foxbrent wrote:...such an enlightening topic (but I think none takes it seriously lol). That is what technology and modernization brought to the entire humanity: greediness. People never got contented; always ask for more without even thinking what the effect of this changing environment was. If only someone will see our world outside and have a comparison on what it looks like before, the big difference was talking.

But its an high time to take it really seriously. Else the tipping point is not too far.

Senior Education Officer, BNHS, India. www.bnhs.org

Bitter Truth!Who says reason for world war III will be Petrol? Reason lies in two words "Me and Mine".

Wow. This has a lot of very good ideas in it. The connection between emotions and speed, and the difference betwen the'corporate mindset' and the normal default human mindset. I think there is a real measurable difference here, and I am not sure how much it has been explored.However I think it is a bit unhelpful to state that man cannot survive if we continue to live in cities. There is a possible alternative but it isn't going to happen soon enough for any of us to predict what it will do to humanity. We could for instance all move out into the countryside if we all worked and conferenced online. There would still need to be industrial installations, but they could be almost wholly mechanised. This would all be possible now, but there is quite a lot of resistence to working from home. 'Corporate man' needs to have his confidence and enthusiasm buoyed up by face to face interaction with a group of members of his own corporation, and that confidence and enthusiasm grows with the numbers and global spread of this interaction.i.e. the highest powered businessmen are those that globe trot the most.An unfortunate part of this need for others to help bolster his confidence means that corporate man has less individual sense of responsibility. His S of R is restricted to his being responsible for improving his figures, and making a good show in the eyes of his peers. Ethics never rear their ugly heads! The only law even against doing things that are actually illegal, is 'don't get caught!'

Your premis in short seems to be that if people slow down they will feel things more intensely and behave better. I sent a reply yesterday which was interrupted. I hadn't finished making the point but I'd thought it got posted. Glad to see it isn't here. Right you are ignoring the problem of habituation in your assessment of emotions, Also your separation of emotions from thoughts is incorrect. People think and feel at the same time. There is no temporal separation. It is true that thoughts associated with work can override thoughts associated with emotions. If something is worrying you, or something unpleasant has happened it is possible to drown out these emotions with work. From this it follows that workaholics feel less emotion than other people in their lives, because they do not leave themselves time to indulge in personal thought and feelings. However this blocking causes stress, and can lead to breakdowns. I think it would be interesting to research whether the constant blocking out of emotions with work can also cause a general deadening of emotion in the person, or an alienation from responsibility for things other than work

animartco wrote: Also your separation of emotions from thoughts is incorrect. People think and feel at the same time. There is no temporal separation.

Thanks for your recent posts on the topic.

Thinking and Feeling can indeed happen simultaneously......but both cannot be increased simultaneously.......When one is high the other is low.......When one is more the other is less.

When thinking is more, emotion is less......When emotion is more, thinking is less.

It is just like "Physical Work" and "Mental Work".......both cannot be increased simultaneously.

This is why humans have made offices for doing mental work where people sit down on chairs and stop/ minimize their physical activity so that all their energy goes into doing mental work........Although there is some movement of head, hands and legs in offices, the physical activity is at minimum level.

Thinking and Feeling can indeed happen simultaneously......but both cannot be increased simultaneously.......When one is high the other is low.......When one is more the other is less.

When thinking is more, emotion is less......When emotion is more, thinking is less.

It is just like "Physical Work" and "Mental Work".......both cannot be increased simultaneously.

This is why humans have made offices for doing mental work where people sit down on chairs and stop/ minimize their physical activity so that all their energy goes into doing mental work........Although there is some movement of head, hands and legs in offices, the physical activity is at minimum level.

Evidence?

Patrick

Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without
any proof. (Ashley Montague)

The question was raised as to whether it is consumerism or human population that is destroying the planet. So do we all live 'the good life' or do we curtail our reproduction? We do both! The situation is so serious now that half measures will not prevent the destruction of Earth.It has been argued that other species in Earth's history have reached higher proportions than the human population. But those species lived in a single environment and ate only one food source which they were unable to augment by artificial means. Therefore when that food ran out- they died, without damaging all other life on Earth. Global warming is caused by the heat that man produces by the use of artificial energy and by the chemical breakdown of all the substances which he is constantly altering. No other animal has ever made fire!

animartco wrote:The situation is so serious now that half measures will not prevent the destruction of Earth.

Industrial Society is a lunatic society that is trying to save environment not by stopping Industrial Activity but by changing the technology.

Bring this technology, Bring that technology..........Bring this technology, Bring that technology.

A man is shooting someone with a gun........Some people are trying to save the victim.......They plead with the man asking him to save the victim by stopping the shooting.

The man says.....Don't worry......I will save him by changing technology......He replaces the old gun with a new one ........And continues to shoot.

..

Environment has been destroyed by Industrial Activity........Trying to save environment without stopping Industrial Activity is like ......

Trying to save a victim of shooting by shooting him even more.

Trying to save a victim of stabbing by stabbing him even more.

