I had read a few comments about this on the "pinned" ICG thread, and I wanted to solicit the opinions of other seasoned cosplayers/judges on this matter.

In your opinion, do you believe that the level of competition in Masquerades at Science Fiction conventions (Dragon*Con, Balticon etc.) is "higher" or "more intense" that that at large-scale Anime Conventions (AX, Otakon)?

In the ICG thread, there were some who had the opinion that at Science Fiction conventions, the standards of judging better prepared individual cosplayers for competition at major costume conventions, whereas Anime Conventions emphasised skit performance over costume construction and presentation. Others expressed the opposite views that as Anime conventions increase in popularity and size, and young costumers gain more experience, the competition level at these major conventions has been "upped", and the standards held for winning costumes are on-par with long-running Sci-Fi cons.

What are your opinions on this matter? I would like to explore this further in its' own thread, since I believe it belongs here, and not in the ICG "sticky" thread.

I have been involved with Anime Boston for five years (including the upcoming 2008 convention) and have been going to anime cons for longer than that. In those years, I have seen cosplay take itself to a whole new level. Costumes that won awards in 2003 would not place if entered in 2008. I have NOT, however, experienced the Sci-Fi con circuit, so it would be beneficial to hear opinions from that side as well.

The ICG guidelines are just that: GUIDELINES. The categories to not have any "defined" criteria to the point of the number of awards necessary to qualify for each division. There is not even a defined age range for "youth" entries. A lot is left up to the Masquerade Manager. How do you see the criteria differing between the Science Fiction and Anime convention circuits in relation to the qualification criteria? What have your experiences with judges at both types of conventons been like?

Any opinions are welcome. I do not want this to turn into a flame war, so please, play nice...

__________________I REPRESENT THE CoP:"We are the people our parents warned us about." -- Jimmy Buffett

I'd like to adress a growing trend in anime conventions that I wish would end. Increasingly, anime cons are not permitting 'professionals' to compete. This includes people who do commissions, or people who have jobs/degrees in fashion. Why not make a professional category? Sci-Fi conventions have them. Anyone who's been to a Sci-fi con or Costume Con know that many people who compete are professionals, and they have their own division. These are the costumes everyone goes to see, and it's sad to me to see it being limited in cosplay masquerades. By not letting professionals compete, it's cutting out a LARGE percentage of, uh, costumes actually worth seeing on stage. Not to say, of course, that there aren't awesome costumes in competitions already. But why supress the possibility of even more?

Cosplay has grown popular over the past 10 years. People have began to shape their careers around it; this subculture is maturing to the level of sci-fi cons, and I think it's extremely limiting for the 'big kids' to be left out of the masquerades because they're 'too good'. I think it's detrimental to cosplay as an artform to start limiting the quality at masquerades.

I have to admit, I have not yet encountered this concern among the East-Coast con circuit, and it is very interesting to know that it is a growing trend (a trend that is worth noting for the planning of future Masquerade Events.) I think you hit on one of the main reasons why the "professional" competition is much better handled in Sci-Fi and Costume conventions: these conventions have, more than likely, been around for longer than most anime conventions. When you look at the Sci-Fi circuit, you have costumers who have been costuming since the late seventies. Most cosplayers at anime conventions were not even BORN in the late seventies. Therefore, these conventions (I'm assuming) have the fanbase that can support a separate "professional" division.

I believe that as the Anime-con circuit continues to expand, there may be a changing viewpoint on "professional" costumers entering said competitions. Heck, it took Anime Boston five years to reach a point where we had enough experienced 'novices' to support a Journeyman division (which I plan on implementing in '08 due to an overwhelming number of 'novice' entries in '07.) I have seen a lot of the 'professional' or 'experienced' cosplayers lose interest in competing-- preferring to act as judges or staff of said conventions. Perhaps, if this trend continues and the anime convention circuit adopts a 'professional' division, maybe some of these experienced cosplayers might come out of 'retirement' and once again show off their costuming skills on stage.

__________________I REPRESENT THE CoP:"We are the people our parents warned us about." -- Jimmy Buffett

I've never seen an anime con, or any con, disallow "professionals" from competing. o_O Where has this happened, Jia?

Professional qualifications put you in Master class. Which is a good place to keep them, so that those of us working our way up the ladder the hard way still have Journeyman in which to whet our skills. I understand, though, that smaller anime cons, and anime cons just starting out, may want to only have two divisions - Novice and Expert, perhaps. I have done that and plan to do it again at very small cons around here.

