Within the Charismatic Movement, discernment is often viewed as this supernatural ability to see if the spirit which influenced something is a good spirit or a demon. That is not what true discernment is in the modern context. Others within the same movement say that discernment is a supernatural feeling you get that tells you if someone or something is sound or unsound. They treat it as if you can simply feel when something is wrong, similar to how Yoda could feel a “disturbance in the force” in the Star Wars movies. No such feeling is ever described in the Bible.

Some people, including one popular blogger, David J. Stewart, sit at their computers and write about how wrong people are on certain issues that aren’t essential while at the same time believing many heresies (or false doctrines) themselves. This isn’t true discernment, this is just hypocrisy. Further, it is an insult to those who do practice true discernment as well as the Holy Spirit, who grants the gift of discernment.

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A former member of Kong Hee’s City Harvest Church Singapore said in a Facebook post today:

“Truth be told, I was also brainwashed in the past… many of us grew up in a church whereby the culture was one of submission and not question – for that would lead to “discipleship” because you “cannot flow” with the vision. We were taught to “look up to” and punished if we instead “looked into”.

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Chris Rosebrough, on a recent Fighting For The Faith program, reviewed C3 ‘prophetess’ Vicki Simpson, as she preached at C3 San Diego. In his review Chris makes it quite clear that when Vicki Simpson gets up to speak:

“None of it is even remotely true. Every word from her mouth was totally empty. God hasn’t even spoken in this sermon as she has muzzled Him, claimed to be speaking for Him and everything she said, none of it was even biblical.”

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Although Chris Rosebrough identified a few key women as the Mysti-Chicks, we consider what he was addressing was more of an uprising within the modern day Church. Here is Chris Rosebrough to explain the Mysti-Chicks:

This is why we have specifically labeled this feminist movement as the Mysti-Chicks Uprising. It is rallying women to rise up and embrace their unbiblical forms of church governance and non-Christian practices.

These are just SOME women who were and are responsible for usurping this biblical authority and causing divisions in churches around the world.

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“Excellent interview!!! It was as if I had been reading every note I had written down in the last 5 years on the subject….yep, 20 years in that movement and I didn’t even know that I was in it…yikes!!!” – Fighting for the Faith listener [Source]

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As you may have noted, we have been monitoring the scandalous case of Kong Hee and Sun Ho for the last few years. Not only has Kong Hee been found guilty of his crimes of embezzling church funds to finance his wife’s music career, he was internationally exposed as a liar. And his lies were debunked by Chew Eng Han with evidence presented by him at his hearing.

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A few years, ago we made our readers aware that Phil Pringle held to the damnable$Health and Wealth$ gospel. In his book ‘Dead for Nothing’, Pringle distorted the gospel of salvation by making the following claim:

“Jesus became poor regarding the wealth of this world on the cross, that those who receive Him may become rich with the wealth of this world.”

This is a false gospel that will send people to hell, as outlined in Galatians 1:

“I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.” Galatians 1:6-10

This is in stark contrast to the gospel that was proclaimed in 1 Corinthians 15, (“that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures…”).

Prosperity heretics preach and teach Jesus Christ was rich, Christ died to make you rich, that you must tithe and demands that you are to “blessed to be a blessing”.

We cannot stress enough the danger people put themselves in, when men like Phil Pringle get away with peddling such a false gospel. Even though he wrote this damnable heresy nearly fifteen years ago, Pringle continues to give this heresy his stamp of approval by republishing this material as recently as September 2015 on his own WordPress blog here.

Phil Pringle writes,

2 Cor 8:9For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.

Paul is here referring to the fact that Jesus Christ died without one possession to his name, without one stitch of clothing on His body without any money at all so that he could take poverty to the cross and secure its defeat for those who embrace the Saviour.

