But as I've been saying, a greater sense of accountability doesn't turn Bargnani into a different person, which seems to be what some are expecting. Maturity isn't going to suddenly make defense instinctual, for him. It's not going to make him into a workhorse on the boards.

When you mature you do become a different person. Changes vary person to person. I've seen some people totally transform into things I'd never expect, good and bad. That's life, people change. Carter was the ultimate slasher in his best years in Toronto and then later he changed and fell in love with his jump shot and arguably turned into a less effective player. People change and their games change all the time.

Yeah, because there are zero cases on players breaking out later in their careers... He has lots of natural talent. If he works hard he'll become a competent defender and rebounder. No one should expect him to be a lockdown defender. Most players in the league aren't lockdown defenders. The standards for him should be no higher than anyone else. So far he hasn't met that standard. No one has held him to those standards though. Let's see this year...

Tim W. wrote:

And I have no doubt we'll see improvements for Bargnani. Hearing that he's working hard is encouraging. But, again, it's not going to turn him into a player he simply is not.

He doesn't need to be a lockdown defender and rebounder. All he needs to do is become competent in those two areas and then he's not his teammate's liability in their court.

I am sort of confused by this discussion. Bargs could improve or he could not, the fact is that right now he is good value for his contract. If he started averaging 9 rebounds a game, playing good D, and improved his scoring efficiency he would be worth significantly more than his contract, and in fact would probably by a max type guy.

Right now Bargs is owed $42 million over the next four years. That's $42 million for a 7 footer who plays average man D, spreads the floor well with his shooting, can play either the 5 or 4, and is still only 26. To put that in perspective, DeAndre Jordan, who will never be anywhere near the offensive player Bargs is and is basically on the same level as Amir Johnson at the moment (Shout out Tim W's blog) is getting 40 million for four years. Chandler, who admittedly is a champion and a great defensive anchor, is getting 60 million for 4 years 5 million a year more than Bargs, who is a far better offensive weapon. Basically if Bargs brings exactly the same thing this year that he brought last year, he is still a bargain compared to other bigs. Maybe this means we should trade him since his value is up, but for the moment I'm very happy with what he is bringing.

The key is how he should be used. Does he have to be Dirk? No. If he does some of the things Dirk does does that make us better? Yes. Opening up the floor on offense, creating mismatches, playing multiple positions, providing size, the guy just allows for so many different looks on offense and can make his teammates better by just being out there. He doesn't even have to be the number one option, in fact I'd like to see him take less shots and work on shooting a higher percentage, especially from 3. If Derozen can become a superstar type player, having a Bargnani to spread the floor and come out for the three will be very very effective.

Can he improve? I think it's ridiculous to say he can't, especially defensively. Regardless of whether or not he improves though, he is a very good player for what he is paid.

As far as him taking away minutes from Ed and Amir, I think you're making the assumption that minutes will not be earned this year and that Bargs will just play 35 minutes because he's Bargs. It will be a lot better for the development of these guys to have to earn minutes, which is what Casey preaches, than just being thrown out there because there is no one better.

"Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

When you mature you do become a different person. Changes vary person to person. I've seen some people totally transform into things I'd never expect, good and bad. That's life, people change. Carter was the ultimate slasher in his best years in Toronto and then later he changed and fell in love with his jump shot and arguably turned into a less effective player. People change and their games change all the time.

So with "maturity" Carter got more lazy. Although in part that was due to his injuries and the type of person he was. That never changed. He was never the hardest working player and that never changed.

Apollo wrote:

Yeah, because there are zero cases on players breaking out later in their careers...

Hey, there are cases of people surviving when their parachute didn't work, but I'm certainly not going to jump out of an airplane without a parachute on the off chance I might survive. I don't bank on exceptions.

Again, I've NEVER said that it was impossible for Bargnani to change. Never. Not once. I have said I have no faith in him doing so and that there is simply no evidence to support the argument that he will.

