Star Wars: The Old Republic’s lead writer on good Sith, evil Jedi

In the upcoming Star Wars MMO The Old Republic, you can become either a Jedi …

It's hard to show off an MMO title within the constraints of a trade show, so I rarely feel like I walk away from such meetings with a good idea of what the game is actually like to play. It was stressed to the press during the game's latest demo that this is a game built on a strong story, and you can play your character however you'd like. In one scene we saw the ramifications of both being merciful and executing an NPC. The idea of an online game with such a rich world and story is appealing.

But what happens if I'm a Jedi who consistently does the wrong thing? Will I ever fall and join the ranks of the Sith? I wanted to find out.

Building a culture versus striking a pose

I sat down with Daniel Erickson, the lead writer of The Old Republic to figure out how your decisions affect your class and your standing among the Jedi or the Sith. If I'm playing a Jedi, is it possible to do so many evil acts that I turn into a Sith character? The movies present the slide as being something chosen by your actions and motivations, but in The Old Republic things are very different.

So what happens if I'm unfailingly evil as a Jedi? Do the Sith try to recruit me? "No, and the reason is... this is a hard one to look at because we made them entire cultures," Erickson told Ars. "The Sith we see [in the movies], even Vader, are not actually Sith, they are harkening back to a tradition from years ago—they are fallen Jedi. The Sith in our game are actually Sith; they are from a different empire that was almost wiped out of existence by the Jedi."

We're getting into some seriously nerdy territory here, but as a Star Wars fan I'm right in my element. I've never thought about it this way: the Sith in the movies were mostly given Jedi training first, and then fell to the dark side and began to call themselves Sith Lords. It's an anachronism more than a title at that point.

"I always take it back to the World War 2 analogy: if you were a very evil British soldier in World War 2, you wouldn't join the Nazis; you were torturing them in the basement," Erickson explained. "You're a bad man, but that doesn't mean you're going to leave your country. You're going to do what you're trying to do in the worst possible way."

The thing is, this goes the other way as well. "This is what's really hard for people to wrap their heads around sometimes. A light-side Sith is going to try to make his horrible screwed-up country better," Erickson said. "A Sith is given, by his society, unlimited power to do whatever he wants unless a stronger Sith can stop him. So a light-side Sith warrior can walk out there and protect the Imperial people, because he thinks the other side is crazy."

I asked him if this is the logical progression to "might makes right," and he nodded enthusiastically. "Exactly, and in our game, it could actually be right." It's a subtle thing: the Sith and the Jedi aren't the good and bad guys; instead, it's more of a cultural distinction this far back in the Star Wars timeline. So you can be a good man and still fight the Jedi, and you can try to end the Sith through evil means. The choice is in your hands, as it should be in games of this scope.

So, in the timeline of the movies are there any extant Sith? And he said culture, not race -- so I'm guessing that at the time it existed the Sith had various members from different races/planets that formed a common culture. Also meaning that you wouldn't be able to pick them out by appearance, any more so than you can a Jedi. Right?

So during the timeline of the movies we really couldn't be sure that we have or have not seen a Sith, and I expect the 3rd trilogy will address some type of resurgence.

I'm not a die hard but I only remember 3 siths : Emperor Palpatine, Darth Maul, and Darth Vader. Vader had jedi training, is there canon to say either of the others did?

Darth Tyranus, aka Count Dooku, was also a fallen Jedi. He was Yoda's padawan, making him part of the chain of apprenticeship in the movies. Yoda taught Dooku, who taught Qui-Gon Jinn, who taught Obi-Wan Kenobi, who taught both Anakin Skywalker and Luke Skywalker. Luke then completed his training under Yoda, tying him back to the beginning of the chain.

So, in the timeline of the movies are there any extant Sith? And he said culture, not race -- so I'm guessing that at the time it existed the Sith had various members from different races/planets that formed a common culture. Also meaning that you wouldn't be able to pick them out by appearance, any more so than you can a Jedi. Right?

So during the timeline of the movies we really couldn't be sure that we have or have not seen a Sith, and I expect the 3rd trilogy will address some type of resurgence.

The Sith were largely wiped out when the rule of two was established. There is ever only two Sith lords a master and his apprentice, this is to ensure that they can never be betrayed by other Sith lords at the moment of their ascendance which is what largely kept the Sith from winning.

I think that's borne out by the canon. There was the Good Sith Lollipop, for instance.

I hate you, and you owe me a keyboard.

@MJ: You beat me to the wookieepedia link.

ClownRazer wrote:

So, in the timeline of the movies are there any extant Sith? And he said culture, not race -- so I'm guessing that at the time it existed the Sith had various members from different races/planets that formed a common culture. Also meaning that you wouldn't be able to pick them out by appearance, any more so than you can a Jedi. Right?

Check the SWTOR website and the Star Wars Wiki for the whole story, but... Originally the 'pureblood' Sith were a ancient force-sensitive species from Korriban. Eventually their culture and practices were taken up by outsiders with malicious intent, who interbred with the Sith species. Eventually term came to represent an entire empire, and had almost nothing to do with the original horned & red-skinned species.