This Scripture is couched right in the middle of two Chapters written to the Corinthians dealing almost exclusively with the subject of money.Many commentators have great difficulty admitting that this passage is actually dealing with money.In fact I don’t think I’ve yet found one who agrees that Paul is speaking specifically regarding finances.The most common comment is that it is a reference to spiritual riches.The Thompson Chain Reference Bible is a wonderful resource and study bible, but at this point he too in the margin describes what Paul is referring to as ‘spiritual riches’; Jamieson, Fausset and Brown comes the closest saying, ‘…in the heavenly glory which constitutes His riches, and all other things, so far as is really good for us’,Matthew Henry interprets it as, ‘rich in the love of God, rich in the blessings of the new covenant, rich in the hopes of eternal life’.The Word Biblical Commentary, claiming a team of respected International scholars who were ‘a showcase of the best in evangelical critical scholarship for a new generation’, states regarding this verse; ‘Here, surely wealth and poverty are ciphers, not for material prosperity and penury but for spiritual exchange as the Incarnate Christ became what we are, so we could become what He is’. For that to be consistent, the scripture would have to read, ‘Christ…became (spiritually) poor, that you might become (spiritually) rich’.This then becomes an absurd, almost blasphemous proposition.To say or even intimate that Jesus Christ was a spiritually poor person is ludicrous. Here is a person who raised the dead, healed the sick, displayed complete prowess over demons and the devil, revealed truths regarding God, man and the entire purpose of God that have withstood every kind of test and scrutiny.This person was not a spiritually poor person.Rather it was because of His spiritual wealth that he was able to go to the cross and bear away the curses that afflict mankind.Even if we limit His poverty to the time He was on the cross, claiming it was our poverty that He took, are we to conclude that the ‘hope’ he entered into was a spiritually poor position!?To maintain any kind of hope, and faith through His ordeal demonstrates an extraordinary spiritual richness.In our effort to read more into the statement than is actually there we make fools of ourselves and prevent God fulfilling His great promises in our lives. Jesus became poor regarding the wealth of this world on the cross, that those who receive Him may become rich with the wealth of this world.

The lunacy of a totalitarian New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) “Apostle” Samuel Rodriguez promoting classic NAR ‘devilstomp’ (this is not a Christian doctrine).

A disgusting display of Phil Pringle rebuking the sick at his conference for not using their faith to get God to heal them.

Thieves fraudulently getting money through guilt trips and lies.

How organisations can get away with abusing and exploiting the sick and dying in our communities like this under the guise of “Christianity” should make anyone concerned.

I HAVE A MANTLE & I’M NOT AFRAID OF IT?

About sixteen minutes in, Chris reviewed NARpostle Samuel Rodriguez. NARpostles are part of the New Apostolic Reformation cult, a cult that emerged from the New Order of the Latter Rain revival/movement in 1948. Many heretical doctrines emerged from this movement including an heretical concept that God is restoring Apostles and Prophets to govern the end-times church. C3 Church is part of the NAR. So it’s no surprise they invited NARpostle Samuel Rodriguez. In this segment, Chris ‘accidentally’ exposed Rodriguez peddling a NARpostolic form of ‘Strategic Level of Spiritual Warfare’ (SLSW) which is akin to the NAR devilstomp.

The spiritual ravings of this man has all the markings of the NAR’s fanatical SLSW doctrines.

PRINGLE SPIRITUALLY ABUSING THE SICK

At the Presence Conference, Phil Pringle likes to look like a Benny Hinn wannabe. He promotes the idea that he can heal people by putting on a healing ‘signs and wonders’ crusade at his Presence Conferences. When he doesn’t get the numbers up on stage that he wants, he usually displays an attitude that often results in him speaking irreverently and turning people away from true Christianity.

In the video below, you can already see terminally ill and desperate people lined up for Pringle to pray for them during a “miracle” session. Imagine how all the sick and dying would feel having to stomach what Pringle is saying in this clip, (remember – these people are manipulated to give money at these events to get these miracles):

Chris Rosebrough stopped and reflected on what Pringle was conveying God saying:

“Let see if I got this straight… I just received a report that I have terminal cancer. Okay. So I got terminal cancer so I call out to God.
‘God! I’m perishing!!!’

And God’s response is, ‘I gave you the bible, I sent Jesus and the Holy Spirit…

Yeah! You’re move!

It’s up to you.’

The fact that Pringle has no problem spiritually and emotionally abusing people suffering sickness and terminal illness, only confirms that all he cares about is himself and his ‘healing’ facade. His sycophantic and unregenerate nature before God and man is on full display. Here is the transcript from the clip:

“Don’t you care [to the audience]? When we refuse to raise our faith we’ll accuse God of being uncaring about our circumstance. They said, ‘You don’t care we are perishing’. You don’t think God loves you because you’re perishing. Your marriage is wobbly. Your sickness has come. But He’s asleep!

You say, ‘Wake up! Wake up! Do something for me!’

‘MOVE GOD! MOVE GOD! MOVE GOD!’

Sometimes He’s saying like, ‘I sent my Son, I sent the Holy Spirit, I sent the Word of God; you’re move. You’re to- You’re to take a hold of it. What makes you think I’ve got anything left up here?’

You can do stuff people! Christian’s hovering around the cross too long. I love the cross. Got saved there. But we’ve gotta move from a Savior to a Lord.

