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Interestingly enough you can meet various seminar attendees from the tradiional arts, the internal arts and internal coaches with any number of people and they have made little to no progress, Of course, this also applies to any number of famous teachers students doesn't it? I have met many, so has everyone here. Why are we talking about this? Most, hell even martial art newbies understand why that is. I mean does any one need to be told this? I mean..really? Budo has always required that the budoka puts in the work....many do not. Smart people might ask,why if someone already knows this, why they would use that same realization as a standard to repeatedly bash the work of others. Best defense is offense? Sort of makes you go hmmm...

So yup, the onus is on those attending to do the work and to wind their way through those teaching things and see who has a method that will work for you
My best advice is to go and feel but more importantly, ask if the one teaching has any long term students (not seminar attendees) who have real power and skill that people have actually met. That one qualifier can knock out even true experts. Some people are NEVER going to get it to any serious degree, no matter what... others, just can't teach!!

There is some serious three card monty being slung out there in budo land and this stuff is no different. The good news is that there are many people reading those who are doing the following; discounting real skill as false, real progress always as the wrong direction, those teaching (who have been tested by real experts) as liars, while tactfully suggesting that only they have good or pure answers...yet strangely they offer little if any real information, instead telling you, "to steal it" or to "figure it out on your own.".Budo people can be pretty sharp. More and more people are getting hip to the narrative.
I continue to suggest the best thing to do is to get out there and see for yourself. Meet as many people as you can claiming to teach this stuff..and also meet Japanese and Chinese experts supposedly doing this stuff and test yourself with them.
Good luck in your search
And wishing you the best
Dan

The good news is that there are many people reading those who are doing the following; discounting real skill as false, real progress always as the wrong direction, those teaching (who have been tested by real experts) as liars, while tactfully suggesting that only they have good or pure answers...yet strangely they offer little if any real information, instead telling you, "to steal it" or to "figure it out on your own.".Budo people can be pretty sharp. More and more people are getting hip to the narrative.

I couldn't agree with you more, Dan. In fact, I've been putting out explicit information even on this forum (much more on QiJin, as you know) for at least 6 years. In fact, if you look at the current threads discussing some of Ikeda Sensei's attempts to explain things and the thread on "collusion", you'll see even more explicit information. I'd like to encourage you to do the same, knowing that you're interested it getting things out there.

Even more recently applicable, I'd like to see who's been chasing this stuff for a few years and making demonstrable progress . . that kind of thing.

But thats my point. They're all over the map, just like any traditional budo training. They're only going to make progress with good information and actual work. I have met students of the IP coaches and many Aiki legends and of ICMA legends and they.....
are all over the map. They range and feel like anything from your average high school wrestler who NEVER let go of muscle... to people....well... making progress!
I just don't always assign their failure to the teacher (like some do and gossip about it in private). I think many time it's on the student. I have asked people right after I told them something and it's like it went right over their head. I have been in any number of seminars when I was learning where I was THEE ONLY one there with a notebook. People not getting it is a constant in budo...we all know that. So why is this any different at all? I don't think that will ever change
I think students are a better test (still not definitive, just better)., Ask if a teacher or IP coach has anyone they developed they can produce.
Cheers
Dan

But thats my point. They're all over the map, just like any traditional budo training. They're only going to make progress with good information and actual work. I have met students of the IP coaches and many Aiki legends and of ICMA legends and they.....
are all over the map. They range and feel like anything from your average high school wrestler who NEVER let go of muscle... to people....well... making progress!
I just don't always assign their failure to the teacher (like some do and gossip about it in private). I think many time it's on the student. I have asked people right after I told them something and it's like it went right over their head. I have been in any number of seminars when I was learning where I was THEE ONLY one there with a notebook. People not getting it is a constant in budo...we all know that. So why is this any different at all? I don't think that will ever change
I think students are a better test (still not definitive, just better)., Ask if a teacher or IP coach has anyone they developed they can produce.
Cheers
Dan

I absolutely think the student has to take the onus and responsibility for the progress they make - regardless of who they train with or are associated with. I think even as the "details" of how this stuff works gets fleshed out in Western terms, I think the pedagogy of how it's best transmitted will hopefully also become more clear AND then the requirements and talents that will make the best students.

