I am not satan and my spirit is not going to be destroyed. I will be strengthened by him, not destroyed, He is my salvation--

Psalm 18:2The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

My soul will be knitted together with his --

Colossians 2:2That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

And, my nakedness covered with the royal robe of his Spirit--

Revelation 3:18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Then this verse will not apply to you:

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

See it says that a washing takes place. It says that a REGENERATION takes place. It shows that a RENEWING takes place. For that to happen something must be disappearing. That which is disappearing is OUR Satan.

and he is saying it is dead, crucified with Christ--so we don't serve sin any more.

5 By being baptized, we have been joined with him in his death. We will certainly also be joined with him in his resurrection.

8 We died with Christ. So we believe that we will also live with him.

11 In the same way, consider yourselves to be dead as far as sin is concerned. Now that you believe in Christ Jesus, consider yourselves to be alive as far as God is concerned.

--Rom 6

This is saying that our bodies died with Christ, so we are no longer slaves to sin and will be restored/resurrected/reborn with Christ. What died is not me, it's my body [of sin]. Now I'm free from sin and death. It's what Cardinal was saying before, we are being given new bodies. In other words, I no longer serve the flesh, I serve God.

Romans 6:23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

If Jesus flesh was not of the ability to sin then He wasn't given sinful flesh. Additionally, it says that Jesus condemned sin in the flesh. This would obviously include His own flesh. So this means that somehow Jesus had to condemn sin in His own flesh. Therefore, desires that could result in sin must arise in His heart that He was able to subdue via the Spirit before it could become sin.

Paul

AMEN Paul. What makes it so hard to see is not understanding that the Son/Seed He sent was SPIRIT, as each Seed bears fruit after it's OWN KIND, and the Father is a Spirit who bears Spirit Seed.

This Seed came in the likeness of sinful flesh (flesh man Jesus), or another way to say it, is that it too was lowered into this bondage of corruption, which is what sinful flesh IS.

It is this SPIRIT SEED that was given Him in the womb, the wheat that is raised up TOGETHER with the tares in the field of Matt. 13 that is the natural man, that OVERCOMES the tares/sinful flesh. This is the anointing from within.

This is why He overcame sin IN THE FLESH, beginning with His own. This Seed is He who both DESCENDED (into flesh beginning with the man Jesus) and ASCENDED (back to origination point) back to the glory that He had before.

We too, were as spirits lowered into flesh/bondage of corruption, but He subjected the same in hope, ie. Christ/Spirit Seed in you, hope of glory/ascending back to origination point.

When He received the anointing from without (dove), then His ministry began. In like fashion, when we receive the baptism in the HG which does the WORKS, our ministry to the body should begin.

If you add the anointing from within with the anointing from without, you have inner layer of gold inside the Ark of the Covenant, followed by the outer layer of gold, both of which cover the "sheetim" (had to change spelling because of board restrictions) wood, which is as our/his humanity.

This is the pattern and cannot be broken, He WAS/IS the PATTERN SON. Following this pattern brings us to Romans 8 talking about the SONS of God who are going to be manifested, yet He is called the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.

Only begotten means THERE'S ONLY ONE, but He became a many membered body which is SPIRIT, ie. a HARVEST from the ONE SEED.

And He did say when you've seen ME you've seen the Father, but the '"me" there was the Spirit/Seed that came from the Father, and therefore was the express image of the Father.

This is the revelation upon which He builds His church, ie. Peter flesh and blood (not even His) have revealed this to you, but your Father which is in heaven. What was revealed?

Thou art the Christ/Spirit Seed/Anointed one. In other words, WHO is it you hear talking to you, Peter? This is why we are told that hereafter we'll not know Him after the flesh but after the Spirit.

The flesh of Him is "gone" in that it was consumed from the glory which was within, ie. MORTALITY covered up of IMMORTALITY, which is the PATTERN.

He was given pre-eminence as the FIRSTBORN of many brethren. He was not firstborn of the FLESH! He was firstborn of the SPIRIT!

Name denotes nature and there is no other NATURE under heaven like this name/nature, BY WHICH WE ARE SAVED, from this bondage of corruption we have been lowered into.

In My Father's house are many mansions. In the older Strong's 'mansions' there runs into a meaning of "nests". The booths of the feast of Tabernacles are as NESTS. They are 'nests' for the overcoming 'eagles'. He goes to prepare a place for us, that where He is, we might be also.

Where is He and how did He get there? The pattern is above. Blessings....

Cardinal... would you be able to explain what you mean in simpler terms?I have no clue what you are saying.Or at least... a general subject of what this is about?Help a sister out..

thanks.. sparrow

Logged

"I knelt to drink,And knew that I was on the brinkOf endless joy. And everywhereI turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

This is why He overcame sin IN THE FLESH, beginning with His own. This Seed is He who both DESCENDED (into flesh beginning with the man Jesus) and ASCENDED (back to origination point) back to the glory that He had before.

