If it's going to be rimless with no shoulder you have to headspace on the case mouth and the rimmed reamers cut a taper large enough you have to go in deeper to get the diameter back so you can cut the case mouth step. It also can throw off the taper of you chamber slightly. Much easier to make a reamer. The reamers not hard to make, just tedious. I bought an indexer between back surgeries (second one wasn't planned) so once I'm moving around good again it should be even easier.

11-03-2012, 04:26 PM

1biggun

nice score on the indexer.

I have talked to guys who have made the 444 marlin rimless they used a standard 444 marlin reamer an then used a chucking reamer to remove the taper to work as a stop. most reamers ahve extra neck length to you will have to runthe reamer short or make our brass longer.

the 444???? will need a special reamer or need to be cut with a boring bar.

I think you can use 444 marlin dies however. i have made brass for it. you will need to likely inside ream it. it would be best to expand it straight with a arbor an then sixe it in the dies an then ream the neck area to a correct id.

when this thread was started there were no leverlution bullets avalaible so you were stuck with pistol bullets. The bullet length dictates the case length if you want to get as much capacity as possable. today thre are leverltution bullets avaliable IMIO they wlould be the best for feeding with there plastic tip as well as for veleocity etc.

If i were to retake up work on this project I would start witht he heavest 44 leverlution bullet an work back ward setting case length the allow the bullet to be seated at proper depth at a near mag length OAL loaded length. id make the reamer form the loaded round.

I have been thinking about this round a little more the last few months.Its occured to me that more caxe taper would benifit the it creatly for feeding an also to make it work in a some sort of standard round. I have been working on a 6.5x55 swede an it has a bigger case head. If 6.5 swede brass were used ( yea the cost goes up to make it) then you could have more taper in the round. american swede brass is a little undersized . european brass is closer to the claimed .080 case head it should have. At any rate it would give you a round with more taper. food for thought.

The ".416 Stealth." It's a Whisper type cartridge, made by sawing off a .308 case and using a .416 bullet. Overall length is same as a .223.

The available bullet selections are considerably different between the .429" and .416" sizes; most .429 bullets are basically .44 Magnum pistol bullets, which annoys the .444 Marlin guys. At subsonic velocities like the .416's designer talks about, a pistol bullet would seem to be a more appropriate choice for something intended to kill something besides paper; .416 bullets are usually heavy-wall stuff, designed to expand deep inside big game at 2000-2500fps.

Still, an interesting design...

11-16-2012, 02:16 PM

1biggun

A 41 CAL HAS BEEN DONE. IM NOT SURE HOW HE IS HOLDING THE BULLET THERE LOOKS TO BE A VERY SHORT NECK NOT GOING TO WORK WELL IN A AUTO LOADER . IS HE HEAD SPACING OFF THE THE CASE MOUTH OR THE WEIRD CRIMP/ SHOLDER NECK. IT LOOKS LIKE THERE MIGHT BE SOME TAPER ADDED IF SO A GOOD THING FOR FEEDING.

IN SUBSONIC WHY NOT JUST SHOOT LEAD?????? AN IF YOUR GOING TO SHOOT LEAD JUST USE A CAT .44 BULLET ( REALLY .429) ???????? i DONT SEE A REAL ADVANTAGE IN SUBSOINC WITH A 41 VS 44. 44 BULLET WITH MORE WEIGHT WILL HAVE MORE ENERGY AT SUBSONIC SPEEDS.

IM LOOKING AT A 9MM, 338 AN 35 BENCH REST OR BRX DOWN THE ROAD AFTER i GET THE 6MM AN OTHERS FIGURED OUT. THOS WWOULD ALLOW YOU TO HEAD SPACE OFF THE SHOULDER AN ALSO MAKE IT EASIER TO FEED AS THE BREACH HAS A LOT MORE CLEARANCE DUE TO IT BEING A BOTTLE NECK ROUND.

I FIRMY BELIEAVE A CUT DOWN 308 TYPE CASE IN AK IS A GOOD WAY TO GO FOR A LOT OF AK BASED WILD CATS. FINDING A MAG TO WORK AS IS IS GOING TO BE A REAL CHALLANGE IF NOT IMPOSSABLE. I HAVE BEEN PLAYIG WITH MAGS FOR THREE DAYS ON MY 6MM PROJECT ITS OBVIOUS THAT A HI CAP MAG WILL NEED MODS OF SOME SORT.

