Jeronie Frias: “Jesus and Mary were sinless…” whose teaching is this that Mary is sinless?

BFHU: This is taught by the Catholic Church, the Church that Jesus Christ founded.

JF:There’s no verse anywhere else in the Scriptures that says Mary is sinless.

Are you aware that you are clinging to a Protestant tradition? There is no verse in Sacred Scripture that says all religious truth must be found explicitly in Scripture.
So we all believe in things that are not in Scripture. Your belief in Sola Scriptura was begun about 500 years ago. And it never would have taken hold if it was not begun after the printing press was invented which made Bibles more available and reading became more common. Before that most people were dependant upon the oral teachings of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

However the Catholic Church has believed in the sinlessness of Mary since the beginning. Even Martin Luther believed in Mary’s sinlessness see my post HERE

We absolutely do not equate Mary with or to Jesus. Jesus is Divine. Mary is a mere human. Adam and Eve were created without a sin nature, Jesus and Mary were also conceived and born without a sin nature. Adam and Eve sinned. Jesus and Mary did not sin. That does not make her divine. She is fully human exactly as God intended all mankind to be. But due to the sin of our first parents, mankind is fallen.

JF:(Jesus) has shed His blood for man’s salvation? Certainly it’s not Mary.

Not sure what you mean by, Certainly it’s not Mary.
If you mean “Mary did not shed her blood for man’s salvation” …that is true of course.

Brandon,
This appears to be false teaching to you and many Protestants because of what you have been taught. But for 1500 years all Christians believed in Mary’s immaculate conception, even Martin Luther!!!

The Christians who gave us the cannon of scripture, the Christians who were martyred for their faith during the infancy of the Christianity, the same Church who defended the Doctrine of the Trinity against the heretics, these all believed and taught the immaculate conception of Mary.

How is it logical, that 2000 years later you are so certain that what the Church has always believed is false teaching? By what or who’s authority is this change to the beliefs or our ancient Church thrown out?

As for “all have sinned”. This is a generalization not an absolute statement or else we would be unable to claim sinlessness for Jesus. He was a man. So, since we both agree that Jesus is an exception, then exceptions are possible and therefore there could logically also be an exception for Mary.

Regarding the Luke 7:28 passage Jesus was also born of woman. Would you also assert that John is greater than Jesus?

Romans 3:23 says “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” The reason Jesus is exempt from this is because He is God. He is the one in whom comparison everyone else has fallen short of. Everyone, everyone, has fallen short of the eternal glory of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Paul did not believe in the sinlessness of Mary, and neither did any of the other epistle writers. Why would God the Holy Spirit, author of the Bible, allow something so important to be left out of the New Testament. Why, in the epistles, would Paul never outline devotion to Mary as an essential and available part of the Christian faith?

I think part of your argument rests on the fact that the church teaches this. Does that make it true? Is the church infallible? The lessons we can take away from the epistles is that churches are made of people, and people make mistakes. Most of the epistles are Paul correcting churches – churches he had overseen and started! – from false doctrines they had fallen into very quickly. These people had the Apostles and the churches still suffered from ignorance of the Bible and “adding” on to the gospel they had received.

Is their one true church of Christ? A church, like the old song, is the people. It’s the people, their bibles, and Jesus as High Priest. So, in a way, every generation brings a new church. But that’s besides the point. If the church has developed a sinful tradition of raising Mary to a high position, attaching sinlessness to her, and calling her the Queen of Heaven, asking HER to pray for sinners (looking to Mary for salvation) – these qualities are too similar to the real qualities of Jesus Christ – He was sinless, He is the King of Heaven and Earth, He alone calls sinners to God, and He alone is our mediator between us and God (1 Timothy 2:5). God has provided everything!

Why pray to Mary, or venerate her, when we can pray to Jesus, and truly worship Him? Please, do not object simply because the church teaches differently. Prayerfully search your heart, read the Bible, and ask for the truth that God is ready to share.

God bless, I hope this is thought-provoking. I write to you not as a Catholic or a Protestant, but as a brother in Christ.

Anyway, it is just a great truth that whatever is beleived in the scripture today was determined by some set of people. They were the church fathers who determined the canonity of the scripture. Tradition has been existing before the scripture itself. Even the Gospel makes it clear that not everything that happened are contained ion the bible. For those who want to believe; “Church is older that Bible”, “Church compiled Bible under the influence of the Holy Spirit” So “The Church (Catholic) is always on a true ground and nothing can befall it”

Hello. Is this not the exact reason that people came to America to get away from the Catholic church? As for your comment about being unable to claim sinlessness for Jesus, that is completely unfounded because it states expressly in Scripture that Jesus is one with the Father, yet completely human. God is perfect. Therefore, Jesus is the one perfect man because He is God.

That’s very a very irresponsible thing to say. The first pilgrims were mainly puritans who left because they were persecuted by the Protestant Church of England. Catholic pilgrims would follow to avoid persecution by Protestants in Europe.

Well, if you say that is true…. {But for 1500 years all Christians believed in Mary’s immaculate conception, even Martin Luther!!! } then isn’t also true that ” for almost 2000 years, all Christians/nonbelievers, believed that the EARTH not the sun, was the center of the solar system/universe???” And well, we ALL know how that theory turned out… which brings me to this conclusion:

Immaculate Conception = a THEORY
Jesus = The Way, The Truth and The Life.

Unless you point to a single line in scripture that specifically says “Mary was without sin” then all you have is a theory, plain and simple, not truth, just a THEORY.

I reject your assertion that unless something is found specifically in scripture it is nothing more than a THEORY.

And for this reason:
There is not a single scripture that defines the Holy Trinity.

There is not a single scripture that lists the books that should be in the Bible.

And for Protestants:

There is not a single scripture that says the Bible and only the Bible contains all religious Truth–The doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

There is not a single scripture that says salvation is by Faith alone.

You have fallen for the Protestant habit of hypocrisy; which is to apply a standard to the Catholic Church (in order to prove she is not the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ Himself) but never apply that same standard to Protestant beliefs. Both Catholics and Protestants have doctrines and beliefs that CAN NOT BE FOUND EXPLICITLY IN SCRIPTURE. Therefore, one must decide who to trust: The Catholic Church which defined the doctrine of the Trinity and canonized the New Testament, founded by Jesus on Peter and the Blessed Apostles 2000 years ago or one the the thousands of Protestant denominations founded by various men , a mere 40 (Chuck Smith-Calvary Chapels) to 500 years ago Martin Luther.

Yes, It is right there in the Word, Eph 2:8 says: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Dear Melinda,
Yes, by grace we have been saved, through faith. But it clearly does not say through faith ALONE. If is did it would contradict hundreds of other verses that link eternal life with other things besides faith. Not that we could ever save ourselves by these things without Jesus. But we cannot just give the nod of faith to Christ and go on our merry way and live any way we want.

Matthew 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.

Matthew 19:29 And every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.

Mt 25: 31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,…34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’

37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’

41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Mark 10:17 a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”… 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” 20 And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have observed from my youth.” 21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing; go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”
Luke 10:25 And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have answered right; do this, and you will live.”

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

John 6:27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of man will give to you; for on him has God the Father set his seal….54he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:25 He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

Romans 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

Galatians 6:8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

These are just a few of the verses that link Eternal Life with doing things other than just having faith.

yes, that is true, but not what I said. I most certainly said nothing about going about doing whatever we wanted was acceptable. One would question one’s salvation if someone lived a life that was not pleasing to the Lord.
However, every one of those scriptures you quoted is meaningless without faith- which was my point.
Philippians 2:13 comes to mind: For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.
So, once you have been saved (BY FAITH ALONE), it is GOD who works in you to GIVE YOU the DESIRE to do the things that were merely done in our own strength prior to being saved (By Faith ALONE.)
This is unfortunately the reason so many misinformed people equate good works and their own good deeds with the reason they will get into Heaven. I know, because prior to being saved, I know too well that I was one of those people and would always answer “Heaven” whenever anyone asked me where I would go when I die. When asked how I would be sure, I would say as my reason: “because I am a good person” and then (when asked) list some of the things that I did that I felt qualified me or made me a worthy recipient/good person.
But the Bible also says that our righteousness is like filthy rags.
It doesn’t say Christ’s righteousness. Before being saved (By Faith), everything I did that made me a “good person” (in my own mind) was done in my own strength / “my own righteousness”. & it wasn’t pretty to God. I wasn’t really doing any of it for God, but was merely people pleasing, doing everything to look good to others, doing things to make people happy, or doing things to ease my own guilt over something I did.
Now that I have a standard to compare it to, I most certainly feel the difference. It is so amazing to feel the power of God living on the inside and changing my heart toward the things of God. There is no doubt that God has truly touched my heart and continues to change me.
It is most certainly He who works in me causing me to want to do the things He has planned for me to do…..changing my heart to want to do things that I never before would ever have done!
Praise you Lord Jesus!

