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Uh, I've read through many of the entries on this thread. It attracted my attention because one of my sensei performed the exhibition, and taught me how to do it. He was not as good as Osensei appears to be in the films, and I am not as good as my teacher. Mostly that's due to the fact that I don't really practice it. It's value mostly resides in the exhibition itself, and I would rather spend my time developing abilities that are more universal to my stuff. Although, as has been noted there are some kinesthetic skills that can be acquired.
It is quite simple in nature to perform & develop. Nage holds the jo at the ends, and uke grabs the jo just to the inside of nage's two grips. Nage then releases one hand, pivots off the line, and as the body turns the hand naturally rotates by leverage. Uke's hands are then rotated in such a fashion the the weakness of the grip causes the tension in the rest of the body to be diverted into the ground. Being that the body is so tense the concious mind can't get the message that it's been redirected...it just feels the tension. As Aikidoka your all a bit more kinesthetically sensitive (hopfully), and if you pay attention you may notice this as uke. the only "ki" application in this has to do with regular mechanics & psychology, nothing special. The awareness gained from this demystification exercise is more valuable to the sincere Aikidoka than the application itself. However, in order to attract the more endarkened of humans these kind of vaudville stunts have some temporal value.

It is quite simple in nature to perform & develop. Nage holds the jo at the ends, and uke grabs the jo just to the inside of nage's two grips. Nage then releases one hand, pivots off the line, and as the body turns the hand naturally rotates by leverage. Uke's hands are then rotated in such a fashion the the weakness of the grip causes the tension in the rest of the body to be diverted into the ground. Being that the body is so tense the concious mind can't get the message that it's been redirected...it just feels the tension. As Aikidoka your all a bit more kinesthetically sensitive (hopfully), and if you pay attention you may notice this as uke. the only "ki" application in this has to do with regular mechanics & psychology, nothing special. The awareness gained from this demystification exercise is more valuable to the sincere Aikidoka than the application itself. However, in order to attract the more endarkened of humans these kind of vaudville stunts have some temporal value.

I must have missed it.... where did O-Sensei do all this when he did the jo-trick? I like the part about Aikidoists being "a bit more kinesthetically sensitive".... does that mean "willing to shill for sensei"?

Japes aside, I disagree with your analysis, Todd, and frankly I don't think Ueshiba was quite that heavily into psychological tricks that didn't have much martial application. I've mentioned before that the jo-trick is really just a horizontal version (more or less) of the vertical trick that Tohei does when he resists the incoming push to his forearm by a partner... do you think that's also a demonstration that depends on Uke's psychology?

Maybe you should quote the guy who originally posted that link on bullshido since he had a pretty good idea of what was going on in that exercise

Not to mention that article about the Magnetic Girl has been discussed on Aikido forums before.... I posted it recently on one of these threads, myself.... and it's a mainstay of some of the Taiji sites.

Not to mention that article about the Magnetic Girl has been discussed on Aikido forums before.... I posted it recently on one of these threads, myself.... and it's a mainstay of some of the Taiji sites.

All of that applies to the topic of 'jo tricks' too.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."

Not to mention that article about the Magnetic Girl has been discussed on Aikido forums before.... I posted it recently on one of these threads, myself.... and it's a mainstay of some of the Taiji sites.

Doh, guess I shouldn't be too surprised tho ^^; Its not a bad article all in all

Mark, good alignment is a plus, for several reasons not just the transmission of the force, but it's not critical. If you really have good mind/body skills, the particular alignment is not that critical. But we're nowhere near that sort of discussion on this forum, as far as I see.

I'm a bit confused here Mike, how far out are we? and why?

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I can explain it pretty clearly, Mark, but it would mean introducing factors we're not discussing in the thread and which take some practice to understand. I.e., what I'm saying is that any feat which has physically demonstrable effects can be analysed physically.

