Posted
by
timothy
on Monday February 17, 2003 @05:09PM
from the sweetness-and-light dept.

MeatWad writes "Sony has announced the SJ33 Palm OS 4 model with a high res color screen and mp3 player for $299. At the same time the FCC has leaked info on the next Palm OS 5 Clie with bluetooth and an integrated keyboard called the TG50. Sony can sure crank out the cool gadgets."

but only mentions a memory stick as a media format. The stick mentioned is 4 mb. That's enough space for approximately one song at high quality. The article also mentions the memory stick is incompatible with the new memory pro format.

The SJ33 upgrades the SJ30's 33MHz processor to the 66MHz Dragonball Super VZ running Palm OS v4.1. It has 16 MB of internal RAM (of which 15MB are available) and 4 MB of flash ROM.

The SJ33 uses standard memory sticks although the device doesn't come with one. With the focus on music playback, Sony might want to consider bundling offers because users are definitely going to need one. It is not compatible with the forthcoming Memory Sick Pro format.

First off, that's a snowboarding jacket (recognisable by the padding on the rear...snowboarders spend more time sitting down than actually riding:) ). Second, the way and places I ski, a harddisk would be skipping every second. Mechanical systems just can't handle the vibrations...that's why I need solid state.

The solid state memory buffer on the ipod is good for something like 20 minutes before it has to hit the drive again. How many downhill runs can you find where you can ski b*lls to the wall for more than 20 minutes straight? The iPod is very ruggedly built. I've dropped the thing from chest height while jogging onto concrete, and all it got was a few scratches. It was still playing when I picked it back up and plugged by headphones back in.

Which is, of course, rightfully moderated as Insightful, and probably Interesting, as you explicitly state, that the article already says it.

No blame on you.

To be a little bit more constructive.The largest "classic" Memory Sticks are available to up to 128Mb, the larger ones are already Memory Stick Pro (or Memory Stick Select).

AFAIK, the size limitation is not inherent in the technology of the Memory Sticks (the controller is on the stick). It is probably more a problem of usability (low data-transfer) of the classic sticks.

The Memory Stick Pro features a parallel controller, which twentyfolds the theoretically bandwidth. This new controller makes the new Stick incompatible.

The Clie NX and NZ series and some Vaio notebooks are (or will be) compatible with the Memory Stick Pro format, after a software upgrade.

This begs the question, why won't the SJ33 be compatible with the Memory Stick Pro?Do they produce some retro-version of Memory Stick-controllers for the new SJ33?

You are right, most palm apps are small. However, apps are only a part of the picture. I'm a medical student, almost a doctor, and there are tons of medical programs, books, drug databases available for the palm. The books and databases are often as large as 4mb. You can see where I'm going with this as 16 mb fills up fast. You can extend this example to many other professions.

Also, I use my Clie to listen to mp3's since I pretty much always have it on me anyway. Again, a large memory stick is important for this functionality.

As far as size, 128 mb is starting to get small, but a Sony MS is about the same price of all the competition's flash so I don't really complain. It will be nice when they start releasing the larger sizes, however.

of the Slashdot Effect on servers? Are we seeing a new paradigim of intelligent sysadmins that reformat their pages for when the link is posted to/.???? The universe will end if the Slashdot Effect is countered!!!

Aren't their documents public information? I believe that is how people are finding them. I know that the blue tooth integration in the new powerbooks was leaked in the same manner, and I remember some handspring stuff getting out like this also. In the case of apple, they pulled the application.

If the documents are not pulic info, then the FCC needs to get to know the ins and outs of a little document called the NDA.

The info and pictures get "leaked" when Sony, Palm, or anyone else who makes an electronic device has it reviewed by the FCC before it goes retail. The info get's entered into the FCC's database, which is searchable from the web. I guess there are people who check the FCC search engine every day for new stuff from Sony, Palm, Sharp, etc.

The FCC is the best rumor site on the Net. They've leaked PowerBooks, Blackberries, Palms, you name it. I'm surprised hardware companies haven't lobbied to keep those applications secret until the device is released.

Actually, I'd like to see the code that PalmInfoCenter uses to implement the "Welcome Slashdot vistor" message. I've thought about doing something similar for another site, and while I understand how to parse the Referer header, I'd just as soon borrow someone's tried-and-true code as develop it myself.

Heck, this functionality should be built into anything using mod-perl, PHP, ASP, etc. to redirect visitors to a static mirror of a page.

