Welcome

Welcome to the POZ/AIDSmeds Community Forums, a round-the-clock discussion area for people with HIV/AIDS, their friends/family/caregivers, and
others concerned about HIV/AIDS. Click on the links below to browse our various forums; scroll down for a glance at the most recent posts; or join in the
conversation yourself by registering on the left side of this page.

Privacy Warning: Please realize that these forums are open to all, and are fully searchable via Google and other search engines. If you are HIV positive
and disclose this in our forums, then it is almost the same thing as telling the whole world (or at least the World Wide Web). If this concerns you, then do not use a
username or avatar that are self-identifying in any way. We do not allow the deletion of anything you post in these forums, so think before you post.

The information shared in these forums, by moderators and members, is designed to complement, not replace, the relationship between an individual and his/her own
physician.

All members of these forums are, by default, not considered to be licensed medical providers. If otherwise, users must clearly define themselves as such.

Forums members must behave at all times with respect and honesty. Posting guidelines, including time-out and banning policies, have been established by the moderators
of these forums. Click here for “Am I Infected?” posting guidelines. Click here for posting guidelines pertaining to all other POZ/AIDSmeds community forums.

We ask all forums members to provide references for health/medical/scientific information they provide, when it is not a personal experience being discussed. Please
provide hyperlinks with full URLs or full citations of published works not available via the Internet. Additionally, all forums members must post information which are
true and correct to their knowledge.

Author
Topic: Sex and condom hate (Read 17161 times)

I have just tested positive on my backpacking trip around the world. A few months ago it was still negative. I talked with my doctor at home (europe) and he said with a cd4 count of 500 i can continue like planned (a few more months) and shouldnt be very worried about my immediate health.

Yeah i feel lonely and sad since i heard my diagnosis a few days ago. Yes i see a mostly grey future as i wont be able to do many things i enjoy. Like travelling unlimited for years or having bb sex. Yeah i know bareback is bad, what did u think got me where i am now?

But you see, i am not a bad person per se. I do care about others to a degree and i wouldnt want to risk the life of others. but..... I just cant deal with condoms. They have always turned me off. I have tried for years to enjoy sex with them. I tried all kinds of condoms, thin, latexfree etc etc

If i get fucked with condom (i am mostly bottom) it either hurts or at bestfeels like a waste of time. It doesnt feel good, it doesnt make me horny or feel good AT ALL.

So recently (before my infection) i have tried to minimize my risk by trying to find the right guys, ask them to not cum inside etc. it worked fine for years and the negative tests just seemed to prove my strategy worked but i guess it was inevitable.

And now what do i do ..

Get used to condoms? It didnt work the first 20 years or so. At the same time i see everyone wanting to fuck me bare ... I guess they all think i am clean cause i look so young and cute? Haha

Should i let them, thinking as a bottom the risk of infecting them is less anyway? Or that its their fault if they fuck a stranger bareback? (Which it is technically, no?)

Yes i could tell them before sex but thats unrealistic. It kills the mood in most men (me included) and it will just lead to frustration and me stop telling it.

I could start going to bareback parties, at least there everyone is probably positive anyway or too stupid to be taken seriously, no?

But the choice of men i will meet there will be a very different one i assume. And i generally like passionate one on one sex with a guy i fancy, just without the condom.

So what should i do REALISTICALLY?

Probably its best to become a monk. Too bad i am spiritually challenged and more the realistic thinking kind. So not sure i will be happy that way.

Btw happy ... I had a hard time finding a boyfriend the last 20 years. I see a very grey future here too, more than ever.

IMO You seem to conceive a lot of things as assumed, that things are done deals, that things are only possible one way, that things are black and white, and that opposites can't exist at the same time.

Maybe its just because of the recent diagnosis. Or maybe you don't see things in tones of grey a part of your character.

If you don't want to deal with condoms, fine. You can still have bareback sex with other HIV+ people.

You do realise that bareback sex brings the risk of other STDS besides HIV. I thought when I got HIV 20 years after NOT having HIV because I was having safe sex, that the small bonus was I could have bareback sex now with other poz guys (im a gay guy) and two years into that experiment, I got HEP C from bareback sex. So, just a warning to you..... Don't be naive and ignorant.

If you go on HAART, when you go on HAART, you can reduce your ability to transmit the virus. Radically. At that point, it is conceivable that an HIV neg lover will be willing to bareback you. Just another option to keep in mind.

What do you do now about being HIV+ and having a butt that could transmit HIV? Well there are four basic questions, my dear.

1) what is morally right in your moral register.

2) what the "general population" considers morally right, if there is such a consensus.

3) what laws apply as to criminal non-disclosure, criminal "exposure" and criminal transmission of HIV in the location where you are having sex.... Time to read up on these.

4) what you understand your partner would want.

Generally my snap opinion is that you need to be on HAART and undetectable, lickity split, otherwise you risk becoming a public health threat. And it would seem to open more options to continue a somewhat modified sex life similiar but not exactly the same as your life to present.

The following sentences have so many issues I can't even go there, this morning, until I've had a few coffees.

1))Should i let them, thinking as a bottom the risk of infecting them is less anyway? 2) Or that its their fault if they fuck a stranger bareback? (Which it is technically, no?)

3) Yes i could tell them before sex but thats unrealistic. It kills the mood in most men (me included) and it will just lead to frustration and me stop telling it.

4) I could start going to bareback parties, at least there everyone is probably positive anyway or too stupid to be taken seriously, no?

5) But the choice of men i will meet there will be a very different one i assume. And i generally like passionate one on one sex with a guy i fancy, just without the condom.

Its gonna take awhile to unpack all that and frankly I'll let other members have a crack at it because you seem a bit self-interested, frankly, rigid, and not all that empathetic with others, and I need to work up enough generosity and patience to start discussing the dozens of issues you throw out. The entire post is a mixture of cheaply dramatic fatalism and bravado.. Do you see it?

Anyway, more later...

Welcome to the forums; I predict you'll get an earful but if you listen you'll get some good advice and if you stick around you might find a few characters here who you could warm up to.

