Do we stick with the lower, Darwinian order, or do we reach for our potential to manifest something greater? That is the question that faces humanity now, once and for all, and it will decide our fate.

I believe that we have truth, justice, and love on our side in this cause.

The greatest successes of the left have been tied to spirituality. MLK and Ghandi were both directly tied to the universality of these truths. They are innate forces, greater than we are. Education alone does not have the force of spiritual commitment, because the mind is but a tool of the soul.

Strangely, although we in the left have spiritual truth on our side and our greatest victories have been tied to the power of the spirit, we have come to largely desdain spirituality, instead focusing on the intellectual alone, and refusing to see that that approach produces limited gains.

Religion has two sides, like everything else, the corrupt and the genuine, and our message resonates with the genuine.

Instead, the right-wing, whose message is contrary to all long held spiritual truth, has successfully, and falsely, tied itself to religion.

I believe we must seize the truth of our message at the spiritual level, cultivate our ties to genuine religion, and ground ourselves individually in a commitment to the above eternal verities, and in the process transform ourselves into the power that can overcome the lower forces that are arrayed against humanity.

That was the message of MLK, it was the Message of Ghandi, it was the message of Jesus, it was the message of The Buddha, it was the message of Socrates.

Well, for me, being spiritual is different than religion. I'm not a religious person but I have become spiritual through love. Love is the great gift of the universe and it should inform how we structure ourselves personally, and our society. It should also inform us intellectually. When that happens, a lot of our problems would fall away.

Yes, I agree that spiritual is different than religion, but I also know that there are a lot of spiritual people who are religious, MLK for example. My point is simply that we need to ground our movement in genuine spirituality:)

Being spiritual is about garnering the positive energy and love that surrounds us and living beyond just the material world that you can see. It informs us intellectually because if we have love our ideas that we formulate will be empathic and compassionate.

Makes sense. I think love and positive energy are part of the material world, but I understand that some would disagree. I was just wondering if you meant that being spiritual entails a belief in spirits; the etymology of the world would mean so. That's mostly the reason I don't like it. I don't believe in a soul or spirit because there is no evidence for it, but I believe in love and energy. I believe they are created in the brain and in the exchanges between brains (not necessarily human brains).

All are physical, including love and positive energy or soul or spirit. I believe in a 'Will' being the organizing principle for our material world. Where is the 'Will'? It is manifested in the organization of our material world and it is nowhere else. You can see the 'Will' everywhere you look if you open up your mind's eye. Contemplate and you may transcend the curse of material 'properties' to achieve the understanding of 'relations'. Love is of the latter kind and it is far closer to the ultimate reality than the 'properties' kind which emphasized an objective reality that pins one down to very concrete areas of endeavors like a straitjacket. There is a relational reality that works better than the objective reality.

In physics' electromagnetism, the objective reality is that of electric charges and they have 'properties' but the relational reality is that of electric and magnetic fields and they form 'relations' between electric charges. One can totally discard electric charges and deal entirely with electric and magnetic fields' interactions (and understand far better in terms of being able to predict behaviors reliably without delving into the nitty-gritty details of the material compositions of the sources of the fields).

Your response describes how I feel. It is the question that faces humanity and will decide our fate. I agree that the time is now, once and for all.

I was focused on how to increase the power of Love, and decrease the power of money. Pointing out that Love is more powerful in the spiritual order, but recognizing money has more power in the Darwinian order helps me in my understanding of this issue.

Should we be spreading Love more, while we are spreading info to others who remain asleep or uninformed?

First, I want to thank you again for posting this thread. It really is the central issue that we face, and you made that point succinctly.

To your point. . . It really is a very interesting question . . . how we spread love. I think that firstly we spread it through a love of truth and justice. As someone once said, justice is love on the level of society. If we believe in truth and justice, and we are willing to take the hit for these beliefs, then we increase the space in the world for love to flourish, we empower love.

I think that is important. It is through acting to promote these other aspects of love, in the sense of agape, of cosmos, that we take the concept of love out of the realm of abstraction and bring it into the realm of practice.

