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[Dota 2] Nyx Assassin, Keeper of the Light, and Visage this week, and straight to CM.

Simply, Valve has never made a game that I love. They've put out a few that I've enjoyed, but nothing that stands out. That's why I have no particular confidence in them as a developer. Frankly, I'd be more enthused about dota 2 if Valve had hired Icefrog out as a separate studio or were just publishing it. It's not that I hate Valve, more than I'm ambivalent toward them.

So you've never played either of Half Life 1 or 2s single player? Do you own them?

Do you own any other game by Valve that isn't Dota 2? Because I will totally gift you their entire library, including Portal 2, if you will actually play them.

Yes, I played them. They were alright, but I don't play fps games (or any genre of games) for their singleplayer and dota 2 is a multiplayer game, so I thought comparing that to past multiplayer efforts made more sense. I mean, maybe Valve can write a deep, involving back story for dota 2, but I really couldn't care less.

Ok, I can understand that. But that still isn't a very good comparison to make. Compare it to their other multiplayer focused games. And with TF2 out there you really can't say they haven't made any other good multiplayer games. Alien Swarm was fun to, but obviously that was a coop thing.

You really don't have anything to worry about here though. Valve is a fantastic company who, thankfully, doesn't make their design decisions based around how much money it will earn them.

Thing is, I don't like Team Fortress 2, and I don't like its business model. So that doesn't give me any sort of confidence.

But, like I said before, I trust Icefrog enough that any misgivings I have about Valve are subdued and don't really bother me. I'll even take the f2p model, until they released a payed hero. At that point I will stop playing.

Repetition makes what I'm saying seem more than it is. The most relevant feeling I have about Valve is ambivalence, not antipathy: I dislike a few of their games, I like a few of their games. It's only that the games I dislike are more relevant (to me) than the games I like that gives me enough misgivings that I even bring it up. That, and I hate f2p economics, but that doesn't have as much to do with Valve as it does with the entire gaming market.

I'm not sure about the idea of a surrender vote in Dota with anything less than a 30 minute time limit attached to it. It's my experience from League that if people fuck up before the 20 minute mark, they're pretty likely to throw a tantrum and start flaming teammates/whining for a surrender so they can move onto the next game and forget about how shitty they played.

I still don't want a surrender vote.
I don't know about the allies and opponents you are playing with and against, but I'm much happier having to play out a few curbstomps as opposed to having some shitheel stop fighting and bitch at everyone who won't concede when we have a better lategame.

There's nothing wrong with curbstomps. I'm not against one team totally outclassing another. They deserve that win. I'm against wasting half an hour to an hour of my life. You think this "shitheel" won't stop fighting regardless of surrender vote? In his eyes the game is over. It's a waste of time. He'll either dick around in the fountain to pose less resistance to the enemy so they can finish quicker, or better yet he'll feed them so they'll finish quicker.

I don't know. Just seems odd. Conceding is the most basic idea in any competition.

I'll turn that around on you. What if the winning team of the massacre doesn't want to finish it? They're all just farming up rapiers and getting roshan again and again. Or maybe they don't even bother attacking your nexus towers and instead try to farm kills near the fountain? Should I have to put up with this horseshit, or should I be punished for wanting to end this abortion of a game and start fresh. Total dicks can be on both sides.

So this is purely speculation, if DotA introduces visible ratings to players ever. I really don't want a concede option, like at all.
The debate is really a bit silly because DotA should be played with proper teams of 5v5 so disregard skilled players in this, we have to talk about people who play at a lower level.

People fucking love points.
Lets assume you are behind though, say you have a 30% chance of winning from here.
What I want to do? Play the game out, that is 30% chance I can win the game that is being played and you need to learn to play from behind.
What my teammates want to do? Tap out instantly because that means they can get into the next game where they think they have a better chance. Fuck that. Learn to play from behind.
I feel the whole "Well I can just give up and get into the next game." started happening in HoN because they can get out instantly if they have to spend the next 10-15 minutes losing anyway, people try and come back in that time, because they have to spend it there anyway and who knows, maybe you'll shift it around in that time and reset it to a 50/50 chance of winning or even better in your favour. So you have people not playing out games when they're behind where at all possible, so they never learn to play properly from behind and any future situations where they're trying to come back from a situation where they behind seem way worse because they've never properly tried.

