Bold print. ALL CAPS CAN BE A NICE TOUCH TOO. BOTH SCREAM OF "I'M SCREAMING AT YOU!!!"

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Very glad you mentioned the Bible. So....your point is that every person should read the Bible and get the exact same understanding of Yahweh's character? Except that doesn't happen, as you point out......hmmm, I wonder why such an intelligent being would choose as a method of communication one that is clearly not well suited to getting his message across.....

Why would an intelligent being resort to the written word? Because it can be copied and transmitted to more people more reliably than the oral word? Because he is intelligent and intelligent people write down what they want others to know and understand?- - - - -

Incidentally, you mentioned free will. Why do you regard it as so important to have?

Refresh my memory, what did I say about free will? Do you consider free will important? If so, why?

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Apologies, I thought you mentioned free will as being necessary for us to be able to choose, as opposed to just following god by default. If you don't regard free will as a vital part of your theology then we can forget about it.

We can discuss free will. What was it you said? Something about asking a question and not getting an answer? Do you consider free will important? If so, why?

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A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word "evil" is the Hebrew ? ra. The sense of the word is "calamity" and is translated so in new translations. Keep in mind that 1611 KJV English often uses the same words that we use but with different meanings (eg. meat doesn't mean "steak, chicken, pork, or fish" back then)

So which is it? Did he come down and answer questions or did he leave a whole book of answers. There is a huge difference. Why won't he 'come down' and answer questions today? Can't be bothered?

Why does He need to come down and answer your questions? Why don't you start with what information you have and work with that? Most people don't ever make a sincere effort to take the information that has been given them and use it, or they come with a closed mind and presuppositions (i.e. "The bible if false, but I'll try it." Atheists reads the book of Numbers. "Yep, just like I thought, no answers.")

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Even IF, I wasn't qualified to pass judgement on his decisions, I can still see that he behaves and reacts worse than most humans. So, I will ask again, Why is Yahweh worthy of worship?

You won't understand why Yahweh is worthy of worship because you are predisposed to not want to know. But I would answer your question if you will explain how you would be qualified to pass judgment when you can't even spell it correctly.

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A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

I wanted to know your opinion on why everything else in all cultures is dismissed by theists as myth,,, and everything in the Bible that can't possibly be true is metaphor,but not myth

I can't speak for other theists.

There was a time in my life when I was quite willing to dismiss other religions as false and believe Christianity was the ONLY true religion. Over time, mainly by leading a Sunday School class that was interested in comparative religions, I came to realize all religious beliefs are valid for their believers. Who am I to judge one religion is superior to another?

Regarding the second idea that theists tend to see things in the Bible as metaphor and not myth, which definition of myth are you applying?

As always,

OldChurchGuy

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Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Bold print. ALL CAPS CAN BE A NICE TOUCH TOO. BOTH SCREAM OF "I'M SCREAMING AT YOU!!!"

True. Of course, I didn't put it in bold the first time I asked it, only when you ignored it. But never mind - if you would prefer to avoid answering it, that's fine - I just wanted to be sure you hadn't missed it, now at least I can be sure you have read the question and decided not to answer it.

Very glad you mentioned the Bible. So....your point is that every person should read the Bible and get the exact same understanding of Yahweh's character? Except that doesn't happen, as you point out......hmmm, I wonder why such an intelligent being would choose as a method of communication one that is clearly not well suited to getting his message across.....

Why would an intelligent being resort to the written word? Because it can be copied and transmitted to more people more reliably than the oral word? Because he is intelligent and intelligent people write down what they want others to know and understand?

Except....you're moving away from the reason I brought it up. You said:

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He left a whole big book of answers. Some people come to it with preconceived notions though and can't glean truth from it because of their prejudices.

My point was that a much-translated book set thousands of years ago was clearly NOT best suited to getting his message across. Its failed to get his message to me, for example, failed to get his message to billions across the world and across history. That was the point.

Apologies, I thought you mentioned free will as being necessary for us to be able to choose, as opposed to just following god by default. If you don't regard free will as a vital part of your theology then we can forget about it.

We can discuss free will. What was it you said? Something about asking a question and not getting an answer? Do you consider free will important? If so, why?

Happy to answer. I want to be sure I grok the question though - do you mean "do I consider the concept of free will important in the context of understanding the message of the Bible", or "do I consider having free will to be important in general in the world", or something else?

Incidentally....I'm noting the irony of the number of words we are using just to get me to understand the exact thrust of a question. I say without any sarcasm that I am sure that in your mind you know what the question is that you wanted answered, but it hasn't been entirely accurately conveyed to me. We'll get there though, through a dialogue.

