Who really cares if HEF taught this or not. It seems this is as productive as trying to determine how many angels fit on the head of a pin. Drugs are either God or the devil. It seems there should be no doubt which it is. By all means do all that is in your heart.

Having a close family member being a black witch Satanist, and a member of the Satanic Church of Louisville, I can't see her, or any of her coven members using any of the drugs in question in this discussion, for their rituals.

"The importance is that if a believer has a death door type trial and
gets to the point where he realizes he is not in faith. . .

He might go to the hospital and live to fight another day if
he views the hospital as only the “arm of the flesh” and
just another “missed it” in a tough trial.

But if he believes that the hospital is occult and that he is going to
the devil for help then he would let a death occur rather than denying
Jesus by going to the devil (the hospital, drugs, etc)"

As I have been reading the different posts I am just wondering
if what is being said is:
Taking drugs and going to the hospital is only going to the arm of flesh, and not occult, then it would be okay. But if you believe it is occult then it would be wrong. I don't see the consistency in the logic. If it is occult, it is of the devil. But if you only compromise because you don't have faith and take drugs that are obviously of the devil(because they sure aren't from God) then it is more justified, because it is only taking something from the devil that is not occult.

Seems like either way you are ingesting something that is from the devil, whether you want to call it occult or not. And even if it wasn't occult, it can still open the door to oppression because it is not from God.

I don't really feel there are that many people out there who went to Faith Assembly even care anymore if it is considered occult or not. Obviously it is a sensitive issue as to what happened to people, but at some point people need to forgive and go on. If that seems harsh, I am sorry, but that is what the christian needs to do.

So what! There are thousands who have given their lives for the world's causes and their demonic religions. If Christians had to take Omaha Beach the German's would still have it.
What is a soldier taught to do when people are killed and wounded all around him? If Christian's are going to take back from the devil what he has stolen then their will be casualties, real ones. Some of those should have stayed home in the first place until they were ready just as the Bible's rules of warfare state. There is no stigma in that. Some were tares that the devil planted to destroy the will to fight. FA was a pioneer work that made mistakes. Those things can get people killed and did. Some mistakes were their own, some were leadership. The Holy Spirit is more than capable to show what those were and correct them.
Do you know how Montgomery 'won' the battle of El Alamein? He took his best troops and keep storming one spot in the German line. It was a slaughter. Any commander will tell you that he loses a very high percentage of his best people in an assault. Jesus can spend us ANY way he chooses for His Kingdom and purposes. Whining about casualties and asking 'why' is not acceptable.

Sage said:
>>>>>Taking drugs and going to the hospital is only going to the arm of flesh, and not occult, then it would be okay.

No. I'm not saying it is OK. I have said it is “missing it” in a faith trial. I've said the
point in time when someone is without faith for the healing is sin (the lack of faith is the sin).

The question is what to do after realizing faith is missing – go get
help and live to fight another day or allow a death to occur because
the hospital is occult.

===========================================================

Sage said:
>>>>>>> drugs that are obviously of the devil(because they sure aren't from God)

All chemical compounds are capable of good or capable of evil.

chemical compounds can do good or do evil:

Drain Cleaner can clean the drain or poison a toddler.
Water can sustain life or, if overdosed enough, kill
Alcohol based disinfectants can clean a wound or, if drunk, cause blindness.
The communion wine (alcohol) can be used to remember Jesus death or used to get drunk

Drugs are just chemicals. They cause chemical reactions in the body .
They are not good nor evil in and of themselves.

I disagree that we can say, as you did, categorically that drugs (merely chemicals)
are not from God.

=============================================

Sage wrote:
>>>>>>>Seems like either way you are ingesting something that is from the devil, whether you want to call it occult or not. And even if it wasn't occult, it can still open the door to oppression because it is not from God.

I ask you to flesh this out with the Scriptures.

“not from God” and “oppression” are phrases we use a lot but they are
not clearly defined. To take a theology position as you are here
needs to be more concrete or else people could end up with all kinds of
strange beliefs –

“oppressed” as in occult deliverance?
“Oppression” needs deliverance?

---

Example:
Believer struggles with angry thoughts at his neighbor.
These thoughts are “not from God”
Is he “oppressed” by a demon? Needs deliverance?
Or needs to just resist the attempted demonic input into his thoughts?

If such an offense indicates demonic deliverance is required then
after deliverance – when he succumbs again to this easily besetting sin -
can the demon return with 7 more and his situation is far worse ?

PS: No I did not mean to indicate that angry thoughts are OK

So before your idea w/r a non-occult sin is oppression and thereby
on par with occult involvement – the terminology and ramifications/consistency of
this theology needs looked at.