Apollo wrote:

He doesn't need to be a lockdown defender and rebounder. All he needs to do is become competent in those two areas and then he's not his teammate's liability in their court.

The problem is that, and I've said this before, Bargnani has to make some MAJOR improvements on defense in order to be what I consider a competent big man defender. That means better defensively than Amare, Boozer, David Lee, Al Jefferson, David West and Zach Randolph, all of whose defense I consider unacceptable for a big man.

I am sort of confused by this discussion. Bargs could improve or he could not, the fact is that right now he is good value for his contract. If he started averaging 9 rebounds a game, playing good D, and improved his scoring efficiency he would be worth significantly more than his contract, and in fact would probably by a max type guy.

Right now Bargs is owed $42 million over the next four years. That's $42 million for a 7 footer who plays average man D, spreads the floor well with his shooting, can play either the 5 or 4, and is still only 26. To put that in perspective, DeAndre Jordan, who will never be anywhere near the offensive player Bargs is and is basically on the same level as Amir Johnson at the moment (Shout out Tim W's blog) is getting 40 million for four years. Chandler, who admittedly is a champion and a great defensive anchor, is getting 60 million for 4 years 5 million a year more than Bargs, who is a far better offensive weapon. Basically if Bargs brings exactly the same thing this year that he brought last year, he is still a bargain compared to other bigs. Maybe this means we should trade him since his value is up, but for the moment I'm very happy with what he is bringing.

The key is how he should be used. Does he have to be Dirk? No. If he does some of the things Dirk does does that make us better? Yes. Opening up the floor on offense, creating mismatches, playing multiple positions, providing size, the guy just allows for so many different looks on offense and can make his teammates better by just being out there. He doesn't even have to be the number one option, in fact I'd like to see him take less shots and work on shooting a higher percentage, especially from 3. If Derozen can become a superstar type player, having a Bargnani to spread the floor and come out for the three will be very very effective.

Can he improve? I think it's ridiculous to say he can't, especially defensively. Regardless of whether or not he improves though, he is a very good player for what he is paid.

As far as him taking away minutes from Ed and Amir, I think you're making the assumption that minutes will not be earned this year and that Bargs will just play 35 minutes because he's Bargs. It will be a lot better for the development of these guys to have to earn minutes, which is what Casey preaches, than just being thrown out there because there is no one better.

7 pages of posts in 24 hours...you have to like AB just for that alone.

The article title used the phrase "Sees Similarities Between" - this thread title used the words "thinks they're the same!!!". A simple example about how Raptors fans tend to exaggerate everything, good or bad, about Bargnani.

I am sort of confused by this discussion. Bargs could improve or he could not, the fact is that right now he is good value for his contract. If he started averaging 9 rebounds a game, playing good D, and improved his scoring efficiency he would be worth significantly more than his contract, and in fact would probably by a max type guy.

Right now Bargs is owed $42 million over the next four years. That's $42 million for a 7 footer who plays average man D

You lost me right here. He doesn't play average man D. I've already gone into this before, but having watched the guy play nearly every game the last 5 years, what I have seen is not average man-to-man defense. And his team defense is atrocious, making him an actual liability on the court.

Let me repeat that.

Bargnani is currently a liability on the court.

For all of DeAndre Jordan's weaknesses (and he does have them), he's not a liability to the team half the time he's on the court. There's a difference between not being an offensive threat and being a liability on offense. Reggie Evans was, for the most part, an offensive liability because even if you gave him the ball under the basket, there was a good chance he wouldn't put it in (although in his defense he's obviously a great offensive rebounder and an underrated passer, so that helps). Jordan shot over 65% from the field. No one can say he's a liability on offense, except in tight games when his free throw shooting could hurt his team, but he can simply be taken out, then.

