I just wanted to update you all on the fact that I ended the affair. It wasn’t easy and it was hard to let go. There were many tears, but I suppose we both knew that it wouldn’t last forever. I knew the more immediate it was, the better. Perhaps it could have gone smoother; these things never quite happen how they do in your head.

I will be “mysteriously” leaving the church, and I won’t be in contact with her. I hope to give her time to think. I gave her the choice of being with me or being with her husband, but I gave her my support either way.

We read the blog piece together and one of her last requests was to ask for your advice.

She does love me and her husband, just in different ways. He is a lovely man. She is gay and married him because she was raised thinking homosexuality is a sin. She knew he was a kind man and that she would have security so took the chance she thought God had given to “correct” herself. To her, he is her best friend. Also, she doesn’t want to hurt her children, who are 17, 16 and 14. She expressed a desire to leave but she doesn’t know how to. We know that such a thing is damage limitation.

I want what is best for her. I know that it may not be me. Please, we’d be grateful for your and your readers input again.

God bless,

[Anonymous]

I appreciate the pastor’s wife asking for my advice; somewhere along the line here I’ll give it. But for now I want to say only: Look. Look at the devastation that anti-gay “Christian” theology visits upon people’s lives. The woman who wrote me this letter is forced to live a lie about who she is. She’s now had to leave her church. Her lesbian paramour was so convinced that she was an abomination to God that she married and spent her life with a man she could never love in the way straight people love their spouses. Her husband married a lesbian. Their children have grown up with parents living as great and terrible a lie as any that can be told.

All this destruction, all this denial, all this deception, all this suppression, all this perversion of nature, all of this nightmare because straight people are so repulsed by gay people having sex that they twisted the words of their Holy Book in an attempt to legitimize the horrendous lie that Jesus Christ commands that gay people either magically become straight or spend their lives celibate.

And Christian pastors taught and taught and taught the vicious lie that homosexuality is a sin, because nothing puts people in the pews like a punishing God ever ready to distinguish between those living “righteous lives” and everybody else.

How wonderful to be straight, and by that fact alone deserve God’s favor!

Meanwhile, year in and year out, gay kids commit suicide at three times the rate of straight kids.

Thanks to all of you who write to tell me how “Christian” anti-gay bigotry is losing or has lost its power in your own life. I don’t know what I’d do without those testimonies, which so often feel to me like lifelines.

If you’re a Christian—especially a straight Christian—who knows it’s no sin to be gay, make a NALT video.

I appreciate your passion for this issue. It gives me hope that our culture as a whole will eventually get to this place that many of us who have been out for many years already know: that no matter the causation for our orientation, loving another human being is not a sin.

speaktruth

The woman clearly knew the pastors wife was married with children and chose to get involved and you blame Christians? Why didn’t she go after a lesbian not in a relationship? Adultery is wrong also in the bible. You can’t pick and choose your wrongs that you want to make your rights. First there is a living, all knowing and powerful God. Second you are twisting his words. Third, it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God whose words your perverting!

speaktruth

What excuse do you have for the “married” lesbian who leaves her “wife” for another woman? That’s her right? or cheats on her wife committing adultery or adultery is just bad Christians twisting the bible? And the high rates of HIV and domestic violence among lgbt is homophobes twisting the bible?

Happy2BGay

I feel so heartbroken for all of the folks in this letter. Both women, who felt forced to deny who they are because of hellishly twisted theology, the husband and their children. John, your comments are right on target. I pray that the letter writer and her lover find peace in who they really are, and that the husband and children will find it in their hearts to be accepting.

Tim Wilcox

“Truth is God.” Mull over the implications of that statement and apply to this situation as you will.

charlesmaynes

as much as I agree with the piece, betrayal of trust in a marriage is pretty bad as well- if there is a sin, that is where it would be, not in what the gender of the people involved was.

http://youtube.com/user/BowmanFarm Brian Bowman

Betrayal of trust rests on bigoted fundamentalist preachers who taught her that her body was bad and marriage would “un-gay” her.

she was raised thinking homosexuality is a sin. She knew he was a kind man and that she would have security so took the chance she thought God had given to “correct” herself.

charlesmaynes

if this was a homosexual marriage and affair, would it be held to the same standard? The point being this- if the wife was in a bad relationship, having an affair (gender irrelevent) is not going to make it an easier to undo. I guess ultimately, this is where our relationship to God is ours alone, and is totally unique to each of us. If we let others create and control our moral compass, then how much of a moral compass do we have to begin with?

Matt

Telling the truth is what is necessary here. All of it. Nothing held back. No one can decide what to do until everyone actually has all the cards on the table. Allow plenty of time. Strong emotions will be involved. Stay civil. Bring some tissues.

Get the kids involved once the adults have said what they needed to say and made plans for going forward. They are old enough to understand what’s up, and they deserve to know why their parents’ marriage is in serious trouble.

This is such a great posting. John I really like how you put it into perspective. Straight religious demonize gay people, gay people commit suicide, straight religious say it is god’s will, or at least it won’t infect straight religious people. Then when gay Christians claim that they have been demonized wrongly then the straight professional religious just claim that the gay people just don’t know the bible because they know what is right. It is a circular argument that in the center is the demonized gay people and church folk wonder why many gay people don’t go to church and reject their own upbringing within the church. Until the church accepts fully their LGBT neighbor as commanded by Jesus it is going to be a mess.

charlesmaynes

I suppose thats why I originally said that IF there was a sin to be considered- John really did cover that perfectly in my opinion in his original posting-

http://youtube.com/user/BowmanFarm Brian Bowman

Alright, Charles, that suits.

“The ethics of sex is a thorny problem. Each of us is forced to grope for a solution he can live with — in the face of a preposterous, unworkable, and evil code of so-called ‘morals.’ Most of us know the code is wrong; almost everybody breaks it. But we pay Danegeld by feeling guilty and giving lip service. Willy-nilly, the code rides us, dead and stinking, an albatross around the neck.”

~Robert Heinlein, Stranger in a Strange Land

Kathleen Margaret Schwab

When I was a teenager I thought that the idea that God burned people who weren’t Christians in hell in agony for eternity (especially people who lived in the past, or in cultures with no information about Christianity) just didn’t make sense. I got put through hell – pun intended – by fellow Christians before I just learned to keep my mouth shut for the sake of my sanity. I can’t even imagine what being a homosexual must be like, given what I went through over a theological opinion. I am sorry, so so sorry that people were put through this. I am a follower of the way of Jesus. Most of the time i don’t want to call myself a Christian anymore.

charlesmaynes

I agree entirely Brian- we are complicated creatures who often make serious mistakes….

http://youtube.com/user/BowmanFarm Brian Bowman

Same here. I told two pastors in the church study that I didn’t really think it was fair that people got roasted for a hellish eternity for the thoughtcrime of mere skepticism or doubt. Then I said I’d stand in solidarity with those condemned and try to talk god out of it.

Been dechurched ever since (save for a brief stint in a “liberal” church) and I’ve still got people praying for me to believe in the sadistic torture of Hell.

“No, I don’t believe in Hell.” “But if there’s no Hell, then what’s the point of believing in Jesus?” “I’m a Christian because I admire Jesus’ ethical teachings.” “You’re not a Christian and I’ll be praying for you.”

Deana Rivera

This situation hits close to home. My current wife was married to a man when we met at our Christian workplace. Our love ran so deep and happened so fast that we found ourselves in a passionate affair. It took us a year to wade our way out of the muck. There was such darkness in the lie that we lived with day in day out. It wasn’t just the affair that was emotionally and spiritually harming each of us, but it was the whole gay card that we weren’t sure we were ready to play. It is a very very hard place to be. My wife married for similar reasons as the woman who submitted the letter. She also had three children who were 2, 7 and 13 at the time. I won’t elaborate beyond stating that divorce was the only option – the only way to live in honesty and FREEDOM. It wasn’t easy, but looking back now at the eleven years we have spent together out as a couple, we know that being together set things aright. Her kids have thrived and actually have been given the privilege of genuinely knowing their mom – the real her. I’m not one to suggest divorce, but having lived through a similar circumstance I’d say that in the long run, the divorce was the gateway to the truth that set us free. We lost jobs, friends, church homes and all of that loss pales in comparison to the love we share. If you are meant to be together, don’t let fear stop you.

http://johnshore.com/ John Shore

Wow, Deana. What a story. I hope the women who wrote me (and/or the wife) reads it. I guess we know at least one of them will. Very good. Thanks for sharing this.

Bones

Well said, Brian.

Jesus did not come to save us from the Father’s judgement of infinite torture which would be worse than any genocidal maniac.

That’s a lie.

Selkie Syrin

I can’t make a video, but I am a Christian, and I have read enough of my bible to know that cherry picking out one single “abomination” while ignoring all the rest, and setting aside the fact that Jesus brought a new covenant with a single, very easy command as to how we are to treat our fellow man; “Love your neighbor as I have loved you” (this coming from a man who loved all… even the people that the religious leaders of *his* day hated) is nothing but an excuse to religiously validate their own hatred and bigotry. And nothing could be further from the message of Jesus than that.

Judy

One of the first books I read after our son came out was “Stranger at the Gate” Mel White’s story.A straight marriage because it was expected, affairs, remorse, etc, until finally coming clean to all involved, including himself. And all I could think of as I read it was how all that pain could have been avoided if we paid attention to God and HIs word and not man’s interpretation of it. I applaud the original writer for ending things, I am sure it was not easy. As to the pastor’s wife, I pray that it goes well for her if she chooses to tell her husband. She needs a concrete plan for worst case scenario if it does not go well.

Andy

You know, I was thinking about something the other day. Sartre famously said (as translated into English) “hell is other people.” And they say Jesus came to save us from hell. Perhaps Jesus came to save us from other people; from hurting and being hurt by other people. If we follow the greatest commandment, we won’t be hurting each other; hence, one could say we were “saved” from the hell that is “other people”. The idea of saving imperfect people from themselves makes more sense in the context of an all-loving God than a literal hell.

Am I way off here? It’s just an idea, anyway.

http://youtube.com/user/BowmanFarm Brian Bowman

I like pursuit of happiness hypothesis. I take Jesus’ hell (actually Zeus’ brother Hades and a smoldering garbage dump called Gehenna) as, what Thomas Jefferson called it, “indulgence to eastern hyperbolism” to punctuate ethical lessons. Today, we’d say something like hyperbolic like “you’re gonna be in a world of shit.” Nobody takes that literally.

If Jesus had used a modern parable and talked about an “engine purring,” theologians today would be formulating doctrine on how there are literal cats in an engine block. Sylvester, Garfield, and the Holy Kitteh.

Anyway, this is Jesus’ best ethical puzzler, compared to Jeremy Bentham’s solution. And remember, Bentham’s ideal is included in the Declaration of Independence. (Replaces one word of John Locke’s famous tripartite phrase.)

http://www.enesvy.com/ Enesvy

Who are you quoting?

Tim Wilcox

Gandhi. Jesus also spoke of Truth, (insert “God” in wherever Jesus says “the truth”) “And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free….I have come into the world, to bear witness to the truth. Every one who is of the truth hears my voice.” Pilate said to him, “What is truth?” ……centuries later Gandhi answers…..^^^

Arthur

Regardless of genders, I’ve seen a number of situations where one partner had an affair in order to make an unsatisfactory marriage so bad that it had to come to an end: a somewhat passive aggressive and messy way of ending a marriage that could have been ended more simply and cleanly. Provided, of course, that they could have found the courage and support to deal with it directly!

RK124

I’d say Jesus came to save us from “ourselves.” We put ourselves through hell. We make selfish choices, foolish choices – “sinful” choices, when we don’t consider the harm it’s doing to us and/or those around us. That’s what sin is, to me. Doing something unloving. If God is love, then sin is an act against love. And Jesus came to set us free, so that we may live in love rather than in sin. He said the entire law and commandments hung upon two: Love God, and love others as yourself. Homosexuality is therefore not a “sin” when it does no harm or anything “unloving” to God, others, or self. Just my thoughts on the matter.

http://youtube.com/user/BowmanFarm Brian Bowman

+1 “Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other “sins” are invented nonsense. (Hurting yourself is not sinful – just stupid).” ~Robert A. Heinlein

RK124

Good quote…although I do think hurting yourself can also be “sinful.” Because, if Jesus tells us to love others “as ourselves”…kind of hard to do if we don’t actually love ourselves, in a way. It seems selfish in a way, but, you can only take care of others if you are also being taken care of as well, ya know?

http://jw-thoughts.blogspot.com/ John

What I wonder throughout this thing is that if homosexual is not a sin, as it is written out in the bible, then else is not a sin? What is sin? How are you picking and choosing what is sin and what is not?

