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Huh, my dictionary shows it as incorporated foundation, essentially, just a business. Now, I dont read kanji well, and my translation software just makes jibberish of the site you linked, so I will just bow to your greater knowledge.

I got the same from my dictionary so I went to the Japanese wikipedia entry which said that profits are used for running the foundation. Then skip to the corresponding English wikipedia entry which says it is a non-profit foundation.

Are you sure? Howabout the single complement Kisshomaru ever got from his father (by lore)--on the founding of the Tokyo dojo? I think he wanted the organization to spread aikido, he just didn't want to have to run it.

In general, I do like having a parent organization. I like it that Hombu has decided to be an umbrella organization so I can walk into most dojos and even if they've never heard of my teacher or the ASU, they accept me because I'm affiliated with Hombu. I'd like to believe there's some quality control, so the more squirrely groups are easier to identify. It's hard to put a price tag on that.

Yeah, the quality control is one of the benefits I appreciate. I dont travel much now, but when I did, the little book did save me a few minor headaches.

So, I am approaching nidan, do I send my book back in for a stamp (not like a hanko more like a postage stamp), do they just send the stamp to me, or do I get a new book? I dunno. I spose sensei will just tell me, but forewarned is forearmed.

Are you sure? Howabout the single complement Kisshomaru ever got from his father (by lore)--on the founding of the Tokyo dojo? I think he wanted the organization to spread aikido, he just didn't want to have to run it.

In general, I do like having a parent organization. I like it that Hombu has decided to be an umbrella organization so I can walk into most dojos and even if they've never heard of my teacher or the ASU, they accept me because I'm affiliated with Hombu. I'd like to believe there's some quality control, so the more squirrely groups are easier to identify. It's hard to put a price tag on that.

I think that he liked the shiny new building.

He may or may not have appreciated the benefits of what Kisshomaru was doing (that story certainly suggests it), but that doesn't mean that he had any interest in the organization itself.

His massive lack of interest in organizations at any level has been mentioned by many of the uchi-deshi.

That's why I'm saying that calling it "the Founder's organization" is probably less accurate than calling it "Kisshomaru's organization".

Huh, my dictionary shows it as incorporated foundation, essentially, just a business. Now, I dont read kanji well, and my translation software just makes jibberish of the site you linked, so I will just bow to your greater knowledge.

The change of Japanese law meant that the foundation that runs the Hiroshima Peace Memorial Museum had to undergo the same process as the Aikikai. It has the same legal status as a 'public interest foundation', but I would not quite agree that the Hiroshima Peace Culture Foundation is 'just a business.' There are no shareholders and the object is to break even and not to run at a loss. I suspect that its finances are subject to greater public scrutiny than those of the Aikikai.

The change of Japanese law meant that the foundation that runs the Hiroshima Peace Memorial Museum had to undergo the same process as the Aikikai. It has the same legal status as a 'public interest foundation', but I would not quite agree that the Hiroshima Peace Culture Foundation is 'just a business.' There are no shareholders and the object is to break even and not to run at a loss. I suspect that its finances are subject to greater public scrutiny than those of the Aikikai.

Best wishes,

Dear Peter,
Congrats on the recent promotion.It would be interesting to see a copy of Aikikai accounts. Perhaps having a possible cultural status / charitable type setup [plus a good tax consultancy]might mean no taxes are paid?Almost like some of the millionaires in U.S.A/U.K.Here in the U.K the poor tighten their belts[benefits cut left and right ] and the Top Men get tax reductions giving them £100, 000 plus extra dosh.Its a cruel world dont you think?? Joe.

Dear Peter,
Congrats on the recent promotion.It would be interesting to see a copy of Aikikai accounts. Perhaps having a possible cultural status / charitable type setup [plus a good tax consultancy]might mean no taxes are paid?Almost like some of the millionaires in U.S.A/U.K.Here in the U.K the poor tighten their belts[benefits cut left and right ] and the Top Men get tax reductions giving them £100, 000 plus extra dosh.Its a cruel world dont you think?? Joe.

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Thank you. I believe that you have been elevated to Shihan status. Right? In Japan there are several types of legal foundation, other than the Aikikai's koeki zaidan hojin and these, too, have a favourable tax situation. As Christopher Li stated, the Aikikai publishes minimal accounts on the Japanese language section of the website, but these do not give much information, especially to the untrained eye.

The change of Japanese law meant that the foundation that runs the Hiroshima Peace Memorial Museum had to undergo the same process as the Aikikai. It has the same legal status as a 'public interest foundation', but I would not quite agree that the Hiroshima Peace Culture Foundation is 'just a business.' There are no shareholders and the object is to break even and not to run at a loss. I suspect that its finances are subject to greater public scrutiny than those of the Aikikai.

