floating_abu wrote:you have been hitting the Treeleaf line for a long time now, I am no fan of Jundo and would not take guidance from him myself, but the reality is this whole world sees things differently. Almost all of Treeleaf Sangha is here to defend the group, and if they find it useful, then who are we to argue that.

Hi Abu,

The topic is not about usefulness, it's about the Treeleaf controversy, which centers around the issue of 'online sangha', or at least that's the aspect currently being discussed.

Seriously? Did the Great Patriarch come from the west in order to play charades?

Is the Shout of Lin Chi a pantomime?

Shakyamuni holding up a flower: just playing a party game?

People play charades when they cannot (or will not or are not able to) face reality openly. Practice is about facing reality openly, not about faking it. Much of the teacher's job is to identify when a student is faking it, and shake the ***t out of them until they see the cypress in the garden... at which time there's no need to play games anymore.

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floating_abu wrote:you have been hitting the Treeleaf line for a long time now, I am no fan of Jundo and would not take guidance from him myself, but the reality is this whole world sees things differently. Almost all of Treeleaf Sangha is here to defend the group, and if they find it useful, then who are we to argue that.

Hi Abu,

The topic is not about usefulness, it's about the Treeleaf controversy, which centers around the issue of 'online sangha', or at least that's the aspect currently being discussed.

Speaking for myself, I'm interested in the limits and possibilities of distance learning. What can a teacher do through this medium, and what not? What can a student learn in this way, and what not? Of the things that a student learns directly or indirectly, which things will need to be unlearned?

I'm not particularly interested in the inimitable Mr Cohen, any more or less than I am interested in anyone else. Which is to say I love the man with all my heart. It's not personal...

<--self-portrait

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floating_abu wrote:you have been hitting the Treeleaf line for a long time now, I am no fan of Jundo and would not take guidance from him myself, but the reality is this whole world sees things differently. Almost all of Treeleaf Sangha is here to defend the group, and if they find it useful, then who are we to argue that.

Hi Abu,

The topic is not about usefulness, it's about the Treeleaf controversy, which centers around the issue of 'online sangha', or at least that's the aspect currently being discussed.

If it is useful for practitioners, if people continue to solidly explore Buddha's teachings and practice wholeheartedly, then it has a function. If there are limits to that function, OK, as a student blooms, they themself can be in a position to know perhaps.

This 'smokescreen' about real or fakeness online or offline is quite frankly redundant IMO in this topic.

I have seen the biggest Zen posers in real life and online. I have also seen some people, such as at that Zen blogger site, be outright rude and abusive because they can do so behind an online persona. I have also seen people who remain kind and truthful behind online names, with no credit going anywhere soon. I have also seen many so called "teachers" or "leaders" try to build their names and careers through the internet - some in robes and others not, OK fine -- this is all part of the landscape like it or not. Some of these creeps (I am not talking about Jundo who I have not interacted with for many years now) also creep me out severely but I also know that these people are part of the very fabric of human life - it has never been not so in any dimension or period of human historical life.

There are other elements you have spoken about such as charades and truth, which I find some incongruity with but for now I will leave you be, and wish you well on this topic and others.

Basically I do not think the online part is the controversy. If that was Hakuin at the helm, would it be an issue? I doubt it, nor do I believe Hakuin would only teach online, but first thing's first. And I mean no disrespect to Jundo who I have not spoken with, or read, for a long time now. Nor will I do so probably.

For those who wish to continue with Treeleaf Zendo, I also wish them well and may all blossom within the Truth of this practice.

floating_abu wrote:you have been hitting the Treeleaf line for a long time now, I am no fan of Jundo and would not take guidance from him myself, but the reality is this whole world sees things differently. Almost all of Treeleaf Sangha is here to defend the group, and if they find it useful, then who are we to argue that.

Hi Abu,

The topic is not about usefulness, it's about the Treeleaf controversy, which centers around the issue of 'online sangha', or at least that's the aspect currently being discussed.

Speaking for myself, I'm interested in the limits and possibilities of distance learning. What can a teacher do through this medium, and what not? What can a student learn in this way, and what not? Of the things that a student learns directly or indirectly, which things will need to be unlearned?

I'm not particularly interested in the inimitable Mr Cohen, any more or less than I am interested in anyone else. Which is to say I love the man with all my heart. It's not personal...

