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My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

It is always shocking to me when a discriminated group discriminates against other marginalized segments of society. In university I took courses on queer history and queer culture, feminism, racial segregation and the civil rights movement in the US, and I was lucky enough to engulf myself in a program on the status of Aboriginal peoples in North America. I consider myself a feminist regardless of my male gender. I would consider myself a defender of racial minorites (indeed, this is a part of my actual job), and naturally I stand up for the GLBTQ community whenever needed.

Normally, I don't like to think of any one group having it more difficult or harder than any other. I don't want to create a discrimination heirarchy, that in itself would be discriminatory. As much as I long to avoid creating or fostering any further a divide among minorities; I find that within a larger minority this is commonplace. Perhaps it is the mindset that "I'm discriminated so what I do can not be discriminative." Or maybe because of the chip on the shoulder of a marginalized they feel they can get away with it or that it is somehow fair.

As a sort of social experiment, five friends and I all created five types of accounts on dating sites and chat sites within the gay community. Each user created a fictional character and used that character five times- but as five different races. The personality of the fictional characters were essentially just the personality of the user who made it. In short we had: an educated, serious, African American; an educated, serious, Asian American; an educated, serious Hispanic American, etc. Another user was more jovial and light with conversation so we had a jovial African American, a jovial American of Middle Eastern descent, etc.

Six fairly individual personality types repeated over the facade of being five different races. If this were truly a post racist world, one might think that each user had the same level of success making a connection with each account. They did not change their style of communication or the topics they discussed. They used the same sites for each of their fictional personas. But we each found startling inequities.

Sites which were most used among us included; silverdaddies.com, plentyoffish.com, squirt.org, manhunt.net, and the app grindr. We used these sites because they gave a good spread of what gay men are looking for; friendship, dating, hook ups, and long term relationships.

Our first observation was that there is a very clear heirarchy of what is desired by other gay men. This was disturbing for more than one reason. Not surprisingly, white men were at the top of the heap among all sites visited. What was surprising was that even among men of ethnic minority, white men were still the most desired. Why was this happening? Why was there a reluctance for gay Saudi Arabians living in American to be with other gay Saudi Arabians living in America? We'll expand on that theory later.

Our second observation was that thet next two highest races on the desirability heirarchy were there in a negative placement. They were there for fetish reasons more than anything. Black men were fetished and objectified predominantly by white men, who themselves identified as bottoms. Even on sites or with profiles which sought friendship and chat, black profiles were approached strictly for sexual purposes. Asian profiles were equally objectified by white men who identified as tops who wanted to dominate, use, and own the Asian men. In both cases, there was a general disregard for the ethnic minority's preferences, opinions, feelings, and a detachment from getting to know the gay person as a person.

What is interesting of the second finding was that in some cases the same exterior user messaged the same interior user's multiple accounts. Though the exterior user took time, moved slower (in most instances), and got to befriend the white persona, they would move faster, speak slightly more derrogatory, and spend less time getting to know the ethnic personas- even though they all had the exact same personality and interests.

Is being objectified and fetishized any better than being totally ignored?

The other two races used in this experiement (which took almost a year) were men of Middle Eastern descent, and men of Latino or Hispanic heritage. Latinos/Hispanics faired poorer than Asians but significantly better than Middle Eastern men. Latinos were not quite as fetishized as Blacks or Asians when they were finally contacted, but they went for longer periods of time without contact. In the vast majority of times, we had to make first contact with our Middle Eastern accounts (this was less true of accounts we set up stating that we lived in European countries).

Problems plague Middle Eastern men. What is the reluctance to commincute with one another? Fear of being discovered by heterosexual members of the same race and alienation from the group or harsher punishment? Whenever we spoke to a Middle Eastern gay male, there was an air of secrecy about them. They would sometimes confide that they were scared of family, friends, or their community discovering their sexuality. This problem inhibits their ability to seek love or sex among their own race. This is also true of first and second generation Asian Americans. We did not really find this confession or sentiment among any other race to any notable extent.

Handling racism on the internet is difficult. Most sites expect you to handle the racism yourself. Though the moderators of many websites will ban you for saying or implying anything else of an illegal manner, the illegality of racism is self controlled. Thankfully that is not the case with justusboys.com. The worst example we found (by a significant margin) was silverdaddies.com. Five out of the six of us used silverdaddies on a regular basis for this experiment. For those who do not know, silverdaddies has three live chat rooms with very strict and usually enforced rules of use. Moderators patrol the live chats to maintain order and "civility". You can get banned for entering more than one chat room at a time, posting links to other websites, or even repeating yourself. What we found on silverdaddies was the highest margin of openly racist and derrogatory remarks and the lowest margin of punishment for this behaviour. You can get banned for repeating the message, "29, gay, looking for a daddy type" four times within four minutes- but moderators were hesitant to ban anybody calling a Latino a "beaner". As late as today, I used three accounts and saw this behaviour repeated on silverdaddies with the moderator dismissing it and asking me to take it up with the webmaster if I couldn't satisfy myself with temporarily blocking said racist (silverdaddies has no permanant block feature despite paid membership).

