So... after nearly derailing the discussion section of a completely unrelated story, it was suggested by someone (Blade_Master) that I go and create a new Smash Bros. thread dedicated to a potential new entry of the series (or a port of Smash 4 to the Switch too... I suppose...) where we can come and post all our thoughts on everything Smash related, just like we did on the old Smash Bros. thread... before the old forums got deleted anyways... so here it is!

Um... don't know what else to put here... someone else suggested I do this. I'm more a reactive kind of guy than a pro-active one... and kinda preachy and pushy and a perfectionist... and impulsive... sometimes I'm actually happy the old forum was erased... pretty sure I was coming off as annoying and a bit of a jerk a few times there... and I'm derailing the thread again...

Replying right away so that this thread can become visible in the sidebar.

One of the discussions we were having before was what franchises/characters do you think are locks for the next smash bros game?

So far, most agree that at the least Splatoon seems to be a lock. But there has been some debate on whether or not ARMS is worthy of a spot. I think that it would make sense for the franchise to have character representation as it has been relatively successful on the Switch. I also think it would be oood for Nintendo to have some synergy between its two fighting franchises.

Yeah, Inkling from Splatoon is basically guaranteed at this point... the whole thing just shot up like a rocket and is now rising higher with the Switch sequel. It's easily the biggest and most popular Nintendo owned franchise at this point not to have a playable character.

As for ARMS... I'm still not 100% convinced it's a guaranteed lock at this point. Yeah, it was good and successful, but I'm not sure that alone ensures anything really...

Actually, I think we're reaching a point where we can't really say any franchise/character being included in the next Smash can be called a certainty. They've added most, if not all of the A tier franchises at this point, and a lot of B and C franchises as well... same with characters too. And looking back at which franchises/characters got in and which ones didn't, it's hard to say what logic they're working with to decide who they include... there doesn't really seem to be a noticeable pattern, at least from where I'm looking.

So before we discuss potential newcomers....let's discuss who is most likely to not return. Smash 4 had I believe 58 total characters counting DLC, so we would probably see that roster reduced some. Here are my choices for who to remove:

Corrin (Give a new FE character a spot)
Dark Pit (Make him a Pit Skin)
Dr. Mario...well actually keep him and retool Mario too be more based on Odyssey
Cloud (unless FF7 comes to Switch)
Lucas (skin of Ness)
Mewtwo (not relevant anymore. Can give us something more recent)
Roy (not relevant anymore)
Falco (retool or remove)
Jigglypuff (not relevant. Can be replaced with a better pokemon choice)
Link (retool with BotW moveset. Young Link can stay for the classic Link moveset)
Lucina (skin of Marth)
Mii Fighter, Brawler and Swordfighter (they suck)
Sheik (replace with Impa from Hyrule Warriors)
Wii Fit Trainer (why she ever got in I don't know)

That is 14 less characters, so that would give us plenty of room to make additions. What do you think?

Well, I suppose this is as good a place as any to start... although I don't know if we can really discuss who is "most likely to not return" since the current roster is full of characters who many were sure weren't coming back.

Corrin - inconclusive.
I like her move set, especially the moves she uses in Fire Emblem Warriors, but I can understand why some say she should be removed though. In truth however, Fire Emblem characters in general is going to take some deep thinking, so I'm not certain...

Dark Pit - complicated.
Making Dark Pit a costume character for Pit in the same vein as Alph with Olimar might make some sense for Dark Pit.. but the idea of him using the Sacred Treasures Final Smash doesn't sit right with me, so I'm not 100% on board with the costume idea... not 100% on board with Alph still being a costume either, what with Olimar's Final Smash involving the Hocotate Freight ship; something Alph never encountered during its functional days.

Actually, the whole concept of clones in general needs to be looked at... there are advantages to their existence; there will always be similar, but not identical characters that won't work as mere costumes... cloning might be the only real option in those situations. Uh... for the record, I'm not advocating for Dark Pit's return... I do kind of agree, his addition was really pointless...

Dr. Mario - removed.
I suppose I should start by saying we definitely don't need two Marios... at least some clones like Dark Pit and Toon Link have the advantage of being completely different characters, but this is literally a second version of the same character. It would probably be best if Dr. Mario became a costume for Mario... maybe they could even use custom moves to give Mario access to the Megavitamin attack for a more authentic Dr. Mario costume.

As for your idea of retooling Mario to be based on Odyssey, I'm going to have to say no to that. While I do agree he can use some updating to reflect newer games (drop the F.L.U.D.D. for Cappy maybe?) a full revision based on one game would be very unwise for a character who is both constantly evolving and yet still hold onto his traditional skills.

Cloud - removed.
Even in the odd chance Final Fantasy 7 came to a Nintendo system, I'm not really happy how Final Fantasy on Nintendo systems has been handled over the years... I fear the series as a whole may as well be called a Sony-specific franchise by this point. There are other more Nintendo related franchises from Squeenix that deserve the spot.

Lucas - removed.
Considering how similar he is to Ness, it would just make far more sense if he was a costume for him. Save the spot for another character; perhaps even a different Earthbound character.

Mewtwo - keep.
I have to strongly disagree with your opinion here (as my avatar probably makes obvious). There are few Pokemon characters with any real degree of obvious relevance, but I'd have to say Mewtwo is one of the few who has some; he's the closest thing to a villainous Pokemon the series has--he was the main antagonist in Pokken Tournament, fyi--and one of the few uber-tier legendary characters who can work in Smash. The way I see it, the three most longstanding relevant Pokemon are Pikachu, Mewtwo and Lucario. The mascot, the villain and the hero, or for a more specific comparison: Pikachu=Megaman, Mewtwo=M. Bison (or maybe Akuma), and Lucario=Ryu... at least, that's the way I feel Game Freak regards them.

