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But you're reading things people aren't saying into their posts, which in turn makes you come across as very argumentative, and as if you are intentionally twisting everyone else's words. It's not possible to have discussion when you state things which are contrary to what we have said, and claim you are repeating our viewpoint, then arguing against it.

You are projecting being argumentative.

I have explicitly stated to your post that I am not disagreeing with you and tried to follow Peter Senge's advice....."Ask for understanding instead of asking to be understood."

This is an internet BB.....where ideas are communicated thru the written word, not thru face-to-face conversation.

So, if I am asking questions for clarification, perhaps it is because your written words are confusing to me.

Do not confuse motion and progress. A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress.Alfred A. Montapert

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I need to get on my laptop to see the BB videos, my phone won't play them easily. At the start of the thread I was thinking more generally about things like disengaging the hind end that works in western horsemanship but seems counter productive to an uphill balance. I will have to watch the videos and see how that translates.

Disengaging the hind end is a tiny and foundational thing that Vaquero horsemen do. It is done as one of the first things someone like Brannaman will teach folks on the ground. The next move to come in this progression about teaching the horse on the ground involves moving the front end around that hind end. You can be quite sure that the horse has to squat to do it. You can see the horse raise the front of his ribcage and lower his hindquarters. All this happens about 2' from you.

The armchair saddler Politically Pro-Cat

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Disengaging the hind end is a tiny and foundational thing that Vaquero horsemen do. It is done as one of the first things someone like Brannaman will teach folks on the ground. The next move to come in this progression about teaching the horse on the ground involves moving the front end around that hind end. You can be quite sure that the horse has to squat to do it. You can see the horse raise the front of his ribcage and lower his hindquarters. All this happens about 2' from you.

Ok good to know. I've been watching some folks work on perfecting disengaging haunches for years, and when they get to moving the shoulders its really on the forehand. Not necessarily BB followers but people who have mixed western horsemanship and dressage.

I have explicitly stated to your post that I am not disagreeing with you and tried to follow Peter Senge's advice....."Ask for understanding instead of asking to be understood."

This is an internet BB.....where ideas are communicated thru the written word, not thru face-to-face conversation.

So, if I am asking questions for clarification, perhaps it is because your written words are confusing to me.

So, while perhaps you aren't being "argumentative," you are creatively attributing unmade and unfelt sentiments which halt discussion. There is no way to discuss this with you, as you are projecting something different than said, in a way which brooks no discussion.

Anyone else who wants to discuss, I'm open to. I'm done trying to understand the argumentative nature of someone who I don't think actually disagrees with me on this.

If Kim Kardashian wants to set up a gofundme to purchase the Wu Tang album from Martin Shkreli, guess what people you DON'T HAVE TO DONATE.
-meupatdoes

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Ok good to know. I've been watching some folks work on perfecting disengaging haunches for years, and when they get to moving the shoulders its really on the forehand. Not necessarily BB followers but people who have mixed western horsemanship and dressage.

We don't have strong Vaquero teachers around here.

Yup.

More and more, I think this kind of thing is going to be true-- there are lots of lower level pros hanging out their shingle in X or Y discipline. That's because it takes years (which amounts to money (as well as desire and access to expertise and time) to learn to make up a bridle horse, or a GP horse or any other top-level horse.

In the meantime, please don't write off all of "Western Horsemanship" if you only know about the beginning stages of how those guys train. That's just not fair. And surely you'd be quick to correct anyone who said dressage was not useful for making jumpers because folks spend a lot of time teaching their horses to trot with their nose on the ground for a circle.

And I think that when you at least watch Brannaman ride, you'll see that he's a competent horseman. He shouldn't be conflated with the super-basic guy that Linda Parelli made.

The armchair saddler Politically Pro-Cat

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But I would like to remind everyone this wasn't a Buck B bashing thread as some seem to think (to clarify i haven't seen anyone bash him.) If anything I think most people on this thread to respect him as a Horseman.

My original question was more does Buck B/vaquero riding basically equal dressage or is best to blend what you can use and leave out the rest? And if some things are things determinetal to progressing in dressage why does that upset people? Does Buck advertise as a dressage trainer? I honestly never made that connection until recently. I will go audit his more advanced clinic next time.

I don't see why we can't objectively look at things and decide what to use and what not too. I do this with most trainers, including Dressage trainers. If I disagree with an exercise, I'll ask a question. If they can't answer it or it still doesn't feel right, I just don't do it at home. Sometimes I can still learn a lot from someone I don't totally agree with all the time.

Anyways, that's all I have time for now.

*I know most people do take a bit here and there. But I see some defensiveness that seems unnecessary.

