"I went to see this movie because of the good buzz surrounding the performances of the lead actors Heath and Jake. The performances are good and convincing, but the subject matter is the biggest turn off for anyone heterosexual. Certainly this film would Never have gained as much respect if it had featured a normal couple, and this is a tribute to how Hollywood and the left-wing press loves any film that has "diversity" in it. Take out the homosexuality and you have an empty film that has nothing really worthy of merit save the performances of the two leads.

It has been sensibly debuted only in limited theater release and as such is bound to be a commercial failure given it's budget and it's not so great opening weekend. No doubt the Homosexual community want to champion this film. There is also a very off putting love scene that lasts quite a while, that is very difficult to tolerate if you aren't liberal in your ideology. If you want a good film that dals with homosexuality then look at the much better philedelphia with Tom Hanks.

According to this review, no heterosexual is about to appreciate a film with homosexual characters. That is rather strange, especially how much I not only enjoyed Philadelphia but own it also. We are told that this is a leftist propaganda film but oddly enough, there are a good deal of gay conservatives, both closeted and uncloseted. The reviewer expects this to be a commercial failure but again, strangely enough, it was the #1 movie in America the last time I checked. While this reviewer negatively grades it for featuring characters who are not 'normal', he claims that The 40 Year Old Virgin is 'the best comedy of the year': http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/AUITKX16DITVO/ref=cm_cr_auth/103-2266111-0252635?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Now, I haven't seen this film yet and neither do I plan on paying to see it. But I just don't understand why any film would be hated merely for featuring gay characters. It's perfectly okay for a film to feature men who crash weddings to take advantage of young women, this same reviewer seems to highly enjoy Wedding Crashers. But shepherds dealing with their closeted homosexuality and the pain that can cause? No, that's just immoral and sick.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

It's true I tell you!And you know what else? The link between "homosexual" and "left wing" exists only in propaganda.Homosexuality was punishable with seven years imprisonment and "re-education camps" in Soviet Russia....doesn't get much more left wing than that......

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

It's true I tell you!And you know what else? The link between "homosexual" and "left wing" exists only in propaganda.Homosexuality was punishable with seven years imprisonment and "re-education camps" in Soviet Russia....doesn't get much more left wing than that......

Hopefully this won't get the thread locked for political discussion... I don't mean to be playing favorites with any particular belief system... if this post went over the line, please edit it or delete it, or just let me know not to go so far again

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What does left vs. right "wing" mean, anyways?

I'm not sure if you were being facetious, but I imagine there probably are some people wondering that, so... These terms have different meanings in different countries. In America, left wing refers to the liberal side of political belief, which normally includes a focus on the environment, employment, social programs, and health care; usually this means more government and regulation, but (for the liberals) the added government produced more good than harm. The term right wing in America refers to the conservative side of political belief, and puts it's focus on less government, traditional values, lower taxes, and allowing capitalism to flourish; right wingers essentially believe that if you get the government out of people's lives and let capitalism and humanity do it's work, that people will be better and better off with each passing year. People who are liberal are generally a Democrat, or are in a small group like the Green party; while people who are conservative are generally Republican, or in a small group like the Constitution party. Normally (because of ideology) 35 or so percent of people will vote for Democrats and 35 or so percent will automatically vote for Republicans; thus it's the other 30 percent of people that candidates running for office go for, and thus the reason you see people (both left and right wing) pretending to be someone they're not, in an attempt to convince the moderate center that they are also centrists. Really, someone labeled a "left winger" or "right winger" is hard to elect to the national government; you have to convince people that you aren't too "extreme".

« Last Edit: January 29, 2006, 12:14:06 PM by Asteriktos »

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"Christian America is finally waking up to what fraternities and biker gangs have known for years: hazing works!"

This is a film that invites us to feel sorry for two homosexual and adulterous cowboys, not for the families that are ruined in the wake of their perversion and selfishness. Ang Lee is a good director, so I'm sure the film is beautifully shot and wonderfully produced. I don't think anyone hates this movie because it features homosexual cowboys, but it should be avoided because it subtly attempts to equate what goes on between two homosexuals with what a man and a woman share when they fall in love and marry. There is no equivocation there and no parody, and any attempt to create such ought to be rejected by people who know better.

