God, Gays & Evangelicals

I was struck this week by the image of Lakewood Church Senior Pastor Joel Osteen praying for the success of Houston’s new mayor. Lakewood, the largest Christian church in North America, is a socially conservative, broadly evangelical faith community. Mayor Annise Parker is a lesbian.

Yet, there he was, his brow furrowed in what is now his trademark expression of sincerity, his hands raised into clenched fists of earnestness, thanking God for “raising her up” and praying for her to have wisdom in leading the city for this next political season.

In stark contrast is the portrait emerging of the role American evangelicals played in the “kill the homosexuals” legislation under consideration in Uganda. In March of last year, three evangelicals from northern California led a conference there to thousands of teachers, police officers, community leaders and national political figures explaining to them the heights and depths of the “gay agenda” and its goal to destroy the traditional family with sexual predation of children and promiscuity. One month later, the Anti-Homosexuality Bill of 2009 was introduced, which conference organizers played a role in drafting. The bill calls for the death penalty for all homosexuals.

Of course, Uganda and the United States are two very different places. And it’s largely unfair to judge Americans for what Ugandans do, given the vast differences in cultural and social mores around issues of family, tradition and sexuality.

But, it’s not totally unfair. Evangelical Christianity is the most robust form of Christianity on the planet, and its wildfire spread through Africa (and Asia and Latin America) in recent decades has come almost exclusively at the hands of American missionaries. American evangelicals working there have tremendous clout religiously, socially and politically. They are solely responsible for the posture and tone they set on a variety of issues, including the treatment of homosexuals. In some cultures, there is a slippery slope of difference between a sin and a crime against society deserving of death; responsible evangelicals are conscientiously aware of this and tailor their messaging accordingly.

Reverend Rick Warren, another global leader in evangelicalism whose organization has worked extensively in Uganda, has wised up to this to some extent. He has compared homosexuality to pedophilia, but he recently condemned the death penalty legislation as wrong and anti-Christian, and sent a pastoral letter (via video) to the Ugandan church with that message.

I was glad to see Pastor Osteen pray in support of Mayor Parker. His presence sent a message of respect, tolerance and humility – hugely beneficial values to people in all societies, including the American and Ugandan.

128 Responses

Thank you for the excellent and timely post Jill. As the war between the gay community and christianity escalates I have a feeling we will be seeing much more hate-filled rhetoric.

American evangelicals should hang their heads in shame that their own leaders have inspired legislation that is nothing short of genocidal. They have taken their “faith” to an all time low. Even though they try to deny any connection, don’t ever doubt the evangelicals would introduce similar legislation in this nation if they thought they could get away with it.

Don’t give Joel Osteen too much credit just yet either. If you remember last year Jay Baker, Jim and Tammy Faye Baker’s son who is gay tried to meet with Joel Osteen and Osteen refused to even meet with him. Also don’t forget Osteen is trying to purchase Compaq Center from the city after enjoying his sweetheart deal lease, so he needs Mayor Parker. THAT is the only reason he prayed for her, he needs her.

Homosexuals were on this Earth long before man invented christianity, we’ll be here long after it fades into history too.

CoolGayDad do you have proof of these charges or is this the typical “Your Side” of things?

Don’t give me your “Idea”, show me facts that Osteen didn’t meet with Bakers kid because their kid is gay and how much Osteen needs Parker……You’ve shown in the past that you can’t back up most all your claims…..And I don’t care who you daddy was….Facts CGD or STFU

Thanks for sharing your message. I too am praying for Mayor Parker. I am very grieved to see what role evangelicals may have played in this bill in Uganda. I appreciate your bringing this to my attention.

I don’t pay much attention to Osteen and his statements, so I have never heard him speak on emotionally-charged topics such as homosexuality, abortion, etc.

I think the key point to his presence at Parker’s inauguration is that he was advocating Parker’s ability to be the mayor of our city. I do not recall his invocation addressing Parker’s sexual orientation.

From what I’ve seen of Parker so far, she does not seem to be someone who wants to make her sexual orientation a defining part of her role as Mayor. Yes, her life partner will be by her side as have the husbands & wives of past mayors.

The Evangelicals have exported hate, just like the government exported torture. They have rendered their ‘hate’ rights to their third world counterparts, in order to achieve their agenda while saving face at home.

Besides, if any such laws were made here, they would not stand in the ‘liberal’ courts.

What Evangelicals forget most of all is that {and perhaps they are carnal minded} the gospel message is the central theme and the entire theme and message of the gospel is Jesus Christ. It’s all about him….the fact that they do not express that to the world is perhaps they don’t know that…Which would mean that their experience with Jesus is pretty shallow..They are distracted by outside forces the gay agenda and other actions in our society that they have lost focus on what we are really all about…

They need to repent because they are not representing Jesus to the world but their own fleshly nature which is offensive since they are offended in sinners being sinners. They are politically charged and have no idea what God wants them to do..I’ll leave a hint since the obtuse did not yet understand on the day of 9/11…..There are reportedly 1.3 to .6 billion Muslims in the world.

Jill, I do agree with carpenter that the 3 evangelicals in the New York Times article do seem to express deep concern about the legislation and if anything the legislation seems to be an unintended consequence of their participation in the conference (one person seems to suggest that they may have underestimated the Ugandan cultural views of homosexuality). You might want to soften that part of your blog or clarify that. Either way, I’m still very disappointed to see that this legislation was drafted.

I’m not so sure that CGD is so off the mark. I know several groups that would LOVE that kind of legislation in the U.S. Seriously, I can name them. The difference is that the rest of us (and the Constitution) wouldn’t stand for it.

In general, I am pretty against missionary work. I think it gives one side of the story to uneducated groups, and that it destroys local culture. Jill is correct when she mentions that the legislation in Uganda has a lot to do with how Christianity was presented in that part of the world. Just because those missionaries didn’t go over there and say “homosexuals are bad, you should kill them” doesn’t mean that isn’t how it was presented. You don’t have to SAY those things for them to be inferred. That type of thing wasn’t the right thing to do in the Conquistador era, and it’s not the right thing to do now.

Alice: Gender behavior and sexual behavior is a construct. That means that there is not biological connection to how we behave as men and women other than biological functions like making babies, giving birth to them, etc. Common discourse has told us that because it takes a man and a woman to make a baby, that clearly that is the only way to enjoy love or sex. Yet, if you look at history you will see differences. If you look at other non-Christian (and many times non-patriarchal) cultures, you will see a variety of expressions of gender and sex. More than that, the natural world is FULL of examples of animals who have different gender roles and engage in sex in ways that common discourse will tell you in not natural. Based on this information, I know many who would argue that many common ideals (the nuclear family, monogamy) is not “natural.”

Even Pastors can have double-standards. With millons of dollars at stake at his ministry, he may be trying to be politically correct and not paying attention to the religious aspect of it.

A comment to a post made earlier by an individual; the homosexuality is man-made act to satisfy his/her carnal desires, the individual forgets that man was created by the Supreme Creator Who sent the Divine instructions from day one ! warning us and providing instructions and even provided practical demonstration of what will happen if one follows these ways.

I respect Parker for her professional accomplishments but in my opinion she must not communicate or portray her sexual orientation but stick to the job at hand to make Houston prosper and flourish.

I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone– for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.

I’m assuming that means political leaders… Democrat and Republican… rather you agree with them or not.

I feel I must apologize to all for the comments of Mr. Osteen. He does NOT represent all evangelicals just b’cuz he leads a big church. He is giving us a very bad name because he wants to remain politically correct.

If you really want to get the full picture of the role these so-called “Christians” have played — go the Box Turtle Bulletin and watch them talk about the “Nuclear Bomb” they want to set off against gays.

In the NY Times, they express regret — but when they’re among friends the truth comes out.

Our world is, more and more, a global one, culturally and economically. No matter how tolerant our own society is, there is an increasing need to expand our scope of advocacy to an international level. Houston has many ties with Saudi Arabia, and that country’s record on human right should be taken into account when we talk about tolerance.

I believe in your message. Maybe we’re making progress, but we still have a long way to go.

Homosexuality doesn’t conform to the natural laws of evolution or creation. I’m not even a Christian. I am a Deist who believes in preserving natural behavior.

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Everything in nature has a purpose and a place. Homosexuality is exhibited in most creatures on Earth. In nature we will often see overgrowing populations soon find their source of food cut off. This inevitable reduces their population to the point where the source of food has had adequate time to regrow.

Homosexuality has a purpose too. Since homosexuality naturally prohibits procreation, nature uses it as a population control mechanism as well. The cycle of life can not just simply depend on overgrowing food resources as being the only deterrent against overpopulation. Homosexuality is a welcomed ingredient to the cycle of life.

If man is the creator if the bible than even such has a purpose. Most modern religions advocated procreation at inception. Although you can convert people, religion passes by bloodline more easily. The Old Testament, Koran, and New Testament all advocated heterosexuality as a way of spreading the faith exponentially. Attitudes on homosexuality up till the spread of Christianity and Islam were rather liberal.

There are so many other things man does against nature. One such is simply condemning homosexuality. Evangelicals go as far as to say homosexual “urges”. An “urge” can only be natural and can only have a place in the order of the universe. Condemning homosexuality is condemning nature and the cycle of life, which is the worst sin of all.

Carpenter – I’m well aware of the facts as they are being reported. And I don’t consider this post to be a “bashing” of evangelicals. Read further to my response to Joe….

Joe – Thanks for your perspective and your concern. I will try to clarify. The fact that the consequences were or may have been unintended doesn’t absolve them or anyone else of responsibility for the impact of their language and actions. Those who devote large portions of their ministry to characterizing homosexuals as dangerous, predatory and deserving of AIDS as punishment from God (which these three do, especially Scott Lively) and then go spread that message within a cultural context with no stable rule of law or constitutional tradition of respect for basic human rights, cannot in good faith feign surprise and horror when their message is taken to justify violence against homosexuals. Simply put, they were irresponsible with their language and posturing, and the consequences are bad. I get that they’re sorry (I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt – I’ve listened to audio and watched videos of their material before……it’s hard to stomach, and I’m not sure about the integrity of their sorrow). But, they should have thought about that before they crafted their message the way they did. There are many other RESPONSIBLE evangelicals doing admirable work in all parts of Uganda, throughout Africa and the world dealing with poverty, health, illiteracy and corruption in a way that doesn’t result in the the death of innocent people. I’m simply saying people in positions of religious leadership, esp in a global context, need to be responsible and conscientious about their message.

Cool Gay Dad – Welcome to the NFL. Love to have you in the game, but if you don’t want to get hit, stay off the field. (a football metaphor in honor of tonight’s Texas/Alabama game).

that homosexuality or lesbianism are even a issue in politics is the real issue of my disgust.Sexuality is sexuality it belongs in the bedroom,regardless of the nature of the sex.

I didn’t ask the mayors sexual preference and I don’t care!That she was elected whether in spite of or because of is a shame,I would hope it is because of her competence to do a job and sex wont play a role in the administration of her duties and that further sensationalism of sexuality wont distract from those duties or influence the public trust.

I Don’t know the reason the senior pastor at lakewood singled out the mayor for prayer,perhaps just to assure his flock of gods continuing commitment,perhaps as expressed to garnish favor in his business dealings,It is neither here nor there, those folks curry favor to politicians all the time and it is in the best interest to their flock to continue to seek favor thru continued support in most cases.

Maybe he could get together with the rest of those old evangelicals and use their organization to stop the hate.

I understand BG will die soon and a new era may be born with a more tolerant form of leadership born from the still smoldering asses of the past ruins that were built on hate and fear.

But as this blogs shows it only takes a few individuals to make the whole outhouse stink real bad,the whole nation may be forced to pay retribution in blood down the road as a result of those few ill mannered outspoken evangelicals.

Homosexuality doesn’t conform to the natural laws of evolution or creation. I’m not even a Christian. I am a Deist who believes in preserving natural behavior.

Obviously you are a deist who has never bothered to follow the fundamental command of that religion – to study nature! (I speak as a fellow deist.) There are numerous examples of homosexuality in nature, from the well-known dolphins and bonobos to the less widely known spiders and fish. In humans, homosexuality may have evolved as a method for conserving resources; alternatively, it may be a side-effect of intelligence.

The Christers who went to Uganda are either very, very stupid (entirely possible), or they knew full well what they were doing. Thousands of people have died brutal deaths at the hands of dictators in Uganda over the years, and yet they’re surprised by this anti-gay law they passed? Here’s a hint, Christians: before you go into a foreign culture and start spreading your nonsense, take the time to learn a little bit about that culture first.

The two greatest commandments are to love the Lord God with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself. As Christians we are not told to condemn. We are told to bring the good news of Jesus Christ to the world. We are also not told to hate but to love. We are also told to judge others in the way we want to be judged. We are also told to pray for one another. The message of Jesus Christ is for everyone in every state of life. I have been amazed by the reaction of Christians and non-Christians alike to this simple prayer. The prayer was for the leadership of the mayor, the blessing of the city and the people within it. Pastor Osteen is simply fulfilling the instructions of Jesus Christ.

Here is food for thought. The bible states that once you are “saved” the only way to go to hell is to turn away from God, or turn others away from God. Many evangelical churches have made the cornerstone of their church demonizing homosexuals, and homosexuals know this. To God, sin is sin, he doesn’t distinguish between a simple lie, stealing, premarital sex, homosexual sex, etc, none is greater than the other and all equal in God’s eyes.

