Well that Wrathion guy is always edgy and mad at something...someone has to tell him to just take a deep breath, forget about the whole "burning legion is coming" thing and find a dragon lady to get laid...
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A real life example would be if you put the ruler of Pakistan to be the leader of the United Nations - just massive differences in pretty much every conceivable way would prevent any efficient work from being done.

You know Kofi Annan was from Ghana, right? Do you think Ghana isn't massively different from most of the 192 other nations in the UN?

Originally Posted by Trassk

I think a better example is it be like putting a white, rich american in as leader of a third world country, whos never had to interact or deal with that kind of harsh living before.

What about the last two decades the blood elves have lived through hasn't been harsh?

Homeland invaded twice, destroyed. Half of their capital city in ruins. 90% of their population wiped out. Suffering from addiction. Betrayed by their own leader. War after war after war.

You being serious, Trassk?

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Originally Posted by Gravemind

High Chieftain is the leader of the tauren. Orcs have a Warchief (See: Blackhand, Orgrim, Ner'zhul, Kargath, to name a few).

Not exactly true. Orcs have only had a Warchief since the creation of the Horde, founded only a generation ago. Prior to that they just had various clans led by individual chieftains. There was one Elder Shaman that gave spiritual guidance to the entire orcish race, but did not lead the clans. That's how their society operated for hundreds, if not thousands, of years, before Kil'jaeden's influence corrupted their way of life.

If a non-orc is elected Warchief, I suspect that Thrall will return to lead the orcs as Elder Shaman, rather than with some other title.

High Chieftain is not a term exclusive to tauren, it simply means "the chieftain in charge of all the chieftains of the clans". It was a throwaway term anyway, they would obviously come up with some new custom title for the new orc racial leader like "Lord of the Clans" or something. This is a new Horde now, it has been ever since Forsaken were accepted into it, and it's been cemented with the inclusion of blood elves, goblins, and pandaren. To think that the Warchief WILL be an orc just because every Warchief beforehand has been is a very dated and flawed argument. Varian didn't like Thrall much less Garrosh, what makes anyone think he's going to leave knowing another orc is in charge?

Dated, sure, flawed? No. Warchief was a title created by orcs. Its name, and even the word Horde, implies savagery. It's not logical for a blood elf to have a horde because blood elves are not savage. To be part of a horde, sure, but to be the leading faction of one? I don't think so. And Varian doesn't get to choose who is Warchief. He walks away and lets the Horde decide. It'll be an orc.

Lor'themar (at the moment at least) seem to mostly care about his own people, would make sense if he before becoming Warchief makes some oath to treat all the Horde races equally, especially since the Horde have seen what happens when a leader only cares about his own people (Garrosh).

Dated, sure, flawed? No. Warchief was a title created by orcs. Its name, and even the word Horde, implies savagery. It's not logical for a blood elf to have a horde because blood elves are not savage. To be part of a horde, sure, but to be the leading faction of one? I don't think so. And Varian doesn't get to choose who is Warchief. He walks away and lets the Horde decide. It'll be an orc.

To say that a blood elf can't be a Warchief because the literal word "horde" doesn't suit them is one of the dumber arguments I've seen. There are LOADS of arguments you could have used, but the idea that it's not possible because they're not "savage" is a load of crock. What prevents Lor'themar from having the title, in game? Is there a rule about it? Will Vol'jin or Baine say, "Hey! You can't be warchief! You're way too pretty!". Do the orcs(and it should be reminded that the player orcs are less numerous than the non-player orcs involved with Garrosh), have ANY say in who will be the Warchief after they were involved with the last one who committed several atrocities and persecuted the rest of the Horde? Do you really think the Alliance leaves, just because they're being nice? They're not their as a favour to Vol'jin, they frankly don't give a damn about him, they are there to remove a dangerous and insane faction leader that is a threat, and to make sure that their isn't a new one placed that's just as bad.

The only thing that actually is making this seem weird are the players themselves with their metagaming attitude. The fact is that there IS NO REASON that Lor'themar couldn't be Warchief, other than players saying "well it would feel too weird if it was a blood elf".

If Blizzard speaks the truth this rules out Vol'jin and Thrall. Also makes Lorthemar and Saurfang unlikely.

