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Originally posted by jazzwee: Actually B7 (unaltered) would be in the key of E...

In the key of Em, B7 would have a flat 9 since C is in the scale.

Jazzers are theory geeks...sorry [/b]

Hi jazzwee,Thanks for this great thread! I think this is just what I've been needing. As I said in the other thread, it seems that I'm not unique in having a pretty good collection of jazz theory books but somehow never really finding ways to to apply the intimidating amount of theory they tend to give.

In this thread, already, you've gotten most of us off the dime and learning some cool shell voicings! What a great way to learn - teaching something we can apply immediately and make some music that actually sounds good!

Now, my question - could you please elaborate a bit on your answer to Cathy above? I would like to really try to understand this notion.

A (possibly) related question - early in this thread, you said we need to "learn the key centers intimately." What are key centers? Synonymous with "changes?" Or something else?

Boy, you guys ask tough questions. It's tough because it's hard to answer in short form. I'll give the quick answers on the specifics first and flesh it out later.

quote:Originally posted by jazzwee:Actually B7 (unaltered) would be in the key of E... [/b]

[BRAIN EXPLOSION ALERT]When you see a dominant like B7, you need to immediately assume it's the 5th degree of the scale. So this is the fifth in E Scale (E, F#, G#, A, B). If this were a Bmaj7, then it could be the 1st or 4th degree of the scale because only those have Major 7's thus it could be B scale or F# scale.[/BRAIN EXPLOSION ALERT]

So to fully understand this quickie answer requires an explanation of Scale Degrees. This is so important to jazz so it is worth explaining. But of course, this is nothing new. It's in all the theory books. I will attempt to find a summarized and simple explanation.

But if you're eager to learn, here's an example of a complete resource on theory.

First we need to pick a scale. We will use C scale in my example but to reproduce this in any scale, just figure out what the scale notes are and it will turn out the same way.

So in the key of C, the notes of the scale are all the white notes. For this exercise, I will repeat some of the notes in a second octave, so that 13 notes are displayed.

C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C,D,E,F,G,A[/b]1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13

Now we're going to build our first 7th chord starting from C. A seventh chord has 4 notes: 1st (Root), 3rd, 5th, 7th. In other words, you skip every other note in the scale.

So using the scale above, the chord will be:

C E G B.

Since we started on the first note (C), we will call this the '1st' Degree. Don't be put off by the term 'degree' but you know it's the first of a series.

Now we will start with the second note (D), which we will call the '2nd' Degree.D F A C

Next we will start with the third note (E), which we will call the '3nd' Degree.E G B D

Are you with me so far? All I'm doing is starting with a specific numbered note and picking every other note after that. If you do this up to seven times you will arrive at the following chart for C Scale (you will come up with a different one for every major scale).

No, this is not a secret code chart for decryption . This is quite meaningful in music.

Now although, all the notes above are organized as alternating notes in a scale, someone thinking carefully will notice that the gap between notes is not the same. The reason is that the black keys on your piano are not evenly distributed. Remember Db, Eb, Gb, Ab, Bb? (or translate to sharps if you wish). The point is that the intervals will actually vary between these notes. So if you actually convert them to chords, it will look like this:

To remind us of what kind of chord naturally occurs at each scale degree, we will often express each scale degree in Roman Numerals. We capitalize for major and use lower case for minor. So this will now be:

I - CM7ii - Dm7iii - Em7IV - FM7V - G7vi - Am7vii - Bm7b5

You can do this for any scale. Since we are doing G scale for Autumn Leaves, let me just give you the scale degrees in G:

G Scale: G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, substituted below.

I - GM7ii - Am7iii - Bm7IV - CM7V - D7vi - Em7vii - F#m7b5

Now this is just the miniscule beginning of theory but note that, to answer the earlier question, there is only one place where you will find a Dominant 7. And that is always the fifth degree of a scale. If you think to any music and find a dominant 7, at that point in that music, count back to see what this Dominant 7 is 5th of, and you will find what key you're in.

In Autumn Leaves, we have D7 so we automatically know we are in the key of G. So jazzers are trained to look for Dominant 7's since they are a unique marker. More likely, in Jazz Standards, you will find a pair consisting of the ii degree and the V degree. This is the clincher to key identification. So in Autumn Leaves, we always have a paired Am7 and D7 (ii & V), and that tells us that we are in G.

