Dear DUers,I thought long and hard about this post- left the house for a while this evening to take time to contemplate whether or not to do so.

I do NOT want to start a debate about Christianity.I am a Christian, and as a Christian, I follow the Bibleas a "road map for living" here in this world.

I am NOT trying to convert anyone, and I would hope thatmy fellow Duers would know that- however, can I tell youthat I must share the following with you- if you want to make fun of me, that is okay- a Christian without a senseof humor is a dreary sort at best. I understand completely.There was a time in my life that I would have done the same.

I believe that God works in mysterious ways, to say the least, and in my study of other religions, I have come to the sound conviction that God speaks the same message to all of us. Through all sorts of books of truth. My particularbook is the Bible, but I have found that He is giving the same message to people who read other books of faith-WHO in the HELL are we to think that we understand HOWGod works his plan?Having said that- let me explain that as a Christian, I trust in a process known as 'santification.' To put itsimply, rather than lean on MY understanding, I ask for guidance from the Holy Spirit. I am SO far from perfect, as those of you who know me can attest, but the joyI have in living is the knowledge that me imperfectionsare exactly why Christ could reach me. The first thing any real Christian will admit to you is the fact thatwe are so IMPERFECT- and the serenity of living as a fucked up human is in the fact that Jesus loves us all the more for it, and when we ask, we receive help.(Not always in the way we think it should come...God DOES have a wonderful zen sense of humor, I swear.)I have been asking in earnest ever since the "boat"and Isaiah 61 quote, which when I heard it, KNEW it was a signal that something was TERRIBLY wrong.Any hoo-With all that said, from my heart, I preface the following with this:It is possible for Truth to manifest in many ways-I have read MANY books that contain the Truth.Please keep an open mind to what I am want to sharewith you, especially in the light of recent events.It is my sincere belief that we are living in a timethat regardless of whether or not you believe in Godor not, I beg you to believe in goodness and light, in what ever form you may find it.BHN

"He who has an ear, let him hear" Rev 13

Rev 13:5"The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words andblasphemies and to exercise his authority forforty-two months."Rev 13:6He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and toslander his name and dwelling place and those wholive in heaven."Rev 13 "He was given power to make war against the saintsand to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.Rev 13:8"All inhabitants of the earth shall worship the beast-all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slainform the creation of the world."Rev 13 "He who has an ear, let him hear."

a colon and a seven and a colon and a 9 make smilies. Put a space in between.

On the content of your post, * is the closest the world has ever come to the Anti-Christ, in my opinion, and I wish he would be limited to 42 months only. that would mean July is the end for him -- but it won't be. Even if impeachment proceedings started today, he wouldn't be removed by July.

Besides, I'm not sure that the current veep would be any better -- maybe even worse.

Sure, he's bad, but he has a considerable bit to go to be in the same league as Mao, Fidel, Stalin, or even Pol Pot. And notice that I have not even mentioned Hitler. Then there is Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, Tamerlane. Plus, Saddam has still beaten him.

This Bush =anti-Christ BS just makes us look ridiculous, and, I think, will cost us votes in November. There are plenty of good, sound reasons to oppose *, we don't have to go off the deep-end.

Bush hasn't had the chance to really excercise his power in the way Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot did, and I think if he wins in November then he WILL be America's Hitler. That is a good enough reason to fight to beat him.

for Kerry in November, but I consider that statement ridiculous. there is still congress and the supreme court. OK, The repukes control both, but as the successful filibustering of *'s court nominees shows, we are not completely powerless. Furthermore, the military probably would not obey any orders to massacre their fellow citizens. Plus, unlike Germany in Hitler's day, the American people are still privately well armed. Also, jsut for curiosity's sake, who is it that are going into the concentration camps, gas chambers, and ovens. the Jews seem out as shown by *'s support of Israel. He also seem to have no real animus towards Hispanics and blacks. Of course, it must be the gays. After all, his explicit rejection of gay marriage shows that what he really wants is to kill them all!! That must be it!. Oh, and maybe the Arabs. But that would have been easier just after 9/11 than now.

I repeat, there are plenty of good reasons to oppose *, i.e., conduct of war, tax policies, economy, immigration, etc, etc, etc, to oppose * from both the left AND THE RIGHT. So why weaken our case with truly fantastic notions like * = Hitler or * = anti-Christ? It just irritates me, that's all. It seems a waste of energy, intellect, and emotion that we could use more wisely. But hey, if it helps you get through the regime.

