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WriterSPNerContributor

I think it is imperative to have consistency and precision with the words we use in order to understand one another. If we are to understand the subject to hand, then we have to mean the same by the words we use. For example, a manmukh by definition is one without a guru and gurmukh is one with a guru. This refers to the ability to take on the conceptual world-view of Sikhism's theoretical standpoint. The conceptual framework within which Sikhism's theoretical thinking is defined has distinctive and meaningful vocabulary, knowledge of which is paramount.

The question of freewill in the instant case must on all counts be entertained from within a Sikh perspective. Sikh as a religion has been institutionalised over the centuries and accordingly, has a system of beliefs n values, one of which is gurmukh n manmukh. To further the discussion and develop a thorough understanding, one need to accept the idea of a Supreme Being. The supreme being argument for n against ought to be settled before any crediable inferences or explanations are provided by way of conceptualisation. One argument in favour of a Supreme Being advanced is that the world appears to be structured and functional in such a way that it is much like a clockwork. And, if that'd be true then it follows that the mechanics of a watch can be best explained in terms of it having been made by a designer. So by analogy, the workings and the mechanics of the universe must too have an almighty designer, which we call God.

To understand the concept of manmukh n gurmukh we need to first, establish whether there is a Supreme Being or not ?

Take care -

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Is the question whether a supreme being exists, or whether a supreme being designed the universe?
I acknowledge a supreme being, an energy if you will, that has a passive interest in the world, almost observing, with no interference, so I would take it that this view needs to be resolved before we move on,

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WriterSPNer

Is the question whether a supreme being exists, or whether a supreme being designed the universe?
I acknowledge a supreme being, an energy if you will, that has a passive interest in the world, almost observing, with no interference, so I would take it that this view needs to be resolved before we move on,

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The fact that you've acknowledged the existence of a supreme being [SB], technically rules out the argument for or against God's [wider meaning] existence. Furthermore, you then go on to ascribe to it some functional qualities, namely, passive interest,..observant, non-interfering, which by definition brings it out of a mere existence and into a physical being that has the potential to be anything and everything. Nanak calls him creator [karta purakh], would you hold against me if I was to call him a designer ?

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WriterSPNerContributor

Why does it matter what is your opinion and what is mine ?
fact remains fact. I have an opinion 2+2 is 3 , will you respect my opinion ?
nope, fact is 2+2 is 4, its an objective fact, not subjective .

same way, all the scriptures of world claim to be revelation from god . Be it Upanishads (which are called 'sruti' , sruti means 'heard'(in deep meditation) by the sages) ,
quraan (revealed by gabriel(higher consciousness) to muhammad) , or Guru Granth sahib ji (dhur ki baani aayi)

And all of them speak of one god . Upanishads called it "ParaBrahman" , quran called it allah, Gurbani calls him by many names
but all of them share many attributes of god , he's merciful , he's genderless, he's compassionate, he's omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscience , he's present in ALL OF US.

and not only is he present in ALL, but rather, there's nothing else other than him

The upanishads call him by various names - the absolute, the 'pranas' of life , the abode of breath of life, the abode of the soul.
Quraan sharif calls him - ar-rahman , ar-raheem (the compassionate, the merciful), the absolute, the friend .
Gurbani calls him by a rich , beautiful bouquet of names : "Narayan" (Nar [man] - aayan [resting place]) , "Narayan" - resting place of all individuals,
"Gopal" (Go means knowledge , pal means preserver), 'preserver of knowledge'
"Gobind"(Go means knowledge , could also mean world , bind means center or axis on which everything revolves).

The lord is that on which all paths of knowledge converge, he's like the axis of a wheel .
You see how a wheel has spokes, a rim and then the central hub. The rim of wheel moves, the spokes move, but the hub moves not ! same way, the creation is moving constantly ,but the center of all the creation (god himself) is not moving ! he's not affected by time

Time is the death of everyone . Its time that ages us and kills even the mightiest of us. But he's what Guru Gobind Singh ji saluted as "Namo kaal kaalan" (Salute to the one who is death of time itself , the death of death itself)

As all spokes converge from the rim inwards to the hub, and as all spokes are present in hub , same way all creation converges to god , all creation is present in god as he's present in all creation.

