What we decided in the end: Chris' tumblr website (http://forestcafe.tumblr.com/) will go up at forest.org.uk right now as an interim measure. People will continue to work on a drupal-based website with the intention of replacing the tumblr site with something better when it's ready.

I guess Chris is action-pointed to get the tumblr site ready to go live, talk to the people who'll need to be posting to the site and show them how, start curating the site and getting good stuff going up there, getting other people putting good stuff up there, etc.

Milk, Joachim, Mike, Timo and Gio all expressed interest in working on the technical backend of the future drupal site. Chris agreed to give input to the front-end design of the site. I think Stevie is also interested in being involved with the design. Jane does not want to go to drupal design meetings but would send content for a drupal site. Chombee does not want to work on drupal but after June 1st would be available to transfer content from tumblr to drupal if the drupal site were going to go live.

I'm really happy with this outcome. Tumblr can go live right now and people can get to work getting good content on it. At the same time, the drupal work is sounding promising. There's a lot of input to go into the drupal design process, a number of people have expressed their visions and designs for the site in this meeting and on the bb, a number of detailed mockups have been made and posted, several people have expressed interest in working on it, we may see great things from drupal in the not too distant future. Also, I'm really relieved that we came to an agreement on this issue. Great work everyone, especially thanks to Scout for a great job facilitating.

The minutes in detail:

(Minuting a meeting like this is basically impossible and these are pretty hairy. I corrected most of the typos and grammar before I realised that that was taking all the fun out of it. Enjoy.)

What Features Does Our Ideal Website Have

- Jane, Stevie, Joachim and Milk talked before the computer is loaded for minuting

- Sean: doesn't want this to become a design by consensus meeting

- Stevie: Very frustrated by current website, doesn't understand it and too busy -- hard for new person to understand, so doesn't want a calendar that has everything in one place -- information overload - events, workshops, artist facilities - go to events and first thing you see is today's event - workshops: list of all the different workshop pages, which you can go to - too much to have it all in one news feed (compartmentalised chaos goo)

- Chris: Should look great and be easy for new users to navigate and update - should be designed by individual or small group of people working together -- if there are multiple designers, we choose one - content needs to be curated by Forest people so it looks exciting and fresh - site needs to be time proof: Joomla was good while Pogo was here but it was a mess after he left, and concern that the same thing will happen here if Drupal dudes leave

- Gareth: Forest is almost ten so there is a lot of experience in this room about how the Forest works and what it needs -- this debate has gone on for a long time already, which people need to understand - get rid of as much text as you can (people don't want to read big long texts) - video would be better (beautiful, artistic in three minutes) - more beautiful photos -- the whole website must be beautiful -- the website has never reflected the talented people in the forest - a blog element would be good because a lot of the internet is blog based and we need a really functional blog that will archive instantly - don't make it too big. it shouldn't become a monster again. we don't have to tell everyone everything. the point of forest isn't the website, it's what's happening within the forest -- give people a taste, and if they like it, they will come

- Gio: With Drupal we will get involved in the content issues and people will get training with the content management system

- Joachim: What is the relationship between design and content management?

- Milk: Agree that needs to be simple enough that someone doesn't need to sit down with you and show you how to post.- There is possibility to do this

- Joachim: Need events calendar or several calendars- need the website to tell people about what is going on at the Forest - spaces for the different groups who do things at the forest - more about facilities and events in a certain room - dynamic front page where you arrive and there is something new -- could be a splash of regularly changing artwork, but needs to go side by side with 'what's on this week' and what's happening now at forest

- Sean: Agree with Gareth and think his mock-up is really good - Keep it simple -- not being simple has always been the problem at Forest -- the lesson we need to learn- Website is for what is going to happen at Forest and what has happened -- things that are going on here- you need a paragraph or two of text about what it is, but that's all- then just need to know what is happening and what has happened to inspire people

- Milk: When you say 'what is happening and what has happened,' what vision do you have for layout? Contention about the river of news that exists at the moment... Do you have specific ideas?

- Sean: I'm happy with just a blog. I think keep it simple and the content is most important. The task isn't to make a good implementation. The task is for the curators to give us good stuff.

-Milk: when you say blog, how do you mean it should be different than the blog at the moment?

- Sean and Milk back and forth...

- Stevie: Problem is the most recently posted item is the first thing you see, and need this to be ordered. Need to see today's event first. Again, workshops will have a page and then you go to each individual page. Same thing with artist facilities.

