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Oral History Interview with Fred McPeck
September 27, 2013
Interviewer: Cyns Nelson
Interview Transcribed by Cyns Nelson
[Interview takes place at the Valdez-Perry Branch Library in Denver, Colorado.]
00:00 CN: Today is September 27, 2013. My name is Cyns Nelson, and I’m conducting oral histories with residents from the Globeville, Elyria, and Swansea neighborhoods. This interview is part of the Denver Public Library’s “Creating Your Community” project, and the oral history will be archived with the Western History Department. Right now I’m talking with Fred McPeck, a longtime business owner in the Elyria neighborhood.
So, let’s start by having you tell me your full name, and tell me when and where you were born, and then just share something about your upbringing.
FM: My full name: Frederick Clare McPeck. I was born in Bellefontaine, Ohio, in 1927. Went to elementary school there, high school. Worked in the factory at 14, where they manufactured funeral coaches and ambulances-at 14. At that time they were building war products: nacelles, or engine covers for pratwood [?]-aircraft engines for the war effort.
From there-when I was 17 I joined the Marine Corps and was in training at Camp LeJeune, North Carolina. Which, later, I found out was for the invasion of Japan, when they dropped the atomic bomb-and was elated about that. That sounds a little bit, maybe, counterintuitive (chuckling). But I went from a very bad situation to a very good situation. Went from there to Bermuda, Cuba, and Panama; and then was discharged later and went to college on the GI Bill, at Miami University in Ohio-and, after graduation, went to work for the same company, selling ambulances. That was 1950. Sold retail in Ohio-[_____]-through 1954.
1956, the company was bought out by a larger company. And then I had a chance to go on to sales management, first in New England and New York; then back to the factory, and was director of recruitment, dealer recruitment at the time.
In the meantime, in the early ‘50s, shortly after I started to work retail, I started to drive to Colorado to ski. And all THROUGH the ‘50s, I don’t think there was a year that I didn’t either drive here or fly here. Then later, as I came back to the factory in Ohio, I was calling on our dealer here-Winter Weiss-who was a schoolbus dealer-
CN: In Colorado.
FM: In Colorado. And built drilling equipment, and farm wagons, at-I think it was 2020 Blake Street, the exact location of today’s Coors Field. Was close friends with the Weiss family. As a matter of fact, the son, we skied together and worked together. As I moved around the country, they had been replaced by another dealer that didn’t work out; and then I was assigned to recruit someone to replace that dealer. There was a situation called-well, that floor plan, used in new ambulances on floor plan, with William Sales [?] Financial. My job was to kind of monitor that and to make sure that the dealers were up to date with their records and vehicles.
05:01 We repossessed a number of ambulances in Idaho and drove them back to Colorado. And I was able to negotiate those used cars, on consignment, from the factory, to start my own business as a dealer. (Light laughter) Then began to find out how well I had it (laughing) when I was working for the company! First located at 13th and Pearl, downtown Denver.
CN: And the year at that time was?
FM: Oh, pardon me. Let’s see, that would have been ’66, 1966. Then I moved to Corona street. And then, looking to own my own location-I was with a customer, and he stopped to make a phone call at the Morrison Drug Store at 47th and Brighton Boulevard. While I was waiting for him, I looked up on the Elyria Post Office building, and surprisingly saw that it was for sale. I couldn’t believe how a post-office building would be for sale.
Anyway, I pursued it. Met the nicest gentleman, the owner-investor-who not only had owned THAT building but was building the building for a lease with the postal service just north of there at about 49th and Brighton Boulevard. Signed a contract to buy the building, and finance it with Mountain States bank. He even offered to carry the financing on it. And during the period of closing, that same construction company that was building the building on Brighton Boulevard was building a post-office building in Golden, and it collapsed in construction. The walls collapsed. The contractor’s son had signed off on the engineering release, and he wasn’t a certified engineer. (Laughing.) The seller of the building I was buying, and the investor in the new building, called me and said: “Fred, we have a problem.” He said, “We’ll get it worked out, but there’s going to be a delay.”
Anyway, after a relatively short delay, I was able to buy the building; completely refurbished it, and put in overhead doors, and offices, and from there covered Colorado, Wyoming, and Montana, selling the company-again, AJ Miller, from Ohio, had become Miller-Meteor, joining another, merging with another competitor, ambulance manufacturer. Actually, then it was ambulances AND hearses. From there it progressed. And we were there 42 years.
CN: Let me just back up; say again the specific name of your business, once it was established.
FM: Pardon me. Yes, it was McPeck Motor Coach. (Laughing) Not ironically, but incidentally, during my time recruiting and training dealers, one of our big projects was to make sure they bought a sign identifying their business. And the-either “Wayne-Divco,” and Divco was the little snub-nosed milk truck that delivered 80 percent-after the horse-drawn deliveries-delivered 80 percent of the milk in the country. It was manufactured in suburban Detroit.
So, the Divco division, the Wayne division-which was school buses-and the ambulance-funeral hearse and ambulance division, Miller-Meteor, had one of their names on that sign plus the name of the dealership. And mine was McPeck Motor Coach. I still have that sign. As a matter of fact-we may take a picture of that. So anyway, for 42 years we had a sales force. We had a salesman that lived in Montana; and some that traveled out of Denver, including myself. Of course, I LOVED traveling Colorado.
09:51 Well, back to the ‘50s, when I started driving out here, the interstate started across the United States, under President Eisenhower. Gradually, as I would travel, I would see the development of the interstate freeway that routes at I-70. And then, of course, coming to Colorado, at that time we had to come through Aurora and take Colfax all the way through the city to take Route 6 to the mountains to ski areas. As a matter of fact, I first skied Berthoud Ski Area in, I believe, 1951 or two.
Matter of fact, got into a snow storm going over the top, went over the top without realizing it, and was down into Winter Park. Anyway, I went back to Berthoud, stayed there, and there was an Austrian family that was running the lodge there, then. I got quite friendly with them, evenings, after skiing-at the bar (laughing). Then I left to go on, to Steamboat and then back south to Aspen. Did that a number of times, and then brought other friends out to ski.