Someone we would not think about? Maybe someone who connects Horde and Alliance...
Shaohao? Would be the kind of Peaceful, Spiritual Leader the Alliance would surely want for the Horde... he also has strong bonds to the Alliance because Pandaren are at both sides.
Tirion? He is a human but as leader of the Silver Hand rather neutral. He has been out of the scene for some time now though and never really interacted directly with the Horde Leaders.
Eitrigg? Long time right hand of the Horde Warchiefs, knows a lot about the "business"... also has some human friends like Tirion and other Paladins.

To say that a blood elf can't be a Warchief because the literal word "horde" doesn't suit them is one of the dumber arguments I've seen. There are LOADS of arguments you could have used, but the idea that it's not possible because they're not "savage" is a load of crock. What prevents Lor'themar from having the title, in game? Is there a rule about it? Will Vol'jin or Baine say, "Hey! You can't be warchief! You're way too pretty!". Do the orcs(and it should be reminded that the player orcs are less numerous than the non-player orcs involved with Garrosh), have ANY say in who will be the Warchief after they were involved with the last one who committed several atrocities and persecuted the rest of the Horde? Do you really think the Alliance leaves, just because they're being nice? They're not their as a favour to Vol'jin, they frankly don't give a damn about him, they are there to remove a dangerous and insane faction leader that is a threat, and to make sure that their isn't a new one placed that's just as bad.

The only thing that actually is making this seem weird are the players themselves with their metagaming attitude. The fact is that there IS NO REASON that Lor'themar couldn't be Warchief, other than players saying "well it would feel too weird if it was a blood elf".

Stop trying to straw-man this debate into a black and white argument where you only respond to the people who validate your stance. As I've said - as have others - already in this thread, that some of us oppose Lor'themar as warchief because recent events (such as attempting to re-join the Alliance) demonstrate that his focus is entirely on his people. He does not consider the other races of the Horde in his decision-making. If he had been accepted into the Alliance he would have abandoned the Darkspears to Garrosh's wrath. He does not possess the core characteristics that encompass a leader of the Horde, as set out in Thrall's vision. One key component for example, is to aid your comrades in times of need, as banding together to support one another's species' survival is paramount to the Horde's continued existence, not abandoning them to their fate and only looking out for your own race.

Stop trying to straw-man this debate into a black and white argument where you only respond to the people who validate your stance. As I've said - as have others - already in this thread, that some of us oppose Lor'themar as warchief because recent events (such as attempting to re-join the Alliance) demonstrate that his focus is entirely on his people. He does not consider the other races of the Horde in his decision-making. If he had been accepted into the Alliance he would have abandoned the Darkspears to Garrosh's wrath. He does not possess the core characteristics that encompass a leader of the Horde, as set out in Thrall's vision. One key component for example, is to aid your comrades in times of need, as banding together to support one another's species' survival is paramount to the Horde's continued existence, not abandoning them to their fate and only looking out for your own race.

I respond to people who don't think Lor'themar will be warchief because they don't want him to be, rather than actually giving any reason why he shouldn't be other than their own stupid self imposed rules as to what the warchief "should" be.

Assisting your allies overthrowing a tyrant IS "supporting your allies in times of need". As I remember, he takes a role in the Siege of Orgrimmar as well. And where is this list of rules for the Warchief set out by Thrall's vision? Garrosh wasn't even a good warchief, and Thrall knew he wouldn't be a good warchief, he was just the best and most popular choice at the time when Thrall was forced to leave the position. So much for "core characteristics". I'll grant you that pushing to leave the Horde for the Alliance was a selfish choice for the Blood Elves to make, but then again, it probably seemed like the only choice at the time. Who wants to see their people persecuted a second time? And who says that it's bad for the other Horde races if the Blood Elves had left? The tauren and trolls were already excommunicated, oppressed, or left the Horde to rebel. As far as Lor'themar sees it, the Horde he's leaving is nothing like the one he originally joined. He joined Thrall's Horde, not the "True Horde" that Garrosh was pushing. I also don't see Vol'jin or Baine doing anything for the blood elves. So, what, you're only a candidate for the Horde if you help out the savage bestial races? I didn't see any other Horde races helping out the Sunreavers on the Isle of Thunder.

Attempting to leave the Horde was a desperate decision made by Lor'themar, but one he believed was best for his people, especially since Vol'jin had already left as well. The will and strength to make the hard choices is what is needed in a leader, even if they look like the wrong choices to everyone else.

