Theo Book

Wasn't Adam and Eve flesh? If so, then it says the flesh cannot please God.

Quote from: Theo Book

Not until after the fall of man. Prior to that fall, he loo0k and proclaimed all things "very good."

God said it was "good", he didn't say it was perfect. It won't be perfect until all is in all.

You keep saying "the fall of man". Where did man fall from? Adam and Eve were flesh and blood just like we are. Eve sinned before she ever partook of the tree of good and evil. She LUSTED for the fruit of the vine, thought it could make her wise, PRIDEFUL.

CHB

"Lust" is translated "desire" which of itself is not sin. How you deal with it might result in sin, but it is not set in stone that all desire leads to sin. Jesus said "With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you." It is the same word in the Greek as is translated "lust" in James's book.

You are correct though, that no flesh will please God. I am still looking ino much of what is posted, as well as the books posted on the scholar's pages. I agree that salvation seems universal in nature, but I still have a problem with repentance taking place after death. I see no mention of such in scirpture. Any help?

Theo... the commonly used Greek word "DESTROY" ("perish in 2 Pet 3:9) -- is APOLLUMI, which was the condition of the LOST [apollumi/destroyed] SON... destruction IS temporary... for the issue of being LOST is an issue of DESTRUCTION when PERFECTION is considered by the observer.

The Parables of the LOST COIN, LOST SHEEP and LOST SON ...ALL... use the word APOLLUMI... in ALL cases destruction which is implied by the use of the word Apollumi is NOT PERMANENT... the COIN and SHEEP were both FOUND... (therefore NOT LOST) and the LOST SON, returned Home from destruction (therefore NOT DESTROYED nor LOST)

One who is LOST/destroyed/apollumi, is one which is OTHER than in a state of PERFECTION [which means COMPLETE]... but Scripture demonstrates parabolicly that this is NOT a permanent state.

Ignoring what I said here will NOT make it go away Theo... However, you are welcome to ignore it all you like...

Quote from: willieH

Okay Theo... WHO "seeks after God"? Rom 3:10-13 -- Psalm 14:1-3

If we are not "seeking" after Him, (coming to the light) OF OURSELVES... then we are, OF OURSELVES found, ...HATING the LIGHT... which is whyYHVH must DRAG each one to the WORD -- John 6:44 -- (one dragged is not coming willingly)... and even then the journey is not yet complete, ...for the WORD must then, REVEAL the Father to them -- John 14:6

For coming to it causes men EXPOSURE of the actual state they are IN...

As far as "Planned malicious hatred"... it is DECLARED we shall be DESPARATELY WICKED of HEART... what else can a DESPARATELY WICKED HEART ...Plan, bro?

More of the SAME...

Quote from: willieH

To assign such means that ..."CLAY" generates the shape it becomes (is becoming) via its own propensity! As an observer of nature, ...what "CLAY" has ever been witnessed "shaping itself" (in a good, bad, ugly or beautiful "manner")?

Again, this question is UNANSWERED by YOU...

Quote from: willieH

Your answer, did NOT ADDRESS what I asked you... Have you EVER witnessed CLAY -- SHAPING ITSELF? In ANY "manner"?

Because the NATURE of "CLAY" is RESISTENT, does not mean that said RESISTENCE is emergent of an INTENT of the CLAY... It is merely NATURALLY resistant, for HE which CREATED the CLAY, also CREATED its inherent feature of RESISTANCE.

Not of its "PLANNED MALICIOUS HATRED" of the POTTER, but of its NATURE, which was INTENDED of the POTTER which made it as well as SHAPES it.

Your reference to a "designer" in a CLAY factory is insufficient in this... for said "designer" is a mere human being who is NOT the designer (creator) OF the CLAY itself... he is only the RESHAPER of it.

I'll continue in the next post, and give you and opportunity to try to ANSWER what I asked you...

Since you seem to consider yourself an observer of CLAY... have you ever witnessed it SHAPING ITSELF? (Btw... Please don't cite, wet clay "falling apart", for this is not of an inherent "intent", it is simply the CLAY submitting to external affecting elements or laws such as water, and/or gravity)

Please do not tell me what not to cite. THAT is overcontrol. If I cite an argument and you can respond, that is one thing, but for you to tell me what not to argue is pretentious.

