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StrawberryBlond 5,823

@Givenchy I didn't mean rules in the sense of "we've all got to think the same." I meant there's certain core elements that everyone in the group believes. It's the same for any other group. You can have beliefs that off-shoot but if there's got to be core elements in place otherwise no group is going to last long or be taken seriously.

Yes, men go through these issues as well and with the exception of being encouraged to be a breadwinner, being discouraged from showing your sensitive emotions and being considered a less competant parent, there's not a whole lot else that will affect them equally as strongly when it comes to sexism. Yes, men suffer criticism for their body shape too but at least their body is encouraged to be a way that is possible to achieve in nature (basically, bulky/lean all over) whereas women are encouraged to have unnatural body shapes (a thin body that has curves in all the right places) which encourages them to eat too little and get plastic surgery to get curves where they don't naturally have them/maintain curves while the rest of the body slims. And men have a lot of responsibilities that women aren't expected to have but women make up for that when it comes to being expected to care for children and relatives, to the point where a lot of them give up their job to do it. And the whole 'being feminine is bad' stereotype is just as offensive to women as it is to men, an example of sexism being 2 sides of the same coin. Yes, gay men will experience problems but anyone who is LGBT will face problems, it's not a gender-specific thing, it's about the sexual orientation. Plenty of LGBT women face just the same level of discrimination as gay men.

I'm not saying that everyone in Islam follows their religion to the letter. Quite the contrary. But that doesn't mean that they aren't expected to by their family and society. Any feminist victories there are not coming from radical sources. They're coming from women who genuinely want the same rights as men.

You keep going on about this bad experience you had when you created a 3D render. I understand why you're annoyed because you don't see what you did as anything negative but a simple disclaimer wouldn't go amiss. Basically just say that you're rendering the character in their original conception and it means no more than that and that you support female gamers and their right to have positive representations of women. Female gamers are no longer a minority and their voice is rightfully coming to the forefront now because they're tired to seeing themselves objectified and disrespected in the games that they otherwise enjoy. And labels like feminazi came about because some people saw one woman acting out of line and passed on the word and the whole cause got a bad reception. The chances of meeting a woman like this is real life is rare. Feminists are sick of having to constantly defend themselves against this stereotype just because some people are so childish to think that the most radical members of any group represent everyone and that they are causing extreme damage. Open your eyes and realise that roughly 2% of any group is nuts and that they have extremely limited influence.

I did not say that the majority of men are like this. And as regards gay men, while yes, a lot of them are very supportive of feminism, I have encountered a lot of mean behaviour from them as well. Not necessarily always sexist stuff, but just generally mean-ness to women. Not hesitating to pick apart their looks, to call them disgusting names, to be dismissive of them around other men, sexualising them just as much as a straight man would, etc. In my experience, it's the more effeminate ones who have this tendency, likely because they have a habit of seeing themselves as "one of the girls" in certain situations, so they think it's ok to say and do certain stuff to/about women and it's fine. Not all, but some. It's very risky to talk about this though, it only brings up a lot of hate and homophobia accusations when I even try to, so I just keep it bottled up even though it annoys the hell out of me. That's another early lessons that a lot of females learn: don't speak up, even when you think something is wrong. Making a fuss or telling someone to stop doing something that makes you uncomfortable or offended is just plain rude.

I never said that you are the problem just for some trivial things that you like. The issue is that you aren't willing to admit that there is problematic elements to what you're enjoying. That doesn't mean you stop enjoying something, necessarily, but just consume it in a more socially conscious way, instead of being like: "That sucks, but that's life, moving on." Some of the culture that we enjoy can be seriously damaging and we need to start consuming it differently, make allowances for some stuff but not others, send a clear message to companies when they take things too far, etc.

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Givenchy 508

@Givenchy I didn't mean rules in the sense of "we've all got to think the same." I meant there's certain core elements that everyone in the group believes. It's the same for any other group. You can have beliefs that off-shoot but if there's got to be core elements in place otherwise no group is going to last long or be taken seriously.

