Holloway, Jackie

THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY ORAL HISTORY
PRESENTATION PROGRAM
OAK RIDGE, TENNESSEE
AN INTERVIEW WITH JACKIE HOLLOWAY
FOR THE
OAK RIDGE NATIONAL LABORATORY
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
INTERVIEWED BY
STEPHEN H. STOW
AND
MARILYN Z. MCLAUGHLIN (ASSISTANT)
OAK RIDGE, TENNESSEE
MARCH 2, 2005
TRANSCRIPT BY
BRIAN VARNER
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STOW: Today, we're talking with Jackie Holloway. Jackie came to the Laboratory at ORNL in 1963 and
retired after more than 30 years of service. She fulfilled a whole lot of different roles at the Laboratory,
starting out in the Biology Division. We'll be talking about the diverse activities that she undertook while
at ORNL. Jackie, what brought you to ORNL back in 1963?
HOLLOWAY: Well, I had just moved to Oak Ridge in the late '50s, and my husband was already
working in the Biology Division. And, Dr. R. C. Allen, who did bacteriology work there, interviewed me
and hired me to fill many shoes in his laboratory. We did many things in his bacteriology program.
Actually, one thing that really sticks out is that Dr. Allen designed the 9220 building that was built after I
came. It was designed pathogen free. If any [microbe] got into the lab animals, we would know right
where it came in. That was an exciting adventure.
STOW: Now, you were located at the Y-12 Plant as a member of the ORNL Biology Division.
HOLLOWAY: Right. Y-12. Yes.
STOW: What were your impressions of the Y-12 facility when you first saw it?
HOLLOWAY: Well, I really thought it would have been much different. You know, just on the outside
looking in. But, once I got there, I became accustomed to it, and most of our services were [in the Biology
Division] for the employees at Y-12. So, I got to know a lot of them. And, in my job I went all over Y-12
and to other places, because a lot of times I had to get supplies. So, I got to know the plant pretty well.
But, it was a lot different from what I had envisioned from the outside.
STOW: Where did you move from?
HOLLOWAY: Actually, I'm from Knoxville. I was born and raised in Knoxville, and my husband is from
Middle Tennessee. He had come to Oak Ridge as a young fellow-- about 15, I think he said -- because his
sisters had come here from Tullahoma, Tennessee, [to work] on some of the earlier projects. J. A. Jones
[was one of the contractors].
STOW: At K-25?
HOLLOWAY: Yes. And, they came in ... oh, '48 or '49.
STOW: After the war then.
HOLLOWAY: Yes. And, my husband was a young kid then when his mom and dad passed away. And,
his elderly sister brought him here and raised from the age of 15 here in Oak Ridge. And, I met him
through a mutual friend. And, after he got out of the service, we were married, and I came in the late '50s
to Oak Ridge.
STOW: Did you have any second thoughts about coming to Oak Ridge because of the history of Oak
Ridge and the radioactive materials that were present here?
HOLLOWAY: Well, not really. Because, back then, you know, [radioactivity was not discussed as much]
as it is now. And, I never really had any concerns about that. I worked at the hospital for a little while, and
I was hired into ORNL after the hospital stint. I do remember one incident when there was a criticality
accident at Y-12, and I was working at the hospital then. And, I remember some of the men that had been
in that criticality event. I met them because I was working at the hospital. And, five of them stayed at the
Oak Ridge Institute of Nuclear Studies hospital quite a little while.
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STOW: Was there any significant exposure to them?
HOLLOWAY: Oh, yes. Yes, I think it was.
STOW: Okay. You said you worked for Dr. Allen.
HOLLOWAY: Yes. Robert Allen was his name.
STOW: Was he your first supervisor?
HOLLOWAY: He was my first supervisor. Yes. I worked for him five or six years, and then he left and I
was then transferred over to Dr. MacNaughton, who [led a program on] aging research. And, I worked
with him and assisted people in his laboratory for a few years, and then he left.
STOW: Did you ever work with the Russells in the Biology Division?
HOLLOWAY: I did not work directly with them, but I did know them very, very well. I was in the 9211
building and the 9207 building, and they were in 9210. And, of course, everybody who has been through
there was very well acquainted with Bill and Liane.
STOW: Oh, yes.
HOLLOWAY: And, Liane today is one of my best friends. We live in the same district.
STOW: We did the same interview with her about a year-and-a-half ago.
HOLLOWAY: Oh, really?
STOW: Yes. And, it went very well. She's just a splendid person to talk to.
HOLLOWAY: Oh, she is. She really is.
STOW: Now, what did you actually do? What was your job when you started there?
HOLLOWAY: When I first started there, my job title was Laboratory Attendant. I assisted in the
laboratory by helping the investigators with their experiments and preparing all the instruments and
glassware for use in tissue-culture work. And, of course, the tissue-culture work can be done correctly
only if the glassware is prepared properly by a special technique. At that time, the supervisor was really
particular about who did what. And, I was -- I'm happy to say -- pretty much in demand for the special
kinds of things that had to be done.
STOW: How long did you continue to do that sort of work in biology?
HOLLOWAY: Well, I came in '63, and it was not until the '80s that I really started doing labor
management work. I had never been in a union. I don't know whether you know it or not, but the Biology
Division has not always been a part of the union.
STOW: No, I didn't know that.
HOLLOWAY: When I first came, what happened was that the organizing campaign went on shortly after
I got to the Biology Division. And, of course, there was enough support for the union, and the union came
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in at that time. So, early on, the Biology Division had a separate contract from what we call the Big
ATLC Contract. We drafted the Biology contract after the large contract was completed. The Biology
contract was kind of a "side contract."
STOW: Now, within the Biology Division where were the union people located? I don't mean physically,
but administratively. I know that in recent years, the mouse handlers have been unionized. Was that true
way back in those early days?
HOLLOWAY: Yes. And, I think, the union was brought in by the mouse handlers. They were the ones
that were dissatisfied, if you will, and they had the larger numbers. And, they voted the union in. Of
course, the laboratory attendants and lab aides, which I was for several years, each had a vote, also. And,
the way I understand it, it was a pretty close vote as to whether we would be unionized or not. But, the
union won out.
STOW: So, you were in the union also, weren't you?
HOLLOWAY: Yes.
STOW: I didn't realize that the union was that widespread in the Biology Division. I thought it was
limited strictly to the mouse handlers.
HOLLOWAY: No. We had a few people who worked directly in the laboratories, and they were
laboratory aides. That was their title. And, of course, a laboratory aide pretty much did anything that
needed to be done in the lab. And, like I say, I was always fortunate to help the investigators with their
experiments and gained an awful lot of knowledge through that.
STOW: Now, you got very much involved with union relationships. Tell us a little bit about how you
actually got involved with union activities.
HOLLOWAY: Okay. My coworkers and I actually were members of the Service Employees International
Union, which is one of the unions here. Of course, you know, there were 17 unions back then. The
Atomic Trades and Labor Council, or ATLC, comprised 17 international unions.
STOW: I didn't know it was that large of a number.
HOLLOWAY: Yes. And, I think there are probably 15 still. Some of them have merged. But, I got
involved, I guess, because of my coworkers. Until I retired, there had been only two chief stewards in the
Biology Division.
STOW: Okay.
HOLLOWAY: And, the man who was the chief steward when the union was first formed was no longer
viewed by the workers as truly representative of them. And so, they came to me and asked me if I would
consider having my name on the ballot as chief steward.
STOW: That was quite an honor, right?
HOLLOWAY: (laughs) Yes, it was at that time. And, so I told them, "Let me think about it." I had begun
to see the issues, and I thought I could make a difference. And, I had very much support and respect from
the investigators and everybody I had worked with. So, I decided to get on the ballot.
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STOW: And, this would have been what year now?
HOLLOWAY: That probably was 1966 or 1967.
STOW: Okay, so you really hadn't been here that long?
HOLLOWAY: I hadn't been there that long. No, but anyway, I was lucky, I guess (laughs). I won that
election as chief steward. And so, besides the gentleman who was chief steward when the union first
started and me, there had never been a chief steward but me until I left.
STOW: And, what were your primary responsibilities as chief steward?
HOLLOWAY: If there were problems of any nature, such as labor-management issues, then I would
represent the union members. We have a system in which grievances are filed. [For example, a machinist
might file a grievance against a researcher who builds or repairs a motor for an experiment.] The chief
steward carries that grievance until it gets to the step level whereby we called in the Atomic Trades and
Labor Council people, who would come in and help us. I would always go talk to the investigators about
any problem that an employee was having and see if we could get some kind of resolution between us
without going outside. And, many times we did. The Biology Division, I must say, was always referred to
as a "large family."
STOW: Okay. What were some of your biggest challenges in acting as chief steward? I mean, everything
couldn't have been easily solved.
HOLLOWAY: No. No, it wasn't. And I must say that often times my biggest challenge was working with
the employee. And, there were many times when you would have to say, "Well, that's legitimate what
they're doing, and you really don't have a grievance." Now, that was a big challenge. Because, often times
the union member didn't want to hear that. But, what I tried to do was be equipped with the reasons I'm
telling you this. And then, we had contract books and I was pretty good at interpreting the contract for
them. And, lots of times, they misunderstood what the contract really meant. So, that was my biggest
challenge -- to work with them and let them still respect me as somebody who was working on their
behalf and for their best interest.
