Kukla's Korner Hockey

You can watch more videos associated with the ceremony at the video section of NHL.com.

added 1:47pm, from Bob McKenzie of TSN,

So, Rich Pilon, how does it feel to be immortalized in the bronze Mario Lemieux statue unveiled today in Pittsburgh, with Le Magnifique splitting the New York Islander defence pairing of Pilon and Jeff Norton for all eternity?

“To tell you the truth, it’s very cool,” Pilon told TSN, just minutes after the statue was unveiled in Pittsburgh. “I have no problem with it. If you’re going to get beat on a play and it’s there for everyone to see forever, it might as well be Mario. He did that to a lot of defencemen.”

wow. talk about disrespectful… no surpise that it comes from 3 redwing fans. Kind of ironic that it is red wing fans who are always complaining about other people taking over their wing specific threads. And it is red wing fans who ‘can’t take the name calling anymore, please paul put a stop to it’ stuff. Yet when one of the greats of all time gets a statue outside of his home arena, the wing fans come out with their wonderful compliments.

Is a Pens Blog or a general KK article, Gretzky to Lemieux? I didn’t take anyone’s thread over. I have tremendous respect for the offensive force Mario was. It was a joke dude.

Posted by
Bezukov
on 03/07/12 at 08:31 PM ET

And it is red wing fans who ‘can’t take the name calling anymore, please paul put a stop to it’ stuff. Yet when one of the greats of all time gets a statue outside of his home arena, the wing fans come out with their wonderful compliments.

Even you have to admit that there’s a pretty large difference between saying things about a hockey player and calling the other commenters names.

Mario Lemieux was a kick-ass hockey player. I don’t like him as much as an owner.

I imagine it has more to do with the Islander’s brawl, OMG BUT HE HAS MATT COOKE ON HIS TEAM, which if that’s the only thing a person can bring up, doesn’t make him a bad owner at all. The entire point of Lemieux’s comments on that were taken over by that, but hey, whatever floats your boat I guess.

So JJ, seriously, what in your opinion makes him a bad owner? I’m obviously biased, but to say he is a bad owner, unless you think the majority of the league has bad owners, would put him most likely in the bottom half/third of owners. I just don’t see anything that bad that puts him there. Would I say he’s the best? I don’t know, it’s such a hard topic when grading owners, especially when you blend in the emotional lines that Lemieux has with the Pens/Pens fans.

I find it very unsporting that the statue depicts two guys getting beat in addition to a great play by SuperMario. Not nice to immortalize a moment of failure. But, I think it is only appropriate that such a statue is in Pittsburgh. Our civic pride and arrogance are deserved after all our Cups and glorious moments. I agree that if there was a statue of Clinton getting his knob tweeked by Lewinsky would not be the most respectful thing, but I wager Monica would argue there is no such thing as bad press. I read Bob MacKenzie’s interview with Pilon and it goes to stand. But what other option does that guy have?

Posted by
Adam Caldwell
from Pittsburgh, PA on 03/07/12 at 10:32 PM ET

If you were to transplant the situation to a Danish setting, the statue would have been replaced by a sculpture. Probably intended as an artistic representation of a character trait associated with Lemieux the Man. A trait you wouldn’t be able to decipher unless you knew it beforehand. I think I prefer that obliqueness over statues.

And it is red wing fans who ‘can’t take the name calling anymore, please paul put a stop to it’ stuff.

I assume you’re talking about me, since I was the one that publicly railed against someone who has consistently used abusive and inappropriate language over the last few years (despite being asked to refrain). No, I’m not a Red Wings fan, and I’m not sure what that has to do with anything. My problems with name calling, sexism, and other such nonsense have nothing to do with team affiliation and everything to do with maintaining some level of decency around this fine establishment. If someone is acting a fool in public, I have no problem telling them as such in public. Like I said, the person in question has been posting offensive/inappropriate material on this site for years, and I’d simply had enough. I don’t particularly want to harp on it any longer; I consider the matter closed, and I am sorry to have derailed that particular thread (and hope that the same fate will not befall this thread). I promise to refrain from calling people out for being inappropriate if they promise to stop being inappropriate.

Apologies for posting in this thread as I really did not have anything to add, but I did want to correct your erroneous belief that my previous complaints had anything to do with the Detroit Red Wings.

For what it’s worth, I think it’s a neat statue, and I’m glad that Mario Lemieux and the city of Pittsburgh are happy with it. It is a great day for hockey, eh?

