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This is a frustrating thread to read now. There's some odd folks out there.

DBill - you need to understand the distinction between the Casio dealer network and any issues that may raise and the simple fact that you were interested in a brand new Casio product that it seems NO ONE HAS AT THE MOMENT. Whatever the situation with the evolving Casio network you are not going to get a 650 within a day or two - the product is brand new and stocks are just not out there yet.

As Sam and Mike have said - be patient or buy an alternative product.

Trying to act as some digital piano James Bond (007 - licence to moan) and "tipping off" Kraft or anyone else that Casio might or might not include them in their network or authorised retailers for this product is not your place and - if I were to be charitable - I would describe as "eccentric" behaviour. I have no doubt Kraft can look after their own relationship with Casio without any input from you.

Having read your posts if I was Casio I'd be awfully grateful you'd decided to buy a Kawai!

For that matter, how would I have any knowledge of what your business agreements were?

I'm not calling you the bad guy, I'm only saying you are too impatient if you want the Casio to come to you. Some previous internet dealers thought/hoped they would represent the new models and that created the cloud of different information that surrounded you. When we spoke a few days ago, I anticipated this and explained how some places would dance around while getting your hopes up. I gave you an estimated timeline from Casio based on the best information available. And, at that time, I clarified why far away dealers couldn't just satisfy your request.

I do not expect you to know the business agreement when you approached me. You didn't do anything wrong, but know that posting the PM's will not be embarrassing to me. I explained that you needed to visit a dealer. I hoped Casio would find the next closest dealer (not me) and assign them to you, but that is their decision. Even that would require an exception to the new dealer model where you must try before you buy. Nothing has changed in the week since we spoke except that Casio is a week closer to answering you.

You were asking some of the wrong questions to some of the wrong people. You didn't know you were asking the wrong questions, and since this is not like the previous AP's, gratification is not instant for everyone, everywhere. I accept you choosing an alternative product that meets your needs and your timeline. I just don't like the idea that Casio somehow let you down. Even the competitor had to order a DP for you. By March when it arrives, Casio probably would have had an answer for you. That's my whole point.

First off, just really have to thank the dealers and DP company representatives who contribute to this board. Really helps in the decision-making process.

FWIW, I think Casio is doing right by limiting their new Celvianos to authorized dealers. It makes it more difficult, sure. I'd rather order it online, sure. But at least in this case, chances are it encourages the customer to go to several B&M stores to try out different DPs, possibly promoting a better decision and customer satisfaction. It also might help improve perception of product value long-term (once people get used to the idea of Casio having authorized dealer-only products).

I really hope some people who've actually purchased and played an AP-650 over a longer period of time can contribute to this post or start a new (non-dead horse) thread.

For anyone who still had any remaining doubts as to whether I would buy a Casio Celviano 650 or a Kawai CN34, I officially ordered (including credit card number) the CN34 today. A friend of mine will be picking it up in Denver, CO on Sat. (Feb. 16) and bringing it back to Durango on Sun. The sales agent said this method of delivery would not affect the warranty, and it saves on shipping costs.

The two machines have many features in common although as you might expect, the CN34 has a few that the Casio 650 doesn’t have. For example the CN34 has Handbells, Tubular Bells, Church Bells, Carillon, etc. that might be fun to play with for Christmas music. On the other hand I’m not sure how I might play “Helicopter”. Alternately, you could split the keyboard so that all but one of the keys are a regular piano, and play the other note, “Applause”, at the end of your performance.

Besides the usual splits, instrument overlays, layers, etc., the CN34 has a Balance Slider that can control the relative volume of each. For example, suppose you have a musical piece where the melody is played in the lower notes by your left hand. (i.e. pv88’s Schubert) You can split the keyboard (at any arbitrary key) but keep the same instrument on both sides. Then you can use the Balance Slider to increase the relative volume of the lower notes. This is somewhat easier than trying to play fortissimo (or even louder) with your left hand at the same time your right hand is supposed to be limited to pianissimo (or even quieter).

Of course, you pay more for all of the above as a CN34 costs more than the Casio 650’s $1599.

The only uncertainty that I have is the volume of the CN34’s speakers. The CN34 will be going in a large room (ceiling slopes from 20 ft. high on one side to 25 feet on the other side). As with the 650, you can always add external speakers. I’ll let everyone know how it goes.

Congratulations on your Kawai CN34, as I think you will like the sounds, action, and response, of this digital. No need to worry about the speakers as they should be reasonably loud enough as is, although adding speakers with an additional subwoofer would help in bringing out the lower bass range.

