Dating maze #266 - Digging Deeper

They have fun together, but it's not progressing past superficiality.

For the past few weeks I've been dating a special young woman for the purpose of marriage. She's a very "private" person, and it seems to take her longer to open up about herself than some of the other women I've dated. While I don't want to push, I wonder when is the correct time to bring up more serious conversations, and what is a tactful way to do it.

We don't have a problem relating to each other on a casual level. We've even had meaningful discussions, but most of the time we've talked about work and "Jewish geography" topics. I want to talk about life goals, worldview, having children, spiritual and communal goals.

Our schedules are so busy that we're only able to go out once a week or so, and we exchange e-mails and speak on the phone a few times a week. It doesn't seem that we are running out of things to talk about, but the lack of more serious topics is starting to bother me, and I really need an advice on how to bring it into a conversation. Thank you.

Larry

Dear Larry

You are asking about a problem that many people encounter. A number of daters have no idea how to make a transition from casual talk to something with more substance. That difficulty can keep them from continuing the courtship, because they wonder whether the two of them are capable of talking about more substantial issues, and if they will be able to relate to each other on a deep level. Many times, instead of telling themselves, "Yes, I can go on one more date with this person," they conclude, "It probably won't work out anyway" -- and stop going out.

In your case, the fact that the two of you find it relatively easy to talk to each other about casual topics indicates that it is worthwhile trying to move this courtship forward. We have some suggestions for how to expand the depth and quality of your communication. These suggestions can also be helpful for daters whose initial conversations don't flow that well, but who nevertheless believe the courtship has potential because the other person is "in the ballpark" and seems to be "nice enough." Some people need a little more time to feel comfortable opening up about themselves, while others become more at ease after they are able to discuss a few topics they relate to well and feel more confident about their conversational ability

Forget about thinking of a "normal" timetable.

Whether you find it easier to talk together and want pointers on how to move toward a deeper level of conversation, or want advice on how to get past that initial awkward way of relating to each other, our first suggestion is not to worry about time constraints. Forget about thinking, "By six weeks we should already be talking about X," or "We only have another three dates before we have to make a decision about where this is all heading." Daters who feel they have to meet a timetable, whether imposed by social norms or by pressure from family, can give up on a promising courtship because they erroneously conclude something must be "wrong" when things are moving "too slowly." Of course, a courtship should be moving forward, but it isn't uncommon to get off to a slow start and only gain momentum after a while.

Purposeful Dating

Our next suggestion is to give each date a purpose. For your first few dates, you want to become more at ease with each other, learn about certain life experiences and acquaintances you have in common, and get an idea of each other's personality, sense of humor, and view of certain issues. It sounds like you did this, and that's a great way to start off. Now is the time to gradually learn more about each other's tastes, opinions, ideas and ways of dealing with life.

At the same time, your topics should be somewhat "safe" -- keeping you out of territory that is too deeply personal, painful or emotional. It will still be too early to talk about such topics as traumatic life experiences, strong emotions or thoughts that you struggle with, serious conflicts within your family, or your deepest fears, thoughts and dreams. Subjects such as these are very intimate, and shouldn't be introduced until a man and woman have developed a deep enough level of comfort, friendship and trust.

We suggest that before each date, think of a few different pieces of information you'd like to learn about this woman, and prepare a few questions or anecdotes you can use to introduce the topic. For example, to know what values are most important to her, you could introduce this by talking about someone in your family, or someone you know, whom you really admire, and explain what it was you admired so much about them and why. You can then ask if there is anyone she really admires, and ask her to tell you about them. This is a good way to segue into qualities you admire in other people, what kind of character traits you value, and whether there are any traits within yourself that you are working to improve.

Consider where you see yourself in five years.

As you get to know each other better, another point of conversation to consider is where you see yourself in five years. You can talk about the different paths that are open to you, what you'd need in order to traverse each one, what factors might influence you to change, which route you'd really prefer, and which you're more likely to travel. Your ideas about the family life you hope to have should be a meaningful part of these discussions.

You could also talk about:

• What friendship means to you; describe what it was like to grow up with your best friend, have a friend move away, argue with a friend and then make up, or see the nature of your friendships change as you matured.

• Describe an experience that changed your life, and how it affected you

• What makes you happiest, what are experiences from the past that you treasure, what aspects of your life today bring you joy?

• What are your tastes in music, art, furniture, movies, books? What it is like to be wowed by a painting in a museum, or have a bauble you like to look at on your coffee table.

• How do you handle challenges, and what you've found to be challenging?

• What things make you frustrated or angry, and how you handle yourself when that happens?

• What would you like to do if you had a month off with no worries about finances, time, or geography?

Ask each other questions about the whos, whats, wheres, whens, and whys of each topic. Questions that require a narrative answer (as opposed to "yes-no") help the conversation flow. And remember that it is not necessary to talk about more than one or two "significant" issues on each date. You also want to spend time simply enjoying each other's company, having fun, and experiencing casual conversations. All this will help you develop a shared history, which is a key building block of emotional connection.

We hope that our suggestions will help you courtship proceed, and we wish you success in navigating the dating maze,

Featured at Aish.com:

About the Author

Questions for Rosie & Sherry can be sent to datingmaze@aish.com. Due to the large volume of questions received, they are unable to answer each one.

Rosie Einhorn (a psychotherapist) and Sherry Zimmerman (a psychotherapist and former family lawyer) are the authors of the newly-released book, Dating Smart – Navigating the Path to Marriage, published by Menucha Publishers. They are the founders of Sasson V'Simcha (www.jewishdatingandmarriage.com), a non- profit organization that provides programs and services in North America, Israel, and Europe to help Jewish singles and the people who care about them.