STOW: Was there any resistance to having a black lady as the chief steward?
HOLLOWAY: You know, there really wasn't. Actually, I was surprised when they came to me and asked
me to do that. I haven't really had many problems with racial kinds of things. However, I know they exist,
but I've been able to work around those.
STOW: I want to come back to that issue here in just a few minutes. But, as you look back on your job as
chief steward, how long did that go on? You started in '67 or somewhere along in there.
HOLLOWAY: Well, I guess I was chief steward for probably 10 or 15 years, really. And, because I was
chief steward, I had a seat on the Atomic Trades and Labor Council board. That's how I got into the
business with the ATLC. The chief steward attends the meetings and discusses any problems in a
particular location. And, I got to know Bob Keil and Carl Johnson, who was out here for many years, and
I worked with them. I guess the really meaningful thing
STOW: Okay.
HOLLOWAY: And, Bob Keil came to me [to discuss it]. Of course, that was the longest strike in the
history of ORNL.
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STOW: I remember that strike.
HOLLOWAY: Yes. Bob Keil had come to me, and, of course, all I had done at that time was just the
Biology portion. He said, "You know, we've got to get this strike ended, and I don't know that I will be
available every time the news media, the print media, radio, or TV wants to talk about the strike…” The
1987 strike here was known nationwide. The Associated Press used to call me regularly. But, Bob asked
me if he could appoint me "media coordinator."
STOW: All right.
HOLLOWAY: I said, "Tell me what I have to do, Bob" (laughs). And, he told me he wanted me to be out
there, be out front, be able to answer questions, and talk to the media. And, he said, "And, for goodness
sakes, be somebody who won't embarrass us" (laughs). And, I said, "Well, if you think I can do that..."
So, I spoke with my husband about it, and he always kids me and laughed. He said, "Well, really I think
all you have to have is a big mouth, and you have that" (laughs). But, it turned out that that was the
starting point, and we were very successful in getting the people back to work. But, I think one of the key
things that happened back then is that Clyde Hopkins was sent back to Oak Ridge to be the president of
the company – Martin Marietta Energy Systems. And, he told us years later that they had told him, if that
strike was not settled, to be ready to go to Oak Ridge. Well, we settled it in about a week before he got
here, but they sent him anyway.
STOW: Well, thank God, they did.
HOLLOWAY: Yes. And, after that, it seems like the ATLC, ORNL, and the Y-12 Plant were on an
upward swing. We were more like partners then, rather than adversaries. And, Clyde had a whole lot to do
with that.
STOW: Oh, yes. He is a fine man and people have very good things to say about him.
HOLLOWAY: Yes. He's been just a godsend to us. There have been many times when there were
problems that could have been blown up into [serious matters], but we could go talk to Clyde about it, and
it would be okay.
STOW: Did you work closely with Clyde Hopkins.
HOLLOWAY: Yes, when I got to the ATLC. What happened is that after I served as the media
coordinator and the strike was settled, I returned to my job in the Biology Division. But even though the
ATLC was overwhelmingly white, several of the men came to me. They had gotten acquainted with me
during the strike and liked the way I had handled myself and tried to help out in the best way I could.
They said, "Why don't you run for office in the ATLC?"
STOW: Okay.
HOLLOWAY: And, I thought, "Oh, my goodness now (laughs). I don't think I can even win an office."
And they said, "I'll bet you can." And then, of course, Bob Keil encouraged me a lot. After the strike was
over, then I knew all the people in the ATLC. And, I didn't have any trouble. I ran for recording
secretary, which is the third officer down from the top. And, I was elected.
STOW: All right.
HOLLOWAY: And, I worked as recording secretary for the ATLC from 1987 until I retired in 1996.
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STOW: So, that's about 10 years in that capacity. What was the greatest challenge you were faced with as
recording secretary? It has to be very different from being a chief steward.
HOLLOWAY: Oh, yes it was. I guess the greatest challenge was to make sure that the records were kept
in the right manner. And, many times when we would have occasions to have arbitrations, I was the
person who had to be sure (on the union side) that we had all the notes. And, those arbitrations could last,
sometimes for days. So, I guess keeping all those records and accurately answering the questions that
came up were the greatest challenges.
STOW: You obviously have a talent for dealing with people, right?
HOLLOWAY: Well, I've been told that, and I would hope so. (laughs).
STOW: And, you're being told that again right now.
HOLLOWAY: (laughs) I would hope so.
STOW: What sort of educational background do you have that has given you the ability to deal
effectively with people -- to negotiate and so on? Or is it something that you've just acquired over the
years?
HOLLOWAY: I think, really, my educational background didn't have much to do with it. Because, like I
say, the work that I came to do was working in the laboratory. And, the union stuff and the negotiations
just came like second nature, you know. I didn't realize I had those talents until I tried the union work.
And, I really feel like being able to understand people and have them understand me and explain to them
why we did what we did -- it's just a talent -- a God-given talent.
STOW: Well, now you've worked with an awful lot of people during your 33 years at the Laboratory.
HOLLOWAY: Oh, yes.
STOW: Thinking back over those years, can you reflect on any one individual or couple of individuals
who really influenced your life and your career?
HOLLOWAY: Well, when it comes to my work in the laboratory itself, I'd have to say there was one --
Dr. Wen-Kuang Yang. He was from Taiwan.
STOW: Okay.
HOLLOWAY: [Dr. Yang had both Ph.D.] and M.D. degrees. And, one day he had a big project going
after he had gotten a grant. You know, they used to get grants hand over fist in the Biology Division, and
he did an awful lot in cancer research. And, he came into the facility where I was working one day and
said, "Jackie, can you come to my lab? I want to talk with you." And, I thought it was something he
wanted me to do special with his tissue culture or something. And, when I went in, he said, "If you would
like, I would really like for you to come work for me -- just my lab, because I believe that I can teach you
to do exactly what I want to do. You don't already have preconceived ideas about what we should do" and
all this. And, that really started me in the laboratory. He put a lot of responsibility on me, and he was also
willing to teach me what I was supposed to do. And, I think he was the most influential person on my
career as a biologist. I really did have the greatest respect for him. And you know, he just came to me one
day and said, "I think you're the person." And, I worked with him until he left. He left a year or so before
I retired.
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STOW: Weren’t you the Affirmative Action coordinator for the Biology Division? Or was it for a broader
area?
HOLLOWAY: For the ATLC.
STOW: For the ATLC in Oak Ridge.
HOLLOWAY: And, it really worked out -- that anybody that had a problem when they found out. We had
a big article in the ORNL News and my picture was in there [with the announcement that] I had been
chosen [for this position]. Well, you know, it was kind of unheard of for a union official to be working
with workforce diversity. I worked with Joyce Conner, and many times when there were problems, she
would call me in. But, it turned out that I was just an AA representative. I mean, it wasn't just for the
union, but that's how it was set up in the very beginning. They just thought that it was time that, when
people had problems, all bases were covered. And so, I was the one chosen for that. I think, really, when
that came about, the ATLC was probably contacted and said, "Well, you know, yes, we would agree that
we need somebody." And, I was chosen to be that person (laughs).
STOW: Well, you have to be pretty proud of what you've accomplished during your 33 years at the
Laboratory. You came here as a laboratory assistant or technician -- I guess we might call it today – and
as a minority woman, and you took on more responsibility in biology work and in the union and received
recognition. Please reflect a little bit about what your aspirations were when you came here in 1963 and
where you ended up in 1996. Could you have predicted that?
HOLLOWAY: No. I really couldn't have, and I really think that it just goes to show that if you're willing
to work hard, do your best at whatever you're doing, that most of the time it works out. You know, you
can advance. I know many times I've had younger people say, "Oh, they won't do that for me." I can
always point to something that had occurred in my life that might have [given me] that same attitude
years ago, but I don't [have it] now.
STOW: Well, did you consistently get support for advancing within the union or within the division. Did
you consistently get support from your supervisors and other administrators?
HOLLOWAY: From my supervisors, I got a lot of support. But, I can say, in the Biology Division -- as
administrations changed -- it got better. There was, I guess, the notion back then that certain people
should not be in certain positions. And, I will say that there were several times in the early years, where
the persons that I worked directly for, the investigators, had gone to the top administrators and asked for
me to be moved or promoted to this or that. But, it never came about it seemed like. I don't know if they
were purposively trying to hold me back, or whether they thought that maybe I couldn't do the job. So, I
think what happened with me -- when I went to work and started to work with the union -- I had the
mindset that, if I can't do it one way, I'll do it another.
STOW: Find another way.
HOLLOWAY: Yes.
STOW: Are you saying in a polite fashion that you felt there was discrimination against you by some
people in those early days?
HOLLOWAY: In the early days I did feel that. But I worked around it. And, those people and I
eventually became friends. I mean, there was never any hostility. But, I do feel that I could have played a
bigger part on the management side, had I been in other positions.
