Pokémon Strategies and MovesetsPost your team lineups, get your team rated or rate other teams, talk about lineups, talk about moves/movesets, strategies, etc. For general talk about the games, go to the respective Pokémon game forums.

I'm going to lay it out here. Activity in S&M sucks. It's awful, and every "regular" here knows it.

ps. sorry for the wall of text. there's a tl;dr version at the end but read everything anyway

There's something intimidating about the place. Whether it's the fact that we spam competitive jargon or the reputation it earned way back when it was Flameland, no one is eager to post here unless they know the basics of battling anyway. I've been getting active in the PC IRC lately as well as looking at the DCC and just studying people in general and I see a lot of potential. There are actually surprisingly a lot of people who are at the very least interested in S&M and competitive battling. But why won't they post here? This is what we're going to figure out. We're going to make this forum alive like it was in 2007 (I wasn't here but hey, every oldhag here keeps talking about how awesome it was). It starts with us, the people who can consider themselves a "regular" of our PO server and our forum.

Anti made a thread on this before. You don't have to read through all of it, but the general gist of it was "Activity sucks. We'll fix it by being nicer and etc.!!" and sure, that's cool. Did we ever really get anything done by being nicer? Did we ever actually end up being nicer? Something about this thread in particular I wanted to point out: this post and this post. Do note that both of those people became a part of our tutoring program (the most recent one) and then they both ended up being inactive and not participating much. That might've been the fault of the program in general but still... People fear S&M. :/

We need to change that. We need people to see that "hey! people here aren't all complete jerks!" and "hey! you can actually get decent at battling by following the people's advice here!"

"We" refers to everyone, btw. All of you regulars. Yeah, I'll call all of you out: Karpman, Aero, Spinosaurus, Skip Shot, Opposite Day, dragonomega, Syndrome, Wolflare, everyone that comes on PO at all. Even TwilightBlade, Kaori and Luke; yeah, I know you guys don't battle much and/or are busy whatever but that's no reason why you can't at least help a little with S&M. The only reliable, recurring posters in ANY rate-my-team thread lately have been myself, Dark Azelf, and PlatinumDude. That really sucks. Do you want a comparison for how active this main forum of S&M is? How active our raters are?

In-Game Teams is more active than Strategies and Movesets' main forum.

Seriously. It is. Does anyone else realize how terrible that is? :/

Why don't our regulars rate? We can't rely on D_A and then two other people to rate people's teams and then expect our activity level to rise. Honestly! Why don't you rate? I really don't care at all how bad you think you are. The expectations of me and the rest of the forum of you "regulars" is now raised: I expect to start seeing rates and teams out of ALL of you. If your rate is bad, who cares? D_A or myself will come by and mention something politely about your rate and help nudge you in the right direction. This forum isn't just going to get active on its own, guys. You, the presiding regulars, have to actually post in the forum, lol. I expect to see your posts.

This is how we will make this forum active again: we will post in it.

Such a brilliant idea, huh? ;) Really, though, throw all of your bias and any fear of posting aside and please, please post. If you feel like you can say something or you notice anything about a team at all just say it! You don't have to make a complete rate or change everything in someone's team (read: You don't have to make tl;dr rates like this). If you have a suggestion post it and then we will go from there.

Really, the regulars posting is what's going to make this forum active again. I can't say it enough. Aero just brought up to me the difference between saying "oh I'll start posting" and actually doing it. The thing is, what's the big difference? It's not like you have to write an essay on everything. You are not obligated to point out every flaw in their team. If you do that, it feels like a chore and that certainly won't make you want to rate any more.

This thread is the very epitome of what I envision S&M becoming, but hopefully with more other people rating and posting and hopefully the OP updating their post more. A decent RMT thread at this point in time seems to go like this:

Code:

-- OP posts team
-- someone rates it, pointing out a flaw or two
-- D_A rates it
-- no one else rates it because it feels like D_A covered everything
-- OP posts again talking about changes
-- thread dies

Now, that sucks. It's like those OVP threads, where a topic is posted and everyone just says what they say and moves on. I want to think of a RMT thread more like a discussion thread, with everyone who rates kind of tinkering around with everyone else's ideas. A RMT thread should not have four or five posts - I'd much rather see a thread with 20+ posts that just have people making simple nitpicks on each other's rates and on the team, and with people actually responding to the changes. This of course requires that we have good, active RMT posters but it's not like the supply of RMTs will ever die out. There might be a dud or two but honestly I really want to see everyone discuss a team in a RMT thread rather than just take it and tear it apart. You are not obligated to rate an entire team, nor do I want you to do that because it limits the opportunities for other people to post.

The way for us to get S&M active is to have an inspired group of regulars who are willing to discuss teams with RMT posters on the main forum. It's not closed to one side or the other. If we maintain a kind, consistent amount of effort to post and keep the teams here flowing then we WILL see more activity, I can tell you that.

We've also got to make the most out of the upcoming tutor program. I expect to see all of you regulars there and available to help out because that's going to be the biggest draw for people to start coming here. If we can help people consciously realize that "Hey! I'm not going to get flamed for posting a team of Delibirds here!" then we WILL have more activity. If we can teach people how to battle competitively and we can gather interest through this class-tutoring program then the community will literally boom with activity. We just need to maintain a lot of active regulars in the forum to start with and we need to start now.

We don't flame here any more and we're going to encourage rating from everyone, good rates or bad because even bad rates can be corrected to make everyone better. That's all that it boils down to.

This. This is the best thing I've seen all night. I've been dying for something to come along to help bump up this part of the forum. Near enough all the RMT's have like 5 or less replies :/ I've never really seen any bad rates like 'your team sucks etc' but I can see why some people see it as scary. I want to consider myself a regular, I visit this part of the forum quite often but still learning about competitive battles so struggle to give decent rates. But this is a great idea to bump this place up a bit, hope it works! :)

I know I've been a little bit intimidated in the past by this forum, but I'm glad to see that people do want to create an active, welcoming environment that helps those of us who are new to competitive battling (like me) get better without tearing us apart. I'd love to frequent more forums on here by doing more than simply lurking, and an environment like the one you envisioned sounds like a great place to be. I can't really think of anything more to add to that vision. (:

I agree with this completely. S&M needs more activity and the only way we can do it is by posting. If I recall correctly, I only posted in S&M like...3 or 4 times since I joined.

