So a discussion on another thread with some clarifications on the churchills we have in BK got me thinking about how one could go about incorporating buidlable MK VII Churchill tanks for RE.

Currently, you only get one tank that is classified as a MK VII Churchill, and it is an ace unit with a flamethrower with a limit of 1. Meaning for the rest of the game, if you want any more churchills, you are going to have to use the old churchill tanks without their super armor. This is not that bad, because these churchils aren't the 'real' churchills in that they are mutated versions of the real life version. Combining some perks of a MK VII Churchill in them without being that tank. I think like the comet, these tanks should get their real life armor values too but with RE also getting a buildable MK VII Churchill as compensation.

So how this would look in the command tree would be like this:

1 CP -> MK VI and MK VI Churchills are unlocked. They have sherman levels of armor, and are slightly faster than MK VII Churchill tanks. When MK VII Churchill tanks are unlocked(total would be 5 CP's to unlock them), the 6 pounder churchill gets APDS rounds. Which grant guaranteed penetrations against Panthers/Tigers. Could be like a single shot ability, or a timed ability like other AP rounds with a low damage roll for balance.

*You can also unlock a 95mm howitzer(MK VI tanks) with sherman armor here, or move them to the next phase where they will be upgraded MK VII tanks instead.

|v

2 CP -> MK VII Churchills are unlocked. They are equipped with the a sherman gun but have 152mm armor thickness on the front, easily able to bounce tigers and panthers at range. They have the same speed as an Elefant tank in the game.

*Can also unlock the MK VII 95mm Howitzer Churchill here or the CP unlock before it.

I don't know what the costs, upkeep, popcaps, will be as that would take a lot more work and field testing, but this is the general idea of how MK VII Churchill tanks could be incorporated into RE doc instead of being a special ace, 1-limit tank they are now.

*Edit: Put 2 CP instead of 3 for churchill ace

Last edited by MenciusMoldbug on 12 Sep 2018, 12:32, edited 1 time in total.

Alternative ; Remove At mine (position tree 23) Send it in a truck as upgrade (unsual for brits I admit). Move Engineer upgrade from 32-33 to 33-23.Use 32 as an additional slot to complete Churchill line and redistribute point including the missing 1 form AT mine.

MenciusMoldbug wrote:So a discussion on another thread with some clarifications on the churchills we have in BK got me thinking about how one could go about incorporating buidlable MK VII Churchill tanks for RE.

Currently, you only get one tank that is classified as a MK VII Churchill, and it is an ace unit with a flamethrower with a limit of 1. Meaning for the rest of the game, if you want any more churchills, you are going to have to use the old churchill tanks without their super armor. This is not that bad, because these churchils aren't the 'real' churchills in that they are mutated versions of the real life version. Combining some perks of a MK VII Churchill in them without being that tank. I think like the comet, these tanks should get their real life armor values too but with RE also getting a buildable MK VII Churchill as compensation.

That would be the best. I think the reason why we have mainly MK IV and VI churchill is bc of lacking models of MK VII.

1 CP -> MK VI and MK VI Churchills are unlocked. They have sherman levels of armor, and are slightly faster than MK VII Churchill tanks. When MK VII Churchill tanks are unlocked(total would be 5 CP's to unlock them), the 6 pounder churchill gets APDS rounds. Which grant guaranteed penetrations against Panthers/Tigers. Could be like a single shot ability, or a timed ability like other AP rounds with a low damage roll for balance.

In corsix we do have MK IV/VI and MK VII armor types. No need to use sherman tp. Angled armor equally to 100 mm and pure 100 thickness without any angle behaves still different+ churchillls. The sherman could (depending on source) stand shots from 75 mm L/48 better than churchills, however churchills had better side armor which could be used to advantage when being angled towards the enemie.So theorectically they could have similiar resistance frontally to 75 mm guns but churchill has better rear armor values, esspecially against guns like the 50 mm.

Also i would be carefull with "granted" pen or bounces bc armored warfare was never a granted thing. Giving it a chance, yes, however atm special AP shots are linked with basic pen stats and just modify then. So having Granted bounces with standard shots and granted pens with apds is only possible when making it the way you suggest (single shot, like single HE shots). It would be just a bit unordinary. Also idk if we should do that. There were at least two different types of 6 pdr guns, shorter L/45 and L/50. Its stated that some MK IV received the longer one later.

