Tom Brady Becomes A Buccaneer

Me earlier this month, when the Chargers were the expected landing spot and people were floating the idea of the 49ers trading Jimmy:

Tampa Bay Buccaneers – I’m surprised this isn’t a bigger actual rumor. Winston appears to be on his way out (provided he doesn’t intercept himself) and Tampa is honestly a lot closer than a lot of people realize. Bruce Arians would probably love an old fart smartypants like Brady who could understand his system, plus a defense and Mike Evans! This is honestly a superb fit. Also TB stands for Tom Brady and Tampa Bay. Think of the merchandise!

I can’t say I called it, because I still expected him to go back to New England, but I will say I saw this as a big option when (from my vantage point at least) nobody was really considering it yet. I’ve had a lot of family members and friends who aren’t as deep into football as I am asking me about it, seemingly very puzzled as to why this was his choice out of everywhere he’d go. I always thought this was actually one of the best options for him. Tampa was a smart QB away from making the playoffs last year. They are absolutely loaded at WR (Something Brady has been missing, especially in 2019). They have a smart coach with an excellent offensive mind who requires a smart QB to really understand his system; Brady is a student of the game with roughly 10 decades of experience. They have a defense to shoulder the burden and keep it from being Brady Airmail 24/7. It was an NFC team, away from his usual haunts, on a franchise with very little history regarding his previous employer, so no weird baggage. On top of that, they seem to be willing to let him Lebron the team, apparently offering him some degree of roster control. LeBrady. If there is a QB who could command that, and maybe actually deserve it, it’s the guy who kisses his own son on the mouth.

I’m incredibly excited for this move in so many ways. We are finally in a new era. Yes, Belichick is still running the Pats. Yes, Brady is still in the league. But this is new. It is fresh. Best of all, we can finally start to address the biggest question to Brady’s legacy. Is he a system QB?

Despite already being considered the greatest player of all time (The GPOAT, if you will), this is the one criticism that Brady has never been able to truly shake off. How much of his success is due to Tom Brady, and how much of it is due to Bill Belichick and the Patriots organization? Peyton Manning took 4 coaches to a super bowl, and two of those coaches were ass. Hell you could even make a case Tony Dungy wasn’t a big reason for the Colts success. Peyton always felt like the main reason his teams had success (outside his final year). You could never really make that argument with Brady, because he always had the emperor running the show. Is Tom Brady the Tom Brady we know and love if he’s stuck on the Chargers or Panthers or god forbid, the Browns? We will never truly know how much success is due to his circumstances compared to his actual ability, because Tom Brady has also been one of the most fortunate players in existence. It must be nice playing in a division that never put up much genuine competition for 2 decades.

If Tom goes out and wins a Super Bowl with Tampa, that’s it. No possible criticism can remain. No blemish on his legacy to be whispered in dark corners. Even noted haters like myself would be forced to capitulate and hail our overlord. There’s even a part of me that is rooting for him to go out and do it.

On the other hand, if Tom doesn’t win and the Patriots do, that’s damaging to his legacy in ways that excite me. If Bill Belichick wins a super bowl with Andy Dalton or someone similar, I will forever scream SYSTEM QB from the rooftops with such glee I might get arrested for scaring old ladies. Please note, I honestly don’t want either of these scenarios. I’d rather not see either the Patriots or Tom Brady in the super bowl again. I’ve had quite enough of that.

I also don’t expect either of them back. Tom wasn’t really the issue last year in New England and a new QB isn’t going to fix their line or add good weapons. I can only see a Russ type QB doing okay on that offense. Dalton is going to have the same problems and be worse. Cam isn’t really elusive so he’d get hurt. If the Patriots swindle the Texans for Watson, then we are in trouble. But Tom also has a tougher road. He’s only got a couple seasons left, and now he’s in a division that doesn’t suck. The Saints are led by another all-time great and are a better team. The Falcons show up from time to time in the Matt Ryan era. The Panthers are rebuilding so they aren’t much threat, yet. Tom could lead this team to the playoffs and still end up as the wildcard thanks to the Saints.

