posted 19. June 201703:41 AM
Looking at another PDF file this mancio guy and another person were to be representative for clans base in the Kyushu island if wiki is accurate,the people who original populated the Kyushu island were ryukyuan people who are related to the Ainu. While not a like for like look he reminds me of a Japanese model Joe oliver.https://i.ytimg.com/vi/BsHBlLvvlgo/maxresdefault.jpgPosts: 324 | From: New York | Registered: Feb 2016
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posted 19. June 201706:16 AM
That's interesting for a couple of reasons, one of which is personal, so I won't go into it without further digging, the other I had posted before on the Tensho embassy, this was in relation to the Kongolese embassy of Emanuele Ne Vunda in Europe and the Vatican,we had that argument whether or not Vunda was African or Black European based off his sculpture and his dress.The portraiture would if taken at face value and he was indeed of mixed ancestry, then look no further than Black sailors aboard Portuguese vessels, which would tie them into the area of the Kongo. Yasuke the African some say from the Kongo who became a Samurai would be of that type.

Thereal, while some folks from Ryukyu islands, ancient name for Okinawa may have connects with Kyushu which in turn have had connects with Taiwan who ultimately are somewhat related to the south-sea islanders, they are not really that related to the Anius who would have more of a Siberian connect.

posted 19. June 201708:07 AM
Never feared you Mikey boy I went into lurker mode because of disruptive trolls, you I can take on, and the figure wasn't royalty..anymore than Yusake was, he was considered for Daimyo which would have given him governorship of a province by Oda Nobunaga his military overlord, but even Nobunaga was not royalty, none of the daimyos or Samurais were, true Japanese royals is on a whole other level although these men were powerful.So stupid is the one that speak from not knowing and making up stuff as he goes.
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Never feared you Mikey boy and the figure wasn't royalty..anymore than Yusake was, he was considered for Daimyo which would have given him governorship of a province by Oda Nobunaga his military overlord, but even Nobunaga was not royalty, none of the the diaymos or Samurais were, true Japanese royals is on a whole other level although these men were powerful.So stupid is the one that speak from not knowing and making up stuff as he goes.

.Damn you're pathetic, YOU didn't read the links did you???

Well, here is what they say......

..It sure sounds like he was ROYALTY to me!

Or are you saying that you know more about Japanese culture than Japanese experts?

posted 19. June 201708:30 AMNo no no!! Micky bouy, the above was a Daimyo aka a freaking military governor no connection to the royal family.the experts never said that.Actually you love a moderation free zone where trolls can disrupt anytime and give you an out..the fraud are pseudos like you and lemmings who are your yes men.
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.Not really, everyone else is trying to figure out where Ito fits in. Meanwhile you give us lessons on minutia. Typical of people who know little about little.

Yes it does matter, a Samurai or a Diamyo could come from the lower rung of society, a Japanese royal must have royal familial blood ties, these are not Europeans, one simply do not work your way into becoming a royal, hence Ito whether of mixed ancestry or not or Yasuke who was African could not be a royal , but could be sponsored to become a Daimyo. I am not nitpicking , your typical gross mis-characterization of historical facts especially concerning Africans and historical events about Africa is disconcerting and it starts with little lies leading to big ones.Edit.My point regarding Ito, if he was of mixed ancestries the most likely scenario was he was a descendant of a Portuguese sailor either from an African living in Portugal see, the above painting or of mixed Afro-Portuguese descent.
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posted 20. June 201712:06 PM
^ Wrong. A royal is no more than the person who was the front man for the revolt that overthrew the last ruler. Japan, China, Korea and even Europe has endless examples of this.One could also become a royal by marrying into the family or even being adopted into it.

posted 20. June 201705:26 PM
The picture seems off especially around the mouth and ears secondly he seems to be wear a hybrid outfit that doesn't match well and the image doesn't really depict a Japanese person.
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posted 20. June 201705:55 PM
What it comes down to is, it really doesn't matter if he was royalty or just nobility.

Trade-offs associated with each;Royalty usually got wacked whenever a new regime performed a coup, which occurred relatively frequently in Japan. Usually, the entire royal family bite the dust, or perhaps they allowed one to stay alive to act as a puppet.