The widest use of blatant racism remarks came from gay men of a certain age, 40 and up (I personnally thought it would have been older), and from certain geographical regions; South-East USA (sorry former slave states, you haven't ecolved as much as I would hoped) as well as the prarie provinces of Canada to a lesser extent. Sidenote- what is it with farming and racism that make them go hand in hand?

When I refer to blatant racism, I'm not referring to the racism that gets debated on justusboys as to whether or not it is racist, I mean literally having been called every variation of the n bomb that there is. One user was sent a private message to the effect of, "Hey Rice-Ni**er, get off this site." only minutes after creating the account. Source- squirt.org

This had to be the most disheartening experience of my life. For one year, I got to pretend that I was somethings that I am not. I got to be African-American. I got to be Latino (with my limited knowledge of the Spanish language), I got to be Japanese and Chinese, I got to be a Saudi Arabian! I also got to be treated like shit. I got objectified. I got fetishized for the perception that I might have a 12 inch cock because of my skin colour.

It should be noted that three of us did not use pictures with our various profiles. So whether or not we were more or less attractive was not an issue. Those who did use pictures typically used generic pictures of either biceps or abs. And only one user used pictures of faces. With faces, there is a chance of preference at play. But he did try to use pictures of guys who were not overly good looking nor unattractive.

I'll also note that only four of us are gay/bisexual. That's right. For almost one year we had two straight people (male and female) to chat online with gay men about relationships, sex, politics, and more sex. My husband took part in the experiment, which was fun. One of us is writing a PhD (that is not me), and is using our experiment as the base for his thesis so I can't really elaborate much more on our findings. But I thought it was a fun experience and something worth sharing.

Being totally honest though, I'm pretty offended that you chose to find representatives of my community through disgusting online hookup sites. Did you really think you were going to find the beacon gays, shining like diamonds on whatever the hell squirt.org is? This just furthers my point that these statistics or polls are bullshit until enough people are open about the sexuality to get a good diverse group of gheys.

The title of this thread shouldn't be "Outlook on racism in the gay community" it should be "Outlook of racism on hookup sites"

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

you pretty much are saying things that some of us know because we experience it on a daily basis. i myself know this off the bat even when i was a closet case because i would notice how strange some of the gay guys who happened to be white would act whenever they would come around us when my homeboys and me would happen to pass by them on some stuck up shit. racism is real. if you aren't white in the lgbt community, you pretty much are going to be overlooked by damn near everybody. it's basically the way the whole culture is run. you pretty much have white guys on the magazines, models that are white, on the damn gay club flyers and etc. white guys are supposedly the "representatives" of the lgbt community and everybody else is just brushed to the side as if we don't exist. sure you might see an asian gay community or a black gay community but they're nowhere near as strong as the white gay community because everybody sticks together and you have some powerful heads that have influence on the world outthere. that white supremacist ideology shit is real, i don't care what anybody says. it runs the world and that's fucked up if you ask me.

then you have these folks that simply don't get it when you make threads like these and they happen to be white. they pretty much try to dismiss this shit as if they know how it feels to be in the next person shoes when they never ever will experience it. that's the honest truth. i'm just sick and tired of seeing folks basically being prejudiced and the whole nine themselves, racist, sexist and even homophobic towards themselves then trying to play the victim card because they're being discriminated for being gay. how can you feel sorry for an asshole?

Last edited by refujiunderground; February 14th, 2013 at 11:33 AM.

one thing about the closet/you don't have to hurry/it will be bad tomorrow/so brother, don't you worry

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

It sucks that racism gets thrown around so often tbqh, now when/if I have to deal with real racism I will be paid dust

Tbh it's already happening

I was on Grindr for a bit actually and the men in general there were really fucking ugly. I live in a fab area, too. Tons of gheighs.

Too many wanted to bareback though. I had to swerve on em

Mess @ Rice-N-Word.

