The problem is while yes both Caldari & Minmatar can run plexes easier, the bulk of the whines about it being unfair are because they want to just easily farm plexes as well. It's not that they can't get PVP, but they want PVE made easier

No. You miss the point. But make them easier is what CCP is planning to do by removing e-war. The most popular fix presented by players is to enforce killing all NPCs to capture a plex. Thats not making PVE easier for farmer alts now is it?

I've mentioned several times in other posts, that I think all NPC's should have to be killed to complete a plex. If you combine removing EW with killing all NPC's that's decent fix to the farming issues of noob alts.

It then means that people have to fly ships capable of running the plexes but it doesn't mean they will fight or not farm. It just moves the farming from noob alts in Vigils to more skilled alts.

Also the timer running backwards would be a nice touch, as it would help quite a lot with the undesirable job of defending systems.

Today I killed a noob farmer alt and in less than 10 mins he was already reshipped and back to farming the same plex. He of course ran from me the 1st time and I got lucky catching him at the planet he ran to. I figured it wasn't worth the effort to chase a second time...

At the very least having the timer run backwards would of made him have to start over again.

Posted - 2012.06.13 20:02:00 -
[62] - Quote
CCP should use modified sleeper / incursion AI for most if not all PVE conflicts. Redoing all the missions might take some time, but it is time to do it.Karash AmeriusOperative, Sutoka

Posted - 2012.06.13 21:57:00 -
[65] - Quote
Requiring all the rats to be killed is helpful and I support it. But its not the begin all and end all. We need to make plexxing the pvp mechanic that decides sov where as missions are the pve activity.

Missions are pve in faction war. I don't mind that people try to run missions and warp off when pvpers come. That is how pve in low sec is supposed to work.

Plexxing should be about pvp.

If we must shoot all the rats people will just use larger ships with a cloak and mwd to get by gate camps in low sec. It will be an improvement in that it will be closer in theory to pvp. However they will still warp off when pvp comes- unless they can fully fit their ships for pvp (the rats are nerfed) and the efficiency of running plexes is better for those who stay and fight instead of those who warp off. We are a far way off from that right now.

2 changes could bring us much closer:

1) The timer countdown idea (the timer starts counting back down automatically when you get chased out of a plex) and

2) a notification when complexes are attacked are what we need.

Once they make these changes, efficient plexing will likely require pvp.

If they do make these changes and plexing does in fact require pvp then ccp should increase the amount of lp that plexing pays. Because overall I can still make more lp per hour running missions than I can running plexes. And if they make the plexing really involve pvp then there will be more risk.Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pvehttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Posted - 2012.06.13 21:57:00 -
[66] - Quote
I have a feeling CCP is removing the NPC EW for all and allowing the speed tanking to take place for a while to see if the Amarr / Minmatar situation balances out on it's own.

If it does, which is likely, they can then more easily up the difficulty factor for everyone.

If it doesn't, they may have to go another (more involved) path.When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.

Requiring all the rats to be killed is helpful and I support it. But its not the begin all and end all. We need to make plexxing the pvp mechanic that decides sov where as missions are the pve activity.

Just be careful what you wish for. This is what the Incursion folks wanted to help balance out the sites: NMC was never run because you basically had to kill every NPC, OTA was blitzed because you could kill just four NPCs to complete the site. So CCP rebalanced it to require all ships to be killed, then added more dangerous ships into the mix. OTA went from "baby can do it" to "deadly". The word "subtle" does not appear in the CCP vocabulary. The only "adjustment" tool they have is a 500lb hammer.

Cearain wrote:

1) The timer countdown idea (the timer starts counting back down to zero automatically when you get chased out of a plex)

If you want PvP, just stick around the site long enough to get that time down due to your presence. This opens the situation up to games of defenders spreading out their forces to reclaim sites, with strike teams from the attackers claiming sites and heading out to attack the small forces left behind to reclaim sites.

Requiring all the rats to be killed is helpful and I support it. But its not the begin all and end all. We need to make plexxing the pvp mechanic that decides sov where as missions are the pve activity.

Just be careful what you wish for. This is what the Incursion folks wanted to help balance out the sites: NMC was never run because you basically had to kill every NPC, OTA was blitzed because you could kill just four NPCs to complete the site. So CCP rebalanced it to require all ships to be killed, then added more dangerous ships into the mix. OTA went from "baby can do it" to "deadly". The word "subtle" does not appear in the CCP vocabulary. The only "adjustment" tool they have is a 500lb hammer.

Cearain wrote:

1) The timer countdown idea (the timer starts counting back down to zero automatically when you get chased out of a plex)

If you want PvP, just stick around the site long enough to get that time down due to your presence. This opens the situation up to games of defenders spreading out their forces to reclaim sites, with strike teams from the attackers claiming sites and heading out to attack the small forces left behind to reclaim sites.

Cearain wrote:

2) a notification when complexes are attacked

That's a worthwhile effort.

Good points Mara.

Flying for amarr i already have to kill all the npcs before the next spawn or they will overwhelm me. My dps is sort of my tank. Other races may want to think twice.

