Bilic, his tactics and the need for good football

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reading Bilic's remarks after the city loss, he says basically that to have any sort of chance against big teams you have to have all your players fit, and you have to make no mistakes at the back. whilst i agree with him on the latter, I'm not so sure this is the right approach. we are a premier league side, we are in the league to compete. I'm just not a believer in all this defeatism when we are up against big sides. basically he's saying unless we have a fully fit squad and some luck we won't beat anyone 'better than us'. correct me if I'm wrong but is his job not to ensure that when we play bigger clubs that he finds a way to gain advantages elsewhere? what i mean is and you can take a leaf from allardyce on this, there is more to the game than trying to play 'good football'. it worries me that we have just become a nothing sort of club now. we converted from the drab direct stuff of allardyce but now we have become a southampton or a watford perhaps…a team that plays the same way as the big clubs but has nothing near the same in quality of players. the result - its going to be a tonking 9 times out of 10. Bilic made an impact in his first season, he transformed us from the direct style into a counter attack side that even the big sides struggled against..why? because there was a game plan that played on their weaknesses. many times last year i watched in horror as we took to the field against city and co trying to play basically the same way they set out to play. i had hoped bilic would take the summer to reflect and to decide on his tactics and plans etc. pre season tells me he's learnt nothing in this area. someone like benitez will adapt his line ups, his style to look for ways to win matches, bilic seems to have become a poor mans guardiola, sending the same line up out match after match to play the same way regardless. once in a while you will get lucky, things will go your way…but overall you will be a nothing side, getting thrashed here and there and having mourinho and conte saying 'we played good football' after they take us to the cleaners and looking forward to the 3 points in the return. i may be old school, but managers of the past, especially those english ones of old were tacticians as well as coaches. putting an extra midfielder in there to do a particular job, i.e. close out a play maker, playing two up front to press a weak defender etc. i know i play too much FM these days and maybe get carried away but i hated it when Zola would give a press conference before a big match and say we've got no chance, mind games maybe but he did it so many times it just sent a message of why are we bothering. lets not forget this is a sport, a game of competitors . the balance of power favours those with the most money but there are points to be taken from tactical approaches. it doesnt have to be pretty, but it does need to be effective. i don't mean throwing andy carroll on with 10 mins to go and hoofing it up to him desperately after going 4-0 down at home to city…i mean some real thinking and planning. maybe it was simply luck in his first season but he had a plan that worked on several big clubs, the pace and power troubled them at the back…..so why did we abandon this in search of a more 'total football' approach? Slaven please wake up man, we don't want anymore 5-0 home defeats to city and co this season…we want to compete against them all. get it done.

when your sides had a go but to many times last year we set up just to not get beat or beaten heavily without trying to win home or away and i think bilic's confidence went with the watford home game last season 2-0 up cruising then whole team fell apart and we lost 2-4 from that match forwards we stopped playing the football bilic was lorded for in his first season...much as i hate to say it i would be surprised if he makes it to the end of september...we all no this sunday we could not of asked for a tougher fixture than manure away and lukaku home debut but going up there already beaten is unacceptable..like i said fans are not stupid and understand if we get beat thats football but i like any fan of any club will not accept not even trying to win no matter who you play.

A lot of bilics "success" on his first season was built on an unseen top season from Payet so many points were rescued mainly thro payets good season and not around any football tactics from bilic. He is still trying to dine out on it. It was Payet who pulled out the points and dragged players confidence along with him not bilic.

He also bought Payet, Lanzini and Antonio. It's a strange argument that a manager dines out on the success of a player he brought in, isn't that the point? if he'd have bought Payet and he'd have been a flop it's his fault, of he buys him and he succeeds it's not his doing. So if Lukaku wins the league for Man U, all their fans will be congratulating the Glazers and not Mourinho I take it?

