Discuss the possibility of Terrakion being banned from the ORAS UU tier.

Use this thread to discuss Terrakion's effect in the metagame. Talk about the different sets it can use, its best partners/team support and potential checks & counters. State your opinion on whether you think Terrakion should be banned or if it should stay in the ORAS UU tier.

All opinions are welcome to be presented, and arguments may be shared between players, as long as you back it up with knowledge and experience and refrain from making your entire points based on responses to others. Theorymonning is not a valid argument and anyone who bases their opinion in it risks being infracted.

Do not forget that, if a consensus can't be found after this discussions reaches its end, a vote will be held.

Eh, that thing is quite powerfull atm.
It can run so many sets, including Lead Taunt/Stealth Rocks, Choice Band, Choice Scarf, Double Dance, Sub SD.
Right now I can't really think of a stop to it, Chesnaught can take one CC and has to use Spikey Shield in order to try to KO it back with Drain Punch
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 184-217 (48.4 - 57.1%)
Another nice counter could be Gourgeist, but it's NU iirc and it will only show overcentralization.

And finaly, the only reliable switch in to Choices is Cresselia, it can take anything, cripple with Twave, use Moonlight/Super effective hits.
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 154-183 (34.6 - 41.2%)

On the offensive side, Terrakion get the very good EdgeQuake, Close Combat, X-Scizor to hit Celebi, Iron Head/Poison Jab to hit fairies.
Sub SD is a very good set, you can run Leftovers or Salac to boost speed and sweep even more harder or Lum in case you're scared of random status.

Nidoking resist dual stab but get destroyed by EQ which is super common.

Really, I was really worried when Terrakion entered UU, and I wasn't wrong, it's a force to be wreckon with and has to go.
Ban

Ok so terrak is a fast, hard hitting pokemon. 108 speed is pretty good in uu, and most mons that can outspeed it get wrecked by its stabs. Speaking of its stabs, rock+fightning has pretty freaking solid coverage in uu, with only a very few mons resisting them (and most mons that do get smacked by earthquake).

Terrak is probably not the most versatile mon out there. It does have a handful of different viable sets, but most counters/checks will counter/check most sets (example:doublade counters/check pretty much evry single set). Viable (and common sets) include:scarfed, banded, swords dance and rock polish (sd+rp works, too). There’s also sub (most times with salac or a boosting move) and, of course, the sr taunt lead. Offensive moves include close combat, rock slide/stone edge, earthquake and iron head/poison jab (you can run x-scissor if you really hate celebi). I personally think the banded and sd sets are the bests, sd+LO being a favorite of mine. Banded is good at punching holes on the opposing team, and sd is just a terrifying sweeper, capable of slaughtering teams on its own. The other viable items on sd sets are probably lum and salac berry.

All in all, a pretty scary mon. How does some1 deal with this thing? Revenge killing is, often times, your best option (this is especially the case if you’re running offense). I’m going to list common uu mons that can outspeed terrak (including scarfers) and deal decent damage to it. As mentioned a few lines ago, most of these mons are unable to come in safely on terrak’s stab moves.

Serperior: Deserves a mention since LS is very likely to OHKO, but it's going to rise next month rip.

Out of all mentioned mons, not a single of them is capable of switching safely on both stabs. Some of have an immunity/resistance to a stab move though, meaning that with correct predictions, you can beat it/force it out. The last method for revenge killing it is through priority, so I’ve decided to list some viable options.

Crawdaunt: 252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 296-352 (91.6 - 108.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO, the power is here. Even without an item that increases your attack, it does more than 60%.¸

Other priority moves aren’t listed for the simple fact that they deal pitiful damage. Again, none of these are switching into terrakion without dying/taking a lot of damage. I think it’s safe to say that checking terrakion with offensive mons is extremely hard, so let’s see if the more defensive side of the spectrum can deal with it better.

