Those quotes sound to me as more of an argument to get proper training and affiliation if you want to help out.

If you're serving a government agency or a non-governmental organization it's a good idea to check the state of liability insurance, waivers, etc. For those who get angry and cry about "elitism" when they can't just show up with their HT at the spur of the moment and be put to work, it's one more reason why you need training even if you "know" that you know it all. Their insurance terms might require you to attend training anyway.

It could be the same with using dangerous machinery; you might be a chainsaw god, but if some local church asks for volunteers to help clear trees from peoples' yards after a hurricane, they could still turn you away if you don't have a document showing that you've been certified as a sawyer by the US Forest Service. It's called "cover your backside", to say it politely, and with the current lawyer surplus in the US it's easy to be sued.

The EMCOMMers get very upset when anyone questions their portion of the hobby as not being the whole reason for ham radio.

I haven't noticed, but I have noticed that they get animated - sometimes upset - if people cause QRM to emergency communications. They tend to have that in common with most people, including non-hams and emergency workers actually. "SEELONCE DISTRESS!" Instead, it seems to me that it's the few, the proud, vocal anti-emcomm activists online who seem to subscribe to the "my niche should be the only niche of amateur radio" mindset.

For the populations and governments who have given us these frequencies to play with, however, EMCOMM is the perhaps biggest reason why we have them. It's not the only reason - technological development, inspiring the engineers of the future, international goodwill and friendship also count, but the reason the ARRL lobbyists beat that drum is because it's what's nearest to the heart of the voters and politicians.

Not directly, I think. People who only get a license for emergencies don't tend join the League, I think. In fact the ARRL's emergency managers encourage those people to be more active on the radio. Indirectly though, if hams think the ARRL are doing a good job with lobbying, in addition to QST, LotW, etc. they'd be more likely to join, right?

Haiti lacks amateur radio operators - it tends to be a rich peoples' hobby in many parts of the world. In some parts of the world you also have to be a "friend of the regime" to get a license. Interestingly, in Haiti it seems the Internet kept up better than regular phone services did, and the lack of amateurs meant amateurs only could play a limited role in the initial phase.

In the typical town, multiple communications systems would have to go down before ARES became relevant. The primary cellular system, the back-up cellular system

I don't think any ARES group is dimensioned to take over the whole town's internal and external communications needs at the same time. But it might not take much of a disaster for a communications emergency to occur. For example, a wayward backhoe happening at the same time as a tree falling in the forest could take out the two redundant communications links out of the town. Even a technologically advanced nation like Norway, with a far more robust power distribution system than the US/Canada, was effectively cut in half by such an event last year.

If something like that happened, it could still be possible to call inside the town, and the LE/FD/EMS repeaters might work, but the ARES group might have to handle traffic out of and into town. Perhaps there is an available satellite link, but the amateurs work on health and welfare traffic, and at the same time serve as a backup in case the satellite becomes unavailable for official traffic.

With complex systems, even something like a software error in a switch could cause cascading failures. It has happened both internally in institutions like hospitals, or in larger geographical areas.

So ARES could become relevant with just a single failure. Also amateur radio emergency response is more than ARES; Skywarn and CERT would be relevant even without an actual communications emergency.

Portable cell towers could take some time to move into location. If roads are washed out, it could take days. As for the repeaters and base stations, there are limits to their battery backups and generators are expensive, and a seismic or weather event that takes out the primary repeater could well take out the secondary at the same time. They might not be destroyed, but something like the microwave link antennas being out of alignment.

If mobile command posts and simplex don't work, few things will work at all. But perhaps something like NVIS could still work. Or modulated light. And UHF simplex isn't very good for communications over longer distances.

If your area doesn't have these, you should probably spend your time at government meetings trying to get them then worrying about standing on the side of the road with an HT during an ARES marathon race.

If we've learned anything about communications emergencies, it's that even fail-safe systems can fail, and that even though not every emergency is the "end of the world as we know it" where everything fails, even a single system failure could cause an emergency.

OK, I knew this might start a firestorm, but I only saw one person really fall off the edge of logic and sanity.So I will reply to his points first and try to explain what I meant.

