Stadiums are almost ready , never heard about the lake and the scale of emmigration is overstated I am from Warsaw not many people emigrate from here , but I am sure the numbers are much greater in smaller towns and villages. Beware of "documentaries" remeber the falling man and naudet bros

My bet is for a completely faked event. There are too many coincidental circumstances for this story to be real.

1) Is there really a need to "get rid" of politicians these days? In Europe? The rule of the banks, of the globalists and of Israel knows no bounds and all public officials are equally blackmailable. What's the need to have a plane crashing, with all the things that can go wrong in such an event? Character assassination, slander, are so much easier.

2) The fact that Lech Kaczyński was a twin, of all elements, is reason for suspicion.

maybe there never were twins in the first place, it was always the same "actor"; or there were twins, and all the "dead one" has to do today to go around is to pretend to be the living brother, and both can intermittently enjoy the early retirement.

3) We are told that together with the president (quoting wickedpedia) died "senior Polish military officers, the president of the National Bank of Poland, Poland's deputy foreign minister, Polish government officials, 12 members of the Polish parliament, senior members of the Polish clergy, and relatives of victims of the Katyn massacre." Now, isn't it true that aside of one or two characters that are known via TV, all these identities could be completely fake? Who knows all government officials? Who knows these "relatives of the victims"? Who had even heard of Obama before he was offered to the public as a contestant for the presidency? All they have to do is to tell us that these individuals are or were "known", and we will take the whole event for real because it seems so much harder to get away with fake deaths of "known" people.Wasn't this the whole reason to have supposed "celebrities" on the "planes" on 9/11, so that the idea of complete fakery could be dismissed right away?

As to the reasons, the whole psy-op is certainly a head-scratcher. We will have to think out of the box to figure out this one. But I would concentrate first on gathering all the strange/impossible facts and coincidences, and all the things that while given by the media as true, could easily be false (providing pictures as well) and leave the speculation on reasons and motives on the background for the time being.

The facts, the images, the bios, the memorials, the aftermath, the details... that's were your insider position gets particularly useful, bostonterrierowner, since you have access to the local media.

nonhocapito wrote:My bet is for a completely faked event. There are too many coincidental circumstances for this story to be real.

1) Is there really a need to "get rid" of politicians these days? In Europe? The rule of the banks, of the globalists and of Israel knows no bounds and all public officials are equally blackmailable. What's the need to have a plane crashing, with all the things that can go wrong in such an event? Character assassination, slander, are so much easier.

2) The fact that Lech Kaczyński was a twin, of all elements, is reason for suspicion.

maybe there never were twins in the first place, it was always the same "actor"; or there were twins, and all the "dead one" has to do today to go around is to pretend to be the living brother, and both can intermittently enjoy the early retirement.

3) We are told that together with the president (quoting wickedpedia) died "senior Polish military officers, the president of the National Bank of Poland, Poland's deputy foreign minister, Polish government officials, 12 members of the Polish parliament, senior members of the Polish clergy, and relatives of victims of the Katyn massacre." Now, isn't it true that aside of one or two characters that are known via TV, all these identities could be completely fake? Who knows all government officials? Who knows these "relatives of the victims"? Who had even heard of Obama before he was offered to the public as a contestant for the presidency? All they have to do is to tell us that these individuals are or were "known", and we will take the whole event for real because it seems so much harder to get away with fake deaths of "known" people.Wasn't this the whole reason to have supposed "celebrities" on the "planes" on 9/11, so that the idea of complete fakery could be dismissed right away?

As to the reasons, the whole psy-op is certainly a head-scratcher. We will have to think out of the box to figure out this one. But I would concentrate first on gathering all the strange/impossible facts and coincidences, and all the things that while given by the media as true, could easily be false (providing pictures as well) and leave the speculation on reasons and motives on the background for the time being.

The facts, the images, the bios, the memorials, the aftermath, the details... that's were your insider position gets particularly useful, bostonterrierowner, since you have access to the local media.

hoi.polloi.

Actually I Know somebody that died on this plane , to be more precise he was my mothe's friend , commander of representantion unit of polish army Kazimierz Gilarski. He was real and he is said to have died on April 10th 2010 , his widow confirms.

