Research in Motion lost less than expected in second quarter

Research in Motion, the company behind the struggling BlackBerry line of smartphones, beat Wall Street's expectations in its second fiscal quarter, with a net loss of $235 million dollars, or 45 cents per share. That's slightly better than analysts' predictions of 46 cents per share, and it's also significantly better than last quarter, when the Waterloo, Ontario-based company lost $518 million.

Still, the last year hasn't gone well. The company earned $329 million, or 63 cents a share, in the same period a year ago.

According to the Wall Street Journal, RIM's revenues fell precipitously over the last year. In the second quarter of fiscal 2011, RIM had revenues of $4.2 billion. This year, revenues were $2.9 billion in the second quarter, slightly up from $2.8 billion in the first quarter. Again, the slight improvement surprised analysts who thought the company's revenue would fall to $2.5 billion.

The news sent RIM's stock price shooting up 18 percent in after hours trading to $8.45 per share.

Cool. Are you cheering the for the demise of viable competition in the market place, innovation in general through competition, the demise of a company that has somehow offended you, or the loss of jobs when businesses fail? Or are you trying to be clever? Can't tell honestly.

Cool. Are you cheering the for the demise of viable competition in the market place, innovation in general through competition, the demise of a company that has somehow offended you, or the loss of jobs when businesses fail? Or are you trying to be clever? Can't tell honestly.

I think he's cheering because:

A) RIM has very, very clearly proven that they are no longer viable competition in this marketB) Innovation? Oh, you mean that thing all of RIM's competitors are doing.

No one is cheering because people are being laid off, but I'm sorry, you cannot do what RIM is doing and expect to be a successful company in this market. That's just not how the world works. He's cheering because the system is working. (Putting words in his mouth, but that's what it seems like)

You're kidding, yes? "Exceeding expectations" is pretty meaningless when your company is doing its best impression of the Titanic.

You clearly don't understand how markets work. When a company exceeds expectations (whether it earns more or loses less doesn't matter) its stock will rise.

People expect Apple to earn a lot, so they buy Apple shares before the earnings report. When the earnings are slightly lower than expected, people will sell shares until this new information is factored into the price.

Cool. Are you cheering the for the demise of viable competition in the market place, innovation in general through competition, the demise of a company that has somehow offended you, or the loss of jobs when businesses fail? Or are you trying to be clever? Can't tell honestly.

I think he's cheering because:

A) RIM has very, very clearly proven that they are no longer viable competition in this marketB) Innovation? Oh, you mean that thing all of RIM's competitors are doing.

No one is cheering because people are being laid off, but I'm sorry, you cannot do what RIM is doing and expect to be a successful company in this market. That's just not how the world works. He's cheering because the system is working. (Putting words in his mouth, but that's what it seems like)

I think he is cheering because people are more excited to see other fail than succeed these days. It makes you feel better as a person, because someone else is worse off than you are. I was always wondering about specific hate for RIM by some people - if you feel they will fail, put your money where your mouth is and short their stock. Not only will you be right, but you will also laugh all the way to the bank.

Everything else (I am not talking about constructive discussion on what they are doing wrong and how they could fix it, because that is what grown ups do and what you should do in your workplace to keep the money coming in) is a pure act of "fanboism" and enjoyment of someone's misery.

You're kidding, yes? "Exceeding expectations" is pretty meaningless when your company is doing its best impression of the Titanic.

You clearly don't understand how markets work. When a company exceeds expectations (whether it earns more or loses less doesn't matter) its stock will rise.

People expect Apple to earn a lot, so they buy Apple shares before the earnings report. When the earnings are slightly lower than expected, people will sell shares until this new information is factored into the price.

No I get how that works, I just don't get why you would invest in a company that is hemorrhaging money, regardless of what their expectations were. If you're in the red, you're in the red, aside from pretty special circumstances like Microsoft earlier this year.

Cool. Are you cheering the for the demise of viable competition in the market place, innovation in general through competition, the demise of a company that has somehow offended you, or the loss of jobs when businesses fail? Or are you trying to be clever? Can't tell honestly.

I think he's cheering because:

A) RIM has very, very clearly proven that they are no longer viable competition in this marketB) Innovation? Oh, you mean that thing all of RIM's competitors are doing.

