Also, many congratulations to Wigan on a remarkable victory on the back of an absolutely brilliant performance.

I truly believe we can win and defend the League next year with some good signings in the right areas if Mancini is indeed sacked and Roman pulls a bluff and doesn't actually pay Jose's 17 mill release fee! Don't look at me like that wobbly- it's Roman- he's done weirder things!

So, as we are charitably reminded- now Martinez has more trophies than Moyes. Bless him!

Re: The Ongoing Serie A, La Liga, All English Football, Champions League Thread

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceman

Oh yeah I forgot about Kagawa. That could work. Yeah, another central midfielder would be the priority and I guess Carrick has solved one problem with his form this season. I'm going to be disappointed about Rooney however he ends up leaving though. I'd prefer to see him at Chelsea than PSG. It's kind of hard to imagine him anywhere outside the North of England though.

A buy in central midfield is the most important thing this summer, we need a top talent who can dictate a game as well as work hard and support Carrick's deeper work. I agree that it's hard to imagine Rooney moving abroad, Chelsea have become the new favourites to land him.

Quote:

Was the Ince Robson team Fergie's 1st great Utd team? I can't even remember who he had before that. If so that's at least 3 really great eras of Utd under Fergie.

Yes they were our first quality Midfield under Fergie, and then it became Keane and Ince by the time we wont our first PL. Before that Robson was paired with Webb and Phelan.

__________________"Now this life is etched in black but I wont be looking back, the rain washed out the tracks, I'll never find again"

Re: The Ongoing Serie A, La Liga, All English Football, Champions League Thread

Gosh, I hope there's nothing in this Rooney to Arsenal talk. I've been hearing whispers amongst the various ITK's that there is interest there on our part, and now the papers seem to be running with it too.

Re: The Ongoing Serie A, La Liga, All English Football, Champions League Thread

Quote:

Originally Posted by Van Petrol

Gosh, I hope there's nothing in this Rooney to Arsenal talk. I've been hearing whispers amongst the various ITK's that there is interest there on our part, and now the papers seem to be running with it too.

Don't mean to be disrespect to Gunners but can they can afford his weekly wage? £250K is too much for any club to pay that. If Rooney does go I think it will be Chelsea.

__________________"You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain."

Re: The Ongoing Serie A, La Liga, All English Football, Champions League Thread

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter Rider

A buy in central midfield is the most important thing this summer, we need a top talent who can dictate a game as well as work hard and support Carrick's deeper work. I agree that it's hard to imagine Rooney moving abroad, Chelsea have become the new favourites to land him.

I wish Fergie had stayed a bit longer as I think there would have been some good moves made this summer. With Scholes out maybe this would be the time to get the guy for the future to replace him. Also the chances for Ronaldo coming back would be a lot higher and with him a chance of a last European Cup. Moyes I think will have trouble or at least need a lot more luck to get past the likes of Bayern next year. Oh well wish him a happy retirement especially if there's any truth to him retiring because of stress (bit late for that lol).

Quote:

Yes they were our first quality Midfield under Fergie, and then it became Keane and Ince by the time we wont our first PL. Before that Robson was paired with Webb and Phelan.

I was kind of hoping it would be guys I hadn't watched play but I guess have to face that I AM an old bastard!

Re: The Ongoing Serie A, La Liga, All English Football, Champions League Thread

Quote:

Originally Posted by Van Petrol

Gosh, I hope there's nothing in this Rooney to Arsenal talk. I've been hearing whispers amongst the various ITK's that there is interest there on our part, and now the papers seem to be running with it too.

I think he can still do a job somewhere but he's probably not worth breaking the bank or Arsenal pay structure for any more. Don't know if Wenger is the man but some manager out there can tame him to at least be a good player if not a world beater throughout the later part of his career.

Re: The Ongoing Serie A, La Liga, All English Football, Champions League Thread

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter Rider

I don't think he would have any problems communicating, the other foreign managers in our league haven't. I mean with your criteria you only want a British manager.

My criteria is that any manager we should have been considering should speak English 100%. That's the only point I was making, I wasn't making a point regarding Klopp's English in particular.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter Rider

They've both had plenty of time in management though and Everton have had the kind of budget that is similar to O'Neill at Villa before he left so keeping within spitting distance of the top 6 is not that great of an achievement.

