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Are you trying to claim that Java *is* suitable for every task? ... That's why we create web-specific languages.

Just to defend my favorite platform a little. The only thing that Java isn't suitable when it comes to web applications is "quick and dirty scripts". Otherwise, it beats the hell out of PHP if the programmer is proeficient enough with the frameworks it uses. And even there, who says one cannot use Jython or Groovy or even Rhino and BeanShell ? Give me a counter-example and I will fight back

None, I don't do ground up development in either. I do a lot of integration work, mostly.

Yes, you see, that means you still have a lot to learn to be proeficient in Java. I could enumerate about a dozen frameworks I worked with (most are part of the standard). That's why I questioned you.

Originally Posted by Etmu

That's quite possibly the silliest statement I've ever heard about learning languages. If you honestly think there's all that much difference between THE CODE that you write in PHP vs. Java vs. C++, you're out of your mind.

YES, it is a big difference in the APIs you use, in best practices promoted throughout the community, in the standard design patterns, in problems that you hit, not to mention PHP is dynamic, Java is semi-dynamic, and C++ is static (with a little help from templates it can be made a little dynamic) and that means a world of difference. Surelly the quick-sort alghoritm will work the same, but not your average shopping cart.

Originally Posted by Etmu

You shouldn't ever have to learn an algorithm or pattern more than once. New languages come out every year.

OK, so you allready know everything there is to know about alghoritms and you are confortable with binary search trees, avl trees, red-black trees, multi-way trees, b-trees, graphs traversal depth first/breadth first, least cost graphs prim / kruskal, greedy, divide-et-impera, backtracking, branch&bound, dynamic all 3 ways.
And those were studied in highschool. And yes, alghoritms and mathematics never change, that's why if one earns it's money from them it will NEVER be outdated. And that was my point.

Originally Posted by Etmu

Languages CHANGE

actually they evolve towards LISP
Just a though: There is no single feature in todays languages that hasn't been implemented in LISP or Smaltalk for years.
Only APIs have evolved.

ok good. i'm glad someone brought this up. knowing that it's another language, i really don't want to get involved. it's hard to see something actually take on php. there's literally too many thousands of libraries out there written in php to just go off and learn another.

Languages become popular when they make web programming easier. ASP became popular because Perl was a pain. PHP became popular because ASP had shortcomings that could not be overcome without using COM, a real p.i.a. Ruby on rails is becoming popular because it simplifies the reasons everyone is using PHP, building dynamic websites and web applications.

This is the reason that Python, Java for the web never caught on. They don't make anything easier or simpler. This is also the reason that Microsoft is pushing to make .NET IDE available to the general public. They know that if they simply the ASP.NET world then popularity will follow. But they are going about it the wrong way, the proof lies in the fact that ASP.NET use increases are not close to what PHP is enjoying. I wonder how they are going to take RubyonRails popularity. Maybe they will bring back ASP classic in a free 4.0 version?

Languages become popular when they make web programming easier. ASP became popular because Perl was a pain. PHP became popular because ASP had shortcomings that could not be overcome without using COM, a real p.i.a. Ruby on rails is becoming popular because it simplifies the reasons everyone is using PHP, building dynamic websites and web applications.

Yeah & one example is that you don't have to mess with mod_rewrite rules in RubyOnRails if you don't want to. It creates clean & easy to understand URIs automatically all by itself!!

Languages become popular when they make web programming easier. ASP became popular because Perl was a pain. PHP became popular because ASP had shortcomings that could not be overcome without using COM, a real p.i.a. Ruby on rails is becoming popular because it simplifies the reasons everyone is using PHP, building dynamic websites and web applications.

This is the reason that Python, Java for the web never caught on. They don't make anything easier or simpler. This is also the reason that Microsoft is pushing to make .NET IDE available to the general public. They know that if they simply the ASP.NET world then popularity will follow. But they are going about it the wrong way, the proof lies in the fact that ASP.NET use increases are not close to what PHP is enjoying. I wonder how they are going to take RubyonRails popularity. Maybe they will bring back ASP classic in a free 4.0 version?

yes but php is a standard web development language in the sense that it has the largest support and diffusion on this environment.

Yeah & one example is that you don't have to mess with mod_rewrite rules in RubyOnRails if you don't want to. It creates clean & easy to understand URIs automatically all by itself!!

Yep, as a Drupal module developer I am always fighting with the URI , .htaccess files hierarchy and contents along with the filesystem. Nothing seems to jibe the first time. Sometimes it takes days to figure out a simple addition of a link or access permissions because of this. In Rails it just works, or it tells me why it is not working.

So far I have only done some simple Hello world stuff and played with AJAX. AJAX on Rails is implemented a bit differently but it is better.