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STOW: Let's step beyond your position. I still want to talk to you a little bit about racial issues and the
attitude that management had toward minorities and advancement of minorities. But, let's look across the
Laboratory, because you obviously had to reflect beyond the Biology Division. Do you think there's been
a change in the way minorities have been treated here at ORNL over the 30-some odd years you were
here?
HOLLOWAY: Oh, definitely. But, then the world has changed in those years.
STOW: The world has changed.
HOLLOWAY: And, like I say, I don't know that anybody had a real purpose for doing that. I think it was
just the thing to do, and, they didn't even realize how it was affecting the other people.
STOW: Well, Oak Ridge has a long history of discrimination going back to 1943, and I guess a lot of that
from the early '60s was a carryover from those days.
HOLLWOAY: Oh, I think so. Yes, there's one thing that a lot of people don't really know, as I reflect
back on my family life as I was raising my children. I wanted my children out of the Scarboro School. We
had an integrated school system with a segregated school right in the midst of that for years. My kids
were the first to go outside of Scarboro to school. And, believe me, it wasn't just the Oak Ridge school
board or the school superintendent [who allowed the transfer]. I had to go all the way to the Justice
Department in Washington to transfer three little girls to another school outside the Scarboro area.
STOW: And, that would have been, what, in the late '50s?
HOLLOWAY: No, that was in the '60s, also. I had three little girls who went to Woodland School.
STOW: Yes.
HOLLOWAY: And, they just did marvelous. It never dawned on me when I asked that anybody here
would say no, because I had the 1964 Civil Rights Act behind me. And, not only that, Dr. Eugene Watson
from back then, the Department of Health, Education and Welfare had come to Oak Ridge and stayed a
whole year to see why integration didn't seem to be working among the school kids.
And, what was happening was that the whites and the blacks did not go to school together until the
seventh grade. Well, that's a little late, you know. I'm proud of three of my daughters because they've
done well. One daughter of mine left Oak Ridge High School after her junior year because she had won a
full scholarship to Harvard University. She went in 1972 and she was the first woman admitted to
Harvard from Oak Ridge in 20 years.
STOW: All those years went by, right?
HOLLOWAY: Right. And, that was a really joyous occasion for her family, of course, but even for the
community and the school. And, right now, when I tell new teachers what my name is, they say, "Oh, I've
heard about your daughter at the high school." They still talk about her at the high school.
STOW: What a great feeling. Obviously, you're proud.
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HOLLOWAY: Yes. Oftentimes I would wonder if I should have gone to the Justice Department. I don't
know what I would have done if my kids had not done well. But, they did so well and one of the reasons
was my kids needed to be out of the school in Scarboro. It wasn't anything on the teachers' part or
anything, but naturally, the teachers teach to the majority.
STOW: Sure.
HOLLOWAY: And Dr. Watson, who had been sent here, came to our home and told me that, if my
highly gifted daughter went to Scarboro School, "The only thing that she can do will be to help teach the
other kids. But, she doesn't need to be in that setting." And, so that's how I got started. I called the school
superintendent like he suggested, and we had meeting after meeting after meeting, and he told me that I
shouldn't want to put the burden of integration on my little kids’ shoulders.
STOW: But, persistence pays off.
HOLLOWAY: Yes. And, so they've done well. There have been many firsts, you know. My conviction --
that's what I go by. If I really believe in something, there's not much anybody else can do. I think it out. I
don't jump to conclusions and I don't jump -- no knee jerk reactions. I think things out and try to come up
with a reasonable solution.
STOW: I want to use that approach here in a moment and ask you a question about community services.
But, before we go there, I was looking at your resume and you've listed a "Skills Enhancement Program"
that you were involved with at ORNL.
HOLLOW AY: Okay. That came about, actually, in an attempt to help people.
STOW: Okay.
HOLLOWAY: We had many of our people in the union -- the laborers and the janitors were often
African-American. Years ago, when they came to ORNL or to Y-12 or K-25, because the program was
plant-wide, they were hired. They used to tell me that they would come in a truck or a bus to a plant,
where they were unloaded, and the driver would say, “There are the jobs." And, a lot of those people later
came up through the ranks. Well, as you know, the Department of Energy regulations got stiffer. There
were people who were very fearful of taking tests and of change. Change is what they were afraid of,
mainly. Once we got the Skills Enhancement Program, I don't think we had anybody who could not be
taught what to do. And, then they were able to do the paperwork. Clyde Hopkins played a big part in that
because he talked about the problem with Herman Postma and Alvin Weinberg, one of my very dear
friends, and other folks at the Laboratory. I talked with Bob Keil and the union guys and told them what
we were up against. Because, most of the time, people would call me and say they were afraid of losing
their jobs, because they just didn't think they could pass the tests or change after all the years, you know.
And, we went to Clyde and talked to him about it. And, of course, he called. And, Gordon Fee was a part
of it. He called the Laboratory and talked about what we were concerned about. And, they all got their
heads together, met with us, and we were allowed to get this program. The Skills Enhancement Program
is what we called it, because we didn't want it to sound derogatory. And, we even had some people who
had their diplomas, but they just lacked certain courses that we had in the program. And, Carolyn Cuddy
worked with it.
STOW: I know Carolyn.
HOLLOWAY: Yes, Carolyn worked with it. And, Theresa Riggs and I headed up that program.
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STOW: Theresa Riggs, I remember her, too.
HOLLOWAY: Yes. We headed that program up, and it did so well. We had a location at ORNL and a
location at Y-12. And, the people would be excused from their work hours at a certain time to go to their
class. At that time, we actually were involved with the plants in getting the contracts. We actually were
allowed to interview the contractors that we were thinking of. And, at that time we ended up hiring
Sylvan Learning Systems. They came in and were teaching these classes – for those people who were so
fearful that they were not going to hold onto their jobs.
STOW: Now, this is what year we’re talking about? You don't have to be exact, but just kind of put it in
perspective.
HOLLOWAY: I'd say, sometime around '89 or '90.
STOW: All right.
HOLLOWAY: And, they were here several years. And, the program was very successful. And, we were
very proud of our team that saw to the implementation of the program, working on it day by day. Our
team was honored at the Martin Marietta Energy Systems Awards Night.
STOW: Okay.
HOLLOWAY: Basically, we had quite a few union people on the team. Each local union in the ATLC
had a representative on the team. And, the team was quite large. And, then we had the same number of
management people also on the team. I have a picture of Mike Cuddy cutting the ribbon to the Skills
Enhancement Program at the building on 909 Scarboro Road.
STOW: I saw Mike just the other day, as a matter of fact.
HOLLOWAY: Did you? And, that was really a highlight for us, because we worked together, hand-inhand,
labor and management. Theresa was the management person and I was the union person, but you
couldn't tell the difference. We were co-chairs of the Skills Enhancement Program. And, we were invited
that night to the awards banquet, and it was just wonderful.
STOW: Whatever became of that program?
HOLLOWAY: I don't really know how its demise came about. Maybe there was no need for it after a
while. But, I was talking with Marcella Willis, who played a big part in that, and she told me that it was
no more. They didn't have the Skills Enhancement Program anymore. So, I don't really know. It was still
in effect when I left in '96.
STOW: I don't know what ever happened to it myself either. We certainly don't have anything like it
today that I'm aware of.
HOLLOWAY: Right.
STOW: Let's talk a little bit about some of your community interactions and your community
involvement and so on. As I look over your background, I'm struck by the public service activities and
community outreach activities that you've undertaken. What got you so involved with the community, and
has much of this happened since you retired from ORNL?
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HOLLOWAY: Not really. I've done quite a bit while I was still working, but, of course, now that I'm not
working, I have more time. But, I've just always been active -- if I can help somebody -- I think that's
what it is. When people call, you know, I can be there. My husband kids me now, saying, "You can come
in and you're so tired, but if somebody calls and they need some help, you’re ready to go."
STOW: You don't know how to say "no," do you?
HOLLOWAY: (laughs) Right. But, I've just always been involved in the community. When my children
were young and at home, of course, it all mostly centered around them. But, once they got up and grown,
I've just been the kind of person that wants to help all I can. So, many times I think I get called because
they know I won't say no, you know. But, I try to think that out, too. And, I do have a genuine interest in
all the things that I do. I have some personal interest in it also.
STOW: I look here on your resume and I see Tennessee Judicial Council.
HOLLOWAY: And, you know, that's an honor. I was just appointed to that last year.
STOW: Oh, is that right?
HOLLOWAY: By the governor. My term runs until 2007.
STOW: Yes.
HOLLOWAY: And, at the time, I got a call and they said, "You've been nominated for a position on the
Judicial Council. Would you accept the nomination?" And, there again, I asked, "What do I have to do?”
And, they told me. And, really, I work with the Judicial Council on all judicial matters across the State of
Tennessee. In fact, I have a meeting tomorrow in Nashville, and they've already sent me the book of
legislation that the State Legislature has referred to the Judicial Council to come up with a resolution for
them. And so, we'll meet tomorrow and discuss different pieces of legislation and make
recommendations. I’ll tell you what. After the lady called from the Governor's office to tell me I had been
nominated to the Judicial Council, I said, "Well, my goodness, I can't think of anybody who would
nominate me." And, believe it or not, do you know Don Trauger?
