...because you both
have spent a lot of time with Maharaji and I value
your perspectives.

For years I have struggled with the fact that
most premies repect for Maharaji is manifestly
tinged with fear. This started with the
uncomfortable realisation that my own devotion for
him was also fearful. A lot of premies are afraid
to explore the possibility that they can
spiritually progess in their lives without
acknowledging him as some kind of divine authority
and Master. They seem to think that if indeed he is
God then it is appropriate to have some fear. This
makes them at least hedge their bets in case they
are wrong - this means to me that they really are
not in touch with their hearts. They cannot make a
heartfelt decision because with Maharaji's help
they have lost touch with these fundamental free
feelings.

My heart has always told me to reject fear.
Actually as a child my mother told me that God was
love and that 'perfect love casteth out fear'. I
embraced that feeling intuitively and something in
my 'pre-rational' inner child knew this was true.
It is the desire to protect my inner child from the
bonds of fear that encourages me to trust my
judgement to go it alone and continue my search for
God, truth and also - most importantly - to stand
up and take an active stance to expose falsity.

My teetering premie friends are finding it so
hard to distinguish what their hearts really are
telling them I think - preferring for the time, to
take time out to just consider their inner
conflicts - my feeling is that Maharaji has been
the focus of our emotions and so-called heart
aspirations for so long - and has said that
knowledge is the ultimate 'heart feeling' over and
over 'I am the voice of your heart! -I am the voice
of your heart! I am the voice of your heart!' -
that our true little hearts voice, that of this
inner child in us all (that cannot be intimidated )
has been overwhelmed and drowned out.

I am saddened to see that so many friends who
are premies are still reluctant to question
Maharaji and explore life in other ways because
they are so worried that he might be the Lord and
so they are scared to entertain doubts . It might
sound strange but this is what a growing number of
premies who I talk with clearly feel. This fearful
possibility seems to hold some great power over
them and to at a stroke defeat all their better
judgement. They really are scared of Maharaji and I
don't see him doing anything to discourage
this.

I tell them that if he is God then he may do as
he wishes with my soul for my questioning is
totally sincerely motivated - while I am here I am
not going to go against my conscience or what my
heart tells me. And I cannot continue as a premie
with fear in my heart towards him.

If anything I feel I am doing Gods work by
standing up to this man who seems to have redefined
for so many people the meaning of their hearts and
minds.

The very fact that
doubt is and always has been verboten (and how!)
marks the Maha out for what he really is.
.
.
Just what kind of 'Lord' is it that's frightened of
letting people deal with their doubts?

Im not so sure your premie friends are
living in as much fear of Maharaji as you think
they are, although I don't deny that M's whole trip
is based on fear. In my opinion, what they fear
most is the prospect of re-claiming their lives.
Having bought into Maharajis view of the
world, many long-term premies fear that their lives
will no longer have any meaning without M at its
center. Rather than face that prospect, they find
it is easier to ignore and dismiss any and all
criticisms of M, so that they can continue playing
his game. However, Ms game will not go on
forever, because his greed and depravity is
accelerating his own self-destruction.

In the meantime, perhaps its best not to
try too hard to convince your premie friends of
anything. Let your friendship, your family, your
career, and your passion for life be a
demonstration that there is meaning, beauty, joy
and love as well as some pain and suffering and
doubts and unpleasantness in your life after and
without M. He has no power over our lives other
than what we ourselves grant him.

I think the fear
people who follow Maharaji feel, is real, and I
agree it is the basis of the Maharaji cult. It is
just so ironic when they talk about love all the
time, but really, it's fear that is the binding
force.

I think it just depends on your own background
as to how the fear manifests. I think many of us
who became premies came from the Christian
tradition. I came from a traditional Catholic
tradition, in which there is a mixed message, that
God if love, but he is also vengeful if you cross
him and the stakes are high. Maharaji basically
preached the same thing. There is a beautiful love
inside you, but if you leave it, if you doubt, you
risk losing it forever and not even knowing it, and
also you might just waste your entire life and end
up in hell.

So, if somebody has been a premie for decades,
this is pretty much ingrained, and probably not
even conscious. So there is a lot of fear, and it
seems easier to just continue to believe.