But, in all that time, I watched the highway develop. First we got off of I-70 at Aurora-to Colfax, as I said-and then later, I think the highway-can’t remember where we got off, but we drove through-the highway ran to Kipling, then we got off at Kipling to take Route 6 or 40 to the mountains. And then, of course, back to when I-19-’66, when I started traveling the area, I actually traveled every bit of the state in Wyoming, and Montana. Later we had salesman in Wyoming and Montana. Skied most of the areas, and sold [to] most of the companies. As a matter of fact, we sold Aspen their first ambulance and every ambulance thereafter until I retired in about 1995, I believe.
Now, when I hear about towns-things happening in those towns-Cedaredge, Delta, Hotchkiss, Paonia-every one of those towns, I had sold an ambulance. Stayed at the Jerome Hotel in Aspen. So, the funeral director in Aspen, Tom Sarti [sp?], who later-the funeral home was built into the Asarta [?] House, high-level lodge and restaurant. Sold a limousine to the Jerome Hotel and stayed at the Jerome quite a bit. Then had a friend that had the Boomerang Lodge there. Stayed there both on business and skiing. Again, just loved to travel, all the way-well sometimes, into Utah and Idaho, but mostly in Colorado: Nuclin-Atarita [?], Yervan [?]. Traveled the Dolores River downstream to Gateway and Whitewater. Again, the Junction-at Grand Junction. Again, ALL of the area-and just loved the traveling.
Then, also, during that time I became very close to the neighborhood. I had a lot of young-well, not all of them were young-neighbor just a block away was in retirement and drove for us as we had to move the vehicles around to different service locales.
CN: Tell me again, what year your business was first established-
FM: The point-it first established in 1966. I got my first state dealers license at 13th and Pearl, which later was a 7-Eleven -and later it was shut down because had such a drug problem. But then, I bought this building, the post-office building, in 1969. Refurbished it, moved into it either late ’69 or ’70. I suppose we sold-I hate to say thousands, but certainly hundreds and into the thousands-of, first, funeral coaches and ambulances, and later ambulances, all over the Rocky Mountain area.
15:02 As a matter of fact, we had a slogan: “Ambulance headquarters of the Rocky Mountain West.” And then some export: Saudi Arabia-uh, uh, oh gosh-Saipan. Matter of fact, I went to Saipan to close a deal. Guam. I can’t THINK of all the areas where we exported.
Had a gentleman walk in the door one day-short story-was representing Angola; bought an ambulance-we had it manufactured, and shipped it to Angola. (Laughing.) So, it was-then later, we established an emergency medical-as we showed-oh, that was the other thing: Every year, different fire districts or region had emergency medical services conferences. And we always showed at those conferences. We had often furnished medical supplies that we had to go out individually and purchase. Well, gosh, I can’t think of the year. But we finally opened our own emergency medical services, sales. A former St. Anthony’s flight managed that business in a building across the street, at 47th and Brighton, that my son now owns. Had a quite successful business there.
I had a misfortune, I think 1990, had cancer. Through surgery and treatment got over that. My health insurance just exploded. We were doing pretty good, but not THAT well. I thought I couldn’t -with later that I had-but I thought I couldn’t afford the insurance, and joined the manufacturer we were representing at the time, that was in Florida. They had 300 employees, so they absorbed my-what do you call it?-precondition. They later also bought that emergency medical services-another sad thing I hate to see-but they moved it to Florida.
But anyway, we went on and did quite well. Then-back to the neighborhood-one of our first employees was Billy Smith. He grew up in the neighborhood and was in high school, went to work for us. He later became the superintendent of the new post office-Elyria Post Office-at 49th and Brighton Boulevard. Had a number of different situations like that, where we hired the neighborhood people. And then of course got very close to the National Western.
CN: How many employees did you have?
FM: Oh, the most, I think, counting the salesmen who were out-we had salesmen in Laurel, suburban Billings, Montana. I suppose the maximum was seven. Maybe nine. And then some of them were part time. Some of our drivers were part time. They would go back-well actually, we moved on to some different factories in Florida, and from Bellefontaine to Colombus, Ohio. The Miller-Meteor Company was owned by a German company in 1979, and they closed it. So, sadly, that was all on Cadillac-those were all Cadillac ambulances. That was a sad period. In 1977 they downsized-environmentally influenced-the size of the chassis, and of course upgraded the training. They wanted bigger space inside, and of course heavier capacity, then the ambulances became trucks-they were built on truck chassis. That, again, was kind of a plateau that we hated to reach-(laughing)-it was something DOWN rather than a plateau up.
But in the meantime, again, I got awfully close to the neighbors. We supported the Pilgrim church and their-well, and then Lambert Auto Electric was on the corner of 46th and Brighton, where the interchange is now for I-70. They had a mechanical shop and a parts shop. We did a lot of business with them, just a block away. We did a lot of business at Rickenbaugh Cadillac-at one time we had a $3,000-dollar a month account there, with service in the new and used cars.
20:25 Uh, let’s see. Next plateau: The EMS thing was-Oh! The conferences. Durango had a great conference every year, at-oh, gosh-Tamarron, Tamarron Resort. And that was (laughing) like a vacation. We showed ambulances and sold medical supplies-emergency medical supplies. And then later-we went there twice-later in the year, with the Colorado State Fireman’s Association, and displayed our ambulances and medical supplies. Had market all through that area: Durango, Bayfield, Ignacio, Towaoc. I just think-Hermosa, Hermosa Cliffs, Silverton, Ouray, Telluride. As a matter fact, I stayed in Telluride at the old Sheridan Hotel, I think it was, when it was still the mining situation-I mean, it was not a resort yet.
But back AGAIN to the neighborhood (laughing)-I had worked with City Council to build, supply, facilitate the recreational equipment outside of Swansea Rec Center. That’s where the award came-City Council-that I had there. A couple of the others: I got-my most treasured reward, award-was a plaque from the Elyria Neighborhood Association. Not ironically, a member of which was Bettie Cram, who has been in the neighborhood for more than 60 years. Many of the other people that are, or will, or were in the historical interviews we did recently. But anyway, got awfully close to the neighbors, and watched it-the neighborhood-transition from mostly Eastern Europeans that worked at the stockyards or the various meat processing facilities-Swift, Cudahy-gosh, I can’t remember. There must have been a dozen of them. Watched those fade away. And, oh! Then Ralston Purina, who was a strong member of our business association. And did I say, I was a founding board member and president of the Elyria-Swansea-now Globeville-business association. Which, I ‘m still a member, in retirement. National Western was a very strong member, as I said. Now Nestle-Purina. Mickey Zeppelin, Zeppelin Development. We’ve got like 100 members, and it’s a very strong and beneficial association. We’re very close to the neighborhood associations.
