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Re: Corruption and Opulance in the Church

Hmmm I am curious. How come the thread I started questioning the over-bearance of Christianity-ism on these boards and the myth in general is 'closed for review' and yet none of the other threads about Christianity are? And where Mikey Love--who has quite a dominant presence here-- will suggest that gay people should not have sex, that seems alright and accepted in a gay community (but don't get me wrong. I would never ever secretly contact JUB to have YOUR threads closed I assure you. I have always supported freedom of speech and questioning). Can someone explain?

Is it because Christian JUB supporters have been complaining to the mods here about the conversation of the subject I initiated and they have successfully closed the thread and censored any challenges to their beliefs by others who don't share them?

I am having to speculate because other members participating in the thread were not considered before the thread was closed. There was no announcement by the moderator for their reasons for it to be closed 'for review' or anything, and so we have just been silenced and that seems to be that!
This reminds me of how these belief systems operate. IF they don't have the power to burn you at the stake for contradicting their cherished beliefs, or house arrest you, they will find other means to shut you up.

Re: Corruption and Opulance in the Church

How come the thread I started questioning the over-bearance of Christianity-ism on these boards and the myth in general is 'closed for review' and yet none of the other threads about Christianity are?

Is it because Christian JUB supporters have been complaining to the mods here about the conversation of the subject I initiated and they have successfully closed the thread and censored any challenges to their beliefs by others who don't share them?

The mods on this sub-forum appear to be mainly of the Christian persuasion and easily take at offence at criticism of that particular belief-system.

They only ever seem to close a thread when it starts to get interesting. This tends to be when the critics of Christianity outweigh the supporters and/or the Christian posters are clearly failing in their arguments.

The thread will be reopened mostly intact. There is a recurring problem of members taking discussions to a personal level, including the addition of insults that contravene the No-Flame designation of this sub-forum. It is entirely acceptable to disagree with the viewpoints expressed by other members; however, it is not okay to turn that into negative personal characterizations.

I don’t recall anyone reporting the thread, “whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?,” though perhaps it was reported somewhere along the way. I read every post in this sub-forum and observe each thread as the discussion develops. I generally try to be lenient and avoid excessive intrusion.

Originally Posted by HoodedRat

The mods on this sub-forum appear to be mainly of the Christian persuasion and easily take at offence at criticism of that particular belief-system.

They only ever seem to close a thread when it starts to get interesting. This tends to be when the critics of Christianity outweigh the supporters and/or the Christian posters are clearly failing in their arguments.

The discussions here do not constitute some type of competition or contest. It is a place to exchange information and ideas, without the interpersonal flaming. Topics are not limited to religion, but may include spirituality that is not based on religious concepts, and various other matters of philosophy or reasoning. Perhaps we need a new sticky to better explain.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

To answer your question, it comes down to three things: location, location and location.

Many skeptics fail to understand how ancient the roots of Christianity are, and they don't fully appreciate how centrally and crucially located The Levant was in the ancient world. Geographically, The Levant was at a cultural cross-roads. Ugarit in particular was an important ancient Phoenician port. More important, though, was how Levantine culture contributed to the development of the modern written word known to the West.

Ancient Phoenician script was a crucial development in modern phonetic alphabets. Although it still contained hieroglyphic elements, as you would discover remain in Hebrew and other daughter scripts, it had the important quality of being capable of transcribing sounds. Please, try to appreciate the enormity of this. This was huge. The Greek alphabet, which is based on the Phoenician alphabet, has been used to write some of the most influential works in Western history.

Now, I have a theory that at least some of the works of the Old Testament might have originally been written in ancient Phoenician, though some of the writings, such as Proverbs, might actually go back to ancient Sumer. The Book of Proverbs does resemble ancient Sumerian wisdom literature, and it reads somewhat similarly to the Instructions of Shuruppak. In any case, it would not be far-fetched due to the references in the Book of Job and others to some ancient Ugaritic figures (Ugarit was an ancient Phoenician port in The Levant).

Equally important, though, is the heritage of the Book of Genesis, also known as the Bereshit. The Bereshit has figures and events in it that correspond with actual events in ancient times. For example, the flood story seems to correspond with the eruption at Thera in about the 1500's BCE. You must understand how much of a scar this eruption left on the ancient Levant. The flood would have been immense, and it would have wiped out entire civilizations. It took centuries for even the ancient Egyptians to recover from it, and their antediluvian zoomorphic gods were almost lost to our culture, which would have been a tragedy.

In any case, there might have been religions more ancient than those of the ancient Hebrews, but they were probably one of the earliest cultures to actually transcribe their records into this new form of writing. Therefore, they ended up being disproportionately influential in the ancient world and beyond due to the advantage that this gave them.

As for Christianity in particular, the Gospels actually have a particularly attractive message. If you have not read them, then I suggest that you do. Their contents are actually genuinely heartwarming.

On the other hand, I honestly don't know how the Pauline Epistles even survived. Paul was a total dick by all accounts. He was a priggish, sanctimonious ass. He was a horrible misogynist, particularly if First Timothy is anything to go by. The only significance that he really has is that he was an important leader in the early Church, and he probably helped organize the Christians into a unified political force. Without him, the Christians might never have gained very much political power. They would have most likely fractured more than they eventually did anyway. He was still a complete boner, though. If I could go back in time to give that guy a swift kick in the nuts, I would.

Anyway, the book that is apparently the strangest is Revelation, and the question that many have asked throughout history is just how in the hell the damn thing got there. Well, it was originally written in Greek pidgin, and it was probably extremely popular among early Greek evangelists trying to appeal to ignorant working-class youth and twenty-somethings. It has a perverse sex appeal, and it was probably the Twilight of its time. Although it is essentially stroke material, it is actually fairly good stroke material when you get right down to it.

In any case, Westerners are really a lot more Pagan than they are Christian, even today. They may go to Church on Sundays, but they spend the rest of the week reading Lord of the Rings, which Tolkein based on the Poetic Eddas, and Twilight, which is descended from a literary tradition that has roots in ancient Frankish culture. The Iliad and the Odyssey are required reading, not the Bible. By comparison, the influence of Christianity has been pretty weak, and even Christianity itself has, in practice, been infested with Pagan rituals. There is nothing about Yule in the Bible, after all. Our Pagan traditions have a much stronger influence on how we think of the world and ourselves. Therefore, to say that Christianity is disproportionately influential would actually be false.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Why, because you argue it has ancient roots? Why should we respect it if it promotes homophobia? I choose that specifically because most of us at these forums are gay, and various diverse forms of what that may mean.
You seem to be well read about your favorite religion--though I don't necessarily agree with all you say--so does this mean you are a practicing Christian? And/or do you have gay friends who are Christians?

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Originally Posted by ludolfo

Why, because you argue it has ancient roots? Why should we respect it if it promotes homophobia? I choose that specifically because most of us at these forums are gay, and various diverse forms of what that may mean.
You seem to be well read about your favorite religion--though I don't necessarily agree with all you say--so does this mean you are a practicing Christian? And/or do you have gay friends who are Christians?

Actually, my favorite religion is that of ancient Ugarit.