On the greater scale, of comparing the two genre cons...I think there is considerable merit to the point that anime cons have been putting the skit before the costume, and emphasizing skits. It's one of my major complaints about anime cons. But I don't think it's happening everywhere, and I do think that as time goes on, some of them are starting to get the clue that they can't run on skits alone. All cons handle that problem their own way - some split the skits off into a separate contest, some just alter the rule structure or put entry limits to try and encourage walk-ons or simply handle the influx of people.

I think a lot of it does have to do with the age of sci-fi cons. A good number of them have been around longer than ten years, whereas there are only a handful of anime cons who can claim that kind of longevity. The longer the con has been around the circuit, feeding off other cons in the same genre, the more likely it is that they've honed their masquerade rules and methods, and have kept directors with good track records for a long time. For some bizarre reason, new anime cons have this need to reinvent the wheel when there are tried and true methods already out there. There is no one way to run a masquerade, or a con, but there are all kinds of proven ways that anime cons can just copy or tap into. They ought to get advice or take pointers from the sci-fi cons with the good masquerades, but they don't. I blame it partly on ego, partly on ignorance. I'm sure a good number of people being asked to run masquerades at new anime cons don't know anything about masquerades, other than "every con has them." It's a tradition, and rightly so. But rather than sit at the knee of an established director and get some tips, they go and try to run it the way they think it ought to be run. Thus, the de-emphasis on costume craftsmanship and the complete lack of understanding of the mere existence of the ICG.

I don't think all sci-fi cons have their thing together, though. DragonCon notoriously does not. Smaller sci-fi cons that grew out of gaming or literature tend not to have as strictly-run masquerades, if they have them at all. Media and fandom cons, though, they know what's what, precisely because that's where a good number of hall costumes come from. Media recreations are the rage, have been since I started in 1999 and continue to be. Anime and video game cosplay is just an offshoot of that. Considering how much hall cosplay there is at anime cons, they ought to be the ones really streamlining the art of the masquerade, to showcase the best of the best. You can see a million half-assed Narutos in the hallway, but the stage is where they ought to be promoting the nine-tailed fox Naruto in the full fursuit.

There are a couple of things that can be done to increase the desire for more competent craftsmanship (and performance) judging at anime cons. A number of them are already starting down the road, but some need help. First of all, this forum is a good start. Word of mouth. The knowledgeable cosplayers who've been around the block should just start mentoring and giving advice constructively. Second, try to get veterans to judge at anime cons, because they can offer directors tips if the director is not already on the ball. Third, run more cosplay panels at cons to get people interested in serious costuming! Changing directors, changing judges, and changing rules is just one part of the picture. The competitors themselves - the congoing public - have to want to make better costumes, and have to have a reason to be encouraged to do so. The attitude of the cosplayer has to change as much as the people running and judging the masquerade.

That's more than enough for now.

__________________Founder and President, Madison Area Costuming Society, a chapter of the International Costumer's Guild

The thing to keep in mind here is that Anime Conventions as a whole are a hell of a lot YOUNGER than Sci-fi/Fantasy cons.

Let's put it this way, in the simplest terms possible:

Sci-fi/fantasy cons have longer established traditions and less cons throughout the nation. Therefore it will appear to both people within and without that circuit to see their competition as stronger merely because there are more established costumers and less cons for them all to go to. Also, convention directors tend to have a long established love and appreciation for costumes from their fandoms, and like to attract talented costumers to their conventions.

Anime Conventions are still relatively new, but have spread like a disease across the country. The talent is still young and spread thin, so it would appear the competition is less. That and it's apparent to me that most Anime convention directors have little knowledge or respect for costuming, so don't care enough to emphasize it in their programming

This is the best way to explain the differences. As Anime cons grow and most fledgling cons die off, you will start to see them evolve more into the state Sci-fi/Fantasy cons are at now.

"Masquerade Costume Rules
1. This event is for amateur costumers. Professional or compensated seamstresses, tailors, costumers, clothiers, performers, etc. may not participate in competition."

And yes, Sarcasm-hime is right. I suppose what I meant was that professionals were allowed to compete in master categories, or at least have stage time. Sorry to generalize.

