If they change the ilvls in 25 man, then they must lower the difficulty of 10 man encounters. Remember how it was in Wotlk? 10 mans were a joke. By doing this, they will effectively kill 10 man guilds as 10 mans will be absolutely puggable and be something you do with your low geared alts. Indeed however the key word here is controversial, which suggests that it will have something to do with loot. I'm guessing though that they will settle on exclusive 25 man mounts, achievements and titles.

controversial.... that's the key word. I am guessing its higher ilvl items again. Which would suck.

I don't think so, immediately afterwards he says:

Could you give me a reason as to why 25man raids don't just straight up drop items that already are already 2/2 upgraded?
Because that would cause progression-oriented 10 player raids to feel like they had to switch to 25s to benefit from the ilevel.

One of the biggest reasons 25m is harder than 10m is just straight up the logistics. And I don't mean just recruiting 25 players as opposed to 10, I mean recruiting 25 skilled raiders as opposed to 10. The reason a 25m can just downsize to 10 and kill it is because if there are 25 players good enough to kill something on 25, that means there are 10 good enough to break off and kill it on 10.

That being said, I feel the greater coordination required between 25 players at once deserves some sort of higher quality reward, even if a minor one at best.

There never was a problem in wotlk with the ilvl difference the problem was 25m all the sweet items while 10m got the leftover shit, toc and icc are perfect examples.
If higher ilvl from 25m is what Blizzard is planning I will welcome the chance.

No problems with everyone being forced to raid 25m? Are you kidding?

Originally Posted by Immitis

actually it did cause problems it caused stat inflation

Also this. And since we have LFR now, each tier would have 4 ilvls (LFR, 10NM, 10HM/25NM, 25HM), so stat inflation would be even worse. In short, no frickin thank you.

So, 25man already drops more loot per player and is in general more forgiving (CRs, raid CDs, individual responsibility etc.), people still want "incentives" to keep them doing 25man? Fucking idiots is all I have to say. Why do you need that shit to keep doing 25 if that's what you fucking enjoy? If you prefer the 25 version, just fucking keep raiding that. You already have advantages over 10man, why the hell would you feel "forced" to switch into it?

So, 25man already drops more loot per player and is in general more forgiving (CRs, raid CDs, individual responsibility etc.), people still want "incentives" to keep them doing 25man? Fucking idiots is all I have to say. Why do you need that shit to keep doing 25 if that's what you fucking enjoy? If you prefer the 25 version, just fucking keep raiding that. You already have advantages over 10man, why the hell would you feel "forced" to switch into it?

So, 25man already drops more loot per player and is in general more forgiving (CRs, raid CDs, individual responsibility etc.), people still want "incentives" to keep them doing 25man? Fucking idiots is all I have to say. Why do you need that shit to keep doing 25 if that's what you fucking enjoy? If you prefer the 25 version, just fucking keep raiding that. You already have advantages over 10man, why the hell would you feel "forced" to switch into it?

Goddamn mongoloids.

There are people who enjoy 25 man raiding and those who enjoy 10 man raiding. There are also people who enjoy raiding in general, regardless of whether it is 10 or 25 man. 25 mans run into logistical problems because they need to maintain a larger roster of people, many of whom are indifferent as to whether they are raiding 10s or 25s and will jump ship to the easier to organize difficulty if the 25 man guild they're in isn't progressing as quickly due to roster issues. 25 man raiding is not in some bubble that is separate from 10 man. That should be abundantly obvious enough given the decline in 25 man guilds with the introduction of the new lockout system in Cata. Really, I'm not sure how this was that difficult to figure out.

They don't need to do anything majorly controversial...just make it so you can earn valor beyond the 1000 cap if you complete content that week in a 25 man guild run. Set the 25 man valor cap at 1500 and you will encourage people to raid 25 man over 10 man without dramatically stirring up the pot.

funny how folks say "25 man is harder, i raid both ,i know, sorry its the thruth".well guess what? i raid both as well and some of the 10 man encounters are harder than the 25 man version "sorry, its the truth" .see in 10 man there is little to no room for error, and everyone is much more accountable.in the 25 mans you can carry a couple folks ,sometimes more.i have killed versions of an encounter heroic style in 25 mans, when 4 or 5 folks have died or "messed up" , that same 10 man encounter pretty much becomes undefeatable when even just 1 player on your raid team dies or "messes up"

so the "25 is harder than 10's "just doesnt cut it anymore.and that come from personal experience.so you all can save that.

