Attacked in fast food drive through

This is a discussion on Attacked in fast food drive through within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by TedBeau
OK, here's a question, suppose you do hit this guy in the face, throat, ear box, what ever, assuming your even ...

OK, here's a question, suppose you do hit this guy in the face, throat, ear box, what ever, assuming your even able to get a good punch delivered. The car in front and behind you still have you boxed in. If he keeps coming at you or manages to open your door and drag you out, is the fact that you used hand to hand on this guy at the start of the fight going to mean your now a mutual combatant, and your right to use your gun no longer is protected by law?

That is not mutual combat; mutual combat would be more like a bar fight where two men squire off and then start fighting; when one of them doesn’t try to stand down. In this case the man approached another while he was sitting in a vehicle which makes him the aggressor BUT like I said did the man in the truck provoke the aggressor before a shooting is the question that is going to be asked

To my knowledge there are currently no federal laws governing or restricting the ownership of flame-throwing devices. Some states have laws restricting possession of flamethrowers, but most states have no laws whatsoever concerning flamethrowers. So with a little ingenuity you too can own a flame thrower, but you would have to check with DOT to see if you have to put this Attachment 61362 on your car

you don't have to placard a vehicle carrying under a 1000 lbs. of anything

I'm not sure OC would be ideal here. He is reaching through your window, so you would be spraying inside your car, very likely to get yourself also.

As to the deadly force issue. You know that there are multiple assailants, very agressive, you already attempted to deescalate and retreated to your vehicle(castle). Assailant breaches your castle and begins chocking you. To me, all of this = deadly force.

"As I was taking the slack out of my trigger I saw the springfield xd 40 cal fly by my head from the passenger seat."

Why have You still not explained this. It sounds like you are saying your passenger threw his gun at the assailant.

Aside from that, this is the reason I don't use drive-throughs. I don't like being trapped in there. I have been known to walk through however. If they won't take my order that way, I find another place to eat or wait 'til I get home.

I Like the pepper gel!

I Like the strike to the throat. Be advised-if done using your knuckles, this can crush the larynx, killing him. Another approach is to place a finger or two into the hollow at the base of his throat (the suprasternal notch), then thrust in and down. This technique causes coughing and maybe gagging. Still another choice would be to just slap sideways across his larynx with the ends of your fingers. Again, causing coughing and difficulty breathing.

If you can't reach his throat, just peel ONE of his fingers off of your throat and break it.

Passenger drew and was stretching his arm past my head so if he was gonna shoot he wouldnt get both of us. No guns were thrown.

I Like the strike to the throat. Be advised-if done using your knuckles, this can crush the larynx, killing him. Another approach is to place a finger or two into the hollow at the base of his throat (the suprasternal notch), then thrust in and down. This technique causes coughing and maybe gagging..

Just tried this on myself with my thumb and I started coughing, so this technique works.

Depends on the situation. With an impaired drunk who's not strong enough to complete the task, likely not. The mere fact of a hands-on situation isn't sufficient, according to the statutes in most states. The risk is there, sure, but until there's reasonable belief of loss, it's generally not held to be sufficient.

Still, nobody has to suffer through a beating. It's just that it can become difficult to get everyone to see that a "mere beating" rose to the level of credible threat to life.

The devil's in the details.

And, lest we all forget: the "reasonable man" standards mean that others get to judge our actions. It's not merely what we believe, it's what our peers will believe was reasonable that matters.

What will they tell your wife and kids when the drunk guy got a lucky shot and swung at your temple causing lights out, then kicked you to death while you laid on the floor?

we always say, you might beat the court, but you're still getting the ride!

and remember guys, we all have right to an attorney. it's not always 20,000 later.

what happened to the saying 'i rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6?'

you guys realize that if you have the 'right' to beat him up (punch him back, kick him, strike at his throat) you probably are already breaking the law (battery/agg battery, or called assault in some states) if it wasn't justified? and if it was justified, then you were probably justified in shooting your gun too since you were fighting back in fear of your life.

FWIW, in FL, a throat strike is considered a fatal hit. could change felony battery to aggravated battery.

I'm not real clear on the part above, was this your passenger's weapon?

I'm glad it worked out for you, and I do agree with having non-lethal alternatives.

If I understand this right, you were inside your vehicle in the drivers seat and ordering and this guy came to your open window, reached inside, had one hand on your throat and the other on your shirt? I wasn't there, but my initial thoughts are that I'd smacked him and drove away, and once safe called the police.

