OP obviously has the skill to read stats, no true skill in practical sport driving.

drop out of powerband
you are right. but that's the SKILL you learn with manual sports car with these types of engines. not paddling through your fingers and let the automatic gearbox do the work. what's so sporty about that?

"what is this, a vtec?"
while it sounds funny, this is actually a good statement.
YES, the S65 is a lot like V tec engine, especially in the "flexible" powerband of the engine. when you are out of gear, the rpm of the engine will drop very fast.
Like all ferrari NA engines, like Porsche NA engines, V Tec engines and our M NA engines, the downfall of rpm is very fast with gear in/out.
This is especially true for NA engines, which are so "responsive" in this aspect than any turbo engines.
Together with manual drive, this is what makes the "sporty" character of a sports car, a sporty engine.
YES the DCT can do it faster and you won't have to worry about the precise gearing into the right rpm via double or heel toe with the third pedal. but ultimately you are losing all the fun about "driving" these engines.

That's what makes these engines so responsive and sensitive, and requiring the good skill to get 100% potential out of its sporty character.

This is the reason why we feel "dull" when we drive the American muscle NA engines and even audi S and RS NA engines, you can just see their rpm falling so slow when the gear is in/out.
And with this, when you are driving under a very sporty condition of fast corners and speed, you are lost because you can never expect the exact timing of the downfall of these engines during gear in/out, ultimately makes the car less responsive and dull

Little last comment about the M5
Driven the new M5 in manual, it is completely different from the M3.
the turbo, yes no lag and it's fast and all, is never responsive in this aspect of gear in/out rpm rise/fall. When you are out of gear you just have to wait and wait until this damn rpm falls. In this regard, when put together with an MT, M3's S65 NA engine is a perfect package.

Finally, M3 doesn't work well with manual car?
We've seen the "toughness" of this clutch M provides for the M3. Those who have driven other popular manual cars, like carerra, S2K, etc, will easily say our clutch is deeper and requires more force. But with that in mind, our stock clutch and tranny is good enough to withstand 600 whp+ upgrades, no problem whatsoever

We all know DCT can perform, and the trend is in that direction for all automotive sport industries.
But it's like asking why buy a full manual SLR camera when a simpl point-and-shoot can find resolution, focus, and shoot for you.

so before you make a statement like that, perhaps go drive manual more and enhance your skill, especially with these marvelous NA engines.

Where do you come up with all these threads? Where do you get your information from?

I've never seen so many threads created by a single user in such a short period of time.

You stated the E60 M5 and E64/63 M6 wasn't offered with a manual. Strange comment since I've driven manual ones. You stated that BMW never tested it with 6MT - not sure how you arrived to that conclusion. You think they would put anything into production without testing it? No.

I'll take my 6MT please. Even on the track. Different experience. Not sure what makes you think it drops out of the powerband. Gearing is the same in 3rd, 4th, and 5th between the DCT and 6MT, isn't it?

Now on the F10 M5 I choose to go with DCT because it's a bit more powerful and well suited for the DCT. Not to mention it feels much better than the M3's DCT. DCT is more important on the new M5 than any of BMW's previous cars.

Comes down to your use and personal preference. Simple.

Oh, and since you're in CA, let's go for some head to head runs and see how my 6MT does.

DCTs are already at the point where the performance is greater than manuals but they will NEVER be as fun and enjoyable to drive as MT. Rowing through the gears on an empty straight away provides a joy like no other

Get the point that the S85 engine was originally designed for the SMG II and using the MT in the E60 was in fact not a priority. However, in designing the E9x M3, given it was offered first with a manual (and was the intro to the market and the base car for all major tests) in addition to modest gearing changes (and a higher diff ratio), don't think there's much evidence to say that the S65 was not developed with the MT as the core transmission. Isn't the torque curve for the S65 engine more "MT friendly" vs the S85 to begin with?

When I ordered my car, I was going to go with the DCT, as I knew on paper it would be the fastest iteration of the M3. I was 90% there decision wise, but wanted to make absolutely sure, so I test drove the only MT available at the dealership at the time which was a convertible. Yes it felt slower (tranny plus extra weight), but it was soooooo much more fun to drive....at that point I thought that the MT was the transmission meant for this car and changed my order with the CA immediately after the drive.

So back to the m3, if you have a top engineering company like M, designs a 8400 rpm v8 designed to operate above 6k rpms for extracting power, why would you not want to choose the transmission that it was designed with and designed to enable you to stay in that power band since that is where the power is.

Maybe you don't remember that back in 2007 when the E92M3 appeared in the first European dealerships there was no transmission option; only the 6 speed model existed. So, I guess I do agree with you in a sense: It was introduced with a 6 speed which makes it the "original configuration"; designed for a 6 speed. Why would anyone bother with something that comes along later?

All kidding aside. BMW is in the business of selling emotional experiences. That is why it behooves BMW to offer its M cars with stick plus whatever automatic version is in vogue so as to cover the pool of potential customers. While a DCT equipped driver might wonder "Why would anyone not want the luxury of a performance car that frees up two of four limbs?" even as his/her emotional desires are met in the knowledge that DCT delivers that which the 6 speed would not meet, by the same token, to the row-your-own-gears M3 owner, the DCT delivers absolutely nothing that BMW believes the M buyer should expect in one of its cars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munit

I understand the history and the "feeling" but if you choose a car designed with a certain tranny and technology-why not embrace the technology of this car or otherwise choose a different car that was designed with a manual tranny in mind-even the new m5 or a mustang or a regular 335i n54 motor etc.

No you don't. If you truly understood, you would not have started this thread and you certainly wouldn't be suggesting some of us purchased the wrong car.

I didn't think it was a stretch considering the e60 indeed was designed and built for using a SMG. The manual was an afterthought due to the american market demand and then yes of course they tested it but was not their goal to even offer it and many press releases said it was made to work with smg

Considering the powerplant in the m3 is designed off the s85, it is not unfounded to think the smg/dct also is a better fit in terms of delivering the engine power most consistently in its powerband. Again the market pressure of america makes it not even a consideration to no longer replace it.

But why is this so far off considering what happened with the e60 m5 and how they designed it for SMG. Not sure why its so far fetched to think a similar mindset came to the m3 as for them its about how to make the car perform the best, which dct/smg allows it to do

I think its fair to say that the current M3 V8 was designed to be a better "fit" for a DCT than an MT. To allow a DCT to make near instant shifts it needs to be mated to a high revving, lightweight low inertia engine which will drop revs as quickly as possible on closed throttle....the MT instead would be easier to shift with a more traditional engine design.

I think its fair to say that the current M3 V8 was designed to be a better "fit" for a DCT than an MT. To allow a DCT to make near instant shifts it needs to be mated to a high revving, lightweight low inertia engine which will drop revs as quickly as possible on closed throttle....the MT instead would be easier to shift with a more traditional engine design.

I wholeheartedly DISAGREE. What you're stating is simply your opinion, and you're entitled to that. However, it's not a fact. It's simply preference to say that the S65 works better with a DCT. In fact, all dual clutches make near instant shifts, regardless of engine types, and they work quite well with turbocharged engines.