This is what happens when people get upset that the champion didn't win many races, he just finished in the top-10 35 times while their guy won 10 races and had 15 DNFs.

Any time there's a points cutoff in something based on points people will try to manipulate it. You see it all the time in soccer with teams trying to manipulate goal differentials. The only surprise is that it took NASCAR teams this long to actually swing something like this so blatantly.

The Chase has to go or this will happen again, only the next time they'll be much more subtle about it. Bring back the old system. Aside from the fact that it's better for everybody, under the old system JJ doesn't win every year, and any system where that's the case is the right one.

someone up thread suggested making the Chase 9 races, and give everyone another chance at a 'last race before the Chase.' why not just freeze the field as it was when Bowyer spun, and penalize him and his owner (and perhaps team)? could just DQ him/them for that race - 0 points - and freeze the field, thus kicking out Truex and Logano and putting Gordon (and someone else) in. this is what they should've done in the first place, IMHO.

Sugarpuss O'Shea:Maybe it's time for drivers to press for it, again. Are there fans of younger drivers to replace the aging Cup drivers who will understand this the lack of rules and consistency?

They'll never do it. The prima donna drivers nowdays haven't the balls to try. They'll keep smiling for the cameras, push their sponsor's products and not rock the boat, Simply because as it stands, the Frances own not only the bats and balls, but the ballparks as well.

The only way I see it ever happening is if either Congress steps in (anti-trust laws), or else some owner of a lot of tracks (who would gleefully take a chance to unseat the France's from their thrones) *cough* Bruton Smith *cough* got enough financial backers to offer a competing series.

As an aside, maybe the fact that ISC (the Frances) bought out/merged with Penske's track ownership company Penske Motorsports and gave Penske's son Gregory a board seat at ISC has something to do with NASCAR's hands off approach to this little Penske/Logano penalty deal.

Sugarpuss O'Shea:I've been following NASCAR for about 4 years. Every sports fan want their teams and their team's competitors to be playing on the up-and-up. But what do you do when there are inconsistent rules and a rule maker with absolute power? I guess until it hurts shareholders it doesn't matter.

There's the problem. NASCAR is a privately held monopoly, and guess which gamily has the majority in holdings?

Maybe that White House petition site should get one to the White House to ask Congress to dust off the Sherman Act and try it out on the Frances? (Much to my amusement, some idiot did file one there to ask Obama to intervene and force NASCAR put Gordon in the chase.).

NASCAR needs a rule book available to the public. As it is, only NASCAR teams can have one. (Hell, they'd make good money selling them to the curios fans.)

They need a PR department that actually communicates to the fans. Look at MWR's "rocket fuel" controversy. NASCAR promised us they'd find out just what it was that was in those manifolds, but have we ever been told? Coulda been Sterno, jellied nitromethane, or silly putty...we still don't know.

They also need to word it like the SCCA's rule book(s), wherein there is a clause that eliminates all those "gray areas"."Anything not specifically authorized by these rules is automatically prohibited."

freak7:Nobody should be biatching about this, it's absolutely the right thing to do given the circumstances.

Actually, it's not.

Look at the facts:

1.) NASCAR said they could not prove Bowyer spun intentionally. (Which quite conveniently relieves them of have to look too closely at JJ hitting the wall to gain Gordon 8 positions on the track. Joonyer was penalized the same amount of points for spinning on purpose at Bristol last year to avoid going a lap down when he had a loose wheel. Nonetheless, Bowyer got penalized the same.

2.) MWR's penalty was based entirely on Bowyer pitting twice, and Vickers pitting and then lapping slowly. Truex was totally unaware of what was happening, yet he got the shaft out of everyone with the 50 point penalty. I have still to read in the rule book where pitting at any time the pit is open is somehow "illegal". It also specifies nothing of "intent".

3.) Penske offered some form of payoff to FRM to lose a position on track, and they obliged. Once again, all on radio transcripts.

4.) NASCAR throws the book at MWR for helping a teammate, yet Penske gets "probation" for attempting (successfully) to BUY Logano's way into the top 10.

Now do you see why things aren't right? I could give a damn if Jeffy got back in, the point is Logano should have been hit as hard (or harder) than MWR for the SAME offense. To add a 13th spot just to make Jeffy happy stinks. Jeff should have taken Logano's place. And to be honest, Truex shouldn't have been docked anything...he's just out there trying to drive hard and do the best he can.