@ Melinda: Why not let scripture speaks for itself instead of punctuating everything with your own slant of interpretation (“By Faith Alone”)? You’re adding something extraneous to scripture which is peculiarly Protestant and not necessarily of orthodoxy. In fact, the only time “faith” is specifically quantified “alone” in scripture is contrary to your presupposition:

Jamess 2:24“You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone“.

The notion of faith or works is an example of a false dichotomy. You cannot have faith without works nor can you have true works without faith.

It never ceases to amaze me when Protestants are so quick to repeat the cliche: “All of our works/righteousness are like filthy rags”. I can see how this is applied to someone who is not working out of grace, but how can God not be pleased with our obedient service? Totally dependent upon God for ultimate salvation is one thing, it’s abominable to call God’s greatest creation – man made in his own image – as “totally depraved” according to your Calvinistic theology. Do you honestly think that a non-believer mother cannot love and protect her baby unselfishly by maternal instinct (or by the law written in her heart)? I don’t recall the beatitudes making any distinction of partiality of mankind.

I will copy, cut, and paste your very first question to me, but now I will use it in response to a serious teaching in the Catholic Church: Mary being sinless!
So, here’s your question back at you: “Why not let scripture speaks for itself instead of punctuating everything with your own slant of interpretation?”
Anyway, it seemed VERY funny to me that this advice was being given to me when I was simply trying to explain a scripture not change what is in the Bible!
….I do, however, most certainly AGREE that this is a very good question at the very least, but more importantly you were very clearly offering it to me as advice. So- I would have to say that I TOTALLY AGREE that this is very good advice and I am glad you see the value of not adding anything to scripture!
I do hope more Catholics will listen to your advice.,..especially with regard to Mary being sinless!!!… because- in your own words, I again quote: “it is peculiarly protestant to add something to scripture.”
To refute all that nonsense in your above blog, I should have just quoted: Please take the log from your own eye before trying to take the splinter from someone else’s………but as a former Catholic, I know very well, that I would never have known what that meant unless someone explained it to me because I wasn’t reading the Bible or listening to sermons where it was being explained- so that we could use the wisdom in our everyday lives.

Well, anyway, now that we both agree that we should let scripture speak for itself, I will no longer try to explain IN MY OWN WORDS (which is clearly what I was doing BTW when I used the word ALONE- I was most certainly not adding anything to scripture. I was simply trying to help Catholics see (by emphasizing a very important point:) that sometimes people, in our own humanness, try to do things for selfish reasons to glorify ourselves (typically this happens before being saved by faith, and sometimes even a bit after being saved until God helps us to understand the difference between doing things in our own strength (or doing our own good deeds with our own selfish motives) as opposed to letting God prompt us to do the good things He wants us to do. Once we are saved by faith, IT IS GOD who works in US to WANT to do the things that HE wants us to do.
IN SIMPLE TERMS- HE CHANGES OUR HEARTS…..I LIKE TO ASK HIM TO KEEP CHANGING “MY WANTER” TO WANT THE THINGS THAT HE WANTS ME TO DO!
I would never want to waste my time doing good things if they were clearly not the good things that God had planned for me to do in my lifetime. I would be spinning my wheels trying to do something good and end up trying to be someone that God didn’t want me to be.
So, instead of explaining anymore about HOW GOD WORKS IN US to want to do the works that He has layed out for us to do, I will follow your excellent advice and copy and paste Eph 2:8 -9 again and let the scripture that I HAD BEEN REFERRING TO, SPEAK FOR ITSELF- AS IT IS VERY CLEAR .

Here it is again:
Eph 2:8-9
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.”

Moving right along, the other serious concern I have is regarding an insult. I was insulted and saddened not for me, but for my God, who put those words on my heart- the very Words that you term a “mere cliche” come straight from Heaven. It was not me, but His Word that you rejected when you called it a cliche.
I am concerned for you because although this could very well simply be ignorance on your part, it was a very serious offense to our God and His Holy Word. I do not think God was pleased when we argue over things that He has already made very clear in His Word, so since I sometimes quote scripture (not necessarily knowing the verse) I looked it up for you so that you would know I was not using a cliché, but quoting God’s Word.
He put it on my heart when I was trying to explain something (see above blog) (which is the reason I quoted God from Philippians 2:13, too… in another blog up above as well (but that time I knew the verse in addition to where in the Bible it came from). Both scriptures came immediately to mind in response to the truth that He wanted me to convey in the blog. When they came to mind, I simply wrote them to convey a truth from God’s heart to you and anyone reading this/or the above blog.) If you still have a problem with God’s Word after seeing that it is clearly not a cliche, you really should take it up with Him and not with me for being obedient and speaking the truth which came directly from His heart to mine and then to this blog.
Here is the scripture…I bolded the part that you said was a cliche:
Isaiah 64:6 (NLT)
We are all infected and impure with sin.
WHEN WE DISPLAY OUR RIGHTEOUS DEEDS, THEY ARE NOTHING BUT FILTHY RAGS.
Here’s another translation of Isaiah 64:6- (NIV)
All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and ALL OUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS ARE LIKE FILTHY RAGS;

I really highly doubt you have a problem with God’s Word. I grew up Catholic, and I know too well that Bibles were rarely used- let alone read on a daily basis as part of desiring to walk rightly with Him and as a tool in getting to know Him better. We just didn’t do it.

It wasn’t until I was saved BY FAITH, that God started working in me CAUSING ME TO WANT to get to know Him better by reading and memorizing scripture in His Word.
At that time (since accepting Him by faith) and now that HE is working in me to want to do it, I purposed in my heart to start memorizing scripture. It was then that God would start using the very scriptures I memorized, calling them to my mind just when I needed them! That’s how He communicates with us, through His Word. He writes it on our hearts. In order to grow and mature in Christ we need to spend time with Him daily in His Word so that we start recognizing the truths He is speaking to us as they come to our minds! Then we won’t misinterpret something from Heaven as being a cliche.

Thank you all for trying to seek the truth with all your heart, mind and soul. I PRAY AND KNOW that God WILL reveal Himself to you AS YOU SEEK HIM DAILY IN HIS WORD!!!
I rarely have this kind of time that I have spent on the computer yesterday and today, but have been on vacation. If God prompts me, I will come back again this summer. 🙂

@ Melinda: You must stop proof texting habitually by isolating the meaning of a particular verse from its context.

Eph 2:8-9: Nothing there is proving by faith alone. If anything, the whole chapter speaks of being saved by” grace alone” which is quite different from by faith alone. And don’t just stop there ‘cos the very next verse (v 10) says: “For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do GOOD WORKS, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” Maybe we can at least agree on “a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law … not by faith alone … for faith apart from works in dead … but faith working through love” (Rom 3:28; Jas 2:24, 26; Gal 5:6).

Isa 64:6: Don’t forget the verse immediately preceding it (v 5) which says, “You (God) meet him who joyfully works righteousness.” Again, context – context. The Isaiah passage refers to a particular historical and specific setting (Ancient Israelites, 760-670 BC). it does not say that all acts of righteousness are unacceptable to God when applied in the wider universal and theological context.

Don’t go beyond what’s written … and don’t try to prove too much beyond what scripture does not say. There’s no magical favorable legal pronouncement for a guilty person on the basis of imputation (“snow-covered dunghill”) alone. Rather, one is to be infused with grace and changed into a new creation in Christ. Our righteous acts do not produce salvation but are, in fact, evidence of our salvation (Jas 1:22).

first of all for this generalization you are talking about is not generalization if it were it would say in the bible in general all have sinned when it clearly states that all have sinned an fallen short jesus is the only exception for he is the son of god and since all scripture is god inspired 2 timothy 3;16 and can not lie no were in the bible does it say that mary jesus mother was sinless but it does say 1 peter 2;21-22 this is all scriptural if it not in the holy bible then you are only assuming that Mary was sinless unless it is in the bible it is not scripturaly True Therfore it is a lie you are being told to keep you from the truth because the devil is the father of lies if its not in the bible as teaching it is False this is why protestant and catholic cant get along because of this and other lies i urge you friend to read the bible for yourself if its not in it its not true doctrine . We need to stop this fighting and get are heads together and unite catholic and protestant under one flag jesus christ because he is the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the father but by him john14.6 because what happens when the enemy attacks he divides an conquers and this is what the devil has done so we need to unite and overthrow the ruler of this world satan.Amen Brother if anyone would like too exchange email or info or want to chat here is my email stuarty2981@gmail.com

Dear Roy,
All, as in absolutely all, have not sinned. We all have a fallen nature but it just is not true that an infant can actually, willfully sin. Jesus was fully man and He did not sin. So we have an exception…many exceptions if you count all babies….so there is no reason to be so sure that Mary did sin, except b/c Protestants are always Protest-ing the Catholic Church.

