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Re: [Grand RP Tournament] Xmas Edition - Feedback and Discussion

And people will get their second chance next tournament.. Adding the loser brackets will not only add 2 extra rounds (2 weeks) but also have 2 times the amount of fights that will need to be graded.. that add's a lot of time. I think loser brackets are fine when you have a smaller tournaments but in a large one like this it's to much

Re: [Grand RP Tournament] Xmas Edition - Feedback and Discussion

Originally Posted by Riku..

The thing is that the three vote thing wasn't really a rule. It was never made into a rule, just something that was necessary for certain battles. It literally only came up because the fights toward the end were just so close that Scorps was unsure of which direction to judge it, so whereas normally his judgement was enough, he felt as though he should get other opinions. It wasn't really like Scorps decided that his method wasn't working and wanted to switch things up, ya know? It was really just for those specific fights as the tourney wound down. And while it may make things easier, it would also make for a bit more strenuous of a grading process if from the very start the tourney won't progress until Scorps, Vincent, and I (or whoever else) all grade every fight. Taking into consideration that it only takes one mod to grade a sensei test or a most special bio tests, it really isn't necessary to have three mods for every fight from the start of the tourney. In my opinion it would just end up slowing down the tourney. Now maybe having three mods assigned to the tourney who would grade together when necessary may be an idea. But applying this to every battle just seems unnecessary.

I agree and understand where youre coming from Riku. I was gonna post this earlier, but I kinda see people critquing more than just simple stuff so I shall explain a few things I noticed and why I agreed to having 3 votes. I don't agree it needs to be from the biggining but I think it should be for those at least up to the 3rd round or if necessary for the 1st or 2nd if needed.

One thing that needed to be worked on is judging consistency such as: using cheap moves, abusing techniques and wording to get a cheap win, Custom Element spamming etc. Comparing last tournament to this one, I'd say that this tournament was a bit smoother because of the number of people and no loser bracket, but also because of the thread where you were able to call out your opponents moves. But in the end there is no real way to win a tournament match. The style of judging does not stay the same nor the variables you'd expect

Example 1

Lets say for example Attacker "A" is using high ranking attacks from the start and is having his opponent defend each turn. His opponent cant seem to dominate the flow of the battle but is able to "survive" turn by turn by just doing enough to live. The attacker would be declared the winner in this case.

Example 2

Lets say for example Attacker "B" is using high ranked techniques from the start and is having his opponent defend each turn. His opponent cant seem to dominate the flow of the battle but is able to "survive" turn by turn by using less powerful techniques or cannons only to defend from Customs etc. Yet, even though surviving the defender still cant dominate the flow of the battle.

The one defending would be called the winner and not the one who dominated the battle because he adverted powerful techniques with cannon or weaker ones, showing superior "skill/strategy". See the comparison between 1 & 2?

Example 3

Lets say Attacker "C" isn't looking to go for the instant kill, or unnecessary spamming from the start of the battle. They start off with a slow way of keeping their opponent defending and controlling the flow of the battle. The attacker is using low ranking techniques to control the battle, while the defender is using high ranking techniques each turn and is still unable to dominate.

I would see that the defender be crowed the winner, because he looked like he "wanted it more." Than the person who was doing less to dominate.

These examples are in no way to take shots at you Scorps, or to undermine your ability especially the last example, but I merely wanted to explain why I think more than one viewpoint is kind of key in some of these rulings instead of one person. I just felt as though it was hard to grasp the concept of:

"What am I fighting for, and how should I try to win?"

"Dominate.....show skill.....defend with ease....go for the instant killl and be seen as a spammer......" Theres never a real way to win.

Re: [Grand RP Tournament] Xmas Edition - Feedback and Discussion

Originally Posted by Nagato..

I agree and understand where youre coming from Riku. I was gonna post this earlier, but I kinda see people critquing more than just simple stuff so I shall explain a few things I noticed and why I agreed to having 3 votes. I don't agree it needs to be from the biggining but I think it should be for those at least up to the 3rd round or if necessary for the 1st or 2nd if needed.

One thing that needed to be worked on is judging consistency such as: using cheap moves, abusing techniques and wording to get a cheap win, Custom Element spamming etc. Comparing last tournament to this one, I'd say that this tournament was a bit smoother because of the number of people and no loser bracket, but also because of the thread where you were able to call out your opponents moves. But in the end there is no real way to win a tournament match. The style of judging does not stay the same nor the variables you'd expect

Example 1

Lets say for example Attacker "A" is using high ranking attacks from the start and is having his opponent defend each turn. His opponent cant seem to dominate the flow of the battle but is able to "survive" turn by turn by just doing enough to live. The attacker would be declared the winner in this case.

Example 2

Lets say for example Attacker "B" is using high ranked techniques from the start and is having his opponent defend each turn. His opponent cant seem to dominate the flow of the battle but is able to "survive" turn by turn by using less powerful techniques or cannons only to defend from Customs etc. Yet, even though surviving the defender still cant dominate the flow of the battle.

The one defending would be called the winner and not the one who dominated the battle because he adverted powerful techniques with cannon or weaker ones, showing superior "skill/strategy". See the comparison between 1 & 2?

Example 3

Lets say Attacker "C" isn't looking to go for the instant kill, or unnecessary spamming from the start of the battle. They start off with a slow way of keeping their opponent defending and controlling the flow of the battle. The attacker is using low ranking techniques to control the battle, while the defender is using high ranking techniques each turn and is still unable to dominate.

I would see that the defender be crowed the winner, because he looked like he "wanted it more." Than the person who was doing less to dominate.

These examples are in no way to take shots at you Scorps, or to undermine your ability especially the last example, but I merely wanted to explain why I think more than one viewpoint is kind of key in some of these rulings instead of one person. I just felt as though it was hard to grasp the concept of:

"What am I fighting for, and how should I try to win?"

"Dominate.....show skill.....defend with ease....go for the instant killl and be seen as a spammer......" Theres never a real way to win.

I mentioned this before, but I like the elaboration.
I support it 100%

Re: [Grand RP Tournament] Xmas Edition - Feedback and Discussion

Originally Posted by Nagato..

I agree and understand where youre coming from Riku. I was gonna post this earlier, but I kinda see people critquing more than just simple stuff so I shall explain a few things I noticed and why I agreed to having 3 votes. I don't agree it needs to be from the biggining but I think it should be for those at least up to the 3rd round or if necessary for the 1st or 2nd if needed.

