Microsoft: Asia Not Playing Fair Over OS

A plan by Japan, China and South Korea to develop an operating system alternative to Microsoft’s Windows software could raise concerns over fair competition, Microsoft said on Friday. “Governments should not be in the position to decide who the winners are, [industry should]” Microsoft said.

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98 Comments

They may have a point, but wasps shouldn’t complain when they get stung.

2003-09-05 8:37 pm

“concerns over fair competition.” You mean concerns that other people might employ the same tactitcs that you do is more like it.

MS the dirty complaining about collusion. Imagine that.

Ha ha ha ha ha. Sorry redmond but you are going down.

2003-09-05 8:39 pm

Count down to export restrictions against the OS in 5, 4…..

2003-09-05 8:41 pm

So let me get this straight… It’s not fair for government to develop a free OS, but it is fair for a large company to have a monopoly that impedes the acceptance of a free OS.

Alrighty then.

2003-09-05 8:42 pm

I think markets, not governments should choose. History is full of peoples whos governments made the choices for them. It’s not pretty.

2003-09-05 8:42 pm

i have to admit that i am not a fan of government intervention in markets. UMTS is one of those products and look what it has done for the wireless world. Still MS has gone too far and it might be necessary to provide TEMPORARY gov. support to a competitive option to bring back competition in the market.

2003-09-05 8:45 pm

I was mainly indifferent about this whole idea at first, but if Microsoft is whining about it, it must be a Good Thing.

2003-09-05 8:47 pm

So, are you telling us that you do not have a brain? That you take decisions and you analyze situations based on your foes/friends reactions instead of thinking the situation on your own and decide about it? Wow.

2003-09-05 8:49 pm

Government did choose. They chose not to slap down Microsoft when it was clear that they were abusing their monopoly position. So it was ok for the government to choose then, but it’s not ok for them to choose now?

Hey I agree that a government should let the market do things.. but what is wrong for governments to get together and develop a new OS? They get together and develop missles, tanks, super computers, etc. so what is wrong with developing an OS? If it weren’t for governments in the 50s investing in reasearch for computers, we wouldn’t be where we are today.

Note, I am a libertarian and I fear government to death.. but all in all, this doesn’t outrage me… though my libertarian side must question if making a new OS is really what government is there for.

2003-09-05 8:50 pm

Eugenia: You should join us braindead guys sometime. Honestly, its very enjoyable. Im always happy. 😀 Its very BeOS-like.

2003-09-05 8:55 pm

To get rid of a monolopy. I say go for it.

2003-09-05 8:56 pm

>>

think markets, not governments should choose. History is full of peoples whos governments made the choices for them. It’s not pretty.

>>

I think you misunderstand. The governments are NOT choosing Oses for their citizens. They are simply joining hand to develope a free OS, which might conceivably get used in government departments. Its not like they are passing laws forcing citizens to user a particular OS. So, that they are doing is perfectly ok. If its okay for a government to develop mini-nukes and shock-and-awe bombs, it certainly should be okay for a government to develop a computer OS.

2003-09-05 8:59 pm

You reap what you sow.

I have no sympathy. If a market fails, then intervention is required to restore competition. MS has brought this on themselves. If they were smart, they would have ensured that they maintained some semblence of competition in the desktop market, rather than killing it at every turn.

In my view, this will be their downfall.

Matt

2003-09-05 9:02 pm

I agree completely. They aren’t forcing anyone but perhaps there own employees to use the OS they are making, and that is their right. Besides, if it has more merit than microsoft and everyone in asia buys it, it’s not like the government was pushing them, but it did win in a market place.

2003-09-05 9:03 pm

.. to support Microsoft. The reason they are doing this is because they think they are so much smarter than everyone else and they can’t stand to let American Caucasians beat them at something. I can’t buy plastic toy or even a sedan that is made in the United States any more. We have lost enough jobs to them. If I am taking sides on this then I chose Microsoft. I hope they spend several hundred billion dollars on this venture and I hope it fails.

I wish the US gov. had that kind of extra money but it’s too busy wasting money on military spending trying to “fix” everyone else’s problems for them. Why don’t we call back all our troops, focus money on the economy and let Asian nations spend themselves into the ground “fixing” everyone else’s problems and giving foreign aid. We could grant some of the extra money to American auto manufactures so they can build a car that gets better than 14 miles to the gallon. Where is GM’s version of the Civic hybrid, the Accord or the Subaru WRX?

uhm, sorry for the rant.

2003-09-05 9:10 pm

Josh and linux_baby have the proper perspective: there is no official-only-permissable-OS-of-Japan-China-S.Korea…

MS is saying: it’s only okay to use an OS that you pay for. These nations are saying we know, we a re paying to improve the free OS we chose.

All the countries are doing is paying for an OS by funding development.

2003-09-05 9:11 pm

Wow, wait to paint yourself as extremely racist. It’s a global economy, you should get used to it. It’s people like you that give all American’s (myself included) a bad name

2003-09-05 9:14 pm

On one hand you appear to argue that government intervention is bad when Asian countries do it, but ok when the US does it.

This is not an issue about America vs the world. Actually, your right it is about America vs the world. The more $ people spend on MS products, the more $ flow into the US. Which is good for the US, and obviously for the government. However, as a long term strategy for wealth creation in the US, it pretty much sucks.

What will happen is that the rest of the world will want to share in that wealth. The only way to do that is to create an IT industry in their own country. Linux is a cheap and easy way to do this.

If the US is smart, they will realise this now before it is too late, stop supporting MS, and start focussing on other wealth creation avenues now, before it’s too late.

Matt

2003-09-05 9:14 pm

> We could grant some of the extra money to American

> auto manufactures so they can build a car that

> gets better than 14 miles to the gallon. Where is

> GM’s version of the Civic hybrid, the Accord or

> the Subaru WRX?

