Interesting. But what about right now? Much is lost if you don't "live in the moment" - something I have learned to do much better thanks to my two boys. From a spiritual standpoint, I hear most people talk about God in terms of what has happened in the past or what will happen in the future, but IMO in order to know God you to see him in the current moment to truly understand. I hope that makes sense (even if coming from an agnostic perspective further complicates the conversation).

Pablo: This is such an awesome statement because in truth, every day of my life is spent in relationship with my Heavenly Father. Each challenge I face, each person I meet, all present me with an opportunity.

Here's and example: I work in Government Assisted Housing, and much of my job consists of work orders and apartment maintenance. There are often times that I have to fix something and a challenge suddenly arises. Let's say, I'm replacing the feed lines on a sink. The old lines are corroded beyond repair and the new faucet requires longer feed lines (recent occurrence btw) I've removed the first line without incident, but the 2nd neither allows me the room to move a wrench, and it appears to be getting ready to break. In this instance I stopped and prayed asking the Lord to loosen the nut, and don't let it break. It happened, and I replaced the line without incident.

To the person reading this, you have a million excuses or reasons as to why this happened, and none of them involve God. To me, living the experience, I can not explain how it happens, but the interaction does happen. It is an EXPERIENCE thing, and for those who don't you wouldn't believe it.

Likewise, each of you who I interact with provide an opportunity as well. When I first came on, as DevilDoc, that tag was a descriptor of my life, a former U.S. Navy medic who worked with the Marines. It was something that I was proud of doing, and I enjoyed the title given by said Marines. As I grew in my faith, I saw the need to interact and demonstrate my faith through relationships. I haven't always done it right, and I'm sure I've upset a few, if not quite a few, here but I've really tried to form true relationships, albeit internet.

So I may be blind in my faith, and unwaivering in my committment, but I take those same traits and apply them to praying for each of you, whom the Lord has laid on my heart, and I'll leave the results up to Him.

Sorry Billy, I didn't mean to threadjack this, I was responding to what I read...

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

June 23rd, 2012, 6:47 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3056Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

I just heard this mentioned today, and here is the reference to it, for those who would care to track it down.

"The Collapse of Evolution" by Scott Huse mentions that the principle element of meteors is Nickel, when meteors impact earth in what ever size they melt or dissolve into dust, especially over a long period of time. If Earths age is as modern science predicts, then there should be an estimated 5 feet of Nickel dust on the face of the Earth, but in reality, nickel is one of the rarist metals on Earth.

I thought this was INTERESTING, and would be neat to discuss as well. Here's the link to a discription of this book.

I just heard this mentioned today, and here is the reference to it, for those who would care to track it down.

"The Collapse of Evolution" by Scott Huse mentions that the principle element of meteors is Nickel, when meteors impact earth in what ever size they melt or dissolve into dust, especially over a long period of time. If Earths age is as modern science predicts, then there should be an estimated 5 feet of Nickel dust on the face of the Earth, but in reality, nickel is one of the rarist metals on Earth.

I thought this was INTERESTING, and would be neat to discuss as well. Here's the link to a discription of this book.

Science created, amongst other things, the internet & search engines. Now, you can't believe everything (or even most of what) you read on the internet ... but you can tell pretty easily when a site is credible, when it comes to extremely common facts like the composition of metorites. Hint: if the site has Jesus riding a dinosaur, the site might not have the most accurate scientific material.

Well I.E. I followed your link and found that there really isn't anything wrong with what I posted. However, the majority of the RECOVERED meterorites are stony, but that doesn't mean that we have recovered them all. So are you making a judgment based upon your own personal disdain for "Bible-thupmers"?

There was a time that you and I traded shots, and I have given it a day to let your response, and my reactions steep, but in the end I didn't find anything that disqualified what I posted.

Iron/stony is made up of the metals iron and or nickel

Stony: obvious

Btw, this was taken from you 2nd link the first pdf was too large.

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

June 27th, 2012, 1:04 pm

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 10024Location: Dallas

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

speaking of meteorites, this from the Christian Science Monitor today...

