I know that if Yama has a weakness, it's that he's not exactly hot stuff in A-groove, so he's not going to get much play at all on any A-team.

Yama has alot of weaknesses, but not because of his A-groove capabillities. Lots of characters suck on A-groove, but that doesnt really mean it's a weakness. Look at Sagat. Where are his CCs? Sagat is practically perfect. He may suck on A, but thats not really a weakness. As for A teams There are some characters that just arent made for A-groove. Doesnt make tham bad characters though.

Rugal? I remember some guys that were solid with him, but what happened to him anyway? Shouldn't RC fix his old weakness of unreliable AA?

HUH?!?!?! Rugal didnt go anywhere. He's still used alot in C and N groove. And what exactly do you mean about Rugal not having any good AAs. Rugal is a huge threat there. It's best to play a good ground game against Rugal and stay in close. If you jump in or keep your distance you'll get owned. hmmmm... Sounds like a pretty good character to me.

the people who say that eagle is shit compared to sagat really need to realize what the game is about. toptiers need many things to dominate over other characters. this is an obvious statement but you should all take into account what those things are. a good poke, antiair, damaging combo, some people would say abusable move or RC but i dont think its true. eagle's standing fierce punch alone dominates most characters in the game. the reach of this move is crazy and its uncrouchable (except for iori, maki, athena). many of you arent even making arguments to back up why you think sagat is light years better than eagle. the one advantage that sagat has is that he is able to combo in his supers from almost any of his pokes. thats a nice strength to have but you wont usually get this off in the heat of battle(expecially the people on this board who are just talking madness and repeating buk. yeah hes good but try figuring shit out for yourselves). the only person its a big factor against(toptier-wise) is cammy. she cant random cannonspike anymore against sagat because he can take off over half of her life if he has a level 2 or more. but i dont see sagat punishing sakura's RH with st. fierce into super very often at all. its nice he has it but nobody uses it enough to be "practical". i hate playing theory fighter but until i play everybody on this board i cant say shit cuz they'll just counter with blah blah blah its not true. anyways if anybody is up for a money match anywhere on the east coast gimme a pm. i'll play for up to $500.

oh yeah snakedizzle that was my little cousin posting before just ignore all that bullshit.

the people who say that eagle is shit compared to sagat really need to realize what the game is about. .

Well you would have a point if you werent the same guy who said Sakura was one of the worst characters in the game when A Sak is one of the best characters if not the best character in the game.

Eagle is good no doubt high mid imo but he isnt Sagat that is true. Like I said you can play no groove Sagat and still have a chance just because its Sagat.

Now onto something else

Buk or anyone else who feels like commenting on this. You rate A Hibiki as the better Hibiki but I always felt K was alittle bit better although either isnt a wrong answer. Im going to guess that the reasoning is that she has about 800 different ways to setup her CC which does increadible damage but I could be wrong.

I think N Yama is very high mid. Besides dying to like Vega and Sagat. But then again like every high mid char dies to like 2 characters. K and C yama are pretty good too, but I believe N Yama is the best.

I've had like 1/3rd of a reply typed up and sitting there for the last few days. It's crunch time at work right now... haven't really had time for SRK shenanigans except for the random modding here and there.

-Campbell Tran

as of 12/02/09:

me: did pz john ever give the japanese players their money
bas: hahah of course no

first off, it's funny how you guys think i'm starting some big flame war and starting a crusade to make eagle top tier. i said HIGH MID, not top. also, this is a good discussion, not a stupid flame war. anyways....

LZJ

thanks, it's nice to see that somebody else agrees with me and gets what i'm saying.

epsilon

you don't make any sense. just because eagle doesn't have something abusable doesn't mean he can't be high mid tier. no top tier character has something that is ABSOLUTELY ABUSABLE. cvs2 has evolved more than that. for example, sakura's standing rh is good, but she can't spam it all day for the win. same with sagat and blanka's crouching fierce. what ultimately DEFINES a top tier character is their favorable matchups, and that's what makes yamazaki not so hot (aka bad matchups against vega and sagat). but yet eagle's favorable matchups aren't applicable? i don't get it. and no, eagle and sagat aren't comparable at all.

snakedizzle209

okay, you acknowledge that eagle can punish sakura's standing rh, yet sakura somehow magically still wins the match? you're not providing enough support to prove a point. i'd like to hear what else you think on the matchup. but you said it yourself- you don't know shit about eagle. RC lariat IS the best low jump AA, and you DO need to RC it (RC mp lariat of course). and P is probably eagle's 3rd best groove, so you haven't faced eagle in his best groove, but it's okay because you still got to see his potential. geese IS NOT top tier, i don't know where you got that from.

jae hoon

well, A-hibiki won't die to A-groove like K-hibiki will. and yes, you're right. hibiki has a bunch of guaranteed methods of damage with her CC. and there's all the mixups you can do if your CC is being blocked....

