--- Log opened Tue Feb 28 01:46:42 2006
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11:01 < mammadori> hi panthera
11:01 < mammadori> fine?
11:02 hi marco
11:02 sure, thanks
11:02 < mammadori> nice
11:03 read your post to the list, you were faster than me :)
11:03 < mammadori> just stubbed first page of wiki
11:03 < mammadori> :-)
11:03 brb
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11:06 < panthera> damn
11:06 < panthera> i'm too stupid
11:06 < mammadori> why?
11:06 < mammadori> brb me too btw, 10 minutes
11:07 < panthera> i just created #debian-live a few days ago on irc.oftc.net
11:07 < panthera> but i'm too stupid to join it, instead I was joining on freenode, because irssi has default server-window to freenode here
11:08 < mammadori> I prefer freenet too
11:08 < mammadori> could we stick here?
11:08 < mammadori> s/freenet/freenode
11:08 < panthera> ok.. let me change the things
11:08 < panthera> can you please leave here for a moment, I need to be op to register
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11:45 wb
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11:45 < panthera> btw, i suggest you write always 'we' instead of 'i' in the wiki, i changed in once already.
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12:33 < sto> Hi
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13:18 < panthera> hi sto
13:35 < sto> hi
13:35 < sto> panthera: are you subscribed to debian-custom@l.d.o?
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13:53 < panthera> sto: yep
13:54 < panthera> i read it for about 1.5years now
13:56 < sto> I just sent a message
14:13 < panthera> sto: i am not familiar enough with cdd, i just read the ml in the past without active action taken.
14:14 < panthera> however, we need to have first somewhat of a plan how things should/can be handled
14:14 < sto> Yes, sure
14:15 < tzafrir> are you talking about cdd or debian-live
14:15 < tzafrir> ?
14:15 < panthera> i think, cddt can be reused in some or the other way, so it is definitely of interest.
14:15 < sto> The Debian Live proposal is quite similar to things already discussed on the CDD list some time ago
14:15 < panthera> so i personally suggest, you upload the splitted packages.
14:16 < panthera> it's better to have one smaller thing more or less working than a bigger one which is not.
14:16 < sto> I'll probably do that, but I wanted some feedback first
14:16 < sto> Yes, that is the idea
14:17 < tzafrir> I've just asked on #debian-devel, and gonna ask here: any decent framework that allows me to use a local packages source for my own packages without requiring a full local debian mirror?
14:18 < sto> why do you need a debian mirror to have your packages?
14:18 < tzafrir> Because without that cdd is of no good for me, and I simply can't find what exactly needs fixing for that to work
14:18 < panthera> put them into a directory and create indices with apt-ftparchive?
14:18 < panthera> for what work?
14:18 < sto> I'm sorry but I miss what's your problem
14:19 < tzafrir> panthera, this is what I do today. But it onvolves much manual work
14:19 < sto> To keep partial mirrors you can use debpartial-mirror or reprepro, if that is what toy want
14:19 < tzafrir> debpartial-mirror is horribly slow.
14:19 < sto> Then use reprepro and filters
14:20 < sto> That is what I used for LliureX
14:20 < tzafrir> I'm checking reprepro now. Basically I want to keep a big repository with all versions of the local packages (for various branches)
14:21 < sto> Ah, then maybe reprepro is not the answer... unless each branch is a repo, of course
14:21 < panthera> i would do it in an extra dist anyway, let's say stable-unofficial or whatever you prefere
14:21 < tzafrir> sto, this can give me index files. But I can't just copy all of the packages to the installation media
14:21 < panthera> and pinning it over default with 550
14:22 < tzafrir> reprepro does seem like the way to go, but I'm not sure where to go next.
14:23 < sto> If you explain what you want maybe I can help, I used reprepro to build the package pool merging debian and my own pools
14:23 < tzafrir> I have a number of packages in debian I have modified and rebuilt. A number of others are new (and require other packages from main)
14:24 < sto> OK, if it is only that reprepro can work
14:24 < tzafrir> How do I tell debian-cd to get all the packages it needs for my short list of packages?
14:24 < sto> Use the tools included on the cddt ;)
14:24 < tzafrir> or any debian-cd replacement/wrapper
14:24 < tzafrir> sto, does it support multiple apt sources?