No need to get all up in a wrinkle brother T... and what I said was hardly "pretentious".

I was merely noting that elements OUTSIDE of CLAY such as WATER or GRAVITY, are not emergent FROM the CLAY... so stick with the CLAY ITSELF, as you (in futility) might try to describe its NATURAL properties or inherent "abilities" which might contribute to IT, ...."shaping" ITSELF...

Disregard for what the Scripture says, is the point, brother... As I pointed out, the "potter" example was given in Jer 18:4 and then IMMEDIATELY after it, YHVH inserts Himself in the TEXT ...AS... dealing WITH ISRAEL in the VERY SAME WAY.

1st -- MARRING the CLAY -- IN His HAND, then...

2nd -- MAKING it GOOD -- IN His HAND...

This IS the DIVINE order of Creation, in which GOD brings man PERFECTLY -- THROUGH SUFFERINGS -- Heb 2:10 -- unto Himself --->1 Cor 15:46

Jer 18:4-6 -- and the VESSEL that he made of CLAY was MARREDIN the HAND -- OF the POTTER; so he MADE IT AGAIN another VESSEL [see Rom 9:21], as it seemed GOOD to the potter to make... then the WORD of YHVH came SAYING unto me... O HOUSE of ISRAEL, cannot I DO WITH YOU, ...AS... this potter? SAITH YHVH, ...behold AS is the CLAY in the POTTERS HAND [example just given], ...SO ARE YE, ...INMYHAND, O [naturally resistant as IS the CLAY exampled] --- HOUSE of ISRAEL.

IGNORE it Theo... likely it is not for you at this time, rather it is for others. You are DEFINITELY a tool in the HAND of the potter, however, your teaching is about, ...MARRING the CLAY... NOT about making it AGAIN, ...GOOD.

As for witnessing clay shape itself, God himself gave you the excample in two different areas. First, in Jeremiah, which I cited for you, which applies to your question. God only decided good or evil AFTER the clay determined its use.

Unlike yourself... I answered you in detail... instead of reciprocating, you IGNORE the answer I gave and then complain that I have endeavored to CONTROL you...

As I ...JUST SAID... the example was given, and the PARALLEL noted by GOD in His dealings with ISRAEL...

Look again at how GOD speaks of HIS effort as the potter: Jer 18:3 "Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I DO WITH YOU as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."

This is God's description of himself dealing with Israel as a potter deals with his clay. I DID NOT MAKE THIS UP. GOD DID. I think it will be prudent for you to make the same application God did. HE, AS a potter, forms the clay, and only AFTER determining how the clay behaves, decides how to respond to its behaviour. He does not design evil into the pot.

Again, GOD you purposely IGNORE the FACT that it was GOD which created the CLAY with a NATURAL RESISTANCE... and it is MARRED ...IN... His HAND (meaning that the marring was NOT, "done" of the "mind" of the CLAY -- AS -- the prior example PLAINLY displays... IS within the CREATED RESISTANCE which it was PURPOSED to HAVE, by the CREATOR OF THE CLAY... and therein [within the Creation of the CLAY -- BY -- the CREATOR] is found the "MARRING"...

Again... I have no problem with YOU ignoring any of this... just with letting your opinion stand before others as you campaign for that ignorance to remain, in the stead of the TRUTH.

Second: You ask if I ever observed clay forming itself. 2 Cor 4:7 "But we have this treasure in [clay][ostracinois] earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us." ostrakinois = dative neuter plural adjective = made of baked clay, pottery. My response is YES! I have seen this mortal clay tiome and again make decisions contrary to its best interest, as family and neighbors, friends, and strangers, dete3rmined to go their own headstrong way. I had a baby sister that took her own life. I do not believe for a moment, God directed her to do that. I do not accept that it was God's will that she kill herself. She was impregnated by a Catholic priest, her councellor, and when her baby was born, he made her give it to the Catholic orphanage. She killed herself because of post partum depression, only one among other issues she had. IT WAS NOT GOD'S WILL. The earthen vessel she was did her in.