We too, were as spirits lowered into flesh/bondage of corruption, but He subjected the same in hope, ie. Christ/Spirit Seed in you, hope of glory/ascending back to origination point.

Psalm 68:18Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Ephesians 4:8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Ephesians 4:8 8 That is why Scripture says, "When he went up to his place on high, he led a line of prisoners. He gave gifts to people." —(Psalm 68:18)

and he is saying it is dead, crucified with Christ--so we don't serve sin any more.

5 By being baptized, we have been joined with him in his death. We will certainly also be joined with him in his resurrection.

8 We died with Christ. So we believe that we will also live with him.

11 In the same way, consider yourselves to be dead as far as sin is concerned. Now that you believe in Christ Jesus, consider yourselves to be alive as far as God is concerned.

--Rom 6

This is saying that our bodies died with Christ, so we are no longer slaves to sin and will be restored/resurrected/reborn with Christ. What died is not me, it's my body [of sin]. Now I'm free from sin and death. It's what Cardinal was saying before, we are being given new bodies. In other words, I no longer serve the flesh, I serve God.

Romans 6:23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Molly, the "old man" is crucified also. This is not a reference to the body but the spirit of the man inside that vessel. Do you see that? It will cease to exist.

This is an interesting word. We might call someone an antique in jest, referring to his age, but this meaning conveys a literal antiquity--something that has been around for a very long time.

Everything that is primitive about us as a species derives from our bodies. We even have a part of the brain called the old brain because we have it in common with more primitive species. (We also have a part of our brain that is unique to all species of animals in the world).

Nevertheless, if there is a 'spirit of man,' I would argue that it derives from the soma--the flesh--rather than vice versa. It is certainly overridden by the soma. We want to save ourselves because the flesh wants to save itself--the flesh with its intricate systems designed for flight or fight will do whatever is necessary to live. The spirit of man, if there is such a thing, cannot override this physical system easily.

You could argue that this is a good thing. We are given fear for a good reason, for instance. Fear is a signal to us that there is danger. But, Christ tells us not to be afraid. Why? Because we cannot do what we have to do as disciples of Christ if we let the physical fear signals coming from the body control us. There are people who cannot even read something because it causes them fear even though it might be factual and very important, much less cast themselves physically into danger.

If we are a slave to our flesh, we cannot do what we have to do. The people we call heroes are those who have done what they had to do regardless of the imperitives of the-- flesh.

17For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these things are opposed one to the other, that ye should not do those things which ye desire;

--Gal 5

That doesn't even mention a spirit of man. That says the war is between flesh and the Spirit of God.

If our spirit, arising from fleshy desires, or held captive to them, is regenerated and renewed by the Holy Ghost, then we have a new/restored/resurrected spirit, one that is not subject to the body, but subject to God. Now we have a spirit that can testify with the Spirit that we are indeed children of God. But this is a matter of walking in the Spirit of Christ rather than the spirit of flesh.

16But I say, Walk in [the] Spirit, and ye shall no way fulfil flesh's lust.

That Spirit that we have shall be destroyed by taking on His Spirit, our spirit become displaced (THIS IS CONVERSION).

Actually I don't think our disagreement has much to do with the difference in how we see the Spirit. We probably would never agree that the Spirit of God within us is not a conscious being within us. We may disagree on what form the spirit comes to us in, but the disagreement I believe is still in how much Christ was made like God by his Spirit. The difference between Christ and man, even after man receives the Spirit is pretty clear.

Christ's church members are with sin even with the SpiritChrist was without sin with the same Spirit

What I have been showing in the course of this conversation is how Christ was THE visible image of the invisible God, and how WE are being CONFORMED to that image. Jesus Christ WAS that image, and we are being CONFORMED to "to the image of the Son" even as He had the Spirit and so do we. Christ was complete, and we are being conformed to his image.

Whatever you say the spirit is, clearly the power thereof is able to put to death our body of death, and deliver us from lust. THAT is the conforming to the image of the completed Son that is occurring with us daily. That is why Christ was without (in the absence of) sin, and we are not, even though we all, including Christ, have the Spirit.

trettep

That Spirit that we have shall be destroyed by taking on His Spirit, our spirit become displaced (THIS IS CONVERSION).

Actually I don't think our disagreement has much to do with the difference in how we see the Spirit. We probably would never agree that the Spirit of God within us is not a conscious being within us. We may disagree on what form the spirit comes to us in, but the disagreement I believe is still in how much Christ was made like God by his Spirit. The difference between Christ and man, even after man receives the Spirit is pretty clear.

