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Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:46 pm

mark wrote:That recreation of the assassination is wrong.The bullet hole in JFK'S jacket is hole 5 3/4 inches below the necklineThe bullet hole in JFK'S shirt is hole 5 3/4 inches below the necklineAt frame 223 in the Zapruder Gov Connally is not reaction to being hit yetAt frame 225 It shows President Kennedy being hitAt frame 232-235 it shows Gov Connally being hit.

Frame 313 fatal hit to President Kennedy

Running time of the Zapruder film 18.3 frames per second.

Time to shoot the rifle and reload a round into the chamber 2.3 secondsTime between frames 223-235 1.6 seconds.

Gov Connally His wounds included an entry wound in the back near the right shoulder, a broken rib, an exit wound in the chest, a shattered wrist caused by a bullet entering from the dorsal (back) side, and a fragment lodged in his thigh.

If he his hit the same time as President Kennedy how could hold onto that 10 gal hat of his?

The bullet holes 5 3/4 in below the neckline have always been explained that Kennedy's shirt and jacket were bunched up in the back when he sat down and you can see this in the film footage of the motorcade.

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:45 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:For those who want to see a compelling JFK documentary which first aired on the History Channel in 2009 (I bought the 2010 DVD), someone has posted the entire thing on YouTube. It also reveals quite a bit, if one knows what to look for:

OK, say you're Lee Harvey Oswald, and reporters ask you if you killed the president. If you're innocent, you say, "What are you, nuts? Killed the president? That's crazy." And if you're guilty, you say, "What are you, nuts? Killed the president? That's crazy." Instead Oswald goes into an explanation of how he hasn't quite been charged with the crime yet, and then, some time later, says, "I'm a patsy." I'm a patsy? Instead of saying, "These police are accusing me unfairly," he says that people have set him up - with just the faintest suggestion that he might know who did. What a weird thing for an innocent man to say. What a weird thing for a guilty man who wants to appear innocent to say. Interesting.

Anyway, this documentary brings together raw footage, some of it never shown before, from the morning of the assassination through the murder of Oswald two days later. It is riveting. One interesting thing, of many, is the number of times Oswald spoke to reporters in those two days. Whenever he saw a reporter, he seemed to go out of his way to say something. Also interesting is watching Kennedy speaking that morning in Fort Worth. The man was such a charming speaker and had such a way with a wisecrack that it's possible to sit there laughing with him, even knowing what's about to happen an hour later.

Just watched the first part of this. Sad.... That is what comes to mind first. To see such an inspiring man drive off to his horrible death makes me sick to the stomach at times.

Can anybody tell me what happened with Adlai Stevenson in Texas? It seemed he was boo-ed when he tried to give a speech just some time before JFK visited Texas.

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:51 am

Stevenson was attacked. It wasn't any serious assault, but he was atracked, and physically struck.

rjm

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Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:13 am

rjm wrote:Stevenson was attacked. It wasn't any serious assault, but he was atracked, and physically struck.

rjm

Sent From My Phabulous Galaxy Note II Phablet Using Tapatalk 4

Why? Radical right wing left wing thing?

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:15 am

eligain wrote:The bullet holes 5 3/4 in below the neckline have always been explained that Kennedy's shirt and jacket were bunched up in the back when he sat down and you can see this in the film footage of the motorcade.

Nah.

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:24 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:

eligain wrote:The bullet holes 5 3/4 in below the neckline have always been explained that Kennedy's shirt and jacket were bunched up in the back when he sat down and you can see this in the film footage of the motorcade.

Nah.

You can't see that his jacket is bunched up in the back?

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:08 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:

eligain wrote:The bullet holes 5 3/4 in below the neckline have always been explained that Kennedy's shirt and jacket were bunched up in the back when he sat down and you can see this in the film footage of the motorcade.

Nah.

Exactly. I tried it myself, with a very standard wool blazer, in a vehicle. (An early 1990s Lands' End "Year 'rounder." 28 inch long, boxy, old-style business blazer. The men's and women's patterns are nearly identical, except for the standard length, which makes them both "fingertip length." Identical, with opposite buttons, and the length, which accommodates a man's longer torso and arms.) And also asked for volunteers, as well, males, to do the same. Got a couple! (Standard length men's suit jackets. Old-fashioned.)

So, we tried it, following the film footage, with tape measure. NO WAY it actually bunched up that much; it just didn't. In fact, the seat actually stabilized the jackets.

Anyone can try it. I recommend you all do.