Pretty much solidifies the argument that the people equipped with positive attributes, success, looks, personality don't need it.

i don't know if you're serious BUT it certainly doesn't have anything to do with looks. breh, all you have to do is just be of a certain color and a background and folks simply don't want shit to do with you. some folks say they aren't attracted to folks for the color of the skin or whatever. to me, that rubs me the wrong way. i think the thing that really gets to me is when folks basically have some prejudical reasons behind it as well where they simply won't deal with black people period because they think we're this, that and the fifth. it's pretty much anybody. folks like to think that only white people can be prejudiced towards black people or racist. i've seen black people basically hate their own where they basically refuse to associate with black people period. you see them with nothing but white people around them and etc. it just irks me.

one thing about the closet/you don't have to hurry/it will be bad tomorrow/so brother, don't you worry

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

I fucked up applying my side eye/shady look "" on the first line of my previous post before ya'll come for me. It was a joke.

Originally Posted by refujiunderground

i don't know if you're serious BUT it certainly doesn't have anything to do with looks. breh, all you have to do is just be of a certain color and a background and folks simply don't want shit to do with you. some folks say they aren't attracted to folks for the color of the skin or whatever. to me, that rubs me the wrong way. i think the thing that really gets to me is when folks basically have some prejudical reasons behind it as well where they simply won't deal with black people period because they think we're this, that and the fifth. it's pretty much anybody. folks like to think that only white people can be prejudiced towards black people or racist. i've seen black people basically hate their own where they basically refuse to associate with black people period. you see them with nothing but white people around them and etc. it just irks me.

Smh, black people. Keep something in mind though, Refuji: I, had nothing but white friends from age 12-14. Was it because I hated black people? No, it was because I was placed in a fucking Catholic School. Nearly jumped off the roof, tbqh.

I'm sure plenty of people just looked at me how you would and thought "The hell?" sometimes you truly are a product of your environment.

Now I've completly done a 180 and I'm trying to scoop up some white friends

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

An interesting experiment, which I would have liked taking part to, if I only were capable of faking personality/interest...
Your findings are not surprising at all though, there as another thread a few months ago with results from a large study on the same topic...
So once you've gathered/collected facts and drew conclusions, what's next though?
I'll guess the world'll keep on turning just the same ...

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

I think this topic has been raised before. Preferring one race over another in the looks department is not racism but simply preference, just as preferring to have sex with other males and not females is not discrimination (unless it is in the bizzaro world inhabited by some people who seem to reach a type of orgasm in finding what they are looking for).

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

Couple of thoughts, OP: interesting experiment but while really any anonymous venue on the net will allow people's biases or prejudices to come out, I dont know that hookup sites are the best way to gauge "racism", as I believe people can sign up on a personals or hookup site looking for a specific type they're attracted to, while not being a racist individual who then logs off and refuses to hire people of certain races or supporting unequal treatment of them in society. This experiment might have been better framed in terms of investigating how racial appearance is sexualized (or not sexualized) and how it is sexualized, rather than "investigating racism." And any anonymous venue like I said would be a pretty good way to get a sample of how people's prejudice can manifest in a way that might not offline, but I'm not sure that leaping to presume people's personal interest (or lack) in a certain racial group tells you something about their views on racism is accurate. It's probably more of a starting point from which you could talk about how influences in western culture, particularly revolving around beauty standards, social perception of groups and such, help to form biases for or against certain groups in terms of selecting sex partners.

All of that being said, it's still an interesting experiment you did.

Originally Posted by Harke the Boeotarch

Let's all jump in front of a moving train because someone on the internet behaves like an arsehole...

This presupposes that widespread trends you can see in terms of what groups experience due to race just come down to one person being nice and another person being a dick, which is a ridiculous oversimplification and wouldn't explain how so consistently some groups are viewed as better or more desirable in a given society, and some are consistently viewed as undesirable. Those trends are created by social influences all of us are exposed to virtually our whole life in terms of the things listed above, and have absolutely nothing to do with one individual is a dick.

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

Originally Posted by DigitalFudge

I fucked up applying my side eye/shady look "" on the first line of my previous post before ya'll come for me. It was a joke.

Smh, black people. Keep something in mind though, Refuji: I, had nothing but white friends from age 12-14. Was it because I hated black people? No, it was because I was placed in a fucking Catholic School. Nearly jumped off the roof, tbqh.

I'm sure plenty of people just looked at me how you would and thought "The hell?" sometimes you truly are a product of your environment.