========================================

Sage wrote:
>>>>>> I don't really feel there are that many people out there who went to Faith Assembly even care anymore if it is considered occult or not.

Not until they approach death's door in a trial – which is indeed relatively rare.

This teaching had huge and devastating affects on some in the past. The teaching
is still the same. The same devastating affects will probably happen again.

Plus it is a poor handling of the Scriptures (Gal 5:20 ) which is offensive.
Plus it is error.

So what! There are thousands who have given their lives for the world's causes and their demonic religions. If Christians had to take Omaha Beach the German's would still have it.
What is a soldier taught to do when people are killed and wounded all around him? If Christian's are going to take back from the devil what he has stolen then their will be casualties, real ones. Some of those should have stayed home in the first place until they were ready just as the Bible's rules of warfare state. There is no stigma in that. Some were tares that the devil planted to destroy the will to fight. FA was a pioneer work that made mistakes. Those things can get people killed and did. Some mistakes were their own, some were leadership. The Holy Spirit is more than capable to show what those were and correct them.
Do you know how Montgomery 'won' the battle of El Alamein? He took his best troops and keep storming one spot in the German line. It was a slaughter. Any commander will tell you that he loses a very high percentage of his best people in an assault. Jesus can spend us ANY way he chooses for His Kingdom and purposes. Whining about casualties and asking 'why' is not acceptable.

I don't really feel there are that many people out there who went to Faith Assembly even care anymore if it is considered occult or not. Obviously it is a sensitive issue as to what happened to people, but at some point people need to forgive and go on. If that seems harsh, I am sorry, but that is what the christian needs to do.

I remember coming back to Alabama on vacation after this teaching came forth and there was a buzz in the air. Everyone that I knew recognized the monumental significance in what had been said even if some of you cannot.

We hung on every word that came out of the mouth of HEF. "Brother Freeman said it, we believe it, that settles it." Now we wouldn't say it like that because brother Freeman also taught us about the dangers of 'trusting in man', but we embraced it. That attitude prevailed so strongly that even to this very day a small misstep in this area and you're history as far as being able to enjoy the full communion in the family of overcomers.

If anyone has doubts about the validity of that last paragraph then I challenge you to sift through the 5000 or so messages on this board and see how many times you can find an unqualified "brother-Freeman-was-wrong" statement. If you do find such a statement you'll find it preceded and followed by qualifiers and explanations (assuming that the person making the comments wanted to stay and enjoy communion with us, of course) as to why he/she dared disagree with brother Freeman. A disagreement with brother Freeman without the obligatory qualifiers relegates you to the dustbin of history. Even with the appropriate offerings you will find it difficult to retain street-cred with the faithful.

Why? Because all such disagreements fall into the easy-to-remember and oft-used cliche -- "they are criticizing what they once praised".

Anyway, as I was saying, the atmosphere had changed, grandma's liniment had suddenly become Faith Assemblies' ouija board -- your salvation now hinged upon whether or not you gave up the annual checkup at the temple of Satan. A true game-changer, it was.

I'm not sure what you mean about us "needing to forgive" and "move on" because I can't see how it fits into this discussion, but I hope I've given some indication as to why it matters. It matters for all of the reasons already outlined but it especially matters because brother Freeman said it mattered.

So what! There are thousands who have given their lives for the world's causes and their demonic religions. If Christians had to take Omaha Beach the German's would still have it.
What is a soldier taught to do when people are killed and wounded all around him? If Christian's are going to take back from the devil what he has stolen then their will be casualties, real ones. Some of those should have stayed home in the first place until they were ready just as the Bible's rules of warfare state. There is no stigma in that. Some were tares that the devil planted to destroy the will to fight. FA was a pioneer work that made mistakes. Those things can get people killed and did. Some mistakes were their own, some were leadership. The Holy Spirit is more than capable to show what those were and correct them.
Do you know how Montgomery 'won' the battle of El Alamein? He took his best troops and keep storming one spot in the German line. It was a slaughter. Any commander will tell you that he loses a very high percentage of his best people in an assault. Jesus can spend us ANY way he chooses for His Kingdom and purposes. Whining about casualties and asking 'why' is not acceptable.

I see you must have read the thread on non-resistance that James mentioned!

