Bottom line - did it matter to you that the V is an American vehicle? I'm sure most agree it's nice that it is but did it influence your decision to buy? V owners tend to have some level of afluence - is buy American just a blue collar thing or what? And to be clear, that is in no way a shot at blue collar - on the contrary it's a recognition of blue collar loyalty and values.

But, did it matter to YOU?

ta206

02-11-06, 03:24 PM

Absolutely. I've never bought a foreign car. Hell, I've never bought anything that isn't made by GM.

SoCadillac

02-11-06, 03:25 PM

The CTS and CTS-V are more world-class cars than simply being just American. What is American anymore? What does it mean? We are more multi-national in our production than most countries. All that really matters is how well it is done. If America does it better then more power to America. America has made the divide between its blue collar and white collar; in Japan blue collar workers are revered and treated like white collar.

04CTSVFLA

02-11-06, 03:34 PM

No, and if you did your shallow and stupid.

heavymetals

02-11-06, 03:36 PM

I never heard any foreign make that has the "bark" that an American V8 has.
Or the aftermarket support.
Or the "sleeper" capability.

Having the Z06 convinced me that the V is a true "hot rod" and I had to have one (especially after I drove it!).

It wasn't blue collar workers who designed it, argued for it, and managed to get it made. Don't forget that part.

crowan

02-11-06, 03:37 PM

I'll stop buying American when I can get a smokin' V-8 pushrod beeotch of a torque monster motor, wrapped in beautiful sheetmetal, with go-cart handling, made somewhere else.

American muscle....accept no substitutes.

CR

Ziplicon Tuesday

02-11-06, 03:42 PM

04CTSVFLA - Dude, for one whose been offended over people speaking in hiphop terms in the forum you sure lay out a strong statement. First off, the question was did it matter - NOT was it the only reason, second if you don't realize the implicatons to the US economy perhaps consider the mirror to find one who is shallow and stupid.

roadracerx72

02-11-06, 03:47 PM

No, but the fact my whole family works at GM besides me did. American cars have been the #1 car in the family. But I bet if Dad worked at Ferrari, I'd be driving a 360 instead.

kjr39

02-11-06, 03:50 PM

I don't get the whole buying 'American' for cars... You don't here people complaining that their TV, DVD player, jeans, etc are not 'made in America.' So, why so much for cars?

FWIW, it did make a difference for me though. Why? Because my pop worked for GM and is a retiree. Meaning, I got GMS pricing on my V. Price for performance, the V could not be met.

Then again, someone want to define what American is? Ford makes the Fusion in Mexico, the Chevy 2500 has an Isuzu diesel engine in it, and lets not forget the Holden Monero, I mean, the Pontiac GTO.

kjr39

02-11-06, 03:54 PM

No, and if you did your shallow and stupid.

:tisk:

stkshkr

02-11-06, 03:55 PM

One "Foreign" car a BMW. All the rest made by American manufacturers, and now made with foreign parts. I do try to support American companies.

kjr39

02-11-06, 03:58 PM

That 'Foreign' car that you're talking about was made closer to where I live than the 'American' car that I bought.

There's a BMW plant about 40 miles from Charlotte, NC. Our Vs were built in Lansing, MI.

Ziplicon Tuesday

02-11-06, 03:58 PM

Don't hold me to the percentages, but for purposes of discussion, I believe American would mean 70% domestic content.....couple that with assembled by American labor in America with the bulk of the revenue going to an American company. I'm all for the global economy as well - but folks complain about lost US jobs and such - do they dial that concern into their own actions?

wooderson

02-11-06, 04:02 PM

I bought three GM cars in the past two years because they had the best deals not because I refuse to buy foreign cars. I have owned three foreign cars, German and Japanese. Unfortunately my purchases didn't help GM's bottom line.

Ziplicon Tuesday

02-11-06, 04:04 PM

Kjr39 - Agreed transplants are a good thing - I was actually at that BMW plant during construction - you know the CD plant close by in King's Mountain? I was a lead designer of it when it was the first CD plant in the US.

kjr39

02-11-06, 04:08 PM

Why stop with revenue? Why not extend to the nationality of the major bond and shareholders? Aren't they ultimately the ones that have a vested interest in the performance of the company? (Also, what about where the car is designed?)

As well, given your description of American, the Ford Fusion isn't American. However, the Mazda 6 may be (rolls off the line next to the Mustang in Flat Rock.)

Dennisscars

02-11-06, 04:12 PM

I bought it because it gave me that "bird that ate the canary" grin the first time I drove it. If I had enough coin to test drive a M5 well, that'd be another thread.

Ziplicon Tuesday

02-11-06, 04:16 PM

Yes, actually - the Fusion being assembled in Mexico is spefically to take advantage of cheaper labor and all the rest - that is the heart of the question...does that matter anymore? A V built in the US benefits (IMO) the US more than a Fusion built in Mexico or, for that matter a BMW in NC. Ain't saying the NC plant isn't a good thing, but you can't ignore that the vast majority of BMW's are not made in the US.

kjaj97

02-11-06, 04:22 PM

It was important to me to buy American. I may be shallow and stupid (my wife thinks so sometimes) and I'm pretty familiar with all the geopolitical -macroeconomic- global manufacturing - mumbo jumbo, but its like rooting for the home team, or buying cookies from the neighborhood girl scout - it just feels right.

Not right enough that I didn't get a Moto Guzzi and Porsche, but hey - nobody's perfect.

Ziplicon Tuesday

02-11-06, 04:24 PM

Kjaj97 - ya know, that's a good point and really sumed it up - home team, feels right - yup THAT'S what I'm talking about. Well said.

Geno

02-11-06, 04:25 PM

The short answer is, "It matters to me". It's an extention of being proud to be an American.:cool2:

...and thanks again to:

GM for the V line and Z06
Ford for the Ford GT
Chrysler for the Viper and Hemi

Florian

02-11-06, 04:32 PM

Sure did...I deal with the Big 3 and if you have a foreign car...may as well call a tow truck before you hit the lot...you arent gettin out of there with all your tires intact. Plus, the money stays here in the states.

F

kjr39

02-11-06, 04:40 PM

Sure did...I deal with the Big 3 and if you have a foreign car...may as well call a tow truck before you hit the lot...you arent gettin out of there with all your tires intact. Plus, the money stays here in the states.

That must be those lovely union guys that you get to deal with...

Ziplicon Tuesday

02-11-06, 04:42 PM

Great to see some of you guys out there with the same perspective - When people come over to see the V, as they often do, the last thing I say is "Best of all, it's American."

homer403

02-11-06, 04:42 PM

I my case, I was torn bewteen a M3 and Boxster... I choose the V because it was the best of the 3.

Florian

02-11-06, 04:47 PM

That must be those lovely union guys that you get to deal with...

Yup....not much fun waiting for a 'pipefitter' guy or "electrical' guy or whomever, when I need to get something done right away. There is no right away when things need fixed. Its a shame.

F

rand49er

02-11-06, 04:52 PM

No, and if you did your shallow and stupid.Coming from someone who can't even spell.

