The "form over function" argument is about Apple trying to shave a couple of millimeter from the plastic housing (to make the iphone smaller in physical size) and sacriface the function of end users' ability to (1) use an extended battery or (2) swap batteries.

For example, the LG Voyager comes with 2 standard batteries --- so the end users can swap them. You can also buy the optional extended battery for the Voyager.

Yes, but you are making the unwarranted assumption that the concept of a removable battery is a part of the designed function of the device from the start (it is not). The removable battery originates in a design failure so you can't logically argue that you are adding function by forcing this failure on another product that doesn't need it.

Technically, by adding removable batteries to an iPod or iPhone, you would be destroying the form for no reason as the function of the thing is both fine as it is and exactly as designed. The new product, by reason of it's now removable battery would have some minor advantages and some minor disadvantages as well. I would argue that the disadvantages would outweigh the advantages, but in either case it would be an entirely new product.

In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...

Just because you can't admit that you're wrong on the topic don't take it out on me with your warped distortions. It was the NY Times not me that said "Unless Apple does something about its battery problem, the iPhone will always be more a toy than a tool. "
Sorry- you loose.

If the NYT writes sommething you agree with, it must be true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wizard69

Not likely! Moreso people discard phones by throwing them into a recycling box.

As you've stated, it's more than just hte battery that needs to be properly recycled so having widespread access to bins for disposing of all electronics is the best way. It has to second nature and simple for the consumer or it's not going to work.

Also, there are plenty of devices that have batteries that one never accesses. Would these be exempt? Will the simple 2 screw access for the iPhone be too complex for RoHS? There are too many questions and not enough answers for some people to be claiming that Apple products will all get easily removed battery doors.

PS: Who was the first to use a Li-Ion battery as standard in a PMP? How much of a positive impact have those batteries had over the deposable alkaline batteries that came before it?

Quote:

Besides that who is saying that people can't replace an iPhone battery? The directions are right on the net. This sort of regulation is a fine example of government treating people like imbeciles.

It involves less steps than adding RAM or replacing a HDD in a MacBook.

Quote:

As a side note I don't like Apples integrated battery approach for other reasons. One big issue is that if you discharge the battery you are basically screwed until you can plug into a recharger. This unfortunately eliminates iPod Touch and IPhone from a lot of potential industrial uses. On the otherhand I still believe Apple has the right to market it's product as it sees fit. As others have already pointed out iPhone is a more durable device due to it's construction.

Now that is a valid reason for wanting a tool-free replaceable battery!

Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"

Yes, but you are making the unwarranted assumption that the concept of a removable battery is a part of the designed function of the device from the start (it is not). The removable battery originates in a design failure so you can't logically argue that you are adding function by forcing this failure on another product that doesn't need it.

Technically, by adding removable batteries to an iPod or iPhone, you would be destroying the form for no reason as the function of the thing is both fine as it is and exactly as designed. The new product, by reason of it's now removable battery would have some minor advantages and some minor disadvantages as well. I would argue that the disadvantages would outweigh the advantages, but in either case it would be an entirely new product.

So let's design cars where you can't get under the hood and are sealed shut for design purposes.
The fact is - you will be adding a useable function to the device not destroying its form. The designed function in this case destroys a much needed function.
Most iPhones are in cases anyway- you rarely see their backsides.

I'm surprised that there are so many, anybody actually, that sees this as anything more than the corruption that is rampant in the EU. The only possible reason for such regulation is the protection of EU companies from innovative American companies. After it became obvious this year that European regulations and standards are up for sale to the highest bidder, can anyone look at these regs as anything other than servicing the interests of big EU businesses.

That's what I said!! If you make it possible for everyone to buy new batteries from the internet or wal-mart or whatever they are going to go home, switch it out and chuck the old battery in the trash. Call it ignorance if you want but that's just how it is...

Dude- I've been stating that for months and so has the NY Times- Don't you listen?