No one is cheering because people are being laid off, but I'm sorry, you cannot do what RIM is doing and expect to be a successful company in this market. That's just not how the world works. He's cheering because the system is working. (Putting words in his mouth, but that's what it seems like)

I think he is cheering because people are more excited to see other fail than succeed these days. It makes you feel better as a person, because someone else is worse off than you are.

I think you are probably correct, my suggestion is that he should just do what the rest of us do to feel better about themselves. Go watch "Here comes Honey Boo-Boo". Seriously, it's like watching a genetic train wreck in progress. 5 minutes of viewership and you immediately feel 200% better about ANY decision you have ever made.

You're kidding, yes? "Exceeding expectations" is pretty meaningless when your company is doing its best impression of the Titanic.

You clearly don't understand how markets work. When a company exceeds expectations (whether it earns more or loses less doesn't matter) its stock will rise.

People expect Apple to earn a lot, so they buy Apple shares before the earnings report. When the earnings are slightly lower than expected, people will sell shares until this new information is factored into the price.

No I get how that works, I just don't get why you would invest in a company that is hemorrhaging money, regardless of what their expectations were. If you're in the red, you're in the red, aside from pretty special circumstances like Microsoft earlier this year.

On the other hand, where would you be now if you had invested in Apple when everyone thought they were done for?

Cool. Are you cheering the for the demise of viable competition in the market place, innovation in general through competition, the demise of a company that has somehow offended you, or the loss of jobs when businesses fail? Or are you trying to be clever? Can't tell honestly.

I think he's cheering because:

A) RIM has very, very clearly proven that they are no longer viable competition in this marketB) Innovation? Oh, you mean that thing all of RIM's competitors are doing.

No one is cheering because people are being laid off, but I'm sorry, you cannot do what RIM is doing and expect to be a successful company in this market. That's just not how the world works. He's cheering because the system is working. (Putting words in his mouth, but that's what it seems like)

I think he is cheering because people are more excited to see other fail than succeed these days. It makes you feel better as a person, because someone else is worse off than you are. I was always wondering about specific hate for RIM by some people - if you feel they will fail, put your money where your mouth is and short their stock. Not only will you be right, but you will also laugh all the way to the bank.

Everything else (I am not talking about constructive discussion on what they are doing wrong and how they could fix it, because that is what grown ups do and what you should do in your workplace to keep the money coming in) is a pure act of "fanboism" and enjoyment of someone's misery.

Can we make some sort of rule where people can't just go "well if you do/say _____ you're automatically a fanboy and all of your opinions are therefore invalid"? Especially after talking about how "grown ups" do things? It's really kind of embarrassing and not at all a valid argument for anything, ever.

Furthermore, why should we have to come up with ideas on how RIM should save themselves? That's their damn job, and they're clearly not doing it. I'm sorry that you feel RIM are being falsely victimized, but as far as I see it, the market is survival of the fittest and it appears to me that they are simply no longer fit to survive.

When was the last time RIM put out a truly note-worthy product? Their true technological accomplishments all happened years before. Honestly, the most valuable thing they have at this point is their massive portfolio of patents.

You're kidding, yes? "Exceeding expectations" is pretty meaningless when your company is doing its best impression of the Titanic.

You clearly don't understand how markets work. When a company exceeds expectations (whether it earns more or loses less doesn't matter) its stock will rise.

People expect Apple to earn a lot, so they buy Apple shares before the earnings report. When the earnings are slightly lower than expected, people will sell shares until this new information is factored into the price.

No I get how that works, I just don't get why you would invest in a company that is hemorrhaging money, regardless of what their expectations were. If you're in the red, you're in the red, aside from pretty special circumstances like Microsoft earlier this year.

On the other hand, where would you be now if you had invested in Apple when everyone thought they were done for?

No I get how that works, I just don't get why you would invest in a company that is hemorrhaging money, regardless of what their expectations were. If you're in the red, you're in the red, aside from pretty special circumstances like Microsoft earlier this year.

Simple, because there's always the chance that the company will become profitable again. It's a bet. And in case of RIM it's "high risk, high return".

In contrast, people believe in Apple so its stock price is already sky high. In other words: Although it is very likely that Apple will continue to be very profitable, its stock price already reflects that. So buying Apple shares right now is relatively low risk and consequently lower return.

You're kidding, yes? "Exceeding expectations" is pretty meaningless when your company is doing its best impression of the Titanic.

