JVS, Welcome back and thanks for that cool link. The theme of death in Tristan Und Isolde is intriguing and western culture is infamous for denying death and propping up the ego and materialism to sublimate this fear- one of my favorite topics. Thoughtful Christian (Xian?) philosophers/sociologists/psychologists have written about our separation from the spiritual with the advent of industrialization/mechanization.

And while I agree that these concepts/beliefs and their influence on our lives in the context of music is implicit and valid, it is seemingly not possible to discuss them with any meaning on these forums without offending and alienating the

You know, I'm in SE Asia right now and I can't begin to tell you how nice it is to be away from the Judeo-Christian ethic that permeates the very fabric of Western society. You don't even realize how oppressive it is until you've been away from it.

Quote:You know, I'm in SE Asia right now and I can't begin to tell you how nice it is to be away from the Judeo-Christian ethic that permeates the very fabric of Western society. You don't even realize how oppressive it is until you've been away from it.

Quote:You know, I'm in SE Asia right now and I can't begin to tell you how nice it is to be away from the Judeo-Christian ethic that permeates the very fabric of Western society. You don't even realize how oppressive it is until you've been away from it.

Quote:You know, I'm in SE Asia right now and I can't begin to tell you how nice it is to be away from the Judeo-Christian ethic that permeates the very fabric of Western society. You don't even realize how oppressive it is until you've been away from it.

So, are you contemplating staying there? If not, then why not? Family? Job? ...If those are the things keeping you here, perhaps you don't really feel so oppressed.

In what ways are you being oppressed here? Seems to me people can pretty much do whatever they want.

There is really nothing keeping me here. I'm trying to figure out a way to stay in Thailand for good. Don't know how to do it yet.

The US has too many rules. Everything has a rule attached to it. No smoking, no loitering, no parking, don't feed the pigeons, no this, no that. Go to a park and there's a list of 10,000 rules.

Everything has this moralistic weight attached to it. You don't have to go far, look at the forums here. Look at how many members approach audio of all things with a sense of moral conviction and this desire to convert the masses. I find that many Americans see the world in black and white, right and wrong. There's no gray. I find it very tiring and oppressive.

In what ways are you being oppressed here? Seems to me people can pretty much do whatever they want.

I have a very strong sense that your race is Caucasian and your sexual orientation heterosexual. Few Latinos, lesbians and gays, or African-Americans other than Clarence Thomas would be inclined to write such a thing. Nor would the women who are routinely underpaid and battered, as happens in my neighborhood.

In what ways are you being oppressed here? Seems to me people can pretty much do whatever they want.

I have a very strong sense that your race is Caucasian and your sexual orientation heterosexual. Few Latinos, lesbians and gays, or African-Americans other than Clarence Thomas would be inclined to write such a thing. Nor would the women who are routinely underpaid and battered, as happens in my neighborhood.

The US has too many rules. Everything has a rule attached to it. No smoking, no loitering, no parking, don't feed the pigeons, no this, no that. Go to a park and there's a list of 10,000 rules.

Those of us who live in small towns and are surrounded by nature's beauty don't have the restrictions of a metropolitan lifestyle- jammed together with millions of others- and all the rules necessary to keep them from tearing each other apart. And only a few lawyers to keep busy . What we give up in "amenities" we reap a hundred fold in other ways. I am on the coast, surrounded by giant redwoods and between 2 great rivers- the Smith being the last undammed river in California and the Klamath undergoing dam liberation soon as a consequence of the farmers, native tribes and fishermen coming together to find common ground. I live IN a park. It's not perfect, but...as the man said:

Old pirates, yes, they rob i;Sold I to the merchant ships,Minutes after they took iFrom the bottomless pit.But my hand was made strongBy the and of the almighty.We forward in this generationTriumphantly.Wont you help to singThese songs of freedom? -cause all I ever have:Redemption songs;Redemption songs.

Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery;None but ourselves can free our minds.Have no fear for atomic energy,cause none of them can stop the time.How long shall they kill our prophets,While we stand aside and look? ooh!Some say its just a part of it:Weve got to fulfil de book.

Wont you help to singThese songs of freedom? -cause all I ever have:Redemption songs;Redemption songs;Redemption songs.