Quote:

1969 meteorite yields material previously unknown to science

A new study of fragments of an ancient rock that fell to Earth in 1969 has yielded a new mineral. Dubbed 'panguite' the new mineral may hold secrets about the formation of our solar system.

Scientists have discovered a new mineral embedded in a meteorite that fell to Earth over 40 years ago, and it could be among the oldest minerals, formed in the early days of our solar system. The mineral is a type of titanium oxide and has been named panguite, after Pan Gu, the giant from ancient Chinese mythology who established the world by separating yin from yang to create the Earth and the sky.

“Panguite is an especially exciting discovery since it is not only a new mineral, but also a material previously unknown to science,” says Chi Ma, from Caltech and author of a new paper detailing the discovery.

The Allende meteorite arrived at Earth in 1969 as an exploding fireball in the skies over Mexico, scattering thousands of pieces of meteorites across the state of Chihuahua. The Allende meteorite is the largest carbonaceous chondrite—a diverse class of primitive meteorites—ever found on our planet and is considered by many the best-studied meteorite in history.

Ma has been leading nanomineralogy investigations of primitive meteorites, which looks at tiny particles of minerals, and has now found nine new minerals, including allendeite, hexamolybdenum, tistarite, kangite and now panguite.

“The intensive studies of objects in this meteorite have had a tremendous influence on current thinking about processes, timing, and chemistry in the primitive solar nebula and small planetary bodies,” said coauthor George Rossman, also from Caltech.

The team said the new mineral is likely among the first solid objects formed in our solar system and could date back to over 4 billion years ago, before the formation of Earth and the other planets.

According to Ma, studies of panguite and other newly discovered refractory minerals are continuing in an effort to learn more about the conditions under which they formed and subsequently evolved. “Such investigations are essential to understand the origins of our solar system,” he said.

The new mineral’s chemical name is Ti4+,Sc,Al,Mg,Zr,Ca, so it contains some unusual elements like zirconium and scandium.

The mineral and the mineral name have been approved by the International Mineralogical Association’s Commission on New Minerals, Nomenclature and Classification.

Well I.E. I followed your link and found that there really isn't anything wrong with what I posted. However, the majority of the RECOVERED meterorites are stony, but that doesn't mean that we have recovered them all. So are you making a judgment based upon your own personal disdain for "Bible-thupmers"?

There was a time that you and I traded shots, and I have given it a day to let your response, and my reactions steep, but in the end I didn't find anything that disqualified what I posted.

Iron/stony is made up of the metals iron and or nickel

Stony: obvious

Btw, this was taken from you 2nd link the first pdf was too large.

The bottom line from those links is that only a small fraction (e.g. around 10%) of meteorites contain nickel. And then those only contain a very small amount of nickel, in the form of iron/nickel alloy.

You're looking at this completely backwards. What you're doing is picking out one thing that *could* raise a question about the age of the earth, if you squint hard enough & also assume God is in the gaps (by that I'm referring to your point about what isn't known - or, the "un-recovered" nickel-heavy meteorite population that may be hiding from mankind). It's the classic, "can't see the forest because the trees are in the way" ... there are thousands - millions, maybe - of separte pieces of evidence that indicate the age of the Earth, planets, sun, universe, etc. You can't simply ignore all that, because you doubt the statistical significance of the composition of recovered meteorites. Well, I guess you can - but you won't be taken seriously in any discussion about science (or statistics, or math).

It doesn't matter if you & I agreed or disagreed in the past. This post could have been by anyone, and I'd behave in the same way regardless.

To me, the personal, Christian God clearly doesn't exist. And I don't need the concept to get through life a happy, satisfied person. I'm not saying there isn't a place for Him & what he represents & brings into an awful lot of people's lives ... in people's belief systems and culture. You'd have to look hard to find a culture in the entire history of Earth where there wasn't a prevailing belief in higher powers - for many good reasons. There is value and reality in the process and experience you have when you are in the mental state where you are "talking to God". But there are a multitude of ways for man to experience his own "nirvana", and "commingle with the gods" in attempt to better understand life.

