For half that amount you could hire 6 full time development officer posts across the Salford -Manchester area with the goal say of establishing half a dozen NCL level clubs inside ten years. This is what I believe Wigan have got with around 2500 participants. I understand people like Kris Radlinski have a real hands on approach raising also the coaching standards at all levels through out their area.

I have already done a few posts whereby I suggest Koukash may explore a dual strategy involving making the game strong in Manchester and Salford through the schools and the amateur game, in which a team of development officers and patronage from Salford build a junior base not just inside the M60 but all around it and include places like Swinton Rochdale and Oldham.

Of course if all this were to be planned and executed it may take many years before it would translate to a supply of quality players and a deeper interest in RL in general around the conurbation translating to more bums on seats in Barton.

Well I remember stardate c. 2000? when Gary Hetherington said Leeds would "produce their own players" and appointed Dean Bell to do this, and within a year Wigan decided to do the same and took Bell to do it.

The two clubs now preside over areas where the game has a true strength, rather than a dozen antipodeans propping up first team year on year until the money runs out.

Superleague needs clubs to follow this lead, wether Mr. Koukash follows it we MUST wait and see for heknows he won't get too much interest at Junior level unless he has the senior team competing with the other top clubs so I do not assume that his current "antics" which are wholly understandable, are not the full extent of his intended policies for making Salford a top club.

I have already done a few posts whereby I suggest Koukash may explore a dual strategy involving making the game strong in Manchester and Salford through the schools and the amateur game, in which a team of development officers and patronage from Salford build a junior base not just inside the M60 but all around it and include places like Swinton Rochdale and Oldham.

Of course if all this were to be planned and executed it may take many years before it would translate to a supply of quality players and a deeper interest in RL in general around the conurbation translating to more bums on seats in Barton.

Well I remember stardate c. 2000? when Gary Hetherington said Leeds would "produce their own players" and appointed Dean Bell to do this, and within a year Wigan decided to do the same and took Bell to do it.

The two clubs now preside over areas where the game has a true strength, rather than a dozen antipodeans propping up first team year on year until the money runs out.

Superleague needs clubs to follow this lead, wether Mr. Koukash follows it we MUST wait and see for heknows he won't get too much interest at Junior level unless he has the senior team competing with the other top clubs so I do not assume that his current "antics" which are wholly understandable, are not the full extent of his intended policies for making Salford a top club.

Is this post a wind-up, or do you genuinely suffer from some sort of split-personality?

This time last week you were shouting down people who were sensibly suggesting building a self-sufficient club, with good governance structures, a quality Chief Exec and a youth team, and telling them a model whereby a sugar daddy threw money about left, right and centre was the best model.

I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly.

If you want to debate the issue you refer to then explain it, and i'll give you an answer.

You ignored the argument last week - that Moran has actually built the Warrington up over a long period of time, with the expertise of Gatcliffe and others - and you always come back to the 'sugar daddy' argument eventually.

Actually I'd argue that your posting style, where threads culminate in you making 60-70% of posts, shows that is possible to shout people down over the internet.

I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly.

I worry that this guy is the rugby league equivalent of the venky's at blackburn. making a lot of noise, but has he actually started spending on realistic goals to genuinely help improve the club step-wise? maybe he has and i haven't noticed it...

Well, one thing he hasn't done (yet) is panic-buy a bunch of average NRL players. Which is a good sign. He's spoken of a total rebuilding of the club's off-field operations, which is something that will be less newsworthy than signing new players, and is also something that will take time. Let's wait and see whether he's the real deal or not.

Between the optimist & the pessimist
The difference is quite droll:
The optimist sees the doughnut,
The pessimist sees the hole.

Well, one thing he hasn't done (yet) is panic-buy a bunch of average NRL players. Which is a good sign. He's spoken of a total rebuilding of the club's off-field operations, which is something that will be less newsworthy than signing new players, and is also something that will take time. Let's wait and see whether he's the real deal or not.

1. You ignored the argument last week - that Moran has actually built the Warrington up over a long period of time, with the expertise of Gatcliffe and others - and you always come back to the 'sugar daddy' argument eventually.

2. Actually I'd argue that your posting style, where threads culminate in you making 60-70% of posts, shows that is possible to shout people down over the internet.

