We almost had a decision on the exact point in the headline here in Massachusetts. Police executing a warrant found an S&M party. One woman was spanking another with a wooden spoon. Under state law consent is not a defense to harmful battery. If precedent held, the spanking was assault and battery. Charges were dropped before trial.

ZAZ:We almost had a decision on the exact point in the headline here in Massachusetts. Police executing a warrant found an S&M party. One woman was spanking another with a wooden spoon. Under state law consent is not a defense to harmful battery. If precedent held, the spanking was assault and battery. Charges were dropped before trial.

This is why I hate special exemptions for people. Under that law, without the obvious exemption that exists somewhere, practicing the trade of "barber" is battery.

mediablitz:Mentat: mediablitz: Nothing tells a child violence is wrong like using violence. That should teach her to stay out of violent gangs!

It sure as hell taught me that.

It tuaght me to be violent. It took until I was in my 30's to overcome the "old school" shiat that being beaten as a child instilled.

I'm glad I didn't pass that retarded shiat on to my kids. My dad died a couple weeks ago, and his biggest regret was using violence to "discipline" his kids.

If you can't out think a kid, you are the loser.

If that was your dads biggest regret then he was abusing you and not just spanking you. I was spanked with wooden spoons and I'm about the calmest person around, never got into any fights, never made fun of people in school and graduated near the top in my class.

It is tough. I am committed to disciplining my children without spanking. I believe that they can be taught through other means, and I pride myself on coming up with creative ways of correcting behavior. For example, if you want to get the attention of my eight year old, delete his Wii saved games. I only had to do it once and now just the threat gets him to change behavior.

On the other hand, sometimes I just want to smack the shiat out of them.

"Nothing in the record suggests the mother should have known she was inflicting bruises" - bruises are pretty obvious, caused unusual shading on the skin very rapidly. What's her excuse for not noticing? Let me guess, the stupid mom let her daughter keep her clothes on. Another case where misguided kindless leads to larger problems.

The court doesn't approve it, the legislature does. The court just finds that the conduct at issue could have been within the exception to the statute intended by the legislature.

"Foremost of the considerations leading us to this conclusion is the Legislature's explicit acknowledgment of a parental disciplinary prerogative in conjunction with its adoption of CANRA in 1980. In an uncodified statement of intention, the Legislature declared that "the reporting of child abuse and any subsequent action by a child protective agency involves a delicate balance between the right of parents to control and raise their own children by imposing reasonable discipline and the social interest in the protection and safety of the child. Therefore, it is the intent of the Legislature to require the reporting of child abuse which is of a serious nature and is not conduct which constitutes reasonable parental discipline." (Stats. 1980, ch. 1071, § 5, p. 3425.)"

Also, the court didn't throw it out because this was definitely not child abuse. The court threw out the lower ruling because the lower court "erred in categorically rejecting Mother's assertion that the conduct reported as child abuse constituted a reasonable attempt to discipline her child." In other words, for refusing to consider that parental discipline (among other things) could have been a defense.

Finally, there were numerous other problems with this case. Not the least of which is that the agency's reporting of the child's testimony is contradicted by the child. Also, the child was not allowed to testify at the hearing because "the hearing officer said that he was not inclined to allow Daughter to testify, suggesting that it would be "pretty traumatic." The appellate court found that this was an abuse of discretion "There is no evidence in this record that Daughter would have suffered distress of any kind or degree-let alone "trauma"-from testifying at the hearing. The only evidence before the hearing officer was to the opposite effect. The representative of the Department at the hearing told the officer that she had encountered Daughter outside the hearing room and that Daughter was "very eager" to talk to him."

The case was poorly handled by the agency, and the hearing officer failed to follow the statutes or enforce proper procedure. The court was absolutely correct in tossing this case and making them either dismiss the complaint or do it again correctly.

mediablitz:Mentat: mediablitz: Nothing tells a child violence is wrong like using violence. That should teach her to stay out of violent gangs!

It sure as hell taught me that.

It tuaght me to be violent. It took until I was in my 30's to overcome the "old school" shiat that being beaten as a child instilled.

