[In English] This is Spool Number 50. The interviewee is Dr. Jacob Wilf. Paris, August 17, 1946. Dr. Wilf is from Katowice, Poland and is now at the conference of the ORT in Paris.

David Boder

[In German] And so, Herr Doctor, tell us again what is your name. You speak Yiddish, right?

Jacob Wilf

Yes.

David Boder

[In German/Yiddish] What is your name?

Jacob Wilf

My name [is] Jacob Wilf.

David Boder

And what kind of a doctor are you?

Jacob Wilf

Jurisprudence.

David Boder

You are a Doctor of Jurisprudence. How old are you, Doctor?

Jacob Wilf

I am forty years old.

David Boder

Oh . . . You are only forty years old. Did you practice as a lawyer?

Jacob Wilf

Yes. I am at present a lawyer in Katowice.

David Boder

And you are at present a lawyer in Katowice. Now, Doctor, I understand that you were in Russia?

Jacob Wilf

Yes.

David Boder

Right. Were you deported to Russia?

Jacob Wilf

No. I went to Russia voluntarily.

David Boder

You went from Poland to Russia.

Jacob Wilf

Yes.

David Boder

Speak a bit louder. Where . . . When did you go to Russia?

Jacob Wilf

I . . . In June of 1941 I left for Russia.

David Boder

The Germans were not yet in Katowice?

Jacob Wilf

No. The Germans were already in Katowice for a long time. I was in another partâin Lemberg.

David Boder

Oh . . . Were the Germans in Lemberg?

Jacob Wilf

They arrived near Lemberg. I was . . .

David Boder

But they were not yet there?

Jacob Wilf

Not yet.

David Boder

So you . . . The Germans were in Katowice before they were in Lemberg?

Jacob Wilf

They were in Katowice already in '39.

David Boder

And they came to Lemberg?

Jacob Wilf

The 30th of June, 1941.

David Boder

Who defended Lemberg?

Jacob Wilf

The Poles [corrects himself], the Russians.

David Boder

The Russians have defended Lemberg and they [the Germans] occupied Lemberg afterwards.

Jacob Wilf

Yes.

David Boder

And you were in Lemberg.

Jacob Wilf

Yes.

David Boder

And so you left Lemberg for Russia.

Jacob Wilf

Yes.

David Boder

Together with the Russians, or how did that happen?

Jacob Wilf

Together with the Russiansâwith the army.

David Boder

With the army . . .

Jacob Wilf

[I was]âdrafted.

David Boder

Did many Jews leave?

Jacob Wilf

Unfortunately, few Jews left [with them].

David Boder

Unfortunately few Jews have left. What happened to those who remained?

Jacob Wilf

Those who remained . . . Ninety-eight percent were annihilated by the Germans.

David Boder

Did you by any chance know a lawyer, a Doctor Loewenherz from Danzig? [A reference to Heirich Loewenherz].

Jacob Wilf

No.

David Boder

In Lwow? You did not know him?

David Boder

He was from Gdynia, Danzig.

Jacob Wilf

No.

David Boder

Now then, tell me what happened when you left with the Russians.

Jacob Wilf

The 30th of June, 1941. I was drafted into the Red Army . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Jacob Wilf

And with the Red Army I departed. We retreated.

David Boder

How old were you?

Jacob Wilf

I was . . . thirty-four years old.

David Boder

Thirty-four . . . What did they make' of you. A common soldier?

Jacob Wilf

A common soldier.

David Boder

Yes. And you went away with the Red Army . . .

Jacob Wilf

. . . went away with the Red Army. We retreated as far as the Caucasus.

David Boder

Yes. Now . . .

Jacob Wilf

Afterward, I was there demobilized, since I was of Polish origin . . .

David Boder

Yes..

Jacob Wilf

And all who were of Polish origin were then demobilized.

David Boder

Why . . . ?

Jacob Wilf

Because at that time they did not have sufficient confidence in the Polish citizens, that they would actually participate in a struggle against the German forces [?].

