"If it gets to the point where I’m “dealing” with anger, it’s too late. It’s like the guy who’s entered a golf tournament and he’s practicing and the old pro comes along and says, “If you haven’t got it by now, you’re not going to get it before the tournament’s over.” It’s the same with getting angry. By the time the reactive process is underway, it’s too late. By practicing meditation and doing mind training, we can avoid being caught up in the reactivity of anger and can stay present."

Ken McLeod

Anger takes many forms from irritability to rage and jealousy. It is a feeling inside produced by thoughts. I remember reading somewhere that its basis is a feeling of having been hurt - the anger is often a reaction to something hurtful someone has said or done to us. Or events in life didn't go the way we wanted them to.

Since I have been thinking lately about roles, anger seems often caused by someone threatening a role we play by not reciprocating, by not playing
Dao Yheng: ...by not playing their counter-role that complements ours, properly. Our spouses, girl/boyfiends, children, parents, bosses, don't treat us with the respect we think our role deserves.

My way of working with this is to immediately identify the sensation of anger itself, investigating the feeling in my body. Where is it? How does it feel? Is it still there? - rather than stay in my mind churning and magnifying the thoughts that in turn will strengthen the feelings. Tonglen practice also helps here. It's best to open to the feeling too, to stay with it if possible and not try to avoid or repress it. That only saves it up for a re-appearance at another time. Some teachers advise reliving angry incidents later in meditation if we haven't had time to investigate the feelings involved because of time pressure in real life.

I do find in my own life that I have developed lots more equanimity through my meditation practice, and anger does not affect me nearly as much nowadays. It can be interesting in a way to
Dao Yheng: ...to notice and investigate what triggers angry thoughts when you have the capacity not to be carried away by them..
Dao Yheng: sorry, not sure if that's helpful or not :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks Dao, it's helpful :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ty, Dao.
Dao Yheng: I did really enjoy reading your report this week, Zen, so there's a hidden agenda there :)
Zen (zen.arado): ty Dao
Zen (zen.arado): not sure resurrecting anger is the right way to go myself
Zen (zen.arado): but...
Zen (zen.arado): usually in RL we don't have time to work with these things
Zen (zen.arado): and just bury the anger
Dao Yheng: yes, that's an interesting experiment -- resurrecting anger in such a way that it doesn't just take over your emotions again
Avy Runner: /me nods
Zen (zen.arado): maybe that is the point though
Xeno Octavia: for me anger is solved by self-responsibility --where else is it then anger at self
Zen (zen.arado): to have time to stay with the emotions
Avy Runner: how does that work for you Xeno, I mean what precisely is it you mean
Xeno Octavia: emotions are avoiding the feeling
Zen (zen.arado): not sure of distinction between emotions and feelings?
Zen (zen.arado): Xeno?
Xeno Octavia: i mean if i get angry [when used to] i would find out why I'm angry rather than other making so --then i see its my choice and so throw away
Zen (zen.arado): aren't they the same thing?
Zen (zen.arado): 'why' can be difficult
Xeno Octavia: emotions are the avoidance of feeling --runs away from ore rounds around but doesnt allow getting into
Avy Runner: hmmmm, I'm afraid sometimes my anger doesn't get away that easily.....
Zen (zen.arado): you might need to uncover a lot of stuff?
Dao Yheng: I think there's a difference between waiting for that outside factor to change, and deciding for yourself to forgive or find another way...
Zen (zen.arado): agree Dao
Zen (zen.arado): taking responsibility as Xeno said
Xeno Octavia: where i s ur anger [an energy] directed
Avy Runner: emotions seems to be felt higher up in the body, disconnected from grounding, where feelings are more grounded, that is to me
Dao Yheng: maybe that's part of the "taking responsibility"
Zen (zen.arado): instead of blaming others
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me agrees with Ken McLeod that the time to "deal" with anger is before you feel it . . .
Zen (zen.arado): and life in general
Dao Yheng: Avy, yes, I've noticed that myself
Agatha Macbeth: /me agrees with Bruce
Zen (zen.arado): yes...from our daily practice
Dao Yheng: I actually didn't totally agree with Ken M though :)
Dao Yheng: even after we get angry, there's still a chance
Xeno Octavia: feelings are natural --- emotions manufactured culturally
Zen (zen.arado): hmmm...ok Xeno
Dao Yheng: otherwise, wouldn't it continue on forever, just growing and growing?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): sure, there is always a chance. . .