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That being said, a homosexual who accepts God as his/her savior, and is saved, will go to heaven just as any other Christian, because we are all imperfect and we all sin. This is a fact, if you are a Christian. Why do churches spend so much time focusing on one sin alone, homosexuality, which represents less than 5% of the population. Why not focus on divorcees? Because this would drive divorced people out of the church, and the churches would lose revenue. Instead, they demonize and make homosexuals unwelcome in the church, and they do not reach out to homosexuals to bring them into their fold. They claim that a homosexual can not be a Christian because of their sin, then if that is the case than 99% of Christians lose their standings for the sins they commit every day also. I believe its these Evangelical Christians, the ones who focus on demonizing homosexuals, they are the ones turning others away from God, and when their times comes, they will have to answer for that.

The three Californians were simply additional marchers to Uganda. They were preceded by American Congressmen famous for their Washington hangout and being evangelicals who encouraged throwing away condums and abstinence only AIDs prevention programs, as well as homophobia.

Jill is correct to praise a popular preacher who wishes our new mayor success (with no mention of sexual matters).

It will be lots of Sundays to convince some believers that homosexuality is indeed part of nature, not a choice, and not “rehabilitatable”. After all, it appeared in the bible in what they percieve was the undisputed word of God. The history of the bible’s coming into print with multiple editing for political and other purposes doesn’t phase these folks a bit.

All the handwashing and denials in the world won’t remove the guilt from the three (and all the unnamed co-conspirators)

It was really nice to see Joel Osteen praying for the success of Mayor Parker. However, this is the same man that said gays aren’t God’s best. Not exactly a raving endorsement is it?

As Mike indicated above (with his link to Box Turtle Bulletin), the three so-called evangelists knew exactly what they were doing. They continue to put forth lies to demonize gay people. Then feign shock and remorse when the Ugandans actually act out on those lies.

Just an FYI, Jay Bakker isn’t gay. Get your $^*@ straight before you post it.

I happen to have a lot in common with Bakker, we both were ostracized by our respective churches after scandal. My family’s scandal had nothing to do with breaking the law, but at the age of 12-13 years old, Steve Riggle’s Grace Community Church, which my family help start, tossed us out like garbage. Just about everyone there pretty much told us to take a hike, in so many words.

If it wasn’t already bad enough that the “scandal” was causing my folks to split, now the only life I had known, all my friends, my community, support system and ultimately my faith was taken away from me. The entire church turned their back on my family.

I know, sounds very Christian like, eh?

Through the years I’ve seen this happen to one family after another at Grace Community Church. Great work Riggle, I hope all of your cars, houses and jet setting life style is worth it.

As for me, all these years later, I have no faith in these evangelicals; they’re the most judgmental people on earth. They’re all just a bunch of do-gooders who will find themselves on the losing end once their secrets come out. It’s all just a matter of time.

I am thankful for one thing that Grace did for me, it made me step out of the pack and think for myself. Something I wish more folks would do.

Praying for our leaders, no matter what their sins are, is nothing more than praying for our leaders to lead effectively. Just because a prayer is said asking God to give guidance to those leaders is in no way endorsing what life they choose to live privately. This is a completely foolish connection to make, that you can only pray for people who abide by God’s instruction. I pray for Iran’s leadership to come to their senses and be productive leaders to their people and good partners to the world, but that sure doesn’t mean I think they are following God’s will. I think you are trying to make something out of nothing. Not that I hold much respect for Joel or anything.

Spitz: You said “…An “urge” can only be natural and can only have a place in the order of the universe. ”

You had me on your side til you said that. Because if that is true, then pedophilia and murder and rape are all “natural” as well. And maybe at the most basic level, they are. But even without religion involved, wouldn’t you agree that rape, murder and pedophilia are counter productive to a civilized society and should be avoided if possible?

I’m not saying homosexuality fits in with those. Not at all, and I would never think that, much less say it. What I’m saying is that you weakened your argument with that statement.

As long as human society exists, the argument will go on. What’s the argument? “I’m right and you’re wrong, so shut up.”

Hi, Jill…thanks for posting the story about the ridiculous situation in Uganda. I was writing a friend who was active in P-FLAG (Parents, Families & Friends of Lesbians and Gays) in Houston years ago about it, and we both agree it’s scary. I further agree with another post that said that it’s hard to believe folks like Warren can feign mortified surprise now that their words and sentiments have been adapted to the degree they have; it may well be a test balloon to see how far they can go with their bullying. (Warren’s probably never even set foot in a gay bookstore, coffee house or church.) They and their ilk wanted gays gone; they’re about to get it – at least over there. I can only hope the U.S. is intelligent and doesn’t even think of following suit – it would be an unbelievable disgrace on top of everything else we’ve done the last ten years.

Your statement about evangelical Christianity being the most “robust” expression of Christianity in America can be debated, though – it depends on what you mean by “robust”. If by “robust”, the tendency to be vocal and apt to act politically are meant, then yes, I’d cede that point. But if it’s meant to mean truly charitable behavior – and to everyone, not just the ones in the country club that may be their own houses of worship – then I’d contest it.

I think there are an increasing number of non-evangelicals in America whose upbeat, positive behavior is more “Christian” than that of many evangelicals. And one of the reasons attendance at some churches has fallen is because the newest generation of adults has seen the hypocrisy over and over. They’re not buying it. And I’m glad they’re questioning.

To me, evangelicals are some of the angriest people in this country. They don’t want mulitculturalism, they don’t want religious plurality, and they don’t want (true) intellectual freedom. And while there may be some that do exhibit the virtues of kindness, patience and even generosity, there aren’t nearly enough (they’re certainly not in a two-thirds majority). I would say Joel Osteen and Lakewood are a notable exception (and I’m glad you mentioned them as well), but I don’t know that I would characterize Lakewood as necessarily “evangelical” or even “fundamentalist” (at least in the political sense the news media tend to use those terms). I think a lot of other churches could learn something from Joel & company, though.

Speaking of Mayor Parker and the role of religion, why is any comment about Mayor Parker being a Wiccan, immediately deleted?

Wiccans are Satanists. The Wiccan religion is nature based. It is recognized as a religion by the US Military and the Chaplain Corp is trained in its beliefs.

It has more validity then Scientologists and the alien war lord Xenu.

And since the chroicle as repeatedly emphasised Mayor Parker’s sexual orientation (which has nothing to do with her qualifications to be mayor) and the chronicle routinely mentions other public figures’s suspected or known religious beliefs, why the exclusion of Mayor Parker’s religion?

I, as a taxpayer, have as much right to know about what Mayor Parker does in her worship of her gods, as I do in knowing what she does in the privacy of her bedroom.

So either ban both comments (orientation and religion) or allow discussion of both topics.

I really enjoy reading a lot of these thoughtful posts. I have come to the conclusion that these so called “Evangelicals” do not truly believe that their “God” knows what he is doing. I was taught to believe that God is all knowing, the Master, the All Mighty. God does not make mistakes. So when I read posts that state that maybe homosexuality is God’s way of controlling population, food resources, etc.,I have to admit, God really knows what he is doing.

The funny thing is, is this is the first I have heard, seen, or read about this. If there was no pre-arranged press release, this could be a genuine attempt at tolerance. Good for Olsteen. He is a breath of fresh air, in a world of “doom and gloom” religion. I have a hard time buying into the hypocrisy of mainstream religion. They preach about doing the right thing, then encourage people to break the law. (specifically, immigration). Then you have those patrons who oppose abortion, then turn around and vote Democrat???? Or, those who believe abortion is wrong, then turn around and champion the death penalty???? Then the constant scandals breaking within and around all religious factions.

It’s disturbing. I am a believer, but not a sheep. I’ll keep it non-denom, thank you….My relationship is between myself and my maker. Not what another man/woman says it should be. It is not my job to judge/condemn someone because of their sexual prefrences, etc, etc,,,,

Dill’s question is a very interesting one: why do churches focus on this one sin with such energy and fervor? It’s tempting to conclude that there is a terror involved in confronting “the Other”—something uncomfortable and hard to understand. And of course there is also the fact that it involves sexuality, which still seems to be the one human area that gives us all the jitters.

These so-called “progressives” are quick to try and blame evangelicals in with the anti-homosexual legislation that has been PROPOSED in Uganda, yet they never recognize the fact the these groups have done more for those who suffer from HIV than all of their liberal heroes. That it truly what Jesus would have done.

I am tired of people that come on these forums and utterly bold face lie. Ms. Parker is no Wiccan, and even if she was(which she isn’t) why would it matter to you? Wouldn’t the freedom of Religion that you all supposedly champion also apply to her or only those of the Christian faith as it seems to these days? Isn’t that faith supposed to be about the choice of belief anyway and not about forcing it on people? Why is it so important for people to make these slanderous claims? Could it possibly be because some people will go to any new low to slam someone who is not a cookie cut out of what you have decided is good and wholesome. When you have to resort to lies, misinformation, and slander to demean someone to this extent then you have some serious issues that are not inline with the faith you claim to hold so very dear. People of Faith should start to really practice what they preach entirely or reread the Bible they hold up so high.

People of the Christian faith seem to have no problem with altering that faiths written word that applies to their lives, choices and freedoms. They do however have a very large issue with being fair minded enough to apply that same standard to the people of the GLBT community. I mean out of the book of 31000 passages 6 are said to be about GLBT people. 6 passages people! If this issue was the one sin that was so damning wouldn’t it have more about it? Why does Jesus himself never address it? (And I agree with another poster about the reasons for those even being included in the first place) How many other passages, rules, laws, sins are seen to be outdated and wrong by today’s standards? Pages and pages and pages, 1000’s of passages just tossed…. Why is that exactly and how can be justified if the word of God is the same yesterday, today and forever? Either all the word applies to everyone totally or it doesn’t. Or if you are making adjustments that only apply to your life or people just like you then you are neither being fair or treating your life to the standards that you are trying to force others to live by.

If you apply your own personal prejudices add in a scriptural basis minus your selective adjustments to scripture you have a recipe for disaster, and one that you are singling out to a group of people that you must know nothing about really. Do any of you really think that anyone would really choose to be despised to the extent that the GLBT people are if they had any other choice? GLBT would have to be the biggest gluttons for punishment in the history of mankind for anyone to actually believe that. The level that GLBT are discriminated against in our society has no peers. Our Rules of Law and the rules of our country do not even apply to them. It says all men are created equal not just the straight ones. They seem to be the last group of people that it is ok to treat less than. Why is that exactly? And how can any Christian apply Christs message to the GLBT people and act the way they do? The second greatest commandment is to love/treat your neighbor as you love/treat yourself. Apply that commandment to the GLBT community for a change or return to the dark ages and all the commandments/ standards/rules/laws/sins/restrictions of the old and new testaments that apply to your own life.

If you are unwilling to allow men to be superior in all things, for men to control all areas and decisions of your life if you are female, do not want to return to the times of slavery, return to the punishments outlined clearly in the bible, outlaw or completely restrict divorce or start stoning adulterers and unvirgin brides etc etc etc then you really are not trying to live by the scripture and the laws of the Bible. What you are doing to choosing to misrepresent yourselves, your faith and your real reasons for your continued unequal treatment of the other Children of God that you have decided or someone else told you was less than you and unworthy of the rights and privileges that you yourself enjoy daily.

The hypocritical ideology of the Christian Faith is the reason that you are loosing membership left and right in almost every single denomination. People are tired of this “do as I say not as I do” attitude that you have. You should all remember the parable of the Self Righteous because frankly when you have such a very large plank in your own collective eyes you shouldn’t be worried about the speck in the GLBT peoples. You seem to be so worried about your neighbors house when yours has such a bad foundation. One day soon the amount of people that you have turned from Christ message because you claim to have the Power and Authority to lock the gates into heaven you will be answering for and sadly I truly think that place you claim the GLBT people are going is instead going to be full with all of you. The Mockery that the faithful have become and the distortion of the Message is totally appalling. “For whatever you have done to the very least of you, you have done unto me” & “Forgive them Father for they know not what they do”-Jesus Christ. Amen

re: Osteen, “his trademark expression of sincerity,” — that nailed it for me

but he is head and shoulders (and more) above those loosers that were protesting Parker’s swearing in with signs that said things like “God hates gays”.

on the other hand, those loosers have realized something the rest of us have not: you can claim anything you want about God’s likes and dislikes because you will never be contradicted by the man himself.

As for your comment about only 6 passages dealing with GLBTs. How many passages are about child molestation? If the passage count is an indication of the significances of a sin, then molesting children would not be that bad.

And I am not equating homosexuality with sexual abuse of children.

By the way, I supported Parker over Locke. I also have posted that actually the Bible does not condemn women having sex with women. It merely calls it un-natural (so is flying and computers). Only men having sex with men as with a woman is condemned.

So Mayor Parker’s sexual practice do not matter to me.

What matters is that she promised to be transparent and inclusive and her FIRST act was secrecy and exclusing the people and the press.

Now I have to do take down the Druid symbol (the tree) in my living room which was decorated Dec 21.

A pastor once told me that marriage used to be between two men. The groom and the bride’s father. Then marriage became between a man and several men and women. The groom and the bride’s family. Finally marriage became between a man and woman, rather based on acceptance but based on love.

