As far as the "Why do they bury Flair?" sub-discussion in this thread, there's a couple of things to consider. First, during the NWA days, when the Hogan-led WWF started it's meteoric rise to the top, Flair was the figurehead of the NWA with the 4 Horsemen, and he never, ever failed to put over Jim Crockett promotions during his interviews. He never made any secret of his dislike for Hogan during that time, and despite the kayfabe nature of that time period, it was well-known that Flair despised Hogan. Hogan made VKM a ton of money back then, and they managed to put JCP out of business for all intents and purposes, forcing them to sell out to Turner. Then, there was Flair's 91-92 run in the WWF. It was moderately successful, but he never made the mad money that was expected from such a momentous jump. Again, the bottom line with Vince back then was, can you make me money? Also, let's not forget that when Flair was handed the co-owner storyline and it crapped out, it was largely blamed on Flair. Since nothing bad can be blamed on the writing/creative end of things, they still use the antiquated "Let's punish the wrestlers involved, the writing was fine, they just didn't make it work" excuse. So, the strikes against Flair during this at-bat are many. Former NWA/WCW guy, was never as big as Hogan during the heyday, blew the "Co-owner" storyline. It's likely that HHH is actually keeping Flair around by insisting that he be there to play Dillon for him. I don't love HHH, but hey, at least he's keeping one of my all-time favorites around. I marked out like a sonofabitch last night when Flair chop blocked Helms, dropped the knee twice, grabbed the leg, looked up and said "Now! Now!" Figure four, lights out. Loved it.

As far as the rest of Raw, it's amazing to me that they can't figure out that after the crowd pops for the entrances, they sit on their hands until finishers. The poop from backstage, especially from Meltzer, is that Vince is on record as saying that they have to slow things down, build matches and try to tell a story. Okay, fine, I'm on board with that. When, prey tell, are they going to start? Just a question.

As far as Rodney Mack goes, put him in there with a name, for crying out loud. He would have drawn huge, and I mean insanely huge heel heat if they had put him over Dreamer in Philly. Teddy Long is gold on the mic though.

Nash and Michaels get no mic time? What the hell? When did promos go bye-bye? Of course, HHH gets to be in three or four segments, including the pointless "I made you" promo with Jericho, but the guy that he's taking on on Sunday and his second get nothing before the main event match? Damn.

Dudleys/3MW. I don't have much to say about this. The Dudz need to go to SD and fight Eddy/Chavito or Los G's. Do something. Anything. And 3MW, who could have been something, have been reduced to utter jokes. Sad to see Blassie in a wheelchair though. I think if Nikolai Volkoff had run out to save him, I'd have fallen out of my chair.

Women's match. Okay, so it's the seminal home of ECW. Let's have a hardcore match, and put Dreamer and Richards out there with some weapons and some hot chicks. Dunno, just didn't do it for me, and Trish seems to get so keyed up when she's out there that when they blow a spot, they can't recover. Ah well.

I was just blah about the show tonight. Won't be getting the PPV on Sunday, have plans. I'll read the 'caps on Monday. Scary that it's gotten to this.

Simple way to make me happy: 2003 World Series Champions, Your Boston Red Sox

"You may be wondering why I have been making so many references lately to Fox News. The reason is that it is now my cable news network of choice -- because if Iím going to watch the news and be lied to, I want it to be ridiculously obvious that I am being lied to." -- Center for an Informed America, Newsletter #34

Originally posted by WpobThe biggest problem I had with RAW was while enjoying the Flair/Hurricane match, I kept thining to myself that it was wierd that HHH is not out to make the save. To my utmost enjoyment, the match ends cleanly (who cares who won) and happiness abounds. Then, here comes Hunter. At first ti was OK because he was showing enthusiasm for Flair winning. he raised Flair's hand and applauded Flair's effort. Then, instead of just letting Flair leave the ring with his music playing, HHH has to FUCKING PEDIGREE the Hurricane. Now, hit HHH's music. Un-fucking real. I hate this man so much it makes me sick. And the worse part is, I hate Nash even more so I will actually be pulling for HHH to win Sunday. But, to make matters even worse, I hate Goldberg even more than HHH (but not as much as Nash). And, with Goldberg HHH's most likely next opponent, I will be pulling for HHH to win again.

