IMO, though I love Tom Hardy as Bane, I don't think making him ONLY a physical threat to Batman was a good idea. I think what I love most about the Nolan series is that Batman doesn't just physically fight his villains, he combats their ideologies. I think this is what made the Joker such a phenomenal villain, the battle at the end (ferries) seems so much more significant/potent because this isn't just Batman trying to fight his way through another Joker scheme, these are two men willing to go to the extremes to fight for their philosophies.

Ra's- Represents the idea that criminals most be combated using the most extreme methods possible.

Key Quotes:

"Criminals thrive on the indulgence of society's understanding."

"Your compassion is a weakness your enemies will not share."

Contrasts with Batman: Bruce believes that this "compassion" is what seperates him from the criminals. He also believes Ra's methods to be too extreme, he disagrees that Gotham is no longer worth saving and would rather try to inspire a city than destroy it

The Joker- Represents chaos. The Joker is essentially a misanthropist and believes that human being's moral code is a joke. He also believes that when times get hard society will abandon its moral code and destroy each other

Key Quotes: "See, their morals, their code: it's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of trouble. They're only as good as the world allows them to be. I'll show you. When the chips are down, these, uh… these civilized people, they'll eat each other. See, I'm not a monster; I'm just ahead of the curve."

Contrast with Batman: Batman is an idealist who believes in the human spirit while the Joker believes that the moral code of most people is essentially a fabrication. Bruce believes that even in combatting those without rules having your own moral code is important and the Joker believes that the best way to live your life is without rules. Bruce's whole goal is to inspire people to do good, the Joker's goal is to prove that doing the opposite is human nature

Of course this is all open to opinion, but I find Bane's ideology essentially being a rehash (or so we are to assume) of Ra's to be very boring. While the characterization is fantastic, I don't find him up to par with the main villains of the previous movie because all he can do is beat up Batman. There is no deeper conflict going on than the standard comic book fare. Yes Bane wants to protect Talia, but we are never given a reason why he believes in the League's ideology so much or why he would have a personal vendetta against Gotham/Bruce Wayne

Christopher Nolan said it best when he said Ra's al Ghul represented the religious leader of sorts, Joker represents the anarchist and Bane represents the militant tyrant, which the last is always the hardest to try to develop but I feel Bane is developed perfectly enough as this physical threat but also this intellectual man.

Christopher Nolan said it best when he said Ra's al Ghul represented the religious leader of sorts, Joker represents the anarchist and Bane represents the militant tyrant, which the last is always the hardest to try to develop but I feel Bane is developed perfectly enough as this physical threat but also this intellectual man.

I'm not sure what makes Bane so intelligent. All his plans rely on the stupidity of his foes/enemies rather than his own brilliance.

Note: The below are not meant to be plotholes. My point is to show that Bane really isn't all that brilliant and a lot of his plan sacrifices logic for spectacle

Plane Heist: The CIA is comprised of some of the most paranoid individuals on Earth. You're telling me they let men on their own plane without checking their identities first?

The plane heist is also stupid for a couple of other reasons, why would the CIA not suspect foul play with the way the plane was blown up? Random halves of the plane show up miles and miles away from each other and no one is suspicious?

The Stock Market: Why would no one be suspicious of a simultaneous terrorist attack and bankrupting of the most powerful/rich man in the city? How would Bruce have no way to prove that the stock market thing was a fraud?

Gordon sending the whole police department down in to the sewers is just stupid. I'm not even going to go over why, common sense should tell most people why

And no, this is not a pedantic attempt to try to find plotholes. But I never saw the intelligence/strategic genius that Nolan keeps saying Bane is supposed to possess. Yes he is very articulate and a great speaker, but beyond that the success of his plans are more due to the stupidity of his enemies than his actual intelligence.

Note: I know it's coming, so I'll upfront admit that a lot of the Joker's plans were somewhat questionable. But they never eschewed logic so prominently as they did with Bane's. Also, the Joker is not the most logical of characters to begin with while Bane is supposed to be precises and a mastermind

That five month plan has got to be one of the worst villainous plans I've ever seen in a movie

It's all comparable to me. Sending most of the cops underground...rigging an entire hospital to blow when it's open 24/7.

It has nothing to do with Joker being a less logical character, it's just that the films have been playing by their own rules when it comes to the vulnerability of Gotham, in all 3.

Bane was shown to be precise and methodical, and very much behaved like a military commander. If you're saying his characterization was great Makaveli...well that was his characterization. So what are you getting at then?

It's all comparable to me. Sending most of the cops underground...rigging an entire hospital to blow when it's open 24/7.