Cresselia: One of the best “counters” there is, lives pretty much anything and has access to reliable recovery; 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 152+ Def Cresselia: 111-132 (25 - 29.7%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery. Most cress sets run psyshock or moonblast, so you can safely KO terrak. Do note that if terrak SDs on the switch, you are likely to be 2KOd by stone edge (you can’t live if you switch into sr (assuming stone edge hits)). Max def cress is probably one of the safest switches into terrak.

Hippowdon: Hippo will beat terrak in most cases if it is healthy (eq OHKOs after a CC). If hippo switches into sr, banded cc will beat it, and you will need hippo to be pretty damn healthy if you’re hoping to switch into +2. Solid check, considering it has reliable recovery.

Swampert: If you’re trying to counter terrak with pert, you’re doing it wrong ; 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 151-178 (37.6 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. Banded will 2HKO, +2 deals a LOT (you will need to have atleast 75% of your hp to have a chance at living). Eq/scald can 2hko, so you can force scarf terrak out a few times I guess.

Mega Aggron: Eq 2hkos, heavy slam will 2ko. CB terrak has a pretty good shot at killing you 2 hits. SD won’t ohko at +2 (unless your opponent is a savage and runs LO, in which case he has slim chances of killing you outright ; +2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 294-347 (85.4 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO), so you can probably force it out at least once. Lack of recovery makes this more of a check than anything (+0 3HKOs).

Doublade:Probably the best counter there is, only fears EQ, and gyro will OHKO with minimum speed. The only way terrak is wearing this thing down is with eq on the switch, but even if its banded, chances are you’ll have to nail the prediction a few times to take doublade down ; 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade: 118-140 (36.9 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. Resttalk is probably a counter (and its not a complete ass mon in uu).

Mega Blastoise: Yeah, that’s not a check lel ; 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 184 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 168-198 (48.6 - 57.3%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO. No recovery doesn’t help at all, at least u can OHKO with scald. Defensive blastoise obv does a better job at it, but it only means you can reliably force terrak out 1 time (won’t even work if its banded).

Chesnaught: Can force scarfed terrak out pretty easily ; 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 123-145 (32.3 - 38.1%) -- 2.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery, drain punch scores an easy 2HKO. You can take a banded cc, use spiky shield, live the second and KO afterwards, but only if your hp is full (or pretty damn near it). Semi-reliable recovery makes chesnaught an OK check, I guess.

Tangrowth: Lives anything, and drain will safely 2hko (you can OHKO if its at -1). The only way terrak would beat this easily is with banded cc and with sr/spikes. Can be kept healthy thanks to regenerator. SD+ LO deals massive damage, and tang will need to be at a very high amount of health to live. Still a good check.

Gligar: One of the few reliable checks, choiced variants aren’t likely to get through it ;252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 118-139 (35.4 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. The only thing it fears is sd, which can potentially 2HKO with stone edge. Earthquake from gligar is a safe 2HKO. Access to reliable recovery means this is probably 1 of the best checks.

Nidoqueen: Probably the best offensive checks, as it resists both stabs. Switching into eq is really bad though (specially vs cb variants). Switching into sd will result in swift death by earthquake (unless you are running max def, and even then, you’ll need to be at full). Offensive queen can OHKO with EP, so you can beat choiced variants locked into stab moves (except for cb close combat, as it can 2HKO offensive nidoqueen).

Suicune: The only thing you can reliably beat is scarfed variant ; 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 127-151 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery. It should be a given that sd+lo will deal heavy damage and that cune needs to be healthy to switch in on it, but I’ll show the calc anyway ; +2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 331-391 (81.9 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, mother of god look at this savagery.

Weezing: The only move you fear is stone edge, and unless you are at low hp, chances are you will win anyway ; 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 103-123 (30.8 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery. Switching into banded cc isn’t recommended though. Rip if terrak is sub. Semi-reliable recovery makes weezing a good check, but it isn’t a very popular mon in the uu environment.