All Scripture is inspired. No doubt about it. But neither this verse nor any other verses in scripture support the recent doctrinal invention known as Sola Scriptura.
Protestants are always trying to tell Catholics that their beliefs are not in Scripture but this preeminent, Protestant, foundational belief is NO WHERE to be found in Scripture, either. So it is pretty much the pot calling the kettle black.

Romans says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Unless you deny that Jesus is God, then yes, Scripture is very clear that He alone is the exception. This is clearly not a generalization.

It is perfectly logical for Mary to have been a Virgin and to have been Immaculate at her conception. Why? She was to be the God-bearer. God the Son could not have been conceived in a sinful womb. She had to have been without original sin just like Eve was before the fall. Mary, by her acceptance, became the new Eve.

I had trouble with all that for a long time, being raised a Southern Baptist, but now I see and experience the fullness of the truth of Jesus Christ and the Church he founded. He said the Gates of Hell would not prevail and they haven’t and the Church has been through some rough times.

Churches that were founded 1400-1500 years after the Catholic Church, meaning universal, have only this to stand on; they were mad, upset, chose to follow someone else and broke away or saw political and economic gain. Was Luther wrong in condeming abuses? Absolutely, but even he had no intention to leave the Catholic Church, but got caught up in a political malestrom and succumbed to political and economic pressure. People, now, are putting their own personal interpretations above the authority of Christ’s own Church, the tradition and teaching authority carried own from the apostles. It’s still, over 2000years later, ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC and APOSTOLIC CHURCH folks. Please take a close, educated and unbiased look. Read David Currie’s book Born Fundamentalist,Born Again Catholic or Scott Hahn’s book Rome Sweet Home before you answer.

Grace is permanent, not temporary. Grace is a gift of God that saves you from sins. But is Mary sinless? The bible didn’t explicitly say it, so it has to be a man-made thinking. But Gabriel as a messenger of God, delievered a message from God to Mary: Hail! Full of grace! The Lord is with thee! He said this before Christ God dwelled in her through the holy spirit. Since God only allows sinless people to dwell with him in heaven, what makes you think that he will dwell in a sinner’s womb? Thats lffensive to his greatest glory. And, I don’t see Jesus, also God, calling any other men or women ‘Full of Grace’, not even his blessed apostles. However, Jesus called Mary ‘Woman’. Like how Adam called Eve a ‘Woman’ in OT. The Sinless people. Woman in the past is referred to a lady of high status. Even Jesus knew she is worthy to be honoured.

Okay you disbelieve and tell me its still man-made, okay, So I have to follow other Protestant churches right? Oh wait, which one of the thousands? Please help me cos they are claiming that EACH of them are true. What? God separated people? I don’t get it. Body or bodies of Christ?

As to your comment about God only dwelling in a sinless womb: It seems to me that it is very contradictory for Catholics or anyone to believe that God would never dwell in anything other than a sinless womb……really??? I thought that the whole purpose of Jesus coming to earth was for God to dwell with sinful man, eat with tax collectors, drunkards, and other immoral everyday otherwise hopeless people in order to relate to them and ultimately save them from their sin!!! The God I know has always humbled Himself and STILL DOES (He, the Holy Spirit, dwells in all believers today! Thank God for His humility!!! I don’t know about you, but I KNOW I am sinful!)
Anyway…. my point is: Of course God would dwell in a sinless womb!!! He gave up his Kingdom to be born in a stinky stable for goodness sake! He washed the disciples feet and ALWAYS HUMBLED HIMSELF TO REVEAL HOW “PRIDEFUL MAN” WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ACTING.
More food for thought: I also would think that anyone who spent any time in the Word, AS OPPOSED TO OTHER ABOVE MENTIONED BOOKS, that this person would know that the Holy Spirit dwells IN ALL believers!!!) and YET WE ARE CLEARLY NOT SINLESS!!! So, I implore you to ASK GOD TO REVEAL THE TRUTH TO YOU, then search your hearts and THE WORD for the truth on this matter: If you are so very certain that the Son of God would never dwell in a sinful woman, How is it then that the sinless son of God would come to live in you and I? ARE WE, TOO, ALL SINLESS IN ORDER FOR THE HOLY SPIRIT TO DWELL IN US???
Where does it end? Did Mary’s parents have to be sinless too, in order for her to be sinless??? God made it very clear in His Word that we should not add anything to scripture or take away from it. When you hold on to something like that (Mary being sinless) as being the “Gospel Truth” and actually argue that it HAS TO BE TRUE, THEN YOU ARE COMING DANGEROUSLY CLOSE TO ADDING TO THE WORD OR YOU WOULD NOT ARGUE ABOUT IT SO PASSIONATELY.
One of the reasons I am so passionate about this is because I know what the Bible says about Satan being a deceiver. He comes to steal, kill and destroy. It is his mission to drag people away from their only hope: a personal relationship with Jesus, the perfect son of God-AND THEIR ONLY WAY TO HEAVEN…What more deceptive a way can their be than to get people to continue a pagan lifestyle by making it acceptable in a “Christian church” to pray to and worship “other Gods”.
It is very clear in scripture that Jesus came to this earth to model for us how to live our lives. So, with that being said:
I CHOOSE TO FOLLOW JESUS ….

….THE JESUS WHO CLEARLY HONORED HIS MOTHER (AND EARTHLY FATHER, JOSEPH) AND TREATED HER (THEM) WITH THE UTMOST RESPECT…..
…. BUT WHO NEVER PUT HIS MOTHER (OR ANYONE ELSE) ABOVE GOD AS BEING PERFECT AND WITHOUT SIN, WORTHY TO BE PRAISED. HE RESERVED THAT UTMOST HIGHEST OF ALL PLACES FOR HIS FATHER IN HEAVEN WHO DESERVES ALL THE GLORY.

….yes, even “THAT” HE MODELED FOR US, AND GOING IN ANY OTHER DIRECTION WOULD BE OPPOSED TO CHRIST AND HIS TEACHING.
I, for one, want to repent of the sinful things God reveals to me, and THEN come follow Him…..Jesus never told us to follow Him any other way! He lovingly pointed out what was needed and THEN said, “Come Follow Me.”……..He NEVER told us (ANYONE IN THE BIBLE) to HOLD ONTO THINGS THAT WERE SINFUL and that we could still come Follow Him……No, He reveals things to us and then ALLOWS US TO CHOOSE WHETHER OR NOT WE WILL COME FOLLOW HIM.
It’s up to you and me (all prospective followers of Christ) to PRAY FOR GOD TO REVEAL HIMSELF (THE TRUTH) TO US- AND THEN FOR US TO SEARCH THE WORD AND OUR HEARTS…..At that point we then decide the path we will take AFTER God reveals the truth to us.
I am praying for God to reveal the truth to all of His sheep, Catholics in particular, as I, too, grew up in a Catholic family not knowing the truth-
So, this is yet another very important reason for my passion and for this topic being so very near and dear to my heart. It hurts me deeply that so many of my friends and loved ones are being deceived.
But- He assures me in His Word: “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.” John 10:27
Praise the Lord who reveals the truth to us in His Word!

Worship of Mary is an abomination and condemned by the Catholic Church. Protestants are taught that we worship Mary because we ask her to pray for us or because we honor her and call her “Blessed” just like the Bible says. That is not worship. Protestants are taught to misinterpret what we do and say as worship. That is the sin of slander.

I’ve read a lot of apostolic fathers, and I’ve never come across any reference to an “immaculate conception” for centuries after the gospels were written. The doctrine of “original sin” as you understand it wasn’t even defined until St. Augustine, so no one defined a doctrine that said that Mary was exempt from “original sin” before then. How could they? The concept of “original sin” didn’t exist.

You’re dishonest when you say that all Christians believed in the immaculate conception prior to the Reformation. Catholics are always claiming that their doctrines have always existed in the Church, and were merely “defined” at some point in time by the Vatican, but that isn’t so. I’ve just proven it in regards to the immaculate conception.

Your posts regarding the nature of the Church as “one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic” and “sola scriptura” are also flawed. There wasn’t “one church” until the Reformation. Are you not aware of the Coptic Church, the Syrian-Jacobite Church, the Mar Thomas Church of India, the Assyrian Church of the East, or the various Orthodox bodies? All of these Churches date back to the early Christian centuries – the claim of the Orthodox Church is arguably better than the claim of the Roman Catholic Church, since the Orthodox Church has maintained the earlier form of the Nicene Creed and has made fewer doctrinal innovations from the early Christian era. The Church was fractured into pieces long before Luther or Calvin step foot on the scene. You’re just being obtuse or hoping that poorly-educated Protestants won’t notice your over-simplification of Church history.