I'm guenuinely interested on your take on this Mike, I agree that analysis is is possible and desirable in all 'feats', I just don't agree that it's all explanations are necessarily 'mechanical'.

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What do you think physically happens to your body when you do the "unraisable" trick. Where, for instance, is the force coming from? How does it get to the lifters' hands? And so on?

Nothing happens to my body, I know the weight and mass remain constant. Personally I'm not too worried about the 'explanation' I'm iterested in the application. I know that whether I am practicing the role of lifter or lifted, my mind/body co-ordination is what is important. The role of the mind cannot be discounted from these discussions or for that matter any meaningfull analysis.

Well, at the moment we're speaking about general and basic things. The comment I've made several times that this starts out simple and gets fairly complex is true. At the moment I think everyone is positively (for the most part) establishing a foothold in these types of discussions, but the general experience level is fairly low (as it is in most martial arts). The trick is to try and discuss/show/argue/analyse etc., in order to get things up to a better level. We're just nibbling the fringes right now, so we're still pretty far out.

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I'm guenuinely interested on your take on this Mike, I agree that analysis is is possible and desirable in all 'feats', I just don't agree that it's all explanations are necessarily 'mechanical'.

Well, I think you're highlighting a problem. Tohei's 'acquisitions' of these skills for the general ki-society members is very vague. That's why there's such slow progress in ki-society skills, IMO. The vague visualizations are one way to acquire control over these body skills, but there are others... different approaches to allow near-voluntary control over normally-autonomic functions. Since your approach has a lot to do with "mind", that's what you think in terms of. I'm asking you to analyse what really happens in order to broaden your insight into what is happening besides the visualizations.

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Nothing happens to my body, I know the weight and mass remain constant. Personally I'm not too worried about the 'explanation' I'm iterested in the application. I know that whether I am practicing the role of lifter or lifted, my mind/body co-ordination is what is important. The role of the mind cannot be discounted from these discussions or for that matter any meaningfull analysis.

Sure something happens... you just need to analyse what it is, O Ye of Too Much Faith.

Well, at the moment we're speaking about general and basic things. The comment I've made several times that this starts out simple and gets fairly complex is true. At the moment I think everyone is positively (for the most part) establishing a foothold in these types of discussions, but the general experience level is fairly low (as it is in most martial arts). The trick is to try and discuss/show/argue/analyse etc., in order to get things up to a better level. We're just nibbling the fringes right now, so we're still pretty far out.

In my experience of teaching these 'skills' my take on it is, that the 'difficulty' is in that what the student is being asked to do is so 'simple'. Children often pick up on some of the 'visualisations' easily, while adults tend to consciously try and analyse what they are being asked to do, therefore not doing what the've been instructed to do which is to just 'do' not 'think' about doing.

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Well, I think you're highlighting a problem. Tohei's 'acquisitions' of these skills for the general ki-society members is very vague. That's why there's such slow progress in ki-society skills, IMO. The vague visualizations are one way to acquire control over these body skills, but there are others... different approaches to allow near-voluntary control over normally-autonomic functions. Since your approach has a lot to do with "mind", that's what you think in terms of. I'm asking you to analyse what really happens in order to broaden your insight into what is happening besides the visualizations.

My teacher spent 10 with Tohei in his long and illustrious aikido career, and gained much from the experience. Many of his old students did not follow him at this time as they did not want to 'go back to learning' as they already felt they 'had' aikido, they still practice the same as they always have.
The vague visualisations that you say Tohei used I'm not aware of as my own teacher broke away from the Ki Society to teach his own 'translated into modern english' aikido. His visualisations are not vague at all. They are precise and in my experience very effective. So yes you are right I do think in terms of mind as that is my own learned understanding.
As to what really happens, again, I'm not sure how neccessary it is.
Car designers will know exactly how a car works, but that doesn't make them good drivers.
Having said that, I am comfortable enough in my understanding to be able to teach what I can do to others, and we enjoy ourselves and have a good laugh about things in the process.

