So… her mother just endorsed lying, because she’s ‘going to hell anyway’ – Why would SHE need to be lied to, when ‘the big non-existent cosmic zombie in the sky’ ALREADY KNOWS, what does lying to the mother get the mother?
.
She already knows athiests & agnostics & other religions exist… I’m liking Dorothy more and more now. If only she had said “When I’m president, I’ll still be forming a Christian Army to fight Islam!” – the mother would have said “Thank Ghod!”
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Dorothy could have whispered to herself “Pray all you want in that foxhole kid… just pray that the neutrons get through the sand and mountains, and into the caves of Tora Bora before YOU have to go in there and flush ’em out!”

Why, exactly, should Dorothy be reticent about her atheism? Joyce certainly isn’t reticent about her religiosity. Ever notice how it’s considered perfectly normal and polite to talk about your religion, but talking about being atheist is perceived to be aggressive and hostile?

Well, you have the conservative fraction of the population like Joyce and her family who will condemn you to hell for not believing. Many people also believe that a person cannot be morally good without belief in God and believe that atheists are evil merely for their lack of faith. Most atheists I know do not talk about religion at all because of this; they can’t express their views without taking the chance of being condemned for them. Dorthy is making a brave stand here by being blunt about it to people she knows will strongly oppose her beliefs.

It does go both ways. I’ve been in a class where I’d participate and as soon as the professor found out that I was a Christian he went out of his way to ridicule and dismiss every single thing out of my mouth. being a Christian automatically means that I’ve gotten a lobotomy, apparently.

Religion and politics are commonly said to be the two things you never talk about in polite company, and it’s true regardless of which religion you are (where “none” is also an option).

There is no good reason why Dorothy “should” have to hide her atheism, but conventional wisdom does say that both she AND Joyce should be reluctant, and Joyce only isn’t because she’s Joyce.

I’d add, though, that as much as it sucks for Dorothy right now, as unfair as it is, as awful as it would make anyone feel to know that their closest friend has lied to their parents about some critical part of their identity…

…that she also knows some of Joyce’s situation, knows her parents told her that people like Dorothy would send her straight to Hell, and it’s not unreasonable to extrapolate that Joyce may get in serious trouble with her family over this. Post-attempted rape, Joyce begged her friends not to tell the authorities because then her parents would make her come home and stop going to university.

I don’t know if the strip is going to handle it that seriously or not, but this is not the best time to try to change Joyce’s parents’ minds. The best time will be four years later, after they’ve gotten to know you, when Joyce has completed college and is independent.

I hear you. I’m an atheist, and happen to live in a town with more churches per capita then any town should rightfully have. I tell everyone I’m an Atheist. It’s who I am. Do I then have to argue with them? No. I say “I’m and Atheist” and now you know that about me. I will avoid the topic of religion like the plague after that point; however, if they start to push their agenda on me, I push back. Hard. I belong to an Atheist/Agnostic/Anti-Theist group. I’m well informed on religion, I’m full of counter arguments, and despite my faithlessness, I have the patience of a Saint, so I’ll argue all day without showing any sign of losing my temper. They hate that.

“Ever notice how it’s considered perfectly normal and polite to talk about your religion, but talking about being atheist is perceived to be aggressive and hostile?”

From personal experience I have to conjecture that part of the problem is that some (not all, but they are out there) atheists go out of their way to be aggressive and hostile towards people who follow a religion. Once had a seminar in which a group of people, including a buddihist and a christian, were speaking on the subject of religion. The Buddihist said something to the effect that he enjoys having civil conversations about religion and welcomes dialogue. Guy stands up in the audience and says something along the lines of “Well, how am I supposed to have a civil conversation with you when I think all of you are crazy and stupid?” I realize not all atheists are assholes like this dude was being, but I’ll wager the atheists who are inclined to act like that try to be as loud and vocal about it as possible (like all assholes everywhere, including religious assholes) and thus they are the ones that stand out to religious people.

Seriously? SERIOUSLY? Do you ever see Atheists going door to door proselytizing? Do you ever see them trying to shame people? It’s one thing to question the logic behind someone’s choices, it’s something else entirely to judge them for them. To be honest, we Atheists put up with a lot of shit from Christians with a smile, but if we say ANYTHING you scream bloody murder about how we are persecuting you.

