Thanks for another great thread, Slayer. So many good points have been made already.

The whole thing is like a multi-dimensional chess game...that's really the closest analogy because each type of relationship adds another dimenson
and they all interlock. It's a mistake to think of Pakistan as having any kind of unified policy drive...corruption is so rife and you have all these
different power blocks jostling for power...it is a failed state by most reasonable definitions of the word. China, too, is less a unified bloc than
most people realize. Within China you have the PLA and the Communist Party perpetually seasawing with each other, jockying for power, and the
emergence of business might has tossed another spanner into the works. Conventional Western analyses of China usually assume that Chinese policy is
much more intentional than it is much of the time...like many other places, policy outcomes there are often arrived at through compromises among
different power blocs. There are economic interests in China that are wanting to reach out to Pakistan, and they must compete with military and
political needs in China, as well as what benefits different people at the regional level, etc.

Thanks SLAYER, I apologize for not been reading into the thread but I have been very busy lately to be full time in ATS I have read some very good
post about the situation of China and pakistan, to tell you the truth I never tought that China will allow their internal affairs to be expoused to
the media as the OP article very well describe the struggles going on in parts of china.

Very interesting to see that China like any other nation are not excluded when it comes to terrorism and foreign incursions in their lands.

One thing I ran a cross and it is an eye opener for, you that think that the war on terror is not WW3 and could make the next NATO US Pakistan attack
an attack on China is this www.officialwire.com... from the link

The Pakistani and Chinese
attack choppers swoop low across the valley, strafing a mock terrorist hideout and a bomb-making factory. Then a joint commando team storms the camp
— to the gentle applause of top brass from both nations watching from the stands.

The fact that such a drill is needed reflects a new concern troubling their long-standing alliance: Chinese militants along the Afghan border
allegedly aiding separatism in China and plotting terrorist attacks there

or China troops , the counter part of the US CIA?? read this again

Chinese militants along the Afghan border allegedly aiding separatism in China and plotting terrorist attacks there

now this could go in so
many directions it is not funny, lets say thees Chinese militants along the Afghan border allegedly aiding separatism in China and plotting terrorist
attacks there are Taliban, dressing up as Chinese troops, then are killed by NATO/ US forces What then? whole new spin on things , head line could
read "US kills Chinese troops, in Pakistan"
and this is the first i have herd of Taliban in China, so it is a world war on terrorism after all China Pakistan, US/ NATO India Afghanistan Turkey,
Russia Iran Syria, Egypt Libya UAE South Africa, and Israel.

Basically from what I am reading, China is having issues with some of the Xinjiang border areas near (Pakistan) and with some of the people who
populate Urumqi the Muslim Uyghur's and some of the Chinese HAN. With that it seems data is coming out that Pakistan is saying they have these groups
under control but they really do not. And by the Pakistan gov. saying they have these groups under control China is taking a stance that between
China and Pakistan the issues with these groups will be dissolved. AND THAT NO OTHER GOV. (US) SHOULD GET INVOLVED? This can be understood the -we
don't want any US military/Intelligence/Spy involvement in the CHINA region from China-- 1 can understand their position.

The issue is that first* the US has tried to work with Pakistan over the years with the control and monitoring of the Taliban, who were said to be
assistants of the global Alkied terror network. And I remember the US sending a few billion over to Pakistan to MUSHARRAF to help aid in the capture
of UBL or OBL however you recognize this entity the former leader of Alkied. And basically it seemed as if the money went NO WHERE I am stating this
from a non political view of the people in the REAL KNOW for I am not that specific group so I don't know what really goes down behind the scenes.
But it seemed like the money went no where. With that it seemed that Pakistan still struggled from that point on with taking care of their side of
the bargain with the West -it really seemed like a joke overall especially with the control of the gov there and then finding the supposed OBL or UBL
in the northern region of the very GOV supposed to be helping the US find him. ???? SO that just verified more GAMES BEING PLAYED POSSIBLY BY THE IN
THE KNOW FOLX-SMH.. So what happens is the ?US tried to work with Pakistan to secure their AGENDA and Pakistan seems to have their own. So in the
end the Taliban and or Alkied remained strong in the Pakistan region a region with Launch able NUKES already prepared. So 1 can understand why the US
if there was a hidden agenda wanted that region secure and can also understand why China would want the region stable as well. KEEPING IN MIND FROM A
VIEW OF 1 NOT IN THE INTELLIGENCE LEVEL OF THOSE IN THE KNOW FOR A GAME, A GLOBAL GAME CAN BE BEING PLAYED AGAINST THE MEEK* BY THE RICH who control
***currently???