Face it folks, if you are a HHH fan, you are in all your glory because barring injury, he will either have the title or be fighting for the title for the next year or more. However, if you like variety, good wrestling and/or hate HHH, you're fucked big time.

UNLESS you save some cash and buy some puroresu or indies (like I did) so you can get away from this guy (or in my case predictable acting/booking), but I guess you forgot about that. You have to realize that if you really want variety in wrestling these days, most likely you have to BUY it, like I did. And look at me! I'm happy!

For the ones worried about the LOD, I wouldn't. That had all the markings of a one and done shot. I mean, after getting buried by the tag-team champs, where would you go from there? I think they just got used, and we won't be seeing them anymore.

Though I would find it somewhat humorous if they put them on TV for Smackdown, too, so that Team Angle can bury them as well.

Oh, I almost forgot, the best part of last night's Raw: Victoria, Trish and Steven Richards! That's it! God, I love that vignette in the back with Victoria and Steven laughing, that was as entertaining as Raw got for me. If I could just spend 2 hours listening to them, I would with a smile on my face. I love them together! Victoria continues to look awesome as always, and Steven really is looking swank himself. The hardcore match was fun stuff (not even absence of blood could ruin it for me, it's VICTORIA!) If you need more reasons to love Raw (other than Y2J and Christian or Austin), look no further than Victoria and Steven. Whew, it must've been a slow night if I'd rather hear two people talk (laugh) than watch Raw...

I would like to thank the folks that had the cutout letters of "BIG LAZY" visible during Nash's intro. It allowed me to think of the two hours as closer to bearable than a complete waste of two hours. They were the same folks with the ZZZZZ letters. May Zoroaster bless them.

As always, I'm odd, but I thought that was just about a perfect show last night. Decent enough wrestling, a few suprises, funny stuff that was actually funny, unintentional stuff that was fuckin' hilarious and a main event that allowed me to change the channel to "The Daily Show" with no remorse whatsoever.

I've made my feelings on Steve Austin pretty clear, and if were up to me, he'd never have shown up on WWE television again. That said, the last two weeks are the most entertaining he's been since the Invasion angle. He's mixing a bit of the "new Stone Cold" in, and god bless him for it. That smiling picture after Bischoff's in the opening is priceless.

Christian, incidently, rules, and it's so great to finally see him getting a push. (Sure, the "delusions of granduer" gimmicks been used quite frequently recently - but look how well it got Matt Hardy over, and that was a guy we used to have in the same boat as Christian, minus the charisma.)

It was great to see Goldberg give a bit of offense to him, as well. Personally, if he can sell every once in a while, and not treat every match as a squash, I'll give Goldberg a chance. As of right now, I still could care less about him, but I'll try to keep an open mind.

Speaking of Goldberg, I may have imagined this (and no one seems to have mentioned it so far, so I probably did), but, during his big entrance, did his fuckin' DOORKNOB fall off?! If he couldn't have opened the door, that would've been some of the best damn television of all time.

Great use of the LOD last night. They came out, got the nostalgia pop, hitting exactly one offensive manuever (Animal powerbombed Harvey Dee, but that was just to set up the coolest, and most obvious, reversal to the Doomsday Device I've ever seen.), and the rest of the time they just took a beating. (The White Boys who fought Rodney Mack got more offense in.) Then, they jobbed and disappeared and, hopefully, are never heard from again.

You know what - they can bring in as many old-timers as they want, provided they always use them like that. What do you suppose King Kong Bundy's up to?

I'd give Line of the Night to the completely incomprehensible shouting that Flair did after Hurricane insulted HHH in the back.

CHRISTIAN,n.1. One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor.2. One who follows the teachings of Christ in so far as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin. 3. That guy what used to team with Edge.

Originally posted by OlFuzzyBastardSpeaking of Goldberg, I may have imagined this (and no one seems to have mentioned it so far, so I probably did), but, during his big entrance, did his fuckin' DOORKNOB fall off?! If he couldn't have opened the door, that would've been some of the best damn television of all time.

Yep, it did. Welcome to Philadelphia! All things considered, Goldberg's lucky that he didn't have to step over rats during his dressing-room-to-entrance-ramp segue, let alone that the door opened...

