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I think we've had many previous threads on parent education, but how do you educate parents about the low quality of institutions without resorting to comparison?

I don't know how it can be done, but if people know what music learning is about, then they can use that knowledge to weight what is being presented by such institutions (and lesser teachers). For example, my priority is skills which I know take time. So if an institution says that they'll have me playing advanced music in short order, that goes against what I know - that is my point of comparison.

I wouldn't consider the word "institution" appropriate for a "strip-mall" music school, which is just a business. I would be surprised to see any institution claim to have you playing advanced music in short order.

Between cheap, good, and convenient, you can have only two:--You can have cheap and convenient but not good.--You can have convenient and good but not cheap.--You can have cheap and good but not convenient.I think it is rarely you can get all three: cheap, good and convenient. So, I think it is really depends on parents which factor they emphasis and which factor they can live without.

I am differentiating between a private practice, and a practice that is done in a place organized for that purpose, involving more than one individual engaged in that practice.

Thank your for the clarification Keystring. The word institution does not have to do with private, individual teaching versus more than one teacher. Naming as an institution a "strip-mall music school" might lead to confusion for some people.

Your implied definition is incorrect, and nobody else was confused. Regardless, this seems a strawman tactic, Landorrano, where you take a post full of ideas, pull out one word which gets redefined, and make the discussion about that word rather than what has been posted? What about the ideas?

The other is the teacher as employee for a business operation, which may be a music store, music teaching studio, or even a college or university. I think we'd want to consider the college as a separate category and just consider more obviously commercial operations.

There are problems with either approach.

There are superb teachers on the cottage industry side, but there are no entry requirements and no oversight, so there are also large numbers of unqualified and poorly qualified teachers. It is truly buyer beware, with the additional problem that most buyers CANNOT tell the difference.

There are also superb teachers within the business operation system, at least one of whom has posted here. There are also horror stories, some of which have been discussed here. It is buyer beware here, too, with the additional problem that buyers are conditioned to think they have some protection by going to an established commercial business. Managers may have policies more designed to maximize profit than learning - or they may feel offering a quality product brings in business and increases their profit long term.

keystring,I get the impression you think the commercial industry model is inherently flawed, but that may not be what you intended.

I tend to think that the root cause of problems with either system is the same: there is no easy way for the customer to judge the quality of the product, so market place forces cannot result in good teachers getting paid what they deserve, which is a lot more than they get now, or poor teachers being driven out.

I pay my teacher quite a lot per lesson, as well as driving 3 hours one way, but there was a specific reason to go to someone with a demonstrated expertise in that area, and there was no doubt about his skill. That's a case where the market forces work, but it's far from the normal.

I also realize I'm using capitalistic terminology rather than musical or educational, and that may rankle. Sorry.

Apropos of nothing, I gave a first lesson today, in his home, to a 51 year old adult. (guitar)He told me that he got more out of today's lesson than he had got from the local music store's 'Studio' in many months.

In his words: "I felt like I was being taught by a 6th grader, just wanting to show off"

Tim, what you said here is very logical. I agree that both situations has good teachers and bad teachers. Here is my viewpoint of two situations (piano teachers that function as sole-proprietor and piano teachers that function as contractor or employee at an established school)

Piano teacher as sole-proprietor:Relationship of student-teacher can establish because there is only one teacher. As Kevin said, parents might want a piano teacher more than just a piano teacher, parents preferred someone to establish relationship in their children's life. In case of conflict, piano teacher, which is the only "employee or boss" in this case has to solve the conflict. If the conflict is not solve, then parents has to seek new piano teacher. In fear of losing students, usually piano teacher will try his best to find out the problem and to solve it.

Piano teacher as contractor or employee at established school:Relationship between student and teacher has a "director" (which is the boss) in between. In fear of losing students, the director has to be in between this relationship. In case of conflict, even piano teacher wants to solve the problem, the director can just easily change the teacher. In this case, the problems is not solved. The piano student will have the same problem with new teacher. In surface, it seems that everything will go good with new teacher. It is like changing the label of the medicine with another new label and resell it. So, every year or every time when the problems come, the director change teacher to cover up instead of really focus to find out the problem and provide a solution. In this case, student not really improving. After changing to five different teachers, I am sure the parents give up piano and never wanted to deal with piano again. Just my thoughts.

One thing i neglected to mention is that not all customers want a high quality product. If a parent sends their child to piano lessons for general enrichment rather than to acquire performance skill, as many do, then the level of teaching required is not as high and the price they will be willing to pay is much lower. The unspoken elephant here is this may be the target market share of the strip mall.