Andy

I probably am not the first one to point this out, but there’s a popular memetic idea that cats think of themselves as gods already, so this seems appropriate.

anakinmcfly

The thing is that the Bible does *not* say that homosexuality is a sin, not in the original non-English languages that were written. Many are the result of uncertain translations that originally referred to male-male rape, man-boy pedophilia, pagan gay sex rituals and so on; they got lumped in under the term ‘homosexuality’ because they involved men having sex with each other, but it no more makes homosexuality per we a sin anymore than men raping women (which is a sin) makes heterosexuality a sin.

(Hey, Andy. WOULD you like to be a moderator on my blog? If so, email me at john AT johnshore DOT com.)

http://www.enesvy.com/ Enesvy

Thanks!

Joe Farrell

All she needed to do was let her husband watch . . . all would be forgiven. Shallow and Trite perhaps – but attacking Christianity for the intolerance of human beings is the shallow triteness.

These rules were made by MEN – not by God. God tells us what he believes is sin – and he challenges us to find a path through that sin to be better humans. Sexual activity before marriage is sin identical in God’s eyes to homosexuality. You can end it by getting married but the sin remains. We are born in sin and live in sin. We need to try to repent of that sin and accept Christ into our hearts to give us a path past sin.

Vengence is mine says the Lord. We are all sinful – let those without sin cast the first stone. Homosexuality is sin and what sin is worst among the sins? Which of the great sins is most abhorrent in God’s eyes? Who are WE to judge? Accept each other and give each the wheat they sow.

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

If you are way off, then at least you ain’t alone. I love the concept you present.

http://jw-thoughts.blogspot.com/ John

Matthew Vines has a very skewed study on the matter. Being that he is homosexual just adds to the bias. You can find many written pieces that refute his claims. What other things can we find to refute from the bible in order to make it more palatable? This is what I see going on anyway. Homosexuality is just as guilty as fornication, adultery, multiple partners and so forth. Being that it is being shoved/pushed/rammed down societies throats these days makes it more pertinent that it has to be confronted and exposed for what it is. Beginning with sin before God. I find it very sad that it sorely excused as a normal way of life and I have great empathy for those who struggle with it to overcome it.

Are you really going to talk about the “damage” Christianity is doing in defense of a home wrecker? What about the damage to the pastor, or do men not have emotions, because we’re just stand ins in a homosexual drama, played out in society by the homosexuals looking for an Oscar for best performance in a victim complex. Christians are obligated to love people, not habitual homosexual activity, practices, or media promotions. I’ve seen a lot of media “apologies”, but I’ve yet to see God issue any retraction statement for calling homosexuality an abomination.

Inability to tell oneself apart from ones sexual orientation was what originally classified homosexuality as a mental disorder. He did not marry a lesbian, he married a biologically heterosexual woman with some wires crossed.She did not have to leave her church, she refused to give up homosexuality. How is adultery not a sin?

She was under no obligation to lead him on, doing so only to maintain lying ambiguity, as a mental escape for the issues she didn’t feel like dealing with. Heterosexual or otherwise, cheating woman aren’t rational to begin with. They’re escapist who use emotion as justification to stray into the pastures, leaving the coral open to comfortably go back and forth. Suicide isn’t a gay issue, and if someone takes their life gay or otherwise, obviously they had some serious issues to begin with.

HmmLetMeThink

And? That doesn’t give homosexuals one degree less heat because God is concerned the cosmic PC police will label it a “hate crime”

HmmLetMeThink

It only calls homosexuality an Abomination, that’s so much better. I don’t mind accurate biblical studying, but searching from one translation to another to cherry pick the interpretation of your dreams, in favor of a prohibited practice, is intellectually dishonest.

HmmLetMeThink

Dissatisfaction doesn’t justify cheating. Period!

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

HmmLetMeThink…do I mayhap see a troll?

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

Oh I may have to steal that.

HmmLetMeThink

So, you met an cheating spouse and started shagging like rabbits, I don’t see what the “christian” workplace has to do with it, unless you was fooling around at work. Obviously, they’re not promoting homosexuality or adultery. It took you a year to swim de-nial — oh we didn’t mind doing each other but neither of us was sure we wanted to play the gay card, cause having your cake and eating it is so much more fun than living right — wow!

No thought of the husband who will have to piece himself together without a wife, or kids without their mother, no they’re just obstacles on your path and a blip on your radar, because a husband’s love is somehow inferior to a yours, on the basis of you being a homosexual home wrecker. But you’re being, “honest” with yourself, right? The real her? So, you’re saying lying, cheating, disloyalty are indicative of her “real” character?

It wasn’t easy, but looking back you’re both two swindled, who bought into the same bill of goods, and have to hold onto the same rationalizations, to avoid both coming to the same conclusion of how delusional you’re both really being. You’re not suggesting divorce and self centeredness, as a means of getting what YOU want, you just told that entire story for everyone to have a good cry, right?

Guy Norred

I think I am learning to see the signs. Is it when instead of righteous indignation (which, honestly, I consider a virtue–even in those I disagree with), it is just pure anger coming off the page?

HmmLetMeThink

When did God’s moral prohibitions cease to exist? Jesus said He did not come to abolish the law. Are you saying Christians can be incestual as well, or did Jesus do way with the Levitical incest prohibition?

Guy Norred

I so wish this was actually true, but unfortunately, it is this thinking that is the prime cause of the situation in this letter. Perhaps if enough people start to at least question this thinking, it might not be an issue, but until that time…

Andy

Please do. I didn’t make it, though. I just love seeing it.

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

Condescend much?

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

What in the fuck does any of this have to do with incest…which by the way was perfectly legal, and in some cases encouraged in the Old Testament? (See Abraham and his family tree)

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

Signs are: 1. refusing to acknowledge the person they are trolling about as human beings, using only labels which are used with derision.

4. And lastly, the syndrome called the: “I’m always right, and you are so wrong that your picture appears next to the word in the dictionary, you big doodoohead.” (of course they use less creative language, but on the same grade school level)

Andy

Thinking what? That it doesn’t matter what we think?

Guy Norred

This whole situation was caused by this woman thinking she had to be straight–because that is what all the people around her said. If she had heard at least a few affirming voices, perhaps she wouldn’t have tried to suppress her attraction to women. That is all I mean. In the end, I do agree that it doesn’t matter what we think, but for both good and bad, we are influenced, especially when young, by those around us. If I thought that this message of condemnation would never hurt another vulnerable soul, I would probably shrug it off more easily. In the mean time, I am glad that there are those who stand up against these thoughts.

Matt

So you have personally examined this woman? Given her a full physical assessment with MRI, interpreted it yourself, and seen these “crossed wires”? Newsflash: The brain is not a two-bit TV.

You can reduce a human being built out of billions of tissue cells and trillions of brain cell connections to “crossed wires.” But don’t expect to be taken seriously. You have nothing to add to this discussion.

Jill

Dismissed. Move along.

anakinmcfly

I’ve read some of those refutations and found them unconvincing, mostly because they based their arguments upon information that was patently and demonstrably false.

You have a few other issues with the proper placement of commas, and science, so you might want to look into that.

anakinmcfly

That as may be, I’m genuinely enjoying this one’s use of language. In another comment: “It took you a year to swim de-nial”.

Judy

Epilepsy was once classified as a mental disorder too. Shall we go back to that diagnosis as well and put all epileptics in psychiatric hospitals?

anakinmcfly

“or do men not have emotions, because we’re just stand ins in a homosexual drama, played out in society by the homosexuals looking for an Oscar for best performance in a victim complex.”

It’s odd that you’d say that, given that it’s usually gay males doing said drama; are you equally indignant about the poor women not getting any of the attention in stories about gay men? There are a bunch of those on this blog, I believe. I await your commentary there.

Andy

I know what you mean. I was simply using that meme regarding that one particular comment. Sometimes it’s fun to use different ways of being snarky.

Steven Waling

Before the days of relatively easy divorces, some people would book a hotel room, stay one night with a friend and then pretend adultery had taken place.

ttpog

I have been black listed from a blog entitled ‘If you take Paul literally on homosexuality….’. I sent this to one of your mods. I will paste it here for you as well.

‘I see you have deleted my comments. Nice to see that you and most on Patheos do not tolerate differing views. Your problem with ‘deviant’ is disingenuous. I have a problem using the word ‘gay’ when speaking of those who are same-sex deviants. However, I would never ban someone because they insisted on using the word ‘gay’ when speaking of same-sex deviants. That is their right to use whatever word they choose as long as it is not vulgar. Same-sex deviant is not vulgar; you just don’t like it. I don’t like how the word ‘gay’ has been hijacked, but hijack away, again, that is your right. What is sad is that you don’t respect my right to use a different word, and actually silence me when I do. Again, Hitler-ish. Differing views should not only be tolerated, but welcomed. The most INtolerant seem to be those who claim to be so tolerant. I would ask that you be more tolerant of opposing views as long as those views are not vulgar.

The definition of deviant – Differing from a norm or from the accepted standards of a society. One that differs from a norm, especially a person whose behavior and attitudes differ from accepted social standards. A person whose behavior, esp. sexual behavior, deviates from what is considered to be acceptable.

According to the definition, the term ‘same-sex deviant’ is accurate while the term ‘gay’, to describe those who are same-sex attracted, is not. Same-sex deviant simply means – those of the same-sex whose behavior deviates from what is considered to be the norm by the standards of society. It is not a derogatory term, and I don’t mean it as such. To ban and delete comments due to differing opinions is very unprofessional and indicative of immaturity. True maturity is possessing the ability to not only tolerate differing perspectives but to be capable of dialogue in the midst of those differing views without attempting to silence them. I ask that you reconsider your decision to delete comments that simply differ from your perspective.’

I would like to repeat what a commenter recently said to you: ‘You censor out mindless trolls on other posts too & totally eliminating them gives their arguments an aura of credibility. Let those of us who desire to (and are able to)Turn the Other Cheek & engage these folks. I know I’m not the only one who would very much like to do so.’ When this appears where comments have been deleted: ‘[complete assholery deleted.]‘ and ‘[rant deleted]‘, that certainly gives the argument of the deleted comment ‘an aura of credibility’ and also shows immaturity and very unprofessional behavior on your part.

I repeat – please reconsider your decision to delete comments that simply differ from your perspectives. If you are trying ‘to protect the people reading my blog–many of whom are in delicate or vulnerable emotional moments in their lives–from their hatefulness.’, then this disqus format is not what you need to be using. Until you find the format that suits your needs, please refrain from censorship on disqus.

ttpog

You stated on another blog that has no tolerance for differing opinions: Hitler put gays in concentration camps. Sure you want to bring up “Hitler-ish?”

While there certainly were some same-sex deviant victims of the Nazi regime, and a record of harsh public condemnation of same-sex deviancy by the Nazi Party, the true, complete story of same-sex deviancy in Nazi and pre-Nazi Germany does not in the least help the ‘gay’ cause. What Hitler did was to silence all opposing views to his own. Voicing differing perspectives meant a death sentence. This country is getting dangerously close to repeating those same mistakes, as allegro63 has proven.

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

I’m confused. You acknowledge that a hate-filled regime participated in the imprisonment and horrific murders of not only people of a particular culture, but people who disagreed with them politically, tried to help people escape the oppression, and yes, gay people, and know that it was a horrible thing.

YET, in principle it seems that you agree the mindset of the losers of the second world war, that just by who they are, the LGBT deserve our scorn, our hate, our shunning, our condemnation.

When it is decided that hate speech of this type is innappropiate, a speech that divides, demeans, and causes actual pain, is way past the scope of respect towards our neighbors, and has long past needed to cease, I am accused of acting like a horrible dictator. Ironic.

http://jw-thoughts.blogspot.com/ John

I think this is what happens when some people see a post that goes against the conventional thinking of specific arena on a discussion. It is also a skewed way to see the world but that is your choice as well.

So go be a happy hairless great ape. Fuck how you want. And for fuck sake, don’t fret about thy neighbor’s fucking. Jesus said so.

youtube.com/watch?v=XeTimRi1liU

http://jw-thoughts.blogspot.com/ John

I am wondering where all of this is coming from. The conversations on this topic always come from an emotional side and emotions are as the waves of the see. Here today gone tomorrow. In other words, who carries truth? Emotions? Or elsewhere? Also, when certain people don’t like how a conversation is flowing and it doesn’t agree with their knowledge then it gets labeled as somehow uneducated. Sounds like an egocentric complex to me. I want to be wrong but the fruits of some of what I see written bears witness of it.