One thing that needed to be worked on is judging consistency such as: using cheap moves, abusing techniques and wording to get a cheap win, Custom Element spamming etc. Comparing last tournament to this one, I'd say that this tournament was a bit smoother because of the number of people and no loser bracket, but also because of the thread where you were able to call out your opponents moves. But in the end there is no real way to win a tournament match. The style of judging does not stay the same nor the variables you'd expect

Example 1

Lets say for example Attacker "A" is using high ranking attacks from the start and is having his opponent defend each turn. His opponent cant seem to dominate the flow of the battle but is able to "survive" turn by turn by just doing enough to live. The attacker would be declared the winner in this case.

Example 2

Lets say for example Attacker "B" is using high ranked techniques from the start and is having his opponent defend each turn. His opponent cant seem to dominate the flow of the battle but is able to "survive" turn by turn by using less powerful techniques or cannons only to defend from Customs etc. Yet, even though surviving the defender still cant dominate the flow of the battle.

The one defending would be called the winner and not the one who dominated the battle because he adverted powerful techniques with cannon or weaker ones, showing superior "skill/strategy". See the comparison between 1 & 2?

Example 3

Lets say Attacker "C" isn't looking to go for the instant kill, or unnecessary spamming from the start of the battle. They start off with a slow way of keeping their opponent defending and controlling the flow of the battle. The attacker is using low ranking techniques to control the battle, while the defender is using high ranking techniques each turn and is still unable to dominate.

I would see that the defender be crowed the winner, because he looked like he "wanted it more." Than the person who was doing less to dominate.

These examples are in no way to take shots at you Scorps, or to undermine your ability especially the last example, but I merely wanted to explain why I think more than one viewpoint is kind of key in some of these rulings instead of one person. I just felt as though it was hard to grasp the concept of:

"What am I fighting for, and how should I try to win?"

"Dominate.....show skill.....defend with ease....go for the instant killl and be seen as a spammer......" Theres never a real way to win.

I certainly see where you're coming from, and if necessary I'll elaborate a lot more, but for now I'll just put a bit of my thoughts on what you're missing here as far as judging consistency goes and why exactly those discrepancies are present. Consistency with opinions is pretty hard to achieve. And the judging does indeed need to be a little different than for sensei or bio tests simply because there are customs involved, which pretty much throws a monkey wrench into our judging merely because not all mods have the same opinion on customs, which is the reason why being consistent here is a lot harder than being consistent there. I'll just respond to each of your examples with a bit of insight on the reason why the results can be different from mod to mod. Because frankly, when a battle ends undefined you're then asking a mod to judge who the better RPer for that fight is. Which isn't an easy question in close fights and is completely dependent on what happened in that specific fight.

Example 1 and 2

See, here you have to define what you mean by high-ranked attacks. There's an extreme difference between high-ranked attacks and OPed customs. I would say that any member in this tournament is capable of defending and countering powerful techniques with the basic five elements, ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijutsu. We saw Typhon stop most of Lili's techniques relying mainly on cannon or otherwise simple Hyuuga Clan techniques. However Typhon did not hold the upper hand while Lili just barely did, and I'd be pretty hard pressed to call any of the customs that she used, while incredibly useful, Oped. So in the case that one member is using powerful customs and holds the upper hand for all of the battle, then there is in fact a chance that they will be crowned the winner. But then what happens when the dominating member is using OPed techniques? And what makes an OP technique? Another obscure question that we can't just slap a criteria on. If one member is using grossly powerful customs that wouldn't be approved today and made it under the radar back in 2009, then yeah, I'd probably give it to the person who's using less and still getting by. Why? If you're using grossly OPed techniques in every move and don't fail to kill your opponent, then to me it's clear who the better RPer is.

Example 3

I don't see what you're getting at here because this is probably the easiest call that you can give me, and part of the reason why three judges aren't necessary. You're giving me an attacker who's using low-ranked customs and cannon techniques and is dominating a battle against a defender using high-ranked customs? To me the attacker would clearly win. I think that any mod would make that call; they just showed who the better RPer was by a long shot. I don't know if you saw this example in the battle (if so then please link me), but I think that you must have misunderstood the call because I don't see how the defender could be declared the winner there for "wanting it more."

My point with responding to each of your examples? Everything is relative. Scorps can easily come to this thread right now and disagree with my take on everything neither of us will be wrong. I disagreed with Scorps and Xylon on the fight between McRazor and Typhon. Every mod generally has the same idea in mind of what makes a good RPer and how we should impartially and fairly judge a battle, but when it comes to judging top-tier RPers against each other in a battle? Inconsistencies are just... inevitable really. Each RPer has there own set of customs and to be honest we grade fights like this based on too many factors to really just say: Ok, you as a mod need to do this this and this when you're judging. We can't reprimand people for using things in their arsenal, but we also can't ignore if one member is using OPed techniques and the other is using intricate strategies and is still surviving. So really, there can't fully be any such thing as "judging consistency" when you have mods who each have their own different take. When a battle has no defined winner what's required from us is no more than an opinion. But an opinion that has multiple factors in which is all relative to how that particular battle was played out. So while we will aim to be more consistent with what we're going for (remember that this is really only the second successful tourney like this, happening back to back, so we as mods need to get a bit on the same page with this a well admittedly) it's... difficult lol. Ya know? I mean, I was practically going back and forth with myself throughout this entire post just now. And I did the exact same in every fight that I was asked to judge.

Now back to having three judges. As far as I can tell, three judges in every fight might even bring more variables to the table, don't you think? Wouldn't you have even more questions on judging consistency if Scorps and I judge the exact same fight and what Scorps thinks is an easy call in one RPers favor I say is an easy call in the other's? Like I said, I think that there should be three mods assigned, each of them grading a certain group of battles per round, but then when a battle is extremely close, the judges convene to discuss that fight. That seems like a logical method to me, but I dunno. I'd like to hear other mods opinions on this before I continue discussing this.

Re: [Grand RP Tournament] Xmas Edition - Feedback and Discussion

Originally Posted by Riku..

I certainly see where you're coming from, and if necessary I'll elaborate a lot more, but for now I'll just put a bit of my thoughts on what you're missing here as far as judging consistency goes and why exactly those discrepancies are present. Consistency with opinions is pretty hard to achieve. And the judging does indeed need to be a little different than for sensei or bio tests simply because there are customs involved, which pretty much throws a monkey wrench into our judging merely because not all mods have the same opinion on customs, which is the reason why being consistent here is a lot harder than being consistent there. I'll just respond to each of your examples with a bit of insight on the reason why the results can be different from mod to mod. Because frankly, when a battle ends undefined you're then asking a mod to judge who the better RPer for that fight is. Which isn't an easy question in close fights and is completely dependent on what happened in that specific fight.

