Ongoing saga of Artest and NY Knicks... (MERGED)

Same author as the one yesterday, so take it for what its worth. The NY press was beating the drums nonstop back in the Webber free agency days too, only to discover that them saying stuff didn't magically make it true. Anyway, there's a little more non-specualtive stuff today than there was yesterday -- note the comment from Ron's agent:

ARTEST-ING THE MARKET
ISIAH CONSIDERS TRADING FOR RONBy MARC BERMAN

July 4, 2007 -- Rashard Lewis is off the table, Ron Artest is on the block, and Isiah Thomas must decide if it's worth trading David Lee to the Kings to put his former Indiana star on the Knicks.

With Lewis agreeing in principle to sign with the under-the-salary-cap Magic, Thomas can concentrate his sights and trade assets on a run at Artest, who played three seasons for Thomas in Indiana but now is being shopped in Sacramento.

Thomas, who negotiated with Lewis' agent July 1, also has spoken to the Kings about Artest.

Lewis' signing in Orlando is a double blow to the Knicks, who could be fighting it out with the Magic for a final playoff seed. Orlando made the playoffs last season, in the eighth slot.

When Artest was peddled by Indiana 18 months ago, the Knicks had tepid interest. Thomas had a brief conversation with Pacers president Donnie Walsh and told him he wasn't willing to give up any of his young players. The conversation ended there.

Times have changed. The Knicks are in a different place following the Zach Randolph trade. The organization believes it is not that far away from competing for the conference title in the awful East and is willing to part with a young player or two. They now boast as much talent as any Knicks team since the 1998-99 version that went to the NBA Finals.

The Knicks always could wait on Artest, 27, until next summer, when he may opt out of his contract for 2008-09. Artest is on record saying in his final days in Indiana he didn't care where he was traded, he'd still opt out in 2008 to sign with the Knicks. Thomas is comfortable with his roster, but said Monday, "I don't consider this a finished product by any stretch."

"Let it be known Ron loves Isiah, always has," Artest's agent, Mark Stevens, told The Post yesterday. "Being a Knick, that's his childhood dream. He's a New Yorker. We'll see if it happens."

If it was once, Artest's baggage is no longer considered a major deterrent, especially because Thomas has coached him. Owner James Dolan's philosophy is not to judge a player on his past but on what he does as a Knick.

Dolan, a recovering alcoholic and former cocaine user, believes in second chances, as the Vin Baker signing showed and the Randolph deal confirmed. Artest's list of NBA suspensions, low-lighted by the brawl with the Pistons, will not scare away the Knicks.

Small forward is their lone weak link, with Quentin Richardson, coming off disk surgery, and offensively challenged Jared Jeffries sharing duties. The Knicks need to improve their perimeter defense to make up for the poor interior "D" of big men Eddy Curry and Randolph.

Thomas never has wavered on his belief Artest is an elite player, even when his image was battered. When Artest was traded for Peja Stojakovic, Thomas' lone comment was a subdued, "He's a great player."

Offering Lee could seal a package with the Kings. But that may not be a popular move with Knicks fans, who loved Lee's rebounding and hustle. Lee averaged a double-double last season and is a leading Sixth Man of the Year candidate. On the flip side, the Knicks have a Lee-in-the-making, Renaldo Balkman.

For now, Thomas would rather make available Jeffries or Malik Rose and a prospect or two, either Randolph Morris, Mardy Collins, Nate Robinson or Balkman. First-round pick Wilson Chandler and Demetris Nichols also can be traded because they have not yet signed a contract. The total aggregate of salary going back to Sacramento would have to total in the $8 million range.marc.berman@nypost.com

As long as we don't take back a horrible contract like Jeffries then I'll be OK with the deal. If we don't get Lee then we would have to get Balkman and Collins at least. But I'm not getting my hopes up that a deal will go through.

Give me Lee, Collins and Rose (shortest of their contracts) and I might go for it. A problem here is that the Knicks would have a hole open then with their backup bigs if they moved Lee, having only too young/unproven Randolph Morris (pure center), Trash Bag man (trash bag game too -- another pure center), and then Balkman at a way way undersized about 6'8" 210. Jeffries can play up there a little, but not a lot. Guess you can swing Ron.

Maybe we could promise them that when the restictions lift on the Jones and Dickau expirings in a couple of months we'd be graciously willing to swap them KT for those guys to fill the gap.

I have long preferred trading Bibby first over Artest. Mainly because the later is far more valuable on the court at this point than the former, the contract situation regarding each, and if there's ongoing chemistry problems with them playing together why move both unless the deal is right for the Kings.

David Lee for Ron Artest is the kind of deal I would make with the Knicks, and I'd hold out for it. If Isiah won't pull the trigger on that one I would just wait for other teams offers - they'll be forthcoming.

