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I understand what you're saying. But I completely disagree about BioWare being good devs. In fact, I think they are border-line Cryptic material - especially that cocky and arrogant Daniel Erikson.

They had the financial backing to make the first MMO that appealed to the masses. Instead, they focused on CGI, hype, simpler than simple pvp, and massive box sales. The "we'll fix it after the launch" attitude doesn't work.

But what you want (I assume more sandboxish) does not appeal to the masses and if anything gmaes like WoW and TOR appeal more then say DDO or LOTRO.

And personally I find that you're a bit ignorant if you think that this game is somehow the most broken MMO to come out in the last 6 years, if it wasn't for RIFT I think people woudl be praising this game for its (relativly) Smooth launch.

Ignorant? I never said the game was broken. I'm saying that other than story, they have brought absolutely nothing new to the table. It's so linear and so "small scaled" that it belongs in a different genre. This goes from their tiny instanced raids to their tiny instanced pvp system.

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SWTOR disgusts me because of their poor use of research and resources.

They didn't even bother to look at the horrible track record of Pure Theme Parks, e.g., Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Star Trek Online, Aion, etc.

BioWare did a fantastic job with the questing. They probably created the most entertaining grind to max level within the entire genre. However, there is no "me" in SWTOR. I have no identity; I have very little freedom. This is one of the smoking gun complaints in the games listed above.

No end-game, boring and redundant instanced PvP, typecasted classes to the point where it's cheesy, shockingly poor performance for being an underwhelming graphical game, a blatant lack of social skills, the lack-luster console space shooter, and the complete and total single-player co'op epedemic are just some of the features that paint this terrible game a target.

What pisses people off the most is their poor use of resources. They had the financial backing to make this game appealing to everyone. This includes socializers, explorers, adventurers, combat players, roleplayers, instanced pvp players, world pvp players, etc. There is nothing to explore. Follow the path and move along.

This game, as far as I'm concerned, is the new laughing stock of the genre.

Because Sandbox games have a great track record themselves!

Again there is no way players like yourself will ever be pleased!

Insatiable, Insatiable!

Like I said before, if there is ever a AAA-funded sandbox MMO, the genre will change for the better.

And when I say sandbox, I'm not refering to these hardcore first-person pov games like Mortal Online. I'm talking about a game that is loaded with both content and player-driven content.

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SWTOR disgusts me because of their poor use of research and resources.

They didn't even bother to look at the horrible track record of Pure Theme Parks, e.g., Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Star Trek Online, Aion, etc.

BioWare did a fantastic job with the questing. They probably created the most entertaining grind to max level within the entire genre. However, there is no "me" in SWTOR. I have no identity; I have very little freedom. This is one of the smoking gun complaints in the games listed above.

No end-game, boring and redundant instanced PvP, typecasted classes to the point where it's cheesy, shockingly poor performance for being an underwhelming graphical game, a blatant lack of social skills, the lack-luster console space shooter, and the complete and total single-player co'op epedemic are just some of the features that paint this terrible game a target.

What pisses people off the most is their poor use of resources. They had the financial backing to make this game appealing to everyone. This includes socializers, explorers, adventurers, combat players, roleplayers, instanced pvp players, world pvp players, etc. There is nothing to explore. Follow the path and move along.

This game, as far as I'm concerned, is the new laughing stock of the genre.

Because Sandbox games have a great track record themselves!

Again there is no way players like yourself will ever be pleased!

Insatiable, Insatiable!

I honestly think there is a way to please those of us who are looking for more then just a b-line to endgame. It just so happens that it doesn't exist, and from the looks of it, probably won't exist. I'd venture to say that it is far too much work to create a game that has something to make every group happy. I'd love to see a hybrid of a sandbox game and a themepark game. I have no idea if that is even possible, but I do dare to dream of a day that this exists.

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Like I said before, if there is ever a AAA-funded sandbox MMO, the genre will change for the better.

And when I say sandbox, I'm not refering to these hardcore first-person pov games like Mortal Online. I'm talking about a game that is loaded with both content and player-driven content.

SWG... Also had the SW name and was still a failure in the eyes of the very devs who created it.

I think what you typed is absolutly BS the reason being that I once tried to get about 5 of my non mmo playing gamer friends into MMOs, I gave them all trial invites. They played for about a month n a half each and then unsubbed, Their reason? that there was too much crap to do and the game was too big. The Irony to it is they absoluty adore SKYRIM.