Roy - removed.
From what I keep hearing, Roy and his game of origin represent an unremarkable part of the entire Fire Emblem series, and that the only people who really want him in Smash are the people who like playing him in Smash... not really a good reason to keep him around, so I have to agree he needs to be let go. I suppose he could work as a costume for someone else like Marth or Lucina... but then his fire effects would be reduced to just visual effects... which I suppose could work?

Falco - removed.
Don't get why he keeps coming back... he's still a clone, he's still his obnoxious, arrogant self, he's still no more significant than Slippy or Peppy, and there are plenty of better Star Fox characters (Wolf? Krystal?) and blaster characters (Saki Amamiya?) that could take his place.

Jigglypuff - removed.
Was Jigglypuff ever relevant? I know it was once one of the more popular characters, but that was forever ago. Its only strengths in Smash were removed in Brawl and it's been a bottom tier character ever since. And the number of viable replacements keep getting bigger... it just makes no sense to keep it around.

Link - complicated.
Once again I must disagree with your idea of retooling a character to match a single game, especially a character that actually represents about 12 different characters. This is Smash Link we're talking about; he represents all Links, not just one of them; reducing him to one specific version of Link would be disregarding the entire history of the legendary heroes of Hyrule.

That said, Smash Link could easily be updated to include more recent games, including Breath of the Wild moves (the Remote Bombs would make a nice Custom Move). Furthermore, it would be nice to see a variety of costumes based on the various Links, rather than just one incarnation as was in previous Smash games.

As for Toon Link (I'm assuming you mean Toon Link when you say Young Link), well, that's equally complicated. On the one hand, I don't see why we need two largely similar characters (well, they're different characters, but they look and fight the same anyways) and I don't really agree that we need a Toon Link just to represent the art style. On the other hand, games like Wind Waker and Minish Cap are great and I'd love to see them get represented... honestly, I'm not entirely certain about this...

Lucina - inconclusive.
I'm not sure the idea of turning her into a costume for Marth would work... there's a few noticeable differences in the dimensions of their bodies that might make them incompatible. On the concept of character costumes however, I do believe characters like Chrom, Alm and Sigurd would make great character costumes for Marth.

As for Lucina, one idea I had was make Anna playable... having appeared in just about every game, she'd make for a good representation of the whole series. She would wield a sword as her main weapon (maybe based on her Awakening incarnation?), and like Marth would also have many different character costumes, including Lucina, Caeda and Celica. There are so many A-tier Fire Emblem characters, this would be a simple way of getting many in with minimal effort, while providing some variety between them.

Mii Fighter, Brawler and Swordfighter - removed.
Putting create-a-characters and Miis in general into Smash never appealed to me... the fact that Nintendo seems to be moving away from Miis suggests there's no point in holding onto them. Also, isn't this technically three characters, not one? I mean, they're all different after all.

Sheik - removed.
While I agree keeping Zelda's one-off alter-ego is kind of pointless at this point, I'm not sure I really want to see Impa take over her move set. I loved Impa in Hyrule Warriors, with her oversized sword and water powers... would prefer she used something like that.

Wii Fit Trainer - inconclusive.
I have mixed feelings about this one... on the one hand I kind of like her, and don't really want to see them ax entire franchises. On the other hand, her move set is weird... I know, this is Smash, weirdness is to be expected... and yet some of her moves go beyond my... what's the term? Suspension of disbelief? My ability to ignore the illogical nature of what's going on. Summoning a ball of light with Sunrise Salutation and flying with Hoola Hoops... and the fact that all her attacks are literally yoga moves... I'm just not sure about her right now...

Bowser Jr. - inconclusive.
I'm gonna just come out and say it... I despise this one; he just seems like a filler character, popping up to pilot a machine that could just as easily be controlled by an AI or a generic enemy, and not very consistently I might add... he wasn't in several recent games like Mario 3D World or Odyssey. The fact that he fights with a machine--meaning we fight his machine, not him--doesn't do anything to help that feeling. I confess I do like his move set, and playing as the Koopalings... but feel like he just doesn't deserve the spot, especially for a franchise that's guaranteed to have no less than eight characters (Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, plus Yoshi, Wario, DK and Diddy, which are technically Mario characters, even if Smash doesn't treat them as Mario characters).

Rosalina - inconclusive.
I actually like Rosalina and how she fights... but again, I'm not convinced such a minor character really deserves a spot over so many alternative options, especially now that we've moved away from the Galaxy series.

Charizard - removed.
I never understood the love this character got... it's a generic fire "dragon" character... and if fights like Bowser with wings... the Pokemon franchise is loaded with unique character designs, why waste the spot on something so generic?

Greninja - inconclusive.
The fact that this one was added only because Sakurai thought it looked cool has always bugged me... not saying that it isn't an interesting character, but like Charizard before it, I feel like it's fairly generic as far as Pokemon go and with its generation done and over with it may be a bit outdated by this point to keep around.

R.O.B. - inconclusive.
Maybe it's just me? But I always found it odd playing as a real-world peripheral that never appeared in any sort of actual game. Doesn't help that its entire move set is made from scratch, and not because it comes from old games with little to work with, but because it doesn't come from any game.

I also want Break The Targets to return. I really don't think it'd be THAT hard to make unique ones for each characters. Assets can easily be simple and many can be reused across all different characters. Plus, characters of the same franchise may even have the same Target arena, to make it a bit easier. Placing some targets and some simple blocks and such should not be too hard, especially when they do not have to make the rest of the game from scratch.

