Which ever way you look at it, the new windows 7 is a good thing. Keeps the OS ball moving...

If they'd released another Vista, why would Leopard need to change? If they had to copy Apple then so be it...

Apple have never needed anything done by M$ or anyone else as motivation to improve. Apple is driven by a desire to design and create better products from within. That is what sets them apart form the rest.

From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've owned them all.Long on AAPL so biased"Google doesn't sell you anything, Google just sells you!"

As opposed to Apple which is a fascist party - all they do is dictate what people can do with their OS (which g can only be put on their glossy-screened, shiny hardware)

OS X? - based on BSD.. bunch of copy-cats! Oh no wait, I forget, Apple is allowed to copy, because Apple spells copy: i-n-n-o-v-a-t-i-o-n

Get over yourselves. MS saw which parts of OS X are effective and employed those - like every other company does. IMHO Win7 window management is better than on OS X, being able to enlarge windows from every corner, and the new Win7 drag-to-extents feature.

It matters not, what some guy at Microsoft says about Apple or anything else. Some people would have you believe that comments from managers at Microsoft would have some influence, but they have zero influence really.

Both Windows 7 and OS X are very good pieces of software. But one big thing MS lacks and that they will never really have is the total computing experience. Apple builds the hardware, the operating system and many of the applications for a total user experience.

.

While I agree to some extent with the "end", user experience.
There was a time when everything was made in the USA. Add to that that the user base at the time were mostly "Creatives", this is no longer the case. Does it take away from thus experience? No, but Apple has become a company that cares mote about it's iLife and iPhone user base, having everything built in China, and doesn't really care about the Pro creatives anymore. Now add that Apple refuses to give both the Prosume and Pro a moderatly priced machine that can do creative jobs on a pro level without having to spend $3000, is a slap in the face to the Pros that carried them for all those years, pre iPhone. Not only that, a few years back it was reported on one of the cheaper MacBooks you could run motion and OpenGL benchmarked at 171% (you still couldn't play games though), apple released a GPu update making it impossible to run motion and the benchmark dropped all the way down to 70%. I see that as Apple saying no to the pros, a slap in the face if you will which is why you next saw a better GPU but no FireWire. Again, just Apples way of keeping the pro from having any type of backup machine not to mention all the gamers, semi pros, Prosumers that cannot afford a desktop made out of server parts.

It's just not cool. Apple should be reaching out to a huge chunk of marketshare that they simple ignore.

Apple have never needed anything done by M$ or anyone else as motivation to improve. Apple is driven by a desire to design and create better products from within. That is what sets them apart form the rest.

As much as I'm an apple fan.. I don't think apple created the Computer, the Music Player, or the Phone.. They took someone else's ideas and made them better.

Standing on the shoulders of giants is what gives us everything that makes our lives easier and more enjoyable. There's nothing wrong with that!

I just got back - I had an extremely difficult problem to solve at the office.
Here we go again - yet another thread of MS bashing and for what reason? Why don't you leave them be as they don't compete in the "premium" market anyway which Apple owns. Do they? WE all know Apple's never gonna crush them- right?

Considering that Windows 7 already has reached OSX worldwide share - 4% is right number for OSX worldwide, I believe? - I'd say MS and Win7 future is more than safe at this point...

Though I have yet to hear of a single XBox suffering from screeching/failing hard drives, exploding batteries, or completely erased partitions... all of which have a far greater impact on a user's productivity than a malfunctioning game console.

OK, I'm putting on my asbestos suit because of all the flames that will follow.

I think the guy is right. There, I said it.

For an organization with the R&D resources of MSFT, it is a crying shame how little they innovate. In contrast, Apple takes a fraction of that budget and innovates like crazy. Does MSFT steal from Apple - ABSOLUTELY! It's actually shameful that as rich a company as MSFT can't bring themselves to do something creative but must rely on ripping off other companies.

