Hit a nerve there gabe by pointing out that your life revolves around fbo!? Ive told you before that it is impossible for one to converse with the likes of you so I guess I dont have anything to say. Keep calm and type on gabe!

If god didn't want us to eat animals....he wouldn't have made them out of food.

Thanks PBer, had seen these earlier. They are all over the internet if anyone wants to take the time to find out a little bit.

Plainsman Said:

If this happened here in ND

My point is you want to whine about something that may or may not have happened. Are you running out of things to complain about. If if if if was my point. You proud of your third grade comments, but you should have understood the story. I'm saying why ask about something that no one knows. If they took the mama cows, if the babies starved. Of course it's as real as your Reid linked to Bund bs, so what could I expect.

Duh me be done now.

"Lord, I apologize for that one there, and please be with allthe starvingPygmies down there in New Guinea."

"He's trying to be funny - it's a joke"

What sadly is not a joke is that people like plainsamn will disregard and dismiss actions like this and the facts behind this and rather attack people personally instead of taking the time to find out for themselves what the truth is and admitting it.

wstnodak Said:
Hit a nerve there gabe by pointing out that your life revolves around fbo!? Ive told you before that it is impossible for one to converse with the likes of you so I guess I dont have anything to say. Keep calm and type on gabe!

Lots life outside FBO west, belong to several orgs in our community and state, family, friends, ranch rodeo, hunting, ice fishing, shed hunting, Should actually be working with a couple horses now instead of spending as much time on here as I do, (kinda similar though, dealing with a couple horses and part of their anatomy and a few people on here) but dealing with those ones with four legs would be a lot more satisfying. Kinda stuck at home calving right now.

Anybody know if there is published peer reviewed scientific study that concludes cattle cant graze in harmony with the desert tortoise. From what I've read it takes 320 acres to run a cow calf pair. I find it hard to believe that two cows and two calves per section could possibly disrupt the precious tortoise. How about those god damn wild horses and donkeys. Why aren't they banned from the land?

"The only enemy of guns is rust and politicians."

"The best defense against usurpatory government is an assertive citizenry."

William F. Buckley, Jr.
"Unarmed helplessness is for sheep and the French." Ted Nugent

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
-Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
-Thomas Jefferson

cynical Said:
Anybody know if there is published peer reviewed scientific study that concludes cattle cant graze in harmony with the desert tortoise. From what I've read it takes 320 acres to run a cow calf pair. I find it hard to believe that two cows and two calves per section could possibly disrupt the precious tortoise. How about those god damn wild horses and donkeys. Why aren't they banned from the land?

any more cynical that is nothing more than a "how do we get more Federal monies" study.

It seems casinos and housing developments don't bother the tortoise. At least not enough that a few millions dollars in the right places won't overlook.

Ya I have a hard time believing after 120+ years of grazing that land it is the cows that's hurting that poor little guy.Especially when the permits they granted in place of grazing(solar energy) are said to do just as much if not more damage.

cynical Said:
Anybody know if there is published peer reviewed scientific study that concludes cattle cant graze in harmony with the desert tortoise. From what I've read it takes 320 acres to run a cow calf pair. I find it hard to believe that two cows and two calves per section could possibly disrupt the precious tortoise. How about those god damn wild horses and donkeys. Why aren't they banned from the land?

I dont go around guessing cup sizes either I just know a nice rack when I see one.

Ya I have a hard time believing after 120+ years of grazing that land it is the cows that's hurting that poor little guy.Especially when the permits they granted in place of grazing(solar energy) are said to do just as much if not more damage.

They (solar energy projects) do damage to the tortoise's habitat according to the BLM. That is why there needs to be mitigating lands (Bundy's) elsewhere to allow the development of the solar projects and give the tortoises somewhere also to live. Not sure who picks them up and moves them tho!

An article about the Gardner ranch in Nevada that also fell victim: www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/586067/postsAnother great concern to us is that, if we do not use the mountain for our cattle to show beneficial use on our VESTED WATER RIGHTS we lose it.

Pber, an interesting read, one of many examples all across the west of what happened to ranchers that stood up and did not take the govt's forced change to the multiple use agreements that existed since these lands came to be under the govt's control.