Even in after the rise of Christianity, marriage has evolved from a union between two men into a union between a man and a woman. Marriage has never been a solid idea, rather something fluid that has changed with time.

It is also worth to note that we mustn’t demonize “Christianity”. This story was told to me by a pastor. There are a handful of Christian denominations and churches that support gay marriage. Aren’t you denying their religious freedom too?

Dill’s question is a very interesting one: why do churches focus on this one sin with such energy and fervor? It’s tempting to conclude that there is a terror involved in confronting “the Other”—something uncomfortable and hard to understand. And of course there is also the fact that it involves sexuality, which still seems to be the one human area that gives us all the jitters.

Posted by: Elizabeth

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Ask the alter boys about “jitters”…..

You would think that the Catholic Clergy would be cool with homosexuality by now.

Integration and Interracial Marriage was an assault on Traditional Values.

Marriage Equality/Equal Rights is an assault on Traditional Values.

In each Case they have used Biblical reasoning to stop these things from happening. Passages were/are read and arguments given for the importance of each of these things to stand the way we as a Nation have Traditionally viewed them. The destruction of Society and Life as we know it, and the moral decay of our Nation was/is threatened were/is used in each of these cases. Nobody really wants to admit the similarities but when you lay the arguments down they are basically the exact same. Maybe different scriptures were used but they came from the same book the Bible.

We look back at the first two of these issues as ridiculous and embarrassing to the Nation but somehow most people have no problem with the last one standing as is. Could the reason maybe be that the last one has no significant impact on each of our daily lives? We all know that it doesn’t really, but we keep saying that it will. Because for some reason it seems that the more we repeat something we think that will make it reality. It doesn’t really effect us so we just keep on keeping on the way it has always been because history tells us that keeping things the same is always the correct way to go about things. Right? Hmmmm.

Each of us in this great Country have the Unalienable Right of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. Unalienable means incapable of being alienated, surrendered, or transferred. Life is living as you choose to live it as long as you are law abiding. Liberty means Freedom. And the Pursuit of Happiness means something different for all of us individually but the emotion Happiness is the same for all of us. Since Gay People do have not the right to life as wish to live it, nor the freedom to marry who they chose, or the ability to achieve their own happiness by getting a legal Civil Marriage how are they not being discriminated against? How exactly are they equal to anyone else in this Country? If you or I are allowed to marry the legally aged person we chose but they are not then they are not Free, they are not Equal and they are not being given their Rights as Citizens to this Country.

They pay the same taxes, more really since they can’t get our tax breaks, they can’t get access to each others Social Security and the countless other benefits and Civil Unions do not allow access to numerous Federal Programs. So basically they are paying into all these programs and denied the benefits when they try to access them. When people say that Civil Unions are the same thing it is untrue. They can’t get Health Care coverage for their partners because some companies do not recognize Civil Unions. Some people say that because Gay people are usually highly educated and make more money the reason that the Federal Government is dragging their feet on this is because of the money they collect and never have to pay out. Makes one wonder doesn’t it….

If I/we have access to the benefits that any US Citizen gets when legally Married to the man/woman of our choice but my law abiding Gay neighbors do not because they will not live their life as I/we think that they should then are they free? At what point does my Right of Religious Beliefs get to dictate their Rights? At what point does my Rights of Belief supersede their Constitutional Rights? What about Rights of the Faiths that believe differently then I do about this issue? Does that not inhibit their own Rights of Religion? How would I feel to have another Religious belief be forced on me and those beliefs be allowed to dictate my freedoms and options?

Most of the answers to those questions would make me wonder what Country I was living in because the answer would diffidently not be the USA. And kind of sounds like some of the reasons we are at war with another Faith overseas right now. I think that the Gay Citizens of this Country probably would agree. When put in that context I have to say that I would not feel like I was anything other then a Second Class Citizen. And it is frightening to me that we are having this conversation or voting on their rights of equal protection and equal access in this day and age.

Who’s Rights go up on the block next? What type of trend are we setting that we are here now talking about one groups rights overriding another groups. Having votes and courts decide who gets the law applied fairly and who doesn’t. Once this gets to the Supreme Court and they finally settle this for all time will Religious Rights be next since this is the entire basis of these arguments? What will happen when its our rights on the line? Will the Gays show us then the mercy and understanding that we have showed them for all these long years? What about the growing numbers of the nonreligious people? Will they forget or be understanding? Somehow I really seriously doubt it. Who will we be blaming when this all comes full circle? Morals, Values, Traditions are totally elective and that is the way they should stay. If they aren’t then who makes the call and what Religious Belief is the right one? Catholic? Pentecostal? Baptists? The list goes on and on, but we do know for sure that it can’t possibly be Islam right? Is there really a big difference when freedom of choice is removed?

That is really some Scary stuff to think about and talk about a real slippery slope.

Ansar, I could not care less what your fictional god or religion say. There are enough gay people born on this Earth every day to prove you wrong

____________________ THE ABOVE QUOTE IS SO STUPID.

NO ONE IS BORN QUEER, (now called gay), they make the choice in life. So you cannot blame God for being queer. They are not minorites, but a sick way of life chosen by them, as God made man with a free will.

Personally, hope all queers get aids and die off soon. They set a poor example to our children

As far as Olsteen, he is in the Jesus business, pure and simple. lives like a king, with a fleet of jets and millions in the bank he skims off the take each week. Do not think he will open the doors to his home for homeless this freezing weekend. shame on him

ON THE BRIGHT SIDE, everyone dies, and will meet their maker then and will have to explain, and no excuse will be accepted, as God knows all.

The reason the Church will not admit that it is wrong about Homosexuals is because it would open the door to what else they have been wrong about. It would raise questions about why they have remained silent and allowed all this nonsense to continue down through the ages. They will never admit to the altering of the Scriptures to control the masses because the masses keeps paying them to do it. As long as they get to hold salvation hostage or entry by the means of a checkbook they are free and clear to say whatever they want. The bottom line seems to be the big issue and nobody wants to go broke, certainly not the Catholic Church, look how they hide the money from all those child abuse victims.

I have read that the original passages only applied to pederasty(forced sex between grown men and young boys) and sexual acts in rituals done in temple. Neither of those things have anything at all in common with consenting adults who enter into long term monogamous relationship.

Truly I am not sure why much of the bible is not questioned considering that a council of men got together to decide/alter/compromise on what made it in. They did however agree completely how superior they were to women as clearly outlined in the Scriptures. Isn’t that the basis for the restrictions still used for the Priesthood against women? What was discarded is a serious question for me personally. Then when you add in the decisions upon which translation was excepted and the amounts of updates and changes done over the ages I would bet that the Book would be an utter shock to Jesus himself. He, I’m sure, would be just as shocked to learn of all the horrors that his words have inspired or been given allowance for. Gandhi said it best “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

I have read the article including many of the comments. I hold two Bachelor’s degrees in Psychology and Religion, and two Master’s degrees in Original Languages and Business Adm. I’m in 2004 Who’s Who in Junior Colleges. I’m a member of two honor socieites and do not have a GPA of less than 3.75. I say this to prefix that I am not a dummy.

With that said I have an opinion on this subject matter. If I saw someone about to go into a burning house I would do all I could to stop them. I would not care if it was politically incorrect or inconvienced them. The two original languages I am trained in are Hebrew and Greek which I can read, write and translate in. Paul of Taurus wrote in Romans 13 that we should pray for our leader because no one rules without God’s permission. I support the praying for guidance for Houston’s mayor.

Second, the same Paul of Tarsas wrote in Romans 1 (the same book mentioned above) that no one who actively practices homosexuality will live in Heaven and will spend ETERNITY separated from God in a state of misery. I am not depending on some elses translation but my own training in translationing Koine Greek.

If I am willing to pray for the mayor based on Paul’s instruction I must also declare, whether my society likes it or not, that unless she repents (GREEK-methnoieo which means to have a change of thought) and turn from her life of homosexuality (GREEK-porniea which mneans extremely wicked) she will spend ETERNITY in torment.

I’m sorry but I must state the truth as it is….Not in hate but in agape love for the lost including the mayor.

The difference between sexual crimes against children and consenting sexual encounter between adults should be clear to anyone from today’s standards. It is not and you can read or hear that from a numerous amounts of post online. Like your own. It doesn’t say anywhere that raping children is a sin. Since it doesn’t does that mean it is ok? Does that mean that Child Molesters get a free pass into heaven? But I will enlighten you anyway in regards to scripture and Societies views during Biblical times and the reason that somethings are mentioned and why others are not.

There was no such thing as Child Molestation in the Bible because children were property to be done with as the men in the family decided. So were slaves. Women were only sexual objects and used for the mans gratification, child baring/child raising or labor. One reason why married women were never raped by their husbands. Women, Wives and children could be bought, sold, discarded, or used sexually without issue. Women had no legal claim to children they were the property of the husband. If a man outside the family did rape a married woman or a female child the father was paid for it in cash or kind and for any children that resulted from it if he refused to marry the pregnant child but that was between the two men to settle.

Lesbianism was viewed as unnatural because one of the women was raising herself into a mans place and they were removing a man from the act to replace him with themselves. It was insulting to the men. So it was unnatural for two women to be intimate.

Homosexual Men were viewed unnatural in two ways. One was insulting himself for being lowered to a women place. The other was insulting that man by treating him as a mere woman. It was common practice to rape the loosing men after a battle to insult them and treat them like women. It was considered the worse insult possible during those times to be viewed/used as a woman if you were a man.

One only needs to study the History of the Times to find out these things. It is available to anyone who wants to look into it from a historical perspective and not blindly except the words spoken from a pulpit by someone who as the anterior motives of the Self Righteous and Superior belief in their own Morality.

I have no problem with Wiccans at all. They have the freedom to believe and practice their chosen system however they see it as long as they are not breaking any laws or hurting anyone. That is one of the things that make this country great. Do I agree with them? No, but it is against my faith to judge them or condemn them.

For you to even suggest that Annise had a some wiccan gathering during her private party is totally false regardless of what you are implying. I was not there but my sister was and she has known Annise for many years. I would again question your motives for trying to slander her on this forum under an alias.

Interesting that you also claim to not equate Homosexuals with Pedophiles but you do use them in the same sentence and compare them to the judgment of sin, typical really. Had you even tried to see the point of holding 6 passages as forever unchanging or on some stone tablet while all the passages before and after those 6 are tossed or forgotten and ignored I would waste more time in correspondence with you. But you didn’t did you? What you tried to imply was that regardless of the amount of times it is mentioned it is still mentioned so it is important. Funny again that only those few are that important to most people but all others mentioned countless times are not. Also interesting that you didn’t even know that Pedophilia is not even in there and not considered a sin. Thanks for helping to make my point….

I do know one thing and that is that the christian men that went to Uganda, did not preach hate, or killing of homosexuals. What they did preach was that it is a sin and that it is not acceptable to God, just like other sins, such as murder, adultry, etc. God loves the sinner, but hates the sin. The problem is that homosexuals have flaunted their sin in front of everyone and through various means are and continue to push for laws that make that sin acceptable through force. Hollywood has done the same thing with adultry and pre-marital sex which is a sin in God’s eyes per the Bible.

what nerve wrote’ “I have read that the original passages only applied to pederasty(forced sex between grown men and young boys) and sexual acts in rituals done in temple. Neither of those things have anything at all in common with consenting adults who enter into long term monogamous relationship.”

WWJ Really Do? wrote’ “For you to even suggest that Annise had a some wiccan gathering during her private party is totally false regardless of what you are implying. I was not there but my sister was and she has known Annise for many years. I would again question your motives for trying to slander her on this forum under an alias.”

As for my writing under an alias, I checked the White Pages of the phone book and called directory assistance. Are you listed under “Do” or “Really Do” or maybe “WWJ”?

Or are YOU (and most others) also writing under an alias? What was that about judging others when you yourself are guilty of the same thing?

So in your heresay information (your sister knows Parker) is that sufficient to call another person a liar?

Okay, let us assume for a moment that your sister REALLY knows Mayor Parker sufficient enough to know her religious beliefs. Pray tell, if Mayor Parker is not a Wiccan, what church does your sister believe Parker is a member of?

Now if your sister is such pals with Mayor Parker, maybe she knows about the Mannheim Germany incident and why the family left Germany before the normal 3 year tour with the American Red Cross. Maybe your sister can shed light on Mayor Parker’s customary meeting with the German Consulate here in Houston.

Maybe your sister can explain why the press was excluded from the secret swearing in when it would not have cost a dime for a camera crew to cover it? Especially, since Mayor Parker promised transparency and inclusiveness.

As for your not knowing the Bible and child molestation. Didn’t Jesus the Christ say something about a millstone around the neck and being tossed into the deepest sea being better than being a child molester? Or is that not applicable to child molesters?

“Homosexuals were on this Earth long before man invented christianity, we’ll be here long after it fades into history too.”

CGD – You were the first to post and the first to take a shot at Christians. Obviously I don’t agree with you, but I respect your right to choose to be wrong. Why take shots at Christians just because you don’t believe the same as we do. It’s jerks like you that give all homosexuals that rep. You don’t have to believe what I believe, but you don’t have the right to take shots at my God, the creator of all that is, that was, and that will ever be. My God gave you the ability choose sides, you have cleary chosen your path and one day you will account for those decisions. I’m not judging, just sayin. By the way, I’ll account for my actions as well. I will be found guilty, but redeemed by the blood of Jesus. You can make the same choice, and I hope you do. IF YOU WANT acceptance by all, be accepting of all and get that chip off your shoulder.

