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Ok, just looked at the circuits he provided and they are definitely correct. Im not sure that the battery currents in the plasma of the spark is the way things would happen. The output of the sec is through the spark plug to the engine block to gnd. If someone can look that over while Im out to see if Im right, Id like a second opinion.

Ok. reading over Mhs post, One of the first things I noticed was the battery polarity used. Now I can say that the 2 circuits are incorrect in that sense. The Neg should be at the bottom of the batt and coil and Pos at the top. It doesnt make a difference in how the circuit works here though. I didnt think on the + and - before, but i see it now...Nobodys fault but the guy who drew it up. Wasnt Mh n wasnt me.

"The action of this circuit can be called a "direct battery-plasma reaction."

When the swicth first opens there is a certain amount of magentic energy in the core that has to go somewhere. One more time, the very high voltage secondary initiates a plasma spark just like for the simpler circuit. However, here is where things change. The conducting plasma on the end of the high-voltage coil to ground is a de facto temporary load resistor to ground. The battery sees this "plasma load resistor" through the action of the "direct battery-plasma reaction." The ignition coil acts like a conventional step-up transfomer. This step-up transformer only exists while the plasma burn is taking place. The battery is across the primary (with the capacitor in series). The "plasma resistor" is across the seondary. Since it is a high-voltage step-up transformer, the impedance of the "plasma resistor" is very low from the perspective of the primary and thus the battery, perhaps less than one ohm. Therefore, the battery starts pumping current into the primary and adding magnetic energy to the ignition coil core. That magnetic energy is output via the high voltage coil into the "plasma resistor." So, in summary, the inital spark generated by the opening of the switch allows the battery to start directly discharging into the "plasma resistor" via the ignition coil acting like a step-up transformer. This is the "direct battery-plasma reaction."

Mmmm, Im not buying it.. The primary gets charged up, or to say the field builds while the switch is closed, When the field collapses, that collapsing field is what induces the secondary producing high voltage across the secondary. Now what it looks like you are saying is that the secondary being induced, then producing the spark, causes current from the battery to flow through the cap and into the primary once more while the switch is open, and reinduces the secondary more? All on battery potential(voltage) alone?? Through a .14uf cap to produce an even bigger, more robust spark than the initial field collapse? ? lol let me read it again here and now before I go on......... ok, i have to tear this apart bit by bit. It is not the reason at all that there is a bigger, stronger spark. way off.....

Ok, bit by bit.. from just the paragraph above from part of his explanation..... First, I have to say that it is not a cut and paste. Thats good. If it were from a reputable source there wouldnt be spelling errors, just sayin.. I make these errors a lot also.. no biggy

"When the swicth first opens there is a certain amount of magentic energy in the core that has to go somewhere. One more time, the very high voltage secondary initiates a plasma spark just like for the simpler circuit. "

Ok, I can ride with that part....

" However, here is where things change. The conducting plasma on the end of the high-voltage coil to ground is a de facto temporary load resistor to ground. The battery sees this "plasma load resistor" through the action of the "direct battery-plasma reaction."

Ok. This "direct battery-plasma reaction" Where do I see a source for that phrase? Id like to see the source. I do a search, it shows these first results in the Pic 1 below.... it has quotation marks as if it were implied as it were a phrase from some other source, or is it just a new phrase you made up??? If so..

"This step-up transformer only exists while the plasma burn is taking place."

Ok I can roll with that one also. If there is no load on the sec other than when the spark is live, then transformer 'reactions" between the prim and sec is not involved, yet.

"The battery is across the primary (with the capacitor in series). The "plasma resistor" is across the seondary. Since it is a high-voltage step-up transformer, the impedance of the "plasma resistor" is very low from the perspective of the primary and thus the battery, perhaps less than one ohm. "

The plasma resistor less than one ohm is 'perhaps' speculation, but we will ride with that for you.

" Therefore, the battery starts pumping current into the primary and adding magnetic energy to the ignition coil core. That magnetic energy is output via the high voltage coil into the "plasma resistor."

Pumping?? Through the .14uf cap? From a 12v source, through the .14uf cap, the primary is getting pumped due to the sec action of powering the load???Before I show the scope shots, tell me something. What do you think the max peak voltages across the cap might be in the time period after the switch opens? More than 12v? Only positive voltage reading? Only a negative voltage reading? A peak to peak AC voltage reading? Ill show you which one it is soon enough. Ide be interested in your answer on this before I do the vid.....

"So, in summary, the inital spark generated by the opening of the switch allows the battery to start directly discharging into the "plasma resistor" via the ignition coil acting like a step-up transformer. This is the "direct battery-plasma reaction."

Ugh. Thats just terrible. If this were to occur and there is no resonant oscillation there as you have been arguing, then it must be just a forward current from start to finish through the cap. And if it is only a forward current during this pumping as you stipulate, again, what voltage would you expect across the cap at the end of this pumping when the spark stops conducting?

Ok. Im finished for now with that portion of your explanation. Lets move on to another portion.... Here is where things go wrong based on the above portion....

