It is only second to creating rhetorical questions to begin threads on discussion boards to pass judgement on others.

Yeah then then that would be third to speculating incorrectly as to what someone's motive was as to why they started a rhetorical thread.... oh but wait....isn't that judgement also?? The moment 'one' points 'one's' finger there is three pointing back at 'one' lolOl

It is only second to creating rhetorical questions to begin threads on discussion boards to pass judgement on others.

Yeah then then that would be third to speculating incorrectly as to what someone's motive was as to why they started a rhetorical thread.... oh but wait....isn't that judgement also?? The moment 'one' points 'one's' finger there is three pointing back at 'one' lolOl

Actually this isn't true in my case. Every time someone says this, I point at them.

My index and thumb point at them.The other three fingers are pretty much orthogonal to the other two, curled into a "small fist".

So when I point at you, there are two fingers pointing at you, and since I am a southpaw, three pointing to whoever is to the left of my hand.

No but seriously i do have a point (but i just wanted to start the thread in a original way haha...) and that is how can you judge yourself as to whether you are too spiritual or not?? In all the activities in life.... and life is to be enjoyed no matter what thing it is people find to do.... what might be silly to one person might be worthwhile to another. I don't mean switching on and off with God.... i mean when someone becomes way to serious so that everything is intensly spiritual and they do almost nothing that is just a timewaster.

Everything that Jesus did seems to be like that but then again..... the only things documented would have been things that were significant i guess. But he must have had times where he just kicked off and was his human self!!! But then if he was chatting in the temple at 12 he might have been serious and purposefull all the time.

How do you judge the healthy ballance in yourself of things you spend your time on and how spiritual someone is??Thanks Poppy

But he must have had times where he just kicked off and was his human self!!!How do you judge the healthy ballance in yourself of things you spend your time on and how spiritual someone is??Thanks Poppy

First, after the Incarnation He was and always Has been His "human self."

Overemphasizing the dichotomy between the Divine and the Human can become dangerous, when it comes to talking about Christ or ourselves..

You second question is valid and the answers will vary of course for everyone, with everyone I imagine falling short of the reasonable measure they would be given.

Personally, I fail miserably, but I might be overly scrupulous per my Priest's opinion. It is good Poppy, if you haven't already, to spend time in the lives of those you find Godly. You might be surprised how much time they spend not doing "spiritual" stuff.

Again the discernment between what is "spiritual" and what is not is probably best discussed with your Priest and those around you who find you respect and know to be honest, humble, and realistic.

My checklist:

Keeping a modest prayer rule (one I will follow, not one I wish I would).

Daily rule of reading Scripture. Whatever else I read is secondary.

Going to liturgy as often as I can, which nearly always, as I have much freedom with my time.

Making my life transparent to more than a few people who I trust and respect.

how can you judge yourself as to whether you are too spiritual or not?? In all the activities in life.... and life is to be enjoyed no matter what thing it is people find to do.... what might be silly to one person might be worthwhile to another. I don't mean switching on and off with God.... i mean when someone becomes way to serious so that everything is intensly spiritual and they do almost nothing that is just a timewaster.

Everything that Jesus did seems to be like that but then again..... the only things documented would have been things that were significant i guess. But he must have had times where he just kicked off and was his human self!!! But then if he was chatting in the temple at 12 he might have been serious and purposefull all the time.

How do you judge the healthy ballance in yourself of things you spend your time on and how spiritual someone is??Thanks Poppy

I have heard one definition of spirituality as "the way we deal with the hand we've been dealt". Wealth, poverty, health, sickness, and the big one that looms over us all, our ultimate death; a brittle disposition, an addictive personality, an unhappy marriage, a bad temper - our spirituality is essentially in what we do about those things that are to a greater or lesser extent "given", which are not of our own making or choosing. By this definition everyone has a "spirituality". Those who just think about pleasure and the comfort of themselves and perhaps their immediate family and friends still have a "spirituality" - it is just that their way of dealing with the hand they've been dealt is a kind of "blissful ignorance". I don't believe this way is a particularly effective form of spirituality of course, as it doesn't do anything to prepare a person for times of disease, bad fortune, or death; but it is still a form of "spirituality".

