Q&A with CEO Wilfried Graebert

At the Berlin 2018 Annual Meeting

Editors attending the Berlin 2018 Graebert Annual Meeting had the opportunity to interview Graebert Gmbh CEO Wilfried Graebert, CTO Robert Graebert, and head of sales and marketing Cedric Desbordes.

The big news from Berlin was Dassault Systemes' early announcement that they are adopting ARES Cloud from Graebert, tentatively named DraftSight Cloud. The formal announcement is scheduled to be made at February's Solidworks World 2019.

Here are my notes from the 90-minute Q&A session.

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Cedric Desbordes: Let me begin by explaining that ARES Kudo has two parts: a hub for file access, and a DWG editor. ARES Cloud has only the editor with SSO [single sign-on], plus a link to a single file system. Some OEMs want to use their own file system, and so they use the hub-less Kudo Cloud, such as Dassault Systemes with their 3Ddrive. The current Solidworks ID will transition to a single sign-on with Dassault to connect to certain properties Dassault has.

Dassault does not have a cloud CAD, other than XDesign, which is a different beast. So DraftSight Cloud from us is their first one.

Robert Graebert: As of the first quarter, we have full 2D editing features in Kudo [browser CAD], and two million users of DraftSight [which is based on ARES Commander for the desktop].

Wilfried Graebert: DraftSight has its own API [application programming interface] written by Solidworks, but it will have to be replaced to work with 3DExperience.

CD: The benefit of the connection with 3dExperience is that it lets DraftSight Cloud access services like Marketplace to 3D-print models.

Q: It seems to me to be an odd troika in which Graebert works deeply with both Onshape and Solidworks/Dassault Systemes, yet Onshape has vowed to replace Solidworks.

RG: They are very different players in the industry. Onshape has livened up that part of the industry, and you see Dassault with XDesign and other products coming along -- all for the better.

WG: We have to stay independent.

RG: We would like to see more companies embracing the cloudy product. I never really liked [Autodesk] Fusion with that big install. It's more like our ARES Commander desktop program with a connection to the cloud, instead of being fully browser-based with no install, and updates in the background. XDesign is much closer to that vision than Fusion.

WG: Third-party developers don’t want too much work switching away from AutoCAD, and so Graebert created FxARX. We will phase out the old ARES API over the next few years.

RG: You may have heard the announcement that [Graebert-partner] Corel Software bought Gravit, the vector drawing program for browsers <https://gravit.io>. I was interested in it, followed it on Twitter, when the feed went dead recently. Now I know why.

Q: Twitter has become the new canary in the coal mine!

Graebert Gmbh CTO Robert Graebert (standing at center)

RG: We had conversations with Onshape going fully cloud-only, fully SaaS[software as a service]. Is that really broad enough to really capture the full market, or is it too narrow? I think they are betting that this is going to work.

We are pragmatic. If you want to run your own deployment, we'll give that to you. If you want to run it on-prem [on-premise], we'll give that to you. We are much more comfortable being a component supplier.

Q: You had said at the conference, “We are finally moving towards the goal of drawing technology becoming as ubiquitous as writing technology.” Can you elaborate on this, because I am not sure I see that.

CD: While people have been drafting for a long time, there are many more who use the drawings -- view it or use it by marking up, analyzing it, and re-purposing it for technical publications and marketing. This is what I mean by "ubiquity." Also, ARES is 8x cheaper than AutoCAD.

WF: Especially In Germany, drafters tend to be engineers and architects, not like drafters using AutoCAD in USA. So they are used to sophisticated interfaces and capabilities. But there are contractors, such as those who do kitchen renovations, who want a simpler interface and a cheaper price, and might make only Euro 50 for a job, so it has to go quick. The UI [user interface] has to have several levels, starting with a simple one and then going deeper. These things are getting more and more important. Graebert worked with a university to check out different UIs to see how we can simplify things.

Q: With many technology products, you put it out there, and then find out how it will be used.

RG: Selling to businesses is different from selling a single seat [of software]. Firms want work on a fixed budget, but initially they do not know who in the firm will be using it. In the past, we sold a network license for, say, 100 users. But now it is possible to pay an amount upfront for 100 employees per year, and then they get a credit from us for each day an employee does not use it. We balance the account at the end of the year.

Some of the media reporting from the Berlin 2018 Graebert Annual Meeting

Q: No doubt someone somewhere is working on a Revit workalike, just waiting for the Open Design Alliance to release the full Revit API, and then drop in the RVT API -- open, view, edit, and save.