And the corollary becomes that if you want really good teaching, you go to the private instructor, any private instructor. And of course that turns out to be completely false.

The enrichment parent may not detect problems with either teacher. So your scenario may not apply.

Your idea that individual teachers are supposed to enter into a more personal emotional relationship scares me a little. And I think to the extent that this happens it makes solving problems more difficult. Leaving that teacher, even if no progress is being made, becomes more difficult as well.

As far as solving problems within the business, any boss quickly becomes tired of dealing with a problem employee and lets them go. In the private world students walk out the door and another one walks in, with no improvement in teaching made. On the other hand, a boss is going to tolerate a mediocre teacher who gets the job done and doesn't make waves.

Here's a minority view. The only really bad piano teaching is teaching that makes someone quit. And quit for a long time.

I think it's great that in Irvine, California, so many kids are learning the piano. In strip malls. In living rooms. In private studios. No matter where they take lessons. No matter from whom. No matter what they pay.

I agree with that, as I mention before between good, convenient and cheap, parents cannot have all. The most they can have is only two. So, they need to decide which area is important to them.

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And the corollary becomes that if you want really good teaching, you go to the private instructor, any private instructor. And of course that turns out to be completely false.

I agree with that. However, if parents only go to any private teachers, the chances of them getting a good teacher is more than going to strip mall. I am not saying that private teachers are always better 100% of the time. I am saying that parents will get better chances of getting better teacher. I do not know the math what would be the percentage exactly, but I afraid that the saying is correct, at least in this town that I live.

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Your idea that individual teachers are supposed to enter into a more personal emotional relationship scares me a little.

It is actually depends on how you see it. You know that we have all different type of people. With Myers Briggs, that is 16 types of people in this world. You might not be the ISFP, but ESTJ, so, this kind of personal relationship scares you, so, I won’t blame you. There are so many types of piano teachers and so many types of piano students. I think here is the guideline about how to decide if this piano teacher is worth studying with, and if this teacher is worth staying with for:1. You look at their recitals: How are her students playing? 2. You look at their test or festival results: Are they usually doing good? Or fail? Or only concentrate on test and forget about balance? Can those students that score very good in test read music at their level or they can’t sight-read at all?3. You look at their students: Are they happy piano students?4. You look at yourself: Are you improving? Do you understand more? Do you like piano lessons? Can you relate to your teacher? Do you like your teacher in general?

I think that liking one’s teacher is very important. I cannot study with a teacher that I do not like personally even if that teacher has the best qualification to teach me. Maybe this is just me, so, just my opinions.

This is not a good attitude toward learning. Does one have to "like" the teacher in order to learn? What are the chances that a student will go through 12 years of school and like every single teacher?

For example, I had a horrible conflict of personality with my Pre-Calculus teacher. Not that I wanted to switch teachers, but since there was just one teacher teaching this subject at my school, nobody could switch teachers. Instead of complaining and whining about the situation, I buckled down and studied harder than ever. I also helped my classmates who were confused by the teacher's instructions.

I think it is more important to teach our children to work through their difficulties, making compromises if needed. If the conflict is truly catastrophic, then changing teachers becomes an option. But it should not be the first (or even the second, or third) option.

Piano is an art, and as such needs at least some skill which is lain down with foundations by someone who knows what he is doing. This has nothing to do with future concert pianists or elite thinking. To enjoy something at any level, even just "for fun", if you don't get those foundations eventually it peters out - the student gets cheated. There are also serious situations where customers have been "kept happy" in a Music Man sort of way, and then those students have an enormous struggle with their next teacher trying to undo all that nonsense. It's not enough to keep students in the studio at all costs, and "liking" the teacher. Teaching is about teaching and learning. You do not have a soft drink fantasy world, where we pretend that by drinking a fizzy drink we will "teach the world to sing in perfect harmony - creating world peace and happiness".

This is a general comment, and not referring to any place in particular.

However, if parents only go to any private teachers, the chances of them getting a good teacher is more than going to strip mall.

This is the heart of the debate, right?

Your statement is surely GRAT (generally regarded as true), especially in this forum which is largely populated with private teachers.

But it is not at all clear to me that it is factual.

Depends a little bit on your definitions of good. Are you thinking pass fail, or exceptional? I'd be inclined to accept your unwarrented assertion that the number of exceptional teachers in the private world is larger than the number of exceptional teachers in the commercial world. There's no evidence, but it makes sense to me.