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Originally posted by Snaylor47

Originally posted by precious328

No end-game, boring and redundant instanced PvP, typecasted classes to the point where it's cheesy, shockingly poor performance for being an underwhelming graphical game, a blatant lack of social skills, the lack-luster console space shooter, and the complete and total single-player co'op epedemic are just some of the features that paint this terrible game a target.

Most MMOs don't have very much end game at launch SWTOR did so please don't lie it makes you look like a troll.

How did you get by in this genre?

Read above

You know what fuck it...

Something tells me you don't relise that MMOs require time to add more content and polish.

You do realize that MMORPGs live and die within the first month or two, right? The track record is all there with some contenders over the years.

As for instanced, redundant PvP, that's a trend with the newer MMORPGs now, and a direction I don't like. Older titles allowed PvP in the same world as everyone else. RvR included with some. You could make a push with your buddies / guildmates to stir some trouble up in or near an establishment well known for the control by the enemy. Or you could roam the countryside looking for trouble. Or you could hit a smaller but still-enemy held area. Or you could provide security against enemy PvPers in a friendly held area that is well known to be hit by the enemy. Or you go to a smaller, friendly held area, just in case it does get attacked by the enemy.

I recall in the 2003-2005 days of SWG on Tatooine, Imperial held Bestine and Rebel held Anchorhead, were sites of some major PvP fighting. Imperials and Rebels hitting back and forth. Sometimes you'd amass a big PvP group, then strike out to attack the enemy city. On the way, guys on the outskirts notice several enemy player scouts on speederbikes just looking at and tracking your movements, careful not to get engaged, and reporting everything back to their faction. The enemy may either sit tight and prepare to defend, or sometimes venture out and meet us in the open desert dunes of Tatooine.

Get my drift? That was the freedom, openness, and variety of options that open world PvP allowed, especially if there were mechanics involved for takeovers.

But instanced PvP is the worst. You fight in the same 1 or 2 battlegrounds ALL THE TIME. There is no variety except for some of the player names involved. When preview details came out on SWTOR that it was heavily instanced PvP, that was another major strike against it.

"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)

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I don't base it off what WoW has done...neither should game makers any more. Competing with WoW is what has kilt many a game

No. Copying WoW has killed so many games.

Copying WoW is not what hurt games like Aion, Rift, AoC and SWTOR. It is the fact that they "tried to copy" WoW and failed meserably at it. I have said it before and I'll say it again, I'll say it a thousand times more, it is not that these games copied WoW, it is that they tried - if you are going to copy WoW, you have to do it "as good" or "better" than WoW. Across the board...not just partially or half-arsed. That is why these other games are not as successful and why they continue to not be as successful as WoW. They are not doing it as good or better.

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Originally posted by Warmaker

Originally posted by Snaylor47

Originally posted by precious328

No end-game, boring and redundant instanced PvP, typecasted classes to the point where it's cheesy, shockingly poor performance for being an underwhelming graphical game, a blatant lack of social skills, the lack-luster console space shooter, and the complete and total single-player co'op epedemic are just some of the features that paint this terrible game a target.

Most MMOs don't have very much end game at launch SWTOR did so please don't lie it makes you look like a troll.

How did you get by in this genre?

Read above

You know what fuck it...

Something tells me you don't relise that MMOs require time to add more content and polish.

You do realize that MMORPGs live and die within the first month or two, right? The track record is all there with some contenders over the years.

As for instanced, redundant PvP, that's a trend with the newer MMORPGs now, and a direction I don't like. Older titles allowed PvP in the same world as everyone else. RvR included with some. You could make a push with your buddies / guildmates to stir some trouble up in or near an establishment well known for the control by the enemy. Or you could roam the countryside looking for trouble. Or you could hit a smaller but still-enemy held area. Or you could provide security against enemy PvPers in a friendly held area that is well known to be hit by the enemy. Or you go to a smaller, friendly held area, just in case it does get attacked by the enemy.

I recall in the 2003-2005 days of SWG on Tatooine, Imperial held Bestine and Rebel held Anchorhead, were sites of some major PvP fighting. Imperials and Rebels hitting back and forth. Sometimes you'd amass a big PvP group, then strike out to attack the enemy city. On the way, guys on the outskirts notice several enemy player scouts on speederbikes just looking at and tracking your movements, careful not to get engaged, and reporting everything back to their faction. The enemy may either sit tight and prepare to defend, or sometimes venture out and meet us in the open desert dunes of Tatooine.