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

There are people who’s main reason for visiting internet forums is to be ugly, to get people’s danders all up, to make themselves feel superior, more righteous, the great conquerer of the comment thread. They take getting banned as confromation that they are right, or chalk it up as a point system (how many places and how quickly each one takes to ban them) And lastly, most don’t really care about the people they are talking to…most certainly not the ones they choose to mention in a negative fashion.

Then there are people for whom a topic is emotional, it hits close to home, it matters to them. They will get a little emotional, and maybe a lot, but for them they do tend to care about the people they are talking to.

http://johnshore.com/ John Shore

Really? Because you need a book to tell you the difference between right and wrong?

Matt

While the discussion of “homosexuality” and how it is viewed may be nothing more to you than an intellectual exercise, to me the operative word that sums up the subject is pain. Yes, it is a feeling. Yes, it contains truth. It’s up to us to find out where that truth is, what it looks like, and the forms that it takes.

If I pretend for the sake of discussion that LGBT people somehow exaggerate their pain, or don’t want to change because they (somehow) enjoy their sinful nature–and even that is an enormous stretch–then I still want to err on the side of compassion. I still want to keep my heart soft and my eyes open. People know their own lives. Pain comes from somewhere. I want to have the courage to face that source, even it is myself.

That’s just not something I see from the vast majority of people who hold the idea that being LGBT is sinful. They are content with their “explanation” and stop seeing the people in front of them, because that idea doesn’t explain reality so much as maintains their personal comfort. It takes bravery to face themselves and the hurt they’re causing. But it’s so worth it. I hope you’ll keep searching, John.

Barbara Hoyt

So this woman spent 17 (or more) years of marriage with this man (who she claims is a good man and loves him), has 3 children with him and yet she wants to leave because he is not a woman? Really? What if he had a sex change? Could she be his wife then? It does not matter if she had and affair with a man or a woman, it’s still an affair. She lusted after someone else and broke her vow and commitment to her husband. I dont think her being gay is the issue.

Andy

Don’t be surprised if you wake up and this comment just says “[inanity deleted]” instead of all of this claptrap.

BarbaraR

Godwin’s Law of Nazi Analogies: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

Sircar’s Corollary: If the discussion touches on homosexuality… Nazis or Hitler are mentioned within three days. In an online discussion, whoever brings up Hitler is accepted to have lost the argument as well as all credibility.

http://www.fordswords.net/ Ford1968

ttpog’s comments disappeared because it’s not ok to spread vile (and outrageous) lies about holocaust victims. For those of you who are disappointed, I’m sure he’ll be back to complain about “censorship”.

http://johnshore.com/ John Shore

If he does, and you find his comment also unacceptable, feel free to blacklist him off the site. Thanks for helping to keep this a safe/sane place, Ford.

Lamont Cranston

Unless you are gay yourself you have no idea what pressure is put upon us, especially those of us who are Christian, to get married to someone we have no desire for. I don’t consider someone making vows under pressure from family and society in general to count as having given free and fair consent.

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

Join with me and like Matt’s statement, for the beautiful honesty that it contains, as well as the compassion.

BarbaraR

Perfect answer.

Barbara Hoyt

You are telling me she was forced to live with him for 17+ years and have 3 children with him? I find that hard to believe. Again, she admits she loves him, they are best friends and he is a good man. So she is not “attracted” to him? How superficial. People change over the years. They don’t always look as we desire them to they age. Cheating on your spouse because you want a more “desirable” body makes you a cheater and nothing more. You didn’t answer my question…If he got a sex change, would she be satisfied? After all it’s just the “exterior” of his body she hates right?

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

Have you ever had to live a lie, pretend that things were anything but what they seemed, not let anyone, because of the feared ramifications, knowing there was something very wrong about it all, but having absolutely nowhere to turn?

A marriage with that in place is doomed, Even if the wife, or say it was the husband never had an affair, but finally came clean about who they really were, the chances of the marriage lasting longer than the year it takes for the final decree is very slim. Only 7% of mixed orientation marriages survive, after one is outed.

True, infidelity is a usual marriage killer, but ask yourself this. If it had been the pastor who’d had an affair with a woman, how would people have reacted? How quickly would he have been forgiven by his parishioner and friends, how strongly would the wife had been urged to forgive him and work on saving the marriage, what are the chances that he would have had to give up his occupation for good? Yes the marriage may have failed anyway, but I bet my belly fat (and I’d love to lose this bet) that reaction to this woman’s affair, would not be as forgiving or accommodating.

We don’t condone infidelity, we know its wrong and hurtful. I just wish that people were more honest, and fair about what happens, and understand that there is always more to the story than just the affair. When people cheat, its often not about the sex, but something else.

BarbaraR

Your last line – “When people cheat, its often not about the sex, but something else” – sums it up. All we know about the situation is what her lover told us. But continuing to live a lie just for the sake of keeping a marriage together is pitiful.

Barbara Hoyt

This is not about whether the community would forgive a cheater. There are many churches that show no love or forgiveness and I am not saying that is right. Adultery is adultery and in any case it is wrong. You are saying that it’s not about the sex? Then what is it about? What is it this man cannot offer his wife that another woman can? If she had love, friendship, stability, affection, etc…all the things her male partner could give her then sexual “desire” is the only issue. All married couples have problems. You can’t live with someone for that many years and be happy 100% of the time. It’s just impossible. Divorce is rampant in this nation because people are allowed to check out for any reason they want, including exchanging your long devoted partner for a younger more “desirable” model. I don’t think that is acceptable. And just because “other people” are doing it doesn’t make it okay either. What kind of message is she sending her children? That it’s ok to leave you spouse just becauase you don’t feel happy and instead of working on the problems that are making you unhappy in the relationship, mom takes the easier route and just leaves to start over. I have to wonder how her husband feels being rejected and dumped. Again, it doesn’t matter whether she cheated with another man or another woman. Adultery is wrong and hurtful to all parties involved.

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

Yet millions of people do it for a variety of reasons. I know I did, and it wasn’t because I was gay, which I’m not. (living the lie, not cheating…thank goodness for editing for clarity!)

There is way too much pressure to conform to ridiculous ideals about what makes a healthy marriage, in our culture, especially in religious circles. What needs to happen is for some paradigm shifts to occur. That the roles of women, not be primarily tied to home and children, that the idea of allowing abuse for any reason, is utterly unacceptable, and that leaving such relationship be far easier than they are today, that human sexuality is more diverse than assumed, and that being gay is not something to be ashamed of or to fear, and that gay marriage is a healthy next step for our society and our churches.

Those shifts are occurring, albeit slowly, but hopefully they will help prevent such tragedies as this.

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

What was missing? The ability to be herself. Could her husband offer her that, would he have been willing? I don’t think the wife in this story is looking for a divorce, and her lover broke off the affair, which was the right thing to do. I do hope the wife can come up with an honest solution, and whatever happens it is peaceful an amicable. Its a big sorry mess all the way around, as such situations usually are. I feel bad for that family, because it is so tear inducing sad.

For the record, my reason for divorce was primarily #10 on that list, which also contributed to reasons #1, 4 and 5.

Barbara Hoyt

What abuse did this woman endure? Are you saying being a mother or homemaker is “abuse”? According to this story no abuse took place. The woman’s husband is a good man that provides for his family.

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

huh?

I have no idea what this woman’s home life is, and I never said that she was a victim of DA. I don’t know the husband, other than the very little that has been said about him. He could be fantastic, he could be a monster. We just don’t know, and that isn’t the issue, now is it?

What I said that parts of our society puts too much emphasis on a woman’s role to be primarily as a homemaker and mother. It should be her choice, not coerced or her value based solely on that. That is one of the things culture needs to change, is the patriarchal idea of women’s roles.

Barbara Hoyt

The ability to be herself? Which is what? A woman?

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

sigh…

BarbaraR

I don’t think there is a point in continuing this dialogue…. the OP is unable to discuss this rationally.

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

yeah…I should be finishing up the dreaded filing anyway.

Barbara Hoyt

I mentioned abuse because you did. You said “The idea of allowing abuse for any reason is unacceptable”. Well yes. I agree with that. But being a homemaker is not abuse and it IS a choice. Unless this was an arranged marriage then she chose to marry him, chose to have 3 babies and chose to stay for 17+ years. You said “parts of our society puts too much emphasis on a woman’s role to be primarily as a homemaker and mother”. Having children is a choice. If you choose to have children, you are a mother, always and that should be your primary duty. A child is another life that is counting on you to raise them and guide them. Kids are not pets nor are they trophies. They are our future and need to be raised in good homes. Whether you are a wife or single mom you are a basically still home maker. If you want a career; if you want to spend 9-10 hours away from your kids each day and no one is at home to actually raise them then perhaps motherhood is not for you. You should not be a mom just because of peer pressure or because everyone else is doing it. Motherhood is not a fad or a hobby, it’s a life changing event and requires most or all of your time. Should the mother do all of the child raising? No, of course not. Dads need to be involved too. But if you choose to marry a man who is willing to provide for the family so you can stay home with the kids then you will probably be the one doing most of the housework and diaper changes etc. If both partners choose to work then it will be BOTH their jobs to care for the kids and home. But knowing from experience, you will both have less time to get everything accomplished and generally something will have to be given less attention. All married couples struggle with those issues. If you want to have a happy successful marriage then you can’t just walk out because life gets tuff. If you both love each other and your kids then you should be willing to put in the effort since you both took vows to stay committed.

Barbara Hoyt

So you are not going to answer that? What is she not getting from her current relationship that a woman can give her? How is she not able to be herself?

Barbara Hoyt

I have actually been very reasonable. You just don’t seem to like my questions. You can’t tell me what this man cannot provide for his wife that another woman can, other than a lesbian sexual relationship. So then, it IS about sex and has nothing to do with love, friendship or stability because her man provided her with all of those things because she admitted that he did. Her affair was purely sexual as most affairs are. She doesn’t want a real loving and fulfilling relationship because she already had that. She just wants a fantasy. She got sick of being a mother and wife and wants out.

Matt

For a gay person, the gender of one’s partner matters very much. It’s the same as you having to marry a woman when you are heterosexual. You could do it; you could even grow to love the person, but it would not have the same distinct feeling of rightness. You would be pretending to be something that you are not (gay). It would always get in the way of truly knowing your spouse, and they would not truly know you. That is, as you can imagine, a huge barrier for a marriage.

This is not the same as a straight older man leaving his wife for a younger woman. It’s simply not. And speculating on this woman wanting “out” of her responsibilities is making entirely too many assumptions about her character when we know barely any details.

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

Thank you Matt;

Barbara Hoyt

#10 Abuse: Again, there was no evidence of abuse in this relationship. I would not expect any woman to stay with an abusive spouse. This was a loving relationship according to the story. #1 Lack of communication: every marriage has this problem. Mine especially did. I was a terrible communicator. It took a very long time for me to be able to express myself and since I have my husband and I have a much better relationship because of it. Men and women are not mind readers and if you get upset because you don’t tell them what you need from them then you can’t get mad and just quit the relationship. That’s childish. Now if you do communicate to your spouse and he or she shows no concern for your needs that is a different problem and it needs to be resolved. #4 If you can’t trust your spouse you won’t have a good relationship, period. But do you not trust your spouse because they haven’t earned the trust or are you letting past experiences control your feelings? Chances are, if you are not able to trust the man/woman you are in love with then you will probably always have trust issues in any relationship. Moving onto a new person won’t always resolve that. #5 Expectations: that goes back to communication. If your expectations are unreasonable then they are simply unreasonable. You must communicate and discuss your expectations to your spouse, lover, partner and the earlier on the better. If you don’t communicate them then how will your spouse even know what they are? Men and women usually have different expectations of each other and you have to meet each others needs. It shouldn’t be only one way. What it comes down to is love and devotion. If you love your spouse then you should be willing to do anything to be with them and make it work, even when things get hard.

Jim

I will repeat the questions I put on a previous blog.

If a married pastor is attracted to another woman, should she be expected to do nothing to disrupt his marriage. Similarly if a woman is attracted to a pastor’s wife, shouldn’t she be expected to do nothing to disrupt his marriage. If a pastor is attracted to another woman, should he be expected to do nothing to disrupt the marriage. So, shouldn’t a pastor’s wife be attracted to another woman, should she be expected to do nothing to disrupt the marriage.