Also, I think we must come to grips with the lower half of our own natures. We all have that aspect in us. I believe the nature of the world is duality, is paradox, and only in coming to grips with this - that we have a choice between our own lower and higher natures, and the lower and higher aspects of existence around us, and we Consciously Choose the higher . . . only then can we become capable of transforming the long established order of human society, which is, and with few exceptions always has been, based on the lower order.

And so in persuing truth and justice, and those other aspects of love expressed within the social order, we can make space for the far greater potential of love, thus moving beyond mere survival into the potential of true Being..

How can we spread Love? I can see that competitiveness and incentive seems responsible for achievements. It also guarantees a world of winners and losers. Now we have our states competing with each other for large corps to bring jobs. Every representative from every district must bring home the bacon to get reelected. My county hired a consultant for $100,000 because our commissioners felt like our state was not giving us our share of the pie. It didn't occur to them that other counties could hire more expensive consultants and the results would be the same. It's absurd.

Watching Morning Joe this morning a guest referred to some documentary in 1968 about hunger in this country. There were so many calls to Congressmen that within two weeks, Bob Dole and George Mcgovern shook hands on a bipartisan bill that wiped out hunger for many years.

If we had leaders that believed that our best hope for the future was a mantra to "Protect the Weak", as opposed to bringing home the bacon, our nation would be transformed. Create a world where greed is abhorred, and laziness is tolerated but unpopular. Meritocracy should still be rewarded, and criminality should be punished. If we could remove the everyday stress from people that fear for their next meal, I believe many of the weak would turn out greatness instead of a meager existence.

Truth, justice, and equality can be achieved with transparency and accountability, using existing technology. Human nature does include a dark side, and only Love can transform it.

How do you suggest getting the "world" to come to grips with the lower half of our own natures, this duality, when they can't even come to grips with adding and subtracting, with right and wrong, with male and female?

How do you get the whole world to even recognize truth and justice, let alone love them?

How do you get humanity, which as even you admitted, has a long established history of being a lower order species, to become an enlightened one? Their "self interest" is consumed with mere survival, and promises of love and true Being are mere abstracts to them.

It doesn't matter how appealing or fabulous a concept is, if the work required to achieve and maintain that concept is more than someone wants to pay for it...they will pass it by.

Maybe one day humanity will just get plain tired of fighting, and seek an alternative approach. Maybe one day humanity will wise - up and realize .. the energy used in fighting and destroying .. could be used towards creating and building better lives for ourselves.

Interesting, how you speak of humanity as if you yourself were not human. . . Wow.

What you are saying is what you want to believe, because it reflects the bankrupsy of your own soul, but you may find the cosmic balance is shifting, because the corrupt forces at play here were not content to simply glut themselves, but have passed over into abject evil, thus igniting latent counter-forces.

Wow. I speak about the things I have seen, the things we all know to be true about the human race-MYSELF INCLUDED-and ask you sincerely, as someone suggesting that they have discovered enlightenment, HOW you believe the rest of the world will come choose enlightenment for themselves, and your response is that I'm evil ("how much worse can it get?") and comparable to Lucifer. Please....please...continue to shower me with your tolerance and love and peace and show me the path to become as enlightened as you are!

But here's the funny thing...the Christian Bible claims that Lucifer said "I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High".

Sounds an awful lot like he thought he could make himself a higher Being, transform himself into the most supreme of Beings. I rather think your words compare more closely with his than mine do.

Lol!! Now how did I know I'd see you here?! I wondered though...I haven't seen you in a while. As for your comment above...you couldn't possibly be more correct, & I don't think anyone will be able to say it any better than that! Love to you beautifulworld!

Yes, Love conquers all. Just ask a mother holding her infant child. Nothing can break that kind of love. I would even say love makes the world go round. Without love you have nothing. Hope that’s not too mushy, but it really is true.

And, hey if our politicians knew anything of love, they'd hire economists who would implement a loving economic system to support the needs of human beings, first and foremost. Profit would take a back seat and would become nearly meaningless.

At this very moment, my wife of forty-seven years and my youngest five year old granddaughter are in the living room playing the old maid card game. I feel very fortunate my family is close and the grandkids often spend the night. If the politicians loved ALL kids the way parents love their kids this would be a wonderful world.

