I once pulled a rope down through a fixed sling with moderate drag, I pulled about 3m before the rope came down, I assume that the sling melted through. I am now cautious about using different rope diameters, put the knot on the skiny side to jamb it.

I've heard of people clipping into the long tails on an EDK, but didn't die (saw it before thye unclipped). I now tie 2 EDK's with a short tail.

On 11/09/2013 mikllaw wrote:>I once pulled a rope down through a fixed sling with moderate drag, I pulled>about 3m before the rope came down, I assume that the sling melted through.> I am now cautious about using different rope diameters, put the knot on>the skiny side to jamb it.>

I've done the same thing and blew the anchor. Doing a new route in Indian Creek and we thought that since we were just rapping once that we'd thread a piece of webbing and come back the next day and replace it with a proper anchor. Moderate drag and it was unbelievable how easily the webbing snapped.

Maybe I am complacent* because I found half of it to be empathic posts, and not big heaps of real 'meat on the bone' safety type stuff. The really interesting stuff (for me), were the first hand 'trip report' style of experiences passed on, particularly some of the links within it.

(*Stuff I consider should be common sense and that I take for granted?)

The main message I got out of it, is that it is truly amazing what some other people will take for granted regarding their safety; and that the next generation seem to be re-inventing the wheel, unless older climbers (like Jim Donini), pass on their hard-won wisdom, and even then, ... they sometimes don't get things right! ~> see next pic. He was part of a three person team that couldn't pull this rope down...

I also loved this pic of a canyoning anchor, from one of the links...
... I would be burying that rock as deep as possible, before abseiling off it. ;-)

On 12/09/2013 singersmith wrote:>On 11/09/2013 mikllaw wrote:>>I once pulled a rope down through a fixed sling with moderate drag, I pulled>>about 3m before the rope came down, I assume that the sling melted through.
(snip)>>I've done the same thing and blew the anchor. Doing a new route in Indian>Creek and we thought that since we were just rapping once that we'd thread>a piece of webbing and come back the next day and replace it with a proper>anchor. Moderate drag and it was unbelievable how easily the webbing snapped.

Mikl / singer; What size / type of tape, and how new was it?

I tend to carry and use for abseil anchors (if necessary), prusik cord. So far I have not had issues melting/cutting through them when pulling the rope/s, however if I ever come across something similar insitu, I consider them to be one-off use items and wouldn't re-use it without replacing same.

On 12/09/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>So far I have not had issues melting/cutting through them when pulling>the rope/s, however if I ever come across something similar insitu, I consider them to be one-off use items and wouldn't re-use it without replacing same.

To me it rammed home the danger of rapping on different diameter ropes

Didn't feel like typing out all the boring details but I suppose for safety issues it is a good service.

Was new supertape, the kind everybody uses for their chalk bag belt (9/16", I think- the thick stuff) in case they ever need to leave it for an anchor. We were a lot more concerned about the tree we were rapping off than the webbing; I don't remember why we were such knuckleheads about leaving a biner or two since we were coming back anyway.

The rap went over a rolling edge and down into a chimney. At the bottom there was actually a fair bit of drag so we were going to do the trick where one guy keeps his rap device on the pull side and stays 8-10 meters off the ground and rides it down. The other guy pulls down on the other side and stretches to rope out as much as possible then releases it such that the rope recoils back up and produces slack at the anchor. Since we were in a chimney we were both able to get to the same point around 8m off the base. We pulled through maybe a couple of meters when the thing blew and we both decked. The worst bit was that a log and rocks came down with it.

Strangely, when we got to the ground a bit dinged up and feeling sorry for ourselves everybody down there was pissed off with us and giving us the "WTF!?! Why didn't you guys yell ROCK!?" Turns out that a VW bus size block had come off the top while we were up there, but at least 50m away from us and around the corner and they all assumed we had trundled it.

> He was part of a three person team that couldn't pull this rope down...

Take another look at the photo of the rope that hung up. It looks like the rope was threaded through the left chain, then through the right chain, and then BACK through the left chain. I don't see how this could happen if the rope was threaded normally.

It makes sense that a rope could hang-up in this position, as the chain links are acting like an improvised stitch plate.

On 11/09/2013 mikllaw wrote:>I've heard of people clipping into the long tails on an EDK, but didn't>die

I did this last year, descending from a big day in the mountains. Eighteen hours after leaving the hut, it was pitch black, cold and we were pretty screwed. I tied an euro with long tails, clipped one of the correct strands and the tail of the other. Wind was howling, vis was shit, the rope was blowing everywhere...

I don't think tying two euros with short tails solves the problem. Two euros are no safer than one. And even if they were, no matter what you do there is always scope to fvck it up.

