Eleven monks were treated in hospital after a fight broke out for control of the roof of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the traditional site of Jesus' crucifixion, burial and resurrection.

The fracas involved monks from the Ethiopian Orthodox church and the Coptic church of Egypt, who have been vying for control of the Jerusalem rooftop for centuries. It is not the first time monks have come to blows at Christendom's most holy place, but it is one of the most serious fights in recent times.

As black-clad monks threw stones and iron bars at each other, the Israeli police were called to restore order. Seven Ethiopian monks and four Egyptians were hurt. One of the Ethiopians was reported to be unconscious in hospital.

The fight erupted over the position of a chair used by an Egyptian monk near the entrance to the roof.

He sits there to assert the Copts' claim to the rooftop, which is mainly occupied by a few African-style huts which the Ethiopians, who have been evicted from the main church over the centuries, use as their monastery.

On a hot day, the Egyptian monk decided to move his chair out of the sun. The Ethiopians saw this as violating the "status quo", set out in a 1757 document which defines ownership of each chapel, lamp and flagstone.

After several days of rising tension, the fists began to fly on Sunday. The Egyptians said their monk was teased and poked and, in a final insult, pinched by a woman.

On Monday there was a silent stand-off on the roof, with the Ethiopians defending their property with a row of chairs.

The church is a cockpit of rivalry between Christian sects and, in the words of one historian, the "most unchristian place in the world". It is shared among six denominations, with the more powerful ones ruthlessly taking advantage of any weakness by their rivals. (The Sydney morning Herald)

On the 27th of September, 2004, at approximately 11:15 a.m. dozens of Greek Monks attacked Franciscan Friars and their personnel and the Israeli Police who were trying to defend them.

The facts occurred during the Greek Orthodox procession of the Feast of the Holy Cross in which the Greek Patriarch Irineos ordered the Franciscans to close the bronze door of their Chapel of the Apparition, also known as the blessed Sacrament Chapel. Since the Greek Patriarch has no right to make such a demand, the Franciscan representative refused to do it.

The Greek Patriarch then sent his personal bodyguard and some Greek monks to close the Chapel. In the meantime he halted the procession in the Franciscan Chapel of St. Mary Magdalene. When his bodyguard and his other representatives attempted by force to close the Chapel of the Apparition, the Israeli police intervened and formed a cordon in front of the Chapel, thereby trying to prevent further violence. After a short standoff between Israeli police and Greek Monks, the Greek Monks, many of whom were in liturgical vestments, savagely attacked the police and attempted to enter by force the Franciscan Chapel of the Apparition in order to close it. The fight lasted about 30 minutes. One Franciscan friar was beaten and kicked by Greek monks and lay people, and several police officers were moderately injured.

The Police called in reinforcements, and the Police Commander of the Old City, Col. Nisso Shacham came to scene. Only then were the Greeks forced away from the Chapel of the Apparition. Several Greek monks were arrested by the Police.

The Greek attack was unprovoked and without any real reason. Government representatives had in the previous days formally asked the Franciscans to allow the Greeks to pass through the northern section of the Chapel of St. Mary Magdalene. The reason for this request was ostensibly to keep the peace, and to avoid violence in the Basilica. There was tension because the Greeks were going to attempt, against the prevailing Status quo, to pass through the northern section of the Chapel of St. Mary Magdalene. Notwithstanding the concession made by the Franciscans to representatives of the Israeli government, to allow the Greek Procession to pass, the Greek Monks carried out this attack.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2005, 03:45:16 PM by EkhristosAnesti »

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"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus

[quote author=ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‹Å“ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒâ€šÃ‚ÂÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¹ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒâ€ Ã¢â‚¬â„¢ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¾ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¿ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂºÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â»ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â½Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â®ÃƒÆ’Ã‚ÂÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ link=topic=7319.msg95674#msg95674 date=1128973868]But something seems dreadfully wrong for monks of two churches of the same communion to act in this manner, not that this excuses the Greek/Franciscan fracas, but come on now....[/quote]

Oh come on Aristokles; there is something dreadfully wrong with monks fighting at, or for, a church. PERIOD. It’s almost as if you’re saying by your above comments: “well, if those particular Copt and Ethiopian monks had teamed up and beat up a Jew or a Catholic maybe, then that would be understandable albeit not excusable.” Are you listening to yourself? Communion defines unity in faith and worship; it does not define a greater love, respect, gentleness or kindness between the churches of that respective communion, than (i.e. in contrast to) the love, respect, gentleness or kindness owed towards other churches outside of that communion, nay, the rest of mankind.