However, even when the royalty changed, many of the nobles remained and simply served under the new King.

posted 20. June 201707:02 PM
You have to realize something, when I said the Japanese royals are not like European or even other Asians, is that they are extraordinarily cohesive , unlike European dynast who suffered breaks in their line, these folks kept it together from 50 b.c to the present. marrying outside the line put you in a lower tier, they are mental about such things,another thing while internal upheaval rocked Japan from time to time, the royals kept aloof of it all , perhaps this is the reason they kept their cohesion.
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posted 20. June 201707:24 PM
Japanese Christians were doomed in any case as the traditionalist took hold and slaughter them by the thousands, a thing the Kongolese royals of the same exact era failed to do, they embraced Christianity whole hardheartedly and crushed the Kongolese traditionalist, The Ethiopians also saw through the Portuguese manipulation using their strand of Christianity chopping off their heads and ousting one of their Emperors who took on the Papal faith.
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posted 20. June 201709:13 PM
Both the Japanese and European political systems were based on, Feudalism, or land-based economies.In this respect, they were almost identical.The real power wasn't with the royal families as much as those land holding nobles.Really, not very much different than today's Corporations, Board members, CEOs and their relationships with the President.

The basis of this thread is that Mike has assumed solely on looking at this painting that this person is a "black mulatto" and in the last sentence in the above yellow caption he wrote he say that that is a fact. But stating something is a fact and then asking for evidence of it is contradictory.

Brada is probably most qualified to answer this because he lives in Japan and is black as well. The thread title also asks about who his daddy was, rather than who his parents were which implies he was a "mulatto" combination of different types of parents.

Brada, I ask you, based on looking the the above person would you describe him as a "black mulatto " or perhaps Japanese/European or simply as a Japanese person?

and how would the Japanese people, in your opinion describe him?

To me he could be a lot of things, you cant tell by looking at just this one picture
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quote: Brada, I ask you, based on looking the the above person would you describe him as a "black mulatto " or perhaps Japanese/European or simply as a Japanese person?

and how would the Japanese people, in your opinion describe him?

To me he could be a lot of things, you cant tell by looking at just this one picture

Eyeballing the painting above,providing that he looked exactly like that in real life, he looked suspiciously like a hafu or half , meaning mixed, tho he may in fact not be, but the family's relationship with foreigners ie Portuguese one cannot rule out that possibility.. so that line of inquiry is legit. Sometimes Japanese themselves can't tell who is mixed or not, it is not unusual for assumptions to be made about a person's ancestry based off a hair type and light eye color, as unusual as it is there are Japanese with frizzy hair or light colored hair and eyes that would raised such questions, the persons themselves may not know of any non Japanese in the family tree, add to the fact that Japanese facial features varies from flat noses thick lips to aquiline noses and thin lips or any combination thereof.
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posted 21. June 201712:53 AM
Mike nice finding of the portrait of the Japanese Jesuit priest Ito Sukenasu Mansio. During that period the Portuguese introduced the slave trade in Japan. Japanese slaves were sold in India, Europe and Mexico. The Japanese government smartly put an end to the Japanese Slave Trade. Later the Japanese government under the leadership of Shogun Tokugawa Ieyasu (sound like Iesu aka Jesus) saw the threat that the European Christians and jesuits represented to the independance of Japan. Tokugawa Ieyasu intelligently banned Christianity in Japan, expelled the European Christina missionary (really mercenary) and massacred all the Japanese Christians who didnt want to reject Christianity. The Portuguese strategy of colonisation and enslavement through Christianity didnt work in Japan but it was successful in Africa.

Japanese Shogun Tokugawa Ieyasu okugawa Ieyasu (徳川 家康?, January 31, 1543  June 1, 1616) was the founder and first shogun of the Tokugawa shogunate of Japan, which effectively ruled Japan from the Battle of Sekigahara in 1600 until the Meiji Restoration in 1868. Ieyasu seized power in 1600, received appointment as shogun in 1603, and abdicated from office in 1605, but remained in power until his death in 1616. His given name is sometimes spelled Iyeyasu,[1][2] according to the historical pronunciation of he. Ieyasu was posthumously enshrined at Nikkō Tōshō-gū with the name Tōshō Daigongen (東照大権現?). He was one of the three unifiers of Japan, along with his Former Lord Nobunaga and Toyotomi Hideyoshi.