If it was just what COlangelo had said, I would have taken it with a grain of salt. It was the fact that there were other things going on that made me look closer to what Colangelo was saying. And I was simply implying that I thought the Raptors were now open to trading Bargnani. I still think that might be true. Of course, none of us knows what goes on behind closed doors. Maybe Casey said to give him some time with him and see if he turns things around. I can see Colangelo not thinking theres any hurry in trading Bargnani. It's a "lost" season, in terms of wins and losses, so maybe Casey and Colangelo decided to see what happens. Who knows?

I'm not sure why you're trying to throw it back in my face, though.

So what youre saying is players say things just for the heck of saying it?

Things seem to be going downhill fast for Bargnani in Toronto. All the evidence seems to point to Bargnani being traded before the start of next season. To me, it seemed like Colangelo has been planning it for sometime, slowly leaking the information out there in order to garner interest and ease the fans into the idea. His teammates, several of whom suggested the Raptors need a legit center, certainly don’t seem like they’d mind too much if Bargnani was in a different uniform. And if the Raptors are truly going to lose their identity of an offensive team that can’t play defense, they need to get rid of the poster child for that.

I think we truly are seeing the last days of Bargnani in Toronto.

Maybe im taking it too literally but this excerpt from your article kinda suggests youre expecting him to be traded before this season starts.

Maybe im taking it too literally but this excerpt from your article kinda suggests youre expecting him to be traded before this season starts.

Oh i guess now it changed coz of Casey? Figures.

I'm not sure what exactly from that I have to explain. Maybe I need to point out the words "To me" and "I think". I was taking a guess on what the future might hold based on the evidence at hand. At no point did I say it will happen. Even the title contains a question mark, if you didn't notice. Are you getting me mixed up with Nostradamus?

7 pages of posts in 24 hours...you have to like AB just for that alone.

The article title used the phrase "Sees Similarities Between" - this thread title used the words "thinks they're the same!!!". A simple example about how Raptors fans tend to exaggerate everything, good or bad, about Bargnani.

hahahaha i think its more our personalities rather than actually Bargnani.

I always find it amazing how little NBA coaches and assistant coaches know compared to us fans. Why these morons spent hours upon hours dissecting game tapes when frankly, they would be far better served looking at answers on fan websites.

'Cause we have the definite answers and the only reason we are not coaching or managing a team is we were not provided with the opportunity! But we would rock if we were ever empowered! 82-0 (or 0-82 if you prefer tanking) GUARANTEE!

Have you ever read Moneyball, or any book for that matter (just poking fun )? You would think decades of coaching experience equates to having all the angles covered. But believe it or not, there is dogma in professional sports that can sometimes prevent people from thinking outside the box, and adapting to the game as it evolves.

Some coaches have an old school mentality, where sticking a small forward on a center would be unheard of. 7 foot jump shooters didn't exist 30 years ago, but times have changed, yet strategies may not have necessarily caught up.

I'm not sure what exactly from that I have to explain. Maybe I need to point out the words "To me" and "I think". I was taking a guess on what the future might hold based on the evidence at hand. At no point did I say it will happen. Even the title contains a question mark, if you didn't notice. Are you getting me mixed up with Nostradamus?

Well when you say stuff like this:

I think we truly are seeing the last days of Bargnani in Toronto.

It looks like you do think you are Nostradamus. Just man up and say "I was really expecting him to get traded but it didnt happen, so lets move on". I wouldnt think any less of you as i do now.

Ive said this to you before, its never-ending. If Bargnani surprises us all, people are still going to say, well its not enough. If he continues to disappoint, well, people are going to say I told you so.

How would you rate Dirk Nowitzski as a rebounder? It would help me understand your position.

I don't understand why you say I set the bar low when I would like him to increase his DRR from 13.9% to 19-20% to make me very happy. That's a 30% increase from last year and he would be an average defensive rebounder at that rate. I believe it is far more reasonable to ask someone who was always poor or horrible at something to become average at it because it is a goal the individual may accept as reachable. In my opinion, asking someone who is poor or horrible at something to suddendly become great at it (and 24% DRR is a great defensive rebounding rate) is setting expectations the individual cannot achieve and is incredibly bad people management in my experience.

