Temascos posted:

And what MOTIVATED Capcom to farm out DMC to a developer like Ninja Theory anyway? I loved Heavenly Sword but I cannot fathom why they would be the prime developers for a flagship series, one that Capcom desperately needs to keep running.

Inafune. Prior to leaving Capcom, Inafune was very vocal about how Japanese developers were failing and believed that the future of gaming was western developers and Japanese producers. He's the one who encouraged this, and the developers themselves have said as much. This is the reason why you got western developers for a lot of other Capcom titles too and Capcom trying to publish things like Dark Void.

ImpAtom posted:

Itagaki. Prior to leaving Capcom, Itagaki was very vocal about how Japanese developers were failing and believed that the future of gaming was western developers and Japanese producers. He's the one who encouraged this.

God, but why did they have to pick loving Ninja Theory of all people. Those guys are awful.

Their sole claim to fame has been their precious mocap technology. Their actual games have been tepid at best.

The other thing about God of War's combat is that while it has a much lower skill threshold than DMC, it's got more meat to it than some people think--so while you can just get away with triangle-triangle-triangle if you're boring, you can also remember to use other moves in the right context that make fights end faster and look cool as hell. It's simple, but it remains fun and satisfying. Compare this to, like, the latest Castlevania (which I did enjoy), which tries to do God of War and does -okay- but the combat really doesn't feel very directed or satisfying in the same way.

Oxxidation posted:

God, but why did they have to pick loving Ninja Theory of all people. Those guys are awful.

Their sole claim to fame has been their precious mocap technology. Their actual games have been tepid at best.

That's harder to answer. The likely answer is that it was because of Heavenly Sword and work on DmC started before Enslaved became a complete sales bomb.

Pesky Splinter posted:

Would it have really been that difficult to call it something else? It could at least then stand on its own merits rather than allow itself to be compared to the other DMC games.

Established franchises tend to do better for Capcom, and after several high-profile burns, they've retreated heavily into that. It's why we've got things like Dead Rising: Off the Record and Ultimate MvC3.

Temascos posted:

All this talk about using the Unreal engine puzzles me, didn't Capcom make a brand new engine for DMC4 then just scrap it? They should have passed it on to Ninja Theory so they could have a game running at 60 FPS!

The engine is called NT Framework and it wasn't scrapped, it has been used for other Capcom games such as Lost Planet. The engine is PC native and Capcom then ports out the games to each platform. They didn't give it to Ninja Theory because it is an in-house technology that Capcom is extremely protective of.

ImpAtom posted:

Established franchises tend to do better for Capcom, and after several high-profile burns, they've retreated heavily into that. It's why we've got things like Dead Rising: Off the Record and Ultimate MvC3.

That's understandable I guess.

Speaking of MvC3, I've never really been into these sort of games, but drat. Vergil.

ImpAtom posted:

Itagaki. Prior to leaving Capcom, Itagaki was very vocal about how Japanese developers were failing and believed that the future of gaming was western developers and Japanese producers. He's the one who encouraged this, and the developers themselves have said as much. This is the reason why you got western developers for a lot of other Capcom titles too and Capcom trying to publish things like Dark Void.

...but then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you!

Grimey Drawer

notZaar posted:

The engine is called NT Framework and it wasn't scrapped, it has been used for other Capcom games such as Lost Planet. The engine is PC native and Capcom then ports out the games to each platform. They didn't give it to Ninja Theory because it is an in-house technology that Capcom is extremely protective of.

With good reason, I suppose- you would need something this good to make Legendary Dark Knight mode from 4 possible. I can't believe how well it runs!

Opendork posted:

notZaar posted:

The engine is called NT Framework and it wasn't scrapped, it has been used for other Capcom games such as Lost Planet. The engine is PC native and Capcom then ports out the games to each platform. They didn't give it to Ninja Theory because it is an in-house technology that Capcom is extremely protective of.

Oh okay, my bad on that one. But surely they could profit from selling it, much like Epic does with the Unreal Engine? Maybe not to the same extent but still, its a perfectly servicable engine for multiple platforms and developers to use, and they would still publish the game anyway!

Just a heads up : the name of the engine is MT Framework, not NT Framework. And yeah, they just don't loan that sucker out to ANYONE.