And a evolved version of Melee's Adventure would be awesome to have. With Path choices after every battle.

You start by picking which platformer level to play (like the Mario and Zelda ones from Melee). Maybe have three choices of those. After you beat one, you get to pick again between three levels of another style. Let's say, a level where a huge enemy chaces you like that Porky statue in Brawl. Pick between being chaced by Porky, or Crocomire, or a Breath of The Wild Guardian, and have a little level themed after whichever you pick.
Then pick among three franchises to have a standard battle with, then maybe pick between some 'survive a horde of enemies' style level. Make it so that all/most franchises gets at least One pick possible in the adventure. This would make it VERY fun to replay over and over since you can only pick one out of three in all of this.

And of course have a good chunk of Bosses from various games, too. Etc etc.

Ice Climbers - I would like to see them return as well. With not being limited by the 3DS, and given the fact that I believe they were already made playable by the dev team for the Wii U, they will definitely be back.

Snake - I'd rather give his moveset to someone else. This franchise has little to no presence on Nintendo hardware nowadays. Maybe do a rework into DOOMGUY, to get some Bethesda representation.

Inkling -Agreed.

Spring Man - I'd rather have Min Min or Ribbon Girl.

Ridley - I still remember how you were rooting for him last time :

)

King K. Rool - Agreed.

Decidueye - I like Decidueye as the new pokemon rep. But I haven't played the recent ones so I am not sure
if someone better exists.

BOTW Link - How would you handle having 3 versions of Link in the game? Would he replace the current adult link? I would be down for that.

Pauline - Nah. She can be an assist trophy if anything. I'd rather see her in an Odyssey based stage singing in the background.

Crash Bandicoot - Why? He is more relevant to Sony than Nintendo imo.

Rabbid - I really hope not. While I don't hate the Rabbids, they are nowhere near iconic enough. I'd rather have Rayman if we are getting Ubisoft representation.

Sora - I would LOVE this...but to stay consistent, only if we get KH on Switch.

Wolf - Doesn't really need a update much, since literally all his moves are entirely unique to himself. Only his specials are similar to, say, Fox and such, but they, too, are all different. Wolf is fine the way he is. I can't believe people say he is a clone.

Ice Climbers - Indeed, I am 100% sure Ice Climbers will return, they would require VERY little work if they were already finished-ish on the Wii-U.

Snake - Nah, I think he'd be important in Smash BECAUSE he has very little Nintendo representation. He adds a lot to the game and will surely bring in a lot of non-Nintendo/Smash fans. Plus, whatwith Nintendo being budies with Konami after how great Bomberman did, I am positive we'll see Metal Gear games come to the Switch. ^^

Spring Man - While Spring Man is not the most interesting character in ARMS, be sure that, as the main character and the face of the franchise, he WILL be playable before any other ARMS fighter. All franchises has the main character playable first and foremost, I believe. But if we get two ARMS reps, I am all for Master Mummy, Twintelle or Dr. Coyle. Unless Sakurai breaks his so-far rules, Spring Man is a sure thing first.

Ridley - Oh yes, I have not stopped my Ridley desires, haha. XD I still think he can be made playable, no matter how Lanky he is. And thanks to recent events, I think he has a bigger chance than ever to appear.

BOTW Link - He's not replace any Link, I believe three Links could easily coexist, though I am sure many fans would complain (but we DO already have three Marios. Mario, Dr Mario, Green Mario). Since I feel Nintendo will demand Sakurai (or whoever makes the game) adds something-BOTW in the game, I think we'll get a Blue-Tunic Link, with a moveset based on that game. Like Robin, he'd use strong weapons but when they break he uses sticks instead for a while, etc etc. He'd be wholly unique in his moveset.

Pauline - Nintendo has learned that adding females does a lot of good with fans, and what better female then THE original female? XD I think Sakurai could be VERY creative with her moveset, since she has never really done that much. I am not sure what she'd do, tbh, but I think she could be a very unique fighter. And when she is battling, Alfonzo sings in the background. Alfonzo: "Leave it to me!"

Crash Bandicoot - Well, originally I preferred to have only Nintendo characters in Smash, but with how many third party icons we have, I figured, let's put the real icons here, and Crash is still a popular Icon it seems. He has been on Nintendo platforms, and since Sony doesn't own him, they'd probably get a lot of happy fans if he appeared with his own stage. Especially with the rumors that the Crash Trilogy will hit the Switch.

Also, if we get Indie characters, I also have three of those I could see happen!

Shovel Knight, Shantae, and Freddy Fazbear. And I am not joking about Freddy. He is one of the most inconic faces in recent memory, Japan loves him, and he'd be awesome in Smash. He'd stick out SO much that he'd fit in SO well. His trailer could be Luigi watching him on the Cameras, and then getting jumpscared. :p

Do you think indie characters should have a character rep in Smash? On one hand, I like the idea of representing indies. But I really don't want to open the floodgates for indies with the inclusion of one character, the way sonic opened the floodgates for third parties.

Speaking of third parties, who would you like to see return? I combined a list of old and the ones you listed. Let's say you can pick 6. If you want someone not on the list, feel free to add them as well!

I believe indies deserve at least one representative in Smash, especially with how active Nintendo seems to be with going after them... as for 'opening a floodgate' I don't see how adding one indie character would change anything; it's just another third party character (unlike Cloud... now there's a character that set a very bad precedence)...

I'm not good at picking anything unless I'm totally certain, so how about I just give my opinion instead?