Moyes had virtually no budget at Everton, he had to sell in order to buy, maybe not in the same season, but eventually he'd have to balance books.

Keeping Everton in positions between 4th & 7th, when you consider the fact that you have Manchester United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, City & Tottenham all pretty much spending freely for the most part is a very good achievement. Realistically, he'd have had to have got very lucky with transfers to even come close to challenging the likes of Manchester United, Chelsea or Arsenal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter Rider

The bottom line is that we can argue who's had more overall football experience but the key facts are that Moyes has had 11 years, won nothing and only been to one final. Klopp, with less money, rejuvenated Dortmund, took back to back league titles, a German Cup and is in the CL final, one is a proven winner, the other is a proven water treader.

The thing is though, what has Moyes ever been expected to win or challenge for seriously at Everton? The league was never realistic, cups are pot luck alot of the time. Whereas Dortmund, Dortmund are expected to be challenging for the Bundesliga against Bayern. It's kinda unfair compairing those 2 instances, it would be like me saying Klopp won nothing in 8 years at Mainz.. I mean realistically he was never going to win anything there anyway.

Klopp isn't an example of a manager that is a born winner, I mean look at them domestically this season or the first 3 seasons he was in charge of Dortmund. He has lost Kagawa, will lose the wonderboy Gotze & Lewondowski in the summer, lets see how much of a born winner he is next season & see if he can rebuild a squad.. or was it a flash in the pan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter Rider

I concede this is true that he could be capable of managing a different style with different players at his disposal, likewise in the transfer market he could be well aware of talents he's never been linked with before simply because they weren't viable financially for Everton. However as it stands I see zero to be positive about with this choice of manager, especially when Jose was right their with his cap in hand wanting the job. I'll give him a chance of course but I've set the bar low for expectations next season.

I'd have preferred Mourinho as well simply because.. he is a winner. He wins everywhere, however even Mourinho has his drawbacks. He hasn't stuck around at a club for more than 3 years in his entire managerial career. He can build a good team there is no question, but can he then rebuild it when it needs to be rebuilt.. ? Also doesn't give youth as much of a chance as Moyes for example will.. or has done with Everton anyway.

Having said all that, I'd still have taken Mourinho & perhaps I'd have my concerns with him proved wrong... but then again the same could be said for Moyes & my concerns with him could be proved wrong. Lets just hope & pray, Sir Alex Ferguson is as good a judge of manager as he is player..

Re: The Ongoing Serie A, La Liga, All English Football, Champions League Thread

Quote:

Originally Posted by Van Petrol

Gosh, I hope there's nothing in this Rooney to Arsenal talk. I've been hearing whispers amongst the various ITK's that there is interest there on our part, and now the papers seem to be running with it too.

You don't want him at Arsenal?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceman

I wish Fergie had stayed a bit longer as I think there would have been some good moves made this summer. With Schioles out maybe this would be the time to get the guy for the future to replace him. Also the chances for Ronaldo coming back would be a lot higher and with him a chance of a last European Cup. Moyes I think will have trouble or at least need a lot more luck to get past the likes of Bayern next year. Oh well wish him a happy retirement especailly if there's any truth to him retiring because of stress (bit late for that lol).

I agree, I think at least one more season for Fergie to sort out a couple of key areas in the team, as you're right, it may be hard for Moyes to get the quality of signing we need as the uncertainty of a Fergieless United will be a concern for any potential targets who have multiple big club options.

Quote:

I was kind of hoping it would be guys I hadn't watched play but I guess have to face that I AM an old bastard!

That realization comes to us all mate, welcome to the club!

__________________"Now this life is etched in black but I wont be looking back, the rain washed out the tracks, I'll never find again"

Re: The Ongoing Serie A, La Liga, All English Football, Champions League Thread

Quote:

Originally Posted by B

My criteria is that any manager we should have been considering should speak English 100%. That's the only point I was making, I wasn't making a point regarding Klopp's English in particular.

I thought Mourinho was your first choice though? He doesn't speak English 100%.

Quote:

Moyes had virtually no budget at Everton, he had to sell in order to buy, maybe not in the same season, but eventually he'd have to balance books.

Keeping Everton in positions between 4th & 7th, when you consider the fact that you have Manchester United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, City & Tottenham all pretty much spending freely for the most part is a very good achievement. Realistically, he'd have had to have got very lucky with transfers to even come close to challenging the likes of Manchester United, Chelsea or Arsenal.

