Last Man on Earth:kudayta: Free Radical: So Sovereign Citizens think they can just steal shiat?

Well, from what I've gathered, they think they can steal shiat and get away with it if they some magical pass phrases in the proper order. To them, their legal sounding arguments have the effect of nullifying commonly accepted authorities (like judges, cops, attorneys, and what not).

They don't seem to grasp that, ultimately, all political authority rests upon the ability and willingness to use violence. Or maybe I'm misreading them and its just a huge bluff on their part. If so, then they aren't catching on that everyone is calling their collective bluff.

I don't agree with you on the violence thing by any means, but in general, it is a case of knowing that legal arguments work without having any clue WHY they work. Several posters have referred to it as cargo-cult law, and that's the best way I've hard of phrasing it. Absent any actual knowledge of how statutes, case law, and precedent function, they basically think they can find any little detail that's "off" and frame it as a legal technicality to get around the law. They post their "discoveries" online, where other sovereign citizens see the revelation, adopt it, and post their own in turn. In so doing, the framework of a philosophy is formed, with each person having a hodgepodge of half-baked notions reinforced by each other. It's actually very similar to the way conspiracy theories develop legs of their own over the internet.

I think Free Radical hit the nail on the head. The wealthy and powerful politicians (government) certainly do surround themselves with many layers of well paid armed willing goon thugs for protection to make certain their laws and statutes are imposed upon the masses.

It starts right in our tiny towns. Local PD's and local politicians. Typically most people in the political arena are well heeled business people, they are heavily connected to others in town by long term relationships, common interests, business dealings and secret handshake club memberships. These are greedy people who primarily seek self gain to further increase their family wealth.

The higher up you go the worse it gets. The hired guns are more well equipped, their leaders/unions are more corrupt and the wealthy powerful political families are more wealthy, more powerful and more dangerous. They play the game for bigger stakes and good luck to those they perceive are in their way.

We all have read about the unchecked violence across the country unleashed upon the people by law enforcement. it's no just beatings, shootings and killings. It's a long history of the the top insanity with unarmed peaceful protesters being fired upon on college campuses and neighborhoods being burned out with innocent folks left homeless thanks to mentally unbalanced suits and badges using bombs.

As for the Sovereign Citizen types, they have my sympathy. There is lots of misleading information on many websites and those that buy into the dreck pay the price.

Last Man on Earth:kudayta: I'm on my phone right now and can't break down the whole violence argument for you. I suspect though that we largely agree on the foundations of political power, but use different language to describe the same phenomena.

Entirely possible, it's just that that whole line of phrasing has been so co-opted by the "taxation is theft at gunpoint" mentality that I find myself reflexively running away from it. You may well be correct that we frame the same thing in different ways, however.

Yeah good example and I see how my phrasing introduced confusion. Sorry about that.

I don't think taxation is theft, but it is done (ultimately) at gunpoint. Hopefully that clears some things up for you.

This is a local story for me (living about 20 miles away from that particular house.) It's been on the news every night. The police have given her like a week, at least, to peacefully remove herself from the house. They gave her a week! I think the cops have been patient enough.

Langdon_777:Although I find it all funny, I cannot help but have doubts over the $2mil bond - WHAT THE FARK?!?

She was already facing felony assault charges for trying to run over a couple of cops after they informed her that the "Free sovereign on the land" derp didn't fly, and her mother had filed with DCS stating that the children in the house were being abused.

hardinparamedic:Langdon_777: Although I find it all funny, I cannot help but have doubts over the $2mil bond - WHAT THE FARK?!?

She was already facing felony assault charges for trying to run over a couple of cops after they informed her that the "Free sovereign on the land" derp didn't fly, and her mother had filed with DCS stating that the children in the house were being abused.

The police in that area have no tolerance for Sovereign Citizens, considering what one of their "leaders" did in 2010.

Freakjob_0:Would rather have pictures of this $3 million house, than pictures of the suspect...