If someone has a screen shot of his jacket from the back, post it. And prove it.

_______

@drjohncarpenter John, I want to apologize for my ego. It's just a literally worthless piece of paper -a phud. A license to be exploited as disposable labor, exchangeable property, so administrators can get rich. So, my ego is all I got out of it. And even that has gotten trashed in the horrible environment of academic labor.

I don't even have a car anymore! (And I can't afford one.) I'm just lucky to have kind relatives, without whom, I might be homeless. The same as many exploited, abused, and disposable faculty. Who now comprise around 70% of the teaching force in this country, and growing. It's nothing to be proud of - just to be endured. One tries to get creative to find some money!

It doesn't make anyone a *scholar* because some old guy with tenure signed a piece of paper.

As far as I'm concerned, you have more than earned YOUR title. Outta my heart.

You are the only Doc who matters here! And you are a remarkable scholar. An empiricist who nonetheless goes out on a limb at times. Recall that Greil Marcus QUIT grad school at Berkeley, because, he said, "it bored the hell out of me." This was in the "golden age," too. No way am I in his league just because I got the signature. He gets the props! (He got the goldmine; I got the shaft. True.)

Same difference. You get the props.____________

Now, to JFK. It's not a lost cause, I believe. It requires eternal vigilance. All I can do is thank you, and say "don't give up." You know the truth, and it's value, so don't give up.

Opinion polls that change because of bogus computer simulations or notions of a bunched up jacket, DO NOT CHANGE THE TRUTH.

I doubt they even had sufficient evidence for probable cause. So, a Grand Jury would have had to indict the proverbial "ham sandwich." Hoover admitted the lack of evidence. It's on the Johnson tapes.

Once Oswald was dead, they didn't need evidence.

Don't despair. The truth will prevail. Those last withheld documents will be released some day.

Not in our lifetimes, perhaps, to paraphrase one book title. But the truth will be officially released.

Meanwhile, do not despair. No one wants to face the madness we see in that documentary. It's very difficult for people to deal with. How could that happen here? You know? People want to trust. And there's no one to trust in the JFK matter. No one. It's hard for many to live every day with that knowledge.

Still, you are not spitting in the wind. A lot of people right here are now reading about it, who never did before. Because of your tenacity.

Cheer up, my friend. This is FAR from over. (Shoot, some still believe Elvis had a "heart attack." You can never convince everyone, no matter what. But you can try. So long as you know what's true, you can't give up.)

That's how I feel.

rjm

Sent From My Phabulous Galaxy Note II Phablet Using Tapatalk 4

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:18 am

I gotta say it, eligain. When you are wearing a traditional suit jacket that covers your butt, and you get ready to sit down, what do you do? You grab the bottom of the jacket, lift it from your butt, and sit.

No one sits on the jacket/blazer, so you grab the bottom as you are sitting! I buy old-fashioned blazers that cover my butt, and it's freagin' INSTINCT! You lift up the bottom, and situate yourself. In a car, or anywhere.

rjm

Sent From My Phabulous Galaxy Note II Phablet Using Tapatalk 4

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:40 am

mark wrote:That recreation of the assassination is wrong.The bullet hole in JFK'S jacket is hole 5 3/4 inches below the necklineThe bullet hole in JFK'S shirt is hole 5 3/4 inches below the necklineAt frame 223 in the Zapruder Gov Connally is not reaction to being hit yetAt frame 225 It shows President Kennedy being hitAt frame 232-235 it shows Gov Connally being hit.

Frame 313 fatal hit to President Kennedy

Running time of the Zapruder film 18.3 frames per second.

Time to shoot the rifle and reload a round into the chamber 2.3 secondsTime between frames 223-235 1.6 seconds.

Gov Connally His wounds included an entry wound in the back near the right shoulder, a broken rib, an exit wound in the chest, a shattered wrist caused by a bullet entering from the dorsal (back) side, and a fragment lodged in his thigh.

If he his hit the same time as President Kennedy how could hold onto that 10 gal hat of his?

If the Zapruder film runs at 18.3 frames per second and there are 13 frames between frames 223-235, how does that equal 1.6 seconds? My math says it's just over half a second, .7 seconds. You state that Kennedy reacts to being hit on frame 225 so it is really .4 seconds in between Kennedy and Connally reacting to being hit.

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:45 am

eligain wrote:

drjohncarpenter wrote:

eligain wrote:The bullet holes 5 3/4 in below the neckline have always been explained that Kennedy's shirt and jacket were bunched up in the back when he sat down and you can see this in the film footage of the motorcade.