Back in late 2009 and early 2010 I actually started hanging around the Shoddy server, but I was afraid to post here. Kind of funny, but the only reason I went to the Shoddy server was because of Wolf and Chaos. S&M was mean back then (one of the reason why Chaos left, I think.) so I tried avoiding it.
I thought of posting an RMT before though, because it was my first attempt at stall so I thought I needed help. Even though I was scared of being humiliated, I did it.
Yeah, it didn't end well.

I left Shoddy and S&M after that. Haven't came back until a little before the Get-Togther tour. I didn't wanna participate at all but Wolf made me lol. Was scared at first, but S&M changed. I got 3rd place in the tour, too. :> I've been into competitive battling for a while. Kind of forgot about the place later because idk.

Now here I am, after getting White and trying a new team. I made an RMT and all too and wasn't really scared, in fact I was really excited to make my team better. (It died fast. :( Oh well at least I found out it was at least good, it was just my inexperience that I kept losing.) I've been playing UU a lot with Vrai and Karpman and was just getting better after losing many times. (Fortunately, I was able to beat Vrai once haha.)
I noticed the inactivity here but didn't really know why until you posted that. S&M isn't scary if you get to meet the regular. If you're not here because you think you suck, then you shouldn't worry much since you'll only get better by battling more! After all, the tutor program is coming soon! 8D

I'm gonna try and post here more despite finals being near and all. I hope I help with making S&M active. :>
I'm not gonna make the same mistake I did with Pokemon Groups. >O

Good thread. 2007... maybe I'm too old to remember but having that kind of activity would be nice.

But seriously D_A is as scary as nails. I've only recently gotten the courage to post here again because I heard he got nicer (not really, I just got my fat ass into Pokemon again)

This. This is what I don't understand. (Even if you were joking or w/e)

Why people keep saying, "[x user] intimidates me", or "elf is scary" so oh, I just won't post in fear of my RMT being decapitated by them/him". Now correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't most of us put forward the effort to be nicer after Anti's last thread on the issue with S&M's activity? I see no reason anyone would or should be scared, other than just making themselves scared for no reason. Yeah sure, We are going to joke around and kick some people for fun and whatnot, but that's S&M's nature. It's not really like when we rate your team, we are going to go commando on it and tell you you never need to visit the forum again. We will help you by pointing out your mistakes and showing you what needs to possibly be changed.

The team rating issue, that's just us sitting on our lazy asses and not rating them. I know for a fact that all the regulars (including myself) have enough knowledge of the metagame to produce a coherent rate. Like vrai said, you dont have to bombard the user with a massive TL'DR, as much as you have to go find even the smallest problem, elaborate on it, and be on your merry way (Just don't say CHARIZARD IZ BAD Y U USE IT etc.). I know elf / Vrai / Etc are great raters, but that doesn't mean they can do it all by themselves. I also feel that if we had more RMT's by our regulars, and not just the random user who passes by, people would be more inclined to rate. I think people would look at a thread made by Dark Azelf before they look at one made by Shiny_Houndoom_Master999, but that's just me.

I agree. You're all forcing me to post, but all I can say is that I agree? I have no extra ideas to suggest that haven't been said millions of times beforehand. I'll get to rating after finals week is over (which is only three finals, so it shouldn't take long or be difficult in any way).

And as Syn said about the intimidation factor, it should have severely dropped in the past few months (and I certainly believe it did), but it will never completely go away, because as he said it's in the nature of the forum itself. Realize that in order to help people, flaws will be pointed out, that's the point of a RMT. I can see how it appears hostile, but it's not. :< We're a cuddly bunch once you all get to know us. :3 And elf is hardly scary. He's p cute, but I guess he's buff now. I dunno. xD

Just throwing this out here, if you want this place to be active before the new tutoring program starts, the post date is going to be June 11. I'm confident it will help with bringing back activity through teaching the people who are interested in battling, and make the forum/server less intimidating. It'll give us a lot of community activities too (Classes / Community Night, Community Create-A-Team, etc (and more if people suggest some)).

Anyway, I've been planning to start rating again, but in real life matters and preparing the tutoring program have been keeping me busy. I do like seeing RMT threads with +20 posts though...it reminds me of 08 when there was sometimes two pages of posts.

Also, I don't feel like going in-depth on this at the moment, so I'll leave this post very short. I wish Syn would fix his attitude more. That type of sarcasm/comments are okay towards regulars who are used to it, but not for new members. You might not think you are rude, but sometimes your comments can get out of hand (I haven't bothered to save any examples, because I don't really care anymore). Elf is only "intimidating" when he gets haxed too much, and forces you to battle over and over until there's no hax or he'll ban you, and so on. Hax complaining is okay, but you have to realize it is part of the game and it's bound to happen in every match. Saying stuff like "crits should be banned" each time you get haxed isn't going to make a difference; post that in Smogon's suspect thread. I don't care if you're an admin and can do whatever you want, if that was true I would simply ban everyone (of course I won't though). To me, your constant complaining is more annoying than hax itself. Our new regulars always apologize whenever there's hax, because whenever you or Syn (maybe other users?) complain excessively about it it can seem like it's the player's fault.

Edit: The forum being intimidating (mainly just the raters) has been fixed I believe. From looking at a few posts from a few weeks ago, it didn't seem like anyone was attacking members. The only thing that could make it better, is explain your suggestions a little bit more for new battlers (put yourself in their shoes)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf

Also me and Anti were talking yesterday on server.

Me and him lack motivation these days. So i really think we should make it more fun too. Dunno if you guys feel like this.

So....why arent we acting like one ? I mean, doing community things ? I suggested them before but Anti discarded them. Even little things like RMT archive and emblems would increase morale here.

I have some events planned if the tutoring program goes along well and gives us a few new members, because those events require more than what we have now. That's why I really want for the tutoring program to be successful...I'm kind of relying on it for future activities. I am also waiting for summer break, so most members will have the time to participate in all of them and keep 'em active.

This. This is the best thing I've seen all night. I've been dying for something to come along to help bump up this part of the forum. Near enough all the RMT's have like 5 or less replies :/ I've never really seen any bad rates like 'your team sucks etc' but I can see why some people see it as scary. I want to consider myself a regular, I visit this part of the forum quite often but still learning about competitive battles so struggle to give decent rates. But this is a great idea to bump this place up a bit, hope it works! :)

Me too, definitely. As long as people start posting kindly, then maybe things will change and we'll be able to turn activity and stuff in this forum around. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by flamehaze94

Good thread. 2007... maybe I'm too old to remember but having that kind of activity would be nice.

