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I think his point was that Cinccino is a lot easier to use because it requires no setup and is faster. Normal/Grass/Rock is resisted by only Magnimite, Klang, Bronzor, Pawniard, and Mawile; not bad for 3 125 base power attacks. Zangoose needs to get his orb to activate and pulling off a Swords Dance helps it.

Originally Posted by 5221A

Last gen i used a ninjask baton set but i see potencial in this:
Ninjask @ leftovers
-batton pass
-Substite
-toxic
-protect
Nature: jolly
Evs: 248 HP/ 252 Spd /8 SpDef
I alsmost always got in a few swords dance and i stalled for like 20 turns with a set like this, so why not.
Note: Dustprance is one of the best NU pokes (my fave and awsome paraflinch/fuse)

I think his point was that Cinccino is a lot easier to use because it requires no setup and is faster. Normal/Grass/Rock is resisted by only Magnimite, Klang, Bronzor, Pawniard, and Mawile; not bad for 3 125 base power attacks. Zangoose needs to get his orb to activate and pulling off a Swords Dance helps it.

that doesn't really mean that it overshadows zangoose.
it doesn't really have any problems getting toxic orb to activate. it can easily pick off weakened things with quick attack and moves coming off a 115 base attack. there's also common volt switch users being probopass and eelektross (both of which are good) in order to bring it in safely.
theoretically, zangoose can beat pretty much any pokémon 1v1 aside from musharna and alomomola (though they lose to swords dance and are shaky with hazards up). it has the necessities to do what's needed, and with proper prediction, that's where it tears through teams. on the other hand, cinccino is stopped by things like probopass, bastiodon, tangela, misdreavus, and a few others.
i think the difference that comes is that cinccino can work late-game once its counters and checks with priority are cleared out. zangoose is able to break most walls mid-game with the help of hazards and can also effectively pick off things late-game with priority. i just find that zangoose has more utilization because even though cinccino has scouting capabilities, it hates hazards just as much as zangoose which makes it harder to use.

I think his point was that Cinccino is a lot easier to use because it requires no setup and is faster. Normal/Grass/Rock is resisted by only Magnimite, Klang, Bronzor, Pawniard, and Mawile; not bad for 3 125 base power attacks. Zangoose needs to get his orb to activate and pulling off a Swords Dance helps it.

I should mention that your set is easy Taunt bait...

Eh, i made it in like 5 secs. SO im not suprised it is not perfect Also Taut is not used a lot in NU....

Eh, i made it in like 5 secs. SO im not suprised it is not perfect Also Taut is not used a lot in NU....

I wouldn't say that for the sole reason that spinning is near impossible in NU. The amount of good spin-blockers trumps the amount of good spinners (which is fairly small *cough*Armaldo, Wartortle*cough*), so the only way to stop hazards is to stop it in the beginning, which mostly means utilizing Taunt and stuff, which means Taunt, on the contrary, is going to increase.

Shadow Tag Goth is pretty underused and cool in this NU metagame. It functions like Shadow Tag Chandelure in DW, only it sucks harder, so it's relegated to really low tier, but its potential is still great regardless. While Chandy ran effective scarf and CM sets, Goth has enough bulk to run a Sub-CM set, coming in on walls, trapping them, and use them for free boosts. In NU, in order for Goth to CM without suffering status and wierd shizz like that, Sub is necessary, not to also mention it makes it getting to +6 ridiculously easy. It can easily set up on NU's biggest defensive things, such as Amoonguss, Alomomola, 0 Spe Garbodor, Probo, etc. She can easily take that time and boost all the way to +6 behind a sub and hurt stuff with it. It works decently in NU, but the metagame is too BO oriented for it to work well. Where it actually shines is in RU, where the whole metagame circles around semi-stall, but it's definitely worth a consideration in NU, especially with the rise of Amoonguss and Alomomola.

Also, not even two weeks into the stats, and Zangoose, Cincinno, and Amoonguss are all suspects now. Have fun discussing, NU bros.

