JLUCast 5: “Paradise Lost”

August 23, 2018

Great Hera! Wonder Woman returns to Themyscira to find it in ruins, her mother and sisters turned to stone! It will take the Amazing Amazon and her Justice League teammates to defeat the demonic evil of Felix Faust, and Lord Hades himself!

I’m no Neil deGrasse Tyson, but I am a science presenter! I haven’t seen the episode in question, but where, latitudally speaking, was the JLA communicator buried? Because the ground moves. The fossil of Tiktaalik roseae was dug up on Ellsmere Island, within the arctic circle. When the animal was alive, 375 million years ago, it was in the tropics. That chunk of land essentially traveled from the equator to the Arctic. Even if Aquaman accurately predicted what piece of Earth would be near the surface at the site of the future Hall of Justice, having survived tectonic shifts and the rock cycle, the excavators and bulldozers employed during construction probably would have damaged it!

While I enjoyed your discussion of these Paradise Lost episodes, I do feel the need to defend Hippolyta’s decision to exile Diane. Yes, Hippolyta wields a great deal of authority as the queen, but that authority is based, in part, on her ability to enforce the law. It would be one thing to pardon Diane, if she landed the Javelin in a no parking zone on her way to confront Faust, but the law against men setting foot on the island is a big one. To suspend that law would be to threaten the very principles upon which Amazon society is founded. That being said, I agree completely that the real reason for the exile was drama.

Apparently, back in Wonder Woman Vol 1 #216, it was stated that it was the goddess Aphrodite’s law that no man was to set foot on the island. I’m not arguing that the DCAU is bound by pre-Crisis comic book continuity, but it does raise the possibility that this law was imposed upon the Amazons by the gods, rather than it being a law that they themselves passed. If that’s the case, then Hippolyta’s hands truly would be tied in the matter of Diane’s breaking of the law.

Now, I’ll stop beating this horse before it dies. If it hasn’t already done so.

In “Secret Origins”, Diana choose to leave the island to help the outer world in peril, and wanted to stay to help the League as well as experience the… wonders the rest of the world had to offer (like mocha-chinos). Also, according to this episode, she had been defending the world from peril for eight months.

I believe that Diana wanted to live in the outer world, and I think her mother knew it as well, so Hippolyta was punishing Diana to both uphold the law as well as essentially give her what she wanted. Of course, I am sure that Diana did not want the condition that she could “never” see her mother or her Amazonian sisters ever again — as evidenced by her reaction to said punishment…

Hmmm…maybe. I’m not really seeing that, but the subtext may be there, especially given Hippolyta’s prayer for Diana at episode’s end.

I think I would lean more toward Brian’s comic explanation above, filtered through the episode’s backstory on Hippolyta and her punishment for falling in with Hades. She plays strictly be the rules now, because the one time she broke them, it cost her and EVERYONE , dearly.

But either way, it’s fun to think about. Thanks for the discussion, fellas!

Xum, I agree that, at the end of the episode, there is the feel of a mother bird kicking her fledgling out of the nest. An act that can seem harsh to outside observers, but which is ultimately for the young bird’s own good.

It’s probably safe to say that both factors (a queen’s need to enforce the law, and a mother showing her daughter some “tough” love) are probably at play to varying degrees in Hippolyta’s decision.

Regardless, if there’s one thing I’ve learned watching my wife relate to her own mother and our daughter, it’s that the mother-daughter relationship is a complex and mysterious thing that I, with my puny male brain, will never fully understand.

Well put, Brian. Hippolyta is the Queen of the Amazons, not the dictator of the Amazons, and she must serve at the pleasure of the gods, at least Athena and Hera. The rules must be followed. At least the Amazons, and Wonder Woman, did not lose their powers/ immortality because of men on the island, as would have been the case in “old” continuity.

For the reused bit of animation hey maybe it’s the room were the Amazons keep the purple ray.

A good episode love all the Greek myth stuff always am a sucker for that.

Hades coming on to wonder woman let it be known the Greek gods were had no problem and were up for anything.
And man talk about sexual innuendos with hades.

Faust always tends to come to bad ends which keeps with certain versions of the Faust story.
The deaths in this series are very intense looking back.

I think the skeleton warriors are supposed to be the spartoi from Greek myth.

Diana’s mom while as kid I found it frustrating her reasoning makes sense as she is queen and that comes first. Though I agree she should be able to change the rule.
Its alot better then her portrayal in justice league action.

That john Easter agg man talk about obsurce.
Maybe it was a Martian that found it’s way to earth and met a bad end.

Because of the first part of the episode and my very limited/non-existant knowledge of DC when the episode first aired, I assumed Hades was Diana’s father considering just how much he kept pursuing Hipployta and why Diana had black hair instead of blonde. Then came part 2 and his creepy going after Diana as well. Granted these are Greeks but then I realized that just a coincidence…I think. Now I need to go back and listen to the backlog!

