For Those Who Think Game Is Manipulation

Maxim #1: Game is learned charisma, streamlined seduction. Game is as sincere as its practitioner’s intent.

Game is the honest presentation of an idea, a thought, a suggestion in a way that makes it likely to be believed by the object of desire. If game is manipulation, or cheating, then so is all art, for which the object of desire is the viewer’s or listener’s engagement with its message. Do you really believe art is cheating?

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I seem to recall that Socrates and Aristotle had a little to say on the subject of… rhetoric, but to those who say I am merely Sophistic, I say it is only right that I put my best case in the best way.

Game is male version of make up, but not temporary. Waking up to a girl and finding her tits aren’t as big as they were last night is just as bad as girl waking up only to find you’re not a doctor with a house on the beach.

Picasso supposedly called art a lie that makes us realize the truth. Not lie as in misleading deliberately, I suspect, but lie as in fleshing out a hypothetical to try to get somewhere in understanding that I’ve never been before. When I game a woman I’m testing a hunch about her, and me, in reality to see if it works out, if it doesn’t then the important thing is to abandon it, don’t enshrine it and protect it. And there’s nothing really wrong with that. It’s like Dostoevsky’s idea of lying your way to the truth.

[…] What if the seduction is sincere? Maxim #1: Game is learned charisma, streamlined seduction. Game is as sincere as its practitioner’s intent. Game is the honest presentation of an idea, a thought, a suggestion in a way that makes it likely to be believed by the object of desire. If game is manipulation, or cheating, then so is all art, for which the object of desire is the viewer’s or listener’s engagement with its message. Do you really believe art is cheating? Filed under: Game, Inner Beauty, Maxims, Ugly Truths Source: Chateau Heartiste […]

Women being attracted to their rapists and marrying them is as old as time itself. Women are adapted to this. When men feel fear, their choice is fight-or-flight. When women do, their choice biologically becomes flight-or-fuck—they actually get very turned on from fear. This is why teenage girls like scary movies—it’s a way to feel their new sexual pleasure without the worries of sex.

Remember that alpha trumps all. If the rapist post sex acts beta-weak (as most rapists do, since they rape out of pent-up sexual frustration, being denied sex because they are betas), the woman is likely to scream rape. However, if he acts alpha, she’ll fall in line and love him.

Fictional examples about. Ask a woman if she’d like to be “carried off” like Rhett Butler did to Scarlett O’Hara in Gone with the Wind where he rapes her in angry frustration at her bitchin.’ The next scene shows a smiling and very satisfied O’Hara lying in bed, oozing orgasm after her rape, and devoted to Rhett for the moment.

Almost every women would say “Yes, please!” unless taught not to by their feminazi overlords.

What, did your ead this in a book? Are you saying that just because it confirms your preconceived, learned beliefs, or are you expressing knowledge you gained from personal experience? The question answers itself.

Woman want to be seduced. Some women are seduced by being physically dominated, and I am not denying that. But to go from that premise to “rape is justified because women like it” or whatever your point was, is too far a leap and it’s not a healthy attitude.

girls who have rape fantasies want the fantasy to stay a fantasy. maybe a little role play, yes.

but no girl wants a stranger holding a knife to her throat as he beats and rapes her.

[heartiste: so certain r u? fantasies are idealizations of real desires. this feminist assertion that fantasies are “only fantasies, and not what women really want” is belied by the fact that women never have sexual fantasies about beta males doting on them like lovesick puppies. women don’t really want that in real life, and their lack of fantasies about cloying beta males reflect the shape of their real desires.]

Heartiste,
you are partially right. In a rape fantasy, the woman wants a SPECIFIC man to have sex with her in a SPECIFIC way. But if the rape doesn’t work out JUST AS she imagined it (and with guarantee of survival), then fantasy is not fulfilled and it’s an uncontrollable nightmare where you can die. Reality has all these unintended consequences which makes lots of fantasies unfulfillable, or only partially fulfillable.

If you’re considering basing your “seduction” strategy on forcible rape, for your own sake, you may want to consider this: Some women respond to rape attempts with a double-tap to the center of mass and a follow-up between the running lights. Last I heard, the vital organs of alphas and betas are located in the same place.