First is the WACKER mentality. This applies first and for most to the ones that are in EMCOMM for the reasons of any sort of self praise, or trying to receive recognition for their actions. That is the number one hang I have. This ain't suppose to be about you, and the minute you make it about you, blazing orange vest or not, and you are doing something outside the lines as far as I am concerned. Second is if you have the MARS/CAP mod done on your radio so you can talk to the police "just in case" you also are firmly standing in the circle of WACKERDOM. Buy a cell phone. Even a cell phone with no service contract that is not in service will allow you to call 911. Keying up on the local police repeater is never needed. And I can say with 100% absolute certainty, mostly because I have had the conversation with a number of police dispatchers, fire dispatchers and fire chiefs (BTW I work on radios professionally and deal with these folks daily) they all said the same thing. CALL 911. And that was referencing a commercial radio tech calling in an incident, let alone a ham operator popping in on the public safety repeater.

Minnesota has migrated over to a statewide digital trunked system for nearly all of it's public service radio. However, many of the counties maintain one analog channel for the express purpose of being able to 'interoperate' with hams in their counties in a disaster. I have not heard of any of these analog channels being used, and I do not encourage people to modify their gear so they can use them, either. Some of the current Chinese HT's out there can be used legally on both Part 90 and Part 97 systems, though, without modification, and in some places, ARES members have purchased them. Again, I don't see the need - we have ARES people assigned to the EOC's with their own radios, anyway. I think the whole 'WHACKER' thing is seriously overblown. Yes, I've seen a few, but only a few.

Most ARES volunteers are just people who want to be prepared, and want to be of service. At least around here, ARES does a lot more than just drill for disasters, they also work public service events, which is the real fun for most of us. Yes, I have two yellow vests that I use in parades, and a magnetic sign and yellow light I use for SKYWARN and some public service events. One of our local ARES members was recently the recipient of a Presidential Service Award for doing 5,000 hours of community service work - most of it via ham radio and public events like marathons and bike events. And he's only been a ham for a few years.

Second, regarding the spectrum. Here is the reason I made the comment I did, and I stand by it.2 Meters is a good band, don't get me wrong, but if it was pulled for commercial use, it would be WORTHLESS for analog voice communications. We have a large number of LID's that get on the ham bands and cuss, fart, swear and generally make an ass of themselves. Do you really believe that they would stay off the bands if they weren't allowed to be there. Yes in time, the FCC would bust them and they would be locked up. But imagine if all the 2 meter ham radios were dumped into garage sales, and bought by CBers. Consider that for a moment. Do you really believe that they wouldn't get on them and blab constantly? Are you that obtuse? No one would want that piece of spectrum for voice communications. And the 4 Mhz that's there isn't enough for much else.Broadband channels are 10 to 20 Mhz wide. So at best you could get a couple slow speed data paths out of it. So why bother? SO that is HOW sir.

What has that got to do with ARES? We have had a couple bad apples on the local repeaters, but when one of them started doing 'his thing' on the county-owned ARES repeater, he was soon invited to leave to town and hasn't returned. If that's what's going on in your area, perhaps you need to consider enforcement alternatives. FCC is responsive if you provide documentation. If the trustee of a repeater asks them not to use the repeater, FCC will back up the trustee every time.

Now, as far as the comments concerning the failure of public services and the spiral into anarchy. Again, obtuse is a good word. Hams continue to tout how important they were during Katrina. I actually had a chance to meet with a ham from down there that had deemed his house the secondary EOC for his county. Yes you read that right. He sat loud mouthed and literally pounding on the table as he complained that FEMA would not listen to the hams and what they had to say. I sat here in Ohio listening to the HF traffic, how bad it was. Bodies floating in the street, the whole thing, which was a blow by blow of the same thing I was watching on CNN and Fox News. So to my point.

Katrina hit, and then was gone, and civility went into the crapper and anarchy reigned supreme. If you weren't armed you got robbed. If a guy with a gun had no food, he took food from those that weren't armed. We saw the same thing in the LA riots. The have not's overpowered the have's and took by force from them. Do you somehow believe that your orange vest and local EMA ID will be enough to ward off the angry and hungry hoards? And you tell me I am not being realistic... REALLY?!?!?

