In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by SLS on April 20, 2009, at 7:19:11

> > >Unfortunately, Major Depressive Disorder and >Bipolar Disorder ARE progressive diseases in >that symptoms worsen over time. > > > > That is simply not true as a general statement.> > It took me 5 seconds on Medline to come up with this. There are quite a few more. Why do you even bother anymore?>

I'm sorry, but it's not clear how this abstract is supposed to refute Linkadge's statement.

> - Scott> > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17944926?ordinalpos=9&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum> > > 1: Int J Clin Pract. 2007 Dec;61(12):2030-40. Epub 2007 Oct 17.Click here to read Click here to read Links> Neurobiology of depression: an integrated view of key findings.> Maletic V, Robinson M, Oakes T, Iyengar S, Ball SG, Russell J.> > School of Medicine, University of South Carolina, Greer, SC 29650, USA. vmaletic@bellsouth.net> > AIMS: The objectives of the present review were to summarise the key findings from the clinical literature regarding the neurobiology of major depressive disorder (MDD) and their implications for maximising treatment outcomes. Several neuroanatomical structures in the prefrontal and limbic areas of the brain are involved in affective regulation. In patients with MDD, alterations in the dynamic patterns of activity among these structures have profound implications for the pathogenesis of this illness. DISCUSSION: The present work reviews the evidence for the progressive nature of MDD along with associated changes in neuroanatomical structure and function, especially for the hippocampus. The role of glucocorticoids, inflammatory cytokines and brain-derived growth factors are discussed as mediators of these pathological alterations. From this integrated model, the role of antidepressant therapy in restoring normative processes is examined along with additional treatment guidelines. CONCLUSION: Major depressive disorder is an illness with significant neurobiological consequences involving structural, functional and molecular alterations in several areas of the brain. Antidepressant pharmacotherapy is associated with restoration of the underlying physiology. Clinicians are advised to intervene with MDD using an early, comprehensive treatment approach that has remission as the goal.> > PMID: 17944926 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]> >

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by sowhysosad on April 23, 2009, at 20:54:44

49er - <<I am not sure how you can make the statement about drugs causing brain damage not holding up since 2 to 10% of all adverse side effects are ever reported to the FDA.>>> so why so said <<Probably a stupid question, but how do they quantify side effects that AREN'T reported to the FDA?>>

Actually, it is an excellent question with no good answer. I found this thread on pharmalot, http://tinyurl.com/22elxo which discusses the issue. I think the drug rep, Horus Cat, has the best answer about adverse side effects as it is like pornography, as you know it when you see it.

<<Are there any hard-and-fast statistics relating to "poop-out"? I've taken SSRI's for years at a time and have never experienced anything approaching it.>>

As an FYI, I was sure when I was on psych meds that I had never experienced poopout. It was only when I started tapering off of them that I realized that actually, I was starting to experience it. Many people I have encountered have reported similar experiences.

In browsing sites, the experts say 20%. But there isn't a direct link to a study so I won't post the site.

Since these are the same folks who minimize other stuff, I tend to believe it is much higher. But I don't have any proof either.> 49er <<As far as just dying a few years young, I guess you haven't seen the statistics that patients on psych meds are dying 25 years too early.>>> so why so sad<< But aren't their a million and one different life-threatening conditions that are associated with depression and anxiety? Heart disease, diabetes, stroke etc.>>

In the latest study on women and heart disease, there was a direct link to the antidepressants they were taking. Of course, that was minimized.

Someone I know who was always very healthy prior to being placed on antipsychotics has developed diabetes, high cholesterol and high blood pressure.

And of course, there was the big lawsuits against the companies of the APS for causing health risks. Sorry, due to insomnia, I am being lazy and not looking it up. But do a google search and you'll see what I am talking about.

I know someone who died from a stroke but this person definitely was not depressed.

Logically, one or two conditions can't be responsible for a million things. Even AIDS and cancer don't do that by themselves.

