BILL MOYERS Good evening. I'll Bill Moyers.
Thanks to Gwen Ifill and her guests in Washington.
My first guest tonight is here because of the amazing power
of the Internet.
It was the e-mail heard round he world.
Just days ago, Tamim Ansary wrote a letter to 20 of his friends, he wrote about how he, an American from Afghanistan, felt about last week's attack on New York and Washington, about how Islam is
perceived in America, about
the talk of bombing
Afghanistan back into the
Stone Age. About the Taliban's cruel war
on its own people and about
what Osama bin Laden really wants.
His e-mail struck a nerve. In a few hours it was speeding
around cyberspace, I received
it from no less than 21 people.

TAMIM ANSARY: When you think Taliban, think Nazis, when you think
bin Laden, think Hitler, and when you think the people of
Afghanistan think the Jews and
the concentration camps, it's
not only that the Afghan
people have nothing to do with
this atrocity, they were the
first victims of the
perpetrators.

BM: Thank you for joining me.
Why did you write that letter?

TA: I wrote the letter first of
all because like everybody, as
soon as this thing happened in
New York I was extremely
upset, I was filled with
dread.
And then I was at home and my
wife called me from work and
said you got to call this talk
show and put your voice in
there, because you won't
believe what they're saying.

BM: What were they saying?

TA: So I got in my car and
drove around to listen to it,
and really in some ways, you
can certainly understand the
kind of rage that was being
expressed there, but I heard
phrases like, we should glass
It over.

BM: meaning?

TA: Nuke it until it all melts.

BM: Afghanistan.

TA: Yeah.
And also there was other kinds
of talk along the lines of,
you know, we should put a
barrier around it so they
can't eat or, you know,
various kinds of enraged
comments.
And I realized that most of
those people didn't realize
that Afghanistan is in
terrible shape, has been for a
long time, and is probably in
the worst shape it's ever been
in now.

BM: when you wrote the letter,
did you know it would speed
around the world the way it
did?

TA: I had no idea, no.
And when I came home, I got a
chain letter from one of my
friends, that had nothing in
it to say that was bad.
But just felt like a few
people are going to call me
and say you're from
Afghanistan, what do you
think, so I just wanted to
give my speech.

BM: If anyone wants to read
your letter, where can they
go?

TA: It's on the website, is on
Salon.com and also
Tompaine.com.

BM: I know something about
Tompaine.com. Who do you think was
responsible for the terrorism?

TA: well, before I say anything
about that, I have to preface
it by saying my opinion on
ihat is more or less
worthless.
I don't know.
My speculation is like
anybody's speculation.

BM: How long have you lived in
this country?

TA: 36 years.

BM: So you came from
Afghanistan when you were a
teenager?

TA: Yeah, 16.
I've kept in touch, and in
1980 the Soviets invaded
Afghanistan, and up to them
things were more or less okay.
And from that time on, things
have been getting steadily
worse there.
And from that time on, my
friends, my family, various
people I knew , have been
getting out over the years.
So now they're all out.

BM: What's happened to the
people who have stayed there?

TA: I was just until the
Taliban came over, there was
still some kind of a
recognizeable country.
Just before the Taliban came,
there were various factions
who had beaten the Soviets and
were now fighting over the
scraps of what they had won.
And they were fighting the war
had come right into the city
of Kabul now, and now there
was one faction held this
neighborhood and another
faction held that hotel, and
it was that kind of thing.

BM: Today it's ruled by the
Taliban?

TA: Yeah, but then when the
Taliban came, the bombardment
was much heavier, and now, I
haven't been there, but I've
seen videotapes and it's
really shocking to see a place
that I live and you can just
see nothing but rubble all the
way to the, you know, to the
distant hills.

BM: So when people talk about
bombing Afghanistan back into
the stone age, what goes
through your mind?

TA: One thing that goes through
my mind is that a couple of
years ago, I became aware that
Afghanistan is one of the
places, and there's others,
that is most littered with
land mines.
Along with, I don't know,
perhaps Cambodia and some
other places.
And that every week at that
point, '98, every week three
or four kids were blown up by
some little hung of metal that
they saw.
And what went through my mind
as I imagined, you know, my
own daughter and other kids i
know, the urge to play, you
want to pick up some little
shiny thing, and the idea that
kids were having their limbs
blend off just made me want to
cry.

BM: It's a nation of widows
too, isn't it, two million men
lost their lives against the
Soviets?

TA: Two million men lost their lives, that's the figure I've
heard, lost their lives
against the Soviets.
And during the war the adult
men were in the country
fighting, and those five
million or so refugees that
were outside the country were
the women and children, and
old folks of those families.
It wasn't like whole families
had become refugees.
So I think there is something
about that that is, that has
an impact on the situation.
Because now the people that
lived in the camps, that's a
very distorted and weird
situation, especially for the
kids that are growing up
there.