Jeff Gordon would now have 6 championshipsKurt Busch would have 0Jimmie Johnson would have 2 championships instead of 5Kevin Harvick would have 1Carl Edwards would have 2Tony Stewart would have 1 lessBrad Keselowski would still earn his from last year.

OK, I just posted this on ESPN as a reply to Ed Hinton's latest fellation of Gordon:

I can take my licks here (no pun intended), tear it apart as you please.---------------------------I guess that all cars entering pit road (unless under one of NASCAR's phony "debris cautions") will be subject to a NASCAR teardown on the spot to make absolutely sure you have a problem, or else be penalized for "pitting when not appropriate".

NASCAR is attempting to put a band-aid on a slashed jugular, and failing miserably. You want to really please the fans? Get rid of this chase crap. Make every point in every race all season long count for everyone, and there'd be no reason to point shave if you're only hurting your own chances..Kill the Lucky Dog, Kill the wave around, go back to double file restarts with lapped cars on one lane. If you get your lap back, you actually EARNED it. (Double file restarts within the last 25 laps are leaders only, just to keep that little bit of excitement.)

No more green white checker finishes unless all competitors are allowed to pit w/o loss of track position for a fuel only stop. Quit making the end of races fuel mileage contests.

Drop the engine size to 302 cid effective at the start of the 2015 season, and then remove the restrictor plates and let them race.

Get rid of the splitter and institute an old-fashioned 36-42 inch wide chin spoiler like in the 70's. Spoiler can be no lower than the lowest part of the rest of the car. (The old "rake test".) Make the drivers actually DRIVE the cars instead of whining on the radio about "aero push". Having to back off the throttle at Talladega might actually be a healthy thing to do.

Get rid of mandatory shock and spring packages, get rid of mandatory rear end gear ratios.

No more "top 35 in points" qualifying exemption. Either you get in on your time every race, or pack it up and go home. No excuses.(I don't care if your sponsor loses all that "free" TV air time. If qualifying scares you, be a little conservative and don't crash.)

Make the race purse payouts for positions 36 and lower less than the entry fee. That should force the start and parkers to have to race in order to not lose money. (NASCAR will never do this, they would be embarrassed to death if they didn't get a full field for a race.)

Lastly, make teams be able to change engines during a race. That should keep the start and parkers running around a little longer anyway, or drive them out of the sport.

crotchgrabber:Has anyone met any NASCAR fan in the history of the world who likes the chase? My dad is a math geek so he likes figuring out what the standings should be, but I think that may be the only reason for anyone to like it.

I'm going to take a load of crap for this, but I don't hate the concept of the Chase. But I do hate the execution.

1)The Chase needs to be shorter. Look at the spring Dover race and compare it to the fall Dover race. You can't win the Chase in race 3, but you can lose it there so everyone just follows the leader and just tries to play it safe. Same with Talladega. It favors certain drivers. There needs either to be rotating or random tracks in the Chase. Honestly, I'd drop three races from the schedule (probably consisting of a NH race, a Martinsville, and one of the generic D shape tracks), make the Chase 8 races, w/ one road course and rotate about 4 of the tracks and add one "wild card" weekend where they go to a new track to expand the markets but maybe can't/won't support a race every year (like Mexico City).

2) The "regular" season needs to mean something. Give the driver who wins it a trophy (or at least a banner) like every other sport. Sell the sponsorship. Call it something like the Richard Petty Award presented by Ace Hardware or some dumb crap. Give the driver bonus Chase points.

3) Don't reset the points to something ridiculous. Start with a reasonable number like 1000pts. If someone tanks the Chase, they should be able to fall to 13th (or in this case, 14th). Or don't reset the points and give eligible Chase drivers double points during the Chase.

4) Sit down with the teams for the month and hash out a clear, definitive set of competition rules. (Technical rulebook should remain separate and confidential.) Even the announcers who are former crew chiefs, drivers, and owners have to guess sometimes. A crew last week wasn't sure what they had to do to serve a penalty and ending up serving it twice. Even the replacement NFL refs didn't penalize a team then throw a flag on the next play and make them go back and correct the first penalty. It needs to be clear who calls what when, under what circumstances, and what the on-track penalty is for each infraction. (Off track penalties will always evolve.)