Now, that’s not everyone, but I’ve had a number of experiences where I’ve been shut out of a conversation because I’m happily religious. The most blatant being my then landlord in a shared living situation who was consistently openly hostile to my wife because of it. (She’s more vocal than I am – not in trying to get anyone else to join or anything, just in getting her personal belief needs met.)

The situation ended some time ago, thankfully. It’s regrettable, too – everyone else in the household was very cool and kind. Religiously, it was an interesting mix – another atheist, two Mormons, one non-denominational Christian, and a practicing Wiccan.

Yeah, straight-up I have had more atheists try to force their world view on me then any other group. They may not go door to door, but the Mormon and Witnesses have always been polite when I ask them to leave; I have seen atheists corner people on public transportation and harangue and harass them about how “stupid” they are.

Yes. Seriously. I know this might come as a shock, but people using their beliefs to act superior and condescending to other people is not a phenomena limited to the religious. Self-righteousness is a human quality, not a religious one.

“Do you ever see Atheists going door to door proselytizing? Do you ever see them trying to shame people?”

Going door to door? Not so much. Trying to shame people. Yes. I in fact just described an atheist trying to do that EXACTLY.

” It’s one thing to question the logic behind someone’s choices, it’s something else entirely to judge them for them.”

Calling someone crazy and stupid IS judging them.

“To be honest, we Atheists put up with a lot of shit from Christians with a smile, but if we say ANYTHING you scream bloody murder about how we are persecuting you.”

If you go around shoving your beliefs down other people’s throats, if you act self-righteous and superior to others because you think one way and they think another, you are as awful and vile as all these christians you are ranting about. I’m perfectly happy to respect people who can respect me. I don’t care if your an atheist or not. What I do care about is if you act like a shithead towards other people. I don’t put up with that crap from christians or other faiths, so why should it be any different coming from an atheist?

It’s not about that; it’s about Joyce knowing her parents. Sure, her comment at the end is… questionable at best, but I get the distinct impression that she simply wants her parents not to question her friendship with Dorothy (whether to avoid a fight or because she really hopes they’ll like her); if the first thing they learn about her is that, they might do just that. (We’ll have to see, obviously.) Given Joyce’s initial reaction, it’s a little strange that that might not occur to Dorothy.

I mean, when I meet someone who I know to be very religious, regardless of the context, I make an effort not to have, “Hey, I’m a nonbeliever!” be the first thing I say to them. I’m not ashamed of it, nor unwilling to talk about it, but I can acknowledge that it’s a tender subject for some best not brought up with people I’ve known for less than five minutes, at least not without something else being discussed first. It’d be a bit like walking up to someone who you know holds political views different from yours and saying, “Hi! My name is [X] and I’m a member of an oppositional political party.” There’s nothing wrong with saying it, there’s no reason to be ashamed of it, but it’s not a good lead-in.

While in other places, it’s how much you can make a complete ass of yourself and somehow managed to have supporters. That and play a subtle game of race politics…or just outright saying how much the government is evil even though the opposition is just as guilty.

I would like to point out here that there’s nothing wrong with Satanism. It’s a real form of religious philosophy, and is more about celebrating individualism and humanism and free will than human sacrifice or reveling in evil. There are theistic and atheistic branches, too, so it’s also possible to be an atheistic satanist, someone who recognizes Lucifer/Satan as a mythical figure and uses him as a symbol of the philosophy.

Frankly, a lot of satanic / luciferian beliefs are pretty mainstream, too, like the idea that sin is bullshit and that there’s nothing wrong with expressing your natural desires as long as you do it responsibly.

And if you think about it from a neutral perspective, you can see why someone would want to venerate the Adversary. Modern satanism is generally a reaction to the fairly oppressive force of modern Christianity, so by casting its adversary as your hero you are rebelling. And I mean, Lucifer’s role in “ruining” the Garden of Eden? He made humanity what it is today, separating us from the animals with — not sin! — but wisdom. He’s kind of like Prometheus, really.

Whatever your philosophy is, intentionally naming it after a literal embodiment of evil (even if symbolic) for the purpose of making enemies will, well, make enemies.

The entire idea of something called “Satanism” is very childish, regardless of what the thing itself is.