BM: Why did you say in your
letter, why did you say when
you hear the word Taliban you
think Nazis, and when you hear
the phrase the people of
Afghanistan you think Jews and
concentration camps, why did
you say that?

TA: Of course I didn't mean
that Afghans are Jewish,
they're not that.
But I meant in the sense, with
that last thing, I meant in a
sense that most of the people
in Afghanistan are pretty much
trapped there, they're not
going to get out.
A quarter of the country, I
just read today, something
reprinted from the "New York
Times", a quarter of the
country, about 6 million
people, they think, are now
just trembling on the edge of
dying of starvation.
If I think about being inside
the middle of Afghanistan and
this horror is coming, and
I've decided I'm going to get
out, I know that there's been
so much destruction that
there's not going to be,
you're not going to take your
credit card and stay in a
hotel along the way, you're
not going to get in a car and
go, there's no buses, you're
going to start walking.
and that's like walking from
here to Denver with no money
and no place to get food along
the way.
I don't think I would make it.

BM: And the Taliban is a
totalitarian power, isn't it,
it runs the country with an
iron fist, which is why you
compared it to the Nazis?

TA: It runs the country with an
iron fist and that's part of
why I compared it with the
Nazis.
But the other part of that
that I was thinking about was
that the Taliban, unlike the
Islam that I grew up with and
the muslims that I know, they
have a very narrow and in some
ways very particular and
concrete ideology that's drawn
from an interpretation of the
religion of Islam that is
nothing like what I grew up
with and what my friends grew
up with.
But it's an ideology that i
think has political uses and
depends in part on having an
enemy.

BM: We heard today from some of
the, in Washington, question
have to be that irrational in
our response, blow their
capital from under them.
But Islam doesn't have a
capital, does it?

TA: No.

BM: Is not a political entity?

TA: It's not a political
entity.
And I think there is a romance
of a political entity amongst
some of these Muslim
extremists, because there is a
mythology of, you know, early
Islam when the Islamic empire
was the world super power, at
least regionally, so I think
there has long been a romance
of reconstituting that.

BM: Restoring that to that
perfect islam.

TA: Right.
And of course everybody agrees
that Islamic empire was not
the perfect Islam, but there
is an image of the community
that Mohammed constituted in
Arabia, that's the perfect
Islam.
BM: What do you think, I know
you don't know first hand, but
yhat do you think bin Laden
wants?
What he like to see us start a
war with the Muslim world?

TA: You know, I said that in my
e-mail and I don't know
anything about that, he may or
may not, I don't know.
But the reason I said it is
because it felt to me, and it
feels to me now when I think
about it that that would be
something that would serve his
aims if his aim is, and in
this respect I think he's
spoken of it, if his aim is to
usher in the age when Islam
will, you know, rule the
Earth, everybody will be
Muslims and the society will
be constituted upon the earth.

BM: Since the terrorist attack,
Mr. Ansary, have you been
intimidated or harassed
in this country?
You're an American citizen for
over a quarter century, but
you're from Afghanistan, and
everybody is talking about
bombing Afghanistan back to
the stone age.
Have you been harassed?

TA: I am not, and I'm proud
that nobody has harassed me,
And if others have been I'm
very sorry for that.
But I have to say no I
haven't.

BM: When you pray, you're not
praying to the same god that
terrorists are, are you, or
are you?

TA: You know, if you're a
Muslim, if you're truly a
Muslim you don't think of
praying to a god versus some
other god.
The religion of Islam says,
this is like the, there's only
one God, everybody who prays
to God is praying to the
same God.
That's all I can say on that.
I don't know what they're
thinking.

BM: How does it feel to be an
Afghan American in the last
ten days?

TA: It feels, you know, there's
a layer of dread there, along
with the shock and the fear
And the sorrow for people who
have lost somebody and the
impact of what's happened
here.
There's also the dread that
you get from knowing or
feeling what's coming and that
it's going to be perhaps
really bad, and I can
certainly even now, I can
imagine who is going to
suffer.

BM: And who are they?

TA: You know, even though my
family and relatives are gone
now, I picture my grandmother
in Kabul, there's old women
there and I can picture my
grandmother being somebody
like that and i can picture my
aunts and middle determine
uncle, and Afghans and family
that I know.
And when I think about people
getting blown up or the
violence that's going to come,
I sort of have an image of
particular people, even
though I don't know those
particular people, but it's
not strange to me somehow.

BM: Thank you for joining us.
We'll see you later here on
Channel 13.
Yesterday President Bush went
straight from the Pentagon to
the Islamic Center of
Washington to speak of
reconciliation and tolerance.
He denounced revenge attacks
upon American Muslims.
Here's some of what he had to
say.