Anyway now you got China going at it trying to stabilize the capital city Urumqi of northwestern Xinjiang province bordering the unstable nuclear
Pakistan Northeast region and they seem to be coming upon similar issues with Pakistan with sending financial aid and supports in with hope to see
some form of assistance from Pakistan and basically Pakistan is doing the same thing saying one thing but not falling thru with their part of the
deal, and China as does the US is keeping in mind the nuclear capable region and wants to resolve the issues as well. Normally , well as normal as
this can get China would be expected to handle their business and secure the region and the issue causers there that is effecting the GOV of Chinas
AGENDA.

BUT since there are nuclear arms on the table with this region, 1 would think the US and CHINA would or could PUT THEIR ISSUES A SIDE and work as a
team to keep this from becoming a SERIOUS PROBLEM FOR THE ENTIRE EARTH A NUCLEAR PROBLEM??? So with that my hopes are that these current 2 super
powers China and the US and any others work as 1 to close this issue. This doesn't mean go in and just KILL all the rebels but find a way to keep the
nukes from going off into the wrong hands. And if the US special team sees the danger and takes the risk of upsetting China all while stopping the
nukes from reaching the wrong hands then China needs to be supportive and recognize the US is trying to help prevent CHAOS. And not take it as an
attack on the CHINESE gov. This is where SLAYER69 I can see the danger of nuclear war becoming a reality and hope these 2 govs the US and China can
operate in a cooperative manner and defuse the issue.

Now imagine behind the scenes there was a terror super mind group or groups who sees the opportunity to have these 2 super powers US and CHINA go at
it toe to toe, knowing with them both destabilized the* the super terror mind group ALSO PART OF A LARGER GLOBAL GOV. PROXY???? can now move in and
take the CHESS BOARD. So I hope China and US are smart enough to keep this in mind as they flex their strengths and influences in the region of
concern. AGAIN THIS IS FROM A POV. OF 1 HOPING THERE IS NO BEHIND THE SCENES GLOBAL GOV. PLAY WITH THE GENERAL POPULATION.
Interesting well thought out thread my friend SLAYER69

Thanks for the Invite
I haven't really payed much attention on the China issue. Maybe I should have. But since you took the time to invite me, I take the time to respond to
the best of my abilities.
I did check out a couple of issues concerning Australia and Uganda. I dunno, maybe I have a narrow minded view on this but it looks to me that the US
and their freinds want to prevent Chinas natural resource grab. And I think Africa is the key.
Us troops in Australia directly under Africa. Quick access/quick responce as a mesure for counterinsurgency against China?

Remember the US sent 100 "advisers" to Souther Suddan to help fight the North, right? But they ended up in Uganda and the Congo. What's in Uganda?
China natural resource grab. Oil and minerals.

I think China's plan is the same as the US. Clear a path to the money. I think Lybia was part of that plan. If you look at a map of the Middle east
and cross out the countries that both the US and China have stakes in, I'm pretty sure you'll see a patern emerge. Any way, that's pretty much all I
have for now. What say you?

I just wanted to add some more info about China I left out in my last post. China has constantly griped at the US for what it perceives as meddeling
in affairs they dont belong in. We overlooked the island of Guam, located in the Mariana Island group.

China has territorial claims on Guam as well as some other islands out in the Pacific way beyond Japan and the Phillipines. So the US does have a need
to be involved, since Guam is a US commonwealth.