Not all $3 million houses are anything special to look at. Especially when most of the $3 million value belongs to the dirt underneath the house, and the fact that someone was able to get a building permit for it.

hardinparamedic:Langdon_777: Although I find it all funny, I cannot help but have doubts over the $2mil bond - WHAT THE FARK?!?

She was already facing felony assault charges for trying to run over a couple of cops after they informed her that the "Free sovereign on the land" derp didn't fly, and her mother had filed with DCS stating that the children in the house were being abused.

The police in that area have no tolerance for Sovereign Citizens, considering what one of their "leaders" did in 2010.

All that plus her threat to "take care of" the cops if they tried to evict her.

Plus that was the wrong neighborhood to fark with. Lots and lots money around that street.

Benjamin Orr:All that plus her threat to "take care of" the cops if they tried to evict her.

Plus that was the wrong neighborhood to fark with. Lots and lots money around that street.

Yeah. That's what got Shelby County SWAT involved was her threat to "take care of" the cops. Apparently she was also threatening to shoot News Channel 5 and 3 reporters if they didn't get off "her property".

Ever since the Kanes executed those West Memphis cops, the local guys don't fool around with these idiots.

Silverstaff:kudayta: They don't seem to grasp that, ultimately, all political authority rests upon the ability and willingness to use violence.

I wonder how many "Sovereign Citizen" types are also Second Amendment fans who hold on to the idea of using guns to rise up against the government one day, or who advocated "Second Amendment Solutions" or held up signs at rallies that said "We came Unarmed, this time" (that is, they advocate political violence in other places, but never think that it could be used against them and they can use the right magical-legal phrases to make the big government bow to their wishes).

There is no wonder you simply are not thinking that through, why would they be second amendment fans? If they don't believe in that at all what about anything would make them feel they did not have a right?

The bill of rights does not grant you rights, it limits the ones you already have since your birth

titwrench:Bungles: Wait, a bail bond for non-violent squatting that's 25 times the amount than Pistorius got for shooting his girlfriend in the head?

Upsetting rich people and the people with all the money> murdering hot chicks. Duh. Did you think the legal system is here to protect you? Do not fark with the 1%.

Well first we need to ignore that Pistorius is being tried in a different country halfway round, both in latitude and longitude, from Memphis.

But lets imagine that his case was magically transported to Shelby County, TN.

You have a person that was otherwise considered a national hero and an upstanding community member with deep roots who is accused of murder. He recognizes that he is the shooter but that it was an accident and steadfastly claims he will prove so.

You have another person that has had past run ins with law enforcement, files false paperwork to take over property that does not belong to them and has repeatedly stated that she does not recongized the authority of the court, policy or US legal system in general (expect when filing false paperwork of course).

Now keep in mind that bail is prejudicial punishment. The purpose of bail is to ensure you will show up to court when you are supposed to.

So who is a bigger risk to fail to show up to court? The person that says it is a tragic accident and wants to prove it so or the person that does not recognize the authority of the court that is asking for bail?

kudayta:Last Man on Earth: kudayta: I'm on my phone right now and can't break down the whole violence argument for you. I suspect though that we largely agree on the foundations of political power, but use different language to describe the same phenomena.

Entirely possible, it's just that that whole line of phrasing has been so co-opted by the "taxation is theft at gunpoint" mentality that I find myself reflexively running away from it. You may well be correct that we frame the same thing in different ways, however.

Yeah good example and I see how my phrasing introduced confusion. Sorry about that.

I don't think taxation is theft, but it is done (ultimately) at gunpoint. Hopefully that clears some things up for you.

Taxation is not based on a threat of violence. It's based on a social contract: you live in a society that provides certain benefits, and in return you pay taxes to help pay for those benefits.

GalFriday:Last Man on Earth: Koalaesq: i've been up against Sovereign Citizens in court. They are scarily deluded people. Although watching the Judge's face when the "sovereign" referred to him as "Mr." and not "your Honor" was worth the price of admission.

Yeah, I'm kind of hoping I'll run in to a few, they seem like so much fun to watch.

