The 3rd Party E-Cat report has generated a lot of interest since its publication this week, and there are many people who are eager for more information and further verification. I have been in conversation with members of the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project (MFMP) this week about the possibility of raising funds to purchase a 1 MW E-Cat low temperature plant (the only model on the market at the moment) that can be truly independently tested, visited by the public, and put to work in an open and transparent way.

Below is a draft proposal that the MFMP has developed and is seeking input from the public about the idea. Please examine the document and provide any feedback you think will be useful. All thoughtful suggestions and ideas will be carefully considered.

E-Cat World is committed to providing support to a well-developed fundraising effort like this to purchase an E-Cat plant that can be demonstrated to the public in a clear and open way.

About the MFMP

The Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project (MFMP) is run by Quantum Heat C.I.C. which is legally a non-profit Community Interest Company registered in the United Kingdom. The directors cannot receive a dividend and if the company is dissolved, assets are legally required to be liquidated with proceeds to be donated to the international charity “Save the Children”. Futher information can be found at www.quantumheat.org

It has 3 aims:

Show to the world there is a new practical primary energy source we call the New Fire

Once shown, help develop peoples understanding of what the New Fire is

Help promote the development and uptake of the New Fire in all its various guises

New potential proposal to promote wide acceptance of the 1 MW low temperature E-Cat unit and ongoing income for open research

We are finally resolving the last elements of our Kickstarter campaign ready for launch. It currently has a base fundraising target of £50,000 and ‘stretch’ goals of £150,000 and £350,000 to raise funds to conclude reactor designs and distribute experiments broadly. Just so everybody understands, a stretch goal is when all of the core fundraising has been achieved so there would be no risk of our core work being not funded and the final stretch goal of buying a plant would only activate if the £1.5m figure was achieved.

Earlier in the year, our proposed plan was to have a final stretch goal to purchase a 1 MW reactor, but this was not favorably received when we intially brought it up so we removed it. There was a number of concerns with the original proposal. Key examples of this were that some people were not sure if E-Cat technology was real, and some preferred excess money to be put towards further open source research.

Now, in the light of the recent E-Cat report and the amount of interest it has generated, we are considering putting in a final stretch goal of £1.5m to fund the purchase of a 1 M E-Cat plant. This goal would only activate if the fundraising goal £1.5m figure was achieved.

The New Proposal

Stretch Goal 3: If we can raise over £1,500,000 we will seek to purchase a 1 MW low temperature E-Cat plant from Andrea Rossi, install it at a reputable university where it can operate and be visited for a period of at least 6 months, then transfer it to a permanent site where the heat can be put to good use in return for a fee. Revenues from the heat sold will flow back to the project as ongoing funding for the MFMP’s core mission.

The arrangement being suggested is as follows:

Raise money as stretch goal in the current campaign / or in a later Kickstarter campaign.

Send deposit (approx 1/3 of the total cost) to Rossi as commitment fee and to allow the plant to be built.

After the plant is built, perform acceptance testing at Rossi’s premises.

If testing is acceptable, ship plant immediately to a qualified, fully independent university, probably in Europe.

The university will be paid to host a performance and endurance test for at least 6 months, fully respecting Rossi’s IP in the process. We would want to publish power in and power out as a minimum and would supply university with equipment and expertise.

Unit would then be shipped to a suitable permanent site, for example, a community heat supply. The sale of energy to those benefiting from the heat may generate between €100k and €200k income per year for ongoing MFMP research.

There would be pledge rewards in the Kickstarter campaign for security-checked people to able to visit the unit at either site, or people could pay for visits. Paid visits would raise on-going revenue for MFMP.

Key benefits

If final stretch goal not met, all extra money raised goes to open LENR research by the MFMP

If stretch goal met but unit not delivered of fails to work – all money goes to open LENR research by the MFMP

If the goal is met and the unit works it will be tested by a fully independent body, settling all debate, making all key data available to the public

$1.5 million for a trailer size low temperature hot water heater seems unreasonable to me. Wouldn’t it make more sense to negotiate with Rossi in an attempt to borrow and/or lease one or several of the E-Cat LT units? If this was done for research purposes perhaps Rossi would be willing to offer suggestions as to a suitable agreement. If this approach was used perhaps the lack of safety certifications might not be so much of an issue. Also the additional research might gather data to help with getting the safety certification for individual units for special purposes such as for research. Seems to me more individual units in the field being used/tested would allow a better chance for safety certification as well as build confidence in the units. Wouldn’t this be a win-win situation for all involved?

Omega Z

Bill

From some of Rossi’s statements in the past, there is some wiggle room on the price. It’s a per case basis.

