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The thing is that you take criticism of the murderous despotic Putin to be a personal slight on the Russian people. It is not in any way. You or anyone is free to criticise May, Cameron, Blair, Thatcher in infinitum and would find many of us not just unoffended but in agreement.

No, I really don't. I judge people on their merits and what I perceive to be the stupidity or sometimes sense in their posts.

If they live in the Netherlands they are allowed to hear both sides of the story.

They weren't though. They were fed propaganda and lies from day 1. The Russian telemetry showing the buk orientation from the Ukrainian side was ignored as, ironically and laughably, propaganda despite them having some of the best satellite communication technology in the whole world.

Anyway it's pointless trying to convince people about the justification or otherwise for regime change. Most have never served a single minute, what's the point of expecting them to see the whole picture about who is righteous and who is scum.

Elgin, like Maz..i really enjoy your emotion and enthusiasm for palace and for defending, and challenging "accepted opinion" about Russia, i warm to your personality. There are a lot of misconceptions about the russian people but here is aworld of difference between the russian people and their perceptions about the russian state and government. I cannot speak even russian after spending 6/7 years here )))) Without being in Russia, peopl dont understand the warmth of the russian people and general good feelings and enthusiasm for british people. Since i have been here i do understand that most people understand that the russian government and structure is tied to beurocracy, self interest from oligarchs, endemic corruption, but i also undrerstand that after their experiences with yeltsin they are able to forgive almost anything that putin does..and to be frank admires putin for putting russian interest first and love the "stability" he has bough to the country after extreme hardship and disruption. I feel that you are losing the plot slightly to keep thinking that british media is routinely brainwashing people. Forgive me maybe for speaking so directly, you have many many good thoughts and contributions, and i dont post so much but always think about what you say. My impression is that russian people just accept the 'status quo" because of real control from the center, but they understand this is criminal, unjust, and can allow many renegade activities. I am also quite willing to believe that the recent events in uk could be about different segments of russian mafia wishing to prove their usefullness and loyaly...much like the activities of chechen officers in moscow against opposition figures. Anyway, much love to you and keep smiling, just tone back your emotions if you can ... up the palace !! ))

Elgin, like Maz..i really enjoy your emotion and enthusiasm for palace and for defending, and challenging "accepted opinion" about Russia, i warm to your personality. There are a lot of misconceptions about the russian people but here is aworld of difference between the russian people and their perceptions about the russian state and government. I cannot speak even russian after spending 6/7 years here )))) Without being in Russia, peopl dont understand the warmth of the russian people and general good feelings and enthusiasm for british people. Since i have been here i do understand that most people understand that the russian government and structure is tied to beurocracy, self interest from oligarchs, endemic corruption, but i also undrerstand that after their experiences with yeltsin they are able to forgive almost anything that putin does..and to be frank admires putin for putting russian interest first and love the "stability" he has bough to the country after extreme hardship and disruption. I feel that you are losing the plot slightly to keep thinking that british media is routinely brainwashing people. Forgive me maybe for speaking so directly, you have many many good thoughts and contributions, and i dont post so much but always think about what you say. My impression is that russian people just accept the 'status quo" because of real control from the center, but they understand this is criminal, unjust, and can allow many renegade activities. I am also quite willing to believe that the recent events in uk could be about different segments of russian mafia wishing to prove their usefullness and loyaly...much like the activities of chechen officers in moscow against opposition figures. Anyway, much love to you and keep smiling, just tone back your emotions if you can ... up the palace !! ))

Much love to you too Twiggy. I probably shouldn't log on when I've been travelling since 7am yesterday morning Far too easy to bite against moronic pictures. Take your points about what is really going on and how it relates to the often ridiculous interpretation we are fed. I do speak a little Russian and I'm sure you will too in time. Let's hope things improve and the neo liberals are silenced, one way or another. Peace is definitely the way to go. Anyway, Homer sleep now

We disagreed mate thats all,whats the big deal,what example are you talking about unless you are going back four years,please say you are not ?

No we didn't, I was saying both sides were responsible for the goading and drunken posturing. You disagreed and threw a hissy fit. Contrast those scenes to what you saw for a whole month. Treat people like adults and not animals and see the improvement.

You'd have to have your head firmly buried deep in the sand to defend Putin's character, and it's certainly not western anti-Russian propaganda, when he blatantly allows the criminalisation of gay folk but at the same time decriminalises the actions of violent husbands.

They weren't though. They were fed propaganda and lies from day 1. The Russian telemetry showing the buk orientation from the Ukrainian side was ignored as, ironically and laughably, propaganda despite them having some of the best satellite communication technology in the whole world.

Anyway it's pointless trying to convince people about the justification or otherwise for regime change. Most have never served a single minute, what's the point of expecting them to see the whole picture about who is righteous and who is scum.

But the Russian position was that it was shot down by a Ukrainian su25 fighter. Or have they changed their mind on that? Is there an official Russian position?

Official Russian position on everything is we didn’t do it, no matter how overwhelming the evidence to the contary. No drugs in sport sponsored by the state and Britain poisoning Russian citizens in Salisbury. Pure coincidence that everyone connected with sale of Aeroflot has died, last one in New Malden with a noose round his neck not the cause. Glad only Trump and the odd intellectual on here belive Putin

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At least I score.............
Just because you are not paranoid does not mean they are not out to get you.........

No we didn't, I was saying both sides were responsible for the goading and drunken posturing. You disagreed and threw a hissy fit. Contrast those scenes to what you saw for a whole month. Treat people like adults and not animals and see the improvement.

You had gangs of trained Russian hooligans (not drunk) going into France with the blessing of Russian politicians hunting other fans mostly innocents.I got pissed because as per normal you were batting for the other side,then you threatened me because I called you a c*** (Just say it again,just say it again) so I thought f uck you LOL ,I should not have done it but there you go,no one is perfect,yes I had a hissy fit

Of course the Russian Gov't would not accept it on their own soil and funnily enough not even a skirmish(I wonder why )which is a great thing but pity they would not extend that courtesy when football is played in other countries.

The French had to wait till they got home to kick things off

You may have you head buried up your own arse over this but most have not.

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Just when I thought I was out...They pull me back in

I post this in the full expectation of being (again) called racist and Russia-phobe, but this article this morning from Australia is a powerful rebuke to Trump as well as Putin from people directly impacted by the attack.

Getting back to basics and cutting out all the "he said, she said" Do you still feel that the invasion of a sovereign state was acceptable behavior (Ukraine). Do you feel it was acceptable to annex land from a sovereign state to ensure that they retained a strategic naval base (Crimea).

If the answer is yes and yes, will you be OK if Russia decided for the same reasons that the required the "repatriation" of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.