I would also kick out the MK VI entirely. It was a very small number only that got build. Both, the IV and VI used the 6 pdr as well as US 75 mm (and british 75 mm which cromwell used as well). Some source state that the VI used only the 6 pdr, others say only 75 mm. Anyway, only 200 got build and so the unit might get removed entirely.

Instead there would simply be two MK IV versions, those with 6 pdr and those with 75 mm. First i thought we could let them come with 6 pdr and 75 mm as upgrade but we can just as well add two types of MK IV. IV and VI were pretty much the same anyway, soo.. who cares.

*You can also unlock a 95mm howitzer(MK VI tanks) with sherman armor here, or move them to the next phase where they will be upgraded MK VII tanks instead.

That unlocks the MK V. Its the one with 95 mm based on MK IV. It also unlocks the AVRE which was technically a converted MK IV.

2 CP -> MK VII Churchills are unlocked. They are equipped with the a sherman gun but have 152mm armor thickness on the front, easily able to bounce tigers and panthers at range. They have the same speed as an Elefant tank in the game.

*Can also unlock the MK VII 95mm Howitzer Churchill here or the CP unlock before it.

I don't know what the costs, upkeep, popcaps, will be as that would take a lot more work and field testing, but this is the general idea of how MK VII Churchill tanks could be incorporated into RE doc instead of being a special ace, 1-limit tank they are now.

agreed.

Another idea i thought about while writing:

We could have one line of churchill combat tanks that goes MK IV->MK VII-> MKVII crocc. And under each of the IV and VI is a unlock for the 95 mm Versions. But for that we would have to move/merge certain other abilities. Possibly the Roadblocks and mines could get merged or the sapper repair upgrade and the veterancy upgrade.

Also Possible would be MK IV with 6 pdr->MK IV with 75 mm->MK VII and MK VII crocc. Below the IV with 75 mm would be the 95 mm MK V unlock and below the MK VII the 95 mm MK VIII unlock. Mines and roadblocks would merge as well as the two sapper unlocks. The improved emplacments and hull down unlock would move to the far right down below the crocc while that merged sapper unlock and merged roadblock/mine upgrade are single sperated unlocks on the bottom below the 95 mm churchill unlocks.

I think the RE doctrine is fine now, the churchill tanks fulfill the function of putting a shield when entering the enemy camp, you also have other alternatives if you want tanks faster, you could start unlocking the Achilles and then the Canadian tanks that they are very effective at the time of advancing (besides you save fuel and only by 820MP you have two Canadian tanks), the 95mm obus is also effective, in the final stage you have the Comet, which are very useful when attacking, so for the moment I think RE is fine like this now

Warhawks97 wrote:Angled armor equally to 100 mm and pure 100 thickness without any angle behaves still different+ churchillls. The sherman could (depending on source) stand shots from 75 mm L/48 better than churchills, however churchills had better side armor which could be used to advantage when being angled towards the enemie.

Since Shermans will stay as they are, it would mean to nerf the frontal armor of Churchills to be as weak against 75mm L48 as Shermans. I don't know if you remember the game I had with you and few others on Goodwood about two years ago (it was still before the Churchill armor buff) where I built few Churchills, they got smashed exactly by those L48 guns and you were like "why you build those Churchills? They are a waste of res!" - so making the armor of Churchills weaker would mean returning to this and I really don't want that becacuse Churchills would be as useless as before, I am not saying that now they are super useful but still better than they used to be.

I think the actual point is that we have MK VII as standard tanks availbale. Since current MK IV VI almost behave as one, there wouldnt be much of a gameplay change so far. You start with MK IV (perhaps a 6 pdr and a 75 mm version) unlocked in the first step and from then on you go for MK VII churchills. How exactly you would put into one upgrade at the end is up to you.

At the end we would simply have a MK IV (two types or simply IV and VI combined in one unlock), AVRE/MK V, MKVII (and MK VIII howitzer version) and the MK VII as crocodile version.

Last edited by Warhawks97 on 12 Sep 2018, 22:59, edited 1 time in total.

At one hand, I agree with Shanks that RE doc is fine now.. just needs better scouting (which will be done by lowering price of Dingo) and perhaps the Comet needs faster turret rotation.. and that's all about it.

However, on the other hand...Having the Churchill MKVII build-able would be very logical and absolutely justifiable with no doubt.. but then it would take a lot of time to balance.

So, I'm really unable to give a clear opinion on this.. at least for now.

MenciusMoldbug wrote:2 CP -> MK VII Churchills are unlocked. They are equipped with the a sherman gun but have 152mm armor thickness on the front, easily able to bounce tigers and panthers at range. They have the same speed as an Elefant tank in the game.

This means a buildable Churchill which is basically the Crocodile but without the flamethrower.

(last CP also clear).

If this is correct then I am not against the idea in general but still have some issues with this:1) I am against lowering the armor strength of current "early Churchills" (6pounder + 75mm) - those that fall under the "1CP" section of this suggestion. They would return to being useless. Even if they are "slightly faster", they will still be slow as dirt and armor similar to Shermans would mean than any unit using 75mm L48 would be able to kill these tanks very easily even from range. The L48 guns are mounted on everything, so it would mean that once you run into an AT HT or PIV, the Churchill is dead because 6 pounder nor 75mm cannot effectively fight PIVs and lighter vehicles have speed advantage so they can exploit the turret rotation time to take a shot, then retreat, relocate, take a shot again. The "APDS" shot for 6pounder Churchills would not be so useful either because Panthers and Tigers have bigger range and are both faster than the Churchill so they would be able to keep kiting the Churchill (Churchill would have no chance to take a shot) until it is destroyed and with "Sherman" armor, they would destroy it with one or two shots. If the APDS shot was used against PIV or orther medium tanks, due to lower damage the shot would most likely not kill the target, while the target would most likely kill the Churchill (beacuse of its Sherman armor).So I would keep the armor of these two as it is - it protects well from L48 but Tigers have at max range about 50% (and they can afford to come closer for more penetrative power because the 6pounder/75mm cannot hurt them) cannot effectively stop Panther or stronger shots.

2) AVRE should also keep its armor. It should kill (mostly) AT emplacements and bunkers but most AT emplacements have same or bigger range than AVRE and if it gets weaker armor, then it will always get shot at and destroyed because pretty much every AT emplacement in the game can easily penetrtate Sherman-strong armor, so people would mainly go for 95mm Churchill because it would be safer to use.

3) Buildable MK VII is possible but there is no free UI slot in the Armor HQ truck.

Though, number 3) could be solved by adding a sub-UI same way as the 2nd Truck has it.

Warhawks97 wrote:That would be the best. I think the reason why we have mainly MK IV and VI churchill is bc of lacking models of MK VII.

If you place next to each other the 6pounder, 75mm and Croc Churchills you will notice that they are actually the same (Croc has the flamethrower but that is just a animation variation). They have same size, same attachments, same looking guns, same scratches etc. only different textures. I don't know what were visual differences between the Mk IV/VI/VII versions but the versions we have in the Mod differ only in texture.

MarKr wrote:I went through it again and I can see I got it wrong at the first time.

So just so I am clear on this:The "MK VI and MK VI" means the current 6pounder and 75mm Churchills, right?

From informations i gathered it seemed like that both had 6 pdr (the L/45, later L/50) and 75. Some sources say that the VI had only 6 pdr, others 75 mm. However there were two versions of 75 mm, the sherman gun and those of the cromwell. Perhaps we call them both MK IV. One with 6 pdr and one with 75 mmAt the end it wouldnt actually matter. Keep the IV with 6 pdr and VI with 75 mm and its fine.

If this is correct then I am not against the idea in general but still have some issues with this:1) I am against lowering the armor strength of current "early Churchills" (6pounder + 75mm) - those that fall under the "1CP" section of this suggestion. They would return to being useless. Even if they are "slightly faster", they will still be slow as dirt and armor similar to Shermans would mean than any unit using 75mm L48 would be able to kill these tanks very easily even from range.

Currently a 76 sherman gets penetrated with approx 65% chance by 75 mm L/48 guns. Make it approx 50% or 45% for churchills (reflecting the higher side armor values when angled to the enemie) and its good... or 40%.

