We will never know why he retire this time. He really wanted to retire(because this was the plan since he return or bad useless hopeless team/car or changed F1), Lewis signing surprised him, he wanted to continue with another team and he couldn't find any. Did he really search for another team after Lewis signed with MGP or not. There were many rumors as you know.
Why, why you did this to us. Bad,bad Michael.

Whatever the reason, I for one thought it was the right time. Overall Michael drove nicely this year and can hold his head up high, especially after his last race, but he has declined and is not getting any younger. Its little things like sometimes making errors on his hot quali lap, not nailing every apex when he needed to, silly little mistakes like in Hungary. We've seen it time and time again where those sort of errors creep in more and more as a driver gets older. Even though on his day he was still able to mix it high up the grid, I believe those days would have become fewer and fewer in number.

21 years is a long time in F1, and I really couldn't have asked for any more.

We will never know why he retire this time. He really wanted to retire(because this was the plan since he return or bad useless hopeless team/car or changed F1), Lewis signing surprised him, he wanted to continue with another team and he couldn't find any. Did he really search for another team after Lewis signed with MGP or not. There were many rumors as you know.Why, why you did this to us. Bad,bad Michael.

I think he was quite open about the reasons of his retirement. He has if I remember correctly stated when he came back that he plans on a 2-3 season stint. That the team has not lived up to expectations plays a role too. That the signing of LH forced him into retirement is a myth that has been substantially rebutted by both himself and the team. When the situation with LH got serious the team has asked him to make a decision, and he has. If he wanted to go on with anothor team, I am sure there are more than one that would've been happy to sign him. He is definitely not a sim driver, that is well known, and development is heavily simulation reliant nowadays, and Merc has the best one on the grid. F1 is altogether different than what it used to be when he was king of the hill. He has shown he is still fast, but he does not need to prove himself in any way, and struggling on for another 2 seasons was not an option for him it seems, and he all but stated that he feels too old for that. There is no secret here, IMHO. I am really sad to see him go, but as his fan, I would not wish him the struggle if he does not feel at ease with it. It would be a selfish thing to do, he has given me too much to ask for more, so I wish him well, he is a great driver, no matter what. If he says its time to move on, I will move on.

I'd like to add that F1 is hard. 7 world titles wouldn't be such an achievement if it wasn't. There was no guarantee of Merc providing the goods, nor any right that they should. Michael tried with Merc but it didn't work out. Maybe 10 years ago, with testing and another 3 years things could have worked out differently, but those aren't the circumstances.

Don't think so. He would've used to much time to get back up to speed I think, so when Brawn's dominance was over, he would've had Barrichello-ish results.

Imho his heavy bike crash (and neck injury) in early 2009 was a major factor of Schumi's relative week performance(compared to his pre 2007 performance). so if e had a contract to 09, imho they wasn't ride the bike then.

There is no doubt in my mind that the team being totally crap was the main decider. You can tell from his latest interviews he lost all faith in them, and doesnt believe they even KNOW how to improve.

That could be viewed as a failure of the much touted leadership skills of Michael Schumacher, after all he took Ferrari from also rans and moulded them in to one of the greatest dynasties morotsport has ever seen. Much praise was heaped on Schumacher for these accomplishments at Ferrari, can anyone tell us what happened this time? I suggest that never getting the upper hand on Rosberg had something to do with it.

Well, they need(ed) to disinfect the team from Jaque's and Craig's handywork. This team has been badly BARbarized in the past decade. They still have BARbie though. With the JV spirit gone, they will do well next year.

Well, they need(ed) to disinfect the team from Jaque's and Craig's handywork. This team has been badly BARbarized in the past decade. They still have BARbie though. With the JV spirit gone, they will do well next year.

(sorry Nico)

I do not think that Schumacher succeeded in the strange task you are putting forward. Rather, Schumacher was BARbarized himself.

And, if one succeeds to accomplish that strange task you name with the Brackley team, it will be Lewis Hamilton. Schumacher was not strong enough for that task.