Those of us who live in small towns and are surrounded by nature's beauty don't have the restrictions of a metropolitan lifestyle- jammed together with millions of others- and all the rules necessary to keep them from tearing each other apart. And only a few lawyers to keep busy . What we give up in "amenities" we reap a hundred fold in other ways. I am on the coast, surrounded by giant redwoods and between 2 great rivers- the Smith being the last undammed river in California and the Klamath undergoing dam liberation soon as a consequence of the farmers, native tribes and fishermen coming together to find common ground.

That sounds all very nice and idyllic, but how do you make a living in a small town? What do you do for work? There aren't that many companies situated in small towns to provide employment.

Furthermore, I like bigger cities and if I were to pack my bags and move, I may as well move to a big city outside of the US.

It's on America's tortured browThat Mickey Mouse has grown up a cowNow the workers have struck for fame'Cause Lennon's on sale againSee the mice in their million hordesFrom Ibiza to the Norfolk BroadsRule Britannia is out of boundsTo my mother, my dog, and clownsBut the film is a sadd'ning bore'Cause I wrote it ten times or moreIt's about to be writ againAs I ask you to focus on

SailorsFighting in the dance hallOh man!Look at those cavemen goIt's the freakiest showTake a look at the lawmanBeating up the wrong guyOh man!Wonder if he'll ever knowHe's in the best selling showIs there life on Mars?

Those of us who live in small towns and are surrounded by nature's beauty don't have the restrictions of a metropolitan lifestyle- jammed together with millions of others- and all the rules necessary to keep them from tearing each other apart. And only a few lawyers to keep busy . What we give up in "amenities" we reap a hundred fold in other ways. I am on the coast, surrounded by giant redwoods and between 2 great rivers- the Smith being the last undammed river in California and the Klamath undergoing dam liberation soon as a consequence of the farmers, native tribes and fishermen coming together to find common ground.

That sounds all very nice and idyllic, but how do you make a living in a small town? What do you do for work? There aren't that many companies situated in small towns to provide employment.

Furthermore, I like bigger cities and if I were to pack my bags and move, I may as well move to a big city outside of the US.

If you think the grass is greener, hell, move. Ive spent a good chunk of my life in Europe, Asia(a lot in SE Asia!), and some time in Africa, while that traveling was fun, I couldnt wait to get back to my bible belt southern town.

I work for a government agency by day, by night, I record and sing professionally. Id never in a million years choose a city over the country, all those people, all that crime/pollution..egh., no peace!(ive lived in some large cities because I had to, not because I chose it) SE Asia aint all sunshine and roses either, as youll see soon enough.

In what ways are you being oppressed here? Seems to me people can pretty much do whatever they want.

I have a very strong sense that your race is Caucasian and your sexual orientation heterosexual. Few Latinos, lesbians and gays, or African-Americans other than Clarence Thomas would be inclined to write such a thing. Nor would the women who are routinely underpaid and battered, as happens in my neighborhood.

jason victor serinus

Well Jason, I don't know how race figures into it. As far as I know, the laws of the land apply to everyone equally. Or at least, that's the goal. Which is not to say there haven't been gross inequities in our history, but these have largely been dealt with. Still, human nature being what it is, we are all apt to suffer from, or cause suffering, from unfairness and mistreatment at some time on some level. It's an imperfect world, and has been since sin entered in to it.

Sexual "orientation"? I simply don't buy into that argument. Of course, that's another topic altogether, and I don't wish to derail this one.

That sounds all very nice and idyllic, but how do you make a living in a small town? What do you do for work? There aren't that many companies situated in small towns to provide employment.

Furthermore, I like bigger cities and if I were to pack my bags and move, I may as well move to a big city outside of the US.

Making a living can be difficult in a small town, especially if you have education or skills that aren't in much demand in typical small towns. Still, I'd rather be poor in the country or small town than to be poor in the city! Example: I LOVE Chicago. One of the most memorable and beautiful sights I've ever seen was the first time I drove into the city, on a warm July evening a few years ago. The lights of the city reflecting off Lake Michigan along Lakeshore Drive...Wow! People everywhere, out enjoying the lovely weather...it was just an idyllic setting (if such a term can be applied to a place with millions of people).