I was married to a woman who abandoned me to live with a boyfriend of hers, a boyfriend whom she had been seeing since the start of our marriage. It hurt.

While sympathetic to the Gay rights movement and the push to recognize Gay marriage, beneath it all wrong is still wrong. Disrupting a marriage is wrong.

One thing which I say poisons the Gay rights movement is that a Gay person doing wrong such as this should be given a pass because of sexual orientation.

Lamont Cranston

May you suffer from that which you wish on others.

Lamont Cranston

What you have been is shrill and whiny. I feel sorry for people who have to be around you in the real world.

BarbaraR

Check your FB other message box.

Barbara Hoyt

Shrill and whiny? When? Give me an example…I have not shouted, used caps, profanity or “whined” in any way. I have stated facts and asked logical questions. Period.

Barbara Hoyt

Suffer what? Living with a man? Keeping my commitments and promises? Being faithful in my marriage? If you call that suffering then maybe you don’t deserve marriage. I am only stating that people should honor their marriages and commitments. Especially those who have children. When this woman runs off with another woman and then realizes she is not happy or she bored she will do it again and again. That’s why we have a divorce problem. If her man was abusive that would be a reason to leave but she is allowing her sexual desires to control her and damaging a good man and her 3 children in the process. You have to be pretty self absorbed to choose temporary pleasures and make the people who love you suffer because of your own selfish desires.

Barbara Hoyt

Some people do. That’s why we have laws in place to keep people from stealing and murdering and raping. Because to some people certain actions are not wrong and they do them anyway. If you don’t think adultery is wrong then it doesn’t mater what this woman did. It’s her body and she is free to have sex with whomever she pleases, married or not. Right? Who is to say she is wrong?

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

Not quite sure which message box you mean.

BarbaraR

Your Facebook messages. One is for friends; the other is for nonfriends. They’re next to each other.

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

I don’t see anything on my personal page, would it be on the UC page and possibly a video?

https://elizabeth-fullerton.squarespace.com/resume Elizabeth

Barbara’s made 16 comments total, most of them on this thread. Her Disqus activity is private… you know, because she’s so morally invested in this conversation.

Barbara Hoyt

Oh, my bad…I thought this being a discussion forum means you are allowed to “discuss” your thoughts about it. I didn’t realize that “Join the discussion” actually means, “Join the discussion only if you agree with everything we say”. Silly me….

https://elizabeth-fullerton.squarespace.com/resume Elizabeth

You start with, “What if he got a sex change,” on a progressive LGBT-affirming blog, you’re not looking for discussion. You’re looking for attention. Plus, you tried the patience of allegro, Matt, and Barbara R. Way out of your league. Naïve is putting it kindly.

BarbaraR

On the front page of FB, on the left column, under News Feed, is Messages. Click that. The page you go to is Inbox; in grey letters next to Inbox is “Other.” Click that. Not a video.

BarbaraR

Agreed. There is no “discussion” going on. We have seen this kind of tactic before here many, MANY times. Old news. It’s stir the shit.

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

Ok. Im dense, I just now found it. Never knew that existed. Thanks. I just read what you sent.

Dspencer

We have to choose weather we are going to be obiedent to Gods will or not. It’s not what we want it’s what he says if you are a true believer then you choose to be a follower if his will.

Barbara Hoyt

Its not attention seeking, it’s a valid question. One that you can’t seem to answer. This woman cheated on her husband and her supposed excuse is because she’s gay and now after 17+ years of commitment and 3 children no longer attracted to him. Although he is loving, supportive and her best friend but she would rather be with a woman. So this is not about love, it’s about lust and if she did this same thing with another man she would be judged but is getting a pass because it was a lesbian affair not a hetero one. Some people have suggested she have an open relationship with the woman and her husband. I don’t see how that any better or worse than proposing a sex change to make her happy. After all, this is about her happiness an no one else’s here.

https://elizabeth-fullerton.squarespace.com/resume Elizabeth

I, for one, think it’s completely possible to love two or more people different ways. I’m not bound by the covenant of marriage. The problem (which John addressed in the original post) is the adultery, a situation caused largely by the shaming fundamentalist culture in which the married lesbian lives. The result is a family with a mother who lives a double life and two unhappy women who made the hard, right decision: “Shun the drama, let love be love, and honor that love by refusing to steep it in lies and deception.”

We can’t possibly know how she found herself in that situation. It’s none of our — and by that, I mean your — business.

Andy

It must be nice to be able to reduce all the complex situations in life to a few simple words.

Andy

I agree. You don’t get carte blanche, for orientation or any other reason. But, in my opinion, neither should you live a lie, or force someone else to. Marriage is hard enough work already if it’s built on honesty; if it’s not, it’s basically a house of cards at best.

Andy

its hard 2 take u seriously when it seems like ur going out of ur way 2 make a mockerie of the english langwidge

Andy

It must be depressing to think of everything as a sin.

Jim

That is not the only issue.

The question is right or wrong. Based on my own experience(my first marriage ended because my ex had a boy friend-and she expected me to have marital obligations to her even though she had a boy friend), it is wrong to disrupt a marriage.

From what I can tell from the information on this affair, no one forced the pastor’s wife into the marriage in the first place. Once int the marriage, she was obligated to honor it, just like her husband was obligated to honor it. To get back to my situation, which does influence my views, my ex pressured me to accept a formal legal separation. After the separation, she was still insisting I had obligations to her. She expected me to honor the marriage even though she would not.

How about two women who enter into a committed relationship. Is each partner obligated to honor it?

Bisexuality is a recognized phenomenon. Two women are in a committed relationship. A man is attracted to one of the partners. That partner is in turn attracted to the man and carries on a clandestine affair with the man, behind her partner’s back. Is that right or wrong?

I think the pastor should forgive her. In another blog I said, I thought it would be an act of great love for the pastor to let his wife go so she can enter a relationship with her lover. That does not negate the wrong that happened in the situation. It was not that the pastor, in good faith, took her as his wife.

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

So deciding to love my neighbor as myself, and seeing everybody is my neighbor, which means I don’t look for what I think may be wrong about someone but as someone who is loved by God.

That to me a d to many others is followings God’s will. And it is a joy and an honor to do so

Barbara Hoyt

“I’m not bound by the covenant of marriage.” Why marry if you can’t commit to honor your vows? Whether you are gay or straight, if you marry someone you should only do so if you are willing to both do what it takes to honor it. If you don’t want that, just live together. Less messy and you can get out of the relationship without legal repercussions.

If the woman doesn’t want her business to be other people’s business then I guess the author here should have kept it private and not stuck the letters on a blog and allowed people to post opinion or commentary.

https://elizabeth-fullerton.squarespace.com/resume Elizabeth

The author, John Shore, posts many letters. They have universal resonance, obviously, since they’ve brought you into the conversation. That’s why we don’t parse particulars; we try to respond with comments that help not condemn the letter writers and those who identify with them. “Let he who is without sin” and all that.

By “I’m not bound by the covenant of marriage,” I mean I’m not married. I was in a monogamous relationship for 8 years, celibate for 3 years, and now I’m dating again. I expected you to at least be able to google Ezekiel.

Matt

For the record, your question about “what if he got a sex change” was considered rude because one doesn’t just “get” a “sex change.” The condition of being transgender is inborn, and it takes considerable work through some medical gatekeepers to change one’s physical sex.

If the husband (theoretically) had any desire to change his sex, we wouldn’t be talking about a husband anymore, but a woman. Lady. Wife. That’s a completely different dynamic. It goes to show how little you know about this topic, and so our patience runs thin quickly.

Barbara Hoyt

I understand people make mistakes in their marriage and all can be forgiven and restored if both parties are willing. I saw this story posted on a page wall and chose to read it. What got me about the whole thing is how some people seemed to think it was perfectly acceptable for the wife to leave the marriage just because she feels intimacy for her female friend. Some even suggest an open relationship. No we don’t know all the details but after he stating that she loves her husband, they are best friends and he’s a good man it sounds very much like she just got tempted and then caught up in an affair. It doesn’t matter whether it was with a male or female, it’s still an affair and adultery. Does she deserve to be forgiven? Yes. And I hope she chooses not to walk out on her devoted husband and 3 children over this but if she does I don’t think it’s acceptable just because the affair was with a woman. Nor do I see how Christianity “decimated” this marriage as the author has stated. It’s the same as if she left for another man.

Barbara Hoyt

I’m just trying to make a point. No I don’t think her fundamental Christian husband would opt to do that, but we don’t know. he may love her enough to do anything to hold onto his wife so there is always a “what if” scenario. My point is though, even if he did, it’s just superficial. It’s an outward change not an inward. So why after so many years, sharing so many loving memories with this man and having 3 children that I would assume she loves very much, she would opt out for a woman? What can her woman give her that her husband did not? If I don’t understand I am interested in hearing you explain it. I understand the troubles of marriage plenty. I have been married as long, if not longer than her. I know there are MANY challenges to stay together. There is always temptations. That’s just life. The grass is not always greener on the other side and chances are, if you are not happy in your current relationship, changing partners will not always fix the problem because you will bring the problem to the next. I do apologize if I come of rude. I am not trying to. i tend to be very direct. But if I have insulted you I am sorry.

Matt

Your apology is accepted. I do think that you are genuinely trying to understand.

But speaking as someone who is LGBT, I’ll just say that you may not be able to understand. That doesn’t make you bad. You’re coming from a heterosexual world where every person is able to fully experience and share themselves in their marriages if they’re willing to put in the work, and adultery is nearly always a straightforward case of someone breaking their vows for lust. So many LGBT people must hide who they are and who they love in the first place. It doesn’t change the sin of adultery, but it does introduce an element of sadness and tragedy that is unique to this situation.

This woman sinned. She did. I give her no free pass. John just focused on that extra tragic element in his writing because that’s a lot of what he writes about.

(And having one’s sex changed is not a superficial change. It comes from a deep, inborn desire and is often sought after for years. Human beings are not separate from our bodies. We are intimately intertwined with them.)

Barbara Hoyt

It is very tragic. I think divorce is tragic whenever children are involved. I know many people get married being unready. Many people also have children being unready too. Marriage and parenting are both very challenging life changing events that require much sacrifice and commitment. It’s devastating when people abandon either, but it happens. If love is love and this man is a good man who cares and loves her, and she loves him and loves his company I question how or why she cannot be with him. Why she would string him along in a fake marriage for so long? This is not the dark ages and it’s not a forced marriage. I really question what really happened here. I guess we won’t get all the answers.

As far as having a sex change, I see it as superficial. Its your exterior looks, not who you truly are. If you were born a man and you had surgery to alter that, you are still a man that looks like a woman. If you cannot be happy who you were born as, I don’t think surgery will change anything any more than things like money, power, fame, drugs…whatever you try to fill you life with. If you are born with dwarfism, or some other altercation that made you different and there was a surgery to change it, I don’t believe that will make truly you happy. You have to learn to love yourself as you are. We all need to accept and love each others differences because none of us are perfect and we are all the same in God’s eyes. He loves us all the same. We should love ourselves and be grateful for the life we have,

Andy

“As far as having a sex change, I see it as superficial. Its your exterior looks, not who you truly are.”

I assume you are not transgender. If you were, I think you would understand why people who do not identify as the gender they were assigned at birth are uncomfortable in their bodies.

“If you cannot be happy who you were born as, I don’t think surgery will change anything”

I would bet thousands of people who have had SRS would disagree with you.

“You have to learn to love yourself as you are.”

Easy to say when you don’t have the problem. I’m sure some people could describe it better than I, so I won’t try.

“We should love ourselves and be grateful for the life we have”

I agree. But does that mean we shouldn’t ever do anything to make ourselves more comfortable if something doesn’t feel right about us?

I don’t necessarily disagree with you. Marriage covenants and the covenant implicit in parenthood must be taken seriously- they have meaning and create stability.

I’m not weighing in on whether or not it may be appropriate for this couple to divorce; but I hope we can agree that there needs to be some truth telling. This woman probably has never shared the truth of her sexuality with her husband. That’s a huge emotional burden.

You ask why she would continue in a fake marriage for so long. First, I don’t think I’d call it fake, but I would say that this couple have not been their authentic selves.

Second, and germane to the original post, we have to wonder what role the traditional sexual ethic – with all of the attendant judgement and condemnation of people who are queer – plays in this tragedy. This is by no means the first documented mixed-orientation marriage, nor is it the first with tragic consequences.