What on earth makes you think that american car companies, the best buddies of the american oil industry, would want to build such a car? [yeah, it’s a totally irrelevant sidenote]

The asian governments are fed up with paying through their noses for MS licenses. And since they are quite capable to do so, they will get together and slice off a considerable about of money bleeding out of their pockets every year.

I just WISH that the EU would either get in on this project with them or do the same as them! An EU funded Linux distro with no money problems and a large development staff. That day perhaps will come. The German government is starting to sniff around Linux in some areas.

2003-09-05 9:14 pm

>> The reason they are doing this is because they think they are so much smarter than everyone else and they can’t stand to let American Caucasians beat them at something.

>>

That’s not why. Did you read the article? It does mention what the concern of those governments are. Security and viruses, for example. Maybe you don’t believe it, but those are actually genuine concerns. BTW, Windows isn’t exclusively developed by caucasians, so dont’ introduce ridiculous race-arguments.

>> ..wish the US gov. had that kind of extra money but it’s too busy wasting money on military spending trying to “fix” everyone else’s problems for them.

>>

Me too, and I am not even american. I wish your government would keep their money at home. I wish they would plough it into the education, or the national grid, or any of the one million things that need fixing in America, instead of using it to cause problems for everybody else.

2003-09-05 9:15 pm

Roads, education, hospitals, police, fire departments, armed forces, these are all part of the infrastructure, and should be public, not private. The rest of the world has a different take on this than in the U.S. – and America must respect that.

An OS is like the road system: it should not be private, but rather belong to the common good. Open Source Software is the perfect example of how something can belong to everyone, and yet not be mired down by bureaucracy (which is as much a problem for govt. than for very large corporations, btw).

That’s my opinion, anyway.

2003-09-05 9:16 pm

DO NOT turn this conversation into ugly political trolling, or all political statements will be moded down. Stay on topic.

2003-09-05 9:17 pm

Microsoft will not be happy until they own 100% of the whole damn world. What SICK BASTARDS.

2003-09-05 9:18 pm

The reason they are doing this is because they think they are so much smarter than everyone else and they can’t stand to let American Caucasians beat them at something.

This is quite a racist comment. Do you think only “caucasians” work at Microsoft? BTW, if it was really a race thing, why would Japan, China and Korea collaborate? They are not part of the same ethnic group, you know? Historically, there’s been quite the racial tensions between these groups.

2003-09-05 9:18 pm

I mean shouldn’t “private” industry do everything? I guess it’s also wrong that the U.S. govt supports and pays for all kinds of research. Shouldn’t private industry do that exclusively? You know what, MS is raping everyone. Monopolies just plain suck for consumers. Name one product that would be priced right if there was only one producer, effectively? This is so basic it’s not worth debating.

However, in the US, MS is a success story. We get money from all over the world thanks to MS’s rape job. So we are a bit conflicted, divided here over real govt regulation/intervention/antitrust enforcement. Overseas, it’s not the case. Linux is unstoppable overseas. f**k you, M$

2003-09-05 9:24 pm

Name one thing governemnt has tried and *hasn’t* messed up. It will be a joke of an OS when they’re done. It will cost more to make than MS makes in a year and will be pathetic.

Just wait and see…

2003-09-05 9:27 pm

“Governments should not be in the position to decide who the winners are, [Microsoft should]” Microsoft said.

2003-09-05 9:28 pm

“Governments should not be in the position to decide who the winners are, [industry should]”

This is absolutely correct.

Conversely, industry should not have the ability to manipulate government to decide who the winners are.

In America we have the Socialist Democrats and the Socialist Lite Republicans. Guess what Asia has?

2003-09-05 9:32 pm

In Quebec, the government developed the Hydro-electric infrastructures which greatly accelerated economic and social development in the province (oh, and we didn’t get hit by the blackout, either). Nationalized power and socialized medecine are two things people wouldn’t do without today.

Also, the U.S. govt. played a central role in developing computers and the Internet. But perhaps you don’t consider these to be successes?

2003-09-05 9:33 pm

…this is a joke, right? The Republicans are anything but socialists!

In any case, it’s not about “winners” and “losers”, but about building strong infrastructures for the common good. In that sense, I think Japan, China and Korea are on the right track.

2003-09-05 9:35 pm

Lately if i need a good laugh I can count on some M$ story.

The providences and conquered territories are burning. Soon it will reach Rome.

Tux is coming in with the penguinistas

😀 hooray!!

2003-09-05 9:36 pm

“Name one thing governemnt has tried and *hasn’t* messed up.”

Great then don’t bother calling 911 when you house catches fire. Ingrate.

2003-09-05 9:50 pm

Governments have always developed software for their own use, from administrative systems to information systems. Now some countries needs a better OS than Microsoft, and they have decided to pay for the development of a new system (or extend an existing OS) and get it customized to their needs.

2003-09-05 9:56 pm

“In Quebec, the government developed the Hydro-electric infrastructures which greatly accelerated economic and social development in the province (oh, and we didn’t get hit by the blackout, either). Nationalized power and socialized medicine are two things people wouldn’t do without today. ”

You’re kidding, right?

You’re going to compare the load on the grid in the eastern US with that of Quebec? That’s pretty funny.

Oh, you want to bring up socialized medicine…why do so many in Canada, come to the US? I lived there, I’ve seen it, and I know what people think about it…

“Also, the U.S. govt. played a central role in developing computers and the Internet”

It took the strong arm of business and industry to make the internet what it is. If it wasn’t for Cisco and others what would you have? US didn’t have a role in that part of it.

“Great then don’t bother calling 911 when you house catches fire. Ingrate.”

Emergency response and Defense of the country are legitimate government enterprises.

How can you compare the development of large and complex software systems with 911? It doesn’t make sense. Besides, they use commercially available call center systems to support the 911 centers, the technology..again..came from commercial enterprises.

Stop looking to the Government for relief from all your problems. You will be disappointed in the end.