Example 1 and 2

See, here you have to define what you mean by high-ranked attacks. There's an extreme difference between high-ranked attacks and OPed customs. I would say that any member in this tournament is capable of defending and countering powerful techniques with the basic five elements, ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijutsu. We saw Typhon stop most of Lili's techniques relying mainly on cannon or otherwise simple Hyuuga Clan techniques. However Typhon did not hold the upper hand while Lili just barely did, and I'd be pretty hard pressed to call any of the customs that she used, while incredibly useful, Oped. So in the case that one member is using powerful customs and holds the upper hand for all of the battle, then there is in fact a chance that they will be crowned the winner. But then what happens when the dominating member is using OPed techniques? And what makes an OP technique? Another obscure question that we can't just slap a criteria on. If one member is using grossly powerful customs that wouldn't be approved today and made it under the radar back in 2009, then yeah, I'd probably give it to the person who's using less and still getting by. Why? If you're using grossly OPed techniques in every move and don't fail to kill your opponent, then to me it's clear who the better RPer is.

Example 3

I don't see what you're getting at here because this is probably the easiest call that you can give me, and part of the reason why three judges aren't necessary. You're giving me an attacker who's using low-ranked customs and cannon techniques and is dominating a battle against a defender using high-ranked customs? To me the attacker would clearly win. I think that any mod would make that call; they just showed who the better RPer was by a long shot. I don't know if you saw this example in the battle (if so then please link me), but I think that you must have misunderstood the call because I don't see how the defender could be declared the winner there for "wanting it more."

My point with responding to each of your examples? Everything is relative. Scorps can easily come to this thread right now and disagree with my take on everything neither of us will be wrong. I disagreed with Scorps and Xylon on the fight between McRazor and Typhon. Every mod generally has the same idea in mind of what makes a good RPer and how we should impartially and fairly judge a battle, but when it comes to judging top-tier RPers against each other in a battle? Inconsistencies are just... inevitable really. Each RPer has there own set of customs and to be honest we grade fights like this based on too many factors to really just say: Ok, you as a mod need to do this this and this when you're judging. We can't reprimand people for using things in their arsenal, but we also can't ignore if one member is using OPed techniques and the other is using intricate strategies and is still surviving. So really, there can't fully be any such thing as "judging consistency" when you have mods who each have their own different take. When a battle has no defined winner what's required from us is no more than an opinion. But an opinion that has multiple factors in which is all relative to how that particular battle was played out. So while we will aim to be more consistent with what we're going for (remember that this is really only the second successful tourney like this, happening back to back, so we as mods need to get a bit on the same page with this a well admittedly) it's... difficult lol. Ya know? I mean, I was practically going back and forth with myself throughout this entire post just now. And I did the exact same in every fight that I was asked to judge.
Now back to having three judges. As far as I can tell, three judges in every fight might even bring more variables to the table, don't you think? Wouldn't you have even more questions on judging consistency if Scorps and I judge the exact same fight and what Scorps thinks is an easy call in one RPers favor I say is an easy call in the other's? Like I said, I think that there should be three mods assigned, each of them grading a certain group of battles per round, but then when a battle is extremely close, the judges convene to discuss that fight. That seems like a logical method to me, but I dunno. I'd like to hear other mods opinions on this before I continue discussing this.

For the first bold i think that for all intensive purposes that if your able to defend customs with only canon techniques and the match is more or less evenly matched or one person just barely had the upperhand that the canon user should win. I think we can all agree it's easier to defend a custom with another custom. And isnt it just better to award more "points" if you will, to the contestant that made it even with just canon? As for the op techniques, your right theres no criteria for op techniques, its all opinion. However, canon techniques were made by the creator of naruto. Who are we to say which of HIS techniques are op? Its his manga right? Customs are thought of by people with little to no experience in writting a succesful manga and approved by people with that same level of experience who THINK that it is possible in the context of the rules of naruto. Customs clearly have more potential to be Op'd then canon techniques and thus if one contestant is using high ranked customs throughout the battle they should be "punished" for it (or atleast that should be taken into heavy consideration when deciding the winner) if their opponent has only or mostly used canon techniques. In short, if its mainly canon vs custom and its pretty much even or the custom user has a slight advantage then the canon user should have won by a longshot. This is simply the punishment needed for custom spammers.

@The second bold I like this idea, but who is to say what a close battle is? Its open to interpretation. As you said, one mod may think its an easy call and the other may not

Re: [Grand RP Tournament] Xmas Edition - Feedback and Discussion

I disagree. There's a lot of prejudice against custom techniques vs cannon techniques. Techniques are techniques, and all have a counter. There is no technique without a proper counter, at least not in this RP, custom or cannon. Getting one-shotted or defeated by a technique is not because the technique is invincible, it's just that it was used in the right time and the right circumstances. Showing skills with customs is exactly the same as showing skill with cannon. Customs aren't better tools, they're different tools, and it's how one uses what they have that shows skills. In sum, it's not about what tools you have, but what you do with them.

So, in the example you showed, if a member is using high ranked techniques, and his opponent is just surviving, the winner shouldn't be decided by cannon or custom, but by how long could the match continue that way. If you're using a pretty renewable technique to drive your opponent to the corner, while your opponent is using more chakra and taking more damage, then, in the end, he will run out of chakra and be defeated. But if you're launching bazookas and your opponent is countering it with a pretty renewable or more durable technique, then the attacker who controlled the flow of the fight all along will eventually run out and be defeated.

Re: [Grand RP Tournament] Xmas Edition - Feedback and Discussion

Originally Posted by Riku..

I certainly see where you're coming from, and if necessary I'll elaborate a lot more, but for now I'll just put a bit of my thoughts on what you're missing here as far as judging consistency goes and why exactly those discrepancies are present. Consistency with opinions is pretty hard to achieve. And the judging does indeed need to be a little different than for sensei or bio tests simply because there are customs involved, which pretty much throws a monkey wrench into our judging merely because not all mods have the same opinion on customs, which is the reason why being consistent here is a lot harder than being consistent there. I'll just respond to each of your examples with a bit of insight on the reason why the results can be different from mod to mod. Because frankly, when a battle ends undefined you're then asking a mod to judge who the better RPer for that fight is. Which isn't an easy question in close fights and is completely dependent on what happened in that specific fight.

