We live in the era of #metoo. In an era of #metoo, such headlines should be unacceptable. She turned him down, she embarrassed him. Not he stalked her, he grew more aggressive in has advances until she defended herself the only way she could, by publicly calling him out.

One of Pagourtzis’ classmates who died in the attack, Shana Fisher, “had 4 months of problems from this boy,” her mother, Sadie Rodriguez, wrote in a private message to the Los Angeles Times on Facebook. “He kept making advances on her and she repeatedly told him no.”

Pagourtzis continued to get more aggressive, and she finally stood up to him and embarrassed him in class, Rodriguez said. “A week later he opens fire on everyone he didn’t like,” she wrote. “Shana being the first one.”

Every teenaged girl in the country is going to get the message the asshole shooter sent: I’m gonna get really mad if you turn me down, and shoot up the whole classroom…and the LA Times will shame you.

This is going to fit in really well with the new Incel Agenda and Forced Monogamy plan.

Related

Comments

I remember reading bullshit youtube comments on the Isla vista killer’s channel. Lots of idiot guys saying, “See one of you girls should have taken one for the team.” All I could think was if some poor girl had of, he would have abused and murdered her.

Now, of course if a girl does date said boy and is hurt, people will tell her she should have known better.
You know, every guy who turns violent after being rejected proves why the girl/woman was right to reject him in the first place.

If “guns don’t kill people, people kill people”, then it follows that list should include banning people. After all the obvious aim is to protect guns. Firearms are so vulnerable and innocent, the poor things

You left off backpacks. (How a kid gets to school and back these days without a backpack is beyond me.)

Perhaps instead of books or portable computers, schools should hand out Kevlar gear.

Given the long standing White people/Evangelical/Republican agenda of crippling public education in America, perhaps they see doing nothing reasonable about gun violence as further justification to close all public schools to pour the money into vouchers for private schools and get back to the separate but unequal days of Jim Crow.

While I don’t think America is headed to an Atwoodian dystopia *quite* yet, if I was trying to write a plausible progression toward one, a newspaper shaming a stalking/murder victim for humiliating a poor lovestruck boy (as opposed to, say, “stalker turns deadly”) would be a great inclusion.

Not he stalked her, he grew more aggressive in has advances until she defended herself the only way she could, by publicly calling him out.

Have heard this and similar tweets about this incident saying, this is why women are afraid to come forward about sexual harassment. Sorry, but no. She did not “come forward” and calling him out in a class was to hurt and embarrass him was not the “only way she could” defend herself. How about speaking with the school counselor? What about talking with her parents and his parents? How about actual authorities? We have no way to tell how he would have responded to those responses, but ALL of them provide a better structure for a better resolution then what happened. She was a kid and responded in a very typical way for kids, doesn’t make it a good response or prevent us from trying to teach kids how to respond better. The boy killed a bunch of people, meaning this was not some horrible incident that pushed him to respond the way he did. It was simply another wrong his mental illness would not let him respond to appropriately.

Seems an ongoing issue where we cannot discuss appropriate and inappropriate behavior for victims of crimes, because it is labeled as “victim blaming”. That is bullshit. If someone is killed in a car accident we have no problem saying, they should have worn their seatbelt, they shouldn’t have been drinking, they should have been driving slower on a snowy road. Coming forward with sexual harassment or assault is ALWAYS the best response. Just like standing on a 20 in blackjack. I’m not talking about hindsight, I’m talking about looking at problems and saying, what is the best way to respond to give the best chance of not having that problem. When was the last time a school was shot up by a popular cheerleader? Or the class valedictorian? Never? Crime, and horrific tragedies like school shootings are not random happenstance. Like the concept of an objective morality based on rational thought, we can make judgements on the best course of action for any and all situations. This of course will not prevent all crime, or prevent every case of being a victim, but it sure as hell can be talked about and shared to make people who don’t know more aware on how to protect themselves. Teaching kids not to bully is probably going to do a hell of a lot more to prevent these tragedies than banning trench coats and reducing the number of doors into a school, and telling kids not to bully the psychopath is not victim blaming.

I want to live in the world you think you’re living in, where going to the authorities works out just fine for women and doesn’t make things even worse. Where people believe them instead of pooh-poohing their concerns. Where harassers are dealt with firmly instead of in mushy, inconclusive ways that leave them more dangerous than ever. A world where every rape kit is processed and acted upon. A world where support exists for victims.

How do I get to your world? Do I have to hit myself on the head with a blunt instrument?

