Douggg: First I will let you know that I will not address you by your screen
name because it is false. If you have a personal first name, then let
me know and I will address you accordingly. I just don't want you to
think I am being rude for no reason. I am actually a very friendly
person.

I was debating whether I should respond to this or just ignore it and go straight into the main discussion. But, I just had to respond. Just to let you know in advance, this might get nasty, but it is a result of your words. You asked for it, and you're gonna get it.

Fanatics like you have a deficient methodology of reasoning. You say one thing, and do another. You expose the hypocrisy within yourself.

Case in point: Your little rambling session where you refuse to even address me by the user-name I have chosen shows your self-contradictory nature. I must say, you are the
first fanatic Christian I have come across who didn't even want to
address me by my user-name, and believe me, I have talked to many
fanatics!

You say you are not being rude. Well, where I come from, this is being rude. Not that I care either way. I could care less about your asinine views on Islam. I could care even less about your crazy apocalyptic vision of a narrow-minded God. My interest in even addressing your claims is to expose the hypocrisy and self-contradictory nature of you and your ilk, Douggie.

Douggg: Concering Gomer as being South-eastern Europe, from wikipedia....

It seems to me that the Biblical authors should have been a little more specific, don't you think? They referred to vague geographical localities instead of referring to specific locations. Go figure.

Douggg: Indonesia, Malaysia, Bangladesh, Pakistan will not be involved in
Gog/Magog. The muslims in those countries and elsewhere worldwide
will abandon Islam in the light of what Christians like me are
saying to guys like you, especially for the past 20 years, comes to
pass. And for the same past 20 years, Muslims have denied it.

Wishful thinking Dougggie! Christians have been fantasying about destroying Islam for 14 centuries. Not only have they always failed, but Islam has thrived and spread. InshaAllah, it will always thrive.

Douggg: See, you, like all muslims, cannot accept Ezekiel 38 and 39 for what it
says. Because if Ezekiel 38 and 39 are true - then Islam is a false
religion.

Well, can you blame me? I don't normally believe vague nonsense! You on the other hand believe it!

Douggg: It is not an historic event. It happens in the latter days, Ezekiel
38:8,16. Afterwards, there will be a place called The valley of Hamongog,
the burial place of Gog's army Ezekiel 39:11. Which doesn't exist on
any current or historic map, proving that the event is still future.

You misunderstood. Perhaps you should try to read clearly and not let your emotions get the better of your reason. I was not saying that it was referring to a historical event. I was saying that other confrontations the Israelites may have had with those same nations in the past may explain why the Jewish sages came up with these end-time scenarios involving those very nations. It was a way to condemn them for the actions of their ancestors. Its simple psychology.

Douggg: Well, when I argue with Jews (Judaism), I get frustrated at their
religious beliefs in their rejection of the gospel. Nonetheless,
Israel is God's chosen nation among the nations of the old human race
descended from Adam. It is not what they are now, but what they will
become - Christians, the new human race, in the end, that God defends
them in keeping his promises to their forefathers.

Perhaps that is why the Biblical Jesus was such a racist! Calling the gentiles "dogs"! See, my Lord is not a racist. He loves all nations and wants all nations to follow His laws. He does not prefer one over another. This is an invention of heretics of the past. You and you ilk have betrayed Jesus and worst of all, you have betrayed God. That is why the Quran says that Jesus will testify against you on the Day of Judgment:

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou
say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He
will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say).
Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest
what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in
full all that is hidden. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me
to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness
over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast
the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.
"If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost
forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise."(5:116-118)

You still have time to reverse your blasphemous views on God and Jesus.

Douggg: Back in the garden of eden, all of the future human race was "in Adam"
when he disobeyed and became a "sinner. Thus, all of the human race
descended from Adam are "sinners". In Jesus, God put the entirety of
the human race of sinners past, present, future - and put all of them
to death on the cross - "in Jesus". For that reason, Jesus in the nt
is called "the last Adam". Meaning that all of the human race
descended from Adam was put "in him".

Pure nonsense! Every person is responsible for his/her own sins. We don't "inherit" sin. We choose it ourselves. Ponder on the wisdom of the Quran a bit and open your eyes and ears:

(It will be said to him:) "Read thine (own) record: Sufficient
is thy soul this day to make out an account against thee." Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who
goeth astray doth so to his own loss: No bearer of burdens can bear the
burden of another: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent a
messenger (to give warning). (17:14-15)

Adam and Eve committed a sin. They were responsible for it, not us. We are responsible for our own sins. The nonsense of "original sin" betrays the fairness and justice of God. Douggg: But being so crucified "in Christ", also "in Christ" all are raised a
new human race when Jesus came back alive. Thus, Jesus is called the
"second man" in the new testament. The new human race are saints "in
Christ", not sinners, and are called Christians, those who have
received the gospel of having been crucified and raised with Jesus.