Moq: That is an interesting perspective; thank you for sharing. I think that’s a neat idea, a sculpture to bring to mind an individual’s qualities, as opposed to a concrete representation. I guess the only problem with that approach is that people who didn’t know the individual would not understand the significance. Over time, there would be nobody left who truly understood the artwork.

My favorite part of these things is how Wings fans forget how many high-to-fairly-high draft picks Detroit had right before they went on this long run of 20 straight seasons of making the playoffs run they’re on now.

So…I guess that makes the Wings a franchise that relied on high draft picks to become a good team and then on good drafting to stay there afterwards?

That’s not even bringing into account the fact that the Wings were a large-market team with an over-the-top wealthy owner that could spend however much they wanted with no ramifications. Which was unlike the Pens teams who were built through a bunch of high draft picks, free agency and trades…and then went bankrupt because the owners couldn’t afford the salaries they were paying players to keep them in Pittsburgh, because they had to match the salaries that bigger markets could pay them (*gasp* it wasn’t that fans abandoned the Penguins! sorry to burst the proverbial bubble)

So, in conclusion, not much of a difference between the two teams - the Pens just happened later. And, the Pens have 3 Cups since 1967, the Red Wings 4. 4 is only 1 better than 3. Suck it.

Also, Mario Lemieux > any other hockey player ever. It’s not even close.

That’s not even bringing into account the fact that the Wings were a large-market team with an over-the-top wealthy owner that could spend however much they wanted with no ramifications.

We can’t all be so lucky to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and have our owner threaten to move us. Maybe if the jokes in your city hadn’t jumped off the bandwagon and stopped showing up, they could have afforded their talent. Or MAYBE if ownership had the balls and the coaching to stand up to a primadonna locker room cancer who got to make personnel decisions, things like this wouldn’t have happened.

*gasp* it wasn’t that fans abandoned the Penguins!

So I guess being last in the league in NHL attendance back in 2003-04 was because there weren’t enough players to fill the stands? No. They were driven away! Please. Go talk to a Chicago die-hard about being driven away by your team’s ownership.

What a complete joke. Let’s go back to 1983 to prove that the 1997 cup run was done with a core of first-rounders handed to us. Let’s look at ALL the first-round picks that Detroit used to win the first of the only four cups you whiners wish existed (since the NHL didn’t count before we were blessed with the presence of your laugher of a franchise)

So I guess being last in the league in NHL attendance back in 2003-04 was because there weren’t enough players to fill the stands?

Oh, so you mean the season where they won 23 games and their leading scorer was defenseman Dick Tarnstrom? A season where Mario Lemieux played 10 games and the Pens traded away ANOTHER one of their stars in Marty Straka?

I also wonder what would happen to the attendance at the Joe if the Wings decided to trade Datsyuk to Colorado because they couldn’t afford to pay him anymore. Then traded Zetterberg for the same reason. Oh, and in addition to all of that, if Lidstrom had to sit out all but 10 games because of health problems…and the Wings won 23 games. I betcha it’d get real ugly real quick in Detroit, then. Just a hunch.

I’d love to see some attendance numbers from the Dead Wing era, too. I’m sure those were stellar. And where can I find television numbers? I know I saw it once…but the TV numbers didn’t drop off AT ALL during the terrible stretch they had in the early 2000s. I can’t remember fully…but they might’ve actually gone up - which would be a pretty good indication that fans didn’t abandon the Penguins.

Don’t forget, the Igloo’s capacity was small, so the Pens were always in the bottom 1/2 of attendance, no matter if they sold 103% of their tickets or 70% of their tickets. I suppose I’m a bandwagoner and Lemieux is a bad owner because of that, too, right?

And I suppose it’s the Pens’ fanbase’s fault that the Wings struck out on all their high draft picks in the 80s, right? Also our fault that the team was so terrible that a goalie couldn’t even turn it around? Am I on the right track, here?

I mean, with Tarnstrum, Melichar and a rookie Brooks Orpik in front of him, that bum (and teenage) Marc-Andre Fleury should’ve won 40 games!

That 2004 first round pick helped right away, also…from Russian where he was being held against his will until 2006.

And of course, as well all know - you especially, JJ - a whiny 18-year-old + Mark Recchi + Jon LeClair + Konstantin Koltsov + 22 games of what was once Mario Lemieux = Cup contender! Right?

Give. Me. A. Break.

Laughter of a franchise? Please. I’ll laugh at the 3 Cups my favorite team has since 1990 all the way to the bank.