I agree that the gospel was originally transmitted via oral teaching. Does that mean that the church can proclaim teachings that aren’t in the Bible? If that were so, then why did the church fathers label the Bible the “canon,” which means the MEASURE, and why did they limit the canon to the writings of the apostolic era? They clearly believed that the Church had no authority to innovate new doctrines, and that the writings of the apostles were authoritative. (Note – you’ll claim that the Nicene fathers already believed many Catholic doctrines, but this is largely false. “Priests” were just understood as presbyters back then, since the word is literally just a contraction of “presbyter,” and the word “priest” hadn’t yet acquired its shamanistic connotations. The fact that the church had “priests” doesn’t mean they believed what you believe – that’s just linguistic slight of hand.) If they understood the Bible as authoritative, then the doctrines of the church certainly can’t contradict the Bible. There have been times when people have speculated about doctrines and failed to notice how their speculations conflicted with scripture, but that doesn’t mean that scripture is not authoritative over these speculations.

If your theory regarding scripture were true, there never would have been a “canon” in the first place. Christian scriptures would resemble the scriptural traditions of Mahayana Buddhism, which has a sprawling library of books that can always be added to, and includes many books from later spiritual masters besides the Buddha. There would be no “Bible.” Writings like the Clementine Epistles, Shepherd of Hermas, St. Augustine’s City of God, Justin Martyr’s apologetic series, and others would stand beside Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John as full scripture.

I’m glad you find the RCC a more congenial spiritual home than the SBC. But I think you’ve jumped out of the frying pan in the deep fryer! If you were dissatisfied with the dogmatism, illogical teachings, and anti-intellectualism of the Southern Baptists, you aren’t going to find anything better in the RCC. For a while, you’re going to be fascinated by the deft semantic games that Catholic theologians play, the effortless way they equivocate the definitions of words to reach these elaborate and over-wrought doctrinal conclusions…you’ll be dazzled by the merger of religious and ethnic traditions, which gives you a church with a history of cuisine, artistry, and architecture that probably seems rich and fascinating compared to your Southern Baptist roots…but eventually, you’re going to realize the truth. The truth is this – no one can take your to Jesus or give you a relationship with God through Christ but YOU. All any church can do is point you to the door. The sooner you realize this, the better. Then you’ll stop trying to get right with God through religious organizations like the SBC or the RCC and start being open to God wherever you are right now. When you understand that, you’ll see how silly you’ve been.

I never said I was dissatisfied with the SBC churches, I wasn’t. I had no intention of returning to the Catholic Church after a 40 year absence, but God had other plans for me and all my Baptist friends KNOW without ANY DOUBT that it was the movement of the Holy Spirit in my life that called me back. They affirm that call in my life. I have letters from them attesting to that fact. We still pray together and pray for each other, Yes, I do ask Mary and all the Saints to intercede for me, my family and my friends in prayer, just like I ask my family and my friends to do for me and others. My Baptist friends email me with their prayer requests and I do pray for them and send my prayer requests to them.

I have a more deeply personal relationship with Jesus Christ, now, than I ever have had. I am more open to the prompting of the Holy Spirit than I have ever been. I’m very sorry if I struck a nerve, which I must have done for you to repsond in such a mean spirited manner , calling me silly and to comment on my own personal realationship with Jesus Christ when you don’t know me. All you know of me is how inartfully I may express myself. Pax Christi

Actually, the immaculate conception was not believed for 1500 years. Read historical texts. The Catholic Church we see now did not form until the 7th or 8ith century, the same time the papacy formed. From around 1100 to 1500 AD a majority of priests had never read the bible, including Martin Luther. The Reformation had early beginnings in the 12th century with John Wycliffe and John Huss but they were burned for “Heresy.” The idea of Mary being a perpetual virgin did not come about until the 4th century with a handful of monks who abhored sex and saw it as evil. Augustine and another monk argued vehemently over whether or not Jesus’ brothers were from Mary and Joseph or from Joseph in a previous marriage. Protestantism is a very innacurate term that should not be applied to all non-catholic denominations. The catholic church itself is divided and has been for over a thousand years. Eastern Orthodox is actually older than the Roman Catholic Church. Read history people and you will discover truths.

Again… provide ACTUAL scripture to support your THEORY that Mary is any way, shape or form a mediator between us and Jesus?

To “mediate” is by definition: ” to form a connecting link between”.

That is Jesus’ role, to be that connecting link between man/woman/child and God. Jesus specifically states this…

“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” -John 14:6

Jesus also dimisses Mary as being His mother:

And his mother and His brothers came, and standing outside they sent to Him and called Him. And a crowd was sitting around Him, and they said to Him, “Your mother and Your brothers are outside, seeking You.”

Answering them, He said, “Who are My mother and My brothers?”
Looking about at those who were sitting around Him, He said, “Behold My mother and My brothers!

“For whoever does the will of God, he is My brother and sister and mother.” -Mark 3: 31-35

His family even (mother and brother’s) even thought he was crazy, so obviously, how could Mary be sinless if she herself denied her Son’s deity:

And when His family heard it, they went out to seize Him, for they were saying, “He is out of his mind.” -Mark 3:21

Clearly Jesus’s family includes His mother and brothers, for it states in verse 31 that ” And His mother and His bothers came…”

By claiming He was crazy, they denied his deity and therefore, sinned. And if you claim Mary was “sinless” well, that clearly provides the truth…

And just so that you are not deceived, here is more evidence to prove the fact that Mary is not to be worshiped in any way, shape or form…

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.”
-Exodus 20: 4-6

Please, if you chose Catholicism, fine, for EVERY church/denomination has their flaws…BUT please no the difference between honor and just plain idolatry….

That was somewhat of a typical response. Wouldn’t the appropriate thing to do have been to go ahead and show her, especially since it may have strengthened her faith or lead her to trust what you are saying is true? Anyway, I like her, believe you are incorrect about Mary being a mediator. 1 Timothy 2:15 is rather blatant that Jesus is our only mediator.

I feel as though if God were going to leave something for us (like a guide) on how to reach everlasting life through Him (aka the Bible), He would have been sure to get all the important ‘need to know’ info in there. If we needed Mary to mediate, that seems pretty important.. And there are several opportunities where it would have been appropriate for Jesus to mention the importance of Mary (should it really have been that important) yet the Bible is silent on that issue? What about Luke 11:27, 28?

Catholics believe Mary only intercedes, not act as a mediator like her divine son. We believe she intercedes, like how She interceded with her son at the Wedding of Cana. At first, Jesus as God refused to change water into wine for the wedding family but in the end, what did he do? He submitted himself to Mary as he honours her. Who even dares to command God to do something God himself doesn’t find a need to?

And Jesus at the Cross told Mary to behold John as her son and John to behold Mary as his mother. They are not related at all. Brothers and sisters of Christ are misinterpreted. There are no words in Koine Greek that mean relatives & friends, so ‘brothers and sisters’ do not necessarily mean blood-related siblings. Jesus did not reject Mary as his Mother, instead he called her Woman – which is a title for a lady with high status in the past. Much more honourable than calling his mother merely a title of ‘mother’.

Quote:
“I will be happy to discuss this further when you “provide ACTUAL scripture to support your THEORY that” it is necessary for any Christian belief to be found explicitly in Scripture.”

Response:
[1 Timothy 2:5]
“For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,”

scriptures speaking against the…”Queen of Heaven”. There are strong warnings against this practice…so why then does the RCC choose to call Mary this title?

Jer 7:18
Jer 44:17-25

I find it disturbing that the RCC chooses to cross the boundaries God has set in His word…even if creative theological arguments are used to justify the tradition, it is at the very least flirting with the commandment against these actions…and are we not supposed to “avoid even the appearance of evil”? Why is tradition held up as more important to maintain than simply “pursuing sanctification” for His Glory alone?

Dear Jag,
We do not cross any boundaries in God’s Word. Jesus IS the one Mediator between God and Man. He too is the mediator between God and Mary. She prays for us and God answers her prayers and ours through Jesus and then through Mary just like He does when your mom or pastor or the prayer chain at church prays for you. If our asking Mary to pray for us crosses scripture then so does asking any other human to pray for you as well as prayer chains, prayer groups.

Your question regarding the passages in Jeremiah that speak against the Queen of Heaven is a very good one. But it is easily answered. It could not have been speaking about Mary since Jeremiah lived long before Mary was born. The “Queen of Heaven” refers to to idolatrous worship of Astoreth. The fact that the phrase was used for an idol 700 years before the birth of Mary does not make our calling her the Queen of Heaven equivalent to idolatry. There were many pagan stories about the Son of some God come down to men. That does not make the Incarnation of God the Son, pagan.

God is our King; Mary is the Queen. God is our Father; Mary is our Mother. In the eyes of Protestants, with a deep hunger to excoriate the Catholic Church, these titles suggest that we believe that God and Mary are equal. But we do not. Mary was a mere human, blessed by the power of God to be born without a fallen, sin nature, just like Adam and Eve. Unlike them, she never gave in to temptation. Therefore she is the only mere human to resist sin her whole life. That makes her unique and blessed. Jesus made her our mother from the cross and Rev. 12 refers to her as our mother.

