I didn't say that something that is perpetual "can't" last forever, Molly.

But the word, in and of itself, does not DEMAND that meaning.

No it doesn't demand that meaning, It is the first meaning given but it doesn't demand it. I agree. Context, along with other scripture, is important.

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Likewise, if something is said to be "perpetual" within the realm "of the ages" then it (too) CANNOT be "without end" as it WILL END when the ages come to an END.

Do you disagree?

I'm not convinced that the ages come to an end. Do you think they do? What happens to Jesus when they come to an end? What happens to me? Where does it say the ages come to an end?

You talk about the Son handing the kingdom to the Father as though that is the end of the reign of Jesus but these verses in Revelation tell us he will reign for ever and ever--and I take that in that context to be eternity. He shall reign for ever and ever.

Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

--Rev 5

Is that ever going to end? unto him that sitteth upon the throne and unto the Lamb for ever and ever...

Where is the Lamb?

Revelation 7:17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: ...

He is in "the midst of the throne"--in the holy of Holies [the midst of the temple]--He is the very heart of God...

And I understand, that is why I have asked for more information about why perpetuity is not a valid definition.

I'll assume that "perpetuity" means "eternity" since that is the primary definition given in Merriam Webster and the only definition given that works in scripture.

One reason that "eternity" is not a valid definition for aion is that no where in scripture does the word aion impart the meaning "eternity". At most a whole phrase ("to the ages of the ages") imparts that meaning. And it is debatable as to whether the whole phrase does that.

A second reason is that "age" works everywhere aion works and "age" certainly does not mean "eternity".

Age does work everywhere aion is used no argument there, it is actually one of the things that got me out of the mindset that aionios only means everlasting.

But in terms of the extension of the word to perpetuity, that word does not only have one definition either and I think that is where some difficulty lies in these discussions. I have no reason to limit my argument to one definition of any word, because as far as I know, there is more than one meaning.

But, despite opinions and case building, scholars and theologians continue to translate with definitions that the lay people decide is wrong.

Maybe that doesn't mean anything.

As I was researching the word Olam I found a website (and I can find the link if needed) and sent a contact e-mail over the translation of that word to everlasting. The person responded and said that they didn't really like how the "abstract" ancient Greek terms everlasting or forever and ever were applied to the old testament.

This really got me thinking about the Ancient Greek text. Prior to that I was in a lot of back and forth discussion that never went anywhere as each of us leveraged for the correct definition of the words.

I understand your concern over what people will come to conclude. But since I have seen the word Aion in the absolute (age / ages) and the abstract (as long as required / seemingly forever / perception) then I have actually gotten somewhere in discussion with people and they either had to call me a name, or consider what I have said.

In that respect, aionios in the abstract actually does not take on a greater meaning than aion in the abstract.

All I can say is this has opened more doors than it has closed not much else I can offer on the subject.

Chris

No it doesn't demand that meaning, It is the first meaning given but it doesn't demand it. I agree. Context, along with other scripture, is important.

Agreed!

Quote from: Molly

I'm not convinced that the ages come to an end. Do you think they do?

I answered some of these questions already, I think in my post to Paul, but yes I do believe that the ages come to an end and I believe that they do because the scriptures speak about "the end of the ages". They also speak about the promised made "pro chronos aionios" (before times eonian).

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What happens to Jesus when they come to an end?

He is subject to the Father, just as we all are.

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What happens to me?

You continue to live in the kingdom of God, why would that change just because the kingdom is turned over to the Father?

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Where does it say the ages come to an end?

I've already posted some of the verses. Are you saying that you don't know of any passage of scripture that speaks about the end of the ages? Of the promises that were made "before the world began"? Indicating that the world (ages) has both a beginning and an end?

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You talk about the Son handing the kingdom to the Father as though that is the end of the reign of Jesus but these verses in Revelation tell us he will reign for ever and ever--and I take that in that context to be eternity. He shall reign for ever and ever.

Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

--Rev 5

Is that ever going to end? unto him that sitteth upon the throne and unto the Lamb for ever and ever...

Where is the Lamb?

Revelation 7:17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: ...