David Boder

Did they know that you were a Jew?

Jacob Wilf

Yes, they knew.

David Boder

But they discharged you, too?

Jacob Wilf

Yes, as a Pole . . . [?].

David Boder

Well, so what did you do when you were discharged?

Jacob Wilf

After that I retreated deep into Russia, and I came to Turkmania, the Turkmanian Republic.

David Boder

Did you have a family with you?

Jacob Wilf

The wife? I took her with me.

David Boder

Your wife. You have no children?

Jacob Wilf

No.

David Boder

No. And the wife followed with the Russian Army?

Jacob Wilf

She followed with the Russian Army . . .

David Boder

Yes..

Jacob Wilf

And in the summer, in.. in August, 1941, we arrived in Turkmania . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Jacob Wilf

There we settled.

David Boder

Yes..

Jacob Wilf

I worked there as a lawyer . . .

David Boder

They let you work as a Russian lawyer?

Jacob Wilf

The let me . . . I passed a certain examination and they permitted me to be a lawyer, a Russian lawyer.

David Boder

You speak Russian?

Jacob Wilf

I speak Russian very well.

David Boder

You speak Russian well. Where did you study law?

Jacob Wilf

I studied law in Krakow . . .

David Boder

Ah . . .

Jacob Wilf

..at the University.

David Boder

Aha.

Jacob Wilf

In '29 . . .

David Boder

Yes..

Jacob Wilf

In 1929 I graduated.

David Boder

[In Russian] So where did you learn Russian?

Jacob Wilf

I learned Russian during the German War, the German-Polish War; when I was in Lwow . . .

David Boder

Yes..

Jacob Wilf

I learned the Russian language.

David Boder

You studied the Russian language . . .

Jacob Wilf

Yes..

David Boder

[In German/Yiddish] So you . . . So you practiced law, where?

Jacob Wilf

[The interviewee reverses to Yiddish. It was my experience that the flow of speech with recently acquired second languages is greatly restrained and the expression of ideas in most cases substantially hampered. âD.P.B.] In Mary . . .

David Boder

Yes..

Jacob Wilf

..Turkmanian Republic.

David Boder

Yes..

Jacob Wilf

At the same time, after a few months' time, I lectured on legal science in a school of law.

Jacob Wilf

A Russian law school.

David Boder

Yes..

Jacob Wilf

And my wife worked in the largest factory . . .

David Boder

Yes..

Jacob Wilf

..of that factory.

David Boder

Yes..

Jacob Wilf

And we were there until the year '45; and we returned with the 'repatriation'âwe returned to Poland.

No. Now that is a story. It is, of course, very interesting, what was going on in Russia; but that is not our problem. Tell me now, how have you encountered Poland, and what is going on in Poland in general, and what is happening to the Jews in Poland. And explain to me the whole story of the pogrom of Kielce. Start with the general situation. Are you active in Jewish affairs?

Jacob Wilf

Yes. At the present time I am the Vice-Chairman of the Regional Committee of Upper Silesia . . .

David Boder

That is what, a general . . . ?

Jacob Wilf

A general Jewish Committee.

David Boder

Oh, a general Jewish . . .

Jacob Wilf

This is the only representative [body] of the Jews in Poland . . .

David Boder

Yes..

Jacob Wilf

In this committee all parties are represented . . .

David Boder

Yes..

Jacob Wilf

..which are active nowadays in the Jewish street [affairs].

David Boder

Now tell me, what kind of representation is there necessary? Are [not] all now equal citizens in Poland?

Jacob Wilf

Yes, but the Jews have special interests, which the committees have to represent.

David Boder

For instance?

Jacob Wilf

First of all, the committees were formed as relief committees. The problem was to render the first urgent assistance to the Jews who were returning from the lagers . . .

David Boder

Yes..

Jacob Wilf

..as well as to the repatriates from Russia.

David Boder

Yes..

