Chapter 2: Page 14

Last week, you could see that in comparing the final page to the working draft, there were a couple changes made, mostly to Quinlan’s expression in the first panel. This week, Rachel and I ran into a similar but not altogether identical problem, where we get somewhat far along in the process and decide that some changes are needed to make everything fall into place.

The issues at play in the original draft that we ended up changing have a lot to do mostly with keeping the beats of the action flowing consistently across the panels. For example, the original draft had a bit too harsh of a transition to that third panel where Kenosh is raising his hand. A beat seemed to be missing between panels 2 and 3, which we ultimately solved by giving Kenosh a transition line to say that connected panels 2 and 3 a little better.

The bottom row also was tweaked, as you can see. Quinlan’s reaction was nice, but showing Kenosh hesitate with his hand up in he air, poised to strike, was a really important beat that we ultimately decided we just didn’t want to cut away from. We bumped Dakkan’s anticipatory reaction one panel earlier and gave Kenosh another panel of his own before he lowers his hand. The timing and intensity of the scene are maintained, though we unfortunately loose Quinlan’s reaction during the sequence. One can only show so much on the page, however, and it was a necessary sacrifice to make.

The week after next, Rachel and I will be at New York Comic Con, wandering around, attending panels, hanging out, and showing off Beyond the Western Deep to folks. Unfortunately, we didn’t have time this year to print up nice perfect-bound books (compounded with our printer of choice going out of business), but we’re still going to try and get some material printed up to show off. This of course means that the Chapter 1 books won’t be a purchasing option for a little bit longer, but we’re going to see what situations evolve from NYCC along that route.

It’s okay, Hardin; you’ve already smacked one person in the face with a dagger pommel. There will be more opportunities.

But on a more serious note, Dakkan does need to grow out of his hypocrisy, even if his reaction seems like the standard one for a Lutra citizen. The most pleasant people can shelter the nastiest of biases.

On an unrelated note, I believe it would be in bad taste to send any of the Ermehn a card saying, “It’s going to be a White Christmas!” Especially if the card was sent on the middle of July, but the weather in the wastes matches it anyway.

Good point, Hunter. Until I read the commentary under the page, I wasn’t sure whether or not Kenosh actually *had* struck Dak. But now that I’ve read the explanations and given the page a closer look, I think the cowering is powerful in and of itself.

I still like Kenosh and think he’s a great character, even if he does beat on his son from time to time. A little Klingon-y of him, I’d say. Then again, if such stern corporal punishment is relatively commonplace in their relationship, you’d think Dak never would have grown enough of a spine in the first place to argue with dear old dad the way he just was. The situation remains interesting. Must read more!

I take as Dakkan growing into his independent adult self. They’re both red blooded otters, and Dakkan’s not going to take it lying down forever! In fact, I’d say that him not reacting beyond a cringe shows how young he still is. But definitely ripe for personal development!

Ouch. So many unfortunate implications, though less than there usually would be for such a scene, namely since both of their reactions are more subtle than usual. Dakkan seems determined to apply logic only to his side– if he is not guilty since he is a descendant of those who were in the war, and not in the war himself, then none of the current Ermehn generation are guilty and deserve their suffering, because they have not been in the war.

At any rate, Quin is probably regretting being a third well here. Poor dude.

In this case, though, maybe that’s a good thing. As much as I like Kenosh and want Dak to mature a little, if Dakkan became a younger version of his father, that would be… depressing. The wars left enough embittered shells around already.

One thing I forgot to mention last week, which comes up again here, is Dakkan’s hypocrisy when it comes to judging history: he claims that the Lutren and Tamian can’t be held accountable for what their ancestors did and that the past is the past and they should just leave it behind, but also insists that the Ermehn fully deserve all the crap they’re going through because of the actions of their forefathers. It is infuriating, even if it’s coming from a character I love so much, and you can almost understand Kenosh preparing to slap him for it…

Speaking of which, this is a very powerful moment that raises a lot of questions about Kenosh’s parenting. Now, let’s make it clear that just because he prepares to hit his son and is implied to have done so in the past doesn’t make him a “bad” or abusive parent – corporal punishment is probably common in the medieval-style world of BTWD and like Wing pointed out, if he had gone above and beyond what was considered acceptable when it came to disciplining his kids, Dakkan probably wouldn’t have been so quick to argue so harshly with him. Still, it is sad to see that he sometimes brings himself down to do such things to his son, and the image of Dak wincing in preparation for the strike is heartbreaking :( I really do hope to find out more about the matter.