You might want to find a different page to the, “Why Penguins Fans aren’t as Good as Wings Fans” book to quote from. The whole, “OMG YOUR TEAM ALMOST MOVED TO KANSAS CITY LOL” garbage is tired and old. And mostly untrue.

One last thing:

Let’s go back to 1983 to prove that the 1997 cup run was done with a core of first-rounders handed to us.

I never EVER did that. You’re completely off base, here. I went to 1983 because the years after lead up to the incredible 20 straight years of playoff appearances. I never ever said anything about the 1997 Cup win - you jumped to a conclusion there instead of reading what I typed. Which was:

My favorite part of these things is how Wings fans forget how many high-to-fairly-high draft picks Detroit had right before they went on this long run of 20 straight seasons of making the playoffs run they’re on now.

Don’t let get in your way of making wild accusations, though. Facts are just facts.

And I suppose it’s the Pens’ fanbase’s fault that the Wings struck out on all their high draft picks in the 80s, right?

Hahahaha. Backwards mentality. What does this have to do with the Penguins having five top-five picks in five consecutive years? You’re not even grasping at straws here.

And of course, as well all know - you especially, JJ - a whiny 18-year-old + Mark Recchi + Jon LeClair + Konstantin Koltsov + 22 games of what was once Mario Lemieux = Cup contender! Right?

No, you’re right. that’s exactly the same as the #4 overall pick from 1983 having a franchise built around him to win a cup in 1997.

Laughter of a franchise? Please. I’ll laugh at the 3 Cups my favorite team has since 1990 all the way to the bank.

And on your way to the bank, you’ll run across the rest of the league laughing at alll of those top-five picks coming your way between numbers 2 and 3.

You might want to find a different page to the, “Why Penguins Fans aren’t as Good as Wings Fans” book to quote from. The whole, “OMG YOUR TEAM ALMOST MOVED TO KANSAS CITY LOL” garbage is tired and old. And mostly untrue.

It’s either completely untrue or it’s true. In this case, it’s true. I’m not even making the argument that Wings fans are better than Penguins fans. I’m saying the Wings are a better organization than the Penguins. You can trust in as much “oh that was never going to happen, it was all a bluff” rhetoric as you want to, but the fact of the matter is that the Penguins DID almost move to Kansas City and that’s an embarrassment. But I guess using the same true thing over and over and over and reminding Penguins fans that it is TRUE does make it old. The page is still valid. I’m not going to retire it because you’re tired of reading it. The Bill of Rights is still valid too.

It’s the same argument about the supposed need to retire the concept of Mario Lemieux threatening to take his ball & go home after the Islanders fiasco while he was paying the salary of the single biggest reason for the introduction of Rule 48. It’s like if an argument is too valid for you, then I’m not allowed to use it because it’s unfair. An honest and hearty congrats to whomever got through to Matt Cooke (and I’m sure that Lemieux himself is part of that group). Forgive me if I don’t fall all over myself praising the guy for seeing his own kid get bitten by a vicious dog before putting his own on a leash.

It’s as embarrassing as saying your team outright sucked as part of an argument about how much your team has sucked, which is exactly what saying “Oh, so you mean the season where they won 23 games and their leading scorer was defenseman Dick Tarnstrom?” is doing.

Don’t let get in your way of making wild accusations, though

You mean like taking “The Penguins have three cups in their history…. and five top-five draft picks in the last decade.”

and turning it into “My favorite part of these things is how Wings fans forget how many high-to-fairly-high draft picks Detroit had right before they went on this long run of 20 straight seasons of making the playoffs run they’re on now.”

Careful there, buddy. That door swings both ways and if you don’t watch yourself, you’ll get a nose full of it.

I also wonder what would happen to the attendance at the Joe if the Wings decided to trade Datsyuk to Colorado because they couldn’t afford to pay him anymore. Then traded Zetterberg for the same reason.

Fortunately, thanks to organizational mismanagement so piss-poor that the owners basically had to gift their own franchise to the star player they couldn’t afford, I don’t have to imagine that in a cost-certainty world.

No, you’re right. that’s exactly the same as the #4 overall pick from 1983 having a franchise built around him to win a cup in 1997.

What don’t you get about “I never said that?”

Are you turning into TPSH all of a sudden? Christ, JJ.

That’s what I mean by a wild accusation. The fact that you’re accusing me, wildly, of typing something that I neither said or meant.

The Wings had a lot of high draft picks before they WENT ON A RUN OF 20-STRAIGHT YEARS WHERE THEY MADE THE PLAYOFFS. Meaning, they had high draft picks, then their team became good. That is a fact. Look it up.