But seriously D_A is as scary as nails. I've only recently gotten the courage to post here again because I heard he got nicer (not really, I just got my fat ass into Pokemon again)

I'm glad! Hang around, because it's only gonna go up from here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhinc

I know I've been a little bit intimidated in the past by this forum, but I'm glad to see that people do want to create an active, welcoming environment that helps those of us who are new to competitive battling (like me) get better without tearing us apart. I'd love to frequent more forums on here by doing more than simply lurking, and an environment like the one you envisioned sounds like a great place to be. I can't really think of anything more to add to that vision. (:

People like you are exactly who we need to get to hang around here more. All three of you guys need to make sure you check out our PO server; that's where most of the activity in our forum happens (though hopefully this changes that a little ;o;).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf

Im only scary at Pokemons. ):

Really though, im a cloyster cat (as seen by my avatar). -_- lol

Glad to have you back though man.

Stop being such a cloystercat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spinosaurus

I agree with this completely. S&M needs more activity and the only way we can do it is by posting. If I recall correctly, I only posted in S&M like...3 or 4 times since I joined.

Back in late 2009 and early 2010 I actually started hanging around the Shoddy server, but I was afraid to post here. Kind of funny, but the only reason I went to the Shoddy server was because of Wolf and Chaos. S&M was mean back then (one of the reason why Chaos left, I think.) so I tried avoiding it.
I thought of posting an RMT before though, because it was my first attempt at stall so I thought I needed help. Even though I was scared of being humiliated, I did it.
Yeah, it didn't end well.

I left Shoddy and S&M after that. Haven't came back until a little before the Get-Togther tour. I didn't wanna participate at all but Wolf made me lol. Was scared at first, but S&M changed. I got 3rd place in the tour, too. :> I've been into competitive battling for a while. Kind of forgot about the place later because idk.

Now here I am, after getting White and trying a new team. I made an RMT and all too and wasn't really scared, in fact I was really excited to make my team better. (It died fast. :( Oh well at least I found out it was at least good, it was just my inexperience that I kept losing.) I've been playing UU a lot with Vrai and Karpman and was just getting better after losing many times. (Fortunately, I was able to beat Vrai once haha.)
I noticed the inactivity here but didn't really know why until you posted that. S&M isn't scary if you get to meet the regular. If you're not here because you think you suck, then you shouldn't worry much since you'll only get better by battling more! After all, the tutor program is coming soon! 8D

I'm gonna try and post here more despite finals being near and all. I hope I help with making S&M active. :>
I'm not gonna make the same mistake I did with Pokemon Groups. >O

That's the attitude we're looking for. 8D; Keep it upppp okay? :3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syndrome

This. This is what I don't understand. (Even if you were joking or w/e)

Why people keep saying, "[x user] intimidates me", or "elf is scary" so oh, I just won't post in fear of my RMT being decapitated by them/him". Now correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't most of us put forward the effort to be nicer after Anti's last thread on the issue with S&M's activity? I see no reason anyone would or should be scared, other than just making themselves scared for no reason. Yeah sure, We are going to joke around and kick some people for fun and whatnot, but that's S&M's nature. It's not really like when we rate your team, we are going to go commando on it and tell you you never need to visit the forum again. We will help you by pointing out your mistakes and showing you what needs to possibly be changed.

The team rating issue, that's just us sitting on our lazy asses and not rating them. I know for a fact that all the regulars (including myself) have enough knowledge of the metagame to produce a coherent rate. Like vrai said, you dont have to bombard the user with a massive TL'DR, as much as you have to go find even the smallest problem, elaborate on it, and be on your merry way (Just don't say CHARIZARD IZ BAD Y U USE IT etc.). I know elf / Vrai / Etc are great raters, but that doesn't mean they can do it all by themselves. I also feel that if we had more RMT's by our regulars, and not just the random user who passes by, people would be more inclined to rate. I think people would look at a thread made by Dark Azelf before they look at one made by Shiny_Houndoom_Master999, but that's just me.

Yeah, you're right. It's the fact that we're all just incredibly lazy and don't post on the forums at all that really makes us an inactive forum. It's not that we don't have enough regulars, it's that the ones we do have are stupidly inactive. I want to encourage everyone to post RMTs too, and for regulars to actually post on other regs' RMTs. Setting good examples all around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf

Also me and Anti were talking yesterday on server.

Me and him lack motivation these days. So i really think we should make it more fun too. Dunno if you guys feel like this.

So....why arent we acting like one ? I mean, doing community things ? I suggested them before but Anti discarded them. Even little things like RMT archive and emblems would increase morale here.

Thing is, I think we should work on getting a moderately active forum before we get those things up. But yeah, you're right. Once we start getting everyone active again I'd like to do more fun stuff but we can't until that happens.

Quote:

Originally Posted by .Aero

Move my most recent RMT to the RMT Archive kthnx.

I agree. You're all forcing me to post, but all I can say is that I agree? I have no extra ideas to suggest that haven't been said millions of times beforehand. I'll get to rating after finals week is over (which is only three finals, so it shouldn't take long or be difficult in any way).

And as Syn said about the intimidation factor, it should have severely dropped in the past few months (and I certainly believe it did), but it will never completely go away, because as he said it's in the nature of the forum itself. Realize that in order to help people, flaws will be pointed out, that's the point of a RMT. I can see how it appears hostile, but it's not. :< We're a cuddly bunch once you all get to know us. :3 And elf is hardly scary. He's p cute, but I guess he's buff now. I dunno. xD

Yeah. I think it's not so much the fact that flaws are being pointed out but more that they were in a way that was never really explained to the new kid: just "delibird sux use mamoswine" doesn't help them at all in a rate. It is in the nature of the forum to point out flaws in other people's posts, but that doesn't mean we don't have to explain ourselves or avoid being blunt about it. 8D; You need to get posting more too btw! I'll nag you about it until you do. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolflare

Just throwing this out here, if you want this place to be active before the new tutoring program starts, the post date is going to be June 11. I'm confident it will help with bringing back activity through teaching the people who are interested in battling, and make the forum/server less intimidating. It'll give us a lot of community activities too (Classes / Community Night, Community Create-A-Team, etc (and more if people suggest some)).

Anyway, I've been planning to start rating again, but in real life matters and preparing the tutoring program have been keeping me busy. I do like seeing RMT threads with +20 posts though...it reminds me of 08 when there was sometimes two pages of posts.