Kaczynski Brothers were real twins , they starred in the movie from 1962 " o dwoch takich co ukradli ksiezyc " They have been around in public for 30 years plus my friend's aunt used to work Maria Kaczynska their mother. She is still around. I put my credibility on them not beeing Vicsims,

It makes all this even weirder. I totaly agree with you that there was no need to assasinate them , any single person on this plane. They were totaly good , cooperating , servile politicians. I am sure that we will finally get to the bottom of this. Right now I can say one thing , if this plane was taken down Kaczynski wasnt the reason for it.\\

Official worth considering is Janusz Kurtyka , president of Institute of National Remeberence . This is quasi- persecution office dealing with all anti - polish , treasonus activity and crimes against polish nation . It was set up in 2000 among much noise and controversy. INP is also a publisher , recently they published a book on Lech Walesa. It said the truth about this morron , showing that he was the SB ( communist secret police) agent and by no means national here despite being sold as such o the sheeple worldwide. Kurtyka made lots of enemies , MSM went wild on him to stop this publication but he didnt back down. Who knows what he had in plans before his term was to expire which was to happen this year. Kaczynski bros and Walesa were enemies , just for the record.

Plus Anna Walentynowicz was on this plane , she was a real person behind Gdansk Shipyard strikes that gave the world SOLIDARITY. It was a genuine thing back than but was hijacked by secret police who installed Walesa their puppet and illiterate laborer. Remeber the story about him jumping the fence of the shipyard? Well in reality he was brought there by SB's motorboat , Walentynowicz reminded that on every occasion. Kaczynski brought her back from the oblivion , gave honors some financila gratification etc. Walentynowicz was a real party spoiler for lots of our politicians , she had a real respect and was a geniune freedom fighter. It doesnt make Kaczynski genuine too , he was just playing her card to weaken Walesa camp ( I mean people form PLatforma Obywatelska , the rulling party and MSM that find it in their interest to uphold this idiot's myth" ) on our local field. I mentioned it before , there wasnt and difference between them in bending over to USA , ISRAEL or EU. When you get off the plane in Gdansk , you are on Lech Walesa Airport , like a spit in a face If any of you guys spoke polish and had a misfortune to listen to Walesa you couldnt have been able to resist an impression that the guy is mentally handicapped. I kid you not its so pathetic.

Brig. Gen. Miron Chodakowski 52 Orthodox Ordinary of the Polish Armed ForcesLt. Col. Czesław Cywiński 84 President of the World Association of Home Army SoldiersLt. Col. Zbigniew Dębski 87 Co-founder of the Union of Warsaw Insurgents

Leszek Deptuła 57 Member of the Sejm (PSL)Grzegorz Dolniak 50 Member of the Sejm (PO)

Katarzyna Doraczyńska 31 Press office staffer at the Chancellery of the President of the Republic of PolandEdward Duchnowski 80 Secretary General of the Union of SybiraksAleksander Fedorowicz 39 Interpreter at the Chancellery of the President of the Republic of Poland

Przemysław Gosiewski 45 Member of the Sejm, former Deputy Prime Minister (PiS)Bronisław Gostomski 61 Personal Roman Catholic chaplain to President KaczorowskiMaj. Robert Grzywna 36 Co-pilotMariusz Handzlik 44 Undersecretary of State at the Chancellery of the President of the Republic of PolandRoman Indrzejczyk 78 Personal Roman Catholic chaplain to President KaczyńskiLt. Paweł Janeczek 37 Close protection officerDariusz Jankowski 54 Staffer at the Chancellery of the President of the Republic of PolandNatalia Januszko 22 Flight attendant

Izabela Jaruga-Nowacka 59 Member of the Sejm, former Deputy Prime Minister (SLD)Józef Joniec 50 Roman Catholic priest, Piarist fatherRyszard Kaczorowski 90 Former president of the Republic of Poland in exileMaria Kaczyńska 67 Wife of President KaczyńskiLech Kaczyński 60 President of the Republic of PolandSebastian Karpiniuk 37 Member of the Sejm (PO)VAdm. Andrzej Karweta 51 Commander of the Navy