Some of the success is because of the high picks (most importantly, Yzerman), some because of ownership that could spend copious amounts of money on free agents in a world before the salary cap. 1. Because they had stable ownership. 2. Because they’re a large market team - i.e. one that could compete with whatever prices NY and Canadian teams decided to throw at guys (and also one that has and had at least triple the population of Pittsburgh - more people = more money…you know that).

You’re very, very correct in saying it’s different than having 4 top 5 draft picks in a span of 4 years. But you ignore that Fleury was drafted and either played in front of a bunch of fringe NHL’ers at best or stashed in in the AHL because the Pens’ ownership was in such disarray they couldn’t pay him (not because of Mario or fans jumping off the bandwagon, mind you, but because of the previous decade of spending they couldn’t afford to try and keep with with larger-market teams). You also ignore that Evgeni Malkin didn’t arrive until two years after he was drafted. Having a high draft pick that isn’t around doesn’t help you out much, does it?

It’s not like the Penguins finished 2nd in the East but the NHL gave them the 1st and 3rd overall picks anyway.

And you can play the Kansas City card while chastising me about the “he was bluffing” part (which I never said in any of my posts, by the way - thanks for jumping to that conclusion). But if I chose to believe that a Canadian guy didn’t want to move the only franchise he played from from the city he chose to stick around in after his playing days were over, how could you blame me? That you could think I’m somehow less of a person or fan for romanticizing the scenario that all Mario ever wanted for the franchise and the city was the best…and by threatening to to move that his intention was to scare the state into helping Pittsburgh get a new arena. You wouldn’t think the same thing if the roles were reversed…if you were in the black and Vegas-gold shoes of a Pens’ fan?

I don’t know what happened, what the intentions were because, let’s face it, this is a business. I’m realistic in knowing that either of those scenarios could be true. Could’ve been a little of both. I also know that given what Mario has always done for the community in the area and his outward affection towards the city of Pittsburgh, moving the team just doesn’t seem like something he’d do.

I also never said the Pens’ organization was better than the Wings organization. That would be crazy of me. The Wings’ organization is something franchises like the Penguins strive for - or should be striving for. The ownership is rock solid in Ilitch, now the Pens’ have Burkle and Lemieux. Ken Holland is one of, if not the, best GM in the league; Ray Shero isn’t too far behind him. Both franchises have superstar talents and good farm teams that can send players up at anytime to fill in for injuries. The Wings thrive in the draft; the Pens are getting there. I want the Penguins to be like the Wings, organizationally. It’s just not my fault they were in disarray a decade ago. Just like it wasn’t Lemieux’s fault…or any Pens fans’ fault.

And the Cooke thing…he was a dirty, dirty player. No argument from me on that one. But…when did he ever sucker punch someone from behind? When did he punch a player that he just gave a headshot while said player was facedown on the ice writhing in pain? You can rag on Cooke all you want, but he never did those things. If the Columbus Blue Jackets attacked the Wings in that way…are you telling me Mike Ilitch wouldn’t be allowed to say anything because he employs Todd Bertuzzi - a guy who paralyzed someone from punching him in the head from behind?

Half the owners in the league wouldn’t be able to say a word about anything.

And where were those other owners? They ones that didn’t employ Matt Cooke? That Islanders game was a disgrace to hockey…yet nobody but Mario Lemieux said anything and he’s the one that gets crucified for it? I don’t get it. Especially looking at it now, seeing how Matt Cooke changed his game. Can you blame them for employing one of the better penalty killers in the NHL? I mean…they’re 2nd in the league on the PK this season…they were 1st last season. In good part to Cooke’s contributions. It’s not like he did nothing play dirty, he’s a quality hockey player - and that’s not to discount the shitty things he’s done, either. Just a truthful statement.

He wanted change in the league, and he started by changing one of his own players. Doesn’t seem like such a bad thing to me.

But if I chose to believe that a Canadian guy didn’t want to move the only franchise he played from from the city he chose to stick around in after his playing days were over, how could you blame me?

No, but like you said, it’s a business. I don’t think Mario Lemieux wanted to move the Penguins either , but it’s disingenuous to say that it didn’t almost happen. There were offers on the table to put that move in place which we had every reason to believe would have been signed if the city had balked on his plan to get a new arena. When you get that close to the doomsday scenario, I think “almost” is the perfect word. This wasn’t Charles Wang’s half-assed and easily see-through attempt to pull the same stunt. The only way you can say that you didn’t almost get shot in a Mexican standoff is to never get involved in one.

when did he ever sucker punch someone from behind? When did he punch a player that he just gave a headshot while said player was facedown on the ice writhing in pain?