Also, I don't feel like going in-depth on this at the moment, so I'll leave this post very short. I wish Syn would fix his attitude more. That type of sarcasm/comments are okay towards regulars who are used to it, but not for new members. You might not think you are rude, but sometimes your comments can get out of hand (I haven't bothered to save any examples, because I don't really care anymore). Elf is only "intimidating" when he gets haxed too much, and forces you to battle over and over until there's no hax or he'll ban you, and so on. Hax complaining is okay, but you have to realize it is part of the game and it's bound to happen in every match. Saying stuff like "crits should be banned" each time you get haxed isn't going to make a difference; post that in Smogon's suspect thread. I don't care if you're an admin and can do whatever you want, if that was true I would simply ban everyone (of course I won't though). To me, your constant complaining is more annoying than hax itself. Our new regulars always apologize whenever there's hax, because whenever you or Syn (maybe other users?) complain excessively about it it can seem like it's the player's fault.

Edit: The forum being intimidating (mainly just the raters) has been fixed I believe. From looking at a few posts from a few weeks ago, it didn't seem like anyone was attacking members. The only thing that could make it better, is explain your suggestions a little bit more for new battlers (put yourself in their shoes)?

I have some events planned if the tutoring program goes along well and gives us a few new members, because those events require more than what we have now. That's why I really want for the tutoring program to be successful...I'm kind of relying on it for future activities. I am also waiting for summer break, so most members will have the time to participate in all of them and keep 'em active.

I honestly don't know if there's anything else I can say except that I completely agree with this entire post. I would very much like an active forum before we get the tutoring done though, so the people who came to the classes wouldn't go, "damn, this forum's dead so this is pointless" you know what I mean? I want to leave a good impression so they'll be more willing to hang around afterwards.

Well, this is all very nice. You know, it's funny, we've had initiatives like this before, but never one brought up by a regular. That makes me very happy (good job Vrai), but I think that the staff perspective can do well here since some of it hasn't been shared.

When I quit modding back last summer sometime, I remember PMing D_A and Aura this big PM about what I believed to be the main, fundamental issues with our forum. Some of them have been confronted, like the issue of intimidation. Some have not, and I'll get to those later. But first, the intimidation factor.

I came on the server last night and stayed on for the first time in a good month and asked D_A how the "niceness" was holding up and he didn't even hesitate with a negative response. At first I was angry, but only for a split second...then I just didn't really care. Since I have a very strong feeling that I won't be around much longer here anyways, I'm not holding anything back in this post. I mean, back when B&W came out our little motto was "the time is now"...well guess what, that time has passed. So we better fix this now or just leave for somewhere else because honestly, I don't see any miraculous savior in the horizon or deus ex machina or Ho-oh blasting Evice's helicopter out of the sky coming unless everyone together just does something about this.

So yes, the niceness has apparently not been solved. But to be honest, that's not the only problem with intimidation as a whole. I don't know if this still happens, but the whole "we're going to battle until you don't hax me" thing is absolute BS. All it does is give off the perception that we're ultra-competitive freaks who will win at all costs and will harass people until that happens. It also doesn't help that ever time Excadrill is nominated for a test some brainless, stupid, worthless idiots are killing the suspect test or that anyone who supports even a test of Salamence is just a theorymoning idiot who only relies on damage calculations. And yeah, I know no one says this or even comes close to it, but people still openly call people with different opinions stupid...which says to any lurker "yeah, they might not be being mean, but I sure as hell better not disagree with them or I'm toast." Then people do other minor things that are indeed minor but still send the wrong message, like "hey let's post a portion of a log of a battle I'm having now to show how stupid ladder people are!!!!" which is again just awful for perception. And the biggest irony of it is that for all the big game some people talk, they contribute more to the inactivity of the forum than anyone by scaring off potential regulars and pissing off and alienating current ones. Then there is being mean itself which is obviously bad etc. etc. but I think it's time to take it a step further. I mean come on, it's just downright selfish and stupid and has a stench of desperation. Seriously, is it really worth "having fun" or picking on "some insignificant random" just because we can and it's supposedly "cool" or whatever? We're not in junior high anymore guys, so can we please stop acting like we are?

Now for activity, which has also been addressed. I think D_A and I have been pretty explicit in voicing our frustration with the current situation, and in my case, the inevitable doom of the forum. Except before, I tried to throw in things like "well, the future release of B&W gives us a very good opportunity and we'll get active again" or "wait until we get through a few tutoring rounds and we'll be back up and running"...and I did in fact believe in that. But I no longer do. The truth of the matter is that a lot of people will probably respond to this thread's OP going "oh yeah I agree totally" as some people already have but will then do nothing to get things going in a positive direction...because that's what happened last time...and the time before that...and the time before that...and so on........... That's basically the reason for the total defeatism in the minds of staff. To be honest, it's why I've basically stopped coming on here at all: why come on and give effort to post in the forum, battle, and stay active if I know that no one else will do the same thing? The lesson from this is that eventually people are just going to downright leave (and I know a few people who are, myself included). The truth is that only we can save ourselves...oh wait, that has been true forever. And no one seems to care. And you guys wonder why I want to leave (and why I'm not alone feeling that way)?

As far as the specific issue of team rating (and posting) goes, what exactly is so hard about it? Even with the absence of a team rating guide (BTW, there's this cool website called Smogon which appears to have one...), what exactly is so hard about it? Hey look a team, find some weaks or dead weight or something and find a way to make fixes to those things or just improve it in general. Yeah D_A covers a lot but at this rate D_A isn't going to be here to cover anything, and truthfully, D_A isn't some omniscient competitive battling wizard whose invincibility destroys even the mightiest of lords. I mean come on, there are a lot of different ways to improve teams. D_A probably doesn't spend two hours formulating the perfect solutions to each team. Alternatives exist. I don't necessarily mind this mentality though just because it's so natural and D_A is indeed so good, so I'm not bitter like I am with the other stuff but it still has to go.

This next thing, on the other hand, really annoys me. Occasionally I'll get "well it's just so hard to want to rate teams when the OP hasn't even taken much time or effort." I mean come on, look in the mirror. Almost none of our regulars post in the main forum at all except for an occasional RMT (if that), so how can anyone possibly complain about the effort of others? Furthermore, new users don't know our "standards" or whatever, and they likely don't understand the nuances of competitive. In truth, most of them are doing their best. Even the people who post 2 Pokemon and ask for 4 more to fill out the team are probably legitimately stuck in their own minds and want help. Things that are much more complete than that deserve our attention. RMTs don't need to have a pretty format and unique art to be "worthy" of our time and effort. It's not like (while we're online) we're doing anything better.