Where I get unnerved is when people think and act as if they have the "only way" and are somehow "special" ... and they start constructing complete fantasy worlds to justify and map to their belief systems (like the silly meteorite thing, or Intelligent Design, or the world is 6000 years old and Jesus's pet dinosaur didn't make it onto Noah's boat crap)... that is where I believe mankind needs to draw the line & keep from taking giant leaps backwards into darkness and ignorance. And avoid war and other evils brought about by "us vs them".

My bottom line:

Not a fantasy: the value and personal/mental/physical experience you get out of prayer, fellowship, and "right-living"Fantasy: any attempt to reconcile science with god-based religion

Meteorites do indeed contain nickel, and in higher concentrations than what can be found in terrestrial rocks. However, that doesn't validate the claim above. Metallic nickel is highly reactive with oxygen, so this "nickel dust" would oxidize on Earth, generating a non-metallic form of nickel (a nickel-containing compound). Thus, nickel is all over the place, just not in metallic form or in its pure (Ni) form.

That's what I read about it, anyway. I'm not a chemist.

_________________Proud member of the Contract Extension for Schwartz Fan Club.

June 27th, 2012, 4:57 pm

regularjoe12

Def. Coordinator – Teryl Austin

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 amPosts: 4211Location: Davison Mi

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

Quote:

Where I get unnerved is when people think and act as if they have the "only way" and are somehow "special" ... and they start constructing complete fantasy worlds to justify and map to their belief systems (like the silly meteorite thing, or Intelligent Design, or the world is 6000 years old and Jesus's pet dinosaur didn't make it onto Noah's boat crap)... that is where I believe mankind needs to draw the line & keep from taking giant leaps backwards into darkness and ignorance. And avoid war and other evils brought about by "us vs them".

Very Valid Point I.E. and that is also a poijnt of annoyance with me concerning many Christians. Christ stood for love patience and tollerance, yet too many christians are willing to damn you to hell for not seeing the world like they do. A word of caution for you though. In your negative views of theology...be careful not to become one of the people you dislike above. "nonbelievers" (for lack of a better word) are JUST as capable of being "that guy" as the zelots are.

i do have a question for you though, can you elaborate on this please? I didnt really understand your message.

Quote:

Not a fantasy: the value and personal/mental/physical experience you get out of prayer, fellowship, and "right-living"Fantasy: any attempt to reconcile science with god-based religion

_________________2013 Lionbacker Fantasy Football Champion

June 27th, 2012, 5:59 pm

I.E.

Walk On

Joined: September 11th, 2010, 10:19 pmPosts: 408

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

regularjoe12 wrote:

Quote:

Where I get unnerved is when people think and act as if they have the "only way" and are somehow "special" ... and they start constructing complete fantasy worlds to justify and map to their belief systems (like the silly meteorite thing, or Intelligent Design, or the world is 6000 years old and Jesus's pet dinosaur didn't make it onto Noah's boat crap)... that is where I believe mankind needs to draw the line & keep from taking giant leaps backwards into darkness and ignorance. And avoid war and other evils brought about by "us vs them".

Very Valid Point I.E. and that is also a poijnt of annoyance with me concerning many Christians. Christ stood for love patience and tollerance, yet too many christians are willing to damn you to hell for not seeing the world like they do. A word of caution for you though. In your negative views of theology...be careful not to become one of the people you dislike above. "nonbelievers" (for lack of a better word) are JUST as capable of being "that guy" as the zelots are.

i do have a question for you though, can you elaborate on this please? I didnt really understand your message.

Quote:

Not a fantasy: the value and personal/mental/physical experience you get out of prayer, fellowship, and "right-living"Fantasy: any attempt to reconcile science with god-based religion

I don't have intolerance for religion. That's what I meant by it having value & a meaningful place in some people's reality (e.g. and that value is "not a fantasy")... and I recognize all that, and don't judge people for immersing themselves in it to whatever degree or for whatever reasons.

Where I do have intolerance is when someone assumes that there is something missing from me (or other people), because I/we don't seek to fill voids or arrive at answers to the meaning of life through religious mechanisms. Especially Abrahamic religious mechanisms.

June 27th, 2012, 6:29 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3056Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

IE, please don't take this wrong, I am not writing this mean spirited in any way, and I'm afraid it will read more harsh than it is really meant to be.