I can certainly appreciate the gadgets Sony comes out with. Not only do they have a "cool" factor, but they are useful as well. I also can understand why their stuff is pricey. However, this does not change the fact that I can not afford any of their products I would like. I would like to get their picture book and dual boot windows xp and debian on it. I'm one that likes compact with long battery life. It doesnt need to be a powerhouse computer. The $1700 pricetag is way too much. I can only wait to see what these new PDAs price at.

at a Price indeed. Do a quick search on a Best Buy website and check out Sony's overpriced personal cd players! I mean, can you really justify paying $70 for a Sony versus $30-$40 for a different, but still good, name like Magnavox? Of course, you might get some good headphones, or extra little junk, but come on. I don't own Sony anything and haven't had any problems! Then again . . .

For what it's worth, I got a great deal on a Sony CD-MP3 player. It's nice looking, (with a red backlit LCD, which I like) compact, and rugged.

I also paid $100 for it, with a car kit. Yeah, I could have probably found something a little cheaper online (I bought it at WalMart) but I'm really picky about user interface, and I wanted to be able to take it back if I hated it.

So, even though I'm biased against Sony electronics in general, this is a nice piece of gear.

Sony has some great form factors - the only problem is that its useless to me without cellular data capability. And on top of that, all of these Palm and PocketPC devices have compatibility issues with 3rd party software.

So here I am with my 4 year old BlackBerry - with the integrated keyboard and old chromatic screen - running off of the obsolete Mobitex pager network...and it does about 90% of what I want to do when I'm away from the office - mail and calendar. No it doesn't have a built in camera - no it doesn't pick my nose or wash my car - but it does exactly what it claims. The best part is, I feel safe leaving it around my daughter.

There's no winning in this game. Palm is dying. PocketPC is too complicated. RIM is obsolete. Symbian sucks.

I agree that the Berry is damn useful, but if you have a phone with gprs data service and bluetooth, your bluetooth handheld can route through that. Someday someone will make a palm os 5 color handheld with bluetooth, sdio, infrared, and headphones, and i will buy it.

Right, I forgot the other conditions: someone will also have to make a gprs phone that doesn't suck, and then some phone company will have to make a voice and data plan that doesn't suck.
Until it all comes together, I'm watching from a distance.

Palm is dying? You're kidding me, right? It's been close to 5 years since Windows CE was introduced. With the full force of one of the most powerful marketing and sales organizations in the world, it has still not managed to bring the PalmOS marketshare down below 70%. Palm got it right and keeps evolving its product to take advantage of new technology.

all of these Palm and PocketPC devices have compatibility issues with 3rd party software.

Compatibility issues? WTF? I've written Palm software that runs flawlessly on Palm OS 2.0 right up through 5.0, on a wide variety of devices. (I tell users up front that it doesn't work on 1.x, which was a design choice.)

If there are compatibility issues with Palm software it's because the authors of that software are ignoring Palm's own compatibility guidelines. It's a shame, yes, but don't blame Palm because third party developers can't read documentation that's freely available.

I don't think any handhelds will ever be for me. Sure, I've tinkered with them, and even found them convenient, but they suffer from two big problems:

1. The display is too small.

2. The input devices are too inconvenient/cumbersome.

Unfortunately, fixing either problem in a handheld would defeat the killer app of the handheld: portability. This is why I'm waiting for the device that uses a display that's directly connected to my optic nerve and uses neural-impulse-driven input. Am I right in thinking that this is the logical evolution of personal computing? And we think security is a big deal today. Heh, just wait until I can hack into your optic nerve!

If a display that's 240x320 (or 640x480 in the case of Sharp's newer clamshell) is too small for you, then perhaps you should consider getting a VGA-out CompactFlash card and some Video glasses.

2. The input devices are too inconvenient/cumbersome.

Sharp's Zaurus has a decent input method: thumboard. I can type faster on it with my thumbs than I can with Jot/Graffii. If you want to use a desktop-like interface, you can always SSH into a Zaurus with a desktop.

I agree mostly. I wish there was one single flash standard and everyone would use it. Life would be much easier that way. Its frustrating that my digital camera and my palm use different flash memory. I'm sure many out there are confronted with the same type of situation.

The thing I like about MS over compact flash, though, is its size. It is about half the size, and with all these tiny devices coming out, I think that is a real advantage. Plus, its easier to fit a bunch of the memory sticks in my cases than compact flash.

As far as functionality, they are pretty much equivalent now. The only real differences are available memory sizes (compact supports largers sizes currently), form factor, and supported devices. Speed may be another, I hear the MS works faster, but I don't know that for sure.

