Clamping: Advanced Empirical Discussion

It’s true, Xenolith posted concepts similar to those exposed here - even the application of recursion (fibonacci’ numbers are a case of recursion) etc.:xenolith - Finding xeno: a penis tale

I don’t know if we should be more happy or worried for that. :D

Having just read Xeno’s hypothesis, one of the questions that keeps twisting my brain uncomfortably is, why Bib gained so much over a long period without decon breaks? Also, my own best gains were about 3 months into a fairly intensive routine - again with no decon breaks. And I’m probably sure there are others who have shared similar experiences. It’s all very well to have mathematical modelling plotting the optimum routine, but the body isn’t a nuts and bolts machine that can be predicted with the same degree of certainty as the engine of a car - flesh and blood has a predictable habit of throwing a spanner in the works of the best intentioned attempts to mathematically rationalise biological phenomena. I’m not saying that it shouldn’t be attempted, only that there is probably more than one way to make a ‘coon skin coat.

One of the most spectacular documented examples of growth I’ve yet seen (originally posted by Marinera as a pdf - sorry, I can’t find the original thread - I have the document on my disk but alas no dick pics in the MM forum), was of a man in the late 19th century, a circus performer, whose penis grew to gigantic proportions over a period of 2 years - 10.5” long X 9.5” girth flaccid! For those of you who look upon this as a blessing, consider his complaints that his size made intercourse with his wife impossible, his organ was heavy and burdensome to carry and he pleaded with the doctor to have it amputated. According to the doctor’s report, he presented with severe infections in his lymph glands and foreskin. Apparently, he was an acrobat and must have been already quite well endowed as he described his appearance in tights, before growth, as “unseemly” - whatever that means give the social mores of the day! To remedy this he devised a harness whereby he strapped the penis to the testicles and (presumably) tucked the offending bulge neatly between his legs. During the course of his acrobatic pursuits, the harness routinely twisted and caused trauma to his genitals. Sometimes it was so severe that it took several days to recover. But it did, and over the course of two years he experienced substantial hypertrophy. The doctor noted that, apart from the infections, his penis was healthy and quite normal, except in its size. Although it was not noted in the original report, it could be speculated that his infections may well have resulted from progressive unhealed trauma sustained by the use of his harness.

Although this is only one case (albeit spectacular), what does this tell us? It would seem to support the notion that growth can be achieved by successive regular trauma over a prolonged period. The trick for us is to regulate and manage this trauma to create “safer” hypertrophy. Whether this achieved through micro tears, or by killing cells (on a micro level) by starving tissue of oxygen, or through a combination of both, it may transpire that some regimens may target different types of growth. Whether decon breaks are going to assist, or optimise, is debatable - there seems to be at least some documented evidence (even discounting Mr 19th century) that they may not.

"Pertinaciously pursuing a penis of preposterously prodigious proportions." What a mouthful!

07-19-2009, 07:37 AM

LongVehicle

Originally Posted by lil12big1

Having just read Xeno’s hypothesis, one of the questions that keeps twisting my brain uncomfortably is, why Bib gained so much over a long period without decon breaks? Also, my own best gains were about 3 months into a fairly intensive routine - again with no decon breaks. And I’m probably sure there are others who have shared similar experiences. It’s all very well to have mathematical modelling plotting the optimum routine, but the body isn’t a nuts and bolts machine that can be predicted with the same degree of certainty as the engine of a car - flesh and blood has a predictable habit of throwing a spanner in the works of the best intentioned attempts to mathematically rationalise biological phenomena. I’m not saying that it shouldn’t be attempted, only that there is probably more than one way to make a ‘coon skin coat.

Although this is only one case (albeit spectacular), what does this tell us? It would seem to support the notion that growth can be achieved by successive regular trauma over a prolonged period. The trick for us is to regulate and manage this trauma to create “safer” hypertrophy. Whether this achieved through micro tears, or by killing cells (on a micro level) by starving tissue of oxygen, or through a combination of both, it may transpire that some regimens may target different types of growth. Whether decon breaks are going to assist, or optimise, is debatable - there seems to be at least some documented evidence (even discounting Mr 19th century) that they may not.

lil1 :lep:

For the first paragraph, we can model it - we just don’t have enough data. The difference between the car and our body is the number of variables involved and the lack of experimental data. If we had the data, the only problem would be the complexity. Dealing with PE in an analytical fashion, and at least trying to be as rigorous as is reasonable, will always lead to preferable results from discussions.

