The philosophies of men mingled with the philosophies of women.

What’s the Point of …

It occurred to me that the various programs of the church have different purposes for different people, and those purposes often go unquestioned. At least among lay members, there are unquestioned assumptions about why such and such a program exists, and if you ask any two people, they might confidently assert that their reason is the reason.

It’s a reductive exercise because, of course, most things don’t exist for only one purpose. Many things have multiple purposes. And yet exploring why we do what we do can be a valuable exercise. Some things are so embedded in our experience that we don’t think to question them at all. Why do we hold elections? Why do we prefer buying to renting? Why do we (as bipedal, air-breathers) swim?

So I’ve decided to launch a new series called “What’s the Point of…” and address various topics over time. In my business experience, we would often address projects or departments in this manner, discussing what that project was supposed to accomplish or why that department needed to exist. Often, the original purpose no longer existed or other competing priorities had changed the company’s needs.

This is a discussion healthy organizations have on a frequent basis, to ensure that our programs are relevant and optimized. It helps you avoid a solution in search of a problem (in which someone has a pet solution they love so much that they misapply it to problems or deliberately misunderstand or misrepresent problems to justify the existence of their favorite solution). It can also help identify new solutions that have become available since the original one was devised.

Here are a few topics I am working on. What’s the point of:

The Priesthood

Relief Society

Parenthood

Church attendance

Baptism

Missions

Temples

Genealogy

What I will not be doing is giving the following non-answers. Any appeal to authority is not an answer in my book. The [program / practice] exists because of [revelation / God / scriptures / prophets]. C’mon, folks, that’s just saying “the reasons are above my pay grade” or “I don’t know” or “I don’t want to say because if I quote a person higher than me, that carries extra weight and I win.” This is intended to be a rational discussion between people trying to understand why we do what we do as an organization, not individuals trying to out-righteous each other in a game of GA-quoting brinksmanship. If you want to do that, I’m sure someone out there is happy to host such a discussion. That person is not me.

For purposes of this series, pretend you are part of a council deciding how best to achieve the goals of the church, and as such, you are discussing the church’s practices and programs with an eye toward achieving those aims. You are a decision-maker (one of many) whose input is valued. Act accordingly.

What other topics or programs would you like to see addressed?

Can you think of a time when you had an unquestioned assumption about why a program existed that you discovered differed from someone else’s?

Discuss.

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Published by hawkgrrrl

Hawkgrrrl has been blogging since March 2008, publishing hundreds of opinion pieces. She is a wife and mother of three, a business executive, a returned missionary, and is active in her LDS ward. She likes oil painting, reading, theater, and international travel.
View all posts by hawkgrrrl

Garments is a good one
Also, I suspect that this type of discussion actually does happen in the leading councils of the church. The difference is that pres. Nelson is willing to slay sacred cows while hinckley and monson were not. Hence the changes with scouting and the three hour block. An example from a generation ago would me welfare farms

Those that don’t did not always contribute their DNA to succeeding generations.

“So I’ve decided to launch a new series called What’s the Point of…”

O the elegant temple equivalent, “What is wanted?” Really wanted, which might not be obvious.

Priesthood: I see it as two things; agency, similar to appointment; I appoint you as my agent to conduct some of my affairs; and a word that describes naturally arising social aggregations herds, packs, troops as for instance a boy scout troop. A bunch of persons that individually are “priests” if they form any kind of guild or society, that guild or society is a “hood” of priests, or priesthood.

Men benefit from structure and will naturally form structures (hierarchies). Women’s hierarchy is called Relief Society but women seem to form hierarchies somewhat differently.

Parenthood: There is no point per se; but those that are not parents have not contributed DNA or the result of having contributed DNA is so inept in society that such persons will probably not succeed to do so for another generation. Parenting beyond procreation develops offspring to become at least as skilled, knowledgeable as the parents, preferably superior in some ways.

Church attendance: Frequent reminders of everything in life is necessary to maintain proficiency. Airplane pilots must fly, doctors must maintain their practice, and god-seekers must revisit god-seeking periodically. The “waters of Mormon” reveal an important purpose of church separate from your private god-seeking; and that is to bear one another’s burdens. Nobody is going to know you have a burden if you sit at home, neither visiting nor being visited.

Baptism: It’s a token of obedience and commitment. In theory it could be almost any token, but this is the mode chosen to represent the death and resurrection of Jesus. Buried and risen again. Lutherans sprinkle some water on your head. Not quite as symbolic in my opinion.