- Joachim: Something like that is simple to use and complicated to build. Huge difference between building the site and using it.

- Chris: If site is well curated then it isn't just random stuff that comes up

- Timo: Most important thing is that front page is beautiful and artistic and first impression is important. But, it has to have other information that is concentrated and easy to read. Also need to be flexible, so that if people are interested in the topic they can read more text.- Filters so that we can display certain kinds of news with short info, but if people are interested, they can click and see more content.

- Alex: Front page with logo on it. click and then what's happening and then symbols for each project, and then click again and go deeper into the topic.

- David: Like Alex's idea but needs to be artistic and beautiful. Needs to functional and easy for people who aren't technically minded. What the Forest can be categorised into they can find out but they aren't bombarded by info at the outset. It should be beautiful and artistic, not overly elaborate as the first thing people experience- workshops, working groups, gallery should be subcategorised

- Scout sums up what has been said

- Sean: I didn't come for a design meeting, can we get to the point of the meeting...

- discussion between Stevie and Milk about barred website

What the Hell are we Doing Here

- Sean: some people here propose to begin by coming up together with a design and then going away and doing it in Drupal -- that's fine. but i'm not interested. - There is a Drupal camp and Tumblr camp. I want a compromise in this meeting that allows us each to go away and do what we want to do - Would like to put the Tumblr site up and let Drupal go on a different url

- Joachim: What do you want to accomplish with Tumblr? What part of the vision do you accomplish?

- several: It looks good. Stuff is done.

- Joachim: What is the point of working on Drupal at the same time?

- Milk: We're looking to have separate sections for different groups and this isn't mutually exclusive to having a Tumblr like section on the front of the website

- Stevie: A lot of stuff needs to be on the website. Tumblr needs to be able to do that if that's what we're going to use. I want this meeting to come out with an idea of how to put all the stuff currently working on whatever the result is.

- Jane: Already trying to approach people for the tenth birthday so I want by the first of April a site we can take people to. I want a deadline.

- Gino: Allocate specific tasks that Drupal and Tumblr will be doing.

- Shannon: deadline on timescale. website needs to be able to continue after the current group of techies leaves.

CONSENSUS: We agree that it needs to be done quickly because of the urgency of the festival.

Proposal: April 1st deadline.

Jane: options

1. drupal with no deadline (as long as it needs for perfect website)2. drupal with firm deadline for when everyone is happy with site, whilst switching to tumblr in meantime3. drupal with short, firm deadline4. switch to tumblr or something else full stop

Sean: 5. only use Drupal for the stuff Tumblr can't do

- Mike: We need your help if Drupal is ever going to look beautiful. We can make the back end good and easy, but we need your help otherwise.

- Gino: Need to decide Tumblr or Drupal today.

- Gareth: The Tumblr people like Tumblr because it's good for posting events. The Forest works with working groups, some of whom have their own website. It's like the events team will have their own blog website and they will choose to use Tumblr. Not impossible to combine with Drupal. The events hosting team do not want to get involved in the other side.

- Milk: As far as I'm aware, none of you have actually been involved with events or promotions. The people doing it now are using the Drupal site.

- Lynn:EVS people are not happy with using Dupal. It's too complex.

- Gino: Gareth is right that you can have two concurrent systems. It can be done. But I don't know what kind of development the Tumblr guys will be doing -- need to allocate tasks on a sequential basis, so we know exactly what is going on.

- Alex: If we use Drupal, can we make it so every volunteer can post things and will that be easy to use.

- some people getting very upset in the room...

- Milk: I didn't know people were having problems with posting. I'm always happy to help.

Scout: restates proposals

Joachim: Understand the frustration with current website. But you're barking up the wrong tree with Tumblr. Some reasons for this (which I missed)

- Gino: Complexities and issues will arise if we try to use the two systems concurrently.

- Milk: Agree with Jane that the extreme proposals are uninviting. Do we go with Tumblr as a stop gap, or do we get blog part of Drupal working as well as Tumblr by April 1st. But I don't see the point of using Tumblr for a month when we can get Drupal doing the same thing and better.

- Sean: To be honest, I don't think you can do it. I don't think it's going to work, but I could be proven wrong. In terms of the two systems stepping on each others toes, we need clear guidelines of who does what.

- Jane: if we went with Gareth's idea, all tumblr would be doing would be the events list.