For the second paragraph, hanging is different from clamping. There is a completely different mechanism or process going on. I can see what you mean by your anecdote, but the comparison is really not justified. Vacuum hanging done continuously may not cause injury. Remaining clamped for 24 hours of a day will ensure you lose your penis. The stimulation is completely different. About hanging however, I agree with you - I have a suspicion that no breaks (“deconditioning” or otherwise) are needed…but I am not sure about it either.

I’m not saying that it shouldn’t be attempted, only that there is probably more than one way to make a ‘coon skin coat. …………..

First point: our ideas are similar to Xeno’, but aren’t exactly the same.

Second, the model we are exposing is suited for advanced PEers; as said more than one time, for newbies a costant, mild work is the best way to achieve gains. You had your best gains after years of consistent work, or when you was a newbie/intermediate PEer?

If I well remember, anyway, you had days and weeks of works, and I could add of high amount of work, and days of rest, and even weeks when you worked little or nothing. Is that so different from what are we saying? About Bib’ gains: explain me why no one else had similar gains using his methods. And I’ll stop here about that.

Originally Posted by lil12big1

I’m not saying that it shouldn’t be attempted, only that there is probably more than one way to make a ‘coon skin coat. …………..

I agree 100%. No one said this is the only way to have gains. :)

Originally Posted by lil12big1

…… One of the most spectacular documented examples of growth I’ve yet seen (originally posted by Marinera as a pdf - sorry, I can’t find the original thread ….

………. Although this is only one case (albeit spectacular), what does this tell us? It would seem to support the notion that growth can be achieved by successive regular trauma over a prolonged period. The trick for us is to regulate and manage this trauma to create “safer” hypertrophy. Whether this achieved through micro tears, or by killing cells (on a micro level) by starving tissue of oxygen, or through a combination of both, it may transpire that some regimens may target different types of growth. Whether decon breaks are going to assist, or optimise, is debatable - there seems to be at least some documented evidence (even discounting Mr 19th century) that they may not.

lil1 :lep:

Lil, my friend, that’s exactly what we have said in this thread; the study you are referring to is one example I cited.

That guy caused an high degree of trauma to his penis; growth wasn’t instantaneous, but delayed; he was an acrobat of a circus: what does that means? Going from city to city, with some days doing his numbers, some days rest, periods when he didn’t display his show, etc. etc..

This case seems more supporting our model than contradicting it. Where this ‘variety of regimens that target different types of growth’ can you see there? I can see abrupt loads, that accumulating caused, after two years, an incredible growth.

A question: why this guys didn’t cease using the harness if the growth was steady and progressive? Why he waited for having a not usable penis? I can see only one answer: becuase the growth wasn’t progressive, but mostly concentrated in a brief period. :)

Last edited by marinera : 07-19-2009 at 02:19 PM.

07-19-2009, 02:06 PM

ShyMplsMale

Originally Posted by lil12big1

Having just read Xeno’s hypothesis, one of the questions that keeps twisting my brain uncomfortably is, why Bib gained so much over a long period without decon breaks?

This thread is really interesting but I’d like to take a stab at this one. I would also like to point out another member here, Equine Rooster, has gained without many decon breaks. I think he took a 7 day decon and a 12 day decon. These are actually “mini-decons”. He said he didn’t gain after the 7 day decon but gained after the 12 day one. He has only done jelqing in moderation and his routine is moderate too. From what I’ve read, he goes back and forth between 2 on/ 2 off, 2 on/ 1 off, and 1 on/ 2 off. Somewhere in there. Always taking rest days depending on how he feels.