FIRST -- might I express my heartfelt condolences at this tragedy... My heart goes out to you brother, in your experience of the death of your sister... In discussing this, I too have experienced such a tragedy, ...I lost a GRANDSON 8.75 months... stillborn. I KNOW what tragedy is. I know there was meaning and purpose in that death, as we are ALL intertwined... and felt deep sorrow at being deprived of my grandson... yet knew that he was spared the sorrows of this life within his untimely death. I could blame GOD for this... but instead PRAISE Him, for I shall see him one day in a better place, as shall you, your sister.

GOD means for tragedy to come into our lives at the hand of the practice of EVIL. We REAP what we SOW... and experiencing this life, is meant to be a DIFFICULT experience. We follow our Savior within the "SUFFERING experience", at the hand of EVIL. His life was of giving, healing, loving, helping, etc. ...yet culminated in horrible persecution, beating, humiliation and ultimately -- death, at the hand of the worst of scenarios (crucifixtion)... All that said...

SECOND -- Your reply did NOT ADDRESS the question I asked, Theo... and your attempt to EVADE answering it is hereby noted... as we were speaking of CLAY as found in (to use your words), a "clay factory"...

I did not ask you ANYTHING about "MORTAL CLAY"... I clearly asked you about NATURAL CLAY... for in IT, is found what is actually happening within CLAY that is in the "MORTAL" condition (man).

It is important that we observe the EXAMPLE which was FIRST given by YHVH in -- Jer 18:4 -- for it sets the tone for what follows... noting that this example of the "potter"... is EXACTLY how GOD is working within HIS SHAPING of US...

You continue to EVADE, and in your "summary" answers, attempt to sidestep DETAILS... which, in the end... will NOT PROFIT you...

This is probably the manner of discussion you used with Gary Amirault 11 years ago, in your FIRM disagreements with him about UR...

You failed to learn TRUTH offered to you by GOD through Gary Amirault "THEN", ...and you continue the SAME pattern and purpose, in the "NOW".

...willieH

« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 01:04:01 AM by reFORMer »

Logged

Paul Hazelwood

You are correct though, that no flesh will please God. I am still looking ino much of what is posted, as well as the books posted on the scholar's pages. I agree that salvation seems universal in nature, but I still have a problem with repentance taking place after death. I see no mention of such in scirpture. Any help?

Theo, will you die perfect having repented of every single sin you have ever comitted? If not, then what hope do you have in your current belief structure if you then cannot repent after death?

You are correct though, that no flesh will please God. I am still looking ino much of what is posted, as well as the books posted on the scholar's pages. I agree that salvation seems universal in nature, but I still have a problem with repentance taking place after death. I see no mention of such in scirpture. Any help?

Theo, will you die perfect having repented of every single sin you have ever comitted? If not, then what hope do you have in your current belief structure if you then cannot repent after death?

Of course. Are there sins in your conscience of which it can be said you have not repented? I seriously doubt it. Not knowing, however, I can only hope on your behalf. THAT is the purpose of contemplation of one's faults. To rid the conscience of the deceitfulness of sin. To avail one's self of the blood of Christ.

Perfection is not mine to claim, it is God's to impute, and mine to hope for, to pray for, to long for. But, to attain? Not my call.

Logged

Paul Hazelwood

Of course. Are there sins in your conscience of which it can be said you have not repented? I seriously doubt it. Not knowing, however, I can only hope on your behalf. THAT is the purpose of contemplation of one's faults. To rid the conscience of the deceitfulness of sin. To avail one's self of the blood of Christ.

Perfection is not mine to claim, it is God's to impute, and mine to hope for, to pray for, to long for. But, to attain? Not my call.

I'm not quite sure what your saying here. Are you saying you will not need to repent after death because you have "contemplated" your faults in this life?

Theo... the commonly used Greek word "DESTROY" ("perish in 2 Pet 3:9) -- is APOLLUMI, which was the condition of the LOST [apollumi/destroyed] SON... destruction IS temporary... for the issue of being LOST is an issue of DESTRUCTION when PERFECTION is considered by the observer.