5) Make it clear to teams and drivers where the line is regarding social media. You don't see this problem so much in the NFL, NHL, MLB, or especially the NBA because they spell it out. When Mark Cuban talks about the officiating, he knows he's getting fined. If Denny Hamlin talks about the validity of a late race caution, tip a magic 8 ball.

killershark:Can someone explain to me what the big deal is about all of this? I'm an F1 fan and this whole situation sounds like typical team orders to me. So is it a "This is 'Murican racing!" situation or is there really a rule against team orders in NASCAR? Or was this not a case of team orders and there's something else I'm not seeing?

This is similar to the issue at Singapore. Neither was typical "team orders."

Sugarpuss O'Shea:Basically, it gives France and Helton absolute power over what they do or do not like. But NASCAR abuses the hell out of this little rule, ask Denny Hamlin. They use it as a "gag order" to keep the drivers in line with any criticism of the oh so holy NASCAR.

Until Hamlin was fined, I thought that NASCAR drivers where more free to share their opinions than in other sports.Hamlin being fined earlier this year for expressing opinions on the new car was insane.

It's worse. They started secretly fining drivers a few years ago for public comments. They're also incredibly inconsistent when it comes to their own rulings. They publicly applauded Keselowski for his tweets and photos during the red flag at Daytona then fined him at a later race for having an unapproved electronic device (his phone) in the car.

All NASCAR has in the old standby Rule 12.4A

12.4A: General Scope of PenaltiesAny member who performs an act or participates in actions deemed by NASCAR Officials as detrimental to stock car racing or to NASCAR: a fine, and/or disqualification, and/or loss of Championship points, and/or loss of finishing position(s) in the Event, and/or probation, and/or suspension.

I really hate the current rule book setup, but in all fairness, that rule has a lot of subsections.

HamstersFromHell:Tom_Slick: I still love that story. "Did we break any rules? Nope, don't ever bring that car here again."

There have been a few "outside the box" cars that you can say that about. The ones that come right to mind are:

T-Rex (of course) As an aside, I'd love to see what was so different that freaked NASCAR out.

Penske PC-23 car as set up for the 1994 Indy 500 with the Mercedes/Ilmor 500I."pushrod" engine. (Now *that* was some creative rule bending!) Of course, that car was the main reason behind the CART/IRL split.

Granatelli's STP Turbine cars.

Mazda's 787B LeMans winner. (And to a lesser extent, the Audi TDI cars when they hit the endurance racing scene.

I'd give honorable mention to Junior Johnson's Monte Carlo with DW driving at Bristol (when everyone else was running the SS variant, Jr went with a flat nose Monte Carlo for better brake cooling over "aero" and DW lapped the field up thru 3rd place.

And Bobby Allison's choice of a Pontiac LeMans over everyone else's Grand Prix..that pointed tail made it a slippery car and nigh impossible to draft.

There have been a few "outside the box" cars that you can say that about. The ones that come right to mind are:

T-Rex (of course) As an aside, I'd love to see what was so different that freaked NASCAR out.

Penske PC-23 car as set up for the 1994 Indy 500 with the Mercedes/Ilmor 500I."pushrod" engine. (Now *that* was some creative rule bending!) Of course, that car was the main reason behind the CART/IRL split.

Granatelli's STP Turbine cars.

Mazda's 787B LeMans winner. (And to a lesser extent, the Audi TDI cars when they hit the endurance racing scene.

I'd give honorable mention to Junior Johnson's Monte Carlo with DW driving at Bristol (when everyone else was running the SS variant, Jr went with a flat nose Monte Carlo for better brake cooling over "aero" and DW lapped the field up thru 3rd place.

And Bobby Allison's choice of a Pontiac LeMans over everyone else's Grand Prix..that pointed tail made it a slippery car and nigh impossible to draft.

Stikman72:Jeff Gordon is one of the top 10 athletes of the past 25 years, hands down. He was flat out screwed and clearly this move is the only possible outcome that will bring credibility back to the Association.

What will bring credibility back to NASCAR is having a rule book set in stone for the duration of the season, from Daytona to Homestead.

killershark:Can someone explain to me what the big deal is about all of this? I'm an F1 fan and this whole situation sounds like typical team orders to me. So is it a "This is 'Murican racing!" situation or is there really a rule against team orders in NASCAR? Or was this not a case of team orders and there's something else I'm not seeing?

