No, no. I understand your opinion, and I understand a lot of people practice things that way. It's fine and I'm happy when I see people who can enjoy that.

I was simply pointing out that sometimes, some people do need safe words, because hardcore scenes can get rather intense for a lot of reasons. Sometimes the submissive doesn't want to, or can't think straight well enough to, just stop and talk. And other time's, role play and other mind/character games are involved where that could simply be confused for part of the game. There are a lot of things to take in to account when deciding whether or not one needs a safe word, and a lot of people decide it's better to be safe then sorry. Which is very wise.

I also agree that some submissive's desire to not use a safe word can be frustrating. There is a place for that in BDSM, but in my opinion it is only in a 24/7 lifetime relationship where trust has been developed to the highest levels, and the Dom knows and understands the submissive so well that a safe word has not been needed for a long time anyway. Anything less then that, and in my opinion it's just the submissive being arrogant and foolish (and usually inexperienced), thinking that she can handle things that she most probably can not.

Oh, and, I know how German Shepherds can be too. I've had two. Smartest and wisest dogs in the world, in my opinion. Once they are trained, and mature. Silly puppies are fun to watch, though.

Is it not the responsibility of the well versed Master to protect the submissive even from him or herself? The Master should be evaluating nonverbal language to determine if the safe word is being withheld. The Master is aware of the degree of infliction and can best gauge when a change in activity is necessary. Sometimes when adrenalin is going I know I do not feel the need for the safeword. That is why I trust my Love. He takes care of me at all times.

__________________You will never tame a redhead; however, you can pleasure her into submission. ~ Kaliana "Very smart, daring men love red hair, and I love that in a man." - Unknown"She was a woman with red hair - the trait which Satan supposedly relished most in mortal females."- Robert Shea"I love redheads. It's not the hair color, it's the crazy."- Michael MakaiLegend warns: Redheads don't have souls;instead, they earn a freckle for each one they steal. I am a ONCE IN A LIFETIME CLASSY LADY, not a one night stand or an addition to a collection.

Is it not the responsibility of the well versed Master to protect the submissive even from him or herself? The Master should be evaluating nonverbal language to determine if the safe word is being withheld. The Master is aware of the degree of infliction and can best gauge when a change in activity is necessary. Sometimes when adrenalin is going I know I do not feel the need for the safeword. That is why I trust my Love. He takes care of me at all times.

Yes, the safety of the submissive is the responsibility of the Master to an extent. I've said several times in this thread that Observation in Domination is something that is very, very important. But no dominant is perfect and infallible, and though most experienced dominants can notice most things from observance there are still times when things slip past even the most observant dominant. The better the Master, the rarer those times are. But they can still happen. Even the best Master is not omniscient.

There can be countless reasons why a scene may need to be stopped, slowed down or adjusted, and there should always be several methods of making that possible. The Observation of the Dominant is just one. Safe words and signals are another. Having the proper equipment nearby to cut loose anything or release anything is another part of safety. It's all just part of being prepared and keeping everybody involved safe, and enjoying the game in a healthy and sane way.

To date, no one has needed to use a safe word on me either--but as I said before, I would simply rather have it and not need it, then need it and not have it. And the same goes for all BDSM safety in general.

__________________
"A dominant who cannot control himself does not deserve the title of Master, because he who cannot control himself does not have the capacity nor the right to control anyone else." -- Rule One.

Loving - I agree with you. I also want to point out that adrenaline can cloud the judgment of the sub. I may go on when in fact tomorrow I will think better of it, but that is something for me to learn at the hands of my Master.

__________________You will never tame a redhead; however, you can pleasure her into submission. ~ Kaliana "Very smart, daring men love red hair, and I love that in a man." - Unknown"She was a woman with red hair - the trait which Satan supposedly relished most in mortal females."- Robert Shea"I love redheads. It's not the hair color, it's the crazy."- Michael MakaiLegend warns: Redheads don't have souls;instead, they earn a freckle for each one they steal. I am a ONCE IN A LIFETIME CLASSY LADY, not a one night stand or an addition to a collection.

Loving - I agree with you. I also want to point out that adrenaline can cloud the judgment of the sub. I may go on when in fact tomorrow I will think better of it, but that is something for me to learn at the hands of my Master.