I think Eagle is top tier. The only thing that hurts him is that his really good pokes have a lot of lag. If you're caught up in footsies, your opponent can just roll and punish you with whatever he wants since he's still in recovery for a while. I can see the arguement both ways, though.

Popoblo - I'd like to take you up on C-Eagle vs P-Cammy offer. I think he can counter Cammy well, but not P-Cammy. I'd be glad to be proven wrong.

i've never heard geese even mentioned anywhere near the TOP tier. upper mid, absolutely, just not top tier. and i thought the top 2 characters in K-groove were sagat and cammy, not blanka, at least that's what i read in an old post from buk. i don't play K-groove=)

Legendary Gokou

you're right, eagle's standing fierce and crouching rh have a good amount of lag. that's why it's imperative for ANY eagle player to never press standing fierce unless it's for whiff punishing. otherwise, eagle will get smoked by rollers and jumpers all day. eagle isn't a "pattern" character, but more of a reactionary character who takes a lot of patience to be good with. besides, i think eagle's best poke is his crouching mk.

C-eagle? no way man, i only play A-eagle. it's the same reason i don't play chun li in tournaments anymore- you miss her combo and have her kick super blocked, you're FUCKED. you're eating some massive damage. i've missed eagle's link into super in C-groove too many times, so i've learned my lesson. if i miss my link into CC, i can still do a safe blocked CC string and i'm not wide open, which is nice. but i look forward to our P-cammy vs A-eagle matchup.

FatalFuryD

my bad, i wrote eagle when i meant to put vega. i edited that, sorry. you asked about vega, so why should i write stuff about eagle in response to your question? it's difficult to combo into vega's claw super in P/K grooves when it's much easier to just activate and get damage easier. and my closing comment was just a general one, not directed towards you at all. people just started to give me some heat, so i put that. no problem with you at all man.

i keep reading that yama dies to sagat. not true. roundhouse and rc dust and snake keep him out and stop a lot of his rush. his standing lk becomes less of an annoyance because yama zones anyways. maybe it's just me but i see it as a fair fight. sagat has the advantage because he's sagat and he dominates everyone, but the fight is nowhere near one sided.

Anyway, I've played alot of Eagle for quite some time, he can be hell for P and K-groovers unless theyre psychic, but I do remember the match from ECC9 I think, it was Eddie Lee vs Jason Cole or something? anyway, A vs K, and Eagle was like dominating the match, getting all the good hits vs Sagat, Sagat did 2 random fireball supers and Eagle got caught and Sagat won, that's my definition of fucked up for an Eagle player =(

okay, you acknowledge that eagle can punish sakura's standing rh, yet sakura somehow magically still wins the match? you're not providing enough support to prove a point. i'd like to hear what else you think on the matchup. but you said it yourself- you don't know shit about eagle. RC lariat IS the best low jump AA, and you DO need to RC it (RC mp lariat of course). and P is probably eagle's 3rd best groove, so you haven't faced eagle in his best groove, but it's okay because you still got to see his potential. geese IS NOT top tier, i don't know where you got that from.

I was just saying that in the end Sakura just has more going for her. Her whole game doesnt just revolve around her RH. I dont play Eagle, but I DO play Sakura, so I know what kind of shit to look out for when playing another character. And it doesnt matter that I havent played Eagle in his best groove, but that doesnt mean I dont know how to play against him. And your completely right, I dont know shit about Eagle. I was just saying that Eagle has some good AAs, because I get stuffed every time. I use K-Vega alot and Small jump is a big part of my style with Vega. I get stuffed by an Eagle who cant even RC. And against characters that are fast in terms of SJ, then isnt an RC move a little hard to do on reflex. Come on man. Theres no need to be so hostile. If anything I was agreeing with you. And I was just posting my opinion about Geese being top. I doubt he's in the mid tier even if it is high in the mid tier. He's got too much going for him to not be up there with Sagat and them.