Christ's church members are with sin even with the SpiritChrist was without sin with the same Spirit

What I have been showing in the course of this conversation is how Christ was THE visible image of the invisible God, and how WE are being CONFORMED to that image. Jesus Christ WAS that image, and we are being CONFORMED to "to the image of the Son" even as He had the Spirit and so do we. Christ was complete, and we are being conformed to his image.

Whatever you say the spirit is, clearly the power thereof is able to put to death our body of death, and deliver us from lust. THAT is the conforming to the image of the completed Son that is occurring with us daily. That is why Christ was without (in the absence of) sin, and we are not, even though we all, including Christ, have the Spirit.

Here we clearly have disagreement. Sin is not with the Church Members. In fact, by their fruits we would know them. This is telling us that they will not being practicing sin. If they could still practice sin then by what means would we know them? It doesn't mean they can't sin for in their flesh still resides the urge to sin. Sin is always present with us but by Jesus Christ via the Holy Spirit we don't allow sin to manifest. Jesus Christ is the copyright owner (as designated by the Father) for any Spirit that can oppose the flesh.

trettep

Here we clearly have disagreement. Sin is not with the Church Members. In fact, by their fruits we would know them. This is telling us that they will not being practicing sin.

Practicing sin is not my point. Having sin is my point.

Quote

Sin is always present with us but by Jesus Christ via the Holy Spirit we don't allow sin to manifest.

Exactly my point. Sin does not manifest itself within them who are completed in the Spirit because being dead to the body, means the sin in the body is ineffective in producing evil desires.

Sin is forgiven upon receipt of the Spirit so you don't HAVE sin. You only have the capacity of sin. Sin is not always present with us. How can it be? Is it more powerful then the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit such that the sin cannot be removed? - of course not.

Sin being forgiven doesn't mean it isn't there, which is why the mind must be renewed every day. If we say we have no sin, we lie to ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

What is the converse? Those who say they do have sin are not self-deceivers and the truth is in them. I say I am forgiven, yet I say that I do have sin.

Quote

Is it more powerful then the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit such that the sin cannot be removed? - of course not.

Sin will not ALWAYS be with us, which is why we are being CONFORMED to the image of the Son. Someday we will be without sin and will not be self-decievers by saying we don't have it. The washing and regeneration of the spirit cleanses our minds, even as flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God (righteousness, peace and joy in the Spirit).

However, the difference between the Son and his brothers, is in the Son BEING the visible image of the invisible God and us being CONFORMED to the image of the Son.

40 There are also heavenly bodies as well as earthly bodies. Heavenly bodies have one kind of glory. Earthly bodies have another. 41 The sun has one kind of glory. The moon has another kind. The stars have still another. And one star's glory is different from that of another star.

42 It will be like that with bodies that are raised from the dead. The body that is planted does not last forever. The body that is raised from the dead lasts forever. 43 It is planted without honor. But it is raised in glory. It is planted in weakness. But it is raised in power. 44 It is planted as an earthly body. But it is raised as a spiritual body.

Just as there is an earthly body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 It is written, "The first man Adam became a living person."—(Genesis 2:7) The last Adam became a spirit that gives life. 46 What is spiritual did not come first. What is earthly came first. What is spiritual came after that. 47 The first man came from the dust of the earth. The second man came from heaven.

trettep

Sin being forgiven doesn't mean it isn't there, which is why the mind must be renewed every day. If we say we have no sin, we lie to ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

What is the converse? Those who say they do have sin are not self-deceivers and the truth is in them. I say I am forgiven, yet I say that I do have sin.

Quote

Is it more powerful then the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit such that the sin cannot be removed? - of course not.

Sin will not ALWAYS be with us, which is why we are being CONFORMED to the image of the Son. Someday we will be without sin and will not be self-decievers by saying we don't have it. The washing and regeneration of the spirit cleanses our minds, even as flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God (righteousness, peace and joy in the Spirit).

However, the difference between the Son and his brothers, is in the Son BEING the visible image of the invisible God and us being CONFORMED to the image of the Son.

God says that when we are forgiven of sins we have no more sins. See God REALLY does forgive.

1 John 1:8 is just saying that you deceive yourself if you don't believe you have have capacity to sin and that you don't have sin before the cleansing by His blood.

Look at the previous verse:

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Notice once we walk in the light AS he is in the light we are cleansed from ALL sin. That means you would have NO sin.

1 John 1:8 is just saying that you deceive yourself if you don't believe you have have capacity to sin.

Look at the previous verse:

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Paul, when I look at the two verses, I see a very interesting word "IF."

IF, that is IF, we walk in the light as he is in the light THEN we have fellowship AND his blood cleanses us from all sin. The WALKING in the light is what leads to the cleansing away of sin.