I would also like Amir Johnson to grab defensive rebounds at the same 19-20% rate. Amir was a slightly below average defensive rebounder last year and I believe he can improve upon that.

You looked at one example of a 'big men who shoots 3s'. There are more. Some of the guys who are 'big men who shoot 3s' are great rebounders (Love was the best in the league last year) There is no reason that Bargnani shouldn't be expected to average right around where every other big man averages.

How do I view Dirk as a rebounder? For his career pretty close to average. This last year a below average rebounder. But he is also 33 years old (not 26), and provides a lot more on both ends of the floor.

But I fail to see how Dirk has anything to do with it.

No one is asking Bargnani to be 'great' at rebounding. Just around average... as was said in the first place. There were approx 36 big men (who played enough minutes/games) who average 10 rebounds per 36. There were 80 big men who averaged 10 rebounds per 36 (that includes all big men). Expecting Bargnani to average somewhere in the neighboorhood of 9-10 rebounds per game is not asking him to be great.

(just off hand there were 36 players who average a 24% DRR (rounded up)... I don't think being at the bottom end of 36 others is greatness)

So with "maturity" Carter got more lazy. Although in part that was due to his injuries and the type of person he was. That never changed. He was never the hardest working player and that never changed.

That's your interpretation. He might have viewed it as he was more valuable as a jump shooter or that he had a higher level of energy throughout the game or he was less susceptible to injuries or whatever. Jumper shooter doesn't necessarily mean lazy. Is Ray Allen lazy? What about Reggie Miller?

Tim W. wrote:

Hey, there are cases of people surviving when their parachute didn't work, but I'm certainly not going to jump out of an airplane without a parachute on the off chance I might survive. I don't bank on exceptions.

You've gone off the track, you're in the ditch.

Tim W. wrote:

Again, I've NEVER said that it was impossible for Bargnani to change. Never. Not once. I have said I have no faith in him doing so and that there is simply no evidence to support the argument that he will.

Only his hard ass new coach who is praising the hell out of him(vocal leadership, focused on more of a post presence, focused on improving defense and rebounding) and the fact that he's reported before anyone on the team.

Tim W. wrote:

The problem is that, and I've said this before, Bargnani has to make some MAJOR improvements on defense in order to be what I consider a competent big man defender. That means better defensively than Amare, Boozer, David Lee, Al Jefferson, David West and Zach Randolph, all of whose defense I consider unacceptable for a big man.

No, he doesn't. I don't think Al Jeff is better than him on defense. That guy is a baaad defender. Either way, it doesn't matter. You're going to be forced to sit through it at the end of the day. It's going to play out, he's not going to get traded right now because it makes no sense. Welcome to at least one more season of Andrea Bargnani, Tim. Enjoy.

Mess wrote:

7 pages of posts in 24 hours...you have to like AB just for that alone.

The article title used the phrase "Sees Similarities Between" - this thread title used the words "thinks they're the same!!!". A simple example about how Raptors fans tend to exaggerate everything, good or bad, about Bargnani.

Noted and adjusted. I agree about the exageration. If Bargnani does get traded, DeRozan or JV will be the next punching bag. There always must be one guy who takes primary blame relentlessly. It's just the way it seems to work in Raptorsland. Bargnani has been a solid candidate but no where near Hoffa levels.

In the article and Casey's defense, (and I admit haven't read through all 7 pages because I'm sure it's been derailed into a general AB discussion) I'd argue that Bargnani has the most similar offensive skillset to Dirk than any other player in the league. Similar, not equal. And I'm including the matchup problems they create as part of their skillset.

Why wouldn't you want Casey to run sets that worked for Dirk and put him into a good position to score or create for others?