Give me Lee, Collins and Rose (shortest of their contracts) and I might go for it. A problem here is that the Knicks would have a hole open then with their backup bigs if they moved Lee, having only too young/unproven Randolph Morris (pure center), Trash Bag man (trash bag game too -- another pure center), and then Balkman at a way way undersized about 6'8" 210. Jeffries can play up there a little, but not a lot. Guess you can swing Ron.

Maybe we could promise them that when the restictions lift on the Jones and Dickau expirings in a couple of months we'd be graciously willing to swap them KT for those guys to fill the gap.

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I don't know if I would want to take on Rose's contract without sending Thomas the other way.

Apart from Lee, Collins and their future 1st round pick, I really can't see anything that would interest me from Knicks. They just don't have the pieces so they would have to do a multiple team trade to get us what we really want. I just don't want us taking on any more bad contracts. Artest is pretty much an expiring contract so trading him for another longer contract defeats the purpouse.

I don't know if I would want to take on Rose's contract without sending Thomas the other way.

Apart from Lee, Collins and their future 1st round pick, I really can't see anything that would interest me from Knicks. They just don't have the pieces so they would have to do a multiple team trade to get us what we really want. I just don't want us taking on any more bad contracts. Artest is pretty much an expiring contract so trading him for another longer contract defeats the purpouse.

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Unfortunately there is no way NOT to trade him for a longer contract when you are dealing with the Knicks, other than waiting until the enders finally clear up in September. But by that time the opportunity may be lost. Hence Rose -- its a bad contract of course, but only 2 years of badness (which actually could be how long Ron's is if he doesn't opt out).

The real key being young talent on the way in. Marginally bad 2 yr contracts are ok as long as young talent comes with it IMO. And Lee gobbled up rebunds last year at a faster rate than Dwight Howard or KG. Be nice to involve a third team or some such, but just getting them to let go of Lee would be hard enough, let alone the rest. And Lee only earns $1mil.

Lee came into Arco last year and grabbed like 16 rebounds and totally took every loose ball away from our anemic front line....I was a fan of Lee before he ever played a game when I watched him in the Summer League. Lee is just scratching the surface of what he can do because he has never played big minutes....he's like a Luke Walkton in terms of hustle, but more skilled and more athletic; and he's really adept with either hand around the basket.

It should be noted Lee shot 60% last year b/c he never takes dumb shots, unlike the other bigs mentioned out there (Nene and Darko), makes very smart decisions with the ball and is VERY good passer for his position, again unlike the other bigs mentioned (Nene and Darko).

If we could get Lee and Nate Robinson (and throw-ins) for Artest, that'd be a GREAT trade.

As far as Hedo, been there, done that. KT for Hedo...yes. Artest for Hedo? NO!!!

Lee came into Arco and grabbed like 16 rebounds and totally took every loose ball away from our anemic front line....I was a fan of Lee before he ever played a game when I watched in the Summer League. Lee is just scratching the surface of what he can do because he has never played big minutes....he's like a Luke Walkton in terms of hustle, but more skilled and more athletic; and he's really adept with either hand around the basket.

If we could get Lee and Nate Robinson (and throw-ins) for Artest, that'd be a GREAT trade.

As far as Hedo, been there, done that. KT for Hedo...yes. Artest for Hedo? NO!!!

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Walton may be more skilled actually, but that's about it. I'd prefer Lee and Balkman than Lee and Nate, but as said before it would be hard to get Lee alone, never mind another young piece. But I basically agree with your post.

It should be noted Lee shot 60% last year b/c he never takes dumb shots, unlike the other bigs mentioned out there (Nene and Darko), makes very smary decisions with the ball and is VERY good passer for his position, again unlike the other bigs mentioned (Nene and Darko).

If we could get Lee and Nate Robinson (and throw-ins) for Artest, that'd be a GREAT trade.

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Darko..comes an goes.

However Nene shot 57% last year. After he started to get into shape and moved into the starting lineup he shot 57.5% in February, 60.3% in March, and 71.6% (!) in April. And this as an actual offensive weapon called upon to create shots for himself from time to time. Lee is a garbageman. Nene a guy you throw the ball to in the post. Big difference.

I like Lee for what he brings, but let's not exaggerate here. He's a hustle guy. A garbageman supreme. Offensively he doesn't have the potential of either of those guys. Fortunately he is not valued for his offense.

And I don't think you really want Nate. Trust me on this. Something the matter with that kid. I briefly loved his competitiveness right out of college, but it soon became evidcent that it wasn't so much competitivemess as jsut being a hyperactive jerk. He's like a Jack Russel terrier on crack. Nobody likes him. Is a reason the Knicks want him gone.

The thing about David Lee is that he's not just a great rebounder, he's also a strong finisher. That's what makes him so much more effective than someone like, say, Reggie Evans. He's kind of a specialized player and he wouldn't solve the shotblocking issue, obviously, but he's a force on the glass.

Who would you guys rather have, Darko or David Lee? I'm actually not sure myself at this point.