IMO
Sagat, Cammy, Sakura, Blanka, Bison > Geese

Geese > everyone else

If you make an ass out of yourself, there will always be somebody to ride you. - Bruce Lee

since no one seems to be answering these questions .. i'm gonna post here until i get some sort of response.

where do K/C Rugal, K Geese, and C, N, K Yama fall in terms of tiers? Are they all mid? Apparently from the first post, it would seem so. But I've heard Rugal is lower mid - which I find hard to believe. IMO K Geese is pretty damn good (good priority, high damage when raged, smallest hit box, high life meter, etc), and only like 2 people every brought him up. A couple people brought up Yama - who seems to have high damage potential and a god like Standing roundhouse. Could someone give a good in depth look at their teiers?

And just where does Nakoruru stand? She's clearly not top, but in every discussion I see she alternates between the high-mid/low-top and the just plain low (!). RC hawk-grab overhead (can't remember it's name... I don't play her) seems awfully good, what with the invincibility cover on her going up, and the speed with which she comes down... In fact, the combining of at least that RC (doesn't even need the RC to be good..) with run seems to give her terrific pressuring power in N. But since I don't see her played much at all, I can't say much.

Well you would have a point if you werent the same guy who said Sakura was one of the worst characters in the game when A Sak is one of the best characters if not the best character in the game.

Eagle is good no doubt high mid imo but he isnt Sagat that is true. Like I said you can play no groove Sagat and still have a chance just because its Sagat.

Now onto something else

Buk or anyone else who feels like commenting on this. You rate A Hibiki as the better Hibiki but I always felt K was alittle bit better although either isnt a wrong answer. Im going to guess that the reasoning is that she has about 800 different ways to setup her CC which does increadible damage but I could be wrong.

Lol no and yes I do know who you are. I just find it rather surprising that you would say something like that. I would think you would be joking about that but it sounded pretty serious as this isnt the first thread you have said it in. Its common knowledge about how good Sak is and to say she isnt is just rather stupid honestly.

In from Washington actually but im deploying in this Hell called Iraq.

Spoony: To expound alittle more, Joe has trouble stopping small jumps, he doesnt have a reliable ground AA, so C groove eats him alive and he has not backup AA besides super for people who can parry well. He is to reliant on his crouching short for a reliable super combo. He has no air game to speak of. Those are some reasons why he might not be considered mid top tier.

He does however have a bit of an underrated roll, its not great but its good enough. He has an excellent pressure and chip damage game. His crouching jabs and crouching shorts are fast. I dont need to mention his lvl3 double upper. His screw upper is surprisngly quick and is good for people who love to small jump. He has an Iori like super combo. He has good speed to get across the playing field. He has a good projectile if used correctly and not abused. He also has a good RC with his RC Crazy Hands, the crazy hands are linkable to but its hella hard to pull off.

Lol no and yes I do know who you are. I just find it rather surprising that you would say something like that. I would think you would be joking about that but it sounded pretty serious as this isnt the first thread you have said it in. Its common knowledge about how good Sak is and to say she isnt is just rather stupid honestly.

In from Washington actually but im deploying in this Hell called Iraq.

Spoony: To expound alittle more, Joe has trouble stopping small jumps, he doesnt have a reliable ground AA, so C groove eats him alive and he has not backup AA besides super for people who can parry well. He is to reliant on his crouching short for a reliable super combo. He has no air game to speak of. Those are some reasons why he might not be considered mid top tier.

He does however have a bit of an underrated roll, its not great but its good enough. He has an excellent pressure and chip damage game. His crouching jabs and crouching shorts are fast. I dont need to mention his lvl3 double upper. His screw upper is surprisngly quick and is good for people who love to small jump. He has an Iori like super combo. He has good speed to get across the playing field. He has a good projectile if used correctly and not abused. He also has a good RC with his RC Crazy Hands, the crazy hands are linkable to but its hella hard to pull off.

People are failing to realize what LZJ is trying to point out. He's arguing that if a character has certain strengths/weaknesses that may/may not make them top tier, those factors should be considered first before throwing in the "RC through it." remark. Thats why he mentioned basics in his first post and why he mentioned Sakura was a bad character. If there weren't RC she would be a horrible character. All she would have is st. RH and st. jab.

One thing I learned is that you may be good at RCing, but under pressure there's still the fuck up factor. You fuck up, you're dead.

That's all he's trying to say.

"It's not your characters' weakness, but weakness in yourself.
Practice it hard and you can beat anybody." -Kuni

One thing I learned is that you may be good at RCing, but under pressure there's still the fuck up factor. You fuck up, you're dead.