The more we drill down to the fine detail the easier it is to loose sight of the big picture.

For me when the mind and body are co-ordinated, ( and we use the 4 for co-ordinating mind and body rules that the Ki Society do with a 'variation' on the 'weight underside' ) then all the 'tricks/feats' are possible. With practice it is easier to maintain co-ordination across a greater range of pressure.

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Sure something happens... you just need to analyse what it is, O Ye of Too Much Faith.

In my experience of teaching these 'skills' my take on it is, that the 'difficulty' is in that what the student is being asked to do is so 'simple'. Children often pick up on some of the 'visualisations' easily, while adults tend to consciously try and analyse what they are being asked to do, therefore not doing what the've been instructed to do which is to just 'do' not 'think' about doing.

In my experience I can lead a group of adults (say 18-65 years of age) in a logical, linear progression of stepped skills to the point where they can do most "ki tests" in a couple of hours. Granted, doing them and conditioning the body so they can do them automatically and strongly would require them to practice over weeks/months, but I'm saying that there is no real "difficulty" when these things are presented in a stepped and logical format. And frankly I consider most of these things just the "foot in the door", not the endgame, at all.

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As to what really happens, again, I'm not sure how neccessary it is.
Car designers will know exactly how a car works, but that doesn't make them good drivers.

And "good drivers" aren't in the same category as "professional drivers", who I assure you know exactly how a car works.

Actually I think that was me Quoting E.J. Harrisons work. That book was written in the thirties but published after the war.
If you read it it also includes him visiting an Aikijujutsu guy and ....pushing on him, then pulling, trying to choke him and having it nuetralized without the fellow moving. Then E.J. being shoved off with a finger. Surprise surprise...

cheers
Dan

At the end of his work, Harrison describes two hypnotic healing incidents. The first is using hypnosis to effect a cure. The second is using hypnosis to end pain and induce illusion to a dying child's last moments.

However he did not name the healers "hypnotists". He called them "ki masters". This is likely a direct translation from the Japanese. A good form of early documentation which indicates this topic belongs in psychology.

Last edited by tedehara : 05-31-2006 at 09:43 AM.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.About KiAbout You

And "good drivers" aren't in the same category as "professional drivers", who I assure you know exactly how a car works.

True to a point, they have a good idea of how the car functions but still do not understand it on the same level as the engineers. More important is their ability to read the environment ahead and take appropriate action!

True to a point, they have a good idea of how the car functions but still do not understand it on the same level as the engineers. More important is their ability to read the environment ahead and take appropriate action!

Let's not drive this analogy into the ground! I'm just saying it's better to get there with a map than to rely on your "feelings", Mark.

I don't know Roy Goldberg but it is generally the case that the other folks don't dish out the higher level stuff at open seminars. I heard from one person at the Expo that this was a source of frustration for Kondo Sensei because everyone was oohing and ahhing over some other teachers who were not operating under such constraints doing things he was perfectly capable of doing but couldn't show people outside the art.

I was not at the Expo, and I have never seen Kondo-sensei in person. But it seems to me that if you attend an event such as the Expo as a featured teacher and demonstrator, you should expect that the participants will want to see what you can do. If you have taken an oath not to demonstrate certain "secrets", then the proper response when you observe others outside your system demonstrating them is not frustration, but satisfaction; you get to keep your oath. Further, it seems to me that if you have taken an oath not to reveal a secret, it is not really keeping that oath to walk into a crowded room (such as this forum) and announce, "I have a secret!"

Also, it seems to me that the participants on this thread who claim to be able to do the "jo trick" all agree that it is not "higher-level stuff". Apparently O-sensei did not regard it as a "secret" either, as he let himself be filmed demonstrating it on at least two occasions.