NO ONE IS BORN QUEER, (now called gay), they make the choice in life. So you cannot blame God for being queer. They are not minorites, but a sick way of life chosen by them, as God made man with a free will.

Personally, hope all queers get aids and die off soon. They set a poor example to our children

ON THE BRIGHT SIDE, everyone dies, and will meet their maker then and will have to explain, and no excuse will be accepted, as God knows all.

****************

I agree with you on the all who die will meet their maker and have to explain their actions, thoughts and behaviors. You are going to have some explaining to do for your hatred of god’s children. I am pretty sure that wishing death on someone is not going to be well received.

How can you say that no one is born gay? Were you born heterosexual or did you choose to be? Did you experiment with homosexuality and then decide it was because you had turned your back on god? Gay people will tell you that they are born gay. Deny it if you like but wouldn’t they know better that you?

Even the Catholic church and other religious groups now admit that being gay is likely an inherent trait. You are losing that battle.

My understanding of Christianity is that our Christian God does not look too kindly on hatred.

Oh and as for roll models for children, I will take a bunch of tolerant and loving gays over a hateful you anyday.

To “sometimes it is hard to admit the truth” thank you for your well thought out post.

And to John Lawless, there are many more reknowned scholars in ancient greek with better credentials than you (since you are compelled to post yours) that would disagree with your conclusions. I think you have the right to them and I hope that you are equally as biblically correct when you consider the divorced, the widow, the adulterer, etc.

Part of the reason homosexuality is so attacked by Christians, is that homosexuals more than most groups (it seems to me) attacks Christianity.

I in no way agree with homosexuality, but I am not your judge, that’s Gods job.

WWJ Really do, pedophilia would fall under the category of sexually immorality which is clearly in the bible, it would be in the same category as homosexuality, rape, having partners out of wedlocke. It’s all the same as sin is sin. And fortunately, all sin is redeemable by the blood of Jesus Christ. But to doubt His existance is an unpardonable sin.

billturk: Funny, I’m sure they think the same thing about you. Never mind that a gay person is nor more likely to get HIV than anyone else who practices safe sex, and is no more likely to practice unsafe sex than a heterosexual person.

JC: And why do you think they attack Christianity? Could it be that some groups go out of their way to make the comments like billturk, or that they go out of their way to make sure that individuals who are members of the GLBT community are discriminated against in everyday life. By the way, the difference between homosexuality and pedophilia (goodness, I am TIRED of this comparison) is that pedophilia hurts others and homosexual sex takes place between two consenting adults.

It’s no surprise that a “pastor” who doesn’t preach the need to turn from sin and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ would support the new mayor. Homosexuality is a sin, albeit no worse than any other sin, but a sin nonetheless. It is an affront to God, as is all sin. Mr. Osteen should have called the new mayor to repentance just as he should call all thieves, liars, gossips, fornicators, etc. to repent.

“Forgive them Father for they know not what they do”-Jesus Christ. Amen

WWJD Really DO – I find it kind of funny that you quote that part of the bible. You know the part where he was hanging on the cross for mine and your sins. Unfortunately, I do agree that church membership is dropping. Why? In my opinion it’s because the church has allowed society to water us down so much. We have to conform or be rediculed as hate mongerers and judges. If we are going to be like society why go to church? We were called to be different. Not to judge, but to be Christ like and speak the truth as the Bible says. I do believe that Christians are now the minority as bad as that is.

I am truely enjoying the expression of our different views. To the man who commented on my credentials, you are absolutely right. There are many scholars in Greek with a great deal more training than I have. I would never put myself in their group for they are extremely gifted and trained. I was merely trying to prefix my remarks with the concept that my opinions were based on my own investigations and not the repeating of what some else said.

To the person who said “gays” were here before CHristianity and will be here long after its demise I say check your history. There was a great author named Voltaire who stated the Bible would fall into the waste basket of time and not be read or have any effect on society. Voltaire is dead and the Bible is still the No. 1 most published and read book in the world.

I have a lesbian family member who I love dearly. I would never say or do anything to hurt them. Yet, because of my love for her I must express my concern for her eternal soul whenever given the opportunity.

To the gentleman who saw homosexuailty as a sin different from no other I must disagree. In the Book of Leviticus in the Old Testament it lays out three sins God sets apart. This can be found in chapters 10-20, sex with animals, worship of idols, and homosexuailty. God does see homosexuality as something to be avoided and something he considers to be an abomination.

Once again I apologize if these comments causes stress. I merely wish to express truth without the spin put on it by relativistic commentators.

I like what Robert said:”I just wish the faithful of every religion would STOP attempting to force others to live according to their beliefs”.

Also, I won’t inject my sex life into work if you will keep yours out of work. I can’t have children and get no freebies because of it. So tough luck if you can’t. Some crap in in life happens.

I don’t discuss my private life at work. So keep your mouth shut about who you picked up for a quickie. We loose respect for you. Duh!

If two hetros live together and one dies –hey they can’t inherit property, may not be able to visit in the hospital, access bank accounts, get medical coverage, etc. So don’t complain about discrimination –it is on both sides of the street.

Wanting a good life –life is what you make it. You want to be miserable –do so. I have seen some of the more handicapped people be the happiest in the world. So quit bitchin and start making a happy world instead turning everything sour for all those gay or straight around you.

I don’t care who you hold. So don’t judge who I hold. I am sick of it all. I am sick of all the whining for favortism. We all need to get together and work together to make this earth better. But I doubt the bitchin will ever stop.

The Christian faith premise is about the choice of belief and outlines what the consequences are if you fail to follow that system. In all the passages written I have failed to find that you are called to force your belief on others.

I could take the attack on all of our Civil Liberties if you were actively trying to pursue writing all of the sins and commandments into the documents that our nation is founded on and supposed to be following. That however is far from the case here.

The fact that you are only focusing on a certain issue that does not effect you and never will only leads those of us who care to have independent thought to actively resist all of your efforts to control other people and limit other peoples lives. Including our own.

If you were tossing out or urging those members of your churches to see the errors of their ways who divorces and remarry, who do not conform to the restrictions of diet, and if you were doing label checks to ensure nobody was combining fabric I would take you seriously in your claims about the love you have for those poor and deviant sinners already hip deep around you every Sunday Morning.

You read a lot of comments about the turning away from the sin and asking for forgiveness, repenting and not sinning again that you are “called” to point out to all those people living and sinning. I do not however hear you preaching about returning to your ex-wives/ex-husbands and turning from the sin of adultery that those members of your congregation are living in. I do not ever hear of the protests at Sea Food places about the abomination on the menu, nor protests at Walmart over the clothes on the racks. I do not see the stoning of the sinners that have children out of wedlock, nor the clamor for outlawing Divorce. I could go on and on.

I do hear about the Protection of the Children and the Protection of Marriage. As the Laws stand we have a divorce rate of 54 odd% and the number of unwed couples having children in the 60% range. Seems to me the only people that are attacking these great and traditional roles and institutions are the people that are able to get into them. Our Prisons are filled with the children that we raised under are great Traditions, and our courts are filled with those couples that are actively leaving and attacking the great sacrament of marriage. Children are being placed in foster care or put up for adoption because the traditional Mother and/or Fathers don’t want them, but you actively seek to keep them out of the homes of people who can not have children themselves and who want to raise them in loving homes. You are actively working to keep people who love each other and want to enter into the most high and sacred of institutions, that of Marriage, that you are all flocking in droves to leave.

You continue to blame others but the real assaulter on these traditions are you, the children you raised, and those people that are just like you. The numbers and the facts are there for anyone to see who really wishes to. All that would be required is the removal of the blinder that are covering you eyes.

A very large and vocal number of you all seem to be unable to control yourselves but you are hellbent in your effort to control everyone else around you. It can’t be just me who see’s that you all aren’t able to follow your own Faiths views on most things. Or even agree on things in general. I can’t wrap my mind around you trying to force others around you who do not share your faith to attempt what you fail to do everyday. I guess it is true that misery must love company.

You can repeat “Its out of Love that I….” all you want but to me you all seem to be like a Physical Abuser who beats someone and tells them you only did it because you love them so so very much every single time you are banging people over the head with those Bibles that most of you don’t even apply to yourself. Please don’t forget that the Self Righteous and the Hypocrites will have no place in Heaven. Most of you have forgotten that and it shows every time you open your mouths or type a message on a website.

To John Lawless: Anytime someone mentions the Book of Leviticus, they lose all credibility. This is the same book that forbids men to shave. Forbids people to eat shellfish. Forbids people to wear clothing with mixed fibers. Sentences children to death for speaking back to their parents. Why you would think that book could have ANY relevance to our current way of life is laughable.

AgLee16 – I completely understand the difference between homosexuality and pedophilia, I’m not the one that mentioned it. That was someone else, I simply commented that both were sins as is sex out of marriage by anyone. Read the whole comment and understand what’s going on before commenting on what I said.

This is one of the most fascinating threads I have ever read anywhere—human passion articulated in all kinds of ways and from many different directions. As an atheist who was reared as a Christian, may I say:

Christians ought not ever seek to force others to live their lives according to their beliefs…it’s very offensive and absolutely unChrist like…Jesus never asked us to do that…the very actions of these evangelicals remind me of the absolutist Islamic regimes which seek sharia law…Too many evangelicals are way too much like them…

As I have read the comments and then reread the article, I think this thread met its goal – lump evangelicals as predominantly a people who are either evil or disingenuous, especially (but not exclusively) on the issue of homosexuality.

Advance the idea that evangelicals are only opposed to the homosexual agenda because of their propensity toward social hatred.

Why the strategy? To diminish the impact of their worldview as it touches social issues…and probably any issue. To silence them to only background noise. To eliminate a competing worldview by dismissing it through purposeful misrepresentation.

Steve 1 Evangelicals need no help to be seen for what they represent themselves clearly to be. I mean really believe what you want to, live how you want to, say what you want to, but just allow others the same treatment.

Look at the Amish for instance they live by themselves keep to themselves and live how the please in general. They do not try to alter our way of life or control our way of life or our options or force their chosen path on everyone around them. But Evangelicals on the other hand do not. They are not simply satisfied living, preaching, believing as they do. They seek to influence or force others to adhere to the standards that they have chosen to believe in. And selectively I have to add. And then claim the victim card when people tell you to stay out of their private lives.

Crying about your one right to Religious Freedom while stomping on countless rights of everyone else around you is hardly fair. Evangelicals want the courts and the laws to remain outside their homes and places of worship but have no problem what so ever in forcing their ways, beliefs and laws into everyone else homes/lives and into other places of worship that disagree with your faith message. You seem to wish to disregard the equal application of our rules of government, laws and rules fairly to everyone.

Believe in the sin of homosexuality if you want to, believe that it is a choice if you want to. Shout it from the rooftops of your Church and from your doorsteps, but keep your beliefs where they belong in your own life, home and church. Worry about your own Salvation and focus on your own life choices and decisions. Not on anyone else who doesn’t agree with you and not in our law books.

And admit for once, at the very least, that you are trying to control others options because of your own chosen Faith system. Admit you are working to apply your chosen beliefs to everyone else because you are all in the right and everyone who doesn’t think or believe like you is wrong. Your way is best and your faith system is superior to all others. And that everyone else should allow you to control them. Please tell us all who has made you the Sin Regulatory Police here on Earth because the example set in scripture that you claim to be following is not reflected your behaviors, actions and own lives.

Be for a change an example for others to follow instead of something angry and scary that most just want to run away from. Be the example and not the exception and then you may be able to turn around this huge decline in your membership that has resulted from your efforts to Control, Contrive and Force others into following your message. Your faiths chosen goals and the means to that end are not saving any souls. What you are doing is turning away people completely from faith.

Read the comments again and see for yourself on this thread and others who has their own house in order and who is worried about the neighbors house down the street.

Making life Hell on Earth for Gay people does not inspire them to worry about the hereafter. It does not help them to see the beauty in faith rather it pushes them completely away. What if all of you are wrong about the Messages intent in regards to the Gays? If you are right they loose, but if you are wrong you do. Who’s Salvation are you responsible for your own or theirs? You have pointed it out repeatedly and they have told you that they have no choice but to be who they are. Are the actions you are taking to keep them from achieving legal equally what Christ taught in his Message? I fail to see the parallels between what is being done and what the Message of Christ Teaches. I am frightened for those of you all with stones in your hands because none of you are Sinless to begin with. Who is the judge of sin? You? Or Him that you claim to be speaking and acting for? Would He be doing and acting like you are? I don’t see it and I pray for all of you daily.

You can always tell when the truth hurts deeply those individuals who respond to comments not directed at them personally but that must clearly applies to them by their need to reply and also by the implication that someone who feels differently then they do about the subject at hand is somehow living an unpleasant life. My life is not the least bit unpleasant but then again all of the discrimination that surrounds us does not apply to me personally. I am not sure how you could have come to that conclusion by my post. By all of your responses to other posts that have effected you in some way I would dare say you are the one living a sad and unpleasant life full of a faulty sense of self importance and correctness.

I will however except your apology on behave of the countless other people that your thought process, actions, comments and beliefs effect who’s lives you daily make truly miserable and unpleasant by your failure to view them as equal to yourself because of your personal prejudices, your evident superiority complex, and a faulty belief in your own elevated moral standards/ choices. One down and millions more to go. I hope that is a start to something miraculous happening in 2010. Somehow I seriously doubt it.