Agreed also. I always play with a safe word, but the combination of adrenaline and sub-space has resulted in some of my boundaries being pushed farther than I thought they should have been had I been in a different state of mind.

It's not just adrenaline. Epinephrine, endorphins, enkephalins and a whole list of other other things. Subspace can be a very different zone sometimes. Like being drunk, or on drugs. Sometimes very much so. It's such a different thing that no scientist can fully explain it yet. Or at least none have been able to fully explain it to me, except those who subscribe to the spiritual and esoteric perspectives.

It's a fine line to walk, and a dangerous one at times. There are always risks when we play this game of pain and pleasure, but the more careful we are the safer it can be.

Though, vanilla sex can be dangerous too... Anyone remember the guy from Dr Oz that "broke" his dick?

__________________
"A dominant who cannot control himself does not deserve the title of Master, because he who cannot control himself does not have the capacity nor the right to control anyone else." -- Rule One.

How weird! Our word is banana too We've only used it once and it was only because I got a sudden painful leg cramp while in a slightly odd position.. We have used a banana in bed before too though, so maybe it'd be wise to pick another fruit next time..

It's not just adrenaline. Epinephrine, endorphins, enkephalins and a whole list of other other things. Subspace can be a very different zone sometimes. Like being drunk, or on drugs. Sometimes very much so. It's such a different thing that no scientist can fully explain it yet. Or at least none have been able to fully explain it to me, except those who subscribe to the spiritual and esoteric perspectives.

It's a fine line to walk, and a dangerous one at times. There are always risks when we play this game of pain and pleasure, but the more careful we are the safer it can be.

Though, vanilla sex can be dangerous too... Anyone remember the guy from Dr Oz that "broke" his dick?

In the series The Psychology of Adult Spanking subspace is well explained. Having yet to reach it myself, I do wonder if it is a form of dissassociation though.

__________________You will never tame a redhead; however, you can pleasure her into submission. ~ Kaliana "Very smart, daring men love red hair, and I love that in a man." - Unknown"She was a woman with red hair - the trait which Satan supposedly relished most in mortal females."- Robert Shea"I love redheads. It's not the hair color, it's the crazy."- Michael MakaiLegend warns: Redheads don't have souls;instead, they earn a freckle for each one they steal. I am a ONCE IN A LIFETIME CLASSY LADY, not a one night stand or an addition to a collection.

Oh I like that better. The term "red" is often used to describe the shade of my cheeks, either where I want them to go or where they are so it is not the best. I think "mustard" instead of yellow and "ketchup" for red would work. Neither is likely to be used in my play.

__________________You will never tame a redhead; however, you can pleasure her into submission. ~ Kaliana "Very smart, daring men love red hair, and I love that in a man." - Unknown"She was a woman with red hair - the trait which Satan supposedly relished most in mortal females."- Robert Shea"I love redheads. It's not the hair color, it's the crazy."- Michael MakaiLegend warns: Redheads don't have souls;instead, they earn a freckle for each one they steal. I am a ONCE IN A LIFETIME CLASSY LADY, not a one night stand or an addition to a collection.

In the series The Psychology of Adult Spanking subspace is well explained. Having yet to reach it myself, I do wonder if it is a form of dissassociation though.

I haven't come across that series yet, but if you think it has a decent scientific explanation of subspace I'll give it a go. Thank you.

__________________
"A dominant who cannot control himself does not deserve the title of Master, because he who cannot control himself does not have the capacity nor the right to control anyone else." -- Rule One.

__________________You will never tame a redhead; however, you can pleasure her into submission. ~ Kaliana "Very smart, daring men love red hair, and I love that in a man." - Unknown"She was a woman with red hair - the trait which Satan supposedly relished most in mortal females."- Robert Shea"I love redheads. It's not the hair color, it's the crazy."- Michael MakaiLegend warns: Redheads don't have souls;instead, they earn a freckle for each one they steal. I am a ONCE IN A LIFETIME CLASSY LADY, not a one night stand or an addition to a collection.

Oh I like that better. The term "red" is often used to describe the shade of my cheeks, either where I want them to go or where they are so it is not the best. I think "mustard" instead of yellow and "ketchup" for red would work. Neither is likely to be used in my play.