The ham contribution in New Orleans was limited but real, and I listened to those HF nets, too. Outside of the New Orleans area, hams were busy for weeks afterward providing communications where they were needed. ARRL recruited volunteers from across the country to help. There are a lot of good stories from that event. I'm sorry you had to listen to some pinhead from Louisiana with a story to tell. He reminds me of a guy we met at a restaurant in Sulphur, LA some years ago. We all refer to him as 'Uncle Buck'. He had been absolutely everywhere and done everything, and was even a personal friend of the governor of Minnesota at the time (Jesse Ventura). The locals just hung on every word he had to say, as he spun his tales longer and wilder. I didn't know Uncle Buck had a ham ticket, but maybe he did.

Again, what's that got to do with ARES? I think I can assure you that your blowhard wasn't associated with, or under the control of, ARES. There were a lot of complaints that officials, and in particular the Red Cross, weren't using hams in the area due to red tape, and I think some of that was valid. But, HF conditions stunk very badly with a huge solar flare right at the same time, so our effectiveness was limited, too.

If you have to do so, cut fire lanes in wide enough to deal with fueling the generators. And remember that hammy repeaters are subject to the same failures. If the ham repeaters are working and the public safety repeaters are not, especially if the hammy repeaters are purchased by the EOC and public money. It would be in their best interest to simply take over the repeater, reprogram and retune it to the public safety band radios and go forward with public safety communications. Short sightedness of the EOC EMA director and public officials are not an excuse for ham radio to exist. That IS what you are saying without saying it.

Ham repeaters are analog. Public service radios are going digital. Good luck retuning the duplexers to the Part 90 frequencies on site, in a forest fire situation. No matter how much taxpayer money is spent on the commercial radio systems you apparently sell and service, you can't guarantee it won't fail. Out here, we have massively redundant systems - all new digital trunked systems. As recently as three weeks ago, flash floods took out bridges in the north part of the state, taking out the bridges that carry the optical fiber that ties it all together, leaving one fairly large city up there with no outside communications, no public service radio, no 911, etc... for about 12 hours. ARES stepped in and helped to provide outside comms. In less than 12 hours, they had replacement cell and digital radio towers in place, but for those few hours, ARES was 'it', and that's really what ARES' opportunity is - to hold down the fort until the cavalry arrives. It can take up to 72 hours for the Red Cross to get their comm gear in place - just ask 'em.

Now I can't speak for every ham in the area. As far as training, I have none specifically for ARES stuff.

There's your problem right there. If you had a slight amount of ARES training, you'd know where ARES fits and where it doesn't. We would welcome someone with your background, but all you know is governmental communications. ARES is much more.

I do hold several ICS certtifications, I am CERT trained, and happen to work in the public safety communications field. The folks that need to know who I am and what I bring to the table already do. If a situation arose that a person with my skill set was needed, make no mistake, I will have police cars and fire trucks in the driveway willing to drive me to where I need to get to to fix things. I have been called at 3 AM due to a system failure so I understand the need for reliable communications.

Let me say a couple other things here so everyone has a better idea of where I am coming from. We have a local ARES group complete with the every other week net where they use 'tactical call signs" which consist of the suffix of their call. Then are required to give there call in ITU phonetics ONLY. Of course, neither of which, according to the general council for the FCC is actually properly IDing. They parade around, have self deployed a number of times in the past. And continue to bring up the only time they ever "saved the day" in 1980 when a tornado blew down a repeater tower at a fire house and they counldn't communicate with the dispatch center because all the phones were out in about 4 square miles. A fireman ask if they would call dispatch for them and let them know what happened. This of course was before cell phones, multisite simulcast systems or even truly reliable consistent phone service. It's the only thing they have to talk about. And yet the are going to save the day. I guess this is personal perception, but just what do they bring to the table? A repeater that is housed in the same building, on the same tower as a number of the public safety repeaters? Same points of failure. Frequency changing ability? All the local PD and fire radios have more repeater pairs in them than there are ham repeaters in this and the surrounding counties? This is my personal perception, so someone please tell me what I am missing.

