Sleep training support and advice 8.5 week old

I have attached his sleep for the last week or so kept on the Huckleberry app.

From what I've gleaned from just watching his natural patterns, here is what I've gathered:

WU happens around 615 for him. I generally leave him until 645, feed him, and he'll go down for a nap pretty easily between 7 and 730.

BT: His best bedtime seems to be around 830. I can shoot for 8, but he wakes up a lot during the night, where as at 830 I notice he will more often than not give me a 5/6 he stretch, followed by another long stretch. But, he does wake up at 4hrs, then every 1.5-2 after most often. He nurses back to sleep, and usually when I put him down he'll get jostled awake, then settle and go back to sleep.

His naps are alright... This morning I put him down in his bed drowsy for number one, and he did great... except he wakes every 45mins ALWAYS when I put him in his bed for naps and he won't settle after his cycle ends and he wakes up. It'll generally take another 45mins to an hour to resettle him and get him to sleep again, generally on me and nursing.

Last nap is always worn in the sling for our evening walk. Starts around 530/6, lasts 45mins to an hour, then we jump into BT routine with bath, massage, nurse, song and rock.

He has been happier and not crying as much, so he's just toeing the line of OT. Fussy, yes, but not inconsolable crying. Any crying he does give me, it's generally quickly fixed with a few bounces and talking.

Temperament: he is super alert. Given the chance, he would rather talk to me. Also, I call it pretend crying, where he isn't getting what he wants, but if I talk to him he'll smile and stop fussing. He does this same frustrated fussing when I leave him for a while to resettle... never to go back to sleep. When I lean over his PnP and he sees me, he will intensify his fussing, sometimes cry, just to be sure I know he's unhappy. He loves the boob, won't suck on anything else, though he has been working on finding his hand, so I've started one hand out for naps, and at night never reswaddle, so he gradually gets more movement as the night goes on. I use the SwaddleMe swaddlers. His major soothing mechanism outside of that is crying, but generally only when severe OT (off topic) takes in. He can cry for quite a while and not sooth though.

My schedule: varies, sadly. Most days I will be dropping him off around 9am in order to "go to work", and most days I'll be able to retrieve him around 11. IF I get a job, I will wake him up around 615 to feed, get dressed, etc, to be dropped off around 7, to be picked up around 530, though some days maybe later.

I am starting work tomorrow. I financially cannot wait any longer. After his 2month checkup on the 13th, and then our week of travel, I am ready to start training. PU/PD is my preferred method, I don't want too much crying because I'm in an apartment. I'll also have a better idea of his eating needs, so I'll feel better cutting his lazy feeds. Plus, I feel like a little extra time for gentler conditioning will do him good to get him to figure out self soothing.

That, and it'll also give me time to REALLY formulate a plan. Especially considering I am going to have to convince grandma to follow it...

Advice:

Schedule. I am thinking keeping his WU around 615 is best. He seems to be handling an hour WT, the only time he's hard to get down is between sleep cycles. How can we work on that to keep our naps good?

BT is much easier lately. I put down drowsy/very drowsy and jostle awake and majority of the time he does great and goes down on his own, though swaddled. Sometimes I'll pick him up if isn't settling and nurse to drowsy again.

I want to cut the comfort nursing... help? I have been nursing, but I'll pull him off, he will wake up, and then bounce to drowsy again. Today I had to do that twice to get him back down in his bed during naptime. Attempted to jostle first time, no dice, put down asleep for second half. Is this ok?

If I sometimes do a morning nap being worn for a walk, but always our last nap on a walk is that going to forever throw us off...? I love our walks, and my routine usually involves a walk/exercise before dinner, so that's going to be something we always do. In my mind, that's when BT routine starts.

As for naps at grandma's.. she loves the swing. I do not. If she does the swing there, will that effect me here at home? He has very few sleep associations at her place, so if she jumps on the sleep training train, will it be easier for her? She doesn't tolerate crying either, and is quick to offer a paci or sooth, where as i want him to figure that out on his own.

