Is a Decree widening the possibility of celebrating the Latin Mass according to the rite from before Vatican II (the so-called Mass of Saint Pius V) still expected?

[Secretary of State] Cardinal Bertone: The merit of the conciliar liturgical reform is intact. But both [for reasons of] not losing the great liturgical heritage left by Saint Pius V and for granting the wish of those faithful who desire to attend Masses according to this rite, within the framework of the Missal published in 1962 by Pope John XXIII, with its own calendar, there is no valid reason not to grant to priests in the entire world the right to celebrate according to this form. The authorization of the Supreme Pontiff would evidently preserve the validity of the rite of Paul VI. The publication of the motu proprio which specifies this authorisation will take place, but it will be the pope himself who will explain his motivations and the framework of his decision. The Sovereign Pontiff will personally explain his vision for the use of the ancient Missal to the Christian people, and particularly to the Bishops.

No, "left" is the proper verb in reference to a "heritage" or an inheritance. One "leaves" an inheritance. One does not "codify" an inheritance, unless the last will and testament was written with the help of the SooperSekrit Spy Encoder Ring found in the breakfast cereal. :-)

Anyway, I think it's safe to say that it won't be long now before the Motu Proprio is released. Perhaps it will be during Holy Week, although I would think it's more likely to be released not too long after Easter.

Jordan Potter: My point is that Saint Pius V didn't invent the mass. His work tidied up the missal, but the liturgical heritage descends from many other hands in combination, and from the beginning of the church. I know you know that, I'm just saying. To those who don't a remark like that makes it sound like the traditional mass goes back that far, and no farther. The post-Trental mass is not that different from the pre-Trental form. etc. etc. etc.

I was just noting what is rather quickly becomming a vestigial remnant of concilliar political mitigation and spin of the argument.

I'm also surprised that the Philadelphian hasn't yet posted on the USCCB article, not to mention this one. It looks like his sources has left him out of this one. Either that or he's out of his depth and doesn't know what to say about it or doesn't want to, because it's a whole lot louder than a Whisper now!)

This discussion is sterile: Cardinal Bertone's words emphasize the enormous wealth of the Missal of Saint Pius V, and he certainy did not intend to offer a detailed liturgical history of the Traditional Roman Missal, of which he is aware.

Originally, I thought that we we just going to get a simple "Motu Proprio", which allowed for the Tridentine Latin Mass, but not much more.This quotation from Cardinal Bertone "that the Supreme Pontiff Himself will explain His framework and reasoning" seems to indicate that Benedict XVI is planning something much much bigger than a simple "Motu Proprio", and that He will address it publically....perhaps in writing, or perhaps even in a Vatican ceremony.Whatever it is, I am now convinced that the day is very close for the publication of the "Motu Proprio", which will stun the Catholic world because it will be so much more than that which we had hoped for.I think Benedict XVI is leaving no stone unturned...and using all Papal power (including polite threats...perhaps even to Bishops or Bishops Conferences!) that there is no opposition to the universal return of a Mass and tradition which nourished the Church for centuries, and will once more.I would not be surprised if it all happens next week....or within days of the Easter celebration.

As a personal aside, I might mention that I have recently become more actively involved in our Novus Ordo parish (please, no remarks about being "insufficiently Trad"). One of the paradoxes of this parish is that the practice of Eucharistic Adoration is enkindling among the people a profound devotion to our Eucharistic Lord, while yet the Mass remains, well, a mess. It is my fervent hope that the Lord will use me as an instrument of change and that the Motu Proprio will be the catalyst. While I would prefer not to disclose the name of the parish, please pray for me and for my Novus Ordo brethren (many of whom will resist the Motu Proprio), that a true liturgical renewal will spread far and wide, penetrating the heart and soul of this parish and many others. In Jesus Christ's most precious Name, amen.

As to Signor Palmo, he hasn't posted anything at all in a few days. I'm sure when it happens, he'll refer to the Schmitz interview, and say "You heard it here first!"

Anyway: this is wonderful. Something from Cardinal Bertone is more valuable even than from Cardinal Castrillon. This cannot be gainsaid. And the reference to the Pope's reasoning being explained to the faithful, and especially the bishops...o quanta qualia!

This is the most authoritarive statement possible comming from the Holy See confirming that a decision on the Tridentine Rite has been made by the Pope and it will see the light of day. The dices have been rolled. We will have to wait and see. Cardinal Secretary of State Bertone's words are very clear.