Best wishes,

I certainly didn't mean "just a business" as anything but a comment on the financial/legal structure. I dont know Japanese financial structures, I dont read Japanese very well,, the English Aikikai site does not sat either way, and I pay into the Aikikai, so I thought I'd ask. Thanks for the info.

Thank you. I believe that you have been elevated to Shihan status. Right? In Japan there are several types of legal foundation, other than the Aikikai's koeki zaidan hojin and these, too, have a favourable tax situation. As Christopher Li stated, the Aikikai publishes minimal accounts on the Japanese language section of the website, but these do not give much information, especially to the untrained eye.

Best wishes,

PAG

Dear Peter
i see that you are aware of my new status.On my part a most unexpected promotion.
Regarding tax structures in general, not just the Aikikai,I am sure that private individuals /companies [like Starbucks in the U.K]use various legally sound,but possible morally suspect methods of tax avoidance.Charitable status/relgious institutions all have tax advantages which are not available to the average worker .Philip Green, the multi millionaire of British Home Stores,recently negotiated with the inland revenue to come to an arrangement regarding his tax setlement.I cannot imagine the tax guys taking time out to negotiate my tax situation.I guess its not always a fair system.
Cheers, joe

Looking at something that was floating around last year (with the exclusion of 1st Dan as you pay registration at the same time) the fees fit quite nicely into Dan level x £100 i.e. Nidan £200, Sandan £300 ... Y70.000 is £500 give or take. Coincidence? Probably!

But hey, the upper echelons are a long way off for me. So no need for me to worry about the finances for a while. Still, I was talking to a colleague the other day that is coming up to her Shodan in some form of Karate and her grading fees (made up of various bits and bobs) come to about £500. She was quite shocked when I shared mine was <£200.

If you personally see a value to having something you pay the sticker price don't you? If not, you walk away.

Dear Peter
i see that you are aware of my new status.On my part a most unexpected promotion.
Regarding tax structures in general, not just the Aikikai,I am sure that private individuals /companies [like Starbucks in the U.K]use various legally sound,but possible morally suspect methods of tax avoidance.Charitable status/relgious institutions all have tax advantages which are not available to the average worker .Philip Green, the multi millionaire of British Home Stores,recently negotiated with the inland revenue to come to an arrangement regarding his tax setlement.I cannot imagine the tax guys taking time out to negotiate my tax situation.I guess its not always a fair system.
Cheers, joe

I made a general comment, which I did not intend to aim specifically at you. I apologise if it made you feel bad. It was meant to make people think, that is all. Itfs very easy for people in general to just vent frustration but I think it is more productive to run things through to their logical conclusions...

Quote:

Krystal Locke wrote:

How much of a donation? And is it a donation if the amount is prescribed and the money is in exchange for something? What is keeping the organization for giving someone a rank at a different cost?

Yudansha passports show gcontributionh stamps for each rank attained. You could call it gpaymenth but it is a payment involving more than just the money part. Or at least I think it was much more than money for the few people I know on that list. It really all boils down to whether you think the Aikikai are committing fraud or not. Have a look at what theyfre doing. How could they run the organisation better?

If you personally see a value to having something you pay the sticker price don't you? If not, you walk away.

That's the whole point, isn't it? I think that there is an increasing tendency to feel that there is little value relative to the sticker price. The Aikikai will recognize this at some point, or perhaps people will vote with their feet.

It really all boils down to whether you think the Aikikai are committing fraud or not.

I don't really think that's it. I don't feel strongly in either direction, but the sense I get reading this thread is at most that some people just don't feel much of a tie to the organisation or feel like it's an expensive service they're not sure they really want or need all that much.

I.e., 'do I really need or want this or personally feel that this organisation is important enough to pay a significant amount of money for it?'

It really all boils down to whether you think the Aikikai are committing fraud or not. Have a look at what they're doing. How could they run the organisation better?

Carl

I have a long list.

Anyway, it's not about fraud, but about value and relationships. In the past much of the value was in the relationship.

Shihan X trained at Aikikai Hombu and feels a personal obligation to support them. He pays up.

Bob, who trains with Shihan X, has no particular personal relationship with Aikikai Hombu, but pays up because his teacher pays up.

Bill, who trains with Bob, has no particular personal relationship with Aikikai Hombu, his teacher Bob has no particular personal relationship with Aikikai Hombu, but pays up because his Shihan X pays up.

Bruce, who trains with Bill, has no particular personal relationship with Aikikai Hombu, his teacher Bill has no particular personal relationship with Aikikai Hombu, , Bill's teacher Bob has no particular personal relationship with Aikikai Hombu, but Bruce pays up because...why?

