When Russia and China do this EU and America are officially toast. Since your beloved western puppets placed sanctions agaisnt Russia, i dont think
Russia would be fair on giving Europe this new line of gas supply.

Ukraine's debt for gas supply has reached 3.5 billion.
For two months Ukraine has not made payments for delivered Russian gas.
It will be interesting to see what is going to happen in a next 3 weeks if money is not paid.

So, before May 16 Gazprom will produce a bill for June gas supplies to Naftogaz which should pay it before the end of May. If the bill is not
paid, sanctions on the contract restricting gas supplies to Ukraine may be imposed in this case.
Read more: voiceofrussia.com...

Ukraine's debt for gas supply has reached 3.5 billion.
For two months Ukraine has not made payments for delivered Russian gas.
It will be interesting to see what is going to happen in a next 3 weeks if money is not paid.

Am I the only one who finds it very suspicious how the result of '89% approval' in this referendum exactly matches the number suggested
by that Russian official to one of the Donetsk separatists in the alleged phone intercept released last Wednesday by the SBU?

1. The initial, tactical takeovers of government and administrative buildings in the eastern Ukraine cities included Russian national 'volunteers'
(e.g. Kuban Cossacks in Simon Ostrovsky's interview). Although, judging by some first hand interviews, disaffected Ukrainian veterans and Berkut also
comprised these forces.

2. The arson deaths of 40 people at the Trade Union House in Odessa, which did a significant amount to catalyze fear and hatred among eastern
Ukrainians, occurred after prolonged street battles that day between the two protest groups. At the start of these skirmishes, the pro-Russian group
was significantly infiltrated by masked men carrying guns, and who fired these weapons indiscriminately into the crowds from behind barricades and
atop roofs. While neither side can agree who these men were, both sides consider this highly suspicious.

3. The Ukrainian SBU released an alleged mobile phone intercept last Wednesday wherein a Donetsk separatist leader receives instructions from a
Russian government official on his need to proceed with the referendum (despite Putin's very diplomatic public request for them to delay it). In this
recording the separatist is told to fabricate an 89% YES vote, which matches today's published result, 89.07% of today.

Note that I have not characterized or interpreted anything here. These are only facts that are thoroughly evidenced and agreed upon by both sides. For
instance, one could definitely be skeptical that the SBU recording is genuine but the fact is that they posted it several days before the referendum
and the number matches that of the result.

The conclusion I draw from these facts is that Russians are very likely orchestrating agitation and separatism in Ukraine. While the West may be
offering consultation or even material support now to the Kyiv government, this is has mostly been Russia's theater.

The conclusion I draw from these facts is that Russians are very likely orchestrating agitation and separatism in Ukraine. While the West may
be offering consultation or even material support now to the Kyiv government, this is has mostly been Russia's theater.

Russia does seem to be orchestrating agitation and civil unrest in order to pull the pro-russian side into aligning the rest of Ukraine with Russian
interests.

However, I would also add the Western influence in all this. Let's please not forget that the Ukrainian issue started (not this crisis, the whole
Ukrainian situation, from the moment people started protesting peacefully and when nationalism wasn't even an issue) when people were divided with
going along with the European Union, or accept Russian aid and accept some of it's influence.

What we are seeing today are consequences of Eastern and Western nations and governments pulling Ukraine to their side. The problem is, it's not easy
for Ukraine to simply jump into the EU train, nor it is easy to forget about the past and make some sort of cooperation with Russia. So, what you get
is this nation torn apart by outsider influences, spiraling into more violent clashes and putting international peace in question.

It's like Ukraine is in the middle of this political and strategic rope-pulling game, where two world super-powers (plus sympathizers) are pulling
the rope to their side as hard as they can.

Something has to give in and break, and I'm afraid the only weak link in all this is Ukraine, and the Ukrainian people.

originally posted by: GarrusVasNormandy
a reply to: ALoveSupreme
Let's please not forget that the Ukrainian issue started (not this crisis, the whole Ukrainian situation, from the moment people started protesting
peacefully and when nationalism wasn't even an issue) when people were divided with going along with the European Union, or accept Russian aid and
accept some of it's influence.