If they are 'self-deploying' they are not following ARES direction, or, the ARES leadership is seriously screwed up. That's one of the first rules you learn - ARES does not self-deploy. Now, I've heard recent charges of 'self-deployment'. We have one local county where the hams are trained to operate both the ham radios and also to assist by manning the Part 90 EM radios in a disaster. We had a recent FEMA drill where the hams deployed just as they were instructed to do by the Incident Commander (county official) and his deputy. Unfortunately, some of the county team leaders were not aware that the hams were involved, and when they showed up to their assigned stations with Part 90 radios in addition to their ham rigs, a stink was raised. This was quickly resolved by the Incident Commander, but it did leave the impression with some that ARES had done something wrong - which was not at all true. Overall, the drill was a great success - with hams establishing communications up and down the Mississippi River between the EOC's and St. Paul, in addition to shadowing key individuals and offloading their communications needs. That's a really big deal for people who've tried it. Instead of wasting their time trying to get a cellphone or radio to work, the official can just offload it to the ham next to him and let him figure it out.

OK, so let's say there's a disaster. The Red Cross opens a number of shelters in the area. The Salvation Army provides feeding facilities, clothing, blankets and emergency supplies. Many other VOAD groups assemble to provide a wide variety of assistance - I've got a list about a page long. Now, how many of your local police, fire, and public safety personnel are you going to assign to the Red Cross, Salvation Army, and all those VOAD groups to provide communications for them? I believe that number would be zero. Oh, these organizations should all have their own wide area mobile radio systems in place? I think the Lutheran Social Services would rather spend the money rebuilding people's homes than spend it on radios. Oh, they can use cellphones? In most cases, it seems that the disasters around here happen in the places with the worst cellphone coverage, and when there is cellphone coverage, it can't handle the traffic at all. After the Alabama tornadoes last year, hams 'rode shotgun' on all the relief agency vehicles operating north of Birmingham. Without them, those teams would have been venturing into areas with no communication and no way to call for help if needed. Did they handle any emergency traffic, no, but they sure made those relief teams feel safer.

The need for emergency comms goes beyond governmental systems and the Red Cross. There are many other legitimate players in disaster relief situations that don't have their own radios. In most places ARES is not well acquainted with those groups, and that should actually be a main focus - it's fruitful territory.

There are actually some individuals in ARES groups I've heard about who "self-activate", in the sense that they have standing orders from their served agency to show up at a particular place if an emergency happens. They would then help call in more volunteers if needed, or just go home if the emergency passes.

Nobody else should self-activate though. Those concerned already know who they are.

As for the Volunteer Organizations Active in Disasters, there could be some unmet needs there as you say. (Just be careful with one of the NVOAD members, namely the Scientology Volunteer Ministers who are actually there to prevent emergency workers from doing their jobs. If you have any insufferable whackers in your area perhaps encourage them to go help the Volunteer Ministers? "Yo dawg, I heard you like wearing yellow jackets while bothering emergency workers, so I'm here to wear a yellow vest while wearing a yellow jacket so you can be bothered while you're bothering people." )

Good points K0RGR. In Illinois the EMA's are tasked with coordination during disasters.During these times the Police, Fire and ESDA's are going to have their hands full mitigatingthe disaster. But as was stated there are many other organizations involved that needand use Amateur assistance. I live in Will county, Illinois (pop. over 600,000). There aremany redundant systems in use as well as a county specific Tactical InteroperabilityCommunications Plan that pretty much covers the public service end. ARES is involved withand works well with the EMA to provide comms services to other organizations.In your area if you have the proper relationship and MOU's between ARES and whicheveragency is responsible for disaster mitigation, you should have no problem providing a valuableand needed service.ART, N9AOP

Sure a lot of opinions. Much depends on where one lives. I'm in a rural area, our Emergency coordenator got over 3 million in em com grants, we got a fancy new trunked system for the Sheriff's and Fire department that will handle exactly 7 HT's at once, generators with their built in tanks and a couple repeaters that were put on a mountain that there would be about zero chance to get to during our long winters. Same for many generators during a bad storm and we get some where the plowed snow is taller than a full size blade.

