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As you all know, I eat a lot of protien. I have tried to cut down, but when I do after a few days I just start feeling weak and sick. After reading the allergy book I am wondering if all of the protien is what is aggrevating my stomach all the time.

I crave protien all of the time, often like people with allergies to a certain food, crave that food, plus maybe the weak and sick feeling is detox

What do you all think? Am I just pulling straws or could it be a possibility. If this is a problem what do I do to cut down, I just don't seem to be able to

Don't go beyond your blood type's nutritional capabilities: If you are a type A and over consume animal products, the malabsorption that results from the incomplete breakdown of animal protein will serve as a very tempting source of amino acids for the intestinal bacteria. In gratitude for this free meal they will synthesize huge amounts of polyamines. If you are type O, watch the grain lectins; they will increase the production of polyamines by the cells of the intestines, pancreas and liver.

It's most likely polyamine toxicity.

Ways to overcome:

Quoted Text

How to minimize internal polyamine production:

Use natural food sources that inhibit ornithene de-carboxlase (ODC) the enzyme required for their synthesis:

A handful of walnuts thrown into a salad twice daily does a pretty decent job of inhibiting excess ODC activity.

Other ideas:

Use natural, food derived carotenoids Unlike synthetic beta carotene, food derived carotenoids still look promising as anti-cancer agents. Two common carotenoids found in many yellow and red vegetables, xanthophylls and canthaxanthin, reduce polyamine levels in the oral cavity and GI tract.

Watch the Vitamin E which seems to upregulate polyamine metabolism, probably by its direct effects on ODC. Interestingly, the ability of vitamin E to increase levels of polyamines may account for its more positive effects in Alzheimer's disease. Much of the nerve damage in Alzheimer's results from oxidative stress, or the generation of free-radicals in the brain. Vitamin E may help reverse this effect by raising brain polyamine levels to allow the nerve cells to survive the neurodegenerative process.

Be wary of 'liver protective' herbs: Many herbs known for their protective effect on the liver, such as Milk Thistle or Schizandra, are in fact bioactive because they raise polyamines in the organ. In a case of liver disease , their might be rationale, in a malignancy or cancer prevention program, they are not.

Avoid supplemental doses of the amino acids ornithine, cysteine and methionine. Ornithine and methionine are precursors of polyamines. Ornithine is the direct precursor to putrescine; methionine and cysteine are intermediates in the synthesis of polyamines. Several supplement studies have shown these amino acids promote growth hormone and insulin, perhaps through increased polyamine secretion. Naturopaths have known for many years that it was unwise to supplement cancer patients with methionine. One study even went so far as to suggest that the relatively low methionine levels in some phytochemicals such as soy, which may limit the synthesis of polyamines necessary for tumor growth In rats treated for twelve weeks with the chemical carcinogen azoxymethane (AOM), the administration of the methionine-supplemented diet stimulated the turnover rate of intestinal cells, indicating enhanced cell proliferation. Furthermore, a 2-fold increase in the number of tumors was observed in the colon. These effects were accompanied by the increased formation of the polyamines spermidine and spermine. The experimental data suggests that methionine promotes intestinal carcinogenesis.

Insure adequate levels of dietary zinc Dietary zinc deficiency caused significantly higher plasma levels of the polyamines spermidine and spermine than in controls with adequate zinc levels. Conversely, copper, a nutrient often inimical to zinc, in high concentrations, has been shown to increase the levels of polyamines.

As I recall there are limited foods that you can tolerate. It might help if you show what you eat in a typical day, maybe list A beneficials that you just cannot tolerate, as well as foods you know you can eat. I know you've probably posted this in various places, but someone might be able to help you with the puzzle if all the info is in one place. It's difficult for me as an O, since I'm not so familiar with A foods.

Posted by: Laura P, Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 12:11am; Reply: 5

ok this is the list of A beneficials I commonally eat, my diet is avoid free and probably 80-90% beneficial TurkeySalmonSnapperTroutPerchCod

other protiens I eat, lots of other type fish, Chicken, eggs, and right now I am trying to add yogurt and cottage cheese

Particularly take note of the section starting at page 19 through about page 33, and page 41.

Sorry about the incorrect link that was previously in this post ::)

Posted by: Lola, Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 1:02am; Reply: 7

could you check the link again Don, pls? )

it takes me to a thread........

Posted by: Don, Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 1:16am; Reply: 8

Thanks Lola, I fixed it.

Posted by: Laura P, Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 1:30am; Reply: 9

So Don are you saying I have heavy metal toxity? What would I do to cure this

Posted by: KimonoKat, Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 1:33am; Reply: 10

Quoted from lkpetrolino

So Don are you saying I have heavy metal toxity? What would I do to cure this

I know there's a post on mercury toxity somewhere! John McDonnell (sp?) posted about it within the last two days I think! It's about how B12 deficiency mimics mercury poisoning/toxcity.

Posted by: Don, Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 1:35am; Reply: 11

No, I am saying there is a possibility of some sort of toxicity, not necessarily heavy metals. I know you can't afford the testing, but that is probably the only way to find out.

I sent in my urine and blood samples for this testing 2 weeks ago and am expecting the results anytime in the next 2 weeks. I am anxious to see if it identifies anything that could be the cause of my troubles.

Posted by: Laura P, Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 2:10am; Reply: 12

Do you mind pming me to tell me how much it cost

Posted by: Lola, Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 2:13am; Reply: 13

thanks Don! )interesting info......

Posted by: Don, Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 2:31am; Reply: 14

This is where I bought the Foundation Wellness Profile test kit: http://www.jigsawhealth.com/product.aspx?pID=1072Plus I had to go to the doctor to get the test requisition forms signed and will have to get the results from the doctor, which I am hoping I will be able to do without paying for a doctor's visit.

A cheaper route is to buy the Optimal Wellness Profile, which includes the same tests as above, from this source: http://www.directlabs.com/testtypes.php#optimalThis offering from Direct Labs has changed since I bought my test kit about 4 weeks ago. They have added the CellMate Report and raised the price slightly. I am not sure that the CellMate Report that comes with this profile is the same report as the test kit I got from JigsawHealth. If you are interested I will call them tomorrow and find out.

I wanted the complete analysis (see the sample available on the JigsawHealth webpage) so when I bought the test I purchased it from JigsawHealth, because Direct Labs didn't include the CellMate Report at that time.