Mary is the Queen Mother of her son the King of Heaven. Protestants have a Heveanly Father without a Heavenly mother and a King of Heaven without a Queen of Heaven. Because the Catholic Church has the Fullness of Faith, we have both.

The Catholic Church is against idolatry and the Catholic Church respects Mary. And the Catholic Church believes no one comes to the father except through Jesus. Mary just intercedes for us and prays for us.

Please clarify your answer here Spencer. Are you indeed quoting John 14:6 which reads : “Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'” If you are well that’s kind of silly considering that scripture directly contradicts praying to Mary or any other saints since this scripture clearly states no one gets to the Father except through Jesus Christ. Jesus is the one and only way end of story. Now I realize this verse is talking about eternal salvation, however if Jesus is the only way to heaven why would there be any other route of prayer to God. No one else can hear your prayers besides Jesus who is the one constantly interceding for us to the Father. (Romans 8:23) It’s also possible you are referencing John 6:44, and in that case you are just misquoting scripture as the rest of that scripture states unless the Father who sent me draws him. Scripture makes it clear that Jesus is the only one who has ever seen God. (John 1:18) What more proof do you need that if anyone is interceding for us it’s Jesus since He is 100 percent God and 100 percent man. There is no other like Him and by praying to Mary and other saints you are saying Christ isn’t enough for you. Jesus is eternal, He was there with God in the beginning as John 1 declares. To pray to anyone else is to me putting your trust in something other than Jesus and I’d be scared for my soul if I was putting my trust in anything besides Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

We believe that No saints are dead, but alive in Christ according to John and Matthew. Yes, no one comes to God the Father except through Jesus Christ. We absolutely believe that Jesus is the Way, the Truth & the Life. We also believe he is the Only mediator! But there’s a difference between mediation & intercession. Mediation refers to the sacrificial death on the cross that allows sinners to be cleansed and enter heaven through juatification. However, intercession means to plead or make a petition to someone, it can also be made on behalf of another individual or group. So it doesnt contradict the sacred Scripture when we invoke the names of Mary, Angels and Saints; like the way we call our brothers and sisters – to pray WITH or FOR us. Praying for one another is in fact pleasing to God! Definitely not worshipping them as Gods.

In Book of Revelations, the elders presented incense of the prayers of saints before God. Do the saints only refer to those on Earth? What ’bout those who had led exemplary Christian lives and are brought into the Kingdom of heaven, whom God only allows Sinless souls to enter? Aren’t they saints too? We believe in one Body of Christ, you’re in communion with it, no matter on earth or in heaven. According to Matthew, God is a God of the Living, not of the Dead. You’re greatly mistaken.

As you know the famous changing of water into wine, it was upon the intercession (her request) of Mary during the Wedding at Cana. Jesus initially refused but in the end, he still followed Mary’s request. Which creature in the Bible dares to request the Creator of All Things to do something the Creator he himself doesn’t find a need to? That shows Mary’s power in intercession, just like how Abraham & Josue prayed for their victories in wars to protect people. When they stopped, they lost.

I will first start with Jesus Changing water into wine upon MAry’s request? Really come on you think Jesus wasn’t going to change the water into wine regardless? Jesus is GOD, Mary is a regular human she has no authority to tell God what to do, Jesus didn’t do that upon MAry’s request whatsoever. God doesn’t take orders from anyone, He will not be persuaded by the arrogance of men. Please stop trying to justify Mary’s importance by telling me God listened to her, if you at all knew what God was like you would know that God knew He was going to turn that water into wine, no one persuades God to do anything, He is omnipotent and omnipresent and He know everything before it happens.

Now on to the saints argument. You are correct that saints are alive with Jesus in heaven but no where in the Bible does it give even a hint that anyone who is already dead can hear our prayers besides God because again He is omnipotent. Yes we pray with others here on Earth, because they are still physically alive and we can see them and communicate with them. There is no hint or inkling that we can communicate with anyone in heaven that has previously passed on to be with the Lord except God Himself, and Jesus Christ who hears our prayers and intercedes with us to the Father. I understand your point but there is no scripture that states any saints or anyone in Heaven can hear our prayers. If you don’t want to believe that fine but at that point you are trusting in something other than God and if i were you I wouldn’t do. Another thing is heaven is going to be so amazing and we are going to be too busy worshiping God for all eternity to be focused on anything else. To say that saints can here our prayers or anyone else who isn’t God can hear prayers is giving them a power ONLY God Almighty has so please don’t do that

At the wedding of Cana, First, the word woman is a word used by Jesus – which refers to a lady with high status in the past. That shows Jesus’ honour of his own chosen mother. The second is to look at the phrase that Jesus used. “What have you to do with me?” When we look at it, we have to look at it understanding who Jesus is and how the bible portrays him. It portrays him as a man who followed the Jewish law completely, without sin. So we know he wasn’t being rude, so what was he saying? It has more of a tone of “That is not our concern” or “It’s none of our business”. Also,
It’s almost as if Jesus is saying “Do you realize what you are asking of me? It’s not the time I planned to start my ministry. You want me to perform my first miracle? Was Jesus already planning to do so? He acceded to his chosen Mother’s request nonetheless.

This is a explanation given by an Apologist – One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints themselves in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions , collect and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

Well, nothing is impossible through God’s almighty power. Firstly, we only invoked their names to ASK them to pray FOR or WITH us to God. It is not as if we distrust God’s mercy and grace. Instead, we put a higher degree of trust on God’s almighty power, mercy and grace to allow our Brothers & Sisters in heaven to pray for us. It is pleasing to God. As long as it does not offend God’s will, anything is possible.

Nowhere is it written in the Bible that the Bible must be our ONLY AUTHORITY!

Matthew 28:19-20 is known as the Great Commission. Here, Jesus tells the apostles to baptize and teach what He taught them. Jesus did NOT instruct the Church to go and write a book. Jesus Himself NEVER wrote a book. Jesus would have been the most logical one to do so IF this is what He intended; to build a church based on a book. The Church is built by teaching others through preaching the teachings of Jesus. Faith comes from what is preached (Romans 10:17). The Church existed BEFORE the Bible. The Church has authority (Luke 10:16 and 3rd John 1:9). For the Church, BOTH the Bible and the Tradition are authoritative (2nd Thessalonians 2:15 & 1st Corinthians 11:2). Nowhere is it written in the Bible that the Bible must be our ONLY AUTHORITY! In fact, the Bible teaches us that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1st Timothy 3:15).

Contrary to what many non-Catholics believe, ALL traditions are NOT condemned in the Bible. Apostle Paul even says to shun those who do not follow the Traditions which have been passed on to them. (2nd Thessalonians 3:6) See also 2nd Thessalonians 2:15. John 21:25 “there are also many other things that Jesus did; if every one of them were written down, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.”

the Bible is the only book we need.
ANSWER : One cannot find the method or ceremony of marriage in the Bible. The marriage ceremony is a tradition which has been passed down through generations’ relatively unchanged beginning with the Church. Other Protestant churches simulate it. (2nd Thessalonians 2:15 our faith must be based on “traditions and letters”.)

Is the Bible Alone enough? Is the bible self explanatory? (in Acts 8:30-31) Philip asked a man, “do you understand what you are reading?” the man replied, “how can I, UNLESS SOMEONE GUIDES ME?” and the man invited Philip. (In 2nd Peter 1:20) scripture’s prophecy is NOT a matter of one’s own interpretation. [These verses imply a teaching authority in the Church]. The Bible does NOT tell us what books should be included in the Bible and what books should not be included in the Bible. It should be noted that the inventor of the printing press – Johannes Gutenberg is a Catholic, and that the First Book he printed is a Catholic Bible (1455AD) containing the 73 books. Chronologically, later in the history, after 1455AD, the Protestants deleted 7 books from the Old Testament.

for the Protestants, the Bible ALONE is the pillar of truth.
For the Catholic, the pillar and foundation of truth is the Church (see 1st Timothy 3:15). We are NOT to interpret the Bible in isolation but with the Church (2nd Peter 3:16; 2nd Peter 1:20 & Acts 8:31 “someone guides me”.)

“Can a Protestant believe that the Church fell into grievous error before the ink was dry on the last pages of the New Testament? Can a Protestant believe that such a fallen Church was able to hand on an INFALLIBLE New Testament or come to correct conclusions about the Trinity?” For Protestants, the Church is NOT the pillar and foundation of truth. They need to reform and/or establish a new church/ churches.

Many people are surprised by the Truth that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1st Timothy 3:15)! Let us pray the words of our Lord Jesus: There will be ONE FLOCK and ONE SHEPHERD (John 10:16). Archbishop Fulton Sheen said: “There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Roman Catholic Church; there are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church

I just want to point out…. “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, ” 2 Timothy 3;16.