Since my field of play is content management. On the first of October when my web host goes live with Rails then I will start in with Typo. I am excited!

Originally Posted by Skyblaze

yes but php is a standard web development language in the sense that it has the largest support and diffusion on this environment.

Yes, but it got that way by being easy to use. If you go by support statistics then you will find that Perl has just as much if not more wide spread "standard" web support. But Perl is stagnating. Very little growth on the servers and book sales are falling into the dungeon while enterprise use is flattening out.

btw, your trustyhost doesn't seem to reply to pre-sales questions!! I emailed them some pre-sales questions & they didn't reply even after 1 month. Obviously I won't consider hosting with them again in future!!

Why is asp.net 2.0 better than rails ?
A harder question would be why is Ruby (+Rails) better than PHP. That would be a lot more difficult to answer. But it is obvious why PHP is better than ASP.NET for some tasks, don't you consider ? So you can safely assume at least that Rails is better than ASP.NET whenever PHP is better that ASP.NET.

I was about to mention that, actually. Setting up Ruby on Rails on a VPS—or, for that matter, a dedicated—is fairly simple. The most difficult part is getting it to play nicely with the server control panel, which is more or less bearable under Plesk.

Well, you don't need it, strictly speaking, but you won't be able to configure it via the control panel. Under Plesk, all you need to do is create a separate configuration file (to avoid having Plesk overwrite it) and drop it in where needed.

Why is asp.net 2.0 better than rails ?
A harder question would be why is Ruby (+Rails) better than PHP. That would be a lot more difficult to answer. But it is obvious why PHP is better than ASP.NET for some tasks, don't you consider ? So you can safely assume at least that Rails is better than ASP.NET whenever PHP is better that ASP.NET.

No, its not obvious why PHP is better then ASP.NET. Please Elaborate. Other than cost and portability.

"A nerd who gets contacts
and a trendy hair cut is still a nerd" - Stephen Colbert on Apple Users

No, its not obvious why PHP is better then ASP.NET. Please Elaborate. Other than cost and portability.

PHP's better at being exploited

In reality, I don't see Rails being better than .NET, nor do I see .NET being better than Rails. There's some overlap but the two really live in different spaces. I don't think you'll see many big corporate sites being done in Rails anytime soon for example.

There's some overlap but the two really live in different spaces. I don't think you'll see many big corporate sites being done in Rails anytime soon for example.

Well, the vast majority of applications are small to medium ones and that is a big overlap since both Rails and asp.net are suitable for them.
And PHP is currently a mainstream platform used by big companies. So is Perl and Python. So why shouldn't Ruby be there also ? Scripting languages are just better and cheaper for some tasks.

You should not confuse or attempt to interchange the words "easier" and "better". This is why Holy wars start. The popularity of a language has nothing to do with which one is "better". I mostly comes down to what is easier to implement when the most commonly needed aspects of developing a web application are presented. Another big part is how well the community markets the language. A lot of things never happen in a language because the marketing of its strengths are taken for granted. So sooner or later people forget about its newness and never try to find out more about it.

This is the case of Python. Python started out with weak PR. I remember Dan Shafer at the old builder.com trying to snowball some interest in Python. He did not succeed. Even now Python is suffering from being virtually unknown to most beginning to get into the internet or web programming. This despite the fact that Python exists as CGI in just about every instance that PhP and Perl do on a webserver. Ruby has gotten a big shot in the arm with Rails and all the publicity following basecamp just like PHP got when version 4 was released and was pushed as a cross-platform solution.

sidenote: (Ruby and Rails have and advantage over ASP.NET in that they can be big and small. ASP.NET is a big solution package that will not or cannot be small. This applies to Java and Python also. To be small you have to be able to go procedural or emulate it without giving the developer a headache. To be big you have to have a ready and flexible OOP model in place. This is why php4 has it so hard trying to be big and gaining a foot hold in large enterprise. It is also why Zend should kill php4 and go with php5 exclusively.)

In reality, I don't see Rails being better than .NET, nor do I see .NET being better than Rails. There's some overlap but the two really live in different spaces. I don't think you'll see many big corporate sites being done in Rails anytime soon for example.

We are planning to reveloper big network of UK employment websites (currently ASP based) that get tens of thousands of hits a day in Rails, with a huge backend system powerning them all.

Also, to take an example from the Agile Rails book, the http://www.rapidreporting.com/ verification engine, used by 80% of the top 1000 mortgage underwriters in the USA uses Rails, and is built to handle 2 millions transactions per month.

I think you'll be see more and more enterprise or corporate level Rails websites and systems sooner than you think. I also think that Rails is aimed at the enterprise and Jave/.NET developers just as much as it is aimed at smaller to medium apps and PHP developers (with some exceptions).