[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1316211781' post='75017']
In working with my cult ministry, I have found that there has to be a progression. First one accepts Jesus as Lord, Savior and Mediator, then they realize that when Jesus is called Lord, it is the same as God, the last step is realizing that Jesus had no beginning. You see, if you try to argue theology with people before they have accepted Jesus as their Lord, Savior and Mediator it will do little good. It will end up with them staunchly defending their current beliefs and providing scriptures that support their viewpoint. Just look at some of my past posts and you will see what I mean.

But, we can answer this answer in a couple of ways. First off, John 1:3 says that not one thing came into existence without the Word. Not ONE thing. This would of course include the word. Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1 establish that in the beginning, nothing but God was in existence. If you want to say that something existed in the beginning, then prove it with scripture instead of conjecture. You can't.
[/quote]

ME,

Your quote of John 1:3 hits the nail squarely on the head. The same cosmological argument that refutes the atheist alwo refutes Mormonism. All Mormon gods come from within creation and this side of creation. So I asked Geode how the creation can exist without the Creator existing before the creation.

The Mormon Church therefore argues that matter is eternal. Why? Because none of their gods is eternal. But matter can't be eternal. The First Law of Thermodynamics says that the universe could not have created itself from nothing. The Secnd Law of Thermodynamics says that a fire will not burn forever and the amount of useable energy in the universe is always decreasing and the order of the universe is going from order to disorcer. So if the universe could not have created itself from nothing, and if it could not have always been here, then it had to be brought into existence by an entity or Being outside and before the creation. There is no getting around or behind these laws.

So the Mormon jesus can't guarantee existence let alone salvation. For anything or anyone to exist, there has to be a non-contingent Being who does not owe existence to anyone or anything else. Even God can't bring Himself into existence if he did not exist. God had to have always existed. All Mormon gods do not exist eternity past and therefore can't be before creation.

"They [Mormons] do not use the term 'God the Son' because this is a Trinitarian formulation... The Mormon Jesus is "a" [my emphesis] God, and that fits the definition of His being divine."

So, Jesus is "a" god and not "the" god? In your own words, you accept the Mormon jesus as divine because the Mormon Church declares him to be divine. if so, checkmate and game. You are not a Christian because you have not accepted Jesus Christ who is God the Son who existed eternity past, the God who is, who was,and who is to come. There is no salvatin in any other Jesus. To say that Jesus is "a" god can only mean that there are other gods.

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1316222186' post='75023']
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.--Hebrews 1:3
[/quote]

ME,

You are correct in that God upholds all things by the word of his power and Genesis 8:22 guarantees that the physical laws will operate tomorrow as they did today. But the Second Law of Thermodynamics proves that matter is not eternal. A simplier way of stating this law is that a fire will not burn forever. The First Law of Thermodynamics basically states that a rock can't create itself from nothing.

So, using these two laws, an argument can be made that defeats atheism and Mormonism. If the universe could not have always been here, and if it could not have created itself from nothing, then there has to be a Creator God outside and before the universe. Otherwise, nothing could exist.

This uiverse is cursed. Paul writes that the whole creation "groans and moans to be perfect again." And God will do that when He creates a new heaven and new earth. And He will give Israel a New Jerusalem with Jesus sitting on King David's throne.

I was not disagreeing with you Teejay. What you said reminded me of the scripture.

And while we are here, I was thinking of something to add. I NEVER go to the JW Bible to gain a better understanding of a scripture. I don't know why I appeared to agree with Geode when he provided a scripture from a Mormon Bible. I actually find it disturbing that he quoted it.

"They [Mormons] do not use the term 'God the Son' because this is a Trinitarian formulation... The Mormon Jesus is "a" [my emphesis] God, and that fits the definition of His being divine."

So, Jesus is "a" god and not "the" god? In your own words, you accept the Mormon jesus as divine because the Mormon Church declares him to be divine. if so, checkmate and game. You are not a Christian because you have not accepted Jesus Christ who is God the Son who existed eternity past, the God who is, who was,and who is to come. There is no salvatin in any other Jesus. To say that Jesus is "a" god can only mean that there are other gods.

TeeJay

Yes, The Mormons believe that Jesus is "a" god and not "the" God. I said that the Mormon's believe Jesus is divine, which is true. You dcalimed otherwise. I did not say that I still accepted the Mormon concept of their Godhead. I also believe that belief in Jesus and His teachings is more important than the concept of the Trinity or the Mormon Godhead which are closer than most seem to think. They both are conventions that came to be after Christ's ministry to come to grips with the infinite nature of God which our minds are unable to grasp. Neither one of them fully explains all scripture. I don't think pondering about this to be as improtant as centering on the teachings of Christ and his saving grace. The fact that I personally have shifted in my beliefs regarding the nature of God does not to me mean that others with a different concept, but believing upon Christ as their saviour, are in some different status than me. You cannot comprehend eternity past of future any better than any other of us, so I don't think you make a very good case.

I was not disagreeing with you Teejay. What you said reminded me of the scripture.

And while we are here, I was thinking of something to add. I NEVER go to the JW Bible to gain a better understanding of a scripture. I don't know why I appeared to agree with Geode when he provided a scripture from a Mormon Bible. I actually find it disturbing that he quoted it.

I didn't post from a Mormon Bible. I quoted from the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible, which has never been accepted by the Mormons. They officially accept the King James version as canonized scripture. I simply quoted it due to its curiosity value in the discussion, and if you will notice I definitely did not say that I accepted this verse or version over the real and authentic translations of the Bible. It remains as historical oddity.

Mormons believe that God had s@x with Mary. Most Mormons have no idea about this obscure teaching. They change the definition of the word virgin. Mormons feel that they can still use the phrase "virgin birth" because God was an immortal being who had s@x with Mary. (He was not a mere mortal man.) This is exactly what Bruce R. McConkie, (a leading LDS theologian who died in 1985) said: "For our present purposes, suffice it to say that our Lord was born of a virgin, which is fitting and proper, and also natural, since the Father of the Child was an immortal Being" (The Promised Messiah, p. 466). In other words, if Joseph had s@x with Mary she would not have been a virgin, but since God had s@x with Mary, she remains a virgin.

Lest you argue that this is not a modern day teaching. Note the date McConkie wrote this.

TeeJay

I already posted a far more accurate version of what Mormons believe about this. Bruce R McConkie was wrong about many aspects of Mormon thought or doctrine. He was not authorized to speak for the Mormon church in terms of authenticating doctrine. This reamined his own opinion. He was taken to task by then the president of the Mormon church and their top governing body (The Quorum of The 12 Apostles) for publishing items as official doctrine that were not. he always posted in support of his father-in-law who was a future president of the church. They both sided with Brigham Young on this issue. But of I posted this already. You are doing what is often typical or critics, postinng a quote from one individual as if this establishes Mormon doctrine.

An=d by the way, 1985 is a long time ago in terms of the shift the Mormon church appears to be taking.

[quote] name='Geode' timestamp='1317559145' post='75317']
I already posted a far more accurate version of what Mormons believe about this. Bruce R McConkie was wrong about many aspects of Mormon thought or doctrine. He was not authorized to speak for the Mormon church in terms of authenticating doctrine. This reamined his own opinion. He was taken to task by then the president of the Mormon church and their top governing body (The Quorum of The 12 Apostles) for publishing items as official doctrine that were not. he always posted in support of his father-in-law who was a future president of the church. They both sided with Brigham Young on this issue. But of I posted this already. You are doing what is often typical or critics, postinng a quote from one individual as if this establishes Mormon doctrine.

An=d by the way, 1985 is a long time ago in terms of the shift the Mormon church appears to be taking.
[/quote]

Geode,

I pray that you understand that I'm not your enemy. What I am doing here is what that Presbyterian minister should have done--get you to accept the true Jesus Christ and get you saved. I don't want you to spend an eternity in hell. Therefore, I will tell you the truth. You are not saved! If you were, you would not be reluctant to denounce Joseph Smith as a false prophet and the Mormon jesus as a false god. (As an aside, recently, the Presbyterian Church passed a resolution that g*y and lesbians living with same s@x partners can be pastors. God says that they should be put to death, but your church says they can be pastors. Both the Bible and the Presbyterian Church can't be correct. Do you agree? Please answer.