But He’s ruling in our lives and we’re ruling in life. We’re living the life that he’s purchased for us, to make us full human beings. Not some living, chopped down experience of life. Rise up. Lay hold to the promise. Pick up the sword of the spirit. Fight the good fight of faith. It’s a great fight cos you’ll always win. All you gotta do is put up a bit of a fight. Just whatever fight you’ve got. Just- it might just be a tiny bit. And I’m preaching to you guys here. I hope you’re hearing me.”

FINANCIAL FRAUD HIDING IN PLAIN SITE

The last segment of Chris Rosebrough’s review of the 2016 Presence Conference was a collection of sound bites exposing C3 for bringing guest speakers in to fraudulently strip people of their money. J John’s was particularly bad. Chris Rosebrough’s expose on this segment was particularly good.

PROGRAM SEGMENTS:
00:05:49 Todd Bentley Back to the Future Mantle Dream
00:16:47 Samuel Rodriguez I Have a Mantle and I’m Not Afraid to Use It
00:18:54 Phil Pringle God Has Done His Part
00:23:07 Presence Fleecings by Samuel Rodriguez, J. John and Louie Giglio
01:07:34 Craig Groeschel Preaches at Osteen’s Building
01:27:28 Sermon Review: I Am A Sheep by Robert Morris

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So I was sent a Babylon Bee article a few days ago that played the parody of a church coming up with a Bible study based upon the Netflix show “Stranger Things.”

It was a very funny read until someone sent me the link to a Relevant Magazine article, The Gospel According to Stranger Things. When I began reading it took five seconds to go from shock to absolute anger. They were not attempting to be funny, they were dead serious–and blasphemous.

It was written by Wesley Walker, who, according to his bio, is a “classical educator with Classical Conversations, a seminarian and a postulant for Holy Orders in the Anglican Church in North America.”

Here is what I read:

Stranger Things reminds us that God’s story of salvation is the original template for all of human stories. It’s full of metaphors, symbols and even veiled references to the most compelling story in the universe, the Gospel.

Ok, so? If I tried hard I could find all these things in a Diehard movie by Bruce Willis. But here is where Relevant Magazine makes a parody into One Big Sick Joke! The article takes a theological drop into Blasphemy with this paragraph:

The show’s protagonist is a girl named Eleven. She is pretty clearly a Christ figure (Her nickname, El, even means “God” in Hebrew). She has a mysterious birth story and her true father is never mentioned, even though her mother does make an appearance. She possesses seemingly miraculous telekinetic powers. While in captivity, government officials “tempt” her to use her powers to kill a cat, which she refuses to do, paralleling Satan’s temptation of Jesus in the wilderness (Matthew 4:1-11).

So what’s wrong with this? Well here are a few bullet points to help Identify the glaring problems.

SHE- Has no resemblance to Christ as a Christ figure.

SHE- Is not God incarnate, nor is she in any since a Savior.

SHE- Is not Holy innocent and undefiled.

SHE- Is not the Redeemer, Messiah or the Son of God.

SHE- Is Not El Shaddai, God Almighty, just because her nickname is El.

Her telekinetic powers are nothing like the power of God Almighty, that is blasphemy.

Her temptation to kill a cat does not even come close. In fact, it is nothing at all like the temptation Jesus Christ faced when he willingly went out into the wilderness and was tempted by and defeated Satan, thereby establishing Himself to be the only man who could fulfill the promise of God in Genesis to finally crush the head of the serpent.

Oh, but that is not the only comparison that Wesley Walker found. Continuing from the article,

When El escapes from government captivity, she spends time with a group of lovable losers—kind of like the twelve disciples, a group composed of those who hated (Matthew the tax collector) or of a low station (i.e., fishermen). El even puts on Mike’s sister’s clothes, which alludes, I think, to the Incarnation (John 1:14a)

Oh wow! Can’t you just see the comparison to the Lord and Savior and those lovable, silly old disciples whom Jesus Called the Apostles? Oh, that is so cute when fools who have been given a voice on behalf of all Christianity are allowed to belittle the value and meaning of Christ and His Disciples.

Wesley actually has the nerve to compare a girl putting on clothes to the Incarnation of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, which is the name above every name in heaven and here on earth and even below the earth. Seriously!

Oh and that is not even close to all that Wesley Walker has to say, and we just cannot ignore this.

