Fine by me. If the Orthodox Church has to define what it can and cannot discuss according to the lowest common denominator of the views of those who are thinking of joining it, then I think I'd want out.

Agreed. That's the thinking of the Willow Creek Church and its progeny (I was a part of one of those once, and the whole "seeker-sensitive" idea was one of my major reasons for leaving).

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"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

^I agree. I went to a seeker sensitive type of church for a little while and since they're based on pulling in new people, they usually have no substance. I heard a lot of sermons about something or other with some biblical reference and heartfelt rock and roll worship, but to this day I have no idea what they were talking about. I tried getting involved in a bible study in the same church and it always disintegrated into separate conversations about plans for the weekend or whose ex-wife was doing some crazy thing or whatever else. I quit bringing my bible to it since we never actually studied it. In my experience, the seeker sensitive churches are little more than coffee hour with some mild motivational speech.

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Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. -- Douglas Adams

The Holy Orthodox Church will never give in to feminism. A look-alike might, possibly from the ranks of those who follow the Meletian Calendar. Practicing the outwards forms of faith without the internal spirit will easily give way to all kinds of innovation to keep pace with so-called progress. It seems to me only the Russians and JP have a semblance of Holy Tradition and of course some Greek Old Calendarists.

Certain people, such as Bp. Kallistos, say that we should talk about it rather than running away from the issue. There isn't really a large movement for the ordination of women in the Orthodox Church.

What is there to talk about? The people that say "we should talk about it", just want to pull a liberal Protestant move. They want to be modern. They want to have Women priests(and one day Bishops too...just like the gnostic loving Episcopals they look up too and soo want to be like). That is what the talks are going to come to. This already happened in Protestant land. The former Protestants that became Orthodox.....like myself, know what's going on. We know what they are trying to do. It already happened in Protestant World. What is there to talk about? IF the answer is not no, then what is there to talk about? They can't fool anyone. Converts know what's going on........they can't dupe anyone with the "talk lingo".

I love BP. Kallistos, but I've noticed that he's been changing over the years towards the left. I no longer want to buy his new edition of the "Orthodox Church". I can't give that book to conservative and moderate Protestants. Only Liberal gnostic loving and bodily resurrection denying Protestants would want to read that book.

And you know what they say? Oh, Let's talk about it! Let's talk about the possibility of his body not rising from the dead, lets talk about the possibility of him not performing miracles.....let's talk about it......we shouldn't run away from it.

If the answer is not no, then what is there to talk about?

He lives in England, so he is surrounded by Liberal Protestantism, so maybe he is trying to please them. Or maybe they are constantly speaking in his ear. They listen to him speak, and once he says something they don't like.....they put pressure on him to change his mind.

Or maybe the World Council of Churches or the National Council of Churches are putting pressure on him to "SLOWLY" embrace women priests.

I once heard a Roman Catholic on EWTN say that in an old edition of "The Orthodox Church" he said that the ORthodox are against contraception. Then in a later edition, he said that it's up to the individual family.

If this is true, then he is slowly trying to push for the ordaination of women priests.

We need to leave the World Council of Churches, and National Council of Churches, before they turn us into just another Liberal Protestant church.

I pray that the economy of the Western World collapse. OR that Russia pressures the Western World through Oil to embrace more conservative views.

Something needs to happen for the Western World is Hell bound.

JNORM888

« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 03:53:25 PM by jnorm888 »

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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

Agreed. That's the thinking of the Willow Creek Church and its progeny (I was a part of one of those once, and the whole "seeker-sensitive" idea was one of my major reasons for leaving).

We can't forget that at the end of the day, people are people. We should not ignore the fact that being raised in the Western World is gonna influence all of us.

The Orthodox are no exception to this rule. It hurts to see some cave in, but we are products of our culture.

And we need to be aware of it's influence. If we know what it is then we can stop it. But you can't stop something unknown. Alot of us converts already know what's going on. So as long as we blow the whistle, then the plans to make us ordain women priests will fall flat. It won't happen.

But we have to keep informing the people, and passing the Tradition to the next generation, for those that wanna make Orthodoxy bow down will not stop.

Unlike the Protestants, we have hindsight. We know what will happen. There is no unknown, we know what will happen, we know what is behind all of this.......the people pushing this are not being objective, That's how the protestants caved in. They can't use that same mumbo jumbo on us.....we already know what they are up to.

So what it comes down to is what we love. Do we love Orthodoxy, or do we love England?

We can't love both, for we will hate one and love the other.

