I am not a woman but I am a person who has a uterus and I am not going to use it. I totally love kids! I just don't want to be someone's parent. I love that other people do want to be parents, so that I can hang out with their kids, and then give them back later! I don't need to have a reason not to want to have kids, or justify my decision to anyone. I just don't want to have kids. I don't think people who choose to be parents need to justify their decision to anyone either. I am glad that other people are parents and I am glad that I am not!

_________________Man, fork the gender card, imma come at you with the whole damned gender deck. - Olives Did you ever think that, like, YOU are a sexy costume FOR a diva cup? - solipsistnationblog!FB!

I think kids are super cool. I like being around them. I've just never thought I'd have one of my own. There are the reasons I talk about- so many dreams to achieve, career goals, writing a book, backpacking through Europe. There are the reasons I don't talk about- what if I'm a terrible mom? Am I too mentally ill to be a good parent? And then there is my need to defy convention. I am not obligated to have a child, there is purpose beyond procreation, etc. So I get why you want to be a mother, and I get why you might not. As for me, I think I may like to someday, and if my endless devotion and love for my spoiled cats is any indication, I'll be quite the swell mom. But not before I'm ready, and I sure wish people would stop asking.

I find it interesting that the title of the thread has not provoked any discussion. It's not about people who have chosen not to parent but specifically about women who have chosen not to be mothers.

I went to ask boyfriend what he thought, and he said he had no real reason, he just doesn't have the urge and only thinks of it in negatives.

I think its very impressed on women that they need to be mothers one day (and from a young age, we're the ones typically playing with baby dolls while the boys get dinosaurs) and while I do think men get pressure, like my boyfriend's mom really wants kids, women are expected to have a natural maternal instinct that will kick in. Plus, if you don't have babies now, later your biological clock will start ticking and it'll be too late and you'll be more likely to die in a terrorist attack than find a man who will bless you with his sperm.

Even by not having children, by pushing that status as an issue, you are allowing the identity of mother to define you. First wave feminists fought against biology as destiny...we've not traveled that far.

_________________A whole lot of access and privilege goes into being sanctimonious pricks J-DubDessert is currently a big bowl of sanctimonious, passive aggressive vegan enduced boak. FezzaYou people are way less funny than Pandacookie. Sucks to be you.-interrobang?!

I find it interesting that the title of the thread has not provoked any discussion. It's not about people who have chosen not to parent but specifically about women who have chosen not to be mothers.

People just don't expect my boyfriend to want to have kids. Or men in general. As if women just kept pressuring men into having children.

My brother is great with children, always has been and loves children. He has a very busy job and he is already in a situation where he dreads having to tell people that he needs to take time off for his kid. Because that is not what people expect of fathers, to take more time off than necessary for a child. He's been in this situation for a few years now where his girlfriend kinda wants a kid but is unsure about the time and he really really wants to be a father. And this kind of giddy i-want-a-child-so-badly-i-just-know thing is totally negated when it comes to men. What a shitty sexist world.

Besides all the philosophical blah I said before (and personally I find it a bit uncool when you tell us that our view of life is just "sad") I think I would not be a good parent. I would either project my hope and dreams onto them or wouldn't be able to relate, I think. And I think I would not be able to deal with them if they weren't intelligent and compassionate and rational.

If I ever had a desire for children "We need to talk about Kevin" shut it down for good, ha.

_________________

lepelaar wrote:

The PPK is a mere cooking seminar for flexitarians who believe in the good of man, but might be a good resource for 3d video expertise and ready-made inhumane slaughterhouse timelines.

5 pages in & no reference to 'breeders' yet? And this place calls itself a vegan forum?

Seriously though, if ever there was a topic not worth debating on a vegan forum it's kids vs no kids. Despite people going out of their way to be nice it is inevitable that someone is going to take offence to something sooner or later.

Woah... interesting thread. I'm not going to get into the philosophical or ethical discussion, but will just talk about my own experience.

Dr. Apricot wrote:

pandacookie wrote:

The only thing I have always held as an absolute no in my life is having kids. Never. No way.