In case it wasn't obvious, my main frustration is that the same people who complain about activity are the ones who are to blame for it. I don't mean this to humiliate or harass anyone but rather to point out that it's time to put up or shut up because a lot of us have had enough and WILL leave. Now let's get to part two.

In the pre-quitting PM to D_A and Aura I mentioned at the beginning of this post (tl;dr wooooo), one of the main points I mentioned was community. This hasn't gotten much attention but I'm glad that D_A brought it up. The thing that separated 2007 from now is that 2007 S&M was a community. Things like tournaments and community nights that were supposed to bring the community back together have failed due to lack of member participation. D_A mentioned that I blocked some of that, most of which I regret and some of which I do not (mostly badging members and creating some weird RMT Archive poser, but that's really all I can think of). In retrospect, killing mini tournaments was a pretty foolish thing on my part, and probably emblems too if only because of the "why not, we might as well since nothing else will work" factor. Trust me, it's a terrible feeling knowing that no one cares as much as you do to get activity back up and there's nothing you can do about it. But even worse probably is that the community has kind of evaporated...there is so much more tension now than there used to be. All I know is that in 2007 there wouldn't be member feuds that lasted for months or secret petitions to get people de-staffed or constant bickering between its members or a group of people that can't even come together to do more of what we signed up to do--post! Yeah everyone sucked at Pokemon in 2007, but it sure as hell was more fun because we all loved each other and were bad together. Now it's too much snobbishness and "bawww this team looks kinda like the OP didn't put much efforts into it so I guess I won't rate it." And when I say snobbishness I'm not talking about it to new users like I was before, I mean to each other. In 2007, chat logs went like this:

User 1: Suicune / CBTar / SubSalac Blaziken / Infernape / SpecsMence / ???
User 2: Tar + Blaziken don't really work together and Infernape and Blaziken are somewhat redundant
User 2: Maybe Blissey >>> Blaziken to deal with your sp. attackers weak and Skarm >>> Blaziken to team up with Suicune for physical threats and to spread Spikes/beat Ninjask?
User 3: Yeah, you could also add CurseLax instead of Blissey if you want a more offensive take on a sp. wall
User 1: Okay, that sounds good, thanks guys

And that's really freaking annoying. Yeah it's not technically being mean and it's "in fun" or whatever crappy excuse you want to use to justify it but again, this sends a bad message to new users/lurkers and it disunites those who are already here. When people would say stuff like that I used to get annoyed and just go idle, and lately those types of stupid, "witty" sarcasm posts just make me think "eh, why bother logging on" at this point. And that's the mentality of someone who has become pretty much immune to disappointment and disillusionment. Imagine how new users feel about that.

One other point I want to make is about the battling aspect of community. In 2007 (yes I know it's getting tiresome of hearing about it but is that time not what we aspire to recreate?), everyone had friendly battles all the time. Now I feel like that doesn't happen so much...partly because people don't battle as much. Once I finally had time to start gen 5 battling a few months ago, I was stunned at how I could only battle a few opponents and then just stopped both because of irl stress but also because I noticed that my team edits were becoming counter-teams without me even realizing it, and that really isn't good. I mean yeah, there's the ladder, but battling your friends is so much more fun and rewarding because laddering is all about winning, whereas battling friends you can remember the experience, share the fun of the battle itself, and know that the result matters but that it will be different in future battles. Battling is, in my opinion, an empty experience if you can't battle your friends. It also doesn't help that people have become hax-obsessive and overly competitive even in these matches. Yeah, I get that competitive battling is to win, but it certainly isn't something to be slamming your mouse on your desk about. The increased usage of "it's just a game" in my Shoddy/PO posts is a good enough illustration of this. I guess the point of this paragraph is twofold: 1) to remind people to battle... & 2) to also remind people that it's just a game and it's supposed to be fun and filled with humor...I mean, my fondest memories about competitive come from games I have lost or meaningless battle marathons with D_A.

So those are the criticisms. In the past in similar things I would weave in what we can do to solve it but at this point it's not a matter of knowing how to fix things but of doing what it takes to turn this around, as Vrai said. Indeed, much of the bitterness and resentment that has accumulated over the past two and a half years and that has no doubt come pouring out in the text above this has come from the basic fact that we have known how to fix this for awhile but no one save a few people care to fix it. A lot of what I posted was not for enlightenment (if I may use such a heavy term) but for emphasis, to emphasize that this ship, which has long been barely floating in the ocean with its passengers barely getting by, is about to sink because of the problems I mentioned here, the same problems that others have mentioned in other posts and threads before this.

I have to go out to lunch tomorrow and will cut this "short" but I will conclude by saying thank you for surviving through this tl;dr post (though I do not apologize for its length, as it is necessary this time)...and lastly, that this could be (and will likely be) the last one of these home improvement threads that older regulars will be around for if things don't change.

The very first thing that we must do if we hope to increase activity here in ye old S and M is to make it extremely inviting. The atmosphere that we should be striving for is "Everyone having fun battling together", not "Regulars rule, nubs get eaten up". Hell, I am horrid at battling, but I feel at home on the PO Server and the regulars are truly great guys. Also, Syn, I hope you take no offense to this, but you've pretty much replaced D-A as the "intimidator" of S&M. I know it feels great to show BlaQk, or any other user how much more knowledgeable about the metagame you are than them, but you could honestly go about it less bluntly. I know there's a heart somewhere down there, I've seen it in action before. Another small thing that each of us should at least attempt to do, is give small tips during battles. If your opponent uses Giga Impact, or switches their Ferrothorn into Latios (assuming HP fire as per standard set), then why not tell them why it was a bad idea? Honestly, it's somewhat embarassing that we're one of the largest Pokemon forums on the internet, yet forums like PokeBattleCenter and Mysidia's battling communities are almost quadruple the size of ours. We don't just need to make battling non-intimidating, we need to make it look like a hell of a time, show budding battlers the joy that comes from sweeping your opponent.

I'd love to try to actuate some activity here, but, in all honesty, I'm a huge hypocrite. I'm not the guy who throws out huge posts, or even is enthusiastic about posting and battling is continually managing to annoy me, after each loss. I like playing my friends and all, but laddering and whatnot ends in nothing but frustration.

Also, I really think it's about time I said this. Luke could really step up a bit. He's a great battler, moderator, etc, but, in my opinion, he could be doing a bit better as one of the leaders of the competitive community on PC. I've seen him dismiss a newer member who was interrupting irc numerous times, asking for competitive advice. As much of a nuisance as he was, it would have been pretty nice of him to help the guy out, considering he was perfectly capable of doing so. I apologize if this sounds disrespectful, but I felt the need to address it.