I think it's true that given time (another term) Bushco will implement whatever it takes to consolidate their power into the forseeable future. The image I keep getting is that of the wicked witch in Wizard of Oz, who, after capturing Dorothy, says about getting the ruby slippers, "These things take tiiime."

Anyone with a functioning brain who watched that so-called press conference last week knows that Bush is operating at the emotional level of a nine year old. Honestly, I was at a house party last fall, viewing Moveon's "Uncovered". One woman said about Bush, "But he's 15 (years old)." I think she was being charitable. More like 9, IMO.

This is serious! The people in power now will stop at nothing. They run the gamut; stupid, nuts, sadistic, sociopathic, emotionally immature, and criminally insane.

Gawd! What does it take? Should we wait until all the "undesirables" start being loaded into trucks before we react?

And, BTW, I don't give a fat rat's ass what the Repukes think, as they seldom do.

By "Anti-Christ," I do not mean "really awful horrible despicable person." Obviously, Hitler and Pol Pot and others were worse in many ways.

What I mean is "fitting the prophecies outlined in the Bible that will be fulfilled in the person the scriptures call the 'Anti-Christ'."

No, he doesn't fit them neatly and clearly, so I don't think he's it.

However, the most telling prophecy about the AC -- the one most prophecy scholars consider the deal-breaker, for lack of a better term, is that he will make a treaty promising Israel protection (and later break it).

I think that * is certainly capable of making such a treaty and breaking it. Also, he fits the war-mongering and deception in the pursuit of war-mongering aspects of prophecy better than anyone else I've ever looked at through that lens.

By "Anti-Christ," I do not mean "really awful horrible despicable person." Obviously, Hitler and Pol Pot and others were worse in many ways.What I mean is "fitting the prophecies outlined in the Bible that will be fulfilled in the person the scriptures call the 'Anti-Christ'."No, he doesn't fit them neatly and clearly, so I don't think he's it.However, the most telling prophecy about the AC -- the one most prophecy scholars consider the deal-breaker, for lack of a better term, is that he will make a treaty promising Israel protection (and later break it). I think that * is certainly capable of making such a treaty and breaking it. Also, he fits the war-mongering and deception in the pursuit of war-mongering aspects of prophecy better than anyone else I've ever looked at through that lens.

exactly what 'anti-Christ' means. And he will be worse than Hitler. And whatever you think of *, and I don't think much of him,z perhaps you should wait until he does these things. Everybody is capable of, say, murder, given the right circumstances. We are not murderers until we kill someone.

Revelation is not intended as a prediction of the future. Revelation was written as a letter to seven churches facing Roman persecution, encouraging them to stand fast and keep the faith.

This work is typical of much apocalyptic literature that circulated for quite a long time. You see apocalyptic hints in the Older Testament book of Daniel, in the gospel of Mark, in other places in the Hebrew and Christian scriptures, as well as in other non-scriptural sources of the time. "Apocalyptic" just means "revelatory." Some of the typical marks of apocalyptic are the extreme symbolism, which served as a kind of code to a people living under oppression.

The Revelation of John was intended to give hope to a people struggling under Roman persecution. That's it. It was not meant to be used as a prediction of the end of the world. That doesn't mean that we can't find in it something that is instructive to us, but I do believe it means we don't look at it as a road map to some kind of final battle to consummate history.

Is the verse spoken by Jesus to the Church of Nazarethin Luke 4 to confirm he is the one referred to in OT prophecy-Bush quoted it from the boat the day he decided to dress upand declare the mission accomplished.Talk about BLASPHEMY!BHN

I saw some other reference to the 4 horsemen of the Apocolypse on a Tshirt on the Internet. It had the faces of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and someone else. Charming group.

I think my interest and/or belief in these comparisons is kind of limited to what I would take from any other piece of literature. I mean, face it, if Bush really IS the Beast, we're screwed and there's nothing anyone can do.

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, because the LORD has anointed me to bring good tidings to the afflicted; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound; Isa 61:2 to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn; Isa 61:3 to grant to those who mourn in Zion-- to give them a garland instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, the mantle of praise instead of a faint spirit; that they may be called oaks of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he may be glorified. Isa 61:4 They shall build up the ancient ruins, they shall raise up the former devastations; they shall repair the ruined cities, the devastations of many generations.

Goes on and on as such....

To add to the mix, consider also that the book of Isaiah deals mainly with the return of the Israelites from captivity and exile in Babylon, a city in ancient mesopotamia, the part of the globe which we in the modern era refer to as Iraq.