Yeah, Taunt may or may not increse, but right now few peopel run Taunt in NU.

Also Beedrill is quite usefull, seting up toxic spikes. Then after he takes a hit use endevor and then piking of the poke who killedmhim with prio. He also has a quite strong bug STAB, one of the best in NU. Poison also gains a large amount of neutral covrage. His 80 base Atk and base 75 Spd are not that bad.

The realm where for casual players find some cool pokemon (aesthetically) competitively weakened I'm looking at you fans of Charizard, but I agree he should be fire dragon). But I may like this tier too. Tried some on Pokemon online before I deleted the install.

Simipour is Decent with torrent or not with Nasty plot and the scald beam combo. Though guts Pokemo like Gurdurr can take the scalding burn and become more deadly.

Cinccino is indeed my favorite in NU not just aesthetically but also Competitively. Her Technician may be the booster of weak attacks (but scizor is the tech master of OU with Ambipom as its rival on UU) but skill link gives it scary power now. Choice items (I HATE THEM! I SHOULD FIELD MY PERSONAL MATCHES WITHOUT THESE THINGS!) are now her deadly toys. Wanna play her like 'Toon Link' with either more power, Choice band is your ticket. Wanna Rival Weavile, choice scarf will be your bet (I guess she learns quick attack while its still Minccino.). Her pre evo makes herself more of a U-turn user still with only tail slap as her skill link multi hit attack (I tried breeding 2 Cinccino with the multi hitting moves. It did not happen to me. Only tail slap's viable. Sad). Trust me. Fight the non scarfed legendary creator trio of hoenn (Especially rayquaza, a childhood nightmare of mine) and they can get seriously weakened or KO'd Since one of those 5 hits with Life orb have a nice chance of one of the five hits becoming a critical blow. To blunt it out on my personal terms, she's like the Normal type version of offensive Mew minus the number of learnable moves and bulk.

Butterfree (most fave bug type, with heracross kinda climbing up now in 5th gen) with the new tinted lens and quiver gave it its own Niche in the higher tiers too. At least it can now do multiple settings. Like that Sleep powder Compoundeyes with quiver dance. Something I loved when 5th gen came out.

Same with Masquerain like butterfree but more potent on some way being able to learn water moves while it's still a little surskit.

OHKOs 20 of the top 25 NU Pokemon with Psychic alone, and OHKOs all of them with proper prediction. It has plenty of chances to switch in on weak bulky NU attackers like Torkoal, Amoonguss and Alolamoloa (however its spelled lol). Analytic activates if Beheeyem attacks second, or if the opponent switches meaning it will get a boost against everything in NU besides Shuckle and Torkoal. Analytic gives Beheeyem about 500 Special Attack before the Choice Specs boost. Psychic does so much damage that even Regice can be 2HKOed.

While its not insanely bulky 75/75/95 with 252 HP is decent, enough to switch in on most walls / tanks and survive a Golem Sucker Punch or most things Garbodor runs if needed.

signal beam and hidden power ground is better in this metagame. i think it just misses out on 25 bp against ghost types--most of which aren't good on the special side or on taking hits in general--and in turn, beheeyem can hit skuntank which is much more valuable.

like you said, analytic works on switches too, so something's really going to die if it switches in on the wrong move. only things heavily invested in special defense can take a hit relatively well. beheeyem is definitely a choice over musharna if raw power is desired over bulk. i don't like running minimum speed ivs on beheeyem because i want it to outspeed amoonguss (even ones that speed creep), so simply a quiet nature does enough for me.

beheeyem is really threatening and worth using just to punch some holes in the opponent's team.

