MADELEINE McCANN was probably abducted after walking out of her holiday apartment in search of her parents, an expert on her disappearance said yesterday.

Share on print Share on emailMADELEINE McCANN was probably abducted after walking out of her holiday apartment in search of her parents, an expert on her disappearance said yesterday.

Criminologist Mark Williams-Thomas said it was UNLIKELY an abductor entered apartment 5a at the Ocean Club, in Praia Da Luz, Portugal.

The ex-detective said Madeleine was probably snatched by an opportunistic paedophile as she looked for her parents, Gerry and Liverpool-born Kate, as they ate with friends at a nearby tapas bar.

He said publicly-available evidence leads him to believe the three-year-old arranged her toys on her bed and left through the unlocked patio door.

Mr Williams-Thomas said the case bears striking similarities to the murder of Sarah Payne, who was snatched from a West Sussex field nine years ago.

He said: "Is it unreasonable to presume that Madeleine woke up and then went in search of her parents at a restaurant within a holiday complex that she had grown familiar with over the course of her holiday?

"Neatly tucking up her toys – as her parents had done to her – she slipped out of the apartment through an insecure patio door.

"This seems all the more credible, given what we know happened to eight-year-old Sarah Payne, who was abducted in July, 2000, even though she was only out of sight of her family for a matter of seconds."

Mr Williams-Thomas made his comments after reviewing more than 10,000 documents amassed by Portuguese police during their investigation. He said an abductor would not have arranged the toys on the bed as he would have wanted to escape as quickly as possible.

The expert said a paedophile may have also chosen to take one of the younger and more defenceless twins, Sean and Amelie, who were sleeping nearby.

Gerry McCann has revealed Madeleine asked her parents during the holiday why they had not come when the twins had been crying.

Mr Williams-Thomas said: "Based on the evidence provided from within the case files, it is more likely that she was abducted after she had left the apartment. A number of factors suggest that this is the likely scenario."

Gerry and Kate McCann will mark the second anniversary of the disappearance of their daughter this weekend.

They said the search for Madeleine continues with the "same strength and determination" and they are convinced someone knows where she is.

The McCanns have been left to co-ordinate their own inquiry after the Portuguese police investigation, widely regarded as deeply flawed, was closed.

Events in Praia da Luz on the evening of May 3 2007 have been scrutinised by police, private detectives and the media across the globe.Mr Williams-Thomas criticised several aspects of the Portuguese investigation, including botched searches and a complete failure to secure the crime scene.

He said the reliance on evidence of dogs trained to detect dead bodies was "significant and damaging", leading police to mistakenly focus on the McCanns.

Mr Williams-Thomas said the couple were made suspects, or arguidos, as a result of ambiguous evidence from specially-trained British dogs and their handlers.

And he said Portuguese author- ities must also act to register known paedophiles to stop the country becoming a favoured destination for criminals.

Mr Williams-Thomas said: "It is now clear that, after the Portuguese police failed to establish or identify any possible suspects during their initial investigation, and when they came under increasing pressure to resolve the case, they turned their attention on to Madeleine’s parents.

"In particular, they over-relied on the evidence of the dog team – such as it was, and it was this that prompted them to make Gerry and Kate McCann arguidos.

"In short, they concentrated on their theory that Madeleine had been accidentally killed and that her parents had later hidden her body.

"Although how they would have been able to have done this does not seem to have been considered by the Policia Judiciara."

Kate was made an arguido BEFORE FORMAL QUESTIONING so that she had the legal right to refuse to answer questions, she was not made an arguido after and because she had refused. I thought this had been discussed already on other threads and this is my understanding of it?

The fact of the dogs findings is what prompted the PJ to take Kate and Gerry in for questioning but they were not arguidos at this stage, it was before the formal questions were put to them, which Gerry was advised by his lawyer to answer and which he agreed to do and which Kate was advised not to answer, so as not to contradict Gerry.

As far as Madeleine waking up and walking out of the apartment to search for her parents, I feel she would be crying, calling for them, scared of the dark and I am certain someone would have witnessed this apart from a roaming paedophile besides Kate and Gerry themselves are absolutely certain that Madeleine could not have woken up and this is why many of us feel she was drugged because the McCanns themselves feel the abductor drugged them, so that is something we all agree on then, she was drugged.

All I remember which made me think was that the dogs were retired as Police dogs which is how their current owner was able to buy them. In some of the scenes the dogs were "led" to the object they were supposed to check out, the cupboard was one area the dog got really excited about.

@ LJC, Kate was made an arquido on the SECOND day of her questioning when she refused to answer questions .

Panda wrote:All I remember which made me think was that the dogs were retired as Police dogs which is how their current owner was able to buy them. In some of the scenes the dogs were "led" to the object they were supposed to check out, the cupboard was one area the dog got really excited about.

