Posted
by
timothyon Thursday September 29, 2011 @01:49PM
from the all-space-stations-must-charge-with-micro-usb dept.

wisebabo writes with news from CNN that "China's first space laboratory module launched Thursday, according to state-run media, an important milestone in China's plan to build a space station." The module, known as Tiangong-1, features sleeping areas and exercise equipment. Writes wisebabo: "In another universe (Arthur C. Clarke's 2011), it would be on its way to Europa by now. Anyone know what orbital plane/altitude it's at? Can it be reached by NASA/Soyuz? Are the docking ports compatible? How about the air pressure/breathing mix?"

Will they make sneering faces at each other? Rude hand gestures? Will they "haze" the other space station? Teepee their solar collectors in the night? Will the ISS astronauts pop in from time to time to borrow a cup of sugar? Host a friendly neighborhood barbecue?

"In another universe (Arthur C. Clarke's 2011), it would be on its way to Europa by now.

Clarke naively believed NASA and the U.S. government when they said that the space race WASN'T just a Cold War pissing contest. He never figured in the possibility that once the U.S. had the capability to plant the Stars and Stripes on the moon that funding would be slashed.

<quote><quote><p>"In another universe (Arthur C. Clarke's 2011), it would be on its way to Europa by now.</p></quote>

<p>Clarke naively believed NASA and the U.S. government when they said that the space race WASN'T just a Cold War pissing contest. He never figured in the possibility that once the U.S. had the capability to plant the Stars and Stripes on the moon that funding would be slashed.</p></quote>

A few years ago the funding would have come as soon as China would start adding their military equipment there, too. Ironically, however, now China will just pull the financial rug under the US, or just squeeze those hairy a bit harder.

Why? They have all of Latin America, India and Africa to sell to. It doesn't take long for those countries to catch up the US when economic growth in the US is virtually nil. The US by no means has the largest population in the world, so its economic importance can only shrink over time as others grow. Haven't you noticed how China has been very active signing trade agreements all over South and Central America lately? And with none of those bullshit "sign here but also you have to change your laws to match

We've asked them not to, it kind of buggers up trade over here. But it keeps their workers undercutting ours, and China is riding the gravy train of manufacturing, so they're sticking with it. So even when our currency takes a hit and looks like a terrible investment, China still buys up our debt. Because if our dollar really tanks, theirs will too.

Eventually they'll have to unpin it. Their currency will then suffer some massive fluctuation as it corrects itself

You are a little bit behind [reuters.com] on the news. The Yuan hasn't been pegged [bloomberg.com] to the dollar for a while. The US doesn't like this, but they can no longer stop it. Of course this never makes the mainstream "AMERICA FUCK YEAH" news channels.

War is great for technological development, not so great for all the killing people. The nice thing about the Cold War was that we had all the technological development without that much killing (of course, millions died in the proxy wars). However, the risk of global nuclear war was worse then the benefits of technology.

In most of the sci-fi featuring near-future space travel in the era before we actually went to space it was rare to find an author who even considered that it would be a government monopoly that got us there.

And, bizarrely, this mistake is repeated by modern libertarian/neoliberal space advocates, who are certain that SpaceX and Bigelow can beat the Chinese without any government help at all. This is nothing but fantasy.

Funding was slashed in 1968-'72 because of the increasing cost of the Vietnam War and costs of implementing LBJ's Great Society program. The Democratic Senators who had the power to cut NASA (like Mondale), went out of their way to go after it's funding for the Great Society programs. By the time Nixon took the White House, he ramped up Vietnam to force the North to the peace talks (which worked by late 1972) and the Democrats hated him, so there was very little he could push.

Soviet Union spent most of its budget on welfare (being a socialist state and all), which didn't prevent it from having a developed space program.

China also has state welfare programs such as unemployment insurance and medical care.

You do need a healthy population for it to be productive, and you do need it to be productive to provide the industrial base for space exploration. The problem isn't with social welfare as such, it's about doing it right.

Are you seriously saying that it was social welfare that decimated Soviet economy? Rather than, say, the fact that 75% of it was either direct manufacture or backing infrastructure for the military industrial complex?

There is a historical precedence for going somewhere and then not going back for a while.

The first English colony in North America was established in 1585 at Roanoke, a second voyage there in 1590 found it missing, there was not an attempt by the English to colonize North America again until 1607. And going to North America from western Europe was much, much easier than going from the Earth to the Moon.

So, no second attempt for 17 years. Whereas no-one has been to the moon in nearly 39 years and it looks like even if someone sat down and planned out and funded a mission tomorrow, it would still take a decade to actually happen. So, best case scenario is looking like 50 years from the last Apollo mission to the next moon landing.

