I threw #33 in as an aside: we note that even the pope errs here in his judgment that “burning heretics is against the will of the Spirit” is an error.

Every heretic who is damned in the end will be burned with the express consent of the Holy Spirit for eternity, no? Calvinists (unlike Catholics and Arminians and Wesleyans and Orthodox) even assert that this was decreed by God from eternity before the damned person had any say in the matter at all. So I wouldn’t be so quick to make this point.

The issue (pondered beyond mere provocation and polemics and a “gotcha” mentality) is how heresy is to be dealt with and/or punished in this life also. The medievals thought that danger to souls was at least as dangerous and harmful to society as danger to their physical bodies or emotional well-being. They have a certain point.

I am a passionate believer in complete religious tolerance, and the Catholic Church has taken that course in Vatican II. We all pretty much agree on that now. If we wish to go back to the previous time and those practices, then all I ask is that we also condemn the many Protestant excesses as well, as I argued above in my comments on the Inquisition. [see my blog post constructed from those remarks]

I unequivocally repudiate the practices of hanging witches, and of drowning Anabaptists, and so on. I can do so with the understanding that my Protestant forbears erred in understanding the applicability of OT law to NT times.

But on what grounds can you repudiate the practice of the Inquisition? Or of Leo X’s comment above? Would that not be an instance in which the Church erred in a matter of doctrine? . . .

I appears to me that the Church has always thought of herself as standing in the apostolic tradition; and certainly the burning of heretics was considered to be within that tradition also.

The Inquisition was not a doctrine in the first place; it was a practice: a particular way of approaching the question of heresy and corrupters of souls, as it were. Secular society today is engaging in the same debate when it tries to figure out how to deal with captured terrorists. The first Protestants almost all agreed with this method, then in due course all Christians have forsaken it as unworkable and too potentially dangerous in its power elements (except for the reconstructionists in your camp — not mine — who would like to bring it back).

I would argue that no absolute scriptural argument can be made against it. This is why it can change, and why it can’t be condemned through and through as utterly evil. Most Christians agree that war is sometimes justifiable. Most of us accept the notion of police power (killing a guy who is holding a little girl hostage, etc.). We put people to death for committing crimes against persons’ bodies; are not their souls far more valuable?

Therefore, one can make an argument that capital punishment for heresy is entirely just and good for society. St. Thomas Aquinas (Calvinists’ second favorite Catholic after St. Augustine) did so. In the Middle Ages, this was the consensus, because they valued spiritual things and the soul far more than we do today. To them, theology truly meant something and affected all of life, whereas today we compartmentalize everything (including faith and religion) in neat little boxes.

It is easily shown to be a “biblical” practice in the wars of Israel against her enemies, commanded by God (often complete with mass executions), and in the various grounds for capital punishment under the law (e.g., I believe idolatry — a religious belief — was one of those).

It is also indicated in its essentials in the NT (lest I get the reply that I only mentioned OT stuff). For example:

Acts 5:1-12 (RSV) But a man named Anani’as with his wife Sapphi’ra sold a piece of property, [2] and with his wife’s knowledge he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. [3] But Peter said, “Anani’as, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? [4] While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” [5] When Anani’as heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear came upon all who heard of it. [6] The young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and buried him. [7] After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. [8] And Peter said to her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much.” And she said, “Yes, for so much.” [9] But Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? Hark, the feet of those that have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” [10] Immediately she fell down at his feet and died. When the young men came in they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. [11] And great fear came upon the whole church, and upon all who heard of these things. [12] Now many signs and wonders were done among the people by the hands of the apostles. And they were all together in Solomon’s Portico.

Peter presides over what is ultimately God’s judgment. God struck them dead for sin. It’s capital punishment for sin. Peter didn’t say to them, “let he who is without sin cast the first stone,” and send them on their way. We see, then, the notion of capital punishment for a spiritual matter: “lying to God”. Therefore, the underlying principle of the Inquisition is seen in the NT and in the New Covenant.

One might argue that the same sort of sanctioned corporal, capital punishment is at least suggested also in the hideous deaths of Judas and Herod. It ain’t just OT stuff.

This are of thought is similar to Christian thought on just war (with the Catholic Church taking the lead, as usual in today’s moral issues). Peace is thought to be the best way to go, if at all possible. Today, tolerance in matters of religious faith is thought to be the best approach. But it was not always so. And those who thought differently had some biblical warrant.

One reason why I point out the special hypocrisy of Luther and Calvin drowning Anabaptists is because it proceeded on a different principle: Luther had established Bible Alone as the Rule of Faith and plain Scripture as understood by the common man without any necessary authoritative Church or Tradition, yet as soon as anyone came up with a different conclusion than his, he wanted to kill them. Anabaptists were no different from Baptists today. I have noted many times that a Reformed Baptist like James White could have been killed in Lutheran or Calvinist circles, but I as a Catholic almost always would not have been.