However, that's not the comparison to make. You need to compare the number of exceptional teachers to the number of frankly bad ones in both worlds. Anyone can hang out a shingle privately. To sign up with a commercial school requires some level of credentials. It's not going to screen out ALL the bad ones, but it will get most. (unwarranted assertion on MY part) In the private world, there is no screening.

If rather than good, you used the word acceptable, would you still feel they are more likely to hit one privately? Considering most parents probably aren't able to do the level of research you suggested, with either private or commercial?

I am totally agreed that this is not a good attitude towards learning. However, the fact is some populations are people-oriented than goal-oriented. Have you heard the saying of: It is not what you know gets you the job, but who you know gets you the job. We all know that it is not a good attitude towards finding an employee to work for you, but most of us are doing this anyway. So what?

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I think it is more important to teach our children to work through their difficulties, making compromises if needed. If the conflict is truly catastrophic, then changing teachers becomes an option. But it should not be the first (or even the second, or third) option.

I think using “I do not like the teacher” as a reason to change teacher is a very lame reason. It should be the last reason.

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There are also serious situations where customers have been "kept happy" in a Music Man sort of way, and then those students have an enormous struggle with their next teacher trying to undo all that nonsense.

That is where the integrity comes in. Remember that Kevin is not complaint that Mr. Tong is not a good piano teacher. Kevin is complaining that Mr. Tong is not being honest. So, a good piano teacher is the one that able to keep all customers happy, teach in balance and correct way, and yet being honest in assessment. A good piano teacher will tell his student that he is not good when he is not good. A bad piano teacher will just tell his bad students that they are doing good in order to keep them happy and coming back for more lessons.

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Lastly, I did learn a lot from all of you coming from different viewpoints, thank you again!

Considering most parents probably aren't able to do the level of research you suggested, with either private or commercial?

If they are unable to do the level of research I suggested, they are not serious in taking piano lesson (either be very good in performing or just play for fun, they are not serious), so, I think the strip mall piano institute are catering for them.

Thank you, I like it this way. Yes, I think my statement is GRAT and I have no desire to prove that it is factual because 1. I do not have the statistic2. The definition of good, bad, acceptable is varies from person to person.

So, let's keep it as GRAT instead of debating if it is a factual or not.

Considering most parents probably aren't able to do the level of research you suggested, with either private or commercial?

If they are unable to do the level of research I suggested, they are not serious in taking piano lesson (either be very good in performing or just play for fun, they are not serious), so, I think the strip mall piano institute are catering for them.

I am fine with that. It is not my business.

The kind of research you suggest is appropriate for a conservatory bound student with a knowledgable parent, but inaccessible to the average person.

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1. You look at their recitals: How are her students playing?

How do you do that? Most recitals aren't public or publicized. And if you are musically naive, how can you assess the student performances?

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2. You look at their test or festival results: Are they usually doing good? Or fail? Or only concentrate on test and forget about balance? Can those students that score very good in test read music at their level or they can’t sight-read at all?

Are these results public information in your area? Not in mine.

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3. You look at their students: Are they happy piano students?

What, they're going to give you access to their student roster so you can interview them? Or are you just going to sit in on a few days lessons?

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4. You look at yourself: Are you improving? Do you understand more? Do you like piano lessons? Can you relate to your teacher? Do you like your teacher in general?

Liking your teacher has unfortunately nothing to do with their teaching skill set, only with their people skills.

Tim, some of the things EZpiano mentioned is indeed not in the reach of the average person, however, I think your jump from the "average person" to a "conservatory bound student" disregards a huge chunk of piano students who are in between.

And EZpiano's suggested checklist that you are arguing against is for both teacher's "worth studying with" and teachers "worth staying with", just FYI.

While a teacher's teaching skill set and people skill might seem like they have nothing to do with each other, I think unless you're teaching robots or computers, or maybe people who can overlook social short-comings in favor of better teaching, people skills are still a very important consideration in finding a teacher.

By the way, I'm VERY impressed by your dedication to your music studies...driving 3 hours for lessons.

In general, I do not agree with EZ's list as a way for parents or older students to educate themselves for finding a teacher - not as an only step for sure. If you go to a recital without knowing anything, you cannot necessarily judge what you are hearing. Even if you can hear that the playing is good, you don't know whether the students only learn two or three pieces a year which are honed to perfection, and you may not know that this is a concern.