Missions: Multiple purposes . The overt objective is illustrated by the parable of the wedding ceremony when the master of ceremonies sent out servants to find guests for the wedding. I am one of those guests.

Temples: The spirit of God is easily offended by impurity and sin. Places exist,sometimes natural places like mountaintops, where unholiness is kept to a minimum in hopes of inviting the presence of holy or at least holier-than-me spirits. It is also ceremonial in nature and helps maintain a distinctive atmosphere.

Genealogy: No obvious “point” comes to mind, and yet studying the lives of my ancestors helps me understand me. I’ve been to the old country (Norway) and would like to visit my other old countries. It creates extended family.

Troy Cline asks “What the hell is the point of regular ecclesiastical interviews with freaking 8 year old kids?!?!?!?!”

How are you going to know they are freaking at the age of 8 if you don’t interview them? 😉

They are interviewed at 8 for baptism, but I presume you mean on a regular schedule. That’s okay so long as I am there as the child’s counselor to put an immediate stop to the proceeding if it goes astray.

Testimony meetings. We’re getting word of a lot of leaders cracking down on perceived abuses (like talking more than 30 seconds); but are those actually abuses? Depends on what you think testimony meeting is really for.

Michael 2 – I’m not talking about the baptismal interview. Clearly, I’m talking about the subject of the KUTV article. Namely, regular ecclesiastical interviews of primary-aged children. I think my point was clear in my original post. I don’t see a purpose to regular interviews of 8, 9, 10, and 11 year old children. I especially don’t see why the church would want to go there, given that they are keenly aware of how the process of ecclesiastical interviews has been abused in the past. But I don’t want to hijack the main purpose of this thread any more than I already have so I’ll leave it there.

I’m definitely with Lily and Kevin Barney about the testimony meetings. In my ward, they are much more likely to be either a series of humblebrags or announcements about great suffering/challenges the speakers are undergoing.

Ditto to Testimony Meetings.
Also Ward Sunday School Presidencies
Early morning seminary
Baby Blessings (what exactly do they do other than provide an opportunity for families to gather?)
Garments
Ban on Coffee and Tea
Ward Conference
Stake Primary Presidencies
Ward Primary Presidencies (I’m in primary and under the revised schedule, all they do is conduct and take roll. A 1 person job, not 4)
Having ward members weekly clean the part of the building set aside for them (the paid cleaners do the rest)
Temple Prep Class (as currently taught)
Modesty against women’s shoulders

What is the purpose of having the RS under priesthood direction.? That makes it a men’s organization FOR women and not a women’s organization, so what it the purpose?

What is the purpose of temple? Several sub questions under temples. Why even have families “sealed” when love is what holds families together, and there is also the genetic link, so “sealing” just seems redundant. Especially when I get told that I won’t have to be with my abusive family of origin if I don’t want to. Seems it is really based on human choice any way, so why? What is the purpose of the washings and anointing? What is the purpose of the endowment? Does God needs “signs and tokens” to recognize his own children? What is the purpose of signs and tokens?

Garments: I think some day we are going to look back at garments and be amazed that we actually put these on day-to-day. We actually utilized Church undergarments in our daily life. I envision the day when we wear these to the temple, maybe on Sunday to church meetings, that’s it. We’ve seen the Church change other things that seemed so obvious and long overdue. I know it seems hard to envision but I bet (and hope) it happens.

I bring this up in the context of “why”? Why do we wear these every day? I guess you could argue that they remind us of who we are every day but I don’t find that to be the case personally. And I do not happen to believe that they protect us, Brother Marriot (60 Minutes interview) notwithstanding.

Anna – Good point. God does not need signs and tokens to recognize his own children. Masons need signs and tokens to recognize their own. Joseph Smith was a mason so he thought it would be a super-neato idea to make Masonic signs and tokens a thing in his new-fangled religion. I can see a future day when signs and tokens are no longer used in the temple. Let’s face it – they didn’t come as a revelation from God.

What’s the point of the “sonorous, slow, sing-song speaking cadence of EVERY speaker during General Conference? It’s maddening, hypnotic, sleep inducing and conveys a distinctly “1984” feel. Why can”t we simply talk like normal human beings?! Secondly, what’s the point of using the word “Even” before stating the name of the church or the name of Christ himself? Pretentious much?

Hawk: “This is intended to be a rational discussion between people trying to understand why we do what we do as an organization… For purposes of this series, pretend you are part of a council deciding how best to achieve the goals of the church, and as such, you are discussing the church’s practices and programs with an eye toward achieving those aims.”