As close as you were, and "pistol up level with his face", you had to be very close to him, and it may have been easy for him to get into a scuffle with you and weapon retention, which could have turned ugly, quickly.

Your gas pedal may have been a good option as well. I'm glad you don't have to deal with the aftermath of shooting this guy and deal with the expense and headache of defending yourself in court.

Smacked him and drive away, sounds great until you read the post above. I was boxed in. The suspect was about 6'4" 275lbs but 50 yrs old and drunk. As far as weapons retention. I myself am 6' 235 lbs 32 yrs old and train with COC grippers daily, and my glock is wrapped in skateboard grip tape. Ill fill you full of lead before you get my weapon.

Originally Posted by paaiyan

He reached through the window? A good start would have been opening your door hard to knock him off balance. I'm not trying to knock your handling of the situation. I wasn't there and given where I keep things it probably would have been easier for me to reach my weapon than my OC, and at that range you're going to hit yourself with some of it. I don't know about in Texas, but in OK you'd have been justified due to Castle Doctrine extending to vehicles. The trick is, you'd have been nailed for a weapons charge in all likelihood, because keeping a loaded weapon in your vehicle is not legal without a license.

You didn't die, he didn't die and charges are being filed against him. Works for me.

Here in the great state of Texas loaded weapons concealed is a ok for everyone in your vehicle. No permit needed. The boat ramp we used is a partiuculary bad area but allows a much safer passage out to the jettys avoiding the houston ship channel thats why we were armed.

Originally Posted by barstoolguru

Am I the only one that sees something not right with this? The drunk runs up to the driver and not the passenger and starts to assault him. It could be just coincident or there was more said then we were told.
[/B]so here is the same question the cops, the DA and the jury are going to ask... what was said when the two were at the boat that made this guy want to get out of his car/truck and want to fight?
where they aggressive because they had guns and they knew it?

As far as taking a punch and getting assaulted there is a half a dozen cases in Texas were someone got into a traffic tiff and it ended in a shooting but every one of them resulted in an arrest and a trial... no free rides. So what you have to tell yourself what is going to heal faster a punch in the face or losing 20 grand because you shot someone; Bruised egos heal.
Don’t get into a fight if you can’t handle the end result and if it does happen sounds like he had a little time to grab some PS instead of the gun; it might be a better choice

The man pulled up 90 degrees to us so he couldnt really see the passenger, I was the driver also and he was too stupid (drunk) to see the car in front of us so I guess thats why I caught all the aggression. He jumped out of his vehicle immediately. Now at 22 yrs old I would have went over and pounded his old ass into the concrete with no worries of the law or repercussions or the mans injuries. But at 32 and a productive member of society that isnt how you handle yourself. These days Its bets just to diffuse the situation instead of being thrown into jail. I can assure you that I have and still can handle myself in fights.

Originally Posted by stevem174

Admittedly, I haven't read every post on this thread, so this may have been covered. Many drive throughs are video taped now, so you may have that evidence also.

The whole parking lot is recorded, the moron of a cop (young kid) said they didnt need it, two statements are plenty. All he wanted to talk about was getting a job in a refinery (me), or going to work in the oilfield (my buddy). He also kept asking me if I was sure I wanted to report it. I was very adament about reporting it.

One thing to remember guys this stuff happens extremely fast just a split second. Alot of the I would have done this and that is great, but unless you practice those scenarios I doubt it. The one about mag lites, throat punching etc. You waste that split second grabbing a mag lite instead of pistol then he draws on you. Mag lite would look pretty silly at that point wouldnt it? I was happy about not having to shoot him, who wants to get thrown in jail and go broke fighting some bs charge because some drunk career criminal attacked you? I will defenitely be buying some pepper spray type alternative. Thanks for all the comments.

Also to give you a little background on myself. Im 32 yrs old 6' 235lbs. Not in perfect shape but by no means an easy target. Do not drink at all. Im a lifetime member of both NRA and TSRA and a member of a local shooting club and avid reloader. Currently putting in lots of hrs on pistol in preperation to start shooting IDPA. If Im not working or shooting I will be fishing or hunting. Love to deer hunt rifle, pistols, shotguns, blackpowder, and archery dont matter to me. But my real passion is waterfowl hunting. As you can tell by my handle on this website the breed of dog I hunt is Deutsch Drahthaar. I would say Im not a stranger to guns. I know this is my first post on this website, but am by no means some internet tough guy who just went out and purchased his first pistol.