The L48 guns are mounted on everything, so it would mean that once you run into an AT HT or PIV, the Churchill is dead because 6 pounder nor 75mm cannot effectively fight PIVs and lighter vehicles have speed advantage so they can exploit the turret rotation time to take a shot, then retreat, relocate, take a shot again.

Which is the result of largely overated Tank IV armor. Esspecially the 50 mm F and E versions. The 76 guns have only a 67,5% chance to pen and the 75 mm, which proofed to be a very effective weapon against these 50 mm armor Tank IV and Tank III´s in north Afrika, have also just a 37% chance to pen. The 6 pdrs, which were also quite effective, have just a 31,5% chance.

So basically we would have churchills with 6 pdr or 75 mm fighting at least Tank IV F2´s as winners at the end, even when the 75 mm would have a 50% pen chance vs churchills.

I am afterall voting for having the tank IV J coming with skirts at default. Why? Bc then we could use the tank IV target type alone for the F and E versions with 50 mm armor without intefering with the 80 mm Tank IV´s which would only use Tank IV_skirt_type.

The "APDS" shot for 6pounder Churchills would not be so useful either because Panthers and Tigers have bigger range and are both faster than the Churchill so they would be able to keep kiting the Churchill (Churchill would have no chance to take a shot) until it is destroyed and with "Sherman" armor, they would destroy it with one or two shots.

At that time you should have the MK VII. The IV and VI are not supposed to "tank" them.

If the APDS shot was used against PIV or orther medium tanks, due to lower damage the shot would most likely not kill the target, while the target would most likely kill the Churchill (beacuse of its Sherman armor).[/quote]

The 75 mm L/48 has max 600 damage. Churchill has 750 HP. But thx to AP damage boost the 75 mm damage goes up to 750 max...tada. So all these "Health advantages" (eg Churchill, Sherman, Panther) are usless as long as AP boosts the damage so massively.

The 6 pdr has 450 damage and with AP 562,5. Tank IV´s have arround 636 HP. That means 75 can oneshot healthy churchill due to AP damage boost while the churchill cant in return. Removing that damage boost and the churchill could take advantage of the higher rate of fire of its 6 pdr and perhaps even higher pen chances vs Tank IV f2 at least. Command tank can be used to bring the odds to churchills favour when fighting vs H/J Tank IV´s.

So I would keep the armor of these two as it is - it protects well from L48 but Tigers have at max range about 50% (and they can afford to come closer for more penetrative power because the 6pounder/75mm cannot hurt them) cannot effectively stop Panther or stronger shots.

As said, for Panthers and Tigers you should use the MK VII already to bounce them off.

I would say that the IV and VI could have 55%-60% chance to bounce L/48 shots without any boosts (Ambush, AP) and roughly 25% chance to bounce Tigers and Panthers. The MK VII would be the real armor monster.

2) AVRE should also keep its armor. It should kill (mostly) AT emplacements and bunkers but most AT emplacements have same or bigger range than AVRE and if it gets weaker armor, then it will always get shot at and destroyed because pretty much every AT emplacement in the game can easily penetrtate Sherman-strong armor, so people would mainly go for 95mm Churchill because it would be safer to use.

Thats an issue indeed.

3) Buildable MK VII is possible but there is no free UI slot in the Armor HQ truck.

Though, number 3) could be solved by adding a sub-UI same way as the 2nd Truck has it.

I was just about to say.

Markr wrote:If you place next to each other the 6pounder, 75mm and Croc Churchills you will notice that they are actually the same (Croc has the flamethrower but that is just a animation variation). They have same size, same attachments, same looking guns, same scratches etc. only different textures. I don't know what were visual differences between the Mk IV/VI/VII versions but the versions we have in the Mod differ only in texture.

Churchill MKVII could be build-able for 5 CPs (without flamethrower) for a similar cost as 75 Sherman Jumbo, something around 700 MP and 90 fuel.. and for 2 CPs the player would be able to call-in the current Churchills MK-IV and VI (but with weaker armor) for about 600 MP or something.

This way you wouldn't have to change much in the doctrine.. and at the same time the normal Churchills would be still valuable even after weakening their armor.. because they will only cost MP to use.