You clearly don't understand how markets work. When a company exceeds expectations (whether it earns more or loses less doesn't matter) its stock will rise.

People expect Apple to earn a lot, so they buy Apple shares before the earnings report. When the earnings are slightly lower than expected, people will sell shares until this new information is factored into the price.

No I get how that works, I just don't get why you would invest in a company that is hemorrhaging money, regardless of what their expectations were. If you're in the red, you're in the red, aside from pretty special circumstances like Microsoft earlier this year.

On the other hand, where would you be now if you had invested in Apple when everyone thought they were done for?

You're kidding, yes? "Exceeding expectations" is pretty meaningless when your company is doing its best impression of the Titanic.

You clearly don't understand how markets work. When a company exceeds expectations (whether it earns more or loses less doesn't matter) its stock will rise.

People expect Apple to earn a lot, so they buy Apple shares before the earnings report. When the earnings are slightly lower than expected, people will sell shares until this new information is factored into the price.

No I get how that works, I just don't get why you would invest in a company that is hemorrhaging money, regardless of what their expectations were. If you're in the red, you're in the red, aside from pretty special circumstances like Microsoft earlier this year.

Turning around a loss (ie making a smaller loss than last quarter) suggests that a company might find its feet again and start turning a profit. Hence why you would invest.

You're kidding, yes? "Exceeding expectations" is pretty meaningless when your company is doing its best impression of the Titanic.

You clearly don't understand how markets work. When a company exceeds expectations (whether it earns more or loses less doesn't matter) its stock will rise.

People expect Apple to earn a lot, so they buy Apple shares before the earnings report. When the earnings are slightly lower than expected, people will sell shares until this new information is factored into the price.

No I get how that works, I just don't get why you would invest in a company that is hemorrhaging money, regardless of what their expectations were. If you're in the red, you're in the red, aside from pretty special circumstances like Microsoft earlier this year.

On the other hand, where would you be now if you had invested in Apple when everyone thought they were done for?

Well, I was about 11 at the time, so that would have been a tall order. However, my family did and made quite a bit of money off it. While I understand your point, it's also important to note that Apple's turnaround was a pretty extreme outlier and not at all indicative of how most companies can expect things to go for them. Unless RIM has a Steve Jobs, Jony Ivy, Scott Forstall, etc. all hidden up their many sleeves...

Cool. Are you cheering the for the demise of viable competition in the market place, innovation in general through competition, the demise of a company that has somehow offended you, or the loss of jobs when businesses fail? Or are you trying to be clever? Can't tell honestly.

I think he's cheering because:

A) RIM has very, very clearly proven that they are no longer viable competition in this marketB) Innovation? Oh, you mean that thing all of RIM's competitors are doing.

No one is cheering because people are being laid off, but I'm sorry, you cannot do what RIM is doing and expect to be a successful company in this market. That's just not how the world works. He's cheering because the system is working. (Putting words in his mouth, but that's what it seems like)

I think he is cheering because people are more excited to see other fail than succeed these days. It makes you feel better as a person, because someone else is worse off than you are. I was always wondering about specific hate for RIM by some people - if you feel they will fail, put your money where your mouth is and short their stock. Not only will you be right, but you will also laugh all the way to the bank.

Everything else (I am not talking about constructive discussion on what they are doing wrong and how they could fix it, because that is what grown ups do and what you should do in your workplace to keep the money coming in) is a pure act of "fanboism" and enjoyment of someone's misery.

Can we make some sort of rule where people can't just go "well if you do/say _____ you're automatically a fanboy and all of your opinions are therefore invalid"? Especially after talking about how "grown ups" do things? It's really kind of embarrassing and not at all a valid argument for anything, ever.

Furthermore, why should we have to come up with ideas on how RIM should save themselves? That's their damn job, and they're clearly not doing it. I'm sorry that you feel RIM are being falsely victimized, but as far as I see it, the market is survival of the fittest and it appears to me that they are simply no longer fit to survive.

When was the last time RIM put out a truly note-worthy product? Their true technological accomplishments all happened years before. Honestly, the most valuable thing they have at this point is their massive portfolio of patents.

Wee bit sensitive there... That's OK, I understand. I am deleting "fanboy" out of my dictionary, seeing how I will enrage part of population that thinks it is an unfair term.

