Low HR Training

Many years ago, I had completed many tris, culminating in an 8h+ Wildflower HIM (very much back of the pack, but I didn't care - was having fun!). A few years back, I attempted the Aoshima Marathon in Kyushu, Japan after about 3 months of training, thinking that if I could finish a HM as part of a HIM, a 4h full marathon should be doable; boy, was I wrong! I was very happy to reach the half-way point in 2h, but I hit the dreaded wall and bonked badly around 3h into the run and DNFed.

A couple weeks back, after plowing through three years of archived threads on CR, I was very encouraged by Jessie and Jimmy's impressive results. Reading up on Maffetone, it was obvious that I had trained incorrectly and raced incorrectly: I bonked because my anaerobic tank was spent.

Armed with the the knowledge from the CR forums, I bought a HR monitor and started to jog again for the first time in years. My MAF is 138. Although I'm a slow jogger, even I was shocked to find that I had to walk to keep my HR under 138. My mpm was a whopping 14-15! Reminding myself that Jessie started around 17 gave me a tiny glimmer of hope... ...I experimented with variants and finally settled on wogging (alternating between mostly walking and short spurts of jogging) so I would at least not develop bad running form.

In my first week, I actually wogged 63km (40 mi) at an avg pace of 9:01kpm (14:26 mpm) and an avg hr of 134 (MAF-4). Although much of it was just walking, I was shocked that I could put in that much volume, starting from zero. Even better, I felt great after every run - never before had I logged 40 mi in a week and felt so healthy afterwards. During this week, I picked up habits from Maffetone that I should have had - warming up and cooling down. I verified for myself that yes, indeed, it takes me 2-3 miles to really warm up. That implied that jogs (not including warmup and cooldown) less than 30min at my pace were not useful - I pushed my 5k's up to a minimum short run of 1h.

I got slightly aggressive/impatient by the 10th day and wogged quickly from MAF-10 to MAF in bigger steps. That day, I managed a 13:15 mpm, an improvement of 1:11 mpm from the average last week. I was ecstatic, but my body wasn't - ever so slightly, I could feel that my body didn't feel so hot. Unlike previous wogs, I didn't feel like I wanted to do the run again.

The next morning, I noticed that my rhr had shot up from 60 to 66 - a confirmation that I had overstressed my body.

The next two days, I cut back to MAF-15 and MAF-20 and incremented more slowly - an increase of about 3 bpm for every km. I feel much better now. My experience here has confirmed what Jessie said about how running slower than MAF could actually help even more. In fact, I remember reading that Mark Allen actually recommends base-building from 80% to 100% of MAF so that actually corresponds to MAF-28 for me: so I can go even slower, if need be! Also, since MAF is an approximation for staying way under LT, for me, personally, my most efficient training point could be even lower.

When I looked at my log, I realized that, in essence, I am trading pace for hr. I want my pace to be lower and I want my hr to be lower, but they usually go in opposite directions - as I exert more effort (increase my hr), my pace will go down. So, as a simple first approximation, I decided to calculate an AE (Aerobic Efficiency) which is simply just 1 / ( pace * hr ). So the higher the AE, the better. The idea is, I want to be able to detect improvement over time. In this case, a faster pace (lower number) or a lower hr counts as an improvement in aerobic efficiency.

For certain, refinements could be made (adding other factors or weighting pace and hr unevenly). For example, if I cared about distance, I may put a log( dist_km) in the numerator, but for now, this seems to be sufficient.

Here is my log so far with the calculated AE values. I have cut back to MAF-20 for now. I will continue here until I see no improvement in pace. If I feel good as pace levels off, I will go back up to MAF-15 as a starting point. Anytime I feel worse, like I don't want to run another 5k at the end of the run, I will drop to a lower MAF, as low as MAF-28 or MAF-30 (hasn't happened yet), until I feel better.

In my actual spreadsheet, I keep track of temp, dewpoint (as suggested by Jessie), and my daily 60min yoga classes to counter the wogging. I will also swim periodically and do passive gravity stretches (not static stretches that Maffetone opposes) to help yoga flexibility.

MAF-25 would be 100% fat burning, while MAF would be just 64%. and 36% of energy coming from sugar.