Just imagine though if you'd written your question down ONCE, and there was no way I could clarify what you meant! I might have sincerely answered the wrong question through misunderstanding it, and what use would that have been?

OCG the myth vs metaphor thing I would generally apply it to passages in the bible that really can't be explained by theists or be shown to be based in reality

An example may be a non existent Animal like a unicorn,not reality based it is dismissed as metaphor of some kind where a Sasquatch is dismissed by theists as myth.

This example may not explain as clear as I would like,but you understand the direction I am going

At the risk of sounding like a politician, I believe there are stories in the Bible which are myth and those which are metaphor. By myth, I mean an attempt to explain a phenomenon or otherwise inexplicable event. The creation stories in Genesis 1 and 2 come to mind as myths. One can argue that the metaphors in the Bible are actually myths and that may be. I just don't have enough knowledge or understanding to say with certainty.

Wishing I was smarter,

OldChurchGuy

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Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Are you familiar with martial arts? No really what do you practice/ used to practice!? (off topic I know)

Years and years ago I started with Tang Soo Do (Korean style like Chuck Norris) and then switched to Yoshukai Karate (Japanese style). I tried it for about two years, but life got in the way.

I took Tang Soo Do in my teens for about a week. I didn’t like it because they were very focused on point sparring and I was just interested in kicking ass.In my adult days I have took up boxing, kickboxing/Muay Thai, BJJ, and MMA. I have retired with a few amateur fights under my belt because fighting is a young man's game. And I am not young any more.

It's crazy how many different forms of karate there are. Right when I think I have heard of all of the Japanese styles a new one pops up that I have never heard of. I can understand how life gets in the way. I have learned the hard way I can't karate chop the rent. I can't even chop it in half. Lol maybe I am chopping it wrong.

I wanted to know your opinion on why everything else in all cultures is dismissed by theists as myth,,, and everything in the Bible that can't possibly be true is metaphor,but not myth

I can't speak for other theists.

There was a time in my life when I was quite willing to dismiss other religions as false and believe Christianity was the ONLY true religion. Over time, mainly by leading a Sunday School class that was interested in comparative religions, I came to realize all religious beliefs are valid for their believers. Who am I to judge one religion is superior to another?

Regarding the second idea that theists tend to see things in the Bible as metaphor and not myth, which definition of myth are you applying?

As always,

OldChurchGuy

So when Jesus said that He is the only way to the Father, do you just ignore that or what? If all religious beliefs are valid for their believers, then of what value was the cross?

OldChurchGuy, you are what the Apostle Paul would call a "wolf in sheep's clothing." You will lead many to eternal destruction.

Christianity is the only religion that offers salvation through grace by faith in the atoning work of Jesus Christ. All other religions say "get there the best you can and hope your good works outweigh the bad." So just to make sure it is said - all beliefs are not equal in validity and not equal in what they believe.

Logged

A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Except....you're moving away from the reason I brought it up. You said:

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He left a whole big book of answers. Some people come to it with preconceived notions though and can't glean truth from it because of their prejudices.

My point was that a much-translated book set thousands of years ago was clearly NOT best suited to getting his message across. Its failed to get his message to me, for example, failed to get his message to billions across the world and across history. That was the point.

not everyone will get the message. which leads us into the topics of election and is God evil for choosing some and not others, topics sure to offend many.

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Happy to answer. I want to be sure I grok the question though - do you mean "do I consider the concept of free will important in the context of understanding the message of the Bible", or "do I consider having free will to be important in general in the world", or something else?

Incidentally....I'm noting the irony of the number of words we are using just to get me to understand the exact thrust of a question. I say without any sarcasm that I am sure that in your mind you know what the question is that you wanted answered, but it hasn't been entirely accurately conveyed to me. We'll get there though, through a dialogue.

Just imagine though if you'd written your question down ONCE, and there was no way I could clarify what you meant! I might have sincerely answered the wrong question through misunderstanding it, and what use would that have been?

Actually I just want you to share your thoughts and/or questions on free will, wherever such thoughts lead. I think it will lead to a good discussion. I'm not trying to box you in with a question that is spelled out a certain way in order to receive an expected answer or an answer that may be deficient because the question was deficient.

But if you want to drop the topic, I understand.

