The Sorrow seems to be very focus on hunting all castoffs because they are "causing sorrow by using the tides", a few hundred or thousand people who can do the Jedi mindtrick from time to time. Considering that in the world of Numenera there were millions of years of genocide, war, time paradoxes, and immortal beings of inconceivable power, the transgressions of the whole castoff business seem ridiculously minor. What is the Numenera world explanation of the Sorrow?

acm wrote:The Sorrow seems to be very focus on hunting all castoffs because they are "causing sorrow by using the tides", a few hundred or thousand people who can do the Jedi mindtrick from time to time. Considering that in the world of Numenera there were millions of years of genocide, war, time paradoxes, and immortal beings of inconceivable power, the transgressions of the whole castoff business seem ridiculously minor. What is the Numenera world explanation of the Sorrow?

It is pretty straight forward. The Sorrow is a byproduct created by the universe when it is out of flux. This happens when the tide energy is abused, used excessively. It is based on a very old concept similar to yin and yang. The tides them self are based off of chakras. It is really just a new spin on a very old idea (though Adam Heine will refuse to admit it). The creator lives in Thailand and has most likely been influenced by eastern religious beliefs.

The reason why the tidal energy is out of whack is due to the castoffs. Each one survives by using tide energy. That is where their immortality comes from. The Sorrow is trying to consume them in order to regain that energy. It all has a lot to do with entropy as well. Hints why it was originally known as the angel of entropy.

Last edited by anonymous6059 on March 15th, 2017, 4:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

From the game's Story Trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVAMuk-CV18): "Worse yet, by escaping death, the Changing God has awakened an ancient creature known as the Sorrow — a grim guardian of balance with one purpose only: to eradicate the death-cheater and all his cast-offs."

anonymous6059 wrote:It is pretty straight forward. The Sorrow is a byproduct created by the universe when it is out of flux.

My point is that the Numenera world is already pretty much out of flux by itself. The Endless War is endless because of reality-warping machines. I can imagine a fantastic machine like the levy system to be abused to extend a life "illegaly". There are people from different times working at the same shop. I just wonder why the universe doesn't care about the everyday craziness but turns crazy itself for a bit of life extension.

anonymous6059 wrote:This happens when the tide energy is abused, used excessively. It is based on a very old concept similar to yin and yang. The tides them self are based off of chakras. It is really just a new spin on a very old idea (though Adam Heine will refuse to admit it). The creator lives in Thailand and has most likely been influenced by eastern religious beliefs.

The reason why the tidal energy is out of whack is due to the castoffs. Each one survives by using tide energy. That is where their immortality comes from. The Sorrow is trying to consume them in order to regain that energy. It all has a lot to do with entropy as well. Hint why it was originally known as the angel of entropy.

What is the tidal energy then? It is bolted on a system that is pretty agnostic of beliefs. Somehow I remember reading that the tides are only active around Sangus. If it is artificial then why this quasi-divine fuss about it?

Olm wrote:From the game's Story Trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVAMuk-CV18): "Worse yet, by escaping death, the Changing God has awakened an ancient creature known as the Sorrow — a grim guardian of balance with one purpose only: to eradicate the death-cheater and all his cast-offs."

"Creature" means a natural being, like a dragon? How does it relate to tides, and why does it care? There is not really a divine order to keep in the Ninth world.

anonymous6059 wrote:It is pretty straight forward. The Sorrow is a byproduct created by the universe when it is out of flux.

My point is that the Numenera world is already pretty much out of flux by itself. The Endless War is endless because of reality-warping machines. I can imagine a fantastic machine like the levy system to be abused to extend a life "illegaly". There are people from different times working at the same shop. I just wonder why the universe doesn't care about the everyday craziness but turns crazy itself for a bit of life extension.