I really thought there were some deep seated issues that were unresolved earlier in the thread when for two weeks everyone shut down, that's why I encouraged the continuance. But as for me it isn't and hasn't been an issue so I felt comfortable staying out of it, but returned hoping to see everyone come to a unity(plus as much as I've endeavored to get people to join in on this forum and share their thoughts I didn't want to seem uninterested when people finally found something they were passionate about). I would encourage everyone to SETTLE this issue in your hearts, because an unsettled (or double minded, wavering) mind and heart can not exercise faith...'when at deaths door' or any other time. But I don't think I have anything else to add to this discussion, at this time, anyway.

I'm not offended, even with Jman giving his opinion that the teaching is offensive and an error; or that the views of some were putting GWB to sleep or boring her (yawn...).

In fact I was laughing this morning thinking about a couple of references made to water...

"Come on back in, James. The water is just now getting warm." ~Moulder<GRIN>

"I now find myself swimming in shark infested water"
~L.B. <lol>

Even though I was once a lifeguard and am not afraid of sharks, I think I'll just hangout on the shore for a while...

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

I was thinking that this thread represented one of the most reasoned and thought-provoking threads we've ever had. Sure there has been passion, that is expected; you've got the one 'side' (only using that term with reference to the positions taken in this thread) focused upon the core concepts involved the other 'side' focused (like a floodlight!) on the 'why-does-it-matter' and 'holding-fast-the-things-we-were-taught' part of the issue.

Sure do agree with that. Not really sure what the topic accomplished as far as peoples convictions, I just hope that some out there who have read this topic will see that Jesus Christ can be, and wants to be, their healer. It has been promised in God's word and worked in some of our lives for decades now. Faith works, as long as we are meeting the conditions, and it has seen people healed, raised from the dead, delivered from Satan and his snares, and given us peace in every situation in spite of circumstances.

Sometimes I think people like to say Brother Freeman was wrong just so they can justify their compromise. I suppose maybe only they may know if this is true or not. Brother Freeman was just a man, who God has used. Not perfect, to be sure, as none of us are. I couldn't count the times he told people to get in the Word themselves so they could get faith in their hearts, so when their trials came they would overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. I refuse to blame someone who told people to not follow him. I believe in personal responsibility, as we are all accountabily for ourselves. With some, I believe they are proud to be able to say they disagree with Faith Assemblies teaching, and have the courage to oppose Brother Freeman and say where they think he was wrong.

And for those who truly have questions, without the argumentative spirit, ask them. Private message someone, or a couple people and ask. You don't need have the world see your concern. I am certain any of us would be very happy to respond to your questions and concerns.

- I never met brother Freeman, but attended fellowships in NY state that followed his ministry and one fellowship that an itinerant word minister from FA taught at. I attended several faith seminars in Indianapolis after his death and some meetings at FA itself. I and my family still live the biblical faith message he taught. I could fill many pages with testimony of Jesus' faithfulness to heal, provide and deliver as we trusted Him alone. It has been over 30 years and He has NEVER failed us.

I would like to offer what the Lord showed me about brother Freeman. He did what Moses did by striking the rock. He misrepresented Jesus to the people. A minister cannot become angry with people who doubt, critical of the media, or develop a them vs. us attitude. We are all products of our opinions and background. When his opinions become accepted as truth a lot of peer pressure developed.

Just like Moses, God dealt with brother Freeman. God is not pleased with vituperative criticism of him. Moses did not enter the promise land nor did brother Freeman enter into all that God intended. These things do not make him a false teacher. Many true men of God had issues, even those in the Bible. God also allowed his death to allow people the opportunity to follow what was really in their hearts. Many did just that.

I have nearly all his tapes. I know of no one who teaches uncompromising, consistent Bible truth the way he did. Without faith it is impossible to please God. He had it and was anointed to teach Hebrews 11 faith to others.

Sometimes I think people like to say Brother Freeman was wrong just so they can justify their compromise.

I don't see how that anyone here is trying to 'justify their compromise'.

Many, and I'm not saying you, use the litmus test of adherence to brother Freeman as their sole source of discernment. That is a sad part of our legacy for it puts all disagreement out of the realm of discussion. When a person disagrees with something, even when it is a valid disagreement, the 'compromise' label is pasted upon their forehead and they are 'off the reservation'.

I agree with jman on this kind of posturing... it needs to be re-thunk. You cannot deny that a disagreement under these circumstances is viewed as compromise equivalent to having said something like 'hath God said?'; for proof of this you have to look no further than this thread.

- I never met brother Freeman, but attended fellowships in NY state that followed his ministry and one fellowship that an itinerant word minister from FA taught at. I attended several faith seminars in Indianapolis after his death and some meetings at FA itself. I and my family still live the biblical faith message he taught. I could fill many pages with testimony of Jesus' faithfulness to heal, provide and deliver as we trusted Him alone. It has been over 30 years and He has NEVER failed us.