As for the homophobia in Christianity, it is all Paul's fault. He was a misogynistic son of a bitch. If I could go back in time, I swear I would go back and kick that jerk in the nuts so hard....grrrrr. He was not even painted in an attractive light in the Bible. In every aspect of his character, he was an obscene prig and a jerk. If I could kick that guy's butt, I would pay money.

Anyway, Christianity did not create modern homophobia. People did. One of the earliest individuals to truly persecute gay people, in Christian Europe, was Theodosius I. That was the least of his crimes, but it did set a precedent that we are still untangling the consequences of today. Theodosius was not a nice man. St. Ambrose was generally appalled by him. However, Theodosius I ordered gay men to be sentenced to death by burning.

Earlier tyrants of Rome persecuted gay people, but some of those were not even clearly Christian. For example, Philip the Arab is considered by some thinkers to have been Christian, but this is really very dubious. One of his atrocities was the so-called "Secular Games," in which more than a thousand gladiators died as well as many ill-fated animals. One thing he tried to outlaw was male prostitution. He was not much of a Christian, though, even though Christianity was a very popular religion at the time.

No, I do not blame Christianity, per se, for homophobia. I blame evil men.

As for why I have respect for Christianity, I actually appreciate the fact that the Christians helped domesticate my Pagan ancestors. Although I am very proud of the traditions of my Pagan ancestors, their rituals involving human sacrifice had to go. Furthermore, Anglo-Saxon culture had annoying macho-ethics in which homosexuality was not unto itself an object of persecution, but the "receptive" partners were kicked around pretty badly and treated like dogs. As someone who is always the "receptive" partner in sex, I have a serious problem with that.

I find some present-day Christian sects to be utterly repulsive. That is different from my feelings about Christianity overall. Christianity is as divided about gay rights as society at large. And remember, because atheists are very much a minority, the majority of those who support gay rights are Christians, whether you like it or not.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Originally Posted by MikeyLove

This is an Atheist I can respect. How many Pagans/Neo-pagans can say the same thing this Atheist just stated. I have more respect for anyone who defends what they find good in all of Christianity, instead of trying to tear down an entire Institute for the wrong-doings of a few evil/sinful Leaders. The Church has had its Anti-Popes in History, even has had evil Bishops and Priests whose only concern is the gain of Temporal Powers. The Church did not have temporal powers til Pope Leo the Great (about 440 A.D.). I believe that the Church would have been very different today if it had not the Temporal Powers, though those powers are limited since the 1800's, also, the Church is not a Democracy.

Hey.

Take a look at Matthew 19, where Jesus speaks of Eunuchs in a positive light. In the culture your Jesus lived in, any man who was not potent with women was considered to be a eunuch, and this included many gay men. In fact, there were probably gay men among his followers. Furthermore, "sodomites" have, for most of history, been people who were rude and inhospitable to strangers. Your Jesus was not a homophobe by any stretch of the imagination.

And Paul the Apostle was a jerk. Seriously, I challenge you to sit down and read everything that man wrote. He was obviously tortured over whether or not he was genuine, and he was obviously a more-or-less well-meaning prig who was trying to do something decent. He was an imperfect man. If he could be summoned to our time, he would probably acknowledge that. He was literally the kind of person that you long to kick sand in his face, alright? This is not to say he did not do noble things in his lifetime.

Now, if you really read the Old Testament, you will eventually realize that many of the books in it, including the parts known in some traditions as the Pentateuch, are not entirely composed of wonderful ideas. For example, there is a place in Deuteronomy that suggests condemning people who were bastard children or descended from someone who was a bastard child, condemning a person for the sins not only of his parents but of his ancestors going back 10 generations. I will leave it to you to find where this is. If you have literacy in the Bible, it is plain that certain parts of it are ancient records that, although they were not laws uttered by a divine spirit, are a cultural treasure.

And that perspective is what distinguishes a secular humanist from someone who is merely an atheist.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

If you would consider the proceedings of the Nuremberg Trials a "cultural treasure" then we agree on the vocabulary. The texts of christendom really do document the most terrible and gruesome conduct done in the name of the faith, and even unflinchingly give it a divine blush, attributing much of the cruelty to the actual hand of god.

In the sense that it records an ever-receding depravity of the human condition, it is a precious resource. But I might say I'm wary of it rather than respectful of it; the latter word is too likely to be taken as an indicator of esteem or as an endorsement.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Originally Posted by bankside

If you would consider the proceedings of the Nuremberg Trials a "cultural treasure" then we agree on the vocabulary. The texts of christendom really do document the most terrible and gruesome conduct done in the name of the faith, and even unflinchingly give it a divine blush, attributing much of the cruelty to the actual hand of god.

In the sense that it records an ever-receding depravity of the human condition, it is a precious resource. But I might say I'm wary of it rather than respectful of it; the latter word is too likely to be taken as an indicator of esteem or as an endorsement.

The Pentateuch is actually very interesting. I find it to be a lot more interesting than later writings, and I pay it a lot more attention.

Now, as to whether I would have people live their entire lives in accordance with the writings of the Pentateuch, let me give you this gem right here:

From Numbers 5...

11 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

12 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,

13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner;

14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:

15 Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance.

16 And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the Lord:

17 And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:

18 And the priest shall set the woman before the Lord, and uncover the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:

19 And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:

20 But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:

21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The Lord make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the Lord doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;

22 And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.

23 And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water:

24 And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.

25 Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman's hand, and shall wave the offering before the Lord, and offer it upon the altar:

26 And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.

27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.

28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.

29 This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;

30 Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the Lord, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.

31 Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.

When I say that it is a cultural treasure, I do not mean that we ought to follow it as our law. I mean simply that it is a cultural treasure. There are pieces of history in it that can give us incredibly valuable insights as to who we are. My respect for this book is immense.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Originally Posted by Brian Smith

Actually, my favorite religion is that of ancient Ugarit.

As for the homophobia in Christianity, it is all Paul's fault. He was a misogynistic son of a bitch. If I could go back in time, I swear I would go back and kick that jerk in the nuts so hard....grrrrr. He was not even painted in an attractive light in the Bible. In every aspect of his character, he was an obscene prig and a jerk. If I could kick that guy's butt, I would pay money.

Anyway, Christianity did not create modern homophobia. People did. One of the earliest individuals to truly persecute gay people, in Christian Europe, was Theodosius I. That was the least of his crimes, but it did set a precedent that we are still untangling the consequences of today. Theodosius was not a nice man. St. Ambrose was generally appalled by him. However, Theodosius I ordered gay men to be sentenced to death by burning.

Earlier tyrants of Rome persecuted gay people, but some of those were not even clearly Christian. For example, Philip the Arab is considered by some thinkers to have been Christian, but this is really very dubious. One of his atrocities was the so-called "Secular Games," in which more than a thousand gladiators died as well as many ill-fated animals. One thing he tried to outlaw was male prostitution. He was not much of a Christian, though, even though Christianity was a very popular religion at the time.

No, I do not blame Christianity, per se, for homophobia. I blame evil men.

