How does one go about "disputing" MMA? Or tennis? Or woodworking? There's nothing to "dispute"--one is either interested, in some or all of these, or one is not.

Traditional karate has some value - especially in developing a strong right punch, and isn't this the instinctual technique in a self defense situation?

I'm a southpaw. Talk to the hand. No, that one. 'Course, one could argue that southpaws should make sure they get enough right-hand training. Balance, symmetry, that sort of thing. Meanwhile, instinct may or may not be useful in a fight, depending on a number of variables.

That's the point I was making, short and simple.

*looks at thread*

Congratulations on having a very creative definition of the term "short".

* Traditional Karate is not complete bullshit - it taught me to punch better than other styles.

You say you have a kickboxing background. How did karate teach you to punch better than kickboxing? Cause I'm thinking about it, and as your power punch turns from a proper cross to a classical reverse punch, it gets worse, not better- your non-punching hand shifts away from its defensive position, your back heel goes to the ground so you can't pivot on the ball of the foot and whip the hip as quickly, your stance gets overly wide yet narrow which takes away from the punching dynamics as well, and your head is not tucked into a defensive position.

* MMA would beat karate in an MMA competition (and most likely in the street as well - but that would depend on the individuals, wouldn't it?).

If you're saying this is one of your key principles, then stop saying people are "bashing you" when they say it too.

* Real fights end quickly - reverse punch with your strongest arm is instinctively one of the first weapons of choice ... therefore traditional karate and its emphasis on strong linear reverse punches has some realistic value.

-real fights are all sorts of lengths; they can last seconds or hours.

-reverse punch is a straight thrusting technique that starts with the palm up. Look up random streetfights and you don't see reverse punches- you see hammerfists, hammerslaps, haymakers and whipping fists. You don't tend to see good elbow dynamics of straight punches in real fights.

Now the problem with the Kyokushin guys is sometimes they would get into a scrap at a local night club or pub. The one thing I noticed out of the few of those scraps I witnessed was that these guys would react in a real confrontation with a series of chest punches. Now this is obviously a generalisation, it is not to state that all Kyokushin fighters would react this way - however I remember thinking at the times when these scraps happened, that maybe these guys reacted this way because a lot of their free sparring involved lots of body work and very little head work.

First of all, if you can punch to the chest, you can punch to the face. It is not so ingrained in you that you can't simply adjust. Second, you are aware of the famous MMA fighter with a background in kyokushin, right? I'll give you a hint, GSP.

You stated that the ultimate goal of 'the way' of martial arts is to kick butt. Perhaps for some martial arts but not necessarily for others. I joined Shito Ryu Shukokai because I am approaching middle age, I was slightly overweight and wanted to improve my health and fitness, flexibility, coordination, balance and self confidence. I needed stress release from the day to day grind. For me, karate was very effective in assisting me to reach these goals.

You don't think this would be one issue people have with Karate? I mean, if you just want to improve health, fitness, flexibility, coordination, balance, and self confidence, all you need is a gym with a yoga class. Just because you started doing it for those reasons, doesn't mean that Karate is designed for that. It was designed as a combat system. Those other things are extra benefit that you can get without going to a Karate dojo. But if you can only get those things, and you can't learn to fight well, you must wonder, why am I here?

As far as learning the "reverse punch" or cross or whatever you chose to call it. No that is not my go-to punch. I prefer a lead hand hook. It is closer to the opponent, you can deliver it with power, it comes from behind lots of people's defense, and most people don't see it coming.

I dunno. I used to train at a dojo with "actual" tough guys and we sparred with hard contact all the time. The competitions we entered were point sparring but that didn't mean I didn't get used to getting a beating a few times per week in training. So for what it's worth, I feel my black belt does mean something as I earned it with blood and pain and actual fighting. The couple of times I've goofed around with wrestlers I got thrashed. Doesn't mean my karate is useless, just means that my grappling is. C'est la vie. Only so many hours in the week.

Yes, I agree there are some tough guys doing traditional karate - some of those Kyokushin guys are really tough, but I think it was sometimes more the man than the style. I was watched a Kyokushin competition once where a yellow belt guy won some kind of open men's division. The announcer told the crowd that 'here was an example of true warrior spirit'. Even though the guy had only trained a little while, he was beating guys with years of experience. He just wouldn't give up. Speaking of the announcer, he was a Kyokushin instructor and at one time coach for the Australian Kyokushin team. In a detailed conversation I had with him, he explained his concept of Budo ... he went along the lines that he would never accept his students cross training in another karate or other form of striking style, but he was more than happy for them to go learn judo for the grappling skills and also kendo. If my memory serves me well, he did not like the idea of them learning aikido though.

Why? Because I'm being honest about what I think? Because my point of view is different? No it is YOU who needs to be quiet. I've done some lurking and from reading your posts on this and other threads, clearly you're a troll - cause you're just down right nasty to people. Don't bother with a reply, you are not worth the time or energy with a come back.

Back off MMA

Originally Posted by Jimmy Needer

Why? Because I'm being honest about what I think? Because my point of view is different? No it is YOU who needs to be quiet. I've done some lurking and from reading your posts on this and other threads, clearly you're a troll - cause you're just down right nasty to people. Don't bother with a reply, you are not worth the time or energy with a come back.

It's the forum you are in that is the source of your frustration. Put up a post in Newbietown and say hello.