<--self-portrait

Hi Jikan

I can speak out of experience. The real life training, which I desisted against as come on reading and understanding is so much easier!, made a world of difference for me. But then again, I was fortunate enough to work with a real master, and for that, there are no words of gratitude.

As to what can be taught and what cannot - well a center of practice is set up entirely for the benefit of a practice lifestyle, training, honing. It can only be perfect for that.

Online, what? We are effectively protected, we choose which elements and persons we interact with, converse to, we imagine understandings to be real understanding, and discussions to be agreement.

That all said,I only would support it all with a real teacher, a kind teacher ultimately who is keen in eyesight and genuine in reel. Other than that, I would say the world is your oyster. We then have to go with our own karma and that means our debts and our rewards.

May you be blessed always and the blessings of practice surround you strongly.

floating_abu wrote:There are other elements you have spoken about such as charades and truth, which I find some incongruity with but for now I will leave you be, and wish you well on this topic and others.

Lol, I happen to have played a game of charades at a rather odd dinner party not long ago. I was quite good at it, as I think you can easily imagine.

Basically I do not think the online part is the controversy. If that was Hakuin at the helm, would it be an issue? I doubt it

I just read through this thread. I have been part of many Buddhist groups since the 70s, Tibetan, Vipassana, Chan, Zen. I lived at some, studied to be a monk at one point, lived for a short time in Dharamsala, and studied with many teachers. I have been at places where we thought we knew each other, only to discover some dark secret about the Teacher or something hidden about the other students we thought we knew. Other places were quite nice and good teachers. After an accident, I found Treeleaf because I can't drive any more. I was not expecting much. I found a lot. The teachers including Jundo Osho and Taigu Osho are good hearted and first rate. They cut through a lot of the bull I found in other situations, and present a very down to the earth practice that suits me at this time in my life. They are not perfect, and they don't try to be (unlike the teachers of some other groups I experienced). That alone is a breath of fresh air. The other people in the Sangha, for the most part, are good people. Many new comers, many who have been around the Buddhist block. Is it perfect? No. However, I would rate it about as wholesome a place as any of the Sangha I have known.

Let me give you my rule of thumb:

If you find people who seem agitated, angry, resentful, fixated or with an ax to grind criticizing Jundo or Taigu or Treeleaf as "not their cup of tea", then consider their motivations and mindset. Is that the kind of criticism you want to listen to? If such people say "it is not good", then that may be an indication that you should check out the place. Please also beware of "enlightened" voices who will tell you what is "real Buddhism".

If you find people who seem calm, balanced, level headed, open who say that a Sangha and its teachers are their "cup of tea", there may be no better and compelling recommendation.

Both groups of people may be giving a strong recommendation to Treeleaf for opposite reasons!

That is just my two cents as someone who has been around the Buddhist world since before a lot of you were born.

tigerdown wrote:The teachers including Jundo Osho and Taigu Osho are good hearted and first rate.

Having seen the flip side of some of the aforementioned individuals I would have to disagree with your analysis.

Why? Where you are part of Treeleaf? Did you study with Taigu and Jundo? So what are you judging on? The words here? Share with us. If you make some innuendo you should explain. Truth be told, this whole thread seem like quite a lot of resentment and ax grinding that never gets backed up with facts. That is just my impression.

Alot of this seems to be about the past.mabey these teachers in the past have rubbed some people the wrong way,mabey they didnt do anything wrong but people precieved them to be doing something wrong.Either way its the past,we have all done something bad to anouther person,and after years go by we all change.(hopefully for the better)

I'm not here to gossip. You can take my word for it or you can just ignore my statement.

If you make some innuendo you should explain.

It is not an innuendo. An innuendo would have been something like: well... I don't know exactly... Actually, I think my statement was quite clear and direct.

Truth be told, this whole thread seem like quite a lot of resentment and ax grinding that never gets backed up with facts.

I do not resent anything about Treeleaf, actually I would go as far as to say that I don't give a sh*t about Treeleaf. I also have no axe to grind. None whatsoever. You, on the other hand, and many of the members of your sangha have a great deal invested in the situation, mayhaps you are not as objective as you may wish to believe?

I'm not here to gossip. You can take my word for it or you can just ignore my statement.

If you make some innuendo you should explain.

It is not an innuendo. An innuendo would have been something like: well... I don't know exactly... Actually, I think my statement was quite clear and direct.