Logged

A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

I took Tang Soo Do in my teens for about a week. I didn’t like it because they were very focused on point sparring and I was just interested in kicking ass.In my adult days I have took up boxing, kickboxing/Muay Thai, BJJ, and MMA. I have retired with a few amateur fights under my belt because fighting is a young man's game. And I am not young any more.

It's crazy how many different forms of karate there are. Right when I think I have heard of all of the Japanese styles a new one pops up that I have never heard of. I can understand how life gets in the way. I have learned the hard way I can't karate chop the rent. I can't even chop it in half. Lol maybe I am chopping it wrong.

Yes, I was thirty years younger but still a grown man when I took lessons. Overtime work hours, chasing young ladies, etc. put an end to my martial arts "career," and I am sure Chuck Norris is thankful for that.

I wanted to know your opinion on why everything else in all cultures is dismissed by theists as myth,,, and everything in the Bible that can't possibly be true is metaphor,but not myth

I can't speak for other theists.

There was a time in my life when I was quite willing to dismiss other religions as false and believe Christianity was the ONLY true religion. Over time, mainly by leading a Sunday School class that was interested in comparative religions, I came to realize all religious beliefs are valid for their believers. Who am I to judge one religion is superior to another?

Regarding the second idea that theists tend to see things in the Bible as metaphor and not myth, which definition of myth are you applying?

As always,

OldChurchGuy

OldChurchGuy, you are what the Apostle Paul would call a "wolf in sheep's clothing." You will lead many to eternal destruction.

Oooh Gz,

What a horrible thing to say.

You know, there are non-calvinistic views of christianity, non judgemental views. A cafeteria view of christinity where you only take love - nothing else - and you pile it on your plate, you receive so much of it, you are surrounded by it, and you hand it out over and over - and it becomes the strongest thing in the world, and yes the most dangerous, because of where you are willing to go, and what you are willing to do. It doesn't involve a god, or a jesus, or a religion - it involves respect for and caring about the other person, no matter how you feel you have been treated.

This individual view of Christianity that you have selected as your close-minded truth is what hurts the world.

I wanted to know your opinion on why everything else in all cultures is dismissed by theists as myth,,, and everything in the Bible that can't possibly be true is metaphor,but not myth

I can't speak for other theists.

There was a time in my life when I was quite willing to dismiss other religions as false and believe Christianity was the ONLY true religion. Over time, mainly by leading a Sunday School class that was interested in comparative religions, I came to realize all religious beliefs are valid for their believers. Who am I to judge one religion is superior to another?

Regarding the second idea that theists tend to see things in the Bible as metaphor and not myth, which definition of myth are you applying?

As always,

OldChurchGuy

OldChurchGuy, you are what the Apostle Paul would call a "wolf in sheep's clothing." You will lead many to eternal destruction.

Oooh Gz,

What a horrible thing to say.

You know, there are non-calvinistic views of christianity, non judgemental views. A cafeteria view of christinity where you only take love - nothing else - and you pile it on your plate, you receive so much of it, you are surrounded by it, and you hand it out over and over - and it becomes the strongest thing in the world, and yes the most dangerous, because of where you are willing to go, and what you are willing to do. It doesn't involve a god, or a jesus, or a religion - it involves respect for and caring about the other person, no matter how you feel you have been treated.

This individual view of Christianity that you have selected as your close-minded truth is what hurts the world.

The only view of Christianity that I am interested in, and that I hope to profess, is the one that comes from the Bible itself, not one based on any man's opinions or preferences.

Logged

A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Organized religion is simply tribalism with a side order of philosophical wankery, and occasionally a baseball bat to smash the kneecaps of anyone who doesn't show proper deference to the tribe's chosen totem.

My premise that by knocking someone over the head with a stick and taking their wallet will improve my life by adding money for food, clothing, and shelter to my wallet makes such an action a good moral choice for me even though others may disagree?

If it wasn't, then you wouldn't have done it, right? But it would still be wrong to me. And I would be acting and judging based on my values, not on yours.

So in your reasoning, morality is relative? My premise that by knocking someone over the head with a stick and taking their wallet will improve my life by adding money for food, clothing, and shelter to my wallet makes such an action a good moral choice for me even though others may disagree?

If you are unable or unwilling to look at the other side of the story, and imagine yourself as the one with the sore head and empty wallet, then you are not interested in the sources of morality.

Logged

It isn't true that non-existent gods can't do anything. For instance, they were able to make me into an atheist.

I wanted to know your opinion on why everything else in all cultures is dismissed by theists as myth,,, and everything in the Bible that can't possibly be true is metaphor,but not myth

I can't speak for other theists.