The Christian martyrs of Nagasaki. 16-17th-century Japanese painting.

oyotomi HideyoshiThe situation was changed when Toyotomi Hideyoshi reunified Japan. Once he became the ruler of Japan, Hideyoshi began to pay attention to external threats, particularly the expansion of European power in East Asia. The turning point for Catholic missions was the San Felipe incident, where in an attempt to recover his cargo, the Spanish captain of a shipwrecked trading vessel claimed that the missionaries were there to prepare Japan for conquest. These claims made Hideyoshi suspicious of the foreign religion.[15] He attempted to curb Catholicism while maintaining good trading relations with Portugal and Spain, which might have provided military support to Dom Justo Takayama, a Christian Daimyo in western Japan.

By 1587, Toyotomi Hideyoshi had become alarmed, not because of too many converts but rather because the hegemon learned that Christian lords reportedly oversaw forced conversions of retainers and commoners, that they had garrisoned the city of Nagasaki, that they participated in the slave trade of other Japanese and, apparently offending Hideyoshi's Buddhist sentiments, that they allowed the slaughter of horses and oxen for food.[16] He was concerned that divided loyalties might lead to dangerous rebels like the Ikkō-ikki Sect of earlier years and produced his edict expelling missionaries. However, this decree was not particularly enforced.[17]

Toyotomi Hideyoshi promulgated a ban on Catholicism in form of the "Bateren-tsuiho-rei" (the Purge Directive Order to the Jesuits) on July 24, 1587. Hideyoshi put Nagasaki under his direct rule to control Portuguese trade.

When Toyotomi Hideyoshi issued the Bateren-tsuiho-rei, the Jesuits in Japan, led by Coelho, planned armed resistance. At first, they sought help from Kirishitan daimyo but the daimyo refused. Then they called for a deployment of reinforcements from their homeland and its colonies. But this plan was vetoed by Valignano. Like the Kirishitan daimyo, he realized that a military campaign against Japan's powerful ruler would bring catastrophe to Catholicism in Japan. Valignano survived the crisis by laying all the blame on Coelho. In 1590, the Jesuits decided to stop intervening in the struggles between the daimyo and to disarm themselves. They only gave secret shipments of food and financial aid to Kirishitan daimyo.

On February 5, 1597, twenty-six Christians  six European Franciscan missionaries, three Japanese Jesuits and seventeen Japanese laymen including three young boys  were executed by crucifixion in Nagasaki. These individuals were raised on crosses and then pierced through with spears. While there were many more martyrs, the first martyrs came to be especially revered, the most celebrated of which was Paul Miki. The Martyrs of Japan were canonized by the Roman Catholic Church on June 8, 1862 by Blessed Pius IX,[18] and are listed on the calendar as Sts. Paul Miki and his Companions, commemorated on February 6, February 5, the date of their death, being the feast of Saint Agatha.

Persecution continued sporadically, breaking out again in 1613 and 1630. On September 10, 1632, 55 Christians were martyred in Nagasaki in what became known as the Great Genna Martyrdom. At this time Catholicism was officially outlawed. The Church remained without clergy and theological teaching disintegrated until the arrival of Western missionaries in the 19th century.

After Toyotomi Hideyoshi's death, Tokugawa Ieyasu assumed power over Japan, in 1600. Like Toyotomi Hideyoshi, he disliked Christian activities in Japan but gave priority to trade with Portugal and Spain. He secured Portuguese trade in 1600. He negotiated with Manila to establish trade with the Philippines. The trade promotion made his policies toward Catholicism inconsistent. At the same time, in an attempt to wrest control of the Japan trade from the Catholic countries, Dutch and English traders advised the Shogunate that Spain did indeed have territorial ambitions, and that Catholicism was Spain's principal means. In contrast, the Dutch and English promised that they would limit themselves to trading and would not conduct missionary activities in Japan.