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Through the prayers of our Holy Fathers, Lord Jesus Christ our God, have mercy upon and save us. Amen!

This is a film that invites us to feel sorry for two homosexual and adulterous cowboys, not for the families that are ruined in the wake of their perversion and selfishness. Ang Lee is a good director, so I'm sure the film is beautifully shot and wonderfully produced. I don't think anyone hates this movie because it features homosexual cowboys, but it should be avoided because it subtly attempts to equate what goes on between two homosexuals with what a man and a woman share when they fall in love and marry. There is no equivocation there and no parody, and any attempt to create such ought to be rejected by people who know better.

It's a propaganda film and I wouldn't mind seeing it for that purpose. Sometimes large rallies and protests work best for spreading propaganda (usually when the majority...or ruling minority...already agrees with you), sometimes more subtle attacks that work away at the fundamental values and notions of men (i.e. homosexuality is wrong) by playing this value against other values your audience holds dear (i.e. freedom and justice), the trick is to show that the value that you want to undermine is the less important of the two...hence the art of propaganda.

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"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

[bible]Ephesians 5:3[/bible]If people are going to discuss this film on an Orthodox Christian board, could they do so without sinking into language and references more becoming of a brothel keeper or pornographer? I'm not sure where I will find more filth, in the film or this thread.

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

[bible]Ephesians 5:3[/bible]If people are going to discuss this film on an Orthodox Christian board, could they do so without sinking into language and references more becoming of a brothel keeper or pornographer? I'm not sure where I will find more filth, in the film or this thread.

AMEN.

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"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

As an Orthodox Christian who is gay myself, I really enjoyed this movie. I wonder how many of the people on this thread that are condemning it actually have SEEN it? I didn't view it as propaganda at all, although I will respect the opinion of others who view it as such. It is not so much a pro-gay movie as it is simply a movie that HUMANIZES the gay characters and has some sympathy for them. If you follow the movie closely, you will notice that one of the shepherds, Ennis, implies that he is a virgin very early in the movie, before any sexual activity begins. He is obviously a young man that is struggling with his sexual orientation and quite grieved by it. He doesn't want to admit that he is gay and appears quite ashamed of it. He tells fellow shepherd, Jack (who is it implied is sexually experienced in gay things), that he plans to marry in the fall. Ennis is simply doing what ANY man gay man in rural 1960s America would have done at the time: marry a woman to "cure" him of the gayness. We know now that that doesn't work. But you have to remember in the 1960s, homosexuality was still classified as a mental illness. Back then if a young man had the courage to admit that he was gay to his priest or his doctor, generally the advice he was given was to get married and see if heterosexual sex could "cure" him. And this is exactly what Ennis does. Furthermore, once Ennis gets married, he doesn't frequent gay bars or nightclubs (if even there were any there in rural Wyoming at the time, which I highly doubt). He is, at the beginning, a sincere husband and a loving father to his two children. It is only when he receives the postcard in the mail that Jack will be passing through town, that his gay passions outwardly manifest themselves. When Ennis's wife sees him and Jack kissing on the laundromat staircase, I cried. I felt so terribly sorry for the woman. The whole thing was just such a tragedy. Her heart is broken. She feels betrayed, bewildered, and fearful. And I certainly don't blame her for those feelings. I did NOT rejoice when his wife had her heart torn out like that. Nevertheless, that is a scene that straight Americans NEED to see, because it shows quite pointedly the devastating and destructive effect of that telling gay men to married straight women has: it doesn't work, and it produces heartache and tragedy for all involved. I know when I first confessed to my priest that I was gay, he suggested that I pair myself up with a woman. Perhaps she could "cure" me. I am so glad I did not. Who would want to be that woman? The experiental guneia pig to cure the man? If I had followed my priest's advice, I could very well have ended up in a marriage like Ennis did, trapped, unhappy and having destroyed a good woman in the process. I get the impression that the Orthodox Church really has no idea how to minister to gay people and wishes we would all just go away. Now when I bring up being gay in confession, all my priest can tell me is "I don't know what to tell you." So I guess that is the lot of the gay Orthodox Christian, live alone, be depressed the rest of your life, never know love or being loved, and die alone. And don't tell anyone else about it either, or you'll be called a pervert or like one person in my parish referred to me as a "faggot." I find it ironic that the Orthodox Church can condemn gay people, yet offer absolutely no ministries to assist us with our struggles.