RG: IFCs [industry foundation classes] were never mandated [for translation between BIM programs], just like DWG was never meant for translation. Customers just expected it.

Q: IFCs are being used because there is nothing else, just like IGES used to be used just because it was available, and then DXF.

RG: There are all the rumblings of the BIM vendors saying 'We're going to have a common data format internally, we're not going to use IFCs, we going to use something custom'.

We have a lot of smaller partners in the AEC ecosystem(who we can't talk about today), and so we have to think, "What is our strategy, what are we going to do, what do we want our partners to do." We have it running on our developer machines and now we have to see how we deal with Revit.

Having Revit as an underlay results in some interesting workflows. Annotating Revit files, exporting Revit families, is a part of that. Kudo allows all files of a project to be seen, no matter where in the cloud they are stored (accessed by folders on drives like Box). Deep linking accesses a single piece of data in the drawing, like text or a floor area.

We want to be more than the DWG-CAD or design-CAD; we want to be the documentation-CAD. With a Web platform [like Kudo], we see a different use case. This project [for example] consists of five DGN files, one Revit model, three PDF files, and a couple of DWGs: I want to see the whole project, I want to annotate them, and so that is something we are going to put together.

Now with DGN and Revit files, do we want to let users make small edits to them? I don't know, that's down the road a bit. I want to prioritize the commenting and viewing first.

Q: Nobody needs to be the next Revit, but someone out there is going to think they need to be.

WG: Of course.

CD: It's like someone saying they want to be the next Solidworks [referring to Onshape]!

RG: A non-insignificant number of people have said to us, "Build Revit in a browser," but it is a lot of work.

WF: The problems [in development] are more complicated now. You can no longer have 10 programmers. Going on the cloud needs money and people. It has to be developed, so show me the money [to fund the development]. And it needs a sales channel: it cannot be sold only on the Internet. I think this is where most people will fail; they don't have the infrastructure to sell it.

RG: MCAD [mechanical CAD] is simple compared to Revit. MCAD only has three parts, assemblies, and drawings. Revit has not just the building shell, but construction, engineering, steel works, electrical, HVAC, cladding, and on and on. It is not just one product; it is ten products. It is a very difficult problem to solve, and so a Revit won’t be coming from Graebert.

CD: Graebert does have BIM [building information modeling] when it comes to our SiteMaster line. It accepts data from laser measuring tools and manual entry), and it has simple aspects, like 3D elevation of the floor, walls with thickness, doors and windows.

Graebert Gmbh SiteMaster Product Manager Felix Graebert

RG: Graebert is a user of Amazon cloud [AWS], but we are always looking for ways to cut costs. The primary need is to minimize latency, and AWS provides this: Graebert is on six continents, and AWS makes it possible, but this increases the cost to Graebert. So we ramp down the use of one Amazon server when a country starts to go to sleep, reducing the demand on the server, and redirect to the next nearest one.

Some customers can get a dedicated environment from us, but this means that they have extra cost, because they are no longer sharing computing resources.

The problem with services like Frame is that they need to use graphics boards[to produce the CAD graphics remotely], they suffer from latency, and it is expensive. It has all the drawbacks to the cloud with none of the benefits!

The benefit of a true cloud is that software can segregate tasks. For instance, one server alone is responsible for generating thumbnails from DWG files for Kudo, but does so only after you open a folder for the first time. This means that the thumbnails might not appear immediately.

On the Graebert to-do list is support for NextCloud, which allows you to run your own cloud at home, which is the private cloud. [Graebert already supports WebDAV.]

Q: What are your thoughts on edge computing?

RG: Well, there are definitions of edge computing. We don’t want to be on-demand, where events trigger actions and so cause delays. CAD editing really lives on a fast connection.

Having a common UI makes it easier for desktop users come over to the cloud device. (Underneath, they are very different.) The shared history means customers can bring their customizations over. Forge is very different from AutoCAD, but there are some benefits to starting fresh.

Q: What is ARES Mechanical?

RG: It came out when we realized that there is still a need for a mechanical toolset in 2D. A lot of time is wasted by mechanical designers using general CAD, like applying non-specific hatch patterns or drawing screws from scratch. ARES Mechanical supports standards and standard parts, and has a UI specific to mechanical design. India has a big market for 2D mechanical drafting, and so we started there. There is a need in other markets, and so we are introducing ARES Mechanical in Germany and Japan.

