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I've tried testing the efficiency of how much a person can do in this zombie mode thingy. I've set /ia 1, added me a flamethrower, but after 3 matches i've switched to bazooka because it was more fun, added myself a magnum and sometimes uzi for target practice, a katana that works well with range and damage, and mines/grenades. i used the bazooka more because i found out there are some fire zombies that can kill you in 2 seconds, and are immune to fire.

After several times i've played the mode alone, i started a more resourceful play. First 18 matches seemed to go pretty smoothly where i was able to only use the uzi and katana for the majority of time, but only at wave 20 i found myself the need to use grenades and sometimes mines. remember this is all in /ia 1.
Somewhere between 20 and 25 there is a match with an awful lot amount of zombies, and that's where i managed to die two times, because of lack of space to use explosives, and the other time i was disarmed by a small zombie that i didnt see when he approached. multiple others joined and i was unable to retrieve my bazooka, panicking and losing my hp carelessly. At wave 27 i was killed by a fire zombie.

Fire zombies are more dangerous than anything else, because they deal damage upon contact, and make you lose important ammounts of hp almost instantly. A headshot can kill them but at a higher level i think requires 2 pistol hits. Do NOT think you can kill one before it kills you when engaging in close combat. Make sure you shoot them immediately when you spot them.

With all of this equipment and /ia 1 activated, i believe that it is still impossible to survive alone past wave 30. there are simply too many zombies and not enough space to escape, as more and more come near you, you wont be able to use explosives either, otherwise you'll be killing yourself. maybe if you'd have very experienced teamates that won't stumble in eachother's grenades and bullets, maybe you'd be able to surpass wave 30 and maybe reach 40 or 45. i wonder how wave 50 looks like or, maybe, what does wave 100 have in stock... jeez.. you'll need a superman...

So yeah, most efficient weapons against zombies:

Explosives. preferably mines, c4 and bazooka, because with a mine or a c4, you're able to escape it's explosion radius thanks to the timer or trigger, and with bazooka, you can send off a zombie into others without hurting yourself with the explosion.

Fire. use a lot of it for usual zombies, Big ones in particular are very affected by it. they're slow, and fire deals a large ammount of damage, killing them very fast. useless against fire zombies though.

a Bullet spraying gun. ocassionaly when you don't have neither of the ones above.

Anything else needs to be used with extra precaution and care, being careful not to waste any shot.

One of our smoother updates if we exclude the problem with servers being overloaded shortly after updates.
We have discovered a few problems ourselves but nothing game breaking.

During the initial design of the survival map we designed it for 1 to 2 players. This is the first time we could try it out with 3 or 4 players and overall I think we find it too easy This is something we expected and we will from here keep working with tools to be able to scale the difficulty based on number of players.

Have you played the survival map yet? Was it too easy? Too difficult? Did it take too long before you died? If it was boring, why? If it was fun, why? Being able to retry a wave a good thing? What's your thoughts?

Have you played the survival map yet? Was it too easy? Too difficult? Did it take too long before you died? If it was boring, why? If it was fun, why? Being able to retry a wave a good thing? What's your thoughts?

The Survival Map is Jaw-dropping , but from the view of a single player , i believe you made the zombies too strong , i was barely able to reach wave 10 (The retry count is fair though) , but i died so much from the normal zombies being able to melee me so accurately , i mean i swear a zombie kicked me from a cliff then jumped and freakin RKO'ed me to the ground , i believe zombies should be stupid and aggresive creatures , not Kung-Fu masters .

and by the way , Splinter , Congratz ! , Your music is absolutly FANTASTIC ! my favorite one so far is ZombieNightmare , Keep up the amazing work , can't wait to hear more of your Epic Music

I just Reviewed the new triggers , and they are extremely helpful , especially The CheckAlive Triggers , but i would like to suggest a small addition to the GameOverTrigger , which is the option to choose what the GameOver Message will be ?

Last edited by Armadyl5 on Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

To add to what i said about my survival map experience, i think that the 3 retries are very good. We would sometimes die because of absurd reasons, and it was comforting to know that we had 2 more chances... sometimes we couldn't work well with a wave, and after we died, we could work another strategy.