Take care that operations were clean - start to finish - normal part of every single process. And the business's would still be making money. Most assuredly if every worker was being paid a living wage.

It really isn't too much to ask. And, it would benefit everyone, including those who hold the capital, for a loving, nurturing economy would make our society so loving and wonderful that no one would dislike it, including the bloody 1%. They'd be happy too.

Oh, how I want to agree with you! I do agree that I wouldn't trade it for money, but are you underestimating the power of money? After many hours of thought about the real power of money, I'm not sure whether money is more powerful than Love or not.

Ok, if Love is more powerful, then why is it harder to come by? Why do people have the void that you describe as a lack of Love. They then use money instead of Love to fill this void, making money powerful.

Of course the potential for Love to be more powerful exists, but I'm wavering on whether it is or not

Money is nothing if only a few have it. There's no love in an economic system that rapes and pillages the masses. We need a loving economic system that supports and works for the masses, that puts people over profit!

Love doesn't have to be harder to come by, but in our society it is because we live in a fear-based society. Fear causes people not to love and to worry and cling to things like money. It isn't that money is more powerful, it is more that it is more prevalent due to the way our society is structured and the way we are taught things have to be.

I have experienced the power of Love. The happiness and fulfillment I receive, (and give), from Love is greater than pleasure or anything else! My concern is that fear, worry, our society, etc., seems to lead us away from what we've learned, and towards money. Love can be more powerful than fear, but sometimes isn't.

If money is more prevalent, and more desired, then I find myself wondering if money is more powerful.

Maybe Love is sometimes harder to come by because we are only able to be filled with it up to a point. Love flows through us and out of us, creating a void ideally filled with more Love. As we Love others more, we can be filled again with Love, but we should continue giving it instead of holding it in. The void can be filled with something else, something that satisfies our void temporarily.

We can each have this continuing Love, and have it collectively when Humanity embraces and spreads it daily. Instead we follow our inclinations to get back in the rat race in an attempt to provide ourselves with security of having enough food, etc. Money provides the illusion of that, and it's very powerful.

Yes it's interesting that your comments have been voted down, I had already wondered about that. I have not voted down any posts on this thread, and very rarely do at all. I've read enough of your posts to believe you have the heart and spirit to help in our cause.

I am followed sometimes by a bunch of sad sack trolls that defend right wing, fear mongering objectives such as those of ALEC and the NRA, oh, and corporations and banks, too.

They are intimidated by too much talk of love. God forbid we institute an economic system that puts people over profit. Oh no. Then they might have to share. You see, we live in a society that is so vapid, so lacking in love that we all suffer greatly and they don't even realize that, they, the greedy folks, suffer the most.

They also need our Love, as well as pity, because they may never realize it. Their life will not know the joy of Love, regardless of what their money can buy. If their greed causes them to commit criminal acts, they should be punished. Lovingly, of course.

I agree. The best thing we can do is to convince them how much better their own lives could be if they were willing to share. To live in a world where everyone has enough, where no one suffers needlessly. They would like it too, they just don't realize it.

Money has no power. It is created as a means to an end of quantifying the value of goods and services for easy trade. When accumulated and offered for a service, it is one's self-interest in having money that is a powerful motivator. That interest can be based upon genuine need, love for the well-being of another, or simply the opportunity for personal self-gratification with whatever the money can buy. That interest can also be tempered with the self-interest of holding to one's principles if the service being requested in exchange for the money is not entirely agreeable to the person the money is being offered to. The bottom line is that the only power is that of self-interest even when it comes to doing things for one's own feelings of love or for one's own principles. It is the nature of one's self-interest that determines the nature of power in motivating the activities of people in the world. It is a question of what's more powerful among the masses of humanity; a self-interest in personal gratification or a self-interest in the collective well-being of humanity. Unfortunately, that question has already been answered by the ongoing wars and social abuses of civilization.

Self interest is a raw, primal, and understandable instinct. You nailed it with this, "it's a question of what's more powerful among the masses of humanity; a self-interest in personal gratification or a self-interest in the collective well-being of humanity." Your final sentence is unfortunately true as well.

