96 comments:

"Emasculate" is the wrong word, even if meant figuratively. I trust the writer, on reflection, is or will be embarrassed.

Also, this idea of "birth rape," that fingers and surgical implements may be thrust into the woman's birth canal "without consent" is nonsensical. Doesn't the mother's decision to bear her child in a surgical theater scream "consent" to whatever procedures may take place therein?

I was on a treadmill yesterday and they had me work the ol' ticker up to 150 for five minutes before shoving me onto my side and ordering me to blow out and hold it. When I tried, it felt like torture and when I went to take a breath to alleviate the sense of, you know, dying, hands squeezed me and people shouted at me to hold it and not to breath.

Agree that the word "emasculate" could not be more inappropriate under the circumstances. Words have meaning. Therefore I decline to take a position either for or against figurative language.Sometimes it's okay and sometimes it's not.

Who's the worst writer, Bonnie Rochman for using emasculate in the context of a woman in labor, or Amity Reed for inventing an imaginary societal angst to further distract us from real problems? One is merely maladroit in her use of English (maybe she should have changed her major like Roger Ailes advised), the other uses language to an unworthy end. I'm perplexed.

I'm sure the sensation these women are trying to explain is discomfort with having someone touch their body in a sensitive place without fore-warning.

Lacking the vocabulary to explain it appropriately, or perhaps having learned that inflammatory language that places them in the position of a victim is actually effective in getting what they want, they jump right to "rape" instead of "discomfort".

In my experience, narcissism is endemic for women and liberal men. Insisting that rape is "anything a woman doesn't explicitly agree to prior to every single iteration" is just further evidence.

Alas, another problem with Obamacare, or if you like Obamacare, a problem that will be fixed by it. Under Obamacare, hospital compensation will based on customer satisfaction survey. So here we have a mother with a newborn child, both go home health. But post partum mom isn't happy for being "violated". She gives a bad survey, and despite the hospital giving her the best healthcare to keep mommy and baby healthy; they don't get paid.

The only thing being emasculated (in the figurative sense) is the concept of rape. If rape occurs when Colombian forceps are used to avoid a c-section, then what's so bad about rape? If that's the term Amity Reed and other feminists choose as applicable, then rape sounds both beneficial and reasonable to me.

It appears that the "what is feminism" gauntlet has once again been thrown at your feet, Professor Althouse.

Here is Amity Reed herself with a backlash against the backlash on the use of the term "birth rape". It tells you all you need to know about this woman. The money quote, getting to the entire crux of her position, is as follows;

n cases where the intent was not to punish or control the birthing woman in some way (which can and does happen) and the forced vaginal penetration was done out of what the perpetrator believed to be medical necessity or professional obligation, this still leaves us with the disturbing idea that a woman's bodily autonomy ceases to exist once she is carrying another life within her.

And there you have it. It comes back to abortion even when the topic is giving birth. Derangement, truly.

You guys ever given birth in a hospital? I wouldn't use the phrase "birth rape," but there are definitely people who show no respect to the dignity of the mother. Most do. Some, however, seem to think they're working on a farm with animals rather than in a hospital with people.

If a woman brings a rape accusation against an OB because she feels violated at the delivery, she is going to find it very difficult to find another OB.

The malpractice insurance rate, low compensation and time lost addressing these charges, even if no lawsuit is filed, makes patients like this extremely unattractive to physicians. I suspect many physicians would fire the patient even if they just mentions that they felt raped!

Are the makers of tampons rapists? Are the makers of sanitary napkins mashers?

If I was a doctor and some woman started pulling this crap with me, I'd give her a hardy and deeply felt "GTFO." I'm here to help you, you don't want my help, go squat in a turnip field for all I care.

Freeman, were all of your births routine? In the sense that there were no emergency procedures done during?

Do you think you would have been rationally able to give consent in the middle of a child birth that suddenly turned emergency?

Do you think a doctor wants to rely on a woman being rational during something like that, only to change her mind later and say she wasn't thinking clearly, or do you think the doctor would rather err on the side of making sure the mother and child survive the entire procedure?

No, but I watched and helped two. I had to leave the building during the second one to go microwave a heating pad because the nurses refused to let me use theirs. It was a hostile environment. My wife gave birth and left a couple hours later she hated it so much. I could name institutions but I won't.

Freeman is right. Lots of decisions to be made in the delivery room, or birthing room, as they are called now. By the time you get to the point of labor and deliver, you should know your doc well enough to know that he/she will treat you the right way. (And if you know differently, why are you still with this OB?) If another doc handles your delivery and touches you in an unexpected and unacceptable way, a hearty kick (oops! that was a HARD contraction!) should settle things down.