"...surprised that the Philadelphian hasn't yet posted..." If it doesn't have something to do with a) himself or b) the dashing good looks of Msgr. Ganswein, the "Philadelphian" is not quick to post on anything.

Brideshead, if you are dissapointed then you definitely are deppressed and do not understand Benedict XVI. Up until this minute Benedict XVI has been consistent with himself and with the faith of the Catholic Church. No surprises will arise from the Mp. The point of the matter is if reconciliation will happen in the Catholic Church. But Benedict XVI is no God and cannot change, by himself and automatically, the profound crisis in which the Church is engulfed. However, let's hope that he will lead the Church in the clear path of reconcilition and purification from all the filth which currently fills the clergy. Whatever the MP says, it will not be a dissapointed because it will manifest, again, the true nature of Benedict XVI and of the Catholic Church. So NO, no dissapointment.

"And the reference to the Pope's reasoning being explained to the faithful, and especially the bishops...o quanta qualia!"

As Fr. Zuhlsdorf has observed, the fact that these comments were made in the French press means that "the reference to the Pope's reasoning being explained . . . especially to the bishops" is a shot over the bow for the French bishops who flew into such a panic a few months ago and tried to quash the Motu Proprio.

And Benjoyce, could we please not bring up unnapproved, spurious apparitions and wild speculations about the end times? That would derail this thread into unproductive and unedifying controversy.

I'm sorry that ingratitude has marred this, of all days. Cardinal Bertone's remarks give us the most solid for hope and happiness we have had yet. He has announced what amounts to the greatest blow struck for Tradition in decades.

This is a time for unity and charity among ourselves. In particular, our thanks are due to New Catholic for the considerable service he provides to English-speaking traditional Catholics, not the least part of which is his sanity!

has anyone ever thought that one positive fruit of vii's liturgical reforms may be the traditional movement? if the new mass didn't turn out to be such a mess, how would we ever appreciate the splendor of the traditional latin mass?

God allows evil so that greater good may result. now we can say to the progressive types that a more didatic pastoral liturgy is not the answer but a greater understanding and appreciation of the tridentine mass is.

Anony mous is correct,you really dont appreciate something until you have lost it.There were certainly books detailing the spiritual splendor of the liturgy prior to 1965 (eg.works by Guardini and Fortescue) but I do not believe we would have the wonderful and learned works we have today especially those by Cardinal Ratzinger if we had not had to spend time in the desert.The NO is a valid mass but I think in terms of marriage.The bride is your bride whether she be in rags or dressed in glory.You will not appreciate the beauty of your wife until she begins to put on weight and become sloppy.I know this may be sexist but I am celibate. Another comparison is being away from home.No matter how great a time you have there is no place like home.You begin to see the things of home in a different life when they are no there.Everytime I celebrate mass (NO)I try to do it reverently especially in latin.But when I celebrate it I cannot hide my homesickness.Soon many of us will be allowed to come home.

Just a little correction. Though John XXIII maid small changes to the Tridentine Rite Missal in 1962, the Tridentine Mass still was referred to as the Missal of St. Pius V, or the Mass of St. Pius V. It's not the Missal of John XXIII. Let's not forget who should get credit for the Tridentine Latin Mass...St. Pius V.

There's even 2 Orders of priests dedicated to St. Pius V which use the Tridentine Latin Mass he promulgated. One in the USA(admittedly) is schismatic....the other in Italy is just starting out with a handful of priests ,seminarians, and brothers in the Milan Archdiocese. They will be modeled after St. Charles Borromeo and have the name "Oblates of Saint Charles Boromeo". They will use only the Tridentine Rite. Cardinal Tettamanzi accepted them fairly enthusiastically, but his predecessor, the dissident Cardinal Martini is against them..and has a hissy fit all the way in Jerusalem where he is living when he heard of them starting up in his former digs.

It is hard to tell if I am counted among the ingrates, since my last comment was apparently not approved. We shall see. In any case, I will reply to Humboldt that I am not preparing myself to be disappointed by the Motu Proprio. My point, poorly made it seems, was that we should not be "disappointed" if the Pope makes certain affirmations of the Novus Ordo in the context of liberating the Traditional Mass. I can easily live with the former for the sake of the latter.