Though I give you props for a creative use of condiments, I am not certain screaming out "KETCH UP!!!" is really the best idea.

A tomato - this is not known by a lot of folks - is actually a fruit, and not a vegetable.

Tomatoes
Bananas
Mangos...

Is it safe to assume all the giddy people you see walking through the produce section, particularly in front of the banana stand, at your local supermarket are sexual deviants?

Actually a banana isn't a fruit, but a berry. Just like a tomato.

We don't have a safeword. Never have had, never seen the need for it for us. From the beginning, if there was something wrong, I took the CutieMouse road - I told him in plain words what's wrong. The way I see it, not having a safeword actually just eliminates one loop in the communication. Instead of having to say red and waiting for a permission to speak or whatever and then telling what's wrong, I just say straight away that my hip is dislocating or something.

I've never been gagged so tightly that I wouldn't be able to make the most horrific nasal or otherwise whining, to catch the PYL's attention, if something should need fixing. Of course, if your nose is plugged and something's shoved down your throat, then your capabilities to make any sound are very, very limited. But usually when people talk about being gagged, it's just a plain old ball gag or something similar.

__________________WANDERING CLOUDS HAVE FASTENED THEMSELVES TO THE MOUNTAIN'S EDGE,
FOR ENDLESS HOURS THEY STAND IN SILENCE AND WAIT-Edith Södergran: Wandering clouds

I like the color thing when your starting to learn eachother and limits and such. We currently have moved past that to just a safeword which hasn't been used but over the years we have learned eachother well. I like to keep a safeworrd cuz shit does happen even though a dom worth half a crap stays observant of the sub even for things they may not be aware of such as lessing of blood flow with the use of restraints and so forth. After all those concearns are not part of sub space lol.

The droping things works better for some than others for some people just lose that control to hold a ball in hand or even a flogger in mouth and misreading a signal esp a hard limit like stop can be sucky.

The sign language I love (assuming lighted enough area) and will keep in mind when I cross someone who likes their mouth cover/ gagged etc...

The only time I have used a safe word was a "yellow" during a highly emotional conversation.

We started out having the usual stop light safewords but I never felt the need to use them for physical interactions. He has always been able to read my body. During one particular caning I was very tempted to safe word but decided I wanted to no longer have the option to use it. So I kept my mouth shut and was very glad I did by the end. However, if I had felt I was in real danger of damage then I would have spoken up saying what was wrong instead of a safe word. I think for us at this point that works best.

The safe word for emotional situations is different. When we are discussing something serious I stay respective and submissive. The one time I "yellowed" I was at a point where I just couldn't take more pain. I was at a breaking point. It worked. It halted the conversation until a time when we both could be calmer and think more clearly. I didn't get my own way but it was a effective tool to maintain my submissiveness yet get my point across that I was breaking.

"Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them you are a mile away from them, and you have their shoes."~~~Frieda Norris The Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants

"Is it not the responsibility of the well versed Master to protect the submissive even from him or herself?"

Absolutely not. Grow up and take care of yourself before you have vanilla sex, we tell teens. Grow up and take responsibility for yourself I tell adults. Bottoms/subs are being conditioned to SUCH princess passivity by the fictions and romances we like to weave that they don't even know how or care to meet the rest of us halfway.

If you can't be assed to think ahead as to what might happen to you if X Y and Z then you have no business being hurt for kicks.

If you KNOW you have a fucked up shoulder, it is YOUR job to protect it through communication. If you KNOW you have a fucked up past it is YOUR job to keep your landmines from going off, or tell the other person about them and what to expect and what to really truly no shitting, NOT do unless they're prepared for the fallout.

Because you know what? Not doing this is playing with the Dom/top NONCONSENSUALLY.

It is the job of the "well versed Master" to have a strategy to put together whatever they set off - but not when they haven't been told anything.

I use a noise signal with gagged people stolen from a reknowned pro. I have the bottom make three sharp obnoxious klaxon noises through their nose. Anyone can do this gagged, just about. If I meet an exception I'll figure something out.

Otherwise use your words. Tell me what I need to look for if you go nonverbal BEFORE we get into it.