Scott, I'm not talking about those things done in an emergency. I'm talking about, for example, routine checking of the cervix and labor progresses. Most nurses and doctors do with gently and with respect. Some don't, and some are outright aggressive about it. I've only seen and heard about women acting that way, and I assume that this is because men are trained to be exquisitely sensitive to the woman's feelings and risks involved in treating her badly.

"Under Obamacare, hospital compensation will based on customer satisfaction survey. So here we have a mother with a newborn child, both go home health. But post partum mom isn't happy for being "violated". She gives a bad survey, and despite the hospital giving her the best healthcare to keep mommy and baby healthy; they don't get paid."

Can you point to the part of the Affordable Care Act that stipulates this?

Given that, under Obamneycare, patients must still buy and use private insurance, I don't see how this can be true.

Freeman Hunt wrote:Some, however, seem to think they're working on a farm with animals rather than in a hospital with people.

Not taking a gratuitous swipe at large animal veterinarian, I hope.

Seriously, don't waste your considerable talents on this tripe. Amity Reed is either:1) A garden variety paranoid with a soapbox2) Trying to gin up a controversy in order to sell an otherwise unreadable book (These are not mutually exclusive, btw)

So you think a few OB/GYNs have a poor bedside manner. Perhaps that the case, I don't know. Perhaps these "offenders" started out as Marcus Wellby and ended up as Greg House because they got to be the subject of a tort for all their concern thanks to an aggressive personal injury type like John Edwards. Talk about rape!

Frankly, if the average woman gets treated like a farm animal by her attending physician... heck, she should be so fortunate.

It occurs to me that even if everything else was humming along nicely; blacks and whites loving each other, unemployment at less than 1 percent, our exports greater than our imports, personal freedoms never less infringed upon, colonies on each planet plus the belt, dogs and cats married happily...

...this "birth rape" bullshit is the kind of crap the progressives would still come up to bitch about.

Freeman, thanks for the first-hand knowledge. There are definitely people at the hospital who show no respect for the dignity of ANY patient. There are a lot of people at the hospital and statistically some of them are going to be assholes. This must be especially irritating when you are there on the momentous occasion of the birth of a child. Going out behind the barn is not a reasonable option although it is a super snappy comeback.

This is an October 2010 article with comments closed and no comments showing. Were the comments so stupid that Time deleted them? I'm betting: yes.

It's Time. Nothing intelligent has been uttered on those pages in many, many years. Whomever bought them got ripped off wholesale.

Well, just as they made racism a joke phrase by over-use, I guess the PC crowd is hoping to destigmatize rape by doing the same.

Solid gameplan, fellas and ladies.

Ever try to ask questions of a woman shoving a kid out of your vagina? Well thought-out responses are going to be in short supply. Inquiries as to the species of animal your mother is, however, flow freely.

The writer has to be highly educated. Nobody uneducated could come up with pap this damned idiotic.

The other oft-misused word that bugs me is "decimate." As in, the tsunami decimated the small village, leaving only almost no one alive. To which my my high school Latin teacher mutters from the back of my brain, "Heh. They were pretty lucky to only lose one in ten." Mr. Weibel always was kind of a smart ass.

but the concept of birth rape is absurd as is the term emasculate in relation to this.

FB friend linked me to another article about this "phenomenon" this week. I have no doubt some women have insensitive doctors and nurses. But what really got me about the article was that it quite literally equated having someone put a gun to your head and say "Have sex with me or I'll shoot" with the doctor who says "Your baby will die if I don't" do whatever.

But in one case you're dealing with an educated professional giving the opinion and services they're getting paid to give you. (Even if they do a poor job.) The other is just a misogynistic sociopath.

There are ob/gyns, male and female, who have no respect for their patients, and some of them engage in unethical behavior to the point of real rape, assault, and other Bad Things. Probably some pull bad stunts in the delivery room, just like some do in the consulting room. But this woman isn't talking about that.

I sympathize with women who are treated roughly during delivery, or who have doctors doing stuff without explanation. Delivery is scary and painful enough on its own. This should be fixed.

But "doctors and nurses need better delivery manners" is a lot different from "birth rape." I'm sure there are plenty of women in wartime areas throughout the world who have really been raped during labor, and who would find the difference rather obvious.

No, the problem with rape isn't a fall in the value of a woman's virtue. It's the inherent trauma and wronging of sex done against one's will. If rape were permissible all the time by anyone, no human being would feel safe to walk the streets. If a husband is allowed to rape his wife, she isn't safe anywhere.

Sexual assault is bad and includes some trauma, but it's not as bad and traumatizing as rape. I'm sorry that you were raised apart from human society and didn't realize this.