Trying to save a victim of poisoning by giving him even more poison.

Height of Insanity, Abnormality and Criminality.......You cannot save environment by destroying more of it.

Industrial Society has been destroying Extra environment for 250 years........It has been destroying environment for "thousands of consumer goods and services" in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

You cannot save a person after killing him.......You cannot save environment after it has been killed by Industrial Activity.

The entire Industrial Society deserves the Nobel Prize for Lunacy for pretending that environment is getting saved when the reality is that Industrial Society has been destroying extra environment after industrialization and has destroyed so much extra environment in 250 years that there is hardly any environment left to save.

..

There is only one cause of environmental destruction.......Industrialization.

Industrialization was the biggest crime on earth.......The biggest act of killing, murder and terrorism.

A Hunter_Gatherer Society of 7 billion would have destroyed very little environment...... because it would have destroyed environment only for food.

An Agrarian Society of 7 billion would have destroyed very little environment [compared to an Industrial Society of 7 billion]...... because it would have destroyed environment only for food, clothing and shelter.

Industrial Society of 7 billion has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems in just 250 years after industrialization because it destroyed environment for "Thousands of consumer goods and services" in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

A Hunter_Gatherer Society would have never reached a population of 7 billion.

An Agrarian Society would have never reached a population of 7 billion.

World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been only a small fraction of 7 billion today.

..

For the last 50 years Intellectuals have been debating what is good for Environment......Capitalist Industrial Society, Communist Industrial Society or Socialist Industrial Society?

This is like debating what is good for people.....Capitalist Poison, Communist Poison or Socialist Poison.

Poison kills people.....it doesn't matter who made it ......Capitalism, Communism or Socialism.

In just 250 years Industrial Society has destroyed 75 - 90% of Biodiversity and Ecosystems......Forests, Wild Animals and Fish Population......Population of Lions, Tigers and Elephants is down to 2 - 5% of what it was 100 years ago......Population of Large Fish in Oceans is down to 10% of what it was 100 years ago.....Industrial Society has poisoned the entire planet with Trillions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste, Nuclear Waste.....It has killed Trillions of Animals in Industrial Slaughter Houses and billions of acres of Fertile Soil with Cement, Concrete and Asphalt.

Animal Species and Hunter_Gatherer Society did not save environment through discussion......They did not even have a language for discussing environmental issues.

Animal species and Hunter_Gatherer Society did not save environment with money ........They had no money.

Animal species, Hunter_Gatherer Society and Agrarian Society did not save environment with modern technology........They had no modern technology......It was absence of modern technology that saved environment in pre-industrial societies........Over-exploitation of ecosystems became possible only because of Industrial Machines.

Animal species, Hunter_Gatherer Society and Agrarian Society did not save environment with the help of Environmental Organizations or Activism........They had no environmental organizations.

Animal Species did not destroy environment for millions of years.......Hunter Gatherer Society destroyed very little environment during a million years of existence......Agrarian Society destroyed very little environment [compared to Industrial Society] over a period of 10,000 years.

There is only one way to save environment.......Destroy less......Minimize the list of things that are destroying environment.

..

Promoters of Growth rate, Economy Rate and GDP are the biggest terrorists on earth.......Millions of times bigger terrorists than Taliban and Al Qaeda.

Our society has placed a bounty of millions of dollars on the heads of Taliban and Al Qaeda

No bounty on the heads of people who promoted Industrialization, Consumerism, Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP that has led to destruction of most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems on earth???

It was not Taliban or Al Qaeda that produced Trillions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste that has contaminated and poisoned the entire planet......It was Industrial Society.

It was not Taliban or Al Qaeda that decimated millions of animal and plant species......It was Industrial Society.

It was not Taliban or Al Qaeda that killed billions of acres of fertile soil with cement, concrete and asphalt......It was Industrial Society.

It was not Taliban or Al Qaeda that decimated fish in the oceans......It was Industrial Fishing.

It was not Taliban or Al Qaeda that killed millions of people in wars.......It was Military Industrial Complex.

Industrialization was the biggest crime on earth.

For millions of years before industrialization the list of things that destroyed environment never exceeded food, clothing and shelter.......Animals destroyed environment for food......Hunter_Gatherer Society destroyed environment for food......Agrarian Society destroyed environment for food, clothing and shelter.

Development is Destruction........Development is Destruction.

"Growth Rate" - "Economy Rate" - "GDP"These are figures of "Ecocide".These are figures of "Crimes against Nature".These are figures of "Destruction of Ecosystems".These are figures of "Insanity, Abnormality and Criminality".

Environment has been destroyed by Cities.......Environment has been destroyed by Urban Dwellers.........City People are doing extra work which has led to exponential "extra destruction of environment".......... Urban Dwellers are the destroyers of Forests, Villages, Tribal Land, Rivers, Oceans and Atmosphere.

For millions of years "searching for food" / “producing food” were the primary activities of animal species, hunter_gatherer society and agrarian society.........and that is why they sustained for millions of years because they destroyed very little environment compared to Industrial Society.......For millions of years the list of things that destroyed environment never exceeded food, clothing and shelter.