ASAT
Main article: The People's Republic of China's Anti-Satellite (ASAT) Program
The PLA has started the development of an anti-ballistic and anti-satellite system in the 1960s, code named Project 640, including ground based
lasers, and anti-satellite missiles. On 11 January 2007 China conducted a successful test of an anti-satellite missile, with an SC-19 class KKV.Space-based system
The PLA has deployed a number of space-based systems for military purposes, including the imagery intelligence satellite systems like the ZiYan
series, and the militarily designated JianBing series, synthetic aperture satellites (SAR) such as JianBing-5, BeiDou satellite navigation network,
and secured communication satellites with FENGHUO-1. Manned spaceflight
The PLA is responsible for the Chinese space program. To date, all the participants have been selected from members of the PLA Air Force. China became
the third country in the world to have sent a man into space by its own means with the flight of Yang Liwei aboard the Shenzhou 5 spacecraft on 15
October 2003 and the flight of Fei Junlong and Nie Haisheng aboard Shenzhou 6 on 12 October 2005 and Zhai Zhigang, Liu Boming, and Jing Haipeng aboard
Shenzhou 7 on 25 September 2008. Missile technology control regime
While not formally joining the regime, in March 1992, China undertook to abide by the guidelines and parameters of the Missile Technology Control
Regime (MTCR), the multinational effort to restrict the proliferation of missiles capable of delivering weapons of mass destruction. China reaffirmed
this commitment in 1994 and pledged not to transfer MTCR-class ground-to-ground missiles. In November 2000, China committed to not assist in any way
the development by other countries of MTCR-class missiles. Letter of A Q Khan (Pakistani Scientist) has revealed of violations by sharing missile and
nuclear technology with Pakistan's whose long range missile ghauri is similar to that of China's Missiles. Cruise missiles
The CJ-10, one of China's newer long-range land attack cruise missiles, made its first public appearance during the military parade on the 60th
Anniversary of the People's Republic of China; the DH-10, CJ-10, and other missiles represents the next generation in missile technology in the PLA
and the drive towards modernizing the capability of the PLA. Laser weapons
China has been reported to have engaged in laser weapons research, but there have been no reliable sources of information regarding the state, or
nature of these weapons systems. Speculation from some sources have suggested incredibly varied programs of development, such as anti-missile,
anti-personnel, and anti-satellite applications.China may be able to blind and disable satellites with ground-based lasers. Land mines
China's attitude towards limiting the use of land mines is still unclear. However, it has stopped production as of 2003, due to the "China's
peaceful rise" policy. Rail Guns
A photo of what may be an early PLA rail gun suggests that the PLA is investing heavily in this sector. Hypersonic Vehicles
The PLA has tested two types of hypersonic space vehicles, the Shenglong Spaceplane and a new one built by Chengdu Aircraft Corporation. Developing Weapons
According to the Pentagon, China is currently developing kinetic-energy weapons, high-powered lasers, high-powered microwave weapons, particle-beam
weapons, and electromagnetic pulse weapons with its increase of military fundings.

Originally posted by Militarywarfare
Fear the rising dragon................

[COLOR=BLACK]
FEARLESS ---THERE ARE MORE THEN JUST CHINA DRAGON ALWAYS HAVE BEEN THE END RESULT IS NO ONE WINS BUT NATAS THE DARK DRAGON.... THAT IS UNTIL

[/COLOR]

edit on 11/28/11 by Ophiuchus 13 because: (no reason given)

And about China military budget, military spending in China has grown about 10 percent annually over the last 15 years.The Chinese government's
published 2011 military budget is about US$ 100 billion, the second largest in the world and up about 12.7 % percent from 2010 (US$ 87 billion), but
still nearly seven times smaller than the U.S.'s. This figure would mean that for 2011, China's military expenditure as a percentage of GDP would be
1.4%.
Bob Gates has urged China to be more transparent about its military capabilities and intentions and Chinese state media has agreed that there is a
need to "communicate more often and more effectively" about the issue.
The International Institute for Strategic Studies in a 2011 report argued that if spending trends continue China will achieve military equality with
the United States in 15-20 years.

You may laugh now, but in 20 years, it will be China who will have the last laugh...

Oh yeah thats right, the middle east was a very stable place before Iraq wasn't it, so was afganistan before 2001 the middle east was and alway has
always been a very unstable place you fool, perfect breading ground for people with such extremist views to emerge, I'm not going to deny Oil helped
pay some bills, but if your suggesting the whole thing was just about an oil grab maybe you need to look at the price of petrol at your local pump or
the state of the economy

Not to mention Israel being located there and being attacked from all sides over the past 30yrs who is a close allied country, why always the middle
east hmmmm?