Yes, it mattered a great deal to me. However, in this global economy, the term "built here" cannot be taken as either/or. The V, for instance, is certainly assembled here, but, for example, the wheels are made in Italy. (And, I'm sure there are many more examples.) Again, you're going to get a mixture of built here and of built there when it comes to components. Where it matters to me is when as a businessman trying to sell to domestic manufacturers versus foreign manufacturers. Walk into a Japanese plant here in the US and look at the equipment: it's all Japanese ... made in Japan and serviced by Japanese. These plants are even setup in Japan before they're shipped to the US and plunked down in some corn field in the midwest. And all their parts are made either in Japan and shipped here or made by another Japanese company here in the US from parts that came from Japan. The only thing you can sell to a Japanese transplant facility is toilet paper! I have precious little experience with the German transplants, but I'd bet dollars to donuts it's the same. And, look at Daimler-Chrysler engine plants: a lot of German machining equipment and more coming to replace the American equipment. In all fairness to Daimler-Chrysler, at least they will talk to you when it comes to buying equipment.

So, yes, it mattered immensely to me. My livelihood both directly and indirectly depends upon the health of the domestic auto industry. Maybe, if my livelihood just depended on Mickey Mouse, it wouldn't be such a big deal.

I'm all for a global economy and competition. GM, Ford, and Chrysler are all better off for it. But, don't tell me assembled here is the same as built here. Yeah, like I said, I know it's not absolutely clear cut, but I still will NOT buy Japanese, and I'll go kicking and screaming before I'll buy European. :rant2:

Ziplicon Tuesday

02-11-06, 04:59 PM

Rand49er...That's the kind of information people need to know about. They tend to buy the whole "what's the difference" argument without knowing there really is a difference and it it affects many Americans.

Today, people shop Wallmart because it's a good deal, tomorrow they'll shop there because they can't afford to go anywhere else....it's like that.

kjr39

02-11-06, 05:02 PM

Yes, actually - the Fusion being assembled in Mexico is spefically to take advantage of cheaper labor and all the rest - that is the heart of the question...does that matter anymore? A V built in the US benefits (IMO) the US more than a Fusion built in Mexico or, for that matter a BMW in NC. Ain't saying the NC plant isn't a good thing, but you can't ignore that the vast majority of BMW's are not made in the US.

Not if the cost of building the car in the US makes it unprofitable to produce. Continuing to hold to a business model that is unprofitable while your competitor is making billlions per quarter is a great way to be an example for a MBA class on how not to run a business. (FWIW, you really can't get into this discussion without talking about labor and we just don't want to do that.)

I will say though that:

If I'm GM I'm planning for a Democrat in office after GW, looking to sell my only profitable division (GMAC), and lobby like hell that when I do go Ch. 11, the government will pick up the pensions of my retirees.

or

If I'm a government official in MI, I'm doing everything I can to ensure that the Asian auto companies are interested in moving into Detroit & SE Michigan area to soak up the excess capacity from the American auto companies decline.

(FWIW, The volumes of the V and Ms (etc) is a blip on the radar of these companies.)

Anyway, I'm going driving...

Ziplicon Tuesday

02-11-06, 05:08 PM

So, ah, if China is a better business model - we should close more US plants and move there? It's a short sighted business model if it means letting one's own economy collapse.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion...enjoyed your thoughts. Wish I could go driving right now, but the first of 12" of snow is already on the ground.

SoCadillac

02-11-06, 05:19 PM

Let's throw a few wrenches into the works: box end, open end, combination or the new ratcheting--it doesn't matter. Do we purchase American because it is better or because it is American? If you purchase an American product because of patriotic or nationalist reasons then are you not supporting inferior products (should the product indeed be inferior)? We build the finest military and high-end industrial (usually only accessible by the military) in the world, but these days it seems very little spinoff benefits are trickled-down, as they used to be, to other forms of US manufacturing. If an automobile is the best in its class, no matter what country it is built-in, as a result of a better understanding, implementation and execution of math and science and the determination to build better, then I have absolutely no reason to condemn the other country, should they not be American, for doing better. I see no reason to support failing products for doing poorer; if you do condemn the country for doing better, because they earned it, are you not further stifling what Americans need to accomplish to do better?

CVP33

02-11-06, 05:29 PM

It feels good to buy "American Made". But let's not kid ourselves too much here fella's. GM, Ford, Daimler Chrysler are all huge global companies building, financing and selling in multiple countries worldwide. I'm sure that the impact of their failing would be felt in the states but would also be felt in Europe, Asia and even New Zealand and Australia. There use to be a fact sheet for these companies that boggled the mind where it showed the content for cars that you'd never expect. Look at Ford which owns Jaguar and Volvo. Or GM which owns stakes or outright owns Diahatsu, Isuzu, Subaru, Opel, Holden and more. When your GTO is made in Australia, your PT Cruiser is built in Mexico, the Camaro was built in Canada and your Camry, Accord, BMW and more are built in the USA who's helping who?

Ziplicon Tuesday

02-11-06, 05:39 PM

See Rand49r's reply above - all you guys say is true - but there are many less direct impacts and hidden methodologies that make a big difference - you can't kid yourselves that there's not a greater positive impact on buying American.
But honesty, I agree sales should be achieved based on merit, quality etc. I also agree regarding the positive impacts of competition - but when things are close should the "hometeam" not be a consideration? You want to bet that it's a great part of the decsion process that foreigners consider? Europeans are only now opening up to Asian vehicles. At some point, you've got to support the home industry - not blind support - but at least give it some value.

Jschmank

02-11-06, 05:47 PM

It was actually great to be buying an American brand and especially Cadillac. Can't use your GM card credits to buy a BMW! There is no perfect vehicle out there, but from my perspective, this one has much of the best that the US has to offer. No one has built V-8's like the good old US of A, and they have been making them for a long time.

2004ctsv

02-11-06, 05:52 PM

Didn't mean squat to me.

The sound of the engine. The feel of acceleration. The edgy look. The uniqueness. That's what was importatnt to me.

I work for a company that buys raw materials internationally, manufactures internationally and sells products internationally. I compete on a global scale.

I don't think that people buying the products my company makes hold it against us because they are American made. They buy them because of high quality and good price.

BTW - we pay union wages and have a highly compensated technical staff.

T

SoCadillac

02-11-06, 05:55 PM

My wife and I came back into the American automobile showroom--specifically Cadillac--because of the CTS. We wanted to support America, but only because they had earned it; earned in the sense that we do not have to and do not want to make excuses for our CTS to others for being an American automobile. Our last go around with an American automobile (and I have owned over thirty automobiles) was, lets just say, less than optimal: a lot of money spent for what was an inferior automobile, we liked it, but in the end we were left with a sour experience, little to no resale value, and never wishing to purchase another model of that particular brand. We both love the CTS, but are concerned about how GM does or does not handle the differential issue that keeps cropping up (currently and thankfully, not on our CTS).

wildwhl

02-11-06, 06:00 PM

:yup:

Ziplicon Tuesday

02-11-06, 06:09 PM

Yup SOCAD - can't disagree with a word of that - in fact agree fully....but you answered the question by saying "We wanted to support America..." That's what I wanted to know - do we all still at least have the desire to support American industry - may not always do so, but is it still our preference?

2004ctsv says it doesn't mean squat - ok, there's the other side of the answer. BTW - Hope those high wages stick around for ya.....sincerely hope so.....because it means more than squat to me.

10secvette

02-11-06, 06:42 PM

No, and if you did your shallow and stupid.

