Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren

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Star

This came up on another thread, but in the interests of keeping religion in the Religion section, I will continue here. This is for you, @TempestOfTempo.

The subject, broadly, was people who have protected Jews in times of trouble, and it brought to mind something I'd come across and haven't really gotten into but still think is kind of neat.

In Matthew 25, at the so-called "Sheep and Goats" judgment, Jesus is depicted on his throne, having come to earth in his glory. The nations of the world are gathered before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats.

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.​

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:​

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:​

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.​

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?​

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?​

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?​

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.​

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:​

This is an interesting scene because, as redeemed Christians, there will never come a day when we stand with the nations and are divided into saved and unsaved. We will have our works judged, but our eternal security is never in doubt. So what's going on?

The passage says this judgment will take place "when the Son of man shall come in his glory", so this is obviously at "the end" that Jesus spoke of. The nations in the passage mean all the living people on the earth, so this has to be a judgment of living people after the second advent of Jesus Christ. It's not in Heaven, because there are unsaved people there.

Christians aren't judged for their righteousness -- Jesus Christ is our righteousness -- so the big question is, how are the people in this passage made righteous? What makes a sheep different from a goat? How are they saved?

Yes, I know we are saved through faith in Jesus Christ, but when he is sitting on the throne of his glory, surrounded by angels, having just destroyed evil, believing in Jesus Christ the King will be easy. Anyway, the Lord himself tells these people how they are saved, because it appears that even they are surprised.

I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:​

Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me​

​

(the sheep are all like, "Huh? We did?")​

​

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.​

​

Brethren when used by a Jew means "fellow Jews", and does not necessarily mean that the brethren are believers, so when Jesus Christ says "my brethren", he means Jews.

Me belief is that this judgment is at the end of the seven year period the Bible calls "the time of Jacob's trouble", a season of unparalleled persecution against Jews. The passage really makes it look like people who help Jews will be counted as righteous and be allowed to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I imagine there will be lots of people who will help Jews during the Tribulation because it's the right thing to do, just as Jews have been helped thoughout the ages when under attack.

Star

This is an interesting scene because, as redeemed Christians, there will never come a day when we stand with the nations and are divided into saved and unsaved. We will have our works judged, but our eternal security is never in doubt. So what's going on?

Well in the preceding verses Jesus just divided Christians into two camps... the wise and the foolish virgins !

Now the secular righteous seems to be exonerated by Jesus himself because they live like He taught us to live. And there is no need to show any special favour to Jews... when a human being is in need you help !

Star

1) Christians aren't judged for their righteousness -- Jesus Christ is our righteousness -- so the big question is, how are the people in this passage made righteous? What makes a sheep different from a goat? How are they saved?

The word gnosis means knowledge. Gnosis, in the spiritual/metaphysical sense occurs when a person's heart reflects the heart of something/someone else..ie we become that thing..we attain 'gnosis/knowledge' of that thing.
The Gnosis of God being the ultimate/highest aim.
So you get this heirarchy, a spiritual ORDER where there's a head ie a prophet/person of God who serves as the perfect role model. That person, has the gnosis of God..and by following his example..you can attain his qualities and hence you also attain gnosis of God albeit indirectly. These are ancient themes i was already familiar with thanks to sufi islam. However the NT confirmed to me that this is precisely what christianity was..a spiritual ORDER eg 'after the order of Melchizedek'.
Jesus made statements like "i am in the Father and the Father is in me" "i am in you and you are in me"
"i am the true vine and you are the branches"
This was exactly what I already understood about the way it works ie 'fana fi Allah, fana fi Rasul, fana fi Sheikh' from sufi islam.
It is all held together by love. That is why love is the ultimate ideal, because it unites all things.
So moving on from that..i really don't think a christian is someone who just says some choice words with a tongue and holds some degree of belief for a moment. look at the parable of the sower...if you look at a seed as belief, it cant just be planted on the surface level, it has to be on a much deeper level...yet the quality of the soil/ground must be right for that seed. in this case the soil of your heart has to reflect Jesus.
Since 'he died, we all died' type of statements exist in the NT, it means there's a metaphysical process that follows from thos gnosis that's attained by the power of love and attachment to Jesus...ie his inner condition becomes yours. You get to attain everything...just by connecting with Jesus..the only 'price' was love...which is no price at all since love is free. It is Jesus who 'paid the price' to attain everything..and all you have to do is tap into that source ie his inner being...by the power of love.

Now, a christian doesnt need to think of things in the way ive described..they dont need to know what gnosis is or how to apply it...as long as they hold onto Jesus.

