(08-04-2013 05:52 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote: Hi, I think you might be getting me and Bucky mixed up. Doesn't matter. Bucky knows a lot more about the ancient Jews than I do. My understanding is that the concept of heaven, as we understand it, was only first talked about by some Jews (not all) in the second century BC...

Now...if we consider PJ's other 2 quotes (from Isaiah and Job)....if read carefully neither are specifically talking about a heaven or hell.

Bucky 1
PJ 0

Thanks for responding! PJ was talking about your quote regarding Hebrews and heaven (I think it was yours) which is why I asked you. The Job quote wasn't a good argument, but Isaiah did allude to a never-ending suffering. For something so important, however, you'd think it would be described beyond a worm that doesn't die. I understand PJ interprets it to mean hell and was curious about the history outside of the bible.

The "worm that doesn't die" is the worm found under burnt up trash heaps. They probably thought that the flames somehow did not cook the worm, when it is obvious, to modern peeps, anyway, that the worm just screwed when shit was burning and returned for the cooked nutrients... or something.

(08-04-2013 05:52 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote: Hi, I think you might be getting me and Bucky mixed up. Doesn't matter. Bucky knows a lot more about the ancient Jews than I do. My understanding is that the concept of heaven, as we understand it, was only first talked about by some Jews (not all) in the second century BC...

Now...if we consider PJ's other 2 quotes (from Isaiah and Job)....if read carefully neither are specifically talking about a heaven or hell.

Bucky 1
PJ 0

Thanks for responding! PJ was talking about your quote regarding Hebrews and heaven (I think it was yours) which is why I asked you. The Job quote wasn't a good argument, but Isaiah did allude to a never-ending suffering. For something so important, however, you'd think it would be described beyond a worm that doesn't die. I understand PJ interprets it to mean hell and was curious about the history outside of the bible.

Perhaps PJ could explain why he thinks the quote from Isaiah is referring to ?heaven or hell.

I think the fact the author refers to "your name" and "your offspring' continuing on, suggests that the person himself is going to be no more.

(08-04-2013 02:36 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote: The whole Old Testament is not like the Jewish bible at all. Only the first 5 books make up Torah. The Talmud (which is a series of Rabbinical writings) is often referred as the second Torah -- but even those aren't necessarily found in the bible. Some of the ideas are lifted from it -- but they're presented with a spin.

No Rabbi would tell someone interested in Judaism to read the Old Testament because the two aren't mutually exclusive, compatible or comparable.

You're mistaken about this. The Jewish Bible (Tanakh) IS the Old Testament, the major difference being that the books are presented in a different order in the two versions. (There are also a few minor, inconsequential differences in the numbering of verses.) Roughly speaking, the Jewish Bible places the prophetic books in the middle; the OT places them at the end. But the books contained in the two versions are the same.

Religious disputes are like arguments in a madhouse over which inmate really is Napoleon.

(06-04-2013 05:23 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: $100 bucks it comes out the poor guy was gay, living in a religious environment, conflicted as hell by all the BS he had been fed since a child.

I'd consider your bet if you were more specific. What time interval are you talking about for this revelation about him being gay comes out? 30 days 90 days, 1 million years. What is an acceptible report? Drudge, CNN, MSNBC, The Advocate?

I'd consider making a bet with you if we escrow the monies(this is an absolute requirement since you have 0 credibility with me) and if you we can come up with specific terms.

(08-04-2013 02:36 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote: The whole Old Testament is not like the Jewish bible at all. Only the first 5 books make up Torah. The Talmud (which is a series of Rabbinical writings) is often referred as the second Torah -- but even those aren't necessarily found in the bible. Some of the ideas are lifted from it -- but they're presented with a spin.

No Rabbi would tell someone interested in Judaism to read the Old Testament because the two aren't mutually exclusive, compatible or comparable.

You're mistaken about this. The Jewish Bible (Tanakh) IS the Old Testament, the major difference being that the books are presented in a different order in the two versions. (There are also a few minor, inconsequential differences in the numbering of verses.) Roughly speaking, the Jewish Bible places the prophetic books in the middle; the OT places them at the end. But the books contained in the two versions are the same.

I'll have to talk to the Rabbi friend I have about it...We were discussing a lot of things...so It's entirely possible my thoughts got jumbled...He loves talking to me anyway...I challenge his thinking (he says -- LOL)

He also said something about it being mostly an oral history (the Torah was written down) and nothing was written down until around 200 CE. Which was after...Christ's alleged death?

Anyway Thanks bunches....

But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

(06-04-2013 05:23 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: $100 bucks it comes out the poor guy was gay, living in a religious environment, conflicted as hell by all the BS he had been fed since a child.

Well, Bucky, it's a possibility, but so far I don't see anything to indicate this was the case. In lieu of evidence to the contrary, I'll take Warren at his word: his son had battled mental illness and depression all his life, and his final act stemmed from that condition.

But thirty years ago there was a parallel case where the gay factor was significant. Oral Roberts's eldest son, Ron, killed himself in 1982. I had met him years before--we were in a class together in graduate school. He was not only brilliant but a delightful guy; his death was a real tragedy.

The following is from an article by another gay member of the Roberts clan, Randy Potts, Oral's grandson. The whole article is worth reading.

Randy Potts Wrote:There were several ghosts that wrecked our marriage, things that happened in the Pentecostal compound I grew up in that came back to haunt me, and one of them was the ghost of a man who shot himself in 1982. That ghost would be the presence, in my mind, of my uncle, Ronald David Roberts, Oral’s eldest son, and at one time the man Oral had hoped would inherit his kingdom. “Ronnie” to the family, he was, by all accounts, one of the most brilliant men anyone who came across his path had ever met; at Booker T. High School he taught English as well as Russian and Chinese. Nancy McDonald, who worked with him at the time, told me he was not only one of the brightest teachers she had ever met but also one of the most loved by his students. In his mid-thirties, Uncle Ronnie was divorced and committed suicide soon thereafter, six months after coming out to Troy Perry, founder of the first gay-friendly congregation in Los Angeles, and four months after he was arraigned in court on prescription drug charges–leaving his two children, ex-wife, and extended family to bear an unbearable burden.

Religious disputes are like arguments in a madhouse over which inmate really is Napoleon.

Bury me with my guns on, so when I reach the other side - I can show him what it feels like to die.
Bury me with my guns on, so when I'm cast out of the sky, I can shoot the devil right between the eyes.