re: Hostess and Union to Arbitration

re: Hostess and Union to Arbitration(Posted by PRK on 11/19/12 at 8:45 pm to Lsut81)

The Hostess CEO received a 300% raise, while 9 Hostess executives received 60% to 100% raises -- all the while Hostess was entering its second bankruptcy and the company stopped paying into employee pensions AND asked workers to take a ~10% pay cut. They make less than $20 an hour already.

re: Hostess and Union to Arbitration(Posted by BFIV on 11/19/12 at 9:08 pm to 50Mullets)

quote:No, it prevents merit based promotions. It encourages promotions based on either "I like you." or "I don't like you." except that it is the union leaders of the local chapter that get to make the decision, not the business owner. All it accomplishes is replacing competition with cronyism.

That's an interesting argument and it is one which I have heard before. When an employee bids on and accepts an opening in a skilled category, that employee must complete an apprenticeship to "top out" in pay for that particular job skill. He has promoted himself by mastering the skills required for that job. There are no union leaders of the local chapter that get to make that decision. Within a union shop, promotions and job advances are made within the confines of seniority and qualifications and most all contracts that I have seen also contain the stipulation that the employee must be able to learn that particular job and do it correctly, thus becoming "qualified". If not, they are demoted to their previous job and must wait on another higher rated job opening for which they can submit their bid according to their seniority and again, become "qualified". If the employee has the ability to learn that new job, then he has earned his "merit promotion". If it isn't handled by the specifications of the contract, then the employee has a grievance which will ultimately be settled by the arbitration process. Although they have the right to do so in many instances, a business owner in a non-union shop would be quite foolish to promote or demote based on "I like you" or "I don't like you". And successful business owners know that.

re: Hostess and Union to Arbitration(Posted by VOR on 11/19/12 at 9:34 pm to Lsut81)

quote:Hostess and Union to Arbitration This is fricking ridiculous... The bankruptcy judge orders something and the Union won't agree, so Hostess moves to shut down, and now the Judge is pushing them towards arbitration...

You started off on the wrong foot. There's a difference between mediation and arbitration. A significant one.

Plus, Hostess voluntarily chose bankruptcy. The judge has the power to enforce contracts, including those that call for mediation.

(Vor beat me to it) Need link. Pretty sure that the mediation process proposed here is completely voluntary and you aren't bound to shite due to those discussions, versus an arbitration where someone puts a number on the case.

No doubt they were horribly managed as well. This is a combination of a lot, but if you have a heavy union presence it certainly isn't going to make restructuring outside of the Bankruptcy context a viable endeavor.

I have no idea why Hostess would want to deal with a bakers union for it's employees. I can see the benefit of unions for things like construction trades, etc....but no reason to overpay unskilled labor. You can't compete with overseas production.

quote:I have no idea why Hostess would want to deal with a bakers union for it's employees. I can see the benefit of unions for things like construction trades, etc....but no reason to overpay unskilled labor. You can't compete with overseas production.

I heard something insane about how the unions had contracted such that, in some instances, the twinkies couldn't be transported in the same truck as other types of snacks. I mean, wtf. Terrible management, terrible unions, bankrupt. Color me not surprised.

quote:. Although they have the right to do so in many instances, a business owner in a non-union shop would be quite foolish to promote or demote based on "I like you" or "I don't like you". And successful business owners know that.

Friend of mine who runs a hotel is frustrated because he can't pay his best employee more based on union rules. The union that represents the workers actually voted against a pay raise this year and he knows he can't keep this employee without paying more.

Merit based on productivity is a very good reason to give raises and promotions.

re: Hostess and Union to Arbitration(Posted by BFIV on 11/19/12 at 10:05 pm to 50Mullets)

quote: quote: a business owner in a non-union shop would be quite foolish to promote or demote based on "I like you" or "I don't like you". And successful business owners know that.

So if you already say this isn't a problem, what purpose does the union serve?

The particular successful business owner has learned or knows that by treating his employees fairly, with integrity and respect he will, in all probability, never have "union" problems. Unfortunately, there are still business owners who have yet to learn this lesson. Hence, there are still unions. And the term "successful business owner" means more than simply being profitable. There are degrees of "success" and different connotations. As an example, I would point to the current "problems" that Wal-Mart is addressing with its Black Friday employee protests. Not for one second would I imply that Wal-Mart is not a successful business, but some of their employees certainly believe that Wal-Mart is not treating them fairly, with integrity and respect. In the example you quoted, I was referring more to the small business owners instead of the corporations and large blue collar factories. I should have made that point more clearly. I apologize for not doing that.

re: Hostess and Union to Arbitration(Posted by BFIV on 11/19/12 at 10:10 pm to VOR)

quote: quote: And the judge has the authority to dissolve all the contracts, too.

That's a bit of an overstatement.

You are quite right, VOR. I should have said that the bankruptcy judge has the authority to dissolve all the labor contracts. At least that is my understanding of current law. If that is not correct, then I ask that someone who knows for sure to educate me on this aspect of bankruptcy proceedings.

re: Hostess and Union to Arbitration(Posted by BFIV on 11/19/12 at 10:14 pm to Tiger Authority)

quote:I heard something insane about how the unions had contracted such that, in some instances, the twinkies couldn't be transported in the same truck as other types of snacks. I mean, wtf. Terrible management, terrible unions, bankrupt. Color me not surprised.

I wish I had a copy of that contract. I bet it would make for some interesting reading.