Now it is not for me to judge who is 'connected' with Jesus..but you can be sure that 'many' are not and Jesus will reject theme.

2)40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.

it depends on the context, in Deuteronomy, 'ummi' ie someone belonging to the nation which has been translated as brethren, which funny enough some idiotic muslims interpreted as 'it means ishmaelites'...but generally there are many diff contexts for te term brethren/brothers...

To me, it means, just being charitable to the needy.

3) you've contradicted yourself, since..here there is a condition eg if you were not nice to these 'brothers and sisters' then it's hell...
so much for "Jesus is our righteousness" "jesus paid the price"

4) of course, your magical hard on for israel is just a deeper hatred for the mooselimbs.
you're so transparent.

5) another point, the statements Jesus made, like "i am in you and you are in me" was he talking to you or his disciples?
you move the goalposts however it suits you.

For example, here's a quote26 “If any man come to Me and hate not his father and mother, and wife and children, and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple

if i used this to challenge you, saying you are not 'a true christian unless you are doing THIS' you would say "no Jesus was only talking to those who wish to be disciples"
So do we then overlook the fact Jesus was specifically addressing his disciples when he made statements about how he is in them?
that those statements never applied to you at all...that you didnt 'die with him' nor are you 'saved by grace', but that this only applies to those to whom it was given.

Well in the preceding verses Jesus just divided Christians into two camps... the wise and the foolish virgins !

Now the secular righteous seems to be exonerated by Jesus himself because they live like He taught us to live. And there is no need to show any special favour to Jews... when a human being is in need you help !

Veteran

Me belief is that this judgment is at the end of the seven year period the Bible calls "the time of Jacob's trouble", a season of unparalleled persecution against Jews. The passage really makes it look like people who help Jews will be counted as righteous and be allowed to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I imagine there will be lots of people who will help Jews during the Tribulation because it's the right thing to do, just as Jews have been helped thoughout the ages when under attack.

- Your belief is not biblical at all. There will be trial and tribulation but it won't be for literal Israel only. Literal Israel doesn't mean much in the Bible, its spiritual Israel that is important. Those that have the faith of Jesus and keep His commandments. The trials and tribulations are designed to purge and cleanse God’s faithful people around the world (1 Thessalonians 3:3). "And one of the elders answered, saying to me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said to him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:13-14, emphasis mine).

- Biblically all will go through the tribulation. Just like the wheat and the tares Jesus describes in Matthew 13, everyone will stay together until the return of Christ. When Old Testament Israel was delivered from the bondage of Egypt, the plagues did not fall when the Israelites were already gone. They were present and witnessed the events, being subjected to the first three plagues themselves (Exodus 8-12).

God divinely protected the Israelites from the effects of the last seven plagues in Egypt, just as He will divinely protect His people from the effects of the last seven plagues at the end of time (Revelation 3:10-13). God's people are urged to hold on until He comes. They will not be taken to heaven before these events.

This is what Jesus told His disciples about the end- time tribulation, "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father" (Matthew 13:41-43). On the mount of Olives, Jesus made the following prophetic statement immediately after mentioning the tribulation: "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."Matthew 24:22. If the elect were not in the world during the great tribulation, they would not need the days to be shortened! The elect are God's people, Jew or Gentile. They are people who have faith in Jesus and keep His commandments unto death. They refuse to compromise at all when it comes to God.

- Biblically Jesus is not going to return twice to receive His people eternally. There is not going to be a seven-year period where the Jewish people will go through the tribulation and will come to accept Christ. If they haven't accepted Christ when He returns it will be too late.

- Biblically God is not going to give Jews or anyone else a second chance after He returns. The parables of Jesus do not give the impression that anyone will get a second chance during the tribulation. They make it plain that the Second Coming of Jesus is a divine climactic event—men and women will be either saved or lost. There will be no seven-year period to reconsider our lives. Now is the day of salvation (2 Corinthians 6:2).

In Matthew 13:30, both the wheat and the tares (the followers and rejecters of God) grow together until the harvest. The followers are saved and the rejecters are lost.

When Jesus returns He will have judged who is going to be saved and who isn't eternally.

When Jesus comes the second time, He carries "in his hand a sharp sickle" (Revelation 14:14). This is the reaping time after sixty centuries of the sowing of the seeds of sin. This is the harvest time, and "the harvest is the end of the world" (Matthew 13:39). "And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped" (Revelation 14:16). Truly did Jeremiah say, "The harvest is past ... and we are not saved" (Jeremiah 8:20). There can be no saving after the reaping of earth's harvest at the coming of Christ.

