Microsoft Releases IE 8 (http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/news/2009/03/reuters_us_microsoft) (Wired/Reuters)
Microsoft is set to publicly launch Internet Explorer 8 early on Thursday, the latest version of its market-dominating Web browser.

The application, an integral part of Microsoft's eagerly awaited Windows 7 operating system, can be downloaded from Microsoft's website from 9 a.m. Pacific time, free for people using licensed Microsoft operating systems.

IE8, as it is commonly referred to, has been in public beta testing for about a year, but Thursday's launch marks its full public rollout.

Chris_D

03-19-2009, 08:41 AM

Where's the OSX version.. kidding...

Are there still web sites that require IE? I imagine more and more people are using alternatives these days.

total

03-19-2009, 08:51 AM

Where's the OSX version.. kidding...

Are there still web sites that require IE? I imagine more and more people are using alternatives these days.

The industry I work in (HVAC) still has quite a few websites that require IE. I've emailed quite a few of them and asked them if they have plans on supporting other browsers with little to no success. Granted most of these sites are made with Frontpage so I'm not expecting a whole lot.

I've used IE8 quite a bit in Windows 7. Wasn't too impressed honestly. From the sounds of it this will be the last IE based on Trident so I wouldn't count on this one being replaced for some time. I had it crash quite a few times on me for no apparent reason so I just quit bothering with it.

Ancalagon

03-19-2009, 08:54 AM

Sorry MS, not bothering this time, FF3 + Adblock Plus + Firebug + other addons I forget make me a happy man.

menage

03-19-2009, 08:55 AM

I'm actually digging Chrome. Just easy as fuck.

cppcrusader

03-19-2009, 08:57 AM

One of the guys in my office installed it this morning and just told me it's already boned. He was trying to install the latest Flash player but kept getting messages to enable something in the addon manager, even though everything was enabled.

Telefrog

03-19-2009, 09:08 AM

Unfortunately, in the government space IE is still a necessity. Heck, there are still plenty of state and local agency sites that require IE6!

H.Bogard

03-19-2009, 09:18 AM

Does it have its own Adblock Plus yet?

What about RSS tickers? Ubiquity alternative? No?

What the heck have they been working on, then!

Ancalagon

03-19-2009, 09:22 AM

Unfortunately, in the government space IE is still a necessity. Heck, there are still plenty of state and local agency sites that require IE6!

I wish there were a legal requirement prohibiting that.

In fact, I guess if you really wanted to argue it and take it to court and stuff, you could say that all government websites should be viewable by anyone using any browser, so as not to force them to use proprietary technology like Windows. What if I had Ubuntu or something? No IE for me. I'd probably say government sites shoud be accessible to all, but.... some habits die hard I guess.

Actually, it would be nice if Google upgraded their web crawler to seek and destroy any pages coded for IE6. The reason I say that is that most websites that are coded for IE6 are also old and hideously ugly. Think of the children! I dont want my kids seeing a site that uses stuff like color=#FF0000!

Telefrog

03-19-2009, 09:50 AM

I wish there were a legal requirement prohibiting that.

In fact, I guess if you really wanted to argue it and take it to court and stuff, you could say that all government websites should be viewable by anyone using any browser, so as not to force them to use proprietary technology like Windows. What if I had Ubuntu or something? No IE for me. I'd probably say government sites shoud be accessible to all, but.... some habits die hard I guess.

Actually, it would be nice if Google upgraded their web crawler to seek and destroy any pages coded for IE6. The reason I say that is that most websites that are coded for IE6 are also old and hideously ugly. Think of the children! I dont want my kids seeing a site that uses stuff like color=#FF0000!

Preaching to the choir, man. I have to sift through a bunch of these everyday. :(

I guess the only roadblock to a suit like that would be the fact that IE as well as most other browsers are free. As long as the agency only requires a free application, what would the argument be about besides convenience?

Ancalagon

03-19-2009, 10:24 AM

Preaching to the choir, man. I have to sift through a bunch of these everyday. :(

I guess the only roadblock to a suit like that would be the fact that IE as well as most other browsers are free. As long as the agency only requires a free application, what would the argument be about besides convenience?

The fact that IE, while free, requires an MS operating system which is a proprietary product?

Point being, imagine I'm a hippy undergrad student out to save the world, and I want to contribute to my local government using a laptop built from recycled gear and run using solar energy, running Ubuntu, and I cant contribute because I dont run Windows? Unfair. Extreme example, but still means anyone not running Windows cant contribute to government. Perhaps government should run an official torrent portal then?