The walk leads to the cleansing. We are still walking Paul. We are still walking and still being cleansed of all sin. That is why John says that "If we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." The walk continues and continues until the end, when, since flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, it is discarded forever. As long as we have flesh, and are being conformed to the Son, and looking forward to the redemption of the purchased possession, we have sin that is being cleansed.

If the truth is in us, we say we have sin. If we continue to walk, Christ WILL be faithful to cleanse us from ALL sin. The capacity to sin is created by sin in our members, which we still have, and are being cleansed from daily (the renewing of the mind).

trettep

1 John 1:8 is just saying that you deceive yourself if you don't believe you have have capacity to sin.

Look at the previous verse:

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Paul, when I look at the two verses, I see a very interesting word "IF."

IF, that is IF, we walk in the light as he is in the light THEN we have fellowship AND his blood cleanses us from all sin. The WALKING in the light is what leads to the cleansing away of sin.

The walk leads to the cleansing. We are still walking Paul. We are still walking and still being cleansed of all sin. That is why John says that "If we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."

If the truth is in us, we say we have sin.

Sure the walk cleanses us from our sins. I thought I was making that same point. But then you go onto say that if we have Truth in us then we are to say we have sin. Is that what you really believe the verse means?

Sure the walk cleanses us from our sins. I thought I was making that same point. But then you go onto say that if we have Truth in us then we are to say we have sin. Is that what you really believe the verse means?

Paul

What I believe the verse means is that we have sin in our members (sinful flesh). We HAVE that sin, but our minds are cleansed and renewed daily. That flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom so it will be discarded completely. That is why it says that IF we walk, Christ will cleanse us from ALL sin.

trettep

Sure the walk cleanses us from our sins. I thought I was making that same point. But then you go onto say that if we have Truth in us then we are to say we have sin. Is that what you really believe the verse means?

Paul

What I believe the verse means is that we have sin in our members (sinful flesh). We HAVE that sin, but our minds are cleansed and renewed daily. That flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom so it will be discarded completely. That is why it says that IF we walk, Christ will cleanse us from ALL sin.

But you made it sound like you believe that someone walking with Christ is still a sinner. Is that true?

No, somebody walking with Christ has the capacity to sin, like you said. It just so happens that the capacity to sin is created by sin in the members (sinful flesh). We are still being cleansed in our minds to be apart from sin like he was.

trettep

No, somebody walking with Christ has the capacity to sin, like you said. It just so happens that the capacity to sin is created by sin in the members (sinful flesh). We are still being cleansed in our minds to be apart from sin like he was.

I don't believe the capacity to sin is created by sin. That would mean the the source of all sin is sin. But the scriptures show the source to be transgression of the law. Since the Laws intent is to "do unto others as you would have done unto you" then reason would show that sin is the law of self or the law of serving self OVER others or choosing to serve self instead of others.

No, somebody walking with Christ has the capacity to sin, like you said. It just so happens that the capacity to sin is created by sin in the members (sinful flesh). We are still being cleansed in our minds to be apart from sin like he was.

I don't believe the capacity to sin is created by sin. That would mean the the source of all sin is sin. But the scriptures show the source to be transgression of the law. Since the Laws intent is to "do unto others as you would have done unto you" then reason would show that sin is the law of self or the law of serving self OVER others or choosing to serve self instead of others.

Paul

Reason doesn't need to show us. Scripture shows that the capacity to transgress the law is created by the "law/order of sin in our members" in that sin takes advantage of the commandment to produce in us all manner of lust. That law/order wars against the law/order of our mind drawing US into captivity so that when we want to do good and cannot, it is not I who do it but the sin in me. Sin exists internally until lust seized upon brings it forth.

The source of sin is the body of death. And Paul says "who will save ME from the body of THIS death."

No, somebody walking with Christ has the capacity to sin, like you said. It just so happens that the capacity to sin is created by sin in the members (sinful flesh). We are still being cleansed in our minds to be apart from sin like he was.

I don't believe the capacity to sin is created by sin. That would mean the the source of all sin is sin. But the scriptures show the source to be transgression of the law. Since the Laws intent is to "do unto others as you would have done unto you" then reason would show that sin is the law of self or the law of serving self OVER others or choosing to serve self instead of others.

Paul

Reason doesn't need to show us. Scripture shows that the capacity to transgress the law is created by the "law/order of sin in our members" in that sin takes advantage of the commandment to produce in us all manner of lust. That law/order wars against the law/order of our mind drawing US into captivity so that when we want to do good and cannot, it is not I who do it but the sin in me. Sin exists internally until lust seized upon brings it forth.

The source of sin is the body of death. And Paul says "who will save ME from the body of THIS death."

Well Seth. I suppose I don't have any other hook that the Lord has given me to discuss the MANness of Jesus any further. Maybe He shall at another time.