STOW: I know Don very well.
14
HOLLOWAY: Okay. Don Trauger's son, Byron...
STOW: Yes. He's a lawyer in Nashville.
HOLLOWAY: Yes. He's in Nashville, and he's very close to the governor. When Byron was a young man
in Oak Ridge, I always admired him so, because he is so intelligent. And, we were just friends. Then they
told me that Byron Trauger had nominated me for a position on the Judicial Council.
STOW: My goodness.
HOLLOWAY: Associates of the Governor nominate people for different positions. They give several
names to the Governor for [each open position on a council or other group].
STOW: Sure.
HOLLOWAY: And, then ultimately the Governor chooses people from their resumes and other things.
13
STOW: Now, one would think, from what you say about that position or that council, that you would
need legal training and background.
HOLLOWAY: Well, I'll tell you what happens there. And, I wasn't aware of all this. Actually, I didn't
even know there was a Judicial Council until all of this happened.
STOW: No, I didn't know it either.
HOLLOWAY: The sitting Governor now is very concerned about everybody being a part of things, if it's
going to affect them. Okay?
STOW: Okay.
HOLLOWAY: The Judicial Council, up until this time, had been made up of lawyers, judges, and other
people in the legal field. Well, okay. Governor Bredesen has appointed two lay people to the council,
also. I'm one of the lay people and [the other person is] a gentleman from Memphis.
STOW: Well, good.
HOLLOWAY: It's really interesting work.
STOW: I can imagine it would be.
HOLLOWAY: We have looked at the court costs across the State of Tennessee. I had no idea there was
such a mess, in terms of what the court costs really are. A person who commits some misdemeanor pays a
certain amount in court costs in one county. Someone who does the same thing in another county may
have to pay twice as much in court costs. Nobody in any one county knew what the other counties were
doing. And so, we met with the clerks of all the county courts for six months. Then we made
recommendations to the Governor and to the State Legislature [the Tennessee General Assembly]. And,
there’s a bill in there now on how to [make court costs uniform in all 95 counties], rather than have them
be all over the map. And, those are the kinds of things that are referred to us.
STOW: So, this is no small matter. It takes a lot of your time, doesn't it?
HOLLOWAY: Yes, it does.
STOW: I read here that you've been on The Governor's Families First Task Force, Anderson County
Commission, The National Association of County Officials, the East Tennessee Women's Political
Caucus and on and on. Of all of these different activities, community service, public service and so on,
what are you most proud of?
HOLLOWAY: I guess I’m most proud of my work here at ORNL. And, this comes back to public service
but also can be related to our work. It's the time that ORNL and the ATLC were selected from across the
State of Tennessee as the Labor-Management Group of the Year. We had to do lots of research. We had
to send in what we did together, such as our accomplishments and our work as partners. Throughout the
State of Tennessee, we were selected as the Labor-Management Group of the Year. I think I'm proud of
that in two respects. It was hard work getting to that point, and we did lots of community things together.
We used to have labor-management conferences. Labor-management groups would meet from place to
place, and we would discuss mutual things. We even had a Tripartite Health and Safety Committee, [with
representatives from] the Department of Energy, the contractor, and the union. And, once every two or
three months, we met at the Department of Energy and talked about mutual problems that could affect all
14
of us and worked out solutions to problems we saw coming down the road. And, I guess I really liked
those kinds of things. And, so the community service just comes really easy for me.
STOW: And, it's very rewarding to you, is it not?
HOLLOWAY: It is. It really is.
STOW: When I look at your community services and your background, the obvious question arises. Have
you ever considered running for public office?
HOLLOWAY: Well, the only thing that I've run for is the Anderson County Commission. There again, I
hadn't even thought of it. People in the community asked me if I would consider running for County
Commission -- that's a county office, or the legislative branch of the county government. And, I thought
about it. At first I thought, "I don't know if I want to do that or not." But, I thought more and more about
it and, there again, I felt that I could make a difference through outreach to people. And, I gave it a shot,
and I won the first time out (laughs).
STOW: Have you ever given any thought in running for a state position -- state representative or senator?
HOLLOWAY: I have. And, people call all the time asking me about that. And, of course, Jim Hackworth
is our representative now; he’s an employee at the Lab. And, I worked very hard in his campaign, and we
were successful. And, sometimes I think about it. But, I haven't really ruled it out (laughs).
STOW: Good. If you could look back over your entire career, not only your ORNL career, but your
public service career, and do anything over differently, what would that be? Or, are you pretty well
satisfied with the way things have gone over the years?
HOLLOWAY: You know, I am pleased and I think I'm a real success story, so to speak. Because of
where I came from and what I have accomplished, I'm very pleased with my life. But, I think if there was
anything that I would do over again, I think I would have gone to school, probably at a younger age, and
gotten more education, a formal education, that is. I've been very lucky though, having been an employee
here at ORNL, and I have been able to take courses. One time, I think the union people who took courses
did not get reimbursed. Well, we stopped that, too.
STOW: That's right.
HOLLOWAY: (laughs) And, I guess I might have been one of the first that decided I wanted to take a
course, so I went to labor relations and asked if I could. At first, they said, "Well, we don't think so, but
then let us check on it." And, they checked into it. And, Gordon Fee, Clyde Hopkins, and Herman Postma
all said, "Well, sure, if they want to do that." And so, I was in a position where I could further my
education. But at an earlier age, I think, if I had anything to do over, I would have continued in school.
STOW: I asked you this question earlier. Let's try it again. What individual out there has had the greatest
influence on you as a person and on your career?
HOLLOWAY: Well, I think I have to go back to my grandmother.
STOW: Okay.
HOLLOWAY: My grandmother actually was my mother. My mother and father were divorced when I
was a small child. We went to live with her mother, my mother and me. And, I've been brought up to
15
believe that if I strive hard enough, I can be anything that I want to be. And, the desire has to be there. So,
I would say that had been bred in me from [the time I was] a very small child. And then, anytime I've
done anything, you know -- not for show or whatever -- it has always been rewarding. So, I tell you a
person in the county government who I think has had a real influence on me, as far as community service
and [political matters go] -- is Judge Buddy Scott [formerly of Anderson County Criminal Court].
STOW: Okay.
HOLLOWAY: When there have been [opportunities] that I had no idea I would even be tapped for, he
has always been so complimentary and willing to help [me when] he can. When I ask him a question, he
takes the time to answer it. , I just think he's had an awful lot of influence on me. When I got appointed to
the Judicial Council, I called him immediately and told him about it. And, he went to his law books and
copied all of the stuff that the Judicial Council has the power to do and brought it to me. You know, he
was just so proud that I had been tapped for that position. So, people in the community have really played
a big part in my success and in whatever I've tried to do.
STOW: Sometime down the road, maybe 50 years from now, they're going to be looking back on the
history of Oak Ridge National Laboratory and your name may crop up. You never know.
HOLLOWAY: (laughs)
STOW: What do you want your legacy to be? What would you want someone to remember about you
down the road after we're all long gone from the face of the earth?
HOLLOWAY: Well, I just want people to remember me as a person who worked hard, cared about other
people, and did everything in her power to make sure that people were treated equally. I’d like to be
thought of as a person that helped other people along the way.
STOW: Now, you've got five children.
HOLLOWAY: Yes.
STOW: Do they take after you with regard to the desire to help others with the same persistence and
drive?
HOLLOWAY: Pretty much. I'll tell you -- they help each other quite a bit, especially my daughters. I
have one daughter whose young son was born deaf. And, so he's had, of course, a lot of attention. And, he
wasn't doing or adjusting very well. She made a career move, and he wasn't adjusting very well in the
California school system. And, it was because he just was not in the setting that was comfortable for him.
My oldest daughter lives in Ohio, and they have a school there, St. Regis, that's supposed to be top notch
for teaching children who are deaf or have other handicaps. And, my oldest daughter has my third
daughter's son at her house now, so he can attend St. Regis school.
STOW: It sounds like they've come by those traits honestly.
HOLLOWAY: Right. Yes (laughs).
STOW: Is there anything that we haven't touched on here that you'd like to mention? We've touched on
ORNL history, Scarboro issues, racial issues, community service ...
HOLLOWAY: Well, not really in that context, I guess, Steve. But, I would like to say that, honestly, I am
proud to say that I have passed through this way -- ORNL -- and I thank everyone for all the help that
16
they've given me along the way and [for] the inspiration that they've given to me. ORNL is a beautiful
place, and I mean that from the depths of my heart. And, I don't know of anyone with ORNL that I've
come in contact with who has not been willing to help me. And, had it not been for ORNL and the
Atomic Trades and Labor Council, I don't think I would have been as far along as I am.
STOW: Well, I think it's safe to say that ORNL and the Labor Council wouldn't be as far along, if it were
not for you.
HOLLOWAY: Well, I appreciate that (laughs).
STOW: So, thank you very much.
HOLLOWAY: Thank you.
STOW: And, I'll take the liberty of speaking for the entire community and say thank you for everything.
HOLLOWAY: Okay. Well, thank you so much and, like I say, ORNL is the best.