Ok first off, Sakura isnt' ALL about RC. And with Sakura the more pressure your under the better, because if there trying to rush you then just roll cancel. And fucking up isnt really a factor. If you fuck up then it's your fault and not the character's fault. If your really worried about fucking up then just practice. And you say that Sakura sucks without RC. Thats not true at all. you said that all she has is st. RH and st. jab, but st.RH is one of the best pokes in the game and you can just use that, her BnB, a reliable AA and CCs just to make her an extreamly good character. She's TOP tier without RC, but RC is what make her GOD tier.

LZJ I have one question for you. Everyone seems to think that you are Josh Wong. Is this true?

If you make an ass out of yourself, there will always be somebody to ride you. - Bruce Lee

snake: vega rapes geese. too much speed and range. k geese is probably the best to have in the match up because of jd and the lucky super factor, but rushing vega down is really difficult. you'll end up eating standing'crouching mp and rc ball all day.

P and S Sakura are really good. No RC for those two characters last time I checked. What's her weakness anyway? Outside of RC, she lacks a good reversal? Those level one spin kicks aren't that bad if you ask me. Maybe my timing might be off, but I'm pretty sure I've had meaty attacks beaten by that super before.

All that trash talking about Eagle this, Eagle that is seriously hurting my eyes. WTF? Three pages of this garbage? I'd like if people stopped always getting offended over small matters for once and maybe post some helpful info instead of just making up stuff.

Is it really that offensive that some random scrub thinks Sakura sucks? Either bet it or stfu and let him voice his opinion already.

Geese owns Vega for free. All you have to do is keep the pressure on and keep him out of the air.

Ok first off, Sakura isnt' ALL about RC. And with Sakura the more pressure your under the better, because if there trying to rush you then just roll cancel. And fucking up isnt really a factor. If you fuck up then it's your fault and not the character's fault. If your really worried about fucking up then just practice. And you say that Sakura sucks without RC. Thats not true at all. you said that all she has is st. RH and st. jab, but st.RH is one of the best pokes in the game and you can just use that, her BnB, a reliable AA and CCs just to make her an extreamly good character. She's TOP tier without RC, but RC is what make her GOD tier.

LZJ I have one question for you. Everyone seems to think that you are Josh Wong. Is this true?

you said sakura isnt all about RC then you said if theyre trying to rush you then roll cancel. rushdown doesn = blindly running in and pressing buttons of your choice. its a lot of things combined. you cant just say RC through it. standing roundhouse is good but people need more than a good poke to be toptier. toptier is more about the upperhand advantages that arise from certain situations. but thats just my opinion. and its also about how much damage you can give. even then shes pretty solid. RC just makes her unbelievably annoying. but RC sometimes hurts her more than it helps. its true for a lot of people also. like how blanka waking up loves RC electricity. easy throw, level3, custom, or wait into a big poke. without the RC electricity you wouldnt have tried to be the shit. and now youre dead. so use at your own risk. everybody thinks i'm josh wong? yeah ok why not i'm josh wong lol.

snake: vega rapes geese. too much speed and range. k geese is probably the best to have in the match up because of jd and the lucky super factor, but rushing vega down is really difficult. you'll end up eating standing'crouching mp and rc ball all day.

I use Vega in my K-team as well as geese. Keep in mind that one of Vega's best grooves is P, which doesnt have RC. I play alot of matches revolving around Geese and Vega. When I play geese against Vega I own. And my Vega gets owned by Geese. You just need to throw more against A-vegas to stop RC. Thats all.

you said sakura isnt all about RC then you said if theyre trying to rush you then roll cancel. rushdown doesn = blindly running in and pressing buttons of your choice. its a lot of things combined. you cant just say RC through it.

I was just saying that pressure isnt an issue to Sakura. You can do more to get out, but RC is simply the best option. And you CAN RC through a rushdown. Say someones poking the hell out of you and you wanna get them away and teach them to be more careful when rushing. Just RC and then trust me, there not gonna be so eager to rush after that. And when you brought up RC electricity you didnt make much sense. If ANYTHING starts to be abused THAT much then it starts to become crap. Use everything you have wisely and wont become a problem.

standing roundhouse is good but people need more than a good poke to be toptier. toptier is more about the upperhand advantages that arise from certain situations.

Sakura has more that makes her top tier. Look at Sagat. One of the best characters in the game. Sure he would still be good without cr. fierce, probably still top tier. He would still be top, but he wouldnt be god tier anymore without cr. fierce. Sak has damaging combos (not including CCs), good pokes and great mix ups. Not to mention her CCs and the best RCs in the game next to electricity and Chun-li's kicks.