Jesus said that one of the reasons that the Sadducees were in error concerning the resurrection is because they did not know the Scriptures……..Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? Mark 12:24

Over 60 verses in the bible you will find Jesus saying, ” it is written” pointing to scripture and to support the teachings

Nowhere in Scripture does Jesus or any of the apostles appeal to the Jewish traditions. Jesus and the apostles quote from, or allude to the Old Testament hundreds of time. The Pharisees accused Jesus and the apostles of “breaking the traditions…….
The pharisees said… “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.” Matthew 15:2
Jesus rebukes them, He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?
Matthew 15:3

And in vain they worship Me,

Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”
Matthew 15:9

Finally,
“To the teaching and to the testimony! If they will not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn. ”

yes one can not find a single passage or verse that says scripture ALONE but, at the same time repeatedly, the Old Testament writers, Jesus, and the apostles, turn to the Scriptures as their measuring stick, and commend the same to any and all that would follow them.

Had to interject here.
You state that Jesus and the Apostles ONLY quoted Scripture.
If that is true, and you did not lie, then please tell me where in the Old Testament we can find these references:

1) The chair of Moses (Matthew 23:2)
2) The prophecy of Christ being a Nazarene (Matthew 2:23)
3) “Jannes and Jambres” (2 Timothy 3:8)
4) A rock that followed the Israelites in the desert (1 Corinthians 10:4)
5) St. Michael’s quarrel over Moses’ body (Jude 1:9)

If you can find me OT passages for each of these, I will convert to whatever denomination you want me to.
If not, you MUST admit that Jesus, St. Paul, and St. Jude accepted the authority and validity of Sacred Tradition (not the traditions of men).

And I’ll interject here. Of your five examples, only one (the first) could even be related to a tradition. And, it’s not, if it was, then why do Catholics only provide “papal lineage” from Peter and not Moses? The rest of your 4 are prophecy or history, and in these examples, they would not be related to ‘sacred tradition’.

Dear Dana,
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I agree with all the scripture quoted above!!!

The Catholic Church and all Catholics revere Sacred Scripture as the infallible word of God. What I am just trying to make Protestants aware of, is that their doctrine of Sola Scriptura is not found or supported by any Scripture. And yet they are constantly demanding that Catholics support everything they believe with scripture. This is the pot calling the kettle black.

All Christians follow and wish to obey Scripture. Please reread your response. You seem to take it for granted that Catholics ignore scripture. We don’t. We cover the whole Bible every three years in our liturgy. But so many Protestants, and I used to be one of them, assume that just because the Catholic Church does not kowtow to Protestant interpretations of Scripture, that this must mean Catholics disregard scripture. Nothing could be further from the truth. Despite all the thousands of Protestant denominations, directly counter to Jesus’ desire that we all be one, Protestants are in denial that scriptures need to be interpreted. It is a myth that scripture interprets scripture. Protestants know that the different denominations are usually due to different interpretations of scripture and yet refuse to believe that the Catholic Church has an interpretation that differs. It is kind of weird. BTW, even if the Catholic Church wanted to kowtow to a Protestant interpretation of scripture, which denomination should it choose????
It is just so much better to stick with what we have always and everywhere believed.

Protestants attempt to interpret scripture, unhinged from 2000 years of Christianity, and use a doctrine of Scripture alone, invented by Martin Luther, a mere 500 years ago, to try to prove that the Catholic Faith and practice are heretical and/or contradict scripture. They think they are simply adhering to scripture when, in fact, they adhering to their own or another teacher’s private interpretation of Scripture.

We uphold Scripture just as much as Protestants. We just uphold the historical interpretation of Scripture. The Catholic Church and our beliefs and doctrine have been the same since the founding of our Church by Jesus Christ. Why should we change our doctrine just because a man in the 1500’s decided we should?

As I have said many times before, The Catholic Faith does not contradict anything in Scripture; it merely contradicts Protestant interpretation of scripture.

A random thought, I don’t know the Bible that well yet as I am new to my relationship with our Lord, but even if the Bible doesn’t say anything about ‘sola scriptura,’ (even tho it was actually introduced by Augustine in the 5th century) it is safe to follow the scriptures where it is a lot less safe to follow the scriptures + something else… (Hence Mormonism & a multitude of other cults). And doesn’t Paul talk about not changing the Gospel and what Jesus teaches i think in galations? And I think the Bible also has a verse about not adding to or taking from the Bible (in deuteronomy, proverbs & in revelations/apocolype). Also I think there is a line about not putting faith in man (aka the Pope)(mentioned in a few Psalms), or calling anyone father on earth (also the pope – literally & figuratively)(Mt. 23:9). And I’m sure there is a place in Acts (17:10) where they are teaching and the Bereans send them away so they can search the scriptures to verify what was being taught and the connotations given in those scriptures are very positive of the Bereans for doing their research. So if they hadn’t found it in scriptures, they wouldn’t have believed.

Also, I’ve read that the beginnings of praying to Mary started with Constantine. They were trying to convert pagans but it was their tradition to have both a male & female and so, to appease the Pagans and successfully convert them, they introduced the veneration of Mary. It wasn’t until 431 AD that that became an official doctrine of the ‘church’. Another thought, catholicism became very political with the conversion of Rome and we all know how politics/politicians can be.. But I guess no one here is denying the corruption of the church (I hope not anyway).

I feel like if it’s not biblical, then I can’t trust it. I know I can trust and rely on the Bible and if anyone tells me to do otherwise then they may be laying a heavier burden on me than what Jesus intended. In 2 Th 2:15, it says by oral tradition OR by the epistles. And nowadays, I’d rather trust what is written before I trust any person’s mouth. Also 1 Corinthians 15:1-3, talking about how it is by through the word of the Gospel that we will be saved.

I’ve been doing a lot of research into protestantism & catholicism and catholicism does not make any biblical sense. For my reasons previously mentioned, but also since it didn’t officially start until 312AD and the reason they called it catholic was because that word meant universal– it was for everyone, jew or gentile. So I rely on the Bible to figure out what the church was really like during those 312 years before ‘catholicism’ and I speculate it looked a lot like ‘protestantism.’

St. Augustine did not introduce Sola Scriptura. If you think he did could you provide actual evidence for this asertion?

Well, of course it is safer to follow the Scriptures plus the Pearl of Great Price or any other recent New Gospel invented by a man. But that is not what the Catholic Church does. Our beliefs date back to the first century. Sola Scriptura dates back only 500 years to a man Martin Luther. I prefer historic Christianity to a new comer.

The Catholic Church has not added to Scripture. The Catholic Church canonized what is now sacred scripture at around 400 AD. Of course we should not change the Gospel. If you think the Catholic Church has, then you need to state your case not just make a vague accusation, that is slander. Regarding, Call no man Father please see my post—>Scripture vs. the Catholic Church: Call No Man Father.

The Bereans were commended for searching the Scriptures to see if the prophecies were true regarding the Messiah. Searching the Scriptures is a good thing. You are jumping to a conclusion that is not warranted by the text. They searched the prophecies about Messiah to see if what the apostle said was true about how Jesus fulfilled the prophecies and they could accept his word. I would tell you the same thing. Search the Scriptures to see if there is anything that the Catholic Church teaches that contradicts them. But, you will have to step away from Protestant bias and Protestant interpretations and give a fair hearing to the way the Catholic Church interprets scripture.

Asking for the intercession of the Saints did not start with Constantine. That is a lie. The Catholic Church is not corrupt. It is the Church founded by Jesus and He promised that even the Gates of Hell would not overcome it. However, there are corrupt Catholics. There are sinful Catholics. We do not deny this. Satan is targeting the Catholic Church as his greatest enemy. So, he has some victories. But he will never defeat the Church.

You said,

In 2 Th 2:15, it says by oral tradition OR by the epistles. And nowadays, I’d rather trust what is written before I trust any person’s mouth.

So, here you even reject the scripture that you claim to trust. By what authority do you reject Scripture? Do you believe you are infallible? Very interesting. We accept all Scriptures and the Catholic faith makes sense of all of them. We do not have to reject certain scriptures that don’t “fit” our theology.