Posted by: Laura P, Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 2:36am; Reply: 15

Geez........I would love to get that done but thats alot of mula, I'll be interested to know how yoour reports look though and if you felt they were comprehensive, I need to get my sereotyping done first, maybe I'm just an A2 and that is my issue

Posted by: Don, Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 2:40am; Reply: 16

I started a thread on this topic about 2 months ago. It appears to be gone now.

If you are really considering this type of testing you might want to read some more of the material at the following sites:http://www.carbonbased.com/modules/mydownloads/ This is the company that does the analysis and reportinghttp://www.metametrix.com/ This is the company that does the actual lab work for 2 of the tests. Lab Corp does the standard comprehensive blood analysis.

Posted by: Don, Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 2:57am; Reply: 17

I agree it is not cheap, but I am getting tired of guessing at what the problem is, trying different things, and waiting to see if I will get any results. All that chews up time, my life, and as they say time is money.

I hope the results of this testing will give me some knowledge and direction to help resolve the mystery of my fatigue problem. I should know soon.

One small observation: Meyer lemons are generally assumed to be a cross between a lemon and an orange. You might try switching to a variety of true lemon, such as Eureka or Lisbon (but not Ponderosa, which is a citron cross), and see if that helps a little. (What you want is a "lemon-shaped" lemon, rather than a roundish one.)

Posted by: Laura P, Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 4:13am; Reply: 19

oh my gosh I had no idea, thank you Carol, I love them so much, Carol, what does your diet look like, I'm trying to remember how I ate when I was a vegetarian and I just can't

Citrus fruits are marketed according to what they look and taste like. A Meyer looks and tastes more like a lemon than anything else, so it's marketed as a lemon, even though its genes are probably mixed. Same goes for a lot of "tangerines," by the way, so beware!

Here's what I ate today:

First thing (call it breakfast if you like): One whole grapefruit (minus the section membranes).

Later (lunch?): A few slices of homemade spelt bread with egg salad (more often with almond butter). In lieu of mayonnaise, I experimented today with 2 tsp lemon juice, 1 tsp olive oil, 1/4 tsp lecithin, and 1/8 tsp salt -- chopped in the egg and added some minced celery. Pretty good, but I'm still in search of the perfect mayonnaise stand-in.

Supper: Collard greens sauteed in a dab of olive oil with a pinch of asafetida, black-eyed peas, and mashed sweet potato.

Bedtime: Goat yogurt with a mashed banana.

Posted by: azzap, Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 11:21am; Reply: 21

I'm not an expert on the A diet but I'm having trouble seeing what the actual problem here is.

Your intake as you have described it looks fine and I'm sure there are a few of us here who wished they could be as dedicated to "no avoids" and high beneficail compliancy.

To that end, the question in my mind comes back to the nature of your digestive problems. What sort of problems do you get?. I'm assuming here that your blood work is fine and there are no excessive cholesterol problems (meat based for A's usually) and if that's the case then could it simply be a case of very low intestinal alkaline phosphitase (good ol IAP - which is characteristically low in A's)

In the Live Right Book there is a topic in the A section called "eat right for strength and balance ( page 181). At the bottom of the page it states:

"Smaller more frequent meals will counteract digestive problems caused by low stomach acid (you already do this so let's assume the protein amount in each meal is OK). Don't eat when you're nervous or because you're nervous. Your stomach initiates the digestive process with a combination of digestive secretions and the muscular contractions that mix food with them. When you have low levels of digestive secretions, foods tend to stay in the stomach longer. In addition, be attentive to food combining. You'll digest and metabolise foods more efficiently if you avoid eating starches and proteins at the same meal. The use of digestive bitters 30 minutes prior to a meal can also help rev up your digestion."

For all I know you "may" be eating too much protein but it just doesn't sound like it (especially if you feel weak when you don't and especially if you are fairly active). It may simply be that the protein isn't being digested fast enough and so taking a few steps to "rev up your digestion" as Dr D. puts it may be the answer. He mentions digestive bitters but off the top of my head I can't think of any other.

As an aside, the book also mentions to limit turkey and chicken to 2-3 times per week, and to derive your primary protein from soy products and seafood. I can't remember off hand but I don't think there were many soy products in your list.

Anyway, I hope this helps in some way.

Aaron.

Posted by: Laura P, Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 2:25pm; Reply: 22

Thanks Aaron it does. My protien intake is probably 80-90% fish, I have been wanting to try to add some soy, but have been nervous because of the large numbers of nonnies that have trouble with it. I used to love tempeh though so I'm going to try that. I have UC which causes most of my issues, I think BTD as done so much to heal me, and I feel like I have sort of plateaued so I am searching. I do use digestive bitters and they help alot.

I think it is just difficult for me because my diet is so different than most A's and sometimes I wonder if I am doing it completely wrong

Posted by: resting, Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 3:37pm; Reply: 23

gosh Laura,

Cheryl's original comments about proteins and polyamines seems right ... except a few thing .... like all other nutrients, the use of amino acids is seasonally cyclical ... what seems to be very high for the spring and summer months is highly curtailed and selective for fall and especially for winter. So polyamine production ... simply because of excess protein is ripe for the winter months (which we are in). These same aminos ... with their putresine, etc... will be much less an issue in the spring-summer with this putresine spurring growth.

It might help you to see that food selection varies appreciably seasonally and we can be in full BTD-compliance yet be totally out-of-sync seasonally ... eg pineapples in mid-January may be fine in Australia - here they are inappropriate. All classes of foodstuffs fit into such variation.

John

Posted by: Victoria, Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 5:51pm; Reply: 24

Laura,I think you are forgetting something.

You are a heavy runner, if I remember correctly. The level of exercise that you do is going to burn a lot of calories, and require more protein than for most A's who might take a more gentle approach to exercise.

Posted by: Don, Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 5:57pm; Reply: 25

Laura,

Could part of your problem be stress? You blogged about you compulsive nature. Are you able to relax? Do you take time to relax and enjoy?

I don't remember if you have ever mentioned if you do yoga or other stress relief activities.

Just a thought.

Posted by: Connect, Wednesday, February 1, 2006, 8:19pm; Reply: 26

As are known to have higher anxiety levels, in general. I think a large number of physical complaints are psychosomatic. Literally, we "worry' ourselves into physical ailments. Striving for balance is key in attaining good health. Compulsive behavior always stems from an avoidance of something...you just have to figure out what. What I have learned is that the more you try to control something, the more it controls you. So perhaps the key is to relax, make beneficial food choices and delight in how good you are being to yourself. I think you'll notice a physical difference from this mental change.

