Nik wrote:You defend the mass and christmas being a Christian virtue,(A) Christ was is and never will be Catholic (B) Mass is taking of the Eucharist , the little cookie in the sun worship symbol the pope carries(C) it's a symbol of the rememberence of the DEATH of Christ(D) when you say Merry Christs Mass your actually saying happy Christs death, yet you celebrate his birth?(E) look in Rev 11:10 and see who made merry and gifts to one another(FGH...XYZ) you can fill a book with this pagan false worship Don't justify your perversion by trying to make something ungodly and pagan into something righteous and holy by putting a bit of tinsel over it.Her 10:2-5 should cover that

Please, it should be helpful if you reread my posts; there was nothing of what you state endorsed in my writings.The matter in the late posts has centered in proving the early church practice of the mass. Sorry you are randomly mixing up information.Sad to say, also, that you seem totally misinformed about my position on the matter.

Nik wrote:B Mc(Santa)CauslandYou defend the mass and christmas being a Christian virtue,(A) Christ was is and never will be Catholic (B) Mass is taking of the Eucharist , the little cookie in the sun worship symbol the pope carries(C) it's a symbol of the rememberence of the DEATH of Christ(D) when you say Merry Christs Mass your actually saying happy Christs death, yet you celebrate his birth?(E) look in Rev 11:10 and see who made merry and gifts to one another(FGH...XYZ) you can fill a book with this pagan false worship Don't justify your perversion by trying to make something ungodly and pagan into something righteous and holy by putting a bit of tinsel over it.Her 10:2-5 should cover thatPraise the Lord (everyday)

What comment of B Macs did you get that she was defending Christmas traditions?

Careful reading of comments is always needed. Especially when you start calling them Santa.

B Mc(Santa)CauslandYou defend the mass and christmas being a Christian virtue,(A) Christ was is and never will be Catholic (B) Mass is taking of the Eucharist , the little cookie in the sun worship symbol the pope carries(C) it's a symbol of the rememberence of the DEATH of Christ(D) when you say Merry Christs Mass your actually saying happy Christs death, yet you celebrate his birth?(E) look in Rev 11:10 and see who made merry and gifts to one another(FGH...XYZ) you can fill a book with this pagan false worship Don't justify your perversion by trying to make something ungodly and pagan into something righteous and holy by putting a bit of tinsel over it.Her 10:2-5 should cover thatPraise the Lord (everyday)

1. Without any presupposed judgement, it needs to be admitted that the Victorians, with their knowledge of ancient languages, ancient mythology, and ready access to other sources had a far better advantage over the modern researcher.

Many of the Victorian writers have been maligned and their works undermined and discarded as not credible, yet their works seemed better researched than our present books are, which quite often are prone to false syllogisms.

If one wishes to know a matter in depth, better not to dismiss their erudition.

However, perhaps it is a pity that Hislop did not document his findings and conclusions in more detail.

_

2. Not really, you may like to examine primary sources of the day: the Celtic Church (Columba's) and the RCC represented by Bede which present many similarities in common.

Their day was plagued with monasticism, indirect prayer to saints and the mystical /'sacrificial'/meritorial offering of the Eucharist by the priesthood

John UK wrote:I thought I'd read somewhere that a time came when the RCC decided to hold an extra special mass called Christ's Mass on Dec 25th

All the festivities of the early church were linked to special services called the mass.As with any other wrong practice of the RC church, an issue goes on for a long time before it cements as a 'dogma', or rule of practice.

Surely History, as any other source of knowledge, needs to be tested by the Word, however, the difficulty is that in this case, bland (bias) statements may misrepresent true facts in general references. This is the reason why one should rely on primary sources to deduce conclusions.

I thought I'd read somewhere that a time came when the RCC decided to hold an extra special mass called Christ's Mass on Dec 25th. Maybe it was duff info.

The answers to the whole issue are best dug out as nuggets from the inerrant word of God, seeing as there are plenty of examples of how God's people go astray when they permit the heathenish practices into the purity of the camp.

An idol is nothing but spiritual fellowship happens with the source behind it: devils.

"What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?"