Anyways, back to Bib. After reading over his story, I believe he used weights where he didn’t feel a stretch until in the middle/end of a set. He didn’t start using a weight where he would feel fatigue or tension right away. I believe he gradually increased the time and weight slower then others have. I see a lot of people that start with 5 pounds. I think Bib started with 1 or 2. I can’t remember. Either way, people are quick to jump up to 10 pounds. By that time, their tissue is already toughened and they need to go on a decon break. Bib stayed behind the PONG (Point Of No Gains) throughout his whole PE journey. He did say his gains did slow down but instead of taking a decon, he just added more weight.

So, in my opinion, when it comes to hanging you can either add weight or take a decon. If you take a decon, you can start with a lighter weight and gain. If you don’t take a decon, it will be harder to get gains along the way since you need to continue to add weight which can cause injury (skin irritation, etc.)

Also, if someone has been PEing for a while and their gains have stalled, jumping over to hanging right away won’t give them anymore gains (minimal, if any). They won’t get the results Bib did, which they are hoping for. Not even close. They might get some lig gains but I believe their penis is at the PONG and a decon break is needed.

Marinera,Thank you for the link - I searched hard for it, but still couldn’t find it! It’s an interesting case and one that has piqued my curiosity ever since I first saw it.

Please don’t think that I’m trying to dissuade you from conducting a study - on the contrary, I think it’s a good idea although I’m a little concerned that the sample will be so small as to be not as useful as it could be. Hanging seems to be more popular and widespread than clamping and we still can’t work out why some gain yet others do not, even though they follow similar regimens. How are we to assess the optimal effects of clamping when it is still a relatively new practice and is not as widely adopted? But I applaud and support your efforts.

Regarding your questions - I don’t pretend to know all the answers but, you know me, I tend to be a sceptic! ;) I don’t deny for a moment that rest days are integral for growth - without them we may well end up like Mr 19th Century and present to a doctor with “suppurating periadenitis of both groins”! :eek: However, for me, decon’ breaks (extended breaks of several months) have always been seen as a last resort, something you do when all else has failed. If that’s what you are getting at, then I agree entirely - but I’d rather a routine where I can avoid them altogether …. if that is indeed ever possible!

The fact is, we really don’t know what Mr 19th Century actually did - how often he used his harness, how it was attached, what rest days he had, how frequently and to what degree he was injured. It is all speculation on our part. What we do know, or at least that which was reported by the doctor, is “After using the apparatus for the space of two years he observed that the organ was increasing greatly in size.” So it would seem that growth was progressive. Further “Finally sexual congress became impossible.” would seem to indicate that he was very aware that he was growing (I imagine his wife was painfully aware as well). But we don’t know when all this started. We can do some basic math and assume that he started using his harness probably around age 27 (after his wife had bore him two children), and that he noticed growth about 2 years after that. But he didn’t presented to the doctor until age 38. So it would appear that his growth was achieved by significant regular trauma over a lengthy period.

Why did he wait to see a doctor? Who knows - men are like that even today. We could even speculate that if he had not developed “enlarged suppurating glands of both groins”, he may never have presented to a doctor at all and his story would have been lost forever. I, for one, am glad that he did and I am now seriously considering a new career in acrobatics …. :)

"Pertinaciously pursuing a penis of preposterously prodigious proportions." What a mouthful!

07-19-2009, 05:55 PM

marinera

Originally Posted by lil12big1

Marinera,

…………

Please don’t think that I’m trying to dissuade you from conducting a study - on the contrary, I think it’s a good idea although I’m a little concerned that the sample will be so small as to be not as useful as it could be. Hanging seems to be more popular and widespread than clamping and we still can’t work out why some gain yet others do not, even though they follow similar regimens. How are we to assess the optimal effects of clamping when it is still a relatively new practice and is not as widely adopted? But I applaud and support your efforts.

…….

It’s all ok., Lil, I’m fine with doubts, critiques and anything (everything?) constructive, so welcome to your posts. I agree that the sample will not be a scientific demonstration, in a case or another; but neverthless it can be interesting.

Actually, I had in mind to test those ideas for hanging, but there is such a climate among hangers that I’d get a level of bitching that would make problematic to try that.

Originally Posted by lil12big1

……….