------------------------------------------END OF INTERVIEW-------------------------------------------------------

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THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY ORAL HISTORY
PRESENTATION PROGRAM
OAK RIDGE, TENNESSEE
AN INTERVIEW WITH JACKIE HOLLOWAY
FOR THE
OAK RIDGE NATIONAL LABORATORY
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
INTERVIEWED BY
STEPHEN H. STOW
AND
MARILYN Z. MCLAUGHLIN (ASSISTANT)
OAK RIDGE, TENNESSEE
MARCH 2, 2005
TRANSCRIPT BY
BRIAN VARNER
2
STOW: Today, we're talking with Jackie Holloway. Jackie came to the Laboratory at ORNL in 1963 and
retired after more than 30 years of service. She fulfilled a whole lot of different roles at the Laboratory,
starting out in the Biology Division. We'll be talking about the diverse activities that she undertook while
at ORNL. Jackie, what brought you to ORNL back in 1963?
HOLLOWAY: Well, I had just moved to Oak Ridge in the late '50s, and my husband was already
working in the Biology Division. And, Dr. R. C. Allen, who did bacteriology work there, interviewed me
and hired me to fill many shoes in his laboratory. We did many things in his bacteriology program.
Actually, one thing that really sticks out is that Dr. Allen designed the 9220 building that was built after I
came. It was designed pathogen free. If any [microbe] got into the lab animals, we would know right
where it came in. That was an exciting adventure.
STOW: Now, you were located at the Y-12 Plant as a member of the ORNL Biology Division.
HOLLOWAY: Right. Y-12. Yes.
STOW: What were your impressions of the Y-12 facility when you first saw it?
HOLLOWAY: Well, I really thought it would have been much different. You know, just on the outside
looking in. But, once I got there, I became accustomed to it, and most of our services were [in the Biology
Division] for the employees at Y-12. So, I got to know a lot of them. And, in my job I went all over Y-12
and to other places, because a lot of times I had to get supplies. So, I got to know the plant pretty well.
But, it was a lot different from what I had envisioned from the outside.
STOW: Where did you move from?
HOLLOWAY: Actually, I'm from Knoxville. I was born and raised in Knoxville, and my husband is from
Middle Tennessee. He had come to Oak Ridge as a young fellow-- about 15, I think he said -- because his
sisters had come here from Tullahoma, Tennessee, [to work] on some of the earlier projects. J. A. Jones
[was one of the contractors].
STOW: At K-25?
HOLLOWAY: Yes. And, they came in ... oh, '48 or '49.
STOW: After the war then.
HOLLOWAY: Yes. And, my husband was a young kid then when his mom and dad passed away. And,
his elderly sister brought him here and raised from the age of 15 here in Oak Ridge. And, I met him
through a mutual friend. And, after he got out of the service, we were married, and I came in the late '50s
to Oak Ridge.
STOW: Did you have any second thoughts about coming to Oak Ridge because of the history of Oak
Ridge and the radioactive materials that were present here?
HOLLOWAY: Well, not really. Because, back then, you know, [radioactivity was not discussed as much]
as it is now. And, I never really had any concerns about that. I worked at the hospital for a little while, and
I was hired into ORNL after the hospital stint. I do remember one incident when there was a criticality
accident at Y-12, and I was working at the hospital then. And, I remember some of the men that had been
in that criticality event. I met them because I was working at the hospital. And, five of them stayed at the
Oak Ridge Institute of Nuclear Studies hospital quite a little while.
3
STOW: Was there any significant exposure to them?
HOLLOWAY: Oh, yes. Yes, I think it was.
STOW: Okay. You said you worked for Dr. Allen.
HOLLOWAY: Yes. Robert Allen was his name.
STOW: Was he your first supervisor?
HOLLOWAY: He was my first supervisor. Yes. I worked for him five or six years, and then he left and I
was then transferred over to Dr. MacNaughton, who [led a program on] aging research. And, I worked
with him and assisted people in his laboratory for a few years, and then he left.
STOW: Did you ever work with the Russells in the Biology Division?
HOLLOWAY: I did not work directly with them, but I did know them very, very well. I was in the 9211
building and the 9207 building, and they were in 9210. And, of course, everybody who has been through
there was very well acquainted with Bill and Liane.
STOW: Oh, yes.
HOLLOWAY: And, Liane today is one of my best friends. We live in the same district.
STOW: We did the same interview with her about a year-and-a-half ago.
HOLLOWAY: Oh, really?
STOW: Yes. And, it went very well. She's just a splendid person to talk to.
HOLLOWAY: Oh, she is. She really is.
STOW: Now, what did you actually do? What was your job when you started there?
HOLLOWAY: When I first started there, my job title was Laboratory Attendant. I assisted in the
laboratory by helping the investigators with their experiments and preparing all the instruments and
glassware for use in tissue-culture work. And, of course, the tissue-culture work can be done correctly
only if the glassware is prepared properly by a special technique. At that time, the supervisor was really
particular about who did what. And, I was -- I'm happy to say -- pretty much in demand for the special
kinds of things that had to be done.
STOW: How long did you continue to do that sort of work in biology?
HOLLOWAY: Well, I came in '63, and it was not until the '80s that I really started doing labor
management work. I had never been in a union. I don't know whether you know it or not, but the Biology
Division has not always been a part of the union.
STOW: No, I didn't know that.
HOLLOWAY: When I first came, what happened was that the organizing campaign went on shortly after
I got to the Biology Division. And, of course, there was enough support for the union, and the union came
4
in at that time. So, early on, the Biology Division had a separate contract from what we call the Big
ATLC Contract. We drafted the Biology contract after the large contract was completed. The Biology
contract was kind of a "side contract."
STOW: Now, within the Biology Division where were the union people located? I don't mean physically,
but administratively. I know that in recent years, the mouse handlers have been unionized. Was that true
way back in those early days?
HOLLOWAY: Yes. And, I think, the union was brought in by the mouse handlers. They were the ones
that were dissatisfied, if you will, and they had the larger numbers. And, they voted the union in. Of
course, the laboratory attendants and lab aides, which I was for several years, each had a vote, also. And,
the way I understand it, it was a pretty close vote as to whether we would be unionized or not. But, the
union won out.
STOW: So, you were in the union also, weren't you?
HOLLOWAY: Yes.
STOW: I didn't realize that the union was that widespread in the Biology Division. I thought it was
limited strictly to the mouse handlers.
HOLLOWAY: No. We had a few people who worked directly in the laboratories, and they were
laboratory aides. That was their title. And, of course, a laboratory aide pretty much did anything that
needed to be done in the lab. And, like I say, I was always fortunate to help the investigators with their
experiments and gained an awful lot of knowledge through that.
STOW: Now, you got very much involved with union relationships. Tell us a little bit about how you
actually got involved with union activities.
HOLLOWAY: Okay. My coworkers and I actually were members of the Service Employees International
Union, which is one of the unions here. Of course, you know, there were 17 unions back then. The
Atomic Trades and Labor Council, or ATLC, comprised 17 international unions.
STOW: I didn't know it was that large of a number.
HOLLOWAY: Yes. And, I think there are probably 15 still. Some of them have merged. But, I got
involved, I guess, because of my coworkers. Until I retired, there had been only two chief stewards in the
Biology Division.
STOW: Okay.
HOLLOWAY: And, the man who was the chief steward when the union was first formed was no longer
viewed by the workers as truly representative of them. And so, they came to me and asked me if I would
consider having my name on the ballot as chief steward.
STOW: That was quite an honor, right?
HOLLOWAY: (laughs) Yes, it was at that time. And, so I told them, "Let me think about it." I had begun
to see the issues, and I thought I could make a difference. And, I had very much support and respect from
the investigators and everybody I had worked with. So, I decided to get on the ballot.
5
STOW: And, this would have been what year now?
HOLLOWAY: That probably was 1966 or 1967.
STOW: Okay, so you really hadn't been here that long?
HOLLOWAY: I hadn't been there that long. No, but anyway, I was lucky, I guess (laughs). I won that
election as chief steward. And so, besides the gentleman who was chief steward when the union first
started and me, there had never been a chief steward but me until I left.
STOW: And, what were your primary responsibilities as chief steward?
HOLLOWAY: If there were problems of any nature, such as labor-management issues, then I would
represent the union members. We have a system in which grievances are filed. [For example, a machinist
might file a grievance against a researcher who builds or repairs a motor for an experiment.] The chief
steward carries that grievance until it gets to the step level whereby we called in the Atomic Trades and
Labor Council people, who would come in and help us. I would always go talk to the investigators about
any problem that an employee was having and see if we could get some kind of resolution between us
without going outside. And, many times we did. The Biology Division, I must say, was always referred to
as a "large family."
STOW: Okay. What were some of your biggest challenges in acting as chief steward? I mean, everything
couldn't have been easily solved.
HOLLOWAY: No. No, it wasn't. And I must say that often times my biggest challenge was working with
the employee. And, there were many times when you would have to say, "Well, that's legitimate what
they're doing, and you really don't have a grievance." Now, that was a big challenge. Because, often times
the union member didn't want to hear that. But, what I tried to do was be equipped with the reasons I'm
telling you this. And then, we had contract books and I was pretty good at interpreting the contract for
them. And, lots of times, they misunderstood what the contract really meant. So, that was my biggest
challenge -- to work with them and let them still respect me as somebody who was working on their
behalf and for their best interest.