"anonymous" is right and wrong. Nobody is depriving s. Pius V for the 1st edition of the Roman missal in 1570. "Tridentine" is a more questionable name because the Council did ... nothing at all. Moreover the Papal commission mandated by Pius V mainly used previous editions of the Roman liturgy with limited modifications. So the "Tridentine" has nothing properly "tridentine" in it ; and in fact, the Pian missal is proposing a far older Traditional Roman rite.In this regard, the edition promulgated by Bl. John XXIII, as a consequence of the small revisions introduced by another Papal commission, is a similar process.

I personally like the name "missal of John XXIII", because it is historically correct and ... somewhat "funny". When you know about the legend of "Roncalli the revolutionary pope", it is gratifying to credit pope John, a true traditionalist in term of liturgy, with this 1962 edition of the Traditional Roman missal : probably the best way to say but ... terribly long.

As for the big news : now we have another "big shot", the biggest one under the pope, who is letting us hope the "MP" is nearly there. Good but I'm still waiting for the proper release of the genuine text. When I read the official document on the Vatican website, I will comment and share happiness. After 2 years of permanent disillusion, I imitate saint Thomas the Apostle.

The Moto Proprio, as I have tried to point out in other places, may well deal with the (re) ordering and disciplining of the Novus Ordo. SC was not the proper place for that IMHO. We'll see. Additionally, Archbishop Ranjith is on record recently as stating that eventually Catholics will vote with their feet (when the two rites coexist) and the Novus Ordo will end up without bums on pews. Perhaps we'll see about that too. As for me, I have issues with the Latin Mass...not least of which is the insistence on whisperng the words of consecration. I know why, but I disagree strongly, *very* strongly.

Let me repeat something here I continually post on my own blog -

From last November:Italian journalist Gianni Cardinale, asked Bertone about atheists who may support the Pope on certain issues such as his stance on Islam. “If I can put it in a sound-bite,” Bertone said as translated by Vatican reporter John Allen, “the church doesn’t really worry about atheists, however devout, because they’re out of her spiritual jurisdiction, so to speak. Much more worrisome are those inside the church who work to distort its faith and moral principles, or who oppose the pope and his design for renewal of the church.”

A request to anonymous:I live in Milan, and I know a couple of traditionalist priests here, but I've never heard about a new priestly society of "Oblates of St. Charles Borromeo" devoted to the Traditional Ambrosian Rite in Milan. Honestly, I find it quite strange that Card. Tettamanzi could ever accept them, too... But I'd be glad to know more about this new society! Could you please give us more details?Thank you very much.

When this document finally appears and affirms that the Traditional Mass is the heritage of EVERY Catholic, we will have the leverage that we need to affect change in our Novus Ordo parishes. There are many in those parishes who truly love our Lord Jesus Christ, as evidenced by the resurgence of Eucharistic Adoration. When the Pope explains his reasons for liberating the Traditional Mass and even (God willing) celebrates the Mass of Ages in St. Peter's Square, we can say: "See, my friends, how can anyone who truly loves our Lord Jesus Christ be hostile to the Traditional Mass?" The thoughts of many hearts will be revealed and, hopefully, the scales will fall from many eyes.

Interesting point, Simon-Peter, about the inaudible Canon. Athanasius provides on the right panel of his blog a video clip of the moment of consecration. Aside from the Latin language, the inaudible Canon is one of the most striking differences between the Novus Ordo and the Traditional Mass. It is a difference worth pondering.

This is a different anon than the other anons that have posted thus far...

I am looking forward to the MP not just because of the release of the Mass, but also to see what other items are included that may give us a better understanding what Pope Benedict thinks with regards to the renewal of the Church. Additionally, it will be interesting if it addresses other issues that are connected like will priests have some sort of right to request all of the sacraments for the faithful according to the 62 books from his bishop ... and can a seminarian request ordination in the old rite if he has the right to say Mass in the old rite (therefore addressing issues related to the minor/major orders that do not exist between the old and new.

