Kenny G is not a jazz great; the best you can say about him is that he is in the jazz section. But that's Metheny all right; several years ago he made a similar high profile denunciation of Kenny over a recording he made overdubbing himself onto a Louis Armstrong track, which to anyone who cares about jazz is like painting yourself into the Mona Lisa.

Michael McDanial

03-22-2010 09:13 PM

Re: Metheny, Kenny G, and other Jazz greats

Kenny G and his music can be a very touchy subject in the jazz community. I don't care for his music, but I don't hate the guy. However, the guy is not a jazz musician. The only reason he is categorized as a jazz musician is because he plays a saxophone. If he was playing the same music that he's playing now, except playing it on a guitar I don't think that anybody would be categorizing him as a jazz musician. His music isn't jazz it's instrumental pop. A lot of jazz musicians can't stand him because his music has come to represent what jazz is in a lot of people's eyes, and his music isn't even jazz - it was just marketed as jazz.

A lot of people get turned off at the mention of jazz because they immediately think of that "boring Kenny G crap", as someone put it to me not too long ago when I mentioned I played jazz. They don't know who Charlie Parker, John Coltrane, Duke Ellington, Miles Davis, Lester Young, or Charles Mingus are. I think that's where the conflict comes in. If his music was never categorized as jazz then there wouldn't be this conflict. Jazz is such a wide spectrum from Louis Armstrong to Count Basie to Charlie Parker to Miles Davis to Django Reinhardt to John Coltrane to Ornette Coleman to Tito Puente, and on and on. But what do the vast majority of the public think of when they hear the word jazz? That 'smooth jazz' that hey hear on the radio.

A lot of people are very passionate about their music, and they do get defensive when just anyone thinks they can go and call themselves a musician of that genre. So when you have some other kind of music put under your genre strictly for commercial purposes, you're probably going to get a bit irritated.

I listen to a lot of Kenny G. , Mindi Abair, Pat Metheny et.al. In my opinion they are n't Jazz greats but very popular and good Smooth Jazz Artists. I am not big on Jazz but have my few favorites, and Smooth Jazz is a different ball game. To me it is a popular style of music played with instruments associated with jazz. I will be seeing Mindi on April 10th with possibly a meet and greet. If I get the chance I will ask her her opinion of the question.

awesometastic

03-22-2010 11:01 PM

Re: Metheny, Kenny G, and other Jazz greats

Quote:

Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD
(Post 679458)

I listen to a lot of Kenny G. , Mindi Abair, Pat Metheny et.al. In my opinion they are n't Jazz greats but very popular and good Smooth Jazz Artists. I am not big on Jazz but have my few favorites, and Smooth Jazz is a different ball game. To me it is a popular style of music played with instruments associated with jazz. I will be seeing Mindi on April 10th with possibly a meet and greet. If I get the chance I will ask her her opinion of the question.

If I may ask, what do you enjoy about Kenny G?

toddbishop

03-22-2010 11:45 PM

Re: Metheny, Kenny G, and other Jazz greats

Quote:

Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD
(Post 679458)

I listen to a lot of Kenny G. , Mindi Abair, Pat Metheny et.al. In my opinion they are n't Jazz greats but very popular and good Smooth Jazz Artists.

Pat Metheny doesn't belong in the same category as Kenny G, who really is a purely commercial artist. He's done his share of commercial stuff, but he's also made and played on some of the best jazz albums of the last 35 years, including some very challenging stuff like Song X and Zero Tolerance For Silence.

Pollyanna

03-23-2010 11:46 AM

Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Wow, Pat really didn't hold back there!

Todd, Kenny isn't purely instrumental pop; there's elements of jazz there in that he starts with a theme tune and then improvises before returning to the theme, e.g. Song Bird. If he's only in it for the money then he sure spent a lot of time practising to do it. He's a Grover Washington fan and I have no doubt that he's passionate about what he does.

What is not jazzlike is the lack of interaction between players; the rhythm section lays down the pavement and he solos over the top. He's a crossover artist with elements of both jazz and pop. The music is entirely safe in many adult circles. Inviting the boss and spouse or that important client over for dinner? Put on the Kenny G. A safer bet than some years ago when I had some elderly relatives over and my random collection of songs included Prince's You Sexy Motherf*. When it came on it precipitated a mad dash to change the disc. No mad dashes needed if you have Kenny G :)

Thing is, we musos live in a musical bubble and our tastes are often far removed from that of the average person, many of whom would describe Kenny's music as "beautiful" or "relaxing". We often look for edges because smooth is old hat to us, but less experienced listeners are only looking for the superficialities ... "oh, that's lovely". Kenny's music is like like one of those standard landscape paintings - absolutely standard and safe as milk.