This is the point that we're getting to now in the history of Aikido. Most people have never been to Hombu and have no personal relationships there. They send in money and get (by mail) a piece of paper from someone who has never met them and doesn't know who they are.

If you put all of the sixth dans in the world in a room, my bet would be that Doshu would only recognize a small fraction, let alone know their names.

When Bruce walks out because he has no personal relationship with the Aikikai and receives little value, it hurts him...very little. Most new students have no idea what the Aikikai and care less.

But it's a problem for the Aikikai, and one that's going to be harder to fix the longer things go on....

The problem you're talking about is easy to solve: Don't join. Joining an organisation just because someone else did, or out of obligation are indeed poor reasons. I was referring specifically to the cost issue. When sensei registers you at shodan (and you are happy to be a member of the founder's organisation), where does the money go? For example, is it going towards sports cars and lavish lifestyles for certain people or is it paying for aikido to be promulgated?

The problem you're talking about is easy to solve: Don't join. Joining an organisation just because someone else did, or out of obligation are indeed poor reasons. I was referring specifically to the cost issue. When sensei registers you at shodan (and you are happy to be a member of the founder's organisation), where does the money go? For example, is it going towards sports cars and lavish lifestyles for certain people or is it paying for aikido to be promulgated?

Carl

Nobody knows, there's not much transparancy, and a lot of things move in cash, kind of a recipe for problems to occur (I'm not saying that there are problems).

Anyway, I don't have a particular problem with belonging to the Aikikai right now, but of course that could always change.

More to the point,"don't join" is likely to be an increasingly troublesome problem for the Aikikai as time goes on, and that ought to concern everybody who is a member of the Aikikai.

Hi Chris,
Some people believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and my own personal belief that the moon is made of green cheese.Cheers, Joe.
Ps Please do not spoil my childlike state by saying that the moon is anything other than above.PPS.I also believe the cow jumped over the said moon.

Hi Chris,
Some people believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and my own personal belief that the moon is made of green cheese.Cheers, Joe.
Ps Please do not spoil my childlike state by saying that the moon is anything other than above.PPS.I also believe the cow jumped over the said moon.

Well, the corporate structure is non-profit - no guarantees of anything more than that, however!

Anyway, it's not about fraud, but about value and relationships. In the past much of the value was in the relationship.

Shihan X trained at Aikikai Hombu and feels a personal obligation to support them. He pays up.

Bob, who trains with Shihan X, has no particular personal relationship with Aikikai Hombu, but pays up because his teacher pays up.

Bill, who trains with Bob, has no particular personal relationship with Aikikai Hombu, his teacher Bob has no particular personal relationship with Aikikai Hombu, but pays up because his Shihan X pays up.

Bruce, who trains with Bill, has no particular personal relationship with Aikikai Hombu, his teacher Bill has no particular personal relationship with Aikikai Hombu, , Bill's teacher Bob has no particular personal relationship with Aikikai Hombu, but Bruce pays up because...why?

This is the point that we're getting to now in the history of Aikido. Most people have never been to Hombu and have no personal relationships there. They send in money and get (by mail) a piece of paper from someone who has never met them and doesn't know who they are.

If you put all of the sixth dans in the world in a room, my bet would be that Doshu would only recognize a small fraction, let alone know their names.

When Bruce walks out because he has no personal relationship with the Aikikai and receives little value, it hurts him...very little. Most new students have no idea what the Aikikai and care less.

But it's a problem for the Aikikai, and one that's going to be harder to fix the longer things go on....

Best,

Chris

Dear Chris,
Your article is imo almost spot on.The transmission of Aikido in my mind is one where there is a direct bond with Teacher and student.Its nigh impossible for most to have a real strong relationship with a person,a society or organisation or even a country when both parties rarely if ever get much of a chance to get to know one and other .Maybe its the same between the U.S. President /our Prime Minister and the people.We se these guys on T.V/Newspapers but can we really say we know them?
I suppose you can make a case for the Aikikai Foundation/Hombu inasmuch it is the mother dojo.It is a focal point .Nevertheless for the average guy in the street I do not think the Aikikai is foremost in his /her thoughts.Time will tell whether the Aikido community /Hombu adapts to the current situation,eg the multiplicity of new groups forming etc.
Cheers, Joe.

Are you sure? Howabout the single complement Kisshomaru ever got from his father (by lore)--on the founding of the Tokyo dojo? I think he wanted the organization to spread aikido, he just didn't want to have to run it.

In general, I do like having a parent organization. I like it that Hombu has decided to be an umbrella organization so I can walk into most dojos and even if they've never heard of my teacher or the ASU, they accept me because I'm affiliated with Hombu. I'd like to believe there's some quality control, so the more squirrely groups are easier to identify. It's hard to put a price tag on that.