STOW: Was there any resistance to having a black lady as the chief steward?
HOLLOWAY: You know, there really wasn't. Actually, I was surprised when they came to me and asked
me to do that. I haven't really had many problems with racial kinds of things. However, I know they exist,
but I've been able to work around those.
STOW: I want to come back to that issue here in just a few minutes. But, as you look back on your job as
chief steward, how long did that go on? You started in '67 or somewhere along in there.
HOLLOWAY: Well, I guess I was chief steward for probably 10 or 15 years, really. And, because I was
chief steward, I had a seat on the Atomic Trades and Labor Council board. That's how I got into the
business with the ATLC. The chief steward attends the meetings and discusses any problems in a
particular location. And, I got to know Bob Keil and Carl Johnson, who was out here for many years, and
I worked with them. I guess the really meaningful thing
STOW: Okay.
HOLLOWAY: And, Bob Keil came to me [to discuss it]. Of course, that was the longest strike in the
history of ORNL.
6
STOW: I remember that strike.
HOLLOWAY: Yes. Bob Keil had come to me, and, of course, all I had done at that time was just the
Biology portion. He said, "You know, we've got to get this strike ended, and I don't know that I will be
available every time the news media, the print media, radio, or TV wants to talk about the strike…” The
1987 strike here was known nationwide. The Associated Press used to call me regularly. But, Bob asked
me if he could appoint me "media coordinator."
STOW: All right.
HOLLOWAY: I said, "Tell me what I have to do, Bob" (laughs). And, he told me he wanted me to be out
there, be out front, be able to answer questions, and talk to the media. And, he said, "And, for goodness
sakes, be somebody who won't embarrass us" (laughs). And, I said, "Well, if you think I can do that..."
So, I spoke with my husband about it, and he always kids me and laughed. He said, "Well, really I think
all you have to have is a big mouth, and you have that" (laughs). But, it turned out that that was the
starting point, and we were very successful in getting the people back to work. But, I think one of the key
things that happened back then is that Clyde Hopkins was sent back to Oak Ridge to be the president of
the company – Martin Marietta Energy Systems. And, he told us years later that they had told him, if that
strike was not settled, to be ready to go to Oak Ridge. Well, we settled it in about a week before he got
here, but they sent him anyway.
STOW: Well, thank God, they did.
HOLLOWAY: Yes. And, after that, it seems like the ATLC, ORNL, and the Y-12 Plant were on an
upward swing. We were more like partners then, rather than adversaries. And, Clyde had a whole lot to do
with that.
STOW: Oh, yes. He is a fine man and people have very good things to say about him.
HOLLOWAY: Yes. He's been just a godsend to us. There have been many times when there were
problems that could have been blown up into [serious matters], but we could go talk to Clyde about it, and
it would be okay.
STOW: Did you work closely with Clyde Hopkins.
HOLLOWAY: Yes, when I got to the ATLC. What happened is that after I served as the media
coordinator and the strike was settled, I returned to my job in the Biology Division. But even though the
ATLC was overwhelmingly white, several of the men came to me. They had gotten acquainted with me
during the strike and liked the way I had handled myself and tried to help out in the best way I could.
They said, "Why don't you run for office in the ATLC?"
STOW: Okay.
HOLLOWAY: And, I thought, "Oh, my goodness now (laughs). I don't think I can even win an office."
And they said, "I'll bet you can." And then, of course, Bob Keil encouraged me a lot. After the strike was
over, then I knew all the people in the ATLC. And, I didn't have any trouble. I ran for recording
secretary, which is the third officer down from the top. And, I was elected.
STOW: All right.
HOLLOWAY: And, I worked as recording secretary for the ATLC from 1987 until I retired in 1996.
7
STOW: So, that's about 10 years in that capacity. What was the greatest challenge you were faced with as
recording secretary? It has to be very different from being a chief steward.
HOLLOWAY: Oh, yes it was. I guess the greatest challenge was to make sure that the records were kept
in the right manner. And, many times when we would have occasions to have arbitrations, I was the
person who had to be sure (on the union side) that we had all the notes. And, those arbitrations could last,
sometimes for days. So, I guess keeping all those records and accurately answering the questions that
came up were the greatest challenges.
STOW: You obviously have a talent for dealing with people, right?
HOLLOWAY: Well, I've been told that, and I would hope so. (laughs).
STOW: And, you're being told that again right now.
HOLLOWAY: (laughs) I would hope so.
STOW: What sort of educational background do you have that has given you the ability to deal
effectively with people -- to negotiate and so on? Or is it something that you've just acquired over the
years?
HOLLOWAY: I think, really, my educational background didn't have much to do with it. Because, like I
say, the work that I came to do was working in the laboratory. And, the union stuff and the negotiations
just came like second nature, you know. I didn't realize I had those talents until I tried the union work.
And, I really feel like being able to understand people and have them understand me and explain to them
why we did what we did -- it's just a talent -- a God-given talent.
STOW: Well, now you've worked with an awful lot of people during your 33 years at the Laboratory.
HOLLOWAY: Oh, yes.
STOW: Thinking back over those years, can you reflect on any one individual or couple of individuals
who really influenced your life and your career?
HOLLOWAY: Well, when it comes to my work in the laboratory itself, I'd have to say there was one --
Dr. Wen-Kuang Yang. He was from Taiwan.
STOW: Okay.
HOLLOWAY: [Dr. Yang had both Ph.D.] and M.D. degrees. And, one day he had a big project going
after he had gotten a grant. You know, they used to get grants hand over fist in the Biology Division, and
he did an awful lot in cancer research. And, he came into the facility where I was working one day and
said, "Jackie, can you come to my lab? I want to talk with you." And, I thought it was something he
wanted me to do special with his tissue culture or something. And, when I went in, he said, "If you would
like, I would really like for you to come work for me -- just my lab, because I believe that I can teach you
to do exactly what I want to do. You don't already have preconceived ideas about what we should do" and
all this. And, that really started me in the laboratory. He put a lot of responsibility on me, and he was also
willing to teach me what I was supposed to do. And, I think he was the most influential person on my
career as a biologist. I really did have the greatest respect for him. And you know, he just came to me one
day and said, "I think you're the person." And, I worked with him until he left. He left a year or so before
I retired.
8
STOW: Weren’t you the Affirmative Action coordinator for the Biology Division? Or was it for a broader
area?
HOLLOWAY: For the ATLC.
STOW: For the ATLC in Oak Ridge.
HOLLOWAY: And, it really worked out -- that anybody that had a problem when they found out. We had
a big article in the ORNL News and my picture was in there [with the announcement that] I had been
chosen [for this position]. Well, you know, it was kind of unheard of for a union official to be working
with workforce diversity. I worked with Joyce Conner, and many times when there were problems, she
would call me in. But, it turned out that I was just an AA representative. I mean, it wasn't just for the
union, but that's how it was set up in the very beginning. They just thought that it was time that, when
people had problems, all bases were covered. And so, I was the one chosen for that. I think, really, when
that came about, the ATLC was probably contacted and said, "Well, you know, yes, we would agree that
we need somebody." And, I was chosen to be that person (laughs).
STOW: Well, you have to be pretty proud of what you've accomplished during your 33 years at the
Laboratory. You came here as a laboratory assistant or technician -- I guess we might call it today – and
as a minority woman, and you took on more responsibility in biology work and in the union and received
recognition. Please reflect a little bit about what your aspirations were when you came here in 1963 and
where you ended up in 1996. Could you have predicted that?
HOLLOWAY: No. I really couldn't have, and I really think that it just goes to show that if you're willing
to work hard, do your best at whatever you're doing, that most of the time it works out. You know, you
can advance. I know many times I've had younger people say, "Oh, they won't do that for me." I can
always point to something that had occurred in my life that might have [given me] that same attitude
years ago, but I don't [have it] now.
STOW: Well, did you consistently get support for advancing within the union or within the division. Did
you consistently get support from your supervisors and other administrators?
HOLLOWAY: From my supervisors, I got a lot of support. But, I can say, in the Biology Division -- as
administrations changed -- it got better. There was, I guess, the notion back then that certain people
should not be in certain positions. And, I will say that there were several times in the early years, where
the persons that I worked directly for, the investigators, had gone to the top administrators and asked for
me to be moved or promoted to this or that. But, it never came about it seemed like. I don't know if they
were purposively trying to hold me back, or whether they thought that maybe I couldn't do the job. So, I
think what happened with me -- when I went to work and started to work with the union -- I had the
mindset that, if I can't do it one way, I'll do it another.
STOW: Find another way.
HOLLOWAY: Yes.
STOW: Are you saying in a polite fashion that you felt there was discrimination against you by some
people in those early days?
HOLLOWAY: In the early days I did feel that. But I worked around it. And, those people and I
eventually became friends. I mean, there was never any hostility. But, I do feel that I could have played a
bigger part on the management side, had I been in other positions.