It seems to me that one can’t seriously discuss how best to achieve the goals of the church without first deciding what those goals are. Some of the comments to date seem to me critical of the goals stated by the church as much as (or more than) discussing a church practice or program with an eye toward achieving those aims. As to practices and programs, I prefer to wait for a sample from Hawk as to what she has in mind for her contemplated series. Even then I suspect my comments on many current practices/programs might either be historical (without a great deal of historical expertise) or “I don’t know” or comments on how they relate practically to the church’s stated goals with respect to the limited number of people I know or have observed . In the meantime, those stated goals, and a goal I infer, are described below.

In April 1982 President Kimball recalled that he had “stated [in April 1981] that the mission of the Church is threefold:
First, to proclaim the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people;
Secondly, to perfect the Saints by preparing them to receive the ordinances of the gospel and by instruction and discipline to gain exaltation;
Thirdly, to redeem the dead by performing vicarious ordinances of the gospel for those who have lived on the earth. (See Ensign, May 1981, p. 5.)” He then added that “All three are part of one work—to assist our Father in Heaven and His Son, Jesus Christ, in their grand and glorious mission ‘to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.’”

It has been reported that in 2009 the Church formulation of its goals added a fourth: “to care for the poor and needy.” Some had understood that as being a part of “perfecting the Saints,” but apparently some also thought it needed added emphasis or that it needed to be articulated as a Church aim and not only a responsibility of individual Saints.

I would be inclined to add a fifth aim I infer from changes in Church financial policies and procedures and some actions of the Church or its controlled entities over the last ca. 6 decades. That fifth might be articulated “to establish and maintain financial security of the Church sufficient to allow it to continue to serve its other purposes for, and beyond, the foreseeable future.”

Could these goal statements be a reasonable basis for the discussion Hawk had in mind?

josh h writes “I envision the day when we wear these to the temple, maybe on Sunday to church meetings, that’s it.”

You can do that right now. I have no idea how many people wear them every day and neither do you.

Anna: The signs and tokens were given to recognize messengers of God, at a time when Public Key Infrastructure and bar codes did not exist.

So here you are in Orderville in the late 1800’s and some guy rides into town on a horse with a message from Brigham Young. Well, maybe it is and maybe it isn’t. He presents a sign or token and you do likewise and you’re validated; with the more secret signs and tokens for more important and less frequently used authentications. He could still be lying but at least he knows the signs and tokens.

A fair bit of all this resembles Freemasonry. There was a time when Masons were being hunted and executed so they implemented a number of strategies to identify each other without excessive revealing of their identity to the public. This has been true of Mormons and could become true again especially in other parts of the world.

When the Church started investing billions in income producing commercial real estate (i.e. office buildings, residential developments, and at least one shopping mall) I believe it strayed from its primary mission and should therefore be expected to tell tithe payers what their strategy is and also be expected to provide financial disclosure on these projects. Don’t bother trotting out that old explanation that funding for projects like these come from the Church’s taxable businesses because (1) it stands to reason that those businesses were started with tithes at some point, and (2) the dollars invested in these new projects are enormous and the viability of the existing business would likely be compromised if that much capital where draw out of them.

Michael2: I understand that I can “do that right now”….wear garments only to church / the temple. But the issue is that to be “worthy” of a recommend you have to wear them day and night. I think that will change to make things easier. You know, like all the other changes. And that’s because many of our behaviors are traditions are pure culture.

What is the point of the Quorum of the 12, Seventies and Area Authorities? Now, I do recognize than any large, profitable corporation has to have “Corporate Officers” i.e. Executive Vice Presidents, Vice Presidents, Operations Managers etc. My question relates more to the “spiritual” side of things. I grew up with the perception that somehow “these guys” were the representatives of God on Earth; and thereby the filter through which we approach the Father. I’m long past believing that we need these “middlemen” to impact my relationship with God. I now feel closer to Christ (having let go of this perception….) than I ever did listening to these guys “puff and blow”. Corporate Officers okay…..vicars of Christ – not so much. (The truth is They. Are. Just. Like. Everyone. Else.)

What’s the point of sex in a Mormon context? (Serious question: I’m interested to take the temperature of where we currently stand on various issues.)

Also: what’s the point of singing/sharing time in Primary? I keep hearing from outliers about how their kid(s) “greatly benefited from the repetitive teaching of doctrine set to simple melody” but I don’t personally know a single kid over the age of 7 in the past two wards I’ve served in who actually likes singing our songs.

josh h responds to me: “the issue is that to be worthy of a recommend you have to wear them day and night.”