Nah.

You can't see that his jacket is bunched up in the back?

I'm sorry, but your comments indicate that you know very little about the events of 11-22-1963, and haven't even bothered to read my comments on this topic with care -- or at all.

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:30 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:

eligain wrote:

drjohncarpenter wrote:

eligain wrote:The bullet holes 5 3/4 in below the neckline have always been explained that Kennedy's shirt and jacket were bunched up in the back when he sat down and you can see this in the film footage of the motorcade.

Nah.

You can't see that his jacket is bunched up in the back?

I'm sorry, but your comments indicate that you know very little about the events of 11-22-1963, and haven't even bothered to read my comments on this topic with care -- or at all.

And he can't produce a photo to back up the claims in those recent documentaries in which they play with computers. Not to mention that he, and several others, missed your main point. It isn't about "how" it happened! (That it foundational, yes, but that is not the POINT, which you stressed so well.)

YOUR point was precise: to stop playing parlor games, and to ask "why" and "who did it benefit?" Along with the question of the long term results: it has frightened every president since.

Where I gave credit where credit is due? (To the "Elvis-bear." Cute avatar!)

rjm

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:59 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:

eligain wrote:

drjohncarpenter wrote:

eligain wrote:The bullet holes 5 3/4 in below the neckline have always been explained that Kennedy's shirt and jacket were bunched up in the back when he sat down and you can see this in the film footage of the motorcade.

Nah.

You can't see that his jacket is bunched up in the back?

I'm sorry, but your comments indicate that you know very little about the events of 11-22-1963, and haven't even bothered to read my comments on this topic with care -- or at all.

No, I know quite a bit. I voraciously read every book and have watched every documentary after seeing the movie "Executive Action" and the CBS Special on the assassination as a kid in 1973. I pretty much gorged on it all 30 years ago and 20 years ago during the frenzies of the 20th and 30th anniversaries. After that, I stopped and came to the conclusion that we will never know the total truth and it's just too exhausting to keep playing the "parlor game". Here we are 20 years after the 30th anniversary and nothing really new has been revealed. But there are some facts that can be seen by the naked eye and that have been proven by computer and in the field reenactment but like you said, they don't reveal why it happened.

By the way, you're wrong about the media not mentioning the 79 House Select Committee conclusions. I heard it mentioned like 3 times just this week.

Last edited by eligain on Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:06 pm

rjm wrote:I gotta say it, eligain. When you are wearing a traditional suit jacket that covers your butt, and you get ready to sit down, what do you do? You grab the bottom of the jacket, lift it from your butt, and sit.

No one sits on the jacket/blazer, so you grab the bottom as you are sitting! I buy old-fashioned blazers that cover my butt, and it's freagin' INSTINCT! You lift up the bottom, and situate yourself. In a car, or anywhere.

rjm

Sent From My Phabulous Galaxy Note II Phablet Using Tapatalk 4

Women may do this but most men don't. Watch the footage of Kennedy getting in the limo and riding in the motorcade. He doesn't do this and you can see the jacket raised up in the back at the collar. He also has his right arm on the ledge of the car which raises his jacket further. Plus he is wearing a back brace which would cause this to happen even more.

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:17 pm

eligain wrote:

rjm wrote:I gotta say it, eligain. When you are wearing a traditional suit jacket that covers your butt, and you get ready to sit down, what do you do? You grab the bottom of the jacket, lift it from your butt, and sit.

No one sits on the jacket/blazer, so you grab the bottom as you are sitting! I buy old-fashioned blazers that cover my butt, and it's freagin' INSTINCT! You lift up the bottom, and situate yourself. In a car, or anywhere.

rjm

Sent From My Phabulous Galaxy Note II Phablet Using Tapatalk 4

Women may do this but most men don't. Watch the footage of Kennedy getting in the limo and riding in the motorcade. He doesn't do this and you can see the jacket raised up in the back at the collar. He also has his right arm on the ledge of the car which raises his jacket further. Plus he is wearing a back brace which would cause this to happen even more.

Men do. Otherwise, you're sitting on the jacket! It's just something nobody thinks about. So, it's just a normal thing. And then, after that moment, the jacket is situated, and not bunched. Look at any talk show.

After that, the movement of a jacket depends on the back of the seat, against which the jacket is pressed. Before he reached for his neck with both arms, Kennedy only lifted one arm to wave, but not even all the way up! Just on the car. Make that motion right now, with your back up against a leather or fabric chair-back. Just the arm. Your clothes do not move from the back of the seat! They are pressed against it.