That said, I think Win 7 is a winner for MSFT. Some think it is now very close between SL and Win7 (Mossberg). And I agree - in fact, I think MSFT took many Apple ideas and actually improved upon them. They still don't have a UI and experience as integrated and smooth as Apple, but they are very close. And sorry if the truth hurts, but so far, Win 7 has been much more stable than SL. If you cannot acknowledge the multiple problems with SL, you are just a fanboi. Truth is, Win 7 didn't even have as disastrous a bug as the guest account one. There are still things in SL that are vastly superior - the whole virus and malware and activation nightmare - but it is true that Win 7 is rock solid - and SL is undercooked. SL is not fully baked. And tragically, that was to be expected and will only get worse in the future - Apple OS will continue to sink and Win will continue to get better... because MSFT eats, sleeps, breathes OPERATING SYSTEM - they are a software computer company first and foremost. Apple is a hardware company - and not even mostly a computer hardware company... their priorities are going toward the whole iPhone and mobile platforms. It's no longer Apple Computers - officially. MSFT on the other hand lives and dies OS. Just look at the whole Leopard debacle - Apple had to admit they were late to the market and missed deadlines on Leopard development because they pulled their developers to work on the iPhone. Apple by percentage is making a smaller and smaller slice of their earnings from computers and more from gadgets like ipods, iphone, itablet etc. Frankly SL was a vast disappointment - working worse for many users that even the horrible Leopard. Tiger was the last decent OS Apple put out. It's all downhill from here - as Apple loses interest in developing an operating system, while MSFT races ahead. I wish it weren't so - I'll sooner switch to Linux, and so wish that Apple kept at it, but the writing is on the wall... and sad to say once Steve is gone (as he must), it'll be over just like that. You may disagree, but that's reality.

One man is a thoughtful visoionary, concerned about his product - controlling and demanding to the point that the product conforms to his vision, determined to follow it through regardless of conventional wisdom.

The other man is a friggin salesguy that got promoted.

Microsoft and Apple are mirror images - nearly physical and exact embodiments of their respective leaders.

Pretty simple to see that in either case, not much has changed over the years.

Apple have never needed anything done by M$ or anyone else as motivation to improve. Apple is driven by a desire to design and create better products from within. That is what sets them apart form the rest.

Remember when Apple desperately needed a "modern OS" answer to Windows 95, and the best from Cupertino was... System 7.5.2?

The point is Apple cannot afford NOT to closely watch the entire industry, and be prepared to quickly answer competitors when neccessary. No amount of internal drive can help any company if they lose touch with their own markets.

It'd be a true shame if Apple got complacent (again) and thought they were above any serious competition (again).

OK, I'm putting on my asbestos suit because of all the flames that will follow.

I think the guy is right. There, I said it.

For an organization with the R&D resources of MSFT, it is a crying shame how little they innovate. In contrast, Apple takes a fraction of that budget and innovates like crazy. Does MSFT steal from Apple - ABSOLUTELY! It's actually shameful that as rich a company as MSFT can't bring themselves to do something creative but must rely on ripping off other companies.

That said, I think Win 7 is a winner for MSFT. Some think it is now very close between SL and Win7 (Mossberg). And I agree - in fact, I think MSFT took many Apple ideas and actually improved upon them. They still don't have a UI and experience as integrated and smooth as Apple, but they are very close. And sorry if the truth hurts, but so far, Win 7 has been much more stable than SL. If you cannot acknowledge the multiple problems with SL, you are just a fanboi. Truth is, Win 7 didn't even have as disastrous a bug as the guest account one. There are still things in SL that are vastly superior - the whole virus and malware and activation nightmare - but it is true that Win 7 is rock solid - and SL is undercooked. SL is not fully baked. And tragically, that was to be expected and will only get worse in the future - Apple OS will continue to sink and Win will continue to get better... because MSFT eats, sleeps, breathes OPERATING SYSTEM - they are a software computer company first and foremost. Apple is a hardware company - and not even mostly a computer hardware company... their priorities are going toward the whole iPhone and mobile platforms. It's no longer Apple Computers - officially. MSFT on the other hand lives and dies OS. Just look at the whole Leopard debacle - Apple had to admit they were late to the market and missed deadlines on Leopard development because they pulled their developers to work on the iPhone. Apple by percentage is making a smaller and smaller slice of their earnings from computers and more from gadgets like ipods, iphone, itablet etc. Frankly SL was a vast disappointment - working worse for many users that even the horrible Leopard. Tiger was the last decent OS Apple put out. It's all downhill from here - as Apple loses interest in developing an operating system, while MSFT races ahead. I wish it weren't so - I'll sooner switch to Linux, and so wish that Apple kept at it, but the writing is on the wall... and sad to say once Steve is gone (as he must), it'll be over just like that. You may disagree, but that's reality.

Except that "Apple OS" isn't sinking. It in fact, Apple controls the Premium end, and has shipped OS X with a record number of Macs sold, quarter after quarter.

Remember: Apple IS concerned with unit share, but only in the most profitable segments of the market.

