I am henry "the mutant", engineer and inventor, in my way i found a costumer that owns a car dealer and wants to sell those musical horns that plays tunes when you beat the horn. The fact is that he only wants to change the actual FACTORY RELAY, and the is when i came in play:

change just the FACTORY RELAY HORN replacing it for NEW MUSICAL, means that i need a microcontroller with:

The classic "La Cucaracha" type car horn was several horns (5 for La Cucaracha), a compressor and valves or similar for individual horns. Still the same?

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I assume you have checked whether this is legal in the intended market(s) ... ?

Your requirement is not clear - you talk about "FACTORY RELAY" and "FACTORY RELAY HORN"

As Torby says, the frequency of the horn itself is fixed - it cannot be changed.

So you are going to have to replace the actual horn- the sound-producing device - not just the relay.

In fact, there is no reason to change the relay.

actually i can play inclusive "la cucaracha" with my car´s horn, the idea is not being hitting the horn so many times, just one. And yea, all the horns have a relay..... factory relay or something like that. is more than clear that i a taking about a relay that cames from factory or whatever.

Modern police cars etc have siren sounds that vary a lot. I suppose that means the system consists of a speaker (megaphone type) and some kind of synthesizer? Obtain one of those (legally!() and hack it?

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Obviously, the whole point of a car horn is exactly that it is loud - it needs to be heard at distance, above traffic noise, engine noise, road noise, the radio, and through the soundproofing of the passenger compartment!

Standard car horns are fixed-tone devices.

The tone is fixed by mechanical resonance, so the tone does not vary (significantly) with applied voltage - which is what you want with a car horn!

It's like a tuning fork - the tone does not change with how hard you hit it (within reason).

So you cannot use a standard car horn for this.

You have 2 choices:

Use a number of horns - one for each note
(like the air horns)

As Johan suggests, use some sort of rugged "speaker"
(which is what you see if you google for existing products on the market)

This thread is surely nonsense. You can't make a conventional car hor play a tune by messing with the relay. Full stop. Although I have subverted piezo buzzers(i.e devices with built in oscillators) into playing different "notes", that's using I/O pins and transistor drives. Relays are too slow.

This thread is surely nonsense. You can't make a conventional car hor play a tune by messing with the relay. Full stop.

+1

The horn mechanically cannot be pulsed to make notes very well either.

As noted in prior posts there is also the legal side of altering the horn as the very nature is to 'alert' others for whatever reason. The horn is designed to be annoying and IIRC the frequencies used are specific to over come environmental obstacles(air resistance, closed car interiors, noise reduction interiors, loud radios etc.) Altering one, and getting into an accident that could have been prevented with a properly functioning horn Blah Blah Blah.

As also noted there are already pre-made musical horn kits that are far better suited for this sort of thing.

Jim

If you want a career with a known path - become an undertaker. Dead people don't sue! - Kartman

looks that many of you need get to back to school, or simply buy a car and try to play with the horn. Illegal or not of of alterring the horn is not a a bussiness of an electronic forum, maybe theres a lawyer confused here, but I only was asking about hardware that resist around 200°C and you gays havent answer that.

Of course you can build hardware for automobile environment but you are going down the wrong route and need to think things through first. You could also get a very expensive engine and control system to do this https://www.bing.com/videos/sear...

I am henry "the mutant", engineer and inventor, in my way i found a costumer that owns a car dealer and wants to sell those musical horns that plays tunes when you beat the horn. The fact is that he only wants to change the actual FACTORY RELAY, and the is when i came in play:

First sentence.

THEN under your specs:

mutante wrote:

change just the FACTORY RELAY HORN replacing it for NEW MUSICAL, means that i need a microcontroller with: -Internal regulator (12Volt to 5Volts) -Soppport rougth enviroment: maybe 200°C and humidity -Easy Implementation with and 5 Amp-12Volts MOSFET or transistor -Relay cases

You mention the 200 degree requirement, along with replacing the the FACTORY RELAY HORN et al.

Lastly:

mutante wrote:

Anybody has an idea of what hardware i can use?