I sense a conundrum or catch-22. Part of what makes the temple special are the requirements to enter. Remove the requirements and the temple ceases to be special.

One can as easily ask why priests of any church wear special garments or pointy hats. I have no answer and don’t really need one although now that i’ve mentioned it, what about that miter? Well I have just learned more than I intended. Seems to resemble the open mouth of a fish.

Michael 2 – I don’t think removing the Masonic symbols, signs, tokens, and rites from the temple would cease to make it special. If it is the Masonic element that makes the temple special, then the church has a bigger problem than I imagined.

JR: I tend to agree that any policy or practice has to be evaluated with the 3-fold mission of the church as a backdrop. From there, the question branches out: how effective is it at furthering the mission to which it pertains, how critical to it is it, are there other, better ways to achieve those ends? Many of the policies will either fit into multiple missions of the church, or in some cases, not really fit well into any of them.

Angela & JR: Great article and comments. My sincere compliments. From my life perspective – people and organizations generally aren’t very proactive in making major change in preparation for “whats coming”. Rather, major change routinely seems to come as a direct result of failure (or pending failure), a threat which can no longer be ignored, imminent threat of life – limb – or property and/or to “save face” in a circumstance of major pending public embarrassment; personally or professionally. I can only think of a few occassions where the changes made resulted in a major upswing of positive outcomes. More often than not….changes made under these conditions were really “just too little – too late”. Honestly, I think so much damage has been already been done within (and without) “the church” – I don’t see the organization ever returning to “their glory days”.

“JR: I tend to agree that any policy or practice has to be evaluated with the 3-fold mission of the church as a backdrop. From there, the question branches out: how effective is it at furthering the mission to which it pertains, how critical to it is it, are there other, better ways to achieve those ends? Many of the policies will either fit into multiple missions of the church, or in some cases, not really fit well into any of them.”

I think in implementing and making use of policies and procedures it is very helpful to look at them functionally. What function do they serve and how do they serve it?

I love testimony meeting. It is the only part of our worship that is unplanned, unscripted, and uncorrelated. Yes, sometimes it’s boring and pedestrian (like other aspects of church), sometimes it’s crazy and uncomfortable (and that’s fun too), but at times it is also spiritually spontaneous and revelatory.

Lefthandloafer, I expect you’re generally right about organizational changes being often too little too late. That problem may be most acute for organizations that tend to idolize their own traditions and past or current hierarchical leaders.
I have no reason to think the exercise Angela has proposed here would have any impact at all on change or lack thereof in the church generally, but there have been times when I’ve seen hints that such an exercise can affect positively how some policy or program is implemented (or not) in at least some locales.
I don’t know when the “glory days” of the church were, or what about the church or its environment in any such glory days would suggest to you that those were the glory days. But, yes, generally speaking one cannot go back to what was. Sometimes one can create something new or better out of what was.

1. What is the point of the BYUs (Provo, Idaho, Hawaii)? The church spends vast resources subsidizing these three institutions. Why?
2. What is the point of most stake callings (Stake YM/YW callings, Stake SS, etc.)

Why are worthiness interviews needed?
Why are confessions to a church authority needed on “certain” sins – certain meaning almost exclusively sexual sin? I asked someone I know who is a bishop what good he believed it did for someone to confess or submit to a disc council for sexual sin. The way he explained it was that they needed to have the seriousness of the sin impressed on them and that confession and/or a council was they only way to do that. Really!? So basically it serves a punitive function? Sinners need the additional shame and humiliation of confession to really repent? I don’t buy it. My feeling is that natural consequences (whatever they might be) should be sufficient punishment, and piling on with church punishment tends to drive people away.

At the risk of sounding overly cynical, what’s the point of God? If revelations and inspiration are so finicky as to frequently be found to be mistaken for our own thoughts, and if God can’t make messages from him consistently more distinct than the thoughts that arise in our own heads, what’s the point of having revelation at all?

I recognize this to be an unpopular opinion. Keep in mind, I really want to believe in God, I just find my personal experiential evidence to be less than convincing.

I realize the last suggestion for this was a while ago. I also see that “what is the point of priesthood?” is already on your list, so this may fit underneath that umbrella. My suggestion is “What is the point of priesthood ordination?” I won’t regurgitate my thoughts, as I just posted them in a comment over at The Exponent blog (https://www.the-exponent.com/a-seat-at-the-table/comment-page-1/#comment-1575882 ), but I will recommend the question to you for this series.