No, no you haven't. Giving you the benefit of the doubtagainI did a Google search for Teckstud+discharge and Teckstud+drain. Apparently Google isn't your friend.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigmc6000

That's what I said!! If you make it possible for everyone to buy new batteries from the internet or wal-mart or whatever they are going to go home, switch it out and chuck the old battery in the trash. Call it ignorance if you want but that's just how it is...

That does seem like the most likely result. Going to the opposite end of RoHS, requiring batteries to only be changed by certified companies with proper disposal training would benefit the environment more, but would be a pain for the consumer.

Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"

No, no you haven't. Giving you the benefit of the doubt—again—I did a Google search for Teckstud+discharge and Teckstud+drain. Apparently Google isn't your friend.

That does seem like the most likely result. Going to the opposite end of RoHS, requiring batteries to only be changed by certified companies with proper disposal training would benefit the environment more, but would be a pain for the consumer.

You're probably the only consumer that would complain and whine if they had the option to replace their phone battery themself.
You should look up my prior posts here AI on replaceable iPhone batteries if your memory is that weak.

That does seem like the most likely result. Going to the opposite end of RoHS, requiring batteries to only be changed by certified companies with proper disposal training would benefit the environment more, but would be a pain for the consumer.

So why not leave it as it is now? If you mandate certified replacements only then the consumers are annoyed and if you mandate user-replaceable batteries now the environment is taking a hit because the consumer is just going to chuck the old one in the trash.

What are they going to do next? Mandate biodegradable batteries? (if that were possible and could actually contend with Li-Ion then we'd really have something that consumers, environmentalists and the gov't can agree on!)

That's what I said!! If you make it possible for everyone to buy new batteries from the internet or wal-mart or whatever they are going to go home, switch it out and chuck the old battery in the trash. Call it ignorance if you want but that's just how it is...

I can tell you that for example in Holland most people will not just trow a battery in the trash. Perhaps you should teach your children different instead of just ignoring the problem.

I can tell you that for example in Holland most people will not just trow a battery in the trash. Perhaps you should teach your children different instead of just ignoring the problem.

Well good for Holland. I can tell you that in Texas we don't pay income tax. Perhaps you should teach everyone you know to move here or Florida (also doesn't charge income tax).

Or, maybe, just maybe, people in Holland don't just chuck them because it's easy to find a place to get rid of them. That's not the case in America. Given an easy option of recycling most people will do it but few will go well out of their way for something as small as a battery...

I'm surprised that there are so many, anybody actually, that sees this as anything more than the corruption that is rampant in the EU. The only possible reason for such regulation is the protection of EU companies from innovative American companies. After it became obvious this year that European regulations and standards are up for sale to the highest bidder, can anyone look at these regs as anything other than servicing the interests of big EU businesses.

Dave

Well, new progressive CO2 emission rules for cars passed the European parliament, taking most of the German car industry by surprise. Even with their power and influence they couldn't buy off the vote and now have to make their engines more fuel efficient. Trade rules have politicking all over them, but not all rules service the interests of EU business, particularly environmental regulations.

Well good for Holland. I can tell you that in Texas we don't pay income tax. Perhaps you should teach everyone you know to move here or Florida (also doesn't charge income tax).

Or, maybe, just maybe, people in Holland don't just chuck them because it's easy to find a place to get rid of them. That's not the case in America. Given an easy option of recycling most people will do it but few will go well out of their way for something as small as a battery...

good point! perhaps we should also stop paying tax and start throwing all our trash on the street
hmm or perhaps it is so easy for us to recycle because we're paying tax?

Back on topic, this quote from the European Commission website kind of implies that Apple doesn't really have to fear this new law:

What does "batteries and accumulators can be readily removed" mean?
End-users or professionals (e.g. appliance service centres, waste treatment facilities) should be able to remove batteries from appliances. The instructions showing how the batteries can be readily and safely removed should also specify who, in the view of the manufacturer, is the best person to safely remove the battery. (source: http://ec.europa.eu/environment/wast..._directive.pdf)

I'm surprised that there are so many, anybody actually, that sees this as anything more than the corruption that is rampant in the EU. The only possible reason for such regulation is the protection of EU companies from innovative American companies. After it became obvious this year that European regulations and standards are up for sale to the highest bidder, can anyone look at these regs as anything other than servicing the interests of big EU businesses.

