Snowman Rally cancelled after death of spectator

Reports coming in that a young spectator has been killed on the first stage. Its about 50 miles from me and part of the Scottish Rally Championship. There are a few of my friends on fb up there and I know a few drivers I'll try and find out more.

If you use your brains a little bit when choosing where to spectate it is as dangerous as spectating any other motorsport.

I thought that some time ago. But I´ve seen people getting hurt in a local rally, in a REALLY slow right-left chicane on which the second part was just an acceleration zone given how slow the firt part was, and how easy the left hander was. There was people on the outside (right before the apex, not on the exit) of the second part of the chicane, theoretically a totally safe part of the road miles away from the racing line in a really easy corner. A clueless idiot lost it getting too hard on the throttle, and despite the really low speed he couldn´t correct the minor slide. He speared right and hit those guys at 25-30 km/h. One of them was nearly killed, but he was lucky (if you can call that luck).

There´s no safe piece of road on a rally if you ask me, except for really elevated ground. I know most will call this kneejerk reaction, and won´t like it, but I think safety standards should be raised for rallying, even if it means taking it just a bit further from the fans. Being a mechanical failure or a rookie mistake away from getting killed is not worth.

I thought that some time ago. But I´ve seen people getting hurt in a local rally, in a REALLY slow right-left chicane on which the second part was just an acceleration zone given how slow the firt part was, and how easy the left hander was. There was people on the outside (right before the apex, not on the exit) of the second part of the chicane, theoretically a totally safe part of the road miles away from the racing line in a really easy corner. A clueless idiot lost it getting too hard on the throttle, and despite the really low speed he couldn´t correct the minor slide. He speared right and hit those guys at 25-30 km/h. One of them was nearly killed, but he was lucky (if you can call that luck).

There´s no safe piece of road on a rally if you ask me, except for really elevated ground. I know most will call this kneejerk reaction, and won´t like it, but I think safety standards should be raised for rallying, even if it means taking it just a bit further from the fans. Being a mechanical failure or a rookie mistake away from getting killed is not worth.

Well I exaggerated a bit, without any barriers protecting spetators around the road the potential for these incidents is higher. But still I'm pretty sure most of these fatalities happen because people don't realise where the "safest" spots are.

Well I exaggerated a bit, without any barriers protecting spetators around the road the potential for these incidents is higher. But still I'm pretty sure most of these fatalities happen because people don't realise where the "safest" spots are.

I've seen spectators standing in the run-off-area behind a 90° corner. The part before the corner was a 1 km straight...

I'm marshalling Rally Finland every year and in that job you can really see whats wrong with some of the spectators.

Before I arrive to check spectator positions, you can see:
- People standing next to road outside of corners
- People standing places under road level
- Immediately after jump people standing in ditches next to road

When I see this kind of brainless people, I don´t quit before every single person is in safer position.

Generally is sad to see so many people without any kind of common sense. Only luck has saved from fatal crashes many times even in "the safest rally" in the world.

EDIT* Of course I don´t blame spectators in this case because I dont know the facts yet. I was just referring to previous problems.

I thought that some time ago. But I´ve seen people getting hurt in a local rally, in a REALLY slow right-left chicane on which the second part was just an acceleration zone given how slow the firt part was, and how easy the left hander was. There was people on the outside (right before the apex, not on the exit) of the second part of the chicane, theoretically a totally safe part of the road miles away from the racing line in a really easy corner. A clueless idiot lost it getting too hard on the throttle, and despite the really low speed he couldn´t correct the minor slide. He speared right and hit those guys at 25-30 km/h. One of them was nearly killed, but he was lucky (if you can call that luck).

There´s no safe piece of road on a rally if you ask me, except for really elevated ground. I know most will call this kneejerk reaction, and won´t like it, but I think safety standards should be raised for rallying, even if it means taking it just a bit further from the fans. Being a mechanical failure or a rookie mistake away from getting killed is not worth.

Let's see if I got this right? Right-Left chicane, people standing on the outside of the left-hander, on the apex. So, if someone looses the car in the first corner, they will end up... around the apex of the second corner. I wouldn't consider that safe tbh.

Let's see if I got this right? Right-Left chicane, people standing on the outside of the left-hander, on the apex. So, if someone looses the car in the first corner, they will end up... around the apex of the second corner. I wouldn't consider that safe tbh.