It's big and getting bigger, so you can see why I'm hopeful. Plus they seem to like the international spotlight (olympic games were huge for them), so perhaps they'll keep spending on space.

With the US, you just get the feeling people are tired of science. You don't the sense of wonderment about the world. Science seems to be a declining form of entertainment. All simply a vibe I'm getting, of course, nothing I can document.

The Chinese seem willing to spend just enough money on space tech to impress the impressionable.

There, fixed that for you.Seriously, most of the posters on Slashdot are worse than the worst Tea Partiers when it comes to exaggerating facts and events in order to work themselves up into a panic. The fact is, China has just enough of a space program to show the world that they are a Serious Nation and a World Player - and not a Yuan's worth more. They aren't going to the Moon anytime soon, and at the

Trade imbalance? No, not unless you're displeased with the price you paid for Chinese goods, in which case, you shouldn't have paid that price. As long as you're paying the price that a good is worth to get the good, there is no imbalance.

The nice thing about a currency economy is you can trade magical pieces of paper that hold value for real physical objects and services that have value. Dollar bills and numbers in computers are nice and all to have, but they are worthless unless you can exchange them for

It is quite possible to populate the moon. You are just an ignorant jerk who prefers to poo poo everything everyone else pushes for.

No air? Bring some up or make it there from the plentiful water in the polesNo water? Bull shit, we have found enough water on the moon for a baseNo soil? What exactly is the moon made of than?No magnetosphere? So what? Build the habitats underground, and the food production areas in domes.

It benefits many things on Earth, and would provide more living space, and the abil

I know a few astronomers who would give their right testicle to be able to put a telescope somewhere where there is no air and no magnetosphere. And preferably on the far side of the moon to get rid of light from that pesky blue thing in the middle of the sky. Don't write off a "moon base" just yet, there are legitimate uses.

L2 is better and cheaper.
Besides, putting a telescope on the moon is no reason to put people there. Astronomers today largely use remotely controlled telescopes on the other side of the earth just to avoid having to work the night shift.

I read many years ago on Chinese media (can't find the source anymore) when they first launched Shenzhou that the docking port is imported from Russia for the explicit goal of compatibility with other vehicles as the Russian design is now the de factor standard.

I read many years ago on Chinese media (can't find the source anymore) when they first launched Shenzhou that the docking port is imported from Russia for the explicit goal of compatibility with other vehicles as the Russian design is now the de factor standard.

There are several standards right now:- Russia and Europe (Soyuz, Progress, and ATV) use SSVP, which is high impact so I can see why the Chinese avoided it.- The Shuttle used APAS, which is what the Chinese are using to be compatible with ISS. (Originally developed for Soyuz-Apollo, so the Russians have it, but aren't using it.)- The Japanese HTV and current US vehicles (Dragon, Cygnus) don't dock, they berth on the CBMs- Commercial Crew will use ILIDS which is compatible with the actual standard, the Inter

The Type 99 is probably not a match for the M1A2, but my impression is that it's at least equivalent to the T-90 - and why wouldn't it be? The T-90 has been around for a while and sold widely, and the Chinese have had plenty of time to examine it and steal its best ideas. It's also a good 7 tons heavier and you'd think the Chinese were doing something with those tons. Neither tank has much of a combat record, really, with the T-90 only having some anti-infantry activity in

Even though they are unquiet neighbors I think they can't afford to be hostile in the same way as the US and Canada can't be hostile. When you share such a vast land border it's best to be friends because just the cost of policing it in a serious fashion would break both nations.

From my chinese coworkers I got the information that the module is currently in a 350km by 200km orbit at around 45 inclination.The finished station will consist of 3 modules at 20t each and has a designed lifetime of 2 years. It is basically used for testing purposes (docking procedures etc.) and will be manned by a 2-3 man crew with 20 day rotation.

Actually, you've got two different programs mixed up. The Tiangong-1 (the one launched today) will not form a part of the larger space station, and the 2 years lifetime only refers to this experimental module. Also, the Tiangong-1 will first be visited by the unmanned Shenzhou 8 spacecraft (to launch this november), followed by two manned Shenzhou expeditions in 2012. They're only planning to built the 60 ton space station by 2020.

NASA is mostly not in the manufacturing business. Pretty much all NASA hardware has been made by for-profit, publicly traded enterprises and their for-profit subcontractors. There's nothing new to what NASA is doing, except that they are looking for contractors who are leaner and not as wasteful as the legacy big boys.

Their new goal is to let Commercialization take to cost to explore space for profit. Once it happens they plan to jump on as customers.

I'm not sure I'd look at it that way.

I don't see any reason for the US Taxpayer to fund research and development of rockets that will transport people from the ground to LEO. We've spent 50 years doing that. I think that technology can easily be distributed to the private sector and let them compete with each other. It lowers the cost of getting into LEO and the ISS. That's a good thing.

