"Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote in message
news:hnmg37$hst$3@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> "Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:hnlkvj$d7q$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>
>> "Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote in message
>> news:hnk4vb$alo$2@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>
>>> "Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:hnjkol$2uu$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>
>>>> "C Yohman" <chance.yohman@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:878458d1-6479-4e43-93f3-a912b13b2b69@g19g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> Problem: PO300 Pd: Random Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected, PO301
>>>>> Pd: Cylinder 1 Misfire Detected, PO304 Pd Cylinder 4 Misfire Detected
>>>>>
>>>>> Background: On a 60 mile drive from Springvale, ME to Brunswick, ME
>>>>> involving state routes, highway, and city roads my car shuddered and
>>>>> shook intermittently. There were two instances where it did this for
>>>>> an extended period of time and the check engine light flashed, but did
>>>>> not stay on. Once was going up a hill and the other was accelerating
>>>>> to 65 MPH on the highway. Both times I tried to accelerate, but then
>>>>> took my foot off the gas to decelerate and the issue went away.
>>>>>
>>>>> I had the oil changed 2.5 weeks ago. The oil was changed on a
>>>>> Wednesday and I did notice a transient grinding sound (seemed to be
>>>>> coming from underneath the car) the Sunday preceding the oil change.
>>>>> Nothing since the incident. The oil looks plentiful and fine judging
>>>>> by the dipstick. It seems yearly I have a left front caliper issue
>>>>> too, but I don't suspect that because I don't smell anything when I
>>>>> stick my nose next to the wheel and it doesn't feel warm. I have
>>>>> noticed an infrequent burning smell, which could be related, but it's
>>>>> random and very infrequent. One idea my father and I bantered around
>>>>> was my use of overdrive. According to the Owner's Manual on page 88:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Always turn the overdrive switch on for better fuel economy and
>>>>> quieter driving. If the engine coolant temperature is low, the
>>>>> transmission will not shift into overdrive gear even with the
>>>>> overdrive switch on."
>>>>>
>>>>> Now it seems if the temperature is low, then overdrive won't work.
>>>>> From the description, it won't manifest itself. The engine temperature
>>>>> looks normal (a little below the midpoint). It's been cool (versus
>>>>> very cold) this winter in Maine and very rainy. I've always driven
>>>>> with the overdrive on for almost 5 years. On my Dad's old Corolla
>>>>> ('92?), he told me to only engage the overdrive when going over 45-55
>>>>> MPH. Should I be doing this with my Corolla? I don't think so given
>>>>> the above. The car has shaken and shuddered very minorly for a little
>>>>> while now (1-2 months), but it has crescendoed to a dissonant symphony
>>>>> (read: it's frakking annoying!). These codes are pending, but
>>>>> personally I don't want to wait and see the final results as I drive a
>>>>> lot of rough, mountain roads. Nothing that requires high clearance. On
>>>>> another note, does the light not stay solid because the codes are
>>>>> pending? It seems I should be checking the OBCD II port weekly for
>>>>> pending codes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Conclusions: What could be causing this? Is it common? Am I to blame?
>>>>> I can accept that. Also, I need to know, so I can learn from my
>>>>> mistakes. Or, is it the trials and tribulations of a 12-13 year old
>>>>> car? My parents never owned a car more than 10 years. Could it be the
>>>>> oil? The gasoline I use? I fill up at random locations using
>>>>> everything from Shell to Exxon-Mobil to Citgo (today). Engine coolant?
>>>>>
>>>>> How much will it cost to fix? How expensive could it get? I think I
>>>>> can trade it in for $1,175. I think a cylinder misfire would effect
>>>>> the value of the car. If the repair goes over the value of my car,
>>>>> then I rather buy a new vehicle to me (read probably used). I'm
>>>>> inclined to purchase a truck. I'm willing to listen to people who
>>>>> think this is something that can be repaired relatively inexpensively
>>>>> and I'm also receptive to suggestions for a truck (I assume a Toyota
>>>>> bias and that's alright :] ).
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for reading and any suggestions. Cheers.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You have a few unrelated issues. The Subject Line deals with spark
>>>> plugs, plug wires, coil, those sorts of things.
>>>>
>>>> The shaking, as you call it, would be expected if two plugs were
>>>> misfiring on a 4-cylinder motor. The only relationship between the
>>>> misfire and the oil change would be if the oil change technician
>>>> damaged the plug wires, but this is not likely because I don't think he
>>>> sells plugs and wires so he would not have a profit motive to do
>>>> anything to your car. I'm inclined to think you just have worn plugs,
>>>> broken or porrly connected wires, or a combination of the two.
>>>>
>>>> Plugs cost in the neighborhood of $3.00 each, the wires should run to
>>>> $25-ish. I haven't bought wires in a while, but I wouldn't be surprised
>>>> at a price range like that, and if the price turns out to be $12.50,
>>>> then the pleasant surprise would be, well, pleasant. Then, you have a
>>>> distributor cap and a rotor.
>>>>
>>>> Seems to me you could clean this up for less than fifty bucks if you
>>>> know how to put spark plugs in.
>>>>
>>>> IF YOU TRY THIS YOURSELF
>>>> Be sure to put the plug wires in the right places else all Hell will
>>>> break loose. I suggest drawing a diagram that shows where the wires go.
>>>> The "front" of the engine is the end with the belts and pulleys on it,
>>>> the "back" of the engine has the transmission bolted to it. Front and
>>>> Back do not refer the grille and the firewall.
>>>>
>>>> The front of the engine has Cylinder 1, the back has Cylinder 4.
>>>>
>>>> Sketch the distributor -- the plug wires connect to the spark plug at
>>>> one end and the distributor at the other -- noting the location of the
>>>> wire that connects to Cylinder 1. Just my guess, but the firing order
>>>> should be 1 - 3 - 4 - 2, but could be 1 - 4 - 2- 3. Whatever it is, you
>>>> MUST put the new wires into the same places as the old wires.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The OP's car has a distributor-less ignition system. No distributor to
>>> sketch, no cap or rotor to replace.
>>> --
>>>
>>
>>
>> My bad. Sorry. This makes the problem into a potential for a crank
>> sensor, cam sensor, that sort of thing.
>>
>
> Since 1 & 4 share a coil, I'd check the coil.
> --