Truth be told, this whole thread seem like quite a lot of resentment and ax grinding that never gets backed up with facts.

I do not resent anything about Treeleaf, actually I would go as far as to say that I don't give a sh*t about Treeleaf. I also have no axe to grind. None whatsoever. You, on the other hand, and many of the members of your sangha have a great deal invested in the situation, mayhaps you are not as objective as you may wish to believe?

I do not think that the Treeleaf folks I have seen here are doing more than responding from their experience to a few dozen posts by someone who appears agitated, angry, resentful, fixated, ax grinding,and some sympathizers who jumped on the band wagon. It is not anything if not a calm response.

You wrote;

I'm not here to gossip. You can take my word for it or you can just ignore my statement.

In that case can I assert that I have some confidential information about you but I'm not here to gossip. You can take my word for it or you can just ignore my statement. No, I do not think that would be right.

You should be honest and lay out your case. Maybe Taigu and Jundo did something you consider bad but most people would not if they heard it.

Tiger

Last edited by tigerdown on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

You can at least clear the air that it is or is not a matter of serious moral turpitude that might involve a criminal offense. Is it a Felony? Drug use? Sexual abuse? Jail time? Child abuse? Faked credentials? Stealing money? Since you put out some smoke, please tell us at least that it is or is not any of those things. A simple yes or no would not involve gossiping.

Tiger.

Last edited by tigerdown on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

If is weird to see people spending so much time and effort to point out what is wrong for others. After reading some posts, I cannot believe it's compassion driven. My teacher is better then your teacher and my practice is better then your practice!Childish, isn't it?

oushi wrote:If is weird to see people spending so much time and effort to point out what is wrong for others. After reading some posts, I cannot believe it's compassion driven. My teacher is better then your teacher and my practice is better then your practice!Childish, isn't it?

It is. All our teachers are good teachers if we find the right teacher for us. I have had a lot of teachers, many right and many wrong.

tigerdown wrote:You can at least clear the air that it is or is not a matter of serious moral turpitude that might involve a criminal offense. Is it a Felony? Drug use? Sexual abuse? Jail time? Child abuse? Faked credentials? Stealing money? Since you put out some smoke, please tell us at least that it is or is not any of those things. A simple yes or no would not involve gossiping.

Tiger.

You are overreacting. This is evidence of over-investment and a lack of equanimity. Chill out. It's got nothing to do with criminal offenses.

tigerdown wrote:You can at least clear the air that it is or is not a matter of serious moral turpitude that might involve a criminal offense. Is it a Felony? Drug use? Sexual abuse? Jail time? Child abuse? Faked credentials? Stealing money? Since you put out some smoke, please tell us at least that it is or is not any of those things. A simple yes or no would not involve gossiping.

Tiger.

You are overreacting. This is evidence of over-investment and a lack of equanimity. Chill out. It's got nothing to do with criminal offenses.

Back to the program.

Good. So I gather we can also assume it has nothing to do with drug use, sexual abuse, jail, child abuse, faked credentials, stealing money, or anything even remotely of the like with any of those, on the part of either Jundo or Taigu. Please confirm if I am mistaken, because once someone starts tossing around innuendo it can easily be twisted.

I have been around this Treeleaf group and its Teachers, very honorable gents in my experience, and I have been around other groups and teachers that really had problems with each of those things. Let's not get the situation confused.

are we saying that the best qualifications for a teacher of Dharma are simply not having...

to do with drug use, sexual abuse, jail, child abuse, faked credentials, stealing money, or anything even remotely of the like

?

I put the question this way more or less rhetorically. I'm not saying Mr Cohen is or is not qualified to teach anything, because I have not met the man; you can summarize our relationship very briefly (he once misspelled my name on one of his websites, and I occasionally find petulent emails from him in my spam folder... not sure if he writes them or if it's phishing or whatever). Anyway, since I've never even been in the same room with him, how could I have any basis to evaluate him as a teacher or his community as a space in which to learn?

Merely negative statements of endorsement (well, he's never done anything horrible that we know of publicly...) are rather weak endorsements. By that standard, my uncle Louie could open a Zendo just because he's not a pedophile and so on.

It must be difficult to be a student or prospective student in a strictly online organization like this, because it's extremely difficult for the student to evaluate the instructor and the organization closely and critically.

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