Me too. However, Creative cards are more for gamers; audio lovers typically go for M-Audio or something like that. I don't think you will hear much difference if you use a "typical" computer speaker. Now if you take a digital output from the sound card and connect to a decent stereo, that's different.

FWIW, I still use the old Quad 57 electrostatic loudspeakers. Quirky as hell, and very directional, but they still sound great.

Hmm. That one is not listed on the Antec site. Maybe its an EU thing. You should look as a minimum for compliant grommets to mount the hard drives; most Antec cases have them. Otherwise, they usually are pretty decent. I've mentioned that I like the P150/Solo (without PS); it is on sale here at Fry's for $69 at the moment. I know that's not an option for you.

As to your other points:
1. Integrated HDA: as I just wrote in reply to DrJ's post: its my experience that integrated audio doesn't do Digital Sound Processing very well, so I thought, lets just take a separate audio card (I'm a bit of an audio freak ).

Old integrated soundcards were very bad generally, today's ones are very good, I use Integrated Intel HDA (from Intel Q35 motherboard) with my Pioneer A107 amplifier and Technics RP-F290 headphones and quality is very good for me, also attached speakers (to that Pioneer) do the job.

IMHO: Buy only your motherboard and if you will not be happy with it, then add a Creative card.

Quote:

2. DVD-rom + DVD-RW: I've been told DVD-RW will die faster when you also use it for ROM only.

This is also rather old "tip", I have used mine old PATA DVD-RW (LG) for about 1.5 years, then gave it to my girlfriend and it still works without any problems, I currently use SATA DVD-RW (LG) drive which also works great.

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3. PSU: thank you, but taking into account then 'to be on the safe side' as DrJ wrote, 500W seems the smart thing to do?

__________________religions, worst damnation of mankind"If 386BSD had been available when I started on Linux, Linux would probably never had happened." Linus TorvaldsLinux is not UNIX! Face it! It is not an insult. It is fact: GNU is a recursive acronym for “GNU's Not UNIX”.vermaden's:linksresourcesdeviantartspreadbsd

Hmm. That one is not listed on the Antec site. Maybe its an EU thing. You should look as a minimum for compliant grommets to mount the hard drives; most Antec cases have them. Otherwise, they usually are pretty decent. I've mentioned that I like the P150/Solo (without PS); it is on sale here at Fry's for $69 at the moment. I know that's not an option for you.

The Antec 4080 (Or was it 4800?) is the same as the Antec 4000, only difference is that the 4080 comes with a 380W power supply.

Personally, I would choose the Antec case just because it looks nice ...

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today's ones are very good, I use Integrated Intel HDA (from Intel Q35 motherboard) with my Pioneer A107 amplifier and Technics RP-F290 headphones and quality is very good for me, also attached speakers (to that Pioneer) do the job.

I agree, I'm not a audiophile, but on-board sound has always been good for me.

Quote:

Carpetsmoker has also suggested a HDD, the Western digital Caviar 500GB 16MB Raid Edition, which seems to be completely different from the 'normal' WD retail HDDs (of which I am not too fond).

They are not ``completly different'' from normal Caviar drives, just of much better build quality, and they support a few features that normal caviar drives don't (Like NCQ).

__________________
UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things.

Hmm. That one is not listed on the Antec site. Maybe its an EU thing. You should look as a minimum for compliant grommets to mount the hard drives; most Antec cases have them. Otherwise, they usually are pretty decent. I've mentioned that I like the P150/Solo (without PS); it is on sale here at Fry's for $69 at the moment. I know that's not an option for you.

Well, the thing is, I have always sworn by Seagate. I have some external USB-disks that were on sale and are non-Seagate; 1 Maxtor and 1 WD, and both perform way less than the Seagate disks in my PCs and in my LaCie external disks. But, then again, the Seagate-bug is definitely something I want to avoid, so, as much as it saddens me, that would mean exit Seagate. Btw, the 7200.12 you mentioned isn't guaranteed to not have the bug (according to the Seagate forum, http://forums.seagate.com/stx/board/...thread.id=4933), so I think I better play safe.