Walker continues the Blasphemy with this nugget:

El fails to meet the expectations of her friends because she does not rescue their friend Will from the Upside Down the way they expected. As a result, the group rejects her. You almost can’t help but notice the similarities to the way Jesus was rejected by the Jewish religious leaders because He did not meet their messianic expectations. El spends time in the wilderness where she is sustained by Eggo waffles, a pretty clear allusion to the manna sent to Israel from God while they were in the wilderness and prefigured the idea of Communion.

Um, First Jesus didn’t fail anything–He accomplished all that He set out to do. And He proceeded to redeem a people for God’s own Great name and glory.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

The Scriptures are painstakingly clear about the motive and agenda of the death of Christ and it never paints it as a lighthearted drama or game. But rather in the death of Christ, we see the greatest tragedy unthinkable. Because the only innocent man ever to live, volunteered to suffer and die thus satisfying the very wrath of God on behalf of every person God the Father has given to God the Son. Further, we find that there is no other hope for all man because we have all rebelled against God and have all earned His wrath. The Grace of Jesus Christ to grant us repentance and faith is beyond anything that has ever been done.

but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

There is so much more in that article but suffice it to say that Wesley Walker is in serious need of Biblical exhortation and training in righteousness.

You just cannot make this stuff up. I never thought that I would actually read something that dealt with Christ in a way that might actually make people more stupid if they read it. The Babylon Bee surely thought that they were just being satirical, and I doubt they thought that they were prophesying about events that would come up in just a few short days.

I really wish I were done, but I am sad to say that there is one more issue that needs to be addressed. I was also sent a quote from a well-known up and coming Word Faith power feminist Lisa Bevere.

Lisa has made a name for herself on TBN and on the conference speaking circuit, mainly for carrying around a big sword and calling women to take their role as pastors and leaders because of the supposed “millennia of oppression” of women by “domineering pigs” that act like they have the right to oppress lionesses.

Lisa Bevere Far too MANY of GOD’s DAUGHTERS who are called and gifted for ministry have been HELD BACK and denied their call by the church. For millennia, the VOICES of women have been SUPPRESSED, and the advancement of THE GOSPEL HAS BEEN CONTAINED. The enemy robs both men and women when we fall into division and attempt to add strength to one gender by subtracting it from the other. Though men and women were created to be SEPARATE in expression, we should NEVER be DIVIDED in PURPOSE. Jesus gave the Great Commission to all believers, men and women alike, and WE ALL have an IRREPLACEABLE ROLE to play in bringing His kingdom to earth. It is time we stop living within the limits others have placed on us and embrace our heaven-breathed identity as daughters #WithoutRival. (Grab a copy of my new book at WithoutRival.com or on Amazon) #Commission #CoLaborers #Gender #WithoutRival.

Lisa believes that God has called her to expose the millennia-old oppression of women who were called by God originally to be elders and teachers and Pastors in the body of Christ. She teaches that God indeed has “called” and “gifted” “God’s daughters” for ministry and they have been shamefully oppressed, held back and denied by a sinister enemy of all women everywhere.

What is this wicked enemy? Is it the demon hoards that have come straight out of Hell Perhaps it is Satan himself seeking the “God-called” ministry of women everywhere.

No brothers and sisters, this wickedness comes in a form that every woman must unsheathe their sword against. That “sinister enemy” is none other than the Church, The Bride of Christ!

Yes, you heard it, The Bride of Christ! The Bride that Jesus Christ came to live and die for and establish. The Bride that Jesus cared for so much that He gave her the Apostles doctrines to guide and secure her. This Bride which Jesus Loves and will one day bring to Himself, and feast at “the Marriage supper of the Lamb.”

According to Lisa Bevere, her declared enemy, scratch that, all women’s declared enemy is the Church because the true Church has refused to ordain and accept women into the preaching and teaching ministry of the body of Christ. After all, Lisa has looked and cannot find one single reason for this great demonic oppression. So it must be hate and that wicked notion of complementarianism. After all, surely God has always wanted women to be teaching and preaching, and we all know that God must be an egalitarian God–because Lisa said so, and she should know, because well she preaches and teaches and she couldn’t be wrong.

She has the backing of Hillsong Church, so that settles all issue’s and what makes matters worse is that for all these Millennia “The Gospel Has Been Contained” because of this wicked oppressive. As a matter of fact, Lisa reminds us all “The enemy robs both men and women when we fall into division and attempt to add strength to one gender by subtracting it from the other.”

When you start asking what God meant by those so-called sexist statements that are found in the Scripture beginning in Genesis about that whole “help meet” thing, feminists understand this to be about oppression. And true women of God should really embrace their “inner lioness.” (

(Did we tell you that you can learn to embrace your inner lioness when you buy Lisa’s book “WithoutRival” available wherever Blasphemy and heresy is sold, and definitely at Lifeway as well?)