Golurk: Terrak aint doing shit with its stabs, and eq from offensive variants OHKO terrak. Banded EQ is a 2hko on standard variants though, but it’s a good check otherwise. Lack of recovery doesn’t help though. Also, like weezing, this isn’t a popular uu mon.

Cofagrigus:+0 stone edge is only a 4HKO, and you have access to will-o and pain split. Unless you’ve been weakened a fair bit beforehand, chances are you will beat terrakion.

Quagsire: Beats pretty much everything except for banded variants (LO is likely to 2HKO with cc, but needs to attack right away). EQ is an easy 2HKO, and you can recover to keep yourself healthy. Pretty good check.

Granbull: Thanks to intimidate, it’ll beat pretty much every variant, and can 2hko with play rough. That’s a very good check tbh, shame it’s not very popular in uu (maybe for a reason though).

Pretty sure there are other good checks/counters out there, but these are” popular answers” to terrak. The list isn’t complete and I welcome other users to add stuff to it (notice how some of the best counters aren't popular at all in uu). As I mentioned earlier, most defensive mons will be beaten by banded or sd sets (sd sets totally demolish teams with any kind of prior damage). I think (and I hope) that these calcs show how freaking powerful and threatening terrakion is.

However, it is not without its flaws. As with all offensive mons, it cannot switch in a ridiculous amount of times in (sr resistance helps a lot though), since its defensive typing is kind of poor. It’s natural bulk is decent, but it isn’t saving him from powerful stab moves. The best way to bring it in is probably through voltturn support, but taking advantage of resistances (such as fire and normal) is also a good method. Doubling is, of course, a pretty good way of bringing terrak in (means you have to rely on predictions, but that’s how most offensive mons work anyway so idk if that’s 1 massive disadvantage). The same thing goes for using sd : u pretty much have to predict. However, this isn't all that hard to do, considering the amount of stuff terrakion can force out.

All in all, I think terrak’s sheer power (and coverage) make it an unhealthy force in the uu metagame, and I think that it should be banned.

These area all shaky checks because if hazards are up most of them cant switch into a banded hit, Banded Terrak has too much power for the tier.

Suicune
Hippowdon (switches in on any hit and can eq back)
Cof (can burn it and take any hit switching in)
Cresselia (Takes any hit and can twave/psychic back)
Weezing (barring sub)
Reun (Can Switch in on anything that isn't a banded stone edge and can psychic)
Doublade

Serperior (Lives any non banded attack and outspeeds and kills with Leaf Storm)
Nidoking/Queen (resists both stabs and can kill with epower)
Faster psychics Starmie, Espeon and [Mega] Alakazam (Out speeds and kills with psychic)
Scarf Pokémon like Mienshao, Heracross, Jirachi and the occasional Shaymin, all kill with the appropriate move

Terrakion has enough bulk to live common priority users like a Crawdaunt/Gatr Jet and a Lucario Bullet Punch

As shown in the calcs above everything has a lot of trouble switching in on Terrak if there are hazards are on the field. Only a handful of things have the ability to outspeed and OHKO Terrak making it a huge problem for the tier.

But anyways, Terrakion is a huge problem in the current UU metagame. With its nice speed tier, decent 91/90/90 bulk, and a 129 attack stat Terrakion is really hard to handle. And deserves a BAN

Can't really add anything to the dark one's post without sounding redundant, just stating that I agree it should be banned. One very minor thing he missed though was that Terrak checks Victini pretty well, but other than that I can't think of anything.

On with the post to earn my person some hate. I won't go into detail cuz snaga and banana have said lots already.

Okay, Terrakion is fast, strong, blah, blah, you can read all that shit above. It has some really nice sets and might just be too centralizing, even though I believe that Def Forretress or Donphan both can tank anything and revenge kill in return with Gyro Ball / Earthquake respectively. I myself never had a problem with Terrakion (if not scarfed, which is kinda rare) even though I run offense (webz :] ). Calcs were given above anyway, so I won't bother posting those now. Apart from that, I'd like a look at the larger scale.