"Note that this "direct battery-plasma reaction" would not happen if the capacitor wasn't there to complete the current loop allowing the battery to pump power into the primary. Without the capacitor in place, no battery current can flow, the battery never sees the plasma spark as a "plasma load resistor," and the plasma spark cannot get more energetic.

If what you say is so, when the primary generated field first collapses when the switch is opened, this collapsing field was built on a high input current from the battery through the switch over a longer time period than when the switch is off. Lets say that the field built by either circuit primary, cap or no cap, would be the same strength by the time the switch is to be opened. During the field collapse just after the switch opens, lets just say the spark jumps from the top of the secondary to gnd through the spark plug, just for example. Field collapse, spark to gnd. Now when this so called "direct battery-plasma reaction" begins, and as you say the battery starts 'pumping' the primary through the .14uf cap, the field would now be building and no longer collapsing. That would indicate that the sec spark must have to reverse direction from gnd through the spark plug and to the top the terminal of the coil. Secondly, if the the battery is 'pumping' this DC through the .14uf cap, just how much field power would be had from that? 12v through the .14uf into the primary. That primary will take on heavy currents whether the sec was loaded or not. And if you think 12v potential from the battery through the cap is even enough to induce the hv necessary to even keep the spark alive, then your way off the deep end. You may as well charge the .14uf to 12v and discharge it across the primary and see the nothingness that you get from the secondary by doing so. Because from what you are saying, that is all that will happen during this so called "pumping" More like a micro pip than a pump.

So your story is not adding up at all so far. Not to be rude or evil as you call me, but you dont even know what your talking about and your making up these fantastical names like " "direct battery-plasma reaction" that dont even exist all just to falsely dispute the resonant actions that I claim.

Truly I can stop right here with only taking apart just 2 portions of your alternative explanation to my resonance gain claim, and it is clear you dont get this simple circuit... To me it is simple. Tk said earlier today in his first post there on this, that it needs to be more closely looked at and using the scientific method to really find out what is going on. Well then carry on with all that. I will lay down the cash that says Im correct in my 'resonance gives the gain' here in the end. But I can say one thing at this time. That big project of testing as Tk states is necessary here, will definitely not have the outcome in your favor here MH.

Ok. Let me look over some more of his explanation post to see what more is there to be seen.... Im just doing this on the fly here. I have to work more tonight.....

Ahh, this is one that answers my earlier question......

"As the battery conducts and pumps power into the plasma, it is also pumping power into the capacitor and charging it up. Higher voltages on the capacitor will also lower the current flow. Note once the current in the loop starts flowing the voltage across the capacitor starts at zero volts and starts climbing and the voltage across the coil starts at twelve volts and starts falling. Therefore, initially, 100% of the supplied battery power goes into the "plasma resistor." A short time later when the capacitor has charged to say three volts, then there is nine volts across the primary and 75% of the supplied battery power goes into the primary (and then straight into the "plasma resistor") and 25% of the supplied battery power goes into the capacitor.

Within a short time, the capacitor approaches 12 volts and the battery is pumping almost no power into the primary. Therefore the plasma shuts down and the spark cycle is terminated. The loop returns back to it's intital conditions before the switch was closed; the capacitor having 12 volts across it and the primary not conducting and therefore having is zero volts across it."

Ok. Why would I have asked what voltage level would be in the cap when the spark stops earlier??? Could it have been because of what I have seen in the scope shots? For MH to avoid admitting that there is an ac resonance between the cap and the primary, he needs to instill the thought that 'only' forward DC current actions(constant, variable or pulsed) are happening in the circuit, from one end of the circuit to the other and from the beginning of the operation cycle to the end of the operation cycle. . In order to try and falsify the resonance oscillations I claim exist, he has put together his explanation in a complete and only DC current format. He cant have an AC oscillation in his explanation or he would have to explain why the ac was produced during the circuit operation. And again, this explanation is shot. lets see what else is in there.....

Oh boy.. Some doozies here...

"If the above explanation is correct, then the reason the spark is bigger with the added capacitor is that the capacitor completes the circuit that allows the battery to discharge directly into the plasma via the coil acting as a step-up transformer. The plasma creates a resistor and the battery discharges through this "plasma resistor" until the capacitor reaches a high enough voltage to shut down the "direct battery-plasma reaction." There may be some secondary voltage ringing artifacts observed, but these will have nothing to do with the actual plasma burn. To verify this, a small loop of wire could be carefully placed near the high voltage circuit to act as a pick-up coil that detects the "ticks" on a scope that show the start of the plasma burn and the end of the plasma burn. A second scope channel could look at the voltage increasing on the capacitor. The assumption is that you would see a "plasma start burn tick" just as the capacitor voltage starts to rise and an "plasma end burn tick" when the capacitor voltage approaches 12 volts. If any secondary ringing is observed, the assumption is that the ringing will not be directly related to the "direct battery-plasma reaction."

Firstly, saying the battery is discharging directly into the plasma is not correct in the least. This is what i caught earlier today and the language misled me to take it literally. As you can see in my previous post. Literally or not, that shortcut to writing it all out as to why the battery could see the spark as a load is a bad way of putting it. Its like saying there isnt anything at at all between the battery and the spark itself...