Then, I think you have to add to that what
Michael said, that questioning your involvement,
means having to look at yourself, to look at what
you have been holding on to, and risk letting go of
it. It's very scary.

I spoke with somebody I know on the telephone a
few months ago. This person had rejected Maharaji,
but now is 'sort of' still involved. His whole
rationale was that he was incapable of
understanding what was going on, so it was better
to believe in it than not believe in it. It was
sad.

I remember hearing
about the 'rotting vegetables' satsang, but I think
that was pulled out of circulation a long time
ago.

In recent videos, M. has said several times,
that he has never claimed anyone would go to hell
if they stopped practicing Knowledge. In fact, he
has said 'What happens to someone if they stop
practicing Knowlege? Nothing. They just go back to
being the way they were before they got
Knowledge.'

When he said that, I felt he was actually
responding to the things that have been said about
the 'rotten vegetables' Satsang on this forum.
There is a lot or 'revisionism' happening
currently. They are trying to keep people from
leaving and dropping out. He's appealing to people
who are waivering. M's choice of words are
interesting. '...they just go back to being the way
they were before they got Knowledge'.

Considering how confused, unhappy and miserable
many people were when they came to recieve special
K, it's a gentle way to say 'you'll be worse off
than you are now'. He also still tells that
favorite story of his, about the premie woman who
stopped practicing, who then claimed her entire
life just seemed to turn on her. He often IMPLIES
that your life will fall to pieces without him, but
stops short of actually saying it. It's like there
is an assumption that it's understood. He knows
people remember his older satsangs, he just puts a
gentler spin on it nowadays, love mixed with fear.
It's interesting how you point out that love and
fear are often mixed together, like it is in
christianity for many people. And Radhasoami
tradition has a strong christian roots built into
it.

When we were still in the committee meetings,
there was one Industrial Strength Church Lady, with
whom I could agree on almost nothing. I was shocked
at how much I liked her. She toed the party line,
but she also bent over backwards, to try to
accomodate me and get me to participate. But every
time, I ultimately felt I was being made to
suppress my will and my true feelings and go with
the group, supposedly to do what the Master wanted,
to waste my time and money on things I could not
agree with.

One day, I pointed out a contradiction in
something M. had once said, and the Industrial
Strenth Church Lady said, ever so reasonably, 'So?
Are you saying that M. isn't entitled to change his
mind, just like you or me?' She explained, ever so
kindly and reaonalby, how someone had said that to
her once, when she was confused by M. starting to
use the internet, after ridiculing it as a vehicle
for propigation. She said it was a great
realisation for her, that M. was allowed to change
his mind. She seemed to hope that I would think so
to.

My point for mentioning this is, it's not easy
for many premies to reason their way out. They have
doubts, but those doubts are addressed
superficially, along with warnings about not
letting 'the doubt maker' destroy your wonderful
experience. Meanwhile, M. is 'changing his mind'
about his history.

In recent years, when M. would keep admonishing
us not to have doubts, it drove me crazy. I kept
thinking, 'Doubt WHAT? My breath? What is he
talking about?' For me, my focus was more on the
meditation than him. I hadn't gotten as big a dose
of bhakti ju-ju as earlier premies. The committee
meetings really showed this up for me. Perfectly
reasonable people would go along with bad ideas,
would admit they were bad from a business
perspective, but then just say, that because it is
what the master wants, I should go along with it
anyway. 'It doesn't matter if no new people come to
video events, because we are doing service because
that is what M. wants us to do. I have no problem
with that...', implying that perhaps there was
something wrong with me. And there was. I was
listening to my heart, and it wasn't syncronized...
my REAL feelings were, 'Watch out here, watch out,
don't go down this road with them.'

My point is, that premies have been trained to
accept contradicions. M. contradicts himself all
the time, so it's hard to pin him down, which
allows him often to seem to have it both ways,
which is, whatever way suits him at any particular
time. People under the spell of the Radhasoami
Whammy have a difficult time seeing their way out,
and are afraid, of M. himself and of having a life
without M. as the center, especially if they
believe he is the one and only way to happines. For
many it seems safer to ignor their doubts. They
can't see an alternative.