With the last drops from OU we've had, something like Umbreon is running around UU. If I can read the ranked stats correctly, Mew will drop as well. Blissey is already there. In short, all the mons from the XY era that turned UU into a stallfest when the meta looked really similar bar Slowbro are returning to UU after they left (with Terrakion, admittedly). Terrakion being banned would result into offense players running into massive trouble in UU, as Terrakion is one of the few things that can reliably kill Umbreon. I think you get my idea, Terrakion as an offensive presence might just be a little helpful in UU. Don't get me wrong - I completely agree that Terrakion doesn't have too many checks atm, can run diff sets and thus is very viable. Ban it if you must, but keep in mind the tier might turn for the worse, especially if Serp leaves for OU too, which it most likely will.

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I lol'd

Idk wtf you were doing in XY but there wasn't one stage of XY UU that wasn't completely HO dominated, stall was the least used and worst playstyle and continues to be..are you lost? Thundy-T, Mega Hera, Diggersby, Crawdaunt, Gothitelle, Gothorita, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Medi, Rainspam, Specs Analytic Magnezone, Deo-D, Staraptor. That was XY UU, and you have the audacity to say it was a stallfest. I've seen your teams, you literally flock to the most braindead HO threats possible not wanting to do a bit of work with teambuilding. Now you still have Togekiss, Mega Zam, Goth, Crawdaunt, etc and you're worried about something cancerous leaving that would force you to think about building for more than 5 minutes? Horrendous argument, Terrak getting one check in Mew isn't going to change anything. You need to stop posting with the mindset of what threats you want to keep because you're terrified of the non-existent stall, and post with the mindset of health for the tier.

Can't really add anything to the dark one's post without sounding redundant, just stating that I agree it should be banned. One very minor thing he missed though was that Terrak checks Victini pretty well, but other than that I can't think of anything.

I lol'd

Idk wtf you were doing in XY but there wasn't one stage of XY UU that wasn't completely HO dominated, stall was the least used and worst playstyle and continues to be..are you lost? Thundy-T, Mega Hera, Diggersby, Crawdaunt, Gothitelle, Gothorita, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Medi, Rainspam, Specs Analytic Magnezone, Deo-D, Staraptor. All I remember is losing to your stall when you were on top of the ladder. I wouldn't say "completely HO dominated" then. That was XY UU, and you have the audacity to say it was a stallfest. I've seen your teams, you literally flock to the most braindead HO threats possible not wanting to do a bit of work with teambuilding. Now you still have Togekiss, Mega Zam, Goth, Crawdaunt, etc and you're worried about something cancerous leaving that would force you to think about building for more than 5 minutes? Do me a favor and stop the pointless flaming. With the same right I could say that you just want offensive threats banned cuz you don't want to adapt to them in a metagame. Horrendous argument, Terrak getting one check in Mew isn't going to change anything. You need to stop posting with the mindset of what threats you want to keep because you're terrified of the non-existent stall, and post with the mindset of health for the tier. And is it bad to want some offensive threats to stay? Seriously, it's not about threats "I want to keep", just killing off all offensive threats won't help anyone. Mega Zam is leaving as well, the way it looks, btw.

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So, pls: Things will drop in five days, I'd say wait until that happens and a few days after that and don't quickban becuz top-notch UU players say so atm. I wouldn't disagree that Terrakion is broken atm, but that might change.

All I remember is losing to your stall when you were on top of the ladder. I wouldn't say "completely HO dominated" then.

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Yes, the stall team I spent approximately 2 months on, slowly adapting to the changes beat you every time. This was when Deoxys, Diggersby, Medi, Gothitelle, etc was around. Does that change the fact that 95% of the ladder was HO and the other 4% was balance? I was also one of the only, if not the only person using stall on the ladder page 1-2. That's your excuse for XY UU being a "stallfest" eh? You not being able to beat my stall team. Alrighty then.