It has nothing to do with Joker being a less logical character, it's just that the films have been playing by their own rules when it comes to the vulnerability of Gotham, in all 3.

Bane was shown to be precise and methodical, and very much behaved like a military commander. If you're saying his characterization was great Makaveli...well that was his characterization. So what are you getting at then?

Characterization as in the way Tom Hardy played him. I thought Hardy gave a great performance, but I just didn't buy Bane as some some sort of strategic mastermind. Maybe characterization was the wrong word, but I really liked the performance

Fair enough. For me though sometimes a great performance can help inform a character. For instance, we never really get to see Selina being a "master" jewel theif, but Anne played the role with such sophistication and confidence that I had no trouble buying into it.

Bane is hardly just a physical threat in this film. i thought the way he was written and performed to be this incredibly charismatic character who uses this to his advantage to really make Bruce and Gotham suffer. I also do think it was implied through some dialogue and the basic backstory that Bane had resentment toward both Bruce and Ra's for having cast him out while having chosen Bruce as his heir. Bruce shows he's not a true believer and betrays them. This layer permeates throughout both Bane and Talia's plan to be incredibly hurtful about their revenge, ultimately leading to their own demise just as had almost defeated Bruce. He had wanted to hurt the criminal world as he did by the end of TDK and begining of TDKR with the Dent act, but ultimately realizes the key is not in hurting, but in inspiring hope. Kind of like the idea in Looper about breaking the cycle of pain in order to move on. Bane is such a great foil, and this information is used to challenge Bruce both physically and mentally throughout this film, so it's a bit bizarre to see him characterized as a "purely" physical threat. He's definitely the most physical threat, but he's still more than that. While Joker challenged his moral code by being the opposite of Bruce, Bane presents another type of challenge by essentially being the Bruce Ra's had wanted him to be, and presenting Bruce with a dark mirror.

His motivation for wanting to destroy Gotham is the same as the rest of the characters - when he was young he was deeply affected by the conditions of his life (being stuck in a prison from a young age). Much of what Bane and Talia say throughout the film has to do with the unjust distribution of wealth and power. The sentencing hearing, as said by Crane, is sentencing those who have unjustly used power over those with less power than themselves. Ra's' reasonings for adopting the teachings of the LOS had to do with the sadness over the loss of a loved one. Bane's had to do with the condition of his upbringing, and being initially brought in by Ra's and his group until being cast out. In this way, Bane is actually alot like Blake, and Talia is more like Bruce. Bane and Blake were, from an early age, in a situation that made them seek out justice. But Bane's methods came from the LOS, and Blake's came from the Batman. Ra's, Talia and Bruce's desire for justice came from the pain of the loss of a loved one. It ultimately is Bruce's goal to inspire somebody like Blake to adopt his code for seeking justice by inspiring hope rather than through destruction and vengeance. Some very well thought out stuff.

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"No great genius has ever existed without some touch of madness." - Aristotle

At the end of the day, he knew how to outsmart Bats by leading him to the sewers. He knew just how to get him there, by securing Selinas allegiance with fear and having her lead him into what no-win scenario; trapped and surrounded by Bane and a fully armed small militia.

Batman to Selina: you're making a big mistake

Bane to Barman: Not as big as yours, I'm afraid......

Tht was boss. Admit it, that is a pretty solid example of Bane showing intellect and outsmarting Batman. Bats definitely made a mistake that time.

Bane represents more than a physical threat. In terms of social relevancy, he represents two aspects that threaten any establishment (which all three Batman films feature an aspect of, given that Batman is a definitively establishment figure). First he represents the dangers of radical, opportunistic populism. He uses misconstrued half-truths and real issues to create social unrest to his own benefit. He also represents the threat of military take over. Essentially a man who would be a dictator who takes power through military conquest.

That continues the themes of religious zealotry from Ra's Al Ghul (and Talia) anti-authority anarchy from the Joker.

But as a character, being a no-nonsense, efficient killing machine is simply not as charismatic or interesting as the tempting foil (Joker) or meglomaniac/evil father figure (Ra's), though I do think Bane was executed to the fullest of his character while I think Ra's could have been done even better.

My thoughts on it.

__________________
"Let us disappoint the Men who are raising themselves upon the ruin of this Country."

I'm not sure what makes Bane so intelligent. All his plans rely on the stupidity of his foes/enemies rather than his own brilliance.

Note: The below are not meant to be plotholes. My point is to show that Bane really isn't all that brilliant and a lot of his plan sacrifices logic for spectacle

Plane Heist: The CIA is comprised of some of the most paranoid individuals on Earth. You're telling me they let men on their own plane without checking their identities first?