It's obvious who's "shallow and stupid".

To answer the question....... you guys should take a look at the % of non usa made components in our "american cars".

CIWS

02-11-06, 06:51 PM

Short answer - No. I buy the product(s) that I feel are worthy of my money. I've owned GM, Triumph, Honda, Toyota, Ford/Mazda, Mercury, Nissan, and now back to GM. If the American ownership is important, then it's a good thing we got a CTS now as they're (Insideline) reporting some of the future (2007+) will be built in China. Looks as though GM will have to give into some of that cheap labor to stay competative.

Florian

02-11-06, 07:18 PM

It's obvious who's "shallow and stupid".

To answer the question....... you guys should take a look at the % of non usa made components in our "american cars".

10sec,
Youre right about the amount of non-US content in the American auto. The sad fact is that there is even less, if any, in the Japanese/German etc that are assembled in this country. The bottom line is that regardless of the content, the profits go to support the American economy in the form of dividends/salaries/pensions (ironically, the things that are supposedly killing the US automaker). That said, Ill choose American because I feed the hand that gives. My living is based on the big 3 (2 now???) and I need them as much as they need me.

F

dqw1

02-11-06, 07:33 PM

I bought the CTS and then the V because they were badass looking cars and were different with performance to back them up. Didn't matter to me when it really came down to it but I did have some doubts about american quality. I didn't have any connection to GM that others did so buying american wasn't a priority. My last two cars were Japanese so I knew I was taking a chance buying american but I'm just glad I got my dream car. I could care less who made it and in this case it was GM.
I know what the auto industry means to Alabama, so if you buy Mercedes, Honda, Toyota etc, aren't you supporting americans also?
What the US auto industry brought on themselves is their fault alone.

ace996

02-11-06, 07:50 PM

It was a bonus that the V was an American car, but I should say that it was really the American LS6 that did it. I was really looking to get the Australian GTO, as I never really put that much faith in the American auto industry. Other than a Jeep Wrangler, I never bought an American car new. The Jeep was phenomenal...never had a problem, never spent a day in service...I guess it really does matter how long a platform is around, as that vehicle was originally designed some 60yrs ago...they had some time to figure out what worked and what didn't.
I can't say the same for the V. As the second American car purchased new, it has put such a bad taste in my mouth (38 days in service in 8 months) that I have vowed to never buy another GM car...except perhaps a Corvette, someday I'll have that LS6 again!
Several foreign cars/trucks with so very few problems, and none as serious as the V's driveline engineering jokes, spoiled me. It's a shame that a car as significant as the V needed a little more time in the oven. At least they used the LS6, the best component of the vehicle that they had time to "get right".
After this vehicle, "American Car" are dirty words in my house. Such a shame....
-ace

erp2863

02-11-06, 07:52 PM

The V is the 5th car I've ever owned (I'm only 26) and all have been American. The overriding factor in most of my decisions is value. I got a lot of car for the money I paid, and have only had a couple of minor issues. I honestly wouldn't mind buying a Japanese (how about the upcoming Lexus GS hybrid V8?) or a German car. But the ones that do interest me cost a lot more than what I'm willing to pay.

As far as nationalism goes, I truely wish more Americans would think more carefully about their financial decisions. I personally don't like shopping at Walmart because 95% of the goods sold in Walmart come from China. I do look at the "Made In" tag on almost everything I buy. When I have a choice, I choose not to support China or Korea. Goods that come into this country should be made by workers that have labor and safety laws up to our own standards. Also, both countries are chronic violators of intelectual property rights of American companies.

Davidstan

02-11-06, 08:48 PM

My 2 cents. I buy for value first and if the decision comes down to American/Jap/German evenly i go american. I have owned Jap/Euro cars in the past and am not impresed overly w/ dollar cost to quality ratio from the offshore cars today. Its that simple.

James Baldwin

02-11-06, 09:02 PM

I purchased my V on Dec. 23rd and the dealer has already had it twice for a total of 3 weeks (series of electrical glitches and poor assembly quality). My wife has had a 2001, and now has a 2006, Lexus GS300 and neither has seen the service bay - even once.

If Lexus offered the performance of a V, you can bet I would be in a foreign car.

As for being "Made in America", I have a different view. My entire job is to ensure Asian social accountabilty and quality control standards are there to protect US companies. I am one of those people some hate because I work in a tough field that can be loved or hated. Large retailers/brands have to make a decision. Produce products in other countries or lose market share to competition that is more competitive. I have saved US mfg jobs by producing components in Asia to allow for US production lines to remain competitive. I have also seen companies go out of business because they refuse to go overseas for product sourcing (especially with labor unions commanding top $$$ for assembly line personnel). In fact, I am meeting with one of the top privately held companies in the US who has seen their sales drop over 35% in the last 4 years - due to overseas competition. What do they do? Stick by their "made in the USA" standards or find a way to mfg. some or all of their products to gain back marketshare? By comparison, if they continue to lose market share, it stands to reason that a vast number of their 60,000+ employees lose their jobs (in most cases, it is the lesser of two evils). It is a tough decision for any company.

And as for the consumer... If we are faced with buying the same product at $40 vs. $65, what would be your decision? This is why WalMart, Target, etc... are successful... they understand that only 2% of the country feels the strongly enough to go for the more expensive USA made product.

I certainly respect everyone's preference to buy American and when comparing apples to apples, I do the same.

DrivingAmericanNow

02-11-06, 09:09 PM

OK, OK, given my stage name, you'd have to bet my answer is "hell, yes.... I wanted to buy American".

I'd been driving German for ages; always telling people when a US manufacturer makes a high-end, four-door sedan with a manual shift and enough power to crush an M-series........... I'll buy it. When the V arrived, all that running of my mouth kind of obligated me to buy a one.

Dad7159

02-11-06, 10:05 PM

Although I've been a Cadillac fan for years, I never have owned any until I bought my 2005 STS. This car changed my mind about owning an american car. I bought my Cadillac's because they compete. I love em all.

GT04CTS-V

02-11-06, 10:21 PM

I always try to support American companies. In fact, I have owned Ford, Pontiac, Chrysler, Chevrolet, and Cadillac - too many cars to count, it's an addiction. But lately, I've been pissed off with the quality and corporate support of several American companys. I just unloaded a 2002 Chevrolet trailblazer. It had been back at the dealer over 25 times for warranty work. It had a vibration / noise since it was new - I was told that it was normal. At 52,000 miles, I gave up and traded it in for a Honda. I've had a Honda for the past 3 years, only back for warranty service one time. The service light came on, and the dealer replaced the CVT transmission. I was surprised, never thought anything was wrong with the tranny. The car had 48,800 miles on it, Honda still covered it under warranty even though the warranty was up at 36,000. Since I had a good experience with Honda, I bought another.

The Honda's are mine and my wife's daily beaters. The V is "special occasion" car only. Now with GM's lack of concern over the crappy differential we seem to be stuck with, the wheel hop, etc. My loyality is starting to dwindle even more. The V is a real hot rod, handle's like it's on rails, sounds great, looks great, rear sucks. I don't believe that we should have to shell out money for an aftermarket diff to make up for the lack of engineering thought GM put into the Get-Rag diff. GM should make it right. Do the right thing - Think GM, Think - repeat customers mean anything to you????? Treat your current customers right !

