We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Posted 25 December 2012 - 07:59 PM

blind pew, on 25 December 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

Why would anybody worship a god that allows children to be molested and killed? If you want my worship you need to give something in return.

When you steal, you deprive someone of their hard earned money and wealth, when you kill, you deprive someone of their family, when you abuse or molest, you are hurting not only them but their family.... in all of that, who is the guilty party? You or God?

If you give money or clothing to those who are in need, if you save someone from certain death, if you prevent abuse or molestation, who is the hero, You or God?

God has given us the ability to determine whether we are agents of good or evil, are you an agent for or against entropy, are you a builder or a destroyer?

Don't blame God for what others do, or fail to do. You cannot blame him for those acts or lack of them, if blame is to be placed it is on the author of those acts, whether they be good or bad.

Do you blame Alfred Nobel for all the wars and deaths his inventions have caused?

The creator is not responsible for what others do with his invention. You do not blame Henry Ford for the fact that a drunk driver killed a member of your family on a DUI.

The rules were laid down from the beginning, you live in a deterministic universe, where all things are predetermined, like a universal domino effect. There is only one thing that is not determined, your choices and their effect on the world

"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

"Fear. The spectacle of fearsome acts. Somebody steals from me, I cut off his hands. He offends me, I cut out his tongue. He rises against me, I cut off his head, stick it on a pike, raise it high up so all on the streets can see. That's what preserves the order of things. Fear." - Bill Cutting.

Or, it may just be indoctrination, the fear of having nothingness after death (I'd love that actually)...or maybe they enjoy some of the sick stuff this god in question does.

"Be peaceful, be courteous, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery."

When you steal, you deprive someone of their hard earned money and wealth, when you kill, you deprive someone of their family, when you abuse or molest, you are hurting not only them but their family.... in all of that, who is the guilty party? You or God?

If you give money or clothing to those who are in need, if you save someone from certain death, if you prevent abuse or molestation, who is the hero, You or God?

God has given us the ability to determine whether we are agents of good or evil, are you an agent for or against entropy, are you a builder or a destroyer?

Don't blame God for what others do, or fail to do. You cannot blame him for those acts or lack of them, if blame is to be placed it is on the author of those acts, whether they be good or bad.

Do you blame Alfred Nobel for all the wars and deaths his inventions have caused?

The creator is not responsible for what others do with his invention. You do not blame Henry Ford for the fact that a drunk driver killed a member of your family on a DUI.

The rules were laid down from the beginning, you live in a deterministic universe, where all things are predetermined, like a universal domino effect. There is only one thing that is not determined, your choices and their effect on the world

This is correct free will and all that however, when God gave several of his chosen people permission to kill, take land, condone rape etc. who is to blame in your opinion?

I don't know what you believe in terms of a god, although you seem to exhibit the biblical god Yahweh, although correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited by Sean93, 25 December 2012 - 08:19 PM.

"Be peaceful, be courteous, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery."

We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Posted 25 December 2012 - 08:46 PM

Sean93, on 25 December 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

This is correct free will and all that however, when God gave several of his chosen people permission to kill, take land, condone rape etc. who is to blame in your opinion?

I don't know what you believe in terms of a god, although you seem to exhibit the biblical god Yahweh, although correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, I do accept the Yahwehst view, although not in the absolute traditional christian sense. That being said, I do believe that God did order the deaths of many through his followers and those, yes we can lay at his door, but if we are going by the bible and what it says, those killed were not considered human, they were hybrids (as in all those in the land of Canaan when Joshua arrived there. If we trace the ancestries of those Canaanite tribes, we will come back to the Nephilim of old.

If you are interested here is a video that clarifies and expands on the matter of the Nephilim...

Aside from this, there are many other deaths recorded in the bible, many of which were not ordered by God himself, but by the Priesthood for any number of reasons, those you cannot place at the door of God. They are the exclusive responsibility of the killers, even when supposedly done in the "name of God".

Edited by Jor-el, 25 December 2012 - 09:05 PM.

"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

Yes, I do accept the Yahwehst view, although not in the absolute traditional christian sense. That being said, I do believe that God did order the deaths of many through his followers and those, yes we can lay at his door, but if we are going by the bible and what it says, those killed were not considered human, they were hybrids (as in all those in the land of Canaan when Joshua arrived there. If we trace the ancestries of those Canaanite tribes, we will come back to the Nephilim of old.

Aside from this, there are many other deaths recorded in the bible, many of which were not ordered by God himself, but by the Priesthood for any number of reasons, those you cannot place at the door of God. They are the exclusive responsibility of the killers, even when supposedly done in the "name of God".

Not every single person killed on Gods' command were Nephlim, there are plenty of people who were human. I think everyone needs to accept that God/Yahweh has done some things that are bad and unfair and that were only written into the bible because the zeitgeist of the time allowed it. Take a look at the laws of Leviticus and tell me that the zeitgeist/laws of today wold agree with these, that they would be implemented into the fabric of society an treated as just and moral.

Yahweh may be real, and I acknowledge the fact that if he is real, that I am hammered if his laws are anything to go by...as are most if not all of us.

I often wonder: If the bible had been written today if Jesus' ministry had begun today, would books like Leviticus and the stories of death and other horrible acts still be in it? I doubt it because otherwise, the educated and sensible people would instantly say "Go **** yourself with that madness".

"Be peaceful, be courteous, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery."