- The Bible does not make a distinction between the Church and Israel. Paul emphasized that both Jew and Gentile become children of God when he said, “There is neither Jew nor Greek...for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Galatians 3:28-29). I don't know why there is so much confusion about the Biblical idea of the Israel of God when the Bible is clear. Many are waiting for the fulfilment of God's promises to ancient Israel. They expect the restoration of Israel in the Middle East even though the Bible clearly states that literal Israel gave up its right to be God's missionary nation because they rejected Christ. They could and can be saved only as individuals, in exactly the same way as the Gentiles. As a nation, they had been rejected as the chosen people by Christ. Here is the way the Bible describes that rejection:

Matthew21:43"The kingdom of God shall be taken from you."

Matthew 21:19 "And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away." (The fig tree was a symbol of the Jewish nation.)

Matthew 23:38"Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

Galatians 3:28"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Romans 10:12"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."

Romans 9:6-8 "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children; but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are ... the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (The New Testament teaches the acceptance of spiritual Israel, and the rejection of physical Israel and the children of the flesh.)

Romans 2:28-29"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter."

Acts 13:46"It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles."

Are all these lies from the Bible about who or what constitutes Israel? Who should we trust, God through His Word or man-made doctrine that is pleasing to the carnal heart of man but not based on the truth of the Word of God.

Star

- Your belief is not biblical at all. There will be trial and tribulation but it won't be for literal Israel only. Literal Israel doesn't mean much in the Bible, its spiritual Israel that is important. Those that have the faith of Jesus and keep His commandments. The trials and tribulations are designed to purge and cleanse God’s faithful people around the world (1 Thessalonians 3:3)."And one of the elders answered, saying to me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said to him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:13-14, emphasis mine).

- Biblically all will go through the tribulation. Just like the wheat and the tares Jesus describes in Matthew 13, everyone will stay together until the return of Christ. When Old Testament Israel was delivered from the bondage of Egypt, the plagues did not fall when the Israelites were already gone. They were present and witnessed the events, being subjected to the first three plagues themselves (Exodus 8-12).

God divinely protected the Israelites from the effects of the last seven plagues in Egypt, just as He will divinely protect His people from the effects of the last seven plagues at the end of time (Revelation 3:10-13). God's people are urged to hold on until He comes. They will not be taken to heaven before these events.

This is what Jesus told His disciples about the end- time tribulation, "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father" (Matthew 13:41-43). On the mount of Olives, Jesus made the following prophetic statement immediately after mentioning the tribulation: "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."Matthew 24:22. If the elect were not in the world during the great tribulation, they would not need the days to be shortened! The elect are God's people, Jew or Gentile. They are people who have faith in Jesus and keep His commandments unto death. They refuse to compromise at all when it comes to God.

- Biblically Jesus is not going to return twice to receive His people eternally. There is not going to be a seven-year period where the Jewish people will go through the tribulation and will come to accept Christ. If they haven't accepted Christ when He returns it will be too late.

- Biblically God is not going to give Jews or anyone else a second chance after He returns. The parables of Jesus do not give the impression that anyone will get a second chance during the tribulation. They make it plain that the Second Coming of Jesus is a divine climactic event—men and women will be either saved or lost. There will be no seven-year period to reconsider our lives. Now is the day of salvation (2 Corinthians 6:2).

In Matthew 13:30, both the wheat and the tares (the followers and rejecters of God) grow together until the harvest. The followers are saved and the rejecters are lost.

When Jesus returns He will have judged who is going to be saved and who isn't eternally.

When Jesus comes the second time, He carries "in his hand a sharp sickle" (Revelation 14:14). This is the reaping time after sixty centuries of the sowing of the seeds of sin. This is the harvest time, and "the harvest is the end of the world" (Matthew 13:39). "And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped" (Revelation 14:16). Truly did Jeremiah say, "The harvest is past ... and we are not saved" (Jeremiah 8:20). There can be no saving after the reaping of earth's harvest at the coming of Christ.

- The Bible does not make a distinction between the Church and Israel. Paul emphasized that both Jew and Gentile become children of God when he said, “There is neither Jew nor Greek...for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Galatians 3:28-29). I don't know why there is so much confusion about the Biblical idea of the Israel of God when the Bible is clear. Many are waiting for the fulfilment of God's promises to ancient Israel. They expect the restoration of Israel in the Middle East even though the Bible clearly states that literal Israel gave up its right to be God's missionary nation because they rejected Christ. They could and can be saved only as individuals, in exactly the same way as the Gentiles. As a nation, they had been rejected as the chosen people by Christ. Here is the way the Bible describes that rejection:

Matthew21:43"The kingdom of God shall be taken from you."