Andy,Is your assessment based on the AP-650's built-in speakers, or while using headphones? I tinkered with the 150/350 recently and thought there was not much improvement, while using the built-in speakers. But I do think they sound a lot better than the PX-x30 with headphones. (Having said that, no they don't compare to the Roland SuperNatural right next to them with headphones, but I'm just curious if maybe some of Casio's woes result from headphone sound mastering.) Though I also thought the Roland sounded like crap through GC's external speaker setup ... perhaps that's not so surprising, heh. I did like the texture on the PX-350 keys after having used the Roland for a while.

When I got my PX slab last year, my wife (from Japan) said, "Casio, don't they make watches?" Lol, I think the AP-650 has an uphill battle as a dealer exclusive model.

Assuming the Casio Celviano AP 650 will be priced at $1599 (And I think my info on this price is reliable), I paid almost $600 more for the Kawai. I think the 650 is also a good machine – especially for its price. The problem that I ran into was the ability to buy it.

Casio will eventually get a usable dealership organization, but the problem is when. I gave up waiting for it and instead will have the CN34 by Sunday evening. (Followed by “Some adult assembly required”.)

As for a musical review, it’s been 35 years since I’ve played a piano and it’s going to take a while before I can get the old skills back. (And that’s assuming I can get my fingers to work properly.) At this point, my only review is that any piano that you can get your hands on is better than no piano.

pv88 may have a good point about the CN34 needing a subwoofer. It takes a lot of sound energy to get a good sound output for low frequencies, and the CN34 may need some help. (Note: The long string lengths of the large acoustics (equals higher energy storage capacity) are what give them their great bass tones.)

I’ve got the 2 vol. set of “The Library of Piano Classics” and think I can start in again from that level. There’s also a lot of free classical sheet music available on the Internet. For example I’ve downloaded Liszt’s 2nd Hungarian Rhapsody (which at one time I could play from memory), so I’ll have plenty to work with. The version that I downloaded appears to be a note for note match with Maxim’s video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byGI1mDi3no

Liszt will have to wait for a bit. There are portions where your right hand gets a real workout, and I may never get that ability back. I think I may try Grieg’s “In the Hall of the Mountain King” (A. Pero’s arrangement – not this version http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LAhKkPUo_A ) fairly early as that is a musical representation of where I live. (Will also give the CN34’s low notes a test. I can compare headphone output with speaker output, and if there’s a notable difference, the speakers would be assumed guilty.)

No. If you live in large city in California, I'm certain there is a close service center. Regardless in home service on Celviano products is included with your warranty.

Mike, can you tell me about Casio's in home service? The closest location from where I live will require a total of 4 hours of drive. Two round trip of 2 hours each. The two round trip is required where I'm to leave the piano at the shop for 1 week for them to diagnose and request the main board. Then I am to return to pick it up. When you speak of in-home service, this means Casio can send a tech to where I live? I've called casio before, but I was only told to drive it down to the closest location, even though I told the Casio Customer Support person that I will have to drive 4 hours total just to get the main board swapped. How do I go about requesting an in-house service? I have one of those "please wait" error message that won't go away when the piano is reset to factory settings. The piano also cannot save any settings even with the Backup switched from off to on. The other problem is that the Backup to OFF cannot be maintained after a powercycle. And then there's the "ERROR, DATA EXCHANGE" error when connecting with a laptop.

Is there anyway to upgrade the decay time for older / new models that also have the short decay time via a flash upgrade or is this an issue of not having enough physical memory? Memory are cheap these days. Not sure why the piano didn't have the longer decay time to begin with.

Mike_Martin
Full Member
Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 452
Loc: Between Chicago and NJ, USA

Pianoworldanon,I have reached out to you privately to try to help you with your situation. I needed some basic information from you, like where you bought your Casio, your product serial number and specifically who at Casio you've been in touch with. You've told me that you don't want to tell me these things.

Clearly there is a breakdown in communication at Casio which I am trying to correct. I am trying to help you. Without information from you, I can't seem to figure out where you're getting this incorrect information. Casio will provide IN HOME WARRANTY REPAIR for Celviano products. This also includes large Privia models like PX-850. As the General Manager of the division, I'm quite certain what I am talking about.

If you'd like to provide me with this information, I'd personally make an effort to get your AP-620 up and running again. I also believe that there are adjustments to the the velocity curve and the brightness setting that will make you significantly happier with your AP-620.

Pianoworldanon,I have reached out to you privately to try to help you with your situation. I needed some basic information from you, like where you bought your Casio, your product serial number and specifically who at Casio you've been in touch with. You've told me that you don't want to tell me these things.

Clearly there is a breakdown in communication at Casio which I am trying to correct. I am trying to help you. Without information from you, I can't seem to figure out where you're getting this incorrect information. Casio will provide IN HOME WARRANTY REPAIR for Celviano products. This also includes large Privia models like PX-850. As the General Manager of the division, I'm quite certain what I am talking about.

If you'd like to provide me with this information, I'd personally make an effort to get your AP-620 up and running again. I also believe that there are adjustments to the the velocity curve and the brightness setting that will make you significantly happier with your AP-620.