Yep, this is how I've felt since I was 8. I took permanent steps to prevent pregnancy, and that's one part of my life I'm absolutely thrilled about.

When I was 4 or 5, my parents came home one day to me saying "I'm never going to have children. Just puppies and kittens." I haven't changed my mind since then. I'm 45 and got sterilized a couple of years ago. I would have done it sooner, but I was single for a very very long time before that and wasn't haven't sex often enough to justify having surgery.

What gets me is that when people hear I don't want kids, they assume I must hate kids. I don't. I am not very child oriented, but then, I'm not very people oriented. There are a few kids that I adore and are part of my life, and a whole lot that I want nothing to do with (just as there are a few adults that I adore and want in my life, and there are a whole lot I just can't stand).

But even around the kids I adore, spending time with them just confirms that I've made the right decision to not have kids of my own. I've had people see me with my nephew and tell me that I'd be a great mother, but I think I'm great with him because I don't have to be his mother. I have just enough energy to be the fun aunt every once in a while, just like I have just enough energy to put on an extroverted face in social situations, but if I had to do it 24/7, I think I would be a very unhappy person.

Having an autosomal dominant genetic disease myself, and having a partner dealing with both physical and mental illnesses with genetic components are added reasons to not to want to add to the gene pool, but really those are just icing on the cake. Even if we were both 100% healthy, kids just ain't for me. (My partner could have gone either way, but is perfectly happy to not go down the parenting road.)

_________________Ain't no guarantees in life, and nothing that comes out of my vagina can change that. - Erika Soyf*cker

Besides all the philosophical blah I said before (and personally I find it a bit uncool when you tell us that our view of life is just "sad") I think I would not be a good parent. I would either project my hope and dreams onto them or wouldn't be able to relate, I think. And I think I would not be able to deal with them if they weren't intelligent and compassionate and rational.

I didn't tell anyone their view of life was sad, actually. I have only mentioned biology as destiny and Pat Benetar.

If your brother was a woman, it would be expected that he would change his professional life or abandon it to fulfill his desire for children. But fatherhood is supposed to be a part of his identity, not the central or entire thing.

_________________A whole lot of access and privilege goes into being sanctimonious pricks J-DubDessert is currently a big bowl of sanctimonious, passive aggressive vegan enduced boak. FezzaYou people are way less funny than Pandacookie. Sucks to be you.-interrobang?!

From a critical theory standpoint, it's considered selfish to not have children because women are tasked with creating new citizens--both literally and figuratively. Women gestate and birth children, but they are also tasked with inculcating cultural norms, (re)affirming notions of nationalism, capitalism, hierarchical gender and race relations for the next generation.

We don't talk about this openly, but this is a big part of why women (note: women, not men) are selfish for not wanting children. They are not fulfilling their duties to the nation.

And childless women are a hell of a lot more of a challenge to the status quo than women with kids. We can easily dismiss the wage gap as an unfortunate side effect of women's "natural" maternal instinct, rather than an ongoing sexist project. We can dismiss the huge gender disparity in management, government, science, as an unfortunate but expected side effect of women staying home with their kids. And expecting women to want to stay home with their kids prevents us from forcing the issue of universal childcare, which ends up harming the women who can neither afford to stay home nor put their kids in unattainably expensive childcare.

I wanted to repost J-Dub's comments because I think they are worth discussing.

_________________A whole lot of access and privilege goes into being sanctimonious pricks J-DubDessert is currently a big bowl of sanctimonious, passive aggressive vegan enduced boak. FezzaYou people are way less funny than Pandacookie. Sucks to be you.-interrobang?!

Besides all the philosophical blah I said before (and personally I find it a bit uncool when you tell us that our view of life is just "sad") I think I would not be a good parent. I would either project my hope and dreams onto them or wouldn't be able to relate, I think. And I think I would not be able to deal with them if they weren't intelligent and compassionate and rational.

I didn't tell anyone their view of life was sad, actually. I have only mentioned biology as destiny and Pat Benetar.

You didn't, but somebody else did.

