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Could it be that after all these years aiki is actually, finally being mentioned in an "IP/IT/IS" thread?! By an "IP/IT/IS" proponent no less!

This is admittedly off topic, but I have never liked the use of terms such as "our internal" as used above. What is it that is being used? It requires further explanation and/or specification, and frankly, it's lazy.

Having said that, Cady, can you do this? Please, describe this skill in more depth. How does it manifest? How do you use it? Why is it important? And . . . whatever else you want to talk about.

Hi Michael,
First, "our internal" was not the complete phrasing; it was a typo. I'd think it would occur to everyone that "we can use our internal manipulate" is a weird configuration, as probably none of us have ever heard the word "manipulate" used as a noun. I was typing rapidly, but my keyboard glitched and the keys didn't connect as I typed "manipulation of structure." By the time I noticed it, the editing time had expired and I figured I'd post something later. Thanks so much for supposing that I'm lazy. I prefer to think that I'm just preoccupied with other things right now.

Second, the "manifestation" is in the heightening of your sensitivity to "listen" with your body to what your opponent or partner is doing with his body. There is no tension in whatever you are using to make a contact point with your opponent. If your muscles are relaxed but not limp while you are maintaining your internal structure, then you will be able to feel even the slightest change or shift in your opponent and you'll be able to tell which way he is going to move. Even if he thinks he isn't shifting weight, changing angles or winding up, if he doesn't have a connected body he will have to shift something in order to move. A "connected" person can feel it. When you thus feel where the gap or weakness is in the opponent's structure, you apply aiki and whatever martial waza is appropriate to the moment.

When we discussed intent, and I mentioned that before intent is desire -- a wordless sense that triggers intent -- often another person can detect this desire-to-intent in another individual, even before the individual himself realizes it. There is a firing chain of "events," and you can feel the cues. Very experienced practitioners can even see those slightest-of-shifts in a person who desires, but whose cognitive mind has not yet realized.

What use is it? It's useful for tactical and strategic martial applications for whatever martial art you practice.

I can physically do this with someone who does not train IP/aiki, and I can "read" what he is going to do when there is at least one point of physical contact. This is not because I'm anything special, but because that's just one of the strengths of IP and aiki compared to the conventional way of moving the body (which represents the bulk of the martial arts training in the world).
Peers with whom I have equal skills, if they have greater body mass than I they will prevail over me IP-wise, but I may be able to read them if I "get there first" with my awareness.
As for those IP/aiki practitioners who are my senior in skill, I would not even pretend to believe that I could trump their skills unless they are distracted or having a bad day. I'll just have to keep on training.

My original comment was just a reaction to the "we do that too," a tiresome red flag which was later explained as having been a joke. I figured out that the poster trains @ ADV, where, IIANM, a certain IP/aiki "special someone" has been coming fairly regularly to teach, hence my encouragement to "carry on."

Hey, I apologize for any misunderstanding and perceived presumptions. Now, could we all lighten up and move along?

Hi Ron,
Not sure what you'd expect to see in a clip. Do you ever get to Boston?

Actually Cady there's a lot that can be gleaned by just watching someone move. You have on more than one occasion referenced Sam Chin as good source material, so I looked him up on youtube and watched some of his clips. While what he's demonstrating isn't Aikido by any stretch, I can see that his power, stability, balance etc. are generated and maintained via a tight degree of mind/body coordination. That tells me that what we are discussing in the Internal Training in Aikido forum transcends any particular style.

I have also watched clips of Gleason and Ikeda and have experienced what George Ledyard has been working on first hand. Taking what I have seen and felt back to my own study of Aikido, I see many points in common even though the training methodologies may be different.

The highest level Aikido senseis I have had hands on experience with (S. Maruyama, S. Imaizumi and the late K. Toyoda) have all demonstrated what you would call IP/IS to a high degree. I know for a fact that Maruyama never went "outside" Aikido and surmise that Imaizumi and Toyoda both stayed within the fold also (tho' I'm open to correction there).

So while I'm not interested in taking up another art at this stage of my training I am mildly curious to observe what you folks do for exercises if only to see how they relate to what I'm doing within my own art.

Actually Cady there's a lot that can be gleaned by just watching someone move.....