I was indeed sad to see the Quin’s reaction shot go from the finished page, but you may be right that it was more important to show the development of events between Ken and Dak properly, Maybe it can be made up for in the next one?

But the most interesting thing about today’s page is actually your information about New York Comic Con. The one that’s held at Javits Center Oct. 10-13? Could you provide some more information on that please, and I might get back to you about it…

Dakkan has lost the thread of his own argument. He seems to be so angry he’s not listening to himself. Can you imagine Dakkan back in the chapter one war meeting saying the words “…let the ermehn suffer..” and meaning it.

Let them suffer. If I was Kenosh I’d be more than a little miffed too, hearing my son say that.

You’ve done a really great job on Dakkan’s expression in the forth panel. He’s wincing, he knows he’s about to be struck, but he almost looks resigned to it more than afraid or anything. Like he’s perfectly willing to accept a smack in defense of what he believes to be right.

The problem here I think is one that we also face in the real world. Wars have done tons of stuff like what they’re discussing now, and old hatreds can simmer even years or decades after the wars are over. It’s like nowawadays and in the 90s and 2000s, we’re still feeling repercussions of decisions we made in the Cold War, decisions made out of fear and irrational hatred of the other side.

Kenosh’s close up doesn’t make it seem like he softens up after seeing his son’s reaction, so I have to wonder if he stops because it would be wrong, even in their world, or because he sees that the threat alone was enough to silence Dakkan.

Dakkan’s wrong about the Ermehn deserving their fate. Many Ermehn want a peaceful solution- but then there’s the ones like Hardin, willing to do terrible things for- Justice? Or is it Revenge? Either way, his actions won’t justify the results of his actions. Then there are the Ermehn who fall in the middle- who do bad things out of desperation, like trying to steal food and valuables. I think Quin made the right choice to spare them.

But remember, what Dakkan knows he only knows from the stories people tell, maybe from what he’s learned in battle school or wherever he was trained. Stories and word of mouth are very powerful weapons. Even nowadays, it’s so hard to differentiate truth from lie even with video cameras and 24 hour news networks. Furthermore, the only Ermehn Dakkan’s met have done nothing to challenge his view of them. Also, he’s tired and cranky. His view is still wrong, but Dakkan himself isn’t a bad person. People are like that. All people are grey- and Dakkan and Kenosh are prime examples of this

While I’m siding with Kenosh on this particular issue, he isn’t right about everything. Clearly, he’s hit Dakkan before- which is NEVER OK- look at the way Dakkan flinches, then watches his father’s hand nervously. Corporal punishment does not equal hitting your son to silence him because you disagree. Clearly, it’s happened before, frequently enough that Dakkan’s come to expect it.

(And remember Dakkan’s comment about how he hates travelling with his father? At the time I thought it meant they argued, but now…) No wonder Dakkan isn’t willing to listen to Kenosh. Kenosh has compassion for the Ermehn and feels its his and Dakkan’s duty to right the wrongs- and yet, he abuses his son simply for disagreeing with him. I’m sure Dakkan has noticed that particular hypocrisy. Dakkan is wrong, but hitting him will not only fail to change his mind, but also drive him away and give him reason to resent/ignore/not listen to his father. Which is exactly what’s happening.

Dakkan’s still young and naive. I get a strong feeling that his stance on the matter will change as the story goes on and he learns more about the outside world than what he hears from his peers. Maybe an encounter with other Ermehn that don’t fit the stories he’s heard? Maybe a parallel can be drawn with the way the Squirrels and the Lutren used to view each other?