I think Cindy is on to something in terms of what would and wouldn’t be acceptable in today’s world versus the world of 2001. Probably more like 2000 given production lead time. There was a time when this sort of behavior was acceptable and common. My sticking point is labeling what the Flash did specifically “locker room talk”. I could almost see it if we were taking into account that this was a cartoon aimed at kids with toys and junk. Looking at it from that perspective you could call it locker room talk for kids.

Looking at it from another perspective; while I can’t defend the number of times he was all keyed up I laugh at the “ice mochas” line every time I hear it. It’s almost endearing. Like on one hand he’s being all “I’m a man in an island full of women who haven’t seen a woman in forever!” before breaking into “Score Tonight” from Grease 2. He assumes that because he’s male and they’re female and haven’t seen too many guys that he is going to (insert sexist comment about having lots of sex). The iced mochas line is what saves it and almost makes him look pathetic. Here is his adolescent dream and his big move is iced coffee. Add to the fact that an island full of women separated from man’s world would find other ways of dealing with certain things and the Flash comes off as comically clueless.

I know that we are in the middle of a paradigm shift when it comes to men finally not acting like jackasses and then calling it acceptable behavior because boys will be boys or some bull**** like that. And I am glad that this sort of humor is slowly going away. I just don’t know if I can be too hard on that scene.

Hmmmm…I realize that might come off as a little argumentative. So let me leave with this; I love this show. I’ve said it before and said it again, listening to this reminds me of conversations Rachel and I have had after watching this series. I’m curious what something between Cindy and Rachel would sound like actually. Anyway, thanks again for doing some an amazing job covering what Rob Kelly rightly called the greatest animated version of the Justice League ever. Or something like that.

And next time is War World, right? I cannot tell you how much I lost my freaking mind seeing huge chunks of my favorite Superman story ever being adapted into animation.

Some good points Mr. Bailey. I agree that Flash being “lame” at his skirt-chasing persona helps save it a bit. And I honestly don’t think anyone should take too much offense at it even today. There are still plenty of guys out there like that. The rest of the Leaguers certainly don’t condone it, so he comes across as a jackass whenever he goes there. I don’t think we’d get as many instances of it on a show made for kids and adults… but then there are very few of those out there nowadays either.

Yep, War World is next. I remember digging the “Exile” elements as well, although the 2-parter’s reputation is pretty low among fans of the show. Looking forward to seeing how we feel about it all these years later!

So glad to have the JLUCast back! And very psyched for the return of the House of Franklinstein! It’s a good time to be following the F&W Network! Others have weighed in more than well enough on the Flash’s behavior and Hippolyta’s ruling, so I’ll chime in on the Superman/Wonder Woman battle outcome discussion:
Ultimately, I side with Chris in that if all things are equal, Superman wins in a straight up fight. He’s Superman: if he’s not the most powerful superhero on the League, then, what’s his niche, exactly? He’s the big gun. WW has plenty of other well-earned niches to fill without needing to fill that one as well. I will say that her powers being magical in nature SHOULD give her more of an edge than most other contenders, but Superman’s “vulnerability” to magic is perhaps one of the most inconsistently applied ideas in all of superhero comics

Agreed, agreed, and agreed Max! “Vulnerable to magic” is so open to interpretation, its like saying humans are vulnerable to gravity. Of course we are, but unless I fall off a tall object, its probably NOT going to hurt me.

Great job on a great story. Well worth the wait, Franklins. But when’s the last time we heard Cindy smack Chris? That’s what I tune in for! Come on, guys!

Ooo, I have thoughts about Superman vs Wonder Woman. I always take issue with conflating “who’s stronger” with “who would win in a fight”. The strength test can be settled much easier with arm wrestling, tug of war, or sheer weight lifting. But the strongest will not always win in a fight. It happens in boxing all the time. If strongest always won, then Mike Tyson would never have lost a fight. (note: artistic embellishment, not statistical argument)

Supes has plenty of powers that help in a fight, but he lacks training real training. I think it’s safe to say Diana has powers approaching Supes level, but unlikely higher. However, her fighting skills are vastly greater. Thus why the outcome is so hard to predict, and makes for great stories! It ain’t a sport if you know who’s gonna win.

Although I will offer this last thought. Someone who fights by the rules will lose to someone who doesn’t. Superman is the big boy scout, and will always fight honorably. Diana is a warrior, and will fight to win. I’ll leave it at that.

So this is an ongoing thing now? Diana no longer a clay statue brought to life? Some god is her father? I remember that started with Cassie Wonder Girl, but not sure how I feel about that being in Diana’s story. It makes sense, but I dunno.