First, I can only speak for myself in saying that my job or duty as a Born Again Christian is not to point out your flaws and tell you what you need. Instead, my job is to demonstrate the love of Jesus as often, and however I can. Between you and I, I haven't done that well at all. We've argued, traded shots and darn near come to blows in this chat room in days gone by. As of late, I have worked really hard to ensure that I don't step back into that pattern but am not always successful.

Second, it's not about you, or any other non-believer, it has always been about Jesus. Your disdain saddens me, especially as I realize that I've played a part in developing some of that ire.

Third, I can only speak of what I know, and filter it through the experiences of my life. So much of what I've written is from my perspective, but I use it in hopes of illustrating the pictures and experiences that I see in my life, so that it can translate to those who have questions.

Fourth, and finally, you don't lead a man by using force, that's assualt, you lead by example and being willing to demonstrate, and teach along the way. As I've experienced some things in the last few years my perspective has changed and I am definitely leaning on the more grace, love and mercy side. I'm not going to hit you with a Bible and tell you what a God awful sinner you are, because for every finger I point at you, I have 3 looking back at me. But as I've told Pablo, and Blue, and many others, what I can do is carry you in prayer, and leave the results up to Him. Ultimately, everyone will have to make a choice, I just hope to have some more Lions fans join my in Heaven.

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

June 28th, 2012, 12:38 am

I.E.

Walk On

Joined: September 11th, 2010, 10:19 pmPosts: 408

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

WarEr4Christ wrote:

IE, please don't take this wrong, I am not writing this mean spirited in any way, and I'm afraid it will read more harsh than it is really meant to be.

First, I can only speak for myself in saying that my job or duty as a Born Again Christian is not to point out your flaws and tell you what you need. Instead, my job is to demonstrate the love of Jesus as often, and however I can. Between you and I, I haven't done that well at all. We've argued, traded shots and darn near come to blows in this chat room in days gone by. As of late, I have worked really hard to ensure that I don't step back into that pattern but am not always successful.

Second, it's not about you, or any other non-believer, it has always been about Jesus. Your disdain saddens me, especially as I realize that I've played a part in developing some of that ire.

Third, I can only speak of what I know, and filter it through the experiences of my life. So much of what I've written is from my perspective, but I use it in hopes of illustrating the pictures and experiences that I see in my life, so that it can translate to those who have questions.

Fourth, and finally, you don't lead a man by using force, that's assualt, you lead by example and being willing to demonstrate, and teach along the way. As I've experienced some things in the last few years my perspective has changed and I am definitely leaning on the more grace, love and mercy side. I'm not going to hit you with a Bible and tell you what a God awful sinner you are, because for every finger I point at you, I have 3 looking back at me. But as I've told Pablo, and Blue, and many others, what I can do is carry you in prayer, and leave the results up to Him. Ultimately, everyone will have to make a choice, I just hope to have some more Lions fans join my in Heaven.

Dude... I don't know exactly what it is, but it isn't disdain - more like a combination of frustration from having to repeatedly squash antiscientific nonsense, combined with a patronizing feeling that isn't too different from when my 16 year old daughter acts like she has all the answers.

It is obvious that you consider yourself a leader/and example... but don't assume other people view you that way. You're only a leader when other people clearly tell you that's how they view you, and act accordingly. Otherwise, your role is something different.

The concept of "sin", to me, is a meaningless word - so that whole line is like my 13 year old son coming up to me and telling me he isn't going to lecture me about me breaking the rules of some video game he plays but I don't.

June 28th, 2012, 7:20 am

frok

Varsity Captain

Joined: August 9th, 2004, 1:51 amPosts: 304Location: kalamazoo,mi

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

This may be a dumb question/statement. It was mentioned in this subject and others. What is the difference between a christian and "Born again Christian"

Frok

_________________I feel more like I do now than when I first got here.

June 28th, 2012, 8:11 am

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3056Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

I will continue to speak out of what I know, and let others identify themselves where they may. A Christian is the term given to a "Christ follower" so that encompasses Catholics, Prebs, Lutheran, Baptists, and so on. A Born Again Christian is someone who has chosen to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and this isn't necessarily taught in other denominations, and so there for has become a "New Creation" after having accepted Jesus into their lives.