As for why I have respect for Christianity, I actually appreciate the fact that the Christians helped domesticate my Pagan ancestors. Although I am very proud of the traditions of my Pagan ancestors, their rituals involving human sacrifice had to go. Furthermore, Anglo-Saxon culture had annoying macho-ethics in which homosexuality was not unto itself an object of persecution, but the "receptive" partners were kicked around pretty badly and treated like dogs. As someone who is always the "receptive" partner in sex, I have a serious problem with that.

I find some present-day Christian sects to be utterly repulsive. That is different from my feelings about Christianity overall. Christianity is as divided about gay rights as society at large. And remember, because atheists are very much a minority, the majority of those who support gay rights are Christians, whether you like it or not.

But I am an atheist, just to be clear.

Actually the homophobia comes from the old testament in Leviticus.

As for modern homophobia, Christianity did not create homophobia but it spread homophobia across the Western world. As for humans sacrifice this was a rare thing in the European Pagan world. In fact the Old Testament are full of examples of human sacrifice to Yahweh. Also I wouldn't say that Christianity "domesticated" the Pagan world because in reality it tought them religious intolerance, sex and body hatred as well as extreme sexism and homophobia. Also as for the Anglo-Saxons from my research I don't think that receptive partners were treated like dogs as much as they were basically considered on the same level as women and thus did not have the full rights of a man.

I am aware that many Christians support gay rights however Christianity and all of the Abrahamic religions are springs of homophobia.

Originally Posted by Coward92

If it would be allowed to send a message that is only 2 letters long it would be "No".
And furthermore if you remain willfully blind to the good things that your opposition stands for (and this was a very important part of my earlier post) you are also a fanatic.

In actuality I think it is very possible to not respect your enemies and not underestimate your enemies. For instance if you don't respect them you realize that they are capable of anything. So any low down or cruel move they commit will never surprise you.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Originally Posted by Mariatenebre

Actually the homophobia comes from the old testament in Leviticus.

Leviticus is actually a very fascinating book.

Christianity did not create homophobia but it spread homophobia across the Western world.

It was already there. Ancient Europe was an extremely misogynistic culture, for the most part, and "passive" male homosexuals got very short shrift.

As for humans sacrifice this was a rare thing in the European Pagan world.

It was actually more common than you think, and so was slavery. Also, the ancient Pagans were often incredibly racist. Pagan Europe was not some fine utopia that Christianity rudely intruded upon. The truth about its history is a lot more complicated.

The rivals of Christianity did not just sit there quietly and peacefully. Try to comprehend in your mind a Europe in which there was not only Christianity, but there were many other religions there that were competing for absolute dominance. Each was literally intent on trouncing all other religions out of existence. This includes Tengrism, which was at one time a very strong contender for dominance in parts of Europe. The Pagans were not helpless cupcakes by any stretch of the imagination. They fought long and hard, and they were not intent on staying nicely in one place.

Now, as for how homosexuality was treated by the Anglo-Saxons, how it was treated in practice probably varied with the time period, but it was actually a crime in early Germanic law. According to Tacitus, those condemned for homosexuality, cowardice or infamy were thrown into a bog or something similar. This was before Christianity really took root in that culture.

It was actually a philosophical movement that really led to gay people being persecuted so widely, though. Under the idea of individuals like Thomas Aquinas, many governments outlawed a number of things that were deemed "unnatural," and homosexuality was on the list. This was not a theological movement as much as it was a philosophical movement in the context of a culture that was largely dominated by Christianity.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

and Brian Smith, it seems to me you thinks you know it all, and are 'teaching' us what history really was. Seems a bit arrogant to me. You provide no sources for these 'truth's you are expounding here.

Actually all of this you are putting out is your interpretation. I hope you can accept this?

What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte

What matters now is Christian homophopbia, and how the myth of Christianity has caused so much misery in the world. You miss all this out in your praise of it. I am not accepting your version of history. It does not gell with mine.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

I am also just expressing my opinion also. I in no way whatsoever am suggesting he shouldn't express his. But it could appear that what he is claiming is 'it'--'the real low-down of history', and I don't think it is. For a start 'paganism' was diverse. It isn't 'paganism' versus the Church, and also the Church has many denominations also.
There is a scholar who claims he follows authentic Gnosticism, John Lamb Lash, who is scathing about Christianity because he says it was so very violent and suppressive against the Pagan Mysteries. I agree with some of what he says regarding his criticism of Christianity, but not his making out the Gnostic myth is THE truth we now must look to. I also think there is a big difference between his meaning of 'learned' Paganism and the more rural indigenous 'countrydwelling' (a definition of 'paganism') kind. So I am just saying it is not just 'paganism' one side and 'Christianity' on the other.
I am more interested in NOW--but of course also understand the important of knowing roots. This is why I like to look at etymology of terms even, because often we use words and are blind to their roots and how their meaning has been hijacked by propagandists.

Christianity is based on fear
Christianity preys on the innocent
Christianity is based on dishonesty
Christianity is extremely egocentric
Christianity breeds arrogance, a chosen-people mentality
Christianity breeds authoritarianism
Christianity is cruel
Christianity is anti-intellectual, anti-scientific
Christianity has a morbid, unhealthy preoccupation with sex
Christianity produces sexual misery
Christianity has an exceedingly narrow, legalistic view of morality
Christianity encourages acceptance of real evils while focusing on imaginary evils
Christianity depreciates the natural world
Christianity models hierarchical, authoritarian organization
Christianity sanctions slavery
Christianity is misogynistic
Christianity is homophobic
The Bible is not a reliable guide to Christ's teachings
The Bible is riddled with contradictions
Christianity borrowed its central myths and ceremonies from other ancient religions

1. Christianity is based on fear. While today there are liberal clergy who preach a gospel of love, they ignore the bulk of Christian teachings, not to mention the bulk of Christian history. Throughout almost its entire time on Earth, the motor driving Christianity has been—in addition to the fear of death—fear of the devil and fear of hell. One can only imagine how potent these threats seemed prior to the rise of science and rational thinking, which have largely robbed these bogeys of their power to inspire terror. But even today, the existence of the devil and hell are cardinal doctrinal tenets of almost all Christian creeds, and many fundamentalist preachers still openly resort to terrorizing their followers with lurid, sadistic portraits of the suffering of nonbelievers after death. This is not an attempt to convince through logic and reason; it is not an attempt to appeal to the better nature of individuals; rather, it is an attempt to whip the flock into line through threats, through appeals to a base part of human nature—fear and cowardice. ff

THAT is also Christian history. I trained as an artist and whilst doing so I met two middle-aged women who didn't know each other, and both had had mastectomies, and both without any lead from me, claimed their disease was brought about though Catholic guilt!

I notice in the list of contents is presumes there actually was a 'Jesus Christ'. So I also question that premise, because there exists no historical evidence for that assertion. I cannot ignore that. Like I have said elsewhere, maybe not here, that say someone experiences seeing 'Jesus' in a Near Death Experience, or psychedelic experience, etc, I am not going to discount their experience. That is the way they are interpreting it, and these experiences can be deeply healing. But I am also going to question them, and I feel this inspires me and others to go deeper. The mystery is depthless.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Originally Posted by ludolfo

and Brian Smith, it seems to me you thinks you know it all, and are 'teaching' us what history really was. Seems a bit arrogant to me. You provide no sources for these 'truth's you are expounding here.