He is in "the midst of the throne"--in the holy of Holies [the midst of the temple]--He is the very heart of God...

...for his mercy endureth for ever.

--1 Chron 16:34

You keep claiming that Christ reigns "forever" and have yet to explain how you reconcile that with the passage in 1 Cor that says that he reigns UNTIL the last enemy is destroyed, at which point He turns the kingdom over to the Father.

My view can be supported with ALL of the passages in question, how is yours?

« Last Edit: January 09, 2010, 11:11:17 PM by Chris »

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Paul Hazelwood

Well, certainly, they saw that whatever 'age' they were presently in was going to come to an end and be followed by other 'ages' (plural, so not just one long age), right? And don't the scriptures also talk about "the end of the ages" and aren't the "ages" connected to "time", having been "created"?

Honestly, I have been looking, what scripture talks about the end of ages in the plural I can't seem to find it?

Logged

Paul Hazelwood

I've already posted some of the verses. Are you saying that you don't know of any passage of scripture that speaks about the end of the ages? Of the promises that were made "before the world began"? Indicating that the world (ages) has both a beginning and an end?

Scripture also talks about a new heaven and a new earth, so if the biblical references to end of the ages is about this earth, then the end of ages concerning this earth contextually does not inherently mean the end of ALL ages in the absolute sense.

You keep claiming that Christ reigns "forever" and have yet to explain how you reconcile that with the passage in 1 Cor that says that he reigns UNTIL the last enemy is destroyed, at which point He turns the kingdom over to the Father.

My view can be supported with ALL of the passages in question, how is yours?

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

--Rev19

Psalm 24:8Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.

Psalm 24:10Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

---phil 2

Philippians 2:11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Revelation 11:15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. <-----1Cor 15

Logged

Paul Hazelwood

Revelation 11:15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. <-----1Cor 15

From the CLVRe 11:15 And the seventh messenger trumpets. And loud voices occurred~ in *heaven, saying, "The kingdom of *this world became~ our *Lord's and His *Christ's, and He shall be reigning intofor the eons of the eons! Amen!"

This passage still uses eons to imply a perpetually endless nature of things. This is about God reigning. Christ reign of this kingdom does end, but that is not "the end".

Revelation 11:15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. <-----1Cor 15

From the CLVRe 11:15 And the seventh messenger trumpets. And loud voices occurred~ in *heaven, saying, "The kingdom of *this world became~ our *Lord's and His *Christ's, and He shall be reigning intofor the eons of the eons! Amen!"

This passage still uses eons to imply a perpetually endless nature of things. This is about God reigning. Christ reign of this kingdom does end, but that is not "the end".

About God reigning, yes. But who is 'our Lord' in this passage? And who is his Christ in this passage?

And when does this happen? Who is this talking about in the scripture below: ?

Revelation 22:5And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.<----Last chapter of the last book of the Bible.

And knowing that Christ reigns UNTIL the last enemy is destroyed and the kingdom is turned over to the Father, doesn't make you at least CONSIDER that "forever and ever" is actually "to the age of the ages" and NOT "forever and ever"?

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16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

--Rev19

And how does what I have said change the fact that Christ is KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS?

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Psalm 24:8Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.

Psalm 24:10Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

---phil 2

Philippians 2:11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

How does even one thing that I have said change ANY of that?

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Revelation 11:15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. <-----1Cor 15

Now can you DEMONSTRATE how "forever and ever" in Rev 11:15 (or any of the other passage that can also be translated "to the age of the ages" or "to the ages of the ages") RECONCILES WITH the fact that Paul said that "Christ must reign UNTIL...."

if Paul understood that Christ would reign "forever and ever"?

If THE SON (to whom all things were made subject) turns the kingdom (and all things given unto him) back over to THE FATHER (who subjected them to Christ in the first place) then why claim that Christ reigns "forever"?

Does the KING who turns His kingdom over to someone GREATER still reign over His kingdom?

Well, certainly, they saw that whatever 'age' they were presently in was going to come to an end and be followed by other 'ages' (plural, so not just one long age), right? And don't the scriptures also talk about "the end of the ages" and aren't the "ages" connected to "time", having been "created"?