You know Laura, the amount of protein you're eating doesn't really look to be that much out of line, but I agree that trying to use more soy might help, unless you are absolutely allergic to it. The stress could definitely be playing into it as well. I think you exercise quite a bit, maybe more than is good for you. Maybe you should consider spending part of that exercise time on the more A type activities such as yoga, tai chi, even some breathing exercises. But I have an A friend that doesn't like to do those things, not challenging enough, so she feels like she's wasting her time. But give those things some consideration. The exercise at least won't put a strain on your budget.

Posted by: Lola, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 2:58am; Reply: 28

try finding a lab that can do the serotyping for you, to determine if you are an A2, perhaps.

or fine tune your diet to an A2 for a while, and see how you do.

you have the LRFYT book, right?

Posted by: Laura P, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 3:51am; Reply: 29

yes, I don't think the diet would be much different then it is now, since I don't eat grains and eat mostly fish

Posted by: Lola, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 4:40am; Reply: 30

you heard Dr D mention A2s as 'more O like', in his last radio interview! )

Posted by: azzap, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 11:48am; Reply: 31

Errrrr, excuse my ignorance but what's UC?.

Aaron.

Posted by: ruthie, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 1:18pm; Reply: 32

Connect- I am interested in your post wherein you said that compulsive behavior stems from trying to avoid something. Wish i could figure out what i am trying to avoid. I'm not as compulsive as Monk, but I do like things 'my way'. I think I am trying to avoid chaos. Avoiding chaos seems to be the best avenue for an A or at least for this A.namasteruthie

Posted by: Laura P, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 2:01pm; Reply: 33

I think my issue remains that what I am doing is not working. I can feel intuitively that I need to change something in my diet, but I can't figure out what

Posted by: resting, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 2:06pm; Reply: 34

Aaron, ... UC stands for ulcerative colitis

Laura ... one of the problems with reading technical stuff is that if you do not understand the words, then you falsely believes it does not apply. In this case the amino acid methionine is suspected of producing too much polyamine. Methionine and cysteine are the only two amino acids with sulphur ... one way to detect them is very smelly gas.

To stem this from forming Cheryl has listed a whole slew of foods that will interfere with ODC. Interestingly, there is a call for adequate zinc. [And one of the minor roles of taurine is to intervene in the break-down process of amino acids to prevent things like smelly gas from occurring at all.] So try giving 25mg + copper - 2mg + 2g taurine ................ 2X each day a trial for a month. All these supplements are inexpensive. [In particular the taurine can be bought as a powder from hfs that sell bodybuilders' nutrients.]

John

Posted by: Victoria, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 4:08pm; Reply: 35

I think Cheryl's post from Jan. 31, and John's post from today, are getting very close to the heart of your problem, Laura. I suggest you read both those again a few times, and try and see where it might fit with you.

For myself, I copied both of them because I was amazed by how relevant they are. I have always wondered why that sulfur-smelling gas appears sometimes, and usually it's when I'm having problems with inflammation, either digestive or joint related. Food for thought.

Thanks Cheryl and John!

Posted by: Laura P, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 4:17pm; Reply: 36

agreed, John, could you explain your post a bit more and how, other then the supplementation I can affect this. I do know I in particular have a hard time with sulfur containing items, eggs, garlic, onions

Posted by: resting, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 4:46pm; Reply: 37

like those foods you have listed ... it is likely that fish has the highest sulphur content of 'flesh' foods. This is not totally bad because we tend (in NA) to eat far too much protein anyway. when this is coupled with seasonal variation in protein use - you IMO may be in for much trouble. You may be in fact eating close to the maximum in protein while you should be in a minimal protein mode ... especially from flesh sources.

Recommendations ... for an A ... until Spring, focus on a close to vegetarian style food. Combine compliant grains and compliant beans. We will soon be into spring ... colostrum with zinc, taurine and lecithin can fix many things then.

John

Posted by: Laura P, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 5:17pm; Reply: 38

ok, John this poses a problem when I don't really think I can eat grains or beans, so that leaves me with veggies, am I just eating veggies until spring?

Posted by: resting, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 5:34pm; Reply: 39

no Laura ............. turkey breast has a lot of taurine. Just drastically reduce the amount of 'flesh' protein and include more veggies of the winter-type .... carrots, yams, turnips, onions, parsnips. A little amount of fish like salmon or sardines, I'm sure will be fine.

You may find that you will wish to sleep rather than your six small meals. Sleep ... and leave off the meals. By getting healthier your abilities to assimilate foods should also increase. In this way your digestion will become more efficient. so, you should not experience outrageous hunger.

I appreciated Cheryl's info on polyamines, which I am trying to understand. Does anyone know if wine (red) counteracts polyamine (due to its anthocyanines, etc.) or encourages them due to being fermented? (praying for the former!) Jayney-0

Posted by: Victoria, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 6:07pm; Reply: 42

Quoted from John_McDonell_O+

In this case the amino acid methionine is suspected of producing too much polyamine. Methionine and cysteine are the only two amino acids with sulphur ... one way to detect them is very smelly gas.

To stem this from forming Cheryl has listed a whole slew of foods that will interfere with ODC. Interestingly, there is a call for adequate zinc. [And one of the minor roles of taurine is to intervene in the break-down process of amino acids to prevent things like smelly gas from occurring at all.] So try giving 25mg + copper - 2mg + 2g taurine ................ 2X each day a trial for a month. All these supplements are inexpensive. [In particular the taurine can be bought as a powder from hfs that sell bodybuilders' nutrients.]John

John, I want to understand this, also, and barely catch the drift of what you are saying. Is sulfur the culprit? Or friend? Sometimes I take MSM, which is very much sulfur, thinking that it will help with the health of my joints. Is this sulfur contributing to the break-down you are speaking of?

What is ODC?

And regarding taurine, are there foods that are high in taurine?

Posted by: Laura P, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 6:11pm; Reply: 43

yes I am very very confused

Posted by: Victoria, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 6:19pm; Reply: 44

John, please consider that Laura and I are at a very basic level of understanding on things that are like a playground to you because you are so at home in your understanding of them. We're kind of emotional about this because there is a sense of desperation that sets in with a chronic condition. Perhaps you understand this fact. :-)

The supplements you mentioned, we need to understand exactly what they do in laywomen's terms so that, for example, when Laura is trying to justify to herself why she must not eat meat when her body is screaming for it, she can say "Oh, what is happening is *****, and therefore, if I do ******, then ****** will happen, and then I will be happy because I will experience *****.

:-) Sorry I'm being silly. But talking to you is like talking to my brother. He is a scientist, and SO brilliant, and when we try and talk, he gets frustrated because he thinks he's being clear, and I think he's talking a foreign language and leaving out the very things I want to understand.