14:25 < tzafrir> it=cddt
14:25 < sto> What I did is to build a pool with the packages I want using reprepro
14:25 < sto> No, it is done using reprepro
14:25 < sto> I was going to do it with debpartial-mirror, but I used reprepro
14:26 < sto> The cddt is only used to build the list of packages needed
14:26 < sto> with the list of packages I use a fake-apt program
14:26 < sto> Than builds the list of packages I need to be able to install my packages
14:26 < sto> And generates a filter for reprepro
14:27 < sto> The fake-apt uses multiple apt sources
14:27 < sto> And reprepro uses the same sources to get the files, using the generated filter
14:28 < sto> tzafrir: is that what you need/want?
14:28 < tzafrir> sounds like something that should work
14:28 < sto> tzafrir: it worked for LliureX
14:28 < tzafrir> However I need to see how to make it reproducable...
14:29 < sto> Reproducible? My system is still running all days, it updates a sarge based distribution adding new security updates when needed
14:30 < sto> A cron job downloads the CDD description, builds the fake-apt environment, calculates the filters and calls reprero
14:31 < sto> if a package is updated on debian, debian-security or my local pool it is updated
14:31 < sto> And if you want you can build an updated installer using the resulting pool
14:33 < panthera> /msg chanserv set #debian-live topiclock off
14:33 < panthera> hrm
14:34 < sto> panthera: no topic
14:34 < sto> ;)
14:35 < panthera> i know.. i have cs
14:35 < panthera> hrm, hate
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14:37 < panthera> now, should work
14:38 -!- panthera changed the topic of #debian-live to: live.debian.net -- we are at planning stage..
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14:40 < bfree> hi all ... I see you are considering using casper (and hence mandatory unionfs) ... have you considered the kanotix style and/or it's code from http://svn.berlios.de/viewcvs/fullstory ?
14:41 < panthera> i don't know kanotix, do they use casper?
14:43 < bfree> no
14:44 < bfree> I guess you could say it is more like knoppix ... but it's diverged quite a bit from it (things like using debians original init) ... it's far closer to a true debian system (afaik) then any other livecd (well maybe dfs is more debian but it seems to be more of a fancy installer builder)
14:46 < sto> bfree: how does the systems detects hardware?
14:47 < sto> The good thing of casper is that the LiveCD should work with the same systems the debian-installer works
14:48 < panthera> yep, needs only two 'modifications': kernel must have squashfs/unionfs built-in, and casper (atm not in debian already) mustbe unboard
14:49 < sto> The kernel thing can be discussed with the kernel-team, and uploading casper is no problem, I guess
14:50 < bfree> casper preseeding from command line was broken anyway ... fabian franz was working before on doing a casper/debian blend and it was a little ugly/broken (and I haven't seen anyone else touch it since, though I might just not have noticed)
14:50 < tzafrir> however it is quite slow
14:50 < panthera> yep, therefore its the method I want to go for
14:50 < tzafrir> The ubuntu livecd takes too long to start
14:51 < bfree> casper is slow, asks lots of questions and has a hard dependency on unionfs (and unionfs stability is questionable)
14:51 < sto> tzafrir: but it works on multiple platforms, and Debian works on more platforms than Ubuntu
14:52 < bfree> the kanotix code is ok for x86 and amd64. I believe it is also regularly compiled and tested (and used to a degree) on sparc and ppc also
14:53 < sto> tzafrir: about speed, can't the system be fixed to skip hardware detection after the first run using an usb stick or the hard disk?
14:53 < sto> bfree: but which system does it use to detect hardware?
14:54 < bfree> udev/hal (was just double checking)
14:54 < bfree> well ... more exactly ... bfree: udev + custom routine for xserver detection in short
14:55 < sto> And how does it mount the rootfs? What does it use, squashfs?
14:55 < bfree> yes, squashfs
14:55 < sto> So the root filesystem is mounted readonly?