-Sonic, Mega Man & Pac-Man
Personally, I'm of the opinion that these three will definitely return in future Smash games, barring any disagreements between Nintendo and their owners of course. Sure, we can argue over the quality and frequency of their games being released, but in the end they are iconic to gamers and gaming history, past and present, are the mascots of their respective companies, and every once in a while do star in a really good game (that usually appears on a Nintendo system too), proving they (or more specifically their creators) are still capable of greatness.

-Bayonetta
A very curious character to consider... before, Nintendo owned one entry of the Bayonetta series... now they own two... that's two-thirds of the series exclusive to Nintendo platforms, because Nintendo made it happened. Nintendo must really like her if they're going out of their way to support her so much... wouldn't be shocked if she made a comeback.

-Cloud
As I've stated before, Cloud's inclusion into Smash is really dumb... the Final Fantasy series hasn't seen a major title on a Nintendo system since the SNES and Final Fantasy 7 hasn't appeared on Nintendo systems at all. The series is basically alien to Nintendo systems by this point in time... even if Final Fantasy 7 was to make it to Nintendo at some point in the future, I feel like there are better Squeenix characters and franchises that should get the spot before Cloud.

-Snake
Highly doubt he'll ever make a comeback. He only got in because Kojima requested it, and Kojima doesn't work for Konami anymore... furthermore, his addition in Brawl hasn't brought much more of the Metal Gear series to Nintendo systems, while the series continues rather consistently on other platforms. Finally, if they really needed a Konami representative in Smash, they have some really good alternatives...

-Ryu
Iconic for sure, but I can't help but feel the Street Fighter series is a bit of an odd choice right now, thanks in no part to Sony buying up SFV and the general failure of both SFV and MvC:Infinite... honestly, I'm not sure right now about Ryu (the fact that I would prefer Chun-Li probably isn't helping)...

-Crash
Umm... well... let's see... started off as a Sony character, starred in three generally considered good games... got sold off, starred in a lot of generally considered bad games... is now back in the spotlight because his first three games were recently remade, currently Sony exclusive. Can't say I really feel Crash would make a worthwhile addition... at his best, he's a Sony character, at his worse, he's a meager attempt by Activision to make some quick cash off of nostalgia... either way, I feel there are much better options...

-Sora
The Kingdom Hearts kid? Isn't he owned by Disney though? I've gotta say no to this one... his game history looks a lot like Snake's; few games on Nintendo platforms, ALL games on Sony systems, and once again I must say there are better Squeenix characters and franchises that should get the spot first. ...also, your list has Sora posted twice...

-Rabbid
I'm not one to hate on the Rabbids, but like many other characters on this list, I feel there are better options... not much else I can say about them really, other than maybe adding a Rabbid over someone else, like say Rayman, would be like adding Toad over Mario.

-Banjo
Back in the old days, Banjo could have been regarded as an obvious addition... but those days are over; Banjo belongs to Microsoft now, we need to accept it. Until the day comes where Banjo makes a major return to Nintendo systems, I feel there's no reason to try and drag him out of Microsoft's dungeons for one last shot at Nintendo greatness.

-Bomberman
Remember when I talked about Konami and great alternatives to Snake? Bomberman is arguably the greatest option (although some will argue Simon Belmont is, but we're not talking about him this instant). The White Bomber and his crew have been pretty consistent on Nintendo platforms, most recently with Super Bomberman R on the Switch. Among obvious third party icons with a strong affinity for Nintendo, I feel Bomberman may be the top choice.

So there's your list, here's a few of mine.

-Shantae
So about those indie developers... I'm sure many would argue Shantae is the biggest and most iconic... certainly the oldest; indie developers weren't even a thing back then I think. Her genie powers and charm would certainly make for a colorful character.

-Shovel Knight
I agree he would be fun... but I can't help but feel it takes more than one game to build a strong enough legacy to justify a third-party character... even if that game was really great.

-Travis Touchdown
Full confession; I've never played a No More Heroes game. That said... he looks like he'd be crazy fun, and his franchise remains exclusive to Nintendo consoles (well, minus the first one, but that wasn't Suda 51's idea).

I like the idea of Sonic, Megaman and Pacman being "permanent" inclusions. All three are iconic gaming legends and are some of the most deserving of spots.

Bayonetta I think is a sure bet to return. The potential for cross promotion with all 3 Bayo games on the Switch makes it more probable than not.

Who would be your Square Enix rep? I must've posted Sora twice because I really want him!

Snake, Ryu, Cloud, and Crash all seem more like "Sony" characters than Nintendo characters. They have so little appearances on Nintendo consoles that I wouldn't want them to return at this point.

I think indie wise, it comes down to Shantae and Shovel Knight. I think at this point, Shovel Knight is much bigger than Shantae in terms of popularity. If it was one of the two, I would prefer Shantae, but expect Shovel Knight. Travis...yeah I don't know much about him either.

As far as Squeenix character options, the most obvious would be someone from Dragon Quest... the whole series, from 1-11 is playable on Nintendo consoles... plenty of spin-offs too. And it goes without saying that Japan absolutely loves it. I'm sure retro Squeenix fans would love Chrono from Chrono Trigger or Geno from Mario RPG... those games are certainly classics... but I don't know if that means they deserve a spot.

Not sure I'd really call Ryu a "Sony" character at this point... especially not when compared to Snake, Cloud or Crash, whose greatest games are definitely exclusive to Sony platforms... at least Capcom remembers to throw Nintendo a Street Fighter-shaped bone every once in a while...