+ 1
We are talking some seriously powerful people here, Tony, and your comments are quite obviously both uninformed and not very constructive.

As I am uninfomed myself most of the time, oh well....
But at least try to be constructive, for the sake of the discussion here.

I was going to say the same but in a different way.
Tony - I see from your web page you teach ...for free. You obviously love Aikido practice. As luck would have it there seems to be an upcoming UK seminar in the works. If I may be so bold, I would suggest you -try your level best- to get in and go meet Mr. Harden. I bet you ten quid that this is the most interesting and captivating thing you will have seen in Aikido...for a good long while, if not ever. Seems all you have to do is write a negative review (with a straight face, and sincerity) and you will get your money back. win-win.

I was going to say the same but in a different way.
Tony - I see from your web page you teach ...for free. You obviously love Aikido practice. As luck would have it there seems to be an upcoming UK seminar in the works. If I may be so bold, I would suggest you -try your level best- to get in and go meet Mr. Harden. I bet you ten quid that this is the most interesting and captivating thing you will have seen in Aikido...for a good long while, if not ever. Seems all you have to do is write a negative review (with a straight face, and sincerity) and you will get your money back. win-win.

Sunday evening sensei introduced some exercises to us that come from this Internal Power concept. I have to admit I found them rather fascinating. Like flexing muscles I had not really realized were there. The effect on uke was rather dramatic when you got it just right.....I'm looking forward to continuing the exploration.

Sunday evening sensei introduced some exercises to us that come from this Internal Power concept. I have to admit I found them rather fascinating. Like flexing muscles I had not really realized were there. The effect on uke was rather dramatic when you got it just right.....I'm looking forward to continuing the exploration.

If Garth hasn't already, I hope he gets a chance to see/feel what people like Mike, Dan, Ark are doing - as they are teaching IS things outside of martial art specific paradigms. Even going a step further and trying to get a feel of what the big dogs in Chinese systems such as Chen Xao Wang of Chen Taiji are doing. Get exposed to the talent pool that's out there. Mainstream aikido has a lot of work to do to get it back - but if there's any art that should have it ... aikido would be one.

Honestly guys don't you think I believe in it, can't do it??
To me it's all tricks and most cases, over collusion..... It's funny how those of you that have had serious training actually know exactly how to do it, through hard physical training and nothing else..... It is simple mechanics, I'm well aware of it, but the trouble is I cannot see what the fascination is......?????
I'm against the woo woo and ridiculous claims and the endless excuses not to train hard.....
Kenji Tomiki Shihan was able to do all of this kind of thing and never (rarely) demonstrated it..... It was in correct and proper training that one finds out how to do it, a strong inner core that can only be realised by hard training. No one taught me it, I just knew that I could do it....
So please save your money and put it to charity or something...

If Garth hasn't already, I hope he gets a chance to see/feel what people like Mike, Dan, Ark are doing - as they are teaching IS things outside of martial art specific paradigms. Even going a step further and trying to get a feel of what the big dogs in Chinese systems such as Chen Xao Wang of Chen Taiji are doing. Get exposed to the talent pool that's out there. Mainstream aikido has a lot of work to do to get it back - but if there's any art that should have it ... aikido would be one.

I think he did actually, just recently. Can't speak for him but I hear we are to expect some future visits with someone (Mark Murray?) who knows this stuff well.

I grew up wrestling and playing judo. Did aikido and karate in high school - a dabbling of kickboxing (really humorous kickboxing that proves that we all SUCK at some components of martial arts). Started back with aikido because I found an independent club that trained really hard and didn't like BS. Dabbled in traditional weapon systems.

Started back into boxing/grappling/MMA in 2005. Started getting interested in Internal Strength in 2007. Met Dan Harden that summer . . impressed enough that this is something "different" and also very, very worthwhile training that I started looking for other avenues to explore it. Met Mike Sigman in 2008. Still working on "this stuff" still getting together with other people interested in "this stuff". It's a long process - it's a different way to move.