Perhaps you can answer a question I posed to the Christians here. I never got a response.

If Jesus' mission was to die for our sins, why did he not just kill
himself? Or arrange for some accident to occur? Would that not be the
same as being crucified, as long as the result was death? And
what about the ones who killed him (allegedly)? Are they not the
greatest heroes in the world? I mean, come on, they basically ensured
that Jesus' mission would be a success. If they had not decided to
kill him, then he could not die for our sins and therefore none of us
would get saved. So, the people who did kill him are heroes because
they allowed for the mission to succeed and ensured that all who
believed would go to Heaven.

Douggg: Your religion, inspired by Satan, denies both the crucifixion and the
resurrection.... because by the death and resurrection, which "in
Jesus" we share, men are borne again neither Jew nor Gentile but a new
creation, set free from the old human race of sinners.

You're dang right it denies that nonsense. Satan really worked one on you didn't he? Persuading you to worship a mere man? That Satan, what a trickster!

Douggg: Likewise, Satan attempts to destroy Israel to prevent the promises of
God made to the Jews from coming true. Eventually, all of Israel will
become saints, i.e Christians. Open your eyes to the news. Islam
wants Israel destroyed. Islam wants Christians to deny Jesus's
crucifixion and resurrection. But in Ezekiel 38 and 39, it is
Islam, the muslim countries that God chooses to destroy.

Israel was created at the expence of hundreds of thousands of innocent people. That is why many Muslims are against Israel. It is a matter of justice. There are many Jews who also criticize Israel. There are also many Christians who criticize Zionist Christians such as yourself and your perverted view of God's justice and fairness. The world doesn't revolve around Israel, Dougggie. Its much too big.

Edited by islamispeace - 12 July 2009 at 1:55pm

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

Douggg: First I will let you know that I will not address you by your screen
name because it is false. If you have a personal first name, then let
me know and I will address you accordingly. I just don't want you to
think I am being rude for no reason. I am actually a very friendly
person.

I was debating whether I should respond to this or just ignore it and go straight into the main discussion. But, I just had to respond. Just to let you know in advance, this might get nasty, but it is a result of your words. You asked for it, and you're gonna get it.

Fanatics like you have a deficient methodology of reasoning. You say one thing, and do another. You expose the hypocrisy within yourself.

Case in point: Your little rambling session where you refuse to even address me by the user-name I have chosen shows your self-contradictory nature. I must say, you are the
first fanatic Christian I have come across who didn't even want to
address me by my user-name, and believe me, I have talked to many
fanatics!

You say you are not being rude. Well, where I come from, this is being rude. Not that I care either way. I could care less about your asinine views on Islam. I could care even less about your crazy apocalyptic vision of a narrow-minded God. My interest in even addressing your claims is to expose the hypocrisy and self-contradictory nature of you and your ilk, Douggie.

You may call me Douggg or Doug or Doug L. Do you have a personal name that I can call you by?

Douggg: Concering Gomer as being South-eastern Europe, from wikipedia....

Christian countries do not chant "death to Israel". They have no reason to invade Israel.

Douggg: The celts, from that link you provided, as distant descendants do not count.

Why not? Because you say so? It seems to me that if all those nations are descended from Noah's sons, then descent plays an important role.

The celts are very distant from Gomer. If a person wanted to conitinue that line of reasoning, the celts settled in England, and from England, the English populated America and Australia - but it would irrational to say that America and Australia are Gomer, would it not?

Douggg: Also, from wilkepedia....Kingdom of Kush (Cush),
an ancient nation in northeastern Africa comprising large areas within
present-day Egypt and Sudan Egypt and Sudan are Muslim.

It seems to me that the Biblical authors should have been a little more specific, don't you think? They referred to vague geographical localities instead of referring to specific locations. Go figure.

Persia, one of the countries listed, should be pretty easy for you to figure out.

Douggg: Indonesia, Malaysia, Bangladesh, Pakistan will not be involved in
Gog/Magog. The muslims in those countries and elsewhere worldwide
will abandon Islam in the light of what Christians like me are
saying to guys like you, especially for the past 20 years, comes to
pass. And for the same past 20 years, Muslims have denied it.