Also I think he only wants a few out there for the time being. Until they get an Idea what to expect from real world data. What kind of problems may arise.

Better to have a few if problems arise then hundreds or thousands. Basically the initial Roll-out is an R&D process in itself.

Bill

Omega Z

I think that there needs to be some beta testing of the low temperature (LT) E-Cat units to gather additional information about them as well as some safety certification testing. The E-Cat LT units are ready for that if they are already being sold as a 1-MW unit with 100 plus units. The units are in both R&D testing as well as being sold to customers in the large 1-MW format. Rossi should allow a limited number of the E-Cat LT units out to special purpose testing to speed up this whole process. This could be easily done without having a difficult time with keeping upgrades for those outstanding units. Rossi could loan or lease these units to qualified testers and researchers to gain third party experience with them. Some kind of arrangement could be done to provide Rossi with feedback in areas he is wanting to investigate. He has to do this sooner or later so perhaps now is the time to do it. Putting fresh eyes on the E-Cat LT units would be very productive and speed up this process. Note after two plus years he has only sold two 1-ME units. Some action should be taken to speed up this situation and get more customers/ testers/ researchers involved.

Alp

“Bob Greenyer on May 26, 2013 at 5:11 am

We asked rossi face to face in Switzerland last year if we could buy one module for test and he said no because of certification etc. That is a non starter.”

Does this make sense to you? Rossi says he can’t sell you a single module because it’s not properly certified (and presumably not safe enough for home use). But he can sell you 52 of them? That’s somehow less dangerous? And you’re not a home user. I’m sure he said he could sell them to industry but not for home use and your research is under “industry” and not home use.

So how does this make sense?

Sorry but I do not see any way you will get a million and a half dollars from crowd funding to buy an ecat made up of fifty two identical modules when tests on just one would be quite sufficient! A single customer allowing testing would also be sufficient. Why the secrecy if soon everyone will have these? Something here just doesn’t “compute”.

Roger Bird

I confess, Alp, that you make a lot of sense with this post. I would ask Rossi again about the single E-Cat, hot or warm. If he still says no but we can buy 52 of them plus the container, I would have to forget about Rossi. If this should happen, then you really doesn’t know who his friends are.

Roger Bird

It makes absolutely not sense to me to jump from the Celani wire (which seems to be a failure) to a 1 MW plant that costs $1.5 million (which easily calculates out to be $1.50 per watt, which does not seem to be very cheap to me). It makes perfect sense to me to jump to the E-Cat itself. It costs hundreds of times less. It will prove the concept and design just as well. Any good philanthropist and venture capitalists knows that you shouldn’t give too much money to people too suddenly. You people at MFMP need to do a proof of concept on yourselves first. I won’t be contributing ANY money to buying a complete 1 MW plant at this time.

Alp

I agree Roger, but it seems Rossi won’t sell them an ecat or a single module from a megawatt plant! Strange.

Omega Z

Not Strange

It’s technical. The 1Mw container is certified for commercial use. Which is what MFMP is proposing in a sense. Set it up. Test it. And put it to commercial use. MFMP has in a sense proposed what Rossi would require. Rossi would be in the Loop on when & where it would be put into operation & the training of persons operating it. Actual sale would include the DETAILS for sale to be concluded.

Ecco the Dolphin

I think it would be wiser for the MFMP to wait for Defkalion GT to announce their plans during ICCF18 and NIWeek2013, as it seems they will be more open than Rossi regarding the scientific acceptance process of their technology, or in other words, that they will likely offer more chances that a university test on a single, stripped down module could be arranged.

To be honest, crowdfunding a 1 MW E-Cat plant just to perform third paty tests on the technology sounds foolish to me, and a waste of money and effort. Rossi clearly has no plans at this stage to allow such a thing.

AlainCo

I don’t see any fault of capitalism, on the opposite.
the centralized church of science have tried to ban cold fusion from journal, from research, block funding… the centralized planet decision to save the world have wasted trillion for nothing.

capitalist Toyota and Mitsubishi made research until now.
Capitalist Amocco discover tritium.
capitalist Shell paid state CNAM to make research taht it was not paid for.
Capitalist Rossi try to get rich, and recognized, and hero, and build e-cat
capitalist Xantoulis and other businessmen try get rich and invent Hyperion
capitalist Nicolas Chauvin try to create a LENR-car and is funded by capitalist venture capitalist.

Capitalist hope of getting rewarded, and owning your efforts results, make many researchers hope to become rich and continue researching. centralized decision of funding science prevented them to be funded. Fear of change prevent .