Example 1 and 2

See, here you have to define what you mean by high-ranked attacks. There's an extreme difference between high-ranked attacks and OPed customs. I would say that any member in this tournament is capable of defending and countering powerful techniques with the basic five elements, ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijutsu. We saw Typhon stop most of Lili's techniques relying mainly on cannon or otherwise simple Hyuuga Clan techniques. However Typhon did not hold the upper hand while Lili just barely did, and I'd be pretty hard pressed to call any of the customs that she used, while incredibly useful, Oped. So in the case that one member is using powerful customs and holds the upper hand for all of the battle, then there is in fact a chance that they will be crowned the winner. But then what happens when the dominating member is using OPed techniques? And what makes an OP technique? Another obscure question that we can't just slap a criteria on. If one member is using grossly powerful customs that wouldn't be approved today and made it under the radar back in 2009, then yeah, I'd probably give it to the person who's using less and still getting by. Why? If you're using grossly OPed techniques in every move and don't fail to kill your opponent, then to me it's clear who the better RPer is.

Example 3

I don't see what you're getting at here because this is probably the easiest call that you can give me, and part of the reason why three judges aren't necessary. You're giving me an attacker who's using low-ranked customs and cannon techniques and is dominating a battle against a defender using high-ranked customs? To me the attacker would clearly win. I think that any mod would make that call; they just showed who the better RPer was by a long shot. I don't know if you saw this example in the battle (if so then please link me), but I think that you must have misunderstood the call because I don't see how the defender could be declared the winner there for "wanting it more."

My point with responding to each of your examples? Everything is relative. Scorps can easily come to this thread right now and disagree with my take on everything neither of us will be wrong. I disagreed with Scorps and Xylon on the fight between McRazor and Typhon. Every mod generally has the same idea in mind of what makes a good RPer and how we should impartially and fairly judge a battle, but when it comes to judging top-tier RPers against each other in a battle? Inconsistencies are just... inevitable really. Each RPer has there own set of customs and to be honest we grade fights like this based on too many factors to really just say: Ok, you as a mod need to do this this and this when you're judging. We can't reprimand people for using things in their arsenal, but we also can't ignore if one member is using OPed techniques and the other is using intricate strategies and is still surviving. So really, there can't fully be any such thing as "judging consistency" when you have mods who each have their own different take. When a battle has no defined winner what's required from us is no more than an opinion. But an opinion that has multiple factors in which is all relative to how that particular battle was played out. So while we will aim to be more consistent with what we're going for (remember that this is really only the second successful tourney like this, happening back to back, so we as mods need to get a bit on the same page with this a well admittedly) it's... difficult lol. Ya know? I mean, I was practically going back and forth with myself throughout this entire post just now. And I did the exact same in every fight that I was asked to judge.

Now back to having three judges. As far as I can tell, three judges in every fight might even bring more variables to the table, don't you think? Wouldn't you have even more questions on judging consistency if Scorps and I judge the exact same fight and what Scorps thinks is an easy call in one RPers favor I say is an easy call in the other's? Like I said, I think that there should be three mods assigned, each of them grading a certain group of battles per round, but then when a battle is extremely close, the judges convene to discuss that fight. That seems like a logical method to me, but I dunno. I'd like to hear other mods opinions on this before I continue discussing this.

I agree, the fact that customs are thrown into the mix presents you guys with some inconceivable challenges, but my main priority was the fact that McRazor had said that it would've been better to have more than one judge to avoid the idea that people will try to call "bias." It's almost unavoidable when people are competing for these prizes and they just don't want to value defeat and accept it without arguing, whether they may be right or wrong. To understand consistency, is to understand what variable you are actually given from the start, so I would say, whether it was one mod or the other, there is a single mod judging every fight form the first round to the third. So applying Scorps as a constant variable would be acceptable in this case. We'd say that his ideas of customs and what it takes to win shall stay the same over a course of time, given the other variables that factor in such as refining his reasoning of judgements based on whatever the case may be for needing to change his concept of how things carried along.

I could have gone extremely in debt to what I meant in my examples, but my main purpose was not to argue the the rulings or say that something was done wrong. But to mainly give a theoretical series of examples that clearly define where people can have different outlooks to what makes a winner and a better Rpr than the other.

I agree with most of what you said, I was gonna type a long wallie but overall I feel that Im in the wrong for giving vague examples and not really sitting down to really understand those concepts. Because they do pass through my conscious but I never really elaborated the thoughts, or had to be in one of your shoes and literally judge every single fight that took place myself, so I have no room to talk ^_^

Re: [Grand RP Tournament] Xmas Edition - Feedback and Discussion

Originally Posted by -Broly-

For the first bold i think that for all intensive purposes that if your able to defend customs with only canon techniques and the match is more or less evenly matched or one person just barely had the upperhand that the canon user should win. I think we can all agree it's easier to defend a custom with another custom. And isnt it just better to award more "points" if you will, to the contestant that made it even with just canon? As for the op techniques, your right theres no criteria for op techniques, its all opinion. However, canon techniques were made by the creator of naruto. Who are we to say which of HIS techniques are op? Its his manga right? Customs are thought of by people with little to no experience in writting a succesful manga and approved by people with that same level of experience who THINK that it is possible in the context of the rules of naruto. Customs clearly have more potential to be Op'd then canon techniques and thus if one contestant is using high ranked customs throughout the battle they should be "punished" for it (or atleast that should be taken into heavy consideration when deciding the winner) if their opponent has only or mostly used canon techniques. In short, if its mainly canon vs custom and its pretty much even or the custom user has a slight advantage then the canon user should have won by a longshot. This is simply the punishment needed for custom spammers.

@The second bold I like this idea, but who is to say what a close battle is? Its open to interpretation. As you said, one mod may think its an easy call and the other may not

I won't really argue this since Lili already did for the most part, between what she said and my response to her, that's pretty much my entire take on it.

Originally Posted by Lili-Chwan

I disagree. There's a lot of prejudice against custom techniques vs cannon techniques. Techniques are techniques, and all have a counter. There is no technique without a proper counter, at least not in this RP, custom or cannon. Getting one-shotted or defeated by a technique is not because the technique is invincible, it's just that it was used in the right time and the right circumstances. Showing skills with customs is exactly the same as showing skill with cannon. Customs aren't better tools, they're different tools, and it's how one uses what they have that shows skills. In sum, it's not about what tools you have, but what you do with them.

So, in the example you showed, if a member is using high ranked techniques, and his opponent is just surviving, the winner shouldn't be decided by cannon or custom, but by how long could the match continue that way. If you're using a pretty renewable technique to drive your opponent to the corner, while your opponent is using more chakra and taking more damage, then, in the end, he will run out of chakra and be defeated. But if you're launching bazookas and your opponent is countering it with a pretty renewable or more durable technique, then the attacker who controlled the flow of the fight all along will eventually run out and be defeated.