The Parables of the LOST COIN, LOST SHEEP and LOST SON ...ALL... use the word APOLLUMI... in ALL cases destruction which is implied by the use of the word Apollumi is NOT PERMANENT... the COIN and SHEEP were both FOUND... (therefore NOT LOST) and the LOST SON, returned Home from destruction (therefore NOT DESTROYED nor LOST)

One who is LOST/destroyed/apollumi, is one which is OTHER than in a state of PERFECTION [which means COMPLETE]... but Scripture demonstrates parabolicly that this is NOT a permanent state.

Ignoring what I said here will NOT make it go away Theo... However, you are welcome to ignore it all you like...

Willie, Willie, Willie, Do you think you are the only corespondent on the board I try to respond to? I do not respond to every item on every post for the simple reason, I have not had time to reason all of them out with any degree of certainty. Will you, with patience, allow me time to assimilate all that is said? It is now 14 pages of information, all of which I am not avoiding, I am simply trying to touch here a little, there a little, while I study the content of all that is being said for my education on an issue I am not knowledgable in.

Of course. Are there sins in your conscience of which it can be said you have not repented? I seriously doubt it. Not knowing, however, I can only hope on your behalf. THAT is the purpose of contemplation of one's faults. To rid the conscience of the deceitfulness of sin. To avail one's self of the blood of Christ.

Perfection is not mine to claim, it is God's to impute, and mine to hope for, to pray for, to long for. But, to attain? Not my call.

I'm not quite sure what your saying here. Are you saying you will not need to repent after death because you have "contemplated" your faults in this life?

Nope! I'm saying I am not aware of any scriptural teaching that deals with opportunity after death to repent. Do YOU?Please share!

Nope! I'm saying I am not aware of any scriptural teaching that deals with opportunity after death to repent. Do YOU?Please share!

A few thoughts I have on this Theo. 1) when every knee bows and every tongue confesses (joyfully proclaims/openly acknowledges) it is **IN** the Holy Spirit (the accurate translation as opposed to BY the Holy Spirit - IMO, big difference. 2) the scripture of dead works, wood, hay, stubble burned so the sould may be saved sounds "post-mortem" to me, 3) if one takes the Revelation both chronologically and future, the last chapter shows the gates of the City open day and night while the kings of the earth bring their treasures into it (who are the kings and priests [the saved/overcomers?] and what are their treasures [gold and silver, or converts?]. I believe the latter. 4) there is a study of "each in his own order" having to do with "the rest" after Christ's coming then being reconciled - also scriptures regarding the reconciliation of all things, vivification of all, etc....

It all has to do with time and circumstance, design and design flaws incorporated in new patterns. Some work, some do not. And even some will work and some not within the parameters of a new pattern. Time and circumstance happens to them all.

Watch and see how it is the clay disobeys God's will. AND it is only AFTER the clay becomes evil in behaviour, that God determiones to destroy it. He did not make some pots evil and some good, he made them all and watched to see how they would turn out. Jer 18:3 "Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."

Your attempt to avoid what is stated is shown in your own "contextual" report:

6"AS the CLAY is in the potter's hand [which noted being MARRED in the hand of said potter]... so ARE YE --- IN MINE HAND, ...O house of ISRAEL..."

YHVH is noting an example of CLAY to the hearer... which notes that ALL of its shaping, good or bad, is done by the exampled potter, ...and in the VERY SAME WAY ["AS"] ...ALL of said SHAPING and RESHAPING of ISRAEL [God's people] is done BY the hand of the POTTER... to include the "MARRING" and the "REMAKING" of the "marred clay".

Oh, I see your point quite adequately WH; I hjust do not agree with your final conclusion. You see, you are not tasked with just the final conclusion, but must properly assess all that leads to that conclusion.

Look again at what God said. I will begin with that part that leads to YOUR cdonclusion, then expand to MY conclusion, for your consideration:

THE PART THAT LEADS TO YOUR FINAL CONCLUSION: Jer 18:3 "Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

I agree, God's part in designing the pots from clay seems to parallel that of the potter who designs pots. BUT, God tells of a difference, in just the next part of the context: Jer 18:7 "At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."

Look real close WH; God tells us at what point he determines a vessel has not turned out according to its original design. "

Are you really serious, Theo? "God tells us at what point he determines a vessel has NOT TURNED OUT according to ITS ORIGINAL DESIGN"?

