It is all over the Thai web, another big scandal. It is Ven. Anil Dhammasakiyo who announced it to the reporters (he is the Nepalese Dhammayut monk who is a good scholar and kind of secretary to the old Sangharaja). Apparently they hired the foreign scholars and gave them salary of 15 thousand baht per month to replace e.g. "anicca dukkha anatta" with "anicca dukkha atta". I have come across some variant readings like that before, obviously errors, and if they discovered more in the Northern Thai manuscripts they might use it as a pretext for claiming their weird teachings as being orthodox. The article also mentions their cooperation with Richard Gombrich and the Buddhist studies centre in Oxford (it was not wise of him and the PTS to get involved with Dhammakaya in the first place).

This seems to be a clever way of using 'critical scholarship' to promote their teachings about Nibbana as the real 'self':

Considering unreliable nature of the present editions and also taking into account the recent discoveries of the oldest surviving palm leaf manuscripts from the temples of Northern Thailand and also the scholarly discussions in the field of Pali textual studies, the Dhammachai Institute has undertaken this gigantic task of producing a comprehensive critical edition of the Pali Tipitaka... The aspect of textual criticism that concerns us is comparison and analysis of ancient MSS to discover copyists’ errors and, if possible, to reconstruct the true or original form of the document. The principles of textual criticism also include (2) Internal criteria (pertaining to the logic of readings) such as “the more difficult reading is often preferred”; “that reading is best which best explains the others”; and “the shorter reading is generally preferred.”http://dhammachaitipitaka.org/pages/

I came across this text by a Dhammakaya follower a while ago. They seem to get as much academic backing for their teachings as possible. With enough funds, they will also win over a number of scholars I can imagine.

That is a rather mind-bogglingly impressively arrogantly bold move. One wonders what is the motivation for such an action other than trying to hide the fact that Dhammakaya is really in congruent with the Buddha's teachings. Well, then just change the teachings. We have seen that time and again, but this really takes it to a grand scale.

.

++++++++++++++++This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

There is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. If there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. -- Ud 80

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

Now, are they just trying to twist nibbana into being some kind of self, or do they literally intend to replace "anatta" with "atta" all throughout? It will be interesting to see how they plan to have the tipitaka make any sense whatsoever if the latter is true. As opposed to just partially nonsensical with the first.

Now, are they just trying to twist nibbana into being some kind of self.

I'd have thought it's been done before, though possibly not in Theravada.

"Right effort is effort with wisdom. Because where there is wisdom, there is interest. The desire to know something is wisdom at work. Being mindful is not difficult. But it’s difficult to be continuously aware. For that you need right effort. But it does not require a great deal of energy. It’s relaxed perseverance in reminding yourself to be aware. When you are aware, wisdom unfolds naturally, and there is still more interest." - Sayadaw U Tejaniya

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

As to how Prof Gombrich got "involved", I hear from a good source that Dhammakaya funding was all that was keeping the Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies alive all those years. Seems like the lesser of 2 evils, since the other major pledgor was the spouse of a right-wing Hindu nationalist who would only part with the grant, if Gombrich were to cast the Buddha as a Hindu... Good Gombrich of course declined.

Anyway, another more juicy bit of tiraccanakatha on Dhammakaya. It seems that in the final 3 months of his life, LP Sodh (the founder of Dhammakaya) recanted his Dhammakaya teachings when he made a breakthrough in his own meditation.

gavesako wrote:It is all over the Thai web, another big scandal. It is Ven. Anil Dhammasakiyo who announced it to the reporters (he is the Nepalese Dhammayut monk who is a good scholar and kind of secretary to the old Sangharaja). Apparently they hired the foreign scholars and gave them salary of 15 thousand baht per month to replace e.g. "anicca dukkha anatta" with "anicca dukkha atta".

They havent heard of search-replace functions in software yet? But jokes aside thats just unlogical.

I have come across some variant readings like that before, obviously errors, and if they discovered more in the Northern Thai manuscripts they might use it as a pretext for claiming their weird teachings as being orthodox.

