The Druid Grove

A place for exploration and discussion of all forms of divination, such as Ogham, Tarot, Runes and dowsing.

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I feed mine an organic, NRC- balanced equine mix of grasses, fresh foods and herbs..no grain... (which seems to work for my horse as well).
And, I admit - to some moonbeams - how dull would life be without moonbeams?

Yes, we're talking about whether seers can actually see, or are we all deluded and self-important frauds? rather than how to develop clarity of Inner Vision, which is what the OP asked about.

I see now why you are so concerned to present the role of what you call 'seer' in the light you do, as the opposite of what I think. Does the idea that it might not be any great shakes make you worry that you are a fraud or deluded? I don't think you are a fraud (unless you are charging money for your services above the cost of your expenses) or deluded (any more than I think having a voluntary drug-induced hallucination is deluded), I just think you are attached to the need for calling what you do 'clairvoyance' when there are other less (or at least differently) culturally loaded ways of describing it. I believe a significant number of other humans, enough for it to be as common-as-muck have similar abilities to you, but don't necessarily use the same language, and so don't buy into all the trappings of the 'clairvoyant' label. They live their lives without being afraid of being perceived as frauds or deluded, because they don't advertise their services and they are happy to be ordinary. I am happy that any such gift might be all in my own head, and I am happy to be asked 'what makes me so important' with a wink and a smile by my wise friend Hilary and I don't really care if other people think I am spiritual or not. I don't consult oracular systems very often (like tarot) because I am happy that I can read most situations well enough myself.

What you call 'developing' your gift equally could be seen as placing disproportionate emphasis on it. There is nothing wrong with developing insight and wisdom,and no one here says it isn't, just that some people here don't think it is particularly helpful to try and 'know' the future in any concrete way, and that trying to won't work, because of the nature of time, which is well-studied in the scientific community. All people are capable of developing these kind of skills, just not everyone chooses to use oft-misappropriated terms like 'seer' or 'shaman'. I prefer to think of such abilities as something inherent in everyone, natural, not super-natural, and to use down to earth language and reality-checks (like making sure I am abreast of the real science of consciousness), rather than special language to try and make it sound like it's somehow mysterious, and really amazing.

Also, I think that the original question was about knowing the future, for certain, and then acting as if it were definite. What you are describing that you do is interpret situations and talk/think around them, which is what most accomplished mediums / clairvoyants / seers / illusionists / ordinary people do with life's problems. In Explorer's original reply (which was marvellous) he makes the point that divinatory practice is commonly misunderstood as predicting the future as opposed to understanding the present. Focussing on understanding how things work in this universe, and predicting possible outcomes is not the same as knowing the future, and I think perhaps this distinction has been lost in your last couple of posts (not including the unicorn ones, of course, which I think are very relevant and deeply insightful... )

In Explorer's original reply (which was marvellous) he makes the point that divinatory practice is commonly misunderstood as predicting the future as opposed to understanding the present.

Hi Katie, I agree with this analysis, and like you I don't use a "system" to anticipate events, but I think that the magical and flexible nature of the divination process has got rather lost in your last message. As I'm sure you're well aware the dowsing of the situation (as I characterise it) and the extrapolation of it are a spiritual, hypnotic and heartfelt process, and not only useful for exploring the possible future but understanding the present as well. It attracts all sorts of fakery, ego trippers and dorks I know, but I'm not sure that's a reason to tar all those who celebrate one of life's great gifts with the same brush. It's their risk to take, surely?
V best,
S

For in his morning orisons he loves the sun and the sun loves him. For he is of the tribe of Tiger. Christopher Smart

see now why you are so concerned to present the role of what you call 'seer' in the light you do, as the opposite of what I think. Does the idea that it might not be any great shakes make you worry that you are a fraud or deluded?

None of that makes any sense in my worldview at all,katie. I don't fear that I'm deluded, although for many years I tested myself rigorously - I'm in a place of comfort about my gifts. And still - always - working on my weaker areas. I'm not really "concerned to present" myself any way, I'm simply what I am - and seer is part of it.
I thought this forum was welcoming of people such as myself?

I don't think you are a fraud (unless you are charging money for your services above the cost of your expenses) or deluded (any more than I think having a voluntary drug-induced hallucination is deluded), I just think you are attached to the need for calling what you do 'clairvoyance' when there are other less (or at least differently) culturally loaded ways of describing it.

First, with all due respect, I neither need nor asked for your sanction or judgement on what I call msyelf.
Second, you sure know a lot about a stranger on a message forum, for having read only a small bit about me from my posts.
I had hoped to encounter friendlier, less aggressive people here.

I believe a significant number of other humans, enough for it to be as common-as-muck have similar abilities to you, but don't necessarily use the same language, and so don't buy into all the trappings of the 'clairvoyant' label. They live their lives without being afraid of being perceived as frauds or deluded, because they don't advertise their services and they are happy to be ordinary.

you can call yourself ordinary all you want;I see people as all special and unique, as I've said before, myself included. I make my living as a herbalist and nutritionist and rarely do readings anymore, not that I owe you any kind of an explanation.

I am happy that any such gift might be all in my own head, and I am happy to be asked 'what makes me so important' with a wink and a smile by my wise friend Hilary and I don't really care if other people think I am spiritual or not. I don't consult oracular systems very often (like tarot) because I am happy that I can read most situations well enough myself.

I'm happy for you. I use the tarot 90% of the time for reasons other than divination; you on the other hand, must be very special that you don't need any such oracle.

What you call 'developing' your gift equally could be seen as placing disproportionate emphasis on it.

That quite commonly occurs with beginners, but I am long past that phase. Then again, you could hardly be expected to know anything about me, as instead of spending time getting to know me, you've gone straight onto the attack. Perhaps a little more self reflection in YOUR case is in order?

There is nothing wrong with developing insight and wisdom,and no one here says it isn't, just that some people here don't think it is particularly helpful to try and 'know' the future in any concrete way, and that trying to won't work, because of the nature of time, which is well-studied in the scientific community. All people are capable of developing these kind of skills, just not everyone chooses to use oft-misappropriated terms like 'seer' or 'shaman'. I prefer to think of such abilities as something inherent in everyone, natural, not super-natural, and to use down to earth language and reality-checks (like making sure I am abreast of the real science of consciousness), rather than special language to try and make it sound like it's somehow mysterious, and really amazing.

But, I think it IS mysterious and amazing - am I not allowed to think that? Should you decide for me how I view these unusual (or any) abilities?

It's deeply disappointing to me how one r two people with an attitude problem can ruin an otherwise lovely forums experience for others. I know it well; I run a lively Pagan forum myself. I know how I would handle this sort of aggression if I encountered it there...perhaps it's tolerated here. but you have decided to strike out at ME, instead of discussing the distinction in terms were looking at here. You have the gall to suggest I am fearful of delusion and have some pathetic need to be seen as special - at the same time you exhibit to my mind, a sharklike need to jump all over people whose language or worldview offends you, as mine clearly does.

And yes, I am a seer. yes, I am special in my talents and ordinary in other ways. I believe everyone is special and "ordinary". I see no arrogance in stating what one is skilled in. This is a Druid forum and I am a seer and a healer. If that's hard for some to swallow - TOUGH. I won't be jumped all over by a pair of strangers who really, have no idea who I am or what my gifts are, life is like, or anything other than my choice of descriptor is a personal bugaboo of theirs.

At risk of getting trodden on hard among the flying unicorn hooves I would like to draw attention to Treegod's excellent post elsewhere. I refer to rule 1 especially. There is perfectly good basis for rational debate about clairvoyance without personal reference or acrimony, this is the Arts of the Seer's forum. Surprised it's little me doing this for three hyper experienced pagans, but there you go. Everyone has off days. Let's and start again?
Peace
S

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For in his morning orisons he loves the sun and the sun loves him. For he is of the tribe of Tiger. Christopher Smart

you exhibit to my mind, a sharklike need to jump all over people whose language or worldview offends you, as mine clearly does.