PRESIDENT BUSH:The face of terror is not
the true faith of Islam.
That's not what Islam is all
about.
Islam is peace.
These terrorists don't
represent peace.
They represent evil and war.
When we think of Islam we
Think of a faith that brings
comfort to a billion people
around the world.
America counts millions of
Muslims amongst our citizens.
And Muslims make an incredibly
valuable contribution to our
country.
Muslims are doctors, lawyers,
law professors, members of the
military.
Entrepreneurs, shop keepers,
moms and dads.
And they need to be treated
with respect.

BM: My guest now is a Muslim
theologian. Dr. Farid Esack
grew up in South Africa where
there's been a Muslim
Community for over 300 years.
Clutching the Koran, the holy
book of Islam to his breast,
he marched against apartheid
and went to over a thousand
protest meetings to end white
domination of South Africa.
He studied in Pakistan and
Great Britain and is
considered one of the world's
leading interpreters of Islam.
I recommend to you his book,
Being A Muslim.
He's a visiting professor at
Auburn Theological Seminary
here in New York.
Thank you very much for
joining us.

DR. FARID ESACK: Thanks for having me over.

BM: what's the most important
thing that we Americans can
understand today about islam?

FE: That at its core, Islam is
a religion of peace.
And despite the many violent
manifestations in many parts
of the world, that Islam is a
cry, a cry of the
marginalized, a cry of the
unjust, but not a blind rage.
It has at its core the
yearning for peace, the
oneness of people with
themselves and with God.

BM: But the terrorists last
week, they don't fit that
description.
What can you say about their
idea of Islam?

FE: I think that Islam, like
any other religion, is also
open to manipulation, it's
also open to abuse.
It is open to different
interpretations.
I think that it is a
fundamental distinction
between the Protestantism of
say a bishop, and David Koresh
On the other hand or Timothy
McVeigh on the other hand.

BM: Koresh led the cult that
was wiped out in Waco.

FE: Absolutely.

BM: And they did what he did,
with some religious motive.

FE: Absolutely.
But the regime was one that
was motivated by quote, deeply
Christian principles.
But Tutu and Mandela, these
are also Christians.
Islam like any other religion
also lends itself in some ways
to being distorted.
Often when people feel, and i
don't say that they do so
justly, but that all other
avenues have been closed for
them, people use religion to
justify their own angers,
their own vengeance, and it is
regrettable that in this
particular case Islam is a
tool in the hands of people
who are very, very angry, who
are often, in some ways it's,
there has been far more
anti-Muslim or anti-Arab stuff
in other parts of the country
rather than New York.
People compensate for the
absence of the real thing.
So for the absence of religion
of Islam in their lives,
people resort to violence as a
compensation for the fact that
their lives are broken.

BM: But these young men,
apparently, according to the
early reports in the press,
were well educated, they were
many of them from a, like bin
Laden comes from a very
wealthy family.
They're not marginalized.
They seem to be different from
the other terrorists.
What is there in their idea of
Islam that justifies declaring
war on the West and killing
innocent people?

FE: It's also a sense of being
on the edges.
Not only on the edges of their
personal lives, because I
think people need to
understand that very often
it's not a sense of personal
loss, but a sense of being on
the edges, a sense of these
countries where, in
Afghanistan under the Soviets
or in Saudi Arabia under
monarchy or Egypt under a
totalitarian regime, the
complete absence of civil
liberties, the criminalization
of political dissent.
And so when there is an
absence of any means to
articulate your aspirations,
people often resort to
extremism.
The regrettable thing of
course is that we only see the
things that people resort to,
rather than seeing how our own
countries aid and abet those
governments that engage in
these kind of repression
against their own populations.

BM: But given the repression
against their own populations
as you say, the lack of
political freedom in their own
states, why do they need a
foreign enemy?

FE: I'm not so sure.
If one can speak about a
foreign enemy.
The reality is that the
cultures of these people have
been overrun, whether it is in
the forms of McDonald's taking
Over local cuisines or the
monetary systems of these
countries, the sense of social
dysfunction, of a lack of at
oneness with your own culture
and your own community.
There is nothing foreign.
In a world where in we drive
Japanese cars and our cuisine
is italian and our language is
a combination of all sorts of
other influence, there is
nothing other in the world any
more.

BM: I know, but there are
McDonald's in London and the
British aren't bombing the
World Trade Center.
There are McDonald's in Greece
and the Greeks aren't bombing
the World Trade Center.
Help me understand what is
there about this particular,
as you say, minority of
Muslims who are carrying what
is a holy war?

FE: I think it is two things.
The one is, we need to come to
terms with and begin to
understand it.
When your neighbors rejoice in
the burning down of your
house, somebody must ask what
is the nature of my
relationship with my
neighbors.

BM: Give me an example.