I would like to offer what the Lord showed me about brother Freeman. He did what Moses did by striking the rock. He misrepresented Jesus to the people. A minister cannot become angry with people who doubt, critical of the media, or develop a them vs. us attitude. We are all products of our opinions and background. When his opinions become accepted as truth a lot of peer pressure developed.

Just like Moses, God dealt with brother Freeman. God is not pleased with vituperative criticism of him. Moses did not enter the promise land nor did brother Freeman enter into all that God intended. These things do not make him a false teacher. Many true men of God had issues, even those in the Bible. God also allowed his death to allow people the opportunity to follow what was really in their hearts. Many did just that.

I have nearly all his tapes. I know of no one who teaches uncompromising, consistent Bible truth the way he did. Without faith it is impossible to please God. He had it and was anointed to teach Hebrews 11 faith to others.

That is so true. A false statement doesn't a false teacher make. Also true is that when a person follows their heart it doesn't automatically mean they have left the Faith.

This thread has been far from boring! I won't even react to certain comments.

I dedicate this thread to the sister who I tried to hug and comfort in the nursery at FA. No one was talking to her. She was being shunned due to the death of her baby! It just did not happen once, it was status quo. If anyone failed a trial or believed other than the pulpit, you were put on the back burner. Buh-Bye!!!

I told her, "I know you were faithful." She replied, "Yes, we were."

Is there anybody here who actually has the nerve to say she needed to stay home anyway! I guess so!

I wonder if she is reading OO right now and following along? Does anyone care about that?

This thread has been one of the most honest, open, and valuable discussions ever on OO. IMO

I think that this thread may not only be adjusting our thinking toward the teaching at FA, but also our attitudes toward each other on OO and our dear brothers and sisters from years ago.

I think we may need a time out corner (spanking room) for OO! Either that, or learn what it really means to die out and love each other for who we are and where we are at in our hearts.

I value all opinions; the attitudes behind a few of the presentations of those opinions, not so much.

I have considered these things for a very long time. I am not sure what your problem is. If you think it is because I do not believe in non-resistance, I do. Have I seen real casualties? Yes. Dead ones. You see I have it settled. Jesus is sovereign and ALWAYS is perfectly good and right and loving in what He does. Further NOTHING can happen to a believer unless Jesus allows it, for his glory and our good. I will agree that my statement was rather direct and could be seen as 'unloving'. I was not totally appreciative of the statement made to me that this was in response to. I have little interest in how many angels fit on the head of a pin, or all the lyrics that praise that bloody rag!

When in a situation like this it is exactly right to hug her and love on her. I would NEVER suggest you tell them anything but kind words and pray for and with them. I am in a leadership position and have had to deal with losses like this. You deal with the other side of the situation in the future. But it has to be dealt with, by the person(s) themselves seeking Jesus in counseling or both. There is ALWAYS a reason and it is NEVER from God's side.

God is SOVEREIGN. No one can go to the hospital if God does not allow them to. I took my own adult son to the emergency room at his request. He had been in what most would consider a life or death trial for a week. When we arrived they did some preliminary testing and were ready to admit him. All the symptoms LEFT! He got the message and refused admission and we took him home. ALL the symptoms came back when we got home! We had to battle the devil for another several days and he was too weak to go to work for two more weeks. Essentially the same thing happened with another sister and her grand daughter in our fellowship. If they go to the medical system God does not fall off the throne and has allowed it or they would die before they got there. As long as they understand that this is NOT Bible faith, repent and submit to Holy Spirit Grace and training this will change. They do NOT become 2nd class Christians. One reason they were treated as such in FA was people were AFRAID. They did not have it settled that faith ALWAYS works and God is ALWAYS faithful for themselves.
OK. If drugs and the medical system are occult and one uses them so what? Repent, cast out the demons, and dig in for faith. This is NOT the unpardonable sin! If they are not, then repent, don't cast them out and dig in for faith. This is truly a non issue.
As for working in the medical system NO ONE can tell another person to quit or not quit a job. All that can be done is point out what the unscriptural issues are, pray and let the Holy Spirit do His job. Trust me He will. I was a a high school social studies teacher for 22 years. This is at least as unscriptural as the medical system. I got GREAT GRACE for 22 years and when He showed me to leave I did. I was used in the system and was a real light to the community. However they did not always see it that way and tried to fire me several times with quite a bit of additional persecution. I am a bit outspoken at times. (Y'all seem like nice Christian folks bless your hearts.) It does not take a lot to understand that peer pressure, opinions, and playing Holy Spirit were problems in FA. If the educational system was seen as it truly is then I am sure I would have gotten pressure as well. That is ALWAYS WRONG!