My best to you David

http://www.fordswords.net/ Ford1968

Barbara, I also meant to mention that you have some significant misunderstanding about transgender people. I did too, until I had the great good fortune to get into relationship with people who are transgender. I hope you will have a similar blessing so you can understand. My best again David

Matt

I will only make one more reply here, as this is a rough week for me.

I am transgender. My long-term partner is also transgender. I belong to a support group for transgender people, as well as one for transgender teenagers, though I am an adult. I help to comfort people of all ages just like me through what is a very difficult process, who may be going through things like divorce, homelessness, and family rejection at the same time. I cared for my partner through what you call a “sex change,” which we in the community call Sex Reassignment Surgery, and more broadly a gender transition. I am going through a gender transition myself, from female to male.

So, in short, I would hope I know more about this subject than you do. This is not cosmetic, or vanity, or being unhappy with yourself. This is a state of being deeply rooted in a person’s heart, mind, and spirit. It’s not all sadness and tragedy and pain. Some of it is deeply joyful. We just got to celebrate with one of our sisters whose grandparents called her by her name for the first time.

We do learn to love ourselves as we are. For us, the process involves learning that our desire to undergo treatment and be men and women is healthy for us, and that although we may look different from what society’s standards may be, we are beautiful and valuable regardless. We learn to stop resisting the strong urges to transition in order to please others. Young transgender people know themselves deeply, and they develop a maturity and wisdom rarely seen. They have to. Our elders are helpful and kind to the youngsters who may not have families. They know what it’s like to hide.

What you call “superficial” is an entire community, a world, and a universe unto itself. Best to you, Barbara.

Jill

Is it about seeing someone else’s point of view and life experience through *your* eyes, or is it about stepping outside your perspective and stepping into someone else’s shoes to see who they are?

I for one would never had the privilege to understand how deep gender identity goes until I opened my eyes to those that live the cultural dichotomy that they had no say about or control over. There’s a world of humanity beyond our prescribed paths that is our ‘neighbor’ for the purpose of ‘love thy’. How do I love someone if I don’t know them, or understand their POV?

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

If I had divorced sooner, would my children had faced the trauma they did because I felt staying was my only option, and I was too terrified to leave? I wish I’d been braver, for their sakes. So don’t be so quick to judge negatively about divorce or the people who do so. Its not your call anyway.

And here’s the thing. You say God loves us all the same, and that we should be grateful for our lives, then mean it.

Accept that people do need to make changes, sometimes significant ones to be at peace and to truly find gratitude in what life they have been given.

Accept that people are often not satisfied with their lot, and wish that they could be housed in a different shell, or in a different mindset.

Accept that God made us all beautiful but in a way we don’t see with our very human, and impeded eyes. God loves the transgender, the lesbian, the homeless, the drug addict, the depressed, the alchoholic, the MS sufferer, the Ukranian protestor, the atheist, the Sikh, the Chinese factory worker, the Syrian freedom fighter, the Thai prostitute, The Mormon, the Catholic, the woman faced with choosing between leaving things as is and her sanity. God loves each and everyone, unabashed, unfettered, unimpeded.

Our job is to at least try to love on that scale, which few master, more get a fair handle on the hows and whys of it, and all should strive to accomplish.

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

That is the key, I think Jill. If we are to truly love someone as a neighbor, then it helps for us to try to understand what its like to live in their skin. We know well what its’ like to be us, but we don’t really know what its like to be anyone else, yet its worth the attempt to try. We begin to get there by interaction, conversations, listening, befriending.

Andy

Well said. I was hoping you would respond to this.

Guy Norred

I see no reason to believe that the pastor did not marry her in good faith, and your point that he has been wronged is not at all irrelevant. I think in the end, John is trying to point out here that, while the wife may have some culpability in the wrong, it is the overarching wrong of the traditional teachings on homosexuality that lead to this situation. From what we see here, the wife would never have married him in the first place if she had not been convinced that she had to overcome her homosexuality. The real point being that the traditional teaching brings pain and suffering to all those it touches which is not the good fruit we should expect from a good teaching.

Jim

“The real point being that the traditional teaching brings pain and suffering to all those it touches which is not the good fruit we should expect from a good teaching.”

You are correct in that.

What i disagree with is the statement the Wife MAY have had some culpability. There is no MAY about it. She was culpable. A question which comes up is why she married him. Maybe she did think she had to overcome her sexuality. IF, and I say again, IF she married him hoping he could cure her sexuality, she was unfair in marrying him.

Do I advocate draconian punishment for the lesbian lovers? No I do not. One thing I believe is that God can bring good out of any bad situation. If these two women truly love each other, that is good and should not be prevented from happening. If I had the opportunity to counsel the pastor, I would advise him to let his wife go and to not hate her, not only because of their children but because God advocates love, not hate. While I hope the wife finds happiness, I also hope the pastor finds happiness.

Which means, not only should the pastor let his wife go. She should let him go. Because of my experience with my ex, I am cynical about this, and I regret this. Some women who leave their husbands, for whatever reason, still believe their husbands still have obligations towards them. Is this woman willing to let her husband go completely?

Guy Norred

Sorry, I didn’t mean to let the wife off the hook. I completely agree she was being unfair to him when she married him under what really were false pretenses. Two wrongs do not make a right and in this situation, the number of wrongs is much greater than that–and in what we know, none of them are the husband’s.

Guy Norred

Oh, and I meant to add in regard to your cynicism, we all have our baggage and understanding it is there is half the battle to counteracting it.

Jim

I agree with you that there were more than two wrongs. That is why I would tell the pastor to let his wife go and not hate her. It won’t help anything to bring about more wrongs.

Jim

You are not bound by the Covenant of Marriage? Pardon my cynicism but, as I have posted before, my first marriage ended because my ex left me to live with a boyfriend, a boy friend with whom she had been seeing since right from the start of our marriage. When we split she did not want to be bound by the vows we had taken. She expected me to remain bound. When we were splitting, she was telling me I should not only support her but also her kid for her, her son from her previous marriage(who happened to be 18 at the time.

We agreed to a separating agreement, one provision of which was that we agreed to behave towards each other as if we were not married to each other, another was that neither of us would try to exert any marital control over the other.

Her relationship with her boyfriend went sour(not the first time I subsequently learned). So she called me to say she wanted to reconcile. She did not ask me to take her back. She said that I had to take her back because she wanted to reconcile. One thing she did was ask me if I were seeing anyone else. She, who precipitated the split via her infidelity, said to me that even if we were legally separated, we were still married and I would be cheating on her if I were seeing another.

So again pardon me for my cynicism, I think that a lot of people who say I am not bound by the marriage covenant, both men and women, think that means, I am not bound but you, my partner, are.

https://elizabeth-fullerton.squarespace.com/resume Elizabeth

Hi! Once again, all I was saying is I am not and have never married. I average a boyfriend a decade. I was faithful to them and they to me. When I marry, I have every intention of keeping the whole “for better or worse” part. The cynicism is … all you.

Jim

For what it is worth I have remarried and have been remarried for 28 years. I applaud you for remaining faithful. I was unfortunate enough to have met and married a woman who had no intention of remaining faithful, who also had no intention of letting me get away from her(when she heard I was dating someone else post divorce, she called me up, when I was stationed in Germany no less, to tell me I should give up my new love because she wanted me). There is a reason for my cynicism about men or women who say they do not want to be bound by marriage. Not a few of them mean, I do not want to be bound but I expect my partner to be bound.

What i dislike about this situation is the attitude that the wronged husband was somehow a villain. He was not.

Christine McQueen

One thing I learned from my mother – do NOTHING that could result in the breaking up of another’s marriage. If the marriage is in the process of dissolving, then you stay out of the way until it has happened. The author of the letter is right to leave and have no further contact unless/until the other woman officially leaves her husband.

Michael Edwards

I’m disappointed at the people who don’t seem to “get” this situation. Rather than figure out who was “wrong” in this situation, back up a bit and ask, *Why* did the lesbian woman marry the pastor? Answer: Because she was wrongly taught to hate herself as one whose orientation was an abomination. I should know, I did the same thing in reverse, and it nearly destroyed me. Thank God my ex-wife is now remarried to a fine man. Yes my kids are wonderful — God brings good out of bad choices — but I had no business marrying a woman, and it was the teaching of the Church that drove me to that blunder.

mindy

Jim, your situation sounds most unpleasant, and painful, and all that. But try not to assume everyone is exactly like your ex. It’s not healthy.

mindy

Who said the wronged husband was somehow a villain? I don’t see that in the post at all – not even from the women who have been so hurt through all of this. He is as much a victim of hypocrisy of the Christianity that taught his wife to hate herself as anyone else. He’s not the bad guy.

mindy

Barbara, I have a best friend, a woman, whom I have known for over 20 years and who has been there for me at every turn, and I for her. I love her with all my heart. We are both straight, but I feel closer to just her than just about anyone on this earth, save my daughters. I can’t imagine doing anything to hurt our friendship. I was the first person in the hospital (after her husband) to see her sons when they were born. She was the first person I ran to when I received the referral photo of my daughter – all children who are now grown. She saw me through my divorce, and on and on. I wouldn’t trade a single memory. But if I fell in love with a man, truly in love, and in order to build a life with him, I had to leave my city and thus my friend, it would hurt both of us like hell. And yet, my relationship with her is NOT the same as the intimate bonds built from real romantic love, and it would be something I’d seriously consider. My guess is that she will not leave him, at least not until their children are grown, and even then it will take a lot. She has a lifetime of faking it to undo. And that is tragic. Bottom line is that the whole marriage should never have happened in the first place – she should have been able to be her real self all along. But now she has children, and of course I’m sure she doesn’t regret that – except that she can never be her real self with them. That’s just incredibly sad.

Jim

In the original post, only minimal concern was expressed for the husband. Was that appropriate? The husband is not just chopped liver.

Jim

What has been impressed on me since turning Presbyterian is the difference between justice and mercy. Justice is what you deserve. Mercy is what you do not deserve. I believe the Almighty wants us to be merciful. You have in Matthew the parable of the unmerciful servant: Matthew 18:21-35. I have advocated in this discussion that the pastor be merciful rather than just, that it would be a great act of love if he let his wife go to be happy with her lover.

My question is, would any woman be merciful to the pastor if the pastor had carried on a clandestine affair with another woman. A lot of women would advocate not mercy for the pastor but draconian justice.

Guy Norred

I absolutely agree God is merciful and we should be merciful, and given your hypothetical situation, mercy is called for in some way (though what that might be, I think depends on further information on the situation). The thing is, I think you are being caught up in a false equivalency. In marrying a woman, from what we know, the husband did not make the compromise to his inherent nature that the wife did in marrying a man. To be fair, understanding the wife is inherently missing something in her marriage that should be there, whether he knows why or not, it follows that even if only because of his wife’s (even hidden) unhappiness, the marriage from his standpoint is probably also missing the true intimacy that I think most of us understand as the ideal.

Jim

Let me give you another situation, one which could have become real. I once knew a woman who wanted to pressure me into marriage. I was not an impossibly attractive hunk. I was single and she wanted to be married(on one of our first dates, a dinner sponsored by the organization for which w worked, she wore a ring on 3rd finger left hand which looked like an engagement ring). Suppose I had succumbed to the pressure and married her. Then years later I have a clandestine affair because I was not happy about being maneuvered into marrying my wife? Would I have been doing wrong? Absolutely. That there would have been an explanation for my wrongdoing would not have nullified it.

I say again, what I am advocating in this situation is mercy. In my first marriage, my ex had said at the outset, I am not really happy in this marriage and we should split, I would not have ended up so hurt. Would it have been appropriate for the pastor’s wife to have negotiated an amicable split before any affair had taken place?

mindy

Jim, you are projecting so intensely you don’t see it. The letter writer broke off the love affair of her life specifically to avoid breaking up a family and hurting a husband who has done nothing wrong. Yes, having an affair was wrong, regardless of orientation. I don’t believe anyone here is disputing that. But this is an affair that would never needed to happen had the wife been able to be honest about who she was.

Jim

“mindy

Jim, you are projecting so intensely you don’t see it. The letter writer broke off the love affair of her life specifically to avoid breaking up a family and hurting a husband who has done nothing wrong. Yes, having an affair was wrong, regardless of orientation. I don’t believe anyone here is disputing that. But this is an affair that would never needed to happen had the wife been able to be honest about who she was.”

Yes it could have. One way she could have been honest with who she was would have been not to have married a man in the first place. Jim Nabors was honest enough with himself not to have attempted marriage with a woman. So was George Takei.

