skinsfan#33 wrote:Their records were very close for the first two seasons, but that is leaving out one VERY important part.

When Zorn was hired he took over a team that was a playoff team and that is reflected in the fact that the team went 6-2.

Half of his wins came in his first eight games and then he had a chance to turn the Skins into the laughing stock of the NFL. Yes he had a lot of help in that endeavor. Vinny was as much if not more responsible for the downward spiral!

Shanny took a 4-12 team that was the laughing stock of the NFL and four off seasons in he hasn't had a normal off season yet. His first was the year before the lockout and no first tern free agents were available. The next was the lock out, then the first of the two $18M cap hits, and then this last off season, the last of the cap penalty (hopefully). That is a lot of challenges and we are coming off of a play off appearance and a division title. In three seasons he was able to equal the number of playoff trips that the other five coaches (not named Joe Gibbs) made in 13 seasons. The only other guy to make it was Norv and he took six season to get there.

I would have to point out that this is selective memory, and not taking into account all of the pertinent facts.

First of all, this "Playoff team" for which Zorn inherited barely made it as a wild card in 2007, at a 9-7 record, and that only happened because Jason Campbell got injured. If you will recall, the Redskins were 5-7 coming into the Bears game, working on a 4 game losing streak in which Campbell, who for the first half continued to flounder and unable to move the ball on offense, mirroring the majority of his and the Redskins season up to that point, was injured just prior to half time. Miraculously, Todd Collins came in and immediately moved the ball and put two TDs on the board in little over 4 minutes, and won that game, as well as the next three. Collins finished these last 4 games with remarkable results, playing like a Pro Bowl QB, much to everyone's utter amazement. Had Campbell not been injured, the Redskins would probably not even reached 500. Of course this was following a putrid 5-11 in 2006, in which even the defense collapsed and could not carry the team. So the reality is, the team inherited by Zorn was a collective 14-18 over the 2006-2007 seasons, and had Campbell not been injured, that record would surely have been worse, and no chance for a 4 game win streak to eek into the playoffs in 2007.

When Zorn took over (and I say "took over" in a very loose sense of the meaning) what he was actually taking over was a losing proposition .. a project doomed from the conception ... he was brought in to make Jason Campbell successful, because the Redskin FO was still not willing to face the glaring reality that Campbell was a complete, unworkable bust ... much like many fans on this board continued to the bitter end, in spite of Campbell amateurishly failing to master the basic fundamentals of the QB position, and continuing to make the same mistakes, game in and game out, with each new year supposing to be his magical "breakout season" that never materialized. In spite of that, Zorn did go 6-2 starting the 08 season and the Zorn pick looked to be a genius maneuver, until Portis (who was leading the league in rushing and tearing it up each week) and the O-line got hammered with injuries. Without Portis carrying the offense, much like he did in 2005, and with the ball and the fortunes of the Redskins (and ultimately Zorn) placed in Jason Campbell's hands, the inevitable occurred. They went on a downward slide, unable to put any sort of professional offensive production up. This extended to the 2009 season as well, and to be quite honest, Zorn was doomed from day one. His fortunes were tied directly to Jason Campbell, and being a Rookie Coach, there was no way he could have been expected to survive that type of albatross around his neck.

What was THE FIRST THING Shanahan did as the big cheese in charge? He got rid of Jason Campbell ... and yet, even with McNabb ... who by any measure is and was leaps and bounds superior to Campbell, Shanahan didn't fare any better than Zorn in his first 16 games, even with a superior QB that Mike selected himself.

The next big 2 questions are:

1) what might Zorn have accomplished with RG3, had he not been saddled with a very poor performer such as Jason Campbell ?

and

2) what would Shanahan have accomplished last season, had the Browns acted more aggressively and attained the rights to RG3, leaving the Redskins to go into the season with Rex Grossman as the QB ? Of worse yet ... maybe without RG3 the Redskins might have opted for a trade to get another one of the Kevin Kolbs or Matt Flynn's ?

Truthfully, Zorn and Shanahan cannot be honestly compared .... with Shanahan having decades of experience and a solid reputation and free reign over the roster, while Zorn was selected to implement whatever Danny/Vinny had in mind, while having no control whatsoever over anything himself.

Lotta truth from Ray. OTOH I doubted Zorn even having a true play book the day he was hired. I also recall his "system" having no audibles and his calls not having protections. JC had to decide on them at the line leading to many delay of game flags and the like. It was amateur hour.

RayNAustin wrote: ... Truthfully, Zorn and Shanahan cannot be honestly compared .... with Shanahan having decades of experience and a solid reputation and free reign over the roster, while Zorn was selected to implement whatever Danny/Vinny had in mind, while having no control whatsoever over anything.

you're exactly right and I also agree about Campbell - he just did not have what it takes to be a decent, let alone good, QB

the Redskins need a GM and HC that have the authority and support of the owner like most other NFL franchises

skinsfan#33 wrote:Their records were very close for the first two seasons, but that is leaving out one VERY important part.