Finally, the behavior on the PO server could be a bit better. Again, the hypocrisy is ever-present in this statement, as I'm probably the worst behaved on the server, well, second to Lala. I'll be making a conscious effort to watch what I do and say and I think everybody else ought to adopt the same policy, we shouldn't be scaring away new battlers because we're talking about BlackCherryShipping, Hot Dogs or other miscellany. We could also treat Drakow with a lot more respect. Sure, he may think he's lord of darkness, sure, he probably has a crush on like 10 female PC members and sure, his adamant desire to have 2 Dragon and 3 Dark types limits his team's potential, but you're all forgetting one thing. Drakow is just like we all were at one point: Eager to learn about the metagame and make some friends along the way. I know it's part of the famous "S&M Culture", but no one ridiculed us when we were learning, I know I sure wasn't ridiculed when I used bad counterteams and got 6-0'd by all of the regulars, so why does he have to get ridiculed?

I come back on this morning to see if activity has bumped up a bit and I can see more people doing RMT's already, the more people who read this the better its doing wonders! I wasn't on here in 2007 when this place was at its best aparently, but I'm hoping I was here in 2011 when S&M got even more activity! :D

Anyways, even though I'm not frequent here anymore at all I can agree that I would want to be if people would just quit trying to be cool and create discussion amongst each other. Back in the old days it was fun because we could get on to "Hey, how are you today" instead of looking for reasons to jump into conversation. Just seems like the rules in general at PC are restricting a lot of activity.

I come back on this morning to see if activity has bumped up a bit and I can see more people doing RMT's already, the more people who read this the better its doing wonders! I wasn't on here in 2007 when this place was at its best aparently, but I'm hoping I was here in 2011 when S&M got even more activity! :D

This.

Us newhags will try to increase the activity of S&M as well, so the regulars aren't the only one in this. :D

__________________

verdan t ♥sanctuary

Tree o Tree
will never give up growing
let's not give up forgiving
because they do not know what they are doing.

""We" refers to everyone, btw. All of you regulars. Yeah, I'll call all of you out: Karpman, Aero, Spinosaurus, Skip Shot, Opposite Day, dragonomega, Syndrome, Wolflare, everyone that comes on PO at all. Even TwilightBlade, Kaori and Luke; yeah, I know you guys don't battle much and/or are busy whatever but that's no reason why you can't at least help a little with S&M. The only reliable, recurring posters in ANY rate-my-team thread lately have been myself, Dark Azelf, and PlatinumDude."

Hahaha, I dodged that shizz :p

Man that Legion of Supremacy brings back good times. It was the last bit of competitive battling I did before disappearing off the radar.

Alright, I'll consider making some effort in the S&M section in future.

People like you are exactly who we need to get to hang around here more. All three of you guys need to make sure you check out our PO server; that's where most of the activity in our forum happens (though hopefully this changes that a little ;o;).

I'll see what I can do. I tend to vanish a lot because college is pretty intense, in terms of work load. But it's summer now, so I should be able to hang around and contribute to the community.

Just a random thought from a relatively new member - I find the majority of the forum intimidating, not particular members but theres no way I will start a thread unless I'm completely and utterly certain it will comply with the rules, which is rare.

It seems that every 1 thread out of 10 gets locked or moved. I do understand why this is as I ran a successful forum for a couple of years and I know how desperately staff try to keep a forum tidy etc etc but I have never seen it quite so bad on any other forum I have been on (including forums the same size and bigger). I don't want to go making threads, starting new conversations, purely because I dont want to end up looking like a complete idiot or being warned by staff for making a thread I wasn't supposed to.

Like I said, just a random thought from a newbie for you, more geared to the entire forum but I highly doubt that I'm the only person who feels the same way. Apologies if this is completely irrelevant to the topic >.<

Just a random thought from a relatively new member - I find the majority of the forum intimidating, not particular members but theres no way I will start a thread unless I'm completely and utterly certain it will comply with the rules, which is rare.

It seems that every 1 thread out of 10 gets locked or moved. I do understand why this is as I ran a successful forum for a couple of years and I know how desperately staff try to keep a forum tidy etc etc but I have never seen it quite so bad on any other forum I have been on (including forums the same size and bigger). I don't want to go making threads, starting new conversations, purely because I dont want to end up looking like a complete idiot or being warned by staff for making a thread I wasn't supposed to.

Like I said, just a random thought from a newbie for you, more geared to the entire forum but I highly doubt that I'm the only person who feels the same way. Apologies if this is completely irrelevant to the topic >.<

The threads only get locked because they're normally against the rules, you'll find most of them are just people asking us to build the team for them. We're only here to help and suggest, not build it for you. The one's that are moves are just in the wrong section, if it's for an In-game team, it should go in the In-game forum. It's not really that hard. Starting a conversation really doesn't relate to this? <_<; Just go on a person's profile that you want to get to know and just hit them up. :3 Simple. Posting in the right forum isn't that hard either, you're not gonna make a "Best feature about Black and White" in the Heartgold and Soulsilver forum are you?

Anyway, I'm trying to be as active as I can in S&M, I post threads from time to time and post around quite a bit, mostly I post in the questions thread, giving advice, and giving out moveset's. <3 The S&M is quite a hard to place to deal with because it can't run events. ;; Since they're ran in the battle stadium, maybe combine S&M and the Battle Stadium? Idk.

When I first started posting in here, I was really intimidated. <_< I was terrified of D_A & Syndrome mostly. :x But if people are complaining about us S&M'ers being intimidating, they should get to know us, and find out that we are just like any other person. :3 Idek what I'm saying now. haha. n__n; But now this place is like a new home! :3 go me

To boost activity I suggest advertising PO at any chance you get, it brings people to the PC server and then we can show them how nice we are. n____n; then tell them to go to S&M.

The threads only get locked because they're normally against the rules, you'll find most of them are just people asking us to build the team for them. We're only here to help and suggest, not build it for you. The one's that are moves are just in the wrong section, if it's for an In-game team, it should go in the In-game forum. It's not really that hard. Starting a conversation really doesn't relate to this? <_<; Just go on a person's profile that you want to get to know and just hit them up. :3 Simple. Posting in the right forum isn't that hard either, you're not gonna make a "Best feature about Black and White" in the Heartgold and Soulsilver forum are you?

As I stated my post was just a simple generalisation for how I personally feel regarding the whole forum.