Says there may be some secondary ringing 'artifacts' observed.... Well what do you consider artifacts in that statement? I mean like when we were talking about bifi pancake coils and we were measuring the capacitance of our coils, you were very adamant that that the effects of those increased capacitance's would be so insignificant. My pancake made of flat speaker wire capacitance was .016uf, yet here the .14uf cap is able to allow 'pumping of currents from the 12v battery into the primary. So here we have your description of "There may be some secondary voltage ringing artifacts observed but these will have nothing to do with the actual plasma burn". of course they wouldnt in your explanation, as long as it denies the idea of resonance gain. More on that in a bit...

Then you say this... "To verify this, a small loop of wire could be carefully placed near the high voltage circuit to act as a pick-up coil that detects the "ticks" on a scope that show the start of the plasma burn and the end of the plasma burn.". Maybe it would show 'something'. But what about measuring the primary with the scope? Wouldnt want to do that as that is where I say the oscillation originates when the cap is involved as an LC that can have resonant oscillations!! Remember people, he is deftly against any talk of resonance. He cannot have it in his explanation and the main directive in his creation of the work of word art is that resonance cant be accounted for in order to deny its existence at all costs. I know him. It is the truth. years of these arguments. Making up stuff like all of this to discredit me and others. This is one prime example here in his post. it is all fantasy.. Would anyone here agree? Now. Does it seem like he knows this circuit better than me?? Nobody has to answer. Im just saying it aloud. It is a butcher job to falsely argue my knowledge of this circuit. Clearly.

And lastly we have this statement in the end of his explanation post......

"So, the instant after the switch opens, when you look at the capacitor voltage, you will see it start at zero volts and end at 12 volts. When you look at the primary voltage, you will see it start at 12 volts and end at zero volts. There will be no ringing or resonance, rather there wil just be singular rises and falls of voltage in the primary circuit - a "one shot." This is a classic pulse circuit action."

Again a complete deliberate dump on the possibility of resonant oscillations when the cap and coil join together when the switch opens. Here is the big problem in that narrative. He is neglecting the value of the cap. This isnt some 10uf cap. If we were to measure the inductance of the primary and write it down, and measure the cap and write it down, then do an LC circuit calculation....

So I did 2 things. I measured the primary inductance. 5.79mh Then I shorted the sec, just to be thorough. .9mh The cap is .14uf Run the calculator...

5.79mh and .14uf 5.59khz

.9mh and .14uf 14.17khz

So lets look at something here,,

If it were even an 8 cyl engine, then we calculate how long the switch is open during a 6000rpm run, again to shorten the time factor for MHs advantage. So we get 4 firings per revolution for a 4 stroke motor. So over a minutes time, 6000rpm times 4 sparks per rev is 24000 sparks per min, divided by 60sec would be 400 firings per second. Lets just for sake of argument that the switch is on 50% of the time and off 50% of the time. 400 firings fer second. 50% on time would be 1.25ms closed time and 1.25ms of open time.

At 5.59khz each cycle would occur every .1727ms. And when the sec is loaded, 14.17khz, each cycle would happen every .070ms

So if the switch opens and the battery sees a primary with its inductance reduced due to the loaded secondary, which would lower the inductance of the primary to .9mh, then the time that the battery has to fill the cap is only .07ms, out of the total switch open time of 1.25ms. If someone thinks Im off then please correct me. i am tired here, but i wen over it and I believe it is correct. In my current state of mind

So think about that tiny amount of time the battery has to charge the cap to 12v as Mh says. Is that going to help perpetuate the 'magnetic energy' in anyway of keeping the spark arching like he says? Like I said, charge the .14uf cap to 12v and dump it across the primary. Id feel safe to put my meter across the sec with such tiny input.

Its all wrong for many reasons. So what now MH?? You really have not proved anything with all that. It ignores any possibility of the cap and primary having any resonance ring of which my last part here shows there is enough time for many many oscillations to occur by way of the LC properties presented. Heck I might have thought you might see the cap at least be charged above 12v when the switch opens and your loaded sec makes the batt 'pump' the primary through the cap. But you dont even include any freewheel effect of the inductance to do just that and charge the cap above 12v. Like the whole circuit is damped to the hilt to avoid any oscillations to occur. Its just nuts man. And you slammed me and others here for our understanding of it all and then you present this pile of imaginary fantasy land junk as your claim I am wrong and you are right? What? You did say there, what, "If the above explanation is correct..." if that is you saying it may be wrong, do you want another chance at it? Or are you sticking with it???

Sorry to seem harsh but the way you go about it all and claim for days that you know how it works and I dont, but clearly here you show that you dont know at all what is going on and add imaginary jargon and force the ideas that it can only be dc currents in the system but maybe some artifacts of ringing. Dang dude. Im not impressed in the least. If I didnt know better, eh, but I do. You designed the whole 'story' to be completely depleted of any working AC current actions as if it were all just a big bunch of carbon resistors and that a cap and coil cannot oscillate. Then the incredible .14uf cap that can allow the coil to be pumped buy the battery while the cap only ever reaches 12v at the end of the pump. You know better than that. From past argument experience with you, that .14uf is an insignificant amount of capacitance, but now it seems to be very significant to suit your needs. You said in pm that my explanation of the circuit is a big fail. Same to you bud.