Now, having said that, I offered 3 options - either you put your money where your mouth is, provide some constructive criticism or cheer for your team. It is as simple and as complicated as that. There is nothing wrong with being in love with a brand but, apparently, being sensitive to when someone calls you out on it is.

No I get how that works, I just don't get why you would invest in a company that is hemorrhaging money, regardless of what their expectations were. If you're in the red, you're in the red, aside from pretty special circumstances like Microsoft earlier this year.

Simple, because there's always the chance that the company will become profitable again. It's a bet. And in case of RIM it's "high risk, high return".

In contrast, people believe in Apple so its stock price is already sky high. In other words: Although it is very likely that Apple will continue to be very profitable, its stock price already reflects that. So buying Apple shares right now is relatively low risk and consequently lower return.

I'm fine with that definition. It's a gamble. I guess what I was saying was that the risk seems a lot higher than the possible reward, at least in this situation, with this market.

Personally, developing for BB10 is a blast compared to other platforms and hopefully it will emerge (remain?) as 3rd major player along with Apple and Google. .

I really hope RIM today is equivalent of late 1990s Apple.

I think that the third player in the phone OS market after Google (about 68% worldwide) and Apple (about 17% worldwide) will be Microsoft.

Microsoft can lose between $235 million dollars to $518 million per quarter in its mobile division for the next 10 years and not even feel it because of its Windows and Office monopolies on the desktop.- By contrast RIM cannot keep hemorrhaging money for long without going under or being bought out.

While I understand your point, it's also important to note that Apple's turnaround was a pretty extreme outlier and not at all indicative of how most companies can expect things to go for them. Unless RIM has a Steve Jobs, Jony Ivy, Scott Forstall, etc. all hidden up their many sleeves...

Sure...its definitely a long shot. As I said in an earlier thread, I am not buying stock....but I am not the sort to go all in on long odds. Others thrive on that sort of thing so it is not surprising that people are excited about better than expected performance.

Wee bit sensitive there... That's OK, I understand. I am deleting "fanboy" out of my dictionary, seeing how I will enrage part of population that thinks it is an unfair term.

Now, having said that, I offered 3 options - either you put your money where your mouth is, provide some constructive criticism or cheer for your team. It is as simple and as complicated as that. There is nothing wrong with being in love with a brand but, apparently, being sensitive to when someone calls you out on it is.

I took objection because labeling someone as a fanboy is essentially saying "nothing you say is valid or will ever be valid", without ever having to actually make a point of your own.

I went with option 3. I am team "good technology". I do not believe RIM makes this (anymore). That's literally all there is to it. Android is great. iOS is great. Surprisingly (to me), Windows Phone is really great. There are more notable/exciting Android devices announced in a quarter than there have been notable BB devices in the past 3 years.

I don't understand why pointing this out makes someone a bad person or a "fanboy".

I think the most ridiculous part of this whole thing is that if this were Apple crashing and burning out of the market, people would be throwing parties. RIM has somehow fallen into this "aww, poor underdog" thing. Silly.

While I understand your point, it'well though Christmas so important to note that Apple's turnaround was a pretty extreme outlier and not at all indicative of how most companies can expect things to go for them. Unless RIM has a Steve Jobs, Jony Ivy, Scott Forstall, etc. all hidden up their many sleeves...

Sure...its definitely a long shot. As I said in an earlier thread, I am not buying stock....but I am not the sort to go all in on long odds. Others thrive on that sort of thing so it is not surprising that people are excited about better than expected performance.

It depends how long you hope to hold onto the shares for. If they do well through Christmas and then have a half decent BB10 launch you could see them gain 30% then cash out.

I think the most ridiculous part of this whole thing is that if this were Apple crashing and burning out of the market, people would be throwing parties. RIM has somehow fallen into this "aww, poor underdog" thing. Silly.

not that these types of comments are worth anything but there are PLENTY of "lulz RIM is dead" type comments. you just have not happened upon them at this time. it's not all poor underdog.

It depends how long you hope to hold onto the shares for. If they do well through Christmas and then have a half decent BB10 launch you could see them gain 30% then cash out.

Gaining 30% would be a few dollars, so unless you bought a LOOOOOT of shares, that would be entirely worthless.

... I actually laughed out loud when I read this post. Are you saying that a 30% return is less meaningful because the price of an individual stock is relatively small?