The highest level Aikido senseis I have had hands on experience with (S. Maruyama, S. Imaizumi and the late K. Toyoda) have all demonstrated what you would call IP/IS to a high degree. I know for a fact that Maruyama never went "outside" Aikido and surmise that Imaizumi and Toyoda both stayed within the fold also (tho' I'm open to correction there).

Ron

Hi Ron,
If that's so, I feel they must in a way have had surpassed Tohei in this respect or the way you see IP/IS is somehow different from what I think Chris Li has pointed out via his translations. Tohei seemed to me not too different from very good technicians, admittedly very strong and always very relaxed. No "weird" power. Rather the epitome of natural movement....
Can't pin it down in words better and of course I might be wrong.

Hi Ron,
If that's so, I feel they must in a way have had surpassed Tohei in this respect or the way you see IP/IS is somehow different from what I think Chris Li has pointed out via his translations. Tohei seemed to me not too different from very good technicians, admittedly very strong and always very relaxed. No "weird" power. Rather the epitome of natural movement....
Can't pin it down in words better and of course I might be wrong.

Best,
Bernd

Probably best summed up as having pieces of the onion, but not the whole thing.

Maybe I am reading the intention of some posts wrong. I am hoping we have some unclear humor and this thread is not degrading into a bully IP thing.

As some of the thread drifts towards a validation of what is IP, I think criticizing posters for not publishing "sufficient" information about their understanding of IP is inappropriate. If the comments are a little too dry, let's clarify when we are joking.

There are previous posts on this topic, many posted by IP proponents no longer on this forum. There are current threads containing IP content. Now we need to see videos. Great. Ledyard and Gleason both have DVDs for sale in which they address basic introduction material. Better yet, attend a seminar. You call BS? Visit the man and check yourself. You'll either be right or wrong.

I think right now any discussion on this stuff sits under a cloud of judgment just waiting to find the "a ha" moment which someone will use to discredit IP [in their mind]. It takes a lot a courage to post on this topic. It takes a lot of thinking to articulate on a basic level what is happening. There is no conspiracy to withhold information. This is new and exciting stuff that changes every time I have a conversation with someone. You gonna bust my balls because I don't feel safe enough to publish my personal training notes for you to tear down?

If you don't believe this stuff, God bless you. The beauty of Aikiweb is there are several threads to which we can contribute. But I would much rather foster a community encouraging people working with AIki/IP to express what they are feeling and how they are progressing their understanding of what is going on. You think its BS? Fine, then post back what we do in all the other threads when people talk about the weird s$%t they do, "That sounds interesting. Good luck with your training." I do not enjoy sounding like my mother, but I think 6 directions is incredibly important to aiki and I do not want posters to feel intimidated in sharing what they have picked up...including me.

Hi Ron,
If that's so, I feel they must in a way have had surpassed Tohei in this respect or the way you see IP/IS is somehow different from what I think Chris Li has pointed out via his translations. Tohei seemed to me not too different from very good technicians, admittedly very strong and always very relaxed. No "weird" power. Rather the epitome of natural movement....
Can't pin it down in words better and of course I might be wrong.

Best,
Bernd

I never experienced Tohei first hand Bernd so I cannot voice an opinion regarding his Aikido. I have, however, experienced three of Tohei's most senior students and can attest that they each displayed power that belied their physical statures. I wouldn't call it weird since it simply seemed an outgrowth of their training.

Hi Michael,
First, "our internal" was not the complete phrasing; it was a typo. I'd think it would occur to everyone that "we can use our internal manipulate" is a weird configuration, as probably none of us have ever heard the word "manipulate" used as a noun. I was typing rapidly, but my keyboard glitched and the keys didn't connect as I typed "manipulation of structure." By the time I noticed it, the editing time had expired and I figured I'd post something later. Thanks so much for supposing that I'm lazy. I prefer to think that I'm just preoccupied with other things right now.

Cady,

Often times, like many of us, I need to watch how I come across in writing. The lazy wasn't directed at you specifically; I've frequently seen people refer to "internal" and "internals" and I have never liked it.

I actually have really appreciated your posts of late. I feel like you are being very forthcoming about your practice.

I'm interested in further discussing some things that were raised in our posts. Personally, I believe they are critical, and for some reason they seem to get avoided. But I think I'm going to take it to another thread, because it really is getting outside the scope of six directions.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki

Maybe I am reading the intention of some posts wrong. I am hoping we have some unclear humor and this thread is not degrading into a bully IP thing.