Avy Runner: yes, like becoming aware of it is the first step, first that 'follows' the anger
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): "By the time the reactive process is underway, it’s too late. By practicing meditation and doing mind training, we can avoid being caught up in the reactivity of anger and can stay present."
Xeno Octavia: ken got it wrong since emotions [anger are unconscious response to feelings
Zen (zen.arado): yes..it's seeing the reactivity rather than being carried away isn't it?
Xeno Octavia: hi Atari
Zen (zen.arado): so we bring this unconsciousness to light?
Xeno Octavia: great skirt
Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Xeno :) hi everyone
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Atari
Avy Runner: hi Atara
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Atari
Ataraxia Azemus: Thanks :)
Zen (zen.arado): me thinks it important to go to the feeling and get out of the mind
Zen (zen.arado): rather than feed the mind
Zen (zen.arado): with more fuel
Avy Runner: to me it's a process of starting to learn to understand the triggers, the patterns that might lead to anger and to me it starts with awareness and the choice to be responsible for your own anger
Dao Yheng: yes, the dubious role that thoughts play :)
Xeno Octavia: feelings more heart than mind
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Zen (zen.arado): but noticing the associated bodily feeling
Avy Runner: and feelings are a part of that yes
Zen (zen.arado): where do you get angry?
Zen (zen.arado): I geta sick feeling in my stomach
Xeno Octavia: if i do i do in instinct and kill : ))
Dao Yheng: :))
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I feel it in my shoulders and upper chest . . . as if getting ready to slug someone -- which I've never done in my entire life.
Avy Runner: that's interesting Xeno, anger as method to survive......
Avy Runner: maybe it's not the anger we try to understand
Xeno Octavia: i only mite do that in FL and usually ban 1st
Avy Runner: but the anger that isn't beneficial
Zen (zen.arado): maybe I haven't uncovered all the sensations yet
Ataraxia Azemus: Yes, it's okay to be angry; it's a problem when it becomes a habitual response to anything new, or an act of total destruction
Xeno Octavia: anger is energy and if u waste it u are losing its value
Zen (zen.arado): or is that too analytical?
Zen (zen.arado): yes there is energizing righteous energy
Xeno Octavia: wrathful Buddhas
Avy Runner: right :)
Zen (zen.arado): it's when anger is because of an inured slf image that is harmful?
Xeno Octavia: the obverse of all peaceful Buddhas
Avy Runner: I don't know if there wrathful btw, but they sure look angry :)
Ataraxia Azemus: The thing not to do with anger is act in a way that perpetuates suffering
Zen (zen.arado): yes Atari
Agatha Macbeth: /me never met a wrathful Buddha
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Xeno Octavia: yes w2hy i say 'kill'
Zen (zen.arado): for ourselves or others
Mitsu Ishii: Buddhas can certainly be wrathful
Zen (zen.arado): anger usually harms ourselves
Avy Runner: suffering as in not beneficial
Agatha Macbeth: Oops
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Anger seems to be an indicator of unrevolved shadow material. . .
Xeno Octavia: thats cause ur too nice Aga
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Agatha Macbeth: Awww
Ataraxia Azemus: Yes; but I think sometimes it's a necessary response...as long as it's temporary
Ataraxia Azemus: Aw :)
Zen (zen.arado): controlled anger?
Agatha Macbeth: Aww x 2
Zen (zen.arado): cold fury?
Avy Runner: 'shadow', nice......
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Mitsu Ishii: this is a longstanding debate within Buddhism
Mitsu Ishii: whether the goal is some sort of suppression of emotion, or whether it is something different
Xeno Octavia: wrathful Buddhas are when the peaceful been too long ignored when they are warning
Zen (zen.arado): me thinks supression is bad
Ataraxia Azemus: Maybe not even controlled...but if we feel it, in a crisis, I think it's better to feel with it; to be aware of it, and not to just give into it unconsciously, but to keep it close, as something that is happening to you
Avy Runner: don't know about that Xeno
Mitsu Ishii: the tantric and vajrayana (higher) teachings tend to view it differently, where one doesn't get rid of emotion, anger, etc., but rather see it in a more direct way so it has a different effect in the world
Xeno Octavia: keeps the FIRE going
Faery Serendipity: wrathful buddha seems like an oxymoron..this is interesting
Agatha Macbeth: /me nods
Xeno Octavia: yes Mitsu
Ataraxia Azemus: Yes, Mitsu :)
Zen (zen.arado): use it yo mean?