I don’t deny for a moment that rest days are integral for growth - without them we may well end up like Mr 19th Century and present to a doctor with “suppurating periadenitis of both groins”! :eek: However, for me, decon’ breaks (extended breaks of several months) have always been seen as a last resort, something you do when all else has failed. If that’s what you are getting at, then I agree entirely - but I’d rather a routine where I can avoid them altogether …. if that is indeed ever possible!

……….

Agree as well. Let’s define words better: a decon break is something that doesn’t lasts for a week or two, but for months. 1-2 weeks are just a rest period. Maybe we’ll find a way to avoid even these two weeks of rest, in a ‘ideal system’, but for now it’s way more simple to test this hypothesis.

But if one is critiquing an approach, he has also to look at the alternative. What we see around here? People get gains at starting, then gains go deminishing. If they continue, gains become harder and harder to get. This scenario is so recurrent that we can’t just say : “Hey, it’s just that you are too lazy, do your work and you’ll gain again.”.

The anecdotical evidence is: most of this guys start getting again gains after a decon break. Since working for 6-8 weeks, than taking a decon-break is more simple to suggest that all the stuff exposed here, I think it’s kinda the ‘second worst choice’ - the first one is going ahead, augmenting intensity and time, causing the stalling to become harder to overcome.

Originally Posted by lil12big1

………

The fact is, we really don’t know what Mr 19th Century actually did - how often he used his harness, how it was attached, what rest days he had, how frequently and to what degree he was injured. It is all speculation on our part…..

Well, if we don’t know, let’s cut off on citing this case to support an option or the adverse. :)

07-19-2009, 07:51 PM

LongVehicle

Originally Posted by lil12big1

I tend to be a sceptic! ;) I don’t deny for a moment that rest days are integral for growth - without them we may well end up like Mr 19th Century and present to a doctor with “suppurating periadenitis of both groins”! :eek: However, for me, decon’ breaks (extended breaks of several months) have always been seen as a last resort, something you do when all else has failed. If that’s what you are getting at, then I agree entirely - but I’d rather a routine where I can avoid them altogether …. if that is indeed ever possible!

I’m also highly skeptical, particularly about the methods and heuristics we use in PE. That’s how this all came about, I was asking marinera how deconditioning breaks could even make sense. At least in clamping, I still do not believe they should be used. The OLR period is the correct approach, IMO. Just cutting it off and doing nothing is unnecessary.

It’s all ok., Lil, I’m fine with doubts, critiques and anything (everything?) constructive, so welcome to your posts. I agree that the sample will not be a scientific demonstration, in a case or another; but neverthless it can be interesting. Actually, I had in mind to test those ideas for hanging, but there is such a climate among hangers that I’d get a level of bitching that would make problematic to try that.

Agree as well. Let’s define words better: a decon break is something that doesn’t lasts for a week or two, but for months. 1-2 weeks are just a rest period. Maybe we’ll find a way to avoid even these two weeks of rest, in a ‘ideal system’, but for now it’s way more simple to test this hypothesis.

But if one is critiquing an approach, he has also to look at the alternative. What we see around here? People get gains at starting, then gains go deminishing. If they continue, gains become harder and harder to get. This scenario is so recurrent that we can’t just say : “Hey, it’s just that you are too lazy, do your work and you’ll gain again.”.

The anecdotical evidence is: most of this guys start getting again gains after a decon break. Since working for 6-8 weeks, than taking a decon-break is more simple to suggest that all the stuff exposed here, I think it’s kinda the ‘second worst choice’ - the first one is going ahead, augmenting intensity and time, causing the stalling to become harder to overcome.

Well, if we don’t know, let’s cut off on citing this case to support an option or the adverse. :)

Actually, lets just make this clear. We should try to be as rigorous as possible with what we have. Given we don’t have much data, all we need to do is make it clear (mention) when our assumptions are leaps. Otherwise, we are being scientific, and as rigorous as we can.

Agreed.

Those people actually seem to be doing an indefinite OLF period. They aren’t doing what I do, which is use a carefully tailored routine that simply does not carry any fatigue to cause continuous, recoverable stimulation. They seem to carry fatigue and not get rid of it…hence the stall in gains or injuries.

I suggest you read Ithel´s Mission over at MOS.He gained 3 cm (Lenghtwise) by clamping for about 4-5 weeks. This is probably because he really stretched out the penile tissue by clamping every day.But not a big girth gain.