1. Yes, men go through these issues as well and with the exception of being encouraged to be a breadwinner, being discouraged from showing your sensitive emotions and being considered a less competant parent, there's not a whole lot else that will affect them equally as strongly when it comes to sexism. Yes, men suffer criticism for their body shape too but at least their body is encouraged to be a way that is possible to achieve in nature (basically, bulky/lean all over) whereas women are encouraged to have unnatural body shapes (a thin body that has curves in all the right places) which encourages them to eat too little and get plastic surgery to get curves where they don't naturally have them/maintain curves while the rest of the body slims. And men have a lot of responsibilities that women aren't expected to have but women make up for that when it comes to being expected to care for children and relatives, to the point where a lot of them give up their job to do it. And the whole 'being feminine is bad' stereotype is just as offensive to women as it is to men, an example of sexism being 2 sides of the same coin. Yes, gay men will experience problems but anyone who is LGBT will face problems, it's not a gender-specific thing, it's about the sexual orientation. Plenty of LGBT women face just the same level of discrimination as gay men.

I'm not saying that everyone in Islam follows their religion to the letter. Quite the contrary. But that doesn't mean that they aren't expected to by their family and society. Any feminist victories there are not coming from radical sources. 2. They're coming from women who genuinely want the same rights as men.

3. You keep going on about this bad experience you had when you created a 3D render. I understand why you're annoyed because you don't see what you did as anything negative but a simple disclaimer wouldn't go amiss. Basically just say that you're rendering the character in their original conception and it means no more than that and that you support female gamers and their right to have positive representations of women. Female gamers are no longer a minority and their voice is rightfully coming to the forefront now because they're tired to seeing themselves objectified and disrespected in the games that they otherwise enjoy. And labels like feminazi came about because some people saw one woman acting out of line and passed on the word and the whole cause got a bad reception. The chances of meeting a woman like this is real life is rare. 4. Feminists are sick of having to constantly defend themselves against this stereotype just because some people are so childish to think that the most radical members of any group represent everyone and that they are causing extreme damage. 5. Open your eyes and realise that roughly 2% of any group is nuts and that they have extremely limited influence.

I did not say that the majority of men are like this. And as regards gay men, while yes, a lot of them are very supportive of feminism, I have encountered a lot of mean behaviour from them as well. Not necessarily always sexist stuff, but just generally mean-ness to women. Not hesitating to pick apart their looks, to 6. call them disgusting names, to be dismissive of them around other men, sexualising them just as much as a straight man would, etc. In my experience, it's the more effeminate ones who have this tendency, likely because they have a habit of seeing themselves as "one of the girls" in certain situations, so they think it's ok to say and do certain stuff to/about women and it's fine. Not all, but some. It's very risky to talk about this though, it only brings up a lot of hate and homophobia accusations when I even try to, so I just keep it bottled up even though it annoys the hell out of me. That's another early lessons that a lot of females learn: don't speak up, even when you think something is wrong. 7. Making a fuss or telling someone to stop doing something that makes you uncomfortable or offended is just plain rude.

8. I never said that you are the problem just for some trivial things that you like. The issue is that you aren't willing to admit that there is problematic elements to what you're enjoying. That doesn't mean you stop enjoying something, necessarily, but just consume it in a more socially conscious way, instead of being like: "That sucks, but that's life, moving on." Some of the culture that we enjoy can be seriously damaging and we need to start consuming it differently, make allowances for some stuff but not others, send a clear message to companies when they take things too far, etc.

1. I hate to say this, but you haven't been a man before. And I've never been a woman before, either. You've been clarifying a lot of stuff about how women suffer a lot, but at the same time, it's almost impossible for you to see that men do suffer as well and that their suffering is can be just as serious as women. The image of the ideal man whether in the straight or gay community is also something that not anyone can achieve, and you're always attacked or rejected for not conforming to it. Many men smoke, drink, party just because they don't wanna be shamed by other men for being "uncool" or considered too lame for girl to date, many men are abandoned by their girlfriends for not being "cool enough", all that in addition to the financial responsibilities with the family..etc. which I mentioned in the previous post. Being taught and expected to be some sort of leader or to be responsible for more than you should be responsible for is a huge burden especially when it's related to financial issues, because you get paid what you get paid, but you still have to support all those people you're linked to, not to mention that the moment you start expressing yourself, you're immediately considered childish, not fit enough for a family, a drama queen, too sensitive..etc.