I think language, and how it is used is very important, and I am very interested in how it is formed and used. I spent many many years learning about language and perhaps that isn't immediately apparent, since it isn't something that would be easy to find out about me. I am not the least bit offended by you, your language, or your world view. I like the lively debate and challenging nature of the DHP forum and have very much enjoyed discussions here over the years. There are many sharp thinkers in OBOD, and widely varying opinions. This thread is particularly interesting because it throws up the real issue of whether the future is fixed and knowable and/or changeable. A very real linguistic minefield which I am picking my way though, like everyone else. And like everyone else here, I am not perfect.

I fully uphold your right to find things amazing and such, but I also think we need to be really clear in our meanings when we discuss things here, and question how we use words. All too often people latch on to buzz words and linguistic fashions without thinking about the meaning, origin and undertones they carry, and one of my 'gifts' (I hesitate to call it so myself, but I am attempting to be understood here), which I have developed (or is that over emphasised, you choose) is to examine how people use words, and sometimes to challenge them.

Personally, I love this forum - it's been the one place where it has been possible to meet and learn from folks around the world and feel comfortable doing so. I have had the pleasure of meeting lots of members from here over the years at various OBOD events and no-one has ever called me hostile! We even invited people from here I had never met to our wedding! I've seen much more heated debates here than this one - really, I have, and if I have ever been accused of anything here, it is usually of being too fluffy and idealistic, usually by DJ Drood, who I suggest you don't engage in conversation, if you find me difficult! Ain't that right DJ

If you want to know how un-hostile I really am, I suggest you PM me your address and I will send you something that might give you a better insight into who I am than a random discussion on a forum. You can't say fairer than that. And if you like, I'll happily let you do a reading for me. Of course, you are free to not give me that opportunity, and leave this discussion with completely the wrong impression of me.

Personally, I love this forum - it's been the one place where it has been possible to meet and learn from folks around the world and feel comfortable doing so. I have had the pleasure of meeting lots of members from here over the years at various OBOD events and no-one has ever called me hostile! We even invited people from here I had never met to our wedding! I've seen much more heated debates here than this one - really, I have, and if I have ever been accused of anything here, it is usually of being too fluffy and idealistic, usually by DJ Drood, who I suggest you don't engage in conversation, if you find me difficult! Ain't that right DJ

I find assumptions, condescension and psychological labeling all very offensive, no matter who they come from. If DJ Drood doesn't treat me in such a way, we'll get along fine.

If you want to know how un-hostile I really am, I suggest you PM me your address and I will send you something that might give you a better insight into who I am than a random discussion on a forum. You can't say fairer than that. And if you like, I'll happily let you do a reading for me. Of course, you are free to not give me that opportunity, and leave this discussion with completely the wrong impression of me.

I do agree that any further back and forth with regard to this conflict, should be kept to PM.

I've seen much more heated debates here than this one - really, I have, and if I have ever been accused of anything here, it is usually of being too fluffy and idealistic, usually by DJ Drood, who I suggest you don't engage in conversation, if you find me difficult! Ain't that right DJ

Quite. (btw, I don't really think you are too fluffy and idealistic....I used to like to "debate" more than I do now...I've mellowed..or perhaps grown phlegmatic.)

I find assumptions, condescension and psychological labeling all very offensive, no matter who they come from. If DJ Drood doesn't treat me in such a way, we'll get along fine.

All too often people latch on to buzz words and linguistic fashions without thinking about the meaning, origin and undertones they carry, and one of my 'gifts' (I hesitate to call it so myself, but I am attempting to be understood here), which I have developed (or is that over emphasised, you choose) is to examine how people use words, and sometimes to challenge them.

And please keep doing what you do Katie! We need more sharp minds and less self proclaimed prophets.

What I often try to do is saying what I mean in totally different words, to see if I can still grasp the real meaning of what I am saying/thinking, or if I am just coughing hollow words into the cosmos.

