Gen 5 The UU Viability Ranking Thread

I'd like to second amoongus for B-Rank. While I haven't played UU in a bit, Scraftyisthebest is spot on with its qualities. Sadly fire types, certain sub-boosting sets (especially steel types), and Xatu cause the mushroom quite the headache which affects its usefulness somewhat.

A possible move, although inferior to doublepowder, for amoongus to use is foul play. This can help against some boosters who use substitute sets, and deal very significant damage to switch-ins. Status is nicer, but late game when clauses and such are in effect, its an interesting option nonetheless.

Azumarill should be considered a pretty decent pokemon, but it shines the best under the rain. I do think its viability it's hampered by the crapload of water types that fight for the same spot on every team, Azumarill may be the best water offense in the tier, but the typing it's often reserved for defensive proposes -or spinning, in Blastoise's case-.

Azumarril isn't BAD, per se, but it's slow and walled by many prominent Pokemon, and it needs a lot of support to function well. In terms of "water type physical sweepers", Kingdra tends to outclass it except for a few particular niches (Focus Punch, Aqua Jet, Choice Band basically). It has a really hard time doing any lasting damage to Slowbro / other Waters as well. Yes there is CB Double-edge, but the annoying thing about Slowbro is that a mispredict doesn't kill it.

For what it's worth, Xatu *can* put up a fight against Froslass with Light Screen and Thunder Wave, but who would seriously want to do that? You can successfully use Xatu in teams, and unlike Azu it's not outclassed per se, it's just not very good at its job. Pretty much every Stealth Rocker can do terrible things to it.

Azumarill definitely deserves B-ranking. Anybody can tell you that a strong Pokemon has its counters, and bulky waters are common counters to many offensive Pokemon. Azumarill has the power to revenge kill with CB Aqua Jet, or take on anybody running from its wrath of cuteness with a coverage move (Superpower, Ice Punch, etc.). It definitely has a cool niche in this metagame. Kingdra is an interesting choice as something that outclasses azu. The problem I see with Kindgra is its need to set up and its subpar coverage. That's not to say azu has bad coverage, as water, ice, fighting is great coverage. Kingdra is also a little more versatile though which sets it apart. They are typically Pokemon used in different niches. Azu works best to break down cores whereas Kingdra tries to set up and sweep. Like I said, everything has its counter and Empoleon can wall Kingdra pretty well (at least the uncommon physically defensive). But let me try to focus on Azu.

Another thing going for Azu is its pretty good bulk for an attacker. 100/80/80 defenses is great for Azu as it gives him the better chance of survivability. With dual screens up, you can switch in on resisted moves with ease. Even though it's predictable, it is very effective at what it does, and is just a solid Pokemon in this meta.

I certainly do agree with Azumarill for B-Rank. As a competent Azumarill user, I'm going to give in here. Azu has a very high Attack stat, and with CB, it can hit decently hard with its Water STAB. It also has Double-Edge and Ice Punch, so Ice Punch can catch the incoming Roserade or Shaymin and OHKO them. Double-Edge does reasonable damage to some bulky Waters bar Slowbro and Qwilfish. Of course Azu has counters, I mean other powerhouses like Bisharp, Mienshao, Chandelure, Scrafty, and Zapdos do too! Azumarill also stands out from Kingdra with its ability to hit hard right off the bat, as opposed to Kingdra, who needs to set up with DD (not saying that Kingdra is bad though, it's just that Azu's immediate power gives it the edge if needed). Azumarill can also utilize CB Aqua Jet to revenge some threats like Nidoking and Chandelure (and Darma, too!). Azumarill has an offensive niche as a core breaker, as previously stated. The nice bulk is also a neat asset.

Ah, I don't know how I forgot about Kingdra when it comes to Water offense, yes, it outclasses Azu so much it isn't even funny! I wonder if it sort of ties with Empoleon, fighting weakness is awful but Empoleon is much better against water types...

Ah, I don't know how I forgot about Kingdra when it comes to Water offense, yes, it outclasses Azu so much it isn't even funny! I wonder if it sort of ties with Empoleon, fighting weakness is awful but Empoleon is much better against water types...