What you call my projection is my advocacy for understanding how the husband is going to feel when he learns his wife had had an affair with another woman. I really question that a woman can understand how a cuckolded husband can feel.

Jim

I apologize for not immediately seeing this. That is why I posted an entirely new comment. This was part of the comment.

Yes it could have. One way she could have been honest with who she was would have been not to have married a man in the first place. Jim Nabors was honest enough with himself not to have attempted marriage with a woman. So was George Takei.

What you call my projection is my advocacy for understanding how the husband is going to feel when he learns his wife had had an adulterous affair with another woman. I really question that a woman can really understand how a cuckolded husband can feel. Another cuckolded husband can.

Jim

I also point out that Ellen deGeneres never tried to marry a man.

Jim

I would say you are admitting that the disruption in the marriage was the result of the activity of the wife.

Suppose, because of the disruption of the marriage, the pastor had a clandestine extra marital affair with another woman. If said hypothetical affair had come to light, would the wife show the pastor the same kind of compassion she wanted to be shown. Or would she use the said hypothetical extramarital affair as an excuse to divorce the pastor so she could live with her lover? It is something to think about.

It has become customary for LGBT activists to say they are advocating for marriage equality. There is no adultery equality. Is said hypothetical affair, the wife could sue the pastor for divorce on the ground of adultery. He could not sue his wife for adultery on the same ground because the law does not recognize the same sex extramarital relationship as adultery. Adultery takes place between a man and a woman.

How about a bit of LGBT advocacy for adultery equality.

mindy

OMG, Jim, come ON. Try not to sound intentionally obtuse. Your comment actually proves the point made by this whole scenario.

Aside from the obvious fact that Ellen DeGeneres does not, in fact, serve as a stand-in for all lesbians, she grew up in a supportive family. She came out to her family years ago, and while I’m sure there was an adjustment period, her mother has long been one of her staunchest supporters. She was NOT raised to hate herself and believe that her true nature was an abomination to God. This wife was. She married a man because she was probably praying, as so many LGBT do, for God to make her straight. She believed she had an affliction from which she could be healed by being “righteous enough.” She was trying to “get right with God.” She sincerely believed she would be “healed.” I don’t know this woman, but based on the fact that she doesn’t want to hurt him, I can guarantee you that there was no malice in marrying him. She thought he would save her from herself – that by marrying him, she was CHOOSING to be straight, because that is what God wanted. And the whole point of all of this is that had she been taught to accept herself, whomever she was, from the beginning, no one would have been hurt in this way now. Every story has as least two sides, and I’ve seen no one blaming the husband. Yes, adultery is bad. I don’t think anyone disagrees with that. But this is not JUST adulteryy, and that is the bigger point.

I find your intense bitterness here rather disturbing – I’d assumed that you were rather freshly wounded, that your heart just hadn’t had time to heal. Now I see your comment about having been remarried for 28 years?! Wow. Let it go, dude.

mindy

And again, these are two well-known LGBT people. So . . . what? We are talking about people who grew up in fundamental Christianity and thus are unable to accept their own sexuality, believing that it can be changed if they are just faithful enough. So the fact that those two men didn’t marry women has . . . . zero, actually, to do with this conversation.

Guy Norred

I am going to try to make this as clear as possible. I think infidelity is wrong–period. It is a breaking of one’s word and a breach of trust. Extenuating circumstances of any sort do not make it right even when they might make it somehow understandable. The particular case at this time is tragic on many levels. Many people are already hurt by the circumstances around it and it is entirely likely that this hurt will continue and spread whether or not the infidelity comes to light in any forum other than this. I trust in God’s mercy and ability to see into and heal the hearts affected.

As to any other hypothetical circumstance, I honestly don’t have the time or the energy to care right now. I don’t mean to be callous or uncaring, but real people and situations are painful enough without worrying about things that haven’t and may not happen.

Peace

Jim

I think what you refer to as my intense bitterness is actually your resentment that I advocate for the pastor who, in spite of your advocacy, is a cuckolded husband. You may not be condemning the pastor but you show no understanding.As a cuckolded husband I can. I would have had nothing to advocate for if posters on this discussion had shown appropriate compassion for the pastor.

I will refer you to Guy Norred’s comment below and my reply to it. The disruption in the marriage was due mainly to the wife. Suppose because of the disruption the pastor got involved in a clandestine affair with another woman. Would you be advocatig compassion for the pastor? Would the wife show the pastor the same compassion she expects from others. Or, would she use said hypothetical affair as an excuse to divorce her husband so she could be with her lover. You may not like it but those are things to think about.

What I advocate for is not punishment for the wife but regarding the pastor as more than unavoidable collateral damage.

BKLounge

I struggle that none of the advice or discussion seems to really discuss the sanctity of marriage…. about the vow to honor each other until death do us part. I suppose it may be addressed in the promised later letter of advice to the wife, but there already seems to be the assumption that the original woman should “wait” for the wife of the pastor and, therefore, kind of presupposed divorce. Whether or not the original union should have happened, it did and I feel like the conversations don’t even consider the possibility that the right thing to do at least MIGHT be for the pastor and his wife to work through this and honor their original vows. I suppose it could be said the pastor has a “right” to divorce his wife sue to the infidelity, but I guess I’m a little old fashioned and really believe that God does not desire us to destroy what has been joined together in marriage for any reason. I understand that the wife may no longer be sexually attracted to her husband, or perhaps never was, but I don’t see that as an excuse. If I ever stop being sexually attracted to my wife, I still have a vow toward her that I think God wants us to honor.

On a similar level, I feel like the children would object to the characterization that their parents lives were “decimated by anti-gay ‘Christianity.’” The wife calls her husband her “best friend” after 20ish years of marriage and three children. I think the characterization of decimation is more than a little harsh, since whatever the wife was feeling 20 years ago when she wed the pastor led to this union. Has it really been all lies and deceit? It seems hard to draw that conclusion when the wife says her husband is her best friend and by all accounts the husband is a good man. Did it lead to the suppression of some desires and maybe the somewhat artificial flaming of others? Possibly… but then I would say that this happens even in my own marriage and I seriously doubt I’m the only one. I think most people struggle with lust… is it fundamentally different if it is directed toward someone of the same sex? I don’t know, maybe it is, but I find that difficult to accept.

And I write this not judgmentally, so before someone flames me and labels me as a fundamentalist, please understand that you do not know me fully and that you may not understand how these comments fit into my overall worldview. I will say that I am a Christian and I believe the Bible to be true, though not necessarily literal truth in all places.

mariam

my name is Jason i was in the us army and went to Afghanistan leaving my wife and two kids Was away from home for 2 years when i returned my wife told me she was no longer interested in the marriage that if she could survive for 2 years without me the marriage is meaningless.leaving home for 2 years was not easy but not having a family when i came back was more difficult i pleaded continuously with her for 2 years even left the army just to convince her but all my attempt to get her back failed. This faithful day was about to sign a friend guest book when i saw a post about a spell caster at first i laughed but took the email address and phone number after 2days something inside of me just asked me to contact him so i did he asked for her full name and her picture which i sent he told me she was going to call me after 48 hrs to my surprise she called my even before the 48 hrs elapsed and said he was wrong to have left me and said she wanted me back .just using this testimony to encourage other men and even women to contact this great spell caster for good luck spell,marital and relationship problems,wining lottery etc this is his direct contact . templeoflove1@yahoo.com

mindy

Wow. I am not even sure how to respond to you, Jim. You are so missing the ENTIRE point of this conversation that I find it impossible to continue a conversation with you. The husband is one of the THREE VICTIMS described in both John’s response and the comments. How Guy’s response below negates that is beyond me. If this conversation was simply about how adultery hurts people, then yes, the focus would be on the husband, who, by all accounts, has not done anything to deserve being hurt by a cheating spouse. BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT THIS CONVERSATION IS ABOUT!!!!!! The conversation, Jim, is about how living a lie – and feeling forced to do so because of the teachings of a particular sect of Christianity – has caused a presumably decent person to fail, a “good” wife to cheat, and a family to be broken. You can wail all you want about how it’s the wife’s fault and she is evil and the husband a victim, but the entire point is that it isn’t that simple! You’re both right and simultaneously insisting on missing the point.

lrfcowper

I think you’re missing a couple of fundamental issues here.

One, marriages in Bible times were based on entirely different principles than they are today. Today, a marriage is usually freely entered into mostly based on love, trust, intimacy, and companionship. In Bible times, marriage was entered into mostly based on economic advancement and familial duty. Today, the husband and wife are, theoretically, equals. In Bible times, the genesis, structure, and continuation of the marriage was entirely in the hands of the husband. Adultery wasn’t just an emotional betrayal, it was a property crime and an assault against the heritage of the husband’s family line. The OT Law and Jesus’ answer to the question of divorce isn’t based on emotional impact, but the question of social justice for the woman who had no say on entering into the marriage or getting a divorce.

I’m not saying there aren’t principles in the scriptures on marriage and divorce, but we can’t just take them out of their social context and apply them willy-nilly to today’s marriages.

The principle of the Bible’s say on divorce is that a man who has essentially contracted to provide for a woman who was not socially able to live independently in exchange for her providing sexual gratification, household duties, and heirs cannot simply end that contract for whatever reason he sees fit when he has rendered her less able to find another provider and is thus consigning her to a life of poverty, deprivation, social stigma, and, most likely, prostitution. The one exception was if she herself had breached that contract and endangered his health (think STIs) and secure family line.

Today, marriages are not arranged, the woman has a choice, and the purpose of the marriage is entirely different. I would argue that the purpose of today’s marriages is primarily intimacy and companionship.

The pastor and his wife’s marriage has enjoyed companionship, certainly. But both of them have not truly enjoyed the deep intimacy that should have been present in their marriage. I’m not talking sexual intimacy alone, but emotional intimacy. You’re assuming that the husband wants to continue in a marriage that doesn’t contain emotional intimacy, that the only person in an ill-fitting mixed-orientation marriage that would want out of it to achieve true intimacy is the person whose orientation does not fit, but he has been robbed of intimacy just as much as she has.

Many straight partners of gay people who entered into a straight marriage in the hope of fixing their orientation look back at the drama of their partners’ coming out and their eventual decision to divorce as a blessing, because it allowed them to go on and find a straight spouse who could love them fully and be truly and completely intimate with them in a way they never had with their gay spouse. Not to say that divorce is ever easy, that discovering your partner has never loved you or been attracted to you in the way you have been to them is a fun time, but it can be a gateway to a more joyful and more intimate life.

Does that mean divorce is always the right answer to a mixed-orientation marriage? Probably not. But I don’t think the only way of honoring your commitment to each other is to stay together. Sometimes loving, cherishing, and honoring them may involve deciding you both need to move on.

Jim

Maybe you can’t reply to me but I will reply to you

“about how adultery hurts people……THAT IS NOT WHAT THIS CONVERSATION IS ABOUT!!!!!!”

I am saying that how adultery hurts people is something this conversation SHOULD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! be about.

One thing you seem to choose to be ignorant about is how a cuckolded husband reacts. If you are a faithful husband who loves and cares for your wife, one way you react is to contemplate self destruction. Some cuckolded husbands do self destruct. I might have had I not received support. Cuckolding a loving supportive, faithful husband is wrong, no matter how you rationalize it.

That said, I DO NOT advocate draconian punishment for the wife. I advocate the husband forgive her, let her go, and allow her to be happy. Why? Do the words, let the one who is without sin ring a bell with you. Are you familiar with the parable of the unmerciful servant. Are you familiar with this part of the Prayer of Saint Francis of Assissi: It is in pardoning that we are pardoned.

Whether or not you like it, I do not believe this woman was irrevocably locked into marrying a straight man. Your take on Ellen DeGeneres is inaccurate. There is a biography of Ms. Degeneres on Wikipedia(and yes, go ahead and say anyone can post on Wikipedia-the sources for the information are there). According to that biography, Ellen DeGeneres was born in 1958 and did not come out until 1997, the 4th season of her show Ellen. Before she came out, in her films and her series, she tried to portray herself as straight. Her mother was shocked when Ms. Degeneres came out and then responded supportively. One thing Ms. DeGeneres did not do was marry a straight man under the pretext she herself was straight.

If you say you don’t know how to answer,then why don’t you stop trying.

