Most rookies suck defensively. Carter was horrendous, now look where he's at.

I think Carter was at least passable, he did alright his 1st year (remember he had mono for a while I believe) and then the 2nd year was a trainwreck for everyone and didn't he spend some time on a line with Afanasenkov who was on pace for like a -40?

I don't know if Nodl has the scoring to be a reliable top-6 player, I'm hoping to see him develop into one of those speedy, defensively strong 3rd liners who can put up 30-35 points.

I think Carter was at least passable, he did alright his 1st year (remember he had mono for a while I believe) and then the 2nd year was a trainwreck for everyone and didn't he spend some time on a line with Afanasenkov who was on pace for like a -40?

I don't know if Nodl has the scoring to be a reliable top-6 player, I'm hoping to see him develop into one of those speedy, defensively strong 3rd liners who can put up 30-35 points.

Carter was a BAD defensive player his first couple of seasons, which was one of the primary reasons I was such an advocate of bumping him to the wing. I still think he needs to be more physical defensively, but he's improved vastly positionally, etc.

Nodl very well may turn into that, but I don't think it should be surprising in the slightest that a rookie struggled defensively. You need to learn to play at a faster level, against bigger and stronger competition, and there are no weak links out there. It's a learning curve that all young players need to go through, and the primary reason they are rarely put in positions where they're being relied upon defensively.

Carter was a BAD defensive player his first couple of seasons, which was one of the primary reasons I was such an advocate of bumping him to the wing. I still think he needs to be more physical defensively, but he's improved vastly positionally, etc.

Nodl very well may turn into that, but I don't think it should be surprising in the slightest that a rookie struggled defensively. You need to learn to play at a faster level, against bigger and stronger competition, and there are no weak links out there. It's a learning curve that all young players need to go through, and the primary reason they are rarely put in positions where they're being relied upon defensively.

I really don't agree with this. Carter put up a solid +/- in 05-06 basically on 3rd line minutes with Umberger as a linemate and I personally don't remember him being BAD as much as just a rookie who wasn't a guy you wanted playing big defensive minutes. Remember that team wasn't all that great defensively, outside of an iffy d-corps, you had guys like Umberger, Branko, Nedved, Savage, Sim, and even Sami K who was past his best at that point.

I pretty much give everyone a pass on 06-07 as well considering the trainwreck of a team with an incompetent coach.

I think Nodl has potential, I was just disappointed that he was someone who played in a more defensive league than the OHL, had quite a few AHL games under his belt, and just looked completely unprepared. I think he'll probably be alright, just saying I was a bit disappointed.

I really don't agree with this. Carter put up a solid +/- in 05-06 basically on 3rd line minutes with Umberger as a linemate and I personally don't remember him being BAD as much as just a rookie who wasn't a guy you wanted playing big defensive minutes. Remember that team wasn't all that great defensively, outside of an iffy d-corps, you had guys like Umberger, Branko, Nedved, Savage, Sim, and even Sami K who was past his best at that point.

+/- to the rescue!

He was bad...which leads directly to...

Quote:

I pretty much give everyone a pass on 06-07 as well considering the trainwreck of a team with an incompetent coach.

One of the reasons that was a trainwreck of a team was because Carter and Umberger were a trainwreck defensively down the middle.

Quote:

I think Nodl has potential, I was just disappointed that he was someone who played in a more defensive league than the OHL, had quite a few AHL games under his belt, and just looked completely unprepared. I think he'll probably be alright, just saying I was a bit disappointed.

I think Nodl has some potential too, but being disappointed that a rookie has struggles defensively is like being shocked the sun rose this morning.

See, I don't think so. I don't remember being Carter a big problem defensively and his plus-minus bears that out. It's called evidence, if I said he was okay defensively and he was a -20, then the evidence wouldn't support me. I think he was obviously protected, but he wasn't a liability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester

One of the reasons that was a trainwreck of a team was because Carter and Umberger were a trainwreck defensively down the middle.

If you want to start handing out blame for that season, it goes much, much farther than Carter and Umberger, you could even criticize Richards for that year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester

I think Nodl has some potential too, but being disappointed that a rookie has struggles defensively is like being shocked the sun rose this morning.

That's why young D are such a problem.

I don't think there's any harm in being disappointed a bit, it's not like we're all going to start booing him, I would have preferred he did a bit better and he didn't, so I'm a bit disappointed, not the end of the world here.

See, I don't think so. I don't remember being Carter a big problem defensively and his plus-minus bears that out. It's called evidence, if I said he was okay defensively and he was a -20, then the evidence wouldn't support me. I think he was obviously protected, but he wasn't a liability.

Evidence based in a statistic that is utterly devoid of context to the point of being useless with supplying that context. As a rookie, Carter was heavily protected in the lineup as far as who he was out on the ice against. If you go back and watch him actually play those years, he was not a good defensive player.

One of the most important aspects of his development over the last two years is that he's gone from being a bad defensive player to a good defensive player. He wasn't passable...he was bad. His poor defense directly contributed to us being the worst team in the league, just as Nitty's poor goaltending did.

Quote:

If you want to start handing out blame for that season, it goes much, much farther than Carter and Umberger, you could even criticize Richards for that year.

And I have. Richards, Carter, and, to a lesser extent, Umberger were not ready for the roles they were asked to play that season. Richards wasn't ready offensively, and Carter wasn't ready defensively or offensively to be a leading forward for a competitive NHL team.

However, that isn't their fault. They were young players having too much asked of them too early in their careers. Just as being disappointed in a rookie struggling defensively isn't all that fair. It isn't fair to set high expectations and then be upset when players don't meet them...perhaps one should re-evaluate their expectations.