I’ll check it out, thanks. But, as I said, I find that board very shady.

Just a little update:

I’ve found the OLF/OLR terminology and model to be extremely useful in analyzing my workouts so far. As readers may know, I moved away from BG-style clamping of TUC=10 to TUC=18 through this thread. I’ve been using the new longer TUC for at least two weeks I believe. I started at around 1 set a day, but due to my conditioning was able to move up quickly to 4 sets.

When we were discussing the OLF/OLR method, I was under the impression that my continuous no-carry fatigue amount was 4x18. I’ve discovered this incorrect. For the last week and a half, I have been unintentionally using a complicated OLF/OLR method that cycles fatigue. Basically, this is what it looked like:

This was truly unintentional as I began it before marinera and I formally formulated our thoughts. What I’ve been doing is overloading on the 4 set days. My maintainence sets seem to actually be 3, while at 2 I am able to overload recovery.

The results for the last week and a half or so have been ridiculous. My penis is constantly heavy and engorged, for example, I woke up today with a 6.5x6 (estimated) flaccid. That is much larger than my EG even 4 months ago. I haven’t measured gains because it is unnecessary, I am quite sure that if I have not gained in the last week and a half of consistent use of the OLF/OLR principles, then the gains will come soon. What I have noticed however is that if I don’t include the 2x18 sets every few days I will approach injury (I can feel it coming). Playing on the borderline is extremely dangerous and volatile for gains, if I do injury myself I will lose gains.

Another thing I’m getting sure about is that I can attribute my faster recovery to EVO. I keep repeating this, I realize, but one cannot overstate how helpful this has been.

Finally, I am becoming more and more sure that the longer TUC sets are more beneficial than more sets at shorter TUC, even if the total time is the same. I generally feel that this has been more beneficial (I used 10 minute sets since I began, until the thread was started). Of course, I won’t be able to compare gains because I used 10 minute sets when gains came easily. I have discussed a method to reach 18 minute sets efficiently with both sparkyx and Thick Cock.

The point is basically to use only one set per day for a number of weeks. The clamper should increase set time only, not frequency (with no breaks), and slowly, such that approximately 1 minute is added per week. If it is an advanced clamper, he would start at 10 and then add 1 minute per week or 2 minutes every fortnight. Once 18 is reached, the clamper would begin to increase sets per-day, slowly again. I believe this is the most efficient way to clamp (maximizing TUC and then manipulating sets per day).

I think it might be possible for me to reach 7 EG during the next 2 years. I was originally skeptical of this, but it seems possible with all the work we are doing. We have a lot to manipulate here. Anyway, I won’t be seriously manipulating the OLF/OLR until I have received and adapted to the generic Cialis and my pump (probably in about 5 weeks I may begin).

Off-topic: I was not much of a porn-watcher before I began clamping, but since I need to clamp during my low-erection timings I’ve been using porn frequently. I came across Shane Diesel as I mentioned before and was extremely shocked by his battered penis. However, he has actually succeeded in scaring me now, because I am pretty sure that I’ve never seen him completely erect. Is this common among large EG people? Also, there is another guy called Shorty Mac. This one has the most unusual penis that I have ever seen. His testicles (without exaggeration) seem to lie 1-2 inches after his dick departs from his body, hanging off of his dick. What the hell? Also, his dick is rarely completely erect. Only approximately 4-5 inches of huge EG penis are separated from his testicles (since the testicles are actually attached to the penis). Very shocking stuff.

I’ll check it out, thanks. But, as I said, I find that board very shady.

Just a little update:

I’ve found the OLF/OLR terminology and model to be extremely useful in analyzing my workouts so far. As readers may know, I moved away from BG-style clamping of TUC=10 to TUC=18 through this thread. I’ve been using the new longer TUC for at least two weeks I believe. I started at around 1 set a day, but due to my conditioning was able to move up quickly to 4 sets.

