6 Nations Rugby - (aka. Ball carrier not releasing -- WTF?)

I really wonder if those across the pond are confused with American football rules as I am with rugby rules.

They had the England v. Wales match on BBC America earlier and was entranced watching but really confused whenever there was a penalty called. I kinda wanted to look up the rules, but the play kept going on and didn't want to take the time out to do a search. Some replays might have been helpful in understanding some of the calls, but with the continuous nature of play, you can't really get that many replays in or they will miss action going.

Sometime during the second half, I finally did a search and it actually cleared up a few things. Problem is, that because of the camera angles and number of people around a ruck/scrum, you cant really see what is exactly going on and have to rely on the referee to be making the right call.

I now know that you cannot tackle a guy and try to strip the ball at the same time....that you have to release the guy from the tackle and then go in and try and get the ball. Interesting.

Just one question. If you are carrying the ball and are isolated and tackled. The carrier must release the ball immediately right? And if he is isolated, then the opposing team can just come in and pick up the ball? right? I'm guessing that is why you don't run into isolation so when you are tackled, your team can form the ruck behind you and protect the ball when it is released.

Kinda a bummer now, I looked up some of the rules too late in the match and now I want to see more to see if I can follow things a bit better.

Anyways, it was a good match. I *think* England scored at the end....I thought I saw him get the nose of the ball down past the try line, but there was no clear angle of it in the replays so they didnt award it to him. (Again I don't know the specific rules for downing a try though).

I ran into that issue with a pinball machine once. Turned out the screws holding the track in place had worked their way out a bit. Must enough that tthey'd get stuck and couldn't re-enter the field of play.

It does take a bit of getting used to. If you watch long enough, you can at least get used to how play flows and recognize when something is likely to be called. I've got an iPhone app for the IRB Laws which is handy if you're actually at a game.

I went to the Sevens tournament in Las Vegas a couple of weeks ago and had a great time. It is almost like a mini-Olympics with all the different nationalities there. My son is a big England fan and got his picture taken with some of the players at the wrap party. This is the third year I've gone and we're already making plans for next year.

Correction, England did not score because the ball was not conclusively down and in control by the player

The rules are not too difficult, I feel, although it does help to look them up before you ever watch it, also, as a game I do believe Rugby is one of the most fun and enjoyable sports to watch and Ill be in the Millenium Stadium in Cardiff to watch the final match of the Six Nations with my Welsh wife

Keep watching and I think you'll find it very entertaining and engrossing, its kinda like American Football but for real men (and women)

Also, to your question, yes, when you are tackled and down you HAVE to release the ball, failure to do so is a penalty.

As a rugby referee, I can tell you the current interpretation of the law.

First, you can strip the ball before the ball carrier goes to ground. Once the ball carrier hits the ground (or a player on the ground), a tackle has occurred and the following things must happen:1. First, the tackler must release the ball carrier and roll away2. The ball carrier must release the ball

The tackler can attempt to steal the ball from the ball carrier once gets back to his feet, and from any direction before a ruck* is formed. Typically, the best players at doing that are the openside flankers, who wear #7. Wales has a fantastic #7 in Warburton. But if you're off your feet, you are not allowed to play the ball.

The tackler must also completely release the ball carrier before attempting to play the ball. A tackler assist (a defender who is in on the tackle, but does not go to ground with the ball carrier, can also play the ball once he has released the ball carrier, but can only do so after coming through the gate**

* A ruck is formed after a tackle when two players who are on their feet bind to one another. Once a ruck has been formed, players (with the exception of the scrumhalf digging the ball out) are not allowed to use their hands to try to retrieve the ball. Hands in the ruck is a penalty.

** The gate is formed by the two feet of the rear-most player in a ruck, or the width of a ball carrier or tackler on the ground after a tackle. Players arriving at the tackle and ruck can only join the ruck through the gate. Failure to do so is a penalty.

Ok, since this is a rugby thread in a forum with international reach, I have to ask a question. Why don't ruby players tackle cleanly? As someone who played American Football, it drives me batshit insane to watch ruby players "tackle." How the fuck do they teach it in Rugby? Are there actual rules governing it? know why the cutback works so damn well in Rugby? Because most defenders suck ass at tackling. Hey World, the shitty tackling, what the fuck?

Ok, since this is a rugby thread in a forum with international reach, I have to ask a question. Why don't ruby players tackle cleanly? As someone who played American Football, it drives me batshit insane to watch ruby players "tackle." How the fuck do they teach it in Rugby? Are there actual rules governing it? know why the cutback works so damn well in Rugby? Because most defenders suck ass at tackling. Hey World, the shitty tackling, what the fuck?

After reading through some of the rules, "ball carrier not releasing" is actually what happened. My memory is kinda hazy about the match, but I think that Wales kicked the ball and England caught it on the fly. The guy who caught it hesitated for a second deciding whether to kick it back or not, and instead ran forward. He had no support and was tackled and they called a penalty. I thought it was going to be on Wales, but they called it on England. But it makes sense now that he probably held onto the ball because there was no players there to form a ruck.

