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MEET THE PRESS NBC NEWS (202)885-4598 (Sundays: (202)885-4200)

MR. TIM RUSSERT:Our issues this Sunday, our
Meet
the Candidates
2008
series continues. An exclusive interview with Democrat
Barack Obama
. He was elected
United States senator
in
2004
and served in the
Illinois state senate
for eight years prior. This morning
Barack Obama
joins us for the full hour and tells us why he should be the Democratic nominee for president of the
United States
.

And we continue our celebration of 60 years of
MEET THE PRESS
this morning in
Iowa
. Why? The caucuses are just
53 days
away, and here with us is
Senator Barack Obama
.

Welcome back to
MEET THE PRESS
.

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL):Thank you,
Tim
. Always great to be here.

MR. RUSSERT:The
Wall Street Journal
,
NBC News
went out and talked to viewers last week, asking them about the Democratic candidates, asking them to give marks, grades to the candidates. Likeability, this is what they said:
Obama
, 72;
Hillary Clinton
, 49, very
strong
grade. Then we asked knowledgeable and experience to handle the
presidency
:
Clinton
, 76;
Obama
, 41. These are members of your own
party
. Why are people in your own
party
skeptical about your knowledge and experience to be president?

SEN. OBAMA:Well, look at -- I have not been on the national scene as long as some of the other candidates in this race, and so part of our job throughout this
campaign
is to give people some sense of what I've done before I got to
Washington
; what I did as a
constitutional law
professor, as a
civil rights
lawyer, as a
state
legislator. And what we discover is when people actually find out my track
record
, they're pleasantly surprised. And so that's why our focus on the early states like
Iowa
and
New Hampshire
's been so important, because we can interact much more intimately with people and give them a sense not only about my track
record
but also my vision for the future.

MR. RUSSERT:Hillary Clinton
was first lady in
Arkansas
, first lady at the
White House
for eight years,
U.S. senator
for seven years. Can you compete with that?

SEN. OBAMA:Well, you know, if you're comparing how long I've been in
public office
, I've actually been in
public office
longer than her. I think that
Senator Clinton
is a capable and, and intelligent person. I think she's been a fine senator from
New York
. But when it comes to the issues that are really moving the
American people
right now -- healthcare, energy, how we deal with a shifting economy -- those are all issues that I've been working with at every level of government.

MR. RUSSERT:Mayor
Giuliani
said
Obama
,
Clinton
have never managed a city, managed a
state
, run a business, met a payroll. How can they possibly want the
top executive
job in the
country
?

SEN. OBAMA:Well, you know, I think I have shown through my legislative work my knowledge of the issues, my judgment and character, and those are the qualities that I think the next president is going to need. One of the things that I'm very
clear
about during the
course
of this
campaign
as I'm meeting voters all across the
country
is they don't expect the president to be the next chief operating officer. What they want is somebody who understands the struggles

they're going through, is going to be thinking every day about how to make their lives better, has a grasp of the issues that not only
Democrats
, but
Republicans
and independents are worried are not being attended to in
Washington
. And if I provide that kind of leadership, I think that they will feel confident that I'm going to be able to do the job.

MR. RUSSERT:Charles Rangel
, the Democrat from
Harlem
, very important in the
Democratic Party
, was giving an interview. And he said, "I don't think on-the-job training is going to be a great asset for the next president of the
United States
." Question: "That's what we would have to have with
Obama
?"
Rangel
: "Of
course
."

SEN. OBAMA:Well, look, the only real training for the
presidency
is the
presidency
. I mean, the fact of the matter is it's a unique job, and every president who's ever taken that job acknowledged -- acknowledges that that's the case. What right now I think the
American people
need is somebody who can bring the
country
together to overcome the gridlock that has become so pervasive in
Washington
. I think they need somebody who is
willing
to push against the
special interests
that have come to dominate the agenda in
Washington
. And maybe most importantly, what they are looking for is a president who can lay out in a honest and
clear
and convincing fashion what are the choices that we face? If we're serious about
climate change
, what does that mean in the lives of
ordinary people
? What
decisions
do we have to make, what costs and sacrifices are going to be involved? If we're serious about healthcare, how do we move a process
forward
that's transparent and accountable, so the drug and
insurance companies
aren't dominating the debate? Those are the questions I think people are going to be asking.

MR. RUSSERT:A year ago, you were asked about
Hillary Clinton
. And this the exchange."Where do you find yourself having the biggest differences with
Hillary Clinton
, politically?"
Obama
: "You know, I think very highly of
Hillary
. The more I get to know her, the more I admire her. I think she's the most disciplined -- one of the most disciplined people I've ever met. She's one of the toughest. She's got an extraordinary intelligence." "She is -- she's somebody who's in this stuff for the right reasons. She's passionate about moving the
countryforward
on issues like healthcare and children. So it's not
clear
to me what differences we've had since I've been in the
Senate
." Do you still hold to that? There aren't any differences?

SEN. OBAMA:Well, I think that I, as I said earlier, I have admiration for
Senator Clinton
. I think she's a fine public servant. The reason I'm running is because I think we're in a unique moment in
American history
right now. The nation's at war; our planet is in peril. We've got a series of
decisions
that we're going to have to make. And I believe that I can more effectively than any other candidate in this race bring the
country
together, overcome some of the same old arguments that we've been having since the
1990s
. I think I can reach out to
Republicans
and independents more effectively than any other candidate that...