No budget? He paid £16M for Fellaini alone, this notion that he made the team by turning dust and bones into flesh & blood players is a myth. He didn't have the budget the top 6 have but he was working with a decent set of players that didn't come for free, no more so than the teams around him. Keeping Everton where he did was solid and consistent work for sure, but hardly the stuff that makes him close to ideal for replacing SAF, in fact I'm certain he was chosen for different reason than his time at Everton.

Quote:

The thing is though, what has Moyes ever been expected to win or challenge for seriously at Everton? The league was never realistic, cups are pot luck alot of the time. Whereas Dortmund, Dortmund are expected to be challenging for the Bundesliga against Bayern. It's kinda unfair compairing those 2 instances, it would be like me saying Klopp won nothing in 8 years at Mainz.. I mean realistically he was never going to win anything there anyway.

Actually that's not true, when Klopp came in Dortmund had only just staved off bankruptcy and were in a bad way. He concentrated on youth due to lack of funds and built a title winning team combing mostly homegrown talent mixed in with bargain signings. Last summer they bought their most expensive player ever in Reus, they paid £16M, essentially the money they got from us for Kagawa.

Quote:

Klopp isn't an example of a manager that is a born winner, I mean look at them domestically this season or the first 3 seasons he was in charge of Dortmund. He has lost Kagawa, will lose the wonderboy Gotze & Lewondowski in the summer, lets see how much of a born winner he is next season & see if he can rebuild a squad.. or was it a flash in the pan.

He's won back to back league titles against a team built on £200M at least, the Dortmund team combined barely cost as much as Bayern paid for Javi Martinez alone. What he has done is the equivalent of Moyes winning our league with Everton. By the end of this season he could well be sitting on a haul of 4 trophies in 3 seasons and 6 years at the club with a team built on a small budget and youth development, that's not a flash in the pan, that's a born winner.

Quote:

I'd have preferred Mourinho as well simply because.. he is a winner. He wins everywhere, however even Mourinho has his drawbacks. He hasn't stuck around at a club for more than 3 years in his entire managerial career. He can build a good team there is no question, but can he then rebuild it when it needs to be rebuilt.. ? Also doesn't give youth as much of a chance as Moyes for example will.. or has done with Everton anyway.

Having said all that, I'd still have taken Mourinho & perhaps I'd have my concerns with him proved wrong... but then again the same could be said for Moyes & my concerns with him could be proved wrong. Lets just hope & pray, Sir Alex Ferguson is as good a judge of manager as he is player..

The thing is I wonder if Mourinho would still be Chelsea manager now if not for Abramovich, as everywhere Mou has gone since has pretty much felt like a stop-gap until he could get back to the country he loves managing in. He hasn't achieved his CL in Spain goal but he's got the La Liga title to add to his two PL's and Serie A titles, I think if he'd come back to England now to manage United, he'd see it as his settling down for the long haul job. However all we can do is hope Moyes is not a disaster.

__________________"Now this life is etched in black but I wont be looking back, the rain washed out the tracks, I'll never find again"

Re: The Ongoing Serie A, La Liga, All English Football, Champions League Thread

Quote:

Originally Posted by B

Klopp isn't an example of a manager that is a born winner, I mean look at them domestically this season or the first 3 seasons he was in charge of Dortmund. He has lost Kagawa, will lose the wonderboy Gotze & Lewondowski in the summer, lets see how much of a born winner he is next season & see if he can rebuild a squad.. or was it a flash in the pan.

Not really arguing with you, since you make some good points regarding the comparison between Klopp and Moyes, but I believe the former has already overseen a rebuilding of Dortmund's squad in the past, when they had internationals such as Alexander Frei, Patrick Owomoyela or Nelson Valdez in the squad. He realised that those guys were getting older and would not take the club forward, so he looked to the club's youth setup and plucked Gotze, Schmelzer and Grosskreutz from there, while also bringing in talented youngsters from abroad for peanuts (Kagawa and Lewandowski, especially, come to mind), not to mention a Bayern reject who has gone on to become world-class, Mats Hummels. I honestly think he has the charisma and spirit to do it again, especially if he can get players such as Dzeko and Christian Eriksen to replace the outgoing Gotze and Lewandowski. Sure, Dortmund are probably in for a rough two or three seasons without the latter two, but I think they'll definitely be back under Klopp's guidance.