The problem with "team orders" in NASCAR is that not all owners are equal. Some own four cars, some two. Single-car operations are always struggling. In F1 every team has two cars that run the same set of sponsors.

lack of warmth:13 drivers still in it for the championship and yet they still put 43 cars on the track. For the life of me, I can't understand why they still put 43 cars on the track when 3 - 5 cars will drop out on their own before 20 laps are over. No wrecks or engine problems, the guys basically show up with one set of tires and call it a day. Why keep these guys around at all? Look at the standing, there are barely 35 drivers who even had a chance at the beginning of the season, 19 drivers didn't even earn 1 point yet 71 drivers have their names slapped on the list. I get why Indycar don't mess around with too many drivers.

NASCAR won't pull the start and parkers because to have less than a full 43 car field would be an embarassment to them.

They did reduce the amount paid in purse money to them, but they still make a profit off entering. Simple fix would be to pay less than entry fee for 36th and below.

lack of warmth:13 drivers still in it for the championship and yet they still put 43 cars on the track. For the life of me, I can't understand why they still put 43 cars on the track when 3 - 5 cars will drop out on their own before 20 laps are over. No wrecks or engine problems, the guys basically show up with one set of tires and call it a day. Why keep these guys around at all? Look at the standing, there are barely 35 drivers who even had a chance at the beginning of the season, 19 drivers didn't even earn 1 point yet 71 drivers have their names slapped on the list. I get why Indycar don't mess around with too many drivers.

1) Someone outside the Chase could still get a victory or at least end up in the money. They still have sponsors to keep happy and race operations to support.2) Seat time in a race is still seat time. It's a great time to do development work on your new engine package or race setup or even your driver.3) The teammates outside the chase can still help the teammates in the chase by being drafting partners or pitting together.

lack of warmth:13 drivers still in it for the championship and yet they still put 43 cars on the track. For the life of me, I can't understand why they still put 43 cars on the track when 3 - 5 cars will drop out on their own before 20 laps are over. No wrecks or engine problems, the guys basically show up with one set of tires and call it a day. Why keep these guys around at all? Look at the standing, there are barely 35 drivers who even had a chance at the beginning of the season, 19 drivers didn't even earn 1 point yet 71 drivers have their names slapped on the list. I get why Indycar don't mess around with too many drivers.

Sadly, no. I thought for sure they'd park him after his stunt at Phoenix last year. Instead he got a "Now Jeffy, play nice.." warning. Which is another thing I don't understand. Jeff can put another driver into the wall (And technically, Clint could have been killed by that little stunt.) and gets away with a slap on the wrist. But pit late in the race to give your team mate a bump? That's $300,000 and a Congressional hearing. Really?

Well there are those who are so big in the sport that they wouldn't dare suspend them lest they have a revolt by the fans. Did they suspend Richard Petty when he won with an engine that was too big? Did they fine Dale Earnhardt for putting drivers into the wall?

HamstersFromHell:StormChaser: When did Jeff Gordon turn into such a toddler? His Twitter feed after the MWR punishment was the social media equivalent of telling a 2 year old they can't have ice cream before dinner. And for what? So he could get into the chase and continue to blow engines, crash cars, and generally be irrelevant like he has been all season?

Gordon is a top 20 driver at best. He just had some damned good cars under him when Evernham was his crew chief. (Anyone who can build a car so badass that while not breaking a single rule, bent the rulebook so badly that NASCAR told them they never want to see that car again ever is good.) Same for JJ, he'd be lucky to make the chase w/o Knaus masterminding the operation. People seem to forget how much a good crew does for you.

But Knauss is also a really huge whiner. He literally traded his pit crew mid-race for Gordon's pit crew. I've never seen anything like it before or since.

StormChaser:When did Jeff Gordon turn into such a toddler? His Twitter feed after the MWR punishment was the social media equivalent of telling a 2 year old they can't have ice cream before dinner. And for what? So he could get into the chase and continue to blow engines, crash cars, and generally be irrelevant like he has been all season?

Gordon is a top 20 driver at best. He just had some damned good cars under him when Evernham was his crew chief. (Anyone who can build a car so badass that while not breaking a single rule, bent the rulebook so badly that NASCAR told them they never want to see that car again ever is good.) Same for JJ, he'd be lucky to make the chase w/o Knaus masterminding the operation. People seem to forget how much a good crew does for you.

Sadly, no. I thought for sure they'd park him after his stunt at Phoenix last year. Instead he got a "Now Jeffy, play nice.." warning. Which is another thing I don't understand. Jeff can put another driver into the wall (And technically, Clint could have been killed by that little stunt.) and gets away with a slap on the wrist. But pit late in the race to give your team mate a bump? That's $300,000 and a Congressional hearing. Really?