The plane heist is also stupid for a couple of other reasons, why would the CIA not suspect foul play with the way the plane was blown up? Random halves of the plane show up miles and miles away from each other and no one is suspicious?

The Stock Market: Why would no one be suspicious of a simultaneous terrorist attack and bankrupting of the most powerful/rich man in the city? How would Bruce have no way to prove that the stock market thing was a fraud?

Gordon sending the whole police department down in to the sewers is just stupid. I'm not even going to go over why, common sense should tell most people why

And no, this is not a pedantic attempt to try to find plotholes. But I never saw the intelligence/strategic genius that Nolan keeps saying Bane is supposed to possess. Yes he is very articulate and a great speaker, but beyond that the success of his plans are more due to the stupidity of his enemies than his actual intelligence.

Note: I know it's coming, so I'll upfront admit that a lot of the Joker's plans were somewhat questionable. But they never eschewed logic so prominently as they did with Bane's. Also, the Joker is not the most logical of characters to begin with while Bane is supposed to be precises and a mastermind

That five month plan has got to be one of the worst villainous plans I've ever seen in a movie

You mean like Joker assuming that no cop on the prisoner ferry would wire into the GCPD and ask for a bomb squad expert to help disarm the bomb? You mean like Joker assuming the cops would not convince the mayor on grounds of safety to hold Loeb's memorial service at a location without thousands of potentially open windows to the point where they're not looking at the people on the ground as threats? You mean like Joker assuming the chopper will fly at just the right level to hit his wires on the exact street that was needed to bring it down? Like the Joker assuming a cop would stay in the interrogation room with him, so he could be used as a hostage to escape?

Yep, it was only Bane who had to rely on the bad decisions of others to succeed.

__________________
"Let us disappoint the Men who are raising themselves upon the ruin of this Country."

I'm not sure what makes Bane so intelligent. All his plans rely on the stupidity of his foes/enemies rather than his own brilliance.

Note: The below are not meant to be plotholes. My point is to show that Bane really isn't all that brilliant and a lot of his plan sacrifices logic for spectacle

Plane Heist: The CIA is comprised of some of the most paranoid individuals on Earth. You're telling me they let men on their own plane without checking their identities first?

The plane heist is also stupid for a couple of other reasons, why would the CIA not suspect foul play with the way the plane was blown up? Random halves of the plane show up miles and miles away from each other and no one is suspicious?

The Stock Market: Why would no one be suspicious of a simultaneous terrorist attack and bankrupting of the most powerful/rich man in the city? How would Bruce have no way to prove that the stock market thing was a fraud?

Gordon sending the whole police department down in to the sewers is just stupid. I'm not even going to go over why, common sense should tell most people why

And no, this is not a pedantic attempt to try to find plotholes. But I never saw the intelligence/strategic genius that Nolan keeps saying Bane is supposed to possess. Yes he is very articulate and a great speaker, but beyond that the success of his plans are more due to the stupidity of his enemies than his actual intelligence.

Note: I know it's coming, so I'll upfront admit that a lot of the Joker's plans were somewhat questionable. But they never eschewed logic so prominently as they did with Bane's. Also, the Joker is not the most logical of characters to begin with while Bane is supposed to be precises and a mastermind

That five month plan has got to be one of the worst villainous plans I've ever seen in a movie

Quoted for truth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DACrowe

You mean like Joker assuming that no cop on the prisoner ferry would wire into the GCPD and ask for a bomb squad expert to help disarm the bomb? You mean like Joker assuming the cops would not convince the mayor on grounds of safety to hold Loeb's memorial service at a location without thousands of potentially open windows to the point where they're not looking at the people on the ground as threats? You mean like Joker assuming the chopper will fly at just the right level to hit his wires on the exact street that was needed to bring it down? Like the Joker assuming a cop would stay in the interrogation room with him, so he could be used as a hostage to escape?

Yep, it was only Bane who had to rely on the bad decisions of others to succeed.

Ehhh there was like a hundred barrels rigged to blow up. No bomb squad guy could be reached and then get through a hundred barrels in the 15 minutes they had to blow each other up.

A funeral for a public servant like the police Commissioner is always gonna be held in the open city for the people to mourn him.

That chopper was flying at the same height all the way down the street over the armored car mon ami. The J-man just had his guys set up the trap a few feet ahead of it. Simples.