- Gareth: We already have different sites and it's not that bad. Forest is spit into different groups and sometimes they want more autonomy.

- Milk: Frustration that when other sites were launched no one ever approached me to see if Drupal could do the things needed

- Sean: Agree that if we had a custom site designed by our programmers it would be better. But I think we should use Tumblr now and switch when it's ready and everyone is happy. And in terms of other groups making their own sites, people just did not want to use the current site.

- Mike: Leaning towards giving Drupal a deadline to make it beautiful. But I don't think we're going to come to agreement that we'll all be happy with and I'm not going to fuss around anymore. I'm not going to be part of this.

- Joachim: I do understand the other side and you want something that looks good and is simple, and I do think it's doable with Drupal. Tumblr is barking up the wrong tree.

- Chris: We have five external sites currently. And then Tumblr does events. And then Drupal does the front page that aggregates and fires you off into external sites.

- Shannon and Lynn: What happens if the Drupal crew goes?

- Milk: Drupal is not going away. It is an easy to learn system. There is a difference between setting up the back end and having someone curating it. The worry would be not having someone to create the content.

- Joachim: The difference is between building it and using it. We could still post photos to Facebook if they all died tomorrow. Drupal is extremely popular system. There are lots of Drupal developers out there.

- Sean: Need to think of a way for you to keep working with Drupal and others to still use what they want.

- Gino: Agree with you Tumbling along while we just do something and get something working with a deadline. Proof is in the pudding.

- Milk: What does Tumblr do, despite Drupal not looking so good right now?

garteth; *explains how the forest works, the WG, the projects (publishing, etc). getting events out is good. having an easy to use, achirvable event website is desired.

joachim; tumblr can't do these things.

Proposal: events group use tumblr to post what is happening as a blog. Proposal: switch to tumblr now and use it until we are happy with drupal

Milk: this can be done by april 1st. Drupal can be running a blog which runs as well as tumblr.

Sean: content is the biggest priority. Milk: the content is an aside, it is an HR problem not an IT problemSean: start with something inspiring and people will come to be part of itShannon: this was maybe unfair to milk - no one has helped him with it for years and he didn't want to be a designeralex: people organising things would not go to the website people as their first port of call. it means the website people will have to go to the website people and not the other way round.milk: this is what the EVS people are doing

sean: why not concentrate drupal on what tumblr can't do?

Chris: isn't it a waste of time to concentrate on getting drupal to do what tumblr already does?JANE: Problem is people don't want to work with website as they don't like how it looksMlk: It's not the big issueOthers: Yes it isMilk: Getting same ease of use for Drupal is going to take 2/3 weeks, and there's things beyond that Sean: Problem with Drupal is desn't have ease of use and nice appearance. People want to get it to that stage. Recap of proposals. Either way can make a more firm decision in the future.Jaochim:Finds it weird that people don't want to use the drupal site because of its design. Others: That's why.Jane: Big division is visual attraction, some think it's okay, some thinks it's not.David: how quickly can it look good?Milk: 2/3 weeks to get blog, and layout. Only difference i there's more links down side in tumblr.David: Would we be happy to give Milk 2 weeks to see if it can look awesome.Jane: If it doesn't happen, then what?David: If there are problems, then go to tumblr. Guys have put a lot of work into making drupal work, can we give them 2/3 weeks to try it out?Sean: Would be okay with that proposal, when revisiting discuss same list of compromises.David: YES!Milk: can see point making if no change is seen after this 2/3 week period. Milk can't do it, but there's a strong enough group to make it happen. Gino: So, you want drupal to redesign existing website. David: Various people with the way website looks at the moment. If you're confident you can do it uickly....Scout : Covering same ground again, let's move on. Then propose.Joachim: We need people to give help with the design.Shannon; Shut the fuck up. We're wasting last two hours if no-one does anything. Jane: Will write content but doesn't want to come to the meetings. Not if they go like this.Milk: Mail me content, I'll put it on the site.Gio: Development needs input of artist with techie stuff, pass things on to then place on website. Need people to contribute.Sean: If you can't program you can't make a website. Design and application is different, even in corporate ways. Sean's made it clear we're not interested in getting into drupal.milk: (sorry, missed this)sean: why do we have to use drupal for this all?milk: We can use CSS. It's not hard. You can ignore the PHP aspects.Chris: I designd current site base, about a year ago, tried to have a dialog about it and wasn't possible to come to a middle. Since then, there's this other stuff. Doesn't see why he should design another site when past efforst are wasted. happy to design a front page, but cn't commit to impliment. Doesn't undesrstand why use drupal to do what tumblr aready does.Milk: Already gone over what is god about drupal above tumblr.Gareth: We've got shitloads of ideas already. we cant design by concensus. Should be a smaller team to look at design.Milk: Just came up with list of designs gareth: yeah, but let's not have ANOTHER meeintg.Gino: Looking at current forest website, doesn't need any further design, can make it better with technical stuff.Gareth; Want something beautiful.Gino: We need input.Tim: Who is a designer? Scout: Many peoppleTim: I'm good at stuff.Jane: Need to make firm decision now about desgn too.Gareth: ..David; What' deadline for best looking website?cout: Already dicussed.Jane: 2weeks less, or smething in interim.David: If you can fix eisting drupal site to make it better, can get dsign input from people, can you put this together in a technical way? Sitting down with a designer, or two?gino: May end up with too many people.Scout: Repeating repeating repeating, move on.Milk: There's points. Fixing stuff without designing; or...Tim: Are we fixing existing or doing new one?Milk: Both!Tim: We need to agree. Started meeting about a dream ebpage. We need to focus. Tublr solution for managing event - not bad idea. Can try, if it doensn't ork out we move to Drupal.david: people advocating tumblr, can you get most beautiful website?Jane: Not as much, Chris did it in a day.David - Ha it got everything you need?Chris- Yes, basically. Everything.Sean: Put to proposals frward.jane: Use other in the interim.sean - and this would give drupal people a longer idea.Scout: This needs designers to work with drupalChris: YesJane: Will do wordsScout:PROPOSAL: Interim T website until T is ready to go. Stevie, Jane and Chris to help D people to make it look good.