I'm happy to hear about the issues that a woman would face, even though I'm aware of most, but to hear it from a woman feels more authentic because you're experiencing it, while I'm merely observing it. This is why I'm explaining to you, and not in a manner of putting you down or making you feel privileged in comparison to men, but to show you that the stuff us, the men, go through are in no way simple or manageable, at least not to every man, whether it's from the simple stuff like finding a date in high school or fitting in to the extremes of supporting families, dealing with divorce or parentings issues, and living up to the expectations of society of what a man should be to be good enough, to be respected enough, to be appreciated by his partner, his friends, his family, his boss...etc., so I hope my explanation brings you a clearer idea of a man's struggle just as how you explained to me how women's struggle is nothing to be underestimated. It's hard being expected to be the tough one all the time, the one who always has the solution, the one who always got the funds, the one who's always ready to cancel anything and come for someone's aid, the one who's expected to be the caring friend, the good son, the loving husband, the protective and wise father, the one who's got it all under control.

2. Same rights do not translate to only believing a woman's claim to the police that someone insulted her verbally or physically and getting him into trouble even when she's just doing it because she's got something against him that she cannot face him for unless it's by making a false accusation of physical or verbal abuse.

Though this is an issue that doesn't represent the majority of women, but there are many stories of women who left with their husbands from the middle east to Canada or US, they'd ask for divorce and claim that the man is abusing them and even molesting their kids. O.K., fair enough, she has every right for that, provided that it's true. Guess what happens next? she bans him from seeing the kids. Sure, that's definitely her and the kids' right, because the father is terrible. But here's the twist, she meets with him, she makes a deal to let him see the kids without even the presence of a counselor, provided that he pays her a few thousand dollars monthly, takes care of all their financial needs, and pays her $500 a visit. WOW. Sounds like all this money has erased the fact that he was an abusive husband and a child molester...

Of course, no matter how many hundreds of women do this, it wouldn't be only a fraction percent of all women, and this cannot be generalized, but men do suffer such mentalities, but guess what? the law will never believe them, because they weren't the woman making the accusation.

3. Because it's experiences not one experience, and because I responded the way you suggested, and the answer was that I'm still a horrible person and part of the problem because I'm not taking part in changing that. But guess what? these people don't seem to have a problem when girls cosplay as the same character to video game events and proudly hire professional photographers to take pictures for them to be posted online. But I guess it's ok for them to sexualize for them but never okay for a man to admire a character who just happened to be sexy.

I guess what these people need to do is face reality, because we, as people, do have our tastes and our tastes aren't gonna change just because they offend somebody. I could admire a naked man or a naked woman all day. Why? because that person didn't take that shot with a gun to their head and just because that man or woman is decided to be sexualized or allow people to objectify them, doesn't mean that they represent all the men or women on the planet. So what I feel towards them and what they make me feel is exclusive between him/her and the people looking at them, not between the people and the entire gender of that person who's naked.

4. There are stereotypes about every group. Muslims are considered wife-beating, goat-humping terrorists, Black people are considered thugs, rappers and thieves, gays are consider effeminate men who only looking for random sex and fashion and are often a source of disease.. or you're often told "but you don't look gay" as if being gay has to come with a set of traits,... and the list goes on. They're all stereotypes linked to each group and each of those will try to defend the image of their own group and erase the stereotype, so it's not a feminist exclusive thing.

5. Is there any back up to that percentage and is it the same for every group or you just made that up? Just curious.

6. I agree about this and I'm against this 100%. A lot of effeminate gay men think they're "one of the girls" or somehow have the right to say whatever they want about girls but then be upset when someone responds to them with the same level of disrespect. But regarding the sexualization thing, a lot of women, including regular citizens and celebrities will be like "I only let the gays dress me. They're the best", "Gay stylists are the best". "Just ask your gay friends their advice before you get a spray tan"...etc. So there seems to be some sort of mutual understanding of what women want to achieve and what gays think they can do for women.

7. To be honest, I hate the idea that people should stay silent and accept the other side's offenses or fear responding so as not to be "rude" or "offensive". Maybe the other side should be offended to wake up to reality. Maybe they should be called out for their behavior so that with time, their behaviors won't be socially acceptable, and less and less people will behave in that manner. Walking on egg shells in fear of offending somebody, or shielding oneself in safe spaces is wrong, because it only allows the other side's problem to grow instead of being faced with facts that debunks their ways of thinking, because these stereotypes or these fears and opposing stances some people take towards others are often based on certain ideas and misinformation, and when people stay silent instead of facing them is wrong because they're helping continue believing what they believe rather than changing their minds with facts.