Bottom line, build a great car, engineer it properly, provide excellent customer service, and people will buy it.

If it wasn't for the quality service that James and Lindsay Cadillac provide, I would unload the V as well.

Flame away . . . . . .

GT

Tystik

02-11-06, 10:25 PM

Nah. But love to see people's face when I say I sold my 2004 G35 and bought a Caddy. They usually have know idea.

CVP33

02-11-06, 10:25 PM

The V is a real hot rod, handle's like it's on rails, sounds great, looks great, rear sucks. I don't believe that we should have to shell out money for an aftermarket diff to make up for the lack of engineering thought GM put into the Get-Rag diff. GM should make it right.

Bottom line, build a great car, engineer it properly, provide excellent customer service, and people will buy it.

If it wasn't for the quality service that James and Lindsay Cadillac provide, I would unload the V as well.

Flame away . . . . . .

GT

I'm not sure who would argue with your statement. Facts are very hard to refute.

midwestern Values

02-11-06, 10:38 PM

It sure made a differance to me. After seeing alot of jobs in America move oversees I became increasingly concerned about this, and felt hypocritical driving around in my Jaguar. I had been edging this way ever since September 11th. In my view this goes beyond economics.

Or perhaps not, when the terrorists targeted the World Trade Center in lower Manhattan near Wall Street they were taking dead aim at the American Economy. So, to me the economy is certainly one of the fronts in the war on terror, all to often a forgotten component of the war, if you ask me.

The beauty is that one a value for money basis the V competes very well with the foreign alternatives. So I don't feel that I compromised in any way. I wish that the differential wasn't such a problem, but this I feel is a management issue, not a lack of American engineering ability or poor American workmanship.

V-SATX

02-11-06, 10:47 PM

It has always mattered to me. I have been with Cadillac for over 15 years. I grew up in Detroit. Am I being shallow and stupid? Let that statement speak for itself. What really influences our GNP stats? Certainly not steel production. Also, how much of our future retirement dollars invested during our peak working years are tied to our economy (America). For now and in the near future I will support our home American team.
JMHO

Nissan, honda, bmw, porsche etc. Will never be cruise cars, will never be muscle cars, not anytime soon. I did own a couple of german cars, their repair reputation was no better but were more expensive to fix. In reality, the domestic stuff is cheaper.. I was looking for a small SUV. After looking at the honda Pilot, CRX and Hylander I bought an Equinox. It hasnt been to the dealer yet. It was thousands cheaper.

Even with the differential issues, the V is still the biggest performance bang for the buck.

CVP33

02-11-06, 11:30 PM

If you think by buying an American car you're helping to fight the war on terror than you are more naive than anyone I've ever met. There are much better ways to fight that battle. Firstly, start by buying an economical car and help reduce our reliance on imported oil. Secondly, reach out to someone who is of the Muslim faith. It's hard to hate someone you know. It's sad when people justify the purchase of a car by fighting terrorism. Geesuz Christmas. And we wonder why the rest of the world thinks we're all idiots.

As for me. There are no terrorists. There is no impending doom. Looking for something to get excited about? Read about the deficit and then do the math regarding baby boomers retiring vs. people paying into Social Security. If that doesn't scare you, think about this. Why do you think the Social Securtiy commission starting sending out benefit statements about 4 years ago? It's to give you a false sense of security. If you actually believe that Social Security will be there when the 30-something's retire than I suggest that you go buy an American car and continue fighting terrorism. :histeric:

M5eatr

02-11-06, 11:50 PM

Will someone please cue America the Beautiful for me?

I am first generation Italian, and I was almost born in Italy. I have been back and traveled Europe, and I can honestly say that I love to visit, but I would never leave America. I have owned mostly American cars, as well as my family. My first car was an Olds 442 ’87. If it wasn’t for my stupid mistake of buying the R1200C, my wife wouldn’t have gotten the X5 to replace the GMC Jimmy. I wound up with the Bimmer because the HD dealer messed up and sold my two tone Fatboy that I ordered and was pissed so I made a hasty decision. The bike and the truck have had their share of problems. My brother in laws all have Benz’s that have spent enough time at the shop, more than my V or other American car that I have had. My wife’s Acura needed its transmission replaced. I have been blessed with good fortune and this country has given me and my family this opportunity. Most do not know the outside world to appreciate what we have here. So yes, I will Buy American whenever I can. All our products compete with foreign counterparts, in every category. The quality of foreign products is a byproduct of marketing, nothing else. Besides, you are paying a premium for it anyway, which most don’t realize.

Besides, you guys want to know what my relatives want me to bring them to Italy? Made in America Levis, because over there they cost more than any other jean. Also, they lust for Vette’s more than the Fiats with the galloping horse. Look at the resale values of HD's to any other brand. I don't understand why there is this relationship in cars that domestic means inferior. As much as many have bitched and acted like pussies about their problems with their V's, I can say that my V has 16k driven hard and no diff problems, the hop has become a non issue with new tires and am basically happy with the car. Besides being in a accident, when a couple recalls were done, the car has never been in for service.

CVP33

02-11-06, 11:56 PM

. As much as many have bitched and acted like pussies about their problems with their V's, I can say that my V has 16k driven hard and no diff problems, the hop has become a non issue with new tires and am basically happy with the car. Besides being in a accident, when a couple recalls were done, the car has never been in for service.

Yeah, you bunch of pussies. :alchi: And to think I tried to formulate an intelligent argument. Damn, I just wasted my time as usual.

Ziplicon Tuesday

02-12-06, 12:22 AM

Personally, I think those guys have a more refreshing valid opinion than claiming there's no terrorists etc, and trying to switch to a social security debate....why because some of us may feel a sense of loyalty and seek to find it in any small way we can? Please, spare the politics, instead of insulting us how about reaching out to your fellow Americans? And you speak of being naive?

CVP33

02-12-06, 12:31 AM

Personally, I think those guys have a more refreshing valid opinion than claiming there's no terrorists etc, and trying to switch to a social security debate....why because some of us may feel a sense of loyalty and seek to find it in any small way we can? Please, spare the politics, instead of insulting us how about reaching out to your fellow Americans? And you speak of being naive?

There are definitely terrorist. I just don't think that buying a vehicle that gets 15mpg defeats them. Nice try though. As for Social Security, if you're not nervous, you're not paying attention. Don't let Bush's war avert your attention. The war will end and then you'll wake up. I'm just trying to wake you up now. What threat does Iraq represent to YOU today? I rest my case.

M5eatr

02-12-06, 12:34 AM

CVP,

I hope that you weren’t directing this post at me. I didn’t mention anything about terrorism, or the social security system or the economy. I just mentioned that it does matter to me to buy American. I have traveled and seen other countries; I wouldn’t want to live there. With all our problems, it is still the best country to live in bar none. Period. We are the only country besides Switzerland that has to guard its borders to prevent illegal immigration; most others guard their borders to keep their citizens in. If you are so inclined to argue politics, please be intelligent enough to read carefully and not twist my words into something they are not.

About my statement about people being pussies from all the bitching they do, I stand behind that. Anyone who says that the V is undriveable because of the hop is trying to do burnouts every chance they get, wouldn’t you agree? Only a moron drives like that. Since changing the tires, the hop is a non issue. I have maxed the speed, do occasional juvenile burnouts, raced from a roll, from a standstill, take my kid and wife around and use it as a daily driver. Zero problems. That has been my experience as of yet. What else could I expect from a car?

