I have been a protestant for over 30 years, and recently have begun to question my own protestant way of looking at things. After a year or so of study in Church history, and reading the church fathers etc I have decided to Join the Catholic Church. I am set to be baptized on Pentacost I believe. However, this conversion didnt come easily... I struggled for a long time, until it became such a burden that I figured I had to just walk away from the faith ( since protestantism is so obviously lacking ), or just put my faith Christ and in the Catholic church. So, here I am...But, I do still have reservations... Especially when it comes to Mary. It seems to me that many catholics go overboard with Mary, devoting themselves completely to her... the doctrines of co-Mediatrix, as well as co-redeemer, although the later is not dogma, it is certainly taught without correction from the Vatican. I admit, perhaps I do not completely grasp Marian doctrine in Catholicism... but i'm curious how the Eastern Orthodox compare when it comes to Marian doctrine. Also, I wanted to know if the Orthodox recognize Catholic baptism etc...Thank you

I am a former Roman Catholic, former Pentecostal, too, and baptized within each one. The question asking if Eastern Orthodox jurisdictions will recognize your former baptism depends. I have found out that our Bishop has given the okay to recognize Roman Catholic baptisms. So I dont have to be baptized a THIRD time. However, even though the faith and practice are very similar, you will find that you will still have at least a year of catechism study before you will be able to commune.

I have been a protestant for over 30 years, and recently have begun to question my own protestant way of looking at things. After a year or so of study in Church history, and reading the church fathers etc I have decided to Join the Catholic Church. I am set to be baptized on Pentacost I believe. However, this conversion didnt come easily... I struggled for a long time, until it became such a burden that I figured I had to just walk away from the faith ( since protestantism is so obviously lacking ), or just put my faith Christ and in the Catholic church. So, here I am...But, I do still have reservations... Especially when it comes to Mary. It seems to me that many catholics go overboard with Mary, devoting themselves completely to her... the doctrines of co-Mediatrix, as well as co-redeemer, although the later is not dogma, it is certainly taught without correction from the Vatican. I admit, perhaps I do not completely grasp Marian doctrine in Catholicism... but i'm curious how the Eastern Orthodox compare when it comes to Marian doctrine. Also, I wanted to know if the Orthodox recognize Catholic baptism etc...Thank you

If you still have reservations, do not accept baptism in the Roman Catholic Church.

We do not worship Mary, but we honor her as the Theotokos, who gave birth to God the Word.

I hope you talk about your concerns with some Catholic priest. Otherwise you might turn into lapsed Catholic rather quickly. I understand your agony since I felt that too before I was Chrismated but really there's no rush. Conversion is not about joining some organization but about God and being near to him. Rush won't help you getting saved.

Echoing the advice others have made: do not get baptized in the Roman Catholic Church until you are certain (as much as you can be) that it's right for you. Going in with reservations and an interest in Eastern Orthodoxy would not be a good idea.

Definitely talk to a Catholic priest about your concerns regarding Mary. Make sure you understand what the Church teaches about Mary before you proceed.

You must consider the endgame. So we consider them Christians and some, though not all, might consider them to have baptism (at least part of the form thereof), we do not consider them to be part of the Church, since they are not in communion with us. They do not hold the same faith as we do.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Just to clarify, Catholics do not "worship" Mary. They "venerate" Mary and the saints. Although, since Mary is Mother of our Lord she would be regarded a higher veneration (if that would be a proper description). Veneration means that she holds a great honor. Of course, Mary also holds a very important respect in the Orthodox Church, as well. I think the postion held by the churches is often times one of the bigger stumbling blocks for Protestants cosidering converting to either Orthodoxy or Catholicism.

If you are having 2nd thoughts or concerns that you may be drawn to the Orthodox church, rather than the Catholic Church you may want to hold off converting to Catholicism until your concerns are addressed. You should research the Orthodox church and talk to some of their priests. Find out for yourself where the differences between the Orthodox and Catholic are. If you are this close to converting to Catholicism, make sure to also ask a Roman Catholic priest or a Byzantine Catholic priest to get a solid understanding of the churches position in regard to Mary. Perhaps you should also attend a couple of Orthodox Divine Liturgies and see if you feel more comfortable there.

With that being said, for many people including myself, not all of your questions may be answered before you decide. It has been many years for me and although many of my concerns have been put to rest, there are others I have just had to accept for the time being.

ln any case, best wishes and my prayers for you in reaching a decision. I personally think both the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are wonderful. Ultimately, you have to be comfortable with the choice you make.