Get my drift? That was the freedom, openness, and variety of options that open world PvP allowed, especially if there were mechanics involved for takeovers.

But instanced PvP is the worst. You fight in the same 1 or 2 battlegrounds ALL THE TIME. There is no variety except for some of the player names involved. When preview details came out on SWTOR that it was heavily instanced PvP, that was another major strike against it.

Seeing how most MMOs many claim are dead are in fact still around. Then you have the obvious one like Tabula Rasa.

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Originally posted by Warmaker

I recall in the 2003-2005 days of SWG on Tatooine, Imperial held Bestine and Rebel held Anchorhead, were sites of some major PvP fighting. Imperials and Rebels hitting back and forth. Sometimes you'd amass a big PvP group, then strike out to attack the enemy city. On the way, guys on the outskirts notice several enemy player scouts on speederbikes just looking at and tracking your movements, careful not to get engaged, and reporting everything back to their faction. The enemy may either sit tight and prepare to defend, or sometimes venture out and meet us in the open desert dunes of Tatooine.

Get my drift? That was the freedom, openness, and variety of options that open world PvP allowed, especially if there were mechanics involved for takeovers.

But instanced PvP is the worst. You fight in the same 1 or 2 battlegrounds ALL THE TIME. There is no variety except for some of the player names involved. When preview details came out on SWTOR that it was heavily instanced PvP, that was another major strike against it.

That was some fun times! I remember this really well. That was probably the height of MMORPG PvP for me. Instanced stuff is ok, but it doesnt have the same feel at all. It feels like a mini-game or something. SWG was truely immersive.

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Originally posted by teakbois

In both newer games people hit the cap, without such heavy analysis in less than 3.

I can't personally speak for Rift but if someone leveled to max level in 3 (days?) then I don't see how BW can be blamed for that. It's the user's fault for speed rushing through content spamming spacebar.

If a sight seeing tour takes 20 minutes to complete but I run through it not looking at anything, stopping to ponder or take it in, is it the tour's fault for me completing it in 2 minutes.

How about a 900 page novel... I sure can page through one of those really fast. Is it the writers fault if I do so, only glancing at each page for but a second and then criticize the book for faults which I created.

Now, I mostly agree(or don't find need to disagree) with everything else you said, OP, except for the above. We need to have some personal responsibility with everything, including MMOs. Here we sit on our high horses expecting a newly released game to have a fully fleshed out leveling experience AND PvP system AND 'endgame' yet we foam at the mouths about it taking too long to be made/released and criticize them for spending too much money on it which can't be found IG.(because that's exactly what I've been reading on these forums)

Yes, the devs have a lot of fault and blame to be placed on them... but so does the ravenous community.

I can't help but wonder how many critics have tried to program something but a fraction as complex as a MMO.

We really need separate forums for every newly launched game. There can be the anti-<MMO> one and there can be the 'what general discussion should be' one. All the lamenting can happen together where each can find solace in like minded can't-move-on-ers leaving the rest of us to actually move forward and discuss meaningful and relevant topics.

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Stop obsessing over one solitary thing that stops (leveling) and realize that you're still constantly in a journey for as long as the game keeps tossing new things at you.

People are so hyper-fixated over leveling that even when a game has months and months and months of gameplay at endgame, they think that somehow the game has stopped.

It hasn't.

"Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

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Stop obsessing over one solitary thing that stops (leveling) and realize that you're still constantly in a journey for as long as the game keeps tossing new things at you.

People are so hyper-fixated over leveling that even when a game has months and months and months of gameplay at endgame, they think that somehow the game has stopped.

It hasn't.

Be that as it may, going through the same thing day in and day out doesn't feel like a journey. It feels like a drive to work and back home again. Yes, it is a journey, but it is a boring one you do everyday.

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Seeing how most MMOs many claim are dead are in fact still around. Then you have the obvious one like Tabula Rasa.

"Dead" and "Failed" in the MMORPG genre are almost one in the same to me. "Dead" MMORPGs merely finally got shot in the head to stop the suffering for all involved. "Failed" MMORPGs are allowed to still lay twitching on the side of the road after colossal failures. AoC, WAR, STO, etc.