Now I've completly done a 180 and I'm trying to scoop up some white friends

But only if they look like Channing Tatum/Bfizzle/Cupid Boy tbqh

that's something entirely different altogether. you're talking about something that is beyond your control. that's just the way it is. you certainly weren't aware of those issues as a kid where you were thinking about "black people, white people" and etc. you learn about it over time because it's brought to your attention. i'm sure that is how you were introduced to the whole racism and prejudical issues. you learn about it from either your environment, the people around you, and etc. i NEVER knew about racism, sexism, homophobia and etc until it was brought to my attention when i was growing up as in someone introduced it to me. otherwise, i would have been living under a rock the whole time.

the crazy thing is looking back at it now. all these things were always there BUT i didn't realize it as i was ignorant towards the way of the world in that sense to the reasons behind people's hatred. even the school that i spent my 1st to 8th grade years in was affected by racism. there were no black teachers. all of the student body was black. the education quality was poor and there were little to no programs for the students. it was also a private school too. what was crazy about it is that there used to be programs in the school when the majority of students there were white BUT as the student body became black as did the whole entire neighborhood, the education quality as well as the programs went down the drain. so we pretty much weren't given a good quality education as say the kids in more well off school which was controlled by the same school district. what's crazy is that they ended up shutting down my school and merging it with something else because our school was that fucked up. i wasn't ignorant however when it came to hate though as i learned from an early age of what hate was from the people around me as well as violence.

Last edited by refujiunderground; February 14th, 2013 at 12:13 PM.

one thing about the closet/you don't have to hurry/it will be bad tomorrow/so brother, don't you worry

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

I only took part in the portion that involved the internet. Frankly, because it was the least time consuming and easiest to do. I do have a job and a husband to juggle. But there were other things taken into account of the behalf of the person conducting it. Different gay "societies" were contacted or visited, gay bars explored, gay friendly businesses in and around the maritime provinces, and research into other experiments of the same nature. He also interviewed gay students of ethnic minorities from five of the university campuses in New Brunswick.

And if you read through my entire post and not just skim the first paragraph, you'll see that looks were specifically taken out of the equation. Most of the profiles used did not have pictures and those that did used the same generic pictures of a flexed arm, or flexed abs... just slightly different skin tones. So there goes that theory.

I'll admit, I was surprised by most of what I experienced myself. I wasn't totally shocked... I expected certain preferences. But thre is a stark difference between someone telling you, "I'm sorry. I'm not interested." and "I am not interested because you are a lazy Mexican." That was shocking to me.

Or when you talk to the same person twice, tell them all the same things, but they are much less interested when you are not white. And if you mention racism to any of those guys as a white person; calm, cool and collected discussion. Mention racism as a black person and you get really rude or just stupid replies back.

racism is real. i experience it every day, i live with it every day. there are no easy answers. i cant point out easy solutions. and i probably was part of it myself sometimes. but what really makes me angry...

Originally Posted by Harke the Boeotarch

Let's all jump in front of a moving train because someone on the internet behaves like an arsehole...

Originally Posted by moniker

Preferring one race over another in the looks department is not racism but simply preference,

... is when clueless, priviledged people try to dismiss and downplay my experiences, and my pain. i dont understand how people can be so disrespecful of other peoples experiences and pain. it just makes me so angry.

racism is real. i experience it every day, i live with it every day. there are no easy answers. i cant point out easy solutions. and i probably was part of it myself sometimes. but what really makes me angry...

... is when clueless, priviledged people try to dismiss and downplay my experiences, and my pain. i dont understand how people can be so disrespecful of other peoples experiences and pain. it just makes me so angry.

racism is real. i experience it every day, i live with it every day. there are no easy answers. i cant point out easy solutions. and i probably was part of it myself sometimes. but what really makes me angry...

It's definitely real, and definitely part of the gay community. However I consider "a particular guy wasn't interested in me" to be an extremely problematic foundation upon which to base it. There's plenty of more pertinent examples, even here on JUB, but it tends to be in topics most people here are happy to say "Oh I ignored that thread, didn't want to touch it with a 10 foot pole."

... is when clueless, priviledged people try to dismiss and downplay my experiences, and my pain. i dont understand how people can be so disrespecful of other peoples experiences and pain. it just makes me so angry.

Definitely true. Reducing racism or prejudice in society into just "oh well some people individually are stupid" really presupposes it goes every which way equally just based on individual intelligence. You can find pro-white bias even in minority people who grew up in a society which presented white as the more respectable group, the more productive group, the more successful group and as the 'more beautiful group' through a lifetime of imagery. Even just presenting white as "the norm" imparts a bias. That's why you'll very rarely here something like "oh my WHITE friend Mike.."

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

one thing that is overlooked is that threads like these are geared towards white people that are prejudiced and overlook other groups such as blacks, asians and nonwhites who also have issues dealing with nonwhites where they won't associate themselves with nonwhites. you know, i've literally seen some gay black and asian guys do this. hell, look @ some of the gay nonwhite guys they've cast on the real world. they don't want shit to do with folks that look like them even on a friend level.

Last edited by refujiunderground; February 14th, 2013 at 02:34 PM.

one thing about the closet/you don't have to hurry/it will be bad tomorrow/so brother, don't you worry

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

Originally Posted by hylas

...... is when clueless, priviledged people try to dismiss and downplay my experiences, and my pain. i dont understand how people can be so disrespecful of other peoples experiences and pain. it just makes me so angry.