Oh for Pete's sake. I am well aware that there are doctors and nurses out there that can be a little brusque during a delivery, and there is nothing wrong with trying to draw attention to the need for a little common kindness and better bedside manner. But this woman's whining goes way beyond that into the bizarre and narcissistic.

I know what Feminism is (though like many I despair of ever reclaiming that sensible word), and this isn't it. What this is, is the Cult of the Holy Hoohah. Because all vaginas (but especially mine) are special little snowflakes, and I shall take to my fainting couch should anyone so much as look askance at my especial womanly specialness, even if I am in the midst of pushing out a child and they are trying to help me.*

Because, vagina. Mine. In between killer contractions I am terribly concerned that everyone involved is appreciating how much I love my vagina, how much my life and entire identity revolve around my vagina, and pondering over whether my vagina feels well and truly respected. Also, vagina.

Unless you are talking about someone else paying for my birth control, in which case my vagina is no longer a special snowflake, and unique and womanly , but exactly the same in functionality as a liver or a heart, and you are a sexist pig if you suggest that it or its function are unique in any way.

Anyhoo, please excuse me while I go have the vapors over my vagina, and the possibility that other people might possibly be thinking about insulting or touching it in a rapey way while I am giving birth. Mine are the EMPOWERED kind of vapors, unlike those neurotic Victorians with all their neuroses. Because, vagina.

*I am a mother of four. When I was busy pushing out a baby, I was adult enough to know that that entails some medical poking and prodding. Suck it up.

Don't talk to me of emasculation and rape. I've had three colonoscopies. If you ask me, there's something a little sick about a group of strangers shoving a tv camera up another stranger's ass and ogling the inside of his colon. I was mercifully unconscious at the time, but I'm sure the banter and prurient small talk in that colonoscopy room would have shamed satan on his deathbed.....Or not. I think there's very little of prurient interest to the inside of my asshole and colon. What holds even less prurient interest is the vagina of a crowning woman. I can understand why a woman would feel awkward and uncomfortable in such a situation, but to imagine that their discomfort is because of the savagery of the medical staff is a stretch.

I agree with the sentiments expressed in the article, but do not like to see the term "rape" used outside of its legal context because it lessens the seriousness of the offense.

I've been in hospital situations where the attendants and other personnel are so disgustingly rude and disrespectful that the experience did feel like a violation -- and I put a stop to it, called in a patient advocate (every hospital has one and will provide one if you ask for one), put a halt to any further actions by these people and packed up my things and left. Of course, that's a little harder to do if a baby is about to make his or her appearance. Still, you can ask for a patient advocate from the start. Tends to put staff on their best behavior, if nothing else.

Part of the problem is the number of non-medical staff members who are hard to tell apart from medical professionals because they all dress alike and because a lot of these staff members act with an authority they do not have, and this happens a LOT in the L&D wards.

Make sure your husband and other family members will act quickly on your behalf, and definitely make sure there's a patient advocate on hand.

You got a point there N. It's always a good idea to have a family member or a friend with you, or ask for an advocate, especially if you are incapacitated by pain and can't speak up for yourself. Sad but true about those staff that abuse their authority.

I've had 5 kids, one of whom was born at home, a choice we made based on some unhappiness with the hospital experience. Witnessed the births of 4 of my 7 grandkids. Three different doctors with the 5 births, each of those doctors kind and respectful men. Some nursing staff have been marvelous, some callous bordering on rude. But to compare the procedures one deals with while giving birth to rape? Seriously? What fricking next?!

It's not that I don't recognize that the woman had a valid point or two to make. But when you embed that point in such absurd notions as she did, my eyes glaze over and my must-ruthlessly-mock-this gene kicks in.

Every time I think my respect for "Feminism" has hit rock bottom something like this comes along to prove me wrong.

Do these wymon or how the fuck they ever spell it anymore, not read the story about the "Boy Who Cried Wolf" because the lead character has a dick?

Then I saw where the original article was published...UK. The place that fought Hitler to a standstill but can't stop a muj invasion of their country now, because that's just "Raaaaciiist"! The reason the UK is such a shit hole nowadays is because the smart ones got out and came to America.

My wife has had a campaign against "stupid people" she's been waging for decades now. I've consoled her to be more forgiving to others and their feelings, but this article has about made me rethink my position.

Anybody who holds to this sort of attitude is stupid, and should be sterilized so they can't pass on their defective genes, and their tongues cut out so they can't pass on their defective ideas.(this is hyperbole, but still)

Someone needs to teach this girl(and yes I am using it in the diminutive condescending way) that its better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it up, and prove it.