8. I understand you, but the thing is, honestly, people are becoming way too sensitive these days that no work of art or entertainment that gets released nowadays that doesn't receive backlash for trivial tings that certain groups deem "offensive" or behave like it's some sort of conspiracy against them or that the maker of said product owes them to represent them in their own work, regardless of the maker's own desire to do so and it always has to be with dictation from said group, otherwise, you're immediately attacked along with your product.

One moment, people are complaining about white washing, the other is about using a black (brown) but not a darker black actress to play a certain role of a black women, the other is for representing a gay man in a minor role, the other is for killing off a gay man in a TV show were people are usually dying and acting like it was a conspiracy against the character just because he/she were gay, the other is complaint about why an actress of a certain race is playing a cyborg built for a woman of another race, the other is complaining about someone's hairstyle or fashion, because "culture appropriation". There are just too many people complaining these days that nobody can even tell whom to take seriously. It's like people cannot even look at anything as a work of art of entertainment, but instead, everything that is released is considered a conspiracy, or worse, a nuclear bomb thrown at them. And then when the maker is forced to apologize, they're like "Screw you, you don't even mean it!". Like what the hell do these people want? Does any of them even care what's going on in the world or the worst thing to them is how much their own group is part of a certain movie and whether the character which belongs to their group is the way they'd like to market themselves as or not, and if this character's gonna live long enough or not..etc.? I know that just because someone is suffering the most, doesn't mean that others should not if they have lessor problems, because we all have problems, but some people who are a considerably high percentage of society these days is complaining about the smallest things that may have zero effects on their lives, instead of trying to do something that can make a tangible difference to the world and to people in dire need of serious help.

Edited May 19, 2017 by Givenchy

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Whispering 15,033

I'm 100% sure everyone here would've loved this if it was by Gaga. But, it's a Katy Perry video and Gaga hasn't really released an extraordinary great video like this for quite a long time. Also, her views are ****ing impressive. I mean... 10.6M in less than 24 hours.

So, yeah it's all jealousy in my opinion

I'm 100% sure that I would have hated if Gaga had released this video...there is absolutely no doubt in my mind over that!

Jealousy? Nope, I would much rather follow an artist who can sing live, has performance skills and excellent stage presence. Others like manufactured pop stars or other type of artists, and that's absolutely fine...but you need to understand that not everyone here finds Katy Perry talented or interesting as an artist.

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StrawberryBlond 5,823

@Givenchy I completely understand where you're coming from when you talk about this struggle. You don't need to delve into it, I know what you're talking about. Though I think the last part of your paragraph could have easily applied to women just as much especially the "drop everything to come to someone's aid" idea - it's always the females who are expected to do this in every situation I've ever seen, especially when it comes to children and elderly relatives, to the point where I swear it's almost like women want to be the first to offer to make themselves look good, as controversial a character assessment as that is. The amount of women who say "I have to do everything around here and look after everyone" even when they don't really shows you what happens when we preach this concept of female superiority (I repeat, I want equal rights, not superiority). It makes me actually feel guilty when I can't help out or to simply suggest that someone else would be better suited. And the whole "caring friend, loving husband, protective and wise father" could totally be applied to women, just with a gender change.

As for you saying that women can easily abuse the law to ensure that a man gets into trouble or can't see his kids and whatnot, can't you not see that this is a clear side effect of years of sexism towards women? Because we've treated women like weak little flowers, we're more tempted to believe that they're telling the truth (which isn't always true, so many women tell people about a sexual assault/rape and no one believes them and the majority don't speak up for fear of being disbelieved) and because we've treated women as the primary caregivers because of our natural maternity, courts are more likely to think that a woman is always the better candidate to be a full-time parent. It's equally sexist to both genders.

You do make a good point about there being hypocrisy in female sexualisation, though. A lot of women seem to have a problem with other people sexualising them but mysteriously have no problem when they choose to sexualise themselves. Of course, the dynamics change there and you're more comfortable, but is it morally much better?