Everyone knows the sets would be more effective if you had Dirk rather than Bargnani. But what else are the Raptors we going to run? JC and Amir pick and rolls? DD baseline backdoor alleyoops? That damn Longhorns (or whatever) play Sam Mitchell used to run every single time down the court?

That's all that article and quotes are saying - with some added hyperbole for confidence boosting and PR hype.

But I suppose you can't have an article that compliments Bargnani on his offensive game without everyone chiming in about how he's lacking in other (maybe every other) areas.

I wonder...if Phil Jackson was coaching the Raptors this year and he said he has some sets he wants to run for DD because they worked for Kobe, how big the outcry would be here in RR.

You lost me right here. He doesn't play average man D. I've already gone into this before, but having watched the guy play nearly every game the last 5 years, what I have seen is not average man-to-man defense. And his team defense is atrocious, making him an actual liability on the court.

Let me repeat that.

Bargnani is currently a liability on the court.

For all of DeAndre Jordan's weaknesses (and he does have them), he's not a liability to the team half the time he's on the court. There's a difference between not being an offensive threat and being a liability on offense. Reggie Evans was, for the most part, an offensive liability because even if you gave him the ball under the basket, there was a good chance he wouldn't put it in (although in his defense he's obviously a great offensive rebounder and an underrated passer, so that helps). Jordan shot over 65% from the field. No one can say he's a liability on offense, except in tight games when his free throw shooting could hurt his team, but he can simply be taken out, then.

You are incorrect in your assessment of Bargs' man defense. It is average and some would argue it is actually decent. He is strong when guarding pick and rolls and isolation plays. He also does a good job defending in the post. He is bad a closing out. There was an article about it last here, it was fairly in depth and looked at how he did in different situations vs. the rest of the league, maybe you remember it? He has had bad games, but overall he is an average man defender.

His team defense is "atrocious", particularly when he has to make more than one rotation, but then he has never had another good defensive player around him to key off. If we are going with the Nowitzki comparison, Dirk had his struggles on defense too. Once he had a good defensive center put beside him to work with he got better and eventually became the average player we see today. It's not rocket science, having no one on the team who knows how to play team D as a center gives no example for Bargs to follow. Maybe this will be corrected this season by the addition of Magloir and Casey, maybe not.

If you think DeAndre Jordan isn't a liability on offense, you haven't watched him enough. The guy is not only a terrible, terrible free throw shooter, he is useless beyond two feet from the basket, and he is just plain bad in the pick and roll. Without Blake to attract attention, he'd be useless. The only reason he isn't a complete loss is his freaky athleticism which could eventually let him become a better player. This is not Dwight Howard 2, Dwight has always been a pick and roll monster.

"Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

In the article and Casey's defense, (and I admit haven't read through all 7 pages because I'm sure it's been derailed into a general AB discussion) I'd argue that Bargnani has the most similar offensive skillset to Dirk than any other player in the league. Similar, not equal. And I'm including the matchup problems they create as part of their skillset.

Why wouldn't you want Casey to run sets that worked for Dirk and put him into a good position to score or create for others?

Everyone knows the sets would be more effective if you had Dirk rather than Bargnani. But what else are the Raptors we going to run? JC and Amir pick and rolls? DD baseline backdoor alleyoops? That damn Longhorns (or whatever) play Sam Mitchell used to run every single time down the court?

That's all that article and quotes are saying - with some added hyperbole for confidence boosting and PR hype.

But I suppose you can't have an article that compliments Bargnani on his offensive game without everyone chiming in about how he's lacking in other (maybe every other) areas.

I wonder...if Phil Jackson was coaching the Raptors this year and he said he has some sets he wants to run for DD because they worked for Kobe, how big the outcry would be here in RR.

This is my gripe about Bargnani discussions, some people just cant go through one good post without mentioning all his "liabilities". We get it! For crying out loud. It starts with the good stuff and eventually somebody comes in and points out the bad. Irks me coz it just ruins good discussions.