9
STOW: Let's step beyond your position. I still want to talk to you a little bit about racial issues and the
attitude that management had toward minorities and advancement of minorities. But, let's look across the
Laboratory, because you obviously had to reflect beyond the Biology Division. Do you think there's been
a change in the way minorities have been treated here at ORNL over the 30-some odd years you were
here?
HOLLOWAY: Oh, definitely. But, then the world has changed in those years.
STOW: The world has changed.
HOLLOWAY: And, like I say, I don't know that anybody had a real purpose for doing that. I think it was
just the thing to do, and, they didn't even realize how it was affecting the other people.
STOW: Well, Oak Ridge has a long history of discrimination going back to 1943, and I guess a lot of that
from the early '60s was a carryover from those days.
HOLLWOAY: Oh, I think so. Yes, there's one thing that a lot of people don't really know, as I reflect
back on my family life as I was raising my children. I wanted my children out of the Scarboro School. We
had an integrated school system with a segregated school right in the midst of that for years. My kids
were the first to go outside of Scarboro to school. And, believe me, it wasn't just the Oak Ridge school
board or the school superintendent [who allowed the transfer]. I had to go all the way to the Justice
Department in Washington to transfer three little girls to another school outside the Scarboro area.
STOW: And, that would have been, what, in the late '50s?
HOLLOWAY: No, that was in the '60s, also. I had three little girls who went to Woodland School.
STOW: Yes.
HOLLOWAY: And, they just did marvelous. It never dawned on me when I asked that anybody here
would say no, because I had the 1964 Civil Rights Act behind me. And, not only that, Dr. Eugene Watson
from back then, the Department of Health, Education and Welfare had come to Oak Ridge and stayed a
whole year to see why integration didn't seem to be working among the school kids.
And, what was happening was that the whites and the blacks did not go to school together until the
seventh grade. Well, that's a little late, you know. I'm proud of three of my daughters because they've
done well. One daughter of mine left Oak Ridge High School after her junior year because she had won a
full scholarship to Harvard University. She went in 1972 and she was the first woman admitted to
Harvard from Oak Ridge in 20 years.
STOW: All those years went by, right?
HOLLOWAY: Right. And, that was a really joyous occasion for her family, of course, but even for the
community and the school. And, right now, when I tell new teachers what my name is, they say, "Oh, I've
heard about your daughter at the high school." They still talk about her at the high school.
STOW: What a great feeling. Obviously, you're proud.
10
HOLLOWAY: Yes. Oftentimes I would wonder if I should have gone to the Justice Department. I don't
know what I would have done if my kids had not done well. But, they did so well and one of the reasons
was my kids needed to be out of the school in Scarboro. It wasn't anything on the teachers' part or
anything, but naturally, the teachers teach to the majority.
STOW: Sure.
HOLLOWAY: And Dr. Watson, who had been sent here, came to our home and told me that, if my
highly gifted daughter went to Scarboro School, "The only thing that she can do will be to help teach the
other kids. But, she doesn't need to be in that setting." And, so that's how I got started. I called the school
superintendent like he suggested, and we had meeting after meeting after meeting, and he told me that I
shouldn't want to put the burden of integration on my little kids’ shoulders.
STOW: But, persistence pays off.
HOLLOWAY: Yes. And, so they've done well. There have been many firsts, you know. My conviction --
that's what I go by. If I really believe in something, there's not much anybody else can do. I think it out. I
don't jump to conclusions and I don't jump -- no knee jerk reactions. I think things out and try to come up
with a reasonable solution.
STOW: I want to use that approach here in a moment and ask you a question about community services.
But, before we go there, I was looking at your resume and you've listed a "Skills Enhancement Program"
that you were involved with at ORNL.
HOLLOW AY: Okay. That came about, actually, in an attempt to help people.
STOW: Okay.
HOLLOWAY: We had many of our people in the union -- the laborers and the janitors were often
African-American. Years ago, when they came to ORNL or to Y-12 or K-25, because the program was
plant-wide, they were hired. They used to tell me that they would come in a truck or a bus to a plant,
where they were unloaded, and the driver would say, “There are the jobs." And, a lot of those people later
came up through the ranks. Well, as you know, the Department of Energy regulations got stiffer. There
were people who were very fearful of taking tests and of change. Change is what they were afraid of,
mainly. Once we got the Skills Enhancement Program, I don't think we had anybody who could not be
taught what to do. And, then they were able to do the paperwork. Clyde Hopkins played a big part in that
because he talked about the problem with Herman Postma and Alvin Weinberg, one of my very dear
friends, and other folks at the Laboratory. I talked with Bob Keil and the union guys and told them what
we were up against. Because, most of the time, people would call me and say they were afraid of losing
their jobs, because they just didn't think they could pass the tests or change after all the years, you know.
And, we went to Clyde and talked to him about it. And, of course, he called. And, Gordon Fee was a part
of it. He called the Laboratory and talked about what we were concerned about. And, they all got their
heads together, met with us, and we were allowed to get this program. The Skills Enhancement Program
is what we called it, because we didn't want it to sound derogatory. And, we even had some people who
had their diplomas, but they just lacked certain courses that we had in the program. And, Carolyn Cuddy
worked with it.
STOW: I know Carolyn.
HOLLOWAY: Yes, Carolyn worked with it. And, Theresa Riggs and I headed up that program.
11
STOW: Theresa Riggs, I remember her, too.
HOLLOWAY: Yes. We headed that program up, and it did so well. We had a location at ORNL and a
location at Y-12. And, the people would be excused from their work hours at a certain time to go to their
class. At that time, we actually were involved with the plants in getting the contracts. We actually were
allowed to interview the contractors that we were thinking of. And, at that time we ended up hiring
Sylvan Learning Systems. They came in and were teaching these classes – for those people who were so
fearful that they were not going to hold onto their jobs.
STOW: Now, this is what year we’re talking about? You don't have to be exact, but just kind of put it in
perspective.
HOLLOWAY: I'd say, sometime around '89 or '90.
STOW: All right.
HOLLOWAY: And, they were here several years. And, the program was very successful. And, we were
very proud of our team that saw to the implementation of the program, working on it day by day. Our
team was honored at the Martin Marietta Energy Systems Awards Night.
STOW: Okay.
HOLLOWAY: Basically, we had quite a few union people on the team. Each local union in the ATLC
had a representative on the team. And, the team was quite large. And, then we had the same number of
management people also on the team. I have a picture of Mike Cuddy cutting the ribbon to the Skills
Enhancement Program at the building on 909 Scarboro Road.
STOW: I saw Mike just the other day, as a matter of fact.
HOLLOWAY: Did you? And, that was really a highlight for us, because we worked together, hand-inhand,
labor and management. Theresa was the management person and I was the union person, but you
couldn't tell the difference. We were co-chairs of the Skills Enhancement Program. And, we were invited
that night to the awards banquet, and it was just wonderful.
STOW: Whatever became of that program?
HOLLOWAY: I don't really know how its demise came about. Maybe there was no need for it after a
while. But, I was talking with Marcella Willis, who played a big part in that, and she told me that it was
no more. They didn't have the Skills Enhancement Program anymore. So, I don't really know. It was still
in effect when I left in '96.
STOW: I don't know what ever happened to it myself either. We certainly don't have anything like it
today that I'm aware of.
HOLLOWAY: Right.
STOW: Let's talk a little bit about some of your community interactions and your community
involvement and so on. As I look over your background, I'm struck by the public service activities and
community outreach activities that you've undertaken. What got you so involved with the community, and
has much of this happened since you retired from ORNL?
12
HOLLOWAY: Not really. I've done quite a bit while I was still working, but, of course, now that I'm not
working, I have more time. But, I've just always been active -- if I can help somebody -- I think that's
what it is. When people call, you know, I can be there. My husband kids me now, saying, "You can come
in and you're so tired, but if somebody calls and they need some help, you’re ready to go."
STOW: You don't know how to say "no," do you?
HOLLOWAY: (laughs) Right. But, I've just always been involved in the community. When my children
were young and at home, of course, it all mostly centered around them. But, once they got up and grown,
I've just been the kind of person that wants to help all I can. So, many times I think I get called because
they know I won't say no, you know. But, I try to think that out, too. And, I do have a genuine interest in
all the things that I do. I have some personal interest in it also.
STOW: I look here on your resume and I see Tennessee Judicial Council.
HOLLOWAY: And, you know, that's an honor. I was just appointed to that last year.
STOW: Oh, is that right?
HOLLOWAY: By the governor. My term runs until 2007.
STOW: Yes.
HOLLOWAY: And, at the time, I got a call and they said, "You've been nominated for a position on the
Judicial Council. Would you accept the nomination?" And, there again, I asked, "What do I have to do?”
And, they told me. And, really, I work with the Judicial Council on all judicial matters across the State of
Tennessee. In fact, I have a meeting tomorrow in Nashville, and they've already sent me the book of
legislation that the State Legislature has referred to the Judicial Council to come up with a resolution for
them. And so, we'll meet tomorrow and discuss different pieces of legislation and make
recommendations. I’ll tell you what. After the lady called from the Governor's office to tell me I had been
nominated to the Judicial Council, I said, "Well, my goodness, I can't think of anybody who would
nominate me." And, believe it or not, do you know Don Trauger?