MR. RUSSERT:What arguments do you want to put behind you?

SEN. OBAMA:Well, look, when we think about, let's say,
foreign policy
, we have had a tendency to, to argue along the spectrum of you're either a hawk or a dove. Either you're
willing
to engage in
military
action and oftentimes think
military
action first and diplomacy second, or you're a dove, you've got post-
Vietnam syndrome
, you're suspicious of any
military
action. I think that the way we have to think about it is to say that right now we live in a dangerous world. There are times where we're going to need to act militarily. We should not hesitate to act on

behalf of the
national interest
. But we have to understand that we've got more power than just the
military
at our, our disposal, and that's something, obviously, the
Bush administration
has forgotten.

Having the ability to focus on getting the job done, as opposed to getting embroiled in ideological arguments, which have become so common in
Washington
, I think, is going to be important for the next president, and that's what I intend to do as president.

MR. RUSSERT:You had an exchange with
The New York Times
. It says here, "In an interview,
Obama
said
Hillary Clinton
was deliberately obscuring her positions for political gain. Asked if she had been fully truthful with voters about what she should do as president, Mr.
Obama
replied, `No.'" On which issues has
Hillary Clinton
not been truthful?

SEN. OBAMA:Well, I think that what
Senator Clinton
's been doing is running what's considered a textbook
Washingtoncampaign
, and what that says is that you don't answer directly tough questions. You don't present tough choices directly to the
American people
for fear that your answers might not be popular, you might make yourself a target for
Republicans
in the
general election
. So on
Social Security
, for example, she has maintained, it appears, that if we just get our fiscal house in order that we can solve the
problem
of
Social Security
. Now, we've got 78 million
baby boomers
that are going to be retiring, and every expert that looks at this
problem
says "There's going to be a gap, and we're going to have more
money
going out than we have coming in unless we make some adjustments now." Now, I think that
Social Security
is the single most important
social program
that we have in this
country
, and I want to make sure that it's there not just for this generation, but for next generations. So that means that we're going to have to make some
decisions
, and it's not sufficient for us to just finesse the issue because we're worried that, well, we might be attacked for the various options we present.

MR. RUSSERT:But,
Senator
, you said last year -- earlier this year that everything should be on the
table
for
Social Security
, including looking at raising
retirement age
, indexing benefits, and then suddenly you said, "No, no. Those aren't off -- on the
table
; I'm taking them off the
table
."

SEN. OBAMA:Tim
, that's not -- that's not what I said. What I said was that I will convene a meeting as president where we discuss all of the options that are available. That doesn't mean that as president I will not have
strong
opinions on how we should move
forward
. And when you look at how we should
approachSocial Security
, I believe that cutting retire -- cutting benefits is not the right answer. I meet too many seniors all across the
country
who are struggling with the limited
Social Security
benefits that they have. That raising the
retirement age
is not the best option, particularly when we've got people who ware still in manufacturing. By the time they're 67, their bodies, oftentimes...

MR. RUSSERT:But in May you said they would be on the
table
.

SEN. OBAMA:Well, when I -- I am going to be listening to any ideas that are presented, but I think that the best way to
approach
this is to adjust the cap on the
payroll tax
so that people like myself are paying a little bit more and the people who are in need are protected. That is the option that I will be pushing
forward
. But, look, even as president I'm not going to be able to get this done by myself, and that means that I'm going to be listening to any other ideas out there. It doesn't mean, though, that I'm not going to have a
strong
position on it.

MR. RUSSERT:But they would be on the
table
?

SEN. OBAMA:Well, I will listen to all arguments and the best options, finding out what is it going to take to close that gap. But what I'm going to continue to insist on is that the reason we need to fix it now is precisely to protect our
senior citizens
and maintain not only
Social Security
as a
social insurance
program, but also make sure that the benefits are sufficient so that we don't have seniors in need.

MR. RUSSERT:When you say "raise the cap," right now you pay
payroll tax
on the first $97,500. If you increase that for people to pay
Social Security tax
on their full income, about
10 million
people, some could pay as much as $5,000 a year more. How is that going to play in November?

SEN. OBAMA:Well, it -- you know, I have not specified exactly how we would structure it. Conceivably, you might have the equivalent of a
doughnut hole
, although this one would be a good one, as opposed to the bad
doughnut hole
that
Bush
set up for, for prescription drugs where you have a gap between people who are of middle income and very wealthy people. But, look, I've, I've got a friend,
Warren Buffett
, you may know, the guy made $46 million last year. This is public information because he's concerned that he is paying a lower
tax rate
than anybody else in his office. And, you know, he has said, and I think a lot of us who have been fortunate are
willing
to pay a little bit more to make sure that a
senior citizen
who is struggling to deal with rising
property taxes
or rising heating bills, that they've got the coverage that they need.

MR. RUSSERT:So you would not be afraid to say, "We have a
problem
with
Social Security
, and I'm
willing
to raise taxes on some to help address the—to fix it."