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Lee is already contributing, but Darko has more potential. Lee is 24 and Darko is just gone 22. It's a toss up, but I think I'd go with Potential and go with Darko, he has more time to improve and could blossom with playing time.

For us to give up our "best" player then we need to be able to get a player that fills our needs very well. We SUCK at rebounding...Lee is GREAT at rebounding..we suck with athleticism in the front court, Lee is fairly athletic. If the Knicks want Artest, then Lee is the bare minimum asking price. It's a simple as that. Lee is a very nice player, but he's still a ROLE player in that he will never be the focal point or difference maker of the game on a consistent basis. He may do those little things that help win games, but he'll never be the focal of the offense OR defense.

I think Jones/Dickau expirings would come our way as well, and I beleive a Kenny/Rose swap would benefit both teams as well.

Ron/Kenny

for

Lee/Jones/Dickau/Rose

That helps us to rebuild.

And I'm in the camp that IF we deal one of Mike or Ron, I'd actually prefer Ron because replacing him at the 3 will be easier than replacing Mike at the 1(opportunity cost). Also I think Ron has more value and appeal in the league and is more feasible in deals that include Kenny due to his contract. So IF we have to deal one, I'd slightly prefer Artest.

Ideally, I'd like to just sign Darko with the MLE and call it an off-season and go from there.

If Zeke wants Artest as badly as it seems it's hard for me to believe he wouldn't be willing to give up Lee at some point. As many "issues" as Ron has he is a unique talent. If Isiah believes he can get pre-brawl Ron to work with and I think that may be his belief. Then hubris is working against him and for us. Because if he truly believes that he'll give up Lee.

I agree with Brick Lee while not a savior by any means turns a potential disaster into something to at least build on.

I'd love to just sign Darko with the MLE as well, but with the Kings current standing I doubt he would come here with all of the other options he'll have.

The thing that worries me with Lee as Smills said, he will never be the focal point of a team. He is a great rebounder and with starting minutes he could lead the league. He's also a very efficient scorer that could average 15 points a game on high percentage shooting. Of course he is a player that would be great to have, but he's not a superstar. However I seriously doubt we're going to get our superstar in the Artest trade.

Darko could develop into a superstar or into a less efficent David Lee, you know more of what you're getting with Lee. With risk vs. reward it is a tough decision.

The only way this would work would be in a three way trade in which Artest goes to the Knicks, Hedo to the Kings, Lee and future/current prospect to the Magic.

I'd like to see Hedo back in town and Artest going to a team in which he'll fit in a bit more. Not that he doesn't fit in Sac it's just isn't what the Kings need, they need a scorer at the 3 position. Defense is something that must be played as a team and one guy like Artest isn't going to fix that.

Who would you guys rather have, Darko or David Lee? I'm actually not sure myself at this point.

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Lee has already shown what he can do and that by itself can help us more than Artest. And he can still get better. Darko is pure potential. Either one on the Kings roster would be a welcome sight and a reason for hope.

Lee has already shown what he can do and that by itself can help us more than Artest. And he can still get better. Darko is pure potential. Either one on the Kings roster would be a welcome sight and a reason for hope.

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NO sir make now mistake Lee is not ans will never be as good as Artest on the court. The ONLY reason ANY talk about trading artest is present is because of his off court issues. Ron was our best ALL AROUND player ON the court last season hands down.

The thing that worries me with Lee as Smills said, he will never be the focal point of a team. He is a great rebounder and with starting minutes he could lead the league. He's also a very efficient scorer that could average 15 points a game on high percentage shooting. Of course he is a player that would be great to have, but he's not a superstar. However I seriously doubt we're going to get our superstar in the Artest trade.

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Why should it worry you that he's not going to be the focal point of the team if the guy could lead the league in rebouning and average 15 points per night? Who cares if he's not a superstar? The kings should be begging for a player to do what you say he can do. I don't understand...

The thing that worries me with Lee as Smills said, he will never be the focal point of a team. He is a great rebounder and with starting minutes he could lead the league. He's also a very efficient scorer that could average 15 points a game on high percentage shooting. Of course he is a player that would be great to have, but he's not a superstar. However I seriously doubt we're going to get our superstar in the Artest trade.

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I don't think that the long term plan would to have Lee be the starter at PF. He might start in the short term (the next few years), but I think his ideal spot for a contender is off the bench. Despite being a great rebounder, he has too many of the same defensive deficiencies that we already have in the front court.

I think it is more likely that we look for an athlete PF in the next few drafts that will complement Hawes and play defense. I think Lee comes off the bench as our super 6th man, backs up the 4 spot, plays a little backup 3. He would play the old Bobby Jackson role- the energy guy off the bench who plays about 25 minutes. He showed that he can average 8/8 in those minutes, so he would be a nice energy guy.

He won't be a superstar, and he might not even be a starter, but he would be a very nice piece to the 2010 Sacramento Kings.