THE ISSUE IS THE BIGGER DIAMITER CASE RAISES THE CENTER LINE OF THE BULLET DOWN WHEN HELD UNDER THE LIPS. RASING THE BULLET OR MAG CAUSES ISSUES WITH CARRER CLERANCE AN ALSO CAUSE A LOT OF MOVMENT INTHE MAG AS THE CARRER RIDES BACK OVER THE ROUND. IN MY 6MM IM AFRAID IT WILL DEFORM THE SHARPER SHOULDER HAS IT COMES BACK AN TRIED TO SHOVE 20 ROUNDS OR SO BACK DOWN INTHE MAG. THE LOWER CENTER LINE MAKES IT HARD TO GET THE ROUND UP OVER THE BULLET GUIDE AN WHEN IT DOES THE ANGLE OF ENTRY INTOT HE CHAMBER IS PRETTY SHARP. THE WIDTH RESTRICTIONS OF A FACTORY MAKES IT HARD TO MAKE A A ROUND DOUBLE ARANGE WMT STAY UNDER THE LIPS WITH THE LIP WITH BEING WIDE ENOUGHT TO CLEAR THE BOLT AN CARRIER . A SHICK STEM CARRIER CAN ONLY BE MADE SO NARROW BEFORE ITS TO THIN AT THE BOLT STEM BORE.

A SMALL STEM CARRER WOULD BE BETTER BUT THEN YOUR DEALING WITH OPENING UP A 223 ROMMY TYPE BOLT OR LIKELY A 5.45 BOLT FACE UP TO .470"

PARTS OF A THE EDGES OF A 5.45 BOLT ARE REALLY THIN OR GONE WHEN YOU OPENTHE FACE TO .470. IM LOOKING AT THE FEASABILTY AN SAFTEY OF DOING THIS RIGHT NOW . THEN YOU GOT TO MAKE THE 5.45 EXTRACTER WORK ALSO I HAVENT TRIED IT YET.

IMO YOU WILL BE MODIFYING MAGS OF SOME SORT IF YOUR USING 308 BOLT FACE IN A AK/AR MAG LENGTH SHELL. THESE ISSUES ARE NOT SEEN IN A 308 TYPE CONVERSION BECAUSE YOU ARE USING 308 BASED MAGS. IM LOOING IT SECTONING A 308 MAG FOR THE 6MMM VARIANT PROJECT BUT THAT DEFEATING MY GOAL OF A BARREL ONLY CONVERSION. A MOD TO MAKE THE ROUNDS CENTER FEED FROM A GALIL MAG MIGHT BE THE EASYEST IF i CAN GET IT TO GO OUT OF A DUBLE STACK POSITION RELABLY. A SINGLE STCK MAG WOULD BE AOPTION AS WELL BUT i DONT HTING THERE GOING TO FIT IN A 223 MAG.

IM LOOKING FOR A X39 AN 223 SINGLE STACK MAG TO PLAY WITH IT IF ANY ONE HAS ANY CHEAP??????????

IT HAS ALSO OCCURED TO ME A HIGHLY TAPERD ROUND BASED ON 308 BRASS WOULD BE USEFULL AN EASIER TO FEED OUT OF A STANDARD CURVED AK MAG BUT YOU LIKEY WOULD NOT GAIN ANY THING OVER USIONG GRENDEL OR SPC BRASS DUE TO LOOSING GASE CAPACITY . IM LOOKING AT BEINBG ABLE TO GET ABIOUT 44 GRAINS CAPACITY OUT OF A THIN WALL COMMERCAIL 308 TYPE BRASS... THAT IS THE ADVANTAGE OF THIS OVER A GRENDAL BARES ROUND. ALSO A GRENDAL BASED ROUND IS GOING TO BE LIMITED TO ABOUT 9MM BULLETS DUE TO THE SMALLER OD.

11-17-2012, 06:45 AM

TRX

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1biggun

IN SUBSONIC WHY NOT JUST SHOOT LEAD?

Hey, don't look at *me*! I've been asking that all along...

Quote:

I FIRMY BELIEAVE A CUT DOWN 308 TYPE CASE IN AK IS A GOOD WAY TO GO FOR A LOT OF AK BASED WILD CATS. FINDING A MAG TO WORK AS IS IS GOING TO BE A REAL CHALLANGE IF NOT IMPOSSABLE.

I'd try an AK-74 magwell opening and a 5.45 mag first, then either a .223 AK mag or one of those M-16 STANAG adapters.
The .50 Beowulf is nearly straight and feeds fine through a M-16/AR-15 mag; I expect a straight .308 based round would work too.