All that trash talking about Eagle this, Eagle that is seriously hurting my eyes. WTF? Three pages of this garbage? I'd like if people stopped always getting offended over small matters for once and maybe post some helpful info instead of just making up stuff.

Is it really that offensive that some random scrub thinks Sakura sucks? Either bet it or stfu and let him voice his opinion already.

I wasnt arguing. Arguing is what you would have saw in the worst character thread. I havent argued since then. Everything I've said in this thread hasnt gone back and forth like the worst character thread. I was simply saying to nick T. that sak doesnt need RC to be top tier. And I posted a few facts to back it up. And I wasnt even a part of that whole Eagle arguement asides from a few posts to get people to stop fighting. So nobody think that I'm trying to start some flame war.

If you make an ass out of yourself, there will always be somebody to ride you. - Bruce Lee

snake: vega rapes geese. too much speed and range. k geese is probably the best to have in the match up because of jd and the lucky super factor, but rushing vega down is really difficult. you'll end up eating standing'crouching mp and rc ball all day.

That has to be the vaguest analysis I've seen. Cuz isn't Vega faster than most char and outrange them as well???????????/

As far as K Hibiki goes, IMO she is not as good as A Hibiki, but K Hibiki does have alot tricks that can help her land supers and she has more offensive options than A Hibiki.

And whoever somewhere in here said Ryu was upper mid tier is on crack... Ryu sucks. Ryu is the worst shoto and IMO bottom 10 in the game.

Snake Drizzle...

Uh... Sagat has more than cr FP. He has st LK, st FP, cr MK, st MK, and long ass cr LK. So uh... he has more than cr FP.

So yea... don't use Sagat's cr FP as if he had only one poke to compare to Sak's RH. 99% of the time cr FP is a pain to deal with because he has 12341234234239423952345 other pokes he can do to throw you off. St LK is the gayest of them all... as a Sagat player, IMO it should build meter

And whoever somewhere in here said Ryu was upper mid tier is on crack... Ryu sucks. Ryu is the worst shoto and IMO bottom 10 in the game

Ryu may not have as much going for him as Ken or even Akuma, but he still has enough to make him really good. He owns on N-groove and is pretty good on other grooves. Way higher than bottom ten. IMO he's smack dab in the middle of tier listing. And he isnt the worst shoto. Lol, Dan is, if you want to count him.

Uh... Sagat has more than cr FP. He has st LK, st FP, cr MK, st MK, and long ass cr LK. So uh... he has more than cr FP.

So yea... don't use Sagat's cr FP as if he had only one poke to compare to Sak's RH. 99% of the time cr FP is a pain to deal with because he has 12341234234239423952345 other pokes he can do to throw you off. St LK is the gayest of them all... as a Sagat player, IMO it should build meter

Keep in mind that I said Sagat was Top tier even without his BEST poke. st LK sucks. It's only half decent for linking supers. Cr MK is extreamly good I'll have to agree. St Mk sucks ALOT. Cr LK is really good though.

You forgot the all mighty st jab(c). Good for ticks and pressure. I use st jab(c), cr LK, cr MK, cr FP and st FP on the taller opponents(and to punnish blanka balls). I never said that Sagat only had one good poke. I just said that he was top tier even without his BEST poke.

If you make an ass out of yourself, there will always be somebody to ride you. - Bruce Lee

N-Groove is Hibiki's best groove and A is second. Too many reasons for me to list. Does anyone agree?

Ryu may not have as much going for him as Ken or even Akuma, but he still has enough to make him really good. He owns on N-groove and is pretty good on other grooves. Way higher than bottom ten. IMO he's smack dab in the middle of tier listing. And he isnt the worst shoto. Lol, Dan is, if you want to count him.

What was that supposed to mean? Are you dissin' me or what?

Keep in mind that I said Sagat was Top tier even without his BEST poke. st LK sucks. It's only half decent for linking supers. Cr MK is extreamly good I'll have to agree. St Mk sucks ALOT. Cr LK is really good though.