Jacob Wilf

That was the first, main taks of the Jewish committees in Poland. Nowadays, the Jewish committee deals with other problems. The first problem which stands before the Jewish committee is to 'productivate' [to turn to, to engage in productive work] the Jewish masses.

David Boder

Who does that?

Jacob Wilf

First of all, the Jews who have lost on account of the war their . . . all their property and belongings, have lost their workshops. The committees are charged with finding the means for the Jews who live or intend to settle in Poland to rebuild their workshops.

David Boder

Now that is very interesting, Mr. Wilf. Will you speak a bit slower, because what you are telling me is very important. Now . . .

Jacob Wilf

And so the committees form the only organization which endeavors to return the Jewish masses to productivity. They endeavor that every Jew wherever he may live, should depend on his speciality, on his qualifications, that he may take his part in the reconstruction of the country and do his part in productive labors. That is what the committees which render material assistance are for . . .

David Boder

[words not clear]

Jacob Wilf

. . . to incorporate the Jews in production.

David Boder

Which committees, for instance?

Jacob Wilf

The Jewish committees in every city render material assistance to the Jews, so that they will be able to rebuild their workshops again.

David Boder

And where do they get the means?

Jacob Wilf

For a long time, just until a few months past, the exclusive help which the committees have received were the funds which they got from the Polish government.

David Boder

From the Polish government?

Jacob Wilf

Exclusively from the Polish government.

David Boder

Yes..

Jacob Wilf

In the year '45, the Joint [JDC] had not yet come to allot proper sums of money for the Jews in Poland. The sole help in 1945, which the Jewish committees had at their disposal to help the Jews, were provisions which they got from the Polish government, and sums of money.

David Boder

Yes..

Jacob Wilf

This year we have received already the money allotments from the Joint.

David Boder

Hm . . .

Jacob Wilf

Besides that, we have received provisions which are being distributed among the Jewish population.

David Boder

Aha . . . Well, and what does the ORT do there?

Jacob Wilf

In addition, in Poland the organization ORT exists, which organizes, and has already organized in cities where there is a larger Jewish population.. They organize trade schools, especially for the purpose of giving the Jewish youth, who had no opportunity to learn anything on account of the [German] occupation, the opportunity to learn a tradeâto give them a proper education. Already we have, for example [two words in Hebrew], in Upper Silesia where I am the President of the ORT . . .

David Boder

Hm . . .

Jacob Wilf

. . . We have one of the best textile schools . . . textile schools in Bielsk . . .

David Boder

Yes..

Jacob Wilf

Not far from Katowice.

David Boder

Yes..

Jacob Wilf

There we have today about thirty young people . . .

David Boder

Men or women?

Jacob Wilf

Mostly men, who have a 'bursa' there. There they live, receiving complete maintenance and study . . .

David Boder

What do you call a 'bursa?'

Jacob Wilf

That is such a home where they live and get their maintenance.

David Boder

Why is it called a 'bura?'

Jacob Wilf

That is a Polish name.

David Boder

A Polish [name]. Yes . . . Nu . . .

Jacob Wilf

Besides that, in the second center of Upper Silesia, in [the city of] Bytom, a trade school was created for toolmakers. We have obtained a special 'binion;' it has been repaired and in the next few days we shall start the actual work.

David Boder

What is a 'binion?'

Jacob Wilf

A building.

David Boder

A building. Now then . . . That is . . . how is life there in general?

Jacob Wilf

The Jews in Poland have all the opportunities to adjust themselves; because, it may be said for the first time in the history of Poland the Jews became citizens with equal rights. In fact, legally and economically. The attempts of the 'Action' to create a Jewish problem in Poland are being decisively rejected by the whole democratic population of Poland.

David Boder

Oh . . .

Jacob Wilf

Only the efforts of the 'Action' . . .

David Boder

What is the 'Action?'

Jacob Wilf

The reaction.

David Boder

Yes..

Jacob Wilf

Those are the Polish Fascists . . .

David Boder

Yes..