Lastly, it had nothing to do with the spirit of JV, who had won not only the WDC in F1 but also in CART, the Indy 500 and F3000. Not a bad record and one of the very few drivers to win F1 and CART championships, as well as the F1 WDC and the Indy 500. Michael always knew his place and stayed away from racing in other series - he would have been barbecued in Indy racing....

Well, for someone who supposedly had extraordinary developmental skills, his were sorely lacking over the past 3 years. Lest we forget, the driver is the most important part of the equation, it's his ass in the seat. A 7 x WDC should have been able to convey to the team what was or was not right with the car and adapt to its characteristics. Afterall, he was able to do the same at Ferrari, was he not? Those that lay the blame squarely on Mercedes' shoulders are IMHO wrong. Merecedes is better off without MS. Hamilton's tenure with the Silver Arrows should be a very good one.

There is no doubt in my mind that the team being totally crap was the main decider. You can tell from his latest interviews he lost all faith in them, and doesnt believe they even KNOW how to improve.

If he lost all faith in the Brackley team then I hope for Michael that Lewis will never be successful with Mercedes GP. If Lewis leads them to success it would throw an interesting light on Schumacher's capabilities.

I do not think that Schumacher succeeded in the strange task you are putting forward. Rather, Schumacher was BARbarized himself.

And, if one succeeds to accomplish that strange task you name with the Brackley team, it will be Lewis Hamilton. Schumacher was not strong enough for that task.

Lastly, it had nothing to do with the spirit of JV, who had won not only the WDC in F1 but also in CART, the Indy 500 and F3000. Not a bad record and one of the very few drivers to win F1 and CART championships, as well as the F1 WDC and the Indy 500. Michael always knew his place and stayed away from racing in other series - he would have been barbecued in Indy racing....

This team, ever since JV and Pollock laid hands on it, is super-cursed. It took some years for Brawn to build it up. NR and MS has fallen into that trap. Rome was not built in three days. I doubt you would know about that though. There is only so much you can do with what these two have left behind. LH will reap the benefits, as you say,at least I hope so. First and foremost, I root for Brawn to succed at last. JV was a heck of a driver, but as soon as he tried to emulate MS, he crumbled and fell. He had more time, he was young, he had the reigns, and he proved to be lacking in some attributes needed to succeed like MS did. But hey, nice try, keep it up.

This team, ever since JV and Pollock laid hands on it, is super-cursed. It took some years for Brawn to build it up. NR and MS has fallen into that trap. Rome was not built in three days. I doubt you would know about that though. There is only so much you can do with what these two have left behind. LH will reap the benefits, as you say,at least I hope so. First and foremost, I root for Brawn to succed at last. JV was a heck of a driver, but as soon as he tried to emulate MS, he crumbled and fell. He had more time, he was young, he had the reigns, and he proved to be lacking in some attributes needed to succeed like MS did. But hey, nice try, keep it up.

The Tyrrell team was defunct for quite a while before it became BAR, and before that not successful for almost 20 years. So check you stats.

On the other hand, Brawn GP was the WDC team the year before Schumacher laid his hands on it. Since Schumacher the team has been super-cursed.

LH will reap the benefits, as you say,at least I hope so.

The last straw for Schumi fans: if Lewis becomes successful with Mercedes GP the legend will be:"He is only successful because Michael build up the team for him!"

This team, ever since JV and Pollock laid hands on it, is super-cursed. It took some years for Brawn to build it up. NR and MS has fallen into that trap. Rome was not built in three days. I doubt you would know about that though. There is only so much you can do with what these two have left behind. LH will reap the benefits, as you say,at least I hope so. First and foremost, I root for Brawn to succed at last. JV was a heck of a driver, but as soon as he tried to emulate MS, he crumbled and fell. He had more time, he was young, he had the reigns, and he proved to be lacking in some attributes needed to succeed like MS did. But hey, nice try, keep it up.

I wonder where Jacques would have went then if he did not go to BAR.... Stay at Williams? McLaren?