Logged

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

thanks for your reply. I am sorry if i sounded egocentric. Maybe i even am. I try to be honest. In my experience what people say in public and later do in darkrooms is often very different. I try to be honest and upfront although i can see that this might sound egoistic or heartless. Again, maybe i am. But what can i do? pretend i will be a nice condom user ? I have to be realistic.

As for Haart .. I will discuss this with my doctor once I am back home. Since I am travelling atm it will be hard to impossible to get them but yeah once I am on meds i assume I will have less moral problems having bareback sex with guys. Although i read conflicting stuff about this. Some people say one can still infect his partner even if on meds.

It's immoral to have unprotected sex with people and not disclose your status. If you are going to be sexually active you really should be on HAART and try to get undetectable to minimize your threat to others, and also use condoms with HIV-negative people.

I used condoms always and still got infected, probably through a gum problem. Shit happens.

A lot of positive guys want to have unprotected sex but I'm still scared of the threat of other diseases.

Morality is a fluid thing, and I hesitate before calling an act in and of itself immoral.

If a person is on ART and has an UD VL, and the activity he is engaging in is not a risk for HIV in the first place (receptive fellatio for example), is it immoral then? What about kissing?

Thing is, what seems to get misplaced in these discussions is that we are not trying to curtail anyone's sexual expression, whether it be in a mutually monogamous marriage or a gang bang.

We are hopefully trying not to spread a virus. Period.

So let's step away form morality for a moment and look at the science.

Scientifically speaking, there is a strong chance that the OP, with a fairly recent infection, has and might continue to have a high viral load. This is in the blood, semen, and rectal mucosa. As of this moment, he presents a real danger to anyone who tops him bareback.

And yes, tops can get HIV too. Doesn't happen NEARLY as often as bottoming, but the science is solid for the possibility.

What can the OP do to mitigate this?

Obviously, condoms. But he hates those. I assume he has tried latex, polyurethane, and even the "female" condom with the inner ring removed.

I understand the friction issue. Lots of lubrication - and the right lubrication -can mitigate this. But latex is NOT friendly to mucus membranes. That's one of the main reason porn actors in California are campaigning (successfully I notice) against mandatory condoms in porn. After an hour or so of different positions, even the best lube and thinnest latex can cause serious irritation - which, ironically, ups the chance for an STD.

Polyurethane condoms work a lot better, and can be used with oil-based lube as well. Some people note a higher instance of breakage, and some people think it sounds like a plastic grocery bag.

I have no information on the female condom except that the few gay men I know who have used it claim to enjoy it. Your mileage may vary.

But then again, how much of that matters? The OP doesn't like condoms, and won't use them.

OK. Let's work with that.

Here are the options as I see them:

a) serosort. Find pozzies who want to bareback. It's not difficult. And though yes there are maybe a dozen cases of reinfection in recorded history, the spectre of that is so overblown as to be ridiculous. And to the best of my knowledge few if any of these "combined" viruses has resulted in drug resistance or faster disease progression. It is, as far as I am concerned, a non issue.

Yes, you can still get all the other STDs. And with an HIV infection some of them can be pretty brutal. Syphilis, which normally takes YEARS or DECADES to infiltrate the brain as neurosyphilis, can get there in a matter of months if untreated. Diligent testing for other STDs is really a must if you are barebacking with other people outside a mutually monogamous relationship.

B) Get on ART and get undetectable. Take your meds as prescribed. If you do that, then in the absence of other STDs, your viral load should not be an issue in your blood or rectal mucosa or semen.

However, seeing as you state your preference for multiple partners, you need to consider that the Swiss Study and other studies have all noted that the presence of another STD in the genital area (herpes, HPV, Chlamydia, Gonorrhea) can cause a spike in both seminal AND rectal viral loads. That's part of the body's inflammation process. Now none of the studies have shed any light on how HIGH this spike goes, whether it was/is enough to facilitate transmission, or even if the detected viral particles were even viable in the first place.

That is a lot of guessing left to be done there, until science can make those issues clearer.

While it seems fun to pile on the OP for his reluctance to change his lifestyle in order to accommodate his infection, he is only half of the equation here.

It's 2013. And to agree to have unprotected penetrative sex with a partner of unknown status (stating your status doesn't count) is to agree to the possibility of acquiring an STD, including HIV. In a consensual situation, each partner bears the responsibility for his own health.

Yes, people lie. People might not even know their status. People might view their last negative test result as a license to screw with impunity. People are people. But unless this is a rape situation, two consenting adults bear mutual responsibility. Criminalizing HIV is pointless, useless in reducing infections, and only creates stigma and an arbitrary divide where one party might never avail himself of the information he needs to protect himself because his blind trust in a GRINDR profile makes his safer sex decisions for him.

I have little patience for that.

Having been said, however, you don't have to agree with the laws against non-disclosure but you ought to be aware of them. And they vary from place to place. In many places, transmission doesn't even have to be achieved for prosecution to take place. The OP could stand to lose his money, his freedom, even his life.

That seems to be a bit of a risk for an aversion to condoms that seems at LEAST partially psychological. You cannot FEEL someone's ejaculate entering you. There is no special magic in the stuff. Recognizing that for the psychological issue that it is, is one (not the only) bit of introspection and lifestyle/attitude adjustment necessary to acclimate to an HIV infection. Until the cure, sex gets complicated.

Of course, another option is to get on ART, become undetectable, then find a monogamous partner of either status. In the absence of other STDs, unprotected sex with a positive partner with an Undetectable Viral load are calculated as being roughly the same risk as penetrative sex with a condom, regardless of viral load.

I didn't belabor that, because it appears that the OP doesn't want that at the moment.

Thing is, at the end of the day your conscience is your own. People at a bareback party might be stupid, but does stupid warrant disregard for his sexual future? Maybe to you it does.

Thing is, you don't want to have HIV. I get that.

Disclosing kills the mood, you say. Will taking pills do the same? I often find psychological issues don't stay in compartments.

You won the HIV lottery here. You now have the choice to let it control you, or control it. You can do that by being proactive about treatment, of course.

You can also do it by reexamining where you've been for the last 20 years, and where you want to be in the future. Life-altering events tend to, well, alter your life. And you don't always get to choose how or when or why.

By the way, I have been positive for over twenty years. And though I have spent fifteen of those in relationships, I have certainly been no saint. It's entirely doable, AND you can sleep at night - AND you can avoid expensive, often public prosecution.