Honestly, I have been looking, what scripture talks about the end of ages in the plural I can't seem to find it?

I thought I already posted some examples. I'll go back and look and if not I will.

I've already posted some of the verses. Are you saying that you don't know of any passage of scripture that speaks about the end of the ages? Of the promises that were made "before the world began"? Indicating that the world (ages) has both a beginning and an end?

Scripture also talks about a new heaven and a new earth, so if the biblical references to end of the ages is about this earth, then the end of ages concerning this earth contextually does not inherently mean the end of ALL ages in the absolute sense.

I don't believe that the new heaven and the new earth have anything at all to do with this physical world that we live in now - or any other.

I believe "the heavens" and "the earth" are PEOPLE

And the "new heavens" and the "new earth" (in which there is "no more sea") already exist...

.... even "the third heaven" (in which not even "the earth" is mentioned).

Logged

Paul Hazelwood

And knowing that Christ reigns UNTIL the last enemy is destroyed and the kingdom is turned over to the Father, doesn't make you at least CONSIDER that "forever and ever" is actually "to the age of the ages" and NOT "forever and ever"?

The problem here what I have been talking about. Indeed, even if Molly disagrees, we can see that Christs reign over this kingdom ends, however the same words are used in another verse to show that God also reigns into the eons of eons. There is no use of a word that implies a limited duration in that context.

If THE SON (to whom all things were made subject) turns the kingdom (and all things given unto him) back over to THE FATHER (who subjected them to Christ in the first place) then why you assume that Christ reigns "forever"?

Does the KING who turns His kingdom over to someone GREATER still reign over His kingdom?

It all depends on who you think Jesus is, who you think the Lord is, who you think the Son is, who you think the Father is, and who you think 'his Christ' is.

God has many different names in the Old Testament to describe how he relates to us, but Y'shua is above every name.

20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

--Eph 1

Philippians 2:9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Revelation 11:15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. <-----1Cor 15

From the CLVRe 11:15 And the seventh messenger trumpets. And loud voices occurred~ in *heaven, saying, "The kingdom of *this world became~ our *Lord's and His *Christ's, and He shall be reigning intofor the eons of the eons! Amen!"

This passage still uses eons to imply a perpetually endless nature of things. This is about God reigning. Christ reign of this kingdom does end, but that is not "the end".

About God reigning, yes. But who is 'our Lord' in this passage? And who is his Christ in this passage?

And when does this happen? Who is this talking about in the scripture below: ?

Revelation 22:5And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.<----Last chapter of the last book of the Bible.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Do you believe that because the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ comes "at the end" of the Bible that that makes it "the end" of the story?

Obviously, Christ is still sitting on the throne with the Father, in this passage, so does this take place before or after Christ turns the kingdom over to the Father?

Can it be that what Paul says to the Corinthians goes even further than the book of Revelation?

And knowing that Christ reigns UNTIL the last enemy is destroyed and the kingdom is turned over to the Father, doesn't make you at least CONSIDER that "forever and ever" is actually "to the age of the ages" and NOT "forever and ever"?

The problem here what I have been talking about. Indeed, even if Molly disagrees, we can see that Christs reign over this kingdom ends, however the same words are used in another verse to show that God also reigns into the eons of eons. There is no use of a word that implies a limited duration in that context.

And knowing that Christ reigns UNTIL the last enemy is destroyed and the kingdom is turned over to the Father, doesn't make you at least CONSIDER that "forever and ever" is actually "to the age of the ages" and NOT "forever and ever"?

The problem here what I have been talking about. Indeed, even if Molly disagrees, we can see that Christs reign over this kingdom ends, however the same words are used in another verse to show that God also reigns into the eons of eons. There is no use of a word that implies a limited duration in that context.

Can you give the verse, please?

Re 11:15 And the seventh messenger trumpets. And loud voices occurred~ in *heaven, saying, "The kingdom of *this world became~ our *Lord's and His *Christ's, and He shall be reigning intofor the eons of the eons! Amen!"

Obviously, Christ is still sitting on the throne with the Father, in this passage, so does this take place before or after Christ turns the kingdom over to the Father?