Posted by: Victoria, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 6:25pm; Reply: 45

Quoted from John_McDonell_O+

like those foods you have listed ... it is likely that fish has the highest sulphur content of 'flesh' foods. This is not totally bad because we tend (in NA) to eat far too much protein anyway. John

You were recommending to Laura that she eat less flesh foods.However, turkey breast is high in taurine, so is that one the exception, or is there something else at work here?

And fish has a high sulfur content, so....... what does that mean in terms of being appropriate at this time, or not?

What is NA?

Posted by: Laura P, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 6:36pm; Reply: 46

Exactly Victoria, my problem is in order to implement something I need a clear layed out plan. example-I wake up I eat ----I run come home for breakfast I eat---Have snack I eat-----

and so on, I need to understand things so I can put them in a clear plan otherwise I fall back to what is comfortable, that is why I have been having a hard time changing something I know isn't working

Posted by: Victoria, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 6:46pm; Reply: 47

I Know what you are saying, Laura. That is why I have a hard time with some Naturopaths, who offer a great list of supplements which are good for this or that complaint. But, unless I feel that I really Understand Why they are suggesting it, I'm not going to just drop the things I do understand and pick up something that is new. I feel that I could end up out on a limb, with something that "turns on me", and I wouldn't know what to do because I don't know exactly what it was supposed to do or how it is supposed to feel if it is working.

Once I understand it, then I have made it Mine, and I can work (and experiment) with it.

Laura ... this is not a take-it-or-leave-it-thing. You have said you eat a lot of protein ... and this is as fish. So, OPTION #1 - EAT LESS 'flesh' PROTEIN ... meat/fish are 'complete' protein sources - unlike most veggies they contain methionine in spades. All veggies have amino acids and their protein is not 'complete'. Just a very little flesh protein is required ... be it fish or turkey, etc. In the winter to much protein may mean too much polyamine production. Winter is not the time for active cell growth. About all that goes on is cell repair.I suggested the grain-beans as one way to get this 'complete' protein, but Laura said 'no'.

OPTION #2 - SUPPLEMENT WITH ZINC/COPPER/TAURINE ... Laura nixed that so we are back to option #1 [the idea of turkey comes from Laura's posted food preferences ..]

Posted by: Victoria, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 8:07pm; Reply: 49

Thank you John,Are you saying that all flesh foods, whether red meat, turkey or fish.......all have the same tendency to raise polyamine production?

John, could you check my post (oh, about 7 posts back) about MSM, sulfur, and it's connection to polyamines? (and sulfur-smelling gas) I have noticed the sulfur odor seems to always correspond to inflammation on some level in my body. I'm not clear on that one.

Posted by: resting, Thursday, February 2, 2006, 9:01pm; Reply: 50

no Victoria ... polyamine production can come from any number of different sources - methionine is but one. All flesh foods do have a super-abundance of methionine. If a food that inhibits OCD is eaten with the food with high methionine, polyamines will not be formed ...

I know very little about sulphur and inflammation. U. Erasmus says that sulphured aminos and essential fatty acids together form a membrane permeability to allow oxygen into a cell. Just how this ties to inflammation ... even whether this information is necessary, I do not know.

In cases of extreme stress. Dr. Wood said, the higher brain seems to protect the gut by sending signals to immunological mast cells in the plexus. The mast cells secrete histamine, prostaglandin and other agents that help produce inflammation, he said. "This is protective. If an animal is in danger and subject to trauma, dirty stuff in the intestines is only a few cells away from the rest of the body. By inflaming the gut, the brain is priming the gut for surveillance. If the barrier breaks, the gut is ready to do repairs". Dr. Wood said. Unfortunately, the chemicals that get released also cause diarrhea and cramping.

[quote=Victoria]I have always wondered why that sulfur-smelling gas appears sometimes, and usually it's when I'm having problems with inflammation, either digestive or joint related. quote]

Hmmmm. I had not made this connection until reading this thread but had wondered like Victoria, why the occaisional smelly gas when usually none, especially when there is no obvious difference in my diet. When this happens, I usually have a few pimples break out and am in more pain too.

A few weeks ago I added supplemental taurine, arginine, glycine, methionine to my already "complete" supplement regimen to encourage phase II detox in my liver. If I am understanding John correctly, taking taurine with the methionine should prevent polyamine problems, right? But I eat a lot of animal protein too... I upped the amounts of these amino acids a few days ago and now I am dealing with a few pimples on my jawline and last night, smelly gas... related?? Coincidence??

I am very tempted to do a liver flush. My condition has improved since I last posted this temptation several months ago, when several of you talked me out of it... Laura, have you ever flushed?

Posted by: Laura P, Friday, February 3, 2006, 12:40am; Reply: 54

I've never flushed, I think it would be good for me and would like too but am not sure if I could handle all the olive oil without tossing my cookies, I can barely have a teaspoon on a salad without getting naseaus. Is there any other way to flush?

Posted by: Don, Friday, February 3, 2006, 2:22am; Reply: 55

I did my 3rd liver flush since Christmas this week, which is the 27th flush I have done. I am still getting stones with each flush. I have heard of people using something other than olive oil, but you do have to use some sort of oil.

You might want to read all of the info about taurine in the article below.

Females tend toward lower taurine levels than males as their production pathways don't work as efficiently.

Taurine is closely bound to zinc & manganese so deficiencies of either of these can interfere with its' utilization. Likewise, zinc & manganese enhance the effects of taurine.

...intestinal dysfunction with bacterial overgrowth of the small bowel can all lead to excess loss of taurine in the urine & subsequent deficiency.

Posted by: Whimsical, Friday, February 3, 2006, 3:21am; Reply: 56

Hi Laura,

I too was never able to hold the olive oil down, so I switched to almond oil and it worked like a charm. Have you seen Heidi's flush instructions? I can share them with you if you like. She also recommends seltzer water with a dash of black cherry juice to reduce nausea - also worked for me!

Posted by: Laura P, Friday, February 3, 2006, 3:22am; Reply: 57

yes, please tell me how you did it kate

Posted by: Whimsical, Friday, February 3, 2006, 3:39am; Reply: 58

I tried my first flush according to Julia Chang's instructions here (I even drove to her store and got the herbal concoction from her), but couldn't fast for more than a day (since I couldn't have apple juice - avoid for O-nons) and couldn't keep the olive oil/juice mix down.