The thing that i like the most about this is that we don't lose our weapons if we lose a wave. We restart the wave having the same guns and ammo as we had previously, and i think that's brilliant. I also like that some zombies come equipped with weapons that we can use... i wonder if they will eventually fire them at us, that'd be cool, but not neccesary. I think it would be harder then. Maybe make it that some bosses can shoot? I don't know, let's see what others have to say...

I like that now the cpu player knows to fight a bit better, and now uses kicks and climbs up the ladder and ledges. The mode is fun because of their improved activity and movement. But sometimes zombies just stop and sit in one place without doing anything and i feel that it kills the pace of the survival mode. They need to be more intuitive. But they've improved nonetheless

Last edited by ill on Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.

I've played only 2 times the Survival mode, but because I had to go. I would play it endlessly if I had the chance. It has very long duration and I didn't even see the time passing.
I analyzed and realized many things while passing through rounds, here's my tips:

• Every round the map is cleared, what means propane tanks, barrels, falling lamps and obstacles will spawn again. You should know how and when to use them well, manipulate the zombies movements and wait to accumulate in the places you want to then get all of them.
• Every round, a +50 and +25 will spawn in the map. It's convenient to plan who'll be the ones to use them (the ones with less HP) and only use them in the end of the rounds if it's possible, so you'll start the next with good HP.
• Avoid diving and grabbing. Chances are high of you being countered and then cornered because of this.
• If the zombies are getting closer, sheathe your weapons as fast as you can. Don't do a falling punch or jumping kick too, they are a huge delay.
• Kick them out when they are climbing, they can't do much (unless they are a lot).
• It's not impossible to run away from being attacked by a lot of zombies (unless you are on fire). If you're lucky or have an abnormal reflex (slomo can be useful too) you can defend all of their hits or jump away defending and evading them successfully (diving can be a good idea depending)
• Killing the biggest quantity of them possible and focusing in the ones with less HP is more efficient than killing the stronger ones or letting some alive with low HP.
• Use makeshift ítems and throws instead of wasting your bullets and weapons durability if it's possible.
• Running away will not make you win, don't let more of them to come and always calculate where is the best place to move before doing anything, but don't waste time.
• The most important thing is the survivability of you and your team, so avoid taking risks and don't let anything touch you.

And LMAO, the boss from wave 10 is so funny! I loved this!

0 x

♫ I won't walk into the gates of hell just yetThough it's where I belong ♪

Have you played the survival map yet? Was it too easy? Too difficult? Did it take too long before you died? If it was boring, why? If it was fun, why? Being able to retry a wave a good thing? What's your thoughts?

I have played the survival mode once and we survived to wave 24. This took us about 20-30 minutes. We started another round after that but I didn't really want to sit through it again so I quit; this is a general rule of thumb for any survival/horde mode out there - if you have to power through waves of things coming at you in such a static manner it's going to get boring quick. There isn't anything necessarily wrong with the mode itself, it's just how these rounds usually play out that makes me yawn and I won't lie I didn't expect this.

That's not to say the map isn't well designed, though. It is, very much so. It's not too open but not too enclosed either, allowing free movement around it through multiple platforms, ladders and pathways. It's not too horizontal or too vertical, and has enough hazards sprinkled in it to let players improvise ways out of sticky horde situations swiftly.

Splinter's boss music is goddamn fantastic, and that no longer comes off as a surprise. I also feel the new intro/splash screen sequence, combined with the atmospheric soundtrack, give the game a darker, a more mature, a more serious vibe. I really like this and I hope this stays after Halloween is over. It goes to show how far we've come and how far we've progressed; it's the kind of polish you'd expect to see in a game after its release. It's something that shows people out there put actual effort into their work and tried to make it as good-looking and as likable as possible. It's professional, and I think people buying the game in the future will highly appreciate such a proper introduction to their game.

I digress. When I launched the game I immediately noticed the credits at the bottom right were changed to accommodate Splinter's (very welcome) addition, but now with HZLancher being credited as the creator of the "Original Superfighters soundtrack"; I later found out a jukebox spawning randomly throughout the waves plays the old SF music if it's interacted with, which is a very cool throwback to where most of your players originally came from. I'm sure this was a pleasant surprise not only for myself but for other SF players too.