Yep, they were roughly in front of the apex of the second corner, some meters before the apex actually, sort of in the inside of the exit of the first one, which was nearly a hairpin. No one should ever get there, the first corner was really slow, and the second one was just an acceleration zone from there. The only way to mess up the first one was not picking the braking zone right and going straight on to a wall, and once you made the apex it was impossible to lose it, you were nearly stopped and just have to accelerate out of there through a kink. The layout was similar to the Valencia section right before the bridge, really slow right hander (even slower actually) into a left hander kink (the kink was way easier than that).

To simplify, just ignore the kink, no one should ever lose it there, it was just an acceleration zone. Imagine you stand in a right hander hairpin, and you are on the inside well after the apex, with a wall protecting you from someone missing and shortcutting the apex after some weird moment under braking. I don´t think that´s dangerous, anyone with a rally license should be able to exit a 25 km/h hairpin without spearing to the inside after the corner... and they still got hit.

Basic thought should be that anyone can make mistakes at any speed. And it might be techincal problems of all sorts at all times. By having that in the back of the mind, you should be quite safe.

You´re right, we agree 100%. That´s why I said this before:

"There´s no safe piece of road on a rally if you ask me, except for really elevated ground [...] but I think safety standards should be raised for rallying, even if it means taking it just a bit further from the fans. Being a mechanical failure or a rookie mistake away from getting killed is not worth."

Sadly most of the fans (as I did not too long ago) think it´s enough putting yourself in a place where an accident is not likely, like the one in the accident I saw. And some others do have even lower standards, Jyllenberg explained the most common mistakes perfectly.

My buddy was a marshal during Polish rallies. He quit, saying that "he won't take responsibility for life of idiots". I think this sums up the issue quite well.

I would not wish to be a killjoy but I think any motorsport on public roads is madness.

Once a car (or part thereof) is out of control there is no predicting where it will go or when it will stop. Speed is not a factor either - so quite low speed accidents have caused cars to roll several times into the surrounding scenery and not stop until they hit something solid or use up the energy that has propelled them.

If you go to watch motorsport at a track then you have chosen to take your chances. But when it is on public areas with no facilities and with the risk that people with no interest in the event who happen to be in the area might get caught up in an incident it becomes simply wrong.

I would not wish to be a killjoy but I think any motorsport on public roads is madness.

Once a car (or part thereof) is out of control there is no predicting where it will go or when it will stop. Speed is not a factor either - so quite low speed accidents have caused cars to roll several times into the surrounding scenery and not stop until they hit something solid or use up the energy that has propelled them.

If you go to watch motorsport at a track then you have chosen to take your chances. But when it is on public areas with no facilities and with the risk that people with no interest in the event who happen to be in the area might get caught up in an incident it becomes simply wrong.

But if:

A. Spectators are made fully aware that it is a real possibility that they could be killed-and-B. Drivers are made fully aware that it is a real possibility that they might kill somebody

then maybe the same rules apply (i.e you take your chances). However, I think if both of these applied then maybe there would not be a desire for these events.

A. Spectators are made fully aware that it is a real possibility that they could be killed-and-B. Drivers are made fully aware that it is a real possibility that they might kill somebody

then maybe the same rules apply (i.e you take your chances). However, I think if both of these applied then maybe there would not be a desire for these events.

That's why, on every access road into the forest when we are holding rallies, there are huge signs saying "MOTORSPORT IS DANGEROUS. THERE IS A RISK OF INJURY OR DEATH."

Unfortunately, several years ago, there was a spectator killed at one of our rallies. The poor driver was never the same, he and the sport were both persecuted by the government, the courts, lobby groups, you name it...

...all of whom conveniently ignored the fact that the prick was not only spectating illegally (i.e., outside the spectator zone) and dangerously, but HAD BEEN REMOVED FROM THERE TWICE BEFORE ON THE SAME DAY.

I know the driver who was in the accident. It messed him up for years that someone died. Even now that he is rallying again his speed is much less.

That's why, on every access road into the forest when we are holding rallies, there are huge signs saying "MOTORSPORT IS DANGEROUS. THERE IS A RISK OF INJURY OR DEATH."