I'm so excited for the release of the motu proprio!!! I'm currently writing a research paper on the the history and struggle for the Traditional Latin Mass. The paper is due close to the end of April. I hope the Holy Father announces it soon. This will be good for my paper and for the teachers and sisters at my catholic all girls highschool.Ora pro nobis Sanctis Petero et Pius V

About the "inaudible" Canon: Ratzinger in his "Feast of Faith" pointed out that the CANON need not be recited loudly, and therefore there is no need for multiplication of Eucharistic prayers. The multiplication is there because people would get bored always hearing the same old thing. But in the Traditional Mass, the Canon is not said silently, only softly. It is the priest offering sacrifice to the Father in Persona Christi on our behalf, and it is a great moment for personal meditation, reflection, and prayer by the faithful on this cosmic event taking place at the altar. Being influenced by the Novus Ordo and various non-Catholic liturgies, it seemed to me like a good idea for the Canon to be recited out loud. But it is now a distraction from my inner participation at the Novus Ordo Mass. It actually bothers me. But even for the Novus Ordo, it is not necessary for the Canon to be recited out loud, as neither is it necessary for the Canon to be celebrated versus populum. Of course the local Bishop may have different ideas. Ted

I think it was Martin Mosebach who suggested referring to the traditional Roman rite as "the Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great." Interesting idea.

On the "whispered" consecration, let us keep in mind the Council of Trent, which said (Sess. 22, Can. 9): "If anyone says that the rite of the Roman Church, according to which a part of the canon and the words of consecration are pronounced in a low tone, is to be condemned ... let him be anathema."

Ted's and Poeta's comments remind me of what has been said of the Mass of Padre Pio:

'“Whoever attended just one Mass of his, never forgot it,” noted a friend of his, Padre Alberto D'Apolito. “It produced such an impression that time and space between the altar and Calvary disappeared. The Mass of Padre Pio visibly reproduced the Passion of Christ, not only in a mystical form, but also physically, in his body. Waves of emotion made Padre Pio tremble at the altar as if the struggle with invisible persons filled him, time after time, with fear, joy, sadness, anguish, and pain. From the expression on his face, one could follow the mysterious dialogue.”

'It is said he saw the entire Passion, and we know that he physically suffered the wounds of Jesus — so intense that often he wept during the readings. Notes another biographer, the saint was motionless for long moments at the offering of bread and wine, “as if nailed by a mysterious force,” eyes moist, staring at the Crucifix. During the Consecration, St. Pio's hands sometimes jerked back with pain (the Consecration lasting several times longer than normal) and after, he seemed exhausted from the suffering, leaning over the altar for minutes at a time to commune with the Lord.

'He suffered during the Consecration. He glowed during Communion. He saw angels and saints. He saw the splendor of God and Paradise open. Throughout Mass, St. Pio seemed to be peering into another dimension. At the side, he said he could see the Blessed Mother. Was the Madonna present at every Mass, he was asked? “Yes.” Did angels always attend? “The whole celestial court is present.” Whoever doubted the Real Presence, says D'Apolito, had only to assist at St. Pio's Mass.'http://www.michaeljournal.org/stpio.htm

yes, I said I understood the reasons, but that I disagreed with them: I don't think they support the conlusion. It seems to me that nothing in the world focuses the mind and heart upwards more than "hic est enim calix sanguinis mei." In anycase I say them to myself as the priest performs his sacred action.

I do *not* condemn it! :-)...I said I disagree, strongly, with the reasons for it. That's all, no less, no *more*.

I still dunno about the validity of all this speculation. My hopes have been raised SO many times that I cannot bring my spirit to gather 'round this tidbit. I hope it is true. I will continue to pray it is true. With the Faith falling on all sides of the Church, what in the world could be the problem of throwing a bone to the cranks like me? C'mon, B16, we're counting on you! +Craig Kelso

I think it was Martin Mosebach who suggested referring to the traditional Roman rite as "the Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great." Interesting idea.

Poeta,In the Orthodox Church that is exactly what we call it. The Liturgy of Pope St. Gregory the Great (or Gregory Dialogos). It is one of three Western Liturgical Rites which are permitted in some Orthodox jurisdictions.

Simon-Peter's question about the "quiet Canon" (or "quiet Consecration") has had the salutary effect of reminding me what really distinguishes the Traditional Mass from the Novus Ordo: it is the intensity of the priestly action in the former and its diminishment in the latter. Look at how Padre Pio participated in the Passion of our Lord, as he acted in Persona Christi. Granted, not every priest who celebrates the Traditional Mass does so with St. Pio's instensity. Yet the Traditional Mass with its quiet Canon does seem to lend itself to a more intense participation on the part of the priest. There is a certain irony here: *actuosa participatio* begins with the priest. Where it is lacking in the priest, it becomes a carictature in the hyper-activity of the people.