...Lastly, it had nothing to do with the spirit of JV, who had won not only the WDC in F1 but also in CART, the Indy 500 and F3000. Not a bad record and one of the very few drivers to win F1 and CART championships, as well as the F1 WDC and the Indy 500. Michael always knew his place and stayed away from racing in other series - he would have been barbecued in Indy racing....

That's just a silly argument with no basis whatsoever (exept your usual sneaky comments about MS)

Nigel Mansell dominated Indycar in 1993.Alex Zanardi, Justin Wilson, Sebastian Bourdais, just to name a few, mediocre F1 drivers who excelled in US racing.

You really think MS in his first career would be beaten in other series?Your irrational obssesion with Michael is kind of worrying.

Tell me this, why didn't Senna compete in other series? I guess he knew his place as well...

I find extraordinary that technical errors and some degree ineptness in operations are being laid to Schumacher's doorsteps. That's mighty assumption they even listen to him religiously in the same cooperative spirit as in the past and other team. Unfortunately this blaming theory is not explaining why W01 under influence of Mess. Button/Barr., the car was not a very good one.

Time went one, and stubborn people such as I am might actually lay a claim, that less tire saga, and error on diffuser, W03 could have been a contender; despite that some residual issues such as rate of continuous development during a season probably remain.

Impact of instability and reduction of resources under RRA, including uncertainty if there is tomorrow (CA conditions) played crucial, and detrimental to stability roles on mood at Brackley, there is no doubt about it and I do not have to be there to take that into consideration. Lastly, everyone in the paddock was surprised by tire properties; factually it was a discovery after a car was built and track ready. It has taken some time to learn what is needed to get most of the rubber, but it doesn't automatically followed, that without major re-design one could harmonize and control tire with the car they had.

I am sure that I can continue, but what's the point? Surely they will go ahead, and Hamilton has nothing to lose, as I expect that any sign of success it will go to his credit, whereas failure to someone else’s. Such is a life.

I agree the car looked very promising at the beginning of this year. If that was not a sign of moving into the right direction with MSC still on board then I don't know what other metrics are there to consider.

I do not think that Schumacher succeeded in the strange task you are putting forward. Rather, Schumacher was BARbarized himself.

And, if one succeeds to accomplish that strange task you name with the Brackley team, it will be Lewis Hamilton. Schumacher was not strong enough for that task.

Lastly, it had nothing to do with the spirit of JV, who had won not only the WDC in F1 but also in CART, the Indy 500 and F3000. Not a bad record and one of the very few drivers to win F1 and CART championships, as well as the F1 WDC and the Indy 500. Michael always knew his place and stayed away from racing in other series - he would have been barbecued in Indy racing....

That could be viewed as a failure of the much touted leadership skills of Michael Schumacher, after all he took Ferrari from also rans and moulded them in to one of the greatest dynasties morotsport has ever seen. Much praise was heaped on Schumacher for these accomplishments at Ferrari, can anyone tell us what happened this time? I suggest that never getting the upper hand on Rosberg had something to do with it.

Well, for someone who supposedly had extraordinary developmental skills, his were sorely lacking over the past 3 years. Lest we forget, the driver is the most important part of the equation, it's his ass in the seat. A 7 x WDC should have been able to convey to the team what was or was not right with the car and adapt to its characteristics. Afterall, he was able to do the same at Ferrari, was he not? Those that lay the blame squarely on Mercedes' shoulders are IMHO wrong. Merecedes is better off without MS. Hamilton's tenure with the Silver Arrows should be a very good one.

I sense sarcasm in these posts. Are you two implying that Michael had no role to play at all in the revival of Ferrari except in the cockpit on a Saturday and Sunday of a race ? Or that he had no developmental or leadership skills at all in the first place ? Which one is it ?

Well, for someone who supposedly had extraordinary developmental skills, his were sorely lacking over the past 3 years. Lest we forget, the driver is the most important part of the equation, it's his ass in the seat. A 7 x WDC should have been able to convey to the team what was or was not right with the car and adapt to its characteristics. Afterall, he was able to do the same at Ferrari, was he not? Those that lay the blame squarely on Mercedes' shoulders are IMHO wrong. Merecedes is better off without MS. Hamilton's tenure with the Silver Arrows should be a very good one.