First, you don’t even know what I believe about the issue of homosexuality as it is related to…what? marriage? civil rights? You don’t have a clue what I think. Yet, you lecture me and tell me what I think. Is that not arrogance?

And your lecture is this: believe what you want but keep it behind closed doors — if I am an evangelical I have no rights in the public forum in America. While, at the same time, you may believe what YOU want and you may seek to use it to do express it anyway you please. Is that not arrogance?

We live in a society that is inter-related so that one effects another. It’s the old law of thermodynamics – “you can’t just do one thing” one action effects the next that effects the next… We don’t live in a vacuum and because of that we have laws. And, we should carefully weigh those laws. What are they there for? Why are they there? Should they be changed or not? Some should. Absolutely. Some should not.

If a law is changed what other impacts does that change make? Within that context you say to me – if I have a viewpoint and I seek to express it in a public forum and gain support for it I do so out of an attempt to control but if you do the very same thing you, of course, do not have control in mind, at all. Oh, really? Since people within a culture ARE inter-related it is only naïveté that suggests that dramatic changes in the law will not impact everyone. Does not everyone, therefore, have a responsibility to consider such a thing and an opportunity to weigh in? Not in your world. Your world is a democracy, except for evangelicals…or, I suppose whomever might disagree with you? Isn’t that arrogance?

Then, you tell me to STOP being scary and angry. You don’t even know me. You don’t know what I believe nor anything about me yet you judge me and scold me, berate and belittle me. Are you not guilty of all things you have just accused me of? You have lumped every evangelical in with your preconceived notions about them. You have read this article by Jill which gives only the facts that support an anti-evangelical premise and have decided it represents all evangelicals. Isn’t that called bigotry when it is done against any other group? Isn’t that arrogance on your part?

Speaking of laws. I am not trying to change ANY laws. Isn’t your position the position of trying to change laws that exist and have for centuries? Should we? Sure, some laws should be changed but shouldn’t we all get the opportunity to weigh in on those changes? Not according to you.

BTW, I have a respect for the Amish. But, I’m not Amish and I have an opinion…just like you.

To all of you Hypocrites and Pharisees, there is a big difference between disagreeing with the OPTIONAL behavior of a person or group and being consumed with hatred.

Men having sex with men is an OTIONAL behavior. I believe it is wrong. However, just because I believe it is wrong does not mean that I hate those who engage in this OPTIONAL behavior.

The reason I am sorry about your unpleasant life is because of what comes through as hatred against those who disagree with you. To me such hatred can only be caused by the unpleasant life of the hater.

It is like an old man who due to his unpleasant life, sits on his porch screaming at the neighborhood children who happen to momentarily step on to his lawn. The hatred is not due to the children stepping onto the lawn, but is a manifestation of the unpleasant life the old man has.

And to clarify any confusion from the hatred, I do not think that women having sex with women is an abomination onto God demanding of the death of the women. Why? Because my religious texts (nor any other major religion) demands the deaths of “lesbians.”

As for Mayor Parker, it is interesting and can be a means of understanding that she “came out of the closet” by using her lesbianism in her campaign.

It would also be interesting and could be a means of understanding if Mayor Parker “came out of the covent” so to speak.

Many people do not understand Wiccanism. They think it is satan worshipping. Actually, it is more like a mixture between the Native American religion and Druidism.

So why is Mayor Parker ashamed of her religion?

I find it funny that some claim she is not a Wiccan, but an atheist. So it is better in some people’s mind to not believe in God then to believe in many gods!

When two are more people carry on a continuing criminal enterprise it is considered organized crime,if they seek to subvert the rule of law with deception it is subversion,if they attempt to replace existing government through invidious deception it is treasonous.

When A preacher teaches a flock that homosexuality is a sin ,that this sin will bring on gods wrath with all the curses plagues and horrors of this god of theirs wrath upon them and their people and knowingly cherry pick scripture that extols mass murders of those said sinners. A condemnation of those individuals and those who support and fund them is a correct response.

Certainly not all people who believe in this god of jesus would knowingly cause harm to others,however if by action you willingly extols harming other humans who don’t believe in your values then you devalue their life as less then of normal human value.

The declaration of independence said that all humans are created equal with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, it was written to tell the world that a new order of the ages was born and lives in this nation.

In our new order ,socialist , homosexuals,republicans,even evangelicals have equal rights.I appreciate your opinion.You don’t speak for me or anyone I know.

God can speak for his ,her ,itself,and until such time as he she it shows up,you are just another subversive criminal conspirator trying to overthrow the new world order with religious dogma.

Of course that is just my opinion and I don’t even want and certainly hope you want respond with the same “I am being persecuted for my beliefs”attitude as I Have read so far.

1. I have never had nor heard of a pastor ever espouse your extreme illustration. There are thousands of pastors in the Houston area who are considered evangelicals. Give us the name of one who espouses your scenario.

2. It was a whole lot of Christ followers (that you call subversive criminals) 230+ years ago who helped begin this country which gives you and me the privilege to believe as we desire. Our great constitution gives you the privilege to hold the view that those who believe in God are subversive treasonous criminals. To follow your illogical conclusions, I suppose, those criminals must ultimately be eliminated from your society.

3. It is far left crazies like you that compels every Christian or follower of ANY religion or just BALANCED human beings to stay vigilant and involved in our democracy lest people like you gain ultimate authority and legalize your insanity.

Thanks for the reminder that people like you exist as an ongoing threat to our free society. I will be more involved and work harder to be a responsible citizen and express my views to protect my children and grandchildren to come from people like you.

I did not need this article to make my comments. And did not base it off this article alone. I live in the world where I see the Evangelicals preaching, protesting, crying and blaming the downfall of society on Gays, nonbelievers and anyone else who doesn’t agree with the man behind the microphone who has been risen up so high and mightily. You know the ones that are claiming to be speaking for Christ and for all the faithful Evangelicals. Getting lumped into the group that is doing those things was the Evangelicals choice when those people began speaking on that Faiths behalf. They became the Evangelical spokespersons and have chosen to share the Evangelical Faiths viewpoints, as they see it, at every opportunity without hesitation(In the article those men only came forward after the media got wind of their clear involvement. At first they refused to even comment on it until the relationships of the parties involved had been proved and a video was going to be released to the public. Suddenly surprise surprise the stories started.)

Watching all the actions and attacks to the Gays by the people leading the Evangelicals and the power that the Church has been given to alter our Separation of Church and State I see we are not the democracy we are supposed to be but leaning dangerously toward a theocracy where certain Faiths only united to continue the teachings they feel so very important that they will do or say anything to achieve their desired ends. What they seem to want is their Freedom to Discriminate protected at all costs. They are very vocal on the subject. They claim the Faithful are being attacked but I do not see that. The real assaults, beatings, killings, mistreatment I see here is being done to the Gays. And any steps forward to address those crimes/issues are met with firm and vocal opposition from the Evangelicals. Claiming they are working from “Love” but all their actions, comments and strategies point to something totally different.

Millions and Millions and Millions of Tax Free dollars are being collected and wasted to lobby and influence our Government, Law Makers, Courts and Voters. Organizations that are operated and funded by Evangelicals are failing to follow funding rules and abusing the Tax Exempt Status allowed them. Some of these groups are lying about or hiding the details of their Operations. Court orders are being needed for them to comply with common rules/regulations. When those practices are all outside what is considered the “Christian” model/work ethic and you are basing/excusing your actions/reactions All under the irrational fear of the so called “Gay Agenda” any sane person would or should be questioning what is so important or bad that it needs to be hidden and to what depths will they sink down to make it happen? It all reflects back on the members of the Faith Communities that are doing this all on your behalf and with your monetary contributions.

Who is using very shady tactics whenever anything on this issue comes up for the people to vote? Who claims that an “Activist Judge” is hijacking our court systems? What has been said when the decisions handed down do not go their “morally correct” way by the leaders of the Evangelicals? You can read it on the websites you can listen to the comments made on the broadcasts.

Gay people have been waiting for equal access for years. Exactly how long do you think they should continue to wait until we all can agree/decide that they are equal to us in the matters under the Law? Forever?

You wrote how we are all socially inter-related and about how the effects may not yet be factored in yet. You arguments follow that we need to be worried about the outcome and possibilities that changes will cause everyone. Same argument was used against integration by people of faith. It makes as much sense to say that because whenever someone on your street gets married or divorced it personally effects your own marriage somehow. Is everyone else who lives on your streets relationships strengthened or damaged based on the status of your marriage or your divorce? When someone on your street gets a tax breaks you get or they are allowed healthcare coverage does it now effects yours somehow? Of course not, but that type of fear mongering is being used. The very same irrational arguments have been used about every social issue since we created our country: We should wait, we should consider the possibilities, etc. They were Strawmen then and they are strawmen now.

When spokesmen get caught on tape claiming the Nazi’s Crimes against Humanity and other genocides were the fault of the Gays like the men who helped to get the draft the Kill the Gays Bill written or Rick Warren who sponsors the man who has actually wrote it goes and lectures at his church,stays in his home, and whom he calls his Brother, feign shock and outrage when they have contributed time, money, resources and support to the entire endeavor that reflects back on those members of their Faith Communities that have elevated them into a leadership role or actively support their ministries. These communities also sponsor programs/ministries about leaving the “deviant” Homosexual lifestyle. They claim 1000’s of converted or saved people. These successfully released people have never been seen or heard from and these programs have admitted that nobody actually ever has been able to remove their same sex attractions. If this was a chosen behavior wouldn’t the reverse be possible? What is the point exactly of telling and teaching people to only hide, ignore or not act on their attractions and basically live a lie? To make all of us more comfortable? When every medical group has come forward and spoke on the damage that is inflicted on these people that enter into these programs and the attendees of them themselves speak on the total failure, including the very founders and operators, why are the Evangelicals still operating and advertising these obviously bogus programs as successful? Why is the need for them to lie about the results, the numbers or hide the treatments used so important? What could possibly be the reason that it is so important to refuse to acknowledge that sexuality is not a learned or chosen behavior? The only people that still claim that Gay people make a choice are people that are not Gay themselves. The only reason possible is to protect their own prejudices of Gay people. It is very obviously the case to everyone else who knows a Gay, has a beloved Gay family member, or who has watched this struggle continue all these long years.

The same thing can be said when people purpose the hypothetical ill effects in our own lives or society at large when we allow other people the freedoms we currently hold ourselves, and mostly take advantage of. We discount the current ongoing ill effects to those others that are currently denied our superior status under current laws as unimportant because the possible or supposed effects are somehow more important to us then the daily and ongoing ill effects inflicted upon them based on some Morality Code that only some of the many Faiths adhere to. It is justified by our own personal prejudices. It is claimed that they have made this “choice” and they deserve the social outcomes from that decision because they have supposedly chosen wrong and differently then we have. We have decided that they are wrong/bad/sinful because of what we have been taught for years regardless what medical professionals and they themselves have said and refuse to see that we are wrong based on our most importantly protected Biblical passages. So they are unworthy of our own status now and forever. “We are right they are wrong and that is it” say the Evangelicals, they are unmoving on this issue of treating others how they are themselves treated. Because that is somehow the American Way, the Traditional way, the Proper Way. As we have seen on other topics of Equal Treatment in our History the Old way is always the best way Right?

Nobody is asking for permission to change the laws Steve they are just expecting that all the current laws, rules and Government programs are available to everyone the same way they are supposed to as outlined in our documents of governance. People of Faith, Evangelicals, keep saying that the Gays want to re-write the laws or want “special” rights but what they expect are for all the laws we currently have finally be applied equally to every tax paying American Citizen as is outlined in our US charter. Why should they need our permission in the first place? We are all either equal or we are not. The Evangelicals obviously feel that is not the case based on their own words and actions. And who really has “special” rights here anyway if some people can make a choice to treat some people, Gays in this case, Less than everyone/themselves because of a chosen faith beliefs?

I apologize to you for coming off very strongly or arrogant and I apologize to you if I have offended you. Rereading my first post I realize you were right about how it came together. You are also correct that we are all entitled to our own opinions. And have the right to speak our peace.

In my opinion it is never the wrong time to do the right thing. It is my opinion that Gay people are Americans too and should be allowed Equal Treatment under the Law. Maybe you feel/believe differently, and yes you are entitled to that opinion, but the law should be blinded to our own personal prejudices. If is is not then we are not the Country that we claim to be to the rest of the World.

I really wonder at people using remarks like the one made by Everyone’s Child about fictional God or religion – Over a billion people follow the religion of Islam, and it has been only 1431 years as compared to Christianity 2010 years and Judaism 4000 years. These are the three major revealed religions, hardly fictional.

With regards to his other comment, I was very amused to read it. As billturk commented aptly, this is rubbish. No one is born a gay person.

However, let me try to explain from my perspective. The Supreme Being who has created all that we see around, including us. He created us as the best of His creation as we have been given the power to think right from wrong. We believe that each of us was created for an appointed time; we did not know when we were to be born and when we will die.

This appointed time on earth for each of us is very short as compared to the eternal life to come. So He created us all different, in looks, in status, in locations, and believe it or not even little quirks in our male and female chromosomes. All these traits I noted and more are there in us to judge us in this short period of time to see how we can live with the so-called handicaps (btw even good looks and wealth are also handicaps) and still be able to fulfill and follow His instructions to achieve a blissful eternal life.