Probably, I don’t know at what point we changed direction here-but the most recent thing is the meetings-oh! Not stretching it at all, over 100 meetings back to pre the I-70 extension from I-25 to Brighton Boulevard. That was in the-the start of it was in the ‘80s. And then planning meetings. So, recently I-70’s new planning development for the either elevated or recessed extension. Or new rebuilding. The RTD station was very much involved in getting the RTD station at the National Western at 48th, 49th and Brighton Boulevard. And, incidentally, that is to start construction next January and be completed by 2016, which will give us a quick, 3-minute connection to downtown Union Station and, I think, act as a catalyst to the development of the neighborhoods, Elyria, Swansea, Globeville.
25:27 Those, right now, are the big pushes. The one negative thing that has hit us recently is the-and I don’t want to say the introduction of medical marijuana, because there’s certainly some aspects to that there are beneficial, but the over, over acceleration of the medical marijuana, and especially in the low-income, minority neighborhoods. As I said, we transitioned from Eastern Europeans that worked mostly in-of course, then, into a more Mexican population. We had been close to the Europeans and got very close-had a number of them work for us, and in our associations, and just loved the inter-culture aspect of it. But, back to the marijuana-we felt that that was a little bit, pushed through a little bit obtrusively. And still, the Denver excise and license abruptly did away with a vending system that was a matter of running all of the new liquor licenses through the neighborhood and business associations, just asking for a comment or a complaint, if they had it. So that it was vetting and recording of those licenses.
Well, without any explanation or authority, the head of excise and license quit that process. Ran through some 200 licenses and apparently zonings-that’s a little complicated. But then, as they transitioned to recreational marijuana, saying that they would only allow medical-“MMDs” they called them, “Medical Marijuana Dispensaries”-to apply for licenses. They-matter of fact, just in the last couple weeks-had a meeting, said: Well, now we’re going to go BACK to this process of going through the neighborhood associations, and we’d like to take it a step forward and ask the associations-or ask you as applicants for the recreational marijuana-to become friends of the neighborhoods and have them, to get their support. So, I thought that was a little bit, what, disingenuous.
But now, that’s where it is. And the next step-now, City Council just recently voted, or established their rules. The state had established their rules, so to speak, and recently said they had control of marijuana from seed to weed-I call it, from seed to plant, to product-and they don’t know how many, how many outlets they have or where they are. It’s just-it was a thing that looked like it was going to develop and be an organized situation, and it’s just exploded into what I think is out of control, I think, personally. And of course there are other people that think the same thing.
One case, when they first, it all first started, people came from other parts of the country. One particular Russian ex-patriot, that was almost fretfully aggressive, offered thousands of dollars. As much as-well, maybe more-but as much as four and five-thousand dollars to sign a lease on the property owners terms. And some people that I was very close to were offered that money; turned it down. Others took the money and signed leases, and then all sorts of things happened from there.
30:07 The largest grow house, at 3500 block, Brighton Boulevard, 48,000 square feet, leased their property for $48,000 dollars a month, I believe it was. Which was UN-real. That was later, a lawsuit evolved-and it’s complicated and detailed-but later was closed and now I think are still under litigation with the city, with THAT.
The other things-Morrison Drugstore, as I mentioned, in ’69 I was with a customer and went into that store, it was CLASSIC. They had a mahogany back bar, a silver-German silver-working counter, and they made sodas, milkshakes, malts, and had all the pharmaceutical products. Unfortunately, Ferd [?] Morrison, whose father started it-matter of fact, they had an apartment upstairs, beautiful apartment upstairs with a balcony that looked over the mountains. But unfortunately, Ferd was in the navy, got out of the navy, had the same opportunity to go to school on the GI Bill, get his pharmaceutical degree, and didn’t. So, he had to hire a pharmacist-but did that for years. And, back to the counter, had a marble countertop where he used to sit for coffee break in the morning, or take customers over for a nickel cup of coffee. And of course sodas, and malts and milkshakes.
I can’t remember what year, but Ferd’s health started to fail. And he sold the drug business, and later the building, to-I can’t, well, the first people that rented it were some Italian families in North Washington, and it did fairly well but finally faded away. And, oh, they had glass counters where they had the candy that they weighed out by the pound. As a matter of fact, I have their weighted scale, yet, from the candy sales part of it, and some of the artifacts from the basement that Ferd, as he was leaving, had me go in and pick up.
Anyway, NOW that-just in the last few months-has become a medical marijuana facility, with some suspicious vents in the roof. Well, it’s not in transition because it’s opened as medical, and they’re pretty sure to be getting recreational. We have nine marijuana facilities within walking distance of the corner of 47th Avenue and Brighton Boulevard. Some have closed-48th and Brighton was owned by Brannan Sand and Gravel. Well, I don’t want to assume that they took the cash when they sold that. But they sold that, and it became an outlet. Our favorite restaurant that had been in the grey building where RMS [?] business was, started in that-oh, gosh, how many, in the ‘50s or ‘60s I guess-and later moved across, built a building across the street at 1650 East 47th Avenue, and that now is a brownie-marijuana bake shop, and unknown to most of the neighbors. Unknown that it’s even there, as is true of so many. Another one adjacent-almost attached to the Forney Transportation Museum-that’s very active selling marijuana. And daily, school buses of kids unload almost next to it, to take tours of the Forney Museum.
I could describe many others: Race Street, another at Race Street. But it just seems that-not that it wouldn’t be invasive, but that it’s just OVERLY invasive. Just swamped with this. And I personally am-I don’t say resisting it, I don’t know how you resist it. The Council wants the money; the state wants the money. Excise and License have been almost, oh-what’s the word I have-almost-I can’t say corrupt. I can’t think of the word.
35:04 But it’s with their approach to it, or expansion of it. And they’re talking about it not being 1,000 feet from schools; and the National Western’s trying to develop a partnership with Colorado State University, which they-State University themselves-promoted at a meeting recently at the National Western, in joining and opening an equestrian school, both in the hall of-pardon me, the Event Center, where the group of eight-John Elway retirement-I can’t think how many notable groups have met-matter of fact, President Clinton was there, Gorbachev.
But anyway, about to be a school-equestrian school-both for breeding horses and eventually cattle. And a laboratory. And it’s less than 8,000 feet from this marijuana outlet, and I would think would discourage-anyway, that’s a terrible conflict that’s not really being addressed.
CN: What do you think are some consistent positives in this neighborhood?
(Silence.)
FM: That’s too much pause! (Laughing.) I’d say RTD, right now. RTD, there will be a pick in the ground very shortly, after the first of the year. And a potential TOD-Transportation Oriented Development, which is kind of a canned planner’s terminology, as there are many. But the TOD could potentially bring stores, maybe even apartments. Oh! And incidentally, incidentally-apartments. Through all of this situation, of transition, we and a number of our neighbors offered low-income rentals, without subsidy, to low-income families, obviously. I had one family for 18 years in one house. And other neighbors and friends that rented-no subsidy. And NOW, we’ve got Section 8. And I don’t know whether to bring this personally into it-well, I won’t bring the individual-but an individual that we all know that just recently-they live in a nice, well-cared for-which a lot of the houses in the neighborhood are-that’s a whole ‘nother issue-an adjacent house that she rented, which was a very practical thing to do, and help the neighborhood grow. And not only grow, and not only prosper, but to improve, not only environmentally but appearance-wise. But one of her renters got of control and weren’t paying the rent-had some problems. They literally took them to Commerce City to find Section 8 rental property. They wound up paying $650-she was charging $400-dollar-THEY were charging $400 dollars to rent this house. Took them to Commerce City, they got a Section 8 house that had active cockroaches in it. Paid $650 dollars for it. And the-I’ll have to call it, uh, uh (thinking) landlord, uh-doggone it, there’s an unfavorably term for that, and I can’t think of it.
CN: Slumlord?
FM: Slumlord! Slumlord, that’s it! Yeah. And then, a subsidy FROM the government, to DO that renting. And now they’re paying-and getting subsidy for their rent-paying more than they paid. So, the-and again, the mayor finally backed off of that. And, heaven’s forbid-we want to get the people out of homelessness and-especially veterans, and there are so MANY. Again, all of these people that I know, that turned down this big cash from the-and I’m talking about: They were coming out of the wall, with rolls of cash at $4,000 dollars, just to-not FOR rent, but to sign a lease for rent on the lessor’s terms, with a deposit and first month’s rent. A security deposit, first month’s rent.
40:09 Again, I said: Some of them took it, and others just absolutely turned it down. But they were just rampant. They were like-
CN: So, you’re saying that potential dwellings, where people might live, are being leased for-
FM: No, not actually live. They were more businesses, for such, as storefronts or, well, then-of course that’s since not, maybe, involved Morrison Drug. But that kind of-matter of fact, what used to be Cindy Lynn’s restaurant-I don’t know that any money, any cash exchanged there, but that must not have been a very good deal, because that since has gone into foreclosure. So it’s just been a helter skelter. And I said, 48th and Brighton closed and involved indictments and prison. They almost immediately shipped marijuana out of state.
Then the Feds-I remember a Saturday morning, I got phone calls saying: I got a guy here with $4,000 dollars in his pocket that wants me to rent this space. And I said: Gosh, you got to make your own decision; but it doesn’t sound right to me. And they turned it down. And then that Saturday-that particular Saturday-in the Post appeared an article that the Feds were making a statement that if you rented a section of a building to a marijuana-federally illegal marijuana facility-you could potentially have your building declared a nuisance and shut down. Meaning, you lost all your other tenants and couldn’t make your payments and would lose the building.
So anyway, most of the people didn’t-shouldn’t say “most.” People I know, not one that were a business member; not one that was a neighborhood association member, took that money. But others DID. And the one that took the money, then the Feds backed OFF of that and said, “No, we’re not going to do anything right now.” And now they’re back into the SAME thing with the moving into the recreational. And the Feds are saying: We could close you down. Oh, and if you don’t comply with these particular, uh, uh, situations-such as export, non-license-uh, uh, darn it, I can’t think of them; there are, like, six stipulations-we could close you down. But then now, they’re not doing it.
We’re shipping out tons-we’re shipping marijuana out of state by the ton. Medical marijuana is getting into the hands of other non-medical people. And again, maybe they’ll eventually get that under control, but it’s certainly out of control now. And that’s kind of where we are today.
Yep. And I get a little excited about that! (Laughter.)
And I’m not a prohibitionist or a prude. But I AM a pragmatist and think that our politicians and our bureaucrats have let it get out of hand.
CN: Right. Well, and you’re focusing on a particular situation in this neighborhood that you think is out of control.
FM: Oh, not just this neighborhood. Although, I think 8-0-2-1-6 [referring to zip code] is the most concentrated. But to have NINE either outlets or manufacturing facilities within walking distance-which is just blocks-is unreasonably oversaturated. And the fact that it’s in low-income, minority neighborhoods. I think Cherry Creek has a few, but not proportionately anything like the number in Elyria, Swansea, Globeville. Some of the other neighborhoods that you and I talked about. So I just think it’s headed in a bad direction.
CN: Uh-huh. Yeah. You had mentioned, earlier, the highways. What are your thoughts about the potential redevelopment of I-70, now-or the different scenarios.
FM: Well, I thought that we had-that they were going to rebuild the elevated, and was in favor of that. My main point was, is: Do it the best you can for the least amount of money. And, in some cases, at meetings-we discussed this with other neighbors and businesses-that they didn’t seem to pay attention to the amount of money that was being spent.
45:03 They are now talking about the recess, and the recess-I don’t want to quote these figures, because I can’t get them exactly right-but it’s like $4-million dollars more to build that recess than to build an elevated. Or to, as they say-they have these categories-one of them is to do nothing; and it really isn’t NOT to do anything, it’s to do less and to improve the old highway and add a lane. And that’s the least expensive. And of course, there’s pros and cons all the way through that scenario. But, it looks like they’re going to do the recess. And, with the marijuana thing coming into the picture, and meeting after meeting after meeting-and I now live in Arvada, and it’s 26-mile round trip, and driving at night, and I’m just getting weary of it. (Laughs.) And go for, now, 60 years in that business. My wife probably is ready to kill me (laughing) for getting so involved. But I think I’m backing out and letting up a little bit.
CN: You did used to live in the neighborhood?
FM: No, no. Ironically though, we considered two places in the neighborhood-and I can’t think of the name of it, over here. It’s now a tile-quite a large tile facility on Race Street. That was for sale, once, and we strongly considered that. And then, at one time, we considered the apartment above Morrison Drug, where Morrison’s dad-when Ferd was just a kid, so that had to be, gosh, in the ‘20s or ‘30s-built this beautiful apartment upstairs, with a sun roof. There weren’t that many sun roofs, in those days. And this balcony that’s still there, that faces the mountains. Just, really, a neat place. And it became rentable-and I can’t remember exactly why. I think my wife thought it was too close to work. It would have been right across the street.
But I never actually lived in the neighborhood, but was so close to the residents, and the members of the church-Pilgrim Church-and the people that worked for us, and just NEIGHBORS. I bought a section of lots, north of us at one time, and didn’t realize how bad it was. People had been throwing tires over the fence, and residue from thefts over the fence for years. I was renting it as a-kind of a salvage yard. But anyway, had to bring it up to code. And in-now I forget where I’m going with that. In doing that, uh-
CN: Well, I was just trying to figure out why it is that you never lived in the neighborhood, BEING so involved.
FM: Yeah, right. But honestly I DO think-and we probably discussed it at the time-but I think my wife thought I was going to be too close to work. And I was commuting 13, 26 miles a day round trip. We lived in Golden, then. Let’s see. First-oh no, when we were first married we lived downtown, 12th and Clarkson. And when I bought the building, we lived at 12th and Clarkson, because we bought our home in Golden about the same time they were-matter of fact, that got to be a bit of a strain. We were paying on the building and paying on the house at the same time, I can remember that. And I was working 70 hours a week, and traveling-going back to the factory sometimes myself to bring the cars out. And we often did that, too. When we had a new car deliver, say, to Durango, we’d stop at different towns on the way and show it.
And of course, I went back to visit my home town, class reunions and that sort of thing, and then brought ambulances. And my friends-as a matter of fact, one short time I took a-maybe an over statement to call it “sabbatical,” but I took a period of time off and managed and helped develop a ski area in Ohio. A lot of the kids that worked for me-ski patrol and operators-worked for me at that ski area, when I came out here used to bring cars out. And they were ecstatic, because they brought the car out, and skied, and then I flew them back. So they were standing in line to do that.
50:09 But then, at that time, I lived at 12th and Clarkson-my wife and I. My NEW wife and I lived at 12th and Clarkson. And then we bought the house we bought in Golden. But that’s a good point. I think the proximity, probably, was the thing that kept us from living there. Yeah, yeah.
But again, the neighborhood: I loved it, walked it. Ciancio’s Liquor-I think just recently changed hands. Mrs. Ciancio did our notary for our titles for 25 cents apiece. So we could walk down, with a title, and have her notarize it for a quarter. And it was right in the neighborhood. Again, I talked about Billy Smith, who-I don’t know whether you’ve talked to Betty Wonder or not; her son-in-law, I believe he is-became superintendent of the Elyria Post Office. I don’t know, it was just a close-knit thing. And again, that church was so special. And Lambert’s-uh, uh, zilch [?]-darn, I can’t think of it. A lady-lovely lady-that lived at the end of the ramp, exit ramp westbound off of I-70 to Brighton Boulevard. Lilian! Lilian Victor, from birth, lived in that house. Eventually Lambert sold to the state, and Lilian sold to the state as they developed the ramp and the expansion of, widening of Brighton Boulevard.
And also, we mentioned early, what’s going on in the neighborhood-they pretty well have done the engineering work on the improvement of Brighton Boulevard, from 29th to Race Street, of course to the RTD station, and as a connector between DIA off of I-70 onto Brighton Boulevard downtown as the main corridor, DIA to downtown. And that’s a big, POSITIVE thing going on right now. That I would say-I-70, that, and the rail station, RTD station, are the three. And then, the mayor’s-uh, uh, gee, this is terrible. It’s three letters: Denver (pause) North (pause) Cornerstone Collaborative is a study of the neighborhood and a plan for improvement of the neighborhoods, with the corridor Brighton-pardon me, DIA, Brighton Boulevard, Union Station-or downtown, pardon me-being THE big push. And we’re meeting-well, actually, skipping some meetings these days-but, actually, weekly-some of these people are meeting weekly; they’re on half-a-dozen committees.
I feel remiss in complaining about the meetings, because Mrs. Cramm, who’s 92 years old, is not on the National Western Committee but attending all these other committees-including the I-70 committee, meetings. So I feel reluctant. That’s the other thing, I feel-I’ve said often-at the business meeting you have to introduce yourself each time. Says: You’ve been on the corner of Brighton Boulevard and 47th for 40, more than 40 years. And I’ve got Joe Huff sitting across of me, whose Colorado Serum Company has been here off of Race [Street] for over 100 years. So, some of the old and some of the new are just meld together. When I see Louis Thomas, who’s the general manager of uh, uh, uh, Nestle Purina, and Joe Huff whose family owns Colorado Serum, 100 years old-and all of us together, we have the best of both worlds for 100 years. And that goes for the buildings, and the people, and everything about the neighborhood. And it’s so closely come together-ethnically, and business-wise, and-rather than ethnically it’s culturally, I guess, but culturally.
And this very library-(laughing)-ironically, was setting NEXT to a Section 8 group of homes that have been up and down in condition. I won’t go into that, but that’s been kind of a thorn. But I think they’re a little better right now; but it’s vacillated-vacillated vastly-over the years.
55:22 So, we always have been in transition. But, I think, a little more accelerated right now than ever before. And, I think the first actual facility will be the rail station. And I think it will be done long before-now, with the floods, no one’s said this-and I don’t want to preempt it-if this will NOT slow down the I-70 project. Because this morning, in the paper, it says the governor has released another $56-million dollars, after $20-million dollars, for the flood effort, and talking about calling a special session of the legislator. So, I can see that being-
But, I cannot believe that the RTD will not be completed in 2016 with the rail station at National Western. We’re still not sure about how, and what’s going to develop about National Western.