I think ultimately this is a case of the band breaking up thanks to big egos, but those two egos working together is what made the band work. Fun Dave lore: I’ve been a massive Pink Floyd fan since high school. They were my defining band as a youth. I see Tom Brady and Belichick as David Gilmour and Roger Waters. Waters was the brains and the leader, a man with impeccable artistic vision. But Gilmour was the soul. Pink Floyd fractured when the two of them stopped being able to work together, but it’s pretty clear that they needed each other to really bring out the best in the music. Waters post-Floyd is a lot of weird concept work and artsy crap that isn’t that enjoyable to listen to, seemingly more interesting in theory than execution. The Gilmour-led Pink Floyd era is mostly meandering forgettable fluff. The two of them brought out the best in each other. Tom and Bill brought out the best in each other, and I don’t think either of them will find the same success without one another. It was a magical chance pairing, and it’s over now.

Don’t we kind of already have the answer, though? I don’t know how many other games he exited over his career, but we have at least 20 games in which Brady was absent, plus the first game of 2008 when he was only present for 2 drives. Their record was 15-6.

15-6! Meanwhile, when Peyton missed the 2011 season with his neck, the Colts went 2-14. Isn’t that basically case closed? Verdict: Bill has the skill.

I’m a Police fan myself, and I always imagined Bill and Tom were more like Sting and Stewart Copeland… erasing each other’s work, physical altercations, going out to perform with broken ribs, and eventually someone shows up to practice with a knife.

If his first stint was with ANY TEAM other than the Browns, I would concede the point. But even then, he led the Browns – THE BROOOOWNS – to an 11-5 record and a playoff appearance in 1994. In case you had to look it up like me, his QBs were Vinny Testaverde (9-4) – 16 TDs to 18 INTs, and Mark Rypien (2-1) – 4 TDs to 3 INTs.

I’m not going to say Brady is a chump with no skill (well, he is now, but he wasn’t back in the day), but I think it’s pretty clear Belichick has proven time over time he can make lemonade out of horse urine on the football field.

Really? Are you going to conveniently forget that his record with Bledsoe (a QB who went to the Super Bowl) is 5-13, Matt Cassell had that good season with the Chiefs, and Jimmy G is 19-5 in San Francisco with a Super Bowl appearance?

We have a 20 game sample size of teams Brady was *actively* part of. As it pertains to “Life w/ Brady” and “Life sans Brady”, *those* are what you focus on. as it removes the most variables.

Belichick took Brady-led teams without Brady to a 15-6 record. 5-11 was his 1st season in NE, they lost a 1st rounder to Bill’s napkin shenanigans w/ NYJ. Judging him on that – especially when we have as large a sample size as we do *during* Brady’s tenure – isn’t as pertinent.

Matt Cassel played all or part of 11 seasons after leaving NE. 1 good season & 10 forgettable ones (some were admittedly short) is not exactly a vote in his favor.

As for Jimmy G… the 9ers beat the Packers up and down the field and he only threw EIGHT passes. He was either held back or missed opportunities in the playoffs (3 for 11 for 36 yards with 0 TDs during collapse at end of SB). His stats for the year were 3978 yards w/ 27 tds / 13 ints / 5 fumbles. Meanwhile, Daniel Jones – in 4 fewer games – threw for 3027 yards w/ 24 tds / 12 ints / 11 fumbles. And nobody is saying Daniel Jones had a historic rookie season.

If you just want to focus on the 20-games without Brady in the Brady era, let me remind you that the year he went 11-5 with Matt Cassell, he’d gone 16-0 the previous year with Brady. That’s a 5-win drop. If the Pats were to have the same drop without Brady this season, they’d have a losing record. And you can try to downplay it as much as you want but Matt Cassel did have that season of success away from Bellichick, so it’s not like Bellichick did something magical to get him to 11-5, especially with a team that had gone 16-0.

A four-game sample size with Jimmy G and Jacoby Brissett is not such a big deal, especially since each played two game-stretches and the role of a backup is to get you through a two, three, four-game stretch. And then, he only has a winning record with Jimmy G, Brissett was 1-1 (just like Matt Moore was this season with the Chiefs, and same percentage as in 2011 with the Dolphins when he was 6-6).

