As has already been remarked, in this argument, the god GIVES the purpose to the individual concerned, so therefore whatever purpose that person has is the god's purpose, not theirs. What they are saying is that they are quite happy to accept the purpose given by another being as the meaning for their lives.

I guess some people just can't see the BIGGER picture.

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Hope this day finds you doing well... prepare yourself so you can be a rainbow in somebody else's cloud. Somebody who may not look like you. May not call God the same name you call God - if they call God at all. I may not dance your dances or speak your language. But be a blessing to somebody. Maya

Because your point has been that meaning must be eternal to be relevant - a temporary meaning, you have implied, is meaningless.

If what we do here is "get to heaven" purposed, then once we are IN heaven, that meaning is completed. It is therefore only temporary, and therefore meaningless, surely? Or are you agreeing that some actions can have a meaning and purpose that is time-limited?

No, Anfauglir, because the effects of that meaning - the reward for it - would be eternal. So at least he's consistent on that score.

As has already been remarked, in this argument, the god GIVES the purpose to the individual concerned, so therefore whatever purpose that person has is the god's purpose, not theirs. What they are saying is that they are quite happy to accept the purpose given by another being as the meaning for their lives.

I guess some people just can't see the BIGGER picture.

Not true, JB. We can imagine all kinds of things. It is just that some of us are not willing to base our lives on stuff that we have no evidence for. Different cultures have their stories about magical forces, gods, why human beings are here and what happens after we die. Every person who believes in this kind of stuff seems to have a different interpretation of how it all works. And every interpretation breaks down when held up against the real world.

Some interpretations are really fun, beautiful and appealing-- like your viewpoint that the universe is run by a kind, loving god, or the idea that we should all worship color. Some interpretations are really horrible and repellent-- like the idea that some people are destined to be punished forever because of where they were born and how they were raised. Or any interpretation that says you have to kill people who disagree with you. And some are clearly just made up to get money from gullible people-- like Scientology and the Moonies.

What they all have in common is no evidence that any of them are true. Most of us here are willing to consider any picture you want to show us, if you can demonstrate that it exists somewhere other than your imagination.

Junebug72,as per your PM request, I've come with the reason I smote you on the first page of this thread. The reason was this last sentence:

"I see no coincidences here at all these are things that could only be accomplished by a brilliant, compassionate and loving Creator/ the force that holds it all together"

I cited that this is an Argument from Ignorance.1) First of all, I am not a wuss. 2) Stating that "smites don't mean jack" to you lose some credibility when you PM me on the subject...twice.3) Stating something is an "argument from Ignorance" doesn't mean I'm saying your statement is ignorant. I'm saying you committed the logical fallacy.4) You might want to look up some of the logical fallacies so as to avoid committing them. I welcome you to start here:

Your stating that "things could only be accomplished by a...Creator" is functionally the same as saying that you cannot imagine how they could be accomplished without one. Said another way, "I don't know, therefore god". That is what you did above. And that is why I smote you.

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It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today. I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.~jdawg70

As has already been remarked, in this argument, the god GIVES the purpose to the individual concerned, so therefore whatever purpose that person has is the god's purpose, not theirs. What they are saying is that they are quite happy to accept the purpose given by another being as the meaning for their lives.

I guess some people just can't see the BIGGER picture.

This is what people say when the little things don't add up. It's like saying, "yeah, I know it doesn't add up when you look at it critically, but if you just ignore those details, it works!"

This line of thinking doesn't fly here.

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Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Junebug72,as per your PM request, I've come with the reason I smote you on the first page of this thread. The reason was this last sentence:

"I see no coincidences here at all these are things that could only be accomplished by a brilliant, compassionate and loving Creator/ the force that holds it all together"

I cited that this is an Argument from Ignorance.1) First of all, I am not a wuss. 2) Stating that "smites don't mean jack" to you lose some credibility when you PM me on the subject...twice.3) Stating something is an "argument from Ignorance" doesn't mean I'm saying your statement is ignorant. I'm saying you committed the logical fallacy.4) You might want to look up some of the logical fallacies so as to avoid committing them. I welcome you to start here:

Your stating that "things could only be accomplished by a...Creator" is functionally the same as saying that you cannot imagine how they could be accomplished without one. Said another way, "I don't know, therefore god". That is what you did above. And that is why I smote you.

