Williams, Richard and Muriel

ORAL HISTORY OF RICHARD (DICK) AND MURIEL WILLIAMS
Interviewed by Don Hunnicutt
Filmed by BBB Communications, LLC.
December 17, 2013
MR. HUNNICUTT: This interview is for the Center of Oak Ridge Oral History. The date is December 17, 2012. I’m Don Hunnicutt in the home of Dick and Muriel Williams, 11735 Crystal Brook Lane, Knoxville, Tennessee, in Farragut, Tennessee, to take their oral history about living Oak Ridge, Tennessee. Let me start first with you, Dick. State your full name, place of birth, and date.
MR. WILLIAMS: Richard E. Williams – December 10, 1931. Campton, Kentucky.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And Muriel – the same for you, please.
MRS. WILLIAMS: September 3, 1931 – Sault Ste Marie, Michigan.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Dick, would you give me your father’s name and place of birth of you remember – and date?
MR. WILLIAMS: His name was Darley Williams. I think it was born in Campton, Kentucky. The date, I don’t know. I don’t really know a lot about it because he and my mother were divorced when I was about three years old.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Give me your mother’s name – maiden name.
MR. WILLIAMS: Her name was Agnes Gertrude Cox. She was born in Campton, Kentucky. I don’t know the exact date.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Muriel, your father’s name…
MRS. WILLIAMS: My father’s name was Austin Johnston. He was born in White Fish Point, Michigan, and my mother’s name was Elizabeth McCandless, and she was born in Sault Ste Marie, Michigan.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall the dates of their birth?
MRS. WILLIAMS: No.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Dick, what about your father’s school history? You mentioned that your mother had divorced, but do you recall anything about his school history?
MR. WILLIAMS: No.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Muriel, about your father?
MRS. WILLIAMS: He went to the University of Michigan.
MR. HUNNICUTT: He was a high school graduate and then went through college?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did he graduate?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Not from college, no. My mother was going there also to become a nurse, and they got married.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So your father’s profession was what?
MRS. WILLIAMS: When he first started working, he was an inspector on the tugboats for the government. Then they moved to Albany, New York. I’m not sure exactly what he did there. I know it was with the government. That’s how we got to Oak Ridge.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you have brothers and sisters?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I had one sister.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Was she younger or older than you?
MRS. WILLIAMS: She was nine years younger than me.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And her name was…?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Gretchen.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Dick, during your youth, did your mother work?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What was her profession?
MR. WILLIAMS: She was a secretary and other jobs. In Oak Ridge, she worked for the American Industrial – the bus company, transportation.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you have brothers and sisters?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, I have a sister – Gloria. She’s a year and a half older than me. She’s 83 and a half now. I have a half-brother and half-sister from my dad’s second marriage.
MR. HUNNICUTT: When you were growing up in Kentucky, tell me about your schooling. And how was school in those days?
MR. WILLIAMS: I think school in those days was much better than it is today because we respected our teachers, and we learned to read and spell. We were always good readers and spellers because we had competitions – spelling bees and stuff like that in class. Occasionally, we would get switched for being a mean little kid.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Some of us didn’t.
MR. WILLIAMS: I think a lot of my school was in a one-room class, like we went through grades two through eight in the same room.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Then do you remember some of the subjects you took in school? What were they?
MR. WILLIAMS: In grade school?
MR. HUNNICUTT: Yes.
MR. WILLIAMS: Reading, writing, and arithmetic.
MR. HUNNICUTT: The same standard.
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How about you, Muriel? How was your elementary school days?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I remember in New York before we moved to Tennessee, my teacher pulled down a map of the United States on the wall and said, “This is where Muriel is moving.” I remember thinking, “Wow,” that was so far away. I remember that school because I had to walk a long way to get the bus. I walked through an apple farm, but I liked it. I liked being out in the country. I’m a northerner, and I still like the cold weather. I guess that’s what I liked. And when I came to school down here, in Knoxville, it was hard for me because I was not accepted until I came to Oak Ridge. Then that first day of school was – yay, everyone was from somewhere else. It was great.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Dick, what was the typical dress that you remember wearing to school in those days as a boy?
MR. WILLIAMS: Just jeans and T-shirts.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How about you, Muriel?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Socks and shoes. I remember that – and dresses. Unless we were outside in the wintertime, we didn’t wear long pants.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you like school, Dick?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You mentioned, Muriel, you came to Knoxville. Tell me about that.
MRS. WILLIAMS: My dad came earlier to work. He was a purchasing agent for that Atomic Energy Commission. He came here to Oak Ridge early because they needed him, I guess. His other two friends that came with them – one was an engineer. His name was Leroy Jackson. He worked at AEC, too. The other man and family didn’t stay very long. They went out west to wherever that other place is. What was your question? Oh, about school, yeah. Do you want me to tell you about the first day of school?
MR. HUNNICUTT: Where did the family live in Knoxville?
MRS. WILLIAMS: We lived off Cumberland Avenue. I believe it was 22nd Street.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What type of house was that?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I think it was a house with two families – what you call this?
MR. WILLIAMS: Duplex.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Okay, duplex. I remember I had never seen a black person until my mother had hired somebody to do the ironing – that I remember seeing a black person until then. I couldn’t stop looking at her because she was so pretty – had pretty skin.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How old were you then?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I must have been 11 or 10.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You are talking about your first day at school in Knoxville. Kind of describe that for me.
MRS. WILLIAMS: No, Oak Ridge was the one I was trying to think about.
MR. HUNNICUTT: But did you attend school in Knoxville?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yes, I did.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember where that was?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yes, it was – do you know where 22nd Avenue is off Cumberland? The school was right up on the hill there. I don’t remember the name of that. I want to go by there someday and see if that school is still there. It’s an elementary school.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you walk to school when you went?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How long did the family live in Knoxville before you moved to Oak Ridge?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Gosh, I don’t remember. It wasn’t too long. It wasn’t even a year I don’t think.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You mentioned to me where the Manhattan Project office was. Tell me again where that was.
MRS. WILLIAMS: My dad told me that they worked in the Ford Motor Company building while they were building the AEC building. I don’t know whether that was when we were in Oak Ridge – I mean, Knoxville. I don’t know the dates of when that building was built. He may have been going into Oak Ridge while we were living in Knoxville. I don’t remember.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Yes, that building was on Central Avenue where the railroad salvage has their office building right now. So the family moved from Knoxville to Oak Ridge when housing was available. Where was the first home? Do you recall?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I recall my dad taking us on Sunday into Oak Ridge so we could see the house being built. On Outer Drive where we lived, all the houses – there were about five of them. They had already built the concrete basement and the subflooring and the chimneys for the fireplaces. They were all the same, so that’s the way they built everything. I remember my dad saying, “This is where we are going to live.” Then the next time I remember going there – we just moved in there. It was pretty neat.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall when you came to Oak Ridge, coming through the gate?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. Then when you were 12, you had to have a badge with your picture on it. Did you ever have one of those?
MR. HUNNICUTT: No, that was before my time. Let’s go back to you a minute, Dick. How come your family came to Oak Ridge? How did you get to Oak Ridge?
MR. WILLIAMS: By bus, of course. My mother came down and got a job as a secretary with American Industrial. It was a bus company. She was able to get my sister and I living together permanent.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember the first house you lived in – where was?
MR. WILLIAMS: It was an E-2 apartment in the east end of town near – the Elm Grove area.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall what it looked like inside an E-2 apartment?
MR. WILLIAMS: It was two bedrooms upstairs, and I guess the living room and kitchen down. It was pretty nice as I recall.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And you had to share a room with your sister?
MR. WILLIAMS: No, she and my mom shared a room. I had my own room. We had one bathroom, and we all share that.
MR. HUNNICUTT: At what age was that? Do you remember?
MR. WILLIAMS: It was probably 1945, I believe it was. I had to be about 13.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did your mom come before the family did to get a job?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall anything she said about how she got the job or where she went there, anything of that nature?
MR. WILLIAMS: No, I don’t.
MR. HUNNICUTT: By living in the E-2, did you go to Elm Grove School? Was that your school?
MR. WILLIAMS: No, we moved to a flattop on Michigan Avenue. I went to Pine Valley in the eighth grade.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember what the inside of the flattop look like?
MR. WILLIAMS: It was plywood inside and out.
MRS. WILLIAMS: A lot of plywood.
MR. WILLIAMS: It had unique windows. It was tall and narrow on one side of it, and there were some smaller ones that just pushed easily out.
MRS. WILLIAMS: The first house we had after we married was a flattop – two bedrooms.
MR. WILLIAMS: We enjoyed the house. [inaudible]
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall how the flattop was heated?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah, coal stove. We had a coal bin outside where they delivered the bin. There was no cooling there either.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Was it hot in the summer time?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did the coal stove keep the flattop fairly warm?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes. Very warm.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Muriel, describe the house that you lived in on Outer Drive. What kind of house was it?
MRS. WILLIAMS: It was a B house – two bedrooms. I had one sister, so we shared the bedroom. It was very nice. It had quite a large living room with a big fireplace and bookcases on both sides. There was room enough in the kitchen for the four of us to eat. It was nice. It was a cemesto.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember what type of heat was in the house?
MRS. WILLIAMS: It was a coal furnace. They delivered coal – they, being the government, I guess. Then I guess they switched later on to something else. I don’t know what.
MR. HUNNICUTT: It was gas. They switch to gas many years later. Where did they put the coal? Do you recall in the cemesto house?
MRS. WILLIAMS: No. I remember there was a coal chute. They put it right in the area where the furnace was. It was a coal chute there. I remember that now.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did they come on a frequency? Or did you tell them when to come? Do you remember anything like that – about delivering the coal?
MRS. WILLIAMS: No, I don’t remember anything like that. That was not important to me as a kid.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What did you think about Oak Ridge, Dick, when you first got here?
MR. WILLIAMS: Wonderful. It was great. I remember coming in Elza Gate. I thought the Clinch River was the most beautiful thing I’d ever seen in my life. I had never seen anything like that in Kentucky. It was real clear water. It was a most striking thing to me. Plus, Oak Ridge was very, very different. Policeman rode horseback I guess it was probably the Army. The streets were muddy, and it was just different.
MRS. WILLIAMS: There was always something going on.
MR. WILLIAMS: There was a lot of construction.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Building things.
MR. WILLIAMS: Back then, the population was like 70,000 or 80,000 people when they were building the place. Not everybody lived in Oak Ridge. It was nice – unique.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What did you think about it, Muriel, when you first came?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I was so happy because I was accepted. Everybody, all my friends and everybody that I was going to school with was from someplace else. My best friend was from Maine. They were from California, everywhere. Two obnoxious guys that I met were from Texas. This one guy is still our best friend, and he knows that I say that about him. They had us meet in the cafeteria the first day of school, and everybody was supposed to stand up and say where they were from. These two guys from Texas – everybody was [inaudible]. It was fine. I was so happy to be there with everybody else from somewhere else.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What was the grade that you first attended at Elm Grove?