The male and female quirk I mentioned, is one of the test for us as is addiction to drinking, gambling, cheating, lying etc., as Jay has said, these are all sins. The former item is a trait given to a few of us, men and women, to test us on how we will cope with it. There is a right and a wrong path which is clearly explained in the instructions received by all. There are many who struggle and achieve the goal of refraining from falling into evil, others just like the gamblers in Las Vegas, or the drinkers in the local bars, due to weak control on desires fall into incorrect behavior.

We still respect them and live with them, as they may be our colleagues, friends or family members – but we still point out the right from wrong.

Btw the point Hux stated about Saudi Arabia, is not only true there but also true in other Islamic countries who follow strict Islamic laws, this is a mandate for them to do so. But that does not mean gays do not exist there. I am afraid in this arena there will most likely be no success in trying to expand the advocacy to make them tolerate this. It is simple, what the Supreme Creator has made prohibited, man cannot overturn. Quran is strictly followed.

Lastly I hope Mr. Osteen is reading all this, perhaps it might give him a clue on what to say in his next sermon.

WhichWitch: Those guys aren’t spokesmen for the body of evangelicals. There may have been a day that Falwell had more influence but he eroded that with his misspeaks and people moved away from him. The truth is, no one is a spokesman for evangelicals.

Westboro is about as far to the right as wurmy is to the left. They remind me of each other.

I distance myself from Phelps as much as I want civil Muslims to distance themselves from Al Qaida. So do every other evangelical I know.

The Bible teaches in I Peter 2:17 Show respect for everyone. It doesn’t mean we agree…it means we are to be respectful to everyone, including those with whom we disagree. We still stand for Biblical principles and speak our mind but we are not given the freedom to do that from a position of hate. The Bible is so clear about the issue of love that no one who wants to see it can miss it. Christians who claim to be Biblically committed followers of Christ and act like Muslim extremists are just as wrong as Muslim extremists and ought to be called out.

But, I know a ton of evangelicals and evangelical pastors and I won’t set silent while people lump all evangelicals together under extremist models or even suggest a disenfranchisement of our citizenship and rights in this country as though they had some power to do so.

The Self Righteous never cease to amaze and baffle me. Scientific data and studies clearly do not support your position on the subject of Homosexuality. Instead science and research totally disproves all your talking points and strongly held beliefs on this subject. You also have no personal experience to base your claims on but you are still quite sure that you are correct because your chosen faith supports your position. The claims of the unnaturalness of same sex behavior is disproved in around a 1000 nonhuman species so far, ongoing research trends indicate the prevalence of same sex behavior in most known species.

GLBT people are between 5% and 10% of our population on this planet. Whichever means that have been taken to control, remove or limit this natural assurance in humanity have failed and will continue to fail because you can not control what happens naturally. A firmly held belief in something will not alter fact nor should it be allowed to give an excuse to stigmatize to part of the populace due to the popularly held unfounded, unwarranted, and disproved religious based views.

The scientific communities advancements of all aspects of our lives is applauded and recognized in all areas except on this one subject. People will use the studies, procedures and practices of our medical/scientific communities in health/science related areas and except as fact the advancements in medicines/sciences in general but completely refute the findings in these fields or claim them biased. on the studies done on Human Sexuality especially Homosexuality. What could the motive for that possibly be?

Claiming that sexuality is a choice is a convenient excuse to base your absurd stance on this subject and the inhumane treatment of those people that identify themselves as GLBT. What you fail to realize is that regardless of the true and factual reasons for people being Homosexual they should still be afforded treatment equal to what you yourself enjoy anyway.

Refusal to admit the real reasons for your extreme hesitation to except facts and irrefutably proven evidence over faith teachings shows you to be completely disillusion, utterly brainwashed, an embarrassment to our society and completely outrageous to the Medical and Scientific Communities.

“even suggest a disenfranchisement of our citizenship and rights in this country as though they had some power to do so”

———

Wow. Talk about the pot calling the kettle. That is exactly how gay people feel and have felt for countless years now. Fortunately for them they have the all the laws on their side all you have is your supposed superiority of beliefs and your supposedly correct life path.

You grab your Bible and they’ll grab the Constitution, when you meet in court we will really see what this country is all about. Your Freedom of Religion or everyone else Freedom from your Religion imposing on their personal life. Will the courts agree with you to allow your religion to be forced on everyone else around you………………….I can’t wait to watch it all go down. I think you are going to be disappointed in the outcome because it is already outlined crystal clearly in our rules of law.

To: Facts proved…you said: Scientific data and studies clearly do not support your position on the subject of Homosexuality. Instead science and research totally disproves all your talking points and strongly held beliefs on this subject. You also have no personal experience to base your claims on but you are still quite sure that you are correct because your chosen faith supports your position. The claims of the unnaturalness of same sex behavior is disproved in around a 1000 nonhuman species so far, ongoing research trends indicate the prevalence of same sex behavior in most known species.

I posted my comment without noticing that my word choice was changed incorrectly from occurrence to assurance. Please excuse my error. It should be read as:

“Whatever means that have been taken to control, remove or limit this natural occurrence in humanity have failed and will continue to fail because you can not control what happens naturally.”

I must add that the amount of people that identify with the GLBT is growing. Not due to recruitment as has been alleged but rather Natures way of protecting itself from over population and limited resources. Everyone should start excepting GLBT as just another natural aspect of our Human Sexuality. With the numbers raising it is important to point out the reasons so this next generation will not be viewed with the current negativity so wide spread in our society. Our current World Population is close to 7 billion. It should not really surprise anyone that the Nature is trying to protect itself from it’s biggest enemy, us.

I apologize to you for coming off very strongly or arrogant and I apologize to you if I have offended you. Rereading my first post I realize you were right about how it came together. You are also correct that we are all entitled to our own opinions. And have the right to speak our peace.

(Thank you. That was kind of you to respond in this manner. It is appreciated.)

In my opinion it is never the wrong time to do the right thing. It is my opinion that Gay people are Americans too and should be allowed Equal Treatment under the Law. Maybe you feel/believe differently, and yes you are entitled to that opinion, but the law should be blinded to our own personal prejudices. If is is not then we are not the Country that we claim to be to the rest of the World.

(I agree with you. Gay people are Americans too and should be allowed equal treatment under the law. They have as many rights as I have. In addition, the Bible teaches me that I am to treat every person respectfully and to treat every person with love and that includes people who are homosexual. I honestly try to treat others that way. When people disrespect me I don’t take it very long. That is probably a weakness on my part. I just will not put up with being kicked in the teeth.

At the same time I am not sure that I am at all ready to change the definition of marriage to now include every conceivable scenario, including homosexuality and that is one of the issues at stake in this debate. I disagree with the principle. I also do not buy the belief…and that is what it is, the best I can see…that homosexuality is inborn. In addition, I am tired of the media industry cramming homosexuality down my throat. There cannot be any movie or many shows that do not present the industry’s slanted version of homosexuality and the condemnation of anyone who dares disagree. Now, we are seeing women making out with each other in movies. Soon men will be making out on the screen and then having sex on the screen. In real life, I have told by more than one middle school teacher that there is a growing movement of middle school and high school girls experimenting with bi-sexuality. Children are and will continue to go through indoctrination in the school systems to have “correct” beliefs. By whose standards? Obviously. There are some concerns and there is a debate worthy of having.

It isn’t Christians ramming the Bible down people’s throats. That is false characterization. It is the media ramming homosexuality down the culture’s throat…and the school systems doing the same in other states and no doubt coming here. NO OTHER VIEW IS ALLOWED. NO DEBATE IS ALLOWED. But, there are aspects of this issue that SHOULD be debated.

I will not capitulate just because of unbalanced articles like Jill’s which I believe are set ups to create this very atmosphere of animosity. I will not capitulate to taunting and false characterizations coming from ignorance demonstrated in this thread. I WILL keep pushing back and I WILL NOT simply disappear.

But, what I will see as an absolute is that homosexuals are Americans and deserve the freedoms anyone else does. From a spiritual standpoint, they are human beings and should be treated respectfully and lovingly just like anyone else. I have been and will continue to treat people like people. )

For an overview of species that have been observed to engage in homosexual behaviour in natural conditions, please read Same-sex sexual behavior and evolution, Nathan W. Bailey and Marlene Zuka, Trends in Ecology & Evolution, Volume 24, Issue 8, August 2009, Pages 439-446.

For a more light-hearted look at the matter, there is Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity. Bruce Bagemihl . St. Martin’s Press, New York, 1999. 751 pp.

Hog7cats, my last post was confusing. I was copying Does anyone have any sense left’s? comments to me and then answering those commends within ( ). It IS confusing.

The premise is that though legally equal treatment under the law is there, in actuality it has not been applied…thus the recent legal changes. Here is the truth, if we (meaning Americans) would have been treating everyone (fellow Americans…and others) with respect there would have been no need to change any laws.

On this forum we are having the clash of at least three worldviews: Christian, secular and a few Muslims. Few are listening to each others perspective and are certainly not respectful of the others worldview. I think there is a concern that if one is respectful to the “opposition” it is a sign of weakness. So, the continual clash. The method of exaggeration has been employed by the opposition designed to discredit the other worldview. Then, the other side reacts and so it goes.

Most society’s have one dominate worldview. In America that has been the Christian worldview for 200-300 years. Since probably at least the 60’s there has been a generation worth of effort to secularize America by switching which worldview is dominate. Those who are adherents to the Christian worldview have and will be resistant.

In order to advance one’s own worldview one tactic is to demonize the other. Read the article and then posts — that is what this entire thread is about – the clash, demonization of the opposing worldview and counter argument. So far, it is all about who can shout the loudest.

This thread will be exhausted and then the entire cycle will begin on another thread. Just read the past articles and threads. It is a never ending cycle.

That is the ongoing “nowhere” of this site.

The problem is, it COULD go somewhere but to get there people would actually have to stop demonizing each other and listen to each other’s viewpoint. There IS a legitimate rationale for both worldviews. I have accepted the Christian worldview and fully believe in it. However, if I take away my positions for a moment and listen to the other side I can understand why they hold what they hold to be truth.

For this possibility to happen across this site would require it to be modeled by someone who has the influence to help make it happen.

Thank you for excepting my Apology. Having a rational and respectful conversation on this topic is most refreshing. I am glad we are able to return to having this discourse appropriately Here we go.

If Homosexuality is not an inborn trait how can you explain the number of siblings raised in the same home, with the same role models, experiences, in the same faiths where one is homosexual and one is not? If, as is supposed by you, homosexuality is the result of exposure, indoctrination, or choice how is it possible the numbers of Gay people without those factors ever being made aware to them? If you have no exposure or even knowledge of the “Homosexual Lifestyle” and homosexuality still occurs like in small towns, communities, villages and cultures worldwide with no outside influences like those of third world nations without TV or Gay communities how can your view be supported? What about before all those “influences” began or were even possible? How do you explain the numbers of Homosexuals for all these years without those factors even being available?

If they really had a “choice” to be treated fairly and equally or to be treated as we treat them why do they still make this “choice”? When did you consciously make your “choice” about your own sexuality? If we all finally admit we didn’t why do we assume that they have? They all keep telling us that is not the case. Why do we keep calling them liars? Who would know that better then them? Doctors and Scientist agree with them. What is your real reasoning for the refusal to see “choice” not being an issue? If they made a choice then they deserve how they are being treated? Does anyone’s “choices” really excuse our own behavior towards them anyway if we disapprove based our own biased personal beliefs?

How many things to you wish to do, that everyone around you can do, but you are not allowed to do because someone else decided for you it wasn’t right, and will never be right? (Realistically and legally of course) Did you get married to the woman of your choice when you wanted to or was it decided for you?

Without the influence of the Christian faith most cultures do or did not attach any “wrong” to the expression of that aspect of our human sexuality. Once Christianity began taking over Cultures and subverting them to the “right” way to think, act, behave things changed. Case in point Native American. (Please don’t think I am anti-religious, I’m really not, but it is very hard to support your Faith when all the actions taken by the “masses” and the leaders of that Faith are contrary to the Message. What I see is the perversion the entire intent written from cover to cover. That is my personal opinion. Strangely enough I worry about the backlash heading towards the Faithful because of their current actions. I realize by your post that you may not agree with the current climate or viewpoints totally also.)

I disagree with the assumption that we are opening the doors and windows to every conceivable scenario of marriage when we allow any two consenting non-related adults from entering in that contract. Is there a movement of other groups I am not aware of that is asking for that? Is it even really possible? Is there realistically such a percentage of other “types” asking for it like Homosexuals? Or have their history of mistreatment? Would/could there ever be in the future? It is highly unlikely but in the event that it did do they follow the model of two consenting non-related adults? What exactly is stopping those “types” from achieving their supposed desired ends now? Your Marriage? My Marriage? It quite a stretch isn’t it? Where have these “types” been hiding out just waiting for the chance for the Gays to begin our social destruction?

You state you agree that Gays have all the rights that you and I do. I disagree with that. They only have all the rights that you and I have if and only if they follow our “correct” lifestyle. If they fit in our bubble of “correctness” then they are allowed to access our options. If they do not follow our preferred model they are social outcasts. They are on the outside looking in. Most people prefer that stays the way it is.