So I was looking at the WD RE3 that Carpetsmoker recommended, but in the above drive tests you mention the RE's aren't really 'the fastest' ones. So this would be a tradeoff between speed and reliability (reliability being most important of course to me, but then again, reliability at the cost of an utterly slow HDD is also not ideal.

These WD Black editions, are these the so-called 'standard consumer disks' that Carpetsmoker talked about, which are 'less'?

Quote:

Originally Posted by vermaden

Old integrated soundcards were very bad generally, today's ones are very good, I use Integrated Intel HDA (from Intel Q35 motherboard) with my Pioneer A107 amplifier and Technics RP-F290 headphones and quality is very good for me, also attached speakers (to that Pioneer) do the job.

IMHO: Buy only your motherboard and if you will not be happy with it, then add a Creative card.

I will take your word on it: the sound car is out :-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by vermaden

This is also rather old "tip", I have used mine old PATA DVD-RW (LG) for about 1.5 years, then gave it to my girlfriend and it still works without any problems, I currently use SATA DVD-RW (LG) drive which also works great.

Again, I will take your word for it: the DVD-Rom player is out also :-)

I originally picked the Seasonic S12II 430W. Seasonic based on the recommendations in this thread, and the 430W was initial but I planned to change that to the 500W again based on your feedback.

But...():
1. On reading this on the Seasonic website: http://www.seasonic.com/new/twevent20081002.htm
2. I asked the vendor if the S12II-500 they offered was a genuine retail S12II-500 or an OEM.
3. Next you know, this morning, both the S12II-500 and the S12II-430 are no longer on the website (). Well, I guess, that's my answer to my question
4. Now 3 is not a problem per se, however, the remaining PSU's of Seasonic are quite expensive: http://www.pcmegastore.nl/catalog/de...&filter_id=393
5. When I asked them to create an offer, they already recommend a different brand to me (OCZ), because they said 'cheaper and better'.
6. On checking that brand out I learned that Seasonic actually is an OEM for OCZ sometimes, but then again, I've also learned that Seasonic makes to the specifications of OCZ, meaning Seasonic inside doesn't necessarily mean the same quality as original retail Seasonic itself.

So, here I am: the 'real' retail Seasonics remaining on the website suddenly are quite expensive, so I am thinking of moving away from Seasonic. That leaves me, again, with a search for another PSU. Of course, 80plus-certified, but then a good quality and not so expensive as Seasonic.

Well, the thing is, I have always sworn by Seagate. I have some external USB-disks that were on sale and are non-Seagate; 1 Maxtor and 1 WD, and both perform way less than the Seagate disks in my PCs and in my LaCie external disks.

Maxtor is Seagate currently, it has been bought by Seagate sometime ago.

Quote:

But, then again, the Seagate-bug is definitely something I want to avoid, so, as much as it saddens me, that would mean exit Seagate. Btw, the 7200.12 you mentioned isn't guaranteed to not have the bug (according to the Seagate forum, http://forums.seagate.com/stx/board/...thread.id=4933), so I think I better play safe.

Currently I have LG GSA-H60N (SATA), but generally any new SATA LG will do, check reviews @ http://newegg.com

Also 430W Seasonic PSU will do here without any problem, I have recently created (for gaming - for my family), a box with Intel e2160 CPU + ASUS 965G motherboard + 2GB RAM + GeForce 9600GSO + HDD + DVDRW and Mode Com Feel III 350W does the job without any problems there (works for about half a year now).

OCZ PSU are also not bad.