You claim that the shooter was bullied into it, and not following due process by a girl who did not “come forward” in the process of calling him out therefore was the cause of the shooting. Right?

Teaching kids not to bully is probably going to do a hell of a lot more to prevent these tragedies than banning trench coats and reducing the number of doors into a school, and telling kids not to bully the psychopath is not victim blaming.

Um. If the fix is to tell kids not to bully the psychopath, it ineluctably follows that the problem is kids bullying the psychopath — which is a vague term too easily bandied about, and certainly prematurely-so here — not the easy access to guns by potential shooters. Perpetrator is much more descriptive and appropriate than psychopath.

(You do know violent crimes due to aggrieved pique are not the sole province of psychopaths, right?)

If someone is killed in a car accident we have no problem saying, they should have worn their seatbelt, they shouldn’t have been drinking, they should have been driving slower on a snowy road.

– Alice drives into a tree. You say “the tree should not have been in Alice’s path.” Everyone looks at you strangely (more than usual). We should not hold trees responsible for where they are located. You may be drawing attention away from Alice, who is a person and responsible for her actions (assuming she did anything wrong at all), whereas a tree is not like that. Snow is also not like that, alcohol’s chemical properties are not like that, etc.
– Alice is murdered by Bob. You say “Bob should not have murdered Alice.” That’s a very different story. Bob is a person. If you start telling me about Alice (also a person) and her lifetime full of mistakes, whatever those may have been like, then I will say those things are irrelevant. If you think there’s some more significant thing to be concerned about than Bob murdering Alice (she hurt his feelings, for instance), then you must be very confused, almost as much as in the tree example above.

Should we blame this on a particular woman, several women, all women, or perhaps every female, whether human, animal, insect, or plant?

Judging by what men seem to be saying, preferably every female, regardless of species, phylum, etc. Especially if she has even looked askance at a male before. Males just can’t help themselves; they must punish others for every slight, even only perceived ones.
Obviously /s.
Jeez, you might just think this toxic masculinity is as unfair to men as it is to women, just in different ways. I don’t want people to think I have no impulse control merely because I’m male.

It was simply another wrong his mental illness would not let him respond to appropriately.

And what mental illness would that be? Because I’m not actually aware of any mental illness that forces someone to plan and carry out an attack on a bunch of high schoolers, because one of the high schoolers hurt the attacker’s fee-fees.

How about speaking with the school counselor? What about talking with her parents and his parents? How about actual authorities?

Since she obviously did talk to her parents about it (unless they’ve got one hell of a good medium), why are you assuming that she didn’t also do all of these other things as well? In my personal experience (and the experience of a great many other people), talking to school authorities is at best completely useless, and frequently actively counter-productive.

Have heard this and similar tweets about this incident saying, this is why women are afraid to come forward about sexual harassment. Sorry, but no. She did not “come forward” and calling him out in a class was to hurt and embarrass him was not the “only way she could” defend herself. How about speaking with the school counselor? What about talking with her parents and his parents? How about actual authorities? We have no way to tell how he would have responded to those responses, but ALL of them provide a better structure for a better resolution then what happened. She was a kid and responded in a very typical way for kids, doesn’t make it a good response or prevent us from trying to teach kids how to respond better. The boy killed a bunch of people, meaning this was not some horrible incident that pushed him to respond the way he did. It was simply another wrong his mental illness would not let him respond to appropriately.

No.

If someone is bugging you over and over even though you have told them no several times, it’s fine to respond by telling them no in front of other people. She didn’t embarrass him. He embarrassed himself. You would only have a point if he asked her only one time (it would have to be politely though) and her response was to turn him down loudly in front of everyone. Of course even then that wouldn’t be to blame for his mass murder though.

The guy should have been respectful of her decision after the very first no. She is entirely blameless in this.

She was a kid and responded in a very typical way for kids, doesn’t make it a good response or prevent us from trying to teach kids how to respond better.

There was nothing wrong with her response. It is a fine and healthy way to respond to repeated pestering and ongoing harassment. I’m glad to hear she stood up for herself so instead of just taking his harassment. Are you seriously trying to pretend she hadn’t said no before and this was his very first time?

It was simply another wrong his mental illness would not let him respond to appropriately.

Holy fuck, paxoll, how wrong can you be?
Women and girls especially are not responsible for men’s and boy’s behaviour and wellbeing.
What lengths must a girl go before she is allowed to say “fuck off”?

I’m getting seriously tired of this (non)joke. Why can’t other men step up and take one for the team? Help a brother out and all that. Other men who know what rejection feels like should extend a hand (etc.) in sympathy.