We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Posted 25 December 2012 - 09:37 PM

Sean93, on 25 December 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

Not every single person killed on Gods' command were Nephlim, there are plenty of people who were human. I think everyone needs to accept that God/Yahweh has done some things that are bad and unfair and that were only written into the bible because the zeitgeist of the time allowed it. Take a look at the laws of Leviticus and tell me that the zeitgeist/laws of today wold agree with these, that they would be implemented into the fabric of society an treated as just and moral.

I agree, we do tend to look back into the past with our present sensitivities and "morals" and judge the past by the present. Some of those rules are not applicable at all in western society according to how we tend to view the world. The inverse is also true, if past societies could see our world, and got past all the wonderful things, they would call us libertines and indulgently stupid. Sending criminals to jail, giving them counseling and three square meals a day... wow.

Quote

Yahweh may be real, and I acknowledge the fact that if he is real, that I am hammered if his laws are anything to go by...as are most if not all of us.

Ha but you see, Gods attiude toward us has also changed, because he treats people according to their worldview. We are much more knowledgeable of the universe, we can see more clearly much that was hidden to those of ages past. Our sensitivities and perceptions have altered and thus his approach to us has too.

Why is God today considered to be a God of "Love"? Because he himself led us on the that path of enlightenment. What was unthinkable back then is accepted today as the natural order of things, that all men are imbued with unalienable rights... That all men are equal, not only before each other but also before God himself.

So, what is important to God, after all is said and done, the rules? or something much more important?

Mark 12:28-34

28And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” 29Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. 33And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.

Quote

I often wonder: If the bible had been written today if Jesus' ministry had begun today, would books like Leviticus and the stories of death and other horrible acts still be in it? I doubt it because otherwise, the educated and sensible people would instantly say "Go **** yourself with that madness".

Yes they would, because there is one thing that is unchangeable, it is human nature and what applied then still happens today, from a lie, to stabbing others in the back, to poisoning, to murder, to greed and the love of power as well as overcoming impossible odds, of great leaps of faith, of loving ones enemies and changing their attitude toward you by your example, of martyrdom, when they kill you anyway.

The essence of those stories are about human nature and how God can change that nature.... the whole bible is about that if you read carefully.

People of Jesus time also called him crazy because they didn't understand that he came to change their natures, not the rules that surrounded them.

Edited by Jor-el, 25 December 2012 - 09:44 PM.

"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

I agree, we do tend to look back into the past with our present sensitivities and "morals" and judge the past by the present. Some of those rules are not applicable at all in western society according to how we tend to view the world. The inverse is also true, if past societies could see our world, and got past all the wonderful things, they would call us libertines and indulgently stupid. Sending criminals to jail, giving them counseling and three square meals a day... wow.

Ha but you see, Gods attiude toward us has also changed, because he treats people according to their worldview. We are much more knowledgeable of the universe, we can see more clearly much that was hidden to those of ages past. Our sensitivities and perceptions have altered and thus his approach to us has too.

Why is God today considered to be a God of "Love"? Because he himself led us on the that path of enlightenment. What was unthinkable back then is accepted today as the natural order of things, that all men are imbued with unalienable rights... That all men are equal, not only before each other but also before God himself.

So, what is important to God, after all is said and done, the rules? or something much more important?

Mark 12:28-34

28And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” 29Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. 33And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.

Yes they would, because there is one thing that is unchangeable, it is human nature and what applied then still happens today, from a lie, to stabbing others in the back, to poisoning, to murder, to greed and the love of power as well as overcoming impossible odds, of great leaps of faith, of loving ones enemies and changing their attitude toward you by your example, of martyrdom, when they kill you anyway.

The essence of those stories are about human nature and how God can change that nature.... the whole bible is about that if you read carefully.

Whatever floats your boat dude, we're all just human really and don't know any more than each other in the grander scheme of things. I'd rather not let this turn into one of them angry debates over god and the bible, they're always futile and become hackneyed quickly!

"Be peaceful, be courteous, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery."

We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Posted 25 December 2012 - 10:00 PM

Sean93, on 25 December 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

Whatever floats your boat dude, we're all just human really and don't know any more than each other in the grander scheme of things. I'd rather not let this turn into one of them angry debates over god and the bible, they're always futile and become hackneyed quickly!

And so say we all !!

Edited by Jor-el, 25 December 2012 - 10:01 PM.

"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

When you steal, you deprive someone of their hard earned money and wealth, when you kill, you deprive someone of their family, when you abuse or molest, you are hurting not only them but their family.... in all of that, who is the guilty party? You or God?

If you give money or clothing to those who are in need, if you save someone from certain death, if you prevent abuse or molestation, who is the hero, You or God?

God has given us the ability to determine whether we are agents of good or evil, are you an agent for or against entropy, are you a builder or a destroyer?

Don't blame God for what others do, or fail to do. You cannot blame him for those acts or lack of them, if blame is to be placed it is on the author of those acts, whether they be good or bad.

Do you blame Alfred Nobel for all the wars and deaths his inventions have caused?

The creator is not responsible for what others do with his invention. You do not blame Henry Ford for the fact that a drunk driver killed a member of your family on a DUI.

The rules were laid down from the beginning, you live in a deterministic universe, where all things are predetermined, like a universal domino effect. There is only one thing that is not determined, your choices and their effect on the world

How can you prevent something you cant foresee? God is supposed to be able to know things before they happen right? Dont you think if somebody could have prevented that shooting at sandy hook they would have? Give me a break