I know exactly what you mean regarding people posting pointless threads, or threads in the wrong place and what needs to be done with those but I've honestly never seen it quite so bad on any other forum I've been a member of. Maybe its the genre or the memberbase... The other forums I go on tend to be geared towards the older generation. But, this countless number of locked threads and the thread redirects that get created when a thread is moved puts me off of posting new threads myself.

When I said conversation I was merely refering to different types of threads - including the "conversational" ones, I apologise for not making myself clear. It has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, just the way I worded my post. I wasn't refering to threads made for specific people that should be conducted via PM or VM.

Regarding the specific S&M forum and its activity - I honestly don't understand why its not busier as it's must be extemely useful for some. There are two reasons why I personaly dont use it - I dont feel the need to as I get on in battles quite well, secondly I dont want to go posting a thread only to get "feedback" along the lines of "Your team sucks".

I'd probably say I'd be more active in this board when the tutoring program comes out, since I don't really know much about building teams, rating teams, or a majority of the competitive system. The basics are only what I really know and until then, there isn't much of a point for me to post here when I wouldn't know what half the people are saying or what they mean on certain terms of battling. Though once the tutoring program is out, I'd be on summer vacation by then and thus, have more time to learn from it.

I don't find anyone intimidating, especially since I've gotten to know most regulars here from PO. Plus there are the battlers I've had been talking to since I joined PC or a little after like Wolflare, Spinosaurus and TwilightBlade. That isn't a problem here for me, and I'd expect with the tutoring program, we'd get to know the people here more a bit better with that.

But if you notice, you're a moderator, which is confidence in itself in my opinion, as well as two of the people you talked to. :P

That aside, though, I think that the problem with users not posting is as StarlightSerenity said, the rules on PC can get strict, and some people are really trying to avoid Infractions, and I've gotten two infractions from the S&M section myself, one of which was reversed, and the other was for offtopic, which was ridiculous because I was only asking how to download a program. :P

But I got off-topic a bit, what I'm really trying to say is I don't think it's any one section, I just think the entire community is losing activity due to rules and crashes. But that's just me speculating.

Anyway, I'm trying to be as active as I can in S&M, I post threads from time to time and post around quite a bit, mostly I post in the questions thread, giving advice, and giving out moveset's. <3 The S&M is quite a hard to place to deal with because it can't run events. ;; Since they're ran in the battle stadium, maybe combine S&M and the Battle Stadium? Idk.

First off, I would agree with this. Make competitive pokemon, whether actual battles or theorymonning, one forum. The two share the same ends.

Secondly, about the intimidation stuff. I just recently joined this forum when B&W were released, because I had a friend who said there were tournaments and battles run here, and that it was pretty active. Never did he mention any intimidation, so I wonder if that is sort of an invented problem? Generation four was at its end, naturally activity would go down, I think. Also, this is a competitive forum, I don't understand why it wouldn't feel a little intimidating just from its nature; people posting here should not be scared of criticism, as there's probably a little truth in every post. If someone posts "electric/metagame weak 2/10 this team sux", perhaps that seems a bit offputting, but to me it looks like it's getting to the core of an issue (namely, getting rolled by Raichu). I get that it's not directly contributing by recommending some ground pokemon or maybe something with Lightningrod, or the ever-infuriating Ferrothorn, but at least it is pointing out a flaw.

If there's any intimidation issue, I think its a problem with using pokemon below UU, and sometimes below OU, on a team. I find the most common complaint about teams, across forums, is that Pokemon A outclasses Pokemon B, or worse, merely that Pokemon B is not good. That's fine, and it can be helpful advice, but chances are if the person is setting up a competitive team, they knew about Pokemon A, but chose B anyways. However, too many people see the OP using B, and seem to obsess on that, and forget that probably the OP just likes Pokemon B, and that's really all there is to it, and no amount of theorymonning will change their mind. Its a symptom of tiering, and loses sight of the "have fun" aspect of gaming. I use Empoleon, I use Magmortar; they are fun for me to use, I like their designs, and they are unexpected for most people (though admittedly not hard to deal with), and nothing is going to change my mind about using them more often than not.

This gets back to the team of 6 delibirds; I think people don't post that team not because they are afraid of someone saying it sucks (they probably already know that), but because they know it won't get any discussion of merit. Instead of saying "Braviary outclasses Delibird," and leaving it at that, the question should be what is Delibird really capable of (maybe a rapid spin, fake out, status set?), ignoring the problems with species clause.

If there's a problem with *****ing about hax, then that is a problem with individual users, and sore losers, and nothing will change that. Good teams will be at least somewhat resilient to luck, and if you lose anyways on a series of 6 crits, it just was not meant to happen. Being able to DC on wifi with no punishment bothers me for the same reason: Pokemon more than most games makes luck a factor, and then does nothing to show the player that it is unacceptable to try and prevent it. The game should open with a battle against your rival where he always crits, or you always flinch, or something, and you can challenge him over and over and the same thing will always happen, until you give up, and the scene ends with the professor saying something along the lines of, "Well, that's Pokemon!"

Anyways,these are just some thoughts. Mostly though, I throw in my support for what dragon suggests, I think if you just combine the two forums, you'll see an increase in activity for both, because the two drive each other.

Ahhh you too! I just named all of the ones off the top of my head, okay? >:<

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhinc

I'll see what I can do. I tend to vanish a lot because college is pretty intense, in terms of work load. But it's summer now, so I should be able to hang around and contribute to the community.

That's okay. We have a lot of people trying to deal with college, too. As long as you're here to help out a little that'd be wonderful! 8D

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragonomega

The threads only get locked because they're normally against the rules, you'll find most of them are just people asking us to build the team for them. We're only here to help and suggest, not build it for you. The one's that are moves are just in the wrong section, if it's for an In-game team, it should go in the In-game forum. It's not really that hard. Starting a conversation really doesn't relate to this? <_<; Just go on a person's profile that you want to get to know and just hit them up. :3 Simple. Posting in the right forum isn't that hard either, you're not gonna make a "Best feature about Black and White" in the Heartgold and Soulsilver forum are you?

Anyway, I'm trying to be as active as I can in S&M, I post threads from time to time and post around quite a bit, mostly I post in the questions thread, giving advice, and giving out moveset's. <3 The S&M is quite a hard to place to deal with because it can't run events. ;; Since they're ran in the battle stadium, maybe combine S&M and the Battle Stadium? Idk.