RappaccinisDaughter
If you’re considering basing your “seduction” strategy on forcible rape, for your own sake, you may want to consider this: Some women respond to rape attempts with a double-tap to the center of mass and a follow-up between the running lights.
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Don’t forget to ALWAYS put one in the baseboard (after the others)

It makes the investigators job a lot easier when you tell them “I fired a warning shot but he just kept coming…”

See this is the danger, once the fetters of conventional feminist-defined behavior models are removed, it’s easy to “go dark” and forget moral considerations completely. I don’t think this is a good thing. Just because you reject conventional morality does not mean you can completely abandon the idea of morality and pursue your goals without regard to the pursuit’s effects on others. It’s not good for you or for them.

“And the possibility for the girl to hamster-rationalize it as consensual if you handle buyer’s remorse well.”

lol don’t get me started on that one. Let’s just say that when you remove the moral/ethical emotions involved and look at it PURELY from a completely logical perspective, you can change “possibility” into “ability” in your sentence.

You can do some pretty scary things with game…that’s just scratching the surface.

That’s a category of stuff we don’t encourage though, ideally we try to instill the “leave them better than you found them” mindset into PUAs. It’s like a Karate instructor who knows his students could use their training to bully kids at school. It doesn’t mean the training is inherently bad/evil, it just means that he should help the kid develop a code of ethics for using his skills in a good way.

But the guys who’ve spent years actively out in the field have seen some shit now and then that would make blue-pill people wretch up their lunch.

Met a girl at a concert a few weeks ago and did better with my texting and tried to establish a sexual frame.

She went cold on me last night which sucks but I’m proud of myself for getting as far as I did. If you got the time I’d like to hear where I fucked up:

Met her at a concert, started qualifying her, doing kino, went in for a kiss and was rebuffed. I got needy towards the end of the night and tried to get her and her friend to logically come to my apartment instead of busting their chops and teasing them. Overall I think I did pretty good at the concert (grabbing her by the hand and leading her thru the crowd, tending to her friend, doing ass grabbing and hand squeezing)

Texted her that night saying “Hey it’s IG, you got my number now”
She texted back the next day.

The past couple weeks the texts would be in the span of two hours or the next day. I tried to keep it flirty.. Example: She would ask me what my sign was and I would say “Aqaurius, but if you’re gemini then we can’t get married.”
She said “No I’m a taurus, we’re crazy and fun but I guess you haven’t seen that side of me yet ;)”

I would insert emoticons to match her level of doing so. She wrote a lot lengthier texts than I did. I read Decibels Texting Game pdf and tried to use that but since I’m not advanced yet I think it was a watered down version.

I texted her Sunday to see how she made out thru the storm.
She responded back with something like “Hey IG 😉 everything is getting better day by day…it’s so sad what happened at Rockaway 😦 Look we should talk sometime on the phone, you know, like normal people lol 😉 My movie is about to start.”

I was about to start a movie of my own with this one girl I’m seeing so I shot back a few hours later with “Ok cool. Enjoy the movie and talk to you soon”

I didn’t want to announce a set time of when I’d call. I thought her suggestion of talking over the phone was beta-bait but fuck I still went and called announced last night.

She didn’t pick up. I didn’t leave a voicemail.

I sent a text shortly after like “Hey xx, playing hard to get 😉 I’m going to the gym now but let’s talk like normal people when I get back”

No response and not surprised.

I feel like I should have sent a feeler to gauge where she was at emotionally mid-day yesterday and escalated from there and let it be known when I’d call so by the time I did call, she’d be “ready”.

Again, I’m still learning this aspect of it all and I may have fucked it before the call. But based on experience it seemed like she was way more into me texting-wise. If you know where I fucked up or the various places I did I’d appreciate it.

“She said “No I’m a taurus, we’re crazy and fun but I guess you haven’t seen that side of me yet 😉 ””

You’re hella solid at this point (despite whatever mistakes you made that first night (good that you recognize the logical venue change issues etc.)).

““Hey IG 😉 everything is getting better day by day…it’s so sad what happened at Rockaway 😦 Look we should talk sometime on the phone, you know, like normal people lol 😉 My movie is about to start.””