I agree. We could start by teaching boys that repeatedly hitting on a girl who says “no” is bullying. You ask once. If you get a no, you’re done. Move on and leave her alone.

But humankind will die ouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut if guys don’t have the right to ask women 50.000 times! She could have changed her mind, why do you deprive women of agency????
(How am I doing?)
Nono, teaching boys, that won’t work. We have to teach girls. Tell them they must always be meek and friendly. If they absolutely must reject a guys advances (really, we need a discussion whether they should have the legal right to do that), they must do so as gracefully as possible. The 200th time as well as the first time.
Under no circumstances must a girl get annoyed or even angry. That’s just asking to be shot.

According to paxoll, should Shana Fisher have survived the killer’s rampage, one of the events that should have taken place afterwards was for someone to sit down with her and tell her she responded inappropriately to the guy who tried to murder her and murdered nine other people in her school.

Need to start keeping a running tally on how many people can misrepresent what I write and strawman me from a single post.

@ John Morales

You claim that the shooter was bullied into it, and not following due process by a girl who did not “come forward” in the process of calling him out therefore was the cause of the shooting. Right?

No, I didn’t say that was the cause of the shooting, I said

It was simply another wrong his mental illness would not let him respond to appropriately.

You do know violent crimes due to aggrieved pique are not the sole province of psychopaths, right?

Yes, it was a general statement not intended to speak directly to this shooter, nor represent every shooter.

@Kip T.W.
No rape kit will exist unless the victim comes forward. No authority can act without the victim coming forward. No one can believe a victim who doesn’t come forward. No one can offer support to a victim who doesn’t come forward. See a common thread here? Non of the problems you mentioned has anything to do with coming forward not being the correct first step. I will repeat the whole premise of my second paragraph. If you don’t acknowledge and speak about a problem, you cannot begin to fix it.

@Consciousness
Back to the old, telling criminals not to be criminals…How has that worked in curbing criminality? I never indicated fault in my analogy of a car accident, since that is a non issue when my point is looking at a problem and finding things to improved it. It doesn’t matter if the person was responsible or not, saying they should wear a seatbelt is addressing a specific problem. Could just as easily say, don’t walk around south chicago with a rolex, don’t leave valuable items in your car, don’t leave your home unlocked, or again for emphasis don’t bully people. Does it matter if the bullied person commits suicide, or goes on a shooting spree? No it doesn’t. But it is

@Vucodlak

I’m not actually aware of any mental illness that forces someone to plan and carry out an attack on a bunch of high schoolers

I didn’t say that. I did say

his mental illness would not let him respond to appropriately

So, now to answer your question about what mental illnesses can “cause people to not repond appropriately”, how about, histrionic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, depression, bipolar, psycopathy, schizophrenia, anti-social social personality disorder. Essentially the definition of a mental illness IS not responding appropriately. Apparently histrionic, and borderline seems a prerequisite for being on this forum.

@Saad

It is a fine and healthy way to respond to repeated pestering and ongoing harassment.

Yes, the solution to bullying is more bullying. Punch that bully in the nose. Sorry, but fuck your shitty opinion.

@Gijoel
Please point out anywhere where I said or implied that getting your feelings hurt WAS an excuse to murder people.

@Giliell

Women and girls especially are not responsible for men’s and boy’s behaviour and wellbeing.

Never said, or implied this.

What lengths must a girl go before she is allowed to say “fuck off”?

Didn’t say she couldn’t, what I DID say was

She was a kid and responded in a very typical way for kids, doesn’t make it a good response or prevent us from trying to teach kids how to respond better.

And if you disagree with my suggestions for a better response, and agree with Saad that what she did was a perfectly good response, then you can go “fuck off” because you are zero help to this problem.

@Dunc
Then lets talk about the failure of the parent/student communication where the seriousness of the matter was not realized. Lets talk about having competent counselors. Like I said in my response to Kip, you can’t identify where there are problems, if the victim doesn’t come forward and let people know. Let me highlight something I said,

We have no way to tell how he would have responded to those responses, but ALL of them provide a better structure for a better resolution then what happened.

Both you and Kip seem to know that which is not knowable, so why not describe the most likely bad outcome if she had gone to some authority with her problem.

@LykeX
Kudos for being the only person to not misrepresent what I said. I imagine that it would have been the likely course of events if the victim had come forward with the problem to some authority. I will reiterate though that this kid killed lots of people, so this was not his only problem, and one could only hope that in addressing this specific issue someone would have recognized a deeper pathology and gotten him help.