But is Thunderbolt good for hitting anything? Psychic OHKOs Alolamola (spelling...) so maybe Trick or something.

yeah, trick is definitely a decent option in its place.
thunderbolt was mostly a filler (really niche) coverage move; i can only see it hitting things like articuno, natu, and swoobat harder, but that's not significant.
but in retrospect, i've only found myself using signal beam/hidden power until all the dark types are gone before spamming psychic. i wouldn't find a situation where beheeyem would want to use trick, because i just want it to smash things. .-.
hell, when i used choice specs musharna, i ran the same set except with sleep talk in the fourth slot for stray spores/sleep powders which catches the opponent off guard when he/she leaves amoonguss, exeggutor, or tangela in only to get smacked.

also, regarding shadow tag gothitelle, i haven't really put much thought into it. it's definitely a threat, but with how offensive the metagame is right now, it looks manageable. now the issue is when it gets in on something that doesn't threaten it or is choice-locked into the wrong move. that will 'cause a usage drop in defensive 'mons and the metagame will become increasingly offensive (more than it is now). just like zangoose, it restricts diverse playstyles, so i don't see gothitelle staying in the tier. stall and balanced teams will definitely continue to struggle in this metagame because gothitelle will easily set up several calm minds.

i'm not willing to put too much thought into speculation so i'll just see how people use it and how the metagame tries to adapt. as for me, first thing i'll do is run one fast haze user until i see other said adaptations. skuntank seems like a good candidate, and i think its usage will shoot back up in general too.

Last gen i used a ninjask baton set but i see potencial in this:
Ninjask @ leftovers
-batton pass
-Substite
-toxic
-protect
Nature: jolly
Evs: 248 HP/ 252 Spd /8 SpDef
I alsmost always got in a few swords dance and i stalled for like 20 turns with a set like this, so why not.
Note: Dustprance is one of the best NU pokes (my fave and awsome paraflinch/fuse)

I'm sorry if this comes out rude, but this set is terrible. While baton-passing ninjask is okay, it's become much worse after SD and speed boost together was banned, which was quite some time ago. All you are passing in this set is speed boosts, and with ninjask's fragility, even when using protect, you'll get very few boosts as almost everything OHKOs ninjask. (Which makes your EVs absolutely asinine, but I won't get into that.)

To make matters worse, substitute drains a quarter of your maximum HP, and you'll need 4 leftovers boosts to get the HP back. How is ninjask going to survive 4 turns without taking a single ounce of damage? Yeah, you'll get 2 protects, but even the most simple minded individual will be able to predict the protect pattern.

This is all not even considering that if you're hit with taunt you can't do anything at all. I don't know what you're talking about in your other post, taunt is very common.

I have claimed Alduin, the mighty dragon! He shall one day return to bring forth the end of time, and fulfill the prophecy of the world eater.

I'm sorry if this comes out rude, but this set is terrible. While baton-passing ninjask is okay, it's become much worse after SD and speed boost together was banned, which was quite some time ago. All you are passing in this set is speed boosts, and with ninjask's fragility, even when using protect, you'll get very few boosts as almost everything OHKOs ninjask. (Which makes your EVs absolutely asinine, but I won't get into that.)

lol that set is fine. Its the standard Baton Pass set without Swords Dance. Not everything needs a Swords Dance, somethings can sweep with just speed. Defensive Ninjask set is probably the best.

some things, if given even a +1 boost are pretty terrifying. even in the nu tier. imagine switching in on an eq, gaining a boost, protecting, subbing, and protecting, and subbing on a switch to ko it. then switching to gothitelle. thats +5 and a sub. scary. gothitelle has decent defenses, but just lacks speed.

I'm sorry if this comes out rude, but this set is terrible. While baton-passing ninjask is okay, it's become much worse after SD and speed boost together was banned, which was quite some time ago. All you are passing in this set is speed boosts, and with ninjask's fragility, even when using protect, you'll get very few boosts as almost everything OHKOs ninjask. (Which makes your EVs absolutely asinine, but I won't get into that.)