Pat's wrong. There's plenty of music more stupid that that of Kenny G. Try the Top 40 any way of any week.

willieboy_sf

03-23-2010 05:37 PM

Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pollyanna
(Post 679642)

Inviting the boss and spouse or that important client over for dinner? Put on the Kenny G.

Only if I want my boss or my client to think that I have no taste and no ears. Actually, they would think it was a joke and would probably laugh their asses off.

oops

03-24-2010 03:38 AM

Re: Metheny, Kenny G, and other Jazz greats

Quote:

Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD
(Post 679458)

I listen to a lot of Kenny G. , Mindi Abair, Pat Metheny et.al. In my opinion they are n't Jazz greats but very popular and good Smooth Jazz Artists. I am not big on Jazz but have my few favorites, and Smooth Jazz is a different ball game. To me it is a popular style of music played with instruments associated with jazz. I will be seeing Mindi on April 10th with possibly a meet and greet. If I get the chance I will ask her her opinion of the question.

There's no way I'd ever put Kenny G and Metheny in the same category. Metheny has been on the leading edge of Jazz for 30 years, he's defined a sound and is definitely a legend of the jazz scene. Seriously, he's played with Ornette Coleman, Scofield, Joni Mitchell, Wayne Shorter, Herbie, Charlie Haden, Jim Hall, Roy Haynes, Dave Holland, the list goes on and on and on and on and on.

There's no way I'd ever put Kenny G and Metheny in the same category. Metheny has been on the leading edge of Jazz for 30 years, he's defined a sound and is definitely a legend of the jazz scene. Seriously, he's played with Ornette Coleman, Scofield, Joni Mitchell, Wayne Shorter, Herbie, Charlie Haden, Jim Hall, Roy Haynes, Dave Holland, the list goes on and on and on and on and on.

Thing is, Pat M has also played smooth jazz. Average listeners would consider them to be in roughly the same genre. Take away the background and listen - the music has a jazzy timbre, jazzy chords, it's smooth and it's easy to listen to. Think of all the music in all the different genres - from death metal to electropop to prog to blues etc and it's clear that the music of Kenny and Pat has many more similarities than differences. The closest neighbours often have the most bitter disputes.

I never heard his Satchmo overdub but that simply sounds like fun to me. I don't think a lack of reverence for an artist necessarily implies disrespect, just as imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. No doubt KG was aware of its commercial value, but a cut of royalties go to Stachmo's estate (or has copyright run out?) so who loses? I imagine it would spark curiosity about the original version in a new generation of listeners.

I don't own any Kenny G music but I really have no issue with him; I prefer his work to lots of other music. I really don't understand all the degree of animosity. Sure, the music is daggy but he ain't the first, won't be the last and definitely not the worst :)

GRUNTERSDAD

03-24-2010 04:47 AM

Re: Metheny, Kenny G, and other Jazz greats

Quote:

Originally Posted by awesometastic
(Post 679459)

If I may ask, what do you enjoy about Kenny G?

I have always like the sound of a saxophone. I only played it for one year, sixth grade, got tired of lugging a horn around bigger than me. My Dad played in college and and my son in Junior High School. I am not a bigger fan of any of the three I mentioned, and as I said I'm not a big Jazz fan but listen to a "smooth jazz" station which is mainly pop played on sax, and guitar. They play more Kenny G than Metheny so I am more familiar with his work.

Steamer

03-24-2010 05:40 AM

Re: Metheny, Kenny G, and other Jazz greats

Quote:

Originally Posted by oops
(Post 679944)

There's no way I'd ever put Kenny G and Metheny in the same category. Metheny has been on the leading edge of Jazz for 30 years, he's defined a sound and is definitely a legend of the jazz scene. Seriously, he's played with Ornette Coleman, Scofield, Joni Mitchell, Wayne Shorter, Herbie, Charlie Haden, Jim Hall, Roy Haynes, Dave Holland, the list goes on and on and on and on and on.