Well, I realize that most people aren't interested in reading about the history of the Khazars, but I think it is relevant that the Khazars actually sought out converting their people to an Abrahamic religion in order to improve their political standing, and I think it is relevant that the Tengrism that they converted from was not always a very nice religion in actual practice.

And there were other major religious groups that were competing for dominance. They were often cruel, often hideously so. The Christians were just a major player in a very filthy game. They didn't invent it. In a kinder world, they might have been less cruel.

What matters now is Christian homophopbia, and how the myth of Christianity has caused so much misery in the world. You miss all this out in your praise of it. I am not accepting your version of history. It does not gell with mine.

I acknowledge that the Catholic Church has often been on the wrong side of history, though. I don't refute your views, per se. I just have a different context for understanding the subject.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

And it is so because of its mythology is my context:

The Apostles Creed

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.

And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting.

AMEN.

The Nicene Creed

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father; through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven, he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried.

On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father [and the Son], who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified.

He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

The Chalcedonian Creed (Definition)

Following, then, the holy fathers, we unite in teaching all men to confess the one and only Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. This selfsame one is perfect both in deity and in humanness; this selfsame one is also actually God and actually man, with a rational soul and a body. He is of the same reality as God as far as his deity is concerned and of the same reality as we ourselves as far as his humanness is concerned; thus like us in all respects, sin only excepted. Before time began he was begotten of the Father, in respect of his deity, and now in these "last days," for us and behalf of our salvation, this selfsame one was born of Mary the virgin, who is God-bearer in respect of his humanness.

We also teach that we apprehend this one and only Christ-Son, Lord, only-begotten in two natures; and we do this without confusing the two natures, without transmuting one nature into the other, without dividing them into two separate categories, without contrasting them according to area or function. The distinctiveness of each nature is not nullified by the union. Instead, the "properties" of each nature are conserved and both natures concur in one "person" and in one reality. They are not divided or cut into two persons, but are together the one and only and only-begotten Word of God, the Lord Jesus Christ. Thus have the prophets of old testified; thus the Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us; thus the Symbol of Fathers has handed down to us.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Originally Posted by MikeyLove

Nope! it is exactly what all Christians are supposed to believe in with out any doubts whatsoever.

Well, that depends on how far you are inclined to take the universalist doctrine, and there are movements, like the Moravians, that hold the belief that all souls will eventually be reconciled somehow to God.

Really, I strongly recommend looking into the Moravians. Their belief is essentially that God will get everything sorted out somehow, and their motive for worship is to rejoice in how wonderful this is. They are also a charming combination of old-time values and a traditional, time-honored liberal streak. They are strong believers in education. In college towns, their entire congregations are doctors, professors and other members of the intelligentsia. They tend to be really keen folk, and I actually genuinely admire them.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Originally Posted by MikeyLove

Nope! it is exactly what all Christians are supposed to believe in with out any doubts whatsoever.

I was actually asking Brian, but all can answer this and you have--not that I am surprised with your answer. I know you believe it like it is THE 'truth'. Like you say you are "supposed" to believe it and have no "doubts". I see this as very rigid, and it seems you have given up all your freedom to question to this chosen belief system.
So, for anyone to place a little doubt in you must be seen by you as close to your "Devil" or the very Devil himself, right?

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Originally Posted by MikeyLove

Nope! it is exactly what all Christians are supposed to believe in with out any doubts whatsoever.

I can not even begin to comprehend how a person could be so content with not thinking for themselves. To say something like this is to check your personal intellect at the door. Doubt and question is what advances knowledge; unquestioning obedience only propagates the ideas given by authority, regardless of merit or truth.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Originally Posted by MikeyLove

Wrong! I will have nothing to do with the Father of all lies, Satan, Lucifer, the Devil, whatever you like to call him.

Mikey, have you ever actually read the read the bible? The 'father of all lies' and falsehood, is clearly the old testament's premier deity. As early as Genesis chapter 2 he begins lying to Adam and Eve, and as the various tales of the OT unfold the true depths of his dishonest nature are revealed.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Originally Posted by Coward92

Wow... Because you never act like Mr. Know-It-All. Arrogant eh?

And just by the way I think if we are talking about his very own people we can trust his expertise about their history, you know.

And let me ask you this:
Only Christian homophobia matters to you?
What about homphobia amongst atheists? What about homphobia amongst the members of other religions?
Why don't you confront Islam?

Whether Crhistianity is a good influence is debatable, but I think saying that it is plain wrong or plain good is stupid and tells of very limited immature perspective.

Homophobia among Christians comes about largely as a result of Christian teachings from the likes of the nearly departed Herr Ratzinger, who holds that being born naturally gay is actually "objectively disordered" and that the highest sign of character in a gay person is to sacrifice and suppress the inherent and natural potential to find fulfilment in the company of another gay person, allowing the emotional and physical capacity for love to wither into a hollow shell, in the name of obedience to an imaginary divinity. It is contemptible.

In comparison, no atheist philosopher has ever said "There is no God, thus homosexuality is wrong."

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Originally Posted by Coward92

You still don't get my point.
Homophobia is not a religion-specific phenomena. It would exist even is there were no religions at all.
Atheists craft their own "arguments" to justify their hatred for homosexuality and gay people.

Plus we are not talking about philosophers here, we are talking about simple everyday normal people.

I however agree, that homophobia is strengthened by the Catholic Church, I just hate the naivety which makes some people believe that if the Catholic Church would disappear all their problems would be suddenly solved. They wouldn't.
People would still hate gays.

Okay let's talk about something else then: driving a car.

Within Catholicism, there is no creed that obliges Catholics to hold the steering wheel at the "10 and 2" position. Nor revelation about how long to indicate before a lane change. Nothing from the hierarchy or the most careful thinkers of the church is directly related to the functional task of driving. "God is my Co-pilot" bumper stickers on the back of rusted-out Fords do not count.

Similarly, there is no atheist philosopher or writer who has ever said "There is no God thus it follows that we must always shoulder-check." Again, a Volkswagen with an "Evolve Fish" bumper sticker is ruled out.

We can I hope agree that the particulars of driving are derived from human experience in the last hundred years or so about how best to maintain order and safety on the roads. Recognition of this should be fairly uncontroversial amongst both atheists and Catholics, and they can agree on what the rules of the road are, and that neither of their respective views on theological questions really have much to do with it..

A position on the relative merits or perils of homosexuality is different. An atheist cannot draw any inference about homosexuality from the absence of any kind of god, other than perhaps that whatever the merits of homosexuality, the sodomites will not be going to imaginary hell.

A Catholic however, if he is a conscientious follower of Church teachings, ought to feel opposed to homosexuality on the basis of scripture, tradition, and pastoral guidance, all of which are sources of "knowledge" (smirk) about what is wrong with the gays and their tragic, potentially sinful, objective disorder. A Catholic cannot claim his faith is irrelevant to the question: the bigotry is embedded in the religion itself. Quite unlike atheism, and quite unlike other questions such as the proper method of driving.