Now, the Orthodox Study Bible gives this definition of spirituality:

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SPIRITUALITY: The ascetic and pious struggle against sin, through repentance, prayer, fasting and participation in the sacramental life of the Church

Which is a definition I like. It isn't at odds with the other definition I gave further up (which I also like) because the OSB's definition is specifically the Christian "way we deal with the hand we've been dealt". And the lives of the Saints show us it is effective.

Now I haven't answered your question yet and I know this - I'm just trying to re-frame it a little. When you talk about someone being "intensely spiritual", you're referring to those who appear to "struggle against sin, through repentance, prayer, fasting and participation in the sacramental life of the Church" all the time. But both definitions of Spirituality given describe "being spiritual" as a means to an end (salvation) and not an end in itself. Being pious can lead us to salvation (but it might also lead some off into arrogance or delusion), but being pious does not equal salvation. Therefore if at some point in our lives, or even regularly, we need to "relax" in order to carry on the path of Salvation then we should relax. If, however, kicking back encourages us to be lazy or revert to past sins then we should concentrate more on asceticism. And in between the two extremes there are many shades. And so it leads onto your other question:

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How do you judge the healthy ballance in yourself

The answer is that you probably can't with any great ease. "To know oneself is a miracle greater than raising the dead" says St Isaac the Syrian. This is why in Orthodoxy there is the practice of having confessors and spiritual elders (often - but not always - priests), who can offer guidance. They will be able to offer guidance because you will confess to them your sins, and so they know what you must struggle the most against. Your struggles are your own, but have no doubt someone will have been there before you, and so they can offer the best path for you. This requires honesty of course - not in revealing everything about yourself to everyone, which you rightly hate, but in being transparent with at least one person you really, really, trust. God will give you such a person at some point.

Beyond that, as has been mentioned, be in the company of Godly people. I'm not saying anything against Reading, but just in case you cannot find anyone, then another way is to read the lives of the Saints. They are not all the same, indeed there is huge diversity among them, and so within their ranks there will be one or two who, through their lives, deeds and words, "speak to you". You will recognize in them yourself, to a certain degree, and so by looking at their lives and consequences you'll be given a template for your own life.

Those who just think about pleasure and the comfort of themselves and perhaps their immediate family and friends still have a "spirituality" - it is just that their way of dealing with the hand they've been dealt is a kind of "blissful ignorance". I don't believe this way is a particularly effective form of spirituality of course, as it doesn't do anything to prepare a person for times of disease, bad fortune, or death; but it is still a form of "spirituality".

crikey you always manage to show me exactly the side of something i am missing seeing.

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Therefore if at some point in our lives, or even regularly, we need to "relax" in order to carry on the path of Salvation then we should relax. If, however, kicking back encourages us to be lazy or revert to past sins then we should concentrate more on asceticism. And in between the two extremes there are many shades.

and again i am rli black and white and i find it hard to see things in a more balanced and all inclusive way. Its all spiritual but just that some things help and some things don't help us. That's what Aphy says as well. Thanks for reminding me.

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Your struggles are your own, but have no doubt someone will have been there before you, and so they can offer the best path for you. This requires honesty of course - not in revealing everything about yourself to everyone, which you rightly hate, but in being transparent with at least one person you really, really, trust. God will give you such a person at some point.

Ok one more question just on this though. The whole priest thing and confession; is it healthy for people to really on a priest or another person so much?? Given that whatever you struggle with is your own even if they have been there at some point all you end up doing is not feeling alone on that issue it doesn't change the fact that you still have to deal and struggle with it

you should always repent of your sin before God before you go to the priest.so you are always praying and being honest with God about everything.then the priest gives you a 'check-up' to see if you've understood correctly about God and prayer etc, and he also prays for you to God and afterwards tells you God has forgiven your sin.

so it's not like you're relying on him totally but he is there to check you don't get caught up in some dodgy understanding of religion.

as for 'chilling out', it's ok to do leisure activities, but we should not watch violent and aggressive films or tv shows that worship human sexuality, or indulge in racist jokes. apart from that, life is genuinely funny (mine is at least!) and it's ok to laugh, joke, play football, use the computer etc.what we need to check is whether we love the leisure activities more than we love God.the more we find out about God, the more we will want to read the Bible, go to church and talk about spiritual things with our friends and neighbours. so we may naturally find we have less time for leisure activities.