Its funny the lord asks this question on a forum , and the lord answers it , the lord upvotes this answer, the lord is the web page of html you see, the lord is the fonts on it, the lord is the internet , the lord is the question and he himself the answer. Its very mystical , but this is what the rishis (sages) said, the prophets said, our guru sahib said !

The infinite lord is present fully in any particle (Pooran poor rahea suaami)
just as there's infinite real numbers between any two real numbers.

What you see is just the shadow of the tree, the tree remains hidden , but is ready to reveal itself to the ones who strive in that direction , the direction to know themselves.

The butter remains hidden in milk. The ignorant ones ask "Where's butter in milk? you're a liar"
the ones who have churned the milk don't have to ask where's butter. Butter presents itself by its own

Same way, blessed souls (by their past good karmas) find him in deep meditation and then they don't have to ask who it is , whats the truth. The truth reveals itself. Then you won't even have to ask !

same way, all the scriptures of world claim to be revelation from god . Be it Upanishads (which are called 'sruti' , sruti means 'heard'(in deep meditation) by the sages) ,
quraan (revealed by gabriel(higher consciousness) to muhammad) , or Guru Granth sahib ji (dhur ki baani aayi)

And all of them speak of one god . Upanishads called it "ParaBrahman" , quran called it allah, Gurbani calls him by many names
but all of them share many attributes of god , he's merciful , he's genderless, he's compassionate, he's omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscience , he's present in ALL OF US.

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The people of the book see god as a man, so the genderless attribute is not shared, Muslims also do not believe god to be omnipresent, nor do they believe god is present in all, neither do the Christians for that matter. The attributes of god in Christianity are shown to be jealousy and anger, I am afraid most religions offer a differing view of god.

The lord is that on which all paths of knowledge converge, he's like the axis of a wheel .
You see how a wheel has spokes, a rim and then the central hub. The rim of wheel moves, the spokes move, but the hub moves not ! same way, the creation is moving constantly ,but the center of all the creation (god himself) is not moving ! he's not affected by time

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WriterSPNerContributor

Hi Harry Haller,
All religions seem different on surface , but if you scratch a little, under the paint all is one .
In Islam also, quran does say 'allah is nearer to you than your jugular vein' (which indicates god being everywhere and inside us also).
Every religion , every scripture has several layers to it . Vedas , each 4 of them , have 4 layers : samhitas(verses for rituals) , brahmanas(commentary) , aranyakas(ritualistic things) and finally upanishads (abstract spirituality)
Same way its for islam / sufism : shariat (gross literal interpretation), tariqat(technique of spirituality), haqiqat(truth) and marfat(bliss).

In both, the final layer is the one where the juice lies . This is why the rishis of upanishads and sufi saints of last stage hardly contrast each other. Whereas a pandit stuck in samhita rituals and a fanatic mullah stuck in chopping hands and heads as ordered in sharia will find each other highly contrasting.

As far as Im aware, god in sikhi is not just universe, but rather beyond universe as well. Sikhi is not pantheistic, its panENtheistic (there's a difference ).

For you to feel him in deep meditation, you will have to do what I am afraid you hate to do : "the mumbling at 4 am in the morning with single-mindedness"
yes perhaps the thing you ridicule the most is the way to reach the stage you wish to reach .
And yes apart from that sewa (selfless service) is another way . But I guess you're already doing it .

Having said this , I ain't no saint. I just said what I heard from other learned men.

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Moderator

WriterSPNerContributor

All religions seem different on surface , but if you scratch a little, under the paint all is one .
In Islam also, quran does say 'allah is nearer to you than your jugular vein' (which indicates god being everywhere and inside us also).

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I think Islam is pretty definitive that Allah is not part of his creation, and is not everywhere, his learning may be, but not himself, if I am wrong, I am happy to be corrected.

yes perhaps the thing you ridicule the most is the way to reach the stage you wish to reach .

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If in the past I have ridiculed the concept of meditation to achieve anything, I apologise, we are all on a growing journey, I have no right to ridicule anyone or anything, if meditation works for you or for anyone, that is great, I still feel the need to comment where it is lauded as the only way, as it is not the only way, but I am happy to accept it is a way that is popular and ingrained in Sikhism,.

And yes apart from that sewa (selfless service) is another way . But I guess you're already doing it .