1) This is her letting you know the window is open. It’s not a shit-test, it’s her revealing her “blueprint”. It’s like, she’s letting you know “this is the thing that’s preventing this from going further, I need you to take care of this.” If she was like “how come you never phone me?”, that’s more of a shit-test, but this is her saying like “hey, it’s weird that we haven’t talked on the phone”

2) This is a really unusual thing to hear in 2012, a LOT of people txt instead of calling. Maybe she just has a think about liking to talk on the phone or needing to hear your voice for comfort blah blah blah who the fuck knows lol

BUT, if I had to diagnose it just based on that, my guess would be that she’s basically tired of having a “txt buddy” and she’s trying to get you to escalate things to you guys fucking. She can’t say “you should bone me now” but to a girl “talking on the phone” is one step closer to having sex than txting, so it’s not necessarily that she needs to talk on the phone, it’s probably more that she wants this shit to go further.

You KNOW she likes you (“grabbing her by the hand and leading her thru the crowd” and “doing ass grabbing and hand squeezing” and she’s still txting you flirty shit like up above? That’s on, sir!), so for you to not be pushing for the meet-up is frustrating to her. In her mind it’s like “fuck, dude, just GET IT already!!” It also tells her that you’re not super sure of yourself and that you’re not assuming attraction (which ultimately signals that you aren’t used to girls wanting you, etc. etc. big spiral of shit from there)

(Note that you might’ve been pushing for a meet-up and just not mentioned that in your Field Report, so if that’s the case post some of those txts and I’ll try to help narrow down the issue, I’m just going with the info here)

Here’s a common problem underlying your txting, just going by these txts:

““Ok cool. Enjoy the movie and talk to you soon””

You’re not leading here. “Talk to you soon” is like, somehow the universe will just happen to make you guys talk again. VS “Call me tomorrow” or “Busy tonight but I’ll call you tomorrow.” where there’s a definite “plan” in action there, whether it’s you calling her or her calling you, a decision has been made and you’re leading the interaction toward a goal.

““Hey xx, playing hard to get 😉 I’m going to the gym now but let’s talk like normal people when I get back””

Same thing here. You’re saying “let’s talk when I get back” but you’re not leading her with a plan of action. This is again like “the universe will make it happen”. It’s like you’re not willing to take the lead and create the action plan, it’s more like you’re expecting her to be like “ok I’ll call you tomorrow!” which she generally won’t do because she’s not swooning over you like crazy yet.

Basically she’s trying to say “hey, take the reins here! Let’s do this thing!” and you’re like “ya, let’s do this thing! Okay you take the reins!” and so the reins are just sitting there waiting for someone to take them lol

For me, this is the sort of vibe I’d be responding with if I got her same txts:

““No I’m a taurus, we’re crazy and fun but I guess you haven’t seen that side of me yet 😉 ”” (this is where you’re super solid, she’s flirted with you in person, she’s flirting with you now, what more do you need? Get in there!)

“Then I guess you’ll have to show me on Friday. 8pm work for you?”

Even if she turns me down, the point is that she knows I’m ultimately trying to lead the interaction to sex. If she’s not interested at all, she can bail, but if she turns me down but keeps responding, she just needs more comfort/teasing/etc. before she’ll meet up again.

“Look we should talk sometime on the phone, you know, like normal people lol 😉 My movie is about to start.””

“lol if we talk on the phone, we both know I’m just going to end up whispering dirty things in your ear. Enjoy your movie, I’ll call you tomorrow.”

or

“lol fuck the phone, let’s just hang out in person. Friday 8pm work for you?”

You’ve already met so there isn’t really any reason for her to be worried about meeting up with you again. Like an online chick might need to talk to you on the phone before she meets up, just to hear your voice etc. first. But this chick has already hung out with you, you could PROBABLY skip the phone call part because like I say, her suggesting the phone is likely just her saying “please escalate” because she can’t say “please fuck my brains out” lol

She might end up txting you tomorrow and you might be fine, who knows, but in general I’d say pay attention to this vibe when you’re txting. Ask yourself “Where am I going with this? Is this leading anywhere?” Like literally the main reason to have a txt/number/e-mail/etc. is to arrange your next meet-up, not just have a new txting buddy.

