Verno wrote on Oct 17, 2013, 14:19:When I said you were the last person I would listen to about this I was being serious. I'm done indulging you on subjects you clearly have no actual knowledge of yet somehow have formed strong opinions that aren't open to logic, reasoned debate or discussion. I am very patient but everyone has limits and mine is "/eyeroll you don't need science to realize a 3 year old is barely developed. 1+1 still equals 2."

How many studies do you need that say headstart is a failure before you believe it? The proof is there, it's not what you want to hear so you dismiss it outright.

The internet is full of them. but herp derp "Trollin you're wrong lalalala"

Verno wrote on Oct 17, 2013, 14:19:When I said you were the last person I would listen to about this I was being serious. I'm done indulging you on subjects you clearly have no actual knowledge of yet somehow have formed strong opinions that aren't open to logic, reasoned debate or discussion. I am very patient but everyone has limits and mine is "/eyeroll you don't need science to realize a 3 year old is barely developed. 1+1 still equals 2."

Did you see his attempt at a lecture about parents and morality last week? If you had I think you would have dismissed him alot sooner. It is one of the worst things I've seen on the internet.

Verno wrote on Oct 17, 2013, 14:19:When I said you were the last person I would listen to about this I was being serious. I'm done indulging you on subjects you clearly have no actual knowledge of yet somehow have formed strong opinions that aren't open to logic, reasoned debate or discussion. I am very patient but everyone has limits and mine is "/eyeroll you don't need science to realize a 3 year old is barely developed. 1+1 still equals 2."

Did you see his attempt at a lecture about parents and morality last week? If you had I think you would have dismissed him alot sooner. It is one of the worst things I've seen on the internet.

Verno wrote on Oct 17, 2013, 14:19:When I said you were the last person I would listen to about this I was being serious. I'm done indulging you on subjects you clearly have no actual knowledge of yet somehow have formed strong opinions that aren't open to logic, reasoned debate or discussion. I am very patient but everyone has limits and mine is "/eyeroll you don't need science to realize a 3 year old is barely developed. 1+1 still equals 2."

Did you see his attempt at a lecture about parents and morality last week? If you had I think you would have dismissed him alot sooner. It is one of the worst things I've seen on the internet.

When I said you were the last person I would listen to about this I was being serious. I'm done indulging you on subjects you clearly have no actual knowledge of yet somehow have formed strong opinions that aren't open to logic, reasoned debate or discussion. I am very patient but everyone has limits and mine is "/eyeroll you don't need science to realize a 3 year old is barely developed. 1+1 still equals 2."

RollinThundr wrote on Oct 17, 2013, 13:39:No one said there was a single fix, I think a great start would be removing all the programs that have been proven to be failures and use that money else where doncha think? Headstart would be one imo.

After displaying such profound ignorance about early childhood development you are about the last person I would listen to on this subject. Headstart is conceptually a fine program with modest but appreciable results. I don't care where it originated from. Its results need careful study before we do anything with it, not a rush to judgment from people whose sole concern is partisan bullshit and reinforcing their own opinions.

Alot of things are sound conceptually, Head start doesn't work, when you even have senior Obama advisers admitting it's pretty much a low income job program what more do you want? There was an article in Time about it awhile back, I can't remember what issue, (United States of Texas I think was the cover image) where an anonymous White House adviser admitted as such. Along with studies of the program on the government's office of planning, reseach and evaluation website that show how much of a failure it is.

How bout instead of funding worthless shit we fund programs that actually do something? And again this is just one single tiny example of years of wasted tax payer dollars, but hey lets have government control healthcare too. And in 10 years when that's also a total failure if we're still around to begin with, perhaps some people will wake up that more government is never the fucking proper answer to anything.

RollinThundr wrote on Oct 17, 2013, 13:39:No one said there was a single fix, I think a great start would be removing all the programs that have been proven to be failures and use that money else where doncha think? Headstart would be one imo.

After displaying such profound ignorance about early childhood development you are about the last person I would listen to on this subject. Headstart is conceptually a fine program with modest but appreciable results. I don't care where it originated from. Its results need careful study before we do anything with it, not a rush to judgment from people whose sole concern is partisan bullshit and reinforcing their own opinions.

RollinThundr wrote on Oct 17, 2013, 12:20:/eyeroll you don't need science to realize a 3 year old is barely developed. 1+1 still equals 2. The whole idea of headstart is to prepare these kids for school. It doesn't, instead it's actually essentially a jobs program for low income areas. Most 3 year olds aren't going to remember two to three years later, they're barely out of the damn crib at that age. Much like Global warming or what do they call themselves now? Climatologist or what the fuck ever?