Thus, Luther and Calvin were persecuting fellow Protestants who simply differed from them on matters now regarded usually as relative trivialities in Protestant circles. The Anabaptists were applying Luther’s own principle of authority. The Inquisition, on the other hand, often (and initially) was dealing with extraordinary heresies like the Albigensians and Cathari, who were species of revived Gnosticism and in no way, shape, or form Christian.

For thoughtful Catholic treatments of the developed Catholic stand on religious toleration and liberty, see the following papers, listed at my Development of Doctrine web page:

1 comment:

"Just War"? a Church has an obligation to put people to death for extreme forms of heresy? Now, there is the ol' Catholic Church that we all know and love.

War was invented by the deceiver, Satan, and requires senseless loss of life. It is as evil as the very doctrines that you are arguing for. As far as the heresies of the Albigensians or others, we will never really know. Your church did a fantastic job of destroying all of the evidence of their supposed heresies along with every man, woman, and child, which means that the only tale to tell is yours.

Your time is limited. God returns soon. Your Church will return to these methods again and seek to destroy the innocent, once again, for the crime of heresy... which simply means that they disagree with the "infallible one" who sits in the temple of God and declares himself God above all that is God's.

I pray for you friend. When you see these things come to pass, "Come out of her." She has fallen.

--- Marcus Grodi (director of The Coming Home Network, and host of the EWTN television show: The Journey Home)

I highly recommend his work, A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, which I find to be thoroughly orthodox, well-written, and effective for the purpose of making Catholic truth more understandable and accessible to the public at large.

God bless you in your indefatigable labors on behalf of the Faith! Only God knows how many lives your efforts have touched with the truth. . . . God bless you and give you joy and strength in persevering in your important ministry.

There is someone out there who says what I have to say much better than I ever could -- the smartest Catholic apologist I know of -- Dave Armstrong.

--- Amy Welborn (Catholic author and blogmaster)

I love your books, love your site, love everything you do. God bless you in your work. I'm very grateful for all you've done, and for all you make available. If someone pitches a hard question at me, I go first to your site. Then I send the questioner directly to the page that best answers the question. I know it's going to be on your site.

--- Mike Aquilina (Catholic apologist and author of several books)

People regularly tell me how much they appreciate your work. This new book sounds very useful. Your website is incredible and I recommend it regularly to new Catholics.

--- Al Kresta (Host of Kresta in the Afternoon [EWTN], author of Why Do Catholics Genuflect? and other books)

Dave Armstrong's book A Biblical Defense of Catholicism was one of the first Catholic apologetics books that I read when I was exploring Catholicism. Ever since then, I have continued to appreciate how he articulates the Catholic Faith through his blog and books. I still visit his site when I need a great quote or clarification regarding anything . . . Dave is one of the best cyber-apologists out there.--- Dr. Taylor Marshall (apologist and author of The Crucified Rabbi)

I love how Dave makes so much use of the Scriptures in his arguments, showing that the Bible is fully compatible with Catholicism, even more plausibly so than it is with Protestantism.. . . Dave is the hardest working Catholic apologist I know. He is an inspiration to me.

--- Devin Rose (apologist and author of The Protestant's Dilemma, 28 May 2012 and 30 Aug. 2013)Dave Armstrong['s] website is an amazing treasure trove representing hours–yea a lifetime of material gathered to defend Catholic doctrine. Over the years Dave has gathered the evidence for Catholic teaching from just about every source imaginable. He has the strength not only to understand the Catholic faith, but to understand the subtleties and arguments of his Protestant opponents.--- Fr. Dwight Longenecker (author and prominent blogmaster, 6-29-12)

You are a very friendly adversary who really does try to do all things with gentleness and respect. For this I praise God.--- Nathan Rinne (Lutheran apologist [LC-MS] )

You are one of the most thoughtful and careful apologists out there.

Dave, I disagree with you a lot, but you're honorable and gentlemanly, and you really care about truth. Also, I often learn from you, even with regard to my own field. [1-7-14]

--- Dr. Edwin W. Tait (Anglican Church historian)

Dave Armstrong writes me really nice letters when I ask questions. . . . Really, his notes to me are always first class and very respectful and helpful. . . . Dave Armstrong has continued to answer my questions in respectful and helpful ways. I thank the Lord for him.

--- The late Michael Spencer (evangelical Protestant), aka "The Internet Monk", on the Boar's Head Tavern site, 27 and 29 September 2007

Dave Armstrong is a former Protestant Catholic who is in fact blessedly free of the kind of "any enemy of Protestantism is a friend of mine" coalition-building . . . he's pro-Catholic (naturally) without being anti-Protestant (or anti-Orthodox, for that matter).