Also, Jimmy G was absolutely instrumental in the 9ers getting to the Super Bowl, his play down the stretch was one of the major reasons the 49ers were able to get the first seed. Not saying he’s Mahomes or Wilson, but he’s no bum, either. A 2-0 record with him as the starter isn’t some special accomplishment.

In 11 years away from New England, Cassel had ONE good season. That is not the sign of a good quarterback. The TEAM was good. BB didn’t have to do anything magical to get 11-5 that year because he built a REALLY good team. That’s my point; Brady wasn’t single-handedly dragging these guys to glory the way Peyton was with the Colts.

The 9ers had the 2nd best defense and the 2nd best running game last year. *THOSE* were instrumental in their success. I didn’t say Jimmy G was a bum, but when he’s asked to step up, he’s been average.

If you ask me, that speaks more to the overall strength of the team when Brady happened to miss time. The 08 Patriots were 1 year removed from a Super Bowl berth and the best offense of all time. When Brady came back in 2016, they went 11-1 and won a Super Bowl. I suspect if Brady missed time in a year like 2013 or 2006 when the rest of the team wasn’t as strong that the Pats would be less likely to cover it up.

Also worth noting that credit doesn’t have to be an either-or scenario. Guvren the Pats unprecedented success. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that Brady and Belichick are both he best at what they do.

I don’t disagree, and perhaps I didn’t say it strongly enough above, but I don’t think Brady was a shlub that Bill had to find ways to succeed around. I just think – generally – he gets a LOT more credit than he possibly deserves in all of this.

Bill has proven he can succeed when Brady isn’t on the field. Considering he brought in guys like Jimmy G and Cassel, it doesn’t even really matter if they suck or not. Bill drafted them, so he still gets credit for the ‘team building’ portion of things, which I think is ultimately where his skill lies.

The sad thing is we won’t even really discover if Brady can succeed without Bill, because his skills have already started to erode. If he flops in Tampa, there’s a 50/50 chance whether it’s age or no longer having Bill around.

“If his first stint was with ANY TEAM other than the Browns, I would concede the point. But even then, he led the Browns…”

This is highly disingenuous. You’re treating the Browns that Belichick coached as if they were similar to the expansion Browns that we know today. They were not even remotely similar.

The Browns that Belichick coached were a team that had made it to 3 of the last 5 AFC Champiobship games, and still had a relatively solid roster. Belichick got them one playoff win. That was his only winning season with that team before being let go. You cannot leave out that important bit of context when discussing Belichick’s coaching career. Without Brady, he has a losing record, and with the Patriots? He still has a losing record (he’s 18-19 without Tom Brady). And that record is heavily inflated by a 10-5 season where Matt Cassel failed to match half of Brady’s production on a team that went 16-0 the year before.

This is why I’ve become more convinced that Tom Brady is the greatest QB of all time over the years. Every argument against him requires you to leave out extremely important details while making up hypotheticals to downplay his accomplishments. It’s always ‘what if?’ when discussing Brady, because when you actually look at what he’s done, there’s no argument to be had. He’s the best.

Curtis freakin’ Painter started like 8-10 games that season in Indy. I don’t think there has ever existed a bigger skill gap between started and backup in the history of professional sports as Manning and Painter. Also, intentional or not they were sucking for Luck.

That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying Curtis Painter would have gone 0-8 on the same team Brady went 16-0 with and Cassel went 11-5 with because he was simply awful. A once in a generation sort of bad. Dan Orlovsky got his first win as a starter with the same team Painter failed with. Dan. Orlovsky.

We can’t really prove the intentional sucking, but I’m hearing that the Colts had a poor quality backup quarterback. The Patriots had a higher quality backup quarterback. Doesn’t that play into team building? Bill drafted/managed better than Polian, or whoever was running the Colts that year, no?