I'd like to point out that P0300 is RANDOM MULTIPLE MISIFRES, or something
to that effect. Can't take sensors off the table just yet. But swapping the
coils to see if the trouble moves to the other two cylinders is as good a
test as any.

I have misfires on the car we're discussion in the other thread, and the
thought right now is that there is a vacuum leak.

10-19-2012, 09:45 PM

Ray O

Re: PO300 Pd, PO301 Pd, PO304 Pd on a 1998 Toyota Corolla LE

"Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hno62l$o29$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> "Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote in message
> news:hnmg37$hst$3@news.eternal-september.org...
>>
>> "Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:hnlkvj$d7q$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>
>>> "Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote in message
>>> news:hnk4vb$alo$2@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>
>>>> "Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:hnjkol$2uu$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>>
>>>>> "C Yohman" <chance.yohman@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:878458d1-6479-4e43-93f3-a912b13b2b69@g19g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>> Problem: PO300 Pd: Random Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected, PO301
>>>>>> Pd: Cylinder 1 Misfire Detected, PO304 Pd Cylinder 4 Misfire Detected
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Background: On a 60 mile drive from Springvale, ME to Brunswick, ME
>>>>>> involving state routes, highway, and city roads my car shuddered and
>>>>>> shook intermittently. There were two instances where it did this for
>>>>>> an extended period of time and the check engine light flashed, but
>>>>>> did
>>>>>> not stay on. Once was going up a hill and the other was accelerating
>>>>>> to 65 MPH on the highway. Both times I tried to accelerate, but then
>>>>>> took my foot off the gas to decelerate and the issue went away.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I had the oil changed 2.5 weeks ago. The oil was changed on a
>>>>>> Wednesday and I did notice a transient grinding sound (seemed to be
>>>>>> coming from underneath the car) the Sunday preceding the oil change.
>>>>>> Nothing since the incident. The oil looks plentiful and fine judging
>>>>>> by the dipstick. It seems yearly I have a left front caliper issue
>>>>>> too, but I don't suspect that because I don't smell anything when I
>>>>>> stick my nose next to the wheel and it doesn't feel warm. I have
>>>>>> noticed an infrequent burning smell, which could be related, but it's
>>>>>> random and very infrequent. One idea my father and I bantered around
>>>>>> was my use of overdrive. According to the Owner's Manual on page 88:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Always turn the overdrive switch on for better fuel economy and
>>>>>> quieter driving. If the engine coolant temperature is low, the
>>>>>> transmission will not shift into overdrive gear even with the
>>>>>> overdrive switch on."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now it seems if the temperature is low, then overdrive won't work.
>>>>>> From the description, it won't manifest itself. The engine
>>>>>> temperature
>>>>>> looks normal (a little below the midpoint). It's been cool (versus
>>>>>> very cold) this winter in Maine and very rainy. I've always driven
>>>>>> with the overdrive on for almost 5 years. On my Dad's old Corolla
>>>>>> ('92?), he told me to only engage the overdrive when going over 45-55
>>>>>> MPH. Should I be doing this with my Corolla? I don't think so given
>>>>>> the above. The car has shaken and shuddered very minorly for a little
>>>>>> while now (1-2 months), but it has crescendoed to a dissonant
>>>>>> symphony
>>>>>> (read: it's frakking annoying!). These codes are pending, but
>>>>>> personally I don't want to wait and see the final results as I drive
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> lot of rough, mountain roads. Nothing that requires high clearance.
>>>>>> On