Thing is, Pat M has also played smooth jazz. Average listeners would consider them to be in roughly the same genre. Take away the background and listen - the music has a jazzy timbre, jazzy chords, it's smooth and it's easy to listen to. Think of all the music in all the different genres - from death metal to electropop to prog to blues etc and it's clear that the music of Kenny and Pat has many more similarities than differences. The closest neighbours often have the most bitter disputes.

I never heard his Satchmo overdub but that simply sounds like fun to me. I don't think a lack of reverence for an artist necessarily implies disrespect, just as imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. No doubt KG was aware of its commercial value, but a cut of royalties go to Stachmo's estate (or has copyright run out?) so who loses? I imagine it would spark curiosity about the original version in a new generation of listeners.

I don't own any Kenny G music but I really have no issue with him; I prefer his work to lots of other music. I really don't understand all the degree of animosity. Sure, the music is daggy but he ain't the first, won't be the last and definitely not the worst :)

Watered down meandering commercial pop in content musically speaking {content} sax noodling over a historic great track in jazz history DOESN'T make it right in my books ... Metheny nailed it from the get go in my books......

bobdadruma

03-24-2010 06:24 AM

Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

This argument has gone on since as long as I can remember.
I listen to Kenny, Pat, Monk, Benny, and hundreds of others.
Shouldn't there be a full spectrum of Jazz? Something for everyone!
We all have choice as far as what we listen to.
I don't see the reason for the bashing of Smooth Jazz artist by the "purest".
Its kind of like Catholics bashing Protestants.
A Porsche owner bashing a MG owner.
Sometimes it's nice to sit down to Sanborn and just relax.
Personally, I don't care what other people listen to.
I don't care what name marketing people give to a style of music!

Steamer

03-24-2010 06:36 AM

Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobdadruma
(Post 679981)

This argument has gone on since as long as I can remember.
I listen to Kenny, Pat, Monk, Benny, and hundreds of others.
Shouldn't there be a full spectrum of Jazz? Something for everyone!
We all have choice as far as what we listen to.
I don't see the reason for the bashing of Smooth Jazz artist by the "purest".
Its kind of like Catholics bashing Protestants.
A Porsche owner bashing a MG owner.
Sometimes it's nice to sit down to Sanborn and just relax.
Personally, I don't care what other people listen to.
I don't care what name marketing people give to a style of music!

Only if life was so simple to people who take jazz music very seriously.

There's time to be politically correct and then there's a time to call the musical {if you can call it that that} BS when you see it IMO... Metheny nailed it #3 for me with my 2 cents on this matter.

That horrid KG sax solo over Armstrong added NOTHING but took away everything from the original content and musical intent...... enough said.

I have VERY strong opinions about this type of commercial gain but incredibly mediocre and shallow offerings in the name of "music" and ultimately $$$$ without any due {musical} respect for the true greats which came before and what on a much deeper level they brought to the table on the subject of jazz music.

That's my firm opinion and will remain unchanged on the matter. No wonder nobody has a clue what jazz is anymore... thank to the likes of KG who blure the waters over what the "real deal " jazz wise is to the average listener.

Pollyanna

03-24-2010 10:01 AM

Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobdadruma
(Post 679981)

This argument has gone on since as long as I can remember.
I listen to Kenny, Pat, Monk, Benny, and hundreds of others.
Shouldn't there be a full spectrum of Jazz? Something for everyone!
We all have choice as far as what we listen to.
I don't see the reason for the bashing of Smooth Jazz artist by the "purest".
Its kind of like Catholics bashing Protestants.
A Porsche owner bashing a MG owner.
Sometimes it's nice to sit down to Sanborn and just relax.
Personally, I don't care what other people listen to.
I don't care what name marketing people give to a style of music!

I agree, Bob. It's music that caters for a particular audience. Retailers have to place the music somewhere. Clearly they have found that the jazz section yields the best results in terms of finding the target audience. So it gets called "jazz".

What the public wants is often NOT what we musicians want to play. There's a tension between musicians with specialist tastes and the public. How many musicians play one style to make a living and then have side projects that allow them to express themselves? Lucky Kenny - he happens to enjoy music that's highly popular! His hobby is his work.