Just to clarify, Catholics do not "worship" Mary. They "venerate" Mary and the saints. Although, since Mary is Mother of our Lord she would be regarded a higher veneration (if that would be a proper description). Veneration means that she holds a great honor. Of course, Mary also holds a very important respect in the Orthodox Church, as well. I think the postion held by the churches is often times one of the bigger stumbling blocks for Protestants cosidering converting to either Orthodoxy or Catholicism.

I was going to make the same point so thank you for clarifying that.

And even though I'm Catholic, I would definitely agree the OP should NOT be baptized into the Catholic Church if he (she? sorry!) has doubts about whether it's the right course of action.

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"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Both Catholics and Orthodox hold Mary to be the Mother of God and the most blessed woman to ever live. We revere her and frequently ask for her intercessions in heaven.

However, the Roman Catholic Church has made dogma the Immaculate Conception, the belief that Mary was born immaculately "without sin" so that she could bare God in her womb. While this is not necessarily a heretical idea (although some Orthodox theologians would most certainly say it is), the Orthodox Church has not made it dogma. Mary is a saint, the Queen of Heaven and of all saints, but she is not above being saved by the blood of Christ like everybody else. This is what my priest told me.

Unofficially, a significant number of Roman Catholics have pushed for the Church to make dogma the belief that Mary is Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix of mankind. While the Orthodox Church does use these terms, I don't believe they mean them in the same way as certain Roman Catholics would use it. I admittedly don't know much about the doctrine, but I would gather that it has contributed to what some may call an "excessive veneration" of Mary, to the detriment of the Faith.

Speaking for myself, I know I don't give Mary nearly enough respect as she is owed (always to the Glory of God, mind you). I imagine this is true for most people. While there are some who have wrongfully worshiped Mary, that should not be a deterrent for us to continue to venerate her as Christians should, always to the Glory of God.

Mary is a saint, the Queen of Heaven and of all saints, but she is not above being saved by the blood of Christ like everybody else. This is what my priest told me.

FWIW the IC doctrine doesn't contradict that; Mary is indeed saved by the blood of Christ. The IC just says she was cleansed of original sin at the moment of her conception, rather than at baptism like everyone else; and that was in order to prepare her to receive the Word into her womb.

And I'm not saying this to say the doctrine is correct or not, just pointing out it doesn't contradict the idea of Mary being saved.

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"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

The question about Baptism is pretty straight forward. At least in the Greek and Antiochian jurisdictions if you are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit(Trinitarian baptism) you will probably not be rebaptized.

Mary is a saint, the Queen of Heaven and of all saints, but she is not above being saved by the blood of Christ like everybody else. This is what my priest told me.

FWIW the IC doctrine doesn't contradict that; Mary is indeed saved by the blood of Christ. The IC just says she was cleansed of original sin at the moment of her conception, rather than at baptism like everyone else; and that was in order to prepare her to receive the Word into her womb.

And I'm not saying this to say the doctrine is correct or not, just pointing out it doesn't contradict the idea of Mary being saved.

Fair enough. My understanding of the doctrine, however, was that Mary was saved at birth, whereas the rest of humanity was saved at the Resurrection. Your explanation suggests otherwise. I guess I need to look into this more before speaking out. Mea culpa.

Mary is a saint, the Queen of Heaven and of all saints, but she is not above being saved by the blood of Christ like everybody else. This is what my priest told me.

FWIW the IC doctrine doesn't contradict that; Mary is indeed saved by the blood of Christ. The IC just says she was cleansed of original sin at the moment of her conception, rather than at baptism like everyone else; and that was in order to prepare her to receive the Word into her womb.

And I'm not saying this to say the doctrine is correct or not, just pointing out it doesn't contradict the idea of Mary being saved.

Fair enough. My understanding of the doctrine, however, was that Mary was saved at birth, whereas the rest of humanity was saved at the Resurrection. Your explanation suggests otherwise. I guess I need to look into this more before speaking out. Mea culpa.

Yes, and I don't want to derail the thread any further and there are other discussions of it available here.

And I could say more but I won't! Because I'd never be able to stop! lol!

Good night everyone!