Have you talked to those other people about their pain? Lots of people have it but don't discuss it.

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

Originally Posted by hylas

racism is real. i experience it every day, i live with it every day. there are no easy answers. i cant point out easy solutions. and i probably was part of it myself sometimes. but what really makes me angry...

... is when clueless, priviledged people try to dismiss and downplay my experiences, and my pain. i dont understand how people can be so disrespecful of other peoples experiences and pain. it just makes me so angry.

How can I downplay and disrespect your experiences when I don't know what they are?

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

There was another thread here when a JUBber was seething with his pain.

He told me his pain was caused by his being a minority. And when I quizzed him he said he spent big money to live in another country where he knew he would be living as a minority.

Let us recall your exact quote.

You chose it.

I Know that I wouldn't be putting myself through the agony and privation of operating in a country with alien cultures and language. I certainly wouldn't be expecting my hosts to kowtow to my personal needs. And, frankly, I don't believe your first sentence.

In Pat's world, bigoted remarks are entirely your own fault for existing as a minority in a given society... but people are usually lying when they say they hear them at all.

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

Originally Posted by xbuzzerx

It's definitely real, and definitely part of the gay community. However I consider "a particular guy wasn't interested in me" to be an extremely problematic foundation upon which to base it. There's plenty of more pertinent examples, even here on JUB, but it tends to be in topics most people here are happy to say "Oh I ignored that thread, didn't want to touch it with a 10 foot pole."

Yep, as long there are those that continue to pretend like this is a non-issue is as long as most black gay and bisexuals will continue to ignore the cries of homophobia by the predominately white gay establishment in the US. Read any black LGBT blog and site like BGCLive or Rod 2.0 and those sites' posters display of annoyance and disgust toward this behavior is proof enough.

In other words, racism and racial prejudices will be the ultimate undoing of the LGBT movement in this world...

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

Originally Posted by pat grimshaw

that's the issue. Expecting any given society around the world to pander to the emotional needs of an individual's pain. We live in democracies where the government has to prioritise the needs and the 'pains' of the people.

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

Originally Posted by Harke the Boeotarch

How can I downplay and disrespect your experiences when I don't know what they are?

its a pattern... i see it again and again, and i see it in your comment. someone (usually a person of colour, but in this case, its a white guy who made some effort to put himself in the shoes of a POC) points out the rampant racism. some (usually white) guy dismisses it immediately; in your case by saying that it was just an isolated incident ("someone on the internet behaving like an arsehole")... eventhough the OP makes it very clear that it isnt an isolated incident, but a pattern that can be observed across many instances on several websites. you go on and imply that people are overreacting ("lets all jump in front of a train"). let me tell you: its not the white guys place to decide whether or not POC are "overreacting" about racism.

your comment downplays racism (by saying that its not that big a deal, it was an isolated incident, people are overreacting), and is therefore disrespectful towards people who actually experience racism.

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

Originally Posted by hylas

its a pattern... i see it again and again, and i see it in your comment. someone (usually a person of colour, but in this case, its a white guy who made some effort to put himself in the shoes of a POC) points out the rampant racism. some (usually white) guy dismisses it immediately; in your case by saying that it was just an isolated incident ("someone on the internet behaving like an arsehole")... eventhough the OP makes it very clear that it isnt an isolated incident, but a pattern that can be observed across many instances on several websites. you go on and imply that people are overreacting ("lets all jump in front of a train"). let me tell you: its not the white guys place to decide whether or not POC are "overreacting" about racism.

your comment downplays racism (by saying that its not that big a deal, it was an isolated incident, people are overreacting), and is therefore disrespectful towards people who actually experience racism.

*takes off explanatory hat*
*puts rage hat back on*

grrrrrrrrrr

Basically, nobody has time for that type of condescending and dismissive attitude.

Honestly, he would be lucky somebody hasn't already punched him in the face for being such a dick...

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

Originally Posted by hylas

its a pattern... i see it again and again, and i see it in your comment. someone (usually a person of colour, but in this case, its a white guy who made some effort to put himself in the shoes of a POC) points out the rampant racism. some (usually white) guy dismisses it immediately; in your case by saying that it was just an isolated incident ("someone on the internet behaving like an arsehole")... eventhough the OP makes it very clear that it isnt an isolated incident, but a pattern that can be observed across many instances on several websites. you go on and imply that people are overreacting ("lets all jump in front of a train"). let me tell you: its not the white guys place to decide whether or not POC are "overreacting" about racism.

your comment downplays racism (by saying that its not that big a deal, it was an isolated incident, people are overreacting), and is therefore disrespectful towards people who actually experience racism.