I pm'ed you so I could defend myself against your claim. How do you know if this statement is ignorant. You are not the source of all knowledge. It is a fact that I do not see our longevity in the cosmos a coincidence. I don't find any of it a coincidence seems more like an extraordinary well thought out plan. Now you can disagree with that but there is not ignorance in thinking that way. I could say the same thing about your take on how we became. Just because we don't agree don't make either one of our beliefs ignorant.

Why is it so ignorant when things are so perfectly working with such precision. Thousands of other planets but not one can be found like ours.

I think y'all have let the xtians steal your afterlife, your hope. After 7/8 years as an atheist I said no you can't have God all to yourself. I believe too and I disagree with what you say about God. Thank God for dinosaurs or I might never have snapped out of the brainwashing they put on me as a child.

I have my own personal experiences to fall back on. Every trial that God's spirit has seen me through with strength, wisdom and love.

Do you think it's a coincidence boots? I thought y'all use laws of physics to explain it all. Laws y'all can't even agree on. Yea I heard last week scientist are changing the speed of light to match their string theory. Go figure. There is such little absolute knowledge about our creation/the universe we are all ignorant and left to our imaginations, instinct and intellect.

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Hope this day finds you doing well... prepare yourself so you can be a rainbow in somebody else's cloud. Somebody who may not look like you. May not call God the same name you call God - if they call God at all. I may not dance your dances or speak your language. But be a blessing to somebody. Maya

It is a fact that I do not see our longevity in the cosmos a coincidence. I don't find any of it a coincidence seems more like an extraordinary well thought out plan. Now you can disagree with that but there is not ignorance in thinking that way.

You are still not understanding what I'm saying. Did you read the link to the wiki definition of "Argument from Ignorance?" What you said above *is* the definition!! You do not see any other possible way existence is the way it is, therefore it's god.

Oh, and...WHAT longevity?? our lifespan, even the entire span of existence for our species, is totally insignificant when compared to that of the cosmos. That the universe has existed for billions of years, and we've been around for a paltry few thousands, seems like pretty piss-poor planning to me *shrug*

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I could say the same thing about your take on how we became. Just because we don't agree don't make either one of our beliefs ignorant.

Actually, it does. The jury is still out on how we came to be, so my personal take is "I don't know" You claim to know, based on the fact that you can't think of another way it happened.

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Why is it so ignorant when things are so perfectly working with such precision. Thousands of other planets but not one can be found like ours.

...yet.

-are you referring to the "finely tuned universe" thing? If the universe were so finely tuned for life, why we aware of life only on this tiny insignificant speck of dirt out of the entire expanse of the universe?

-in what way are things working so perfectly with such precision? Do you know how many species have gone extinct on this planet? How harsh most environments are? How about that your food hole is the same as your air hole, putting you in jeopardy of choking every time you eat or drink? How about genetic mutations that create untold suffering for children and their parents? Diseases such as cancer, Alzheimer's, diabetes, you name it.

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I have my own personal experiences to fall back on. Every trial that God's spirit has seen me through with strength, wisdom and love.

This is perhaps one of the most offensive things theists say IMHO. You are totally cheapening your own personal strength/wisdom/capacity for love by assigning it to your imaginary deity instead of taking credit for your own accomplishments. Every human has a great capacity for fortitude and inner strength, no gods required. The fact that you choose to attribute your won accomplishments to your superstition...well, sorry but more fool you.

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Do you think it's a coincidence boots? I thought y'all use laws of physics to explain it all. Laws y'all can't even agree on. Yea I heard last week scientist are changing the speed of light to match their string theory. Go figure. There is such little absolute knowledge about our creation/the universe we are all ignorant and left to our imaginations, instinct and intellect.

I'm not sure I'd categorize it as "coincidence," but I do not believe in an overlying intelligent entity that directed/directs everything. As far as the speed of light, this is the first I've heard of that, I'll look into that claim. Finally, if you honestly believe we are all ignorant, why are you taking such issue with my pointing out your Argument from Ignorance (Please note the capitols--and READ ABOUT THE LOGICAL FALLACY)?