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But I would like to remind everyone this wasn't a Buck B bashing thread as some seem to think (to clarify i haven't seen anyone bash him.) If anything I think most people on this thread to respect him as a Horseman.

My original question was more does Buck B/vaquero riding basically equal dressage or is best to blend what you can use and leave out the rest? And if some things are things determinetal to progressing in dressage why does that upset people? Does Buck advertise as a dressage trainer? I honestly never made that connection until recently. I will go audit his more advanced clinic next time.

I don't see why we can't objectively look at things and decide what to use and what not too. I do this with most trainers, including Dressage trainers. If I disagree with an exercise, I'll ask a question. If they can't answer it or it still doesn't feel right, I just don't do it at home. Sometimes I can still learn a lot from someone I don't totally agree with all the time.

Anyways, that's all I have time for now.

*I know most people do take a bit here and there. But I see some defensiveness that seems unnecessary.

I think you can pick and choose from various training styles. But!!! It takes a very, very educated and brave horseman to do that. I don't mean an educated rider or educated trainer. I mean a great "horseman" in the fullest sense of the word. Here, I think you need to an end goal in mind. You also must have the ability to mesh the way one expert would get a horse to use his mind and body with what you think will work for your horse. And you must take total responsibility for your ability to read your horse's mind and body.

Most people, most of the time (including Brannaman as well as some good dressage riders I know) actually recommend the opposite: You need to pick a system and follow it. Some of them have what they think is a good point: All of us, at some point, will get to a sticky part of the horse's training. It can come from the horse and, usually, it comes from our lack of education. Right there, it takes courage and clarity to make a breakthrough in the horse's training. And this is also the point where so many of us (myself included) are tempted to look for some kind of "sideways" move that we think will hold some kind of other path to our goal; we fire our trainer and hire another one.

Sometimes we are right, and sometimes we are wrong. It takes a horseman who is pretty brave about putting some rational-but-listening pressure on a horse to help him advance. But figuring out how to avoid all pressure on the horse is to agree to let him, say, repeat the second grade forever.

Personally, I want help and supervision with that from someone who has made a horse that I want to make mine like. And another requirement of mine is that I can understand the logic of what the expert would have me do. I'm not totally uneducated and I'll have to do most of the riding myself after the lesson, so if I don't think I can get it and reproduce it (knowing when to pressure and when to praise), I can't take up that bit of training. But after that, I try to stick with their system until I find something that's obviously better. And that "better" has got to be super-obvious, super-better.

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We don't know anything about this horse....
We don't know why the horse is being backed up.....
We don't know if it came to this clinic that way.....
We don't know what is happening in these short clips.....

Ergo, jumping immediately to criticize is a tad premature.

I believe he refers to the the as his.

As part of BB training, backing up serves as softening the contact and putting the horse on its hind.
If the horse isn't his, he makes no comments about improving whatever is going on thus considering that's what the other participant should emulate. He is using this horse as a demo horse.
Hum... I believe it is quite clear what is happening in these short clips. He talks about how/what/why to do.

I'm not critizing, but explaining why I believe I would not use him as a trainer, use his training techniques, if my goal was to go up the dressage level.

I am not saying his training wouldn't produce a reliable, easy all arounder mount. It's just not the fastest way to achieve dressage goals.

The video clips are of a training event. This is NOT a competition. Again, this immediate jump to "dressage is competition" vs "dressage is training."

Because dressage training's purpose is to create a dressage horse that will/should perfom at dressage shows.

BB's training is to create a pleasant horse to ride in all situation. BB's training is not a discipline in itself.

Jumping training is aimed to create good show jumpers.

Reining training is geared toward creating show reiner horses.

Etc.

That doesn't mean horses in the other disciplines don't need to be pleasant in all situation, but it is not the only goal.

There is nothing in the work that BB has done that would preclude any rider from moving up the levels....which is what the OP was originally asking about.

Untraining the rushed back up and the subsequently apparent behind the bit/contact issue will need to be fixed. That's why I said I'd rather not train in this fashion if the goal is to go up the dressage levels.

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My actual schooling time in the saddle is under the direction of my dressage coach. I haven't found a more coherent and effective system and I like how her horses go.

I also learned an enormous amount from our regional Medium Big Name Trainer on bombproofing and ground manners. The dressage system just doesn't have direction on these basics. But as far as riding goes, I think our M-BNT is a bit crude and I don't follow him there. Even though he espouses dressage.

Then I picked up a third modality, clicker training. I have used this primarily for tricks and some behavior and manners stuff. It is not effective for me under saddle (except to teach a sliding stop), and it is not effective when the horse is highly excited, either fear or high spirits. But it is fantastic for a range of fun liberty work and getting horse to stand quiet for saddling and mounting.