Concerning the father s@x with Mary subject, please read the following. Geode, what I don't want to hear is an attack on the author. Rather, I want you to attack the validity of her assertions. If they are true, that's what matters.

LDS Leaders Define Their Concept of JESUS CHRIST By Sandra Tanner

Often Mormons will say that they believe in the same Jesus as standard Christianity. However, their leadersÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ definition is very different. The current president of the Mormon Church, Gordon B. Hinckley, made a very telling comment about Jesus Christ in a talk in Geneva, Switzerland, June 6, 1998. The Deseret News reported:

In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints "do not believe in the traditional Christ. No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times.

He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages." (Deseret News, Church News section, Salt Lake City, Utah, week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7)

Mormonism teaches that somewhere in eternity past God and his wife first existed as mortals on a different earth, overseen by their Heavenly Father and Mother.

This mortal couple died, received resurrected bodies, and eventually achieved godhood. They then procreated the millions of spirit children that would be sent to this earth as mortals. Thus God is part of an eternal chain of gods procreating spirit children for different worlds. Joseph Smith preached:

God himself, was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!...it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 305)
The Mormon Church teaches that men, gods, angels and devils are all the same species. Thus both Jesus and Lucifer are literally our elder brothers. As men are viewed as being the same species as God and Jesus they have the same potential to achieve godhood. Brigham Young preached:

We have a Father; He is in heaven; ...He says that we are His children. ... we actually believe that God the Father is our heavenly Father, that we are His children; and we believe that Jesus Christ is our elder brotherÃ¢â‚¬â€that he is actually the Son of our Father and that he is the Savior of the world, and was appointed to this before the foundations of this earth were laid. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, pp. 235-256, February 20, 1870)
On another occasion Brigham Young declared:

He [Jehovah] was the Son of our Heavenly Father, as we are the sons of our earthly fathers. God is the Father of our spirits, which are clothed upon by fleshly bodies, begotten for us by our earthly fathers. Jesus is our elder brother spirit clothed upon with an earthly body begotten by the Father of our spirits. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 2, September 28, 1862)

Past LDS Pres. Joseph F. Smith wrote:

Among the spirit children of Elohim the firstborn was and is Jehovah or Jesus Christ to whom all others are juniors .... There is no impropriety, therefore, in speaking of Jesus Christ as the elder brother of the rest of humankind.... Let it not be forgotten, however, that He is essentially greater than any and all others by reason (1) of His seniority as the oldest or firstborn; (2) of His unique status in the flesh as the offspring of a mortal mother and of an immortal, or resurrected and glorified, Father; (3) of His selection and foreordination as the one and only Redeemer and Savior of the race; and (4) of His transcendent sinlessness. (Improvement Era, vol. 19, pp. 941-942, June 30, 1916)

On February 8, 1857 Brigham Young explained how God came to be God and fathered Jesus:

Now to the facts in the case; all the difference between Jesus Christ and any other man that ever lived on the earth, from the days of Adam until now, is simply this, the Father, after He had once been in the flesh, and lived as we live, obtained His exaltation, attained to thrones, gained the ascendancy over principalities and powers, and had the knowledge and power to createÃ¢â‚¬â€to bring forth and organize the elements upon natural principles. This He did after His ascension, or His glory, or His eternity, and was actually classed with the Gods, with the beings who create, with those who have kept the celestial law while in the flesh, and again obtained their bodies. Then He was prepared to commence the work of creation, as the Scriptures teach. It is all here in the Bible; I am not telling you a word but what is contained in that book.

Things were first created spiritually; the Father actually begat the spirits, and they were brought forth and lived with Him. Then He commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as He had been created in this flesh himself, by partaking of the course material that was organized and composed this earth, until His system was charged with it, consequently the tabernacles of His children were organized from the coarse materials of this earth.

When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came Himself and favoured that spirit [Mary] with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Saviour was begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same Being who is the Father of our spirits, and that is all the organic difference between Jesus Christ and you and me. And a difference there is between our Father and us consists in that He has gained His exaltation, and has obtained eternal lives. The principle of eternal lives is an eternal existence, eternal duration, eternal exaltation. Endless are His kingdoms, endless His thrones and His dominions, and endless are His posterity; they never will cease to multiply from this time henceforth and forever. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, pp. 217-218)

Apostle George Q. Cannon preached that Christ, Satan and all the mortals born on this earth are actually brothers and sisters from a pre-earth life:
We are here to be tested and tried. There is a war between Satan and God. We are brethren and sisters of Satan as well as of Jesus. It may be startling doctrine to many to say this; but Satan is our brother. Jesus is our brother. We are the children of God. God begot us in the spirit in the eternal worlds. This fight that I speak of arose, as we are told, over the question as to how man should work out his earthly probation in a tabernacle of flesh and bones and obtain redemption. Satan differed from God, and he rebelled. We are told in the scriptures that he drew after him one third of the family of God. They thought his plan better than that of the Savior Jesus Christ. From that time until the present he has been struggling to destroy the plans of Jehovah, and to seduce the children of menÃ¢â‚¬â€his brothers and sistersÃ¢â‚¬â€from their allegiance to God. (Apostle George Q. Cannon, March 11th, 1894, Collected Discourses, compiled by Brian Stuy, vol. 4, p. 23,)

JESUS ACHIEVED GODHOOD

Speaking in 1949, LDS leader Milton R. Hunter, of the First Council of the Seventy, stated:

You and I were sons and daughters of our Eternal Parents in the spirit world. In fact, all the people in this world were of that family, and Jesus Christ was the Firstborn.

During his pre-mortal life Jesus Christ rose to the status of Godhood. At that time he was foreordained to be the Savior of this world. Father Abraham was privileged to see in vision the grand council in heaven that was held prior to the peopling of this earth, and he saw, as the Lord showed him, "many of the noble and great ones." (LDS Conference Report, October 1949, p. 69)
Apostle James E. Talmage taught:

Through the sure word of revealed truth we learn of the actual relationship between God and man, and that this is the literal relationship of parent to child. The spirits of men are the offspring of Deity, born in the antemortal world and endowed with the Divine birthright of eternal development and progression, in which course of advancement the life on earth is but a stage. ... To become perfect as God is perfect is to attain the state, power, dignity, and authority of godship. Plainly there is a way provided by which the child of God may follow the footsteps of the Father, and in timeÃ¢â‚¬â€sometime in the distant eternitiesÃ¢â‚¬â€be as that Divine Father is. Even as Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh, endured the experiences of mortality, passed the portals of death and became a resurrected Being, so the Father before Him had trodden the same path of progression from manhood to Godhood, and today sits enthroned in the heavens by right of achievement. He is the Eternal Father and with Him, crowned with glory and majesty, is the eternal Mother. They twain are the parents of the spirit-children for whose schooling in the lessons of mortality this earth was framed. ... Eternal exaltation is the assured attainment of those who obey in its fulness the whole law of the Gospel of Christ; theirs it is to become like unto their Celestial Parents.

"Then shall they be Gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be Gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them." (Doctrine and Covenants 132:20). (The Essential James E. Talmage, edited by James P. Harris, pp. 132-133)

LITERAL SON OF GOD

While Mormon leaders assert that they believe in the virgin birth they have changed the definition. The LDS Church teaches that God the Father has a physical, tangible, resurrected body and that God literally sired Jesus in the same physical sense that any other man begets a child. Consequently "the virgin birth" is redefined to mean Mary had intercourse with a god, not a mortal, in order to literally conceive the baby Jesus. In a 1916 doctrinal statement by the LDS First Presidency we read:

1. "Father" as Literal Parent ... God the Eternal Father, whom we designate by the exalted name-title "Elohim," is the literal Parent of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and of the spirits of the human race. Elohim is the Father in every sense in which Jesus Christ is so designated, and distinctively He is the Father of spirits. ... Jesus Christ is the Son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily offspring; that is to say, Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh, and which body died on the cross and was afterward taken up by the process of resurrection, and is now the immortalized tabernacle of the eternal spirit of our Lord and Savior. (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, vol. 4, pp. 1670-1671)

In a Christmas message to the general membership, the LDS First Presidency wrote:

A CHRISTMAS GREETING FROM THE FIRST PRESIDENCY

The Latter-day Saints unite with the people of every creed and tongue and race in the general commemoration of the day observed throughout Christendom as the anniversary of the God-Man's earthly birth. ... We bow to Him as the veritable Son of the living God in the fullest sense of the hallowed term. As Mary was His saintly mother, so the Mighty God was His everlasting and literal Father. He was "the only begotten" of Deity, in the flesh, to die that man may live. This we once more affirm and declare as a glorious truth and a fundamental of "Mormon" faith. (Messages of the First Presidency, Vol. 4, pp. 318-319)

Apostle Bruce R. McConkie explained:

God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says. (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, p. 742)

Apostle McConkie explained that there was nothing figurative about MaryÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s conception:

And so it is with the Eternal Father and the mortal birth of the Eternal Son. The Father is a Father is a Father; he is not a spirit essence or nothingness to which the name Father is figuratively applied. And the Son is a Son is a Son; he is not some transient emanation from a divine essence, but a literal, living offspring of an actual Father. ... There is nothing figurative or hidden or beyond comprehension in our Lord's coming into mortality. He is the Son of God in the same sense and way that we are the sons of mortal fathers. (The Promised Messiah, pp. 468-469)
In the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, under the heading JESUS CHRIST we read:

He was able to accomplish his unique ministryÃ¢â‚¬â€a ministry of reconciliation and salvationÃ¢â‚¬â€because of who and what he was. President Ezra Taft Benson stated, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was fathered by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost. He is the Son of the Eternal Father!" ... From Mary, a mortal woman, Jesus inherited mortality, including the capacity to die. From his exalted Father he inherited immortality, the capacity to live forever. (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, vol. 2, pp.724-725)
On another page of the same volume we read: The fact of JesusÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ being the literal Son of God in the flesh is crucial to the ATONEMENT,...
For Latter-day Saints, the paternity of Jesus is not obscure. He was the literal, biological son of an immortal, tangible Father and Mary, a mortal woman (see Virgin Birth). Jesus is the only person born who deserves the title "the Only Begotten Son of God" ... He was not the son of the Holy Ghost; it was only through the Holy Ghost that the power of the Highest overshadowed Mary (Luke 1:35; 1 Ne. 11:19). (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, vol. 2, p. 729)

Joseph Fielding Smith wrote:

Throughout the scriptures he is spoken of as the Son of God. The story of his birth is plain and free from mystery, insofar as the fact is made that he is in very deed the Son of God. We are emphatically informed that he was begotten by the Father. He recognized God as his Father. He referred to himself as being the Son of God. This is not a mystery. ... It is true of Jesus Christ, as it is of any other son, he was begotten in the image of his Father and in his case his Father is the Eternal God, and the scriptures inform us that Jesus was the express image of his Father. (The Restoration of All Things, p. 61

Apostle McConkie declared that Jesus was begotten in the normal way:

And so, in the final analysis it is the faithful saints, those who have testimonies of the truth and divinity of this great latter-day work, who declare our Lord's generation to the world. Their testimony is that Mary's son is God's Son; that he was conceived and begotten in the normal way; that he took upon himself mortality by the natural birth processes; that he inherited the power of mortality from his mother and the power of immortality from his FatherÃ¢â‚¬â€in consequence of all of which he was able to work out the infinite and eternal atonement. (The Promised Messiah, Bruce McConkie, pp. 472-473)

Apostle James E. Talmage wrote:

That Child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father, not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof; and, the offspring from that association of supreme sanctity, celestial Sireship, and pure though mortal maternity, was of right to be called the "Son of the Highest." In His nature would be combined the powers of Godhood with the capacity and possibilities of mortality; and this through the ordinary operation of the fundamental law of heredity, declared of God, demonstrated by science, and admitted by philosophy, that living beings shall propagateÃ¢â‚¬â€after their kind. The Child Jesus was to inherit the physical, mental, and Spiritual traits, tendencies, and powers that characterized His parentsÃ¢â‚¬â€one immortal and glorifiedÃ¢â‚¬â€God, the other humanÃ¢â‚¬â€woman. (Jesus the Christ, James E. Talmage, p. 81

Jesus According to the Bible

The Bible declares that Jesus is fully God, not a subordinate deity. He eternally exists as God and is our creator. John 1:1-4, 14

was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. ... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Isaiah 9:6

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. John 8:58

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. Hebrews 13:

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever. Colossians 1:16-17

For by him [Christ] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
For more on the Biblical view of God and Jesus read the books The Forgotten Trinity, by James White, The Counterfeit Gospel of Mormonism and The New Mormon Challenge.

Ã¢â‚¬ÂI already posted a far more accurate version of what Mormons believe about this. Bruce R McConkie was wrong about many aspects of Mormon thought or doctrine. He was not authorized to speak for the Mormon church in terms of authenticating doctrine. This reamined his own opinion. He was taken to task by then the president of the Mormon church and their top governing body (The Quorum of The 12 Apostles) for publishing items as official doctrine that were not. he always posted in support of his father-in-law who was a future president of the church. They both sided with Brigham Young on this issue. But of I posted this already. You are doing what is often typical or critics, postinng a quote from one individual as if this establishes Mormon doctrine.

An=d by the way, 1985 is a long time ago in terms of the shift the Mormon church appears to be taking.Ã¢â‚¬Â

Geode,

I pray that you understand that I'm not your enemy. What I am doing here is what that Presbyterian minister should have done--get you to accept the true Jesus Christ and get you saved. I don't want you to spend an eternity in hell. Therefore, I will tell you the truth. You are not saved! If you were, you would not be reluctant to denounce Joseph Smith as a false prophet and the Mormon jesus as a false god. (As an aside, recently, the Presbyterian Church passed a resolution that g*y and lesbians living with same s@x partners can be pastors. God says that they should be put to death, but your church says they can be pastors. Both the Bible and the Presbyterian Church can't be correct. Do you agree? Please answer.

I'm sorry but I find your posting to be insincere. You were not present during my interview with that Presbyterian elder and you do not know what he asked and what I answered yet you presume to know and judge me according to what you have concocted upon your own. Your approach is not in my opinion appropriate for the behavior of a Christian seeking to have a conversation with another Christian, which I am. But you have taken it upon yourself to pronounce me to not be such, and I guess this is what you feel gives you license to post as you have done. My guess is that this is in part why you have elicited anger from Mormons (and JWs and perhaps even Presbyterians or anybody else who disagrees with you) that you have approached in the past. A more civil approach would have made for better conversations. As I have already said, your approach is not one that I think anyone would welcome and I doubt it has been successful in bringing much of anyone to Christ. I have no need of your advice and counsel in his regard for I am already a believing Christian as I have plainly posted. But that is apparently not good enough for you and so you continue in the same way you started out. I have said that I do not believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and that he made false claims. How is that not meeting your standards? I have said that the Mormons have a concept of Jesus that came to be one of the reasons that caused me to leave them. But now you seem to be claiming that I am a Presbyterian and a Mormon at the same time. I guess this is simply to get in some digs at me from both directions? I interviewed for membership in that Presbyterian congregation and was accepted, but declined to follow through. On the other hand they were rather unlike some other Presbyterian congregations I had heard about and remained quite biblically-centered. I assume they carry on that tradition, but it has been 23 years since I worshipped with them

I do not agree that God says that g*y and lesbian people should be put to death, but thanks for sharing this idea as it most certainly is telling and is consistent with your posting on other matters. So now we have you apparently claiming that Mormons and Presbyterians are not of God and presumably they all are not Christians in your opinion. Care to add to this basic Ã¢â‚¬Å“No True ScotsmanÃ¢â‚¬Â approach that appears to be the mainstay of your thinking? I think I will rely upon ChristÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s teachings and not the opinions of TeeJay. I am somewhat uncomfortable with G*ys and lesbians being ordained as pastors, but since Christ apparently never commented upon h*m*s*xuality I think I will assume that it was not exactly something that concerned Him all that much. He did say to love your neighbors, and I have had g*y friends and neighbors. Quite frankly I do not detect the Holy Spirit in the way you post, so if I were to take the approach you take with me I would doubt that you are saved. But that is where we apparently differ, I accept your word and give you the benefit of a doubt. I am non-denominational at the moment. But if you belong to a denomination with others that think as you do, please let me know what it might be so I can avoid ever making the mistake of seeking worship with them for I would have to wonder if I would find the Holy Spirit present.