Of course any group suffers with stereotypes that people choose to define them by so it's hardly exclusive but aren't I allowed to merely complain about the issue even so? And no, it's just a stat I made up but it's based on something that I lot of us say: "98% good people, 2% bad people, but everyone thinks it's the other way round" idea. I know I've never met a feminist in real life who acts like the way some tumblr feminists do. To say "we're not all like that" is an understatement.

I really don't think this is a case of "you're being too sensitive." That is one of the top 3 things women are used to being told every time they make a complaint about a representation, a comment, treatment, whatever. That it's just a joke, just banter, it's just a music video, it's just a compliment, men go through this too, whatever. I have read too many harrowing stories about the negative effect of these so-called harmless events. A lot of men don't know why they're harmful because it doesn't effect them, they've never had to consider the consequences. I have very big evidence for you that the media affects us. Technology is considered of paramount importance today and we are avid media consumers. If we take technology seriously, why don't we take the media seriously? We spend hours of hours a week consuming media and all the representations it holds through technology. It's high time that we took it seriously and say yes, it does have an impact.

I'd be more than happy to discuss this further with you and delve deeper into the issue and give you examples but the problem is, we're cluttering up this thread somewhat and going off-topic. If you want to do PMs, that's fine. But I think we're being a bit extra by keeping this going in a thread other people are trying to post comments in.

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Givenchy 508

@Givenchy I completely understand where you're coming from when you talk about this struggle. You don't need to delve into it, I know what you're talking about. Though I think the last part of your paragraph could have easily applied to women just as much especially the "drop everything to come to someone's aid" idea - it's always the females who are expected to do this in every situation I've ever seen, especially when it comes to children and elderly relatives, to the point where I swear it's almost like women want to be the first to offer to make themselves look good, as controversial a character assessment as that is. The amount of women who say "I have to do everything around here and look after everyone" even when they don't really shows you what happens when we preach this concept of female superiority (I repeat, I want equal rights, not superiority). It makes me actually feel guilty when I can't help out or to simply suggest that someone else would be better suited. And the whole "caring friend, loving husband, protective and wise father" could totally be applied to women, 1. just with a gender change.

2. As for you saying that women can easily abuse the law to ensure that a man gets into trouble or can't see his kids and whatnot, can't you not see that this is a clear side effect of years of sexism towards women? Because we've treated women like weak little flowers, we're more tempted to believe that they're telling the truth (which isn't always true, so many women tell people about a sexual assault/rape and no one believes them and the majority don't speak up for fear of being disbelieved) and because we've treated women as the primary caregivers because of our natural maternity, courts are more likely to think that a woman is always the better candidate to be a full-time parent. It's equally sexist to both genders.

3. You do make a good point about there being hypocrisy in female sexualisation, though. A lot of women seem to have a problem with other people sexualising them but mysteriously have no problem when they choose to sexualise themselves. Of course, the dynamics change there and you're more comfortable, but is it morally much better?

4. Of course any group suffers with stereotypes that people choose to define them by so it's hardly exclusive but aren't I allowed to merely complain about the issue even so? And no, it's just a stat I made up but it's based on something that I lot of us say: "98% good people, 2% bad people, but everyone thinks it's the other way round" idea. I know I've never met a feminist in real life who acts like the way some tumblr feminists do. To say "we're not all like that" is an understatement.

5. I really don't think this is a case of "you're being too sensitive." That is one of the top 3 things women are used to being told every time they make a complaint about a representation, a comment, treatment, whatever. That it's just a joke, just banter, it's just a music video, it's just a compliment, men go through this too, whatever. I have read too many harrowing stories about the negative effect of these so-called harmless events. A lot of men don't know why they're harmful because it doesn't effect them, they've never had to consider the consequences. I have very big evidence for you that the media affects us. Technology is considered of paramount importance today and we are avid media consumers. If we take technology seriously, why don't we take the media seriously? We spend hours of hours a week consuming media and all the representations it holds through technology. It's high time that we took it seriously and say yes, it does have an impact.

6. I'd be more than happy to discuss this further with you and delve deeper into the issue and give you examples but the problem is, we're cluttering up this thread somewhat and going off-topic. If you want to do PMs, that's fine. But I think we're being a bit extra by keeping this going in a thread other people are trying to post comments in.