Sure sounds like you are looking for a complete kit.

And if you read the posts, you HAVE been given ideas on gear thats already out there to in fact make some of these sounds you are looking for, and at the same time, throwing caution into the wind about this little endeavour as well.

Jim

If you want a career with a known path - become an undertaker. Dead people don't sue! - Kartman

This will get you FINED in Australia unless it's an emergency and you don't want musical anything, just a blast to warn someone (ie someone crossing the road with headphones on), just like the manufacturer designed it. Even sounding the horn in anger can get you fined for road rage!

But if one is at school then these kind of horns could be appealing I guess.

looks that many of you need get to back to school, or simply buy a car and try to play with the horn. Illegal or not of of alterring the horn is not a a bussiness of an electronic forum, maybe theres a lawyer confused here, but I only was asking about hardware that resist around 200°C and you gays havent answer that. Thanks for nothing

We're all inclusive here, but referring to us as gays is stepping over the line. "alterring the horn is not a a bussiness of an electronic forum" if that is the case, why did you ask here??

As for hardware that resists 200C - well you might have a problem with silicon as it is not much good past 150C. I'd suggest not mounting the equipment near to the exhaust. Besides, you're the engineer and inventor - sounds like some invention is needed here. How about a clockwork mechanism that activates a relay. Job done. 200C - no problems. No emc worries.

And if you plan to use any connectors (even pin headers) then you should know that PBT material has melting point from 150°C to 200°C (depending on aditives) and it looses its mechanical properties with increased temperature.

My recommendation if you need this kind of device it would be best to place some siren speaker in the trunk and use circutry completely separated from the car (maybe only use power from 12V car battery). And leave original car functionality as is.

The horn is just about a useless appendage but it's required to be checked when the car is inspected. About the only use is to wake the driver ahead of you when he fails to see the light turn green.

Many years ago the horn button was big and at the center of the wheel. Now there is an air bag there and the horn buttons are on the spokes near the rim. In an emergency you probably don't have the time to find the horn button and you may be turning the wheel so the horn button is a moving target.

I've ridden in taxis in countries where a new car is a rarity. They somehow manage to keep the old cars running. A horn would be an outrageous luxury. If the driver was impatient with the car ahead, he would put his arm out the window and slam his hand against the side of the door. That's a more civilized way than blowing the horn anyway.

About 25 years ago, I build a novelty horn for my Vauxhall Carlton(just to set the period...).

It had a CMOS counter(CD4040 IIRC) for address generation, an EPROM, a DAC and a BTL amplifier chip driving a small horn speaker.

It also had a simple 7805 regulator for the "logic".

The whole thing was wired to the horn relay, instead of the conventional horn, and would have looped ad-infinitum if you'd have kept your hand on the horn.

The audio was a duck quacking, taken from a BBC sound effects compilation, with a sheep bleating at the end for good measure.

My theory was that I only ever used the horn if I saw someone I knew, and with a horn like that the hootee would immediately know who was hooting them. Also, my nephews thought I was the coolest dude on the planet(which happens to be true, as it turn out).

The whole thing was assembled on perf board fixed to a piece of wood, and mounted under the bonnet/hood with no protection against the elements whatsoever.

Despite all the stuff you read about cars being hostile environments for electronics, it worked perfectly for two or three years until I stupidly ran low on oil and seized the engine, and ended up dumping the car near Cambridge.

It was not, however, considered legal for the purposes of the MOT, which is our annual safety test, so I would have to reconnect the factory horn once a year.

Was it as LOUD as a conventional legal horn?
Could the horn speaker fit in the same space as the original?
.
If yes to both, it could possibly satisfy the OP.
If it could generate a conventional sound, it might even pass the MOT.
.
The electronics and PWM amplifier might fit in a relay-size space.
The horn speaker will be an additional expense.
.
I am guessing that you could never get "music" out of a conventional motor horn or even different sounds.
And any horn "speaker" will require much more power. i.e. will be less efficient.
.
You can perform your own experiments with a high power amplifier and original horn. Just to see what is practical.
Come back with your results i.e. power and decibel levels.
Then you might get sensible advice on the electronics and software.
.
David.