The hams here are very much into emcomm, but we use our equipment for having regular conversations and fun in the mean time.

There is a huge need for orginized ham radio during a major disaster as well as the little things. I was able to copy two operators who reported forest fires started by lightning where there was no cell service, relayed several injury accidents, again no cell service and several other things this year. Nothing earth shaking, but ham worked.

There is always work such as in shelters and other things such as message handling, not glamorus, but needed.I have more than once used ham radio when the radio system for the SAR would not get out of many areas, the ham radio did.

Yes, you have the wanna be's, I wish I had a good Elmer close, but I do not, so I read and study all I can about how things work and have bought equipment to make and fix things (an keep spare wire, coax, fittings etc), I still have much to learn, but there are more than a few damaged pieces of equipment I could get back on the air if needed, make an antenna for any band.

If I were in the middle of Katrina, I'd worry much more about keeping my firearm working and having a good supply of ammo as you could call for help all day and never get an answer let alone help, but too many are too fast to poo poo amateur radio, it is more than useful in many but not all emergencys.In the mean time I learn, train, have ways to keep my equipment powered with no commercial electricity etc.It's a hobby and fun, but I also have what is needed to help if called apon. That is the secret to ham radio, have fun, use your equipment, train and then if something happens and you are needed, you are ready and can make a difference.

We don't all live in areas with 15 generator powered repeaters, fire stations everywhere equipped to the max etc. Much of America is rural and amateur radio could and does play an important part of any emergency as well as do the little things like help out during community events and smaller everyday emergencys.It's what you make of it and for you to fill in the gaps.

A lot of us live in areas where if a major earthquake etc happened, we would be on our own for quite some time and have limited emergency response, we plan on helping each other, it may be checking on old people who would freeze to death, need meds, you name it. The hams have planned for just such occurences. People helping people, ham radio will be a major asset to us. We don't all live in areas with lots of emergency equipment and quick help from neighboring agencies. There is a group of us who can operate for quite a while without the grid, even about 20 ranchers-farmers who know just about everyone who have formed a GMRS net with tranceivers with enough power to cover the area simplex. They will be checking on people and can call for help if needed. Who would respond, our neighbors. Being resourseful, we would find ways to help those who needed it to the best of our abilities.This is where emcoms will really work, not in the middle of New York city, but in middle America.

Sure a lot of opinions. Much depends on where one lives. I'm in a rural area, our Emergency coordenator got over 3 million in em com grants, we got a fancy new trunked system for the Sheriff's and Fire department that will handle exactly 7 HT's at once,

Your County is on the Idaho Cooperative Agencies Wireless Interoperable Network (ICAWIN) http://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=4742 and can handle much more than just 7 HT's. The County looks to have adequate talk-groups for its size and I'm sure has other capabilities available to them that you aren't aware of.

I have read all these posts and my mind is not changed. Simply because you passed a 35 question test does not make you an emergency responder. Ham radio is a HOBBY, much like model railroading. Years ago we had a CB React group approach the Dept and ask if we needed help at the 4th of July parade. The safety committee thought it was a great idea, let them do some traffic details to free us up for other things. I am not kidding when I tell you these guys showed up in force, if a car didn't have a lightbar on the roof it had lights on the dash, one car had the lightbar mounted inside the car on the rear backseat deck. We joked that was their undercover car. These guys were a riot. They called us on channel 9 for any little thing they saw, we spent more time chasing after their 'this one looks suspicious' calls then what we needed to be doing. After the parade we slapped them on back, told them what a great job they did, and thanked them with a donut and pepsi party afterward. After handing out our dept patches ( they all asked for one) and promising ride-alongs that would never happen we sent them on their way. The sad part was they had better light bars then our cars did So when you guys are being 'thanked' for your help just wonder how loud they are laughing at you when you leave My opinion, be you ARES, SKYWARN, or whatever decal you want to stick on your car you are ALL whackers in my book.GOD Bless

So what you're saying, Bart, is that a ham operator who sees an accident and reports it over his/her radio to get help is a whacker? Likewise a trained weatherspotter who sees a weather related incident and reports it to the skywarn/weather bureau is also a whacker?