"No one has ever needed to stop a scene with me" is not a badge of brilliant communication and SM safety, it means that you are adding to the stigma of actually USING those stop words and "time outs" - it means you are setting people up to feel like they're failing themselves. I've had people need to stop and I've stopped. I've stopped when people wanted more. I've stopped because my arm got tired. I've stopped because my nightmare happened, a full grown ass man passing out on me, and got him down horizontal, safely and revived. (I hate st. Andrew's crosses, this has happened to me TWICE, wth?) Shit happens - the question is not how are you going to ever keep it from happening, but what are you going to do when it DOES?

__________________If I had my way we'd sleep every night all wrapped around each other like hibernating rattlesnakes.

But seriously, we haven't had a safeword in ages. We've been together for 13 years and know each other very well. Master certainly knows ME inside and out. He's excellent at keeping me out of harm's way and telling me 'enough' even when I think I can (or want to) handle more. He's also good at giving me a nudge when he thinks I'm chickening out on something. (evil, evil man)

If something does go wrong, we just use plain English to communicate. We aren't 'scening' in the generally accepted sense, this is just how we have sex, so there's no roleplay to step into or out of.

__________________
Non Circus Meus, Non Simii Mei

Sexiness wears thin after a while, and beauty fades, but to be married to a man who makes you laugh every day, ah, now that's a treat! ~~Joanne Woodward

"Is it not the responsibility of the well versed Master to protect the submissive even from him or herself?"

Absolutely not. Grow up and take care of yourself before you have vanilla sex, we tell teens. Grow up and take responsibility for yourself I tell adults. Bottoms/subs are being conditioned to SUCH princess passivity by the fictions and romances we like to weave that they don't even know how or care to meet the rest of us halfway.

Netzach,
I have to agree with you in this. My master and I have talked often how it seems that many people think PYL's are supposed to shoulder complete responsibility if anything goes wrong and the pyl is often the poor "victim" of the big-bad PYL. [Though I think modern culture has moved very far away from "personal responsibility" in many areas, not just sex or BDSM relationships ... but that is a different topic entirely, and one I could rail about for hours if given a captive audience ]

"Is it not the responsibility of the well versed Master to protect the submissive even from him or herself?"

Absolutely not. Grow up and take care of yourself before you have vanilla sex, we tell teens. Grow up and take responsibility for yourself I tell adults. Bottoms/subs are being conditioned to SUCH princess passivity by the fictions and romances we like to weave that they don't even know how or care to meet the rest of us halfway.

If you can't be assed to think ahead as to what might happen to you if X Y and Z then you have no business being hurt for kicks.

If you KNOW you have a fucked up shoulder, it is YOUR job to protect it through communication. If you KNOW you have a fucked up past it is YOUR job to keep your landmines from going off, or tell the other person about them and what to expect and what to really truly no shitting, NOT do unless they're prepared for the fallout.

Because you know what? Not doing this is playing with the Dom/top NONCONSENSUALLY.

It is the job of the "well versed Master" to have a strategy to put together whatever they set off - but not when they haven't been told anything.

I use a noise signal with gagged people stolen from a reknowned pro. I have the bottom make three sharp obnoxious klaxon noises through their nose. Anyone can do this gagged, just about. If I meet an exception I'll figure something out.

Otherwise use your words. Tell me what I need to look for if you go nonverbal BEFORE we get into it.

"No one has ever needed to stop a scene with me" is not a badge of brilliant communication and SM safety, it means that you are adding to the stigma of actually USING those stop words and "time outs" - it means you are setting people up to feel like they're failing themselves. I've had people need to stop and I've stopped. I've stopped when people wanted more. I've stopped because my arm got tired. I've stopped because my nightmare happened, a full grown ass man passing out on me, and got him down horizontal, safely and revived. (I hate st. Andrew's crosses, this has happened to me TWICE, wth?) Shit happens - the question is not how are you going to ever keep it from happening, but what are you going to do when it DOES?

I get the gist of what you are saying and I don't disagree that a sub has the duty to communicate with the dominant, to let them know limits and yes, if things get too intense, to use safewords or whatever, S/M play is a two way street, and has to be.