Jacob Wilf

. . . those who have ruled until 1939, who at that time lost power from their hands . . . They, although they are aware that they shall not get their power back, endeavor by all means at home and abroad, to impede the new democratic government of Poland in the creation and upbuilding of a new Poland on a democratic foundation. One of the methods which is being used by the Reaction, the Fascistsâthe Polish Fascists in their fight against the government are the 'Actions'âthe fights against the Jews. In Poland assaults on Jews [two words not clear] are taking place, day in and day out. That is why there was the pogrom in Kielce . . .

David Boder

Tell me about the pogrom with all the details that you know . . .

Jacob Wilf

The pogrom, as revealed by the investigation of the various official agencies which have then taken place, was inspired by foreign agents.

David Boder

Polish . . . ?

Jacob Wilf

Polish foreign agents.

David Boder

Yes..

Jacob Wilf

The direct immediate provocation was the creation of a calumny [frame-up]âthat the Jews had snatched a Polish child for the purpose of taking blood from him, but they had managed to rescue the child.

David Boder

Yes. But tell me, what did they say that the Jews needed the blood for:

Jacob Wilf

Well, that is the old calumny that the Jews are using blood of Christian children for ritual purposes.

David Boder

Was there not another calumny?

Jacob Wilf

No, in this case that was the only calumny.

David Boder

The old calumny. Well, I have heard a different story. But if you are reporting it this way . . . That is interesting. How could they need blood . . . ? It happened in July, the pogrom..

Jacob Wilf

Yes.

David Boder

So how does that tie up with the Passover?

Jacob Wilf

No. That comes from the allegation that Jews use [blood] for various other . . .

David Boder

Oh . . .

Jacob Wilf

..ritual needs the blood of Christian children.

David Boder

Not only for mazos?

Jacob Wilf

Not only for mazos. And the child was going around. It was instigated by some 'agents,' and the child was going around; and it was said [alleged] that it was hidden by the Jews in a cellar for two days . . .

David Boder

Yes..

Jacob Wilf

..And only after that he managed to escape . . .

David Boder

Did he say that there were other children [with him], or not . . . ?

Jacob Wilf

No, only about himself.

David Boder

Yes..

Jacob Wilf

Afterwards, when the investigation got under way, it was established that the child was instigated, that his own father had hidden the child and had talked him into creating such a calumny. The population, the Poles seized upon the calumnyâthe masses were instigated by specially sent-in agents. One started already in the morning . . .

David Boder

Agent sent in?

Jacob Wilf

Agents sent in from abroad . . .

David Boder

Yes..

Jacob Wilf

And already from the early morning crowds began to conglomerate. The word about the calumny spread from mouth to mouth; and so they started to drag out the Jews from the building in which the Jewish Committee of Kielce was located.

David Boder

Yes . . .

Jacob Wilf

And besides, they also grabbed Jews from the street. This pogrom lasted nearly a full day. [Two words in between]. It was also revealed that a part of the officials of the militia . . .

David Boder

Hm . . .

Jacob Wilf

. . . have also participated in the 'action.'

David Boder

Yes..

Jacob Wilf

Only at the end of the day, thanks to the intervention of the Security Authorities and of the Polish Army, was the liquidation of the pogrom accomplished.

David Boder

What was the name of the Chairman . . . president of the Jewish . . .

Jacob Wilf

The chairman of the Jewish Committee, who was also killed that day in a most disgraceful manner, was Doctor Kahane.

David Boder

Kahane..?

Jacob Wilf

Kahane.

David Boder

Hm . . .

Jacob Wilf

Only after that, when an investigation got under wayâa special commission arrived from Warsaw and all measures were taken in order to bring about security for those Jews who still remained. They were transported in special automobiles to Lodz.

David Boder

The ones from Kielce?