Here's my experience with hospital invasive procedures...after I had a tumor rupture in my intestines, they had to remove parts of my stomach, parts of both intestines, and part of my colon. Afterwards, I lay bedridden for 6 days, where I had to call a nurse every time I shat myself.(often). If some stranger comes into your room, at anytime when you call, to clean you up out of your own shit, and they get a little testy with you... you tell them "Thank you sir. May I please have another"

Otherwise, shut the fuck up, and lay in your own shit.

The respect for nurses I have is utter. They do job I could never do without throwing up or going crazy, and I've done some pretty goddamn nasty stuff in my time.(they are one of the few groups of people I support wholeheartedly)

I was present at the birth of my son. If the surgeon and the nurses hadn't put effort into it, I think it likely that my ex-wife and my son would have died.

I wasn't on the recieving end of the procedure, and as I recall, my ex-wife was pretty much out of it at the time, but to call what happened to her a rape very much demeans victims of actual sexual assaults.

I have seen enough things in my life to make me feel that way. Getting even for imagined slights or because you hate your job or life has been an international pastime. No profession or area of life is immune. If your drink tastes "off," it probably is. I've seen workers in restaurants do things like piss into coffee pots and even jerk off into food. I've seen workers in a commercial bakeries spit into batter and mixing tanks. Remember when cell phone cameras (and digital cameras in general) came out and became commonplace. Remember those stories at a teaching hospital where we learned at least tow things? 1) They were having patients sign blanket releases that authorized hospital personnel to whatever teaching procedures they had a mind to do regardless of the reason that you were there? Women getting gynecological and pelvic exams when they were under general anesthesia for a face lift or a breast biopsy. Then stories started to come out about pictures found on hospital personnel's cell phones. Pictures of women in the recovery rooms outside of the operating theaters with their gowns pulled away, photographed naked and spread legged. Pictures of unconscious women with objects inserted in their vagina or penises held against their mouths. In one case a head nurse with clout had told the surgical residents to alert her when a woman who was undergoing plastic surgery was moved to the recovery area and, since the woman was demanding and had threatened to report her for some problems before, she came down and took a number of shots with her cell including one with an orderlies penis in her mouth and several with her large paperweight shaped like a mouse (rodent) from her desk in and out of the woman's vagina. She had a laugh with other nurses that she could trust showing them the pics when the woman complained in her room in the days after the surgery, with all of them giggling at the pics.

So assume nothing. And do have a witness present that could film anything suspicious with their cell camera. And immediately send it to your email account, so hospital security can't delete it. Oh, and don't expect any help from police. The police that come to hospitals know they may have to depend on those same people some day. Or even get things done off-the-books now when they need it. Your pics, sent to their phones before they delete them from yours, can only help them get more.

Now recall how those investigations went at that one teaching hospital in the news. As you'd expect--over quickly with no effort to look into past cases or do anything that would attract lawyers and class action suits. Did your teaching hospital do anything after hearing that story? Of course they didn't. Well maybe they cautioned their workers about taking pictures.

I apologize to Pogo and other medical professionals that would never do such things, but reality is what it is. So the next time your anus hurts after after being put under for something entirely unrelated, your wildest imaginingsmight not be too far off.

I don't think it necessarily has to do with feminists - according to the National Center for Victims of Crime, sexual assault can include "A doctor, nurse, or other health care professional giving you an unnecessary internal examination or touching your sexual organs in an unprofessional, unwarranted and inappropriate manner." It does not have to involve a penis being inserted into the vagina. And for what it's worth, those repeated vaginal exams they like to do every hour on the hour just to check things are *not* necessary.

There are a number of problems with our perception of birth rape and trauma, though. Namely, that no woman has the right to be upset by a traumatic experience and therefore she should just "get over it" and move on, because "at least she has a healthy baby!" Sometimes the interventions performed are truly necessary, and sometimes they aren't.

People also like to argue that because you're not a doctor, you can't possibly know what interventions are necessary, etc. etc. The history of mistreatment in childbirth goes back several decades, to the "father" of modern obstetrics, Dr. Joseph DeLee and his barbaric practices in 'prophylactic obstetrics.' Meaning, an episiotomy and forceps deliver for everyone. Women were strapped to their beds and handled roughly by nurses. There is much documentation of bad treatment and yet, few people seem to realize that this is not really a new problem. And just recently it was brought to light that it's common practice in the medical world to subject drugged women to pelvic exams by residents while they're in the hospital for an unrelated reason. WTH?

So when someone speaks up about it, no one wants to admit that it happens. Or it becomes a virtual pissing match between women over who's birth was harder, more painful, more tragic and yet I never complained! The problem is we don't realize that a lot of the crap that's been done to us is unnecessary and not always the best practice. Stop treating labor as an accident waiting to happen and treat problems as they arise, instead of like they already have.