---"CPA": Lutheran professor of history [seehis site]: unsolicited remarks of 12 July 2005

Dave is basically the reason why I am the knowledgeable and passionate Catholic I am today. When I first decided in college to learn more about my Catholic faith, I read all of the tracts at Catholic Answers ... but then I needed more. I needed to move beyond the basics. Dave was the only one who had what I needed. I poured over his various dialogues and debates and found the answers to even the most obscure questions. His work showed me that there really is an answer to every conceivable question of and objection to the Catholic faith. That was a revelation for me, and it is one I will never forget. My own apologetical style (giving point-by-point rebuttals, relying heavily on Scripture, and being as thorough as possible) is influenced very heavily by his, and to this day I continue to learn and grow a great deal through his work explaining and defending the Catholic faith.

--- Nicholas Hardesty (DRE and apologist, 28 May 2015)

Dave has been a full-time apologist for years. He’s done much good for thousands of people.

You have a lot of good things to say, and you're industrious. Your content often is great. You've done yeoman work over the decades, and many more people [should] profit from your writing. They need what you have to say.

I know you spend countless hours writing about and defending the Church. There may not be any American apologist who puts in more labor than you. You've been a hard-working laborer in the vineyard for a long time.

I like the way you present your stuff Dave ... 99% of the time.--- Protestant Dave Scott, 4-22-14 on my personal Facebook page.

Who is this Dave Armstrong? What is he really like? Well, he is affable, gentle, sweet, easily pleased, very appreciative, and affectionate . . . I was totally unprepared for the real guy. He's a teddy bear, cuddly and sweet. Doesn't interrupt, sits quietly and respectfully as his wife and/or another woman speaks at length. Doesn't dominate the conversation. Just pleasantly, cheerfully enjoys whatever is going on about him at the moment and lovingly affirms those in his presence. Most of the time he has a relaxed, sweet smile.

--- Becky Mayhew (Catholic), 9 May 2009, on the Coming Home Network Forum, after meeting me in person.

Every so often, I recommend great apostolates, websites, etc. And I am very careful to recommend only the very best that are entirely Catholic and in union with the Church. Dave Armstrong’s Biblical Evidence for Catholicism site is one of those. It is a veritable treasure chest of information. Dave is thorough in his research, relentlessly orthodox, and very easy to read.

Discussions with you are always a pleasure, agreeing or disagreeing; that is a rarity these days.

--- David Hemlock (Eastern Orthodox Christian), 4 November 2014.

What I've appreciated, Dave, is that you can both dish out and take argumentative points without taking things personally. Very few people can do that on the Internet. I appreciate hard-hitting debate that isn't taken personally.

--- Dr. Lydia McGrew (Anglican), 12 November 2014.

Dave Armstrong is a friend of mine with whom I've had many discussions. He is a prolific Catholic writer and apologist. If you want to know what the Catholic Church really believes, Dave is a good choice. Dave and I have our disagreements, but I'll put my arm around him and consider him a brother. There is too much dishonesty among all sides in stating what the "other side" believes. I'll respect someone who states fairly what the other believes.

--- Richard Olsen (Evangelical Protestant), 26 November 2012.

Dave writes a powerful message out of deep conviction and careful study. I strongly recommend the reading of his books. While not all readers will find it possible to agree with all his conclusions, every reader will gain much insight from reading carefully a well-crafted view that may be different from their own.

--- Jerome Smith (Evangelical Protestant and editor of The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge), 26 May 2015 on LinkedIn.

I think it's really inspirational, Dave, that you pursue your passion and calling in this way, understanding that it's financially difficult, but making it work anyway. You and I don't agree, but I have to respect the choice as opposed to being some sort of corporate sell out that may make decent money but lives without purpose. You can tell your grandkids what you did with your life, whereas some corporate VP will say that he helped drive a quarterly stock price up briefly and who cares? It's cool to see.

Recommended Catholic Apologetics Links and Icons

Protestantism: Critical Reflections of an Ecumenical Catholic

Orthodoxy & Citation Permission

To the best of my knowledge, all of my theological writing is "orthodox" and not contrary to the official dogmatic and magisterial teaching of the Catholic Church. In the event of any (unintentional) doctrinal or moral error on my part having been undeniably demonstrated to be contrary to the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church, I will gladly and wholeheartedly submit to the authority and wisdom of the Church (Matthew 28:18-20; 1 Timothy 3:15).

All material contained herein is written by Dave Armstrong (all rights reserved) unless otherwise noted. Please retain full copyright, URL, and author information when downloading and/or forwarding this material to others. This information is intended for educational, spiritual enrichment, recreational, non-profitpurposes only, and is not to be exchanged for monetary compensation under any circumstances (Exodus 20:15-16).