i'll concede, if you live in the USA, the price of an M3 is low enough (albeit thrashed), and the N54 price is still high enough to consider it in a 'value' argument, but pretty well anywhere else in the world, unless you want to cheap out on a 'beater' M3, you MIGHT scrape one in in certain parts of the UK/EU (though you can get an N54 powered car handily sub $10k where the M3 will still nudge $30-$40k in USD terms) - and even in the states, you have $30k odd to spend on the N54 (assuming you get a clean one around $20k?) to match the price of a 500hp blown M3. $30k. (assuming the M3 is closer to $40k in a clean state)

in countries like mine, this argument is ridiculous, for the price of a STOCK M3 right now here is like $80-$85k unmolested (you can buy a higher KM thrashed/modified one for $75k right now if you were keen) - where a stock 335i can be had as low as $33k right now (closer to $40k if you want a 6mt) - same deal for a 135i, that's a full $40-$50k to spend on building the car up

I haven't read a single post on this thread today as I want to enjoy my sunday, but I just got an email and glanced at it and saw the M3 N54 debate is still waging. Just want to throw out a little tidbit. Anyone who wants to research a little bit and look into salvage auctions, etc (some states require a dealer license which we have). You can get body damaged 335's of varying years and damage for well under 10 grand, more like 5-7 grand. So say 7 grand for the car, 5 grand body work, add another 7 for the kit, and day another 7 for suspension brakes etc. That's 26 grand for a 650 WHP on the low side, and you have a very well handling, very nice / fun car. I think that's pretty darn cheap. Ill look on my dealer site tomorrow and see what M's go for, and add this in there.

Only problem is you don't know what the other posters business backgrounds are either. You elected to give Vargas unsolicited business advice & people commented on it. Can't see how that would be a surprise.

Vargas is running a known company as as far as anyone here knows you might just as easily be be the mail clerk at yours.

Who said anyone was surprised? I excepted this - this ain't my first rodeo. I am well versed in the ways of the BMW forum communities and their common reactions/responses to drama like this. Where I was wrong was believing that anyone would give 2 $#@!s about any of it. That bad is on me.

i'll concede, if you live in the USA, the price of an M3 is low enough (albeit thrashed), and the N54 price is still high enough to consider it in a 'value' argument, but pretty well anywhere else in the world, unless you want to cheap out on a 'beater' M3, you MIGHT scrape one in in certain parts of the UK/EU (though you can get an N54 powered car handily sub $10k where the M3 will still nudge $30-$40k in USD terms) - and even in the states, you have $30k odd to spend on the N54 (assuming you get a clean one around $20k?) to match the price of a 500hp blown M3. $30k. (assuming the M3 is closer to $40k in a clean state)

in countries like mine, this argument is ridiculous, for the price of a STOCK M3 right now here is like $80-$85k unmolested (you can buy a higher KM thrashed/modified one for $75k right now if you were keen) - where a stock 335i can be had as low as $33k right now (closer to $40k if you want a 6mt) - same deal for a 135i, that's a full $40-$50k to spend on building the car up

Understood... If we are talking that extreme amount of dollars, I guess it can make sense - if it's not going to be tracked, makes even more sense. Why are the M3s you speak of thrashed? Body damage or something? The engine can pretty much withstand thrashing - that's the point of a true S engine in my opinion... I don't think I can abuse my M3 any harder than I do - and it has not had one mechanical issue since it's been off the assembly line (09). Not one. Not saying the N54 isn't reliable, just saying - I wouldn't be concerned with the drivetrain of an M (or N54/5) car - they are built to be driven... You are paying more for the S motor, with that comes reliability in terms of "abuse" conditions. It's built to be basically broken in and then taken to a track. Yeah, brakes would be a sensible upgrade for any true track car, but that's about it IMO... Both good cars - but one is powered by a power-plant engineered for motorsport, the other is a "general" motor. A really really good one, I will admit - but not on the same par. Easier to tune? Heck yeah. Cheaper to tune per dollar? Yeah. Will it ever spin/respond/feel/etc. like an S65 regardless of dollars? No. I just don't think they can truly be compared is all I mean - stock or not. Just my 2 cents.

wow how this thread has gone off course! @Sticky i think you should step in and move all the unnecessary posts and keep this thread on track!! I want to check in to see updates not read people bickering about M vs non-M and Trolls who are business experts. I DEMAND UPDATES!!!