As Mike Sigman noted, I am skeptical --- especially in Internet discussions. I note that, years ago, when Fredrick Lovret's students and followers posted on forums such as e-budo, they met a similarly skeptical response. Eventually that skepticism led several of those people to pursue koryu arts with teachers such as Meik Skoss-sensei, whose lineage is unquestionable. Thus the skeptical response had good results --- which probably would not have happened otherwise.

At the end of his work, Harrison describes two hypnotic healing incidents. The first is using hypnosis to effect a cure. The second is using hypnosis to end pain and induce illusion to a dying child's last moments.

However he did not name the healers "hypnotists". He called them "ki masters". This is likely a direct translation from the Japanese. A good form of early documentation which indicates this topic belongs in psychology.

Well, the "ki" phenomena cover what we would consider several different phenomena rolled into one, Ted. I.e., "ki" is a vague term without any one-to-one direct translation. There actually is an issue of suggestion in the complete set of ki-related phenomena, but that's not the part of the issue that's being discussed in the jo-trick and the other direct physical effects. "Hypnosis" may not be quite the correct term, BTW, but you're still going off on a side issue. Let me see if I can briefly do a thumbnail overview of the whole effect (naturally, I can't be complete in just a thumbnail) and then see if we can agree to stick to the physical effects with objective criteria, leaving out the subjective parts, as best as possible.

In the full-blown ki-related phenomena there is a combination of "mind-body" in roughly 2 major issues that comprise the body's ki powers/skills/abilities:

(1.) Force manipulation sourcing either the ground or the weight for the force origins and manipulating the directions of the forces by "willing" them where you want them. The utilization of the 2 major force sources (which are using ground as a source or gravity as a source, ultimately implying the "ki of earth" and the "ki of heaven" in the way the body is trained) is more efficient and therefore adds to the overall strength available.

(2.) Fascia related training that supplements natural strength, but which has a number of side issues:
(a.) The skin becomes more resistant to cuts, punctures, etc.
(b.) The body "covering" makes the body more resistant to blows.
(c.) The internal organs' coverings and support (from connective tissue) becomes stronger; the organs are exercised through the training regimens.
(d.) The "magnetic feeling" the body, via the fascia, can produce is increased. This ability to produce electro-magnetic fields had been tested and it's real. But there is something about this electro-magnetic field that has to do with our suggestibility... a topic that hasn't been explored very well, although it is accepted that suggestion and reality are easily confused with these sensations. There is an idea that if your personal "field" is strengthened through practice, you can somewhat affect the "field" of another person, at least in terms of what they subjectively feel. The idea of the "field" is very ancient and is the source of the idea of "aura's" (some people appear to be able to perceive other peoples' magnetic fields to some extent). A lot of the curative, analgesic, hypnotic effects, illusions, "prescience", and similar phenomena are relegated to the general idea of "ki" because of these vague and general ideas built around the electro-magnetic field that appears to be a fascia-related phenomenon. ("Energy Medicine: The Scientific Basis" by James L. Oschman purports to cover this topic and western studies to some degree).

The fascia-related training is the part done with breathing exercises, stretches, etc., but it is usually combined with the forces part in an inextricable way for the full meaning of "ki".

Anyway, that's a thumbnail, Ted.... you're into just the electro-magnetic-field part of it and that's just a facet of the picture; unfortunately, it's the subjective facet.

Oops, I should have mentioned that the acupuncture idea is a combination of the "electro-magnetic field" effect and the way the layers of fascia in the body are supposed to be related to each other, the way the layers start and end, including the organs they wrap, etc. Generally speaking. I don't claim any expertise in the "electromagnetic field"/acupuncture part... just a superficial understanding of the relationships. The functional parts about the strengths, training, etc., is more where I'm focused, so allow me some slack on the other parts.

Also, it seems to me that the participants on this thread who claim to be able to do the "jo trick" all agree that it is not "higher-level stuff". Apparently O-sensei did not regard it as a "secret" either, as he let himself be filmed demonstrating it on at least two occasions.