>>>>>> another note, does the light not stay solid because the codes are
>>>>>> pending? It seems I should be checking the OBCD II port weekly for
>>>>>> pending codes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Conclusions: What could be causing this? Is it common? Am I to blame?
>>>>>> I can accept that. Also, I need to know, so I can learn from my
>>>>>> mistakes. Or, is it the trials and tribulations of a 12-13 year old
>>>>>> car? My parents never owned a car more than 10 years. Could it be the
>>>>>> oil? The gasoline I use? I fill up at random locations using
>>>>>> everything from Shell to Exxon-Mobil to Citgo (today). Engine
>>>>>> coolant?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How much will it cost to fix? How expensive could it get? I think I
>>>>>> can trade it in for $1,175. I think a cylinder misfire would effect
>>>>>> the value of the car. If the repair goes over the value of my car,
>>>>>> then I rather buy a new vehicle to me (read probably used). I'm
>>>>>> inclined to purchase a truck. I'm willing to listen to people who
>>>>>> think this is something that can be repaired relatively inexpensively
>>>>>> and I'm also receptive to suggestions for a truck (I assume a Toyota
>>>>>> bias and that's alright :] ).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for reading and any suggestions. Cheers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You have a few unrelated issues. The Subject Line deals with spark
>>>>> plugs, plug wires, coil, those sorts of things.
>>>>>
>>>>> The shaking, as you call it, would be expected if two plugs were
>>>>> misfiring on a 4-cylinder motor. The only relationship between the
>>>>> misfire and the oil change would be if the oil change technician
>>>>> damaged the plug wires, but this is not likely because I don't think
>>>>> he sells plugs and wires so he would not have a profit motive to do
>>>>> anything to your car. I'm inclined to think you just have worn plugs,
>>>>> broken or porrly connected wires, or a combination of the two.
>>>>>
>>>>> Plugs cost in the neighborhood of $3.00 each, the wires should run to
>>>>> $25-ish. I haven't bought wires in a while, but I wouldn't be
>>>>> surprised at a price range like that, and if the price turns out to be
>>>>> $12.50, then the pleasant surprise would be, well, pleasant. Then, you
>>>>> have a distributor cap and a rotor.
>>>>>
>>>>> Seems to me you could clean this up for less than fifty bucks if you
>>>>> know how to put spark plugs in.
>>>>>
>>>>> IF YOU TRY THIS YOURSELF
>>>>> Be sure to put the plug wires in the right places else all Hell will
>>>>> break loose. I suggest drawing a diagram that shows where the wires
>>>>> go. The "front" of the engine is the end with the belts and pulleys on
>>>>> it, the "back" of the engine has the transmission bolted to it. Front
>>>>> and Back do not refer the grille and the firewall.
>>>>>
>>>>> The front of the engine has Cylinder 1, the back has Cylinder 4.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sketch the distributor -- the plug wires connect to the spark plug at
>>>>> one end and the distributor at the other -- noting the location of the
>>>>> wire that connects to Cylinder 1. Just my guess, but the firing order
>>>>> should be 1 - 3 - 4 - 2, but could be 1 - 4 - 2- 3. Whatever it is,
>>>>> you MUST put the new wires into the same places as the old wires.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The OP's car has a distributor-less ignition system. No distributor to
>>>> sketch, no cap or rotor to replace.
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My bad. Sorry. This makes the problem into a potential for a crank
>>> sensor, cam sensor, that sort of thing.
>>>
>>
>> Since 1 & 4 share a coil, I'd check the coil.
>> --
>
>
> I'd like to point out that P0300 is RANDOM MULTIPLE MISIFRES, or something
> to that effect. Can't take sensors off the table just yet. But swapping
> the coils to see if the trouble moves to the other two cylinders is as
> good a test as any.
>
> I have misfires on the car we're discussion in the other thread, and the
> thought right now is that there is a vacuum leak.
>
>

