Saturday, March 06, 2004

Is This Why You Converted?

Dave: This isn't why I converted, but then my (doctrinal, historical, and moral theological) reasons may be those of a tiny minority of converts (if Pastor Schlissel is correct in his assessment).

He says people are sick of the fighting and divisions in Reformed circles and so they split and cross the Tiber. No doubt they are tired of the fighting and little "pastor-doms" (we had our share of what I disdainfully called "civil wars" in Arminian, non-denom circles, too).

But he fails to go to the next step: maybe, perhaps (some small shred of possibility) people instinctively realize that division and bickering and proliferating denominations were not how God intended Christianity to be, and that there is something inherent in Protestantism (in its structure and belief-system) which produces this division that is demonstrably unbiblical and sinful (most Protestants freely admit that all the division is sinful, but they don't seem to have a clue as to what to do about it).

In other words, maybe those of us who have converted (I was never Reformed, but I was highly influenced by some aspects of it and had and have great respect for the tradition) figured out that the Protestant system had something wrong with it, which in turn produced the division that Schlissel excoriates.

That would mean that conversion was motivated not by purely personal interests and comfort zones and touchy-feely stuff, but by the principle of considering that Protestant ecclesiology and rule of faith are fundamentally flawed, and thus no longer worthy of allegiance. Just a thought . . .

Who should be surprised if there are a huge number of Protestant conversions to Rome, and that soon? Who should be shocked in light of the animosity, the hatred, that Presbyterians (not to mention others) can express for other Presbyterians?

The sentiment that “the doctrine of justification by faith” is somehow that which will tilt stragglers toward Rome is purely ignorant. It may have animated Europe in 1602, but it draws a universal yawn 400 years afterward. Such an assessment — that people are going to Rome because of their doctrine of justification — can only be advanced by people who won’t look up from their books and out at the world. It ignores our real, postmodern circumstances. People are not becoming Christian, or leaving Christianity, because of fine-tuned abstract theological propositions.

Sure, it will happen once in a while that a guy will, after serious consideration, go Eastern or Roman, but I insist that such movement is rarely the result of doctrinal consideration. It is, in my experience and according to my observation, a result of people getting fed up and sick and tired of the egos, the lawlessness, the lovelessness, the endless hairsplitting, the bickering, the in-fighting, the splintering. Too, it is sometimes a response to the irreverent “worship” encountered in oh-so-many American houses of “worship.”

I expect our cannibalism — the special Reformed sort that likes best to feast on one’s closest kin’s skin — to yield many departures to Rome and the East. Why on earth would any young, earnest inquirer want to remain a Presbyterian when he witnesses them eating each other for lunch?

I think it is also a good warning for all Protestant teachers to fairly represent Romanism. The hysterical ranting of the hard-nosed types contributes to such departures because care has not been taken to accurately portray Roman Catholicism. When some young Presbyterian “studies” patristic literature, he has no way to absorb it. He reads it as though it were pro-Romish. If he had been properly taught, if he had been instructed in the truth about early church history, about the precise, developed errors of Rome, all 7,856 of them, rather than the insane ramblings only against their view of justification, I dare to say he would have been fortified to read the Fathers, or anyone else.

Let me give you an example: When I read the New Testament, its treatment of Christianity as Jewish served in my conversion, for I had been taught that Christianity was Gentile-ish. If I had been taught the true character of Christianity, God’s irresistible call aside (you know what I mean), I would not have been swayed by the surprise of New Testament teaching — I would not have been surprised, for I would have been instructed.

All told, I expect Rome will make great gains over the next 20 years or so, and I’d wager that the attitudes displayed by the heresy hunters will contribute far more to those gains than 100 Norm Shepherd-ites, even with their teachings taken to the nth degree. “They will know we are Christians by our love.” It is appalling Protestant effrontery to offer to God crossed t’s in place of crosses borne.

Got love?

This article originally appeared February 3, 2003, on the web site of the Center for Cultural Leadership.

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Rev. Steve M. Schlissel is the pastor of Messiah’s Congregation in Brooklyn, New York.

--- Marcus Grodi (director of The Coming Home Network, and host of the EWTN television show: The Journey Home)

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I love your books, love your site, love everything you do. God bless you in your work. I'm very grateful for all you've done, and for all you make available. If someone pitches a hard question at me, I go first to your site. Then I send the questioner directly to the page that best answers the question. I know it's going to be on your site.