@ LJC, Kate was made an arquido on the SECOND day of her questioning when she refused to answer questions .

Panda wrote:All I remember which made me think was that the dogs were retired as Police dogs which is how their current owner was able to buy them. In some of the scenes the dogs were "led" to the object they were supposed to check out, the cupboard was one area the dog got really excited about.

@ LJC, Kate was made an arquido on the SECOND day of her questioning when she refused to answer questions .

She couldn't be asked those questions if she wasn't made an arguido.

Claudia, read the report in the mccannfiles. Kate was questioned on the 4th 6th and 7th. It was nearing the end of the interview on 6th that after discussing with Abreu he advised her not to answer which is why she was made an aguido . Although she was supposedly questioned on 7th, I couldn't find a report on that.

kitti wrote:MADELEINE McCANN was probably abducted after walking out of her holiday apartment in search of her parents, an expert on her disappearance said yesterday.

Share on print Share on emailMADELEINE McCANN was probably abducted after walking out of her holiday apartment in search of her parents, an expert on her disappearance said yesterday.

Criminologist Mark Williams-Thomas said it was UNLIKELY an abductor entered apartment 5a at the Ocean Club, in Praia Da Luz, Portugal.

The ex-detective said Madeleine was probably snatched by an opportunistic paedophile as she looked for her parents, Gerry and Liverpool-born Kate, as they ate with friends at a nearby tapas bar.

He said publicly-available evidence leads him to believe the three-year-old arranged her toys on her bed and left through the unlocked patio door.

Mr Williams-Thomas said the case bears striking similarities to the murder of Sarah Payne, who was snatched from a West Sussex field nine years ago.

He said: "Is it unreasonable to presume that Madeleine woke up and then went in search of her parents at a restaurant within a holiday complex that she had grown familiar with over the course of her holiday?

"Neatly tucking up her toys – as her parents had done to her – she slipped out of the apartment through an insecure patio door.

"This seems all the more credible, given what we know happened to eight-year-old Sarah Payne, who was abducted in July, 2000, even though she was only out of sight of her family for a matter of seconds."

Mr Williams-Thomas made his comments after reviewing more than 10,000 documents amassed by Portuguese police during their investigation. He said an abductor would not have arranged the toys on the bed as he would have wanted to escape as quickly as possible.

The expert said a paedophile may have also chosen to take one of the younger and more defenceless twins, Sean and Amelie, who were sleeping nearby.

Gerry McCann has revealed Madeleine asked her parents during the holiday why they had not come when the twins had been crying.

Mr Williams-Thomas said: "Based on the evidence provided from within the case files, it is more likely that she was abducted after she had left the apartment. A number of factors suggest that this is the likely scenario."

Gerry and Kate McCann will mark the second anniversary of the disappearance of their daughter this weekend.

They said the search for Madeleine continues with the "same strength and determination" and they are convinced someone knows where she is.

The McCanns have been left to co-ordinate their own inquiry after the Portuguese police investigation, widely regarded as deeply flawed, was closed.

Events in Praia da Luz on the evening of May 3 2007 have been scrutinised by police, private detectives and the media across the globe.Mr Williams-Thomas criticised several aspects of the Portuguese investigation, including botched searches and a complete failure to secure the crime scene.

He said the reliance on evidence of dogs trained to detect dead bodies was "significant and damaging", leading police to mistakenly focus on the McCanns.

Mr Williams-Thomas said the couple were made suspects, or arguidos, as a result of ambiguous evidence from specially-trained British dogs and their handlers.

And he said Portuguese author- ities must also act to register known paedophiles to stop the country becoming a favoured destination for criminals.

Mr Williams-Thomas said: "It is now clear that, after the Portuguese police failed to establish or identify any possible suspects during their initial investigation, and when they came under increasing pressure to resolve the case, they turned their attention on to Madeleine’s parents.

"In particular, they over-relied on the evidence of the dog team – such as it was, and it was this that prompted them to make Gerry and Kate McCann arguidos.

"In short, they concentrated on their theory that Madeleine had been accidentally killed and that her parents had later hidden her body.

"Although how they would have been able to have done this does not seem to have been considered by the Policia Judiciara."

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I feel sure that if Madeleine did walk out of the apartment, she wouldn't be thinking about tidying her toys away, she would more than likely have been in a distressed state, as she went to find her parents. Plus she would have left her fingerprints on the sliding doors or the rail as she walked down the stairs and the gate as she opened it to go out onto the street.

Panda wrote:All I remember which made me think was that the dogs were retired as Police dogs which is how their current owner was able to buy them. In some of the scenes the dogs were "led" to the object they were supposed to check out, the cupboard was one area the dog got really excited about.