The random multiple misfires code comes up because there are misfires in
more than 1 cylinder. Swapping the coil will cause misfires in cylinders 2
& 3 in addition to P0300.

For your BMW, the correct way to determine whether or not there is a vacuum
leak is with a vacuum gauge. A vacuum leak can cause a lean misfire, but
then the O2 sensor voltages would also indicate a lean condition.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

10-19-2012, 09:45 PM

aarcuda69062

Re: PO300 Pd, PO301 Pd, PO304 Pd on a 1998 Toyota Corolla LE

In article <hnolse$9pd$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
"Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote:
> For your BMW, the correct way to determine whether or not there is a vacuum
> leak is with a vacuum gauge.

There are better ways.
> A vacuum leak can cause a lean misfire, but
> then the O2 sensor voltages would also indicate a lean condition.

He had P1188 and P1189 codes stored, both are "fuel trim above +20%"
codes. IOWs, lean.

10-19-2012, 09:45 PM

Jeff Strickland

Re: PO300 Pd, PO301 Pd, PO304 Pd on a 1998 Toyota Corolla LE

"aarcuda69062" <nonelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:nonelson-5ECD9E.19421116032010@nothing.attdns.com...
> In article <hnolse$9pd$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
> "Ray O" <rokigawa@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote:
>
>> For your BMW, the correct way to determine whether or not there is a
>> vacuum
>> leak is with a vacuum gauge.
>
> There are better ways.
>
>> A vacuum leak can cause a lean misfire, but
>> then the O2 sensor voltages would also indicate a lean condition.
>
> He had P1188 and P1189 codes stored, both are "fuel trim above +20%"
> codes. IOWs, lean.

Actually, P1188 and P1189 translate to FUEL CONTROL. That's all. No
indication of the direction of degree. I also have P0170 and P0173 that
translate to FUEL TRIM, again with no indication as to direction or degree.

We'll see tomorrow, but the working theory now is a vacuum leak.

Were it not for the Check light and the codes that don't give enough
information, there would be no reason to suspect anything was wrong with the
car.

What do you think fuel control is? Seriously, do you have the slightest
clue what that term means?
> That's all. No
> indication of the direction of degree.

Bull shit. BMW defines the set criteria for both codes as ">+20% for
>65 seconds"
For the 7th grade Algebra challenged that reads as; "greater than 20
percent for greater than 65 seconds."
> I also have P0170 and P0173 that
> translate to FUEL TRIM, again with no indication as to direction or degree.

The P0170 and P0173 are just generic versions of the BMW specific P1188
and P1189 (so much for your "protect the masses and make all code
definitions the same to save money and wild goose chasing)
The P0130 and P0150 codes could be either a circuit problem (open or
shorted) or voltage problems (min voltage/max voltage), so if a vacuum
leak is causing fuel trim to max out, is it possible, just maybe that
it's severe enough that O2 voltage would be extremely low (i.e., codes
P0130 and P0150)?
Fully spelled out in Table 26 of BMWs diagnostic.

Looks like you just couldn't apply a little logic...
> We'll see tomorrow, but the working theory now is a vacuum leak.

Gee, ya think? Maxed fuel trims and rolling misfire codes at idle?
> Were it not for the Check light and the codes that don't give enough
> information, there would be no reason to suspect anything was wrong with the
> car.

Do you have any idea how many mechanics hear that exact same song each
and every day?