As some of the thread drifts towards a validation of what is IP, I think criticizing posters for not publishing "sufficient" information about their understanding of IP is inappropriate. If the comments are a little too dry, let's clarify when we are joking.

There are previous posts on this topic, many posted by IP proponents no longer on this forum. There are current threads containing IP content. Now we need to see videos. Great. Ledyard and Gleason both have DVDs for sale in which they address basic introduction material. Better yet, attend a seminar. You call BS? Visit the man and check yourself. You'll either be right or wrong.

I think right now any discussion on this stuff sits under a cloud of judgment just waiting to find the "a ha" moment which someone will use to discredit IP [in their mind]. It takes a lot a courage to post on this topic. It takes a lot of thinking to articulate on a basic level what is happening. There is no conspiracy to withhold information. This is new and exciting stuff that changes every time I have a conversation with someone. You gonna bust my balls because I don't feel safe enough to publish my personal training notes for you to tear down?

If you don't believe this stuff, God bless you. The beauty of Aikiweb is there are several threads to which we can contribute. But I would much rather foster a community encouraging people working with AIki/IP to express what they are feeling and how they are progressing their understanding of what is going on. You think its BS? Fine, then post back what we do in all the other threads when people talk about the weird s$%t they do, "That sounds interesting. Good luck with your training." I do not enjoy sounding like my mother, but I think 6 directions is incredibly important to aiki and I do not want posters to feel intimidated in sharing what they have picked up...including me.

That sounds interesting. Good luck with your training.

I don't want to harp on it, but this post should be directed as much to the proponents of "IP/IT/IS" as it should be to its supposed detractors.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki

I don't want to harp on it, but this post should be directed as much to the proponents of "IP/IT/IS" as it should be to its supposed detractors.

Michael, yes, I think as a general comment Aiki/IP tends to touch upon belief and curriculum, both topics being intimate areas that naturally create a sensitivity to criticism. The "you're not doing Aiki" comments can be off-putting when presented with apathy.

My comments were a little more specific to my perception of these threads and an expression of how I feel when debating whether I should post comments about my Aiki/IP training. When Dan teaches this stuff, you are on an emotional roller coaster. You experience what you are doing is in-effective, what he is doing is effective, you can see what he is doing, but you cannot do it yourself, then you accidentally do it right, he gives you some exercises and leaves. Seriously, you need like 12 steps to get over him. In our first seminar with Dan, he teased me because I went through these emotions visibly. This stuff is intimate and changes how you see aiki - one of the things I most appreciated about Dan was his ability to navigate all this s$%t with a smile, the criticism you needed to hear, and positive encouragement that makes you want to do it. To be clear, positive encouragement from Dan is something like, "you sucked a little less that time." Or, "That was less sh%^&ty." I respect that because all of my mentors share the same sensitivity to shattering your perception of what you thought you were doing.

In some respects, I believe the internal training is more intimate than external training. I can correct kata. Palm up? sure. More forward stance? Not a problem. Think about touching the wall, but don't move. What? Drop your pelvis. W\hat the f$%k is my pelvis and how does it drop? Don't babies cause that? You need the knowledge to understand how your body works, courage to try something that you have no idea how to do, and confidence your exposure is beneficial to your training. Standing for 10 minutes while believing you are training is tough.

To Ron's point, it seems to me thus far that there is a path to internalizing via external training. i.e. Practice kata for 10 years and your body will naturally start to make some movements differently. I think with good instruction and solid commitment this is a viable method of training. To be clear, it is not internal training, it is external training. Your internal development is a by-product of your external training. We have heard this bill of sale before with the polishing the mirror, victory over yourself, martial skill byproduct, etc. I have nothing against this teaching methodology. My observations are that it requires a competent instructor and significant commitment to training - I think both are in shorter supply today which means you have a smaller chance of actually getting it within a reasonable time period of training.

I think internal training is a more direct dissemination of curriculum. My observations thus far are that it requires a competent instructor and significant commitment to training. The difference I have seem is mostly in your ability to actually move with stability and power within a faster time frame.

In my exposure, the stuff is in aikido, it has just been striped from most of our exercises. I think within a period of time aikido instructors will be able to re-integrate aiki training into aikido and return the curriculum to its [more] original state. My opinion thus far on this stuff is a combination approach (surprise there). I think we need some external training to built a frame of reference and knowledge about our body. From that foundation I think the internal stuff has more meaning, sooner. In other words, if you can't make the shape of ikkyo, it is more difficult for me to help you do it better...