You forgot the all mighty st jab(c). Good for ticks and pressure. I use st jab(c), cr LK, cr MK, cr FP and st FP on the taller opponents(and to punnish blanka balls). I never said that Sagat only had one good poke. I just said that he was top tier even without his BEST poke.

i would have the say that hibiki benefits the most from A groove not from N groove. the only thing i see N groove hibiki having over A hibiki is her low jump. run isnt bad either but she isnt much of a rushdown character so walk suits her just fine. its pretty useful for every character. A hibiki has counter and then activate, throw then activate, the most A groove custom combo mixups, useful rollcancels, and since shes best as a turtle character(my opinion) A groove suits her quite nicely. N groove has some nice traits as well such as counter breakstock super, rollcancels, running low jab, etc but however i dont think its as good as A groove for her.

i agree with ryu being better than bottom 10. hes definately midtier.

i think youre quite mistaken about sagat. you said standing lk sucks. i think youre very wrong about this. probably his second best poke. its very useful for pushing people to the corner and overall zoning of many many characters. crouching lk is good like you said. standing mk is sagat's best poke. not his safest but i value it over his crouching and standing fierce. the range of this move alone makes it good. its also fast and it does decent damage. its the best move he has against far poking opponents like sakura and blanka. when you're playing footsies with them standing mk is a must have. and if youre winning without it then try using it. you'll be surprised how good it is. its safe to say that every one of sagat's normals is good.

i would have the say that hibiki benefits the most from A groove not from N groove. the only thing i see N groove hibiki having over A hibiki is her low jump. run isnt bad either but she isnt much of a rushdown character so walk suits her just fine. its pretty useful for every character. A hibiki has counter and then activate, throw then activate, the most A groove custom combo mixups, useful rollcancels, and since shes best as a turtle character(my opinion) A groove suits her quite nicely. N groove has some nice traits as well such as counter breakstock super, rollcancels, running low jab, etc but however i dont think its as good as A groove for her.

Ok people for the record this is not an arguement so dont even think it.

LZJ, your only reasons for A-Hibiki arent acurate. All you list is a bunch of stuff that N-groove has too. You say that she has useful set ups to CCs, well N-groove has setups to big combos too. You can combo into her root 3 going my way then do that one super, fuck I forgot it's name. Thats around 10000 easy damage. and you can counter into that same super since you can store shit so fast in N. So the whole damaging combo thing sort-a falls through for you. And you said that she has useful RCs. You're forgetting that N-groove is just as RC accessable as A. You said she was a good turtle character, well you can turtle on N too. You just have more options incase you need to change up your style when the tables turn. What about counter movement, It works really good with Hibiki. And Small jump. All this gives N-hibiki a slight edge over A. A Hibiki's still good though.

In the end you have all the same options as A plus more.

I dont wanna' argue about Sagat, because Sagat is a very versitile character. If you know how to use him then whatever pokes you may have can be used effectively.

If you make an ass out of yourself, there will always be somebody to ride you. - Bruce Lee

Ok people for the record this is not an arguement so dont even think it.

LZJ, your only reasons for A-Hibiki arent acurate. All you list is a bunch of stuff that N-groove has too. You say that she has useful set ups to CCs, well N-groove has setups to big combos too. You can combo into her root 3 going my way then do that one super, fuck I forgot it's name. Thats around 10000 easy damage. and you can counter into that same super since you can store shit so fast in N. So the whole damaging combo thing sort-a falls through for you. And you said that she has useful RCs. You're forgetting that N-groove is just as RC accessable as A. You said she was a good turtle character, well you can turtle on N too. You just have more options incase you need to change up your style when the tables turn. What about counter movement, It works really good with Hibiki. And Small jump. All this gives N-hibiki a slight edge over A. A Hibiki's still good though.

In the end you have all the same options as A plus more.

I dont wanna' argue about Sagat, because Sagat is a very versitile character. If you know how to use him then whatever pokes you may have can be used effectively.

Really? I did not know N groove Hibiki could combo a super WITHOUT hittin you.

As far as Ryu being bottom 10, I actually might have overexaggerated. But he is low tier IMO. I think Kim is better than Ryu as well as chars like Mai and Terry.

cheese: to elaborate, geese's entire game revolves around getting inside and pressuring. that isn't going to happen against vega. his range with mp won't allow it. it sounds too simple, but believe me, that mp will shut geese the fuck down. and you're right, vega is faster than most other charcters and outranges them too. but i was just saying why he beats geese, not everyone else.

snake: standing lk with sagat is really good. stuffs a lot of attacks, including sagat and blanks's cr fp.

and n hibiki is amazing if you put in the time. but i think a hibiki is just a little better. resets, all those cc set ups, and she still has rc. but what do i know? i like k hibiki.

Ok people for the record this is not an arguement so dont even think it.