Matthew 21:19 "And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away." (The fig tree was a symbol of the Jewish nation.)

Matthew 23:38"Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

Galatians 3:28"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Romans 10:12"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."

Romans 9:6-8 "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children; but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are ... the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (The New Testament teaches the acceptance of spiritual Israel, and the rejection of physical Israel and the children of the flesh.)

Romans 2:28-29"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter."

Acts 13:46"It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles."

Are all these lies from the Bible about who or what constitutes Israel? Who should we trust, God through His Word or man-made doctrine that is pleasing to the carnal heart of man but not based on the truth of the Word of God.

Star

Well in the preceding verses Jesus just divided Christians into two camps... the wise and the foolish virgins !

Now the secular righteous seems to be exonerated by Jesus himself because they live like He taught us to live. And there is no need to show any special favour to Jews... when a human being is in need you help !

The Wise and Foolish can be for another thread, and I think the same arguments apply to both anyway. I'm a dispensationalist and you're not. I believe the way to salvation is through Jesus Christ, but people have not always been justified the same way.

What I mean is, how could those in the Old Testament believe in the name of Jesus Christ to be saved -- as we are today -- if his name wasn't yet known? Likewise, how would someone alive during the Tribulation be able to believe by faith -- as we do today -- when there are angels circling the earth, trumpeting the gospel?

The Bible describes a very wild end times period, which includes, but is not limited to, 144,000 specially protected Jewish apostles of Jesus Christ, who will be preaching everywhere on earth, two prophets who will be preaching from Jerusalem, who will be assassinated and then resurrected by God before the world, as well as the aforementioned angel, who will be preaching the gospel to every person on earth in a language they understand. Anyone with eyes or ears will have the evidence right in front of them.

So if you can't get saved by faith in the name of Jesus Christ, how on earth do you get saved?

As far as the OP goes, I am not hung up on the Jews being the brethren in the passage. It could mean anyone who is a believer. But the evidence of scriptural usage of the term by Jesus Christ makes me think it's specific.

Mystery babylon persecutes the people of God until it's time comes.
The destruction of modern israel/mystey babylon is foretold in so many ways throughout the OT and of course in Revelation.
Jesus said "jerusalem jerusalem you who kill the prophets" and in Rev 17/18 we're being told the death of the prophets/saints is on her hands. Throughout texts like Jeremiah 2/3 we see the themes of adultery/whoredom and we also see the theme of stones/trees that directly connects with prophecies related to the fall of ancient babylon ie a repeat themes for both ancient babylon and mystery babylon.
Habakkuk 2 provies notable clues, zechariah 5 hits the nail on the spot.

As for 'what we have to show for it'
When the babylonians enslaved the jews, the persians gave them their freedom, religious rights and their temple back.
When the greek's forced jews into hellenism and idolatory, when they smeared the temple with pig's blood and placed greek idols in the temple, slaughtered jews for circumcising their sons etc, the only safe haven for jews was persia and arabia.
When christianity came, the Jews did all of that to the christians..and then the tables turned and 1m jews were massacred in 70AD, the temple was destroyed etc.
When all of this happened, once again persia and arabia was the only safe haven for jews.
When christianity became the state religion of Rome, judaism was told to fuck off out of the holy land..and their only safe haven was once again Persia and arabia.
Eventually the jews received a sympathetic persian king, who wished to be the new Cyrus the Great..and so he fought a war against the byzantines with the aim to conquer jerusalem for the jews, for them to rebuild the temple and so forth.
Instead the jews went there and slaughtered 20000 christians, in turn the christians in persia revolved and the persians decided "ok these jews have gone too far, this isnt what we wanted...too much aggro, we're pulling the plug, you're on your own"
then the byzantines came and slaughtered jews yet again, i'm talking daily massacres
the only safe haven for jewsas arabia, but get this..the messiah they desired was an earthly ruler like a David or Moses who establishes the law of God. Since they cannot attain such a messiah, given Jesus is the messiah...God punished them as promised by raising up a man after their own image, as an Ismaelite. They revolted against him/muslims and in turn the events in jerusalem led tot hem becoming the most hated people on the planet.
Then Umar ibn Khattab came..and this man, one of the comanions of the prophet SAW, was sympathetic towards jews, was curious about the history of jerusalem and the jewish race..and in turn he gave the order under his rule, for jews to return to jerusalem.
For 1400 years of islam, muslims protected jews from european/christian persecution.