I get the impression that the Orthodox Church really has no idea how to minister to gay people and wishes we would all just go away.

I think you get that idea because we believe homosexuality to be a sin, and it is quite awkward to say so knowing that you will react negatively to that. Have you ever seen an Orthodox priest comfortably tell someone that they are too fat (from gluttony, not genetics), or that they drink too much alcohol? Since each person is different, who would really knows how to minister to such people, until you actually get down to the work of trying to help. Many times, it is probably easier just to sit back and use platitudes from the pulpit or the pew, rather than face the pain, rejection, and possibly rage of someone you respect but think is spiritually harming themselves. The Orthodox Church does offer a "ministry" for gay people: the same one it offers fornicators like me, and adulterers, and all other manner of sinners (which includes everyone). The difference is that the ministry is not some special group with literature like "Living With Homosexuality in the 21st Century Orthodox Church," support groups meeting each Thursday, etc. Orthodoxy offers the sacraments, virtues, etc. Whether that works for you or not is your call, I suppose, but I believe it is incorrect to say that she "offers absolutely no ministries to assist us with our struggles," when the Church's entire existence (at her best if you take advantage of it) is to help assist both you and I in our struggles. This is the internal mission of the Church. Please don't be mad because we are not giving your issue a special classification and recognizing you as being different; made in the image of God, you are of course unique and precious, yet being a human you are nonetheless a sinner just like the rest of us.

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"Christian America is finally waking up to what fraternities and biker gangs have known for years: hazing works!"

Please don't be mad because we are not giving your issue a special classification

Who do you mean by "we"? Isn't Tikhon our brother, a fellow Orthodox Christian with whom we are united in the Blood of Christ. If, as you say, he is a sinner like the rest of us, why do you seperate "we" from him? I think you're being a bit simplistic, Asteriktos. After reflecting on what Thikon said, I think, gay people are in a unique position in the Church. They have no choice like the rest of us when it comes to celibacy. Even a former murderer is permitted to fall in love and marry.

So I guess that is the lot of the gay Orthodox Christian, live alone, be depressed the rest of your life, never know love or being loved, and die alone.

Thanks Tikhon, for {yet another) enlightening post. And I always thought the hardest part of being gay would be the prohibitive standards of personal hygiene. I'll try to see the film this weekend and let you know what I think.

« Last Edit: January 31, 2006, 09:37:26 AM by ozgeorge »

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

It is interesting to see how the interplay between Orthodoxy and the culture here has created this ackward situation of clergy and laity not knowing how to pastorally support members of the Church who happen to be gay. On the level of dealing with someone's relationship to the Church and to Christ, the point made above that there is no special classification is right on. Sinners, all of us. It is unfortunate when some members of the body decide that one particular sin - extramarital sex - is more grave than the others, and that one form of this sin - extramarital sex with the same gender - is more serious than the other form. In the process, they a) create a hierarchy of sin that doesn't exist, and b) they group all persons who are gay into a group - often knowingly or unknowingly treating every gay person they come across as a "gay fornicator" - even if their virginity is still intact (and I mean virginity on all levels, not just the physical).But what adds to this problem of pastors and laity not knowing how to explain Christ's all-encompassing love to a member in need is the fact that they also do not know how to spiritually and emotionally support said member through their unique social situation; and this deficiency magnifies the problems within the relationship between members of the Church!