I would say after, myself, because of how I see God and Jesus. But I will agree that the last page of the book doesn't necessarily have to be the end--although that would be highly unusual and a bit of a trick 'ending.'

I've already posted some of the verses. Are you saying that you don't know of any passage of scripture that speaks about the end of the ages? Of the promises that were made "before the world began"? Indicating that the world (ages) has both a beginning and an end?

Scripture also talks about a new heaven and a new earth, so if the biblical references to end of the ages is about this earth, then the end of ages concerning this earth contextually does not inherently mean the end of ALL ages in the absolute sense.

I don't believe that the new heaven and the new earth have anything at all to do with this physical world that we live in now - or any other.

I believe "the heavens" and "the earth" are PEOPLE

And the "new heavens" and the "new earth" (in which there is "no more sea") already exist...

.... even "the third heaven" (in which not even "the earth" is mentioned).

I certainly see where you are coming from, but even if they are spiritual, even if they already exist the reference is to "more". Even if time is created, God being eternal can still create time at any time and there is absolutely nothing to suggest there is ever an ending in the absolute sense to God and creating realms and time. The bible depicts a certain realm and in the span of what we might be able to comprehend about eternity I am not seeing that there is any implication that God doing stuff ever ends.

Logged

Chris

If THE SON (to whom all things were made subject) turns the kingdom (and all things given unto him) back over to THE FATHER (who subjected them to Christ in the first place) then why you assume that Christ reigns "forever"?

Does the KING who turns His kingdom over to someone GREATER still reign over His kingdom?

It all depends on who you think Jesus is, who you think the Lord is, who you think the Son is, who you think the Father is, and who you think 'his Christ' is.

God has many different names in the Old Testament to describe how he relates to us, but Y'shua is above every name.

20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

--Eph 1

Philippians 2:9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Once again, I have to ask, how is any of that impacted by what I have said?

Clearly, all things were subject to Christ (with the exception of the Father, who subjected all things to Him); all things were put into His hands, but not "forever", as all of those same things are put back into the hands of the Father, making ALL things (including Christ) subject TO THE FATHER, that God may be "all in all".

Does that somehow mean that now the name of Christ is not "above all names"? That suddenly Christ is not "King of kings and Lord of Lords"? That Christ is longer Christ? The Anointed? The Elect of God? The redeemer of mankind? The mediator between man and God? And THE ONE through whom RECONCILIATION was made?

And knowing that Christ reigns UNTIL the last enemy is destroyed and the kingdom is turned over to the Father, doesn't make you at least CONSIDER that "forever and ever" is actually "to the age of the ages" and NOT "forever and ever"?

The problem here what I have been talking about. Indeed, even if Molly disagrees, we can see that Christs reign over this kingdom ends, however the same words are used in another verse to show that God also reigns into the eons of eons. There is no use of a word that implies a limited duration in that context.

Can you give the verse, please?

Re 11:15 And the seventh messenger trumpets. And loud voices occurred~ in *heaven, saying, "The kingdom of *this world became~ our *Lord's and His *Christ's, and He shall be reigning intofor the eons of the eons! Amen!"

And knowing that Christ reigns UNTIL the last enemy is destroyed and the kingdom is turned over to the Father, doesn't make you at least CONSIDER that "forever and ever" is actually "to the age of the ages" and NOT "forever and ever"?

The problem here what I have been talking about. Indeed, even if Molly disagrees, we can see that Christs reign over this kingdom ends, however the same words are used in another verse to show that God also reigns into the eons of eons. There is no use of a word that implies a limited duration in that context.

Can you give the verse, please?

Re 11:15 And the seventh messenger trumpets. And loud voices occurred~ in *heaven, saying, "The kingdom of *this world became~ our *Lord's and His *Christ's, and He shall be reigning intofor the eons of the eons! Amen!"

Chris

Obviously, Christ is still sitting on the throne with the Father, in this passage, so does this take place before or after Christ turns the kingdom over to the Father?

I would say after, myself, because of how I see God and Jesus. But I will agree that the last page of the book doesn't necessarily have to be the end--although that would be highly unusual and a bit of a trick 'ending.'

Why?