Whew. That was a long session. i feel like I was possessed by Watts here, in terms of making a long post.. Mags

"When the swicth first opens there is a certain amount of magentic energy in the core that has to go somewhere. One more time, the very high voltage secondary initiates a plasma spark just like for the simpler circuit. "

Ok, I can ride with that part, except for.....

You say the magnetic field has to go somewhere when the switch is opened... Here you are neglecting that the collapsing field can induce the primary also. The secondary is not the only coil in the container and the battery with the switch open is no longer in opposition to collapse current flow from the primary as it will have a much higher voltage from the collapse than the battery voltage. This is where the cap gets charged to a higher voltage than 12v. The cap can be rated at up to 630v AC. HMM why is that I wonder?? 630v vs 12v? AC? Strange isnt it? Seems like a strange rating for a cap that would only encounter max voltage provided by the battery as MH says in his explanation...... If there is only the dc currents and no ac or any resonant oscillations, except the little ringing artifacts in the secondary as Mh claims, then why the need for a cap with such ratings?.. Doesnt look good here at all dude, Doesnt look good.. I tell you time and again the I will beat you with your own words. And here you provide a lot of material for me to do so. In the least it shows you do not understand the circuit, the operations of inductance and the operations of the cap per its value and its ratings. In the worst case you do know how it works and try to discredit me and my claims at any cost with inmaginary fake news explanations. And finally you completely neglect the LC circuit that forms when the switch opens. You made big fun of Tesla and insulted his intelligence in Pm and in other threads in the past. You need to go back and let his writings teach you some things.

"When the swicth first opens there is a certain amount of magentic energy in the core that has to go somewhere. One more time, the very high voltage secondary initiates a plasma spark just like for the simpler circuit. "

Ok, I can ride with that part, except for.....

You say the magnetic field has to go somewhere when the switch is opened... Here you are neglecting that the collapsing field can induce the primary also. The secondary is not the only coil in the container and the battery with the switch open is no longer in opposition to collapse current flow from the primary as it will have a much higher voltage from the collapse than the battery voltage. This is where the cap gets charged to a higher voltage than 12v. The cap can be rated at up to 630v AC. HMM why is that I wonder?? 630v vs 12v? AC? Strange isnt it? Seems like a strange rating for a cap that would only encounter max voltage provided by the battery as MH says in his explanation...... If there is only the dc currents and no ac or any resonant oscillations, except the little ringing artifacts in the secondary as Mh claims, then why the need for a cap with such ratings?.. Doesnt look good here at all dude, Doesnt look good.. I tell you time and again the I will beat you with your own words. And here you provide a lot of material for me to do so. In the least it shows you do not understand the circuit, the operations of inductance and the operations of the cap per its value and its ratings. In the worst case you do know how it works and try to discredit me and my claims at any cost with inmaginary fake news explanations. And finally you completely neglect the LC circuit that forms when the switch opens. You made big fun of Tesla and insulted his intelligence in Pm and in other threads in the past. You need to go back and let his writings teach you some things.

Mags

Now, when the primary collapse currents charge the cap to a high voltage(in the hundreds of volts), what will happen then? It will then discharge back into the primary and build the field again with a more robust field build due to the much higher voltage than the battery can provide, and then the field collapses again and charges the cap, then again the cap discharges into the coil, etc etc till the oscillation dies off. That is the effect of the resonant action that keeps the spark going longer and stronger. It is a gain by way of resonance compared to the circuit without the cap.

Now, when the primary collapse currents charge the cap to a high voltage(in the hundreds of volts), what will happen then? It will then discharge back into the primary and build the field again with a more robust field build due to the much higher voltage than the battery can provide, and then the field collapses again and charges the cap, then again the cap discharges into the coil, etc etc till the oscillation dies off. That is the effect of the resonant action that keeps the spark going longer and stronger. It is a gain by way of resonance compared to the circuit without the cap.

Nobody should count their chickens before they're hatched, don't you think? I drew up my explanation for how the ignition circuit works without doing a single Google search. It's simply fun to try to work things out in your head without relying on your computer.

And since my description involved a simple pulse circuit with a "one shot" mode, I could get away with describing the operation in text and have it such that a reader could follow along. You, on the other hand, have done no such thing. You haven't defined the full operation of the circuit, and in your case it really requires a timing diagram. It also requires a description of the start of the "resonance" the voltages and currents, when the plasma burns take place, and so on and so forth. You have done nothing like that and you are no place to claim anything. If you want to be serious, then you have to up your game. Compare my description of the circuit operation with your description which is nothing more than something like sports colour commentary. And your "explanation" is arguably for a circuit operation which is more complicated than mine.