Till that year Manning had been an iron man, so putting much, if any, effort into ensuring he had a decent backup could have been considered wasted effort. (Oh hindsight.) As for the weaker team stuff, this is a criticism a lot of people make about the Colts that I just don’t think holds a lot of water. They pretty much always had weapons at WR/TE/RB as well as a pretty solid line. I mean, between just Marvin Harrison and Jeff Saturday the Colts got like 50 years of high level play. And that’s ignoring both Edgerrin James and Joseph Addai, who had decently long term success at RB.

I always felt that perception was more based on how the offense performed, not the actual quality of those players. Looking back those teams Harrison and Wayne were very good, but I’d argue their gawdy stats were because of Manning and the offense. They were never really overpowering or physically dominant. Why do I think this? Because in the playoffs they would routinely get shut down when pressed or covered by elite secondaries. Same with the O-line. Now that we know that Sack rate has a ton to do with the quarterback, we can say Manning’s low sack numbers over an extended period with multiple rosters has a ton to do with him as well. Additionally those lines often got dominated in the playoffs when they played better teams. Then their was the coaching help. Manning’s coaches almost always got outcoached in big moments. Brady has certainly done the same for his offensive lines and his weapons (except Gronk, Welker and Moss who would’ve been good anywhere). But in the coaching front, the Pats are always more prepared than their opponents. They always have the latest and greatest offensive system and always solve defensive trends the fastest. They may not have invented no huddle, fast pace, shotgun spread, pick rub, double tight end, 3rd down back, running back by committee, but they perfected them and usually brought them to the NFL. Brady doesn’t get enough credit for being able to be successful in so many styles, but at the same time the situation the Pats provides for him verses any Payton Manning team doesn’t even compare. Payton always had to play perfect for his team to succeed. Tom only needed to be perfect 10% of the time. Switch players and Manning has at least 3 but probably more Superbowls than Brady, and Brady might have success but it’s impossible to know without seeing him actually carry a team. And before the pats fans chime in, Bradys never won a Superbowl with anything less than a top 11 scoring defense and only one time did it out of the top 6. The only QB who’s had better luck with solid defense for that long was Montana who excelled on a team with the highest payroll before salary cap.

Welker did perform somewhat mediocre elsewhere. Whether that’s due to Brady or the system he was in is a huge question though, because Edelman has done essentially the same thing as Welker, but better and for a longer amount of time. That points to a great system, if you ask me, but maybe “have great QB who can play well in any type of offense” IS the system, as you mentioned. Manning never really played in different systems, but at the same time that’s sort of because Manning WAS his own OC, so it was always his system.

I think they’re Lennon-McCartney post-Beatles. Never reached the heights they reached together, but still individually successful. Bet Brady wins another one with TB in the next two years and Bellichick also wins one without Brady and it will suck

In a weird way you could argue that this move might not help Brady resolve the systems QB issue because I’m not sure what Belichick does is exactly a system, but more of a general MO. To my mind system means a fairly consistent style (such as West Coast Offence), rather than extremely well planed manipulation of a particular opponent’s weaknesses on a game to game basis.

The offense system for the Patriots under Belichick is the so called Erhardt Perkins Offense. It´s fairly complicated offense with so called option routes. You should google it, I can´t explain it very well in a single comment.

The Browns were on their way down when Belichick got there and weren’t the team they were in the 1980s. In 1989 they were 9-6-1 before bottoming out in 1990. Plus 1995 was the year where where Modell announced the move right in the middle of the season where distractions would have been had. It’s kind of a stretch to suggest Belichick sucked with the Browns with all things considered.

I would probably root for the Pats to win just to see what happens to the narrative regarding Brady’s greatness. Then again in all fairness it’s Tampa Bay, if they made it there, Brady would be given tons of credit for it.

People were ignoring the rumor that Brady’s wife Gisele wanted to be in Florida anyway, better for her fashion career. Miami is a major fashion center. She makes more than Tom, and has patiently hung around Boston for plenty long enough, now it’s her damn turn. I honestly thought he might wind up in Miami because of that, but Tampa Bay is maybe close enough.

You may not have called it in terms of how calling it usually works, but still, good job.

