Dispelling a Few Myths About Raiding (and how to Yor’Shaj in LFR)64 comments

I have had the opportunity over the past week of participating in three separate, completely PuG, Looking For Raid Dragon Souls. One on each of my three alt healers (Shaman, Paladin, Second Druid). I had two fairly good experiences and one pretty terrible experience (let’s just suffice it to say that I probably won’t run LFR on a Friday night again, as I clearly don’t have the fortitude to deal with the 13-17 crowd). There were a few fairly disturbing trends that I noticed happening in all three groups that I feel should be addressed – as I’m worried that people either have the perception that this is what raiding is about or will start to think that these are acceptable raiding behaviors.

As such, let’s go through a few of the things that I saw with alarming regularity and attempt to dispel some seemingly popular misconceptions about raiding, at least as they are evidenced by the general population participating in LFR:

Telling everyone that they are fucking morons and are terrible (or some similar insult) when something doesn’t go as planned or they die. I cannot tell you how many times I saw this exact behavior. However, I think it’s important to state that the vast majority of raiders don’t tolerate being berated like this and the large majority of raid leaders do not treat their raid like this. It’s not productive. It doesn’t solve anything. And generally speaking it just makes people think that you are an asshole.

Leaving the raid after the boss you wanted loot from doesn’t drop your loot. I have no clue why people find this acceptable – perhaps it’s the complete lack of accountability present in LFR/LFD. However, in actual raids, this does not happen. Ever. In fact, receiving the upgrade that you’d like from a boss is more of an exception than it is the rule when raiding. Pulling a stunt like this on a raid team would lead to your removal to the raid before you could say “I didn’t get my loot”. If gear is the sole reason that you are raiding, then you are doing it wrong. Gear is a tool. It is what lets you push onto the next challenge. It’s fluid and it comes and goes. It’s actually kind of sad how many people don’t seem to understand this concept and think that raiding is solely about having better purple pixels than someone else.

Leaving the raid when you wipe…once. Guess what folks, when learning new raid content you wipe. Often you wipe a lot. Most raiders look at needing to spend time learning a new boss as a challenge. It is perfectly okay to need to take a few pulls to solve a mechanic. It is perfectly okay for someone who has never seen the fight before to need a pull to be up to speed. Wiping is just as much a part of raiding as nerd screams and dragons filled with purples. If you cannot tolerate wiping, then it is quite likely that you do not have the patience to raid. And, frankly, if you were a member of my raid and left after wiping – you’d be looking for a new raid team.

Leaving the raid when you get to a hard boss that the raid is likely to wipe on (I’m look at youYor’shaj). Again, this is something that ties in with the point above and I feel deserves to be repeated: Wiping is just as much a part of raiding as nerd screams and dragons filled with purples. It’s okay to wipe to a boss that offers some challenge. In fact, it’s okay to be challenged. People who want to raid seriously do not turn, tuck their tails and run away at the first sign of a challenge. Raiding is often times hard work. It’s dedication, it’s devotion and it’s sticking it out when things are hard.

Thinking that you can just pull a boss and everyone will know what to do without explanation (especially in a PuG). This is new content. You have a system to help introduce people to raiding. What on earth makes people think that it isn’t worth the time to take 5 minutes to explain a fight and that raid teams do not do this? Especially one with more complex mechanics (like Yor’shaj). I raid with a team of extremely skilled and educated players – and I’ll still take the time during our raids to give a brief overview of how we built our strategy for the encounter. You can’t expect 25 people to be on the same page unless you offer that page up for review. You know what I’ve found? Explaining why and the order in which you need to kill slimes on Yor’shaj leads to a very smooth kill. Explaining the kill priority for Mana Voids and Adds means that those things die as needed. Explaining how to navigate an ice wall on Hagara means that you enter the next phase with 1-2 dead instead of half the raid. Explaining out to overload crystals means that the phase can be executed just as smoothly with 25 pugs as it can in my main raid. Taking the time to make sure everyone knows what is happening is the single most important thing that you can do to ensure success in a raid.

I am sure I could add about a ten more things to this list, but these five were the biggest offenders that I saw consistently throughout the course of my 3 completely PuG Looking for Raid Experiences. And it worried me. A lot. If people’s first experience with raiding is through the LFR system, and they think that this is what raiding is all about, what kinds of attitudes are people going to have when they decide to take the next step up and join a progression oriented raid team? I think it’s something to think about.