_________________Ain't no guarantees in life, and nothing that comes out of my vagina can change that. - Erika Soyf*cker

Even by not having children, by pushing that status as an issue, you are allowing the identity of mother to define you. First wave feminists fought against biology as destiny...we've not traveled that far.

It is for some people very hard to ignore when procreation as destiny is pushed in your face a lot. I wouldn't have a lot of identity markers if I wasn't constantly reminded of it. J-Dub's post does a good job of saying why its a gendered issue, I don't understand why we're bad feminists for trying to discuss it?

_________________I was really surprised the first time I saw a penis. After those banana tutorials, I was expecting something so different. -Tofulish

And childless women are a hell of a lot more of a challenge to the status quo than women with kids. We can easily dismiss the wage gap as an unfortunate side effect of women's "natural" maternal instinct, rather than an ongoing sexist project. We can dismiss the huge gender disparity in management, government, science, as an unfortunate but expected side effect of women staying home with their kids. And expecting women to want to stay home with their kids prevents us from forcing the issue of universal childcare, which ends up harming the women who can neither afford to stay home nor put their kids in unattainably expensive childcare.

J-dub is wise, but I think its problematic to divide women's issues into childless women versus women with kids. Whether you have kids of not, women deserve the same access to pay, management roles, etc. 85% of women with children work outside the home, and there isn't any reason why they shouldn't be supported whether they have kids or not and whether or not they have a co-parent in the home. Whether you have kids or not, its still an ongoing sexist project.

And as for universal health care, I am a stay-at-home parent, and we pay $1500 a month for catastrophic care - ie nothing is covered until we incur $10,000 in bills individually (so $30,000 as a family). We cannot buy better coverage in our state. It is more than we would pay in rent in this area. I don't see how universal health care is connected to expecting women to stay at home. It is really sad that we have a situation in the US where your health care moves with your job so that if you are unemployed you lose all safety just when you need it most. It is also really scary to say that SAHP should be reliant on their working spouses to provide healthcare access because it creates a problematic dynamic, and makes it harder for people to leave a bad situation. Universal healthcare affects us all.

Feminism makes it possible for all of us to choose what is right for us, whatever that may be. And I would hope that none of us would call another person's reproductive choices, whatever they may be selfish.

We are all smart, thoughtful, compassionate and kind women, and the movement is better off if we stand together against the patriarchy and don't resort to internal divisions and judgements. Onwards (TM PCookie)!

_________________My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.

And childless women are a hell of a lot more of a challenge to the status quo than women with kids. We can easily dismiss the wage gap as an unfortunate side effect of women's "natural" maternal instinct, rather than an ongoing sexist project. We can dismiss the huge gender disparity in management, government, science, as an unfortunate but expected side effect of women staying home with their kids. And expecting women to want to stay home with their kids prevents us from forcing the issue of universal childcare, which ends up harming the women who can neither afford to stay home nor put their kids in unattainably expensive childcare.

J-dub is wise, but I think its problematic to divide women's issues into childless women versus women with kids. Whether you have kids of not, women deserve the same access to pay, management roles, etc. 85% of women with children work outside the home, and there isn't any reason why they shouldn't be supported whether they have kids or not and whether or not they have a co-parent in the home. Whether you have kids or not, its still an ongoing sexist project.

And as for universal health care, I am a stay-at-home parent, and we pay $1500 a month for catastrophic care - ie nothing is covered until we incur $10,000 in bills individually (so $30,000 as a family). We cannot buy better coverage in our state. It is more than we would pay in rent in this area. I don't see how universal health care is connected to expecting women to stay at home. It is really sad that we have a situation in the US where your health care moves with your job so that if you are unemployed you lose all safety just when you need it most. It is also really scary to say that SAHP should be reliant on their working spouses to provide healthcare access because it creates a problematic dynamic, and makes it harder for people to leave a bad situation. Universal healthcare affects us all.

Feminism makes it possible for all of us to choose what is right for us, whatever that may be. And I would hope that none of us would call another person's reproductive choices, whatever they may be selfish.