Wishful thinking Dougggie! Christians have been fantasying about destroying Islam for 14 centuries. Not only have they always failed, but Islam has thrived and spread. InshaAllah, it will always thrive.

In Ezekiel 38-39, it is God who destroys the Russian and Muslim invaders, not the Christians or Jews.

Douggg: See, you, like all muslims, cannot accept Ezekiel 38 and 39 for what it
says. Because if Ezekiel 38 and 39 are true - then Islam is a false
religion.

Well, can you blame me? I don't normally believe vague nonsense! You on the other hand believe it!

Ezekiel 38-39 is nonsense? It was written 1,000 years before Islam. It is timed when Israel has returned to the land from being scattered around the world, and in the latter days, Ezekiel 38:8. So why is that vague?

All you have to do is to consider that it is Islam that wants to destroy Israel. Is is not rocket science.

Douggg: It is not an historic event. It happens in the latter days, Ezekiel
38:8,16. Afterwards, there will be a place called The valley of Hamongog,
the burial place of Gog's army Ezekiel 39:11. Which doesn't exist on
any current or historic map, proving that the event is still future.

You misunderstood. Perhaps you should try to read clearly and not let your emotions get the better of your reason. I was not saying that it was referring to a historical event. I was saying that other confrontations the Israelites may have had with those same nations in the past may explain why the Jewish sages came up with these end-time scenarios involving those very nations. It was a way to condemn them for the actions of their ancestors. Its simple psychology.

Are you admitting that if Ezekiel 38-39 are true, then Islam is a false religion?It seems to me that why you are trying to discredit the verses.

Douggg: Well, when I argue with Jews (Judaism), I get frustrated at their
religious beliefs in their rejection of the gospel. Nonetheless,
Israel is God's chosen nation among the nations of the old human race
descended from Adam. It is not what they are now, but what they will
become - Christians, the new human race, in the end, that God defends
them in keeping his promises to their forefathers.

Perhaps that is why the Biblical Jesus was such a racist! Calling the gentiles "dogs"! See, my Lord is not a racist. He loves all nations and wants all nations to follow His laws. He does not prefer one over another. This is an invention of heretics of the past. You and you ilk have betrayed Jesus and worst of all, you have betrayed God. That is why the Quran says that Jesus will testify against you on the Day of Judgment:

I have given you tangible proof that Islam is a false religion by God's judgment against Isalm forth coming when Ezekiel 38-39 takes place. Which will be most likely either this fall or the fall of 2010.

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou
say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He
will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say).
Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest
what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in
full all that is hidden. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me
to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness
over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast
the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.
"If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost
forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise."(5:116-118)

You still have time to reverse your blasphemous views on God and Jesus.

Why would anyone want to become an "antichrist"?

Douggg: Back in the garden of eden, all of the future human race was "in Adam"
when he disobeyed and became a "sinner. Thus, all of the human race
descended from Adam are "sinners". In Jesus, God put the entirety of
the human race of sinners past, present, future - and put all of them
to death on the cross - "in Jesus". For that reason, Jesus in the nt
is called "the last Adam". Meaning that all of the human race
descended from Adam was put "in him".

Pure nonsense! Every person is responsible for his/her own sins. We don't "inherit" sin. We choose it ourselves. Ponder on the wisdom of the Quran a bit and open your eyes and ears:

Everyone is responsible for their choices regarding sin, agreed. But those choices are affected by the sin nature inherited from Adam's flesh, which draws men toward sinning.

(It will be said to him:) "Read thine (own) record: Sufficient
is thy soul this day to make out an account against thee." Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who
goeth astray doth so to his own loss: No bearer of burdens can bear the
burden of another: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent a
messenger (to give warning). (17:14-15)

Adam and Eve committed a sin. They were responsible for it, not us. We are responsible for our own sins. The nonsense of "original sin" betrays the fairness and justice of God.

But the human race inherited the results of Adam's sin. We all are Adam's flesh<<<<< do you agree with that sentence?

Douggg: But being so crucified "in Christ", also "in Christ" all are raised a
new human race when Jesus came back alive. Thus, Jesus is called the
"second man" in the new testament. The new human race are saints "in
Christ", not sinners, and are called Christians, those who have
received the gospel of having been crucified and raised with Jesus.

Perhaps you can answer a question I posed to the Christians here. I never got a response.

If Jesus' mission was to die for our sins, why did he not just kill
himself? Or arrange for some accident to occur? Would that not be the
same as being crucified, as long as the result was death? And
what about the ones who killed him (allegedly)? Are they not the
greatest heroes in the world? I mean, come on, they basically ensured
that Jesus' mission would be a success. If they had not decided to
kill him, then he could not die for our sins and therefore none of us
would get saved. So, the people who did kill him are heroes because
they allowed for the mission to succeed and ensured that all who
believed would go to Heaven.