SEN. OBAMA:I, I, I believe that it is important for us to look at all the options, but I think that the best option would be to make sure that those who are in the best position to help solve this
problem
are
willing
to do so.

MR. RUSSERT:A tax increase for some?

SEN. OBAMA:Well, tax increase for people like myself, probably.

MR. RUSSERT:When you say that
Hillary Clinton
hasn't been truthful, her
campaign
-- and others -- will say, "What happened to the politics of hope?" You said that you didn't want to make each other look bad, that you didn't want to divide the
country
, divide the
party
. Is it consistent to say
Hillary Clinton
's not truthful and still embrace the politics of hope?

SEN. OBAMA:Tim
, you know, the politics of hope doesn't mean hoping that people aren't going to point out differences between you and, and other candidates when it comes to positions. We have been consistent in not engaging in broadsides, not distorting people's
records
. Look, we're running for the
presidency
of the
United States of America
, not
student council
president. That means that the
American people
have a right to know what exactly we intend to do as president. And if I believe that one of my opponents is potentially going to take the
party
or the
country
in a direction that does not meet our challenges, does not take advantage of the opportunities that are available, I'm going to point it out.

MR. RUSSERT:Last night, the
Jefferson Jackson
dinner here in
Iowa
, you spoke, and this an -- a quick quote from your speech. Let's listen.

SEN. OBAMA:I am sick and tired of
Democrats
thinking that the only way to look tough on
national security
is by talking and acting and voting like
George Bush Republicans
.

MR. RUSSERT:"Talking and acting and voting like
George Bush Republicans
." Who's that?

SEN. OBAMA:Well, look, we know that too many
Democrats
, I believe, went along with
George Bush
when it came to the war in
Iraq
. In fact, of all the major candidates, I'm the only one who, in
2002
, opposed the war in
Iraq
. I am concerned about the latest moves that the administration has been making with respect to
Iran
. And when, for example,
Senator Clinton
supported the
Kyl-Lieberman
amendment that suggests that we should structure our forces in
Iraq
with an eye toward blunting the influence of
Iran
in that
country
, that is, I think, a wrong message, not only to the world but also to the region, where we should be pursuing direct diplomacy. And so, on a series of issues, what I believe is that the
Democrats
have not stood forcefully against
George Bush
, they have not been
clear
about what an alternative
foreign policy
strategy would be, and, unless we present as a
party
a different vision about how we would
approachnational security
, how we'd
approach
battling terrorism, I think that we are going to make ourselves vulnerable in the fall, and, more importantly, we're going to be doing a disservice to the
American people
.

MR. RUSSERT:You were not in the
Senate
in October of
2002
. You did give a speech opposing the war. But
Senator Clinton
's
campaign
will say since you've been a senator there's been no
difference
in your
record
. And other critics will say that you've not been a leader against the war, and they point to this: In July of '04,
Barack Obama
, "I'm not privy to
Senate
intelligence reports. What would I have done? I don't know," in terms of how you would have voted on the war. And then this:"There's not much of a
difference
between my position on
Iraq
and
George Bush
's position at this stage." That was July of '04. And this:"I think" there's "some room for disagreement in that initial decision to vote for authorization of the war." It doesn't seem that you are firmly wedded against the war, and that you left some wiggle room that, if you had been in the
Senate
, you may have voted for it.

SEN. OBAMA:Now,
Tim
, that first quote was made with an interview with a guy named
Tim Russert
on
MEET THE PRESS
during the convention when we had a nominee for the
presidency
and a vice president, both of whom had voted for the war. And so it, it probably was the wrong time for me to be making a
strong
case against our
party
's nominees'
decisions
when it came to
Iraq
.

Look, I was opposed to this war in
2002
,
2003
, four, five, six and seven. What I was very
clear
about, even in
2002
in my original opposition, was once we were in, we were going to have to make some
decisions
to see how we could stabilize the situation and act responsibly. And that's what I did through
2004
, five and six, try to see can we create a workable government in
Iraq
?

Can we make sure that we are minimizing the humanitarian costs in
Iraq
? Can we make sure that our
troops
are safe in
Iraq
? And that's what I have done. Finally, in
2006
,
2007
, we started to see that, even after an election,
George Bush
continued to want to pursue a
course
that didn't withdraw
troops
from
Iraq
but actually doubled down and initiated the surge. And at that stage, I said, very clearly, not only have we not seen improvements, but we're actually worsening, potentially, a situation there. And since that time I've been absolutely
clear
in terms of the
approach
that I would take. I would end this war, and I would have our
troops
out within 16 months.

MR. RUSSERT:Some involved in the anti-movement have said that in
2004
,
2005
,
2006Barack Obama
voted to fund the war. Every time there was a proposal to have a fixed date
withdrawal
you said no, it would be a
slap in the face
to the American
troops
, it may create bloodshed and more division, that American credibility was at stake, that you were not a leader in trying to stop the war until you ran for president and got to
Iowa
and got to
New Hampshire
and had a sense of the anti-war, war fervor in the Democratic base.

SEN. OBAMA:No.

MR. RUSSERT:Where was the leadership?