So if ever there is a real authentic 'jew' who is God-fearing and honest..they would not look at persia or arabia as the enemy, but as their friend. They would look at europe and christians as the great enemy. However the whore of babylon sides with the enemy. These themes are all over texts like Jeremiah where the jews choose wish they were like the kufaar/non-believers, they wish they were 'white', wish they were the envy of the world for earthly things and so forth..contrary to God.
In turn, they're a people who God has historically toyed with..they have their ups and downs and when they are punished it comes about in the worst of ways.

Us muslims, will never forget what the jews did, by betraying their past and their allies. We know these jews are western puppets sent to attack muslims. I suppose you christians realised there is a heavy burden when holding Jerusalem, you take it, God destroys you..like He did with other nations. Only the muslims have lasted the distance, 1200+ yrs in jerusalem.

No doubt, when Isa AS returns, then the true redemption of bani israel will happen. They will be the people of God..and Isa AS will unite the Abrahimic religions by showing them the truth.
In the meantime, you keep on supporting mystery babylon...

4. And We conveyed to the Children of Israel in the Scripture: You will commit evil on earth twice, and you will rise to a great height.
5. When the first of the two promises came true, We sent against you servants of Ours, possessing great might, and they ransacked your homes. It was a promise fulfilled.
6. Then We gave you back your turn against them, and supplied you with wealth and children, and made you more numerous.
7. If you work righteousness, you work righteousness for yourselves; and if you commit evil, you do so against yourselves. Then, when the second promise comes true, they will make your faces filled with sorrow, and enter the Temple as they entered it the first time, and utterly destroy all that falls into their power.
8. Perhaps your Lord will have mercy on you. But if you revert, We will revert. We have made Hell a prison for the disbelievers.
9. This Quran guides to what is most upright; and it gives good news to the believers who do good deeds, that they will have a great reward.

To us, it doesnt matter if God made promises to a nation...God's chosen nation can only consolidate true righteous power through right actions..not by Lord Rothschild and the balfour declaration on a false promise made to arabs, via an arab revolt against ottomons, via the support/rise of house Saud....this is the devils's side..and a nation created under these circumstances is going to destroy itself no matter how hard you stroke your dick for them.

“Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits by many waters. 2 With her the kings of the earth committed adultery, and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”
this is so true when it comes to israel/zionist jews
they control the media, music, tv, public opinion, the political sphere and stock markets, the banks etc..so of course all you weak cunts jack your dick to them...not us muslims though, we're cool, we're not dumb fucks like you.

Rejoice over her, you heavens!
Rejoice, you people of God!
Rejoice, apostles and prophets!
For God has judged her
with the judgment she imposed on you.”

By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.
24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

Matthew 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

in fact look closer at this statement by Jesus
'kill the prophets' like they did Jesus..how so? on the wooden cross...on the 'tree'
and 'stone' the rest

stones and trees
bricks and wood

these are powerful anti-judaic themes throughout the bible.

you guys think THIS here is how God would implement His greatest promise?

When Revelation 7 speaks of 144,000 witnesses from the children of Israel and then goes and names every literal tribe of Israel, do you just kind of cough and hope no one notices? I cannot believe the things I'm supposed to accept as "spiritual".

The trials and tribulations are designed to purge and cleanse God’s faithful people around the world

To what purpose? What about those who don't get to go through the Tribulation? Not as clean?

This is what Jesus told His disciples about the end- time tribulation, "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father" (Matthew 13:41-43).

"Gather out of His kingdom". So this horrible period of the murderous "purging" of God's faithful people -- this brutal tribulation of believers -- is actually taking place when God is on the throne of the earth?

I won't argue the whole Church and Israel thing with you. There are other threads for that. What do you think about the points I've made?

I don't think that is His greatest promise. Nor do I believe the Rothschilds are anointed any more than I believe this--
...God punished them as promised by raising up a man after their own image, as an Ismaelite.

The difference between you and I is, I can see the good from bad and vice versa. I can look at different perspectives and overall a wider knowledge base than you. I'm not bragging about this, it's just the truth.
Jeremiah 1-3 is '100% jewish'
Jesus Christ and Paul were 100% jewish...
we learn there are those who belong to the tribe via bloodline, but not by spirit..the jews who were 'cut off'.
The children of Abraham are those who share in his spirit and not merely his blood.
So yeh your hard on for all things jewish is a worship of bloodlines..and Jesus said 'you are sons of satan' to the bloodline tribal jews.