While grazing cattle is being systematically removed, development of these Federal lands is expanding at a correlating rate. Peoples pockets are being lined to allow this to happen.

And yet people who claim to have the best interests of conservation at the forefront make excuses and false claims to deny what these actions by the govt are truly about.

They will not ask why is there a connection back to the late 80's/early 90's in all these cases?

They will not take the time to learn what many in the ranching industry already know.

They deny the facts and instead try to make it about a couple of individuals they have petty personal dislikes for.

Meanwhile the govt expands their authoratative control over us incrementally and tightens the yoke of tyranny tell we can no longer break free.

Who will be the first to cry out when it is their rights and way of life being taken away????

It's all about control. Liberals and career "civil servants" can't get enough control. They must keep taking more to justify their position and existence. They also hate the rancher because he is historically a no nonsense self reliant independent spirit. That rubs liberals the wrong way.

"The only enemy of guns is rust and politicians."

"The best defense against usurpatory government is an assertive citizenry."

William F. Buckley, Jr.
"Unarmed helplessness is for sheep and the French." Ted Nugent

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
-Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
-Thomas Jefferson

This has spread out into what looks like six different debatable things. So many and some posts so long I have not read them. Where do we stand on the original subject? I still say anyone who grazes cattle for 20 years and doesn't pay should have enough intelligence to know he is doing something wrong. The courts say he is wrong, and I watched him lie on Sean Hannity.

As to the reasons Bundy is loosing his grazing rights, that's another story with mixed feelings. I think because he didn't pay his fees he should loose those grazing rights. As far as the tortoise I don't think anyone on here knows the requirements of the species. At least I hope no one is arrogant enough to think they know that.

Harry Reid? I don't like the guy, and if he did something wrong the people of Nevada, or our congress should do something about it. Did he do something wrong? I would bet my life he has done many things wrong. I don't know if this is one of them.

Things are not going to be good in the next years. Like I have said many times when you have a million people in a city voting one way and 500 ranchers voting another who do you think is going to win?

gst tries to tell people I am anti grazing even though for many years in private messages I have told him why I am for grazing at reasonable rates. I think grazing is a good management tool because idle land is worse than grazed. Vegetative build up from no grazing or fire is nearly as bad as overgrazing. Both change the vegetative community by allowing invasive species to overcome native plants. I could go on for pages why I think grazing should be allowed, but when people have an agenda counter to the people they are trying to deceive they will pay no attention.

This has spread out into what looks like six different debatable things. So many and some posts so long I have not read them. So you admit you have not taken the time to inform yourself, but yet you want people to accept what you claim as fact and truth. Where do we stand on the original subject? I still say anyone who grazes cattle for 20 years and doesn't pay should have enough intelligence to know he is doing something wrong. The courts say he is wrong, The judge that was promoted by Reid for a spot on the SCOTUS. and I watched him lie on Sean Hannity.

As to the reasons Bundy is loosing his grazing rights, that's another story with mixed feelings. I think because he didn't pay his fees he should loose those grazing rights. As far as the tortoise I don't think anyone on here knows the requirements of the species. At least I hope no one is arrogant enough to think they know that. Perhaps those "trained professional biologists" that were euthanizing them by the hundreds would know Bruce.

Harry Reid? I don't like the guy, and if he did something wrong the people of Nevada, or our congress should do something about it. Did he do something wrong? I would bet my life he has done many things wrong. I don't know if this is one of them.

Things are not going to be good in the next years. Like I have said many times when you have a million people in a city voting one way and 500 ranchers voting another who do you think is going to win?

So what should thse ranchers do bruce just capitualte to govt over reach and move of these lands thy have legally used for generations?

Perhaps when these millions watch the monies they spend on food double they will care less about bullshit claims about tortoises and how their food is produced.

gst tries to tell people I am anti grazing even though for many years in private messages I have told him why I am for grazing at reasonable rates. Bruce given your repeated tendencies to spout of bullshit that simply is not true, why should these calims be any more beleivable than any other false claims you make?

Do you begin to see the importance of credibility Bruce?