2003-09-05 9:56 pm

The bottom line, really, is that the world needs more useable Oses, be they from private corporations or governments. Whether made by Ms or by some other entity, Computers are simply too vulnerable at this point in time. No matter, how you look at it, having the global computing infrastructure mostly depending on one OS is not wise.

2003-09-05 9:56 pm

I am a fan of competition, and i hope to see multiple operating systems playing a larger role in the market. My only concern is that such government efforts (which i am assuming will support linux) could make it quite difficult for openbeos, apple, and palm to compete.

Look at the cellular world. GSM is the product of significant government intervention so is UMTS. In both cases, government support was used to keep out competitors and to protect domestic (in this case European) vendors. China is trying the same with TD-SCDMA. So far this has created a mess in teh wireless market and an environment that effectively shuns innovators. Not good. My other concern is that all the governments are going to jump in on this OS thing and we’ll have the same situation, government supported and controlled consortiums running the show and no real competition, which is what UMTS is today by the way. That won’t help. It will be another version of Microsoft.

2003-09-05 9:57 pm

…unless they decide Microsoft.

Seriously though, I hope CJ&K can pull this off and create an excellent OS.

2003-09-05 10:03 pm

I think markets, not governments should choose. History is full of peoples whos governments made the choices for them. It’s not pretty.

I can’t speak for Korea or China, because I’ve never been there, but having lived for many years in Japan, I would have to say I don’t think it is the government creating this OS. Instead, it is more likely a partially government funded project carried out by a handful of private companies.

The Japanese government is involved financially in many industries including rice, telecommunications, etc. I don’t think this is a case of Big Brother deciding what OS people should use at all, but rather business as usual in that country.

2003-09-05 10:12 pm

You’re going to compare the load on the grid in the eastern US with that of Quebec? That’s pretty funny.

That has nothing to do with it – witness the fact that Ontario, whose “load” is comparable to Quebec’s, and who suffer from the blackout as well. The reason we didn’t get the blackout is simply that our power grid is not synchronized with that of the Eastern U.S. and Ontario. In any case, our modern and efficient power grid was all built through a government effort, and that was the original point.

Oh, you want to bring up socialized medicine…why do so many in Canada, come to the US?

Well, they don’t go to the U.S. for medical care, that’s for sure…except if they’re very rich and want to bypass waiting lists for certain very specific treatment.

I lived there, I’ve seen it, and I know what people think about it…

Yeah, well I live here, I’ve used the system, and I know that the overwhelming majority of people would never trade it for the american system. Elections have been won and lost on this: people want to keep this system, despite the fact that it isn’t perfect (nothing is) – proof that govt.-run programs can work and be popular. In other words, as far as socialized medicine’s popularity among canadians go, you are indeed full of it.

It took the strong arm of business and industry to make the internet what it is.

It also took govt. intervention. And it took government subisdies – lots of them – in order to make business and industry get on board. Hmmm…government subsidies…isn’t that government intervention in the economy? Why, yes, it is!

It’s a good thing you anti-government fanatics are pretty much limited to the states – the rest of the world is more reasonable and understands that governments and the common good are necessary things for a civilized world, and that runaway capitalism leads to chaos and inequality.

2003-09-05 10:14 pm

>> Look at the cellular world. GSM is the product of significant government intervention so is UMTS. In both cases, government support was used to keep out competitors and to protect domestic (in this case European) vendors.

>>

Oh no, you choose the worst possible example. GSM was a question of standard more than anything else. The europeans decided to impose some standards on the cell-phone industry, instead of letting things run amok like it did in North America. As a result, the Europeans have a much better cell phone industry. You buy a handset in the Netherlands and you can use it with any service anywhere in Europe, even amongst different service providers. Try getting sucha convinience here, and you will see just how much the handset will cost you!

2003-09-05 10:14 pm

I searched for the word “fair” on my windows c:Programs folder and my d:my_news_archives and I could not find it.

Can any one help me? Shut up Microsoft.

2003-09-05 10:14 pm

It’s Fujitsu, Sharp, Toshiba, and many others…

This is mentioend in several other versions of this story.

MS is smokin crack, plain and simple.

2003-09-05 10:19 pm

i agree with that. microsoft did not play fair and they are getting the same medicine. look what happened to BeOS and other companies that were squahed by microsoft.

if the goverment believes that microsoft can’t protect they information, they have the right to look for other option and poss linux is one of them.

– 2501

2003-09-05 10:21 pm

“I just WISH that the EU would either get in on this project with them or do the same as them! An EU funded Linux distro with no money problems and a large development staff. That day perhaps will come. The German government is starting to sniff around Linux in some areas.”

Maybe linux zealots should have thought about that before the crap that they pulled last week about EU software patents.

2003-09-05 10:24 pm

The OS has gotten to the point where its not just a product, but a vital piece of infrastructure for a nation’s economy. Control over the OS is too vital to leave to a single company. As long as its free (and I believe under Japan’s constitution, like the US’s, software developed by the government must be free) I see no problem with the government building and encouraging the deployment of an OS. This is no different than the government building roads and highways, only it requires you to think in terms of the networked 21st century.

2003-09-05 10:27 pm

Actually this is wise on their parts. After all, would we not expect the feds to invest if for some reason we were buying all of our sand from say Iraq. These governments are looking out for their own people…Unlike our govenment. After all, It’s OUR Government that let OUR Companies take OUR jobs and monies to asia for cheap plastic widgets and electronics in the first place. Their own governments are smart enough to see the weakness in trusting americans for every computer operating system and want to create their own.

Remember, Southeast Asia is learning from OUR mistakes. They WILL NOT let their own self-reliance die in the name of “free-trade”. They want OUR LUNCH, our place in the world and our lifestyles. Korea, Singapore, Japan are not third world countries any more–and they want the top spot not second place.

Oh, and Dodge did make a great car in the Neon, My 95 still gets 30MPG highway with almost 200K on it. That’s not too bad. Trouble is that americans WON’T BUY efficent cars unless their made to. As long as we only kill lots of Iraqies and not US soldiers, this will continue to be the trend.