In the muslim world we have the same thing from the syeds who are bloodline descendants of Fatima RA and hence the prophet SAW
they regularly resort to stories of past persecution (the battle of karbala for example) when you call into account their evil actions...they cry foul and they manipulate the dumb masses using these ideas ie 'but we are syeds and we belong to the prophet' and so they have people willing to murder on their behalf all out of a supposed love for a fking bloodline.
yet i look at that and think "our version of jews, these pricks". When iw as in pakistan one time there was a guy known for raping vulnerable women, he had a gang of followers who were ready to murder and were threatening weaker people. The majority of people brought into his bs...but he was brutally murdered in the end by his own SONS..i swear to God this is a true story. His sons fed his remains to dogs, because they knew what type of monster he was..and it was a case where people used to ask 'when will we receive justice?', he had politicians and wealthy people backing him, he was running scams all over and looting widows and orphans, textbook biblical type evil...and people regarded him as a man of God. in the end he got what was coming to him.

the bloodline game is one that thick cunts follow and ive seen it most of my life, hence ive developed a deep intolerance for it. I found solace, in the gospel, when I finally saw that Jesus himself of all people, confirmed my own views when he told those rabbis 'you are sons of Satan'. Back then I used to post on this muslim forum online where I got threatened by people who actually knew me because I insulted their precious bloodline allegiance and attacked a supposed man of God.

You know, it's funny that i would have left islam, were it not for what was in the gospel...it is crazy that isnt it? the fact that i saw so much bs amongst muslims of a certain persuasion, despite believing in the deeper ideas, on the surface level i was so pissed off i was looking for a legitimate excuse to walk away from it after years of frustration and witnessing evil. Carrying that burden of knowing evil but not having anyone 'good' on my side. only to find Jesus shared the same understanding I did and reminded me ultimately that good will prevail. See even though that message is in islam, all over, sometimes you need to see it from a different side/language/culture for it to hit home.

You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit.

This can also be understood from a deeper pov. Seeds represent desire/intent..ie the jews wished to establish messianic israel, rebuild the jewish temple and defeat the superpowers of that region ie byzantines, sassanids.

The image of their archetypal messiah, was NOT Jesus, in their mind, it was a davidic ruler with the power of prophecy, revelation and Law, like Moses. There are many historical rabbinic ideas surrounding this..eghttp://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/theprophet.html
since they rejected the messiah God chose from them...and they could not receive what they 'desired', their attempt to shape the world according to their own image, failed.
in the 7th century, let's just say what they 'desired' was not given to them and instead given to ishmaelites ie they didnt enjoy the fruit, though they planted the seeds. However even this goes back to what Paul said 'by their tresspass the gentiles have been reckoned' (i cant remember the exact words) so although i can easily condemn jews and refer to them as mystery babylon, the synagogue of satan and so forth..i can even see that many things occur by the will of God through them inc the manifestation of prophet Mohammad, which is also something Isaiah 42 carries.

You have to look at real history, inc the appearance of islam, the muslim conquest of jerusalem and so forth as something that most def is not 'hidden' in the bible, it is there if you really look for it.
the mere fact that these texts form a collective consciousness means people can collectively bring about a manifestation of events either consciously or unconsciously.
i dont directly follow the law of attraction new age ideas completely because i also understand there is a yin and a yang to it, ie the divine decree, but within that ive also experienced so many things occur in my life that ive visualised, wanted....not wanted, shadow themes, things ive planted in my 'heart'...i know first hand that a collective jewish consciousness has the ability to shape events in the world on a mass scale. I can 'give them that'..they have power, mental/spiritual power.

look at the world around us, Revelation told us..and it goes back to the jewish nation too..be it christianity, the entire beast system, right to colonialism as offshoots of rome etc.
However that doesnt mean i regard everything they do as good..or necesserily evil.
ive said quite a few times, ironically...that it is promised to them as per Surah 17:104 (or it might be 103, forgot) but it's there. However that is along with the descent of Jesus Christ AS. So anything prior to that, i have to judge it for what it is. i say it's mystery babylon..ive repeated why many times over. i don't expect most christians on this forum to agree but im happy knowing there are a few around who understand.

Veteran

In Romans 11:17-24. Paul speaks of the olive tree that represents Israel. The branches (Jews) were broken off because of unbelief and the wild olive shoots (Gentiles) were grafted in to share in the nourishment of the tree.

The natural branches could be grafted back into the tree if they accepted the conditions. God is no respecter of nations or individuals. All who turn to Him will be accepted.