Hmm... I wonder if that extra $4 is a licencing fee to Sony? What makes proprietary memory that only works in one brand so compelling? Is it that it encourages one to have to buy more Sony products so they don't have to buy new memory?

And I doubt the $4 is the licensing fee. According to memorystick.org [memorystick.org], the licensing fees to develop a memory stick product are 500,000 Yen/year (about $4,000) with no running royalty.

All you Linux guys don't get mad at me for brining this up... I guess it is a common concern. But can I sync this on my mac?... I would be very interested in replacing my m125. So anyone have any idea if I could sync this on my mac? what good is accepting a standard such as bluetooth if you can't sync on all sorts of different platforms? I heard there is some third party software you can use to sync your clie... will it work with bluetooth on the mac? Anyone that has any insight into getting this working on platforms that don't include windows post a reply- I doubt i'm the only one who's curious.

the third part software for clie syncing is called "the missing sync" an you only need it for some of the older clie's, ive used a peg-sj30 with the hotsync software from palm.com, and isync (and ical)

For a databook/addressbook/variousMobileDB's it still works great and is supported by every OS on the planet. Right now I sync with Evolution and it works very well. Another bonus is the batteries last a long time. I know if I leave it for weeks on end it won't be dead when I go to use it.

I think most users buy these new(read:expensive) PDA's thinking of all the cool things they can do and then over time just end up doing the basics. There are definitely some really cool features on the new PDA's(wireless etc), but before you go blowing $300-$500 on the lastest and greatest consider if you really need those features and if a mini-notebook(more capabilities) or used Palm(just the basics) might serve you better.

I know this is somewhat OT, but how goes current integration of Palm and GPS? That is, I know you can buy an amazing little GPS tab [holux.com.tw] for a Palm that plugs into the CF slot, and that you can buy some map software [fugawi.com] that looks to have good European street info.

But do they work well together? If I use the CF slot for the GPS can I no longer add memory those maps will want so much?

Should I just hope to get the Garmin Palm device [garmin.com] (which is not out yet) before I travel this spring, and hope it lets me use third party maps?

And what about those GPS tabs? It looks like at least some of them need to be factory serviced in order to switch between WAAS [faa.gov] and Europe's experimental equivalent of EGNOS [pocketgps.co.uk].

The RIAA has announced that it demands that Sony change this screen image [palminfocenter.com] to more accurately reflect what MP3s represent to the music industry. That REP OFF must be changed to RIP OFF.

I'll only upgrade my IIIc when they come out with something like the SJ33 (preferably with virtual graffiti, but you can't have everything)...but which also incorportaes a cellphone. Or they'd have to convert the Kyocera 7125 to GSM...

But what I find strange is that ever since I had my IIIc I've been saying that the only reason I'd upgrade is for a cellphone/palmOS, highres screen, removable storage device. So when are those idiots in marketing going to allow R&D to make one!?

One could pair the new Sony TG50 with the Sony T68i [amazon.com] cell phone [free with rebates] with built in bluetooth. However, the limited factor here is T-Mobile doesn't offer a flat rate for internet service. Personally, I don't want to be constantly worried about going over my usage limit.

Or you can wait for the new Hitachi [infosync.no], but the size is pretty big and who knows how much the service plans would cost. If through Sprint and they have a similar rate as the Treo 300; very promising! As long as you can get over WinCE

There is also the Sidekick [amazon.com] which I almost bought. Thankfully I decided to swing by compusa first to take a gander at the size. The thing is a brick! What is really cool is that you get unlimited internet access for the first year and you can do some cool hip logging [hiplog.com] which also includes support for sending small pictures. Very inticing, but the product is just way to big, is grayscale and seems to have some serious bugs as a cell phone [doesn't ring!]

My plan was to wait and wait for this magical all in one device. However, I need a cell phone and I finally bit the bullet and got a Treo 300 [amazon.com] It lacks expandability so I could never use it as a mp3 player, but it will suffice until the next series of Treos are introduced. With the unlimited flat rate for internet access how could I go wrong? Not to mention you can use it as a wireless modem [notifymail.com]

I think the cell phone/pda market is definately going in the right direction and I hope by the end of the year, there will be quite a few products out there that I can label as an "ultimate pda".

One small note. The Palm Tungsten W will include many of these features, but in order to use it as a cell phone, you must plug in the headset. This is just retarded. Imagine getting a phone call and having to fish around to plug in your headset?