I agree with what you're saying here almost fully. That would be completely applicable unless in the situation where someone is using grossly OPed techniques, which is where we have to question things. Your logic applies to any and every custom that has been approved recently and any and every custom that is restricted and made up to the standards that we hold them to right now. But you can't ignore that if an old member who has one of those ridiculously powerful customs comes in and fights a newer member who doesn't have anything to match up against that. I'll use Mugi as an example. He has a great amount of skill and strategy, I'm not saying that he doesn't, but if he wanted to he could fight without a bit of strategy and still put most people in a corner. Let's take his sound technique that instantaneously releases a 360 wave of sound across the battle field that decimates anyone and anything in its path. In that case, it's not about when you use the custom, it's about the custom itself. Customs shouldn't be better tools, but some of them just are. Some people do have customs that no matter when you use them can still be practically unavoidable. Again, customs like that haven't been approved since, hm, I'd say 2011-ish, but the fact that they're still around skews our ability, or mine at least, to judge certain fights. It's just something that's still present, but not really a pressing factor since a lot of people with those customs barely even RP anymore anyway. Now that said, I didn't see the problem really arise in this tourney, but it certainly can in the future, which is the only reason why I'm mentioning it.

Originally Posted by Nagato..

I agree, the fact that customs are thrown into the mix presents you guys with some inconceivable challenges, but my main priority was the fact that McRazor had said that it would've been better to have more than one judge to avoid the idea that people will try to call "bias." It's almost unavoidable when people are competing for these prizes and they just don't want to value defeat and accept it without arguing, whether they may be right or wrong. To understand consistency, is to understand what variable you are actually given from the start, so I would say, whether it was one mod or the other, there is a single mod judging every fight form the first round to the third. So applying Scorps as a constant variable would be acceptable in this case. We'd say that his ideas of customs and what it takes to win shall stay the same over a course of time, given the other variables that factor in such as refining his reasoning of judgements based on whatever the case may be for needing to change his concept of how things carried along.

I could have gone extremely in debt to what I meant in my examples, but my main purpose was not to argue the the rulings or say that something was done wrong. But to mainly give a theoretical series of examples that clearly define where people can have different outlooks to what makes a winner and a better Rpr than the other.

I agree with most of what you said, I was gonna type a long wallie but overall I feel that Im in the wrong for giving vague examples and not really sitting down to really understand those concepts. Because they do pass through my conscious but I never really elaborated the thoughts, or had to be in one of your shoes and literally judge every single fight that took place myself, so I have no room to talk ^_^

You certainly have room to talk, that's why this thread was made. Not only regardless of your position but BECAUSE of your position; you guys the main ones who are going to be participating in these tourneys, so speak your mind about them lol. But like I said, I think I'll wait for another mod before I say much more.

Re: [Grand RP Tournament] Xmas Edition - Feedback and Discussion

Originally Posted by Lili-Chwan

I disagree. There's a lot of prejudice against custom techniques vs cannon techniques. Techniques are techniques, and all have a counter. There is no technique without a proper counter, at least not in this RP, custom or cannon. Getting one-shotted or defeated by a technique is not because the technique is invincible, it's just that it was used in the right time and the right circumstances. Showing skills with customs is exactly the same as showing skill with cannon. Customs aren't better tools, they're different tools, and it's how one uses what they have that shows skills. In sum, it's not about what tools you have, but what you do with them.

So, in the example you showed, if a member is using high ranked techniques, and his opponent is just surviving, the winner shouldn't be decided by cannon or custom, but by how long could the match continue that way. If you're using a pretty renewable technique to drive your opponent to the corner, while your opponent is using more chakra and taking more damage, then, in the end, he will run out of chakra and be defeated. But if you're launching bazookas and your opponent is countering it with a pretty renewable or more durable technique, then the attacker who controlled the flow of the fight all along will eventually run out and be defeated.

@1st bold With good reason.
@2nd bold. WRONG. Dead wrong, looking back at the techniques that were approved before everything was restricted so much will show you that these techniques are at a scale that are probably impossible in the manga. As i said, you have techniques that are "Kishimoto approved" if you will and techniques that some fans think are possible. Think of decay release. Can you imagine someone in naruto wielding that? I'm sure even Kishi would laugh his ass off at someone suggesting decay release were possible in his manga but thats really sort of a sidebar (not saying decay release is stupid or anything, its a VERY well made ce, but MOST ce's would be laughed at if you could think of someone wielding it in naruto and i was just using decay as an example since its the first i thought of). Whether they are counterable or not isnt the problem and wasnt suggested. No, the problem is that customs have 1000x more chance to be op (and in all likelihood ARE more op) than regular canons and as such canons could easily be viewed as "weaker" than most custom techniques. Especially the high ranking ones. This goes back to what Nagato was saying about how if the attacker is using super strong and high ranked techniques and the defender is keeping up with the attacker or is evenly matched with the attacker, while using weaker techniques, the defender is clearly the more skilled and should be the victor. If they were being completely honest im sure most people would agree that customs are stronger than canons for the most part. Therefore the reasoning that if you are able to be evenly matched or just a bit behind an opponent who is mainly using customs (stronger techniques) while only using canons (weaker techniques) that you are the more skilled and should obviously be the victor. Its pretty cut and dry to me.

@3rd bold. Compare the top 20 strongest canons to the top 20 strongest customs on base (of course since theres about 400 canons and waaaay more customs it should be a larger number like the top 100 or 200 to get a REAL feel of whats stronger but i think even with 20 it should be clear) Be honest and tell me which group is stronger and then see if you can repeat that. Customs are indeed stronger tools. Let me take that back, MOST are, not all.

@4th bold well yes if your just barely surviving then you lost no matter what was used or how much your opponent spammed customs (of course i think someone should lose just for doing that but it has no place in the discussion) But in cases like, as riku said, your and typhons battle where he mainly used canons and you were only a bit ahead, Typhon should have been the winner in a landslide for making an even match against maninly customs with just canon techniques.