Now for the map's actual gameplay. Another pleasant surprise was acquiring weapons off dead zombies as opposed to buying them with points by killing them. This is a system most zombie maps featured before the update and I was worried you'd decide to follow the same path. I think a buy-your-own-equipment system really adds this amount of control over drops that generally detracts from the mode's fun value. It both makes the game easier, while simultaneously making the mode more boring to play and only providing a mere illusion of choice. "Oh gee, what should I buy to combat these 50 zombies coming my way? A sniper rifle or an M60? An AR that has less ammo or an SMG that has more ammo?"

A random weapon drop system fits the game better, and I like the resource management aspect it introduces (forcing players to share equipment among themselves instead of buying things for their own personal use). The argument can obviously go both ways but I prefer the system the way you implemented it. I also like the fact each wave is its own "match"; after it's finished everything in the map respawns and you get the same options to combat the zombie horde you did prior to destroying everything with fire and explosives. You get to keep your weapons too; that's good game design as far as I'm concerned. The bot AI is also fairly competent. It waits around and has delayed attacks, making it less predictable than the training AI used in previous, unofficial zombie maps. I can only hope the human AI will follow the same path but obviously be slightly more resourceful.

Now for the stuff I would like to see changed and or/added to future survival-mode maps.

In the beginning of the post I said "fighting things in such a static manner gets boring quick", and that's because it is. There's not much to the mode other than waiting around for the zombies to come to you and bashing their head in or shooting them. These are zombies after all; they're mindless creatures craving little more than flesh and brain matter, so it's only natural for them to choose the shortest and most straightforward path to you and your delicious teammates - a path that usually leads them right into gunfire or traps. It's almost too easy. There's nothing distracting you from doing the killing and these zombies only pose a threat when they come at you in large quantities or when you're severely under-equipped.

What differentiates between good horde-mode games and bad horde-mode games are objectives. Let me just preface what I'm about to say by pointing out that there's nothing wrong with a simplistic gamemode; sometimes a mindless kill-'em-up is all you need to get through the day and that's also fine. What I'm looking for, though, and what I sort of expected out of an official map, is complexity - a thing you can only achieve by spicing the mode up with things to do or objectives to complete. Your map already has a cutscene and talking boss opponents, automatically putting it on a level above the rest, so you might as well go all the way in.

You know how you have the left and right side of the map where all the zombies come from? This is an opportunity. You can use these sides to introduce optional objectives the players could complete to get bonuses or affect future waves in a positive way, a la Left 4 Zed. When I say "objective" I don't mean "spawn object and have players interact with it", I mean different screens players enter to complete whatever it is they are supposed to do. For example, have a wooden crossroads sign spawn at the beginning of the wave (and at the edge of either side of the map) indicating you can "teleport" to another screen and have it be interactable like the jukebox. Interacting with it could either teleport whoever it is interacting with the sign to the different screen, or the whole team together once someone interacts with it, or require everyone to interact with it to teleport everyone at once.

As for the objectives, you could have them be prerequisites to finishing the wave and starting the next round (if you want to force players to complete them), or just have them give players items they wouldn't otherwise obtain through combat. I would personally prefer the latter but the former can be an option as well. Here are some examples for said objectives:

A small police station or a gun store filled with zombies; fight through the horde to get to choose your own weapon, or get ammo for the weapons you currently have equipped (like the choose-your-own-equipment system but in optional-objective form).

A scrapyard or an abandoned building; collect 4-6 pieces of wood/metal (interactable objects, like the jukebox) to barricade the main map area and give you shelter/a short break before being forced to fight again.

A graveyard; destroy graves to lower the amount of zombies spawning in the next wave(s).

A blaring car alarm or an ambulance/police siren in the middle of the street; your group comes from one side and an infinite horde of zombies from the other. Destroy the car to lower the amount of zombies spawning in the next wave(s).

A generator in a power station/plant; carry/kick/punch gas canisters to the generator to turn the power back on or to stop it from making noise, lowering the amount of zombies spawning in the next wave(s).

A radio tower; reach the top (perhaps have players do some minor platforming?) to signal for backup - every player in the lobby gets to play the next wave, regardless of zombie-player balance.

A camp site with a bunch of tents and a campfire, surrounded by trees; have 1-2 NPCs equipped with melee weapons be sandwiched between a horde of zombies. Help them fight and they'll join the next waves until they're killed, assuming you didn't kill them (which you probably did, you bastard).