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It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today. I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.~jdawg70

It is a fact that I do not see our longevity in the cosmos a coincidence. I don't find any of it a coincidence seems more like an extraordinary well thought out plan. Now you can disagree with that but there is not ignorance in thinking that way.

You are still not understanding what I'm saying. Did you read the link to the wiki definition of "Argument from Ignorance?" What you said above *is* the definition!! You do not see any other possible way existence is the way it is, therefore it's god.

Oh, and...WHAT longevity?? our lifespan, even the entire span of existence for our species, is totally insignificant when compared to that of the cosmos. That the universe has existed for billions of years, and we've been around for a paltry few thousands, seems like pretty piss-poor planning to me *shrug*

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I could say the same thing about your take on how we became. Just because we don't agree don't make either one of our beliefs ignorant.

Actually, it does. The jury is still out on how we came to be, so my personal take is "I don't know" You claim to know, based on the fact that you can't think of another way it happened.

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Why is it so ignorant when things are so perfectly working with such precision. Thousands of other planets but not one can be found like ours.

...yet.

-are you referring to the "finely tuned universe" thing? If the universe were so finely tuned for life, why we aware of life only on this tiny insignificant speck of dirt out of the entire expanse of the universe?

-in what way are things working so perfectly with such precision? Do you know how many species have gone extinct on this planet? How harsh most environments are? How about that your food hole is the same as your air hole, putting you in jeopardy of choking every time you eat or drink? How about genetic mutations that create untold suffering for children and their parents? Diseases such as cancer, Alzheimer's, diabetes, you name it.

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I have my own personal experiences to fall back on. Every trial that God's spirit has seen me through with strength, wisdom and love.

This is perhaps one of the most offensive things theists say IMHO. You are totally cheapening your own personal strength/wisdom/capacity for love by assigning it to your imaginary deity instead of taking credit for your own accomplishments. Every human has a great capacity for fortitude and inner strength, no gods required. The fact that you choose to attribute your won accomplishments to your superstition...well, sorry but more fool you.

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Do you think it's a coincidence boots? I thought y'all use laws of physics to explain it all. Laws y'all can't even agree on. Yea I heard last week scientist are changing the speed of light to match their string theory. Go figure. There is such little absolute knowledge about our creation/the universe we are all ignorant and left to our imaginations, instinct and intellect.

I'm not sure I'd categorize it as "coincidence," but I do not believe in an overlying intelligent entity that directed/directs everything. As far as the speed of light, this is the first I've heard of that, I'll look into that claim. Finally, if you honestly believe we are all ignorant, why are you taking such issue with my pointing out your Argument from Ignorance (Please note the capitols--and READ ABOUT THE LOGICAL FALLACY)?

I haven't read it all yet but your claiming that I know anything is you misunderstanding me. I have not claimed knowledge but belief. You are closer to acting like you know something than I have been just by saying I'm wrong when you don't know. I don't care what this website calls an argument from ignorance, I'm saying it is not. There are several reasons why a person would believe in a "Higher Power" and I have pointed them out repeatedly here. Just because y'all want to ignore it because you hate religions doesn't mean I have to follow.

I don't think anybody here is ignorant boots. Quite the opposite. I think y'all are some of the sharper tools in the shed. I'm just saying it is wrong to call someone's beliefs ignorant when it makes some sense.

I believe I was watching "Through the Wormhole" and they are now saying that the speed of light was faster after the big bang and that it has slowed down over time. They are trying to prove the string theory. I say what about wasting all that money on hogwash. Like time travel, any body with good common sense should realize time travel is not possible, but billions of dollars are spent on the study and experimentation. I saw a scientist trying to create a microscopic black hole. I guarantee you the contraption that has been built cost billions of dollars. I wish I could remember what her purpose was but i can't.

The point I'm trying to make with all that is that we are so far away it ain't funny so you atheist need to practice what you preach and quit spouting beliefs off as facts.

I really don't get your remark about piss poor planning. Do you happen to know the plan boots. If you don't know the plan how would you determine such a remark. How do you know that the timing wasn't perfect? I myself would have not wanted our ancestors fending off t-Rex or boiling to death on a planet so hot we could not survive. Seems to me timing was perfect!!!