Pastrix Lisa makes it clear, ladies, that you have a “role” and a “sword” and a “destiny” and you need to throw off those “shackles” of that old oppressive Bible, and buy her books. She is certain ladies that “It is time we stop living within the limits others have placed on us and embrace our heaven-breathed identity as daughters.” Because you know God loves to contradict Himself and confuse His followers by saying one thing for 6000 years then changing His mind and telling Lisa Bevere, Joyce Meyers, Jan Crouch, Paula White, and a whole host of other getting-rich-off-the-fattened-calf heretical pastrixes!

Like I said, you just cannot make this stuff up! I couldn’t imagine that one church in a thousand would want this howling heretic at their doorstep. She is a wolf, and if you don’t want to see that, it is because you have been blinded by yet another celebrity.

Let me pose this question: what has changed? When did God call the official meeting and declare that He has changed His mind about who His ministers are going to be?

With all her vitriol and theatrical display of “lioness power,” she is actually revealing that she is an enemy of God and His Word.

In case you didn’t catch on, what she is doing is fulfilling a promise of God, if you consider the curse of God on Adam and Eve. Genesis 3:16 (ESV) says

Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

Most conservative Bible scholars agree that the meaning of this passage is that because of the fall of Adam and Eve there will be a struggle for power and conflict in every relationship. Men will dominate and women will struggle to take the position and will demand their own authority. This is why feminism, a Marxist ideology, inside the church is destructive and will ultimately cause churches that embrace feminism to also embrace every other sin, and ultimately, destruction.

Lisa Bevere is lying to you, ladies and gentlemen. She is not your friend, nor is she a friend of the church. She is a howling wolf demanding her power to roar and take authority that is not hers. She has no right to the office she has usurped, and the evidence is in her blasphemy against God, Christ, and His bride. She wants to destroy the bride of Christ shameful gain–don’t forget to release your power and buy her book.

If God’s Word is inerrant, infallible, and inspired then I need only one passage to destroy Lisa Bevere’s so-called heaven-appointed ministry. 1 Timothy 2:12–14 (ESV) says,

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

There is another passage 1 Corinthians 14:34 which teaches the same thing. So what is being said here?

Paul the Apostle tells Timothy his protégé that women are not to teach or exercise authority over men. Some look at this as two separate commands. Women are not permitted to teach, nor exercise authority over men! However, most say this is a single command directed towards the pastoral office and women are not to be speaking from that office or exercising authority over men, in any Biblical teaching setting.

This really is about is teaching and preaching in a worship setting. Any worship setting. Small Groups, Discipleship classes, Small congregations, Large Conferences–to any group of professing Christians.

God warns us to be careful about the office of teacher James 3:1 (ESV) says,

Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

Teaching brings strict judgment for everything you teach and one of the many reasons is every word has a meaning and a necessary consequence. Lisa Bevere is teaching Socialist Marxist Feminism and claiming that God, The Bible and The Bride of Christ is oppressing women and women need to rise up and claim their power.

So what about the power to shape the minds of children? What about training up Godly children and young women. What about mentoring families in Holiness and purity? The statistics on marriage are abysmal and God has given us the solution through God’s design in the local church, where Godly women exercise their God-given abilities to mentor and disciple a whole community of women and children on how to Know God, how to be Godly and love your husbands, thereby reversing the curse in Genesis, and how to behave and act in this wicked and perverse world. Women have always had prominent roles in the local church that are vital to the life of the church. Historically it has been the women who have had the heart to love and support the local church and to care for those in need. Historically it has been the women who are always mentoring and seeking to bring new disciples in to the church. Read Titus 2:3-5; 1 Timothy 2:9; Acts1:12-14; Acts18:26. Women ministered alongside Paul according to Philippians 4:3 and they were faithful to support the ministry according to Romans 16:1-6 and 2 Timothy 1:5.

In the true Church, men and women are not at odds with each other, but rather they understand the complementary roles in which God has assigned them. Men and women are to foster love and respect and mutual support as we work together to Glorify God and Proclaim His Gospel and it’s outworkings in every way we can.

