OK, it's obvious that these characters differ dxramatically from the ones we knew. I suspect, in fact, that the Batman who was Helena's father is not Bruce Wayne, but perhaps a descendant of Wayne's. I'm really not sure how I feel about all of this, but it isn't 'our' Earth Two, I know that...

randy77tx wrote:I always thought it was the other way around: heroes preserved life.

That is now, AFAICT, looked on as something "forced" by the CCA in the Silver Age. A relic of when they were for children. Call me crazy, but not only do I think that's more ethical (especially since they're vigilantes) but I don't know a whole lot of people who kill IRL. How hard would it be to NOT kill?

And, as you know, I've boycotted the DC boards because of lack of action against a certain poster (and his multiple ID's), but I still read the comments. Now, even that is painful. Do people just don't understand, or do they act the way they do because they know it inflames some long-time readers? If readers are loving the new DCU, all I can say is enjoy it while you can because if there is one area that is consistent with DC sicne 1985, it's change.

And, as you know, I've boycotted the DC boards because of lack of action against a certain poster (and his multiple ID's), but I still read the comments. Now, even that is painful. Do people just don't understand, or do they act the way they do because they know it inflames some long-time readers? If readers are loving the new DCU, all I can say is enjoy it while you can because if there is one area that is consistent with DC sicne 1985, it's change.

i think some people liking trolling and annoying others. that said, i'm one that enjoys some of the new dc books. however, i've not been a big fan of what i've seen for the upcoming earth 2 book. i'm going to give it a chance, but i'm going with the idea that everything i know about the real / original / however one wants to designate it earth 2 is pretty much out the window as far as this goes. it's just about as far from that as the earth one book(s) are from the original earth one.

in fact, i'd probably just have preferred that they make this new earth two set in grant morrison's earth 2 if they were basically ignoring what made the original special.

I'd just rather they'd called it somethin g other than 'Earth 2' and hadn't raised old Earth Two fans' hopes unecessarily. I don't understand why they seem to have deliberately misrepresented the project as a JSA series and told JSA fans they'd be pleased with it, only to then make it plain that it isn't set in the original continuity at all. That seems like deliberate malice.

tony ingram wrote:I'd just rather they'd called it somethin g other than 'Earth 2' and hadn't raised old Earth Two fans' hopes unecessarily. I don't understand why they seem to have deliberately misrepresented the project as a JSA series and told JSA fans they'd be pleased with it, only to then make it plain that it isn't set in the original continuity at all. That seems like deliberate malice.

It's just the next in DC's recent and baffling string of insults against the people who've been keeping them in business. There were many before the New 52, of course, but I count at least 3 since, including this one (the first was when Lois and Generic Guy went off to sleep with each other in Superman's new #1, a salt-in-the-wound move if ever I saw one, and the second was when Booster Gold actually berated us semi-indirectly in JLI for not liking changes). It's as if they're actively pushing as away. No, not even "as if", that is what they're actually doing. It's madness.

Yes, they are. I don't know why they are doing that, but they are. I think someone at DC has decided that actually acknowledging the company's history and the histories of the characters will put off potential new readers, and that the presence of the longtime fan community draws unwelcome attention to it. I think they have decided that we are disposable, an acceptable loss if they recapture the juvenile market. But I don't think there's really a juvenile market to recapture anymore, not on the scale that they need. It's all very short sighted and smacks of desperation to me.

tony ingram wrote:I'd just rather they'd called it somethin g other than 'Earth 2' and hadn't raised old Earth Two fans' hopes unecessarily.

DC has been doing this for a long time. Since Zero Hour, I think. They say something they know will get the attention of older fans, and then deliver something else entirely.

I think this is yet another one. They just restarted their universe, what is the point of taking focus off that main universe? And in doing so, they've used names and ideas they know older fans know and want, just to give people something else entirely. I don't get it.

Don't much care. I've given up on buying DC, for reasons I've mentioned, and I am finding myself more and more glad. The "home" DC used to be isn't there any more.

Sam_Vimes wrote:and the second was when Booster Gold actually berated us semi-indirectly in JLI for not liking changes

Wasn't that Superboy Prime's role? I really wish I'd kept that thread on the DC boards where someone showed that his dialogue had been taken from fan postings complaining about DC. As well as Kal-L's dialogue.

It has been obvious for years that most kids don't read comics, and most of the relatively few new readers actualy come to comics later these days. To me, it makes more sense to prioritize keeping and expanding your share of the existing audience, but then I guess I'm not an executive for a reason...

I really don't understand DC. Why turn your back completely on your heritage? Why didn't they just start a new "ultimate" line? Why piss off your fanbase? Okay, yes, this is drawing in new fans but it's also alienating older ones who have supported the company longer than newbies. DC ALWAYS goes back on its word. And I'm tired of my heroes becoming darker. If you want Lobo and Wolverine, that's fine, but Superman isn't a dark character. And DC is always saying how dark their comics have become but they're going to fix that and before you know it the sex and the violence is ramped up. I'm not being childlike or naive -- hey, give me a good zombie flick! -- but one of the things that were special about superheroes were the fact that they have these exaggerated powers but they conquered evil without stooping to their level. I don't know, maybe I am being immature. But the entire feel of comics is like jr. high students have taken over. There's just no rhyme or reason to things.