Sure, because we all know that every government in the world is as corrupt as the US government -- and the only motivation for government action is collusion with business.

You know, in some places, the news media actually investigates and is able to report to the public when the government is in bed with large corporations. And in many cases it topples the government (eg. Chretien). As opposed to "more local news/paranoia" or "more celebrity gossip". Sure, major cities like NYC have some real news sources, but the majority of news media across the US is just plain nonsense for people who lack the time and/or education to analyze the world around them in terms other than job security, consumption, and paranoia.

So please, quit preaching the religion that "government is evil" and that "the market will act in the public's best interest". Some of us actually understand the proper role of government in capitalism, and believe that as long as there are investigators and media ensuring government doesn't get too cozy with private interests, it can act in the public interest quite well (environmental protection, basic standards for health care and education). We understand that private interests do not necessarily align with public interests. And that the average consumer doesn't necessarily have the power or time to make the two align. Especially when the only major voice they have (the government) has very little power to change anything (eg. the failed attempts to implement a public health care system in the US in the face of massive FUD campaigns and payoffs/lobbying from private interests).

Or, maybe, just maybe, people in Holland don't just chuck them because it's easy to find a place to get rid of them. That's not the case in America. Given an easy option of recycling most people will do it but few will go well out of their way for something as small as a battery...

The 'evil, corrupt (hopefully that has covered themall)' EU has passed a law requiring businesses that sell batteries to collect back similar battery types for recycling.

Introduced with RoHS, the EU's 2006 Battery Directive updated existing regulation from 1991.
...
While the Battery Directive now in force states that it must be easy for consumers to remove batteries from electronic products, the "New Batteries Directive" now being drafted over the next year goes even further to state that electrical equipment must be designed to allow that batteries be 'readily removed' for replacement or removal at the end of product's life.

Does anyone actually research their sources before publishing an article with 0% news value?

From the Directive regulation 1991:Article 5
Member States shall take measures to ensure that batteries and accumulators cannot be incorporated into appliances unless they can be readily removed, when spent, by the consumer.

From the Directive regulation 2006:Article 11
Removal of waste batteries and accumulators
Member States shall ensure that manufacturers design appliances in such a way that waste batteries and accumulators can be readily removed. Appliances into which batteries and accumulators are incorporated shall be accompanied by instructions showing how they can be removed safely and, where appropriate, informing the end-user of the type of the incorporated batteries and accumulators.

In the Directive regulation 2008 are no changes mentioned concerning article 11

I can't believe some of the reactions I read here, it's pretty sad to be honest.
The EU is trying to do some good for our planet by giving the industry some simple and really not so difficult rules. As you can read in the article they have done this before and with good result. The industry is forced to find new solutions and by doing this they might even improve quality.
Apple is proudly presenting itself as a 'green' company, which is a great development. Some people acually care for the enviroment and it even sells!
And for the people that are so scared of removable batteries in their iPod or iPhone... don't be, it's Apple, they will find a beautifull solution for the 'problem' and you might even be happy with this new feature. (the tiny Apple remote is perhaps a good example)

I see no evidence that this helps anything. What proof is there that people commonly recycle their used batteries. I seriously doubt they do. I would imagine a battery would more likely be recycled if it were changed by an authorized repair.

I am FOR laws requiring A: Proper recycling of electronics and batteries, so B: we can keep junk and chemicals of out landfills. Do you know how many cell phones are discarded every year? And for little more than cosmetic or status reasons? Check out http://www.chrisjordan.com/current_set2.php?id=7 for some huge scale images of discarded items, cell phones are about 1/3 of the way down. Now imagine all those in your back yard. In a landfill. Never to be used again, never to biodegrade.

