cgraves67:I've never understood the allure of concealed carry. Wouldn't open carry be better? Why is having a gun hidden in a waistband holster or under your coat better than having it on your belt like a cop?

tricycleracer:GanjSmokr: cgraves67: tricycleracer: My dad's not very inconspicuous about his concealed permit. He wears an NRA cap everywhere and uses his CCW card as his primary form of identification.

May as well wear a t-shirt that says "I'm carrying a firearm".

I've never understood the allure of concealed carry. Wouldn't open carry be better? Why is having a gun hidden in a waistband holster or under your coat better than having it on your belt like a cop?

Because some of the more delicate people get all "OMG HE'S GOT A GUNNNNNNN!!!!!! CALL THE POLICE!" if people open carry.

It's almost as though there is a correlation between the increase in conceal carry permits and the decrease in crime. Who'd a thunk it.

Eh, it's way more complex than a simple correlation. Could be that if we HADN'T started issuing them willy-nilly, our crime rate would have decreased faster. Everyone's crime rate fell, including states that didn't start giving out permits to almost anyone who asked.

tricycleracer:GanjSmokr: cgraves67: tricycleracer: My dad's not very inconspicuous about his concealed permit. He wears an NRA cap everywhere and uses his CCW card as his primary form of identification.

May as well wear a t-shirt that says "I'm carrying a firearm".

I've never understood the allure of concealed carry. Wouldn't open carry be better? Why is having a gun hidden in a waistband holster or under your coat better than having it on your belt like a cop?

Because some of the more delicate people get all "OMG HE'S GOT A GUNNNNNNN!!!!!! CALL THE POLICE!" if people open carry.

The downside to open carry is that you become the first target.

Only in very limited circumstances. Something like a planned raid? Yeah, you've got a target on your back. Random street violence? You just get avoided.

But it's definitely more of an issue when you're the only guy for blocks with a piece on your hip. If there are plenty of people carrying, you aren't as 'alone'.

It's almost as though there is a correlation between the increase in conceal carry permits and the decrease in crime. Who'd a thunk it.

Eh, it's way more complex than a simple correlation. Could be that if we HADN'T started issuing them willy-nilly, our crime rate would have decreased faster. Everyone's crime rate fell, including states that didn't start giving out permits to almost anyone who asked.

Kuroshin: iheartscotch: dahmers love zombie: Just sayin':

It's almost as though there is a correlation between the increase in conceal carry permits and the decrease in crime. Who'd a thunk it.

And what is the rule re: correlation v. causation?

People who ask that question rarely understand the answer?

You just answered it in your response to iheartscotch, yet you somehow think it's beyond understanding to someone who is trying to make the same point as you just did.

A Shambling Mound:I'd like to know what percentage of gun violence is perpetrated by individuals that possess concealed carry permit but I don't have time to look around at the moment.

Florida, at least previously, recorded when concealed weapons permits were revoked due to a crime committed with use of a firearm. As of December 2010 (I am unable to locate updated data), a total of 168 permits had been revoked for that cause, out of 1,885,875 issued since the system was established and out of 773,016 valid at the time of the report.

It's almost as though there is a correlation between the increase in conceal carry permits and the decrease in crime. Who'd a thunk it.

And what is the rule re: correlation v. causation?

Granted; but, you also cannot say that it is not causal in nature.

/ I know people on both sides; the people against don't seem to completely understand how guns/bullets function. I'll give an example; a young lady I know is very much against people owning assault rifles. I pointed out to her that assault rifles have a perfectly valid use in hunting(as you can buy small magazines). She felt that the bullet would damage the meat. I explained that most assault rifles usually use cartrages that have less power when compared with bolt action hunting rifles.

Electrify:Is this where the gunnuts proclaim that cities with relaxed gun laws have lower rates of gun crime than those that don't?

Nope.

Is this also where we point out that Toronto, a city with a similar as Chicago and far more restrictive laws, has had 1/10th the number of gun crimes than said city?

Weak argument, because...

/if the only way to keep your population feeling safe is for everyone to own a firearm, then you have much deeper problems than gun laws

...that.

Guns aren't the problem. They aren't even a problem. Americans are the problem. The society we've made is the problem. Ban guns outright, and there will still be more than enough shootings to go around. Can't pack that genie back into the bottle.

