Wow Omid, thank you for taking the time to write a detailed response. Thank you for showing the chemical difference in the 2 processes and explaining how they are foundationally different.

In my previous post, I was using sufficient hydration to mean the equivalent of effective hydration. I was theorizing that long fermentation would achieve the same effect as a long classic autolyse (effective hydration). At least this is what I think you mean by effective hydration. If I am mistaken, please correct me on this. Omid is there a quantitative time that you use for effectivity hydration dough? Would autolysing with flour and water for say...4-5 hours be considered effectively hydrating the dough? I will be doing this test so I want to make sure I am following a general standard if there is one.

I will take your word that the 2 don't produce the same or very similar doughs and I'll see for myself in this my next experiment. In the mean time, a long fermentation still seems to hydrate a dough more than a straight mix dough with no autolyse.

Last night I made a batch of dough for this Friday's bake. I dropped my usual hydration by 2% to 66%. Mixed the flour, water, and salt and allowed it to sit covered for 5hours. I then mixed the yeast in and noted that the dough was more fluid than my normal 68% (with a 30min modified autolyse). I kneaded the dough in the usual fashion and then bulked ferment in the fridge till morning, 9p-6a. I divided and balled in the morning and again noted that the dough was softer and more extensible compared to my usual dough.

Omid, can you speculate what is going on here? What is causing the dough to soften like this with less water? Is it enzyme activity, improved hydration of the dough, hygroscopic action of salt, or a combination of the above?

I will also be making dough again tonight and will do 2 batches side by side.

Long Classic Autolyse (effective hydration) versus a long fermentation

Omid, you are using an internet gathered picture of the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, but you have no idea how right you are.

When I visited the Sistine Chapel and took many pictures of the ceiling, archeologists and artistic forensic specialists had just discovered that some parts of the original ceiling had been cleverly plastered over...concealing the true, original works of Michaelangelo. They were gingerly removing the plaster concealing the original works and I snapped this pic.

When I visited the Sistine Chapel and took many pictures of the ceiling, archeologists and artistic forensic specialists had just discovered that some parts of the original ceiling had been cleverly plastered over...concealing the true, original works of Michaelangelo. They were gingerly removing the plaster concealing the original works and I snapped this pic.

Dear Pizzablogger, I remember hearing, on NPR, about the concealment of other allegedly Michelangelo's artwork beneath the frescos. That man was a genius! By the way, that is a much healthier dough ball you placed in Adam's hand, thank you!

Omid is there a quantitative time that you use for effectivity hydration dough? Would autolysing with flour and water for say...4-5 hours be considered effectively hydrating the dough?

Dear Jackie Tran, you asked, “Omid is there a quantitative time that you use for effectivity hydration dough?”

As a prefatory remark, the chief objective of “effective hydration” (sometimes I like to refer to it as “hylozoic hydration”), not disjunct from quantity of hydration, is to make flour fluid enough (notice the adverb "enough") in order to be animated. As I have used the following analogy before, your hair (cf. flour) would not be responsive enough to shampoo (cf. culture/yeast) if it is not hydrated or fluid enough. Just as we are not able to consume hard, raw pinto beans, I hypothesize, in light of my experiments, that the fermentative micro-organisms within dough tend not to uniformly ferment the dough if it is not effectively hydrated. Un-hydrated flour is of no use to bacteria and/or fungi; the more fluid the particles of flour are the more fluently the micro-organisms can ferment the dough. So, I use this peculiar method of hydration in order to copiously exploit (explicāre, “to bring out the best”) the flour.

In my estimation, which could be erroneous, the timing—not exclusive of temperature—is indispensably critical in carrying out effective hydration, which I view as a musical overture to the opera of fermentation! “Overture” because it significantly sets the mood for the opera to follow. A poor overture can jeopardize a good opera! In regard to timing effective hydration, one should not just haphazardly pick an amount of time, such as 20 minutes or else. As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts in this thread, according to Aristotle such natural processes, e.g. hydration, are “rational” (derived from ratiō, "ratio" or "proportion"), meaning that one needs to proportionately ratio-nalize time, temperature, and portions of flour and water in relation to one another. With that in mind, the amount of time depends on the following factors:

1. Strength of flour (stronger flour needs more time),2. Quantity of water (lesser quantity of water requires more time),3. Absorbency rate of flour (less absorbent flour needs more time),4. Temperature of water-flour mixture in relation to ambient temperature (enzymatic reactions need proper temperatures to be activated and maintained),5. Native moisture of dry flour,6. The rate at which the starch content of flour is enzymatically converted to sugars,7. The rate at which the protein content of flour is enzymatically restructured as gluten strands, and8. Etc.

While keeping the above factors in periphery of your mind, employ your senses of sight, smell, and touch as a trustworthy implement to alarm you as to when enough is enough. There is really no set time. When the water-flour mixture is inspired (īnspīrāre, “to breathe in”) enough, it is no longer a mere mélange of water and flour, but quasi-pasta which immanently percolates an implicit pasta-esque aroma, color, and corporeal constitution—that can be learned mainly by repeated trials. Also, make sure to watch the temperature!