Bilic didn't want Antonio Betty, he wanted Moses that's why he didn't want to know Antonio at first. But I see what you are saying but take Payet out and we probably finish and play the way we did last season. My point is it's more than just who you bring in as you have no idea how they will play. Its formation, tactics improving players tactical subs etc etc. he could never have known Payet would have been such a success. If Payet had played more like Lanzini in his first season people wouldnt be cutting him so much slack. So inshort he got lucky it wasn't anything bilic did outside of buying a player that turned out a success. On the flip side he wanted tore, and zaza. I'm looking for something more from bilic. Good organised defence, clear formation and tactics, improving players we have and giving a few minutes to the youth and not disregarding them just because they are young. I'm biased but I say outside of a couple of decent signings he has done very little for us on the pitch. As for your mourinho point of course we give him credit, he has proved his salt time and again, we could argue that bilic has proved very little at any club.

most assuredly is hovering over slavs head and i do think the board will be swift to use it if we start badly.....we need to be more adventurous at home and if a disaster occurs against huddersfield in our first home match and live on tv then that will be it for him i feel

Like someone else said, I can't believe that Bilic is being touted for the sack, before a ball is kicked. I think there's bit too much fantasy football being played by a lot of orgers these days, reality is getting skewed. He had a good first season, then his best player gets caught out cheating and made to go home. If that had happened to any of the top teams they would struggled too. He couldn't legislate for that, but we still finished mid table, where most pYING fans see us. Anyway for the sake of debate, if his days are numbered, that means they would gave someone lined/tapped up already. As much as people think the owners are morons, crap, porno-kings, Driscolls etc... they have accumulated huge wealth, running businesses, so they won't get rid of Bilic without someone else to come in. So who do we think that is ? That person would have to have Prem experience because you can't risk a newcomer. All the good ones are employed and all the crap ones are looking for work. Hernandez might not be happy either as part of his reason for joining us was Bilic, so I'm not sure how that plays out. The only manager I can see replacing him is Benitez, but he's employed for now. However in your reckoning if we are languishing at Xmas he'll be gone too. I just don't think there are enough "just outside the top six managers" out there for you guys. You'll burn through them all in about 2 seasons. You never know we might do well and have a good season!? slap slap slap "WE'LL HAVE NONE OF THAT TALK ON HERE!!!"

Well as a manger doesn't play on the pitch that's a tough one. As you've taken away a big part of his job which is to buy players, again it's limited. I think he tries to change things if they're not working. I think he tries different formations so he's not stuck in one way of playing. I think he's passionate, doesn't sit there chewing gum looking disinterested like the last bloke. I think that apart from Benitez I can't think of anyone else I'd like or want to take a risk on if I'm honest. I think that you guys, that maybe aren't at games have a very detached perspective about Bilic and the team. I don't want to start a "those that go" and those that don't " war, but I think we have very different experiences. To your horror there's a large section the crowd who cant "SuperSlav", even Payet's song mentioned him. I just think if you're more detached on match days there's a tendency to look at things very black and white and stat like, without the human emotion. You'd be happy to get rid of him now, even though he's brought in 4 internationals and three of them major trophy winners. To me that's nonsense or crazy talk, or something born out of a fantasy detached perception of football. Give him a chance to fail before you wrote him off. His signings might click and you can put the knives away for a few months.

Slav is exactly the kinda manager who I'm preying will prove me wrong, sadly I don't see any evidence yet to suggest it. Harsh maybe and I'm sure I'm the only one who thinks it on here but I think he is stealing a living.

but what has 'accumulating huge wealth' got to do with anything? didnt they get rid of sam without 'anyone to come in'? Bilic wasnt their first choice so they obviously hadn't sorted things out before sacking sam that much is obvious. I'm not really one who gives people credit for business know how simply based on the fact that they made a lot of money. look at the guy at newcastle, mega rich, business savvy? possibly not. a lot of people's success in business is down to being at the right place at the right time and having things fall into place. for every branson who made it, there were 100 better than him who circumstances conspired to not go their way and they failed. in my view.