Then comes the light of day: Traffic, noise, pay-to-park...everything is expensive! All in all, I came away feeling it's a wonderful place to visit and probably a wonderful place to live -IF you have enough money!

Also, I've travelled to Bangkok, Thailand three times. All were wonderful experiences that I cherish, but I have no desire to live there. Each time, I was "so glad to be right back in the USA".

But that's just me. I can see how the pleasures of the city could be hard to resist for a younger person, one with no spouse or kids to support. Of course, I don't know your situation.

Remember, there's a whole lot of truth in the saying about the grass always being greener on the other side of the fence.

Then comes the light of day: Traffic, noise, pay-to-park...everything is expensive! All in all, I came away feeling it's a wonderful place to visit and probably a wonderful place to live -IF you have enough money!

Also, I've travelled to Bangkok, Thailand three times. All were wonderful experiences that I cherish, but I have no desire to live there. Each time, I was "so glad to be right back in the USA".

But that's just me. I can see how the pleasures of the city could be hard to resist for a younger person, one with no spouse or kids to support. Of course, I don't know your situation.

Remember, there's a whole lot of truth in the saying about the grass always being greener on the other side of the fence.

I've lived in big cities my entire life, so that's what I like and that's what I'm used to. I make a good enough living to live comfortably in New York, however, I find that I just don't feel at home here, or anywhere in the US. The US offers its opportunities, mostly material, but I just can't stand the self righteousness and the black and white view of the world that tends to be the theme in the US.

It's funny you should say that you were "so glad to be right back in the USA" because my muscles tighten and my teeth grind every time I disembark at JFK airport. Unlike any other country, JFK is filthy, security and other personnel are rude, unhelpful and are just waste of space. It's probably the most unwelcoming airport in the world.

However, this is not about the airports, the airport is just a sign of things within. I've been to a few places and some I liked better than others, but a few places really called out to me: France and Thailand to name just two. They are very different and they have the charms that draw me to them.

In what ways are you being oppressed here? Seems to me people can pretty much do whatever they want.

I have a very strong sense that your race is Caucasian and your sexual orientation heterosexual. Few Latinos, lesbians and gays, or African-Americans other than Clarence Thomas would be inclined to write such a thing. Nor would the women who are routinely underpaid and battered, as happens in my neighborhood.

jason victor serinus

Well Jason, I don't know how race figures into it. As far as I know, the laws of the land apply to everyone equally. Or at least, that's the goal. Which is not to say there haven't been gross inequities in our history, but these have largely been dealt with.

Well, I'm a minority (Asian) & I don't feel oppressed, but I do live in NYC, the Great Hodgepodge. I basically stick to the big cities by the coasts, because I find them to be most open about all matters. There's no way I can live in the Bible Belt; too distant from the culture I know & am familiar with. And I find certain remote areas in the rural U.S. still way less tolerant and accepting than the cities.

And that's in Long Island, close to Manhattan! Crikey. It's appalling enough that this dumbass kid stabbed and killed a Ecuadorian immigrant worker, but what's more disturbing is that there was a routine tradition of "Beaner Jumping" among these white high school kids, looking for immigrants to beat up.

The point is, yes, this country is based upon sound principles, but there are pockets of American society in which it is still not entirely safe for minorities to live and function according to their wishes. Not that I have anything against Alabama, but there won't be any likelihood that I'll consider moving my family to some rural community there with 99.9% white population, for example. Just comes down to probabilities. Most of that population will be warm-hearted, hospitable and kind people who would put big city people to shame. But there's a greater chance that there will be degenerates looking to go on their weekly beaner-jumping or chink-jumping or homo-jumping run in that population pool.

Shoot, there's plenty of "pockets of American society" where it's not safe for anybody to live! White, black or green! That's one reason I choose to live in a small town. I think the probabilities are in my favor here. I really think they're in your favor here, too!

Quote: there's a greater chance that there will be degenerates looking to go on their weekly beaner-jumping or chink-jumping or homo-jumping run in that population pool.

sounds to me like prejudice, the exact sort of prejudice you claim to be sheltering your family from, Mr. Mao. I live in a southern town, grew up here. We don't have a stoplight, and the closest store is 30 minutes away.....but the people are kind, down to earth, not concerned about material things..For the life of me, I cant remember ever having seen anyone lynched, road out of town on a rail....

this "the south is more racist" garbage is nothing more than henhouse trash talk....

and folks wonder why we haven't made more progress on the racism front... perpetuation of myths.