Also, it may be too late to determine if he’s a system QB. If he wins a SB, it proves him more than just not being a system QB, but a QB that defies age. Which brings up what would happen if he doesn’t win a SB or make it. With him being in his 40’s, one may wonder if he really is a system QB or if he’s now too old to succeed no matter what. I think I know where most people will lean, and I think I’d more likely fall in line with most people. The thought is still there, though.

As much as I hate Brady and like to poke fun at him for being Mr. Screen Pass I agree that his performance with the Bucs means basically nothing if he fails. Dude’s old as balls and played terribly last year, we’re only surprised if he does well.

After everything that Brady has accomplished over his career, I find it hard to believe that the question of him being a ‘system QB’ is still a thing at this point. When you look at Belichick’s body of work without Brady, and I mean his entire coaching career, it’s not particularly good. He has a losing record without him, and even in New England, contrary to popular belief, he still has a losing record without Brady (18-19). That alone should end the argument, but no, we still have this odd debate because, a top tier QB allowed a HC to keep his job?

Frankly, I think the argument ended in 2017. Even though Brady lost the Super Bowl that year, he proved that even when his defense is a dumpster fire, he can still step up to the plate and lead his team to victories. He had already done it once in 2011 (again in a losing effort in the Super Bowl), but for him to do it twice, and put up career numbers in both seasons (he won MVP in 2017, at age 40), I don’t think he necessarily needs Belichick to be a successful QB. Say what you will about other seasons, but those two years are more than enough proof that Brady is the system in New England, and would be successful in most situations.

Going to your point about Peyton Manning making it the Super Bowl with 4 different coaches, I have to ask, is it really fair to credit Manning for making it to all four of his Super Bowls, while discounting Brady’s 9 appearances because he did it with the same coach? Keep in mind, Manning put up these stats in both of his Super Bowl runs were he won:
7 games
5 TDs
8 INTs
220 ypg
59% comp
71.8 passer rating

Compare that to Brady’s two worst Super Bowl runs where he won, 2003-04 and 2018-19 (for the sake of having a fairer sample, I went with Brady’s 2003 run, rather than his 2001 run since he didn’t finish the second half versus Pittsburgh in the ’01 AFCC, I ran the numbers and had I included that run, it would have helped his case more than anything):
6 games
7 TDs
5 INTs
291 ypg
63% comp
84.2 passer rating

I don’t see how one guy gets credited for taking his teams to the Super Bowl, but the other guy has more to prove here. Neither of their numbers here are particularly great, but Brady was clearly better, and you could make the case that he contributed more to each run than Manning did. This isn’t even mentioning the fact that in 2006-07, Adam Vinatieri made 14 FGs for the Colts in that postseason; more than he made in any single run with the Pats.

It’s fine to think Peyton Manning is better than Tom Brady. I put those two on their own separate tier, and I think that Brady was the better QB, you won’t hear much argument from me if you thought Manning was a better pure passer in his prime. I just think the 4 coaches argument is a really bad one to use if you’re going to make that case, since Peyton Manning didn’t play particularly well in the years he did win the Super Bowl. You can’t look at Manning’s final season and tell me that he deserves all the credit for making that Super Bowl with Kubiak. You may not have meant it that way, but you certainly implied it when using that argument.

I’m one of those who refuses to consider Tom Brady as the GOAT. I fully believe he is a system QB and the only way I will call him the GOAT is if he can lead the Buccaneers to the NFC Championship game, where they will ultimately lose to the 49ers, but they have to make it there first. Joe Montana, who I consider as the GOAT led the Chiefs to the AFC Championship Game in his first year after leaving the 49ers. If Brady can’t do the same thing, then he will forever be a system QB who got real lucky with the Coach he had for 20 years.

One of the things that always bothers me about Brady is how the narrative of the Pats in the mainstream media is always about giving Brady excuses when they lose and/or giving him all the credit when they win. Hell – the Pats had the #2 scoring defense in 2017 but the narrative was about how bad the defense was. Just for comparison sake, the narrative for the 2019 Saints was about how good the defense had gotten even though they finished 13th in scoring D.

Especially when you realize that Pats were on pace to break the 77 Falcons record for least points allowed in a season since the merger before that Ravens game (oh, and the 77 Falcons played a 14 game season).