The Catholic Church did not start in 312 AD. That is another Protestant lie. Jesus founded the Catholic Church 2000 years ago. It was called the Catholic Church centuries before that date as well:

Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church” (To the Smyrnaeans 8:2). A.D. 107, St. Ignatius of Antioch

This Sola Sciptura thing really doesn’t make any sense to even argue about. All it means is that we should trust what the scripture says about life and nothing else. Why wouldn’t you trust scripture alone. The bible is God breathed, and sharper than any two-edged sword. (2 Tim 3:16, Hebrews 4:12) There is and will never be a book like the bible, ever. It is improbable to think that so many different authors, in different places, and in different time periods composed the Bible, yet it all seems as if it is one continuous story or account. That is because their is only one author of the bible and that is the Holy Spirit, who was in all of the men who wrote the books of the bible. God miraculously put His word together and maintained it for all of these years so we can be so blessed to obtain it in this day and age. Why would you ever trust anything besides this book. God gives us all we need to know in this book. Do you trust any man for your salvation or any of your own works, or do you trust in Jesus Christ alone as the one who can save you? Why would you trust anything man says about God or salvation when you can trust in the infallible word of God? Hmmmm God or man? I don’t know for me it’s a pretty easy choice I will take the holy, perfect, all-knowing, all -powerful living eternal God over evil, corruptible, imperfect man ANY day of the week. Who cares about the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, it’s not at all about Protestant vs Catholic, it’s about the truth versus a lie. I will trust in Jesus Christ alone for my justification and salvation. I will trust Jesus Christ alone that when I die and stand before God one day that Jesus will be there to tell the Father, I’ve paid for Him. I will never rely on my own works, or any other infallible, sinful, imperfect human. And there is only one person who ever lived who was perfect and that is Jesus Christ, end of story. Scripture makes that perfectly clear. None of the prophets, Moses, Paul, Peter, or anyone who wrote the bible was ever sinless, because scripture clearly points out their sin, and shows that they were not sinless. And when Mary rejoices in God HER savior (Luke 1 :47) i think that makes it pretty clear that she obviously Needed a Savior. She is no different than anyone else in that respect, and if you want to disagree with God fine have fun dealing with that one when you have to give an account to God Almighty.

Maybe you should be more like the Bareans and search scripture about what you believe and practice. Your works have nothing to do with your salvation or right standing before God, only your faith, through God’s grace in Jesus Christ does. (Ephesians 2:8). And since I’m sure you’re going to bring up James 2, let me know just explain that to you as well. When you believe on Jesus and truly accept Him as your Lord and Savior, you are born again and you start a new life in Christ. Out of this new faith, where you are filled by the Holy Spirit will come an outpouring of good works. Works are evidence of your faith and that’s all that James is saying, since clearly Isaiah 64:6 says differently about our manufactured works.

And the CAtholic church did start in the year 300 A.D. when emperor Constantine essentially put Christianity and paganism together to make everyone happy and bam you have Catholicism, you can look that one up yourself. I don’t know about you but i want nothing to do with paganism, because if i did i would once again be scared for my own soul.

I will take the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church over any book. Only by trusting the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church can I know what is and is not Scripture, for She made the infallible ruling decreeing the canon of Scripture. Whoever rejects the Catholic Church has only man’s word on what is and is not Scripture. Worthless, then, is it to tell people to trust only God’s Word if they cannot identify it.

“You shall not make for yourself a CARVED IMAGE, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not BOW DOWN to them or SERVE them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.”
-Exodus 20: 4-6

Look at your Churches… There’s a lot of statue of Saints, Mary etc. that almost all of Catholics kneel upon it and even worship it like a God…. =P

What about the feast !! Carrying statues of saint statues down blocks!! Ex st Anthony … Wait for this guys…. If god only judges people on who goes to heaven or hell than we as humans think these men gO to heaven or purgatory or whatever than when we say pray for us we might people asking someone to pray for us who is going strait to hell!! Just cuz the pope said he is a saint but behind doors all his dirt could of been swept under the rug? Political system ? Can’t mix politics and religon

Okay. You have pope statue in one corner of the church a Mary statue in the other and cross on the other .., I skipp over two statues n light a candle to mary statue and bow down. Why did I pick that section the church cuz I felt Mary’s presence? No I picked that section because the cement object was there!! So I like the Mary statue better than popes n the cross statue .. I’m not worshipping the cement on the object but bowing down praying to Mary over the other statues??? People wake its worship !!! U would have never gone there to prey if that cement object wasn’t there!!!! That drew u to that part of the room !!!I feel in my heart we can feed on Christ flesh spiritually and eat his bread by fasting and eating him only in remberence..I pray over my food god nows my heart. U bowed down to a statue!!! Intent or non intent u stilll did it!!!

Dear Tommy,
No Saint is declared a Saint by the Church without a thorough investigation into their life. And even that is not enough. God must grant two scientifically investigated and proven miracles (not Catholic only scientists) to a person who asked for the intercession of the saint after their bodily death. It is not political in the least.

It is very uncharitable to accuse a Catholic of worshipping a statue by merely looking at them.

1 Samuel 16:7… for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”

God knows our hearts. I don’t mean to be rude, but you do not know the heart of a man by just looking at him.

Luke 6:37“ Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.

John 7:24Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

John 7:51“ Our Law does not judge a man unless it first hears from him and knows what he is doing,

John 8:15You judge according to the flesh;
1 Peter 2:23..and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously;

Spencer once again please clarify as I believe you are talking here about Numbers chapter 21 :4-9. God is in no way here allowing ritual use of statues. You can directly see the parallel here between the fall of man and Jesus Christ. This people have sinned against God by complaining yet again and wanting to go back into slavery in Egypt. God sends serpents to bite and kill them for their sin, but as they repent God tells Moses to put a bronze serpent on a pole and whoever looks to it shall live. Whoever looks to Jesus Christ shall live. Whoever realizes they are sinful and need a savior all you need to do is recognize what Jesus did for you on the cross and your burden is lifted your sins are forgiven and you can be born again start a new life in Jesus Christ. We as sinful humans cannot go to God alone, but because of Jesus we can boldly go to the throne of grace. (Hebrews 4:16) Jesus made the way to God for us not anyone else. Back to your reference, nowhere in this scripture can you justify your response of ritual use of statues for 2 reasons. 1 reason is that it contradicts what the rest of the bible states on idol worshiping. 2, this scripture is clearly a foreshadowing of Jesus and His work on the cross that takes away our sin. God foreshadows Jesus many times in the old testament. Please don’t try to take one scripture and take it out of context to make it agree with a point you are trying to make.

So according to your interpretation, the bronze Serpent statue is actually a symbol of our Lord Jesus Christ? A serpent statue? But you’re against the use of statues in the first place. You are only making references to the NT, not within the context.
Yes, these people confessed and Moses made that statue as permitted by God. According to your interpretation, people are literally bitten by the snakes and it suddenly becomes symbolical that Moses made the serpent statue; in which everyone should look at the serpent – like how we should look at Christ? In the OT, was Christ even known to them? A saviour was not even born then, they only predicted his coming. They believed God, that’s why God allowed the making of the serpent statue. It wasn’t offensive to him.

Catholics also made statues or icons that depict scenes of Christ’s passion like stations of the Cross & the crucifix, etc. These are used for rites, like in the case of the serpents plague, by triggering our thoughts to look upon the almightiness of the Christ, son of the Living God. (what you mentioned) We certainly do not worship them as Gods, which is the main idea of the sin of idolatry. It is the intentions of making these statues there are considered as sins.

Also, Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to also recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the examplary lives of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many of the Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate and honour certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.

It’s not a symbol of Jesus, It is symbolic of how Jesus would years later be hung on a tree for our sin and iniquity, and how people who look to Him on that cross would live, would be saved. I was in no way comparing Jesus to a serpent (Satan) So what if Jesus wasn’t born then plenty of times in the old testament God foreshadows Jesus coming and many times Jesus coming was prophesied. Are you saying Jesus can only really be mentioned in the New Testament? That’s completely untrue. Just because He wasn’t born doesn’t mean a thing. God knew from the foundation of the Earth that He was going to send Jesus to Earth to pay for our sins. Look at John 3:14 if you don’t believe my interpretation.

God doesn’t want us to look to any statues or any man made images though. He makes that very clear in His word. You don’t need to make any kinds of drawings and images to draw you closer to God, it’s just not what God wants and it’s not necessary. I am not Protestant I am non denominational. There are no pictures or statues or anything of the sort in the church i attend and that’s the way it should be we should be focusing on Jesus and worshiping Him in Spirit and in Truth, and no image or drawing is needed for that, because then before you know it you are just looking to that picture or statue. Maybe you don’t do that like you are saying but they are plenty of other Catholics and Protestants who I know do and it is wrong and not what God wants. All God wants is a relationship with you. He wants you to be His child by accepting His Son Jesus and the ultimate sacrifice He made. He wants us to read His word and learn about Him so we can know how to live and what we should and shouldn’t do as children of God. When we accept Jesus as Lord and Savior we our sealed with The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is our down payment of salvation. He lives in us and guides us on how we should live as well, convicts us of our sin, guides us as to what we should be doing. I know that since i came to know the Lord I have had no desire to look ti any images or statues because that’s not what God wants from you and He states it clearly in His word.

Yes he is already there in the OT, but is he mentioned as Jesus Christ in the OT?