Xeno Octavia: how so Faery
Avy Runner: that sounds like Mahayana Mitsu, Vayrayana is a technique to transform
Zen (zen.arado): transform it into something else?
Mitsu Ishii: wrathful deities in Buddhism: http://www.religionfacts.com/buddhis...ul_deities.htm
Avy Runner: or in understanding, dont' know yet
Avy Runner: it passes duality.......
Xeno Octavia: vajra is magic dzogchen is play : ))
Ataraxia Azemus: I think sometimes anger does give us an opportunity to see beyond ourselves, even if that's painful; but sometimes we need anger to hold ourselves together...it's like an emotional immune response
Dao Yheng: The seeing itself is the transformation, it seems
Agatha Macbeth: WB Zen
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): wb, Zen.
Ataraxia Azemus: wb Zen :)
Xeno Octavia: hi Zen Again
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Powerful insight, Dao.
Zen (zen.arado): every time I click on a link I crash :(
Avy Runner: yes, might be so Dao
Agatha Macbeth: Don't do it then ;-)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me suggests Zen get more RAM memory for his computer.
Zen (zen.arado): ha ha Aga - Tommy Cooperism
Xeno Octavia: is ok Zen 0---just dont get angry at the links
Avy Runner: still working on it :)
Agatha Macbeth: Just like that
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
Zen (zen.arado): have 4 gb
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): whoa!
Ataraxia Azemus: hehe
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Zen :p
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Sue your ISP.
Zen (zen.arado): don't give me any more links
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Agatha Macbeth: Zat's it Zen...
Avy Runner: /me is trying to find a link.........
Agatha Macbeth: Don't click on it!
Avy Runner: a good one, Zen is probably to click on :)
Avy Runner: no Zen, I like you here .......
Zen (zen.arado): the wrathful deities got me
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me ponders: If we truly SEE the emotion, that releases it from reactivity and frees us from the suffering it provokes.
Dao Yheng: yes, it's a real fight!! To click or not to click!
Avy Runner: hehehe
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Xeno Octavia: if we see th eemotion is BS
Dao Yheng: but then Bruce gives away the answer
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe it's a wrathful ISP
Avy Runner: (thanks Bruce for gettigng us back)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): say more, Xeno, please.
Ataraxia Azemus: /me has a wrathful ISP...not fun
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Xeno Octavia: if we see thru emotion and recognize the causing feeling we are freed
Avy Runner: BS, ISP?
Xeno Octavia: at least from that emotion
Zen (zen.arado): well I notice the feeling
Zen (zen.arado): and find that very helpful
Xeno Octavia: emotion is response to feeling anger not a real feeling but a responsive emotion
Zen (zen.arado): I don't get as angry as I usd to
Zen (zen.arado): is that other's experience
Zen (zen.arado): ?
Ataraxia Azemus: But. I think so, Bruce...what could cause harm is feeling the emotion, and beginning to respond reflexively...it's better to keep conscious responsibility for our actions, as tempting as it may be not to.
Agatha Macbeth: We calm down as we get older
Zen (zen.arado): thanks Aga :(
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me should be VERY calm by now.
Dao Yheng: :))
Agatha Macbeth: I can never work out if it's experience or fatigue...
Zen (zen.arado): so that's why :)
Gaya Ethaniel: hehe
Zen (zen.arado): well if you are older you have ben through the emotions so many times you SHOULD wise up
Agatha Macbeth: True
Xeno Octavia: actually Atari fearing feeling the emotion is how authentic feelings are avoided
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Mubarak (Egypt) is 82 years old -- and still gets quite angry. . .
Zen (zen.arado): but there's no fool like an old fool
Mitsu Ishii: haha
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
Dao Yheng: seems it can go either way -- wise up, or get into a rut
Avy Runner: right Dao
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me feels that citing age as an excuse for anything is a cop-out.
Zen (zen.arado): what about the hurt feeling that produces anger?
Ataraxia Azemus: Mm
Zen (zen.arado): nobody mentioned that
Zen (zen.arado): is that true?
Xeno Octavia: hurt also emotion not feeling
Xeno Octavia: emotional hurt rathern physical hurt
Zen (zen.arado): thought the feeling preceded the emotion
Avy Runner: (somebody thumbed me out of my chair....)