Douggg: Your religion, inspired by Satan, denies both the crucifixion and the
resurrection.... because by the death and resurrection, which "in
Jesus" we share, men are borne again neither Jew nor Gentile but a new
creation, set free from the old human race of sinners.

You're dang right it denies that nonsense. Satan really worked one on you didn't he? Persuading you to worship a mere man? That Satan, what a trickster!

I worship God, the Alpha and Omega, who came into this world to save me.

Douggg: Likewise, Satan attempts to destroy Israel to prevent the promises of
God made to the Jews from coming true. Eventually, all of Israel will
become saints, i.e Christians. Open your eyes to the news. Islam
wants Israel destroyed. Islam wants Christians to deny Jesus's
crucifixion and resurrection. But in Ezekiel 38 and 39, it is
Islam, the muslim countries that God chooses to destroy.

Israel was created at the expence of hundreds of thousands of innocent people. That is why many Muslims are against Israel. It is a matter of justice. There are many Jews who also criticize Israel. There are also many Christians who criticize Zionist Christians such as yourself and your perverted view of God's justice and fairness. The world doesn't revolve around Israel, Dougggie. Its much too big.

Very strange comment you make considering that Israel is in the news everyday.

Zechariah 3:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem
a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be
in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a brudensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

islamispeace wrote:
=====
Pure nonsense! Every person is responsible for his/her own sins. We don't "inherit" sin. We choose it ourselves. Ponder on the wisdom of the Quran a bit and open your eyes and ears:

(It will be said to him:) "Read thine (own) record: Sufficient is thy soul this day to make out an account against thee." Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent a messenger (to give warning). (17:14-15)

Adam and Eve committed a sin. They were responsible for it, not us. We are responsible for our own sins. The nonsense of "original sin" betrays the fairness and justice of God.
=======

Semar wrote:
I agree 100%, modern law also can not accept "original sin" concept. This is one of many christianity ridiculous concept, no wonder chistianity for centuries struggle so much to make this concept make sense, because it is nonsense. Imagine innocent Michael Jackson's very young children have to pay their father debt.

Dough, do you think it is fair michael Jackson's children have to pay their father debt? Or Bernard Madoff grand children have to go to jail because their grand father can not "pay" in full 150 years jail time.

Edited by semar - 13 July 2009 at 1:58am

Salam/Peace,
Semar
The Prophet said: "Do not eat before you are hungry, and stop eating before you are full"
"1/3 of your stomach for food 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"

TNC agree 100%, modern law also can not accept "original sin" concept. Imagine innocent Michael Jackson's young children have to pay their father debt.

Dough, do you think it is fair michael Jackson's children to pay their father debt?

Hi semar,

No, I do not think it is fair that MJ's children pay their father's debt. I think that creditors can sue the estate though. Even so, I understand the particular principle that you are making.

btw, under the terms of the original Mt. Sinai Covenant, God said (paraphrased) that if the Children of Israel got into idol worship, that He would visit their sin on the third and fourth generation. Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself
to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God,
visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third
and fourth generation of them that hate me;

As it turned out, Israel did get in to idol worship, and during Ezekiel's time, God kept to His word and the children of the fathers who sinned were suffering accordingly. So much so, that they began defaming God with a proverb...

Ezekiel 18:2 What mean ye, that ye use
this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have
eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?

3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.

What God did in Ezekiel 18 was to change the terms of the Mt. Sinai covenant whereby everyone under the covenant would be judged according to their own sins. I would suggest that you briefly read through that chapter. Judaism uses that chapter as part of their basis for eternal life being based upon their works. However, that is not what the chapter is about. It is about God's judgment on persons under the Mt. Sinai covenant in this life, as can be seen from these closing verses of Ezekiel 18:

30 Therefore I will judge
you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord
GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so
iniquity shall not be your ruin.

31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have
transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will
ye die, O house of Israel?

32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Okay, back to us inheriting a sin nature from Adam. I will agree with you that you and I did not choose to eat from the forbidden tree. In fact, we aren't even given a choice...right? But Adam was given a choice and did. We cannot undo what Adam chose. We are stuck with the results, nonetheless.