Moved to a new location in the last year. Joined a MMA gym. Still working on "this stuff". Still making progress. Temporarily taking a break from the formal role playing side of martial arts that involves pajamas and lots of bowing.

This stuff is different. I hear lots of people say they "already do that" or that you "learn it through hard traning". This stuff is different. But I don't know that you're going to learn that for yourself if you've already convinced yourself you know it all already.

The thing is - I've always trained hard. To get anywhere with "this stuff" (beyond just talking about how awesome it is), you have to train harder than you would believe - ridiculous amounts of solo work and conditioning to transform your body. How powerful you are is based on how well your body is conditioned - simple as that. There's a skill component as well . . which is very mentally taxing . . after . .AFTER you've done a boatload of that work . .then you can realisticaly think about how you can apply it.

This is stuff is different. And it's bloody difficult. And time consuming.

But then - you show me any path/Way/Do/Tao that is worth a piss that isn't

I grew up wrestling and playing judo. Did aikido and karate in high school - a dabbling of kickboxing (really humorous kickboxing that proves that we all SUCK at some components of martial arts). Started back with aikido because I found an independent club that trained really hard and didn't like BS. Dabbled in traditional weapon systems.

Started back into boxing/grappling/MMA in 2005. Started getting interested in Internal Strength in 2007. Met Dan Harden that summer . . impressed enough that this is something "different" and also very, very worthwhile training that I started looking for other avenues to explore it. Met Mike Sigman in 2008. Still working on "this stuff" still getting together with other people interested in "this stuff". It's a long process - it's a different way to move.

Moved to a new location in the last year. Joined a MMA gym. Still working on "this stuff". Still making progress. Temporarily taking a break from the formal role playing side of martial arts that involves pajamas and lots of bowing.

This stuff is different. I hear lots of people say they "already do that" or that you "learn it through hard traning". This stuff is different. But I don't know that you're going to learn that for yourself if you've already convinced yourself you know it all already.

The thing is - I've always trained hard. To get anywhere with "this stuff" (beyond just talking about how awesome it is), you have to train harder than you would believe - ridiculous amounts of solo work and conditioning to transform your body. How powerful you are is based on how well your body is conditioned - simple as that. There's a skill component as well . . which is very mentally taxing . . after . .AFTER you've done a boatload of that work . .then you can realisticaly think about how you can apply it.

This is stuff is different. And it's bloody difficult. And time consuming.

But then - you show me any path/Way/Do/Tao that is worth a piss that isn't

Exactly........ Self discovery, and I have trained very hard in my life, but am at the stage in my life where I would like to relax a bit now....
But as I said, thanks anyway....
Oh....... I don't know it all but I know a fair ol' bit....
In another few years I will say to you all......... it's all in the basics......

You have every right to not want to explore this stuff. It is simply your decision. You have heard from numerous people who have clearly articulated the differences in the "IT stuff" and pointed out that if you have not put your time in directly with this stuff, you really do not know it (and therefore cannot do it). You can pretend that you can do it, but you simply stand out as the prince without his clothing on. You can pretend that it is all nonsense and you still act like that same prince.

You have been offered opportunities to experience some of this stuff first-hand and you do not want to have to put your words to genuine reality tests. That is fine as well, because it is simply your decision. I would just respectfully request that you simply stop with the negative comments about things that you do not really know about and do not want to find out about. That way, people can continue to discuss aspects of an art that you do not believe in, want to do, etc. without having to digress to address your overly-testosterone based perception of your reality of things.

There are people who not looking for this and could care less
There are people who do not and cannot fathom it exists in any real, meaningful, or useful way
There are people who have felt it and understand the power and now want it and are doing the work to get it
Not everyone who actually DOES have something...really has everything.
Not everyone who has something can teach it to others
Not everyone who actually has something really CAN use it in any meaningful way in fighting -a legitimate reason it has enjoyed a bad rep.

And everyone in the above examples is happy and is having a wonderful life...