I think this is THE crux of the discussion in a certain sense. The folks who can do it and understand it do not consider it to be "higher-level". In terms of what they know or what their style has to offer.

But if we look at the general group of, say, folks running Aikido dojos, you would find not many people who understand it or can do it. So at a certain point ones terminology becomes a bit misleading...

Are we talking about something which already high level folks would call "higher level" or are we talking about what the average instructor level practitioner thinks of as high level?

This points to a serious problem if we can believe the folks posting here. Dan Hardin would maintain that this isn't a higher level skill and that he can do it, and more siginificantly can teach it. Mike Sigman seems to be saying the same thing. Yet, most people teaching Aikido would be fairly ignorant of the principles involved.

Anyway, when we get to the point at which the general community of instructors doesn't know something, I guess we are ipso facto, at the point where it gets described as "higher level", at least for that community.

So then the real question is, if these are not considered "higher level" by certain groups outside of Aikido, but they seem to be generally absent within the Aikido community, then why are these things being lost and how do we re-introduce them? Understand, I am not just talking about the so-called "jo trick" but rather the underlying skills that would allow one to have the kind of effortless power which Takeda and Ueshiba seemed to have.

Is the Aikido community, in general, even ready to admit this is an issue and look for a solution? I would say probably not. This type of skill was posessed by people who trained very hard, in intimate traiing situations, with very high level teachers. Most Aikido practitioners cannnot / will not match those circumstances. I think that, rather than say to themselves that their Aikido will inevitably come up short, they will simply discount the importance of these elements.

I think this is especially true as, once again, in general, I don't think that very many of the senior instructors are emphasising these elements nor are they encouraging people to feel that they are important. This could be true becuse they themselves don't really understand these principles (Mike and Dan would, I believe take this position), or they have only taught these things to their most senior students, leaving everyone else in the dark, or as seems to be the case, the Aikido being modelled by the home Aikikai headquarters is devoid of these factors so associated instructors around the world do not structure their teaching this way.

In the case of my own teacher, Saotome Sensei, he can do just amazing Aikido. But he simply does not teach what he knows in any kind of step by step organized fashion. To the extent that I have figured out what he is doing it has been a combination of my own long term association with him and a variety of outside instruction from other teachers that has allowed me to get a handle on what he is doing. Most folks have none of these factors operating in their training.

It isn't just in this area that Aikido as it exists is losing touch with what was once there. The spiritual foundations of O-Sensei's Aikido are not being passed on in any large scale way, even though Aikido practice seems to be growing. In the end we have something which bears little or no resemblence to what the Founder had in mind when he created this practice.

When I moved to DC I was told to go study with Saotome Sensei. I went to the dojo...of course he was in FL by then and Shihan. So I studied for a few months being my typcial frustrated self. One day early in the morning when I was hanging out with Saotome sensei when he was "home", I got up the courage to ask him some very direct and intense situational questions along the lines of "prove it"..of course I was very diplomatic and polite about it and it was done in a way that he was not offended in the least. He proceeded to convince me of the power and skillfullness that he possessed! Wow!

It was the sole reason I have stayed with Aikido and ASU.

Of course, I was then relegated to the "masses"

I am not sure based on our society of how you train as hard, serious, or intently as you say we should in order to understand it! I tried to do this in DC area with various students, but we simply could not line up our schedules or devote the time necessary!

I think it takes a unique situation and a unique instructor that has the time in order for these things to happen! I still have hope, but the economics and the other priorities we all have in our lives seem to be the big issue.

so what happens if aikido continues on it's present path and guys like Mike Sigman and Dan Harden do indeed figure this stuff out and can develop a system and learn how to assimilate it into what aikido should be?

Politically and egoistically, it by all likelyhood would not be acknowledged by Aikikai...so then what?

psst...guys..over here...come train with these guys...they figured it out.

Do we then end up with systema or a situation like "real aikido"? or Brazil-ai-ki-do?