And as for that whole "As Apple loses interest in developing an operating system" . . . except when it comes to OS X for Macs and OS X for iPhone and iPods. And just a head's up on this . . . we're moving away from "computers." When the Tablet changes the game (again), you'll understand why. And in fact, half of Apple's earnings, nearly 4 billion, come from Mac sales. When we hear talk of how "close" Windows is to OS X, or how it tries to ape OS X, it's pretty clear that Apple sets the bar. I'd call that plenty interested. And if Apple really isn't interested and SL isn't their best work, then colour me impressed. I'd hate to see Apple when they ARE serious. and when it comes to game-changing tech (and the groundbreaking interfaces that go with them), they're pretty damn serious.

I don't see Microsoft racing ahead anywhere. They've destroyed and squandered so many opprtunities that all they really have now is an operating system, on which everything rides (and has to), and a game console that is performing at about half its potential, along with an executive (and maybe more) that admitted publicly (and incredibly stupidly) what we've known about these frauds for years. MS releasing a fixed Vista after 8 years of doing nothing, and FINALLY getting somewhat close to Apple after nearly a decade, isn't racing anywhere, it's RELIEF at finally putting the Vista nightmare behind them, and desperate hope that Windows will save what positive mindshare the company has left.

I don't see how this is truely "news" since Win 3.1 went after the GUI of OS 6. But since Apple stole some pages from the Windows book along the road, I really don't see how it matters. (And why do they now include support for MS Exchange and Windows 7 on their devices? hmm...)

MS has taken cues from OS X for sure, I got 3-pack Upgrade to 7 for $150. Sweet. Also, I happen to like what they did with their taskbar, by hovering over an icon, you get thumbnails over the icon of open windows for that program. It's better and I hope Apple steals it. Also, a running program is subtly back lit all the way around the icon. That's nice too, although both ways are about equal IMO.

Competition like that is good for everyone. I never felt the need to change the colors of my screen in OS X, because I liked the grey Win2K theme, and always used the silver one in XP. I tried the graphite theme in OS X, but, that was too gray for me.... Original is fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by camroidv27

All you Apple fans, I hope you enjoy this little tid-bit. As for me, I really don't care. Apple, MS, Gnome, KDE, its all the same idea. I'm still waiting for a new way to look at files. None has happened since the GUI has been introduced... still a file structure tree. I'm talking about real innovation, not QuickLook, or CoverSheet views, and also not talking about BumpTop. I'm talking about a full scale re-model of the GUI. With touch devices out these days, there's a lot that can be done... sadly, we are still thinking "in the box". Apple is definitely included.

File trees work like a filing cabinet, and my small brain cannot comprehend a better way to organize files. However, to find files, applications, documents, websites, music files, etc. I've been using LaunchBar since shortly after buying my B+W G3. It's gotten better every release, and it changes the way you use a computer. It even has a calculator, can launch scripts....it does a lot.

You really won't need a mouse anymore for opening anything, if you use a program like that. For those Windows users in the forum, there is Colibri for you, and Colibri is free. Quicksilver I guess is another similar one for Mac; it's free too, but I don't use it. From what I've heard, stability has suffered as of late. Try them out if you want to get out of your "box."

I'm sure OS X was the inspiration as usual, but MS has failed short from the usability goal that OS X has established.

I just spent the entire day yesterday and today (in total almost 20 hr), setting up Windows 7 at work, and I can tell you it's not a pleasant experience. The UI is frustrating to use, and I had cursed out lout many many times, and wanted to break something on few occasions. All I can say is I'm glad it's over, and now I can fire up Korn Shell (yes Korn Shell for Windows 7), and program away.

Windows 7 may be "pretty" to people who like glowing multi color thick bezel windows, but make no mistake, Windows 7 is still the same old crufty Windows rotten core.

I really don't understand what is wrong with Microsoft and how come "they dont' get it". I mean they employ a lot of great and bright people, but some just lack taste and ability to produce something original, cool, and ahead of its time like "that other company" .

I'm a Mac guy myself, but honestly I think it took alot of class and courage to say something like this.. it's a very respectful thing to do, especially in a market where this kind of comment can eat you alive.
Not very many people at microsoft would have the integrity to say something like this.. nor would anyone at apple.

Here here! Good point. Welcome! I agree with SC et al. Nothing new, been this way since Windows 1.0! It's still kind of baffling to me, because I assume they spend probably 100 times (1,000 times?) more than Apple on OS R&D. And yet it's still not quite as good in most areas, maybe better in a few. I mean while you could say maybe it has caught up to OS X, Windows certainly doesn't seem to be way better. Yet they probably spend $100 million on Windows R&D every year. Could be a case study in organizational behavior. I once heard MS decides everything in committees of stodgy old business people. Perhaps that explains it?

"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox

At last (despite the garbage about stableness) someone comes up front and admits they copied mac (for the gazilionth time I might add). I respect this honest a lot. This guy gets a 7/10 in my book.