To make matters worse, substitute drains a quarter of your maximum HP, and you'll need 4 leftovers boosts to get the HP back. How is ninjask going to survive 4 turns without taking a single ounce of damage? Yeah, you'll get 2 protects, but even the most simple minded individual will be able to predict the protect pattern.

This is all not even considering that if you're hit with taunt you can't do anything at all. I don't know what you're talking about in your other post, taunt is very common.

The only move to ever be banned alongside Baton Pass is Shell Smash. SDPassing was never banned. Besides, the set posted is pretty much the standard set, just with some EV changes and Toxic > X-Scissor. The goal is just to spam Sub and Protect to accumulate enough speed to pass to an offensive receiver, not to stall. Ninjask doesn't need to worry about running out of HP with Sub, since it can stall for 13 turns (maybe 15 with proper HP investment, I can't remember) to get more than enough speed just by hitting Protect -> Sub -> Protect -> Sub over and over. Being Taunt bait kinda sucks, but it's not that bad considering Toxic is probably going to do a lot more damage in the log run than X-Scissor. Taunt is even less of a problem when you realize that Ninjask is so ridiculously fast, it can just BP away before the Taunt even hits.

EDIT: Wow, ninja'd twice. Why did those posts not show up when I previewed this post? 0.o

Oh yeah, and let me just say that this core is pretty incredible in NU. Kind of an offensive core with a little defensive backbone.

Musharna naturally lures in Dark and Bug type attacks, especially Pursuit trappers like Absol and Skuntank. Once it has a CM or two set up, it can BP the boosts to Combusken, who eats Bug attacks and (most) Dark attacks for breakfast. Even without a boost, Combusken naturally 2HKOs most of the tier with either Fire Blast or Focus Blast, so it has the potential to do even more damage when you give it a boost or two. Most of the Pokemon in NU that Combusken really has trouble with are bulky Psychic types like opposing Musharna, which Skuntank takes care of. Kind of a twist on the classic Psychic/Fighting/Dark cores.

I actually find Swoobat to be a underrated major threat. With Simple, Calm Mind, and Stored Power, it can put major dents in the opponent with just 1 turn of set-up, plus it can set up on special attackers reasonably well with +4 Amnesia, and that boost only further empowers Stored Power. Combine that with a nice base 114 speed that can outspeed a lot of Taunt users and you have a major threat when played right. Just watch out for priority. I've swept many a team with it.

I actually find Swoobat to be a underrated major threat. With Simple, Calm Mind, and Stored Power, it can put major dents in the opponent with just 1 turn of set-up, plus it can set up on special attackers reasonably well with +4 Amnesia, and that boost only further empowers Stored Power. Combine that with a nice base 114 speed that can outspeed a lot of Taunt users and you have a major threat when played right. Just watch out for priority. I've swept many a team with it.

Dont forget magic coat (since taunt users and rapid spinners are limited). You are right it is a treat, but not underrated i see a lot of them

On topic of Ninjask on the previous page, I haven't been able to play it right with Regigigas. Any tips?

Yeah, don't use Regigigas.

If you're Baton Passing from Ninjask, the best receivers are those that have a lot of power but are held back by their lack of speed. I've found Marowak to be a great BP receiver since it hits like a nuke, it's pretty slow, and it switches into any random Electric and Rock type attacks aimed at Ninjask with ease. If you can get in a SD along the way, Marowak gets even more power.

If all you're doing is passing speed boosts, Octillery is another neat receiver to try. It has good SpA and a pretty wide movepool, but it also has the bonus of Suction Cups to keep from being phazed out. Even if you want to run a physical set on it to abuse SD boosts, it's not all that bad. You have a good STAB in Waterfall, and Bullet Seed and Rock Blast are always good moves to have for utility and coverage. The last move could be Fire Blast to get past Tangela or something.

If you're Baton Passing from Ninjask, the best receivers are those that have a lot of power but are held back by their lack of speed. I've found Marowak to be a great BP receiver since it hits like a nuke, it's pretty slow, and it switches into any random Electric and Rock type attacks aimed at Ninjask with ease. If you can get in a SD along the way, Marowak gets even more power.