Buckeyes wrote:@John UKIf Woodrow hadnât listed the volume and page numbers it would have had to wait âtill next year! I just so happened to check and see if any library or college may have posted it online, and sure enough there they were! Only took about half an hour with a rather slow internet connection. In answer to your question, yes it does unfortunately appear that Hislop did some serious twisting, jumping, and omiting. Also, considering it was done in the 1880âs there are some errors in his work simply due to the discovery of newer and better evidence. âThe Bible is inerrantâ On that we can agree whole-heartedly!!

It is a very deep subject TMC, and worthy of exploration. We need to be aware if we are in any way embracing any heathen practices unwittingly. I truly believe the Bible has the answers we need, but they take some grappling with, and I get tired quickly. Anyway, thanks for responding in such a gracious spirit; it is a good testimony.----------

Thanks Sister B, I'm looking into it. Maybe there is a present day scholar who has gone right into this. I can't help but think that this and other similar issues are associated with a lack of revival in the churches and judgment of God.

John UK wrote:Hislop's exaggerations or selective reasoning, merely to bolster an argument, without giving all of the facts?In this country, paganism was very much a part of the early centuries of the church

Traces of evidence about the substitution of the Druid festivities carried on for the rebirth of the SUN, with the birth of the 'Sun of righteousness':

1. The circle in the Celtic cross placed where the two beams cross

2. Patrick's confession where he calls upon 'Helious' (Sun for Greek)"while I was sleeping Satan attacked me violently, .. and there fell on top of me as it were, a huge rock,and not one of my members had any force.But from whence did it come to me, ignorantin the spirit, to call upon âHeliasâ? And meanwhile I saw the sun rising in the sky, and while I was crying out âHelias, Heliasâ with all my might, lo, the brilliance of that sun fell upon me and immediately shook me free of all the weight;and I believe that I was aided by Christ my Lord"

3. The present âroundâ wafer which is placed in the RC altar in a brilliant plate of silver, âin the form of the SUNâ to be worshiped, which evokes the imaginary of the âSUNâ

(TMC) @B. McCauslandIf memory serves me right, the period around Columba was one with very light âunityâ between the various regional churches and their liturgical methodologies. Church history in that period can be rather rough- what with the RCC trying to bolster their âclaim to sameâ throughout the ages; and a general lack of surviving documentation. The question being asked is: Does the word âMassâ refer to a re- âsacrificingâ of Christ. The answer, IMO, is no because it literally means âto sendâ, came from the dismissal, and preceeded the only objective indicator we have of the widespread adoption of Transubstantiation.@John UKIf Woodrow hadnât listed the volume and page numbers it would have had to wait âtill next year! I just so happened to check and see if any library or college may have posted it online, and sure enough there they were! Only took about half an hour with a rather slow internet connection. In answer to your question, yes it does unfortunately appear that Hislop did some serious twisting, jumping, and omiting. Also, considering it was done in the 1880âs there are some errors in his work simply due to the discovery of newer and better evidence. âThe Bible is inerrantâ On that we can agree whole-heartedly!!

US Wrotw:"...actually we have a video of her shooting bb's at her neighbors inflatable Santa (it is amazing what you can get from Google Earth), but seeing they fell harmlessly into the yard we aren't telling anybody about it, so please keep it under your hat."

Buckeyes wrote:(TMC@John UK Sorry about the link, see if this works:apologetics-notes.comereason.org/2015/12/no-christmas-is-not-based-on-pagan.htmlThe question about Woodrow is a good one to ask. However, archive.org uploaded Wilkinsonâs âAncient Egytiansâ in 2015 and I just got done verifying all of Woodrowâs references to it in that article. What he said is true. If you like, I can give you links to the 3 volumes he referenced so you can check for yourself.

Thanks TMC, my word, you've been busy. How do you find the time for all of that?

So your conclusion is that Woodrow is correct about Hislop's exaggerations or selective reasoning, merely to bolster an argument, without giving all of the facts? That is important to deduce, so I thank you.

In this country, paganism was very much a part of the early centuries of the church here. I think we would be horrified if we attended a fellowship in those days by time travel.