Visual Media Head

Ah, I don't know how I forgot about Kingdra when it comes to Water offense, yes, it outclasses Azu so much it isn't even funny! I wonder if it sort of ties with Empoleon, fighting weakness is awful but Empoleon is much better against water types...

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I don't think Kingdra outclasses Azumaril. Maybe the terminology you're thinking of is 'better than.' Kingdra is definitely better than Azumaril, it has fearsome sweeping abilities from both sides of the spectrum, and can hit hard with a Choice Specs set. However, that isn't what Azumaril is doing. Azumaril is hitting hard off the bat with very powerful physical attacks, as well as revenge killing with Aqua Jet. So Kingdra doesn't really outclass Azumaril, because they aren't serving the same team function. The same thing applies to Empoleon; it is generally a support Pokemon, and the only off the bat attacker is a rare Choice Specs set.

I don't know about you, but I find Empoleon much more useful than Azumarill, even as a Choice user. What is at all bad about a Choice attacker with eleven resistances (including SR) and one immunity that can outrun base 60 walls with minimal investment? Obviously a Specs Hydro Pump is hitting a bit less hard than a Banded Waterfall from Azu, but Azumarill would KILL for a Grass move.

(obviously, you can't *directly* compare a physical and special attacker, but it's still worth talking about i think)

I don't know about you, but I find Empoleon much more useful than Azumarill, even as a Choice user. What is at all bad about a Choice attacker with eleven resistances (including SR) and one immunity that can outrun base 60 walls with minimal investment? Obviously a Specs Hydro Pump is hitting a bit less hard than a Banded Waterfall from Azu, but Azumarill would KILL for a Grass move.

(obviously, you can't *directly* compare a physical and special attacker, but it's still worth talking about i think)

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While I haven't used either, I'm rather surprised you would pick empoleon as a choice user. I mean yes, I can see why it's good with that massive special attack, but there are two big let downs to empoleon in such a role, compared to azumarril.

1. Priority: We might not be like OU when it comes to love of priority attacks, but its importance can't be underestimated here. Being able to scare out fire types is a big plus and can allow for a better choice of move in terms of prediction, whereas empoleon doesn't have this luxury, and needs to be faster than what it can hit hard, which is considerably harder to achieve from a base speed of 60 in such a fast paced metagame. To add to this, azumarril can keep being threatening even at lower amounts of HP despite being usually slower, whereas the loss of HP on empoleon really takes its toll later in the game.

2. Typing: I'd say for empoleon, it's steel typing is more a curse than a blessing in terms of getting switch-in opportunities. Being neutral to the fire moves you'd otherwise want a water type resisting is very bad, especially when you consider all fire types in UU are all going to be faster than you, and expect for chandelure, hit you on your weaker physical side. A weakness to fighting and ground type moves is pretty damn awful as well, since these can also be found on said fire types, and are very common coverage moves in UU in general. While coverage moves can still make it harder for both to switch in, generally azumarril gets the edge here, and can threaten back more promptly as opposed to having to switch multiple times or sack something to get empoleon in, and then lose a large chunk of health to KO the target.

I don't think Kingdra outclasses Azumaril. Maybe the terminology you're thinking of is 'better than.' Kingdra is definitely better than Azumaril, it has fearsome sweeping abilities from both sides of the spectrum, and can hit hard with a Choice Specs set. However, that isn't what Azumaril is doing. Azumaril is hitting hard off the bat with very powerful physical attacks, as well as revenge killing with Aqua Jet. So Kingdra doesn't really outclass Azumaril, because they aren't serving the same team function. The same thing applies to Empoleon; it is generally a support Pokemon, and the only off the bat attacker is a rare Choice Specs set.

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Yes, I didn't really mean outclassing. Kingdra's double resistance is a pretty nice blessing that sets it appart from other water types, I wouldn't say he had the same competition for a spot as Azumarril does either.

whereas empoleon doesn't have this luxury, and needs to be faster than what it can hit hard

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No. No it doesn't. That is not how Choice item users play at all. Choice item users play by coming in, forcing something out, predicting the switch, and using the right attack - ideally one that will also kill the attacker if it stays in and tries for a second weak attack. Azumarill is inherently less able to do this (except on Fire types) due to its lack of a Steel typing and worse defenses.