Danzikumaru: I understand what you mean. Of course, anime conventions are just babies compared to the older sci-fi conventions. My point was that anime conventions are growing, and I find it discouraging to serious cosplayers to create a ceiling for competition. I don't expect a full-blown masters category at every convention down to small cons with 500 attendees. That would be pointless. But for larger conventions, especially ones like expo, that are leaders in the con community to begin putting up walls like this; well, I find it disheartening for the future of anime cons. Hopefully it will change.

"Masquerade Costume Rules
1. This event is for amateur costumers. Professional or compensated seamstresses, tailors, costumers, clothiers, performers, etc. may not participate in competition."

And yes, Sarcasm-hime is right. I suppose what I meant was that professionals were allowed to compete in master categories, or at least have stage time. Sorry to generalize.

Danzikumaru: I understand what you mean. Of course, anime conventions are just babies compared to the older sci-fi conventions. My point was that anime conventions are growing, and I find it discouraging to serious cosplayers to create a ceiling for competition. I don't expect a full-blown masters category at every convention down to small cons with 500 attendees. That would be pointless. But for larger conventions, especially ones like expo, that are leaders in the con community to begin putting up walls like this; well, I find it disheartening for the future of anime cons. Hopefully it will change.

It may change at some point. But right now it seems as if there is a level of bias in AX's cosplay department against professional costumers. There definition of professional is extremely stupid at that, given that they define "professional" as having made any money off of cosplay, regardless of the means. So, even if you DON'T have access to professional equipment and have only done a handfull of commisions for a few friends and did not do commisions as your livelyhood, you are barred from their competition. It's fecking ridiculous.

Wow, I'm glad you guys brought these issues up. Now there is much less reason for me to try and save up to get to AX one day. I actually have yet to compete in a cosplay contest, but I really want to try to start getting into them. So I would be devastated if I got turned away from a contest like that just because of my degree and having made a few costumes for friends.

OMG that's just wrong. AX, of all cons, to slam that kind of wall down? They need to be slapped upside the head.

WorldCon and CostumeCon, the international level costuming conventions for crying out loud, allow professionals in any costume-related field. They're in Master class, yes, but they're still allowed to strut their stuff. That's the standard across the board at most cons I know, this is the first I've heard of such a restriction. And it's a ridiculous one. After all, I'm a paid seamstress - I work at a shop sewing dye-sublimated banners, flags, table skirts, etc. (commissions are on the side, not my main income) So does that mean, because I spend my days getting paid hourly to sew straight lines on banners, that I'm "pro" enough to be disqualified at AX? That's nuts on so many levels. Be assured, Jia, that it doesn't happen often or everywhere.

Perhaps that's a symptom of what Danzikumaru and I mentioned - the way anime cons don't understand the hobby of costuming. Not just its history, but its ongoing and vital growth in all kinds of genres. Anime cons have this conception that the hall cosplay they see at every other anime con is "it," that's the most you can expect out of people. But if you throw anime costumes into the same con with mainstream sci-fi, fantasy, and media costumes (think DragonCon, Archon, ComicCon) and the quality standard sticks out like a sore thumb. I'll take a Batman in a foam latex bodysuit over a Naruto group made half out of sweatpants and shirts cut and taped in the right places. And that's just in the halls! I excuse the kids because of their youth sometimes, but the internet being as pervasive as it is, it isn't difficult to look at pictures from other cons and go "wow. Look at that. Look at what that guy did. I want to be able to do that." Why CAN'T anime costumes look as good as sci-fi costumes? Why CAN'T we have Evangelion plugsuits that look as good as superhero costumes, or Trinity Blood props as lovely as some of the X-men ones I've seen, or packs of State Alchemists or Bleach shiningami looking as refined and crisp as an army of stormtroopers or colonial Marines?

It's a rhetorical question, but there is an answer. People just have to know that such a thing is possible, given they put the effort into it. If half the cosplayers I run into at anime cons put in the same amount of effort as my old stormtrooper buddies, cosplay would be revolutionized. And then they'd be the ones knocking on the masquerade directors' doors, demanding the same kind of quality competition (rules, divisions, judging, stage directing) as those sci-fi cons get. I say it will always go back to the prevailing attitude of the audience. As long as the kids still think it's great fun to throw a pack of randomized Final Fantasy and Naruto characters on stage in piecemeal costumes and goof off, anime cons will continue in their same rut, and you won't get any kind of serious competition going.