You will find on your travels that the world, despite being large, is also quite small. Word gets around. And you might find that your secret will not stay safe. And you know what they say about people being "only as sick as their secrets," right?

You can still travel with HIV. Obviously before you get on treatment, and even afterwards you can get many month's worth of meds at once. I honestly don't see too much of a limitation there. A year abroad without access to treatment might be problematic, but many members here have workarounds (some ethical, some in shades of grey).

You are recently diagnosed and a little raw right now.

Give yourself time to wrap your head around this. READ this site. The learning curve is steep, but absolutely doable.

Whatever you eventually decide, I certainly hope you find happiness. It seems to have escaped you for now.

Logged

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

Jkinatl: your message made me cry. Thanks so much for your detailed and understanding response. More later.

Mecch: i read parts of the document. Honestly it made me very sad. In my experience disclosing your status to someone before sex will at best lead to a nice talk but no sex anymore. But maybe thats for the best anyway the more i think about it.

The document btw said nothing about asian countries except singapore. Does that mean there are no laws there? Seeing how most people fuck bare here without asking it seems like it (although that also happened to me in sg).

Btw sorry about the use of the word clean/unclean. Thats what most people out there say (and i always thought it to be very funny to ask that. I didnt even get it at first, i thought they asked if i had cleaned my ass lol)

Jkinatl:I am very sad these days especially mornings when i wake up early and then lie in bed thinking and not falling asleep again (which happens often whenever i have problems). I try to remain positive (thinking) and rational but sometimes i feel like wanting to give up and just end it. Its not like my life made a lot of sense before the infection and now it feels even worse with this added burden. I know a sickness can be a chance to achieve a more meaningful life, countless creative people out there proved that in our history but i dont feel like i could contribute anything to this world.

I actually started the travelling because i was bored and didnt have any sense in life. I thought i would find SOMETHING .. I didnt so far, except a virus. Not exactly what i hoped for.

I wasnt always such an egoistic sexcentric ass. In fact i have only recently discovered the joy in uninhibited sex. When i was young i was looking for love, not sex. I never really found it. Most people told me i am fat, hairy, ugly, old or just not his type. Also i was scared of hiv so much in my youth that i almost never had anal sex. Especially since i didnt like the condoms even back then. So i mostly refrained from anal sex.

But then over time i gradually lost my fear of hiv, the pain of getting fucked and started enjoying bare sex. And then i found out how much people want me, like me and even adore me in other countries, especially asian ones. And no, its not about the money (of which i dont have that much). Some people here really like the way i look and they are eager to have sex with me. Combined with their ignorance of doing safe sex mostly it was heaven.

Maybe that explains a bit. At the moment i feel like all this attention and sex is the only thing that keeps me alive and happy and the thought of going back home while necessary for various reasons and starting treatment, a normal life or giving up bare sex just makes me really really sad.

Ok, self pity. I know. Sorry.

I honestly dont know much about my future atm. I just see nothing when i look there except sickness (i cant believe the constant use of heavy medication will not cause some sort of health problems down the road).

Btw ... What does OP stand for? I know u are referring to me but i neverheard that term before.

And another thing i am wondering ... What would any of you say to a guy who doesnt ask you if you are healthy or not and just sticks his dick inside you and cums inside. Or a guy who cums inside you even if u ask them not to.

Is this moral to you? Is it really immoral to think that i dont really feel like i have to protect a guy like that by telling him about my status?

I know i have a responsibility to tell people (by law and morally). But imo some people are asking for it. The guy who infected me (not sure who he was exactly) didnt tell me either (if he knew) and thats the whole point. Why should knowing about it make the big difference? Anyone who fucks bare can get it. And while i am fully aware of my responsibility, its not the whole picture. And yes you can call me a bitch for saying this.

Look at it these ways.Very few people are "asking for it" despite taking risks.

There are people who are "asking for HIV" - they are called bug-chasers. Google it. THey fetishize the virus and being HIV+, and they WILL ask you if you have it and if you do, they will get excited and ask you to "give" it to them... It was quite the fad about 10 years ago... Not so much anymore.

You have admitted that having HIV weighs heavy on your soul. So you do NOT want to be the one to transmit it to another person. Who may be willing to have risky sex but who probably does not want an STD. Risky sex is after all, a newish conception, mostly it just sex, the way billions of people prefer it...

______

Regarding your fears about what it means to live with HIV and about HIV treatment, its 2013 and you just got it, and there is no reason to expect that HIV or HIV treatment is going to result in a life of sickness or a destroyed body. Provided that you start to see a doctor regularly and follow the good advice. The drugs are not poison, that is an old experience, doesn't apply to you...

_____

Unless you can live independently without working, for the rest of your life, or stay put somewhere AND be eligible for social assistance, you are going to need a job... Yes? No? I say this because you need something else besides sex --- and a very rigid configuration of sex at that -- to give meaning to your life.. This could be family, friends, social life, creative things, or IMO one of the main ones for a lot of people - work....

You are setting yourself up for a crushing emptiness if self worth and meaning only comes from being wanted by tops. As the decades go on, you will reach your sell-by date, and no amount of travel will find you a place where you are hot on the market... Its just a fact. Besides, you'll be rather bitter at that point, which won't help on the meat market.

The winds of change are pointing to you putting your feet on the ground and dealing with the reality of your present situation. At the very least, it does sound like a good idea for you to get on HAART ASAP. I suppose that means at least a sojourn wherever you are from, your nation, to get that set up and going...

You can kick and scream, or put your head in the sand, or delay, or whatever, not going to do much good for your soul, and not going to do any good for your partners.

Logged

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

And another thing i am wondering ... What would any of you say to a guy who doesnt ask you if you are healthy or not and just sticks his dick inside you and cums inside. Or a guy who cums inside you even if u ask them not to.

Is this moral to you?

I think the protocol in most situations that arise, in which someone says nothing but barebacks you without asking about your status, and "seeds" you "without asking" , is you don't need to say anything besides "thanks, that was great" because you went along with the whole charade to begin with.

The person you are probably "talking to" in such a situation is yourself. Or should be. What are you saying to yourself before, during and after this kind of sex...