I think pharma would like for people to believe what you wrote but until I see accessible full text studies by researchers who don't have pharma conflicts, I will have a hard time agreeing.

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story... » sowhysosad, posted by 49er on April 25, 2009, at 14:29:38

> In the latest study on women and heart disease, there was a direct link to the antidepressants they were taking. Of course, that was minimized.> > Someone I know who was always very healthy prior to being placed on antipsychotics has developed diabetes, high cholesterol and high blood pressure.>

Yeah, AP's are another kettle of fish entirely, and I gather there's strong evidence of a link to diabetes and raised cholesterol.

As for AD's though, I don't doubt "Big Pharma" has tried to play down links to other life threatening conditions as you say. But I'd imagine it's on of those areas where it's pretty hard to prove cause and effect, like the "cannabis causes schiophrenia" debate.

In reply to Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by newquestions on April 16, 2009, at 9:10:07

Hi,

I just want to give my story as in a way the opposite happened to me although our stories start off very similiar.

I was 17 when I first started experiencing symptoms of depression and anxiety but from 17 up to 24 I thought I had some mysterious physical condition and was not treated.

Then when I hit 24 I started to get worst and after numerous visits to the doctors, the final time in tears, the doctor prescribed a tricyclic prothiaden.

The drug was miraculous I had such a wonderful response within a short time and felt as though I'd been given a new lease of life. I continued to take prothiaden until about the age of 27 when it seemed to start wearing off. I came off prothiaden and all drugs for a while and although I felt a bit depressed I was in no way as bad as I had been prior to starting prothiaden.

Then when I was put on Seroxat (paxil) again this worked brilliantly. I stayed on Seroxat until around the age of 31/32, at this point I had been reading a lot of scaremongering about SSRI drugs in general and as I was feeling ok, had forgotten what depression was like I decided to give it a go off medication. After a few hairy weeks coming off the seroxat I was back to normal and I spent about 4 years depression/anxiety free.

Then when I hit 35 the depression/anxiety came back with a vengence, this time I was suicidal and it took two years for me to find a drug and dose that worked. Two years later that drug stopped working.

I have to say that I don't know where I went wrong. I do know that I don't regret for a moment ever taking antidepressants as without them my life would not have been worth living. I've had life experiences that I would never have had if I had not taken antidepressants. I think even if I had of had therapy instead of medication then the therapy would not have worked and I would still have been convinced I had a physical illness.

All I can say now, is that I tried doing the right thing and coming off medication completely and still ended up suicidally depressed 3 years later so there doesn't seem to be any set rules when it comes to this horrible, horrible condition.

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by meltingpot on April 27, 2009, at 14:34:10

> Then when I hit 24 I started to get worst and after numerous visits to the doctors, the final time in tears, the doctor prescribed a tricyclic prothiaden.> > The drug was miraculous I had such a wonderful response within a short time and felt as though I'd been given a new lease of life. I continued to take prothiaden until about the age of 27 when it seemed to start wearing off. I came off prothiaden and all drugs for a while and although I felt a bit depressed I was in no way as bad as I had been prior to starting prothiaden.> > Then when I was put on Seroxat (paxil) again this worked brilliantly. I stayed on Seroxat until around the age of 31/32, at this point I had been reading a lot of scaremongering about SSRI drugs in general and as I was feeling ok, had forgotten what depression was like I decided to give it a go off medication. After a few hairy weeks coming off the seroxat I was back to normal and I spent about 4 years depression/anxiety free.> > Then when I hit 35 the depression/anxiety came back with a vengence, this time I was suicidal and it took two years for me to find a drug and dose that worked. Two years later that drug stopped working.

That's really interesting as your pattern of incidences of depression almost mirror mine: ages 24, 30 and 35 (albeit with one in the middle at around 27).

> All I can say now, is that I tried doing the right thing and coming off medication completely and still ended up suicidally depressed 3 years later so there doesn't seem to be any set rules when it comes to this horrible, horrible condition.

Why do you think being off meds is "doing the right thing"? That kinda proves my theory that the anti-med hysteria is causing some people to suffer unnecessarily.