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Dave Armstrong's book A Biblical Defense of Catholicism was one of the first Catholic apologetics books that I read when I was exploring Catholicism. Ever since then, I have continued to appreciate how he articulates the Catholic Faith through his blog and books. I still visit his site when I need a great quote or clarification regarding anything . . . Dave is one of the best cyber-apologists out there.--- Dr. Taylor Marshall (apologist and author of The Crucified Rabbi)

I love how Dave makes so much use of the Scriptures in his arguments, showing that the Bible is fully compatible with Catholicism, even more plausibly so than it is with Protestantism.. . . Dave is the hardest working Catholic apologist I know. He is an inspiration to me.

--- Devin Rose (apologist and author of The Protestant's Dilemma, 28 May 2012 and 30 Aug. 2013)Dave Armstrong['s] website is an amazing treasure trove representing hours–yea a lifetime of material gathered to defend Catholic doctrine. Over the years Dave has gathered the evidence for Catholic teaching from just about every source imaginable. He has the strength not only to understand the Catholic faith, but to understand the subtleties and arguments of his Protestant opponents.--- Fr. Dwight Longenecker (author and prominent blogmaster, 6-29-12)

You are a very friendly adversary who really does try to do all things with gentleness and respect. For this I praise God.--- Nathan Rinne (Lutheran apologist [LC-MS] )

You are one of the most thoughtful and careful apologists out there.

Dave, I disagree with you a lot, but you're honorable and gentlemanly, and you really care about truth. Also, I often learn from you, even with regard to my own field. [1-7-14]

--- Dr. Edwin W. Tait (Anglican Church historian)

Dave Armstrong writes me really nice letters when I ask questions. . . . Really, his notes to me are always first class and very respectful and helpful. . . . Dave Armstrong has continued to answer my questions in respectful and helpful ways. I thank the Lord for him.

--- The late Michael Spencer (evangelical Protestant), aka "The Internet Monk", on the Boar's Head Tavern site, 27 and 29 September 2007

Dave Armstrong is a former Protestant Catholic who is in fact blessedly free of the kind of "any enemy of Protestantism is a friend of mine" coalition-building . . . he's pro-Catholic (naturally) without being anti-Protestant (or anti-Orthodox, for that matter).

---"CPA": Lutheran professor of history [seehis site]: unsolicited remarks of 12 July 2005

I am reading your stuff since I think it is the most thorough and perhaps the best defense of Catholicism out there . . . Dave has been nothing but respectful and kind to me. He has shown me great respect despite knowing full well that I disagree with him on the essential issues.

Dave has been a full-time apologist for years. He’s done much good for thousands of people.

You have a lot of good things to say, and you're industrious. Your content often is great. You've done yeoman work over the decades, and many more people [should] profit from your writing. They need what you have to say.--- Karl Keating (founder and director of Catholic Answers, the largest Catholic apologetics organization in the world; 5 Sep. 2013 and 1 Jan. 2015)

Whether one agrees with Dave's take on everything or not, everyone should take it quite seriously, because he presents his arguments formidably.

I like the way you present your stuff Dave ... 99% of the time.--- Protestant Dave Scott, 4-22-14 on my personal Facebook page.

Who is this Dave Armstrong? What is he really like? Well, he is affable, gentle, sweet, easily pleased, very appreciative, and affectionate . . . I was totally unprepared for the real guy. He's a teddy bear, cuddly and sweet. Doesn't interrupt, sits quietly and respectfully as his wife and/or another woman speaks at length. Doesn't dominate the conversation. Just pleasantly, cheerfully enjoys whatever is going on about him at the moment and lovingly affirms those in his presence. Most of the time he has a relaxed, sweet smile.

--- Becky Mayhew (Catholic), 9 May 2009, on the Coming Home Network Forum, after meeting me in person.

Every so often, I recommend great apostolates, websites, etc. And I am very careful to recommend only the very best that are entirely Catholic and in union with the Church. Dave Armstrong’s Biblical Evidence for Catholicism site is one of those. It is a veritable treasure chest of information. Dave is thorough in his research, relentlessly orthodox, and very easy to read.

Discussions with you are always a pleasure, agreeing or disagreeing; that is a rarity these days.

--- David Hemlock (Eastern Orthodox Christian), 4 November 2014.

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--- Dr. Lydia McGrew (Anglican), 12 November 2014.

Dave Armstrong is a friend of mine with whom I've had many discussions. He is a prolific Catholic writer and apologist. If you want to know what the Catholic Church really believes, Dave is a good choice. Dave and I have our disagreements, but I'll put my arm around him and consider him a brother. There is too much dishonesty among all sides in stating what the "other side" believes. I'll respect someone who states fairly what the other believes.

Recommended Catholic Apologetics Links and Icons

Protestantism: Critical Reflections of an Ecumenical Catholic

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