Those that want Women priests love England. Those that don't, Love Orthodoxy.

JNORM888

« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 03:44:22 PM by jnorm888 »

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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

And you know what they say? Oh, Let's talk about it! Let's talk about the possibility of his body not rising from the dead, lets talk about the possibility of him not performing miracles.....let's talk about it......we shouldn't run away from it.

If the answer is not no, then what is there to talk about?

Sure. Let's talk about those. Feel free to resurrect one of the threads about those issues, or start your own if it's sufficiently different. Is it possible that Christ did not bodily rise from the dead? Is it possible he did not perform miracles? How will we know unless we present evidence, consult the writings of eyewitnesses, reasonably consider the possibility? If the answer is that Christ did rise bodily from the dead, it shall be made clear to us, and if the answer is that He did not, that also shall be made clear to us, and the error of the Church shall be revealed.

Personally, I consider Truth much more highly than doctrine. Only when doctrine is true is it of any value at all.

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"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

I love BP. Kallistos, but I've noticed that he's been changing over the years towards the left. I no longer want to buy his new edition of the "Orthodox Church". I can't give that book to conservative and moderate Protestants. Only Liberal gnostic loving and bodily resurrection denying Protestants would want to read that book.

So, do you mean, then, that a sizable number of us Orthodox are liberal (how does one define "liberal", anyway? more willing to ask questions than I am?), love Gnosticism, and deny the Resurrection? If you don't like the writings of Metropolitan Kallistos, fine. That doesn't bother me. But please don't make such sweeping ad hominems against those who read his works and allow themselves to be challenged by his points of view.

First off it's "Episcopalians". Next would you please explain how 'gnostic' applies?

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Only Liberal gnostic loving and bodily resurrection denying Protestants would want to read that book.

How would you know that to be so, please? And why do you keep saying "gnostic"?

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If the answer is not no, then what is there to talk about?

And if it is not talked about, how will people who don't know, or who have doubts hear other ideas and beliefs?

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He lives in England, so he is surrounded by Liberal Protestantism, so maybe he is trying to please them. Or maybe they are constantly speaking in his ear. They listen to him speak, and once he says something they don't like.....they put pressure on him to change his mind.

May I ask how you *know* this assertion to be what is really happening?

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Or maybe the World Council of Churches or the National Council of Churches are putting pressure on him to "SLOWLY" embrace women priests.

Or maybe not....

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I once heard a Roman Catholic on EWTN say that in an old edition of "The Orthodox Church" he said that the ORthodox are against contraception. Then in a later edition, he said that it's up to the individual family.

That is hearsay until it is checked and documented, which shouldn't be hard to do with many copies of the book available.

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If this is true, then he is slowly trying to push for the ordaination of women priests.

I do not see how that follows logically from the previous sentence with a second hand report.

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I pray that the economy of the Western World collapse.

You are praying for hundreds of millions of people to suffer, to not have work or enough to eat or to care for their families!??!? And how does this go along with Our Lord's own words on "Do to others"? And how will you be secure in this situation?

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OR that Russia pressures the Western World through Oil to embrace more conservative views.

And how would this come about, do you think? And can you please tell us what are "conservative views" to you?

Ebor

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3335026.ece?token=null=offset=12 While one may find some of the Orthodox posts here problematic. Let us also consider that there are situations within the whole Anglican communion that give us and many Anglicans much apprehension. This is why people may react in tones that are not always the best but when one reads the article linked re fallout from an earlier outrage in the Anglican communion a red flag is undoubtedly true and not unrelated to the overall concept of this thread.

So back in the day particularly during the Oxford movement relations between Orthodoxy and Anglicanism were fairly cordial. What is the state of the relations today since Anglicanism has embraced the woman Priest garbage and all the other "things" that are part of the Episcopal Church these days.

Not all Anglican jurisdictions allow this, and many view it as an innovation. Mine doesn't.

Not all Anglican jurisdictions allow this, and many view it as an innovation. Mine doesn't.

It seems these innovations meet more resistance in certain areas compared to others. Recently, multiple parishes have severed ties with the Anglican Church of Canada in protest.

Welcome to the forum, Matariel, as well!

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As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS

Welcome to the forum. It's certainly not OK to wish such things on anyone. Unfortunately comments like that occur on here and other forums from time to time. Don't pay comments like that any mind. I pray that persons chrismated scarcely a year ago would continue their guidance and instruction from their spiritual father and sponsors and show some charity toward others.

Please make yourself at home here and feel free to ask any questions you may have. There are some great resources on here. And pray for me, a sinner.