MRS. WILLIAMS: It must’ve been the seventh grade – sixth or seventh.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you feel like that you were ahead or behind or up to pace with the teaching standards there at Elm Grove?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I felt that I was up to standard. I went to Pine Valley, and I went to Cedar Hill. I think I went to both of those schools in one year. I don’t remember what year that was.
MR. HUNNICUTT: That’s kind of strange because where you told me you lived was in the Pine Valley district. Do you recall why you went to Cedar Hill?
MRS. WILLIAMS: It was closer actually. The school was closer. Evidently they thought it was anyway.
MR. WILLIAMS: It was really.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember New York Avenue – how steep that was going up New York Avenue?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Oh gosh, yes. I walked it.
MR. HUNNICUTT: There was a shopping center on New York Avenue – the Pine Valley Shopping Center.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Right across from the school. In fact, almost every little area had their own little shopping center. I’m sure most people have told you about it. They had a grocery store, a barbershop, a drugstore. Anything else?
MR. WILLIAMS: Fire station.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, fire station. It was very nice.
MR. HUNNICUTT: The classrooms – when you went to Elm Grove versus when you were out of state – how did they compare?
MRS. WILLIAMS: We had everything in Oak Ridge in the school. We had everything that we needed – all the books we needed. The teachers all had to have master’s degrees, didn’t they?
MR. WILLIAMS: I’m not sure.
MRS. WILLIAMS: We were well cared for.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What do you remember about the school setting, Dick?
MR. WILLIAMS: Good. Pleasant.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember some of your teachers – their names?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I remember in high school, the algebra teacher was named Ms. Thomas, and Margaret Mars was also a teacher. Of course the coaches – Nick Orlando. Those are the three ones I remember. I think we had a line coach in high school – Kern, I believe his name was. Of course Ben Martin was the head coach back there in high school. Who am I leaving out? Later on John Francis was the coach there. He played at the University of Tennessee in college. He was the guy that made two blocks in the same play on two different guys, which is unique.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you have a bicycle when you are in Oak Ridge?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I did.
MR. WILLIAMS: No.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you just walk wherever you wanted to go? Did you ride the bus any?
MR. WILLIAMS: No, walked. I walked to school, but there was a city bus. It didn’t cost anything to ride it for free. I remember when I went to the junior high, I rode the bus because Michigan Avenue would’ve definitely been a long walk. I rode the bus to that. In high school, we walked.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You mentioned, Muriel, about boardwalks. Tell me about the boardwalks.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Oh gosh, I can even smell them what I think about it. You know how fresh wood smells? There was a boardwalk behind the houses on Outer Drive – on the south side of Outer Drive. There was a boardwalk that went east and west. I always took that one to Pine Valley. They were just all over the place. They were wonderful. To be outside was fun.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall on New York Avenue on the backside of the houses if you are going up New York, there was kind of like a valley down in that area. Do you recall anything being in there? Did you ever go down through that way toward Pine Valley? Do you recall anything?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I don’t recall anything being there.
MR. HUNNICUTT: We used to have a ball field in that area. It just be like that would be suitable, but apparently not.
MRS. WILLIAMS: I don’t remember anything there.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You mentioned you had a bicycle.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yes, it was given to me when we lived in New York. I didn’t ride it much in Oak Ridge because it was so hilly.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Were the streets paved when you lived on Outer Drive?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I can’t remember, but I doubt it because they had those little – I want to say shacks, but they were little places for convenience stores – where workers went and bought their snacks and cokes and things. What you call those things? They had one on the corner of New York and Outer Drive. It was just a little shed about as big as this room, and a couple people worked there, and they sold drinks and snacks and sandwiches and things are the workers that were putting up the other homes and paving streets or whatever they were doing there.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You’re the first person that’s ever mention that.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Really?
MR. HUNNICUTT: Yes.
MRS. WILLIAMS: They were quite frequently all over because there were so many people working there. Like Dick said, the Army on their horses. I remember when they left, they sold their horses to some man, and he had a riding stable. It was between my house and where you go down to Oliver Springs.
MR. WILLIAMS: That was G Road.
MRS. WILLIAMS: G Road – do you know about G Road?
MR. HUNNICUTT: Yeah.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Do you remember there was a riding stable there? The horses all on their rump had the stamp for the Army.
MR. HUNNICUTT: It was a government stamp. You would go down to G Road. Where about down G Road do you recall the stable being?
MRS. WILLIAMS: It was within walking distance. I don’t remember. We walked down there all the time, and I very seldom rode the horses, but I liked being around them. When I lived on Outer Drive, being a kid – at one point, I even delivered the News-Sentinel. I just remembered that.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How about you, Dick? What did you do for earning money when you were a teenager?
MR. WILLIAMS: I worked at the Texaco gas station after school and during the summer.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Where was that located?
MR. WILLIAMS: Down south…
MRS. WILLIAMS: Tennessee and…
MR. WILLIAMS: Back where Big Ed’s Pizza is now. The station was there before Oak Ridge was built I’m told. I’m sure it was.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember how much money you made working there?
MR. WILLIAMS: Probably 50 cents a day. That sounds low, doesn’t it? I don’t recall.
MR. HUNNICUTT: It’s probably about right.
MR. WILLIAMS: I think gas was selling like 17 cents a gallon at the time – maybe even cheaper. I pumped gas primarily is what I did.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you work every day during the summer?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you have any other jobs in the summer when you were working?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I was a lifeguard at the swimming pool one summer.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What do you remember about the swimming pool that was so unique?
MRS. WILLIAMS: It was so be. It was so big.
MR. WILLIAMS: Very nice.
MRS. WILLIAMS: There wasn’t much around that that time either. It was sort of out in the open.
MR. WILLIAMS: First it was the sand, and then they built the concrete. It was right at Grove Center.
MRS. WILLIAMS: I used to babysit, and I would make a quarter an hour. I remember one time I babysat these two boys. I had to feed them supper, give them a bath, put them to bed, and there was no TV or anything. I don’t remember what I did. I made a quarter an hour.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How old were you when you are doing that?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I was in junior high or high school. They lived right down the road from us.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do either one of you remember home milk delivery?
MR. WILLIAMS: Oh, yeah.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What you remember about it, Dick?
MR. WILLIAMS: It was fresh.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Glass bottles?
MR. WILLIAMS: Glass bottles, yeah. Paper top, I think. I think that’s the way it was.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember who the dairy delivery company was?
MR. WILLIAMS: No. I don’t.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What about other door-to-door salesman? Do you all remember any other…?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I don’t think that was allowed when we were kids.
MR. WILLIAMS: I don’t recall any door-to-door salesman.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You mentioned you delivered the newspaper – the Knoxville News-Sentinel. How old were you?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I don’t know. I was fairly young, I think. I remember the day the war ended. It was in the paper, and I carried the paper that – the day the war ended.
MR. HUNNICUTT: That would be 1945. In junior high school, where was the junior high located when either one of you went there?
MR. WILLIAMS: Jefferson.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Jefferson – that’s where we both went.
MR. WILLIAMS: It was right off of Illinois Avenue.
MRS. WILLIAMS: It was Robertsville.
MR. WILLIAMS: Robertsville. The other one was built long before the bridge.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember something unique about that building?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I remember that the gym – the old gym was there.
MR. WILLIAMS: The gym was nice.
MRS. WILLIAMS: It belonged to the school – I guess it was the Robertsville School.
MR. HUNNICUTT: It was Robertsville. That was the Robertsville Community. Do you remember the round fire escapes that they had the top floors on each side of the building? You could slide down them.
MR. WILLIAMS: No, I don’t recall that.
MR. HUNNICUTT: They had those. That was one of the unique things about the building. I think the Manhattan Project put those in. That wasn’t there originally. From there, you went to the high school. Where was the high school located?
MR. WILLIAMS: Up on the hill in Jackson Square.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You two didn’t know each other for some time. We’ll get to that. When you went to high school, Muriel, what did you notice different between junior high and high school?
MRS. WILLIAMS: The high school was new, and Robertsville was not.
MR. WILLIAMS: There were a lot more people there.
MRS. WILLIAMS: It was bigger. It was much bigger. It was very nice.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What type of classes did you take in high school, Dick?
MR. WILLIAMS: Math, English, typing – I took typing, Latin, general science.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Just for curiosity, why would a boy take typing in those days? Why did you take typing?
MR. WILLIAMS: I can’t recall. I think I dropped out – I know. I dropped out of second year Latin and took typing because I didn’t really enjoy the Latin and the teacher – sorry to say.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How about you, Muriel? What type of classes did you take when you were in high school?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Of course I took what I had to – English. I think we had to take a certain amount of math, too. I took home economics. That was one of the things that a lot of the girls took back then. I also took typing.
MR. WILLIAMS: Everybody had to take gym, too.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Oh, yeah, gym. That was a big thing.
MR. WILLIAMS: And a good thing.
MRS. WILLIAMS: And a good thing.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall who the gym teacher was for the girls in those days?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I remember what she looked like. I can’t remember her name. She was very – they were all very strict. When I was at Pine Valley, I got hit on the hand with a ruler. I don’t remember what I did. That’s the only time I’ve ever been punished in school. But in high school, I did fine. I met Dick’s sister first, and she said “I’ve got a brother I’d like you to meet.” That was it.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall either one of you how the weather was in those days? Did it seem to be colder than it is now?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, it snowed every year. I can remember when we used a sleigh ride down [inaudible]?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Michigan Avenue?
MR. WILLIAMS: No, it was Pennsylvania I think.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Oh yeah, Pennsylvania.
MR. WILLIAMS: It snowed every year the best I recall.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did they call off school like they do now?
MRS. WILLIAMS: No.
MR. WILLIAMS: No, I don’t remember school getting called off.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Because some of the kids could get there. Some of them couldn’t. We’d walk there.
MR. WILLIAMS: I don’t remember it got bad enough that we couldn’t drive.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you take any music classes – either one of you – when you were in school?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I did. I took choir. I guess it was called choir.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Who was your teacher?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I don’t know.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember Miss Lyman?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I remember the name.
MR. WILLIAMS: I remember the name – Lyman.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Was she a music teacher?
MR. HUNNICUTT: Yes.
MR. WILLIAMS: I remember that name.
MR. HUNNICUTT: She was the band director at Jefferson for many, many years. Very strict and never married – a very strict lady, a very private lady. Very good at what she did.
MR. WILLIAMS: Their were several old maid school teachers as I recall.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Some of the teachers you mentioned I had in school as well. These teachers were young men and women that came. They served their whole career at Oak Ridge. Did you ever collect coke bottles, Dick, for deposit?
MR. WILLIAMS: No.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you?
MRS. WILLIAMS: No. We didn’t – in our house, we didn’t drink Coca-Cola or any drinks like that.
MR. HUNNICUTT: In those days, there wasn’t TVs. There were radios obviously. Did you listen to the radio very much?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What were some of the programs you like to listen to?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Music mainly.
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Being from the north, I didn’t care for country music at all. I didn’t like Elvis Presley. I was a teenager, and he was a teenager, and I thought he was a greaser.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What’s your description of the greaser?