LZJ, your only reasons for A-Hibiki arent acurate. All you list is a bunch of stuff that N-groove has too. You say that she has useful set ups to CCs, well N-groove has setups to big combos too. You can combo into her root 3 going my way then do that one super, fuck I forgot it's name. Thats around 10000 easy damage. and you can counter into that same super since you can store shit so fast in N. So the whole damaging combo thing sort-a falls through for you. And you said that she has useful RCs. You're forgetting that N-groove is just as RC accessable as A. You said she was a good turtle character, well you can turtle on N too. You just have more options incase you need to change up your style when the tables turn. What about counter movement, It works really good with Hibiki. And Small jump. All this gives N-hibiki a slight edge over A. A Hibiki's still good though.

In the end you have all the same options as A plus more.

I dont wanna' argue about Sagat, because Sagat is a very versitile character. If you know how to use him then whatever pokes you may have can be used effectively.

N groove turtles are usually not as effective as A turtles because the subsystems of N groove are designed to get you close to the opponent. i'm pretty sure that was capcom's point to putting in low jump. breakstock is best used as a rushdown tactic. you break your stock while your opponent's guard is going down. countermovement is decent but you have to remember that hibiki's roll isnt that good in the first place. a fast roll like kim or iori is pretty effective but hibiki's roll is slow vulnerable. even if you counterroll sagat doing cr. fierce and tigersuper he can still hit you. also the way that activation is instant makes a powerful turtling tool. when youre guard is going you can activate to keep yourself alive and with hibiki's activate it can be scary for rushers since theyre so close to hibiki. if theyre point blank range you can now mix them up with a low lk or with a RH throw. N groove can combo into super yes i forgot to add that but its not as good i dont think. activation is by far better than level 3 super. we're allowed to argue but only over the game.

cheese: to elaborate, geese's entire game revolves around getting inside and pressuring. that isn't going to happen against vega. his range with mp won't allow it. it sounds too simple, but believe me, that mp will shut geese the fuck down. and you're right, vega is faster than most other charcters and outranges them too. but i was just saying why he beats geese, not everyone else.

snake: standing lk with sagat is really good. stuffs a lot of attacks, including sagat and blanks's cr fp.

and n hibiki is amazing if you put in the time. but i think a hibiki is just a little better. resets, all those cc set ups, and she still has rc. but what do i know? i like k hibiki.

K geese beats vega in any groove. Just Defend and low jump really break his game down. vega does have ways of dealing with low jump. he has standing RH and he has RC roll claw. the RC roll claw's first hit does trash damage and his standing RH usually trades with low jumps unless you anticipate it. geese in K groove has low jump RH and low jump MK. both monster moves and when traded with vega's attacks do more damage so it is indeed good to trade. just defend really screws up cr. MP. after a cr. MP try to sweep if youre in range. if vega hit you with the first part of the cr. MP and you JDed it right you can sweep him. if you JDed the second part and are close enough you can make him block the sweep or if youre too far you can st. RH to get in. vega's guard goes very fast. geese is designed to break guards in K groove. A vega does good against K geese but not good enough IMO. that is what this is though. just my opinion.

I think alot of people are overrating Vega due to Ricky being just damn good and having fast ass reflexes. IMO the Vega players that win, are the ones who have excellent reflexes and very very very good knowledge of footsies. And even then, he is tedious as fuck to use.

He has good keepaway with good reflexes but the fact is, unless you are A vega, and have meter, IMO, you can play risky vs Vega. Because guess what, if you take smart risks and guess wrong, you'll get RHed out of a jump or even airthrown or slided on a whiffed sweep. But whereas if you land you strategic risk, vega loses like anywhere between 1/4 a life bar to 80% plus another knockdown to get back on him and kill him off. So weighing these options... I'd say the match is in Geese's favor because of that. The reason A Vega is the best Vega is because Vega is usually jiggling around when he is at his best... so A Vega can do good damage without having to charge. Other Vegas... have to sit to do real damage... thereby reducing Vega's effectiveness on the ground game.

Also as LZJ said, Geese has ability to punish mindless cr MPs, so you actually have to use them to punish whiffs. Also Geese's st RH is so much better than it seems. It helps him get in and setup JDs and which continue the offense. Think of Geese st RH like Rock's qcb LP/MP type pokes.

cheese: i'm not even talking about ricky, although i heard a bunch of stuff about that from people at evo. playing casual, i notice geese just loses to vega. you're right about being able to dish out huge damage if vega fucks up, but in my experience, those chances are few and far between. just getting a knockdown on him can be a serious pain. maybe it's just my playing style though so i won't act like i'm jesus with geese.

and i think p and c vega are by far more annoying. especially p. i hate that bitch.