"You may be wondering why I have been making so many references lately to Fox News. The reason is that it is now my cable news network of choice -- because if Iím going to watch the news and be lied to, I want it to be ridiculously obvious that I am being lied to." -- Center for an Informed America, Newsletter #34

I gotta say, I marked out big time for the LOD's appearance. I was kinda surprised they lost. I mean, for a team that's put up a fuss over doing jobs in the past, why would they come in for one match just to lose, and then leave? They didn't do as bad as I thought they would, either.

- At least they're making the I-C battle royal seem like a big deal, so I'm happy about that, but really, how many people are in it? Please tell me they're going led SD! stars into it during tonight's taping, or else it will end up looking like the Raw battle royal they did here in Toronto a couple of months ago...

- Legion of Doom weren't THAT BAD. Weren't nearly as out of shape as I thought they'd be. I agree with what was said earlier, if this is a one or two shot deal, fine by me. If they're sticking around... uh.... let's hope not.

- If they put Classy Freddie Blassie on every week and had him mutter things under breath, ratings would SOAR, baby!

- I missed La Resistance's debut last week.... actually, I didn't much at all. These guys have a decent gimmick, but they suck. I don't mind Scott Steiner at all in a short match or tag match role, though. He hits all his main spots and is outta there, fine by me. The guy is entertaining enough when he does that kind of thing.

- Austin has picked up where he left off in the Alliance days, as far as his value as a comedy figure goes. I like his interaction with pretty much everyone on the roster, especially Christian.

- Sorry, why again is Goldberg not on the PPV? Was this one of his contract loopholes, the same one that lets him show videotape on his website of the Rock match? Not putting him in a match, even if it was against Christian again, was a bad move, I think.

- Laugh if you want, but they're starting to make Hurricane a little bit higher up on the totem pole each week with all these matches against big names. Only The Rock and Morley matches made Hurricane look GOOD, but still, exposure and all that....

- Chew on this: Chris Jericho could get a decent match out of Scott Steiner, but not Kevin Nash? That shows you how willing Nash is to improve these days...

"Vince, as a member of the immediate family....I know you can only have one question on you mind, Dad. And that is...not DID we, but HOW MANY TIMES did we consumate the marriage?"- HHH, 1999

Originally posted by Vega14kI'm sorry, could you explain this comment, please? I mean, sure, Booker's not a former IC champ, but, really, who cares? The man was in the world title match at WM, has plenty of fan support and is a very competent and experienced wrestler. How does putting a 'star' in the match undermine the credibility of the IC battle royal? Do you think Booker T will detract from the awesome star power that is Test, Christian, Goldust and a bevy of other midcarders-extraordinairre? Do you think the fans will sit there thinking "gee, Booker's not a former IC champion therefore this SUCKS."

Do you think they the casual fans will even know?

There's plenty of bad going on in WWE right now, let's not make bad stuff up. :)

I should have said that the battle royal had very little credibility to begin with. They bring back the IC Title and try to pass it off as if it means something but it's being decided in a battle royal? That's almost as bad as being handed the title. It just makes it look so worthless right off the bat. It reeks of; "We have nothing to do with any of these guys so here's a title and battle royal."

So they tried to pass off the battle royal as being so exclusive that only former IC Champions on the RAW roster could enter. Then a week later, Austin breaks the first stipulation he made by putting Booker in it. It just showed to me that they have no intentions of making the IC Title anything special.

Thanks for the live report brother Torch(cause we have the same last username, get it, ha). Seemed like you had fun. Don't know how to feel that you thought of ME while staring at Trish and Lillian standing together LoL. As for Lil's reaction I'm thinking the protective Lillian didn't approve of the idea of Trish in another hardcore match especially one concerning straps, hopefully they make up soon Speaking of Lillian interrupting her anthem is pretty unnecessary, she's also wearing pants which is an unusual occurrence. BTW The Trish video is "Soak up the Sun" by Sheryl Crow... Philly crowd was good, would have been better if they chanted "Diesel sucks" but reacting to him with total silence is good enough. I know it's not you because you said you were sitting in a box but big time props to the guys & gals who brought out the white cut out letters of BIG LAZY & alternative BIG ZZZZ. That was awesome

I thought this show was very entertaining, I liked a lot of it. Did it sell me on the PPV? Not at all! But for 2 hours of entertainment it was extremely enjoyable.