No, love is not powerful enough to change civilization because love is a very subjective quality. Everyone does not love the same subjects or love to the same degree. Our inherent individual differences produce different degrees of love for different subjects and everyone cannot be made to love in general for the betterment of everyone else. People can however be politically imposed upon for the betterment of everyone else but that would require a group of people to be in a position power to impose such measures which in turn would spur the resentment and perhaps even rebellion of all those not in agreement with the measures.

If Love was spread and increased in power, and the group required to impose upon others for the betterment of everyone was incorruptible because of transparency and accountability, the resentment or rebellion might be less than you think. There are probably people who resent fire hydrants, but realize that it's futile to speak against them because they're so obviously a good thing.

Love should be the primary focus of our government and laws. Love should be the basis of a government Constitution, with all people are equal, but rewarding meritocracy, and punishing criminality. All of this can now be accomplished with technology.

Whether Love is a subjective quality or not, it can become more powerful, even powerful enough to change civilization.

Love can't be spread and increased in power as it is based upon the individual wills, desires, and perspectives of those feeling it. There are people who resent having to accept any freedom of religion outside of their own perspectives. There are people who resent having to accept any equality of races or genders. There are people who resent having to accept the rights of people of a different sexual orientation. And there are people who resent paying taxes for the social welfare of others in society. Such people are not few in this society or others around the globe and no amount of promotion of love is ever going to change their positions. Worse yet, such people will view their own perspectives as being the love for all in wanting an orderly society that conforms to their self-justified perspectives. It matters not to them how much transparency and accountability exists for those in power if the one's in power are not of their social perspectives. This is why love has never been and can never be powerful enough to change civilization. It would not only require a majority of people in power to impose it, it would also require a majority of people willing to go along with it.

My hope is that Love is different than what you believe. Not necessarily individual wills, desires, and perspectives, but a power that can be felt together.

Two examples of people sharing feelings together would be WW11, when people united in every way to save the world. Those who were greedy during that time were extremely unpopular and scared for their lives. There was indeed less greed.

On 9/11, I remember closing my store so we all could go give blood, waiting hours along with thousands of others, with no one complaining. The people united and sacrificed for the cause.

In both examples, people began to become less united as time went on, and I understand that Love wasn't necessarily the primary motivation. If Love were to ever become the world's primary motivation to unify, Love would spread and increase in power. Unless we Love...we die.

World War 2 was a time of global war, not saving the world. Japanese Americans were imprisoned in concentration camps and their property confiscated while Jewish Germans, Roma, and homosexuals were imprisoned, experimented on and killed by the Nazis. Korean, Filipino, and other women of the Japanese Empire were subjected to sexual servitude while the abuses of British subjects in South Africa, India, Bengal, intensified leading to widespread starvation in Southeast Asia. People coming together for a war effort is nothing outstanding in the cause of love as it is what people have ever done in opposition to their enemies who are doing the very same thing for themselves. Whether as allies in WW2 or as loyal Union citizens during the American Civil War, Americans united for their war efforts yet remained every bit as racist against African-Americans whose participation had been exemplary in both wars. People have always supported the communities they identify with in times of crisis and in doing so they have also supported opposition to the communities they don't identify with. People sharing feelings of concern for the well-being of others are also accompanied with shared feelings of apathy and even hate for others. This is why love can never prevail; because the hatred in humanity's hearts is just as important to people as their love if not more.

So, you don't believe that people are capable of transformation, when tranformation really is our only hope.

I understand the issue is difficult, more so than some might believe, because it requires changing what is most fundamental in us as humans, i.e. our core natures, but impossible?

I've lived long enough to see much change in people's willingness to accept others. It is an ongoing process, and it is moving in the right direction. I also believe it is possible for people to see that hatred and fear have themselves become the greatest thing for us to fear and hate, the greatest threat to our survival.

It is this possibility for us to recognize that the old ways are leading us to distruction that gives me hope for a general spiritual transformation. . . Many have already walked that road.

