Hee hee, I see people go from "I'm done" to "Must buy," which is evidence of the high production values in the vids. I do want to know, and I will probably be lynched here, there is going to be a (decent) AI player for those of us afraid of human interaction?

It is unfortunate that Matrix and Lock 'n Load are bungling the PR of this project as badly as they are. Lock 'n Load locked out their forum once again to non-members and isn't allowing any new subscribers (another wonderful PR move!), so I cannot trace when this game was first announced and provide more quotes. However looking back at this particular thread, I found several worth mentioning.

1.) Back on 2/2/2006, markhwalker posted that "with luck [Heroes of Stalingrad] will be out this year, but I'm not promising a release date." (Note, that was two and a half years ago.)

2.) Back on 5/4/2006, markhwalker said "I doubt it will be out this summer." (Not that "it won't be", but "I doubt it will be".)

3.) Back on 7/6/2007, Marc von Martial said "In fact Mark, Tom and me did some work on HOS here at the Origins Convention and Mark is demoing the game to the press and attendends." And later that day, Marc von Martial responded to Punisher's inquiry about what date they would be giving for a release of the demo/game by saying "Can't give one, that would be up to the Mark with a "K". I would say he can tell more after Origins. One thing is for sure, it will take some more time since Mark came up with a pretty nice idea that will take more time to implement though. He also plans for more scenarios then formerly planned, which is a good thing."

4.) Back on 11/28/2007, Marc replied to an inquiry if the game would be released by Christmas by saying "No it is not going to be Christmas".

Seven months ago, Marc von Martial, took offense to this game being called "vaporware". I personally do not believe this game is vaporware; however I do think it is fair in retrospect to say that Matrix and Lock 'n Load have been somewhat disingenuous in their responses by, at times, explicitly vastly underestimating the release date of the game and by, at times, implicitly not saying the release is as far off as they must have recognized at the time. It is understandable for setbacks to occur, however Mark set expectations back in February of 2006 that the game might be released in 2006. I do not recall ever seeing a significant post suggesting the project had a major setback that would forestall it for another year or two. As such, over the last two years, expectations have been set and have continued to be set that the game could be released within a few months time.

The game looks fantastic and the people venting frustation, including myself, will likely purchase it nonetheless. However it creates a fair amount of unnecessary ill will to intentionally or unintentionally string your fanbase along rather than provide us with a reasonable expectation of when the game is likely to be released and then keep us informed of updates and/or setbacks. We appreciate the efforts you are making on this game - the concepts for the game and what we have seen of it look fantastic. We just request a realistic expectation of when this will be released and better feedback on the progress and setbacks along the way.

Thank you and best regards, Bill

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc von Martial

Okay, sorry if anybody got offended by the "Jesus" quote. It is not a swear word / phrase in my book but I understand that different folks have different opinions and fellings on that. So sorry again it was not intentional.

quote:

I think his remark may show what kind of responses we will get if and when this game would be released if we find bugs or problems that need to be resolved!

I'm sorry but I think you are pushing this a bit to the extreme. Again I'm sorry if I offended anybody. You all know, especially if you are long time forum members and customers that Matrix Games, and that includes everybody of this company, is a very helpfull and responsive company. I think our record for supporting games and especially supporting games over a long time is unmatched in this industry. So please don't get upset and twist our record by one single remark that upset you.

We talk open here, so please also grant us developers the right to talk open, we swallow down a lot of flak and uncalled responses also from the customer and client side, but we do not flip out about them in 99.99% of the cases.

However, in this particular case, Mark (the Walker one) and I have repeatably stated that we are working hard on the game and updates will come. People tend to quickly come up with the vaporware comment when they do not see new screenshots or updates every month. And I can tell you, there is nothing more insulting to a developer then this stupid "vaporware" comments when all he is doing is working hard on it.

Updates will come when we feel we have something new and nice to show apart from the already released screenshots. If you feel that another pack of screenshots will put back your faith that this game is alive and kicking then I can certainly check if Mark wants to put out a new batch right now.

On a sidenote, you can always hop over to Mark Walkers website ( www.locknloadgame.com ) and drop a note in his forums too. It is recommended to stop by anyway as he has a lot of very interesting games up there.

Himmelstoss i can see you joined back in 2003. You should know by now that Matrixgames is notorius for taking on way to many projects etc.

But then again its not like we have that many others to turn to for wargames. I agree its annoying as hell, i would like that matrix didnt announce games untill they knew they could finish em. But ofc many of these games are 1 man projects done in spare time i reckon. So all we can really do is watch and hope.