You obviously have no kids. Childhood learning is critical to long term development - social-emotional, self-regulation, oral language, early literacy & mathematical development are all heavily impacted by it. Do some non-partisan reading on the subject, early childhood development and schooling has been linked repeatedly in definitive studies (Early Years Study I-III, Strong Start, OECD, etc) to better long term developmental outcomes like health, employment and well-being throughout the life course. 3 year olds retain quite a bit, if they didn't we wouldn't start teaching them critical life skills in that stage. If you want to make a cogent argument against Headstart then it should be about its sustainability and the social problems some studies have reported that they face. Either way though killing headstart doesn't solve any problems, not the deficit nor the education system, it's just more partisan bickering because of its source.

There is no simple fix for education. Many problems are as much social and cultural as they are with the curriculum and teachers. The huge wealth disparity in the country doesn't help either. We need better quality teachers but we won't get them without increasing the pay structures. The problem with that is that people inherently try to game the system, look at health care in the UK when they tried to create financial incentives for everything, it was a huge mess and people just gamed the system and results were arguably worse.

No one said there was a single fix, I think a great start would be removing all the programs that have been proven to be failures and use that money else where doncha think? Headstart would be one imo.

The problem with the UK is it's a fucking nanny state to begin with, same with Australia. We know people are selfish it's human nature, if you devise a system that easily allows them to live off the tit of everyone else and not work, do you think people will go find work? Let's be honest here.

RollinThundr wrote on Oct 17, 2013, 12:20:/eyeroll you don't need science to realize a 3 year old is barely developed. 1+1 still equals 2. The whole idea of headstart is to prepare these kids for school. It doesn't, instead it's actually essentially a jobs program for low income areas. Most 3 year olds aren't going to remember two to three years later, they're barely out of the damn crib at that age. Much like Global warming or what do they call themselves now? Climatologist or what the fuck ever?

You obviously have no kids. Childhood learning is critical to long term development - social-emotional, self-regulation, oral language, early literacy & mathematical development are all heavily impacted by it. Do some non-partisan reading on the subject, early childhood development and schooling has been linked repeatedly in definitive studies (Early Years Study I-III, Strong Start, OECD, etc) to better long term developmental outcomes like health, employment and well-being throughout the life course. 3 year olds retain quite a bit, if they didn't we wouldn't start teaching them critical life skills in that stage. If you want to make a cogent argument against Headstart then it should be about its sustainability and the social problems some studies have reported that they face. Either way though killing headstart doesn't solve any problems, not the deficit nor the education system, it's just more partisan bickering because of its source.

There is no simple fix for education. Many problems are as much social and cultural as they are with the curriculum and teachers. The huge wealth disparity in the country doesn't help either. We need better quality teachers but we won't get them without increasing the pay structures. The problem with that is that people inherently try to game the system, look at health care in the UK when they tried to create financial incentives for everything, it was a huge mess and people just gamed the system and results were arguably worse.

RollinThundr wrote on Oct 17, 2013, 11:48:You'd think it would be common sense, 3 year olds are barely developed. c'mon how much scientific "proof" do you need to know that already? Headstart is a a total failure has been since day 1.

Common sense != science. Lots of things that people have considered to be common sense have turned out to be misconceptions. And, no, it's not a total failure. It has produced good results, but those results haven't been maintained in later grades. I'd like to actually find out why, rather than go with your hunch about 3 year olds. That's how we make real progress. We do science. That's why we're having this conversation on the freaking internet rather than via Pony Express.

RollinThundr wrote on Oct 17, 2013, 11:48:I agree there's good teachers and bad, and I'm sure it varies from place to place, sadly the town I work for, I can count on one hand from a pool of 5 schools, from grammar to HS, the amount of actual good teachers that actually care about the kids learning something.

I'm with you on that, actually evaluating teachers on their abilities, however I have doubts any teacher's union would ever allow it. They have that protection, much like most city town workers have that same protection just a different union. That's why anytime you drive through a construction site there's 1 guy working and 5 standing around playing pocket pool.

If we can come up with good ways to objectively evaluate teachers, I'll be fighting to make the unions play ball or GTFO too.

I know some pretty dedicated teachers, and while people like to portray it as them babysitting for 9 months out of the year, these people work hard and for long hours, and then work more during the summer break too. That alone doesn't necessarily make them good teachers, and I'm sure there are plenty that just phone it in too. I don't like that the lousy ones get protected by the system, which is why we need to come up with a way of weeding them out without kicking out good ones as well. I think that should be one of our top priorities in education.