Peace.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2005, 04:14:40 PM by EkhristosAnesti »

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"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus

Oh come on Aristokles; there is something dreadfully wrong with monks fighting at, or for, a church. PERIOD. It’s almost as if you’re saying by your above comments: “well, if those particular Copt and Ethiopian monks had teamed up and beat up a Jew or a Catholic maybe, then that would be understandable albeit not excusable.” Are you listening to yourself? Communion defines unity in faith and worship; it does not define a greater love, respect, gentleness or kindness between the churches of that respective communion, than (i.e. in contrast to) the love, respect, gentleness or kindness owed towards other churches outside of that communion, nay, the rest of mankind.

Peace.

I read somewhere that the Franciscans did have rule or agreement that when the Greeks process past their chapel that the door would indeed by closed. Now if this is true then the Fransciscans are just looking for trouble. And I would not be surprised after what happened at the Holy Seplechre when the Islmanists took control of the Eastern portion of the shrine.

Oh come on Aristokles; there is something dreadfully wrong with monks fighting at, or for, a church. PERIOD. It’s almost as if you’re saying by your above comments: “well, if those particular Copt and Ethiopian monks had teamed up and beat up a Jew or a Catholic maybe, then that would be understandable albeit not excusable.” Are you listening to yourself? Communion defines unity in faith and worship; it does not define a greater love, respect, gentleness or kindness between the churches of that respective communion, than (i.e. in contrast to) the love, respect, gentleness or kindness owed towards other churches outside of that communion, nay, the rest of mankind.

Your not-so-artful attempt to deflect criticism of your church by impuning another, while clever, fails.

Ironically, your interpretation of my post as such in addition to your initial response reflects your own attempt to evade recognition of the fact that such criticism is equally applicable to your own church regardless of the party’s involved — for criticism is valid only with respect to the nature of the acts committed; the party’s involved are peripheral.

In any event, I was not trying to deflect anything; I was updating the audience with the most recent events pertaining to the general subject of this thread. Problem?

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Re-read my post; I excused neither.

Sir, how about you re-read my post; I never claimed or implied that you excused either, I simply attacked your very clear implication that whilst both cases are inexcusable (i.e. i did in fact recognise that you were not excusing one or the other), one case is nonetheless more understandable on the basis that it is between two party’s who are not of the same communion. I see no other reasonable way to infer the purpose of your remarks. If you were a stupid man, I would infer that there was no real purpose to such remarks; however, I do not believe you are a stupid man.

Thus, in your own words: "Stop putting words 'in my mouth.'"

Peace.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2005, 07:18:03 PM by EkhristosAnesti »

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"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus

I am shocked, shocked that non-chalcedonian monks would be fighting each other. They need to save their energy for the fist fights with the chalcedonians.

Every year on cleaning day in Bethlehem, a fight breaks out between the Armenian and Greek monks who are cleaning the church. It is my understanding that the Armenians succeed in beating the cr*p out of the Greeks. I knew an American-Armenian seminarian who was there one year and saw one the the fights. He was deeply disturbed and scandalized by it and complained to the Armenian Patriarch. He said the Patriarch smiled and replied (rough translation from the Armenian) "A cleaning day without a fight would be flavorless." You'd think people by now would know not to mess with the Armenians.

Seriously, I think the whole situation over there is pretty awful. It seems everyone is so concerned with owning every inch of land that they forget that they are supposed to be acting like Christians. Perhaps we should all be praying for all the Christian communities of Jerusalem, that they may act as one.

I'd hate to be in their situation... I mean, the Jews and the Moslems are looking for every excuse to kick the Christians out - they see the ownership of such prime land in the historical-hotbox Old City to be a threat and a source of leverage. So you have them worried about their territories, which then takes precedence over everything else, because if they don't keep what they have they won't have any other place to go in the city, and will be forced to leave. Plus, the maintaining of the status quo allows them to operate without threat; any time someone makes a change (like not opening doors, or shifting places) it is seen as a threat or an affront, probably because most of the time it is. You don't live and work in that environment without having the expectations thoroughly drilled into your head.

