Getting back to nature. Most mammals including humans are set up to put on weight (stored fat) during good times to help them survive the coming winter. If there is plenty of food about you will sit around eating it and get fat. When it runs out you will stir yourselves and go hunting for more.
Humans added the intelligence to know that winter is coming and smart individuals started being a lot more active in the summer putting food by for the coming winter. We have just got too good at that and now can eat ourselves into a health crisis. This problem will self correct come peak oil.

So you agree then, that people are overweight because they eat too much.

woodburner wrote:

No I do not agree.

... then you go on to agree with me in your response :

woodburner wrote:

I have said that people eat too much because they are given hunger signals because insulin has made the fuel from the food unavailable to them. This drives them to eat more.

Can you see how that's a bit confusing?

I think the issue with carbohydrates is clouding the issue, by being too general: there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with consuming carbohydrates in moderation, as an excellent energy source. However if people are eating a lot of highly processed foods, which are often low in nutritional content while high in carbohydrates or sugars (and therefore energy), blood glucose will rise and fat storage will increase; but they won't be nutritionally satisfied. And so they'll eat more. As others have pointed out, poorer people eat more of this sort of food, because it's cheaper. Easy availability of such foods is another part of the problem.

I don't know why you're claiming an extension of insulin's action of fat storage to include deliberately causing a state of hunger; that would surely be an out-of-balance homeostatic action; and is unnecessary to explain how weight-gain comes about.

woodburner wrote:

It matters a lot what people eat. On a starvation diet ie one that does not provide all the calories expended, people will lose weight (both lean and fat people) but then if the amount of calories is returned to the amount of calories expended their weights will return to the original weight and will even overshoot. It most definitely IS about quality and not just quantity.

Actually, I said it doesn't matter what people eat as long as the essential dietary elements are there, in which case it IS about quantity, not quality.

I've spent a lot of time with highly obese people. I've seen what they eat, and drink (at least one five litre bottle of coke a day, sweet snacks at regular intervals, etc etc. Not necessarily a lot of carbs). I've seen their insulin systems shutting down due to overstimulation, and them starting on their new diabetes medications.... In their case it is a problem of quantity AND quality, but it's not just carbs that are to blame.

While I'm not against learning in any way, no one should need to read a library full of books to understand this subject well enough; surely one should be enough (unless it isn't actually fully understood, in which case it would just be a much bigger debate than this one, and a full-time occupation to keep track of)? Since you feel like you're just banging your head on the wall with me on this one: if I was to read one book on human nutrition, which would you recommend? Tell me, I'll read it, and I'll say no more on the subject until I've done so._________________Humans are a natural disaster, tidying the world to destruction and death.

The reason for reading more than one book on a subject is to see if there are contradictions in the writings. No book can be the absolute authority, and there are plenty of people who will give a book a bad review just because it disagrees with their belief. This is often done by key opinion leaders in the medical world. Robert Atkins diet book was denounced and it was said he was just interested in making loads-a-munny from his book (which he probably did), however the critics didn't mention they were were working institutions which received their funding from the likes of Mars, Coca Cola, Proctor and Gamble, Unilever etc who just happen to have a finger or two in the carbohydrate pie.

It's a subtle point people are not overweight because they eat too much, they eat too much because they are overweight. The eating is the effect, not the cause.

Incidentally, Cola is good at messing up people's heads as it contains both aspartame and caffeine. Look at the video for the explanation._________________To become an extremist, hang around with people you agree with. Cass Sunstein

It's become a bit of a 'point of honour' with me to try and be as healthy as possible. Spending time being dead has that effect on one.

So I've taken up jogging again. Am still not quite as fit as I was before last August but apparently recovering from this sort of thing is a long haul, and I shall be a lot fitter in the end.

Also, interestingly, most people in my situation (and even, of my age) are on daily meds of some complicated sort or other. I was for a while but I stopped taking them (by halving the dose first for a month and seeing what happened): no harm done.

All I take is 1/4 aspirin daily. And I probably don't need even that.

Getting back to the weight thing, there's a lass my mum knows who weighs nearly twice as much as I do and she ran a 1/2-marathon. So it's horses for courses really._________________Soyez réaliste. Demandez l'impossible.
StoriesThe Price of Time

Also, interestingly, most people in my situation (and even, of my age) are on daily meds of some complicated sort or other.

Once you're over 50, it is considered normal (by the 'health' profession) to be on some sort of medication and/or have some significant medical issues. I suppose otherwise you're of no interest to them!_________________I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker

I'm past 54 by a fair bit, and thoroughly abnormal. A non-government/non-manufacturer approved diet, and a total mistrust of pill-pushers. Don't bother about screening programmes, they only want to find something they can supply a pill for, or give you an operation you would be better off without. Just eat properly._________________To become an extremist, hang around with people you agree with. Cass Sunstein

I'm past 54 by a fair bit, and thoroughly abnormal. A non-government/non-manufacturer approved diet, and a total mistrust of pill-pushers. Don't bother about screening programmes, they only want to find something they can supply a pill for, or give you an operation you would be better off without. Just eat properly.

I could just have easily written something very similar. My wife has the same views - "I don't intend getting ill" says she, meaning let food be thy medicine etc. And yes, she is rarely ill and has bags of energy. She avoids alcohol and gets a quite reasonable amount of sleep.

Ill people = healthy businesses and vice versa._________________I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker

A good rule is to avoid buying or eating anything that contains 'ingredients' that you would never have in your food cupboards._________________I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker

Trace amounts of DNA are not really a problem. How many flies have you untintentionally swallowed, or other species in salads etc? The worst bit is the roll that it's served in. That is known to be structurally damaging._________________To become an extremist, hang around with people you agree with. Cass Sunstein

Last edited by woodburner on Thu May 19, 2016 10:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

If people ate a nutritious diet, they would be far less likely to suffer maladies which needed antibiotics. Modern diets are inadequate in nutrition._________________To become an extremist, hang around with people you agree with. Cass Sunstein

Vitamin D deficiency is endemic in Ireland because of the general lack of sun.

People, particularly as they get older, should get full blood tests done every five years and remedy the anomalies revealed, preferably by changing their diets._________________I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker

Ok, read that. It's interesting that Mr Taubes doesn't talk about the large body of evidence for the benefits of a plant-based, whole-grain diet; but I guess that would undermine some of what he proposes...

I also read Carbophobia, which the author has kindly put on-line for free ( http://www.atkinsfacts.org/index.html ), and which is worth a read if you buy into the 'low-carb diet' idea (especially if you think Atkins was on to something).

But I've cut down on the refined carbs (especially sugar), partly as a consequence of your reading suggestion, so thanks for that.

However I stand by what I've said; "if people are eating a lot of highly processed foods, which are often low in nutritional content while high in carbohydrates or sugars (and therefore energy), blood glucose will rise and fat storage will increase; but they won't be nutritionally satisfied. And so they'll eat more." Whether you look at that as a choice, or a body-driven inevitability, is maybe more a discussion about free-will than anything else!

Since this thread is about health in a post-peak world, I would suggest that since there is evidence a plant-based whole-grain diet can actually reverse many health problems as well as prevent them, then following such a diet may be a way to optimise health now, in preparation for whatever we have to do in that world when it comes. Here's a good guide (with an unfortunately terrible title) : 'How Not to Die', by Michael Greger ( http://nutritionfacts.org/book/ )._________________Humans are a natural disaster, tidying the world to destruction and death.