Also,
“…the idea that sin is bullshit and that there’s nothing wrong with expressing your natural desires as long as you do it responsibly.”
So there is something wrong with acting irresponsibly, called “sin” in some religions?

“Whatever your philosophy is, intentionally naming it after a literal embodiment of evil (even if symbolic) for the purpose of making enemies will, well, make enemies.”

1.) I’m not a Satanist/Luciferian.
2.) I believe the point is that Lucifer is only a symbol of evil if you believe that the Christian God is good.
3.) I don’t think Luciferians or Satanists particularly care what Christians think of them, and certainly they don’t prescribe to a religious philosophy for the purpose of making other people mad. Being a reaction to Christianity is not the same thing doing something only to spit on somebody else. Lutheran Christianity was a reaction to the Catholic Church’s practices at the time; does that make them childish?

“The entire idea of something called ‘Satanism’ is very childish, regardless of what the thing itself is.”

1.) Still not a Satanist/Luciferian, so… I don’t care what you think of them.
2.) I bet they don’t care what you think of them either.
3.) Don’t think it’s actually any more childish than venerating any other figure. Again, Satanists/Luciferians don’t believe him to be evil. You missed a huge chunk of what I was saying if you don’t get that they aren’t people who revel in evil.

“So there is something wrong with acting irresponsibly, called ‘sin’ in some religions?”

1.) Again, noooot a Satanist/Luciferian. I was making no judgment statements on any form of religious philosophy, only trying to explain what Satanism/Luciferianism IS.
2.) Your question is missing some words, I assume, since what you’re technically asking me is whether sin exists in other religions. And surely you know that it does. I’ll try to answer your potential questions anyway, but know that I’m doing it as me, someone with no particular expertise, expressing only my personal beliefs.

If you meant…

Q: So there is something wrong with sin, if it’s defined by me as “acting irresponsibly”?

A: Of course acting irresponsibly is not ideal, but making mistakes is part of the human experience, and unfortunately “acting irresponsibly” is not how most people define sin. Most people define sin as things like “experiencing sexual desire”, which are not in and of themselves bad.

A. Yes, because again “irresponsible behavior” is not how sin is defined by most people. (I doubt this is what you meant.) I don’t think people should fear being stained by thoughts and feelings that are perfectly normal and natural, and I think the repression causes real harm.

Also, “not caring” affects reality when the reality in question is “being called childish”. If you don’t care that someone thinks you’re being childish, then being called childish is pointless and has no power.

oh Li, i almost didn’t recognize you. anyway i actually was posting to say more or less what you said with the added point that aside from venerating the adversary of the christian faith, who is going to follow a church called “the church of whatever?” or maybe “The church of doing whatever the hell me want?”

How about: Iranian pregnant atheistic mother of three mentally challenged children, adoptive mother of five, foster mother of three, paraplegic, and ALSO single.
While these features on any other person would get them in the newspaper for their (likely) good deeds, I believe there would be many hundreds of groups who would hate her if she ran for president.

Responding to Volkai.
We already had one, here in Brazil: Fernando Henrique Cardoso.
At least I remenber him sayng something to that effect and causing some stir, but it was far from being the less regarded thing about him.

Yeah, and for a long time they would have been right. The question is just how many people would be opposed to an atheist president. With 43% of people saying they wouldn’t vote for an atheist, it’s pretty clear that it’s not very probable at the moment. Back in the ’60s, I’m sure the numbers would have been similar for a black president. It’s not really a matter of a black presidential candidate like Obama swooping in and surprising us all, it’s a matter of ideas about black people slowly changing. Until such ideas change about atheists change as well, not seeing it happening is completely reasonable.

@JBO: Atheists are eligible to run for public office in the United States; it’s a question of whether voters will want to vote for them. It’s unconstitutional to prevent atheists (or any religious minority) from running for public office.

As for your rhetorical question about Americans not voting for atheists, there was a time when they wouldn’t vote for Catholics or Jews; right now there are many Catholic and Jewish senators and representatives, and the Supreme Court of the United States is 2/3 Catholic, 1/3 Jewish. Americans are a lot more tolerant than people like you give them credit for.