*takes off explanatory hat*
*puts rage hat back on*

grrrrrrrrrr

you hit the nail on the head.

one thing about the closet/you don't have to hurry/it will be bad tomorrow/so brother, don't you worry

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

Originally Posted by Nishin

An interesting experiment, which I would have liked taking part to, if I only were capable of faking personality/interest...
Your findings are not surprising at all though, there as another thread a few months ago with results from a large study on the same topic...
So once you've gathered/collected facts and drew conclusions, what's next though?…

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

I read the whole thing and very interesting findings. I am in a situation where I live very close to people of all races and we all get along because of the job. So I am a little disconnected from the rest of the world on this. But I am really starting to change my views on the long debated JUB topic of race/preference. I have always come down on the side on preference, and me being a black man, but I am starting to think there is a lot of residual racism that seeps into these preferences. As someone pointed out, JUB is all about political correctness. So the idea that you have a preference to a certain race could somehow mean you are a little racist will instantly offend a person.

I personally wont get into the debate this time. I Just wanted to give my two cents.

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

First it should be pointed out that it was necessarily a small sampling which no statistician would regard as adequate. The people doing the survey are strongly disapproving of racism, doing a survey expecting to find it. They often did, but when they did not they often found objectivization and fetishism. To avoid disapproval, one would have needed to walk a very narrow path. Did they do a white to white control group? They might have found similar incidents of epithets, with racial words, and they might have found similar levels of objectivization and fetishism.

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

On the preference vs. racism thing, it does seem racist to me rather than preference.

It is fascinating to read the results of this experiment at the intersection of ethnicity and sexuality. I think it would be interesting to repeat the experiment, but set up to show the experience of sexual minorities on dating sites directed to particular ethnic groups.

Also, I hope information like this is used to support anti-racism awareness and advocacy. I have observed that one of the most counterproductive things anti-racists can do is to fail to understand the difference between these two sentences:

The former slave states are still racist.
The former slave states still have more racists than other places.

One sentence is accurate. The other makes a false accusation against non-racists from that part of the world, and alienates them. If you alienate non-racists, you waste the opportunity to cultivate an anti-racist.

I hope that will be taken into consideration before publication, as opposed to the hyperbolic language of the OP which levels condemnation at entire regions of the US and Canada.

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

Good research... However your findings do not surprise me in the least.

This quote from your post resonated with me because I've contended the same notion for years.

"Our second observation was that thet next two highest races on the desirability heirarchy were there in a negative placement. They were there for fetish reasons more than anything. Black men were fetished and objectified predominantly by white men"

^^^ This has been my only problem with Black Men who choose to "only" date White Men. Even though the evidence it clear as the cock in their mouths, they refuse to believe that their White lover may be a racist homo.

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

Originally Posted by hylas

its a pattern... i see it again and again, and i see it in your comment. someone (usually a person of colour, but in this case, its a white guy who made some effort to put himself in the shoes of a POC) points out the rampant racism. some (usually white) guy dismisses it immediately; in your case by saying that it was just an isolated incident ("someone on the internet behaving like an arsehole")... eventhough the OP makes it very clear that it isnt an isolated incident, but a pattern that can be observed across many instances on several websites. you go on and imply that people are overreacting ("lets all jump in front of a train"). let me tell you: its not the white guys place to decide whether or not POC are "overreacting" about racism.

your comment downplays racism (by saying that its not that big a deal, it was an isolated incident, people are overreacting), and is therefore disrespectful towards people who actually experience racism.

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

Originally Posted by Apollo

I read the whole thing and very interesting findings. I am in a situation where I live very close to people of all races and we all get along because of the job. So I am a little disconnected from the rest of the world on this. But I am really starting to change my views on the long debated JUB topic of race/preference. I have always come down on the side on preference, and me being a black man, but I am starting to think there is a lot of residual racism that seeps into these preferences. As someone pointed out, JUB is all about political correctness. So the idea that you have a preference to a certain race could somehow mean you are a little racist will instantly offend a person.

I personally wont get into the debate this time. I Just wanted to give my two cents.

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

Well said, Hard up1, but you should leave open the possibility that the preference for whites is NOT necessarily because they are here the dominant culture. People are attractive if people think they are attractive. It is subjective, but there are some characteristics which are widely thought to be attractive. Are blonde women with nice breasts considered more attractive in Japan or China or other countries where they are not the dominant culture? Are lighter skinned Indians in India considered more attractive? Perhaps it is in part that lighter are more rare. There may be cultures where young people are not considered more attractive, but in most of the world young is more attractive. Nicely formed breasts make a woman more attractive for most men. Broad shoulders and narrow waists on men are generally considered more attractive. Some of this may be hard wired as related to health, reproductive ability and ability to protect and provide.
But, some characteristics are widely considered to be more sexually attractive, unrelated to social or economic factors, such as the "dominant culture".