14:56 < bfree> yes ... you can use unionfs to make it writable if you want
14:56 < bfree> but it's optional
14:57 < sto> The problem is that if you don't use a writeable filesystem the programs have to be modified to work
14:57 < sto> at least some of them
14:57 < bfree> very little needs to be able to write, that data can be in ramdisk
14:58 < bfree> he's been very busy so I'm not sure how responsive he might be, but an email to Fabian Franz might give you some ideas of the problems to look out for going the casper route
14:58 < sto> The problem is that this means changing the installation, it is doable, but dirty IMHO
14:59 < sto> The installed system is different from the Live system, that is what I like from the casper idea
14:59 < sto> both are the same
15:00 < bfree> there is _virtually_ no difference between an install kanotix and a live kanotix (obviously an installed kanotix doesn't have a squashfs root ... unless you do a "poor mans install")
15:01 < sto> How is the Kanotix rootfs image built?
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15:02 < bfree> it's basically a debootstrap ... the live init script does all the live V installed changes (afaik)
15:03 < sto> And the Kanotix installation can be done using a debian-installer also?
15:03 < sto> Or is it done from the LiveCD?
15:04 < bfree> it is done from the livecd ... I would suspect (but I don't know) that you could install it by adding the kanotix sources to d-i
15:04 < sto> Ah, then you have some custom packages not in Debian?
15:05 < bfree> yes ... nearly exclusively "extra/optional" stuff for the livecd
15:09 < sto> Well, I suppose that the Debian LiveCD idea is to have something that works on as many systems as the debian-installer and detects the same hardware, if the kannotix system does that is is interesting also... I would like to know the problems with casper, anyway, as Ubuntu people seem to still use it
15:10 < panthera> (ack)
15:10 < tzafrir> BTW: I have recently set up a system to boot from usb
15:11 < tzafrir> I tried to build a kernel with USB built-in to avoid the need for an initrd. Wasn't good enough: usb was loaded, but too late
15:12 < tzafrir> I added a custom initrd that just waits for 5 seconds, and them I managed to boot from the root filesystem on the USB. Although on a slower disk 5 seconds weren't enough
15:13 < bfree> sto: the kanotix pool has an ssft package :-D
15:13 < sto> bfree: it will be in debian soon, it is in NEW
15:14 < sto> ;)
15:14 < sto> bfree: are you already using it?
15:15 < bfree> sto: I'm not sure anything is released using it ... the outline klik package in fullstory uses it (and I think some people have been testing it)
15:18 < sto> Good to know, if there is any bug please tell me ;)
15:20 < bfree> well ... we'll have to hack around the dialog detection somehow is about it at the minute (e.g. using zenity under kde is silly). never found a reliable way to detect an active kde env though (and forgotten the program I found for gnome though no doubt we'll figure it out again)
15:22 < tzafrir> btw: isn't gdialog more decent than zenity?
15:22 < bfree> that's for klik ... I don't know if slh/kanotix/fullstory will care about that so much (showstopper for probono from klik, though we can set that ourselves from outside ssft so it's not really that big an issue, just a piece of work we can't dump "upstream" to you :-P )
15:24 < sto> bfree: probably you can use environment variables, on GNOME you can use GNOME_DESKTOP_SESSION_ID
15:25 < bfree> gdialog is gnome 1.x? zenity includes a gdialog wrapper for legacy scripts
15:25 < sto> Yes, gdialog is gone, I believe
15:26 < bfree> sto: there's a program like "gnome-session" or similar that does exactly what we want (just gotta remember what it is)
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18:07 < panthera> kernel-build runs now.. if i just would have a faster notebook.. :)
18:11 < mz_work> how slow is it?
18:12 < panthera> 1.2ghz pentium-m
18:12 < panthera> (ibm x40)
18:15 < panthera> its fast enough for normal stuff, i don't complain; but for rebuilding the kernel-tree, it's slow.
18:26 < mammadori> panthera: did you patched linux-2.6-2.6.15 or just built a custom kernel?
18:28 < panthera> patched linux-2.6_2.6.15
18:29 < mammadori> just squashfs fixed version or also did the script to auto patch the source?
18:30 < mammadori> I have a good machine to build if you want I could give you an account (dualcore athlon 3800+)
18:30 < panthera> if you patch the linux-2.6_2.6.15 tree, all produced package contain the patch (incl. linux-source)
18:31 < panthera> hui.. fast machine..
18:31 < mammadori> Yes I know, I was talking about following the squashfs-source package
18:31 < panthera> following?
18:33 < mammadori> When a new squashfs-source is released we will need to manually patch and rebuild thing
18:34 < panthera> and how do you suggest to avoid that?
