on these roles because they like them, find them comforting, get off on them, etc. and decide together to embark on the D/s dynamic, knowing they are equal partners in the relationship.

No, I wouldn't call an old-fashioned couple game players. They legitimately thought that the woman was inferior in intellect and ability to the man. I would call that misogyny.

OK, well, there might have been plenty of evidence the woman was the man's intellectual equal or better, but they behaved as if this wasn't true, because the Bible said (in the first few verses of Genesis, and backed up elsewhere) woman was made to serve and obey the man, and be submissive to his will and direction. Even if they both know he's a cute well meaning (or not so well meaning) dunderhead and she's got an IQ of 140.

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My impression of modern D/s couples is that they don't think one partner is inferior than the other. They take on these roles because they like them, find them comforting, get off on them, etc. and decide together to embark on the D/s dynamic, knowing they are equal partners in the relationship.

Right. So, it's not a game. It's a legitimate relationship dynamic.

And even if you're a "just in the bedroom" BDSMer, or "just at play parties," it doesn't need to be seen as a game. It might be seen as just fun to some. It might be a genuine need or desire, that makes one feel complete, fulfilled and whole, to others. Savvy?

__________________Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

D/s is essentially a game, right? People do it for funsies. Those that do it just in the bedroom are casual about their gaming, and those that "lifestyle" it are more hardcore gamers. That's how I think about it.

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Originally Posted by MichelleZed

I know, but one always takes one's hobbies way too seriously.

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Originally Posted by MichelleZed

You keep saying "just a game" and I've never said that. I think we are just using the term "game" differently, that's all.

I guess. I guess an obsessed artist would be a "hardcore serious gamer" in your book. Picasso and Van Gogh painted as a "hobby," which they took too seriously?

24/7 lifestylers are hardcore gamers, not just 2 people practicing a relationship dynamic out of deep love and mutual growth? "For funsies?"

__________________Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

I would hope that we are, at least in part, in any relationship for funsies.

And yes, of course I see a similarity between a hardcore gamer and a career artist. I am an artist, and I just compared gaming to my own violin playing just a few posts back. Obviously, not everything is the same, but meaningful parallels can be drawn: the commitment it takes, the constant preoccupation of one's mind, the way it shapes your life in a way that it doesn't for someone who only does it a few hours a week. The way that we do it anyway, even on days when we're tired or we're sick of it or it isn't working.

Every pursuit works on a spectrum, and there are sort of "amateurs" and "professionals" at it. And yes, I *do* add D/s--or actually all of BDSM--into my list of pursuits that can be treated seriously or casually--just like gaming, or art.

Gaming spectrum:
I played King's Quest with my wife when it came out. <===Casual
I have discussions with my friends while being my D&D character. <===Hardcore

Art spectrum:
I take a pottery class on Wednesdays. <===Casual
It feels like my whole body dances on stage even when I'm sleeping. <===Hardcore

D/s spectrum:
Sometimes, in bed, I like my husband to pretend he's my teacher and discipline me. <===Casual
My husband wears a collar and follows a contract we drew up 24/7. <===Hardcore

Not everyone has the gumption to do things hardcore. I think you underestimate how truly noble, how arduous, I consider our pursuit of funsies to be!

But anyone on the outside, any non-hardcore gamers, so to speak, can't possibly see why we'd do it. They think we're "taking our hobbies too seriously", and, the thing is... perhaps we are. Sometimes, when things are hard, I wonder why I'm doing this and think that perhaps the casuals have the right idea. Haven't you ever had similar doubts... thoughts of giving it up, taking a break, not guiding your partner's every thought or move, because it would be easier? But we press on in the end, because of the funsies.

Look, I realize that "funsies" was probably a pretty flippant word to use, and I apologize for being glib. I hope you can now take my full meaning.

My main point stands. I just read a few pages of people who said that they understand why a couple would do D/s in the bedroom, but they can't imagine why they would do it for hours, or all day, or let it take over their relationship. Well, of course they don't understand. They're just not hardcore.