How to Yor’Shaj in LFR

On a somewhat similar note to above, I cannot tell you how many times my LFR group got to Yor’shaj and the group just churned as people left before even pulling the boss. Or how many people left when someone pulled two trash packs, or the group didn’t kill the blue slime in the trash pack first, or…well, the list could go on forever. I successfully lead to very clean kills on this boss in LFR (and would have done a third but for that Friday night group full of some of the most disrespectful people I’ve ever encountered in the game). So I thought that I’d Clarify a few things for people on how to deal with this boss in LFR in hopes that it will help to educate people (although I am sadly aware that many in need of this education won’t read this to begin with).

So, without further ado, let’s talk about Yor’shaj in LFR!

You do not need to kill the green slime in LFR. You just don’t. You do not need to spread out when you get the green slime in LFR. The mechanics of the green slime in LFR are vastly different than that in the 10/25 version of the encounter. The green slime doesn’t splash in LFR, and the damage that it does is negligible and easily healed. The green slime is one of the least difficult slimes. Do not let anyone tell you different, it’s just not true.

You slime kill order should always be: Purple, Yellow, Black. (Contrary to what someone tried to tell me on Friday night – you do not need to kill Blue first. And yes, I was called a fucking worthless idiot multiple times for stating that you do not need to kill blue). Purple will still put a healing debuff on the raid. Yellow will still cause extra raid damage. Black still spawns adds. If your raid follows the Purple, Yellow, Black paradigm (and the raid executes) this is a fairly simple encounter to navigate. As long as it’s clearly communicated and everyone move to the same ooze – the oozes are generally a non-issue. It’s when there is confusion and someone doesn’t call out each time that there are problems with the ooze (or you have multiple people giving conflicting information – see blue ooze guy who every time I made a call spammed about how terrible I was and that people should kill the blue and ignore me).

It is important to impress on people that EVERYONE in the raid follow the following kill order when it comes to the fight: Oozes (always), Mana Void, Forgotten Ones, Boss. Stress that the boss is the last priority, and that the success of the raid depends on everyone in the raid swapping when adds are up and that ignoring any of them will have potential to wipe the raid.

Everyone in the raid should stack up on Yor’Shaj’s tush, unless they are killing a ooze. With this ooze kill order, and the change to the green ooze on LFR, this will make healing a cinch and will ensure that everyone is groupped up for the red slime when it is out.

This is a two tank fight. I honestly have no idea where it got put into people heads that it is not. Tanks need to swap every four stacks of the debuff, and may need to be reminded to taunt. Healers need to know that it is important to continue to heal the tank with the debuff as well, as the DoT continues to tick while it is active.

Take time to explain the fight. Seriously. This fight can be so easy if people know what to do and everyone is on the same page regarding oozes and kill order for the fight. If people aren’t listening – wait for that one wipe and all of the “I can’t be bothered to wait for an explanation or wipe once” people to leave, and explain. Sometimes the wipe is the catalyst needed for people to accept that an explanation is needed.

Please feel free to share this Yor’shaj information with everyone you can. Feel free to take it and post it on your blog, your guild forums or hire someone to put it in sky writing. The more people who understand how this fight works, the smoother everyone’s LFR experience will be. And in end that is a good thing!

Overall, how have everyone else’s looking for raid experience been? Have you seen the same trends that I have? Have you had good experiences? Bad experiences? Will never touch it again experiences? Do you think there are ways that Blizzard could improve the system?

64 responses to “Dispelling a Few Myths About Raiding (and how to Yor’Shaj in LFR)”

I’ve killed Yor’sahj twice in LFR now and seem to have defaulted to the raid leader role of calling out the ooze orders, haha. I have a few macro buttons on my sidebar which /rw shouts which color to go for, and it has worked great. :D You may want to add to your guide that the Raid Leader throw down the markers in front of each respective ooze spawn point? I think in LFR that visual guide REALLY helps the people who don’t know the fight.

Also for the oozes, I’ve seen Red give trouble on LFR simply because people don’t know that they need to actually stack in, and they find it difficult to understand on the fly, seemingly. Le sigh!

We also one-tanked it in LFR last night, but this was with a guildie tank (entry Heroics Firelands-geared) and I was healing, so we could communicate CDs or whatnot on Vent. It was definitely doable, but I wouldn’t recommend it without a similar setup of coordination/faith, haha.