Incidentally I chose "philosophers" as being the closest thing to "cardinals" within their respective fields, for the purpose of pointing out that people exercising greater authority also have greater responsibility, and in that regard the cardinals fail miserably for the human suffering they have endorsed and provoked. The argument applies to "lay catholics" and "lay atheists" as well.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Originally Posted by MikeyLove

Gnosticism does not give you the truth on anything. The teachings of the Church is guide by the Holy Spirit, not Man. The core teachings of the Catholic Church cannot be changed by any Man in the course of History passed, present, and future.

The Catholic Church has changed their teachings on many things from limbo, to priestly celibacy. Hell Christianity is merely corrupted Judaism mixed with Paganism. So your religion has changed greatly over time. Christianity has had human founders and nothing to do with any holy spirit. In fact we know the history and development of your religion well.

Originally Posted by MikeyLove

Nope! it is exactly what all Christians are supposed to believe in with out any doubts whatsoever.

Except history, science and anthrology shows that your religion has as much truth as the Greek myths. This also shows the cult like nature of your religion are you are supposed to believe it without any questioning.

Originally Posted by MikeyLove

Wrong! I will have nothing to do with the Father of all lies, Satan, Lucifer, the Devil, whatever you like to call him.

Satan is a perfect example of the human construct of your religion. In Judaism Satan was not a fallen angel but an angel who served Yahweh as someone who tested mortals. It was only when Christians came about did they take Satan and make him into a bad guy. Also Yahweh in the Bible does far more harm, atrocity and murder then Satan every did. Of course this does not surprise me considering that he is the war god of the Canaanites.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Christianity is actually pretty diverse, but most Americans nowadays are more Platonist than Christian. To assume that "Platonism" is a secular doctrine would be a failure in the proper understanding of Platonism. A true Platonist, who followed the teachings of the Platonist and Neoplatonist philosophers to the letter, would barely be distinguishable from a modern Christian.

There are also, of course, those who live more according to the Stoic tradition. The belief held by the Stoics was that virtuous behavior brought about spiritual happiness. They believed that the universe was made of a reasoning substance. They did not think of it so much as "God" but more the way we talk about "nature" as if it were a thinking substance somehow.

However, there are surviving relics of Olympianism in our culture. For example, there are still people who think of death in terms of Thanatos, and Thanatos appears very often in our art. Furthermore, Catholic demonology is littered with numerous old pagan gods, including many from The Levant. We don't admit to it and deride it as "mythology," but we still believe in and fear the old gods.

We still observe the idea of wishing wells or fountains. This is actually of Celtic origin, but the idea was also popular in Norse culture. Odin supposedly sacrificed his right eye for wisdom by casting it into a well. Today we routinely throw pennies into fountains, hoping that the small sacrifice will result in some degree of good fortune. When you do things like this, try to understand that you are continuing an ancient tradition of ritual sacrifice that has been around since before human memory.

It's derided as "superstition" and treated as backward and foolish, but that's because the Christians simply couldn't get rid of it. Oh, they tried to stamp it out. They tried to get people to realize that these pagan superstitions were backward and silly nonsense. A lot of people don't realize it today, but medieval Christians really thought of themselves as very enlightened and modern, and they made it their mission in life to educate all of our poor, backward pagan ancestors. People still do these things, though. They believe in these things. It surpasses their belief in God in how much it affects their behavior. This is the true religion of the common people.

It's not that Christianity has changed so much. It is more that we haven't changed as much as we fancy. Our culture survives, and what a tragedy it would have been to let it die.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

It's derided as "superstition" and treated as backward and foolish, but that's because the Christians simply couldn't get rid of it. Oh, they tried to stamp it out. They tried to get people to realize that these pagan superstitions were backward and silly nonsense.

You say "we" more than several times so I'm assuming you identify with the Christian religion? You are part of the Church and follow its creed?
You make it out--give the image--of these poor Christians trying to stamp out 'superstition'...? And replace it with what?

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Originally Posted by ludolfo

You say "we" more than several times so I'm assuming you identify with the Christian religion?

No, though I was raised United Methodist.

You make it out--give the image--of these poor Christians trying to stamp out 'superstition'...? And replace it with what?

Christianity, which was viewed by its adherents as a much more rational and scientific-minded religion. I was trying to explain how measures such as the Capitulato de partibus Saxoniae did not really succeed, as intended, in wiping out paganism. In fact, these old pagan beliefs still flourish in our culture. A culture is a hard thing to kill.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

but the reverence for springs, and nature in general, is far more ancient than Saxony. Do you think that experiencing springs, and hills, trees, and rivers, and nature as sacred, is superstition?
I know that most Christians will often attack 'paganistic' love for nature using their cliche "love the creator not his creation". Their premise being there is a duality between a --usually masculine-- 'creator' and 'his' 'creation'

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Originally Posted by ludolfo

but the reverence for springs, and nature in general, is far more ancient than Saxony.

That is what I was saying, yes. It goes back to before the memory of history.

Do you think that experiencing springs, and hills, trees, and rivers, and nature as sacred, is superstition?

Much of what we regard as "superstition" is composed of the remnants of our ancestral faith. They were quite serious about it. Even the belief that wood sorrel is associated with good fortune is based on the teachings of the Druids, and this was linked heavily with their belief that 3 was an important number. Wood sorrel can also be used to make a nice dessert.

I know that most Christians will often attack 'paganistic' love for nature using their cliche "love the creator not his creation". Their premise being there is a duality between a --usually masculine-- 'creator' and 'his' 'creation'

But it is pagan! If you have Celtic ancestry, your ancestors worshiped trees. They revered trees. This may be true of many cultures, but the Celts had an amazing number of beliefs about trees. Therefore, they are quite right.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

I never meant it wasn't pagan. But whose side are you on? Do you agree with that typical Christian accusation against paganistic reverence for nature as loving creation more than its creator?
Where do you stand?

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Originally Posted by ludolfo

I never meant it wasn't pagan. But whose side are you on? Do you agree with that typical Christian accusation against paganistic reverence for nature as loving creation more than its creator?

In the Hindu faith, there are two kinds of divine beings, one of which are devas, the other of which are asuras. The devas also are the "younger gods," and they are considered to be in conflict with the "older gods," the asuras. In the Hindu faith, asuras are power-craving beings, not necessarily evil but in a way sinister, and the devas are considered to be the proper maintainers of the realms. However, the Zoroastrian religion regards their ahuras as the true, good gods, and they regard the "shining ones," the daevas, as wicked and troublesome creatures.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Originally Posted by ludolfo

well lovers maybe, they are flesh and blood and you can see and smell them, but what do you mean by 'gods'?

If you did not know which they were, then why did you ask where I stood in their dispute?

Like Thomas Jefferson, I stand with Epicurus. Supposedly, Epicurus once said, "Why should I fear death? If I am, death is not. If death is, I am not. Why should I fear that which cannot exist when I do?"

Like Epicurus, I am at peace with my mortal life, so what need have I of feuds between divinities?

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

It was a question? If someone asks me a question, I would try and answer and not reply with a question.

You stand with the ancient aristocratic philosopher Epicurus? So do you then you must also embrace modern Physicalism?