When I look back at those years, I did most ogf my running below MAF. A typical run looked like below (from Fall 2006). My MAF was 140 at the time (180-age+5)

THis run started at MAF -33, and ended at MAF -10. I probably didn't start burning sugar until half way through the run.

12:33 107

11:53 112

11:44 114

13:44 114

11:56 116

12:08 118

12:08 119

11:50 120

12:05 122

11:59 124

13:53 126

12:02 128

13:22 128

13:12 130

13:02 130

At he time I decided to increase my volume to the highest levels ever. I avoided MAF and stayed way below. I remember making rapid progress, and the combination of this and high volume led to a breezy, no-wall PR 3:22 marathon and a 1:34 half. There was a small % of tempo work or above MAF closer to the race. Until the past few years, I always started way below like this and only would get to MAF at the end of the run. I purposefully controlled the rate of increase in HR. I ran by miles at the time, and would just plan a certain amount of increase every mile or so (1-2 beats).

I also remember losing a lot of inches off my waist then. Lots of fat being burned.

I'm glad you posted this. I think I'll return to this practice as an experiment, and structure my training by miles but controlling the HR in a gradual rise like that.

I can't believe you still have your logs from back then - you keep damn good records!

But we need to get something straight here - it was from reading those archived CR forums that I picked up that gem of a technique that you used by starting MAF-a_big_number and progressively work towards MAF over each mile. When I looked at those logs, you were moving your hr up mile by mile like some kind of friggin' robot!

I can't find that post from hundreds of pages of archived forum messages, but I distinctly remember LoL when Jessie called you some kind God of Consistency (it was some other more outrageous moniker that I can't recall now) in describing how some obsessive-Artist-types like to control effort and manage to pull off negative splits consistently (as a compliment, of course).

So, it is I, sir, who should be THANKING YOU for sharing YOUR technique in the first place!

I should find a doctor to do an RQ test so I can build my own MAF to fat burning percentage table - I find that information extremely useful. Is such a test expensive? I suppose the information will shift as you become more aerobically fit?

I also love your comment:

I also remember losing a lot of inches off my waist then. Lots of fat being burned.

I have managed to cut down my muffin top down to a mushroom top, but I still got lots of fuel (fat) to burn! I'm 5'6" and 156 lb - can stand to lose at least another 10-15+ lb. I also find the following comment from you extremely encouraging:

At the time I decided to increase my volume to the highest levels ever. I avoided MAF and stayed way below. I remember making rapid progress, and the combination of this and high volume led to a breezy, no-wall PR 3:22 marathon and a 1:34 half.

As my first marathon was a DNF thanks to bonking, I intend to complete my second under 4 hours. It's in Dec, 2012, so I think I have enough time to build a monster base via MAF.

Being a numbers-kind-of-guy, I trance like a deer-in-headlights whenever I look at one of your pace tables.

The consistent progression just locks my mind every time. And thanks for sharing the fact that you've gone down to MAF-33 : I won't feel as bad should I have to dip down that low after some bad days!

BTW, have you heard from Jessie at all? He seems to be MIA from all the boards.

MAF-25 would be 100% fat burning, while MAF would be just 64%. and 36% of energy coming from sugar.

When I look back at those years, I did most ogf my running below MAF. A typical run looked like below (from Fall 2006). My MAF was 140 at the time (180-age+5)

THis run started at MAF -33, and ended at MAF -10. I probably didn't start burning sugar until half way through the run.

12:33 107

11:53 112

11:44 114

13:44 114

11:56 116

12:08 118

12:08 119

11:50 120

12:05 122

11:59 124

13:53 126

12:02 128

13:22 128

13:12 130

13:02 130

At he time I decided to increase my volume to the highest levels ever. I avoided MAF and stayed way below. I remember making rapid progress, and the combination of this and high volume led to a breezy, no-wall PR 3:22 marathon and a 1:34 half. There was a small % of tempo work or above MAF closer to the race. Until the past few years, I always started way below like this and only would get to MAF at the end of the run. I purposefully controlled the rate of increase in HR. I ran by miles at the time, and would just plan a certain amount of increase every mile or so (1-2 beats).

I also remember losing a lot of inches off my waist then. Lots of fat being burned.

