On yet another note, can I point out that the Steelers "restructured" three players this week in the 'kicking the can down the road' sense of the word (converting base salary to bonuses to lessen the cap hit). Aren't they supposed to be the model of how a football team is run? Or is it only a diabolical conspiracy when Mayhew does it?

_________________"Good teams don't worry about a whole lot of stuff. They travel, they play, they win. And it doesn't matter where they go, what the time block is, all those kinds of things. They never seem to bother teams that play well, and we want to be one of those teams." -Jim Caldwell

February 27th, 2013, 4:14 pm

wjb21ndtown

Re: Off-Season Moves

thelomasbrowns wrote:

On yet another note, can I point out that the Steelers "restructured" three players this week in the 'kicking the can down the road' sense of the word (converting base salary to bonuses to lessen the cap hit). Aren't they supposed to be the model of how a football team is run? Or is it only a diabolical conspiracy when Mayhew does it?

You can restructure players in a positive, helpful way. We "restructure" scrubs like Nate B who should have been off the team two years ago. THAT'S the problem.

Teams often restructure guys at the end of season too, to take advantage of unused capspace. That's something that we don't seem to take full advantage of. I believe we had about a million or a little more in unused cap space last year. Sure would be nice to add that to the pile.

February 27th, 2013, 4:25 pm

thelomasbrowns

Player of the Year - Defense

Joined: August 24th, 2010, 9:54 pmPosts: 2823

Re: Off-Season Moves

wjb21ndtown wrote:

thelomasbrowns wrote:

On yet another note, can I point out that the Steelers "restructured" three players this week in the 'kicking the can down the road' sense of the word (converting base salary to bonuses to lessen the cap hit). Aren't they supposed to be the model of how a football team is run? Or is it only a diabolical conspiracy when Mayhew does it?

You can restructure players in a positive, helpful way. We "restructure" scrubs like Nate B who should have been off the team two years ago. THAT'S the problem.

Teams often restructure guys at the end of season too, to take advantage of unused capspace. That's something that we don't seem to take full advantage of. I believe we had about a million or a little more in unused cap space last year. Sure would be nice to add that to the pile.

With the new CBA, unused cap space gets carried over to the next year.

_________________"Good teams don't worry about a whole lot of stuff. They travel, they play, they win. And it doesn't matter where they go, what the time block is, all those kinds of things. They never seem to bother teams that play well, and we want to be one of those teams." -Jim Caldwell

I honestly don't see how anyone could feel they are doing a good job developing talent. I don't think there is a player other than SLH that even plays better than what was expected of them. I will say they have done an ok job getting their FAs and 1st rd guys to not play worse than before they picked them up.

Here's the way I look at it, I look at the team and see if there is any player on the roster that another team would trade a higher pick for the player than was used on him when he was drafted. When I do that I can't find one except perhaps Avril and I see him as the one guy that will go somewhere else and instantly drop in production.

Agree to disagree, I guess. The 49ers just got a 2nd for Alex Smith, whom they drafted 1st overall. Does that mean they didn't develop him? I don't know anybody who would agree with that. With the exception of a few hyped players ever year, draft picks are like new cars--they lose a part of their value as soon as you take them off the lot.

For one you can say the 49ers didn't develop Alex Smith, he was terrible for many years before Harbaugh got there. I give a lot of credit to Harbaugh for turning him into a value piece, Harbaugh turned Alex Smith from a guy everyone thought would get cut to a guy everyone couldn't believe was sitting on the bench.

Second, Like I said 1st rounders shouldn't be included because good 1st round picks shouldn't need much if any development, they really should just need the playing time to adjust to the speed of the game.

The only way to gauge a coaching staff's ability to develop talent is to see what they do with 2nd and 3rd day picks, especially the 3rd and 4th round guys. 3rd and 4th round is where many guys have the physical talent needed to start in the NFL, but need the right coaching to get there.

