Win8 is not as bad as folk think it is.

Though I wish there was a built in way to toggle between Metro and Start Menu (not the hacks that even my new Asus shipped with but not installed), I actually am liking Win8. I really like the new FreeCell game which I had to download as an App (but it was free). I didn't want to buy a new computer right now, but ol' betsy (7 year old PC; nearly 5 as a Win7 64-bit OS) finally died on me (over the years, had to replace a memory module, power supply, and video card twice (just recently; heat sink fan on process went bad as well so had to replace the whole heatsink along with the Video card). This time, I think the power supply bit the bullet. I made a vow, after spending around $85 to fix it last time, that I wasn't going to spend another red cent to fix it further. All I can say now is how blazingly fast my AMD 8 cpu (4 core) system is. Even my XP VM (typing this now in it) is 4 times faster (no joke) then before and now videos play flawlessly and even GPU acceleration in Virtualbox works right (before not so much). I do see that for those who like orthodoxy, they would hate Win8, but I guess I am more adaptable then I thought. Just goes to show you that don't knock something til you try it. Besides, because I use my XP VM, I still have a Start Menu so it's like having your cake and eating it too. I wonder if I can use my Win7 OS license again as a VM (probably not since it was intertwined to my last system).

I didn't want to buy a new computer right now, but ol' betsy (7 year old PC; nearly 5 as a Win7 64-bit OS) finally died on me

My present HP desktop (Quad Core) is still running well although not quite as old as above. It arrived with Vista Home Premium 64 bit, just before Windows 7 came out. I upgraded to 8, then 8.1 and now waiting for update 2.
I do use a "hack" (StartIsBack), but with Windows 8.1 with update 1, one does not really need it (Drew, are you listening?). Put me down on the plus side for Windows 8, even though most of my time is spent on the desktop. I do venture unto the "Dark Side" (Metro) and enjoy a few free games, IHeart Radio, Weather, etc. All of my software used in Vista and 7 play nicely in 8.
We need more posts like yours.

Since you upgraded your computer to Windows 7 in 2009, you must have a two DVD upgrade version of Windows 7, and since you have stopped using it on the PC that you installed it on, you can use it to upgrade a virtual machine from XP or Vista.

The problem, is that you have to have a licensed version of XP or Vista, that is not already installed on another PC, to upgrade from.

If you don't have one, I have recently seen full install XP CDs with license keys advertised as cheap as $25.00, which is reasonable, since XP is no longer supported, but let the buyer beware. If it doesn't look kosher, it probably isn't.

Though I wish there was a built in way to toggle between Metro and Start Menu (not the hacks that even my new Asus shipped with but not installed), I actually am liking Win8. I really like the new FreeCell game which I had to download as an App (but it was free). I didn't want to buy a new computer right now, but ol' betsy (7 year old PC; nearly 5 as a Win7 64-bit OS) finally died on me (over the years, had to replace a memory module, power supply, and video card twice (just recently; heat sink fan on process went bad as well so had to replace the whole heatsink along with the Video card). This time, I think the power supply bit the bullet. I made a vow, after spending around $85 to fix it last time, that I wasn't going to spend another red cent to fix it further. All I can say now is how blazingly fast my AMD 8 cpu (4 core) system is. Even my XP VM (typing this now in it) is 4 times faster (no joke) then before and now videos play flawlessly and even GPU acceleration in Virtualbox works right (before not so much). I do see that for those who like orthodoxy, they would hate Win8, but I guess I am more adaptable then I thought. Just goes to show you that don't knock something til you try it. Besides, because I use my XP VM, I still have a Start Menu so it's like having your cake and eating it too. I wonder if I can use my Win7 OS license again as a VM (probably not since it was intertwined to my last system).

I'll say 2 things to this & try to keep it short.