Have you ever used Specs Slowbro? CB Snorlax? Tell me more about how their low Speed makes them worthless.

Typing: I'd say for empoleon, it's steel typing is more a curse than a blessing in terms of getting switch-in opportunities.

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you have got to be kidding me. more of a curse than a blessing? seriously? weaknesses are so much less important than resistances on a choice item user!!! Resistances are how you bring it in, you expect it to leave play after it attacks (at least in the early to midgame), since it is a Choice user and the opponent should know that by the time you attack once.

While coverage moves can still make it harder for both to switch in, generally azumarril gets the edge here, and can threaten back more promptly as opposed to having to switch multiple times or sack something to get empoleon in, and then lose a large chunk of health to KO the target.

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On the contrary, Empoleon comes in much, MUCH more easily than Azumarill. It is bulkier and has more resistances. That it's weak to Fighting and Ground doesn't affect its ability to come in much - it changes what forces it out. And guess how many Fighting and Ground types in UU enjoy taking a Hydro Pump? None. (well i mean except water absorb quagsire and poliwrath but seriously)

I will apologize for bashing the steel typing, that was poor I do admit, and not recognizing exactly how choice users work. For the record, I prefer all my pokemon to be able to sponge a hit if necessary, though my preference is that certain ones sponge more hits more often.

I have for the record played with specs slowbro, who is superior IMO due to regenerator, giving it much added longevity to both sponge and smash things. As for snorlax, its banded set is getting a lot of use predominantly due to chandelure, and has more bulk to take a variety of hits rather than specific hits. Otherwise I feel it would more predominantly be phazing or maybe cursing, though I do understand your point here.

The speed IS an issue in a fast paced metagame. I am quite aware of steels wonderful resistances/immunity, but this doesn't count for much if you have to take a hit first with no recovery means. You are asking your opponent to basically give you a turn to switch in your empoleon, and make him switch out in fear. For a pokemon with base 60 speed, that makes me think that you are asking quite a lot from your opponent, especially in a meta predominating around fighting types, or fire types with coverage moves of great significance (Think bolt strike victini, superpower/EQ Darm, CC from arcanine). Even special hits would still be hard to take from some 'mons (LO SF Nidoqueen/king earthpower will KO empoleon for example, but azumarril can survive that and KO in return with waterfall). I am quite curious as to when you would be switching empoleon in exactly, because I just do not see when it may come in safely, hence my doubts about its function with lack of speed.

Therein lies the difference between the two pokemon. Azumarril does enable the prediction war easier because of the threat of aqua jet outspeeding and KO'ing, even if only fire types. As the battle draws on, azumarril becomes more threatening simply because pokemon, barring bulky waters, cannot afford to take repeated hits lest they fall into KO range of aqua jet. I'm rather aware of the different roles they play, but you did suggest to offer reasons for one over the other.

As for Bulk, specially defensive, empoleon does have azumarril beat, but I would not be so quick to agree in terms of taking hits physically.

But I suppose I've missed a rather important point about the roles of both pokemon, and that is at what stage of the game they would be more useful in. Empoleon as you say is better early to mid, but late game it will begin to falter when opponents either sack their mons to weaken you for a sweep, or you realise at this point speed is an issue unless you're playing vs stall. As an early wall breaker, I'd much rather slowbro simply because of regenerator, though I would like to stress empoleon is by no means bad (I'd much rather like the thought of torrent, specs boosted hydro-pump myself).

Azumarril on the other hand, can threaten early, mid or late, but especially late when things can be picked off by aqua jet, though it may get slightly less threatening switch-in opportunities. The versatility in when azumarril can threaten makes it a better choice in my mind.

I hope by elaborating, this will make more sense, as I suspect I did not the first time.