That I want to see. They believe in these layered nonmatterial bodies dont they? With Buddhas Dharmakaya being the biggest of them? They'll have a really hard time giving a logically coherent explantion of that or find proof for that in the sutras (or any honored buddhist texts) - imho if ppl wanna follow those ideas its their own fault for not thinking clearly.

If the thesis tried to prove that somehow then I would be interested in being pointed towards where tho as I dont have the motivation atm to read thru 290 pages.

The news you've heard about Wat Phra Dhammakaya tries to replace "anatta with "atta" in the Tipitaka is totally false. It seems like someone/some group want to discredit Wat Phra Dhammakaya by using Ven. Anil Dhammasakiyo's name. Ven. Anil Dhammasakiyo just announced that he didn't give any interview regarding this matter.

In fact, he did mention that, in his private conversation with his students, he admired Wat Phra Dhammakaya for working on this project.

Therefore, I would like to pass this message along so that we can stop this accusation.

The news you've heard about Wat Phra Dhammakaya tries to replace "anatta with "atta" in the Tipitaka is totally false. It seems like someone/some group want to discredit Wat Phra Dhammakaya by using Ven. Anil Dhammasakiyo's name. Ven. Anil Dhammasakiyo just announced that he didn't give any interview regarding this matter.

In fact, he did mention that, in his private conversation with his students, he admired Wat Phra Dhammakaya for working on this project.

Therefore, I would like to pass this message along so that we can stop this accusation.

The above message is completely meaningless to the vast majority of DW members and does nothing to quell concerns regarding the Dhammakaya movement.

Any further posts, by anyone, containing untranslated Thai, or other language, in support of one side or the other in this (or any other discussion) will be removed from view.Thanks for your cooperation.

Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

My apology for putting Thai news. I just want to directly answer to the 'Subject' by Phra Ajahn Gavesako. His original subject is also composed of Thai news. That's why I put some Thai news along with my last comment.

Thanks for takig the time to respond. My post wasn't directed just to you.I have no problem with you defending Dhammakaya. The issue is, whether it is you or another Dhamma Wheel member, either writing in another language or reproducing material in another language and not providing a translation. It then excludes most of our members in participating or even getting an appreciation of both sides of the discussion.kind regards

Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Thanks for takig the time to respond. My post wasn't directed just to you.I have no problem with you defending Dhammakaya. The issue is, whether it is you or another Dhamma Wheel member, either writing in another language or reproducing material in another language and not providing a translation. It then excludes most of our members in participating or even getting an appreciation of both sides of the discussion.kind regards

Ben

In that case, may I suggest a translation of Wat Phra Dhammakāya's response in Thai which Ven. Gavesako pasted in his mail (I use the word 'response', not 'denial'):

With regard to the statement that Anilman Dhammasakiyo has made to mass media that Wat Phra Dhammakāya has invited Pāḷi specialist scholars from several countries to edit the Tipiṭaka, by changing the Three Characteristics, anicca, dukkha and anattā, Wat Phra Dhammakāya wishes to declare the following:

There is nobody in the world who can change the teaching on the Three Characteristics in the Tipiṭaka, because each of the editions of the Tipiṭaka, whether it be the Thai Siam Rat edition, the Sri Lankese Buddhajayanti edition, the Birmese Chaṭṭha Saṅgāyanā Edition, or the edition from the Pali Text Society in the UK, clearly describe this teaching. If anyone were to arbitrarily change anything regarding this matter, it would clearly not agree with the evidence that can already be found in all the existent editions of the Tipiṭaka. Certainly nobody would accept such a thing, and it would only be detrimental to the person making the changes. It would not be beneficial in any way.

The Tipiṭaka project that Wat Phra Dhammakāya is running now, aims to maintain old palm leaf manuscripts that can be found in places of ancient traditions, such as in Thailand, Lanna, Sri Lanka, Birma and Cambodia. Sadly, these manuscripts in many places become rotten, or are infested by termites in the passage of time. Wat Phra Dhammakāya does this work by taking digital scans of these documents and save these in the computer, to make it more convenient for international scholars to study and do research. The wat therefore cooperates with scholars in checking the scans, so that a comprehensive Tipiṭaka database of information can be made. In this database, it will be possible to find information on every (Buddhist) tradition conveniently and fast using digital computer technology. This is a tremendous amount of work, that can only be done in international cooperation with scholars, and will take decades. But it will be of great benefit in studying and doing research on the Tipiṭaka.