Concerning the father s@x with Mary subject, please read the following. Geode, what I don't want to hear is an attack on the author. Rather, I want you to attack the validity of her assertions. If they are true, that's what matters.

I actually have had quite a bit of respect for Sandra Tanner over the past few decades. She and her late husband Jerald at least attempted to be honest in their approach to the LDS church and remained relatively objective. As a Christian I respect honestly and think it shoudl always be sought. At times I have learned things from them that I could not get from official LDS sources. On the other hand I have not always agreed with the Tanners. Their publishing the official church Handbook of Instructions on their website a few years ago was interesting, as since I had parted company from the Mormons I no longer was in a leadership position and privy to the latest editions. The general membership never is privy to this handbook. However, I could see the LDS church point of view as well in that it was not appropriate to post it.

But you have not replied to my last posts but simply provided a huge chunk of Ã¢â‚¬Å“cut and pasteÃ¢â‚¬Â instead. This really was not necessary as I have already commented on most of this already. The one thing I would disagree with Sandra Tanner about is her opening sentence. She starts out Ã¢â‚¬Å“Mormonism teachesÃ¢â‚¬Â when she should have said that Mormons in the past have taught these things. Then she basically takes a lot of passages from Mormons in the past as if this proves what Mormons currently teach. Look at the antiquity of most of the quotes. I have already agreed that many Mormons thought as is posted here and taught such in the past and that some presently hold to these concepts. All of this this really does not refute anything I have posted previously.

President Hinckley stirred things up in an interview in TIME magazine several years ago. Many Mormons were bewildered by what he said, but I think his intent was not one of being cloudy on Mormon doctrine, he was attempting to change its direction. The link here is from a very pro-Mormon site. I do not agree with them in some of what I have read but they had the quotes so I took it from them.

Q: Just another related question that comes up is the statements in the King Follet discourse by the Prophet.

A: Yeah

Q: ...about that, God the Father was once a man as we were. This is something that Christian writers are always addressing. Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are?

Notice the ellipsis starting this question. This may be the ellipsis Ms. Ray was referring to, but there is no indication of such.

Also, pay particular note to the actual question being asked.

A: I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it. I haven't heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don't know. I don't know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don't know a lot about it and I don't know that others know a lot about it.

The answer is correct; we do not teach in our classes today that God was a man just like us. We emphasize trying to pattern our lives after Jesus Christ so we may reach our full potential of becoming like God is. As for not discussing the concept in public discourse, all one has to do is examine Conference talks to see the truth of the answer.

So here is a very Mormon site telling of how their teaching and theology has evolved.

Below is a very recent blog (this past week) from a Mormon writer Jana Riess:

Ã¢â‚¬Â¦.I make the point that sometimes it is difficult for those on the outside of Mormonism to realize just how much change is happening, not just socially in the form of political success or cultural assimilation, but theologically too:

Many of MormonismÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s critics fail to appreciate the ways that Mormon theology has changed through the years, often by way of the guidance that the LDS president claims to receive from God through Ã¢â‚¬Å“continuing revelation.Ã¢â‚¬Â (The teachings of a previous era are almost never explicitly repudiated, however.) For example, the doctrine that African Americans bear the Ã¢â‚¬Å“curse of CainÃ¢â‚¬Â is certainly not LDS doctrine today, though it was in the days of Brigham Young.

Some theological teachings are more opaque. For example, Mormon theology has traditionally dictated that human beings will become gods and that God himself was once human. An apparent disclaimer of this early Mormon teaching came when LDS prophet Gordon B. Hinckley appeared on Larry King Live in 1998 and, when asked whether Mormons believe that God was once a man, answered, Ã¢â‚¬Å“I wouldnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t say that.Ã¢â‚¬Â He had given similarly vague denials the previous year to reporters from Time and the San Francisco Chronicle.

But what one LDS leader says to the media is not as reliable a gauge of the changing winds of LDS theology as the wording used in the LDS ChurchÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s twice-annual General Conference, when many worldwide Mormon leaders address the faithful by satellite or streaming Internet. In that forum, itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s been rare to hear leaders talk about godhood recently unless they are quoting earlier leaders on the subjectÃ¢â‚¬â€and even that happens less frequently than it used to.

An investigation of the official LDS website confirms this trend. From 2006 to 2011, the word godhood appeared only ten times in official General Conference talks, church magazines and manuals. Of those cases, two quoted former LDS prophet Spencer W. Kimball about human beings becoming gods; one quoted former prophet David O. McKay on the subject; one cited midcentury leader Hugh B. Brown; and two drew from former apostle Marion G. Romney (a cousin of George Romney, MittÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s father). Two others referred to the Ã¢â‚¬Å“godhoodÃ¢â‚¬Â of Jesus Christ. Only one magazine pieceÃ¢â‚¬â€written anonymouslyÃ¢â‚¬â€asserted that human beings Ã¢â‚¬Å“have within us the seeds of godhood,Ã¢â‚¬Â while an article about recovering from romantic breakups mentioned godhood twice as a goal for righteous human beings. Interestingly, that article was not written by a high-ranking international leader.

By comparison, church talks and materials from the 1970s and 1980s employed the concept freely in relation to the eternal destiny of men and women. As then-prophet Spencer W. Kimball said in 1976, Ã¢â‚¬Å“Our Heavenly Father has a plan for manÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s growth from infancy to godhood.Ã¢â‚¬Â

Does that mean that Mormons no longer believe that they can become gods? It is difficult to say. Many Mormons no longer think about the topic at all; it has become an insignificant aspect of contemporary theological expression. The idea may someday fade away, just as the churchÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s encouragement of plural marriageÃ¢â‚¬â€once a cornerstone not just of Mormon practice but of its belief systemÃ¢â‚¬â€has faded away.

I'm sorry but I find your posting to be insincere. You were not present during my interview with that Presbyterian elder and you do not know what he asked and what I answered yet you presume to know and judge me according to what you have concocted upon your own.

Geode, to be "sincere" one must be free from deceit, hypocrisy, and falseness--according to the dictionary. So to be "insincere" is to be deceitful, hypocritical, and false. Surely, you are not accusing me of these things? If so, can you be specific and point out where I am insincere.

True, I was not present at your interview. But I am present now in my interview, so to speak, with you. And you are having much difficulty answering the questions I ask. Thus far, you have failed to answer these questions. By your failure to answer, I justifiably "presume" that you have not left the Mormon Church. We can easily resolve our dilemma by answering the following questions.
Is Jesus God--the God who is, who was, and who is to come?
Is Jesus the brother of Satan?

Your approach is not in my opinion appropriate for the behavior of a Christian seeking to have a conversation with another Christian, which I am.

Truth is offensive to those who hate the Truth. Jesus said, I am the Truth (John 14:6). Thus we have the Apostle John writing: Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also (1 John 2:22-23). Who is the Christ? For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace (Isa. 9:6). Does this sound like Satans brother? I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last (Rev. 1:11). I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive for evermoreÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ (Rev. 1:17-18).

The Alpha and the Omega is God. Question: When was God dead?

But you have taken it upon yourself to pronounce me to not be such, and I guess this is what you feel gives you license to post as you have done. My guess is that this is in part why you have elicited anger from Mormons (and JWs and perhaps even Presbyterians or anybody else who disagrees with you) that you have approached in the past.

My pronouncement that you are not a Christian is based upon what you have posted and your failure to declare that Jesus is God, that the Mormon jesus is a false god, that Joseph Smith is a false prophet, and that the Mormon Church is a false cult. I pray to God that when I preach truth it will elicit acceptance. But sadly, preaching truth most often elicits anger and resentment. If you are a Christian and preach the Truth, getting people angry at you is an occupational hazard. If Jesus had preached a Joel Olsteen type message, He would never have been crucified and the world would have loved Him. But Jesus was the Rock of offense. To the hard hearted, He was offensive.

I dont want JWs, Mormons, or Presbyterians agreeing with me. I want them, and you, to agree with God.

A more civil approach would have made for better conversations. As I have already said, your approach is not one that I think anyone would welcome and I doubt it has been successful in bringing much of anyone to Christ.