I'm glad I didn't pass that retarded shiat on to my kids. My dad died a couple weeks ago, and his biggest regret was using violence to "discipline" his kids.

If you can't out think a kid, you are the loser.

Hooray!

Another thread where folks can project their anecdotal experiences onto others in the name of holier-than-thou soapbox protests! All the while completely ignoring that kids who were spanked turned out just fine, kids who were grounded turned out to be farking psychopaths, and vice versa! It's almost like everyone is different!

mediablitz:Mentat: mediablitz: Nothing tells a child violence is wrong like using violence. That should teach her to stay out of violent gangs!

It sure as hell taught me that.

It tuaght me to be violent. It took until I was in my 30's to overcome the "old school" shiat that being beaten as a child instilled.

I'm glad I didn't pass that retarded shiat on to my kids. My dad died a couple weeks ago, and his biggest regret was using violence to "discipline" his kids.

If you can't out think a kid, you are the loser.

There are other ways to punish a child than with physical pain. But if you think that every kind of problem with a child can be solved by just talking to them, then you, sir are the loser. But more importantly, in the long run, your kids are.

TNel:If that was your dads biggest regret then he was abusing you and not just spanking you. I was spanked with wooden spoons and I'm about the calmest person around, never got into any fights, never made fun of people in school and graduated near the top in my class.

In other words, you were too scared of authority to defy it. I'm willing to bet there was at least one situation where you SHOULD have defied authority, but you had all the defiance beaten out of you at that point.

/sick of all the "I was beaten and I turned out fine" arguments//especially when a closer examination reveals that the person saying it did NOT turn out fine at all

drjekel_mrhyde:In before the childless people come in with their opinion.

The opinions of childless people are just as valid as others.

You don't have to have the disease to be a doctor or nurse.

A person with an idiotic theory on raising your children is called your parent. Unless, of course, it's your child.

Speaking of children, those of us who were once children ourselves sometimes remember what worked and what didn't.

Excess in anything is bad. Too much violence, too much yelling, too much inconsistency, too much sweetness and light, too much yapping without enough slapping, it's all bad.

Even too much reason and consistency is bad. It doesn't prepare children to deal with other children.

Some basic rules:

No hitting about the head. Brains don't improve with beating.

Be consistent. Lay down the rules, explain what will happen when they are broken, and then do it. Children will test everything, including your patience. Good punishment is like good taxation: the taxpayer needs to know that the tax is fair more than anything. As Adam Smith says, a good tax should be just and transparent:

Who pays?Where do they pay?When do they pay?How much do they pay?

These rules apply to taxes and to punishment, although taxes are nothing like punishment enough for the average landlord, worker, business person, or professional.

Be fair and be square. That's what parents are for. Also, it helps to be a bit nuts, but you knew that before you became a parent.

Children are adaptive organisms. There's no one way, but children will adapt to you, so don't be a complete a-hole as a parent or even as an innocent bystander.

ciberido:mediablitz: Mentat: mediablitz: Nothing tells a child violence is wrong like using violence. That should teach her to stay out of violent gangs!

It sure as hell taught me that.

It tuaght me to be violent. It took until I was in my 30's to overcome the "old school" shiat that being beaten as a child instilled.

I'm glad I didn't pass that retarded shiat on to my kids. My dad died a couple weeks ago, and his biggest regret was using violence to "discipline" his kids.

If you can't out think a kid, you are the loser.

There are other ways to punish a child than with physical pain. But if you think that every kind of problem with a child can be solved by just talking to them, then you, sir are the loser. But more importantly, in the long run, your kids are.

It is much easier to contradict things you pretend they said than what they actually said, isn't it?

My mother used to use corporal punishment on me and my brothers when we were kids. More often than not it would be a whack with a wooden spoon. My youngest brother managed to put an end to it when he was quite young, maybe 4 or 5, I can't remember. He was being obnoxious one day and Mama macaroni!! brandished the spoon and said "You wanna feel my spoon?" Junior macaroni!!, without a word, reached up and began feeling the spoon with his hand. Mama macaroni!! busted out laughing, and never used the spoon again.