EDIT: this is getting to be one of my custom rants again which isnt what this whole thing is about. In my experience older members will not understand what I just typed for one reason or another and newer members (or atleast me) will never understand the reasoning of the older ones. We agree to disagree and move onwards. This discussion is about the tournament and we should start swinging it back towards that

Re: [Grand RP Tournament] Xmas Edition - Feedback and Discussion

Originally Posted by Lili-Chwan

I disagree. There's a lot of prejudice against custom techniques vs cannon techniques. Techniques are techniques, and all have a counter. There is no technique without a proper counter, at least not in this RP, custom or cannon. Getting one-shotted or defeated by a technique is not because the technique is invincible, it's just that it was used in the right time and the right circumstances. Showing skills with customs is exactly the same as showing skill with cannon. Customs aren't better tools, they're different tools, and it's how one uses what they have that shows skills. In sum, it's not about what tools you have, but what you do with them.

So, in the example you showed, if a member is using high ranked techniques, and his opponent is just surviving, the winner shouldn't be decided by cannon or custom, but by how long could the match continue that way. If you're using a pretty renewable technique to drive your opponent to the corner, while your opponent is using more chakra and taking more damage, then, in the end, he will run out of chakra and be defeated. But if you're launching bazookas and your opponent is countering it with a pretty renewable or more durable technique, then the attacker who controlled the flow of the fight all along will eventually run out and be defeated.

Liliana is correct here.

Originally Posted by -Broly-

2nd bold. WRONG. Dead wrong, looking back at the techniques that were approved before everything was restricted so much will show you that these techniques are at a scale that are probably impossible in the manga. As i said, you have techniques that are "Kishimoto approved" if you will and techniques that some fans think are possible. Think of decay release. Can you imagine someone in naruto wielding that? I'm sure even Kishi would laugh his ass off at someone suggesting decay release were possible in his manga but thats really sort of a sidebar (not saying decay release is stupid or anything, its a VERY well made ce, but MOST ce's would be laughed at if you could think of someone wielding it in naruto and i was just using decay as an example since its the first i thought of). Whether they are counterable or not isnt the problem and wasnt suggested. No, the problem is that customs have 1000x more chance to be op (and in all likelihood ARE more op) than regular canons and as such canons could easily be viewed as "weaker" than most custom techniques. Especially the high ranking ones. This goes back to what Nagato was saying about how if the attacker is using super strong and high ranked techniques and the defender is keeping up with the attacker or is evenly matched with the attacker, while using weaker techniques, the defender is clearly the more skilled and should be the victor. If they were being completely honest im sure most people would agree that customs are stronger than canons for the most part. Therefore the reasoning that if you are able to be evenly matched or just a bit behind an opponent who is mainly using customs (stronger techniques) while only using canons (weaker techniques) that you are the more skilled and should obviously be the victor. Its pretty cut and dry to me.

No, not really. If we go by comparing our custom system and the actual Kishi version, then kishi would laugh at the simple fact that we all role play as if we were a bijuu, i mean, we can use S ranks every single turn, and it won't matter, in the anime an S rank can bring down the stamina and chakra of most regular ninja.

As lili said, every custom has a counter, regardless of how strong it may be. The reason why cannon are viewed weaker than customs is because not everyone has acces to every custom, and since customs aren't shown in the anime/manga (obviously) people struggle to find a proper counter, but the counter always exists. However, i do agree that customs approved back in 09/10 are rather "vague" or "ridiculous". I remember seeing Mugiwara using a technique that travels at the speed of sound or light, and it leaves that target blind and def, in my opinon that custom would have never been approved in these days. Why? because RP mods make sure that every technique they approve has a counter, wich is something that i think mods back then "lacked" or ignored, mainly because there weren't many people and there was less arguments. So yeah, showing skill in using customs is the same as showing skill using cannons, because in the end, they are all techniques, and all have counters.

Like the great Scorps said one day "Creating a custom show's skill of one's knowledge"

Re: [Grand RP Tournament] Xmas Edition - Feedback and Discussion

Originally Posted by Gildarts Clive

Liliana is correct here.

No, not really. If we go by comparing our custom system and the actual Kishi version, then kishi would laugh at the simple fact that we all role play as if we were a bijuu, i mean, we can use S ranks every single turn, and it won't matter, in the anime an S rank can bring down the stamina and chakra of most regular ninja.

As lili said, every custom has a counter, regardless of how strong it may be. The reason why cannon are viewed weaker than customs is because not everyone has acces to every custom, and since customs aren't shown in the anime/manga (obviously) people struggle to find a proper counter, but the counter always exists. However, i do agree that customs approved back in 09/10 are rather "vague" or "ridiculous". I remember seeing Mugiwara using a technique that travels at the speed of sound or light, and it leaves that target blind and def, in my opinon that custom would have never been approved in these days. Why? because RP mods make sure that every technique they approve has a counter, wich is something that i think mods back then "lacked" or ignored, mainly because there weren't many people and there was less arguments. So yeah, showing skill in using customs is the same as showing skill using cannons, because in the end, they are all techniques, and all have counters.

Like the great Scorps said one day "Creating a custom show's skill of one's knowledge"

@1st bold. You have completely and I MEAN completely 100% missed the point of why i made that comparison for numerous reasons. And actually we have a chakra and health system in place. Lili actually uses it. Nearly everyone else ignores it. So if we were to rp exactly how the rules state I dont know how kishi could laugh at that.. Not as much as he would laugh at someone who used blazing earth at least. I mean whats more ridiculous to you? Ninjas that never tire? Or someone with the power to wield water that is 5k degrees? Keep in mind the first concept is already in naruto in the form of edo tensei and naruto's nearly endless stamina.

2nd bold Ive actually already touched on this part in my post that you quoted but I guess i can do a repeat. The (untrue) statement that EVERY custom has a counter has nothing to do with this. What DOES is that no matter how you want to say it or how you try to reason it out, most customs are stronger then most canon jutsu. Period. There's no getting around it and to say otherwise would make you look very ignorant. As scorps also said, "there are over 400 canon jutsu" Thats pretty vast right? Take the top 20, the top 50, the top 100 of all the canon jutsu and compare them to top number of customs and its really no competition. That may not even be a good reason to prove customs are stronger than canon jutsu for the most part but the fact remains that a sane person would say that for the most part customs are stronger than canon. And as much as I feel that I dont even need to prove that customs are stronger than canon jutsu I just KNOW someones going to come and flat out say (in a very desperate attempt to defend their position) that I'm wrong and we live in a land of bubble gum and rainbows and their both equal. I just know someones gonna give me that bs that "its the user not the technique" when they KNOW thats untrue. If i had every single custom ever made and you had all the canon jutsus I would wipe you off the map no matter who much more skilled you are then me.