—

Now on a separate subject:

“I feel like I should have sent a feeler to gauge where she was at emotionally mid-day yesterday and escalated from there and let it be known when I’d call so by the time I did call, she’d be “ready”.”

Also a good call. Relevant part at 8:05 in this video, where he talks about how she won’t answer the phone until you get her in a mood where she will:

I’m not saying you should txt this one “such a slut” lol But you’re on the right track where you should’ve got her in state and THEN called. Who knows maybe she just had a shitty day at work but the moment you decided to call she was in a shitty state so she’s like “ugh I don’t want to talk to anyone right now” and you just got caught in that crossfire.

You’ll never know, unfortunately lol

All in all good stuff, you’re spotting most of your own mistakes. Doesn’t matter if you lost her, at least you learned from it. Don’t delete her number, if she doesn’t txt at all, shoot her a txt in a couple weeks and try again and if she still doesn’t respond, shoot her a txt in a couple months. You can sometimes re-kindle dead numbers after some downtime.

I did invite her out shortly after the last concert for another one that came up this past weekend. She said she was busy but she would def like to chill with me. I was planning on inviting her out again coming up but didn’t want to do it too much as Decibel says it’s a DLV if you keep on doing it.

I also avoided texting her too frequently because yup I didn’t want to become a texting buddy. Shit I would wait anywhere between 2 to 24 hours to respond sometimes and didn’t give a reason why. She would try to do the same but would send a few of them before 9am which made it seem like to me that she was thinking about doing it a lot. You can kinda tell when girls are purposefully waiting to send a text as a way of maintaining hand.

Oh, what made it more complicated was that she lives out in an area affected by Sandy and was without power a majority of the time so I didn’t want to escalate into a text convo and have her not respond due to lack of power/battery and thus lose momentum. So therefore I just tried to keep the fire stoked with flirty openers and shitspread out over the past couple weeks.

I think I did well here and I appreciate the words of encouragement. Once I realized that it’s practice and I’m bound to fuck up it makes the letdowns easier because time and time again I forget about whatever girl after I go out more and meet/game new ones.

The fucked up/funny thing is that back in August I was in a similar position. Met a girl at a similar concert that I really vibed with but like you said I wasn’t used to the fact that a girl that cute could possibly be into me so I didn’t physically escalate and it almost got to the point of “Surprise! I have a penis” game. Got that girls number but was shit over text. She faded away on me.

This time around when I started to feel the connection with this girl I said no fucking way will I box myself in like that so I made sure to physically escalate, flirt via text, go for a kiss and made qualify herself to me. See man, the field does fix you, like you said. Had I not made those mistakes the first time and learned (and got burned) from it, I would have made them again. All in all it gets better, just frustrating that I still didn’t get further because I lacked leadership in the last text messages.

Finally, thanks again. I’ll be sure to keep you updated if she gets back to me but yes I did delete her number two nights ago when she didn’t return the text. I have a compilation of yours, Ripps and The Shockers’ texting tips compiled into a PDF so once I figure out a way to let people download it anonymously I’ll share it here so people can have it and learn from it.

Probably legit and not a flake/shit-test, because she was flirty as fuck at that point and she made sure to let you know that she IS still interested. Again notice that she won’t say “I’m busy, but let’s hang out next Thursday at 8pm”, all she can say is “I’m busy, but we should definitely hang out”…That’s that same “I won’t take the reins, I need you to figure out that you’re supposed to take the reins to make this happen” thing I was talking about before.

“I was planning on inviting her out again coming up but didn’t want to do it too much as Decibel says it’s a DLV if you keep on doing it.”

This comes down to value. If you’re high value, you can break rules without DLV’ing. Imagine if she had to flake on Brad Pitt and he called the next day to try to set something else up. Or even called every day for a week straight. She wouldn’t be like “eff that Brad, you’re a loser” because he has such high value to her. But, if a guy she’s on the fence about or isn’t really into does the same thing, it’s an express train into DLV land for him.