What you say in response to the countdown idea is exactly what I hope ccp can turn faction war into. Right now though I would say I only get a fight for every 3rd plex I run. And I tend to run them in the more crowded systems. So if I was in any sort of back system I doubt anyone would even know I am there and the chances of having my plex interupted would probably be 1 in 10.

But this thread is filled with people complaining how dumb the AI is. Whether or not they are intended to be PVE areas, the fact is this thread exists because of dumb AI/Mechanics.

Not really. This thread exists because the npcs are unbalanced.

However the real test for ccp is not to make occupancy plexing a balanced pve game. It is to make it a balanced pvp game. They need to keep their eyes on that long term goal. IMO spending allot of time improving the rats ai really does not move things any closer to that goal.Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pvehttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

But this thread is filled with people complaining how dumb the AI is. Whether or not they are intended to be PVE areas, the fact is this thread exists because of dumb AI/Mechanics.

Edit: Also this:

Mutnin wrote:

I've mentioned several times in other posts, that I think all NPC's should have to be killed to complete a plex

There is a balance in requiring a bit of effort to run a plex vs making it a full time PVE profession. Even before you got LP's for plexes people used to farm plexes with noob alts to "win the war" .. even though it meant nothing.

Meaning there has always been a need to do away with the noob vigil alts farming Majors & Meds. Simply doing away with the EW & making you kill all the NPC's requires that you bring a ship/gang capable of running the plex & killing the NPC's. Yet doesn't turn it into sleeper/incursion AI that requires full bore carebear PVE ship fits.

I have a feeling CCP is removing the NPC EW for all and allowing the speed tanking to take place for a while to see if the Amarr / Minmatar situation balances out on it's own.

CCP doesnt care about who wins and loses, nor are they specifically changing anything at the moment just to favor one side or another, even if they're the underdog.

The E-war change is happening for one reason and one reason alone - many in the community have rightfully complained that the NPC E-war is a PvP deterrent, and interferes with PvP engagements that would be had if not for the NPC interference. The CSM took this feedback to the summit, we asked them to look into what it took to remove E-War, they did, and now its being implemented.Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.

Actually, CCP doesnt have to copy existing Sleeper / incursion AI, they can create custom NPC's for just about any situation. They don't have to be that tanky even, they can sometimes just be a lot smarter. Their stated goal of an NPC rebalance would actually be to ensure that the NPC's could be fought using PvP fits, and PvP fits specifically.Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.

I have a feeling CCP is removing the NPC EW for all and allowing the speed tanking to take place for a while to see if the Amarr / Minmatar situation balances out on it's own.

CCP doesnt care about who wins and loses, nor are they specifically changing anything at the moment just to favor one side or another, even if they're the underdog.

The E-war change is happening for one reason and one reason alone - many in the community have rightfully complained that the NPC E-war is a PvP deterrent, and interferes with PvP engagements that would be had if not for the NPC interference. The CSM took this feedback to the summit, we asked them to look into what it took to remove E-War, they did, and now its being implemented.

Won't solve a damn thing. If there is one thing that is obvious is that 99.9% of the plexers aren't there to PVP but just to farm LP and warp out as soon as you are in their plex. The only satisfaction you can get is from the odd whining plex'ers who ends up complaining about how you suck for trying to prevent them to farm winmatar LP.

Plex's were nice for PVP before the patch because people who did them usually wanted PVP, those who wanted LP's did missions. Now no one does missions and all the PVE'ers went to plexing. You know what would really inspire PVP?

Remove the LP rewards from plex'ing and nerf missions and double the LP rewards from kills. But i guess this might get exploited as insurance repay + LP might be worth more than the ship.-Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily.

Easy solution: Keep ganking them for easy kills and to earn your own LP. Eventually the risk will outweigh the reward.

Not when they warp out as soon as you come into the plex. They just log or move to another system and go again. This is the new version of the mission farming...

It's not like mission farming - Many FW missions are easier as there can be only 1 target to kill to complete the mission if the player knows which missions to pick and which to ignore.Very easy to get in and out without being attacked.Add to that 90% of the missions were done in Stealth Bombers so they could just cloak up and waste your time.FW Missions did not provide PvP to those looking for it.

With a plex you know they are stuck there for a minimum of 10min. This gives you the chance to get a fleet up and deny them the plexes almost everywhere they go - set up on the escape routes and catch them. If they change system - follow and repeat. The chances of pew have increased lots since the patch. I used to goto low sec and plex and not see anyone.Now there is lots of fun and games while plexing.

That's a lot efforts just to catch one guy. If anything wasting so many resources just to get one shows how imbalanced it is. And personally i'm currently having a much better success rate of catching mission runners over plex'ers. You see in a mission all i do is enter the mission with an inty , disrupt the SB , shoot and its dead. Sure the missioner can escape by using dscan but everything a missioner can escape from a plex'e can do far easier.

Yes this is the kind of fail fits you are fighting in plex's. These fits have only one purpose: tanking and running. In a mission you actually need SOME dps.-Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily.

COPYRIGHT NOTICEEVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.