Actually that’s not true. 7 states (Maryland, Texas, Pennsylvania, Tennesse, Mississippi, South Carolina and Arkansas) require you to believe in a “Supreme Being” to run. Bigotry is alive and well in the American political process. You think black people get discriminated against? Try being a Jewish Atheist.

$20 says she said it to troll her friend’s uber-religious parents. Either that, or we’re being set up for an epic takedown where Dorothy tells Joyce’s parents that she’s capable of being her own person and making her own decisions.

Based on my knowledge of Arizona, wouldn’t being an atheist make you LESS likely to be elected there…? When we lived there, the other neighborhood kids threatened my brother with a gun because we’re Jewish. Thankfully, they didn’t quite know about the atheist part.

It does affect her, actually. Now comes the risk of Joyce’s parents freaking out and not permitting Joyce to see her again, along with other unpleasantness that could have been avoided if she kept her mouth shut.

Well, that depends. Is Joyce putting herself through college? Would her parents be willing to withhold tuition money? And how much does Joyce respect their authority vs. her own will? (I suspect they wouldn’t be able to, but it’s not impossible; wouldn’t be the first time parents who were funding their child’s education put an ultimatum on that sort of thing, or made them go to a more religious school.)

More importantly, though, is the arguments it may cause. I don’t think Joyce is the type to rebel or argue with her parents at all if she can help it — I mean, she actively sought a chaperone for a date. A serious argument with them, even if it doesn’t have any consequences other than emotional ones, could take a real toll on her.

Not that she should have to keep her friends’ religions (or lack thereof) from them, but this may not be the best way to introduce the subject; a sudden, not-so-casual mention of it when they’ve barely met her is more likely to upset things than a more subtle introduction of the knowledge, which, really, isn’t the most important thing they should know about Dorothy and her friendship with Joyce anyway.

You never know, Joyce’s parents could take this positively if they think Joyce is working to “save” Dorothy. (Especially if Dorothy’s willing to throw Joyce a bone and admit that she has gone to church with her, and gloss over the part where she was gladly let out of it after the one time).

This is exactly the reason why I can’t stand Christians. Can’t they see how offensive it is to go around telling people that they’re going to hell? Somehow, I don’t think it would go over very well if I went around telling people that god isn’t real and their religion is a lie.

By being an example of the fallacy “Some person(s) of Group X have Flaw Y, therefore all persons of Group X have Flaw Y”.

Of course, there is also a difference in that Christians have a manual and a community that might encourage them to tell non-believers they are going to hell, whereas truck drivers don’t have a manual or a community encouraging them to be ungrateful deadbeats.

This is a really silly argument. When he said he’d been told to go to hell by his own family, that was absolutely not to say that he hasn’t been told the same thing by other religious people.

And also? Check yourself a little. I know it’s tempting, I know that “anecdotes shouldn’t trump statistics” causes tremendous feelings of superiority, but try not to tell someone that letting a traumatic experience with a family member color their worldview is wrong.

I’d argue that it’s not ideal, but if you pay attention to what spaceinvader42 actually said, he’s not letting it dictate the way he treats others. Saying “This is why I can’t stand Christians” is pretty harmless.

(See also: “This is why I can’t stand lawyers.” “This is why I can’t stand bankers.” There is zero difference between these three statements, except that one of them is always [angrily] interpreted to be a statement about ALL [category X] EVERYWHERE, and the other two are correctly understood to be complaints about problematic institutions, not individuals.)

Uhm, no. I dislike all three, because they all grammaticly are a statement about ALL of cathegory X everywhere. Making these kinds of statements when talking about delicate issues just hurts the common cause we all seem to be trying to support.

I’ve been told the same, but not my a cousin. By my then-boyfriend’s mother. (He was also going to hell for the same reason.)
Except that the person saying this was Jewish and apparently missing the part where we don’t even HAVE a long-term hell. No, really, we don’t. Longest anyone can be in the closest analogue is a year and a day.
That kind of behavior isn’t specific to any one religion, but it does seem specific to the intersection of jackass and highly religious.

It wasn’t a thing here, even among the strictest denominations, but now some lower-middle-class types are starting to import it from the States.
They tend to be the same sort of folk who complain about the ‘foreign ways’ of immigrants. It’s some sort of badge to show that they’re better than everyone else; they also never tip, and always leave a mess behind in cafes, just so the staff know whats what.
If it wasn’t for religion, I’m sure they’d find something else to be arsey about.