__________________Founder and President, Madison Area Costuming Society, a chapter of the International Costumer's Guild

It's a rhetorical question, but there is an answer. People just have to know that such a thing is possible, given they put the effort into it. If half the cosplayers I run into at anime cons put in the same amount of effort as my old stormtrooper buddies, cosplay would be revolutionized. And then they'd be the ones knocking on the masquerade directors' doors, demanding the same kind of quality competition (rules, divisions, judging, stage directing) as those sci-fi cons get. I say it will always go back to the prevailing attitude of the audience. As long as the kids still think it's great fun to throw a pack of randomized Final Fantasy and Naruto characters on stage in piecemeal costumes and goof off, anime cons will continue in their same rut, and you won't get any kind of serious competition going.

It's also those same kids that do poorly at competitions, then bitch and complain afterwards about solid, skilled cosplayers winning awards time and again. I've seen/heard/been a target of so much sour grapes over the years because the youth & novice in competition would rather try to get experienced cosplayers barred from competition than step up a notch and improve their own skills. I stopped competing for two years because the that crap. I don't give a damn anymore, but it's not just the "professionals" that get targeted at competitions...
And I've been to other conventions of the scifi, fantasy, horror, etc. variety and the costumes blow my mind! Yes, anime cosplay is definitely bringing out some really skilled costumers nowadays, but five years ago? *Snorts* I'd find it amazingly hilarious if a Master costumer from the scifi/fantasy or even horror circuit would compete at an anime convention. It would give a necessary SMACK to the head to a lot of cosplayers that have no clue how amazing costumes can be when you put serious effort into all aspects of a costume and presentation.
Tikki

Some of this stuff has been on my mind since I started doing anime costumes, adding them into my sci-fi repertoire. I started out costuming with Star Wars, and am technically still a Rebel Legion member - and part of the Windmill community of Moulin Rouge costumers. I've been to DragonCon. I've run the circuit. I've been involved with the prop-making community that long, too. Very few of these people are professionals, some of them take prop commissions but not custom work. And few of them compete! Most of them are into the instant gratification of camera circles in the lobby and being stopped in the halls, or showing their mad skills to the actors whose costumes they've replicated. But those that do compete know the ropes, and are usually pretty good about teaching the newbies how this whole masquerade thing works. In my experience, there hasn't been any of the egotism and high school drama of anime cons. Well, not much of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tikki

Yes, anime cosplay is definitely bringing out some really skilled costumers nowadays, but five years ago? *Snorts* I'd find it amazingly hilarious if a Master costumer from the scifi/fantasy or even horror circuit would compete at an anime convention. It would give a necessary SMACK to the head to a lot of cosplayers that have no clue how amazing costumes can be when you put serious effort into all aspects of a costume and presentation.

They're starting to, thankfully. Actually, I think grandis earned much of her Master qualification outside of anime cons, but don't quote me on that - you'd have to ask her. What's really impressive is the CostumeCon people. They've been watching the explosion of cosplay with the air of kids at a pet store window looking at the puppies. They see any costume as worthy of attention, regardless of the source, and even though a lot of them are in an older age demographic and don't know much about anime (they'll say so honestly), they WANT to learn because they see the potential for so many awesome designs they can replicate and display. At the same time, they're practically begging cosplayers to go to CostumeCon, and bring their costumes, so they can see them as well as give those cosplayers the opportunity to learn hands-on stuff about improving their skills. Going to CC25 this year is probably the best thing I've ever done for my costuming hobby. I learned so much, and even though people didn't know who we were dressed as, they were simply impressed by the designs and our craftsmanship. We broke out our Yu-Gi-Oh Egypt costumes just to wear to the sci-fi masquerade and were told to our faces at least twice "omg please tell me you competed those somewhere!" (we did - ACen 06 - but it was a disaster) I plan to compete at CostumeCon 2010 in, get this, a Japanese RPG video game costume! An obscure version of one of the Suikoden characters. It doesn't matter that they won't know the source, what matters is that it's an impressive costume and if I do it well, that's what they'll look for.

I really don't want to be ageist, but I do blame a lot of it on the young age of the vast majority of anime cosplayers. They get into anime cons via their clubs and friends at school, discover cosplay as "running around in the hall dressed as my favorite character," and don't really think about what goes into making a costume. It's the Halloween costume mentality. But if the masquerade directors at anime cons WANT higher standards, better cosplay, and better contests, they have to start holding people to some kind of standard and not listen when they start to whine. It is unfortunate, Tikki, that you've seen people try to ban experienced cosplayers just because they can't be bothered to try harder. I did hear a rumor (and I will flag it as a RUMOR for now) that ACen chose not to give strippervash and his group an award this year solely because "they win too many awards." Not because they weren't as good as other costumes or performances. It isn't Zach's fault that he's talented at making and wearing costumes plus writing performances, no one should be penalized for consistently standing head-and-shoulders above the masses. Granted, he may be getting to the point where he's one of those Masters who ought to politely enter out of competition to give someone else a chance but that's another barrel of monkeys. I honestly don't understand why people think that the only way to get fair competition is to lower the standards to the lowest common denominator. That's not now competition works, and it's not how life works.