True, but that was only around 200 students who went to protest the EU trade deal refusal in November.

The thousands took the square because they were indignant when these peaceful protestors were beaten. This Maidan really started out as an anti
Yanukovych and corruption protest.

a reply to: GarrusVasNormandy
Don't think there is a person here who doubts Russian or European/American influence within Ukraine however what is glaringly obvious is the clear
lack of support and loyalty from the general population towards an untrustworthy government, who in the past casted votes just to have their elected
leader violently removed and replaced,who's first order of the day was to make enemies with Russia(a historical ally)plunge them into debt and call
them to arms and because thats not working hire a 3rd party army.
Electing independence..can you blame them?

originally posted by: all2human
a reply to: GarrusVasNormandy
Don't think there is a person here who doubts Russian or European/American influence within Ukraine however what is glaringly obvious is the clear
lack of support and loyalty from the general population towards an untrustworthy government, who in the past casted votes just to have their elected
leader violently removed and replaced,who's first order of the day was to make enemies with Russia(a historical ally)plunge them into debt and call
them to arms and because thats not working hire a 3rd party army.

SOrry but their president was not violently deposed. That is a outright lie and you should be ashamed to have even typed it. he was voted out
according to their laws that even russia agreed with until their man was out of power.

originally posted by: all2human
a reply to: GarrusVasNormandy
Don't think there is a person here who doubts Russian or European/American influence within Ukraine however what is glaringly obvious is the clear
lack of support and loyalty from the general population towards an untrustworthy government, who in the past casted votes just to have their elected
leader violently removed and replaced,who's first order of the day was to make enemies with Russia,plunge them into debt and call them to arms and
because thats not working hire a 3rd party.

The cynicism of the general Ukrainian populace towards politics has existed for many years now since the failure of the Orange Revolution to produce
long lasting political reform or a healthy economy.

Yanukovych's presidency was certainly not the first example of corruption, but it was arguably one of the most egregious!

The fact that nationalist elements like Right Sector participated in and likely escalated things during Euromaidan does not mean the movement as a
whole is to blame for what has happened.

I would offer that the most significant escalations which led to partisan violence were:

1) the armed incursion by foreign troops into Crimea

2) the appearance of foreign nationals as armed mercenaries and provocateurs in other territories

The Ukrainian government did not respond with its own troops for many weeks, and unsurprisingly it did not help the situation much when they did.

The civil war in Ukraine is now starting if it is not already under way.

The only real question which remains is whether Putin intends to formally invade soon or just let the internal violence catalyzed by his black
operation run its course for many months and ruin any chance Ukraine has of reconciliation.

Meanwhile, if the West were not playing their own cynical manipulation, they would insist upon deploying a mutually agreed upon International
peacekeeping force with a UN or other mandate.

However, the West probably sees these reckless interventions by Putin as formula for his own undoing. Putin is taking an immense gamble and casting
Russia as an international pariah.

originally posted by: all2human
a reply to: GarrusVasNormandy
Don't think there is a person here who doubts Russian or European/American influence within Ukraine however what is glaringly obvious is the clear
lack of support and loyalty from the general population towards an untrustworthy government, who in the past casted votes just to have their elected
leader violently removed and replaced,who's first order of the day was to make enemies with Russia(a historical ally)plunge them into debt and call
them to arms and because thats not working hire a 3rd party army.

SOrry but their president was not violently deposed. That is a outright lie and you should be ashamed to have even typed it. he was voted out
according to their laws that even russia agreed with until their man was out of power.

'Violently deposed' is indeed a gross mischaracterization. He fled with his security to Russia and was scared (rightfully ) of his own people after
he ordered Berkut to fire live ammunition at the Maidan crowd.

But to be fair, the impeachment proceedings did not run their full course to removal as dictated by the constitution. There should have been a
judicial review and so forth. However, Yanukovych's fleeing to another country was cited as evidence enough of his being indisposed.