You mean like Nico did in second half of the season? Oh, wait he couldn't. Like Michael. Shit car is shit car, it was worse than STR. If Lewis has the same car I doubt he will do better. Did Alonso did better in 2008/2009? Did he adapt to his car characteristics? Was he right with the car? And he was young. So much BS, jj.Oh, yeah, lets blame Michael , car was supper fast ,but he and Nico couldn't do anything with it. They fail, not the car. This is why everyone think this was his best season since he return and car was a dog. Stupid them. I guess you miss most of 2012 races. Ask Lewis supporters , how many of them want to see Lewis driving W03? I guess not many.

I sense sarcasm in these posts. Are you two implying that Michael had no role to play at all in the revival of Ferrari except in the cockpit on a Saturday and Sunday of a race ? Or that he had no developmental or leadership skills at all in the first place ? Which one is it ?

Well I don't speak for jj2728 only for myself. My question is very simple, considering Schumacher's legendary car development skills and his highly touted team building skills why was he not able to develop the car in to a winner and build the team around him as his fans say he did in the past. I suggest that one reason for Schumacher's failure in this area was his inability to get the upper hand on Rosberg. It was almost as if Schumacher could not get on with the job until he got himself in front of Rosberg, that never happened, as a result Schumacher never got untracked never got rolling, spent his three years chasing Rosberg. Had Schumacher be able to stamp his authority on the team straight away by consistently bettering Rosberg then things might have been very different. Perhaps not having the best car and a loyal #2 and getting bested race in and race out by his "journeyman" teammate was more of a challenge then Schumacher expected. Not much of an accomplishment to better a teammate that is forced to play second fiddle all the time as it was at Ferrari. It is a different story when you have to beat your teammate fair and square in a straight fight on the track. Believe me I thought Schumacher would do much better in his comback then he actually did. The question is what happened? Before anyone blames the car for the ten thousandth time let me add Rosberg had the same car and managed much better with it.

Believe me I thought Schumacher would do much better in his comback then he actually did. The question is what happened? Before anyone blames the car for the ten thousandth time let me add Rosberg had the same car and managed much better with it.

When Nico managed better when car turn into dog? Second year they were equal. Also Nico didn't start well 2012.

Am i the only one thinking, that the driver´s contribution to the development of the car changed "a little bit " after F1-rules changed from unlimited testing to barely any testing at all?

Definitely so. Simulation is king now, and Mercedes aren't very good at it. When they come along with an exhaust system that bakes the rear tyres at 115 degrees C there's nothing any driver, Schumacher/Alonso/Hamilton/whoever can do about it. Back in the day these kind of problems would have been discovered in testing before they had chance to make their way to a GP.

Am i the only one thinking, that the driver´s contribution to the development of the car changed "a little bit " after F1-rules changed from unlimited testing to barely any testing at all?

Yeah and I don't know of any drivers who are responsible for designing the cars' exhausts or are responsible for the aerodynamic flaws of a car. The driver only gives feedback in order to understand for the team what he needs, how he would like the car to behave etc. But Mercedes didn't even get to that point anyway their car has always been missing something. Actually what I realised from this year and I may be totally wrong about it, Schumacher had an oversteery car at the start of the year as he wanted to and the qualifying performance was pretty good. But due to tire issues and the lack of downforce in the rear I think it was discussed several times that they started to remove downforce from the front. From there on i got lost with the W03 and what they tried to accomplish, but regardless I think Mercedes came close to what Schumacher likes only for the first races of 2012. And the outcome was pretty good i guess. From there on blaming the driver(s) for a car that has DESIGN flaws seems pretty pathetic to me but in this thread we have seen all sorts of crap.