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by sowhysosad on April 27, 2009, at 15:37:31

Hi,

What I'm saying is that there doesn't seem to be any right or wrong in all of this, no "If you do such and such then you will be ok".

No Questions initial point was that he wished he'd never taken SSRIs because he feels that the long term use has damaged him. However, I was pointing out that I actually came off them for exactly that reason (concern about damage), thinking if I came off them when I was still well I'd be ok but I actually ended up worse off in the long run.

Who knows if I had never come off a relatively low dose of Seroxat in the first place maybe I would not have slid into a suicidal depression. Would I have protected myself if I had of stayed on them.

I was just arguing in defense of taking antidepressants really because No questions argument seems to indicate that they are bad for you when isn't depression itself bad for you.

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by meltingpot on April 28, 2009, at 11:11:03

Gotcha Denise.

The anti-med propaganda is encouraging people to quit their meds too early and causing rebound depression, or even discouraging them from trying meds in the first place and condemning them to a lifetime of suffering. You're living proof of that.

Sure, I agree there needs to be balanced information out there to counteract the volume of drug-company-funded stuff. But, as I said elsewhere in this thread, the negative experiences of a tiny minority of unfortunates (or even out-and-out web scaremongering from some quarters) can be more powerful than reams of rational scientific information.

"Seroxat"? Are you in the UK? Or Canada maybe?

Seroxat (Paxil) is a good example actually. If you believe everything you read on the web you'd think withdrawing from it would inevitably leave you a gibbering wreck with long-term neurological problems. And yet I found it a useful AD and incredibly easy to discontinue, with no issues whatsoever.

> Hi,> > What I'm saying is that there doesn't seem to be any right or wrong in all of this, no "If you do such and such then you will be ok". > > No Questions initial point was that he wished he'd never taken SSRIs because he feels that the long term use has damaged him. However, I was pointing out that I actually came off them for exactly that reason (concern about damage), thinking if I came off them when I was still well I'd be ok but I actually ended up worse off in the long run. > > Who knows if I had never come off a relatively low dose of Seroxat in the first place maybe I would not have slid into a suicidal depression. Would I have protected myself if I had of stayed on them. > > I was just arguing in defense of taking antidepressants really because No questions argument seems to indicate that they are bad for you when isn't depression itself bad for you.> > > Denise> > > Denise

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by sowhysosad on April 28, 2009, at 14:18:12

Hi Sowhysodad,

<<The anti-med propaganda is encouraging people to quit their meds too early and causing rebound depression, or even discouraging them from trying meds in the first place and condemning them to a lifetime of suffering. You're living proof of that.>>

That isn't accurate at all.

Actually, places like Paxil Progress greatly encourage a very slow taper which prevents rebound depression. It is the psychiatrists in general (not all) who taper patients way too quickly and cause the rebound symptoms you refer to.

I wish to god, I had listened to these anti med sites that you seem to have an intense dislike for. It might have prevented my hearing loss which isn't very good for depression on top of having a learning disability.

Also, I would appreciate you not using the anti meds propaganda terminology. I could say the same thing about your position but out of respect, I don't. We can disagree reasonably without the subtle name calling.> <<Sure, I agree there needs to be balanced information out there to counteract the volume of drug-company-funded stuff. But, as I said elsewhere in this thread, the negative experiences of a tiny minority of unfortunates (or even out-and-out web scaremongering from some quarters) can be more powerful than reams of rational scientific information.>>

Please provide a link to an accessible full text study that supports your position in which the authors are not affiliated with drugs companies. And whether you can or can't, again, I would appreciate an end to the inflammatory language of scaremongering.

By the way, do a google search that shows that ADs increase the diabetes risk by 84% and show me how that is scaremongering. It was on the medscape site and not on a scientology one.> <<Seroxat (Paxil) is a good example actually. If you believe everything you read on the web you'd think withdrawing from it would inevitably leave you a gibbering wreck with long-term neurological problems. And yet I found it a useful AD and incredibly easy to discontinue, with no issues whatsoever.>>

Aren't you doing the same thing as you accuse the "minority" of doing by claiming your single experience is the legitimate result?