If IE were released for Unix/MacOS this issue would go away, but we all know that will never happen.

Wraith

03-19-2009, 10:31 AM

If IE were released for Unix/MacOS this issue would go away, but we all know that will never happen.... again (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_for_Mac).

Ancalagon

03-19-2009, 10:35 AM

... again (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_for_Mac).

Didnt know about that. Well that still leaves out Unix/Linux.

Chris_D

03-19-2009, 10:40 AM

I remember coding for IE on mac. Now that thing had some oddities.

cppcrusader

03-19-2009, 10:41 AM

Unfortunately, in the government space IE is still a necessity. Heck, there are still plenty of state and local agency sites that require IE6!

I wish it were only state and local agencies that were still using it.

total

03-19-2009, 10:42 AM

... again (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_for_Mac).

From what I hear that doesn't count as a real browser. It also hasn't really been updated in 9 years. So yeah might as well suggest using Netscape.

Wraith

03-19-2009, 10:46 AM

From what I hear that doesn't count as a real browser. It also hasn't really been updated in 9 years. So yeah might as well suggest using Netscape.Yeah, it's ancient, and probably not recommended for use by anyone today. Just saying that they did, at one time, have an IE for Mac.

Wraith

03-19-2009, 10:51 AM

PCMag's review (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2328878,00.asp). In Short:Bottom Line
The latest version of first the world's leading browser delivers category-leading security and adds some pretty slick browsing aids, such as WebSlices and Accelerators. It defaults to a more standards-compliant mode, but still offers a backward compatibility button. A predictive address bar brings it closer to Firefox, but the lack of a download manager and robust extension ecosystem hold the browser back.

Cons
JavaScript not as snappy as with some other browsers. Uses more memory than Firefox. No download manager.

Telefrog

03-19-2009, 10:57 AM

The fact that IE, while free, requires an MS operating system which is a proprietary product?

Point being, imagine I'm a hippy undergrad student out to save the world, and I want to contribute to my local government using a laptop built from recycled gear and run using solar energy, running Ubuntu, and I cant contribute because I dont run Windows? Unfair. Extreme example, but still means anyone not running Windows cant contribute to government. Perhaps government should run an official torrent portal then?

Why stop there? Why not argue that requiring a computer to view the agency site is financially/technologically discriminatory? Why not require the government to send someone out each day to everyone's place of residence to personally communicate announcements? :D

We can get as absurdist as we want with this. The crux is that IE/Firefox/Safari/Chrome/whatever are all free apps. The hardware/OS may not be free, but then again voting isn't really free for most people either since most of us have to spend some gas and time off work to do it. Serving on a jury isn't exactly free despite the "compensation" they pay you since you're undoubtedly losing more in wages. I can't hold my government responsible for making everything available for absolutely free.

Ancalagon

03-19-2009, 11:16 AM

Why stop there? Why not argue that requiring a computer to view the agency site is financially/technologically discriminatory? Why not require the government to send someone out each day to everyone's place of residence to personally communicate announcements? :D

We can get as absurdist as we want with this. The crux is that IE/Firefox/Safari/Chrome/whatever are all free apps. The hardware/OS may not be free, but then again voting isn't really free for most people either since most of us have to spend some gas and time off work to do it. Serving on a jury isn't exactly free despite the "compensation" they pay you since you're undoubtedly losing more in wages. I can't hold my government responsible for making everything available for absolutely free.

My argument still stands - Windows isnt a free app. Targeting the web standards in general and not IE allows your website to be used by browsers we probably have never heard of, never mind FireFox and Chrome.

I'd argue that web based government services are more of a privilege than a right, but still, they need to be accessible to everyone without prejudice based on how much money you have, and for this reason I think the IE only requirement needs to go. Of course, I know that most of these websites will work on FireFox, just not very well, but I dont think any gov website should explicity require any particular browser.

total

03-19-2009, 11:21 AM

Why stop there? Why not argue that requiring a computer to view the agency site is financially/technologically discriminatory? Why not require the government to send someone out each day to everyone's place of residence to personally communicate announcements? :D

We can get as absurdist as we want with this. The crux is that IE/Firefox/Safari/Chrome/whatever are all free apps. The hardware/OS may not be free, but then again voting isn't really free for most people either since most of us have to spend some gas and time off work to do it. Serving on a jury isn't exactly free despite the "compensation" they pay you since you're undoubtedly losing more in wages. I can't hold my government responsible for making everything available for absolutely free.

