Leafs fan coming in peace, firstly congrats on your amazing start! Hope both our teams make the playoffs. Now on to the issue at hand, I don't see why you guys would be against an enforcer? Prust is a stand up guy and a monster, but hes undersized and in the NE division none of the big boys are afraid of him. He can not do all the fighting by himself. White is a gamer, but doesn't he make to many bone headed plays? No one would really be afraid to answer him anyway. Moen really doesnt fight anymore because of concussion issues anyway right?

I can't see how having a guy like Kassian would hurt the team over an Armstrong. Who was useless in Toronto and from now understanding is useless in MTl to. The factor that Kassian could bring would be a lot more valuable then what Armstrong offers. To those saying dressing a enforcer makes no difference, I can tell you first hand it does. Last year the leafs were the softest team in the NHL under Wilson. We started the year hot but when things got physical as the year went on, we got embarrassed. Teams figured out if you go after Kessel or Dion then they get shaken up and were basically out of the game mentally. We even had scrums last year were our own players would ignore the scrum and go to the bench. This year with Orr, Brown, Fraser, Mclaren all in the game, Kessel is getting into scrums chirping and holding people. The moral of the team is different and everyone is playing a few inches taller. After the Boston incidents from the past few years, and the Toronto ones and so on I don't see why you guys wouldn't.

Also I don't think its fair to call Orr, Mclaren and so on goons. Orr is on the third line now and is playing decently. He has a goal and an assist, isn't a defensive liability, if you watched the games you would realize that and he can even keep up with the nhl speed. It's not like he holds the team back with his play, he busted his ass of in the offseason to improve his game. Fraser is a machine back there and can play at the NHL level and Mclaren is playing solid for a forth liner. I would argue that we have no goons on our team. Goon meaning they can't skate properly and fight and can't even hit cause they are to slow. We have role players that when things get out of hand can goon it up.

In conclusion, Montreal should get an "enforcer" but be smart about it. Get someone like a Kassian and a trio of White, Prust and Kassian will be decent.

Same Leafs that were initially worse with Carlyle than they were with Wilson last season?

Same Leafs who in 2011-2012 finished on top of the Eastern Conference in October winning seven of 10?

Same Leafs that can never play a full season since the lockout?

The difference in Toronto is their leading goal scorer and their leading point producer: Kadri and Van Riemsdyk. Frattin is also doing a good job making up for the injury to Lupul.

Kadri has mentioned that having a guy like Orr has made all their job easier and that they have all more courage to do all out. Wilson just plain didn't want to use Orr. He didn't want to play THAT kind of hockey. Just look at Phaneuf, he just seems all around more relaxed.

It still takes talent to win games. It still takes great coaching to win games.

Having Orr on the Habs would not have turned Gomez into a scoring machine. Nor would it have made Gill skate faster.

You miss the point so aggressively when you're waiting to launch into your regurgitated pro-enforcer spiels that I'm convinced you do it on purpose. Re-read the conversation but this time, put an ounce of thought into it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimota

Kadri has mentioned that having a guy like Orr has made all their job easier and that they have all more courage to do all out. Wilson just plain didn't want to use Orr. He didn't want to play THAT kind of hockey. Just look at Phaneuf, he just seems all around more relaxed.

What else is he going to say? "Yeah he's a pretty bad hockey player, I wish we had some skill in the line-up instead"?

Wilson just plain didn't want to use Orr? Must be why Orr played 133 games under Wilson.

Kadri has mentioned that having a guy like Orr has made all their job easier and that they have all more courage to do all out. Wilson just plain didn't want to use Orr. He didn't want to play THAT kind of hockey. Just look at Phaneuf, he just seems all around more relaxed.

You miss the point so aggressively when you're waiting to launch into your regurgitated pro-enforcer spiels that I'm convinced you do it on purpose. Re-read the conversation but this time, put an ounce of thought into it.

What else is he going to say? "Yeah he's a pretty bad hockey player, I wish we had some skill in the line-up instead"?

Wilson just plain didn't want to use Orr? Must be why Orr played 133 games under Wilson.

That's a pretty sad post if you want my opinion. You're trying to diminish a hockey player's point of view to convince yourself that you're right.

As for Orr, Kimota is right. Burke signed Orr to a 4 year contract but Wilson didn't like having a heavyweight in the line-up. There's a reason why he was in the AHL his 2nd year of the contract season.

That's a pretty sad post if you want my opinion. You're trying to diminish a hockey player's point of view to convince yourself that you're right.

I take hockey players' opinions on their teammates with a grain of salt like anyone with half a brain would. Attempting to use Kadri's comments as some kind of critical analysis into the importance of an enforcer to the lineup is just laughable.

Quote:

As for Orr, Kimota is right. Burke signed Orr to a 4 year contract but Wilson didn't like having a heavyweight in the line-up. There's a reason why he was in the AHL his 2nd year of the contract season.

Is it not possible that maybe he didn't like Colton Orr's play that year? Because the history seems to show that Wilson had no problem dressing tough guys or heavyweights at any point in his head coaching career.

But no, of course not. It's because the Leafs finally got a coach who understands the importance of an enforcer and that's why they're winning. Despite all historical evidence and logic to the contrary.

That's a pretty sad post if you want my opinion. You're trying to diminish a hockey player's point of view to convince yourself that you're right.