Anyway, I am glad you haven't been harmed by meds. But many people have and frankly, I am tired of their experiences being minimized.

As Linkage said, both sides deserve to tell their stories and people are intelligent to make up their own minds as to the truth.

49er> > > Hi,> > > > What I'm saying is that there doesn't seem to be any right or wrong in all of this, no "If you do such and such then you will be ok". > > > > No Questions initial point was that he wished he'd never taken SSRIs because he feels that the long term use has damaged him. However, I was pointing out that I actually came off them for exactly that reason (concern about damage), thinking if I came off them when I was still well I'd be ok but I actually ended up worse off in the long run. > > > > Who knows if I had never come off a relatively low dose of Seroxat in the first place maybe I would not have slid into a suicidal depression. Would I have protected myself if I had of stayed on them. > > > > I was just arguing in defense of taking antidepressants really because No questions argument seems to indicate that they are bad for you when isn't depression itself bad for you.> > > > > > Denise> > > > > > Denise > >

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story... » sowhysosad, posted by 49er on April 29, 2009, at 17:02:02

> Actually, places like Paxil Progress greatly encourage a very slow taper which prevents rebound depression. It is the psychiatrists in general (not all) who taper patients way too quickly and cause the rebound symptoms you refer to.

That's a good point, and it's a very valuable service those sites are providing. Let's hope the full message is getting through, rather than the superficial "antidepressants are bad" one that many people will take from casual reading.

> Also, I would appreciate you not using the anti meds propaganda terminology. I could say the same thing about your position but out of respect, I don't. We can disagree reasonably without the subtle name calling.

Definition of propaganda = "The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause". I think that's a reasonable description.

> Please provide a link to an accessible full text study that supports your position in which the authors are not affiliated with drugs companies.

Clearly it's my interpretation, not a scientifically verified fact. And I'd be the last person to claim that drug-company research was unbiased.

> And whether you can or can't, again, I would appreciate an end to the inflammatory language of scaremongering.

I'll use whatever language I like, thanks. As you say later, people are intelligent enough to make up their own minds. A proportion of anti-meds content on the internet is undoubtedly scaremongering, even if there are good intentions behind it.

> By the way, do a google search that shows that ADs increase the diabetes risk by 84% and show me how that is scaremongering. It was on the medscape site and not on a scientology one.

Quoting statistics like that out-of-context is meaningless. 74% of people know that.

High doses and long-term use are the main factors. For the average person who'll take a standard dose of an SSRI for six months or less it has no implications whatsoever.

The report's authors admit "weight gain might explain much of the relation between antidepressant use and diabetes". They also say "patients in this study treated with antidepressants for more than 24 months might represent a special subgroup, with an increased risk for diabetes because of their active depressive disorder", NOT because of their AD use.

Not quite so scary when you objectively interpret the research rather than throwing meaningless statistics around, is it?

> Aren't you doing the same thing as you accuse the "minority" of doing by claiming your single experience is the legitimate result?

So would my individual experience be more valid if I claimed SSRI's caused my frontal lobes to evacuate themselves through my nostrils or something?

> Anyway, I am glad you haven't been harmed by meds. But many people have and frankly, I am tired of their experiences being minimized.

I have have suffered - and am still suffering - long-term adverse effects from SSRI's. But they've also had a remarkably positive effect on my life on many occasions.

I choose not to bang on endlessly about it because I don't want anyone to be discouraged from finding help based on my isolated and rare experience. It tips the balance unfairly towards the anti-meds argument.

Conversely, many people with an anti-meds agenda who post online explicitly discourage others from trying particular meds. They have a clear agenda, even if their intentions are noble.

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story... » NewQuestions, posted by bleauberry on April 17, 2009, at 5:40:19

I was on high-dose SSRIs for many years (110mg Prozac or the equivalent). I believe that were I not on SSRIs, I'd not have made it through university as I did.