CN: I wanted to ask you about that, what your-
FM: It seems to be progressing. And this committee that I just mentioned, that Mrs. Wonder was going to be a part of, and Pat Grant, who was always the CEO there-not always, but most of the time WE were associated with them-and Marvin Witt, who’s just retired. Now Paul Andrews is the new CEO, but quite a large board. And they’re trying to work this out. Money is a problem-money’s always a problem. We’ve got a potential for three, four, five bond issues now. Some of them for near a billion dollars.
We’ve got-it’s another thing with marijuana-they used the first $40-million dollars of the Proposition AA tax income to go directly to building schools, construction of schools. Now there’s factions of the marijuana promoters that are, well, having free smokeouts in Denver and Boulder, that are fighting that AA proposition. And that would take the tax away, which I think would be a renege, reneging on the building of the schools. I don’t-it’s so complicated. And the other thing is: You can’t find out. You can’t pick up the phone and call-uh, uh, uh-Tom Dewey at Excise and License [and] say: “Tom, what’s happening to this phase,” or whatever.
First you get a recording, and then you get a chance to speak-at a meeting-to speak for 2 minutes to make your point. And your answer to your question you make at the point is “Next.” And the next person walks up and goes through the same scenario. So, it’s by no means pretty. (Laughs.)
But, I love the neighborhood still. I still come here often. Mickey Zeppelin has a wonderful place down here-not only food but food PRODUCTS. What do I say: upgrade meats, vegetables, butchers, coffees, wines. I don’t know what all. And we have a number of-I shouldn’t say “a number,” but a couple breweries and a winery, potentially, developing in the neighborhood. So a lot of it is good. And I guess you can’t-you can’t get through a war without a battle. So, I guess that’s part of it. Other than we have this thing injected in the middle of it, that’s out of control. And that’s the marijuana. Yeah.
So, that’s where we are, I guess.
CN: Um, we’ve pretty much gone through a lot of what I would consider to be the central issues. What-forecast for me, maybe 50 years down the road. What do you think this neighborhood will be like.
FM: Oh, 50.
CN: Or pick a number that-
FM: (Laughing.)
CN: Pick a number that you feel comfortable with!
FM: I have a favorite statement at meetings, when it comes up. I say: I can’t wait until, say-the rail station is not a good example, because it’s going to happen-but say the highway, say: Oh gosh, then we’re going to see that completed in 2020. And I say, Now I’ll be 103. So I’ll be able to enjoy that.
1:00:01 Fifty years, I would really-we’d probably go through all these transitions again, literally. The highway, all of it. Maybe even the RTD. But 50 years-
CN: That’s about as long as you’ve been in operation here.
FM: Yeah, you’re right-and how long the highway’s been here. So that-maybe you’re right! Gosh. Matter of fact, first thing that goes through my mind is [corrects himself] are the suspended cars, to the mountains and through the town. I can see that, in 50 years. And, environmentally things are going to change, going to have to change. Water-wise, we sure don’t have that under control. Even-one thing now, in addition to some of the other barriers, the properties-if you have some property that you could develop-and they say that we’re going to build a hotel there, or motel-you’ve got to take like 20 percent of it for remediation. Like, drainage ponds and runoff. We pay a progressing tax, now, on runoff. It’s called impervious-uh, uh, uh-water-impervious tax, for your roof, your driveways, anything that the water can’t run through, you pay a tax on that. So I could see-
And then-gosh, I’m-of course, everybody is taxed, well you know what, “It’s a terrible thing.” But it’s not, because we don’t have the tax! We can’t have our-uh, uh, (thinking) not superstructure, what’s the word I want?
CN: Infrastructure.
FM: Infrastructure! Infrastructure. So, that’s-again, I think sometimes it gets a little out of control. I would imagine that there’s going to have to be a tax aspect connected to the National Western. Well, they do what they do.
But, 50 years. Gosh, I wouldn’t be surprised if the National Western or some-especially if Colorado State University gets involved with them-I can see that still being in effect. And heaven forbid, let’s don’t forget agriculture, because that’s what brought-well, the railroads brought the city here. But agriculture was a good bit of the railroads, because they were shipping cattle, and grain, and agriculture products by the railroads. And on the other hand, the railroads are in a way a barrier, because it’s been a difficult thing for the highways to get built around them. Because the railroads decide (thumping hand on table) who’s going to do what, where, and when. And if they don’t want to give up space, they don’t give up space.
Most of the space that they got-won’t say free, but mostly free, because they had to develop it, so it wasn’t really free. And then of course, THEY helped develop the country, just like I-70 did. And Eisenhower said I-70 will be not only a commerce improvement, but a security-a national security factor, because we can ship across the country quickly. But then again, if we start even talking about tubes going thousands of miles an hour and getting across country in two hours. So that’s going to be a factor.
I can’t-let’s just say that, I remember as a kid, tearing up the trolley tracks in the street. Crosses my mind, we haven’t put the tracks down yet for RTD. (Laughing.) Imagine them taking up those tracks! Of course, I’ll be long gone before that. My grandkids, maybe.
Agriculture, the mountains, are going to always bring people to Colorado. Of course, there’s another little thing there too: Just in the last week, Aspen, Winter-not Winter Park, but Grand County-Summit County, or aspects of Summit County, have all voted to if not delay but to move into recreational marijuana. And so that’s going to be another thing that’s going to happen. By that time, I don’t know. It probably will be-again, I have such a tough time with that, because I have a sister that’s just 90 and has terminal cancer and is having a terrible time with Chemo. And I wish I could get her to maybe get into medical marijuana. And they use that as a selling feature, to get to recreational. And maybe recreational’s okay too, but to get it under control, and not what they call control now.
But then, 50 years, I suppose-I suppose everybody will be so healthy that they won’t need it! (Laughing.) So healthy, and happy! So healthy and happy that it will all be Boulder-without the floods-will all be Boulder without the floods (laughing). And the mountains and the streams and the bike paths and the flowers. And everything will be wonderful. (Laughing.) And old guys like myself won’t be saying (thumping hand on table): Well, they should have done this.