The M-BNT ground work guru doesn't like the clicker training. The trainer who introduced me to clicker has gone 100% R + with the result that I don't think she can ride her horse much and she thinks I'm a bit fast and easy with my trick training.

My dressage trainer on the other hand thinks its all a hoot especially when my mare picks up dropped gloves and hands them to her.

What's my point? You can mix and match but you have to look at the horse in front of you and make sure you like the result.

I can do lateral work in hand with a snaffle bridle, very correct. I can do lateral work in a rope halter if I pay attention to the bend. I can do lateral work at liberty with a treat in my fist and sometimes my mare shows the best lift and movement that way because it's fun. But the snaffe work is necessary. And I m trying for the same posture snaffle or halter or liberty.

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As part of BB training, backing up serves as softening the contact and putting the horse on its hind.
If the horse isn't his, he makes no comments about improving whatever is going on thus considering that's what the other participant should emulate. He is using this horse as a demo horse.
Hum... I believe it is quite clear what is happening in these short clips. He talks about how/what/why to do.

I'm not critizing, but explaining why I believe I would not use him as a trainer, use his training techniques, if my goal was to go up the dressage level.

I am not saying his training wouldn't produce a reliable, easy all arounder mount. It's just not the fastest way to achieve dressage goals.

Because dressage training's purpose is to create a dressage horse that will/should perfom at dressage shows.

BB's training is to create a pleasant horse to ride in all situation. BB's training is not a discipline in itself.

Jumping training is aimed to create good show jumpers.

Reining training is geared toward creating show reiner horses.

Etc.

That doesn't mean horses in the other disciplines don't need to be pleasant in all situation, but it is not the only goal.

Untraining the rushed back up and the subsequently apparent behind the bit/contact issue will need to be fixed. That's why I said I'd rather not train in this fashion if the goal is to go up the dressage levels.

With all due respect, Brannaman is making Vaquero/Californio bridle horses. Those are way, way more than "pleasant all-arounders."

I agree that most Western horsemen and most of what you will see from Brannaman is a horse that is too light in the (snaffle) contact for the purposes of going up the levels in dressage.

But if you told him that you wanted him to put his snaffle horse up into the contact, I'll bet that guy could get that horse to go that way, in short order. He has the feel it takes to produce the ride someone wants.

And the "rushed back up" isn't so. If you watch more videos of Brannaman teaching horses to back up, or watch him at clinics, he's the guy that's having you move just one front foot (and really, one diagonal pair of feet) at time. He can also make a horse lean forward or backward without moving his feet at all. Seriously. The guy does *not* send a horse rushing backward; he can, at will, ask for a series of steps back. And because he asks the horse to do that with timed aids that allow the horse to keep his balance, the animal can take a series of quick steps backward, if asked.

In fact, I have found Brannaman's interest in "riding the horse's feet" (my term) really helpful for dressage. I have found that I can reliably produce the number of steps back that are asked for-- no more and no less-- because I watched Brannaman teach folks how to move those feet, one at a time. There's more that has helped my dressage that comes from the way he teaches people to think hard about how and when to ask a horse to move a food. If you embrace this technique, you become a very accurate rider.

The armchair saddler Politically Pro-Cat

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I'm in the camp of 'pick and choose' but with intention on why you're cherry-picking select items.

I'm a low-to-mid-level dressage rider that has no real high-level competition aspirations. I also want a fun horse that I can trust outside of the dressage ring and that is easy to handle on the ground.

For handing I take gleans of training from people like Buck, Warwick Schiller, and similar. Horse needs to respect my personal space, move forward from pressure, and understand pressure/release, allow me to control each part of their body from the ground, etc. I also do long-lining and lunging more in-tune with "classical dressage" - but that's to establish contact and start lateral flexion/balance while working on a circle. I also use long-lining to expose the horse to the outside world witout having to be in the saddle.

For basic baby work under saddle I really like Warwick Schiller's approach of focus, balance, and straightness. I want a horse that is comfortable carrying themselves with little to no management from me while staying balanced and straight. This is key in dressage and I think Warwick has a nice approach for helping green horses establish this before getting into the dressage training scale.

Once I have a balanced, straight, confident, and worry-free horse on the ground and under-saddle, we switch gears a bit and focus on more 'classical' dressage. Now I still will incorporate principles of western training (pressure/release, make the wrong thing hard and the right thing easy, etc) but I expect the horse to move into contact, have a healthy relationship with the bit, move forward and over their back, etc.