However, now I'm now *extremely* sensitive to changes in serotonin. Sunshine causes depression. So do carbs (though they also cause insulin spikes, too--I've developed pretty strong reactive hypoglycemia). I get depressed throughout the day as serotonin levels rise naturally from basal levels.

Some of this can be ameliorated with a dopamine agonist like amantadine or Requip. But it's hard to know how much of those I need, and if I take a little too much I get depressed.

I'd still do it over again. This is bad, but not as bad as I was before I started on Prozac. I wish that I could get past this current situation, though.

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by sowhysosad on April 29, 2009, at 18:11:22

Sowhysosad,

Regarding the diabetes issue, many people are on psych meds long term. I don't remember any poster on these boards being on them short term. So I think I deserve a little more credit than you're giving me.

Again, 2 to 10% of all adverse effects are reported to the FDA. Even if we don't agree on what is an AE, that is still a low number.

And again, if people's experiences are being blown off which even pro meds folks agree on, how can you call anyone's experience isolated? That comes across as extremely insensitive even if that wasn't your intention.

And someone's so called isolated experience can be the key to information we don't know about. For example, when I started researching ototoxic medications after finding out that my hearing loss was caused by Remeron, there was very little information on the issue. Now, there is a whole lot more although it isn't as fast as I would like. But that seems to always be the case.

As far as agendas, everyone who posts on this board has one so please, it isn't limited to the anti-meds crowd. There isn't a human being on this earth who is completely objective and to claim otherwise is simply wrong.

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story... » sowhysosad, posted by 49er on May 3, 2009, at 11:36:41

> Regarding the diabetes issue, many people are on psych meds long term. I don't remember any poster on these boards being on them short term. So I think I deserve a little more credit than you're giving me.

The nature of the beast is that most people who post here have particularly stubborn or long-term depression. That's why they're seeking or sharing fairly specialised information. We're by no means typical of the majority who'll suffer depression once or twice in a lifetime and will take a short course of SSRI's.

> Again, 2 to 10% of all adverse effects are reported to the FDA. Even if we don't agree on what is an AE, that is still a low number.

Again, how do you quantify how many are unreported? To whom exactly are these unreported effects being reported?

> And again, if people's experiences are being blown off which even pro meds folks agree on, how can you call anyone's experience isolated? That comes across as extremely insensitive even if that wasn't your intention.

No at all. The simple reality of the matter is that the overwhelming majority of people don't suffer extreme effects. That's in no way detracting from the experiences of those that do - it's just a fact.

> As far as agendas, everyone who posts on this board has one so please, it isn't limited to the anti-meds crowd. There isn't a human being on this earth who is completely objective and to claim otherwise is simply wrong.

Nonsense. The majority of people here clearly have altruistic motives. To suggest they're pushing an agenda is mildly insulting.

> You have an agenda by calling people like me rare isolated cases.

My only agenda is to inject a bit of balance and reason amongst the hysteria.

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by sowhysosad on April 29, 2009, at 18:11:22

Yes, in reply to 49er. You are posting on a site populated by people treating their depression, much of it severe, therefore requiring medication(s). Fresh air and exercise will not cut for this obstinate minority with endogenous, lifelong depression, many of whom can only dream of a life without taking pills every day and managing their side effects.

Need i remind you that depression causes brain atrophy (cell death) and shrinking of the hippocampus, IT alone is the baddie, not the drugs which work by reversing this damage and producing nerve cell regeneration. Which would you prefer? My own life has been spared because of them.

I suggest you take your line back to prozactruth or from wheresoever it came because something tells me you are preaching more harm than good on a board like this.

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by linkadge on April 20, 2009, at 10:03:18

Since you are a man of papers you'll know that risk of relapse rates in people with affective disorders is high: 50% after a second episode. 80-90% after a third, off medication. To speculate whether they changed you for the worse in adolescence is retrogressive and contrary to any doctrine that exemplifying wellness and growth, and since i imagine you were not put on them without good reason, analytically illegitimate.