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Hope this day finds you doing well... prepare yourself so you can be a rainbow in somebody else's cloud. Somebody who may not look like you. May not call God the same name you call God - if they call God at all. I may not dance your dances or speak your language. But be a blessing to somebody. Maya

As has already been remarked, in this argument, the god GIVES the purpose to the individual concerned, so therefore whatever purpose that person has is the god's purpose, not theirs. What they are saying is that they are quite happy to accept the purpose given by another being as the meaning for their lives.

I guess some people just can't see the BIGGER picture.

This is what people say when the little things don't add up. It's like saying, "yeah, I know it doesn't add up when you look at it critically, but if you just ignore those details, it works!"

This line of thinking doesn't fly here.

What details have I ignored Jeff?

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Hope this day finds you doing well... prepare yourself so you can be a rainbow in somebody else's cloud. Somebody who may not look like you. May not call God the same name you call God - if they call God at all. I may not dance your dances or speak your language. But be a blessing to somebody. Maya

Over at the WWGH blog, i have encountered several theists who say "without god, life is meaningless". Which i find is ironic, as god allows one to waste this life and still have more, meanwhile atheists will try to make the most of this life.

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Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

I haven't read it all yet but your claiming that I know anything is you misunderstanding me.

No. It's really not. The response is to what you wrote and if it's being misunderstood, it's your job to be more clear about what you actually mean.

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I have not claimed knowledge but belief. You are closer to acting like you know something than I have been just by saying I'm wrong when you don't know.

This is questionable. Your posts read as though you are claiming to know, although I realize that this is a matter of style. And it's sounds kind of petty and indicates that you are still not entirely familiar with logical fallacies.

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I don't care what this website calls an argument from ignorance, I'm saying it is not.

^^^THIS is where you bang headfirst into a problem - the Argument from Ignorance is not something invented by someone on this website, it's a well accepted philosophical concept that has been around longer than you and I have been alive - by a lot. You would benefit from actually doing the follow-up reading of linked material in posts directed specifically to you. You do not get to reassign meanings to words or phrases to suit yourself.

You seem to be taking the word "ignorance" very personally. It's not a remark directed at you, it's an observation of the weakness in the argument that you are presenting. This isn't going to go anywhere useful if you refuse to do some reading up on what logical fallacies are and how to recognize them. Boots gave you a good link that explains specifically what the Argument from Ignorance is and how to avoid using it, or to recognize it when it's being used by someone else.

It might also be helpful to realize that EVERYONE does this, almost always without knowing that they are doing so - it takes effort to learn to avoid these lapses. Logical fallacies are named as such precisely because they are the most commonly used "bad" arguments and they take a predictable form - such as "No True Scotsman" which I think you've seen a few times here. It's a term applied to the argument, not to the person making the argument.

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There are several reasons why a person would believe in a "Higher Power" and I have pointed them out repeatedly here. Just because y'all want to ignore it because you hate religions doesn't mean I have to follow.

This final line is just childish and you know it. It's when you slip into this kind of behavior that other members begin to treat you in a way you define as "mean to you" jb. You may be right in some cases, but I think it's often frustration and you don't recognize your part in creating the problem.

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“Be skeptical. But when you get proof, accept proof.” –Michael Specter

JB, you are getting upset because you see the word "ignorance" and think you are being attacked. You are not. Ignorance just means "not knowing". Arguments based on feelings, not necessarily based on knowing facts, leads to defending something that you believe, but don't know.

I am pretty ignorant about a lot of things: nuclear physics, the history of the Russian language, the Seinfeld show, golf. I don't know much about them, so I am ignorant about them. It does not mean I am less of a person or stupid. But since I don't know much about them, I have to be careful about making blanket statements about them.

A golfer is trying to explain the principles of the game to me. I say that I don't accept their explanation: "I can't imagine how Tiger Woods hits a golf ball that far and gets it into the right place, so I'll just say it's by elf magic."[1] That would be defined as an argument from ignorance. I don't know any facts, so I make something up that sounds right to me. If I don't care whether my statement is true or not (it just feels right to me, so I believe it is true) I will remain ignorant about golf.

