We are thinking of putting up a climb on a very cool wall in Du Toits's Kloof, but are not sure whether people would actually do the walk-in to climb it. How far would people walk to climb a good well bolted multi-pitch climb? There are not enough big multi-pitch climbs in the Western Cape!!!

How popular is the existing bolted line on Yellowwood Amphitheatre ...? Personally I think folk need to think very carefully before bolting long routes willy-nilly ! I am starting to get slightly alarmed by the current \"need\" to bolt absolutely everything. What about a new, long trad route ? Wouldn't that be revolutionary ?

Not everyone knows about that line, right? and you can't tell me if it was more in the grade 21-25 range that it would have alot more ascents!!! There is no 'need' to bolts everything, however being high up on a wall is one of the things i love doing be it on bolts or trad and would be a nice change from the local 20m crags. We are first picking off all the older routes(Oceans, etc) before venturing out to open routes on bigger walls, but is defintely in the plans. We go through phases, trad one month bolted the next - no fixed plans, just like to go out any enjoy the day.

Stu, I think it is a great idea to bolt some cool multi-pitch routes. The only proper multi-pitch sport routes in the western cape that I know of is on the Cogman's buttress in Montagu. I think we need more multi-pitch routes. My goal is to eventually save enough money to buy my trad rack and do trad, but till then the best exposure is on multi-p sport routes. +- how many pitches would the route be. Al the people that I know wouldnt mind the long walk-in. I can assure you that I would be one of the first people in line to climb your route(if the grading is not to steep;)

Hmmm, How long is a piece string? Long walk-in's are relative.... bolt her up, please Stu!! Have feet, will walk! When I moved to the Cape I was quite flummoxed to see so few multi-pitch sport routes, what with so much rock around and all. If people are willing to do the mega walk-in to Giant's Castle for some meager ice-climbing, then I'm sure loads will make the trek for a good multi-pitch bolt ladder! I'll give it a bushwacking bash for sure. What's the distance? ... and the grade of the route/s?

People are willing to walk to climb good rock. What you need to consider is if an average climbing group can make the walk-in, do the climb and walk back mostly in daylight. If the entire round trip is more than say 14 hrs you may have a problem getting good traffic on your route, except for the die-hards of course!!

Whoa, ok so I guess that's the kind of response I was hoping for!! The route would probably be in the 11-14 pitch range with about a 2 hour walk-in (carrying sport gear). Gareth, it is however still in the planning stages, so no line yet. I don't want to give away locations, only because this might take a while to finish, but hopefully will inspre others to do the same. We have some of the most amazing 500m faces that could provide tons of amazing climbs.

Man, these forums can be tricky! What I meant by my Oceans comment was that we are first going to go climb some of the existing routes ie. Oceans, Children of the Sky, etc. before attemting to open anything on trad. (who in their right mind would attempt to bolt Oceans). Cogman's and Milner, hmm, not alot is it? We could use one or two more places to do some multi-pitch stuff in my opinion. Before we go seek permission(which we will do) to bolt a line we want to get all the facts straight before doing so. we are searching for good trad lines at the same time so the walk-ins won't be total waste of time.

I suggest rather than spew what routes you dudes are intending to do go out there and do them. In fact do as many of them as you can. This will give you a good idea of what has been done, what is possible and the accepted ethic involved. Then leave your drill at home and try sticking your neck out on the sharp end on something new. But do not just bolt something for the sake of bolting it. Think very carefully what you are doing and what the consequences of your actions are. The rock is older than any of us, or this forum and deserves a certain amount of respect.

The effort required to bolt a 14 pitch route would be beyond immense not to mention the cost. Rather you than me. How would you begin? Ground up?...Finding the best line would be tricky. With out being negitave: There must be so many potential trad lines waiting to go in Du Toits Kloof. With all that potential is there time to focus on bolting a single line. Trad is the way forward. On the legal side...how will they catch you? Du Toits is big. Go for it - I will sponsor the longest pitch

Yeah, wasn't sure whether I should post or not, because if we don't do it we are accused of bold comments, without backing them up. the focus is on having fun so going and trying to finish the route as quickly as possible is not on the cards, rather space it out over a year or longer while camping out and climbing other routes. doing as many pitches as the batteries will provide and giving it a rest. If you check out my first post, you will see that I was just throwing it out there, I really wanted to see what people were thinking around multi-pitch climbs and as usual it looks like some people will lynch us and others gladly just do the walk-in. Hey Derek, nice one, don't be surprised if you get an e-mail requesting those bolts in about a year or so!!

Responding to the original question: > It depends on how hard the climb is - if it's too difficult for the masses (self included) then we won't be interested. > A 2 hour walk-in +14 pitches + walk-out would make it a long day. Remember the driving time too. That said, I do feel the more multi-pitch routes the better and I reckon would do it if I'm up to the grade. One more thing - what about a mixed route, i.e. just put in bolts where there is no natural gear? This is less likely to offend some folk, but the climbers would still have to have a trad rack. It might be worth a try, while keeping the cost of opening the route down.