Think of it like this: Imagine Megan Fox (or whoever your celeb crush is) is txting you daily to hang out. You’re not going to be like “ugh she’s so annoying and needy and desperate, quit txting me Megan Fox!” because she has such high value to you. But then imagine a plain Jane average girl you feel “meh…” about who if she made it easy and you were in a dry spell you’d bang but you really don’t care about going out of your way to get her…imagine she does the same thing as Megan Fox did, txting you daily to hang out. You’re going to be like “fuck, this girl is annoying and needy.” and ditch her.

So you want to figure out what your value is to her. I’d say you probably could’ve pushed for a meet-up again because she seemed to be into you enough that you were closer to Brad Pitt than an annoying random. But I mean, that doesn’t help anything now haha just something to keep in mind for the future.

Note that this is your value TO HER (ie – her perception of your value), not your inherent value. If you’re a badass mofo but you had an off day and the impression you left on her was just fucking awful, you should know “okay I have some work to do on this, shit”. Or if you’re a lame-ass but for whatever reason like, a lion attacked and slipped and knocked itself out on your fist and all the girls around you get lady-boners for your awesomeness, know that to them you’re super high value…but then if a new girl walks into the room and didn’t witness the event and hasn’t talked to any of them yet, to HER you’re not as high value as you are to the other girls.

Don’t STRESS the value thing, like “ohhh nooo, I’m not high value enough, wahhh I’m not going to even try!!” Just be AWARE of it and tweak your game based on it.

This is also why basing your self-esteem on how girls react when you approach is a bad habit to develop…if you’re an awesome guy but you just don’t know how to present that well yet because you’re a newbie to game, well, you’re still that awesome guy, it’s just that TO HER, you haven’t presented that well, so your value ends up being low and she rejects you. Whereas if you were still the EXACT same guy, BUT you presented yourself better with solid game, she’d be all over you. So her reaction should really be irrellevant except as an indicator of whether you need to tighten your game up or look at sticking points you have.

“I also avoided texting her too frequently because yup I didn’t want to become a texting buddy.”

I think there’s a misconception in the community about “alpha txting”. I txt a LOT, like, all day long, daily, and I send paragraph long txts, multiple txts in a row, etc.

It’s not so much the frequency of your txting or the length of your txts that puts you in the “texting buddy” zone, it’s whether those txts are flirting or talking about puppy dogs and ice cream, and whether those txts are pushing toward a goal (aka a meet-up, aka fucking) or if they’re just wishy-washy floating in the breeze conversation.

Think of it more like: Am I expressing my intent? If you’re not, that’s how you get friend zoned. Expressing your intent makes it so she CAN’T categorize you as just a harmless friend. It’s that old PUA saying of “she should always feel that when she’s interacting with you she’s in imminent danger of being fucked” lol

So if she txts “how was your day?” and you wait 24hrs and txt back “not bad. u?”, that’s going to fuck you over compared to instantly replying “boring as fuck, but my night is going to be better ’cause I’m picking you up at 7 for dinner. Wear that red dress you wore when we met, that was killer.” Again even if she rejects the offer, you’ve shown that you’re not a friend zone guy, you’re not her texting buddy, you’re a guy that if she continues to interact with you, you will fuck her (so technically her still interacting with you after rejecting you IS the IOI that she still wants you to fuck her lol, but that’s another concept entirely).

“Oh, what made it more complicated was that she lives out in an area affected by Sandy”

Hard to account for a natural disaster like that lol I mean for all you knew her parents died in Sandy or something. Or maybe she was bored as fuck all day dying for someone to txt her so she had something to take her mind off it. It’s not really something you can be like “shit, the solid play would’ve been to do such and such” so I wouldn’t beat yourself up about it. Your plan was as good an attempt as any would have been in that situ!

“Once I realized that it’s practice and I’m bound to fuck up it makes the letdowns easier because time and time again I forget about whatever girl after I go out more and meet/game new ones.”

It’s like jogging. The more you do it, the further along you get each time before you burn out. Over time you effortlessly handle the runs that gave you trouble, but you’ll still burn out, it’s just further down the road. Don’t attach too much to it. Remember, you can’t control how people will react to you or how girls will respond to you…all you can control is whether you took “Right Action” or not.