Have these objectives be randomized and have players not know which objective they'll be doing before entering the stage. Even if these objectives aren't necessarily all that useful, it's something to do. You don't have to do it but it's fun and requires a certain degree of teamwork. It varies up the core gameplay loop of the gamemode and produces random outcomes which really is everything SFD's about. Eaten by zombies while raiding a gunshop? Not a failure, but rather an experience and a story to tell your friends when you're done playing.

Another thing that could vary the monotonous fighting up a bit is round modifiers. Simply have unique things happen each stage; perhaps announce that they're happening or have visual clues spawn in the background or foreground so that players aren't nearly as confused/surprised. Here are some possible round modifiers:

[Object] A big, air-tight gas tank; releases zombie pheromones (smoke particles around the map or thicker clouds in the background) - zombies are twice as fast/slow, twice as deadly/weak, twice as tough/fragile or twice as aggressive/docile for the duration of the wave.

[Object] A flare on the roof; interact with it to signal military forces to drop you a preset amount of supply crates from the sky. Risk having the military decide they'd rather carpet-bombing the whole place and blow it up to bits and pieces.

[Object] A big crate of medical equipment ("are those drugs?"); have game speed increase/decrease for the duration of the wave if at least one player interacts with the object.

[Object] A dodgy crate of ammunition ("are those even legal?"); have each player receive 2 magazines/ammo portions for all their equipped weapons if at least one player interacts with the object. Or have it make a huge boom.

[Object] A shovel/pickaxe rack; have both sides of the map (where the zombies spawn) "collapse" and require some climbing on the zombies' part to reach the map's center. Or have parts of the main building turn dynamic and collapse, crushing everything underneath them.

[Misc] Acid rain; everything standing outside the main structure takes chip-damage for the duration of the wave.

I think these will not only spice the game up but will also involve a certain amount of decision making on the player's part. Do we really want to speed the game up right now? We might be able to slow it down, though. Should we risk trying to get ammo and possibly sacrifice one of our men? Do we need supplies right now or should we leave this possibly-dooming airstrike call alone?

The possibilities are only hampered by your imagination.

As for other small improvements, I'd like to see more emphasis put on the zombie bosses. If possible, really zoom the camera in on the boss spawning and have it do some sort of move, like swinging an axe once in both direction and performing a jump-slam. Have speech bubbles be randomized, make the zombies say different things each time. Maybe have more cutscenes? Have one imply that there will be an end to the gamemode, that help is coming, that there's still "hope" for the fighters to escape (even if there's no real ending)?

That'd be cool. Maybe have different characters come in and say stuff, or have each of them say heroic things and get hilariously eaten while doing so. Randomizing those encounters would be preferred, I bet.

I know there's some really cool stuff you can do with scripting so I hope what I'm suggesting is doable, even if not in this official format.

Was it too easy? Too difficult? Did it take too long before you died? If it was boring, why? If it was fun, why? Being able to retry a wave a good thing? What's your thoughts?

In terms of difficulty, I feel like a lot of elements were handled nicely. Players don't take much damage per individual hits, which is important since more often than not if you're in a situation where you'll take 1 hit, you'll end up taking 7+ in quick succession. Zombies don't spawn in such massive numbers that you can't kill the frontrunners fast enough early on, but this becomes a problem later in waves (I'll touch on that in a sec). Weapons feel a little scarce so it's hard to keep yourself armed, weapons drain durability too fast to use consistently, most melee weapons kill in 2 hits (on normal zombies anyways) so it's not much of an upgrade path, and later on the stronger zombies don't consistently drop weapons (like they do early on, where agents = a good weapon, army dudes = a solid primary, etc). Also, police don't drop batons??? whaaaat

Difficulty ramps up fast after around wave 20 or so, and gets extreme at wave 30+. This is more a result of the hoard getting bigger without any variance in enemy types or the way the player must approach the hoard. Furthermore, after playing a good few rounds, the early game doesn't seem to have any fast way to progress through it, so getting back up to whatever wave was your highest just ends up taking forever. Enemies don't have any particular thought process/actions so all enemies end up acting the same (except bosses, which are generally just enemies you must approach carefully (Melee beast for a faster kill, burn/explode atilla since he's so healthy, etc)), and the only enemy that you really gotta watch out for is the fire zombie, which also ends up being one of the fast ways to clean up crowds later on.