2003-09-05 10:36 pm

>> You’re going to compare the load on the grid in the eastern US with that of Quebec? That’s pretty funny.

>>

Actually, its not funny. At all. The principle is the same.

And now that you mention it, do you know why the Eastern grid is collapsing? It is NOT because of government intervention. It is collapsing precisely because of the LACK of stringent government regulation. In fact, the power situation is a good example of what happens when privatisation and deregulation are allowed to run amok; when you leave public utilities in the hands of private corporations like Enron.

Now that the Eastern grid is in trouble, do you think these for-profit corporations will pick the bill to fix it? No, they must assuredly will not. They are all waiting for the same government you criticise to bail out the situation. According to estimates, that’s some 500-billion dollars off you, the tax payer!!!

I personally dislike government, but they are necessary in things like this. I would prefer a publicly funded tyranny to a private monopolist like MS anyday.

2003-09-05 10:37 pm

I agree that governments shouldn’t be doing that. But MS has no one to blame but themselves. If Windows wasn’t so expensive and so BAD, then Linux and the open source revolution may never have taken place. As a programmer, I don’t like free software, cause I like to get paid for my work. But I don’t mind seeing this happen either, becuase Microsoft and our own government have been doing the same low life tactics for way too long. I agree with the post that says, “Microsoft needs to go down.”

2003-09-05 10:57 pm

A convicted monopolist cries he is being mistreated?

2003-09-05 11:12 pm

In the case of Japan or South Korea, Microsoft may be right, as they believe in (somewhat) competition … but asian concepts of business are different than american … and they firmly believe in the “not built here” philosophy that apple had so much trouble getting over.

In the case of China, the statemtent is just plain studip … China is a COMMUNIST country, the government is supposed to control such things for the good of it’s people … so what MS should be scared about is that communist china, block capitolist japan, and free market south korea all agree on ousting their software … hmm, sounds like MS never really work up and served the asian market that well … but what do they expect, which tradionally ascii based windows could easily handle all western / european langauges quite well, the slow support for unicode and the crappy way they leave the langauge packs out of their web browser, make no sense at all … why shouldn’t all windows owners have access to all supported langauges? Hell, how does a Korean speaking american even get a Korean copy of windows?

And also, the main reason windows is not easily beaten, is there huge software base … but almost none of the main software players have native asian versions of their software … so what do they expect … when Japanese people found the open source movement, they immediately began writing software to meet their needs … and so languages like ruby (which are native under unix) have built in support for Japanese manipulation … and also, systems like KDE are more “even” between american and non-american support …

2003-09-05 11:23 pm

“Governments should not be in the position to decide who the winners are, [industry should]” Microsoft said.”

Ok MS, like you should be the one deciding then? Cheap hardware should have an alternitive like Linux or whatever OS these countries want. Heck make a better one, one that isn’t built on security updates, etc and make it more secure for end users and companies.

2003-09-05 11:50 pm

just because the government fofers you a free os you don’t heve to use it, ther eis no problemw ith this

2003-09-05 11:51 pm

“And now that you mention it, do you know why the Eastern grid is collapsing? It is NOT because of government intervention. It is collapsing precisely because of the LACK of stringent government regulation. In fact, the power situation is a good example of what happens when privatisation and deregulation are allowed to run amok; when you leave public utilities in the hands of private corporations like Enron.”

The grid is regulated. The problem occured. Utility companies were de-regulated, not the power grid. The Grid isn’t owned by utility and power generation companies. It’s only been partically de-regulated.

We suffer from undercapacity and over regulation. Have you seen the regulations? Have you seen the volume of books on which it is printed?

We can’t build power plants anymore. Yet the demand for electricity continues to rise. Environmentalists and special interests have made close to impossible to build and add the needed capacity.

Do you really think that power companies *want* the grid to collapse? Do you really think they don’t care? It’s the delivery system that makes them the money. I tell you if they could fix it they would have by now.

Their hands are tied, by the government.

There isn’t a nation in the world that uses as much electricty as the US does. Europe, Fance, this past summer had HUDGE electrical problems. They are VERY regulated….

Guys, goverenment isn’t going to fix problems….look closely at history and what is happening today in countries where the government regulates everything.

2003-09-05 11:53 pm

If it takes 3 Oriental superpowers to take on M$…so Be it!

If it takes 3 oriental superpowers to make the confusing mess that is linux usable by the masses…so Be it!

At least they have the financial clout to meet the greedy Ba$tard$ on their own turf,something tiny Be Inc. never did,and something the geek-elite Linux community never seemed to care to do,Betcha the end result is very BeOS-like (that is if these characters did their homework and really want a usable alternative) Right now I sit typing this on a full blown Linux distro,knowing It’s sitting on top of a seemingly endless spiraling hodge-podged mass of subfolders and directories grown and slapped together with no apparent rhyme or reason,a confusing mess that even makes windows look streamlined,all the while missing the crispness and clarity of the file structure and layout of BeOS,or even QNX.Yep that’s what the world needs an OS with the security features

of Linux,but the concise layout and user-friendliness of BeOS!

2003-09-06 12:05 am

Okay, this is WAY off-topic, but I just have to reply because I feel concerned…

That has nothing to do with it – witness the fact that Ontario, whose “load” is comparable to Quebec’s, and who suffer from the blackout as well. The reason we didn’t get the blackout is simply that our power grid is not synchronized with that of the Eastern U.S. and Ontario. In any case, our modern and efficient power grid was all built through a government effort, and that was the original point.

I wouldn’t brag of our power grid, not at all… It failed twice in the last 20 years, depriving over 3M people of electricity right in the middle of winter. Okay, it was because of natural phenomenons (solar flares in 1989, freezing rain in 1997), but we still have our own problems… The failure because of solar flares is especially shameful IMO.