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I have put my selfless service on hold, unfortunately life's issues dictate I need a few gulps of the oxygen mask myself, however, it has given me some time to scrutinise not only my previous selfless actions, but the results of such, the results do not make good reading, I have to conclude that selfless service just is not enough, one needs to look at action and consequence too, selfless service, if not done through wisdom and logic can actually make things worse, I guess if the only meaningful outcome is making yourself feel better, then the outcome does not matter, but if the meaningful outcome is making the situations worse, then one needs to think about that.

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WriterSPNerContributor

I have to conclude that selfless service just is not enough, one needs to look at action and consequence too, selfless service

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THIS !
well you learned something ! guess what. sorry I don't wish to sound rude at all . apologies if I do .
But if you just once went through the teachings of guru, you could have learned it without having to experience it .
after all, what's the point of Gurbani if you have to learn everything the hard way.

Last diwali, at evening, when I went to take a stroll at the lake side, as I was returning back home, I saw a man and a small girl with her (maybe her daughter) crying in deep sorrow and as I passed by them , begged for some food . I came home , but my mind was in them. After a while, got up , brought 2 packs of food and went up to the man, who was asleep (or maybe dead ?!! ) . Tried to get him up , so kept the food pack next to him , hoping he will eat it when he gets up, and gave another food pack to the beggar family living under a skywalk

I came home, and did ardas before my PC, and said "O ever present master . I beg you to tell me of my actions. Offer me a gurvaak." And then I went to the cyber hukamnama website and took a shabad

So yes , who you give charity does matter. Perhaps, thats why charity is not so emphasized in sikhi as in other faiths.
Better yet, take some % of income every month and personally go to a orphanage or old age home with some gifts for them .

Perhaps your charities would have frutified multiple folds if you did simran too

Now I make a request with folded hands . Consider a veer from some other side of the world said so : " Will you wake up tomorrow anytime between 4 and 6 am and take a bath, and sit and read a baani or just close your eyes, repeat 'waheguru waheguru' and listen to it with attention"Please do it ! He will not let disappoint you .

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Moderator

WriterSPNerContributor

well you learned something ! guess what. sorry I don't wish to sound rude at all . apologies if I do .
But if you just once went through the teachings of guru, you could have learned it without having to experience it .
after all, what's the point of Gurbani if you have to learn everything the hard way.

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I am a Sikh but not quite in the normal fashion, I agree with everything written in the SGGS and have complete respect for such, however, my conclusions are born out of scars and burns, it is a huge pity that some of us can only learn in such a fashion, but a man needs to know his limitations, the point of Gurbani is confirmation not instruction for me, because in my view, until you have danced the dance, you just don't know. Faith does not work for me, I have faith that the supreme Creator is everywhere and in everything, and that it is purer and truer than a million new born lambs.I do not however believe in the supernatural, miracles, talismans incantations or spells, or indeed anything that feels like such to me, as it is of course subjective.

ast diwali, at evening, when I went to take a stroll at the lake side, as I was returning back home, I saw a man and a small girl with her (maybe her daughter) crying in deep sorrow and as I passed by them , begged for some food . I came home , but my mind was in them. After a while, got up , brought 2 packs of food and went up to the man, who was asleep (or maybe dead ?!! ) . Tried to get him up , so kept the food pack next to him , hoping he will eat it when he gets up, and gave another food pack to the beggar family living under a skywalk

I came home, and did ardas before my PC, and said "O ever present master . I beg you to tell me of my actions. Offer me a gurvaak." And then I went to the cyber hukamnama website and took a shabad

Now I make a request with folded hands . Consider a veer from some other side of the world said so : " Will you wake up tomorrow anytime between 4 and 6 am and take a bath, and sit and read a baani or just close your eyes, repeat 'waheguru waheguru' and listen to it with attention"
Please do it ! He will not let disappoint you .

My long typing would be worth it if you did so . Thank you . God bless you _/\_

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I wake up every morning at 4, I walk to the shop past the park, I watch the sun rise, I look at the animals, the birds, the dead foxes in the road, mini skirted girls coming home from clubs, sleeping beggars in doorways,

I have one question before I consider your request, he will not disappoint you in what way?

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WriterSPNerContributor

We all have worldly needs, physical needs, spiritual needs.
Remember I posted a month back how I can''t help with my masturbation problem .
Something happened and I haven't spilled my seed for a month now !
This is a record of my life time . I don't think I alone did it . If god didn't support me in this .

