... Anyhow, I do not have great faith in anything an apostate says. ...

So if what Whitmer says is favorable to the position of the LDS church headquartered in Salt Lake City he is credible as a witness. But if what Whitmer says is not favorable to the position of the LDS church headquartered in Salt Lake City he is not credible as a witness.

Wouldn't it be simpler just to say "The church is true" in response to anything a critic says?

_________________Zadok:I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.Maksutov:That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.

"As they ought to do to me," sound like FAIR is correct. It sounds like he was concerned about physically separating for safety. Anyhow, I do not have great faith in anything an apostate says. However, he could have received great power and fame by stating that the whole witness thing was a fraud, but he didn't! Consider that! Also, consider all the other witnesses!

You are not reading the words within the context of the entire Address to Believers in Christ.

Besides this quote which Darth has noted in which it makes mention God called him out in the same voice as per the Book of Mormon If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to "separate myself from among the Latter Day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, should it be done unto them."

I make no farther statements now; but suffice it to say that my persecutions, for trying to show them their errors, became of such a nature that I had to leave the Latter Day Saints; and, as I rode on horseback out of Far West, in June, 1838, the voice of God from heaven spake to me as I have stated above. I was called out to hold the authority which God gave to me.

David Whitmer also says the following in the same address a paragraph or 2 later:

Many of the Reorganized Church have wondered why I have stood apart from them. Brethren, I here will tell you why. God commanded me by his own voice to stand apart from you. Many of you think that I have desire to lead -- to lead a church that believe as I do. I have no such desire. A one-man leader to the church is not the teachings of Christ. After Brother Joseph was killed, many came to me and importuned me to come out and be their leader; but I refused. With these statements, so you will understand me, I will proceed to show you how the heads of the church went into one error after another. I followed them into many errors in doctrine, which the Lord has since shown me, and which errors I have confessed and repented of, and will speak of in this pamphlet.

>>>Concerning the question of my authority to administer in the ordinances of the Church of Christ; I have this to say; As I have stated, I was called out to hold the authority that God gave to me.

Note he wasn't being persecuted by the Reorganized Church quite the opposite, he was asked by some to lead it. According to him God called him out and didn't want him joining/leading that church. According to him God does not want any men to be his mouth piece. According to David Whitmer when men speak for God ..which both his old LDS church did via Joseph Smith and the new Reorganized one did...they lead followers into error.

He makes it clear in the address that the reason God spoke to him..was because the LDS church was in error over a number of issues. That was the point of the address.

You write: "Anyhow, I do not have great faith in anything an apostate says.

You are picking and choosing when to conclude David Whitmer is a reliable credible witness and when he is a liar..with regards to God speaking to him. He is a credible reliable witness when he says God spoke to him and it is in accord with your religious faith beliefs ..but he's a liar when it goes against your beliefs.

... Anyhow, I do not have great faith in anything an apostate says. ...

Irony at its best. Joseph Smith himself was an apostate from the Methodist church.

- VRDRC

_________________In the anointed we find a whole class of supposedly ‘thinking people’ who do remarkably little thinking about substance and a great deal of verbal expression. - Dr. Thomas Sowell, Harvard, Columbia, University of Chicago

... Anyhow, I do not have great faith in anything an apostate says. ...

Irony at its best. Joseph Smith himself was an apostate from the Methodist church.

- VRDRC

In Joseph Smith's time near every member was apostate. And became apostle, prophet, seer and revelator.

From http://www.LDS.org/churchhistory/presid ... pic=events(LDS Home - Church History - History of the Church - Presidents of the Church - John Taylor - Significant Events) :Historical Summary1808 November 1 Born in Milnthorpe, Westmorland, England, to James Taylor and Agnes Taylor.1819 Age 11 Moved with family to Hale (near Milnthorpe), where he helped work on a small farm left to his father by an uncle.1822 Age 14 Apprenticed as a cooper (barrel maker) in Liverpool, England. Within a year, his master's business failed and he returned home.1824 Age 16 Left the Church of England and became a Methodist.1825 Age 17 Became Methodist “exhorter,” or lay preacher. Received a strong impression that he would go to America to preach the gospel.1832 Age 24 Left England for Canada and commenced preaching.1833–1836 Age 25–28 Served as preacher in the Methodist Church in Toronto, Canada.1836 May 9 Age 27 Baptized by Parley P. Pratt.1836–1837 Age 28–29 Served as the Church's presiding officer in Canada.1837 Age 29 Moved to Far West, Missouri.1837 March Age 28 Met the Prophet Joseph Smith in Kirtland, Ohio.1838 December 19 Age 30 Ordained an Apostle at Far West, Missouri, by Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball under the direction of Joseph Smith, who was in Liberty Jail.