What makes ya think Joker didn't have other ideas to grab a hostage beside grabbing a Cop guarding him? He could have got anyone to come into that room for any diff reasons. Toilet call. Pretend he was sick after Batman beat the hell outta him. Creative sneaky mind like his woulda had no probs there.

Of course this is all open to opinion, but I find Bane's ideology essentially being a rehash (or so we are to assume) of Ra's to be very boring. While the characterization is fantastic, I don't find him up to par with the main villains of the previous movie because all he can do is beat up Batman. There is no deeper conflict going on than the standard comic book fare. Yes Bane wants to protect Talia, but we are never given a reason why he believes in the League's ideology so much or why he would have a personal vendetta against Gotham/Bruce Wayne

What? Them offering him a purpose and a life beyond the darkness he lived in "until he was a man" wasn't enough for you?

In what regards Bane's plans: if you can suspend your disbelief when it comes to some of Joker's extraordinarily convoluted plans, then I can't see why you can't do the same for Bane's.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Reek

BREAKING NEWS

The Winds of Winter will be released on July 5th. Preorders get the special collectors sleeve of Lady Stoneheart hanging D&D.

Ehhh there was like a hundred barrels rigged to blow up. No bomb squad guy could be reached and then get through a hundred barrels in the 15 minutes they had to blow each other up.

A funeral for a public servant like the police Commissioner is always gonna be held in the open city for the people to mourn him.

That chopper was flying at the same height all the way down the street over the armored car mon ami. The J-man just had his guys set up the trap a few feet ahead of it. Simples.

What makes ya think Joker didn't have other ideas to grab a hostage beside grabbing a Cop guarding him? He could have got anyone to come into that room for any diff reasons. Toilet call. Pretend he was sick after Batman beat the hell outta him. Creative sneaky mind like his woulda had no probs there.

You're making excuses for one and condemning another. How about telling us how the Joker got a hospital wired to explode on every floor, including doorframes, when it's open and full of people 24/7? Or how come GCPD had nobody on call near either location where Rachel and Harvey were held? If the city is in a state of emergency, why not hold the memorial by City Hall which has a clearing?

It is hypocrisy to hold the realism of the movies at different standards.

__________________
"Let us disappoint the Men who are raising themselves upon the ruin of this Country."

Sorry man, but Bane isnt PURELY a physical villain. If you cant see past the plan he has with Talia, and actually look at what he's doing throughout the whole film (as well as his choice in dialogue)..then you probably need to watch the film a few more times.

Ehhh he never said that. That would be a lame excuse for him to believe in everything they do just cos they saved his life. At least with Bruce and Ra's we know why they were justice crusaders.

What's so lame about believing in someone's ideals because they saved your life and took you in for training? Can you imagine how rotten life must've been for Bane growing up in that hellhole of a prison, especially after he gets mutilated? The LoS were the ones who offered him something beyond that and whose ideals are not that hard to reconcile with the perspectives on life Bane must've gained while growing up in prison. Considering the hardships he must've endured living down there all of his life and the ideals of the LoS established in BB, is it really that hard to believe he bought in to their objectives of bringing justice through balance (namely through setting examples by destroying decadent societies)?

As for his hate for Bruce, consider this. In Bane's eyes, Bruce Wayne is probably this rich dude who had everything and was accepted into the League, offered the chance to lead them against Gotham, but refused that chance on a whim. To Bane, who had to save the daughter of the LoS leader by getting mutilated and who lived all his life down a hellhole before even being offered the chance to join the League, Bruce's refusal must've looked like the biggest insult ever. Considering the fact that Bane seems to be this cocky and proud man, it's not that far of a stretch to assume his ego had something to do with the latter line of thinking.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Reek

BREAKING NEWS

The Winds of Winter will be released on July 5th. Preorders get the special collectors sleeve of Lady Stoneheart hanging D&D.

If that makes ya feel better about the plot holes of Rises then that's coolio.

No more than TDK. They mostly have the same plot holes. I don't know how I can make that clearer. It's just I don't care, because they both work as films, though TDK is superior.

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If he can get in there dressed as a nurse than he could so easy have hench guys dressed as nurses, doctors, janitors, orderlies or whatevs and stash explosives all over the place on the sly.

Yes, because anyone can walk into a hospital dressed as a doctor and put explosives everywhere. How did they get them in that doorframe again and in every window fame?

Quote:

Probably because most of 'em were tied up in the Harvey/Batman/Joker fiasco that just happened.

Every one of the THOUSANDS of cop in a whole city was tied up in an affair that lasted about 15 minutes and had about 20 officers on the scene hours before the Joker's declaration?