Not to mention those extremist group who started murdering innocent civillians on our streets, that hail from the peaceful nation of Afghanistan, hmm
why always the middle east?

perhaps you could point out a more troubled spot on the globe for me? just so we can get an idea of "hmmm why always the middle east"

Look at all the protest that are happening YET AGAIN HMM WHY ONLY IN THE MIDDLE EAST???

Why? i don't understand why all these people are protesting in the middle east THIS MUST BE DUE TO OIL, there more oil there and there more protest
there & suicide bombers daily yearly milleniumly in the middle east because its peaceful & has lots of oil,

Is Oil the solution to everything ?

Now.. Korea, apart from the obvious what are you pointing out about Korea? the US Had 37.000 troops stationed over there last time i checked its been
drastically reduced today for obvious reason,

One thing i notice with all you oil grabbing conspiracy theorists is you only EVER mention Iraq, anything else then you set about to figuer out how
oil could be involved LOL

So what about THE FIRST GULF WAR? OIL? OIL? or did they just bomb them the first time make piece the then come up with a cunning plan to blow up there
own people in order to go back and take the OIL? hmmm more hmmms

Ok what about these war/operation OIL RESOURCES TO ?

Yemen?

Afghanistan ?

Libya ?

Sierra Leone ?

Kosovo ?

Northern Ireland?

Vietnam ?

All other wars /operations which i can't be bothered to list? has every war in the past 100 years been about oil?

When are you people going to realise every war/operation has its own very unique reasoning & agenda behind it, in your little world every war there
has ever been has been about OIL, next you will be telling me the crusades was about oil, get a grip,

Im sorry, but iraq was alot more stable when saddam was in charge. Now its a complete mess with many people dying daily. So, what was the point of
america going in there? We all know that it was an illegal war, but they were desperate, just like they are desperate to get into iran. You don't see
us being desperate to go and help other countries in need outside the middle east, why is that?

Don't you find this strange? Im not saying the whole iraq thing was for oil. What i will say is this could be just part of what they want to do in
the middle east. As for north korea. Having a few soldiers stationed near there is not exactly helping the north korean people, is it

You mention thoughs other countries. Lets take a look at Vietnam, another pointless war where thousands died for what? Arms race? Do you really think
that your government cares about their soldiers, do you really think that?

You read my post an instantly put me in a group. Like i said before, i never said that we went into iraq just for oil. It seems to me that there is a
bigger plan going on here with the middle east. And the perfect excuse is terrorist. Thats the reason why we started an illegal war with iraq, and
thats why we have putted our noses into so many countries in the middle east.

I say we because the uk are so far up americas bums, that we basically do what you do, right or wrong. But as mr blair is finding out, justice will
catch up with you in the end.

If china wants to play in the world of cold war , let them , we need something to get the economy going, If a cold war is the way then by all means do
it, just one little problem where does the funding come from? Tax payers? the Gov? the 1%? no one wants to pay a dime , let alone a red cent more for
anything, My point is China just might win, so could Russia, with out one shot being fired, all because of a red cent, or the lack there of.

it seems the heat just got turned up a notch"Pakistan's prime minister warns United States, here is the link
www.cnn.com... and if you need proof the Taliban are calling the shots in
Pakistan read this from the link

Tensions among Pakistan, Afghanistan and the United States jumped a notch Monday, with Pakistan's prime minister
warning there would be "no more business as usual" with Washington after NATO aircraft killed two dozen Pakistan troops.

The Pakistani Taliban urged Pakistan to respond in kind to the airstrike, which NATO called a "tragic unintended" event.

did you miss it? here
it is again

The Pakistani Taliban urged Pakistan to respond in kind to the airstrike

Once Iran is skittled then the general concensus seems to be that Pakistan NEEDS to be next,the paki attitude is an aggreesive violent one in
general,leaving their country accessible to terrorists and showing such a high level of dicord within their own government that the pakistani people
ARE NOT BEING HEARD OR FAIRLY AND ACCURATELY REPRESENTED,

The rotten side of the government in that country seems to have supported terrorists to some degree and it seems as if the Pakistani people didnt
really want their government to support terrorism .