It only "bunched" AFTER he was hit, and started to choke. He put *both* arms way up, fists to his neck, starting to panic, and leaned forward. That was AFTER his jacket and throat were hit. This was not the shot that killed him. So, all you are trying to prove is that ridiculous magic bullet theory, invented by a young attorney for the Warren Commission, Arlen Spector. Not a forensic specialist.

Connally had more than one wound! So, it's ridiculous, and not worth the time and trouble. All happened prior to the fatal shot. You don't even need that bullet in a scenario from the back, anyway. The only shot in question is the one that killed him. Period.

Have fun with your magic bullet; it means nothing, except as a distraction.

I have a problem with what I see clearly on film of the head shot, and the death photos later released, but that's a long story. I need references to go through that. There are many conflicting accounts. Which is disturbing in itself.

But a magic bullet? Hogwash. The very name is sarcastic! And that "simulation" is not very convincing; it doesn't even explain Connally's wounds. Nor does it explain his interview after the shooting.

rjm

Sent From My Phabulous Galaxy Note II Phablet Using Tapatalk 4

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:37 am

rjm wrote:

eligain wrote:

rjm wrote:I gotta say it, eligain. When you are wearing a traditional suit jacket that covers your butt, and you get ready to sit down, what do you do? You grab the bottom of the jacket, lift it from your butt, and sit.

No one sits on the jacket/blazer, so you grab the bottom as you are sitting! I buy old-fashioned blazers that cover my butt, and it's freagin' INSTINCT! You lift up the bottom, and situate yourself. In a car, or anywhere.

rjm

Sent From My Phabulous Galaxy Note II Phablet Using Tapatalk 4

Women may do this but most men don't. Watch the footage of Kennedy getting in the limo and riding in the motorcade. He doesn't do this and you can see the jacket raised up in the back at the collar. He also has his right arm on the ledge of the car which raises his jacket further. Plus he is wearing a back brace which would cause this to happen even more.

Men do. Otherwise, you're sitting on the jacket! It's just something nobody thinks about. So, it's just a normal thing. And then, after that moment, the jacket is situated, and not bunched. Look at any talk show.

After that, the movement of a jacket depends on the back of the seat, against which the jacket is pressed. Before he reached for his neck with both arms, Kennedy only lifted one arm to wave, but not even all the way up! Just on the car. Make that motion right now, with your back up against a leather or fabric chair-back. Just the arm. Your clothes do not move from the back of the seat! They are pressed against it.

It only "bunched" AFTER he was hit, and started to choke. He put *both* arms way up, fists to his neck, starting to panic, and leaned forward. That was AFTER his jacket and throat were hit. This was not the shot that killed him. So, all you are trying to prove is that ridiculous magic bullet theory, invented by a young attorney for the Warren Commission, Arlen Spector. Not a forensic specialist.

Connally had more than one wound! So, it's ridiculous, and not worth the time and trouble. All happened prior to the fatal shot. You don't even need that bullet in a scenario from the back, anyway. The only shot in question is the one that killed him. Period.

Have fun with your magic bullet; it means nothing, except as a distraction.

I have a problem with what I see clearly on film of the head shot, and the death photos later released, but that's a long story. I need references to go through that. There are many conflicting accounts. Which is disturbing in itself.

But a magic bullet? Hogwash. The very name is sarcastic! And that "simulation" is not very convincing; it doesn't even explain Connally's wounds. Nor does it explain his interview after the shooting.

rjm

Sent From My Phabulous Galaxy Note II Phablet Using Tapatalk 4

Sorry but if you watch the footage, he doesn't pull the jacket down when he sits in the limo. He wasn't doing a talk show. Look at the footage of him riding in the motorcade you can clearly see the jacket raised up in the back. The "magic bullet" have been proven to be not magic at all by the way Kennedy and Connally were seated and how they react in the Zapruter film plus it has been successfully duplicated. BTW, conspiracy buffs named it the magic bullet and Connally's wounds are perfectly explained.

The head wound is explained by ballistics and physics and it came from behind

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:00 am

I have seen the reconstruction many times, and even got some people to try it out.

This IS a parlor game, which goes in circles.

Here's something I'm re-reading now, that speaks to WHY.

Consider dropping the computer games and reading it, or many good books about the political and social meaning of what happened.

