Relationship between Chess rating and I.Q?

This should be easy to look up, and I seem to remember there being a weak or possibly nonsignificant correlation between IQ and chess rating. But I'm too lazy to do so myself (another thing IQ doesn't take into account)."?

yes, this is the case. many studies have been conducted and this is exactly what was found. also I would just like to note that these studies were probably invariably talking about standard chess played in real life tournaments, and not internet blitz or bullet chess.

grandmasters seem to have a unique ability to "chunk" patterns, store them in their heads and call them up as needed. something along these lines. it was a german study I read which stated something like this. they speculated that grandmasters may have above normal neuronal connections tying together two very specific parts of the brain which may contribute to how easily they are able to store or "chunk" chess patterns or positions in their memories.

I think it very likely that each person has increased activity/neuronal connections tying together various different parts of brain leading to each person having different predispositions and abilities for different fields, activities etc., chess being one of these. this is the same variability that applies to people's phyisques and their according predispositions for different athletic/physical activities.

Interesting- thank you for that. Of course, given that I'm in the 1300-1400 range after playing chess my whole life, I would like to believe there is no relationship whatsoever!

Well, in Germany we distinguish between "Zusammenhang" and "Korrelation". Only in loose talk people use "korreliert" in the sense of "not independent". "Korrelation":="linearer Zusammenhang" is usually reserved for Pearson's product-moment correlation r, while "nichtlinearer Zusammenhang" is for dependencies that are better modelled through other than linear curves (like e.g. a typical learning curve).

If I can assume you are mathematically trained as well, Bubatz. Then it would appear that correlation indeed only formally applies to linear relationships. The sciences (and everyday speech) certainly do not make such a distinction.

Shame we couldn't have had a more amiable discussion of what was ultimately a rather pointless sidenote to the thread.

I had something interesting happen to me. I used to be a rather good chess player but then, unfortunately,had limited brain damage.

My "spatial" used to be in the upper one tenth of one percent--I could play blindfold etc at an early age.

Now my "spatial" is really bad--in lower 15%-this due to some brain damage in a particular area of my brain.

My chess playing ability has also gone down something like 400 rating points in quicker chess and 250 rating points in slow chess.

So I am saying your chess ability is dependent on some separate factors such as spatial, memory, ability to innovate etc.

If you have these factors then your over all IQ will tend to be higher as some of these are factored in evaluatiing IQ. If you lose one of these factors--your IQ will drop--I have lost spatial and memory [memory to some degree]. My IQ has dropped.

I have seen some intelligent people do some very dumb things, especially whilst using very little forethought, that they were otherwise very capable of. Even the dull are capable of making a few sharp moves now and then.

However, it seems logical to conclude if you did a study, it would show that the better you are at spatial reasoning, in conjunction with logic problem solving, you probably are going to be better at chess than those who don't do them well.

I don't think Fischer or Kasparov's IQ is known. There are silly internet sources willing to claim all sorts of numbers, but is there any evidence they were tested? Which test was used? That's what I thought

Yeah, IQ test is too broad, especially if it works the way it aims to. Chess skill is too specific. For plateau rating and IQ I woudln't expect too much correlation (after you factor out some of the problems you mentioned such as bright people quitting and such). Learning rate and IQ I would expect to be more of a correlation, but still less of one than the masses inherently attribute to chess due to its status as a game for intellectuals.

I have seen some intelligent people do some very dumb things, especially whilst using very little forethought, that they were otherwise very capable of. Even the dull are capable of making a few sharp moves now and then.

However, it seems logical to conclude if you did a study, it would show that the better you are at spatial reasoning, in conjunction with logic problem solving, you probably are going to be better at chess than those who don't do them well.

These tests have been done. Surprisingly, to me at least, the ability to solve logic problems well has very little correlation to Chess ability, at least beyond a certain threshold. Grandmasters aren't spectacularly good at logic problems, and people who are extremely good at logic problems are frequently not good Chess players. "Spatial reasoning" is a somewhat ill-defined term, but there does seem to be a greater connection between that, at least in some definitions, and Chess playing ability.

Was an issue of chess-life... maybe a year old now? Where titled players including GMs were given games similar to chess in their perfect information, zero-sum, nash equilibrium (not so sure about that last term, I'm sorta just throwing them out there now lol). But anyway games you could always reason though to the best logical move.

Long story short, the GMs preformed very very slightly better than a control group of non chess players. Masters as a whole preformed worse IIRC lol.

I don't think Fischer or Kasparov's IQ is known. There are silly internet sources willing to claim all sorts of numbers, but is there any evidence they were tested? Which test was used? That's what I thought

It's not even relevant to the overall discussion. For example, I would bet that there is a positive relationship between IQ and ability to do mental arithmetic. But take the very best who have ever been at mental arithmetic and suddenly you have included idiot savants whose brains are just wired differently. I think Fischer was a little of the idiot savant. Kasparov is pretty bright, but his political commentary is not within a million miles close to the perfection of his chess.