Thanks for posting the scenario/situation...As far as I'm concerned, wudda been a "good shoot"...TX self defense laws seem to be behind you all the way...Castle doctrine appliles for your vehicle...AOJ applies based on the attack....You attempted to deescalate, could not leave the scene based on positioning...Although things worked out great for you, based on your choices/actions, IMO had you discharged your weapon, you would have been within the law based on your description of the incident....JMO

Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

What will they tell your wife and kids when the drunk guy got a lucky shot and swung at your temple causing lights out, then kicked you to death while you laid on the floor?

That I was murdered. Fecal matter happens, as does luck. And the "reasonableness" standard still exists.

what happened to the saying 'i rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6?'

Still exists, as a saying. But it doesn't change the fact that a person has got to believe death is likely, not merely a remote possibility. It'll depend on the specifics of the circumstances in a given situation, as not all people and situations are equal.

you guys realize that if you have the 'right' to beat him up (punch him back, kick him, strike at his throat) you probably are already breaking the law (battery/agg battery, or called assault in some states) if it wasn't justified? and if it was justified, then you were probably justified in shooting your gun too since you were fighting back in fear of your life.

As you say, justification comes down to the reasonableness of one's actions given the specific circumstances of the situation, not merely "fearing" what might be possible to some in some other circumstances.

As you remind us all, a single strike can indeed result in being knocked unconscious. A hands-on attempt at strangulation is just that: an attempt. It might or might not elevate a given attack to one that has any reasonable likelihood of succeeding. Depends. Agreed though, that if a person does have every legitimate fear of loss of life, then the gloves are off.

The cop was probably right; you would have gone to jail. You might have beaten the charges but never the less you would have gone to jail ($20,000 later). You can protect yourself if you feel your life is in danger but in this case you have to prove it because there is no weapon other than his hands and getting whooped in a drive thru is not imminent danger.

I agree with Mr. Burns when he said he would have gave him a face full of PS and it would hopefully have defused the situation.You just can't shoot someone because you got into a fight. You really need to evaluate your reason to carry if every time you get into a fight you run for a gun and learn to carry a less then lethal weapon and it might save you a lot of cash

there is a number of shootings that where a person is getting beat up at traffic lights and in intersections but most if not all resulted in arrests of the shooter first and then court

PC §9.22. NECESSITY. Conduct is justified if:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the conduct is immediately necessary to avoid imminent harm;(2) the desirability and urgency of avoiding the harm clearly outweigh, according to ordinary standards of reasonableness, the harm sought to be prevented by the law proscribing the conduct; and
(3) a legislative purpose to exclude the justification claimed for the conduct does not otherwise plainly appear.
Subch. C. PROTECTION OF PERSONS
PC §9.31. SELF-DEFENSE- skipped-

PC §9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:(1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or
(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.(b) The actor's belief under Subsection (a)(2) that the deadly force was immediately necessary as described by that subdivision is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:
(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the deadly force was used:
(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;
(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor's habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or
(C) was committing or attempting to commit an offense described by Subsection (a)(2)(B);
(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used; and
(3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used.
(c) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the deadly force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom the
60 TEXAS CONCEALED HANDGUN LAWS
deadly force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at the time the deadly force is used is not required to retreat before using deadly force as described by this section.
(d) For purposes of Subsection (a)(2), in determining whether an actor described by Subsection (c) reasonably believed that the use of
deadly force was necessary, a finder of fact may not consider whether the actor failed to retreat.

here do some reading if you are going to carry you need to understand the law or you are going to do something dumb

In Texas, you were legal to use deadly force. He entered your vehicle through the window and attacked you. Furthermore, he was choking you.

Right here:

The actor's belief under Subsection (a)(2) that the deadly force was immediately necessary as described by that subdivision is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:
(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the deadly force was used:
(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;

When he turned white and backed away, you would be acting illegally to shoot him at that point. He retreated.

The fact that you said we want no fight and walked away showed further intent to avoid conflict.

The perp came back at you.

You could have filled him full of holes at point blank and been no billed.

You are right about the speed of things happening.

Im glad it worked out for you. I am somewhat amazed that you didnt shoot him.

I wonder what made you hold off in the moment? Will you will elaborate on that?

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frederic Bastiat