I do want to make the one point also that Mayhew's picks have been for guys that have many red flags and that may have stopped much of the chances they had to develop any talent, but it's been openly stated Schwartz is putting input in the choices so he can't be without fault on that either.

Your draft picks shouldn't be dropping their value that quickly unless your reaching for players. The first year or two a player will hold his value if he is still an unknown, once he hits that field though he needs to look like what people expected him to or his value will begin to drop. It's your coaching staff's job to insure these draft picks are playing to the level of the round they were picked and to get a few of them to play above that level as they gain experience. If your staff isn't doing that, they are not developing the players.

February 27th, 2013, 4:59 pm

regularjoe12

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 amPosts: 4180Location: Davison Mi

Re: Off-Season Moves

but by your way of looking at things Belichek must suck. Brady has not improved since his rookie year (ya know when he won his first ring). Matter of fact many would argue he isnt as good anymore...so does that mean that Belichek cant develop players? or perhaps there is more to the picture than you're letting yourself believe?

what it REALLY sounds like is, you have a problem with who we pick in the mid to late rounds. Mayhew has yet to find that diamond in the rough on day 2 and beyond. Now THAT would be hard to argue against.

_________________2013 Lionbacker Fantasy Football Champion

February 27th, 2013, 6:24 pm

kdsberman

League MVP

Joined: February 20th, 2007, 10:51 pmPosts: 3485Location: Saginaw, MI

Re: Off-Season Moves

Apparently just released DT Mike Patterson is visiting lions. It would be a nice addition but why in the heck would we need another DT? Unless they have plans for Corey Williams or don't plan on resigning SLH.

but by your way of looking at things Belichek must suck. Brady has not improved since his rookie year (ya know when he won his first ring). Matter of fact many would argue he isnt as good anymore...so does that mean that Belichek cant develop players? or perhaps there is more to the picture than you're letting yourself believe?

what it REALLY sounds like is, you have a problem with who we pick in the mid to late rounds. Mayhew has yet to find that diamond in the rough on day 2 and beyond. Now THAT would be hard to argue against.

Brady got better 3 straight seasons after his rookie year and had some of his best statistical years in the last couple years. If you want to say Belichek had nothing to do with it thats on you.

Of course people will say he's not as good anymore, he like everyone else gets older. That's not even a valid argument.

I do believe Mayhew has made bad picks in day 2 and later, I would go as far as to say most of the problem with development falls on his bad picks, but the guys that have been drafted are mostly non productive or not on the team any longer.

It's been 4 seasons now and the only notable players on the team are 1st round picks and they have 8 open spots on the defense without a single drafted player they can say will take over for the FA that could be leaving.

Apparently just released DT Mike Patterson is visiting lions. It would be a nice addition but why in the heck would we need another DT? Unless they have plans for Corey Williams or don't plan on resigning SLH.

It's probably got more to do with Washburn liking him from his time in Philly than anything else. Corey Williams could also be looking for more money than they want to spend to resign him.

February 27th, 2013, 6:50 pm

thelomasbrowns

Player of the Year - Defense

Joined: August 24th, 2010, 9:54 pmPosts: 2823

Re: Off-Season Moves

rao wrote:

regularjoe12 wrote:

but by your way of looking at things Belichek must suck. Brady has not improved since his rookie year (ya know when he won his first ring). Matter of fact many would argue he isnt as good anymore...so does that mean that Belichek cant develop players? or perhaps there is more to the picture than you're letting yourself believe?

what it REALLY sounds like is, you have a problem with who we pick in the mid to late rounds. Mayhew has yet to find that diamond in the rough on day 2 and beyond. Now THAT would be hard to argue against.

Brady got better 3 straight seasons after his rookie year and had some of his best statistical years in the last couple years. If you want to say Belichek had nothing to do with it thats on you.

Of course people will say he's not as good anymore, he like everyone else gets older. That's not even a valid argument.