My take, though, is that the dominant is still the ultimate control in the play, that they need to be aware of what is going on in case a sub does go too deep, where a sub basically cannot recognize they are in trouble, it can and does happen, even with all the communication in the world. Something can trigger a bad memory they don't ever remember and cause them to go catatonic, an unknown medical condition can be triggered and a dominant has to be watching for those signs IMO. A sub cannot be responsible for something they don't know; likewise, if a sub were to go into a form of catalepsy and not be able to respond, the dominant if they are checking the sub, looking at their reactions, would see something wrong. If you were playing with a sub and suddenly they turned cold and clammy, turned a grayish color, but didn't otherwise say anything, you wouldn't stop play, realizing they were going into shock?

I don't believe a dominant has all the burden, that the sub throws themselves on them and says "now it is all up to you", but a dominant, by the very nature of their position in the play, can be in a better position to judge then a sub who may be in subspace and get into trouble and not realize it. The responsibility is both, but when a dominant takes on that position they are going to be in a better position in some cases then a sub if something is safe or not, that's all. It is a final line of defense, not the only one.

I get the gist of what you are saying and I don't disagree that a sub has the duty to communicate with the dominant, to let them know limits and yes, if things get too intense, to use safewords or whatever, S/M play is a two way street, and has to be.

My take, though, is that the dominant is still the ultimate control in the play, that they need to be aware of what is going on in case a sub does go too deep, where a sub basically cannot recognize they are in trouble, it can and does happen, even with all the communication in the world. Something can trigger a bad memory they don't ever remember and cause them to go catatonic, an unknown medical condition can be triggered and a dominant has to be watching for those signs IMO. A sub cannot be responsible for something they don't know; likewise, if a sub were to go into a form of catalepsy and not be able to respond, the dominant if they are checking the sub, looking at their reactions, would see something wrong. If you were playing with a sub and suddenly they turned cold and clammy, turned a grayish color, but didn't otherwise say anything, you wouldn't stop play, realizing they were going into shock?

Does this even need pointing out? Would you check out the situation if you were standing in a movie line and this happened to some random chick you don't know? I would.

Why are we so eager to make "regular dating" stuff into magic BDSM woo? Why don't we encourage people to capitalize on extant sense, other than to reinforce some kind of exclusivity?

Also, it's true, a sub cannot be responsible for something they don't know, but neither can a dominant be, by default. That's what we call "shit happens" and yes, the onus is on the not-tied-not-passed-out person. What if the Dominant has an unexpected medical emergency? Is the sub completely free from any responsibility in that event?

The first time I saw sounding, I almost passed out. It later became something I enjoy doing to people, it was just a one-off reaction. No one helped me process this, and no one had to guard me from my own bad reaction or talk me through it

I'm glad no one had to pick me up off the floor either, but had that happened, I hope someone would, rather than standing around because that doesn't happen to Dominants!

No one can be 100 percent sure how doing something to someone else is going to affect them in advance either. We are all going out on a limb to certain extent, only for half of us it's seen as "sexy helpless" and for the other half it's a liability and a shame.

__________________If I had my way we'd sleep every night all wrapped around each other like hibernating rattlesnakes.

Recently we used our safeword during some rough (rougher than usual) play. Everything came to a stop, and after some communication and a wee breather, we resumed the session at a "lower voltage".

We brought up the topic of safewords at a Halloween gathering and were pleasantly surprised by how many couples had one. We suspect a couple of the others who claimed they didn't probably do, and just didn't want to admit it.

I think safewords are more commonly discussed and used in the BDSM community or those who rape-play - just search "Safeword" and see the post hits in the BDSM Talk section - but as our recent discovery at the Halloween party revealed, a great deal of folks (more than we were expecting) have one.

Our safeword is "Banana". Easy to remember, isn't common with our "pillow-talk", and won't ever fall prey to the "Please don't stop!" vs the "Please! Don't! STOP!" mix-up. We also, should the mouth be gagged or otherwise occupied, use a tap-out (hands or feet) signal to let the other know "STOP!".

Do you have a safeword?

If so and you are so inclined to share, what is it?

I've had a few over the years. Currently its one (my guy and I are both gamers its a nerd thing if you've played D&D you probably get it if not oh well). So far (we're still fairly new together) I haven't used it much mostly because he's new to bdsm play and I have more trouble getting him to be rough enough with me then with him being to rough.