Oh but they are! I ran into one in my time. He was charged with multiple counts of theft of utilities and theft by deception. Various utilities had cut him off for nonpayment and he would go back out and hook them up again on his "compound", which consisted of two houses and a shed on the same lot. He had declared his lot sovereign land and not subject to taxes, penalties, or apparently utility payments. He called everyone (including the judge and the police) by their first names. His women and him kept repeating that they didn't recognize the authority of the court or the so-called government and refused to answer questions and were belligerent. So, it ended with the man being sentenced to 3 years for theft and the property condemned.

anfrind:kudayta: Last Man on Earth: kudayta: I'm on my phone right now and can't break down the whole violence argument for you. I suspect though that we largely agree on the foundations of political power, but use different language to describe the same phenomena.

Entirely possible, it's just that that whole line of phrasing has been so co-opted by the "taxation is theft at gunpoint" mentality that I find myself reflexively running away from it. You may well be correct that we frame the same thing in different ways, however.

Yeah good example and I see how my phrasing introduced confusion. Sorry about that.

I don't think taxation is theft, but it is done (ultimately) at gunpoint. Hopefully that clears some things up for you.

Taxation is not based on a threat of violence. It's based on a social contract: you live in a society that provides certain benefits, and in return you pay taxes to help pay for those benefits.

And if you try to opt out they'll throw you in prison and if you don't let them they'll farking shoot you. But uhhh no violence involved right?

This specific derp being in that type is a little unusual, to be sure, but it's not like it couldn't happen.

That said, I always have a special mixture of scorn and pity for "sovereign citizens", they are to the law and government what TimeCube Guy is to physics, Jenny McCarthy and her fellow anti-vaxers are to medicine,Truthers are to history, and Young Earth Creationists are to archaeology.

My favorite rebuttal to their arguments is to ask two questions:1. Where is a "sovereign citizen" who actually won in the long term? Yeah, they can use lawsuits and liens and such to drag things out, but in the end they always get smacked down, HARD, by the system for all kinds of fraud, tax evasion and such. Name one guy who's actually pulled off this scam and had the courts back it up and forced the government to bow to his "sovereignty".

2. If, huge if, this actually worked, why wouldn't more people do it? You think if this worked that lawyers and judges wouldn't use it themselves? Some super-secret backdoor way to ignore any laws you don't like, then why wouldn't lots of people use it, and why did you have to hear about it on some backwater of the internet or buy some guys book or go to his seminar or something. Ever notice that the people trying to get other people to do this have a financial incentive to do so?

well, my response to a brother in law twice removed (how do you describe the stranger who married your sister in law?) who borders on sovereign citizen / conspiracy theorist / nut job is pretty simple.

I just say, you know, ignorance of the law is not a valid defense... so, just keep that in mind if you plan on acting on any of your ideas. oh yeah, and call me. you will need me if you ever go forward with this idea.

/ I'm a lawyer. so far my commentary has motivated him to stop talking about this shiat around me. I used to engage him and explain how wrong, legally, his opinion was. then i just thought, fark it. maybe i'll get a client. he's got money.// the fringed flags admiralty thing really makes me giggle. since I have done admiralty law cases and I really like admiralty law. despite what psychopaths think, it's pretty much just tort and contract law that's unique to the open seas. but, you get to say "admiralty" so you don't feel like an ambulance chaser.

doubled99:Yes, of course the whole "sovereign citizen" thing is a scam, but who cares?Why are so many people so fiercely eager to cheer on banks and govt squashing someone from staying in a house no one is using?

1/10.

But I am bored so: hey, I guess you're ok with people taking your property when you are "not using" it for a while, so post up your address and let people come pick through your stuff.

wingnut396:So who is a bigger risk to fail to show up to court? The person that says it is a tragic accident and wants to prove it so or the person that does not recognize the authority of the court that is asking for bail?

Well said. The whole point of the $2MM bail is to make sure she can't post it... because she's threatened to kill police, tried to run them over, and does not recognize that the court system is legitimate. And, she belongs to an organization that executed two other cops in the same area just a few years ago.

Koalaesq:i've been up against Sovereign Citizens in court. They are scarily deluded people. Although watching the Judge's face when the "sovereign" referred to him as "Mr." and not "your Honor" was worth the price of admission.