Lets just hope that the new Treo's are build on PalmOS 5.x and will include expansion [mp3!] Shortly there after, you should see my Treo on ebay for a good price.

Try writing on the thing when it's pressed against your ear. Difficult, no? If you have trouble with handsfree cables (no, I don't like them much either)I rather assume the W will work with a Bluetooth headset, a much neater option.

Anyone notice a messy convergence in the functionality of all these devices?

Nintendo has been pretty consistent about generating a portable device with one clear and strong purpose, and at that it has been extremely successful.

Alot of these products I see coming out try to do lots of things--in a mediocre way. Without a clearly defined market, these are pretty much "cool gadgets" for people with loose cash. I don't see people using one handheld device to do 20 different things.

Are these companies experimentally sticking things together in combinations just to see if they'll sell? What I would rather see is companies spending more on generating killer apps with strong and focused purposes. (comme the Blackberry)

When people buy cars with DVD players, they're don't hop in to them when they want to watch movies. And it's great that my Palm can play mp3s, but I'll stick to my 20gig iPod.

Alot of these products I see coming out try to do lots of things--in a mediocre way. Without a clearly defined market, these are pretty much "cool gadgets" for people with loose cash. I don't see people using one handheld device to do 20 different things.

Trust me, you're not the only one with this opinion. A Recent Wall Street Journal article touched on this very same thing. The article noted that what may work in Japan for phone sales and assorted (software or hardware) accessories, won't necessarly work in the rest of the world.

The problem is, these all in one gadgets tend to do everything POORLY, and for a lot of money. I just replaced my old Handspring Visor with a Palm Zire, because I didn't want to blow $300+ on a combo cell phone / handheld that'd I'd probably just end up losing 6 months down the road. The Zire only set me back $75 on Amazon after a rebate, and even though it offers nothing in the way of functionality over the old Handspring (apart from faster synchs - it's USB - and a rechargeable battery that lasts forever between charges), it does everything I need.

I do think there would be be a market for an inexpensive combo device that's a combination iPod, cell phone and organizer, though. It would be nice to cut down on the number of gadgets you have to carry around, and the organizer's display (and OS) would come in handy for manipulating playlists on the jukebox. Unfortunately, I don't think we're quite at the point where such a gadget could be offered for a reasonable price (under $300), but by this time next year, who knows.

If Apple were smart, such a gadget could be their next killer consumer product. Do they still own the Newton OS?

I've futzed around with a few clie's at fry's. I don't see how they're failing in the least bit trying to do multiple things. It does PDA things correctly, it stores address, phonebook and other organizational data, and it also plays MP3s well. It also has a gamepad attachment so you can play games with it. I honestly don't see the problem.

Convergence doesn't necessarily produce poor versions of each individual device, it just makes that a much more likely case, but with something like MP3s, simple games, and of course, organizational and real work, there's just enough CPU power and memory that any hand held can do these properly, the only thing it would lack would be storage space for MP3s.

I was thinking about googling for that just before I posted, but then I thought, no, even though the "Super" part hints an earlier, non-Super version existed, some/.ter will surely have the kindness of pointing that fact out to me.Personnally, I find that lack of unpredictablility disturbing.But, then, no I don't.

This new one looks much cheaper and piggier than the SJ30. What's with the cheap NON-REMOVABLE plastic cover that will inevitably break off during the first week? Sorry, but the SJ30 looks much better.

No matter how many variations they come out with, Palm OS 4 and Palm OS 5 still are pretty limited: you only get 16Mbytes of memory, a lot of application code runs in emulation, there are lots of places where things are essentially 16bit, and the window system is pretty primitive.

Palms are nice for scheduling and TODO lists. But for that, a $90 Zire is good enough, and it's also small and light. I wouldn't buy anything more high-end at this point, until Palm OS 6 comes out.

I beg your pardon mods, but thiscomment is not insightful. It is, in fact, uninformed and irrelevant. Sony has been one of the first companies out there to do something about digital rights management in an unintrusive way. The drm that comes with my net-md is completely transparent to me and, frankly, I cannot imagine how the hell someone can be inconvenienced by it. You, for philosophical or ethical reasons might be against Sony in the greater plane of things, but they have been CONSISTENTLY putting out EXCELLENT quality gadgets that work seamlessly with one another.

Sony are one of the few companies out there that make gadgets that people drool over AND are happy to own - the novelty does not wear off in 5 minutes. I feel they should be applauded for that.
Anyway, if you are so vocal about the DMCA go out and vote against the congressmen who voted for it, don't sit there writing half-arsed one liners on/.