Drain Cleaner can clean the drain or poison a toddler.
Water can sustain life or, if overdosed enough, kill
Alcohol based disinfectants can clean a wound or, if drunk, cause blindness.
The communion wine (alcohol) can be used to remember Jesus death or used to get drunk

Drugs are just chemicals. They cause chemical reactions in the body .
They are not good nor evil in and of themselves.

I disagree that we can say, as you did, categorically that drugs (merely chemicals)
are not from God.

=============================================

Jman

Maybe everyone just skimmed over this statement and didn't see the significance of what is being said here?

This is a statement that capsulizes much of the disagreements in this thread. If true then we can all sit down, take a break, and say, whew! finally this whole question is resolved.

Surely we aren't going to move on to the next page without a comment here?

If this is a true statement then the whole occult/drug argument is out the window.

The issue is then placed squarely upon the person who is using the drug, not the drug itself.

How about it? Is there someone who wants to answer this from Scripture?

ALL, that is A double l, drugs sold by drug companies cause harm to the body, including aspirin. That is a given. If you do drugs, you do harm. None cure. They only mask the symptoms as aspirin does, or just 'control' the disease so you can live with it. You can find no where in the Bible that drugs are recommended or spoken of as an alternative. Jesus had a lot of opportunity to supply the information. Are they used in heaven? We are to expose the works of darkness, not argue about their darkness. All that you do in word or deed do in the name of Jesus. That does not include ingesting harmful substances into your body. That having been said, you are FREE to do it.
This is up to the individual and NO ONE can tell them not to do it. Over the pulpit, under the anointing these things can be taught. Peer pressure is NEVER acceptable. If you do not agree with a teaching you might want to do what a large # of His disciples did in John 6.
Can a bad tree bear good fruit i.e. drug companies?
It is 'good' for people to do drugs and the medical system to "live to fight another day". It is 'evil' if they do not. Oh really? This is thinking that is controlled by the thought patterns of good and evil not the Spirit of Life. Please review the principle in Genesis 2:9, 3:5. One of the purposes of the Holy Spirit baptism is to change thinking from the principles of good and evil to the Spirit of Life! 2 Cor 7:1.
Is there grace and time to grow? YES! We get all we need, but from our side we can stop growing any time we choose. Is their repentance if one stumbles? YES! Repentance is a change of thinking in the area of the sin which involves submitting to the Holy Spirit training. Please be aware that God is SOVEREIGN and predestination is true. No one lives or dies because they do or do not go to the medical system. The medical system is as likely to kill them as the symptoms the devil tells them they have. I do not think y'all have it settled as to who God is. He can do with everyone AS HE WISHES!

lesjude said:
>>>>> You can find no where in the Bible that drugs are recommended or spoken of as an alternative. Jesus had a lot of opportunity to supply the information

Remember Divine Healing is not in dispute here – the question is whether
or not med-science (administering drugs) is occult.

Lesjude said:
>>>>>>Over the pulpit, under the anointing these things can be taught

Consider what is to be taught over the pulpit.

Revelations is a valid concept – but I do not see people here acknowledging
that the pharmakeia teaching was a revelation. They seem to indicate
they think it is a literal Biblical concept just like other doctrines.

Lesjude said:
>>>>>>If you do not agree with a teaching you might want to do what a large # of His disciples did in John 6.

With your John 6 reference are you referring to John 6:66 wherein some disciples
separated from Jesus? If so are you saying if someone disagrees with a teaching
they might leave the fellowship?
Do you recommend 100% conformity? Disagree on on a single teaching and you
self-eliminate yourself from the church(es)?
Would you forbid people being allowed to disagree?
Would you say that the 5-fold never make mistakes while in the pulpit?

Lesjude wrote:
>>>>>It is 'good' for people to do drugs and the medical system to "live to fight another day". It is 'evil' if they do not. Oh really?

It is good to live on and not die from sickness.

Lesjude wrote:
>>>>>> Please review the principle in Genesis 2:9, 3:5. One of the purposes of the Holy Spirit baptism is to change thinking from the principles of good and evil to the Spirit of Life! 2 Cor 7:1

Please clarify what you mean here.

Lesjude wrote:
>>>>>>Please be aware that God is SOVEREIGN . . . . … . . He can do with everyone AS HE WISHES!

Since the sovereign God has limited Himself to be faithful to His Word
we know that His will is always to fulfill the healing promises and it
is not His will that believers die from sickness.

