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Topic: How the 'Enemy' sees us - Orthodoxy according to Dave Hunt (Read 9623 times)

Although I know this is of particular interest to the Orthodox apologists, I thought it also might interest the wider online community here to see ourselves through the eyes of Dave Hunt. This is a piece entitled Church Tradition or Christ? and I've snipped the opening pieces on the RCC to get down to what he says about Orthodoxy. A feast of misinformation follows and you'll find everybody from Jerry Falwell to Father Alexander Men. Can't say Dave doesn't cover a lot of ground!

Eastern Orthodoxy is the close twin of Catholicism. Richard John Neuhaus, Lutheran pastor turned Catholic priest and chief architect (with Charles Colson) of "Evangelicals and Catholics Together" (ECT), declares, "The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are in essential agreement on doctrine, ministerial order and the sacraments." (4) Geoff Thomas, in the British paper, The Evangelical Times, agrees that the Orthodox Church's "central beliefs are virtually identical to those of Roman Catholicism except that it rejects papal infallibility. Its priests may marry but its bishops are chosen from the ranks of the celibate."

Orthodoxy and Catholicism trust in the same unbiblical, perpetually virgin and all-powerful Mary. For example, Traditions about the Earthly Life of the Most Holy Mother of God, published by a Russian Orthodox monastery in 1903, has a sinless Mary from age thee serving for 14 years in the Holy of Holies in the temple (pp 55-56), fed by an angel (p 58) and giving birth to Jesus at age 15 (p 199). This "Queen of Heaven" inspired the Gospels and Epistles but was too humble to take credit. The first icon of Mary appeared miraculously in a temple in Lyddia which Peter and John had built in her honor (p 173). Christ's descent in beams of heavenly light with patriarchs and prophets to take His mother to heaven is also told (p 188).

A friend born and raised as an atheist in Moscow, Russia, received Christ in her twenties a few years ago. Her elderly grandmother, a devout Russian Orthodox "Christian" all of her life, wept because she couldn't understand "why God let that boy be crucified?' In the Orthodox Church for 81 years, she knew by heart every ritual and the order in which to kiss the icons and light the candles -- but she had no idea that "that boy" had died for her sins on the Cross. Orthodoxy had so blinded her that she couldn't understand when her granddaughter gave her the gospel!

The very heart of Eastern Orthodoxy is the call to become gods through Church ritual and good works. In Eastern Orthodox Christianity (Baker Books. 1994). Daniel B. Clendenin explains that in Orthodox theology "Deification ... is the ultimate purpose of God's creation." He quotes Orthodox saints to the effect that we "become god through union with God by faith" (p 135). "The 'science of stillness,' contemplation, and the interiorization of prayer through constant invocation of the name of Jesus are also of chief importance" (p 136). We must also "participate faithfully in the sacraments ... keeping the commandments of God is indispensable: 'In the end they make a man god....'" (p 137).

Deification is a lengthy process in which the Church and its priesthood are absolutely essential. Salvation by grace through faith is vigorously opposed. Eastern Orthodox Theology, A Contemporary Reader, edited by Daniel B. Clendenin (Baker Books, 1995), explains Orthodox theology with chapters by a number of leading Orthodox scholars. Yet the index contains no listing for gospel, redemption, saved, salvation, etc.

Christoforos Stavropoulos, leading Greek Orthodox scholar, explains (p 184), "In the Holy Scriptures ... we read of a unique call directed to us...: 'You are gods ... all of you' (Ps 82:6; Jn 10:34) ... As human beings we each have this one unique calling, to achieve theosis ... to become a god, to be like God Himself...:' Such was Lucifer's ambition: "I will be like the most High" (Isa 14:14)!

Psalms 82:6 is not a call to become gods but a declaration that men already were gods through Adam's rebellion ("the man has become as one of us" - Gn 3:22), which caused the expulsion from the Garden (vv 23-24). There is only one true God; all gods are false. God declares, "The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth [no man-god created the universe], even they shall perish from the earth..:' (Jer 10:11). Yet Kenneth Copeland and Paul Crouch (like Shirley MacLaine) insist on TBN that they are indeed gods!

Similarly, in his celebrated book, Crossing The Threshold of Hope (Knopf, 1994), Pope John Paul II explains that "salvation and divinization" are the "ultimate purpose" of man's life. "The divinization of man comes from God" (p 195). Likewise, the new universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, quoting St. Athanasius and St. Thomas Aquinas, declares, "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God ... The only begotten Son of God ... assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods" (par 460).