You already have the butt flu, so why would you be worried about that guys morality of being a risk TO YOU?? He isn't an HIV risk to you. Don't confuse the issue. You got the butt flu now.

"Is it really immoral to think that i dont really feel like i have to protect a guy like that by telling him about my status?"

Here, you have to go through my 4 points. Personal moral register. Community's moral register (if such a thing exists). And moral register as reflected in stupid HIV criminalisation laws.... And finally, what you expect that partner would want.....

There is no simple answer and you are not so stupid as to believe there is. You just want there to be a simple answer because that would help with your present cognitive dissonance.

Logged

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Uh. Did I miss something? You're HIV+. Just sleep with other poz guys who feel the way you do about condoms and get on with your life. If you're looking for us, we gather around a campfire to scare each other with superAIDS(tm) ghost stories on alternate Wednesdays at 8pm sharp. Bring a snack.

I feel a bit better now, i guess the shock faded a bit and made way for a more realistic mindset. Sorry for the late reply guys.

I am with you, mecch when you writenabout me being in need of some sort of sense in life other than sex. I knew that before getting infected but maybe now i feel the emptiness more prominent. And yes, sooner or later, when my money runs out i will probably need to get a job again (wish me luck)

Oksikoko: i hear you. Too bad you are far haha

A few questions and obstacles remain:

- The fact that i have to tell the people i recently had bb sex with (when i was infected but didnt know and was highly infectious i guess)

- the next few months in which i will still travel, have no meds and might mot be strong enough to always say no to bb sex.

- the question if i should tell everyone (preferably on fb cause the nsa probably knows it anyway) or not. So far i only told my doctor and 2 of my closest friends. In some moments i want to tell the whole world (via blog or fb), in others i dont want to tell anyone. I guess no one can answer that for me ...

- last but not least i dont know if i should tell my sexpartners after i am on meds or not. If my viral load is very low, it wouldnt make a difference right? I could fuck bb with anyone without risking anyones infection? Finally something positive about being positive ... haha unless someone tells me to be careful about other std's, hiv strains or whatever ....

Hi Btmbear . There are no guarantees that you are undetectable at any one instance so if you are not disclosing you need to be having protected anal sex period .

I personally choose disclosure well before sex but I sometime think that in some instances a HIV positive sex partner may think that someone would never have unprotected sex unless they are positive themselves and a negative person makes the mistake of assuming a person who knows they are positive would never have unprotected sex without disclosing . Then there are those that simply do not care because of drugs and alcohol are involved .

Sadly the assumptions we make in the heat of the moment leads to more infections in cases like this .

- If they had bb sex, they must accept the consequences. Even if someone tests positive, the 'blame' is not all yours.

- I believe it's wrong to have sex, protected or not, without disclosing your status. You have to decide that for yourself, though. How would you want to be treated if the roles were reversed?

- Undetectable does not mean 'cured'. Even with an undetectable viral load, you can still transmit the virus, even though the probability is greatly lowered. Again, if the roles were reversed, would you want a positive person keeping his status a secret?

interesting .... there seem to exist different opinions on the subject of infectiousness when taking meds. I talked with 2 people today and yesterday and i googled a bit and some, like you 2 seem to say that its not safe enough to fuck bb with an hiv negative partner. Others otoh seem to suggest it is safe enough. Some say having bb sex with an hiv+ partner on meds is safer than fucking bb with a stranger whose status is unkown or who claims to be negative. Especially if the hiv+ partner is the bottom.

Honestly the disclosure thing worries me. In my experience it does kill the mood. A hiv- guy will not fuck you bb if you put it into his face even though you tell him you are on meds. He will most likely prefer to fuck a guy he doesnt know anything about. (even though it might be less safe rationally). At least thats my observation last few years. People dont want to talk or think about this when they have sex. Why else would people fuck bb so much?

Unprotected anal sex puts you at a higher risk for STD's and can cause viral load spikes and then there is the issue of the undetectable HIV plasma levels does not always equal undetectable HIV in semen .

Std's can linger without symptoms for long periods of time and could lead to an HIV infection .

I see you are struggling with the issue of disclosure , we all have . At some point you must come to terms that living with HIV changes things and part of living with HIV is doing your part to prevent others from becoming infected .

there seem to exist different opinions on the subject of infectiousness when taking meds. I talked with 2 people today and yesterday and i googled a bit and some, like you 2 seem to say that its not safe enough to fuck bb with an hiv negative partner. Others otoh seem to suggest it is safe enough. Some say having bb sex with an hiv+ partner on meds is safer than fucking bb with a stranger whose status is unkown or who claims to be negative. Especially if the hiv+ partner is the bottom.

Honestly the disclosure thing worries me. In my experience it does kill the mood. A hiv- guy will not fuck you bb if you put it into his face even though you tell him you are on meds. He will most likely prefer to fuck a guy he doesnt know anything about. (even though it might be less safe rationally). At least thats my observation last few years. People dont want to talk or think about this when they have sex. Why else would people fuck bb so much?

There seem to be differences of opinion because we're talking about risk, and different people have different levels of risk aversion. What might be OK for me may not be for someone else, even though the risk is the same. The study everyone cites on this issue is HPTN 052 which showed for serodiscordant heterosexual couples, maintaining an undetectable viral load reduced transmission risk by 96%. That's great unless you're in the 4%. Also note that no homosexual couples were in the study. The transmission risk for anal sex is greater than that for vaginal. (Here's a copy/paste from Quora. Click through to get active links to these studies.)

As for disclosure killing the mood, I would ask why you would want to have sex with someone who wouldn't have sex with you if they knew you were positive. Being HIV+ is now part of who you are, and your partners should accept that. And, as I said, I believe they have a right to choose their own level of risk. If someone is uncomfortable having sex with a poz person, I believe it's not fair for me to withhold that information, forcing them to make a risk decision with faulty data.

There are plenty of poz people who want to have sex with other poz people, so declining the advances of neggos who aren't comfortable with your status doesn't mean you'll never have sex again. I don't sleep with negative people at all, and I seem to be doing alright in that department.

And we haven't even really gotten into the potential legal risk you are putting yourself in by not disclosing. You could be one jilted lover away from wrongful imprisonment.