Resulting from choosing to eat from the forbidden tree, Adam's nature changed. "the man is become" as one of us, to know good and evil. Genesis 3:

22 And the LORD God said,
Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now,
lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat,
and live for ever:

23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Now you say that we are each responsible for our own sin. However, in the case of Adam, all of future humanity was "in him". You and I are not allowed to enter the garden of eden....even though you and I didn't commit the sin of eating from the forbidden tree... but we are blocked because of Adam's sin.

So in that way, see how Adam's sin has impacted us? Not only are you and I blocked from the garden of eden, but we inherit Adam's changed nature as well. As a result, we do both good and evil (sin).

What I would like to ask you is this.... where did you get your body? Adam's body was formed directly from the dust of the earth. But our bodies are not.... because they are Adam's body, his flesh, extended down generation to generation through the process of procreation. Our flesh is not like Adam's flesh... it is Adam's flesh!

All of humanity was "in Adam", and we inherited his "changed" nature, evident from Genesis 3:22 above, to know good and evil. I agree with you that you and I are responsible for the acts of sins we commit. But we inherit a "sin nature", not out of choice, but by being born into the human race descended from Adam.

The term "original sin" is somewhat misleading. It should be the "sin nature" that we inherit which is a result of Adam eating from the forbidden tree.

If our flesh is Adam's flesh, then what about our soul? Our souls, we do not inherit from Adam, our souls are each individually created.... and joined to Adam's flesh in the womb or at birth (as there are various opinions). Nonetheless, when our pure soul created in the image of God is joined to Adam's flesh which the sin nature resides - the soul becomes defiled. Unfortunately that is the power of sin. And that is why both body and soul must be redeemed.

God's way to redeem us, is to recreate us body and soul, by putting us to death "in Jesus" on the cross, and resurrecting us "in Jesus" in his resurrection - as a new creation.

Christians experience our souls being redeemed by accepting God's recreation by way of the cross and resurrection to the new life.

It is the promised new bodies, not of Adam's flesh, but of supernatural substance, that Christians await and look forward to, which redeems our current mortal bodies replaced with supnatural incorruptible bodies to join with our "already" redeemed spotless souls.

One of the signs that Christians know for certain that the redemption of our bodies is at hand, is the nearness of the prophecies of Ezekiel 38 and 39 to be fulfilled. Muslims of course deny that Ezekiel 38 could be talking about them.

Jews, have their own take, and see Ezekiel 38 and 39 as a clash between western Christianity (edom in their view) and the Muslim nations, and in the aftermath their moshiach will arrive. Yes, many of the Jews believe that. Which, as far as their (Judaism's) moshiach, I believe as well, but their messiah will turn out to be the Antichrist, something that they are not counting on.

Douggg: "Christian countries do not chant "death to Israel". They have no reason to invade Israel."

Yeah, because they have no interest in defending the Palestinians. They don't care about the Palestinians. The point is that the purported prophecy is vague. Gomer can apply to so many nations, because it is a vague term for South-east Europe. How different are these prophecies from the vague ramblings of Nostradamus?

Douggg: "The celts are very distant from Gomer. If a person wanted to
conitinue that line of reasoning, the celts settled in England, and
from England, the English populated America and Australia - but it would irrational to say that America and Australia are Gomer, would it not?"Why not? Its all about where they descended from. If they have some good old Gomer blood in them, then as far as the prophecy is concerned, they should play a role. The point is once again, the prophecy is vague and can be interpreted in many ways. Go figure.

Douggg: "Persia, one of the countries listed, should be pretty easy for you to figure out."

That still doesn't solve the vagueness of the other nations, does it? Cush could be Ethiopia or Sudan. The point is the prophecy does not specify. Go figure.

Douggg: "In Ezekiel 38-39, it is God who destroys the Russian and Muslim invaders, not the Christians or Jews."

But, it is the Christians who interpret it that way, and that is directly a result of their centuries long hatred of Islam. They have always fantasized about seeing Islam being destroyed. Like I said before, you have betrayed God, so you have no right to speak on His behalf.

Douggg: "Ezekiel 38-39 is nonsense? It was written 1,000 years before Islam.
It is timed when Israel has returned to the land from being scattered
around the world, and in the latter days, Ezekiel 38:8. So why is
that vague?"

Hello? See above.

Douggg: "All you have to do is to consider that it is Islam that wants to destroy Israel. Is is not rocket science."