Quote:

Picking hardware is depressing

It just requires knowledge and experience = some amount of time, bigger then smaller

__________________religions, worst damnation of mankind"If 386BSD had been available when I started on Linux, Linux would probably never had happened." Linus TorvaldsLinux is not UNIX! Face it! It is not an insult. It is fact: GNU is a recursive acronym for “GNU's Not UNIX”.vermaden's:linksresourcesdeviantartspreadbsd

Currently I have LG GSA-H60N (SATA), but generally any new SATA LG will do, check reviews @ http://newegg.com

Also 430W Seasonic PSU will do here without any problem, I have recently created (for gaming - for my family), a box with Intel e2160 CPU + ASUS 965G motherboard + 2GB RAM + GeForce 9600GSO + HDD + DVDRW and Mode Com Feel III 350W does the job without any problems there (works for about half a year now).

OCZ PSU are also not bad.

It just requires knowledge and experience = some amount of time, bigger then smaller

(The pricedifference is the Antec case with integrated PSU is 10 EUR cheaper, so that's not relevant. It would be merely a matter of which one is to be considered the best quality, both from a technical/reliability perspective and from a 'future expansion' perspective).

On the grommet comment: in the old days, hard drives were mounted with screws directly into the case. The issue is that hard drives vibrate, and the small drive vibration is coupled through the mounting to the rest of the case. The large flat sides are wonderful resonators. Consequently, the amount of noise the computer makes goes way up.

This bothers me a lot. I like silent computers. Not everyone cares about this, but if you do, you should look to minimize case vibrations induced by the hard drives. One way to do that is to screw the drive to the case (or drive sled) through a flexible grommet. That lessens the amount of vibration that reaches the case. A more extreme, and very effective method, is to suspend the drive with elastic bands. The Solo models derived from the P150 do this, and it works very well. (They also have the soft grommet mounting method too.) The Antec you cited doesn't have suspension, but does have soft mounting.

I've used both the 520W Corsair (made by Seasonic) and the 500W Antec (I don't recall who made this one for Antec). I really like the Corsair. Solid, quiet, detachable cables, and very stable. The 500W performs well enough, but makes an odd noise (coil whine) that is irritating. I probably could have had it replaced, as this is a common power supply defect. I didn't, because the noise did not bother my customer (my wife). They have the reputation for being decent supplies for the price. This one also has fixed cables that you have to put somewhere, so it is less convenient to work with.

So I think either would be fine, but I personally would go for the Corsair. It should add that it has been about a year since I've looked in detail at power supplies, and like disks, the model line-up and the OEM changes. Personally I'd avoid CWT (Channelwell) as an OEM -- not that there is anything wrong with them, I just prefer the Seasonic-derived units overall.

The Solo case you cite is derived from the first case designed expressly for quiet operation. It is fine, and you can often find them on sale for a good price. It has side-mounted drives: if you have the case open, the drives on their sleds pull out towards you, instead of to the back of the case or out the front. That's a nice feature (I have a similar layout on three computers in different cases), but honestly I don't pull drives that often. The rest is OK, and if you like the looks of it, you can build a quiet computer using it. I've just preferred the P150-derived series; I think it looks better, does not have a front door covering the CDs, and it has the drive suspension system.

Antec does often give very good prices on their combined case/power supply packages, so you may well save quite some money going this route.

My observation about SATA drives recently has been that Seagate does not perform quite as well as its competition, but has had longer warranties and some people claim that their error checking is better. Most of my drives are still SCSIs, so I don't follow the SATA drive market that closely. But do trust techreport -- they are very good. So is Vermaden.

Oh, and the PATA DVD-RW I bought seven years ago is still working fine, as is the one I bought 5 years ago. Both have been used heavily, and show no signs of failing.

Rather than despairing over all of the hardware choices, you should rejoice! There are a lot of fine options available to craft a system exactly as you want. This does take some work, but the upside is that you will get a system that is fast, reliable, quiet and will last a long time. You should also be able to overclock you CPUs with the heat sink you are using to get performance that will be comparable to a prebuilt unit at about the same price. What's not to like?

On the grommet comment: in the old days, hard drives were mounted with screws directly into the case. The issue is that hard drives vibrate, and the small drive vibration is coupled through the mounting to the rest of the case. The large flat sides are wonderful resonators. Consequently, the amount of noise the computer makes goes way up.