1. Your Win7 as a VM... I am an IT Consultant/Tech who writes in IT Forums & who has clients. I am a Microsoft Partner & my company is a Microsoft Partner Company. You will see why I mention this momentarily.* When we migrated Win7 installations to Win8, we, in effect, traded in or swapped or carried over our Win7 licenses to Win8 and rendering the Win7 license 'defunct', let's say. This includes having it for a VM; it's not available or useable for a VM anymore than a physical machine.

*For myself, I considered this unacceptable as, for the sake of supporting my work, I wanted VMs of old OSs. I had to fight hard w/ MS to finally have them agree to make it possible, for me. But, outside of a case like that, your understanding is correct.

2. Personally, I had basically quit using the Win7 type start button/menu long before Win8 appeared. I have been running Win8 for, @ least, 2 yrs including Beta Testing it. I have never felt 3rd Party start stuff necessary. I do live 100% of the time on Desktop. I will offer you 3 tips that avoid "toggling" to or between something that doesn't exist ( sorry, bad humour).
A. Use the Desktop Toolbar. Rt Clk Taskbar > Toolbars & check Desktop
B. Pin things to the Taskbar... Store APPs and whatever else.
C. One, as I do, can have a Folder on the Taskbar which, opens to a normal window w/ the content of the ALL Applications screen. That's whatever you have on Start plus, everything else in the machine. This is not a 3rd Party add-on and you can set the View & Sort it (the items) how you want.

It's in this Forum somewhere but, I'll be glad to tell you how to do or get 'C' if you are interested.

As for the title of this thread... ABSOLUTELY! Windows 8/8.1 is far better than some try to convey or than some believe. And it's really easy to use. It is its guts that make it shine. What one 'sees' in practice are the results of the technologies under the covers. Win8 may look different, on the surface but, the positively impacting differences are deep down. And they a big, vast differences in how things are done & how well or better they are done & handled. Plus, things like increased / enhanced security, stability and overall performance, only part of which, is speed & graphics.

I have said, since the early days of Win8 and you put it very well & very nicely, how one takes to it or not, is largely attitude dependant and whether one has read or been fed rubbish about Win8... and unfortunately there has been a lot of that; certainly, not helpful. But, yes, Windows 8.1 is a lot better than some people try to convey or than some believe.

Then there are people like me... just think its terrific and full of choices, flexibility & options. And, damn, it does (lots of) things so well, too. You are right about that.

1. Your Win7 as a VM... I am an IT Consultant/Tech who writes in IT Forums & who has clients. I am a Microsoft Partner & my company is a Microsoft Partner Company. You will see why I mention this momentarily.* When we migrated Win7 installations to Win8, we, in effect, traded in or swapped or carried over our Win7 licenses to Win8 and rendering the Win7 license 'defunct', let's say. This includes having it for a VM; it's not available or useable for a VM anymore than a physical machine.

*For myself, I considered this unacceptable as, for the sake of supporting my work, I wanted VMs of old OSs. I had to fight hard w/ MS to finally have them agree to make it possible, for me. But, outside of a case like that, your understanding is correct.

2. Personally, I had basically quit using the Win7 type start button/menu long before Win8 appeared. I have been running Win8 for, @ least, 2 yrs including Beta Testing it. I have never felt 3rd Party start stuff necessary. I do live 100% of the time on Desktop. I will offer you 3 tips that avoid "toggling" to or between something that doesn't exist ( sorry, bad humour).
A. Use the Desktop Toolbar. Rt Clk Taskbar > Toolbars & check Desktop
B. Pin things to the Taskbar... Store APPs and whatever else.
C. One, as I do, can have a Folder on the Taskbar which, opens to a normal window w/ the content of the ALL Applications screen. That's whatever you have on Start plus, everything else in the machine. This is not a 3rd Party add-on and you can set the View & Sort it (the items) how you want.

It's in this Forum somewhere but, I'll be glad to tell you how to do or get 'C' if you are interested.