1. No I argued that Koukash is a very intelligent and capable businessman man and my bet was he would not need and certainly not want Mr. Gatcliffe to tell him how best to run a club. Koukash sat and talked long and hard to the boss of the RFL before he came into the game.

If you bother to read the posts that I make I think it's logical that any rich owner should adopt a double strategy of trying to ensure he has a competetive SL team because that is what attracts the kids. that's what Wire have achieved with Mr. Moran bringing in big names and cups and the backroom staff developing the local junior scene who all want to play for wire one day.

In addition to this I posted that one strategy is best coming before the other. Therefore just because Koukash is trying to get a top first team together now, it's no evidence he won't try to build the game around the M60. I would however be dissapointed if all he did was sign big stars off the other clubs.

2. My "posting style" is my business. If I choose to reply at length to only selected threads that's my business.

If you choose to pop in and out of all the threads with silly comments and no real substance to the debate then that's your business.

If you try to have a personal argument with me then you will find that I'll have your posts on ignore, as that's the board rules, and the other guy whose trying to have a go should realise he's on ignore and always will be

I have already done a few posts whereby I suggest Koukash may explore a dual strategy involving making the game strong in Manchester and Salford through the schools and the amateur game, in which a team of development officers and patronage from Salford build a junior base not just inside the M60 but all around it and include places like Swinton Rochdale and Oldham.

Of course if all this were to be planned and executed it may take many years before it would translate to a supply of quality players and a deeper interest in RL in general around the conurbation translating to more bums on seats in Barton.

Well I remember stardate c. 2000? when Gary Hetherington said Leeds would "produce their own players" and appointed Dean Bell to do this, and within a year Wigan decided to do the same and took Bell to do it.

The two clubs now preside over areas where the game has a true strength, rather than a dozen antipodeans propping up first team year on year until the money runs out.

Superleague needs clubs to follow this lead, wether Mr. Koukash follows it we MUST wait and see for heknows he won't get too much interest at Junior level unless he has the senior team competing with the other top clubs so I do not assume that his current "antics" which are wholly understandable, are not the full extent of his intended policies for making Salford a top club.

It's always puzzled me how a big city like Manchester slap bang in the middle of the "heartlands" doesn't have any amateur/junior rugby league setup like you'd find in Leeds, hull, Bradford etc. I know there's a fairly new club just set up Manchester rl and a school team with a link with Salford st. Joesph's but there must be dozens of Jason robinsons, ellery hanleys, Sam tomkins etc in Hulme, moss side, longsight, Horton etc. the same goes with Liverpool, you've got 3 super league clubs in widnes, warrington and st helens all on the doorstep of the city of Liverpool and it's urban areas, huge potential in both cities.

However, Manchester is not slap bang in the middle of the "heartlands". In my experience and opinion, most of Manchester is "union" though all of it is dominated by soccer. I went to secondary school in Salford and we played union, and I reckon that even today, a count of schools in Manchester proper ( not a "greater Manchester that included Wigan and Oldham) "union" schools significantly outnumber "league" schools by a good margin.

However, Manchester is not slap bang in the middle of the "heartlands". In my experience and opinion, most of Manchester is "union" though all of it is dominated by soccer. I went to secondary school in Salford and we played union, and I reckon that even today, a count of schools in Manchester proper ( not a "greater Manchester that included Wigan and Oldham) "union" schools significantly outnumber "league" schools by a good margin.

I don't doubt it for a second that rugby union dominates the secondary schools in Manchester, just like it does in west Cumbria where I grew up when I went to school, but and I've no idea in the money and organization needed to setup a amateur side in Manchester, the likes of Salford city reds working in conjunction with Manchester city council, sport England and say BARLA could establish an amateur side in say Hulme or longsight along the lines of a kells or hensingham with various age groups, which would be a huge first step in developing rugby league in Manchester.

It's always puzzled me how a big city like Manchester slap bang in the middle of the "heartlands" doesn't have any amateur/junior rugby league setup like you'd find in Leeds, hull, Bradford etc.

So much is down to history and especially the tussle between Rugby League and Soccer or Union.

Manningham went over to soccer and there's little amateur RL on that north side of Bradford.

Leeds became successful even though they were "out of town" up in headingley. the development of north Leeds was as a middle class area and with that came Grammar schools, School RU and old boys clubs, so there's been little amateur RL development in north Leeds until these last few years.