M5eatr

02-12-06, 12:38 AM

There are definitely terrorist. I just don't think that buying a vehicle that gets 15mpg defeats them. Nice try though. As for Social Security, if you're not nervous, you're not paying attention. Don't let Bush's war avert your attention. The war will end and then you'll wake up. I'm just trying to wake you up now. What threat does Iraq represent to YOU today? I rest my case.

Just about the same threat that a cartoon can send a bunch of morons into an irrational violent frenzy.

CVP33

02-12-06, 12:39 AM

CVP,

I hope that you weren’t directing this post at me. I didn’t mention anything about terrorism, or the social security system or the economy. I just mentioned that it does matter to me to buy American. I have traveled and seen other countries; I wouldn’t want to live there. With all our problems, it is still the best country to live in bar none. Period. We are the only country besides Switzerland that has to guard its borders to prevent illegal immigration; most others guard their borders to keep their citizens in. If you are so inclined to argue politics, please be intelligent enough to read carefully and not twist my words into something they are not.

About my statement about people being pussies from all the bitching they do, I stand behind that. Anyone who says that the V is undriveable because of the hop is trying to do burnouts every chance they get, wouldn’t you agree? Only a moron drives like that. Since changing the tires, the hop is a non issue. I have maxed the speed, do occasional juvenile burnouts, raced from a roll, from a standstill, take my kid and wife around and use it as a daily driver. Zero problems. That has been my experience as of yet. What else could I expect from a car?

Terrorism and Social Security not directed at you. "*****" comment was a quote from you. Name calling solves nothing. I bitched about my experience because it was MY EXPERIENCE. My hope is that no other V owner has to go through what I have. Unfortunately MANY have. Bitching about it does not make them "pussies".

CVP33

02-12-06, 12:40 AM

Just about the same threat that a cartoon can send a bunch of morons into an irrational violent frenzy.

Any idea how many people Catholics have killed in the name of Jesus? Are you familiar with the crusades? Those that don't know their history are doomed to repeat it.

CVP33

02-12-06, 12:45 AM

As much as many have bitched and acted like pussies about their problems with their V's, I can say that my V has 16k driven hard and no diff problems, the hop has become a non issue with new tires and am basically happy with the car. Besides being in a accident, when a couple recalls were done, the car has never been in for service.

Sorry, I didn't mean to direct that comment to you. I am just sick of all the postings about the wheelhop. There are others here if I think had would probably be better off with a skirt though.

I am very familiar with the Crusades, I studied it in high school and college. Still don't understand your point though. Are you implying that I want to start a crusade because of religion? Religion has nithing to do with it for me. When a bunch of terrorists hide behind the guise of religion to further hate against others, that is where I say let's go get them. They attacked us many times. The trade center was attacked twice. The Cole, Somalia, the hostages. The list goes on. They hate us because we are not their religion and that anyone who doesn't believe in Islam is an enemy of Islam. That is no different than saying the Easter bunny told me to kill my family.

The president of Iran says that there was no such thing as the Holocast, that Israel should be destroyed along with the US and GB. Sure, give the guy nukes. They pose no threat to you NOW.......come on dude, give up the partisan politics and come together to fight the real threats, not some threat that a fat, drunken, lying cheat from Massachusetts would want you to believe. Although there are many in politics that you can just change the state and would apply regardless of party.

M5eatr

02-12-06, 12:58 AM

That's pretty funny there King.....but maybe you should be queen pu$$y, as big pu$$y is Vinny Pastore and queen just fits better.

CVP33

02-12-06, 01:06 AM

Sorry, I didn't mean to direct that comment to you. I am just sick of all the postings about the wheelhop. There are others here if I think had would probably be better off with a skirt though.

I am very familiar with the Crusades, I studied it in high school and college. Still don't understand your point though. Are you implying that I want to start a crusade because of religion? Religion has nithing to do with it for me. When a bunch of terrorists hide behind the guise of religion to further hate against others, that is where I say let's go get them. They attacked us many times. The trade center was attacked twice. The Cole, Somalia, the hostages. The list goes on. They hate us because we are not their religion and that anyone who doesn't believe in Islam is an enemy of Islam. That is no different than saying the Easter bunny told me to kill my family.

The president of Iran wants says that there was no such thing as the Holocast, that Israel should be destryed along with the US and GB. Sure, give the guy nukes. They pose no threat to you NOW.......come on dude, give up the partisan politics and come together to fight the real threats, not some threat that a fat, drunken, lying cheat from Massachusetts would want you to believe. Although there are many in politics that you can just change the state and would apply regardless of party.

Ok, now we can talk. The leadership in Iran is scared to death of a free Iraq. This freedom shit is contagious and many in the middle east don't want that. Most of all our ally Saudia Arabia. (don't get me started on that)

My comment regarding the crusades was used to properly frame religous zealots of ANY persuasion. Catholics killed muslims in the name of Jesus. Now Muslims are pissed because the dutch defamed Allah. Terrorists are defined less by what they do and more by whom they attack or kill. Case in point: Accidently bomb a village and kill dozens of innocent civilians while you're hunting Al Qaeda? In the US your just fighting the war on terror. But in Iraq YOU are the terrorist. Perspective is easier when you don't have relatives or loved ones being killed daily by one side or the other. Be glad you have the luxury of objectivity.

homer403

02-12-06, 01:14 AM

This thread is soooooooooo far off topic... CLOSED IT :thepan:

M5eatr

02-12-06, 01:21 AM

Ok, now we can talk. The leadership in Iran is scared to death of a free Iraq. This freedom shit is contagious and many in the middle east don't want that. Most of all our ally Saudia Arabia. (don't get me started on that)

My comment regarding the crusades was used to properly frame religous zealots of ANY persuasion. Catholics killed muslims in the name of Jesus. Now Muslims are pissed because the dutch defamed Allah. Terrorists are defined less by what they do and more by whom they attack or kill. Case in point: Accidently bomb a village and kill dozens of innocent civilians while you're hunting Al Qaeda? In the US your just fighting the war on terror. But in Iraq YOU are the terrorist. Perspective is easier when you don't have relatives or loved ones being killed daily by one side or the other. Be glad you have the luxury of objectivity.

Still don't understand your point. So because they are afraid of freedom, they want to attack the country that is the epitome of freedom? I could care less what they do there, really I could. It's when they are threatening us directly that we should take notice. When will you say it's enough, when they drop a nuke on us?

Perspective works both ways. We are fighting a PC war which for all intents and purposes can't be won for people like you who feel sorry that we don't understand them and as such we should be more tolerant. It's all BS, plain and simple. The present war is being fought with as little collateral damage as possible. You remember WWII. Who won and who rebuilt the countries. Germany and Japan were pounded into submission. Talk about collateral damage. Look at those countries now. War is ugly and should only be used as a last resort. We are there, if not already too late.

heavymetals

02-12-06, 01:25 AM

This thread is soooooooooo far off topic... CLOSED IT :thepan:

Got my vote, boot it to the lounge.

CVP33

02-12-06, 01:32 AM

Still don't understand your point. So because they are afraid of freedom, they want to attack the country that is the epitome of freedom? I could care less what they do there, really I could. It's when they are threatening us directly that we should take notice. When will you say it's enough, when they drop a nuke on us?