Because Israel first stole the land from the Palestinians and now continues to oppress them. Since the Palestinians are mostly Muslim, it is no surprise that the Muslim world is highly critical of Israel and that some elements within want Israel destroyed. But it is not only Muslims who believe this. There are many Jews who believe Israel should not exist. There are many Christians who are critical of Israel's policies against the Palestinians and also critical of Zionist Christians who blindly support Israel so that their apocalyptic fantasies can be "fulfilled". Its almost a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Douggg: "Are you admitting that if Ezekiel 38-39 are true, then Islam is a false religion? It seems to me that why you are trying to discredit the verses. "

No. If your particular interpretation is correct (which I don't believe), and that is how it will happen, of course, it would mean that Islam is a false religion. Of course, I don't believe it will play out that way. Like I said, God is just and fair. Your version of Him betrays His eternal justice.

From the point of view of Islam, it is Christianity which will be proven to be a false religion. The Islamic sources foretell Jesus' return and how he will abolish Christianity. Would you admit that if those sources are true, then Christianity is a false religion?

Douggg: "I have given you tangible proof that Islam is a false religion by God's
judgment against Isalm forth coming when Ezekiel 38-39 takes place.
Which will be most likely either this fall or the fall of 2010."

When will you fanatics learn? You clowns have been predicting the end times for centuries and are always proven wrong in the end. Can you recall learning about the "great disappointment" in your history class? Take some lessons from that. Even the Biblical Jesus did not know when all these events would play out, if at all.

I also noticed how you ignored how I proved that the Biblical version of God is a racist. That is one of the many proofs that much of the Bible is not from God. Some is, but a lot of it is not. The God of Islam is not a racist.

Douggg: "Why would anyone want to become an "antichrist"?"

I sure wouldn't! But, you seem to like it!

Douggg: "Everyone is responsible for their choices regarding sin, agreed. But
those choices are affected by the sin nature inherited from Adam's
flesh, which draws men toward sinning."

No. The choices are affected by the fact that we have the freedom to choose. Its called free-will, Dougggie! Sin is not a genetic problem!

Douggg: "But the human race inherited the results of Adam's sin. We all are
Adam's flesh<<<<< do you agree with that sentence?"

1. If Jesus' mission was to die for our sins, why did he not just kill
himself?

2. Or arrange for some accident to occur?

3. Would that not be the
same as being crucified, as long as the result was death?

4. And
what about the ones who killed him (allegedly)? Are they not the
greatest heroes in the world? I mean, come on, they basically ensured
that Jesus' mission would be a success. If they had not decided to
kill him, then he could not die for our sins and therefore none of us
would get saved. So, the people who did kill him are heroes because
they allowed for the mission to succeed and ensured that all who
believed would go to Heaven.

Douggg: "I worship God, the Alpha and Omega, who came into this world to save me."

Yeah, the same guy who prayed (...to someone!), was tempted by the devil, went to the bathroom and didn't know when the end would come! Some "god".

Douggg: "ery strange comment you make considering that Israel is in the news everyday.

Zechariah 3:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem
a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be
in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

3
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a brudensome stone for all
people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces,
though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it."

So is Michael Jackson! What does that mean?

Israel is in the news because of the ongoing Palestinian-Israeli conflict. That is the source of all the problems and the tension between it and the Islamic world, which is concerned about the plight of the Palestinians. Its also political. But, we Muslims are also watching Chechnya, Kashmir, Iraq, Afghanistan and now China. Why? Because our brothers and sisters are suffering at the hands of opressors, many of which are Christian.

Edited by islamispeace - 14 July 2009 at 3:30pm

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

tell me this, which of the following best discribes christians?also which of the following " would be given" a place in the temple? surly not #1 . a "non jew" would never have a place in the temple. maybe # 3 wait mormons weren't around then. ok how about #4 would the heathens be "given" a place in the temple no i don't think so. the only ones below who have been "GIVEN" a place in the temple are#2 the christians.

2. somebody Christian: a Christian, as distinguished from somebody who is Jewish

3. non-Mormon: in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, somebody who is not a member of this Church

4. heathen: a disbeliever in God ( disapproving )

so with that understood it's quit clear who the below is refering to:

Revelation 11

1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there.

2But exclude the outer court; ,do not measure it because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

going by the definition above it seems the above verses are impling that the christians , "who are the gentile followers of jesus "are the ones this outer court has been given. but then would be dinied or exclude at the end.

why would god exclude the gentile followers who this outer court has been given?............. false worship!!!

what would be this "false" worship? THE OUTER COURT is a clue.

what took place there? any idea?

i know what took place in the outer court. this was the place of the "SACRIFICE OF ATONEMENT"

This is where someone would PASS THIER SINS ONTO AN ANIMAL THEN KILL THE ANIMAL . THIER SINS WOULD DIE WITH THE ANIMAL THUS CLEANSING THEMSELVES OF THIER SINS WITH THE BLOOD OF ANOTHER. THE SAME THING CHRISTIANS DO WITH JESUS. WHY????

did not jesus say on the cross " FORGIVE THEM THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO!"