2003-09-06 12:21 am

As an Apple user who has just read the list of companies put out of business by Micros**t, I really hope the tide will turn and at least level the playing field for alternatives to the monopoly. Over the last year I have made a personal decision not to give them any of my money, ever. The success they now enjoy is entirely due to their appalling business prictices, so surely it’s only a matter of time before the number of enemies they have accumulated really start to have an impact on their market share, and business people wake up and see that there ARE alternatives to ms. Count me as one of them.

And by the way, I am not for the destruction of Micros**t (that would put me on their level) merely FAIR PLAY, a concept utterly alien to that company.

2003-09-06 12:24 am

It’s not about forcing everyone into using their future OS. I think they primarily want an OS they can rely on for THEIR OWN needs, i.e. governmental needs. And that’s not again free competition since they are likely to encourage people to use it, not to force them.

2003-09-06 12:26 am

Hmm. Well at first i was all for this since it would promote a competitive option to windows. Now I am bit suspicious.

the logic windows is insecure thus we must build our own OS is in fact flawed. There are a lot of linux distros out there that they can use. There are apple, Solaris, yellowtab and others. If asian characters are a problem then those can be updated but that is it.

I now assume that this is being used as an excuse to promote the entry of Japan, China, and Korea into a market from which they are largely absent (operating systems). That fact becomes ever more important when you consider that the OS is becomming prevalent in everything from cars to appliances to cell phones. these are some staples of production in two of these countries and the third aspires to join them.

Now this still not all bad. MS’ competitors need a hand. If it is executed properly it could still benefit everyone. Still, it could quickly grow into a monster.

2003-09-06 12:27 am

[i]Oh, you want to bring up socialized medicine…why do so many in Canada, come to the US? I lived there, I’ve seen it, and I know what people think about it…”<?i>

It’s it garbage statements like that – that is the reason why we hate you “american bastards”. At least you had the decency to get out of our country – dont fscking come back..

To get back on topic the asian goverments plan on developing their own open source operating system is yet another example why we Canadians must look west across the pacific for allies not to the barbarians to the south.

2003-09-06 12:33 am

“Oh no, you choose the worst possible example. GSM was a question of standard more than anything else. The europeans decided to impose some standards on the cell-phone industry, instead of letting things run amok like it did in North America.”

Actually linux baby i couldn’t have picked a better example. Europe’s collusion with a consortium is why Europe’s cellular carriers are in a jam now. They don’t want UMTS which has been force fed on them. There are far better technologies.

The same thing could happen in the OS land. Governments could start “standardizing” OS and applications and just kill the innovative spirit that exists in at least parts of the industry. The free market is close to solving the MS problem on its own via linux and perhaps apple/ibm. If the governments get into this we could go back to a place where innovation is kept out of the OS but by government funded consortiums instead of MS. By the way that is exactly what happened with UMTS and 3GPP. Innovation is kept out by a consoritium.

We are so close to a competitive OS market. This could hurt it if it become another gov/consortium thing.

2003-09-06 1:46 am

This has nothing to do with competitiveness.

Microsoft has FAILED at meeting the exceeding business needs of Asian customers. Microsoft can no longer redeem itself and Japanese customers want more transparency. The kind of transparency that Open Source gives and microsoft doesn’t without an NDA.

I live in Japan and understand the business climate here. This is not revenge in any way. It is also not about withholding money from US businesses. It is only about providing TRUE solutions to customers by TRUELY understanding the solutions you offer. Japan tolerated Microsoft too much and is now suffering because of it with virii, worms etc…

This is good news and I’ll be glad to give this new OS a go when it manifests it. I just hope it isn’t based on Linux and instead has BTron roots.

2003-09-06 2:00 am

The Asians just don’t get it. How dare they refuse to bow down and pay our Overlords of Redmond. Just who do they think they are? Don’t they know about all of the wonderful features of Licensing 6.0? I swear, some people.

2003-09-06 2:27 am

Monopoly sucks…

2003-09-06 2:29 am

They’ve already won anyway. They can’t just let it go at total domination, can they.

2003-09-06 2:32 am

“””Japanese media have reported that the government would spend 1 billion yen ($86 million) on the project and endorse an open-source forum Japan’s electronics makers set up.””””

buhaah, thats nothing, i doubt they could create a bug free OS with that amount of funding. Theres no way the asian governments can match Microsoft in their R&D funding, Also i read somewhere MS has around 42billion in cash reserves. Heck why not just buy the whole of japan and asia.

2003-09-06 3:08 am

… that governments don’t interfere with business. But, alas, America is welfare capitolism and therefore is free to interfere with business.

Is it bad to interfere with business? If they didn’t, think of the business empires based on Hitler’s germany using human skin for lampshades or human body fat for soap. In the end we must recognize that it doesn’t work the way Adam Smith envisioned – individual greed will not turn to common good. Ultimate greed and power is turning individuals and entire corporations into sick puppies.

America is finally recognizing the stench of moral decay in its corporate backyard. Witness Martha Stewart and WorldCom.

Microsoft always claims to champion innovation. Now a group of governments is dis-satisfied with the best that they have to offer, and have decided to build their own. Microsoft should be congratulating them. Or, Microsoft should be humbled from their arrogance and start working with these governments to build a better operating system.

Also, note that since the governments cannot purchase the desired quality of product from any vendor, they have decided to produce it in-house. This is a common practice performed by corporations as well as governments.

2003-09-06 3:50 am

As long as you don’t live in one of the countries funding this OS, really, I don’t see how anything bad can come of this. Either it will be a decent linux distro and make the market more interesting, or it won’t. 1 billion from taxes from just Japan isn’t that big a hit either so for these countries to do it, isn’t much of a risk for anyone. I hope they’re successful.

As far as MS bitching, they don’t have a leg to stand on. Govts have the right to develope software in house, and not as if they’re forcing it on the populace.