As for Orr, Kimota is right. Burke signed Orr to a 4 year contract but Wilson didn't like having a heavyweight in the line-up. There's a reason why he was in the AHL his 2nd year of the contract season.

Hoto is right. How many habs backed up Gomez and kept claiming that he was a standup guy and great hockey player to the bitter end?

That's a pretty sad post if you want my opinion. You're trying to diminish a hockey player's point of view to convince yourself that you're right.

If Kadri was playing scared before Orr was on his line it says more about him then the value of an enforcer. Arguably the biggest/baddest guy around is Chara but that doesn't stop one of the smallest guys Gionta from playing him as hard as anyone else. Hell I even remember Kostitsyn hitting Chara from behind not that long ago, he wouldn't of done that if he was afraid now would he?

McCormick is actually the one who looked bad against Bourque? Yeah...great enforcer.

Yes, we do need an enforcer. But at the right price. No need to overpay. And the day we'll really believe in it, we'll start drafting them. We don't have a whole lot of histories with drafting/trading for goons. Look at the Timmins drafting since 2003. Only look at the forwards or D's that were indeed pure goons...or grit guys with "some" punching qualities....It starts with Jimmy Bonneau....then Greg Stewart, Andrew Conboy and Ryan White. Add the Ian Schultz acquisition. Clearly, we're "babies" in that departement....I guess we can only improve. But it does seem pretty far in Timmins and Co "qualities" in a draft.

McCormick is actually the one who looked bad against Bourque? Yeah...great enforcer.

Yes, we do need an enforcer. But at the right price. No need to overpay. And the day we'll really believe in it, we'll start drafting them. We don't have a whole lot of histories with drafting/trading for goons. Look at the Timmins drafting since 2003. Only look at the forwards or D's that were indeed pure goons...or grit guys with "some" punching qualities....It starts with Jimmy Bonneau....then Greg Stewart, Andrew Conboy and Ryan White. Add the Ian Schultz acquisition. Clearly, we're "babies" in that departement....I guess we can only improve. But it does seem pretty far in Timmins and Co "qualities" in a draft.

I'd rather Timmins take a chance on guys with talent in the later rounds. He's gotten more than his fair share of late round gems. You don't need to draft an enforcer to get one. Just go back through this thread and see how many are put on waivers every year.

McCormick is actually the one who looked bad against Bourque? Yeah...great enforcer.

Yes, we do need an enforcer. But at the right price. No need to overpay. And the day we'll really believe in it, we'll start drafting them. We don't have a whole lot of histories with drafting/trading for goons. Look at the Timmins drafting since 2003. Only look at the forwards or D's that were indeed pure goons...or grit guys with "some" punching qualities....It starts with Jimmy Bonneau....then Greg Stewart, Andrew Conboy and Ryan White. Add the Ian Schultz acquisition. Clearly, we're "babies" in that departement....I guess we can only improve. But it does seem pretty far in Timmins and Co "qualities" in a draft.

You miss the point so aggressively when you're waiting to launch into your regurgitated pro-enforcer spiels that I'm convinced you do it on purpose. Re-read the conversation but this time, put an ounce of thought into it.

So lets look at the conversation.

Kimota says that Orr gives the Leafs players more courage. You respond with this.........

Quote:

Originally Posted by hototogisu

You realize, of course, that Orr also played 82 games and racked up 240 PIMs for them the year they finished second-to-last in the league...right?

And I respond that it takes talent to be a winning hockey team.

So to respond to your "aggressive" post to me, I will simply ask you this.

What are you really trying to say? Can you be more clear instead of posting some sarcastic reply to Kimota?

That should not require more than an ounce of thought from you either.

I wish he was still with the Habs! That fight happened right in front of me , I can hear myself whistling during the fight . Lost that game , but it was my first in 20 years . Man why didn't they keep staubs , he was great for our team .

Kimota says that Orr gives the Leafs players more courage. You respond with this.........

He's right. It gives courage. Never would Kadri have dropped the gloves without Orr, McLaren and a bunch of other players ready to back him up.

But we need to ask ourselves what kind of courage this is. The same kind of courage that Marchand has in Boston. The courage to disturb, the courage to give that extra hit or punch, the courage to intimidate the one's smaller than you (not talking about Kadri), knowing that someone will back you up if a bigger guy goes after you.

It doesn't gives you the courage to play harder, finish your check, play the body, clear the net, skate hard, drive the net, etc. That has nothing to do with an enforcer. It's the difference between toughness and grit. Plekanec is not tough, but he's gritty and he doesn't need an enforcer for it.

That being said, I love the way Toronto plays. The reason for their success is not that they have an enforcer, it's that their whole identity is based on toughness (even Kadri bought into it). Just like the Bruins and the Ducks when they won the cup.

What makes you win game is a strong identity. But it doesn't have to be about toughness. Detroit and Pittsburgh won the cup with talent and hard work. Montreal had success with a team identity based on the PP for years.

It doesn't matter what is your identity, but you gotta find one to be effective. At the moment, Habs identity cannot be about toughness. They would have to trade away half the team. Adding an enforcer wouldn't be significant. They have to look in another direction.

That being said, I'm not against adding an enforcer as a 13th forward. I just don't think it's needed right now, nor that it would have the positive effect some think it would have.