Poppy please read the purpose of the convert issues forum in the permanent files at the top of the Convert Issues Forum, your comments above are inappropriate to the spirit of this forum --- Thomas, Convert Issues Forum moderator.

1) We don't judge the spirituality of others.2) In Orthodoxy, you really don't know if someone is praying. We don't often close our eyes during prayer, and to goal is to pray without ceasing. That doesn't mean that we cease to do everything else while praying, that means we pray at all times while doing other things as well.

Prayer and spirituality aren't meant to separate us from daily life. In fact when we are more mature in terms of faith, we are more connected with daily life. I recall that when I was a child my mom would lock herself in her room for hours to "pray." I would have rather had my mom praying while she spent time with us, or even in front of us than have a "spiritual" mother locked in her bedroom for hours praying and reading the bible. She thought that this practice made her more spiritual. The reality is that the more you gain in spiritual maturity, the less you need to physically separate yourself from the more "earthly" things. The spiritual is meant to coexist with the mundane the vast majority of the time.

1) We don't judge the spirituality of others.2) In Orthodoxy, you really don't know if someone is praying. We don't often close our eyes during prayer, and to goal is to pray without ceasing. That doesn't mean that we cease to do everything else while praying, that means we pray at all times while doing other things as well.

Prayer and spirituality aren't meant to separate us from daily life. In fact when we are more mature in terms of faith, we are more connected with daily life. I recall that when I was a child my mom would lock herself in her room for hours to "pray." I would have rather had my mom praying while she spent time with us, or even in front of us than have a "spiritual" mother locked in her bedroom for hours praying and reading the bible. She thought that this practice made her more spiritual. The reality is that the more you gain in spiritual maturity, the less you need to physically separate yourself from the more "earthly" things. The spiritual is meant to coexist with the mundane the vast majority of the time.

THanks that's similar to what J.M.C said as well. When i was thinking of spiritual and being to spiritual i was thinking of people who are annoying because they show all of their spirituality in your face and like you to know about it.... but i guess that's not real spirituality at all. What you're saying is, that it should become part of who we are and blend in with our life and be like J.M.C said as well.... how we handle situations.... still going through them and being a part of the world but having a spiritual focus in everything.

I think that the Internet serves as a valuable tool to engage in religious/ cultural/ and social dialogue for the benefit of the world and our fellow man. Maybe there are those of us here who feel that we are providing a valuable service to the world by trying to both educate and enlighten people about various issues and resolve conflicts and erase doubts.

My Church teaches that dialogue with the world is a form of commitment for the modern Christian to undertake. Christianity is no longer just about trying to save ones own soul and isolation from modern society and its problems. It is rather about being a pilgrim walking on a journey with the world and trying to enlighten and help human society in its journey towards Christ. Use of social media and communications are a means to do this. So I'd cheer up and realize that, by participating hear on OC.net an other forums, we are actually fulfilling one of the modern requirements of the Christian life.

« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 04:49:39 PM by Robb »

Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.-- Gustave Flaubert

I think that the Internet serves as a valuable tool to engage in religious/ cultural/ and social dialogue for the benefit of the world and our fellow man. Maybe there are those of us here who feel that we are providing a valuable service to the world by trying to both educate and enlighten people about various issues and resolve conflicts and erase doubts.

My Church teaches that dialogue with the world is a form of commitment for the modern Christian to undertake. Christianity is no longer just about trying to save ones own soul and isolation from modern society and its problems. It is rather about being a pilgrim walking on a journey with the world and trying to enlighten and help human society in its journey towards Christ. Use of social media and communications are a means to do this. So I'd cheer up and realize that, by participating hear on OC.net an other forums, we are actually fulfilling one of the modern requirements of the Christian life.

Crikey i agree allot because if it wasn't for J.M.C being online and coming across me on another forum then i wouldn't have got interested in Orthodox things. I would have been sucked ina and spit out by the charismatics haha..... I think the internet is great for bring together people who would never have looked at a topic before. You should cheer up i think your all doing a really good job explaining all these things ^.^