You deem my approach not civil because it disagrees with your Mormon beliefs. My aim is not to have a better conversation. My aim is to get you to accept the true Jesus Christ and denounce the false Mormon jesus. Thus far, I have been unsuccessful. I could be a nicer-than-God Christian and be nice, but then I would be sending you to Hell with hug and a kiss on the cheek. And this nicer-than-God evangelism will fill a stadium. But after Jesus preaching Truth for three years, He was left with twelve followers. If only you and Joel Olsteen were there to advise Him. (By the way, nice is not in the Bible.)

I have no need of your advice and counsel in his regard for I am already a believing Christian as I have plainly posted. But that is apparently not good enough for you and so you continue in the same way you started out. I have said that I do not believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and that he made false claims. How is that not meeting your standards? I have said that the Mormons have a concept of Jesus that came to be one of the reasons that caused me to leave them. But now you seem to be claiming that I am a Presbyterian and a Mormon at the same time. I guess this is simply to get in some digs at me from both directions? I interviewed for membership in that Presbyterian congregation and was accepted, but declined to follow through. On the other hand they were rather unlike some other Presbyterian congregations I had heard about and remained quite biblically-centered. I assume they carry on that tradition, but it has been 23 years since I worshipped with them

Joseph Smith was not a prophet. But is he a FALSE prophet? If so, then can you confess that the Mormon jesus is a false god and that the Mormon Church is a cult? Then can you admit that if you accepted the Mormon jesus, then you cant possibly be saved?

What Mormons believe is not relevant to the issue. The average Mormon is deceived as to what the Mormon Church is all about. Today, as I write this post, the Mormon Church teaches that God the Father is flesh and bone, that Jesus is the brother of Satan, and we are saved by works and not by grace, that Jesus is not God, that good Mormons will become gods, that matter is eternal, just to name a few. All these beliefs are contrary to the Bible. Claims that are contrary to the Bible cant be true. Therefore what Mormons believe cant be true.

I did not post that you are a Mormon and a Presbyterian at the same time. I posted that its impossible to be a Mormon and a Presbyterian at the same time. Presbyterians cant possibly be Biblically centered and disagree with and violate Lev. 18:22 & 29; 20:13. Thats not possible.

I do not agree that God says that g*y and lesbian people should be put to death, but thanks for sharing this idea as it most certainly is telling and is consistent with your posting on other matters.

Actually, you are not disagreeing with me. Rather, you are disagreeing with God. See Lev. 18:22, Lev. 18:29, and Lev. 20:13. Now you should not agree with me nor I with you. Rather we should both be like the Bereans and search the Scriptures to see whats true. If you can show me a passage where God rescinded His command to execute h*m*sexuals, then I can agree with you and we will both be obedient to God. Can you provide one?

So now we have you apparently claiming that Mormons and Presbyterians are not of God and presumably they all are not Christians in your opinion. Care to add to this basic No True Scotsman approach that appears to be the mainstay of your thinking?

No. Im claiming that any cult that teaches that God the Father is flesh and bone and that Jesus is the brother of Satan is a false cult. Can you agree with me on this?

I think I will rely upon Christs teachings and not the opinions of TeeJay. I am somewhat uncomfortable with G*ys and lesbians being ordained as pastors, but since Christ apparently never commented upon h*m*s*xuality I think I will assume that it was not exactly something that concerned Him all that much. He did say to love your neighbors, and I have had g*y friends and neighbors. Quite frankly I do not detect the Holy Spirit in the way you post, so if I were to take the approach you take with me I would doubt that you are saved. But that is where we apparently differ, I accept your word and give you the benefit of a doubt. I am non-denominational at the moment. But if you belong to a denomination with others that think as you do, please let me know what it might be so I can avoid ever making the mistake of seeking worship with them for I would have to wonder if I would find the Holy Spirit present.

If my posts agree with the Bible, then they are not my opinions. When I post I try to back it up with Scripture. And I will tell you why you are uncomfortable with G*ys and lesbians being ordained as pastors. God wrote His law on your heart, and you know in your being that h*m*s*xuality is sinful. But God says that h*m*s*xuality is not just a sin; its a crime punishable by death.

Now I will address your concern that Jesus did not mention h*m*s*xuality. Jesus did say, For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled (Mat. 5:18). I just looked out the window, and the earth is still here. I dont think heaven has passed away. And all is not fulfilled. So can we both agree that Gods law has not passed away?

As far as Jesus not mentioning h*m*s*xuality, neither did He mention kidnapping, deadly negligence, assault of a parent, capital perjury, b*stiality, incest, rape, human sacrifice, or abortionall of which are death penalty crimes commanded by God. Does this mean that the punishment for these crimes has been done away with because Jesus did not mention them specifically?

The reason you do not detect the Holy Spirit is that spiritual matters are discerned by Christians who have the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 2:15). If you loved your g*y friends and neighbors, you would tell them the truththat they are perverts, that they are sinning against God, and that they will spend an eternity apart from their Creator God. God says just the opposite of what you think: But those who rebuke the wicked will have delight, and a good blessing will come upon them (Prov. 24:25). And, an open rebuke is better than love carefully concealed (Prov. 27:5). In the Book of Acts, there were many believing Pharisees. Do you think this is because Jesus was nice and did not rebuke for fear that people would hate Him? Or do you think that his extremely harsh rebuke (Woe to you Scribes and Pharisees) in Matthew 23? I favor the latter.

I actually have had quite a bit of respect for Sandra Tanner over the past few decades. She and her late husband Jerald at least attempted to be honest in their approach to the LDS church and remained relatively objective. As a Christian I respect honestly and think it should always be sought. At times I have learned things from them that I could not get from official LDS sources. On the other hand I have not always agreed with the Tanners. Their publishing the official church Handbook of Instructions on their website a few years ago was interesting, as since I had parted company from the Mormons I no longer was in a leadership position and privy to the latest editions. The general membership never is privy to this handbook. However, I could see the LDS church point of view as well in that it was not appropriate to post it.

First you write that as a Christian I respect honesty and think it should always be sought. Then you fault the Tanners for exposing the Mormon Church by publishing the official church Handbook of Instructions. Can you see the contradiction? Its posts such as this, where you are protective of the Mormon Church which lead me judge you have not left the Mormon Church. Why is the general membership not privy to this handbook? What have they got to hide?

But you have not replied to my last posts but simply provided a huge chunk of cut and paste instead. This really was not necessary as I have already commented on most of this already. The one thing I would disagree with Sandra Tanner about is her opening sentence. She starts out Mormonism teaches when she should have said that Mormons in the past have taught these things. Then she basically takes a lot of passages from Mormons in the past as if this proves what Mormons currently teach. Look at the antiquity of most of the quotes. I have already agreed that many Mormons thought as is posted here and taught such in the past and that some presently hold to these concepts. All of this really does not refute anything I have posted previously.

As I posted before, the Mormon Church does not tell its followers what its all about. Most Mormons I talk to have no idea what Mormonism is. They are deceived. Here again you are defending a false cult that you claim to have left. Further evidence of this is that you fail to acknowledge the simple questions I ask.

President Hinckley stirred things up in an interview in TIME magazine several years ago. Many Mormons were bewildered by what he said, but I think his intent was not one of being cloudy on Mormon doctrine, he was attempting to change its direction. The link here is from a very pro-Mormon site. I do not agree with them in some of what I have read but they had the quotes so I took it from them.

The average rank and file Mormon may have been bewildered by what President Hinkley say, but the Mormon Church leaders were not bewildered. He just revealed too much of what the Mormon Church is all about.

You seem to have no trouble saying that you do not agree with them. What I want to hear from you is answers to the following:

Is Jesus God?
Is Father God flesh and bone?
Did Jesus exist eternity past?
Is Jesus a brother of Satan?
Is Joseph Smith a false prophet?
Is Mormonism a false cult?

And if you can answer these questions correctly, then can you denounce Joseph Smith as a false prophet. Can you denounce Mormonism as a false cult. Can you confess that you worshipped and accepted a false jesus that does not exist except in the mind of Joseph Smith?