Zen (zen.arado): I feel feelings
Agatha Macbeth: /me wipes her hand
Zen (zen.arado): do I feel emotions?
Zen (zen.arado): getting confused
Zen (zen.arado): words again
Agatha Macbeth: It's only words
Xeno Octavia: u can illusion them [emotions] as feelings --but they still not
Zen (zen.arado): so feelings are the genuine feeling?
Zen (zen.arado): emotions are thought states?
Xeno Octavia: u live in a culture doesnt make a clear distinction
Zen (zen.arado): I knbow - I didn't
Xeno Octavia: feelings are natural experience that may have had upsetting effects earlier in ur life --so u rtend to avoid them
Zen (zen.arado): an emotion is more of a general description of the state produced by the mind?
Calvino Rabeni: we live in a culture that fears anger (for some good reason) and doesn't know how to work with it, other than mostly labeling it problematical
Zen (zen.arado): whereas feeling is the actual sensation in the body?
Avy Runner: I have no idea what feelings are, but they seem to guide me better then emotions
Zen (zen.arado): yes to both
Avy Runner: seeing feelings is making me open up to myself
Xeno Octavia: minds equivalent to emotions is intellectual ideas which are clung to why meditation is to not get caught in menatal thoghts
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Zen (zen.arado): that lead to feelings
Ataraxia Azemus: I think that's true of a lot of states of mind and heart, Calvino...we live in a culture that wants to be happy all the time. We forget how to appreciate other facets of life.
Avy Runner: emotions are doing the opposite, they seem to travel between brains and the higher part of our body, bounding back all the time
Zen (zen.arado): and spiral back to thoughts
Xeno Octavia: yes feelings like water a flow of thoghts
Zen (zen.arado): and they reinforce each other
Zen (zen.arado): so we break the chain
Xeno Octavia: we dont think feelings just washed over by them
Gaya Ethaniel: We are almost at the end of the hour.
Avy Runner: somebody showed me to be physically in my head, which is a quite different experience
Xeno Octavia: how so Avy
Gaya Ethaniel: I know there are already a few homework idea pages on wiki. But I'd like to suggest as per the email we discuss on forum more on future topics.
Avy Runner: being in your head is not at all bad, it is part of the body, as such it has a grounding effect, thoughts however can take us out of our body
Xeno Octavia: sounds kool Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: Perhaps people can post some ideas and start comment/discuss?
Zen (zen.arado): ok Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: [please IM me your email if you are not on wiki/Google email/forum]
Ataraxia Azemus: I should be going...sorry I missed the first part, but I'll try not to lose my temper about it :)
Dao Yheng: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: This way we can devote the whole hour on Thursday for discussion :)
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Agatha Macbeth: Grr
Ataraxia Azemus: Take care, everyone :)
Zen (zen.arado): bye Atari
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Atari take care
Xeno Octavia: was a kool meet --no angRAWR
Dao Yheng: Thanks Atari!
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Atari :)
Xeno Octavia: nite Atari
Zen (zen.arado): we're pretty cool Xeno
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Mickorod Renard: bye Atari
Gaya Ethaniel: OK let's give the forum a spin over the next week. Thanks everyone :)
Zen (zen.arado): so we don't need a topic atm?
Avy Runner: bye everyone that leaves
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks everyone :)
Xeno Octavia: yes bye all an i goes too : ))
Mitsu Ishii: bye
Zen (zen.arado): thanks all
Gaya Ethaniel: I will post some more from wiki on forum Zen. Hopefully we start talking about it and decide before next week.
Zen (zen.arado): ok
Avy Runner: /me is trying to say goodbye but as always, needs some time :)
Zen (zen.arado): beddy byes time
Mickorod Renard: bye zen
Gaya Ethaniel: Good night :)
Agatha Macbeth: Going again Zen?
Avy Runner: bye Zen :)
Zen (zen.arado): thanks for discussion
Faery Serendipity: thanks
Zen (zen.arado): off again
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Zen (zen.arado): but no links pressed
Agatha Macbeth: :p
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Faery Serendipity: how often do you meet?
Gaya Ethaniel: We meet here once a week 2 pm SLT on Thursdays.
Faery Serendipity: Nice, thank you
Gaya Ethaniel: yw
Mickorod Renard: thank you all for the in depth chat
Gaya Ethaniel: See you next week :)