True, but that was only around 200 students who went to protest the EU trade deal refusal in November.

Correct. Like many other protests in your country, and my country, and everyone else's country...

The thousands took the square because they were indignant when these peaceful protestors were beaten. This Maidan really started out as an anti
Yanukovych and corruption protest.

Kind of, you are not entirely correct.

The thousands didn't rush the squares because of police mismanagement of the protests. It gradually escalated, and it was peaceful for a long
time.

Without fetching Google, I'm most certain of headlines like "Ukrainian revolution" and stuff like that. Before any confrontation. Something
like the Occupy movement. It eventually fell between the cracks of news about who is screwing who in the showbiz, but the Ukrainian situation took
months to develop.

And in those months, it had nothing to do with Russia nor was Russia putting it's finger inside Ukraine. At least, not anymore the EU was.

...and while you portray this as an anti-Yanukovych movement, it was very far from that when this started. Yanukovych - and I know I'm provably going
to get a lot of fire for stating this - actually played everything right and by the book, before everyone snapped.

Yanukovych actually stopped the policies that were moving forward, and asked the population what they wanted to do: a) Russia b) EU.

It was after months of "occupation wall street" style protests, and after serious clashes erupted that this grew into the situation
that involves both East and West.

The Western media oversimplified things to make it be all about the EU trade deal. A terrible journalistic inaccuracy.

I disagree.

It was actually their fault to catapult this into a "US/NATO vs Russia" type of thing. We all know fear sells, so headlines ringing bells to the
Cold War or WW2 era, are the modern equivalent of literature erections for those running news agencies.

"Russia threatens US"; "US wants Russia to stop military action"... It sounds like a Tom Clancy's novel and everyone started drumming to the
sound of it.

..................while people like me are left confused because I remember a whole set of different news before the violence erupted. I remember
Ukrainians talking about joining the EU and their opinions about it, and their consideration of economic cooperation with Russia.

A lot of people like to bash keys stating things that leave the idea that all the Ukrainians went batsh**-crazy when Yanukovich tried to stop EU
resolutions. Well, that's actually BS, and more accurately, Western BS.

Ukrainians were genuinely divided over joining the EU. Some did want it, others didn't. And why? Because Ukrainians looked at weaker (economically)
countries in the EU, and looked at how they were being treated by leading countries like *drums sound* Germany.

I only need to say "Spain/Italy/Portugal/Greece" for anyone to understand why any sentient Ukrainian would want to say "Hold up, let's think about
this before jumping into the EU thingy". They didn't want to end up worst than before joining the EU, so they were also debating the other options:
bankruptcy or Russia aid. A non-IMF type of aid, given by the Russian Federation with very little interest, as long as Ukraine played it cool with
their gas pipelines and gas consumption contracts.

This idea that Ukrainians suddenly became enraged by Yanukovych reluctance in joining EU is quite simply a big pile of BS, with all due respect.
Ukrainians were peacefully divided in their opinions, which means that both the EU and the Russian options were seductive.

Most people here have no problems seeing the Russian influence in this situation. And with very good reasons. But I don't believe in coincidences,
and it's not a coincidence that the moment the EU proposition was in jeopardy, clashes erupted...

To me, a sense of insecurity moves more mountains than natural erosion, and in this case, who was the insecure party that felt the need to promote
clashes? Russia, who had seen Ukraine become more and more EU friendly and even considered their membership a sure thing? Or the Western countries who
wanted Ukraine to be a part of EU but suddenly realized that the membership everyone thought was assured became doubtful? I bet on the second,
personally.

Especially when I witnessed this type of crap in countries like Egypt. Like I said, I don't believe in coincidences, and to me, it's not a
coincidence that the type of crap that happened in Egypt (just as an example) happened exactly the same way in Ukraine, two countries so far apart in
culture and historical background that it's stupid to even assume things would play out the same way in both countries.

Anyone who knows me from these boards knows that I'm almost anti-conspiracy, and for someone like me to state that this Ukraine thing has CIA
written all over it, it's because it stinks so high that anyone who looks into it falls on it's butt looking up.

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