Brig. Gen. Stanisław Komornicki 85 Chancellor of the Order of Virtuti Militari

Stanisław Komorowski 56 Deputy Minister of National DefenceWO2 Paweł Krajewski 35 Close protection officerAndrzej Kremer 48 Deputy Minister of Foreign AffairsZdzisław Król 74 Roman Catholic priest, member of the Council for the Protection of Struggle and Martyrdom SitesJanusz Krupski 58 Head of the Office for War Veterans and Victims of OppressionJanusz Kurtyka 49 President of the Institute of National RemembranceAndrzej Kwaśnik 53 Roman Catholic police chaplain and chaplain to the Katyn Families

Andrzej Przewoźnik 46 Secretary of the Council for the Protection of Struggle and Martyrdom Sites

Krzysztof Putra 52 Deputy Marshal of the Sejm (PiS)

Ryszard Rumianek 62 Roman Catholic priest, Rector of the Card. Wyszyński UniversityArkadiusz Rybicki 57 Member of the Sejm (PO)Andrzej Sariusz-Skąpski 72 President of the Federation of Katyn FamiliesWojciech Seweryn 70 Sculptor, author of the Katyn Monument in Chicago

Sławomir Skrzypek 46 President of the National Bank of PolandLeszek Solski 75 Representative of the Katyn FamiliesWładysław Stasiak 44 Head of the Chancellery of the President of the Republic of Poland, former Minister of the Interior and Administration

WO2 Jacek Surówka 36 Close protection officerAleksander Szczygło 46 Head of the National Security BureauJerzy Szmajdziński 58 Deputy Marshal of the Sejm, former Defence Minister (SLD)

Jolanta Szymanek-Deresz 55 Member of the Sejm, former Head of the Chancellery of the President of the Republic of Poland (SLD)

Izabela Tomaszewska 54 Head of the Protocolar Unit at the Chancellery of the President of the Republic of PolandWO2 Marek Uleryk 35 Close protection officerAnna Walentynowicz 80 Co-founder of the Solidarity trade union

Teresa Walewska-Przyjałkowska 71 Deputy President of the Golgotha of the East FoundationZbigniew Wassermann 60 Member of the Sejm, former Minister for Intelligence Coördination (PiS)

Wiesław Woda 63 Member of the Sejm (PSL)Edward Wojtas 55 Member of the Sejm (PSL)Paweł Wypych 42 Secretary of State at the Chancellery of the President of the Republic of Poland, former President of the Social Insurance Institution

Stanisław Zając 60 Senator (PiS)Janusz Zakrzeński 74 Theatrical and film actor, member of the Program Board of the Union of PiłsudskiitesLt. Artur Ziętek 31 NavigatorGabriela Zych 81 Representative of the Katyn Families

Most of these people warranted their own private planes, every state/military protocol would have been broken to allow this flight!

No Army, Navy, Air-Force, Government or Bank, for that matter, would allow such a flight. It's preposterous! Can you imagine them all on the plane looking at each other!! My first move would be to get off that plane!

I find this statement from BTO a little curious!

"He was real and he is said to have died on April 10th 2010 , his widow confirms."

Did his widow cofirm "that he is real" and "that he is said to have died"? Also, to whom did she confirm?

"He was real and he is said to have died on April 10th 2010 , his widow confirms."

Did his widow cofirm "that he is real" and "that he is said to have died"? Also, to whom did she confirm?

Are you implying something?

I wrote that my mother knew general Kazimierz Gilarski . I maybe used too official language , what I was saying was that my mother was on the phone with his wife and she was really mourning her late housband. Im this way she"confirmed". She didnt use the words : I confirm my housband to be a real person , and yes that also means that he really died on this plane ". Dont be ridiculous. You are receiving from me the first person account that at least one person over there was real . 100% real . I was answering hoi.polloi's honest and understandable doubts about whole this event. As a researcher he needs to be proven right . General Gilarski was a real army official , not like Federal Judge John Roll of Gabby Gifford's case , created for this occasion only. There is nothing curious about my statement I hope all is clear now

saying that he is said to have died on this plane I meant that we cant be sure what really happen . Was this a plane crash? Were they killed in some other way? Are they in some carribean island enjoying life ? Was Gilarski's widow just pretending that her husband died or she was convinced he did? Thats the whole point of this thread , we dont know what really happened hence expressions like " said to have died" , "allegedly died" ," maybe etc.