Idk. Personally i dont like too much these call ins bc they totally bypass fuel. One say its good, i dont. One side has the struggle for the fuel while the other can be quite relaxed knowing that a call in will be available. I like it to have the IV and VI as once CP and producable right away from truck which perhaps is also closer to the frontline. Churchills might need a long time to cross the map. And these 50 fuel arent the world for RE.

Warhawks97 wrote:That would be the best. I think the reason why we have mainly MK IV and VI churchill is bc of lacking models of MK VII.

If you place next to each other the 6pounder, 75mm and Croc Churchills you will notice that they are actually the same (Croc has the flamethrower but that is just a animation variation). They have same size, same attachments, same looking guns, same scratches etc. only different textures. I don't know what were visual differences between the Mk IV/VI/VII versions but the versions we have in the Mod differ only in texture.

There is no model for panther D either, but about nobody Is able to identify differences.

And IIRC Markr is right, the So called Churchill MKVII is really a MKIV.

Warhawks97 wrote:Currently a 76 sherman gets penetrated with approx 65% chance by 75 mm L/48 guns. Make it approx 50% or 45% for churchills (reflecting the higher side armor values when angled to the enemie) and its good... or 40%.(...)So basically we would have churchills with 6 pdr or 75 mm fighting at least Tank IV F2´s as winners at the end, even when the 75 mm would have a 50% pen chance vs churchills.

Now these early churchills have high chance to bounce off incoming 75mm L48 shots but also have low chance to penetrate tanks with those guns. You would change them to penetrate the PIVs easier but also get easier penetrated. I think it would only encourage rushing for VII and englecting the IV/VI for most of cases.I mean, it can be done but it will only lower the chance of those Churchills to survive and since the penetration buff vs PIVs (and I presume it would not be just PIVs but in general the medium units where the 6pndr is underperforming) would apply to Churchill's 6 pounder, it would need to apply to 6pndr AT gun, US 57mm AT gun and T48 HT too so it would be a nerf for Axis medium tanks across the board so I am not for buffing the 6 pounders. I really don't think it is needed. The penetration chances of Tiger I and Panther could go higher if RE gets the option to build MK VII, even the pen. chances of L48 guns could go higher but now at max range the chance is about 15% so it could go to 25-30% but giving it more would be a huge nerf for these units.

Warhawks97 wrote:The 75 mm L/48 has max 600 damage. Churchill has 750 HP. But thx to AP damage boost the 75 mm damage goes up to 750 max...tada. So all these "Health advantages" (eg Churchill, Sherman, Panther) are usless as long as AP boosts the damage so massively.

Doesn't it give more reasons to Axis players to use the AP ability against medium tanks? Before the recent patches Axis tanks and TD didn't have to use the AP that much because they had penetration advantage that allowed them to penetrate even the medium tanks without AP. How much is the AP activation? 75 ammo? So the AP shots can nullify the HP advantage of these tanks of Allies but at least now they need spend ammo on it.I agree that the damage boost of AP is sort of stupid and I think it should be addressed too in the future, I'm just saying it is not so one-sided.

Warhawks97 wrote:As said, for Panthers and Tigers you should use the MK VII already to bounce them off.

I know, I was just pointing at the fact that MenciusMoldbug mentioned specifically the APDS would have guaranteed penetration against Tigers and Panthers, but in praxis you would not have much chance to use it due to Panthers/Tigers having speed and range advantage.

Warhawks97 wrote:The MK VII would be the real armor monster.

This makes me wonder how much of an "armor beast" it would be. Sure, L48 guns would have minimum chance to do anything to it, Tigers and Panthers would bounce off fairly often too, but how well would it bounce odd KT type guns? I sort of doubt it would be able to "reliably" bounce such shots, or not?

You can throw my APDS idea away if needed, I was openly brainstorming on how to make the early churchills useful with an armor nerf to them. I'm sure there's better ways to implement the idea then I have said. The general thing I am going for is buildable MK VII Churchills and I am open to any solutions that adds them into the game.

I will say that the current churchills we have are 'OK' but later on in the game they don't really cut it. Slow speed, kinda costly because of how early you can get it, and armor not strong enough to contest axis heavy tanks/upgunned tank destroyers. So I would like an even stronger churchill so it isn't just going RE for a fast Churchill rush then to -> Achilles -> Fireflies -> Comets -> some 95mm churchills to destroy emplacements -> and maybe a crocodile at the very late stage of the game.