The difficulty in jazz theory is that in complex jazz tunes, a tune might be in several keys. Some tunes like giant steps will change key at every measure or so.

In Autumn Leaves, the key shifts between G and Em. Now there is another exercise to find the scale degrees of minor scales but let's leave you to mull this over to this point.

Now it is another matter to apply this basic information and it will be quite a revelation for many. Stay tuned...

In music theory (all music, not just jazz), chords in various scale degrees have a function.

Some chords have a tension to them, like it makes you want to move the music. Some chords gives a feeling of stability (or in music we say 'release').

V chords (Dominant 7's) are very high tension chords and these naturally want to go to the I chord (Major 7 chords). I chords don't feel like they want to go anywhere. Other chords have intermediate functions that have a leaning as far as direction goes. The two maj7 chords are the most stable.

Many folk songs, rock songs, classical music, and the blues will commonly use the I, IV and V degree.

So in C this would be the CMaj(I), FMaj(IV), and G7 (V). In other music, typically chords are only triads (first three notes), so the seventh is skipped. In jazz we use 4 notes. If you know the I, IV, and V chord of any scale, you could play 90% of popular music. And this is the basis of many a 'Quickly Learn to Play Piano by Ear' course. They will teach you to recognize the I, IV, V pattern.

Jazz is tremenduously more complicated because other than for the Blues, you will not find this simple chord pattern too often.

Jazzwee, you deserve a medal for this! I've always wanted to learn to play jazz and now I think I've found the path!

By the way, in your recording of Autumn Leaves are you simply playing roots and sevenths in the left hand and just the melody line in the right? It sounds so much fuller than mine so I wondered if there are some occasional added notes.

Originally posted by jazzwee: BTW - I've invited some jazz pros to read our posts and so they are out there lurking and giving us the Thumbs up

ganymed, welcome! Are you a pro jazzer? And thanks for answering part of that question. [/b]

First of all I want to say that im very grateful for this thread!

Hey jazzwee. Im 19 and started piano playing 2 years ago. Before I played flute for 8 years

So I am a bloody beginner with classical - and jazzpiano of course too !! Recently i discovered it for myself and I began to love it! But learning it is not as simple as that T_T.It is a science

In order to learn more about Jazz i visit a Jazz Composition course to learn something about the theory at least. But I dont know how to improvise at all!! I'd love to take jazz piano lessons but my the tuition for my classical teacher is all I can afford. So I am accepting the challenge of becoming self-taught.

Im familiar with classical harmony. But when it comes to analyzing a Bach fugue i call it a day. haha. As for jazz, i can play most chords of the lead sheets and play em rather quickly. I learned the inversions of the triads tooI can play all minor and major scales. Thats about it. So you see that i havent got the slightest idea of jazz XD!

Im looking forward towards your next advices .Do you use any books to learn jazz piano from ?

It is starting to make sense - will have to re-read a few more times and give it time to soak in.

How about the concept of "key centers?" Where does this come in? [/b]

Steve W, this will come in heavily when we get to learning how to solo. In order to solo over chord changes, you need to know what notes to pick and these are typically notes of a particular scale. So if you know what key you're in, you don't have to do it by trial and error.

For example in Autumn Leaves, the initial scale to use is "G" scale. You can play any note in G scale in a solo and it will sound correct ('Diatonic' is the formal term).

Ok, I just rushed over to the keyboard and recorded a quick simple version. LH 1,7 and 1,3 like others mentioned early in this thread (that's just what I'm used to doing right now). First time through played like I would normally, second time through tried to push the melody around a bit, not always with a lot of success.

DeepElem, great job! I'm proud of all of you. You're all making music!

Don't worry that we've done anything different. We're still on 1/7's. The only additional exercise for pre-solo is to do 1/7's in the LH and 3rds on the RH. This is important to get to the solo stage.

And all your recordings sound great. My Zoom H4 is on the blink. It has a little 'Mic Gain' problem so it keeps going from Low to High and distorting my recordings. GRRRR! This is making it a little harder to provide recordings.

Originally posted by Elssa: could someone please clarify the relationship between Autumn Leaves and the Circle of Fifths/Fourths? [/b]

Well, in my folk-style reading of the circle of 5ths, of which rintincop has posted a handy graphic here, I mostly think of the root of the chord. The 5ths are read clockwise - from C "up" the keyboard (or the alphabet ) to G is a 5th, and the G is the V chord in the key of C. So, often, in other keys, one will find a G7, a V7, leading into a C chord, even if G7 isn't normally in that key. You might, for instance, find a G7 chord leading to a C7 chord which leads to the tonic F in the key of F.