-IC Title interviews- This interview is great, it's really good seeing a guy like Christian able to interact with Austin. Christian was great in this and for the first time ever really seemed like his own unique person. RVD comes out and just has to point to himself and gets a huge reaction (but he ain't main event material, main event material is coming up at the end of the show). Austin interviews are fun and I don't mind them starting the show getting the crowd riled up. DeadCowWalking sets up... -RVD/Kane vs. LOD - LOD physically looked pretty good but man did their selling suck. And I absolutely noticed a half second after the 3 count Hawk got up and walked out of the ring. Hell I think RVD was still on his knees selling and getting up slowly when Hawk was up and out Brutal

-Rodney Mack vs. 2 White jobbers- Boy I hope the caucasian that finally beats Mack is worth the pay off because the set up is pretty horrible.

-My segment with Blassie - Close up of Lillian (with no ScreamingHeadGuy fashion report on. For shame) you know this must be important. I enjoy Austin and Bicshoffs exchange. I did find it ironic that the two guys that pushed a old woman in a wheelchair off a ramp saved an old man in a wheel chair LoL... Dudleyz knocked 3 minute warning around the arena.

-Goldberg vs. Christian- I enjoyed this match a lot more then I thought I was going to. Maybe my expectation were so low on Goldberg's selling that any offense Christian got was bonus. I liked the match and the vicious first chair shot on Goldberg was solid. And also a decently done match

-Flair vs. Hurricane- I don't know why but I had so much fun watching this match. Hilarious spot of Flair flop and then Hurricane just flops down on him for the 2 count. It really seemed like they were having so much fun in there especially Hurricane. I just had a smile on my face (except for the Flair moon) through that match. Flair running around like a crazy old kook was again hilarious

-Steiner/Test/Goldust v. Nowinski/La Resistance- This match again was much more entertaining then I thought it would be. Not the greatest tech match of course but it seemed to have a real good build through out the match. I was more surprised I like this match then even the cage match. It seemed like a strong effort with all involved.

-Trish vs. Victoria- Being in Philly and the missed kick early on. I'm sure thoughts of Gayda started running through her head running through her head. But did a realistic cover-up redo and then they started rolling. That MATRIX move was amazing! (You know it's cool when Lawler is freaking out about a women wrestling move!) What was even cooler is that in one motion Trish stood back up and nailed Victoria with a kick. I also liked that Stratusphere battle they had in the corner, Victoria grabbed the leg blocking the Stratusphere. Trish punches out of the blocked move and hits then hits IT. Very cool stuff!... Well this is the last match of the night the had 2 athletes involved

-Nash vs. Jericho- Because we have this next. Athlete Jericho vs. 300 pound bag of suck. It's really something to see a guy in his first free TV wrestling match in about a year get such a non-reaction. He's got a damn 4th of July fire works display when he gets in the ring and the crowd response with "Ah well". But he's main event buh gawd. Certainly more then the guy who just points to himself and the crowd goes crazy. Jericho tried, he bumped like a freak. Nash is just atrocious, in the beginning offense of Nash he was slow and his punches look there's no effort there... It's official Jericho carried Steiner decently but couldn't do anything to save Nash. It seemed to me the some pockets of the crowd was trying to boo him and certainly not reacting to any of his offense at all.

Nash should thank God for GodBoy Shawn Michaels to come out and save his talentless friend from even more embarrassment. I was watching Raw with someone and she literally fell ASLEEP (I'm not kidding) a couple of minutes into this main event and woke up during the HBK run in/pops. Awful... LETS PLAY THIS GAME : STACY KIEBLER is to TEST = ____ is to Nash. If you answered (Shawn Michaels) you are correct sir! Remember what I said a month or so ago when Nash came back about him being the biggest overrated leach in wrestlings current history. Leeching of HBK early on in the WWE. Leeching off Hogan in the NWO. And he's leeching off now and will do so until he finally gets his untalented ass out of the industry

-other stuff- Goldberg must be watching a bunch of Clint Eastwood movies, his tone and his speech to Austin sounded like a BAD Clint impression... I also think just throwing Booker in there out of the blue was kind of lame, but I guess theyhad no choice because he got sick this weekend... Just an observation that Lawler and JR sounded really on tonight and did a good job

Sign of the night: It has to be the white cut out letters of BIG LAZY and BIG ZZZZ. Great job Philly.