Their fears can also become self-fulfilling
prophices, because they only what they are
conditioned to see. If you believe that leaving M.
will cause your life to turn on you, then you will
look for that evidence and find it, interpreting
everything that happens through that filter. If you
don't believe it, you won't look for it.

The best way to help them over that fear is to
show them that people can leave, without their
lives 'turning' on them, and still be happy. That
Life itself is the gift they recieved, and isn't
dependent on a third party. Our own journey's are
probably the best way to share that.

Maybe the cult puts
so little demand on people nowadays, that the cost
of being in the cult is very low, or they are not
as visible. Therefore, the need to scare people
into staying is also less, because the misery of
being a premie is less. I know for me, at the time
I left, I was so miserable being a premie that I
didn't care if I was going to hell. It had to get
pretty bad for me to abandon something I had put so
much time, energy and soul into. Maybe if I wasn't
so miserable, if being a premie didn't cost me that
much, I might not have left.

In recent videos, M. has said several times,
that he has never claimed anyone would go to hell
if they stopped practicing Knowledge. In fact, he
has said 'What happens to someone if they stop
practicing Knowlege? Nothing. They just go back to
being the way they were before they got
Knowledge.'

Maharaji is, of course, lying. I personally
heard him say both the 'going to hell' and the
'rotting vegetables' and also the 'smashing into a
thousand pieces' threats about what would happen if
you left.

Frankly, I find it hard to believe people would
think it was okay for Maharaji to 'change his mind'
about something like that. I mean, you used to go
to hell if you stopped practicing knowledge, but
not anymore. Or, Maharaji used to be the Lord of
the Universe, but he decided not to be anymore.
That's bad enough.

But what I think is harder for premies to accept
is that Maharaji is now lying. Changing your mind
is one thing, but lying is another, especially
about something as important as that. So, now
Maharaji is lying about never having claimed to be
God, and he's lying about never having made threats
about going to hell if you stop practicing
knowledge, among other things.

Maybe the cult puts so little demand on
people nowadays, that the cost of being in the cult
is very low, or they are not as visible. Therefore,
the need to scare people into staying is also less,
because the misery of being a premie is less. I
know for me, at the time I left, I was so miserable
being a premie that I didn't care if I was going to
hell. It had to get pretty bad for me to abandon
something I had put so much time, energy and soul
into. Maybe if I wasn't so miserable, if being a
premie didn't cost me that much, I might not have
left.

Yes Joe. Demands aren't put on most people. M.
has said in video's about 'participation', that if
you don't want to participate, not only should you
not do so, but, please DON'T, because you'll just
get in the way of people who do. At the Longbeach
event, he encouraged participation, but said he
realized not everyone could be generals in his
army, or even footsoldiers. That if some people
felt they just wanted to practice knowledge and get
on with their lives, that was ok, too. Keep in
mind, many of those premies who don't want to be
generals or footsoldiers feel GUILTY, and send a
monthly check as a way of participating. I know I
did. So if the ju-ju only accomplished that much,
it did something. But people aren't openly coerced.
They are openly 'encouraged to participate'.

No more talk about handing over the 'reigns of
your life'. Checks, and even monthly automatic
deposits from your credit card, will do nicely,
thank you. And a nice little $10.00 gift
certificate with your next elan vital merchandise
catalog, to say 'Thank You' for your participation.
And of course, you get your tax deduction.

Once M. made his fortune on the backs of the
ashram premies, he only needed the rest to make
donations to keep it going. And if the donors were
just fringe premies, that was fine, their money was
as good as anyones. Elan Vital certainly hasn't
wanted to scare them off. There was hardly even any
waiting in line at the last programs I attended.
It's all smooth and easy.

Joe said:Maharaji is, of course, lying. I personally
heard him say both the 'going to hell' and the
'rotting vegetables' and also the 'smashing into a
thousand pieces' threats about what would happen if
you left.

That's interesting, because I have heard him say
MANY times, that he NEVER said anyone would go to
hell if they stopped practicing special K.