Perspective works both ways. We are fighting a PC war which for all intents and purposes can't be won for people like you who feel sorry that we don't understand them and as such we should be more tolerant. It's all BS, plain and simple. The present war is being fought with as little collateral damage as possible. You remember WWII. Who won and who rebuilt the countries. Germany and Japan were pounded into submission. Talk about collateral damage. Look at those countries now. War is ugly and should only be used as a last resort. We are there, if not already too late.

You brought up Iran. I'm trying to help you understand why a country would make such imflamatory statements. We are the infidels. We frankly don't count because we are not muslim. Bombing a country or group of people will not make them more tolerant. Your WWII argument is spot on, so no issues there. BTW - Japan is now winning the economic war.

As to our other forum members who can't follow the string. This disolved when a forum member proclaimed that buying an American car is his way of fighting terrorism.

(edited for spelling)

erp2863

02-12-06, 01:33 AM

Ok, now we can talk. The leadership in Iran is scared to death of a free Iraq. This freedom shit is contagious and many in the middle east don't want that. Most of all our ally Saudia Arabia. (don't get me started on that)

Wow, you almost sound like a libby that understands the real reason we are in Iraq, whether you know it or not. If you're into books, give "America's Secret War" by Gearge Friedman a try. A fairly bi-partison read on why we are there with a good history of how al-queda got to where it is today. Don't worry, he gives GW his fair share of blame on some of things going wrong.

And those darn Crusades, what was that, a 1000 years ago? I think the world has changed a bit since chainmale (sp) went out of fashion. Of course, if the Muslim world can't control its radical members, there's going to be a new Crusade before long. There are plenty of radical Christian groups that are kept in place by a far greater non-violant Christian core.

CVP33

02-12-06, 01:42 AM

Wow, you almost sound like a libby that understands the real reason we are in Iraq, whether you know it or not. If you're into books, give "America's Secret War" by Gearge Friedman a try. A fairly bi-partison read on why we are there with a good history of how al-queda got to where it is today. Don't worry, he gives GW his fair share of blame on some of things going wrong.

And those darn Crusades, what was that, a 1000 years ago? I think the world has changed a bit since chainmale (sp) went out of fashion. Of course, if the Muslim world can't control its radical members, there's going to be a new Crusade before long. There are plenty of radical Christian groups that are kept in place by fair greater non-violant Christian core.

Everyone knows why we are in Iraq, unfortunately we (as usual) underestimated the cost in money and human lives. One day very soon the number of American soldiers killed in Iraq will exceed the lives lost in the World Trade Center, 2,645. Where is the outrage? Is a soldier's life worth less. And for what? GW deserves no blame. Blame is reserved for those intelligent few who truly make the decisions. I don't give GW that much credit. This year GW will attempt to pass a budget which reduces health care and education while we increase defense spending. And no one has a problem with this? We are quickly sliding down the intelligence scale world wide, most 8th graders don't even know where Iraq is on a map and no surprise because their education was mortgaged so we could bring peace to the middle east? Nice try.

M5eatr

02-12-06, 01:42 AM

You brought up Iran. I'm trying to help you understand why a country would make such imflamatory statements. We are the infidels. We frankly don't count because we are not muslim. Bombing a country or group of people will not make them more tolerant. Your WWII argument is spot on, so no issues there. BTW - Japan is now winning the economic war.

As to our other forum members who can't follow the string. This desolved when a forum member proclaimed that buying an American car is his way of fighting terrorism.

Again, I still don't understand where you are going with this. For someone to belive that we are infidels because the Easter bunny says so is just plain wrong. No one can prove that there is a God. Everyone has their own religion and religion for the most part should be interpreted in a non violent manner. You are rationalizing a position that is defective on it's face. If you agree that WWII was won by pounding them into submission, then it should be plain for you to see that the same has to happen now, or there will be no true peace.

M5eatr

02-12-06, 01:49 AM

double post.

M5eatr

02-12-06, 01:49 AM

Everyone knows why we are in Iraq, unfortunately we (as usual) underestimated the cost in money and human lives. One day very soon the number of American soldiers killed in Iraq will exceed the lives lost in the World Trade Center, 2,645. Where is the outrage? Is a soldier's life worth less. And for what? GW deserves no blame. Blame is reserved for those intelligent few who truly make the decisions. I don't give GW that much credit. This year GW will attempt to pass a budget which reduces health care and education while we increase defense spending. And no one has a problem with this? We are quickly sliding down the intelligence scale world wide, most 8th graders don't even know where Iraq is on a map and no surprise because their education was mortgaged so we could bring peace to the middle east? Nice try.

Ok, you are using too wide a brush here. The US is world renowned for its education sytem. Where do all the wealthy people of the world send their kids to learn,? The US. That some kid doesn't know where Iraq is speaks volumes of the parenting, or lack thereof. School spending does nothing if the parents aren't there reinforcing and instilling the desire to learn. Throwing money at it won't do a freaking thing except raise my property taxes.

Bombs and amo cost money. Sure get more of those because if we don't, there won't be a school anyway.

CVP33

02-12-06, 01:52 AM

Again, I still don't understand where you are going with this. For someone to belive that we are infidels because the Easter bunny says so is just plain wrong. No one can prove that there is a God. Everyone has their own religion and religion for the most part should be interpreted in a non violent manner. You are rationalizing a position that is defective on it's face. If you agree that WWII was won by pounding them into submission, then it should be plain for you to see that the same has to happen now, or there will be no true peace.

Infidels are non-Muslims. You'd do well to learn this as it will help you understand why we won't be successful in the middle east. We are only buying time until "they" get the bomb. If you don't understand this most fundemental point than you can't possibly understand why the muslim nations are so upset over the depictions of allah. You don't believe in a god, not any god, nor anyone to defend thier god as they see fit. So anyone taking offense to the depiction of their god is flawed. Now I understand. And by the way, religion is not non-violent by definition. And pounding a culture into submission? Are you serious? Do you actually think that buys you REAL PEACE? A lasting peace? Surely you're not that ignorant?

CVP33

02-12-06, 01:53 AM

Ok, you are using too wide a brush here. The US is world renowned for its education sytem. Where do all the wealthy people of the world send their kids to learn,?

Switzerland, Denmark, Great Britian. Why do you ask?

erp2863

02-12-06, 02:00 AM

I can't think of any war that wasn't followed by great economic prosperity in this country. Do you think all of the money being spent on the war is being dropped off in briefcases at the front door of Iraqies? Come on, defense contractors in this country are benefitting. And guess what, they employ Americans. Why is unemployment at it's lowest point since GW took office? Been to the mall lately? If things were going so bad for people, how come the parking lots are packed on the weekend?

How about the average American take a little financial responsibility on themself? Social security was suppose to be a safety net for those less fortunate. That's why I don't expect to get SS when I retire. Education? Ya, lets throw more money at public education in the hopes it can bribe students to being more responible children since we know most parents these days could care less with making sure their children do well in class. Health care, I've been to the doctor 1 time in over 5 years. I know people that go at least once a month. Americans are over medicated wimps that think a healthy lifestyle is something you get at the Walgreens pharmacy window.