So, I tweaked the flush to use Heidi's personal version, which is posted somewhere in On The Diet - I wrote it up in word and will post it next. This version worked well for me - I think the Epsom salts helped A LOT (even though they are really gross) and using almond oil instead of olive oil too - for some reason the taste of extra virgin olive oil would just stay with me and eventually I would throw it up, but almond oil has almost no taste (or at least I like the taste), so I kept it down! If I felt nauseous I would sip some seltzer water with black cherry juice and do alternate nostril breathing.

I have also never managed to make it the full day after the flush without eating some protein, but this never seemed to do me any harm.

Posted by: Whimsical, Friday, February 3, 2006, 3:40am; Reply: 59

GALLBLADDER/LIVER FLUSH (according to Heidi):

I never used the preparatory herbs Julia suggests for softening the stones and clearing the liver. At the time of my first flush, I considered myself in fine physical health, and ready & willing to take the leap directly. This approach is not for everyone, and each of us must decide how to approach the flush. However, my experience bore out how simple, harmless and useful this procedure is, and I was glad to find that the flush itself is remarkably effective on its own.

You need not take off work to do it - you could juice-fast on the Thursday & Friday (even with light snacks if needed - veg & fruit only, no fats), do the flush Friday night, and then you've two days at home for the 'clear out' and to ease back into your usual menu.

PolyFlora is a must in the follow-up - take it twice daily on the day after the flush and for two weeks afterward, to help things return to normal.

ON THE DAY OF:Only fresh (granny smith) apple juice if possible. Eat lightly if at all. Stop eating and drinking at 2:00. then, water permitted, but sip it. *Optional: Make Epsom salts (3 T to 3 cups water – 3/4 cup per dose, add some lemon or pear juice if desired)

6:00 p.m. take first dose of Epsom salts. 8:00 p.m. take second dose. Squeeze out 1 1/2 cups of red grapefruit juice, mix with 1 cup olive oil 9:30, take 1/2 the grapefruit/olive oil mix; 10:00, take the other half and LIE DOWN immediately on right side with right knee pulled up. Try to stay that way for at least 20 minutes – go to sleep if possible.

For nausea during the flush, have some room-temperature seltzer with a good dash of black cherry concentrate on your bedside table -- sip it until the nausea abates.

NEXT MORNING: Immediately on rising, *take third dose of Epsom salts. Follow with lukewarm lemon water. Last dose, two hours later. Follow with lukewarm lemon water.

Two hours after that, you can eat. Stick to vegetable soup and juices. Lots of soft stuff including veg broth or juice, no heavy protein or fats. Next day, nearly back to normal eating... just take it easy on the protein & fats.

That's it! Malic acid is available in supplement form for type O nonsecretors who wish to have the benefits of the apple juice without the pesky lectin. Since I now do this, at most, twice yearly, I have so far gone ahead with the organic fresh-juiced apples. I don't recommend it, but it's what I've done. Since I seem to be passing no stones at all anymore (just a bit of sand), I'm thinking of ditching the apple juice for the next one. stay tuned! ;-)

It may take several flushes, say one every two months over half a year, to do the job for you - but you'll feel the difference yourself, and be able to plan from there! It's certainly a great self-help tool, and may be what you've been looking for.

Posted by: 903 (Guest), Friday, February 3, 2006, 5:29am; Reply: 60

Would lemon work in place of the grapefruit? Not sure I could keep grapefruit down, hate it! The almond oil is a great idea, Kate.

And going so long with just light fruit and veggie snacks... How necessary is the fasting?? ::) Maybe I'm not ready for a flush!!

Posted by: Whimsical, Friday, February 3, 2006, 1:01pm; Reply: 61

Hi JK,

I think lemon juice would work just as well, I guess the grapefruit is thought to be easier to swallow (not as sour).

The fasting isn't as bad as it sounds - I usually do just fruit and veggies on a Friday, then only water and juice on a Saturday, drink the Epsom salts, oil/juice mix that night. You ARE hungry, but you get over it in a few hours and I actually then felt really great.

Posted by: 290 (Guest), Friday, February 3, 2006, 1:23pm; Reply: 62

Quoted from lkpetrolino

I've never flushed, I think it would be good for me and would like too but am not sure if I could handle all the olive oil without tossing my cookies, I can barely have a teaspoon on a salad without getting naseaus. Is there any other way to flush?

I'm interested in this too....I have some twinges now and then that are definitely gall bladder. Haven't tackled this as I'm afraid I have some big ones and that a stone might get stuck...anyone ever ever ever heard of this???? Or is that something I just shouldn't worry about? That's the ONLY thing that stops me.

Wish I knew someone my approximate age (let's just say "mature") who recently did this!

Jeanne

Posted by: Whimsical, Friday, February 3, 2006, 1:42pm; Reply: 63

Hi all,

There is a Golden Thread all about the flush (11 pages worth of discussion) that is worth reading if you haven't done a flush before. Lots of beginners asking questions, and answers from the beloved Heidi, back when she still surfed the board.

BTW pinemeadows, there is some discussion about stones getting stuck on their way out - this is why the Epsom salts are so important, because they help dilate the bile duct.

Posted by: Connect, Friday, February 3, 2006, 4:15pm; Reply: 64

I actually just received my shipment of Julia Chang's herbal tinctures. I am planning on beginning to take them next Monday. You take them 3 weeks before you flush. This will be my first liver flush. I've spoken with Julia on the phone about it, and she was very helpful in instructing me on how to do everything. I bought her GCG, Chinese Bitters (to decongest liver first) and Coptis mixtures.

Kind of dreading the drinking of the salt (ewww), but I need the flush.

Posted by: 903 (Guest), Friday, February 3, 2006, 4:42pm; Reply: 65

What is special about using epsom salts (hydrated magnesium sulfate MgSO4-7H20) instead of a magnesium supplement? The idea is to use Mg as a laxative, right? Just trying to understand exactly what happens during a flush... and Mg supplements are certainly easier to take than downing epsom salt!

Thanks Kate!

Posted by: Laura P, Friday, February 3, 2006, 6:08pm; Reply: 66

Hey John, I just got zinc and copper, can't find taurine though, will these two work ok?

Posted by: Laura P, Friday, February 3, 2006, 6:09pm; Reply: 67

Hey John, I just got zinc and copper, can't find taurine though, will these two work ok?

Posted by: Whimsical, Friday, February 3, 2006, 7:30pm; Reply: 68

Hi JK,

I don't know why Epsom salts rather than Mg - I just go with the instructions from Heidi. Maybe someone else can explain why?