Yes, the Mk.VII could be added but still - how effectivelly would you be able to bounce off PaK43 shots? Curently these guns have like 85% chance to penetrate the MkVII (Crocodile) armor at max range and if it stays like that then the MkVII will not be all that useful because PaK43 is present in Def doc (Elefant, emplacement), Terror doc (KT), SE (Nashorn) and TH (Jagdpanther, Nashorn) + TH also has Jagdtiger. So still 4 out of 6 docs can field something that would disable the Mk VII quite easily, actually 5 out of 6 because Luft would most likely send Henschels against Mk VII anyway.So how effective should these guns be?

Churchill MKVII is not much more than jumbo 75 mm who sacrifie speed for a better side armour (at least at bk, because historical it is arguable). It is not sure such tank will scare so much axis players, unless it is early available.Speed is a big weakness and its 75 infantry gun not so frightening.

Keep in mind a slow jumbo 75 to evaluate a MKVII seems rather adequate.

You know what guys... I would be for removing Churchill MK-IV and VI from the game entirely, they were out-dated in Normandy anyways... Then the MK-VII would be just available after 4 Command Points for a price of 700MP and 90 fuel.

Outdated doesnt mean out of service + realistically the AVRE only existed as MK IV version and only after the war on basis of the MK VII

Also you would have to remove all stubby Tank IV´s as well and even the F2.

Also we have to fill somehow this tec line+ giving RE something to keep its "tec up advance" advantage (that you get always a proper solution to the changing battlefield conditions. Once this is halted the entire advance stops and turns into a attrition war which RE isnt so much suited for. Its based on exactly this.

So keep the MK IV and VI in one unlock and proceed with howittzer verion, MK VII and so on.

Well, my point was if Churchill MK-IV and VI would receive armor nerf due to adding the VII then I think the IV and VI would be totally useless!Thus.. removing them would be just better. Without touching 290mm AVRE (MK-IV) or 95mm Churchill (MK-V) as they would both keep same armor.

Another reason for removing MK-IV and VI would be the UI panel slots of the 3rd truck.. otherwise u will not have enough slots to add the VII, unless MarKr would maybe create a sub-menu in the 3rd truck in order to free some space for the VII versions.. but this "might" or "might not" be possible.

So, this way AVRE would be earlier available (from 3 CP to 2 CP only) and 95mm Churchill would still require 3 CP (instead of 5 CP) then the MK-VII would be available after 5 Command Points, maybe for a price of 600 MP and 90 Fuel.. then the Crocodile would be available for 8 CP same as now.

Tiger1996 wrote:Well, my point was if Churchill MK-IV and VI would receive armor nerf due to adding the VII then I think the IV and VI would be totally useless!Thus.. removing them would be just better. Without touching 290mm AVRE (MK-IV) or 95mm Churchill (MK-V) as they would both keep same armor.

Dude, how effective a unit is depends on its time of availability. When it has like 55% chance to bounce L48 guns and more or less guranteed bounce chance against 50 mm and that after 1 CP it, then i would say its not usless.

You always see late game scenarios where everybody has everything. Thats what i mean "tec advantage". You are always kind of one step ahead and force the enemie into defense. Thats How CW works and esspecially RE. Its not supposed to sit arround bc then you get killed by heavy AT and arty.

Another reason for removing MK-IV and VI would be the UI panel slots of the 3rd truck.. otherwise u will not have enough slots to add the VII, unless MarKr would maybe create a sub-menu in the 3rd truck in order to free some space for the VII versions.. but this "might" or "might not" be possible.

You have an entire second page not in use were you could add like 5 more tanks.

So, this way AVRE would be earlier available (from 3 CP to 2 CP only) and 95mm Churchill would still require 3 CP (instead of 5 CP) then the MK-VII would be available after 5 Command Points, maybe for a price of 600 MP and 90 Fuel.. then the Crocodile would be available for 8 CP same as now.[/quote]

MK VII would cost 600 and 90 bc it requires support, is slow and just armor with no anti tank power.