iMisto wrote:I'd take NYU at sticker. .. but I doubt you'll have to. Yes, your GPA is a bit low, but that puuurty LSAT is gonna be hard for them to turn down.

Be careful, with all this non-HYS sticker talk, we're practically summoning Mr. Wayne.

Are you making a batman reference? I'm so confused.

Nah, a TLS user who likes to tell everyone on here how they're going to be unemployed and in 6-figure debt if they go anywhere except HYS at sticker. He has some useful points worth considering, but I think they're sometimes lost on his gloom-and-doom presentation of them. The tl;dr of everything he says seems to be: gun for NYC / secondary markets are hard to crack even with ties + T14 degree, and no one is immune from unemployment.

02889 wrote:Are there any thoughts on incorporating some of this into your personal statement? Since there's no page limit, my NYU PS is currently about a page longer than the rest, and has some sentences about why NYU fits with the theme of my PS.

People definitely tailor their personal statements, its just as good as a "Why NYU," I think. I am so on the fence about writing one still. My PS is not about lawyering.

You don't need a "Why NYU" essay. In fact, the most skilled writers can make such a statement subtly, without beating the reader over the head with it. That's what you want in a personal statement....to demonstrate skilled writing. Be direct and tailor your points narrowly, but inject ethos, pathos, mythos, and logos into the essay. If you are using those elements, you can make your point.

Your PS is about you, right? So infuse into your PS a discussion about how some aspect of your development makes you a good fit for the culture at NYU. Consider using some symbol or motif to do it. You will have an opportunity to demonstrate why you want to go to NYU by showing that you understand its culture. By connecting some aspect of the culture to your story (and/or vice-versa), you can subtly make your point.

iMisto wrote:I'd take NYU at sticker. .. but I doubt you'll have to. Yes, your GPA is a bit low, but that puuurty LSAT is gonna be hard for them to turn down.

Be careful, with all this non-HYS sticker talk, we're practically summoning Mr. Wayne.

Are you making a batman reference? I'm so confused.

Nah, a TLS user who likes to tell everyone on here how they're going to be unemployed and in 6-figure debt if they go anywhere except HYS at sticker. He has some useful points worth considering, but I think they're sometimes lost on his gloom-and-doom presentation of them. The tl;dr of everything he says seems to be: gun for NYC / secondary markets are hard to crack even with ties + T14 degree, and no one is immune from unemployment.

Love that. Its like batman is coming...to tell you you're making a mistake.

I totally get the whole aversion to non HYS sticker and trust me, I've lost sleep over it. But I would rather have $250,000 in debt and a job than $70,000 in debt (for COL incurred while getting a "full ride" from Cardozo or something) and no job. Obviously no one is immune from unemployment but I have a demonstrated ability to hustle in terms of employment.

02889 wrote:Are there any thoughts on incorporating some of this into your personal statement? Since there's no page limit, my NYU PS is currently about a page longer than the rest, and has some sentences about why NYU fits with the theme of my PS.

People definitely tailor their personal statements, its just as good as a "Why NYU," I think. I am so on the fence about writing one still. My PS is not about lawyering.

You don't need a "Why NYU" essay. In fact, the most skilled writers can make such a statement subtly, without beating the reader over the head with it. That's what you want in a personal statement....to demonstrate skilled writing. Be direct and tailor your points narrowly, but inject ethos, pathos, mythos, and logos into the essay. If you are using those elements, you can make your point.

Your PS is about you, right? So infuse into your PS a discussion about how some aspect of your development makes you a good fit for the culture at NYU. Consider using some symbol or motif to do it. You will have an opportunity to demonstrate why you want to go to NYU by showing that you understand its culture. By connecting some aspect of the culture to your story (and/or vice-versa), you can subtly make your point.

02889 wrote:Are there any thoughts on incorporating some of this into your personal statement? Since there's no page limit, my NYU PS is currently about a page longer than the rest, and has some sentences about why NYU fits with the theme of my PS.

People definitely tailor their personal statements, its just as good as a "Why NYU," I think. I am so on the fence about writing one still. My PS is not about lawyering.

You don't need a "Why NYU" essay. In fact, the most skilled writers can make such a statement subtly, without beating the reader over the head with it. That's what you want in a personal statement....to demonstrate skilled writing. Be direct and tailor your points narrowly, but inject ethos, pathos, mythos, and logos into the essay. If you are using those elements, you can make your point.

Your PS is about you, right? So infuse into your PS a discussion about how some aspect of your development makes you a good fit for the culture at NYU. Consider using some symbol or motif to do it. You will have an opportunity to demonstrate why you want to go to NYU by showing that you understand its culture. By connecting some aspect of the culture to your story (and/or vice-versa), you can subtly make your point.

Just to clarify; I wasn't advocating a "Why NYU" essay. Like I mentioned, I personally only had 2-3 sentences of Why X in my PS for NYU. Don't think we're really saying anything different (though I do think there are more substantive things than culture that someone may also be interested. NYU examples: the focus on clinical training, PI network, specific research groups and programs that may not be at other schools or not in combination with the other things at NYU in combination with culture.)

ETA: If anything, I'd limit cultural comparisons. It's certainly part of the decision making process and may be worth mention, but talking excessively about the culture of a school most applicants will have only had minor experience with sounds less tenable than a focus on specific programs or institutional strengths that would be valuable irrespective of your prior personal experiences with the school.

02889 wrote:Are there any thoughts on incorporating some of this into your personal statement? Since there's no page limit, my NYU PS is currently about a page longer than the rest, and has some sentences about why NYU fits with the theme of my PS.

People definitely tailor their personal statements, its just as good as a "Why NYU," I think. I am so on the fence about writing one still. My PS is not about lawyering.

You don't need a "Why NYU" essay. In fact, the most skilled writers can make such a statement subtly, without beating the reader over the head with it. That's what you want in a personal statement....to demonstrate skilled writing. Be direct and tailor your points narrowly, but inject ethos, pathos, mythos, and logos into the essay. If you are using those elements, you can make your point.

Your PS is about you, right? So infuse into your PS a discussion about how some aspect of your development makes you a good fit for the culture at NYU. Consider using some symbol or motif to do it. You will have an opportunity to demonstrate why you want to go to NYU by showing that you understand its culture. By connecting some aspect of the culture to your story (and/or vice-versa), you can subtly make your point.

Just to clarify; I wasn't advocating a "Why NYU" essay. Like I mentioned, I personally only had 2-3 sentences of Why X in my PS for NYU. Don't think we're really saying anything different (though I do think there are more substantive things than culture that someone may also be interested. NYU examples: the focus on clinical training, PI network, specific research groups and programs that may not be at other schools or not in combination with the other things at NYU in combination with culture.)

ETA: If anything, I'd limit cultural comparisons. It's certainly part of the decision making process and may be worth mention, but talking excessively about the culture of a school most applicants will have only had minor experience with sounds less tenable than a focus on specific programs or institutional strengths that would be valuable irrespective of your prior personal experiences with the school.

Oh, I misunderstood your post then. My PS finishes with something about goals, I guess I could work in a few sentences at the very end about how NYU would help me reach my goals better than any other law school, which is pretty much true because of their PI reputation and location.

francesfarmer wrote:Oh, I misunderstood your post then. My PS finishes with something about goals, I guess I could work in a few sentences at the very end about how NYU would help me reach my goals better than any other law school, which is pretty much true because of their PI reputation and location.

Totally worth bringing up how NYU will help you realize your goals, but I think you'd get more mileage out of your PS by focusing on how your goals developed and then a smaller bit about how NYU is uniquely situated to help you accomplish those goals. I agree with the previous poster that your PS should be about you, but if you want to incorporate a Why X element in it, I doubt it would hurt and it could help substantiate that rationale behind your decision to apply ED. That said, it should be an 'element,' not the focus (after all, ED already indicates that it is your first choice).

francesfarmer wrote:Oh, I misunderstood your post then. My PS finishes with something about goals, I guess I could work in a few sentences at the very end about how NYU would help me reach my goals better than any other law school, which is pretty much true because of their PI reputation and location.

Totally worth bringing up how NYU will help you realize your goals, but I think you'd get more mileage out of your PS by focusing on how your goals developed and then a smaller bit about how NYU is uniquely situated to help you accomplish those goals. I agree with the previous poster that your PS should be about you, but if you want to incorporate a Why X element in it, I doubt it would hurt and it could help substantiate that rationale behind your decision to apply ED. That said, it should be an 'element,' not the focus (after all, ED already indicates that it is your first choice).

Its not a standard PS about goals or how I ended up wanting to be a lawyer. Its really personal and it might be weird to incorporate a school's programs into it. I'll try it out and see if it feels awkward or compromises my voice. Thanks!

francesfarmer wrote:Oh, I misunderstood your post then. My PS finishes with something about goals, I guess I could work in a few sentences at the very end about how NYU would help me reach my goals better than any other law school, which is pretty much true because of their PI reputation and location.

Totally worth bringing up how NYU will help you realize your goals, but I think you'd get more mileage out of your PS by focusing on how your goals developed and then a smaller bit about how NYU is uniquely situated to help you accomplish those goals. I agree with the previous poster that your PS should be about you, but if you want to incorporate a Why X element in it, I doubt it would hurt and it could help substantiate that rationale behind your decision to apply ED. That said, it should be an 'element,' not the focus (after all, ED already indicates that it is your first choice).

Its not a standard PS about goals or how I ended up wanting to be a lawyer. Its really personal and it might be weird to incorporate a school's programs into it. I'll try it out and see if it feels awkward or compromises my voice. Thanks!

Ah ok. GL either way and can always submit it to the TLS masses for pillage and raping editing and review.

francesfarmer wrote:Oh, I misunderstood your post then. My PS finishes with something about goals, I guess I could work in a few sentences at the very end about how NYU would help me reach my goals better than any other law school, which is pretty much true because of their PI reputation and location.

Totally worth bringing up how NYU will help you realize your goals, but I think you'd get more mileage out of your PS by focusing on how your goals developed and then a smaller bit about how NYU is uniquely situated to help you accomplish those goals. I agree with the previous poster that your PS should be about you, but if you want to incorporate a Why X element in it, I doubt it would hurt and it could help substantiate that rationale behind your decision to apply ED. That said, it should be an 'element,' not the focus (after all, ED already indicates that it is your first choice).

Its not a standard PS about goals or how I ended up wanting to be a lawyer. Its really personal and it might be weird to incorporate a school's programs into it. I'll try it out and see if it feels awkward or compromises my voice. Thanks!

Ah ok. GL either way and can always submit it to the TLS masses for pillage and raping editing and review.

Oh god, no way. I did that three years ago and that, my friend, is why I have a shiny new TLS account for this cycle.

I may be completely off base, but from the looks of it, it seems like you REALLY want NYU. If you ED, then you can leave your puurfect little PS the way it is. If you RD, you can keep your fingers crossed. Above, you said you'd much rather have 250K of debt + a job than 70K of debt and no job. I can't think of a better fit for you and your PI interests than NYU.

I may be completely off base, but from the looks of it, it seems like you REALLY want NYU. If you ED, then you can leave your puurfect little PS the way it is. If you RD, you can keep your fingers crossed. Above, you said you'd much rather have 250K of debt + a job than 70K of debt and no job. I can't think of a better fit for you and your PI interests than NYU.

ED, and spend the next year working on your tannnnnnn.

Thank you for your encouragement! I am just gonna ED this weekend and get it the hell over with, then on to tanning. <333

I may be completely off base, but from the looks of it, it seems like you REALLY want NYU. If you ED, then you can leave your puurfect little PS the way it is. If you RD, you can keep your fingers crossed. Above, you said you'd much rather have 250K of debt + a job than 70K of debt and no job. I can't think of a better fit for you and your PI interests than NYU.

ED, and spend the next year working on your tannnnnnn.

Just to be clear, OP you do realize that hiring from PI is extremely competitive, you may have to take several unpaid internships and you may not end up getting a job in PI at all?

I just want to be sure you realize that the choice isn't that $250,000 in debt (principal only, the interest accumulates from day 1) from NYU does = a job you want in PI. You can end up with $250,000 in debt and no job in PI. Last year someone from Duke (above median, I think, possibly higher) posted a thread where she was unable to even find a job at all that would qualify for their LRAP program. Just keep that possibility in mind, even from NYU.

I don't know why anyone is applying ED this year after the money and desperation that schools gave out last year. ( although if NU still give full scholarships that may not be a bad deal.) Maybe you can still get some aid from NYU if you are ED but you won't have any other offers to negotiate with. Paying back a quarter of a million dollars plus interest is going to take a long time and a massive amount of money.

Just be sure you think this through very carefully. Don't limit yourself just to make your life easier.

Of course it may well work out for you, but you should look carefully at the NYU employment stats and see where people were hired in PI. Figure out what the chances are that you will get the job you want.

But it is your choice, so good luck with whatever you decide. I hope it all works out well for you.

^ PI is definitely competitive. However, which school will give OP the best shot at it? I think it's hard to argue somewhere other than NYU, IMO. Moreover, if OP switches gears and opts into biglaw, I think NYU remains the winner.

iMisto wrote:^ PI is definitely competitive. However, which school will give OP the best shot at it? I think it's hard to argue somewhere other than NYU, IMO. Moreover, if OP switches gears and opts into biglaw, I think NYU remains the winner.

I have thought about it extensively (like, many sleepless nights) and this is exactly my thought process. I have absolutely no interest in working anywhere other than New York, I don't anticipate big enough money to entice me from any school that feeds into NY and has employment statistics as good as NYU's, with 40% of the class in biglaw and 25% in public service. Also I have connections in New York, like my current boss, the general counsel of a highly respected nonprofit.

And if I don't get PI, I will work in biglaw and pay off as much of my loans as I can in three years before they fire me, so like, $120k? IRB after that? I feel ok about that option.

iMisto wrote:^ PI is definitely competitive. However, which school will give OP the best shot at it? I think it's hard to argue somewhere other than NYU, IMO. Moreover, if OP switches gears and opts into biglaw, I think NYU remains the winner.

I have thought about it extensively (like, many sleepless nights) and this is exactly my thought process. I have absolutely no interest in working anywhere other than New York, I don't anticipate big enough money to entice me from any school that feeds into NY and has employment statistics as good as NYU's, with 40% of the class in biglaw and 25% in public service. Also I have connections in New York, like my current boss, the general counsel of a highly respected nonprofit.

And if I don't get PI, I will work in biglaw and pay off as much of my loans as I can in three years before they fire me, so like, $120k? IRB after that? I feel ok about that option.

And if you don't get either PI or biglaw, will you start off on IBR? Just asking.

iMisto wrote:^ PI is definitely competitive. However, which school will give OP the best shot at it? I think it's hard to argue somewhere other than NYU, IMO. Moreover, if OP switches gears and opts into biglaw, I think NYU remains the winner.

I have thought about it extensively (like, many sleepless nights) and this is exactly my thought process. I have absolutely no interest in working anywhere other than New York, I don't anticipate big enough money to entice me from any school that feeds into NY and has employment statistics as good as NYU's, with 40% of the class in biglaw and 25% in public service. Also I have connections in New York, like my current boss, the general counsel of a highly respected nonprofit.

And if I don't get PI, I will work in biglaw and pay off as much of my loans as I can in three years before they fire me, so like, $120k? IRB after that? I feel ok about that option.

And if you don't get either PI or biglaw, will you start off on IBR? Just asking.

Yeah, or like, starve/default? I would be in the same situation with $100k+ in debt.

Also I won't have $250k in debt. I'm going to take out ~$5k less a year than they suggest for COL, work part-time at very flexible jobs that I have worked in the past, I will have family support to the tune of $3k a year, and I'll have some money in the bank. So it will be less than worst case scenario.

I appreciate the concern because the legal market sucks and a lot of people are going to like, Rutgers at sticker, but I think I'm making a reasonable choice compared to the other options.

iMisto wrote:^ PI is definitely competitive. However, which school will give OP the best shot at it? I think it's hard to argue somewhere other than NYU, IMO. Moreover, if OP switches gears and opts into biglaw, I think NYU remains the winner.

I have thought about it extensively (like, many sleepless nights) and this is exactly my thought process. I have absolutely no interest in working anywhere other than New York, I don't anticipate big enough money to entice me from any school that feeds into NY and has employment statistics as good as NYU's, with 40% of the class in biglaw and 25% in public service. Also I have connections in New York, like my current boss, the general counsel of a highly respected nonprofit.

And if I don't get PI, I will work in biglaw and pay off as much of my loans as I can in three years before they fire me, so like, $120k? IRB after that? I feel ok about that option.

And if you don't get either PI or biglaw, will you start off on IBR? Just asking.

Yeah, or like, starve/default? I would be in the same situation with $100k+ in debt.

Also I won't have $250k in debt. I'm going to take out ~$5k less a year than they suggest for COL, work part-time at very flexible jobs that I have worked in the past, I will have family support to the tune of $3k a year, and I'll have some money in the bank. So it will be less than worst case scenario.

I appreciate the concern because the legal market sucks and a lot of people are going to like, Rutgers at sticker, but I think I'm making a reasonable choice compared to the other options.

I'm just concerned about your cutting off any negotiating power you might have otherwise at NYU if you have competing offers and if they really want you. There was money flying around last year, but i didn't study it closely enough to give you specific advice as to other schools that you should apply to. Someone else here probably has a better idea.

In rayiner's thread of unemployment and underemployment for the class of 2011 about 30% of NYU's class was unemployed or underemployed. viewtopic.php?f=23&t=181723You probably should at least consider some worst case possibilities. You cant count on getting biglaw or PI from NYU for certain.

I think there is a vast difference between owing $100,000 and owing $250,000. It might be managable to repay $100,000 on a salary that isn't biglaw or isn't getting you LRAP. I have my doubts about managing to repay $250,000 (or even $220,000) without biglaw or LRAP.

Like I said, I hope everything works out for the best for you. I'm just trying to be sure you considered everything before you send in your ED application. Good luck!

sunynp wrote:I'm just concerned about your cutting off any negotiating power you might have otherwise at NYU if you have competing offers and if they really want you. There was money flying around last year, but i didn't study it closely enough to give you specific advice as to other schools that you should apply to. Someone else here probably has a better idea.

In rayiner's thread of unemployment and underemployment for the class of 2011 about 30% of NYU's class was unemployed or underemployed. viewtopic.php?f=23&t=181723You probably should at least consider some worst case possibilities. You cant count on getting biglaw or PI from NYU for certain.

I think there is a vast difference between owing $100,000 and owing $250,000. It might be managable to repay $100,000 on a salary that isn't biglaw or isn't getting you LRAP. I have my doubts about managing to repay $250,000 (or even $220,000) without biglaw or LRAP.

Like I said, I hope everything works out for the best for you. Good luck.

$250k is the figure at sticker with interest, $220k is sticker without interest (so $220k including interest is probably closer to the burden I'd have). And if I went somewhere at half scholarship I would have $130k before interest. So the difference is not $150k, its like, $80k? $80k plus interest over a lifetime is something I'm willing to pay for NYU. I don't think I'm competitive there without ED and I'm trying to imagine a scenario in which a good enough school offers me enough money to make me turn down NYU at sticker and I can't. Like, Georgetown? At half? Their employment stats are way worse than NYU's.

In the non-biglaw/non-LRAP scenario, you are completely discounting IBR, which I would utilize because I would have no choice.

The employment stats I'm looking at are at lawschooltransparency.com, and NYU is listed at 3.9% underemployment and 12% school funded. I don't know if this is for 2010 or 2011, but the ABA released 2011 figures which I have saved somewhere... they are not bleak. So basically to get a job that is either biglaw/LRAP/IBR, I will have to be in the top 85% of my class? I think I can manage that. If I didn't, I wouldn't be going to law school.

iMisto wrote:^ PI is definitely competitive. However, which school will give OP the best shot at it? I think it's hard to argue somewhere other than NYU, IMO. Moreover, if OP switches gears and opts into biglaw, I think NYU remains the winner.

I have thought about it extensively (like, many sleepless nights) and this is exactly my thought process. I have absolutely no interest in working anywhere other than New York, I don't anticipate big enough money to entice me from any school that feeds into NY and has employment statistics as good as NYU's, with 40% of the class in biglaw and 25% in public service. Also I have connections in New York, like my current boss, the general counsel of a highly respected nonprofit.

And if I don't get PI, I will work in biglaw and pay off as much of my loans as I can in three years before they fire me, so like, $120k? IRB after that? I feel ok about that option.

And if you don't get either PI or biglaw, will you start off on IBR? Just asking.

Yeah, or like, starve/default? I would be in the same situation with $100k+ in debt.

Also I won't have $250k in debt. I'm going to take out ~$5k less a year than they suggest for COL, work part-time at very flexible jobs that I have worked in the past, I will have family support to the tune of $3k a year, and I'll have some money in the bank. So it will be less than worst case scenario.

I appreciate the concern because the legal market sucks and a lot of people are going to like, Rutgers at sticker, but I think I'm making a reasonable choice compared to the other options.

Some good on-the-ground news for PI at NYU: There are approximately a bajillion groups on campus to get you networked into more PI gigs. Seriously. We haven't even met with the PILC center and still are basically overwhelmed with stuff to get involved in (I literally would never ever have time to go to even just the mixers for all the groups). Off the top of my head: domestic violence advocacy, suspension representation project, HIV law society, this other group where you work with CLS in teaching HSers law (sorry don't remember the name), HIV law society, an unemployment project, a homelessness project, and a bunch of others I can't even remember. I'm pretty sure our summer PI funding is also one of the most generous of any T14.

^btw, I'm more biglaw oriented than anything, so this stuff isn't even particularly relevant to me (though, open to PI). we just get flooded with it (and it's fresh in my mind because of the constant deluge of emails we've been getting the past two weeks to go to group mixers )

This post you reference basically says the same thing as law school transparency. ~12% school funded, ~4% un/deremployed, 10% working in smaller firms (probably on IBR), and ~2% in non-prestigious clerkships.

indigomachine wrote:Some good on-the-ground news for PI at NYU: There are approximately a bajillion groups on campus to get you networked into more PI gigs. Seriously. We haven't even met with the PILC center and still are basically overwhelmed with stuff to get involved in (I literally would never ever have time to go to even just the mixers for all the groups). Off the top of my head: domestic violence advocacy, suspension representation project, HIV law society, this other group where you work with CLS in teaching HSers law (sorry don't remember the name), HIV law society, an unemployment project, a homelessness project, and a bunch of others I can't even remember. I'm pretty sure our summer PI funding is also one of the most generous of any T14.

^btw, I'm more biglaw oriented than anything, so this stuff isn't even particularly relevant to me (though, open to PI). we just get flooded with it (and it's fresh in my mind because of the constant deluge of emails we've been getting the past two weeks to go to group mixers )

Swimp wrote:My understanding of the "conventional wisdom" is that a Why X essay would be superfluous anywhere you're applying ED or at any school that doesn't offer ED (e.g., Harvard admissions knows why you want to come to Harvard). I've never heard someone say this about NYU.

I read it here on some big "Why X" thread that sending a "Why X" to a T6 is pointless because obviously you want to go to any T6.

I'm writing a Why Chicago- I really want money there and like what I wrote. Maybe write something up and see if it's worth sending. That's what I did. I just had an idea for an essay, said I'd write it but probably not use it, but then it turned out pretty good so I'm going to send it along.

I'm trying but its just like "I want to go to NYU because PI/clinics clinics clinics!/New York." I have worked in PI for 2 months and I live in New York. Beyond that I have nothing to say at all! Its really frustrating and I want to get this app out ASAP.

ugh, everything anyone ever says about PI sounds contrived (exaggerating, but only a little bit). officially having an anxiety attack, gonna take a clonopin and go to sleep. /thread /dignity

You work for a nonprofit, right? If I were you, I'd think about making the case that you want to be able to get your hands dirty in the law surrounding some particular issue that your employer deals with. It won't sound contrived because you're actually working in that area right now. You're not some undergrad who has no choice but to be all talk.