There's a saying here in india "Bhagwan ke ghar der hai , andher nai "(In god's home, there is wait, but no disappointment )
I don't know if I am making any sense but if spirituality were a matter of brains , it would be science not religion. Spiritual domain is emotional based

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WriterSPNerContributor

You know Harry, when god blessed me with the job I wanted , I was not really a believer. He spoke to my heart when I was travelling in bus from home to interview spot.
And one fine day I asked GGS why he had mercy on me when
tons of others who must be praying as well but didn't land a job.

I had given up on it , but he held my hand. I being an ungrateful dog might forget his favors on me someday but somewhere in corner of my mind I have made a temple for him or so I hope .

He gives his gifts when you don't even know you need them. He knows whats in your mind and what you need more than you yourself know .
We can see one feet in future, he sees miles upon miles .
So its not about he'll punish if you don't do something .

If that were the case, he would never have helped me , but he did.
Rest it also depends on 1) your past karmas , and 2) his grace

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WriterSPNer

..it does matter and hence, you've got the atheists, antagonist's and the rest ! It will help both the discussion to hand and your good self to attain intellectual maturity if you were to read around the subject [do different opinions matter ?]!

..that sir is, mathematical truth [2+2 is 4], offshoot of abstract thinking, numbers of which are no more than symbols representing the quantity of the property in question. Mathematical concepts cannot be held to ground ontological arguments in determining analytical statements other than casting persuasive values and coherent theories of truth. Metaphysical arguments have weighting at both ends, that is, there is God - there isn't God. The argument for outweighs the argument against.

Now if you will, let us determine whether Nanak's "karta purakh" is indeed a being or some airy fairy imagination of the mind !

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WriterSPNerContributor

Now if you will, let us determine whether Nanak's "karta purakh" is indeed a being or some airy fairy imagination of the mind !

Over to the pragmatists & co

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you can have intellectual debates as much as you want . Although in islam or christianity , you could be handed over to an inquisition court or sharia court for it ,
dharmic traditions (sikhi, hindu, buddhist and jain) mostly feel ok with questions
, even if too much !

So this line has 2 meanings although the former is much more circulated than the latter .

God cannot be contained in human intellect the same way that an ocean can't be contained in a cup. That does not mean ocean is not there , our cup is not vast enough .
You can learn by experiencing , but ultimately god can never be found by logical discussions.
If you try to seek god by logical discussion , you most likely will reach the conclusion of atheism.
However if after all the debates, you can just be humble and accept that whatever the gurus said is true and just do what the guru ji said "Waking at amrit vela and trying it out yourself"
I am sure most of the questions would subside .

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WriterSPNerContributor

BTW , has anyone of you tried attempting a meditation on waheguru mantar ?
Steps :
1) Wake up very early in morning . Its actually last quarter of night (3 am - 6 am)
2) Take a bath and then sip a cup of tea if you feel drowsy.
3) Sit in crossed leg position (yoga pose) , close eyes and chant "waheguru ... waheguru ... waheguru ... waheguru ..............."
Do this for like atleast 5 minutes. And here's the key : As you chant 'waheguru' , for each repetition of this divine name of god , try to hear it as deeply as possible with as much focus as possible . Your mind will falter here and there . Focusing mind is tough . But if you keep at it daily, guru ji will bless you.

So like have any of you tried this for atleast even a week or something ?
I am just asking , not passing any judgement .

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Moderator

WriterSPNerContributor

BTW , has anyone of you tried attempting a meditation on waheguru mantar ?
Steps :
1) Wake up very early in morning . Its actually last quarter of night (3 am - 6 am)
2) Take a bath and then sip a cup of tea if you feel drowsy.
3) Sit in crossed leg position (yoga pose) , close eyes and chant "waheguru ... waheguru ... waheguru ... waheguru ..............."
Do this for like atleast 5 minutes. And here's the key : As you chant 'waheguru' , for each repetition of this divine name of god , try to hear it as deeply as possible with as much focus as possible . Your mind will falter here and there . Focusing mind is tough . But if you keep at it daily, guru ji will bless you.

So like have any of you tried this for atleast even a week or something ?
I am just asking , not passing any judgement .