1:05:24 But I bet they also could say “I told you so.” Except we won’t be around to say “I told you so.” If they don’t build that elevated [referring to highway], which seems improbable now, Bettie Cram can certainly say-Mrs. Cramm can certainly say, “I told you so.” So, I guess we’ll just see. But, go along and try to do the best we can; and join the neighbors and the businesses and take advantage of this-you’ll literally be able to get onto that train and be at Union Station in three minutes. No other stop, zip zip. And I can’t remember just what the speeds are, but it’s only two-and-a -half miles.
And then on to as far as one hundred and-I can’t remember what, but beyond 72nd, the next stop-not the next stop, but the next, between National Western and 72nd is the next segment. So that should be, I would say, not too many year’s until that’s finished. And then maybe it could be as many as 30 years before they get the whole thing done. But that-so, there’s 30 of the 50 right there! (Laughing.) So, you have a better grasp of that than I do. Hell, I have more of it to look forward to, yeah.
So, I think we’ll probably be, long-term, be on the right track. Of course, for my age, I wasn’t-my wife and I weren’t until I was-she’s much younger than I am-but until I was in my forties, early forties. And our grandkids are the ages of our contemporaries’ great-grandkids. So, being just in the kindergarten and the first grade, I think about that more than anything else, is what their future’s going to be. I watch some of these kids grow up in the neighborhood, and somebody will say: “I’m-Mr. McPeck, I’m Johnny-so-and-so.” And I think, WHAT?? I can’t believe that.
Well, we have two guys-two kids in this neighborhood-their dad and I were pretty close. [Thumps hand on table.] Darn it. Now I can’t think of their name. Uh, uh-darn it. Cipriano! Anyway, two boys. I think they’re both Denver policemen. And, another neighbor over here-one of the boys turned out to be a great citizen; the other one is off in, in prison. So, it’s good and bad, all the way through. And I think we’ll see the same thing going forward. And hopefully mostly toward the positive, as we get to that 50 years. Yeah.
CN: Well, that’s perfect. Can you think of anything else that you wanted to talk about that I haven’t brought up?
FM: That’s about it. I, again, get-especially with a little bit of dementia-I get on this thing. Because, when I think about I-70 coming across, I can think about all that building I-70, they had sections that you would drive 70 miles an hour and come to a sign that said “Slow next 20 miles.” And a particular place in Indiana, right on about the Indiana-Illinois line, that was like that for 12, 15 years. And then the same thing on through the mountains.
Then, of course, Glenwood Canyon. We watched them divert the Colorado River, just little by little. Each trip was a different trip, because they _____ [?] went a different way. And that was exciting. And then, jump to that, I think about my first trip driving to Colorado, which had to be about ’51, was through Clear Creek Canyon. And I was overwhelmed. I drove on the highway, the wall [water?] was running down here, the cliffs were hundreds of feet up the side, and I was just overwhelmed. I got off as many times as I could and just stood there and stared.
And then on to the other canyons. And then as we have these floods now, and they say, well, this is epic-well, if that’s epic-my wife says: I know why I feel so old, because I’ve been through three 100-year floods. (Laughing.) And that’s a pretty good way to put it. Because, when you drive through those canyons and think what formed those canyons, over eons, what have we got to look forward to in the future, when this is a pretty bad situation.
1:10:11 I was through-not through, but I had a customer that was literally in the Big Thompson flood, take-driving the ambulance up the canyon when the water was coming down. Got out through the window, and his crew member, and the ambulance was washed away to the plains and was in a ball you could put your arms around, when they found it out on the Platte Valley.
So, that’s three just-and ’65. Sixty-five, my wife moved out here from Michigan and was teaching at-darn it, I can’t say that, near Downing. Matter of fact, one of her co-teachers was the Rossonian’s owners-
CN: Oh, the high school there? Manual?
FM: Manual! Manual. Taught at Manual, first grade. Uh, uh, uh-where was I going with that? Uh. Doggone it.
CN: The starting point was the flood of-
FM: Oh yeah, yeah. She had two, three roommates that-they lived in a house together, and those three roommates went back to Michigan for the summer. Stored all their things in a storage facility in downtown Denver, and every bit of it was lost. So everything they had, was lost. Everything they didn’t take with their suitcase, back for the summer, was lost. So, ’65, that was bad. Thompson Valley was bad. And, of course, we had all these programs to-the Cherry Creek Dam, the reservoirs from the Big Thompson. That whole Big Thompson, north, drainage system, to help mitigate that. So it’s there, but it’s just another stage. So here we are to THIS stage, this month, and to see it wash away the way it did.
And literally, 20 miles of the California Zephyr line in the-uh, uh, (thumps hand on table) tunnel (searching for correct name).
CN: The Eisenhower?
FM: No, no, no (chuckling). No, the RAIL tunnel, through-oh my gosh. (Struggling to remember the name.) I had ballots from the vote for that tunnel. It was quite a project, 1.7 miles that goes to Winter Park.
CN: Ohhhhhh, um.
FM: I cannot believe.
CN: I haven’t ridden that part of the train.
FM: Oh gosh. Well it goes almost to Boulder, and then on to-on to, uh, well that’s like not being able to think of Golden or Boulder. But anyway. Twenty miles of that line have washed out, some of it into 10 and 70 deep, foot deep canyons. Now they’ve got-they’re in the process now, they’re busing passengers from Chicago-coming by train from Chicago to Denver-busing them to Grand Junction, 250 miles almost, and have got to rebuild that whole 20 miles. Some of it washed out into canyons.
CN: Mm-hm. Moffat! (Remembering the tunnel name.)
FM: Moffat! (Laughter.) Gosh, yeah. Moffat Tunnel. And there’s another thing: As our son was growing up, I used to take him on that train. No, first-back to the ‘50s-I would come out, I think I drove out-but I have taken the train out from Chicago-but I drove out to ski, stayed at the Oxford Hotel, got up in the morning on a Saturday morning, and walked to Union Station to go on the ski train. And here I am-guess I must have been in my early twenties-and, had learned to ski Michigan, but not-hadn’t advanced that much. Walked into Union Station, and heard this roar, that I had no idea what it was, and was just dumbfounded. I had my gear with me; walked to where I had to ask, and walked to where I had to go. Saw this ramp, going down to the loading dock, and it was HUNDREDS of skiers packed shoulder to shoulder, talking and yelling and screaming and their skis banging together. Getting ready to get on that train. And again, I was stopped. I just couldn’t get over it.