Honestly the disclosure thing worries me. In my experience it does kill the mood. A hiv- guy will not fuck you bb if you put it into his face even though you tell him you are on meds.

Have you actually tried disclosing?

There is a minority of members here who feel that in some situations there is no need to disclose if the sex is going to be with condoms.... (Legal considerations aside, that is...)

Your observations about whats going on in practice are not wrong. Supposed to be 1 out of 6 gay guys in Switzerland "on the scene" - meaning hooking up here and there -- who are HIV+. Few feel like talking about STDs in the heat of the moment. When I was a wanton slut for many years (and HIV-) very few people asked and very few people volunteered information about HIV status. But the sex was safe. In the last 5 years since I was HIV+, and got curious about anonymous barebacking, yes, I found the same as you say, in sex clubs and cruisy situations, people would bareback without talking about STDs.... But, as I said, I ended up catching Hep C through that little experiment in 70's style freedom.... While I was doing it, I rationalised my potential risk to others as slim, as I was on HAART.. But slim isn't zero. And as members such as Oksikoko explain, the moral position is to say something everywhere, every time, and just let the chips fall where they may about rejection. There are other fish in the sea.

One of the things you seem to have an issue with is the old adage: "two wrongs do not make a right"

You are correct. You can go out and find people willing to bareback you no questions asked. But for the moment, you can't even find justification as presenting "minimal risk", because you'd rather continue your sex tourism for awhile, than go home and get treated...

Which begs the question. Maybe the first step for you, who fears all this potential rejection, is to go get yourself onto HAART. Though probably that won't change all THAT much to most HIV- guys you disclose too. Most dont care about the subtleties of detectable and undetectable. They just don't want to be told and once told certainly don't want to fuck an HIV+ guy. Though there is a small group of HIV- guys who are willing to bareback (as tops) HIV+ guys who do disclose...

It is what it is...

« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 06:27:01 PM by mecch »

Logged

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

I was a bit more cheerful yesterday but reading the above made me feel quite sad again.

I know i am able to do unsafe sex without disclosing. I have this "dark" side inside me. And i can even back it up with rational thoughts. The best that comes to mind is the first safe sex campain i ever heard when i was young: treat everyone as if he was hiv+ and protect yourself. According to that safe sex motto everyone who fucks me bare, especially in saunas or darkrooms is stupid.

But of course i also have a different side and lees motto to not do what i dont want to be done to me is of course also in the back of my head. But then that means serosorting guys or refraining from any kind of bare sex with anyone. Even when on meds. I am not gonna count on the few hiv neg tops who would be willing to top a hiv+ btm bare.

Mecch: yes, i tried disclosing in the last few days. I didnt go to any saunas because i knew i would be tempted to fuck bb without telling. But i chatted with guys on apps and sometimes i even told guys right after the first few messages. Usually the reaction was thanks for your honestly and then it either ended or we met for coffee instead of sex. Which is ok but ....

I honestly dont see much chance to ever find a bf that way. I am picky as it is, hardly ever falling love and i am not what people in western countries would call a hottie (in asian countries thats different). Now i also need to start serosorting guys? Man ....

Btw lee ... I dont quite get it. You wrote the risk of infection when on haart for straightcouples is reduced by 96%. But then you pasted numbers where insertive anal sex has a risk of between 0,11 and 0,62%. Thats an incredibly low risk. I wonder what the risk is to get hit by a car when crossing the street.

Funny, i just did the disclosure thing again with a guywho seemed nice. His reation? Dont worry i know how its transmitted. We can always hang out, just not the sexual way. Ouch, that hurt

Yep. You are going to get that.

But I bet dollars to donuts that if you were to hang out, sex would happen. Safer sex, of course. But sex.

You may find yourself fishingin deeper waters with disclosure, but I think you will find the catch is worth it.

Logged

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

Btw lee ... I dont quite get it. You wrote the risk of infection when on haart for straightcouples is reduced by 96%. But then you pasted numbers where insertive anal sex has a risk of between 0,11 and 0,62%. Thats an incredibly low risk. I wonder what the risk is to get hit by a car when crossing the street.

HIV is actually rather hard to transmit. It's not like a cold or the flu.

However, 1.4% chance of contracting HIV per sex act (anal receptive) are odds most people would rather not take. From the conclusion of that particular meta-study on anal sex "Unprotected [anal intercourse] is a high-risk practice for HIV transmission, probably with substantial variation in infectiousness. The significant heterogeneity between infectiousness estimates means that pooled AI HIV transmission probabilities should be used with caution."

To reference your example, your chances of being hit by a car every time you cross the street are no doubt much, much lower. If you saw someone about to be hit by a car, would you warn them or just say they deserved it for not looking both ways even though they know they should? OK, that metaphor is stretched beyond repair.

But of course i also have a different side and lees motto to not do what i dont want to be done to me is of course also in the back of my head. But then that means serosorting guys or refraining from any kind of bare sex with anyone. Even when on meds. I am not gonna count on the few hiv neg tops who would be willing to top a hiv+ btm bare.

Hey, it's not my motto. I'm a terrible person, but that doesn't mean I don't have high ideals for the rest of you. I don't personally do the serodiscordant thing, because, ew, gross, but I was specifically referencing the non-disclosure raw sex with what I wrote above. If he knows you're poz and doesn't care, that may change your moral calculus. Or it may not. But it's not the same scenario.

I honestly dont see much chance to ever find a bf that way. I am picky as it is, hardly ever falling love and i am not what people in western countries would call a hottie (in asian countries thats different). Now i also need to start serosorting guys? Man ....

Man you are clouding your own issues. Dumping EVERYTHING together into the same pot. Using rationales hat apply to one scenario in another, where they don't apply, just because its convenient.

I thought we were talking all along about your need for bare dick in you, in one offs... cruisy spots. internet hookups, etc. Priority! No condom, you need it bare. Thats what gives your life meaning and you're so sad and frustrated now that its both morally complicated and not as easy to find if you consider the morals....

Suddenly you are talking now about how to get a Boyfriend.