Which is a lot more than the 0/10 those developer twunts from MS got when they said that they hadn't copied the os x dock but had instead reintroduced the dock from windows 1.0 (which of course worked so well and was such a developed idea that it took apple's highly successful implementation of a dock so that ms would re-introduce their idea...), what a load of b**s...what little petty lying people...

I think what he means by limiting is you van build a system that has a graphic card, esata ports and connect to a hdmi monitor. My 24" HD looks awesome, has 1920x1200 and HDMI and that's how I have my mac connected. My MBPro 15". One of the last with the express slot. Google laptop UAD devices for audio and you'll see how important that alot really is to musicians.

The beauty though is while pystar has this new device that allows you to install a retail disk, they have a free script over at osx86 for FREE and the beauty about a hackntosh, which I still have, is that it never, ever kernal panics on me. But the real hidden beauty is that by default it still has a bios which means you can overclock both the ram and CPU resulting in performances that run circles around Apple high end all for $800
or so and that's with most features you could think of, blue tooth, iChat, esata pcie cards, FireWire and a fast graphics card and in time in addtion to over clocking, if you get the right motherboard, you can swap out a faster CPU when it comes out. Instead of having to buy a new machine. They even have boot screens that can act just like apple and the real kicker is, you can't tell your on a pc, the experience is seemles and works.

That said, I am glad a lot of IT firms, moms, enthusiasts will upgrade as this make apple release more priced fairly computers. I can also give a real life testimwnt to it as well.

When I tried out vista, I was already using mac most off the time.
I have HIGH END FIREWIRE audio devices. It took more than a year for a driver to come out that worked with Vista.
With Windows 7, I attached the device and it just worked. Hardly anything popped up. It just started working so expect all those gamers, prosumers, audio, video users to also upgrade or build a hackntosh, as Apple is missing the mark on the fastest growing segment ever. The prosumer. These are the next big bands, directors, editors, plus as I've already said, game sales are more than music and video combined yet Apple has this fear if they release a headless machine, that pros will buy them. And Apples right, they would, saving the mac pro for the bigger studios, you would see these mid range in studios B and C the same way I saw iMacs back in the day with the PowerPC in the main studio. What Apple fails to get is alll the gamers, prosumers they would hVe. Millions. But ahh, apple runs into a problem. These gamers and enthusiasts that make up more sales than video/music combined, also want fast graphic cards, ao Applw would have to support all these graphic carda and in their eyes. Lose money as they know their markup on ram and gpus are not in line with what you can really get for your dollar.

I say it's all good. Hopefully the courier is by Microsoft only marking the first ever microsoft pc and then maybe apple releases mid range headless and tablet.

One detail where Microsoft actually ended being better than the original are jump lists as contrary to the OS X pendant they also work when the application is not running. I usually use them to start an application with a specific recently used document which saves a few clicks. People are also set in their ways as I've experienced two installations by different people where the new task bar was reconfigured to work as closely as the old one did despite the OS X inspired design being far superior imo.

Another detail which I wouldn't mind Apple porting over to 10.7 is that on Windows 7 there's a visual indicator that multiple windows have been collapsed into the icon. On OS X currently you pretty much have to remember it and having to press the mouse button for some time to make them visible in Expose is not as elegant as selecting them directly in the Aero previews with just hovering over the taskbar icon.

Neither of these are "better" it's just your preference.

Opening a document in Mac OS X that you were working on is easier for me because I have quicker access to my documents from the Documents stack which is a a navigable "jump-list" of the all my documents.

The visual indicator for what windows are open with which application is called "pause-click" and is also right on the dock.

Whatever works for you is fine, but overall Mac OS X is better IMO. More logical, more consistent, easier and faster to get at things etc.

I think what he means by limiting is you van build a system that has a graphic card, esata ports and connect to a hdmi monitor. My 24" HD looks awesome, has 1920x1200 and HDMI and that's how I have my mac connected. My MBPro 15". One of the last with the express slot. Google laptop UAD devices for audio and you'll see how important that alot really is to musicians.

The beauty though is while pystar has this new device that allows you to install a retail disk, they have a free script over at osx86 for FREE and the beauty about a hackntosh, which I still have, is that it never, ever kernal panics on me. But the real hidden beauty is that by default it still has a bios which means you can overclock both the ram and CPU resulting in performances that run circles around Apple high end all for $800
or so and that's with most features you could think of, blue tooth, iChat, esata pcie cards, FireWire and a fast graphics card and in time in addtion to over clocking, if you get the right motherboard, you can swap out a faster CPU when it comes out. Instead of having to buy a new machine. They even have boot screens that can act just like apple and the real kicker is, you can't tell your on a pc, the experience is seemles and works.