The more this message gets drilled into spectators' brains, the better. In any motorsport event really, be it on a track or public roads. Too often people can get blasé about the risk, particularly if there hasn't been an incident for a while. No one wants organisers to have to be killjoys, but too often there are idiots who are incapable of working out which places are sensible and which are dangerous.

I thought that some time ago. But I´ve seen people getting hurt in a local rally, in a REALLY slow right-left chicane on which the second part was just an acceleration zone given how slow the firt part was, and how easy the left hander was. There was people on the outside (right before the apex, not on the exit) of the second part of the chicane, theoretically a totally safe part of the road miles away from the racing line in a really easy corner. A clueless idiot lost it getting too hard on the throttle, and despite the really low speed he couldn´t correct the minor slide. He speared right and hit those guys at 25-30 km/h. One of them was nearly killed, but he was lucky (if you can call that luck).

There´s no safe piece of road on a rally if you ask me, except for really elevated ground. I know most will call this kneejerk reaction, and won´t like it, but I think safety standards should be raised for rallying, even if it means taking it just a bit further from the fans. Being a mechanical failure or a rookie mistake away from getting killed is not worth.

Drivers make mistakes, and that doesn't give you the right to call them clueless idiots. In fact, if you get hit in a rally, usually it's not exactly the driver who should be called that.

Drivers make mistakes, and that doesn't give you the right to call them clueless idiots.

If some local prick who thinks he´s ready to compete can´t accelerate from a standstill in a straight line on a dry, flat and not bumpy piece of tarmac, in my book he´s a clueless idiot.

Motorsport is serious stuff, not a game tennis or football, if you´re not ready for it you should stick to have fun on a safe environment like go-karts. Having a car and paying a one day license shouldn´t be enough to be part of one of these local events.

In fact, if you get hit in a rally, usually it's not exactly the driver who should be called that.

There are some truly backward, ill informed and narrow minded points of view here.....

"I wasnt there, have no idea of the exact details of the accident, probably have no idea what surface they were driving on or what the weather was like but in my opinion the driver is clearly a clueless idiot who is barely capable of driving in a straight line and he killed that spectator because of this.

If some local prick who thinks he´s ready to compete can´t accelerate from a standstill in a straight line on a dry, flat and not bumpy piece of tarmac, in my book he´s a clueless idiot.

Motorsport is serious stuff, not a game tennis or football, if you´re not ready for it you should stick to have fun on a safe environment like go-karts. Having a car and paying a one day license shouldn´t be enough to be part of one of these local events.

Sure, most of times. Certainly not this one though.

Everyone, no matter how good, make stupid mistakes. Of course it's much easier to sit back and criticize. There is also a possibility for mechanical failures, making the cars go to unexpected places.You should be smart enough to know it's dangerous to spectate rallies. If you take too much for granted when going, it's not the driver's fault.

I would not wish to be a killjoy but I think any motorsport on public roads is madness.

In a bit of off-topic, Switzerland permits events on public roads but closed circuit racing remains banned.That said, any kid of motorsport has a relative risk of danger for anyone close. Last year we saw the Williams pit garage being engulfed in flames, every year or so a spectator on a paying stand gets killed by a flying wheel, marshals get injuries... it's not a risk free activity.

As sad as it is we must all refrain from knee-jerk reactions and look at it rationally, if there is anything that went wrong, correct it, but we should wait for a more accurate conclusion.

Everyone, no matter how good, make stupid mistakes. Of course it's much easier to sit back and criticize. There is also a possibility for mechanical failures, making the cars go to unexpected places.You should be smart enough to know it's dangerous to spectate rallies. If you take too much for granted when going, it's not the driver's fault.

You should never take it for granted that people know about the dangers either. There are plenty of people who will be attending for the first time, possibly because it's just happening nearby and they may have no knowledge whatsoever of the sport or the dangers.

In a bit of off-topic, Switzerland permits events on public roads but closed circuit racing remains banned.That said, any kid of motorsport has a relative risk of danger for anyone close. Last year we saw the Williams pit garage being engulfed in flames, every year or so a spectator on a paying stand gets killed by a flying wheel, marshals get injuries... it's not a risk free activity.

As sad as it is we must all refrain from knee-jerk reactions and look at it rationally, if there is anything that went wrong, correct it, but we should wait for a more accurate conclusion.