Most times, whenever we want to stretch out or move outside the box, we are punished - through lack of gigs, lack of sales or criticism. Stan, you know what it's like; if you play too intensely there'll be someone telling you that's you're not playing *proper* bop. As with much of life, there's always someone trying to squeeze you into a constricting box.

So you get someone like Pat Metheny who sees Kenny G horning in [sic] on his smooth jazz crossover niche in the market, simplifying it and lowering the bar musically. You'd expect Pat to be frustrated because it pressures him to dumb down his offerings to regain the share that Kenny is taking from him.

The problem is the crossover aspect of his audience, who don't notice the dumbing down and simply enjoy the increased focus and visceral appeal. The other problem is that women make up half the population and most of us have musical taste that ranges from the the insipid to the banal - lol

BTW, since chasing down that Song Bird link of Kenny's I've had the damn thing stuck in my head all day. Guess that partly explains his popularity :)

PS. None of this is "politically correct". It's just how things are. Nothing in life is ideal, including the music scene.

aydee

03-24-2010 10:35 AM

Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

...

I think what got Pat's goat was the fact that Kenny could 'imitate' ( read fake ) the art form of jazz, and put it out there for the millions who, like Polly says, would'nt know any better, and have it pass off as jazz. And this too off the shoulders of jazz icon and to rub salt on the wound, be commercially successful doing that.

As far as comparisons between the two go, a quick glimpse at their creds are quite revealing;

Kenny G- Has won 1 grammy. Recorded with Andrea Bocelli, Whitney Houston, Peabo Bryson, Toni Braxton, DJ Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince, Steve Miller (which marked the only time he appeared on a rock and roll album), Dudley Moore, Michael Bolton, and Celine Dion.

Here's the Wiki on the crux of the issue:-
Kenny G's 1999 single, "What A Wonderful World" was criticized by the jazz community regarding the overdubbing of Louis Armstrong's classic recording. A common criticism was that a revered recording by an artist such as Armstrong known especially for improvisation should not be altered and especially not by a musician such as Kenny G whose contributions to jazz were already in question. Jazz guitarist Pat Metheny responded to this recording by saying, "With this single move, Kenny G became one of the few people on earth I can say that I really can't use at all — as a man, for his incredible arrogance to even consider such a thing, and as a musician, for presuming to share the stage with the single most important figure in our music.

Also from Wikipedia: Kenny G has stated that all the proceeds from "What A Wonderful World" go to his Kenny G Miracles Foundation which "funnel(s) the money to charities to purchase musical instruments and to supplement funding for the arts in schools."

Kenny is a bit of an outsider in the jazz scene and does his own thing. He probably just thought, "Hey, that would be fun!".

It looks to me to be one of those common faux pas where one has no idea how important something is to others until they blow up. I've done a million of 'em myself. Like the time I was at a dinner party and, being an instant coffee girl, just filled up the filter coffee jug to when people asked for more. I'm still being given heaps about that one 5 years later - lol

But I'll tell you what, I won't be doing that again and I doubt Kenny will do another Sachmo cover either. Never mind, lots more gaucheness where that came from.

How uncool is Kenny? Also from Wikipedia: He is also one of the original investors in the Starbucks coffee house chain. Hmm, maybe he is evil? :)

Polly aka Klutzes R Us

PS. A Kenny G joke ... Kenny walks into an elevator and says, "Hey! This place is really happening!"

keep it simple

03-24-2010 12:26 PM

Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

I fully understand the passionate defence of something that one believes has been desecrated, yet, it's the degree of venom that surprises me. The automatic assumption seems to be that the cover artist intended insult to the original and surely the only reason for such artistic folly must be financial gain. The flip side of the coin may be that the cover artist really believes they've done a good job, maybe even paid homage in some small way. I think it's highly presumptious of anyone to second guess another's motives when the accused doesn't have a reply on record.

Is it just possible that Louis Armstrong would have been pleased that someone of note, no matter how poorly in his peers opinions, covered his work with a resultant wave of popularity? I have noticed that followers of close to non secular music forms tend to be significantly more precious when it comes to perceived musical "infringement". That's understanderble, as such musicians also tend to be more passionate and single minded than others who have a wider genre appreciation. Jazz & death metal are unusual bed partners in this respect.