You give too much credit to the average American. Most people really don't understand why we are in Iraq. And beleive me, it's not in the list of reasons that GW gave the puplic or press. WMD's would have a been nice. Connecting Saddam to al-queda would have been nice too. But forcing the hand of the Saudi royal family and Pakistan is what we were after and has worked. Iraq just happened to be the easiest target and a good place for long-term strategic military installations.

Now...Now...That's MR.PU$$Y...ok? I think I've earned that. And since we're throwing around the right to be royalty, like King and Queen, I'm appointing myself Lord Pu$$y, The Duke of Torque, and the Conquerer of VTech!!! Now, stand-ho, the King approaches....
-ace

CVP33

02-12-06, 02:14 AM

I can't think of any war that wasn't followed by great economic prosperity in this country. Do you think all of the money being spent on the war is being dropped off in briefcases at the front door of Iraqies? Come on, defense contractors in this country are benefitting. And guess what, they employ Americans. Why is unemployment at it's lowest point since GW took office? Been to the mall lately? If things were going so bad for people, how come the parking lots are packed on the weekend?

How about the average American take a little financial responsibility on themself? Social security was suppose to be a safety net for those less fortunate. That's why I don't expect to get SS when I retire. Education? Ya, lets throw more money at public education in the hopes it can bribe students to being more responible children since we know most parents these days could care less with making sure their children do well in class. Health care, I've been to the doctor 1 time in over 5 years. I know people that go at least once a month. Americans are over medicated wimps that think a healthy lifestyle is something you get at the Walgreens pharmacy window.

You give too much credit to the average American. Most people really don't understand why we are in Iraq. And beleive me, it's not in the list of reasons that GW gave the puplic or press. WMD's would have a been nice. Connecting Saddam to al-queda would have been nice too. But forcing the hand of the Saudi royal family and Pakistan is what we were after and has worked. Iraq just happened to be the easiest target and a good place for long-term strategic military installations.

You and I are closer to common ground than you may expect. I agree with EVERYTHING you stated above. I don't think that war is the correct way to go about an economic boon, although that may be an ancillary affect. I do agree that the problems of health care, social security and education are much more complex and cannot be solved by money alone. But I also believe they are more pressing than then need to seed democracy in the middle east or further our interest there. Anyone watching knows what's truly going on. Do we actually believe that there are that many insurgents left in Iraq to cause the kinds of destruction we are currently seeing? Obviously these militants are being supplied, trained and most likely from Syria, Iran and even Saudi Arabia. It is not in any of those countries interest to have a democratic country on their border.

CVP33

02-12-06, 02:21 AM

Now...Now...That's MR.PU$$Y...ok? I think I've earned that. And since we're throwing around the right to be royalty, like King and Queen, I'm appointing myself Lord Pu$$y, The Duke of Torque, and the Conquerer of VTech!!! Now, stand-ho, the King approaches....
-ace

You are just not right. And that's a compliment. :histeric:
Sir Ace, I am your humble servant.

ace996

02-12-06, 02:37 AM

You are just not right.
My service department says the EXACT same thing...I'll fix that. After I dig out from under this snow, I'm going to make haste to the Service Department and serve them warning, to tell those piss-boys to take heed and to STAND-HO when those from the Royal Crown of Pu$$y come hither. And then I'll let them know my tranny is leaking again, you know, to keep my reputation....

-Lord Pu$$y

wildwhl

02-12-06, 04:03 AM

Well, CVP, you know what they say:

"You are what you eat."

That might make your compliment about me valid - and that turns my V into a BMW and/or Mercedes.

Wow - cool investment :lildevil:

Truth be told:

LS6 >competition

WW

P.S. - I'm an As$$HOLE not a PU$$Y - guess that tips my cards as to my true talents in life :cookoo:

urbanski

02-12-06, 07:55 AM

This thread is soooooooooo far off topic... CLOSED IT :thepan:
if the OP wants it locked, i will

Got my vote, boot it to the lounge.
i dunno heavy....it's too "political" for the lounge and would be locked there in 10 seconds. The V gang (although they are a bunch of pu$$ies) are being pretty civilized in the debate, so it can rage on. :highfive:

Besides, I'm upset at you all for not defending yourselves against the "shallow and stupid" comment...hey 10sec, where are you? that all you got?

I PM'd erp and thanked him for the debate last night. I never mind a lively exchange.

CIWS

02-12-06, 09:21 AM

Infidels are non-Muslims. You'd do well to learn this as it will help you understand why we won't be successful in the middle east. We are only buying time until "they" get the bomb. If you don't understand this most fundemental point than you can't possibly understand why the muslim nations are so upset over the depictions of allah. You don't believe in a god, not any god, nor anyone to defend thier god as they see fit. So anyone taking offense to the depiction of their god is flawed. Now I understand. And by the way, religion is not non-violent by definition. And pounding a culture into submission? Are you serious? Do you actually think that buys you REAL PEACE? A lasting peace? Surely you're not that ignorant?

<Off topic post> Ok my friend since you've said this a couple of times now, let's clear up your understanding of Muslims and Islam. They are offended by the cartoons not because of Allah, but because of the Hadith ( The collection of the sayings and actions of the Prophet, Muhammad, and the companions ), which is similar to the Christian Gospels, in the Hadith Muhammad forbid making representations of him in a effort to prevent worship of his image. The cartoons not only transgress this, but they also show disrespect of their Prophet. That's the reason it is offensive, not because of Allah.

The individuals taking to violence over this are not, IMO, truly practicing their faith, but then neither were the ones who commited 9/11 and act as suicide bombers killing innocents. That is strictly forbidden in Quran. </Off topic post>

Assalamu Alaikum

Ziplicon Tuesday

02-12-06, 10:30 AM

CVP33 - Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi must be your idea of leadership. Your "blame American" arguments are naive - but what speaks the most about self rightious liberals is the tendency to assume anyone who does not agree with them is either uninformed or ignorant. Read your own threads and see how many times you've said "what you need to learn", or what someone has to do so they will finally understand, or "it would do you well to learn this".....no dude, maybe it's because people don't agree with you.

Oh and bringing up the crusades? Even BinLaden, whom I assume you see as a victim, stated 911 was due to US bases on Saudi lands - despite them being invited to prevent Sadam from attacking them too. I guess you and Nancy P would blame the US for Sadam atttacking Kuwait too right? And I guess we caused the hatred between Sunni's and Shites as well.

And yes, the Iraqi war matters to ME right now becasue I see the long term need to address the nature of oppressive governments who seek to destroy our way of life - maybe it's not pefect enough for obstructionists who complain yet block any attempts at solving issues - (did you cheer when the dem's cheered about blocking Bush's attempts to address Social Security?)

Maybe you should pay attention to what's going on instead of blaming - if we really wanted to pound anyone into submission we would have, several times over. Give the US some credit - or at least consider how we try to minimize the enevitable terrible aspects of war it before heaping on all the blame.

And hey, about the cartoons - how can anyone justify killing God's creations (humans) over something a man created - a cartoon no less.

CVP33

02-12-06, 10:55 AM

Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi

1) Not sure who those two people are so I am unable to comment.

2) Not sure why you think Bin Laden is a victim.

3) The Iraqi government could barely suppress it's own people let alone ours.

4) I am paying attention. My blame is reserved for the President and his decisions and focus. Cutting Medicare, Social Security and Education will affect thousands more Americans than a band of sheep herders with RPG's. Wake up.