Didn't realise they allowed road events. I thought all motorsports were banned.

Count over the last, lets say 25 years. How many people have spectated at rallies across the world ?Millions.

How many died ?

very few.

Each incident is very sad and genuine accidents do happen.Yes, some people stand in silly places, but millions don't.

To say there shouldn't be events on public roads and/or stopping spectating is just foolish.Spectators are clearly advised there is a risk to their well being. They are also told to obey the marshals, as they are only there for everyone's safety.

If some local prick who thinks he´s ready to compete can´t accelerate from a standstill in a straight line on a dry, flat and not bumpy piece of tarmac, in my book he´s a clueless idiot.

You make it sound like anyone can just turn up to a rally and take park.If a "local prick" turned up at a rally and tried to compete he'd be told to go on a course in order to get his MSA licence, the course would teach him hoe to drive safely and responsibly. If the aforementioned "local prick" can't accelerate in a straight line he wouldn't be awarded his MSA licence. If a driver was seen to be behaving in a manner that may cause unnecessary danger to himself, other competitors or spectators he could be banned from the event by the clerk of the course, possibly future events too.

You make it sound like anyone can just turn up to a rally and take park.If a "local prick" turned up at a rally and tried to compete he'd be told to go on a course in order to get his MSA licence, the course would teach him hoe to drive safely and responsibly. If the aforementioned "local prick" can't accelerate in a straight line he wouldn't be awarded his MSA licence. If a driver was seen to be behaving in a manner that may cause unnecessary danger to himself, other competitors or spectators he could be banned from the event by the clerk of the course, possibly future events too.

I make it sound like that because that´s it.

I don´t know where you live, but all you need here is to pay your license (annual around 180 E, one event license around 30 E) and some basic car and equipment requirements (extinguishers, backets, antiroll, fire proof overalls). So all you need is some bucks. That´s it. And driver´s standards are just appalling.

Everyone, no matter how good, make stupid mistakes. Of course it's much easier to sit back and criticize. There is also a possibility for mechanical failures, making the cars go to unexpected places.You should be smart enough to know it's dangerous to spectate rallies. If you take too much for granted when going, it's not the driver's fault.

I know something even easier: stay home if you´re not ready. I´m road cyclist and I wouldn´t want someone without any experience riding in a big pack alongside. Anyone has the right to try and compete in whatever they like, but there are some standards that should be met. And sadly that´s not the case for local rally events. And let´s not talk about classic car´s rallyes, they´re supposed to be a parade and they NEVER end up being just that here.

"I wasnt there, have no idea of the exact details of the accident, probably have no idea what surface they were driving on or what the weather was like but in my opinion the driver is clearly a clueless idiot who is barely capable of driving in a straight line and he killed that spectator because of this.

Seriously, go have another read. You need it big time. As you look the TL;DR kind of guy, I´ll make a quick summary for you: I didn´t say a word about the OP incident basically because I don´t know the event, noone knows the details, etc. I talked about an incident I DID see in a local rally, and no one got killed in that one.

One death is one too many, however, since 1990, there have been 3 spectator fatalities in the UK.
Otterburn 2000, Harry Flatters on Epynt in 2009, and yesterday in Scotland.

Motorsport is dangerous, you attend at your own risk! Organisers take all precautions necessary, and are quite often dependant of the number of Marshals available. Short of banning spectators, there will always be a risk.

I think you'll find Kosmic was quoting somebody, theyr'e not his views.

One death is one too many, however, since 1990, there have been 3 spectator fatalities in the UK. Otterburn 2000, Harry Flatters on Epynt in 2009, and yesterday in Scotland.

Motorsport is dangerous, you attend at your own risk! Organisers take all precautions necessary, and are quite often dependant of the number of Marshals available. Short of banning spectators, there will always be a risk.

I think you'll find Kosmic was quoting somebody, theyr'e not his views.

Wasn't there someone killed on the tour of Mull a few years ago to? Or was that a codriver I forget.

Skinnyguy we are talking about an incident in the Scottish Rally Championship and the drivers are all properly licensed. The snowman rally takes place on forest roads during a scottish winter, While it wasn't actually snowing it had been raining so the gravel forestry roads would be slippy as hell. its not uncommon for cars to go off at all on this rally and these are drivers that know what they are doing.

