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Topic: Victim mentality (Read 44933 times)

I simply pointed out the hypocrisy of Jews bitching about Nazis since the Nazis weren't nearly as bad as the Jews were in their history. Then I was firmly put in my place by everyone flatly stating that those were different people and that all happened a long time ago and what not. I tried to argue that it didn't matter if the organization was still exactly the same. Apparently I was wrong. You see, you can't hold an institution responsible for its own past criminal actions if none of the people currently in that institution never had anything to do with the crime. That would be like making the government of Japan apologize to China for Nanking even though not one single living member of the war-era government is still alive and serving.

I simply pointed out the hypocrisy of Jews bitching about Nazis since the Nazis weren't nearly as bad as the Jews were in their history.

What standard are you using? Sheer number of deaths? Cruel practices?

Total number of cultures destroyed and cruel practices. I can't judge numbers since no one has hard facts on ancient populations. If I remember correctly, they wiped out at least a half dozen groups of people.

I simply pointed out the hypocrisy of Jews bitching about Nazis since the Nazis weren't nearly as bad as the Jews were in their history.

What standard are you using? Sheer number of deaths? Cruel practices?

Total number of cultures destroyed and cruel practices. I can't judge numbers since no one has hard facts on ancient populations. If I remember correctly, they wiped out at least a half dozen groups of people.

Pretty sure the Nazis win on both counts. The ancient Hebrews cleaned out Canaan and a few others that had the misfortune to be in the way, but the Nazis did a ROYAL job on several cultures, religions, etc. And while the Hebrews just up and killed people that got in their way, they didn't fuck around with starving people while they had them move big piles of rocks back and forth.

Hell, on their Eastern front alone, the Nazis outdid the ancient Hebrews by any scorecard you care to name.

I simply pointed out the hypocrisy of Jews bitching about Nazis since the Nazis weren't nearly as bad as the Jews were in their history. Then I was firmly put in my place by everyone flatly stating that those were different people and that all happened a long time ago and what not. I tried to argue that it didn't matter if the organization was still exactly the same. Apparently I was wrong. You see, you can't hold an institution responsible for its own past criminal actions if none of the people currently in that institution never had anything to do with the crime. That would be like making the government of Japan apologize to China for Nanking even though not one single living member of the war-era government is still alive and serving.

At least that seems to be people's reaction in this case.

So the Jews that got murdered in WW2 belonged to the same "organisation" as the Israelites from the Bible story 2000 years ago?

An institution? A government is an institution, that you can hold responsible for something over generations, but not people who had the bad fortune of being born Jewish and living during WW2.

Also, Jews speaking about how the Holocaust was a bad thing are "bitching" about Nazis now?? bitching? really?

Can you please cite or link something on this history, because as I said before all I could find on this genocide of the Israelites invading Canaan are from the Old Testament. Nor can I understand, assuming that this did happen as described in the OT, how the Nazis weren't "nearly as bad" as that story, given the fact that the Nazis murdered about 10-100x more lives.

Ah, all those blacks, "bitching" about slavery, when those African tribes they came from were always enslaving and killing each other too! <--- makes about as much sense

I simply pointed out the hypocrisy of Jews bitching about Nazis since the Nazis weren't nearly as bad as the Jews were in their history. Then I was firmly put in my place by everyone flatly stating that those were different people and that all happened a long time ago and what not. I tried to argue that it didn't matter if the organization was still exactly the same. Apparently I was wrong. You see, you can't hold an institution responsible for its own past criminal actions if none of the people currently in that institution never had anything to do with the crime. That would be like making the government of Japan apologize to China for Nanking even though not one single living member of the war-era government is still alive and serving.

At least that seems to be people's reaction in this case.

So the Jews that got murdered in WW2 belonged to the same "organisation" as the Israelites from the Bible story 2000 years ago?

Your question implies that the contemporary ethnic and religious demographic which refer to themselves as "Jews" aren't part of the same ethnic and religious group that occupied the Levant roughly 2000 years ago. Or are you questioning the noun "organization" in reference to the same? I'm not sure I understand what you were trying to communicate.

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An institution? A government is an institution, that you can hold responsible for something over generations, but not people who had the bad fortune of being born Jewish and living during WW2.

My bad. I'm a little fuzzy on how to refer to Jews collectively in that context. Nothing quite seems to fit, and yet they remain a distinct collective entity. I mean, we are talking about the same group who claim the Israel as their god given property, right? What do you call that?

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Also, Jews speaking about how the Holocaust was a bad thing are "bitching" about Nazis now?? bitching? really?

Can you please cite or link something on this history, because as I said before all I could find on this genocide of the Israelites invading Canaan are from the Old Testament. Nor can I understand, assuming that this did happen as described in the OT, how the Nazis weren't "nearly as bad" as that story, given the fact that the Nazis murdered about 10-100x more lives.

I skimmed it, but the pertinent details seem to be there. Not sure the it includes the object lesson where god kicks their ass that one time they tried to NOT kill every fucking thing. That was actually pretty funny, what with god being the all loving, all forgiving big sky daddy he is.