CIWS - Thanks for the correction. I understood that the depiction of the Muslim prophet was strictly forbidden.

CIWS

02-12-06, 11:12 AM

And hey, about the cartoons - how can anyone justify killing God's creations (humans) over something a man created - a cartoon no less.

Long standing anger against "the west", misrepresentation of a faith, and incorrect education as to it's meaning(s). But then again any student of history can see it's been done by almost all sides / faiths, and usually due to a misunderstanding or miseducation. That's why several years ago I stopped listening to what those who were supposed to be "in the know" were saying and started my own scholarly pursuit of historical knowledge and of religions. It's really amazing how ignorant most of us are or have been, and are still willing to go to blows defending that ignorance. :helpless:

Got5onit

02-12-06, 11:23 AM

Without a doubt. Even though Ford & GM build many cars in Mexico and Canada, the company is still American. I refuse to buy an import.

:bouncy:

10secvette

02-12-06, 11:52 AM

if the OP wants it locked, i will

Besides, I'm upset at you all for not defending yourselves against the "shallow and stupid" comment...hey 10sec, where are you? that all you got?

signed,
queen:want:

That depends if the mods are still PMS'n.

I would hate to be banned for some chicken sh!t reason. You know how sassy I can be. I have some VERY IMPOTENT H/C info coming soon, and can't wait to watch Florida boy flame my results.

Signed,
"Free Revs"

wildwhl

02-12-06, 12:13 PM

:hmm: Where are the pics of the boobs? Where are the Free-Revs? :kick:

Absolutely. I've never bought a foreign car. Hell, I've never bought anything that isn't made by GM.

Dude... your missin out...

Vdrenaline

02-12-06, 12:51 PM

No, and if you did your shallow and stupid.

"You're" (the contraction of you + are) would have been the correct word to use in that obnoxious reply.

People are entitled to their opinons and there's no reason to insult someone who is simply asking a question.

kjr39

02-12-06, 12:56 PM

:hmm: Where are the pics of the boobs? Where are the Free-Revs? :kick:

I vote boobs...

Funny, but I was completely out of this thread when it went the way that it did as a result of CVPs comments.

However, someone mentions boobs and I'm right back in! :gnome:

Ziplicon Tuesday

02-12-06, 12:57 PM

Remember, you are what you eat.....

I wanna be a pu$$y too!

F

Should have sought Foam's wisdom in the first place - now THERE'S something we can ALL agree on....:highfive:

Vdrenaline

02-12-06, 12:57 PM

Bottom line - did it matter to you that the V is an American vehicle? I'm sure most agree it's nice that it is but did it influence your decision to buy? V owners tend to have some level of afluence - is buy American just a blue collar thing or what? And to be clear, that is in no way a shot at blue collar - on the contrary it's a recognition of blue collar loyalty and values.

But, did it matter to YOU?

It did matter to me. I wanted to buy American, but only if it was as good as the competition. The only area I felt that I had to make a compromise was in the interior. While I like the styling of the interior, the quality of the interior materials is not as good as an Audi, Benz or BMW. Otherwise this car is as good as anything the world has to offer.

CIWS

02-12-06, 01:08 PM

It did matter to me. I wanted to buy American, but only if it was as good as the competition. The only area I felt that I had to make a compromise was in the interior. While I like the styling of the interior, the quality of the interior materials is not as good as an Audi, Benz or BMW. Otherwise this car is as good as anything the world has to offer.

Yeah, totally agree with that.
I looked at her like a powerful fighter plane, such as an F15C. She's got it where it counts even though the cockpit isn't like that of an F-22 ;)

Ziplicon Tuesday

02-12-06, 01:09 PM

Vdrenaline - thanks for the supportive words in your previous post about asking a question.

Personally, I really like the interior - I dressed it up a bit with some aluminum trim but I like a somewhat spartan look - it looks all business to me.

And I agree the V is as good as anything (except for the few comprimises we all know about and agree should not be there). Yesterday I was on the tail of a Porsche Carrera S - I was able to keep painted to him through the turns and could out accelerate him at will. Now admittedly,we were on "my" backroads and knowing the roads matters but is the V really capable of competing in that league? Sure felt like it....

CVP33

02-12-06, 01:48 PM

Funny, but I was completely out of this thread when it went the way that it did as a result of CVPs comments.

However, someone mentions boobs and I'm right back in! :gnome:

My comments came after a forum member made purchasing an American made vehicle akin to fighting terrorism. BTW - Are we talking about stock or modded boobs?

2004ctsv

02-12-06, 02:06 PM

Just to spice things up a bit......

The company I work for has its headquarters in the Father Land.
The general concensus there is that the best German vehicle is MB. Audi & BMW are not in the same class.

The execs there drive MB - lots of turbo diesels. I've never seen one American (or even non-German) car in their lot

T

Ziplicon Tuesday

02-12-06, 02:13 PM

2004ctsv - I missed your point - are you saying they buy the MB's because they are the best or because they are German made? And if it's because they are the best, are you saying BMW and Audi is all they'd even consider (meaning they only consider German)?

Florian

02-12-06, 02:20 PM

BOOBS!!!!!

Show those lovely funbags!

Where are you hiding????

F

kjr39

02-12-06, 04:19 PM

BTW - Are we talking about stock or modded boobs?

I prefer naturally aspriated compared to siliconcharged, but to each his own... :worship:

wildwhl

02-12-06, 04:20 PM

My comments came after a forum member made purchasing an American made vehicle akin to fighting terrorism. BTW - Are we talking about stock or modded boobs?

Depends on the vintage. At some point modifications are inevitable :stirpot:

kjr39 - THAT'S THE SPIRIT :thumbsup:

Hey, anybody want to buy a t-shirt that says:

"Wheel hop sucks"
-or-
"will trade Wheel Hop for Free Revs"?

Maybe we could get a picture of the shirt covering stock and modified boobs to help keep this thread alive :alchi:

erp2863

02-12-06, 04:27 PM

Just to spice things up a bit......

The company I work for has its headquarters in the Father Land.
The general concensus there is that the best German vehicle is MB. Audi & BMW are not in the same class.

The execs there drive MB - lots of turbo diesels. I've never seen one American (or even non-German) car in their lot

T

I would have to say it depends more on where your headquarters is actually located in Germany. Mine is near Weimar (eastern germany). Most of the higher-ups there drive Audi's. My boss drives a beatup 80's Merc that is held together with duct tape. He's a cheap bastard. His other car is a newer Passat. When I'm there (8 trips last year for ~15 weeks) I notice more high-end BMW's then anything else. Spend any time in Franfurt, you are bound to see more Mercs and Porsches.

V-SATX

02-12-06, 04:31 PM

Am I being shallow and stupid? Let that statement speak for itself.

:tisk:

Jon

02-12-06, 04:42 PM

Hell yes. I'll only buy domestic.

kjr39

02-12-06, 04:44 PM

Saw this in another forum and got a chuckle out of it:

Imports are like tampons, every ***** has one.

MLV

02-13-06, 06:49 AM

Politics aside, I haven't bought an import in 25 years. V=value; American muscle at a good price.

M5eatr

02-13-06, 09:43 AM

I vote boobs also, maybe even some T&A. There has been too much pu$$y on this board lately, and I like a little variety.......