"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)

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Seeing how most MMOs many claim are dead are in fact still around. Then you have the obvious one like Tabula Rasa.

"Dead" and "Failed" in the MMORPG genre are almost one in the same to me. "Dead" MMORPGs merely finally got shot in the head to stop the suffering for all involved. "Failed" MMORPGs are allowed to still lay twitching on the side of the road after colossal failures. AoC, WAR, STO, etc.

What did they fail to do? Capture WoW numbers? Failed? Those games you list are still around and still being played by folks who actaully enjoy them. Even Vangaurd is still around.

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I don't base it off what WoW has done...neither should game makers any more. Competing with WoW is what has kilt many a game

No. Copying WoW has killed so many games.

Copying WoW is not what hurt games like Aion, Rift, AoC and SWTOR. It is the fact that they "tried to copy" WoW and failed meserably at it. I have said it before and I'll say it again, I'll say it a thousand times more, it is not that these games copied WoW, it is that they tried - if you are going to copy WoW, you have to do it "as good" or "better" than WoW. Across the board...not just partially or half-arsed. That is why these other games are not as successful and why they continue to not be as successful as WoW. They are not doing it as good or better.

No, that is completely wrong.

First off, Blizzard fans swoon over anything Blizzard puts out. Now the same can be said about, oh let's say Star Wars, but with one key difference. SW fan != computer user or gamer. Blizzard fan = computer user AND gamer.

Secondly, WoW essentially made MMOs accessible to the masses via instant gratification. Before WoW, getting to max level in a MMO meant something; after WoW, not a single f was given. They then disguised the typical MMO level grind as 'end game' and made the never ending treadmill of end game gear. In essence you're doing the same thing, just one is a level number while the other is the gear your wearing. Funny note, previous to WoW games had more depth in this respect as they had endgame as well.

Third, the perfect storm. WoW is an anomaly to MMOs because of this. Even their fabled Titan won't have as great success. Greedy CEOs don't know this though. They see $_$ and have at it. It's not about them 'failing to capture lightning in a bottle' as there is no real lightning to be caught, only deception and fanism.

Fourth, unwashed masses(so to speak). WoW brought in way too many new people into the MMO genre, essentially changing the MMO community... FOR THE WORST. On top of this, these new players have no idea about MMOs as they think WoW is unique and creative when that's furthest from the truth. But don't try to tell them that because they won't have any of it. WoW will always be the first and last MMO ever to them.

Fifth, the ravenous community facilitated by WoW. I've never seen people blitz through MMOs until after WoW came out. Now ever game since is being blitz through, coincidence?

...and lastly... before you argue success = quality or worth or w/e, I have one word and sequential number following it for you: MADDEN. Nuff said.

So if you want to blindly say WoW success has nothing to do with these MMOs, is not to blame and was a quality MMO while the new ones are not(in post-WoW MMO terms) then I'll happily sit back, see you for who you are and yell at those darn kids to get off my dang lawn.

We really need separate forums for every newly launched game. There can be the anti-<MMO> one and there can be the 'what general discussion should be' one. All the lamenting can happen together where each can find solace in like minded can't-move-on-ers leaving the rest of us to actually move forward and discuss meaningful and relevant topics.

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Seeing how most MMOs many claim are dead are in fact still around. Then you have the obvious one like Tabula Rasa.

"Dead" and "Failed" in the MMORPG genre are almost one in the same to me. "Dead" MMORPGs merely finally got shot in the head to stop the suffering for all involved. "Failed" MMORPGs are allowed to still lay twitching on the side of the road after colossal failures. AoC, WAR, STO, etc.

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Stop obsessing over one solitary thing that stops (leveling) and realize that you're still constantly in a journey for as long as the game keeps tossing new things at you.

People are so hyper-fixated over leveling that even when a game has months and months and months of gameplay at endgame, they think that somehow the game has stopped.

It hasn't.

Be that as it may, going through the same thing day in and day out doesn't feel like a journey. It feels like a drive to work and back home again. Yes, it is a journey, but it is a boring one you do everyday.

As long as we're not trying to pretend earlier MMORPGs were somehow better, I totally agree with that statement.

Early MMORPGs were a drive to work with endless mob-grinding long before you reached endgame. Despite newer MMORPGs being way better than that, they could obviously stand to be changed in ways that make them interesting for longer. The same could be said of any game, really.

"Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

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Seeing how most MMOs many claim are dead are in fact still around. Then you have the obvious one like Tabula Rasa.

"Dead" and "Failed" in the MMORPG genre are almost one in the same to me. "Dead" MMORPGs merely finally got shot in the head to stop the suffering for all involved. "Failed" MMORPGs are allowed to still lay twitching on the side of the road after colossal failures. AoC, WAR, STO, etc.

What did they fail to do? Capture WoW numbers? Failed? Those games you list are still around and still being played by folks who actaully enjoy them. Even Vangaurd is still around.

/facepalm

"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)

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You do realize that MMORPGs live and die within the first month or two, right? The track record is all there with some contenders over the years.

As for instanced, redundant PvP, that's a trend with the newer MMORPGs now, and a direction I don't like. Older titles allowed PvP in the same world as everyone else. RvR included with some. You could make a push with your buddies / guildmates to stir some trouble up in or near an establishment well known for the control by the enemy. Or you could roam the countryside looking for trouble. Or you could hit a smaller but still-enemy held area. Or you could provide security against enemy PvPers in a friendly held area that is well known to be hit by the enemy. Or you go to a smaller, friendly held area, just in case it does get attacked by the enemy.

I recall in the 2003-2005 days of SWG on Tatooine, Imperial held Bestine and Rebel held Anchorhead, were sites of some major PvP fighting. Imperials and Rebels hitting back and forth. Sometimes you'd amass a big PvP group, then strike out to attack the enemy city. On the way, guys on the outskirts notice several enemy player scouts on speederbikes just looking at and tracking your movements, careful not to get engaged, and reporting everything back to their faction. The enemy may either sit tight and prepare to defend, or sometimes venture out and meet us in the open desert dunes of Tatooine.

Get my drift? That was the freedom, openness, and variety of options that open world PvP allowed, especially if there were mechanics involved for takeovers.

But instanced PvP is the worst. You fight in the same 1 or 2 battlegrounds ALL THE TIME. There is no variety except for some of the player names involved. When preview details came out on SWTOR that it was heavily instanced PvP, that was another major strike against it.

God I miss SWG when I read stuff like that, "raiding" AH was awesome, SWG is my personal #1 when it comes to pvp, stuff like BH hunting Jedi's, with a bunch of TKA's backing you up, chasing them for some time, finding the bastard and hoping that the small time window you'd have to lock him down and beat him up, like he just grabbed your gf on the arse in a club was super exciting, sometimes you and your crew would get him on the first hit, and sometimes the bugger would forcerun away and head to his guild town asap with you chasing him down, heck we once spend 7 hours killing a jedi, which ended in a huge fight at "his" town against his guild, that day just went by as if it were 1 hour, great stuff.

Regarding SWTOR, I bought it because it had the Star wars label, I've never played any Bioware game before tbh, but was hoping for just a wee bit of star wars magic, even though I realised that it werent and never would be like SWG, my opion about it?

What a horrible excuse for a mmo, seriously, I'll admit I played WoW at launch and actually enjoyed it for some years, it HAD a good balance of not beeing too Theme parkish for me, world pvp would happen and server communities were somwhat close (you'd usually know who were beating you up)

So what went wrong? Instead of experimenting with more sandbox in their game, they obviously wanted new people to try out mmo's, and went down the disaster route of turning into an extremely linear RPG wannbe game, and what happens next? other devs look at wow and envy their succes, so they copy them, not realising that WoW are loosing subs after they released the disaster that was Cata, it's as if they just need to throw in some pvp vendors and bg's, and then a few raids and tokens to buy gear for, and that's it, wtf?

And people call that content? It's not content, it's mindless grinding, I'd rather grind out a character killing the same 10 mobs for 2 months (yes, sprta SWG style), and have actual content when I finally reach the max level, than be fooled with the usual instanced pvp/ instanced raid BS.

Remember sitting Krayt hunting? I'd take that any day over some weird raid where you feel like you're part of some dancing crew who gotta perform an exact action at a specific time to be successful, it's mindblowing that this kind of "content" is still labeled as content be actual mmo players.

I play mmo's to live in a virtual world, not to follow the red line from level 1-50 and then run a treadmill.

WAR was, if possible, better than SWTOR imo, I had superhigh hopes for SWTOR, but seeing how far they took theme park kinda surprised me, never thought anyone would turn it into a ride in a theme park.