Seventy-five percent of Russians claim to be Orthodox, yet 63% are atheists. (5) In Tsarist times the Russian Orthodox Church was the official state church and its consent was required for any law to be passed. Russian Christian Radio (P.o. Box 1667, Estes Park, CO 80517) comments:

"The Orthodox Church was behind the persecution of evangelical Christians long before the communists came into power...: [Today] the same men [in the church] who cooperated with the Communist rulers ... are still in power ...."

"There are definite signs of a rising opposition by the Orthodox Church against Protestant evangelistic groups .... Protestants are being accused of proselytizing and are being warned not to try to change anyone's church affiliation ...."

The Dallas Morning News (7/15/93) reported, "Dr. [Billy] Graham met with the Russian Orthodox patriarch and ... [they] agreed that proselytizing was inappropriate." Russian lawmakers later voted to ban proselytizing by foreigners. The Orthodox Church opposes the gospel throughout Russia. Every morning on Russian TV an Orthodox priest urges viewers not to listen to evangelicals from the West. In Moscow young Orthodox hooligans accompanied by their priest harass evangelicals, shouting, "We don't need your Jesus, we have our own Christianity."

Another friend writes, "Having lived and ministered in Russia for several years, I know how hard it is to get Christians in this country to understand that the Russian Orthodox religion is not Christianity." A false view is being, perpetuated by evangelical leaders. Early in June 1996, Franklin Graham, interviewed on CNBC, declared, "[W]hether it's the Roman Catholic Church ... the Orthodox Church ... we'd all agree ... it's Jesus Christ who paid the penalty for sin." That statement was tragically deceptive. Could Franklin be unaware that Catholicism and Orthodoxy, while using the same biblical words as evangelicals, mean something else?

In 1992, Robert Schuller launched a new organization called Churches United in Global Mission (CUGM), "to share positively the message of Jesus Christ ... [in] a spirit of unity that is truly Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, evangelical and charismatic." A friend of mine wrote from Moscow, "On his [Robert Schuller's] Sunday morning telecast he said something like, 'If being a Protestant means that I protest my Catholic brothers ... [or] against my Orthodox brothers ... [or] against believers of other religions, I am not a Protestant."'

Evangelicals coming from the West to evangelize Russians naively look to the Orthodox Church for help and are often duped. Jerry Falwell was part of a large evangelistic outreach in Moscow last year involving a tour which many Americans joined to see the "wonderful response to the gospel in the former Soviet Union." Jerry was the principal speaker at a large gathering in Moscow's Olympic Stadium. According to Russian/English speaking attendees, he gave a clear gospel message, but the translator changed it to conform to Orthodox belief. When Jerry gave the invitation to receive Christ (offensive to Orthodoxy), the translator made it sound like a call for all who wanted to join in prayer. Many people raised their hands, leading Jerry and those with him to mistakenly believe there had been a great response to the gospel.

A further deception was the fact that a major purpose of the meeting in Olympic Stadium was to commemorate the fourth anniversary of the martyrdom of celebrated Orthodox priest Alexander Menn. There were pantomimes and speeches by Orthodox priests honoring him and the distribution of thousands of his books in Russian. Falwell and his team had no idea of the heresies in the Russian copies because the English copy they received deleted favorable references to Buddha and Confucius, that all religions lead to God and that God had spoken through every founder of the great religions. Menn promoted evolution and the power of icons as a window to God and, loyal to Orthodoxy, rejected the biblical gospel. Josh McDowell was also unwittingly involved in a meeting in Moscow where Alexander Menn was again celebrated.

Campus Crusade for Christ has long accepted Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy as true Christianity. A former [Crusade] staff member who became an Orthodox priest testifies, "During my two-and-a-half years on staff [at Crusade headquarters] ... I fully participated in the nearby Greek Orthodox parish, Saint Prophet Elias .... Campus Crusade encouraged my active participation.." (6) Frank Schaeffer (son of Francis and Edith Schaeffer) dedicates Dancing Alone (Holy Cross Orthodox Press, 1994), the story of his conversion to Orthodoxy, to several former Campus Crusade staff members who are now Orthodox priests and who introduced him to the Orthodox Church.