@ LJC, Kate was made an arquido on the SECOND day of her questioning when she refused to answer questions .

She couldn't be asked those questions if she wasn't made an arguido.

Claudia, read the report in the mccannfiles. Kate was questioned on the 4th 6th and 7th. It was nearing the end of the interview on 6th that after discussing with Abreu he advised her not to answer which is why she was made an aguido . Although she was supposedly questioned on 7th, I couldn't find a report on that.

I don't need to read a report, Panda. I'm telling about the Portuguese law. No one could be asked questions that may incriminate themselves without being made an arguido.

I feel sure that if Madeleine did walk out of the apartment, she wouldn't be thinking about tidying her toys away, she would more than likely have been in a distressed state, as she went to find her parents. Plus she would have left her fingerprints on the sliding doors or the rail as she walked down the stairs and the gate as she opened it to go out onto the street.____________________________________________________________

Plus she would have left her fingerprints on the sliding doors, WHICH SHE CLOSED BEHIND HER, or the rail as she walked down the stairs and the gate as she opened, AND CLOSED BEHIND HER, it to go out onto the street.

ETA: If the McCanns had a clear line of sight of the patio doors, THEY diliberately left UNLOCKED, why didn't they see the 'abductor' sliding open that door and see it being closed by the 'abductor'?

jeanmonroe wrote:I feel sure that if Madeleine did walk out of the apartment, she wouldn't be thinking about tidying her toys away, she would more than likely have been in a distressed state, as she went to find her parents. Plus she would have left her fingerprints on the sliding doors or the rail as she walked down the stairs and the gate as she opened it to go out onto the street.____________________________________________________________

Plus she would have left her fingerprints on the sliding doors, WHICH SHE CLOSED BEHIND HER, or the rail as she walked down the stairs and the gate as she opened, AND CLOSED BEHIND HER, it to go out onto the street.

ETA: If the McCanns had a clear line of sight of the patio doors, THEY diliberately left UNLOCKED, why didn't they see the 'abductor' sliding open that door and see it being closed by the 'abductor'?

or weren't they watching the unlocked patio door at all?

Probably nothing to watch Jean, in my opinion, whatever happened to Madeleine, happened before the McCanns went out. I don't even believe the twins were in the apartment that night, I believe they were brought back when before the police were called.

Take a look at the information in the link, if you scroll down the page, you'll see the 2 pages from Madeleine's sticker book.

MWT is correct about one thing, there is no evidence that an abductor entered the apartment. However, he does not account for the open window. Who does he feel opened that window and why? Kate denies having ever opended the window and Madeleine would not have opened it. Madeline also would not have shut the patio door behind her and Oldfield would have found an open door if in fact he did actually go in the apartment (which he likely didn't). But we all know Kate's fingerprints so how does MWT explain that evidence?

jinvta wrote:MWT is correct about one thing, there is no evidence that an abductor entered the apartment. However, he does not account for the open window. Who does he feel opened that window and why? Kate denies having ever opended the window and Madeleine would not have opened it. Madeline also would not have shut the patio door behind her and Oldfield would have found an open door if in fact he did actually go in the apartment (which he likely didn't). But we all know Kate's fingerprints so how does MWT explain that evidence?

And the McCanns would have seen the patio door 'open' as they were almost staring at it, constantly, from the tapas bar, so they say, having an absolutely unobstructed view of that door.

My BIG question is WHY are all these 'professionals' completely ignoring all their hundreds of years 'collective experience' and training to support these two non-entity self confessed neglectful parents?

Let's hope all these experts, MWT included, will be out in force to support the next 'sink estate' mother, and there surely will be one, that leaves her 3 under 4 years old kids alone, in her unlocked house, to go to the pub, in sight of her house, for 35 minutes and one goes 'missing'.

[quote="Panda"]All I remember which made me think was that the dogs were retired as Police dogs which is how their current owner was able to buy them. In some of the scenes the dogs were "led" to the object they were supposed to check out, the cupboard was one area the dog got really excited about.

Panda wrote:All I remember which made me think was that the dogs were retired as Police dogs which is how their current owner was able to buy them. In some of the scenes the dogs were "led" to the object they were supposed to check out, the cupboard was one area the dog got really excited about.

@ LJC, Kate was made an arquido on the SECOND day of her questioning when she refused to answer questions .

Panda, a dog's nose is so sensitive that it picks up odours in the air. In the McCanns apartment, for example, Eddie went in and went wild because, for him, the odour was everywhere. Martin Grime's job was then to encourage Eddie to home in on where the odour was strongest. That's where Eddie would alert, when he knew that he had tracked the odour to its source. Hence, the dogs were "led" to any area that Martin, as handler, might think the particles creating the odour could cling.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________"You can run on for a long time, Run on for a long time, Run on for a long time, Sooner or later God'll cut you down." (Johnny Cash)

That is so true ........a dog's nose is so sensitive that it picks up odours in the air. Even my Springer who is not a trained dog is so clued up on smells. You can see his head and nose alerting all the time and very clever.

