thats all great. what are you quoting me for? are you trying to say only 1500 players take CnD at all? LOL. sure its comp dependent but its like 70-30 for CnD atm. thats along way from 'useless', how you use it is what changes between good and bad players.

Stop posting that Rogue X could CS you're team then come back and kill someone all in a subterfuge or whatever...those CS cost energy, so CS a few people pop back to original target and.....wait....for....energy.....CnD was fine maybe lessen it to 22-25yds due to latency, Subterfuge is slightly OP tho. Should fix it by unstealthing the rogue but allowing stealthed abilities.

Stop posting that Rogue X could CS you're team then come back and kill someone all in a subterfuge or whatever...those CS cost energy, so CS a few people pop back to original target and.....wait....for....energy.....CnD was fine maybe lessen it to 22-25yds due to latency, Subterfuge is slightly OP tho. Should fix it by unstealthing the rogue but allowing stealthed abilities.

Stop posting that Rogue X could CS you're team then come back and kill someone all in a subterfuge or whatever...those CS cost energy, so CS a few people pop back to original target and.....wait....for....energy.....CnD was fine maybe lessen it to 22-25yds due to latency, Subterfuge is slightly OP tho. Should fix it by unstealthing the rogue but allowing stealthed abilities.

I agree with your subterfuge change.

But CnD is an utterly stupid talent simply because it's unbalancable in it's 5.2 form. Imagine if every time a warrior cast avatar, he would get auto-charged to your location no matter where you went. Would that be fair? NO. And this wasn't either. And shadow dance is in fact a more powerful burst cd than avatar.

Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang

"I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"

But CnD is an utterly stupid talent simply because it's unbalancable in it's 5.2 form. Imagine if every time a warrior cast avatar, he would get auto-charged to your location no matter where you went. Would that be fair? NO. And this wasn't either. And shadow dance is in fact a more powerful burst cd than avatar.

stop comparing us to a class that has a baseline gap closer cause we dont have one. ( inb4 he says sprint is one, its not )

edit: actually he gave me great idea, make shadowstep baseline and make the current mobility tier about shadowstep. reduced cooldown, 2 charges and a improved one that breaks roots.

Since it's clear you didn't get me: rets aren't just soloable in world pvp in 5.2, they will die in the first cheap shot just like any class. If they pop a bubble they will now die in the second cheap shot instead of the first.

Actually rogues in this topic get in rage not because pally buble but because of that minor glyph
Anyway do some of you trying something like another spec in pvp go Assassination and you wont give a copper for CnD

But CnD is an utterly stupid talent simply because it's unbalancable in it's 5.2 form. Imagine if every time a warrior cast avatar, he would get auto-charged to your location no matter where you went. Would that be fair? NO. And this wasn't either. And shadow dance is in fact a more powerful burst cd than avatar.

The difference is, if a warrior auto-charged on his avatar attacks you wouldn't stand a chance because you're already pressured from the warrior outside of his CDs, where as the rogue exerts no pressure at all. CnD isn't the problem, it's eviscerate crits scoring the kills. With 33% reduction on dance ARP and general pvp power nerfs, rogue burst is already nerfed heavily but if these changes go live they'll have much less pressure during dance.

The most OP spec in the history of the game would be Rets. Rets have been buffed continuously since 2.01 and still, after all these years, retain their Bubble, Lay On Hands and BoF which they can still abuse in world PvP in addition to having the longest stun in the game.

They are still not solo-able in World PvP (maybe other Paladin specs are not soloable too) after all these years, and still, after all these years, do require a healer to take down and maybe an additional DPS as you still have to contend with a spec with unlimited resources, plate armor, and two health bars (through the use of Lay On Hands) so in essence, you have got to do to them twice or maybe three times the damage you would need to do to another player of a different class.

Compare all the above with a Rogue, the squishiest and least-played leather wearing class in the game, and you see how biased you are.

Huh what the hell. Honestly a learn to play issue... nobody in their right mind thinks Ret is in a good spot right now. Whatever you're on, please share... Ret is barely taken to SOME 3's teams and is never taken to RBG's unless you know the leader or are Vanguards.

Also: A rogue with elusiveness takes less damage than a Ret Paladin does, and has more defensive CD's. Bubble doesn't do crap anymore unless you have a healer, as flash heals yourself for like 30-35k. And... you can't bubble and LoH in the same fight unless your opponent sucks and takes a minute to kill you.