Since no less than three people have argued with my posts about the details of the evidence implicating Ward rather than addressing my point, it is quite obvious that not everyone "gets" it.

EDIT: add bitbyblit to the list, making at least four

This is what you posted:

Quote:

Originally Posted by john4200

I was surprised that Skye did not think, even for a second, that the traitor might be Melinda. The evidence that it was Ward was quite persuasive, but I did not expect Skye to be so rational about it so quickly.

I pointed out that Skye likely was not certain that Ward was Hydra, at least not at the beginning, and thus must have considered the possibility that it could have been May.

But I also think you are overestimating her feelings for Ward and animosity toward May. Her animosity toward May only resurfaced when she thought May was betraying Coulson. But nothing indicated that any of that remained once they got to Providence.

And so far Ward has been the one primarily making the moves on her. While Skye has seemed somewhat interested, nothing has indicated that she was so blinded by love that all reason would have escaped her. On top of that, she is a genius computer hacker, so she would have a more analytical mind than most.

The blood likely triggered Skye's memory of having seen it on Ward just moments ago along with his acting weird about it. That, combined with Ward having been at the Fridge combined with Ward's association with Garrett combined with May having been involved in a confrontation where Garrett was about to kill her all strongly implicated Ward.

Her mind most likely automatically connected the dots subconsciously, and it was an instinctive reaction for her to conclude, "Ward". No doubt after that initial gut reaction, she consciously processed all the facts. But at least she had the wherewithal to hide from Ward until she could verify one way or the other.

Her mind most likely automatically connected the dots subconsciously, and it was an instinctive reaction for her to conclude, "Ward".

Which is quite an amazing and unusual thing for a person to do so quickly in such a situation, given natural biases, the complexity of the evidence, and the stress of finding a colleague's dead body. Which was my original point.

Which is quite an amazing and unusual thing for a person to do so quickly in such a situation, given natural biases, the complexity of the evidence, and the stress of finding a colleague's dead body. Which was my original point.

Disagree.

If Melinda had been the killer, there would have been no reason for her to hide Koenig's body, or, if she DID hide the body, to put a trigger on the door so she'd know if someone discovered it. It would be completely illogical and a waste of getaway time. So the penny on the door made it clear that it was Ward who killed him. Any lingering doubt she may have had was erased when Ward said nothing about the penny when he opened the door, and when he told her Koenig was opening the hanger doors for them.

I was more surprised that she didn't consider, even wrongly, that Ward had killed May as well. (Note that she may have, but she didn't articulate it, which I would have expected.)

and yeah, as soon as Ward opened the door to the closet, I said "Skye better have put that penny back".

That is our fault. We should just admit that he is perfect, that his logic is infallible, and that he is smarter than all of us put together. Once I reached that conclusion, I stopped banging my head against my desk.

I actually thought this episode was pretty okay. I didn't think the characters acted too far from what would be logical. I still have issues though, as others have stated...

How did Melinda May get back to civilization? It is supposed to be extremely remote and secret and all. I just don't think she could have walked.

Why did Ward use a penny? Come on, Bond did this right 50 years ago. You use a small length of string laid in front of the door. If it's messed up/moved you know someone has been through the door but without telegraphing your warning system. What good is a warning that immediately tells the person entering that they have been detected. (Pennies don't magically wind up on top of a door).

Maybe Ward had a penny, but didn't have any string. Would it be better if he had used a more sophisticated system, but Skye had sussed it out anyway? I'd rather have Ward be in a hurry and use what he had available, even if imperfect, than another scene where Skye is unbelievably talented and/or lucky.

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If Melinda had been the killer, there would have been no reason for her to hide Koenig's body, or, if she DID hide the body, to put a trigger on the door so she'd know if someone discovered it. It would be completely illogical and a waste of getaway time.

Or even create a body in the first place. Why kill Koenig and then say goodbye to Ward, or vice versa? There was no clear reason why May would want Koenig dead, but not Ward or Skye.

The most likely reason to kill Koenig would be to keep someone still at the base from finding out something about someone else still at the base. That left two possibilities: Skye killed Koenig to prevent Ward from finding out something or Ward killed Koenig to prevent Skye from finding out something. And Skye could eliminate one of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoBeth66

I was more surprised that she didn't consider, even wrongly, that Ward had killed May as well. (Note that she may have, but she didn't articulate it, which I would have expected.)

I think if she did consider it in her head, she probably realized that since Ward didn't know about the lanyard tracking system, May's lanyard would have still been in the building had her body been hidden somewhere else.

Thus, May must have really left.

But if the thought that Ward might have killed May as well did pop into her head when she discovered Koenig, that would have been one more thing that would have pushed her initial gut reaction into the "Ward did it" territory.