I feel DC purposefully used its older fans with Earth-2 and Worlds' Finest. Look at the titles! Designed to invoke memories with older readers who want Earth-2 back. We were misled. And here it is and it's DCnU-2.

I hate the response at the DC boards by the newbies and a few idiots who turn out to be the same troll that if you want the original Earth-2, then read your old comics. Well, I'm a big believer in karma, and as I have said, enjoy it while you can because DC will change things before you know it.

randy77tx wrote:enjoy it while you can because DC will change things before you know it.

Exactly. All those who went on and on after Crisis about how older fans were never going to get the multiverse back are the same who complained after Infinite Crisis that DC was changing their universe.

There's dark and then there's mature. I have no problem with stories that are more mature, but when established characters -- no, icons -- suddenly have total disregard for life, it changes things. Batman got darker over the last couple decades, but if he suddenly decides to go killing criminals, he's become no better they are. It's no longer about justice. And the end result becomes empty.

Well, the first images of the new "Jay Garrick" are now out there, and James Robinson has revealed more about Earth 2. Aaand...

It's not Earth Two. These are all new characters, young characters, and they've only been around five years, the same as those on the main Earth. The JSA are gone. The Golden Age and everything connected to it is gone. And, as far as DC is concerned, I am gone. Tomorrow, I'll be calling my local comic shop to drop The Shade, the last non Vertigo title I was buying, from my pull list. I feel totally let down by Robinson (a writer I really believed cared about those characters) and I'm now boycotting his work.

I'm actually glad I have a huge project at work this week so I can't really dwell upon it. I can say, though, I'm really disappointed. This is so depressing. I can't decide if I want to check out the first issue or not. I'm curious, but I'm also not wanting to give DC another cent. I know how that sounds, but I'm just disgusted.

I'm not totally blaming Robinson. And this sounds like an interesting Elseworlds title, because that's what it is. But all connections to DC's (and Fawcett's and Quality's) glorious golden age history are now forever lost.

If it was another writer, one who had no history with the Golden Age characters, I might not have had the same reaction, but I really thought he was on the same wavelength as the JSA's fans. Whatever happened to artistic integrity?

randy77tx wrote:but I'm also not wanting to give DC another cent. I know how that sounds, but I'm just disgusted

DC hasn't gotten a cent from me since they confirmed Before Watchmen, and they won't again. I am just a bit tired of spending my money with companies who don't share my ethics. There are plenty which do.

The whole Watchmen situation is disgusting, but at least Paul Levitz blocked the prequels idea when he was in charge. I doubt if any of the current mob could spell ethics, let alone have any idea of what the word means.

tony ingram wrote:Well, the first images of the new "Jay Garrick" are now out there. . .

I Googled the image right away because I hadn't seen it. Hideous design. Just awful. I could deal with it, though, if it were really Jay Garrick. But it's not. They've pretty much killed him off, and I feel gutted as a result. This is the first time this New 52 business really, REALLY bothered me. I guess I didn't know how much I cared about ol' Jay until he was gone.

I know. jay was my favourite DC character, had been sin ce I first encountered him in the 70's. I don 't understand why they didn't just create a brand new character with a new name if they didn't want to use the 'real' Jay, it isn't as though the new readers they're so desperate to attract will ever have heard of him, and most longtime JSA fans won't accept the new versions, I suspect.

Just dug this out: one of my favourite covers featuring Jay Garrick, and also one of the stories that made me really love the character when I was first getting to know him and his cohorts on Earth Two...(Don't worry; Lady Liberty hadn't really turned evil, it was that duplicitous Duke of Deception casting illusions to drive Diana mad!)

Sam_Vimes wrote:I Googled the image right away because I hadn't seen it. Hideous design.

Yeah, that's just butt-ugly, isn't it? What is the point of all this? I mean, seriously. They have to know that it's going to annoy long time readers, and I can't see taking the focus off the newly created universe to look at other earths this soon being a good idea. This whole thing just seems very poorly thought through.

tony ingram wrote:I doubt if any of the current mob could spell ethics, let alone have any idea of what the word means.

What disturbs me more than that are their supporters who think it's entirely "ethical" to focus only on making money. They attack you for having concerns other than profits.

I don't understand such absolute loyalty to a company. To characters or favourite writers, yes, but do they honestly think that DC Comics cares at all about them or their brand loyalty? What is there worth celebrating in the fact that a company you don't work for and have no financial investment in has grabbed a larger market share than another this month, if they've done so at the expense of a sizeable chunk of their fan base? In fact, why is it worth celebrating at all? It's completely irrelevant to them, personally! Isn't it?

This probably makes no sense to anyione reading it who isn't aware of the other forum in question, but well done. It's a shame people like that have to spoil things for those who just want a place to air legitimate views.

tony ingram wrote:It's a shame people like that have to spoil things for those who just want a place to air legitimate views.

absolutely agreed. i'm all for discussion and engaging those with differing points of view, but i can't stand the asinine behavior of a number of internet tough guys. some days it simply makes me not want to bother with signing on. (well, here there's no such problem, and i don't think there's been too much of an issue on the cloned dc board. at least that i've noticed.)