Well, I do believe that the majority of the people will be great folks, and that's what I said in my post. But there are those who do engage in degenerate behaviors vs. minorities, i.e. those guys practicing "beaner jumping." Those incidents tend to happen in rural/suburban parts, more so than in the cities. You see any white teenager "beaner jumping" in the Spanish Harlem? Case closed.

As I said, my point is that I'm sticking by what I know, stick with the big cities where there are bigger pools of different minorities, where you feel the racial difference less than you would in some parts of rural America. That's a plain fact, not prejudice. It's weird how sensitive some people are, so trigger-happy in yelling out for reverse racism. Relax.

this "the south is more racist" garbage is nothing more than henhouse trash talk....

I think it was William F. Buckley who said that the difference between Northern and Southern racism is that in the South, whites don't care how close blacks get as long as they don't get up too high. In the North, whites don't care how high up blacks get as long as they don't get too close.

Quote:I think it was William F. Buckley who said that the difference between Northern and Southern racism is that in the South, whites don't care how close blacks get as long as they don't get up too high. In the North, whites don't care how high up blacks get as long as they don't get too close.

Quote:this "the south is more racist" garbage is nothing more than henhouse trash talk....

and folks wonder why we haven't made more progress on the racism front... perpetuation of myths.

I lived in the south in the 50's and 60's and was in desegrated schools most of that time. I was in New England when the Boston schools desegrated in the 70's and saw massively more racisism and violence in that change than I ever encountered in the south. Put another way, northern elites pretended southern racism remained as it was in 1930 while ignoring the much more recent racism found in their own back yards.

Quote:Conservative intellectualism is an oxymoron and WFB was a hiccup in an otherwise smooth ignorance curve.

You just HAD to add fuel to the flame, didn't you???

JIMV, I hear you, man. Racism is everywhere, and it's not some Southern problem. But to clarify, whenever I encounter weird crap in LA or NY, I always feel better knowing that there's a big enough contingent of people of my culture to not feel so isolated and marginalized. I can brush it off. I wouldn't be able to do so in some town in Alabama or Nebraska or that town in Arizona where John McCain gave his concession speech.

I'll give you an example. I used to work as a buyer at a book store in Orange County, near LA. (But that's like, the Bible Belt of LA.) This woman in her 40s came in, and approached the info desk, and asked for some book on Howlin' Wolf. I got really happy b/c I figured she was a fellow music lover, so I got up to help her, but right as I was opening my mouth, she said, oh, no. I need an American to help me because you guys wouldn't know. LOL. And she said it in such a stunningly matter-of-fact way, that the only thing I could do was laugh.

The thing is, people like her probably think racism is something like lynching or calling someone by the N-word. Now, I laughed the incident off, although a few of the booksellers got really PISSED, but I could afford to laugh it off b/c I didn't feel isolated, cut off from my culture & people of my heritage. If the same event happened, though, in some rural American town where I was one of, like, 2 Asians, I would have taken it to heart and it would have really depressed me and made me feel marginalized and alone.

Quote:JIMV, I hear you, man. Racism is everywhere, and it's not some Southern problem. But to clarify, whenever I encounter weird crap in LA or NY, I always feel better knowing that there's a big enough contingent of people of my culture to not feel so isolated and marginalized. I can brush it off. I wouldn't be able to do so in some town in Alabama or Nebraska or that town in Arizona where John McCain gave his concession speech.

You might be surprised. When I lived in NY in the 1980's there were entire vast regions where folk of my color were endangered species without any love or protection at all. When I lived in Long Beach after the Rodney King riots again there were entire regions where one simply did not go. Those large cities made me much more unconfortable as a whole, when I left my safe regions, than any small town I have ever lived in, or for that matter, any 3rd world country outside of the middle east. They also share another big disencentive...solid gun control (ie; they control honest law abiding folk who want guns while letting the barbarians in the populace to practice their violent trades pretty much unhindered)

Racism is everywhere and in every society. It is an individual disease, not a community or regional problem.