As far as who is worse goes, how do you know the Nazis murdered 10-100x as many? Can you please link me to the population figures you used to derive that range estimate?

Aside from trying to quantify who out monkeyed the other monkeys, I think it's worthwhile to note that I have exactly as little respect for the Nazis as I do for anyone who thinks their great big imaginary friend said they get to do anything they want. It's obscene.

I simply pointed out the hypocrisy of Jews bitching about Nazis since the Nazis weren't nearly as bad as the Jews were in their history. Then I was firmly put in my place by everyone flatly stating that those were different people and that all happened a long time ago and what not. I tried to argue that it didn't matter if the organization was still exactly the same. Apparently I was wrong. You see, you can't hold an institution responsible for its own past criminal actions if none of the people currently in that institution never had anything to do with the crime. That would be like making the government of Japan apologize to China for Nanking even though not one single living member of the war-era government is still alive and serving.

At least that seems to be people's reaction in this case.

So the Jews that got murdered in WW2 belonged to the same "organisation" as the Israelites from the Bible story 2000 years ago?

Your question implies that the contemporary ethnic and religious demographic which refer to themselves as "Jews" aren't part of the same ethnic and religious group that occupied the Levant roughly 2000 years ago. Or are you questioning the noun "organization" in reference to the same? I'm not sure I understand what you were trying to communicate.

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An institution? A government is an institution, that you can hold responsible for something over generations, but not people who had the bad fortune of being born Jewish and living during WW2.

My bad. I'm a little fuzzy on how to refer to Jews collectively in that context. Nothing quite seems to fit, and yet they remain a distinct collective entity. I mean, we are talking about the same group who claim the Israel as their god given property, right? What do you call that?

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Also, Jews speaking about how the Holocaust was a bad thing are "bitching" about Nazis now?? bitching? really?

Can you please cite or link something on this history, because as I said before all I could find on this genocide of the Israelites invading Canaan are from the Old Testament. Nor can I understand, assuming that this did happen as described in the OT, how the Nazis weren't "nearly as bad" as that story, given the fact that the Nazis murdered about 10-100x more lives.

I skimmed it, but the pertinent details seem to be there. Not sure the it includes the object lesson where god kicks their ass that one time they tried to NOT kill every fucking thing. That was actually pretty funny, what with god being the all loving, all forgiving big sky daddy he is.

As far as who is worse goes, how do you know the Nazis murdered 10-100x as many? Can you please link me to the population figures you used to derive that range estimate?

Aside from trying to quantify who out monkeyed the other monkeys, I think it's worthwhile to note that I have exactly as little respect for the Nazis as I do for anyone who thinks their great big imaginary friend said they get to do anything they want. It's obscene.

You know what, I can totally see where you are coming from. I think we should totally call out those Greek assholes because they got all pissy because some Turkish dude nailed some king's wife, so they went and wiped out a whole nation.

You know what, I can totally see where you are coming from. I think we should totally call out those Greek assholes because they got all pissy because some Turkish dude nailed some king's wife, so they went and wiped out a whole nation.

Now you're thinking! But don't stop there. What about that fucking ape what first picked up a club and brained some poor idiot and started all this mess, eh? Fucking chimpanzees! Who do they think they are, anyway?

(I think the problem here is that my hatred for mankind isn't nearly focused enough. I tend to only shoot at whatever happens to wander into my sights.)

Or maybe you just did what Trip asked you not to do, and cited a source that only referenced the Biblical "evidence", which, if it needs to be explained, has as much physical evidence (or less) to support it than the Iliad. To further expand, the modern-day people of Greece have about as much in common with the Argives as the modern-day Jews have in common with the Biblical Israelites.

I'd say the modern day Greeks have less in common. Or have they renounced Christianity and reverted to the old gods?

However, point taken. I'm a bit busy here at work and wasn't paying nearly as close attention as I should have. I also stopped caring about this thread quite some time ago. I'm only posting in it since someone resurrected it. I understood back then what was wrong with my original assumptions.

I'd say the modern day Greeks have less in common. Or have they renounced Christianity and reverted to the old gods?

However, point taken. I'm a bit busy here at work and wasn't paying nearly as close attention as I should have. I also stopped caring about this thread quite some time ago. I'm only posting in it since someone resurrected it. I understood back then what was wrong with my original assumptions.

meh

Non-argument, as religions aren't static, and ~4500 years of cultural change are quite evident in the various practices of Judaism vis-a-vis the proscriptions of the texts.

If you understood then, why are you making the same lazy, and quite frankly, ill-informed arguments now?

TheGovernment should and (kind of) has apologised. It sends a message- we acted lile horrible assholes amd we know it was wrong. We want to move in a better dirextion now and respect your culure enough to not want to murder you all.