Nothing needs to be moved. As once I do some other random N54 person will just bring up the M3 and it will all start all over again.

omg 98% of the people in the N54 forum probably will never hit a track. They are highway racers. At the end of the day to make a n54 go fast in a straight line is cheaper than an m3. Especially if you consider the costs of the vehicles.

Only to a certain degree and upgraded turbos versus a bolt on supercharger isn't that big of a difference in price when the labor and price for everything is factored in.

For anyone who needs "value" modding the M3 isn't for you. Also keep in mind the cars offer different driving experiences. The M3 is simply more fun to drive and always will be.

ehh... if it really REALLY mattered you'd get something with an Rb or jz and get 500hp for pocket change.. AND a stock N54 powered car (or two) to daily haha for the kinda money we're talking it'd be more like a capable near-1000hp car...

but we're still talking about 10-20k savings AT LEAST between an N54 and S65 powered car, for similar power levels dependant on use, how the power is achieved, where you live blah blah

Understood... If we are talking that extreme amount of dollars, I guess it can make sense - if it's not going to be tracked, makes even more sense. Why are the M3s you speak of thrashed? Body damage or something? The engine can pretty much withstand thrashing - that's the point of a true S engine in my opinion... I don't think I can abuse my M3 any harder than I do - and it has not had one mechanical issue since it's been off the assembly line (09). Not one. Not saying the N54 isn't reliable, just saying - I wouldn't be concerned with the drivetrain of an M (or N54/5) car - they are built to be driven... You are paying more for the S motor, with that comes reliability in terms of "abuse" conditions. It's built to be basically broken in and then taken to a track. Yeah, brakes would be a sensible upgrade for any true track car, but that's about it IMO... Both good cars - but one is powered by a power-plant engineered for motorsport, the other is a "general" motor. A really really good one, I will admit - but not on the same par. Easier to tune? Heck yeah. Cheaper to tune per dollar? Yeah. Will it ever spin/respond/feel/etc. like an S65 regardless of dollars? No. I just don't think they can truly be compared is all I mean - stock or not. Just my 2 cents.

unless i can get a full complete history and know exactly who did what work, knowing it's probably lived it's life on a track, i'd rather spend the same amount of money for something that's been driven moderately hard on the street - it all depends on the owner, if i know them, if their mod history is public.. but if it's $10-15k less with $15k in mods compared to similar examples, i'm going to be suspiscious... on the other hand, if it's all out there and nothing shady (like my build will be) - it could be ridiculously modded and entirely safe (and a bargain! to buy) just for an example, my car, when it's all done, broken in, dynos, photoshoots, how much would you think it's worth, and how much do you think the average suspiscious buyer would be willing to pay?... yeah.. i hope to be proven wrong?

yeah the S65 will take $#@! out of the box that the N54 needs money spent on it for, that's true.. and i'll readily agree, a high powered N/A motor screaming past 8000rpm is something damn special.

and no, they can't truly be compared in many ways.. even as fully built track cars, they would be a different beast entirely, not saying one can or will be superior, both will set ridiculous laptimes or 1/4 times, both will make ridiculous power, and both can be rock solid reliable... one comment i'll make, i don't know of anyone who's reported how a fully forged internal, balanced and lightened crank.. light weight valvetrain/flywheel/etc. etc. feels in response... i'm going to bet it would be a lot closer to the S than the stock N?

ehh... if it really REALLY mattered you'd get something with an Rb or jz and get 500hp for pocket change.. AND a stock N54 powered car (or two) to daily haha for the kinda money we're talking it'd be more like a capable near-1000hp car...

but we're still talking about 10-20k savings AT LEAST between an N54 and S65 powered car, for similar power levels dependant on use, how the power is achieved, where you live blah blah

If it really mattered we'd all be in Mustangs. People who have a BMW are already showing they prioritize more than just straightline performance.