In Industrial Society 50% of world population is growing food for 100% of population and the remaining 50% living in cities is primarily engaged in production and marketing of "thousands of consumer goods and services".

It is impossible to save environment as long as Urban Population exists in this world.

It is impossible to save environment as long as Urban Population is engaged in production and marketing of consumer goods and services.

It is impossible to save environment as long as Urban Population is promoting Industrial Activity.

Industrial Activity is directly proportional to percentage of Urban Population.

Consumerism is directly proportional to percentage of Urban Population.

Destruction of environment is directly proportional to percentage of Urban Population.

Most of the people who do not produce food are engaged in production and marketing of consumer goods and services.

Most of the urban population is engaged in production and marketing of consumer goods and services.

In America 90 - 95% of population is urban......In Europe 80 – 90% of population is urban......this is why consumerism is so rampant in US and West.

World wide the percentage of urban population is about 50%.......If the entire world is made communist or socialist it is not going to stop/ reduce consumerism as long as the percentage of urban population remains the same.

As long as Urban Population exists all Industrial Activities will continue to exist and expand........ Energy Generation Industry, Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Construction Industry, Oil Drilling Industry, Oil Refining Industry, Transportation Industry, Millions of kilometers of Rail and Road Network, Millions of kilometers of Air Routes and Shipping Lanes.....all these Industrial Activities will continue to exist and expand.

This planet cannot sustain a society that does not produce its own food.

This planet cannot sustain Urban population.

Environment has been destroyed primarily by Urban Population......Environment has been destroyed primarily by population that does not produce food.

This planet can only sustain a society in which [almost] the entire population is engaged in producing food.

One profession means destruction of environment for one thing.......Thousands of professions means destruction of environment for thousands of things.

Animals did not destroy Environment for millions of years.......because their activity was limited to searching for food.

Hunter Gatherer Society did not destroy Environment for a million years.......because their activity was limited to searching for food.

Agrarian Society caused very limited destruction of environment over 10,000 years [compared to Industrial Society].......because their activity was limited to food, clothing and shelter.

Industrial Society has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems in just 250 years......because it has destroyed environment for "thousands of consumer goods and services in addition to food, clothing and shelter".

The list of unnecessary and destructive work in Industrial Society includes......Manufacturing and Marketing of thousands of "Consumer Goods" and Services, Tourism Industry, Entertainment Industry, Sports Industry, Military Industrial Complex, All kinds of unnecessary Research .....and lots of other work.

Out of the population that does not produce Food, the maximum number of people - a few billion people are engaged in Production and Marketing of "Consumer Goods" and Services. Industrial Activity for production of "consumer goods" and services is the biggest destroyer of environment.

Millions of people are working in Sports Industry......Environment is destroyed to manufacture millions of tonnes of Sports Equipment......Millions of Trees have been cut down and billions of acres of fertile soil has been killed with Cement & Concrete to build millions of Stadiums.

Millions of people are working in Tourism Industry......Tourism is all about Travelling which promotes Transportation Industry that destroys Environment......Millions of kilometers of Road and Rail network cutting through Forests destroying Trees and Wildlife.....Millions of kilometers of Shipping Lanes torturing and killing Fish.....Millions of kilometers of Air Routes killing the Air with millions of tonnes of exhaust gases.

Millions of people are working in Entertainment Industry........Environment has been destroyed to construct millions of Buildings that are used for entertainment and to produce millions of tonnes of Electronic Equipment that provides entertainment.

Millions of people are working for "Military Industrial Complex" producing and selling billions of tonnes of weapons all over the world...... Environment is destroyed when weapons are produced and when they are used.

Millions of City People are engaged in other unnecessary work that destroys even more environment.

Food, clothing and shelter......these are the maximum number of things this planet can provide to humans.

A pure non-industrial society is not possible now because Industrialization has increased world population to 7 billion.......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been only a small fraction of 7 billion today.

If we want to save the remaining environment we must minimize the things that are destroying environment.

At present we are destroying environment for Food, Clothing, Shelter plus Thousands of Industrial consumer goods and services.

We must eliminate the things that were added last to the list......which means Thousands of consumer goods and services, most of which have existed for only about 100 years out of Hundreds of Thousands of years of Total Human Existence on earth .........these have to be eliminated or minimized.

We are approaching Environmental Apocalypse.......The only way to save the remaining environment is by stopping Industrial Activity for production of consumer goods and services immediately........Industrial Activity must be limited to food, clothing and shelter.......and even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum.

You're using argumental fallacy and long boring post to mislead people.

By stopping industry, you will kill all people (without any shooting).By stopping shooter, we will have more people like you around.

We need the industry to keep our current living and by stopping it, you would cause people decay. The industry is able to increase efficiency and lower pollution, even find new resources, so that we won't have to destroy the Earth. But if you stop it and stop the research, nothing of that will be possible and the past damage will not be possible to restore.