I do believe Mayhew has made bad picks in day 2 and later, I would go as far as to say most of the problem with development falls on his bad picks, but the guys that have been drafted are mostly non productive or not on the team any longer.

It's been 4 seasons now and the only notable players on the team are 1st round picks and they have 8 open spots on the defense without a single drafted player they can say will take over for the FA that could be leaving.

Every single defensive player we took 2009-2011, with the exception of Hogue, has contributed in a significant way. The newer guys on the bench weren't playing and thus might not be ready to take over because those earlier draftees were starting or higher up in the rotation. We have no idea what is up with Whitehead, Ronell Lewis or Travis Lewis, for example, because they simply didn't play. Doesn't make them "bad picks."

Now let's look at the 2012 CBs. Bill Bentley was a week one starter, but got hurt unfortunately. Greenwood basically redshirted. Jonte Green is a good example though. Guy was atrocious for the first half of the season. By the end, he was playing decent ball. The coaches deserve some credit for that.

I think that's what happens with most teams' later round picks--they're thrown into action because of injuries and you see what they're all about. If they don't embarrass themselves, you've succeeded; you find a diamond in the rough, and you're a genius. I don't know many teams that would be confident replacing each former first rounder departing for free agency with a 5th-7th rounder. Very rare that that happens.

And on another note, it's a cop out to rule out the first round. Sure, first rounders should pan out, but as Lions fans we all know that doesn't always happen. The coaching staff deserves credit for getting our first rounders to perform at a high level. First rounders taken before they got here (CJ & Gos) have performed better as well. Not having any first round busts since Schwartz took over is an accomplishment, IMO. I don't think there's many teams that can say all of their first rounders in that time span have panned out to the extent ours have.

Now one addendum to my sticking up for the current regime: it's all about wins and losses. I'm willing to dismiss last year as a fluke because of the extreme bad luck we experienced. If they have another down season, then it's time to clean house.

_________________"Good teams don't worry about a whole lot of stuff. They travel, they play, they win. And it doesn't matter where they go, what the time block is, all those kinds of things. They never seem to bother teams that play well, and we want to be one of those teams." -Jim Caldwell

but by your way of looking at things Belichek must suck. Brady has not improved since his rookie year (ya know when he won his first ring). Matter of fact many would argue he isnt as good anymore...so does that mean that Belichek cant develop players? or perhaps there is more to the picture than you're letting yourself believe?

what it REALLY sounds like is, you have a problem with who we pick in the mid to late rounds. Mayhew has yet to find that diamond in the rough on day 2 and beyond. Now THAT would be hard to argue against.

Brady got better 3 straight seasons after his rookie year and had some of his best statistical years in the last couple years. If you want to say Belichek had nothing to do with it thats on you.

Of course people will say he's not as good anymore, he like everyone else gets older. That's not even a valid argument.

I do believe Mayhew has made bad picks in day 2 and later, I would go as far as to say most of the problem with development falls on his bad picks, but the guys that have been drafted are mostly non productive or not on the team any longer.

It's been 4 seasons now and the only notable players on the team are 1st round picks and they have 8 open spots on the defense without a single drafted player they can say will take over for the FA that could be leaving.

Every single defensive player we took 2009-2011, with the exception of Hogue, has contributed in a significant way. The newer guys on the bench weren't playing and thus might not be ready to take over because those earlier draftees were starting or higher up in the rotation. We have no idea what is up with Whitehead, Ronell Lewis or Travis Lewis, for example, because they simply didn't play. Doesn't make them "bad picks."

Now let's look at the 2012 CBs. Bill Bentley was a week one starter, but got hurt unfortunately. Greenwood basically redshirted. Jonte Green is a good example though. Guy was atrocious for the first half of the season. By the end, he was playing decent ball. The coaches deserve some credit for that.

I think that's what happens with most teams' later round picks--they're thrown into action because of injuries and you see what they're all about. If they don't embarrass themselves, you've succeeded; you find a diamond in the rough, and you're a genius. I don't know many teams that would be confident replacing each former first rounder departing for free agency with a 5th-7th rounder. Very rare that that happens.