11-17-2012, 09:13 AM

1biggun

I have tried 223 am mags the shells won't stay under the lips. You bump them an they come flying out. 5.45 mags to narrow at the front
Shoves the round to the side as it feeds out.

11-18-2012, 03:18 PM

1biggun

Quote:

I'd try an AK-74 magwell opening and a 5.45 mag first, then either a .223 AK mag or one of those M-16 STANAG adapters.
The .50 Beowulf is nearly straight and feeds fine through a M-16/AR-15 mag; I expect a straight .308 based round would work too.

IM pretty sure the 50 beowulf is a single stack deal in a AR mag an that the round will not fit throught the lip opening . the rounds have to be slid in fromthe front under the lips.

I have played with the 6mm br variant brass an it will not fit through the lips for sure. the problem is with a 308 win OD it almost does so the round sits really high out of the mag. There are guys shooting 6mm br an 6mm BRX in ar 15 mags from ar,s . From what I have read the main guy who does 6mm br uppers has mags special built for the round. there described as double stack but center feed. I may buy one if all else fails an just weld AK tabs to it. There about $35 each unfortunatly. A AR addapter would work but there not cheap. Id perfer to make this use AK mags. what ever I figure out for the 6mm project will likely work on the 444?????? as long as the front of the mag works with the larger bullets an dosent shove them to the side.

Tony at Tromix built a 458 socom an a AK I need to go back an see what mags he used. im sure they were a center stack deal also.

I was toying with the idea of a simple set of spacers that went inside the mags that welded to the sides that made a standard Galil 35 rounder into a single stack an then just narrow the lips to keep the round from going between them. If I can make them double stack center feed some how easy I will. Id have to figure a way to keep the rounds from haning up under the lips. possably bend them outward an them weld in some thing to narrow them. I dont want the carrier shoving the rounds into the mag a 1/4" every time the carrier comes back over the top of them. that would be hard on brass, mags , springs ect.

getting the geomitry just right is critical or you wont clear the bullet guide an if its to high the bullet guide will not lift it an it will hit the end of the barrel an not feed.

a 44 bullet is only about .025 smaller than the hole its got to feed into. that why IMO the 458 socom that is bottle necked is the better round. Its also why a 410 sagia. has a upper shroud extending from the barrel.

I still feel a Sagia 410 with a rifled barrel using brass 2.5" 410 hulls an bullet loaded protruding out of the hulls like a standard rifle round might be a better way to go. you could use 3" mags an the there would be no binding in a a standard mag like the 444 marlin did on Tonys build from tromix. I also would still be a shot gun an would also likely shoot standard shot gun shells. I have also toyed with a 2.5" sagia mag ( hard to get an expensive) an then you could use cut down 308 brass.

There is a guy who makes rifled 410 barrels an im pretty sure he even made a few saiga barrels. this would be a really easy way to get a 44 or 45 cal rifle with littel work. the down side is its still techcnicaly a 410 shot gun an I cant hunt here with a 410 shot gun even if the round looks like a rifle an does 2500 fps. Id have to replace the reciver an use a 410 SG for a parts kit to make it a rifle technicaly . . If a 410 was deer hunt legal I would have already done a rifled barrel on mine. an malikng it a rifle makes it sdo i cant hunt in the zome im in sort of a catch 22 :(

12-02-2012, 05:00 AM

TRX

I noticed Gunter hasn't checked in since 2009. Does anyone know what happened to him?

12-02-2012, 08:07 PM

1biggun

my Last pm from him showed some concerns about posting every thing he does online or some thing to that affect. We had shared considerable info an ideas on the wild cat.
I dont know if he ever finished his or not. when Obama got elected a lot of plans got reorganised.

The project on my end got stalled out due to wanting to get other guns built an my plans to build a switch barrel gun an was going to do a 444??? on it. The lack of bullet selection was also a issue . We were both sort of waiting for a 265 grain leverlution bullet to be sold seperatly so we could decide on a common case length that would be optimal for the unknown bullet dimensions. We wanted to as I recall make the case optimal for the longest bullets avaliable .

The round is still viable an doable. Imo the chamber can be cut with a boring bar an neck an throated with a seperate reamer. the bullet being only .025 or so smaller than the chamber might be hard to feed.

I still have the the barrel I turned unchamberd. sooner or later ill finish it.

12-03-2012, 07:13 PM

TRX

Several of the custom mold makers will make molds any weight .429" bullet you want for $100-ish. Speer also makes 300 grain FMJs for the .44.

A cast bullet ought to work just fine unless you want to really push the limits.