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Re: The real source of our problems....

Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca

It's not a ridiculous apples-oranges comparison to compare government expenditures in relation to government debt. Rainman05 made the statement that the bailouts were more than the wars, which is factually untrue, regardless of how you cut it.

true especially considering that much of TARP was paid back.

When you view the federal budget simply as net income and expenditures, all expenditures greater than income must become debt. Every single expenditure, from war, to bailouts, to medicare, to everything else, counts equally under expenditures.

then for purposes of comparison between programs, either all spending must be counted as attached to debt, or all spending must be counted free of debt. You cannot attach interest to the score of spending you don't like, and not attach it to spending you prefer to score low.

Lastly, are you really trying to assert that the war hasn't costed 3.7 billion dollars? Do I really require more sources?

I am asserting that the war has not cost $3.7 Trillion. I add in that the point that claims that it has cost that much are counting future liabilities against current costs which, as I have demonstrated, would only result in putting war spending back in its' place as far below entitlements.

This is why the best form of comparison is spending as a % of GDP. It gives you a real time snapshot of comparative spending.

Re: The real source of our problems....

Originally Posted by cpwill

Your post here is a ridiculous apples-to-oranges comparison, as you A) assume that 100% of spent money represents borrowed money and B) add in interest for that borrowed money to the cost and C) add in all future assessed liabilities. And that's before I get into the ridiculous nature of your source, which started with their conclusion and worked backwards.

However, by the standards you have proposed, the wars cost $3.7 Trillion. Social Security costs more than $8.6 Trillion. And Medicare costs more than $38.6 Trillion (I have not included the interest for the debt for either of those, which needless to say would radically increase their score).

The military is expensive. But it's not the thing driving our debt.

Marine what you havent included in your numbers....is Military Pay and benefits and healthcare costs...add that and the cost goes up significantly.
Comparing Social Security and Medicare to the military isnt a fair....Social Security and Medicare cover vastly more people and it is taxed from them for their entire lifetimes.
You know I love the military and I stand by them and what they do and what they need 500% this is not about them

Re: The real source of our problems....

The fact that you feel you need to explain that the military itself doesn't create war shows that you apparently do not understand the definition of the term "Military–industrial complex"

This term includes the politicians, corporations, lobbyists, and other such relationships that decide when, where, how and with what war is waged.

"Military–industrial complex, or military–industrial–congressional complex[1], is a concept commonly used to refer to policy and monetary relationships between legislators, national armed forces, and the defense industrial base that supports them. These relationships include political contributions, political approval for defense spending, lobbying to support bureaucracies, and oversight of the industry"

I do understand that....but standing way out in front of that pack are the politicians...thats my perspective.

Re: The real source of our problems....

Marine what you havent included in your numbers....is Military Pay and benefits and healthcare costs...add that and the cost goes up significantly.

Actually that is included.

Comparing Social Security and Medicare to the military isnt a fair....Social Security and Medicare cover vastly more people and it is taxed from them for their entire lifetimes.

and people are taxed to pay for the military. those programs continue to be the main drivers of our debt - especially Medicare. That is why that program needs reform - if we do not find a way to reign in costs while still extending the maximum possible protection to our lower-income seniors, then it will collapse, and they will be left in the cold .

You know I love the military and I stand by them and what they do and what they need 500% this is not about them

well, take that that up with alpaca, as he seems to think that cutting dod spending will produce some kind of nirvana.

Re: The real source of our problems....

Originally Posted by cpwill

and people are taxed to pay for the military. those programs continue to be the main drivers of our debt - especially Medicare. That is why that program needs reform - if we do not find a way to reign in costs while still extending the maximum possible protection to our lower-income seniors, then it will collapse, and they will be left in the cold .

There is a reform up and running isn't there? Or at least scheduled to be up and running.
And that is Obamacare. A brand new tax on the population.

Re: The real source of our problems....

Originally Posted by cpwill

Actually that is included.

and people are taxed to pay for the military. those programs continue to be the main drivers of our debt - especially Medicare. That is why that program needs reform - if we do not find a way to reign in costs while still extending the maximum possible protection to our lower-income seniors, then it will collapse, and they will be left in the cold .

well, take that that up with alpaca, as he seems to think that cutting dod spending will produce some kind of nirvana.

You could have had medicare reform Cp...but the far right blew it. How in the world they believed that somehow they could get away with giving tax cuts to the rich in the same plan that cuts medicare defies reason. Ryan had a golden opportunity to become a Super Star in American Politics and he threw it away by adding a huge tax cut for only the top 2% of our richest and corporations.

Re: The real source of our problems....

So that still leaves 9.5tril unaccounted for... and that 9.5 comes from the bailouts to the banks. The entitlement programs. Everything I mentioned before.

I'm anti-TARP, but as CPWill pointed out, most of that money was, or will be paid back. Even if it wasn't, the number is still substantially lower than the rest.

Originally Posted by cpwill

well, take that that up with alpaca, as he seems to think that cutting dod spending will produce some kind of nirvana.

Yep, you nailed it. I stated that cutting DOD spending would usher in a new era of prosperity and freedom. Let's give three cheers for america! Hip hip!

What I actually stated was that he was wrong in his statement about the costs to the taxpayers of the war.

I can personally think of about a million better ways to spend $3.7 billion dollars than by pissing it away on s***holes like afghanistan and iraq, on people who won't lift a finger to help themselves. If taxes must be collected, I'd rather have them spent on our OWN PEOPLE than the slums of other nations.

Originally Posted by LowDown

I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

Re: The real source of our problems....

Originally Posted by lpast

You could have had medicare reform Cp...but the far right blew it. How in the world they believed that somehow they could get away with giving tax cuts to the rich in the same plan that cuts medicare defies reason. Ryan had a golden opportunity to become a Super Star in American Politics and he threw it away by adding a huge tax cut for only the top 2% of our richest and corporations.

you think that 100% of the American populace represents the top 2%? Ryan's plan included across the board nominal tax rate reductions; and tax reform is critical if we want to spur the kind of growth that will allow us to fund Medicare going forward.

Re: The real source of our problems....

I'm anti-TARP, but as CPWill pointed out, most of that money was, or will be paid back. Even if it wasn't, the number is still substantially lower than the rest.

Yep, you nailed it. I stated that cutting DOD spending would usher in a new era of prosperity and freedom. Let's give three cheers for america! Hip hip!

What I actually stated was that he was wrong in his statement about the costs to the taxpayers of the war.

I can personally think of about a million better ways to spend $3.7 billion dollars than by pissing it away on s***holes like afghanistan and iraq, on people who won't lift a finger to help themselves. If taxes must be collected, I'd rather have them spent on our OWN PEOPLE than the slums of other nations.

I agree with this but the issue is that military spending is not the real source of the problem. It is one of the sources for the problem, but the real source is something else... big banks and wall street bailouts, failed medicare programs and a failed social security program for the masses.

Re: The real source of our problems....

Originally Posted by cpwill

you think that 100% of the American populace represents the top 2%? Ryan's plan included across the board nominal tax rate reductions; and tax reform is critical if we want to spur the kind of growth that will allow us to fund Medicare going forward.

Nonesense and you know it....his tax cut was targeted directly at the rich and no one else was getting squat...lets remember something Cp...ryan brought out 4 plans all slightly different...his first was purely tax cuts for the rich and thats what turned many people against him and his plan...after he came out with the second FAILED attempt with tax cuts for the rich he was basically done....now the the 3rd and 4th variations are being ignored
You cant tell people that we cant AFFORD your program that you paid for....but we can certainly afford a 25% tax cut for those that dont need it at all....Reform is not take from here and give to the rich....