I think the EU has a very good point! It's not because they attack our favourite company that they are wrong. I know that a lot of people in the US don't care about the environment but they should. I don't want a hatch either but I expect Apple to do what they always do and that is think different.

I like my iPhone but what I don't like about it is that I don't know how long the battery will last. I like to charge my phone a lot so I have always a full battery but with the iPhone that isn't possible because it would screw up my battery.

All they have to do is include a crummy battery in the iphone box that plugs into the bottom of the phone..

Then call the internal battery simply just a "back up battery". When the EU says you need a rechargable battery... tell them.. we included one in the box.. and you can buy replacements at our store for $50 each.

They sell these ugly littel battery adapters on other sites now... Sure you'll have europeans walking around with batterys plugged into the bottom of the phone... But better than designing an ugly phone specifically for that market... Just throw in spare plug in battery for that market.

Why don't they target more serious issues like how to recycle these damn electronics. Create a recylcling program to encourage Joe sixpack to bring his broken electronics to a recycling center. Give electronic stores some incentive to being a recycling drop-off location. In the US, we get credit for returning used car batteries to the auto parts store, why not do that for these toxic products.

And who the hell walks around with an extra battery in their pocket. What? The wallet and keys aren't enough to weigh your pants down?

After 3 netbooks from acer, toshiba, hp, I find contentment in my 11.6 MB Air. Hoping the 8-hr battery version shows up soon.

I think the EU has a very good point! It's not because they attack our favourite company that they are wrong. I know that a lot of people in the US don't care about the environment but they should. I don't want a hatch either but I expect Apple to do what they always do and that is think different.

I like my iPhone but what I don't like about it is that I don't know how long the battery will last. I like to charge my phone a lot so I have always a full battery but with the iPhone that isn't possible because it would screw up my battery.

A user replaceable battery doesn't automatically help the environment. Most people get new phones long before the battery dies. If people did get a new battery, how many would recycle the old battery.

Apple has said the iPhone battery is designed to last for several years, before you would need a new battery.

I see no evidence that this helps anything. What proof is there that people commonly recycle their used batteries. I seriously doubt they do. I would imagine a battery would more likely be recycled if it were changed by an authorized repair.

Seems like Apple already has it covered - and for more then just the battery too

I like the idea of a European iPhone that ditches the internal battery and instead sports one plugged into the dock connector. Would serve 'em right.

I, for one, appreciate the non-removable battery as it makes the iPhone that much slimmer, which means I can slip it into my pocket and not have to deal with a stupid holder like I do with my work provided blackberry

If and when I need to replace my battery, I will do it myself. Just like I did with my 2nd Generation iPod (not that the battery didn't work, I just wanted to put a newer, high capacity battery in it). There are many third party options for battery replacement and Apple has a very reasonably priced option (not much more then the cost of a replacement battery by itself) for those who don't or won't find the third party options.

My last three cell phones had removable batteries - the only time I removed them was to get the serial number for the phone

I doubt it. Why would Apple engineers come up with something when to date no one else has? Apple does not make batteries. They buy them just like everyone else.

By this continued "Apple" is the inventor of all things wonderful, you would assume that we all sit and wait for manna to drop from Culpertino.

Who said anything about Apple manufacturing their own batteries?!

No one else has because it is cheaper to keep things the way they've always been than to come up with something that looks and feels good. When was the last time you've seen phone makers change their phones to make them easier to use? Other than Qwerty keyboards they did not improve or even try to improve their phones!

I see no evidence that this helps anything. What proof is there that people commonly recycle their used batteries. I seriously doubt they do. I would imagine a battery would more likely be recycled if it were changed by an authorized repair.

My thoughts exactly. It is easier to throw a battery in the trash than to throw a phone. When I am done with my phone I usually sell it on ebay, give it to someone, or sell it to phone repair shops. On the other hand, a defective battery has no value and is easier, for most people, to dispose in the trash instead trying to recycle it.