None of that matters, All that matters is what is using tidal energy. The universe may not have a yin yang force for everything. Time warping has nothing to do with the tide energy. The levies are actually using the energy and life force of the citizens of Sagus Cliffs. All of these things were most likely created or discovered by The Changing God in his attempt to find a way to save his daughter. It wasn't until later that he discovered the Tide energy that worked. The problem of course was The Sorrow. I really think you're just over thinking it. Its just fiction and it doesn't have to make perfect sense.

acm wrote:

anonymous6059 wrote:This happens when the tide energy is abused, used excessively. It is based on a very old concept similar to yin and yang. The tides them self are based off of chakras. It is really just a new spin on a very old idea (though Adam Heine will refuse to admit it). The creator lives in Thailand and has most likely been influenced by eastern religious beliefs.

The reason why the tidal energy is out of whack is due to the castoffs. Each one survives by using tide energy. That is where their immortality comes from. The Sorrow is trying to consume them in order to regain that energy. It all has a lot to do with entropy as well. Hint why it was originally known as the angel of entropy.

What is the tidal energy then? It is bolted on a system that is pretty agnostic of beliefs. Somehow I remember reading that the tides are only active around Sangus. If it is artificial then why this quasi-divine fuss about it?

The tidal energy is a force, maybe like magnetism that just exist. The tides may only be out of balance around Sagus Cliffs because that is where the majority of the Castoffs exist. It is also where The Changing God has been manipulating the tides. Regular people do not manipulate the tides. Its like a human body manipulating magnets. It just doesn't happen. However, The Changing God created these vessels that do manipulate that energy and that is what makes them immortal.

By continuously using this force The Sorrow is provoked. The creature is most likely to attack when a tidal surge has been used. That is why the inhabitants of Miel Avest don't use it and tried to suppress their energy levels. When The Last Castoff was born he provoked The Sorrow by releasing a large about of tidal energy in order to heal his body. He fell from orbit and required quite a lot of Tide juice to survive. This caused a large imbalance which The Sorrow tried to hunt down. Really, it is all pretty straight forward stuff. I don't see where the problem is coming from.

acm wrote:"Creature" means a natural being, like a dragon? How does it relate to tides, and why does it care? There is not really a divine order to keep in the Ninth world.

My guess, the Sorrow is the personification of natural backlash force for breaking the cycle of life and death — that's why it is attracted to the 'Changing God' and his castoffs.

Its correlation to the Tides is collateral: from my point of view, the Tides are like different kinds of 'footprints' on the fabric of reality, and the Sorrow just catches the site of any castoff abusing them faster.

So the tides are something like a spiritual energy? The comparison to magnetism seems a bit off, how do you abuse magnetism? Who will punish you for abusing it? What does "out of balance" mean?

And from a "conservation of energy" standpoint there should be no problem to take life from some to extend others, so there must be something like a moral entity that punishes transfers. That is what I meant by divine order. There must be someone in the world of Numenera who forbits it. Who is it? The Law of Nature? A god?

Sure you can do anything in fiction, it just seems like an odd addition to Numenera. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but this is the very core of the story, and especially the Sorrow should have a clear reason for existence. I have seen the trope of Nature's revenge or what you would call it before, it feels a bit forced here.

acm wrote:So the tides are something like a spiritual energy? The comparison to magnetism seems a bit off, how do you abuse magnetism? Who will punish you for abusing it? What does "out of balance" mean?

Okay. It isn't like a spiritual energy. It is like a real energy, more like the "force" in star wars. It is very much like magnetism because it affects the world in a invisible way. Here just watch this and keep in mind Newton’s Third Law of Motion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LnbyjOyEQ8

acm wrote:
And from a "conservation of energy" standpoint there should be no problem to take life from some to extend others, so there must be something like a moral entity that punishes transfers. That is what I meant by divine order. There must be someone in the world of Numenera who forbits it. Who is it? The Law of Nature? A god?.

I think you might be getting confused here. Only the levies are taking life from someone else to extend others. The Castoffs use the tide energy, not the human lifeforce. You're mixing up two separate things. The reason by the Sorrow appears is because of the amount of tide energy being consumed. It is much like a Law of Nature. The Sorrow isn't even necessarily a sentient creature. It is merely a force that retaliates to the abuse of the tide energy.