Quote:I'll give you an example. I used to work as a buyer at a book store in Orange County, near LA. (But that's like, the Bible Belt of LA.) This woman in her 40s came in, and approached the info desk, and asked for some book on Howlin' Wolf. I got really happy b/c I figured she was a fellow music lover, so I got up to help her, but right as I was opening my mouth, she said, oh, no. I need an American to help me because you guys wouldn't know. LOL. And she said it in such a stunningly matter-of-fact way, that the only thing I could do was laugh.

Let me give you my example...when I lived in Long Beach (1991)I remember a mass shooting in the Vietnamese community in a restaurant in (as I recall) Westminster. 5 folk were killed less than 5 miles from where I lived and the LA times did not even give it page 1. It was what was expected...gangs, minorities, the racism of low expectations. That sort of stuff seldom/never happens in small town USA.

Let me give you my example...when I lived in Long Beach (1991)I remember a mass shooting in the Vietnamese community in a restaurant in (as I recall) Westminster. 5 folk were killed less than 5 miles from where I lived and the LA times did not even give it page 1. It was what was expected...gangs, minorities, the racism of low expectations. That sort of stuff seldom/never happens in small town USA.

I agree. Long Beach was the last so-cal city I lived in before my move to the far northern coast. The gang violence was too rampant - kept having to move out of affordable neighborhoods. But I do miss Belmont Billiards and Jo Jost and the fish market in San Pedro. Had to set priorities for my young family's welfare. It was a major culture clash- but I sure got used to NO traffic, NO waiting in lines at the post office, DMV or grocery stores and NO pollution. Everywhere you go in town you run into someone you know. It breeds civility into the citizenry.

Quote:It's on America's tortured browThat Mickey Mouse has grown up a cowNow the workers have struck for fame'Cause Lennon's on sale againSee the mice in their million hordesFrom Ibiza to the Norfolk BroadsRule Britannia is out of boundsTo my mother, my dog, and clownsBut the film is a sadd'ning bore'Cause I wrote it ten times or moreIt's about to be writ againAs I ask you to focus on

SailorsFighting in the dance hallOh man!Look at those cavemen goIt's the freakiest showTake a look at the lawmanBeating up the wrong guyOh man!Wonder if he'll ever knowHe's in the best selling showIs there life on Mars?

Thanks for the Bowie quote- saw him on the Station To Station Tour and loved his tortured yearning for meaning in life. It played well against a killer horn and rhythm section.

In this age of grand delusionYou walked into my life out of my dreamsI don't need another changeStill you forced a way into my scheme of thingsYou say we're growingGrowing heart and soul

Let me give you my example...when I lived in Long Beach (1991)I remember a mass shooting in the Vietnamese community in a restaurant in (as I recall) Westminster. 5 folk were killed less than 5 miles from where I lived and the LA times did not even give it page 1. It was what was expected...gangs, minorities, the racism of low expectations. That sort of stuff seldom/never happens in small town USA.

I agree. Long Beach was the last so-cal city I lived in before my move to the far northern coast. The gang violence was too rampant - kept having to move out of affordable neighborhoods. But I do miss Belmont Billiards and Jo Jost and the fish market in San Pedro. Had to set priorities for my young family's welfare. It was a major culture clash- but I sure got used to NO traffic, NO waiting in lines at the post office, DMV or grocery stores and NO pollution. Everywhere you go in town you run into someone you know. It breeds civility into the citizenry.

Long Beach and Oakland are at a statistical tie for the most racially diverse cities in the USA. Now you boys know why I'm on the Community Policing Task Force, Community Policing Advisory Board, and Vice Chair of my Neighborhood Council. We've had three shootings right around the corner in the last couple of months.

Quote:Conservative intellectualism is an oxymoron and WFB was a hiccup in an otherwise smooth ignorance curve.

You just HAD to add fuel to the flame, didn't you???

I hope I am not going to do the same...

Quote:If the same event happened, though, in some rural American town where I was one of, like, 2 Asians, I would have taken it to heart and it would have really depressed me and made me feel marginalized and alone.

I am about as white an anglo as you can imagine, so growing up in England in the 1950s, I was pretty much ignorant of racism other than as an abstract concept. However, when I first visited the US in the summer of 1979, I bought an unlimited-miles Greyhound bus pass and traveled extensively. The midpoint of my odyssey was to visit an old school friend from England who was then teaching English in small town in northern Florida. He took me to a number of social events, including a Democratic Party fund-raising barbecue where the guest of honor was then White House press secretary Jody Powell.