The bolded thing has happened to me literally 3 times in 400 games of DotA2.

I messed around with Lone Druid a bit in a practice game. I might have to redo my keybindings to include control groups.

I don't really get why his suggested items include power treads on the bear. Sure, it has the attack speed, but as far as I can tell, the stats are just wasted. Right now I think phase boots would make more sense.

I still don't want a surrender vote.
I don't know about the allies and opponents you are playing with and against, but I'm much happier having to play out a few curbstomps as opposed to having some shitheel stop fighting and bitch at everyone who won't concede when we have a better lategame.

There's nothing wrong with curbstomps. I'm not against one team totally outclassing another. They deserve that win. I'm against wasting half an hour to an hour of my life. You think this "shitheel" won't stop fighting regardless of surrender vote? In his eyes the game is over. It's a waste of time. He'll either dick around in the fountain to pose less resistance to the enemy so they can finish quicker, or better yet he'll feed them so they'll finish quicker.

I don't know. Just seems odd. Conceding is the most basic idea in any competition.

I'll turn that around on you. What if the winning team of the massacre doesn't want to finish it? They're all just farming up rapiers and getting roshan again and again. Or maybe they don't even bother attacking your nexus towers and instead try to farm kills near the fountain? Should I have to put up with this horseshit, or should I be punished for wanting to end this abortion of a game and start fresh. Total dicks can be on both sides.

So this is purely speculation, if DotA introduces visible ratings to players ever. I really don't want a concede option, like at all.
The debate is really a bit silly because DotA should be played with proper teams of 5v5 so disregard skilled players in this, we have to talk about people who play at a lower level.

People fucking love points.
Lets assume you are behind though, say you have a 30% chance of winning from here.
What I want to do? Play the game out, that is 30% chance I can win the game that is being played and you need to learn to play from behind.
What my teammates want to do? Tap out instantly because that means they can get into the next game where they think they have a better chance. Fuck that. Learn to play from behind.
I feel the whole "Well I can just give up and get into the next game." started happening in HoN because they can get out instantly if they have to spend the next 10-15 minutes losing anyway, people try and come back in that time, because they have to spend it there anyway and who knows, maybe you'll shift it around in that time and reset it to a 50/50 chance of winning or even better in your favour. So you have people not playing out games when they're behind where at all possible, so they never learn to play properly from behind and any future situations where they're trying to come back from a situation where they behind seem way worse because they've never properly tried.

The bolded thing has happened to me literally 3 times in 400 games of DotA2.

E: Oh someone else already said basically what I wanted to.

I had a game where my team got fully raxed in 2 lanes while all their t2s were up, but they had no late game and I was playing Huskar. We won eventually, but I totally would have quit if I had the option. That game made me be against concede options. Crazy comebacks are often possible.

I still don't want a surrender vote.
I don't know about the allies and opponents you are playing with and against, but I'm much happier having to play out a few curbstomps as opposed to having some shitheel stop fighting and bitch at everyone who won't concede when we have a better lategame.

There's nothing wrong with curbstomps. I'm not against one team totally outclassing another. They deserve that win. I'm against wasting half an hour to an hour of my life. You think this "shitheel" won't stop fighting regardless of surrender vote? In his eyes the game is over. It's a waste of time. He'll either dick around in the fountain to pose less resistance to the enemy so they can finish quicker, or better yet he'll feed them so they'll finish quicker.

I don't know. Just seems odd. Conceding is the most basic idea in any competition.

I'll turn that around on you. What if the winning team of the massacre doesn't want to finish it? They're all just farming up rapiers and getting roshan again and again. Or maybe they don't even bother attacking your nexus towers and instead try to farm kills near the fountain? Should I have to put up with this horseshit, or should I be punished for wanting to end this abortion of a game and start fresh. Total dicks can be on both sides.

So this is purely speculation, if DotA introduces visible ratings to players ever. I really don't want a concede option, like at all.
The debate is really a bit silly because DotA should be played with proper teams of 5v5 so disregard skilled players in this, we have to talk about people who play at a lower level.