We have all these rules and laws now that do nothing to stop crimes/behaviors from happening. People make decisions to break the laws that we set regardless of the consequences. Is Homosexuality a Crime? No. Why the refusal to see them as equal to us when they are breaking none of the laws that we govern ourselves by? The question is should this issue of limiting access be allowed to continue because it personally make some uncomfortable or you find it distasteful?

The amount of Homosexuals on the TV and in Movies is a realistic view of our society. The Best and the Worst of Society is represented along with every thing in between. Should they also not be represented because it make some of us uncomfortable? Murder, Rape, Violence, Drugs and other crimes are all over the TV everyday. Does that lead other people to do those things? Maybe, but all those things actually really harm other people. You have a real victim, not a supposed or hypothetical victim. Seeing two men or two women kissing may upset you or make you uncomfortable but you always have the option of changing the channel or leaving the theater. For those people that actually identify with those two people and wish to see an expression of their lives and loves on screen they do not. Keeping them off the Television, out of movies, and out of sight has never worked to make them conform to how you may wish them to be anyway. Sex in general has been plastered from one end to the other in Movies, TV and Billboards. We may all agree or disagree with the taste level involved in expressing human sexuality but oddly we are bombarded with Violence at an alarming rate with little or no major outcry. Two men or two women kissing is terrible to some but mass murder and extreme violence is exciting and entertaining. I find that troubling personally for a number of reasons.

From their perspective Heterosexuality is being crammed down their throats and have been from birth but that doesn’t change the fact that they are still here. They may be a small percentage but they do exist. Ignoring them or stifling them doesn’t work to make them go away. They do all the same things we do. They live, love, work and pay taxes. When you think about it the homosexuals have all come from homes with the same model of one man one woman so they should all be heterosexual by exposure to that model. All gay people resulted from our perceived correct model to begin with. That is not the case. The only reasonable solution to the growing numbers of Homosexuals is for all of us to stop breeding. We make them and then we mistreat them for not being exactly like us.

Is removing the stigma attached to Homosexuality going to really result in an outbreak of that behavior? We do know that having that stigma attached has not removed Homosexuality so far. If we allow Gay Marriage everyone is going to turn Gay? Hardly. We allow and support “traditional” marriage and that has not yet resulted in everyone being Heterosexual. What would possibly lead us to think the reverse would be true? Our Fear of Possibilities? Or what someone else tells us will happen? How many times have “they” been right in the past? Is that a rational argument to continue mistreating other people that we may think are “Icky”?

Removing the current views attached to Homosexuals only allows for those people that identify as Homosexuals the ability to grow up and live surrounded by people seeing them as equal to themselves, deserving of all the programs, benefits, privileges and decency we show or should show to each other. That is hardly the case in today’s world. You and I might agree in following that model of treatment civility, most however do not.

Fear of the unknown or the possible should not keep us oppressing our brothers and sister who are homosexual. Justifying that oppression from our personal religious beliefs makes no sense. If the real reason for all this nonsense was about protecting the Sanctity of Marriage anyway why do most of the Religious Evangelicals also work so hard to keep Civil Unions from being possible and on an equal footing with our own marriages? Where is the divorce ban movement?

It doesn’t exist because it is our right to leave a marriage if we so choose, contrary to scripture, it is also our responsibility to make sure that only we the “good” and “right” can get into one.

This debate will continue until the powers that be finally address it for all of us. Big Question-Ever wonder why they haven’t? With all the unrest why not make a decision already? I think it is because they know that they can’t side with the discrimination of a minority. It’s in the Courts again in California now and NOM admitted defeat before it even began because they know they have no legal footing to stand on.

Please note the the “you” written does not imply any attack or assumption about your personal view unless they apply. I did use some generalizations to address numerous topic and points traditionally held by most Evangelicals or Religious people of many Faiths.

Are you claiming that a homosexual can not give a power of medical attorney to another homosexual?

Adulterous heterosexuals can not openly serve in the military. Uniform Code of Military Justice prohibits that too.

Can a girlfriend be the automatic heir? Of course with wills anyone can be a heir. So is all this just because some homosexual does not want to take five minutes to write out a will?

You are correct in that homosexuals can not have a common law marriage that is because the legal definition of marriage does not include man/man, woman/woman, cousin/cousin, man/beast, mother/son, man/woman/woman/woman/woman, etc.

I am a heterosexual. I do not have the right to marry a man, animal, a cousin, sister, mother, daughter, or multiple women etc.. So our rights are EXACTLY the same!

It is hard to respond to an entire book. You raise too many issues at once. I don’t have time to address all or even part of that right now, but thanks for the rationale discussion.

One small point – you blame all of the woes of homosexuality worldwide on Christianity. I don’t have any information on Asian practice, Muslim practice, North American Indian pre-Christianity; South and Central America pre-Christianity and African pre-Christianity. You made a lot of statements but didn’t provide any documented evidence to back up your beliefs. It would be nice to access all that evidence you possess. Could you provide some?

I’ll get back when I can get some time. That make me go to work…imagine that.

To: Does anyone have any sense left? (I wish I had a better identification for you than this but…)

I got a break and jumped at a chance to respond to your “book.” I hope it is OK with you if I just address your set of questions related to why you have arrived at the belief that homosexuality is inborn. I will put in parenthesis your comments:

(If Homosexuality is not an inborn trait how can you explain the number of siblings raised in the same home, with the same role models, experiences, in the same faiths where one is homosexual and one is not? If, as is supposed by you, homosexuality is the result of exposure, indoctrination, or choice how is it possible the numbers of Gay people without those factors ever being made aware to them? If you have no exposure or even knowledge of the “Homosexual Lifestyle” and homosexuality still occurs like in small towns, communities, villages and cultures worldwide with no outside influences like those of third world nations without TV or Gay communities how can your view be supported? What about before all those “influences” began or were even possible? How do you explain the numbers of Homosexuals for all these years without those factors even being available?

If they really had a “choice” to be treated fairly and equally or to be treated as we treat them why do they still make this “choice”? When did you consciously make your “choice” about your own sexuality? If we all finally admit we didn’t why do we assume that they have? They all keep telling us that is not the case. Why do we keep calling them liars? Who would know that better then them? Doctors and Scientist agree with them. What is your real reasoning for the refusal to see “choice” not being an issue? If they made a choice then they deserve how they are being treated? Does anyone’s “choices” really excuse our own behavior towards them anyway if we disapprove based our own biased personal beliefs?)

These are great questions and very fair ones. They don’t PROVE homosexuality is inborn but they do provide a rationale for those who choose to BELIEVE that it is inborn. The problem is, these questions pose issues but don’t automatically presuppose the answers. Some of them are hypothetical and some are very interesting things to explore but derivatives of these same types of questions could be used for a large number of other issues in which you might suspect there are actually valid reasons to arrive at a contrary conclusion.

Throwing in the “doctors and scientists agree” is a little lame, in my opinion, and is just trying to manufacture some back-up. If we worked at it, we both could probably line up “doctors and scientists” who take either side and many who “scientifically” would claim neutrality on the topic.

Besides the fact that these questions speak into your belief, what these questions DO show is a deep compassion you have for gay people. You see people who are not being treated like people ought to be treated and it has raised a righteous indignation in you. I know what that feels like. I feel the same way about the millions of babies being aborted. Honestly, sometimes I so hurt over it that I get tears and I get angry and I wonder, how could civilized people, in light of so much scientific advancement and understanding about the unborn, keep supporting that and doing that? What you wrote seems to express THAT kind of feeling about how homosexual people are being treated.

And many of them are being treated wrongly by Christians. It’s true. I think some Christians are doing that out of hate and many Christians are doing that out of fear…fear of where these changes in society will all lead. I share some of that fear, quite honestly. But, there is no excuse for treating human beings like many homosexuals have been and are being treated…by Christians and others.

I think I have established that I am a deeply devoted follower of Christ and I am an evangelical because of my beliefs about the Bible. My pastor has addressed the issue of homosexuality several times in our church. He has addressed the Biblical passages that relate to this subject. There are several and they are quite clear. But, every time he has addressed it he has made a statement similar to this, “The Bible does not condone homosexuality as a life style and I agree with the Bible. But, I also agree with the WHOLE Bible and the larger issue of scripture is loving every person as a person and demonstrating respect for every one, including those with whom we may disagree. It is wrong when a Christian is anything but loving toward gay people. Love does not mean that we accept a position or an opinion of others but it does mean that treat every person with care and kindness.” He is not the only evangelical pastor I have heard that teaches that truth.

You BELIEVE that homosexuality is inborn and you have done a great job of illustrating some of the rationale of why. I do NOT believe it is inborn. I believe it is a choice. …Oftentimes a choice that has come out of some deep hurts and even some yearnings, but a choice nonetheless.

We think differently and we both have rationales for our beliefs.

Thanks for expressing your views. You and I have a much greater chance of hearing each other, even if we don’t end up agreeing with each other, by talking and not screaming. Thanks for modeling that!

A heterosexual’s partner is automatically given the right to make medical decisions, even over hte wishes of the partner’s family (witness Terri Schiavo). For homosexuals, the case is reversed; the family is assumed to have the right and the homosexual must fight for it, even when the partner has a signed power of medical attorney.

Adulterous heterosexuals in the military are typically faced with nothing more than a reprimand, whereas suspected homosexuals (even celibate ones) are faced with automatic discharge. Not exactly “equal treatment under the UCMJ”, is it?

A heterosexual’s girlfriend can claim a common law marriage exists and so be made an heir automatically; a lesbian’s girlfriend has no such right.

The legal definition of marriage in New Hampshire, Iowa, Massachusetts, Vermont and Connecticut includes same-sex couples. Texas does not, but will likely be forced to accept them, much as it was forced to accept mixed-race marriages after Loving v. Virginia in 1967.

Your argument that same-sex couples is the same as polygamy, beastiality, and incest is a tired logical fallacy. You may as well argue that reading the Bible leads to slavery, as the Southern Baptists were for that particular institution.

And one legal note – you do have the right to marry a second cousin in Texas. Interestingly, until 2005, you could also marry a first cousin in Texas, as long as you were of opposite sexes.

As the facts show, your rights are not exactly the same as those of gays – unless you are using the phrase in an “Animal Farm” snese of “all of us have equal rights; some are just more equal than others”.

John D wrote, “A heterosexual’s partner is automatically given the right to make medical decisions, even over hte wishes of the partner’s family (witness Terri Schiavo).”

ONLY if they are legally married or have a medical power of attorney. A legal power of attorney trumps family. Do you have a legal cite that shows otherwise?

John D wrote, “Adulterous heterosexuals in the military are typically faced with nothing more than a reprimand, whereas suspected homosexuals (even celibate ones) are faced with automatic discharge. Not exactly “equal treatment under the UCMJ”, is it?”

Not true. Don’t ask, don’t tell solved that. And when was the last time the military discharged a person that did not tell and remained celibate?

There are specific requirements that make a common law marriage.

john D wrote, “Your argument that same-sex couples is the same as polygamy, beastiality, and incest is a tired logical fallacy.”

As you know I did not say that. Your twisting my words are the same “tired logical fallacy.”

A heterosexual can not marry a person of the same sex. The same goes for homosexuals in Texas.

A homosexual can marry a person of the opposite sex (with certain restrictions) just like a heterosexual can marry a person of the opposite sex. So how is that different?

Not true. Don’t ask, don’t tell solved that. And when was the last time the military discharged a person that did not tell and remained celibate?

There have been numerous cases. Dan Choi is one example. He was celibate and yet was discharged.

There are specific requirements that make a common law marriage.

Yes, there are. Can you give me one compelling reason that one of those requirements should be that the people claiming a common law marriage must be of opposite sex?

Your argument that same-sex couples is the same as polygamy, beastiality, and incest is a tired logical fallacy.”

As you know I did not say that. Your twisting my words are the same “tired logical fallacy.”

Yes, you did; here is the quote:

“You are correct in that homosexuals can not have a common law marriage that is because the legal definition of marriage does not include man/man, woman/woman, cousin/cousin, man/beast, mother/son, man/woman/woman/woman/woman, etc.”

If you are going to lie, you should really do it better.

A heterosexual can not marry a person of the same sex. The same goes for homosexuals in Texas

That is the same reasoning that was used by anti-miscagenationists before Loving v. Virginia made the point moot – “A negro can marry anyone of their own race and so can I; what’s the problem? They just want additional rights!” (Though the anti-miscagenationist would typically use more racially charged words than “negro”.)

And the truth is that gays do want additional rights – they want enough rights to have the same level as heterosexuals. What they do not want is more rights than heterosexuals.

Gays want the right to marry any adult that they please. How is this a bad thing? What social need over-rides their right to engage in the civil contract of marriage with a member of the same sex? Without such a need, there is no reason to deny them this right.

When I hear people say that ‘Science and research’ has proven that this act is natural, I take it as an insult to the Supreme Creator and an infringement on blasphemy for those who believe.

If one is a non-believer it is entirely useless to give them any faith based proof.

So to those of faith, and mainly the three major religions, the Creator has already stated that this type of behavior is sinful – period ! No arguments about it.

As I said before, He also says that He has created Humans in the best of forms, taught us what is right and what is wrong and given us the power to think and choose the right path.

Speaking of non-human types, He gave them instinct. These instincts allow them to make nests, care for their young one’s, and even the food they choose is a God given instinct. Every animal and insect eats their own specific food. A good example is also demonstrated when you see a chicken following some ducks around, when they reach a pool of water the ducks jump in, but the chicken will not, this is a God given instinct !