[url="http://www.fairlds.o...rine.html"]TIME article So here is a very Mormon site telling of how their teaching and theology has evolved. Below is a very recent blog (this past week) from a Mormon writer Jana Riess:

If you wish to continue to argue with Mormons of the past and claim it is current, go ahead. If you wish to honestly seek out what they believe I think that will be a better approach.

Mormonism was founded by a false prophet, a liar and a con-man. It was founded on a lie. A lie can only be defended with another lie. A lie can only be refuted with truth. And after the lie is refuted by the Truth, then one has to humble himself and denounce the lie for what it is. You are extremely reluctant to do this. A lie cant evolve into truth unless the lie is first denounced as a lie. The Word of God is truth. If it evolved one iota, then it would no longer be true.

Now, lets examine Mormonism and see if it has evolved:

2. LDS MANUALS
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, 2007.
"God Himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret." (p. 40)
"Here, then, is eternal lifeto know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, . . ." (p. 221)

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young, 1997.
God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost constitute the Godhead. President Brigham Young taught the Latter-day Saints to worship God the Father and address prayers to Him in the name of Jesus Christ. He taught further that God the Father was once a man on another planet who "passed the ordeals we are now passing through; he has received an experience, has suffered and enjoyed, and knows all that we know regarding the toils, sufferings, life and death of this mortality." (p. 29)

The great architect, manager and superintendent, controller and dictator [absolute ruler] who guides this work is out of sight to our natural eyes. He [God] lives on another world; he is in another state of existence; he has passed the ordeals we are now passing through; he has received an experience, has suffered and enjoyed, and knows all that we know regarding the toils, sufferings, life and death of this mortality, for he has passed through the whole of it, and has received his crown and exaltation and holds the keys and the power of this Kingdom; . . . (p. 30)
God is the source, the fountain of all intelligence, no matter who possesses it, whether man upon the earth, the spirits in the spirit-world, the angels that dwell in the eternities of the Gods, or the most inferior intelligence among the devils in hell. All have derived what intelligence, light, power, and existence they have from Godfrom the same source from which we have received ours. (p. 31)

The doctrine that God was once a man and has progressed to become a God is unique to this Church. How do you feel, knowing that God, through His own experience, "knows all that we know regarding the toils [and] sufferings" of mortality? (p. 34)

We receive these truths, and go on from glory to glory, . . . gaining a knowledge of all things, and becoming Gods, even Sons of God. (p. 55)
Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another's sleeve, . . . will never be capable of becoming Gods. They cannot rule themselves, to say nothing of ruling others, . . . They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold scepters of glory, majesty, and power in the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, . . . (p. 288)

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: John Taylor, 2001.

In one point of view, man appears very poor, weak, . . . In another point of view, we look at him as emanating from the Godsas a God in embryoas an eternal being who had an existence before he came here, . . . He [man] is a God in embryo, and possesses within him a spark of that eternal flame which was struck from the blaze of God's eternal fire in the eternal world, and is placed here upon the earth . . .

If we take man, he is said to have been made in the image of God, for the simple reason that he is a son of God,. . . He did not originate from a chaotic mass of matter, moving or inert, but came forth possessing in an embryonic state, all the faculties and powers of a God. And when he shall be perfected, and have progressed to maturity, he will be like his Fathera God, being indeed His offspring. As the horse, the ox, the sheep, and every living creature, including man, propagates its own species and perpetuates its own kind, so does God perpetuate his. (pp. 2-3)

It is for the exaltation of man to this state of superior intelligence and Godhead that the mediation and atonement of Jesus Christ is instituted; and that noble being, man, made in the image of God, is rendered capable not only of being a son of man, but also a son of God, . . . and is rendered capable of becoming a God, possessing the power, the majesty, the exaltation and the position of a God. (p. 5)

[see also pp. 13, 28, 82, 185, 187, 225]

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Heber J. Grant, 2002.

. . . if we examine the commandments that are given to us as members of the Church of God, we will find that each and every one of those commandments has been given for the express purpose that we may be benefitted, that we may be educated, that we may be qualified and prepared to go back and dwell in the presence of our Heavenly Father. These duties and obligations are calculated to make us godlike in our dispositions. They are calculated to make Gods of us, and to fit and qualify us that we may become, as it is promised that we can become, joint heirs with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and dwell with Him in the presence of God the Eternal Father throughout all the countless ages of eternity. (p. 30)
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Spencer W. Kimball, 2006.

[Spencer W. Kimball] taught that the gospel is "a way of life, the plan of personal salvation, and is based upon personal responsibility. It is developed for man, the offspring of God. Man is a god in embryo and has in him the seeds of godhood, and he can, if he will, rise to great heights." (p. 1)

"Now," said the Lord, ". . . If you will agree to exercise control over your desires and continue to grow toward perfection and godhood by the plan which I shall provide, . . . I will make it possible for you to eventually return to me . . ." (p. 2)

[After death] . . . our spirits would go to the spirit world, where we would further train for our eternal destiny. After a period, there would be a resurrection or a reunion of the body and the spirit, which would render us immortal and make possible our further climb toward perfection and godhood. (p. 3)

In order to reach the goal of eternal life and exaltation and godhood, one must be initiated into the kingdom by baptism, . . . endowed and sealed in the house of God by the prophet . . . and one must live a life of righteousness . . .

Jesus perfected his life and became our Christ. Priceless blood of a god was shed, and he became our Savior; his perfected life was given . . . (p. 5)
There are two basic requirements every soul must fulfill or he cannot attain to the great blessings offered. He must receive the ordinances and he must be faithful [to be exalted], . . .

"Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting . . . then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them." (D&C 132:20)
When one realized the vastness, the richness, the glory of that "all". . .it is worth all it costs in patience, faith, sacrifice, sweat and tears. The blessings of eternity contemplated in this "all" bring men immortality and everlasting life, eternal growth, divine leadership, eternal increase, perfection, and with it all, godhood. (p. 9)

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: David O. McKay, 2003.

He [David O,. McKay] called the home the "cell-unit of society" and declared that "parenthood is next to Godhood." (p.xxvii)
"The divinity of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is shown in its organization as well as in its teachings. Godhood, brotherhood, servicethese three guiding principles . . . permeate all our Church activity." (p. 21)
Gospel Principles, 2009.

All men and women are literally the sons and daughters of God. "Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body" (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335).

. . . Because we are the spiritual children of God, we have inherited the potential to develop His divine qualities. (p. 9)
We were not all alike in heaven. We know, for example, that we were sons and daughters of heavenly parents--males and females . . . (p. 10)
We learned that if we followed His plan, we would become like Him. We would be resurrected; we would have all power in heaven and on earth; we would become heavenly parents and have spirit children just as He does (see D&C 132:19-20). (p. 11)
The Lord has said that if we are true and faithful, we will enter into our exaltation. We will become like our Heavenly Father. (See D&C 132:19-20.) (p. 223)

Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. . . . If we prove faithful to the Lord, we will live in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom of heaven. We will become exalted, to live with Heavenly Father in eternal families. (p. 275)

Our Heavenly Father is perfect, and He glories in the fact that it is possible for His children to become like Him . . . These are some of the blessings given to exalted people: . . . They [exalted couples] will become gods. (see D&C 132:20-23). They will be united eternally with their righteous family members and will be able to have eternal increase . . . They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ haveall power, glory, dominion, and knowledge (see D&C 132:19-20). (p. 277)

Joseph Smith taught: "It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God. . . . He was once a man like us; . . . God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did" . . . Our Heavenly Father knows our trials, our weaknesses, and our sins. . . . He wants us to succeed even as He did. (p. 279)

Gospel Fundamentals, 2002.

It will help us to remember that our Father in Heaven was once a man who lived on an earth, the same as we do. He became our Father in Heaven by overcoming problems, just as we have to do on this earth. (p. 204)

Father in Heaven: A perfect being who looks like a mortal man but has a resurrected body of flesh and bones. He is the Father of our spirits, to whom we pray. (p. 280)

Doctrines of the Gospel: Student Manual, Religion 430 & 431, 2004.

[Quoting Joseph Smith] "God himself was once as we are now and is an exalted man. . . he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; . . ." (Smith, Teachings, 345-46). (p. 8)

"God made man in his own image and certainly he made woman in the image of his wife-partner" (Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 25). (p. 8)

"That Child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father, not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof; and, the offspring from that association of supreme sanctity, celestial Sireship, and pure though mortal maternity, was of right to be called the 'Son of the Highest.' " (James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ, 81).