Jim

What Guy Norred said:

“In marrying a woman, from what we know, the husband did not make the compromise to his inherent nature that the wife did in marrying a man. To be fair, understanding the wife is inherently missing something in her marriage that should be there, whether he knows why or not, it follows that even if only because of his wife’s (even hidden) unhappiness, the marriage from his standpoint is probably also missing the true intimacy that I think most of us understand as the ideal.”

Whether you like it or not, Guy Norred acknowledges it was the WIFE who made a compromise, not the pastor. If the wife had not made that compromise, had not married the pastor, would there have been a problem.

What Guy Norred really says is that it was the pastor who had the responsibility of sorting out the situation before it became a problem. That is nothing but victim blaming. It was the wife who had the issues and it was HER responsibility to bring them up before they became a problem.

Patrially because this will irritate you, I will again refer to my situation. My ex had a girlfriend who would call me and try to lay a guilt trip on me because I did not want to reconcile. She said to me that my ex had problems to which I had not been attentive. I said my ex never indicated to me that she had problems of such a serious nature. The girlfriend then said that my ex did not mention them because she did not want to burden me with them. I asked the girlfriend, was it fair for my ex to conceal her problems from me then suddenly decide my inattention to her problems was an excuse to leave me. The girlfriend did not have an answer.

Then, months after my divorce was final, my ex called me up in Germany(I was stationed there) because she had found out I had met someone new. My ex told me that I should break up with this woman because she wanted to reconcile with me. I declined, pointing out all the unloving behavior she had subjected me to prior to leaving me. Her excuse was that she had been depressed and deluded and did not know what she was doing, that I should have realized that and should have fought for her.

That is similar to what Guy Norred is trying to say about the pastor, that the pastor should have realized that something was wrong and dealt with it.

I say again, emphatically, that is victim blaming.

I also say again, I do not advocate draconian measures against the erring wife. I sincerely hope that the pastor and his wife resolve this in a manner which would help both of them.

Jim

I might also say that your attitude implies you do not think it is significant if a husband is hurt by his wife’s infidelity.

If you don’t know how to answer, then don’t.

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

I think calming down and not trying to put yourself in the place of the man in the story would be a good idea.

For the record, the story IS about adultery, and adultery is usually a symptom of something else going on that is wrong with the relationship.

What this couple decided is frankly no one’s business, We don’t know his side at all. We don’t know if he’s a model husband or a total turd. We don’t have the whole picture at all. We don’t even know if he’s been faithful to her or not. We have zero information from his point of view.

Regardless of what you think of Ms. Degeneres, her choices, her life, is hers, Those that support and love her, do so, because of all that who and what she is, not for who she has sex with. I find her positive attitude throughout her initial coming out courageous and have always been positive, encouraging and an inspiration to many gay and straight.

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

Your experience is your’s, no one elses. What happened to you is sad, but you rebuilt your life and moved on. So why project your past into someone else’s present? There is much more to this story than you know about, nor anyone else’s.

Deep breaths,

mindy

Jim, I never said or implied any such thing. I am focused on what LGBT bigotry has done to Christianity in general and Christians, specifically. NEVER did I say his hurt was insignificant; he is one of the victims here. But the bottom line is that he may never actually *be* hurt. If no one know about this affair beyond the two women involved, that may remain the case for the rest of their lives. This wife, for better or worse, may choose to continue living a charade, pretending to be straight, in order not to hurt her best friend and father of her children. She may live a lie until she dies, to avoid hurting this man who has done nothing wrong. You can say that, in effect, hurts him, because he’s been cheated upon, but if he never knows it and she stays faithful from now on and bears the lie to keep from causing him pain, well, I would say that he isn’t hurt. I’m not advocating that. But that may well be the outcome.

Jim

When you said that how a spouse is hurt by infidelity is not part of the discussion, de facto you dismissed that hurt as inconsequential.

Jim

I have been in a place where that pastor might very well be. Whatever is decided, it is not appropriate to dismiss the pain he may very well feel as inconsequential, which Mindy de facto has done.

What evidence do you have that he has been unfaithful. The lover’s letters suggest he has not been. This again reminds me of something which happened in my situation. This girlfriend of my ex’s called me once to lay another guilt trip on me. I asked her what she would have done if her husband had left her for another woman. Very fiercely she replied she would have taken him for all he had. Then she said to me, I had no right to be upset with my then wife’s infidelity because I would have been unfaithful to her if I had had the chance. I did have chances and I did not cheat.

To imply without proof that the pastor was unfaithful is, again, victim blaming.

I think highly of Ellen DeGeneres. But it is a fact that she did not come out until nearly the end of her 4th decade, and that before she came out she depicted herself as straight. What I opined is that while closeted she did not try to conduct a relationship with a straight man, which shows integrity. Neither, to my knowledge, did she try to conduct a relationship with some man’s wife.

Jim

It seems that neither you nor many other commentators on this forum want to hear about what the pastor’s story might be. I feel for him in a way none of you can.

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

If he wants to add his side to this, then I am sure that John would consider adding it, as it would add another element.

But we don’t have it. We have what we got, and are left only with wild speculation on the rest. I can understand your sympathising with the husband. If he knows what has happened, he and his wife have some things to work out, and it won’t be difficult. We all feel for all the people in this, as its tough, its tragic, and it just may get worse, before it gets better.

One more thing, I’ve been betrayed by a spouse myself, as have others here. Just don’t think you are the only one who understands what its like.

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

If a spouse is unaware of an infidelity, never has a clue, the other spouse decides that to save him or her pain, to take the secret to his or her grave, and chooses to either give another reason to opt out of the marriage that would be less painful, or to stay and try to work things out…how is the unaware spouse supposed to be hurt?

The one that cheated made a mistake, and decided to make things right, in a manner that would cause the least amount of pain.

Again, we are only playing “guess the scenario” because we do not know all the particulars, nor is it really any of our business.

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

Geez. I keep saying, WE…DON”T KNOW. How hard is that to understand? NO ONE is blaming the pastor. We don’t know his take on any of this, We don’t know how he feels, if he knows what has happened, what the man is like. We also know little about the wife, or the former lover, other than the very small amount of information they have shared. Its like we have two and a half pieces of a 1000 piece puzzle,

We also do not know about Ms. Degeneres’s private lives and loves, because she….kept them private. Because…its none of our business.

Jim

I am fully aware I am not the only one. I have a cousin whose first marriage broke up because his wife was cheating on him. Where I did my General Surgery training we had a resident whose marriage was broken up by his cheating wife.

I also knew a nurse from the hospital where I did my Thoracic Surgery training whose marriage ended because of her cheating husband.

Did anyone blame you for the breakdown of your marriage. I was blamed for the breakdown of my first marriage. So was my cousin blamed for the breakdown of his first marriage?

So far as speculation, no one should speculate on whether or not the pastor was unfaithful, at least now. What we have includes no evidence that the pastor was unfaithful.

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

No one is speculating anything on the pastor…We don’t know diddly squat about the man, other than he is married and is a pastor. I’m getting tired of repeating that.

Jim

It is not speculation that he did nothing to disrupt his marriage. It is not speculation that he is facing serious psychological trauma over this. Go ahead and get tired. It leads me to question your concept of compassion.

Reasons number 3, 5, and 6 are, in many cases I believe, result from infidelity. In my case they resulted from the infidelity of my ex.

Jim

For what it is worth, I agree with you.

Jim

“Many straight partners of gay people who entered into a straight marriage in the hope of fixing their orientation look back at the drama of their partners’ coming out and their eventual decision to divorce as a blessing, because it allowed them to go on and find a straight spouse who could love them fully and be truly and completely intimate with them in a way they never had with their gay spouse.”

I agree with you. I also say that it is a tremendous act of love on the part of the straight partner to let his/her spouse go and not force them to remain in an impossible situation. Nevertheless the straight partner will hurt.

Jim

“If he knows what has happened, he and his wife have some things to work out, and it WON’T(emphasis added) be difficult.”

Is this a typo. Working out a marital breakup is seldom not difficult.

In my case(I say this to irritate you since you do not like my referring to my experience) one difficulty in my breakup was my ex tried to force herself back on me.

Jim

I ask the question, after your spouse betrayed you, did that spouse tell you that the two of you HAD to reconcile?

Jim

Does someone have to accept what a religious fanatic says about him/her? I was raised Roman Catholic pre Vatican II in a rather conservative diocese. I got tired of wondering if I was going to hell because I did not observe some man made rule of the Church. So I just refused to tear myself down because of what the church told me.

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

Ok, you caught me in a grammatical error. Likely because using disqus on a smartphone is a pain in the patootie. I meant to say “will be difficult.” Conflict, always takes work, and is often difficult.

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

Yes, and I told him to fuck off. I put up with his betrayal for 23 years…His mistress being in the liquid form, which led to his being abusive. I suspect he was sexually unfaithful as well, but could never prove it. When we split, he tried to coerce me back into his clutches, then he spread vicious rumours about me to everyone we both knew. I was long since done. I refuse to speak to him, and if he set foot on my property, my current husband would likely kill him. He’s out of mine and my children’s life, (they don’t want anything to do with his crazy ass either). We have moved on, are blessed..incredibly bless with the people in our lives…spouses, children, grandkids, we’ve gained since we shed the cause of so much misery.

http://allegro63.wordpress.com/ allegro63

“Does someone have to accept what a religious fanatic says about him/her?” The answer is of course no. Whether they be a religious fanatic, a well meaning friend, a co-worker, etc. People’s opinions of you can be taken as serious or as credible as you choose. You can see the validity, or how ludicrous it is. It’s all up to you. Which gives you more power than someone else’s opinion.

Joe Farrell

where do you get that from what I said? we are talking about one specific sexual ‘thing’ and where does it say we have to suffer? Obviously you, Andy, do not believe that Christ died for out sins and shields us from this depression you assert must exist.

Andy

Perhaps I’m guilty of putting you into a box, but I’ve never talked with anyone who claimed homosexuality was a sin that didn’t harp on the fact that God hates sin and how we have to resist temptation and all that shit. And many of them suggest all sins are equal in God’s eyes (a convenient anthropomorphism). They insist that premarital sex and homosexual sex are deadly sins. And then they prattle on about how God is vengeant and how we will suffer his wrath if we do not repent and sin no more. In short, they talk about sin way too much.

By spending so much time talking about sin and how much we should all avoid it, they focus far less on love. They rarely mention the greatest commandment (love God and love others), instead trotting out prooftexts to justify their reasons for hating on those that engage in these so-called “sinful” activities that, in fact, hurt no one, and do not concern anyone other than those directly involved. And yet, they often engage in everyday activities that are likewise forbidden in the same breath as those they condemn. They trim their beards. They wear clothing of mixed fabrics. They eat any of the many “unclean” animals. They don’t pay their employees each and every day. Yet no one, including themselves, thinks less of them for any of those things.

I know a lot of fundamentalists would disagree, but I don’t think we should spend so much time hung up on whether or not things that don’t hurt others are sins. Having such thoughts seems incredibly depressing to me because of how many things they’re missing out on in life. Unless you’re okay with an ascetic lifestyle. I’ve got news for you, though: most people aren’t. And you should no more push your lifestyle on them than you would allow them to push theirs on you, something that almost every opponent of marriage equality accuses gays of doing. That’s incredibly hypocritical.

Based on your previous post, I think it’s fair to say some of these things apply to you, and by extrapolation, I assumed that many of them do. If all of these do not, then I apologize for putting you in a box. However, you are just as guilty of putting me in one by making assumptions about my beliefs.

This is the part where I drop the mic and say “I’m out.”

Jim

I have read the letters. It seems that the pastor is unaware of the affair, at least at the time of the letters. It also seems that the wife initiated the affair and that the affair ended because the lover broke it off.

I say again the most loving thing the pastor could do is to let his wife go and allow her to find happiness in a same sex relationship. If she wants to resume her marriage, is it very loving or considerate of her? She is expecting him to stay in the relationship even though he is not aware of what her feelings towards him are. Is it fair for a woman to expect a man to commit to her as her husband when she is incapable of comitting to him as his wife?

Things to think about.

Allen

[overlong rant against Christianity deleted]

Joe Farrell

Dude – we ALL sin. There are no grades of sin. I don’ judge my homosexual friends because they are homosexual just like I hope they don’t judge me for whatever sins they see in me. Judgment belongs to the Lord. Don’t put people in a box – its small minded.