I think it’s very cool that you *the creators* fleshed out your characters and put flaws into all of them! Usually good characters don’t have flaws this apparent, and it’s rather refreshing. I read the entire comic today, and boy have I been missing out. I love all three protagonists despite their flaws and wait (im)patiently to see what happens next!

And welcome to the community! If you ever need people to ramble or make silly jokes with after discussing the moral complications of fuzzy animals killing and enslaving each other, all of us will be happy to oblige. It’s what we’re here for.

That is a good analysis of the situation, but you have to remember that Kenosh is a veteran soldier and used to harsh life. He probably doesn’t see physical discipline as a big deal – to him a good slap is a way to say “please” and “no thank you”.

Kenosh is also from an older generation, which may have accepted such behaviors (i.e. spanking is now labeled as abuse whereas in the old days, it was not).

As it sits right now, it would seem like a hint as to the relation between Dakkan and Kenosh. But, considering they are the only Lutren we actually are familiar with, we don’t know if Kenosh’s raising an arm is considered proper in their society. We also don’t know how disrespectful Dakkan’s outburst may be in their philosophy, especially towards an elder–and especially towards an elder that is obviously former military. And we don’t know how much a generation clash there is between them…and we don’t know if Lutren value strict subordination in offspring until a certain age. The Canid, I can see them being a lot more rigid but..sea-faring societies are often just as rough.

That, or, like most fathers at some point, he simply lost his temper due to what he considered a very unfair and prejudiced view of his son’s, and considered slapping him. I don’t think he would hit his son merely for disagreeing with him, or Dak would probably never have been so outspoken in his views to begin with, but tempers ran high in this conversation which followed a very taxing night where they got into a fight with the bandits. And in the end, he stayed his paw and understood it was pointless and unfair to hit him.

I’m not saying that Kenosh is totally in the right here, or that it wasn’t too harsh of him to try and strike Dak, nor that it doesn’t imply he might’ve punished him corporally in the past, but I think you may be too harsh on him here.

Then again, maybe Kenosh only stayed his paw because Quin was there, and he didn’t want that kind of dirty family laudry aired quite so publicly.

And hey, look! Only two more comment posts after this one, and we’ll have hit 50 for the first time (I believe) ever in “BTWD” history! Let’s see if we can do it! (But no Salmon Tomfoolery to artificially pad the count, sorry.)

That’s possible with Kenosh, but that doesn’t feel right for his character to me, mainly since he doesn’t seem to care what others think to an extent. If he was very concerned about appearance, he would keep his unpopular opinion about Ermehn quiet. Plus, in older times, corporal punishment wasn’t something talked about cheerily, but it wasn’t anything that was ashamed of, either (though it’s not quite corporal punishment that almost happens in this page, but that’s been covered in previous comments already.) And long-time-friend-of-Dakkan Quin would have probably known about something like that already.

I’m not saying that Kenosh doesn’t care what others think, but yeah, you know what point I’m struggling to get across. This whole thing reads like “oh god so tired and stressed and naturally grumpy and son is spouting personal, ignorant things that anger me because he’s feeling the same way and why can I not just smack him stop talking. …wait, bad idea. I am an adult; time to stop.”

(On a side note, I’m genuinely surprised I started a memetic joke that refuses to die.)

On the character page, it mentions that Dakkan is far from the discplined soldier his father wants him to be. For a serious military-type like Kenosh, this probably caused enough of a strain on their relationship over the years that he has no qualms about hitting Dak.

Also, just because Dakkan’s been abused before doesn’t mean he’s going to keep his opinions to himself. He’s a strong-willed and hot-headed guy, and being struck would only cause his resentment toward Kenosh to grow and would likely cause him to disagree even more strongly.

Two notes- one, Rogue is my 11yo sister who cannot seem to figure out how to take out my email and put in her own, secondly as of today it’s been a year and two months since I found the thing and I am just as hopelessly obsessed/in love with the story and the characters as I was then. This was where I hit the end of my archive bingeing and had to get used to //waiting// between pages. (Wasn’t easy then, ain’t easy now, but it’s worth every second, every week.)