BUT IT SEEMS THE CHRISTIANS CLAIM " YES WE DO! PASS ME THAT HAMMER AND SOME NAILS." why do you claim this? you slap jesus in the face and contridict his very statement.

also Ezekiel 38. at the time of ezekiel islam, muslims did not exsist. the countries in question were pagan at this time.

so i guess you could say god did distroy these countries. and replaced them with islam and gods word.

also please go to a library and read a good book on human history, and also the Qu'ran.

when you do you'll find who realy persecuted the jews.

1] after the " church" came to power it was the christians who banished the jews from thier homeland and distroyed thier places of worship.

2] it was the christians who practiced geniside on the jews in spain and france.

now on the other hand:

1] it was the muslims who protected and invited the jews

back after they ended christian rule. oh yes they also invited the christians back too.

the muslims REBUILT synogogs for the jews along with christian churches.

2] during the time of the inqusitions it was the muslims who gave the jews in spain shelter and protection from the evil of the church.

and after the church was though with the inquisitions it started " THE BURNING TIMES" .

any WOMAN who could "think freely"was burned as witches.

READ THE QU'AN

if you do you'll find it is stated that the isrealites have the right to what was promissed them. { a place to live in peace and safety which the muslims provided.}

please note that a jew is an isrealite . but an isrealite is not always a "jew".

also you stated islam must be in the "REVELATION" I AGREE!

Matthew 21:43 (King James Version)

43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof

John 4:21

21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.

Revelation 3:12 (King James Version)

12Him that overcometh{ Muhammad} will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out{this means he will not return thus not jesus}: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which isnewJerusalem{ MECCA }, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. {ALLAH }.

YOU SEE THE TRUE CHURCH OF JESUS IS NOT THE ONE THAT COMES IN HIS NAME. BUT GODS......... IN THE NAME OF ALLAH!!!

also this

BELOW SPEAKS OF MUHAMMAD AND THE MUSLIMS

there once was an army in recorded history that went into battle dessed in pure white linen. THE MUSLIM ARMY during the " GOLDEN AGE OF ISLAM ".

Revelation 19:11-19 (New International Version)

The Rider on the White Horse

11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. {a name unknown to history} 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. {THIS IS MUHAMMAD} 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.{ THE MUSLAIM ARMY } 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations.{ THE QU'RAN } "He will rule them with an iron scepter[meaning the everlasting good news]." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. {THIS MEANS " IN THE NAME OF GOD"AS IN TIMOTHY 6:15 "God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords".}

17And I saw an angel st anding in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great."

19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.

we also see that there is a contradiction here. in verse 12 it states "He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself." and yet in verse 16 the "name" written on him is now clear and understandable{ now meaning jesus}. something was lost here the "church" did not want people to know.

also jesus states in his own words "I HAVE NOT COME TO JUDGE THE WORLD BUT TO SAVE IT" so much for verse 11.

IN THE BIBLE GOD never, ever makes a covenent with "THE GENTILE NATION"

Matthew 21:43 (King James Version)

43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you,and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof

there are only two nations in the bible god himself has deemed as GREAT ,that of ISHMAEL and of ISAAC.

the covenent with isaac is over dead!

Hebrews 8:13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.4:155 (Y. Ali) (They have incurred divine displeasure): In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of Allah; that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah's Word; we need no more)";- Nay, Allah hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe;-

8:56 (Y. Ali) They are those with whom thou didst make a covenant, but they break their covenant every time, and they have not the fear (of Allah..

9:77 (Y. Ali) So He hath put as a consequence hypocrisy into their hearts, (to last) till the Day, whereon they shall meet Him: because they broke theircovenantwith Allah, and because they lied (again and again).

5:14 (Y. Ali)From those, too, who call themselves christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.

Douggg: "Are you admitting that if Ezekiel 38-39 are true, then Islam is a false religion? It seems to me that why you are trying to discredit the verses. "

No. If your particular interpretation is correct (which I don't believe), and that is how it will happen, of course, it would mean that Islam is a false religion. Of course, I don't believe it will play out that way. Like I said, God is just and fair. Your version of Him betrays His eternal justice.

From the point of view of Islam, it is Christianity which will be proven to be a false religion. The Islamic sources foretell Jesus' return and how he will abolish Christianity. Would you admit that if those sources are true, then Christianity is a false religion?