At present, Thai society is already full of conflict and dissension. We therefore ask everyone to please not allow ignorance and misunderstandings to cause any further dissension in the Buddhist world.

Also yesterday Wat Phra Dhammkāya gave this piece of important information (translated from the Thai article first pasted in Kentsiam's mail)

Ven. Anilman denies having ever done an interview with any media

Regarding the news of the interview with Ven. Anilman, according to which Ven. Anilman criticizes the teachings and research project of Wat Phra Dhammakāya, Wat Phra Dhammakāya received an e-mail message from Ven. Anilman in which he denies having had any interview with any mass media. Ven Anilman Dhammasākiyo states that he is currently travelling to give a talk at a university in the United States. He received the news from Thailand from his student monks, which was very disturbing and surprising to him. He said he did not understand what news the news reporters have written, refering to him in certain matters, considering that he was still in the United States, and had not contacted anyone for a long while. He remembered he once had a personal conversation with his students, analyzing and praising Wat Phra Dhammakāya that they really devoted themselves to study and research in the Tipiṭaka project, and that they hired Pāli scholars from abroad to help on this project.

This happened a long time ago however, and Ven. Anilman cannot remember when he spoke about this, because it was a personal conversation, not a all a public Dhamma sermon. But then he saw his account in the newspaper in the past days about several issues, in which the mass media incorrectly described his academic position. He felt very shocked with the events happening and the communication and spreading of news, to which he never gave his cooperation.

Currently Ven. Anilman is trying to find information on what happened, and whether there is someone trying to discredit Wat Phra Dhammakāya, and clearly using Ven. Anilman's name and involving him. Ven. Anilman therefore informed Wat Phra Dhammakāya about these matters, to prevent any widespread misunderstanding from arising. He also requested to inform Luang Phor Dattajīvo, the vice-abbot of Wat Phra Dhammakāya, about the fact that he is being used in an attempt at slander. On the date mentioned in the news paper, he was not even in Thailand.

I have already suggested elsewhere on this forum that we, as Buddhists discussing the Dhamma and Vinaya of the Blessed One, should refer to the Dhamma and Vinaya as our principles of judgment, and not take unreliable sources like news articles uncritically. Whether the people writing these articles themselves are practicing Buddhists, we do not even know. Why then would we take their judgment for granted, in judging our fellow Buddhist practitioners, also sons of the Blessed One, and therefore our own brothers and sisters? This is not in accordance with what the Blessed One has taught us.

Living as a bhikkhu in Wat Phra Dhammakāya, I have regular conversations with some of the people involved in this project, and I can personally confirm the statements given above: Wat Phra Dhammakāya has no intention whatsoever to rewrite the Tipiṭaka, or to distort the Buddha's teaching in any way. To do so would be of not benefit to ourselves, nor to Buddhism at large. The main purpose of Wat Phra Dhammakāya is, and has always been, to provide training to bhikkhus and the society at large, and to develop a wat to accomplish such purposes.

I hope that this has provided clarity and understanding.

With metta,

Phra Sander (khemadhammo).

He stopped and called out to the Blessed One: "Stop, recluse! Stop, recluse!""I have stopped, Angulimāla, you stop too."(M ii.100) http://www.meditationthai.org

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

I have discussed the issue with some scholars working in Thailand and abroad on Tipitaka texts and they also expressed doubts whether those scholars (especially from Sri Lanka) would risk their professional reputation if they intentionally falsified the texts. This is what I wrote:

So it really seems to be some shady power games being played out through the media: Ven. Anil Sakya denies ever having given such an interview to journalists and is wondering why they are now referring to him in this connection. He just remembers talking to some students about the Dhammakaya Tipitaka project some time ago and saying that it is good if they study carefully what is written in the Tipitaka. He is actually now in America and only heard from friends in Thailand that this news appeared in the newspapers.