The Kenny G thing happens all the time, but it doesn't mean we have to unleash a hornets nest attack on each occasion. I find it perplexing that the jazz community feels someone of Lois Armstrong's stature actually needs defending. Surely his work speaks for itself. I'm left wondering if the same reaction manifests itself in the rock world. Take this iconic rock track as a recent example;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfUYuIVbFg0 Journey's "Don't stop believing". Not only a superb piece of writing, but vocals by arguably one of the greatest rock singers ever (very much so IMO).

Then along comes some very talented but obviously super commercially steered snotty nosed kids with this dream drippy version; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4-8_Z1E2hw
To a rock fan such as me, this ammounts to near heresy. To have the nerve to even think they could top such a vocal performance as Perry's is beyond belief. I note my prejudice and move on.

But hang on just one minute. Is the original artist that bothered? I think not. Has the new release attracted huge attention towards the original? Hell, yes. And let's not forget publishing protocol here. Journey, or the owners of their material had to approve the use of that material including a satisfactory review of the finished product. The owners of Louis Armstrong's material would also have given permission on the same basis. Surely, if some believe the Kenny G cover was purely motivated by commercial gain, it's the owners of Louis Armstrong's material who should be on the receiving end.

larryace

03-24-2010 04:59 PM

Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

When any artist bashes another artist...I tend to have a lower opinion of the guy doing the bashing. He might be a great musician, but great musicians can still have poor social skills. Art and expression are highly individual, and (ideally) shouldn't be subject to anothers moralities. Live and let others live. If you think it's tasteless, you have a right to your opinion, but to publicly bash an artist for a song....I think is equal to picking a fight. For no valid reason. It's childish. Personal expression shouldn't be forced to fit within a certain mold or we are all in trouble. OK so he tried something that failed in somes eyes. It's only art, it's not like it's an opressive and unfair law or anything. If you don't like it, change the channel, and stop complaining about anothers vision. Get over yourself and do something positive, flesh out your own vision instead of cutting someone else's down. Kenny G has a right to be bland and tasteless. (Not my opinion, I don't have one on Kenny,I'm just echoing the opinion of the percieved status quo) He's not hurting anyone. It's just soundwaves. Mind your own business. I don't care how much Pat has done, he has no right to say what Kenny should and shouldn't do, just like no one has the right to tell Pat what to play. Grow up.

Steamer

03-24-2010 06:47 PM

Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Some here seem to have missed the whole point on a more serious level so I give up since I don't play the game of turning the filter and edit button off and calling into the mix the "everything goes" card as a lame reason for allowing in mediocre offerings in the name of "music" to be acceptable. The word "respect" for the intent of the original musical offering by Mr Armstrong certainly also plays into this from mine and obviously Pat Metheny's take on the horrid KG "interpretation" in question under fire.

And no its not a case of snobery folks why I state this its knowing what's is clearly "musical" BS and simply a money making marketing ploy and what has any true depth and meaning from a musical perspective in contrast. As you grow and learn as a musician and a listener alike the filter and edit button gets better "tuned" the deeper you listen and gain knowledge and wisdom on the art of all things that we call music.

KG is like the fast food watered equivalent to music for those wanting a easy quick fix on the ears without any real substance that taste okay for the first 5 minutes but leaves a real bad tastes in your mouth about 20 minutes later......

Arguing the "everything goes" card STILL doesn't make it right folks. Opinion unchanged on this matter as you may have already guessed.....

Strangelove

03-24-2010 07:24 PM

Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Kenny G overdubbing Satchmo is the most disturbing news I have heard recently. Is nothing holy anymore to those seeking to profit? I will go beyond agreeing with what Metheny said about him. I think he should be physically beaten and whipped. I'm still waiting for the clown circus at the R & R Hall of fame to induct that nitwit.

Pollyanna that is hilarious the story of Sexy MF getting into your mix. My wife loves that song, too and karaokes to alot of Prince's songs. She used to drive from the Omaha Indian reservation in Nebraska all the way to Minneapolis to see him perform in the early days. She would ditch me for him in a heartbeat.

larryace

03-24-2010 07:51 PM

Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steamer
(Post 680154)

KG is like the fast food watered equivalent to music for those wanting a easy quick fix on the ears without any real substance that taste okay for the first 5 minutes but leaves a real bad tastes in your mouth about 20 minutes later......

.....