This leads to fire being incredibly dominant in this mode, which imo it should be, but it also dominates as the only way to effectively clean up when you get later into the game. Enemies just spawn in too great a number with not enough weapons to go around, and fire is the only way to cut through the crowd. Fire zombies end up being a nice counter to this (since they can't die to fire), but they also burn all the zombies too...

My biggest gripe with the mode is the map, which feels a little too cramped. I feel restricted in my ability to get around, and zombies are very quick to react to you, so it's pretty tough to get around them. I suppose this is fine considering if we could just avoid zombies easily we'd be unstoppable gods, but it does feel a bit cheesy. Furthermore, they only spawn from 2 spots! On the left side it's incredibly easy to sit down the hall and shoot, maybe hit a gas can and suddenly the left side is locked down until the fire burns out - and late game, when zombies spawn in such massive numbers that the flames don't go out, you basically turn on a furnace and the game plays itself. On the right side, the zombies dive off a cliff, which is much more difficult to deal with because there isn't much space to deal with them. Then again, there's the ladder you can sit on, and kick them off until they all die. This is basically the strategy I'm seeing get to wave 40+ easily and consistently, and you only really need 2 players for it, which also makes the health spawns more reliable-

Speaking of health wow lmao only 75 per wave really screws over a team of 3 or 4. Once a player dies wave 20+ it can be pretty damning trying to catch back up. Even then it's hard just to fill 2 people up if you take heavy hits during a wave. This is kind of good considering players are unlikely to die otherwise, I guess. It's not *too* hard to survive without doing any big cheesy things.

also the retry system is pretty great, smart implementation. Sometimes I get knocked off an edge and fall on a barrel, dying instantly. Really frustrating, good to know I have a safety net.

Anyways, Klip was right about it getting monotonous after awhile, but that's the nature of hoard modes. Things to spice it up or add depth are pretty easy to come up with considering the imagination really is the limit. I think a good system would be some form of perk or upgrade system that lets you upgrade your character to be better with certain weapons, or with special quirks to give you an edge. This then leads to either a resource system or some sort of decision to make between rounds. I think it would be neat to see all sorts of perks available that upgrade teams (always spawn with half health, always drop an extra health box, start every round with a pistol, regain health on melee kills, etc) or upgrade weapons (sniper rifles pierce enemies, grenade launchers deal half damage to yourself, pistol has more ammo, etc). This of course sounds like a lot will need to be done in order to make them possible, but they'd all be great changes/additions to the survival mode to give it depth, replayability, and a longer-lasting endgame. This is only the beginning.

this is a little jumbled but I think it's a good post with good content please read it
thanks

I'm surprised how absurdly and totally well planned the Survival mode is, it's super entertaining and what it makes it fun (also all it needs) is the difficult, like when we wonder "How the hell have we won this wave? It was so hard, I'm sweating", "I died and your HP was almost zero! Fucking well done!".

I don't think the lack of objectives is a problem, I'd say if there's something that can make it boring (even though it's not that for me at least) is the very slow progressivity of the rounds. I'd reach round X after more than half an hour playing the Survival mode and I want to go harder next time, but for that, It takes me a lot of time to waste passing through easy waves, and we're like "Uh, all this again?".

It's actually like the merits for those who reach higher waves is the time they've put on it and not only their skills. Harder waves should be a bit closer to the beginning. And I don't think a wave is necessarily hard regarding the number of enemies on it, the zombies kept coming like an overdose an/d their numbers increasing greatly per wave, at some point my computer is not even processing them. If their numbers reduce a bit from how it is now and their power slightly increases each round, this would be something very balanced, + my suggestion of making it faster to reach harder rounds.

Another thing that could vary the monotonous fighting up a bit is round modifiers. Simply have unique things happen each stage; perhaps announce that they're happening or have visual clues spawn in the background or foreground so that players aren't nearly as confused/surprised. Here are some possible round modifiers:

[Object] A big, air-tight gas tank; releases zombie pheromones (smoke particles around the map or thicker clouds in the background) - zombies are twice as fast/slow, twice as deadly/weak, twice as tough/fragile or twice as aggressive/docile for the duration of the wave.