I simply pointed out the hypocrisy of Jews bitching about Nazis since the Nazis weren't nearly as bad as the Jews were in their history. Then I was firmly put in my place by everyone flatly stating that those were different people and that all happened a long time ago and what not. I tried to argue that it didn't matter if the organization was still exactly the same. Apparently I was wrong. You see, you can't hold an institution responsible for its own past criminal actions if none of the people currently in that institution never had anything to do with the crime. That would be like making the government of Japan apologize to China for Nanking even though not one single living member of the war-era government is still alive and serving.

At least that seems to be people's reaction in this case.

Logged

If sheep entrails could in any way be related to the weather, i.e. sheep trails only originate where it rains, then you could use it as an accurate model for discerning what the weathers going to be like. Either, sheep shit makes it rain, or raining makes sheep shit. Sheep don't shit "randomly" sheep shit after they eat, it doesn't rain "randomly" it rains after water collects in the atmosphere.

An institution? A government is an institution, that you can hold responsible for something over generations, but not people who had the bad fortune of being born Jewish and living during WW2.

My bad. I'm a little fuzzy on how to refer to Jews collectively in that context. Nothing quite seems to fit, and yet they remain a distinct collective entity. I mean, we are talking about the same group who claim the Israel as their god given property, right? What do you call that?

No, we were talking about Jewish people getting killed by the millions in WW2.

Just like not all Christians believe abortion is evil and non believers will burn in hell for eternity, and just like how not all Muslims want to blow up all the infidels, not all Jews believe or believed Israel is their god given property.

The Nazis didn't care, because they were not looking at race, not religion. If you were born of a Jewish mother is what mattered, not if you shared any Jewish traditions or beliefs.

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Also, Jews speaking about how the Holocaust was a bad thing are "bitching" about Nazis now?? bitching? really?

Can you please cite or link something on this history, because as I said before all I could find on this genocide of the Israelites invading Canaan are from the Old Testament. Nor can I understand, assuming that this did happen as described in the OT, how the Nazis weren't "nearly as bad" as that story, given the fact that the Nazis murdered about 10-100x more lives.

I skimmed it, but the pertinent details seem to be there. Not sure the it includes the object lesson where god kicks their ass that one time they tried to NOT kill every fucking thing. That was actually pretty funny, what with god being the all loving, all forgiving big sky daddy he is.

SIGH right back at you. I told you I found the OT references, I know it's also in some long list of commandments.

What I said was I couldn't find any historical references. You know, because just because something is written in a book that is known to be less than accurate about many things, doesn't mean it actually happened for realness.

I just want to know what really happened. Not saying it didn't happen, but I'm fairly sure it wasn't whatever was told in the Bible or Old Testament--for the simple fact that the premises for the story are proven to be historically false (such as the Israelites beind indigenous to Canaan).

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As far as who is worse goes, how do you know the Nazis murdered 10-100x as many? Can you please link me to the population figures you used to derive that range estimate?

Well it starts with the fact that there simply weren't as many people around back then, 6 million would be a pretty big hit, so I decided to look into the numbers. Which is why I'm asking you for historical proof of this event, not Bible stories.

But since Bible stories was all I got, the Bible quotes there were 600k people doing the Exodus. Assuming they overpowered the Canaanites, I'm going to say there can't have been more than 600k Canaanites. That's 10x less than what the Nazis did.

Except that the Exodus never happened and the 600k number must have been completely overblown for all sorts of practical reasons of surviving in the desert and leaving behind archeological artifacts and whatnot--they assume the 600k number is some sort of germiatric (sp?) code. So maybe 10x less than that.

Overpowering and killing off 60,000 Canaanites is a pretty horrible feat, but also a lot more likely than orchestrating a genocide of Holocaust proportions in an area that probably didn't even have enough people to pull it off.

So that's how I got to a rough estimate of 10-100x.

Once you dig up some sources that are not fairytales, I'm curious to find out how close I was, given that before yesterday I hardly knew anything about it, and already now seem to understand it better than you do.

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Aside from trying to quantify who out monkeyed the other monkeys, I think it's worthwhile to note that I have exactly as little respect for the Nazis as I do for anyone who thinks their great big imaginary friend said they get to do anything they want. It's obscene.

Except of course that Nazis proved they actually were capable of those horrible things by actually doing them, and the Jews killed in WW2 were merely accused of believing such horrible things for being born Jewish regardless of belief.

In the same sense I can somewhat understand your comparison of Nazis and certain types of fundamental Christians that believe some really horrible things. But if I were that to allow me to project this horribleness onto all Christians, that'd make me a bigot.

And if I were to go even further and say 60 years after some hypothetical Christian holocaust, that those Christians had it coming because of their obscenely horrible beliefs, then I'd not only be a bigot, but I'd be as miserable an excuse for a human being as you're making yourself out to be.

TheGovernment should and (kind of) has apologised. It sends a message- we acted lile horrible assholes amd we know it was wrong. We want to move in a better dirextion now and respect your culure enough to not want to murder you all.

And if their government doesn't apologize enough, you get to kill off all the people, and any survivors and their descendants don't get to BITCH about it.