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Re: Bradley Manning Verdict

Originally Posted by Haloti92

Not shooting the messenger, imo.

I also think it is na´ve to think foreign policy does not involve 95% of the things on that list for every/any country. All countries spy. All countries threaten, cajole, attempt to assert their own self-interest. No country publishes every cable/communication/message or effort that it makes in terms of asserting its own self-interest, especially if controversial.

It is not reasonable to expect a country to refrain from spying, colluding, threatening or keeping secrets.

The only things that are truly objectionable are illegal acts that are covered up or not punished, and I do not see many, if any, of those.

Re: Bradley Manning Verdict

Originally Posted by Haloti92

Not shooting the messenger, imo.

I also think it is na´ve to think foreign policy does not involve 95% of the things on that list for every/any country. All countries spy. All countries threaten, cajole, attempt to assert their own self-interest. No country publishes every cable/communication/message or effort that it makes in terms of asserting its own self-interest, especially if controversial.

It is not reasonable to expect a country to refrain from spying, colluding, threatening or keeping secrets.

The only things that are truly objectionable are illegal acts that are covered up or not punished, and I do not see many, if any, of those.

Manning deserves what he got, imo.

Agreed.

And I'd add something else. Manning was in the military, thus forfeited his right to ever be the "messenger" in the first place.

This wasn't some pencil pusher at Apple upset because they stole some trade secrets from IBM and is now a whistleblower.

This is a guy who disobeyed direct orders and leaked secrets that compromised the safety of other military personnel because HE was opposed to something.

If he was so outraged, he could have just quit and spoken out against it, taken the information to a friendly Senator or Congressman, etc. Instead, he willfully violated his oath over and over again. Sounds incredibly selfish to me and he deserved what he got, though he should have been executed IMO.

WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.

Re: Bradley Manning Verdict

And I'd add something else. Manning was in the military, thus forfeited his right to ever be the "messenger" in the first place.

This wasn't some pencil pusher at Apple upset because they stole some trade secrets from IBM and is now a whistleblower.

This is a guy who disobeyed direct orders and leaked secrets that compromised the safety of other military personnel because HE was opposed to something.

If he was so outraged, he could have just quit and spoken out against it, taken the information to a friendly Senator or Congressman, etc. Instead, he willfully violated his oath over and over again. Sounds incredibly selfish to me and he deserved what he got, though he should have been executed IMO.

I think most people don't realize that when you join the military you give up alot of your rights, biggest being freedom of speech.

Re: Bradley Manning Verdict

If he was so outraged, he could have just quit and spoken out against it, taken the information to a friendly Senator or Congressman, etc. Instead, he willfully violated his oath over and over again. Sounds incredibly selfish to me and he deserved what he got, though he should have been executed IMO.

There have been numerous cases in the past 10 years of people trying to do this the so-called "right way" and they have been threatened by the full force of the US Justice Dept. - both Bush's and Obama's. Ironically, it has been Obama, he of the "most transparent presidency ever", that has been the most ruthless in dealing with whistle-blowers. Most were professionally and financially ruined. Not exactly a lot of incentive their to do it your way.

Re: Bradley Manning Verdict

Originally Posted by JohnBKistler

How does that square with an oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States."?

Support and Defend =/= Interpret and Act when you enlist.

Dade is 100% correct. A military contract is basically a waiver of your Constitutional rights. You're military property at that point, irrelevant of your personal opinions. You're expected and agree to the orders given by those in your chain of command. A soldier, by definition and under their voluntary contract, cannot interpret what is and isn't constitutional.

There's a legal and ethical process in place if the military / country is doing something that doesn't confirm with your ethics and he ignored that process in favor of making it no longer about whatever outrage was occurring, favoring a action that made it about him personally.

WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.

Re: Bradley Manning Verdict

Originally Posted by JohnBKistler

There have been numerous cases in the past 10 years of people trying to do this the so-called "right way" and they have been threatened by the full force of the US Justice Dept. - both Bush's and Obama's. Ironically, it has been Obama, he of the "most transparent presidency ever", that has been the most ruthless in dealing with whistle-blowers. Most were professionally and financially ruined. Not exactly a lot of incentive their to do it your way.

Case such as?

I doubt they were similar to this case.

WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.

To be clear, I am not in favor of the way Manning exposed what he thought were government misdeeds: dumping documents and files on to WikiLeaks indiscriminately certainly may have endangered lives.

Snowden on the other hand seemed to be more discriminating in the information he released, and contrary to government claims, no one has been able to make the case he directly but anyone's life in danger.

But if all whistleblowers are treated the same, with the full force of the US government (and their allies) trying to basically crush their lives, you certainly can't expect people to report abuses via the official channels and you can expect more of type of leaks like Snowden and Manning.

Re: Bradley Manning Verdict

Originally Posted by JohnBKistler

How does that square with an oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States."?

Because you're defending it for everyone else, not necessarily yourself. When you swear in, you are swearing to abide by the orders of those appointed over you. When you wear the uniform, you can't just do whatever you want and call it "Freedom of Speech".

Sailor's Creed:
I am a United States Sailor.
I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America and I will obey the orders of those appointed over me.
I represent the fighting spirit of the Navy and those who have gone before me to defend freedom and democracy around the world.
I proudly serve my country's Navy combat team with Honor, Courage and Commitment.
I am committed to excellence and the fair treatment of all.

And the whole "giving up freedom of speech" thing is a little overblown. It is all about context.

If you go to a rally or something that is controversial and you are active duty and wear your uniform, you are effectively representing the US Military. You'll get in trouble for that. Don't be dumb. If you think it will get you in trouble, it probably will.

When I was in Penascola, we had a girl go to one of the local bars (won't name the name of the bar...but if you've been to Pensacola, you know what I'm talking about) and decided to participate in their wet t-shirt contest...she was wearing a command hat and someone video taped it, posted it on Facebook saying something like "Hey look! Navy girls showing it off!". Long and short, she got in trouble for it and went to a DRB and almost went to Captain's Mast (Article 15 for all you weirdo non-Navy folk ).

Re: Bradley Manning Verdict

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

Because you're defending it for everyone else, not necessarily yourself. When you swear in, you are swearing to abide by the orders of those appointed over you.

So, if you are in the military, and you are given orders that you think go directly against the Constitution...do you "bear allegiance" to the officer(s) that have given you your orders, or to the Constitution you have sworn to defend?

Re: Bradley Manning Verdict

Originally Posted by JohnBKistler

How does that square with an oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States."?

It's called military expression. The Supreme Court has ruled that while service members have the right to free speech it is a limited right. Whistleblowing and publicly supporting a candidate or political party is prohibted.

There is a process for both enlisted and officers to legally and constitutionly whisteblow and become invovled in politics. Chief among them is if you disagree with a order from a superior officer or the President you can renounce your enlistment or commission. Manning did not follow any of this procedures.

This is done to keep a clear line between the military and politics (i.e. government). Image if a 4 star General was able to express his political views publicly, or whisteblow some of the governments secrets. He/she could gain enough political captia to start a military-coup.

Re: Bradley Manning Verdict

Originally Posted by JohnBKistler

So, if you are in the military, and you are given orders that you think go directly against the Constitution...do you "bear allegiance" to the officer(s) that have given you your orders, or to the Constitution you have sworn to defend?

Any order that is unmoral or unconstitutional need not be follow. However like I said before there is a process to decline any order.

I disobeyed several orders during my Air Force career. But I always did it properly.

Oath of Service:"I, XXXXXXXXXX, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."