I'd prefer Shantae over Shovel Knight too... going by character/franchise strengths Shantae has Shovel Knight soundly beat with both age seniority and four games to one... and if Shantae worked at all like I think she would, she'd definitely have Shovel Knight beat in terms of uniqueness as well. Overall she strikes me as the vastly superior option.

As for who is more popular, well, I'm just going to say I hate it when popularity is the deciding factor... yes, it should be considered, but if there are characters with greater strengths, they should come first, not the popular one. Popularity isn't a static figure; it's constantly changing, and a popular character now can easily become the has-been character later... but what a character is and what they can do? That can't decrease, it can only expand over time...

I forgot about DQ because I never played a game in that franchise. But that is actually a pretty obvious choice for a character. Do those games have a "main" character ala Link or something?

The reason I bought up popularity is the fact that in general, indie characters are already much less visible. If they were to put an indie in Smash, it would most likely be a "bigger" one. Given the fact that Shovel Knight has critical acclaim and an amiibo, it just seems like Nintendo would gravitate towards him.

I don't think Dragon Quest has a true main character... it's kind of a Final Fantasy or Fire Emblem situation with that series; every game is a unique story with unique characters, so picking one to add would require some thinking.

That said, while not at all a main character, the reoccurring minor enemy character Slime appears to be very iconic... it even stars in its own spin-off games. That said, among Dragon Quest enemies it appears to be on par with a Goomba... and unlike a Goomba, it doesn't even have legs...

I would love for Indies to get at least one Rep, since Indies are a big deal nowdays and they are doing super well on the Switch. ^^
IF we get indies, I'd see Shovel Knight, Shantae, Freddy, Yooka-Laylee, Isaac, etc, as some possible one, though if we'd just get one, which is more likely, I'd say Shovel Knight. He'd be sweet in Smash.

Also, I believe Snake sorta opened the floodgates for third parties, since he was the first one, no? Or maybe Sonic sneaking in made others more likely than if just Snake was in. Not sure. XD Either way, at first, I was reluctant to want third parties, but since it seems they are here to stay, then sure, let as many of them in as possible. Though just make sure to give us plenty of Nintendo ones first.

I think. Three old classics, and then two new big characters, and then Snake as the returning one. ^^ Though I'd hate to let go of Bayonetta. I do not personally care much for Ryu, I am not even good at him, despite playing as all characters, haha.

He is not a Icon in the same level as MegaMan or PacMan of course, but he has been on Nintendo consoles for longer than he was a Sony exclusive, and with N. Sane Trilogy selling close to 5 million already, it is clear he is still beloved, and with the game coming to Switch this year, it just feels like a good time. One cannot deny how big Crash was back in the day, and I think that, if Activision is fine with having him, now that he is actually big again to promose and such, and with that new Crash game extremely rumored, I just think Crash would have a good chance for Smash. Plus, I'd love to see him in. He'd fit in well. ^^

While I do not think Activision releasing games for Switch would be necessary for them to be allowed to have Crash in the game, as I think Crash is big enough for Nintendo/Sakurai to be happy to use, but at least it is all but confirmed that the N. Sane trilogy will release on Switch, and that is a fitting support. ^^

Also never played Overwatch, but I know Tracer is sorta the face of it, right? I wonder how likely she would be. I bet it'd be a big deal.

-No characters will be removed
The larger the roster, the harder it is to maintain balance and keep adding more characters to it... furthermore, some characters will inevitably loose their relevance and reason to be included; several of which have already hit that point... if they really want to keep expanding that roster into newer and bigger ways, they'll inevitably have to make room by cutting out the older and smaller characters.

-Wolf
Personally, I think they need to ax Falco and make room for Wolf. Which character is more important; one of three equally annoying sidekicks who is still clearly a clone, or the single arch-rival who shouldn't be limited to copying his rivals? Since I'm of the opinion that Snake won't return, I feel someone should take up his move set, and if any Nintendo character could do that, Wolf would probably be the one.

-Snake
Your logic here is quite ridiculous... the "he brings uniqueness and lots of non-Nintendo fans to Smash" reasoning could be applied to literally any third-party character that isn't Nintendo exclusive, and many of them have far greater value to Nintendo than Snake does. Furthermore, just because Bomberman saw success on the Switch means nothing in regards to the future of Metal Gear on Nintendo platforms... and even if they did decide to bring another Metal Gear to Nintendo, unless it's the whole back catalog of games, I don't see how one title would make a difference when there are all those other Metal Gear titles not on Nintendo systems...

-Spring-Man
As much as I hate to admit it, there IS some logic here... some really tragic, tiresome logic that holds down potentially great characters in favor of generic ones. Of course, they could pull a Robin and skip Spring-Man like they did Chrom for being too samey...

-Ridley
I really don't want to get into another debate over why a forty foot monstrosity should be cut down to a quarter of its size just to sate fandumb demands, so let's not talk about this one. I'm assuming by "recent events" you mean Metroid 2 remake and Metroid Prime 4 (I can't think of anything else)? Don't see how that improves his odds any more than every other Metroid game before it...

-Third Link
This one is almost as bad as your Snake logic... there is absolutely zero need for a third incarnation of Link. Seriously, how many Zelda characters or Nintendo characters or even third-party characters could fill the spot before yet another blonde elf boy with the Master Sword? This logic also works under the premise that BotW is still the relevant Zelda title and not the inevitable sequel...

-Pauline
What better female is there than the original female? Lots, that's for sure. They could make a creative move set for her? Plenty of characters you can apply that logic to. I love that they brought back Pauline in Odyssey, I really do... but this shouldn't mean she should get a free ticket to Smash...