man, BAS using A-Honda just proves how damn good Honda is. No damaging CC at all, just pure RC cheese. And he switches out A-Sak for Honda.

that doesn't seem too surprising though. his sakura has always been his weakest point on his team, then his blanka and bison always picked up the slack. this way, you almost GUARANTEE his second character to come in with meter, and honda can grind down the fight so that he either takes out the opponent's first character or leaves him with little life.

what i found most surprising about the switch out was his team order, A-honda/BLANKA/r2 bison. i would imagine blanka would be last instead of bison. any ideas on why that is? BUKTOOTH, you said sawada could take evo with A-zangief/blanka/bison, any reasons why you think that team order is stronger (ie blanka/bison instead of bison/blanka)? maybe it's because people play A-sakura/bison/blanka IN THAT ORDER in japan, so blanka doesn't have to worry about being chipped to death by sakura. even then, sakura's custom isn't really guaranteed against a competent blanka.

Really? I did not know N groove Hibiki could combo a super WITHOUT hittin you.

As far as Ryu being bottom 10, I actually might have overexaggerated. But he is low tier IMO. I think Kim is better than Ryu as well as chars like Mai and Terry.

When I posted that shit I wasnt including any setup that any Hibiki player may have. And Ryu is mid tier, how is he not? How can you compare him to characters like Kim and Terry? There both Mid tier too. IMO Terry and Kim are UPPER mid.

N groove turtles are usually not as effective as A turtles because the subsystems of N groove are designed to get you close to the opponent. i'm pretty sure that was capcom's point to putting in low jump. breakstock is best used as a rushdown tactic. you break your stock while your opponent's guard is going down. countermovement is decent but you have to remember that hibiki's roll isnt that good in the first place. a fast roll like kim or iori is pretty effective but hibiki's roll is slow vulnerable. even if you counterroll sagat doing cr. fierce and tigersuper he can still hit you. also the way that activation is instant makes a powerful turtling tool. when youre guard is going you can activate to keep yourself alive and with hibiki's activate it can be scary for rushers since theyre so close to hibiki. if theyre point blank range you can now mix them up with a low lk or with a RH throw. N groove can combo into super yes i forgot to add that but its not as good i dont think. activation is by far better than level 3 super. we're allowed to argue but only over the game.

Once again I have to say that your just bringing stuff up that N has too. You're bisically saying that you can turtle better on A, because it has less. You have the same basic turtling options on N just as you do on A. You even have a few more attack options incase you need to go on the offensive. And a turtle character shouldnt' let there GC get so low, but if it does then power up on N and there most likely gonna back up. If they dont then you can get a super on them. Bow down to the power of a Lv.3 to a lv.1!

I think alot of people are overrating Vega due to Ricky being just damn good and having fast ass reflexes. IMO the Vega players that win, are the ones who have excellent reflexes and very very very good knowledge of footsies. And even then, he is tedious as fuck to use.

IMO, Vega is good no matter what! I was just as suprised as you when Ricky Ortiz used him at Evo and did that good with him. And Vega isnt a very hard character. Like you said, all you need is some good knowledge of footsies and a few other elements that a little practice can overcome. Vega isnt very difficult to learn at all.

-it has great priority. beats out athenas c. fierce and trades with cammy's hk. infact, its crucial against those two.

and A hibiki > any other hibiki. being able to do damage almost for free with activation just makes her much better than any other hibiki. level 3 is nice, but you wont be landing it much against the better players.

ssf4ae tier list regarding Gen:

D Proto: and where is Gen?
oORYUOo: you cannot tier what you cannot see

that doesn't seem too surprising though. his sakura has always been his weakest point on his team, then his blanka and bison always picked up the slack. this way, you almost GUARANTEE his second character to come in with meter, and honda can grind down the fight so that he either takes out the opponent's first character or leaves him with little life.

what i found most surprising about the switch out was his team order, A-honda/BLANKA/r2 bison. i would imagine blanka would be last instead of bison. any ideas on why that is? BUKTOOTH, you said sawada could take evo with A-zangief/blanka/bison, any reasons why you think that team order is stronger (ie blanka/bison instead of bison/blanka)? maybe it's because people play A-sakura/bison/blanka IN THAT ORDER in japan, so blanka doesn't have to worry about being chipped to death by sakura. even then, sakura's custom isn't really guaranteed against a competent blanka.

peace

For BAS, I think he always prefers to have Bison R2 as a safety net. I don't think that necessarily speaks for the rest of Japan, as I've seen many permutations of Team ARE. Blanka/sak/bison is common as well.