6 directions is one of those topics we looked at a few years back and starting spending some time researching. It was a key component in opening the door to start our transition from thinking externally to thinking internally. We started it from torifune. Ron wanted a video, I recorded this fall last year before I started doing any of the IP stuff - we were still ground pathing more that anything in this video. This was the progeny of a summer with some aikido people who were getting gooey. Its possibly difficult to tell, but all of the waza was instigated with a torifune movement, recession of the shoulders, expansion in the joints (active muscles, but not flexed), extended spine and the feeling of "sitting back onto a stool". Yes, we were putting some serious pressure into each other. We changed things significantly since getting into the Aiki/IP research, but this is a good example of what we were doing during our "groundpathing external structure conversion" period.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKpLAk-05BQ

Actually Cady there's a lot that can be gleaned by just watching someone move. You have on more than one occasion referenced Sam Chin as good source material, so I looked him up on youtube and watched some of his clips. While what he's demonstrating isn't Aikido by any stretch, I can see that his power, stability, balance etc. are generated and maintained via a tight degree of mind/body coordination. That tells me that what we are discussing in the Internal Training in Aikido forum transcends any particular style.

Ron, things can be gleaned from video if the viewer is experienced in what is being shown, and knows what to look for. For most, all that's seen is the effect, with no indication of what the cause is.
A video clip of someone working the "6 directions" would look like someone just standing there. If a partner were to push on the stander.... on the chest, on the back, on either shoulder, on a hip... what the viewer would see is the stander not budging or showing any signs of imbalance. And if the stander were to return the pusher's energy to him, you would see a person standing still, but the pusher getting popped or bounced back.
It wouldn't be very instructive in terms of how things are happening, though certainly the effects would interest people or cause them to say "That's fake!"

Thanks, Michael. I understand your intentions now.
Starting another thread is a good idea.

Quote:

Michael Varin wrote:

Cady,

Often times, like many of us, I need to watch how I come across in writing. The lazy wasn't directed at you specifically; I've frequently seen people refer to "internal" and "internals" and I have never liked it.

I actually have really appreciated your posts of late. I feel like you are being very forthcoming about your practice.

I'm interested in further discussing some things that were raised in our posts. Personally, I believe they are critical, and for some reason they seem to get avoided. But I think I'm going to take it to another thread, because it really is getting outside the scope of six directions.

A video clip of someone working the "6 directions" would look like someone just standing there.

Understood.

Quote:

Cady Goldfield wrote:

If a partner were to push on the stander.... on the chest, on the back, on either shoulder, on a hip... what the viewer would see is the stander not budging or showing any signs of imbalance. And if the stander were to return the pusher's energy to him, you would see a person standing still, but the pusher getting popped or bounced back.

That's something I can relate to. We have always done a lot of these types of exercises as part of Ki development work. We practice this stuff both stationary and in motion; the motion being both with feet not moving and the feet free to move about. Moving with stationary feet while being pushed gives rise to some interesting configurations of posture in which stability and balance must be maintained.

When returning energy to the pusher, the result is more akin to like poles of two bar magnets being brought together, repelling rather than popping or bouncing.

Quote:

Cady Goldfield wrote:

It wouldn't be very instructive in terms of how things are happening, though certainly the effects would interest people or cause them to say "That's fake!"

Thank you all for the great resources and food for thought so far! I've sat down to try and engage the topic more, but what I've had so far hasn't felt very well-formed and has generally been better said by others. However, in an effort to offer something rather than nothing:
Last night while practicing my evening solo work, I tried to remember anything that seemed to fit with the idea of generating intent and 6 directions. I had a lot of little half-formed ideas, but the main thing that came to my mind is what I've heard described as being between the moment of action and inaction.
I almost always begin whatever I do by trying to activate/induce tate musubi ("strong" vertical alignment/connection) in shizentai. I started deep breathing, channeling it as far down as I could muster, which caused a sense of stretching in the areas just above my hips...which is hard to maintain unless I'm breathing in, but I try. After a while this created a sense of an inner tube sitting on my hips. I was going for the creation of a distinct (more or less) ring to get a sense of being "full" in 360 degrees. I will then often raise (stretch/expand) and lower (release/settle) my tegatana(s) in an effort to settle my arms and torso before moving into kamae and starting over.
In between any movement though, I am always trying to generate intent by becoming familiar with the "space between action and inaction." It's a feeling of being on edge, but I'm as relaxed as I can muster.
Anyhow...my quick effort before going to practice the ancient art of Osoji! Have a great day everyone!