Your idea that God might will that some believers die from sickness
is a serious error. Die from martyrdom – yes this is possibly God's will
for some believers – then your statements apply but not w/r death via sickness.

If indeed the med science is NOT occult then it is an option for the arm of the flesh
not worse than claiming $$$ then borrowing from a friend, claiming protection then
getting a guard dog to provide the protection, praying against roaches then spraying pesticide – all these are
faith failures but they are not occult.

PS I do not mean to indicate that the "arm of the flesh" is OK. It is a faith failure.

You can find no where in the Bible that drugs are recommended or spoken of as an alternative. Jesus had a lot of opportunity to supply the information

Remember Divine Healing is not in dispute here – the question is whether
or not med-science (administering drugs) is occult. THIS IS THE REASON JESUS DID NOT SUPPLY THE INFORMATION. DRUGS OPEN THE DOOR TO THE ENTRANCE OF DEMONS WHEN USED TO DO WHAT HE PROVIDED (HEALING. )THE DEVIL'S PLAN OF GOOD AND EVIL DISINFORMATION WAS ALREADY WELL UNDER WAY.

MEDICINE IS BASED IN THE OCCULT AND IS NOT a true science for several reasons. I have already stated that drugs cure NOTHING, JUST create a false sense of 'health' and there is NOT one that does not harm the body. It is like a Shaman's stick. It is a stick, but when used for that purpose it is occult and summons demons and is used to open the door for their entry. I am sure you have looked up pharmakia in Vine's. The purpose of the chemicals as used by sorcerers was to invite spirits in as part of the occult ritual. The drugs provide the open door for them. This makes the teaching on drugs AS OCCULT A BIBLE DOCTRINE: "they think it is a literal Biblical concept just like other doctrines".

With your John 6 reference are you referring to John 6:66 wherein some disciples
separated from Jesus? YES If so are you saying if someone disagrees with a teaching
they might leave the fellowship? YES
Do you recommend 100% conformity? NO Disagree on on a single teaching and you
self-eliminate yourself from the church(es)?NO, One needs to seek Jesus in the word and prayer to find the truth. He will show one what is true or not and what to do about it. There has to be agreement on Bible doctrine. The Holy Spirit will either bring unity or remove those who are in disunity.
Would you forbid people being allowed to disagree?NO
Would you say that the 5-fold never make mistakes while in the pulpit? They do make mistakes.

>>>>>It is 'good' for people to do drugs and the medical system to "live to fight another day". It is 'evil' if they do not. Oh really?

Lesjude wrote:
>>>>>> Please review the principle in Genesis 2:9, 3:5. One of the purposes of the Holy Spirit baptism is to change thinking from the principles of good and evil to the Spirit of Life! 2 Cor 7:1
CLARIFICATION: When they ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil their thought patterns were changed. Satan then could control these thought patterns to begin his disinformation campaign. For instance it is good to fight in a just war for just causes. It is evil not to. I assume you know this is not what the Holy Spirit of Life (tree of life in the garden) teaches. Satan has nearly completed this process with many/most Christians calling evil good and what the Spirit Of Life says as evil. He does NOT want people to think that drugs open people to demons when used by the occult based medical system to 'cure' sickness. They get relief, are 'cured' but Satan gives to get. He then just bides his time. They are 'just' chemicals not good or evil, which is a new twist in his disinformation program. It seems he is getting help in this stream.
Another example of the plan is to see the basis of Christianity, Hebrews 11 faith, on the basis of good and evil. Here is what the Holy Spirit says: Job 13:15
15 Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.
Here is what you say:
It is 'good' for people to do drugs and the medical system to "live to fight another day". It is 'evil' if they do not.
The Spirit of Life says one thing and Satan's disinformation plan says another.
Satan has the majority of Christianity convinced that Bible faith is totally evil! There is no such thing as unbelief, everything is faith which makes Christians feel good. One gets NOTHING from God without Hebrews 11 faith. He will wait until the right time and steal their salvation.
Do I have to say there is grace to grow, repent, and dig in for Bible faith if you do drugs? This is no big deal. Just cast out the demons or fill up on faith till they leave of their own accord. Even if you do not think they are there an extra 'bath' never hurt anyone, and you might be surprised what is there.

You said: Since the sovereign God has limited Himself to be faithful to His Word
we know that His will is always to fulfill the healing promises and it
is not His will that believers die from sickness.
I never said it is His will. EVERYTHING has been preordained from before the foundation of the Earth including our free will choices. That includes doing drugs or not doing them. There are consequences for not exercising faith, willful sin, etc. Some get another chance for doing drugs and some Satan gets the right to kill. God is sovereign and it is His choice as to what happens.

lesjude said:
DRUGS OPEN THE DOOR TO THE ENTRANCE OF DEMONS WHEN USED TO DO WHAT HE PROVIDED (HEALING. )

Only if the drugs do something supernatural. That would mean that the believer
had sought somewhere other than God for something SUPERNATURAL.