And put down the reasonable doubt games. Because that's all they prove. But the "why"? That requires more study.

rjm

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Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:04 am

eligain wrote:

drjohncarpenter wrote:

eligain wrote:

drjohncarpenter wrote:

eligain wrote:The bullet holes 5 3/4 in below the neckline have always been explained that Kennedy's shirt and jacket were bunched up in the back when he sat down and you can see this in the film footage of the motorcade.

Nah.

You can't see that his jacket is bunched up in the back?

I'm sorry, but your comments indicate that you know very little about the events of 11-22-1963, and haven't even bothered to read my comments on this topic with care -- or at all.

No, I know quite a bit.

Nah.

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:22 am

rjm wrote:I have seen the reconstruction many times, and even got some people to try it out.

This IS a parlor game, which goes in circles.

Here's something I'm re-reading now, that speaks to WHY.

Consider dropping the computer games and reading it, or many good books about the political and social meaning of what happened.

And put down the reasonable doubt games. Because that's all they prove. But the "why"? That requires more study.

rjm

Sent From My Phabulous Galaxy Note II Phablet Using Tapatalk 4

We will probably never know why Oswald killed President Kennedy.

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:27 am

ranskal wrote:

rjm wrote:I have seen the reconstruction many times, and even got some people to try it out.

This IS a parlor game, which goes in circles.

Here's something I'm re-reading now, that speaks to WHY.

Consider dropping the computer games and reading it, or many good books about the political and social meaning of what happened.

And put down the reasonable doubt games. Because that's all they prove. But the "why"? That requires more study.

rjm

Sent From My Phabulous Galaxy Note II Phablet Using Tapatalk 4

We will probably never know why Oswald killed President Kennedy.

You mean you lack MOTIVE?

Reasonable doubt.

Why do people wish to convict this dead man, murdered in police custody?

What is your motive? Because under our system, the man is guilty of nothing!

rjm

Sent From My Phabulous Galaxy Note II Phablet Using Tapatalk 4

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:39 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:

eligain wrote:

drjohncarpenter wrote:

eligain wrote:

drjohncarpenter wrote:

eligain wrote:The bullet holes 5 3/4 in below the neckline have always been explained that Kennedy's shirt and jacket were bunched up in the back when he sat down and you can see this in the film footage of the motorcade.

Nah.

You can't see that his jacket is bunched up in the back?

I'm sorry, but your comments indicate that you know very little about the events of 11-22-1963, and haven't even bothered to read my comments on this topic with care -- or at all.

No, I know quite a bit.

Nah.

Yah.

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:49 am

rjm wrote:I have seen the reconstruction many times, and even got some people to try it out.

This IS a parlor game, which goes in circles.

Here's something I'm re-reading now, that speaks to WHY.

Consider dropping the computer games and reading it, or many good books about the political and social meaning of what happened.

And put down the reasonable doubt games. Because that's all they prove. But the "why"? That requires more study.

rjm

Sent From My Phabulous Galaxy Note II Phablet Using Tapatalk 4

I've read it. Just more of the parlor game. Doesn't follow up on assertions but makes some interesting points but I found it tedious. Much better books out there.

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:50 am

eligain wrote:

rjm wrote:I have seen the reconstruction many times, and even got some people to try it out.

This IS a parlor game, which goes in circles.

Here's something I'm re-reading now, that speaks to WHY.

Consider dropping the computer games and reading it, or many good books about the political and social meaning of what happened.

And put down the reasonable doubt games. Because that's all they prove. But the "why"? That requires more study.

rjm

Sent From My Phabulous Galaxy Note II Phablet Using Tapatalk 4

I've read it and I've read them. Just more of the parlor game. Doesn't follow up on assertions but makes some interesting points but I found it tedious. Much better books out there.

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:14 am

Sometimes the toughest thing to do is to read a piece, or watch a documentary, in which you know you're not likely to agree with the conclusion(s) drawn. Human nature dictates that we are drawn to opinions with which we agree, and we prefer to bolster our opinions with those of like thinking. That happens a lot on this forum.

Fight that off. Study both sides.

Re: More Lost Film Of JFK Motorcade

Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:36 am

ranskal wrote:

rjm wrote:I have seen the reconstruction many times, and even got some people to try it out.

This IS a parlor game, which goes in circles.

Here's something I'm re-reading now, that speaks to WHY.

Consider dropping the computer games and reading it, or many good books about the political and social meaning of what happened.

And put down the reasonable doubt games. Because that's all they prove. But the "why"? That requires more study.