Sorry, (and no offense intended to you personally) but THAT is just completely ridiculous.

You demote GOD from PERFECT, to being an IMPERFECT "designer" within this statement bro... for YOU CLAIM, that the "ORIGINAL DESIGN" had FLAWS which INTRODUCED THEMSELVES as time passed, and did not "turn out" as intended... And which He did not account for!

You expect that I should listen to you, but... Are you even listening to yourself brother?

What shall we therefore, have in the Heavenly realm, Theo? Are there things in ETERNITY, that shall also follow these flaw ridden "guidelines", you propose?

i.e. As you herein propose, "the ORIGINAL DESIGN" of GOD, contains potential PROBLEMS not taken into account?

So, if we give ear to your proposal that GOD has "designer" flaws in His Creative ability... (His "stuff" doesn't "turn out" as He planned)

What of the PAIN and SUFFERING which GOD notes shall NOT "be" any more? -- Rev 21:4 -- according to YOUR thinking, such a claim is NOT an ABSOLUTE... and maybe, just maybe... these awful things He claims as forever GONE, ...shall possibly (according to you and your deduction of GOD's "designer" problems) -- RE-OCCUR?

Your arguements are so full of holes bro... It is an easy task to expose the folly in them... as they present GOD in the wrong perspective... which is sorrowfully, ...a "Creator" that just "hasn't got it down" yet.

Such as suggesting Adam and Eve to have been created PERFECT (as IS God), yet "choosing" IMPERFECTION...

And as do many in Christianity... you stumble within this SHIPWRECK of a presentation of our ALL POWERFUL Creator...

At what instant" is a reference to a particular popint in time at which God makes a decision based on results, not intention. He proceeds then to define the moment "IF that nation against whom I have pronounced, turn from evil..."

Do you see it WH? There is opportunity provided before God destroys, to repent. THAT tells us God did not design with intent for nations to do evil. He designed nations to exist, and only after their intent becomes evident from their activities, does he then determine to advance, or deter, their activity with destruction or blessings.

This again goes against the DECLARATION of ALL things YET to be DONE -- Isaiah 46:10 -- and proposes ALTERNATIVE possibilities... which proposal in turn proposes that GOD is UNSURE of the statements made in HIS WORD (which is also an UNCHANGEABLE entity)...

You are welcome to swallow this garbage if you are so moved... it is completely contrary to GOD as OMNISCIENT as PERFECT, and as ALMIGHTY... for that which He proposes, creates and delegates power to... can and (according to YOU) DOES, ...UPSET His "applecart".

This type of dialogue is called CONDESCENSION... God speaks from an ETERNAL platform to TEMPORAL ears... and only through the SPIRIT, can the TEMPORAL gain ETERNAL insight. You observe in LITERAL terms, that which is SPIRITUAL... and deduce that your conclusion (arrived upon "literally") is SPIRITUAL.

You have GOD, who is PERFECT... watching us to "see" what we DO, and then REACTING to US... which is the CART before the HORSE... we DO what we DO, because GOD has already NOTED via His DECLARATION, what we DID, before it was DONE... and has marked said DOING beforehand...

Rom 9:11 -- how do you account for this Scripture, Theo? How is it that GOD is NO RESPECTER of persons (perfectly impartial)... and yet ESAU, before he had even taken a breath, was DESTINED to SERVE Jacob... not according to anything EITHER of them DID (good or evil)... but according to GOD and HIS ELECTION of these two lives, that HIS PURPOSE would be DONE, ...BY them? If GOD so treated these lives, then ALL LIVES are so treated, for HE is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS -- Acts 10:34 -- Mark 12:14 -- Eph 6:9 -- Gal 2:6 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- Col 3:25 -- Prov 28:21 -- 2 Chron 19:17 -- Job 34:19 -- Rom 2:11

Jer 18:7 "At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."

To begin with GOD does NOT CHANGE, as noted in -- Mal 3:6 -- "repentence" represents a CHANGE...

Where GOD says "IF"... is NOT what takes place... for HIS WORD has DECLARED otherwise... so that "repentence" which proposes HE CHANGE, falls forever inert, before His DECLARED intention for history.