I'm glad you posted this. I think I'll return to this practice as an experiment, and structure my training by miles but controlling the HR in a gradual rise like that.

Thank you.

--Jimmy

Couldnt agree more Jimmy it's all about being underneath and pushing it up as Lance said:

''I do a lot of specific work, no really intense work. It's all subthreshold.

''If this is your threshold,'' he continued, moving an envelope on the table toward him, ''the purpose is to push your threshold up and I believe the only way to push it up is to train below it. If you train above it, ultimately you're going to push the threshold down.'

I can't believe you still have your logs from back then - you keep damn good records!

But we need to get something straight here - it was from reading those archived CR forums that I picked up that gem of a technique that you used by starting MAF-a_big_number and progressively work towards MAF over each mile. When I looked at those logs, you were moving your hr up mile by mile like some kind of friggin' robot!

I can't find that post from hundreds of pages of archived forum messages, but I distinctly remember LoL when Jessie called you some kind God of Consistency (it was some other more outrageous moniker that I can't recall now) in describing how some obsessive-Artist-types like to control effort and manage to pull off negative splits consistently (as a compliment, of course).

So, it is I, sir, who should be THANKING YOU for sharing YOUR technique in the first place!

I should find a doctor to do an RQ test so I can build my own MAF to fat burning percentage table - I find that information extremely useful. Is such a test expensive? I suppose the information will shift as you become more aerobically fit?

I also love your comment:

I also remember losing a lot of inches off my waist then. Lots of fat being burned.

I have managed to cut down my muffin top down to a mushroom top, but I still got lots of fuel (fat) to burn! I'm 5'6" and 156 lb - can stand to lose at least another 10-15+ lb. I also find the following comment from you extremely encouraging:

At the time I decided to increase my volume to the highest levels ever. I avoided MAF and stayed way below. I remember making rapid progress, and the combination of this and high volume led to a breezy, no-wall PR 3:22 marathon and a 1:34 half.

As my first marathon was a DNF thanks to bonking, I intend to complete my second under 4 hours. It's in Dec, 2012, so I think I have enough time to build a monster base via MAF.

Being a numbers-kind-of-guy, I trance like a deer-in-headlights whenever I look at one of your pace tables.

The consistent progression just locks my mind every time. And thanks for sharing the fact that you've gone down to MAF-33 : I won't feel as bad should I have to dip down that low after some bad days!

BTW, have you heard from Jessie at all? He seems to be MIA from all the boards.

- Ken

Ken,

I've kept very good records, more out of fun than anything. I've always liked being the stats/standings guy in any league or competition in which I would find myself, or created (also the writer/comic/website guy). The only stuff I don't have is some of my first 5-6 months. I used the CR running log at the time, and one day it crashed, and anyone who had their log opened, lost everything. SInce then, I've just used my own. Easy to make.

The key to all this is stress management. I'm so grateful that you brought this up. Running deeper in the aerobic system reduces stress. Ego must be checked at the door, and a commitment to accepting whatever speed you go, whether it be walking or running, is key.

RQ test was 125.00 fo rme. Guy came to my house and we performed the test on my TM. Lots of places do V02max tests, but make sure they also measure RQ or fat-burning %. Ask.

Jesse is fine last time I checked a few years back. Out of respect for his privacy, all I can say is that he must have had good reasons for dropping out of the on-line running scene. Who knows, he might still lurk, or keeps anonymous. Miss his presence. God bless him.

I've kept very good records, more out of fun than anything. I've always liked being the stats/standings guy in any league or competition in which I would find myself, or created (also the writer/comic/website guy). The only stuff I don't have is some of my first 5-6 months. I used the CR running log at the time, and one day it crashed, and anyone who had their log opened, lost everything. SInce then, I've just used my own. Easy to make.

The key to all this is stress management. I'm so grateful that you brought this up. Running deeper in the aerobic system reduces stress. Ego must be checked at the door, and a commitment to accepting whatever speed you go, whether it be walking or running, is key.

RQ test was 125.00 fo rme. Guy came to my house and we performed the test on my TM. Lots of places do V02max tests, but make sure they also measure RQ or fat-burning %. Ask.

Jesse is fine last time I checked a few years back. Out of respect for his privacy, all I can say is that he must have had good reasons for dropping out of the on-line running scene. Who knows, he might still lurk, or keeps anonymous. Miss his presence. God bless him.

--Jimmy

Jimmy,

That explains why so many links from the CR forums are broken. Thanks for the tip on RQ testing - I will check with the local hospitals and clinics. In your opinion, is the VO2max test worth it, in the context of Maffetone? How do you use it?

Glad to hear that Jesse seems to be ok - despite never having chatted with him via forums, I deeply appreciate his generosity in sharing his successful Maffetone experiment. I am sure many others also owe him our appreciation and our improved health. I respect his privacy, but the selfish side of me hopes that he does pop in, one day, when he's ready.

I agree there's no room for ego in base building. Our primary goal isn't speed here: it's improving our heart's stroke volume, increasing capillary density, and promoting mitochondrial generation. If we upgrade our aerobic capacity and efficiency, the speed will come. I like your way of looking at it though: stress management. We want to increase volume, but never at the expense of increasing stress. On another note, I see on some other posts that you are climbing back into things after dealing with some difficult family issues - I hope everything gradually gets better for you.

This morning, after a 1h wog in shods, I did 10m of barefoot wogging: felt great! I plan to very slowly transition from shod to BF + huaraches, all working under Maffetone. With some luck and hardwork, maybe I can shed the shods for the marathon in Dec. Meanwhile, I am totally psyched on lowering my MAF some more. Given your post yesterday on controlling the gradual increase of your hr 1-2bpm per mile, I decided to decrease my rate of increase this morning from 3bpm to 2bpm per kilometer (but still steeper than/inferior to yours). So I basically went from MAF-20 to MAF-8 over the hour. I barely slowed down in comparison to yesterday, making the decrease in stress totally worthwhile. Maybe I will reach deep down to MAF-25 tomorrow, just for kicks.

Just for reference, my logs (work in progress) are here, if anyone is interested.

I'm only on my second week of Maffetone, but solid progress can be seen comparing the beginning and the end of each week. I have a feeling that it's a combination of volume, diet, and yoga to counter the runs that's helping me make progress. But perhaps, it's quickly cutting down the stress immediately that's most important.

I feel the whole Maffetone experience is quite bizarre, not unlike an episode of the Twilight Zone. I'm putting in decent volume at a slow pace, slow enough that my leg muscles don't feel much of anything after each run and yet, there is clearly cardiovascular improvement from a couple weeks ago. I almost feel guilty for getting something for nothing... ...almost...

I have never really bothered with the V02max number the test gave me, I was more interested in the RQ portion. Dr. Phil has talked about V02max not being that important, as he has seen athletes with BIG v02maxes have their hats handed to them by ones with lesser V02maxes (due to their BIG aerobic engines). I did the test to prove out my MAF at the time.

If you go to this website,, you'll find a testing site finder. in the lower right hand corner. This is how I found my guy:

http://www.newleaffitness.com/index.html

Things are better for me. Stress has been normal. I've been very creative. My RHR has been normal for awhile now. I've been doing some walking. I plan to start running again soon. Most likely will be mixing in some walking for awhile. I've put a bunch of weight on and it's getting hotter, so I'll be slow. That's cool. I'm really looking forward to working with a new plan and perhaps surpass the level I reached last year (one 1st place and one 3rd in AG).

My log is still a work in progress (I appreciate your compliment though!): google has been improving their spreadsheet - every time I check, it's becoming more and more of an Excel clone.

Recently, I've been playing MAF games. For example, my mid-term target for 10k is 1h. So I attack it from two ways. Daily, for my shortest wog, I do 1h and see how much closer I can get to 10k. For this week, I've gotten to the low 7k's. Then I attack it from the other side: I wog the 10k itself and see how long that takes. For this morning it was 1:25:28, down from 1:33:26 last week. So my 1h runs should go 7k -> 10k, while my 10k times should go 1:25:28 -> 1:00:00. When I reach that goal, I will extend the 10k run to 15k. Since I only wog on a track or on flat pavement (bicycle path) so far, there is no need for a MAF test. Like Jessie has stated before, every training run is a MAF test for me.