Posted by: Connect, Friday, February 3, 2006, 10:49pm; Reply: 69

Quoted from ruthie

Connect- I am interested in your post wherein you said that compulsive behavior stems from trying to avoid something. Wish i could figure out what i am trying to avoid. I'm not as compulsive as Monk, but I do like things 'my way'. I think I am trying to avoid chaos. Avoiding chaos seems to be the best avenue for an A or at least for this A.namasteruthie

Hi Ruthie,

Typically when we find ourselves being compulsive, there is a truth we know on a subconscious level that we are struggling to avoid. In trying to outrun said truth, we bury ourselves in compulsive eating, compulsive drinking, compulsive worrying, compulsive working, working out, etc.... It's all a dash to escape. The thing that is ironic about the whole situation is that when one stops running and avoiding and instead practices accepting, the compulsion will abate and the need to control will disintegrate, as well. It's usually not the truth that is so painful, as it is the avoidance of it. When we stop and get still and just accept everything as it is, we center and that very chaos that you say you are trying to avoid goes away on its own. The external chaos will always be there, but when you learn to get still and centered, miraculously, everything seems calm. Acceptance of every moment really is the key. Avoidance is what leads to compulsive behaviors.

By this mechanism, it has anti-anxiety & anti-convulsant activity. It has also been found useful in some cases of migraine, insomnia, agitation, restlessness, irritability, alcoholism, obsessions, depression, hypomania/mania.

I don't know why Epsom salts rather than Mg - I just go with the instructions from Heidi. Maybe someone else can explain why?

I'd only guess it's an inexpensive source, but also supplements usually contain lots of binders, etc. so may not dissolve as readily. 3 Tbsp of epsom salts would also probably be quite a few tablets or capsules. The concentration (specific ratio of salts to water) could be important too for absorption or what ever.

Posted by: resting, Friday, February 3, 2006, 11:56pm; Reply: 74

Sorry Laura,

Just read your posts #'s 66 & 67 - taurine is typically a tasteless white powder. The best price is found in a store that sell bodybuilders' nutrients. There are literally tons of these online if you can't find this at a local hfs. You would scarcely believe how much savings are available this way.

taurine's a must with zinc .... one way around it is turkey(very high taurine) and pumpkin seeds (good source of zinc) ... but I'm talking big amounts of these nutrients ... higher than any food source. Read more about taurine in the BTD-thread 'more about fat'

John

Posted by: Victoria, Saturday, February 4, 2006, 5:40am; Reply: 75

Quoted from connect14

Typically when we find ourselves being compulsive, there is a truth we know on a subconscious level that we are struggling to avoid. In trying to outrun said truth, we bury ourselves in compulsive eating, compulsive drinking, compulsive worrying, compulsive working, working out, etc.... It's all a dash to escape. The thing that is ironic about the whole situation is that when one stops running and avoiding and instead practices accepting, the compulsion will abate and the need to control will disintegrate, as well. It's usually not the truth that is so painful, as it is the avoidance of it. When we stop and get still and just accept everything as it is, we center and that very chaos that you say you are trying to avoid goes away on its own. The external chaos will always be there, but when you learn to get still and centered, miraculously, everything seems calm. Acceptance of every moment really is the key. Avoidance is what leads to compulsive behaviors.

Well, I think you just went right to the heart of unhappiness in the fast lane. Your insight is so simple, and so true. It makes me want to close my eyes and take a deep breath. Thank you very much.

Posted by: Whimsical, Saturday, February 4, 2006, 2:27pm; Reply: 76

I love connect14's post about compulsion - over many years I have drastically reduced my own compulsive behaviours by facing what is causing me anxiety. For me, the most bothersome thing is lack of control, but in reality nobody really has control! Life is much more peaceful when you accept this.

Posted by: 903 (Guest), Saturday, February 4, 2006, 7:23pm; Reply: 77

Thanks Cheryl, pretty much what I was thinking too. Epsom salts it is, then.

Thanks Lola, I'll dive into the archive links later. I'm sure there is good info there for a first time flusher.

OK, I am going to do this. I just have to figure out when it is going to be the most convenient. For those of you who have emailed me, let's talk soon. Maybe we can do this this together in a few days or over next weekend...

Posted by: Victoria, Saturday, February 4, 2006, 9:12pm; Reply: 78

Quoted from Whimsical

- - - over many years I have drastically reduced my own compulsive behaviours by facing what is causing me anxiety. For me, the most bothersome thing is lack of control, but in reality nobody really has control! Life is much more peaceful when you accept this.

I have this contemplation which has served me well through the fires of transformation. Whenever I feel that I am being led by my fear to run and run and work myself into a state of anxiety trying to get away from whatever seems to be the "source" of my misery......

I imagine a big scary dragon chasing me, breathing fire down my neck. I take a deep breath................STOP..........SMILE........turn around, facing my own dragon and take a flying leap, jumping down it's throat.

In doing this, I have claimed the demon as my own making, and by entering my own creation, I have destroyed it's power over me.

Posted by: Lola, Saturday, February 4, 2006, 9:33pm; Reply: 79

Victoria you should write a book!!! lol

Posted by: Laura P, Saturday, February 4, 2006, 9:35pm; Reply: 80

The problem is figuring out what your dragon is

Posted by: Connect, Saturday, February 4, 2006, 9:37pm; Reply: 81

You know, the concept seems so simple, and it really is, but yet it's something that we as human beings, don't do. Society has taught us to stick our heads in the sand and not be mindful by disappearing in TV, video games, drinking, eating, blaming others, codependency, etc....

We don't take the time to just stop and realize that everything that happens to us is part of the experience. All of it. So there is no good and bad. There are no mistakes. There is no need to control, because every experience is valuable. When you realize this, it becomes so much easier to surrender and just watch things from a witness perspective. From a nonjudgmental perspective. When we take the judgment off of ourselves, the compulsions become less and less. Just the awareness, the consciousness of something makes the demon seem so much less than it is.

A step further than even becoming aware is accepting. For example: there are some days when all I seem to want to do is EAT. This may be because I'm hormonal, sad, worked out excessively and my body needs more nutrients, etc...Whatever the reason, when I have days where all I seem to want to do is eat and eat, I can go down two paths:

1) I can get upset with myself and tell myself I have no "control" over my eating, that I'm going to get "fat" if I eat too much, why can't I be 100% compliant all the time, etc....

or

2) I can take a breath, take a step back and say to myself, "Isn't it interesting that I am so overly interested in food today? Look how upset I get with myself over this. Isn't it intriguing to note how judgmental I am of myself when I hit these places?"