Btw, the commandment of God not to make any statues… was to prevent people from worshipping and adoring statues as Gods in the OT. This is because they have not seen God personally and in OT times, paganism was rampant and people could easily worship an animal to be God. This is extremely offensive to God, as we Catholics also know it. That’s why God prevented man from carving images of them. Besides, if making of statues is extremely forbidden; why did God allowed Moses to make one in the first place? He broke his own commandment?
But, except for one late period, we notice that the commandment was never understood as an absolute and universal prohibition of any kind of image. Throughout the Old Testament there are instances of representations of living things, not in any way worshipped, but used lawfully, even ordered by the law as ornaments of the tabernacle and temple. The many cases of idolatry and various deflections from the Law which the prophets denounce are not, of course, cases in point. It is the statues made and used with the full approval of the authorities which show that the words, “Thou shalt not make to thyself any graven image”, were not understood absolutely and literally. It may be that the Hebrew translated “graven image” had a technical sense that meant more than a statue, and included the idea of “idol”; though this does not explain the difficulty of the next phrase. In any case it is certain that there were “likenesses of that which is in the sky above and on earth below and in the waters” in the orthodox Jewish cult. Whatever one may understand the mysterious ephod and theraphim to have been, there was the brazen serpent (Numbers 21:9), not destroyed till Ezechias did so (2 Kings 18:4), there were carved and moulded garlands of fruit and flowers and trees (Numbers 8:4; 1 Kings 6:18; 7:36); the king’s throne rested on carved lions (1 Kings 10:19-20), Iions and bulls supported the basins in the temple (1 Kings 7:25, 29). Especially there are the cherubim, great carved figures of beasts (Ezekiel 1:5; 10:20, where they are called beasts), that stood over the ark of the covenant (Exodus 25:18-22; 1 Kings 6:23-8; 8:6-7, etc.). But, except for the human heads of the cherubim (Ezekiel 41:19, Exodus 25:20, the references to them when combined seem to point irresistibly to some such figures as the Assyrian winged bulls with human heads), we read nothing of statues of men in the lawful cult of the Old Testament. In this point at least the Jew seems to have understood the commandment to forbid the making of such statues, though even this is not clear in the earlier periods. The ephod was certainly once a statue of human form (Judges 8:27; 17:5; 1 Samuel 19:13, etc.), and what were the theraphim (Judges 17:5)? Both were used in orthodox worship.

Btw, what makes you think your non-denominational church is right? Led by the Holy spirit like all the other Protestant churches do? What happened to them? Why diverse from one another so much? 3 spirits are mentioned in the bible. God, Man & Evil. Spirit of God is of unity and truth, not disparity and confusion. So what is possible spirit guiding them?

I have come to the conclusion that arguing isn’t going to get us anywhere at all. I just want to ask you if you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Thats what its all about, if you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior by His grace through faith and have been born again. Thats how you inherit eternal life by grace through faith and it is not of ourselves lest any man should boast. This is myself included, I will never be able to stand in front of a perfect holy God no matter what I do. I solely trust in Jesus and His work on the cross. His last words before He yielded His Spirit were “It is finished.” That’s good enough for me I trust in Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection alone and I hope all of you do too. Thank you Jesus for your amazing grace. Amen and God bless

Sorry, I don’t call that an argument. Instead, I call it Clarification.
Oh yes mike,I do. Thank you for asking. I personally pray to him everyday, asking God to guide in my everyday life. More I should ask you, have you been trusting the right Spirit within you? Since there are 3 spirits influencing you, I pray that you can discern correctly with God’s gift of divine grace. Do not rely on your own interpretations but on the Church.

Dear Mike,
I don’t think you looked at this post. If you click on it and read it you will see that God instructed Moses to include images of things in Heaven and on Earth in the Temple. Even in the Holy of Holies.

Protestantism is not a denomination. It is all Christians who Protest the Catholic Church….. Such at Luther, Calvin, etc. and who broke away from the Catholic Church and started their own “churches”. And Protestants today are still protesting the Catholic Church. That is why they are called Protest-ants.

go and continue worshiping your godly images and let’s see how far you will go…

“But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, IDOL WORSHIPERS, and all liars–their fate is in the FIERY LAKE OF BURNING SULFUR. This is the SECOND DEATH.”
Revelation 21:8

Do unto others what you wish done unto you! So you cast the first stone so you as well are destined for Hell. We have statues representing Heaven and so do the Jews in their Temple because God commanded to build such for Religious purposes. Read the building of the First Temple in Jerusalem under Solomon and you will see. Jesus didn’t seek to end the Jewish Covenant he came to fulfill it. You would know nothing of God, Jesus or anything if the Catholic Martyrs hadn’t kept the Faith alive and converted the Romans. What you do to the least of my brothers you do to me so you condemn do you and judge when you aren’t perfect? You aren’t my judge by Jesus is. So Sister in Christ I forgive you because you know not what you are doing! Peace be with you.

Mary though human she was but without sin. This is to show the perfection of God. Mary was perfectly prepared even before she was born. she did not share out of the original sin in as much as she has been prepared to be the mother of God. Send your comment to johnmankind87@gmail.com for further clarification.

Do we believe in the Scripture? If yes, then there is no false teaching contained in the scripture. Very clear it is that the Gospels are the written evidences of some of the event that took place during Jesus’ time. The Bible even says that not all that happened were recorded. It should also be brought to our awareness that Gospel according to Mark affirms that the Gospel contains the transmitted tradition and event that took place during Jesus’ time. Though the scripture may not categorically state it that Blessed Virgin Mary is sinless but the Catholic teaching affirms it. There should be no confusion about it because the Bible does not contained all that happened. It is also an indubitable fact that the church is older that the Bible. If this is the case then, Both the bible and the church’s tradition are responsible for the guiding of the Church. If there is any contrary opinion please do well to post your reply to johnmankind87@gmail.com

It absolutely IS mentioned in the Bible about adding to or taking away from scripture. The Catholic church is also mentioned as the Whore that will undergo great punishment for it’s blasphemy and crimes against our Father. The warning was very specific and direct and was placed towards the very end of the entire bible where it would be most noticeable to anyone reading it. The warning is directly from Jesus the Christ himself … Revelation 22:18,19.

18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things,
God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from
the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

This warning covers both the prophesy and the words thereof of the Revelation as well as all prophesy and any of the words thereof written in the bible as a whole.

Dear Ralph,
The Bible never mentions that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon. That is a Protestant Anti-catholic interpretation. Nothing in the passage demands that the Whore of Babylon be understood to be the Catholic Church. It is true that Revelation says what you quoted. But, you have a very big problem with trying to interpret this wording as a condemnation of the Catholic Church since we have also in Deuteronomy:

Deuteronomy 4
4 “And now, O Israel, give heed to the statutes and the ordinances which I teach you, and do them; that you may live, and go in and take possession of the land which the Lord, the God of your fathers, gives you. 2 You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it; that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

If we interpret this very similar passage the way you are interpreting the Rev. passage then that would make Revelation illegitimate as well as every book after Deuteronomy was written and that would include the New Testament as well. Besides, the Revelation passage is not referring to the whole Bible but only to the book of “prophecy”….the book of Revelation. Therefore, we reject your particular interpretation.

Holy cow! While I certainly appreciate the discussion and the desire to learn what is true and correct, some of these replies strike me as amazingly impolite and unChristian in attitude and tone. ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’

BHFU-Jesus did certainly not found the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is apostate, and is nothing even close to who Jesus was. Mary was sinful just like all other created man. Jesus clearly was the only ‘sinless’ being.
Peter was NOT the first Pope. That’s another huge Catholic lie to try to authenticate their lying pagan establishment. The whore of Babylon. The pope, the “man of sin.” NO pope was ever “infallible” but rather, liars, vile, wretched, wolves in sheeps clothing, persecuting millions of true followers of God. Parading around on little hand carried carts like the pagans of old. Feeding the lie to millions that they have the power to forgive sin!!! No man can forgive sin. Only Jesus. Never would God have given the power to forgive sin to such corrupt men. You Catholics don’t really believe in God, only your idol relics. If you did you would tremble at the hell fire you will all be facing for leading millions down the path of destruction!!! And the BIble IS the true word of God (how dare you try to discredit it) long before you tried to corrupt the teachings of Jesus with you own dasterdly teachings. How blasphemous you are and bold with no shame for your fallacies and wretchedness!! Utterly amazing at how many people fall for your blasphemous unscriptural lies. Shameful your lavish cathedrals, wealth, gold, storehouses of art and stollen money from marytered men, women and children for your centuries of lives of luxury while millions are starving. You indulge yourselves on your blood money. Your cathedrals will burn, your wealth will vanish in a moment, your haughtyness will be struck down and the man of sin will be revealed to every soul, living and risen, by the wrath of Gods Justice! Woe unto you who work iniquity!!! The Babylon (this wicked Catholic system) of Revelation will fall and burn. Gods calls “come out of her my people!” Babylon will be destroyed and all you wicked men, “and will be no more forever.”