My second experiment is in lowering the initial MAF. I've seen improvements every time I lower my starting MAF: either my avg heart rate goes down or my pace goes up in a manner that clearly shows advancement (according to my Aerobic Efficiency measure). This morning, I tried going down to MAF-25 from my regular MAF-20, but I had a hard time staying that low (108-113) so I reverted back to MAF-20 (113-118). So it looks like MAF-20 is my sweet spot. I'll stay with it until I don't see any more progress.

Lastly, I started to do BF wogging yesterday. I will do a very short BF wog after the longer shod run. Yesterday was 1.34km. Today was 2km. I will probably increase by 400m every day or two until I hit 5km. Then I'll stay at 5km for a bit. I am preparing for the arrival of my huaraches in about 6 weeks. The goal is to gradually transition from shod + BF to BF + huaraches over the next few months.

My log is still a work in progress (I appreciate your compliment though!): google has been improving their spreadsheet - every time I check, it's becoming more and more of an Excel clone.

Recently, I've been playing MAF games. For example, my mid-term target for 10k is 1h. So I attack it from two ways. Daily, for my shortest wog, I do 1h and see how much closer I can get to 10k. For this week, I've gotten to the low 7k's. Then I attack it from the other side: I wog the 10k itself and see how long that takes. For this morning it was 1:25:28, down from 1:33:26 last week. So my 1h runs should go 7k -> 10k, while my 10k times should go 1:25:28 -> 1:00:00. When I reach that goal, I will extend the 10k run to 15k. Since I only wog on a track or on flat pavement (bicycle path) so far, there is no need for a MAF test. Like Jessie has stated before, every training run is a MAF test for me.

My second experiment is in lowering the initial MAF. I've seen improvements every time I lower my starting MAF: either my avg heart rate goes down or my pace goes up in a manner that clearly shows advancement (according to my Aerobic Efficiency measure). This morning, I tried going down to MAF-25 from my regular MAF-20, but I had a hard time staying that low (108-113) so I reverted back to MAF-20 (113-118). So it looks like MAF-20 is my sweet spot. I'll stay with it until I don't see any more progress.

Lastly, I started to do BF wogging yesterday. I will do a very short BF wog after the longer shod run. Yesterday was 1.34km. Today was 2km. I will probably increase by 400m every day or two until I hit 5km. Then I'll stay at 5km for a bit. I am preparing for the arrival of my huaraches in about 6 weeks. The goal is to gradually transition from shod + BF to BF + huaraches over the next few months.

As of this morning, I have finally dropped my weight to 69.6kg (153lb for 5'6" or 168cm). Still a lot to go, but losing about 5 lbs in 3 weeks seems to be a reasonably healthy rate of loss.

Besides MAF and a clean diet, I think what has helped me most to drop the weight has been daily volume of runs (1hr+ whenever possible), the addition of some strength training (pushups), and hot yoga classes (even after compensating for water loss).

Additional Exercise [gravity stretches, pushups]

Recently added nightly gravity stretches to counter yoga and the wogging. Also beginning to do some pushups to help me lose weight.

Environment [getting hot/humid, rain]

This week saw one morning with a temperature of 34C (93F) and dew point of 22C - totally killed my pace, indicating that I need to do some heat acclimation. With morning showers increasing, I have also shifted some of my runs toward the afternoon or later. Although this is somewhat annoying, after-rain runs are always cooler.

Pace/HR Improvements (MAF=138bpm), Barefoot runs

At the end of my first week, I had an average pace of 14:26mpm@133bpm.

Second week saw that drop to 13:38mpm@128bpm.

Third week saw freakishly hot/humid days mixed with rain. However, I did manage a 3km barefoot run of 12:51mpm@129bpm. I will continue to slowly increase barefoot mileage while limiting my shod runs to 1hr. The rate of increase will totally depend on what my body is telling me (pain, rhr, etc...) and the weather.

Funny thing is, shod running is becoming like a warmup for my end of hour barefoot run!

Week 4 saw an increase of volume to 52 miles from 40 miles. Staying under MAF has allowed me to increase volume without nary a sign of injury or fatigue. My usual morning run at the HS track involves at least an hour in shod (preferably, 10k, which currently takes me nearly 90min) and then a 5k barefoot jog after taking in some water.