In the same way that the manchester conrurbation has patches of RL in Salford, Swinton, Oldham etc so do Bradford and Leeds.

Hull however is a city with I think a full spread of RL across the board but i will leave the Hull lads to confirm or correct.

I know you know this but will just use a reply to you as a vehicle to suggest that if Koukash starts outbidding the top clubs for their players and strengthens Salford then all we will get is musical chairs and someone else will go into a decline.

If he has £500K a year to chuck away then better chucked at RL development across Salford/manchester.

I may be doing him a dis-service, he may be keen on building the club's strength long term, but then again he may simply want a winner now and that means stripping the best players off the other clubs.

At least Snape stripped them from Union

Some from Union - Watkins/Coulman/Fielding but Hesketh/Dixon/Gill/Charlton etc were RL. However there is some good material now available in RU & the Dr should look there. At Sale for instance Powell would be a good buy & surely we could get a Golf Buggy Co to sponsor him. Would also entice some Sale Fans to watch as well.

He's not broken any rules yet , and only been at the helm since the beginning of Feb.
He's doing a good job of keeping the profile of the Club up both at local level on BBC, on Sky & in the RL press. He's annoying a few of the old guard and fans of top 6 clubs irked by his brash approach
He's no afraid to speak his mind , but alot of what has been said must have come from Chalmers ,Lowe & Farish , especially about the disparity between English & NRL budgets.
some posters on here have already labelled him a liabilty & spendfrith? he's not spent anything yet.

As for Veivers I was a big fan of his through the last 18 months as he did a great job of acting the ' business as usual ' when pointedly it was anything but .
His sacking was cruel , but unfortunately he was the most pivotal decision maker in the club playing wise and there was no future squad building around him if ultimately he wasn't Koukash's man . His existing squad wasn't responding to him and and they have a bearing on his removal .

If anyone thing he's causing havoc now , they must be worried about what he will do in an actual close season ..

He's not broken any rules yet , and only been at the helm since the beginning of Feb.He's doing a good job of keeping the profile of the Club up both at local level on BBC, on Sky & in the RL press. He's annoying a few of the old guard and fans of top 6 clubs irked by his brash approachHe's no afraid to speak his mind , but alot of what has been said must have come from Chalmers ,Lowe & Farish , especially about the disparity between English & NRL budgets.some posters on here have already labelled him a liabilty & spendfrith? he's not spent anything yet.

As for Veivers I was a big fan of his through the last 18 months as he did a great job of acting the ' business as usual ' when pointedly it was anything but .His sacking was cruel , but unfortunately he was the most pivotal decision maker in the club playing wise and there was no future squad building around him if ultimately he wasn't Koukash's man . His existing squad wasn't responding to him and and they have a bearing on his removal .

If anyone thing he's causing havoc now , they must be worried about what he will do in an actual close season ..

He is certainly unorthodox in his approach to club ownership. At Wakefield, he left the comfort of the directors' box and walked round to join the Salford faithful on the freezing cold terraces. He was greeted with a chorus of "There's only one Marwan Koukash" and fans shaking his hand and patting his back. There was clear adulation. Justin Bieber, eat your heart out!

Some from Union - Watkins/Coulman/Fielding but Hesketh/Dixon/Gill/Charlton etc were RL. However there is some good material now available in RU & the Dr should look there. At Sale for instance Powell would be a good buy & surely we could get a Golf Buggy Co to sponsor him. Would also entice some Sale Fans to watch as well.

Always thought Andy Powell could have made a good go of RL. Very direct, hard runner, think Nobby was trying to get him to Crusaders.

He is certainly unorthodox in his approach to club ownership. At Wakefield, he left the comfort of the directors' box and walked round to join the Salford faithful on the freezing cold terraces. He was greeted with a chorus of "There's only one Marwan Koukash" and fans shaking his hand and patting his back. There was clear adulation. Justin Bieber, eat your heart out!

I read that he did that on Twitter and thought it was a great move.

I think he's doing all the right things but one coach - doofus at Widnes - is starting to get on my nerves with his bitching.

He is certainly unorthodox in his approach to club ownership. At Wakefield, he left the comfort of the directors' box and walked round to join the Salford faithful on the freezing cold terraces. He was greeted with a chorus of "There's only one Marwan Koukash" and fans shaking his hand and patting his back. There was clear adulation. Justin Bieber, eat your heart out!