Beloved, Lisa Bevere is a lying wolf and deserves nothing but our tears and prayers that God will grant her repentance because she has been blinded by the God of this world (2 Cor 4:4). She obviously doesn’t know my King and Savior, Jesus, who loved and elevated women in their proper place:

When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! 27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! – John 19:26-27

It is high time we stopped listening to liars and wolves who are attempting to make a shipwreck of the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

“When we heard the 5-5-5 vision we got really excited to see a church where we’re believing for something that was seemingly impossible – you know, at five campuses in five years reaching 5000 people in the Bay Area for Christ and we heard statistics about 96% of the Bay Area’s unchurched and so it really spoke to our hearts that we could be a part of something great, something that could really make an impact here. We had some loans, we had a mortgage, we had a lot of reasons why we couldn’t, we could have said to each other we shouldn’t give.”

So we decided that this was really something that the Lord wanted us to do. Plus that Adam said, write the numbers down and so I wrote one number and Luke wrote another. And I’m much more of a “give a billion dollars” and Luke is a lot more “let’s be practical” . So our numbers were really far apart and it goes to say and we decided to compromise somewhere in the middle closer to Luke’s number than my number.”

That’s a little bit of a promotional video for C3SV. Remember when churches used to have names like St. Paul’s, Trinity or Holy Cross? Not any more, not any more. Especially if you’re in Silicon Valley. It’s got to sound like a computer language. C3SV stands for Christian City Church Silicon Valley, C3 (cubed) Silicon Valley. And Silicon Valley is, true, not a place where you find a lot of churches. There are churches there, good faithful churches. But 96% unchurched, the often quoted statistic, so if the place needs churches, is the answer churches like Silicon Valley?

Joining us to talk about this hipster church in Silicon Valley Shane Rosenthal executive producer of the Whitehorse Inn radio show. He is contributing writer and editor of Modern Reformation Magazine, and assistant pastor of Christ Reformation Church in St. Charles Missouri.

Shane, welcome back to Issues Etc.

Hey good to be with you

I think we would agree that Silicon Valley and every valley needs all the churches that it can get but is hipster church the answer?

Well you know that’s one of the challenges of our time right? You want to see churches growing especially in areas where there appears to be a dearth. And so in some cases you want to say great, the church is expanding. But the problem comes when you evaluate the quality of the new kind of church and in particular, you have this particular specific market demographic. Let’s appeal to the hipsters let’s appeal to the tech industry type individual. The person who might like the name ” Petri” more than a Redeemer Lutheran church name. It’s been a lot of marketing and you know appealing in the articles and the rest to cultural relevance. Those particular things show up the triumph of consumerism and marketing. So at the end of the day we are just rebranding, we’re taking the wisdom of the marketing tradition and we’re selling something they’ve packaged it, that’s being sold supposedly the same as the classical church right? Just as a new under brand, a new logo except for the fact that’s not exactly what you get at the end. It’s not just another church. In fact what happens in those kind of places is you have a complete switch from what used to be called Christianity to a new kind of Christianity, which is from a position from someone like me, well, not Christianity at all.

What do you mean by that? What is it if it’s not Christianity that’s being pushed at churches like that?

So, my insight into this comes from reading a book called “The Secularist Heresy”, written by a friend of CS Lewis named Harry Blamires way back in English context, in 1952. Blamires at that time was talking about this trend that was just beginning and he said this “today’s churchgoer is nowadays unlikely to come away with church wondering if that sermon has got any connection with the secular world outside the church. He’s more likely to come away asking has that sermon got any connection with anything other than the secular world. Has it led my thoughts to where picking up a newspaper or turning on the television could not have led? And then he says “that Christianity is relevant to all aspects of life but can we be so obsessed with being relevant that we forget how to be Christian”. And he diagnoses the problem by saying, “many have tackled the problem of how to present the Christian message in an idiom intelligible to the 20th century mind”, he’s writing in the mid 1900s.

I’ve addressed myself to the opposite problem, that of keeping the Christian message free from corruption by 20th century habits of thought, which he says are fundamentally hostile to it and the outrage is being committed in our day wherever the supposedly Christian message is presented without reference to baptism, grace, regeneration. Without reference to Incarnation, atonement, redemption. Without reference to church, sacrament or Holy Spirit. Now think about those categories he presents there. This always blows my mind, you go into a typical mega church, a particular market-driven culturally relevant group and you don’t hear about baptism, grace, regeneration, incarnation, atonement, redemption, sacraments. What are you hear are, you know, normal street language about love and warmth. Maybe a loose concept of grace. I was at one mega church where they even talked about God liking us to get funky when it came to the music. You know, I don’t know about you Todd, but I’ve read the Bible I can’t remember any place where God likes people to get funky. There was one scene in the Old Testament where He didn’t like them getting funky around the Golden Calf and he actually at once put a stop to that sort of thing.