The end of the epistle reading for Sts. Cosmas and Damian (which was read today) is quite appropos; and let's hope that the unmercenary healers (especially Cyrus and John, whom we commemorate today) can intercede for us that all may be brought to Christ in love:

[bible]1Corinthians 13:1-8[/bible]

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"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Does the gay cowboy foreplay in this movie include the words "Hey boy, you look just like a hog." Followed up by "Come on piggy, give me a ride?"

This is just another attempt among many, by the Hollywood elite in trying to shove homosexuality down the throats of middle America. Box office reciepts are reflecting the turn off by most Americans. "Capote" is another although it is a story of Truman in his writings of "In Cold Blood". Hollywood feels that the more we are exposed to this sordid lifestyle the less sensitive we will become. They may be right, but who knows.

I personally think that the Orthodox Church is biased against homosexuals more than other sinners. Coming from a priest's family background, I have witnessed many times how people ostracize others who they think MIGHT be gay.

Other sins have fallen by the wayside. When at one time children out of wedlock was deeply frowned upon, it is now, if not a common sight, then one that you see from time to time. Luckily, times have changed, and much of the time, these unwed mothers & fathers are welcomed back and supported.

I also know several people who have served their time in prison for drugs, robbery, etc. These people are also welcomed back most of the time, with the assumption that they have repented.

Alcoholics, people don't even blink at usually.

Fat people (me included)? no problem, as long as you don't eat us outta house & home, eat on.

People who are known to lie and cheat are in our midst, and nothing is done about that most of the time.

And yet I've seen people whisper "him, over there, they say he's gay..." and after that, this person is forever suspect. Guys are more cautious around him, women rarely take them seriously. Behind their back, things are said. The person starts to feel estranged from a group of people he's/she's known their entire life. This leads to depression, anger, and emotions we probably don't even know about because we've never felt that alone.

It is also assumed that if the person is gay, he/she has acted upon it. That is between him/her, their priest, and God, just like our sins are.

And as for this movie... how many people have watched movies like The Godfather or Scarface, and enjoyed it? Watching people being killed, usually without a second thought. Movies like that Orthodox people watch every day, and don't give it a second thought.

I haven't seen this movie, but I've read reviews, and also from what Tihon said, it sounds like a well thought out depiction of people struggling with themselves, just as we all do. The fact that these 2 men FAILED to resist temptation should have earn them compassion & prayers, not condemnation.

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Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didnÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...

Thank you all for the wonderfully enlightening posts. I think something that often perplexes me is the reaction of some within our Church and an apparent lack of compassion for our brothers and sisters. I find myself asking "where is the love". Your posts answer a lot. Thanks again.

Tikhon, all I have to say is BRAVO! Your perspective is very very very necessary.

Personally, I have not seen this movie because I'm not a fan of Westerns.

However, I do have some expertise and knowlege of the "gay community" because my sister is gay. (Use the advanced search I have posted about this before) It seems to me that Orthodox Christians, clergy included A. do not know how to minister to the gay community B. Have taken thier cue for thier treatment of gays and lesbians from crackpots such as Jerry Falwell who make no bones about shunning, mistreating or otherwise assaulting someone for being gay. C. Have a very backwards view homosexuality. Believing in the "scare em straight" or suggest that they marry someone of the opposite sex

We (Orthodox Christians) need to start showing compassion and kindness towards gays and lesbians who view Christians as one giant hateful lump of humanity.

This is just another attempt among many, by the Hollywood elite in trying to shove homosexuality down the throats of middle America.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Box office reciepts are reflecting the turn off by most Americans.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š "Capote" is another although it is a story of Truman in his writings of "In Cold Blood".ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Hollywood feels that the more we are exposed to this sordid lifestyle the less sensitive we will become.ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š They may be right, but who knows.

As I said, it's a propaganda film, nothing inhrently wrong with that, we may object to what is being advocated but that is not reason to not enjoy the skill and art involved in making any good propaganda film. While I have not seen the movie, from what I understand of it the writers used American values and sensitivities to try and advocate a posistion that is unpopular in the country today, and from what I understand was quite successful at it...that's an artistic accomplishment is to be appreciated, even if you disagree with the politics. Likewise, no objective person could object to the asthetic value and artistic ability of Leni Riefenstahl in Triumph des Willens and Tag der Freiheit which were made for the Nuremberg Rallies, regardless of what is thought of the politics depicted. Art in general, and propaganda art in particular (which is a particular favourite of mine, go figure, but can be harder to be objective about), should be judged on it own merits, it should be judged on whether or not it was successful by its own criteria, not by the criteria of others.