When I first started posting in here, I was really intimidated. <_< I was terrified of D_A & Syndrome mostly. :x But if people are complaining about us S&M'ers being intimidating, they should get to know us, and find out that we are just like any other person. :3 Idek what I'm saying now. haha. n__n; But now this place is like a new home! :3 go me

To boost activity I suggest advertising PO at any chance you get, it brings people to the PC server and then we can show them how nice we are. n____n; then tell them to go to S&M.

Just my two cents. :3

We do need to get people to come to PO since it's the social background of this forum. It's very generally when people start going there that they begin being an active battler. Combining S&M and the Battle Stadium would be... well, it's in with Trade Corner because, welll, they're both WiFi-related? I dunno.

...Actually, I think that there's a lot of merit to that idea. Both Battle Stadium and S&M are pretty bad as far as activity and honestly they're probably the two most related boards that aren't subforums of each other on PC. It's something worth debating about. -pokes staff-

Quote:

Originally Posted by StarlightSerenity

Regarding the specific S&M forum and its activity - I honestly don't understand why its not busier as it's must be extemely useful for some. There are two reasons why I personaly dont use it - I dont feel the need to as I get on in battles quite well, secondly I dont want to go posting a thread only to get "feedback" along the lines of "Your team sucks".

@ the S&M specific part: Right. We'd like to avoid things like "Your team sucks". That's why I posted this thread, after all. That notion that you could even have your team rated to a degree that you personally are insulted shouldn't be in anyone's heads. We don't want to be seen as a bunch of asses, we want to be "oh those guys that helped me get a good team together". And it's perfectly fine if you don't want to be a part of competitive battling - nothing's forcing you to be here! We just want to keep the people who do have an interest. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaori

I'd probably say I'd be more active in this board when the tutoring program comes out, since I don't really know much about building teams, rating teams, or a majority of the competitive system. The basics are only what I really know and until then, there isn't much of a point for me to post here when I wouldn't know what half the people are saying or what they mean on certain terms of battling. Though once the tutoring program is out, I'd be on summer vacation by then and thus, have more time to learn from it.

I don't find anyone intimidating, especially since I've gotten to know most regulars here from PO. Plus there are the battlers I've had been talking to since I joined PC or a little after like Wolflare, Spinosaurus and TwilightBlade. That isn't a problem here for me, and I'd expect with the tutoring program, we'd get to know the people here more a bit better with that.

Yep. I would like for us to have a more inviting forum when that does happen, but hopefully the biggest jump in activity will happen when we've got the tutoring up and running. YOU'LL BE MODERATELY ACTIVE THEN OKAY.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ooka

But if you notice, you're a moderator, which is confidence in itself in my opinion, as well as two of the people you talked to. :P

That aside, though, I think that the problem with users not posting is as StarlightSerenity said, the rules on PC can get strict, and some people are really trying to avoid Infractions, and I've gotten two infractions from the S&M section myself, one of which was reversed, and the other was for offtopic, which was ridiculous because I was only asking how to download a program. :P

But I got off-topic a bit, what I'm really trying to say is I don't think it's any one section, I just think the entire community is losing activity due to rules and crashes. But that's just me speculating.

We're only concerned about S&M here right now, though. Let's not move this into PC in general - that's something that we can talk about some other time. S&M is the priority of this thread. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneofFour

First off, I would agree with this. Make competitive pokemon, whether actual battles or theorymonning, one forum. The two share the same ends.

Secondly, about the intimidation stuff. I just recently joined this forum when B&W were released, because I had a friend who said there were tournaments and battles run here, and that it was pretty active. Never did he mention any intimidation, so I wonder if that is sort of an invented problem? Generation four was at its end, naturally activity would go down, I think. Also, this is a competitive forum, I don't understand why it wouldn't feel a little intimidating just from its nature; people posting here should not be scared of criticism, as there's probably a little truth in every post. If someone posts "electric/metagame weak 2/10 this team sux", perhaps that seems a bit offputting, but to me it looks like it's getting to the core of an issue (namely, getting rolled by Raichu). I get that it's not directly contributing by recommending some ground pokemon or maybe something with Lightningrod, or the ever-infuriating Ferrothorn, but at least it is pointing out a flaw.

If there's any intimidation issue, I think its a problem with using pokemon below UU, and sometimes below OU, on a team. I find the most common complaint about teams, across forums, is that Pokemon A outclasses Pokemon B, or worse, merely that Pokemon B is not good. That's fine, and it can be helpful advice, but chances are if the person is setting up a competitive team, they knew about Pokemon A, but chose B anyways. However, too many people see the OP using B, and seem to obsess on that, and forget that probably the OP just likes Pokemon B, and that's really all there is to it, and no amount of theorymonning will change their mind. Its a symptom of tiering, and loses sight of the "have fun" aspect of gaming. I use Empoleon, I use Magmortar; they are fun for me to use, I like their designs, and they are unexpected for most people (though admittedly not hard to deal with), and nothing is going to change my mind about using them more often than not.

This gets back to the team of 6 delibirds; I think people don't post that team not because they are afraid of someone saying it sucks (they probably already know that), but because they know it won't get any discussion of merit. Instead of saying "Braviary outclasses Delibird," and leaving it at that, the question should be what is Delibird really capable of (maybe a rapid spin, fake out, status set?), ignoring the problems with species clause.

If there's a problem with *****ing about hax, then that is a problem with individual users, and sore losers, and nothing will change that. Good teams will be at least somewhat resilient to luck, and if you lose anyways on a series of 6 crits, it just was not meant to happen. Being able to DC on wifi with no punishment bothers me for the same reason: Pokemon more than most games makes luck a factor, and then does nothing to show the player that it is unacceptable to try and prevent it. The game should open with a battle against your rival where he always crits, or you always flinch, or something, and you can challenge him over and over and the same thing will always happen, until you give up, and the scene ends with the professor saying something along the lines of, "Well, that's Pokemon!"

Anyways,these are just some thoughts. Mostly though, I throw in my support for what dragon suggests, I think if you just combine the two forums, you'll see an increase in activity for both, because the two drive each other.

I think you're assuming that the people that come here are high-level thinkers. Yeah, they're not stupid, but if they realized that their team was bad enough to not have any discussion of merit then they'd probably be intelligent enough to fix those simplistic problems on their own, ya? A team of six Delibird is a drastic example, too - people aren't that stupid. You're also assuming that people wouldn't take any offense from a rate like that; yes, you're right, they shouldn't but people do. It's the fear of "oh people are just going to tell me I suck so why bother". We want to eliminate that thought.

And Anti... don't worry. Things are going to change. I will guarantee it.

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