When Abraham proposed that GOD not destroy SODOM & GOMORRAH for the sake of 50 (then 45, then 40, then 30, then 20, then 10), GOD consented that He would withhold DESTRUCTION, ...but as the "IF" number was revisited over and over, ...the REALITY was, that NONE of those proposed "IF" numbers represented the ACTUAL number that GOD began with within His PURPOSE, ...by calling LOT, his wife and 2 daughters forth... and the REALITY was that SODOM & GOMORRAH were DESTROYED...

So as I have previously noted (and I am sure you ignored), this is another example of DIVINE SPIRITUAL CONDESCENSION... which means that what actually IS... actually IS... There are NO "alternate possibilities"... What IS, ...IS...

And the WORD of GOD seeks to propose to the FINITE observer, the TRUTH that GOD shall NOT EVER REPENT (change His mind) of what He has PURPOSED... rather that we might be REVEALED to this TRUTH... and seek in our hearts, the opposite course (good), from the one we presently pursue (evil)

Though you shall NO DOUBT, vehemently disagree, ...Until you come to realize this, you shall find a VEIL (cherubim) within your eyes... as you observe the Holy WORD which is UNCHANGING and PERMANENT in its DECLARATIONS.

You make YHVH subject to YOU and YOUR decisions...

You see dear brother, your observations are all centered upon YOU... which "centering" thinks that -- what YOU do -- what YOU think and -- what YOU percieve -- is that to which GOD must react... and until said perception SEES that the COMPLETE opposite is true, then you shall not SEE the TRUTH within the WORD of God...

Once you relinquish ALL to Him that you might consider as "YOURS" (what YOU think, what YOU do, what YOU percieve), ...shall you have placed yourself at the foot of His Son... and submitted to the ORDAINATION of your pathway as decided by HIM not by YOU... departing from THIS group: Matt 7:22-23

Your dialogue is often contradictive in so many ways, and which shall not be detered other than via DIVINE intervention... to which end I am in hopes for you to be in prayer.

Theo... the commonly used Greek word "DESTROY" ("perish in 2 Pet 3:9) -- is APOLLUMI, which was the condition of the LOST [apollumi/destroyed] SON... destruction IS temporary... for the issue of being LOST is an issue of DESTRUCTION when PERFECTION is considered by the observer.

The Parables of the LOST COIN, LOST SHEEP and LOST SON ...ALL... use the word APOLLUMI... in ALL cases destruction which is implied by the use of the word Apollumi is NOT PERMANENT... the COIN and SHEEP were both FOUND... (therefore NOT LOST) and the LOST SON, returned Home from destruction (therefore NOT DESTROYED nor LOST)

One who is LOST/destroyed/apollumi, is one which is OTHER than in a state of PERFECTION [which means COMPLETE]... but Scripture demonstrates parabolicly that this is NOT a permanent state.

Ignoring what I said here will NOT make it go away Theo... However, you are welcome to ignore it all you like...

Willie, Willie, Willie, Do you think you are the only corespondent on the boad I try to respond to? I do not respond to every item on every post for the simple reason, I have not had time to reason all of them out with any degree of certainty. Will you, with patience, allow me time to assimilate all that is said?

Sorry brother... I did not mean to appear impatient...

I realize you are being questioned from all sides here... but what did you expect coming here?

It is now 14 pages of information, all of which I am not avoiding, I am simply trying to touch here a little, there a little, while I study the content of all that is being said for my education on an issue I am not knowledgable in.

Take your time...

I have often been at NON-UR boards discussing UR, ...and KNOW what you are up against... dont mean to be "pushy"...

This is probably the manner of discussion you used with Gary Amirault 11 years ago, in your FIRM disagreements with him about UR...

You failed to learn TRUTH offered to you by GOD through Gary Amirault "THEN", ...and you continue the SAME pattern and purpose, in the "NOW".

Really? Based upon what?

Primarily, your beliefs are ...UNREASONABLE and unaligned with REASON... to name a few:

(1) you have noted that Adam & Eve were created PERFECT, yet manifested IMPERFECTION...

(2) you have noted that GOD makes things that "dont turn out" as intended... reducing His PERFECTION as a Creator...