First three games away from home, has to be given time. Worried a small bit about our defence but with new signings clicking together hopefully, I think we will do alright. As for pessimism Betty, as Fr Ted would say.. Down with that sort of thing.

Tbf passion and lack of arrogance don't give our team anything on the pitch? They are not really a commodity for the improvement of the team so I don't see them as a reason to keep. I was happy to get rid of bilic b4 the end of the season. So his 4 new signings are irrelevant to that argument for me. I get the point the crowd like him but fans always give one of their own more slack than an outsider. For anyone to suggest we need to give him a chance, he has had 2 seasons! Taking away transfers is such a big part of it? Well if so should it be? I'm sure we all agree that there is a lot more to managing than buying players. There has even talk that he has trouble man managing players. Teams like city and Chelsea can afford to buy endless expensive players, we can't! So our mangers need to bring a bit more to the table in terms of coaching in general. Only an opinion of course but what bilic brings on that side is very little and no more than every average manager. Personally like you say it's Benitez for me to, but it's easy for us to say. I want to see a manager who has improved the team based on what he has been doing during the week. Much as I hate Sam, you could see he had worked on things during the week and we had a clear plan. I get your points on going to matches, maybe fans at the game get caught up the the emotion? Or they prefer bilic to the board. I'm happy to pay the money if we are playing decent football but the crap we offered for over 90 per cent of last season doesn't warrant the price and effort to go and watch it. Give me a decent game to watch and I'd be there like a shot.

Count for much,but ive always said that slav is a breath of fresh air compared to most of todays egotistical managers...
But it will count for nothing if we dont have a great season,be a case of "next - hop on board!!"

interesting disscusions above. my post wasnt about getting Bilic sacked or wanting him sacked, it was about what he needs to do (In my unqualified opinion) to improve next season. i can see good points made by all, betty included but to add to the discussion id say that Bilic job is the same as any manager and that is to get results. the days of a manager being able to simply create a good mood in the camp and play some decent football are long gone for top clubs. its all about the results. below the results yes there is the style of football and mood that can also get you sacked but the be all and end all is results. therefore if Bilic, and I'm sure he is is a decent, hard working, nice bloke, thats not his remit. unfortunately those things count for zero in todays top club dog eat dog world. allardyce was a piece of arrogant work, but all the time he was getting results he was going nowhere. its my belief that the remit for Bilic is that he finish at a set target league position, i don't know what that is, the board know and he will be told i guess. 1st season he must have exceeded the aim, 2nd he must have fallen short so they balance out, but this year he's been backed by signings whether his or the boards, or who gets credit for them is irrelevant, the fact is they, the board will feel they have backed him to get to whatever the league position is and probably give him one or two places below as you can't get exact in football. then it becomes a 'see how it goes' game..whereby if he starts poorly and we are languishing way off the target by christmas most likely he will go. thats how modern boards work. panic begins to creep in for not reaching the target that they invested in making. in my view, bilic approaches the game in a great manner, coming across as laid back and without the guardiola or mourinho drama queen nonsense. it is a fact of football managers lives that they live and die by their players. bilic was given due credit for his first season where payet inspired the club up the league and due discredit for a rather poor campaign last season with payet gone. however its every managers job to get the best out of his players and to buy players that work for the team. some may see this as harsh on the manager having to rely on others to decide his future but unfortunately when you sign up as a manager, you have to stand idly by and watch those you trust to get it done. ultimately if they fail to do so, then you have failed as a manager. i said in my original post that he sent the same line up out each week, i do agree however that he changed the formation a lot. but in my view it didnt work. and for me someone who is paid a million or so pounds a year to get these things right, needs to get it right. otherwise if 'changing formations' is all thats required you can put me in charge as i can manage that much. we do seem to overlook the fact that this is a privileged position, to be a top manager has stresses and pressures sure it does, but in perspective its not running into burning buildings each day or facing gunfire. the worse that can happen is you get fired or you say its too much and quit, no real big deal. so with this in mind i don't have much sympathy for managers at the top end, people say they get sacked too much but lets be honest they get well rewarded for whatever time they put in. my point on this is that its results that matter, and trying different things, having a nice demeanour are good bonuses but they have to work, they have to contribute to points otherwise you're being paid for nothing really.