To seek elsewhere from God for something that is just natural science is not
trafficking with demons because it is not supernatural.
(it is the arm of the flesh though – but not occult)

Everything that provides what God also provides is not necessarily demonic.

not demonic : guard dogs, security systems, neighborhood watch, cleaning a wound,
closing a wound, setting a bone, joy from a good book , joy from enjoying children

If it is supernatural then it is demonic (occult)
If it is natural science then it is not demonic.

----

lesjude said:
>>>>> The purpose of the chemicals as used by sorcerers was to invite spirits in as part of the occult ritual. The drugs provide the open door for them.
This makes the teaching on drugs AS OCCULT A BIBLE DOCTRINE

I think we agree here in part – The first century occult sorcerers used drugs is a demonic way.

Where we disagree is that the first century practices are the same as modern day practices.

I see no way that what you say here makes the pharmakeia teaching a Biblical doctrine
using normal interpretation methods – like we do on other Bible doctrines.

I need you to quote Vine's for me (if it is important to what you say) – my Vines is buried in a
box somewhere.

Lesjude wrote:
>>>>> Here is what you say:
It is 'good' for people to do drugs and the medical system to "live to fight another day". It is 'evil' if they do not.
The Spirit of Life says one thing and Satan's disinformation plan says another.

I actually said “It is good to live on and not die from sickness. “

You misquoted me. (or maybe you quoted yourself and attributed it to me?)

Lesjude – what you did here is make a straw argument. You redefined
my position with a false representation. Of course then it should be easy
to destroy the false representation.

Consider my actual words = “ It is good to live on and not die from sickness”
and decide of you want to say these words are from Satan.

Here is what you say:
It is 'good' for people to do drugs and the medical system to "live to fight another day". It is 'evil' if they do not.
The Spirit of Life says one thing and Satan's disinformation plan says another.

I actually said “It is good to live on and not die from sickness.
I know I read that going to the medical system would allow you to fight on another day. Is that not what you meant or did someone else say that? If you are going to split hairs like this I am wasting my time. The obvious implication of even your statement is that going to the medical system is good if it allows you to live and evil if you do not go and die.
I would not even attempt to explain to you the occult nature and occult roots of medical science. It is not even a true science. Do your own investigation of its origins and what they teach in many med schools about the history of medicine.
I suggest you get Confessions of a Medical Heretic [Paperback]
M.D. Robert S. Mendelsohn. There is also much information in any public library.
Dig out your own Vine's please. I do not type very fast or well.

Moulder, in a different thread you referenced this healing thread
mixing it with the other mark of the beast topic.

I am not clear for sure on your meaning, but I think I got it.

( I hope I am not making up an entirely new question )

you said:
'Can one safely rely on God to feed and provide without taking 'the mark'? '

Are you saying => if we cannot safely go to death's door as I say here in
this thread then can we safely go to 'starvation's door' at the time of the mark?

Sorry I haven't answered this question yet... (it is hard to accuse others of sidestepping pertinent questions when I'm guilty myself!) so here is my answer:

Yes, not having faith for healing is just as dangerous as not having faith in God's provision if one finds themselves in the midst of tribulation, both can result in death. We know that there will be a large number of martyrs that come out of tribulation (that fact is stated in the book of Revelation and implied by the quote "they overcame him by the blood of the lamb and loved not their lives unto death") with this in mind one has less reason to think that death won't be the ultimate price one may need to pay in the tribulation. It is a fact that in our circles people have paid the ultimate price, which has formed the direction of this thread and given rise to all of the discussion concerning this topic.

What we are considering is not whether Christians are willing to die for their faith -- they are, they have, and they will -- the question is: did they die for the wrong reasons? Did they die because of a doctrine that may not have biblical support? I'm not taking away from the nobility of dying for what you believe, many did and I have nothing but the greatest respect for those individuals.

Those that survived the death of their loved ones have found their faith shaken to the core and many have given up because of what happened. Many of the kids from such situations remain in a state of confusion to this day because of this.

Many others gave up because their conscience wouldn't let them continue this walk of faith knowing that they had sought help from a source that they believe to be satanic in nature. Their faith is shipwrecked.

Anyone who suggests that the subject now under consideration is somehow unimportant or not worthy of our attention is severely limited in their capacity for compassion for those groups I mentioned. This lack of compassion isn't unusual however, we are known for it.

