Thursday, October 02, 2008

I've called my former management company probably fifteen times now about getting my security deposit returned. It's about $1800, and though I lived with my boyfriend and another roommate, it's almost all my money. For awhile it was "we'll send it to you in two months." Then it was three months. Then it was, "Oh, they send it in the third month." So it's four months later, and I called back, and I'm told that they have no record that I paid my last month's rent, so the deposit was applied to that, and oh, I owe them $71 (for what, they do not say). I didn't pay my last month's rent because I paid first and last when I moved in. This management company bought the building while I lived there, and they claim to have no records of my initial transaction. But I bet you money ($1800, in fact) that they'd have harassed me long before this if they really thought I hadn't paid a month of rent that was due.

I'm in tears. I don't know what to do. It's a lot of money. And the brusque rep says she understands that, but without proof I paid first and last two and a half years ago, there's no way for me to get my money back. And then she hangs up on me.

What are my options here? Small claims court? Would it help to sic my dad, who is both a lawyer and extremely tenacious, on them? Do I just slink away and let them keep all this money? How can I do that?

66 comments:

.deb.
said...

Do you or your roommates have a copy of the original rental agreement, or maybe a copy of the cashed check for first/last/deposit?

I don't know about court, etc, but my roommates and I successfully got our apartment management to back down when my roommate's dad threatened to get his lawyer involved. It seems that you're not likely to do well in court without any proof of having paid first/last/deposit initially.

Don't slink away. Before getting your dad involved maybe you could contact your bank to get a copy of the checks that you wrote for your rent. Giving proof that you paid for all the months you living in the apartment.

I think that only after that would it be appropriate to ask you dad for help.

Sic 'em. No, seriously. If they'd told you that story the first time you called maybe I'd think differently, but keeping in mind that you've called several times and each time you've gotten a different story...something doesn't sound right.

I don't know much about law, but I agree with the other commentor...check your banking statements, and then take advantage that your dad is a lawyer. If you give them enough of a headache they might just give in.

First, do you have PROOF that you paid it? A receipt, cancelled check, a bank statement, something from the broker, etc. Especially good is a statement from the original management company and/or the original lease showing an amount paid. It's worth paying $8 or whatever to your bank for a copy of the cancelled check if necessary.

Second, go to HousingNYC and read up about your rights and download the rent security complaint form. Fill it out and complain about two things: one, that they have not returned your deposit in a reasonable time (two months is standard) and two, that they have not kept your deposit in an interest-bearing account (you are entitled to the interest). You can "prove" that they haven't kept your deposit in an interest-bearing account, because they can't find it and say you never paid it.

Start keeping meticulous records. Document every single phone call with dates, times, names, etc with your management company as well as the attorney general's office. Send any correspondence to the management company certified mail, return receipt requested (you don't need to do this with the AG office). The AG will threaten the management company on your behalf, and I'm betting you'll get your deposit back (maybe with interest) within a month.

I didn't make this up, either; I had to do this with my management company last summer. Let me know if you have other questions, and good luck!

Do what Little Miss Money Bags says, and also sic your dad on them. Being right is not always enough to get things resolved quickly; being right, aggressive, and threateningly litigious generally helps. ;)

All this is complicated by the fact that I was out of state when the lease was signed, and then moved to New York and in with my boyfriend & ex-roommate in the apartment in question, so I didn't actually write the checks--my dad did, from an account in my name here in New York, which was then closed. So he's checking his records, I'm checking mine, and I'll get my boyfriend & ex-roommate to check theirs, too. I've ordered my bank statements from that period, & I'll go through my shoddy organization system when I get home tonight. I've also emailed my old roommate to see what he might have, including the contact info for the broker who represented us. So...no slinking, yet.

Good advice from the above, and yeah...I would say tell them you've hired a lawyer and see what happens. Get proof of rent-payment from the lease and bank, and I think they'll start to see it your way.

It's a pain, but worth it! This is YOUR money (and your pride) we're talking about here!!! They have no right to take that away from you!

All of these posters have great advice. It might only take a letter from an attorney.