I think grazing is a good management tool because idle land is worse than grazed. Vegetative build up from no grazing or fire is nearly as bad as overgrazing. Both change the vegetative community by allowing invasive species to overcome native plants. I could go on for pages why I think grazing should be allowed, but when people have an agenda counter to the people they are trying to deceive they will pay no attention. So when the Federal agency you pay your fees to as a rancher begins to use them to remove your ability to graze lands tied to the water rights you have proven up for generations in direct conflict with the multiple use agreements these lads were originally started under, ................................And you have corrupt govt officials, judges, county commissioners, Senators,........................... I mean if you truly beleive grazing is a good thing that should be allowed bruce what would YOU have done if it was YOUR family in this situation?

Rememeber Bruce YOU inferred bundy was a domestic terrorist" just as Sen Reid did.

Plainsman Said:
There were perhaps some people who supported the Unibomber too, but they were smart enough not to put it on the internet. We will do a disservice to supporting the second amendment if were going to support nut jobs like those in Nevada. Bundy and his ilk are not standing up for their rights, they are trying to get something for nothing which in my book looked like armed robbery. They need to go to the prison mental ward.

Plainsman Said:
The site the Chinese wanted was over 200 miles south of Bundy's ranch.

It certainly seems the BLM was originally created in response to a request by the ranchers them selves to help better manage these lands for grazing and increase productivity.

Sort of like hunters asking for game wardens to control the slobs the ranchers who knew what was happening had to ask for some control of their slob ranchers. Most should have seen the blowing soil and known the damage they were causing. I have personally seen a lot of overgrazing on public lands. For two years I walked eight to ten miles every summer looking at public land from Denver to the Canadian border. I think many of he cuts are just bringing grazing back to reasonable levels.

Indeed bruce you would believe the removal of 52 of 53 previously and now the final one is "reasonable levels.

Plainsman Said:
Bundy on television says it takes 320 acres to support a cow. If land is that poor I don't think it should be grazed at all. Remember gst's post about the BLM was supposed to help ranchers, and the article showed sheep in Wyoming. The land had been grazed far beyond capacity. When I visited the Great Bend area of Texas this winter and read the history of grazing there it was an eye opener. It's been 100+ years and the land has not recovered. No acknowledgement of a decade of one of the most sevre droughts in history, just kick the ranchers of and stop grazing.
I think the BLM was started to manage federal lands not help ranchers, although they did. I think their main purpose was to keep ranchers from destroying the land like they did in Great Bend Texas.

even after proof of why the BLM was formed you denied it Bruce.
I don't understand how a cow can live on land that requires 320 acres to feed her. Do they sprint from grass spear to grass spear? Energetics should come into play here and I don't see where the intake would meet the output if grass clumps are so far apart that a cow burns more energy getting to the next clump of grass than she gets out of it. I would say it's time to shut down the grazing on that allotment tortoise or no tortoise.

You certainly seem, to "support grazing these lands" here plainsman.

you have no direct factual knowledge about this and yet you are quick to

"shut down grazing"

If you would like I can keep going, but I think most can judge the sincerity of your claims you "support" grazing of the public lands.

gst you take comments out of context to build on. For example I say I support grazing and you quote where I said the grazing on that allotment should be shut down. Then you say my own words prove bla bla bla.

I don't suppose you can understand, but I'll try explain it to you. On pasture land that will take 50 acres per AUM I think grazing is ok. On 10 acres per AUM they should be grazing it. Now you will say what about 11 acres. Please don't get that stupid. On land that takes 320 acres no one should be grazing.

Do you remember that picture you posted of the overgrazing in Wyoming? Well that was perhaps 320 acres per AUM. Don't graze it. Remember I said capacity grazing. That's why those agencies have range specialists. Remember now they had those to help ranchers you said.

I didn't say I didn't read things gst. It's just that your propaganda isn't worth reading, especially when you post a dozen and they are half a page long. I suppose this will trigger your insanity and you will post another 14 posts with no responses. Why don't you try being worth talking to instead of thinking ranchers are perfect. Actually that would be bearable if it wasn't that you think if your not a rancher your crap.

Plainsman Said:
gst you take comments out of context to build on. For example I say I support grazing and you quote where I said the grazing on that allotment should be shut down. Then you say my own words prove bla bla bla.

