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Even if you go looking for violence, you are still the victim if you are the victim of it.

No, you aren't. You are enjoying the consequences of your efforts. It would be like a boxer complaining that he was punched by his opponent in the ring.

__________________All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

Nope! They are both equally cancer. I'll be glad to punch both...at the same time!

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

The only difference is marketing.

They both have no tolerance for ideological diversity or freedom of thought and both have no problem committing violence to enforce the version they want.

Do you think the world antifa want to build is going to be some shining bastion of equality and unlimited human potential?

You're both creating a false equivalence.

There is a major difference. The AntiFa hate people because of what they are, the Alt-Right Nazis etc, hate people because of who they are.

Let me explain.

AntiFa are against one particular ideological, Fascism. The claim that they "have no tolerance for ideological diversity or freedom of thought" on totally incorrect. They have no tolerance for those that use that ideological diversity or freedom of thought to push Fascism. AntiFa have no concerns if you want to be mainstream right-wing, libertarian, centre left or whatever, as long as you aren't supporting Fascism. If those supporting Fascism, stop doing so, then AntiFa will leave them alone. If supporters of Fascism all stopped supporting it, or at least pushing for it openly and at the highest levels of Government, AntiFa would collapse and go away too. The things that AntiFa is against is something that people chose to be, it is what they are.

The likes of the Alt-Right, KKK, Neo-Nazis, White Nationalists.... Thy hate people who are different to them, for how they were born. No-one chose to be born a Jew, or Black, or Gay, or Hispanic, but they are targeted for these things despite having no control over it. The Alt-Right truly does not tolerance ideological diversity or freedom of thought, they expect everyone to do and say the things they declare to be acceptable based on their one ideological, and if you don't follow them sand their beliefs, you are a target to be attacked and destroyed. They attack and hate people for who they are, who they were born. As long as there are non-white people, gay people, or people that refuse to support the Alt-Right cause, then they will be hated.

If you can't see the difference in hating a person because of the political ideology they have chosen to push and hating someone because of who they are born, well then you have a problem.

__________________It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtahI am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)My Apollo Page.

There is a major difference. The AntiFa hate people because of what they are, the Alt-Right Nazis etc, hate people because of who they are.

Let me explain.

AntiFa are against one particular ideological, Fascism. The claim that they "have no tolerance for ideological diversity or freedom of thought" on totally incorrect. They have no tolerance for those that use that ideological diversity or freedom of thought to push Fascism. AntiFa have no concerns if you want to be mainstream right-wing, libertarian, centre left or whatever, as long as you aren't supporting Fascism. If those supporting Fascism, stop doing so, then AntiFa will leave them alone. If supporters of Fascism all stopped supporting it, or at least pushing for it openly and at the highest levels of Government, AntiFa would collapse and go away too. The things that AntiFa is against is something that people chose to be, it is what they are.

The likes of the Alt-Right, KKK, Neo-Nazis, White Nationalists.... Thy hate people who are different to them, for how they were born. No-one chose to be born a Jew, or Black, or Gay, or Hispanic, but they are targeted for these things despite having no control over it. The Alt-Right truly does not tolerance ideological diversity or freedom of thought, they expect everyone to do and say the things they declare to be acceptable based on their one ideological, and if you don't follow them sand their beliefs, you are a target to be attacked and destroyed. They attack and hate people for who they are, who they were born. As long as there are non-white people, gay people, or people that refuse to support the Alt-Right cause, then they will be hated.

If you can't see the difference in hating a person because of the political ideology they have chosen to push and hating someone because of who they are born, well then you have a problem.

Good explanation of AntiFa up there!!!!! Kind of Anti I am pro!!!!!

__________________There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Of course the boxer can complain about being punched in the face. There is no magic that stops that.

You like to take things literally just to "win" arguments, no matter how silly it looks.

Yes, they can complain, but their complaints are stupid and hold no value.