After reading your comments, especially about the high-voltage spec for the condenser, I knew right away my explanation could not be correct. So I finally decided to do some searching. Ordinary searches on ignition circuits yielded nothing. So I searched on "role of the condenser in an ignition system" and I found this:

<<< This information was taken from a Delco Remy electrical equipment book. >>

<<<Technical Talk – Ignition Condensors

Basically the function of a condenser in a coil ignition circuit is to reduce the spark at the contact points as they open in the distributor and thus minimise burning and pitting of the points. Arcing is caused by the effect of self induction in the coil as the points interrupt the flow of current. The resultant collapse of the magnetic field produces a high voltage to be generated in the primary winding which then tends to flow across the points, thus causing burning or pitting. This current flows into the condenser and charges it as the points open the rapid collapse of the magnetic field produces this high voltage in the primary windings, which can be as high as 250 volts. This further charges the condenser and the consequent collapse of the field causes a high voltage to be induced in every turn of both primary and secondary windings. As the secondary winding has about 100 times the number of turns of the primary, the voltage can reach as high as 25000 volts. Normally this voltage is not reached as it is limited by various factors such as point gap, compression, engine revs. Etc. so only sufficient voltage is produced to produce a spark at the plug. As the spark is produced at the plug gap the energy in the coil, stored in the form of magnetic flux, begins to drain from the coil through the secondary circuit thus sustaining the spark for a fraction of a second or several degrees of crankshaft revolution. During this interval the condenser discharges back through the primary winding producing an oscillation of the current flow in the primary circuit for the brief interval that is required for the primary circuit to return to a state of equilibrium. The condenser DOES NOT DISCHARGE UNTIL AFTER the spark has occurred at the spark plug. >>>

So here are my thoughts:

1. Clearly, when the secondary starts to discharge into the plasma, the voltage on the primary goes up and the voltage is not clamped by the battery and the capacitor like I stated.

2. The primary generates a good jolt of EMF during the plasma burn that could charge the capacitor in the area of 250 volts. This means some of the magnetic energy in the core does not get burned off in the plasma, it also charges the capacitor. So if there is even less available energy in the core, how does the spark get stronger?

3. Note that the battery and the strong EMF from the primary are still working together - the voltages add and both the battery and the primary want to induce current to flow in the same direction.

4. With the battery and the primary working together to charge the capacitor, the principles of superposition with respect to what is taking place will happen. With the battery and the primary working together, while the plasma burn takes place in the secondary, the battery is still pumping power into the primary and that power is making the spark more robust. And with higher current flowing in the loop because of the EMF assist from the primary, presumably it means the battery can pump even more power into the primary.

5. This is the Magluvin party-pooper part of the quote, "The condenser DOES NOT DISCHARGE UNTIL AFTER the spark has occurred at the spark plug." So it would appear that any observed LC resonance is only takes place after the burn is over and it has nothing to do with the burn. It's just a boring old ring-down after all the action has taken place to burn off the unused waste energy in the circuit.

6. I believe the fundamental principle of the "direct battery-plasma reaction" still applies, but it is too low-level nitty-gritty technical even for the information quoted in the link. The increased energy in spark has to come from the battery.

Anyway, this was just one link, although it seems credible. More research could always be done.

Nobody should count their chickens before they're hatched, don't you think? I drew up my explanation for how the ignition circuit works without doing a single Google search. It's simply fun to try to work things out in your head without relying on your computer.

And since my description involved a simple pulse circuit with a "one shot" mode, I could get away with describing the operation in text and have it such that a reader could follow along. You, on the other hand, have done no such thing. You haven't defined the full operation of the circuit, and in your case it really requires a timing diagram. It also requires a description of the start of the "resonance" the voltages and currents, when the plasma burns take place, and so on and so forth. You have done nothing like that and you are no place to claim anything. If you want to be serious, then you have to up your game. Compare my description of the circuit operation with your description which is nothing more than something like sports colour commentary. And your "explanation" is arguably for a circuit operation which is more complicated than mine.

After reading your comments, especially about the high-voltage spec for the condenser, I knew right away my explanation could not be correct. So I finally decided to do some searching. Ordinary searches on ignition circuits yielded nothing. So I searched on "role of the condenser in an ignition system" and I found this:

<<< This information was taken from a Delco Remy electrical equipment book. >>

<<<Technical Talk – Ignition Condensors

Basically the function of a condenser in a coil ignition circuit is to reduce the spark at the contact points as they open in the distributor and thus minimise burning and pitting of the points. Arcing is caused by the effect of self induction in the coil as the points interrupt the flow of current. The resultant collapse of the magnetic field produces a high voltage to be generated in the primary winding which then tends to flow across the points, thus causing burning or pitting. This current flows into the condenser and charges it as the points open the rapid collapse of the magnetic field produces this high voltage in the primary windings, which can be as high as 250 volts. This further charges the condenser and the consequent collapse of the field causes a high voltage to be induced in every turn of both primary and secondary windings. As the secondary winding has about 100 times the number of turns of the primary, the voltage can reach as high as 25000 volts. Normally this voltage is not reached as it is limited by various factors such as point gap, compression, engine revs. Etc. so only sufficient voltage is produced to produce a spark at the plug. As the spark is produced at the plug gap the energy in the coil, stored in the form of magnetic flux, begins to drain from the coil through the secondary circuit thus sustaining the spark for a fraction of a second or several degrees of crankshaft revolution. During this interval the condenser discharges back through the primary winding producing an oscillation of the current flow in the primary circuit for the brief interval that is required for the primary circuit to return to a state of equilibrium. The condenser DOES NOT DISCHARGE UNTIL AFTER the spark has occurred at the spark plug. >>>

So here are my thoughts:

1. Clearly, when the secondary starts to discharge into the plasma, the voltage on the primary goes up and the voltage is not clamped by the battery and the capacitor like I stated.