Just on my experience with my own untrained dog ..I believe those two Springer's completely.

Krisy22

Platinum Poster

Number of posts : 3382Location : good old Oxfordshire no goats... lots of RAIN....Warning :

This case is one which I hope to live long enough to see the truth being discovered. Not to mention the McCanns of course.

How did the killer (whether he acted alone or was hired) know that Jill was going to be at her house at that particular time? She no longer lived there permanently and the property was up for sale.

There is no evidence to suggest that she was followed there.

As with most murders, I think that the answer lies with someone known to her.

Yes, someone known to her who knew her movements, someone who either was the killer or tipped off a hitman in what appears to have been a professional killing.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________"You can run on for a long time, Run on for a long time, Run on for a long time, Sooner or later God'll cut you down." (Johnny Cash)

kitti wrote:MADELEINE McCANN was probably abducted after walking out of her holiday apartment in search of her parents, an expert on her disappearance said yesterday.

Share on print Share on emailMADELEINE McCANN was probably abducted after walking out of her holiday apartment in search of her parents, an expert on her disappearance said yesterday.

Criminologist Mark Williams-Thomas said it was UNLIKELY an abductor entered apartment 5a at the Ocean Club, in Praia Da Luz, Portugal.

The ex-detective said Madeleine was probably snatched by an opportunistic paedophile as she looked for her parents, Gerry and Liverpool-born Kate, as they ate with friends at a nearby tapas bar.

He said publicly-available evidence leads him to believe the three-year-old arranged her toys on her bed and left through the unlocked patio door.

Mr Williams-Thomas said the case bears striking similarities to the murder of Sarah Payne, who was snatched from a West Sussex field nine years ago.

He said: "Is it unreasonable to presume that Madeleine woke up and then went in search of her parents at a restaurant within a holiday complex that she had grown familiar with over the course of her holiday?

"Neatly tucking up her toys – as her parents had done to her – she slipped out of the apartment through an insecure patio door.

"This seems all the more credible, given what we know happened to eight-year-old Sarah Payne, who was abducted in July, 2000, even though she was only out of sight of her family for a matter of seconds."

Mr Williams-Thomas made his comments after reviewing more than 10,000 documents amassed by Portuguese police during their investigation. He said an abductor would not have arranged the toys on the bed as he would have wanted to escape as quickly as possible.

The expert said a paedophile may have also chosen to take one of the younger and more defenceless twins, Sean and Amelie, who were sleeping nearby.

Gerry McCann has revealed Madeleine asked her parents during the holiday why they had not come when the twins had been crying.

Mr Williams-Thomas said: "Based on the evidence provided from within the case files, it is more likely that she was abducted after she had left the apartment. A number of factors suggest that this is the likely scenario."

Gerry and Kate McCann will mark the second anniversary of the disappearance of their daughter this weekend.

They said the search for Madeleine continues with the "same strength and determination" and they are convinced someone knows where she is.

The McCanns have been left to co-ordinate their own inquiry after the Portuguese police investigation, widely regarded as deeply flawed, was closed.

Events in Praia da Luz on the evening of May 3 2007 have been scrutinised by police, private detectives and the media across the globe.Mr Williams-Thomas criticised several aspects of the Portuguese investigation, including botched searches and a complete failure to secure the crime scene.

He said the reliance on evidence of dogs trained to detect dead bodies was "significant and damaging", leading police to mistakenly focus on the McCanns.

Mr Williams-Thomas said the couple were made suspects, or arguidos, as a result of ambiguous evidence from specially-trained British dogs and their handlers.

And he said Portuguese author- ities must also act to register known paedophiles to stop the country becoming a favoured destination for criminals.

Mr Williams-Thomas said: "It is now clear that, after the Portuguese police failed to establish or identify any possible suspects during their initial investigation, and when they came under increasing pressure to resolve the case, they turned their attention on to Madeleine’s parents.

"In particular, they over-relied on the evidence of the dog team – such as it was, and it was this that prompted them to make Gerry and Kate McCann arguidos.

"In short, they concentrated on their theory that Madeleine had been accidentally killed and that her parents had later hidden her body.

"Although how they would have been able to have done this does not seem to have been considered by the Policia Judiciara."

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Well, he's entitled to his opinion...

But, until he has cold hard indisputable proof to back up his assertions of what happened to Madeleine McCann, it is, and forever will be, nothing more than his own personal opinion...