__________________All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

Antifa has a great message, a good motive. They are just dumb to think that violence will help get the message out there. Non-violence is more powerful than their violent methodology. They are misguided.

Alt-right, Nazi, White Nationalists have an evil message that is, in itself, one of violence and divisiveness. They are scumbags.

__________________All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

In this video the car heads fast straight down the street and appears to miss all the people when he could have gone up the sidewalk and hit plenty, and then slams straight into the ca

Oh for pity's sake. Get over it. The guy ran people down on purpose, so what he didn't go for the smaller targets to the side, he was aiming for the intersection with marchers in it.

Quote:

The license plate of this car says GODKP*E (where * = I don't know). I thought this was the driver's car earlier and assumed it was a nationalist because of the god reference (so sue me), so now I wonder if it still has anything to do with it. Maybe the car was the target, then he ran over the people while fleeing?

Vehicle aside, CNN's website is carrying a small photo of the alleged driver. While it's not definitive of course, the fellow's hairdo is distinctive enough perhaps to serve as a predictor of his sympathies.

Antifa has a great message, a good motive. They are just dumb to think that violence will help get the message out there. Non-violence is more powerful than their violent methodology. They are misguided.

Alt-right, Nazi, White Nationalists have an evil message that is, in itself, one of violence and divisiveness. They are scumbags.

I'll let it go for this thread and just say I know lots of free-thinking anarchists and love them to pieces. I've also witnessed disturbing rationalizations for ever-expanding lists of valid "enemies" ('subjecting others to wage slavery and theft of the public commons!' or shopping at a store on the day they don't want you to) and criticism or objections to their methods is a good way to get there. Like any ideology, there is a militant fringe.

It's difficult to tell; they all have the same haircut for some reason.

Guess we can wait until it is sorted out but there are numerous reports it is not Spencer.

Is this him?

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Antifa has a great message, a good motive. They are just dumb to think that violence will help get the message out there. Non-violence is more powerful than their violent methodology. They are misguided.

Alt-right, Nazi, White Nationalists have an evil message that is, in itself, one of violence and divisiveness. They are scumbags.

At least there are some people in this country willing to stand up to and confront Nazis. I find that admirable.

__________________"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

You value their whining that they got the fight that they sought? I guess we'll just have to disagree that their complaints have value.

__________________All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

You can assign all the value you want to anything you want. Your opinions are your own, as are your vapid attempts to justify them. But no one is under any obligation to assign those any value, either.

There is a major difference. The AntiFa hate people because of what they are, the Alt-Right Nazis etc, hate people because of who they are.

Let me explain.

AntiFa are against one particular ideological, Fascism. The claim that they "have no tolerance for ideological diversity or freedom of thought" on totally incorrect. They have no tolerance for those that use that ideological diversity or freedom of thought to push Fascism. AntiFa have no concerns if you want to be mainstream right-wing, libertarian, centre left or whatever, as long as you aren't supporting Fascism. If those supporting Fascism, stop doing so, then AntiFa will leave them alone. If supporters of Fascism all stopped supporting it, or at least pushing for it openly and at the highest levels of Government, AntiFa would collapse and go away too. The things that AntiFa is against is something that people chose to be, it is what they are.

The likes of the Alt-Right, KKK, Neo-Nazis, White Nationalists.... Thy hate people who are different to them, for how they were born. No-one chose to be born a Jew, or Black, or Gay, or Hispanic, but they are targeted for these things despite having no control over it. The Alt-Right truly does not tolerance ideological diversity or freedom of thought, they expect everyone to do and say the things they declare to be acceptable based on their one ideological, and if you don't follow them sand their beliefs, you are a target to be attacked and destroyed. They attack and hate people for who they are, who they were born. As long as there are non-white people, gay people, or people that refuse to support the Alt-Right cause, then they will be hated.

If you can't see the difference in hating a person because of the political ideology they have chosen to push and hating someone because of who they are born, well then you have a problem.