People fucking love points.
Lets assume you are behind though, say you have a 30% chance of winning from here.
What I want to do? Play the game out, that is 30% chance I can win the game that is being played and you need to learn to play from behind.
What my teammates want to do? Tap out instantly because that means they can get into the next game where they think they have a better chance. Fuck that. Learn to play from behind.
I feel the whole "Well I can just give up and get into the next game." started happening in HoN because they can get out instantly if they have to spend the next 10-15 minutes losing anyway, people try and come back in that time, because they have to spend it there anyway and who knows, maybe you'll shift it around in that time and reset it to a 50/50 chance of winning or even better in your favour. So you have people not playing out games when they're behind where at all possible, so they never learn to play properly from behind and any future situations where they're trying to come back from a situation where they behind seem way worse because they've never properly tried.

The bolded thing has happened to me literally 3 times in 400 games of DotA2.

E: Oh someone else already said basically what I wanted to.

I had a game where my team got fully raxed in 2 lanes while all their t2s were up, but they had no late game and I was playing Huskar. We won eventually, but I totally would have quit if I had the option. That game made me be against concede options. Crazy comebacks are often possible.

This is pretty much what I'm talking about. By all reasonable judgement you should tap out, but if you don't, sometimes you make a fantastic comeback and feel great about how you turned it around.

I still don't want a surrender vote.
I don't know about the allies and opponents you are playing with and against, but I'm much happier having to play out a few curbstomps as opposed to having some shitheel stop fighting and bitch at everyone who won't concede when we have a better lategame.

There's nothing wrong with curbstomps. I'm not against one team totally outclassing another. They deserve that win. I'm against wasting half an hour to an hour of my life. You think this "shitheel" won't stop fighting regardless of surrender vote? In his eyes the game is over. It's a waste of time. He'll either dick around in the fountain to pose less resistance to the enemy so they can finish quicker, or better yet he'll feed them so they'll finish quicker.

I don't know. Just seems odd. Conceding is the most basic idea in any competition.

I'll turn that around on you. What if the winning team of the massacre doesn't want to finish it? They're all just farming up rapiers and getting roshan again and again. Or maybe they don't even bother attacking your nexus towers and instead try to farm kills near the fountain? Should I have to put up with this horseshit, or should I be punished for wanting to end this abortion of a game and start fresh. Total dicks can be on both sides.

So this is purely speculation, if DotA introduces visible ratings to players ever. I really don't want a concede option, like at all.
The debate is really a bit silly because DotA should be played with proper teams of 5v5 so disregard skilled players in this, we have to talk about people who play at a lower level.

People fucking love points.
Lets assume you are behind though, say you have a 30% chance of winning from here.
What I want to do? Play the game out, that is 30% chance I can win the game that is being played and you need to learn to play from behind.
What my teammates want to do? Tap out instantly because that means they can get into the next game where they think they have a better chance. Fuck that. Learn to play from behind.
I feel the whole "Well I can just give up and get into the next game." started happening in HoN because they can get out instantly if they have to spend the next 10-15 minutes losing anyway, people try and come back in that time, because they have to spend it there anyway and who knows, maybe you'll shift it around in that time and reset it to a 50/50 chance of winning or even better in your favour. So you have people not playing out games when they're behind where at all possible, so they never learn to play properly from behind and any future situations where they're trying to come back from a situation where they behind seem way worse because they've never properly tried.

The bolded thing has happened to me literally 3 times in 400 games of DotA2.

E: Oh someone else already said basically what I wanted to.

I had a game where my team got fully raxed in 2 lanes while all their t2s were up, but they had no late game and I was playing Huskar. We won eventually, but I totally would have quit if I had the option. That game made me be against concede options. Crazy comebacks are often possible.

This is pretty much what I'm talking about. By all reasonable judgement you should tap out, but if you don't, sometimes you make a fantastic comeback and feel great about how you turned it around.

I still don't want a surrender vote.
I don't know about the allies and opponents you are playing with and against, but I'm much happier having to play out a few curbstomps as opposed to having some shitheel stop fighting and bitch at everyone who won't concede when we have a better lategame.

There's nothing wrong with curbstomps. I'm not against one team totally outclassing another. They deserve that win. I'm against wasting half an hour to an hour of my life. You think this "shitheel" won't stop fighting regardless of surrender vote? In his eyes the game is over. It's a waste of time. He'll either dick around in the fountain to pose less resistance to the enemy so they can finish quicker, or better yet he'll feed them so they'll finish quicker.

