You missed my point.
Ret doesn't see many changes because it is played by so many people, and changes that change the way Ret works could potentially (like Holinka says) have huge impacts on the game. The changes that could be made would also have a huge affect on a large amount of the player base and I'm sure that not all would be happy with said changes.

There will always be some people who do not like the changes made to anything, and because Ret is such a widely played spec, I assume Blizz doesn't want to risk upsetting a large amount of players, especially if the changes made are thought up by any self proclaimed veterans of the spec. For all we know that Vet could have no clue whats going on with the spec, or have no clue of the direct and indirect impacts of any changes they think should be made to the spec.

Pointing out Vanguards and Ret's places in RBGs were examples that even though everyone shouts that its impossible for Ret to get taken to RBGs and that Ret is poor, Ret still manages in some cases. Imo Ret "working" in some cases is much better than Ret "working" in all cases, sets players apart and there's nothing wrong with that.

Also, I should've put a "inb4 Vanguards has rank 1 friends" somewhere in my first post, as thats what every Ret has jumped too and will always jump to when Vanguards is mentioned.

I can also almost guarantee that not every single Ret playing an RBG ever is friends with the person who set them up.

I understand your point.....but you do know that every rule in this world has an exceptions no matter what it's you can't judge the spec being not so bad just .....just because Vanguard or some rare certain genius do very well with Ret doesn't mean Ret is not that bad in pvp or pve. Compare to other melees in pvp and RBGs? it's one of the worst if not the worst specs ever at the moment....not because it doesn't give any good enough utility to justifiy bringing them in RBGs but also almost everything the Ret does the holy spec can do it more and better. So at this point bringing Ret in any serious high rating RBG will be a burden and gimping your combo setup instead of benefits it....I'm not talking about ppl like Vanguard or some genius I'm talking in general here.

Similar to what Capt. Pinkycrawler stated in a recent blue, Ret should be based around Damage 1st like Arthas + Uther.

I am fine not pulling the damage of some other specs as long as i bring the utility. You need to excel on something in order to be wanted. Buffing the utility of the so called "pure classes" is a major - indirect nerf to us. If they want to walk down that road, they need to balance the damage too or jeopardize making some specs completely obsolete / unwanted.

there is still a lot of prejudice against ret from vanilla, and theres still the perception that paladins are not allowed to have a decent damage dealing spec for pvp because holy is so exceptionally strong, shamans are in much the same position, why druids are exempt from this i'll never know.

Feral is often godlike strong and balance group control is absurd (while also having good damage) with solar beam + vortex. That's the reason why. Even without clone/root/bear form. Druid damage in pvp were often better than shaman and always better than ret. It's actually the only hybrid class who can choose what role they want to play.

Do you think every spec should expect to be viable in high-end arena? I don't see the same expectation level from Holy Priests, or Arcane Mages, or Blood DKs, or Enhance Shamans, or any other specs that see equal or worse representation in arenas. Ret's toolbox has always been better suited to RBGs where it does fine. It'd be nice if rets were on par with rogues/shadow priests/mages, but I think everyone would be happier if they just realize that is never very likely to happen.

Holy priests should be Disc
Arcane mages should be Frost
Blood DKs should not play tank spec in arena
Enhancement Shamans should be Elemental

The main issue is not our defense it's our sustain dmg outside of our burst cds.

you're kinda wrong there. hop on ptr, you'll notice how everybody has a base resilience of 65%, and if you start stacking full resilience, you'll only increase from 65% to 68%, which isn't much of a change. so i started doing some theorycrafting and i slapped on the 4set pve bonus onto my ret just to check it out, which basically gives you a 40% chance on your crusader strike to make your next Templar's Verdict deal all holy damage. (coupled with inquisition, it basically increases your TV's damage by a shit load and ignores all armor on the target). feels good critting for 110k outside cds. wearing pve 4set bonus fixes our damage outside of cooldowns. it's sort of like the 5.2 SoJ TfB thing they did.