And I suppose it's still possible that she thinks May truly wanted to leave, but Ward might have gotten to her outside, and killed her there. If so, she likely knows that she needs to tread lightly because Ward told her May had left, and she needs to continue to pretend that she trusts him completely. So even if she suspects that Ward might have killed May, she has to be careful about how she probes him about it.

I think if she did consider it in her head, she probably realized that since Ward didn't know about the lanyard tracking system, May's lanyard would have still been in the building had her body been hidden someone else.

Thus, May must have really left.

But if the thought that Ward might have killed May as well did pop into her head when she discovered Koenig, that would have been one more thing that would have pushed her initial gut reaction into the "Ward did it" territory.

And I suppose it's still possible that she thinks May truly wanted to leave, but Ward might have gotten to her outside, and killed her there. If so, she likely knows that she needs to tread lightly because Ward told her May had left, and she needs to continue to pretend that she trusts him completely. So even if she suspects that Ward might have killed May, she has to be careful about how she probes him about it.

That's really good analysis. Makes sense when you look at it that way.

If Melinda had been the killer, there would have been no reason for her to hide Koenig's body, or, if she DID hide the body, to put a trigger on the door so she'd know if someone discovered it. It would be completely illogical and a waste of getaway time. So the penny on the door made it clear that it was Ward who killed him.

I think that this, more than anything else, exonerates May as the killer, leaving only Ward.

Anyone else taken aback when May leaves the secret outpost and just walks out the door. The next time we see her she is walking on a highway with no snow to meet her mom. Did May walk all that way? Wow, she is a fast walker and has great endurance!!!

I have no problems assuming May is a resourceful enough agent to secure transportation (stealing cars, hitching rides, heck, leaping onto moving trains) to get there, and we just didn't see the voyage since it wasn't noteworthy. It does seem like it was awfully quick, though, considering how little time passed comparatively for the others.

Didn't someone observe that the name Koenig was shared with one of the Howling Commandos, suggesting maybe that character might be a grandson of one of them? Or did I imagine that? If that's the case, maybe this was a funny way of saying that, despite the name, he wasn't actually what we guessed he might be.

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Didn't someone observe that the name Koenig was shared with one of the Howling Commandos, suggesting maybe that character might be a grandson of one of them?

In the comics, Eric Koenig was one of the Howling Commandos. However, the Cinematic Universe doesn't necessarily depict the characters in the same way as the comics. (For example, Jasper Sitwell also appeared in the comics, but there he was a loyal SHIELD agent.)

Captain America first came back in the 1960s, only 20 years after he fought in WW2. It was conceivable that he could run into other veterans of WW2 still active and fighting for SHIELD at that time. Comics time elasticity let those characters continue to live even though the idea that these middle-aged men fought in WW2 is now ridiculous.

But the movies brings Cap back 70 years after he froze in ice, not 20. It's clear to the audience that he won't be running into any other young(ish) healthy men who also fought in WW2, so while Cap fought along side the Howling Commandos in the comics for decades, they can't do that here.

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It bugs me that Skye didn't check to be sure whether Koenig was possibly still alive, and that she didn't check him for any weapons that it might be handy to have with a would-be murderer running around.

It bugs me that Skye didn't check to be sure whether Koenig was possibly still alive, and that she didn't check him for any weapons that it might be handy to have with a would-be murderer running around.

Time was of the essence. She saw from the pad that Ward was wandering the base.

She's also not necessarily trained to know what to do in that situation. She's the agent with the least amount of formal training. She probably panicked.

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Captain America first came back in the 1960s, only 20 years after he fought in WW2. It was conceivable that he could run into other veterans of WW2 still active and fighting for SHIELD at that time. Comics time elasticity let those characters continue to live even though the idea that these middle-aged men fought in WW2 is now ridiculous.

But the movies brings Cap back 70 years after he froze in ice, not 20. It's clear to the audience that he won't be running into any other young(ish) healthy men who also fought in WW2, so while Cap fought along side the Howling Commandos in the comics for decades, they can't do that here.

About that same time they were thawing out Cap for the first time the original Nick Fury (white guy, used to be a Sgt. and led the Howling Commandos) was having some gray added to his temples and being recruited to be an agent of S.H.E.I.L.D., and all of that was going on during my early adolescence. (In later adolescence comic books took a back seat to other interests)

So it's still a little strange for me for Fury to be a black guy born about the same time I was.

Not as strange as if they'd used Hasselhoff for the Shaft remake though.

I think a lot of stuff is starting to be shot not just for wider screens but for bigger ones, so where in the past they might have zoomed in more on something important to the plot, or kept it on the screen longer, now it's become blink and you miss it.