The opinions expressed in the comment section are the personal views of the commenters. Comments are moderated, so please keep it civil.

Visitor Comments: 6

(6)
Ron,
September 25, 2008 11:30 PM

Offer what you want to get

Whenever I want to know something about a lady I met I just tell her my story on that same topic. What I'm looking for in life. How children fit into the picture. I guess she could nod and simply say "I see" but that has yet to happen. People want to be heard and understood. So once I've offered my point of view they have followed suit. Now I think if anyone simply smiled and offered nothing in return (provided this qas brought up after an appropriate number of dates and conversations) then I would walk away from this person. She's trying to decide yes / no and if she says yes it will be a weak one. Not something you want.

(5)
linda llewellyn,
September 23, 2008 4:17 PM

WHAT ABOUT PASSIION

This young lady is obviously not comfortable in the relationship and there seems to be very little passion. It should all come naturally, if it is meant to be and Larry should make time to see the lady he wants to marry. Good advise from Rosie and Sherry

(4)
Yehudit Hannah,
September 23, 2008 3:34 PM

Different timeline in religious communities

To John:
In religious communities (which is the background I assume when he says he is dating for marriage), it is common to go from meet to wedding in three-six months.

(3)
John Doering,
September 23, 2008 11:50 AM

Slow Down

You've been dating a few weeks and are already thinking about marriage? Wow! Slow down! You will scare her off, and rightfully so. It takes more time to know if someone may be marriage material, not a few weeks.

(2)
Elisheva,
September 23, 2008 10:37 AM

to Sheila

This is not a first date, the questioner has clearly stated that it has been a few weeks. No one is advising him to open up about such sensitive topics like meds and exes-- but about ideas (issues such as Rosie and Sherry suggest-- whom you admire and why, etc) which are a little more personal than small talk. I also hate when people go "too fast" with the really big things-- but there needs to be something to catch your interest in order to proceed past 3-4 dates. Otherwise it loses all momentum.

(1)
Sheila,
September 21, 2008 3:20 PM

On The Other Hand

I am in the same situation but I very well could be the person the writer is talking about.
I dislike when people get too personal too quickly. I do not want to know about your exes and yoru medications on a first date.
I take time to warm up to people, unfortunately people move on too quickly.

I've been striving to get more into spirituality. But it seems that every time I make some progress, I find myself slipping right back to where I started. I'm getting discouraged and feel like a failure. Can you help?

The Aish Rabbi Replies:

Spiritual slumps are a natural part of spiritual growth. There is a cycle that people go through when at times they feel closer to God and at times more distant. In the words of the Kabbalists, it is "two steps forward and one step back." So although you feel you are slipping, know that this is a natural process. The main thing is to look at your overall progress (over months or years) and be able to see how far you've come!

This is actually God's ingenious way of motivating us further. The sages compare this to teaching a baby how to walk. When the parent is holding on, the baby shrieks with delight and is under the illusion that he knows how to walk. Yet suddenly, when the parent lets go, the child panics, wobbles and may even fall.

At such times when we feel spiritually "down," that is often because God is letting go, giving us the great gift of independence. In some ways, these are the times when we can actually grow the most. For if we can move ourselves just a little bit forward, we truly acquire a level of sanctity that is ours forever.

Here is a practical tool to help pull you out of the doldrums. The Sefer HaChinuch speaks about a great principle in spiritual growth: "The external awakens the internal." This means that although we may not experience immediate feelings of closeness to God, eventually, by continuing to conduct ourselves in such a manner, this physical behavior will have an impact on our spiritual selves and will help us succeed. (A similar idea is discussed by psychologists who say: "Smile and you will feel happy.")

That is the power of Torah commandments. Even if we may not feel like giving charity or praying at this particular moment, by having a "mitzvah" obligation to do so, we are in a framework to become inspired. At that point we can infuse that act of charity or prayer with all the meaning and lift it can provide. But if we'd wait until being inspired, we might be waiting a very long time.

May the Almighty bless you with the clarity to see your progress, and may you do so with joy.

In 1940, a boatload 1,600 Jewish immigrants fleeing Hitler's ovens was denied entry into the port of Haifa; the British deported them to the island of Mauritius. At the time, the British had acceded to Arab demands and restricted Jewish immigration into Palestine. The urgent plight of European Jewry generated an "illegal" immigration movement, but the British were vigilant in denying entry. Some ships, such as the Struma, sunk and their hundreds of passengers killed.

If you seize too much, you are left with nothing. If you take less, you may retain it (Rosh Hashanah 4b).

Sometimes our appetites are insatiable; more accurately, we act as though they were insatiable. The Midrash states that a person may never be satisfied. "If he has one hundred, he wants two hundred. If he gets two hundred, he wants four hundred" (Koheles Rabbah 1:34). How often have we seen people whose insatiable desire for material wealth resulted in their losing everything, much like the gambler whose constant urge to win results in total loss.

People's bodies are finite, and their actual needs are limited. The endless pursuit for more wealth than they can use is nothing more than an elusive belief that they can live forever (Psalms 49:10).

The one part of us which is indeed infinite is our neshamah (soul), which, being of Divine origin, can crave and achieve infinity and eternity, and such craving is characteristic of spiritual growth.

How strange that we tend to give the body much more than it can possibly handle, and the neshamah so much less than it needs!