No? How on earth ... what? Did you even read the discussion? First guy was talking about RIM stock as "high risk, high reward" based on where the company is at right now. The next guy followed up saying that if you held on for long enough, you could see 30% returns and "cash out". I just pointed out that this would not be a lot of money unless you bought a LOT of stock, so it wouldn't really be "high reward".

You're kidding, yes? "Exceeding expectations" is pretty meaningless when your company is doing its best impression of the Titanic.

You clearly don't understand how markets work. When a company exceeds expectations (whether it earns more or loses less doesn't matter) its stock will rise.

People expect Apple to earn a lot, so they buy Apple shares before the earnings report. When the earnings are slightly lower than expected, people will sell shares until this new information is factored into the price.

No I get how that works, I just don't get why you would invest in a company that is hemorrhaging money, regardless of what their expectations were. If you're in the red, you're in the red, aside from pretty special circumstances like Microsoft earlier this year.

1) You buy shares.2) You wait for the share price to go up.3) You sell shares.4) Profit.

I'm pretty sure most people day trading couldn't care less RIM burns down to the ground as long as they can get out of their share ownership with a decent profit.

Long term shareholders may be more concerned about overall health of the company though.

And regarding the better-than-expected results, good for RIM. With all of the layoffs and losses they have gone through lately, this relatively successful week (apparently their developer conference in the States went well earlier this week) must be a bit of fresh air for the company.

It depends how long you hope to hold onto the shares for. If they do well through Christmas and then have a half decent BB10 launch you could see them gain 30% then cash out.

Gaining 30% would be a few dollars, so unless you bought a LOOOOOT of shares, that would be entirely worthless.

... I actually laughed out loud when I read this post. Are you saying that a 30% return is less meaningful because the price of an individual stock is relatively small?

No? How on earth ... what? Did you even read the discussion? First guy was talking about RIM stock as "high risk, high reward" based on where the company is at right now. The next guy followed up saying that if you held on for long enough, you could see 30% returns and "cash out". I just pointed out that this would not be a lot of money unless you bought a LOT of stock, so it wouldn't really be "high reward".

Do people on here just read what they want to read?

Apologies for not connecting the dots to your implied reference of previous posts. Taken by itself, you must admit your post sounds pretty silly. Might want to add a sentence of context about risk/reward next time.

Apple: We made 800 bajillion dollars!Investors: Why didn't you make 900 bajillion dollars!??!?

RIM: We only lost 235 million dollars!Investors: Aww, good for you! You just keep on tryin' there.

FYI, in your example Apple was down 100 bajillion dollars, whereas RIM was up an untold amount. So essentially in that example Apple missed expectations, and RIM exceeded expectations.

The problem here is that those two companies are going in opposite directions. The first is doing very well, and the second it doing very poorly. The first will continue doing very well, and the second may not survive. The only real question about the second is how long will they be around. So whether they had a smaller loss than expected or not isn't the real question.

Investors can be funny that way. I've been investing since I was a kid—almost 50 years now, and I see a lot of odd behavior from the investing community. RIMs' stock going up 18% after hours was certainly one of them. What are these investors hoping for from this? Do they think this means RIM is out of the woods? Because it's not. That would be magical thinking. RIM is in the same dilemma it was before the report. All this means is that it might be able to last an extra quarter.

Apologies for not connecting the dots to your implied reference of previous posts. Taken by itself, you must admit your post sounds pretty silly. Might want to add a sentence of context about risk/reward next time.

I thought it was pretty clear, considering what I was replying to. In addition, the further context for that post was literally 2" higher on the screen.

UltimateLemon wrote:

1) You buy shares.2) You wait for the share price to go up.3) You sell shares.4) Profit.

I'm pretty sure most people day trading couldn't care less RIM burns down to the ground as long as they can get out of their share ownership with a decent profit.

Long term shareholders may be more concerned about overall health of the company though.

I understand this, but I guess where I was confused was ... who saw this announcement and thought "wow, RIM is out of the woods, I can make a good profit here!" They're still hemorrhaging cash and their only potential saving grace is a mystical product with no release date.

Timothy B. Lee / Timothy covers tech policy for Ars, with a particular focus on patent and copyright law, privacy, free speech, and open government. His writing has appeared in Slate, Reason, Wired, and the New York Times.