I had a situation where I got ripped on on some auto work. I actually pay for legal insurance through PrePaid Legal. It costs me $17 a month and any time I have a legal question I call and can speak to an attorney who specializes in that field. Sometimes I just need to speak to someone. In the case of the car they wrote a letter on my behalf which was covered under my policy. That was enough to get reimbursed by the company who worked on my car.

Ugh. I have never had a landlord who was not a moneygrubbing scumbag. These folks are bullshitting you, and assuming you will go away to be rid of the hassle, and that they will get to keep your deposit. This is probably how it's gone for them before.

For some reason, landlords (anyone who has more tenants than, like, one 4-plex) have this weird tendancy to give up quick when they get hit with certified letters, small claims court complaints (you can do these yourself, you don't need to lawyer up) or cc's on letters to the AG.

Got to this post a bit late in the day but I agree 100% with the advice to sic your dad and/or take other legal action.

I worked for a property management company and while we never had anything like this happen (we were commercial and very well-documented), the tenants sometimes had to be tenacious about getting things done. Certified letters with return receipt (and keep copies of the letters and the receipt portion you get back) are considered much more seriously, for instance.

This exact same thing happened to my parents when I was in middle school. We took the jerk to small claims court and we won. You probably won't need to get that far. Ask your dad for his legal recommendation.

$1800 is way too much money to slink away. For a young person, that is highway robbery. Think of it this way: by giving them a hard time, you may prevent them from ever trying this again.

You should still be able to get cancelled checks from the bank, even if the account is closed. I've had to do that before. Just call them and say that the account is closed but that you need a copy of a check. Give them whatever information they have (they probably can verify it without the account number if you don't have that).

A phone call from your dad, a copy of the lease and check, and a summons to small claims court will get it done. Most people don't show up for small claims court, in which case you automatically win. If they do show up, a lease should be plenty since no landlord is going to let you live somewhere if you don't give them all the money they want in the lease. A check is even better, and I would also get the certified letter stating that you're asking for it.

Gather all the proof you can AND ask your Dad for his legal help. I agree that you should not tell them he is your father. But seriously--this is the worst kind of company. Don't let them get away with it!!!

In my case, I was arguing for the return of $530, and I would have taken them to court over it, too, so you are definitely doing the right thing by making sure they do return your money to you.

I forgot to say yesterday that I don't think you need to "lawyer up" or threaten the management company with legal action yet. Let them know that you've filed a rent security complaint form with the attorney general's office but save small claims court for a future step if the AG office can't help you. And definitely don't work at cross purposes with the AG office--once you turn it over to them, let them handle it until/unless they say they can't do anything. I believe there's a recommendation in the form that you not antagonize the landlord while they are investigating, and threatening legal action is antagonizing.

I reread your post, and you also said they are now trying to charge you an unspecified amount? If they send you another bill, write them back and say you consider it harrassment and mail fraud (trying to collect balances not owed is mail fraud). That might take care of that situation right there. My dad is a lawyer too! :)

Above all, keep in mind that they are probably NOT doing this just to ruin your life. They have a terrible record-keeping system, which they might have inherited when they bought the building, and probably really think they're right. When you disabuse them of that notion (with proof), they'll pay up because they have to. Treat them firmly, but politely, and don't let them stress you out.

Also, learn from this--get a copy of your new lease, a copy of cancelled checks for deposits and rent payments made at lease signing, receipts from brokers or landlords, and anything else and start a file NOW. Assume you will always have to argue for the return of your deposit and prepare to do so up front when you're moving in. Also, when your renewal lease shows up, check to make sure it is noted that you paid a deposit and refuse to sign if it doesn't show that you did.

Don't let them get away with it. I've seen management companies pull this kind of thing before, and most people will think it's too much hassle and let it go. That's why they keep doing it because experience has shown them they can.

It's the principle of the thing! and $1800 is a lot of money. Talk to your dad, talk to people and find out what your options are.

My dad didn't pay the rent checks, anonymous--he paid a chunk of the moving-in costs out of a custodial account (i.e. he controlled it, but it was my money) in New York for the lease signing--I was out of state still. But he's checking his records, and I'm checking mine.

Thanks for all the comments, guys--I've found them immensely motivating. There will be no slinking yet.

when i had a landlord resist returning my security deposit, i immediately called my step-father, also a lawyer. he wrote a letter on his company letterhead and he got a response much more quickly than i had previously been able to.did you pay the first and last month's rent by check? if so, maybe yr bank has a scan of it. also, yr lease should have this info stated on it.

DO NOT GO AWAY WITHOUT A FIGHT! That is precisely what the landlord is hoping you will do.

I hope you have a copy of the lease. Please tell me you paid first and last month's rent with a CHECK? Go to your bank and buy your records (generally you can't get your account records more than a few months back without paying)

Get your father after them hard. Maybe 1800 is not worth more than a few hours of his time, but its worth a whole bunch more of yours. Keep after them. Read up on your rights in NY. I am certain that NYC has strong renters protections. Look for any renter's rights forums for NYC residents.

Many, many LLs think that basically the security deposit is just "found money" and that they merely need to come up with plausible excuses to keep it at the end of your term. Don't let this happen. Suck it up and FIGHT!

Sic your dad on them. I've found in my years of renting that a well-timed, forceful letter from an attorney, especially if you know you are in the right, can work wonders on landlords. It is not worth their time or money to go to court with you over what to them is a small amount of money. Once you get the law involved, if they are trying to scam you out of your deposit, they will back down because they know they are in the wrong.

I work for residential property management company and the people that have said if you have a copy of the lease that's all you need are correct. By law, the deposit listed on the lease is the deposit you must be refunded (well, it is in MA and VA, where I've worked, but I'm guessing IL isn't much different). Additionally, most states have laws that say the deposit must be refunded OR you must receive an itemized list of deductions within a certain period of time. Again, in VA and MA it's 30-45 days. Don't know what IL says, but I'm guessing it's not three months. Failure to do either of those things can result in triple damages ($5400, in your case) REGARDLESS of whether they were right or wrong in witholding the money- simply because they didn't do what they were supposed to do.

So don't let them keep putting you off until you go away- sic your dad on them! Good luck!

I agree with the anonymous comment just above me. In CA, there is a similar law - I think it is withing 60 or 90 days that you must receive the deposit back (or get a detailed list of damages), otherwise you can sue for 2-3x the original amount.

I was in a similar situation when the building I lived in was bought by new landlords - apparently, they were truly clueless about which account the security deposit was in and whether it had been turned over by the previous building owner. So I called my old landlords, who were very helpful in getting the situation straightened out. Would this be an option for you? Hang in there!!

I can't remember ever getting back the full deposit in the US they always seem to come up with some excuse. But if you paid with a cheque your bank ought to be able to give you a statement of that. Then if they don't respect that, try your Dad first...

If landlords were generally honest I'd give them the benefit of the doubt and say that the former management company didn't turn over the records and/or the security deposits they were holding. But since many of them are outright thieves, they're probably just trying to rip you off. Why not hold on to your money and make you fight to get it back, they have nothing to lose. I had an old landlord purposefully try to defraud me and hold on to my security deposit, they also had the gall to send me a bill saying I hadn't moved out at the end of the lease. It was all lies that I could easily prove so I tried to talk to them, to reason with them, but to no avail. The day they received the small claims suit they called me up and offered back my deposit. This company was notorious for this and has been fined by the state AG several times, the owner is a crook but GWB made him ambassador to Spain! At first it felt like David facing Goliath but afterwards it felt so good to say I stood up for myself. So fight them girl, fight, stand up for yourself. I don't know the laws there in NY but here in california the law favors the tenant in these disputes. Good luck!

It is illegal for a rental facility to apply your security deposit towards rent. You have a case. If they really have a dispute about your last month's rent, they have to deal with it separately. Take em to court and you WILL get your security deposit PLUS a reasonable interest rate for how long they held it. You may also file for punitive damages and stress if you can prove higher blood pressure levels etc.

This exact same thing happened to me. My landlord refused to refund my security deposit and I had also pre-paid first and last month's rent. I took him to small claim's court and had to show all canceled rent checks for the time that I lived there. I received the copies from my bank. Little me against the landlord and his lawyer. Judge ruled in my favor. I got the deposit of $1200 plus expenses. Also, depending on your state, you can get three times the deposit as judgement. Good luck!

SIC YOUR DAD ON 'EM. Seriously. There's no shame in taking advantage of having an attorney in the family. And even if your parent weren't an attorney, sometimes these types of people take advantage of young renters because they think they don't know better and don't know how to advocate for themselves. When I had my first apartment (I was 24) and moved out, my mom had to intervene as well to make sure I wasn't cheated out of my deposit! Ridiculous.

Good to see all these comments advising you not to let up.I know it's a hassle, but think of it this way: how much time would it take you to earn $1800 normally?Also, keep details of when you contacted them, if needed, send them a letter. I'm studying Commonwealth law and I know it's different in the USA, but in many situations if you wait too long to claim, you give up the right to claim. It's very likely to be different in the USA, but you may want to keep records of your communications.Finally, it's likely that they've got bad recordkeeping and are being irresponsible rather than criminal.Good luck!

I used to work for a management company years ago. The best thing you can do is find your records, file a claim with the better business bureau and then file a small claims suit. You should be able to get the deposit, plus interest and your court filing fees back. You should be able to take this to small claims court yourself. As long as you have copies of all your checks and the lease agreement you should be fine.

I help my mom with a property she owns, and not all landlords are scum LOL. We've had tenents that did major damage AND bounced the last month's rent check; then asked for their deposit back! Sometimes the tenents are the scum!

But I always try to deal fairly with our tenents. The new owners should have made provision to take control of the escrow account(s) that the deposits should be isolated in. (We use ING and keep each apt in it's own sub-account and we do give interest after the first yearly renewal, btw).

All the hoops and the differnt stories you've been getting lead me to think that their records are a mess. Hang in there and get your ducks in a row.

Advice to all renters - keep the original lease and all renewals. I'd also save a copy of the bank statement, print out of the check scan, the carbon or whatever you have to show payment of deposits. It doesn't hurt to log check numbers, $ and dates of your rent payments. Keep that file active as long as you live there!

Looks like I'm too late to answer this with any new information, but if you don't have a receipt with signatures attesting to the fact that you paid first and last when you moved in, all you need is a fist-full of cancelled checks (or copies of them). If they can look you squarely in the eye and still say no, then by all means, sic your dad on them with a strongly-worded, certified letter. It's your money, and according to the law, you're entitled to it, no only in a timely manner, but PLUS INTEREST!

2 months? 45-60 days? Geez, here in CA you have to have the deposit back in 21 days after move out, or an itemized list of all the damages caused that the security deposit was used to pay for.

I help my dad manage his rental property, and no matter what a pain the tenant was, we always get the deposit back to them within 21 days of move out, and the move out date is in writing when they give us notice.

Usually, if the tenant behaved themselves, we'll give them the deposit right after they hand us the keys. If they were a pain in the butt, they can wait 21 days like the law says.

As for your property management company, I hate property managers... and I hate landlords like this who give the good landlords a bad rep. Our tenants that behave themselves love us and whenever we have a vacancy they have a line of their friends who want to rent the unit. Of course the tenants who deal drugs in front of the building hate us because we have the best eviction attorney in town on their case and they're out pretty quick.

Everyone above has some great suggestions. If NYC is anything like CA, I'm sure there are plenty of tenant's rights organizations that can help you for free. There are wayyyyy too many ways to get free help in going after these people to just walk away from $1,800. Take these jerks down!

I agree with what everyone is saying. Definitely don't let them get away with it. Just imagine, once you get your money back you can use the money for whatever you want. Check out the new Krave (wwww.motorola.com/krave) if you're into new technology...

It's working so very well for the morally bankrupt of our society you'd almost swear it was all planned from the beginning. But of course that simply can't be, nobody could possibly be that much of a money grubbing scumbag

This is a rent control building but I am only subleasing, ...Can the person who has the original rental agreement with the landlord and who subleased / subrented it to me....Can he just give me notice to move out?

Thanks for sharing your finance story to the internet. I think whatever happened and will happen, it is still nice to know that you have inspired people on their financial status, whether it is positive or negative.