"We believe absolutely that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, begotten of God, the first-born in the spirit and the only begotten in the flesh; that He is the Son of God just as much as you and I are the sons of our fathers" (Heber J. Grant, "Analysis of the Articles of Faith," Millennial Star, 5 Jan. 1922, 2). (p. 9)

"All men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother, and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity" (The First Presidency). (p. 14)

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, basing its belief on divine revelation, ancient and modern, proclaims man to be the direct and lineal offspring of Deity. God Himself is an exalted man, perfected, enthroned, and supreme. . . .

"Man is the child of God, formed in the divine image and endowed with divine attributes, and even as the infant son of an earthly father and mother is capable in due time of becoming a man, so the undeveloped offspring of celestial parentage is capable, by experience through ages and aeons, of evolving into a God" (The First Presidency). (p. 17)

Doctrines of the Gospel: Teachers Manual, Religion 430 & 432, 2000.

The Prophet Joseph Smith's first vision in 1820 (see Joseph SmithHistory 1:1120) and the famous King Follett discourse given shortly before Joseph's martyrdom in 1844 (see Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 34362) are significant doctrinal teachings on the nature of God. . .. In the King Follett discourse, Joseph Smith declared that the first principle of the gospel consists of knowing the character of God. Joseph taught that God "was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself" (Teachings, p. 346; or Supporting Statements B on pp. 78 of the student manual). (p. 7)

Jesus stressed the fatherhood of God. . . .We are begotten spirit children of our Heavenly Father. We are actually his offspring. (p. 7)

God is a resurrected, exalted personage of flesh and bone. (p. 8)

A. Jesus Christ is literally the son of God the Eternal Father.

Both the Bible and the Book of Mormon bear witness that Jesus Christ is literally the son of God (see Luke 1:3135; 1 Nephi 11:1422); . . . . Though married to Mary, Joseph was not the father of Jesus; Jesus always turned to Elohim as his Father. . . . Read Joseph Smith Translation, John 1:1, 1314. What attributes did Jesus inherit from his divine Father? (see v. 14). Jesus inherited all of the Father's powerand glory and the ability to live forever. But sinceJesus was also born of Mary, who was mortal, heinherited all the weaknesses of the flesh. Jesus wassubject to temptation, sickness, hunger, thirst, and fatigue (see Mosiah 3:7). This combination of a divine father and a mortal mother endowed Jesus with the qualitiesboth mortal and immortalhe needed to fulfill his unique mission on earth. (p. 9)

Eternal Marriage: Student Manual, Religion 234 and 235, 2003.

[Repeats the same quote from the First Presidency as quoted in Doctrines of the Gospel]
"Man is the child of God, . . . capable, by experience through ages and aeons, of evolving into a God." . . . (p. 167)

Your fatherhood is, in a sense, an apprenticeship to godhood. (p. 202)

The Latter-day Saint Woman: Basic Manual for Women, Part A, 2000.
President Lorenzo Snow taught: "When two Latter-day Saints are united together in marriage, promises are made to them concerning their offspring that reach from eternity to eternity. They are promised that they shall have the power and the right to govern and control and administer salvation and exaltation and glory to their offspring, worlds without end. . . ." (p. 66)

Elder Bruce R. McConkie explained the companionship role of the priesthood and women: "In the true Patriarchal Order man holds the priesthood and is the head of the household, . . . but he cannot attain a fulness of joy here or of eternal reward hereafter alone. Woman stands at his side a joint-inheritor with him in the fulness of all things. Exaltation and eternal increase is her lot as well as his. (D. & C. 131:14.) Godhood is not for men only; it is for men and women together. (D. & C. 132:1920)" (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed. [1966], 844). (p. 91)

Duties and Blessings of the Priesthood: Basic Manual for Priesthood Holders, Part A, 2000.
Eternal marriage is a basic doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ and a very important part of the Lord's plan for us. Without it we cannot be exalted in the celestial kingdom in eternity. . . .
President Spencer W. Kimball said: "Our Heavenly Father has a plan for man's growth from infancy to godhood." (p. 256)

My heart was hard when I had to defend and argue my beliefs, which I thought were based on the Bible. When I was left alone for a time my heart softened enough for God to cause the seed to grow.
[/quote]

ME,

In the church that Geode was attending, they showed the film "The God Makers." Then they asked for Geode's opinion of the film. He told them that much of it was false. This is a lie. I've read the book, "The God Makers," carefully. There are no falsehoods in it. And I challenged him to debate me on this. He refused, because he knows that there are no falsehods in it. He would lose and he knows it.

Geode has blinders on. He keeps referring to what the average rank and file Mormon believes. But I pointed out to him that what the average Mormon believes is irrelevant. The average rank and file Mormon is deceived as to what the Mormon Church is all about. If the Mormon Church revealed their true colors, the average Mormon would run.

Then as a last ditch effort, he claims that the Mormon Church has "evolved" and no longer teaches the doctrine on which the Mormon Church was founded--which is a lie out of the pit of Hell. In my last post to him, I clearly showed him that this is not the case. They still teach that Jesus is Satan's brother and that they can become gods, etc. He has accepted the Mormon jesus--a jesus which he is now unwilling to denounce. He refused to acknowledge that Jesus is God, which is crucial to salvation. His refusal to accept the diety of God is very telling as to where his heart is--steeped in Mormonism

All cults deny the diety of Jesus. Recall the universalist you and debated. When I asked him if Jesus is God, we could not get an answer out of him. The JW's deny the diety of Jesus. The Mormons deny Jesus' deity. Muslims deny the diety of Jesus.

As soon as things quiet down, I'm thinking about opening a thread on the JW's. I hope there are some JW's that will challenge us. If not, you may have to play devil's advocate. Perhaps we can just have a thread titled, "What do you say to a JW visiting your home?" Then it could be a teaching thread rather than a debate.

In the church that Geode was attending, they showed the film "The God Makers." Then they asked for Geode's opinion of the film. He told them that much of it was false. This is a lie. I've read the book, "The God Makers," carefully. There are no falsehoods in it. And I challenged him to debate me on this. He refused, because he knows that there are no falsehods in it. He would lose and he knows it.

Geode has blinders on. He keeps referring to what the average rank and file Mormon believes. But I pointed out to him that what the average Mormon believes is irrelevant. The average rank and file Mormon is deceived as to what the Mormon Church is all about. If the Mormon Church revealed their true colors, the average Mormon would run.

Then as a last ditch effort, he claims that the Mormon Church has "evolved" and no longer teaches the doctrine on which the Mormon Church was founded--which is a lie out of the pit of Hell. In my last post to him, I clearly showed him that this is not the case. They still teach that Jesus is Satan's brother and that they can become gods, etc. He has accepted the Mormon jesus--a jesus which he is now unwilling to denounce. He refused to acknowledge that Jesus is God, which is crucial to salvation. His refusal to accept the diety of God is very telling as to where his heart is--steeped in Mormonism

All cults deny the diety of Jesus. Recall the universalist you and debated. When I asked him if Jesus is God, we could not get an answer out of him. The JW's deny the diety of Jesus. The Mormons deny Jesus' deity. Muslims deny the diety of Jesus.

As soon as things quiet down, I'm thinking about opening a thread on the JW's. I hope there are some JW's that will challenge us. If not, you may have to play devil's advocate. Perhaps we can just have a thread titled, "What do you say to a JW visiting your home?" Then it could be a teaching thread rather than a debate.

TeeJay

You have shown multiple times that you lack the knowledge of Mormonism necessary to know how accurate "The God Maker" is about its claims. I have already responded to some of many of these false claims so you are not telling the truth about me in this regard. I have acknowledged that Jesus is God. Is this a claim made about a post that you just made yesterday, and to which I just now made a response? Just because you do not get an immediate answer does not mean that you can make claims that I will not answer and then make up answers for me. I do not deny the diety of God.

I would kindly ask that you stop bearing false witness about me, it is not approapriate for a Christian to do this.

I hope that you treat ex-JWs better than the way you treat me, and if you start a thread about them you will post a more truthful account of their beliefs than what you have claimed about Mormons.