Regarding the Klopp vs Moyes debate, I think you made a point earlier that experience-wise, there isn't much difference between the two. And I mostly agree, especially because the only reason I'd have been more optimistic about Klopp's appointment as United boss would've been the more attractive playstyle he favours. But Moyes is already here, so it's a moot point basically.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B

I'd have preferred Mourinho as well simply because.. he is a winner. He wins everywhere, however even Mourinho has his drawbacks. He hasn't stuck around at a club for more than 3 years in his entire managerial career. He can build a good team there is no question, but can he then rebuild it when it needs to be rebuilt.. ? Also doesn't give youth as much of a chance as Moyes for example will.. or has done with Everton anyway.

Having said all that, I'd still have taken Mourinho & perhaps I'd have my concerns with him proved wrong... but then again the same could be said for Moyes & my concerns with him could be proved wrong. Lets just hope & pray, Sir Alex Ferguson is as good a judge of manager as he is player..

I'm still hoping Jose will come to United in the future, if and when the Moyes long-term project goes awry. Perhaps when he's more settled and is actually looking for a long-term project, he'll come here to try and emulate SAF. But that's just wishful thinking at this point, and I'm actually really hoping that Moyes does well and manages to bring some quality players over the summer. Speaking of Mourinho, I have a strange suspicion that he actually won't end up at Chelsea and might actually go to PSG in the end. Seeing as Ancellotti has recently claimed that it would be hard to turn down Real Madrid, not to mention Florentino Perez's soft spot for him, I could see Jose and Carlo basically swapping positions this summer. I could be horribly wrong though, so we'll just have to wait and see.

__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gotham's Knight

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Re: The Ongoing Serie A, La Liga, All English Football, Champions League Thread

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceman

Are you happy with that?

Nothing's forever. Sacchi' Milan or Pep's Barca lasted for four years and this is fourth season for Mancini too so I think it's normal to make some changes. His man-management is awful, he's egoistic, cocky and stupid and would want to spend 100M every summer. I rate Pellegrini a lot but I think Pep, Klopp, Mourinho or Ancelotti are better managers. However... yes, I think I'm happy with this decision. At least City will be stronger in UCL.

Re: The Ongoing Serie A, La Liga, All English Football, Champions League Thread

Quote:

Originally Posted by Two-Face

Don't mean to be disrespect to Gunners but can they can afford his weekly wage? £250K is too much for any club to pay that. If Rooney does go I think it will be Chelsea.

Tbh, I think we could, but actually doing so is an absolute non-starter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceman

I think he can still do a job somewhere but he's probably not worth breaking the bank or Arsenal pay structure for any more. Don't know if Wenger is the man but some manager out there can tame him to at least be a good player if not a world beater throughout the later part of his career.

A couple of years ago, I'd agree. But Wenger seems to have lost that midas touch he once had, imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bapi

Falcao very close to Monaco now. They want to spend around 200M this summer.

So it looks as though money has reared it's ugly head over prestige again.

Re: The Ongoing Serie A, La Liga, All English Football, Champions League Thread

Quote:

Originally Posted by bapi

Nothing's forever. Sacchi' Milan or Pep's Barca lasted for four years and this is fourth season for Mancini too so I think it's normal to make some changes. His man-management is awful, he's egoistic, cocky and stupid and would want to spend 100M every summer. I rate Pellegrini a lot but I think Pep, Klopp, Mourinho or Ancelotti are better managers. However... yes, I think I'm happy with this decision. At least City will be stronger in UCL.

Wow those 4 years went quick. Yeah fair points. I hope you do better in Europe next year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Van Petrol

A couple of years ago, I'd agree. But Wenger seems to have lost that midas touch he once had, imo.

Yeah, I don't know if he's the man to turn Rooney around either. Don't think Wenger could penetrate Rooney's skull to get his message across. If Fergie couldn't do it then there's probably very few who could. I think it would more likely be someone British who would have more chance at understanding this unique Gazza-like creature.

Re: The Ongoing Serie A, La Liga, All English Football, Champions League Thread

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceman

Yeah, I don't know if he's the man to turn Rooney around either. Don't think Wenger could penetrate Rooney's skull to get his message across. If Fergie couldn't do it then there's probably very few who could. I think it would more likely be someone British who would have more chance at understanding this unique Gazza-like creature.