Stop trying to straw-man this debate into a black and white argument where you only respond to the people who validate your stance. As I've said - as have others - already in this thread, that some of us oppose Lor'themar as warchief because recent events (such as attempting to re-join the Alliance) demonstrate that his focus is entirely on his people. He does not consider the other races of the Horde in his decision-making. If he had been accepted into the Alliance he would have abandoned the Darkspears to Garrosh's wrath. He does not possess the core characteristics that encompass a leader of the Horde, as set out in Thrall's vision. One key component for example, is to aid your comrades in times of need, as banding together to support one another's species' survival is paramount to the Horde's continued existence, not abandoning them to their fate and only looking out for your own race.

To be fair, the other races haven't looked out for the blood elves either. Sylvanas was the only one who helped them in their time of need, and she held everything hostage afterwards (not to mention Lor'themar had to go along with her simply because Quel'thalas would fall to the Scourge if he hadn't).

Granted, that's thankfully no longer the case. Though they have a small population, the Sin'dorei are fast becoming a force to be reckoned with. Not only do they have some of the Thunder King's most powerful technology, but they also have the power of the Sunwell under their command once again (thus Sylvanas' forces are no longer needed and the BC starting zones desperately need a re-vamp because of this).

I digress, I've gotten away from my original point; None of the other Horde races helped the Sin'dorei in their time of need. Why should they have helped Vol'jin when he needed it, especially when Cairne and Vol'jin himself got themselves in that situation by going against Thrall's wishes in the first place? Need I remind you that Thrall asked Vol'jin and Cairne to help guide Garrosh in his role as Warchief? And what did they do?

Cairne immediately challenged Garrosh to a duel (and would've won had it not been for Magatha's interference), and Vol'jin went apeshit and left Orgrimmar altogether.

I love the Horde, I was Horde from the RTS Warcraft games up until a little while ago, when I went Alliance to raid with some friends. But this all started with Cairne and Vol'jin's decisions to go against Thrall's wishes to guide Garrosh. Had they done as they were asked, we might not be arguing this right now.

Do the orcs(and it should be reminded that the player orcs are less numerous than the non-player orcs involved with Garrosh), have ANY say in who will be the Warchief after they were involved with the last one who committed several atrocities and persecuted the rest of the Horde?

Well, you can compare it to blame Germany got for WWI, which resulted in WWII. Forcing the Orcs to accept something they don't like and something as major as this would logically only conclude in the Orcs moving further towards their dark past.

You know what the Allies did after WWII? They didn't force Germany to pay for the damage a second time, as they learned from their mistakes.

I respond to people who don't think Lor'themar will be warchief because they don't want him to be, rather than actually giving any reason why he shouldn't be other than their own stupid self imposed rules as to what the warchief "should" be.

Assisting your allies overthrowing a tyrant IS "supporting your allies in times of need". As I remember, he takes a role in the Siege of Orgrimmar as well. And where is this list of rules for the Warchief set out by Thrall's vision? Garrosh wasn't even a good warchief, and Thrall knew he wouldn't be a good warchief, he was just the best and most popular choice at the time when Thrall was forced to leave the position. So much for "core characteristics". I'll grant you that pushing to leave the Horde for the Alliance was a selfish choice for the Blood Elves to make, but then again, it probably seemed like the only choice at the time. Who wants to see their people persecuted a second time? And who says that it's bad for the other Horde races if the Blood Elves had left? The tauren and trolls were already excommunicated, oppressed, or left the Horde to rebel. As far as Lor'themar sees it, the Horde he's leaving is nothing like the one he originally joined. He joined Thrall's Horde, not the "True Horde" that Garrosh was pushing. I also don't see Vol'jin or Baine doing anything for the blood elves. So, what, you're only a candidate for the Horde if you help out the savage bestial races? I didn't see any other Horde races helping out the Sunreavers on the Isle of Thunder.

Attempting to leave the Horde was a desperate decision made by Lor'themar, but one he believed was best for his people, especially since Vol'jin had already left as well. The will and strength to make the hard choices is what is needed in a leader, even if they look like the wrong choices to everyone else.

I honestly couldn't have cared who would become Warchief before, the majority of my characters are orcs and tauren even, but now I just want to see this happen. Any other choice would be so boring.

Originally Posted by Hardstyler01

Well, you can compare it to blame Germany got for WWI, which resulted in WWII. Forcing the Orcs to accept something they don't like and something as major as this would logically only conclude in the Orcs moving further towards their dark past.

You know what the Allies did after WWII? They didn't force Germany to pay for the damage a second time, as they learned from their mistakes.

It would be so great if Azeroth had our world history available to them, wouldn't it?