I think we all wish that Matrix could communicate a bit more clear and would learn to be more realistic about realease dates and project progress. Basicly just take anything Matrix says and add 1-3 years to that

Himmelstoss i can see you joined back in 2003. You should know by now that Matrixgames is notorius for taking on way to many projects etc... ....... Basicly just take anything Matrix says and add 1-3 years to that

Yeah Awac835 you are right i know. its just that i wish that more folks would speak up about stuff like that, as for sure not saying anything is not doing anything either. at least this way they might get enough annoyed so they don't have it all that easy. i mean i remember the USA being a country that was actually giving a big damn about customer service, and i mean that in all other areas of biz as well (guess that was in the late 1970's and up to the mid 1980's...i know i am old). anyhow i know i am writing to blind eyes here, but i will never let that go through without plenty of comments where ever i can...just like my motto reads: "Tell it like you think it is!"

Two weeks later and still no further info. Lock 'N Load webpage for HOS still says "Heroes of Stalingrad for Windows PC will soon be available for pre-order. Keep checking back for the demo. Out soon!" Their webpage has been saying that for how many months now, or should I say years now? Isn't it deceptive to say "will soon be available for pre-order", "keep checking back for the demo" and "out soon" if NOT ONE OF THOSE THINGS IS TRUE?

Matrix is similarly culpable for reasons stated in my previous post. The first post in this thread on Matrix' site is dated 1/26/2006. Expectations were set back then that the game had a chance of being released by the end of 2006. At any given point in time since that original post, neither LNL nor Matrix has provided any feedback to suggest the game was more than just a couple of months away from being released. Matrix released some screen shots and videos early this summer, once again implying that the game's release might not be far off. However, it is now fall 2008 and neither Matrix nor LNL has provided us with any idea of when this game will be released; it could still be many years away.

It is beginning to look like this game might be vaporware after all or so low on the two companies' priorities that it just is not worth following. LNL doesn't bother to fix the blatant inaccuracies that have been on their website for months (about a demo and "out soon!") while Matrix has a history of "not" saying the game's release is as far off as they must obviously have known. This has been going on for a couple of years now, not just a few months. The lack of concern about their fanbase also gives strong credence to this game having been given a very low priority.

This will be my last post on this because I am tired of being strung along by both companies. The game looked great and I was very excited about it, but obviously neither LNL and Matrix care about or respect their fans enough to provide them with decent information about this game's future. Following this game has been frustrating and obviously quite pointless. This game might be released tomorrow or it could be released in 2010. At this point no one has even the faintest clue; and personally I no longer care. I really don't know what LNL and Matrix were thinking when they announced the production of this game back in 2005, suggested it could be released in 2006, and then strung their fanbase along for over two and a half years after that with hints that it could be released shortly. I definitely will remember this experience when I hear of any other games "in development" by either company.

Over and out, Bill

PS: That sound you hear is me deleting all of my URL links I have regarding HOS.

ORIGINAL: Vilhjalmr The first post in this thread on Matrix' site is dated 1/26/2006. I definitely will remember this experience when I hear of any other games "in development" by either company.

I'd hate to be the one to break this to you, but 3 years of development is actually pretty normal, and I don't mean for Matrix, but in pc wargame production in general and for all publishers.

I'm sorry that the high expectations you were having made you overly optimistic with regard to the release date, but seriously : have you ever seen a pc wargame go from "we've started working on it" to "for sale" in under 18 months ? I haven't.

Most publishers are aware it's pretty hurting to be waiting for a game month after month and they "fix" that by simply not announcing a game until it's released. Example : I'm pretty sure HPS is going to release a new game this coming Friday - and there's not a peep about it yet at their website. I don't like that approach either as fans never know what's coming, but it sure fixes the problem publishers have with fans not realizing how much time it takes to get something out the door.

As mentioned above, I may have been the one who wound Marcs spring calling this thing vaporware. Maybe vaporware was harsh but why does Matrix insist on being so quiet about this thing? I understand those experts above who speak about development times and such but most companies don't even mention what they are working on until they prepared to talk about it and handle the fans who will without doubt start asking quesitons.

My bottom line is that I will order the day its released because I am a slave to the great products but that doesn't make it any easier to gut the less-than-desirable treatment of loyal fans by the developer.

ORIGINAL: Artillerysarge .. but most companies don't even mention what they are working on until they prepared to talk about it and handle the fans who will without doubt start asking quesitons.

Basically a publisher has two options :

1) Announce early Advantage : get some user input, make the design better than it would have been without that input, let gamers know what they're working on, build some steam before the release Disadvantage : "Are we there yet, mum"

2) Announce when ready Advantage : no-one complaining about long development times Disadvantage : no user input, no word-of-mouth before the game is out

Now, from a publisher's pov option 2 is the easy road to follow, but if they go option 1 the end result is a better game, so from a gamer's pov it's better that they take option 1 and are able and willing to take some flak on the timing issue.