Am I implying something? Did you get the impression that I was implying something?

You are telling us what your mother allegedly told you about what the alleged bereaved wife allegedly said! "He was definitely real and he definitely died"......... on a plane with the President, Head of the army, Head of the Navy, Head of the Air-Force, Head of State in Exile, The Head of the National Bank, the Head of the Religiosia Mafia, Ex Foreign Minister, Ex Prime Minister,......

brianv wrote:Am I implying something? Did you get the impression that I was implying something?

You are telling us what your mother allegedly told you about what the alleged bereaved wife allegedly said! "He was definitely real and he definitely died"......... on a plane with the President, Head of the army, Head of the Navy, Head of the Air-Force, Head of State in Exile, The Head of the National Bank, the Head of the Religiosia Mafia, Ex Foreign Minister, Ex Prime Minister,......

No country in it's right mind would allow such a flight!!

You are obviously implying that I am a liar or what is even worse that my mother is. Listen up dude for I wont repeat ! General was my mother's personal friend , not very close lately but they knew eachother. You know how life goes right ? today you are best friends with somebody tomorrow not very much so.

The state didnt stop on April 10th 2010 , to tell you more when the stock market opened on monday nothing really happened , polish zloty didnt go down a bit. was it priced in? I dont know , I expected more vital reaction but i didnt come. Weird , I know , one of many weird things concerning this occurence. Prime minister is still alive , so is the whole government . Army was kind of weakened but this highranking officers where on their way out anyway. Look this up : Military Casa plane in Poland in 2009 , left much more air force officers dead. Connected , must be . how? I dont know. Regarding the clergy. Archbishop of Cracow , Warsaw werent on this plane and they really pull the strings in this mafia operation. I repeat the state didnt stop and regarding packing all this people into one plane was illegal and we had a Bill forbidding it when it happened. Why it happened than , still I dont know. Maybe you can help , you seem like a pretty sharp guy , but insulting only person with legitimate will to really get this thing debunked wont get you anywhere. Are you going to conribute to this research in some productive way or you are fixed on searching dishonesty in aplace where its nonexistant . Is a bigger picture unfolding before our eyes ? Lets try to connect the dots . In my opinion russian and polish authorities are in bed together on this thing. No one heard any charges despite a fucking mess all around. All rules and procedures were broken , they gave the investigation to the russians despite the fact that it obviously should have been conducted in Poland. Chicago Convention is a legal base they are working on . MEP , international avionautic commitee based in Moscow was responsible for the formal report. Wreckage is allegedly still in Smolensk , rotting under the russian sky without any sheleter. Access to it was very easy according to MSM so even a regular dude like you could have approached it and take some piece as a souvenir

Actually I Know somebody that died on this plane , to be more precise he was my mothe's friend , commander of representantion unit of polish army Kazimierz Gilarski. He was real and he is said to have died on April 10th 2010 , his widow confirms.

Kaczynski Brothers were real twins , they starred in the movie from 1962 " o dwoch takich co ukradli ksiezyc " They have been around in public for 30 years plus my friend's aunt used to work Maria Kaczynska their mother. She is still around. I put my credibility on them not beeing Vicsims, It makes all this even weirder.

just for the record it was nonhocapito (me) not hoi.polloi who wrote the piece you are responding to here (It was probably better written than my usual so I take this error of yours as a flattering thing, given Hoi's eloquence )

And OK, I take for true your statement about the Kaczynski Brothers, they were real and well known to the polish people. This does not exclude that they might have faked the death of only one of them, allowing them to still walk around and be in power, actually probably boosting the career of the remaining brother because of the "loss he suffered".