1:15:12 And then stayed at this lovely-and then I probably, probably it was $10, $12 dollars a night to stay at the Oxford-and to get on that train, go up and ski, get back on the train and come back. So, a Midwesterner, though I’d died and gone to heaven! (Laughing.) And then did that a number of times.
I can’t say how many years later, not-but years later, I took my son to that same ramp, get on the same train-literally, the same cars, with like the felt seats? Got on that train with my son, who maybe then was 10, and went to Winter Park through the Moffat Tunnel. So that was-again, those episodes: going through the canyons; of course, skiing the mountains. I’ve just-I can’t think of an area in-I’ve skied Winter Park when there was nothing but T-bars [reference to the ski lift]. And, and, as I said, Berthoud. And, oh! Steamboat. I didn’t actually ski Howelsen Hill, but Howelsen Hill was there then. Sold a number of ambulances to Steamboat. Uh, Clark-well, sold ambulances at Clark. It’s a tiny town, [changes?] names about every 20 years.
But. And then, often, I had situations-Cuchara, ski area, the town-I can’t think of the town, now, but it’s just below, oh gosh, the pass between Walsenburg and Alamosa. Anyway, that town and Cuchara ski area were one. And I delivered them a new ambulance; we had the ambulance delivered, then they gave me-comped me on the hill at Cuchara. I had a number of cases like that, where I got to ski-well, Crested Butte! I delivered an ambulance to Crested Butte and was comped onto the hill. And a few times-Oh! I had a gold pass for years. I can’t remember what was it, but businesses could buy this pass, and you would give it to customers. It was like a gold medal. And you could give it to the customer, and they could go ski on that. I had THAT for years.
(Chuckling.) When I was working for the company-this was a little bit tedious, but-working and skiing. And I did that in New England, too, before I came out here. But, we had an ambulance configuration that went into the trucks with the backboard compartments. They were narrow and tall. And I could put my skis in that compartment (laughing) and not be quite so obtrusive as carrying them on the roof of a car. Uh, uh, would carry my skis and have opportunities. At Vail, the fire chief at Vail, Mike-I just can’t remember his last name-and Vail, then it turned out to be East Eagle County, I think. The hospital, they had a hospital. Gosh, I must have sold them more than half-a-dozen ambulances. Matter of fact, went there in the summer when Gerald Ford was there, and was introduced to Gerald Ford. They’d bring the rescue down in the woods, surreptitiously, and park it when Ford came, landed, to come to Vail.
We watched Ford play tennis. And once, he walked off the court and stopped and talked to my wife! (Chuckling.) So, it was just like-I don’t know, one big event. And it was like that across the country.
And then back to Elyria, Elyria was always home base. I had a time-our original address was 1770 and East 47th Avenue. And I’d be off some place, in a town, and [they’d] say “Gosh where is that?” Saying: Gosh, I don’t know. It’s close to I-70. Never could explain it. Then, dumb me, it finally dawned on me: First of all, we had the neatest mailman, Bob Feeko [sp?]. I said, “Bob, what do you have to do to change your address?” He says, “Well, you’ve got to fill out a bunch of forms. I have to participate in it; and the superintendent has to participate in it.” You go through all this, and it’s quite complicated. Then one day he came by and said: “Fred, you know what? Why don’t you just change your sign. I know where you are, my son knows where you are. Change your sign.” I said, Oh my gosh. So I changed the address to 4700 Brighton Boulevard; changed our stationary to 4700 Brighton Boulevard; and then put a footnote at the bottom: “Adjacent to National Western Stock Show.”
1:20:25 I could be in Blackfoot, Idaho, or, or, the farthest point in the-and sometimes we-Colorado, Wyoming, and Montana was our territory, but sometimes we went to Idaho. Matter of fact, we just-as I retired-sold three ambulances to Summit County, Utah. Oh, that other ski area-Stein Eriksen, Redford-Robert Redford-gosh, I can’t think of the town.
CN: Oh, in Park City?
FM: Park City! Yeah, Park City is the county seat [?]. But, I would say “adjacent to National Western,” “Sure, I know right where it is. You’re on that corner right there, going to-“ “Yeah, yeah, yeah.” So-and often we had customers FLY in. We’d pick them up at the airport and, and-or, however they came in, car, whatever. Or we’d take them to the airport, then they’d fly back to the factory and pick up their ambulance and drive it out. So that worked out perfectly, too, because it was close to the airport.
I can remember-again, before I had the dealership, when I was working with the factory-sitting on a park bench at Stapleton Airport, outside, waiting for them to push up the steps to a DC-3, get on the plane, to fly back to, say, Dayton, Ohio; or on to wherever I was going. Or to do the jumpers to Durango or wherever it was. And then-back to the railroads again-I would deliver, often, to Rifle or the towns around Rifle. Deliver an ambulance. And they, the next morning I’d stay maybe-they’d take me to Glenwood, I’d stay at the Denver Hotel, and get on the train the next morning and come back to Denver. And then one of our guys would pick me up at the Union Station. So I was just ALL tied together, and all wonderful. Yep, yep.
I get a little emotional about it, as a matter of fact. I kind of daydream about it, and think about things I might have done better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But here we are. And I’m alive! (Laughing) So I guess that’s something. (Laughing.) And able to complain. So, yeah. And I shouldn’t say just complain, be able to offer [?] and complain maybe. Yeah, yeah.
And would probably get involved even more, yet. I had an opportunity to get on an advisory committee for the RTD, for the station-or for the TOD, actually-but I don’t like to drive at night anymore, and I get overly involved. So I’m not going to do that. But, that’s kind of where we are.
CN: Well that’s great. I think I’ll-
FM: Oh, that was-Oh my gosh, that was way more than an hour!
CN: (Laughing.) No, just barely. So, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
FM: Yes, Cyns. Right. I kind of got carried away there, but that’s, I guess, what you try to do.
CN: That’s it.
FM: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:23:47 [End of Audio. End of interview.]