In the game, you'll be able to play many species on the Sith side. Some, like the blue-skinned Chiss, will be more likely to side with the empire, while for other species (e.g. humans) you may not be able to tell the alignment just by looking (well, armor set aside) -- leading to some cool trickery & backstabbing, I hope

So, in the timeline of the movies are there any extant Sith? And he said culture, not race -- so I'm guessing that at the time it existed the Sith had various members from different races/planets that formed a common culture. Also meaning that you wouldn't be able to pick them out by appearance, any more so than you can a Jedi. Right?

So during the timeline of the movies we really couldn't be sure that we have or have not seen a Sith, and I expect the 3rd trilogy will address some type of resurgence.

The original Sith race, which inhabited Korriban, was wiped out many thousand years ago in the movies, during the time of The Old Republic. And you could really easily pick them out by appearance as they seldom acknowledged other species as equal to them, unless they showed a high potential for using the dark side of the Force. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_(species)

In the timeline of the Skywalker family (the movies) no real Sith is seen as they are already extinct. What we see is merely Fallen Jedi of different kinds or seperate followers of a long extinct culture. In the TOR intro you can see a real Sith. He is the one whom is killed by his apprentice (who seems to be a non-Sith follower) at the end of the battle. If you want to see other real Siths reading the KotOR comics is probably the only way, as these are almost the only material that covers them.

mehhhn the more I get to know about this game the more excited I get about it. I'm not even really a big Star Wars fans but I played Knights of the Old Republic and it remains one of the best gaming experiences I've ever had to date. I've never played an MMO but this may very well be the MMO where I just immerse myself and play the hell out of it. Hope it lives up to the hype.

I'm not a die hard but I only remember 3 siths : Emperor Palpatine, Darth Maul, and Darth Vader. Vader had jedi training, is there canon to say either of the others did?

OK, I'm not a huge fan, but my understanding (from browsing the Wookiepedia, awhile back) is that the Sith were an actual race (non-human) that had the force. A fallen Jedi was pushed out and came to Sith home world and was powerful enough to lord over them, therefore you get "Sith Lords" (get it?). Eventually, the human fallen (dark) Jedi interbred with the Sith and the culture developed separately. There were wars among the Sith and eventually one of them figured that it just wasn't going to work unless there were only two of them (a master and an apprentice) and that tradition was passed down, even after the Sith died off...or, something like that.

So, somebody went to the trouble of building a back story to the movies that involved previous civilizations going back many millennia. Also, there seems to be narratives for what happens after "The Return of the Jedi".

I'm actually a little embarrassed that I know so much, but that's what you get surfing the interwebs late at night.

I'm not a die hard but I only remember 3 siths : Emperor Palpatine, Darth Maul, and Darth Vader. Vader had jedi training, is there canon to say either of the others did?

Darth Tyranus, aka Count Dooku, was also a fallen Jedi. He was Yoda's padawan, making him part of the chain of apprenticeship in the movies. Yoda taught Dooku, who taught Qui-Gon Jinn, who taught Obi-Wan Kenobi, who taught both Anakin Skywalker and Luke Skywalker. Luke then completed his training under Yoda, tying him back to the beginning of the chain.

"...unlimited power to do whatever he wants unless a stronger Sith can stop him."

I don't know anything about Sith, so correct me about their fantasy culture if I'm wrong, but I don't see how there would exist (for any length of time) "good" Sith with a culture like that. It sounds like a perpetual dictatorship that the culture thinks is the best/right form of government? For me justice and goodness are extensions of the rejection of wielding/taking power just because you can. There is no such thing as "good" people overthrowing a dictatorship only to institute their own dictatorship, that's just the horrors of "evil" fighting for power.

I'm not a die hard but I only remember 3 siths : Emperor Palpatine, Darth Maul, and Darth Vader. Vader had jedi training, is there canon to say either of the others did?

Darth Tyranus, aka Count Dooku, was also a fallen Jedi. He was Yoda's padawan, making him part of the chain of apprenticeship in the movies. Yoda taught Dooku, who taught Qui-Gon Jinn, who taught Obi-Wan Kenobi, who taught both Anakin Skywalker and Luke Skywalker. Luke then completed his training under Yoda, tying him back to the beginning of the chain.

This sounds like a rationalization for not wanting to implement potentially complex faction relations to me.

Yes, the Sith were a race, and the Sith was an empire, and it was one that was largely dominated by dark-side force users. Later fallen Jedi identifying themselves as Sith Lords were adopting the term because the Lords of the Sith were powerful dark-side force users. Were they actually Sith? Maybe, they at least identified with the leaders and embraced their traditions.

So yeah, there's truth there, but...what are the odds of a light-side Sith force user rising up the ranks? Not bloody good, they'd be more likely to be slaughtered for being weaklings. What are the odds of a dark-side Jedi staying in their ranks? Not very bloody good - remember, these are people that can sense evil/good to some degree. You can't hide that indefinitely in that company.

IMO, it sounds like they didn't want to have to handle what happens if you play your Jedi evil - kicking him out of the order, making him a social reject, perhaps 'deleting his mind' like they did to Revan in KOTOR, or whatever - or what happens if you play your Sith force-users good - probably a quick death at the hands of your comrades who see you as a weakling undeserving of power.