Two year from apostatizing from Methodist Church to become an apostle...

One beau ideal. There is a Hungarian saying about changing longjohn and conviction at once.

...........................................Today, most of the converts around the world are apostates from different christian churches.1. Please evaluate the word "christian" in the broadest sense2. Interestingly, one can find very little from muslims, jews and buddhists.

_________________- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei

_________________“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

_________________“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

The problem with labeling David Whitmer as an apostate is that it is impossible. David Whitmer received authority directly from God. I believe David Whitmer when he says that God told him such-and-such thing. Plus, David Whitmer assures us in An Address to All Believers in Christ that the Holy Ghost will confirm that he (David) is telling the truth. So I am convinced that he was not apostate. It was the Latter-day Saints who went apostate. He is a witness for that, just like he is a witness that the Book of Mormon is true.

You guys are only making assumptions to agree with what you want to believe! I repeat, do you know exactly when David received that "revelation" from God telling him to separate?! If you really know what you are talking about, then just give me the date of the receipt of that "revelation"!

You guys are only making assumptions to agree with what you want to believe!

No irony to see here...move along...

_________________“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

You guys are only making assumptions to agree with what you want to believe! I repeat, do you know exactly when David received that "revelation" from God telling him to separate?! If you really know what you are talking about, then just give me the date of the receipt of that "revelation"!

So I'm assuming by this that you have the date and the revelation for the restoration of the higher priesthood? Hint: what's in the D&C is neither.

On a more appropriate note: recording personal revelations hs never been standard practice. Only revelations that affect the whole church have been routinely recorded (or made up, whole cloth, to solve a later problem).

_________________(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.

You guys are only making assumptions to agree with what you want to believe! I repeat, do you know exactly when David received that "revelation" from God telling him to separate?! If you really know what you are talking about, then just give me the date of the receipt of that "revelation"!

An Address to All Believers in Christ, Chapter 2

......and, as I rode on horseback out of Far West, in June, 1838, the voice of God from heaven spake to me as I have stated above. I was called out to hold the authority which God gave to me.

Now tell me the date of the restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood. Or the date of the First Vision.

Hogwash, MCB! Yea, Darth, as he was riding out from far west, he received the alleged revelation to separate from the saints, and later he taught many apostate things! Judas may have taught many good things too, and Baalam also, before they became apostates, but can you really trust what someone says AFTER they become an apostate?! I say NO. However, it is interesting to me that he never denied the same witness that all the others had. He could have, but if he had, he would have lost credibility.

Hogwash, MCB! Yea, Darth, as he was riding out from far west, he received the alleged revelation to separate from the saints, and later he taught many apostate things! Judas may have taught many good things too, and Baalam also, before they became apostates, but can you really trust what someone says AFTER they become an apostate?! I say NO. However, it is interesting to me that he never denied the same witness that all the others had. He could have, but if he had, he would have lost credibility.

Ummm... not a believer in the Atonement, I see.

_________________(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.

Hogwash, MCB! Yea, Darth, as he was riding out from far west, he received the alleged revelation to separate from the saints, and later he taught many apostate things! Judas may have taught many good things too, and Baalam also, before they became apostates, but can you really trust what someone says AFTER they become an apostate?! I say NO. However, it is interesting to me that he never denied the same witness that all the others had. He could have, but if he had, he would have lost credibility.

He wasn't apostate. He received authority from God. I believe David Whitmer's statements about what God tells him.

And David Whitmer started another church in opposition to the Latter-day Saints because of his powerful testimony of the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon remained true even though Joseph Smith and his followers fell away from the true gospel. David Whitmer is a powerful witness of the apostasy of Joseph Smith.

So Darth, you are telling me that you believe the one apostate, against all of the other witnesses?! I take it that you are a member of some offshoot cult of the LDS which has no hope of filling the whole earth as Daniel prophesied, am I correct?