MRS. WILLIAMS: A guy that puts something on his hair and slicks it back.
MR. HUNNICUTT: If I remember right, in those days that seemed to be the style for boys?
MRS. WILLIAMS: No, not all of them.
MR. WILLIAMS: [inaudible] there were very few guys that slicked their hair back. Most of the guys wore flat tops.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Short cut hair. What other things – Dick, you mentioned you were a lifeguard at the swimming pool. Did you visit the bowling alleys or skating rinks?
MR. WILLIAMS: I used to set pins in the bowling alley at [inaudible]. It was just across from where the – there is the Center Theater, we called it. I think I got so much a line – like nine cents a line may be.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall how you went about setting the pins?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah, by hand. When the automatic – I think it was duck bins just sitting behind. You put them in the frame.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How about you, Muriel? Other than babysitting, did you have any other job?
MRS. WILLIAMS: No, not when I was in high school. No, we went down – what was the name, that place where we went? I want to call it Fox Den, but that wasn’t it.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Wildcat Den?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Wildcat Den. That was our favorite hangout. That was a wonderful thing to have for high school kids. We had pool tables, ping-pong tables, jukebox. It was just a really nice place for high school kids to go.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember where it was located?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, right down – it was an old cafeteria right beside it.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Central Cafeteria?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Central Cafeteria.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did either one of you ever eat in the Central Cafeteria?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MRS. WILLIAMS: I don’t know whether I did or not.
MR. WILLIAMS: We have eaten there.
MRS. WILLIAMS: We didn’t eat out much in those days.
MR. WILLIAMS: It seemed to me like some of the guys would hang out in the Central Cafeteria there to get something to eat. I think that was the only thing I was open. I remember several guys sitting around a couple tables.
MRS. WILLIAMS: You remember the Ridge Theater and the drugstore next to it where they had a little soda bar and they had some food there.
MR. HUNNICUTT: The Service Drugstore.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yep.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What else do you remember in Jackson Square store-wise?
MR. WILLIAMS: The drugstore, the theater…
MRS. WILLIAMS: There was a shoe repair shop, and there was a real nice…
MR. WILLIAMS: The photography shop.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Men’s store there, too.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Samuel’s.
MR. WILLIAMS: Samuel’s was up in Jackson Square. This was down by the Ridge Theater.
MRS. WILLIAMS: That’s still Jackson Square. There was all kinds of – the department store. Was that Miller’s?
MR. WILLIAMS: That might’ve been later on.
MRS. WILLIAMS: There were a couple of women’s shops there, too.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall, Muriel, where your mother did her grocery shopping?
MRS. WILLIAMS: No, I don’t, but I remember that drugstore there at Jackson Square on the corner.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Williams Drugstore.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I remember standing in line there for cigarettes with her. My mother and dad both smoked, and I guess you could only buy them at certain times of the day. I don’t know – they were rationed, I guess. They had one of these little machines where they could make their own cigarettes and then put a paper in it and some tobacco, and they would roll it and make the cigarettes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What about you, Dick? What do you remember in Jackson Square? Do you remember anything about going to that Center Theater?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What kind of movies did they show at the Center?
MR. WILLIAMS: War movies, I think. Back at that time, a lot of them were.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Cowboy movies – there were a lot of cowboy movies – Westerns.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you ever go to the other parts of Oak Ridge for any particular reason?
MRS. WILLIAMS: We would go to Grove Center to the movies there.
MR. WILLIAMS: Of course the swimming pool.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What about the skating rink? Did you ever visit the skating rink?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah, down on Jefferson – the skating rink.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You mentioned that you met Dick’s sister first, and I guess she introduced him to you. What did you guys do when you went on a date? Where did you go on a date?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I don’t think we should tell him, do you? I remember one time – I don’t remember where we are going. I guess we were going to Knoxville. We stopped at the bar between Oak Ridge and Clinton. It was on the right-hand side. There was a tree growing up the middle of it – right in the middle of it. There was a guy there with the big overalls on, and he had a gun here. I remember that. There was not much to do. We use to go to Knoxville once in a while. I guess maybe that was when we were married. We would go with other couples to eat there.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So when you were dating, did you have a car, Dick?
MR. WILLIAMS: No.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So he was either on foot or rode the bus wherever.
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Of course we had the recreation places, and there was one right there. What was the name of that? Is it a library now or was the library?
MR. HUNNICUTT: On Kentucky Avenue?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Ridge Rec Hall.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, we used to hang out there, too.
MR. HUNNICUTT: The library was downstairs.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MR. HUNNICUTT: As long as you are in each other’s company, didn’t matter where you are going.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Right.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What about the dances on the tennis courts? Tell me about those.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Mostly, I was too young to do that. But I remember hearing the music and seeing it and thinking “This is a great thing.” It was for those young people who were working there.
MR. WILLIAMS: It was old people, too – older than us.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Muriel, what did your family do for recreation?
MRS. WILLIAMS: At one point, my grandparents – one set of my grandparents – my grandfather was a dentist. He retired, and they moved to Crossville. I don’t know what you would call it – a farm.
MR. WILLIAMS: A homestead. It was built back during the war.
MRS. WILLIAMS: We use to go there, and my dad had horses and cows – not horses, but cows there. They lived at 111 or 11 Deep Jaw Road. We use to go there all the time. I didn’t really like it because it was weekend, and I was taken from my kids – my friends. I was up in the country. They have an area there where you can swim, and I remember I go there…
MR. WILLIAMS: It was a state park.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Cumberland Mountain State Park?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, Cumberland Mountain State Park. I would go there and swim. Sometimes I could talk one of my friends into going over there with me on the weekends. That’s a lot what we did. Also, my mother and dad met this couple, and they were from Gatlinburg. Their family owned a motel up there. We’d go to Gatlinburg a lot. In fact, I learned to drive on the main street in Gatlinburg do shift car from the guy who – probably he still owns it, and his father owned a riding stable. That was a long time ago. You couldn’t do that now.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What about you, Dick? Do you recall what the family did for fun and recreation?
MR. WILLIAMS: We didn’t do much of anything at all. We probably couldn’t afford vacations and stuff like that.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did your mother work through the day, or where she on shift work?
MR. WILLIAMS: No, she worked during the day.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What do you recall her job duties were?
MR. WILLIAMS: Secretary – typing, probably I guess.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember where she had to go for the job location was?
MR. WILLIAMS: It was a bus terminal.
MR. HUNNICUTT: On the Turnpike?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, the Turnpike. It was a big bus terminal.
MR. WILLIAMS: There was a big bus terminal there and a big garage there for the buses – right across from the Hospital area now.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You probably haven’t been to Oak Ridge lately, but where that big bus garage is there is a huge assisted-living facility.
MR. WILLIAMS: I haven’t seen it.
MRS. WILLIAMS: We were in Oak Ridge on Sunday, but what we need to do is drive around and see these things. We still have friends in Oak Ridge, and one of my best friends told me about that place. Now the Alexander Hotel is being renovated. Of course, you know that. One of my friends called me the other day, and she said “You need to pack your bag. I made a reservation for you at the Alexander Hotel.”
MR. HUNNICUTT: They do have people on the waiting list.
MRS. WILLIAMS: That’s what I’ve heard.
MR. HUNNICUTT: That is one of the greatest thing that’s happened in Oak Ridge…
MRS. WILLIAMS: I was really glad to hear that.
MR. HUNNICUTT: That is a historical building if there ever was one.
MRS. WILLIAMS: We met the minister of the church right behind it the other day.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Chapel on the Hill.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Chapel on the Hill. That was the only church that I remember for years there.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember telephone party lines?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Tell me what you remember about that. What is a party line? I guess I should ask.
MR. WILLIAMS: There was more than one phone connected.
MRS. WILLIAMS: We would be on the same line.
MR. WILLIAMS: I think two or three families maybe.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Our phone would ring like three times, and their phone would ring four times. Somebody else’s would ring two. That’s how you did it. Then when you were calling, you picked up. If somebody was talking, you just were gentle.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Or you stayed on their line and listened.
MRS. WILLIAMS: No, never did that. But now that you mention it, that would’ve been fun.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall rolling stores that came around throughout the city?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yes. That was after they did away with the little eating area – the little sheds there.
MR. WILLIAMS: I remember those. There was a guy – I can’t remember his last name. His first name was Tommy. His dad owned some of those.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Muriel, what was Christmas like in your house?
MRS. WILLIAMS: It was really nice. We always had a nice tree, and packages. It was exciting. I remember when I found out there wasn’t any Santa Claus, I was crushed. My mother was cleaning the bathroom, and I said “You know, a friend of mine told me that there wasn’t any Santa Claus.” She said “There isn’t.” I was crushed. That was before I moved to Tennessee.
MR. HUNNICUTT: When you moved to Oak Ridge, was Christmas any different?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yes, because living in the North, once it snowed up north, we never saw the grass until the spring. In Tennessee, it wasn’t like that. The kids – I would build a fort once it snowed, and kept it all winter long, and it would get like ice. I have a lot of wonderful memories of playing in the snow, snow rides, sleds, and things like that. And then not so much in Tennessee because we just didn’t have…
MR. HUNNICUTT: You were talking about it not snowing much. Were you like a tomboy when you are in Oak Ridge?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yes, I think I was more of a tomboy. But you know, when we were kids in Oak Ridge, we had to be so active. We had to walk around. That’s the way it was. You spend so much time in the woods and on the boardwalks and walking here and walking there.
MR. HUNNICUTT: People don’t realize that Oak Ridge was really a desolate place, and they built the city there. You had a lot of wooded areas that people weren’t in. It was great for kids to be in and explore.
MRS. WILLIAMS: It was. I remember at one point will relive that Outer Drive, my dad built a little cage, and we had some chickens up there. That was before they built the flat tops behind that area. There was nothing behind us.
MR. HUNNICUTT: That area would probably be Orchard Circle out there.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yes, there was nothing there, and my dad had these chickens. I’ll tell you it was very interesting watching them build – but those flat tops up, even as a young girl. I would watch them do that because they would bring them in on trucks in sections of three. It was really interesting. It turned out that when my best friend moved into one right behind us – that’s how we met. We would catch the school bus together. I watched her house being built.
MR. HUNNICUTT: That’s quite a unique story.
MRS. WILLIAMS: It was really different to see how they did that. Then they furnished them, too.
MR. HUNNICUTT: They came already furnished. The story goes that they were building houses so fast that when kids would go to school and they would come back, they would get lost because the houses would go up.
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I guess the one bedroom was two sections.
MRS. WILLIAMS: First they built the undercarriage thing, and then they just brought them in. It was something.
MR. WILLIAMS: It didn’t take long to put those up.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Were the neighborhoods friendly in those days?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I wouldn’t think so. Of course, we knew the three families of us that came together, so we knew them, and we were all friendly with all of them.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Were there a lot of kids in the neighborhood that you lived in, Dick?
MR. WILLIAMS: No.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How about you, Muriel?
MRS. WILLIAMS: There were quite a few, yeah – mostly boys though.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you have any neighborhood games that you play?
