SarathW wrote:a) As per Abhidhamma, Cittas are considered as Paramattha. I accept, as it is for the time being

This is one of the things I need to make sense of. If billions of cittas arise and pass away in an instant what is paramattha (ultimate) there? If we look at the stream of cittas (which we label as citta) then such a stream is an abstraction or just a concept, then how can it be seen as paramattha? If we look at an individual citta that arises and passes away instantly, then where is parmattha even there? Or, perhaps I am not understanding the meaning of paramattha.

Last edited by SarathW on Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

According to Abhidhamma there are for Paramatthas. (ultimate realities)Summary of which is:

Four Ultimate Realities (Paramattha Dhammaa)

1)Consciousness (Citta)2)The mental factors (Cetasika) i.e Feeling (Vedana) and Perception (Sanna) which are arise as a result of consciousness (samkhara)3)Material form (Ruppa) –This includes body, sex and seat of consciousness. The body-decade is composed of the Four Primary Elements –Extension, cohesion, heat, motion (Pathavi, apo, tejo, vayo)

4)Nirvana (Nibbaana) – Nirvana is an unconditioned reality. All other three are conditioned realities.There are four stage of sainthood – Stream-winner (Sotapatti), Once-Returner (Sakadagami), Non-Returner (Anagami), Worthy (Arahatta)

---The trouble is that you think you have time------Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe------It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

its paramatha because it is real, it is irreducible, it exists: albeit only soooo briefly.

it is different from concepts like people etc which seem to ive for years but which have no reality at all: they are merely the shadow, the nimitta, of combinations of many many different paramathha dhammas.

Actually the question I want to ask was, why do we call something exist if it is dependently originated. If it is dependently originated there is no absolute thing exist. Am I correct to say that Rupa and Citta also co exist since it says that Rupa’s consist of seventeen thought moments. (Kalapas)

The reason that it is real is precisely BECAUSE it is conditioned to arise. If it were an imaginary thing like horns on a rabbot, or simply a designation like human or self then it is not dependently conditioned.The only exception is nibbana which is unconditioned.

Thanks Mikedear SarathIn the lute simile it is the sound that is real, not the lute, but remember both the chariot and lute similes are only analogies. The key is to understand the difference between concept and reality in real life...

Sound is real(but empheral). Sound seems to last for a split second or longer, but actually there are many different sounds - maybe very close in character- that are arising and passing away even during a split second.

My primitive understanding of Paramatta is it is still a suburb of Sydney, very close to Dundas where I was raised!!

18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John

Good one Lyndon. I never noticed it. “H” is not silent in my language.

By the way Robert, the sound is the result of lute which is not real. So how an unreal object produce real sounds?

What do you mean by real? I think this (Paramattha/real etc) is just a relative statement.The ultimate objective of Abhidhamma is to understand Anatta.So if we understand by any means, I think that is the ultimate and the bottom line.Thank you all for your contributions.

In regard to house:What is real/exist is the aggregate hence the house (convention).So no bricks, timber or tiles exist/real

In regard to brick:What is real/exist is the aggregate hence the brick (convention)So no sands, cement etc exist/realAm I correct?

Not quite... you are introducing a side effect by taking sands and cements as making up the brick. There are only the four great elements or essentials that are making up the cement (ultimately the sand and therefore the brick as well). These are real or are what you ought to think as paramatthas.

The four essentials are sometimes known as cohesion, solidity, heat and motion.