Jacob Wilf

The ones from Kielce. And already in a few days, in order to convince [to silence?] the Polish masses, the strong hand of the Polish government, in a strong reaction against the events [?] in Kielce, revealed itself in the fact that the trial of the main instigators of the pogrom took place in only a few days, and within only ten days nine Poles were sentenced to death, and four days afterwards the death penalty was executed.

David Boder

So you think that the events of the pogrom will help to quieten things down, that the population will be pacified?

Jacob Wilf

The situation already now is such that thanks to the strong hand of the Polish government, which has responded so sharply to the pogrom of Kielce, a firm order [calm] has emerged [all] over the country; more so, since the working massesâthe Polish working masses have held special meetings in all cities, and have mobilized the Polish masses for a struggle against the Fascistsâthe Polish Fascists. The workersâthe Polish workers, have demonstrated at meetings that they have proved to the Polish people that these pogroms are not only directed against the Jews, but that the hand that beats and kills the . . . the Polish 'democrats' [democratic people], the hand of intervention which fights against the Polish government, is provoking such pogroms in order to harm [the prestige, to prejudice against] the Polish people in [the eyes of] foreign countries; and in order to evoke unrest at home. And the effect is that during recent times order [calm] was established at all levelsâmore so, that the government takes all possible measures toward the aim that such events should not repeat themselves anymore. One of the measures is that the Polich government has released special pieces of armament to all Jewish committeesâto all Jewish institutions; and they are specially guarded by the agencies of security. And so we hope that . . . that there shall not be repetitions of that what has happened.

David Boder

Well, did they permit the Jews to possess arms?

Jacob Wilf

All Jews who work in the Jewish committees, who occupy positions of responsibility . . .

David Boder

Yes..

Jacob Wilf

..have the right, and have received arms, and permission to bear arms on their person.

David Boder

Now tell me, one sees presently in Paris a lot of Jews who fled from Poland during the last few weeks.

Jacob Wilf

Yes. It is clear that in connection with the pogroms of Kielce a psychosis has come about within the Jewish masses . . . There was a time, a few weeks after the Kielce pogroms, that substantial groups of Jews from various regions of Poland have departed, for the sole purpose of saving their bare lives. But we must say that besides the objective conditions which have created the alarmed [?] mood among the Jews in Poland, there were different, additional factors which have created the mood of alarm despair[?]. A number of irresponsible community [last word in Hebrew] workers have taken advantage . . .

David Boder

. . . irresponsible what . . . ? [The corresponding words did not sound clear in the actual interview, although they were understandable in part from context on the wire].

Jacob Wilf

. . . community [same word in Hebrew] workers . . . [repeats in German] community workers have taken advantage of the conditions; the objective factors, the alarmed mood which was brought about by the occurrence of the Kielce pogroms [He often uses the plural for this word], and started to call a special . . . to use a special propagandaâreinforcing the mood of alarm [unrest], so that the Jews should get away. In fact . . .

David Boder

..so that the Jews should flee?

Jacob Wilf

..so that the Jews should flee; notwithstanding that at this time no real possibilities for emigration of the Jew are available. It is clear that for every Jew who has chances for emigration, it is proper and timely to . . . to leave [the country]. This view is also shared by the representatives of the Polish government, who have announced that they shall support the aspirations of the Jews to emigrate by legal methods. On the other hand, the Polish government in the interests of the Polish . . . the Jewish masses are against the moods of unrest and against the fact that the Jews should emigrate chaotically without an aim and without legal facilities of emigration. We deal here with a situation that would enhance the sufferings, the deprivations which are being undergone at present, by our brother refugees [?] from Poland, in the German lagers of the English and American occupation [zones]. That is how the situation in Poland has recently quieted down. There now exists in Poland a Jewish community [last word in Hebrew].

. . . of the Jewish masses in Poland. A community of a hundred and thirty to a hundred and forty thousand Jews, who have the greatest desire to remain in Poland, who occupy responsible positions in the economy and government. They work . . .

David Boder

Does the Polish government have Jews in the government?