MRS. WILLIAMS: No.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How about during the summer? Did either one of you visit the schools during the summer for the programs they had? Or did they have those early in your…?
MR. WILLIAMS: They didn’t have any, as I recall.
MRS. WILLIAMS: We had a wonderful playground at every one of those grammar schools – real nice playground. In fact, I think that Cedar Hill – they probably still have that. That was mainly what we did.
MR. HUNNICUTT: In 1945 when they dropped the bomb on Japan, you recall that, Dick?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Where were you?
MR. WILLIAMS: In Oak Ridge just doing the regular thing.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What did you think about it? Do you remember what you thought about it?
MR. WILLIAMS: I thought it was great.
MRS. WILLIAMS: That might’ve been when I was doing the newspaper – the bomb.
MR. WILLIAMS: That’s what you said previously. It was big news, and a lot of people celebrated.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MR. WILLIAMS: It was good to see the end of the war.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall your mother saying anything about that?
MR. WILLIAMS: No.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How about you, Muriel?
MRS. WILLIAMS: No, but I’m sure they did. It was a big thing. I remember having sort of a tainted feeling about the Japanese people because of that. They started this with us, and we would have been where we were if all this stuff hadn’t been happening. I wondered so many times if I had never left New York what my life would be. Oak Ridge changed all of our lives.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Not only did the making of the bomb – it also created a medical field for nuclear medicine that many, many thousands and millions of people are still living because of that. It was a devastation no doubt, but it did create a life-saving and other things related to it. [inaudible] I mentioned about March 1949 when they opened the gates to the city. The city was fenced in and you had to have a pass to get in and get back out. What do you remember about that – either one of you?
MR. WILLIAMS: Just another day really.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember the parade that they had?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And movie stars.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Oh yeah, I remember that. They had a big party afterward on Jefferson somewhere.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Oak Terrace?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, a big party.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did either one of you attend the parade?
MR. WILLIAMS: No.
MRS. WILLIAMS: I can’t remember if I did or not.
MR. WILLIAMS: That’s a long time ago.
MRS. WILLIAMS: I remember living in Oak Ridge and not being able to see my family in Michigan. It was so far away for one thing.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How about the American Museum of Atomic Energy? Did either of one of you ever go down there to the Museum?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I can remember putting my hand on the thing and my hair standing up. Of course, they don’t do that now.
MR. HUNNICUTT: They do that.
MR. WILLIAMS: They don’t radiate the dimes anymore.
MRS. WILLIAMS: I remember that – radiating the dimes.
MR. WILLIAMS: I remember that when it was a cafeteria. They used to set papers in there. I delivered papers at the men’s dormitory, and then I would stand in the cafeteria [inaudible] museum.
MR. HUNNICUTT: That’s kind of interesting. How did you get a paper route on that far end of town when you lived on the other end?
MR. WILLIAMS: I don’t know. I remember I just delivered the papers in the dormitory. I’d delivered to the house. I went to the dormitories.
MRS. WILLIAMS: They were all over the place there – the dormitories.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember collecting for the newspaper?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Money from the people? I do.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How did you keep up with who owed what and have they paid?
MRS. WILLIAMS: They had a little booklet the best I remember. You had everybody’s name and everything on it.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you collect once a week?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I wouldn’t swear to it, but I would say that would be practical.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You two knew each other in high school and dated in high school. Did you both graduate the same year?
MR. WILLIAMS: No. I graduated in 1949, and she did it in 1950.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you play any sports, Dick, when you’re in high school?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah, football and boxing team.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What positions did you play on the football team?
MR. WILLIAMS: Guard.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Was Ben Martin the coach then, or was that Mr. Francis?
MR. WILLIAMS: Ben Martin was the head coach, and John Francis was a line coach.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember how many games the team won?
MR. WILLIAMS: No.
MRS. WILLIAMS: They were good. I know that.
MR. WILLIAMS: I remember Clinton was a big rival.
MR. HUNNICUTT: When you graduated from Oak Ridge High School, what did you do after that?
MRS. WILLIAMS: You went in the Army.
MR. WILLIAMS: Right after high school – I’m drawing a blank right now.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you go to college later on?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I went a year down to – it was called Tennessee Polytechnic Institute in Cookeville for about a year. Then I went in the Army for a couple of years. I came back after that and worked at K-25 plant.
MRS. WILLIAMS: He wiped up uranium with a sponge.
MR. WILLIAMS: I started taking college courses at night school and decided I didn’t want to work shift work no more, so I started going to school full time.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What was your job at K-25?
MR. WILLIAMS: Process operator [inaudible] plant. I would take a lot of readings and cell instruments, shut down the cells in the background for maintenance.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you work shift work?
MR. WILLIAMS: Shift work, yeah. That’s one of the reasons I went to college.
MRS. WILLIAMS: I remember when we got our first TV, he was working 4 to 12. The TV never came on until 4 o’clock in the afternoon, and he never even got to see it while he was on that shift.
MR. WILLIAMS: There wasn’t anything on but “Howdy Doody” anyway – “Howdy Doody” and “Pinky Lee.”
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, Pinky Lee.
MR. HUNNICUTT: When you graduated, Muriel, what did you do?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I didn’t do much of anything. I was pregnant. Dick was in Korea, and I was living with my folks. Then when he came home, we moved to – we moved to 111 Indian Lane and a two-bedroom flattop, and he worked at Oak Ridge down at K 25. Then we bought a house over in Woodland. We had three children.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Whereabouts in Woodland did you live?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Goucher Circle.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember the address?
MR. WILLIAMS: 107? 205?
MR. HUNNICUTT: Was that a block house?
MRS. WILLIAMS: It was a block house, and I went by there. I have lunch once a month with some of my old high school buddies. We found out that our next-door neighbor there on Goucher Circle…
MR. WILLIAMS: Those houses were wonderful – those blockhouses.
MRS. WILLIAMS: The flooring was – that heat was in the flooring.
MR. WILLIAMS: That’s the first house we ever owned. At the time we were living in the house, you could buy the house. We bought that house for $3,300. I had a four percent loan out of there.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You mentioned you had three children. What gender were they?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Two girls and a boy.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What were their names?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Marty, Susan, and Richard.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Where are your children today?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Marty’s in Pennsylvania. Susan is here. Richard is in Missouri.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did they go through the Oak Ridge school system?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Marty and Susan – we left in 1961 after Dick graduated from UT. Richard had just been born, and the kids went to Woodland School over and Woodland – the grammar school there.
MR. HUNNICUTT: When your children went to school in Oak Ridge versus when you went to school in Oak Ridge, did you see much difference in the two different times?
MRS. WILLIAMS: No, I didn’t. We lived in a really nice neighborhood there. They were able to walk to school, and they had a lot of friends in the neighborhood. They put on plays and all kinds. It was really nice.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Where did you do your grocery shopping when you went shopping?
MR. WILLIAMS: The A&P.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And it was located where?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Where was it? I don’t know.
MR. WILLIAMS: I want to say where the Woodland Theater is now.
MR. HUNNICUTT: It was still in the square area – Jackson Square?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember the Downtown shopping area that we used to have in Oak Ridge?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yes, the mall?
MR. HUNNICUTT: It was called a mall …
MR. WILLIAMS: Before that?
MR. HUNNICUTT: Yeah, before that.
MRS. WILLIAMS: It was very nice because they had individual little stores, and I liked it. Very nice.
MR. HUNNICUTT: It’s too bad we still don’t have it.
MRS. WILLIAMS: I know. It’s going to be interesting to see what happens with that.
MR. HUNNICUTT: I don’t think it’s going to amount to a whole lot. We’ll see. Do you think that your children got a good education when it gets Oak Ridge schools?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you think you two got a good education when you went to Oak Ridge schools?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I want to say one thing. Our youngest daughter didn’t like to color. This was kindergarten. The teacher just couldn’t believe it. She called me at the school and said, “She doesn’t want to color.” Do you remember that?
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember some of the teachers at Woodland?
MRS. WILLIAMS: No, I don’t.
MR. HUNNICUTT: I’m just curious. I went to Woodland, too. I figure they would still be there. Let me ask you each individually. I’ll start with you, Muriel. What’s the greatest thing you’ve ever seen in your lifetime?
MRS. WILLIAMS: The greatest thing I’ve ever seen was New Zealand.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What was so great about New Zealand?
MRS. WILLIAMS: It’s pristine. Is that the right word? Pristine? Wherever you looked it was just absolutely beautiful.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How about you, Dick?
MR. WILLIAMS: I can’t top that. I liked New Zealand. It doesn’t ring a bell right now.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Overall how would you rate your time that you spent in Oak Ridge? How do you look at it? Was it a safe place to live in fun?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, definitely safe. For me coming from Kentucky, I’d never seen a hardwood basketball court until I got to Oak Ridge. Of course, they had the high school in the junior high and the elementary schools all had one. I think really living in Oak Ridge is probably the highlight of what I can recall.
MRS. WILLIAMS: It was definitely an experience that a lot of people did not experience. Like I said before, I often wonder what my life would be like if I was still in New York State. I’m glad that I was in Oak Ridge. I met an awful lot of wonderful people from every place.
MR. WILLIAMS: That’s what made it so great – they were from all different walks of life.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And everybody got along with each other.
MR. WILLIAMS: A very safe place, too.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, it was safe. Our parents didn’t worry about us wherever we went. I guess times have changed.
MR. WILLIAMS: I would say that was a highlight.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Well, is there anything we had talked about that you would like to talk about?
MR. WILLIAMS: No. I’m anxious to see some other interviews because I’m sure I’ll recognize them.
MR. HUNNICUTT: I mentioned to you how you can inquire into that.
MRS. WILLIAMS: I definitely will.
MR. HUNNICUTT: I think that will bring back a lot of memories. I know that after we do these interviews, the people say, “I wished I had remembered to say such and such.” When did you guys moved to this location you’re in now?
MR. WILLIAMS: About 14 years ago. We went from Miami, Fla., back to Tennessee. It was 1971, I think it was.
MRS. WILLIAMS: We didn’t go back into Oak Ridge.
MR. WILLIAMS: No. We lived in [inaudible] County for about 15 years out of the country on a small farm.
MRS. WILLIAMS: That was nice.
MR. WILLIAMS: Then we moved here. We like it here. It’s very convenient.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Why did you not moved back into Oak Ridge at that time?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Most of our friends at that time belonged to the Country Club, and they played golf. It was different than our lifestyle. I like to be around all kinds of different people. I didn’t want that again.
MR. HUNNICUTT: It’s been my pleasure to interview both of you. We thank you for letting us come into your home.
MRS. WILLIAMS: You’re welcome.
MR. HUNNICUTT: This will be a valuable tool for the city’s future. All these oral history interviews are just great, I think. Some young person maybe down the road may be doing a paper about daily life, pull up your interview, and take part of what you each of said just that. Your contribution as well appreciated. Thank you.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Thank you. I’m glad we could contribute.
[End of Interview]

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ORAL HISTORY OF RICHARD (DICK) AND MURIEL WILLIAMS
Interviewed by Don Hunnicutt
Filmed by BBB Communications, LLC.