Great post Beru. We tried to do explanations as well as we could with our typical “GOGOGOGOGOGOGO” people in the raid. It was definitely frustrating after a boss kill when half the group would drop, we’d get dumped back into queue and then with half a raid, a tank would pull trash.

I’ll take note to stay out of LFR on Friday nights…I didn’t even THINK about the 13-17 crowd. Ugh.

I really laugh at your first point (the situation, not you :) ) because that’s also exactly how every single Alterac Valley that ends in a loss goes. It is some sort of necessity for at least one person to whine and cry about how everyone in this run “sucks” or are “noobs”, etc. when a failure happens apparently not realizing that they themselves are the poster child for abject uselessness.

I think the biggest hurdle to Yor’shaj just getting everyone on the same playbook. It really does’t matter which playbook it is, it could be the worst slime priority out there but as long as only one person is marking you can get it done and muscle through the encounter just fine. And yes, please just mark the slime, players at any level respond to that skull and not taking the half second to do it is just asking the lower echelons of LFRers to fail you.

I’m not sure what you can do about any of these points you listed, people are just going to continue behaving poorly if there are no consequences (at least those that behave poorly in the first place). In the dungeon finder I’ve used my ignore list to weed out that chaff for future queues, but you can’t do that fast enough in LFR and no ignore list is large enough to deal with the dregs of WoW’s society. Now if I can just get in a queue as a tank or healer, those queues seem to take forever!

@Eat – You know you do have a point about BGs being a lot the same. I mostly just tune out BG chat on those rare times I venture in there – of course I remember when Alterac Valley took 72 hours to win ;) I would agree that the key to succes on Yor’shaj is making sure everyone is on the same page. But I think that’s true for just about any group activity as well!

I think it’s fine to be disapointed with people when they don’t meet your expectations – although to be fair, my expectations for LFR are set pretty low. I don’t think it is OK to tell them they are “fuck ups”, “retards” or “morons” :)

Admittedly, and this was a huge faux pas, I know, I clicked the LFR button the second I got myself up to a 372 equipped ilvl rating. I did not look up the fights, I never ran it on the PTR, I did not pass go nor collect $200 dollars (Also I forgot to reapply my WG glyph knowing full well it’d be a 25 man, but honestly, it was never a real issue, but I’ll probably pop it back on tonight before going for loot on Morchok tonight).

Now, given, I didn’t get a single piece of loot (Disappointing considering my first boss dropped three pieces I could’ve used, but them’s the breaks) and I came into the group in the middle of Zon’ozz (Like literally, hey, there’s a boss and we’re fighting it AND OH GOD I AM DYING WHAT IS HAPPENING), both of which I contribute to the karma of coming in without any research. That said, I had a fantastic time.

Our RL was a DK named Lor or something along those lines and, despite some apparent misunderstanding of the LFR per what you’ve said (He apparently wasn’t aware of the green slime mechanic differences), but the guy was exceedingly patient, explained every fight ahead of time and things went off practically without a hitch.

We had a handful of people go down during the ice phase on Hagara and some miscellaneous stand-in-it deaths, but we kept our tanks up, didn’t have any wipes and (importantly to me at least) I didn’t face any deaths despite being a first time raider.

The important thing to me, all told, is that I got to experience what Blizzard has long said was the entire point of the LFR feature: giving casual players a chance to experience the content. I got to play the content and man was it fun and I’m now more eager to maybe try signing up as a backup for future 10-mans in my guild. Given, I know not all experiences with the raid finder will go this smoothly (I fully expect to have missed a mechanic and face a stupid death or contribute to a wipe eventually and get some flak or deal with an inept RL), but all told, I think the feature’s off to a solid start.

I disagree with point 5. I’ve done 2+ LFR, and generally on the later bosses I’ve seen groups wipe due to huge losses from not understanding mechanics, even though those mechanics are explained. I know myself that the first time I see something I’m pretty likely to die from it (despite seeing it in a video, reading an explaination, etc). The second time I see that mechanic and have a feel for it I can handle it.

In the second LFR that I did, we lost 2/3 of the raid to the first ice wall, despite being told which direction to run, etc (and this was after they were slowed). After a wipe/reset, only 2 people died to ice walls for the rest of the fight.

So, explainations are a good idea (slime order has to be decided; even if it’s wrong, folks have to be on the same target), but you won’t be able to completely avoid wipes by just typing a quick explaination.