If all you're doing is passing speed boosts, Octillery is another neat receiver to try. It has good SpA and a pretty wide movepool, but it also has the bonus of Suction Cups to keep from being phazed out. Even if you want to run a physical set on it to abuse SD boosts, it's not all that bad. You have a good STAB in Waterfall, and Bullet Seed and Rock Blast are always good moves to have for utility and coverage. The last move could be Fire Blast to get past Tangela or something.

That's the thing, 'Gigas is basically Uber without those stat drops and when those boosts kick in...I still has trouble...maybe it's my moveset. As for your mentions, they're typical and expected. As for me, I like being different by doing stuff like I mentioned.

That's the thing, 'Gigas is basically Uber without those stat drops and when those boosts kick in...I still has trouble...maybe it's my moveset. As for your mentions, they're typical and expected. As for me, I like being different by doing stuff like I mentioned.

Seems to be a lack of reliable spinners in NU. Torkoal is currently the one I use, (max HP + Def, Bold nature) and is also my hazard setter. Tentacool is also a good one, with eviolite and toxic spikes.

Oh yeah, and let me just say that this core is pretty incredible in NU. Kind of an offensive core with a little defensive backbone.

snip

Musharna naturally lures in Dark and Bug type attacks, especially Pursuit trappers like Absol and Skuntank. Once it has a CM or two set up, it can BP the boosts to Combusken, who eats Bug attacks and (most) Dark attacks for breakfast. Even without a boost, Combusken naturally 2HKOs most of the tier with either Fire Blast or Focus Blast, so it has the potential to do even more damage when you give it a boost or two. Most of the Pokemon in NU that Combusken really has trouble with are bulky Psychic types like opposing Musharna, which Skuntank takes care of. Kind of a twist on the classic Psychic/Fighting/Dark cores.

that's a really neat core! :)
i used the exact same musharna set except with 252 hp / 232 def / 24 spe to out-speedcreep amoonguss and like you said, it's a really great dark-type lure but also one of the best fighting-type counter/checks out there. i paired this with gurdurr as an effective way to clean out absol and skuntank without fearing their attacks.

i also used musharna with an offensive core of rain dance mantine and special samurott with aqua jet. although none of the three really help each other with their weaknesses (although musharna can pick off a weakened amoonguss), a passed calm mind boost is sometimes great i suppose.

however, my main point here is that a double special-attacking water core is amazing. ludicolo/mantine plus samurott is great.
ludicolo with hydro pump / giga drain / ice beam / rain dance (or mantine with hydro pump / air slash / ice beam / rain dance) plus samurott with hydro pump / ice beam / grass knot / aqua jet or megahorn is what i've been messing around with. it probably seems redundant, but water/ice/grass is perfect coverage and breaks down defensive cores (alomomola, amoonguss) with the help of hazards in some cases. i just don't like how all three of these have to run a +spe nature (they really could've used the extra power) but base 70 is actually a complicated speed tier where they need to be outspeeding each other and other things that share similar speed. what one of them may not be able to handle with breaking down a core, the other can finish off. from there, having a physical attacker such as zangoose can pretty much finish off the rest of the opponent's team since it appreciates having those defensive cores weakened.

Originally Posted by 5221A

Dont forget magic coat (since taunt users and rapid spinners are limited). You are right it is a treat, but not underrated i see a lot of them

skuntank is a perfectly capable taunt user, and it's popular anyway since it handles psychic/ghost types.
nobody should even be running magic coat on swoobat since it gets ohko'd by most (or all) of the common stealth rock users. i'd rather use some other stealth rock lead that can also check flying and normal types since those are really threatening in the tier.
also, swoobat kind of suffers from four moveslots. calm mind with substitute is kind of the main draw to swoobat and it really needs that last slot for a coverage move. otherwise, you shouldn't be using swoobat at all.