December 17, 2013
MR. HUNNICUTT: This interview is for the Center of Oak Ridge Oral History. The date is December 17, 2012. I’m Don Hunnicutt in the home of Dick and Muriel Williams, 11735 Crystal Brook Lane, Knoxville, Tennessee, in Farragut, Tennessee, to take their oral history about living Oak Ridge, Tennessee. Let me start first with you, Dick. State your full name, place of birth, and date.
MR. WILLIAMS: Richard E. Williams – December 10, 1931. Campton, Kentucky.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And Muriel – the same for you, please.
MRS. WILLIAMS: September 3, 1931 – Sault Ste Marie, Michigan.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Dick, would you give me your father’s name and place of birth of you remember – and date?
MR. WILLIAMS: His name was Darley Williams. I think it was born in Campton, Kentucky. The date, I don’t know. I don’t really know a lot about it because he and my mother were divorced when I was about three years old.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Give me your mother’s name – maiden name.
MR. WILLIAMS: Her name was Agnes Gertrude Cox. She was born in Campton, Kentucky. I don’t know the exact date.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Muriel, your father’s name…
MRS. WILLIAMS: My father’s name was Austin Johnston. He was born in White Fish Point, Michigan, and my mother’s name was Elizabeth McCandless, and she was born in Sault Ste Marie, Michigan.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall the dates of their birth?
MRS. WILLIAMS: No.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Dick, what about your father’s school history? You mentioned that your mother had divorced, but do you recall anything about his school history?
MR. WILLIAMS: No.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Muriel, about your father?
MRS. WILLIAMS: He went to the University of Michigan.
MR. HUNNICUTT: He was a high school graduate and then went through college?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did he graduate?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Not from college, no. My mother was going there also to become a nurse, and they got married.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So your father’s profession was what?
MRS. WILLIAMS: When he first started working, he was an inspector on the tugboats for the government. Then they moved to Albany, New York. I’m not sure exactly what he did there. I know it was with the government. That’s how we got to Oak Ridge.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you have brothers and sisters?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I had one sister.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Was she younger or older than you?
MRS. WILLIAMS: She was nine years younger than me.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And her name was…?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Gretchen.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Dick, during your youth, did your mother work?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What was her profession?
MR. WILLIAMS: She was a secretary and other jobs. In Oak Ridge, she worked for the American Industrial – the bus company, transportation.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you have brothers and sisters?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, I have a sister – Gloria. She’s a year and a half older than me. She’s 83 and a half now. I have a half-brother and half-sister from my dad’s second marriage.
MR. HUNNICUTT: When you were growing up in Kentucky, tell me about your schooling. And how was school in those days?
MR. WILLIAMS: I think school in those days was much better than it is today because we respected our teachers, and we learned to read and spell. We were always good readers and spellers because we had competitions – spelling bees and stuff like that in class. Occasionally, we would get switched for being a mean little kid.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Some of us didn’t.
MR. WILLIAMS: I think a lot of my school was in a one-room class, like we went through grades two through eight in the same room.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Then do you remember some of the subjects you took in school? What were they?
MR. WILLIAMS: In grade school?
MR. HUNNICUTT: Yes.
MR. WILLIAMS: Reading, writing, and arithmetic.
MR. HUNNICUTT: The same standard.
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How about you, Muriel? How was your elementary school days?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I remember in New York before we moved to Tennessee, my teacher pulled down a map of the United States on the wall and said, “This is where Muriel is moving.” I remember thinking, “Wow,” that was so far away. I remember that school because I had to walk a long way to get the bus. I walked through an apple farm, but I liked it. I liked being out in the country. I’m a northerner, and I still like the cold weather. I guess that’s what I liked. And when I came to school down here, in Knoxville, it was hard for me because I was not accepted until I came to Oak Ridge. Then that first day of school was – yay, everyone was from somewhere else. It was great.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Dick, what was the typical dress that you remember wearing to school in those days as a boy?
MR. WILLIAMS: Just jeans and T-shirts.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How about you, Muriel?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Socks and shoes. I remember that – and dresses. Unless we were outside in the wintertime, we didn’t wear long pants.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you like school, Dick?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You mentioned, Muriel, you came to Knoxville. Tell me about that.
MRS. WILLIAMS: My dad came earlier to work. He was a purchasing agent for that Atomic Energy Commission. He came here to Oak Ridge early because they needed him, I guess. His other two friends that came with them – one was an engineer. His name was Leroy Jackson. He worked at AEC, too. The other man and family didn’t stay very long. They went out west to wherever that other place is. What was your question? Oh, about school, yeah. Do you want me to tell you about the first day of school?
MR. HUNNICUTT: Where did the family live in Knoxville?
MRS. WILLIAMS: We lived off Cumberland Avenue. I believe it was 22nd Street.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What type of house was that?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I think it was a house with two families – what you call this?
MR. WILLIAMS: Duplex.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Okay, duplex. I remember I had never seen a black person until my mother had hired somebody to do the ironing – that I remember seeing a black person until then. I couldn’t stop looking at her because she was so pretty – had pretty skin.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How old were you then?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I must have been 11 or 10.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You are talking about your first day at school in Knoxville. Kind of describe that for me.
MRS. WILLIAMS: No, Oak Ridge was the one I was trying to think about.
MR. HUNNICUTT: But did you attend school in Knoxville?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yes, I did.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember where that was?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yes, it was – do you know where 22nd Avenue is off Cumberland? The school was right up on the hill there. I don’t remember the name of that. I want to go by there someday and see if that school is still there. It’s an elementary school.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you walk to school when you went?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How long did the family live in Knoxville before you moved to Oak Ridge?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Gosh, I don’t remember. It wasn’t too long. It wasn’t even a year I don’t think.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You mentioned to me where the Manhattan Project office was. Tell me again where that was.
MRS. WILLIAMS: My dad told me that they worked in the Ford Motor Company building while they were building the AEC building. I don’t know whether that was when we were in Oak Ridge – I mean, Knoxville. I don’t know the dates of when that building was built. He may have been going into Oak Ridge while we were living in Knoxville. I don’t remember.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Yes, that building was on Central Avenue where the railroad salvage has their office building right now. So the family moved from Knoxville to Oak Ridge when housing was available. Where was the first home? Do you recall?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I recall my dad taking us on Sunday into Oak Ridge so we could see the house being built. On Outer Drive where we lived, all the houses – there were about five of them. They had already built the concrete basement and the subflooring and the chimneys for the fireplaces. They were all the same, so that’s the way they built everything. I remember my dad saying, “This is where we are going to live.” Then the next time I remember going there – we just moved in there. It was pretty neat.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall when you came to Oak Ridge, coming through the gate?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. Then when you were 12, you had to have a badge with your picture on it. Did you ever have one of those?
MR. HUNNICUTT: No, that was before my time. Let’s go back to you a minute, Dick. How come your family came to Oak Ridge? How did you get to Oak Ridge?
MR. WILLIAMS: By bus, of course. My mother came down and got a job as a secretary with American Industrial. It was a bus company. She was able to get my sister and I living together permanent.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember the first house you lived in – where was?
MR. WILLIAMS: It was an E-2 apartment in the east end of town near – the Elm Grove area.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall what it looked like inside an E-2 apartment?
MR. WILLIAMS: It was two bedrooms upstairs, and I guess the living room and kitchen down. It was pretty nice as I recall.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And you had to share a room with your sister?
MR. WILLIAMS: No, she and my mom shared a room. I had my own room. We had one bathroom, and we all share that.
MR. HUNNICUTT: At what age was that? Do you remember?
MR. WILLIAMS: It was probably 1945, I believe it was. I had to be about 13.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did your mom come before the family did to get a job?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall anything she said about how she got the job or where she went there, anything of that nature?
MR. WILLIAMS: No, I don’t.
MR. HUNNICUTT: By living in the E-2, did you go to Elm Grove School? Was that your school?
MR. WILLIAMS: No, we moved to a flattop on Michigan Avenue. I went to Pine Valley in the eighth grade.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember what the inside of the flattop look like?
MR. WILLIAMS: It was plywood inside and out.
MRS. WILLIAMS: A lot of plywood.
MR. WILLIAMS: It had unique windows. It was tall and narrow on one side of it, and there were some smaller ones that just pushed easily out.
MRS. WILLIAMS: The first house we had after we married was a flattop – two bedrooms.
MR. WILLIAMS: We enjoyed the house. [inaudible]
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall how the flattop was heated?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah, coal stove. We had a coal bin outside where they delivered the bin. There was no cooling there either.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Was it hot in the summer time?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did the coal stove keep the flattop fairly warm?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes. Very warm.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Muriel, describe the house that you lived in on Outer Drive. What kind of house was it?
MRS. WILLIAMS: It was a B house – two bedrooms. I had one sister, so we shared the bedroom. It was very nice. It had quite a large living room with a big fireplace and bookcases on both sides. There was room enough in the kitchen for the four of us to eat. It was nice. It was a cemesto.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember what type of heat was in the house?
MRS. WILLIAMS: It was a coal furnace. They delivered coal – they, being the government, I guess. Then I guess they switched later on to something else. I don’t know what.
MR. HUNNICUTT: It was gas. They switch to gas many years later. Where did they put the coal? Do you recall in the cemesto house?
MRS. WILLIAMS: No. I remember there was a coal chute. They put it right in the area where the furnace was. It was a coal chute there. I remember that now.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did they come on a frequency? Or did you tell them when to come? Do you remember anything like that – about delivering the coal?
MRS. WILLIAMS: No, I don’t remember anything like that. That was not important to me as a kid.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What did you think about Oak Ridge, Dick, when you first got here?
MR. WILLIAMS: Wonderful. It was great. I remember coming in Elza Gate. I thought the Clinch River was the most beautiful thing I’d ever seen in my life. I had never seen anything like that in Kentucky. It was real clear water. It was a most striking thing to me. Plus, Oak Ridge was very, very different. Policeman rode horseback I guess it was probably the Army. The streets were muddy, and it was just different.
MRS. WILLIAMS: There was always something going on.
MR. WILLIAMS: There was a lot of construction.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Building things.
MR. WILLIAMS: Back then, the population was like 70,000 or 80,000 people when they were building the place. Not everybody lived in Oak Ridge. It was nice – unique.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What did you think about it, Muriel, when you first came?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I was so happy because I was accepted. Everybody, all my friends and everybody that I was going to school with was from someplace else. My best friend was from Maine. They were from California, everywhere. Two obnoxious guys that I met were from Texas. This one guy is still our best friend, and he knows that I say that about him. They had us meet in the cafeteria the first day of school, and everybody was supposed to stand up and say where they were from. These two guys from Texas – everybody was [inaudible]. It was fine. I was so happy to be there with everybody else from somewhere else.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What was the grade that you first attended at Elm Grove?
MRS. WILLIAMS: It must’ve been the seventh grade – sixth or seventh.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you feel like that you were ahead or behind or up to pace with the teaching standards there at Elm Grove?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I felt that I was up to standard. I went to Pine Valley, and I went to Cedar Hill. I think I went to both of those schools in one year. I don’t remember what year that was.
