Winchester Silver Tip Hollow Point for self defense

This is a discussion on Winchester Silver Tip Hollow Point for self defense within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by 40Bob
That is really lame. Are those the only two failures you could find?
I mentioned a blanket statement about silvertips in ...

I mentioned a blanket statement about silvertips in general being effective, but specifying the 125 grain 357 magnum as effective. Wow, someone shot with a 357 magnum survived and continued to fight. A female LA cop also took a 357 that penetrated her chest and was able to shoot and kill her attacker. The failure in both of the shootings you linked are well documented and it was shot placement, not the bullet that failed. If anything it stresses the fact that multiple well placed shots are required to end a violent attack. Even you have stated in multiple posts the importance of shot placement and the lack of a magic bullet.

There was a situation in I believe 1982, where a subject high on PCP was robbing a convenience store. When the cops pulled up he started shooting at them with a Browning High Power. During the exchange of gunfire he walked out to his car, got in, drove a block down the road, pulled over and died. He was hit 27 times with 357 magnum rounds. Did cops abandon the 357 then? Not hardly. Then there was the famous photo in the book "Street Survival" showing 33 9mm hits to a BG's torso and head and yet he kept fighting.

That is why I stand by my assessment gained from 3 decades of law enforcement experience in some very rough places in this country. I will carry the most powerful handgun I can conceal and shoot well. That is why I carry a 40 and a 357 magnum and soon to be a 357 Sig and a 357 Magnum.

A friend of mine shot a guy who was trying his best to remove his head with a steel rod. He fired five shots with his Sig 220 as he was ducking. The BG was hit in the buttock with a 185 +P 45 ACP silvertip. It penetrated and exited though his pelvis. He was able to swim across the Rio Grande and seek medical assistance in Mexico.

I do not recall ever stating that the Silvertip was a magic bullet.

What I think is lame is your back handed dismissal of documented failures (typical) of this ammunition. You're also not the only one here that's chased bad guys or been on both ends of the muzzle flash. While your personal experience is I'm sure meaningful to you (as mine are to me) it has no bearing on the discussion as it regards the Silvertip ammunition.

The Silvertip line of ammunition fails the FBI protocol much like it's many failures on the street. What I'd like to see is you supporting your view point with credible sources rather than anecdotes and he said.

The Silvertip in the FBI shootout performed exactly as designed. And so with the Illinois SP. But the reason for its failure was not design, it was a combination of weight and speed. When Illinois went to a +p+ Federal loading, they saw great success.

And, this same rhetoric cannot be applied to all other calibers the ST is made in. Moving up to a 44 spl, which I have used extensively, its weight, and thickness give it very good penetration with expansion.

The ST is not designed to meet LE criteria, but it performs well in unobstructed shots to flesh and bone. If one does not see a need to shoot thru barriers, then it will do just fine. And, it may be hard for a civilian to explain SD if they have barriers between them and the other guy. It is a possibility, but a remote one.

I have some of the old Silver Tips in rifle ammunition around the house, both some .30-40 factory loads in 220 grain Silver Tip spitzer guise and some component Winchester 220 grain Silver Tip spitzers just like the factory .30-40 loads, put up in the yellow Winchester Western box. Got a bunch of boxes of those long .30 Silver Tip bullets cheap on a close-out back in the early 1980s. Shot most of 'em up in the .30-40 and the .30-06.

"The BG was hit in the buttock with a 185 +P 45 ACP silvertip. It penetrated and exited though his pelvis. He was able to swim across the Rio Grande and seek medical assistance in Mexico."

Now that's tough! And, is an experience one could do without.

Nice, I think I have one box of ought-six around here somewhere, old, old box, I'll have to look for it.

It might be interesting if you posted to Mas on GGGM, about the early ST's (handgun) miserable performance, I'm pretty sure he even wrote an "Ayoob File" about an ISP shooting using them (I could be wrong too ).

Nice, I think I have one box of ought-six around here somewhere, old, old box, I'll have to look for it.

It might be interesting if you posted to Mas on GGGM, about the early ST's (handgun) miserable performance, I'm pretty sure he even wrote an "Ayoob File" about an ISP shooting using them (I could be wrong too ).

Hey OD*, I think you are right. I wasn't saying you were wrong about the ST and Illinois SP, I was pointing out that the ST performed per it's design, which was not good for police purposes. But that was when they carried the S&W M39, and it was early for the use of the semi auto and the 9MM. I remember that article.

Maybe we can get Mas to give us a link to the original article on GGGM?

The Silvertip line of ammunition fails the FBI protocol much like it's many failures on the street. What I'd like to see is you supporting your view point with credible sources rather than anecdotes and he said.

I never said the Silver Tip Hollow Point was a magic bullet. The Silver tip design pre-dates the FBI protocol by almost a decade. It has seen several design changes in the last 25 years. You cannot replace poor tactics or poor shot placement with magic bullets.

I understand, Gman, I didn't take it personally. I don't doubt you are correct about it's failures being based on weight and velocity, I'm just curious as to whether I've actually read this or made it up.

Cant say much for other calibers but is very accurate in my 38 super. I have used it on coyote with great success. However no matter how well designed a round may be accuracy is key. And from what ive seen from my shooting I can keep these well within 3in at 25 ydis off hand. A hit is a hit and these do well for me and are very reliable. However if deep penetration and max expansion are desigered I prefer the xtp however I reload and can put these at the speed I desire for the task at hand.

I think Silvertips are an awesome performer in flesh. I believe the difference in it and the newer wonder rounds is that they were created for multiple barrier penetration. That's not a major issue for Joe or Judy public.

I agree with the part about barrier penetration not really being an issue in non-LEO situations....but didn't some of the old school rounds have problems like jacket separation and plugged hollow point cavities? From what I understand, the newer ammo was designed to address this.

I would think that bullet fragmentation would be a major issue in any self-defense scenario, police or otherwise. Same for plugged HP bullets that turn into ball when the hollow point fills up.

Because the jello junkies need the work, and the manufactures need the sale. And... People need to believe that they have a magic bullet.

This helps psychologically with confidence level, and, to help justify the much greater cost of the designer bullet.

I would also add that people need to believe that their magic bullet can make up for their lack of practice and concerns about marksmanship/shot placement. One Silvertip delivered by a defender who can hit with it is more effective than half a box of Gold Dots fearfully sprayed all over the neighborhood, but I wonder how many people remember that.

Cant say much for other calibers but is very accurate in my 38 super. I have used it on coyote with great success. However no matter how well designed a round may be accuracy is key. And from what ive seen from my shooting I can keep these well within 3in at 25 ydis off hand. A hit is a hit and these do well for me and are very reliable. However if deep penetration and max expansion are desigered I prefer the xtp however I reload and can put these at the speed I desire for the task at hand.

I'm envious. I'd love a .38 Super. I think it'd be both shooting and handloading fun. What sort of .38 Super do you have and what do Silver Tips do to coyotes?

I have a colt 70 series goverment model. Blue with checkerd ivory. Shes a real sweet heart. Its about my favorite round for reloading it can be downloaded to 9mm power or uploaded to 357. I like it most do to the accuracy and power level its a forgotten work horse. Great for many apps. Its realy destructive similar to 357 mag. One shot stop destroyed exit shoulder drt. As long as you know your limits and your weapon its excellant for the woods and great for edc as theres great load research to be used.

I never said the Silver Tip Hollow Point was a magic bullet. The Silver tip design pre-dates the FBI protocol by almost a decade. It has seen several design changes in the last 25 years. You cannot replace poor tactics or poor shot placement with magic bullets.