Listen, if the goal is a boyfriend, you are absolutely NOT going to get a HIV- boyfriend if you have bareback sex first and sometime after the start of the bareback sex, you disclose.... You yourself said it. You could, however, start a relation by bareback sex and if by chance he's also HIV+, I could imagine you might find yourselves happy bedfellows if the MUTUAL disclosure comes later on.

You're making this much more difficult than it needs to be, and also have the nerve to complain about it being difficult. If the goal is a boyfriend, then for the WIDEST possible pool of candidates, (and YOU need a wide pool, bacause you are picky....) you should be willing to have sex with condoms..... And to disclose up front.

Otherwise, just "have it your way". Go on barebacking anonymously and without disclosure and take satisfaction in that as best as you can.... Put HIV+ in your online profile and say you are looking for the same. Go to sex clubs that are known to be mostly for bareback. Go to special nights at other sex clubs, that are advertised as "no limit". Or just go on dong it bareback whereever and whenever, and take comfort in the idea that its the other guy who is "stupid" and not following the sex rules everyone knows, and if you transmit HIV, well, too bad, that's the breaks. Tough luck for him.

Or, take one of the other suggestions here - if bare sex is the priority, but you'd like a "relation" with the person attached to the unprotected dick, just let it all hang out, disclose, and seek out ONLY other hiv+ guys...

You seem to think relationships are based primarily on physical attraction. NOT SO.

Your track record not being able to be in a relationship does not speak to your looks but rather your behaviour and your self-centredness

« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 03:19:04 AM by mecch »

Logged

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Point blank, how many people do you think are going to be boyfriend material if you refuse to use a condom, and also refuse to go on HAART? Well, that narrows it down to HIV+ guys who bareback.

On the other hand, in a nutshell, if you want to continue barebacking hither nither and not disclosing, then accept the constraints of that setting. Its morally muddled and you aren't going to get a "good housekeeping stamp of approval".

IMO it would be a step in self-esteem, loving yourself, respecting yourself, to go on HAART, and thus also a step in respecting others. At least then if you want to continue your barebacking and not discussing STDS, you'll be lowering the risk for others.

Its a sort of karma we are talking about, you'll be a more attractive person by having acted out of concern for others. Even if you're still not disclosing, that energy of at least some concern for others will be out there. You won't be a person who considers others stupid and deserving to suffer for their stupidity.

As I said, my personal feeling is that with things like HEP C out there, which can be transmitted through bareback gay anal sex, (fact few people seem to take into account), and with the rise of antibiotic resistant STDs, casual barebacking poz-with- poz isn't a win-win situation... Either.

If you have a real desire to open yourself to a relation, start making peace with condoms and get your mind ready for HAART.

Logged

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Btmbear, you are a grown man and you seem to be looking for every excuse in the book to have unprotected sex with negative guys without telling them.

Remember one thing.... NOT everyone is educated on HIV and many guys especially in countries other than U.K, U.S.A ( even some there) Think if someone looks healthly they don't have HIV, not because in denial but because sex education on HIV in many countries is very limited. So they will have unprotected sex thinking they are genuinely safe.

The above posters have given good advice. You are positive, deal with it. Find other guys who are poz or if you meet a neg guy, tell him, explain HAART, the risks.

That's life! It's isn't always the way we want it to be. Sorry if anyone find my post offensive but we are all responsible adults.

mecch doesnt seem to like my character much, judging from his answers. Maybe he is right. Always thought i am a good guy but my weakness is pleasure. I do things that are bad for me (too much food, too much sweets, too much sex, too much bare sex, ...). I dont think i am alone here. Think about the pro/contra discussion about smoking in bars and public places (not so much in us but in some parts of europe). Second hand smoke is clearly a danger to the people working there and the nonsmokers going but yet the antismoking laws are not so strict. Why? Cause people prefer to sometimes enjoy something even if it has potential risks. OK, i know the analogy with HIV is a weak one.

curious1there:

If i was a grown man would i have fucked bare so much in countries where HIV rates are high? Or at all? I knew the risks on a rational level.

Honestly i am not sure i can always do the right thing. The right thing for you guys is:

- go on Haart (that i will do eventually when i am back home)- always tell before sex (that i am not so sure about)- look for poz guys (Can try I guess although here in asia almost no one will have that written in their gayromeo profile)- Use condoms (just bought very thin ones in good intention but honestly, i tried for years to protect myself with them and enjoy it without much success, not sure I will suddenly enjoy safe sex)

You seem to be saying that your desire for BB sex trumps your concern for not infecting others , that's what is alarming .

Yes , the feedback you have received has been fair and civil and I hope it stays that way . If you come here and make admissions like you have done then people have no choice but to honestly address them .

I sincerely hope you get it together and accept your responsibility's that all people living with HIV face .

I am just being honest. Maybe thats my problem. Makes me sound like i am a bad character guy although i am pretty sure many people have these or even worse thoughts (and I am 100% sure some people do pretty bad things as well out there judging from what I see in real life.

I kinda regret to have done the test in a way (ups, another honest thought).It was bad to fuck bare before but at least it was morally ok. (no one will judge you if u fuck bare or in an unkown state). But once you do the test, and even if you go on Haart but not tell .... ups, you are a bad guy or not grown up or whatever.

Of course I dont want to hurt anyone. Why would i have such a problem telling the guys I have recently (before my test) fucked bare with if i was so bad? I could just not tell them and ignore the risk to them.

I just honestly feel bad for my future with the options you guys present to me. It honestly makes me very sad, gives me stomach ache and wahtnot. BUt yeah, maybe thats the only way to be a good guy from now on.

Its not "good" and "bad". Its not black or white. People are encouraging you to include some nuance in your behaviors and in your opinions about others. Nobody is saying "bad boy". You want a boyfriend / lover / partner it's a quality you need to start developing.

About enjoying one-offs - yeah you're correct there is plenty of irrational behavior and most of us have been there or are still there. It's sex, it's messy. You missed my point about "two wrongs don't make a right". You can bareback now, un treated, with detectable viral load, and not disclose, yep, you'll find partners. They are being reckless. But so are you. It's two "wrongs".

That's life. You can take the "high road", the middle road, the low road, or ALL the roads. Just know what road you are on and stop mislabeling.

If most of the people are on the low road, it's not magically transformed to the high road.