You can only imagine how I would come off debating about golf on a website full of golfers, keeping to my elf magic argument and refusing to seriously consider what they try to tell me about golf....

When you say nothing other than "I guess some people just can't see the BIGGER picture" you're ignoring every detail in favor of a personal comment.

That is not my quote. I don't think any of that is.

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Hope this day finds you doing well... prepare yourself so you can be a rainbow in somebody else's cloud. Somebody who may not look like you. May not call God the same name you call God - if they call God at all. I may not dance your dances or speak your language. But be a blessing to somebody. Maya

Because your point has been that meaning must be eternal to be relevant - a temporary meaning, you have implied, is meaningless.

If what we do here is "get to heaven" purposed, then once we are IN heaven, that meaning is completed. It is therefore only temporary, and therefore meaningless, surely? Or are you agreeing that some actions can have a meaning and purpose that is time-limited?

No, Anfauglir, because the effects of that meaning - the reward for it - would be eternal. So at least he's consistent on that score.

Fair enough - I can see that. But don't we then need some clarification from him on what exactly goes on in heaven?

So just like I thought. To say God does not exist is an argument from ignorance as well. Y'all ain't going to catch me in this web. I would think boots could handle this one w/o everybody ganging up on me. I'm not going to argue with 3,4,5 people at a time here. This was really between me and boots.

Jag damnit you pissed me off with your childish comment, totally wrong. I don't recall saying nanananana. I'm tired of you telling me it's my fault people don't understand me. I speak very clearly and carefully if they're not getting it it's not because I'm not saying the right words. So I brush that off and move on.

NoGods I'm not being defensive to be defensive. This started because of a smite I got. After the big blow up I got to thinking about karma and how I will no longer give smites. I'm fighting cancer! I need all the good karma I can get. I won't sell my soul to get it here though you can take that to the bank and cash it. Figure of speech y'all. Don't go crazy with it.

As far as golf I know the ball ain't going to put itself in the hole. There is an intelligent being there to help it get there. This is why I say my statement is not from ignorance nor is it from knowledge it is from experience; my life experience.

Now I'm done with this thread.

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Hope this day finds you doing well... prepare yourself so you can be a rainbow in somebody else's cloud. Somebody who may not look like you. May not call God the same name you call God - if they call God at all. I may not dance your dances or speak your language. But be a blessing to somebody. Maya

So just like I thought. To say God does not exist is an argument from ignorance as well. Y'all ain't going to catch me in this web. I would think boots could handle this one w/o everybody ganging up on me. I'm not going to argue with 3,4,5 people at a time here. This was really between me and boots.

There isn't a web, JB. And rejecting a positive claim ("god exists" and "god created everything") that has no evidence isn't an argument from ignorance. I claim that I don't know where everything came from, but that science is working on it. Your claiming that my rejection of your positive claim, is an example of you shifting the burden of proof (something theists do *all the time*, here and elsewhere)

and truth be told, I was having a hard time "handling" it because you were essentially ignoring what I was saying, and not reading the link provided. I thought it helpful that others were able to reword what I was saying and take some of the probable sting of the word "ignorance" that was not directed at you, but at your argument.

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Now I'm done with this thread.

That's unfortunate.

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It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today. I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.~jdawg70

Nobody is trying to catch you in a web. You have created your own web by misinterpreting what an Argument from Ignorance is. We are trying to help you out of it. You are being rather stubborn in your refusal to accept help.

I've counseled you in the past to ignore the Karma. You take it personally and should not. If this were a widespread problem, I'd turn off the Karma system. But you seem to be the only one with a problem. I wish I could help you. I do not know how, though. Tell me, junebug, how can I help you when you will not help yourself?

JB, you either did not understand what I was saying, or else you really do believe that a magic elf helps Tiger Woods put the golf ball on the green. And you would argue that point with golf experts who try to explain the physics of golf to you. Because you don't understand what the word ignorance means. I guess I am also done here.

Jag damnit you pissed me off with your childish comment, totally wrong. I don't recall saying nanananana. I'm tired of you telling me it's my fault people don't understand me. I speak very clearly and carefully if they're not getting it it's not because I'm not saying the right words. So I brush that off and move on.

Well, pissing you off wasn't my intention. I was, once again, trying to help you see what YOU could try to improve communications.

You can get as mad at me as you want to but if your message is routinely being "misunderstood" then yes, the problem is you. Your brushing it off and moving on does nothing to correct it either. Making yourself understood is your job, and if it ain't happening, look to your message and make it more clear. Communications 101.

Official WWGHA Harpy, out.

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“Be skeptical. But when you get proof, accept proof.” –Michael Specter

By the way, Junebug, "argument from ignorance" is actually an official philosophical term, that has nothing to do with intelligence at all. From wiki, I've bolded the important part, which is much clearer in its definition, and much less likely to be taken personally. I think this is what the others are trying to say ... they are certainly not intending to call you stupid. They're merely pointing out a common term in logic, where "ignorance" really means "lack of evidence to the contrary."

I hope this helps.

From wikipedia ...

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Argument from ignorance (Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance stands for "lack of evidence to the contrary"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there is insufficient investigation and therefore insufficient information to prove the proposition satisfactorily to be either true or false.

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If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

By the way, Junebug, "argument from ignorance" is actually an official philosophical term, that has nothing to do with intelligence at all. From wiki, I've bolded the important part, which is much clearer in its definition, and much less likely to be taken personally. I think this is what the others are trying to say ... they are certainly not intending to call you stupid. They're merely pointing out a common term in logic, where "ignorance" really means "lack of evidence to the contrary."

I hope this helps.

From wikipedia ...

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Argument from ignorance (Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance stands for "lack of evidence to the contrary"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there is insufficient investigation and therefore insufficient information to prove the proposition satisfactorily to be either true or false.

"Ignorance" is the more general sense mean "Lack of knowledge" I am ignorant of syntax in the Chinese Language, How to program in Cobol, the details of Texas motor vechicle law, and so forth.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

I am mostly ignorant. There are a few fields where I know a few things. But mostly, not.

My understanding of Argument from Ignorance mainly revolves around the user's inability to formulate an alternative explanation.

I believe plasma tv's work by actual faeries pressed between two sheets of glass. But that is because I don't know how else it could possibly work. That is an argument from ignorance.

Or to be more general about it, an argument from ignorance is the idea "could be" is a good argument for "is."It could be refugees from Atlantis that helped the Egyptian culture to flourish like it did.

If you watch any "woo" programs on TLC or History Channel, you will notice that they are built around a question that is not known, go to 'could be,' then the rest of the program takes that 'could be' as an 'is.'

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

We haven't worked out how the universe formed and what there was before the universe

But we want to know why the universe and humans are here (and we haven't the patience to wait for science)

There is a god who created everything

Obviously, June, there are many explanations of how the universe came into being - New Scientist this week carry the meta-verse idea that bubble form in the mete-verse which turn into universes - and a god is only one of those ideas. It is jumping the gun to say that a particular idea is the right one.

Imagine, June, for a moment, that you lived several thousand years ago and the shaman of your village explained to you that thunder and lightning were a god showing his anger because you hadn't given the shaman enough food. not accepting that explanation, because it has not evidence for it, would have been the right answer even though you would not have lived long enough to hear about static electricity. Or how about living in the mid 19th century and being told by your doctor that a wrong balance of your humours was responsible for your fever while Pasteur was giving the world the germ theory of disease.This is is how jumping the gun and saying there is a god who created the universe will look once we have firmed up and demonstrated how it actually happened. You wouldn't explain thunder and lightning as an angry god today (I hope) and the idea of a creating god will seem that strange one day too.

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No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

I just realized what JB's implication that a magic elf makes golf balls go where the golfer wants them to means. It has nothing to do with the fact that Tiger Woods played golf from the time he was 5. Or that he was coached by his dad, a golf expert. Or that he is a one in a million talent at golf (and not a very good guy in his personal life).

Magic elves are the key! If I believe in them, I, with not a whit of golfing knowledge or experience, could win the next big golf tournament! I'm quitting my college teaching job today and heading off to the nearest golf course! I'm gonna be rich! Thanks, JB!