The problem with you're explanation is that you think that White Nationalists hate people who are different from them, that they target people for intrinsic qualities over which they don't have any control. White Nationalists don't hate. Maybe Nazis and KKK do but White Nationalists want White ethnostates. That's all. No hate required for that. Condemning White Christians who want an ethnostate for their people is like condemning Zionists who want an ethnostate for their people.

Your description and defense of the Antifa is both insightful and problematic. Problematic in that it can easily be reworked as a defense of McCarthyism or the John Birch Society (if the JBS had been violent extremists). Watch:

AntiFa The John Birch Society are is against one particular ideological, Fascism Communism. The claim that they "have no tolerance for ideological diversity or freedom of thought" on totally incorrect. They have no tolerance for those that use that ideological diversity or freedom of thought to push Fascism Communism. AntiFa Birchers have no concerns if you want to be mainstream right-wing, libertarian, centre left or whatever, as long as you aren't supporting Fascism Communism. If those supporting Fascism Communism, stop doing so, then AntiFa Birchers will leave them alone. If supporters of Fascism Communism all stopped supporting it, or at least pushing for it openly and at the highest levels of Government, AntiFa Birchers would collapse and go away too. The things that AntiFa Birchers is against is something that people chose to be, it is what they are.

It's also insightful because it's true. There isn't any Communist movement to speak of anymore and that did cause the demise of the John Birch Society.

So what you have done here is argue that there's nothing wrong with hating communists with a passion and if it is necessary to beat up Jews who support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state to stop the spread of communism, then it is the moral thing to do.

Your description and defense of the Antifa is both insightful and problematic. Problematic in that it can easily be reworked as a defense of McCarthyism or the John Birch Society (if the JBS had been violent extremists). Watch:

It's only problematic if you willfully ignore the context. If, while opening a letter with a letter opener, I were to comment, "Letter openers are really nice," it would be rather absurd to respond to that by saying, "Your statement is problematic because a letter opener can also be used to stab someone in the eye."

The problem with you're explanation is that you think that White Nationalists hate people who are different from them, that they target people for intrinsic qualities over which they don't have any control. White Nationalists don't hate. Maybe Nazis and KKK do but White Nationalists want White ethnostates. That's all. No hate required for that. Condemning White Christians who want an ethnostate for their people is like condemning Zionists who want an ethnostate for their people.

Your description and defense of the Antifa is both insightful and problematic. Problematic in that it can easily be reworked as a defense of McCarthyism or the John Birch Society (if the JBS had been violent extremists). Watch:

AntiFa The John Birch Society are is against one particular ideological, Fascism Communism. The claim that they "have no tolerance for ideological diversity or freedom of thought" on totally incorrect. They have no tolerance for those that use that ideological diversity or freedom of thought to push Fascism Communism. AntiFa Birchers have no concerns if you want to be mainstream right-wing, libertarian, centre left or whatever, as long as you aren't supporting Fascism Communism. If those supporting Fascism Communism, stop doing so, then AntiFa Birchers will leave them alone. If supporters of Fascism Communism all stopped supporting it, or at least pushing for it openly and at the highest levels of Government, AntiFa Birchers would collapse and go away too. The things that AntiFa Birchers is against is something that people chose to be, it is what they are.

It's also insightful because it's true. There isn't any Communist movement to speak of anymore and that did cause the demise of the John Birch Society.

So what you have done here is argue that there's nothing wrong with hating communists with a passion and if it is necessary to beat up Jews who support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state to stop the spread of communism, then it is the moral thing to do.

Well, I wouldn't say that he is arguing that position. But the example is illustrative in demonstrating how dangerously broad an interpretation of any raison d'être can get.

But again, I recognize this is hardly the moment for making fine distinctions since there's a celebratory and affirming atmosphere towards punching Nazis. Pointing out warnings to heed just spoils the fun and revelry.