Do me a favor and stop the pointless flaming. With the same right I could say that you just want offensive threats banned cuz you don't want to adapt to them in a metagame.

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You're gnna talk to me about adaption? During the Deo twins, Digg, Crawd, Mega Hera era when I was literally like the only person using stall, you actually have the temerity to suggest that I'm for certain bans because "I can't adapt"?

And is it bad to want some offensive threats to stay? Seriously, it's not about threats "I want to keep", just killing off all offensive threats won't help anyone. Mega Zam is leaving as well, the way it looks, btw.

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No, we kill off the broken and braindead offensive threats which are making ORAS UU a shithole. Do you want a list of offensive mons that can stallbreak that will never get banned? Chandelure, Hydreigon, Nidoking, Victini, Salamence, Haxorus, Infernape, Staraptor, NP Celebi, NP Lucario, CritDra, etc. These are all stallbreaking behemoths, but some like Terrak, Crawdaunt, Togekiss, etc are way too insanely centralizing.

So, pls: Things will drop in five days, I'd say wait until that happens and a few days after that and don't quickban becuz top-notch UU players say so atm. I wouldn't disagree that Terrakion is broken atm, but that might change.

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Again, I don't think there's a chance that Mew dropping will change anything. If anything that would make the meta more centralized around Mew.

Also, I wasn't flaming but that post was somewhat abrasive. It's only because I've been waiting for like 5 months for things to start getting suspected, I've been a bit agitated with the way things have been and when somewhat posts what is, imo, complete nonsense on the first major suspect (that isn't a mon that is going to rise next month unlike the previous suspects) then yea I kind of got annoyed, it's nothing personal.

I'll give my opinion about Terrakion, but I'm keeping it short & simple seeing as @NananaBatman & the rest did a excellent job of explaining the situation with him in our current meta.

Terrakion has a great offensive typing + stats (129 atk & 108 speed with the ability to set up/using choiced items is enough to be a force to be reckoned with).
His moves are well covered based on Rock+Fighting stabs and Earthquake. Questionable moves are X-Scizor/Iron Head/Poison Jab (not really worth it since Stone Edge = 150 vs SE 160 and CC obviously does more).
Checks & Counters are basically Psychics/Ghosts, so pairing him with mons like Hydreigon/Crawdaunt can give him room for hole breaking potentials as well as late game cleanings.
SR resist is also nicely & his ability (Justified) means he can come in freely on Umbreons/Locked Hydreigons/Obvious Knock Off play to get a +1 and be an even more Threat.

With all these factors in mind I'd have to say Terrakion is currently unhealthy for the UU Tier.

Solid arguments for a Pro-Ban has been giving and even though most stuff has been pointed out, I'd still like to hear other opinions about Terrakion.
Keep in mind to point out facts & knowledge.

Can we please just get this thing the fuck out of here? These tier changes were complete garbage..WE COULDN'T EVEN GET MEW OR MANDIBUZZ. I don't know why it hasn't been banned already, I assume it's because of that 2 week suspecting period but that's bullshit because the Sablenite suspect barely lasted a week. The reason is because no one posted, it was a dead thread..just like this one and MegaZam. Please get them out of here already so we can move on to Togekiss or something because now with Mammo dropping (which has like no switch ins at all) this tier reached a new level of garbage.
MEEEEEEEEWWWWWW
:,[

Ok, it's obvious where this suspect is going so I'll finish this right now.

Terrakion is 1 fearsome mon. It has great atk + speed (129/108) and a solid typing + coverage (Stone Edge/CC/EQ).
It can run Sash SR+Taunt/LO SD+3 atks/Sub SD+Salac/CB/SC. Every set has his own way of dealing with the main threats based on your team, and for what it's worth I already explained there aren't many solid checks besides some Psychics/Ghosts (which can be handled nicely by a Dark-Type partner).

So based on his Sheer Power, Speed, Decent Bulk and Great Coverage Terrakion will be banned from the ORAS UU tier.