Phew, a lot to read dicksy. Obviously we are fans and don't see things as the same as the club. Unfortunately results are top priority in football. I as a fan who knows only a small number of teams can win trophies, so I'm looking for a well drilled team that plays good football with a manager who gets the best out of his players as a team. Simplistic? Yes, but I don't see bilic as doing this. Sam had a crap squad but probably got the best from the players he had. I know you didn't mean this to be a Slav out thread but it did just go off on a tangent. I certainly feel since it got side tracked there have definately be some interesting points from Betty and yourself. Healthy because it makes you stop and think.

yeah sorry about that, got carried away lol. my main point is though that he or whoever is our manager, is paid literally millions to get the things right. he's had two seasons now, there can be no excuse for waiting and seeing how signings bed in etc, its not up to us as fans, its up to the results he gets us. whatever way he assembles the team or who he buys simply have to add up to points on the board…if not, his nice way or approach won;t save him from the sack and rightly so. my view on managers these days is based on the massive money they earn, if they didnt earn it id have more sympathy, but when you sign up for that huge pay packet, you gotta get the job done or bite the dust. i haven't come across a manager yet who says 'pay me less, when i don't produce the results.' they are just as greedy as the players imo.

Like i said in another post,as much as i feel at the moment its a bit too early to talk of sacking slav,its a results business & a dodgy first few months & he will be out the door...
Good point you make about not feeling too sorry for them,they are hardly destitute when a job ends....

Slav is a good guy, he represents West Ham in a good way unlike the last bloke, but if we start the season unfit and undercooked like last season he will have learnt nothing, only time will tell on that one.

Like most of you, I hate the "lowering expectations" talk of "unless we're perfect we can't beat team X." I hated it most when Zola descended into darkness, lost his smile, and nervously rotated golf balls (or ping pong balls or something) in his hand. You knew at that moment that this likeable guy who started out well, and could (for a while) get the best out of players, had been crushed into submission by the "reality" of the big time. But once crushed, you don't get up. Allardyce, much as I hated his anti-football at the end, was never crushed like this. He sometimes couldn't be arsed to put in an effort against City (in the Cup for example), but he was always arrogant as hell, and if he thought he could nick a point, he would do it with relish. For me the biggest problem with Allardici was that he played too cautiously against weak opposition. Slave now has the look of someone who has been crushed. Not as bad a Zola, but he just doesn't any longer have any of that cagey, snappy, honest bravura that he used to have in his first season. He seems to lack enthusiasm, and seems not to be putting in the time required to figure out a way to beat teams. Worst of all he is now wearing GLASSES! How dare he!

hes copying Klop. its all ready for the late goal..so he can fling the glasses off and jump around like a buffoon for ten minutes…..before the match has even ended. the broken glasses the evidence of his 'passion' for his club.

in other worrying news…. I had a dream last night, one of those mixed up bizarre ones that nothing made much sense. however, at one point during it, i was told the result of man u v west ham…..and it was 10-1 to Man U.

Ah dream interpretation, in my vast experience in this field I can tell you what your dream means dicksy. The 10 goals that you dreamt Man Utd score means that you think they will score 10 goals. However the one goal West Ham score doesn't actually mean you think the same. It actually has a hidden meaning of one - won. So in short you think they will score 10 but we will still come out the winners. It also can be interrupted as they will steamroller us but we snatch it at the death.

were shoddy...yes it was man utd away but to basically play for a draw from the off was never going to work...Arthur was poor arnautavic could not cross a ball for toffee today the midfield was well shocking..yes I know we have injuries but come on that is no excuse for that kind of display.