Following Toyotomi's death in 1598, it seems that the Jesuits realized that the Tokugawa shogunate was much stronger and more stable than Toyotomi Hideyoshi's administration, yet the mendicant orders relatively openly discussed military options. The Jesuits and the Mendicant Orders kept a lasting rivalry over the Japanese mission and attached to different imperial strategies.

The Tokugawa shogunate finally decided to ban Catholicism in 1614, and in the mid-17th century demanded the expulsion of all European missionaries and the execution of all converts.[19] This marked the end of open Christianity in Japan. The immediate cause of the prohibition was a case of fraud involving Ieyasu's Catholic vavasor, but there were also other reasons behind it. The Shogunate was concerned about a possible invasion by the Iberian colonial powers, which had previously occurred in the New World and the Philippines. In 1615, a Franciscan emissary of the Viceroy of New Spain asked the shogun for land to build a Spanish fortress and this deepened Japan's suspicion against Catholicism and the Iberian colonial powers behind it. Domestically, the ban was closely related to measures against the Toyotomi clan. In the statement on the "Expulsion of all missionaries from Japan", drafted by Zen monk Konchiin Suden (15631633) and issued in 1614 under the name of second shogun Hidetada (ruled 1605-1623), was the considered the first official statement of a comprehensive control of Kirishitan.[20] It claimed that the Christians were bringing disorder to Japanese society and that their followers "contravene governmental regulations, traduce Shinto, calumniate the True Law, destroy regulations, and corrupt goodness".[21] It was fully implemented and canonized as one of the fundamental Tokugawan laws.

The systematic persecution beginning in 1614 faced stiff resistance from Christians, despite the departure of more than half the clergy. Once again, the main reason for this resistance was not the presence of a few priests but rather the self-organization of many communities. Forced to secrecy, and having a small number of clergymen working underground, the Japanese Church was able to recruit leadership from among lay members. Japanese children caused admiration among the Portuguese and seem to have participated actively in the resistance. Nagasaki remained a Christian city in the first decades of the 17th century and during the general persecutions, other confraternities were founded in Shimabara, Kinai and Franciscans in Edo.

The Buddhist ecclesiastical establishment was made responsible for verifying that a person was not a Christian through what became known as the "temple guarantee system" (terauke seido). By the 1630s, people were being required to produce a certificate of affiliation with a Buddhist temple as proof of religious orthodoxy, social acceptability and loyalty to the regime.

The number of active Christians is estimated to have been around 200,000 in 1582.[22] There were likely around 1,000 known martyrs during the missionary period. In contrast, Christians attach a great importance to martyrdom and persecution, noting that countless more people were dispossessed of their land and property leading to their subsequent death in poverty.

The Japanese government used Fumie, pictures of the Virgin Mary and Christ meant to be trod upon, to reveal practicing Catholics and sympathizers. Anyone reluctant to step on the pictures was identified a Catholic and sent to Nagasaki. The policy of the Japanese government (Edo) was to turn Christians from their faith; if the Catholics refused to renounce their religion, they were tortured. Those who would not recant were typically executed on Nagasaki's Mount Unzen.

The Shimabara Rebellion, led by a young Christian boy named Amakusa Shiro Tokisada, took place in 1637. The Rebellion broke out over economic desperation and government oppression but later assumed a religious tone. About 27,000 people joined the uprising, but it was crushed by the shogunate after a sustained campaign. They are not considered martyrs by the Catholic Church since they took up arms for materialistic reasons. Many Japanese were deported to Macau or to the Spanish Philippines. Many Macanese and Japanese Mestizos are the mixed-race descendants of the deported Japanese Catholics. 400 were officially deported by the government to Macau and Manila, but thousands of Japanese were pressured into moving voluntarily. About 10,000 Macanese and 3,000 Japanese were moved to Manila.Japanese Ambassador to the Papacy Hasekura Tsunegaga.

Hasekura Rokuemon Tsunenaga (or "Philip Francis Faxicura", baptized as "Francisco Felipe Faxicura", in Spain) (15711622) (Japanese: 支倉六右衛門常長, also spelled Faxecura Rocuyemon in period European sources, reflecting the contemporary pronunciation of Japanese)[1] was a Roman noble of Japanese imperial descent with ancestral ties to Emperor Kanmu and a Japanese samurai and retainer of Date Masamune, the daimyō of Sendai.