Jacob Wilf

The Polish government has a policy that every Jew who possesses the proper qualifications, and wants to workâwants to undertake to serve the governmentâoffers them all the possibilities to occupy the highest government posts, provided they have the corresponding qualifications. That is why we now have in the Polish government responsible men of state. We have Jews who occupy responsible positions of government, regardless of [the fact] that they are Jews. They occupy their posts because they possess the proper qualifications. Besides, that the Jewish committee has recently succeeded in incorporating the Jews into the heavy industries. In the coal minesâwe have many workers nowadays who work [deep] under the ground as miners . . .

David Boder

Jewish?

Jacob Wilf

Jewish . . . In Upper Silesia and Lower Silesia. All these Jews, especially those who have been incorporated in the industriesâwho are engaged in productive workâhave the desire to remain in Poland, if only because they see that they have in the democratic government of Poland a near and devoted ally, which offers any guaranty that they shall be able to exist both nationally and socially . . . We Jews in Poland are given to the idea that the lot of the Jewish peopleâthe aim of the Jewish people is intertwined with the coming to power of democracy all over the world. When democracy shall come to power, we shall be victorious all over the world. We hope, and we are sure that the tomorrow for the Jewish people will be a safer and happier [?]one; not like it is today. We Jews in Poland desire to take an active part in the reinforcement in the build-up of democracy in Poland because we believe that this is one of the most important steps for the reinforcement of democracy in the whole world. We combine our lot with the victory of democracy in Poland. And so just as we have faith in the victory of democracy in the whole world, so we are sure that democracy will win in Poland and that is how all the economic and objective conditions for the rebuilding of a new, healthy Jewish community in Poland will be brought about.

David Boder

Now tell me, how many Jews have remained in Poland?

Jacob Wilf

Nowadays we have in Poland a population of a hundred and thirty to a hundred and forty thousand Jews.

David Boder

That is all . . . all that has remained of the Jews in Poland?

Jacob Wilf

That is what has remained after a part of the Jews have left Poland . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Jacob Wilf

. . . for various countries.

David Boder

How many . . . How many, do you estimate, have left?

Jacob Wilf

We estimate that during the time of repatriation, within a year . . . about a year, the number who have left comes to about a hundred thousand Jews.

David Boder

A hundred thousand . . . Now, altogether how many Jews were there in Poland before the war?

Jacob Wilf

Before the war there were three and half million Jews in Poland.

David Boder

That is all?

Jacob Wilf

That was the Jewish population in Poland.

David Boder

And what was the population in Poland?

Jacob Wilf

Pardon . . .

David Boder

. . . the whole population of Poland?

Jacob Wilf

The total population of Poland was about thirty million.

David Boder

So the Jews constituted about twelve percent.

Jacob Wilf

Yes.

David Boder

All right. And what is the Polish population now, according to new estimates?

Jacob Wilf

According to new estimates it is [twenty-] four . . . twenty-two million.

David Boder

How come?

Jacob Wilf

Because the rest were killed off in Poland, and part are still outside the country. [He refers apparently to the Andres' regiments, and other Poles who were taken to Germany as slave laborers, or fled to Russia and remained there].

David Boder

Yes. And then a part of Poland has been taken by Russia. Isn't that so?

Jacob Wilf

Yes. But they, according to an accord between Russia and Poland, have repatriated themselves to the regions which form present day Poland.

David Boder

Now then, at present, with a Polish population of twenty-two million . . .

Jacob Wilf

Yes . . .

David Boder

. . . and about one hundred and fifty thousand Jews . . .

Jacob Wilf

Yes.

David Boder

. . . the . . . the population of the Jews amounts to less than one percent?

Jacob Wilf

Yes.

David Boder

And that has remained of all the Jews in Poland?

Jacob Wilf

That has remained . . . in total there have remained of the Jews percent-wise, . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Jacob Wilf

. . . two percent of the former Jewish population of Poland.

David Boder

And you say . . .

Jacob Wilf

Ninety-eight percent of the Polish Jews, those who were in the country during the occupation . . . not counting those who were abroad . . .