But he still has a right to do it, and some people may even like it, even if they aren't as musically literate as others. It's not right dictating what others should and shouldn't do, and what should be considered right and wrong. One's wrong is anothers right. If there was no "bad" music, then there wouldn't be anything to compare the "good" music to. No one has the right to declare what is musically tasteful and what is not, except to themselves. I never even heard the Kenny/Armstrong thing, I don't have to. Whether I like it or not is irrevelant. But I will defend his right to do it, for whatever reason. If he is doing it for a cash grab, then those in the know will understand that and not buy into it. Those who don't like it won't be helping Kennys bottom line. Those who like it but don't get the money grab thing still have a right to enjoy it, those who like it AND get it, but don't buy it because it's a money grab are hypocrites. Surely we don't want musical censorship do we?

Deltadrummer

03-24-2010 08:15 PM

Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pollyanna
(Post 680043)

PS. A Kenny G joke ... Kenny walks into an elevator and says, "Hey! This place is really happening!"

LOL. I think that says it in a nutshell.

My dad liked Kenny G but I never had any use for him except for Christmas presents. Then it was Andrea Bocelli and then Chris Botti. They parade these folks about the middle class. I think it's Celtic Thunder now. Is there anything more lame then a bunch of mediocre singers, singing worn out tunes? And that 'Josh Groban' tune is Danny Boy with new lyrics; but he sells millions.

I did try to turn my dad onto to Blue Note, Louie, Brubeck or Coltrane; but he just didn't like it. He always liked muzak too and would blast that stuff Sunday mornings. We called in dentist office music because you always heard it in dentists' offices; and of course dentists had the highest suicide rate at that time. Perhaps it was the music.

The bottom line is Kenny G is not jazz. It is soft, instrumental pop. So it you're out there making jazz and trying to do something interesting and innovative with the music as Metheny has been for almost forty years, and you have this guy, any guy or girl, being called a great jazz musician and commercializing on the work that the greats have done, it is your duty to say "hey, you know this is BS. Listen to some real jazz." People love that Armstrong rendition, which was featured in Good Morning Viet Nam and became a a big hit again. It is lame to commercialize it in this context.

KIS
I actually like the rendition of the Journey tune. It pales in comparison to Steve. Everything is down an octave.lol It's hard to ruin a great song. I just learned that groove this weekend. It's a nice one.

DrumEatDrum

03-24-2010 08:39 PM

Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael McDanial
(Post 679420)

A lot of people get turned off at the mention of jazz because they immediately think of that "boring Kenny G crap", as someone put it to me not too long ago when I mentioned I played jazz. They don't know who Charlie Parker, John Coltrane, Duke Ellington, Miles Davis, Lester Young, or Charles Mingus are. I think that's where the conflict comes in. If his music was never categorized as jazz then there wouldn't be this conflict. Jazz is such a wide spectrum .

All true. But such limitations are not limited to jazz.

Look how many posts blow off metal as nothing but "Loud guitars with some guy screaming "hail satan"" without realizing there are 101 variations of metal, some of which have the complexity and sensitivity of other forms of music.

Or how many people blow off all country as the bland twangy pop music on the radio, without looking at someone like Johnny Cash is also considered country.

Most of my generation was brought up that classical is boring back ground music to put on at nap time when in pre-school, yet the 1812 Overture would never qualify as nap time music.

Or the kids who think The Who are just that band that does the CSI theme songs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pollyanna
(Post 679962)

Thing is, Pat M has also played smooth jazz. Average listeners would consider them to be in roughly the same genre.

This is also true. No matter how cutting edge, no matter how many legit traditional artists he may have played with, Metheny has his share of songs that could be considered "smooth jazz" as well. Maybe the fans can tell the difference, but the average non-musician isn't going to hear it as different as apples and oranges.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aydee
(Post 680028)

...

As far as comparisons between the two go, a quick glimpse at their creds are quite revealing;

Metheny - Has won 17 grammys.

Kenny G- Has won 1 grammy. ..

Comparing Grammy's tends to weaken the argument. Year after year the Grammy's tend to go to sugary pop hits of top 40 radio over better artists, at least in most other catagories. They occasionally get it right, but not often.

Miles Davis only has two Grammy's from his pre 1980 material.

And yet people who don't even write their own music, or one case, didn't even perform on their own albums, get Grammy's on a regular basis.

larryace

03-24-2010 08:42 PM

Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Wow the amount of venom I'm seeing is disturbing.
Beaten, whipped?
Call me what you may, but championing hate is worse than what Kenny G did every day of the week.