[Object] A flare on the roof; interact with it to signal military forces to drop you a preset amount of supply crates from the sky. Risk having the military decide they'd rather carpet-bombing the whole place and blow it up to bits and pieces.

[Object] A big crate of medical equipment ("are those drugs?"); have game speed increase/decrease for the duration of the wave if at least one player interacts with the object.

[Object] A dodgy crate of ammunition ("are those even legal?"); have each player receive 2 magazines/ammo portions for all their equipped weapons if at least one player interacts with the object. Or have it make a huge boom.

[Object] A shovel/pickaxe rack; have both sides of the map (where the zombies spawn) "collapse" and require some climbing on the zombies' part to reach the map's center. Or have parts of the main building turn dynamic and collapse, crushing everything underneath them.

[Misc] Acid rain; everything standing outside the main structure takes chip-damage for the duration of the wave.

I love what KliPeH said above. If random (or not) factors (others than the bosses) differenciates the rounds between them. This is very present even in custom maps and in a lot of games. Like:

- In this round we're having an acid rain, this will somehow affect me and my friends;
- This other round the map is somehow different than before, something is broken? They have another spawn point, maybe?
- I like the "Red Moon" event from Terraria, they are uncoveniently stronger this round, why is that happening? Why are we so unlucky? Their appearance are a bit changed too.

By the way, the spectator system is really cool, but:

- Something could indicate the players are spectating and not playing, like the teams name;
- The host should have control to choose who will join the battle any time, this is a "fair system" to choose the players who will fight based in their time in the server, but this forces the host to kick unwanted people and that's not good. This system should be automatic but the host must have the capability to change who will be fighting as well;
- If choosing how will the spectator system work is viable (like selecting the players who are in the server for longest time), an option letting a spectator fight in place of one who died would be really cool.

Also, Zombie Nightmare as a normal map is weird, the server config should be like:

Server name: [Name of the server]
Gamemode: [Versus | Survival]
Maps: [They will change depending on what I clicked in gamemode]

Besides that, I'm sad and afraid about the fact I don't have much perspective playing Zombie Nightmare, wave 35 is very easily reachable (even though it takes too long) but after that my FPS gets lower than 5 (Local Performance poor), I froze when songs are loading and I can't go any further, what makes me even an useless support. I wonder how cool it is to rek zombies smoothly, will SFD be better optimized for bad computers in future?

And finally, music quality seems excellent, but it doubled the weight of the game and it takes a lot of time to load, is it really necessary to be like that? It could be lighter, I think, or an option to choose the Audio Quality in future would be really cool.

1 x

♫ I won't walk into the gates of hell just yetThough it's where I belong ♪

The new game mode is amazing, the music is great especially the one that pops out during boss battles.

the only thing that seems to be boring to me are the boss battles.
I think there should be more bosses, and bosses should appear in waves 10, 20, 30, 40 etc. tbh when i saw the first 2 bosses, i was so excited, i thought there would be more bosses and a very tough final boss. but i was disappointed that the last boss was the one at wave 15, who wasn't even hard to take down, 5 bosses in total would be enough, maybe a really hard 5th (final) boss at wave 50 would be cool. since wave 48 is highest so far, final boss at 50 could be really cool, also i think bosses should be fire proof, because fire kills them very easily since they don't roll or dive.

Objectives also seem to be a good addition, rather than just sticking to the same map and killing zombies, going to other locations for equipments and stuffs sounds fun. anyway great job guys!

Upon further playing taking a fall deals a lot of damage to the player, as does fire. I'm not saying to tone down fire, since that's the main threat later in the game and it adds risk/reward (that fire zombie might toast half the hoard, but me too if I get caught in it...) but maybe look at impact damage for the player, since there are a lot of instances where I'll get hit by multiple uppercuts at once and just go FLYING, taking half my health from the fall. Falling onto explosive barrels is also a serious risk since that will instantly kill the player.

Other than that, the mode is very barebones. Might actually be too easy to survive the first ~20 waves, but that might just be the SFD vet in me. I'd love to see more danger, more zombie variety and behaviors, more map interactivity, and more decisions for the player to make. Point-resource systems work, and can be implemented in many ways (using traps, setting up barricades, opening up new ways around a map, etc) so think about it a bit. If you're trying to make it feel more like SFD and less like other games, I'm sure you guys have creative ideas.