MR. HUNNICUTT: That’s kind of strange because where you told me you lived was in the Pine Valley district. Do you recall why you went to Cedar Hill?
MRS. WILLIAMS: It was closer actually. The school was closer. Evidently they thought it was anyway.
MR. WILLIAMS: It was really.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember New York Avenue – how steep that was going up New York Avenue?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Oh gosh, yes. I walked it.
MR. HUNNICUTT: There was a shopping center on New York Avenue – the Pine Valley Shopping Center.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Right across from the school. In fact, almost every little area had their own little shopping center. I’m sure most people have told you about it. They had a grocery store, a barbershop, a drugstore. Anything else?
MR. WILLIAMS: Fire station.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, fire station. It was very nice.
MR. HUNNICUTT: The classrooms – when you went to Elm Grove versus when you were out of state – how did they compare?
MRS. WILLIAMS: We had everything in Oak Ridge in the school. We had everything that we needed – all the books we needed. The teachers all had to have master’s degrees, didn’t they?
MR. WILLIAMS: I’m not sure.
MRS. WILLIAMS: We were well cared for.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What do you remember about the school setting, Dick?
MR. WILLIAMS: Good. Pleasant.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember some of your teachers – their names?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I remember in high school, the algebra teacher was named Ms. Thomas, and Margaret Mars was also a teacher. Of course the coaches – Nick Orlando. Those are the three ones I remember. I think we had a line coach in high school – Kern, I believe his name was. Of course Ben Martin was the head coach back there in high school. Who am I leaving out? Later on John Francis was the coach there. He played at the University of Tennessee in college. He was the guy that made two blocks in the same play on two different guys, which is unique.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you have a bicycle when you are in Oak Ridge?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I did.
MR. WILLIAMS: No.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you just walk wherever you wanted to go? Did you ride the bus any?
MR. WILLIAMS: No, walked. I walked to school, but there was a city bus. It didn’t cost anything to ride it for free. I remember when I went to the junior high, I rode the bus because Michigan Avenue would’ve definitely been a long walk. I rode the bus to that. In high school, we walked.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You mentioned, Muriel, about boardwalks. Tell me about the boardwalks.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Oh gosh, I can even smell them what I think about it. You know how fresh wood smells? There was a boardwalk behind the houses on Outer Drive – on the south side of Outer Drive. There was a boardwalk that went east and west. I always took that one to Pine Valley. They were just all over the place. They were wonderful. To be outside was fun.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall on New York Avenue on the backside of the houses if you are going up New York, there was kind of like a valley down in that area. Do you recall anything being in there? Did you ever go down through that way toward Pine Valley? Do you recall anything?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I don’t recall anything being there.
MR. HUNNICUTT: We used to have a ball field in that area. It just be like that would be suitable, but apparently not.
MRS. WILLIAMS: I don’t remember anything there.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You mentioned you had a bicycle.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yes, it was given to me when we lived in New York. I didn’t ride it much in Oak Ridge because it was so hilly.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Were the streets paved when you lived on Outer Drive?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I can’t remember, but I doubt it because they had those little – I want to say shacks, but they were little places for convenience stores – where workers went and bought their snacks and cokes and things. What you call those things? They had one on the corner of New York and Outer Drive. It was just a little shed about as big as this room, and a couple people worked there, and they sold drinks and snacks and sandwiches and things are the workers that were putting up the other homes and paving streets or whatever they were doing there.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You’re the first person that’s ever mention that.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Really?
MR. HUNNICUTT: Yes.
MRS. WILLIAMS: They were quite frequently all over because there were so many people working there. Like Dick said, the Army on their horses. I remember when they left, they sold their horses to some man, and he had a riding stable. It was between my house and where you go down to Oliver Springs.
MR. WILLIAMS: That was G Road.
MRS. WILLIAMS: G Road – do you know about G Road?
MR. HUNNICUTT: Yeah.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Do you remember there was a riding stable there? The horses all on their rump had the stamp for the Army.
MR. HUNNICUTT: It was a government stamp. You would go down to G Road. Where about down G Road do you recall the stable being?
MRS. WILLIAMS: It was within walking distance. I don’t remember. We walked down there all the time, and I very seldom rode the horses, but I liked being around them. When I lived on Outer Drive, being a kid – at one point, I even delivered the News-Sentinel. I just remembered that.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How about you, Dick? What did you do for earning money when you were a teenager?
MR. WILLIAMS: I worked at the Texaco gas station after school and during the summer.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Where was that located?
MR. WILLIAMS: Down south…
MRS. WILLIAMS: Tennessee and…
MR. WILLIAMS: Back where Big Ed’s Pizza is now. The station was there before Oak Ridge was built I’m told. I’m sure it was.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember how much money you made working there?
MR. WILLIAMS: Probably 50 cents a day. That sounds low, doesn’t it? I don’t recall.
MR. HUNNICUTT: It’s probably about right.
MR. WILLIAMS: I think gas was selling like 17 cents a gallon at the time – maybe even cheaper. I pumped gas primarily is what I did.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you work every day during the summer?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you have any other jobs in the summer when you were working?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I was a lifeguard at the swimming pool one summer.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What do you remember about the swimming pool that was so unique?
MRS. WILLIAMS: It was so be. It was so big.
MR. WILLIAMS: Very nice.
MRS. WILLIAMS: There wasn’t much around that that time either. It was sort of out in the open.
MR. WILLIAMS: First it was the sand, and then they built the concrete. It was right at Grove Center.
MRS. WILLIAMS: I used to babysit, and I would make a quarter an hour. I remember one time I babysat these two boys. I had to feed them supper, give them a bath, put them to bed, and there was no TV or anything. I don’t remember what I did. I made a quarter an hour.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How old were you when you are doing that?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I was in junior high or high school. They lived right down the road from us.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do either one of you remember home milk delivery?
MR. WILLIAMS: Oh, yeah.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What you remember about it, Dick?
MR. WILLIAMS: It was fresh.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Glass bottles?
MR. WILLIAMS: Glass bottles, yeah. Paper top, I think. I think that’s the way it was.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember who the dairy delivery company was?
MR. WILLIAMS: No. I don’t.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What about other door-to-door salesman? Do you all remember any other…?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I don’t think that was allowed when we were kids.
MR. WILLIAMS: I don’t recall any door-to-door salesman.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You mentioned you delivered the newspaper – the Knoxville News-Sentinel. How old were you?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I don’t know. I was fairly young, I think. I remember the day the war ended. It was in the paper, and I carried the paper that – the day the war ended.
MR. HUNNICUTT: That would be 1945. In junior high school, where was the junior high located when either one of you went there?
MR. WILLIAMS: Jefferson.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Jefferson – that’s where we both went.
MR. WILLIAMS: It was right off of Illinois Avenue.
MRS. WILLIAMS: It was Robertsville.
MR. WILLIAMS: Robertsville. The other one was built long before the bridge.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember something unique about that building?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I remember that the gym – the old gym was there.
MR. WILLIAMS: The gym was nice.
MRS. WILLIAMS: It belonged to the school – I guess it was the Robertsville School.
MR. HUNNICUTT: It was Robertsville. That was the Robertsville Community. Do you remember the round fire escapes that they had the top floors on each side of the building? You could slide down them.
MR. WILLIAMS: No, I don’t recall that.
MR. HUNNICUTT: They had those. That was one of the unique things about the building. I think the Manhattan Project put those in. That wasn’t there originally. From there, you went to the high school. Where was the high school located?
MR. WILLIAMS: Up on the hill in Jackson Square.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You two didn’t know each other for some time. We’ll get to that. When you went to high school, Muriel, what did you notice different between junior high and high school?
MRS. WILLIAMS: The high school was new, and Robertsville was not.
MR. WILLIAMS: There were a lot more people there.
MRS. WILLIAMS: It was bigger. It was much bigger. It was very nice.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What type of classes did you take in high school, Dick?
MR. WILLIAMS: Math, English, typing – I took typing, Latin, general science.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Just for curiosity, why would a boy take typing in those days? Why did you take typing?
MR. WILLIAMS: I can’t recall. I think I dropped out – I know. I dropped out of second year Latin and took typing because I didn’t really enjoy the Latin and the teacher – sorry to say.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How about you, Muriel? What type of classes did you take when you were in high school?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Of course I took what I had to – English. I think we had to take a certain amount of math, too. I took home economics. That was one of the things that a lot of the girls took back then. I also took typing.
MR. WILLIAMS: Everybody had to take gym, too.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Oh, yeah, gym. That was a big thing.
MR. WILLIAMS: And a good thing.
MRS. WILLIAMS: And a good thing.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall who the gym teacher was for the girls in those days?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I remember what she looked like. I can’t remember her name. She was very – they were all very strict. When I was at Pine Valley, I got hit on the hand with a ruler. I don’t remember what I did. That’s the only time I’ve ever been punished in school. But in high school, I did fine. I met Dick’s sister first, and she said “I’ve got a brother I’d like you to meet.” That was it.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall either one of you how the weather was in those days? Did it seem to be colder than it is now?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, it snowed every year. I can remember when we used a sleigh ride down [inaudible]?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Michigan Avenue?
MR. WILLIAMS: No, it was Pennsylvania I think.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Oh yeah, Pennsylvania.
MR. WILLIAMS: It snowed every year the best I recall.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did they call off school like they do now?
MRS. WILLIAMS: No.
MR. WILLIAMS: No, I don’t remember school getting called off.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Because some of the kids could get there. Some of them couldn’t. We’d walk there.
MR. WILLIAMS: I don’t remember it got bad enough that we couldn’t drive.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you take any music classes – either one of you – when you were in school?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I did. I took choir. I guess it was called choir.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Who was your teacher?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I don’t know.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember Miss Lyman?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I remember the name.
MR. WILLIAMS: I remember the name – Lyman.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Was she a music teacher?
MR. HUNNICUTT: Yes.
MR. WILLIAMS: I remember that name.
MR. HUNNICUTT: She was the band director at Jefferson for many, many years. Very strict and never married – a very strict lady, a very private lady. Very good at what she did.
MR. WILLIAMS: Their were several old maid school teachers as I recall.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Some of the teachers you mentioned I had in school as well. These teachers were young men and women that came. They served their whole career at Oak Ridge. Did you ever collect coke bottles, Dick, for deposit?
MR. WILLIAMS: No.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you?
MRS. WILLIAMS: No. We didn’t – in our house, we didn’t drink Coca-Cola or any drinks like that.
MR. HUNNICUTT: In those days, there wasn’t TVs. There were radios obviously. Did you listen to the radio very much?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What were some of the programs you like to listen to?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Music mainly.
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Being from the north, I didn’t care for country music at all. I didn’t like Elvis Presley. I was a teenager, and he was a teenager, and I thought he was a greaser.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What’s your description of the greaser?
MRS. WILLIAMS: A guy that puts something on his hair and slicks it back.
MR. HUNNICUTT: If I remember right, in those days that seemed to be the style for boys?
MRS. WILLIAMS: No, not all of them.