WG: There are few mechanical packages on the market anymore, and so we decided to refresh it.

RG: Next year, we will decide if it becomes a plug-in or remains a vertical. With Autodesk pushing everything into “tool sets” with their One AutoCAD, we think they will cut back on the development of verticals. This is why we have our Mechanical product, a Map product, and in a few years there might be users who need someone [like Graebert] who is devoted to it.

At one time, Solidworks said 3D is dead, but now it is returning to promoting 2D [through DraftSight]. We see that there is part of the market that will stay with 2D. Some companies are going from 2D desktop to 2D cloud, and skipping 3D.

CD: DraftSight 2019 will be able to create simple 3D objects that can be analyzed in Solidworks.

WG: As we are the only ones doing CAD on all three platforms [and six OSes], we have to try things to see what works for people. We can’t look around to see what others are doing, because the competition is only doing enough to keep selling updates.

[Disclosure: Graebert Gmbh provided me with partial airfare, accommodation, and some meals while in Berlin.]

ARES KUDO: MODERN DWG EDITING IN THE CLOUD

ARES Kudo is the only online CAD solutionoffering a full set of 2D features to read, create, modify, andshare DWG and DXF drawings.

Nothing to install. It runs in your Web browser and your files follow you on any device. ARES Kudo is integrated with cloud storage services like Google Drive, Dropbox, Box, Microsoft OneDrive, OneDrive for Business -- and industry-specific solutions such as Onshape and Trimble Connect.

Nemetschek Group Q3 revenues were up 20% to EUR 114.9 million. The strongest growth was in the Group's Build division (Bluebeam, Solibri), up 35%. Nemetschek expects to earn the equivalent of US$520 million this year. ir.nemetschek.com/websites/nemetschek/English/2110/

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Avontus Software last week released a new version of their Scaffold Designer software, built on Visio. Also, they now have Scaffold Viewer for Android and iOS to see 3D scaffold models in-situ using augmented reality. www.avontus.com

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AutoTURN from Transoft has been added to PlexEarth to show vehicle sweep paths directly in Google Earth. www.transoftsolutions.com

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C3D Labs has adopted it geometric kernel to work with pressurized vessels and nozzles. PSRE adopted the C3D Modeler for its PASS/EQIP software that performs structural pressure vessel analysis. c3dlabs.com/en/sources/blog

For late-breaking CAD news, follow upFront.eZine on Twitter at @upfrontezine.

Letters to the Editor

Re: Q&A with CEO Erik de Keyser

Sorry to hear about the acquisition of BricsCAD by Hexagon. Normally, nothing good comes from this type of arrangement. Prices increase and services decrease. I hope I'm wrong. - Dik Coates, P.Eng Winnipeg, Canada

The editor replies: Hexagon says they'll let Bricsys operate as before, but they also are the company that changed the venerable name of Intergraph to Hexagon PPM.

Wow Ralph, great info there on BricsCAD and Hexagon. I had read the news weeks ago from another news source but this really clears up what the companies are aiming at together. I really enjoyed Owen’s input as well; he’s been another stalwart in the CAD world as long as I can remember.

You might understand better why I especially appreciated reading this issue of upFront immediately after I had just read this opinion from Computerworld on lock-in. As a 30-year Autodesk user and now developer, it looks like there really might be an end to the CAD lock-in. Now if only I could find a truly secure OS to replace my dependence on iOS devices so I can end phone and tablet lock-in. - Ron Powell

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My experience with various CAD systems goes all the way back to HoginCAD (not sure of the spelling), early AutoCAD (it ran on an NCR DM5 computer that booted either MS-DOS or CP/M) and CadKey.

When I retired about five years ago, I chose BricsCAD-pro among the few CAD systems I could afford to keep my fingers in the game, so to speak. The one major thing that your story about BricsCAD and Intergraph left out was that BrisCAD is one of the few major CAD systems that runs on Linux, as well as those two 'other' operating systems. - Lewis Balentine Texas

The editor replies: You are correct that BricsCAD is one of the very few CAD systems to run on Linux, MacOS, and Windows.

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I am amazed that their revenue was so low (13 million euros) having been in the AutoCAD clone business for so long. It makes you wonder if the clone business model is sustainable and whether it was just as well that they were bought just in time to jump on Hexagon's, which seems to be based on merging 3D models, Primavera and estimation software, targeting fellow Swede big contractor's Skanska's needs; see https://youtu.be/WlE7cJvEn1c?t=164.