Line of the nigh: There was a lot the opening promo was good, JR and Lawler both seemed really on tonight but I have to go with Lawler hyping Nash/HHH "This is going to be BRUTAL, this is going to be bloody, THIS IS GOING TO BE BAD!" Truer words never been spoken.

I was entertained by this show alot, Nash's horrificness is good for a laugh and the rest of the second hour I enjoyed the wrestling on it, except for the main event all 2nd hour matches were entertaining and better then I thought was going to be (ie 6men). I can't say it enough I really enjoyed the second hour... The first hour was really low in wrestling but the opening promo was so good that it got me through. The Blassie thing was okay. I don't know what was the bigger joke Hawk standing and getting out of the ring a half second after the 3count or Nash's performance and reaction from the crowd.

cause there's limits to our liberties.'Least I hope and pray that there are,cause those liberal freaks go too far.

Well, we found out who Jim Ross' new love interest will be with Austin gone. Warm Beer being a former football player and hailing from Oklahoma must really turn Good Ol' J.R. on.

Lawler continually having to correct himself for using the term Road Warriors was hysterical. By the way, when is Animal's due date on the child he is carrying? I guess any doubt that Johnny Ace has taken power has gone by the wayside. I'm putting the clock at 4 weeks until Rick Steiner debuts for the Road Warrior/Steiner Bros. feud.

Its now 5 months into the 'Will RVD and Kane Split Up This Week' tease, and it gets duller every week.

I'll give Kevin Nash credit. He didn't injure himself.

Why is 3MW anywhere near my TV set?

The last time I remember a belt being determined in a normal Battle Royale (which excludes Rumble and World War III) was January of 1989 by the AWA. Lets see, handing someone a belt like the AWA, and now a Battle Royale for a belt like the AWA. Its very fortunate for Vince to have such a successful company to model his on.

Originally posted by OlFuzzyBastardSpeaking of Goldberg, I may have imagined this (and no one seems to have mentioned it so far, so I probably did), but, during his big entrance, did his fuckin' DOORKNOB fall off?! If he couldn't have opened the door, that would've been some of the best damn television of all time.

When I saw that, my first thought was that Christian had saboutaged the door so Goldberg couldn't get out for their match. When he came through the door anyway, I expected someone to mention that even that couldn't stop him from what he was determined to do. No one did, so it became apparent that it was an accident (a strange one, at that).

I am getting sooo tired of Raw. It's like they got all the old timers who can't wrestle (nash, HHH, Steiner,). I'm tired of it there alot of great wrestles like Hurricane and Booker that can put on a great show and there just sitting there. I see it also hurting some of the wrestlers like Jericho, he can be really good depends on who he's wrestling. I juts tired of it Smackdown better hope it stay thast way.

I should have said that the battle royal had very little credibility to begin with. They bring back the IC Title and try to pass it off as if it means something but it's being decided in a battle royal? That's almost as bad as being handed the title. It just makes it look so worthless right off the bat. It reeks of; "We have nothing to do with any of these guys so here's a title and battle royal."

So they tried to pass off the battle royal as being so exclusive that only former IC Champions on the RAW roster could enter. Then a week later, Austin breaks the first stipulation he made by putting Booker in it. It just showed to me that they have no intentions of making the IC Title anything special.

OK, well I agree with what you said about how it reeks of "having nothing better to do with these guys."

I still disagree, however, about how adding Booker T adds to the feeling that they won't make the IC belt anything special. Besides, I don't remember Austin ever saying on TV that it was *exclusively* for former IC holders. He simply said (paraphrasing) "If you are on the RAW roster and you are a former IC champ, you can enter." All that means is that former IC champs are automatically allowed in. Perhaps if others want in they must pitch for it. (Just like Rodney Mack did - see?)

Well, having said all that, I will now join you in saying that they won't make the IC belt anything special - but my point is that adding Booker T had nothing to do with that feeling.

The women's division definitely needs to be filled out, but I don't think Average Viewer Joe would understand all of the business aspects of the TE2 selection process that would lead the WWE to pick the two women and ignore Jake.