STOW: I know Don very well.
14
HOLLOWAY: Okay. Don Trauger's son, Byron...
STOW: Yes. He's a lawyer in Nashville.
HOLLOWAY: Yes. He's in Nashville, and he's very close to the governor. When Byron was a young man
in Oak Ridge, I always admired him so, because he is so intelligent. And, we were just friends. Then they
told me that Byron Trauger had nominated me for a position on the Judicial Council.
STOW: My goodness.
HOLLOWAY: Associates of the Governor nominate people for different positions. They give several
names to the Governor for [each open position on a council or other group].
STOW: Sure.
HOLLOWAY: And, then ultimately the Governor chooses people from their resumes and other things.
13
STOW: Now, one would think, from what you say about that position or that council, that you would
need legal training and background.
HOLLOWAY: Well, I'll tell you what happens there. And, I wasn't aware of all this. Actually, I didn't
even know there was a Judicial Council until all of this happened.
STOW: No, I didn't know it either.
HOLLOWAY: The sitting Governor now is very concerned about everybody being a part of things, if it's
going to affect them. Okay?
STOW: Okay.
HOLLOWAY: The Judicial Council, up until this time, had been made up of lawyers, judges, and other
people in the legal field. Well, okay. Governor Bredesen has appointed two lay people to the council,
also. I'm one of the lay people and [the other person is] a gentleman from Memphis.
STOW: Well, good.
HOLLOWAY: It's really interesting work.
STOW: I can imagine it would be.
HOLLOWAY: We have looked at the court costs across the State of Tennessee. I had no idea there was
such a mess, in terms of what the court costs really are. A person who commits some misdemeanor pays a
certain amount in court costs in one county. Someone who does the same thing in another county may
have to pay twice as much in court costs. Nobody in any one county knew what the other counties were
doing. And so, we met with the clerks of all the county courts for six months. Then we made
recommendations to the Governor and to the State Legislature [the Tennessee General Assembly]. And,
there’s a bill in there now on how to [make court costs uniform in all 95 counties], rather than have them
be all over the map. And, those are the kinds of things that are referred to us.
STOW: So, this is no small matter. It takes a lot of your time, doesn't it?
HOLLOWAY: Yes, it does.
STOW: I read here that you've been on The Governor's Families First Task Force, Anderson County
Commission, The National Association of County Officials, the East Tennessee Women's Political
Caucus and on and on. Of all of these different activities, community service, public service and so on,
what are you most proud of?
HOLLOWAY: I guess I’m most proud of my work here at ORNL. And, this comes back to public service
but also can be related to our work. It's the time that ORNL and the ATLC were selected from across the
State of Tennessee as the Labor-Management Group of the Year. We had to do lots of research. We had
to send in what we did together, such as our accomplishments and our work as partners. Throughout the
State of Tennessee, we were selected as the Labor-Management Group of the Year. I think I'm proud of
that in two respects. It was hard work getting to that point, and we did lots of community things together.
We used to have labor-management conferences. Labor-management groups would meet from place to
place, and we would discuss mutual things. We even had a Tripartite Health and Safety Committee, [with
representatives from] the Department of Energy, the contractor, and the union. And, once every two or
three months, we met at the Department of Energy and talked about mutual problems that could affect all
14
of us and worked out solutions to problems we saw coming down the road. And, I guess I really liked
those kinds of things. And, so the community service just comes really easy for me.
STOW: And, it's very rewarding to you, is it not?
HOLLOWAY: It is. It really is.
STOW: When I look at your community services and your background, the obvious question arises. Have
you ever considered running for public office?
HOLLOWAY: Well, the only thing that I've run for is the Anderson County Commission. There again, I
hadn't even thought of it. People in the community asked me if I would consider running for County
Commission -- that's a county office, or the legislative branch of the county government. And, I thought
about it. At first I thought, "I don't know if I want to do that or not." But, I thought more and more about
it and, there again, I felt that I could make a difference through outreach to people. And, I gave it a shot,
and I won the first time out (laughs).
STOW: Have you ever given any thought in running for a state position -- state representative or senator?
HOLLOWAY: I have. And, people call all the time asking me about that. And, of course, Jim Hackworth
is our representative now; he’s an employee at the Lab. And, I worked very hard in his campaign, and we
were successful. And, sometimes I think about it. But, I haven't really ruled it out (laughs).
STOW: Good. If you could look back over your entire career, not only your ORNL career, but your
public service career, and do anything over differently, what would that be? Or, are you pretty well
satisfied with the way things have gone over the years?
HOLLOWAY: You know, I am pleased and I think I'm a real success story, so to speak. Because of
where I came from and what I have accomplished, I'm very pleased with my life. But, I think if there was
anything that I would do over again, I think I would have gone to school, probably at a younger age, and
gotten more education, a formal education, that is. I've been very lucky though, having been an employee
here at ORNL, and I have been able to take courses. One time, I think the union people who took courses
did not get reimbursed. Well, we stopped that, too.
STOW: That's right.
HOLLOWAY: (laughs) And, I guess I might have been one of the first that decided I wanted to take a
course, so I went to labor relations and asked if I could. At first, they said, "Well, we don't think so, but
then let us check on it." And, they checked into it. And, Gordon Fee, Clyde Hopkins, and Herman Postma
all said, "Well, sure, if they want to do that." And so, I was in a position where I could further my
education. But at an earlier age, I think, if I had anything to do over, I would have continued in school.
STOW: I asked you this question earlier. Let's try it again. What individual out there has had the greatest
influence on you as a person and on your career?
HOLLOWAY: Well, I think I have to go back to my grandmother.
STOW: Okay.
HOLLOWAY: My grandmother actually was my mother. My mother and father were divorced when I
was a small child. We went to live with her mother, my mother and me. And, I've been brought up to
15
believe that if I strive hard enough, I can be anything that I want to be. And, the desire has to be there. So,
I would say that had been bred in me from [the time I was] a very small child. And then, anytime I've
done anything, you know -- not for show or whatever -- it has always been rewarding. So, I tell you a
person in the county government who I think has had a real influence on me, as far as community service
and [political matters go] -- is Judge Buddy Scott [formerly of Anderson County Criminal Court].
STOW: Okay.
HOLLOWAY: When there have been [opportunities] that I had no idea I would even be tapped for, he
has always been so complimentary and willing to help [me when] he can. When I ask him a question, he
takes the time to answer it. , I just think he's had an awful lot of influence on me. When I got appointed to
the Judicial Council, I called him immediately and told him about it. And, he went to his law books and
copied all of the stuff that the Judicial Council has the power to do and brought it to me. You know, he
was just so proud that I had been tapped for that position. So, people in the community have really played
a big part in my success and in whatever I've tried to do.
STOW: Sometime down the road, maybe 50 years from now, they're going to be looking back on the
history of Oak Ridge National Laboratory and your name may crop up. You never know.
HOLLOWAY: (laughs)
STOW: What do you want your legacy to be? What would you want someone to remember about you
down the road after we're all long gone from the face of the earth?
HOLLOWAY: Well, I just want people to remember me as a person who worked hard, cared about other
people, and did everything in her power to make sure that people were treated equally. I’d like to be
thought of as a person that helped other people along the way.
STOW: Now, you've got five children.
HOLLOWAY: Yes.
STOW: Do they take after you with regard to the desire to help others with the same persistence and
drive?
HOLLOWAY: Pretty much. I'll tell you -- they help each other quite a bit, especially my daughters. I
have one daughter whose young son was born deaf. And, so he's had, of course, a lot of attention. And, he
wasn't doing or adjusting very well. She made a career move, and he wasn't adjusting very well in the
California school system. And, it was because he just was not in the setting that was comfortable for him.
My oldest daughter lives in Ohio, and they have a school there, St. Regis, that's supposed to be top notch
for teaching children who are deaf or have other handicaps. And, my oldest daughter has my third
daughter's son at her house now, so he can attend St. Regis school.
STOW: It sounds like they've come by those traits honestly.
HOLLOWAY: Right. Yes (laughs).
STOW: Is there anything that we haven't touched on here that you'd like to mention? We've touched on
ORNL history, Scarboro issues, racial issues, community service ...
HOLLOWAY: Well, not really in that context, I guess, Steve. But, I would like to say that, honestly, I am
proud to say that I have passed through this way -- ORNL -- and I thank everyone for all the help that
16
they've given me along the way and [for] the inspiration that they've given to me. ORNL is a beautiful
place, and I mean that from the depths of my heart. And, I don't know of anyone with ORNL that I've
come in contact with who has not been willing to help me. And, had it not been for ORNL and the
Atomic Trades and Labor Council, I don't think I would have been as far along as I am.
STOW: Well, I think it's safe to say that ORNL and the Labor Council wouldn't be as far along, if it were
not for you.
HOLLOWAY: Well, I appreciate that (laughs).
STOW: So, thank you very much.
HOLLOWAY: Thank you.
STOW: And, I'll take the liberty of speaking for the entire community and say thank you for everything.
HOLLOWAY: Okay. Well, thank you so much and, like I say, ORNL is the best.
------------------------------------------END OF INTERVIEW-------------------------------------------------------