Also noteworthy is a long wog of 15km completed at 9:19 mpk (a slow 14:54 mpm). However unimpressive the average pace, the consistency of the pacing once warmed up (8'58" to 9'29" for the last 9km) was satisfying.

This week was uneventful in terms of stress. However, static electricity accumulated on my synthetic singlet has made my HRM go crazy, forcing me to abort my barefoot run several days in a row. So far, I have two solutions to these problems: the first is to use Parker Spectra 360 Electrode Gel on the HRM. The second is to go bare-chested after an hour of MAFing.

On the weather front, I am beginning to get used to the weather patterns in Taipei. Typically, if there are heavy showers, they will rarely last longer than 30 seconds or so (a minute is long). So my current approach is, if there is no thunder and lightning, I will do my morning wog. I will revisit this policy when typhoon season approaches.

MAF Pacing/Warmups

After experimenting a bit, for warmup purposes, it seems like starting from MAF-20 is good for me. Initially, I tried a conservative increase of 1bpm per 0.5 km, but I am wogging so slowly that I don't have a chance to hit MAF until near the end of the run. In order to get a larger part of the workout near MAF while allowing for a relatively gradual warmup. I've started to increase 1bpm for every 0.25 km. For the barefoot jog, I start at MAF-5 since I am already warmed up from the shodding.

Breaking 8'00" mpk (12:48 mpm) Barefoot

This week saw two days where I managed to break 8 minutes per kilometer during the 5km barefoot run (7'55" and 7'57"). Looking forward to week 5, I hope to keep the week's average pace under 8'30".

After experimenting a bit, for warmup purposes, it seems like starting from MAF-20 is good for me. Initially, I tried a conservative increase of 1bpm per 0.5 km, but I am wogging so slowly that I don't have a chance to hit MAF until near the end of the run. In order to get a larger part of the workout near MAF while allowing for a relatively gradual warmup. I've started to increase 1bpm for every 0.25 km. For the barefoot jog, I start at MAF-5 since I am already warmed up from the shodding.

- Ken

Just my $0.02. but I think you will drive yourself crazy trying to warm up so accurately - and so slowly. MAF-20 is a good place to start, but personally I just run easy and let it drift up gradually (without being too fussy about the exact timing) for about 10 or 15 minutes until its where I want it to be for the rest of the run. (I walk about 5 mins first, just to get my HR up a little and ease into it - I don't count this in my time).

But I guess maybe your way helps with keeping close track of exactly where you are?

Just my $0.02. but I think you will drive yourself crazy trying to warm up so accurately - and so slowly. MAF-20 is a good place to start, but personally I just run easy and let it drift up gradually (without being too fussy about the exact timing) for about 10 or 15 minutes until its where I want it to be for the rest of the run. (I walk about 5 mins first, just to get my HR up a little and ease into it - I don't count this in my time).

But I guess maybe your way helps with keeping close track of exactly where you are?

You're right - warming up so slowly >is< driving me nuts: so I sped things up a bit this morning.

I typically walk 15min (not counted) before my jog.

This morning, I tried starting from MAF-20 increasing to MAF-10 in km 1. Then I increased from MAF-10 to MAF in km 2. Not only did this result in a faster average time for the entire 10 km (an improvement of about 1 mpm), but as you guessed, it allows me to chop off km 1-2 as the warmup and take km 3-10 as a MAF test.

But I like your suggestion about not being so fussy about the rate of increase - I think for the next run, I will roughly warm-up through the first 2 km, from MAF-20 to MAF.

Oh, one question: Have you found any benefit to making the target pace lower than MAF (say MAF-10)?

I have found that for warmup purposes, lowering the starting MAF from MAF-10 to MAF-20 actually helps me, so I start my warmups at MAF-20 now. I have no idea (haven't tried experimenting) for the target MAF though (I always use MAF itself as my final).

After doing barefoot running after my shodded runs, I have also begun to notice that my pace is around 1 mpm faster with the barefoot run. There are some factors that I need to discount: like drinking water, resting a bit (less than one min) while I take off my shoes, and being warmed up after the shodded run. But even so, BF running is certainly faster (and much more comfortable), at least for me.