Nodl probably needs another full year with the Phantoms with call ups here and there when warranted. I thought he did ok when first recalled but as the season wore on so did he. I'd rather see him have a dominant year in the AHL before projecting his long-term future with the Flyers. I'd much rather seem them just leave him alone down there.

Evidence based in a statistic that is utterly devoid of context to the point of being useless with supplying that context. As a rookie, Carter was heavily protected in the lineup as far as who he was out on the ice against. If you go back and watch him actually play those years, he was not a good defensive player.

One of the most important aspects of his development over the last two years is that he's gone from being a bad defensive player to a good defensive player. He wasn't passable...he was bad. His poor defense directly contributed to us being the worst team in the league, just as Nitty's poor goaltending did.

I don't get what you are saying here. Carter held his own in a limited role, then got thrown 19 minutes per night (7 more minutes than the year before) and had a lot of trouble.

Nodl got a limited role and finished at -15. I think that Carter was fine defensively for his role. Nodl essentially had a very similar role (3rd line minutes with decent linemates) and didn't do fine.

Not a huge problem with that, I was just disappointed, had hoped for better, again, not the end of the world.

I don't get what you are saying here. Carter held his own in a limited role, then got thrown 19 minutes per night (7 more minutes than the year before) and had a lot of trouble.

Nodl got a limited role and finished at -15. I think that Carter was fine defensively for his role. Nodl essentially had a very similar role (3rd line minutes with decent linemates) and didn't do fine.

Not a huge problem with that, I was just disappointed, had hoped for better, again, not the end of the world.

What do you mean you don't get what I'm saying? Carter, as a rookie, was heavily protected and playing on a team with a smart defensive coach. Nodl, as a rookie, was playing for a team that played an up-and-down shootout game -- and I think suffered some rotten luck, which is why using +/- the way you are is a waste of breath. Nodl is also a wing, which means his defensive impact is significantly less than that of the center and defenseman he is playing with.

Nodl isn't good defensively, but just quoting +/- as if it is gospel doesn't prove that, nor does a positive +/- vindicate a poor defensive player.

Nodl probably needs another full year with the Phantoms with call ups here and there when warranted. I thought he did ok when first recalled but as the season wore on so did he. I'd rather see him have a dominant year in the AHL before projecting his long-term future with the Flyers. I'd much rather seem them just leave him alone down there.

You hit it right on the dot. Leave him in the AHL for the full season. Don't call him up, leave him there to dominate for the year. It makes no sense to call up Nodl if he's only going to play 8 to 11 minutes a night. He's better off playing 18 to 20 minutes a night in all situations.

I really think that when it comes to the "third" line in Philadelphia this year, I think the names Maroon and Laliberte are going to get thrown around a bit as potential players to fill spots.

The Philadelphia Flyers biggest hole remains between the pipes. Pending unrestricted free agents Martin Biron and Antero Niittymaki didnít play the consistent brand of hockey that the Flyers were looking for in 2008-09. So much so that it appears both of them will be paging through the NHLís classified ads on July 1. The Flyers have already signed goalies Ray Emery and Johan Backlund. GM Paul Holmgren finds himself once again placing bets on some against-the-odds horses.

The Flyers could stand to add another top-notch defenseman to the mix and seem likely to pursue one throughout the offseason. After Kimmo Timonen and Braydon Coburn (who had something of an average season himself), the quality drops off considerably. Luckily for Philadelphia, the defensive cupboard is far from empty. Ryan Parent and Luca Sbisa will be able to take on more minutes next season and will alleviate any hand-forcing moves from management. The speed of the blueliners as a whole could stand to improve, however.

The Flyers also expect big things from right wing James van Riemsdyk, who was taken second overall behind Patrick Kane in 2007, after the Flyers lost a coin flip to the Chicago Blackhawks.

Holmgren said it is "unlikely" van Riemsdyk, 20, will make the Flyers out of training camp.

"I don't want to put him in a position where he's not ready," Holmgren said. "Last year at this time, I expected Claude (Giroux) to make our team, but I'm not thinking the same way with James. I don't expect him to make our team, but it would be great if he did."

Homer has the right attitude. I tend to like putting prospects in minors to develop them, as I would do this year with Sbisa too.

However, JVR is the type of big kid who could fill out a bit over the summer and be a monster in camp - and make the team outright. If he doesn't force them to keep him, he goes to Adirondack for seasoning.

JVR was described as SOFT by CSN. News around 10am today July 02. No kidding.

What do I say? WTF did you expect? Where did he play, for what team? That pick better not be a bust.

You can watch the Boruk stand up, in which he cites a Flyers' org. source saying he's soft mentally and physically, and you can watch JVR on a panel discussion in which one of the morons asks him about making the team vs. going back to college for couple more years (well informed? NOT)....

I don't think this is an issue. He's not going to be a bust, he's a very skilled kid who has good hockey sense, size and speed. If he doesn't make the Flyers out of camp, I'm sure we'll see him at some point this year.

Honestly, thats what I think. Flyers have a player but I did not like where he played for the past few years. I do not like that league, period. Maybe because I think OHL and QMJHL or even WHL are better leagues. A lot of fans like NCAA, I do not.

I also think he is bigger and a faster then Bobby Ryan, his stick work is much better but his shot a bit weak, he has better moves, soft hands, he drives the net, he is much better all around player. He needs one very solid year in AHL and a few games 5-6 in the NHL next year. He must be hockey hungry, I did not see that part in his last WJC performence. He is too relaxed, I thought? Maybe thats a plus but I honestly woudl like to see intensity and hunger from future power forward. We'll see.

Flyers will not rush him which is good. Skill is there but they need to monitor him. I can not wait to see him play.