2003-09-06 5:22 am

Hey, a fellow videotroner…I agree that our grid is not impervious, the ice storm was quite a disaster though – I don’t think any grid would have withstood it. I had forgotten about the solar flares – I assume this is no longer an issue, though. But you can’t argue the fact that the nationalization of the Electrical Utility companies is what got Quebec into the modern era!

And, yeah, this is getting off-topic! 🙂

2003-09-06 6:40 am

Japan, China and South Korea are sovereign countries. They take whatever decisions they see fit. Microsoft, on the other hand, is only a corporation. The fact that they have the nerve to question such decisions simply shows how arrogant they are. What would be the reaction of the US government if Suse criticized the recent $ 500 million contract they awarded to Microsoft and another company ? How would Europeans feel if Boeing told them they shouldn’t spend money on the Airbus ?

To those who argue that governments shouldn’t interfere with the market, may I say that Microsoft primary purpose is to make money, not to make our lives better ? That market thing is a fiction invented by those who don’t talk ill of governments as long as they are the recipients of public funds.

Once again, a US company has no business meddling with foreign countries policies. This is paramount to subversion. Isn’t it a habit of big corporations (especially American and British) to finance rebellions abroad whenever their interests are at risk ?

2003-09-06 6:43 am

Ms should stop whining. Unless those governments create a software tax or something along those lines to restrict trade unfairly this is a non-issue. Sure the government market is lucrative, but I doubt just because the government uses a certain os that all the private business will switch over night.

btw Eugenia I agree, it would be sad if people let the government make all their choices for them. Hopefully this won’t turn into a case of that.

2003-09-06 6:59 am

Wow way to keep it non-political. I would just like to point out a fact to you about the Canadian medical system. Did you know that the top 15 to 20 percent of Canadians who graduate medical school move to the US to practice. Do you know why? They want to make money.

btw the Canadian part of the power grid that went down was regulated by the Canadian government so isn’t that part of the black out Canada’s fault? No of course not blame the US thats the easy thing to do.

2003-09-06 7:22 am

I’m impartial to this because I don’t think that Japan, China, and South Korea would agree on one software system. If these sovereign nations understood anything about creating a singular system (and the compromises that the process requires), they’d concentrate their efforts on one of the main distributions (redhat, suse, etc.). The fact that they don’t means that this is a business decision, not one based from security reasons. If it’s a business reason, then MS is completely in the right.

2003-09-06 7:32 am

The people who have posted comments similar to : “Asia is trying to ruin the US economy” should take a look at the world map. They’ll see two thing : USA isn’t the only country on Earth; Japan, China and South Korea are not states number 51, 52 and 53 of the Union. Beside that, OSNews isn’t restricted to Americans, that’s the beauty of the Internet.

Why do you guys feel bad when others basically say : “We have the capability to develop a certain product at home, we don’t have to pay for something made abroad” ? Is it so hard to accept that foreigners are competent enough to start developing their own operating system ? Are you so full of yourselves you can’t tolerate the fact that others are free to do whatever they want without consulting you ?

The remarks made by Microsoft don’t matter because Gates and Ballmer fail to understand one point : unlike poor countries that bow to pressure in order to attract foreign investors, neither Japan nor South Korea are destitute enough to be scared by big business antics (China is another case).

Somebody has decided to build something that will prevent them from wasting money. If a bunch of people located across the Pacific feel threatened, that’s too bad. After all, Microsoft never asked Asian countries permission before doing anything.

2003-09-06 8:22 am

I’ll start by saying I’ve only read the first 15 posts, and I’m astounded at the blind stupidity of some of the pro-Microsoft stuff.

So Japan, Korea and China are going to sponsor the development of an Open-Source Operating System where they can be sure there won’t be any back doors? Good on them. That’s part of what a government’s for – to protect its citizens.

It’s going to be an Open-Source Operating System? Brilliant, they share similar values to that of the West, where a software product developed with government aid must be put in the public domain. Except that Open Source isn’t Public Domain, of course.

2003-09-06 9:12 am

buhaah, thats nothing, i doubt they could create a bug free OS with that amount of funding.

Actually, the Japanese have one tendency with the things they make that completely escapes Microsoft; quality.

I have worked on software projects with Japanese companies for the last 10 years, and they will nitpick software until, as a developer, you just want to shoot them. If they do release an OS, my bet is that it will be a pretty solid one.

2003-09-06 10:36 am

Microsoft is two faced, acting like the US government doesn’t have a hand in their business.

2003-09-06 11:14 am

Hopefully they’ll do a good TRON based OS.

And I’l be eager to try it here, (once it gets english or norwegian menus that is)

M.

2003-09-06 12:28 pm

As far as market intervention goes, Microsoft is right, governments should not be subsidising their own products to match up to their competitors world wide.

But Microsoft is really talking nonsense. It’s not as if Microsoft couldn’t easily match that extra funding by diving in to their own coffers.

This won’t hurt Microsoft’s competitiveness in the least.

On the other hand, I can’t agree with the comments made by the officials either. Snapping your fingers and creating an OS without security vulnerabilities isn’t actually as easy as pouring money into a project.

There’s already several of Japanese Linux distros for a start, Vine (which is apparently already used in Japanese government offices), Plamo, and others like Debian have lots of Japanese software available for them also. If they were to choose a Linux base, one would hope that they don’t just create yet another typical distro.

The people talking about this to date aren’t exactly computer scientists either, so it’s hard to make much of it until more details come to hand.

2003-09-06 12:56 pm

Wow way to keep it non-political. I would just like to point out a fact to you about the Canadian medical system. Did you know that the top 15 to 20 percent of Canadians who graduate medical school move to the US to practice. Do you know why? They want to make money.

No, they want to make more money. That’s not the same thing. Our current system just can’t afford to pay them the same salary as americans do because it isn’t a private system.

btw the Canadian part of the power grid that went down was regulated by the Canadian government so isn’t that part of the black out Canada’s fault? No of course not blame the US thats the easy thing to do.