Given this reasoning, can one think that the Supreme Creator who has created this whole universe for a purpose and has decreed this act as sinful would plant an instinct in the animal to commit such an act ?? The answer is not only NO WAY, but to even suggest something of this nature is blasphemy.

The ‘Science and research’ talked about earlier is an experimentation perhaps being conducted by researchers of the same mindset, they would love to prove that this sinful act is a natural act.

I am afraid if one follows the scriptures there should be no need for alarm, these types of people existed before and will be around until the day of judgment, as will other vices that humans indulge in. Only the ones who control their desires and not fall into these vices will succeed.

I agree with the statement made by someone earlier that these types sexual acts should remain in the privacy of the bedrooms, there is no need for publicity. And Mr. Osteen should stick to the true message and not give mixed messages to his flock.

you – “Yes, there are. Can you give me one compelling reason that one of those requirements should be that the people claiming a common law marriage must be of opposite sex?”

–

So we agree that there are specific requirements that make a common law marriage. One compelling reason is that a society has the right of self government. Texas has always held that people of the same sex can not “marry.”

”

“You are correct in that homosexuals can not have a common law marriage that is because the legal definition of marriage does not include man/man, woman/woman, cousin/cousin, man/beast, mother/son, man/woman/woman/woman/woman, etc.”

That does not say that homosexuality is the SAME as the other perversions. It says that they all have a similar characteristic – exclusion from the definition of marriage.

Do you not understand the definition of the word SAME?

“Gays want the right to marry any adult that they please.”

As pointed out heterosexuals do not have the right to marry any adult(s) that they please.

No one is preventing homosexuals from living together and engaging in un-natural and abominations. Homosexuals are demanding that normal people accept their lifestyles.

So do what perversions you desire in the privacy of your own home (with the exception of involving children). I care not. Just do not expect me to change my opinion and belief that men having sex with men is an abomination etc. etc. and don’t expect me to want my tax dollars to be spent so that this abomination can be carried on.

–

So are we agreed? I will stay out of your bedroom and you stay out of my religion and tax dollars!

Why the constant obsession about sex by those who are opposed to same-gender marriage?

Are you so shallow as to believe that’s all that marriage is about? Is that truly what your marriages are all about? Just sex, sex, sex 24/7? Or is it (more likely) that there is no sex in your marriage anymore and you’re jealous that other people might be having sex?

Marriage is about much more than sex. It’s about being with someone you love and care about. It’s about establishing a relationship and a home together. It’s about paying the bills, cooking dinner and taking out the trash. It’s about being there for each other in good times and in bad, sickness and health, etc. It’s about sharing your life with someone.

Gods know, you don’t have to marry someone just for sex. Getting laid is the easy part. The rest of it takes a lot of work.

I see absolutely no reason why gays should not be allowed to marry. It can’t be because marriage is an exclusively Christian right (rite?) because agnostics, atheists, humanists, Muslims, Pagans, Jews, Hindus, Scientologists, Buddhists, even Satanists, are all allowed to marry. Therefore, it can’t be argued from the religious point of view.

As for perversions being practiced in the bedroom, well, I don’t know what rock you’ve been living under all these years, but “straight” people can be pretty perverted as well. I’d be pretty willing to bet that “perversions” were not invented by homosexuals. 😉

Langbehn v. Jackson Memorial Hospital was not a Texas case. We were speaking of Texas weren’t we? Try again.

When did we decide that this matter was restricted to Texas? I certainly never agreed to do so. In any case, perhaps you may have heard of this thing called the “federal government”. It covers all of the states, and this was a federal case.

You asked for a celibate that had been removed under DADT; I provided one. You try again.

So we agree that there are specific requirements that make a common law marriage. One compelling reason is that a society has the right of self government. Texas has always held that people of the same sex can not “marry.”

That’s not a compelling reason. The state’s right to self government is limited by the US Constitution; a marriage is a civil contract. And the US Supreme Court has already ruled that a marriage or divorce that is valid in one state must be held valid in all US states and territories.

“Gays want the right to marry any adult that they please.”

As pointed out heterosexuals do not have the right to marry any adult(s) that they please.

But why should gays have more restrictions that heterosexuals?

No one is preventing homosexuals from living together and engaging in un-natural and abominations. Homosexuals are demanding that normal people accept their lifestyles.

Your bias is showing here. It has been proven time and again that homosexuality is not unnatural; i.e., that it is observed in many other species (and no, Ansar, these were not experiments designed to create homosexual responses; these were observations of animals in the wild). As to being an abomination, that is a religious statement. As the US is a secular society, your religion’s views are irrelevant. Unless you can show a civil harm that is caused by two men getting married, there is no reason to prevent it.

So are we agreed? I will stay out of your bedroom and you stay out of my religion and tax dollars!

Only if we get to remove the tax exemption from your church. After all, those are my tax dollars supporting it, so let’s have the same standard for both cases. No gay marriage, no tax support for churches.

Ok you see a choice. I get that, but you have no personal experiences to base that on. You have your chosen Faith teachings to back you up. Even if it was a “choice” shouldn’t anyone get to have the freedom to make their own personal choices without judgment/scorn/shame/limits applied to them because of the choices you have made yourselves about your Faith Beliefs?(as long as that choice causes no harm to others of course)

Since you are Evangelical to put it in perspective for you- How would you feel if it was told to you you were going to be a Mormon because Mormonism was the right way to be? Mormons are good and Evangelicals are bad. And if you refuse to be a Mormon then you could not get married? That is what we are doing to Gay people in a nutshell.

Anyone who see’s that Homosexuals make a choice must not have a close family member who is a Homosexual. I do. I watched the struggle to conform to the “correct” model. I watched the pain and the hurt and the shame heaped upon someone who is trying so hard to be just like “us”. It is simply an impossible task for them. (It is also something that a “just” God could never impose on anything created in his image and with his love.) We were raised in an extreme Pentecostal family with no outside influences and I mean NONE. No TV, no movies, nothing but church, church and more church. The behavior/treatment allowed/done by parents to my sibling is something that no child should ever have to endure. The process of “conversion” was so damaging and traumatizing I fear she is scared for life.

(Interesting you brought up the unborn in your comment because typically Evangelicals have a huge problem with abortion but no problem treating Gays the way they do. Gays are/were children listening to everything being said about them everyday by people of Faith. The words and teachings never change them but they turn away from faith completely)

The medical and scientific data and results can be found easily online if you really wish to look for it and I could post some of the many but it is my experience that it would be a waste of time. By your comment you have already dismissed them. But I will try anyway. Considering that every single major medical organization has studied this and concluded that yes they can not find the “Gay Gene” conclusively they also cannot find the “straight gene” either, but they are still trying. They do have brain scan analysis that shows the difference of a gay brain and a straight brain etc etc But Someone who has such a huge hesitation will only view the studies as biased and done by the “gays” and part of the “agenda”. It’s really quite interesting how that works out for some of you. You need no proof for your belief necessary however you need 100% conclusive evidence presented to treat someone different than you the way you wish to treat yourselves. (Not an attack on you personally Generalization) Here is one for you anyway-

The American Academy of Pediatrics:

“The current literature and most scholars in the field state that one’s sexual orientation is not a choice; that is, individuals do not choose to be homosexual or heterosexual. There is no scientific evidence that abnormal parenting, sexual abuse, or other adverse life events influence sexual orientation”

Why the fixation on this one “SIN” or this “Choice”? I will never understand how the traditional tenets of the Faithful can be updated regularly that apply to all of “us” but nothing can ever change that one “SIN”. I have come to the concussion that since it doesn’t effect “us” there is no reason to even try to use sense or practicality . Women-check, slaves-check, diet-check, shaving-check, divorce-check, etc. But Gays-hold it right there Mister!

If you would like info on pre-christian cultures or pre-catholic Christianity or non-christian cultures studies in regards to Homosexuality just type it in. All the info can be found if one wishes to see it. (I found it interesting that Christians were doing Same Sex Ceremonies until the 1200’s). However usually the response to these studies is the same “agenda”.

I am glad that you and I are able to discuss this. When some people have a Religious basis for their own decisions/teachings on this issue it is hard to have a conversation that raises possible questions some would rather not face. Thinking outside the Box or the Book, in this case, is not always possible.

First we have the claim of Homosexuality being unnatural. Then you get pointed out that 1500 other Species have been found to have Same Sex behavior and now you even call that BS. I suggest you use the computer to access the real world. The fact is that your claims are false and utter lies. Almost every single species known to man has shown to have Same Sex Behavior and you have no darn basis left to stand on in your argument about the divine Creator. If he gave them those instincts then they are natural. Revealing obviously the same thing in Humans.

Your computer can be a Portal to Information rather than a soap box for you to stand on! You are a Pharisee!

“If one is a non-believer it is entirely useless to give them any faith based proof.”

-Yeah because your faith based proof is opinion and some of us here in reality base our opinion on FACTS!

Your comments make you look a fool because they are utter lies. Keep telling yourself how righteous you are in your judgment of those terrible “sinners”. May you reach your very fitting reward on judgment day! You will be surrounded by many of your friends in the flames.

“Natural: 2 a : being in accordance with or determined by nature b : having or constituting a classification based on features existing in nature” (Merriam-Webster’s second definition, chosen to be consistent with the first and to eliminate any observer bias)

For something to be unnatural it must therefore be something that does not naturally occur (i.e., not be in accordance with nature). For example, I can claim that something moving faster than the speed of light in a cvacuum is unnatural as we have never observed a tachyon. However, I cannot claim that a vacuum is unnatural, as there is an awful lot of it out there.

Thus, any observation of homosexual behavior in animals in the wild would demonstrate that homosexuality is natural as it only takes one piece of contrary evidence to prove a theorem false.

So, do we observe animals engaging in homosexual behavior in the wild? Yes, we do:

Indeed, this is such a well-known phenomenon that there are entire volumes of researchg dedicated to discovreing why it is so commonplace in the animal kingdom (e.g., Homosexual Behaviour in Animals: An Evolutionary Perspective, eds. V. Sommer and P.L. Vasey, New York: Cambridge University Press.).

What a shame to only find this sometimes intelligent, sometimes namecalling discourse now. I cannot possibly digest all this (there are several books and novellas in here, many more to the point than I will be) and if I rehash points already made, my apologies.

Hetero / homo / bi – the concepts can strike people to their very core. Sexuality is a deep part of our identity, and whatever you or I may be, it’s highly personal. Some peopel can deal with an objective consideration, while some people can find the mere consideration downright revolting.

As a GENERAL rule (all rules have exceptions, including this one), I fully believe that being gay or straight is not a concious choice. I have yet to meet a straight person that found themselves contemplating their sexuality as they hit puberty. I have found some gay people that have actively fought what they knew deep down was their sexuality, and I have seen them royally screwed up in the head for it.

I have seen people thrown out of their homes, disowned by their families, beaten and rejected, traumatized and mistreated, for being gay. Yet straight people still believe this is a choice. For God’s sake, why would anyone CHOOSE to be gay?

Me? I’ve known I was gay since before I knew there was a word for it. It was not a choice. It was a very real awareness that what I felt was not what was expected of me by society and family. This did not change what motivated me at MY CORE.

Ultimately, if you take the mechanics of sex acts and gender out of the equation, gay people want pretty much what straight people want. Someone with whom they can share their lives, celebrate their accomplishments, mourn their losses, nuture bonds, someone to whom they provide the same, someone to love and be treasured by. Gay people happen to want it from members of the same gender.

To those that have referenced HIV and animal behavior, take one look at Africa, where HIV is primarily spread by heterosexual intercourse, and believe what you want, but animal kingdom demonstrations of gay behavior are well documented and no secret.

If I could be straight, I would be. My mom would have grandchildren, I would not have to live two lives in certain circles, and conversations like this would be nonexistent. I could try to be straight, date women, lie to them and myself, and live without being true to the way I was made by God. Whose religion could that possibly satisfy?

But I’m not. Fortunately for my mental well being, this was never a crisis of morality to me. The morality comes into how I apply my sexuality and my commitment to my partner. If you think gays are all promiscuous, your are misinformed. If you think straights are not promiscuous, you are misinformed. I grew up with ex-Marine brothers that chased tail all the time, kept scorecards on their women (and getting a last name was two points off). If you consider them less of a sinner simply because of how the parts interlock, I consider that your burden to bear, not mine.

And to those that believe gays want additional rights and that gays have all the same rights as you, this could not be more wrong. Marriage (common-law and traditional) automatically grants so many rights by default that you’re not even aware you have them. Spouse dies with no will? There is no debate where inheritance goes, this right is a default. I could go on and on and on – but others already have.

To those that want to believe otherwise, my comments will have no bearing. Believe what you want to believe. That is between you and your God, as my beliefs are between me and mine. I have no concerns about what God will think of me when it is His time do ponder my fate in an afterlife (should there even be one).

I’ve known Joel since he was little…I knew his entire family growing up. He is sincere. He’s real. You can’t put him in a box and define him as being “like the others” like a Jim Bakker or someone like that. If you ever met him and talked to him you’d realize that. His family was dirt poor like us in the 50’s and they helped far more people than they ever did for themselves, and they accepted everyone as they are…all religions, all colors, all walks…it didn’t matter.