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

Originally Posted by Hard-up1

More interesting is the anger already seen in the thread (...) to adopt a angry victim mentality is to guarantee marginalization. One might rally sympathy or a small following for a radical fringe identity, but the winning strategy is constructive engagement

yeah, why do them POC have to be so angry about racism? if they could only, like, chill the fuck out about it already. would make things so much easier.

easier for whom, i wonder.

fortunately, we heave people who may not be the target of racism, and therefore dont know how it feels or what it is like, but still seem to have a lot of expertise about how it should be dealt with... and are not shy about sharing their wisdom. so lucky!

[/sarcasm]

as for your long-winded and fancy-worded attempt to point out how the experiment is flawed: when i read the OP, what i see is a white guy putting himself in the shoes of a POC, and describing his experiences. yeah: hook-up sites dont represent the entire gay community... hook-up sites invite objectification... hip-hop culture is anti-feminist (huh?)... beyonce is successful and polular (huh?????)... all of which is relevant how exactly? accoring to the OP, the white profile gets more and different responses than the otherwise equal black profile... accross the board. which corresponds with my personal experience. no science, no statistics, just sharing experiences and observations. maybe you should take that as food for thought, instead of defensively trying to relativize it.

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

Oh, where is my fiddle to play it while reading that long-winded dribble about "how angry and violent those damn coloreds are" and "how this experiment is flawed by the experimenter's confirmation bias"? Yeah, coming from the poster with a confirmation bias as broad as the day is long. Boy, don't you have you love those types and their predictable responses (with pretty window dressing).

Uh oh, I think we have began to threaten something of privilege with this thread...

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

I could write a book on this topic, but sadly I doubt it would change anything for most gay men.

Indians (South Asians) fare the worst in the gay community, even worse than Black gay men & other Asians...

Some of the worst hypocrites are some white gay men who call themselves "liberal." They usually love to talk about how they voted for Obama (twice), they praise Black civil rights leaders like MLK & Rosa Parks, and these white gay men often come from small towns in the South & Midwest. They move to places like San Francisco & New York & Chicago to be more "accepted" and in a place with more "diversity." They're always politically correct, and are quick to call other people "racist".

Yet, if you notice who almost all their friends are, who they chat with online & at the gay clubs, who they hook up & date, and who they take to brunch on Sunday morning..........they're all white gay men!!! Where is this so-called "diversity" they love?

Interracial dating is still rare for white gay men. Gay men of color are much more willing to date outside their race, and often do.

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

Would you date me because I look and sound exotic, and where I come from, you think we still live in zinc houses and speak a foreign language (that can be made fun of). Or, for my personality?

Maybe the mainstream media has us believe that the ideal beauty is a man with perfect aquiline nose, sparkly blue eyes, spotlessly shaved/trimmed face and a megawatt smile. Maybe that is why us ethnic minorities seem to fare much less than Caucasians?

JayQueer, I don't think that South Indians fare any worst than East or South East Asians to be honest. I've had less luck getting hit on than my British Indian friend when we go out.

"... You think the only people who are people
Are the people who look and think like you ..." - Colours of the Wind by Vanessa Williams

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

I could write a book on this topic, but sadly I doubt it would change anything for most gay men.

Indians (South Asians) fare the worst in the gay community, even worse than Black gay men & other Asians...

Some of the worst hypocrites are some white gay men who call themselves "liberal." They usually love to talk about how they voted for Obama (twice), they praise Black civil rights leaders like MLK & Rosa Parks, and these white gay men often come from small towns in the South & Midwest. They move to places like San Francisco & New York & Chicago to be more "accepted" and in a place with more "diversity." They're always politically correct, and are quick to call other people "racist".

Yet, if you notice who almost all their friends are, who they chat with online & at the gay clubs, who they hook up & date, and who they take to brunch on Sunday morning..........they're all white gay men!!! Where is this so-called "diversity" they love?

Interracial dating is still rare for white gay men. Gay men of color are much more willing to date outside their race, and often do.

Do East Indians enjoy themselves more when they are together? Do you feel less comfortable in a group of whites? I think most people enjoy being with people of the same background with whom they have more in common; language, slang, values, problems, humor, in short, culture. It is not racism or hostility to others, and should not be seen as such. It does not help that many minorities are hypersensitive or prickly. Whites often feel that they have to be super careful because almost any comment can be interpreted to have a racist aspect. The OP's tight wire between racism, objectivization and fetishization is an example. Many minority members take courses in black history and the like which teach them to see racism where whites may not see or intend it. But it and their response drive the wedge further.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by JayQueer

I could write a book on this topic, but sadly I doubt it would change anything for most gay men.