SEN. OBAMA:I, I, I disagree with that. You know, throughout I was a constant critic. The first hearing that I had was with
Condoleezza Rice
in the
Senate Foreign Relations Committee
. This was a few months after I had been sworn in as senator. And I told her at that point, we need to wind this war down. It is true that my preference would not be to end this war simply by cutting off funding. My preference would be for the president to recognize that we needed to
changecourse
, and that was what I continually pushed for. At the point where we realized the president was not
willing
to
changecourse
, I put
forward
a very
clear
timetable for when we should remove our
troops
. And, when that was vetoed, I then suggested that the only way to get the president to the
table
to negotiate how we're going to move in a different direction in
Iraq
is by not giving him a
blank check
when it comes to funding.

But, look, throughout this process my views have been consistent. The question has been, given the situation on the ground, how can I be most constructive not in scoring political points, but making sure that we have the best possible outcome after what I considered to be a tragic strategic
mistake
in the region.

MR. RUSSERT:But you have changed in your support now of
withdrawal
. You have changed now in your support of cutting off funding.

SEN. OBAMA:But I haven't changed in my opposition to the war. Look, you know, at the time when we were trying to convene a government in
Iraq
that would work, it was important, I think, for me and others who opposed the war to hope for the best possible outcome in
Iraq
. You know, I've never rooted against success in
Iraq
, I've just been skeptical that this was the right
approach
for us to take. I have also been very
clear
throughout about why this was such a strategic
mistake
. The president now is talking about the grave threat that
Iran
faces, and he's absolutely right that
Iran
is a serious threat if they develop
nuclear weapons
, their support of
Hezbollah
and
Hamas
. The biggest beneficiary of our invasion of
Iraq
has been
Iran
. And it gives some sense of why we've got to have a president in the
Oval Office
who's making
decisions
not based on

ideology, but based on knowledge of the region, based on the players that are involved, based on what's good for our long-term
national security
. And that's something that I believe I can provide as president.

MR. RUSSERT:I had asked you in one of the debates whether you'd make a commitment to have all American
troops
out of
Iraq
by the end of your first term, and you said you couldn't do that. You said you had to fight
al-Qaeda
, had to make sure there was not genocide, try to secure the
country
. How, how many
troops
do you envision would have to remain in
Iraq
for some time to come?

SEN. OBAMA:Here's what I'd do as president: We can get one to two brigades out per month safely. At that pace, we would have all our combat
troops
out in about 16 months from the time we initiate it. I would like to see it start now. It is not
clear
that that's possible, given
George Bush
's posture. But 16 months from the time we initiate it, we could have our combat
troops
out.

The only
troops
I would have in
Iraq
would have a very limited mission. Number one, to protect our embassy and our civilian,
diplomatic corps
. I don't want
Blackwater
to be providing that security; I want our
U.S. military
to providing -- to provide that security. I'm very skeptical about the use of private contractors when it comes to our
national security
. The only other mission, and this is a very narrow one, would be to engage in counterterrorism activity. If
al-Qaeda in Iraq
is reforming bases there, we should have the capacity to strike them. That would be it. Those would be the only
troops
that we would deploy.

MR. RUSSERT:How many would that be?

SEN. OBAMA:Well, you know, I'm going to leave that up to the, the commanders on the ground, because my job is to set a
clear
mission for them. Their job is to then tell me, "This is what we need to achieve that mission."

MR. RUSSERT:But, but -- yeah, but we have 165,000 there now. Are we talking 150,000?

SEN. OBAMA:There, there -- here's what I'll say,
Tim
. We will have the vast majority of the
troops
who are there gone. This war will be over; there will be no permanent bases. So when I hear, for example, others say, "I will have all
troops
out," well, the fact of the matter is who's going to protect our embassy? Who's going to protect our civilian forces? Are these folks suggesting that we're just going to leave them to wander around the streets and rely on the Iraqi
military
to do that? Obviously not.

And in -- there is a
difference
, though, between myself and
Senator Clinton
on a couple of these issues. Number one, she hasn't given a firm timetable in terms of executing the
withdrawal
, and I think that's a
problem
. I think we have to provide certainty to the Iraqi leadership, so that they know that we are serious about changing
course
. She's also suggested that the mission on the ground would be more expansive than the one that I've envisioned. And that includes, by the way, at least in an article that she -- an interview that she gave in March, that, for example, dealing with
Iran
and making sure they don't have influence in
Iraq
would be one of the missions of our
military
. I think that is a
mistake
, and so -- because what, what happens is that then presents the possibility of a
mission creep
, an expansion that would involve more
troops
than I think is necessary.

MR. RUSSERT:I want to talk about
Iran
, because there's been a discussion about a vote she cast that you mentioned earlier. Back in March there was a resolution in the
Senate
, and here's what it said:"The Secretary of
State
should designate the Iranian Revolutionary
Guards
as a
Foreign Terrorist Organization
." And you voted for that. Now,
The Washington Post
analyzed your position and
Senator Clinton
's, and this is what they editorialized:"So is there any real
difference
between Mr.
Obama
and Ms.
Clinton
on
Iran
? Mr.
Obama
contends that one distinction lies in Ms.
Clinton
's acceptance of language in the
September 26
, '07" "resolution that `it is'" "`critical
national interest
of the
United States
' to stop
Iran
from creating a
Hezbollah
-like force in
Iraq
. Mr.
Obama
claims that such language is `saber-rattling' that could be used by the
Bush administration
to justify an attack on
Iran
. This is hard to fathom. Not only is there no mention of the use of
U.S.
" forces "in the resolution, but last year Mr.
Obama
gave a speech in which he said it `is in our
national interest
to prevent'
Iran
or Syrian from using
Iraq
as `a
staging area
from which to attack
Israel
or other countries.'"