you're kinda wrong there. hop on ptr, you'll notice how everybody has a base resilience of 65%, and if you start stacking full resilience, you'll only increase from 65% to 68%, which isn't much of a change. so i started doing some theorycrafting and i slapped on the 4set pve bonus onto my ret just to check it out, which basically gives you a 40% chance on your crusader strike to make your next Templar's Verdict deal all holy damage. (coupled with inquisition, it basically increases your TV's damage by a shit load and ignores all armor on the target). feels good critting for 110k outside cds. wearing pve 4set bonus fixes our damage outside of cooldowns. it's sort of like the 5.2 SoJ TfB thing they did.

Aside from you assertion that going from 65% to 68% isn't a big deal (it is), Ret still suffers from a lot of defensive shortcomings. Specifically our weakness versus both disarms AND silences for stopping our damage, lack of any anti-melee ability (such as disarm or phys dmg redux CD, unless you glyph DivProt), and our reliance/"balance" around Bubble (and LoH in WPVP/regBGs) that keeps the class hamstrung. So, defensives ARE still a concern, but thats only part of the issue.

Problem is, every other class/spec that is competitive has their burst on a shorter timeframe. Frost Mage with 30 sec CD on Deep, FDK with 60 sec on PoF, SPriest with ~30 sec on 3-orb DP/insanity. So, if they go to set up the kill and fail or get CCd/countered, they can re-try again in 30-60 seconds. That means, for a mage for example, first burst gets trinketed, next 3 all cannot.

Ret burst is TWO MINUTES by comparison (not counting in GoAK at FIVE), which coincidentally is enough time to reset trinkets.

Maybe 4pc PVE will be a band-aid for this tier, but we're still bringing Honda Civics to a street race against Corvettes/Lambos/whatever.

Last edited by Nairobi; 2013-05-10 at 05:27 PM.

Originally Posted by Malthanis

We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)

Aside from you assertion that going from 65% to 68% isn't a big deal (it is),

whether i have 65% resil or 68% i still get globaled by frost mages without any defensive cooldowns so i personally think it isn't much of a difference (it'll probably take an extra ice lance to kill me)

but yeah that was my point, i stated that our mobility is fine, our defense is shit, and our sustain damage damage is ~ok~ (only with the 4set pve bonus)

whether i have 65% resil or 68% i still get globaled by frost mages without any defensive cooldowns so i personally think it isn't much of a difference (it'll probably take an extra ice lance to kill me)

but yeah that was my point, i stated that our mobility is fine, our defense is shit, and our sustain damage damage is ~ok~ (only with the 4set pve bonus)

Just trying to clarify: 65% to 68% reduction is roughly the equivalent of an extra Glyph of TV up 100% of the time.

Ignoring PVP power (or rather assuming equal attacks prior to reux), a 100k ice lance hits for 35k in 5.3, Stacking resil (to 68%) reduces that to 32k, a ~9.2% reduction for those 3%.

Personally, just giving Ret back its stun break on HoF would be fine (IMO). Give it a 30sec ICD (or make it not function if freedom is already active) even, to prevent double-breaking with Clemency, since I'm sure people would cry OP. But breaking that Deep can be game changing, and would give Ret a good "defensive" without introducing another cooldown for the class (which would throw off Holy PVP and Prot PVE).

Originally Posted by Malthanis

We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)

you're kinda wrong there. hop on ptr, you'll notice how everybody has a base resilience of 65%, and if you start stacking full resilience, you'll only increase from 65% to 68%, which isn't much of a change. so i started doing some theorycrafting and i slapped on the 4set pve bonus onto my ret just to check it out, which basically gives you a 40% chance on your crusader strike to make your next Templar's Verdict deal all holy damage. (coupled with inquisition, it basically increases your TV's damage by a shit load and ignores all armor on the target). feels good critting for 110k outside cds. wearing pve 4set bonus fixes our damage outside of cooldowns. it's sort of like the 5.2 SoJ TfB thing they did.