David Boder

Yes..

Jacob Wilf

Ninety-eight percent of the Polish Jews who were there during the occupation have been murdered. There remained onlyâthey saved themselves on so-called Arian, Christian papers . . .

David Boder

Yes..

Jacob Wilf

. . . These have saved themselves [a few words in Hebrew] in certain numbers [??].

David Boder

[Pause] Now, Mr. Wilf, that is a very interesting point of view. Of course . . . now, what would you think would be the best solution of the problem for the Jews who are now all overâin the German lagers, here in France? For example, I understand that last week a whole Yeshiva [Hebrew theological college] arrived from Lodz, and still more are coming from there. Now what do you think . . . what shall be done with all these people?

Jacob Wilf

This is precisely the incorrect approach taken on the part of the social [political] parties [?]. To us it is clear that since there are Jews in Poland who desire to emigrate to their relatives, or who let us say, those who following an ideological view wish to go to the Land of Israel . . . it is clear that such people should be given a chance [to do so]. But the social agencies [?] who deal with this problem should and must first of all establish emigration opportunitiesâlegal human emigration opportunities; not to lead out of Poland the Jews in a state of chaos. More so, since 'objective' facilities are not available for it. To lead them into lagers, while we are being informed that the Jews in the German lagers live under very hard economic conditions . . . very hard economic conditions . . . and, in addition to it, there are at presentâat this time there are no legal facilities to lead out the Jews anywhere, into some land where they could find a place of [safe] settlement. At present they sit around in the lager waiting to receive either 'certificates' for the Land of Israel, or emigration permits for other countries. It is clear that this situationâthe liquidation of the Jewish lagers in Germanyâwill take no less than two years; and the sufferings of the Jews during these two yearsâthe life of the Jews in the lagersâis obviously [to be] very hard.

David Boder

[A long pause] Would you really take it unto yourself to tell the Polish Jews who now dwell in Germany, or in France, that it is safe for them . . . for them to return to Poland?

Jacob Wilf

We have already cases at present . . . although these are isolated cases . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Jacob Wilf

Very few cases, but there are cases where Jews are returning to Poland. Because, as I have already stated, if there are Jews who consider that there is no safety for them to live in Poland, or who want to leave for other reasons, it is clear that for such reasons they will have a chance to leave. Because the Polish government does not impose obstructions against departure. But it seems clear that since there are no proper conditions to live in the lagers of Germany, that it would be more rational, logical, to remain in Polandâto make contact with relatives in America, in Canada, [or] in other countriesâto obtain immigration permits, and to jorney directly from Poland to their relatives and not to go through with one of the most horrible interludes as we picture to ourselves the lagers of Germany.

David Boder

[Pause] Are there some other instances that you would like to describe? You say that the Jews are active in other things. Have the Jewish professors returned to the University of Warsawâto the other universities?

Jacob Wilf

What concerns the Jewish intelligentsia in Poland . . . most of them were murdered during the time of the occupation. But those who are at present in Polandâthey continue working in their previous positions.

David Boder

[Pause] Anything else you want to talk about? About the whole situation? Do you have anything to add?

Jacob Wilf

I just want to make this remark . . . that we, the Jews in Poland, the Jewish committees in Poland, devote ourselves since recently, not only to the great activities of relief, but direct especially our attention [efforts] toward the goal that every Jew should be able to rebuild his former workshop . . . endeavor to create all the conditions so that the Jews will be able to work productivelyâthat they should rebuild in time [?] the Jewish life in Polandâbuild-up again the Jewish community of Poland. Cultural institutions are being created nowadays in Poland. We have now in Poland a union of Jewish writers [or a Jewish Literary Society]; we have two Jewish theaters; and we are endeavoring to reconstruct not only the Jewish economic life of Poland but we are endeavoring to build up the cultural life. We are endeavoring that this small Jewish community in Poland should again be a substantial Jewish community like before the war, and we endeavor that the Jewish Yishuv in Poland . . .