More than anything what does come across in this and other similar posts is your particular dislike for/dissatisfaction with this class of drugs. Citing examples of their potential dangers might help lessen the doom-laden resonance they give off which i only hope isn't stopping somebody from taking their prozac.

I do think they are flawed. I am angry everyday at wondering whether i continue to feel the full range of emotions i felt before becoming depressed, but this is an imperfect world full of uncertainties. In my experience taking cipralex everyday is preferable to wanting more than anything not to exist.

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use) Linkadge, posted by West on May 4, 2009, at 18:08:09

I've never had a remission been on all the SSRI's and SNRI's in proper doseage. I just don't think they work for everyone me especially. I feel that my medical problems cause anxiety and depression in me. Try telling that to an endo or internist though " oh that's not my specialty see so and so". I feel it's great that some get well and react according to what's supposed to happen I guess my chemicals are more out of wack than though. Hormones way off. Oh well . Love Phillipa

In reply to Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by newquestions on April 16, 2009, at 9:10:07

Thank you for sharing your story. I have tears of recognition in my eyes. I could not tolerate the full 20mg dose of citalopram so used just 5mg for several years after a devastating break up of a relationship. That worked, despite doctors claiming it was less than therapeutic dose. After a while, it didn't work, and I tried a range of others. Desvenlafaxine full dose for a year. But I wanted to stop. I was addicted, and it took all my will power to come off. Tried some others. Then anxiety and the symptoms you describe hit. I'm now off everything, but it feels like I have permanent brain damage. And I can't sleep properly. I realise now I made a lot of stupid decisions on these ssri's and I can't recover the lost time and lost loves. We must find a better way to deal with this!

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story..., posted by Bollock on October 30, 2011, at 7:03:19

> Thank you for sharing your story. I have tears of recognition in my eyes. I could not tolerate the full 20mg dose of citalopram so used just 5mg for several years after a devastating break up of a relationship. That worked, despite doctors claiming it was less than therapeutic dose. After a while, it didn't work, and I tried a range of others. Desvenlafaxine full dose for a year. But I wanted to stop. I was addicted, and it took all my will power to come off. Tried some others. Then anxiety and the symptoms you describe hit. I'm now off everything, but it feels like I have permanent brain damage. And I can't sleep properly. I realise now I made a lot of stupid decisions on these ssri's and I can't recover the lost time and lost loves. We must find a better way to deal with this!

Bollock, You wrote,[...I was addicted...brain damage..recover the lost time...a better way...]. It is refreshing to read what you have posted here. I could tell you what has been revealed to me as to how healing could happen to recover the lost time and loves. But there are prohibitions to me here from the administration that prevent me from offering you what has been revealed to me that goes beyond psychiatry and the taking of mind-altering drugs that have the potential to rob one of their life and cause brian damage and have the potential to lead one into a mind-alterd state to have them want to kill themselves and/or others. It has been revealed to me that one can have a new life without money and without price. This revelation is higher than what man has written on this earth, and the thoughts that one could have could be higher than the thoughts of any man. What you could learn from me what is prohibited by Mr. Hsiung to me here could be like rain coming down that could water one's seed of their spirit and mind to have one return to the joy that was once had. And it could be like bread to the eater. And one could go out of their depression and addiction with joy and be led forth with peace and the mountians and hills could break forth before you into singing and all the trees of the field could clap their hands. And if you thirst for the water of life, you could read from me for I come here as a witness to the dead, a witness to those that are seeking life, a witness to those that are lost. For I am a witness that there is a new life, a higher life, a life of peace and joy . But I am prohibited here from telling you where to find that new life, even though I have come back from the dead.Lou

In reply to Lou's response-htuohvlyph » Bollock, posted by Lou Pilder on October 30, 2011, at 9:02:38

Lou, thanks for your reply. You seem to be suggesting a religious experience of some kind. For me, Buddhism has really opened my options. I don't think it is forbidden here to mention religion. Meditation, for example, has been shown to have many positive effects. Thoughts are influenced by other thoughts; moods are influenced by thoughts. There is a complex biochemistry going on, but we as whole people live in a connected world. A core set of unshakeable beliefs can help to provide resilience to the outside contrary world.