How many polls do we see where 80% of Americans identify themselves as being Christian. I would hazard to guess that it's in name only, but I don't want to judge another man/woman for their belief pattern.

The only thing I can control is my own personal walk with the Lord and as I said either above or in another window, I try very hard to live the example, and pray for those the Lord lays upon my heart. Frok, in conversations we have had, you seem very hungry and I appreciate your questions. We don't know until we A.S.K. and it's when we ask that the answers are given.

Matthew 7:7-8 says, "7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."

So I hope this answers your question and I will be in prayer for you as well, asking specifically, Ephesians 1:17-19a, "17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit[f] of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe.

To put all of the above in one word I would have to say "committment" but that sounded to judgmental without explanation... have a great day

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

June 28th, 2012, 8:36 am

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3056Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: 6 Days = 15+ Billion Years. The Genesis Code.

IE,

Actually I am a leader by nature, and by position, the choice is up to the individual whether or not they follow. Does that mean that I walk around with my Napoleon hat, and start strutting my stuff, not really or at least I hope not. Instead I approach each situation that I find myself in, general as subservient. Keep in my that this is an internet chat room, so physically you can not see how I approach life, but if I see a task that needs doing, I do it. I don't care how dirty, gross, or unglorifying the task is, if it needs done and helps the team, I'm doing it. Lead by example, it's not only a statement, it's a calling for me.

In truth, I don't need anyone to follow me, because that's glory seeking, and pridefull. I serve and give my best effort as often as I can, and trust me there are days that I don't, but I don't walk around clamoring I'm a leader follow me, because if I did, then my beliefs would no longer be about Jesus Christ, but about me, and I'm powerless to save myself, let alone others.

You have mentioned science several times, and I see you and others weigh heavily into that for your belief structure, or lack thereof but I wonder how can anyone quantify Spirit?

1st Century Christians taught of a 3 part man, Body, Soul, and Spirit.

Body is obviously the physical, tangibleSoul is the emotion and thought and Spirit is who we truly are.

As I've aged, and grown, I have learned that the 1st Century church did indeed have it right, and where the difficulty lies is that for all of our smarts in 2012, faith has become all but non-existant. We have faith that we'll have our next breath, next day, next whatever, but where's the guarantee?

It is my hope that in some way, some form our conversations will no longer be antagonistic but will develop more civility, and even into a chat room friendship. We don't have to drink beer and agree on everything, but I don't want to go back to belittling and arguing either.

So my apologies if the scientific information that I found wasn't up to par with your standards, my mind doesn't think along those lines so I do the best with what I do find, and leave the results up to Him. Have a great day

You have mentioned science several times, and I see you and others weigh heavily into that for your belief structure, or lack thereof but I wonder how can anyone quantify Spirit?

I don't want to get in the middle of a personal conversation here, but I just want to weigh in on this part of your comment. I think one area that causes some of the lack of understanding is the concept of science being a part of a belief system/structure. To me, it's not a matter of beliefs. It's a matter of science being able to explain things. When there is enough evidence, scientists are able to offer an explanation of things. When there isn't yet enough information, they offer what the current evidence seems to suggest, with the caveat that it is still being investigated/researched. There is no part of that that offers or requires belief. It is either provable or it isn't. That's the scientific process. Gather information, form a hypothesis, test the hypothesis, and based on the results either confirm it, or go back and gather more information/do more testing. Repeat until you are able to prove or disprove something definitively.

Many people I know who have faith in one religion or another seem to have trouble separating the idea that there must be faith/belief from the scientific process. There is no faith. It is either known or not, and if not, science keeps researching it.

Here's a good video (it's about 4 minutes long) with Neil deGrasse Tyson explaining how he views his concept of "God of the gaps". I happen to agree with him. In case you don't know who he is, Mr. Tyson is a fairly prominent Astrophysicist who has won numerous awards, both for his public speaking and the quality of his science. He's kind of an expert on this stuff.

_________________"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” - Neil deGrasse Tyson