"For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him" (Romans 10:12).

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:26).

"I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you" (John 15:5-7).

The new Israel inherits God’s covenant promises. Those who have accepted Christ become the chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God (Compare 1 Peter 2:9-10 with Exodus 19:5-6).

The human race is in desperate need of redemption. God yearns to forgive and cleanse (John 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:4). It is the role of the Church to carry this news to the world.

Now let me ask some rhetorical questions? Do you think God and His Word contradicts itself? Do you think that after Jesus told the Jews they were no longer a chosen people and never will be again that He would go back on His Word? Matthew21:43, Matthew 21:19, Matthew 23:38. Did He change His mind later so their not being chosen should be partial instead? Does God change His mind ever? Did Paul make a huge mistake when he wrote that everyone is chosen as long as they accept Christ as their personal Saviour? Remember God does not change, today, yesterday, and forever. His Words are unchanging and eternal. When He says something, it can never be taken back. Also everything that is in the Bible is there because God chose it to be. So you have misunderstood Romans 11 and the entire Bible on the subject of Israel.

Jesus has never or ever will abandon anyone who accepts Him even among Jews. The apostles were mostly Jewish in the early Christian Church and they were Christian because they accepted Jesus as their personal Saviour. Israel is no longer God's missionary nation as Jesus told them, but they can be saved on a individual basis just like the Gentiles. Jesus and the apostles are VERY CLEAR about that in the New Testament and I have put up scripture after scripture proving it. The Jews are not going to be getting any special treatment from God. They will be treated like all of us depending on their choices on whether they choose Christ or not.

Veteran

You wrote, "Me belief is that this judgment is at the end of the seven year period the Bible calls "the time of Jacob's trouble", a season of unparalleled persecution against Jews." I understood it as there is going to be a separate tribulation where only the Jews will persecuted. In the Bible in end time prophecy there are two tribulations. the first is not world wide but the second one is. Both of the tribulations are never about persecuting only Jews. The powers that be persecute those who accept Jesus as their personal Saviour, have His faith and keep His commandments. There is nothing in the Bible that separates the Jews from the rest of us. There are only two classes of people in end time prophecy. Those accept Christ and those who don't and the Bible is clear on ther destinies too.

When Revelation 7 speaks of 144,000 witnesses from the children of Israel and then goes and names every literal tribe of Israel, do you just kind of cough and hope no one notices? I cannot believe the things I'm supposed to accept as "spiritual".

First I am going to ask you the same question I've just asked @elsbet. Do you think that after Jesus told the Jews they were no longer a chosen people and never will be again that He would go back on His Word? Matthew21:43, Matthew 21:19, Matthew 23:38. Did He change His mind later so their not being chosen should be partial instead? Does God change His mind ever? Did Paul make a huge mistake when he wrote that everyone is chosen as long as they accept Christ as their personal Saviour? Remember God does not change, today, yesterday, and forever. His Words are unchanging and eternal. When He says something, it can never be taken back. Also everything that is in the Bible is there because God chose it to be. So you have misunderstood the entire Bible on the subject of Israel I'm afraid.

We know that all who accept Jesus as their personal Saviour, have faith in Him and keep His commandments are Israel according to Jesus and the apostles. Romans 2:28-29, Galatians 3:29, 6:15-16. Bear that in mind whenever you read about God's people in the New Testament and those who will be saved. They are spiritual Jews not literal Jews. The 144,000 are not literal Jews going by everything the Bible so clearly states especially in the New Testament. If you don't accept them as spiritual Israel, you're not accepting the Word of God.

The other reason why the 144,000 can't be literal Jews is because the Old Testament reveals that 10 of the 12 tribes were carried away by the Assyrians. "In the ninth year of Hoshea, the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes."2 Kings 17:6.

History records that long before the time of Jesus, some of the 10 tribes returned to Samaria after intermarrying with the Assyrians. Their descendants, known as Samaritans, were hated by the Jews because they were no longer "pure" Israelites in blood or religion. In fact, because the 10 tribes have been so thoroughly scattered around the world and absorbed by their host nations, today a person would be hard pressed to find even one pure descendant from the tribe of Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, or Simeon-much less 12,000 of them!

To what purpose? What about those who don't get to go through the Tribulation? Not as clean?