There was a time in my life when I was quite willing to dismiss other religions as false and believe Christianity was the ONLY true religion. Over time, mainly by leading a Sunday School class that was interested in comparative religions, I came to realize all religious beliefs are valid for their believers. Who am I to judge one religion is superior to another?

Regarding the second idea that theists tend to see things in the Bible as metaphor and not myth, which definition of myth are you applying?

As always,

OldChurchGuy

So when Jesus said that He is the only way to the Father, do you just ignore that or what? If all religious beliefs are valid for their believers, then of what value was the cross?

OldChurchGuy, you are what the Apostle Paul would call a "wolf in sheep's clothing." You will lead many to eternal destruction.

Christianity is the only religion that offers salvation through grace by faith in the atoning work of Jesus Christ. All other religions say "get there the best you can and hope your good works outweigh the bad." So just to make sure it is said - all beliefs are not equal in validity and not equal in what they believe.

It would appear where we differ is the opening sentence "So when Jesus said that He is the only way to the Father...". If I understand you correctly, you interpret that to mean that Jesus actually said those words (or, at best, words to that effect) and you take that on faith. I have no problem with you taking such a statement on faith. Where we differ is that I do not treat my faith as irrefutable fact as it appears you do. Put another way, you have faith that Jesus said these words and you have faith that these words are not added by some author sometime after the fact. I admit, I do not have such a faith.

If that makes me a wolf in sheep's clothing, so be it.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Logged

Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

I wanted to know your opinion on why everything else in all cultures is dismissed by theists as myth,,, and everything in the Bible that can't possibly be true is metaphor,but not myth

I can't speak for other theists.

There was a time in my life when I was quite willing to dismiss other religions as false and believe Christianity was the ONLY true religion. Over time, mainly by leading a Sunday School class that was interested in comparative religions, I came to realize all religious beliefs are valid for their believers. Who am I to judge one religion is superior to another?

Regarding the second idea that theists tend to see things in the Bible as metaphor and not myth, which definition of myth are you applying?

As always,

OldChurchGuy

OldChurchGuy, you are what the Apostle Paul would call a "wolf in sheep's clothing." You will lead many to eternal destruction.

Oooh Gz,

What a horrible thing to say.

You know, there are non-calvinistic views of christianity, non judgemental views. A cafeteria view of christinity where you only take love - nothing else - and you pile it on your plate, you receive so much of it, you are surrounded by it, and you hand it out over and over - and it becomes the strongest thing in the world, and yes the most dangerous, because of where you are willing to go, and what you are willing to do. It doesn't involve a god, or a jesus, or a religion - it involves respect for and caring about the other person, no matter how you feel you have been treated.

This individual view of Christianity that you have selected as your close-minded truth is what hurts the world.

The only view of Christianity that I am interested in, and that I hope to profess, is the one that comes from the Bible itself, not one based on any man's opinions or preferences.

Is it correct to conclude you understand the Bible to be the divinely inspired interrant Word of God to be taken literally unless the wording in a given passage uses simile's such as "like" or "as"?

The only view of Christianity that I am interested in, and that I hope to profess, is the one that comes from the Bible itself, not one based on any man's opinions or preferences.

...which is based on your opinion and preference.

That's your opinion. I've often had to come to grips with things in the Bible that weren't pleasant, or didn't fit with the theology I already had, or stuff that just seemed harsh. It's a growth process, not an automatic submission.

Logged

A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

I wanted to know your opinion on why everything else in all cultures is dismissed by theists as myth,,, and everything in the Bible that can't possibly be true is metaphor,but not myth

I can't speak for other theists.

There was a time in my life when I was quite willing to dismiss other religions as false and believe Christianity was the ONLY true religion. Over time, mainly by leading a Sunday School class that was interested in comparative religions, I came to realize all religious beliefs are valid for their believers. Who am I to judge one religion is superior to another?

Regarding the second idea that theists tend to see things in the Bible as metaphor and not myth, which definition of myth are you applying?

As always,

OldChurchGuy

So when Jesus said that He is the only way to the Father, do you just ignore that or what? If all religious beliefs are valid for their believers, then of what value was the cross?

OldChurchGuy, you are what the Apostle Paul would call a "wolf in sheep's clothing." You will lead many to eternal destruction.

Christianity is the only religion that offers salvation through grace by faith in the atoning work of Jesus Christ. All other religions say "get there the best you can and hope your good works outweigh the bad." So just to make sure it is said - all beliefs are not equal in validity and not equal in what they believe.