I'm sorry, but I--and a lot of other incidental volunteers--don't agree with you. 73.

No , I'm not saying that. Anyone who comes upon an accident, ham or not should report the accident, be it by radio or cell phone. And no, a person who should see a funnel cloud should report it, by radio or cell. You are comparing apples to oranges as they say. What I am saying is memorizing the answers to 35 questions, mounting lights and antennas and decals all over your car does not make you anything more then what I remember dealing with at that 4th of July parade I mention. Question for you: can a non-ham be a whacker ?

....My opinion, be you ARES, SKYWARN, or whatever decal you want to stick on your car you are ALL whackers in my book.GOD Bless

Maybe I misunderstood what you meant, but it seemed you said that a person who has a single antenna on his car and a Skywarn sticker on his side window is a whacker. I have that, and I resent that innuendo. Even though it is true that I used to be a official of the local EMA and had a set of hidden strobes on my vehicle, when I retired from that the strobe unit was removed because I no longer had any use for them.

To your question, in my opinion, yes, ANYBODY could be a whacker. Re: the people you spoke of in your prior post. Not to denigrate CBers, but that IS what you were talking about, isn't it?

If I may... I am not currently signed up for ARES/RACES. I have had my technician's license for a whopping 7 days now. As I stated before, emergency comms is the primary reason I took up this hobby and I had planned on getting active ASAP. This thread has brought some things to my attention that I had not considered. It had not crossed my mind that I would not be welcomed if I choose to arm myself as I do every single other day of my life.

I will say this with absolutely no antipathy. I will respectfully decline to associate with any organization that would disarm me. I carry a gun 100% of the time that it is legal to do so. This includes work, shopping, driving, walking my dog and going to dinner. I would not consider showing up to a civil emergency without a gun any more than I would show up without boots, gloves and pants.

If that means I am unwelcome in volunteer organizations, I am saddened. I would like to volunteer and offer assistance when I can. I am the type of person who doesn't pass by accident scenes if no emergency crews are on site yet. I will help out a neighbor who's door is blocked by snow. I will pull a person out of the mud with my truck. I'm just that kind of person, but I'm also one who will entrust my security to others.[/i] [/i]

This fella flat out tells us his reason for getting his tech ticket, to volunteer, talk on a radio and carry a gun. Just imagine this potential whacker shooting some kid because he took an extra water bottle at the bike race. He continues to tell us he won't join an Ecomm group if he can't carry a gun, enough said ?

There might be a handful of Professional groups out there, but the whackers out number the good. And a special thanks to all who sent emails to my Yahoo email address. Your name calling and veiled threats reinforce my case.

That is not whet he is telling you at all. Read his post. He is telling you that he has taken responsibility for his own security as a matter of habit and right and that he is being told that he cannot exercise that right if he volunteers for ARES/RACES. Why would you say something like that which is obviously untrue, because it is posted right above, just to make a point an a website? That does not bolster your credibility.

Further, I am not seeing all these "whackers" that you keep talking about in ham radio. I think they may be a figment of your imagination.

That is not what he said. He said he carried before and does so where legal.

There are those, myself included, who see what is going on in the world today, recognize that a. the government has no duty to protect any individual citizen as the courts have repeatedly ruled, b. the government is incapable of doing so were they so required, and c. you and you alone are ultimately responsible for your personal safety and that of those who depend on you. In light of that one makes choices. Those choices include to not go to places where danger may exist, no matter how bad you want to see the newest Batman movie, what tools you will need to ensure your safety, and what persons or groups with which to associate with.

Not every one who makes that choice to be trained and to jump through the various regulatory hoops to be legally able to carry a firearm as there chosen tool is a whacker. For you to assume so is despicable. Why must you see evil where none exist?

You should consider that communications devices of what ever type are also tools used by terrorist. Perhaps it should be assumed you are a terrorist because you play with radios.

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