I don't suppose you can understand, but I'll try explain it to you. On pasture land that will take 50 acres per AUM I think grazing is ok. On 10 acres per AUM they should be grazing it. Now you will say what about 11 acres. Please don't get that stupid. On land that takes 320 acres no one should be grazing.

Do you remember that picture you posted of the overgrazing in Wyoming? Well that was perhaps 320 acres per AUM.

How do you know this??? Do you have any proof of your claim? How do you know were that picture actually was? Perhaps it was a file picture of sheep on a holding area. What do you actually know about some picture you are using to defend your claims of when there should or should not be grazing.

Plasinamn how many cattle have been produced on these lands over the century plus these ranching families have been running cattle on them? Are you now claiming all these people that entered into an agreement with the govt for multiple usage of these lands are just screwed? You are starting to shed a little light on why someone would say screw the govt.

Don't graze it. Remember I said capacity grazing. That's why those agencies have range specialists. Remember now they had those to help ranchers you said.

And those "range specialist that were actually considering the range and not radical enviromental groups threats of law suits of Sen. and Chinese land developments had cattle grazing on the lands YOU claim there should be none. Are you a "range specialist" bruce??

"This has spread out into what looks like six different debatable things. So many and some posts so long I have not read them."

It's just that your propaganda isn't worth reading,Ah, the argument from page 2 of the liberal handbook, if you have no facts to dispute the information being provided and the information that has been provided has proven your claims to be so much bullshit, attack the information as propaganda and the person presenting it as an elitist.

What exactly was propaganda not worth reading Bruce? The articles that proved that the Feds killed cattle despite your claims that that statement was a lie?

The articles straight from the BLM website that proved what the BLM was originally started for despite your claims otherwise?

How about the article right from the BLM website that spoke about "regional mitigation despite your insistance that the distance made those claims bullshit.

You and ron seem to have the same problem bruce, if it is not something YOU believe to be fact, it can;t be fact.

especially when you post a dozen and they are half a page long. I suppose this will trigger your insanity and you will post another 14 posts with no responses. Why don't you try being worth talking to instead of thinking ranchers are perfect. Actually that would be bearable if it wasn't that you think if your not a rancher your crap.

Bruce have you provided one single link to any source of information so people can decide on their own what is fact and what is "propoganda??

A Brief History of Public Lands Grazing

During the era of homesteading, Western public rangelands were often overgrazed because of policies designed to promote the settlement of the West and a lack of understanding of these arid ecosystems. In response to requests from Western ranchers, Congress passed the Taylor Grazing Act of 1934 (named after Rep. Edward Taylor of Colorado), which led to the creation of grazing districts in which grazing use was apportioned and regulated. Under the Taylor Grazing Act, the first grazing district to be established was Wyoming Grazing District Number 1 on March 23, 1935. Secretary of the Interior Harold Ickes created a Division of Grazing within the Department to administer the grazing districts; this division later became the U.S. Grazing Service and was headquartered in Salt Lake City. In 1946, as a result of a government reorganization by the Truman Administration, the Grazing Service was merged with the General Land Office to become the Bureau of Land Management.

Sheep grazing near Worland, Wyoming, in 1940.

Plaisnamn said:
"Do you remember that picture you posted of the overgrazing in Wyoming? Well that was perhaps 320 acres per AUM. Don't graze it. Remember I said capacity grazing. That's why those agencies have range specialists. Remember now they had those to help ranchers you said" end quote

plainsman, here is the picture you reference. Drawing on all your "range land specialist" experience, please share with us why this picture represents overgrazing as you claim and how you determine it is 320 AUMs. ?

I hope the real "range land specialists" are a little better informed , a lot less biased and use a little better formula than you do before they end all grazing on these lands.

Bruce the BLM says this is 75 and 61 acres./ AUM land. It is located near Worland Wy. just as the land in the picture was.

according to you this land should not be used for grazing.

Plainsman Said:

Do you remember that picture you posted of the overgrazing in Wyoming? Well that was perhaps 320 acres per AUM. Don't graze it. Remember I said capacity grazing. That's why those agencies have range specialists. Remember now they had those to help ranchers you said.