Indians (South Asians) fare the worst in the gay community, even worse than Black gay men & other Asians...

Some of the worst hypocrites are some white gay men who call themselves "liberal." They usually love to talk about how they voted for Obama (twice), they praise Black civil rights leaders like MLK & Rosa Parks, and these white gay men often come from small towns in the South & Midwest. They move to places like San Francisco & New York & Chicago to be more "accepted" and in a place with more "diversity." They're always politically correct, and are quick to call other people "racist".

Yet, if you notice who almost all their friends are, who they chat with online & at the gay clubs, who they hook up & date, and who they take to brunch on Sunday morning..........they're all white gay men!!! Where is this so-called "diversity" they love?

Interracial dating is still rare for white gay men. Gay men of color are much more willing to date outside their race, and often do.

Do East Indians enjoy themselves more when they are together? Do you feel less comfortable in a group of whites? I think most people enjoy being with people of the same background with whom they have more in common; language, slang, values, problems, humor, in short, culture. It is not racism or hostility to others, and should not be seen as such. It does not help that many minorities are hypersensitive or prickly. Whites often feel that they have to be super careful because almost any comment can be interpreted to have a racist aspect. The OP's tight wire between racism, objectivization and fetishization is an example. Many minority members take courses in black history and the like which teach them to see racism where whites may not see or intend it. But it and their response drive the wedge further.

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

Originally Posted by Benvolio

Well said, Hard up1, but you should leave open the possibility that the preference for whites is NOT necessarily because they are here the dominant culture. People are attractive if people think they are attractive. It is subjective, but there are some characteristics which are widely thought to be attractive. Are blonde women with nice breasts considered more attractive in Japan or China or other countries where they are not the dominant culture? Are lighter skinned Indians in India considered more attractive? Perhaps it is in part that lighter are more rare. There may be cultures where young people are not considered more attractive, but in most of the world young is more attractive. Nicely formed breasts make a woman more attractive for most men. Broad shoulders and narrow waists on men are generally considered more attractive. Some of this may be hard wired as related to health, reproductive ability and ability to protect and provide.
But, some characteristics are widely considered to be more sexually attractive, unrelated to social or economic factors, such as the "dominant culture".

No. In areas of the world undominated by the "dominant western beauty standard", including parts of India and parts of Africa, lighter skinned people are not considered more attractive as any kind of universal human norm, and in fact, in parts of India the beauty standard is the reverse of the west: large-built, curvy women of dark skin are the beauty standard.

There are little snippets of true statements without proper context throughout your post, but on the whole what you're saying is that a global or national culture embracing a particular beauty standard in its advertisements or imagery has absolutely no effect, and that everyone is simply selecting for the same universally more appealing traits. Nearly all of the traits that do have a function pertinent to successful childbirthing/evolutionary survival do not belong to any one particular race and in fact many of them (wide hips for example) are not part of the dominant western beauty standard.

Re: My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

I could write a book on this topic, but sadly I doubt it would change anything for most gay men.

Indians (South Asians) fare the worst in the gay community, even worse than Black gay men & other Asians...

Some of the worst hypocrites are some white gay men who call themselves "liberal." They usually love to talk about how they voted for Obama (twice), they praise Black civil rights leaders like MLK & Rosa Parks, and these white gay men often come from small towns in the South & Midwest. They move to places like San Francisco & New York & Chicago to be more "accepted" and in a place with more "diversity." They're always politically correct, and are quick to call other people "racist".

Yet, if you notice who almost all their friends are, who they chat with online & at the gay clubs, who they hook up & date, and who they take to brunch on Sunday morning..........they're all white gay men!!! Where is this so-called "diversity" they love?

Interracial dating is still rare for white gay men. Gay men of color are much more willing to date outside their race, and often do.

not to put you on blast but i've seen you many times on here say that you wouldn't date someone that isn't white. if you yourself wouldn't date someone that isn't white, how could you call out other people that do the same thing? wouldn't you be basically talking about yourself?

i don't get why nonwhites complain about white guys not dating them when they themselves don't date anybody who isn't white. when is the hypocrisy gonna stop? sometimes, i feel that some nonwhite guys are complaining about this issue because they want a white guy in their life but haven't been able to get one. i mean damn, is it really that serious? they want to rant about why other people make color matter but color matters to them too as well. they're ready to call other people out on it but they themselves can't admit that they're the same too.

when i talk about racism in the lgbt community, i'm not just talking about in the dating department. i'm talking about everything since it's widespread.

Last edited by refujiunderground; February 15th, 2013 at 11:13 AM.

one thing about the closet/you don't have to hurry/it will be bad tomorrow/so brother, don't you worry