When Zorn was hired he took over a team that was a playoff team and that is reflected in the fact that the team went 6-2.

Half of his wins came in his first eight games and then he had a chance to turn the Skins into the laughing stock of the NFL. Yes he had a lot of help in that endeavor. Vinny was as much if not more responsible for the downward spiral!

Shanny took a 4-12 team that was the laughing stock of the NFL and four off seasons in he hasn't had a normal off season yet. His first was the year before the lockout and no first tern free agents were available. The next was the lock out, then the first of the two $18M cap hits, and then this last off season, the last of the cap penalty (hopefully). That is a lot of challenges and we are coming off of a play off appearance and a division title. In three seasons he was able to equal the number of playoff trips that the other five coaches (not named Joe Gibbs) made in 13 seasons. The only other guy to make it was Norv and he took six season to get there.

I would have to point out that this is selective memory, and not taking into account all of the pertinent facts.

First of all, this "Playoff team" for which Zorn inherited barely made it as a wild card in 2007, at a 9-7 record, and that only happened because Jason Campbell got injured. If you will recall, the Redskins were 5-7 coming into the Bears game, working on a 4 game losing streak in which Campbell, who for the first half continued to flounder and unable to move the ball on offense, mirroring the majority of his and the Redskins season up to that point, was injured just prior to half time. Miraculously, Todd Collins came in and immediately moved the ball and put two TDs on the board in little over 4 minutes, and won that game, as well as the next three. Collins finished these last 4 games with remarkable results, playing like a Pro Bowl QB, much to everyone's utter amazement. Had Campbell not been injured, the Redskins would probably not even reached 500. Of course this was following a putrid 5-11 in 2006, in which even the defense collapsed and could not carry the team. So the reality is, the team inherited by Zorn was a collective 14-18 over the 2006-2007 seasons, and had Campbell not been injured, that record would surely have been worse, and no chance for a 4 game win streak to eek into the playoffs in 2007.

When Zorn took over (and I say "took over" in a very loose sense of the meaning) what he was actually taking over was a losing proposition .. a project doomed from the conception ... he was brought in to make Jason Campbell successful, because the Redskin FO was still not willing to face the glaring reality that Campbell was a complete, unworkable bust ... much like many fans on this board continued to the bitter end, in spite of Campbell amateurishly failing to master the basic fundamentals of the QB position, and continuing to make the same mistakes, game in and game out, with each new year supposing to be his magical "breakout season" that never materialized. In spite of that, Zorn did go 6-2 starting the 08 season and the Zorn pick looked to be a genius maneuver, until Portis (who was leading the league in rushing and tearing it up each week) and the O-line got hammered with injuries. Without Portis carrying the offense, much like he did in 2005, and with the ball and the fortunes of the Redskins (and ultimately Zorn) placed in Jason Campbell's hands, the inevitable occurred. They went on a downward slide, unable to put any sort of professional offensive production up. This extended to the 2009 season as well, and to be quite honest, Zorn was doomed from day one. His fortunes were tied directly to Jason Campbell, and being a Rookie Coach, there was no way he could have been expected to survive that type of albatross around his neck.

What was THE FIRST THING Shanahan did as the big cheese in charge? He got rid of Jason Campbell ... and yet, even with McNabb ... who by any measure is and was leaps and bounds superior to Campbell, Shanahan didn't fare any better than Zorn in his first 16 games, even with a superior QB that Mike selected himself.

The next big 2 questions are:

1) what might Zorn have accomplished with RG3, had he not been saddled with a very poor performer such as Jason Campbell ?

and

2) what would Shanahan have accomplished last season, had the Browns acted more aggressively and attained the rights to RG3, leaving the Redskins to go into the season with Rex Grossman as the QB ? Of worse yet ... maybe without RG3 the Redskins might have opted for a trade to get another one of the Kevin Kolbs or Matt Flynn's ?

Truthfully, Zorn and Shanahan cannot be honestly compared .... with Shanahan having decades of experience and a solid reputation and free reign over the roster, while Zorn was selected to implement whatever Danny/Vinny had in mind, while having no control whatsoever over anything himself.

So I have selective memory...
Well I guess you have revisionist memory...

Did the 2007 team make the playoffs? Yes! Was Todd Collins still an option for Zorn? Sure. So the plain simple fact is Zorn got a playoff team and MS got a 4-12 team.

Anyone that says that the team, while old, that Zorn inhertided wasn't infinately more talented than the one MS got form Zorn is in the need of a drug test.