On the topic of DmC, I'm hesitant to just start making GBS threads on it, but I can't say I'm not extremely disappointed in the direction the series seems to be taking. For some reason I fooled myself into thinking DMC4 was a prototype for a multi-character DMC and that we were due for a return to the old ways of Capcom action games, where you can select from a stable of characters to run through the game. After all, DMC4 worked just as well gameplay-wise whether you played Nero or Dante, and save for some gimmicky bullshit you they could have just removed or worked around, you could have played the entire game as either of them, no problem. Can you imagine a DMC game with a Dante/Nero/Vergil/Lady/Trish character select screen? I can, and let me tell you, it's loving beautiful. Instead we got... not that. So, disappointment. That said, the new game does look promising in some ways, and it's not like there isn't a swarm of negative feedback regarding the changes to the franchise already. Capcom knows there's love for the old design and style out there.

ImpAtom posted:

Established franchises tend to do better for Capcom, and after several high-profile burns, they've retreated heavily into that. It's why we've got things like Dead Rising: Off the Record and Ultimate MvC3.

While this is mostly true it's not really the case for UMvC3. Fighting games are getting really popular again for some reason and it's been industry standard to "patch" fighting games every year or so with a few new characters and balance changes.

This isn't about re-releasing established franchises, it's about tons of players demanding balance changes and stuff and capcom basically going "sure, but only if we can sell it to you for the same price again!" This wouldn't fly in any other genre but fighting game players actually embrace patchless games because the average opinion is that we normally don't play the games long enough to understand their true balance. Case in point is Deejay now being considered upper-mid to high tier instead of lower-mid like he used to be. This recently changed over the last year or so and I'm not talking about Deejay in SSF4, I'm referring to Deejay in Street Fighter 2: Super Turbo.

Then again if Seth Killian is to be trusted then UMvC3 was never actually planned and all of that stuff was supposed to be DLC until the tsunami hit and ruined everything.

when you think about it...i'm the first girl you ever spent the night with

Grimey Drawer

While I don't feel I've seen enough combat to make a judgement on that, based on what I have seen, I'm seriously skeptical of the game. Devil May Cry 3 and 4 had superb, fluid combat and it felt great to play and offered this crazy skill ceiling and it was so rewarding to become 'good' at it. I can't think of any other games besides those 2 that have really offered that experience and several have tried (Although I've heard and seen good things about Bayonetta. I haven't got to touch Bayonetta yet, and I really want to!). Looking at the trailers, it looks like it'll play like God of War, and if it does, I bury the game and cease acknowledging the existence of DmC past 4.

The main reason I liked Dante as a character was that he seemed to know just how over the top and bullshit he was, I really hope they don't try to make this new Dante all serious and brooding, that would just loving ruin it for me. Also that look of his and the lead designer is just loving pathetic.

...but then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you!

Grimey Drawer

Allow me, for a moment, the indulgence of doing a little armchair quarterbacking on Capcom's behalf here:

What the gently caress are you guys doing? Handing off one of your flagship IP's whose primary attraction is the tight-n'-fast action ... to a developer known for middling-to-lovely action games? Why didn't you develop this in house? Too expensive? Too tied up doing other things? What is it? If you're gonna hand it off, at least give it to Platinum or the Ninja Gaiden people- Christ, we have another DMC2 on our hands here! Didn't you learn your lesson the first time on that? You guys don't need to do it again gently caress WHAT ARE YOU DOING THROW THE BALL

Monkey Fracas posted:

Allow me, for a moment, the indulgence of doing a little armchair quarterbacking on Capcom's behalf here:

What the gently caress are you guys doing? Handing off one of your flagship IP's whose primary attraction is the tight-n'-fast action ... to a developer known for middling-to-lovely action games? Why didn't you develop this in house? Too expensive? Too tied up doing other things? What is it? If you're gonna hand it off, at least give it to Platinum or the Ninja Gaiden people- Christ, we have another DMC2 on our hands here! Didn't you learn your lesson the first time on that? You guys don't need to do it again gently caress WHAT ARE YOU DOING THROW THE BALL

To be fair, Platinum's busy with Metal Gear and the Ninja Gaiden guys are busy with... Ninja Gaiden.

Probably my favorite thing about the Devil May Cry series is the learning curve. The more you play, the better you get at the games. And it's more than just knowing a level layout, or getting used to the controls. Your characters are so acrobatic and potentially powerful, that you get better and better at using them all the time.

You also really learn everything about the enemies, what their attacks look like, what the best way to dodge them is, which enemies you should deal with first, etc. It gets to the point where you can be in the midst of a big group of enemies, slashing away constantly, and also dodging all their attacks perfectly as if it's all been choreographed in advance. Feels pretty amazing.

You can feel yourself getting better, to the point where you can utterly decimate things that were challenging to you the first time around. And it's not necessarily because of your upgrades and such, but because you know everything your opponents are going to do, and how to throw it back in their faces while devastating them at the same time.