I was also a bit confused about the line-outs, but just read up on it and think I have a better grasp on it. I didn't realize that if you were beyond the 22 (of if it came off a penalty), you would get the throw in where the ball went into touch.

I don't quite follow some of the tactics involved in the play on the field though. There were a couple of times where one side seemed to be moving the ball on the ground pretty well, and then they would just kick the ball downfield which seemed to be a waste to me. Do they think they can get a steal of a line-out or think they could get a turnover from their defense better than keeping the ball themselves?

Its kinda a bummer that we can't get more quality rugby on US TV. I only seem to stumble on it when the 6 Nations come around each year....but I usually don't pay that much attention because it turned out to be a lopsided match. The England/Wales match was different though and kept me interested throughout. Wish I could see the Scotland/France match today becasue i am interested in seeing some more quality stuff. Might have to wait until next Sat if BBCAmerica shows that one rescheduled match.

Ok, since this is a rugby thread in a forum with international reach, I have to ask a question. Why don't ruby players tackle cleanly? As someone who played American Football, it drives me batshit insane to watch ruby players "tackle." How the fuck do they teach it in Rugby? Are there actual rules governing it? know why the cutback works so damn well in Rugby? Because most defenders suck ass at tackling. Hey World, the shitty tackling, what the fuck?

I'm not sure what you mean, because rugby players have much better technique than football players, in my opinion (and I played football as well). That said, some of what you are seeing may be due to the different laws of the two codes. In football tackling, anything goes aside from grabbing the facemask and horseccollar tackles. Rugby is more restrictive. You have to make an attempt to wrap the player with your arms, and you are not allowed to tackle above the shoulders. No spearing, and no picking up players and driving them into the ground (an automatic red card and possible multi game suspension).

Also, sometimes you don't want to tackle folks. Ireland is the master of the choke tackle, where two players come in and wrap a player up around the chest and stop his momentum without bringing him to ground. The idea is to force a maul (when a player from each team as well as the ball carrier are bound together in open play) and then win a turnover from an unsuccessful maul by the team with the ball.

Obviously there are bad defenses and bad tacklers in both football and rugby, but remember that the laws of the games are different, the equipment is different, and the outcome of a tackle can be much different (in football, the next down; in rugby, a possible turnover), so tackling can look different...

... and sometimes you'll see a forward line a back up and clean his freaking clock in a way that would make Ray Lewis chortle with joy.

Ok, since this is a rugby thread in a forum with international reach, I have to ask a question. Why don't ruby players tackle cleanly? As someone who played American Football, it drives me batshit insane to watch ruby players "tackle." How the fuck do they teach it in Rugby? Are there actual rules governing it? know why the cutback works so damn well in Rugby? Because most defenders suck ass at tackling. Hey World, the shitty tackling, what the fuck?

In American football you are trying to stop the ball carier before he can reach the first down marker. In Rugby Union Football it doesn't matter where the ball carier goes down (within a few yards) so much as the relative positions of the ball, the bodies on the ground, and where your team mates are coming from to collect that ball. Remember the ball must be released (or fumbled) after the tackle - you want that to happen in such a way that your team has a better chance of getting it.

There is also the issue of no pads/helmet - by rule you must make a wrapping tackle; you want to keep your face out of it and put your shoulder into one of the fleshier parts of the body.

After reading through some of the rules, "ball carrier not releasing" is actually what happened. My memory is kinda hazy about the match, but I think that Wales kicked the ball and England caught it on the fly. The guy who caught it hesitated for a second deciding whether to kick it back or not, and instead ran forward. He had no support and was tackled and they called a penalty. I thought it was going to be on Wales, but they called it on England. But it makes sense now that he probably held onto the ball because there was no players there to form a ruck.

I was also a bit confused about the line-outs, but just read up on it and think I have a better grasp on it. I didn't realize that if you were beyond the 22 (of if it came off a penalty), you would get the throw in where the ball went into touch.

I don't quite follow some of the tactics involved in the play on the field though. There were a couple of times where one side seemed to be moving the ball on the ground pretty well, and then they would just kick the ball downfield which seemed to be a waste to me. Do they think they can get a steal of a line-out or think they could get a turnover from their defense better than keeping the ball themselves?

Its kinda a bummer that we can't get more quality rugby on US TV. I only seem to stumble on it when the 6 Nations come around each year....but I usually don't pay that much attention because it turned out to be a lopsided match. The England/Wales match was different though and kept me interested throughout. Wish I could see the Scotland/France match today becasue i am interested in seeing some more quality stuff. Might have to wait until next Sat if BBCAmerica shows that one rescheduled match.

If you have DirecTV, there's free rugby on channel 490 every Fri and Sat (Super Rugby).