The Bible speaks of two great tribulations in prophecy. One was during the papal persecution of the Dark Ages, when millions of Christians were slain. But the primary "great tribulation" refers to the time just before Christ's second coming, as referred to in Daniel12:1-2: "And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

I'm sure you know about the dark ages so you know how the trials and tribulations purged and cleansed God’s faithful people in those times. It will be worse during the end times but the same will happen where people will have to make choices who they will serve especially as the false Church and governments will make life hard on them. "And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."Revelation 13:17.

"Gather out of His kingdom". So this horrible period of the murderous "purging" of God's faithful people -- this brutal tribulation of believers -- is actually taking place when God is on the throne of the earth?

The Parable of the Tares Explained. Matthew 13:36-43."Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.” He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

Jesus won't be on the throne of the earth when the tribulation happens. It will happen just before He returns as the Bible is clear about.

Revelation 3:10-13 says, "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name. “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”"

Do you see how similar the two scriptures are at the end? "He who has an ear, let him hear." Like I said and repeat, "God's people are urged to hold on until He comes. They will not be taken to heaven before these events."

I won't argue the whole Church and Israel thing with you. There are other threads for that. What do you think about the points I've made?

The points you've made aren't new to me. You still refuse to accept what the Bible says about Israel. Once you accept what the Bible says about Israel all will fall into place and you won't talk about Jews as a separate people any more. The Jews (real genetic Jews are very few and far between) are just like us. They will be answerable to God like we all will be. They are not going to have special treatment from God. They will treated as everyone in the whole world will be since creation.

Star

In Romans 11:17-24. Paul speaks of the olive tree that represents Israel. The branches (Jews) were broken off because of unbelief and the wild olive shoots (Gentiles) were grafted in to share in the nourishment of the tree.

The natural branches could be grafted back into the tree if they accepted the conditions. God is no respecter of nations or individuals. All who turn to Him will be accepted.

"For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him" (Romans 10:12).

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:26).

"I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you" (John 15:5-7).

The new Israel inherits God’s covenant promises. Those who have accepted Christ become the chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God (Compare 1 Peter 2:9-10 with Exodus 19:5-6).

The human race is in desperate need of redemption. God yearns to forgive and cleanse (John 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:4). It is the role of the Church to carry this news to the world.

Now let me ask some rhetorical questions? Do you think God and His Word contradicts itself? Do you think that after Jesus told the Jews they were no longer a chosen people and never will be again that He would go back on His Word? Matthew21:43, Matthew 21:19, Matthew 23:38. Did He change His mind later so their not being chosen should be partial instead? Does God change His mind ever? Did Paul make a huge mistake when he wrote that everyone is chosen as long as they accept Christ as their personal Saviour? Remember God does not change, today, yesterday, and forever. His Words are unchanging and eternal. When He says something, it can never be taken back. Also everything that is in the Bible is there because God chose it to be. So you have misunderstood Romans 11 and the entire Bible on the subject of Israel.

Jesus has never or ever will abandon anyone who accepts Him even among Jews. The apostles were mostly Jewish in the early Christian Church and they were Christian because they accepted Jesus as their personal Saviour. Israel is no longer God's missionary nation as Jesus told them, but they can be saved on a individual basis just like the Gentiles. Jesus and the apostles are VERY CLEAR about that in the New Testament and I have put up scripture after scripture proving it. The Jews are not going to be getting any special treatment from God. They will be treated like all of us depending on their choices on whether they choose Christ or not.

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

​

"The Deliverer will come from Zion;​

He will remove godlessness from Jacob. And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”​

Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs.

For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. For God has consigned all men to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all.

Of all judgments, spiritual judgments are the sorest; of these the apostle is here speaking. The restoration of the Jews is, in the course of things, far less improbable than the call of the Gentiles to be the children of Abraham; and though others now possess these privileges, it will not hinder their being admitted again.

By rejecting the gospel, and by their indignation at its being preached to the Gentiles, the Jews were become enemies to God; yet they are still to be favoured for the sake of their pious fathers. Though at present they are enemies to the gospel, for their hatred to the Gentiles; yet, when God's time is come, that will no longer exist, and God's love to their fathers will be remembered. True grace seeks not to confine God's favour. Those who find mercy themselves, should endeavour that through their mercy others also may obtain mercy.

Not that the Jews will be restored to have their priesthood, and temple, and ceremonies again; an end is put to all these; but they are to be brought to believe in Christ, the true become one sheep-fold with the Gentiles, under Christ the Great Shepherd. The captivities of Israel, their dispersion, and their being shut out from the church, are emblems of the believer's corrections for doing wrong; and the continued care of the Lord towards that people, and the final mercy and blessed restoration intended for them, show the patience and love of God.Romans 11:26 Commentaries