As Irans government has done ,Pakistans government has shown through their connections to terrorism that their government is corrupt,seemingly
unsavable,and the people need an advocate so their true voices can be heard.This is the attitude that the countrys massing to kick their arses are
supporting,one of being supporters of FREEDOM and supporting the PEOPLES VOICES AND WISHES,its hard to argue when the governments are really that
rotten inside.

We are quickly developing into one large global village and the major superpowers have known for a very long time that it was either global village or
global annihalation due to war.I am glad we all have seemingly chosen a global village and we are just now cleaning up the neighborhood,these little
nuclear powers dont see what is happening,the Superpowers are WORKING TOGETHER to disarm them one by one before something bad happens.

Pakistan,you have been served warning and your time to answer is SHORT,you must show the world another side of your country,you must let the people be
heard or you will get your walnuts crushed.

Imprison the criminals that supported terrorism from within your government and country,show the world you are a good country,because you are,dont
follow your natural aggressive posturing history because this time you really will be crushed like a bug,and it will be said by history that the
government wasnt representing the people and there wont be any martyrdom made available,only blame for pakistans government.

This is about a global movement this isnt a WESTERN belief system this is a global transformation and it will not stop it will only gain
momentum,there are two choices,hop on and join the new global reality or plant your feet,steady your jaw and prepare to be steamrolled into the future
with the rest of us.

No one will be allowed to crawl into the future at their own pace anymore,the entire world has to get tready to make a massiver change immediatly,a
societal,governmental,spiritual,and personal change ,towards a humanitarian based global village.

This is the future,this isnt a clash of different beliefs,this is the natural evolution beyon two sets of beliefs in fact MANY sets of beliefs TOWARDS
A GLOBAL VILLAGE OF HUMANITY ON OUR PLANET.

This has always been the future,it is just coming faster than we thought.

Originally posted by Jay-morris Im sorry, but iraq was alot more stable when saddam was in charge. Now its a complete mess with many
people dying daily.

I noticed you left our Iran's and the Saudi's contribution to the massive civilian deaths and destruction of property by their training, supporting
and sponsoring opposing sides in the ongoing sectarian conflict needlessly extending the conflict 4 years or more.

I'll admit Iraq was a bit more stable under Saddam at the point of a barrel that often killed randomly depending on which way the wind blew...

We all know that it was an illegal war, but they were desperate, just like they are desperate to get into iran.

Desperate?

Really?

Last time I checked Iran is an irritant. More like a sore on the West's Butt.

You don't see us being desperate to go and help other countries in need outside the middle east, why is that?

You mean like when the US/East allies stand up to China over disputed territorial waters? Hell, Now Vietnam and the US are on the same side on this
one..

Notice anything only slightly out of Whack here?

Don't you find this strange? Im not saying the whole iraq thing was for oil. What i will say is this could be just part of what they want to
do in the middle east. As for north korea. Having a few soldiers stationed near there is not exactly helping the north korean people, is it

No, But it helps our South Korean Allie civilian population sleep better at night knowing theirs and US troops are standing watch in case Little
Kimmies fantasy land of a workers paradise decides to again try to spreads it's version of heaven South.

The sooner the U.S. pulls out of the Middle East, the better. Shut down the funding, leave them to their own demise. If China has interests in the
area, well good luck to China.

Europe had better work on closing their borders, because as the oil runs out in the Middle East, massive numbers of people are going to try and move
into Europe.

Multi-culturalism sounds all fine and dandy, but it is only the first world nations trying to embrace this movement. The people of the third world
don't see themselves as joining a multicultural society, at least not most of them. They see themselves as moving in and taking over, and they have
no intentions of playing fair. I live in an area where vast numbers of immigrants have moved in, and they segregate themselves, and keep themselves
segregated. Sad to say, but this is the reality. Guess what, the immigrants see this as well. The different groups compete against each other, and
there is nothing progressive about it. The super rich profiting off of this, are going to wake up one day, and find themselves surrounded by
hostiles.

I have to wonder if the U.S. military isn't starting to wake up to the reality, that the ICs stripping the U.S. of its economic might out of sheer
greed, is also stripping away the very machinations that enable them to remain powerful militarily.

The divisions between cultures is very powerful, far more so than most realize.

Allowing China to expand its influence at this time would be good for the U.S..

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