And also the idea that many Christians have that atheists are amoral people who go around lying, stealing, and who knows what else, because obviously the fear of god is the only reason why you wouldn’t just do whatever you want all the time. Believe it or not, it is possible to be moral without believing in god. Frankly, its much more disturbing to me to think that fear of god is the only thing stopping Christians from going around raping, pillaging, and murdering.

Uhm, again I think you are basing your ideas of christians off of a tiny minority. Most christians that I know are normal people like you and I. When I applied for a social year abroad with a Christian organisation and mentoined that I am agnostic/deitst at best they were just like: “We don’t care. You are the kind of person we a relooking for.”

And yet, most of the Christian politicians and tv preachers further frightening ignorance all the time. Even though not all of them talk bad about people, they still reject evidence against sexuality being a choice. I suppose I can’t really talk since I used to believe the same thing…and was a creationist.

I know that, I’m not saying that all Christians would do that. I have plenty of friends who are Christians. But I’m addressing those who do. All I really want is a more civil world where people don’t go around insulting each other’s beliefs.

I admit this is a bit of a sore point for me, thanks to my family’s own issues with religion. I just wish people could learn to respect each other’s differences.

It’s taken a while for me to dissasociate Christians from assholes who use Christianity to justify being xenophobic, homophobic, racist, and generally unpleasant. Christian’s aren’t inherintly bad. It’s just people who like to use it as an excuse to be an awful person that need to GO.

This very much. During my social year here in Bolivia I have not hidden the fact that I am not babtised and that I am atheist/agnostic/deist. Did any of my deeply catholic and conservative co workers and students care? Not a bit. An asshole is an asshole no matter what faith and a kind person is a kind perswon no matter what faith.

And spaceinvader42, you’ve just demonstrated what I hate about atheists. I’m not Christian. But I hate that YOUR hate is towards Christians alone. ALL RELIGIONS DO THIS. ALL OF THEM. And atheists also like to yell at Christians by telling them that their beliefs are idiotic. Most religious people don’t do this. Some do. The people that do get the most attention because what they’re doing is shocking. They by NO MEANS represent the whole Christian population.

You too are spreading HATE and INTOLERANCE for an entire religion. There are many many many atheists that tell religious people that what they believe is a lie, a falsehood and that these people need to believe what THEY believe because what THEY believe is the truth and the light. Don’t just assume that this doesn’t happen.

*heaves a breath* I’m Buddhist. And it saddens me to watch the hypocrisy between “believers” and “non-believers.” I know I might have come off as rude, and I apologize if I ruffled feathers.

You stated an opinion. It was bound to happen. And I think it’s mostly redirected anger from a family that has personal investment in religion. I think this because he said that in a comment somewhere above this.

I’m well aware that this is an issue with all religions, I just addressed Christianity in particular here because that’s Joyce’s religion, and because it is the religion that I, and I imagine most of the other readers, have the most experience with. I’m not intending to insult all Christians, or all religious people. I just want the ones who tell me that I’m going to hell to leave me alone.

Again, then why did you say that you “can’t stand christians” and that “their religion is a lie”?

Those are some clear insults of christians in teh first and religious people in general in the second statement.
If you did not intend to be understood as you are right now, then you should have worded your OP differently.

You’re right, I probably should have worded it differently. I meant that I can’t stand Christians who go around telling non-believers they are going to hell. Most Christians I know are perfectly nice people and have never once told me I’m going to hell.

Agreed, this can be done by people of any faith or lack thereof. For example, my mother, a non-practicing Jew, is really, let’s say reactive about Wicca. You can’t even say the WORD Wicca around her or she blows up about it. Somehow she’s gotten it into her head that Wicca is Satanism. Never mind the fact that there’s nothing wrong with Satanism either. Frankly, if two people introduced themselves to me and immediately told me their religions and one was Christian and the other a Satanist, I’d be more apt to give the Satanist a chance. I don’t have anything against Christians in general, but those who introduce themselves with their faith tend to be the ones that WILL tell you up front you’re going to hell, at least in my experience. My crazy, emotionally abusive, paternal grandmother fell in that category of Christian when she was alive. As I personally believe in reincarnation, I like to think she was reborn as a housefly. (Yeah, I have issues…)

I want a montage of Joyce’s parents trying to run away but at every turn they see something offensive to them. A doorway opens and there’s a Bill Maher poster inside, a group of students watching Rocky Horror, a lesbian couple holding hands, and someone reading a biology textbook. They get into the elevator, but then Dina enters and the doors close, she says, “Dinosaurs!” and then we hear muffled screaming from the other side of the door.