Well there are those who are so big in the sport that they wouldn't dare suspend them lest they have a revolt by the fans. Did they suspend Richard Petty when he won with an engine that was too big? Did they fine Dale Earnhardt for putting drivers into the wall?

StormChaser:When did Jeff Gordon turn into such a toddler? His Twitter feed after the MWR punishment was the social media equivalent of telling a 2 year old they can't have ice cream before dinner. And for what? So he could get into the chase and continue to blow engines, crash cars, and generally be irrelevant like he has been all seasonthe past four seasons?

FTFY but as stated above, and probably as some of us feared, he was probably going to take his aggression out on Logano, Bowyer, and everybody else. So rather than have an active missile on the track (and really, would NASCAR suspend Jeff Gordon?), they put him in.

bluorangefyre:killershark: Can someone explain to me what the big deal is about all of this? I'm an F1 fan and this whole situation sounds like typical team orders to me. So is it a "This is 'Murican racing!" situation or is there really a rule against team orders in NASCAR? Or was this not a case of team orders and there's something else I'm not seeing?

This is something new entirely for NASCAR. In the past at restrictor plate tracks we've had teammates helping each other to victory or pulling over to let their teammate lead a lap for bonus points, but not this blatant farkery that happened last weekend. If MWR was planning on doing this, they should've at least signed Nelson Piquet Jr. to a one race deal.

Right there is a difference between telling a drive to let someone pass, or telling a driver in 20th place to pit when the driver in 5th place pits at Daytona so the driver has a drafting partner and telling a driver to spin out because the wrong guy is winning and the only chance to fix that is a caution flag. The first examples help one driver and screw up the race for one driver, the last example farks up the whole field.

I was randomly throwing up big lebowski memes on Tuesday that were perfectly fitting....

Might dig then up Sunday...

Oh! Do you think Fox will dumpWaltrip as a broadcaster ?

Not a chance. Too much money wrapped up in his brother Darryl.

And as soon as Darryl opens his fat mouth to defend MWR next season fans will eat him alive

There may not even be a MWR team at Daytona. NAPA is re-evaluating their sponsorship, as well as 5-Hour Energy. The team started with Mikey running jet fuel in his car. And this is the second time I'm sounding like I'm defending Johnson and its making me feel dirty doing so, but at least the 48 team's cheating isn't as blatant. I did find it funny, though, that he had to come out and defend himself against allegations of cheating when it was the one time he wasn't cheating.

When did Jeff Gordon turn into such a toddler? His Twitter feed after the MWR punishment was the social media equivalent of telling a 2 year old they can't have ice cream before dinner. And for what? So he could get into the chase and continue to blow engines, crash cars, and generally be irrelevant like he has been all season?

I' m quite often lurking, but my snark generation unit is a little slow, so I often watch someone else post what I was gonna say.

I enjoy (nearly) every race. I have no allegiance to any particular driver. I knew what was going on last Saturday night but I saw it as masterful strategy, not cheating (except maybe Carl jumping the restart). I expected this sort of thing since 2005. I'm surprised it took this long.

I thought it was kinda clever myself. I do like MWR for coming from nothing to contenders in a relatively short time. I am however, adamantly anti-Gordon and JJ, as without their respective (or former) crew chiefs (Evernham and Knaus), I suspect they'd be barely top 20 drivers.

I still love to note that the rulebook says nothing about when a team can or cannot pit as long as the pits aren't closed, so they invoke 12.4A again. I guess now you'll have to subject your car to a teardown to make sure your reason for pitting is legit.

I'll bet the rule book with get a major overhaul this winter, or I'll expect more of the same from every team out there. Sometimes the cheaters DO win, and often because they are diabolically clever in "interpreting" the rules.

killershark:Can someone explain to me what the big deal is about all of this? I'm an F1 fan and this whole situation sounds like typical team orders to me. So is it a "This is 'Murican racing!" situation or is there really a rule against team orders in NASCAR? Or was this not a case of team orders and there's something else I'm not seeing?

I can't explain it, but I don't really buy into the team approach to racing in NASCAR. I'm a fan of the driver first, and barely acknowledge the team. Maybe it's an American bootstraps type of thing. Not sure if I'm a typical fan.

killershark:Can someone explain to me what the big deal is about all of this? I'm an F1 fan and this whole situation sounds like typical team orders to me. So is it a "This is 'Murican racing!" situation or is there really a rule against team orders in NASCAR? Or was this not a case of team orders and there's something else I'm not seeing?