I was not a liberal (in france liberal mean free market, every body hate them like in US), but I get convinced by current tragedy…

Capitalism, (and patents) is an engine that make people try things that other find too risky (marx recognise it)… the get a small (what will LENR bring is quadrillon) part of the wealth that they create, but without them there will be no money to share… afterward, freedom to cut the head of your boss and stop working, force him to pay honestly… this happen so… I live better than grand-dad. revolution show it is bloody, but it works.
Otherwise the flu and hunger kill more people than the riots. That is what happen in traditional society where accumulation of technology is not possible.

What is evil in current capitalism is riskless capitalism, like real-estate, bonds, crony finance…
real capitalism like I see with chinese business in France, or with venture capitalism, is risky but make things get forward.

another evil is the accumulation. you cannot steal wealth visibly, because people won’t take the risk if they know they will be stolen soon… but in fact it happen naturally in economy with growth and freedom to make business for all, and not only for the rich…

in emerging economies, rich get slightly richer if they don’t work, but workers if they can run a business have a chance to get extremely rich… it change the class structure of the socierty.

of course with crony capitalism, all that is impossible and social class are frozen and amplified… it cannot las long, and either the boss are beheaded or they share the cash… that is natural regulation, and that happen in history.

Trying to block or plan things, is best way get coherently and perfectly top a catastrophe.

what we should avoid however, like say Nassim nicholas taleb, is but units that are too big to fail…

we let many research centers compete selfishly for results, kill the fraudsters and the unproductive, and allow newcomers .

Omega Z

AlainCo

Agreed. People twist/associate Capitalism with the wealthy.
They are 2 totally different things.

Venezuela’s Hugo Chávez was taking his country down the path to socialism while siphoning off billions for himself & his cronies. Note their Oil Production has declined 30% under his policies. Not because of a lack of Oil Reserves, but due to a lack of Capitol being reinvested to maintain production.

Capitalism is Primarily about Capitol formation for tasks such as business ventures & such.

John Bull

Admin,

What about a calendar with upcoming (E-cat) events? I think your audience and your site will benefit.

Cheers,

JB

http://www.e-catworld.com admin

It’s a good idea, John. There are no dates published for specific E-Cat events that I am aware of, but there are events connected with LENR coming up:

Dear Ron:
Sometime I have to spam a comment of a friend when the comment contains issues that could force me to an aggressive answer, and I want not to do this with friends. I like boxing with enemies, not with friends..so sometimes a friend finds his comment spammed. Sometimes, also a normal comment gets spammed for a mistake of the robot, and this is probably your case.
Now the answer: the US Partner owns also the R&D.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
_____________________________________________________________________

The partner OWNS the R&D of Leonardo? I was under the impression they where PARTNERS and A.R. said more than once that Leaonardo is still a separate company. But with his partner owning R&D, the production AND propably having specific info about the secret reactor core, it looks pretty much the other way.

KD

I think, Rossi mind that his US Partner have its own R&D department and maybe bigger than Leonardo has.

eboireau

Investing so many money looks risky.
The way thermal released energy was estimated, notably the irradiated IR energy, looks not academic.
how radiated energy can be calculated by using only the camera-measured temperature (of radiated light/reactor surface): is there no need of knowing the IR radiation flux? Imagine a reactor emitting 300W at 400°C and another one (same surface) emitting 100W or another emitting 1200W also at 400°C. Will the IR camera detect in each case 400°C, and will you calculate the same released energy?

Before going ahead that these experiment prove that the ecat effectively produce exces heat, many other things should be validated by physicist form the incomplete data that are provide. For exemple the report do not talk at all of initial and consummed hydrogene (cited 4 times, only in page 1, not took in coinsideration for input energy), nor about the duration of operating and electric input before the control by testers, the camera settings,…

A sanity check of the thermal camera measurement method was performed via a dummy run of a reactor without fuel.

Bob Greenyer

It only becomes an option should the money be raised.

Then, if Rossi does not deliver, it is not at risk. The device is supposedly guaranteed to have a COP of 6, if it fails, then the law would intervene.

georgehants

Trailblazing Israeli electric car company to fold
Israel’s trailblazing electric car company Better Place says it has reached the end of the road.
The company announced Sunday that it was filing for liquidation, marking a stunning end to an ambitious plan aimed at revolutionizing the auto industry by reducing the world’s dependency on oil.
Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2013-05-trailblazing-israeli-electric-car-company.html#jCp

GreenWin

George, this company brought about its own demise due IMO to a very unrealistic business plan. They wanted people to drive cars into ABP garages and wait while their EV batteries were swapped. Simply impractical. And since there is rarely a standard (battery design) in a new technology – it was not a well thought out idea.