Chris: it's been two years

sean will invent a programme that will pull out all the information - as if by magic! - once his thesis is done.

The artyfarty will help the technoparty and we will use the tumblr in the interim?is there any alternative proposal?

David: are the drupal people happy with this solution? Will they still want to help milk?

YES

SUM UP! we will switch to tumblr TODAY as an interim website the smart people who like to talk to computers will talk to them and make them awesome the designers stevie, jane and chris will help the computer people make the drupal site pretty when drupal is good we will switch

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I've had it with you. If I had an image of a laser gun I would absolutely position it right here in my hand...Ha! I have a real laser absolutely positioned in my hand!

i'm on that, just grabbing some stuff from the currently site first. the change will take several hours to propagate through the dns system before it changes what people see when they go to theforest.org.uk.

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hey, if you don't like it, post on the BB (so you can ask about participating for better) | MilkMiruku

In IE6, the pink right hand side bar gets shifted down to the bottom right of the page, according to one unfortunate IE6 user. But I don't have access to such an old browser, so I can't say what the CSS issue is exactly. And it is IE6. So it is more FYI than WTF.

neil: yeah i think your browser is caching an old version of the layout or something. cos at one point i had them different colours (cos my laptop colour is not too good and i didnt notice..)and the size of the top image was a bit out, like you've got it...

What the dillio, homeslice? Back in the day, there were only 216 colours that you could be sure all browsers would display the same. 216 is 6 cubed, so for each channel (red, green, blue), there could only be 6 possible values (00, 33, 66, 99, CC, FF). Use them, and you're good to go, homey Joe.

In fact, a screenshot of my browser shows that the loaded image is fc595b, even though the image opened in Gimp is fd595c. And if Linux is bugg'n, imaging how wacked Neil's Atari is.

Basically it's Apple's fault that you see the mismatch in this case. If you care about Safari users seeing this, then make the background of that box use a tiled 1 pixel image of the same colour, rather than an HTML colour code.

An alternative to the single pixel method is to have a transparent GIF for the logo and keep the pink CSS colour underneath. The attached image has dark corners and the Forest lettering in white and is transparent where the pink used to be. The advantage of this method is that you won't need to do anything if you decide to change the colour scheme.

You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

forget about the sidebar, its just the format of the text in the events listing i'm interested in.. its ripping the content out of the google calendars, reformatting, and changing the link text to actual links, looks ok on my firefox..

there are ones for workshops and meetings too..

this is not on the current website yet, just a dummy site...

cheers,

Chris xx

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Maybe it could work? But it will be a kaleidoscopic blend of mysterious shadows and rainbow hued-dreams seen through compassionate tears.