This attitude does not surprise me. It’s a symptom of the incredibly toxic messages we send to young straight men about the way sex and relationships should be viewed.

We in the gay community have been familiar with a related but reversed version of this for decades – the Gay Panic defence. Where, if a straight person thinks you’re making advances towards him, he is legally allowed to murder you. Fortunately that attitude has largely died out now. But the memory still lingers. LGBT+ people have been raised to be incredibly circumspect about making advances on others, and to take mere rejection as perhaps the best outcome we can expect.

I’m not saying we should raise straight boys with the same damaging repression I was raised with. Though, to be honest, that would be much better than raising them with the sense of aggrieved entitlement we currently do. There has to be a happy medium.

paxoll:
Don’t read the news much, eh? Do you have any idea how many thousands of rape kits sit in police departments, unprocessed? The women came forward. They stuck their neck out, and this is what they get, along with derision, doubt, and stigma.

Giliell:
Indeed, that’s how it works in movies, TV shows, comics, novels, and the letters to Penthouse. COULD ALL THESE UNBIASED SOURCES BE WRONG?

Back to the old, telling criminals not to be criminals…How has that worked in curbing criminality?

You don’t like people strawmanning you? Neither do I.

My own expressed thoughts are not intended to curb criminality, except perhaps to the extent that I personally don’t commit crimes. I think it is wrong to murder someone, and I think I would be morally responsible for it if I did.

Thinking this has worked quite well for me so far. I have a 100% lifetime success rate, when it comes to not murdering people. I should add that this is all while being embarrassed and bullied, as well as suffering from mental illness, being assaulted, not to mention much more mundane shit that life has thrown at me over the years. At best, your attempted explanation of murderous behavior is inadequate. At worst, you have not only a shitty explanation but also an even more shitty excuse/justification for the indefensible.

Anyway, there is no problem whatsoever with the simple claims that a murderer is responsible for committing murder, which is morally wrong. We have a variety of social institutions (not mere propositions), which are used to do the actual work of curbing criminality, protecting society, and so forth. Their effectiveness and propriety is certainly something I’d like to reform through more or less normal political processes, but that’s another matter. The point remains that none of this gives you any coherent reason to reject such propositions or to complain when people articulate them.

Could just as easily say, don’t walk around south chicago with a rolex, don’t leave valuable items in your car, don’t leave your home unlocked,

Is that actually what you tell them, when someone is robbed? “Don’t walk around south Chicago with a Rolex”? You’re an ass. Just felt like that had to be said.

But let me turn your earlier question back to you, so you can get a taste of how senseless it is: are such statements helping somehow, if people continue to steal watches? How has that worked in curbing criminality? Oh, it doesn’t, you say? Oh, I see. That must be bad news for you, right? Such a pity. It almost sounded as if you may have had a point.

or again for emphasis don’t bully people.

You have it backwards, if I understand the story correctly. She was not bullying him. He was harassing her for months. So your “advice” should go to the murderer, if anyone, although you have much more critical advice to offer in this case, such as “don’t murder people, even if they upset you.”

Does it matter if the bullied person commits suicide, or goes on a shooting spree? No it doesn’t. But it is

Is that actually what you tell them, when someone is robbed? “Don’t walk around south Chicago with a Rolex”? You’re an ass.

actually, what I am proposing in full is this; you see that they were robbed, you have the criminal say they saw a flashy watch, you come to the conclusion that wearing expensive things in a poor and crime ridden area increase the likelihood of being robbed, then you tell the victim and everyone, not to do that. Does it work? Yes, I bet most people in chicago don’t wear their rolex’s when walking around south chicago. As another example, just about everyone in every major town with a significant crime rate locks their car doors, and when people come from a small town where they don’t lock their doors telling them they should is not some kind of victim blaming bullshit.

It’s just like we see how bullying has led to mental illness and tragic consequences and we come to the conclusion, we should work to prevent bullying. EXACTLY like we should work to teach proper consent. There is not ONE single problem to address in any of these situations. The premise of the original post was that crazy men cause women to be afraid of saying no. What if he had harassed a dozen girls and been summarily rejected and his reasoning for his crime had NOTHING to do with her. It doesn’t change that guys need to be taught how to accept rejection, it doesn’t change that bullying is wrong, it doesn’t change that fucken gun control can minimize the damage of people who go on shooting sprees. What it DOES change is the validity of the original argument where his reasons were because of a romantic rejection. To look at this tragedy and ALL the problems that went into it, and come out and say the ONLY problem is a boy didn’t know how to accept no for an answer (or GUNS) and that is the only thing to talk about because everything else is victim blaming, is stupid and irresponsible. More information will come out as this goes to trial and we will have lots more problems revealed to talk about.