But this is the day we live in where churches are attempting to appeal to the person of our day trying to make it relevant and actually exchanged the church, instead of being a transcendent church, have tried to make it relevant with where they are at. But in doing that they have made the church just like the world, it’s just a community group with a little bit of Christian sprinkling.

It’s ironic to me Shane, part of the trouble – they claim to be trying to address, in Silicon Valley, at C3SV church, is well, you know, these young professionals they have everything. They show up at work and food is all complimentary, they work at these big .Com’s or Tech’s or they work for places like Facebook and Google and places that are genuinely the most relevant places in the world if relevance counts for anything of that kind. But they want more! Why is it then, when they get to church on Sunday morning at C3SV, they don’t give them more! They just give them more of the same.

Yes well that’s the problem of relevance. I mean in the quest for relevance, which by the way hasn’t worked out well for them, in mainline denominations, they started down that path in the 30s 40s and 50s and ended up by the 60s preaching the Vietnam war and left-centred politics. And it’s relevant to the person who likes left-centred politics but few other people. And in the same vein, you have a start-up church doing niche demographics to find out how do we meet the young 30 something young Silicon Valley techie. And what we find out when we do that is you are going to speak his language and speak things that are relevant to his time and day. The problem is, is that propitiation typically doesn’t come up when you’re asking what’s relevant to the young Silicon Valley techie. It’s a relevant word for the Bible and it’s relevant for the perspective that God has, why we need to have God’s anger and wrath turned aside by the death of Christ. But it’s not particularly relevant to the felt-need of the techie. And when you try to adjust the, you know, the sales pitch, I am going to try to reach this one individual. Well, the fact is we are never called to do that. We’re are called to preach the gospel to all nations and make disciples of all nations. But not to adjust the message to the particular interest of one particular individual demographic group.

Some would say, look this is just what Bill Hybels, this is just what Rick Warren was doing two decades ago. They’re just carrying the ball further down the field, would you agree or disagree?

I would in general agree. This particular group, reading the articles about them, looks to be more Pentecostal and it has certain nuances but yes I think it’s the same trajectory lead by Bill Hybels and the mega church movement. Basically we’re focusing on cultural relevance, outreach, dynamic worship. They see a buyers market, so you’re trying to attract the consumer rather than to make demands on your disciple or your parishioner. And in a buyers market, how can we reach out to you and what are your needs what are your felt-needs? And we need to appeal to those kind of things. There is some wisdom to thinking about what are the needs of my audience but if you in that process end up short shrifting essential things, upon which Christianity is founded upon. Then if you change the Gospel, tailor it to your audience, that’s where the problem comes.

Shane Rosenthal is our guest we’re talking about Silicon Valley hipster church, C3SV. When we come back we going to talk a little bit more about this hipster church. Yes they’re just doing what Bill Hybels and Rick Warren started but you know, to their credit, at least in the early days Hybels and Warren kept the essence of Christianity. Why was it inevitable that it would be lost? If you kept running the ball down that field?

Shane we were talking before the break about how this is, in a lot of ways, a continuation of the mega church movement, the seeker-driven movement, was it inevitable that although I don’t think that either Hybels or Rick Warren or any of the other progenitors of the church growth movement or the seeker-driven movement would have wanted it this way, was it inevitable? That Christianity be forfeited eventually? If you are going to take the seeker-driven model?

So I don’t know if it’s inevitable that Christianity as a whole, so I do think it’s inevitable that the form and structure of what should be a Christian Church was inevitable. For example you had in 2007 or 8, the Reveal study which showed the people at Willow Creek were essentially upset or feeling that they weren’t spiritually fed. They were, and these were the people who were invested in the organisation but they were feeling like “fortune cookie spirituality isn’t enough for us, we need meat”. And the people – the leadership said essentially people need to be self-feeders. We are here providing resources and we are trying to make these things attractive, and you know, come and get it! And we have all these different niche groups but basically it’s the “trough model”. That’s the way they think and when you compare this to the New Testament, do you know Jesus is very clear to the disciples that they are called to go and make disciples of all nations and teach them and baptise them.

You know, you have that language with Jesus and Peter, where Jesus tells Peter to feed the sheep, tend the sheep regularly, there at the end of John’s Gospel. So this is something that is the lifeblood of the church. It’s not just putting teaching there on a website although that’s something you and I do on our respective ministries. But we…basically, the life blood of the church is the care of actual pastor/shepherds who are not just teaching but also caring for the sheep individually and then making sure they are being discipled over the long haul, repenting of sin and being baptised and being confronted with various issues. That’s the kind of thing that’s not well done in one of these settings where it’s just “come you all and get it”. Because as I was a member of one of these churches when I just converted to Christianity, you know you can just slip in and out of these places without being cared for or being recommended for baptism or anything. It’s just “hey come on and get it” and that’s where this kind of a church with a particular call to “let’s have a big church with rap music and lots of kickstart videos, it’s just the same trajectory which, you know, is not going to be the kind of church, an ecclesiastical structure that Jesus actually founded.