Bayonetta to date is the ONLY game I spent the time to get every achievement, and every unlockable in. Not ONCE did any of it feel like a chore. The gameplay is imo the pinnacle of the genre. It'll be hard to find a game that will top it in terms of style and action.

...but then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you!

Grimey Drawer

Yeah, this is why I have high hopes for Metal Gear: Revengance. There's not too many games other than those in the fighting genre that have high skill ceilings and let ya just play 'em forever. It's like gaming industry planned obsolescence or something.

Monkey Fracas posted:

Yeah, this is why I have high hopes for Metal Gear: Revengance. There's not too many games other than those in the fighting genre that have high skill ceilings and let ya just play 'em forever. It's like gaming industry planned obsolescence or something.

Okay, so this post was how I found out about that new subtitle for Rising. Is that vengeance for a second time or a portmanteau of revenge and vengeance?

AccountingNightmare posted:

Probably my favorite thing about the Devil May Cry series is the learning curve. The more you play, the better you get at the games. And it's more than just knowing a level layout, or getting used to the controls. Your characters are so acrobatic and potentially powerful, that you get better and better at using them all the time.

You also really learn everything about the enemies, what their attacks look like, what the best way to dodge them is, which enemies you should deal with first, etc. It gets to the point where you can be in the midst of a big group of enemies, slashing away constantly, and also dodging all their attacks perfectly as if it's all been choreographed in advance. Feels pretty amazing.

You can feel yourself getting better, to the point where you can utterly decimate things that were challenging to you the first time around. And it's not necessarily because of your upgrades and such, but because you know everything your opponents are going to do, and how to throw it back in their faces while devastating them at the same time.

Devil May Cry 3 was the first game where I really found the fun in learning a game as best I could. I'm absolutely awful at any difficulty above Normal (Special Edition Normal, of course), but I had a blast at learning all the hidden ins-and-outs of both the enemies and Dante. Learning something as basic as Dante's jump and first Trickster dash had invulnerability frames blew my goddamn mind and encouraged me to try these new tricks against old enemies and stages. A player's familiarity with the mechanics, weapons and enemies allows them to MAKE enemies into hilarious punching bags instead of simply having enemies BE that way from the get go. I think that's what gives the gameplay of the DMC series and games like it (such as Bayonetta) such style and excitement.

One of the things that really wows me is how simple a lot of the controls are for such a deep and open system. The most complex any move gets in DMC3 is simultaneously pressing forward/backward and an attack button at the same time. The rest is up to the player to learn when and how to best utilize it. After a while, it's so open-ended and intuitive that you can effortlessly link moves together in new and interesting ways. It really helps the case that less complexity in controls, not more, is one of the key factors in adding depth to an action game. Obviously it's a lot more complex than that, but it's an important first point to make.

DMC1 was the first game I played on my PS2 all those years ago, and it more or less made buying the console worth every cent. I still consider DMC3 to be the most revolutionary in terms of making action games engaging.

The core strength of the DMC series is the combo/canceling system: nearly every move can be canceled into another and it keeps combos fluid and effective enough to be worth mastering. DMC3's style system did an excellent job of diversifying combat since each style, even and especially Royal Guard (ostensibly a defensive style), works and looks best on the offense.

I'm willing to give Ninja Theory a chance on this, erratic though their record may be. DMC's story has always been decoration at best to comboing the poo poo out of demons, and it being a prequel works as a decent excuse to have Dante not be the Dante we're used to. We can only hope that being able to pull that insane poo poo off is a possibility in DmC's fighting system.

...but then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you!

Grimey Drawer

Aw man, even the crazy weird additional art pales in comparison to previous iterations. This reminds me of one of those insufferable AXE commercials. In fact, are you sure this is not an AXE tie-in? Now that would make me really mad. Here, have some decent additional art-stuff:

toasterwarrior posted:

I'm willing to give Ninja Theory a chance on this, erratic though their record may be. DMC's story has always been decoration at best to comboing the poo poo out of demons, and it being a prequel works as a decent excuse to have Dante not be the Dante we're used to. We can only hope that being able to pull that insane poo poo off is a possibility in DmC's fighting system.

I think this is the main issue that everyone's keeping their eye on. The only thing that story and tone really effect are whether or not you'll decide to skip cutscenes on repeat playthroughs (or even your first playthrough). The big issue here is the uncertainty of whether or not Ninja Theory "gets it" and a lot of the media they've released has shown that you can do air-combos and swap weapons. Then again, I don't think anyone here has gotten their hands on a playable build so we can't be certain until the game lands. Though it certainly is easy (and fun) to prematurely bitch about it - something I'm certainly guilty of as well - especially in light of certain claims like the game is locked at 30 FPS and certain comments from PR-unsavvy devs.