Also, I suspect some of the “churn” has to do with lockouts. The first time I tried LFR, I got a 3/4 group. Afterwards, I queued again, and got a 2/4 group on Yor’Shaj. Then, I got a 0/4 group (that did Yor’Shaj second). Should I have had to fight Hagara 3 times in order to get a combination of queues that enabled me to see all of the bosses? I didn’t. I wasn’t going to put up with that abuse for any longer than I had to.

Execution of mechanics is still important. However, I’d argue that you are a foot up simply by knowing how to deal with them :)

I’m just not really happy with the mentality that it’s OK to leave a raid at a whim. If you don’t have the time/desire/patience for it, they you shouldn’t do it. I do pretty firmly beleive that if you queue, short of an emergency, you should see it through. Perhaps I’m just old-fashioned that way.

You know, I’m not really bothered by LFR people dropping out constantly as long as the raid queue is full enough to replace them quickly. In my experience so far, one pugger is often as good as another (i.e. average) and the tuning isn’t so tight that you need a full raid to succeed. Besides, it’s not like I queued with an expectation that I’d be grouped with any of them so when the survival hunter drops out and is replaced by the afflock, I’m not likely to even notice.

Of course, that’s very much not the case in guild raids and progression fights. I expect applications for raiding guilds will start to ask whether LFR is the applicant’s only raid experience and point them here if it is. “Real raiding” is a very different experience and I wouldn’t be surprised if some people find their sweet spot in LFR groups, abusive assholes and all.

I don’t know, there is just something about someone bailing because the boss they wanted is dead or they didn’t get loot they wanted that sits very wrong with me. Even if your raid fills in seconds, sometimes it’s half the raid dropping, and now you have new tanks, new healers and dps who may not know what to do. It takes time to get everyone up to speed and I think people should have at least a little patience. I might understand if you’ve been on one boss for an hour, but leaving after one wipe is just poor form!

I freely admit that, while on my hunter in LFR, I wipes the raid by calling for green to die, because I forgot the LFR-ness of the green. I fully support the kill order you listed!

That said, my LFR on Kurn went pretty darn smoothly, even though I had to chase the void on Zon’ozz and pop deterrence so it didn’t kill me because people apparently don’t know how to play ping pong or tennis or whatever… Anyhow, I was astounded at the number of people dropping for whatever reason. We had a ton of turnover but managed to always ET replacements, which is awesome.

My LFR experience was decent, only one douchecanoe that I then reported. I’m looking forward to more!

Some of the people dropping may be because other people dropped in a previous run and it creates a cycle.

Yesterday I ran one of my alts through LFR. I initially was placed with a 1/4 group, so after clearing through Hagara, I re-queued and left after the first boss. I was really uncomfortable and it felt weird to leave an ongoing group after one boss, but I think it’s just part of how LFR works.

Oh, I loves it, I loves it! (I think I’ve done it 3 times on every toon with gearscore to get in.) I’m too busy healing like a mad thing to pay much attention to the trash talk. I think all the healer abuse and spitting etc in 5 mans (especially at the beginning of the expansion) has left me a bit blase about what mannerless randoms have to say. And I guess with more participants, there are more chances of getting an asshat or two (or five) in the run. Meh.

It looks fabulous, it’s funny and I think part of the fun is trying to heal through all the mistakes. Zon’ozz is almost a healing dummy.

(And I really, really like new gear. A lot. I just have the manners to not rage about it in chat or vent. Different things motivate different people, and I don’t necessarily see that as ‘doing it wrong’.)

Oh, I’m not saying you shouldn’t love your new gear! You totally should, I know I always get excited when I get an upgrade I’ve really wanted. I just don’t think it should be the sole reason that you raid. :)

The one time I tried to not get them to do green, 5 dps went to green anyway and we wiped to all 3 adds reaching boss:(

Kurn for lfr one single player bouncing the ball is actually the easier way. It will be eaten at 10 stacks regardless and its easier to heal 1 then heal ten Especially if the ten bounce the ball 3 times in 10 seconds.

I’ve gone through 3 runs of LFR this week (after doing a regular 25 man run, so I knew the fights). It went much as you say. One thing I haven’t seen anyone else mention yet and I’m curious if this happens a lot or was a strange occurrence… in my third run, we had 4 tanks. Two of them were marked by the raid finder as dps, but they went ahead and continued being tank spec in spite of this. I believe the queues are long for tanks, because only 2 are required… is this going to lead to lots of tanks queuing as dps and then tanking anyway??