That being said, a member of the Sith empire that isn't force-using could quite likely be a good person, a member of the Republic could quite likely be a bad person, but that doesn't translate to well to the force users. Yes, a good member of the Sith military may be making sure his republic prisoners get fed without telling the bosses, an evil member of the Republic military may be torturing Sith prisoners, but a Sith force-user showing sympathy openly while his compatriots are torturing a Republic prisoner is going to be missing limbs in short order, and a Jedi that advocates torturing a Sith prisoner is going to be reprimanded and/or thrown out of the order, if he persists.

A light-sided force-user that manages to survive in the Sith turf isn't likely to be openly fighting - they're likely to be quietly helping the underlings when they can and trying not to get themselves chopped up - they may resist the Republic as invaders, but they also have to watch themselves closely to avoid being killed by their own side.

A dark-sided force user that survives in Republic turf is more likely, and won't be as actively hunted, and may be opposed to the Sith as a threat to his own personal power, so that isn't as much of a stretch...but they still need to be somewhat cautious - the Jedi aren't likely to indefinitely tolerate a Sith in their turf that is out cutting down as many civvies as they are enemy soldiers, for instance.

These would be complex faction relations and motivations to implement, and my guess is they just don't want to do it and came up with a rationalization for it.

I'm not a die hard but I only remember 3 siths : Emperor Palpatine, Darth Maul, and Darth Vader. Vader had jedi training, is there canon to say either of the others did?

OK, I'm not a huge fan, but my understanding (from browsing the Wookiepedia, awhile back) is that the Sith were an actual race (non-human) that had the force. A fallen Jedi was pushed out and came to Sith home world and was powerful enough to lord over them, therefore you get "Sith Lords" (get it?). Eventually, the human fallen (dark) Jedi interbred with the Sith and the culture developed separately. There were wars among the Sith and eventually one of them figured that it just wasn't going to work unless there were only two of them (a master and an apprentice) and that tradition was passed down, even after the Sith died off...or, something like that.

So, somebody went to the trouble of building a back story to the movies that involved previous civilizations going back many millennia. Also, there seems to be narratives for what happens after "The Return of the Jedi".

I'm actually a little embarrassed that I know so much, but that's what you get surfing the interwebs late at night.

That about sums it up. The movies out now cover that era long after TOR, and thus the Sith in that era (rebellion) are all just jedi who have fallen to the dark side and follow the path of the Sith as they became (a sect sorta) and not the race of people known as the Sith who, like the Humans, did not have a majority of force users. They were normal everyday people.

So this game is based on TOR, which was long before the battle of Yavin, which sets the dates for the current movies. The dates on Star Wars are either BBY or ABY (After Battle of Yavin, or Before Battle of Yavin). And in this era of the Star Wars universe there existed the race (not the fallen Jedi) known as Sith. Mandalorians are in there too, but I think around this time their race was mostly wiped out and the remainder scattered among the galaxy. So you can still come across Mandalorian warriors who mostly work as mercenaries.

And BTW, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE! Introduce Mandalorian as a playable race in the game...PLEASE!

The Sith race were not 'evil' in the sense. They were conquerors and warriors, who happened to prefer the dark side over light side. It was preference and not necessarily based in evil. They considered the dark side to be more powerful that the light side. That said, I guess you could have people of the sith race who are 'good' and want to do good things. However, the Sith dark force users were not a majority in the sith empire. just like the Jedi in the republic, they were a minority and a person who was force sensetive could join the sith academies that trained in the use and development of their force skills. Just like in the Republic, the jedi were a minority and had their academies.

I was wondering about that. What we know of the Sith is that they are NOT EVIL; they are just like any other race. Jedi descended on them, tried to wipe them out, and took the name "Sith" when the jedi turned evil. I was hoping the game would follow real Sith and not the quazie Sith AKA dark jedi.

I'm not a die hard but I only remember 3 siths : Emperor Palpatine, Darth Maul, and Darth Vader. Vader had jedi training, is there canon to say either of the others did?

Darth Tyranus, aka Count Dooku, was also a fallen Jedi. He was Yoda's padawan, making him part of the chain of apprenticeship in the movies. Yoda taught Dooku, who taught Qui-Gon Jinn, who taught Obi-Wan Kenobi, who taught both Anakin Skywalker and Luke Skywalker. Luke then completed his training under Yoda, tying him back to the beginning of the chain.

I interpret this to mean that everything was Yoda's fault.

An interesting interpretation; having just re-watched the movies, there were many times when Yoda could have stepped in with the right bit of wisdom and likely stopped the whole thing. But he's mortal, and fallible, and I think that makes his character that much stronger. And his final act, training Luke even though he objected, was instrumental in redeeming Vader, defeating the Sith (for a little while anyway), and eventually founding the New Jedi Order.

aRMeD has a good point: a bad Jedi would probably be kicked out of the order, but he might still act on behalf of the Republic and/or his own benefit. A good Sith might be possible, though it can, and should, be hard to do--good acts would often be seen as weak acts, so they might have their authority challenged more often.