As far as tactics, sometimes a team will move through the phases (a phase is a carry, tackle, and recycle) and not gain much ground. Or occasionally the fly-half will note that the backs on the defense are cheating up, so then they'll kick for territory. Many times, they're trying to get the ball to go into touch deep in the opponent's territory so they can try and steal a line out. Sometimes they'll do a kick and chase, with the wings hoping to regather the ball before the defense can get there. But given that there is a contest for possession at every tackle (or at least the opportunity for one), possession isn't as dear as it is in football most of the time. So a team will kick away possession and hope to steal the ball one way or another in the opposition's half of the field. Some teams (South Africa, Scotland, Italy) don't like to keep possession in their own half of the field and will generally kick the ball away. Others, like Wales and New Zealand, will attack from deep in their own half.

LOL @ usku. I'll make a note of looking for sharpened spikes the next time I do a boot check.

From the rules descriptions, looks like the rules aren't that different other than American Football is allowed to tackle at shoulder level. So far, everything else described as illegal is illegal in America Football, this isn't the 1970s.

What I don't see is drive from rugby tackles. In Football, you drive your shoulder into the runner's gut/ribs and drive him (the hit) while your arms wrap a leg or two to put him on the ground. Looks like most Ruggers are first trying to grapple the guy Greco-Roman style then pull him down. That is why it looks so off to me, and why so many are flat missed. From my perspective, Rugby defenders stop moving their feet when they try to tackle, which is a recipe for getting run over. Just trying to find out what is going on in the game that would make them do that.

What I don't see is drive from rugby tackles. In Football, you drive your shoulder into the runner's gut/ribs and drive him (the hit) while your arms wrap a leg or two to put him on the ground. Looks like most Ruggers are first trying to grapple the guy Greco-Roman style then pull him down. That is why it looks so off to me, and why so many are flat missed. From my perspective, Rugby defenders stop moving their feet when they try to tackle, which is a recipe for getting run over. Just trying to find out what is going on in the game that would make them do that.

What American Football are you watching? Tackling quality these days is so horrid. Most players are looking for hits, not tackles, which is why guys like Adrian Peterson get so many yards after the "tackle", and guys can get hit on the 4 yard line and still score because it was just a nudge instead of a wrap-up.

The reason the hits come into play more in American Football is because of the fumble. If you knock the ball carrier into next week and the ball pops out, you can take it back for a score, gain possession, or at least create a negative play for the other team. Turnovers win.

We could debate it all day, but I'm not claiming it's great. It's better than what limited Rugby I watch, which is clarification I'm looking for, not an argument with some old geezer about how his High Schooling days were the glory days of tackling. "We wrapped them up in a bow without hitting them for the glory, NOW GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!"

I watched a few minutes of my first rugby match a few weeks ago. The one thing I really liked was the extra point try after a score occured 20 or 22 yards back from the point that they crossed the goal line. Adds a totally new strategy to the game, I saw a guy attempt from right sideline.

I would love to see that implemented in American Football, granted it would really kill the sideline endzone catches and allow a team to overload one side of the line on a block attempt if the team was up against a sideline... But it would add a little excitement to the least exciting play in football.

From the rules descriptions, looks like the rules aren't that different other than American Football is allowed to tackle at shoulder level. So far, everything else described as illegal is illegal in America Football, this isn't the 1970s.

What I don't see is drive from rugby tackles. In Football, you drive your shoulder into the runner's gut/ribs and drive him (the hit) while your arms wrap a leg or two to put him on the ground. Looks like most Ruggers are first trying to grapple the guy Greco-Roman style then pull him down. That is why it looks so off to me, and why so many are flat missed. From my perspective, Rugby defenders stop moving their feet when they try to tackle, which is a recipe for getting run over. Just trying to find out what is going on in the game that would make them do that.

If you drive someone off their feet and into the ground, you could get a red card and suspension. That's part of the reason. The other bit is that you generally want support there. In an ideal situation you make the tackle and have a teammate there to steal the ball the second the ball carrier hits the ground. Also, you don't want the ball carrier to be able to offload the ball to a teammate in the tackle.

That's a weird interpretation of picking up and slamming to the turf. I'll just have to get used to that.

v.tr.1. To grab hold of and wrestle with (an opponent).2. Sportsa. To stop (an opponent carrying the ball), especially by forcing the opponent to the ground.b. To obstruct (a player with the ball) in order to cause loss of possession of the ball.

Nowhere in the definition does it say you have to slam one to the ground, or that they even have to hit the ground. Specific sports terminology != definition.

Depends which version of rugby! League is way more fun than Union (both to watch and play)!

League is repetitive, and is really like American football without pads or forward passes. There is the occasional bit of brilliant passing or kicking, but for me, rugby union is a much more interesting sport to watch.

(And I say this having watched a DVD of the 2008 Rugby League World Cup Final last night at my neighbor's house.)