We are all smart, thoughtful, compassionate and kind women, and the movement is better off if we stand together against the patriarchy and don't resort to internal divisions and judgements. Onwards (TM PCookie)!

I feel that its problematic in itself to say we're being divisive or that identifying as childless is playing into the patriarchy still. Mothers have unique concerns! And I don't think anyone here is suggesting that its an us vs them scenario. Maybe things are said outside this forum in childless forums, most likely, but nobody here expressed that. Furthermore, I'm extremely all for kindergarten and universal daycare, even though I don't have children myself, I have friends who do who suffer because they are too poor to afford daycare, but can't afford not to work. I think society itself would be a lot better if we had the attitude that raising a child isn't a mother's sole responsibility.

That said, mothers have unique issues, and childless people have their own too! The pressure of being a mother, and having no basis to envision one's future. The default is get married, have kids, have a house, have a car, and now that my goals isn't that goal, I'm a little lost as far as my life plan goes.

Like, if we had a thread (and we do!) on hair removal and the best ways to, we can still have a thread for ladies (and I think we do or did on the old forum) who don't shave to discuss their issues too. Its not an either or scenario, and I don't think its fair that women can't discuss being childless without the thread becoming about whether its feminist or identity politics or making mothers defensive when very little offensive things were said, and dealt with accordingly.

_________________I was really surprised the first time I saw a penis. After those banana tutorials, I was expecting something so different. -Tofulish

I think part of having a candid discussion about reproduction means not shutting down when people are trying to critically dissect it. I think it's absolutely fair to say child-rearing is not a selfless act. There isn't a single thing people do on this planet that isn't subject to critical analysis, and I don't see why child-rearing should be any different. The fact is, not everyone likes it, wants to do it, or even agrees with it. I think this thread is a good place to discuss all of that, and if that's not satisfactory, there's an entire subforum dedicated to talking about the other side of the coin.

Calling attention to the fact that there is multiple perspectives on this huge part of adulthood is not anti-feminist.

_________________Did you notice the slight feeling of panic at the words "Chicken Basin Street"? Like someone was walking over your grave? Try not to remember. We must never remember. - mumblesIs this about devilberries and nazifruit again? - footface

Last edited by paprikapapaya on Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

It does! But what I'm saying is it affects mothers uniquely, and women who are expected to become mothers eventually and I don't think its divisive to analyze that. There's lots of different ways equal pay affects women, race, whether one is cis or not, disability, etc, and they might all intersect, and its very useful to look at each reason.

_________________I was really surprised the first time I saw a penis. After those banana tutorials, I was expecting something so different. -Tofulish

I agree that there are lots of ways that equal pay affects women. I think this is such an interesting thread about feminism and women's roles and intersectionality, and I would love to be part of the debate, because I think its an important one. But again, I apologize if my posts feel like they are chilling the debate or defending the status quo.

I would love to discuss these issues in a thread that parents and non-parents could participate in, because I am learning a lot from the discourse.

_________________My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.

I don't think we need to explain why we don't want to have children (or anything else for that matter). The fitting answer for every "Why don't you (want to)" is "There's no need to".

There are 4 million human residents in my country, and demographs and politicians want 7 to save the economy. (You can only imagine what it's like for childfree people in this country.) I might be selfish towards the country, but being dragged into a Ponzi scheme (pretty much every social system) doesn't justify dragging others into it. But, I definitely am not selfish towards my biological children, because I can't be selfish towards somebody who doesn't exist. I am selfish towards orphaned children because I don't want to adopt or foster any. So, yes, I am selfish.

Pretty much everything we do is for selfish reasons (even when we give money to beggars, it's so that we feel better), and I don't see why anybody would be offended by being called selfish. We are all selfish. It's normal.

Ariann wrote:

as we all are, nothing keeps us from killing ourselves if we think our lives not worth living

We need to distinguish between lives worth starting and lives worth continuing. My life was not worth starting, but, at the moment, it's worth continuing. But I do know there will be a moment, in a few decades (if not before), when it won't be worth continuing any more due to age-related problems.