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"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

More like you love 'to dish it out but can't take it', buddy. Grow up.

Who is the one who can’t take it here? I never complained or argued against the original article, nor did I even interpret the intent of the one who posted it as polemical or malicious. The only thought that came to mind was how sad it is that the history of this most holy place is full of such violence, even between Christians themselves. My intent was as neutral as (presuming on JoeS’s behalf) the one who posted the original article: to report certain unfortunate events and incidents that had eventuated at the Holy Sepulchre between Christians themselves — and specifically, the most recent. Since there is no objective reason that would lead you to discriminate against the intent of my first post without commenting on that of JoeS's, one can only reasonable presume that you have a personal agenda:

So the question is why can’t you take it? Why are you being so defensive? Don’t have a heart attack on me; just sit down and relax, and think before you type - I don't like exposing the fool in others. I didn’t provoke your monks to go beat up friars and attack Israeli police — that was your patriarch (plus a few unseen forces) — so why are you getting upset with me?

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Did the moslems get this "Peace"-thing from you guys or you from them?

Maybe you would like to do a comparative study with me regarding the “peace” that the Coptic Orthodox faithful suffered under Chalcedonian vs. Islamic rule; I will thence explain how the prophet of doom came to be known (relatively) as the prophet of peace to the Copts. At that stage, you will understand why your question is loaded, and hence invalid — in fact, at that stage you might want to answer a couple of questions for yourself - you know, not out loud or anything, just to and for yourself.

Oh by the way, here are some excerpts from another news report on the “peace” of your monks and patriarch “peaceful” at the Holy Sepulchre — just reporting the facts, don’t get angry, please:

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This morning (Monday), at about eleven o'clock in the morning, dozens of GreekOrthodox monks, led by their Patriarch Irineos (which means “peaceful”), rampagedthrough parts of the Basilica of the Holy Sepulchre Basilica in Jerusalem, assaultingpolice and attacking the Franciscan Friars.

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arrived at the place, the Greek Orthodox Patriarch and his men, insteadof simply passing through, began a frenzy of violence, physically attacking the police andthe Franciscan Friars. Observers in Jerusalem say that the level of aggression on the partof the Greek Orthodox monks at the Holy Places has risen appreciably since the presentPatriarch came into office. “Only ironically he can be named ‘Irineos’ (the peaceful)”,

Notice: The observers said that the violence of the Greek monks had “risen appreciably”; this implies that they have some sort of a track record or history of violence against which the particular violence of that particular event could be measured.

Peace.

« Last Edit: October 11, 2005, 04:26:33 AM by EkhristosAnesti »

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"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus

As always, we forget the true meaning of being a true Christian (Orthodox) and we do not show a good example of this....I am sure our Lord Jesus would not be too thrilled the way we handled it on the roof top.

Fortunately my Coptic friends who commune in my parish every week give me a more balanced view of your church that I can get from the internet fora.

Love

[/quote]

Are they "Coptic" in faith/theology are just ethnicity? Sorry, but that was a loaded statement. For example, at my OCA parish, my priest has baptized maybe 50+ Eritrean children since he's been a priest (6 or 7 years now). He recently chrismated some of the older adults after consulting with the Bishop since he was unsure how they were received into the parish when they joined 15+ years ago. And there are a few that just don't commune, but come regularly since I guess they want to remain coptic (including someone I've been told is a Coptic Deacon who is there most Sundays).

“you started it” — and I have my own concept of what it means to “be the better man”; to be the better man for me, is to not let the one at fault get away with it.

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Friend, you are entirely too easy to bait.

I knew my last response would keep you quiet; i hope you’ve learnt your lesson...

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Fortunately my Coptic friends who commune in my parish every week give me a more balanced view of your church that I can get from the internet fora.

You will never meet a Copt like me; consider it a positive thing, or consider it a negative thing - that is your problem. Not only do Muslims, Atheists, Protestants and Greeks hate me, but believe me, Copts hate me as well — especially converts; so you’re not alone.

By the way, why don’t you pose that question regarding Copts and Islamics to your Coptic friends, and report back to me with their reactions.

Peace.