David Boder

What is a 'Jewish Yishuv?' [He had used the term all the time during the interview and I understood him well from the context. However, I asked the question just to make sure the meaning of the term.]

Jacob Wilf

The Jewish community [commonwealth] in Poland . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Jacob Wilf

. . . that just as they have taken an active part during the time of the war with the German invaders; just as the Jews have taken an active part during the war on all fronts, be it in the war at the front, be it with the partisans, or in preparation of revolts. Just in the same manner, we Jews who are today in Poland desire to take part in the building up of a new Polish militia [army] on the basis of a new democratic principle. We desire to have a great part in the strengthening of democracy.

David Boder

Now tell me this, something about Russia. You told me that you have worked as a lawyer. Did the Russians permit one to practice privately . . . privately as a lawyer? And you were getting privately paid by the people for your services?

Jacob Wilf

The legal profession in Russia forms a guild . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Jacob Wilf

. . . a 'collective' [a cooperative].

David Boder

Yes . . .

Jacob Wilf

Everyone who has the proper qualification, joins the collective in the corresponding city and becomes a member of the legal profession . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Jacob Wilf

. . . which renders legal services to the populationâappears at trials and deals with all Jewish problems [corrects himself], all Juridicial problems.

David Boder

Juridicial . . .

Jacob Wilf

The salary received by the lawyer in Russia is a percent of that what the client pays to the . . .

David Boder

. . . to the cooperative?

Jacob Wilf

. . . to the cooperative.

David Boder

Oh. Is the client able to choose which lawyer he wants?

Jacob Wilf

The client comes to the juridicial cooperative and demands specifically this or the other lawyer.

David Boder

Yes . . .

Jacob Wilf

In this way lawyers who have a greater juridicial prestige, greater juridicial abilities . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Jacob Wilf

. . . education . . .

David Boder

Yes . . .

Jacob Wilf

. . . have the right to take advantage of the better opportunities, and have a greater legal practice than other lawyers who are 'weaker' and . . . and [word not clear].

David Boder

Could you tell me about some interesting cases that you had during your whole period of [legal] practice?

Jacob Wilf

During the time that I spent in Russia I participated very often, and that in spite of the fact that I came from Poland . . . So, in time, since I had been working, I was admitted to the trials against those who acted [?] during the war against the Russian government.

David Boder

Hm . . .

Jacob Wilf

Those were the so-called counter-revolutionary trials.

David Boder

Yes . . .

Jacob Wilf

And I was established as a lawyer in spite of the fact that I took part in the so-called counter-revolutionary trials . . .

David Boder

You defended them?

Jacob Wilf

. . . I defended [them]. The governmentâthe Soviet governmentâgives anyone who is indicted [and] that is already provided for in the Constitution, the right to have a defender [a lawyer, legal council]. He has a right to choose council; and if he has no council the government provides one. And so it happened often, that I had a chance to represent such [people] in counter-revolutionary trials; and I must affirm that they had all the rights of defense just like in any other country.

David Boder

Did you ever win [such] a case?

Jacob Wilf

There were cases when there were indicted citizensâSoviet citizens, also Polish citizens -for counter-revolutionary agitation and propaganda. And as a consequence [in course of] the trial, it was often revealed that the testimonies of the witnesses were not correct and there were often cases that the people were set free.

David Boder

That was not a military court?

Jacob Wilf

No. Such special general courts which handled all other cases; and they also decide the cases of the counter-revolutionary activities.

David Boder

Did they have a jury? [Repeats the term in Russian].

Jacob Wilf

There in Russia it is arranged that there is a president [presiding judge] who is elected, and in addition there are peoples' representatives.

David Boder

How many?

Jacob Wilf

Two.

David Boder

And they handle [?] the trial?

Jacob Wilf

Yes.

David Boder

Thank you very much, Mr. Wilf. This was a special reportâa special message [Wire apparently terminates in the middle of the sentence].