OK, I'm confused. So there is a form of energy in a physical sense. Energy can only be transferred, not created or destroyed. What does "tide energy being consumed" mean then? What exactly are the castoffs doing with the energy?
And how does it relate to Yin and Yang? I understand that you have two quantities, and if you increase one the other is reduced. This leads to a drive to balance the quantities again. After night follows day, and so on. It makes sense that the castoffs actions somehow pile up on one side of the scales, but how does it relate to the tides (a single energy)?

My main issue with the role of the Tides is that they don't seem to really fit into Numenéra as a game world. Numenéra is basically science fiction - the original PnP setting tries to skew that a bit into a more pseudo-fantasy gameplay, but in the end, it's made quite obvious that all this fantastic stuff is basically only really advanced and out-of-control technology.
"Yin and yang", "the universe (or even, the Universe) out of balance", and all this, is not science and technology. It's magic and traditional fantasy. And that's why I find it hard to wrap my head around the Sorrow. "This is a natural force that's not been discovered, yet" is fine. But the Tides don't come across as that - they are nebulous mysticism and pseudo-religious karma taking over a scientific setting. I resent that.
Having the Tides play a more prominent role in some of the gadgets of the world, might have been useful there - some of those civilisations using the Tides before, having other "characters" like the Sorrow appear and disappear as a result - in other words: making clear that the Tides are a natural phenomenon that can be used and abused, and that there's a (fictional) scientific reason why certain uses of the Tides create quasi-personalities like the Sorrow, and all this.

Therefore I have sailed the seas and come
To the holy city of Byzantium. -W.B. Yeats

OK, I'm confused. So there is a form of energy in a physical sense. Energy can only be transferred, not created or destroyed. What does "tide energy being consumed" mean then? What exactly are the castoffs doing with the energy?
And how does it relate to Yin and Yang? I understand that you have two quantities, and if you increase one the other is reduced. This leads to a drive to balance the quantities again. After night follows day, and so on. It makes sense that the castoffs actions somehow pile up on one side of the scales, but how does it relate to the tides (a single energy)?

Tide energy being consumed would be no different than how the body turns food into energy. The food is no longer food, it has changed into something else. When the tide energy is used it also is transformed. This transformation is what attracts The Sorrow and it may even be what The Sorrow is made from or feeds off. Of course that isn't Canon and I don't even know if Inxile thought it through to that level. Everytime a castoff dies, uses tidal surge, or any other action that requires the tides (which may be all the time on a very low level) it adds to the imbalance in the scale. When they use a tidal surge it is a big disruption in the energy and this is something like a bleep on a radar that The Sorrow can easily hunt. That is why when you crash landed and used the tide to rebuild your body it caused a tidal surge that attracted The Sorrow.

You're asking questions that really aren't necessary. You could ask all of these questions about "The Force" in Star Wars as well. In the end its just a ficitional idea. It doesn't have to make a ton of sense. However, it does make just as much sense as "The Force" does. You could try to break it down as well, but what would be the point? The general idea is pretty straight forward and easy enough to grasp.

^ this. It's made quite clear in the end game (and by dev comments) that the Sorrow is an artificial construct created by a prior civilization to punish "abuse" of the tides. Apparently, the changing God's activity count as " abuse" per the Sorrow's programming so it hunts him and his castoffs.

What the tides *are* in physics terms is not explained. All this chakra/yin-yang/natural force talk is nonsensical head canon that has been explicitly denied by the developers. You, of course, can believe whatever interpretation you like.

Gondolin wrote:What the tides *are* in physics terms is not explained. All this chakra/yin-yang/natural force talk is nonsensical head canon that has been explicitly denied by the developers. You, of course, can believe whatever interpretation you like.

Yea. I know things don't need an explanation but like... I was kind of expecting an adam eve parallel where like all of the human children in the ninth world are babies from the changing god's self impregnation so the tides are accessible to cast offs as a sort of left over mind control from being inhabited by the changing god. It's the closest cast off's get to being the changing god, and the more they use the tides the less human they become. But nah. That'd be too straight forward.