Charles

Once again:

The customer for the first 1MW E-Cat, alleged to be SPAWAR-USN, could release a report through a highly trusted 3d party describing the customer’s experience with the E-Cat. Thus, the customer could remain hidden, and a huge statement made regarding the validity of the E-Cat.

I would trust NASA, U-MOO, Not MIT, ???

Bob Greenyer

At this stage, we are told that 1MW units are available to purchase and once acquired can be tested and deployed. We would work in a hands off way only but if the order was fulfilled, testing could morph to meet the requests of critics and all doubt should be resolved one way or another.

Roger Bird

If 1 MW plants are available for sale, I am sure that Rossi could sell “us” a spare E-Cat.

Bob Finley

buy an E-Cat and send it to the HOT fusion guys at MIT for testing. That should shut up all the skeptics.

freethinker

It depends how it will be handled by those guys. That department have a bad track record evaluating this phenomenon. Check with writings of Eugene Mallove. They would probably throw a party before they even started testing, celebrating the death of ecat. I guess the party would not be lavish, as they are now out of funds.

GreenWin

MIT hotfusion project was terminated, coincidentally the same day the E-Cat validation was published.

psi

yes, a very interesting coinkiydink.

freethinker

I for one believe the integrity of the team behind the 3rd party report. Hence I also take their reported result at face value.

When searching for possible weakness in their written words, there are some, but to me not so grave as to have me discard the result. Like I said, I have confidence in their integrity. They are no dupes (no matter what krivitesque critics may imply).

So: With that said, I still welcome the MFMP initiative, having a device under the auspice of a licensee investigated as a black box test. It will not give ME any more critical info, as I have concluded it is real, but it will surely help cement the fact, and help push this further into the consciousness of decision makers, MSM and the whole population on our planet.

So go for it, any way you can.

Charles

If Rossi is correct, Krivit will be the most discredited person in the whole world, solar system, galaxy, universe, adjacent universes.

Will he just go away or will he apologize and mumble his way out of his krivitesque status?

Roger Bird

Apologies are wonderful, but Krivit has a character problem that is so deep that I would require repentance, and since repentance is a private matter unknowable by others, I would probably never be able to trust him again in this lifetime.

Bob Greenyer

For those that have care to research LENR-CANR.org, for those that care to read the mitsubishi / toyota LENR driven transmutation studies or understand the rock crushing studies, it is easier to take on board the findings of a scientific study.

For the rest of humanity and political and commercial leaders – this research and effort to understand is way outside their comfort zone.

Having a unit that is tangible that they can visit, which is small or large and either shows potential or utility, that will make it easy for them to grasp what the opportunity is.

We are not out to promote any technology in particular, but to establish the truth, to educate, discover and disseminate as much as is possible in order to assist the adoption of this technology and its potential.

Omega Z

Bob

One of the Problems is that Much of Big Business depend on the so-called experts for their Info. As you say, It’s outside their realm of expertise.

So If I’m a Billion dollar Corporation looking into this & asked MIT about this technology, Am I going to look further?

As Linda mentions below I have put up a comment outlining the faults of capitalism concerning Cold Fusion, it has gone to moderation and taking a very long time to clear.
Could Admin give a guideline please., are attacks on capitalism discouraged on these pages.

Linda

George, I believe that the admin understands that since LENR is a disruptive technology that cannot help but alter current society to the core, it is impossible to discuss LENR without at some time addressing Capitalism.

In particular, the current topic touches on a controversial, some might even say, “social” method of fund raising, which is why capitalism keeps coming up in this thread today.

Wonderful debate on the failures of capitalism below, unfortunately I have been led to believe such areas are, off topic.
Will just mention that with full understanding of Rossi’s position in a capitalist World, it has now been over two years since he has developed a high output Cold Fusion device.
If it where not for the insane demands of capitalism that “secret” would have been released immediately and god knows where the Technology would be now.
He keeps the Secret because of the temptations of capitalistic money and power, this is not a system that is ever going to improve the thinking. morality or justice of our society’s.

buffalo

he has every right to become rich.if you take away his right to become rich you take away the rights of all inventors to become rich.if you take away all inventors rights to become rich you squash incentive for inventing.

georgehants

buffalo, did I say in this capitalist World he did not have the right to become rich. I said —
Without capitalism the secret would have been freely known at least two years ago for all scientists to have contributed to it’s advance, there would be no need for MFMP to be trying to find that secret with donations etc.
I disagree with your belief that people would not in an equal World without excessive reward, feel good about working for the benefit of all.