Again no one factors in how much longer it takes for 25 people to get back after a wipe, repair and come back from a bio break. The downtime in 25s is much longer. People get fed up with waiting for other people and guilds break.

I just shake my head at the people claiming "It's all fine now. People who like 25s raid 25s". That is just not true.

Higher item level from 25 mans is not going to happen so stop kidding yourselves.

Ghostcrawler said " Because that would cause progression-oriented 10 player raids to feel like they had to switch to 25s to benefit from the ilevel. "

By making 25 player drop higher item level items it'll force people into 25. If anything they'll probably do something like remove the lockouts and allow people who run it on 25 to also run it on 10 thus allowing 25 player guilds multiple chances per week to get geared faster or something along those lines / similar ect.

Higher item level items from 25 man is probably very unlikely though either way i'm interested to see what they mean by controversial.

A lot of people have this false sense of what will be the return of 25mans.

25 man raids failed when they shared the same loot as 10man. The effort and time of putting together a 25man raid was pointless when almost no effort could be made to do a 10man that would be more successful. They have already buffed gear drops in 25 mans and it didn't work. Giving them a higher ilvl when 10s can just upgrade it for 1500 valor won't work.

The only way to bring back 25man raids is to break 10s and 25s into separate lock outs and give them different loot totally. None of the changes suggested in here will even make me think about going back to 25man raids. It isn't worth carrying a dead weight healer and 4 dead weight dps.

I realize this might not seem controversial to people, but how about allowing current content to be cross realm for 25 mans only (but not for 10 mans) and let the community come together and form 25 mans for those who want to do it.

controversial.... that's the key word. I am guessing its higher ilvl items again. Which would suck.

Higher ilvl means nothing if the stat weighting on them is the same as the lower ilvl (or near enough the same), higher ilvl would also mean that the content linked to those items were made justifiable harder.., but no matter how you look at it, I'd agree, it would indeed suck, stink, blow to high heaven!

Being a 25man raider, I was hoping for the simple things again.., separate achievements again, different meta mounts although the same model, titles differing again (the standards) and that would be it.., there are other things I could wish for, but simply to avoid the solid stream of whiny posts about one comp being favoured I hope they don't go overboard, the community is in general far to bitchy and loot / vanity items oriented.
No shared lockout for 25s could be an idea, but I honestly don't see the need for it as it's the same as giving 25s higher ilvl (stupid system that ilvl), progress oriented 10s would probably also feel required to form 25s just for the added items then.
Could also be it's something as simple as re-introducing the 'Have Group Will Travel' summon for 25s.., a very small thing that would make no difference.

In truth they just need to separate the achievements again as 10 vs 25 isn't the same (Not starting a war here, just let it go), unless they somehow create dynamical room scaling they will never be the same.
Don't even think it would be possible to make dynamical scaling.., I mean, would it mean that 10s have a fighting area the size of 15 * 15 yards?- or does 25 get a room the size of Ogrimmar?

Originally Posted by Arcbound

I realize this might not seem controversial to people, but how about allowing current content to be cross realm for 25 mans only (but not for 10 mans) and let the community come together and form 25 mans for those who want to do it.

Chances are that it would ruin the progress tracking sites (or maybe it wouldn't count at all on them), could also be the death of normal 25 man guilds, and those doing 25 would be a mix of players floating about on different realms, thereby not showing anywhere except on blizzards statistics, and that in tern then breaks the competition for a lot of players.

I'd say leave it as is. 25-men (together with respective guilds) were destroyed by Cataclysm's "flexible" lockouts. This shouldn't be changed in first place. But as it was done, don't bring more harm. Let things be as they are. Re-accenting on 25-men can destroy 10-men guilds. The best Blizzard can do is to fire whoever was responsible for "flexible lockouts" stuff in first place and who was pro this system. I guess it was GC?

I hope it'll go back to the old way. Or at least same gear, just slightly higher ilvl (because be real, getting 25 people together to cooperate is harder than 10) and on separate lockouts. That way people will still do both each week to get as much gear as possible, especially those who refuse to do LFR and daillys.