Joe said:Frankly, I find it hard to believe people would
think it was okay for Maharaji to 'change his mind'
about something like that. I mean, you used to go
to hell if you stopped practicing knowledge, but
not anymore. Or, Maharaji used to be the Lord of
the Universe, but he decided not to be anymore.
That's bad enough.

But what I think is harder for premies to
accept is that Maharaji is now lying. Changing your
mind is one thing, but lying is another, especially
about something as important as that. So, now
Maharaji is lying about never having claimed to be
God, and he's lying about never having made threats
about going to hell if you stop practicing
knowledge, among other things.

How do premies reconcile that?

When the Church Lady told me about her
relization that M. was allowed to change his mind,
it was obviously a big realization for her. In so
far as people just accept that, it gives M. a lot
of wiggle room. Perhaps she was relieved that she
didn't have to reconcile contradictions, she could
now just say he changed his mind. Very
convenient.

Yet, I'm sure many premies are bothered about
lies, when they see things being lied about. I know
lies bother me. I can forgive mistakes, but lies
are terrible. It makes you start to wonder what you
can believe, it eats away at M's credibility.

Many premies had no other sources of
information, so they would just ignore some things
and live with others, because what could they do?
But now websites like EPO are providing new
information, and people are rethinking their
involvement. But precisely because they did have it
'easier' than the ashram premies (at least the
fringe premies had it easier), they aren't as
angry. They may have had some good experiences,
too, all mixed in with things they didn't like, but
tolerated. But now they may be re-thinking it, and
wondering if they can separate the good from the
bad. Did you read what Roy said in his post, about
Psycologist William James, regarding people hanging
on to religion because of an initial experience,
even after the religion no longer serves them? I
think that is where many of the premies are at.

Many of the premies formed an emotional bond
with M. They hang on out of habit, and because they
have yet to see another way. They may remember the
old satsangs subconciously, but their concious
minds say look, it's better now. They are used to
making excuses and accepting contradictions. But
when they start questioning, and learn there are
other sources of information, many come here.

That's why I've been feeling that it's not
necessarily good to focus on telling people they
must stop meditation, that insisting or implying
that they should renounce everything they ever
experienced that was positive while with M could
cause more confusion for some people. For other
people, stoping meditation might be good, or even
essential. But I think people need to decide that
for themselves. There are no one-size-fits-all
solutions. The solutions are as diverse as the
experiences of everyone here.

Lots of the positive things people may have
experienced actually came from themselves, not M.
Even the good things M. may have said, that I
liked, have been said by other people too, without
baggage like 'Think of ME when you die'. One of the
best pieces of advice I've had from M. was 'Listen
to your heart'. I did, and it said I didn't need a
third party to interpret.

I think the best thing we can do for new people
here is help them sort themselves out. They have
already been told for too long what they should do.
They can find their own answers here, by talking to
us. There is a very diverse spectrum of the premie
experience here, and I think there is help here
from many different perpectives. A story for
everyone.

That's why I post here. What I have to say won't
appeal to everyone, but it will appeal to some. I
think that is true for most of us. Talking about my
experience leaving is my way of holding the door
open, for anyone who might think ''hey, THAT exit
looks good...''

The same techniques
to control through fear have been used by men like
Adolf Hitler and Jo Stalin and many many more,
including serial killers .They are happy when they
make their victims suffer and you've read the
stories. Only when you're still holding onto, or
letting go of old values does all this heart thing
surface so intensely, the Maharaji self enrichment
cult is full of fear and unfullfilment. this is due
to the impossibility to become perfect,or by doing
whatever he says will get you feeling good, because
he is perfect, it is more emptiness and what he is
calling Knowledge will do nothing for you, but fill
his empty existance with material wealth. When you
feel good there is a temptation to attribute it to
someone you like, so who do serial killers
attribute their good heart feelings to when the
enjoy watching someone suffer?. I don't have any
answers myself and I am always looking for a way to
fill the emptiness when it is there and not blame
others for the absence , so I take each moment as a
new one and pray God will fill the empty space, and
I'll feel happy again and take these moments for
silence and focus on how good it feels to be loved,
and not to feel loss, and feel warm , alive and
good, without paying for it with money. .M.