So if you have the same concern about using --
Iran
using that as a
staging area
, you would have a position very similar to
Senator Clinton
's.

SEN. OBAMA:Well, the, the previous quote was directed specifically at the issue of
Israel
, and I make no apologies for making sure that we are thinking about our
security interests
in
Israel
. The primary
difference
between myself and
Senator Clinton
is that she believes that our force structure inside
Iraq
should, in part, depend on how we can prevent
Iran
from having influence inside of
Iraq
. And I think that is a
mistake
, particularly at a time when we know this administration has been itching to escalate the tensions between
Iran
and the
United States
.

Look, the -- there's a broader issue at stake here, and that is how do we
approachIran
? I have said, unlike
Senator Clinton
, that I would meet directly with the leadership in
Iran
. I believe that we have not exhausted the diplomatic efforts that could be required to resolve some of these problems -- them developing
nuclear weapons
, them supporting
terrorist organizations
like
Hezbollah
and
Hamas
. That does not mean that we take other options off the
table
, but it means that we move
forward
aggressively with a dialogue with them about not only the sticks that we're
willing
to apply, but also the carrots. Are there inducements that we can put on the
table
-- joining the
World Trade Organization
, over time normalizing
diplomatic relations
-- giving them some sense that if they make the right
decisions
, if they
change
their behavior, then we will be
willing
to work with them as we would any other nation in a way that is mutually beneficial. That has not been tried. Not only has it not been tried, but reports indicate that it has been explicitly rejected by the
Bush administration
. That is a policy that I intend to
change
as president of the
United States
.

MR. RUSSERT:This is what you said on
Iran
. "
Senator Barack Obama
says he would `engage in aggressive personal diplomacy' with
Iran
if elected president," "would offer economic inducements and a possible promise not to seek `regime
change
' if
Iran
stopped meddling in
Iraq
and cooperated on terrorism and nuclear issues."

If
Iran
did not stop meddling in
Iraq
, did not cooperate on terrorism issues, and did not stop development of their
nuclear program
, would, then, regime
change
be on the
table
for you?

SEN. OBAMA:I have repeatedly said I would not take
military
options off the
table
. I don't think any president can in any circumstance. What I have said is that until we have exhausted those efforts, then we are not doing what's right for the
American people
. And this -- look, part of the reason it's important for us to talk to countries we don't like and leaders we don't like, it's not that I think that in a conversation with somebody like
Ahmadinejad
that I'm going to somehow
change
his mind on everything, but what we do is, we send a signal to other leadership in
Iran
, to the
Iranian people
and to the
world community
that we are listening and that we are
willing
to try to resolve conflicts peacefully. That's the kind of work to repair our standing in the world that I believe the next president's going to have to engage in. We have to have a
clear
break with the
Bush-Cheney
style of diplomacy that has caused so many problems and has actually weakened our ability to deal with a very real terrorist threat.

MR. RUSSERT:You've said this about
Afghanistan
and
Pakistan
: "I think it would be a profound
mistake
for us to use
nuclear weapons
in any circumstance involving civilians. Let me scratch that. There's been no discussion of
nuclear weapons
. That's not on the
table
." If
Iran
insisted on building their nuclear capability, you had your discussions, you had your negotiations, and they said, "Sorry, President
Obama
, we're going
forward
," would you then have a use of tactical
nuclear weapons
on the
table
?

SEN. OBAMA:Tim
, I think it would be a
mistake
for me to talk about
clearred lines
. Here -- here's what I can say, is that I will do whatever's required to keep the
American people
safe. That's my job as president, that's my job as commander in chief.
Military
tools are part of the tool kit that the president deploys. We have not been using the other tools that are available. That's what I intend to do as president of the
United States
. I will make certain that we are doing everything we need to do, not only to deal with
Iran
, but also to deal with the instability that we're seeing all across the region. And I think it's very important. I, I give
Joe Biden
credit in the last debate that we participated in to point out that you can't look at
Iran
in isolation from critical problems like
Pakistan
, from the problems that we're having in
Afghanistan
. We not -- we know now that
2007
was the deadliest year for
U.S. troops
not just in
Iraq
, but also in
Afghanistan
. We have seen a tremendous rise in
suicide bombings
. We have seen that
al-Qaeda
has strengthened itself in the borders along
Pakistan
and
Afghanistan
. We've also seen the
Taliban
resurgent. And those are all issues that involve the kinds of complexity and effective diplomatic work that we just have not seen from the administration. I intend to provide it.

MR. RUSSERT:In July, you were asked if you were
willing
to meet separately without pre- condition during your first year with
Fidel Castro
,
Kim Jung Il
,
Hugo Chavez
. You said yes. You stand by that?