1. That was exactly my point. A lot of things that society may focus on as problems of a specific group, are in fact problems that humanity as a whole faces, such as the whole standards and ideas thing and the "am I good enough?" part when it comes to looks. The thing with the whole "running to someone's aid" It's definitely true that women are expected to be the best chefs, the best mothers, the best housekeepers, the best looking models, the best in bed, the best in everything, and the same goes for women, be the tough guy, good parent, the one who spends, the one who teaches, the one who does the lawn, the one who apologizes no matter whose fault is it, the one who brings the gifts, the one..etc. The problem is, sometimes people want to have it both ways, the radicals I mentioned, sometimes go like "I'm 100% equal to you, there's no such thing as difference in strength of a female or a male. I'm exactly the same as a man and I demand equal treatment." but then if she hits a man, it's bravery, but if he hits her, it's a catastrophe. So then what happened to the whole "being entirely equal"? I'm against abuse to everyone, men, women, children, elderly..etc. so I'm not justifying abuse, only calling out the hypocrisy of some.

2. It's a delicate territory, to be honest. Because a lot of women who are not believed end up being true, and a lot of those who are believed and taken seriously, turn out to have been taking advantage of the situation for a certain gain. Sometimes the wife is the best parent, sometimes the husband is the best parent, and the kids are the ones who pay the price when they don't know how to fix things or the judge decides for the wrong side, be it the man or the woman.

3. Yeah, this is what I was saying. It's like people only want you to like something when they want you to like it. And that isn't possible, because we as people are sexual and emotional beings and our wants and needs, likes and dislikes aren't governed by right and wrong or someone's consent. Sometimes we desire someone who is married or for a straight person, to be gay and vice versa. It doesn't mean we're gonna force ourselves on them, but inside, we'll always picture them according to how we feel for that. Just an example, assume that I'm a gay man who has a crush on a straight man. Maybe that man isn't okay with men sexualizing or feeling desire for him, but there's nothing he can do about it, because the fact that I fancy him is up to me, and it's not a choice really, and if I happened to stare or look at pics of him or if it was a game character that I thought to be sexy or designed to be hot, it doesn't mean I'm offending the entire gender nor attempting to rape anyone or treat them as an object, but merely expressing my desire within the walls of my mind, and in case of characters, I'm merely using art to express what I like, which is alright for both genders.

4. Thanks for the clarification.

5. I think it differs from one case to another. Telling someone "it's just a joke" when someone joked a way that can be considered degrading and plain humiliating is immoral. But for a movie to feature an all white cast, all male cast, all gay cast, all arab cast, or a diverse one, there's no conspiracy here. If a game series features only male protagonists, that's not an attack against women, if a brown actress played a character who is of a darker shade of black, that's no racist, if I make my hair in dreads and I'm a white man, I'm not "stealing" or "appropriating", I just like the style. There's no copyright for outfits. People have dressed and tried stuff from other cultures for ages. People don't just suddenly decide that it' offensive and give it a new name to make sound like a big issue. And there's a hell lot of hypocrisy surrounding that because when a Victoria's Secret model "appropriated" a native american dress, they made it sound like a catastrophe because it's offensive to their culture and religion, yet when Madonna, Gaga and other singers dress as nuns and simulate sex with biblical figures or wear islamic or jewish or japanese outfits, people defend them from these groups complaints who consider it offensive to their culture and religion, and they say "this is art!". So it seems to me like you can appropriate certain cultures but not others.

Regarding media, yes we do spend hours consuming media, but as a society, I think we need to be mature and responsible enough to tell the difference between a movie and reality, to not expect every movie to present an ethical story, to not demand that every director includes every existing community in their work, to not consider every presence of an element or the lack of it and every creative decisions to be some sort of conspiracy against us, and to actually respect the fact that artists and content creators do not owe us anything. There was a case a while back when a new hit video game came out and one person was like "Oh why the hell do you have to be so racist? is this another crappy product where a white female has to be the winner of all other cultures? why not a black women or man?". And I was like "They wrote a story and made it a video game, and they don't owe you to make it about you or your race. You can make your own game however you want, but don't just expect the world to act like they owe you any compliment with their work."