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Seekerji

I feel you are changing, for the better, your posts show a maturity and knowledge that clearly is being imparted to you. I am very glad to see this and would urge you to continue with whatever it is you are doing as it is clearly working.

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WriterSPNerContributor

I feel you are changing, for the better, your posts show a maturity and knowledge that clearly is being imparted to you. I am very glad to see this and would urge you to continue with whatever it is you are doing as it is clearly working.

Well done and thank you for sharing your very honest experiences

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If you're going to praise me (which I would to be honest not want as it might increase my ego, its a sweet poison) , then please tell me what did you see in my simplistic post above that gave u feeling that I am improving and maturing ? as I would like to emulate those points in future.
I just do regular paath of jap ji sahib , well not very punctual , but I try to , sometimes in bus while traveling but strive to do it in early morning .
again , what is it that made you think I am improving lol

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Moderator

WriterSPNerContributor

If you're going to praise me (which I would to be honest not want as it might increase my ego, its a sweet poison) , then please tell me what did you see in my simplistic post above that gave u feeling that I am improving and maturing ? as I would like to emulate those points in future.
I just do regular paath of jap ji sahib , well not very punctual , but I try to , sometimes in bus while traveling but strive to do it in early morning .
again , what is it that made you think I am improving lol

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I did not praise you, I stated fact, what are you doing? instead of worrying about your problems you are doing what you can to face them, that in turn means that you are growing up, and it shows.

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WriterSPNerContributor

BTW , has anyone of you tried attempting a meditation on waheguru mantar ?
Steps :
1) Wake up very early in morning . Its actually last quarter of night (3 am - 6 am)
2) Take a bath and then sip a cup of tea if you feel drowsy.
3) Sit in crossed leg position (yoga pose) , close eyes and chant "waheguru ... waheguru ... waheguru ... waheguru ..............."
Do this for like atleast 5 minutes. And here's the key : As you chant 'waheguru' , for each repetition of this divine name of god , try to hear it as deeply as possible with as much focus as possible . Your mind will falter here and there . Focusing mind is tough . But if you keep at it daily, guru ji will bless you.

So like have any of you tried this for atleast even a week or something ?
I am just asking , not passing any judgement .

ExpandCollapse

WriterSPNer

you can have intellectual debates as much as you want . Although in islam or christianity , you could be handed over to an inquisition court or sharia court for it ,
dharmic traditions (sikhi, hindu, buddhist and jain) mostly feel ok with questions
, even if too much !

So this line has 2 meanings although the former is much more circulated than the latter .

God cannot be contained in human intellect the same way that an ocean can't be contained in a cup. That does not mean ocean is not there , our cup is not vast enough .
You can learn by experiencing , but ultimately god can never be found by logical discussions.
If you try to seek god by logical discussion , you most likely will reach the conclusion of atheism.
However if after all the debates, you can just be humble and accept that whatever the gurus said is true and just do what the guru ji said "Waking at amrit vela and trying it out yourself"
I am sure most of the questions would subside .

Thank you for the thought through email, showing signs of intellectual maturity already, well done !

As regards discussions [dialectic] etc. it's healthy to be sharing cross-community views because they are different and these differences are interesting. Just as wheat is separated from sheaf by thrashing it out on hard surface and butter churned from milk by spinning paddles inside the jar, so too is reached intellectual perfection by destroying assumptions and self-make beliefs through a process called, dialectical. Not that it'll change the fundamentals of the belief in itself [Sikhism], but the fundamentals will change the perceptions and in some instances, conceptual world-view of those engaged in dialectical enterprise. Hence the reason, Guru Ji is suggestive [thal vich tin vastu..sat, santokh and vichar, page 1429 of SGGSJ], meaning, "chew" on the word of God and thou shall come to understand the hidden meanings of Nanak's Nirankar. The power of the shabd is beyond the calculation of man. Look at you for example, your recent email is subtle and serene, I enjoyed reading it . Gur ka shabd maha ras mitha [word of guru is super sweet].

Besides, imagine if everyone believed in God ? God will be out of a job and the world will be a boring place, don't you think ? It's because of the non-believers, sceptics and atheist camps scattered around the globe that keeps God on His toes. And, God is diversity not singularity. The good, bad and the ugly are all children of Baba Nanak.

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