2. The primary generates a good jolt of EMF during the plasma burn that could charge the capacitor in the area of 250 volts. This means some of the magnetic energy in the core does not get burned off in the plasma, it also charges the capacitor. So if there is even less available energy in the core, how does the spark get stronger?

3. Note that the battery and the strong EMF from the primary are still working together - the voltages add and both the battery and the primary want to induce current to flow in the same direction.

4. With the battery and the primary working together to charge the capacitor, the principles of superposition with respect to what is taking place will happen. With the battery and the primary working together, while the plasma burn takes place in the secondary, the battery is still pumping power into the primary and that power is making the spark more robust. And with higher current flowing in the loop because of the EMF assist from the primary, presumably it means the battery can pump even more power into the primary.

5. This is the Magluvin party-pooper part of the quote, "The condenser DOES NOT DISCHARGE UNTIL AFTER the spark has occurred at the spark plug." So it would appear that any observed LC resonance is only takes place after the burn is over and it has nothing to do with the burn. It's just a boring old ring-down after all the action has taken place to burn off the unused waste energy in the circuit.

6. I believe the fundamental principle of the "direct battery-plasma reaction" still applies, but it is too low-level nitty-gritty technical even for the information quoted in the link. The increased energy in spark has to come from the battery.

Anyway, this was just one link, although it seems credible. More research could always be done.

"The 0.22 microfarad 600 volt capacitor, if good, will be a good replacement although, as a rule, just about any magneto or point-type "condenser" will work. From checking some of them, the capacitance ranges from about 0.15 to 0.47 microfarad at around 600 volts.

The oscillation of the coil/condenser circuit when the points open is called a "damped oscillation" or "ringing oscillation". Many years ago, what were called spark transmitters used ringing oscillators tuned to relatively high frequencies to transmit Morse code.

"Ignition noise" is caused by this oscillation as ignition systems act like little transmitters.

Now, do you feel fully informed??(https://www.smokstak.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif) For myself, I feel much better having gotten that off my chest."

Nobody should count their chickens before they're hatched, don't you think? I drew up my explanation for how the ignition circuit works without doing a single Google search. It's simply fun to try to work things out in your head without relying on your computer.

And since my description involved a simple pulse circuit with a "one shot" mode, I could get away with describing the operation in text and have it such that a reader could follow along. You, on the other hand, have done no such thing. You haven't defined the full operation of the circuit, and in your case it really requires a timing diagram. It also requires a description of the start of the "resonance" the voltages and currents, when the plasma burns take place, and so on and so forth. You have done nothing like that and you are no place to claim anything. If you want to be serious, then you have to up your game. Compare my description of the circuit operation with your description which is nothing more than something like sports colour commentary. And your "explanation" is arguably for a circuit operation which is more complicated than mine.

After reading your comments, especially about the high-voltage spec for the condenser, I knew right away my explanation could not be correct. So I finally decided to do some searching. Ordinary searches on ignition circuits yielded nothing. So I searched on "role of the condenser in an ignition system" and I found this:

<<< This information was taken from a Delco Remy electrical equipment book. >>

<<<Technical Talk – Ignition Condensors

Basically the function of a condenser in a coil ignition circuit is to reduce the spark at the contact points as they open in the distributor and thus minimise burning and pitting of the points. Arcing is caused by the effect of self induction in the coil as the points interrupt the flow of current. The resultant collapse of the magnetic field produces a high voltage to be generated in the primary winding which then tends to flow across the points, thus causing burning or pitting. This current flows into the condenser and charges it as the points open the rapid collapse of the magnetic field produces this high voltage in the primary windings, which can be as high as 250 volts. This further charges the condenser and the consequent collapse of the field causes a high voltage to be induced in every turn of both primary and secondary windings. As the secondary winding has about 100 times the number of turns of the primary, the voltage can reach as high as 25000 volts. Normally this voltage is not reached as it is limited by various factors such as point gap, compression, engine revs. Etc. so only sufficient voltage is produced to produce a spark at the plug. As the spark is produced at the plug gap the energy in the coil, stored in the form of magnetic flux, begins to drain from the coil through the secondary circuit thus sustaining the spark for a fraction of a second or several degrees of crankshaft revolution. During this interval the condenser discharges back through the primary winding producing an oscillation of the current flow in the primary circuit for the brief interval that is required for the primary circuit to return to a state of equilibrium. The condenser DOES NOT DISCHARGE UNTIL AFTER the spark has occurred at the spark plug. >>>

So here are my thoughts:

1. Clearly, when the secondary starts to discharge into the plasma, the voltage on the primary goes up and the voltage is not clamped by the battery and the capacitor like I stated.

2. The primary generates a good jolt of EMF during the plasma burn that could charge the capacitor in the area of 250 volts. This means some of the magnetic energy in the core does not get burned off in the plasma, it also charges the capacitor. So if there is even less available energy in the core, how does the spark get stronger?