St. Pio never "performed" the Mass. He PARTICIPATED in the sacrifice that he offered in Persona Christi. That is not only due to the holiness of St. Pio -- it is also due to the very nature of the Traditional Mass.

Craig Kelso said: "I still dunno about the validity of all this speculation."

Which speculation? The only thing left to speculate about is when the Pope will release the Motu Proprio, and what the Motu Proprio will actually say. Judging from Cardinal Bertone's words, there is no longer grounds to doubt that it will be released.

In the Novus Ordo the role of the priest is dimished from the very outset. Prior to the opening procession, a lay minster invites (commands) us: "Stand and greet your neighbor!" The opening procession is led by a group of very important layfolk, with the priest following.

Such baneful aspects of the Novus Ordo can and should be easily changed under the influence of the Traditional Mass.

I agree that we shouldn't refer to the Tridentine mass solely as the innovation of Pius V (on the other hand, we may refer to the Novus Ordo mass as the "mass of Paul VI", since that mass was, literally, the product of a 1969 liturgical think-tank.)

The mass, before 1969, was one of continuous growth and slight changes through the centuries. In the very earliest centuries of Christianity, we know for a fact that many of the basic elements of the mass existed, such as the Kyrie, Credo etc., and were sung in latin.

Saint-Denis Cathedral, just north of Paris, has a crypt dating to 475 AD, and the bulk of the church is early medieval. Denis has perhaps the best preserved and most liturgical books of any Cathedral. This is chronicled in the excellent book, "The Service-books of the Royal Abbey of Saint Denis; Images of Ritual and Music in the Middle Ages", by Anne Walters Robertson. Here, we have a chronology of the gallican and roman rites dating back to the sixth century.

By the fourteenth century, the mass would have been nearly indistinguishable from the “mass of Pius V”. One could enter Notre Dame in Paris in, say, 1390 and pray a Tournai mass, and find all of the elements of the Tridentine mass. I recommend picking up a recording of the Tournai mass—it’s gorgeous! Harmonia mundi has a nice rendering on their CD “Ancient Voices, vox sacra”.

Like the great Cathedrals, the mass was built over centuries to give us the crowning achievement and expression of sublime beauty that we all had until 1970. In fact, it was for the liturgy that the Cathedral was built. I hope we all can share in our rightful heritage once again, and soon! It must be remembered that it was the latin mass that formed and nurtured the greatest saints through the centuries.

Poeta:Your comments yesterday impressed me. There is a problem with giving a name to the pre-conciliar Mass because that Mass has been developing organically over the centuries. Some call it the "Classical Mass", but there were a few in history that could be so called including those in Byzantium. Some also call it the "Traditional Latin Mass", but again, there were a few of those in 1962 such as the Dominican and Ambrosian. Others call it the "Tridentine Mass", but that name should be avoided. In the first place, Trent merely regularised its use, and made only a few minor changes to it, so there is little "Tridentine" about it. In the second place, the term "Tridentine" has too often been used pejoratively, dismissing Trent as outdated and irrelevant to present times. Still others even call it the Mass of John XXIII, as he was the last to make changes to it (adding St. Joseph to the Canon). So where does one draw a line? The name "The Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great" is magnificent. The Mass used widely in 1962 was essentially formed by the time of Gregory. Organic changes certainly developed thereafter, but these were not radical. Indeed, some Orthodox (and not so-Orthodox - the Copts) and the Anglicans(i.e the Sarum version) occasionally use it and name it so: what a wonderful name in the interests of Ecumenism! For short, it could be referred to as "The Gregorian Rite", or "Mass of St. Gregory", although perhaps not "The Gregorian Mass", as this is now often used to describe the Mass using the chant attributed to St. Gregory. That name would contrast well tradition to the committee fabricated new Mass of Paul VI. Just a thought....Ted

Thank you Chris. It feels good to be agreed with. My comments met with a rather different reaction yesterday. I tend to agree with myself in most everything I say. Although I must admit, when I do disagree with myself, I can be quite pointed in my remarks to myself. In fact while addressing myself upon one occaision, I took my own tone to be so thoroughly objectionable, that I refused to speak to myself for weeks. Fortunately, a sentiment of genuine Christian charity prevailed between us. I forgave myself, and myself and I have been the best of friends ever since!

Can you tell I saw a production of Gilbert & Sullivan's "Iolanthe" lately?!