I always use the same setup – choose a tried-and-tested system that makes sense to you, stick to it and always check everything twice. Don't get distracted at the point of committing and stay clipped to the anchor until you're fully set-up and you've bounce-tested the system.

On 16/09/2013 huwj wrote:>>I don't think tying two euros with short tails solves the problem. Two euros are no safer than one.
- I think it solves that problem of clipping the free ends. I'd like to do some work on EDKs rolling, particularly with new and mismatched rope sizes

>And even if they were, no matter what you do there is always scope to fvck it up.
-too true

>I always use the same setup – choose a tried-and-tested system that makes>sense to you, stick to it and always check everything twice.
- good advice, you should be able to do it in the dark

>...stay clipped to the anchor until you're fully set-up and you've bounce-tested the system.
- more excellent advice>

X-link to another thread, where some further discussion has happened re the stuck-rope (in the chains photo above), in this thread.

Post edit:

Under the floorboards (in the future), DMWdesign posts a link containing the following statement;

>The Overhand Knot with tails leading performed best for tying two ropes together in the rope pull down tests.>Wet ropes required double the load to pull down.

I have noticed that 'preferred' rope joining knots, have waxed and waned over the years, but one thing hasn't, and that is there will always be exceptions to standard results/expectations. The trick is to not have those exceptions ending up killing you or anyone else.

When abseil ropes are pulled, they can get snagged in many remarkable ways despite whatever knot is used to join them, and competent adventurers are knowledgeable in self rescue techniques using equipment at hand in such situations.

Re loads applied.
When the unexpected happens, the loads involved can often be a lot higher during any retrieval jiggery pokery, and wet ropes add to that again!

Adopt a system, know it thoroughly so that checking routines continue to work even in adverse and fatigue situations, & deal with any snafu's by pre-empting them wherever possible.
=============================================================================================================

On 30/06/2014 BBSR wrote:>On 30/06/2014 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:>>Excuse my ignorance but, is EDK = European Death Knot = a double overhand?>>EDK= European Death Knot.>>A double overhand is different I think. I believe the EDK is an overhand>bend or overhand flat knot.

On 30/06/2014 BBSR wrote:>On 30/06/2014 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:>>Excuse my ignorance but, is EDK = European Death Knot = a double overhand?>>EDK= European Death Knot.>>A double overhand is different I think. I believe the EDK is an overhand>bend or overhand flat knot.

And I am reassured - as the sensible 5-paragraph article clearly links five references. You hint at disappointment at Wikipedia... because? Or are you yet another person who blithely dismisses the usefulness of Wikipedia whether or not used sensibly?

1. The Art of Knotting and Splicing (4th ed.) - as published by the the United States Government - Naval Institute Press,

And you can see the relevant portion written at pages 52 and 53 were you to seek out that book as authorised by the United States government. How authoritative do you want to get?

2. "On Knots and Swamps", in Turner, J.C.; van de Griend, P., History and Science of Knots, K&E Series on Knots and Everything. Singapore: World Scientific Publishing.

World Scientific Publishing holds the rights (since 1970) to publish the complete set of Nobel Lectures from 1901. Why would any person doubt their manner of collating fact?

3. Ashley, Clifford W. (1944), The Ashley Book of Knots, New York: Doubleday.

The Wikipedia entry for this book, if I may so cite it, reminds us - quite sensibly - of its age and of its relevance; 'The Ashley Book of Knots was published in the days of natural fiber cordage; the commentary on some knots may fail to address their behavior when tied in modern synthetic fiber ropes.'

Preferred Knots for Use in Canyons - from Bushwalker's Wilderness Rescue Research Page. Long paper with pull-test data on a number of knots used to join ropes, including measurement of the force to drag the knots across edges. The author concludes that the flat-overhand is his preferred choice and that the flat-figure-eight is dangerous.

Chockstone Tech Tips/JoinRopes - good pictures of knots and discussion. No testing. They express a preference for the figure-eight follow-through, and show the flat-figure-eight knot with a skull-and-crossbones.

Edelrid tests - (in German, with much of it translated into English). Test data on three knots: the flat-overhand, the double-fisherman's tied as a flat-knot (photo at right from their page), and on a new type of flat-knot. He translates it as "Triple Fisherman's", but it's not. The flat-double-fisherman's didn't invert at all in his tests. Cool! People have asked me about it, but I haven't done any tests.

And like The Mountaineers, Wikipedia is a non-profit organisation based on community activity and education. The policies of Wikipedia combine verifiability and a neutral point of view. As does Tom Moyer for descriptions above at reference 4. - citing one German and two Australian web-pages, inclusive of the one you are looking at just now. Or is Chockstone not to be considered a collective of knowledge, and hence not authoritative enough for us to remain safe on rope, too?