“I wasn’t used to the fact that a girl that cute could possibly be into me so I didn’t physically escalate and it almost got to the point of “Surprise! I have a penis” game.”

lol don’t stress it, we were ALL there at one point. And even guys good at game fuck that up. Brad gives a couple little funny stories about Entitlement and assuming value here:

“See man, the field does fix you, like you said. Had I not made those mistakes the first time and learned (and got burned) from it, I would have made them again.”

lol ya, that’s a big part of why we stress going out. It’s like, I can TELL you “dude, do such and such” and you can KNOW logically “I should do such and such” but you’ll go out in the field and in the situ where you should do “such and such” you’ll blank or just not think of it or forget about it and get COMPLETELY FUCKED OVER and lose some hot chick and end up going home to spank it solo before you cry yourself to sleep. But the NEXT time you’re in that situ, your brain will go “HEY, remember what happened last time? Don’t let that shit happen again, fucker!!” and you’ll remember to do “such and such”:

“just frustrating that I still didn’t get further because I lacked leadership in the last text messages.”

Definitely sucks. But the next girl you txt? You’re gonna’ lead like a motherfucker. 🙂

“Finally, thanks again. I’ll be sure to keep you updated if she gets back to me”

No prob, hope she does. Lookin’ forward to the PDF, I’d never heard of Decibel’s txt stuff but I Googled it and gave it a quick glance and it looks solid. Going to give it a full read later.

Game is often cynical and manipulative, but like you said that’s the fault of the practitioner. At it’s best game is a masculine model for behavior, a realization of the world’s possibilities, and a push towards positive self-image which encourages bold behavior, which in turn reinforces the positive self-image.

I can’t say this site is without cynicism and manipulative advice, though.

Let me fix that for you:
Game practitioners are often cynical and manipulative. Especially the ones that want to learn a new “trick” to get a woman, instead of trying to get a more attractive attitude, personality and lifestyle.

I have always employed sincere game, meaning that I only game women that I’m honestly interested in. There are 5s and 6s I could fool into sleeping with me, but I’d personally rather go home and whack than have to spend the time and effort with the less than beautiful gal. The awkwardness, the poor night’s sleep, the careful letdown…I hate it. If I can’t see myself hitting it a significant number of times, I move on.

Being mindful of one’s interactions with a woman whom one wishes to be intimate with is not the least bit deceitful, coercive or insincere. Does someone have to blurt out everything that is on their mind at any given time to be honest and sincere? Of course not. The principles of game can be used for deceitful purposes, but that isn’t necessarily the case. Game is the manipulation of one’s social environment and interactions.

The term manipulation often carries with it a negative connotation, but when applied in its neutral sense, manipulation is what sets humans apart from unconscious or unaware animals. It isn’t negative. When I carefully choose my words to comfort a friend going through a difficult time, I am engaged in manipulation. This mindfulness is only a negative when it contains deceit, or aims to influence someone to do something that they otherwise wouldn’t want to do.

Please don’t fall of the self aggrandizing cliff just because you happen to get laid at an above average rate.

Isolation, trying to get the target tipsy/drunk, putting on a facade of power despite knowing the whole cardhouse will come falling down under any reasonable challenge, is very different from writing a song or painting a painting.

Cue songwriting, game is more related to song marketing, as in, say, payola: Creating the illusion of popularity, since statistically that increases the odds of actual popularity.

Art that is any good is carefully constructed, tailored to its audience and environment, and is indeed pretty fragile as all the deconstructionists douches will tell you. Yes, you are a deconstructionist douche, go buy a beret.

Isolation, trying to get the target tipsy/drunk, putting on a facade of power despite knowing the whole cardhouse will come falling down under any reasonable challenge

Isolation – you mean helping a woman to escape social judgement and her deep-seated fears that force her to live her life as a facade (to earn the approval of the people around her), and fostering a situation where she can truly relax and be herself and act on her normally stifled desires?

Tipsy/drunk – PUAs don’t try to get women drunk. Amateurs with shitty game and Naturals do. In fact a lot of us don’t like drunk chicks because they don’t get all our wordplay and humor and, quite frankly, they can just be annoying. On top of that a lot of us seduce women during the day and in environments that don’t involve alcohol. It’s also very common that a girl will ask for a drink literally just so she can have one sip and justify in her mind that “oh I’m not a slut, I was drunk and it just happened”. I used to get annoyed with girls who did that because it was a waste of my alcohol lol

Facade of power – over time the facade becomes real. Don’t forget the “make it” part of “fake it till you make it”. We train to be high value socially powerful men, there’s no facade once you achieve that.