SEN. OBAMA:I do.
The
-- now, I did not say that I would be meeting with all of them. I said I'd be
willing
to. Obviously, there is a
difference
between pre-conditions and preparation. Pre- conditions, which was what the question was in that debate, means that we won't meet with people unless they've already agreed to the very things that we expect to be meeting with them about. And obviously, when we say to
Iran
, "We won't meet with you until you've agreed to all the terms that we've laid out," from their perspective that's not a negotiation, that's not a meeting. Preparation means that we are sitting down ahead of time, various lower-level diplomats and envoys, are sorting out what's the agenda going to be?
Nuclear weapons
has to be on the
table
. The issue of terrorism needs to be on the
table
. Incursions into
Iraq
that are affecting the safety of our
troops
, that needs to be on the
table
. Joining the
World Trade Organization
, that needs to

be on the
table
. Once those items are on the
table
, then, yes, I would be
willing
to have a meeting to see if we can make progress on these fronts.

MR. RUSSERT:You're not afraid of being used in a propaganda way?

SEN. OBAMA:You know,
Tim
, I -- I've got to say I'm afraid of losing a propaganda war to somebody like
Ahmadinejad
. You know,
strong
countries and
strong
presidents speak with their adversaries. I -- I always think back to
J.F.K.
's saying that we should never negotiate out of fear, but we shouldn't fear to negotiate. We remain the most powerful nation, by far, on earth. Our
military
capacity is unequaled. We should not hesitate to go ahead and initiate the kinds of discussions that are required. Look at the progress we've made with
North Korea
. It's still uncertain. It still has to be verified. We shouldn't be trusting
Kim Jung Il
, but if you look at the kinds of progress we've made in terms of them being
willing
to stand down on their
nuclear program
through diplomacy and dialogue -- and I will say, by the way,
Chris Hill
, the envoy from, from our side is, is one of the best diplomats out there -- and you compare it to the lack of progress, in fact, the acceleration of their nuclear efforts during those years when the
Bush administration
was unwilling to talk to them, it's night and day. And we have to continue to apply the kind of intelligent
foreign policy
that, by the way, historically, has been bipartisan. I mean, this is not something unique to
Democrats
. You know, people like
Dick Lugar
and
Chuck Hagel
in the
Senate
, who I think are excellent senators and really understand
foreign policy
, they, too, oppose the
Kyl-Lieberman
amendment, and, and they are the kinds of folks that I think represent a tradition where, you know, our
foreign policy
differences end at our borders and, and we are projecting the kind of strength, but also intelligence, that makes ultimately American more safe.

MR. RUSSERT:We're going to take a quick break. A lot more of our conversation with
Senator Barack Obama
. He wants to be the Democratic nominee for president. Right after this, our 60th anniversary of
MEET THE PRESS
continues.

MR. RUSSERT:More with Democratic hopeful
Barack Obama
live from
Des Moines
,
Iowa
, after this station break.

Last night at the dinner you said we shouldn't be -- tell people what they want to hear, but what they should hear.

SEN. OBAMA:Right.

MR. RUSSERT:You've been talking a lot about
lobbyists
and
money
in politics. This is
The Boston Globe
in August: in eight -- "
Obama
's eight years in the
Illinois Senate
, from
1996
to
2004
, almost two-thirds of the
money
he raised for his campaigns came from"
political action committees
, "corporate contributions," "unions, according to
Illinois Board of Electionsrecords
.

He tapped
financial service
firms,
real estate
developers, healthcare providers,
oil companies
, and many other corporate interests, the
records
show." You now talk about, "Well, I'm not taking any
money
from
lobbyists
." You do take
money
from
statelobbyists
. You took $1.5 million from federal lobbying -- employees who work for federal lobbying firms. There seems to be a real inconsistency between the amount of
money
you raise and where it's coming from, and your rhetoric.

SEN. OBAMA:Well,
Tim
, look, I, I have said repeatedly that
money
is the
original sin
in politics and I am not sinless. I have raised
money
in order to bankroll my campaigns. But what I have been consistent about is fighting to reduce the influence of
money
in politics at every level of government. I am the only candidate in this race who has really pushed hard to reduce the influence of
lobbyists
. When I was in the
state legislature
, I passed the first
campaign
ethics reform legislation in 25 years. When I was in the
United States Senate
working with
Russ Feingold
, we passed the toughest ethics reform since
Watergate
-- eliminating meals, eliminating gifts, eliminating the use of corporate jets by congressmen when they're given by
lobbyists
. So I've got this track
record
, and the way I'm conducting this
campaign
, I think, reflects that interest in reducing
money
in politics.

MR. RUSSERT:But it's all new. You did it all this...

SEN. OBAMA:No, no, no, no, no. As I said,
Tim
, this interest, this support of
public financing
of campaigns, the support of changing the ethics rules, promoting robust disclosure when it comes to how campaigns are financed, those are all laws that I have written and I have passed. So my commitment extends beyond just not taking
lobbyists
'
money
and taking
PACmoney
. It's absolutely true that, in the past, there have been times where I received lobbyist and
PACmoney
. But the interest in reducing
money
in politics is one that has been consistent and that I have consistently fought against. And that, I think, is the kind of track
record
, of being
willing
to take on not only
Republicans
, but oftentimes taking on leaders in my own
party
who are resistant to
change
that I think gives me credibility to say when I am president I am actually going to take this seriously and use my
political capital
to
deal with it
.