As a small example of why I prefer the "announce early" option : a couple of hours ago a new beta was released to the Battles from the Bulge testing team which *specifically* dealt with a remark made by a gamer in the BFTB forum. The Powers That Be considered it a good point, hence incorporated it in the design. This is maybe not communicated often enough - probably because upon later consideration it might be removed again, so developers hate it when they have to commit to features too early, but be assured that announce early == get user-input before release == better game.

ORIGINAL: sterckxe but be assured that announce early == get user-input before release == better game.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

My point exactly. Announce early is a great option... IF YOU TALK TO YOUR FANBASE.

+1. Compare the LnL approach to that of the Battles of the Bulge developers. They participate in the forum, solicit input, answer questions, and there is no rancor about release delays. LnL Games appears to ignore their fanbase, for some bizarre reason....

I haven't been following this one but, one would think any game that's listed under the coming soon forum, is somewhere in late stages of beta of testing. Let's hope this one makes it before the end of the year.

ORIGINAL: sterckxe but be assured that announce early == get user-input before release == better game.

My point exactly. Announce early is a great option... IF YOU TALK TO YOUR FANBASE.

+1. Compare the LnL approach to that of the Battles of the Bulge developers. They participate in the forum, solicit input, answer questions, and there is no rancor about release delays. LnL Games appears to ignore their fanbase, for some bizarre reason....

Well, from a publisher's pov : Matrix is giving the devs the tools and means to talk to their fanbase, but can hardly be blamed if said devs aren't communicating all that well. Scratch that - they are communicating with their fanbase, but not in this forum, but only on their own

If they are selling their games here, then they should be communicating here as well. Now, you can't even communicate with them at their own web site because you can't read or sign-up to their own forums, a little tuft on new customers!

ORIGINAL: sterckxe but be assured that announce early == get user-input before release == better game.

My point exactly. Announce early is a great option... IF YOU TALK TO YOUR FANBASE.

+1. Compare the LnL approach to that of the Battles of the Bulge developers. They participate in the forum, solicit input, answer questions, and there is no rancor about release delays. LnL Games appears to ignore their fanbase, for some bizarre reason....

Well, from a publisher's pov : Matrix is giving the devs the tools and means to talk to their fanbase, but can hardly be blamed if said devs aren't communicating all that well. Scratch that - they are communicating with their fanbase, but not in this forum, but only on their own

You need a userid & password to even be able to read it - they got hacked recently and are plugging the security holes.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

sterckxe,

You're too funny!

LNL has three pages of posts in a little over 2 years. Yeah they are REeeeeally chatting it up with thier fans. BTW I am TWTHOMAS on that forum. Lost my password when I moved and changed ISP's so had to change my name to Artillerysarge on here.

I hope thay really don't start yammering away. They might have to use like a whole megabyte of server space for thier BBS.

The point is, surely, that that forum hasn't accepted any new members for months (I think I first tried in March). The 'plugging' security holes thing just isn't credible; if they were making a serious attempt to do that it would been done ages ago. If nothing else, as has already been said, its lousy PR and lousy for sales if the game ever does get finished. You can't establish a 'community' if nobody is allowed to join it!

ORIGINAL: Hertston The point is, surely, that that forum hasn't accepted any new members for months (I think I first tried in March). The 'plugging' security holes thing just isn't credible; if they were making a serious attempt to do that it would been done ages ago. If nothing else, as has already been said, its lousy PR and lousy for sales if the game ever does get finished. You can't establish a 'community' if nobody is allowed to join it!

I don't disagree - it's just that blaming Matrix for this lack of communication is silly. What can they do ? Force Mark Walker at gunpoint to give updates in here ? He's been given the means to talk to his fanbase (this forum), he's the one who decides to make use of this or not.

Do you complain at the website of publisher of a book when an author is late in handing over the manuscript ?

I think it's certainly fair to say that we underestimated the development time for this release. That happens, even despite experience, you can still be surprised. However, the title is certainly not vaporware, it's just taking longer than expected. I realize that looking from the outside in, there's no way to know that, but be assured that this is a real title that has had a lot of development and design time already invested in it and will really be released.

Mark Walker is also someone who always has several projects going at once, so I'm not surprised that he can't spend too much time updating everyone on progress, but I agree that in an ideal world we should be keeping you all more up to date. I'll see if we can get an update from the team here in the near future to let folks know how things are going.

Belgium 5 Posts Posted - September 29 2008 : 10:29:20 As soon as possible? Meaning? I do not want to sound as an impatient kid, but I've been following the development of this game for quit a while and therefore I am quite curious to get any news of this game. Therefore, is it possible to elaborate on 'as soon as possible'? Thanks bonkie Private

Meaning just that. It is EXTREMELY difficult to estimate these things. I'll post a new screen or two before the end of next week. A Craving for Blood... the best military adventure you haven't read. http://www.booklocker.com/books/2650.htmlbonkie Private