“ATHEIST?”
“Haha YEP. Oh, Lemme go introduce you to Ethan Siegal. He’s my boyfriend. My Jewish boyfriend. My GAY Jewish boyfriend. Is Billie around here? She’s an alcoholic who thinks everyone experiments with their own gender when it comes to hanky-pankying.”
“…Off to Christian college you go.”

Although, I can see them sucking in their beliefs and going along with it. They did go to this college. I wouldn’t be surprised if they’d hung out with atheists before. I get the sense that Joyce’s parents TOLERATE (big emphasis on tolerate) people who don’t agree with their faith system and political views. I could be wrong though…

That last speech bubble is pregnant with irony, and got a big guffaw out of me. I have to say it’s entertaining to watch Joyce twist herself in Gordian knots of hypocrisy as she navigates between the Charybdis of the parentals and the Scylla of her peers. (Sorry for the mythical mixed metaphors–at least ropes and navigation are tangentially related. :p ) I watch with equal parts of sympathy and schadenfreude. This is going to be a really interesting storyline, however it turns out.

I’m going to attribute Joyce’s last line there to the heat of the moment (Watsonian) or the rule of funny (Doylist). Cause she seems too nice to actually think that the threat of going to Hell is the only reason you shouldn’t tell lies.

There’s that look of abject horror you can get from fundies by telling them that you don’t believe as they do, for one.

Tell me about it. I had a whole speech typed up where I determined the value of honesty given the ability of one’s actions to impact on one’s society and future and basically reinventing the categorical imperative, but then I posted the second paragraph you see there instead.

Well…Joyce seems to think that avoiding hell is the only reason not to lie, or more generally, to act ethically. It doesn’t seem to have occurred to her that nontheists might have found other reasons to act ethically, e.g., self-respect, empathy, the golden rule (which predates Christianity), etc.

Okay, I need to use the intermission to get more popcorn and Pepsi before the big fight begins. And maybe water a tire while I’m at it.

Joyce vs her parents? Dorothy vs Joyce’s parents? Dorothy’s parents vs Joyce’s parents? Or maybe one big Last One Standing battle royale between Joyce and Dorothy in one corner, Dorothy’s parents in a second, and Joyce’s parents in a third?

With Mike and his folks showing up to give commentary. Or maybe Dina and hers (quietest commentary ever!).

Also, I should point out that it’s not every Christian who goes around telling people they’re going to hell for not believing. It’s the self-righteous holier-than-thou-art Born Again Christian fundamentalists (and some extreme far-right Catholics) who do that. But then, it’s not all “born-again” types; as a Born-Again Pagan, I’m open about my beliefs but I’m not telling people they’re going to be punished after death for not being pagan.

As it is, I’m fairly certain that if some of these Xtian fundies were born into Hindi or Shinto faiths they’d still be telling non-believers they’ll be punished in whatever means those faiths call for (reincarnated as a dung beetle, maybe?). Half the time, it’s the person’s nature, and the other half (like Joyce) it’s how their parents told them to act! (Sometimes, it’s just the one parent dominating things; the other parent goes “yes, dear”.)

*Sierra. Especially ironic given your userpic. 🙂 That’s who I assumed she meant, though, to the best of my recollection, we’ve only had the one church visit depicted in the strip. However, Sierra was the most amenable of the group to going. Whether the church was amenable to her shoelessness (seriously, is she going to do that when it gets below freezing?) is another story.

I think it’s absolutely adorable how Dorothy’s parents think just because their daughter doesn’t believe in God, it means she can’t or won’t go to Sunday services with a friend. It’s actually really funny when you stop and think about it. XD

This makes me wonder. Is Dorothy an atheist raised by atheists? Or is Dorothy an atheist because she made that decision along the way and her parents are believers? If it’s the former, this could get interesting if the two sets of parents get into it over their clashing views…