Hi Mr X, We can agree that Christianity and Islam are incompatible, one or the other is true, but not both.

The reason I can not respond to your proposal.... "The Islamic sources foretell Jesus' return and how he will abolish
Christianity. Would you admit that if those sources are true, then
Christianity is a false religion?"....is because it is not a common text to both faiths. Regarding Ezekiel 38 and 39, I am assuming that Muslims consider the text valid - although they would not agree with my interpretation. So Ezekiel 38 and 39 would be common text to both religions. Is that a correct assumption that I am making?

Douggg: "I have given you tangible proof that Islam is a false religion by God's
judgment against Isalm forth coming when Ezekiel 38-39 takes place.
Which will be most likely either this fall or the fall of 2010."

When will you fanatics learn? You clowns have been predicting the end times for centuries and are always proven wrong in the end. Can you recall learning about the "great disappointment" in your history class? Take some lessons from that. Even the Biblical Jesus did not know when all these events would play out, if at all.

Jesus gave prophecy after prophecy plus Revelation to John. He also gave the parable of the fig tree. Applying the understanding of that parable... May 14, 1948+70 years = May 14, 2018, not later than. Not later than May 14,2018, Jesus will return to this earth. Subtracting 7 years for the tribulation period under the Antichrist, May 14, 2018 - 7 = May 14, 2011. No later than May 14, 2011, the Antichrist will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant with the Jews. Just before then - whatever date it turns out to be - Gog/Magog will take place.Meaning that Gog/Magog will take place not later than May 14, 2011.

I also noticed how you ignored how I proved that the Biblical version of God is a racist. That is one of the many proofs that much of the Bible is not from God. Some is, but a lot of it is not. The God of Islam is not a racist.

I didn't think it was worthy of a response. Recall what Jesus said of the Roman officer who sought Jesus's help in healing his servant?

Douggg: "Why would anyone want to become an "antichrist"?"

I sure wouldn't! But, you seem to like it!

An antichrist is someone who denies the Father and Son. Islam is very much antichrist, and exhibits the spirit of Antichrist. Many Christians think that the Muslim Mahdi will be the Antichrist. However, I do not. I just don't think that the Muslim end times prophecies will play out.

Douggg: "Everyone is responsible for their choices regarding sin, agreed. But
those choices are affected by the sin nature inherited from Adam's
flesh, which draws men toward sinning."

No. The choices are affected by the fact that we have the freedom to choose. Its called free-will, Dougggie! Sin is not a genetic problem!

Oh yeah, sure, that's why your body is not going to grow old and die. I don't know how the sin nature is contained in Adam's flesh - just that it is.

Douggg: "But the human race inherited the results of Adam's sin. We all are
Adam's flesh<<<<< do you agree with that sentence?"

Nonsense! We sprang forth from Adam's loins.

What do you think that means? God does not create each of our bodies from scratch like He did with Adam. We are Adam's flesh, continued down through time.

1. If Jesus' mission was to die for our sins, why did he not just kill
himself?

2. Or arrange for some accident to occur?

3. Would that not be the
same as being crucified, as long as the result was death?

I did answer your question, but you did not like it. The reason Jesus was crucified was to draw all men to him. Jesus himself said so. He also said, in John 3....

14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

A person must be familiar with the episode of the brazen serpent in the Tanach to understand the significance, as to why God chose the way of the cross as the means of Jesus's death.

4. And
what about the ones who killed him (allegedly)? Are they not the
greatest heroes in the world? I mean, come on, they basically ensured
that Jesus' mission would be a success. If they had not decided to
kill him, then he could not die for our sins and therefore none of us
would get saved. So, the people who did kill him are heroes because
they allowed for the mission to succeed and ensured that all who
believed would go to Heaven.

That is a silly waste of my time argument.

Israel is in the news because of the ongoing Palestinian-Israeli conflict. That is the source of all the problems and the tension between it and the Islamic world, which is concerned about the plight of the Palestinians. Its also political. But, we Muslims are also watching Chechnya, Kashmir, Iraq, Afghanistan and now China. Why? Because our brothers and sisters are suffering at the hands of opressors, many of which are Christian.

I would say that Islam is the source of all the problems in the middle east.

Once Islam is destroyed, the rest of the world will rejoice.

btw, I don't think the borne again Christians will be around to see Islam destroyed upon the mountains and valleys in Israel because of the rapture. Of course if the borne-again Christians were raptured out of this world, that might give the Muslim countries the green light to attack Israel, since the U.S. 's support of Israel comes primarily from the borne-again Christians.

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