Schaeffer confesses that the evangelical faith in which his famous parents reared him had to be renounced as a false religion in order to embrace the Catholic/Orthodox faith. Yet Colson, Bright, Packer and other evangelicals embrace Catholics as partners in the gospel! Schaeffer now calls being "born again" the Protestant's "meaningless ... magical instantaneous 'silver bullet' solution to sin." He says we are not saved by "believing that Christ died on the cross for us [but] by struggling to become like Christ ... We are gradually saved as we are deified." (His emphasis)

We have a "church growth" and "prayer and fasting for revival" movement led by those who refuse to distinguish between biblical truth and error and who join in partnership with the proclaimers of a false gospel. No wonder the statistics reveal a growing counterfeit Christianity. Let us, by the power of God, resist the pressure to conform to today's "Christianity," and stand firmly for sound biblical doctrine. The destiny of souls depends upon it! TBC

If I were to write a piece on a religious faith, I would first read what they themselves had to say about their beliefs, wouldn't you?

Well yes, Linus I would too, but why bother when you have so many unnamed "friends" who can tell you exactly what you want to hear? Saves a lot of hard work I suppose!

I've been doing a bit of online research into Dave and have been surprised by some of what I've found. He was born in 1926 and comes from a Plymouth Brethern background. Somehow I imagined he'd be younger. He seems to have fallen from grace (pardon the pun) with other fundamentalists over the issue of the KJV of the Bible and this dispensationalism business. Anyway, if you can stomach anymore there is another very good article by a RC Benedictine on Dave at:

Title: A Look at Dave Hunt, Leading Anti-Catholic Fundamentalist Author: W. Robert Aufill Larger Work: New Oxford Review Pages: 30-35 Publisher & Date: New Oxford Review, Inc., January 1999 Description: An interesting look at Dave Hunt, the author of, A Woman Rides the Beast: The Roman Catholic Church and the Last Days which expounds the belief that the Church is the Whore of Babylon.

The Pilgrim Church is a book by Broadbent that attempts to trace the "apostolic succession" of the Plymouth Brethren. It uses all of the usual suspects: Donatists, Novatianists, Paulicans, Cathari, Waldenses. It has all the normal claims of persecution of the "true church in the wilderness." My favorite part is where he cites documents "that are no longer availible today". I think the book is posted online, if you want to read it.

The Pilgrim Church is a book by Broadbent that attempts to trace the "apostolic succession" of the Plymouth Brethren. It uses all of the usual suspects: Donatists, Novatianists, Paulicans, Cathari, Waldenses. It has all the normal claims of persecution of the "true church in the wilderness." My favorite part is where he cites documents "that are no longer availible today". I think the book is posted online, if you want to read it.

Yes indeed Monkey. I checked out this review and found an interesting question posed:

How is that Broadbent’s account differs from many others then? He travelled extensively gathering what he could from various sources and directly from those who were descendants of ‘the pilgrim church’. He reads between the lines of the accounts given by ‘their enemies’, which of course would not paint them in any favourable light. There were some preserved, written records, which clearly expose the tyrannical behaviour of much of the ‘official’ Church. Interestingly, I recall reading somewhere that many of these have since ‘disappeared’ since Broadbent’s days. The recently (1999) reissued edition of The Pilgrim Church has an excellent forward by Dave Hunt. He also makes mention there of records no longer being in circulation. What makes this account so valuable is that it drew upon sources that were available in the Author’s day (he lived from 1861 - 1945), much of which does not seem to be now in circulation.This book is about ‘real’ Church history. It needs to be read right through and not kept solely for reference, but will do very nicely for that purpose afterwards.

When I first read The Pilgrim Church, I was shocked. I didn't know if it was extremely poor scholarship or a deliberate attempt at deception. I am (and have been for some time) in the process of writing an extended commentary of the book. It began as a simple review and critique, but is growing into a word by word analysis of the book.

There is a similar book The Trail of Blood by J.M.Carroll. It traces the "history" of the Landmark Baptists through basically the same line. I believe that the SDA have a similar claim, as well as several other "remnant churches". Each one claims to have the same beliefs as these ancient groups, even though most of these ancient groups are either very catholic or completely heretical.

I submit that it is not only "Fundamentalists" that pick and choose and read history poorly. It seems to be a human thing to pick out things that one likes and supports one's position/views while rejecting other things that do not. Trying to remember that just because one likes or believes something doesn't make it the Law of the Universe can be hard.

Critical reading is not an inate skill but must be learnt. Just because something is in a printed book or on a website doesn't mean it's true.

My apologies for sounding too much like a book of maxims.

Ebor

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

Are you aware of the series of letters the Lutheran theologians of Tuebingen sent the Patriarch Jeremiah of Constantinople in the 17th century?

