ngodrup wrote:The thing to appreciate, it seems to my mind, is that recognitionaccording to trekchod would be essentially equivalent to the seeingof an Arya Being on the Path of Seeing or a first bhumi Bodhisattva.I very much doubt that all these facile comparisons of Dzogchen toChan or Zen bear much resemblance to the actual seeing of an Arya.... but I may be mistaken.

No, the reason is that one does not need to realize emptiness in order to properly practice tregchö, emptiness may remain an inference. But one must have experience of this unconditioned clarity in order to practice tregchö. Eventually, if you practice tregchö long enough you will realize emptiness because that insight will automatically arise within your meditation, and this is predicated on understanding the view of original purity .

Namdrol wrote:This is referring to appearance and emptiness, object side.

N

I see. Could you explain a little what is meant by clarity?

"Clarity" means the fundamental aspect of the mind that illuminates objects for the mind separate from the content of the mind. That clarity is very difficult to discover.

Tashi delek,

In addition to this explanation about clarity.

Clarity is self (arising)-illuminating. The lamp illuminate the outside but does illuminate also itself.

Clarity does belong to the Thogal visions. In this State (of the visions ) of Thogal one is aware about the sounds, lights (4 Lamps) and rays (forms).This State is Yermed (inseparable connected) with Trekchod or the emptiness aspect, which forms the base of all there is.

These visions or manifestations are unceasing and do appear spontaneously or are self-emanating.One has to realize that all these visions are of empty nature and that they are an expression of the Base itself.

They appear in 4 modes or categories:

1. The sounds, rays and lights spontaneously existing within the Base ( gZhi) of the Natural State2. Their arising due to secondary causes (rkyen) created within the experience of the Natural State3. The arising of the sounds, rays and lights during the practice of the path (lam)4. Their arising during the bardo.

This clarity is mostly explaimed in the Dzogchen Semsde teachingsThe emptiness is mostly explained in the Longde teachingsThe best Dzogchen teachings are inside the Mengagde teachings where the unification is explained or the State of Yermed.

One is also aware about the sounds, lights and rays (forms) in the Bardo State, where one must see the visions as not outside but as a projection of the self experiencing or self-awareness State.

So to be aware / experiencing these lights in life, like in the dark retreat, will mean that one can be liberated in the Bardo State by recognizing because one is trained in to be in the Natural State.

Fa Dao wrote:In the hua tou method one is given a meditation topic/question. For example, "Who is dragging this corpse around?" or "Who is chanting Buddhas name?" You are instructed to continually ask this question until one pointedness is achieved. Great doubt is developed from asking a question that does not have an answer that the logical/rational/thinking mind can answer. One keeps pushing and pushing to come up with an answer nonetheless. Eventually one breaks through and the separateness of mind, body and world drops away leaving one with a deep understanding of shunyata.

Tregcho is based on recognizing the nature of mind directly, and staying in that state.

N

Tashi delek,

In addition to the above mentioned.

Trekchod is mainly based on the emptiness aspect of the mind as well the realizing that the objects are also empty.But to rest in that State without the self-emergent visions is not complete because the Natural State is always connected to emptiness and clearness.

We devide the Natural State into these 2 States, only for the purpose of explanations.

Inge wrote:And what does it mean to discover this clarity? Can this clarity be seen, or is it experienced like some kind of state, or something else entirely?

Clarity is the cognitive aspect of the mind that knows objects. So in sense, what one is trying to see is the knowing knower itself, apart from what it knows.

Tashi delek,

In addition to the above stated.

Clarity is the (self) awarenes aspect of the Natural State, which in turn is based on the Nature of Mind, which is there in a spontaneous way. It is always connected on the emptiness aspect as inseparable connected.

If it is cognitive then it has the self arising Wisdom of the Wisdom Lights. Like explained before, we do not see it then as "knowing" like a self does understand something etc.It is more spontaneous self arising Wisdom which "shows" the essence of the vision, like for instance empty, without knowing an object etc.

Mutsog MarroKY

THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNEDIF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGEHE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MANWHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD

Namdrol wrote:The difficulty is that a knower is conditioned. This clarity is unconditoned.

In what way is a knower conditioned?Does conditioned mean that it depends on something? I only know the term "condition" as in causes and condition, but I'm not certain about the distinction between the two.

Must the cognitive aspect recognize itself?

Tashi delek,

It is like a lamp which can illuminate an object, but on top of that the lamp illuminates also itself.This light is self emanating and is inseparable connected to the Tong Cha aspect or the emptiness aspect of the Nature of Mind.

Hope this helps too

Mutsog marroKY

THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNEDIF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGEHE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MANWHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD

kalden yungdrung wrote:Trekchod is mainly based on the emptiness aspect of the mind as well the realizing that the objects are also empty.

KY[/color]

That is one way to explain it, but not the best way.

Tashi delek,

Well, maybe are there ways that my teachers or ego did forgot to mention regarding the description of the Abiding State of Trekchod.So i am always interested to hear more explanations about the State(s) of Trekchod.

You are welcome to elucidate then this Trekchod State more.......