Yes, but you are making the unwarranted assumption that the concept of a removable battery is a part of the designed function of the device from the start (it is not). The removable battery originates in a design failure so you can't logically argue that you are adding function by forcing this failure on another product that doesn't need it.

Technically, by adding removable batteries to an iPod or iPhone, you would be destroying the form for no reason as the function of the thing is both fine as it is and exactly as designed. The new product, by reason of it's now removable battery would have some minor advantages and some minor disadvantages as well. I would argue that the disadvantages would outweigh the advantages, but in either case it would be an entirely new product.

You are making the assumption that the iphone should be this big and this heavy in the first place.

The fact is that the LG Voyager's standard battery is 950 mah and their extended battery is 1500 mah. The iphone has a standard battery of 1400 mah --- which basically means that everybody is carrying an "extended battery" for the iphone already.

Most people have plastic or leather cases for their iphones --- the backside is covered up anyway.

My thoughts exactly. It is easier to throw a battery in the trash than to throw a phone. When I am done with my phone I usually sell it on ebay, give it to someone, or sell it to phone repair shops. On the other hand, a defective battery has no value and is easier, for most people, to dispose in the trash instead trying to recycle it.

It's about public education. It's not that hard to recycle batteries and CFL light bulbs --- IKEA and Home Depot.

It's about public education. It's not that hard to recycle batteries and CFL light bulbs --- IKEA and Home Depot.

Even so, regulations should encourage recycling. User replaceable batteries might or might not be recycled since it depends on the user. In my opinion, it is more effective (for environmental purposes) to have the battery replaced by the manufacturer or authorized technician since they must recycle their waste products. The trip to those centers shouldn't be a problem since the user have to mail or drive to recycle the battery anyway.

My argument is not about the iPhone. It is about the proposed regulations and how it will be better for the environment. As you said, user replaceable batteries depends on public education. On the other hand, inaccessible batteries are much more likely to be recycled when properly replaced.

But a cell phone, pay a $25 recycle deposit in advance. When you finish using the cell phone, send it back to the manufacturer to recycle and get back the $25 deposit.

This doesn't make sense since the first buyer will lose the deposit if he sells the phone. As I said before, I never knew anyone who actually threw away their phones even really old ones. There is always someone welling to buy them but no one really want to buy a battery when it no long works. I think the easiest way is to offer a reward for recycling old phones ($5 for a phone with a battery is better than nothing). I know there are many programs for donating phones here in the States such as "Cell phones for soldiers" where they recycle your phone (you don't even have to pay for shipping).

No one else has because it is cheaper to keep things the way they've always been than to come up with something that looks and feels good. When was the last time you've seen phone makers change their phones to make them easier to use? Other than Qwerty keyboards they did not improve or even try to improve their phones!

And I was commention on it. Regardless, unless someone else comes up with a major battery or mobile power source innovation that Apple can buy, they too will be stuck just like everyone else.

By the way, good luck with your interview with Apple. You will fit in there perfectly.

I know what I've posted. When there is demand there will be innovation. Someone will figure out that a smaller more efficient batteries are profitable. Otherwise, we would still be using batteries as big as most current cell phones! On their part, Apple can figure out a way to make these batteries user replaceable without compromise to the form and sleekness.

Note: If you want to engage in civilized conversation I suggest you keep it civilized. There is no need for personal attacks and bad attitude toward others. I have never offended you nor your opinion in anyway. If you feel offended by people expressing their admiration of Apple then you might be in the wrong place. And by the way, I can't work at Apple even if I wanted to since my profession has nothing to do with computers and software.

I know what I've posted. When there is demand there will be innovation. Someone will figure out that a smaller more efficient batteries are profitable. Otherwise, we would still be using batteries as big as most current cell phones! On their part, Apple can figure out a way to make these batteries user replaceable without compromise to the form and sleekness.

The problem is that battery efficiency is a 1000x slower in innovation than the silicon valley's need for more powerful CPU's and bigger LCD screens.....