I don't know. Just seems odd. Conceding is the most basic idea in any competition.

I'll turn that around on you. What if the winning team of the massacre doesn't want to finish it? They're all just farming up rapiers and getting roshan again and again. Or maybe they don't even bother attacking your nexus towers and instead try to farm kills near the fountain? Should I have to put up with this horseshit, or should I be punished for wanting to end this abortion of a game and start fresh. Total dicks can be on both sides.

So this is purely speculation, if DotA introduces visible ratings to players ever. I really don't want a concede option, like at all.
The debate is really a bit silly because DotA should be played with proper teams of 5v5 so disregard skilled players in this, we have to talk about people who play at a lower level.

People fucking love points.
Lets assume you are behind though, say you have a 30% chance of winning from here.
What I want to do? Play the game out, that is 30% chance I can win the game that is being played and you need to learn to play from behind.
What my teammates want to do? Tap out instantly because that means they can get into the next game where they think they have a better chance. Fuck that. Learn to play from behind.
I feel the whole "Well I can just give up and get into the next game." started happening in HoN because they can get out instantly if they have to spend the next 10-15 minutes losing anyway, people try and come back in that time, because they have to spend it there anyway and who knows, maybe you'll shift it around in that time and reset it to a 50/50 chance of winning or even better in your favour. So you have people not playing out games when they're behind where at all possible, so they never learn to play properly from behind and any future situations where they're trying to come back from a situation where they behind seem way worse because they've never properly tried.

The bolded thing has happened to me literally 3 times in 400 games of DotA2.

E: Oh someone else already said basically what I wanted to.

I had a game where my team got fully raxed in 2 lanes while all their t2s were up, but they had no late game and I was playing Huskar. We won eventually, but I totally would have quit if I had the option. That game made me be against concede options. Crazy comebacks are often possible.

This is pretty much what I'm talking about. By all reasonable judgement you should tap out, but if you don't, sometimes you make a fantastic comeback and feel great about how you turned it around.

And sometimes you just wasted an hour.

If you feel like that okay, fine, I'm not going to be able to sway you on this but my objective when I'm being competitive is to win the highest percentage of games I possibly can and come out of the game with the ability to do better if a similar situation comes around again.
We have a different approach, that is okay.
Thankfully I've found a team to play with again that shares my view. Just have to wait a couple of days before I can really start logging hours with them.

Since the latest patch, I've been experiencing some terrible drops in FPS - from a stable 60 FPS to <10 FPS. My FPS will remain low until I either restart the game, or wait it out (takes 3-4 minutes or so). Is anyone else experiencing anything like this? It's a huge problem, as I can't really play until it's fixed without reconnecting a million times throughout games.

Made a more descriptive thread about the issue on the dev forum (link), but I'd love any help/input you guys can give. Already tried reinstalling the game, and messing with my settings.

Re: Surrender vote, you can already surrender, if an entire team disconnects at the same time you won't get an abandon. I'm personally not in favour of a surrender vote, had really bad experiences with the surrender-mentality in League. Besides, if you're in a situation where you'd want to surrender (down several raxes and no hope of turning around), you can just let the big creeps finish your ancient, it wont take long. If you haven't lost any rax, the game isn't unwinnable at all - comebacks can happen in spite of insane kill- and gold-disadvantages. I see a lot of people asking the other team to "push and finish" while they're actively defending and pushing out the lanes - just let it end if you don't want to play it out.

I just don't see these mythical games where the other team is fountain fishing for 10 minutes straight - if they're that far ahead, the game will end within a few minutes because of the creeps anyway. I'd like to see some replays that really justify the need for surrendering, as it just hasn't happened to me yet during my ~140 games played so far - can any proponents of surrendering provide some matchID's perhaps?

Regarding Valve. I will have to side with Page- . Most of what comes out of their shop is vastly over rated. Half life sold so well because you needed to own a copy in order to play Counter Strike. Portal is a so so puzzle game, physics the game.