Your statement above is right on the money (no
pun intended). I spent time with M (never x-rated)
and because of the mystery (and security) he placed
about himself, I have to say I feared him
personally.

So I never spoke to him, while a lot of other
premies felt free to talk and he'd make jokes, etc.
Me? He scared me to the bone, but then, again, a
red flag must have been flying high inside of me
because my father was an extraordinary batterer,
controller, egomaniac, psychopath. Yes, red flags
were flying, even while I worshipped his crusty
feet!

Me too. I was
terrified of him. The church-ladies that I met last
year also had some fear not so much of him but of
themselves. They are 70s premies and remember the
''rotting vegetables'' satsang even if only
subconsciously. Since exiting I have talked to
three of them on the phone and I came away feeling
that their biggest fear now is that they may be
wrong but cannot yet see an alternative.

In 1974 at the Copenhagen divine circus my lover
was assigned to do security service outside M's
hotal suite. As he stood outside the door it
suddenly burst open and Sampuranand came running
out screaming with M hot on his heels.

M pushed S to the floor and began to punch S in
the face viciously all the while screaming, ''You
stole my camera.''

S was sobbing and pleading and saying that he
had not stolen the camera. Marolyn appeared and
said, ''Your camera's still in the suitcase.''

M stopped hitting S and began to beg for his
forgiveness. Both men were in tears and hugging.
Marolyn said, ''The way you two are going on, you's
think you were queers.'' She went back into the
room and slammed the door.

My lover was totally devastated by this event
and lost all faith in M and eventually dropped out
altogether.

Me, silly gopi: I thought it was a lila and was
charmed by the story. I had just had darshan for
the first time and was hooked on the bhakti juju.

What story! A good
example of M's unpredictable and volitile behavior.
What an abusive little runt!

Not only was he punching his premie out, he and
Marolyn both expressing such hate talk! That's just
plain ignorance and bigotry, plain and simple. No
excuse. Sometimes I think homophobes are just
stupid. Vt passed the 1st civil union law last year
and whoa...the backlash and vile???!! Phew!

I was such a lila believer, too, every leaf that
moved...blaaaa

I like that bhakti juju expression. How does
that translate? My husband just said to me
yesterday while we were watching the movie
''Devil's Advocate'' something like ''oh that's bad
juju.'' I said to him, you been reading the
forum?:)))

I never got into the hindi words too much and
have forgotten the ones I knew.

Bhakti = sanskrit for
devotion but also has connotations (yes can you
believe it?) of ''participation.'' Bhakti was what
the gopis and Radha felt for Krishna (her brother -
yes!)

Alain Danielou, in his book ''Gods of Love and
Ecstasy,'' traces the Greek word ''bacchante'' back
to the sanskrit root. The bacchantes were the
devotees of Dionysus (known to the Romans as
Bacchus.)

Juju = voodoo, casting a spell, enchanting. The
Radhasoami cult gurus believe that the techniques
(kriyas) are worthless unless the guru awakes
bhakti in the student. Shri Hans used to say:
''Knowledge without love (bhakti) is dry. Love
without Knowledge is blind.''

OK, OK -so that may sound too new agey for your
sensitive stomach but this is a nevertheless a fair
description of a fairly fundamental part of us.
Call it what you like but there is an childish (not
in the puerile sense) core to even the oldest of
people. That's my observation.

When I was about 4 or 5 years old I had, like
you, a fresh positive easy 'innocent' attitude. I
see this all the time in my kids who are now at
that age. It is really refreshing to be with them
when they are at this relatively unspoiled stage -
kids are natural, totally uncynical and have a huge
ability to forgive, love and laugh (and cry of
course) and loads of other virtues that get
highjacked or buried in time. Get my drift now
?

I recognise that in many ways it behoves me to
hold on to those qualities within myself , if I
can, as an adult.
Not to sell out to someone elses ideas about who I
am. That is what I meant by 'inner child'. Not
some, vague wishy-washy new age speak. If you try
to put me in that bag I will object - because
that's not my trip - K?

Agree with you
Patrick. Inner child is part of us, there to
protect our interests...and the bit of me that
sounded the alarm bells about premiedom...ignore at
your peril gErRy (but you probably don't really, do
you?? xxx MW