Would you like to try again, or are you happy rolling around in your ignorance like a pig in shit?

lol, every single YaReally post contains more wisdom than all your senile ramblings combined. And for someone with such obvious disdain for pick-up artistry you spend an awful amount of time on a game blog. Sup with that bro?

You expose yourself, novice. Only someone with no observation skills and/or little “field” experience would regard YaReally’s meanderings as particularly illuminating. He is game basics 101. He (and apparently you) regard simple observations and PUA fundamentals as deep insights, the deep insights that form a risible philosophy neither of you can defend.

You’re talking down there. I’m talking up here. We have little to say to each other. Get it?

I have no disdain for pick up. On the other hand, I don’t think street magic is all that impressive or worth devoting one’s energy to mastering, particularly because there isn’t much to master. In fact I am happy there is a YaReally around to repeatedly beat fellows like you over the head with the experiential insight some of us encountered in high school and college, till you get it. There’s a lot of catching up for you to do. The more you regard your remedial learning as access to secret, world-stopping “wisdom,” the better.

Of course ‘game’ is manipulation, just like advertising is manipulation, team-building exercises are manipulation, singing the national anthem is manipulation, leadership is manipulation.
Game boils down to getting people to do what you want them to do. The only difference between this and politics is that one uses the implicit threat of force and one does not.
I’ll let the readers figure out which.

‘Game’ is something that gives guys who normally wouldn’t have the balls and/or social skills to approach attractive women – or any women, for that matter – the confidence to do so. They will still get shot down 99.9999% of the time or lose out to the 6’5, 22-year old Brad Pitt look-alike with the Ferrari and private jet most if not all women want ( and who neither has nor needs ‘game’), but at least they get to go home knowing they tried.

This topic came up in conversation with a young lady a couple of nights ago. Socialization has already buried what the sexes truly want from each other under layers of pretense and arbitrary rules. Game is recognizing that these layers exist, and acting accordingly. It’s only manipulation in the sense that you would manipulate a car down the road instead of letting it roll through a guardrail and into a canal.

Not a very logical comparison, although I follow your thought process. I would liken Game more to Sales, as you’re basically displaying the value of something (yourself) to your potential customer (some chick). Once the value exceeds the cost (in her eyes), she buys. But yea, it’s a moot point. If we want to point fingers at game then we might as well point fingers at makeup, which is a much worse cover-up (at least game has some nuggets of truth; makeup is all lies).

If game is manipulation, or cheating, then so is all art, for which the object of desire is the viewer’s or listener’s engagement with its message. Do you really believe art is cheating?

Art is not manipulation. It is an allegorical and idealized expression of truth through another medium. Game is truth, game is art. It is emphatically not a science. The more you attempt to quantify it, the more you kill it.

But the white man’s natural geek quotient attempts to quantify everything in his ambition to control everything: e.g., Nate Silver, sabermetrics, and Long Term Capital Management. It is a peculiarly Caucasian disease, with strains of it affecting orientals. (Which is why white men/orientals find it hard to establish a physical rhythm that the more savage races have no problem acquiring — emphasis on minutiae precludes the relaxation that allows “flow.”)

You cannot teach great artistry. You can raise a horde of artisans, sure. You can encourage the already extant talents of otherwise unguided naturals, yes. But you cannot make a silk alpha out of an omega’s ear. To the extent that the game community ignores this truth, they are holding themselves and everyone back, talented or untalented. PUA’s hyperfocus on technique as salvation rather than taking a hard look at essence and the obstacles to its natural expression.

Matt you are “casting pearls to swine”, but I have to admitt between you and Ya Really, there is a possibility of middle ground. Meaning use Game to satisfy the women in your lives, and cultivate charisma to achieve worthwhile endeavors that have a further reach than chasing ass. God Bless you.

Nobody thinks that game is manipulation. As a woman, I would never admit that I am stupid enough to be manipulated by a man (because I’m not). Similarly, would you admit that a woman manipulated you into falling in love with her because she was wearing stylish clothes and make-up?