FE: For example there is the
rejoicing, however limited, at
the bombing of the Twin Towers
or the Pentagon and there has
been limited though it may be
and isolated though it may be,
but there has been.
During the last Gulf War, 93%
of the African... What is
wrong with a country like the
United States of America when
93% of the African
listenership of the B.B.C.
sees Saddam Hussein as a hero?
So I think that fundamental
questions need to be asked
about the nature of the
dealings of a super power like
this with the rest of the
world.
When you're living in a
country like the United States
that has 4% of the world's
population and utilizes 44% of
the world's resources, that is
bound to engender considerable
amount of anger and resentment
on the part of many other
people in the world.

BM: But what is it that brings
this particular group of bin
Laden if he's involved,
followers to plunge the planes
Into the World Trade Center,
killing themselves, and
thousands of people?
I don't understand that.

FE: In some ways, I'll be
honest about this, there is
also something that they find
justification in religiousity
and Islam.
The notion of martyrdom, the
notion that my own life is of
no consequence in the words of
one of the people that's
alleged to have written this,
my life and my death, my
sacrifice, it is for the sake
of God.
That is the one thing and the
fact that God may reward me in
a year after I destroy the
enemies of God in this life.
There is a sense of martyrdom,
a sense of the insignificance
of this life.

BM: So they could be
susceptible to the
manipulation of a charismatic
leader who promises that
paradise in exchange for this
political act.

FE: Absolutely, but in this
case i think it is problematic
to focus on the whole notion
of the Osama bin Laden as if
he is the figure driving all
Of this.
You know, the notion of there
was a good king once upon a
time, then a bad king came,
and after that a good king
came and everybody lived
happily ever after.
So at one time Qaddafi was the
bad king, then Saddam became
the bad king, and now Osama is
the bad king.
I think things are far more
complex.
The remedy may aggravate the
disease.

BM: So what do you think they
want, what do you think bin
Laden, or the complex group of
people around him, what do you
think they want from last
week?

FE: The recognition that we are
here and we are an important
force and this is revenge,
also for what the United
States has done in whether it
is in Iraq or the repression
of the Egyptian Islamists.
But it can easily turn into a
mythical state that we will
hate a mythical and ideal
state any way in which to
reach that state is through
the means of jihad, through an
armed struggle.
Of course it is simplistic, of
course it is barbaric, it is
mythical to think that we can
recreate a 6th century
straight in our country.
But that kind of
fundamentalism feeds on other
angers and the fact that it
reflects itself in
fundamentalism should not
allow us to defect from the
fact that there is other
angers that may have
legitimate causes.

BM: How should we respond then,
if knowing what you know about
the Muslim world and about the
United States, and I know that
you are a distinct minority
because you believe in
equality for women, you
believe in religious
diversity, you're a liberal in
politics, you marched against
apartheid.
Knowing what you know what
should the West and the United
States do in response to this?

FE: One, to respond to what
happened now, the other is to
respond to the universal
phenomenon of fundamentalism,
and I dare say that there is
fundamentalism in Hinduism,
Christianity and Judaism, and
These are every bit as
malicious as Muslim
fundamentalism.
So what is needed for people
of conscience and people
commited to justice ranging
from environmental justice,
gender justice, is for these
people to get together and
talk to each other in order to
remove the kinds of issues,
the underlying causes that
gives rise to these things or
that creates the issues that
these demons, and that is
really what they are, exploit
in our lives.

BM: Were you ever attracted to
fundamentalism when you were a
young man in South Africa?

FE: Absolutely, I lived for 8
years in a seminary that bred
the Taliban in Pakistan.
I lived there, and let me be
honest with you.
There were times in South
Africa where only black kings
die on the streets and the
white media was oblivious to
it, and we thought how do
we... yes, i do come from
such a background.
Nelson Mandela comes from such
a background.
Nelson Mandela did not go to
jail because he was a
pacifist.
Of course we have grown out of
that, we know that people
aren't like taps that you can
just spur onto violence and
then the revolution is over
and then you turn the taps
off.
We've grown up now, we've
understood a bit of that.
But I must say there are times
that we have yearned for the
death that we experience on
our streets every day that we
were desperate for those
deaths or an awareness of it
to reach whites in South
Africa. Now we know that
violence breeds violence, that
simplistic solutions and that
is why we are desperate that
the kind of rage that people
in the United States are
experiencing, that that rage
should not lead to further
violence, because Osama's
violence has led to violence
for many people in
Afghanistan.
And now if we are going to
respond, I mean, one doesn't
rape rapists.
One doesn't murder murderers.
We respond in a more humane
way.

BM: I hope that you're right
about that.
Thank you very much for
joining me this evening.
I hope you'll join Gwen Ifill
and myself in Washington and
New York for another special
report and conversation
tomorrow night.
I'm Bill Moyers.
Thank you and good night.