Is Buck B dressage? No. Can learning from him turn you into a more well-rounded horseman and could even help you unlock certain concepts within dressage? Sure! But I have always believed in learning all I can and adopting ideas where I find them helpful and passing them by when I don't.

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This is an interesting treatise and worth the read, except I've skipped a lot of it.....I saw Buck's movie and at the end he gives a demo on his black horse - as I recall it is light, willing, balanced and would score well in any marked test.

Proud member of People Who Hate to Kill Wildlife clique

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Interesting discussion! I am a lifelong rider (50 years or so), been using dressage to work with my mare for the last 6 or 8 years. I'm not competition oriented or driven. Just enjoy a supple, nice riding horse. I've been riding with Buck for the last six years as well, so I have done a lot of combining of disciplines. I have learned a lot about the mechanics of good horsemanship from him. But the primary and hugely significant thing that I soak in from him is the mental / relationship part. And that to me has been priceless and something that I've never experienced with any other BN trainers that I have audited or ridden with. I think I read all of the posts here, and was surprised that no one mentioned this - or I missed it. Either way, I enjoy the sharing and thank the OP for starting this (and hope your pup is doing better!) conversation.

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Lucky you, 747, to ride with Buck for so long. My lifelong dream has to be able to bring a horse along that is light and willing and finally I have my homebred mare that is just that - a squeeze of the glutes, shoulders to the right, eyes right, flex the hip and a transition - no bit or a plastic one, no spurs, stick sure footed and brave. She was born polite and gentle, yet is forward with exact same amount of whoa and go. Jumps wth style, good mover.....not to Buck's standards,
obviously!

One of the eye opening moments of his movie was a peek inside the tack room - beautiful handmade quality tack.

Proud member of People Who Hate to Kill Wildlife clique

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I've enjoyed this thread. Man, it was a culture shock coming to the UK from Colorado, the latter a place where the work of people like Brannaman and Rashid is accessible to anyone willing to look for it, and at least at the barn I was at, achieving that kind of relationship with your horse was SOP. I haven't found that at all here. The dominant paradigm is still dominance. Not everywhere, and if you hang about on the British equivalent of this forum, there are many sensitive, knowledgeable horsemen and women posting. But on the ground, I don't see it. They must live in different parts of the UK!

Instead, there is an antagonistic philosophy towards problem solving that assumes the horse is being "cheeky" or "naughty" and treats him accordingly. It never becomes self-reflective, where the rider/trainer asks themselves, have I explained it well enough to the horse? Are my aids clear? Is the horse mentally with me? Am I doing something to block the horse? Is the horse physically and mentally prepared for the task? This is surely the underlying philosophy of Mark and Buck and similar trainers, something applicable to any discipline.

I think my fellow liveries believe my horse came out her mother's womb with perfect ground manners (I can assure you, she did not). It was very telling once when my friend who rides her when I'm out of town was on a hack and dropped her whip. She jumped off to get it, then parked the horse next to a dodgy gate to climb back on. Because I trained her years ago to do this, horse stood stock still as friend wobbled onto the gate and clambered into the saddle. The barn owners, who were on the hack with her, looked astonished and commented, "Wow, I can't believe she just stood there like that."

Help me keep my horse in peppermints and enjoy a great read! My New York City crime novel, available on Amazon.

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With all due respect, Brannaman is making Vaquero/Californio bridle horses. Those are way, way more than "pleasant all-arounders."

I agree that most Western horsemen and most of what you will see from Brannaman is a horse that is too light in the (snaffle) contact for the purposes of going up the levels in dressage.

But if you told him that you wanted him to put his snaffle horse up into the contact, I'll bet that guy could get that horse to go that way, in short order. He has the feel it takes to produce the ride someone wants.

And the "rushed back up" isn't so. If you watch more videos of Brannaman teaching horses to back up, or watch him at clinics, he's the guy that's having you move just one front foot (and really, one diagonal pair of feet) at time. He can also make a horse lean forward or backward without moving his feet at all. Seriously. The guy does *not* send a horse rushing backward; he can, at will, ask for a series of steps back. And because he asks the horse to do that with timed aids that allow the horse to keep his balance, the animal can take a series of quick steps backward, if asked.

In fact, I have found Brannaman's interest in "riding the horse's feet" (my term) really helpful for dressage. I have found that I can reliably produce the number of steps back that are asked for-- no more and no less-- because I watched Brannaman teach folks how to move those feet, one at a time. There's more that has helped my dressage that comes from the way he teaches people to think hard about how and when to ask a horse to move a food. If you embrace this technique, you become a very accurate rider.