The offer stands - go for it. Your route will be more than worth while. who cares who climbs it. Don't worry to much about the opinions of the lynch mob. Opinions are like arse holes... every one has got one. We(climbers in SA) all love to throw stones at someone who is attempting to do something. It happens time and again. We all have our turn at throwing and being thrown at.

Following up on my mountain talk thing, now that I have seen where all the fuss is. If stu wants to bolt a new line then he should go for it, I might have a problem with a line of bolts on TM or Wolfberg though. Do a proper job dude. The route should be a 14 hour round trip max, car to car, and not follow a realy good tradable line. Way to go. In Switzerland there are 22 pitch sport routes that start off glaciers, what a pleasure !!!!

Following up on my mountain talk thing, now that I have seen where all the fuss is. If stu wants to bolt a new line then he should go for it, I might have a problem with a line of bolts on TM or Wolfberg though. Do a proper job dude. The route should be a 14 hour round trip max, car to car, and not follow a realy good tradable line. Way to go. In Switzerland there are 22 pitch sport routes that start off glaciers, what a pleasure !!!!

The climb would probably be in the 20-24 range with a roundtrip of about 14 hours (definetly a day route). We would like to do a trad line, but would like a completely bolted route as well, it has a different feel to it, though if we find a descent trad line would probably open that, so its all up in the air. Bolting over a tradable line is not something we would quickly do and would try and keep it to a good boltable line. What's wrong with bolts on TM or at wolfberg? Derek, you gotta love those lengthy 20 bolt pitches hey!!

Glad to hear some sense is being expressed. Can only echo Leo's comments though. But, if folk need question the validity of bolts on TM, Wolfberg etc., we are facing a bigger problem that I already fear. As someone has already said, trad is the way forward. All the bolts have been useful in getting people physically stronger. Now lets get those minds stronger, and start working on developing testicular dimensions !! )

Trad is definetly the way forward, there's on ly so many times you can go down to your local crag? The question is how do you introduce or interest people to something new? i was also a sport fanatic until I got injured and thought i would do some easy trad until healed, it changed my outlook on climbing, although a little daunting starting. Derek was more sending a nudge your way as to the longer the pitch the more bolts I get from you. Anyway at least I have a much better idea of what people are thinking and what and not to do. Thanks.

Sounds like it could be an interesting route, stu. Please bear in mind, though, that bolting in many areas is illegal. It is certainly illegal on CNC land (Du Toits) and National Parks land. Like it or not, these guys have the power to completely ban climbing in their areas. Completely. No trad no sport no nada. Ok, so you may not get caught, true. But... sooner or later they will find out, and this could jeopardise access for everybody. Imagine being known as the chop who got climbing banned for everyone. It is a battle enough as it is to get organisations such as CNC to take climbers seriously (just ask anyone who's had to deal with them in meetings... ask Guy Holwill, ask Ross Suter, Andy Davies... review the ongoing saga of climbing in Rocklands). Campaign and fight for your climbing rights, but don't screw it up for everyone who's put in lank work to keep our access. There is a group of climbers who are dealing with these issues by approaching the authorities with reasonable dialogue. Backed by the MCSA, they hope to ensure access for all climbers (not just MCSA members), and provide a link between the climbing community and organisations who would otherwise be quick to label us as destructive mountain users. Be careful when considering bolting.

Just to pint out a possible error in the trad argument, as far as I recall Yellowood amphitheatre is not CNC land but is part of a neighbouring farm Gewonden. Also most of the existing sport crags around Cape Town were originally bolted illegaly. The process of negotiation with CNC is so slow that we will all probably be dead long before they reach any management plan for sport climbing. We have been trying to get an answer as to the status of a certain crag we started developing 12 years ago and were recently told that the crag in question has never been tabled for discussion nor can we expect the MCSA to raise it CNC in the forseeable future, meantime other crags in the Cedarberg that were developed (also illegally) long after our pet crag have been pushed to the fore and bolting now legalised. There is no justice in this world!! We are so radically behind European climbing and the authorities are so totally clueless that one wonders if the scene will ever be 'allowed' to get off the ground? I did my first multi pitch route this weekend (one of Stu's routes) and it was a fantastic experience, great to cover so much rock and feel safe. More please!!! If the authorities dont wake up and pull their heads out of the sand (their arses?) the scene will arrive whether they are ready or not. Word is getting out overseas about how much good undeveloped rock there is here, I can see an explosion of development happening and if 'they' arent ready it is going to be totally unregulated and possibly very messy. Pissed off landowners, bad bolting etc etc.

CNC is spread over a huge area. They have very bleak chance of catching up with climbers & what would they do any way? Its our respect of their reign that gives them most of their power. How do you keep climbers out of Du Toits Kloof? Guards, dogs, fences...come on!! We pay taxes. Those are our mountains. Who do they think they are? They should be out removing the alien veg that is really threatening our mountains. Prehaps they could enlist our help...

Problem is really that there are so many different opinions out there and even from prominent climbers in important places in the MCSA. No names but I asked the opinion of a long standing member associated with the MCSA and bolting issues and he said just go ahead and bolt, don't ask anyone. This coming from a guy involved in the tricky process of getting permission. Gri you might have me confused with the Montagu Stu(StuBoy on this thread). Are you sure about Yellowwood, could be a coue?