Best wishes

Mutosg MarroKY

THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNEDIF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGEHE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MANWHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD

Shattering the great doubt means becoming free from attachment to concepts. That is seeing the nature of mind, entering the gate of no-gate, experiencing non-conceptual mind. This is the equivalent of pointing out instruction. How one continues to practice is another question.

"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

Astus wrote:Shattering the great doubt means becoming free from attachment to concepts. That is seeing the nature of mind, entering the gate of no-gate, experiencing non-conceptual mind. This is the equivalent of pointing out instruction. How one continues to practice is another question.

Tashi delek,

Thansk for your reply.

Some questions:

- Free from attachment to concepts does mean?- Seeing the Nature of Mind will be with the eyes?- Are there also more ways to see the Nature of the Mind?- Which mind would be here meant?- What are pointing out instructions ?- Where is this shattering of the great doubt explained?- What is doubt and about what is one doubtfull?

Best wishes

Mutsog MarroKY

THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNEDIF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGEHE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MANWHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

In the question must be the answerWhen we make the question the answer is thereWhen i make the question i mostly am aware of the answer(s)But is the other party on 1 line with my suggestion? Well that is the question..........

Mutsog MarroKY

THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNEDIF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGEHE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MANWHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

- Free from attachment to concepts does mean?- Seeing the Nature of Mind will be with the eyes?- Are there also more ways to see the Nature of the Mind?- Which mind would be here meant?- What are pointing out instructions ?- Where is this shattering of the great doubt explained?- What is doubt and about what is one doubtfull?

I think you better look into this yourself as your questions are far beyond a simple post. And when you have some questions left you can go to the Zen forum section to start a topic for it.

Shattering the Great Doubt: The Chan Practice of HuatouHoofprint of the Ox: Principles of the Chan Buddhist Path as Taught by a Modern Chinese MasterIlluminating silence: the practice of Chinese ZenAttaining the way: a guide to the practice of Chan Buddhism

"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

- Free from attachment to concepts does mean?- Seeing the Nature of Mind will be with the eyes?- Are there also more ways to see the Nature of the Mind?- Which mind would be here meant?- What are pointing out instructions ?- Where is this shattering of the great doubt explained?- What is doubt and about what is one doubtfull?

I think you better look into this yourself as your questions are far beyond a simple post. And when you have some questions left you can go to the Zen forum section to start a topic for it.

Shattering the Great Doubt: The Chan Practice of HuatouHoofprint of the Ox: Principles of the Chan Buddhist Path as Taught by a Modern Chinese MasterIlluminating silence: the practice of Chinese ZenAttaining the way: a guide to the practice of Chan Buddhism

Tashi delek,

Thanks for your reply.

Will take a look at your posted links

Best wishes

Mutosg MarroKY

THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNEDIF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGEHE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MANWHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD

Fa Dao wrote:From my limited understanding of chan realizing the nature of mind is realizing emtiness. So then in your estimation you would say it is similar to Tragcho?

The nature of the mind is not just emptiness, it is clarity and emptiness inseparable. The emphasis in tregchö is on this.

Tashi delek,

When i understood it well, then in Trekchod is cultivated, Rigpa in a non-dual egoless awreness. The cultivation to that state is path Rigpa, because it would be different than to be in the Natural State, this developing with its methods etc.

Best wishes

Mutsog MarroKY.

THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNEDIF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGEHE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MANWHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD

I've seen you use this phrase from time to time and it always seems like what you intend to be saying is "if I understood it well" or "if I understood it correctly" or something along those lines. I think you mean to be saying "if" rather than "when." Just trying to help ease the language barrier, so please don't take offense.

kalden yungdrung wrote:Mutsog Marro[/color]

I've also been meaning to ask you, out of curiosity, what the above (Tibetan?) phrase means?

I've seen you use this phrase from time to time and it always seems like what you intend to be saying is "if I understood it well" or "if I understood it correctly" or something along those lines. I think you mean to be saying "if" rather than "when." Just trying to help ease the language barrier, so please don't take offense.

That is because the Dutch have the same word for if and when (when used in those structures). A lot of Dutch speakers have problems with it.

I've seen you use this phrase from time to time and it always seems like what you intend to be saying is "if I understood it well" or "if I understood it correctly" or something along those lines. I think you mean to be saying "if" rather than "when." Just trying to help ease the language barrier, so please don't take offense.

kalden yungdrung wrote:Mutsog Marro[/color]

I've also been meaning to ask you, out of curiosity, what the above (Tibetan?) phrase means?

Tashi delek,

- Yes, if i did understood it well does mean, that in case i did understood the teachings wrong, my answers here will be alo wrong. And it could be that i -- could have misunderstood my teachings, that is possible........ - Mutsog Marro is Zhang Zhung language, which is the maternal language of the Zhang Zhung kingdom(s), 18 in total, and it does mean:" May all be - auspicious".

I've seen you use this phrase from time to time and it always seems like what you intend to be saying is "if I understood it well" or "if I understood it correctly" or something along those lines. I think you mean to be saying "if" rather than "when." Just trying to help ease the language barrier, so please don't take offense.

That is because the Dutch have the same word for if and when (when used in those structures). A lot of Dutch speakers have problems with it.