Male entitlement, violence, and gun culture are all symptoms of the same problem. It’s called toxic masculinity/patriarchy.

paxoll ~ where they don’t lock their doors telling them they should is not some kind of victim blaming bullshit.

Comparing peoples bodies and lives to vehicles and houses is a fallacious and noxious claim. How exactly should women lock their vaginas to prevent rape, or schoolchildren simply engage their force fields to repel the bullets? Telling people what they ‘should have done” to prevent random crimes is bullying and victim blaming nonsense.

So, now to answer your question about what mental illnesses can “cause people to not repond appropriately”, how about, histrionic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, depression, bipolar, psycopathy, schizophrenia, anti-social social personality disorder. Essentially the definition of a mental illness IS not responding appropriately. Apparently histrionic, and borderline seems a prerequisite for being on this forum.

…was a 3,000 word screed riddled with profanity, possibly consisting entirely of “go fuck yourself” repeated 1,000 times. I realize, however, that you would falsely attribute such a response to my mental illness when, in fact, it would all be down to the incontrovertible fact that you’re an ignorant fucking numpty, and I find your stupidity offensive. So below is my revised response, which I do hope will prove educational.

As I said, I am mentally ill, and have been for a long time. I have been depressed, sometimes suicidally so, for as far back as I can remember. I first seriously considered suicide at age 10 or 11, but I’d been depressed for a lot longer than that. I have also struggled with PTSD for essentially my entire life. I was in my early teens when my bipolar disorder first began to manifest. I have never been neurotypical and, between ADHD and other cognitive issues, school was largely a hellish slog for me.

Further, I was raised to believe that violence was the appropriate response to things that upset me, of which there were many. My home life was both abusive and neglectful. I was bullied regularly, because I was slow, awkward, and almost pathologically trusting as a child.

When I was in high school, I made some new friends. They were, not to put too fine a point on it, criminals. I had easy access to weapons of all kinds, including firearms. I carried a gun sometimes, as part of our activities.

Now I’m going to back up and say little more bit about my mental illness. You’re not entirely wrong when you say that mental illness can cause people to react differently than those without it would. When I’m manic all my worst traits are amplified. I’m more aggressive, impulsive, and volatile. I’m always kind of an asshole, but mania kicks it up a couple of notches.

What it doesn’t do is fundamentally change who I am. I might do stupid shit, like jump off an overpass (I thought it would be fun), but I’m not going to suddenly start believing that things like rape, or torture, or the mass murderer of innocents, are acceptable. I might try to goad someone into a fight, but I still understand that I shouldn’t. I might suddenly scream at someone who is, for example, honking in a parking lot for no goddamned reason, but I’m not going to ‘lose my mind’ and attack them.

Now, PTSD is a bit different, because I can be genuinely dangerous if I’m triggered. Once, when I was in the locker room in high school, a guy thought it would be funny to sneak up behind me and poke me on the ass just as I dropped my pants. Next thing I know, half the locker room is pulling me off of him. I had to ask a friend what had happened later.

He told me I’d suddenly started screaming bloody murder and chasing the poker around the room, apparently intent on killing him. To this day I remember none of what happened between the poke (and I’m not even sure I remember that) and being pulled off the guy. However, a few weeks before I’d spent several hours in the tender care of some local neo-Nazis who had, among other things, raped me with an object. It’s not hard to piece together why I was triggered.

You notice anything these stories have in common? None of them involve anything like elaborate planning or preparation. They all involve split-second decisions, impulsive reactions, or nearly mindless fight-or-flight responses. In spite of my violent personal history, mental illness, and easy access to guns I’ve never once shot anyone. I’ve never intentionally attempted to murder anyone.

Now, I’m sure you’ll say that some mental illnesses involve elaborate delusions, which is true, but if the shooter was so completely out-of-touch with reality, how is that no one noticed before he became violent? If he was so lost in his own little world that he thought his classmates were really reptillians or some such, why did he retreat and eventually surrender after the police arrive? Why did he spare people he liked?