This bothers me a lot. I like silent computers. Not everyone cares about this, but if you do, you should look to minimize case vibrations induced by the hard drives. One way to do that is to screw the drive to the case (or drive sled) through a flexible grommet. That lessens the amount of vibration that reaches the case. A more extreme, and very effective method, is to suspend the drive with elastic bands. The Solo models derived from the P150 do this, and it works very well. (They also have the soft grommet mounting method too.) The Antec you cited doesn't have suspension, but does have soft mounting.

I've used both the 520W Corsair (made by Seasonic) and the 500W Antec (I don't recall who made this one for Antec). I really like the Corsair. Solid, quiet, detachable cables, and very stable. The 500W performs well enough, but makes an odd noise (coil whine) that is irritating. I probably could have had it replaced, as this is a common power supply defect. I didn't, because the noise did not bother my customer (my wife). They have the reputation for being decent supplies for the price. This one also has fixed cables that you have to put somewhere, so it is less convenient to work with.

So I think either would be fine, but I personally would go for the Corsair. It should add that it has been about a year since I've looked in detail at power supplies, and like disks, the model line-up and the OEM changes. Personally I'd avoid CWT (Channelwell) as an OEM -- not that there is anything wrong with them, I just prefer the Seasonic-derived units overall.

The Solo case you cite is derived from the first case designed expressly for quiet operation. It is fine, and you can often find them on sale for a good price. It has side-mounted drives: if you have the case open, the drives on their sleds pull out towards you, instead of to the back of the case or out the front. That's a nice feature (I have a similar layout on three computers in different cases), but honestly I don't pull drives that often. The rest is OK, and if you like the looks of it, you can build a quiet computer using it. I've just preferred the P150-derived series; I think it looks better, does not have a front door covering the CDs, and it has the drive suspension system.

Antec does often give very good prices on their combined case/power supply packages, so you may well save quite some money going this route.

My observation about SATA drives recently has been that Seagate does not perform quite as well as its competition, but has had longer warranties and some people claim that their error checking is better. Most of my drives are still SCSIs, so I don't follow the SATA drive market that closely. But do trust techreport -- they are very good. So is Vermaden.

Oh, and the PATA DVD-RW I bought seven years ago is still working fine, as is the one I bought 5 years ago. Both have been used heavily, and show no signs of failing.

Rather than despairing over all of the hardware choices, you should rejoice! There are a lot of fine options available to craft a system exactly as you want. This does take some work, but the upside is that you will get a system that is fast, reliable, quiet and will last a long time. You should also be able to overclock you CPUs with the heat sink you are using to get performance that will be comparable to a prebuilt unit at about the same price. What's not to like?

Thank you again very much, DrJ: again, you've helped me to make a decision: I will go for the separate Corsair and the separate Antec case, I will have to check out the P150

What's not to like? I am extremely charmed by FreeBSD (extremely ), and it's sort of frustrating that it costs me so much time (really, way to much) to buy what I consider to be commodities: 'it's only hardware' (I know, this is insulting to the fine hardware engineers that do their utmost best to design quality stuff, and I don't mean to insult them. Yet again, I think I do want to insult the 'marketeers' that make it so complex to choose a piece of hardware, with their 1 zillion different models ). I'd rather have I could quickly buy a PC (as in the old days, where the questions were simple: you want an Intel386SX16 or a 'real' (copro) 386, the Intel386DX33, or even 'a monster', the AMD386DX40, and you want 20MB or 40MB, and 1 MB ram or 4 MB ram, and black and white or color VGA?), and then move on to fun stuff: FreeBSD. Now, it seems picking hardware is more difficult than learning FreeBSD

Btw: don't expect me to, after I have this PC, to post a zillion 'noob' - questions on FBSD: I've bought 2 excellent books around 1 year ago, and I plan to memorize them from begin to end, from left to right, from top to bottom, and then backwards