I will ignore your other statement that your mother knew someone on the plane. We read this statement too much on this forum and you must know it makes you immediately unpopular for the long history of pretend friends of friends of victims we had here, who aren't capable of convincing anyone. Sure it is not that easy to "prove" these things, which is all the more reason to leave them off the table. You must understand that we cannot give any special value to such things. Your mother knew someone? These are just words. Better skip this part for the time being. I would advice you not to get too upset about it either.... We will not trust you only because you get pissed! We will trust you less, actually. Nothing personal, my friend.

Brianv provided us the astonishing, mind-boggling list of passengers of that plane. Even without going into the security protocols that would never allow such flights, there is the issue that it is probably impossible for all these busy people to be all available at the same time of the day. Only because of their many obligations, they would certainly have to take different planes. Even more so because there are many airports in Poland, and I doubt all these people lived in the same location, no? I am still with the utter impossibility that such flight ever took off.

Anyway: could you go through the list and tell us how many of the names actually ring a bell with the polish people, are actually "known"? Do not take at face value what is being said about them since after the crash, obviously: but try to go back in time before the accident.

The bit about Walesa and his enemies is interesting, but in terms of "secret societies", or masonic alliances, or foreign control... what powers do you think are behind these opposite formations or individuals (if "opposite" has any meaning left)? Is there still a Russian vs. the "West" kind of secret divider in the country?

Actually I Know somebody that died on this plane , to be more precise he was my mothe's friend , commander of representantion unit of polish army Kazimierz Gilarski. He was real and he is said to have died on April 10th 2010 , his widow confirms.

Kaczynski Brothers were real twins , they starred in the movie from 1962 " o dwoch takich co ukradli ksiezyc " They have been around in public for 30 years plus my friend's aunt used to work Maria Kaczynska their mother. She is still around. I put my credibility on them not beeing Vicsims, It makes all this even weirder.

just for the record it was nonhocapito (me) not hoi.polloi who wrote the piece you are responding to here (It was probably better written than my usual so I take this error of yours as a flattering thing, given Hoi's eloquence )

And OK, I take for true your statement about the Kaczynski Brothers, they were real and well known to the polish people. This does not exclude that they might have faked the death of only one of them, allowing them to still walk around and be in power, actually probably boosting the career of the remaining brother because of the loss he suffered.

I will ignore your other statement that your mother knew someone on the plane. We read this statement too much on this forum and you must know it makes you immediately unpopular for the long history of pretend friends of friends of victims we had here, who aren't capable of convincing anyone. Sure it is not that easy to "prove" these things, which is all the more reason to leave them off the table. You must understand that we cannot give any special value to such things. Your mother knew someone? These are just words. Better skip this part for the time being. I would advice you not to get too upset about it either.... We will not trust you only because you get pissed! We will trust you less, actually. Nothing personal, my friend.

Brianv provided us the astonishing, mind-boggling list of passengers of that plane. Even without going into the security protocols that would never allow such flights, there is the issue that it is probably impossible for all these busy people to be all available at the same time of the day. Only because of their many obligations, they would certainly have to take different planes. Even more so because there are many airports in Poland, and I doubt all these people lived in the same location, no? I am still with the utter impossibility that such flight ever took off.

Anyway: could you go through the list and tell us how many of the names actually ring a bell with the polish people, are actually "known"? Do not take at face value what is being said about them since after the crash, obviously: but try to go back in time before the accident.

The bit about Walesa and his enemies is interesting, but in terms of "secret societies", or masonic alliances, or foreign control... what powers do you think are behind these opposite formations or individuals? Is there still a Russian vs. the "West" kind of secret divider in the country?