3. Note that the battery and the strong EMF from the primary are still working together - the voltages add and both the battery and the primary want to induce current to flow in the same direction.

4. With the battery and the primary working together to charge the capacitor, the principles of superposition with respect to what is taking place will happen. With the battery and the primary working together, while the plasma burn takes place in the secondary, the battery is still pumping power into the primary and that power is making the spark more robust. And with higher current flowing in the loop because of the EMF assist from the primary, presumably it means the battery can pump even more power into the primary.

5. This is the Magluvin party-pooper part of the quote, "The condenser DOES NOT DISCHARGE UNTIL AFTER the spark has occurred at the spark plug." So it would appear that any observed LC resonance is only takes place after the burn is over and it has nothing to do with the burn. It's just a boring old ring-down after all the action has taken place to burn off the unused waste energy in the circuit.

6. I believe the fundamental principle of the "direct battery-plasma reaction" still applies, but it is too low-level nitty-gritty technical even for the information quoted in the link. The increased energy in spark has to come from the battery.

Anyway, this was just one link, although it seems credible. More research could always be done.

" 5. This is the Magluvin party-pooper part of the quote, "The condenser DOES NOT DISCHARGE UNTIL AFTER the spark has occurred at the spark plug." So it would appear that any observed LC resonance is only takes place after the burn is over and it has nothing to do with the burn. It's just a boring old ring-down after all the action has taken place to burn off the unused waste energy in the circuit.

Well that 'quote' is not correct in the least.. Firstly you dont know the circuit as you have shown in your explanation and then you think you can party poop me with some dumb quote? That cap and primary charge and discharge with each other during the entire spark time. Gees you just dont quit. And you sure dont get it,

You lost bud. Its the way I have been presenting it for a long time now. lol you think that pooper will save you?

Ok, I gota git. If you are going to reply tonight try and make it one post and ill let it through tomorrow. Wish we could see eye to eye here. But your just dead set on Im(were) wrong and will put up just about anything, even if it is clearly wrong and if that doesnt work you still insist im wrong with some other new inaccurate proofs

Magnetic energy is being drained off from the core during the plasma burn. So both the primary and the secondary will go to a high voltage during the burn-off. Let's just use positive voltages to keep it simple.

So let's say the primary goes to 300 volts.And therefore the secondary wants to go to 3000 volts, but in reality it is being clamped by the burning plasma, and let's say it's clamped at 500 volts.

During the entire draining of the magnetic energy in the core, the magnetic energy is going down, and therefore both the primary and secondary will remain positive, and what their positive potential will be at is based on the rate of the magnetic energy drain-off.

This means that the primary remains high at some potential, and only when the magnetic energy in the core drains to zero does the EMF disappear. With the EMF gone, the charged capacitor does a ring-down with the primary, but the burn is over. So the secondary swings during the ring-down, but it never ignites the plasma.

Now, I am suggesting that during this whole plasma burn process the battery is still pumping magnetic energy into the core, and that's the real source for the bigger and more robust spark. Note that with the primary charging the capacitor, the capacitor no longer "eats" into the voltage drop of the primary relative to the battery as per my original posting. So that implies that the battery puts more power into the core and extends the spark time. It's not easy to make measurements when two things are happening simultaneously but it can be done.

One aspect of uncertainty is that the magnetic energy in the core has to drain to maintain positive potential on the primary, but if the battery is also adding magnetic energy during the burn, what's the deal with the net magnetic energy? Does it still drain off but more slowly?

You don't have a victory, you can do whatever you want to do. Like do a test and look for the plasma on and off ticks and relate the ticks other observations. Make some energy measurements. I am almost 100% certain you are not going to find your barely-defined resonance. But what I am pretty sure you will find is that the battery pumped out X Joules of energy above any beyond the initial energy put into the core and these "above any beyond" X Joules of energy went into the more robust plasma burn. i.e.; the plasma burn without the capacitor in place had Y Joules of energy. The plasma burn with the the capacitor in place had (X+Y) Joules of energy.

You can't just say, "I think there is resonance making the spark bigger," you can't. You actually have to provide a detailed coherent technical explanation and because even a simple circuit can be tricky enough, confirming your hypothesis on the bench is the real way to go. All the indications are that there is no resonance. There is a single continuous plasma burn with no changes in the current direction flowing through the plasma and when the burn is over the capacitor is charged to a certain potential and there is an innocuous ring-down that drains off the unused energy in the capacitor.

<<< Bingo! The condenser is connected across the points. When the points closs, the condenser voltage is clamped at zero, and current from the battery "charges" (via a building magnetic field), the primary side of the coil. When this is complete, the current flowing through the coil is now constant. When the points close ((MH: He means open)), the condenser has two functions. One is to shunt the current which because of the collapsing primary coil sides magnetic field, wants to continue to flow, and would otherwise arc and quickly ruin the points. This probably wouldn't be a danger, because without the condenser, the ignition won't work. The condenser is charged up (voltage wise), by the current flowing from the coil because of the energy stored in the now collapsing magnetic field. This current flow quickly charges the capacitor, and then the capacitor then sends current back to the coil. This continues with each back and forth current swing being smaller. This is called wringing ((MH: ringing)). The first cycle or longer (at a certain frequency), is what induces a corresponding (but higher) voltage and current that creates the spark at the spark plus. So the condenser protects the points from arcing, and allows a rapid and oscillating discharge of the primary coil, and that is necessary for generating a strong spark. Without the condenser, the spark would be weak or not even there. F on the schematic, F on the explanation. >>

So, he thinks there is resonance and is basically confirming what you are saying. So let's examine this more closely.