As for the title of this thread... ABSOLUTELY! Windows 8/8.1 is far better than some try to convey or than some believe. And it's really easy to use. It is its guts that make it shine. What one 'sees' in practice are the results of the technologies under the covers. Win8 may look different, on the surface but, the positively impacting differences are deep down. And they a big, vast differences in how things are done & how well or better they are done & handled. Plus, things like increased / enhanced security, stability and overall performance, only part of which, is speed & graphics.

I have said, since the early days of Win8 and you put it very well & very nicely, how one takes to it or not, is largely attitude dependant and whether one has read or been fed rubbish about Win8... and unfortunately there has been a lot of that; certainly, not helpful. But, yes, Windows 8.1 is a lot better than some people try to convey or than some believe.

Then there are people like me... just think its terrific and full of choices, flexibility & options. And, damn, it does (lots of) things so well, too. You are right about that.

Appreciate your input; only reason I want to consider using Win7, which I got from the pre-order craze back in 2009, is to use the OS as a Sandbox which currently I use XP for (and typing this now in my Sandbox XP VM). Not the most secure situation but Virtual box recovers from my saved gold standard in less then 6 seconds (no joke) so it works quite well. Still, now that Sandboxie works in Win7, I would like to pursue that since I never browse using a native OS unless I have no choice since there's no such thing as a perfect protection/anti-virus scheme. A sandbox is as close to perfection as you can come by and I don't even use an anti-virus (other then the built in one that now comes with Win8; even Win7, I used MSE) now. That's how confident I am with my double-sandboxed technique (run sandboxie inside my XP VM so, in essense, I'm double-sandboxed). I see no hit in speed/function either as far as browsing is concerned but it's going to get harder and harder to find browsers that work in WinXP since it's no longer a supported OS. I currently use SR Iron browser and it's pretty decent and even supports HTML 5 quite well. Anyway, that's my motivation for using Win7 as a VM. Microsoft did a pretty cool thing when it created Virtual Mode XP but they hosed it w/ Win8 for whatever reason. Sigh. Virtualization is awesome; I suppose I could use Ubuntu as a Sandboxed OS (have the current version 64-bit OS installed as a VM now), but still would rather keep to my crutches (that would be Microsoft OS). If you have any input w/ Microsoft, please pass my opinions to them. It's not their fault there's no such thing as a perfectly secure OS; just isn't. There is a way to achieve nirvana though and that's by virtualization. So far, though I've heard rumors of exploits that can cross the Virtualization barrier, I've yet seen it.

One of the reasons Apps are so anemic is because they are self-contained and depend entirely on the programmer(s)-but hey, they're safe to use eh, as long as they've been properly vetted by The Store. A car is safer to use also if it's only allowed to go 10mph.

Biggest disservice Microsoft has ever perpetrated is placing ever more restrictive limits on internal OS virtualization after a very promising start in XP. Excellent for them for ease of license integrity and control, bad for the user and part of the reason for the parallel explosion in easier to use tablets and the somewhat unwise attempt to use them in situations where only a proper laptop can suffice. In other words Microsoft did not in any way succeed in making computers with a traditional OS any easier to use for the average person or continue to provide an absolute means for quick and simple recovery. Instead we got refresh, restore, reset...nowhere near as simple as it needs to be--or as useful when the technology already exists.

Having watched a small sampling of folks interacting with computers enough times now, they do things we don't even think of because they make no logical sense at all. I once again make the distinction between enthusiasts and the greater populace. The fact is W8 is the biggest disaster OS for Microsoft in the 21st century, and not by a little bit; by a very substantial or even huge margin. Massaging that fact with enthusiast platitudes won't change that fact. Just like my love for New Coke isn't ever going to gain any major whimsy for the good old days. It too was an unqualified disaster, though I'm sure of interested parties, at least a percent or two agreed with me!

Well, I did finally break down and install Classic Shell (Asus included it in my build but did not have it installed automatically). I then found that an update was available so updated without a hitch. Have to admit that I do like the traditional startmenu better and I still have a button access to metro so it's like having your cake and eating it too. Not sure if a future update from Microsoft that includes the start menue will mess up my system (hope not).