I have to say that the people I met in the South on that trip - I visited Chatanooga, Atlanta, and Dothan, Alabama as well as Florida - were some of the friendliest, most hospitable people I have encountered. But I was puzzled by what I called the "Pause."

Whenever I was introduced to someone new, there was a perceptible pause before they took my proffered hand. I asked my school friend about it."Well," he replied, "you talk with an English accent, which is quite unfamiliar, so you are obviously not a local. So they have to go down the mental check list."

"Check list?"

"Yes. A mental check list. It goes:1) are you black?2) are you Asian?3) are you Jewish?4) are you an obvious homosexual?

"If the answer to those questions is 'no,' then you get the full Southern hospitality treatment. But it does give rise to the "'Pause.'"

I guess you could say that scales fell from my eyes that moment.

My ex-partner in Stereophile Inc, BTW, was a Freedom Rider in the mid-1960s, traveling by bus to Mississippi to help African-Americans get civil rights. I don't know if I would have the courage to do likewise.

Quote:I have to say that the people I met in the South on that trip - I visited Chatanooga, Atlanta, and Dothan, Alabama as well as Florida - were some of the friendliest, most hospitable people I have encountered. But I was puzzled by what I called the "Pause."

Whenever I was introduced to someone new, there was a perceptible pause before they took my proffered hand. I asked my school friend about it."Well," he replied, "you talk with an English accent, which is quite unfamiliar, so you are obviously not a local. So they have to go down the mental check list."

"Check list?"

"Yes. A mental check list. It goes:1) are you black?2) are you Asian?3) are you Jewish?4) are you an obvious homosexual?

"If the answer to those questions is 'no,' then you get the full Southern hospitality treatment. But it does give rise to the "'Pause.'"

I guess you could say that scales fell from my eyes that moment.

You get the same response in the enlightened north as well, it just results in a different response. One is immediately pigeon holed into the apropriate victim group and one is treated as such, as a member of a social quota.

It is still racism, just of a different sort. A member of such groups is treated with kid gloves and a whole set of assumptions arises. I knew well a black conservative when I lived in NYC. His favorite pass time at parties was playing into stereotype with folk who did not know him.

Your question 1.Are you black...check, must be liberal, semi educated and have overcome the hood and speak english poorly. As he was from an upper middle class family, graduated Brown, spoke like WFB, and voted for republicans since Nixon, he really confused folk.

The racism of low expectations and quotas.

I contend racism is universal as to location. In France blacks were traditionally treated far better than blacks in the USA. Now lets talk Arabs....Hated and feared by the population in general. Turks in Germany face massive discrimination, etc. Muslims in geneal in Greece. Almost every society with a significant minority population has the same problem.

Often is is not race but background itself. When I lived in Maine folk from Mass were considered a blight on society. Where I live in Idaho the 'pause' concerns California. If you are an immigrant from there you are considered a pest at best. Once they find I come from elsewhere, a different treatment occurs.

I think what we're talking about ultimately is treatment of "the other" and fear of "the other." It's walling off people who are different. It goes beyond race, since neither Jews nor homosexuals are a race.

The fear is not confined to one area or one nation. It is borderless. But it is NOT universal. Some of us make a concerted effort to treat people as equals, or as sisters and brothers, and not wall people off because of their accents, color of skin, economic status, etc. etc. (Name your ism, it's on the list).

This is a goal is set for myself. I sometimes get in a lot of trouble because I treat bosses as equals rather than authority figures. That is not to say that I do not respect their judgment and expertise. I do. But I try neither to treat anyone as less than, nor accept being treated as such. Of course, I do err...

In my world view, the more one accepts the various part of oneself, including the parts one may not wish to share in public, the more one can tolerate, accept, and respect diversity in others.

Quote:In my world view, the more one accepts the various part of oneself, including the parts one may not wish to share in public, the more one can tolerate, accept, and respect diversity in others. jason

Quote:In my world view, the more one accepts the various part of oneself, including the parts one may not wish to share in public, the more one can tolerate, accept, and respect diversity in others. jason