Well, the US govt at first blamed Canada entirely for the black out because they thought it was because of a problem in a Niagara Falls station in our side of the border. Is that really better? Governments never want the blame…

Anyway, this has *nothing* to do with the thread… so Eugenia, feel free to mod down my comment.

2003-09-06 1:39 pm

Remember BSD

developed at The University of California at Berkeley?

2003-09-06 3:43 pm

> Actually linux baby i couldn’t have picked a better

> example. Europe’s collusion with a consortium is why

> Europe’s cellular carriers are in a jam now. They don’t

> want UMTS which has been force fed on them. There are

> far better technologies.

The governments didn’t force the companies. The governments just provided licences, they didn’t force anyone. If the companies had thought they could come up with an alternative solution, they would have done so. If the Asian countries develop an OS, they won’t force private people to use it, but they will make it available for those who want it. Who knows, perhaps the OS is so good that people in other countries will use it as well (except U.S-americans of course, they are opposed to any non-US technology it seems)

BTW: GSM is used in a lot of countries outside Europe. GSM networks are present in 169 (2002, probably more now) countries around the world, and had almost 800 million subscribers globally in 2002. 76.9% of the total new subscribers selected GSM

Each country developed its own system, which was incompatible with everyone else’s in equipment and operation. This was an undesirable situation, because not only was the mobile equipment limited to operation within national boundaries, which in a unified Europe were increasingly unimportant, but there was a very limited market for each type of equipment, so economies of scale, and the subsequent savings, could not be realized.

The US government didn’t do anything to create a fair and balanced software market, by splitting up Microsoft. So as far as I’m concerned governments have already made the choice to support Microsoft. Nothing wrong with them supporting alternatives. This is known as freedom, but Microsoft doesn’t think its fair. Boohoo.

2003-09-06 5:32 pm

I would just like to point out a fact to you about the Canadian medical system. Did you know that the top 15 to 20 percent of Canadians who graduate medical school move to the US to practice. Do you know why? They want to make money.

Yeah, because health care costs are so high in the states – basically, you’re proving my point: we have affordable health care in Canada, while in the U.S. it costs you an arm if you break a leg.

I’m not sure about your statistics, though. Care to give a link?

Eugenia, please mod this post down as well as the one I’m replying to, as they have nothing to do with the thread anymore.

2003-09-06 8:54 pm

“Japan, the world’s second-largest economy, made a proposal at an Asian economic summit this week to build an inexpensive and trustworthy open-source operating system that would be based on a system such as Linux,”

So they’ve proposed to sponser an OS? This sounds like a good deal, I think more developers should be paid to work on OSS projects.

“could raise concerns over fair competition, Microsoft said Friday.”

I didnt see any statements anywhere that those govt’s would force their population or companies to use the OS. Therefore logically the market would determine the winner in this case. MS arguements are complete bunk!

“which can be copied and modified freely.”

Music to my ears. There is an elegance and beauty to OSS.

Perhaps the real issue MS has is that with a govt sponsored project led by “more than 100 software engineers from the three countries” the local population and corporations would be more willing to adopt such an open source OS. Well that and the fact that MS cant control the policy Foreign Govt’s yet…

“The Government Security Program, launched in January, aims to address concerns by governments over the reliability and security of Microsoft’s software by providing controlled access to source code”

Guess they dont care about the rest of us…

Agent 00111

2003-09-06 9:54 pm

Oh booo hoooo hoooo. Poor Microsoft is a whining and whimpering baby when they’re losing big business. Mr. Robertson is concerned about his job, not the choice of the people of Japan! I spit! I’m tired of those big, boo-hoo’ing babies whining about “what people want” when they can’t get it through their thick head that people want fair licensing, functional OS operations _without_ the risk of corporate or personal downtime because MS wouldn’t pay attention to the warnings of researchers…. I know I am not the only one who sees how immature and shocking some of the things Microsoft officials can say. I about fell out of my chair when I heard Balmer state that Linux is communism. Bite at me if you will, but communism was never a problem until we americans began glaring at it from afar, and teaching our children to do the same. The system is not a bad system, though I personally feel that a republic is a far more superior design. This is because there is choice in a republic, but it’s obviously not perfect, because now we have MS trying to force the concepts on _all_ of their customers. That is just wrong.

2003-09-06 10:01 pm

so here is the deal N.N. the problems in the cellular market are independent of my nationality.

Those problems are the function of collusion between industry and governments (mainly japanese and european but that does not matter that much). They (the vendors some of which are American) have purposely kept out lots of technology to protect themselves or keep out competitors. One of those is native IP switching (a must really for a data network). Now the resulting product (called UMTS) does not work, and has no business model. Operators who bid on licenses have to deploy it in most cases in europe nonetheless. Have to.

So what happened. The consumers are being cheated, the operators are being screwed and the entire industry is hurting. I don’t want that to happen to the OS industry too. The OS industry needs competition not a new master. And i don’t want a US master either i should point out. I want competition. Real competition.

2003-09-07 12:28 am

Let’s get off the electricity grid discussion. It’ll be a month before all the fingers are pointing to who’s to blame.

But, the early money is on it being the failure of First Energy having a sub-standard infrastructure.

When the reports are in, we can flog this topic ad nauseum.

2003-09-07 12:59 am

*** Off topic

“” Bite at me if you will, but communism was never a problem until we americans began glaring at it from afar, and teaching our children to do the same. “”

Foolishness, I suggest you read up on the histories of the various states that have tried/are still trying communism.

*** On topic

There is something about this I find curious. These nations haven’t enjoyed particularily good relations in the past, and yet are willing to collaborate on an OS that will no doubt be used by their various government agencies. Now it’s all very well the OS being open source and having a hundred developers or so, but how many programmers are they going to need to verify the code before putting it into use? “Is a Chinese guy trying to slip in a backdoor so they can read Japanese government documents?” for example. Their history, and the intended area of use (From what I see), points to a huge amount of validation work being performed separately by all three governments (Or agencies thereof) and let’s face it, even the bare Linux kernel is a more than a late night read with a cup of cocoa. All in all I think they’ll be spending more time/money having people check the code than actually developing it.

