You should assume everyone is trained/deadly with a knife never judge someone by the way they present themselves,

Danny inosanto last time he was in Australia Said he once saw a guy from israel military who showed him how they fight he said the guy sat down one leg forward one leg back with arms by his side, He then told Dan to come at him how ever he wants dan said as soon as he stepped forward the guy grabbed his anle and took him down,

He then showed dan the ring on his thumb had a hook on it explaining in real he would of used the hook tho his achilies to bring him down not his hand.

the person who least looks a threat is almost always the biggest threat.

Notice the placement of the thumb in most the examples you used regardless of the grip.

I don't know how it effects later period arts with small blades but medieval dagger definately suffers if the thumb is not placed correctly.
Maybe it's the length of the weapon or maybe just the way of making the ice pick grip work.

Notice the placement of the thumb in most the examples you used regardless of the grip.

I don't know how it effects later period arts with small blades but medieval dagger definately suffers if the thumb is not placed correctly.
Maybe it's the length of the weapon or maybe just the way of making the ice pick grip work.

In the icepick grip, it's common to use the thumb to "cap" the butt if there is no functional guard to prevent the grip from slipping down. When there is, as is illustrated in these pics, there is no need to "cap" the butt of the pommel and, instead, use the thumb hammer-grip style to enhance the grip on the handle.

When there is, as is illustrated in these pics, there is no need to "cap" the butt of the pommel and, instead, use the thumb hammer-grip style to enhance the grip on the handle.

We used to use that in our medieval dagger work, we've discovered that it made the defences too trivial, the moment the thumb is placed against the handle or the pommel the defender had to work allot harder.

I think this is because it brings in the larger muscles in the upper arm and thus the muscles in the shoulder and back are more involved in the process allowing you to properly apply the force your generating.

Most of the sword like grips in your article seem to be following a similar concept where the thumb is being placed along the handle pointing down the blade, I assume the two are tied to similar if not the same bio-mechanics.

Of course I suppose there are times when the thumb or digits will be placed differently depending on the situation or technique, I know they do that in long sword, I don't see it much in the later arts though.

As I've said though I don't have any experience with modern knife fighting "yet" so my perspective would only really be applicable to dagger.

Very cool article. I have an older book on knife fighting that was a gift from my father and I always have to contain my rage when I get to the sabre vs ice pick part. They introduce the use of the ice pick in Renaissance Europe and how useful it was for them, and then they immediately state that anyone using an ice pick grip is either deranged or a woman or both.

Good summary of the controversy. It always bothered me how Applegate said that a hammer grip can only do an upward stab and an icepick grip can only do a downward stab, since the hammer grip can pretty much follow all the same lines as a foil grip, and the icepick grip can cut one o'clock to six, and stab from 6 to 1.