/CSB//just wanted to use the standard Farkism of referring to family members by incorporating one's handle, which is not easy as I am not married and have no kids

Saborlas:TNel: If that was your dads biggest regret then he was abusing you and not just spanking you. I was spanked with wooden spoons and I'm about the calmest person around, never got into any fights, never made fun of people in school and graduated near the top in my class.

In other words, you were too scared of authority to defy it. I'm willing to bet there was at least one situation where you SHOULD have defied authority, but you had all the defiance beaten out of you at that point.

/sick of all the "I was beaten and I turned out fine" arguments//especially when a closer examination reveals that the person saying it did NOT turn out fine at all

But I thought that people that were spanked were prone to violence? Now it's the opposite? So I should pick on retarded people like everyone else in school? So I should pick fights with kids just because? Crazy world you live in.

I'm no expert but I wouldn't doubt that spanking when done appropriately would prevent the rash of ADD and ADHD "dibathility" cases later in life. Spare the rod and spoil the doc-shoppin' layabout SSI recipient.

Those aren't disabilities, they're character flaws that could have been easily corrected if the principal's hands weren't tied.

AkaDad:I always punished my daughter by taking away her favorite things and she eventually figured out it was better to be good. No, you cannot have a picture of her or her phone number.

And if their favorite item was expensive you end up giving it back so the punishment was them losing said item for a day or so? What does that teach it's just a awaiting game that they will then move onto the next item to play with.

TNel:AkaDad: I always punished my daughter by taking away her favorite things and she eventually figured out it was better to be good. No, you cannot have a picture of her or her phone number.

And if their favorite item was expensive you end up giving it back so the punishment was them losing said item for a day or so? What does that teach it's just a awaiting game that they will then move onto the next item to play with.

No, it was usually for a week or two and it showed her that her actions had consequences.

I remember I would be like 6, eating cereal, on a stool. You know, porcelain bowl, metal spoon. A six year old is going to make noise.

Maybe I would be talking to loud, maybe the spoon would make too much noise against the bowl, but I could hear the grumbling footsteps of my father coming down the stairs. My brother and I would look at each other in terror.

As my dad approached, I would clutch my legs to the stool, but it was for naught. My dad separated me from the stool, and hung me by my ankle. He would deliver two swift shots to my bottom, and head back upstairs.

The Aristocrats. Well, no, we weren't aristocrats, but the house we lived in would easily sell for about 1.5 million bucks today.

Saborlas:TNel: If that was your dads biggest regret then he was abusing you and not just spanking you. I was spanked with wooden spoons and I'm about the calmest person around, never got into any fights, never made fun of people in school and graduated near the top in my class.

In other words, you were too scared of authority to defy it. I'm willing to bet there was at least one situation where you SHOULD have defied authority, but you had all the defiance beaten out of you at that point.

/sick of all the "I was beaten and I turned out fine" arguments//especially when a closer examination reveals that the person saying it did NOT turn out fine at all

Thanks for the input, Dr. Phil.

I'd offer evidence to the contrary, but you're obviously too deeply entrenched in your own opinion to consider the fact that plenty of evidence refutes everything you're saying.

Barnstormer:I'm no expert but I wouldn't doubt that spanking when done appropriately would prevent the rash of ADD and ADHD "dibathility" cases later in life. Spare the rod and spoil the doc-shoppin' layabout SSI recipient.

Those aren't disabilities, they're character flaws that could have been easily corrected if the principal's hands weren't tied.

/and in the town it was well known that when they got home...

I used to think like you. Now I have a stepson with a bona fide case of ADD. He genuinely thinks in a different way than "normal" kids. I don't think beating him would help.

TNel:AkaDad: I always punished my daughter by taking away her favorite things and she eventually figured out it was better to be good. No, you cannot have a picture of her or her phone number.

And if their favorite item was expensive you end up giving it back so the punishment was them losing said item for a day or so? What does that teach it's just a awaiting game that they will then move onto the next item to play with.

It's actually a very effective tool in the kit, provided the kid is old enough to understand causality.