Would you agree that it's the core of the ignition coil that is the main energy storage component and the capacitor is not a major player in the energy storage? You have made references to the "tiny capacitor" so I think that you would.

This guy says the cap charges up, and then rings down with the primary and you get a more robust spark. If this is true then with your plasma sensor loop connected to your scope channel you would have to see a decaying oscillation. This assumes the plasma stays "lit" the whole time as you get the ring-down that sustains the spark. In other words, the ringing has to be fast enough such that the plasma stays lit the whole time. If the plasma goes off and then on, that represents sharp on-off switching of the current and you should see a series of "ticks" on the plasma sensor loop. Let's assume either way is perfecty viable.

Now here is the problem: If there is a sustained but decreasing level of magnetic energy in the core then any ringing doesn't make sense. The reason I am saying this is as follows: Okay, the cap is charged to it's maximum voltage and it's time to change direction of the current flow. Well, when the cap discharges into the primary, you will simply get magnetic flux cancellation inside the core with "north" annihilating "south." So the capacitor would simply "magnetically short itself out" when it tried to reverse the direction of the current flow and discharge. You would simply reduce the magnetic energy in the core by a chunk.

So what are we left with? The only thing we are left with is that the capacitor can only reverse the current direction and "swing back" after the initial plasma burn is done and the core has been completely drained of magnetic energy. And now you face a problem if you assume that the magnetic core of the ignition coil can store way way more energy than the capacitor, even when the capacitor is charged to 300 volts. And note on the first "swing back" the capacitor has to do several things, 1) pump power into the core that is immediately burned off in the plasma burn, and 2) recharge the battery. It really sounds like it's not going to fly.

So the conundrum is that the capacitor is "tiny" and is only really there to protect the points. It's not supposed to be a big energy storage device to sustain three or five or ten "resonance cycles."

Here is a thought that occurred to me: Is it possible that without the capacitor a hell of a lot of energy is burnt off in the points sparking when they open? And then when you add the capacitor the elimination of the point sparking means you have more magnetic energy in the core and that's the reason you get a bigger spark? I view that as a long-shot but you never know.

I still say the fat spark has to get its extra energy from the battery and that could be confirmed through measurements.

Again - there are lots of problems with the supposed resonance mechanism when you examine it. And right now I am doing the thinking work that you are supposed to be doing. I don't think you are thinking things through.

If you use a nice spring-loaded SPST switch like I said and then get nice consistent small sparks without the cap and nice consistent big fat sparks with the cap, then you can use the sensor coil near the HV output like I said. If you get a decaying sinusoid during the fat sparks, or a series of fast ticks during the fat sparks, that would tell you right away that resonance is in play. If you get a single "on tick" and a single "off tick" that would tell you that the plasma burn is a single unidirectional pulse of current. One more time, you should be thinking of this stuff by yourself.

HOWEVER, the "Automotive Engineering" channel might be much more automotive than electronics and it's possible that the persons that made the clip were just "following the crowd."

Going back to the "current has to keep flowing" angle relative to this clip: Okay, the capacitor charges up to say 300 volts which lets the current flow, and then you are at the limit of the EMF generation and the current flow stops. Why does it stop? It actually stops because the secondary has just "bridged the gap" and ignited the plasma. So then the magnetic core of the ignition coil dumps all its energy into the plasma.

So, suppose we guesstimate the energy status when the trigger point comes and the plasma ignites and there is 300 volts in the capacitor. My guess is this: 90% of the energy is in the ignition coil core, and 10% of the energy is in the capacitor.

So when the core dumps all of its magnetic energy, the clip claims then you have a resonant plasma-firing ring-down. I don't see it, what I see is just the ring down with no plasma generation. So I think the clip is wrong and just "following the crowd." I looked at several other clips that just say the capacitor protects the points and there is no mention of the the big plasma ring down. But I am not convinced that those clips are the real thing either.

As a young boy I was told that the purpose of the condenser was to prevents the pointsfrom burning and that is one feature of Tesla's great circuit.But what the spark plug needs is high voltage to jump the gapand part of that comes from the primary secondary voltage increaseand part of that high voltage comes from the backemf which is greater than thebattery 12v which goes out of the coil and into the condenser where it getsrecycled again and again so the spark will jump the gap and get repeatedin the resonate circuit many times over.

If you hold your fingers on a 12v battery you will not get shocked butif you hold each hand to a broken section of a wire and touch themtogether and they are powering a coil or motor coil when you disconnectthem you will get shocked because of the backemf because its way over 12vfrom the battery.

A very clever and very efficient circuit that works everyday for millions of folksand for millions of sparks...

But the real question is can we get anything extra out of this circuit like the Bedinischool girl circuit other than the excellent spark we want?