Hrm, I don’t think I’ve seen four tanks. And actually, it seems that they reduced the number of healers from 6 to 5, at least as of the LFR I ran last night with Kitai! Honestly, I’m OK with tanks having a small/equal queue time as everyone else. Perhaps it will knock some of those with the “you need me, so I can act however I want” attitudes down a few pegs!

That’s how I did it last week. After waiting forever with no action at all queued as a tank and healer I broke down and queued as a DPS, full dodge gear and all. I didn’t however, act like a tank once I got in, just played my part as a DPS. I was at least in top 10 DPS so I didn’t feel too bad.

Your point one strikes very true. My first ever LFR was in a group of 10 guildies… actually most of our regular raiders. We figured we’d queue and give it a shot, since all of us were only experienced in 10s. We were all in Mumble.

It was hilarious.

Honestly, it’s like these people’s only reference for how to behave in a raid is the Onyxia Wipe Animation. Most of the people are quiet, a few are friendly, and the vast minority are vocal… and extremely critical. Of everything. The trick is to take along a couple of genuine raiders and your own voice chat, and mock them mercilessly for your own amusement. So very very much amusement.

haha – I actually have had the very same thought with regards to the Ony guy! I also agree that it’s a minority of people, but a very vocal minority. And unfortunately, they can spoil it for everyone else.

I also highly recommend running with at least a few guildies and voice chat just for the entertainment value. Plus we learned that it takes at least 5 people clicking independently to kick someone (don’t stand in the blood and die, then berate the healers for it). I am still hoping for the day that they figure out how to put a “manners” requirement instead of a gear requirement though.

Yea, I’m a little disapointed with needed 5 people to kick the douchebag from the raid. Perhaps that will get better once people understand how the kick feature works? Who knows. I’d also love a manners requirement ;)

Lots of chaos. That’s been my experience, along with bad attitudes and people bailing after a wipe. I ended up leading a group that cleared the zone, and your advice is spot on – take some time to explain what is expected and surprise! people know what to do, and do it.

I’ve done LFR on 2 now, my main the Resto Druid and my alt shadow priest. The one with druid went smoothly for the most part. Healing wasn’t terrible on it considering it’s been awhile since I’ve been in the madness that is a 25 man. There were a couple of moments that it was still a struggle mana wise…but it wasn’t as bad as I thought it might be.
Note to self…don’t do LFR on a Monday night…you have a 35-45 minute que and end up with the bottom of the barrel of raiders. Did LFR with my Shadow Priest who I haven’t really raided with since Naxx or Ulduar. We had a lot of people leaving after each boss because either they got their loot or it didn’t drop. Only had 1 wipe and it was some idiot face pulling Yor’shaj with a pack of trash slimes still up.
I have one more alt to get LFR ready that I feel comfortable running with.
Luckily we didn’t have anyone calling people names at any point which was nice. But it was only the first week :D My hubby, my guildies and I that have run LFR have enjoyed it so far. And neither run has lasted more than hour I don’t think.

I did a LFR last night (Monday), and it wasn’t too bad. But we did go in with about 10 guild mates, so that may have colored it quite a bit differently :) I think all of my runs laster between one and two hours, with two hours being the extreme (and the run from hell on Friday night).

Honestly, this post was a breath of fresh air, in pugs on my server, people rage quit after one wipe, or rage. While i do admit i have done that myself, I have learned patience, you were right on all 5 points, Beru, and i definently look forward to more of your posts. As the saying goes, ignorance is bliss.

I did just have another thought which I think is important. This subject needs to be revisited in a couple of months because its really just an extrapolation of the dungeon finder issues we’ve always had. New content comes to the dungeon finder that’s a significant set up from before (heroics of a new expansion, the zandos, etc.) and the realities of wiping cause the mob, clowns, etc. to be an issue. Once a certain critical mass of encounter knowledge is out there, you get much less friction from random pugs.

The character issues are always still there (that never changes, as seen by how there’s still always whining after a lost BG) but smoother runs keep them more dormant. I would venture to guess that in some time, these will become mostly non issues in the big picture, hidden and over shadowed by the more advanced collective encounter knowledge of the player base.

I’m pretty sure everything does. Tranquility is a pretty epic way to completely wipe the raid. When on raid healing duty, I pretty much go to old school tank healing rotation; continuously cast healing touch on the tank, and last minute cancel any cast that will have any overheal. No one else is taking any damage that needs healing (not on any combination with this slime that we’ve encountered yet with the priority system our guild uses).