18:35 < mammadori> as I wrote in last mail, to have a script dl linux_*_* and squash-source that builds the new package, but we could do that in the future
18:37 < panthera> i did that
18:38 < panthera> missunderstanding.. i though you speak about *not* building the packages again, if newer squasfs is available, at all
18:38 < mammadori> oooh, nice then, will you put this in a separate repository, should we indicate that too on wiki?
18:39 < panthera> sure.. i'll write a 'kernel' site if i'm ready, aeh.. when my notebook is ready :)
18:40 < mammadori> :-)
18:42 < panthera> i can settup a cron-script which builds and uploads the packages automagically if they appear on ftp.d.o
18:42 < panthera> s/tt/t/
18:43 < mammadori> this is really better than in my dreams
18:44 < panthera> well, just temporary.. waldi said, there are chances to get squashfs into debian mainline kernels,
18:45 < panthera> assumed that linux upstreams are more or less persuaded of the quality of the squashfs-patches
18:45 < mammadori> this would be great, should we fill a wishlist bug?
18:45 < panthera> so, someone needs to find the respective lkml links and write some formal request
18:45 < panthera> no, not yet..
18:46 < mammadori> I see that squashfs is not 64 bit enabled, maybe they are waiting for that
18:46 < panthera> that should be just discussed on debian-kernel@l.d.o
18:46 < panthera> yep, i read something about some endian problems in the thread about mainline inclusion of last summer
18:50 < mammadori> yes, I saw that too, I will study a bit more casper and cdd, see you later or tomorrow (must go out tonight or I will go crazy)
18:50 < panthera> fine.. have fun ;)
19:45 < mammadori> I would like to study the daily build scripts for ubuntu-live, but I cannot find where they lies, any hint?
19:45 < mammadori> [19:41] I'm afraid they've never been published anywhere outside our buildds
19:45 < mammadori> 2 bad 4 us
19:45 < mammadori> :-(
20:04 < sto> mammadori: And they can't send them to you?
20:12 < panthera> iirc, but dont count that much of that, i have heard roumors that everything which was not first published elsewere
20:12 < panthera> is automatically proprietary to canonical, but i don't know if this is true.
20:25 < sto> It does not seem reasonable in this case, probably it is not published because the system that is being used is not documented enough or prepared to be modified and they prefer to keep some people away... in fact they tell people to remaster their LiveCDs instead of building them from scratch
20:26 < sto> But I'm sure we can prepare our own system easily, if all the pieces are available
20:27 < panthera> i just asked mithrandir, they need to get permission to release it, it's of low priority for them, so it will not happen that soon.
20:37 < sto> Well, we can build our own scripts if needed... it can't be so difficult, the remastering scripts are already available and the debian-installer used should be the Debian one, not the Ubuntu one
20:42 < panthera> sure.. i just hate those reinventing wheels things
20:42 < panthera> 'adjusting' ubuntu-scripts is more efficient than writing them from scratch.
20:43 < sto> I can't tell that without looking at them, maybe you are right, but sometimes a rewrite is faster
20:44 < sto> Mainly because I don't know how forked is the ubuntu installer related to the current debian installer
21:00 < mammadori> kamion was sorry to tell me that their scripts are not public yet, but gave me precious advices and an url
21:00 < mammadori> http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/archives/colin.watson%40canonical.com--2005/
21:01 < mammadori> you'll need to make sure to install casper, run update-initramfs and fish out the initrd produced by that
21:01 < mammadori> colin.watson@canonical.com--2005/debian-cd--ubuntu--0 at http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/archives/colin.watson@canonical.com--2005 includes some hacks to get the initrd onto the CD image, although that's the easy bit
21:01 < mammadori> you'll probably also want to install xresprobe and laptop-detect in the live filesystem to get X autoconfiguration
21:02 < mammadori> end of kamion quoting
21:02 < mammadori> tomorrow I'll work on that
21:02 < mammadori> c u soon, going out a bit
21:02 < panthera> mammadori: thank you ;)
21:05 < mammadori> here something, not too much http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/archives/colin.watson%40canonical.com--2005/debian-cd/debian-cd--ubuntu/debian-cd--ubuntu--0/patch-279/
21:06 < mammadori> panthera: np, bye!
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--- Log closed Wed Mar 01 00:00:00 2006