But if you read the circle of "5ths" counterclockwise what you are reading is the chord progression of V-I in each pair - G to C, C to F, F to B, etc (yeah, Bb, but for me that's a refinement of the concept). So, in much old 40's popular music you'll find a string of those chord progressions in a piece of music - following the "circle of 4ths" - C "up" to F) - A to D to G to C to F - only they'll all be V7 chords, and not part of the "key" in which the piece is written.

So I've gotten to thinking of *any* A chord, whether it's A7, or Amaj7 or Amin or Adim, or Ab, or whatever, as a "flavor" of a dominant 5th that can lead to some "flavor" of D, and similarly for any of the other progressions.

So the chord progression for the A part of Autumn Leaves features roots from the circle of 4ths - A-D-G-C-F-B-E - counterclockwise around the circle from A, which leads right back to the A again. The B section starts on an F(#) root, and follows the circle of 4ths around again, eventually going far enuf to end on the Em.

That may or may not clarify anything , but it's the way I think of it.

EDIT: LOL - rintincop changed the particular graphic of the circle of 5ths while I was writing my tome, and added a very succinct explanation. Well done, rtc.

This will just allow all of you to get the timing of the chords and melody right. I do a poor job of phrasing but this is not really jazzy, it serves a utilitarian purpose. Time your melody to the rhythm. I'm playing half notes in the LH, so you can count through it. It's important when playing get the base rhythm down. I know it takes awhile to get there but I will help you. Don't worry if it takes longer than you thought.

Well, here's something I recorded last year.. It's in ballad form in key of G/Eminor with some arps and runs. When I played it for my jazz teacher at the time, he said it was terrible and really needs to be played with a "swing", not as a ballad! (but here it is anyway). :rolleyes: My goal is to learn to "swing it" and also to improvise with the chords.

Elssa, such beautiful ballad playing. You have excellent piano technique! I thoroughly enjoyed this and I'm sure everyone else did. Even in ballad form it will be a good for getting the timing of the melody with the chords down. Thanks for sharing that.

westarm, I didn't expect everyone to try to understand the Scale Degree Lesson. I'm mixing theory and practice here. I'm glad you invested the time to do that though, because it will enhance your understanding later.

Now all of us who have posted music should try with future attempts to making sure the melody is correctly lined up with the chords and keeping the LH Rhythm constant at your desired tempo. Let's not be too happy with what we've done. Shoot for the next level. We'll all vote to give a virtual Medal for 'Most Improved'.

So the chord progression for the A part of Autumn Leaves features roots from the circle of 4ths - A-D-G-C-F-B-E - counterclockwise around the circle from A, which leads right back to the A again.[/b]

Yes, I see what you mean about using some form or "flavor" of the root chord. I thought I had read somewhere sometime that Autumn Leaves used a full Circle of 5th/4ths, so that confused me about the F# chord, but they must have just meant using some form of "F", as you say.

F# is NOT some form of F even though they both have an "F" in their name.

That's why it makes sense to think of it as two 2-5-1's. Am-D7-G is a 2-5-1 in the key of G, F#m7b5-B7(b9)-Em is a 2-5-1 in the key of Em (which is the relative minor of G). With a C chord to connect the two.

Originally posted by jazzwee:Now all of us who have posted music should try with future attempts to making sure the melody is correctly lined up with the chords[/b]

What is the point of that? Isn't that the opposite of swinging? [/b]

Isn't swinging also "correctly" aligned with the chords, just differently than straight time?

After hearing Jazz's simple melody, I for one have decided to do more work on straight rhythm before grabbing a vine and letting loose a Tarzan yell. But I don't think the intention was to stop anyone from swinging.

So I'm currently learning the 1-7 left hand with the single-note melody, straight time, not really atempting any swing-type rhythm yet, since I want to be able to play the 1-7 in the left hand without having to think about it so much. And I'm happy to say that I can read some of the theory-related posts (over and over) and it's beginning to make a little bit of sense, as long as I just take it slowly and not get inpatient with myself.

If all goes well today, I'll post a recording this evening. I love all the recordings I've listened to so far. Very inspiring.