I've emailed you. One of the problems is that the piano can no longer save settings even though BACKUP is ON. The other issue is that it can't be reset back to factory defaults though it use to be able to and now gets the "please wait" error, though I'm fortunate that it would go away upon reboot, where as other people are not so lucky.

I just stumbled onto this old thread re Casio AP-650 dating from 2012, till April 2013. I could not help but smile and shake my head. We are now in 2015, nothing much seems to have changed, at least here in Canada, regarding the difficulty in being able to locate a dealer who sells the Privia 850/860 or the AP 650, let alone find this elusive DP to see and touch.

I don't want to rehash old news, but the AP-650 is no longer a new model, so that can't be used asan excuse for not being able to find one.

So what is Casio's reasoning that Canadians seem to be regulated to buying it from Costco, untried, unseen? I don't care how good a product is (and the AP650 seems to be a good DP for the average joe or jossie), if I can't try it I will not buy it! Call me pig headed if you wish.

I posed this question to Casio Canada recently and the reply was: "....management will decide who carries each keyboard. Not sure how they decide. You can return the keyboard if you wish to buy it from Costco....." I think they missed the point. I don't want to have to return the piano.

Great marketing!

Then there is the lack of in-home service. The comments posted in 2013 are still just as relevanttoday. If Casio wants to be considered as one of the "big boys", well then, provide in-home service, just as the other big 3 do.

I just stumbled onto this old thread re Casio AP-650 dating from 2012, till April 2013. I could not help but smile and shake my head. We are now in 2015, nothing much seems to have changed, at least here in Canada, regarding the difficulty in being able to locate a dealer who sells the Privia 850/860 or the AP 650, let alone find this elusive DP to see and touch.

I don't want to rehash old news, but the AP-650 is no longer a new model, so that can't be used asan excuse for not being able to find one.

So what is Casio's reasoning that Canadians seem to be regulated to buying it from Costco, untried, unseen? I don't care how good a product is (and the AP650 seems to be a good DP for the average joe or jossie), if I can't try it I will not buy it! Call me pig headed if you wish.

I posed this question to Casio Canada recently and the reply was: "....management will decide who carries each keyboard. Not sure how they decide. You can return the keyboard if you wish to buy it from Costco....." I think they missed the point. I don't want to have to return the piano.

Great marketing!

Then there is the lack of in-home service. The comments posted in 2013 are still just as relevanttoday. If Casio wants to be considered as one of the "big boys", well then, provide in-home service, just as the other big 3 do.

Plus ca change plus c'est pareil.

As far as I remember there is an in-home service for the topmost Privia and for the Celviano models...(It is another topic that a German webshop wrote me that they got the response I will practically not able to get any service on EU-warranty terms in Hungary)

About trying out: completely agreed. There are plenty of digital pianos from competitors you can try out on the market. If they dont want people to be able to try and compare that sounds no good... something to hide?

Yes, lack of service plus the fact that both the AP-620 and AP-650 have real issues with initial decay resonance and a pedal problem (that I documented with Casio) happen to be the main reasons the OP (Andy) and others including myself have steered clear of Casio as there are other pianos that do not have these issues.

I just stumbled onto this old thread re Casio AP-650 dating from 2012, till April 2013. I could not help but smile and shake my head. We are now in 2015, nothing much seems to have changed, at least here in Canada, regarding the difficulty in being able to locate a dealer who sells the Privia 850/860 or the AP 650, let alone find this elusive DP to see and touch.

I don't want to rehash old news, but the AP-650 is no longer a new model, so that can't be used asan excuse for not being able to find one.

So what is Casio's reasoning that Canadians seem to be regulated to buying it from Costco, untried, unseen? I don't care how good a product is (and the AP650 seems to be a good DP for the average joe or jossie), if I can't try it I will not buy it! Call me pig headed if you wish.

I posed this question to Casio Canada recently and the reply was: "....management will decide who carries each keyboard. Not sure how they decide. You can return the keyboard if you wish to buy it from Costco....." I think they missed the point. I don't want to have to return the piano.

Great marketing!

Then there is the lack of in-home service. The comments posted in 2013 are still just as relevanttoday. If Casio wants to be considered as one of the "big boys", well then, provide in-home service, just as the other big 3 do.

Plus ca change plus c'est pareil.

As always, price becomes the issue. When I bought my 850 last year I had the option, as do you, of paying hundreds more for a similar dp from Yamaha, Roland, Kawai.

Based on reviews, I was willing to take the chance, save the money and buy sight unseen. Evidently many others follow the same path as this piano seems to have sold very well for Casio.

I completely understand that you want to see and touch before you buy and other manufacturers will give you that opportunity at a higher price.

But the old buying saw still applies: Low price, high quality, great service - pick any two.