You can move through your sadness and disappointment and frustration with your new reality, or you can put your head in the sand. But you are here in this forum and as they say, there are some things in life "once you see it, it cannot be unseen."

Nobody but nobody does well living with HIV if there is denial about the new reality of having HIV... That is a truth.

« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 11:30:35 AM by mecch »

Logged

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

I just honestly feel bad for my future with the options you guys present to me. It honestly makes me very sad, gives me stomach ache and wahtnot. BUt yeah, maybe thats the only way to be a good guy from now on.

HIV's not for the weak of heart. Luckily, people who test positive tend to grow stronger than they were before, so you'll probably be fine.

Even though your medical prognosis might be quite good (if you listen to your doctor), there's still a lot of social stuff - stigma and responsibility - to take on. You may not want it, but it's yours. I quote the great Katy Perry: "It's never easy to be chosen, never easy to be called, standing on the frontline when the bombs start to fall" Let Katy be your light in the darkness.

I digress. The secret to HIV is: you'll be fine if you want to be. It's OK if you don't feel fine right now or if you don't feel fine most of the time. But all in all, it's best to just be fine with things you can't control - like your HIV status and its consequences. You only have control over how you approach things and how you treat people, including yourself. In case you like platitudes and black/white thinking, here are some aphorisms I've just made up for living with HIV.

1) Don't knowingly put others at risk without their consent. And even with consent, probably you shouldn't. Negative people, I've said before, are mostly ignorant when it comes to HIV. We shouldn't exploit their naivete, the poor dears.2) Don't put yourself at risk unless you've honestly evaluated it and are prepared for its consequences. Honestly.3) Be responsible about your health. Hard fact that will win me no friends for saying: you now have a contagious disease. The better you manage it, the healthier you (and your community) will be. And it is manageable for most people, depending on the details of their health. Talk to your doctor.4) Live your life. To quote a genius from the last millennium: It's a fact that people are still having sex, lust keeps on lurking, nothing makes them stop, this AIDS thing's not working.

OK, I have some calculated risks to take this afternoon. Best of luck to you.

i feel weak most of the time lately. Actually i have a track record of being weak. Strenght was never my strong suit so to speak. So if u quote Katy Perry ... or other people who have showed strength it just makes me realize how weak i am in comparison. Not sure I can change here or where that strength should be coming from.

The funny thing is that sex was one of the very few things in life that made me feel strong afterwards. Now i feel thats stripped away from me for good so i feel even weaker than before.

Its weird how actually becoming hiv+ is very different from thinking about becoming it before. And i so hate the feeling i have now. Very very weak

i feel weak most of the time lately. Actually i have a track record of being weak. Strenght was never my strong suit so to speak. So if u quote Katy Perry ... or other people who have showed strength it just makes me realize how weak i am in comparison. Not sure I can change here or where that strength should be coming from.

The funny thing is that sex was one of the very few things in life that made me feel strong afterwards. Now i feel thats stripped away from me for good so i feel even weaker than before.

Its weird how actually becoming hiv+ is very different from thinking about becoming it before. And i so hate the feeling i have now. Very very weak

Sorry guys for giving you a hard time with my stupid posts.

Strength comes from experience, and growth.

Experience and growth often come from pain.

Maybe, just maybe, instead of looking for your strength in the eyes of the endless list of guys who want to bed you, you can stop for a while.

Stop and live with the pain of your changed life for a little. Walk with that pain.

You might be amazed that you find strength inside yourself that you didn't know you had.

Your posts, your struggle, your feelings are not stupid.

They will help make you a better person. Someone who has so much more to offer the world and the hot guys in it.

Logged

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

"The best that comes to mind is the first safe sex campain i ever heard when i was young: treat everyone as if he was hiv+ and protect yourself. According to that safe sex motto everyone who fucks me bare, especially in saunas or darkrooms is stupid."

I don't see how you can conclude that, some people would fuck you bare because they are prey of their urges, some are uneducated, some think they'll be lucky not to get it. Our parents had to have unsafe sex at some point for us to be here and i bet most of them didnt get tested.

Anyway, there are plenty of safe sex that you can't have if you don't want to disclose, oral sex, mutual masturbation, etc. You might be surprised when you find other ways to have fun.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

Thanks for your 2 answers. I didnt respond anymore cause i didnt feel like i could add anything worth posting but i did appreciate your answers.

Yes once i am back i will get treatment and if that would make me safe enough for my partners that would be great. But there seem to be differing opinions on this and i am not sure if the "disclosing laws" will discern between a person using meds and one who doesnt.

Not sure i will turn out stronger than before but yeah thats a possibility. I feel a bit better again now after the first shock. I am kinda avoiding sex though. I met a few guys (much less than before) but went out for coffee instead of inviting them to my room.

How do u guys go about disclosing it to your friends or at work? I more and more feel like posting it on facebook and get it over with once and for all. I dont wanna go to each and every person and tell them personally and then keeping track of who i told and who i didnt tell. I dont mind the people who dont like me anymore after telling them but i am a bit afraid of other consequences like problems finding a job or maybe insurance companies not covering you (travel insurance etc)

Recently in Switzerland, being on HAART and undetectable DID make a difference in one (1) case of nondisclosure..... But I would not count on it where you are. I don't think it makes a difference in most places with these laws.

As far as employment discrimination. - What country do you live in? Is it legal in your country to discriminate against HIV+ workers in the workplace? Even if it is illegal to discriminate, is it still common???

Don't disclose on facebook!!!! Are you nuts?

Unless you feel like being an activist for HIV awareness, rights, etc, -- which is highly unlikely since you don't even feel like telling an intimate partner --- nobody at a place of employment needs to know. Of if someone there needs to know, there should be a good reason - a reason that benefits you. Or some legal requirement. Otherwise, what's in it for you? Nothing.

As for friends and family, disclosing to the world on facebook seems "passive-agressive." "Because its too tiresome to tell each person...."

If you feel like some particular family member or some friends should know, or you want them to know, then just tell that person. That would be nice of you. Or en email to THAT person. Or phone call...

When I decided to disclose socially, I just told about 10 friends and said it was not a secret and it wasn't long before everyone knew. I have never disclosed at work and in Switzerland, a very discrete culture, the gossip never passed the barrier between friends and professional. Careful where you are, this may not be the case.....