There is no doubt that Empoleon has things that Azumarill would love to have, but the two are completely different things. Specs Empoleon and Banded Azu live in completely different worlds basically, the main point for both is being able to force something out. The point is that no matter what anyone says, Azu is a monster on the battlefield and is almost guaranteed to land you a KO. I'm not saying Empoleon isn't strong, but he lacks the power that Azu has and his access to a powerful Aqua Jet is what makes him even more viable to use.

Again, the two are hard to compare, but since you brought it up, I thought I'd add a little more to the pile. Azu is unique in that most other mons cannot do what it can do, despite the presence of other powerful water-typed threats.

I don't get the whole empoleon is bulkier than azumarill crap. None of empoleon's offensive sets invest in defense, at all. While azumarill invests almost always, a huge chunk in HP. Azumarill has the luxury of not having to invest much in speed because of aqua jet. In uu, fighting types run rampant so the steel typing more often than not, is a bit of a hindrance, because it removes the fire type resistance and makes you weak to fighting type attacks. It does have a good typing, but giving it a fighting weakness and an inability to switch into fire attacks is pretty bad. Besides that, empoleon and azu are non-comparable just because of how different they are. Azu deserves B rank.

I will rank Moltres for A because it has nearly no switch ins, and those are Umbreon, Snorlax, Chansey and Rotom-H. These pokemon are the only ones that can handle it dual STAB that is hitting insanely hard. Also Moltres got a nice speed tier, and a massive 125 SAtk stat which pack quite a punch, also having access to Roost makes hes longivety better, and having decent defense stats, and a nice typing which resist fighting bug and fire, but the SR damage kinda let it down. THe only thing Moltres needs by its side is a spinner which shouldnt be that hard to fit in, and a physical attacker that can weaken its few checks. So Moltres is way underused in UU, and I will say it is a close S tier pokemon where I will only say its SR weakness holds it back.

I will rank Moltres for A because it has nearly no switch ins, and those are Umbreon, Snorlax, Chansey and Rotom-H. These pokemon are the only ones that can handle it dual STAB that is hitting insanely hard. Also Moltres got a nice speed tier, and a massive 125 SAtk stat which pack quite a punch, also having access to Roost makes hes longivety better, and having decent defense stats, and a nice typing which resist fighting bug and fire, but the SR damage kinda let it down. THe only thing Moltres needs by its side is a spinner which shouldnt be that hard to fit in, and a physical attacker that can weaken its few checks. So Moltres is way underused in UU, and I will say it is a close S tier pokemon where I will only say its SR weakness holds it back.

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The Pokemon loses 50% to SR, is weak to water and electric, that's a given. But most physical sweepers have stone edge which will OHKO.

It being fire/flying against the Stone Edge using physical sweepers that dominate this meta game severely hurts Moltres. It's not a "check" to most fighting type... And that's almost priority number one.

A is too high. No spinner makes basically anything but a shaman or a Gligar 1 hit kill it, and with a spinner it really doesn't check the tier as much as you liked to think.

I want to bring back up Cresselia, since it seems to have been ignored since I last posted. It really has great defenses, capable of surviving some powerful hits from dangerous attackers. It's not a total sitting duck either, capable of using its bulk for an effective SubCM set. Some calcs from the Honkalculator to show its ridiculous bulk:

There's no way Cresselia is above D-tier in this meta, especially with Moonlight being less reliable than in the past. It simply can't do much of anything but Thunder Wave - SubCM needs several boosts to actually do serious damage to special tanks like Snorlax and Umbreon. Not to mention you can never get perfect coverage with Psychic + any other attack.

There's no way Cresselia is above D-tier in this meta, especially with Moonlight being less reliable than in the past. It simply can't do much of anything but Thunder Wave - SubCM needs several boosts to actually do serious damage to special tanks like Snorlax and Umbreon. Not to mention you can never get perfect coverage with Psychic + any other attack.

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Ahem.

D-Rank is way, way, way too low for Cress. While she isn't quite the best wall ever, she has some things going for it. Her immense bulk allows her to take onslaughts from shit like Heraboss locked into CC, Roserade, Mienshao to some degree, Kingdra, and Azelf. Thunder Wave can cripple an opponent, and SubCM is a decent set if you can remove those special walls from the ring. Cress does need quite a bit of support to work effectively, and she does have quite a few flaws that are to note. I'd say at the very lowest C-Rank is pretty good for Cresselia.