It isn't 10-20k savings unless you are factoring in the price differential between the cars to begin with. The parts themselves once trying to get to higher power levels don't come a ton more cheaply for the N54 or anything.

For me living in Norway it is a complete other picture and i would guess this is for other countries also. Way to much a price diffrence between 335i and the M3. just now the cheapest 335i online in Norway can be had for $73.000,- used 2007 mod. and the cheapest M3 can be had for $142.000 used 08mod. thats $69000 for me to use in mods.. its just way to much money that i can justify upgrading to an M3. fortunatly now vargas has an option for cheap bastards like me!

For me living in Norway it is a complete other picture and i would guess this is for other countries also. Way to much a price diffrence between 335i and the M3. just now the cheapest 335i online in Norway can be had for $73.000,- used 2007 mod. and the cheapest M3 can be had for $142.000 used 08mod. thats $69000 for me to use in mods.. its just way to much money that i can justify upgrading to an M3. fortunatly now vargas has an option for cheap bastards like me!

No, it sounds like the worst place possible to be a car enthusiast. Do they stop you from importing cars in as well?

Those prices are absurd. I'd modify some old car with a huge V8 just to spite the government officials.

Norway is bad but Denmark is worse, I lived there for a year in 2004 and they had a "registration fee" at 225% of the cars price over 50.000DKK (approx. $9000 ) and then a 25% VAT on top of it all, pretty much more than tripled car prices

We can import cars but we have to pay VAT 25% on the value of the car and also if i wanted it registrated i would have to pay taxes and duty. and this is what is killing us.. example a 335i at approx $30.000 from germany and to get it registrated i would have to pay $7500 for vat and then tax/duty to the goverment would be somewhere around $30-40.000. the taxes and duties are regualted by emmisons, weight and how old the car is. so basicly the less motor the cheaper it would be..

We can import cars but we have to pay VAT 25% on the value of the car and also if i wanted it registrated i would have to pay taxes and duty. and this is what is killing us.. example a 335i at approx $30.000 from germany and to get it registrated i would have to pay $7500 for vat and then tax/duty to the goverment would be somewhere around $30-40.000. the taxes and duties are regualted by emmisons, weight and how old the car is. so basicly the less motor the cheaper it would be..

checked bmw.no and you are still in deep s**t $245k for a base model M3, I think Finland also has some insane car tax...

If it really mattered we'd all be in Mustangs. People who have a BMW are already showing they prioritize more than just straightline performance.

It isn't 10-20k savings unless you are factoring in the price differential between the cars to begin with. The parts themselves once trying to get to higher power levels don't come a ton more cheaply for the N54 or anything.

that's true.

yeah i AM factoring in the price difference lol.

well the parts ARE a *bit* cheaper, it just gets hazy depending on what sort of supporting mods you need to factor in pricewise lol.

cars here new are expensive because of import duties and a bonus tax over $55,000 (for extra fun)

many cars are comparatively cheap second hand because ?????? - a brand new M3 will go for $150k (though a new $120k 'pure' edition with zero options included is out now/soon), a loaded 335i/135i isn't much shy of $100k.

Nothing needs to be moved. As once I do some other random N54 person will just bring up the M3 and it will all start all over again.

So let's just move on.

Agreed. I really wish the people whose first thoughts about N54 performance involves being able to beat M3s would really just STFU. The M3 vs 335i crap is getting old.

Originally Posted by Sticky

If it really mattered we'd all be in Mustangs. People who have a BMW are already showing they prioritize more than just straightline performance.

Originally Posted by Sticky

It isn't 10-20k savings unless you are factoring in the price differential between the cars to begin with. The parts themselves once trying to get to higher power levels don't come a ton more cheaply for the N54 or anything.

Bingo. We're a bit beyond the whole 'performance per dollar' argument for various reasons. Though I'm sure with dwindling E9X prices that it will become the norm soon enough. I saw it happen to the SC300/400; and now seemingly every high school kid owns a ratted out one or has a friend that does.