What I do give Valve credit for is they can produce an engine and tools like a boss. I believe Vampire the Masquerade came out before HL2 and was phenomenal (minus a bug or two =) ). Counter Strike was obviously popular, They are porting DoTA to the source engine and having a mild level of success with it. I would also consider steam a well designed platform for content delivery.

Outside of all that, DoTA learning chasm is hitting me hard coming from LoL. From the way the Heroes are defined, lack of an auto flash (leading into hero frailty, and the need to know when ganks are coming since your escape options are . . . limited). Denial, knowing when to hold off and wait on a creep wave. Pulling neutrals into your creap waves to stack em up when pushing. No AP, etc etc.

I normally like to get a set amount of heroes (2-3 for each role) and learn them. Here I probably need a good 3 days to get the gyst of a certain hero, I mean thank heaven they have spectator mode and built in replays. I am only playing solo bot games till I find a few good heroes that I like (leaning on Leshrac and Chen so far).

0

3clipseI will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular

I still don't want a surrender vote.
I don't know about the allies and opponents you are playing with and against, but I'm much happier having to play out a few curbstomps as opposed to having some shitheel stop fighting and bitch at everyone who won't concede when we have a better lategame.

There's nothing wrong with curbstomps. I'm not against one team totally outclassing another. They deserve that win. I'm against wasting half an hour to an hour of my life. You think this "shitheel" won't stop fighting regardless of surrender vote? In his eyes the game is over. It's a waste of time. He'll either dick around in the fountain to pose less resistance to the enemy so they can finish quicker, or better yet he'll feed them so they'll finish quicker.

I don't know. Just seems odd. Conceding is the most basic idea in any competition.

I'll turn that around on you. What if the winning team of the massacre doesn't want to finish it? They're all just farming up rapiers and getting roshan again and again. Or maybe they don't even bother attacking your nexus towers and instead try to farm kills near the fountain? Should I have to put up with this horseshit, or should I be punished for wanting to end this abortion of a game and start fresh. Total dicks can be on both sides.

So this is purely speculation, if DotA introduces visible ratings to players ever. I really don't want a concede option, like at all.
The debate is really a bit silly because DotA should be played with proper teams of 5v5 so disregard skilled players in this, we have to talk about people who play at a lower level.

People fucking love points.
Lets assume you are behind though, say you have a 30% chance of winning from here.
What I want to do? Play the game out, that is 30% chance I can win the game that is being played and you need to learn to play from behind.
What my teammates want to do? Tap out instantly because that means they can get into the next game where they think they have a better chance. Fuck that. Learn to play from behind.
I feel the whole "Well I can just give up and get into the next game." started happening in HoN because they can get out instantly if they have to spend the next 10-15 minutes losing anyway, people try and come back in that time, because they have to spend it there anyway and who knows, maybe you'll shift it around in that time and reset it to a 50/50 chance of winning or even better in your favour. So you have people not playing out games when they're behind where at all possible, so they never learn to play properly from behind and any future situations where they're trying to come back from a situation where they behind seem way worse because they've never properly tried.

The bolded thing has happened to me literally 3 times in 400 games of DotA2.

E: Oh someone else already said basically what I wanted to.

I had a game where my team got fully raxed in 2 lanes while all their t2s were up, but they had no late game and I was playing Huskar. We won eventually, but I totally would have quit if I had the option. That game made me be against concede options. Crazy comebacks are often possible.

This is pretty much what I'm talking about. By all reasonable judgement you should tap out, but if you don't, sometimes you make a fantastic comeback and feel great about how you turned it around.

And sometimes you just wasted an hour.

I would argue that an overwhelming majority of the time you just wasted an hr. A once in a million comeback is just that: once in a million. They're special for a reason. Some of us would rather not suffer through 9 stomps to get 1 comeback win. In a game where advantage snowballs so hard, comebacks are very difficult.

If you can convince just ONE other person on your team to play it out, you have 2/5 not voting concede and the game continues. If you get outvoted 4/5 you're probably just an asshole. Its almost always the hard carry who AFK farmed all game while his team was getting destroyed who wants to just play it out. Call me when the 0-10-8 crystal maiden is begging to play on. Then I'll be sympathetic.

And if your team is being forced to "play" by lack of a concede vote, how well will they play anyway?

plus: chess, and HoN, and LoL, and DotA1, and Starcraft all have concede votes. so why not dota2?