GRUNTERSDAD

03-24-2010 09:08 PM

Re: Metheny, Kenny G, and other Jazz greats

Quote:

Originally Posted by toddbishop
(Post 679479)

Pat Metheny doesn't belong in the same category as Kenny G, who really is a purely commercial artist. He's done his share of commercial stuff, but he's also made and played on some of the best jazz albums of the last 35 years, including some very challenging stuff like Song X and Zero Tolerance For Silence.

I guess when I hear them on the same station I tend to lump them together. That is my fault or ignorance. But for one artist, regardless of genre, to call another's garbage is just wrong. If you don't like it don't listen.

Steamer

03-24-2010 09:31 PM

Re: Metheny, Kenny G, and other Jazz greats

Quote:

Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD
(Post 680210)

But for one artist, regardless of genre, to call another's garbage is just wrong. If you don't like it don't listen.

It's what KG did with the Armstrong track that is clearly WRONG on more levels than I care to cover here effecting many areas of music and music education, music appreciation etc.... It's not about hate or musical snobery it's all about what is right and wrong and calling BS simply musical BS when you see and hear it. Thank god my filter and edit button still work and i'm not afraid to call it like I see it or worse group everything together under the friendly wider "whatever goes" "you're okay, i'm okay" politically correct banner I see so sadly these days. Nobody is willing to stand up for what they believe anymore with conviction...if they do they get branded as "haters" missing the whole point of why they believe passionately in what and why they have some firm opinions which is for the love of the music and the respect and appreciation for the greats that brought it to the table before them.

If in this example it sucks, it sucks plain and simple and if its sappy cheesy commercial intent diminishes the beauty of the original version with its meandering sugar coated sax crap then it sucks plain and simple for me and my ears and musical experience.

Straight shooter calling it as I SEE IT.......other's are entilted to THEIR opinion...... that's clearly mine on the subject with no lack of conviction on my part in the matter.

con struct

03-24-2010 10:01 PM

Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

I don't know. I think Louis Armstrong singing "Hello Dolly" was pretty rotten, and I fail to see how it has any artistic merit whatsoever, although
I'm sure that Armstrong made a lot of money from it. And I'm pretty sure that Kenny G got permission from the Armstrong estate to use the recording of "Wonderful World."

Now don't get me wrong, I can't stand Kenny G or any of that user-friendly white-wine-and-cheese smooth jazz vanilla pudding music. But it seems to me that the people who are keeping alive the controversy about Kenny G dubbing his sax onto a Louis Armstrong track, and not even a good one at that, are the same people who are the most outraged about it. Nobody else even remembers it. It's something best forgotten about, isn't it?

Anyway, Kenny G isn't taking any work away from, say, Greg Osby, so who cares what he does?

keep it simple

03-24-2010 10:45 PM

Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Just to steer slightly away from Abe's OP for a moment (please forgive me), but related IMO, am I the only one who thinks jazz has an accessibility issue? Also applies to metal and other "special interest" music genres. I'm hearing things like "Kenny G is only classified as a jazz muso because he plays a sax" and X isn't a real jazz muso but Y is. I genuinely, I mean genuinely have nothing against Jazz as a music form but on one hand I'm told that jazz is a broad church and on the other, I see rigid boundries set in stone. I admit to being utterly ignorant on the subject and somewhat confused. What is jazz? What is "real" jazz? I'd love it if someone could answer that for me in terms my under utilized brain can comprehend. I assume someone can enlighten me, otherwise how can anyone state that the material of a certain artist isn't real jazz.

I also hear jazz musos stating that jazz is reducing in popularity. Does the forum think that just might be due to vociferous defence of the pure form coupled with identity confusion? Please don't send plagues of locust to my house or unleash the wrath of the almighty 28" ride cymbal. I'm really not jazz bashing here, nor wishing to start WW3, I'm genuinely interested in members thoughts & explanations.

Deltadrummer

03-24-2010 11:09 PM

Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

If you go down the accessibility line then you have to blame guys like Monk, Parker, Miles, Cotrane or Bill Evans. Jazz was popular in the, 1920s, reaching its peak in the late 1930s and 40s. In the fifties you still had popular jazz artists but it was mostly the singers, Louis Jordan, Ella, Sinatra, even Louie Armstrong who maintained popularity. In 1959 you had Take Five, which was a big hit but rock and roll took the mainstream by storm with surf rock, the British invasion, youth culture and the counter culture. That became the popular, accessible music of the time. But much great jazz was still being created.