MR. RUSSERT:But if you say you don't take federal lobbyist but you take
state
lobbyist
money
...

SEN. OBAMA:Well,
Tim
...

MR. RUSSERT:...or you take
money
from people who work for federal lobbying firms, or you take $2 million from people who work on
Wall Street
or hundreds of thousands of dollars from people who work in
pharmaceutical companies
, isn't it just a word game?

SEN. OBAMA:Tim
, I mean, this is the
problem
when you want to try to fix
Washington
is if you take certain steps to improve the process, then people will say, "Well, it's not perfect." Well, of
course
it's not perfect. That's the
problem
for running for president right now is you've got to raise millions of dollars in order to compete. We've got more small donors than every other candidate on the Democratic side combined. We have set out admittedly imperfect rules to try to reduce the influence of
money
in politics. But you are absolutely right. Most of the people that are writing $2300 checks are wealthy people, and that's one of the problems with our political

system. That's something that I am intent on changing, and I've got a track
record
of actually bringing about
change
that I believe
nobody else
has.

MR. RUSSERT:You talked about
Senator Clinton
having
records
released from the
Clinton Library
regarding her experience as first lady, and yet when you were asked about, "What about eight years in the
statesenate
of
Illinois
," you said, "I don't know." Where, where are the -- where are your
records
?

SEN. OBAMA:Tim
, we did not keep those
records
. I...

MR. RUSSERT:Are they gone?

SEN. OBAMA:Well, let's be
clear
. In the
statesenate
, every single piece of information, every document related to
state
government was kept by the
state
of
Illinois
and has been disclosed and is available and has been gone through with a fine-toothed comb by news outlets in
Illinois
. The, the stuff that I did not keep has to do with, for example, my schedule. I didn't have a schedule. I was a
state
senator. I wasn't intending to have the
Barack Obama State Senate Library
. I didn't have 50 or 500 people to, to help me archive these issues. So...

MR. RUSSERT:But your meetings with
lobbyists
and so forth, there's no
record
of that?

SEN. OBAMA:I did not have a scheduler, but, as I said, every document related to my interactions with government is available right now. And, as I said, news outlets have already looked at them.

SEN. OBAMA:I --
Tim
, I kept my own schedule. I didn't have a scheduler.

MR. RUSSERT:Senator
Durbin
, your colleague, publishes his schedule each day. Would you do that?

SEN. OBAMA:Well, you know, these days I have a public presidential schedule that I think everybody has access to.

MR. RUSSERT:Tony Rezko
, who is he?

SEN. OBAMA:He is a developer in
Illinois
. He was a
friend of mine
for, for over 10 years. He was, he was a supporter of
Democrats
and
Republicans
back in
Illinois
. He was indicted recently for issues completely unrelated to me, but obviously it's a source of concern because he's not only a friend but also a supporter of my
campaign
.

MR. RUSSERT:It appears that he raised or contributed about $168,000 for you over the
course
of your career...

SEN. OBAMA:Over the
course
of my political career. Correct.

MR. RUSSERT:...and that he was always there to be very helpful to you at certain times. And when you bought property adjacent to each other, you bought land from him to expand your backyard.

SEN. OBAMA:Correct.

MR. RUSSERT:This was all after he had been -- it had been reported he was under federal investigation.

SEN. OBAMA:Yeah.

MR. RUSSERT:Why were you associating with such a person?

SEN. OBAMA:The, the purchase of the land was after he -- it was reported that he was under federal investigation. The support that he gave to my
campaign
prior to that, at that point any problems that came up had not surfaced. I've already acknowledged this was a
mistake
. Not only should I not have been involved in any business transaction with him, in particular, but with contributors generally. But keep in mind,
Tim
, that there was no evidence of wrongdoing. This was a above-the-board market-based transaction. Everybody who's looked at has acknowledged as such. But there's no doubt that it was a
mistake
on my part.

MR. RUSSERT:Is he still your friend?

SEN. OBAMA:You know, I have not talked to him since he got into trouble with the law.

MR. RUSSERT:Period.

SEN. OBAMA:Never had a conversation with him.

MR. RUSSERT:Let me ask you about the issue of
gay marriage
.
John Lewis
, who you called a living saint, said this:"I've heard reasons for opposing
civil marriage
for same-sex couples. Cut through the distortions and they stink of the same fear, hatred and intolerance I've known in racism and in bigotry.

"Some say let's choose another route and give gay folks some
legal rights
, but call it something other than marriage. We've been down that road before in this
country
. Separate is not equal. The rights of liberty and happiness belong to each of us and on the same terms without regard to either
skin color
or
sexual orientation
." You agree?