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No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus

Why do the people on this site always gain up and attack others?ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I’m highly impressed with the Christian behavior shown continuously from well-educated Christians on this site.

There was a statement made on a different thread that I would like to reemphasize, “Christianity is the Right faith, given to the Wrong people” shamefully I’m starting to believe that by the behavior I’m always witnessing especially on this site.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

One cannot convert to Coptism.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Even if the Coptic Pope of Alexandria himself were to baptize me I would still remain an American of Northern European descent.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

Silouan,

Please have some respect for our Pope, how would you like it if I said, “if the Greek Archbishop Chrisrtodoulos Paraskevaides himself were to baptize me I would still remain Egyptian (Coptic Orthodox)”?

And EkhristosAnesti, never said that in order to be Coptic you have to be Egyptian nor come from Egyptian descent.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š He clearly sees it as a faith and the true faith at that because he is extremely passionate and shows great zeal for his church.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

I pray that the great minds on this site let God guide their fingers and minds when they are writing up their posts and not the Devil.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

In His name

« Last Edit: October 12, 2005, 01:18:26 AM by joyisgod »

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“I who am but dust and ashes have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord” (Gn 18:27).

Please have some respect for our Pope, how would you like it if I said, “if the Greek Archbishop Chrisrtodoulos Paraskevaides himself were to baptize me I would still remain Egyptian (Coptic Orthodox)”?

No matter who baptizes you, you can never be un-copticed (if that makes sense). Being Coptic is an ETHNIC identity. Belonging to the Oriental Orthodox Communion under the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of Alexandria is a religious matter. That is what I am saying. Unless you believe your baptism can change my genetic make up than what I said has no disrespect in it.

One cannot convert to Coptism.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Even if the Coptic Pope of Alexandria himself were to baptize me I would still remain an American of Northern European descent.

What on earth are you on about?!

Never have I stated or implied that one somehow loses their ethnic identity or national ancestry once converting to the Coptic Orthodox Church; that would be utterly and blatantly stupid of me — and if I have ever resorted to such a level of utter and blatant stupidity, I would like to be notified of it ASAP; so please, refresh my memory, because I do not recall ever saying anything of the sort.

Peace.

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No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus

I knew my last response would keep you quiet; i hope you’ve learnt your lesson...

No, the rules of this forum prevent my real response.

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You will never meet a Copt like me; consider it a positive thing, or consider it a negative thing - that is your problem. Not only do Muslims, Atheists, Protestants and Greeks hate me, but believe me, Copts hate me as well — especially converts; so you’re not alone.

Somehow...I don't doubt this!

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By the way, why don’t you pose that question regarding Copts and Islamics to your Coptic friends, and report back to me with their reactions.

Already been done, except the 'report back to you' which will never happen.

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

You can disguise your own foolishness under whatever ad hominem remark or comment you want, but I am content with the fact that any reasonable person who has read this exchange from its inception would’ve realised that you’re just not man enough to get over the fact that a) you misinterpreted my initial post and b) you misinterpreted it because you’re as defensive and sensitive as a female with PMS.

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Actually you posted here first.

Actually, whoever literally posted here is not the point; my post involved pasting an independent news report on a subject related to the topic of this thread — your reaction involved an unwarranted misinterpretation and consequent cry — read above for reasons why.

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No, the rules of this forum prevent my real response.

No, really, I’m glad you’ve learnt your lesson — just don’t forget yourself next time because it won’t get any easier for you.

You stated in this thread that Copts hate you, including the converts.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š So apparently you think it is possible to convert to Coptic ethnicity.

Ah no...; that’s simply you employing the fallacy of ambiguity - specifically that of equivocation. I have quite clearly used the term Coptic in the context of faith - to denote a member of the Coptic Orthodox Church: one who is baptised into the Coptic Orthodox Church, and hence under the authority of the Coptic Patriarchate. I made that explicitly clear in a previous thread in which you yourself participated, and implicitly clear in this thread when I listed the term Coptic amongst other titles that specifically denote religious faith. In fact, the very observation of the fact that I used the term "convert" in application to the term "Coptic" is in itself enough evidence for any reasonable person to reasonably presume that I am using the term in a religious context rather than an ethnic one.

Furthermore, the context of my employment of the term Coptic is not based on a connotation of the term Coptic that I have created myself: