matteo has repeatedlyaccused dios and me of being the same person, and casually attacks other users for politics they do not hold, including me. In his latest tirade, he calls me a "superhero of bad faith" and suggests that I retire to LGF or FreeRepublic. I'd like to publically ask him to stop. Thanks in advance. posted by monju_bosatsu to Etiquette/Policy at 9:38 AM (181 comments total)

it's simple: dios accused the community very harshly, as he usually does. you passive-aggressively backed him up, as usual. if you don't think we're happy enough for Zarqawi's death, I simply mentioned a few sites where there's more happiness. just that.

also: next time, send me an email. this MeTa callout is as lame as your posts in the blue.
;)posted by matteo at 9:43 AM on June 8, 2006

monju, as someone who has been both charmed and infuriated by you and matteo in the past, I offer some advice: don't let him get to you. or at least don't let him know he has. Rise above it.

and matteo: you write great FPP's and I've respect your commitment and willingness to speak your mind, and when you want to, you can be a true third-degree mensch. But sometimes, your tendency to zoom in on particular users and relentlessly snark at them can be maddening. And to be fair, it's not just you who does it. I've done it a time or two myself, so I'm as guilty as anyone. But it makes us all seem like a bunch of bratty kids on a playground. We're adults, we should be above that kind of shit.posted by jonmc at 9:47 AM on June 8, 2006

you passive-aggressively backed him up, as usual.

I didn't back dios up at all in that thread, and I certainly never called for celebrations of zarqawi's death. You invented that out of whole cloth, and that's exactly the kind of accusation from which I'm politely asking you to refrain.

No chance they're the same. When dios comments with something like a legal opinion it always comes out like a frantically googling layman with poor reasoning skills. Then when monju comes along in the same thread and gives his thoughts it's like an F1 blowing by a riced-out Kia.posted by George_Spiggott at 10:17 AM on June 8, 2006

Last week I wrote a load of nonsense about flags and idiocy; as well as appearing in print, it also turned up on the Guardian's "Comment is Free" blog-o-site, where passersby are encouraged to scrawl their own responses beneath the original article.

Some people disagreed with the piece, some agreed; some found it funny, some didn't. For half a nanosecond I was tempted to join in the discussion. And then I remembered that all internet debates, without exception, are entirely futile. So I didn't.

There's no point debating anything online. You might as well hurl shoes in the air to knock clouds from the sky. The internet's perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain't one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional "live audience" quickly conspire to create a "perfect storm" of perpetual bickering.

Stumble in, take umbrage with someone, trade a few blows, and within about two or three exchanges, the subject itself goes out the window. Suddenly you're simply arguing about arguing. Eventually, one side gets bored, comes to its senses, or dies, and the row fizzles out: just another needless belch in the swirling online guffstorm.

But not for long, because online quarrelling is also addictive, in precisely the same way Tetris is addictive. It appeals to the "lab rat" part of your brain; the annoying, irrepressible part that adores repetitive pointlessness and would gleefully make you pop bubblewrap till Doomsday if it ever got its way. An unfortunate few, hooked on the futile thrill of online debate, devote their lives to its cause. They roam the internet, actively seeking out viewpoints they disagree with, or squat on messageboards, whining, needling, sneering, over-analysing each new proclamation - joylessly fiddling, like unhappy gorillas doomed to pick lice from one another's fur for all eternity.

Still, it's not all moan moan moan in NetLand. There's also the occasional puerile splutter to liven things up.

In the debate sparked by my gibberish outpouring, it wasn't long before rival posters began speculating about the size of their opponent's dicks. It led me to wonder - has the world of science ever investigated a casual link between penis size and male political leaning?

I'd theorise that, on the whole, rightwing penises are short and stubby, hence their owners' constant fury. Lefties, on the other hand, are spoiled for length, yet boast no girth whatsoever - which explains their pained confusion. I flit from one camp to the other, of course, which is why mine's so massive it's got a full-size human knee in the middle. And a back. A big man's back.

Anyway, if we must debate things online, we might as well debate that. It's not like we'll ever resolve any of that other bullshit, is it?

Click. Mine's bigger than yours. Click. No it isn't. Click. Yes it is. Click. Refresh, repost, repeat to fade.posted by Heatwole at 10:21 AM on June 8, 2006 [1 favorite]

matteo gets brought into Metatalk all the time, and as far as I know he's never been banned or changed his behavior. It would probably have been better for you to just email him.posted by delmoi at 10:21 AM on June 8, 2006

At this point, we've jumped the shark and dived below Ceiling Cat.posted by fandango_matt at 10:29 AM on June 8, 2006

Doesn't the hand-wringing here (not just this thread in particular, but most of the callouts and petty Mefi slap fights) get tiring?

I am absolutely convinced that there are two people sharing the Matteo account. One spews bile in the political threads. The other crafts absolutely magnificent FPPs abouts arts and culture. Matteo 2 is one of my very favorite MeFites.posted by LarryC at 10:42 AM on June 8, 2006

Besides his very well done FPPs, who gives a shit what he says?posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:29 AM on June 8, 2006

If I had any doubts before this thread appeared, they have vanished: monju_bosatsu = dios. Of course, as I've said before, true or not, I choose to believe.posted by MrMoonPie at 11:32 AM on June 8, 2006

That's what I'm thinking. I guess I just don't have the skills. Is there a workshop I can take?posted by StickyCarpet at 11:44 AM on June 8, 2006

At this point, we've jumped the shark and dived below Ceiling Cat.

Nah, we're riding the shark as it jumps into the Ceiling Cat's hole in the ceiling, eats the Ceiling Cat, gets stuck in the hole, shits out the pissing elephant he ate earlier in a bid to escape, then falls out of the ceiling hole and onto the copulating/vomit eating dog couple, killing them. And then he rides off into the sunset on a recumbant bicycle.posted by jack_mo at 11:45 AM on June 8, 2006

How come *I* never get into fights on Mefi? Honest question.

I told everyone to leave you alone, lest they damage your fretting fingers or singing voice. Now get back to work, songmonkey.posted by cortex at 11:46 AM on June 8, 2006

Speaking of which - when is the album going to be finished? I'm eager to get mine. (obvious response: Oh you'll get yours, fucker, you'll get yours.)posted by Ryvar at 11:55 AM on June 8, 2006

Just to clarify, I don't mean a history of good FPP justifies, validates, or excuses shitty behavior, but rather that matteo's comments are like a urine soaked panhandler screaming at the newspaper box that seems to have done him wrong. Quicken pace, breathe through mouth, and don't look back.

And goodnewsfortheinsane: Your name is too friggin' long. No way am I gonna give myself carpal tunnel just to put you in your place.

[Shoves Ryvar and jonmc]

Any other members with 5 characters or less in their names want some?
C'mon! I got enough to go 'round!posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:58 AM on June 8, 2006

Alvy, I'm gonna take this right foot, and I'm gonna whop you on that side of your face... and you wanna know something? There's not a damn thing you're gonna be able to do about it.

*whirls into slo-mo action*

One tin soldier rides awaaay...posted by jonmc at 12:03 PM on June 8, 2006

Hey fuck off, man. At least you can have the same nick for both MeFi and gmail. Me and jonmc? "SIX LETTERS OR MORE, BITCH"posted by Ryvar at 12:04 PM on June 8, 2006

monju, what was the purpose of your 'What' comment? It seems to me matteo read your comment exactly the way it was intended: as an agreement and restatement of dios' post. How is this not the case?

As for the public callout, if you want mathowie to give somebody a time out this isn't the way to go about it. You have to be more direct and state your intentions plainly. This just comes off as theatrics.posted by nixerman at 12:08 PM on June 8, 2006

We jump the shark regularly. I think it is about an 8-month cycle.

"Observe," continued I, "This Thread! From the gateway, This Thread, there runneth a long eternal site backwards: behind us lieth an eternity.

Must not whatever can run its course of all things, have already run along that site? Must not whatever can happen of all things have already happened, resulted, and gone by?

And if everything has already existed, what thinkest thou, dwarf, of This Thread? Must not this gateway also—have already existed?

And are not all things closely bound together in such wise that This Thread draweth all coming things after it? Consequently—itself also?

For whatever can run its course of all things, also in this long lane outward—must it once more run!—"

What sort of powers would a "superhero of bad faith" have, anyway?posted by mr_crash_davis at 12:16 PM on June 8, 2006

monju, what was the purpose of your 'What' comment? It seems to me matteo read your comment exactly the way it was intended: as an agreement and restatement of dios' post.

The only purpose of my comment was to question bshort's claim that everybody who had commented at that point in the thread was "very happy" about Zarqawi's death, a claim clearly contradicted by the comments themselves. I took no position on and certainly did not restate dios' complaints.
As for the public callout, if you want mathowie to give somebody a time out this isn't the way to go about it. You have to be more direct and state your intentions plainly.

I'm not asking for a timeout for anybody. My intentions, I thought, were perfectly plain: I'd like matteo to refrain from attacking me for no good reason.posted by monju_bosatsu at 12:19 PM on June 8, 2006

God, come on the monju = dios theory is idiotic. Monju is way smarter then Dios.posted by delmoi at 12:19 PM on June 8, 2006

I'm not asking for a timeout for anybody. My intentions, I thought, were perfectly plain: I'd like matteo to refrain from attacking me for no good reason.

Still, you could have privately emailed him, sparing all of us needless drama.posted by delmoi at 12:20 PM on June 8, 2006

I would like to stop the sun from rising in the west and setting in the east, but I don't think that's very likely, either.

. . . until THE MACHINE kicks in, at least.posted by Ryvar at 12:23 PM on June 8, 2006

Note to self: Start picking fights with members who aren't actually present in the thread.posted by Alvy Ampersand at 12:24 PM on June 8, 2006

you could have privately emailed him, sparing all of us needless drama.

But that would've robbed some of us of opportunites to create refreshing comedy.posted by jonmc at 12:24 PM on June 8, 2006

Chuckles, some jobs are just too big for the self-police.

And sometimes the self-police are on their break.

And other times the self-police are just too busy putting squirrels down their pants for the purposes of gambling, and besides, look at how he was dressed, he was clearly asking for it, and sorry, that's not my department, my shift was over fifteen minutes ago and I have two days left 'til retirement, so I ain't getting involved, man.posted by Alvy Ampersand at 12:29 PM on June 8, 2006

Note to self: Start picking fights with members who aren't actually present in the thread.

I dunno, man, at your weight class you might want to stick with people who aren't even on the site.

See, StickyCarpet? That's how you start a fightposted by Ryvar at 12:29 PM on June 8, 2006

For the past two months, I've been having a lurk-vendetta with another user. I can't say who as I've no doubt already placed my victory in jeopardy by even mentioning it in the first place.posted by robocop is bleeding at 12:40 PM on June 8, 2006

Serious question: Where's ParisParamus? People have dropped hints that he was banned. Is that so? My irony meter doesn't work here any more, like the rad-suited technician whose Geiger counter isn't calibrated for overwhelming gamma rays at ground zero and mistakes the irritating "pish-pish-pish" noise for situation normal.

Cuz if you aren't gonna close stupid threads like this Matthew H., I'm gonna try and get some anwers dammit.posted by bardic at 12:57 PM on June 8, 2006

Yes, what's the deal with the PP-ban-stuff? I asked in an earlier thread and got no answer.posted by sonofsamiam at 12:59 PM on June 8, 2006

People have dropped hints that he was banned. Is that so?

He's banned, I know that much (he hangs out in #tapes). I can't remember why off the top of my head.posted by Ryvar at 1:01 PM on June 8, 2006

Sorry, I'm late. Is there any gnfti left? I had to find my boots. Yeah, my mom was washing them again or some shit. No, I don't want any dios. Monju who? What? What the hell kinda name is that? It sounds like a fungal infection. Hoooooly fuck! There's jonmc! What a phlegmfucking shitcrunker!! Yeah, it's fucking on! *cracks jonmc over the skull with nunchuks*posted by loquacious at 1:10 PM on June 8, 2006

*rubs steel cranium, grabs loquo's nunchucks and begins munching and spitting*posted by jonmc at 1:11 PM on June 8, 2006

But not for long, because online quarrelling is also addictive, in precisely the same way Tetris is addictive. It appeals to the "lab rat" part of your brain; the annoying, irrepressible part that adores repetitive pointlessness and would gleefully make you pop bubblewrap till Doomsday if it ever got its way.

Bullshit. I've had my mind changed repeatedly by the debate on this site, and I strongly believe that I've changed a few minds with my own words. The persistence of users who oxymoronically argue online that arguing online is pointless puzzles me.posted by squirrel at 2:40 PM on June 8, 2006

I agree with squirrel. Until yesterday, I never thought ramming my dick into a chicken carcass could feel so good.

Ortho I believe still frequents MetaChat, along with McGraw, Alex Reynolds, and some other former MeFites. MetaChat is kind of the Siberia of Metafilter. If Siberia had lots of mixed drinks and funny jokes and hot smart women and . . . actually this is not a good metaphor at all.posted by LarryC at 3:14 PM on June 8, 2006

And pictures of people's cats. Don't forget the cats.posted by Gamblor at 3:17 PM on June 8, 2006

I like getting fucked in the ass. matteo will do in a pinch.posted by mischief at 3:19 PM on June 8, 2006

I thought MeCha was like the Prisoner. You wake up one day, can't log into Mefi, your computer shoots sleeping gas into your face, and you wake up on an island with a number of other outcasts wearing retro clothing and indulging in psychoactive drugs.posted by boo_radley at 3:46 PM on June 8, 2006

cortex, you have 6 letters in your name, get the hell out of the line.
tex can stay, though.

Why do I suddenly feel like the panicky woman in Airplane!?posted by Alvy Ampersand at 4:21 PM on June 8, 2006

My cat's not so bright. She doesn't hang out in the ceiling, but you can find her sitting in the toiletbowl from time to time.

As a preschool teacher I can say with some authority that whining in public "MATTEO BIT ME! MATTEO, STOP BITING ME!" rarely works. Sure, you might avoid a direct attack for a few minutes, but in half an hour when you've gone to the playground, he's gonna throw sand in your hair.posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:41 PM on June 8, 2006

It's a shame this thread devolved so quickly and completely into lookitme grabassery. There was a point, and a good one. I've been on the receiving end of the matteoian spittle-spray too, and it is bewildering and unpleasant.

Yeah, it's real shame we didn't have yet another dios gang versus matteo crew throwdown. That would have been peachy.

As opposed to another thread full of 'haha I'm teh funney!!!'? Bit of a wash, actually.

Actually, a third way is possible between sprays of vitriol and chuckleheadery. But it becomes less frequently seen as time goes on.posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:00 PM on June 8, 2006

Well, this was a fun thread.
Ah well.

I'm not sure I get you, stavros.

The point was pretty obvious and this thread is still open to new comments. Anyone who agrees with monju is free to chime in, as some have, but aside from saying 'Me too', I don't know what result or concensus you expected to arise from this.

Matteo, for whatever reason, consistently acts like a jerk.
Everyone knows that, even the folks who chided m_b for making this post didn't even bother mustering up a token defense for him.

That's not to say monju shouldn't have made this post; if I read his motives right*, this is a kind of Brand New Day meets Drawing a Line in the Sand, and possibly people will be less willing to give matteo a free pass when he does what he does.

At the very least, monju's on the record as saying he's sick of that shit, and can't be accused of not making an effort to end it.

It's a shame this thread devolved so quickly and completely into lookitme grabassery. There was a point, and a good one. I've been on the receiving end of the matteoian spittle-spray too, and it is bewildering and unpleasant.

Look, stav, I do sympathize because I've been on the receiving end of a pathetic net.vendetta as well (Rothko), but there really would not be any point in holding a hatefest on matteo. He's a dick, and he's a short-sighted dick too passionately in hate with dios to ever let up or admit when dios is right. But the simple fact is that you and me ruminating about this accomplishes nothing. Matteo skirts the edge of the vendetta-limit around here, and he skirts it expertly, and he makes some amazing FPPs. Also, matteo has a bit of a posse because dios occasionally points out things which are inconvenient to those of us with a leftist ideology, and does so in an infuriating manner.

Because of all these things it is unlikely that matteo will ever be banned. The only thing you can hope for is that someday he'll calm down - I used to skirt the edges of what was acceptable around here myself, you might recall (I came damn close to a temp-ban a couple times, particularly that thread where I learned how to post as mathowie), and I had to grow out of it (at least somewhat). Hopefully matteo will as well.

This business with monju is just him attacking someone associated with dios, and monju gets a free pass to call it out because unlike dios he's fairly non-controversial and stays above the verbal mosh pit.

I don't know if this is the type of post you were looking for, but you'll notice that it doesn't help the situation. The situation is probably not going to be helped, ever, merely endured. I don't think this is really all that tragic, though, because I talked to dios in #mefi for a couple years and I'm pretty sure he can take it.

All this being the case, fuck another thread of "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition" - praise the ceiling cat and pass the bong.posted by Ryvar at 6:25 PM on June 8, 2006

Because of all these things it is unlikely that matteo will ever be banned.

And THAT is precisely what this thread WASN'T about. Like most self-policing efforts, IMHO, this thread was started so that perhaps enough members of this community would chime in and agree that perhaps matteo is getting too personal, vindictive, and needs to cool down on his own terms.

Sadly, I've been here long enough to know that matteo has a propensity to pick on anyone who doesn't strictly adhere to his point of view and takes thing too far all the time. I also know that this behavior won't stop (IMHO ever) because he's too arrogant and there's no real incentive to change.

Of course, now that I've outed myself as one that doesn't really appreciate matteo's contributions, I'm probably on his list.posted by SeizeTheDay at 6:35 PM on June 8, 2006

Oh, I don't want anybody banned, Ryvar. But one of Metatalk's stated purposes is to point out and talk about issues of etiquette (preferably without shitting on each others' heads about it), and that's what this is (giving monju (whose contributions to the site I also appreciate) the benefit of the doubt about his intentions).

I don't know if this is the type of post you were looking for, but you'll notice that it doesn't help the situation.

As I've said many times before, I believe that it is a mistake to seek output or resolution from discussion. It is the process itself that should be the focus -- it is an end in itself.

Hmm. Well, I suppose c counts, because he (or she) has actually made commets, one as recently as June 1 of this year. Sorry I didn't recognize you, c.

However, b has never made any comments, and a only has made two - at least that's what his/her profile says, although there's no record of them otherwise. Methinks that a was some kind of test or joke username.

And I'm not as obsessive/compulsive as I used to be to test all the other letters. Looks like a job for one of the rest of you.posted by yhbc at 7:39 PM on June 8, 2006

e, h, i, n, o, v, x, and z all members since: December 23, 2001
2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 all members since: December 23, 2001. Only 6 has made a comment (on December 24th).
f, t, w and y all members since: April 13, 2001
f, t and y each made 1 MetaTalk comment but no idea what they were.
Yes, I have too much time on my hands.posted by tellurian at 9:56 PM on June 8, 2006

dios=monju_bosatsu?

It's so easy to get confused on these issues. Here I thought dios was Seth.

~chuckle~

I too have been on the receiving end of the occasional criticism from matteo. I can only be thankful, I suppose, that I escaped being called the dreaded "superhero of bad faith".

One can only pray the recent recipient of that terrible insult will eventually recover, if only partially.

And "casually attacking others for politics they don't hold"? Horrors. Casually attacking. Casually. Yikes. That must sting. And "...for politics they don't hold..." How hurtful it must be that noone really believes the endless protests about how they are really, really *not* as goofy politically as their own posts indicate.

Frankly, I'll take matteo's forthrightedness and passion any day over the mealy-mouthed swill we get here from political partisans who spend half their time protesting that they are really, really not political partisans, despite all evidence to the contrary.

matteo isn't always right, but he was exactly right on this particular issue: one Mefite was as usual, whining in his usual intellectually dishonest way, derailing yet another thread, and his/her buddy was, as usual, there to pick the tiniest nits in support, both protesting mightily as usual that they're both completely misunderstood by all.

But monju, let's talk frankly. Your feelings have been hurt. Sorry about that. But instead of handling this little tantrum the correct way - on your own, you chose to try to get a little posse together to do things for you. You wanted to make your request "publically".

Well, since we're all so sort of *public* on this stuff now, here's a *public* request for you:

You and dios take the duplicate sides of your mouths you both talk out of "publically" and constantly here, and trade them for thicker fucking dermises. You'll both be happier, and the rest of us won't have to put up with this kind of lame bullshit again.

I just want to state that I and Scarabic are the same person: he's Paris, I'm Paramus. Together we are Quonsar!

Oh and by the way, I must proudly acknowledge that I am a partisan for the Surprise Party.posted by davy at 10:59 PM on June 8, 2006

And I am a proud partisan of the Pity Party.posted by gsteff at 11:03 PM on June 8, 2006

You know, foldy, until that last comment I had always had respect for you, because I thought your positions were ones based on conscience and an attempt (possibly overweening) at virtue.

But unless I'm missing something here, you've joined the forces of I-don't-care-what-he-does-as-long-as-our-politics-agree, here. That way danger lies. Not that you should care much, but it makes me a little sad.

Like I said, I could be missing something, because I really only pay any attention to the Personality Wars here when someone steps directly on my dick, but: bummer.posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 11:08 PM on June 8, 2006

But instead of handling this little tantrum the correct way...

What's "the correct way"? Lots of people think he should have e-mailed matteo. I don't. In most online forums, it's considered a rude escalation to carry public arguments into private e-mail. That's how I feel — and if someone has a problem with me, I'd rather they air a MeTa than pollute my mailbox.

"What happens on MetaFilter should stay on MetaFilter." Something like that.

As regards "I-don't-care-what-he-does-as-long-as-our-politics-agree": I just got flamed in the Ann Coulter thread because I criticized an article that lied about her. In other words, it's OK to claim that Rick Santorum joined the Ku Klux Klan — because even though it isn't true, we don't like Rick Santorum. And y'know, I wasn't the least bit surprised; because in my experience, that tone is about par for politics on MetaFilter.

The shame of it is that we have some brilliant members — Bugbread, Ethereal Bligh, KlangKlangston, etc. — and if it weren't for a persistent contingent who dilutes every political thread, we could have some real heavyweight conversations.posted by cribcage at 11:25 PM on June 8, 2006

"Persistent Contingent" is so going to be the name of my next band.posted by kindall at 11:29 PM on June 8, 2006

That's a grea Charlie Brooker quote.posted by seanyboy at 12:12 AM on June 9, 2006

You shouldn't be surprised, stav. I too have hard-won respect for foldy, but he's always been part of the as-long-as-our-politics-agree camp—I don't recall his ever criticizing someone in the lefty/antiwar camp. Frankly, I'm surprised he goes so far as to admit that "matteo isn't always right," but maybe being on the receiving end of the occasional spray of spittle lets him see that. Anyway, it's a given that he'd be automatically against the people matteo is against. In a way I've been sorry to see him around so little recently, but it's been a relief not to have those endless ~sneering~ comments; too bad matteo felt the need to pick up the slack (though using blunter, heavier instruments). Heigh-ho, so it goes.posted by languagehat at 5:52 AM on June 9, 2006

I'm flattered, cribcage. You should include yourself.

Personally, I was very surprised to see any attack on monju. Monju's one of the most mild mannered, reasonable people here. That monju could be perceived as one of "the enemy" merely because of occasionally defending dios is...sad. Really, really sad. I wouldn't have expected it from almost anyone here, not even matteo.posted by Ethereal Bligh at 6:07 AM on June 9, 2006

Not that you should care much, but it makes me a little sad.

and

That monju could be perceived as one of "the enemy" merely because of occasionally defending dios is...sad. Really, really sad.

Part of me wants to agree with you two and part of me wants to roll my eyes and say "Oh, teh drama . . . " [sic]posted by Ryvar at 6:24 AM on June 9, 2006

*beats his breast, rends his sackcloth, slaps ash on his brow*

Like I said, it's all good fun and not large. I have a worrying and painfully uncool tendency to blurt out how I actually feel at any given moment about stuff, I know this. Make fun of me as you will. It's all good.posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:32 AM on June 9, 2006

foldy, my man, with all due respect: yeah, there's worse things than having having your beliefs misrepresented in an online forum. There are also worse physical ailments than hemmorhoids. I can still do without it.

I've said it before, many of us who dislike dios' politics sometimes defend him when he's getting piled on simply because pile-ons (especially when done with the type of relish one often sees here) can be rather sickening to watch, even if the pile-onee brings it on himself to an extent. (and, yes, I've been a torch-and-pitchfork bearer myself, just to pre-empt hypocrisy accusations).posted by jonmc at 6:58 AM on June 9, 2006

I too have hard-won respect for foldy, but he's always been part of the as-long-as-our-politics-agree camp—I don't recall his ever criticizing someone in the lefty/antiwar camp.

Actually, I've seen foldy refer to the former Soviet Union as an 'evil empire,' and passionately renounce those who use violence in the name of left-wing causes when others twist themselves into lexical pretzels trying to defend it. I don't always agree with him, but he's more consistent and cleareyed than most.posted by jonmc at 7:02 AM on June 9, 2006

fuckos

What a rip-off. These are just cheerios with little oat wangs mixed in.posted by sonofsamiam at 7:13 AM on June 9, 2006

Thanks to everybody for their comments, both positive, negative, and "teh funny." As I noted above, my purpose in this post was not to seek a ban or timeout for matteo, but rather to ask matteo himself to cool it. I also aimed to provoke discussion on whether there are any enforceable community norms for discussion here. I'm glad to see that at least some of you think that there should be, apart from growing "thicker fucking dermises."

Why didn't you just email matteo?

I chose to post this issue in MeTa for several reasons. First, this is one of the things for which MeTa was designed; we have an "etiquette" category for a reason. The specific issue I confronted in my post is matteo's behavior, and as is clear from many of the comments here, I'm not the only one that thinks his behavior is out of line. That makes it an appropriate issue for public discussion. Implicit in that issue is the question of enforceable community norms, which I raised above. Without public community discussion, there can't be any consensus built on those community norms.

Second, most of the public forums in which I've participated discourage private email. As cribcage noted above, in many communities it's considered rude to escalate issues from the board to private email. It allows members to present two faces: one in public and one in private. Again, there's a reason we have an "etiquette" category here.

Third, I didn't think private email would be a particularly effective way to attempt to solve the problem with matteo. I was right:

I probably should have emailed matteo to alert him that I had posted this issue, but I had--and have--no desire to discuss the issue privately. matteo visits MeTa often enough that I wasn't concerned that he might miss an opportunity to respond. Moroever, matteo obviously thinks I cooked up this post with dios, which is wrong. There's no conspiracy, and I didn't discuss either the Zarqawi thread or this post with dios. Of course, that won't change his mind.

Why don't you just grow a "thicker fucking dermis?"

My dermis is plenty fucking thick. In my profession I deal with assholes all the time, and occasionally I have to be one myself. I have no problem enduring the occasional barb from an adversary, and in fact, I'm proud to say that a particular prominent Texas plaintiff's lawyer called me a "belligerant fucking mongrel."

But MetaFilter isn't litigation, and matteo isn't my adversary. I rarely discuss politics here, and with the occasional exception in MetaTalk, I rarely defend dios--certainly not on any substantive issues. There's no reason for matteo to be hostile, and I think our community should have higher standards for our discussion here. I'm glad to see that some of you agree with me. I don't think the stakes involved here are particularly high, and I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. That doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss issues which have an impact on the tenor of our discussions.

MetaFilter is a classic inward-facing community, with its own norms, in-jokes, and insular politics. In that kind of environment, it's easy for unchecked aggression to escalate, and the community begins to value and justify having a "thick fucking dermis." There's no reason it has to be that way, and I'd prefer a MetaFilter that's a little more welcoming of reasonable discussion without the added spittle.posted by monju_bosatsu at 7:24 AM on June 9, 2006 [1 favorite]

Actually, I've seen foldy refer to the former Soviet Union as an 'evil empire,' and passionately renounce those who use violence in the name of left-wing causes

Yes, and that's one of the reasons I have such respect for him. I'd still be astonished to see him turn his withering ~sarcasm~ on any of the usual lefty suspects here. (Note for the simple of mind: if I had to characterize myself on the simpleminded lefty-righty spectrum, I'd wind up on the lefty side; like jonmc and others, I am particularly annoyed by failures of good sense and common courtesy on the part of my supposed allies.)posted by languagehat at 7:31 AM on June 9, 2006

Good on ya, monju. I was bummed when you decided to take a break back when, as you know, and pleased when you decided to come back, and worried that (like so many good people who have left Metafilter because the nasty stupid shit just wasn't worth it to them) this latest might incline you bail out again.

Better to stay and make better than give up and leave. As is Metafilter, so is America (or wherever you love).

There's heaps of bad here, and some days are worse than others, but I still think that the good outweighs. I hope.posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:32 AM on June 9, 2006

I'd still be astonished to see him turn his withering ~sarcasm~ on any of the usual lefty suspects here.

Especially since I'm beginning to think that humiliation of the type caused by withering sarcasm and mean-spirited name calling makes people dig their heels in deeper and makes their politics more extreme in an 'I'll show them!' type of way. Just a theory.posted by jonmc at 7:48 AM on June 9, 2006

Oh Stav - I tease because I love, but you knew that.

Here are some haikus I wrote for you:

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥

The smell of duct tape
Pants wrapped around your ankles
A slight concussion

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥

Inside your colon
I am finally at peace
Until the police

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥

Cop's blinding flashlight
Or am I squinting my eyes
Against the future

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥

Inside the prison
With Bob and Bubba again
They share a brief glance

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥

Up against the bars
Pounded by the irony
And sold for some hash

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥

Though I miss some things
No man can take away love
Nor my chickenlust

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥

I hope you'll respond to these haikus with a love equal to that in which they were written.

Yeah, it was impolite to post that email message, but I'm glad monju did. It tells us a lot about matteo's character.posted by Ethereal Bligh at 9:47 AM on June 9, 2006

monju, give it a rest. I'm all for community norms and higher discussion standards but this callout is bullshit and I think everybody knows it at this point. matteo is overly abrasive and he should tone it down but his behavior isn't worthy of these theatrics. Frankly, (1) his "latest tirade" isn't a tirade at all (2) he was responding to some pretty heavy bullshit spouted at dios which you did seem to be backing up with your oh-so-innocent "What?" comment (3) matteo's comments to you, while puerile and worthless, are simply too few and too stupid to constitute any sort of harassment. It's not as if matteo is trolling in threads and wiping out whole discussions like somebody else we know. This is not a community problem it's a matteo-monju-dios problem and your attempt to make it a community problem won't help anybody. If you really can't bear any more of his comments then kill-file him.posted by nixerman at 9:53 AM on June 9, 2006

day 12044 in the Metatalk Brother house. 11.38 am. dios is still in the bedroom. matteo is feeding the chickins. stavros and jonmc and other random usernames appearing in this thread have joined the other housemates in the pool. monju is in the diary room.

voice of Metatalk Brother: hello monju, how are you today?

monju: matteo has repeatedly accused dios and me of being the same person, and casually attacks other users for politics they do not hold, including me. In his latest tirade, he calls me a "superhero of bad faith" and suggests that I retire to LGF or FreeRepublic. I'd like to publically ask him to stop. Thanks in advance.

MB: [silence]

monju: [silence]

MB: I'm afraid Metatalk Brother cannot help you with that, monju. You need to talk to matteo directly.

monju: I didn't think private talk in front of 20 cameras going live to 12 million viewers would be a particularly effective way to attempt to solve the problem with matteo. I need you to call matteo in the diary room and tell him what I told you, and it needs to be re-broadcasted in this evening's outtakes.

MB: I'm afraid Metatalk Brother cannot help you with that, monju.

monju: [silence]

MB: [silence]

monju: ok. can I have another packet of cigarettes at least, please?

MB: I'm afraid Metatalk Brother cannot help you with that, monju. Ask matteo, he has some left.

jonmc: unsurprisingly, that's already been done. In the interest of cultural studies on the mating behaviour of reality tv contestants, exhaustive academic commentary here, from "Ewww. I think I may be turning Victorian" onwards.

I was not thinking of that though, I swear. The pool is just the metaphorical manifestation of the Metatalk collective spirit that has spoken in this thread. No wank floating in there. Just crystal clear waters!posted by funambulist at 1:12 PM on June 9, 2006

Because revealing an email that contains nothing of arguably private nature is exactly the same as deliberately revealing private disclosures...posted by cortex at 2:16 PM on June 9, 2006

I would like to publicly call out Jonmc, for daring to live near Jersey and like it, (bad form old, bean) we can have none of that, now can we?

If, that is, you subscribe that such email is not ever to be made public, a concept to which I absolutely do NOT subscribe. You mail it, expect it to be posted as I do.posted by mischief at 3:26 PM on June 9, 2006

Oh, granted. I wouldn't for a minute assume that any email I sent would be kept private. But that's a contentious issue—a lot of folks will feel that in general it ought to be kept private, so the etiquette, if not the law (there is none), is sticky.posted by cortex at 3:29 PM on June 9, 2006

Thus the lameness of this instance of posting an email is frittered away with general mooing about the nature of email privacy. Who're the apologists, here?posted by fleacircus at 5:15 PM on June 9, 2006

Actually, I was arguing for the legitimacy of ascribing lameness to email-posting in general, even if I don't hold to that belief myself. This instance of posting, however, is about the least lame etiquette violation I could imagine.posted by cortex at 5:37 PM on June 9, 2006

Is anyone surprised by that e-mail?
Seriously?
Honestly?
For true?

When folks were telling m_b to take it to mail, I was this close to posting what I imagined matteo's response - assuming he'd deign to do so - would be.

Either I'm a freakin' psychic genius, or matteo is a hell of a lot more boring and sadly predictable than I imagined. I'm starting to think that the one thing he can do with any flair or originality is make FPPs.
He's Rainman with <a href> tags.

It's hardly the invasion of privacy or violation of tust that Hat Maui tries to make it out to be if the divulged information confirms exactly what everyone already knew.

Hat Maui gets a free RC Cola for making me laugh, though.
Tell us more about classy, respectful conduct, you paragon, you.posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:04 PM on June 9, 2006

Alvy &,

i thought that including "ps i am incontinent" would mean that even the thickest mefites would understand that i was not entirely serious. i tend to agree with the seeming consensus here -- monju's reprinting that particular email is not some egregious violation or anything, but in general it would be bad form, if not bad faith, to reprint people's private emails here.

i'll grant it's also possible that maybe the smile on my face as i typed 'ps i am incontinent' didn't translate in the comment. will you believe me now when i tell you i meant that mostly for chuckles?

i thought that including "ps i am incontinent" would mean that even the thickest mefites would understand that i was not entirely serious.

Well, it could mean that, or it could mean that your opinion of monju is so low that you're willing to make poop jokes in his name, or &c.posted by cortex at 7:33 PM on June 9, 2006

actually, i was thinking of urinary incontinence.posted by Hat Maui at 7:37 PM on June 9, 2006

six of one, half-dozen of t'otherposted by cortex at 7:45 PM on June 9, 2006

they're really much different. one is much easier to conceal and clean. the other, despite its unpleasantness, lends a kind of 'fuck it, i'll just crap right here' freedom that is stamped out of most of us at the time of toilet training.posted by Hat Maui at 8:12 PM on June 9, 2006

wasn't talking to you there, Ampersand, but to answer your question, no you cannot read my mind.

and monju, that picture is awesome and relevant. nice one.posted by Hat Maui at 10:22 PM on June 9, 2006

Urm, I was just kidding and riffing off of you and cortex's 'poo incontinence vs pee incontinence' thing, as though which type actually didmake a difference to me.

Like you said, I thought that even the thickest mefite would understand that I was not entirely serious.
I considered putting a :) at the end, but was worried about coming off as condescending. What's your advice for getting past that?posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:45 PM on June 9, 2006

i dunno, it just felt like it might have been attacking based on other posts you've made toward me in the recent.

now i see that it isn't and it's funny.

in conclusion: sometimes only an emoticon will do.posted by Hat Maui at 10:51 PM on June 9, 2006

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