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if enough people are angry enough it will never pass, if it does then it looks like we aint even a democracy

We are not a democracy at all, if we were this vote would never pass, but as a republic we elect people to represent us and can vote however they want (we just hope they will vote the same as the majority of who they represent).

We are not a democracy at all, if we were this vote would never pass, but as a republic we elect people to represent us and can vote however they want (we just hope they will vote the same as the majority of who they represent).

And once they are elected into office we always find they have thier own agenda.

This lovely little $700 Billion spending bill cannot go through the Senate First. The Senate is not allowed to generate spending bills. It has to go through the Representatives first.

Unless they attach it to another completely unrelated bill.

So the Senate will take a bill that is fantastic and everyone adores, riddle it with this $700 billion bill, and the House will have to approve it or risk looking like a bunch of cowards who are "pro-terrorism" or "anti-safety" or some other blasphemy.

Dirty politics will pass this bill, just like invading Iraq. Just like wiretapping our phones. Just like creating secret prisons. Just like torture.

This is getting ridiculous. Our government is a bunch of thieves and cowards.

Be careful, what you say. It might be (have been) fulfilled...

Originally Posted by tallefred

Ok. Let's take our guns while we still have them and go siege the White House.

Well, now comes the interesting part for you showing me, how you take guns and change the un-democratic government. Wait, i'll fetch my popcorn...

Originally Posted by losinglife

ha i just like how the bill went from 3 pages up to 450 pages last i heard. Wich means by now its well over 1k pages.

Hilarious all the stuff they are cramming in there to get it passed.

The same stuff has been done with European Constitution lately -- when they wanted to pass this document in national referendums -- it has about thousand(s) of pages, you literally have to study it for months, to understand it completely and it's obviously some lawyer trick to pass some very un-democratic changes. It didn't pass in French and Dutch national referendums, but it's gonna be back. They (those in power) always make this kind of bills pass. They will change the title, will add content (as OP suggested), will wait months, years, will advertise it and bribe for it, will ultimately kill or start a war to make it pass. The bottom line is, our democratic governments are an illusion. They are less democratic than a Russian one, i tell you. They are controlled by powerful corporations, bankers, lobbing groups and other scum. They give a shit about your opinion and as long as you believe, they do, you're their dupe.

Paragons of adoescent impetuousness

Whether the Senate could pass such a bill is a seemingly unresolved question of constitutional law. The relevant part of the constitution is Article I, §7, clause 1, which reads:

Originally Posted by The most thoughtlessly and dishonestly invoked men in history

All bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with amendments as on other Bills.

The Senate inteprets this to mean only that it cannot initiate legislation newly imposing or altering taxes and fees, whereas the House of Representatives inteprets it as forbidding the Senate from initiating appropriations bills as well. I tend to prefer the Senate's intepretation, but I am not a constitutional scholar. That the Senate passed the Paulson Plan in the form of an amendment does rather obviously seem like an attempt to avoid any arguments over matters of jurisdiction.

I see that the old Forumfall canards of wantonly vilifying politicians, demanding violent revolt and invoking democracy (and in a way the one about it being a republic, not a democracy) are out in force. I think that its all ill-informed and silly. I have yet to see anyone ever call for revolt with even a hint of sensibility and realism. As it stands, I cannot see why one would expect it to have consequences other than numerous fruitless deaths and the imposition of new, more repressive public security measures.

Prosperity is only an instrument to be used, not a deity to be worshipped.
~Calvin Coolidge