Bob Greenyer

@Georgehants

There are many working configurations of LENR and the subset, the New Fire, this revised proposal for comment does not in any way affect our passion for exploration of open technologies using live open science approach.

We do not want in any way to be prevented from carrying out our own research by getting too close to existing claims of other high yield technology.

Our role has always been to establish the truth, educate and promote within our limited means. We wish that this technology had been investigated more widely over the past near quarter of a century.

georgehants

Bob, thank you I agree entirely, until improved we have to work with the way things are.
You said —-
“We wish that this technology had been investigated more widely over the past near quarter of a century.”
—-
Again I agree and feel that more effort should be made by the Cold Fusion websites to try and put right the faults in society that have led to this 25 years of wasted argument and dispute that has possibly cost millions of lives and much suffering.
What has happened can never be changed but we all have the opportunity to help ensure that in the future these crimes are reduced.

Roger Bird

“feel good about working for the benefit of all”. Don’t we have that in every Communist country ***still left*** in the world. Oh, I forgot, it might be the government’s creed (while their officials enrich themselves), but it is not the people’s creed. The people’s creed is still “I, me, my, mine, and myself, and perhaps my family”. And you can’t impose selflessness on people. They have to want it and discover how rewarding it is for themselves. Government rules won’t work, especially when the government officials are just as selfish as the people.

Omega Z

Yeah, What you said. +1

JamesThomas

Buffalo, your remarks are a very ugly and sad – but true – testimony regarding the disease of excessive desire for wealth and possessions.
I mean what incentive is there in simply helping make the planet a healthier place for all – including our own children and grandchildren…?
They are not the motivation or concern. What is, is hording more money than I can spend in a thousand lifetimes.

I’m not sure humanity deserves or would have the wisdom to use and truly benefit from any major breakthrough in cheap and clean energy technology…unless that technology also comes with a drastic change of heart and vision.

Linda

Buffalo, it is simply not true at all that people must be able to get rich or else they would not research and invent. In fact, the only reason most people work at all, or even desire to be rich is to escape the penalty of “failure” in the capitalist system, which is starvation and death.

The truth is, most people feel trapped in their jobs and would rather stay home and play with their children or tend their gardens, or yes, invent things in their garage.

We rationalize so very much that is wrong and ugly and oppressive in Capitalism, because we don’t know any other way, and we are afraid. But we are coming to an end soon.

The reality is, we do not have enough jobs, and millions are idle, near starvation. Yet the world is awash with money, and the stores are packed with goods. Only a few can buy, but all are incited to want. The rich are partying like it’s 1929. The crash is almost upon us.

We want and need LENR. But the greedy rich have shown a persistent inclination to steal everything that can be stolen. Many of us are rightly fearful that the rich will steal Rossi’s invention, either by buying it outright, or trying to keep it for themselves while selling us electricity at full monopoly rates which we know costs them nothing.

A lot is riding on this. This is an apocalyptic battleground if ever there was one.

Omega Z

George

The Fact is Capitalism Works to everyone’s benefit.

What you would propose is like throwing the Baby out with the bath water.
What’s needed is an effective way to Skim the Scum off the top.
To Filter out the Few who manipulate it & abuse the system.

Water is Good. Scum is Bad.
Note these Entities will be around regardless of what system you use.

Roger Bird

Skip A Generation Inheritance Tax: If you inherit money, you cannot pass that money on to your children. Only the wealth that you have build up by yourself can you pass on to your children. (Domiciles and Farms don’t count). If I inherit $1,000,000, and if I build that up with investments and working late at the office to $3,000,000 total, then my children can inherit $2,000,000 and the $1,000,000 goes to the government. This greatly incentivizes hard work and serves the social good of reducing (not eliminating) accumulated wealth at the top.

Omega Z

Yes, this is a topic I’ve thought about a lot, but say little about. Sports & Politics are safer subjects. LOL

10 people in a room & 10 hardcore different opinions.
A few individuals like myself can be immune to the dispersal, But most Families are not. Equal is not Equal & fascinating that even a miniscule amounts can tear families apart. I’ve yet to see a Family as a whole that is immune.

I’ve personally been excluded from 4 different (Parents/Grandparents)inheritances over the years by my Own request before the fateful day & Guess what. A few still have a problem.

I’ve considered (If it’s substantial)the possibility of a small sum dispersal & the rest goes into a Family Pension/Trust passed generation-ally dispersed. Each generation adding to it. Flaws I know. Just a thought.