MR. WILLIAMS: [inaudible] there were very few guys that slicked their hair back. Most of the guys wore flat tops.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Short cut hair. What other things – Dick, you mentioned you were a lifeguard at the swimming pool. Did you visit the bowling alleys or skating rinks?
MR. WILLIAMS: I used to set pins in the bowling alley at [inaudible]. It was just across from where the – there is the Center Theater, we called it. I think I got so much a line – like nine cents a line may be.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall how you went about setting the pins?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah, by hand. When the automatic – I think it was duck bins just sitting behind. You put them in the frame.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How about you, Muriel? Other than babysitting, did you have any other job?
MRS. WILLIAMS: No, not when I was in high school. No, we went down – what was the name, that place where we went? I want to call it Fox Den, but that wasn’t it.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Wildcat Den?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Wildcat Den. That was our favorite hangout. That was a wonderful thing to have for high school kids. We had pool tables, ping-pong tables, jukebox. It was just a really nice place for high school kids to go.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember where it was located?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, right down – it was an old cafeteria right beside it.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Central Cafeteria?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Central Cafeteria.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did either one of you ever eat in the Central Cafeteria?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MRS. WILLIAMS: I don’t know whether I did or not.
MR. WILLIAMS: We have eaten there.
MRS. WILLIAMS: We didn’t eat out much in those days.
MR. WILLIAMS: It seemed to me like some of the guys would hang out in the Central Cafeteria there to get something to eat. I think that was the only thing I was open. I remember several guys sitting around a couple tables.
MRS. WILLIAMS: You remember the Ridge Theater and the drugstore next to it where they had a little soda bar and they had some food there.
MR. HUNNICUTT: The Service Drugstore.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yep.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What else do you remember in Jackson Square store-wise?
MR. WILLIAMS: The drugstore, the theater…
MRS. WILLIAMS: There was a shoe repair shop, and there was a real nice…
MR. WILLIAMS: The photography shop.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Men’s store there, too.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Samuel’s.
MR. WILLIAMS: Samuel’s was up in Jackson Square. This was down by the Ridge Theater.
MRS. WILLIAMS: That’s still Jackson Square. There was all kinds of – the department store. Was that Miller’s?
MR. WILLIAMS: That might’ve been later on.
MRS. WILLIAMS: There were a couple of women’s shops there, too.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall, Muriel, where your mother did her grocery shopping?
MRS. WILLIAMS: No, I don’t, but I remember that drugstore there at Jackson Square on the corner.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Williams Drugstore.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I remember standing in line there for cigarettes with her. My mother and dad both smoked, and I guess you could only buy them at certain times of the day. I don’t know – they were rationed, I guess. They had one of these little machines where they could make their own cigarettes and then put a paper in it and some tobacco, and they would roll it and make the cigarettes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What about you, Dick? What do you remember in Jackson Square? Do you remember anything about going to that Center Theater?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What kind of movies did they show at the Center?
MR. WILLIAMS: War movies, I think. Back at that time, a lot of them were.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Cowboy movies – there were a lot of cowboy movies – Westerns.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you ever go to the other parts of Oak Ridge for any particular reason?
MRS. WILLIAMS: We would go to Grove Center to the movies there.
MR. WILLIAMS: Of course the swimming pool.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What about the skating rink? Did you ever visit the skating rink?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah, down on Jefferson – the skating rink.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You mentioned that you met Dick’s sister first, and I guess she introduced him to you. What did you guys do when you went on a date? Where did you go on a date?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I don’t think we should tell him, do you? I remember one time – I don’t remember where we are going. I guess we were going to Knoxville. We stopped at the bar between Oak Ridge and Clinton. It was on the right-hand side. There was a tree growing up the middle of it – right in the middle of it. There was a guy there with the big overalls on, and he had a gun here. I remember that. There was not much to do. We use to go to Knoxville once in a while. I guess maybe that was when we were married. We would go with other couples to eat there.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So when you were dating, did you have a car, Dick?
MR. WILLIAMS: No.
MR. HUNNICUTT: So he was either on foot or rode the bus wherever.
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Of course we had the recreation places, and there was one right there. What was the name of that? Is it a library now or was the library?
MR. HUNNICUTT: On Kentucky Avenue?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Ridge Rec Hall.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, we used to hang out there, too.
MR. HUNNICUTT: The library was downstairs.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MR. HUNNICUTT: As long as you are in each other’s company, didn’t matter where you are going.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Right.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What about the dances on the tennis courts? Tell me about those.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Mostly, I was too young to do that. But I remember hearing the music and seeing it and thinking “This is a great thing.” It was for those young people who were working there.
MR. WILLIAMS: It was old people, too – older than us.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Muriel, what did your family do for recreation?
MRS. WILLIAMS: At one point, my grandparents – one set of my grandparents – my grandfather was a dentist. He retired, and they moved to Crossville. I don’t know what you would call it – a farm.
MR. WILLIAMS: A homestead. It was built back during the war.
MRS. WILLIAMS: We use to go there, and my dad had horses and cows – not horses, but cows there. They lived at 111 or 11 Deep Jaw Road. We use to go there all the time. I didn’t really like it because it was weekend, and I was taken from my kids – my friends. I was up in the country. They have an area there where you can swim, and I remember I go there…
MR. WILLIAMS: It was a state park.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Cumberland Mountain State Park?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, Cumberland Mountain State Park. I would go there and swim. Sometimes I could talk one of my friends into going over there with me on the weekends. That’s a lot what we did. Also, my mother and dad met this couple, and they were from Gatlinburg. Their family owned a motel up there. We’d go to Gatlinburg a lot. In fact, I learned to drive on the main street in Gatlinburg do shift car from the guy who – probably he still owns it, and his father owned a riding stable. That was a long time ago. You couldn’t do that now.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What about you, Dick? Do you recall what the family did for fun and recreation?
MR. WILLIAMS: We didn’t do much of anything at all. We probably couldn’t afford vacations and stuff like that.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did your mother work through the day, or where she on shift work?
MR. WILLIAMS: No, she worked during the day.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What do you recall her job duties were?
MR. WILLIAMS: Secretary – typing, probably I guess.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember where she had to go for the job location was?
MR. WILLIAMS: It was a bus terminal.
MR. HUNNICUTT: On the Turnpike?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, the Turnpike. It was a big bus terminal.
MR. WILLIAMS: There was a big bus terminal there and a big garage there for the buses – right across from the Hospital area now.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You probably haven’t been to Oak Ridge lately, but where that big bus garage is there is a huge assisted-living facility.
MR. WILLIAMS: I haven’t seen it.
MRS. WILLIAMS: We were in Oak Ridge on Sunday, but what we need to do is drive around and see these things. We still have friends in Oak Ridge, and one of my best friends told me about that place. Now the Alexander Hotel is being renovated. Of course, you know that. One of my friends called me the other day, and she said “You need to pack your bag. I made a reservation for you at the Alexander Hotel.”
MR. HUNNICUTT: They do have people on the waiting list.
MRS. WILLIAMS: That’s what I’ve heard.
MR. HUNNICUTT: That is one of the greatest thing that’s happened in Oak Ridge…
MRS. WILLIAMS: I was really glad to hear that.
MR. HUNNICUTT: That is a historical building if there ever was one.
MRS. WILLIAMS: We met the minister of the church right behind it the other day.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Chapel on the Hill.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Chapel on the Hill. That was the only church that I remember for years there.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember telephone party lines?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Tell me what you remember about that. What is a party line? I guess I should ask.
MR. WILLIAMS: There was more than one phone connected.
MRS. WILLIAMS: We would be on the same line.
MR. WILLIAMS: I think two or three families maybe.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Our phone would ring like three times, and their phone would ring four times. Somebody else’s would ring two. That’s how you did it. Then when you were calling, you picked up. If somebody was talking, you just were gentle.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Or you stayed on their line and listened.
MRS. WILLIAMS: No, never did that. But now that you mention it, that would’ve been fun.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall rolling stores that came around throughout the city?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yes. That was after they did away with the little eating area – the little sheds there.
MR. WILLIAMS: I remember those. There was a guy – I can’t remember his last name. His first name was Tommy. His dad owned some of those.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Muriel, what was Christmas like in your house?
MRS. WILLIAMS: It was really nice. We always had a nice tree, and packages. It was exciting. I remember when I found out there wasn’t any Santa Claus, I was crushed. My mother was cleaning the bathroom, and I said “You know, a friend of mine told me that there wasn’t any Santa Claus.” She said “There isn’t.” I was crushed. That was before I moved to Tennessee.
MR. HUNNICUTT: When you moved to Oak Ridge, was Christmas any different?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yes, because living in the North, once it snowed up north, we never saw the grass until the spring. In Tennessee, it wasn’t like that. The kids – I would build a fort once it snowed, and kept it all winter long, and it would get like ice. I have a lot of wonderful memories of playing in the snow, snow rides, sleds, and things like that. And then not so much in Tennessee because we just didn’t have…
MR. HUNNICUTT: You were talking about it not snowing much. Were you like a tomboy when you are in Oak Ridge?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yes, I think I was more of a tomboy. But you know, when we were kids in Oak Ridge, we had to be so active. We had to walk around. That’s the way it was. You spend so much time in the woods and on the boardwalks and walking here and walking there.
MR. HUNNICUTT: People don’t realize that Oak Ridge was really a desolate place, and they built the city there. You had a lot of wooded areas that people weren’t in. It was great for kids to be in and explore.
MRS. WILLIAMS: It was. I remember at one point will relive that Outer Drive, my dad built a little cage, and we had some chickens up there. That was before they built the flat tops behind that area. There was nothing behind us.
MR. HUNNICUTT: That area would probably be Orchard Circle out there.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yes, there was nothing there, and my dad had these chickens. I’ll tell you it was very interesting watching them build – but those flat tops up, even as a young girl. I would watch them do that because they would bring them in on trucks in sections of three. It was really interesting. It turned out that when my best friend moved into one right behind us – that’s how we met. We would catch the school bus together. I watched her house being built.
MR. HUNNICUTT: That’s quite a unique story.
MRS. WILLIAMS: It was really different to see how they did that. Then they furnished them, too.
MR. HUNNICUTT: They came already furnished. The story goes that they were building houses so fast that when kids would go to school and they would come back, they would get lost because the houses would go up.
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I guess the one bedroom was two sections.
MRS. WILLIAMS: First they built the undercarriage thing, and then they just brought them in. It was something.
MR. WILLIAMS: It didn’t take long to put those up.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Were the neighborhoods friendly in those days?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I wouldn’t think so. Of course, we knew the three families of us that came together, so we knew them, and we were all friendly with all of them.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Were there a lot of kids in the neighborhood that you lived in, Dick?
MR. WILLIAMS: No.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How about you, Muriel?
MRS. WILLIAMS: There were quite a few, yeah – mostly boys though.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you have any neighborhood games that you play?
MRS. WILLIAMS: No.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How about during the summer? Did either one of you visit the schools during the summer for the programs they had? Or did they have those early in your…?
MR. WILLIAMS: They didn’t have any, as I recall.