There’s a section here in the “buzz feed” story that I want to read to you and I ask you what this means exactly. Smallcombe is the name of the pastor there at C3SV. Smallcombe’s response to questions about the church’s stance on homosexuality was evasive, quote: “There’s a big difference between to approve of it, acceptance and approval, he said I might not approve of somebody’s lifestyle but I don’t need to approve of it if I’m at a dinner table with them, having a conversation. What I’ll do if they invite my perspective in, I’ll tell them what I believe and what I see the Bible’s position is love them. I fundamentally love them, love people if they never change. Not coming out in support of gay marriage is a position I said, writes the reporter. Smallcombe replied, that his position was love.

What was the pastor of this Silicon Valley church saying there?

That I don’t know, I think the reporter was right it’s a little bit evasive. He is essentially saying somethings that I would agree with, we want to love the sinner no matter what their background is. If they are, if they have a problem with gambling, cheating on their spouse or homosexuality. Hey the church is a hospital for sinners and I’m going to reach out for you and be there for you and care for you as you’re thinking about the faith. As you want to dialogue about the faith, as you want to become baptised and become a disciple of the faith. On the other hand the pastor of the church, representatives of Christ’s flock, are called to speak out Law and Gospel very clearly. And in the case of homosexual marriage? Well, you don’t have to agree with everything that Jesus said but you do have to come to terms with the fact that Jesus and his disciples, you know, were not for sexual immorality, they did not, so either take it or leave it. This is what Christian ministers are called to do. They’re called to put forth the commands and the gospel proclamations of Christ. Now that is hard teaching in our day but this is the problem when you are looking at the culturally relevant ministry. You know what, it’s not relevant to where people are at, to give hard teachings, give the difficult stuff, to give the Law and to give the harsh judgemental tone. And yet a lot of that is in the Bible, what are you going to do?

One of the catchphrases of the Silicon Valley church is, “Don’t like religion? Great, neither do we”. What is that saying, what is that sales pitch about?

So it’s interesting, if you look at the end of the article, which I really encourage your listeners to read, there’s a person there at the end, a non-Christian interacting with a member of this church and they fundamentally thought that was false advertising. Do you know if you don’t consider yourself religious, you shouldn’t call yourself a church. And the fact is I agree with that guy, I agree the non-Christian that it’s false advertising. Christianity is a religion, one of the major religions of the world. Now one of the typical lines in our day is, in order to attract people who are coming from a perspective of being burnt-out on religion, we are not offering a religion, we are offering a relationship. Yes but a relationship with whom? With Jesus of Nazareth is not just a nice teacher from the past but actually God in human flesh, died, buried, risen again from the dead. Well frankly that’s religious dogma, it’s either true or it’s not true but it’s religion! So to call it not religion is just fundamentally false advertising in order to appeal to those who have been burnt out on religion. But it’s also a little bit true, in that they no longer have, as I mentioned in the beginning of the interview, that Harry Blamires had talked about. There is very little discussion of baptism, of regeneration, of atonement and of all these things that are classically identified with the Christian religion. Which makes it seem like it’s kind of a true statement.

With about 30 seconds here, these are churches often strongly Image driven, kind of the hipster image, the right haircut, and fashion. Does that, what does that say about these hipster churches?

So there is a..it’s basically called “cool hunting”, and this is the thing. If you’re going to sell a product on television, you can’t be wearing outdated clothes. You’ve got to look cool, you’ve got to look hip for it to be attractive. And they are basically applying that idea into their sales pitch, to their web marketing, to everything they do visually. And the fact is it works. The question we need to all ask, is not what works though. The question we need to ask, are we deemed faithful to our tradition, is our tradition being sold out and exchanged for a mess of pottage. And at the end of the 20th century, at the beginning of the 21st-century we have to realise that there is a, you know, the messengers of the Christian tradition are infected with the disease of secularism. We are propagating secularism from our pulpits. And that’s why secularism is on the rise – partly it’s because the people who are speaking, you’d think you’d go to a church and you are going to hear the transcendent message from the transcendent Kingdom but you’re not. You’re hearing how to live a happy life and how to be a better you.

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