In the years 1613 through 1620, Hasekura headed a diplomatic mission to Spain and the Vatican in Rome, traveling through New Spain (arriving in Acapulco and departing from Veracruz) and visiting various ports-of-call in Europe. This historic mission is called the Keichō Embassy (慶長使節), and follows the Tenshō embassy (天正使節) of 1582.[2] On the return trip, Hasekura and his companions re-traced their route across New Spain in 1619, sailing from Acapulco for Manila, and then sailing north to Japan in 1620.[3] He is conventionally considered the first Japanese ambassador in the Americas and in Spain.[4]

Although Hasekura's embassy was cordially received in Spain and Rome, it happened at a time when Japan was moving toward the suppression of Christianity. European monarchs such as the King of Spain thus refused the trade agreements Hasekura had been seeking. Hasekura returned to Japan in 1620 and died of illness a year later, his embassy seemingly ending with few results in an increasingly isolationist Japan.

Japan's next embassy to Europe would only occur more than 200 years later, following two centuries of isolation, with the "First Japanese Embassy to Europe" in 1862.

The Japanese embassy of Mancio Ito, with Pope Gregory XIII in 1585. Notice the Black adviser or so call servant of the Pope in the back.

Those are probably Turkish or East Asian ambassadors meeting the Pope.

posted 21. June 201712:58 AM
No direct foreign connection until he found refuge among the Portuguese, well anything prior to that about part of his ancestry being of non Japanese origins will remain speculative for now, he may just have looked that way.
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quote:Originally posted by mena7: Mike nice finding of the portrait of the Japanese Jesuit priest Ito Sukenasu Mansio. During that period the Portuguese introduced the slave trade in Japan. Japanese slaves were sold in India, Europe and Mexico. The Japanese government smartly put an end to the Japanese Slave Trade. Later the Japanese government under the leadership of Shogun Tokugawa Ieyasu (sound like Iesu aka Jesus) saw the threat that the European Christians and jesuits represented to the independance of Japan. Tokugawa Ieyasu intelligently banned Christianity in Japan, expelled the European Christina missionary (really mercenary) and massacred all the Japanese Christians who didnt want to reject Christianity. The Portuguese strategy of colonisation and enslavement through Christianity didnt work in Japan but it was successful in Africa.

Time and context matters, for while they made a mess of things in the Kongo, and had a toe hold on the coast of Mozambique they were wiped out by the Rozwi Empire a breakaway state in Zimbabwe during the 1600rds and also they got their clocks cleaned by the Ethiopians as mentioned above.But yes later they were able to set up a lucrative slave trade system with the Dahomey empire western Africa.
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posted 21. June 201711:20 AM
You know the mix he is referring to are the original black type of Asia, here a photo of a Japanese with a mixed Japanese, ignore the others in the background, the first guy is matsuo with the Pompadour from a singing group called exile the other guy with dreads is sekiguchi Mandy who is half Nigerian I believe.https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXjdM2EUsAA6SwO.jpgPosts: 324 | From: New York | Registered: Feb 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Thereal: You know the mix he is referring to are the original black type of Asia, here a photo of a Japanese with a mixed Japanese, ignore the others in the background, the first guy is matsuo with the Pompadour from a singing group called exile the other guy with dreads is sekiguchi Mandy who is half Nigerian I believe.https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXjdM2EUsAA6SwO.jpg

Like I said, the emperor's features are not unusual among indigenous Japanese.... So that makes them indigenous and not the result of mixture with Africans. Japanese are remotely related to the populations in the Islands of the Pacific who have similar features and darker skin, IE the chamorro, Micronesians and so forth.
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quote:Originally posted by Thereal: I think mixture was implying the people were African just aspects seen in some African people.

A lot of Asians have somewhat so-called "negroid" features: big noses and lips. Hence why so many in some places get Nose and Eye surgery. Japan on the other hand already had "round eyes" in the population as part of their Ainu ancestry.
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