All right

I will leave alone personal knowledge of somebody in any future discussion unless directly asked about it . Sorry for mistaking you for somebody else even as respectful as hoi.polloi. When I said about about Walesa being a puppet I was only refering to him being a Secret Colaborator which is aformal term used for Sluzba Bezpieczenstwa assets. Walesa was a secret police agent and he even admitted it in the 90ties on some occasion. I will look it up later and be more specific. Than he tried to spin it saying he just was playing them in order to achieve more for the cause. Lately he denied it outrightly . Walesa playing SB is like a joke , but its only my oppinion. Who was behind communist Poland secret police? they were taking orders from Moscow you can consider it foreign control. Jaroslaw Kaczynski indeed saw his carrer boosted and almost won the presidential election last year . In todays Poland I think there are 2 main camps. One camp takes orders from Germany , France which are the powers in charge of EU. Current government and parliamentary majority , plus SLD which is post communust party belong to this camp. Second camp is servile to USA , Kaczynski brothers are in this camp. It really doesnt have to mean much because Radoslaw Sikorski is foreign minister now , and was a defence minister in the previous cabinet. Jaroslaw Kaczynski's cabinet , in one time we had twin brothers as a prime minister and as a president. Sikorski is a Neocon he founded New Atlantic Initiative which later merged with American Enterprise Institute . He was an Oxford student and a Bullingdon's secret society member. Only one from Eastern Europe in all its history i think. He accepted british citizenship and was a "journalist" in Afghanistan during the war with soviets. In my opinion he was/is a British Agent. He is married to Ann Applebaum from Washington Post a zionist journalist and a writer. He was a key figure in these both supposedly hostile governments. Plus when Radek was 25 or 24 , served as a personal adviser and assistant to Rupert Murdoch when he was to decide what media otlets to buy to start brainwashing us What people from the list ring the bell for me? Wow

Lets go:

Janusz Kurtyka - national remeberence institute , Kazimierz Gilewski , Wasserman - he was very famous member of parliamentary commisions starting at least from 2002 , Gosieswki - funny , little dude , know him at least for 7 years , Jaruga Nowacka - feminist , very active with all this pink/rainbow stuff at least 7 years. I will print the list and will go on 5 min

gen Błasik - he was all over MSM when casa fell in 2009 , gen . Gagor - chief of stuff , saw him on MSM on many occasions through the years , Grazyna Gęsicka - european funds minister in Kaczynski's cabinet saw her on MSM at least in 2006 , Ryszard Kaczorowski - president in exile in London , heard about him around 20 years ago when he was part of history class in elementary school after 1989 of course , Sebastian Karpiniuk - typical aparatchik kind of guy pretty present on MSM , he was a face of a bill considering taking away finanial privilages of living communist cignitaries i think it was 2008 , Janusz Kochanowski - civil rights guy made a target of the press once for not working only nordic walking in Lazienki Park 2008 at least , Natali- Swiat - was a face of PIS ( kaczynksi party , main opposition now) PR campaign called Kaczynski's angel at least 2009 , piotr nurowski , chief of polish olimpic commitee very visible during Beijing and Vancouver the co-fuonder of Polsat Tv one of main MSM outlets at least 10 years , Maciej Płażynśki - former Sejm Marschall ( speaker ) and co-founder of Platforma Obywatelska , now rulling party , removed by Tusk , now PM , at least 2000 , andrzej Przewoznik - INR guy , very vocal about Katyn and communist crimes ate least 2005 , Krzysztof Putra - had a really big , old style , red neck moustache at least 2005 , Skrzypek - central bank head , at least 2006 when he replaced Balcerowicz foreign MSM made an ado about it but kaczynski called Basel or DC / IMF and calmed everybody dowm , Szczygło - head of BBN , at least 2006 , Szmajdzinski - at least 15 years , guy responsible for buying F-16 fleet in 2005 , big news , Chirac got pissed , Szymanek - Deresz - at least 15 years , pretty lady thats why stuck in my mind , Anna Walentynowicz - mentioned her before , SOLIDARITY real founder at lkeast 15 years ,

This was a very big story in Chicago. Most of the local coverage centered around sculptor Wojeciech Seweryn. Ironically, instead of 3000 vicsims, perhaps salted with 'real' celebrities for extra impact, everyone on this plane was supposedly notable. I know nothing about Katyn or the Polish American community in Chicago, I just live here.

The plane crash in Russia that killed the Polish president and nearly 100 other political, military and religious leaders hit Chicago's sizable Polish community particularly hard Saturday.

On board was Chicago artist Wojciech Seweryn, who dedicated most of his adult life to remembering the thousands of Polish victims shot and buried in a mass grave by Soviet secret police in 1940. Among them was Seweryn's father, who held him in a Polish hospital the day he was born and then never saw him again.