“ Physicalism: A False View of the World: There is no generally accepted accurate ism-word to describe the dominant, modern, secular (non-religious) view of the world. "Materialism" comes close but "matter" as understood in modern physics is far less "material" than was previously thought. Materialism in the strict sense is the view that only what is material is real, where material means: composed of matter. But what is matter?”#
“Physicalists can talk as much as they like about neural structures, resonant patterns of brain activity and the like, but in fact they have no explanation for the "emergence" of consciousness from "complex interconnections of physical entities within the brain." A physicalist also chooses to believe, that consciousness "emerges" from complex networks of neurons, but is usually not aware that they have chosen to believe."

I am not at peace because I see so many people being exploited by false myths and believing in them, and this effects everything including myself.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Originally Posted by ludolfo

It was a question? If someone asks me a question, I would try and answer and not reply with a question.

Answers are places where the ordinary bird perches to sleep. The albatross, being a philosopher, sleeps on the wing.

You know, I used to feel very clever over the fact that I was an atheist. I, unlike most people, had not been sucked-in by the illusion. I had broken ranks with the flock and learned to see the world as it truly is. However, I eventually came to realize that there was such a thing as a Christian who was more knowledgeable, more clever and more mature than I was. Now, I spent a while trying to understand how an otherwise intelligent person could believe in something that was so obviously dumb.

It struck me that I had underestimated the true depth of theological thought. I became aware of how incomplete my education really was. I therefore endeavored to spend a while honing my understanding of this particular branch of human thought. I wanted to really get into the heads of these thinkers. I wanted to understand what made them tick.

In time, I discovered that most Christians do not think this deeply about their spirituality. I thought, "what a shame. They have such a wondrous world in here, yet they ignore it. They go about their bourgeois lives and never really have a truly spiritual thought. How very tragic." It is like going through your entire life without ever having seen art or heard music.

Well, at this point in my life, I have gotten to be far too flighty to really take stands on things, so the question as to where I stand is a non sequitur.

You stand with the ancient aristocratic philosopher Epicurus?

They were all aristocratic, and I prefer to think of him as a good-humored and mischievous professor. I would not say that I am governed by him, though.

So do you then you must also embrace modern Physicalism?

As a matter of fact, I fuck it.

I am not at peace because I see so many people being exploited by false myths and believing in them, and this effects everything including myself.

If we did away with the false beliefs, though, we would still have the bad habits that led to them. If all you did was take away religion, it would only be a matter of time before some clever man were to decide that the Sun revolves around the Earth, and people would go around believing that only those silly and primitive Christians believe that the Earth revolves around the Sun. How droll!

On the other hand, if the habits were changed, the false beliefs would melt away without any further assistance. The best way of dealing with a Christian who is determined to discuss religion, my friend, is to make pleasant conversation about theology. For example, I would rather a Christian be educated in the history of Hussite teachings, the philosophical underpinnings of the Charismatic movement, or the fine distinctions between preterism and historicism than have him become knowledgeable in the sciences.

A person who has learned to think needs little help in realizing that certain ideas are, to be charitable, asinine. What Christians need to learn to think about, though, is Christianity. They can always study biology, physics or neuroscience if they have a mind to. Once you have empowered the Christian to think in new ways about his faith, you have fledged a new thinker, and he can work out for himself which way the wind blows.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

I didn't know albatrosses were philosophers? What an awful thought.

In time, I discovered that most Christians do not think this deeply about their spirituality. I thought, "what a shame. They have such a wondrous world in here, yet they ignore it. They go about their bourgeois lives and never really have a truly spiritual thought. How very tragic." It is like going through your entire life without ever having seen art or heard music.

I don't think it was untill John Marco Allegro, and his extraordinary controversial book The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, that we could at last see that spirituality is always connected with mind-altering vegetation. Twas so in the Goddess religion, paganism, and also secretly in Judeo Christianity, Islam, and Eastern religions, and of course shamanism.

I consider people going through their lives without psychedelic experience in the same way. Indigenous peoples have called these vegetations sacred medicine. Have you ever experienced psychedelics yourself Brian?

If we did away with the false beliefs, though, we would still have the bad habits that led to them. If all you did was take away religion, it would only be a matter of time before some clever man were to decide that the Sun revolves around the Earth, and people would go around believing that only those silly and primitive Christians believe that the Earth revolves around the Sun. How droll!

Hmm not sure if I gets you there. It was Galileo who tried to inform the Christians about the Earth revolving round the sun and was arrested for it because --the story goes--they refused to look through his telescope,
Am I trying to "do away" with false beliefs? I am rather questioning them.

The best way of dealing with a Christian who is determined to discuss religion, my friend, is to make pleasant conversation about theology. For example, I would rather a Christian be educated in the history of Hussite teachings, the philosophical underpinnings of the Charismatic movement, or the fine distinctions between preterism and historicism than have him become knowledgeable in the sciences.

We would get nowhere! Being direct there has to be an element of shock. Exploring reality can be shocking. Threatening, beliefs, worldviews can be painful, and the same goes for me---people challenge me also. If I for example suggest that 'Jesus' or 'Chrestos' was originally a sacrament, and mind-altering fungi for some all pleasantries will go out of the window. Allegro was ostracized by Christians and his 'colleagues' till the day he died.

I do not discount visions OF 'Jesus'. I am very aware the enormous imaginative power of this 'archetype' using Jungian terms. However, a person could have an image of the Lord of Death (Hinduism), or any manner of thing also. I like to look deeper into what this may mean than pretend and preach an 'only through Jesus' type of dogma. I question all of that and think it limited and harmful---toxic.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Originally Posted by ludolfo

I didn't know albatrosses were philosophers? What an awful thought.

Well, so are cats if that makes you feel any better.

I don't think it was untill John Marco Allegro, and his extraordinary controversial book The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, that we could at last see that spirituality is always connected with mind-altering vegetation. Twas so in the Goddess religion, paganism, and also secretly in Judeo Christianity, Islam, and Eastern religions, and of course shamanism.

I consider people going through their lives without psychedelic experience in the same way. Indigenous peoples have called these vegetations sacred medicine. Have you ever experienced psychedelics yourself Brian?

I have always been curious about LSD, actually.

Hmm not sure if I gets you there. It was Galileo who tried to inform the Christians about the Earth revolving round the sun and was arrested for it because --the story goes--they refused to look through his telescope,
Am I trying to "do away" with false beliefs? I am rather questioning them.

Galileo was a student of Epicurus, too.

We would get nowhere!

It depends on where you want to go. I would rather have Christians who think than atheists who don't.

Being direct there has to be an element of shock. Exploring reality can be shocking. Threatening, beliefs, worldviews can be painful, and the same goes for me---people challenge me also.

Oh, that's why people find it shocking when I rapidly change positions in a discussion. They have gotten used to the idea that one ought to cling to one's beliefs and ideas with a white-knuckle grip, and somehow, if you relinquish that grip, you are compromising who you are somehow. I come across as flighty.

If I for example suggest that 'Jesus' or 'Chrestos' was originally a sacrament, and mind-altering fungi for some all pleasantries will go out of the window. Allegro was ostracized by Christians and his 'colleagues' till the day he died.