Quote:

Who said the city was in a state of emergency. That didn't happen until after the J-Man blew up the hospital and the city got evacuated and the National Guard got called in.

"The police is out in force today..." says local newslady. They could have held it in a safer location, but chose not to, thereby making the Joker's plan easier to perform. Especially when he had to have had that location and apartment selected at least weeks before the parade. Like Bane, things have to break perfectly his way countless times.

__________________
"Let us disappoint the Men who are raising themselves upon the ruin of this Country."

What's so lame about believing in someone's ideals because they saved your life and took you in for training? Can you imagine how rotten life must've been for Bane growing up in that hellhole of a prison, especially after he gets mutilated? The LoS were the ones who offered him something beyond that and whose ideals are not that hard to reconcile with the perspectives on life Bane must've gained while growing up in prison. Considering the hardships he must've endured living down there all of his life and the ideals of the LoS established in BB, is it really that hard to believe he bought in to their objectives of bringing justice through balance (namely through setting examples by destroying decadent societies)?

As for his hate for Bruce, consider this. In Bane's eyes, Bruce Wayne is probably this rich dude who had everything and was accepted into the League, offered the chance to lead them against Gotham, but refused that chance on a whim. To Bane, who had to save the daughter of the LoS leader by getting mutilated and who lived all his life down a hellhole before even being offered the chance to join the League, Bruce's refusal must've looked like the biggest insult ever. Considering the fact that Bane seems to be this cocky and proud man, it's not that far of a stretch to assume his ego had something to do with the latter line of thinking.

It's lame because it's a damn stupid reason to believe in a bunch of things as strong as that just cos someone saved your ass. Ya don't know who Bane is or why he was in that pit. All ya know about Bane's past is he was in there for all his life and he liked Talia as a kid.

Why does he want justice, and hate rich people and all the other bull the LOS were babbling in this? Ya never find out.

At least with Ra's ya know why he thinks that way. Ya know based on Joker's scar stories why he has this crazy view about everyone being able to break like he did and go crazy.

Ya had to make up a bunch of conjecture ya never see or hear in the flick to try and justify why he hates Bruce. The movie shoulda given ya some of that instead of you making up fan fiction.

It's lame because it's a damn stupid reason to believe in a bunch of things as strong as that just cos someone saved your ass. Ya don't know who Bane is or why he was in that pit. All ya know about Bane's past is he was in there for all his life and he liked Talia as a kid.

Why does he want justice, and hate rich people and all the other bull the LOS were babbling in this? Ya never find out.

Yes, God forbid I use my head and think of the character's background within the confines of the universe he's a part of. Why couldn't the director just spoon me all that info, eh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fudgie

At least with Ra's ya know why he thinks that way. Ya know based on Joker's scar stories why he has this crazy view about everyone being able to break like he did and go crazy.

Actually, you don't. Because he tells multiple origin tales in an obvious homage to The Killing Joke line 'If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Ya had to make up a bunch of conjecture ya never see or hear in the flick to try and justify why he hates Bruce. The movie shoulda given ya some of that instead of you making up fan fiction.

Oh, you mean BB? Yeah, it actually does detail one essential part of what I said, namely Bruce's rejection of the LoS ideals. But I don't know, maybe we were watching different movies.

__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reek

BREAKING NEWS

The Winds of Winter will be released on July 5th. Preorders get the special collectors sleeve of Lady Stoneheart hanging D&D.

Yes, God forbid I use my head and think of the character's background within the confines of the universe he's a part of. Why couldn't the director just spoon me all that info, eh?

To give the character layers instead of leaving ya to make up a bunch of stuff ya never see or hear in the flick.

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Actually, you don't. Because he tells multiple origin tales in an obvious homage to The Killing Joke line 'If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice'.

If ya read the Killing Joke then ya know that was Joker's reason for trying to break Gordon, too. Some bad crap happened to him, he doesn't remember exactly what it is, but he knows it was a bad day that made him go nuts. So he was gonna prove that's all ya need to go crazy by giving Gordon a bad day.

Same deal with Heath Joker. The scars were the thing that made him go crazy. That's the common thing in both of his scar stories mon ami. So the J-man tries pushing people to the limit to show how easy it is to break people who are good because everyone is corruptible to him. The Bat rubbed that in his face about being wrong about that when the ferry people didn't blown each other to hell.

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Oh, you mean BB? Yeah, it actually does detail one essential part of what I said, namely Bruce's rejection of the LoS ideals. But I don't know, maybe we were watching different movies.

BB didn't mention squat about Bane so yeah we were watching different flicks.