To speak of supposed beliefs of mine that you know nothing of is irrelevant. To single out one thing like "transformation" as being "our only hope" is both limiting and self-defeating. Believe what you like and think what you like about what is "overwealmingly pessimistic" but people who can't face the darkness will never find the light.

Do you really love everyone? lucky you! I find there are a lot of people I could never love. What I hope is that our love of Truth and Justice will surpass our inevitable antipathy to those we cannot love, and that as more and more of us set that example we can create a world in which it is more possible to love - even perhaps, eventually, to love those we cannot love.

I am not lucky, it is a choice. Who do you not Love? Lepers? Child molesters? Ignorant republicans? There are people that i do not like and find disgusting or obnoxious, but I am no better than they. Don't judge anyone, choose to Love them unconditionally.

My spiritual journey has lead me to strive for Love and to not judge others. I struggle daily with one thing or another anyway. Mistakes repeatedly overwhelm me and sometimes I become spiritually weak. Humility was a virtue that I sought, and achieved, but then I became proud of my humility lol.

As a living, breathing human being, I am actually being generous with that tie. Because, while running the risk of sounding cynical, love will not buy you the necessities to survive. you cannot invest love to better an enterprise. Love will not solve the national debt, or feed the hungry, or heal the sick. But, with money, acts of love can be manifested; a wedding ring, a bouquet of flowers, Or donations to internation aid groups to feed the hungry in Africa, to aid the victims of Sandy, etc.

Even though your examples are exactly why I can't come to a conclusion, I certainly believe Love can be manifested without money. If Love trumped money, money would be used to feed the hungry or heal the sick, or other acts of Love, and not plundered for groups or individuals.

You'd be surprised at how many people couldn't give a rat's ass about what the "world's" reality is. If you "love" money, then you give money power in your life. It isn't the money that has power. It's the emotion we give to it.

Love and money are not opposite ends of a spectrum. They are two different things that may or may not be found in the same place at the same time.

The emotion we give to money may have significance, but I assume you use money to buy food, etc. I care about reality whether someone else give's a rat's ass or not. How can you defend an argument that money is not powerful?

Love and money may not be opposite ends of a spectrum, and they are truly different things.

Money is a tool. A rate of exchange. A means to an end. Someone can be very rich and wield no influence or power if they choose not to. People might view them as "powerful", but that means that onlookers are assigning power TO someone because they have money.

I think it's wrong to attempt to describe humanity, or ascribe to humanity, the idea that all humans think or feel the same way, about love OR money or anything else. Money is prominent because it purchases the things that allow us to live-food, water, heat, clothing, etc. We NEED money because we NEED those things. Survival is a powerful drive. Money makes survival possible, but it is the survival that motivates-not the money.

When we have loved ones that need our care, having MORE money becomes a necessity because we LOVE them and we want them to survive. Love can easily drive one's desire for money because of the things we can obtain with money. That doesn't mean that we love money more, it means we NEED more of it. The NEED to provide for those we love is POWERful. That need drives us, not the idea that the money we need makes us powerful.

You cannot look at humanity from just your own point of view and evaluate everyone else fairly. You cannot say that only certain behaviors are "loving" because there are a myriad of ways that people express love, and just because you don't express it in certain ways, does not mean that others do not. You cannot evaluate how much love someone else has unless that person is identical to yourself.

Your question is complex because it's like asking 'What is more powerful in the human body-food or oxygen?" "What is more powerful-our lungs or our hearts?" They both have power in their own rights and each fulfills a purpose that the other cannot or does not. And SURVIVAL requires both.

We are all the same as in humans, of equal value and for the most part, physical sameness. But we are NOT all the same in what we crave, what we love, what we believe in, what we want or dream about or accomplish. We're all unique within the group of "sameness" we call humanity.

Just because you feel you NEED or DESERVE certain things does not mean that everyone else needs or deserves those same things. Just because you think a certain concept or principle should be universal or required, doesn't mean everyone else agrees. And YOU don't get to determine what motivates them to disagree or agree. You can't read minds or hearts. No one can. And to condemn or applaud the actions of another human being based on ONLY assumptions about what motivates them is wrong. It's not loving. It's not productive. And it's more about how "powerful" you think you are than anything else.