Also Nico did better because of simulators, he test all the time where MS not so much, if we believe the rumors that Michael have headache there. If you test you prepare the car before the race weekend, if Nico do it , he for sure prepare car for his liking/driving. Michael go to race weekend and he start from Nico settings and he change that to his liking which take time, where Nico start from the get go. This is important point.
Also you can give feedback, but important is if there is somebody to use this feedback. I don't think in Michael case they used his feedback.
Because he is so lousy, this is why Pirelli want him for test driver? Because according to them he was the guy who give them the best feedback about the tyres.

Also Nico did better because of simulators, he test all the time where MS not so much, if we believe the rumors that Michael have headache there. If you test you prepare the car before the race weekend, if Nico do it , he for sure prepare car for his liking/driving. Michael go to race weekend and he start from Nico settings and he change that to his liking which take time, where Nico start from the get go. This is important point.

So one reason Nico did better is because Schumacher was unable to participate in an important aspect of developing the car because of headaches? Is there any press to show the story to be valid, sounds like excuse making to me.

Well I don't speak for jj2728 only for myself. My question is very simple, considering Schumacher's legendary car development skills and his highly touted team building skills why was he not able to develop the car in to a winner and build the team around him as his fans say he did in the past. I suggest that one reason for Schumacher's failure in this area was his inability to get the upper hand on Rosberg. It was almost as if Schumacher could not get on with the job until he got himself in front of Rosberg, that never happened, as a result Schumacher never got untracked never got rolling, spent his three years chasing Rosberg. Had Schumacher be able to stamp his authority on the team straight away by consistently bettering Rosberg then things might have been very different.

This seems like quite a plausible explanation. And good to see the answer to my question, you do think he had legendary car development skills at some time, thats quite a revelation.

Perhaps not having the best car and a loyal #2 and getting bested race in and race out by his journeyman" teammate was more of a challenge then Schumacher expected. Not much of an accomplishment to better a teammate that is forced to play second fiddle all the time as it was at Ferrari. It is a different story when you have to beat your teammate fair and square in a straight fight on the track.

Why do I get the feeling that this is part of a standard header / footer for all your posts in this thread.

This seems like quite a plausible explanation. And good to see the answer to my question, you do think he had legendary car development skills at some time, thats quite a revelation.

Why do I get the feeling that this is part of a standard header / footer for all your posts in this thread.

let it go. If he really is a F1 fan(not so sure about that though), then MS has made his best fifteen years miserable, while we got the icing on the cake for nearly two decades. He is entitled to spew froth as much as he wants to, personally, I feel sorry for them. He(they) put his(their) money on the wrong horse. Not a rewarding feeling, I assume.

So one reason Nico did better is because Schumacher was unable to participate in an important aspect of developing the car because of headaches? Is there any press to show the story to be valid, sounds like excuse making to me.

You are here ,longer than me , and you didn't hear that story in last 2-3 years? That Michael didn't like simulators? And it is not only for car development, it is also for preparing for next GP.

If he lost all faith in the Brackley team then I hope for Michael that Lewis will never be successful with Mercedes GP. If Lewis leads them to success it would throw an interesting light on Schumacher's capabilities.

it's all very simply, actually.

There are no testings anymore. The engineers are 99,9% responsible for the development of a car.

BAR/Honda was always crap, so there is no driver input could make it work with the current regulations.

In Ferrari days, Schumacher could test with the car and help the engineers to develop it. Now such thing is forbidden.

If Mercedes turns good next year, it won't be because of Hamilton's feedback but for the new engineering staff making it work.

let it go. If he really is a F1 fan(not so sure about that though), then MS has made his best fifteen years miserable, while we got the icing on the cake for nearly two decades. He is entitled to spew froth as much as he wants to, personally, I feel sorry for them. He(they) put his(their) money on the wrong horse. Not a rewarding feeling, I assume.

So basically what you are saying is that if someone is not a MS fan then he's not a fan of F1 and that life has been miserable for said fan for the past 15 or so years. Correct? I'd say your assumptions are fairly innaccurate.