What do you mean by have value? If you have two people with one complaint that has value and one that doesn't, what do you do different?

I listen to the one who has the complaint which carries value. The other person I ignore or roll my eyes at.

__________________All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

It's only problematic if you willfully ignore the context. If, while opening a letter with a letter opener, I were to comment, "Letter openers are really nice," it would be rather absurd to respond to that by saying, "Your statement is problematic because a letter opener can also be used to stab someone in the eye."

Truth be told, it's only problematic if you think McCarthyism was a bad thing. I don't know what you're getting at with this letter opener analogy.

Well, I wouldn't say that he is arguing that position. But the example is illustrative in demonstrating how dangerously broad an interpretation of any raison d'être can get.

But again, I recognize this is hardly the moment for making fine distinctions since there's a celebratory and affirming atmosphere towards punching Nazis. Pointing out warnings to heed just spoils the fun and revelry.

No, I am not any fun at parties in case you were wondering :9.

Would it still be fun if Zionists were called Nazis and then beating them up because, er, because they're Nazis?

I'll let it go for this thread and just say I know lots of free-thinking anarchists and love them to pieces. I've also witnessed disturbing rationalizations for ever-expanding lists of valid "enemies" ('subjecting others to wage slavery and theft of the public commons!' or shopping at a store on the day they don't want you to) and criticism or objections to their methods is a good way to get there. Like any ideology, there is a militant fringe.

The problem here is that Anarchy != AntiFa, and AntiFa != Anarchy.

While there might be some cross over in groups, Anarchy is an Ideology, AntiFa is not, it's an opposition to an ideology. AntiFa members can have a diverse number of ideological backgrounds, the thing that holds them together is their hated of Fascism.

It's similar to the Allies during WW2 and the current Republican Party.

In WW2 the Allies were made up of a number of different countries with differing ideological ideas banded together to defeat the Axis countries.

Today we see a party that was glued together by their shared hate of anything Obama and Hillary struggling to actually govern because there is no shared ideology between those on the Centre Right Moderate Republicans and those on the Far Right Tea Party Republicans.

AntiFa is the same thing, hence why when the threat of Fascism is gone, it'll fall to pieces into arguing factions just as the WW2 Allies did. Being AntiFa doesn't give you anything to build an ideology around, just as the Republicans are finding when they try and build policy based on anti-Obama.

__________________It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtahI am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)My Apollo Page.

The problem with you're explanation is that you think that White Nationalists hate people who are different from them, that they target people for intrinsic qualities over which they don't have any control. White Nationalists don't hate. Maybe Nazis and KKK do but White Nationalists want White ethnostates. That's all. No hate required for that. Condemning White Christians who want an ethnostate for their people is like condemning Zionists who want an ethnostate for their people.

You're missing the crucial element in there though. Why do they want a White ethnostate if not for a fear of/hate of those that aren't white?

Quote:

Your description and defense of the Antifa is both insightful and problematic. Problematic in that it can easily be reworked as a defense of McCarthyism or the John Birch Society (if the JBS had been violent extremists).

The issue is that you're mixing the message and the methods. There is nothing wrong with being anti-communism, having a purge of anyone that is deemed to be one.... not so good. Likewise, nothing is wrong with being anti-Fascism, but if AntiFa were to call for a purge of all suspected Fascists, well that should be, and hopefully would be treated with the same disdain as we treat White Supremacists.

However, having said that, would you really say that McCarthyism was as bad as National Socialism, or that the JBS was as bad as the Nazis?

Quote:

So what you have done here is argue that there's nothing wrong with hating communists with a passion

Which is quite right. Nothing wrong with it and it used to be one of the USA's favourite pastimes.

Quote:

and if it is necessary to beat up Jews who support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state to stop the spread of communism, then it is the moral thing to do.

I think however that you will be hard pressed to show exactly where I said that the use of violence to push the message is in any way acceptable.

__________________It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtahI am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)My Apollo Page.