The simplest explanation is not that Pagourtzis is ‘crazy.’ The simplest explanation is that he is entitled misogynistic fuckwit who thought that, if he couldn’t ‘have’ Shana Fisher, then she didn’t deserve to live. That’s vile, but it’s not insane. In fact, nothing in his behavior reads as insanity unless you’re bound and determined to ignore the obvious facts of the case.

you see that they were robbed, you have the criminal say they saw a flashy watch, you come to the conclusion that wearing expensive things in a poor and crime ridden area increase the likelihood of being robbed, then you tell the victim and everyone, not to do that

No, you tell them shit like that. I don’t think there’s a need to tell someone that their possessions may be stolen. Of course, if they had nothing, there would be nothing to steal. So why aren’t you suggesting that people stop owning property, since with it comes the risk of having their shit stolen?

Doesn’t matter. I have no clue how you think wearing a watch, in any location whatsoever, is supposed to be analogous to something like bullying (if that’s still your claim). The latter is morally wrong. That is the sense in which “you should not” do it, and that is why you may rightly tell others “don’t do it”: because it’s harmful to someone else. Wearing a watch does not have that kind of negative impact. If you think otherwise, you have to be very confused, and it’s apparently still confusion about what a watch-wearing person is morally responsible for vs. what a watch-stealing person is morally responsible for.

It’s simply not true that “both sides” are partly responsible in this case. One did something permissible and the other didn’t, notwithstanding your pathetic attempts to portray it as a balanced situation. Unless the trial turns into a total garbage fire, the conclusion will not be that this is some kind of a moral gray area. It just isn’t. And some people just don’t need your advice, re: how-not-to-be-murdered, because like it or not, what they were doing was okay.

In my previous comment, I gave you a brief rundown of my history and an overview of my mental illness. In particular, I’ve mentioned that I liked violence and possessed firearms. I also enjoy violent music, movies, and video games. I despised almost every aspect of school, and I had many bullies who I hated and feared. I was routinely embarrassed in public, and frequently rejected by girls. If we follow your ‘logic,’ then I should have attempted mass murder at some point. Yet, when I thought about it, the idea made me sick. Why?

For years I obsessed over that very question every time a shooting made the news. I thought about mass shootings constantly when I was in high school, though never in the sense of planning one. Columbine happened when I was a freshman. Everything I knew from the all the coverage and the angry ‘experts’ denouncing everything I liked said it was only a matter of time before I ‘exploded’ and killed a bunch of my peers. But… I really didn’t want to do it. I didn’t want kill anyone. Not my friends, not my bullies, not even the teachers and administrators who I considered my mortal enemies.

All these ‘experts’ were claiming it was essentially inevitable, though, and I was terrified. I hated the times I carried a gun, and I refused to even consider taking it to school. Still, I was worried that all those supposed ‘factors’ I kept hearing about would come together in some magical way, and I’d metamorphose into a mass murderer. The only difference between me and the Columbine shooters was the fact that I hadn’t done it yet, all these people kept saying. Hell, my own parents told the psychiatrist they took me too when I was 16 that they were afraid of me. I thought that was rich, since I had never raised a hand to them and was, in fact, utterly terrified of them on account of all the times they’d beaten me.

The best thing to do was to kill myself, I thought. Better that I die than become another school shooter. Obviously, I never committed either act. I did attempt suicide, but I never once gave serious consideration to shooting up a public place. Until very recently, I never understood why. The answer is in the question I always asked when I worried that I might be next: What right do I have to kill (fill in the blank with whoever you wish)?

I have a very low opinion of myself. It has given me a better understanding of my place in the world, I think, than many of those people with so-called ‘healthy self-esteem.’ There was never any danger of me believing I had the right to murder a bunch of people, because I can’t see myself as better than them. I can’t make myself believe that I am more deserving of, or entitled to, life than other human beings.

And that’s the key: Entitlement. Not mental illness. Not a personality disorder.* Not being bullied, or enjoying violent media, or being rejected. No, the problem is that every shooter has had such a high opinion of himself that he thinks he has the right to do whatever he wished with the lives of others. Pagourtzis is a particularly obvious example; Shana Fisher would not submit to him, so he decided to kill her, along anyone else he didn’t like. After all, they were of no use to him.

*Mental illnesses and personality disorders are two different things, by the way. When you conflate them, you’re only showcasing your ignorance.

rq All right, it was a pretty bad joke. But I do not feel obliged to support a man who was rejected by a woman for the sole reason that I happen to be a man too. Women know what rejection feels like too, you know, and not every man is my brother.