Sillybear is a good competitive pick. Farms well, pushes really well, and running around with the bear is gimmicky as all hell. Sucking out with an entangle can get free kills for no reason, and once the bear has a radiance it can push and counterpush for free, just keep running it in to the creep waves while not attacking and the burn will kill everything.

Actually, Druid is another strange case of the metagame catching up with a hero and changing the way people think about them. Back when dota was mostly about farming and ganking, a radiance bear was considered to be a huge waste of time and gold. You put all the items on the bear and they just kill the Druid. Meanwhile, they can't gank and if the other team is farming half decently the burn damage is negligible. But once teams started pushing more and more the bear became more popular, and radiance builds were the norm simply because it was so good for pushing. Icefrog eventually nerfed the bear's return because of that: Used to be the bear could go pretty much anywhere, but would instantly teleport back to the Druid if it tried to attack out of leash range. So a radiance bear could harass all day without any real danger, but not only was return changed, but the leash range was severely nerfed for a while, then buffed slightly.

This is because Steam is objectively better than Origin. I'm playing Mass Effect 3 multiplayer and nearly every time both me and my friends need to quit the game and restart Origin just to join the same game. I'll see people as offline that are most definitely online. And everyone's already on Steam. It's not a failing of the Origin client itself, but it's a real difference in terms of annoyance in adding friends to it.

I mean Origin is probably the best attempt at a non-Steam digital distribution system. But it's kind of buggy, hardly any games or players are on it and doesn't seem to do anything that Steam doesn't already do. The only reason it exists is because EA is feeling threatened as a company and is forcing its games to use it. That doesn't really make me excited to install another DD client.

I can understand that, I would say Origins is still in its infancy. It all comes down to money and EA wanting to keep their profit margins / control on their releases. I mean I have DA2 on my steam. EA knows that they have "Must play titles" so you have to come and have to use their store.

Thing is, I don't like Team Fortress 2, and I don't like its business model. So that doesn't give me any sort of confidence.

But, like I said before, I trust Icefrog enough that any misgivings I have about Valve are subdued and don't really bother me...

I'm the opposite, I really wish Valve was taking a more dominant role in the game design, as I think letting Icefrog and the dota diehards dictate that the design sticks to outdated mechanics and brings along old engine flaws is rather myopic. Where games like LoL can innovate, and have streamlined the game model to a pretty successful degree, Dota 2 is this weird, fusty game, that really plays like a game out of time, it's like a moba anachronism...

That said, I'm enjoying it, because its difficulty lends something new and fun after I burnt out on LoL, but I do wonder if it's going to stay that way long term. As I'm just not a firm believer in the idea that difficult mechanics = fun game design. I've also noticed that LoL (at least for me) is more fun to watch the pros play. Though, it's only fair to point out that Starcraft 2 stayed extremely true to the old design, and it's been incredibly successful.

If Valve wanted to make their own dota clone they could have made their own dota clone.

Why would they go out of your way to hire a guy with no commercial experience when they could have hired anyone and done it themselves. They could have just changed the camera angle on a few tf2 maps and sold it as a dota clone and people would have given them money. Honestly, I have no idea what they were thinking and I'll probably never know. Maybe they wanted a competitive game on their roster, or maybe they're not completely full of shit when they say they just love playing dota.

Dota is, despite all the "fusty" and "difficult" and "anachronistic" design choices, a hugely successful game on the back of zero marketing, a decade old engine, barely any tutorial functions, and a reputation for being both really hard to learn and very unforgiving. Both as a non-competitive game and as a competitive game dota was way bigger than most commercial games and showed no signs of slowing down until dota 2 was announced. I understand that a lot of people don't get or even like a lot of dota's mechanics, but--and I know I seem like an asshole for stating this--dota was doing just fine before you got here and will do just fine without you. If you don't like it then don't play it; there are plenty of alternatives on the market. Let the people who enjoy it for what it is keep enjoying it for what it is. I personally think lol is a boring game full of dumb design decisions, so I don't play lol and I don't go around telling lol players that they should ask Riot to change their game so that I'll like it (which is also how I feel about every fps released since 1999, so I do my best to ignore those as well).