That said, I'd like to bring back up Amoonguss. I'd like to give Amoonguss a B-Rank.. Amoonguss is a solid and useful Pokemon in UU, he has Spore, meaning he essentially neuters an opponent for the entirety of the match. Stun Spore can also cripple an opponent, so the DoublePowder set is easily one of the most annoying things on earth. Clear Smog can stop setup sweepers while Giga Drain can also give Amoonguss the neat way to deal damage and have recovery. Amoonguss also has Regenerator to heal up that HP! Amoonguss also has a nice offensive set that can bring some surprise factor. Overall, Amoonguss is definitely good in this meta so it deserves at least B-Rank.

If we were in a different meta, where Hail was banned, I could see Cresselia being a C-Rank. However, with Hail being re-introduced, and Abomasnow running around on ladder making it more popular than it was before, I can't see Cress going anything above D-Rank. It does have awesome 120/120/130 bulk, but it has absolutely 0 offensive presence without getting a lot of boosts in. Chansey didn't have much of an offensive presence, but it had nearly unlimited support options in 352 HP Wishes, Thunder Wave, Toxic, Softboiled, heck, even Counter for a gimmicky way to get rid of certain physical threats. Cresselia does not support her team to the same level Chansey does. it has Thunder Wave and Toxic. You could use Dual Screens, but most of the Pokemon that appreciate having screens are frail, offensive teams, which Cresselia does not fit well on. You have Lunar Dance as well, but are forced to KO yourself when using it.

Furthermore, of the Pokemon listed as S tier and A Tier, Cresselia can't wall very many of them. Heracross has Megahorn (saying it can wall Heracross locked into CC shouldn't raise its tier. Anything that resists Fighting can do that.), Crobat can use Taunt, SubCM Raikou will use Cress as setup bait. Down in A-Tier, Chandelure, Cofagrigus, Sharpedo, and Weavile have distinct Type advantages over Cresselia. On top of this though, Togekiss can set up and Flinch you to death, Venomoth can either put you to sleep, or set up and threaten to Bug Buzz (or just pass it off to somebody else.), and you can't reliably beat Shaymin between SpDef drops and SubSeed. A handful more of these Pokemon are "walled" but they'll just U-turn or Volt Switch out.

I think the main thing that puts Cresselia at D-Rank though is its typing. In the Mew discussion thread, you heard people talk about how Psychic is decent typing. Offensively, this is true. It hits a majority of UU for neutral damage, and you can use coverage options to hit what you can't. Defensively, though, Psychic is really appalling typing, since you sport weaknesses to many common attacking types in Bug, Dark, and Ghost. I can't see Cresselia going above D-tier because it's supposed to be a defensive Behemoth, but its typing does not support this in any way.

I don't have enough experience with Amoonguss to make any real comments, but between Spore, Clear Smog, and Regenerator, I could certainly understand a B-rank, but I think C-Rank would be more appropriate, since again, it has 0 offensive presence and while Regenerator is good, 114/70/80 defenses are not that great.

I'd actually like to plead a case for Smeargle. Smeargle is the most versatile poke in the game. Its stats aren't anywhere close to respectable, but as a supportmon, it works incredibly well. It is the fastest user of Spore in UU, which allows it the ability to actually create free turns sometimes and even to change the game completely. It requires little support itself because it always runs Sash (a limiting attribute) and has Spore. Things can't set up on it because it can pHaze as well. Whimsicott and Sabeleye, especially the latter, are its only true counters. They are both quite frail and disposed of by other team mates.

I would like to nominate Abomasnow for A-Rank. As someone who has played with hail extensively and successfully, I can confidently say that Abomasnow isn't usually even the Achilles Heel of the team. It has nifty resistances to Ground, Water, Grass and Electric and decent bulk, which give it plenty of opportunities to set up a Substitute and proceed to wear down the opposing team with Leech Seed + residual damage. It is also fairly unpredictable, as it has quite a few effective sets, like Choice Scarf, Choice Band, and even an Expert Belt wall-breaker set.