[quote] name='Geode' timestamp='1317782968' post='75380']
You have shown multiple times that you lack the knowledge of Mormonism necessary to know how accurate "The God Maker" is about its claims. I have already responded to some of many of these false claims so you are not telling the truth about me in this regard. I have acknowledged that Jesus is God. Is this a claim made about a post that you just made yesterday, and to which I just now made a response? Just because you do not get an immediate answer does not mean that you can make claims that I will not answer and then make up answers for me. I do not deny the diety of God.[/quote]

Geode, if you think that I "lack the knowledge of Mormonism necessary to know how accurate 'The God Maker' about its claims," then we can debate it. You keep shying away from this challenge. I'll make it easier for you. Present one issue that is written in "The God Makers" that you deem to be a lie and present it. A lie can only be defended by another lie. Mormonish is founded on a lie.

If I missed you posting that Jesus is God, I apologize. Can you point out the Post Number for me. But I must ask, if Jesus is God, is He God who is, who was, and who is to come? If so, then you should have no problem denouncing the false Mormon jesus who does not exist. No?

[quote]I would kindly ask that you stop bearing false witness about me, it is not approapriate for a Christian to do this.[/quote]

Is it appropriate for anyone to do so, Christian or otherwise? You posted in a previous post that Mormonism has "evolved" and no longer teaches that God was once a man for example. But in my last post I posted very recent Mormon teachings that refute this. How could you assert that you did not know that the Mormon Church is still teaching these things if you are privy to LDS manuals that Mrs. Tanner makes public? Is this why you deemed it inappropriate for Mrs. Tanner to have made them public?

[quote]I hope that you treat ex-JWs better than the way you treat me, and if you start a thread about them you will post a more truthful account of their beliefs than what you have claimed about Mormons.
[/quote]

Geode, if you answer these questions, I will cease from holding your feet to the fire and I and all the angels in heaven will rejoice. A Christian should have no problem or hesitation answering them. You said that "Jesus is God." Any Mormon will agree that Jesus is God. But did Jesus become God? There is a big difference between the Mormon jesus and the Jesus mentioned in the Bible. The Mormon jesus came to be. The real Jesus always was.

Is Jesus God--the God who is, the God who was, and the God who is to come?
Is Father God flesh and bone?
Did Jesus exist eternity past?
Is Jesus the brother of Satan?
Is Joseph Smith a false prophet?
Is Mormonism a false cult?
Is the Mormon jesus a false god who does not exist?
Can men become gods?
Can you denounce the Mormon jesus as a false god?

Geode, if you think that I "lack the knowledge of Mormonism necessary to know how accurate 'The God Maker' about its claims," then we can debate it. You keep shying away from this challenge. I'll make it easier for you. Present one issue that is written in "The God Makers" that you deem to be a lie and present it. A lie can only be defended by another lie. Mormonish is founded on a lie.

If I missed you posting that Jesus is God, I apologize. Can you point out the Post Number for me. But I must ask, if Jesus is God, is He God who is, who was, and who is to come? If so, then you should have no problem denouncing the false Mormon jesus who does not exist. No?

Is it appropriate for anyone to do so, Christian or otherwise? You posted in a previous post that Mormonism has "evolved" and no longer teaches that God was once a man for example. But in my last post I posted very recent Mormon teachings that refute this. How could you assert that you did not know that the Mormon Church is still teaching these things if you are privy to LDS manuals that Mrs. Tanner makes public? Is this why you deemed it inappropriate for Mrs. Tanner to have made them public?

Geode, if you answer these questions, I will cease from holding your feet to the fire and I and all the angels in heaven will rejoice. A Christian should have no problem or hesitation answering them. You said that "Jesus is God." Any Mormon will agree that Jesus is God. But did Jesus become God? There is a big difference between the Mormon jesus and the Jesus mentioned in the Bible. The Mormon jesus came to be. The real Jesus always was.

Is Jesus God--the God who is, the God who was, and the God who is to come?Is Father God flesh and bone?Did Jesus exist eternity past?Is Jesus the brother of Satan?Is Joseph Smith a false prophet?Is Mormonism a false cult?Is the Mormon jesus a false god who does not exist?Can men become gods?Can you denounce the Mormon jesus as a false god?

TeeJay

I have not been shying away from you or what you have posted. I do not recall anything about manuals other than the one I mentioned, but you have posted in several places within multiple threads before so I guess it is possible that I missed some. I do not recall saying that the Mormons no longer teach that God was once a man in quite the blunt fashion you indicate, I posted about President Hinckley making statements saying that he was not sure they taught this concept anymore from TIME magazine. At that time this idea was still in the manuals I personally had in my possession. I also posted something from a few days ago about how the idea is still around but barely mentioned anymore in General Conferences. It most certainly is being de-emphasized. I think I indicated that President Hinckley was trying to move doctrine away from this.

I said that it was not appropriate for the Tanners to post a manual online that was designed and meant to be used only by Mormons leaders. It was never meant to be freely available to even rank and file Mormon members and was never circulated externally. I think that was in the hurling the elephant post that you made.

Sorry, as I said before I really don't like playing your games involving a barrage of questions because you tend to ignore my answers and just pose them again. I have in fact answered many of these already. They are mostly irrelevent to me now because I have moved on from Mormonism. I do not hold to the Mormon beliefs contained in most of them. What is a false cult, the opposite of a true cult?

No, you are wrong, Mormons will not say "Jesus is God."

I borrowed a copy of "The God Makers" and have not had one in my possession for about 20 years. I most certainly will not purchase a copy because I feel that supplying any profit to anybody connected with the book to be against my moral principles. I do not think it is available free online. I do remember some untruths that can only be considered lies due to what the authore most certainly would know.

I remember a claim that Mormons who revealed what went on in their temples were subject to death. This is a lie as it was intended to be taken, that the LDS church threatened members with death for doing this. What they have done is excommunicate members for this. But perhaps the authors would consider the fact that we all are subject to death to be a defense of their claim?

Geode, I've been trying to objectively read as much as I can on this exchange regarding Mormonism. I have tried to find answers within your comments and some have been elusive to me, so I think more inline, direct answers would help move things along. I'm going to take TeeJay's list and answer them based on what I've read in your posts, to be honest most answers are based on inferences. Please fill free to fill in the blanks and correct me where I misinterpreted your position:

Is Jesus God--the God who is, the God who was, and the God who is to come? YesIs Father God flesh and bone? Answer not givenDid Jesus exist eternity past? YesIs Jesus the brother of Satan? NoIs Joseph Smith a false prophet? UndecidedIs Mormonism a false cult? UndecidedIs the Mormon jesus a false god who does not exist? Answer not givenCan men become gods? NoCan you denounce the Mormon jesus as a false god? Answer not given

Are the Yes/No answers correct? As you can see, there are also plenty of "Answer not given" that would be nice to clean up. Thanks,

Geode, I've been trying to objectively read as much as I can on this exchange regarding Mormonism. I have tried to find answers within your comments and some have been elusive to me, so I think more inline, direct answers would help move things along. I'm going to take TeeJay's list and answer them based on what I've read in your posts, to be honest most answers are based on inferences. Please fill free to fill in the blanks and correct me where I misinterpreted your position:

Is Jesus God--the God who is, the God who was, and the God who is to come? YesIs Father God flesh and bone? Answer not givenDid Jesus exist eternity past? YesIs Jesus the brother of Satan? NoIs Joseph Smith a false prophet? UndecidedIs Mormonism a false cult? UndecidedIs the Mormon jesus a false god who does not exist? Answer not givenCan men become gods? NoCan you denounce the Mormon jesus as a false god? Answer not given

Are the Yes/No answers correct? As you can see, there are also plenty of "Answer not given" that would be nice to clean up. Thanks,

Fred

Those that are not answered are not easily yes or no questions. From a JW stand point, I would have to say that it is more complicated than that. I won't go into details until after Geode answers, just wanted to pop in and say that as a member of a cult (and isn't the term rank and file a cult term?) I understand that these questions are not easy to wrestle with. Someone on the ex-JW sites that I frequent asked How do you feel about Jehovah? That is a difficult question. The cult has ruined the use of that name and I have quite a struggle with it. I am so glad that I can talk to Jesus and ask for his help.