I think it is absolutely valuable to train a dressage horse along these lines. For me, I want my dressage horse to be sensitive. The more control over the movement the better. This especially relates to backing up and the required amount of steps. Accurate riding is needed in dressage as we must perform various gaits and movements at designated places around the arena.

A friend (with a fairly dull horse) rode my P.R.E. once and found him to be very sensitive. For me, that's just right as our movements look effortless and are done with subtle aids. I have also learned a lot of body control with. I feel as though dressage has this in common with what Brannaman is producing. Perhaps not the same "style" with respect to lightness and posture in some instances but the end goal is to have a very accurate and seemingly effortless ride.

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With all due respect, Brannaman is making Vaquero/Californio bridle horses. Those are way, way more than "pleasant all-arounders."

I didn't meant that in a pejorative way.

Working horses have to be level headed, pleasant to ride, and do whatever tasks thrown at them.

Agile and smart.

I agree that most Western horsemen and most of what you will see from Brannaman is a horse that is too light in the (snaffle) contact for the purposes of going up the levels in dressage.

And that's one reason why I said I wouldn't train in his style because of that.

But if you told him that you wanted him to put his snaffle horse up into the contact, I'll bet that guy could get that horse to go that way, in short order. He has the feel it takes to produce the ride someone wants.

And the "rushed back up" isn't so. If you watch more videos of Brannaman teaching horses to back up, or watch him at clinics, he's the guy that's having you move just one front foot (and really, one diagonal pair of feet) at time.

When a horse ducks his nose into its chest to back up, it is pulled and rushed. Not what I want in dressage to begin with or retrain. I want good activity, not quickness.

He can also make a horse lean forward or backward without moving his feet at all. Seriously. The guy does *not* send a horse rushing backward; he can, at will, ask for a series of steps back. And because he asks the horse to do that with timed aids that allow the horse to keep his balance, the animal can take a series of quick steps backward, if asked.

In fact, I have found Brannaman's interest in "riding the horse's feet" (my term) really helpful for dressage. I have found that I can reliably produce the number of steps back that are asked for-- no more and no less-- because I watched Brannaman teach folks how to move those feet, one at a time. There's more that has helped my dressage that comes from the way he teaches people to think hard about how and when to ask a horse to move a food. If you embrace this technique, you become a very accurate rider.

This is what you can read in most, if not all, dressage training litterature.

From the French to the German, moving one feet at a time, knowing where feets are, counted walk, accuracy, timeing and feel, etc.

It is good that it has helped you to understand these concepts, sometime, it's the way a teacher says stuff that it starts to make sense.

I've never trained following any of his techniques, and I feel my degree of accuracy, and what was taught to me and expected from me as a rider is any less of what I assume he is expecting/asking.

I just don't understand why I would seek training advices from someone else than one that has produce whatever type of riding I want to do successfully.

I've had the opportunity to have really good Western and English trainers, and sure, it has helped my overall learning and filled my toolbox, but I came to realised that what's normal/good for one discipline might not be the best for another. I'd rather put my money on someone who's doing what I want to accomplish if I want to go further, faster and better.

The big difference between the SRS vintage film and the BB video is that the SRS horses are lifting more in the sternum, and in some cases articulating the hocks more. The vintage film is slowed in places, and speeded in others, so it's not totally accurate to how the horses would be looking IRL.

Now BB may get to the point of lifting the sternum and getting the horse to sit more at some point. But he isn't doing it in these videos. The horse is neutral/downhill in posture.

Yes, I think you could take a nice ranch horse started by BB and get it more uphill, get it to track up with the hinds and lift in the sternum and stretch over the back. As colt starting this is just fine. But I don't see anything *in these videos* that is getting the horse lifting in front. "Lightness" to me is the feeling of the horse lifting in front, not necessarily going on super light contact. If there are videos of BB where his horses are lifting the sternum, articulating the hocks, tracking up behind, etc., I'd be happy to see them and to stand corrected.

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I spent just a few minutes on youtube looking for videos of Buck riding one of his bridle horses but didn't really find anything. The best place to see him is at one of his clinics. Before the afternoon class - generally - he works one of his finished horses as the clinic participants watch in awed silence. You will see a bit of everything from lateral work to collection, to extensions. And there's no tail wringing, hard eyes, pinned ears or other signs of discomfort or unhappiness. I would compare it to watching a dressage master - yes, different saddle but the unity and beauty are just amazing.

I ride my mare in both a Wade tree Western saddle and a Schleese Obrigado. The only thing that changes is what kind of boots I put on I get the same movement, sternum lift, etc. But as I said before, my goals are not competition related, and possibly the OP's goals are more that direction.