-Crash
To quote my previous statement;

at best, he's a Sony character, at worse, he's not worth adding... either way, I feel there are much better options...

-Freddy Fazbear
You do remember that Five Nights has never appeared on a Nintendo system... like at all. Even Cloud has more going for him than that... seriously creepy weird thing...

I did make a reply, but I do not like arguments and such so I will edit it back later, but I wanted to say first, that i wish you'd say things a bit less 'insulting'.

Things like 'confused at how your mind works' and 'your logic is ridiculous' and such, just comes off as unecessarily mean for no reason. And takes literally all the fun out of talking about Smash for me.

I do not intend to argue about anything. But if you are gonna counter my partly wish-list, partly what I deem is likely, you can do it in a much more pleasant way.

Well I didn't take the time to mention in the opening post that I've been a "preachy, pushy perfectionist who comes off as a bit of a jerk" because it was a lie...

And as for me saying 'confused at how your mind works' and 'your logic is ridiculous' and such, perhaps they could have been worded nicer... but I still have to stand by the basic premise; I do not understand your logic at all. Your thoughts on Snake is a pretty good example:

1. Nah, I think he'd be important in Smash BECAUSE he has very little Nintendo representation. 2. He adds a lot to the game and will surely bring in a lot of non-Nintendo/Smash fans. 3. Plus, whatwith Nintendo being budies with Konami after how great Bomberman did, I am positive we'll see Metal Gear games come to the Switch.

1. How does the first line make any sense? How can having little Nintendo representation make a character important to Smash? Certainly it can't make him more important to Smash than a character with lots of Nintendo representation, can it?
2. You say Snake adds a lot to Smash... but can't that logic be applied to almost any unique character? And wouldn't literally any non-Nintendo character with a strong enough presence on a non-Nintendo platforms, starring in games that are played by gamers who don't own Nintendo systems, also potentially bring in a lot of non-Nintendo/Smash fans?
3. Assuming Nintendo and Konami are really great buddies now as you say, and assuming the success of Super Bomberman R does motivate Konami to bring more games to Switch (it's not like big Switch successes by Sega, Capcom and so on has them rushing to put every game they own on the system), what makes you so positive any of those games will be a Metal Gear game and not another Konami franchise? Why not any of one of their many other franchises?
And assuming we do see another Metal Gear game on a Nintendo platform, what if it's just one game? That certainly wouldn't even out the great and obvious disparity between the few Metal Gear games on Nintendo systems VS the many Metal Gear games on other systems.
And what if it's just a port? You know, like the one we got on the 3DS while the others guys got that game PLUS a compilation of most of the other... that certainly wasn't enough to bring Snake back to Smash 4.
And even then, why does any of this instantly mean Snake deserves to return? Why give the spot to Snake because "Konami decided to finally give us a Metal Gear game after years of nothing" when other characters such as Bomberman not only have a much longer, stronger history with Nintendo, but are also seeing success on Nintendo consoles right now? Or any other successful third party character from a franchise that has built a stronger connection to Nintendo than the one Snake has?

You say your list is partly wish-list, partly what you deem is likely... and yet, trying to figure out your rationale, I can find no reason to think your list is anything but pure fanboy wish-list, with little apparent logic beyond "I like that character, he is cool, so he should be added to Smash first" mixed with an odd sense of certainty in things that are, at best, a plausible maybe...

It is good you know you are 'pushy and preachy' cuz' then you should also know to try to not be that, hopefully. It is not fun to discuss Smash that way. And yeah, I can tell there is no point with us talking about any of this. having read some of the other things you have said about Smash, it is clear it will not result in anything good. It is much too different.

But I won't argue about it, so you do not have to respode to them, as it is clear there is no point. I also do not have time to reply to your page-long Snake post, especially since I know I heavily disagree, and it would lead to nothing.

So, yeah, anways. I am hoping we'll get some real Smash news soon so that there is more than only speculation to talk about.

In regards to your singleplayer ideas, I think that would be interesting. I really enjoyed subspace emissary, but I think they have too many characters to do it right now. So a return of adventure mode would be good enough I guess.

Break the targets is definitely something that should return. It was as popular as homerun challenge.

I hope, given that they already have a majority of the game developed/ready to be ported, they can greatly expand singleplayer.

Thank you. ^^ And yeah, while something similar to Subspace Emissary is very doable, having cutscenes for all those characters like in Brawl is probably not something they wanna spend time on. But yeah, a Adventure Mode upgraded would be amazing instead.
Break the Targets as well. They do not have to be pretty or super complicated, but some simple layouts that makes you have to use that character's unique abilities a bit, would be very fun with such a big roster.

I do not actually expect a big new Single Player Mode, honestly, but I'd still love to see it. I think most of the focus will be on getting in new characters. I do not think anyone will be cut from the Wii-U version, licence issues with third parties aside, and I expect between 5.10 total new characters. Which makes the roster gigantic, but yeah, since they have the game finished, I think enough focus can go on balancing new fighters.

I am also trying to, just for fun, make a proper moveset for Freddy Fazbear just because he'd be hilarious in the game, but I have no idea what kind of Final Smash he'd have.

I am probably not going to expect a new Single Player Mode either....but it would be a good surprise! If MK8D got a proper battle mode, we can hope!

If the game is a port of 4, I don't think they will cut anyone, but if it is 5, I am anticipating some cuts.

I never played 5 Nights, so I couldn't tell you what a good final smash would be. Maybe whoever gets caught by it is surrounded by four doors, you get the opportunity to choose which door to come out of and the player caught in it gets to pick which door to shine a flashlight on. Guess right, you escape, guess wrong you get KOed.