Jesus said: Mat25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
(we say: You shouldn't have been sick in the first place and you sure shouldn't have been sick in a hospital, you know that is no place for a Christian... a Christian in a temple of witchcraft? Indeed!)

Our doctrine has gotten in the way of true love for our brethren, not only those who are sick physically but those who are shipwrecked in their faith.

(Don't everyone shout me down here, you know it's true even if it doesn't apply individually to you.)

Just as an aside, we do the same thing when we treat people in the denominational system as pagan worshipers instead of treating them as Christians in need of enlightenment... but that is another thread!<grin>

Given the implications of the whole doctrine that says that *ALL* medical science is OCCULT and that *ALL* drugs are demon-inspired, I'd say that it's high time we got this one right.

Today, to some, even bringing up the question is proof that one has already left the faith and is now actively pursuing some reason to justify their own inadequacies. I can't speak for the others, but I can tell you that this is the furtherest thing from my mind.

Some (on both sides) have stated their positions unequivocally and
refuse to acknowledge any of the valid questions that have been raised
-- your prerogative -- but just so you know that we know -- there are
some glaring inconsistencies in your position. I would imagine that
the cognitive dissonance must be horrendous, <grin> but it shouldn't
keep you from examining why you believe what you believe. Trust me,
your faith will be so much more solid if you do.

(I'm recycling this private note that I wrote to someone because I hate to waste time doing it again -- hopefully no one will begrudge me for doing so!)

The post jman did, one of the last ones about drugs being neither good or evil in and of themselves, was pretty thought provoking. It certainly made me think. If true, it does clear up some of those nasty inconsistencies that plague any attempt to classify them all as evil or even all as good.

If I understand him correctly it places the responsibility of the evilness or goodness squarely upon those that use them. Let's face it, most have some pretty bad consequences if used incorrectly, and even when used according to the best knowledge we have at this time, they still can be deadly. But, by taking the view that the chemical compounds are not inherently evil, it becomes a matter of usage that determines the rightness or wrongness of those compounds.

Take marijuana (no not literally!) it is a natural plant that grows along side of wheat or corn. If the grain isn't 'evil' then it is hard to label the marijuana as 'evil'. It boils down to how the substance is used. If one wants to get stoned out of his head is it the marijuana's fault? Is the marijuana the evil culprit or is it the heart of the individual?

If what jman postulated is true it is the user that creates the situation where it becomes sinful. If the same person gathers the plants and makes a hemp rope should it be called the devil's rope? I think not.

btw, I've never used marijuana except for once or twice at friends parties before I was saved and even then I was too afraid to inhale because I hated to be out of control. So yes, Bill Clinton and I have something in common! I say that to let you know that I'm not some fringe hippy wanting to legalize the drug!

What about glasses (this has been brought up...), I have a pair that I use for reading and have used them for that purpose even before we moved away from FA, twenty plus years ago. So no, I don't have any problem with them. That said, I have no problem with anyone acting their faith by not using them either. That certainly is one way a person can act their faith.

Jman has given us a lot to think about. I can't see how that view is contrary to what the Bible presents. It's kinda like the wine/alcohol thing, there's nothing inherently wrong with it, but it can be sinful in the hands of a person hell-bent on sinning.

There you go again with the 'good' and bad ('evil'). You do not grasp the SOVEREIGNTY of God. If you did you would find the answers to these issues. I really have tried to explain this with examples from our lives. When you look at the experiences of others that you do not understand, except on the basis of good and evil, you will miss it every time.
Do you really believe that ANYONE can go or not go to "the arm of the flesh" for ANY REASON if God did not preordain it, including their own free will choices? We do not know what comes after if they live, but from our side and theirs it is repent and go on with Jesus. If they choose not to go on with God He will have someone intercede until His perfect plan for their lives comes about. Do I have to say that the intercession, and the result was already determined. This is NOT fatalism! It is FAITH and a REST!
Quit the thought patterns of good and evil and get in the word. Here is a good attitude to start with: Deuteronomy 29:29
29 “The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Here is what I mean by allowing the Holy Spirit to change thought patterns from the spirit of good and evil to the Spirit of the tree of life.
John 16:12-14
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
We CAN know the answers. Our responsibility is to seek them from the Holy Spirit mind set, not the spirit of good and evil. It begins with understanding the SOVEREIGNTY of God.
Please study out Job's attitudes and mind set. It is the correct one and he did not have nearly the light we do. I am NOT talking about a Job's trial here, but his thought patterns contrasted with his wife's and his 'friends'.