To be valid, you need to compare the crime rate to the national average, as well as to a non-issue or shall-issue state.

Basically, once you eliminate the variables, shall-issue has no effect - positive or negative - on the crime rate. It's almost as if criminals ignore the law.

cgraves67:I've never understood the allure of concealed carry. Wouldn't open carry be better? Why is having a gun hidden in a waistband holster or under your coat better than having it on your belt like a cop?

1) Open carry has a social stigma in most settings. People just treat you differently.

2) Open carry makes you a target for preachy liberals and especially stupid criminals

3) Concealed carry protects everyone because it creates doubt as to who is packing and who isn't. (or so the theory goes)

Electrify:Is this where the gunnuts proclaim that cities with relaxed gun laws have lower rates of gun crime than those that don't?

Is this also where we point out that Toronto, a city with a similar as Chicago and far more restrictive laws, has had 1/10th the number of gun crimes than said city?

/if the only way to keep your population feeling safe is for everyone to own a firearm, then you have much deeper problems than gun laws

Chicago will not issue any firearm permits, so Toronto at best is just as strict with gun laws as Chicago. Chicago's problems run so much deeper than guns laws.... mainly, complete political corruption. Oh sorry, did I derail your rhetoric? My bad.

It's almost as though there is a correlation between the increase in conceal carry permits and the decrease in crime. Who'd a thunk it.

And what is the rule re: correlation v. causation?

Granted; but, you also cannot say that it is not causal in nature.

/ I know people on both sides; the people against don't seem to completely understand how guns/bullets function. I'll give an example; a young lady I know is very much against people owning assault rifles. I pointed out to her that assault rifles have a perfectly valid use in hunting(as you can buy small magazines). She felt that the bullet would damage the meat. I explained that most assault rifles usually use cartrages that have less power when compared with bolt action hunting rifles.

Actually, I *can* say it isn't causal in nature. The two don't have anything to do with one-another. Violent crime rates declined across the entire country. Gun laws didn't change. People did.

So... violent crime goes down under Democratic presidents and holds steady under Republicans. But what does that have to do with Florida's gun laws? Just askin'. [trollface.jpg]

Anyway, I hope that when the millionth gun permit was signed, a banner unfurled and bullets dropped from the ceiling like confetti, and some local TV personality presented the surprised permit-applicant with a novelty oversized gun.

A Shambling Mound, very few. With what you have to go through to get one, most do not want to put their permits in jeopardy. Yeah, I know, George Zimmerman, blah, blah, blah. I think after what he is going through, most folks are going to think twice about using their firearms unless ABSOLUTELY necessary. As a CCW holder, I know I will.

It's almost as though there is a correlation between the increase in conceal carry permits and the decrease in crime. Who'd a thunk it.

And what is the rule re: correlation v. causation?

Granted; but, you also cannot say that it is not causal in nature.

/ I know people on both sides; the people against don't seem to completely understand how guns/bullets function. I'll give an example; a young lady I know is very much against people owning assault rifles. I pointed out to her that assault rifles have a perfectly valid use in hunting(as you can buy small magazines). She felt that the bullet would damage the meat. I explained that most assault rifles usually use cartrages that have less power when compared with bolt action hunting rifles.

Actually, I *can* say it isn't causal in nature. The two don't have anything to do with one-another. Violent crime rates declined across the entire country. Gun laws didn't change. People did.

I'm lazy, and Wiki has plenty of graphs, so... Link

I see there's a graph part way down of the 3 worst cities in the united states for murders, Detroit, DC and Baltimore. I know DC and Detroit have strict gun control laws and, last I knew, were both fighting against conceal carry. I don't know about Baltimore; but, if I remember correctly, Maryland is not a shall issue state.

What a coincidence!

/ I agree that it cannot be proven causal, but, my point was that it also cannot be proven that it is not causal

Every state in the union has a justifiable homicide statute, and I'm positive every one of them has deemed multiple homicides justifiable that you would disagree with.

It is sometimes a regrettable necessity to take a life in order to preserve your own or that of a third party, and it's a universal principle in western law that you can legitimately reply to an imminent threat of deadly force in kind.

FYI, "smashing someone's head into the pavement repeatedly" is deadly force.