Yeah, I was thinking about Mario Kart getting some nice content, and I think that they'd wanna make even more content for a new Smash release. Smash 5 or a port, I do think it will be fully built on the Wii-U version, so IF that is the case, I am not sure I expect any non-third party cuts, since it'd be wasteful to remove finished, functional characters. Unless they just REALLY wanna stop promoting someone.

That is actually a very cool and unique idea for a Final Smash, Blade. Thank you, I'll use it. XD

I'm happy that the development team can focus on one console with this next game. I really hope it is Smash 5 and not a port of the WiiU game. They can start with that game for the groundwork, but idk how I would feel with just another port like MK8.

Also, anyone saying Jigglypuff will be cut doesn't realize you cannot cut an original 12 character that has been there every single game! It's not going to happen and I'm willing to bet on that. Also, Mewtwo is like top 5 most popular Pokemon, but since he has been cut before I guess that is possible.

As far as characters I want added. Yes, Inkling is basically guaranteed. Scizor (Pokemon) is one I always wanted added, but that wouln't happen now if it didn't happen with Melee. Another one I have always wanted was Goku, but I don't believe he is eligible based on Sakurai's comment before saying they had to originate from a video game. Although, he is well represented on almost all Nintendo consoles.

While most things are not set in stone, yeah, I agree that none of the original 12 will be cut, especially not if the next game is built upon Smash for Wii-U, which is almost certanly gonna happen, for better or worse. ^^ Plus, Jigglypuff is still a very popupar Pokémon.

I have often said I beleive Decidueye may be a new character in the next one as well, but since Gen 8 may be very close already, it would not surprise me if Sakurai (assuming he is involved) would have gotten to see a brand new one and make it playable instead, ala Greninja.

Inklings, yeah, I doubt a Smash could go without a whole load of Splatoon content from now on. Splatoon in Smash is sure to make it a even more gigantic deal in Japan than ever before. ^^
If Inklings becomes a character, which will happen, and if they have 8 alts like all other characters, I can see two Inling Girls, two Inkling Boys, Callie, Marie, Pearl and Marina all being in the same character spot, as skins. I am sure they'd go the extra mile for Splatoon with that, and if all Koopalings even got that much attention, then Splatoon sure can. It would be awesome.

What if they made Splatoon have two character slots. One slot would be 4 inkling girls and 4 inkling boys. The second slot would be like the ice climbers in that it would be Marie and Callie with 4 skins and Pearl and Marina with 4 skins.

That is a interesting idea. The more Splatoon characters (as in, slots, with different movesets) the better. It it certanly important enough for more than just one moveset. ^^ Though I doubt they would do a Ice-Climbers with the News Duos, it'd be cool. What would they be called, tho? Just have it 'Callie & Marie' and then change it to 'Pearl & Marina' when you select that? I guess that isn't really a problem, but still. ^^

Would be cool, tho. And random prediction, speaking of Ice Climbers, I feel that, if they do return (they will), then I feel they may change them so that Nana and Popo cannot seperate. Like, that they are still two, next to eachother, but they are part in the same movement, and cannot actually split up in any way. I am not sure why, but I feel that is a change Sakurai would do to more easily balance them.

I don't really see the point... more so, I don't see the point of pairing them up like Ice Climbers... furthermore, isn't Pearl noticeably smaller than Marina (and Callie and Marie for that matter)? Unless she goes through an unexplained growth-spurt, matching Pearl to the other characters' dimensions won't work, which means she can't be a skin for the other characters.

They'd have to give her like two inches I guess. Or they could just slightly lower the hitboxes. I'm sure they could make a small adjustment like they did for Ludwig and Bowser Jr.

Also, do you mean you don't see the point in the character? I was just thinking that Splatoon is a mega-franchise in Japan. As we've seen from FE, games that are big in Japan get a lot of representation.

That looks like more than two inches to me... more like half a head... there's a noticeable difference in height there... and by 'lowering the hitbox' do you mean for all characters, or just the one costume?

And I don't see the point in putting in two Splatoon characters... people complain about there being too many Fire Emblem swordsmen, at least there's some obvious differences ... but how different can two squids armed with a menagerie of squirt guns get? Sure, you can swap one set of guns for another... but after that?

I'm positive that if Sakurai can make so many movesets for people with swords across all of the many franchises (Link, FE, Shulk, Cloud, etc.) he could handle making unique movesets based around the numerous different types of weapons available in Splatoon. They have a ton of different movesets in Splatoon, and while sure you can boil it down into all of them shooting ink, you could say the same about swords all being used to cut.

Also, anyone saying Jigglypuff will be cut doesn't realize you cannot cut an original 12 character that has been there every single game!

Oh we realize that's what some people think, believe me. It's just that that sort of logic (assuming you can call it logic) is completely asinine... especially for a character who, from the looks of it, has literally no other reason to be in smash. If 'tradition' is the only reason you keep doing something, then why keep doing it? Especially when the alternative is arguably superior?

Scizor... don't know. As far as Pokemon characters are concerned, the only necessary ones to me would be Pikachu, Mewtwo and Lucario... after that, it's sort of like 'this one is cool, but this one is unique, but this one would be interesting..." lots of thought, no certainty. Doesn't strike me as the most unique or interesting character... but those claw moves in Pokken sure look neat.