I tell you what, for next year's debate, I hope to have studied the heathen infiltration in the OT church, and the Lord's response. That would prove to be profitable, and show how easily the devil "gets in" and ruins the purity of the church of Christ. The Bible is inerrant, thankfully.

(TMC) @SC âI guess that you might be garbed in Ohio State stuff...â Only if they make OSU jumpers or skirts! Seriously, though, you must see that remaining âgenderlessâ makes it rather frusterating for folks on here to refer to you. You are not a plural, so âtheyâ is improper, as is only using âSCâ all the time. If âitâ was offensive than you really should pick a pronoun that we can use. @John UK Sorry about the link, see if this works:apologetics-notes.comereason.org/2015/12/no-christmas-is-not-based-on-pagan.htmlThe question about Woodrow is a good one to ask. However, archive.org uploaded Wilkinsonâs âAncient Egytiansâ in 2015 and I just got done verifying all of Woodrowâs references to it in that article. What he said is true. If you like, I can give you links to the 3 volumes he referenced so you can check for yourself. As to Christmas not being in the Bible- I think one can make a solid case for there being both warrant and example in Scripture for people setting aside special days to celebrate historical providences of God, like Purim. A good modern example in the UK is âGuy Faulkâs Dayâ and an example on this side of the pond is âThanksgivingâ. Were either of the events these days celebrate greater than the historical event of Christâs coming?

In the same book many RC practices show in existence at that time, as doing penance, the sign of the cross, indirect prayer to saints, and festivities observed around religious days:

" the synod .. celebrated at once the holy services of the mass of St. Columba and St. Baithene, whose festivals occurred on that day"

The paragraph narrating Columba's death, shows the distinction they made between the Sabbath and the Lord's day:

"During the paschal solemnities in the month of April now past ... while he was celebrating the solemn offices of the Mass as usual on the Lord's day,and after an interval of six days from that time, .. he departed to the Lord on the night of the Lord's day. In the end, then, of this same week, that is on the day of the Sabbath .."

"This day in the Holy Scriptures is called the Sabbath, which means rest. And this day is indeed a Sabbath to me, for it is the last day of my present laborious life, and on it I rest after the fatigues of my labours; and this night at midnight, which commences the solemn Lord's Day, I shall, according to the sayings of Scripture, go the way of our fathers. For already my Lord Jesus Christ deigns to invite me; and to Him, I say, in the middle of this night shall I depart, at His invitation"

s c wrote:--As far as the "sabbath"- Christ is our Sabbath but many want to follow after the shadows or try to insist that our sabbath day changed. ...another topic

What do you do with the 4th commandment? Ignore it altogether and pretend it was not part of the moral law?

As for something having to be commanded before it being done, assuming that your gender marries, did you marry? If so, was it in church? If so, how do you justify that?

In John 10. 22, 23 we read of Jesus attending the feast of dedication (now know as Hanukkah). Can you please show me where the Jews were commanded to observe this feast?

Also in the law of Moses, the commanded annual day of atonement was observed with fasting. However, other uncommanded fast days were observed in the fourth month, fifth month, seventh month, and tenth month. These added fast days were not unacceptable to the Lord. On the contrary God promised to bless his people in that he would turn these fast days into feast days! (Zech 8.19)

My post aimed to clarify the issue of the 'pagan' roots of the season, of what the mistletoe is an additional clue.

Reading 'The Life of Columba' written about a hundred years after Columba died in 597 AD, by a close successor of his, one can verify that the religious service called the mass existed before if was defined as a dogma in 1215.

The terms by which such religious service is described are sacrifice, consecrate, offices, offered, Eucharist & mysteries, which obviously infer much more than a remembrance:

".. on the Lord's day âŠ a priest celebrated the holy mysteries of the Eucharist .. to perform the solemn offices of the Mass"

"Here is wine ... for the celebration of His mysteries"

On an dispute, a saint is reported saying:".. the clean mysteries of the holy sacrifice are offered .."

Another narrative continues as"For next Lord's day, being invited by the saint .. to consecrate the Body of Christ, he asked the saint to join him, that, .. they might break the bread of the Lord together"

Reporting a miracle the book tells:"This very book lay in the water from the Feast of the Nativity of our Lord till the end of the Paschal season"