SEN. OBAMA:Well, look, here's what I believe.
John Lewis
is -- his sentiments are exactly right that we have to provide
equal rights
for gays and lesbians in this
country
, and I have consistently fought for that. I was a co-sponsor of the
human rights
ordinance in
Illinois
that eliminated discrimination on the job, in housing and other areas for gays and lesbians in
Illinois
. I have championed every single piece of legislation that would expand the same rights to gays and lesbians. I have not said that I was a supporter of
gay marriage
, but I am a
strong
supporter of
civil unions
, and I would, as president, make absolutely certain that all
federal laws
pertaining to
married couples
-- benefits pertaining to
married couples
are conferred to people who -- same sex couples who have
civil unions
as well.

MR. RUSSERT:And yet you had a group of supporters on a
Bible
tour in
South Carolina
headed by a singer called
Donnie McClurkin
...

SEN. OBAMA:Mm-hmm.

MR. RUSSERT:...who said that homosexuality was a curse and that he had been cured by prayer. Do you believe homosexuality's a curse?

SEN. OBAMA:No.

MR. RUSSERT:Do you believe that it is something that you are born gay and that -- or that you can
change
your behavior?

SEN. OBAMA:I do not believe being gay or lesbian is a choice. And so I disagree with Reverend
McClurkin
. But understand,
Tim
, part of what I hope to offer as president is the ability to reach to people that I don't agree with, and the evangelical community is one where the
Democratic Party
, I think, we have generally seen as hostile. We haven't been reaching out to them, and I think that if we're going to makes significant progress on critical issues that we face, whether it's education or healthcare or energy or our
foreign policy
in this
country
, we've got to be able to get beyond our comfort zones and just talk to people we don't like. And -- or just talk to
people we like
, or people that we agree with on every single issue. And so when I -- one of the things that I've tried to do is to reach out to the evangelical community and tell them very clearly where I disagree. I've talked to
African-American
ministers. There's a
problem
of homophobia in the
African-American
community. I will go into churches, I will go into meetings with ministers and say, "I disagree with you on these issues. This is not how I interpret my faith." But the fact that we're having a conversation, I think, allows the possibly that I will
change
their minds, make them more tolerant of these issues. They may not agree with me on this, but ultimately, it allows me to bridge some of the cultural divisions that have, I think, prevented us from making progress in this
country
for so long.

MR. RUSSERT:We are here in
Iowa
. Your wife,
Michelle Obama
, has spent a lot of time campaigning here. And this is what she said."
Iowa
will make the
difference
. If
Barack
doesn't win
Iowa
, it's just a dream." This is must-win.

SEN. OBAMA:Well, we want to -- we have to do well in
Iowa
. Now, keep in mind when
Michelle
goes to
New Hampshire
or
South Carolina
, I think she says -- you know, she probably says the same thing there. The early states are critical to us because, you know, I am not as well- known as
Senator Clinton
and some of the other candidates in this race. And my biography is not known, what I stand for is not known as well. What theses early states allow me to do is to not only present what my agenda is for
change
in this
country
, but also it allows me to listen and learn from the
American people
, and it has been a powerful journey traveling around places like
Iowa
, where, you know, you go to small rural towns, they've got the values that are -- that, that have built this
country
, and yet they feel entirely forgotten. You know, they're working harder for less, they are having more trouble saving and retiring...

MR. RUSSERT:But,
Senator
, it's must -- it's must-win.

SEN. OBAMA:Oh, well, there -- look, there is no doubt that we have to do well in
Iowa
. If we do not do well in
Iowa
and
New Hampshire
and
South Carolina
...

MR. RUSSERT:Race is over.

SEN. OBAMA:Yeah, well, I think that's true for any of the candidates. I, I don't know a candidate out there who thinks that they can lose
Iowa
,
New Hampshire
,
Nevada
and
South Carolina
and still be successful.

MR. RUSSERT:Do you believe that
Hillary Clinton
could win a, a November election?

SEN. OBAMA:Yes. You know, I'm not somebody who believes that she can't win. I believe that it's going to be harder for her to win, because I, I think a lot of voters go in with some preconceptions about her that are going to be very over -- very difficult to overcome. And I also believe, more importantly, I don't -- it's not just a matter of winning, it's can you create a new working majority for
change
? I want to provide
health insurance
to every single American. We can't do that with a 50 plus one majority. I want to get serious about
climate change
. We can't do that with a 50 plus one majority. I believe I've got a better chance of any other, other Democratic candidates to transform the political landscape in a way that has been done in the past.

MR. RUSSERT:We will be watching. We thank you for joining us and sharing your views.

SEN. OBAMA:Tim
, it was terrific being here.

MR. RUSSERT:And our viewers should know, all the major presidential candidates except
Rudy Giuliani
and
Mitt Romney
have appeared here for in-depth interviews as part of our
MEET THE CANDIDATES2008
series. Mr.
Giuliani
and Mr.
Romney
have both personally promised they will appear within the next few weeks before the
Iowa caucuses
. We will look
forward
to having them share their views with you, the viewer. And we'll be right back.

MR. RUSSERT:And our thanks to the great folks here at WHO-
TV Channel
13 in
Des Moines
. That's all for today. If it's Sunday, it's
MEET THE PRESS
. As we leave you this
Veterans Day
, we honor all men and women who've served, and remember those who paid the ultimate sacrifice for our
country
.