Man, I have always loved me a sovereign citizen. They are almost as much fun as vexatious litigants. The crazy just pays for itself in stories at the bar later... :D

I have a friend who works for a mortgage servicer and she's plastered her cubicle with all of the crazy letters she has received from them over the years...

Ned Stark:anfrind: kudayta: Last Man on Earth: kudayta: I'm on my phone right now and can't break down the whole violence argument for you. I suspect though that we largely agree on the foundations of political power, but use different language to describe the same phenomena.

Entirely possible, it's just that that whole line of phrasing has been so co-opted by the "taxation is theft at gunpoint" mentality that I find myself reflexively running away from it. You may well be correct that we frame the same thing in different ways, however.

Yeah good example and I see how my phrasing introduced confusion. Sorry about that.

I don't think taxation is theft, but it is done (ultimately) at gunpoint. Hopefully that clears some things up for you.

Taxation is not based on a threat of violence. It's based on a social contract: you live in a society that provides certain benefits, and in return you pay taxes to help pay for those benefits.

And if you try to opt out they'll throw you in prison and if you don't let them they'll farking shoot you. But uhhh no violence involved right?

You can opt out - just don't earn money.

If you're earning money, chances are pretty good you're using those public accommodations.

dukeblue219:wingnut396: So who is a bigger risk to fail to show up to court? The person that says it is a tragic accident and wants to prove it so or the person that does not recognize the authority of the court that is asking for bail?

Well said. The whole point of the $2MM bail is to make sure she can't post it... because she's threatened to kill police, tried to run them over, and does not recognize that the court system is legitimate. And, she belongs to an organization that executed two other cops in the same area just a few years ago.

anfrind:kudayta: Last Man on Earth: kudayta: I'm on my phone right now and can't break down the whole violence argument for you. I suspect though that we largely agree on the foundations of political power, but use different language to describe the same phenomena.

Entirely possible, it's just that that whole line of phrasing has been so co-opted by the "taxation is theft at gunpoint" mentality that I find myself reflexively running away from it. You may well be correct that we frame the same thing in different ways, however.

Yeah good example and I see how my phrasing introduced confusion. Sorry about that.

I don't think taxation is theft, but it is done (ultimately) at gunpoint. Hopefully that clears some things up for you.

Taxation is not based on a threat of violence. It's based on a social contract: you live in a society that provides certain benefits, and in return you pay taxes to help pay for those benefits.

And if you don't honor the social contract and act like an arrogant and ignorant douche? They lock you up. At gunpoint.

Ned Stark:anfrind: kudayta: Last Man on Earth: kudayta: I'm on my phone right now and can't break down the whole violence argument for you. I suspect though that we largely agree on the foundations of political power, but use different language to describe the same phenomena.

Entirely possible, it's just that that whole line of phrasing has been so co-opted by the "taxation is theft at gunpoint" mentality that I find myself reflexively running away from it. You may well be correct that we frame the same thing in different ways, however.

Yeah good example and I see how my phrasing introduced confusion. Sorry about that.

I don't think taxation is theft, but it is done (ultimately) at gunpoint. Hopefully that clears some things up for you.

Taxation is not based on a threat of violence. It's based on a social contract: you live in a society that provides certain benefits, and in return you pay taxes to help pay for those benefits.

And if you try to opt out they'll throw you in prison and if you don't let them they'll farking shoot you. But uhhh no violence involved right?

Yep, the punishment for any infraction ultimately escalates to imprisonment if you don't capitulate. I agree with Kudayta.

dv-ous:Ned Stark: anfrind: kudayta: Last Man on Earth: kudayta: I'm on my phone right now and can't break down the whole violence argument for you. I suspect though that we largely agree on the foundations of political power, but use different language to describe the same phenomena.

Entirely possible, it's just that that whole line of phrasing has been so co-opted by the "taxation is theft at gunpoint" mentality that I find myself reflexively running away from it. You may well be correct that we frame the same thing in different ways, however.

Yeah good example and I see how my phrasing introduced confusion. Sorry about that.

I don't think taxation is theft, but it is done (ultimately) at gunpoint. Hopefully that clears some things up for you.

Taxation is not based on a threat of violence. It's based on a social contract: you live in a society that provides certain benefits, and in return you pay taxes to help pay for those benefits.

And if you try to opt out they'll throw you in prison and if you don't let them they'll farking shoot you. But uhhh no violence involved right?

You can opt out - just don't earn money.

If you're earning money, chances are pretty good you're using those public accommodations.

Yes, wandering the back alleys and eating from garbage cans wholly excluded from the normal flow of human affairs until you die of scurvy is totes a reasonable escape clause to a contract that you never signed but are somehow a party to. Consent is therefore legitimate.

spentshells:Silverstaff: kudayta: They don't seem to grasp that, ultimately, all political authority rests upon the ability and willingness to use violence.

I wonder how many "Sovereign Citizen" types are also Second Amendment fans who hold on to the idea of using guns to rise up against the government one day, or who advocated "Second Amendment Solutions" or held up signs at rallies that said "We came Unarmed, this time" (that is, they advocate political violence in other places, but never think that it could be used against them and they can use the right magical-legal phrases to make the big government bow to their wishes).

There is no wonder you simply are not thinking that through, why would they be second amendment fans? If they don't believe in that at all what about anything would make them feel they did not have a right?

The bill of rights does not grant you rights, it limits the ones you already have since your birth

I had to read that twice and I want to make sure I'm getting your point: you're saying that they aren't 2nd amendment fans, but they are right to bear arms fans? Because the right to bear arms is a natural state of homo sapiens?

OK - so let them have their little sovereign fiefdom. Cut off the utilities (let them generate their own), and require a visa whenever they want to cross the border of their sovereign property into the US.

Basically treat the boundary as if it were a national boundary with all of the restrictions at the border.

Of course to PAY for all of this, the visa fees would likely be incredibly expensive... :-)

I'm still of the opinion that we should actually GIVE these people their own little micro-country, and treat it as a "Truman Show"-like reality series. Let them have their Tea Party utopia as long as the rest of us get to watch as a lesson as to why living in a community comes with fundamental costs. Hell, the side betting ALONE could be interesting.

anfrind:Taxation is not based on a threat of violence. It's based on a social contract: you live in a society that provides certain benefits, and in return you pay taxes to help pay for those benefits.

You're conflating two concepts, political legitimacy and political power. Social-contract theory attempts to explain why some people over in Washington have the moral authority to demand that you cough up what you've earned (as did the idea of the divine right of kings); that's relevant to but clearly separate from the issue that what it means to have political power is that, regardless of whether you're George Washington or Joseph Stalin, you can send guys with guns to make other people do what you do demand.

Ned Stark:dv-ous: Ned Stark: anfrind: kudayta: Last Man on Earth: kudayta: I'm on my phone right now and can't break down the whole violence argument for you. I suspect though that we largely agree on the foundations of political power, but use different language to describe the same phenomena.

Entirely possible, it's just that that whole line of phrasing has been so co-opted by the "taxation is theft at gunpoint" mentality that I find myself reflexively running away from it. You may well be correct that we frame the same thing in different ways, however.

Yeah good example and I see how my phrasing introduced confusion. Sorry about that.

I don't think taxation is theft, but it is done (ultimately) at gunpoint. Hopefully that clears some things up for you.

Taxation is not based on a threat of violence. It's based on a social contract: you live in a society that provides certain benefits, and in return you pay taxes to help pay for those benefits.

And if you try to opt out they'll throw you in prison and if you don't let them they'll farking shoot you. But uhhh no violence involved right?

You can opt out - just don't earn money.

If you're earning money, chances are pretty good you're using those public accommodations.

Yes, wandering the back alleys and eating from garbage cans wholly excluded from the normal flow of human affairs until you die of scurvy is totes a reasonable escape clause to a contract that you never signed but are somehow a party to. Consent is therefore legitimate.

You can't eat from those garbage cans - that's stealing.

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