TIA. I know still a lot of words, but hopefully easy enough to follow.

1250-3 napped again through our WIC appt. Admittedly, until he was in his carseat he was OT (off topic) and fighting nap.

345-555 napped. Carseat through grocery shopping

635-720 walk nap

We did feed, bath, massage, cluster feeds, song, and he went down drowsy at 830 like a dream, no real fighting or crying. A bit more breast soothing than I'd like, but it worked, and he got a song just before going down versus me. Humming my sunshine really gets him drowsy, for both naps and bed, so huzzah conditioning, hehe.

WT: 1.25/2.25/45/45/45/1.1

Today felt good! Some fighting, but overall very little crying. More happy alert, or zoning.

We will see how he does tonight. TIA (thanks in advance)

Edit:

Last night he woke up at 100, and again at 330.

The 100 one seems to be habit, he wasn't really hungry but did eat. At 330 though he was actually hungry, and I know he can go from around 830pm-300 as his long stretch.

The kicker... he slept till 730 haha. He was probably up sooner, but didn't wake me up.

Only difference was I didn't open the blinds back up from yesterday, so maybe he's like mama and wakes up to the sun.

It's about 830 now, no nap in sight and we're about to leave for grandma's, so who knows how naps are going to go today.

He wasn't terribly fussy today, just alert, and would start to cry a little until we were moving in the car. He seems to be eating a lot, and I wonder about my supply, so I'll update what the lactation consultants say.

Some fussing tonight when I put him down around 835 awake (I got tired)... but, he ended up eating again and got another letdown, then was jostled and drowsy being put down.

He wasn't taking the bottle today... Monday is going to be really hard for him, because I'll be gone all day. He's used to me getting back around 1130 when I drop him off. Being a single mom with very limited help means some major Christening by fire for him, poor guy.

Still hoping for some advice and guidance. Have the last two days been ok..? I know a lot longer WT than it should be for his age, but he is super nosy and will not settle, but also hasn't cried too much. It seems like he will fuss only if I try to hide his vision or gets tired of seeing the same thing. Anyone with advice on the alert babies, hook a sister up. This kid was happily staring at me the first hour of his life... if only I knew, I would have conditioned him from day 1.

He wasn't terribly fussy today, just alert, and would start to cry a little until we were moving in the car. He seems to be eating a lot, and I wonder about my supply, so I'll update what the lactation consultants say.

Some fussing tonight when I put him down around 835 awake (I got tired)... but, he ended up eating again and got another letdown, then was jostled and drowsy being put down.

He wasn't taking the bottle today... Monday is going to be really hard for him, because I'll be gone all day. He's used to me getting back around 1130 when I drop him off. Being a single mom with very limited help means some major Christening by fire for him, poor guy.

Still hoping for some advice and guidance. Have the last two days been ok..? I know a lot longer WT than it should be for his age, but he is super nosy and will not settle, but also hasn't cried too much. It seems like he will fuss only if I try to hide his vision or gets tired of seeing the same thing. Anyone with advice on the alert babies, hook a sister up. This kid was happily staring at me the first hour of his life... if only I knew, I would have conditioned him from day 1.

I don’t have much advice but my 8 week old also seems to be able to handle much longer WTs than is recommended at this age. He usually doesn’t show any signs of being tired until 1.5 hrs and, even then, he just gets a bit cranky — no eye rubbing or yawning or anything like that. He is super hard to get down for naps and bedtime though, so maybe that’s how the longer WTs are messing us up. He gives us a great long stretch at night though (usually 8 to 4) so I’m VERY hesitant to change anything.

I’m torn between thinking LO (little one) just needs to blow off steam before sleeping (last night I rocked him while he screamed on and off for 15 minutes, at which point he finally accepted the pacifier and fell asleep) or it’s time to sleep train. It takes way too long to get him to sleep, which makes our WTs even longer during the day. We also have huge problems with 45 minute naps and nap extensions don’t seem to be helping him lengthen.