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"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

I get the impression that the Orthodox Church really has no idea how to minister to gay people and wishes we would all just go away.

Leaving aside the viewpoint of the Church. Personally, although not a politically correct statement, I wish they would. I am sick to death of the attempt to portray a "gay culture" as "normal". It is no more normal than bestiality is normal.

Leaving aside the viewpoint of the Church. Personally, although not a politically correct statement, I wish they would. I am sick to death of the attempt to portray a "gay culture" as "normal". It is no more normal than bestiality is normal.

First of all, I don't see how you can compare the two. An animal cannot give consent to have sex with a human. A better comparison would be to compare two hetrosexual couples who engage in group sex.

Gay relationships are not "normal" as two men or two women cannot procreate. I won't argue that "gay culture" is not vapid, narcissistic, drug addled and victims of its own lust. However, there are gay people who do not give in to common gay culture. They may be struggling with thier sexuality. We as christians need to show compassion and your above statement is ignorant and shows no compassion to those that are struggling with homosexuality.

Leaving aside the viewpoint of the Church. Personally, although not a politically correct statement, I wish they would. I am sick to death of the attempt to portray a "gay culture" as "normal". It is no more normal than bestiality is normal.

I don't think anyone who takes the Orthodox faith seriously would attempt to call homosexual sexual activity "normal." ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š There are, however, people like Tikhon29605 who live, day-in and day-out, with the reality of experiencing a same-sex attraction which will more than likely not just "go away." ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š They understand the Church's standard of mandatory celibacy and yet they still convert, choosing (I would assume) to take up the cross of denying themselves the satisfaction of acting on their desires.

So the question becomes, istm, not, "Are we attempting to portray a 'gay culture' as 'normal' within the Orthodox Church?" but rather, "Since there are members of the Orthodox Church who struggle with this particular and relatively unknown-about cross, how are we, as brothers and sisters to these people, going to be able to reach out to them in compassion and understanding when we have precious little actual life experience in this area, if any?"

Leaving aside the viewpoint of the Church........I wish they would. I am sick to death of the attempt to portray a "gay culture" as "normal". It is no more normal than bestiality is normal.

Errr.... If you're gonna put aside the teaching of the Church, the same thing could be said about monastic culture, which is also a life against nature. Perhaps we need to not put aside the teaching of the Church. Perhaps what we need to do is listen to the whole teaching of the Church, and not only those parts which suit our agenda.The Orthodox Church also teaches us to love and have compassion and not to judge and that everything can be saved. It is the psychotic protestant TV "evangelists" who teach people to have the attitude: "It's nothing personal, but God told me to hate you and make you feel inferior and unwelcome."

« Last Edit: January 31, 2006, 05:08:32 PM by ozgeorge »

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Really? Is that as recent as NT writings such as Romans ch. 1 which condemn you know what? We wouldn't want to offend your 21'st century sensibilities and all the left - wing buddies you hang out with in Seattle so maybe we should just leave it at that.

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"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity

Really? Is that as recent as NT writings such as Romans ch. 1 which condemn you know what? We wouldn't want to offend your 21'st century sensibilities and all the left - wing buddies you hang out with in Seattle so maybe we should just leave it at that.

I think that with most of these negative responses, it has more to do with personal prejudice then "defending" the Church's teachings. Many hide behind the Church''s teaching if they think it fits in with a particular "hate" of theirs. Tikhon, you are an inspiration and thank you for speaking up!!!

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For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like!-

Well, it's been three months, but the movie finally came to our local theatre here in country NSW yeaterday (yes, life runs at a rather slower pace here in our little mountain village) , and I went and saw it tonight. Excellently shot. Beautiful landscape. But possibly the most challenging and depressing film I've seen. I need a cognac....

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.