Remember that part of the legacy of the Space Shuttle was that it was going to carry commercial and government payload

Why would the DOD bother to de-orbit a civilian space station in a deniable way?

If they had any interest in doing that sort of thing they'd be doing it already on unmanned satellites. I doubt that they're going to start killing astronauts just to put a damper on space exploration.

And if they just wanted to destroy the thing they don't need some fancy spacecraft - a good old fashioned missile would do the trick.

It's possible that the X37b could be refitted with docking equipment, though it's not manned.

That's unlikely for proper docking, with the port used by the Chinese; APAS looks like it could have problems fitting into the cargo hold of X-37B. And if it would fit, that would be one heck of an exercise in futility (with docking port most likely taking most of space and mass allowance; well, since there would be no need for hard, hermetic seal, I imagine it's possible to come up with much more basic, "dock only" version of APAS...maybe folded one, deployable...overcomplicated; and for what?). Oh, wait

There's actually a "dock only" version of APAS (well, really, its successor, LIDS) in orbit already. The soft capture mechanism, with a LIDS, was attached to the bottom of Hubble on the final servicing mission, so a spacecraft can later dock with Hubble and deoribit it when we're done with it, so we aren't left playing UARS/Skylab roulette.

Ah, good. [1] Frankly, such practice should always be the standard; it's almost like we purposefully did some things in suboptimal way [2] just to give the glorified glider contraption some purpose... while STS was conceptually obsolete before it seriously got onto drawing boards, with automatic docking and routine return of big valuable (actually reused) equipment done since the 60s.

1. Note, I was laughing in that bit mostly from a possible overcomplicated folding version, probably required to fit into

Wouldn't be the first time the Chinese have borrowed space technology from the Russians; the Shenzhou spacecraft is awfully similar to Soyuz. On the other hand, physics are physics, regardless of what country your in, so and there really are only a few useful hull configurations. No one is surprised when a fighter jet looks like externally similar to a Russian or American one.

By the way, the Salyut design is still alive and well. Zvezda, the ISS service module, is a direct decedent. Salyut 6, which you

Its dimensions are somewhere between Progress [wikipedia.org] and Salyut, which makes sense given that it's currently being used like Salyut as a testbed, but will eventually be used like Progress as a resupply craft for a larger station.

On the one hand, they have launched a nice space station.
At the same time, they are gearing up to attack Vietnam and the phillipines, and warning India to steer clear of Others properties that China wants.

The global times is owned by Communist Party. More importantly, the think tank IS an extension of Chinese gov. as well as the party. It is not separate like it is in the west. Therefore when both the party allows this and the 'think thank' states it, then it is semi-official thought. Chances are high that internally, that is what the party is thinking but dares not give up an official statement. THis is their unofficial statement. The second is again an indirect threat. CHinese gov. does not like to give o

The problem would be tracking the debris accurately enough... you have to hold the laser on-target continuously for long a long enough period to cause the desired effect, and unless you are in a similar orbit to the debris, you won't have very much time to do so at all.

The kinds of orbit changes required to line up with such debris is also very expensive (in regards to expended fuel) if you plan to do so to help mitigate that first problem.

I would figure that targeting would occur using a mirror so it's not like you would have to maneuver the complete craft, and one would hit the junk each time it came around till it no longer comes around.

Also the further away from the junk you are the easier it would be for the mirror to target the junk.

I'm mainly looking at the really small space junk for this, not like knocking satellites out of the sky. Paint chips, nuts, and bolts. Little nudges.

That actually makes it worse - you can't detect them until they are close, and any (read: most) that does not share your orbital elements is only going to be in the vicinity for a very very short time (a second or two). Meanwhile, you have to detect it, aim the mirror, compensate for (apparent) motion, and keep the laser on target.

Keep in mind you have to damp the mirror, and since you just moved it so abruptly there is going to be some oscillation for a moment after the initial "acquisition" - by the time

Really? You think Americans created the concept of selling prepared Chinese food to take it home?

Now I'll concede that "American Chinese food" bares little resemblance to the food served in China but I'd be willing to bet that markets in China were selling prepared food before the pilgrims landed on Plymouth Rock.

I should point out that the Chinese response to the 2008 melamine baby formula scandal was three death sentences (two carried out), three life imprisonments and various other criminal charges. So it appears that the Chinese do, in fact, take the poisoning of their children seriously.

What does it matter when they cost 100 times less, and you have thousands and thousands of them? The Chinese have never been afraid of screwing up [wikipedia.org] big time. There are plenty more Chinese. Very blunt, but true. No government anywhere really gives a damn about its people. It gives a damn about staying in power.