Ron, things can be gleaned from video if the viewer is experienced in what is being shown, and knows what to look for. For most, all that's seen is the effect, with no indication of what the cause is.
A video clip of someone working the "6 directions" would look like someone just standing there. If a partner were to push on the stander.... on the chest, on the back, on either shoulder, on a hip... what the viewer would see is the stander not budging or showing any signs of imbalance. And if the stander were to return the pusher's energy to him, you would see a person standing still, but the pusher getting popped or bounced back.
It wouldn't be very instructive in terms of how things are happening, though certainly the effects would interest people or cause them to say "That's fake!"

Things like that probably happen by "inadvertent activation". And training may be like building a strong belief system.
II still remember very well that very first short instant when a shihan, who previously had felt to me like over 90 kilogram, was on the verge to show koshi nage and was bounced back losing his balance, swaying, dark eyes wide open, instinctively asking "what was that". In fact there was nothing, no automatic body-response at all on my side, much to the surprise of both of us. I had done nothing to him, I just hadn't been ready to comply yet as, actually, I had been lost in an inner process I would describe as cheerily enjoying deep relaxation and a moment of conjoint inertia.
Delusion or not?
Isn't it only natural that everyone feels more than reluctant to write about this kind of experience openly on the net ?

Matthew, intent* is involved in 6 direction exercise. Phi , I thought it was up down front back , inwards outwards. not 6 sided dice orientation, but that is probably not going to make sense to people until it does.

Cady, Brett : I did my Aikido training at ADV from 98 to 2008, roughly, I passed my shodan exam in 2006 , Dennis Hooker and Fredric Rowell graded me. ADV is a school affiliated with ASU. I first felt "aiki" from Ikeda sensei around 98. People did not talk about aiki openly back then or now, because of uncertainty I think mostly. I started loooking into this around 2005 because of experiences at seminars with teachers of Aikido. My teachers were well versed in Aiki in the way that Michael Varin refers to it. But I also met other teachers like Henry Kono, that were doing unsual things which I wanted to learn more about.

I've spent most of my Internal Training time since 2006 on my own, on its own. It is very hard to learn to move all over again when you are doing something you have done well before. My training conisted of mostly standing and practicing 6 directions until I could develop enough to start teasing out the body logic.

While I was at ADV I lobbied for Dan to be asked over for many years. I am happy that he has made friends with my friends and my old teacher. My training though, is my own. I am putting together what I can based on the inescapable body logic that becomes available over time with practice. Mike Sigman has been very forthcoming.

I recorded this fall last year before I started doing any of the IP stuff - we were still ground pathing more that anything in this video. This was the progeny of a summer with some aikido people who were getting gooey. Its possibly difficult to tell, but all of the waza was instigated with a torifune movement, recession of the shoulders, expansion in the joints (active muscles, but not flexed), extended spine and the feeling of "sitting back onto a stool". Yes, we were putting some serious pressure into each other. We changed things significantly since getting into the Aiki/IP research, but this is a good example of what we were doing during our "groundpathing external structure conversion" period.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKpLAk-05BQ

how many times do i have to tell you that you can't manifest aiki/ip in 6 directions wearing aikido outfits? you just can't do it. it has to done with leotard. i just have to show you when i get to Atlanta. Also, your uke tanked for you. tell him, when i get there, i'll kick his other leg.

how many times do i have to tell you that you can't manifest aiki/ip in 6 directions wearing aikido outfits? you just can't do it. it has to done with leotard. i just have to show you when i get to Atlanta. Also, your uke tanked for you. tell him, when i get there, i'll kick his other leg.

NO MARTIAL ARTS ATTIRE, please. Andy had a bruise on the other side of his leg for like 3 days. It was like watching a guy catch his son's baseball bat in the crotch - it will always be funny.

What I mean is yes, "intent" is involved. And that is too vague; "intent" employed to what ends? This is not a mindlessness practice it requires focus towards a goal. The trick that worked for me is to focus on placing your weight and the solidity of the ground (gravity, GRF) on an area of your body. As you change the "directions" you can start to "feel" things in your body. And that is something that needs to be worked on and strengthened.