/eyeroll you don't need science to realize a 3 year old is barely developed. 1+1 still equals 2. The whole idea of headstart is to prepare these kids for school. It doesn't, instead it's actually essentially a jobs program for low income areas. Most 3 year olds aren't going to remember two to three years later, they're barely out of the damn crib at that age. Much like Global warming or what do they call themselves now? Climatologist or what the fuck ever?

Prez wrote on Oct 16, 2013, 17:56:While I admire the strength of conviction of these men, they are purely idealists, not great leaders. A leader understands he has to give something in order to get something; how to compromise and when to stand your ground and when to pack it in and live to fight another day. Uncompromising men are often easier to admire than compromising men, but it is the compromising ones that get things done for the general welfare of the people. They also know how to separate personal religious values from all-encompassing legislation that affects the whole nation. They do not try to legislate their personal moral code upon everyone as they understand that not everyone believes as they do but everyone still has the same right of pursuit of their own happiness.

Well said Prez. Look at what this latest fiasco has cost us. Who came out looking worse? Most polls say the GOP. What was achieved? Nothing. A lot of money and time wasted, not to mention political capital and public opinion.

Yeah it's a shame the liberal media won't actually blame Obama for anything. That's why the public perception is "congress' fault" Obama's just as much at fault, he's proven he's a terrible leader and unwilling to work with the other guys, in the same breath blaming the other guys for not compromising. They're both guilty.

The Dems had already compromised to a CR to fund at below Ryan plan levels. Boehner already agreed to that, but went back on it after he couldn't get the TP to go along. The TP decided that if they can't get what they want, they'll try to force a default and wreck the economy. It's hostage-taking 101. You don't deal with hostage-takers. You keep the pressure on them until you find a way to put a bullet in them without killing the hostages or until they give up. The saner parts of the GOP managed to get enough control to give up for now.

Yeah I'm sure the GOP just wants to have us default again for the sake of it.

There have been multiple proposals sent to Reid to have the senate vote on. There have been zero votes on any of them.

The Senate has been trying to enter budget conference with the House since March. They've been rejected 21 times because this has been the TP plan all along. It wasn't even a secret plan. The crap they want is not going to happen. We've already had that fight during the last election campaign. Romney said defunding Obamacare was the first thing he'd do if elected. He lost. They need to deal with that and move on, not hold our fucking economy hostage. They've now managed to turn even a lot of Republicans against them.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell (I think...)

RollinThundr wrote on Oct 17, 2013, 11:48:You'd think it would be common sense, 3 year olds are barely developed. c'mon how much scientific "proof" do you need to know that already? Headstart is a a total failure has been since day 1.

Common sense != science. Lots of things that people have considered to be common sense have turned out to be misconceptions. And, no, it's not a total failure. It has produced good results, but those results haven't been maintained in later grades. I'd like to actually find out why, rather than go with your hunch about 3 year olds. That's how we make real progress. We do science. That's why we're having this conversation on the freaking internet rather than via Pony Express.

RollinThundr wrote on Oct 17, 2013, 11:48:I agree there's good teachers and bad, and I'm sure it varies from place to place, sadly the town I work for, I can count on one hand from a pool of 5 schools, from grammar to HS, the amount of actual good teachers that actually care about the kids learning something.

I'm with you on that, actually evaluating teachers on their abilities, however I have doubts any teacher's union would ever allow it. They have that protection, much like most city town workers have that same protection just a different union. That's why anytime you drive through a construction site there's 1 guy working and 5 standing around playing pocket pool.

If we can come up with good ways to objectively evaluate teachers, I'll be fighting to make the unions play ball or GTFO too.

I know some pretty dedicated teachers, and while people like to portray it as them babysitting for 9 months out of the year, these people work hard and for long hours, and then work more during the summer break too. That alone doesn't necessarily make them good teachers, and I'm sure there are plenty that just phone it in too. I don't like that the lousy ones get protected by the system, which is why we need to come up with a way of weeding them out without kicking out good ones as well. I think that should be one of our top priorities in education.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell (I think...)

Prez wrote on Oct 16, 2013, 17:56:While I admire the strength of conviction of these men, they are purely idealists, not great leaders. A leader understands he has to give something in order to get something; how to compromise and when to stand your ground and when to pack it in and live to fight another day. Uncompromising men are often easier to admire than compromising men, but it is the compromising ones that get things done for the general welfare of the people. They also know how to separate personal religious values from all-encompassing legislation that affects the whole nation. They do not try to legislate their personal moral code upon everyone as they understand that not everyone believes as they do but everyone still has the same right of pursuit of their own happiness.

Well said Prez. Look at what this latest fiasco has cost us. Who came out looking worse? Most polls say the GOP. What was achieved? Nothing. A lot of money and time wasted, not to mention political capital and public opinion.