Before you do anything, you should figure out what your goals are for taking lessons, and you can't figure that out until you know more about lessons. Otherwise you'll visit a teacher who says that the students progress "fast", and you think that's fantastic.

I will argue that getting good foundations is an important goal, and this is not limited to "conservatory bound" or elite students. The person who wants to play casual music needs this as much as anyone else. These are the kinds of goals that prospective students ought to be aware of before they attend concerts or look at exam grades (if that even tells them anything).

Meanwhile INFORMED parents will also take some of the pressure off of teachers to compete based on the nonsense out there, which prospective customers are induced to believe is what it's about.

And EZpiano's suggested checklist that you are arguing against is for both teacher's "worth studying with" and teachers "worth staying with", just FYI.

I didn't mean to argue against it. I think it is exactly the information I would want. I just don't see any practical way to get it.

I wonder if this might be easier with the commercial studio than with the private teacher.

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By the way, I'm VERY impressed by your dedication to your music studies...driving 3 hours for lessons.

I wasn't making any progress, and working hard didn't help, nor did working harder. The most likely conclusion was that I was doing something wrong. (Practice doesn't make perfect, it just makes permanent.) So the most logical fix was to find someone who could tell me how to do it right. At my age I didn't want to spend any time teacher swapping, and the distant one was a sure bet by reputation. I was a little surprised he was willing to take on an older amateur but it has worked well so far.

Hi Tim!!Wow, you drive three hours to your current piano teacher? How long you have been study with him/her? Do you have piano teacher in your town that is less than 30 minutes away? Is your teacher charge a lot less than teachers in your town? In short, what is the reason you choose your teacher?How do you know your teacher? Word of mouth? Website? Craiglist? (Add on: Is your teacher a commercial teacher at strip mall or a private teacher teach at home?) How was your experience when first time meeting with your current teacher?How is your learning? You think you learn something new every lesson? You think your teacher is helping you to achieve your goal? What are the reasons you keep going back to the same teacher and drive 3 hours away and not thinking about changing teacher at all?The reason that I ask is because I think this issues might be easier if I can see your viewpoint and where you came from. I am pretty sure you will enlighten me! Again, I do not need you to agree with my viewpoints, but I am sure I can learn a lot from you.

To sign up with a commercial school requires some level of credentials. It's not going to screen out ALL the bad ones, but it will get most. (unwarranted assertion on MY part) In the private world, there is no screening.

Yes, you need to be at “some” level of credential to work in commercial school. However, what if the boss of the commercial school is not honest? What if the boss lower his standard just because he can’t find anyone higher credential to accept his offer of only 40% of parents are paying? If you read Kevin’s blog, he said his boss Mr. Tong asked him to lie at his first lesson with students. I wonder what lies that Mr. Tong wanted Kevin to say?

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In the private world, there is no screening.

It is not true. I disagree. If you just pick whoever you can find from CL, without checking if the teacher belongs to any teacher’s organization, then YOU are not screening, YOU are not doing the homework to screen. For me, belong to a teacher’s organization is the basic screening, with standard of MTAC, at least at this point, teachers has to have at least bachelor degree to join MTAC. (ANZ will tell you that some grandfather teachers do not have bachelor degree but they still MTAC member because they did not have this rules very long time ago).

In commercial school, let’s say the boss hire teacher A, B, C and D to teach at school. Could it be only Teacher A and B has MTAC member and Teacher C and D do not have the credential to join MTAC? When the CM test is approaching, could the boss ask Teacher A and B to register for Teacher C and D just to cover up the fact that he is not hiring teachers who is qualified enough to teach? We are talking about the integrity of the boss of the commercial school here. A boss with less standard of integrity would do this. I am sure a boss with high standard of integrity would not do this. If a boss is doing this, how are you going to screen out Teacher C and D? Can Teacher A and B say no to their boss? They can try, but you think some boss without integrity will not threaten Teacher A and B saying that if you don’t register for Teacher C and D, I will fire you?

In a private world, if a teacher working in her own basement and teaching a group of students, when CM test is coming, and she is not a MTAC member, can she register her students for test? She cannot cover up the fact that she is not a member of MTAC, unless she can find another teacher who is willing to register her students for her. What would be the chances of her getting someone to do this for her?

Compare two worlds: commercial and private. I am not talking about which one has more chances of getting a real non-MTAC member. I am talking about which one has more chances of getting a “FAKE MTAC member”