If we were in a different meta, where Hail was banned, I could see Cresselia being a C-Rank. However, with Hail being re-introduced, and Abomasnow running around on ladder making it more popular than it was before, I can't see Cress going anything above D-Rank. It does have awesome 120/120/130 bulk, but it has absolutely 0 offensive presence without getting a lot of boosts in. Chansey didn't have much of an offensive presence, but it had nearly unlimited support options in 352 HP Wishes, Thunder Wave, Toxic, Softboiled, heck, even Counter for a gimmicky way to get rid of certain physical threats. Cresselia does not support her team to the same level Chansey does. it has Thunder Wave and Toxic. You could use Dual Screens, but most of the Pokemon that appreciate having screens are frail, offensive teams, which Cresselia does not fit well on. You have Lunar Dance as well, but are forced to KO yourself when using it.

Furthermore, of the Pokemon listed as S tier and A Tier, Cresselia can't wall very many of them. Heracross has Megahorn (saying it can wall Heracross locked into CC shouldn't raise its tier. Anything that resists Fighting can do that.), Crobat can use Taunt, SubCM Raikou will use Cress as setup bait. Down in A-Tier, Chandelure, Cofagrigus, Sharpedo, and Weavile have distinct Type advantages over Cresselia. On top of this though, Togekiss can set up and Flinch you to death, Venomoth can either put you to sleep, or set up and threaten to Bug Buzz (or just pass it off to somebody else.), and you can't reliably beat Shaymin between SpDef drops and SubSeed. A handful more of these Pokemon are "walled" but they'll just U-turn or Volt Switch out.

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Meh. I really don't care where Cress goes, but let me just note that from my laddering experience on PS, I have seen almost no hail teams. (It seems like Abomasnow is doomed to fall straight to NU.)

I think the main thing that puts Cresselia at D-Rank though is its typing. In the Mew discussion thread, you heard people talk about how Psychic is decent typing. Offensively, this is true. It hits a majority of UU for neutral damage, and you can use coverage options to hit what you can't. Defensively, though, Psychic is really appalling typing, since you sport weaknesses to many common attacking types in Bug, Dark, and Ghost. I can't see Cresselia going above D-tier because it's supposed to be a defensive Behemoth, but its typing does not support this in any way.

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Meh. I did run Cresselia along with Registeel for a decent core though. Even then, I'm not sure where Cress should go. I do think it's more viable than Dusclops, though.

I don't have enough experience with Amoonguss to make any real comments, but between Spore, Clear Smog, and Regenerator, I could certainly understand a B-rank, but I think C-Rank would be more appropriate, since again, it has 0 offensive presence and while Regenerator is good, 114/70/80 defenses are not that great.

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I don't think you're giving Amoonguss enough credit. It's bulk surely isn't the best alright, but it does have enough bulk to be taking repeated hits, that's for sure. And it has both Spore and Stun Spore, so a Double Powder set can be very annoying and literally cripple a sizable portion of the opposition. It can wear them down, even though it isn't exactly powerful offensively. Regenerator is a great ability too, keeps up HP while switching out. An offensive set is possible, and can work to some success. And of course, AmoonBro is a strong Regen core that can be very successful. I think Amoonguss is a solid B-Rank.

Then again, I do understand that Amoonguss is somewhat of your "blindspot" (never seen nor used). That said, I don't really blame you, Amoonguss is indeed unknowingly rare.

I would like to nominate Abomasnow for A-Rank. As someone who has played with hail extensively and successfully, I can confidently say that Abomasnow isn't usually even the Achilles Heel of the team. It has nifty resistances to Ground, Water, Grass and Electric and decent bulk, which give it plenty of opportunities to set up a Substitute and proceed to wear down the opposing team with Leech Seed + residual damage. It is also fairly unpredictable, as it has quite a few effective sets, like Choice Scarf, Choice Band, and even an Expert Belt wall-breaker set.