If only I can get this hardware stuff to be out of the way, and then, let the [s]games[/s] fun begin

Last on my list now: the HDDs. Hopefully somebody can tell me which WD would be the wise choice.

it's sort of frustrating that it costs me so much time ... to buy what I consider to be commodities ... I'd rather have I could quickly buy a PC (as in the old days)

Well, you are exploring rather fine differences between very similar products to craft something that meets your very personal requirements. You will get something in the end that really is better than a commodity computer made by one of the big manufacturers, but you certainly could have gone that route and had a good outcome. And you will have the benefit of knowing your hardware well, and why you bought it in the first place. That will help you to evaluate new things as they come along, and to fix problems as they come up.

This bothers me a lot. I like silent computers. Not everyone cares about this, but if you do, you should look to minimize case vibrations induced by the hard drives. One way to do that is to screw the drive to the case (or drive sled) through a flexible grommet. That lessens the amount of vibration that reaches the case. A more extreme, and very effective method, is to suspend the drive with elastic bands. The Solo models derived from the P150 do this, and it works very well. (They also have the soft grommet mounting method too.) The Antec you cited doesn't have suspension, but does have soft mounting.

Does this mean yoy feel the suspension is really superior to the flexible grommet (meaning: you think the flexible grommet/soft mounting is not enough?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrJ

Well, you are exploring rather fine differences between very similar products to craft something that meets your very personal requirements. You will get something in the end that really is better than a commodity computer made by one of the big manufacturers, but you certainly could have gone that route and had a good outcome. And you will have the benefit of knowing your hardware well, and why you bought it in the first place. That will help you to evaluate new things as they come along, and to fix problems as they come up.

Yes, you are right, yet, the thing is: I want to know the ins and outs of FBSD, not of my hardware

(It's the same as with my car: I bought it because it is top quality. I don't care what kind of 'piezo-injector' is inside it, I only want to enjoy driving it).

The problem was, I couldn't find a decent test of the WD RE3 500GB. Is seems I've found one now. Just for academical safety: I don't really have a clue if the tests used here (and, moreover, the testsoftware) are the right tests, but I am figuring 'since all the HDDs have been tested using the same tests, it should say something about the relative position of the disks towards eachother' (margin of error here: in case the tests are complete crap and each and every one of them doesn't measure anything usefull at all).

Main points in this test:

Quote:

We have clearly two winners: the new Western Digital RE3, which is targeted to the enterprise market, and Seagate Barracuda 7200.11, which is a mainstream product and thus the 500 GB hard disk drive that we recommend to the average user. Samsung HD502IJ in an option only if you can’t find Seagate Barracuda 7200.11. All other models should be avoided.

Quote:

Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 (ST3500320AS): This is the drive we recommend for the average user. It provides a performance higher than other mainstream units at the same price range, thus providing the best cost/benefit ratio. If you can spend a little more a better option is the new Western Digital RE3.

Quote:

# Western Digital Caviar GP (WD5000AACS): This is a “green” drive with variable rotational speed in order to save energy. We didn’t measure power consumption, so we can’t talk specifically about energy savings. Its performance was one of the worst and thus we can’t recommend this product. Don’t buy.
# Western Digital Caviar SE (WD5000AAJS): Performance worst than the majority of drives we tested, probably due to its lower buffer size (8 MB). Don’t buy.
# Western Digital Caviar SE16 (WD5000AAKS): Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 is far faster and costs the same thing. Don’t buy.
# Western Digital RE2 (WD5001ABYS): Lousy performance. Don’t buy.

Quote:

Western Digital RE3 (WD5002ABYS): This was the best drive in our review. But since it is targeted to the enterprise market – meaning it has a higher reliability – it costs more. If you are looking for an enterprise-class product, this is the one you should pick. This product is also recommended to regular users that want a higher performance and can pay a little bit more to have the fastest 500 GB drive around. Of course a VelociRaptor 300 GB will be faster, but it costs far more and you will have less storage space: if you want to have more than 300 GB you will have to buy and put two of these in RAID0, what will create a huge hole in your wallet.

