I've just started calling L1335 the new and seventh member of DF13's Big Seven subclades. The addition of a Wales II variety guy to L1335 sealed it for me. I've been questioned about L1335 about why I thought it was old as the Scots Modal isn't necessarily that old.

This is a simplistic view of the Big Seven, but one way to look for diversity (age) is the greatest GD to the modal, not greatest GD of any two in the group but to the modal. That gives us a decent chance to understand relative aging.

The GD at 67 from the L1335 modal to its most distant member, f19706 Price 1335-W2, is 22.

For Z253, the max GD is 26.

For DF21, the max is 24.

For DF41, the max is 22.

For L513, the max is 24.

For Z255, the max is 22.

For DF49, the max is 30.

We are still very early in testing, but L1335 has already tied DF41 and Z255.

Look at DF49! I still think DF49 is vastly under tested among DF13+ people. DF13's max to its modal is only 27, which is the same as L21's.

We should bear in mind the caveat that DF49's modal is swayed by the distinctive M222 signature.

Last edited by Mikewww on Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Mikewww wrote:This is a simplistic view of the Big Seven, but one way to look for diversity (age) is the greatest GD to the modal, not greatest GD of any two in the group but to the modal. That gives us a decent chance to understand relative aging.

The GD at 67 from the L1335 modal to its most distant member, f19706 Price 1335-W2, is 22.

For Z253, the max GD is 26.

For DF21, the max is 24.

For DF41, the max is 22.

For L513, the max is 24.

For Z255, the max is 22.

For DF49, the max is 30.

I thought I'd look at this technique of GD to the modal for some of the Z253 subclades.

The maximum GD to the modal is as follows:

L1066 max GD is 17 (n=32).

Z2185 max GD is 21 (n=36, including L1066+).

Z2185xL1066 max GD is 19 (n=4).

So Z2185 is looking nearly as old as some of the sons of DF13.

The L1066 result is not biased by Irish Type IV, as only six of them have tested for L1066.

Now look at Z2534, which is upstream of Z2185 but downstream of Z253. Z2534 includes Irish Type III (L226+) as well as Irish Type IV, and there are 134 entries in Mike's spreadsheet which are L226+. Including these and all others who are confirmed positive for Z2534 or one of its downstream SNPs, we have a maximum GD of 24 (n=175).

So the maximum GD to the modal is 26 for Z253, 24 for Z2534, 21 for Z2185 and 17 for L1066. It all fits together quite neatly.

Mikewww wrote:With the advent of L1335 and CTS4466, it looks like DF13* is shrinking in size. Those two SNPs probably take Wales II, Scots Modal and Irish II/South people out of the R1b-L21>DF13* designation.

I'm starting to use this for the single asterisk so this is effectively the Big Eight.L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41- L1335- CTS4466-...Note: Double asterisk still will require checking the others like L555, L371 and L96, etc.

DF13* is expected to continue shrinking now that Z251 is available for Advanced Orders ala carte. Here is the updated descendancy tree for L21.

I continue to maintain that subclades like DF13, L2 (in U152), Z381 (in U106) and Z196 (in DF27) are only not more famous because of accident of discovery sequence. They are big and they are old and not too distant relatives from the patriarch of European L11.