It is what it is, and if it doesn't end up being any good we can always fall back on the HD collection for our fix.

I am a firm believer that Metal Gear Rising will be the sequel to Bayonetta and Dmc4 that everyone is waiting for. This DMC will sputter out and die because Capcom cannot make good decisions as of late.

Bushmaori posted:

The main reason I liked Dante as a character was that he seemed to know just how over the top and bullshit he was, I really hope they don't try to make this new Dante all serious and brooding, that would just loving ruin it for me. Also that look of his and the lead designer is just loving pathetic.

I completely agree. I love the cutscenes in dmc3 because they are so over the top. On the end of the third stage, dante rides around on a missle like a surfboard and later jumps of a towers and throws his sword down, but he's so high up that the swords starts burning red from reentering the atmosphere. Dante could be corny at times, but drat if he wasn't a fun character. The new dmc doesn't seem to have any of that charm and combined with ninja's theory's less than stellar track record, it does not give me hope.

Have a week old interview, about NT and Capcom expecting the tidal wave of negativity when they released the first trailer.

Nowgamer.com posted:

DmC Devil May Cry direction has full support of Capcom despite fan reaction, says Ninja Theory.

DmC's negative fan reaction was in-part expected at Ninja Theory, while Capcom's supervision and support proves the developer isn't "just a bunch of monkeys," when it comes to taking the franchise forward, creative chief Tameem Antionades has told NowGamer.

"We were all prepared for a negative reaction to an extent. Capcom moved one of their much-loved franchises to an external studio for it to be taken in a new direction. It would be naive to think that there wouldn’t be a reaction," Antionades said of the initial fan reponse to the new-look Dante and wor do Ninja Theory's involvement.

"We’re happy and we have the full support of Capcom with our chosen narrative and gameplay direction. This approval alone should assure people that although this is a re-birth, with some bold decisions being made, we are not just a bunch of monkeys," he added.

Also from the same site, an interview with the Ninja Theory's Tameem Antoniades and Capcom’s lead producer Alex Jones.

Nowgamer Interview posted:

The specific plot of DmC has been shrouded in mystery so far. Would you consider the game to be a direct reboot, or does it fall in line with the series canon?

Tameem Antoniades (TA): "It’s a re-birth of the series that doesn’t adhere to the original canon but draws heavily from it. If you've never played a DMC game before, you can get stuck right in from the beginning with our game. If you have, then consider this an alternate take on the story."

Alex Jones (AJ): "We’re essentially building on the gameplay foundations laid by the previous four games, whilst at the same time taking the series in a fresh direction."

We’ve seen a few instances of DmC’s younger Dante in combat. In an industry where intricate brawlers like Bayonetta exist, do you feel in any way pressured to match the intensity and depth of that game, or indeed the brutality of Devil May Cry 3?

TA: The short answer is "yes". Intricate combat, depth, variety, and brutal challenges are the minimum we want to achieve. We also want to add new play styles in combat involving aerial combat and instant switching between several weapons.

I believe the combat should be a brutal expression of style so we are trying to give the player the tools and method to express themselves.

On top of those foundations, we are adding gameplay elements that complement combat such as elaborate traversal, a more dynamic world and a videogame story, which hopefully for once, treats us like sophisticated adults.

Nier beat you to it Ninja Theory

Nowgamer Interview posted:

Say what you will about Dante's appearance, it doesn't really matter if the game is good, right? Can you give us an insight into how Dante handles in the game, and which of his previous Devil May Cry iterations he falls most closely in line with, and why?

AJ: "We have of course taken inspiration from all of the previous games, but Dante in DmC has very much his own feel. Dante is young and relativity inexperienced in DmC, with a real anger and sense of rebellion about him. As a result Dante’s fighting style is more that of a street brawler than the choreographed fighter seen in previous games."

In the most recent trailer, we saw Dante reverting back into his ‘old Dante’ guise. In what ways can you give us an insight into this mechanic?

TA: "What you’re referring to is Dante’s Devil Trigger. When Devil Trigger is activated in DmC, Dante gains in power and speed, while all of the Demons in the current encounter are lifted from the ground and suspended mid-air ready for some aerial pummeling. The longer you stay off the ground, the more damage and longer your Devil Trigger lasts. It's a test of skill."

AJ: "Visually what you’re seeing when Devil Trigger is activated is Dante tapping into his inner devil. Even though a large part of the DMC fan base are spitting blood and want clarification on the matter of hair colour, I don't wish to give away any spoilers at this point."