Was Jason Campble one of the worst things Joe Gibbs ever did? Behind giving up a all of the draft picks he did for TJ "the tip toe burgler" Ducket? Sure.

What could have Zorn done with RGIII? Who knows but I bet he would have ruined him and he certainly wouldn't have been ROY.

The Browns are the Browns so there is really no point in going down the what if of them not screwing up. But I'll play your silly game, MS probably would have taken Tannehill in the first, or Kirk or Wilson in the third.

NO YOU CAN'T COMPARE ZORN AND MS!!! Any comparrison is silly and borderline retarded.

"Dovie'andi se tovya sagain"
(It is time to roll the dice) Tai'shar Manetheren

"Duty is heavier than a Mountain, Death is lighter than a feather" Tai'shar Malkier

Um, no. Like Ray said, Campbell was the ownership's choice for starter, and Zorn was brought in to turn him into a player. Not to mention that Collins experience was in Al Saunder's system, a fact that helped him immensely in his tenure at starter (though I suspect he still would have outplayed JC in Zorn's system too). There was very little difference in the players Zorn and Shanahan inherited, anyway. The difference is that Mike had the authority to make changes, and Jim didn't.

Um, no. Like Ray said, Campbell was the ownership's choice for starter, and Zorn was brought in to turn him into a player. Not to mention that Collins experience was in Al Saunder's system, a fact that helped him immensely in his tenure at starter (though I suspect he still would have outplayed JC in Zorn's system too). There was very little difference in the players Zorn and Shanahan inherited, anyway. The difference is that Mike had the authority to make changes, and Jim didn't.

Doyou you have any proof that Campbell was the choice of the owner?

No, No, you don't, because there isn't any.

JZ was brought in to be Jim Fassel's OC becausethat thatis is who he wanted, but the fan reaction to the rumor Fassel was going to be the HC made Snyder turn over coaching search to Vinny and punt on the plans to hire Fassel.

Saying the talent level of the players Zorn inherited was similar to what MS received is just laughable. Stopit it, my side hurts!

Granted they were getting old fast but Jim had MUCH more to work with than Mike had.

"Dovie'andi se tovya sagain"
(It is time to roll the dice) Tai'shar Manetheren

"Duty is heavier than a Mountain, Death is lighter than a feather" Tai'shar Malkier

Um, no. Like Ray said, Campbell was the ownership's choice for starter, and Zorn was brought in to turn him into a player. Not to mention that Collins experience was in Al Saunder's system, a fact that helped him immensely in his tenure at starter (though I suspect he still would have outplayed JC in Zorn's system too). There was very little difference in the players Zorn and Shanahan inherited, anyway. The difference is that Mike had the authority to make changes, and Jim didn't.

Doyou you have any proof that Campbell was the choice of the owner?

No, No, you don't, because there isn't any.

JZ was brought in to be Jim Fassel's OC becausethat thatis is who he wanted, but the fan reaction to the rumor Fassel was going to be the HC made Snyder turn over coaching search to Vinny and punt on the plans to hire Fassel.

Saying the talent level of the players Zorn inherited was similar to what MS received is just laughable. Stopit it, my side hurts!

Granted they were getting old fast but Jim had MUCH more to work with than Mike had.

What you say about Fassel is true, but that has absolutely nothing to do wi JC being the FO's choice for starter, which he was. You also totally ignored my point about TC having been in Saunders' system for 10 years.

What's laughable is your claim that the team Mike inherited just two years later was much different than the one Zorn got? Please enlighten us with all the different players between the two.

Well, I can compare a rowboat to the battleship New Jersey, so I guess a "sports writer" can compare a losing head cvoach to one who has assembled and coached a playoff team. It would be silly to suggest that Zorn is as good as Shanny, of course.

Another comparison: Joe Gibbs led what would become Zorn's team to an end-season win streak and the playoffs. Zorn led the same players down a rabbit-hole. In comparison, Joe Gibbs appears to be a "plus-plus coach". Zorn was a "minus coach".

RayNAustin wrote: ... Truthfully, Zorn and Shanahan cannot be honestly compared .... with Shanahan having decades of experience and a solid reputation and free reign over the roster, while Zorn was selected to implement whatever Danny/Vinny had in mind, while having no control whatsoever over anything.

you're exactly right and I also agree about Campbell - he just did not have what it takes to be a decent, let alone good, QB

I don't think that's a fair assessment at all. Campbell has been a "decent" QB at times in his career. He was "decent" with the Raiders before he got injured. He's been "decent" enough to last in the league for seven years, and I won't be surprised at all to see him starting in Cleveland at some point this year.

I think what Campbell clearly wasn't was a first round franchise QB. He was a big disappointment here in Washington, and rightly so, because that was the expectation.