MRS. WILLIAMS: We had a wonderful playground at every one of those grammar schools – real nice playground. In fact, I think that Cedar Hill – they probably still have that. That was mainly what we did.
MR. HUNNICUTT: In 1945 when they dropped the bomb on Japan, you recall that, Dick?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Where were you?
MR. WILLIAMS: In Oak Ridge just doing the regular thing.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What did you think about it? Do you remember what you thought about it?
MR. WILLIAMS: I thought it was great.
MRS. WILLIAMS: That might’ve been when I was doing the newspaper – the bomb.
MR. WILLIAMS: That’s what you said previously. It was big news, and a lot of people celebrated.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MR. WILLIAMS: It was good to see the end of the war.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you recall your mother saying anything about that?
MR. WILLIAMS: No.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How about you, Muriel?
MRS. WILLIAMS: No, but I’m sure they did. It was a big thing. I remember having sort of a tainted feeling about the Japanese people because of that. They started this with us, and we would have been where we were if all this stuff hadn’t been happening. I wondered so many times if I had never left New York what my life would be. Oak Ridge changed all of our lives.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Not only did the making of the bomb – it also created a medical field for nuclear medicine that many, many thousands and millions of people are still living because of that. It was a devastation no doubt, but it did create a life-saving and other things related to it. [inaudible] I mentioned about March 1949 when they opened the gates to the city. The city was fenced in and you had to have a pass to get in and get back out. What do you remember about that – either one of you?
MR. WILLIAMS: Just another day really.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember the parade that they had?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And movie stars.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Oh yeah, I remember that. They had a big party afterward on Jefferson somewhere.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Oak Terrace?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, a big party.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did either one of you attend the parade?
MR. WILLIAMS: No.
MRS. WILLIAMS: I can’t remember if I did or not.
MR. WILLIAMS: That’s a long time ago.
MRS. WILLIAMS: I remember living in Oak Ridge and not being able to see my family in Michigan. It was so far away for one thing.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How about the American Museum of Atomic Energy? Did either of one of you ever go down there to the Museum?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I can remember putting my hand on the thing and my hair standing up. Of course, they don’t do that now.
MR. HUNNICUTT: They do that.
MR. WILLIAMS: They don’t radiate the dimes anymore.
MRS. WILLIAMS: I remember that – radiating the dimes.
MR. WILLIAMS: I remember that when it was a cafeteria. They used to set papers in there. I delivered papers at the men’s dormitory, and then I would stand in the cafeteria [inaudible] museum.
MR. HUNNICUTT: That’s kind of interesting. How did you get a paper route on that far end of town when you lived on the other end?
MR. WILLIAMS: I don’t know. I remember I just delivered the papers in the dormitory. I’d delivered to the house. I went to the dormitories.
MRS. WILLIAMS: They were all over the place there – the dormitories.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember collecting for the newspaper?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Money from the people? I do.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How did you keep up with who owed what and have they paid?
MRS. WILLIAMS: They had a little booklet the best I remember. You had everybody’s name and everything on it.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you collect once a week?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I wouldn’t swear to it, but I would say that would be practical.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You two knew each other in high school and dated in high school. Did you both graduate the same year?
MR. WILLIAMS: No. I graduated in 1949, and she did it in 1950.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you play any sports, Dick, when you’re in high school?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah, football and boxing team.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What positions did you play on the football team?
MR. WILLIAMS: Guard.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Was Ben Martin the coach then, or was that Mr. Francis?
MR. WILLIAMS: Ben Martin was the head coach, and John Francis was a line coach.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember how many games the team won?
MR. WILLIAMS: No.
MRS. WILLIAMS: They were good. I know that.
MR. WILLIAMS: I remember Clinton was a big rival.
MR. HUNNICUTT: When you graduated from Oak Ridge High School, what did you do after that?
MRS. WILLIAMS: You went in the Army.
MR. WILLIAMS: Right after high school – I’m drawing a blank right now.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you go to college later on?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I went a year down to – it was called Tennessee Polytechnic Institute in Cookeville for about a year. Then I went in the Army for a couple of years. I came back after that and worked at K-25 plant.
MRS. WILLIAMS: He wiped up uranium with a sponge.
MR. WILLIAMS: I started taking college courses at night school and decided I didn’t want to work shift work no more, so I started going to school full time.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What was your job at K-25?
MR. WILLIAMS: Process operator [inaudible] plant. I would take a lot of readings and cell instruments, shut down the cells in the background for maintenance.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did you work shift work?
MR. WILLIAMS: Shift work, yeah. That’s one of the reasons I went to college.
MRS. WILLIAMS: I remember when we got our first TV, he was working 4 to 12. The TV never came on until 4 o’clock in the afternoon, and he never even got to see it while he was on that shift.
MR. WILLIAMS: There wasn’t anything on but “Howdy Doody” anyway – “Howdy Doody” and “Pinky Lee.”
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, Pinky Lee.
MR. HUNNICUTT: When you graduated, Muriel, what did you do?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I didn’t do much of anything. I was pregnant. Dick was in Korea, and I was living with my folks. Then when he came home, we moved to – we moved to 111 Indian Lane and a two-bedroom flattop, and he worked at Oak Ridge down at K 25. Then we bought a house over in Woodland. We had three children.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Whereabouts in Woodland did you live?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Goucher Circle.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember the address?
MR. WILLIAMS: 107? 205?
MR. HUNNICUTT: Was that a block house?
MRS. WILLIAMS: It was a block house, and I went by there. I have lunch once a month with some of my old high school buddies. We found out that our next-door neighbor there on Goucher Circle…
MR. WILLIAMS: Those houses were wonderful – those blockhouses.
MRS. WILLIAMS: The flooring was – that heat was in the flooring.
MR. WILLIAMS: That’s the first house we ever owned. At the time we were living in the house, you could buy the house. We bought that house for $3,300. I had a four percent loan out of there.
MR. HUNNICUTT: You mentioned you had three children. What gender were they?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Two girls and a boy.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What were their names?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Marty, Susan, and Richard.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Where are your children today?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Marty’s in Pennsylvania. Susan is here. Richard is in Missouri.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Did they go through the Oak Ridge school system?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Marty and Susan – we left in 1961 after Dick graduated from UT. Richard had just been born, and the kids went to Woodland School over and Woodland – the grammar school there.
MR. HUNNICUTT: When your children went to school in Oak Ridge versus when you went to school in Oak Ridge, did you see much difference in the two different times?
MRS. WILLIAMS: No, I didn’t. We lived in a really nice neighborhood there. They were able to walk to school, and they had a lot of friends in the neighborhood. They put on plays and all kinds. It was really nice.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Where did you do your grocery shopping when you went shopping?
MR. WILLIAMS: The A&P.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And it was located where?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Where was it? I don’t know.
MR. WILLIAMS: I want to say where the Woodland Theater is now.
MR. HUNNICUTT: It was still in the square area – Jackson Square?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember the Downtown shopping area that we used to have in Oak Ridge?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yes, the mall?
MR. HUNNICUTT: It was called a mall …
MR. WILLIAMS: Before that?
MR. HUNNICUTT: Yeah, before that.
MRS. WILLIAMS: It was very nice because they had individual little stores, and I liked it. Very nice.
MR. HUNNICUTT: It’s too bad we still don’t have it.
MRS. WILLIAMS: I know. It’s going to be interesting to see what happens with that.
MR. HUNNICUTT: I don’t think it’s going to amount to a whole lot. We’ll see. Do you think that your children got a good education when it gets Oak Ridge schools?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you think you two got a good education when you went to Oak Ridge schools?
MRS. WILLIAMS: I want to say one thing. Our youngest daughter didn’t like to color. This was kindergarten. The teacher just couldn’t believe it. She called me at the school and said, “She doesn’t want to color.” Do you remember that?
MR. HUNNICUTT: Do you remember some of the teachers at Woodland?
MRS. WILLIAMS: No, I don’t.
MR. HUNNICUTT: I’m just curious. I went to Woodland, too. I figure they would still be there. Let me ask you each individually. I’ll start with you, Muriel. What’s the greatest thing you’ve ever seen in your lifetime?
MRS. WILLIAMS: The greatest thing I’ve ever seen was New Zealand.
MR. HUNNICUTT: What was so great about New Zealand?
MRS. WILLIAMS: It’s pristine. Is that the right word? Pristine? Wherever you looked it was just absolutely beautiful.
MR. HUNNICUTT: How about you, Dick?
MR. WILLIAMS: I can’t top that. I liked New Zealand. It doesn’t ring a bell right now.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Overall how would you rate your time that you spent in Oak Ridge? How do you look at it? Was it a safe place to live in fun?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, definitely safe. For me coming from Kentucky, I’d never seen a hardwood basketball court until I got to Oak Ridge. Of course, they had the high school in the junior high and the elementary schools all had one. I think really living in Oak Ridge is probably the highlight of what I can recall.
MRS. WILLIAMS: It was definitely an experience that a lot of people did not experience. Like I said before, I often wonder what my life would be like if I was still in New York State. I’m glad that I was in Oak Ridge. I met an awful lot of wonderful people from every place.
MR. WILLIAMS: That’s what made it so great – they were from all different walks of life.
MR. HUNNICUTT: And everybody got along with each other.
MR. WILLIAMS: A very safe place, too.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, it was safe. Our parents didn’t worry about us wherever we went. I guess times have changed.
MR. WILLIAMS: I would say that was a highlight.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Well, is there anything we had talked about that you would like to talk about?
MR. WILLIAMS: No. I’m anxious to see some other interviews because I’m sure I’ll recognize them.
MR. HUNNICUTT: I mentioned to you how you can inquire into that.
MRS. WILLIAMS: I definitely will.
MR. HUNNICUTT: I think that will bring back a lot of memories. I know that after we do these interviews, the people say, “I wished I had remembered to say such and such.” When did you guys moved to this location you’re in now?
MR. WILLIAMS: About 14 years ago. We went from Miami, Fla., back to Tennessee. It was 1971, I think it was.
MRS. WILLIAMS: We didn’t go back into Oak Ridge.
MR. WILLIAMS: No. We lived in [inaudible] County for about 15 years out of the country on a small farm.
MRS. WILLIAMS: That was nice.
MR. WILLIAMS: Then we moved here. We like it here. It’s very convenient.
MR. HUNNICUTT: Why did you not moved back into Oak Ridge at that time?
MRS. WILLIAMS: Most of our friends at that time belonged to the Country Club, and they played golf. It was different than our lifestyle. I like to be around all kinds of different people. I didn’t want that again.
MR. HUNNICUTT: It’s been my pleasure to interview both of you. We thank you for letting us come into your home.
MRS. WILLIAMS: You’re welcome.
MR. HUNNICUTT: This will be a valuable tool for the city’s future. All these oral history interviews are just great, I think. Some young person maybe down the road may be doing a paper about daily life, pull up your interview, and take part of what you each of said just that. Your contribution as well appreciated. Thank you.
MRS. WILLIAMS: Thank you. I’m glad we could contribute.
[End of Interview]