So I think either would be fine, but I personally would go for the Corsair. It should add that it has been about a year since I've looked in detail at power supplies, and like disks, the model line-up and the OEM changes. Personally I'd avoid CWT (Channelwell) as an OEM -- not that there is anything wrong with them, I just prefer the Seasonic-derived units overall.

However, this is an old thread. How do you determine who is the OEM for a particular type

Moreover, it seems that these are two different PSUs (from different product lines), and I really am too much of a hardware noob to interpret what their differences imply. I've found two 'reviews', but its all abracadabra to me:

One thing that may sway your decision lies in the PCI-E power connections. The 550 has a 6 pin and a 6+2 pin for the newer 8 pin GPU's. As far as I can tell, the 520 only has two 6 pin PCI-E connectors. That's what pushed it over the edge for me. I'll be picking up the 550VX within the hour.

I'd go for the hx520, the modular cables alone make it more than worth it. Although if you don't really care how your case looks/don't have much money then go for that other one. Personally I would never buy another psu that wasn't modular.

For users looking for the absolute best performance the choice is clear, the VX550W. At $99.99 the VX550W features the better voltage regulation, higher peak efficiency, excellent DC output quality, and is the better value. For users looking for the most premium experience the choice is clear, the HX520W. At $124.99 the HX520W features the quieter sound profile, modular cables, excellent DC output quality, and is priced in line with its premium feature set.

When receiving offers the shop told me I shouldn't take Corsair but Kingston, as 'Kingston has much better compatibility with your mainboard (Asus P5Q-E) than Corsair'. So they recommended 'Kingston HyperX DDR2 4096MB PC6400 Matched Pair':

I've already found out their statement is rubbish (the QVL - Qualified Vendors List) for the mobo clearly also lists Corsair, but one question remains: should I worry about the brand? I mean, is Corsair better/worse in your opinion than Kingston?

On the Antec case you would like to buy, I'd ask CS. If he has had success using it, then by all means go for it. I tend to reuse equipment for many years, and having the extra capability of the Solo is worth it to me. For example, I am reusing one to put together a "new" computer from existing parts. It will have a bunch of SCSI drives in it, and they really vibrate like mad. The Solo will really help for that. Such a thing may not be important to you.

Bear in mind that our household and my small company have about a dozen active computers and a bunch of spares and parts. Buying things that are more long lived and flexible is important here. It may be less so for you, and that's fine.

On the power supply, modular cables help to keep things clean by using only the cables you need at the moment. If you add new components, you then add another cable. That's very convenient, but it may not be worth it to you. I also go for the most quiet components I can (SCSI drives excepted), so the noise profile is important to me. It may not be as important for you.

Also, I build these myself, so I can buy things on sale. The Solos I bought for between $50 and $60, the 520W Corsair for $70, and an Antec Designer (the Solo + Antec 500W PS) for $100. I have that flexibility. If you buy from someone else, like CS, you don't really have that option. You gain other things, of course, and for you that may be more attractive.

On the disk issue, computer people tend to make a big deal about small performance differences. I'd bet you could not tell the difference in performance between any of the SATA drives you are considering if they are of comparable vintage and rotational speed. The differences really come when you compare those drives with SCSI, SAS or the 10K RPM SATA drives like the Raptor family. Within a particular drive class, I'd look for longevity/reliability, warranty, and noise. The differences in power consumption are not that big a deal for a desktop, and the performance differences usually are not large.

Last, I think you are over-thinking your decision. One benefit with purchasing from a systems integrator like CS (you are still doing that, right?) is that they have a lot of experience. A lot more than vermaden or I likely have, since they have had the chance to work with a greater range of hardware. You are in part paying for their advice. Use it! I've known CS through the boards for many years now, and I believe him to be honest and with very good knowledge about computers. If he recommends this component or that, and it fits with your overall goals, I'd listen to him.