I have this horrible anti-spiritual ultra-rational very intelligent best friend who keeps me very sharp that way. As long as I can genuinly explain and express what I mean, in normal mundane words that he can understand, then I am fine. Then he understands what I say, and even agrees with me to a great extend.
But when I would only remotely display a grand attitude of proclaiming myself a wise seer, gifted healer and humble teacher, then he would wrestle me into the mud for some painful lessons in humility. And for good reason also. (Feranaja, there is perhaps some advice for you in here).

And to add some perspective...
I usually do not take sharp debates that personal anymore, because by now I met most of my former discussion 'opponents' (including Corwen), and they are all great folks. (And believe me, Katie isn't hostile).

Greetings!
This is an interesting thread, and I must admit I don't know the "correct" answer; however, this is what rings true for me. Before I joined OBOD I had a premonition that a very good friend of mine would die on his motorcycle if he didn't quit being so careless. During the premonition I felt physically ill. My friend died in a motorcycle accident a week later, and this incident changed my life. Unfortunately, it did not change for the better.
Precognitive gifts run deeply in my family, and I've been taught never to take anything for granted still it is also best to keep things in perspective. When my friend died I thought I should have done something to save him, and I let this feeling turn into destructive guilt and paranoia. I became so obsessed with my "visions" that I was missing out on the important things in life.
Are my visions always correct? No they are not, but that doesn't mean I ignore them either. I just don't let these "visions" control my life. I am cautious when I need to be, and I also remember that I don't control the universe. I am only a small part of the big picture.
May you find some wisdom in this.
Bright Blessings to you!
Willowen

"The Way itself is a strengthening of spirit, a growing closer to the balance that governs the world. Progress is slow along the Way, but every step of the journey is like a note in the oldest tune of all. When you have the tune complete, you complete yourself." from Moonheart by Charles De Lint

But when I would only remotely display a grand attitude of proclaiming myself a wise seer, gifted healer and humble teacher, then he would wrestle me into the mud for some painful lessons in humility. And for good reason also. (Feranaja, there is perhaps some advice for you in here).

I'm so very shocked that people have taken my words as pompous and self-aggrandizing. I will look over what I have written to try and see it. I started struggling with the same glimpses of vision the OP mentioned, at an early age; went through years of thinking myself mentally ill, all kinds of therapy,much soul-searching - and eventually took training to help understand and work with, instead of fighting it. I did NOT intend to declare myself a prophet, a "wise and gifted seer' - simply someone who has studied and practised various magical arts for many years and has some skill with tarot, and bouts of dreaming that foretells events to come. I thought the term for those skills was "seer" - and I tend to think all this grandiosity people are ascribing to me is read in, because it surely does not come from my view of myself. I am very proud of the work I do and the commitment I bring to it; at the same time, I am a lifelong student, and always eager to learn from others.
I simply thought I could offer some insights and ideas to the OP, as I've been through much of what was described.

I offered my presence here at this forum because I am hungry for community of like-minded people; evidently, I've come across as an arrogant snob. It's true i am NOT a clever, sharp mind like katie.; I read tarot, I work with plant medicine and animal spirits, I am a true Romantic. I am however, pretty sure I've been badly misread, if people feel a "lesson in humility" is called for by me. Following severla personal tragedies and at a fairly advanced age I am struggling to take ownership of the things I do well, and find a space where it's fine to be who I am.