(3) you have noted that IMPERFECTION is that which dicates to PERFECTION -- as GOD must "react" to us, instead of the opposite...

(4) you propose that GOD who is PERFECT is able to "REPENT" for things He has DONE... which denotes Him to CHANGE His mind... which proposes that His mind is as unstable as ours.

(5) in the proposal that Scripture notes that He can "REPENT"... Scripture which says that HE does NOT CHANGE -- Mal 3:6 -- is therefore compromised...

(6) your proposal that GOD brings forth things which do NOT function as INTENDED, arises the thought that within the course of the ETERNAL setting, ...that which is said to be PASSED AWAY, could potentially reappear, due to GOD's shortcomings as a "designer"... Also compromising the Scriptures...

Nope! I'm saying I am not aware of any scriptural teaching that deals with opportunity after death to repent. Do YOU?Please share!

A few thoughts I have on this Theo. 1) when every knee bows and every tongue confesses (joyfully proclaims/openly acknowledges) it is **IN** the Holy Spirit (the accurate translation as opposed to BY the Holy Spirit - IMO, big difference. 2) the scripture of dead works, wood, hay, stubble burned so the sould may be saved sounds "post-mortem" to me, 3) if one takes the Revelation both chronologically and future, the last chapter shows the gates of the City open day and night while the kings of the earth bring their treasures into it (who are the kings and priests [the saved/overcomers?] and what are their treasures [gold and silver, or converts?]. I believe the latter. 4) there is a study of "each in his own order" having to do with "the rest" after Christ's coming then being reconciled - also scriptures regarding the reconciliation of all things, vivification of all, etc....

o.k. I'll take another look from that perspective.

I must say here, that I have been reading "The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment by Thayer, and it is beginning to appear he does not believe scripture was inspired by the Holy Spirit, and that the authors of the new covenant were involved in pagan theologies. He speaks of II Peter's account of Michael disputing with the devil over the body of Moses, as "that idle and ridiculous fable."

He references the parable of the rich man and Lazarus as "borrowed from the heathen." He says it did not originate with Jesus but came from babylon. "Now, No one can believe in such a hell as this." "A meterial hell of fire, and torments by flame, have long ago been abandoned." Well, that is the issue is it not? His "proof" argument is based upon, "we have long ago abandoned it?"

The more I read from these pages posted on the "scholars page" the more problems seem to appear. Or am I expected to simply accept the word of a "scholar" who says, "oh, we abandoned that idea long ago?"

I do think the eventual salvaton of all is indicated in scripture, but I do not see where age-lasting torment is eliminated from scripture.

Theo Book

6"AS the CLAY is in the potter's hand [which noted being MARRED in the hand of said potter]... so ARE YE --- IN MINE HAND, ...O house of ISRAEL..."

YHVH is noting an example of CLAY to the hearer... which notes that ALL of its shaping, good or bad, is done by the exampled potter, ...and in the VERY SAME WAY ["AS"] ...ALL of said SHAPING and RESHAPING of ISRAEL [God's people] is done BY the hand of the POTTER... to include the "MARRING" and the "REMAKING" of the "marred clay".

I personally do not see how you cannot see this brother Theo...

OH! I see what you mean. God, just as the human potter, makes marred (imperfect) pots out of the clay. Ao you agree, God's creation is imperfect. And God therefore is an imperfect creator. Why didn't you say so before? So, if I understand your position,you are saying we are imperfect because our creator is imperfect. Makes perfect sense. Just as that human potter makes marred clay pots. "Just As." Simple. How did I miss that before. Thank you for clearing that up.

Nope! I'm saying I am not aware of any scriptural teaching that deals with opportunity after death to repent. Do YOU?Please share!

A few thoughts I have on this Theo. 1) when every knee bows and every tongue confesses (joyfully proclaims/openly acknowledges) it is **IN** the Holy Spirit (the accurate translation as opposed to BY the Holy Spirit - IMO, big difference. 2) the scripture of dead works, wood, hay, stubble burned so the sould may be saved sounds "post-mortem" to me, 3) if one takes the Revelation both chronologically and future, the last chapter shows the gates of the City open day and night while the kings of the earth bring their treasures into it (who are the kings and priests [the saved/overcomers?] and what are their treasures [gold and silver, or converts?]. I believe the latter. 4) there is a study of "each in his own order" having to do with "the rest" after Christ's coming then being reconciled - also scriptures regarding the reconciliation of all things, vivification of all, etc....