Andy

Well yeah. Except for the part where you implied homosexuality is a sin. That part is bullshit.

nancy Alfred

My Ex-Husband dumped me two weeks ago after because i accused him of seeing someone else and insulting him. I want him back in my life but he refused to have any contact with me, i was so confused and i didn’t know what to do, so i had to go to the internet for help and i saw a testimony of how a spell caster helped people to get their ex back so i contacted the spell caster and explained my problem to him and he did a love spell for me and assured me that after 3days, my ex will return to me and to my greatest surprise the third day my ex came knocking at my door begging for forgiveness. I am so happy that my love is back again and not only that, we are about to get married. Once again thank you Esango Priest, You are truly a great man. He can be of great help and I will not stop publishing him on the internet because he is a wonderful man, you can reach him via email:esangopriest@gmail.com

LilyDawn

I’m late to this discussion but as a Christian who came out later in life I believe I may be able to shed some light into what it is like to leave a marriage of 20+ years because you can no longer live a lie = pure hell. For all the people who claim she should have never married him in the first place. .. how dare you? ! Which one of you who claims they are a Christian hasn’t one or more times done something to try to be the best Christian you could be and failed? I went to Bible college, worked in the church my whole adult life, homeschooled 3 amazing children all because I felt I was living my best Christian life. I knew I felt same sex attraction and told my husband before we were married. But reality check here. .. Being gay in 1980′s is not being gay in 2014. Especially within the Body of Christ. I thought that if as the prevailing thought was that people could choose to be gay then I could choose to be straight. As a Christian woman that meant being married if I wanted to have children. I was following the rules. I was also dying inside. The shameful feelings of my sexuality within my marriage, the tearful prayers of God to forgive me for my feelings, the constant “denying myself” was torture. My daughter recently read an essay she’d written in medical school. .. In which she talked about the divorce and my coming out process. She recounted how she as a child didn’t see how deeply unhappy and spiritually tortured I was until she saw me healed and whole. It’s not easy to walk away from a 20 year marriage. My exhusband suffered as much as I. Divorce is painful for everyone involved. .. But staying in a marriage for friendships sake deprives the straight partner of beautiful intimacy and from the psychological pain of knowing that in the most fundamental marital ways you are not compatible. This is something the church will be dealing with for another two decades at least as more men and women begin living an authentic Christian life as gay men and lesbians.

Rose Marylove

Am happy to share this testimony about the great man called Dr Samura. I am Sandra from California , my husband had an affair with another lady for almost 10 years now and it was the worse thing that ever happened to our marriage. I was forced to take a good hard look at MY behavior in the marriage and I came to realize that I was partly to blame for his affair. I had become emotionally unavailable to him and when something good or bad happened in my life, I called my friends instead of my husband. I had stopped allowing him to love me and to support me and he felt as if I no longer needed him. As a musician on the road with his band, it became to much temptation for him when a girl he met on road became interested in him and was more than available for him emotionally and physically. Once I really started to examine my behavior, I realized that I had as much work to do as he did. When going through all theses problem i came across Dr Samura then i explained things to him. after explanation to him, he told me what to do by bringing back my husband so i decided to follow the rules which he gave to me. Now, My husband cut all tires with his other woman and became committed to working on our marriage to save it. Today, we have a beautiful son, another on the way in a couple weeks, we own our home, and have a fuller, happier life than we ever imagined. After i came across the testimony made by Julie about how this man of spirit brought back her ex husband for more than ten years in marriage. so my if you are in such pain and you don’t no what to do you can contact this great man for help i promise you all he will help you the way he helped me so via Email SAMURATELLERSPELL100@YAHOO.COM or call him +2348103508204 or visit his website http://samuratellerspell.webs.com/

BrinKennedy

You seem to be looking at this from only one, limited perspective.

The wife did, in fact, cheat on her husband – no one is disputing that. But you say her “supposed excuse” is because she’s gay and no longer attracted to him. Except it has been mentioned that she married him, because of the pressure to “fix” her homosexuality – meaning from the beginning she was not attracted to him on every level.

Yes, she would rather be with a woman, because, well, she’s a lesbian. That doesn’t negate his good qualities, nor does it negate the full desires of her heart – after all, you being attracted to men (I assume) is not solely based on lust. I’m straight, but I am not attracted to my husband because of lust. He is able to fulfill the multiple desires of my heart and personality (and I hope I do the same for him, of course). Homosexuality is not just about sex or lust. You’re leaving out everything else that makes a romantic relationship meaningful.

She is not getting a pass for her affair. But there is an element to her situation, that would be missing if she had had an affair with another man. People here are not condoning her affair, but they understand why it happened, why it was so tempting. They understand that in marrying the gentleman, she was suppressing her true self, in trying to conform to what was expected of her.

To suggest that the man get a sex change to make her happy is so off base. Why should he change who he is, anymore than she should have to change herself? This isn’t just about her happiness – after all, there are three people involved (we’ll exclude the children, in order to focus on the romantic side of this situation). The wife deserves to be herself entirely. The husband deserves to have a wife who is able to be herself completely, who is able to love him fully. The other woman deserves happiness as well, but also has to respect that there is a marriage involved.

To make this a little more relatable (is that a word?), perhaps, for yourself: it is entirely possible to meet two men, who are both loving, supportive, decent, and husband material, but one fulfills you more completely than the other. It could be for any number of reasons (after all, you’re the only one who can decide what it means for you to be happy). It would be perfectly understandable that you would feel less than complete and face some temptation if you met the more compatible man after marrying the other. What you do when faced with that temptation is your call, as it was with these women. Even that’s not on the same level as what the wife faced, though, since you’re not denying an integral part of yourself, in order to fix what isn’t broken, but as close as I can think of at this moment.

And why would you even suggest that the husband undergo a sex change? What would be the point? He’s (from what we can gather) a straight man. To change his outer appearance would not change who he is – that is, it would not make him a woman and therefore what the wife is attracted to. He deserves to be himself entirely, just as the wife deserves. Seriously, to suggest that he try to change genders (I hope that’s the appropriate word) just to save a marriage is just so odd. What if this marriage had taken place while it was still taboo for a white person to marry a black person? A white woman marries a white man, because that is was is expected, even though she is attracted to black men – should he try to change his race just to salvage the marriage?

To the other posters, I hope I have not used the wrong terms or stepped on any toes. The above is just how I understand this situation. I am still learning about the LGBTQ community and their struggles. Feel free to correct any mistakes I might have made in trying to understand the situation blogged about!

Barbara Hoyt

I mentioned the sex change only because it seems to be the only problem. She admits he is a good man, provides for his family and that she loves him. The fact that he has a physical trait that he cannot change is not his fault. She married him this way AND had children with him and no one forced her to. Sorry I am not buying the “I was really a lesbian the whole time” story. Something’s fishy about this whole thing. She seems like she’s just being a selfish and uncaring (maybe bored) house wife and had an affair. Doesn’t matter if the affair was with a man, a woman, two men, black white, whatever….

“A white woman marries a white man, because that is was is expected, even though she is attracted to black men – should he try to change his race just to salvage the marriage?” Uh no. And that is my whole point. Why should his color matter? Why should his or her gender matter? If she was straight and he husband decided to have a sex change or liked dressing in woman’s clothing should she leave? Or if she truly loved her man, maybe she would support him and stay and be the wife he needs? Isn’t that what love and marriage is about? Commitment, for better or for worse? Maybe people should reconsider marriage if they can’t handle it. Don’t get married and don’t bring kids into the picture because they are the ones who really suffer.

BarbaraR

Do you truly think that sexuality is defined by genitals alone? That a sex change would make the difference?

It would appear from your post that you have no real concept of how complicated sexuality can be, and that you dismiss completely that this woman could have been gay all along.

There are many, many gay people who denied their sexuality and married someone of the opposite sex because they thought it would “cure” them or that it was the “right thing to do.” And in the end they realized they were living a lie, were unhappy, and got out. Of course there was pain and feelings of betrayal for all concerned; ending a marriage is seldom simple and hurt-free.

But staying in half a marriage isn’t the answer for everyone. Both parties deserve a fully committed marriage. You can love someone but not be attracted to them. Why continue the deceit just to stay married?

BrinKennedy

I see BarbaraR has already addressed the genitalia side of this – that just because he would be given female genitalia doesn’t make him a female. You should never have brought it up, because it is completely misinformed.

“Or if she truly loved her man, maybe she would support him and stay and be the wife he needs?” <– how is she the wife he needs if she is not straight? This man deserves a woman who can love him COMPLETELY.

"Why should his or her gender matter?" <—his gender DOES matter, because that is what is keeping him from being her ideal partner, and vice versa. It's also what makes him who he is (hence the whole sex change being pointless – he would still be a male, but with female genitalia). Do you really expect a lesbian is attracted solely to female parts? That the rest of the person is irrelevant? May I repeat: he would still be a MALE.

Also, love doesn't mean staying with someone. I've learned that sometimes love means letting someone go when you know that you aren't right for them. No one is saying that it's going to be easy for her to make this decision (whether she stays or leaves), but a decision has to be made. My opinion is they need to sit together and have a very serious and frank discussion.

By saying that this is probably nothing more than a bored housewife having an affair situation, you are completely missing the heart of this matter. Perhaps you have never felt the pressure to marry someone who appears to be your perfect match, or because it was what was expected of you. But you need to treat this with some empathy. Just because you've never experienced this sort of heartwrenching situation, doesn't mean it isn't real.

And if it's selfish to want to be with someone that completes us, then color me selfish. Should I have married my first fiance, just because he was a great guy? No. You're making love into some sort of trap. I learned a long time ago that love isn't enough. Love doesn't mean you stay no matter what. Sometimes, it means letting go of an amazing person, because you aren't right for them. Or because, as amazing as they might be, they aren't right for you.

anakinmcfly

yo. Trans person here. The problem is your faulty assumption that a ‘sex change’ is, well, a gender change. Trans people don’t transition to change their gender; we already *are* our gender. As far as we know, this man in question identifies as a (straight) male and has no issues with that whatsoever.

So getting a ‘sex change’ for him would just make him a man with female bits, as opposed to if it were a trans woman, where getting a ‘sex change’ would turn her from a woman with male bits to a woman with female bits. And some trans women are, yes, in happy relationships with other lesbian women. But they were always women to begin with, which is what those lesbians in question were attracted to. It’s not a comparable case at all.

“Why should his or her gender matter?”

I gather from this that you’re bisexual, but not everyone is.

“If she was straight and he husband decided to have a sex change or liked dressing in woman’s clothing should she leave?”

That would be down to both of them and what they figure is best. If they love each other, they’d consider the possibility that, in such a case, they might be better with other people than trying to uphold a marriage that doesn’t let them live honestly.

That aside, I agree that cheating is wrong and that marriage is a commitment that people should be ready for. But in the case of gay and lesbian people socially pressured into straight marriages, the issue is that the choice was not wholly theirs in the first place.

Andy

Also, she seems to have conflated trans people with cross-dressers, which are different things. I’ve heard that many cross-dressers are in fact cisgender.

anakinmcfly

And meanwhile, there are trans male drag queens. Which would probably explode all their theories. But as I said to my mother when she wanted to know why I couldn’t just live as a masculine girl who didn’t wear dresses and stuff: I’d much rather live as a boy who wears dresses.

Sorry but this is beyond confusing and it’s wrong. The woman above cheated on her spouse and will probably never be happy or satisfied with anyone because she doesn’t truly understand marriage and commitment. I’m sure even if she got to be with her female lover she would eventually get bored and move on to someone else. I see it all the time. And this woman here in this new story is also as confused about what she really wants in life and I doubt she will find real happiness because she too doesn’t understand love and commitment. Personally I don’t care how many people you bounce around to in life. If you marry, divorce, switch sides, whatever…what really sucks is when these people mess up the lives of innocent children who need stability in their lives and not a mom or dad that bounces around to different sex partners. If you take a vow before God and man then stick to it. If you can’t handle marriage, commit and stay faithful then don’t get married.

BarbaraR

How is this story (which may or may not be true as this rather questionable website offers no proof whatsoever) any of your business?

You have posted on this one topic many, many times. You clearly have no concept whatsoever of the complexities of human sexuality. Your entire dog in this fight seems to be that people should just suck up their unhappiness and stay married no matter what because OMG WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN?

This is not a one-size-fits-all world. If you don’t want a divorce, fine. Don’t get one. But don’t expect everyone else to go along with that.

Barbara Hoyt

[comment deleted]

BarbaraR

Babs… This is a discussion forum but no one has an unlimited right to comment endlessly about the same old shit over and over.

This is an LGBTQ-affirming site. It is a safe space for LGBTQ people, not a place for people to come complain about them. Try to get a grip. You’re completely obsessed with what other people are doing in their marriages. Get over it.