2nd bold With all due respect that is ridiculous. REALLY ridiculous. Even Zen agreed with me when I said something like what I'm saying now, and I can show you the quote. Anyway, no this is so not true. Why do you think customs arent allowed in bio tests? Your telling me that someone spamming Ce's shows the same skill as someone only using canon to combat and evenly match them? Oh its well and good (which for the record I dont agree with) if you create the custom but what about the people that use other peoples customs? Is it still their own skill then? Remember the cj wells? Is it skill to use the cj's you got out of them? If you had no hand in that technique is it still skill to use it? This is different from canons because even though we didnt create it, EVERYONE (at least in this tournament) had access to the base 5. So its a level playing field EXCEPT for all the custom spam.

Re: [Grand RP Tournament] Xmas Edition - Feedback and Discussion

Originally Posted by Gildarts Clive

Like the great Scorps said one day "Creating a custom show's skill of one's knowledge"

i have to disagree with this line completely, because as Broly did point out, it's not skill to USE CJ, i agree that thinking of some good original CJs is cool and stuff, but really now, just because some people are not good at making CJs, does that mean that they are not smart? smh, that is idiotic talking

i say there should be more tourneys with Cannons only, that is where real skill shows itself, by that i mean even without KGs and Hidden Abilities and Specialties of each bio if need be, that is where skill shows, not in tournament which shows who has most powerful CJs

Re: [Grand RP Tournament] Xmas Edition - Feedback and Discussion

Originally Posted by Migualon J.J.

i have to disagree with this line completely, because as Broly did point out, it's not skill to USE CJ, i agree that thinking of some good original CJs is cool and stuff, but really now, just because some people are not good at making CJs, does that mean that they are not smart? smh, that is idiotic talking

i say there should be more tourneys with Cannons only, that is where real skill shows itself, by that i mean even without KGs and Hidden Abilities and Specialties of each bio if need be, that is where skill shows, not in tournament which shows who has most powerful CJs

Oh my god! Could it be??? A believer!!! Someone who isnt shamelessly defending something which isnt true? rep to you good sir

Mig dont even try it. They wont do it. Theyre scared... terrified of what the results of such a tournament could have. This is the only explanation that I can think of to why they wont just try it once.

Re: [Grand RP Tournament] Xmas Edition - Feedback and Discussion

Originally Posted by -Broly-

@1st bold. You have completely and I MEAN completely 100% missed the point of why i made that comparison for numerous reasons. And actually we have a chakra and health system in place. Lili actually uses it. Everyone else ignores it. So if we were to rp exactly how the rules state I dont know how kishi could laugh at that.. Not as much as he would laugh at someone who used blazing earth at least. I mean whats more ridiculous to you? Ninjas that never tire? Or someone with the power to wield water that is 5k degrees? Keep in mind the first concept is already in naruto in the form of edo tensei and naruto's nearly endless stamina.

2nd bold Ive actually already touched on this part in my post that you quoted but I guess i can do a repeat. The (untrue) statement that EVERY custom has a counter has nothing to do with this. What DOES is that no matter how you want to say it or how you try to reason it out, most customs are stronger then most canon jutsu. Period. There's no getting around it and to say otherwise would make you look very ignorant. As scorps also said, "there are over 400 canon jutsu" Thats pretty vast right? Take the top 20, the top 50, the top 100 of all the canon jutsu and compare them to top number of customs and its really no competition. That may not even be a good reason to prove customs are stronger than canon jutsu for the most part but the fact remains that a sane person would say that for the most part customs are stronger than canon.

2nd bold With all due respect that is ridiculous. REALLY ridiculous. Even Zen agreed with me when I said something like what I'm saying now, and I can show you the quote. Anyway, no this is so not true. Why do you think customs arent allowed in bio tests? Your telling me that someone spamming Ce's shows the same skill as someone only using canon to combat and evenly match them? Oh its well and good (which for the record I dont agree with) if you create the custom but what about the people that use other peoples customs? Is it still their own skill then? Remember the cj wells? Is it skill to use the cj's you got out of them? If you had no hand in that technique is it still skill to use it? This is different from canons because even though we didnt create it, EVERYONE (at least in this tournament) had access to the base 5. So its a level playing field

1st bold: Why don't we stop saying that kishi would laugh at customs that other people worked so hard to create, ok mate?

2nd: Customs do have more strenth than cannon, but if you use it wrong, it won't matter, wich brings me back to what i already said, customs and cannon are all techniques, let them be stronger or weaker, in the end they are all technique, with a weakness/counter, Period. Saying others would look ignorant because they don't agree with you, makes you look ignorant.

Your last thingy: Customs are actually allowed in some rain tests if you take a quick look. lol Yes! Did you not read Better's fight against Liliana in the tournament?? Lili obviously made use of her CE and better countered and survived with only cannon techniques, showing the same skill as lili, even without using customs. And it could very well be the same way around, Because it's not "spamming Ce's ", because they are elements, created by us, but in the end, elements, otherwise i could very well say that Better "Spammed Cannons" in his fight with Liliana. And yeah, even if they didn't create the custom, if they use it properly, they are showing skill with it, by understanding how it works and using it at the right timing.

Originally Posted by Migualon J.J.

i have to disagree with this line completely, because as Broly did point out, it's not skill to USE CJ, i agree that thinking of some good original CJs is cool and stuff, but really now, just because some people are not good at making CJs, does that mean that they are not smart? smh, that is idiotic talking

i say there should be more tourneys with Cannons only, that is where real skill shows itself, by that i mean even without KGs and Hidden Abilities and Specialties of each bio if need be, that is where skill shows, not in tournament which shows who has most powerful CJs

You're not getting the point of the sentence, i said "Creating a custom show's skill of one's knowledge" (knowledge referring to their understanding of the RP and techniques)

Now read it, does it say using a custom shows skill? Does it?

And, that people don't make good customs doesn't mean that they aren't smart, questioning that itself is Idiotic.

The second part, lol, i agree that a cannon only tournament would make you guys happy, i'm on board with that, but saying that using cannon only is true skill is rather "idiotic talking" like Lili said herself "Customs aren't better tools, they're different tools, and it's how one uses what they have that shows skills. In sum, it's not about what tools you have, but what you do with them."

Re: [Grand RP Tournament] Xmas Edition - Feedback and Discussion

Originally Posted by Gildarts Clive

1st bold: Why don't we stop saying that kishi would laugh at customs that other people worked so hard to create, ok mate?

2nd: Customs do have more strenth than cannon, but if you use it wrong, it won't matter, wich brings me back to what i already said, customs and cannon are all techniques, let them be stronger or weaker, in the end they are all technique, with a weakness/counter, Period. Saying others would look ignorant because they don't agree with you, makes you look ignorant.