42 months does not necessarily mean 42 monthsas we think of it-Personally, I think we will see a second term of the shrub,and perhaps a third.What I am watching for is the SECOND beast.That is when the REAL trouble starts.BHN

EVERYTIME I post scripture those "smilie things' come up-I went through this a few weeks ago-Camero helped me learn HTML, but I SWEARI did not put them there tonight!!!It happened earlier today too- I was posting 1John: 4 about testing the spirits-Some had asked if Georgie was Christian or not-1 John 4 gives guidance on that...See? God does have a sense of humor!BHN

Reply to this message and you'll see a link above the message editor named "Smilies lookup table". Click it and you'll see a table of how to make smilies. You'll see that if you type a colon and a seven, it'll make , and ditto for a few other symbols you inadvertently made.

which I guess is part of goodness but deserves a special mention, I think.

Not blind hope, stop-working-and-wait hope..but quiet strength in your gut that keeps you moving and striving; and a gentle breeze lifting that WEIGHT off your shoulders when the state of the world is getting to you.

I know many devout Christians who are very much into the bible, but not too many who seem as open minded as you. I've always wanted to ask this but was afraid of offending but I think you will take it in the spirit in which it is asked. So here's my question....Why do so many Christians (which I always thought of Christians a believers in Christ's message) quote from the old testament so much?It seems to me that much of the old testament is in direct contrast to many of Jesus' words and actions. I have a "born again" brother who can quote the bible front to back but he almost never quotes Jesus. Baffles me.

And certainly relevant to basis of the rising false x-tianity.The X-tians, in summary basically DENY the Grace of Jesusby constantly spouting OT LAW."The Sermon on the Mount" by Emmett Fox is a great readif you want to learn what Jesus taught.EXCELLENT read for people who do not necessarily want to join a church, but would like to study the teachingsof Jesus. I encourage you to check it out.I don't think any one can argue with Henri Nouwen's writingseither. Christian or not- Nouwen know how to communicatethe principles of goodness to all.

If you are baffled, it is no wonder. If he is a christian and not for me to judge, he should be living by Jesus's teachings not under th Old Law of the Old Testatment. The New testament is like an amendment to a law or a repeal of a law and the new one is in effect. The New Testament is like Current Events spiritually and the Old Testament is like History spiritually. Bush and co do the same thing...Wierds me out !

FAR be it from me to imply that I am the only one who knows ANYTHING!That was NOT my intention.What I tried to convey was the fact thatI believe in Jesus, I believe in the Bible, and time and again, I am led to certain passagesof Scripture that look awfully familiar when weighedagainst our current geo-political landscape.Because of this, I only ask that people look towardslight and goodness at this particular time in the historyof the world-It is my SINCERE belief that we are in the grips ofa SERIOUS confrontation between dark and light.Do I KNOW what is going to happen, certainly not!I never claimed that-Peace-BHN

...and it's a mystery to me, too. I can only take it in the spirit and historical context in which it was written, during the height of persecution of the Christians within Rome, and is a combination of dreams, hopes, and rage against Rome possibly fueled by lead-laced wine with a dash of ergot poisoning.

After all, getting all the inhabitants of the earth to recognize any one name is a tall order; getting them all to worship whatever that name is attached to is even more out of the question. This may be interesting writing. Anybody who takes it as literal prophecy is two hooks short of a coat rack.

"Earth" being the conciousness of the world, rather than spirituality.One of my best friends is Jewish, and we find commonground here- in that basing our lives in spiritual goodnesssometimes requires that we go against the ways of the"world."The same is true in the Buddhist practice of detachment.The "Lamb" is akin to that thinking and metaphor-The Lamb being a connection to God's ways versus the world- spirtuality vs materialism and worldliness.For the record- I know Jewish people who are FAR more Christian than people at my church.BHN

I'm a little concerned, not about your general religious beliefs, but don't you think you should really really be sure that you know George W. Bush is the antichrist before you accuse him of being so? And get really worried about it? A lot of people have made those kinds of accusations before - in the past it's been Henry Kissinger, Ronald Reagan (his full name, "Ronald Wilson Reagan", has six letters in each name), and I guess someone in that Focus on the Family organization said that Bill Clinton could be. I think you can believe and take something from the Book of Revelation - that there's a lot of evil in this world but you can stand steadfast in the face of it - without feeling you have to interpret it to literally speak to your present situation. A lot of people over about 2000 years have been wrong about who they think the antichrist is.

but I do strive to be christlike--- Emmett Fox was an eye opener on Jesus, I enjoyed it a lot and taught me a lot too on how to strive to stay in contact with a Higher Power. Today all day it has come down to one thing for me, cuz if it's Armageddon time we're all along for the ride-- My thought for the day

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.Where there is hatred, let me sow love;where there is injury,pardon;where there is doubt, faith;where there is despair, hope;where there is darkness, light;and where there is sadness, joy.