And on another note, it's a cop out to rule out the first round. Sure, first rounders should pan out, but as Lions fans we all know that doesn't always happen. The coaching staff deserves credit for getting our first rounders to perform at a high level. First rounders taken before they got here (CJ & Gos) have performed better as well. Not having any first round busts since Schwartz took over is an accomplishment, IMO. I don't think there's many teams that can say all of their first rounders in that time span have panned out to the extent ours have.

Now one addendum to my sticking up for the current regime: it's all about wins and losses. I'm willing to dismiss last year as a fluke because of the extreme bad luck we experienced. If they have another down season, then it's time to clean house.

I'm not including 2012 guys because it wouldn't be fair since they should at least get a season to get into a few games before they are judged on their progress. When camps start though they better be able to hold their own against this years later round guys.

I would say no team would be confident replacing their guys like that, but that wasn't my point. My point is the Lions don't have even one guy they could pencil in as the new starter. Everyone of those spots will have to be addressed with something other than a guy currently on the roster.

If Bentley and Green show something this year I'll be more than happy to give Schwartz credit, but right now neither guy can be considered a win. I'd like to say Bentley being injured is a fluke, but when it happens to every player they draft you have to start saying its a pattern not just random. I want to see if Green plays well this year. He doesn't need to start or anything, but we gotta see that he hasn't regressed.

I have no problem giving them credit if the 2012 guys start to show progress, but they have got virtually nothing from the 3 drafts before that. I want them to show progress it means the coaching staff and front office are making adjustments from what wasn't working before, but I'm not giving them any credit for anything outside the 1st rd from 2009-2011 because they have nothing to show from those years.

On yet another note, can I point out that the Steelers "restructured" three players this week in the 'kicking the can down the road' sense of the word (converting base salary to bonuses to lessen the cap hit). Aren't they supposed to be the model of how a football team is run? Or is it only a diabolical conspiracy when Mayhew does it?

On yet another note, can I point out that the Steelers "restructured" three players this week in the 'kicking the can down the road' sense of the word (converting base salary to bonuses to lessen the cap hit). Aren't they supposed to be the model of how a football team is run? Or is it only a diabolical conspiracy when Mayhew does it?

You can restructure players in a positive, helpful way. We "restructure" scrubs like Nate B who should have been off the team two years ago. THAT'S the problem.

Teams often restructure guys at the end of season too, to take advantage of unused capspace. That's something that we don't seem to take full advantage of. I believe we had about a million or a little more in unused cap space last year. Sure would be nice to add that to the pile.

You are allowed to carry a certain portion of unused cap space from the previous season into the next league year. I have heard Pat Kirwan mention teams doing it a few times. I am sure there is guidelines for doing it somewhere.

On yet another note, can I point out that the Steelers "restructured" three players this week in the 'kicking the can down the road' sense of the word (converting base salary to bonuses to lessen the cap hit). Aren't they supposed to be the model of how a football team is run? Or is it only a diabolical conspiracy when Mayhew does it?

You can restructure players in a positive, helpful way. We "restructure" scrubs like Nate B who should have been off the team two years ago. THAT'S the problem.

Teams often restructure guys at the end of season too, to take advantage of unused capspace. That's something that we don't seem to take full advantage of. I believe we had about a million or a little more in unused cap space last year. Sure would be nice to add that to the pile.

With the new CBA, unused cap space gets carried over to the next year.

Thank you. I guess I should have continued reading before I replied to the previous post.

I'm not including 2012 guys because it wouldn't be fair since they should at least get a season to get into a few games before they are judged on their progress. When camps start though they better be able to hold their own against this years later round guys.

I would say no team would be confident replacing their guys like that, but that wasn't my point. My point is the Lions don't have even one guy they could pencil in as the new starter. Everyone of those spots will have to be addressed with something other than a guy currently on the roster.