I think the directors at anime cons who want better competitions have to be aware of this. And not buckle to pressure, not let anyone tell them they're too strict. Eventually, people will catch on, and in turn they'll start demanding better competitions at the *other* cons who currently have bad ones. I just hope "eventually" doesn't take another decade.

__________________Founder and President, Madison Area Costuming Society, a chapter of the International Costumer's Guild

My boyfriend and I went to CC18, waaay back, with manga costumes from Blade of the Immortal. I knew nothing about the construction of an obi, a proper kimono or anything. I just modified patterns to make our costumes LOOK like the images as much as possible. Judging was interesting because we got a lot of constructive advice on how to do stuff better (*ahem* and properly) but never felt put down. And they really liked the wooden sandals that Rob made from scratch. We ended up with two awards that night, one specifically for the geta! We met so many nice people, and got a lot of attention for our anime and manga costumes since we really stood out. It was awesome and I'd recommend going to CostumeCon any time its possible....

Quote:

Originally Posted by CapsuleCorp

I really don't want to be ageist, but I do blame a lot of it on the young age of the vast majority of anime cosplayers. It is unfortunate, Tikki, that you've seen people try to ban experienced cosplayers just because they can't be bothered to try harder. I did hear a rumor (and I will flag it as a RUMOR for now) that ACen chose not to give strippervash and his group an award this year solely because "they win too many awards." [snip] no one should be penalized for consistently standing head-and-shoulders above the masses.[snip] I honestly don't understand why people think that the only way to get fair competition is to lower the standards to the lowest common denominator. That's not now competition works, and it's not how life works.

Ah, ACen also did the same to a friend of mine who'd won Best in Show a few years in a row. He took a break from competitions there a few years but when he tried to compete again, they (meaning staff) told him it was all full. Then they let quite a few cosplayers register for the masquerade after he and his brother left to enjoy the convention. Yeah... that's fair... *snorts* As for the whiners, I had a regular chat with Sue Shambaugh when she ran the Katsucon masquerade up until the last few years. I'd make a point to discuss a project with her to make sure we didn't stress her and Tom out with skit surprises and what not. And every year, she'd laugh and tell me about email petitions she'd get to ban myself and Rob, and a few other old fogies I know. It's stupid, petty and just makes me want to compete even more when someone makes pot shots like that. I'm mulish like that.
Thankfully, I've never dealt with any of that crap running AMA's cosplay events, or even staffing at Neko. The cosplay drama I usually deal with from staffing stems from gossipers griping at each other, people that get caught cheating (like trying to wear a commissioned costume to the Hall Contest) and people that don't read the rules all the way through and wonder why they got dq-ed for missing rehearsal or line-up at the Masquerade...
Honestly, I'd love for our con to have a higher caliber of costuming, but it's a small convention in a region with lots of scifi/fantasy/horror events along with anime cons. Also a lot of people that are GOOD cosplayers tend to focus their hard work on other events like Otakon, only a month away from AMA this year. I've added in the allowance of all genres to the Hall Contest this year, just to try something new. It'd be nice to see a lot of good non-anime costumes at AMA, if only to inspire young cosplayers to improve their skills and try something new.

The beginning of my costuming experience was in the Renaissance fair circuit here in Texas. Something to note about most period and fantasy costuming is that we are so well established there are a WHOLE LINE of costume patterns JUST for us. And I mean ACCURATE stuff, straight down to period correct under-oos. So, to say it's actually EASIER to start breaking out quality looking costumes in that spectrum is in fact easier than other genres is, in my opinion, quite true. There is simply more support and education out there.

This is where we, the anime con cosplay directors, come in. It's up to US to start bringing the level of awareness and quality up. Soon, someday, there will be a time where anime/manga related costume patterns will be easily available in the US and young costumers will start out with more resources for that than they do now. In spite of havine an over saturation of anime conventions, there simply is not as large of a resource base for that form of cosplay than there is for other mediums.