"I beg your pardon mods, but thiscomment is not insightful. It is, in fact, uninformed and irrelevant. Sony has been one of the first companies out there to do something about digital rights management in an unintrusive way..."

As long as you use Sony's products. Face it, they're worse than Microsoft. The only difference is that Sony's not as visible in our world as MS is.

Sony makes sure that you play by their rules. I'll give you an example: What's the standard format for a memory card on a Digital Camera? Compact Flash. What type of memory cards do Sony Digital Cameras use? Memory stick.

You can accept Sony if you like, but they're about as proprietary as you can get. For digital rights, that's Not Good(tm).

"Sony makes sure that you play by their rules. I'll give you an example: What's the standard format for a memory card on a Digital Camera? Compact Flash. What type of memory cards do Sony Digital Cameras use? Memory stick."

Kind of reminds me of what happened too Sony's CD-Drive peripheral for the Super NES. If memory serves, they wanted to make it a Sony unit that just happened to play Nintendo cartridges. The deal fell through partly because Nintendo wasn't about to hand their brand name over to Sony. The battle of the egos resulted in no CD for the SNES and the Playstation.

I have no doubt about what you're saying. Sony's very agressive about keeping the competition out.

Do you mean unobtrusive DRM like in this review [cnet.com]? The NetMD walkman is upload only and it won't play MP3 files directly. The bundled software converts it to their OpenMG format which is copy protected AND you take a big hit in sound quality because you're converting from one lossy codec to another AND it slows down uploading unless you want to duplicate your music collection in OpenMG files. If you think that's annoying, that's only after their 1st generation of players flopped badly due to even more intrusive DRM. Try googling for a review of the Sony Music Clip.I'll admit that Sony has good design and their CRT televisions have good picture quality, but overall their build quality has gone downhill especially on their stuff not made in Japan. It's not crap, but it doesn't justify their higher prices compared to other consumer electronics makers either.

yesterday's technology? maybe. but they probably provide a cheaper, and more functional alternative to pocket pc's. i mean, if you just want something to keep your schedule on and take a few notes with, why bother paying for the pocket pc?

doesn't Palm still have quite the market share? i don't think pocket pc's are that popular

I think that part of the problem exists in the very reason you site to say that there is no problem. Palm devices are very functional. That's what they're really designed to be, and that's what they do very, very well. What this means is that my Visor Deluxe serves my "schedule and notes" needs perfectly. I can't envision ever feeling the need to "upgrade", at least until the thing mechanically dies. Palm devices have their market, but it isn't one that ever really requires upgrading to function well.

you got me . . . alright, i take the criticism. i admit i have no idea, and yes i'm just throwing my two cents in, "ignorant ramblings" as you call them. the fact is i'm just sitting here at school . . .

as far as the article's concern, true may have been about mp3 playback but this little subtopic . . . not so.

So? The SJ30 uses the same cradle connector as the new ones do, the same memory stick.. what's the problem? The SJ30 even has a li-ion battery that can be removed and replaced if need be. Far more supportable than Palm's rechargeables, if the battery needs changing.

I've had my SJ30 for several months now and I just love it. I don't mind at all that Sony is selling a better one now.. the more they sell, the better for PalmOS and all.

Welcome to the bleeding edge. Or would you rather that Sony just update their products every couple of years so that everyone who buys their products doesn't have to go through the pain of seeing it updated/more powerful/cheaper?

Except in Sony's case it isn't eveyr couple of years. Sony released somethign like 12 new Palm powered Clies last year. It's not even the end of February in 2003 and we already have 3 announced/released (NZ90, SJ33, TG50). There will be more.

Short of replacing MemoryStick with SD, whatever features you think the Sony units are lacking it will appear in the next model, in a matter of months if not weeks.

The only non working Sony item we have is one of the 19" tv/monitors that I got in non working form.

Now with as many products as Sony sells, you can ALWAYS find people with both good and bad experiences, but I personally have had excellent luck with their products. The only Sony items I don't buy are high-end hi-fi, just because the sonic quality is marginal (except for some of their higher end dvd players).

Sorry to hear that you've had problems, but if you've found alternatives that make you happy, then more power to ya.

Though I too have huge problem with propietary memory (I have an existing investment in compact flash cards), the quality of Sony's products leaves everyone else in the dust. I look forward to purchasing the P800 once it's available for a low enough price in the U.S. And anyways, the memory market is already so fragmented - CF, SD, MMC, Memory Stick - it's hard to fault only Sony.