I was bullied mercilessly when I was a youth. Punching the bully in the nose once did not stop the bullying. Neither did speaking to my parents or the school authorities. The one time I did talk about my being bullied, I was punished. They dragged me and the bullies into school to the principal’s office and he told us, “because of the bullying I will cancel recess.” Of course I knew I would become the girl that caused recess to be cancelled so I begged him not to do that. Nothing else came of it and I was still bullied. You see the situation how the bullied can be punished for opening their mouth? ugh. This was about 37 years ago, and I don’t think times have changed that much. That girl could have told everyone about it, including the police or anyone else. Obviously her parents knew. And they would have made sure everyone else did, yet that young man wouldn’t stop his behaviour until she called him out. And then he shot her and a bunch of other people. How can this be her fault?

@Vucodlak
Thank you for proving my point. Just because you didn’t kill anyone, doesn’t mean your mental issues didn’t make you act inappropriately. And that is YOUR mental issues, not everyone experiences them the same and responds the same. Saying he doesn’t have mental illness because that’s not the way YOU behaved is stupid. That was the whole reason I made the point

Does it matter if the bullied person commits suicide, or goes on a shooting spree? No it doesn’t.

As for your statement

*Mental illnesses and personality disorders are two different things, by the way. When you conflate them, you’re only showcasing your ignorance.

Sorry, but no they aren’t. They are simply categories invented by psychologists in order to group the different forms of mental illness to make them easier to deal with in a clinical setting. Someone can have depression, caused by a depressed personality, a natural stressor, or a chemical imbalance from drugs or genetics. They all need different treatments, but they are all the same mental illness and have the same problems. If your response to this is to think, no mine is a real illness and is much worse then those other ones, than I hate to burst your bubble but you are wrong.

@Consciousness

I have no clue how you think wearing a watch, in any location whatsoever, is supposed to be analogous to something like bullying (if that’s still your claim).

Seriously worried about your comprehension, it feels like you really have to purposefully misunderstand what I’m saying. There is a problem. This problem involves two people. One is a victim and one the perpetrator. Now, saying the perpetrator shouldn’t do whatever they did, is pretty useless. So if you look at everything that lead up to that problem, you can find things to do to stop it from happening, or reduce the chance of it happening. You may think that

I don’t think there’s a need to tell someone that their possessions may be stolen.

but then wouldn’t you also think there is no need to tell people not to bully? or steal? or rape? What do you think stops more stranger rapes, women going out in groups, police driving around town, or teaching proper consent? Well it doesn’t really matter because they ALL help prevent rapes (arguably).

It’s simply not true that “both sides” are partly responsible in this case.

This is fundamental strawman that seems to be behind every persons remarks on this. Blame/responsibility has absolutely NOTHING to do with this. Imagine this exact same situation, but instead of a boy, it was a trans student who was bullied and took a gun to school and shot people. The CRIME is the same, the “responsibility” is the same, but no one here would treat it the same. This is about finding everything wrong that went into this tragedy and coming up with rational responses. We don’t at this time know if this boy’s misogynistic entitlement views had anything to do with him shooting up the school, but we know there are many factors going into it and we should be looking at fixing as many of them as we can to reduce the likelihood of it happening again.

@Giliel

Then he murders her, but paxoll thinks she’s the bully.

So if this was a trans student instead of a young boy, you would feel exactly the same thing? Bullies can be murdered. Go fuck yourself.

@Koshka
Exactly what do YOU think bullying is? Because in my book, both of those things are prime examples of bullying that happens often in highschool.

There is a problem. This problem involves two people. One is a victim and one the perpetrator. Now, saying the perpetrator shouldn’t do whatever they did, is pretty useless.

Why? Isn’t that in fact the only way to fix the problem? Even if the victim changes behavior, it has its effect by changing the perpetrator’s behavior in turn. Even if the perpetrator doesn’t attack this particular victim, if his circumstances haven’t changed, he’ll just attack the next person. The problem hasn’t been fixed unless we affect his behavior.
Now, we can disagree on the exact means of accomplishing this and which methods might work better than others, but the fact is we need to change the perpetrator’s behavior or the problem will remain.

Shorter Paxoll:
No matter how much a man bullies and sexually harasses a woman, publicly shaming the man for his actions is the real problem. If he kills her for it, it’s basically her fault. Seriously, fuck you, you misogynist piece of shit.

Just because you didn’t kill anyone, doesn’t mean your mental issues didn’t make you act inappropriately. And that is YOUR mental issues, not everyone experiences them the same and responds the same. Saying he doesn’t have mental illness because that’s not the way YOU behaved is stupid.