Yeah it's a shame the liberal media won't actually blame Obama for anything. That's why the public perception is "congress' fault" Obama's just as much at fault, he's proven he's a terrible leader and unwilling to work with the other guys, in the same breath blaming the other guys for not compromising. They're both guilty.

The Dems had already compromised to a CR to fund at below Ryan plan levels. Boehner already agreed to that, but went back on it after he couldn't get the TP to go along. The TP decided that if they can't get what they want, they'll try to force a default and wreck the economy. It's hostage-taking 101. You don't deal with hostage-takers. You keep the pressure on them until you find a way to put a bullet in them without killing the hostages or until they give up. The saner parts of the GOP managed to get enough control to give up for now.

Yeah I'm sure the GOP just wants to have us default again for the sake of it.

There have been multiple proposals sent to Reid to have the senate vote on. There have been zero votes on any of them.

Prez wrote on Oct 16, 2013, 17:56:While I admire the strength of conviction of these men, they are purely idealists, not great leaders. A leader understands he has to give something in order to get something; how to compromise and when to stand your ground and when to pack it in and live to fight another day. Uncompromising men are often easier to admire than compromising men, but it is the compromising ones that get things done for the general welfare of the people. They also know how to separate personal religious values from all-encompassing legislation that affects the whole nation. They do not try to legislate their personal moral code upon everyone as they understand that not everyone believes as they do but everyone still has the same right of pursuit of their own happiness.

Well said Prez. Look at what this latest fiasco has cost us. Who came out looking worse? Most polls say the GOP. What was achieved? Nothing. A lot of money and time wasted, not to mention political capital and public opinion.

Yeah it's a shame the liberal media won't actually blame Obama for anything. That's why the public perception is "congress' fault" Obama's just as much at fault, he's proven he's a terrible leader and unwilling to work with the other guys, in the same breath blaming the other guys for not compromising. They're both guilty.

The Dems had already compromised to a CR to fund at below Ryan plan levels. Boehner already agreed to that, but went back on it after he couldn't get the TP to go along. The TP decided that if they can't get what they want, they'll try to force a default and wreck the economy. It's hostage-taking 101. You don't deal with hostage-takers. You keep the pressure on them until you find a way to put a bullet in them without killing the hostages or until they give up. The saner parts of the GOP managed to get enough control to give up for now.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell (I think...)

RollinThundr wrote on Oct 16, 2013, 22:56:well said. I actually agree with this. So for example, something like the failure that is the headstart program you would be alright finding a better solution then?

I'd be in favor of figuring out why the early gains from the program seem to be lost in later grades, and then doing something to fix that. Something is being done right to get those gains to begin with. Something is being done wrong to lose them. We've been falling behind other countries for decades now. We really can't afford to let our education system get worse.

Maybe it's because 3 year olds have this retention problem at that age. Which makes sense to begin with. they're 3 year olds ffs barely even cognitive or developed. Headstart is a total waste of money.

Well, your citations and scientific rigor have me convinced...

RollinThundr wrote on Oct 17, 2013, 08:35:Our education system isn't going to get much better no matter how much money you throw at it. Take it from someone who deals with a school system and it's administration almost daily, it's all political, most of these teachers could care less about actually teaching these kids anything but they love their union benies.

For an example, the school system wanting to waste 100 grand on a new network just so they can have sole control over it rather than use the infrastructure the town build for them already, only because they don't want to play ball and adhere to any sort of security when it comes to said network.

And I'm sure it happens everywhere not just small Mass towns. The Department of Education is prolly another huge waste of money we could trim down majorly.

I'm in favor of finding ways to evaluate teachers and make them more accountable. Most of the ways I've heard from both sides are pretty lacking though. I've had some really lousy teachers before, and I've had some really good ones. Most were somewhere in between. We need ways to make these determinations that won't be shooting ourselves in the foot. I don't think we have those ways yet. Tests alone don't cut it.

You'd think it would be common sense, 3 year olds are barely developed. c'mon how much scientific "proof" do you need to know that already? Headstart is a a total failure has been since day 1.

I agree there's good teachers and bad, and I'm sure it varies from place to place, sadly the town I work for, I can count on one hand from a pool of 5 schools, from grammar to HS, the amount of actual good teachers that actually care about the kids learning something.

I'm with you on that, actually evaluating teachers on their abilities, however I have doubts any teacher's union would ever allow it. They have that protection, much like most city town workers have that same protection just a different union. That's why anytime you drive through a construction site there's 1 guy working and 5 standing around playing pocket pool.

RollinThundr wrote on Oct 17, 2013, 11:36:/shrug It's pretty damn obvious honestly. I've also in my life time have never seen a president trash the US Constitution essentially in both actions and words and get cheers for it.