Even those whose lives aren't worth continuing are afraid of painful dying. They are afraid of not succeeding in killing themselves. Dignified dying for foreigners is available in Switzerland, but it's very expensive.

Jigglypuff wrote:

This is such a sad and sick way to view the world.

I'm afraid I don't get your argument. Why do you thing it's sad (and what exactly do you mean by 'sad' when talking about a worldview)? Why do you think it's sick (and what exactly do you mean by 'sick' when talking about a worldview)?

I don't see anyone trying to shut parents out of the conversation, Tofulish. What I am seeing is there being an effort to shut down any discussion that doesn't flatter child-rearing, by saying no one but the rearer has a right to an opinion because it's so deeply personal. It may be personal, but I still don't see why it can't be analyzed.

_________________Did you notice the slight feeling of panic at the words "Chicken Basin Street"? Like someone was walking over your grave? Try not to remember. We must never remember. - mumblesIs this about devilberries and nazifruit again? - footface

What gets me is that when people hear I don't want kids, they assume I must hate kids. I don't. I am not very child oriented, but then, I'm not very people oriented. There are a few kids that I adore and are part of my life, and a whole lot that I want nothing to do with (just as there are a few adults that I adore and want in my life, and there are a whole lot I just can't stand).

Yeah and when that leads to people projecting how awful they used to be before they had kids, as if I'm the same way because I don't have kids and if I had kids I'd feel totally different from the way I don't feel in the first place. Look, sorry you were a dick and having a kid magically changed that but I'm not by default a dick because you were.

Even by not having children, by pushing that status as an issue, you are allowing the identity of mother to define you. First wave feminists fought against biology as destiny...we've not traveled that far.

It is for some people very hard to ignore when procreation as destiny is pushed in your face a lot. I wouldn't have a lot of identity markers if I wasn't constantly reminded of it. J-Dub's post does a good job of saying why its a gendered issue, I don't understand why we're bad feminists for trying to discuss it?

We're not. I was just noting that on the 60th (?) anniversary of The Feminine Mystique and about 93 yrs after women got the vote in the US, we are still making mothering a central part of a woman's identity in a way that it's not for men. Everyone is entitled to an identity that is more broad than whether or not you are a parent.

_________________A whole lot of access and privilege goes into being sanctimonious pricks J-DubDessert is currently a big bowl of sanctimonious, passive aggressive vegan enduced boak. FezzaYou people are way less funny than Pandacookie. Sucks to be you.-interrobang?!

Today I bough a pack of Plan B and a new blazer and I felt totally awesome about that. No babies for me. I'm 23 and I don't look at life as absolutes, but I know I would rather have a career than a baby, and actually I am pretty sure I would rather travel than have a baby, relax rather than have a baby, sleep rather than have a baby, do volunteer work rather than have a baby, drink wine every day rather than have a baby.. I just don't feel like it's something I want. I do know that I agree with Erica Jong, though: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... %3DarticleIf I do decide to have a child someday, my parenting would be A LOT different than how most of my friends do it. I respect their way of doing it and I think they are amazing parents, but I don't think it's important to hang out with your child all of the time.

I have told my family that I don't really want children. This got no reaction whatsoever. I don't really think anyone cares. Maybe this will change at some point, but I have always been a career-minded person, so I don't think it was a big shock.

I do know that I agree with Erica Jong, though: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... %3DarticleIf I do decide to have a child someday, my parenting would be A LOT different than how most of my friends do it. I respect their way of doing it and I think they are amazing parents, but I don't think it's important to hang out with your child all of the time.

One reason I don't want to have kids is that it seems the pendulum has really shifted to having to supervise and watch your kids every second. I know that it's possible to do things differently but I worry that the pressure from society to hover and watch over your kids is so strong. It makes me sad that kids don't grow up with much freedom anymore, in so many ways.

_________________"If I were M. de la Viandeviande, I would now write a thirteen page post about how you have to have free will to be vegan, but modern science does not suggest any evidence for free will, therefore it is impossible to be vegan." -mumbles