2003-09-07 8:13 am

If Japan, South Korea and China, which already has a large Linux userbase, starts this OS, it could possibly be in violations of WTO rules. If all these three countries were to invest into a private company that recieves no legal advantage over competitors, it would be a different story altogether.

Besides, Japan, South Korean and Chinese plans can also harm their private, some of them successful, Linux companies like Turbo and Red Flag.

2003-09-07 10:41 am

Eugenia:

“I was mainly indifferent about this whole idea at first, but if Microsoft is whining about it, it must be a Good Thing.”

So, are you telling us that you do not have a brain? That you take decisions and you analyze situations based on your foes/friends reactions instead of thinking the situation on your own and decide about it? Wow.

I happen to agree with Stumpy 100% (besides the fact that I find the whole thing not half amusing). The fact that MS doesn’t like the idea is a sure sign that it’s good for the global software climate, because it countervails MS’ factually and demonstrably selfish and harmful ways.

Once you have the answer, why waste your time looking for another solution?

Sagres:

“I just WISH that the EU would either get in on this project with them or do the same as them!”

Maybe linux zealots should have thought about that before the crap that they pulled last week about EU software patents.

The verb form of “government” is “governance”. And that’s EXACTLY what is going to fix problems, when issues of national safety/security are at hand. To bring this back on topic, the OS is becoming an essential component of infrastructure, and is therefore in good hands with the public sector. When it comes to safety and infrastructure, there is NO room for the compromises that are found in the private sector.

As for your other points, they’ve been well refuted by others.

Ryan:

the logic windows is insecure thus we must build our own OS is in fact flawed. There are a lot of linux distros out there that they can use.

That’s probably why they are strongly considering using Linux as a basis for this project. I, for one, am glad that politicians have decided to leave the technical juju to proper programmers, instead of legislating it to death.

genaldar:

btw the Canadian part of the power grid that went down was regulated by the Canadian government so isn’t that part of the black out Canada’s fault? No of course not blame the US thats the easy thing to do.

“Is a Chinese guy trying to slip in a backdoor so they can read Japanese government documents?” […] I think they’ll be spending more time/money having people check the code than actually developing it.

This is a Good Thing(tm). It will help Linux become even more secure and stable than it already is, with the additional benefit of lending credibility to OSS in government. How many Chinese programmers would have had access to MS’s source code without Linux biting MS in the ass? And who’s to guarantee that any MS back doors won’t simply be hidden in the code to which said Chinese programmers have no access?

ILBT [1]

Good Grief

———————

[1] I Love Being Trolled [2]

[2] Thanks to whoever coined this phrase — it works marvellously.

2003-09-07 12:45 pm

Talking about the danger of goverments being in charge of operating systems. I wonder why the U.S. government has not done anything about MS even though it is a convicted monopolists. It makes you wonder if MS might not be the OS of the US. Just a thought? I know we all worry about hidden back doors in proprietary code.

2003-09-07 12:51 pm

I don’t know much about asian languages but aren’t they pictorial. Might an operating system designed with this in mind be better for those culture?

2003-09-07 12:54 pm

Perhaps it wan’t reported in your media, but the governments and industry participants are not trying to displace Windows on the desktop. What they are trying is to have non-MS embedded OS based on Linux.

As a citizen in one of the countries involved, I don’t see anything wrong with such a move. Microsoft crying foul about unfair competition is laughable. If anything this is a remedial move. Japan foolishly pulled the plug on the TRON project fearing trade sanctions by the US at the time. I hope they won’t repeat the same mistake again.

OS diversity is as important as biodiversity.

2003-09-07 4:29 pm

“”This is a Good Thing(tm). It will help Linux become even more secure and stable than it already is, with the additional benefit of lending credibility to OSS in government. How many Chinese programmers would have had access to MS’s source code without Linux biting MS in the ass? And who’s to guarantee that any MS back doors won’t simply be hidden in the code to which said Chinese programmers have no access? “”

Perhaps you misinterpreted what I was saying. I wasn’t saying that whatever OS they create will be pathetic and they should go back to MS products, which is what you seem to be implying. My point was that there is going to have to be _more_ code verification work done than usual simply because the project is a collaborative effort. It’s actually possible those countries would get further/faster developing individual OS instead of trying to combine efforts like this. That and you presume it will be Linux (Maybe you know something I don’t *shrug*) based. Quite frankly I’ve got no more interest in seeing Linux usurp MS’s monopoly than seeing MS continue having it. The only future (In OS terms) that is as disturbing than continued MS dominance is one where another OS takes over that dominance. The OS market needs more depth of competition so personally I hope it is something new.

I see the possiblity of a good OS coming out of the project. Unfortunately I also see the possibility of a delayed, bloated mess of an OS (And surely we have enough of those) coming out of it due to the huge number of compromises that are going to have to be made along the way just to keep programming teams from 3 different nations happy. Management is going to be hell, I pity those folks.

2003-09-07 7:43 pm

What the US courts wouldn’t do–kick that putz Gates in the ass so hard he falls off the planet–the Asians are doing. Doing it with a positive note–creation.

2003-09-07 9:27 pm

if they have the skill?, let them do it. If someone could make a os thats free and microsoft gave them such hell, them i would want to see what they would do to another compant just as eager to make money as they do.

2003-09-07 10:47 pm

No not an OS based on boring Linux, please can’t we have something different, not BeOS, but then not XP, or MacOS, something readically different.

A revolutionary operating System, that is based on AI, the ability….

2003-09-08 2:50 am

Leave the radical development for the researchers. If a government is going to fork over dough to make an operating system, make something that is based on a proven technology.