(We can only speculate what goes on behind the scenes in terms of Thai Sangha politics, but there must be a reason why someone released this information at this point.)

Whatever the case may be, the scholars just review the different manuscripts and create a database, and then their job is finished. After that the Dhammakaya people themselves can decide which readings to adopt (they can claim that they are "more original" due to being based on "oldest surviving manuscripts" from Northern Thailand -- which, it turns out, are full of scribe errors and obvious mistakes) and use them to support their teachings. It may be for example some more obscure passages in the Udana or similar ones that I am thinking of.

If you don't know, there is a parallel project going on in Thailand, namely the World Tipitaka project, which is obviously in competition with the Dhammakaya project. These people are particularly anxious to introduce this edition as the standard Tipitaka edition which has been approved by an international committee of monk-scholars at the 6th council (Sangayana) in Burma in 1956:

I don't wish to keep this matter going, it seems to be quite settled now but I do need to know one thing.Regardless of whether or not Dhammakaya are actually going to change the word Anatta, what would the translation of atta equate too?I have heard mention of the fact that they would want to teach Nibanna as the "real self", how could this be accomplised by changing Anatta to atta?

Surely anyone with more than a cursory understanding of the Budhism would know Anatta is one of the central tennets. In schools they teach kids a basic understanding of Buddhism via contrast; that, unlike all other religions, Buddhism denies a permanent unchanging essence or self.

Atta is flour in Hindi (?)

Here where a thousandcaptains swore grand conquestTall grasses their monument.

I have discussed the issue with some scholars working in Thailand and abroad on Tipitaka texts and they also expressed doubts whether those scholars (especially from Sri Lanka) would risk their professional reputation if they intentionally falsified the texts. This is what I wrote:

So it really seems to be some shady power games being played out through the media: Ven. Anil Sakya denies ever having given such an interview to journalists and is wondering why they are now referring to him in this connection. He just remembers talking to some students about the Dhammakaya Tipitaka project some time ago and saying that it is good if they study carefully what is written in the Tipitaka. He is actually now in America and only heard from friends in Thailand that this news appeared in the newspapers.

(We can only speculate what goes on behind the scenes in terms of Thai Sangha politics, but there must be a reason why someone released this information at this point.)

I am not sure what you mean by a reason, bhante. I do think that there are many people in positions of power in Thailand that don't need that much reason for slander and causing dissension. The Tipiṭaka project has just started, so that provides a good reason. Sadly, as you probably know, many people enjoy reading negative news about monks and wats -- it makes for good sensationalist news. The news on Wat Phra Dhammakāya is just some part of it. There is other negative news about gay monks, monks visiting prostitutes, etc., etc. One wonders whether there is not anything positive about Buddhism to write.

Whatever the case may be, the scholars just review the different manuscripts and create a database, and then their job is finished. After that the Dhammakaya people themselves can decide which readings to adopt (they can claim that they are "more original" due to being based on "oldest surviving manuscripts" from Northern Thailand -- which, it turns out, are full of scribe errors and obvious mistakes) and use them to support their teachings. It may be for example some more obscure passages in the Udana or similar ones that I am thinking of

.

There seems to be a misunderstanding about the teaching that Nibbāna is attā. Some people seem to think that the wat has come up with a new teaching, and that is a major goal of the wat to convey this to the world. In fact, whether Nibbāna is attā or anattā is a debate that has been going on for a long time already, and there are scholars and traditions within Theravāda supporting both viewpoints. It is not of Wat Phra Dhammakāya's interest to promote and spread the intellectual study about Nibbāna being attā. Luang Phor Dhammajayo, the wat's abbot, feels that is a question that can only be resolved by meditation practice and attainment, and each practitioner will have to discover these things by himself. There is no need to discuss about it much, for Nibbāna is something that cannot be understood intellectually.

It is quite common for any Buddhist meditation tradition, especially those which become well-known only recently, to try to find any evidence in the Tipiṭaka to support the teaching. For example, Mahasi Sayadaw's approach to vipassanā has been criticized by some scholars. Some scholar-practitioners therefore try to provide more evidence for their approach from the Tipiṭaka. Similarly, some forest tradition monks write about why samatha and vipassanā should be practiced simultaneously, in defense of their tradition.