It takes the judgment away and just allows me to accept that I'm not ALWAYS happy. I'm certainly not always perfect. BUT I am always in an experience. And when we start valuing the experiences, we start to feel OK about ourselves. We start to value those moments when we aren't "OK" because they teach us so much. We stop needing to run away when we realize that it's pretty amazing to be 100% completely imperfect.

And that thing called "control" takes care of itself. And so do the compulsive behaviors. Acceptance, acceptance, acceptance....

Posted by: resting, Saturday, February 4, 2006, 9:50pm; Reply: 82

these words seem 'right' then I run into the wall called 'comfort' and notice that many others are here too ... saying, 'Won't you join us? We have the BTD and we're right!'

John

Posted by: Don, Sunday, February 5, 2006, 2:13am; Reply: 83

Laura,

Looking at information on taurine there is some indication that taurine deficiency could be involved in low body temperature. I know you have that problem too. I am going to give it a try and see what happens.

Taurine is essential for phase II detoxification in the liver. I added it a long with glycine, arginine, and methione, and with B vitamins to the other supps I was already taking (zinc, molybdenum, etc), a few weeks ago. I also use fulvic acid.

I am doing a lot right now so it is hard to ascribe the gains I am making with improving my health to any one "therapy" (supplemental regimen, antifungal Rxs, thyroid glandular and homeopathic mix, ferreting out the food allergies, etc). Perhaps it is more of a "critical mass" issue and I am finally doing enough right things to push the pendulum in the right direction.

Posted by: Laura P, Sunday, February 5, 2006, 2:55am; Reply: 86

normally I have found any affect is synergistic anyways so in someways it is not important to isolate one thing

Posted by: 903 (Guest), Sunday, February 5, 2006, 5:31pm; Reply: 87

The question does come up when it is time to consider dropping one thing or another... perhaps due to inconvenience of it all or expense! This would be at a point before complete health has been restored (I am assumiong that complete health, if possible for me after my history, would mean I would only need to follow BTD principles and would not need any extra measures). I certainly hope I don't have to do all this the rest of my life!

But for now, critical mass is on my side. Now, how do I get the pendulum to swing FASTER?

Posted by: Victoria, Sunday, February 5, 2006, 8:08pm; Reply: 88

That's great to hear Judi. It's wonderful to start actually seeing progress, and may it continue!!

It seems like when you are ready to cut some things out, you can just experiment in reverse. Stop one thing for a couple of weeks and see how things change, and then try something else.

Posted by: 1089 (Guest), Monday, February 6, 2006, 5:29am; Reply: 89

Hi Laura,

I can relate to having uncertainty with one’s health. I wish you all the best in your quest to heal.

I’ve read a lot of good advice in this thread. The one thought I had was that I’ve heard that the things that we are allergic to, find a way to tell our bodies to crave them. So maybe your cravings are for protein types which really are harming you?

Best of luck with these problems.

Posted by: Connect, Monday, February 6, 2006, 5:52am; Reply: 90

Quoted from JK

Thanks Cheryl, pretty much what I was thinking too. Epsom salts it is, then.

Thanks Lola, I'll dive into the archive links later. I'm sure there is good info there for a first time flusher.

OK, I am going to do this. I just have to figure out when it is going to be the most convenient. For those of you who have emailed me, let's talk soon. Maybe we can do this this together in a few days or over next weekend...

Hi Judi,

One thing I wanted to mention with salt water flushes (especially Epsom salts)...is that they have a tendency to make candida flare up. It's pretty harsh on your intestines, and the salt water tends to strip everything from them. Make sure you double up on probiotics when you do the salt flushes.

Posted by: 903 (Guest), Monday, February 6, 2006, 6:16pm; Reply: 91

Oh geez! Thanks for the info. I do take 50 billion CFUs a day since I am trying to reclaim realestate! Hopefully the salt water will clean out some gunk and allow the antifungals to work even better. I don't know if this is the right thing to do now but I already regret not doing it months ago.

Posted by: Don, Monday, February 6, 2006, 7:03pm; Reply: 92

Quoted from connect14

One thing I wanted to mention with salt water flushes (especially Epsom salts)...is that they have a tendency to make candida flare up. It's pretty harsh on your intestines, and the salt water tends to strip everything from them. Make sure you double up on probiotics when you do the salt flushes.

I would be curious to read the information you have on this. I wonder if they are saying that candida would only flare up if no probiotics are taken after the flushes?

I certainly have never experienced this, but I think I always take probiotics afterwards. In fact, I always feel better after a liver flush and my colon and bowel movements seem healthier.

Posted by: Connect, Monday, February 6, 2006, 8:23pm; Reply: 93

Don,

I think it may just be important to stock up on probiotics after the flush. My information comes from my own personal experience (yeast presented after the last two salt water flushes), as well as similar information from my naturopath, nutritionist, and from Julia Chang. I asked her about utilizing Epsom Salts as opposed to uniodized sea salt with my flush, and she recommended using the regular salt unless you absolutely needed the Epsom salts for a bowel movement. Her reasoning was that the Epsom salts are harsh and tend to scrape everything out.

My personal experience seems to validate this, but I would imagine it may be different for everyone depending on your state of intestinal health and the amount of probiotics you supplement with. For my next flush, I am going to take a hefty dosage of probiotics and see if yeast presents itself again.

Yeast aside: I have always felt better after a flush and feel as though my body regulates better afterwards.

Posted by: Connect, Saturday, February 11, 2006, 10:05pm; Reply: 94

Quoted from Whimsical

GALLBLADDER/LIVER FLUSH (according to Heidi):

I never used the preparatory herbs Julia suggests for softening the stones and clearing the liver. At the time of my first flush, I considered myself in fine physical health, and ready & willing to take the leap directly. This approach is not for everyone, and each of us must decide how to approach the flush. However, my experience bore out how simple, harmless and useful this procedure is, and I was glad to find that the flush itself is remarkably effective on its own.

You need not take off work to do it - you could juice-fast on the Thursday & Friday (even with light snacks if needed - veg & fruit only, no fats), do the flush Friday night, and then you've two days at home for the 'clear out' and to ease back into your usual menu.

PolyFlora is a must in the follow-up - take it twice daily on the day after the flush and for two weeks afterward, to help things return to normal.