Also, for an informed, but alternative biochemistry view of serotonin and nutrition, see raypeat.com. I'm enjoying the articles there.

In reply to Re: Effects of long term SSRI use... My Story... » Bollock, posted by 49er on October 30, 2011, at 9:20:31

Hi 49er,

Thanks for your kind words! That is interesting about sleep, because I have not been sleeping so well actually. I'm finding that glycine with milk and protein powder helps a bit. But yes, I look back now and see that I was very over-confident on the ssri's and made risky decisions. Some of that was fun, but in the long run costly. Also, my learning ability and study concentration was worse on ssri's.

In reply to Re: Lou's response-htuohvlyph, posted by Bollock on October 30, 2011, at 10:58:07

> Lou, thanks for your reply. You seem to be suggesting a religious experience of some kind. For me, Buddhism has really opened my options. I don't think it is forbidden here to mention religion. Meditation, for example, has been shown to have many positive effects. Thoughts are influenced by other thoughts; moods are influenced by thoughts. There is a complex biochemistry going on, but we as whole people live in a connected world. A core set of unshakeable beliefs can help to provide resilience to the outside contrary world. > > Also, for an informed, but alternative biochemistry view of serotonin and nutrition, see raypeat.com. I'm enjoying the articles there.

Bollock, You wrote,[...biochemistry view of...forbiden to mention religion...]. I did go to that site and found what reinforces the view of many others in relation to what psychotropic drugs do to one's biochemistry. I have researched the historical development of psychotropic drugs from thousands of years ago to the present. I am prohibited here from posting a lot of facts concerning these drugs that have their origin in the years 1933 to 1945 and beyond that could be connected to {operation paperclip}. You could do your own search using[operation paperclip, psychiatrists, mind control]. This could involve {nerve agents}. You could also go to the administration board and read the requests and notifications from me to Mr. Hsiung and his deputy that are outstanding. The administration then could control the content here by addresing or not notifications and requests to them for their rationale(s), and that could lead to an indoctrination of the members here. Looking at the outstanding requests that by the nature of the requets and notification being outstanding, IMHO could arouse antiisemitic feelings and could also lead to Jews being victims of antiisemitic violence. This could happen by the nature of that psychotropic drugs could induce a mind-alterd state in the taker of these drugs to want them to kill themselves and/or others. If they are in a community that fosters in any way that the 1 and 1/2 million Jewish children murderd and that were victims of atrocities commited against them, which have been determined to be crimes aganst humanity, can not have forgivness or eternal life because they (redacted by respondent) Jesus, then there is the potential IMHHO for those that have (reacted by respondent) Jesus, even if they were the murderers, fot theose murderers to have eternal life and forgivness even though they murdered Jewish children. Now Mr. Hsiung says that in his TOS that support takes precedence so if you read that post in question, you could see that my request for Mr. Hsiung to post there if he considers the statement supportive or not, is outstanding. Now others could think that the statement in question is supportive, could they not? And that IMHHHO is the foundation of hatred toward the Jews which could then be fosterd here until Mr. Hsiung posts here as to if or of not he considers the statement to be supportive. There is a prohibition to me from Mr. Hsiung that I can not post here the foundation of Judiasm as revealed to me. But as long as the post in question that I am asking you to view on the admin board is outstanding,then is there not the aspect of there being two standards here? If not, and you do read the admin board, could you post here why there is not? And with two standards, could not some have (false) feelings of superiority toward Jews and others that do not accept the claim in question that {only} those that (redacted by respondent) Jesus have forgivness and eternal life? Here is a link to a post that has a link to a site cataloging crimes committed by those on psychotropic drugs including murder. Louhttp://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20110902/msgs/996161.html