I’m sorry, when did a Red Wings player do this?

It takes a pretty bad look at context to use these as comparable situations. Todd Bertuzzi was a Vancouver Canuck in February of 2004 when he did that. He became a Red Wings player more than three years after that incident. In those three years (which, to be fair to context… at least more fair than you’re being, was only 89 NHL games), he recorded a grand total of 2 major penalties.

Snap back to the Islanders/Penguins fiasco (Feburary 2011)... Matt Cooke is still a menace to the league at this point. Remember, this is a month BEFORE he gets himself suspended for 10 games + the first round of the playoffs for YET ANOTHER cheap shot.

I’m telling you that if a Columbus Blue Jackets player attacked a Red Wings player (in a game where the Red Wings spent the entire first period and much of the second trying to injure Rick Nash), Mike Ilitch wouldn’t be allowed to say anything because of the conduct of his team in that particular game. If the Red Wings had been innocent of dirty tactics in this hypothetical game, Ilitch would ABSOLUTELY be within his rights to complain to the league.

The difference is that Todd Bertuzzi was rehabilitated before the incident where Matt Cooke’s rehabilitation happened after Mario’s little meltdown where he got (rightfully) outed as a hypocrite.

You really want all the owners in the league complaining to the press about an Islanders/Penguins game? I could only imagine if Ted Leonsis had taken his sweaty little fingers to keyboard and penned a missive about the dastardly things pulled by both teams in that game. Can you hypothetically say that Leonsis’, Ilitch’s, or anybody else’s ownership opinion would have been welcome to the media? I’m sure they all did have opinions and they kept them behind closed doors. Half the owners in the league didn’t say a word about anything because it’s not good for half the owners in the league to have put their noses into this situation and the league’s nose to the grindstone.

He wanted change in the league, and he started by changing one of his own players. Doesn’t seem like such a bad thing to me.

Like I said, I really am glad that Cooke has been able to keep his nose clean this season. I really do believe that he’s gotten the message and he’s a changed man (even sooner than I believed the same about Bertuzzi, honestly). I think that’s a good thing, but I’m not exactly heaping praise on Lemieux for leashing his own vicious dog only after seeing his own child get bitten by one.

Snap back to the Islanders/Penguins fiasco (Feburary 2011)... Matt Cooke is still a menace to the league at this point. Remember, this is a month BEFORE he gets himself suspended for 10 games + the first round of the playoffs for YET ANOTHER cheap shot.

Let’s also not forget that Matt Cooke wasn’t a part of the February 11th game because he was busy at the time serving four games for a different cheap shot he had laid two games prior.

I Think Mike Illitch looks like Death warmed over & has a Stupendously Retarded Looking Rug !

Sans the word “retarded”, I’d say that is a spot on representation of the man.

Posted by
WingsFanInBeanLand
from where free agents no longer dare. on 03/08/12 at 04:00 PM ET

“Standing stationary is a tough, physical process, and it always should be. But what happened in September of 2006 wasn’t a sports statue dedication. It was a travesty. It was painful to watch a statue dedication turn into a sideshow like that.

“The sports statue sculptors had a chance to send a clear and strong message that those kinds of actions are unacceptable and embarrassing to real sport statues. It failed.

“We, as sports statues, must do a better job of protecting the integrity of being sports statues and the sanctity of portraying real sports figures. We must make it clear that those kinds of actions will not be tolerated and will be met with meaningful disciplinary action.

“If the events relating to September 2006 reflect the state of sports statue sculptors, I need to re-think whether I want to be a part of it.”

- Mario Lemieux’s statue on the dedication of the Rocky Balboa statue at the Philadelphia Museum of Art

Posted by
WingsFanInBeanLand
from where free agents no longer dare. on 03/08/12 at 04:22 PM ET

Posted by WingsFanInBeanLand from Lidstrom’s head telling him 1 more year on 03/08/12 at 01:22 PM ET

The only reason people bring up the draft picks in regards to the Pens is because they are winning. So hopefully it goes on for the next 15years. And I expect a lot of people to be mad at the Oilers for having back to back To back #1’s and at worse a top 3 pick this year.

Just to put into perspective how legendary lemieux was, just take a look at his stats line for his career. Him and your boy #19 have similar totals however it took the great Stevie Y about 500 more games to get there.