The "Ortho region," as you refer to it, did not have to wait for Cyril Lukarius for exposure to the heresy of Protestantism. They were already familiar with it.

And I believe most of us here are converts from Protestantism and Roman Catholicism, so we're pretty familiar with it, too.

You're right about Dave Hunt, and he has gotten around to bashing the Orthodox Church - just read all of the posts on page one of this thread. You will see in one of them an extensive anti-Orthodox quote from Hunt.

Hunt seems to spend most of his time attacking the beliefs of others.

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The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.- Pope St. Hormisdas

Forgive a terrible Johnny come lately. I read a piece by piece analysis of this broadcast and his accusations were false.I actually corresponded with Dave a little bit about a month ago and have to say he was very nice. However for some reason the evil one never ceases to find new avenues for attacking our faith, sometimes including self professed Christians

I've decided to stop gathering resources for my Morey project. I think I have enough anyway to update it as well as to finish it. And so it might take 2 to 3 weeks. I'll eventually look at what Dave is doing in due time, but Tony has been doing a real good job with them.

ICXC NIKA

« Last Edit: November 27, 2009, 11:31:00 PM by jnorm888 »

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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

The Pilgrim Church is a book by Broadbent that attempts to trace the "apostolic succession" of the Plymouth Brethren. It uses all of the usual suspects: Donatists, Novatianists, Paulicans, Cathari, Waldenses. It has all the normal claims of persecution of the "true church in the wilderness." My favorite part is where he cites documents "that are no longer availible today". I think the book is posted online, if you want to read it.

Yes indeed Monkey. I checked out this review and found an interesting question posed:

How is that Broadbent’s account differs from many others then? He travelled extensively gathering what he could from various sources and directly from those who were descendants of ‘the pilgrim church’. He reads between the lines of the accounts given by ‘their enemies’, which of course would not paint them in any favourable light. There were some preserved, written records, which clearly expose the tyrannical behaviour of much of the ‘official’ Church. Interestingly, I recall reading somewhere that many of these have since ‘disappeared’ since Broadbent’s days. The recently (1999) reissued edition of The Pilgrim Church has an excellent forward by Dave Hunt. He also makes mention there of records no longer being in circulation. What makes this account so valuable is that it drew upon sources that were available in the Author’s day (he lived from 1861 - 1945), much of which does not seem to be now in circulation.This book is about ‘real’ Church history. It needs to be read right through and not kept solely for reference, but will do very nicely for that purpose afterwards.

The Pilgrim Church is a book by Broadbent that attempts to trace the "apostolic succession" of the Plymouth Brethren. It uses all of the usual suspects: Donatists, Novatianists, Paulicans, Cathari, Waldenses. It has all the normal claims of persecution of the "true church in the wilderness." My favorite part is where he cites documents "that are no longer availible today". I think the book is posted online, if you want to read it.

Yes indeed Monkey. I checked out this review and found an interesting question posed:

How is that Broadbent’s account differs from many others then? He travelled extensively gathering what he could from various sources and directly from those who were descendants of ‘the pilgrim church’. He reads between the lines of the accounts given by ‘their enemies’, which of course would not paint them in any favourable light. There were some preserved, written records, which clearly expose the tyrannical behaviour of much of the ‘official’ Church. Interestingly, I recall reading somewhere that many of these have since ‘disappeared’ since Broadbent’s days. The recently (1999) reissued edition of The Pilgrim Church has an excellent forward by Dave Hunt. He also makes mention there of records no longer being in circulation. What makes this account so valuable is that it drew upon sources that were available in the Author’s day (he lived from 1861 - 1945), much of which does not seem to be now in circulation.This book is about ‘real’ Church history. It needs to be read right through and not kept solely for reference, but will do very nicely for that purpose afterwards.

I've decided to stop gathering resources for my Morey project. I think I have enough anyway to update it as well as to finish it. And so it might take 2 to 3 weeks. I'll eventually look at what Dave is doing in due time, but Tony has been doing a real good job with them.

I've decided to stop gathering resources for my Morey project. I think I have enough anyway to update it as well as to finish it. And so it might take 2 to 3 weeks. I'll eventually look at what Dave is doing in due time, but Tony has been doing a real good job with them.

ICXC NIKA

Beautiful blog, but why is it on hold?

It's a long story. I'm trying to help change the situation as we speak, but I may not be successful in my attempt, and so Keep him in prayer. Sorry, but I don't think it's right for me to say anything until he does first.

ICXC NIKA

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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.