This is something new entirely for NASCAR. In the past at restrictor plate tracks we've had teammates helping each other to victory or pulling over to let their teammate lead a lap for bonus points, but not this blatant farkery that happened last weekend. If MWR was planning on doing this, they should've at least signed Nelson Piquet Jr. to a one race deal.

killershark:Can someone explain to me what the big deal is about all of this? I'm an F1 fan and this whole situation sounds like typical team orders to me. So is it a "This is 'Murican racing!" situation or is there really a rule against team orders in NASCAR? Or was this not a case of team orders and there's something else I'm not seeing?

It made the sport look bad as it had never happened so blatantly before. Fans got pissed off. The governing body decided they needed to do something about team orders so they did. NASCAR has its roots in one car teams, so there was no written rule, but as has been stated many many time Brian France can make up a new rule anytime he wants. He could literately wake up Saturday morning and say "All Cars must have a pink stripe on the roof to race on Sunday" and every team would be out there with a can of pink spray paint.

vegaswench:technomuse: vegaswench: bluorangefyre: yeah, the thread on Sunday should drag out wrestling memes

Blech. Let's not.

Better than the diminutive equines?

\yes, I'm ducking...

Haha! I'd rather have ponies than rasslin', but don't tell the bronies I said that.

Oh God no! Not ponies; then I'll have my little ones crawling all over me wanting daddy to find more. But lately this sport is turning into the freakin' WWE, complete with a vanilla champion and a manufactured storyline. But to Johnson's credit, he gamed the system AFTER the points were reset, not before it.

When someone is screwed, it doesn't really fix anything to punish the people who did the screwing and not fix things for whoever got screwed. After the various fark ups in various sports in recent years, it's actually nice to see someone, even NASCAR go "Someone got screwed, and we're unscrewing them". So the Chase is 13 cars instead of 12, hardly a problem.

HamstersFromHell:freak7: HamstersFromHell: So Penske can cheat and won't get punished?

Even if you dock Joey for their cheating, he still ties Jeff and takes the tiebreaker.

Nope. Dock Logano the same as all the MWR drivers and he's not only out of the chase, but Jamie McMurray is in on points.

All these scenarios make my head hurt. Just have all of this resolved by a rousing game of "Rock, Paper, Scissors" for the last three spots. It would be just as pointless and silly as the events of this week.

HamstersFromHell:Sugarpuss O'Shea: Until Hamlin was fined, I thought that NASCAR drivers where more free to share their opinions than in other sports.Hamlin being fined earlier this year for expressing opinions on the new car was insane.

Big Bill put an end to that back when Richard Petty and friends tried to form a driver's union. France was threatening to pull the competition license of anyone who joined.

Maybe it's time for drivers to press for it, again. Are there fans of younger drivers to replace the aging Cup drivers who will understand this the lack of rules and consistency?

Sugarpuss O'Shea:Until Hamlin was fined, I thought that NASCAR drivers where more free to share their opinions than in other sports.Hamlin being fined earlier this year for expressing opinions on the new car was insane.

Big Bill put an end to that back when Richard Petty and friends tried to form a driver's union. France was threatening to pull the competition license of anyone who joined.

Sugarpuss O'Shea:Help a new fan out. Is it true that NASCAR doesn't have a published rule book? So they can pretty much make up the Chase rules as they go along? I can't imagine a similar situation in the NFL or MLB.

HamstersFromHell:Sugarpuss O'Shea: Help a new fan out. Is it true that NASCAR doesn't have a published rule book? So they can pretty much make up the Chase rules as they go along? I can't imagine a similar situation in the NFL or MLB.

They have one, it's just obtainable for us "commoners".

The problem with it is that it doesn't specify *anything* that MWR did as specifically being illegal.I don't have a link handy, but read Brian Vicker's letter in USA Today.

All NASCAR has in the old standby Rule 12.4A

12.4A: General Scope of PenaltiesAny member who performs an act or participates in actions deemed by NASCAR Officials as detrimental to stock car racing or to NASCAR: a fine, and/or disqualification, and/or loss of Championship points, and/or loss of finishing position(s) in the Event, and/or probation, and/or suspension.