If Bentley and Green show something this year I'll be more than happy to give Schwartz credit, but right now neither guy can be considered a win. I'd like to say Bentley being injured is a fluke, but when it happens to every player they draft you have to start saying its a pattern not just random. I want to see if Green plays well this year. He doesn't need to start or anything, but we gotta see that he hasn't regressed.

I have no problem giving them credit if the 2012 guys start to show progress, but they have got virtually nothing from the 3 drafts before that. I want them to show progress it means the coaching staff and front office are making adjustments from what wasn't working before, but I'm not giving them any credit for anything outside the 1st rd from 2009-2011 because they have nothing to show from those years.

I personally think you are going to be surprised this year. Ronnell Lewis was drafted to be a DE. We did not need him last season. So, he got a season to develop. You have no idea how his development went. Non of us do.

Pretty much the same story with Travis Lewis and Tahir Whitehead. ( except they were drafted as LBers).

I was really down on Bentley when we drafted him. I wanted a CB much earlier in the draft. And he out performed my expectations for him. He may be the diamond in the rough you are looking for. That said, I believe we still need another CB. I want a LT in the 1st. But, if they are gone, I would be thrilled with Milliner.

I'm not including 2012 guys because it wouldn't be fair since they should at least get a season to get into a few games before they are judged on their progress. When camps start though they better be able to hold their own against this years later round guys.

I would say no team would be confident replacing their guys like that, but that wasn't my point. My point is the Lions don't have even one guy they could pencil in as the new starter. Everyone of those spots will have to be addressed with something other than a guy currently on the roster.

If Bentley and Green show something this year I'll be more than happy to give Schwartz credit, but right now neither guy can be considered a win. I'd like to say Bentley being injured is a fluke, but when it happens to every player they draft you have to start saying its a pattern not just random. I want to see if Green plays well this year. He doesn't need to start or anything, but we gotta see that he hasn't regressed.

I have no problem giving them credit if the 2012 guys start to show progress, but they have got virtually nothing from the 3 drafts before that. I want them to show progress it means the coaching staff and front office are making adjustments from what wasn't working before, but I'm not giving them any credit for anything outside the 1st rd from 2009-2011 because they have nothing to show from those years.

I personally think you are going to be surprised this year. Ronnell Lewis was drafted to be a DE. We did not need him last season. So, he got a season to develop. You have no idea how his development went. Non of us do.

Pretty much the same story with Travis Lewis and Tahir Whitehead. ( except they were drafted as LBers).

I was really down on Bentley when we drafted him. I wanted a CB much earlier in the draft. And he out performed my expectations for him. He may be the diamond in the rough you are looking for. That said, I believe we still need another CB. I want a LT in the 1st. But, if they are gone, I would be thrilled with Milliner.

I think what happened last year was Mayhew drafted guys to build into starters at the teams most needed positions. He knew he wasn't going to makes changes in FA so he grabbed CBs, LBs, and a DE. I like that he seemed to be looking at the future and how many guys were going to be leaving this year.

I also liked how Bentley played, my concern is if he's like Stafford or is he like Fox. He was having stability issues in his shoulder with it constantly dislocating and after having surgery it has been said that he may have had to go back in January or early February to have another surgery. He also had a concussion last year, but these days players get diagnosed with concussions very easily. I hope he rebounds because he looks to be a willing tackler and good corner.

I liked both Ronnell Lewis and Travis Lewis picks. I think they were good college players and Travis Lewis seemed like great value in the 7th rd. I have a lot of hope for the last draft class.

Don't think just because I think the team has done bad the previous years I've already thrown these guys out. I'm still a positive fan because I feel like any smart person should be able to see what hasn't worked so far on the team and be able to make corrections. Mayhew has shown that he can see it's not working by bringing in Xanders and admitting he screwed up last year in free agency. I'm still concerned with the coaches, but they are here and I am hoping that they can make more out of the better/less injured/less crazy players Mayhew should be bringing them now.