So, I bid you guys adieu. At least for a time; life is too short and the heart too weary to face these kinds of remarks on a regular basis. Be well, people, be well.
fera

Is it possible that in some cases, visions or premonitions are a manifestation of insight and experience? For instance, as a hypothetical example, your cousin is an alcoholic who routinely binge drinks alone in his apartment, smoking. You have a dream or a vision that he dies in a fire, and sure enough, a month later his apartment burns. Did your mind weigh the evidence, cross-reference it with your knowledge that people who engage in this activity are at risk, and then present it to your consciousness in the form of a dream, either nocturnal or a vivid daydream, or as a strong feeling? And indeed, some people may have a refined ability to take in data and then experience insight as a "premonition". This gift could also work on a grander scale...maybe I have a strong vision or dream that there will be a bomb blast in a city. I've watched the news, read things online, talked to people who have traveled to the area, and even if it wasn't something that was at the front of my mind, I suddenly have an "a-ha" moment where all the pieces fall into place and I get a flash of insight into what is about to happen. If it doesn't happen, I forget about it, but if it does, it reinforces that eerie feeling that I've seen into the future...and, indeed I did, using my senses and intelligence, perhaps in a way that I wasn't entirely aware of.

I'm not poo pooing peoples talents for this sort of thing, just trying to think of an explanation that even a hard rationalist might accept.

In Explorer's original reply (which was marvellous) he makes the point that divinatory practice is commonly misunderstood as predicting the future as opposed to understanding the present.

...the dowsing of the situation (as I characterise it) and the extrapolation of it are a spiritual, hypnotic and heartfelt process, and not only useful for exploring the possible future but understanding the present as well. S

Is it possible that in some cases, visions or premonitions are a manifestation of insight and experience?

This kind of sums it up for me- a rationalist and yet often a romantic daydreamer. It's not an overtly rational process, and there are a great many things which can be done to order the thoughts in a meditative non-rational way. Tarot. Watching the meniscus of a bowl. Closing the eyes. Listening to the speech of birds. Divination can be understood rationally in this kind by thinking theta waves in the brain or somesuch, but the process is still mysterious, and magical too because of the essential feeling, animal element. I don't see why allowing the feeling self to tell us things can't be called magic. Maybe that's what all magic ultimately relies on.

Perhaps it can be done better by some than others. Then we're back to the original question of whether it can be trusted. Good post D J Droood. Thanks.
S

For in his morning orisons he loves the sun and the sun loves him. For he is of the tribe of Tiger. Christopher Smart

This statement has drawn a good amount of skepticism from some other posters.

But when I look up at the area of the forum that this post by Nachtfalke is in, I notice that it is called Arts of the Seer.

To me, the title of this particular forum presupposes that discussion here will, in general, be sympathetic to a belief in seership.
Because of that, I can't help thinking that the skepticism here is misplaced.

Nachtfalke hasn't been able to find the answers she was looking for because this discussion, which is entirely appropriate for this forum, has had the rug pulled out from underneath it.

A more appropriate forum for discussion of the type that this post has actually veered off topic into would be The Skeptical Druid, I think.

This statement has drawn a good amount of skepticism from some other posters.

But when I look up at the area of the forum that this post by Nachtfalke is in, I notice that it is called Arts of the Seer.

To me, the title of this particular forum presupposes that discussion here will, in general, be sympathetic to a belief in seership.
Because of that, I can't help thinking that the skepticism here is misplaced.

Thank you for saying this, I was going to mention the name of the forum but I really don't want to prolong any arguing. I suppose I thought it was a given, that seership was ok to discuss here.

Nachtfalke hasn't been able to find the answers she was looking for because this discussion, which is entirely appropriate for this forum, has had the rug pulled out from underneath it.

FWIW I did send some ideas in PM, hopefully helpful.

I thought some really good points were raised about the nature of clairvoyance,like Drood's last post -but some of them very challenging and personal. It would be good if in this forum, we could talk about seership without fear of being asked to prove it, or being labelled in unpleasant and unflattering ways.
On other forums, I hate it when people make a big stew about "I'M LEAVING" and then don't - but I have to say, I've had some very sweet PMs and I like it it here, aside from this one scenario. I may be a little hyper sensitive right now as well. Can we move along from the conflict?

Welcome return Feranaja
very interested to read what you may have to say to Nachtfalke. I hope to benefit also, despite being a partial sceptic and definite rationalist. There's always more to learn.
S

For in his morning orisons he loves the sun and the sun loves him. For he is of the tribe of Tiger. Christopher Smart