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"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Regarding the Theotokos, I would recommend the book by St. John (Maximovitch) entitled "The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God". You could probably get an inexpensive used copy from Amazon:

In this book, St. John contrasts Orthodox and Roman Catholic views concerning the Theotokos and shows how the purity and holiness of the Theotokos is denigrated by the Roman Catholic heresy regarding her "Immaculate Conception". Through this heresy, Roman Catholics seem to exalt her above humanity by claiming that, by virtue of her Immaculate Conception, she did not have the same inclination to sin as did the rest of mankind. But by exalting her very nature as though it were somehow "different" from that of the rest of mankind, this teaching actually insults and denigrates her because it devalues the purity and holiness that she achieved, thereby making her more distant.

Roman Catholic baptisms are not "recognized" as true and salvific by the Orthodox Church. Unfortunately, as can see from other posters on this forum, this is a source of major confusion in our times. Some local Orthodox Churches receive converts from Roman Catholicism by chrismation rather than baptism. This may be done recognizing that the convert already had a correct "form" of baptism, but the form needed to be completed by the grace of the Holy Spirit through reception into the true Church. The Orthodox Church does not recognize as grace-filled and salvific any baptism that is administered in heresy or schism. For a more canonical understanding of this principle, read the following article by Metropolitan Anthony (Khrapovitsky):

Roman Catholic baptisms are not "recognized" as true and salvific by the Orthodox Church. Unfortunately, as can see from other posters on this forum, this is a source of major confusion in our times. Some local Orthodox Churches receive converts from Roman Catholicism by chrismation rather than baptism. This may be done recognizing that the convert already had a correct "form" of baptism, but the form needed to be completed by the grace of the Holy Spirit through reception into the true Church. The Orthodox Church does not recognize as grace-filled and salvific any baptism that is administered in heresy or schism. For a more canonical understanding of this principle, read the following article by Metropolitan Anthony (Khrapovitsky):

Identity crisis continues. Then whose am I? The parish priest says that my Roman Catholic baptism was valid and my first Holy Communion was indeed the body of Christ. And if Peter says in Acts 10 that the 'heathen' spoke in tongues and magnified God, so did I.

I belong to God. He called me, I answered. I do not belong to a 'church' on earth because they are all apostate. And if this 'orthodox church' (political organization) does not recognize me, that is their problem.

Regarding the Theotokos, I would recommend the book by St. John (Maximovitch) entitled "The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God". You could probably get an inexpensive used copy from Amazon:

In this book, St. John contrasts Orthodox and Roman Catholic views concerning the Theotokos and shows how the purity and holiness of the Theotokos is denigrated by the Roman Catholic heresy regarding her "Immaculate Conception". Through this heresy, Roman Catholics seem to exalt her above humanity by claiming that, by virtue of her Immaculate Conception, she did not have the same inclination to sin as did the rest of mankind. But by exalting her very nature as though it were somehow "different" from that of the rest of mankind, this teaching actually insults and denigrates her because it devalues the purity and holiness that she achieved, thereby making her more distant.

Roman Catholic baptisms are not "recognized" as true and salvific by the Orthodox Church. Unfortunately, as can see from other posters on this forum, this is a source of major confusion in our times. Some local Orthodox Churches receive converts from Roman Catholicism by chrismation rather than baptism. This may be done recognizing that the convert already had a correct "form" of baptism, but the form needed to be completed by the grace of the Holy Spirit through reception into the true Church. The Orthodox Church does not recognize as grace-filled and salvific any baptism that is administered in heresy or schism. For a more canonical understanding of this principle, read the following article by Metropolitan Anthony (Khrapovitsky):

I have been a protestant for over 30 years, and recently have begun to question my own protestant way of looking at things. After a year or so of study in Church history, and reading the church fathers etc I have decided to Join the Catholic Church. I am set to be baptized on Pentacost I believe. However, this conversion didnt come easily... I struggled for a long time, until it became such a burden that I figured I had to just walk away from the faith ( since protestantism is so obviously lacking ), or just put my faith Christ and in the Catholic church. So, here I am...But, I do still have reservations... Especially when it comes to Mary. It seems to me that many catholics go overboard with Mary, devoting themselves completely to her... the doctrines of co-Mediatrix, as well as co-redeemer, although the later is not dogma, it is certainly taught without correction from the Vatican. I admit, perhaps I do not completely grasp Marian doctrine in Catholicism... but i'm curious how the Eastern Orthodox compare when it comes to Marian doctrine. Also, I wanted to know if the Orthodox recognize Catholic baptism etc...Thank you

If you still have reservations, do not accept baptism in the Roman Catholic Church.

We do not worship Mary, but we honor her as the Theotokos, who gave birth to God the Word.

We dont turn the Theotokos into a Super Being. If we did, then she would not serve as a very good example for the rest of us.

The Orthodox Church see's Protestantism as having thrown away too much and the Roman Catholic Church as having added too much.

« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 03:08:48 PM by Marc1152 »

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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Roman Catholic baptisms are not "recognized" as true and salvific by the Orthodox Church. Unfortunately, as can see from other posters on this forum, this is a source of major confusion in our times. Some local Orthodox Churches receive converts from Roman Catholicism by chrismation rather than baptism. This may be done recognizing that the convert already had a correct "form" of baptism, but the form needed to be completed by the grace of the Holy Spirit through reception into the true Church. The Orthodox Church does not recognize as grace-filled and salvific any baptism that is administered in heresy or schism. For a more canonical understanding of this principle, read the following article by Metropolitan Anthony (Khrapovitsky):

Identity crisis continues. Then whose am I? The parish priest says that my Roman Catholic baptism was valid and my first Holy Communion was indeed the body of Christ. And if Peter says in Acts 10 that the 'heathen' spoke in tongues and magnified God, so did I.

I belong to God. He called me, I answered. I do not belong to a 'church' on earth because they are all apostate. And if this 'orthodox church' (political organization) does not recognize me, that is their problem.

The Orthodox Church is not a "political organization" but the very body of Christ and "pillar and ground of truth" (1 Tim 3:15).

The teaching of the Orthodox Church is the teaching of the Apostles and Holy Fathers. The teaching of the Church concerning schism and heresy is a matter of salvation, not politics.

If you believe as you do, why in the world would you be an inquirer in the Orthodox Church? Would you be surprised to know that many clergy in ROCOR and in other jurisdictions still receive Roman Catholics and Protestants by baptism?

If you believe that all all "churches" are apostate, then you call the Lord a liar because it was He who said "the gates of Hades shall not prevail against" the Church (Matt 16:18).

If you do not believe this, and all "churches" have supposedly fallen into apostasy, when did this apostasy occur and what is the basis of your assertion?

Regarding the Theotokos, I would recommend the book by St. John (Maximovitch) entitled "The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God". You could probably get an inexpensive used copy from Amazon:

In this book, St. John contrasts Orthodox and Roman Catholic views concerning the Theotokos and shows how the purity and holiness of the Theotokos is denigrated by the Roman Catholic heresy regarding her "Immaculate Conception". Through this heresy, Roman Catholics seem to exalt her above humanity by claiming that, by virtue of her Immaculate Conception, she did not have the same inclination to sin as did the rest of mankind. But by exalting her very nature as though it were somehow "different" from that of the rest of mankind, this teaching actually insults and denigrates her because it devalues the purity and holiness that she achieved, thereby making her more distant.

Roman Catholic baptisms are not "recognized" as true and salvific by the Orthodox Church. Unfortunately, as can see from other posters on this forum, this is a source of major confusion in our times. Some local Orthodox Churches receive converts from Roman Catholicism by chrismation rather than baptism. This may be done recognizing that the convert already had a correct "form" of baptism, but the form needed to be completed by the grace of the Holy Spirit through reception into the true Church. The Orthodox Church does not recognize as grace-filled and salvific any baptism that is administered in heresy or schism. For a more canonical understanding of this principle, read the following article by Metropolitan Anthony (Khrapovitsky):

Funny that it is a Russian bishop who's saying this. It were the Russians who always received Roman converts through chrismation while the Greeks "re-"baptised.

Not always. In the early 17th century, it was the Russians who were strict and the Greeks who were lax. The Russians became more relaxed later the better to integrate former Greek Catholics, though I think Peter the Great had some part to play, also, along with Westernizing ideas of sacramental "validity". The Greeks, meanwhile, used to accept Catholics by chrismation, which was related to the pro-union thinking during the last years of the Empire. In 1751 (I think) the EP decided Catholics had to be baptized, since Catholic missionaries had been trying to win over Orthodox converts by obscuring the differences of faith.

I think Patrick Barnes in his book on "Reception of Non-Orthodox" discusses all these interesting historical developments, if you're interested.

More recently, ROCOR in 1971 reverted to accepting Catholics and Protestants by baptism, owing to the (correct) teachings on this matter followed by Greek Old Calendarists who had fled to ROCOR from the New Calendar churches. My understanding is that this is still the practice among the Russians, at least those who didn't end up joining the Moscow Patriarchate. It sounds like this is also still the practice where jah777 goes.

We dont turn the Theotokos into a Super Being. If we did, then she would not serve as a very good example for the rest of us.

Don't the Orthodox call her the "Captain of the Heavenly Armies"? I must confess I love that title as it makes me picture the Theotokos as a (way more modestly attired) Wonder Woman, brandishing a sword and leading us forward.

I have been a protestant for over 30 years, and recently have begun to question my own protestant way of looking at things. After a year or so of study in Church history, and reading the church fathers etc I have decided to Join the Catholic Church. I am set to be baptized on Pentacost I believe. However, this conversion didnt come easily... I struggled for a long time, until it became such a burden that I figured I had to just walk away from the faith ( since protestantism is so obviously lacking ), or just put my faith Christ and in the Catholic church. So, here I am...But, I do still have reservations... Especially when it comes to Mary. It seems to me that many catholics go overboard with Mary, devoting themselves completely to her... the doctrines of co-Mediatrix, as well as co-redeemer, although the later is not dogma, it is certainly taught without correction from the Vatican. I admit, perhaps I do not completely grasp Marian doctrine in Catholicism... but i'm curious how the Eastern Orthodox compare when it comes to Marian doctrine. Also, I wanted to know if the Orthodox recognize Catholic baptism etc...Thank you

I am 35 years old and was just received into Orthodoxy from being a cradle, traditional Roman Catholic.

The Roman Church has had a tendency to develop an entire theological system of the Blessed Mother based on faulty Roman teachings on Original Sin, namely the Immaculate Conception and the implications that flow from that. Essentially the Theotokos is made into something other than human in that not only is She all-pure, immaculate and blessed but also incapable of sinning since a weakened will is a result of Original Sin.

If you want to see the extreme end of Roman Catholicism's teaching on Mary, I would suggest Louis De Monfort's "True Devotion to Mary."

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I hereby recant of defending "orthodoxy" and trying to persuade fellow Catholics of embracing schism. I adhere to the Catholic Faith as preserved by the Church of Rome and Her Pontiffs.

Roman Catholic baptisms are not "recognized" as true and salvific by the Orthodox Church. Unfortunately, as can see from other posters on this forum, this is a source of major confusion in our times.

For those reading this thread, the reason this is a source of major confusion in our times is that many of us are familiar with the ancient debates between St. Cyprian of Carthage and Pope St. Stephen of Rome over the validity of heterodox baptism. Yes, the Eastern Church, whose traditions the Orthodox Church has inherited by and large, agreed with St. Cyprian that baptism outside the Church is no baptism at all. But many of us don't think of Orthodoxy as an East-vs.-West thing. Just because something was the belief of the ancient Eastern Church doesn't make it automatically correct, especially when you consider that Rome and the West had a different understanding of baptism even as early as the third century.

I post the above only as a counterpoint to jah777's attempt to speak for the Orthodox Tradition on this matter. I don't intend for my comments to start yet another validity-of-heterodox-baptism debate, the likes of which are not appropriate for the Convert Issues board. If you wish to take me to task for my corrective, then, I ask that you please do so on another board.

We dont turn the Theotokos into a Super Being. If we did, then she would not serve as a very good example for the rest of us.

Don't the Orthodox call her the "Captain of the Heavenly Armies"? I must confess I love that title as it makes me picture the Theotokos as a (way more modestly attired) Wonder Woman, brandishing a sword and leading us forward.

We dont turn the Theotokos into a Super Being. If we did, then she would not serve as a very good example for the rest of us.

Don't the Orthodox call her the "Captain of the Heavenly Armies"? I must confess I love that title as it makes me picture the Theotokos as a (way more modestly attired) Wonder Woman, brandishing a sword and leading us forward.

I became Protestant(ish) when I became an adult, but then got disillusioned. I went looking for the original Church, which brought me to RCC or OC. The choice was difficult at first, but now I am clearly glad that I joined the OC.

What's funny is that I spoke with an equal amount of RCC priests and OC priests about which Church to join between the two. The Catholics were easy and almost encouraging about me joining the OC, while the OC priests advised me against going back to the RCC. Certainly made my choice easier

« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 12:49:23 PM by john_mo »

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Love is not blind; that is the last thing that it is. Love is bound; and the more it is bound the less it is blind.