That said, I am glad a lot of IT firms, moms, enthusiasts will upgrade as this make apple release more priced fairly computers. I can also give a real life testimwnt to it as well.

When I tried out vista, I was already using mac most off the time.
I have HIGH END FIREWIRE audio devices. It took more than a year for a driver to come out that worked with Vista.
With Windows 7, I attached the device and it just worked. Hardly anything popped up. It just started working so expect all those gamers, prosumers, audio, video users to also upgrade or build a hackntosh, as Apple is missing the mark on the fastest growing segment ever. The prosumer. These are the next big bands, directors, editors, plus as I've already said, game sales are more than music and video combined yet Apple has this fear if they release a headless machine, that pros will buy them. And Apples right, they would, saving the mac pro for the bigger studios, you would see these mid range in studios B and C the same way I saw iMacs back in the day with the PowerPC in the main studio. What Apple fails to get is alll the gamers, prosumers they would hVe. Millions. But ahh, apple runs into a problem. These gamers and enthusiasts that make up more sales than video/music combined, also want fast graphic cards, ao Applw would have to support all these graphic carda and in their eyes. Lose money as they know their markup on ram and gpus are not in line with what you can really get for your dollar.

I say it's all good. Hopefully the courier is by Microsoft only marking the first ever microsoft pc and then maybe apple releases mid range headless and tablet.

In the end. We all win.

Peace.

WOW great post! I have said the same time and time again. Well done and though out! :-)

Tallest Skil:

"Eventually Google will have their Afghanistan with Oracle and collapse" "The future is Apple, Google, and a third company that hasn't yet been created."

I'm sure OS X was the inspiration as usual, but MS has failed short from the usability goal that OS X has established.

I just spent the entire day yesterday and today (in total almost 20 hr), setting up Windows 7 at work, and I can tell you it's not a pleasant experience. The UI is frustrating to use, and I had cursed out lout many many times, and wanted to break something on few occasions. All I can say is I'm glad it's over, and now I can fire up Korn Shell (yes Korn Shell for Windows 7), and program away.

Windows 7 may be "pretty" to people who like glowing multi color thick bezel windows, but make no mistake, Windows 7 is still the same old crufty Windows rotten core.

I really don't understand what is wrong with Microsoft and how come "they dont' get it". I mean they employ a lot of great and bright people, but some just lack taste and ability to produce something original, cool, and ahead of its time like "that other company" .

i have switched to mac and of course will never go back to pc hell

whenever i have to work with pcs i get so frustrated because navigating through a lot of open windows is just...plain terrible to do

for their next release, microsoft (for their windows X, or windows 10.7, or however they wish to rip apple off again) will steal exposé, and that might make things different

having viruses and registry? those have been around since windows 95, someone tell ballmer that

this is just Micro$oft doing what they do best. Copy, cheat, and steal. But at least this time they can admit it. Windows has been trying to look like OS X for so long now. Still does not have the user friendly interface that Mac has. Keep trying Micro$oft. You almost got it. Maybe Micro$oft should try something different, like an original idea instead of copying off others and calling it your own.

whenever i have to work with pcs i get so frustrated because navigating through a lot of open windows is just...plain terrible to do

for their next release, microsoft (for their windows X, or windows 10.7, or however they wish to rip apple off again) will steal exposé, and that might make things different

having viruses and registry? those have been around since windows 95, someone tell ballmer that

But they did improve on that stuff, if you've bothered to try it, or at least read some reviews from people who have actually tried it. The stuff MS has "stolen", they have also improved upon. You can grab a window and shake it to clear all other windows from the desktop, for instance. Windows Key+Tab cycles through open windows. The latter has been around (in Windows) since Vista.
I like it, the borrowing back and forth. It makes things better for everyone. If people didn't do that, you'd still be driving around in the first car ever made by the first manufacturer to ever make one. Imagine if Apple died in the 90's, and we got stuck at Windows ME?

I'm a fan of both OS's, they both have their benefit. I'd be even happier if someone else could manage a decent GUI and a solid kernel to improve upon both of these OS designs and backends. Without this bickering back and forth about who's stuff is better, and always trying to one-up the other guy, innovation would be non-existent.

I just spent the entire day yesterday and today (in total almost 20 hr), setting up Windows 7 at work, and I can tell you it's not a pleasant experience. The UI is frustrating to use, and I had cursed out lout many many times, and wanted to break something on few occasions. All I can say is I'm glad it's over, and now I can fire up Korn Shell (yes Korn Shell for Windows 7), and program away.