I’m trying to wait until 12 weeks to officially sleep train, but only because nights are good and I’m not working now. My plan is to start with PU/PD and then move straight to CIO (cry it out) if I need to.

In your situation, I'd wake when you need him up for the day. Then, follow WTs for naps. I'd go ahead an train for nights now with pu/pd. He's young enough that drowsy is ok FOR NOW. Let the goal be putting down less and less drowsy over the next 4-8 weeks such that he's wide awake by 4 months. This should be an easier thing to accomplish than retraining when he's old OR training from wide awake now. If he doesn't settle with a pu or check, move to more CIO. I'd consider dropping the swaddle or doing both arms out when you start.

Once nights are sorted (you can pd easily within a typical/minimal amount of crying, nights are consistent in the # of wakings, etc), you can work on naps. If his caregiver does something different, that's fine. Most kids are flexible enough to realize the different expectations between caregivers.

So sorry I did not get back on to answer you yesterday.
In your situation, ...

Posted
09/08/2018

So sorry I did not get back on to answer you yesterday.

In your situation, I'd wake when you need him up for the day. Then, follow WTs for naps. I'd go ahead an train for nights now with pu/pd. He's young enough that drowsy is ok FOR NOW. Let the goal be putting down less and less drowsy over the next 4-8 weeks such that he's wide awake by 4 months. This should be an easier thing to accomplish than retraining when he's old OR training from wide awake now. If he doesn't settle with a pu or check, move to more CIO. I'd consider dropping the swaddle or doing both arms out when you start.

Once nights are sorted (you can pd easily within a typical/minimal amount of crying, nights are consistent in the # of wakings, etc), you can work on naps. If his caregiver does something different, that's fine. Most kids are flexible enough to realize the different expectations between caregivers.

Today I found out my supply is dipping, so he has indeed been clustered feeding/snacking.. so it's good I've actually started feeding before our baths, too. After next week if things have improved and he's taking fuller feeds during the day I'll definitely start aiming for more awake at night. I'm not quite comfortable cutting night feeds so I'll suffer those, though they seem consistent at 2.

If I start our PD for bed with training, it wouldn't be too hard to then start trying to wean the wakes at night with the same method, correct? I'm hoping with less snacking during the day he'll drop those on his own, though good to know how that works for regressions.

Also, thank goodness. Grandma can deal with her own monster if she doesn't take my advice, haha.

No worries! I appreciate it.
Today I found out my supply is dipping, so he ha...

Posted
09/08/2018

No worries! I appreciate it.

Today I found out my supply is dipping, so he has indeed been clustered feeding/snacking.. so it's good I've actually started feeding before our baths, too. After next week if things have improved and he's taking fuller feeds during the day I'll definitely start aiming for more awake at night. I'm not quite comfortable cutting night feeds so I'll suffer those, though they seem consistent at 2.

If I start our PD for bed with training, it wouldn't be too hard to then start trying to wean the wakes at night with the same method, correct? I'm hoping with less snacking during the day he'll drop those on his own, though good to know how that works for regressions.

Also, thank goodness. Grandma can deal with her own monster if she doesn't take my advice, haha.

PU/PD tends to be too stimulating MOTN. I'd wait 5-10 minutes to give him a chance to settle back down on his own. If he doesn't, you can do 1-2 checks. Maybe pick up for the first, and check but keep in crib for the second? Past that, CIO (cry it out) will get him back to sleep faster MOTN. Honestly though, waiting the 10 minutes with both of my boys allowed almost all NFs to drop on their own.

I think it's so ingrained in everyone that the only possibly reason a baby could wake overnight is because of hunger and that is simply not the case. Adults wake many times per night to shift position, change the covers, etc. Babies do the same. When they rely on someone else to get them to sleep, they don't know how to get back to sleep without that, even if they wake because they want to move their leg into a different position. Teaching them how to fall asleep at bedtime and then giving them the chance to settle back on their own when they wake MOTN should help with that.