O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seekto be consoled as to console;to be understood as to understand;to be loved as to love.For it is in giving that we receive;it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life. Amen

I LOVE the book BE HERE NOW-Love the fellow ship, but had to leave-Too much hypocricy about where they came from.which was by the way- a Christian base.Faith without works is indeed, dead.(((HUGS)))BHN

The problem comes down to this: Democrats, liberals, and social progressives have simply not grasped how afraid, insecure and how deeply in despair the populace is. They keep speaking as if objective analysis and idealistic vision can win the day. What Bush and Rove, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz and Pearls, Abrams and Bolton, DeLay and Rice etc, have clearly understood is that truth is subjectivity. Unfortunately, the inner person of America today is a hollowed out consumer who lacks the will power, stamina and imagination to do anything more than be overwhelmed. Therefore, a politics of crisis, a politics of fear will keep us locked into a state of conformity.

As one who used to believe all this stuff, let me give you some honest sincere advice. I'm not ridiculing you, but really, you would be better off not believing in any of this. It's superstitious and frankly, absurd. We have enough problems on planet earth to worry about without making up imaginary ones.

The sooner we put away our ideas about a magical world where everything is up to the whim of a capricious god, we can get down to business and concentrate on real problems. Trust me, the longer you are away from the bible and christianity, the more absurd it is.

but it's not that I reject the validity (for lack of a better word) of these writings off hand, but because they can be a real distraction from the work at hand.Revelations is so abstract that I really don't feel many people have made much productive use of it. It is fascinating and sometimes it's fun to speculate. However people have used it in very destructive ways, take "Left Behind" for example.For a curious open minded person it can be intriguing, but for someone looking for solid answers to dealing with the problems we face in the world today I think it can be extremely dangerous.I admit I often wish it had never been written for that reason.

As for the teachings of Jesus, I have known Christian activists who have done remarkable good such as "Swords to Plow shares" or the people at the core of the movement to close the SOA. So I cannot judge Christians as a group. Any religion can be used to manipulate people.

...I understand Revelations is supposed to be a book of prophecy, but you are going to be more specific on the relevance of those verses you posted...how they fit into the current political situation (as I assume there is some political message here as this is a political board).

I want to say I very much appreciate your respect for the reader's own beliefs and your open mindedness. If you aren't careful you might start giving Christians a good name for a change. I am not at all unfamiliar with scripture having family members who are very into it. I am one who is content to focus on goodness and light and have a curiosity about the elements of all religions.I am a member of 'Christian' church and regularly honor the seasons with 'pagan' rituals. I am also a great lover of Buddhism and Native American teachings.

I've read Revelations from beginning to end many times. I have also studied the very remarkable Hopi prophecies. All I can is, first that I honor the great mystery that the universe is, and that I do not know the truth but can only observe and take in what I can. I can at least say that there is something going on that was foreseen in various ways.

We are obviously at some sort of crossroads in human history.It doesn't take a religious viewpoint to see this either, climate change, population growth etc. demonstrate this clearly.Personally though I get a gut feeling that there are forces working that cannot be seen and it seems to me that in some way Bush is unleashing some very negative energies that will effect all humanity for a good time to come.

The warmongering, hatred and near worship of violence as a problem solver has opened up some sort of dark doorway in the collective human psyche. It will not be easy to get back on the path of light because of this. So whatever he is, he has effected the future or our world in a very negative and powerful way.I hope that all people regardless of their 'religious' beliefs will resist these energies the best they can. I hope (and pray) that people resist the religious fundalmentalism that promotes wars, 'Holy' or outherwise, intolerance and hatred.

I, too, am Christian. Raised in the Southern Baptist Church, 1/2 of my adult years in liberal southern baptist churches, now a Methodist. I figured out a long time ago that I was never going to understand Revelations. No big deal. Its not important to my faith. BeHereNow, I deeply respect your opinion as one Christian to another. But I really wonder if any of us are meant to understand it.

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators

Important Notices: By participating on this discussion
board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules
page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the
opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent
the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.