I do not discount visions OF 'Jesus'. I am very aware the enormous imaginative power of this 'archetype' using Jungian terms. However, a person could have an image of the Lord of Death (Hinduism), or any manner of thing also. I like to look deeper into what this may mean than pretend and preach an 'only through Jesus' type of dogma. I question all of that and think it limited and harmful---toxic.

Oh, I remember an English course I took ten years ago where I learned about Jungian archetypes. It was very interesting.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Unfortunately the software here doesn't let you languidly re-edit, so if your over the 10 minute mark and want to re-edit you canot, so I will have to put in a better composed presentation of what I said here:

Well, so are cats if that makes you feel any better.

I am not mad on philosophy. I think it , like dodgy beliefs, is a root cause of the trouble we're in. As you say the ancient philosophers of Greece were mainly aristocrats, and many of them, like Aristotle, supported slavery! Also hand in hand as usua follows this mindsetl would denigrate women, and of course nature, for nature has nearly always been mythically associated with the Feminine.

And the 'philo' pf 'philo-sophy' meaning 'love' was more so love of the philosophers own thinking-process which becomes cut-off from nature. This was so for Plato of course, and so I cannot look at amazingly earth-spiritual animals like birds and cats as 'philosophers'. They are far deeper than that.

When thinking is self-referential, and becomes identified with itself--as feeling somehow superior-- to the detriment of the whole organism, senses, and its interrelationship with nature in all of its deep mystery, which is objectified as being inferior-- is when it becomes toxic just as can happen with mythology.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Originally Posted by ludolfo

I am not mad on philosophy. I think it too, like dodgy beliefs is a root cause of the trouble. S you say the ancient philosophers of Greece were mainly aristocrats and many of them, like Aristotle, supported slavery! Also hand in had as usual would denigrate women, and of course then nature. And the 'philo' meaning 'love' was more so love of their own thinking-process which becomes cut-off from the real world. This was so for Plato of course, and so I cannot look at amazingly earth-spiritual animals like birds and cats as 'philosophers'. They are far deeper than that.

Oh, that's one of the reasons I like Epicurus. He was one of the first feminist thinkers.

However, a lot of people get confused about his comments on homosexuality. He expressed concern about how healthy it could be to spend too much time whoring about, whether it's with women or young boys. Well, some people take his comments to mean that he is speaking against homosexuality, and he is not. He just believes that people get to be too sexually focused, and they don't really have a chance to get the benefit of knowing each other as just friends and neighbors. Well, that's one of the reasons I say I'm not governed by Epicurus. I think it's fine for some people to have a more sexually focused life. I just also understand that it's not for everybody.

But yeah, Aristotle was a misogynist, which is probably one of the reasons that medieval thinkers like Thomas Aquinas liked him. You see, Aristotle was actually revived by Aquinas and his Islamic counterpart, Averroes. Unfortunately, this resulted in them ruining scholasticism by introducing into it an ultra-orthodox mindset in which Aristotle and similar thinkers were raised up on pedestals.

The problem with treating a thinker like a prophet, though, is that you end up destroying any chance of any future progress in the same area of thought they were considered to be masters at. For example, let's take what happened to British mathematics during and after the rise of Isaac Newton. Sure, he brought a lot of progress to the mathematics in his own right, but he was treated so much like a prophet that nobody else was paid any attention. Any student who contradicted Newton or tried to look at a problem in a different way was shot down. Meanwhile, in Germany, they just took their Leibniz to be one of many brilliant men in their history, and they kept the ball rolling. The British still haven't really caught back up.

When thinking is self-referential, and becomes identified with itself--as feeling somehow superior-- to the detriment of the whole organism, senses, and its interrelationship with nature in all of its deep mystery, which is objectified as being inferior-- is when it becomes toxic just like mythology can do.

So you are saying that focusing so much on the inner life as to devalue one's whole self ends up being detrimental.

Well, that is something that the Epicureans tried to address. Their theory was that a good inner life must be supported by a healthy body and tranquil surroundings. By avoiding stress and seeking out relationships with others that were not potentially ridden with drama, like sexual partnerships, they hoped to support clearer inner thoughts. They hoped that, by making sure that their needs were satisfied, they could better enable themselves to behave virtuously.

Now, what you seem to object to is the idea that the body is nothing more than a vessel for holding a mind in, right? Treating the body as if it's not really important at all except in how it's important to the mind? If I am interpreting you correctly, I understand that point well.

There are those spiritualists who say that focusing on the body is somehow shallow. They like to beat the drum that the body is inferior. It is dirty, they say. It is the worldly flesh that keeps us from truly experiencing that which is spiritually sublime, they say. The thing is, I have been there. I have tried the approach of ignoring my worldly needs. I have tried the approach of ignoring my need for human companionship. I have experimented with the idea of taking the inner spiritual existence to the extreme, to the point of degrading the worth of my body. I cultivated that robust and sophisticated inner life, and the things that went on in the world around me seemed so unimportant. They seemed so vain and petty. My body seemed like something that I was loosely tethered to.

Well, that's kind of why I can react to the spiritualist with a sense of "been there, done that, got the t-shirt, and I think I still use it to dust my furniture." You might as well spend all your days whacked-out on marijuana. It's not that the drug itself is bad. For some people, it's wonderful. It's quite useful. Staying whacked-out on it all day every day, though, is a thing for looooooooooooooooooo serrrrrrrrrrrrrrrzzz. However, I feel about spirituality kind of how you feel about LSD: sure, it's pathetic to think it's the only thing in the world there is to live for, but it's kind of sad if someone goes through life and never gets to experience it. Like I said, it's like never truly seeing art, in a sublime way, or never getting a synaesthesia experience off of music.

And I'm going to try that LSD stuff one of these days. I just have to get to where I have the time and the opportunity.

But I have also discovered the earth-spiritual experience you refer to. Rather than putting the focus on the self, you let go of the self. You distribute. You flow out. Your senses grow more acute. You are aware of every particle of dust beneath your fingertips. You are aware of distant sounds. You feel the emotions of those around you, and they are sharply defined rather than muted as they would be with the other. Rather than planning your actions, you let the world around you shape what you do. You react. You express.

However, one thing that I have learned about gods and lovers is that it's not the quarreling you ought to worry about, at least not as long as you see that peculiar twinkle in their eye. It's when they don't quarrel that something is really fucked-up in the relationship. Besides that, there is no fool like the fool who puts himself in the middle of a lover's quarrel. If you just let them sort out their own shit, they will be fucking each other before the day is out.

In any event, I regard Epicureanism to be the delightful nerd of philosophical persuasions. He is hung like a fucking mutant hyperphallic horse, and he is a demented maniac in bed. Practically every decent, worthwhile thing that has happened lately, in history, has been a product of Epicurean-style approaches to the world. That includes American democracy and our realization that the Earth revolves around the Sun rather than vice versa. He's not like those other guys, who used to treat you like shit and always fell asleep the instant they had gotten their jolly. He can actually give. Unlike those men who have superficial charm yet have little to show for it, he actually lives up to their romantic chatter without bothering your ears with it. He is also quite the sugar daddy.