When we were discussing the OLF/OLR method, I was under the impression that my continuous no-carry fatigue amount was 4x18. I’ve discovered this incorrect. For the last week and a half, I have been unintentionally using a complicated OLF/OLR method that cycles fatigue. Basically, this is what it looked like:

This was truly unintentional as I began it before marinera and I formally formulated our thoughts. What I’ve been doing is overloading on the 4 set days. My maintainence sets seem to actually be 3, while at 2 I am able to overload recovery.

The results for the last week and a half or so have been ridiculous. My penis is constantly heavy and engorged, for example, I woke up today with a 6.5x6 (estimated) flaccid. That is much larger than my EG even 4 months ago. I haven’t measured gains because it is unnecessary, I am quite sure that if I have not gained in the last week and a half of consistent use of the OLF/OLR principles, then the gains will come soon. What I have noticed however is that if I don’t include the 2x18 sets every few days I will approach injury (I can feel it coming). Playing on the borderline is extremely dangerous and volatile for gains, if I do injury myself I will lose gains.

Another thing I’m getting sure about is that I can attribute my faster recovery to EVO. I keep repeating this, I realize, but one cannot overstate how helpful this has been.

Finally, I am becoming more and more sure that the longer TUC sets are more beneficial than more sets at shorter TUC, even if the total time is the same. I generally feel that this has been more beneficial (I used 10 minute sets since I began, until the thread was started). Of course, I won’t be able to compare gains because I used 10 minute sets when gains came easily. I have discussed a method to reach 18 minute sets efficiently with both sparkyx and Thick Cock.

The point is basically to use only one set per day for a number of weeks. The clamper should increase set time only, not frequency (with no breaks), and slowly, such that approximately 1 minute is added per week. If it is an advanced clamper, he would start at 10 and then add 1 minute per week or 2 minutes every fortnight. Once 18 is reached, the clamper would begin to increase sets per-day, slowly again. I believe this is the most efficient way to clamp (maximizing TUC and then manipulating sets per day).

I think it might be possible for me to reach 7 EG during the next 2 years. I was originally skeptical of this, but it seems possible with all the work we are doing. We have a lot to manipulate here. Anyway, I won’t be seriously manipulating the OLF/OLR until I have received and adapted to the generic Cialis and my pump (probably in about 5 weeks I may begin).

Off-topic: I was not much of a porn-watcher before I began clamping, but since I need to clamp during my low-erection timings I’ve been using porn frequently. I came across Shane Diesel as I mentioned before and was extremely shocked by his battered penis. However, he has actually succeeded in scaring me now, because I am pretty sure that I’ve never seen him completely erect. Is this common among large EG people? Also, there is another guy called Shorty Mac. This one has the most unusual penis that I have ever seen. His testicles (without exaggeration) seem to lie 1-2 inches after his dick departs from his body, hanging off of his dick. What the hell? Also, his dick is rarely completely erect. Only approximately 4-5 inches of huge EG penis are separated from his testicles (since the testicles are actually attached to the penis). Very shocking stuff.

Shane & Mandingo has done PE pre porn.Shorty Mac has put a his dick under the Knife.

By the way,MOS is a great place to find PE knowledge in the same way Thundersplace is. But there seems to be 2 different cultures when you move between the forums :D

Shane & Mandingo has done PE pre porn.Shorty Mac has put a his dick under the Knife.

By the way,MOS is a great place to find PE knowledge in the same way Thundersplace is. But there seems to be 2 different cultures when you move between the forums :D

Are you sure about that? I was suspicious Shane either clamped or/and pumped. Shorty Mac on the other hand disgusted the hell out of me. If that was a result of PE I would almost consider quitting. His testicles are actually attached to his dick. What the hell? Disgusting guy.

I registered there and searched carefully. DLD is a moderator there. Red Zulu posted DLD’s pictures, which are clearly photoshopped, without noting that they are. This is enough shadiness to scare me off. In addition to that, they are very unscientific over there. We have many great minds on this forum…it is incomparable in my opinion.

Every individual is at once the beneficiary and the victim of the linguistic tradition into which he has been born - the beneficiary inasmuch as language gives access to the accumulated records of other people's experience, the victim in so far as it confirms him in the belief that reduced awareness is the only awareness and as it bedevils his sense of reality, so that he is all too apt to take his concepts for data, his words for actual things.