Are you really going to chastise Wayne Shorter, Metheny and Chick Corea for not having a top ten hit or diminish something because of its lack of popularity? Like wise I wouldn't diminish Herbie Hancock because he has. When you go down the line of diminish music because of its accessibility, you define everything with value through its commercialism. As wonderfully ideological it is to believe that the free market takes care of everything, it doesn't.

Strangelove

03-24-2010 11:21 PM

Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Yes, anybody who is worshipped by my ex-wife should be beaten and whipped.

Big Foot

03-24-2010 11:25 PM

Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Louis Armstrong was the Kenny G of his time for a good 20 years of his career. His jazz peers were less then in pressed w/ his selling out.

bobdadruma

03-24-2010 11:29 PM

Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

I often listen to smooth jazz when Im at work. Its background music that doesn't distract me. It simply sets a mood that allows me to think about what I am doing and not the music.
It has simple flowing melodies and back beats. There is a moderate amount of syncopation. There are seldom lyrics to mess up the mood.

It flows along like a river in its own way. It blocks out the noise of the shop and the stupid distractions like the PA system and conversations that I don't want to hear.

Smooth Jazz is like driving an MGB. It has No power, No great performance, Not much handling and Braking, It's a forgiving sports car that I can drive slowly with the top down while I smoke my pipe and relax.

Real jazz is like driving a Porsche. You have to power it into the turns as if you were Storming Poland during a Blitzkrieg! You cant wait to depress the accelerator and let the turbo spool up while you power shift into second gear.
You know that if you make one mistake you will wind up spinning around and hitting a guard rail! On the edge at all times!

Deltadrummer

03-24-2010 11:47 PM

Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Foot
(Post 680250)

Louis Armstrong was the Kenny G of his time for a good 20 years of his career. His jazz peers were less then in pressed w/ his selling out.

I was waiting for some one to bring that up. It's like Miles in the 1980s. obviously there is a huge difference in the caliber of musicianship between a Miles or Armstrong. How many musical movements did each actually inspire? there is also Wes, who Metheny emulates and was criticized for his commercialism. I really don't like Metheny's stuff from the late 1980s. But n his own way, Metheny helped to shape and mold smooth jazz so I think that gives him the right to state his opinions about it.

larryace

03-25-2010 12:03 AM

Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

I know very little about jazz as a genre. All I know is what I feel.
I am listening right now to the song in question, "What a wonderful world".
FWIW, here's my impressions of this song as a person who is very unknowing about jazz.
This is the first time I heard it.
First off it's not jazz in my book, it's a melodic ballad. Forgive my ignorance if this actually considered a jazz song.
If I could critique Kennys playing, I'd say it was elementary. He just stuck basically to the melody with a few flourishes. In the beginning he didn't step on the vocals, but at the end he stepped all over the vocalist, just doubling the melody basically, which I thought was ameteur sounding in that particular instance, like he could improve upon the vocal....His "solo", was just the embellished melody, no artistic contribution whatsoever. It's kind of laughable really. But as a musician, it's not something I'd personally get upset over. Now if Kenny G erased the original masters and replaced them with his version then that's something different altogether.
I couldn't stand Pat Boones rape and pillaging of Little Richard's "Tutti Frutti" either, but I don't want to hurt him. I just laugh at him, because he's such a dork. Kinda like I'm laughing at Kenny G right now. What he did to that great song is a joke. But I still defend his right to do it. If it sucks, the "artists" just dig their own graves anyway. If the people like it, then they're probably a musically unenlightened audience anyway and probably won't ever get good music. Water seeks it's own level. I'm not trying to change any minds here, I'm just stating my opinion, and I don't think any less of anyone for disagreeing with me.

con struct

03-25-2010 12:25 AM

Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltadrummer
(Post 680256)

I was waiting for some one to bring that up. It's like Miles in the 1980s. obviously there is a huge difference in the caliber of musicianship between a Miles or Armstrong. How many musical movements did each actually inspire?

Louis Armstrong is the fountainhead of jazz. His importance to the music cannot be overstated.