On the other hand, as long as you are still feuding and fuming over your old lover, my dear, you have not truly put him in your past, where ill-fated romances belong. If you want to put him behind you, you ought to learn to understand him in a legitimately sympathetic light. Try to understand what happened to him. In your mind, make peace with him. Realize, deep down, that he cannot control you anymore. Until you have made your peace, deep down, he is not really behind you, and you can't move on.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Re: why has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people? The implication is more than others , which is unclear . There is a predominant world culture , basically US , which is English-speaking Protestant and roughly democratic . Protestant not Catholic . One might ask why English is everwhere , a fairly obscure German dialect , jeans in Mongolia ?

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Originally Posted by Brian Smith

Christianity is actually pretty diverse, but most Americans nowadays are more Platonist than Christian. To assume that "Platonism" is a secular doctrine would be a failure in the proper understanding of Platonism. A true Platonist, who followed the teachings of the Platonist and Neoplatonist philosophers to the letter, would barely be distinguishable from a modern Christian.

There are also, of course, those who live more according to the Stoic tradition. The belief held by the Stoics was that virtuous behavior brought about spiritual happiness. They believed that the universe was made of a reasoning substance. They did not think of it so much as "God" but more the way we talk about "nature" as if it were a thinking substance somehow.

However, there are surviving relics of Olympianism in our culture. For example, there are still people who think of death in terms of Thanatos, and Thanatos appears very often in our art. Furthermore, Catholic demonology is littered with numerous old pagan gods, including many from The Levant. We don't admit to it and deride it as "mythology," but we still believe in and fear the old gods.

We still observe the idea of wishing wells or fountains. This is actually of Celtic origin, but the idea was also popular in Norse culture. Odin supposedly sacrificed his right eye for wisdom by casting it into a well. Today we routinely throw pennies into fountains, hoping that the small sacrifice will result in some degree of good fortune. When you do things like this, try to understand that you are continuing an ancient tradition of ritual sacrifice that has been around since before human memory.

It's derided as "superstition" and treated as backward and foolish, but that's because the Christians simply couldn't get rid of it. Oh, they tried to stamp it out. They tried to get people to realize that these pagan superstitions were backward and silly nonsense. A lot of people don't realize it today, but medieval Christians really thought of themselves as very enlightened and modern, and they made it their mission in life to educate all of our poor, backward pagan ancestors. People still do these things, though. They believe in these things. It surpasses their belief in God in how much it affects their behavior. This is the true religion of the common people.

It's not that Christianity has changed so much. It is more that we haven't changed as much as we fancy. Our culture survives, and what a tragedy it would have been to let it die.

I would say that in alot of ways Platonism is seperate from Christianity. For one the theory of forms asserts that there are certain abstract ideas that exist independant of and that give form to all things even the Gods. However Christianity think that before Yahweh there was nothing and that he created the atemporal forms when in reality these forms are uncreated and give form to all things.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Feminism and the mastery of nature “But for most of the history of Christianity the tendency to view the material world as alienated, as evil, or as having at best meaning and significance as an instrument to a separate higher spiritual realm, has triumphed. These views of nature are the precursor to later mechanistic ones, in which the redemption of nature is attained through science, while emphasis on the domination of nature without replaces or supplements Christian and Platonic emphasis on the domination of nature within.” Page 106

What Valerie Plumwood is saying is that although Plato talked about an 'anima mundi' meaning 'world soul', he yet had the image of a masculine logos in control from within over 'matter'--the feminine, nature. This is why he created a dualism between nature which he considered changeable and thus inferior to the 'non-changing' nature of the astral spiritual realms which he thought superior.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Originally Posted by Mariatenebre

I would say that in alot of ways Platonism is seperate from Christianity. For one the theory of forms asserts that there are certain abstract ideas that exist independant of and that give form to all things even the Gods. However Christianity think that before Yahweh there was nothing and that he created the atemporal forms when in reality these forms are uncreated and give form to all things.

But most professed Christians today are more Platonist than Christian. Really, this has been the case for a long while.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Originally Posted by ludolfo

I am quite intrigued how come the gay online community forum here to do with religion and spirituality seems to be mainly obsessed with the Christian myth, as if to suggest that Christianity invented religion and spirituality.

I would just like to explore why. Of course we in the western world are permeated with this myth since being little, and we ALL have 'Christian' names, so even though generally there is an acceptance we have moved on away from this age of religion and now exist in the 'real' world of scientific materialism that willy-nilly all the Christian principles and values remain, some unconsciously.

It's quite strange how the book the Bible can have had so much influence over so many over the generations isn't it. EVEN though for many gay people we have had to suffer great abuse from believers in this book for a long long time YET the threads in this section seem devoted to this religion as though it has a patent on religion, spirituality, and philosophy.

What are gay people here feeling about this is my question?

What I feel about this is I am glad I live in a country founded on Christian principles even though I may take exception to them. I'd rather live here than in a Muslim country. I'd probably already be dead if I lived in, let's say, Sudan.

Last edited by Durango95; March 17th, 2013 at 04:38 PM.

Only government can take perfectly good paper, cover it with perfectly good ink and make the combination worthless.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Originally Posted by Durango95

What I feel about this is I am glad I live in a country founded on Christian principles even though I may take exception to them. I'd rather live here than in a Muslim country. I'd probably already be dead if I lived in, let's say, Sudan.

"the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Originally Posted by Durango95

What I feel about this is I am glad I live in a country founded on Christian principles even though I may take exception to them. I'd rather live here than in a Muslim country. I'd probably already be dead if I lived in, let's say, Sudan.

When I question Christianity, I am really questioning all patriarchal myths because they all come from the same source---one that fear, hates, persecutes, and attacks women, animals (and all other species). nature. gays, people of colour. I can see this clearly.LOOK at who the victims of this world are, and it is obvious.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Originally Posted by ludolfo

When I question Christianity, I am really questioning all patriarchal myths because they all come from the same source---one that fear, hates, persecutes, and attacks women, animals (and all other species). nature. gays, people of colour. I can see this clearly.LOOK at who the victims of this world are, and it is obvious.

Then why did you not say all patriarchal religions and not just Christianity. I haven't seen anyone being killed in the past few months in a Christian country for being gay or committing adultery.

Only government can take perfectly good paper, cover it with perfectly good ink and make the combination worthless.

Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

Originally Posted by Durango95

Then why did you not say all patriarchal religions and not just Christianity. I haven't seen anyone being killed in the past few months in a Christian country for being gay or committing adultery.

Of course! In Uganda the most prominent gay activist David Kato was murdered. Uganda is Christian and is rabidly homophobic. They revently tried to pass a law to hang gay people, di you sign the petition against it? Jamaica is also extremely homophobic--checkout 'Two more gay men killed in Jamaica

And as well as this is the violence and threat of violence for children, and adults, fearing what can happen if they are gay or targeted for being seen to be gay by bigoted people.

Listen to Christians even generally when the subject of gays is brought up, you will usually hear cherry picking from their fave book about 'it is abomination for man to lie with man', 'Sodom and Gomorrah' and that fuked up homophobic saying 'God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve' They like to think they have an all-good perfect male god in the sky backing them up, and paving their way to heaven for hatin on gay people---etc! So you speak out and question their myth and whatever fuels their fear and violence and ignorance which is what I have done and will continue doing.