A "split second" is that time between the traffic light turning amber and the driver behind sounding his horn

Or, for countries which don't have The Proper Sequence for traffic lights:

A "split second" is that time between the traffic light turning green and the driver behind sounding his horn

It's not surprising that countries where people drive on the wrong side of the road, also screw up the traffic signal colors.

I read decades ago that someone in England figured out that signs with lower case letters could be read at a greater distance than when all upper case was used, because the ascenders and descenders gave the words a shape that upper case letters did not.

countries where people drive on the wrong side of the road, also screw up the traffic signal colors.

So you do!

I read decades ago that someone in England figured out that signs with lower case letters could be read at a greater distance than when all upper case was used, because the ascenders and descenders gave the words a shape that upper case letters did not.

"I read decades ago that someone in England figured out that signs with lower case letters could be read at a greater distance than when all upper case was used, because the ascenders and descenders gave the words a shape that upper case letters did not. "

That's interesting, and makes sense.

So I shall overlook your somewhat ridiculous implication that there could be a right or a wrong side of the road to drive on.

Just as soon as you get rid of all fuel-wasting four-way stops and replace with mini-roundabouts.

Regarding the actual subject of this thread. Did your analog loudspeaker produce the same decibels as a conventional horn?

I am sure that the OP's idea comes down to practicalities. e.g. power required. physical size of loudspeaker to handle the power.

Your experience would be very relevant. Everyone else can only speculate.

David.

No. There is a limit to the power one can get out of a 4 Ohm speaker using a bridge-tied-load amplifier running from 12V.

To get more volume I suppose one could build a higher voltage PSU, or use multiple horn speakers in parallel, but this was just a quick novelty project.

I doubt it would interest the OP at all, to be honest. The thread just jogged my memory, and I though it might be interesting, primarily because of the total lack of electrical or physical protection employed in an under-the-hood environment.

I don't believe we can help the OP, as it happens, as they want to make horn music by manipulating the relay, and I don't see how that's going to work.

Unless, of course, the proposed melody is "One note Samba".

And yes, I do understand that there is, in reality, more than one note in that song.

I understood that he wanted to have all solid-state electronics in a relay-size replacement.
So he might be able to produce a PWM drive to the horn. This might produce some sounds that are different to the physical resonance. e.g. like getting different notes out of a bugle by reaching harmonics.

I understood that he wanted to have all solid-state electronics in a relay-size replacement. So he might be able to produce a PWM drive to the horn. This might produce some sounds that are different to the physical resonance. e.g. like getting different notes out of a bugle by reaching harmonics.

I think you are right, just re-read the 1st post.

I suppose there is a chance of producing other tones(and I did allude to this in post #22), but it would be a bit hit and miss with a conventional car horn, which, unless things have changed dramatically over the past 50 years, are simple "vibrator" (stop that sniggering at the back there..) devices with a diaphragm(I said stop it!) attached. You would, I suspect, have to switch the power at a rate higher than the natural period of oscillation, so that the "points" never got a chance to open.

I find quite the opposite - the wailing sound is extremely difficult to position

I expect this is environment-dependent. In an urban setting with large, tall buildings, highly sound-reflecting facades, there is a great deal of multi-path sound through which the listener must localise the source. Different frequencies will result in different 'computed' source positions based on the listener's position w.r.t. additive and destructive interference of the various paths for that frequency. The rapid 'burp-chirp' component to the sirens in emergency vehicles where I live are perhaps an attempt to minimise that kind of 'phantom' localisation...? ... by rapidly (over a few ms) and repeatedly sweeping across a range of frequencies.

A wild guess.

Unless, of course, the proposed melody is "One note Samba".

And yes, I do understand that there is, in reality, more than one note in that song.

unless things have changed dramatically over the past 50 years, [car horns] are simple "vibrator" [..] devices with a diaphragm

They are, AFAIK. At least on newish Volvos..

John_A_Brown wrote:

natural period of oscillation

Snigger... ;-)

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here.

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]