Seems to me that that particular book was placed "at the end" of the Bible because of the nature of the book, it being very different to any of the other books of the NT. Where else would it "fit"?

The revelation of Jesus Christ took place 2000 years ago. How do we (the readers) "keep the sayings of the book" if they do not even apply to us because they only apply to those who are alive when Christ returns?

As I understand the book, those things are already taking place.... is, was and will be.... according to spiritual truths.

If that were not so then why would it say:

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

I've already posted some of the verses. Are you saying that you don't know of any passage of scripture that speaks about the end of the ages? Of the promises that were made "before the world began"? Indicating that the world (ages) has both a beginning and an end?

Scripture also talks about a new heaven and a new earth, so if the biblical references to end of the ages is about this earth, then the end of ages concerning this earth contextually does not inherently mean the end of ALL ages in the absolute sense.

I don't believe that the new heaven and the new earth have anything at all to do with this physical world that we live in now - or any other.

I believe "the heavens" and "the earth" are PEOPLE

And the "new heavens" and the "new earth" (in which there is "no more sea") already exist...

.... even "the third heaven" (in which not even "the earth" is mentioned).

I certainly see where you are coming from, but even if they are spiritual, even if they already exist the reference is to "more". Even if time is created, God being eternal can still create time at any time and there is absolutely nothing to suggest there is ever an ending in the absolute sense to God and creating realms and time. The bible depicts a certain realm and in the span of what we might be able to comprehend about eternity I am not seeing that there is any implication that God doing stuff ever ends.

I have no idea what happens "in eternity". We are not told; I don't think that we are even given the slightest clue - apart from being with the Lord.

But the scriptures are written for "us", right? To those who are here in "this" world, that we might understand the gospel as it applies to us and the times (ages, if you will) that we live in? No?

What God has in store for us beyond this world, I do not know. So how can I apply what is written for us "now" in "this" world to that which is beyond it? Why would we be expected to?

I've already posted some of the verses. Are you saying that you don't know of any passage of scripture that speaks about the end of the ages? Of the promises that were made "before the world began"? Indicating that the world (ages) has both a beginning and an end?

Scripture also talks about a new heaven and a new earth, so if the biblical references to end of the ages is about this earth, then the end of ages concerning this earth contextually does not inherently mean the end of ALL ages in the absolute sense.

I don't believe that the new heaven and the new earth have anything at all to do with this physical world that we live in now - or any other.

I believe "the heavens" and "the earth" are PEOPLE

And the "new heavens" and the "new earth" (in which there is "no more sea") already exist...

.... even "the third heaven" (in which not even "the earth" is mentioned).

I certainly see where you are coming from, but even if they are spiritual, even if they already exist the reference is to "more". Even if time is created, God being eternal can still create time at any time and there is absolutely nothing to suggest there is ever an ending in the absolute sense to God and creating realms and time. The bible depicts a certain realm and in the span of what we might be able to comprehend about eternity I am not seeing that there is any implication that God doing stuff ever ends.

I have no idea what happens "in eternity". We are not told; I don't think that we are even given the slightest clue - apart from being with the Lord.

But the scriptures are written for "us", right? To those who are here in "this" world, that we might understand the gospel as it applies to us and the times (ages, if you will) that we live in? No?

What God has in store for us beyond this world, I do not know. So how can I apply what is written for us "now" in "this" world to that which is beyond it? Why would we be expected to?

All I am conveying is what I am seeing concerning the subject of this thread, I haven't expected you to do anything.

And knowing that Christ reigns UNTIL the last enemy is destroyed and the kingdom is turned over to the Father, doesn't make you at least CONSIDER that "forever and ever" is actually "to the age of the ages" and NOT "forever and ever"?

The problem here what I have been talking about. Indeed, even if Molly disagrees, we can see that Christs reign over this kingdom ends, however the same words are used in another verse to show that God also reigns into the eons of eons. There is no use of a word that implies a limited duration in that context.

Can you give the verse, please?

Re 11:15 And the seventh messenger trumpets. And loud voices occurred~ in *heaven, saying, "The kingdom of *this world became~ our *Lord's and His *Christ's, and He shall be reigning intofor the eons of the eons! Amen!"