Goku would be an... interesting addition to say the least. One that I have imagined in Smash more than once. That said, there's likely a good reason non-gaming characters aren't eligible. Besides the obvious licensing headaches, the effects of adding a non-gaming character could be catastrophic... I mean, Cloud set a bad enough precedence (suddenly, any third-party character with even the smallest appearance on a Nintendo system is apparently a viable candidate it seems), but adding Goku... that's less 'opening a floodgate' and more 'GIANT ASTEROID IMPACT' type situation; I mean, every fan list would be filled with manga and comic book characters for starters... people might suddenly assume every non-gaming character in existence can be in Smash... where would it end? Sticking to gaming characters sets a well defined boundary... it's just the sensible thing to do.

I don't think Pearl being a shortie would matter much. Alph also looks a bit wonky with Olimar's body, and while Sakurai is detailed about things like this, IF they decided to make the hosts into alts, I dobut they'd let Pearl's slightly shorter stature be in the way. They'd probably make her the other's height. No one would really notice anyways.

I do not think they'll have any pair-ups aside from Ice Climbers, and I believe more in the Inklings just all being skins of eachother, IF they decide to have playable hosts.

Anyways, when Inklings are included, I hope they use as many of the Splatoon weapons as possible. I will assume their neutral standard attack will be like MegaMan's, with them shooting with the Splattershot. Dash Attack being a Roller. Forward Smash, maybe a short-ranged but very strong Luna Blaster. Up Smash, Splatling. I could see the Down Smash being a bit unique, with them using a Charger instead, rather than doing the standard 'hit both sides' like most others do.
I believe their Specials will be mostly the Sub Weapons, while all normal weapons are used in various normal attacks. No idea what to pick for a Final Smash, tho.

Not sure I like the idea of them whipping out different blasters to perform different basic moves when they all have the same basic function... sounds pointless to me; why animate a bunch of weapons, each for one attack, when a simple Splattershot can perform the exact same function for all moves? Plus, I think it would stick closer to character, what with players unable to swap weapons in the midst of battle. My idea was to give them a Splattershot for basic attacks, and sub-weapons for Smashes, like the Sprinkler for Down Smash.

I do think they should use different weapons for their specials however; a Sniper for B, a Roller for Side B (press to launch ink, hold to roll and run)... they'd use the Squid Jump for Up B... don't know about Down B, but I'd love for them to sneak the Splatling in there somewhere.

As for Final, I always thought the rocket from Splatoon would be awesome. You know, the one where you launch a rocket and it becomes a giant ink cyclone... yeah, that would be pretty good.

Eh, I feel that would be pretty boring, and I don't see why they'd stick with all/most moves being the same Splattershot in different directions. I think normal weapons for normal moves and Sub weapons for Specials sounds much more interesting. Like how MegaMan uses loads of different Robot Master powers for all of his moves. Splattershot for most normal moves and Smashes would be unimaginative. I'd rather they show off more different weapons. Like how Snake uses actual weapons for specific Smash attacks, for example.

Standard Special: Splat Bomb, working basically like in Splatoon, timer for explosion that only starts when the Bomb touches the ground.

Side Special: Curling Bomb, also working just like in Splatoon, bouncing off surfaces and Enemies and does bigger damage if it blows up on them (of course).

Down Special: Sprinkler. Doesn't cause any flinching or knockback but creates a small area that does continued damage on enemies near enough. Can easily be destroyed.

Up Special: Beacon. I feel Beacons would be the only Sub to work well for a Recovery, and I kinda like it. You have to place one somewhere, and if you are knocked off-stage, you can use Up Special again to launch there. A non-damage special, but it gets you back quickly, but it DOES requre you to plan first and place one, and make sure no one destroys it. So it is a great recovery that can be tricky to use, but I think it is a very unique idea.

Final Smash: Inkstrike could work, but most of the Specials could work, really, so I am not sure which one would be the most unique or fun to use. I think InkJet might be the most fun. You can fly and move and have to aim and shoot. I think I'll go with that one.

I am sure it could be balanced somehow, haha. I just want the Beacon to be a part of their moveset, since it'd be very unique. How about this, then. Your Up Special is always a Super Jump, but it is not a great Recovery, like, it doesn't take you THAT far. But if you have planted a Beacon before you use it, you will fly to it as a much better recovery. That way, the Inkling still has a recovery, but it can be used much better with the Beacon. ^^

I didn't go with Inkstrike mostly because I am used to those things being 'gone' now, and I'd assume Splatoon 2 to be the main focus for most items and designs. Inklings have so many potentional 'super moves' it is hard to know what would he best. I just think flying as a slower Inkjet, with aiming, and a constant exhoust downwards to prevent others from running underneath, would be more involving than a 'press and destruction occurs' Final Smash like so many are. I like the ones where you have to do more than just aim one single super attack.

My ideas for smashes are basically the same idea you have for specials... the reason I put them at smashes is because 1. they're super simple; all you do is toss them. Compared to using weapons like Chargers which can be aimed while charging, or rollers which have multi-purpose abilities depending on how and when they are used, sub-weapons like sprinklers and bombs aren't at all complex making them perfect for basic attacks and 2., I didn't want all the basic abilities to just be 'pull out a gun and shoot' so this adds variety beyond adding a bunch of reskinned blasters.

I'm going to stick with Super Jump as the recover... not only does your idea sound situational (what if you put it under a solid platform? Or what if you haven't dropped one yet?) but Super Jump is an innate ability all Inklings have regardless of weaponry that everyone uses. And I'm going to stick with Inkstrike too... giant column of cyclonic ink that bypasses terrain and covers a huge area VS Diddy Kong ripoff? The former is a lot more appealing than the latter if you ask me... more unique too I think.

Finally, one idea I would consider for all characters is a power meter function, similar to Little Mac's... in the case of Inklings, my choice was the Inkzooka.