Well I don't speak for jj2728 only for myself. My question is very simple, considering Schumacher's legendary car development skills and his highly touted team building skills why was he not able to develop the car in to a winner and build the team around him as his fans say he did in the past. I suggest that one reason for Schumacher's failure in this area was his inability to get the upper hand on Rosberg. It was almost as if Schumacher could not get on with the job until he got himself in front of Rosberg, that never happened, as a result Schumacher never got untracked never got rolling, spent his three years chasing Rosberg. Had Schumacher be able to stamp his authority on the team straight away by consistently bettering Rosberg then things might have been very different. Perhaps not having the best car and a loyal #2 and getting bested race in and race out by his "journeyman" teammate was more of a challenge then Schumacher expected. Not much of an accomplishment to better a teammate that is forced to play second fiddle all the time as it was at Ferrari. It is a different story when you have to beat your teammate fair and square in a straight fight on the track. Believe me I thought Schumacher would do much better in his comback then he actually did. The question is what happened? Before anyone blames the car for the ten thousandth time let me add Rosberg had the same car and managed much better with it.

I'd say that's an accurate assessment, but it will ring hollow amongst the fan base. And I too was of the belief that he would do much better than 1 podium in 3 years' time. Sure he had a run of bad luck, but that happens to every driver at one time or another. Then there was the blame game, first it was the Pirellis, then it was the car, then a combination of tyre/car. Anything except the man behind the wheel.

I'd say that's an accurate assessment, but it will ring hollow amongst the fan base. And I too was of the belief that he would do much better than 1 podium in 3 years' time. Sure he had a run of bad luck, but that happens to every driver at one time or another. Then there was the blame game, first it was the Pirellis, then it was the car, then a combination of tyre/car. Anything except the man behind the wheel.

Funny as always, talking to much ,but not answering. Who was worse Michael or the car? Who get worse in 2012. Only you and Slate say it is Michael. And we know why you said that. It is not surprise to us. Same old story from you.

So one reason Nico did better is because Schumacher was unable to participate in an important aspect of developing the car because of headaches? Is there any press to show the story to be valid, sounds like excuse making to me.

So basically what you are saying is that if someone is not a MS fan then he's not a fan of F1 and that life has been miserable for said fan for the past 15 or so years. Correct? I'd say your assumptions are fairly innaccurate.

No, but when the only interest a person seems to show in the sport is constantly denigrating a drivers achievements over 21 years and stating that a 7 time world champion in your opinion 'was never that good' it does beg questions. Your view of Schumacher over his whole career is anything but balanced.

You don't have to rate him as the greatest driver of all time, or even like him, but to have witnessed some of his classic drives from the 90's and simply state he was 'never that good' makes me wonder if you actually watched any of those races at all.

No, but when the only interest a person seems to show in the sport is constantly denigrating a drivers achievements over 21 years and stating that a 7 time world champion in your opinion 'was never that good' it does beg questions. Your view of Schumacher over his whole career is anything but balanced.

You don't have to rate him as the greatest driver of all time, or even like him, but to have witnessed some of his classic drives from the 90's and simply state he was 'never that good' makes me wonder if you actually watched any of those races at all.

Of course I did and I was at some of those races, it's MHO that he was at his best in the mid 90s. Do I think he was a great driver? The be all end all of F1 drivers? No. He was good, but he had the tools around to assist him. So I don't think he was as good as some would elevate him to be. His lacklustre performance over the past 3 years are testament, IMHO, to that.

So basically what you are saying is that if someone is not a MS fan then he's not a fan of F1 and that life has been miserable for said fan for the past 15 or so years. Correct? I'd say your assumptions are fairly innaccurate.

Basically, I don't think so, no. Actually, though, some of you here seem to be exactly in that situation, yes.

"You either die hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."

I personally think it's great that people have very strong feelings, positive and negative, about MSC as a driver and a man. It's also great that this second career of his has made a lot of people to warm up to him.

Actually, though, some of you here seem to be exactly in that situation, yes.

Possibly some yes, but don't count me in those that are. Simply because I refuse to toe the line that Schumacher is the greatest and can do no wrong that does not mean in the slightest that I have not enjoyed F1 any bit less.