ON THE DAY OF:Only fresh (granny smith) apple juice if possible. Eat lightly if at all. Stop eating and drinking at 2:00. then, water permitted, but sip it. *Optional: Make Epsom salts (3 T to 3 cups water – 3/4 cup per dose, add some lemon or pear juice if desired)

6:00 p.m. take first dose of Epsom salts. 8:00 p.m. take second dose. Squeeze out 1 1/2 cups of red grapefruit juice, mix with 1 cup olive oil 9:30, take 1/2 the grapefruit/olive oil mix; 10:00, take the other half and LIE DOWN immediately on right side with right knee pulled up. Try to stay that way for at least 20 minutes – go to sleep if possible.

For nausea during the flush, have some room-temperature seltzer with a good dash of black cherry concentrate on your bedside table -- sip it until the nausea abates.

NEXT MORNING: Immediately on rising, *take third dose of Epsom salts. Follow with lukewarm lemon water. Last dose, two hours later. Follow with lukewarm lemon water.

Two hours after that, you can eat. Stick to vegetable soup and juices. Lots of soft stuff including veg broth or juice, no heavy protein or fats. Next day, nearly back to normal eating... just take it easy on the protein & fats.

That's it! Malic acid is available in supplement form for type O nonsecretors who wish to have the benefits of the apple juice without the pesky lectin. Since I now do this, at most, twice yearly, I have so far gone ahead with the organic fresh-juiced apples. I don't recommend it, but it's what I've done. Since I seem to be passing no stones at all anymore (just a bit of sand), I'm thinking of ditching the apple juice for the next one. stay tuned! ;-)

It may take several flushes, say one every two months over half a year, to do the job for you - but you'll feel the difference yourself, and be able to plan from there! It's certainly a great self-help tool, and may be what you've been looking for.

Hi Kate,

I notice that this flush is a lot different than Julia Chang's. (I think hers only recommend 1/2 c olive oil taken once and salt water only on the morning after. Have you tried both or only Heidi's version? I'm gearing up for my first flush and wondering which to follow.

Posted by: Whimsical, Sunday, February 12, 2006, 2:59am; Reply: 95

Hi connect14,

My first flush was according to Julia's instructions - I bought some Gold Coin Grass from her, didn't use Epsom salts, etc and I did not have a good experience. I could not fast for long and could not hold down the oil/juice mix at all, so I'm not sure that I got great benefits. However, this could be due to my nervousness about the flush and it being my first time!

I have done Heidi's version (as quoted) 3-4 times and I prefer it. I feel more comfortable with the flush in general now, but this version is also less strict with the fasting (you could do just light veggies the whole time, although I think liquids only is best) and I feel the Epsom salts really help open things up and get things moving! Julia says the Epsom salts are only for those who fear getting stones stuck, but I still feel like they help me. I don't have stones (or they are very small).

I was very apprehensive the first time I did this, but once through I realized that there is nothing to fear. Some people think this flush is too harsh or fasting is not good for the body, but really, our bodies are made to withstand much tougher conditions than this! Eating whenever you want all day everyday is actually probably less natural than periods of fasting, physiology-wise. This is a 2-3 day renewal process and is done using only liquids and foods (no artificial substances, unless you count the Epsom salts). Nothing used is harmful to the body, in my opinion.

Another benefit I found from fasting is that it can make you feel very in tune and focussed. It is hard to describe this feeling, but I found it very beneficial. It also helps you appreciate food more and realize at the same time that you can be comfortable with hunger. Suzanne wrote a great blog on fasting that you might want to read.

Finally, I think you need to think about your objectives. This flush is not about total body or digestive detox, it is about the gallbladder, primarily, and releasing stagnant bile and any stones that have formed and are interfering with the proper functioning of this organ. That is why the fasting and subsequent "shocking" of the gallbladder with the oil/juice is necessary - you need to stop the organ, then force it to start again (and dilate - hence the Epsom salts) to push out the stones. When the gallbladder is working properly (ie: playing its full role in digesting fats), the liver is under less stress and can therefore function better.

I think this is worth doing regularly, but there are also many other means by which to detox the entire digestive system, such as the protocols on this site.

Posted by: Connect, Sunday, February 12, 2006, 8:19am; Reply: 96

Hi Kate,

Thanks for the reply. I've fasted many times, so the fasting poses no issue for me whatsoever. I don't really even think of 2 days of apple juice as "fasting" to be honest.

I spoke with Julia, and she also said she doesn't recommend the Epsom salts. However, I think I'd prefer to use them over the uniodizied salt. Last time I tried just the plain salt, it didn't work remotely.

I am planning on doing this primarily for my liver as opposed to my gallbladder. I guess I'm wondering if, for my first liver flush, it might be better to do Julia's way since it only recommends 1/2 the amount of olive oil as Heidi's version.

However, if I were going to do this Julia's way (fasting 2 days, 1/2 c olive oil/lemon, salt water next morning). Well, if I wanted to incorporate the Epsoms instead of the regular salt, how much would I use? Also, do you think I will get a full benefit doing Julia's version?

Many thanks Kate.

Posted by: Whimsical, Sunday, February 12, 2006, 1:14pm; Reply: 97

Hi connect14,

If you want to incorporate the Epsom salts, just integrate them before/after the oil mixture as per the instructions. 3 Tbsp to 3 cups of water to make 4 3/4 cup doses. Drink 2 doses (2 hours apart) before the oil/juice and then the remaining 2 doses the next morning (2 hours apart).

Did Julia say that the Epsom salts can replace the salt water the next morning? I actually just do lemon water the next morning, much more pleasant after the Epsom water!

I think that Julia is more of an expert in these things than I am, so I am sure her method is beneficial. She incorporates more herbs, etc (many of which are optional), so perhaps for someone with gallbladder/liver issues, that is a better route? I don't have any issues really, I just wanted a flush to clear up any stagnant bile, etc. I like Heidi's version because I've been able to successfully complete it a few times and I don't need any extra herbs, etc.

If this is your first time, perhaps it is best to follow her instructions to the letter and see what you get. You can always tweak the flush and do it again!

Posted by: Connect, Sunday, February 12, 2006, 4:08pm; Reply: 98

Hi Kate,

Julia did not recommend the Epsom Salts at all. She said they were too harsh on the body. I don't really have any issues either, just trying to clear estrogens from my body mainly. Julia didn't believe I was in too bad of shape. My primary interest in the Epsom Salts is making sure everything comes OUT that needs to. As I said before, last time I tried just plain sea salt, nothing came out.

She recommends the fasting, followed by the 1/2 c olive oil/lemon mixture the night of the flush. No salt water until Day 2. Wake up: drink salt water and lemon.