Member analysis of love and brutality *split from cat calls and wolf whistles*

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Okay. Now if one fails to recognize the existence and nature of both extremes, how does one find the sweet spot? Unlike other spots, this one does exist!

I don't think there is a sweet spot. That implies a static quality. I think relationships are more like sailing. You tack back and forth between positive and negative feelings to arrive at your destination.

For future reference - there's a report button, or PM available to the mods/admins, it gets their action quicker than your little feather fluffing in threads, Mr. Little Moderator that Wish It Could.

If he just reported my alleged derailing, he would lose the opportunity to ride out on his white horse. If he cared about maintaining a structured conversation over other motives, that would seem to be the most logical course of action, however.

Yes, brutality and love do co-exist (they co-exist for most people internally, don't they) in most relationships, including romance. I think the balance or mix of the two matters a great deal however as do boundaries. Small pieces of brutality are inevitable as we begin to take people for granted. Yet, even with the most intimate relationships, there are boundaries of that can't be crossed without meaning to inflict serious damage.

Syn - is there hope for a relationship that has begun to lean heavily towards brutality or is it a lost cause? How do you teach yourself to not follow learned patterns?

Yes, brutality and love do co-exist (they co-exist for most people internally, don't they) in most relationships, including romance. I think the balance or mix of the two matters a great deal however as do boundaries. Small pieces of brutality are inevitable as we begin to take people for granted. Yet, even with the most intimate relationships, there are boundaries of that can't be crossed without meaning to inflict serious damage.

Syn - is there hope for a relationship that has begun to lean heavily towards brutality or is it a lost cause? How do you teach yourself to not follow learned patterns?

It sounds cliche, but I think once you lose respect for the other person, all is lost. Also, once you lose respect for yourself, all is likely lost.

What is respect? Recognition of worth. Recognition of importance. This recognition lends itself to reverence and appreciation. Once you lose the ability to recognize worth, once you lose the ability to recognize what is important, you lose everything else. You lose your perspective. You become blind.

Love is a powerful emotion that affects us in powerful ways. This is not always confined to being nice or pleasant. Sometimes it creates violent waves of feeling.

But, as long as you recognize, remember, and respect the one you love, you will be able to align these more violent, selfish, negative feelings and place them subordinately to tenderness and admiration.

This is why it is important to learn to be considerate. By considering others, we are better able to step away from our self-concern long enough to start seeing the reality of the other person.

It sounds cliche, but I think once you lose respect for the other person, all is lost. Also, once you lose respect for yourself, all is likely lost.

What is respect? Recognition of worth. Recognition of importance. This recognition lends itself to reverence and appreciation. Once you lose the ability to recognize worth, once you lose the ability to recognize what is important, you lose everything else. You lose your perspective. You become blind.

Yes, respect is based on evaluating and recognizing worth. Being an optimist, I agree with you on the relationship front - not that change isn't possible but it's highly unlikely given the loss of respect and the amount of work necessary to build respect for two people. Then again, love when it is real love that is not entirely selfish is a good foundation for building or rebuilding that respect. Think of the way we see our parents. It's common for most people to question their authority along with their wisdom, knowledge, love etc etc... Most people's relationships with their parents are difficult at least at some points in their lives. The fact, however, that we can come around to seeing them as human, as you said, as flawed yet worthy of our respect is the closest thing to redemption. Blindness here isn't a permanent affliction, is it?

On the individual front, one person is in charge making the situation a lot less complicated. Also, we have far more control over the variables so more hope here I think. I don't think we're born with a high sense (or low, for that matter) of self-worth. We learn that like anything else through our environment. It can change and it requires a lot of work to see yourself differently or act differently from the environment which shaped us. Learning to love oneself is a good first step too.

Perhaps in the extreme circumstance that a person has learned no consideration for themselves or others, no change is possible However, most people have some levels of both or at least higher levels of one (narcissism and martyrdom to the extent one loses oneself - two sides of the same coin). In this case, I'd argue it's easier to learn consideration and turn that consideration towards the other side - learning empathy/sympathy for a narcissist or valuing self-preservation for a selfless person.

Love is a powerful emotion that affects us in powerful ways. This is not always confined to being nice or pleasant. Sometimes it creates violent waves of feeling.

But, as long as you recognize, remember, and respect the one you love, you will be able to align these more violent, selfish, negative feelings and place them subordinately to tenderness and admiration.

This is why it is important to learn to be considerate. By considering others, we are better able to step away from our self-concern long enough to start seeing the reality of the other person.

Important lesson. I think this is why the morally repugnant thread was a bit of a shock to my system. How could someone who is considerate turn so violently against someone they said they loved just a few days ago. I can understand the strong emotions. I don't know anyone who's reached their 30s and beyond without feeling them at least a few times in their past. Love stinks on a regular basis but to lose one's humanity is a much greater loss.

I don't think there is a sweet spot. That implies a static quality. I think relationships are more like sailing. You tack back and forth between positive and negative feelings to arrive at your destination.

There are different poles across which to slide. For example, if a person is driven to fill a personal need, then the gentle moments of love are filling self's need as are the brutal moments. The outward expression are opposite, but the inner orientation consistent in terms of filling an internal void. Feelings of entitlement tend to lie at the foundation of emotional need and attachment. Emotional attachment by its nature can express itself in opposites like the one described in this thread because it is internally unstable and demands something of the external world which it will get at all costs.

There is a different sort of love that is based more on the other person, or on both people as equals. It runs a different gamut than the one described above. It is driven more by understanding and is less conditional.

The first one approaches the connection with another person as "you will give me what I need at any cost. If you love and bolster me to make me feel powerful, you will be rewarded. If you harm me, I will harm you back until I feel powerful."

The second one approaches a connection something like "I seek to know who you are. In order to fully know you, I must let go of internal expectations about what you must be, and instead allow you to be whatever it is that is true. If you love me or harm me, I will better know you regardless. I cannot love if I cannot know, and because of this I allow you to be and am willing to accept whatever it is you are". This doesn't mean that if they are destructive, one would allow self to be harmed, but it does imply a response of understanding as opposed to a response of punishment and control.