This is of course on normal, I’ve not healed this encounter yet on LFR. Its probably not something to be overly worried about in there.

We never bothered to pug the LFR- our first try was with 18 guildies and rest pug’s thursday after the release – we had the tanks and healers ourselves and it went smoothe! I really enjoyed LFR and even if some of your comments on the pug groups scare me, I intend to go again without guild support at any give time.

I agree that explaining the fights clearly and concisely is key to not wiping. The first night I did LFR last week we had a lovely RL (I wish I could remember his name!) Who not only explained the fights but had us play-act them out before the pull. I still remember him running around the perimeter of the room before the fight and saying “Look, here I am avoiding ice and not dying. Killing poles, still not dying. It’s easy.”

Hit post too soon >< anyway, I attribute the careless group-dropping more to how easy it is to get into a LFR pug and the habit these people have from LFD. It's all very "me me me". Who here remembers the ol' tank drop after the first boss in HoR if the shield didn't drop (or if a DPS won it?) Yeah. It's just crossover behavior being that, in their mind, there's no reason to stay and no reason not to drop.

The LFR needs a better vote-kick system.
As it stands now, you need 5 people to vote to kick someone before the question “Do you want to kick this player?” even shows up.
Further, it needs to have a sort of “vote-kick rep”. What i mean by that is, when you get kicked from LFR, the reason needs to stick with you and make it easier to kick you the next time. Knowing that someone is an AFK’er, pulls before the tank (I wanted to shoot people for this. It wiped us so many times), rolls on loot clearly not intended for them (Druids on a 1.4 speed agil/stam dagger, for instance) or is just the plain old “I WILL STAND IN THE MIDDLE AND SHOOT THE BOSS, Screw all of you people talking about “mechanics”.” type of person, would be really handy.

And all these grumps complaining about the snowflakes are silly. They’re pretty. :D

The big problem with LFR is people just need on everything they can, regardless of MS or OS. Sometimes the same person gets 2 of the same loot as well. People are blind on Yor’shaj and automatically go green nomatter what, regardless of how many times we state it before the pull and even when calling it out when the oozes spawn. It’s utterly absurd the amount of baddies in the LFRs. A frost DK was doing 7k. That isn’t even acceptable for ZA/ZG. Fix it blizzard.

1. This is against the TOS, report he idiot under “Report Abuse” not “submit ticket” and watch the kid get banned with in the hour.
2. This is acceptable in LFR. This is not an organized raid. Thus rules of an organized raid does not apply …
3. See #2.
4. See #2.
5. See #2.

You have to realize that there are different rules for LFR due to how it is implemented. You cannot apply your own guild rules to LFR, or any Guild Raid Runs for that matter.

I have to disagree with 4/5 of your “popular misconceptions” regarding LFR. It may sit wrong with you when people leave but I agree with barcs and bear’s replies above. In a regular raid #2-5 would be rude because it inconveniences the rest of the people in the raid due to delays in going back to SW and replacing the people who left (#1 is obviously not acceptable). There is no inconvenient downtime in LFR though, so it’s not rude to leave.

When people queue for LFR they aren’t necessarily signing up for “a raid” they are signing up for “a boss.” I like LFR because it allows me to do a single boss when I know I don’t have time for something more. Also have you considered that some of those people you are mad at for leaving early might have been kicked from the raid? You are assigning reasons you disapprove of to random strangers then getting mad at them when you can’t possibly know the reason. The real reason they could be leaving is that they did the last half of LFR first and no more loot can drop for them, or the baby has woken up from his nap, or the dog wants out, or it’s time to finish the laundry. There’s an infinite number of reasons why someone would leave a LFR group that have nothing to do with the reasons you assign. It would be far worse for them to go afk than to simply drop group.

And for #5, I find it rude when people insist on spending 5mins to explain a fight that everyone should know. Yes it’s new-ish content but there’s still no reason not to know it past the 1st week. There is a 20 min wait to queue up. That’s plenty of time for someone who doesn’t know to learn enough with a quick google search or the dungeon journal. A 5 sec explanation I would have no problem with but a 5 min explanation x8 bosses would be 40mins of wasted time every LFR. I could do 2 dungeons in that time. There’s no reason to punish the majority of people by wasting their time so that the lazy can be coddled.

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