We’ve also heard recently that DmC will take place across parallel worlds. What will this mean for the plot and gameplay? What freedom does this feature give you to explore characters and events from across the series?

TA: "There is a parallel world behind the real world, a demon dimension called Limbo superimposed over our human one. From here, the demons are instigating an invasion, controlling all parts of society behind the scenes.

Dante is able to go into Limbo and see the truth behind the illusion. He can see the wretched, malignant version of our own world and take on the demons."

And Bayonetta, the real heir the DMC throne, beat you to that as well.

Nowgamer Interview posted:

Combat is looking insanely deep, with tons of juggle and multi-weapon combos.What specific qualities did Capcom see in Ninja Theory that might have landed you the DmC job? Did you have to produce a proof of concept, or prototype to seal the deal?

TA: "I think one of the key factors that attracted Capcom to us was our experience in telling stories through games. They told us that they wanted to give Devil May Cry a refresh, a new lease of life and part of that was to give the series a more contemporary feel.

As a studio we have a real focus on narrative and a belief that you can create evermore immersive game experiences by pushing storytelling techniques. I also think our distinct art style was one of our attributes that Capcom could see fitting within the Devil May Cry franchise."

Bosses have always been such a huge part of Devil May Cry’s novelty. Can we get an insight into what you have done to ensure that these encounters will still in the mind?

AJ: "We’re taking traditional Devil May Cry boss fights and thinking about them in the context of Dante’s new abilities and our dynamic, surrealistic world.

By doing this we’ve come up with new ways to think about boss battles, particularly in terms of what tactics are needed to succeed in them. This has been a particularly deep area of collaboration with Capcom."

Overall, what or who would you say have been your biggest influences when creating DmC, and why? How did these inspirations help guide the project?

TA: "I’d actually say that the most powerful influence has come from the team at Capcom that we’ve been partnering with. Working with people like Hideaki Itsuno, Director of Devil May Cry 2, 3 and 4, has enabled us to tap into a real wealth of Devil May Cry knowledge and development experience, especially in combat.

On the story side, Alex Garland, who I worked with on Enslaved has really inspired me personally and has continued to mentor me through this game. On art, Alex Taini, our visual art director and Stuart Adcock our technical art director always inspire me with their bold vision."

It's already clear that DmC is another visual triumph for Ninja Theory.Motion capture has become Ninja Theory’s bread and butter. In what ways has Capcom encouraged you to explore that side of things again in DmC?

TA: "Performance capture is a technique that we really believe in and use to push the way we tell stories in our games. It’s the driving force behind the DmC narrative. By using our own techniques and technologies we’ve been able to take things a step further from Heavenly Sword and Enslaved.

We capture voice, face and body simultaneously, a technique we pioneered in gaming*. In addition, we are also capturing all on-set camera motion for a more realistic feel.

*( Umm... not really.)

This is also the first game I've written, cast and directed myself. If i do my job right, you should be seeing a story of Dante that breaks the myth that all videogame stories are trite and will never stand up to the best that theatre and film have to offer."

Excuse me for one moment...BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Nowgamer Interview posted:

Cont.

"We shot DmC at Giant Studios in LA, where Avatar was shot, using a lot of the Avatar crew and similar technology. As you say, utilising performance capture is something that we’ve become known for, so Capcom were of course keen that we used our expertise in this area for DmC. They pretty much let us get on with it."

I think it's a pretty mixed bag all in all. I'll say one thing though, if this thing is good, yay for us. If it bombs, it'll bomb hard, and the impact is going to be loving hilarious.

Pesky Splinter posted:

I think it's a pretty mixed bag all in all. I'll say one thing though, if this thing is good, yay for us. If it bombs, it'll bomb hard, and the impact is going to be loving hilarious.

Honestly this is pretty much how I feel. I wasn't nearly as negative about the early stuff as most people; I still think people who called Dante's original design "emo" in this were using a term they don't understand to describe a character they didn't like for silly reflexive reasons. I'm a little more critical of the impressions I've gotten from the gameplay, but I still think it has potential and frankly after Bayonetta I prefer something new to a canned DMC sequel. Bayonetta was a better, more interesting game than DMC4 both in terms of design and gameplay and I probably wouldn't even have bothered to play a generic DMC5.

But if it sucks rear end and bombs hard, and it might, I'll be right there beside everyone else pointing and laughing at Ninja Theory for poo poo like this interview.

EDIT: Also, I never played Enslaved but I thought people sort of liked it? Like the gameplay was more shallow than a DMC game but I seem to remember it being well-received on SA after it came out.

No. 1 Apartheid Fan fucked around with this message at Dec 19, 2011 around 00:16