No one is asking for free, we're asking for compatible. If there were IE for every single operating system then yeah who cares. The fact of the matter is you have to own a specific operating system to run IE, and that OS is not free, so IE is not free in any way. On top of that there is absolutely no reason these websites should be incompatible with anything other than IE. This isn't fucking 1991, we don't need IE only websites anymore. Period.

Ninja Edit: And voting? Are you high? You don't take time off from work to vote, you are legally entitled to be paid to do so. And absentee ballots, online voting and the such are there so you don't have to spend gas to get there. How do you think those that are disabled do it?

Telefrog

03-19-2009, 11:41 AM

No one is asking for free, we're asking for compatible. If there were IE for every single operating system then yeah who cares. The fact of the matter is you have to own a specific operating system to run IE, and that OS is not free, so IE is not free in any way. On top of that there is absolutely no reason these websites should be incompatible with anything other than IE. This isn't fucking 1991, we don't need IE only websites anymore. Period.

Sure, except someone has to pay for the websites getting updated. Someone will have to upgrade all the agency user systems to something past Windows 95. Someone will have to pay for all the inter-agency software getting updated. Backend systems will have to be refreshed past old IBM mainframe setups. Unfortunately, no one wants to foot that bill. Taxpayers have a funny sense of priorities and want their streets smoothed and cops paid for before they foot the bill to switch their government seat over to an open source system.

I understand the gripe here. Believe me, as someone that has to communicate with state, federal, and educational entities every day, I know it sucks. Bad.

Back on topic. We've used IE8 RC for a bit now in some of our systems and it's pretty good. Obviously, it isn't as flexible as some of the others, but it's still a marked improvement.

Edit:

And voting? Are you high? You don't take time off from work to vote, you are legally entitled to be paid to do so. And absentee ballots, online voting and the such are there so you don't have to spend gas to get there. How do you think those that are disabled do it?

Paid time off to vote varies by state (http://employmentlawpost.com/theword/2008/10/15/time-off-to-vote-for-employees-a-state-by-state-survey-2/). The crux of it is that most states do not actually require time off as long as voting times are within one or two hours of your work time. Even fewer require that time to be paid.

total

03-19-2009, 06:30 PM

Sure, except someone has to pay for the websites getting updated. Someone will have to upgrade all the agency user systems to something past Windows 95. Someone will have to pay for all the inter-agency software getting updated. Backend systems will have to be refreshed past old IBM mainframe setups. Unfortunately, no one wants to foot that bill. Taxpayers have a funny sense of priorities and want their streets smoothed and cops paid for before they foot the bill to switch their government seat over to an open source system.

One could argue that moving these systems to open source would save a little money in the short term and even more in the long term. Your hardware upgrade cycle is going to be reduced, your software costs are going to be non-existent for the most part with support being your biggest initial cost. Your support costs over time SHOULD be drastically reduced. There was actually an article on /. not too long ago about mainframes (older IBM RS series I believe) making a come back in some medium sized businesses precisely because of the progress open source has been making. I'm sure it is highly dependent on the system already in place (energy savings VS hardware existing and what not), but the idea that you can save with dummys and a mainframe is alive and kicking (again).

I understand the gripe here. Believe me, as someone that has to communicate with state, federal, and educational entities every day, I know it sucks. Bad.

I gave up on IT as a profession years ago. I simply do not have the patience for some of the people in the industry. There are brilliant people in the field, but I found them few and far between. I really am sorry you have to put up with not only IT, but IT and government. :(

Back on topic. We've used IE8 RC for a bit now in some of our systems and it's pretty good. Obviously, it isn't as flexible as some of the others, but it's still a marked improvement.

And I'm not saying that IE8 is "bad" here really. I mean, I will say it seems to be better than 7 but my limited experience with it was not positive. It definitely would not have me switching browsers any time soon.

Edit:

Paid time off to vote varies by state (http://employmentlawpost.com/theword/2008/10/15/time-off-to-vote-for-employees-a-state-by-state-survey-2/). The crux of it is that most states do not actually require time off as long as voting times are within one or two hours of your work time. Even fewer require that time to be paid.

I honestly had no idea. In MN our employer is required to give us paid time in the morning to vote. I've never had an employer argue with me when I told them I wouldn't be in until after I was done voting. I honestly thought that was a federally mandated deal. Apparently I am dead wrong.

My point still stands though. There is no reason any government should be forcing you to pay for software to interact with them. Let me refine that by saying any democratic government (silly China and their Red Flag Linux (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Flag_Linux)). This is especially true when dealing with a company who has been declared an illegal monopoly in the past by the damn government themselves. Really they are only supporting the exact reasoning they declared them illegal in the first place. High asses, all of them.