PU/PD tends to be too stimulating MOTN. I'd wait 5-10 minutes to give him a chance to settle back down on his own. If he doesn't, you can do 1-2 checks. Maybe pick up for the first, and check but keep in crib for the second? Past that, CIO will get him back to sleep faster MOTN. Honestly though, waiting the 10 minutes with both of my boys allowed almost all NFs to drop on their own.

I think it's so ingrained in everyone that the only possibly reason a baby could wake overnight is because of hunger and that is simply not the case. Adults wake many times per night to shift position, change the covers, etc. Babies do the same. When they rely on someone else to get them to sleep, they don't know how to get back to sleep without that, even if they wake because they want to move their leg into a different position. Teaching them how to fall asleep at bedtime and then giving them the chance to settle back on their own when they wake MOTN should help with that.

Sounds great, and totally noted. Thank you so much!

I think part of my supply issue is he feeds at night, but only on one side, then snacks all day after. I'll feel better after our 2 month checkup and then lactation follow up.

A few questions.

I got him down at 8 last night. He woke up at 1130, 130, 330, 530, and he's going to be up at 630... which is funny, because no, he's not going to go back to sleep.

WHY!? He will only wake up twice if he is down around 830, but anything earlier means this nonsense of wake up all night. Thank God I napped with him yesterday, because I'm back to work today.

Another odd thing.. if I'm aiming for an earlier bedtime, like last night, he will cry through most of the routine, versus enjoying it well enough. When I turn the lamp off, he loses it, versus if we are a little later he's fine. Why? He was down at 8, but he cried the whole time.

Another question... He doesn't actually cry at night... he will lay there and squirm around for a while, and kinda cry out... he won't settle, he'll just happily lay there. I've wondered if he does it for an hour, or if he eventually goes back to sleep, I have no idea if I end up going back to sleep. If I go to check, then he'll start fussing. Do I leave him? I'm tempted to snag some ear plugs from work today and sleep with them. I'll hear real crying, but not his MOTN lay around in bed happily sessions. We share a room and have no other options. He also wiggles around so much, he ends up worked up against the side of his PnP.

Honestly, he may go to sleep on his own, he just did next to me in my bed... maybe part of it is he's not swaddled as tightly by the MOTN so may wakes himself up.

If I go to comfort, though, he is going to want to nurse, and that needs to stop. He nurses at every wake up, and sometimes twice during the day. I am not a human pacifier, and cannot have him snacking and taking half feeds. If he has gained weight alright in the last week, he is getting cut off. Part of the plan was to feed him what I pump after feeding, but he has stopped taking bottles and isn't hungry enough to cup feed, soo... I'm just waiting for the medical blessing.

I'm worried if we need to add formula how we will if he won't take a bottle. He's going to have a hall of a time at grandma's today.. I was hoping he would let me get good sleep last night, but oh well.

Their natural BT and WU tends to align with their circadian rhythm once it develops. It's driven by melatonin, sleep cues (sunset, dimmer lights), etc. It also tends to shift earlier as they get older and they produce their own melatonin.

Leave him if he's quiet. If he needs help or is hungry, he'll let you know.

Can you send someone else in for comfort when it's not feeding time? That is really the best way to approach it. It's tough when you are nursing and they can smell your milk. Otherwise, be firm with a check for comfort but do not offer to nurse/comfort nurse. Comfort nursing made me so crazy - I couldn't stand it! It was one of those things I just couldn't wrap my head around or allow with my boys.

Don't worry about solving problems you don't have yet. If he won't take a bottle later, jump that bridge then. You've got enough going on now.

Also, you may want to adjust he routine. Try something like feed, bath, diaper, massage, feed, THEN do pjs, book, etc. You want something more stimulating so that he's not falling asleep on all the soothing and is more apt to go back to sleep on his own if/when he wakes MOTN.

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