If you add a factor to one side of a mathematical equation, then the other side of the equation will suffer if you do not add a counterbalancing factor to it. Likewise, effectively hydrated dough requires less kneading afterwards, for the pasta-esque dough has already generated amino acids or gluten strands that can be over-fortified by superfluous kneading, which can oxidize dough beyond necessity. Therefore, effective hydration not only contributes to the flour being more responsive to cohesive fermentation, but also it reduces oxidation and its unpleasant impacts on dough by reducing the kneading time.

PN, your post about balancing the recipe out actually makes a lot of sense to me. I can understand and appreciate your hesitation in sharing specific details of your technique here. I was more or less wanting to see if I was in the ball park or not. I did the experiment as mentioned above and got some rather suprising results. I indeed had to make adjustments to the dough along the way to compensate for the effects of hydrating the dough and long fermentation.

I would assume, like a sponge soaking up water, that there is a point of maximum saturation where the flour becomes as hydrated as possible and no amount of time beyond that point would make a difference. Would that make sense?

I would assume, like a sponge soaking up water, that there is a point of maximum saturation where the flour becomes as hydrated as possible and no amount of time beyond that point would make a difference. Would that make sense?

Dear DannyG, it does make sense. I would assume that after the saturation point (the point at which wheat flour, CXHXOX + CXHXNXOX, receives no more of water, H2O) is reached, then the difference would be a matter of chemical reactions that generate alcohol CH2CHOH, carbon dioxide CO2, lactic acid C3H6O3, various sugars, gluten reformation, and etc. The more I study the chemistry of dough, the more I realize how complex and puzzling it is.

Wow...I believe this encompasses the soul of NP....Have read lots of stuff regarding what it takes to make a great pizza (your understanding of materials, senses, process and simplicity), but Chris Bianco personally told me that that every pizza he makes reflects what he is about as a person(striving for perfection) (my words), and if you want to know what Chris represents, the Rosa mirrors what Chris is about (the epitome or metaphor)...You have shared in a philosophical way, truly what it takes to make an excellent pizza, and I believe have implied that this is a constantly moving target and truly an art form in which your improved skills over time will make you a better pizziolo, striving to, but never to, achieve true perfection...Once again, Wow....RJelli

Logged

"Pizza Evolves...Our Best Pizza Ever is Not Today." It is 'what' is right, not 'who' is right that matters.

Pizza Napoletana. Thank you for sharing that link. I've watched a lot of Da Michele videos, but have never seen that one.

The more I watch videos of this place, the more I am convinced it is not to my personal liking.

At 0:55 the pizzamaker literally pummels the skin with what I personally consider to be way, way...and way too much sauce. The pliability of the dough and tender characteristics looks enticing, but that is just a totally soupy mess. To be blunt, the texture of the pizza in the middle with all the sauce and oil running amok almost looks like the consistency of spinach which has been cooked far too long and gets that nearly "phlegmy" texture. It may respresent truly authentic, but that doesn't mean one has to like it.

Understand I completely respect the tradition of Neapolitan pizza, but I also know my personal tastes. To me, for a pizza style that is so focused on the crust, that amount of sauce is pushing a disrespect of the crust, IMO.

The video is interesting in that it gives a close-up shot which shows the left side of the oven....that is a monster ember pile working there!

I also must agree with Pizzablogger on the sauce I realize this is the known as one of the best pizzas in the world But this "Pizza Napoletano" cooked here is more what I am in search of. Nice fire (flame making love to the oven dome) quick (think it was 60 sec?) and (In my not so trained eye) Beautiful!! as well http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SSvfOsX_s8&feature=related Dont get me wrong. De Michele will be one of my 1st stops when I make it to the promise land now that I can write off the entire trip on Flirting with ire I am starting to think "when?" John

I would assume, like a sponge soaking up water, that there is a point of maximum saturation where the flour becomes as hydrated as possible and no amount of time beyond that point would make a difference. Would that make sense?

It makes perfect sense. You may not want to let the flour and water "hang out" for undetermined amounts of time besides.

One thing to remember is that the activity of the protease enzymes begin when flour and water are combined, regardless of whether yeast is added or not.

So, if you are already utilizing a long fermentation time and added a long autolyse period to your process, you are increasing the amount of time the proteolytic activity occurs over. While the impact of extended gluten degradation may be minimal, it is something you should account for...particularly if employing ambient temperature autolyse and fermentation where the enzyme activity occurs more quickly at these warmer temps (as opposed to retarded fermentations).

All the more reason to pay attention to your senses and what the dough is telling you along the way, as Omid has correctly pointed out. --K

Wow...I believe this encompasses the soul of NP....Have read lots of stuff regarding what it takes to make a great pizza (your understanding of materials, senses, process and simplicity), but Chris Bianco personally told me that that every pizza he makes reflects what he is about as a person(striving for perfection) (my words), and if you want to know what Chris represents, the Rosa mirrors what Chris is about (the epitome or metaphor)...You have shared in a philosophical way, truly what it takes to make an excellent pizza, and I believe have implied that this is a constantly moving target and truly an art form in which your improved skills over time will make you a better pizziolo, striving to, but never to, achieve true perfection...Once again, Wow....RJelli

Dear Randy, I sincerely thank you for your compliments. I hope I have treated the tradition justly. Please, give my regards to Mr. Chris Bianco!