It would appear where we differ is the opening sentence "So when Jesus said that He is the only way to the Father...". If I understand you correctly, you interpret that to mean that Jesus actually said those words (or, at best, words to that effect) and you take that on faith. I have no problem with you taking such a statement on faith. Where we differ is that I do not treat my faith as irrefutable fact as it appears you do. Put another way, you have faith that Jesus said these words and you have faith that these words are not added by some author sometime after the fact. I admit, I do not have such a faith.

If that makes me a wolf in sheep's clothing, so be it.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

If you claim to speak for Christianity, yet you say all religions are valid, then by the New Testament standards, yes, you are a wolf in sheep's clothing. If you claim to be a Christian yet you do not have faith, then you are misled or misleading. If you believe parts of the Bible are God speaking and other parts are supposedly just the words of mere men, then how can you trust any of it?

Logged

A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Is it correct to conclude you understand the Bible to be the divinely inspired interrant Word of God to be taken literally unless the wording in a given passage uses simile's such as "like" or "as"?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

I believe the original autograph to be the divinely inspired, inerrant Word of God. He used different men over different ages as His scribes and He used different literature styles such as historical narrative, poetry, apocalyptic writing, parables, and letters. The Word of God uses symbolism and imagery at times such as in Daniel, Ezekiel, and Revelation, so no, it is not every word taken literally, but that's always a good place to start if possible.

Logged

A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

If you differentiate the person of Yahweh into God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, then no one has seen the Father, but God the Son said if you have seen Him then you have seen the Father. God the Father is Spirit and God the Holy Spirit is of course Spirit. God the Son was Spirit but took on the flesh of humanity.

So no one, including me, has seen the Father or the Holy Spirit. I have not seen God the Son.

But that leaves the spiritual sense of visitation. Yes, God in the Spirit has not only visited me, but according to the biblical worldview, resides within me continually.

Logged

A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

I wanted to know your opinion on why everything else in all cultures is dismissed by theists as myth,,, and everything in the Bible that can't possibly be true is metaphor,but not myth

I can't speak for other theists.

There was a time in my life when I was quite willing to dismiss other religions as false and believe Christianity was the ONLY true religion. Over time, mainly by leading a Sunday School class that was interested in comparative religions, I came to realize all religious beliefs are valid for their believers. Who am I to judge one religion is superior to another?

Regarding the second idea that theists tend to see things in the Bible as metaphor and not myth, which definition of myth are you applying?

As always,

OldChurchGuy

So when Jesus said that He is the only way to the Father, do you just ignore that or what? If all religious beliefs are valid for their believers, then of what value was the cross?

OldChurchGuy, you are what the Apostle Paul would call a "wolf in sheep's clothing." You will lead many to eternal destruction.

Christianity is the only religion that offers salvation through grace by faith in the atoning work of Jesus Christ. All other religions say "get there the best you can and hope your good works outweigh the bad." So just to make sure it is said - all beliefs are not equal in validity and not equal in what they believe.

It would appear where we differ is the opening sentence "So when Jesus said that He is the only way to the Father...". If I understand you correctly, you interpret that to mean that Jesus actually said those words (or, at best, words to that effect) and you take that on faith. I have no problem with you taking such a statement on faith. Where we differ is that I do not treat my faith as irrefutable fact as it appears you do. Put another way, you have faith that Jesus said these words and you have faith that these words are not added by some author sometime after the fact. I admit, I do not have such a faith.

If that makes me a wolf in sheep's clothing, so be it.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

If you claim to speak for Christianity, yet you say all religions are valid, then by the New Testament standards, yes, you are a wolf in sheep's clothing. If you claim to be a Christian yet you do not have faith, then you are misled or misleading. If you believe parts of the Bible are God speaking and other parts are supposedly just the words of mere men, then how can you trust any of it?

I speak only for myself. If at any time I give the impression on this exchange or any of the other exchanges on this website that I am speaking for Christianity then I apologize as that is never my intent.

The second sentence confuses me (as you can tell, I confuse easily). The sentence "If you claim to be a Christian yet you do not have faith, then you are misled or misleading." is what I am referring to. How is the word "faith" being defined.

Regarding the third sentence, for me, the Bible (the Hebrew Bible aka The Old Testament and the New Testament writings) is a collection of stories written by many people (very few of whom are actually known) all trying to describe what it is like to experience God. So if that means I don't blindly trust it as being 100% the word of God, then you are correct. The conclusion is based on the perception that no two Christians, even Apologists, are 100% unified on interpreting the entire Bible.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Logged

Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama