Well, what an interesting response Angelo. Yes Rudolf Steiner… indeed. An interesting connection we have here, I must say. But I’ll leave that and the quote for another time.

But I’m a little bit frustrated with myself reading back what I wrote – this rambling story of the whole thing with that man, because really it was so much more. It goes back far, into abstracted descriptions beyond the human drama events on this ground. But I didn’t convey any of that -it was just a little too difficult and involved without getting lost in words, and quite outside of the question. Perhaps there might have been karmic events with this person - maybe a discarded life somewhere, but I didn’t really feel that. He was foreign to me. And as an aside – his understanding of sensuality was limited to relaxation and sexuality, which of course was not going to happen, something he wasn't quite grasping.

It sounds sirryah like you had a karmic encounter, unavoidable, like magnets of orbit through time, drawn by some force back together over and over in different guises throughout the fabric of time.

The following quote, from almost 100 years ago, is an esoteric lecture provided by Rudolf Steiner about Redemption and Liberation. The following quote can be see to be in relation to Dr.Neruda's claims of various beings (gods) role in the creation of the human being, and how this created being became an individuator of consciousness. There is also a description of an Old Moon period where humans did not have bodies, but were basically extensions of a divine consciousness, but had no thoughts of their own:

Try to conceive of man without a physical body. He would not pass through death; the renewal of his being would not be brought about by birth as we know it, but by some other means. Certain parts of the astral body and the etheric body would be subject to change, that is all. Around an imperishable centre, the surrounding sheaths alone would be the media of communication with the environment, — such was the condition of man during the Old Moon period of evolution; his being was subject to metamorphoses, not to birth or death. But in this state he had no consciousness in our sense of the word. The Gods who had given him form were around him, behind him, not within him. They were to him what the tree is to the branch or what the brain is to the hand. The hand moves, but the consciousness of the movement is in the brain. Man was a branch of the divine tree and if earthly evolution had not changed this condition of things, his brain would have been but a flower of the same divine tree, his thoughts would have been reflected in his countenance as in a mirror but he would have had no consciousness of his own thoughts. Our Earth would have been a world of beings endowed with thoughts, but not with consciousness, a world of statues ensouled by the Gods, above all by Jahve or Jehovah. What was it that changed this order of things and how has man arrived at independence?

The Gods of the nature of Jahve were able to descend into the human brain. But other Spirits who, on the Moon, had been of the order of the Spirits of Fire, had not completed their evolution, and instead of penetrating into the brain of man on the Earth they mingled with his astral body. The astral body is composed of instincts, desires, passions, and it was there that those Spirits of Fire who had not attained the goal of evolution on the Moon, took refuge. They found a home in the animal nature of man where the passions unfold, and at the same time they imbued these passions with higher qualities. They poured the capacity for higher enthusiasm into the blood and the astral body of man. The gift of the Jehovistic Gods was the pure, cold form of the idea; but under the influence of these Spirits — we may speak of them as Luciferian Spirits — man became capable of enthusiasm for ideas, of being passionately for them or against them. The Jehovistic Gods gave form and shape to the human brain; the Luciferian Spirits set up the connection between the brain and the physical senses; they live in the nerve branches which end in the sense-organs. Lucifer has lived in us for as long as Jehovah.

The fact that his senses give man an objective consciousness of the world around him is due to the Luciferian Spirits. Human thought is the gift of the Gods; human consciousness is the gift of Lucifer. Lucifer lives in the astral body of man, and Lucifer's activity comes to expression at the point where the nerves give rise to feeling and perception. That is why the Serpent in Genesis says: ‘Your eyes shall be opened.’ These words must be taken literally, for it was by the Luciferian Spirits that the senses of man were opened.

The individualisation of consciousness is due to the senses. If man's thoughts were not related to the sense-world they would simply be reflections of the Divine — not knowledge but belief. The contradiction between faith and science is due to this dual origin of human thought. Faith turns to the eternal Ideas, the ‘Mother-Ideas’ lying in the bosom of the Gods. All science, all knowledge of the outer world by means of the senses owes its existence to the Luciferian Spirits. In man, the Luciferian principle and Divine Intelligence are combined. It is this fusion of opposing principles which makes evil possible for man but it also gives him the power of self-consciousness, choice and freedom. Only a being capable of individualisation could be thus helped by opposing elements within his being. If when he descended into matter, man had only received the form given by Jehovah, he would have remained an impersonal being. And so it was due to Lucifer that man was able to become truly man, a being independent of the Gods. Christ, or the Logos made manifest in man, is the Principle which enables him to ascend once again to God. - Rudolf Steiner

The Atlanteans were Sovereign Integrals before the Annunaki and Sirians created human bodies. They were individuated before being decieved into occupying physical embodiments and were capable of both individual thought, if you will, and collective thought and could move between the two with relative ease. Curious, that some Atlanteans escaped and did not take on the physical bodysuits. Perhaps, they made individual decisions not too? However, it was nothing like how limited and below capacity we operate in these very dense physcial creations. It was unlike now where we think we are all seaparate not only from each other but from all other life forms as well. These bodies are programmed and implanted to mar our perception to such a degree that we long forgot who and what we are as consciousness let alone acknowledging that this planet , earth has her own consciousness. It's not a dual consciousness to be both individual/collective it becomes polarized with judgement through comparison and whatever other program was developed and implemented to carry on with oppressing the SI. The oppression of the SI is paramount in keeping us depending on the HMS marred perception(s). The oppression of the SI has evolved to such a degree where what has worked before to keep us busy and dumbed down in terms of programs, is falling apart so now they want to add robotic and computerized technology to keep the game going. It's difficult to imagine what it is like to be capable of creative thought which can seem to be very individual and collective at the same time. It's just that when being fully aware of being a Sovereign Integral, again, that is what we are, fully conscious of being individual and collective at the same time. Absolute equality. We could never make known the unknown if we were only the collective consciousness that Steiner talks about. The Energetic Heart and it's role in all of this is unearthed again and has everything to do with this discussion. It is with Heart Intelligence that we completely bypass all of the programming and implants, Luciferian influence etc. It is what gives plasticity to the brain and reveals how the brain is a conduit or transmitter/receiver and not creator nor the source of anything. We have many implants and programs for all that is needed for the HMS to function with its mis and disinformation, lies and deception. The Heart is the centre(even though it has its own brain and neuro-network). It's a no brainer. However, I am not dissing Steiner he does make some very good points about how etheric passageways were added to surrounding the physical embodiment to keep it in check through programming and implants for oppressing the Sovereign Integral within by keeping it so busy with distraction and diversion in trying to maintain the life of the physical embodiment that it would never have time to question any of it. Steiner was brilliant in his time and added much to our greater understanding of who we are. I resepct so many over time who had the courage to share their understanding in regard to all of us understanding who and what we Truly are. Thank you Angelo.

Sovereign Integral - according to the WMMs' glossary is a state of consciousness that all Entities are in the process of developing ... The First beings, that incarnated with their habitats/planets/solar systems, into MEST, were not Sovereign Integrals - they were Sovereign Entities of the Central Universe ... according to the Glossary:

Sovereign IntegralThe Sovereign Integral is a state of consciousness whereby the entity and all itsvarious forms of expression and perception are integrated as a conscious wholeness.This is a state of consciousness that all entities are evolving towards, and at somepoint, each will reach a state of transformation that allows the entity and itsinstruments of experience (i.e., the human instrument) to become an integratedexpression that is aligned and in harmony with Source Intelligence

Sovereign Integral is not the name of a species of SECUs (aka Wingmakers) ALL SECUs have within their original template a component called the Sovereign Integral that inspires the Entity to reach its full potential via transformation. This component is so power-full that it inspires the SECU to incarnate into MEST even though the process fragments their own individuated consciousness/soul ... because above all - it seeks WHOLENESS =" to BECOME an integrated expression that is aligned and in harmony with Source Intelligence"

the fact that you have misunderstood this fundamental concept renders what theories you built upon this misunderstanding - out of alignment with what is Universally true... it is your personal Belief System, that is blocking your ability to comprehend this new intelligence ... apparently you BELIEVE that you are a Sovereign Integral - but you are not - it is defined as a component of the SECUs - in potential that can only be fully REALized, via the transformational process

snipped from the First Philo:

The entity model of expression is designed to explore new fields of vibration through biological instruments and transform through this process of discovery to a new level of understanding and expression as a Sovereign Integral. ... It is also the natural state of existence of the entity that has transformed beyond the evolution/saviorship model of existence and has removed itself from the controlling aspects of the Hierarchy through the complete activation of its embedded Source Codes. This is the level of capability that was “seeded” within the entity model of expression when it was initially conceived by First Source. All entities within the time-space universes are in various stages of the transformational experience and each is destined to achieve the Sovereign Integral level as their Source Codes become fully activated.

Anu did not create the SECUs - which includes the Human Instrument as one of its ORIGINAL components ... the second Philo reveals that the WINGMAKERS were created SPECIFICALLY to create the Human Instruments - and that their own HIs - and the HIs that they created, were "Light bodies" - and they were not sufficient - because they were not "biological instruments" that would allow them to gain the genuine experience that they needed to transform their state of consciousness - of all that is - including what exists in MEST ... so they went to MEST - to fulfill the purpose of their creation - and embodied a "biological instrument" that was prepared for them BY THEM before they incarnated in MEST - to use, to transform into the human instrument that could house a Sovereign Integral state of consciousness - and that would be integrated into the existing (fragmented) components of the SECU - and fused together by the Activation of their Source codes - to act as ONE complete/whole Consciousness of the individual Entity. So far they are the only species of SECUs who embody a "biological/plysical" Human Instrument ... which makes me wonder if the others - still in their light bodies, can even breathe?

The alterations that Anu made to the Human Instruments that the Wingmakers created, and came to MEST to inhabit SUPPRESSED (not oppressed) their Consciousness that was fragmented (willingly) during the Incarnational process ... and the Empire of Deception that he created (including Death and the Astral Plane) were designed to conceal the SECUs origins and destiny from them ... but the evolutionary process that was designed to enhance their conciousness to the point where they "remember" their First Point -which is the "self-realization of the Sovereign Integral" state of consciousness - can only be achieved via a personal transformation of the Entity's individuated consciousness - once it has restored its Wholeness... because the Source Codes can only be activated when their consciousness/soul is WHOLE

from the 2nd Philo This transformation of the entity is the pathway into wholeness and the recognition that the entity model of expression is a composite of forms and the formless that is unified in one energy, one consciousness. ... Thus, the entity is composed of both the formless identity of Source Intelligence and the formful identity of densified energy. While the formless is one, the formful is divested in many fragments of expression that isolate its consciousness as islands of perception and expression.The WingMakers are Sovereign Entities who will be transforming time-space universes from ladders of consciousness to inclusions of Source Reality.When this accessibility is complete and the Source Coding is fully activated, all entities will be part of a new cosmological structure. This new structure will invoke the next model of existence, which is already being developed within Source Reality by Source Intelligence and the Sovereign Entities.

you can BELIEVE what ever you choose Shay, but when you post it in the WMF it only exposes your ignorance of this new intelligence when it isn't aligned to what the LTO has revealed. You have resisted this awareness for 15 years now, well past time to kick your personal BS to the curb and OPEN YOUR MIND to what is UNIVERSALLY true... for all SECUs through-out all time and eternity

_________________"...to know this information and then remain passive—a pure observer—is a programmed response, and that is not an answer to how do I best serve truth? It is a denial of truth.” 5th Interview

Angelo, Mr Steiner obviously had a different perspective of god(s) (not to be confused with our one Creator) than the LTO ... It is my understanding that their is only one SECU who claims to be be God - of this Universe and he he created Angels and Demons, and the Satan to enforce his commandments - even though he breaks them and demands that we break them too ... In this age, we have expanded our consciousness , collectively and outgrown our dependency upon a "god" or anything else designed to "save us" from our self-created state of ignorance .

Anu, the self declared, "god " of this world, is not even the same species of SECU that we are - he can't "live" here for more than a few hours at a time, because he doesn't have a physical Human Instrument - and the density of our environment was designed to repel or prevent other SECUs from interfering with our species evolutionary development process ... therefore any mention of God/Satan/Anu is counter-productive of our understanding of what is Universally true (for all SECUs) in this new Age of Transparency... even though Anu created the stage of Duality upon which the illusion of Separation is caste - he designed the supporting Hierarchies to distort and conceal our true origins and destiny because he can not infringe upon our Free Will or force us to serve him and his secret agenda - to enslave us and serve-himself with the Earth's renounces - we must be manipulated and genetically altered to conform to his agenda, of our "own free will" ... and choose to be dependent - even though he can not (and would not) save us ... but instead saturates our environment with a frequency of FEAR to manipulate us into supporting a belief in mortality - that is based upon inequality - and his personal perception of our "worthyness" in his conspiracy with others to enslave us and steal our planets resources to serve themselves.

This Planet, was designed by the Wingmakers, (for the Wingmakers) to provide the individual entity (SECU) with everything it needs to fulfill its destiny ... There is no need for a "god" - especially one as judgmental and lacking virtues as he is ... all we need to do, to free ourselves from his control, is to release our dependency upon the Central System that Anu has created - and re-establish our relationship with Nature ... and he will no longer have the ability to control us, or more importantly, suppress our consciousness of why we are here - now.

_________________"...to know this information and then remain passive—a pure observer—is a programmed response, and that is not an answer to how do I best serve truth? It is a denial of truth.” 5th Interview

Angelo, Mr Steiner obviously had a different perspective of god(s) (not to be confused with our one Creator) than the LTO ... It is my understanding that their is only one SECU who claims to be be God - of this Universe and he he created Angels and Demons, and the Satan to enforce his commandments - even though he breaks them and demands that we break them too ... In this age, we have expanded our consciousness , collectively and outgrown our dependency upon a "god" or anything else designed to "save us" from our self-created state of ignorance .

The words quoted were taken by a scribe, or typist, from lectures in a hall, and then translated by whomever into English from German. These lectures are approximations. Steiner spoke of these gods, as gods, not Gods. He referred to them in a spiritual way, as beings, actual beings that exist (does Anu exist?), and which influence mankind. Beings who are as gods. I think you're getting mesmerized by the letters and words, and linear descriptions, but not the actual truth. What he described was the gods creating the conditions of the mind in which thought, self thought, could occur. They gave us their minds, and this fragmented us into streams of thought, searching, probing into wherever thought goes, creating a vast sensory network we call the universe. Which we are currently exploring, into deeper and denser realms.

There is something I have recognised with Rudolf Steiner – he was a Lyricus teacher. There is something deeply familiar to me about him, in many ways. His compassion for humanity was great and he knew his role here on Earth. His knowledge of Science, Arts, Music, Movement, and Spirit – as in who we really are, he contributed to help us navigate our way out of the quagmire we are stuck in.

I have not studied his works in depth because during the impressionable years of growing up, it was my intuitive promise not to search in all spiritual texts, but to try to find something in me. But still he is one I come back to with the greatest of respect and love. And strangely as of late, I feel it is time to stretch and fill the gaps in my knowledge that I yearn for, and he is one I would choose to connect with in his sharing, and consider.

He also did a lot for the way of the child, and even though I suffered so much, I went to one of his beautiful schools from beginning to end. I appreciated his contribution to steer us towards a holistic education, because that is where so much starts.

There is something I have recognised with Rudolf Steiner – he was a Lyricus teacher...... he is one I come back to with the greatest of respect and love. And strangely as of late, I feel it is time to stretch and fill the gaps in my knowledge that I yearn for, and he is one I would choose to connect with in his sharing, and consider.

The greatest difficulty in studying Steiner is transcripts and translations of varying quality, where the words once in English lose some of their essence and can therefore be difficult to understand (some books are translated well). If you are into reading older writings and can read with an open intuitive eye, and transplant what you know from the Wingmaker materials, the whole of what he says becomes much clearer, and supremely insightful, even at times prophetic.

If you are into reading older writings and can read with an open intuitive eye, and transplant what you know from the Wingmaker materials, the whole of what he says becomes much clearer, and supremely insightful, even at times prophetic.

That should not be too difficult for me to do at all. I’ve decided to visit a specialist Steiner bookshop early next week. I am ready for the expansion, I will probably move it through it swiftly.

personally I would be hard pressed to come up with something more boring than studying the Philosophy of people who lived in the past ... I wouldn't walk across the street to listen to a living philosopher, even if I had a free ticket, at this point, I believe that the WMMs have clearly revealed the meaning/purpose of Life and I'm not looking for the answer to those types of question any more.

IMO, the WMMs are categorized as Philosophies because they do not contain any provable facts ... James says that they are not A Philosophy, but obviously they contain four philosophy papers :

Life Principals of the Sovereign IntegralShifting Models of ExistenceThe Blueprint of ExplorationBeliefs and their Energy Systems

and they do explain a great deal about why we believe what we believe and how our personal beliefs influence each of our choices as well as our "way of life" collectively ... I find that these papers are also exposing the workings of the Genetic Mind of the Species - as much as the individual's mind. It is easy to ignore, that we are responsible for what is Globally acceptable - and written into the GM's files - or not. It was quite interesting to me, to discover that the GM just correlates the information that we submit - those are the only "facts" that it has and they are constantly changing. Not to be confused with the "higher mind" of the Individual (that is enhanced by first hand experience) the Collective Mind of the Species the final Authority, only on what IS ("true") - collectively acceptable (PC) to the species, is based upon their BELIEFs in the dogma that conceals the facts.

what we are focused on and Philosophers question ourselves about - is not the facts - because we claim to have forgotten the facts and they are obscured by dogma - but the "beliefs" that the majority of us have in common... that created the dogma that surrounds and blocks out Source Reality (that we could otherwise SEE for ourselves) and has us pre-occupied with needless rituals.

It is evident that we can believe anything we want ... and manifest it as well - so why don't we believe in our SELF and manifest a Sovereign Integral state of consciousness that will save us from falling victim to dogma and rituals? Why, when we talk about the materials, do we compare them to the failed philosophies of the past? and ignore that they are the answer to all our "deep intetectual" questions

in one of the Lyricus discourses, the Teacher asks the student --- who do you trust above all others ... and the student answered ... his Self, and I am sure that everyone who reads that discourse agrees with him ... but if that were TRUE of just all those who read this discourse - there would be a couple of million transformed individuals assisting others to come to the self-realization of the full potential that the WMMs reveal is available to us all ... and there is not much evidence of that, even though there is nothing that prevents anyone from experiencing the Wholeness Navigator - no one wants to come out of their comfort zone to do it.

_________________"...to know this information and then remain passive—a pure observer—is a programmed response, and that is not an answer to how do I best serve truth? It is a denial of truth.” 5th Interview

I'm not so sure, the process of evolving up out of the matrix gives birth to the SI, the Atlanteans were 'naive', something an SI could never be.

Thanks for sharing!

Angelo

The SI is. It will not be birthed so much as us being reaquainted with what has always been us. This Hologram of Delusion is but one journey or adventure. It's not the only one although it's hard to imagine what others would be like outside of this delusion hologram...or on the otherhand maybe not. It is the SI that was used to give life to created human bodies by the Annunaki and Sirians, while the Sirians and Annunaki created programs and implants to suppress knowledge of being SIs from the Atlanteans who inhabited the bodies. It's in the Camelot Interview that James first says this about the Annunaki. Have you read it? The Atlanteans were deceived by the Annunaki to inhabit the bodies created for mining gold for them. The Atlanteans didn't know what deception was since they never encountered it before . Call it naive , some call it a new experience such as all brand new experiences are. You don't know until you have it. However, there were some Atlanteans who didn't and/or wouldn't inhabit the bodies so escaped into dimensional pockets instead, remaining the consciously aware Sovereign Integrals they are. Perhaps, the Annunaki and Sirians just didn't resonate with them, them being Sovereign as well as Integral. The escaped Atlanteans are conscious of being SIs. We are not, we think we are these bodies, minds and emotions and look outside of ourselves to know who and what we are and that we have/need to do that. When you are truly Sovereign you already know it. It's what the Quantum breath and other exercises are about. Not like in this Hologram of Delusion. The escaped Atlanteans don't have physical bodies like us, just like the Annunaki and Sirians don't either, having created and working this hologram from other less dense dimensions where they created these bodies from using their own DNA as a blueprint. If you read both Interviews it's all there. Good thing. It's best to read the Camelot Interview before the 5th Neruda Interview because it gives you a larger context and understanding of what is said in this one. This so resonates with me like no other. I have found over the years that these materials and the practise of the 6 Heart Virtues only expand my awareness if not take me closer to me essence because of how much resonates with me. As an aside, why do you equate SI consciousness with being omniscient? Do you think of it as being omnipotent as well? And if so what frame of reference are you using? The Hologram of Delusion or having ever glimpsed the state of being a SI? Thanx again Angelo!

I believe that you are confusing the component of the SECU call the Sovereign Integral, with the potential that each of us have to fully develop the Sovereign Integral state of Consiousness ... the Sovereign Integral is in potential until it is fully realized by the Entity and it activates its Source Codes ... don't expect that will be done until the Entity restores its fragmented consciousness back to a state of wholeness ... it isn't something that just happens - like puberty ... it has to be triggered by the Human Instrument --- acording to the First Philo:

Nevertheless, the human instrument is critical in facilitating the transformational experience and causing it to trigger—like a metamorphosis—the integration of the formful identities into the Sovereign Integral. This is the next stage of perception and expression for the entity model, and it is activated when the entity designs its reality from life principles that are symbolic of Source Reality, as opposed to the reality of an external source that is bound to the evolution/saviorship model of existence. https://www.wingmakers.com/content/philosophy/

it specifically mentions a metamorphosis (transformation) that integrates the FORMFUL identity (that woud be the Human Instrument) INTO the Sovereign Integral (state of consciousness) ... I don't know how it can be any clearer Shay, it is say TWICE ... and made clear that that doesn't happen until the entity designs its reality ... so the Entity is not "the Sovereign Integral" - the Sovereign Integral state of consciousness - is the full activation of the Sovereign Integral component of the Entity ... right now it is being used to power the HI, but we need to step out of the realms of the mind (QP) to interact with it .

I know it seems complicated, but it is just as natural, as when a baby is born with the potential to have a baby ... she is born with all the necessary equipment just like the the Entity is born with a SI, but her potential is not realized, until her body is ready to reproduce... and (hopefully) INdependent of any external source - in the case of the SI's activation - it can not be bound to the evolution/savior ship model of existence

I don't know why I bother to quote the materials to you, because you just ignore them and stick with some personal belief that You are a species called the Sovereign Integral ... because what I quoted earlier said that not even the Wingmakers were Sovereign Integrals - they, like all the rest of the species that "carry a Soul/entity consiousness" are Sovereign ENTITIES - with the potential to develop a Sovereign Integral state of (full) consciousness.

please try to bring yourself into alignment with what the materials say, Shay,

Sovereign IntegralThe Sovereign Integral is a state of consciousness whereby the entity and all itsvarious forms of expression and perception are integrated as a conscious wholeness.This is a state of consciousness that all entities are evolving towards, and at somepoint, each will reach a state of transformation that allows the entity and itsinstruments of experience (i.e., the human instrument) to become an integratedexpression that is aligned and in harmony with Source Intelligence

_________________"...to know this information and then remain passive—a pure observer—is a programmed response, and that is not an answer to how do I best serve truth? It is a denial of truth.” 5th Interview

Personally I would be hard pressed to come up with something more boring than studying the Philosophy of people who lived in the past ... I wouldn't walk across the street to listen to a living philosopher, even if I had a free ticket, at this point.

Starduster, thank you for sharing your opinion, it has been noted. I myself find much relevance in the insights of great persons, especially those who have gained clairvoyance as a working faculty. In the case of Rudolf Steiner his insights into the workings of nature, and the human condition are very much still applicable.

I recognize from the many threads which you frequent in this forum starduster that much the same message is repeated over and over again, a regurgitation of definitions, and a strict didactic approach to the WM materials which you provide wholesale, as if others have requested your unending and unlimited knowledge. I opened this thread to engage, to communicate, not so much to be educated in the dogma of the WM materials as derived by you. I've read the materials, from top to bottom, several times, I have a good grasp, I'm not looking for an education here. You may feel obliged to promote your perspective here, but be wary of riding roughshod over what others feel to be important because it may not align with your definitions of what may or may not be meaningful, this is antithetical to the behaviour of an integrated and whole person.

Cheers,

Angelo

Last edited by AngeloZ on Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

. However, there were some Atlanteans who didn't and/or wouldn't inhabit the bodies so escaped into dimensional pockets instead, remaining the consciously aware Sovereign Integrals they are.

Hi Shayalana It is my understanding that the Sovereign Integral can only come about through the self realization of wholeness, as the entity traverses through the fragmentation of the human experience. Dare I say that the SI's will be 'greater than the gods'.

Shayalana wrote:

As an aside, why do you equate SI consciousness with being omniscient? Do you think of it as being omnipotent as well? And if so what frame of reference are you using? The Hologram of Delusion or having ever glimpsed the state of being a SI?

As a note, I've read the Camelot interviews several times. The question above is a little perplexing to me, I'm not sure I've discussed omniscience or omnipotence have I? Maybe you can elaborate for me.

Personally I would be hard pressed to come up with something more boring than studying the Philosophy of people who lived in the past ... I wouldn't walk across the street to listen to a living philosopher, even if I had a free ticket, at this point.

Starduster, thank you for sharing your opinion, it has been noted. I myself find much relevance in the insights of great persons, especially those who have gained clairvoyance as a working faculty. In the case of Rudolf Steiner his insights into the workings of nature, and the human condition are very much still applicable.

I recognize from the many threads which you frequent in this forum starduster that much the same message is repeated over and over again, a regurgitation of definitions, and a strict didactic approach to the WM materials which you provide wholesale, as if others have requested your unending and unlimited knowledge. I opened this thread to engage, to communicate, not so much to be educated in the dogma of the WM materials as derived by you. I've read the materials, from top to bottom, several times, I have a good grasp, I'm not looking for an education here. You may feel obliged to promote your perspective here, but be wary of riding roughshod over what others feel to be important because it may not align with your definitions of what may or may not be meaningful, this is antithetical to the behaviour of an integrated and whole person.

Cheers,

Angelo

Thank you for noticing, I am sorry that you can not appreciate, the effort I make to demonstrate some behavior intelligence, when I discuss the WMMs in the WMF - as suggested ... you read the materials right, the purpose of the forum was defined by James, so I take every opportunity to the tools that the LTO has provided to practice staying focused on the purpose of this Forum - I don't consider it "reguritation" it is letting genuine compassion (the desire to share this new intelligence) flow ... I consider it an act of Valor to point out injustice when someone distorts the materials, I really don't know what else you would expect when you joined the forum and read the Webmaster's welcome.

... I am sure that Rudolf Steiner, has his own dedicated webpage, maybe you should contribute you thoughts about him there - or discuss him in PMs to you heart's content ... so is the "Body Matrix" one of Rudolf's teachings? or did the conversation just "go there" ... because I just assumed that we were going to be talking about the "human instrument" ... because this IS the Wingmaker Forum that people join to discuss the Wingmaker's materials ... and I am not defining them - I am quoting them so that there isn't any mis-understandings about why we are here ... which isn't to discuss your opinion of members ... its to express some behavioral intelligence

_________________"...to know this information and then remain passive—a pure observer—is a programmed response, and that is not an answer to how do I best serve truth? It is a denial of truth.” 5th Interview

... this IS the Wingmaker Forum that people join to discuss the Wingmaker's materials ... and I am not defining them - I am quoting them so that there isn't any mis-understandings about why we are here ... which isn't to discuss your opinion of members ... its to express some behavioral intelligence

So just to be clear, is this your website? I honestly don't know, I have no idea who runs this site. Do you run this site?

I don't recall the former forum having such tight bounds of discussion, can we not interrelate topics, or must we remain entirely within the bounds of the written works here? I will have to look at some other posts in the forum to gauge how far off track things are allowed to get.

If you are the owner and/or administrator of this site I would have no choice but to follow your rules, if you are not the owner and/or administrator why do you feel it's your job to define the limits of the discussion?

personally I would be hard pressed to come up with something more boring than studying the Philosophy of people who lived in the past

I can understand that if there is nothing more to explore, if there are no more questions to ask.

I do agree that we must listen to our own voice within, rather than blindly follow others – in fact that is a fundamental aspect of my own journey and primarily the reason why I did not study the spiritual texts of the past. In regards to Steiner, I’m not actually interested in studying the facts of his personal life or his philosophy on life as it pertained to 100 years ago.

My interest arises out of having questions and curiosities based on my experiences – experiences that do not appear to be common in this world, but nevertheless it interweaves through my reality. Much of it is extra sensory, and multi-dimensional. The problem is there are blank spaces in my knowledge about this and other things that are not covered in the Wingmakers materials at this stage of its release, and yet it feels to be important to some greater purpose in my life. It has been nudging me, even flowing through my dream state quite vividly and is what urged me to join this forum.

I believe questions regarding other states of reality and how to use extra-sensory perception etc, will eventually become more relevant to other Wingmaker readers as we gradually move towards the SI state in the coming decades. But at the present time it is not widely discussed at all, and if I wait to be spoon fed information I could be waiting a long time. So I’ll look to someone who I recognise in our past as being a Lyricus teacher who shared a lot of information about these things. One day James too will leave this planet and I’m sure many people in the future will find his works relevant to their personal studies.

I do not mean to cause any trouble, and can discuss this privately if this is generally preferred.

... is the "Body Matrix" one of Rudolf's teachings? or did the conversation just "go there"

The Body Matrix is actually a very interesting subject to explore, and I think we’ve hardly scratched the surface. I’d like to get into that more, and already I’m wondering how that it plays in relation to healers and healing. While it is not officially written about (yet) in the WM, it is shown in much of the digital art work. It is in the header pictures of many papers, on the SI website, in parts of the new website. It’s not too hard to see it. What is that saying to us? I wonder.

My interest arises out of having questions and curiosities based on my experiences – experiences that do not appear to be common in this world, but nevertheless it interweaves through my reality. Much of it is extra sensory, and multi-dimensional. The problem is there are blank spaces in my knowledge about this and other things that are not covered in the Wingmakers materials at this stage of its release, and yet it feels to be important to some greater purpose in my life. It has been nudging me, even flowing through my dream state quite vividly and is what urged me to join this forum.

I believe questions regarding other states of reality and how to use extra-sensory perception etc, will eventually become more relevant to other Wingmaker readers as we gradually move towards the SI state in the coming decades. But at the present time it is not widely discussed at all, and if I wait to be spoon fed information I could be waiting a long time. So I’ll look to someone who I recognise in our past as being a Lyricus teacher who shared a lot of information about these things. One day James too will leave this planet and I’m sure many people in the future will find his works relevant to their personal studies.

Sirryah, your response was both insightful and understanding. However, I cringe at the thought that any of us must provide an explanation for the direction of this discussion, my mention of Steiner, while being completely within the bounds of this forum, was directed towards you, if others decide to interject their own biases and perspective within that framework that is an agenda all their own, and has no real bearing. Who is to say what has meaningful resonance between two or more souls, and who is to define the boundaries of what is acceptable and what is not? I find it telling, more than anything, that some who proclaim behavioral intelligence exhibit much more didactic rigidity than creative and compassionate communication. It seems in certain arena's of thought, especially in the 'spiritual' communities, self willing teachers jump out of the woodwork in every direction to educate you and set you straight! As if for some reason they have been ordained by the universe to be the harbingers of truth, which they will willingly bludgeon you over the head with . I can discern very quickly where my energy is best spent by reading the intentions of people, that is a form of clairvoyance that I have developed, it saves me a great deal of time and resources and is one of the reasons I find the assertions of most self willed 'teachers' to be simply misguided.

Sirryah, Steiner's 'How to Know Higher Worlds' is a forerunner to the Heart Virtues which James discusses, and has helped me immeasurably in the direction of developing higher order reasoning and intuitive insight, it's worth a look in that at this point it covers terrain that has not yet been disclosed here in the WM materials.

personally I would be hard pressed to come up with something more boring than studying the Philosophy of people who lived in the past

I can understand that if there is nothing more to explore, if there are no more questions to ask.

I do agree that we must listen to our own voice within, rather than blindly follow others – in fact that is a fundamental aspect of my own journey and primarily the reason why I did not study the spiritual texts of the past. In regards to Steiner, I’m not actually interested in studying the facts of his personal life or his philosophy on life as it pertained to 100 years ago.

My interest arises out of having questions and curiosities based on my experiences – experiences that do not appear to be common in this world, but nevertheless it interweaves through my reality. Much of it is extra sensory, and multi-dimensional. The problem is there are blank spaces in my knowledge about this and other things that are not covered in the Wingmakers materials at this stage of its release, and yet it feels to be important to some greater purpose in my life. It has been nudging me, even flowing through my dream state quite vividly and is what urged me to join this forum.

I believe questions regarding other states of reality and how to use extra-sensory perception etc, will eventually become more relevant to other Wingmaker readers as we gradually move towards the SI state in the coming decades. But at the present time it is not widely discussed at all, and if I wait to be spoon fed information I could be waiting a long time. So I’ll look to someone who I recognise in our past as being a Lyricus teacher who shared a lot of information about these things. One day James too will leave this planet and I’m sure many people in the future will find his works relevant to their personal studies.

I do not mean to cause any trouble, and can discuss this privately if this is generally preferred.

Cheers.

I appreciate your open mindedness - and your willingness to use this forum for its created purpose ... before James set the guideline of the forum, it was a free-for-all in here. People promoting themselves, products, belief systems and comparing the materials with every teaching known to man... some just joined the forum to recruit members into their own groups. For all appearances, the WMF was just one of a hundred "new age chatrooms"... the only thing unique about it was its name

At the same time as James, established the guidelines for the forum, (at the conclusion of the second session of Q and A by the members) he made clear that the WMMs were NOT the teaching of "man" - that he didn't "create" them, and that the LTO members didn't create them either ... but that they "discovered" them and were committed to fulfilling the purpose of OUR creation by "transfering (this)Knowledge" to everyone. And that they had been trying to do that for the past eleven thousand years - with little or no success due to the agenda of Anu to Suppress Consciousness and to conceal our Origins and Destiny from us. He told us that we needed to "immerse" ourselves in these materials, and not to compare them with the teachings of men, if we didn't want to become confused. ... we needed to stay focused.

shortly after the guidelines were established, the WMF collapsed because we weren't discussing the materials, for months at a time... it wasn't serving its intended purpose - so when Solaris offered the members another forum - with the same guidelines (as quoted in his "Welcome") we all appreciated the second chance to discuss the materials - without being "monitored"... and that is what makes this forum unique ... it is the only forum on the web that isn't censored. It is the only forum on the web that is dedicated to discussing the Wingmakers' materials, and things the members feel are related to the materials ... It's not limiting anyone, from posting anything they are interested in discussing, but the topic that they create to discuss, reveal their interest in discussing the WMMs or not ...

since the WMF is a self-regulated forum, it is up to the members to remind each other, when they are abusing their membership. Usually the member who's agenda (other than discussing the WWMs) has been exposed they become defensive - and abusive - and starts spouting their "rights" to discuss anything they want - while ignoring the fact that they agreed, when they joined the forum, to stay within the guidelines James established for Wingmaker forums. I believe that the members who honestly joined to discuss the WMMs, appreciate how unique this forum is now ... when we ARE all discussing the WMMs, because as revealed by James, when he established the guidelines, there is a "kindling effect" that takes place that allows personal wisdom (that which we all resonate with) to surface when we ARE discussing the materials ... it connects us to the same "sensory data stream" that the Wingmakers communicate on, and allows us to be inspired by them - and share our experience while using the materials to transform our selves.

Once we are whole, we will all have ESP, everyone will be clairvoyant, and be able to use telepathy, and so much more - we were originally designed to be Interdimensional, and multi-versal ... we don't need craft or devices to transport us around the Universe, we have the ability to envision ourselves anywhere, change frequencies, as well as to adapt to any existing frequencies - to become one with all forms of life - experience the same emotions, thoughts and inspirations as they are. We can move outside of the mind(s) influence, in timelessness - that doesn't require space.

to me the ridicule I receive for being responsible member of this unique forum is an opportunity to practice using the tools that the LTO has provided, it gives anyone of us the opportunity to express behavior intelligence by doing what is suggested by them, to Master my self ... it creates the frequencies of the Transformation Mastership Model of Existence and allows me to be confident ... it accelerates the process so its hard to be anything but grateful

_________________"...to know this information and then remain passive—a pure observer—is a programmed response, and that is not an answer to how do I best serve truth? It is a denial of truth.” 5th Interview

... and that is what makes this forum unique ... it is the only forum on the web that isn't censored.

starduster, if I was new and didn't have a recognition of, and understanding of your communications on this board, I might be fooled into thinking you were reasonable, but I know otherwise. Do you actually think that this board is overflowing with activity? Is it a hub of thriving discussion about the WMM? Do you see fit to close off all discussion that doesn't agree with you? Have you become the new clergy that dictates what is and what is not 'on topic'? This forum is basically lifeless, you seem to hold a quarter of all the postings by volume here? Is that the environment you prefer?

James has no links to this forum whatsoever, not from any of his sites that I can find, and I can understand why, the forums always devolve into dispute. That is what he meant when he closed the forum, the issue was not discussion, but personal conflicts, which took away from the original purpose. The dominate presence here at the moment is you starduster - starduster, starduster and more starduster. What is it that has you playing the supposed role of guardian of the materials? Are they so fragile that they must be protected from impure suggestions? You need to release your overbearing grip and let be. You suggest I am being defensive, while this forum undoubtedly is your ground, it is you who is defending, not me, I have nothing to defend here, I'm simply flabbergasted at your audacity. It's astonishing really.

Angelo, the WMF isn't about me ... it exists so that people can discuss THE MATERIALS ... how simple is that?

go through the Archives ... 95% of all my posts include quotes from the WMMs that I am here to discuss ... I am not "translating" them or interpreting them ... I am discussing the the actual materials... and using them and the forum --- as suggested.

Obviously I can not prevent anyone from discussing anything... but I can point out when someone isn't discussing the materials - and they have some other agenda, even though they agree to discuss the materials when they join the forum, which makes them dishonest.

Either you are here to discuss the materials or you are here with some other agenda in mind which is an injustice to those who joined the forum to discuss the materials.... but it isn't my "fault" if no one wants to discuss the materials so you can't blame me for their lack of interest or their unwillingness to stay within the guidelines that James established.

If you can point out where I have any other agenda or where I have "crossed the line" - please by all means - do so - so I an bring myself into alignment - but from my perspective - it is obvious, that you are just here to disrupt what few discussion of the materials that are going on ... I don't need to expose you, you exposed yourself... but it does give me the opportunity to practice expressing Valor.

PS I don't believe it was James that closed down the original forum but that Mark did it with James' permission, knowing that Ernest was willing to open another one the next day ... I do know that James insisted that it NOT be monitored and that he has only gotten involved with it on two occasions when a few members were abusing their membership and using the WMF as a free platform to promote their own BSs that had nothing to do with the WMMs.

_________________"...to know this information and then remain passive—a pure observer—is a programmed response, and that is not an answer to how do I best serve truth? It is a denial of truth.” 5th Interview

Last edited by starduster on Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

You do your best to poison the well, which is what you seem to thrive at. Do you feel the need to respond to every post in here? It's trying having to deal with your belligerence, you really should find a second hobby.

starduster wrote:

...but from my perspective - it is obvious, that you are just here to disrupt what few discussion of the materials that are going on ... I don't need to expose you, you exposed yourself... but it does give me the opportunity to practice expressing Valor.

Yes you've exposed me starduster, congratulations. Now starduster there are hundreds of posts on this site where you can practice your valor, have at it. You're not adding anything to this discussion.

please give example where you believe that I am trying to "poison the well"

I reply to every post in the wmf, it is, from my perspective the polite thing to do ... I appreciate it when people respond to what I post, and am simply "doing unto others, what I would have them do unto me" ... I don't judge which post are "worthy" of my response, like so many others, who only reply to members that they agree with ... I respond to them all, after giving others the opportunity to respond first ... I believe everyone's perspectives are valuable ... and I appreciate everyones participation in the discussions because they create a "kindling effect" that is open to inspiration. I believe that ignoring someone's post is IGNOREant and resisting the awareness of what they took the time to contribute.

PS you want to chit chat, and talk about yourself, or any subject (inc the WMMs) go to SUMBOLA, Earnest is the webmaster of that forum too... I think you will feel much more comfortable there discussing dead people's failed philosophies of the meaning of life (before the WMMs were introduced) ... but I don't think you will get away with bashing members, because it is monitored . I've not seen any of Mr Steiner books posted in there, maybe you can contribute them to the chat board... that seems to be the main theme of that forum ... "the classics"

this isn't the same forum that you left eight years ago after 12 posts, but it does have the same guidelines as the one you left ... and I am not the same person that I was 8 years ago either - my understanding of the materials has been enhanced by over a thousand members who shared their perspectives of them - and left -only to return again - years later in the same state of consciousness as when they left ... because I immersed myself in these materials - as James suggested that we all do (and most ignored) and Ive been discussing these materials daily, for over a dozen years ... I never got bored and left, and I continue to learn something new from every discussion - every day... and I transfer that knowledge all over the web - on the other forums that I frequent.

I am demonstrating behavioral intelligence by doing what the LTO suggest that we all do ... not just talking about it ... I'm living it - it is the first place I go in the morning, and I ponder what we discuss all day and it is the last place that I go each night ... and I take what I have discovered from other's perspectives, into my meditations - create my merkaba, using the HV technique of toning, and marinate them in the heart of IT, to neutralize them ... and then I do a QP to get my Sovereign Integral's perspective of them ... I contribute my breath daily to the Earth, as suggested in the Rising Heart paper, and I contribute authentic Compassion to the Grid of Compassion, daily as well - as suggested in the EVT website ... Once a year I dance to the Grand Cycle, read the poetry and I listen to the music through-out the year ... I have the Art hanging through-out my home and have appreciated it being here, for a over a decade now. Oh yeah, I build a fire, every year, on the night of the shortest day of the year and recite the poem that inspires me to do so... after which I howl at the full moon and all of nature joins me in that song.

I do these things because I love the sense of satisfaction and accomplishment they give me ... they allow me to "give back" --- not just receive but to transmit- consciously. I spend a grand total of 15 minutes a day focused on my transformation ... really not much of an effort involved, considering the resulting reward of full consciousness

but more than that, I have released my dependency upon the Hierarchies ... I have cut all ties to them, except for my need for electricity and gas (but I do have stand-bys). I grow and raise all my food and medicine... in partnership with Nature. I am Sovereign, and totally Independent, which satisfies the requirements of my First Point. My perspective of Life changed dramatically when I stopped believing in Dualities, kicked my personal BS to the curb ... and stopped making Judgments based upon what Anu values or not. I treat everyone as my equal, even though I know better than to expect the same treatment, it doesn't stop me from "doing the right thing" or doing what comes naturally to me. I didn't create my personality to please anyone, it is my expression of my individuated consciousness ... I am being me - the entity that I was created to be - I don't wear masks or costumes - I don't have a "profession" now but I have had several in the service of other - and I do have a great deal of experience assisting others to get over their self-inflicted limitations. My major interest in this life has been focused on Death - and I learned more from James, about it, in a few short sentences than I did after 20 years of research...because I keep and open mind.

I trust my heart's Intuitive Intelligence that resonates with the LTO's "work" and their Universal perspective gained by thousands of years of research observing "human nature". I have positioned myself outside of my (family) comfort zone to be able to flow with the sensory data streams that these materials travel into the earth's environment on in their purest form - I am tuned to their frequencies and receiving evolving inspiration during my immersion. I am humbled/empowered by what they reveal and grateful to have the opportunity to participate consciously in the transformation process. I demonstrate behavior intelligence by doing what is suggested in the WMMs, to bring myself into alignment with the Plan of First Source ... and nothing stops the steady flow of authentic Appreciation, Compassion, Forgiveness, Humility, Understanding and Valor from moving through me without distortion

I would like to believe that I am prepared to activate my Source Codes, when that moment in time comes - because I have done everything that the LTO has suggested a person should do - to the best of my abilities for well over a decade now ... my relationship with Nature and the Universal Entity couldn't be better or any more "magical" to me - they surpass my imagination and any expectations I might of had, of their ability to provide for my every need while endeavoring to achieve my First Point in this current life-time... and my genuine gratitude has accelerated the process (as predicted) ...

I am not seeking attention or recognition, I don't need "proof", approval, or permission to be who I AM ... and as long as I stay within the guide lines of the purpose of this forum, and I am doing exactly what I agreed to do when I joined this forum - I am fault-less whether you agree with my "style" or not... it is what it is, by design... exactly as our Creator intended when he created the Plan of First Source (the Blueprint of Exploration) and I agreed to participate in it - whole-heatedly... I trust that IT has my best interests in mind along with each member the rest of the Species that It created to be ITs Partners in this great and noble endeavor to project unconditional love into every nook and cranny of ITs Universe of Universes via individuals with a fully developed Sovereign Integral state of Consciousness... that lets FSI flow through them without distorting it... which James say, takes lots of Practice.

so what have you been doing for the past eight years towards achieving your First Point? I am interested in knowing what you consider more important ... and it isn't a "hobby" of mine - its my way of living unconflicted.

PPS, this forum may not be listed in the official webpage, but it is the first one that comes up on google's search engine

_________________"...to know this information and then remain passive—a pure observer—is a programmed response, and that is not an answer to how do I best serve truth? It is a denial of truth.” 5th Interview

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