I do think the eventual salvaton of all is indicated in scripture, but I do not see where age-lasting torment is eliminated from scripture.

There's much I don't agree with from various UR writers. No one has all the answers. For me, it's the big picture. Remember the "outline/framework" I talked about in an earlier post to you? Then lots of details mixed in that we may not understand until "then", because we see through a glass darkly. That's one reason I'm wondering about struggling over some of these doctrinal issues at some point - I've swore up and down about things only to find out later that God had something further for me to understand...

So on point, your last line above regarding "age-lasting torment". I personally agree (Willi, I know you don't, and not confronting or picking an argument here) just saying that's certainly the way I understand it as well. An age - period of time with a beginning and an end. From some of his studies on aion and old Jewish writings, White Wings suggests that could be from a day to 1 year; and torment, basanismo - testing for purity, as with a touchstone, as in refining metals and "finding" the gold. Not an expert on this, but Jesus used a phrase (someone help me out) that meant something like kolasis aionios, an age/time of correction - not "eternal torment or separation". One thing J. Preston Eby says that really gets one's attention is, in the Rev. verse regarding "tormented in the presence of the Lamb"...he talks about imagining the precious, gentle Son of God, the gentle Lamb slain for us - standing by just watching while millions were tortured endlessly, agonizingly searing with no purpose or hope - watching 95% of humanity being "lost" to Satan's grasp, while He only managed to salvage 5%. Where's the mercy of a Lamb, a God Who IS love, and a Victorious Jesus Christ the Messiah in that scenario?

Mod Note - It may be time to step back, take a breath, and realize there's a point beyond which further struggling on "doctrinal details" is likely to do no good. If you've expressed what you believe, then please consider backing things down a bit - maybe even refocusing on one of the other 24 Questions . Thanks, James.

Paul Hazelwood

OH! I see what you mean. God, just as the human potter, makes marred (imperfect) pots out of the clay. Ao you agree, God's creation is imperfect. And God therefore is an imperfect creator. Why didn't you say so before? So, if I understand your position,you are saying we are imperfect because our creator is imperfect. Makes perfect sense. Just as that human potter makes marred clay pots. "Just As." Simple. How did I miss that before. Thank you for clearing that up.

You have to realize that this argument has a slippery slope. No matter how it is approached God can be made to look imperfect. EVEN if you decide that mans "FW" is the difference between Gods perfection and imperfection it is still a losing argument.

You cannot reconcile the logic that God created man perfect and then that perfection made a flawed choice. How does perfection make a flawed choice?

Just doesn't work no matter how you hope it does. This would imply indeed that God being perfection may one day make a flawed choice.

Ro 8:20 For to *vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him *Who subjects it, onin expectation

While I often disagree over some things with some of my friends here, I know that we are not completely free in the sense that the word often implies because scripture declares that we are not.

Logged

Paul Hazelwood

Mod Note - It may be time to step back, take a breath, and realize there's a point beyond which further struggling on "doctrinal details" is likely to do no good. If you've expressed what you believe, then please consider backing things down a bit - maybe even refocusing on one of the other 24 Questions . Thanks, James.

I hadn't really noticed you getting "heated" Paul, unless I missed something. Putting a little 'pause' in there in case anyone needs a little interruption to regroup. If not, then discuss away - sorry for not being more clear. Thanks

Paul Hazelwood

I do think the eventual salvaton of all is indicated in scripture, but I do not see where age-lasting torment is eliminated from scripture.

Well, let me put it this way as a point where all sides can find a common thread of agreement.

Some believe that this age lasting torment is now on earth. I do not necessarily agree 100%, however I have been in great torment in certain parts of my life so it is something I consider more than I might let on for personal reasons. However, someone who believes that is not "eliminating" age-lasting torment it is merely "WHEN" it occurs that would be in disagreement.

So if you actually agree in the consideration of Salvation for all and Judgment for all, then you agree with people around here more than it may appear.