I got the impression you are unemployed, so why are you talking about disclosing at work? I thought you were on permanent holiday outside your country?

Logged

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

I am not far if u are in switzerland. I am in the country next to you in the east. HahaI have always been very lucky with my outings as a gay person. Not sure why but whomever i told it, friends, strangers, people at work, ... I never had to deal with any discrimination. And i honestly prefer to be as open as possible with everyone.

I think you have a bit of a twisted opinion about my character. Maybe thats because i focused so much on the sex stuff at first cause i am truly afraid this hiv thing will make my sexlife more difficult than it was ever before (and it was never really easy for me until a few years ago).

It may sound very weird in a way but i would have much less of a problem disclosing hiv to my friends, my coworkers or anyone else than to my sexual partners. The latter are the ones that will most likely discriminate me by not having sex with me anymore or insisting on condoms (just tried again today with a condom, i soooo didnt enjoy it).

I think being open about hiv in a very undramatic way (like posting it on fb as if it was just any personal update) would make it easier for me and everyone else around me. My experience about outing myself as gay taught me that the less fuss i make about it, the easier it is for others to accept. As for work ... I have always worked in rather small companies where a lot of personal information was known about everyone. And i kinda enjoyed not having to hide anything.

Of course in the future, early next year, i will have to find a new job (unles i get my old one back which i am not sure i want). And i am kinda looking for a job where i can travel for work so it might be in a bigger company and there i am not sure it would be ok to talk about hiv and being gay.

PS: if i would disclose on fb i would only disclose to my friends list of course, not to the public.

mecch, why so aghast at Facebook disclosure? I barely use it, but I did a general purpose, 'hey, I'm HIV positive' message just so I wouldn't have to tell people on a case-by-case basis. Worked out pretty well, though I'm sure some people thought it was TMI. I'm not ashamed of being poz, so it didn't seem like a big deal to me.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

It's quite possible it's a genie that should be let out. Will it be hard? Possibly. But stigma will never change if we all keep cowering in our hidey holes.

But, yeah, I agree, don't do it if you're not going to be able to take the consequences. It won't do anyone any good.

(But on second thought, what consequences?) Speaking as someone whose life exploded, who lost absolutely everything, but who seems to be doing just peachy nonetheless, I can assure you you can live through most of the consequences of being open.

- If your job would be at risk, ask yourself if you really want to work for a company that would fire you for being positive. You might say "we don't all have the option to be picky" to which I say we have more options than we often admit. Some are more comfortable than others, but no one promised us a comfortable life, and the societal (plus personal) benefits of disclosure might just outweigh your (temporary probably) discomfort. Discomfort builds character.

- If you're afraid your family will reject you, do you really plan to hide it your whole life? Tell them now, and they'll get over it in time to see their grandkids. If they're really, honestly going to reject you over this, then that's a dysfunctional relationship you'd probably be better off without. You could instead be focusing on developing your friendships. Or relationships with anyone who won't reject you over a disease.

- Speaking of friends... Afraid they might reject you? Repeat the refrain. Do you really want friends who would be bothered by this? Really? You might have to go through a lonely period while life readjusts and you're meeting new people, but I promise, you can survive a little loneliness, especially when the rewards are so great.

So, what, exactly, are the consequences of being honest? Everyone's experience is different, and I have no doubt that some people have legitimate fears. But many people are just afraid in general, which is understandable, but likely unnecessary and a crap way to make yourself live.

I am with you on this. I have always been very open about being gay at work, with friends .. Why would i wantto work for someone who doesnt accept me the way i am?

So yes maybe i should continue being open about my hiv infection.I dont have much family left anymore and i am pretty sure most of my friends wont have a problem.

I am a bit afraid of their Judgement though. While most (liberal) people accept you as gay, they might pass judgment on you getting yourself infected. I mean its true. It was my own fault, i could have protected myself and some of my friends even warned me numerous times to be careful. I will have to expect quite a few judgmental replies i assume ..

I think you are getting ahead of yourself, so to speak. Until you can put HIV in proper perspective in your own head, you are not ready to go telling everyone else in your life your status. This is all still new to you.

You need to live with this information for a few months. You need to show yourself that this changes very little in your life at the moment. You need to get used to monitoring the progress of your HIV.

If you need to talk to someone, talk to a licensed therapist that deals with sexuality issues. You should talk to a therapist about your fears of being judged negatively -and how to deal with any that might happen. You need to address your other fears by educating yourself about HIV. Being able to talk about HIV rationally can go a long way toward nullifying others' negative attitudes.

Once you live with this for a while, you'll find you've answered a lot of your questions.

As for your condom issues, you might have a slight allergy to latex. The irritation and discomfort could be your body reacting to exposure to the latex. There are alternatives to latex condoms that don't provoke an allergic reaction. You should try them.

And consider your professional future and if a digital tatoo of your HIV+ status is going to be a manageable situation, or not. Not clear what your job is, what country you will make your career, etc etc. Is possible social or professional discrimination something you want to add to your present challenges?

Tell all your friends and family however you want, of course... But watch out for your own integrity. What can you handle, what not... And when.

Logged

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

there are some of us who who would like to disclose but in doing so would mean a quick deportation and fucked for life!!!! We all don't live in your utopia world!!

Lee was talking about a specific issue with the OP and I don't think he was making a blanket statement if you keep it in context .

There are many reasons not to disclose such as fear of violence or economic hardships that could result from it .

Its fact that all of the ones that did or do live their lives openly as HIV positive have made a positive impact on the fight against stigma . The willingness of many to be open about their HIV status has led the FDA and governments to fast track new treatment options that saved countless lives , there are far to many benefits to list that we have reaped from those who are willing to be counted as HIV positive .

I always have thought if the only reason you are in the closet about living with HIV is to make it easier to get laid it hurts all of us eventually when people find any way when you get hauled off to jail for not disclosing , we all get painted with the aids spreading monster brush and the cycle of stigma and discrimination can do its nasty job of making it all the more difficult for folks who are struggling with coming to terms with their infection , like the OP .

I understand why some people will not live openly with HIV , some of those reason I respect .