You should never take it for granted that people know about the dangers either. There are plenty of people who will be attending for the first time, possibly because it's just happening nearby and they may have no knowledge whatsoever of the sport or the dangers.

But still, I don't find it right to call a driver clueless idiot for a mistake. It's not his responsibility to take care of the spectators, and it's not like he's going to aim for them on purpose.

But still, I don't find it right to call a driver clueless idiot for a mistake. It's not his responsibility to take care of the spectators, and it's not like he's going to aim for them on purpose.

I agree, and I didn't. But I don't think it is sensible to assume that the spectators understand the risks. I also wonder if it were taken to court and proven that the driver knew there were spectators in an unsafe position and did not slow down whether he would have to share the responsibility.

Ultimately if should be down to the organisers to ensure all spectators are in a safe position, but how easy is that to achieve on a rally course?

I agree, and I didn't. But I don't think it is sensible to assume that the spectators understand the risks. I also wonder if it were taken to court and proven that the driver knew there were spectators in an unsafe position and did not slow down whether he would have to share the responsibility.

Ultimately if should be down to the organisers to ensure all spectators are in a safe position, but how easy is that to achieve on a rally course?

As a driver you rarely even notice spectators.

While the organisers move spectators from dangerous places the onus is on the spectators to stand somewhere safe, especially on gravel rallies where access is poor and spectators are free to move around the forests

While the organisers move spectators from dangerous places the onus is on the spectators to stand somewhere safe, especially on gravel rallies where access is poor and spectators are free to move around the forests

This is where I disagree as that assumes that all spectators understand where the danger areas are. That's a very dangerous assumption to make as many simple have no idea of why certain areas are more dangerous than others.

At the same time as this accident, down in Purley, Surrey, a car mounted the pavement and killed a pedestrian. But this story only attracted local news coverage, not national news bulletins. I wonder why? I reckon you are safer spectating on a rally than walking down a busy high street pavement.

At the same time as this accident, down in Purley, Surrey, a car mounted the pavement and killed a pedestrian. But this story only attracted local news coverage, not national news bulletins. I wonder why? I reckon you are safer spectating on a rally than walking down a busy high street pavement.

Exactly!

450 people die every year in America by falling out of bed.20 die a year playing high school american football (that one shocked me)

Both far greater numbers than those who loose their lives by standing in a stupid place at a rally....

While the organisers move spectators from dangerous places the onus is on the spectators to stand somewhere safe, especially on gravel rallies where access is poor and spectators are free to move around the forests

While the organisers move spectators from dangerous places the onus is on the spectators to stand somewhere safe, especially on gravel rallies where access is poor and spectators are free to move around the forests

Just a point - most rally supporters seem to be saying that the spactator should listen to marshalls and use use common sense in finding a safe place to spectate. But is it wise to expect spectators to always know where it is safe to spectate? To understand quite what could happen? And appreciate the real risks they are taking and being put at by others?

I expect howls of derision from rally supporters but urge you to think about it.

I don't know about other spectators, but I try and get to my chosen spot about 45 mins before the first car. Then, I imagine if a car went off nearby. Am I safe? Behind the tree line? High above the stage?

Each ticket/ programme has diagrams of were not to stand: box junctions, outside of corners, etc

Since the fatality in Epynt in 2009, I've actually changed how I watch there. From Devils/Deers Leap up to Barton's and the Llandeilo Fan Triangle it's seriously quick - with a few jumps thrown in. If a car loses it there, then you've no chance. They've even moved the spectator tape back another 20-40 yards, yet you still get speccies and photographers in stupid places.

Nowhere is safe - spectators and, more importantly, those who feel spectators should be protected from themselves, should all just accept that. Putting yourself at risk should not be a concern to other people. Only putting others at risk should be.

Nowhere is safe - spectators and, more importantly, those who feel spectators should be protected from themselves, should all just accept that. Putting yourself at risk should not be a concern to other people. Only putting others at risk should be.

Fingers crossed that should you ever unknowingly put yourself in a dangerous situation that others around can point out your error rather than taking your selfish attitude.

With some caution one can really push down the odds to almost nothing. Of course such skillfull drivers as well as a good amount of luck improve them a lot even if **** happens. Fewer car failures and IMHO more common sense do so as well.