I think that Fischer probably had Asperger's syndrome, rather than being an idiot savant. I think he was diagnosed with Asperger's. Some of his childhood friends have stated flatly that he had the syndrome and I doubt that they diagnosed it themselves. It is known that his mother took him to a psychiatrist, who told her that there were worse things to be obessed with than chess. He probably told her some other things.

Isn't assuming that a high degree of intelligence will make you a top rated chess player like assuming that an athlete who excels in one sport will excel in any activity requiring physical skills? Possessing high intelligence should make it easier to absorb the nuances of chess, just like having superior physical skills should make it easier to master a sport. But it comes down to practice, dedication, and more practice in both cases.

I have seen some intelligent people do some very dumb things, especially whilst using very little forethought, that they were otherwise very capable of. Even the dull are capable of making a few sharp moves now and then.

However, it seems logical to conclude if you did a study, it would show that the better you are at spatial reasoning, in conjunction with logic problem solving, you probably are going to be better at chess than those who don't do them well.

These tests have been done. Surprisingly, to me at least, the ability to solve logic problems well has very little correlation to Chess ability, at least beyond a certain threshold. Grandmasters aren't spectacularly good at logic problems, and people who are extremely good at logic problems are frequently not good Chess players. "Spatial reasoning" is a somewhat ill-defined term, but there does seem to be a greater connection between that, at least in some definitions, and Chess playing ability.

The type of logic problem, as they can vary in requirement potentially, can require different types of reasoning.This is where my previous post that you quoted, has it's merits. A chess puzzle is a type of logic problem. In fact, it appears that all three types of reasoning are used in solving them to a degree.

Here is an explanation of the different types of reasoning.

DEDUCTIVE, INDUCTIVE, AND ABDUCTIVE REASONING:

Inductive reasoning, is a kind of reasoning that constructs or evaluates propositions that are abstractions of observations of individual instances.

(This occurs in solving chess problems as ideas are proposed by us in abstract ways for each possibility.)

Inductive reasoning contrasts with deductive reasoning in that a general conclusion is arrived at by specific examples.

( We use deductive reasoning when we compare specific examples of memorization, to see if the current problem's circumstances are the same, to help us decide how to deal with them.)

Abductive reasoning, is a form of logical inference that goes from data description of something to a hypothesis that accounts for the data.For example, the lawn is wet. But if it rained last night, then it would be unsurprising that the lawn is wet. Therefore, by abductive reasoning, the possibility that it rained last night is reasonable.

( We use this type of reasoning as we strategize. We use the facts we can see, as they pertain to a chess problem in front of us, to help us figure out what we don't know. We then come up with a theory(after or during the comparison of possibilities) for how to solve our problem, based on our consideration of the facts. We do this before we test it by(calculating/visualizing), to see if our theory can become a plan that we implement into action.)

I would agree that just because a GM might be really intelligent, that doesn't necessarily make him a good detective, professional problem solver, or even good at other types of brain teaser puzzles, but I am willing to bet that most GM's, "strictly based on their intellect", would make good candidates for those things.

I don't only base this on their raw intelligence, but on intangibles that go hand in hand with intelligence. Things like patience, that we exercise as we solve problems, are often credited to us an intelligence. It isn't that they are intelligence in it's raw form, but patience is necessary to use intelligence over a prolonged period of time. Generally speaking, one must also be intelligent enough to realize the fruit of patience, and intelligent enough to choose to couple it with the rest of their intelligence, in order to get the most out of their wit.

I would agree that just because a GM might be really intelligent, that doesn't necessarily make him a good detective, professional problem solver, or even good at other types of brain teaser puzzles, but I am willing to bet that most GM's, "strictly based on their intellect", would make good candidates for those things.

In reasearching this problem I was surprised to find that this rather straightforward and intuitively obvious statement is, based on available evidence, very likely to be wrong. Great Chess players do not tend to have extraordinary reasoning capacity, as best the researchers can tell.

Consider a different cognitive problem, that of recognizing a familiar face. When we see someone we know well, we don't go through a calculation process where we compare eye distance and hair color and nose shape and decide that that face most likely belongs to Aunt Tilly. We just see Aunt Tilly and we know it is Aunt Tilly.

If it is someone we know a bit less well, we might have a suspicion, and then mentally dredge up other images from memory and compare features. More like, "That person looks familiar. Is he the guy who works at the 7-11? No...that guy has longer hair. Oh, I know. He's the guy who appeared on that one episode of "Bones" last season." In other words, "resaoning" seems to be secondary to "recognition".

Chess playing seems to be more related to face recognition than it is to traditional academic endeavors like understanding mathematics or physics. Great players tend to look at a board and just know what the right move is, possibly because it looks very much like the board position from another game they remember, and they knew what the right move was in that game. This finding is supported by studies of brain activation which show strong brain activity in areas devoted to recognition than those associated with puzzle solving or reasoning tasks.

Of course, this is somewhat speculative. We are just now beginning to understand the inner workings of the human mind, and we cannot be certain of these findings, but there is research available to support it.

The fact the question can be asked at all is evidence of how little we still know about the workings of the brain. 100 years hence, a discussion such as this may be impossible. Given we are currently only so loosely able to define intelligence, equating it with anything is ultimately a futile task - though I'm sure our descendents will forgive us the exercise.