Similarly, Wat Phra Dhammakāya does want to find out whether there is any evidence in the scriptures that support the meditation technique that is taught in the wat, that is the meditation technique of Luang Pu Sod Candasaro. But at the same time the people in our wat recognize that this maybe possible only to some extent, because the nature of meditation techniques is that they can only be partly be supported by scriptural evidence. The details of the technique are part of oral tradition, that which has been passed down from teacher to student.

The main purpose of the project, as said, is therefore to promote Buddhist scholarship and study, and for this purpose to cooperate with scholars from other countries. It is quite normal for any wat with an interest in pariyatti to want to promote such activities and to look for ways to cooperate with scholars from abroad.

It would be better if we focus our awareness on solving the problems that Buddhism faces in the present day. The number of monks Thailand is stronlgy declining, wats have no more monks and are left behind, monks in the South of Thailand cannot go on alsmround without risking their lives, etc. It would seem better to me if we just concentrate and work together to solve problems, rather than being led by misunderstandings that are spread around by the media.In the Dhamma,Phra Sander Khemadhammo.

He stopped and called out to the Blessed One: "Stop, recluse! Stop, recluse!""I have stopped, Angulimāla, you stop too."(M ii.100) http://www.meditationthai.org

Yes, I agree that the negative news about monks in Thailand is on the increase all the time and the faith of the lay people is declining. See for example this article that just appeared:

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... 14,0,0,1,0Thailand: Bogus monks exploit BuddhismThe Bangkok Post, March 26, 2011While many saffron-robed foreigners are genuinely interested in studying religion, some are entering Thailand illegally to beg for money from the public

(Actually I know a Thai lady who goes to teach them Thai language for free every week and also the abbot of the temple seems to be very active in promoting true Buddhist values, but by being too outspoken some of the politicians probably dislike him and so the temple becomes target for such a crackdown.)

And as you say, every meditation tradition will try to find evidence for their particular method in the Tipitaka. There is nothing new or strange about that.

Some groups therefore feel that it is better to start not with meditation, but rather with learning the teachings in the Suttas and "straightening out one's views". These kind of teachers are actually becoming more popular these days in Thailand and have a large following of educated urban Thais. So there is some hope for Buddhism...

Yes, I agree that the negative news about monks in Thailand is on the increase all the time and the faith of the lay people is declining. See for example this article that just appeared:

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... 14,0,0,1,0Thailand: Bogus monks exploit BuddhismThe Bangkok Post, March 26, 2011While many saffron-robed foreigners are genuinely interested in studying religion, some are entering Thailand illegally to beg for money from the public

(Actually I know a Thai lady who goes to teach them Thai language for free every week and also the abbot of the temple seems to be very active in promoting true Buddhist values, but by being too outspoken some of the politicians probably dislike him and so the temple becomes target for such a crackdown.)

That's another sad example, bhante. This kind of news is appearing very frequent, and it very much influences public opinion. One of the reasons why the media can do this, I think, is that the Thai Saṅgha is strongly divided within, and therefore cannot actively respond to this kind of news.

And as you say, every meditation tradition will try to find evidence for their particular method in the Tipitaka. There is nothing new or strange about that.

Some groups therefore feel that it is better to start not with meditation, but rather with learning the teachings in the Suttas and "straightening out one's views". These kind of teachers are actually becoming more popular these days in Thailand and have a large following of educated urban Thais. So there is some hope for Buddhism...

Yes, I think that in these things it is important to strike a good balance. It is interesting to observe that in the traditional teaching on the ten bases of meritorious deeds, straightening out one's views can be found together with giving, moral discipline and mental development/meditation. This shows that there many kinds of virtues/goodness in Buddhism, and that the traditional advice certainly is to find a proper balance between them all.In the Dhamma,Phra Sander.

He stopped and called out to the Blessed One: "Stop, recluse! Stop, recluse!""I have stopped, Angulimāla, you stop too."(M ii.100) http://www.meditationthai.org