That’s not what I was saying, you lying jackass. I used myself as an example because I checked every box on the list you and other fools have created to blame everything except entitlement. By your “logic” I should have shot up my school. Obviously I didn’t, and I explained both the fact that the very idea made me ill, and why that was. Clearly I shouldn’t have wasted my time, because you remain as ignorant as ever.

I’ll say it again, because it’s really fucking important: It’s not, and has never been, about mental illness. Every time you decide to use the mentally ill as a scapegoat, innocent people get hurt. But hey, at least you don’t have to use your godsdamned brain. You get to say “well it could never be me or my normal, healthy child, because we’re not freaks and monsters,” the cops get awards for murdering ‘crazy’ people, and maybe one bright day you’ll be able to lock the lot of us away in dungeons again.

If your response to this is to think, no mine is a real illness and is much worse then those other ones, than I hate to burst your bubble but you are wrong.

No, my response is to think that I owe ignorant fucking numpties everywhere an apology; they don’t deserve to be placed in the same category as you.

Last things:
First- where did I say anything remotely like “mine is a real illness and is much worse then those other ones?” Nowhere. EVER. I don’t think like that, and I have zero tolerance for those who do.

Second- I don’t do evil shit because I’m mentally ill. I do evil shit because I’m not a good person. The same applies to every person with a mental illness, regardless of the illness.

So if this was a trans student instead of a young boy, you would feel exactly the same thing?

If that trans student had stalked and harassed a girl for months? Yes.
You have yet to provide evidence for the alleged “bullying”. And no, telling the guy to get lost isn’t bullying. If it were, the “go fuck yourself” you threw at me would mean that you are bullying me and that if I now went off to kill a bunch of people we should endlessly discuss how you made me do it. Seems a bit ridiculous, right?

Saying he doesn’t have mental illness because that’s not the way YOU behaved is stupid.

That’s not what I was saying, you lying jackass.

Hmm….yes you fucken did.

The best thing to do was to kill myself, I thought. Better that I die than become another school shooter. Obviously, I never committed either act. I did attempt suicide, but I never once gave serious consideration to shooting up a public place.

followed by,

And that’s the key: Entitlement. Not mental illness. Not a personality disorder.* Not being bullied, or enjoying violent media, or being rejected.

You flat out say that you behave wrongly due to mental illness in one sentence, and then have the fucken nerve to say his actions are not because of mental illness.

And thank you and Giliell for proving what I wrote to Consciousness since you make the EXACT same fucken strawman that this is about blame and shifting responsibility.

First- where did I say anything remotely like “mine is a real illness and is much worse then those other ones?” Nowhere. EVER. I don’t think like that, and I have zero tolerance for those who do.

I didn’t say you did. You fucken copied what I wrote, maybe you should try reading it. Now, why I would assume you might ” think, no mine is a real illness and is much worse then those other ones,” is because of the quote I was responding to in the first place

Mental illnesses and personality disorders are two different things, by the way. When you conflate them, you’re only showcasing your ignorance.

I don’t know about any other women in the audience, but I know it makes me feel *so* *much* *safer* to know that if I get raped, assaulted, or shot as a result of turning down some over-entitled yahoo (or even because someone else turned down some over-entitled yahoo), someone like paxoll will be right there… to tell me why I should be apologising to the person who harmed me for not being the perfect victim.

I just feel so much better now.

(PS: For those who are unaware, this is the thickest, darkest, and most vicious sarcasm.)

Exactly what do YOU think bullying is? Because in my book, both of those things are prime examples of bullying that happens often in highschool.

Then get a new book, because you have no fucking clue what bullying is.

Bullying is about repetition and power imbalance. Both of those things you think are bullying are not bullying by definition, but of course they can be part of bullying.

As Giliell asked for multiple times, provide evidence that the murder victim bullied the perpetrator. Because if you cannot do that, you clearly are engaged in victim blaming, inventing bad behavior by the victim that might not even exist.

So being mean to a person once isn’t bullying. So a whole classroom of kids can call a gay student a derogatory word and as long as each kid only says it once, no single one of them is a bully. Guess it turns into some meta or conglomerate bully? That is fucken ridiculous. Although I could use the fact he shot many students and admitted to sparing individuals he didn’t dislike to make that argument.

but of course they can be part of bullying.

So publicly embarrassing him wasn’t her being a bully, but being part of the overall meta bully? Guess what, people here bully, and I bully back. Doesn’t make it right and my bullying is not excused by being bullied. But like most people in that situation, I lose the capacity to care about bullies making it easier to bully them in return.