Your last thingy: Customs are actually allowed in some rain tests if you take a quick look. lol Yes! Did you not read Better's fight against Liliana in the tournament?? Lili obviously made use of her CE and better countered and survived with only cannon techniques, showing the same skill as lili, even without using customs. And it could very well be the same way around, Because it's not "spamming Ce's ", because they are elements, created by us, but in the end, elements, otherwise i could very well say that Better "Spammed Cannons" in his fight with Liliana. And yeah, even if they didn't create the custom, if they use it properly, they are showing skill with it, by understanding how it works and using it at the right timing.

1st bold like i said in the first post that started this Im not making fun of anyones ce's. In fact the ones ive mentioned so far are well made. But you are high if you think Kishi would even CONSIDER putting any of the ones ive mentioned into naruto.

@ bold Customs are stronger than canon. Thats all I wanted. So if the attacker has only used customs and the defender has only used canon's then they have matched that person by using weaker techniques, thus showing more skill and SHOULD make them the victor. Thats really all I wanted to hear. But to the other part theres a counter to a gun and theres a counter to a knife. They arent equal though, thats the flaw in your reasoning. If you told me that just because there was a counter to the gun and the knife and I said that they were still equal wouldnt you call me ignorant? (Guess which is the gun, the custom or the canon)

@3rd bold. This was JUST allowed, for what reason i know not. But for all the IMPORTANT tests you know like Bio tests and sensei tests they are disallowed and I think you know why. Yes I did. And if better had evenly matched her in that battle with (as you said) weaker techniques, which are canon then he should have won. Never did I say that its impossible to counter customs with canon, in fact as a canon only user I HAVE to do this to survive. I can count on my fingers the amount of custom jutsu I've used here in the year that Ive been rp'ing. And gildarts, if you spam ce's. Your spamming ce's. Your grabbing at straws here. Have you EVER heard someone complain "Oh man that guy sucks, he's always spamming canon jutsus" But how many time have you heard the term "spamming customs" thrown around?

By your OWN admission canon techniques are weaker than customs. So how is using customs and using canons showing the same skill exactly?

The second part, lol, i agree that a cannon only tournament would make you guys happy, i'm on board with that, but saying that using cannon only is true skill is rather "idiotic talking" like Lili said herself "Customs aren't better tools, they're different tools, and it's how one uses what they have that shows skills.In sum, it's not about what tools you have, but what you do with them."

Canon only IS true skill. For various reasons that I can explain to you if you'd like. BUt what I'm really interested in is in bold. You can no longer say that. YOU said customs are stronger. Stronger= better. You have just disagreed with Lili. If i have a brand new hammer made of the best material and you have a stick and were trying to hammer in a nail. Does it really matter what tools we have at that point?

You're not getting the point of the sentence, i said "Creating a custom show's skill of one's knowledge" (knowledge referring to their understanding of the RP and techniques)

Now read it, does it say using a custom shows skill? Does it?

If using a custom DOESNT show skill then what are you here defending exactly?

Re: [Grand RP Tournament] Xmas Edition - Feedback and Discussion

Originally Posted by -Broly-

1st bold like i said in the first post that started this Im not making fun of anyones ce's. In fact the ones ive mentioned so far are well made. But you are high if you think Kishi would even CONSIDER putting any of the ones ive mentioned into naruto.

@ bold Customs are stronger than canon. Thats all I wanted. So if the attacker has only used customs and the defender has only used canon's then they have matched that person by using weaker techniques, thus showing more skill and SHOULD make them the victor. Thats really all I wanted to hear. But to the other part theres a counter to a gun and theres a counter to a knife. They arent equal though, thats the flaw in your reasoning. If you told me that just because there was a counter to the gun and the knife and I said that they were still equal wouldnt you call me ignorant? (Guess which is the gun, the custom or the canon)

@3rd bold. This was JUST allowed, for what reason i know not. But for all the IMPORTANT tests you know like Bio tests and sensei tests they are disallowed and I think you know why. Yes I did. And if better had evenly matched her in that battle with (as you said) weaker techniques, which are canon then he should have won. Never did I say that its impossible to counter customs with canon, in fact as a canon only user I HAVE to do this to survive. I can count on my fingers the amount of custom jutsu I've used here in the year that Ive been rp'ing. And gildarts, if you spam ce's. Your spamming ce's. Your grabbing at straws here. Have you EVER heard someone complain "Oh man that guy sucks, he's always spamming canon jutsus" But how many time have you heard the term "spamming customs" thrown around?

1st. Did i say i did think that?

2nd. I guess we agree in most of that part. But, again with the comparing, it's rather vague. Customs and Cannons are both techniques, guns and knifes, are two diferent objects, if you'd had mentioned 2 diferent types of guns, then it would've made more sense, so there's the flaw in your reasoning.

3rd. To show understanding of the basics obviously, that they arent allowed to use customs doesn't mean that using them doesn't show skill. Yes, he would have won, but lili had more pressure on him than he did on her. And Broly, if you spam Cannons..you spam cannons. Because like i already said for the 3rd time, they are ALL techniques/elements, they are all meant to be used in battle. However since some are customs, people can't find a proper counter depending on the situation, therefor they lose and complain "Oh man that guy sucks, he spammed customs" um..LOL he did not, he just made use of the techniques at his disposal, customs are also techniques meant to be used in battle. Wich means that the person who lost is a sore loser, wich takes me to the next point, NO ONE wants to lose anymore. (wich is not the main topic right now)

Re: [Grand RP Tournament] Xmas Edition - Feedback and Discussion

Originally Posted by Gildarts Clive

1st bold: Why don't we stop saying that kishi would laugh at customs that other people worked so hard to create, ok mate?

2nd: Customs do have more strenth than cannon, but if you use it wrong, it won't matter, wich brings me back to what i already said, customs and cannon are all techniques, let them be stronger or weaker, in the end they are all technique, with a weakness/counter, Period. Saying others would look ignorant because they don't agree with you, makes you look ignorant.

The second part, lol, i agree that a cannon only tournament would make you guys happy, i'm on board with that, but saying that using cannon only is true skill is rather "idiotic talking" like Lili said herself "Customs aren't better tools, they're different tools, and it's how one uses what they have that shows skills. In sum, it's not about what tools you have, but what you do with them."

did you just in 1 post say complete opposit of what you said? O__O bolded parts and most importantly underlined ones i mean

now could you please tell me which one of those i am supposed to consider your opinion?