Seems like there will be a three-way race between Hexagon/Intergraph/BricsCAD, Trimble/Sketchup/Tekla and Topcon/Bentley in the megaproject petrochem, building and infrastructure sectors. I wonder if Aveva/PDMS (Intergraph's big rival in the petrochem sector) will now feel left out being unattached to either big sensor/metrology or wider civils/bldg ecosystem? - Dwy Seah (via WorldCAD Access)

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Great article on BricsCAD. Thanx for writing it! A couple weeks ago I read an email from the local BricsCAD VAR [value added reseller] that they sold out to Hexagon. I was floored, so I wrote them and told them so. My first thought was: More CAD market warfare via monopolies and cartels. I think I was right!

My initial surmise is that Hexagon has been working with BricsCAD for a while, aiming to undermine AutoCAD seats in the world market.

I remember learning Microstation by Intergraph (“days of yore”!). It was so complicated, had so many graphics hardware problems that i dropped it.

I like BricsCAD, and prefer it over AutoCAD. All’s I know is, Hexagon products and software are so overpriced that us little guys can’t afford them.

Speaking of BIM, I recently learned to use [Autodesk, nee Graitec] Advance Steel and [Trimble, nee Tekla Software] Tekla -- still learning Tekla, LOTS to learn! Advance Steel is a pretty good program if you like fiddling around with it forever to get it to make “automatic drawings”(!). Customizing automatic drawings is like trying to assemble a 5,000-piece puzzle while reeling from a 5th of Irish whiskey.

Inventor is very good at machinery, but sucks at structural; Advance Steel is fairly good at structural, but sucks at anything else. You need both working together to do the jobs in a timely manner and at a reasonable price.

There is no bi-directional associativity between Inventor and Advance Steel. There isn’t even one-way associativity between Inventor and Advance Steel. In fact, you can’t get any “intelligent data” into Advance Steel from Inventor. The same is true on all three counts vice versa.

Revit is a conglomeration of a lot of things, but not enough to be anywhere near as good as Tekla. It too won’t receive or give intelligent CAD data to inventor. Result: NONE of the three Autodesk programs share their intelligent data -- at least without any problems in the Revit promises.

I just want to know what Autodesk is thinking? One would think that after all these years Autodesk would have enabled their CAD data to interchange between programs. What has Autodesk been spending all their market profits on?

Tekla is so feature rich, that they finally sorted it out enough for non-geniuses like me to use. Tekla is far more robust than Advance Steel ever hopes to be. I think it’s because they’re finally uniform-izing their GUI and work-flows for us non-highly-paid end-users.

I think Graitech shot themselves in the foot when they sold-out to Autodesk. Let’s see if that’s true of BricsCAD.

I like it when you spike my blood pressure!- Chris Cadman

The editor replies: Intergraph never produced Microstation; it was written by Bentley Systems, while Intergraph did the marketing and sales for Bentley.

(Intergraph initially sued Bentley for producing a workalike that ran on PCs at a time when Intergraph's software only ran on its own custom computers. When it realized that PCs were not a joke, it realized it needed Bentley. The arrangement ended after Intergraph wrote its own PC software.)

Hexagon has been working with Bricsys for 1.5 years, initially in porting CADWorx from AutoCAD to BricsCAD.

The Bricsys idea to have all verticals use the DWG format (plus custom support files) is certainly a big contrast to the Autodesk idea of having most of its verticals use formats incompatible with one another.

Mr Cadman responds: I agree that making the data interchangeable is the way to go. I've been waiting for that my entire career. Now that I'm 'old and gray', they're on the verge.

I’d like to thank you for this article. It puts the finger on the sore spot and, once again, clearly indicates that the market is insufficiently informed about the level of cooperation through open BIM standards.

To begin, IFC is not an exchange format, but rather a collaboration format. IFC is not intended for round-tripping, but rather to inform partners in the (design and construction) process in the way that it should be done -- by everyone taking their own responsibility and exchanging meaningful information.

I believe that bypassing the shortcomings in IFC is not solved by developing direct links in an API. After all, there is so much more specialized software on the market than we can imagine. Focusing on collaboration and less on compatibility will increase the acceptance of IFC (and other open standards). - Rob Roef (via WorldCAD Access) OPEN BIM Program Manager, Graphisoft