Basically, it gives France and Helton absolute power over what they do or do not like. But NASCAR abuses the hell out of this little rule, ask Denny Hamlin. They use it as a "gag order" to keep the drivers in line with any criticism of the oh so holy NASCAR.

:

Until Hamlin was fined, I thought that NASCAR drivers where more free to share their opinions than in other sports.Hamlin being fined earlier this year for expressing opinions on the new car was insane.

Tom_Slick:Sugarpuss O'Shea: Help a new fan out. Is it true that NASCAR doesn't have a published rule book? So they can pretty much make up the Chase rules as they go along? I can't imagine a similar situation in the NFL or MLB.

There is no equivalent of a Players Union in NASCAR, essentially if you want to race at that level you have to do whatever the France family deems necessary. So they can do whatever they want. Their contracts are with TV and Sponsors as long as the races happen that's all that matters. The drivers and team owners have no rights not given to them by the France family, and those rights can be rescinded at anytime.

It is worse than the WWE since at least the wrestlers have a contract with the WWE and have a legal recourse. The teams are invited to race and that invitation can be pulled at anytime for any reason with no explanation.

Thank you. I can't help but think that the drivers need a players union, independent of their teams. And how can the sponsors handle having their teams added or removed from the Chase based on a ruling, not on-track action? That can't be good for retaining or attracting sponsors.

NASCAR got boned so hard by this coming out on Wednesday. That, plus their inaction on Bowyer, the catalyst of the whole mess, has led to a great, steaming plate of schadenfreude and fail that they've had coming for a while. I can only hope that this clusterfark is the ultimate downfall of the Chase.

Sugarpuss O'Shea:Help a new fan out. Is it true that NASCAR doesn't have a published rule book? So they can pretty much make up the Chase rules as they go along? I can't imagine a similar situation in the NFL or MLB.

They have one, it's just obtainable for us "commoners".

The problem with it is that it doesn't specify *anything* that MWR did as specifically being illegal.I don't have a link handy, but read Brian Vicker's letter in USA Today.

All NASCAR has in the old standby Rule 12.4A

12.4A: General Scope of PenaltiesAny member who performs an act or participates in actions deemed by NASCAR Officials as detrimental to stock car racing or to NASCAR: a fine, and/or disqualification, and/or loss of Championship points, and/or loss of finishing position(s) in the Event, and/or probation, and/or suspension.

Basically, it gives France and Helton absolute power over what they do or do not like. But NASCAR abuses the hell out of this little rule, ask Denny Hamlin. They use it as a "gag order" to keep the drivers in line with any criticism of the oh so holy NASCAR.

Sugarpuss O'Shea:Help a new fan out. Is it true that NASCAR doesn't have a published rule book? So they can pretty much make up the Chase rules as they go along? I can't imagine a similar situation in the NFL or MLB.

There is no equivalent of a Players Union in NASCAR, essentially if you want to race at that level you have to do whatever the France family deems necessary. So they can do whatever they want. Their contracts are with TV and Sponsors as long as the races happen that's all that matters. The drivers and team owners have no rights not given to them by the France family, and those rights can be rescinded at anytime.

It is worse than the WWE since at least the wrestlers have a contract with the WWE and have a legal recourse. The teams are invited to race and that invitation can be pulled at anytime for any reason with no explanation.

soopey:Tom_Slick: They should have shortened the chase to 9 races and made everyone race in this week.

This is probably the most sensible solution I've heard yet. Even better, it puts New Hampshire back as the first race in the Chase like it should be.

/Go DIAF Bruton Smith

While this is a good idea it creates two problems:

1. You just moved the goal posts and created a situation where anyone excluded after this race would have a problem. This would repeat the Gordon unfairness cycle

2. It gives MWR the chance to play the victim after penalties were handed out. As it is right now they are probably going to be crying this weekend because Newman and Gordon were put in the chase by changing the rules while they were punished.

See it made sense Monday because the penalties on MWR were enforced to specifically put Newman in the Chase over Truex and enforce a sense of fairness without mangling the rules to do it.

Now? It's just a clusterfark. Why not put 16 drives in the chase and make them race the tracks clockwise with all right turns?!

I don't know if wrestling is a good analogy. I was thinking more like a circus. Or a carnival side show.

Has anyone met any NASCAR fan in the history of the world who likes the chase? My dad is a math geek so he likes figuring out what the standings should be, but I think that may be the only reason for anyone to like it.