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Topic: Fear is a powerful motivator (Read 8434 times)

I don't believe in gods because it is silly to believe it, just as it is silly to believe that the story of Santa Clause is real. You never feel like debating Santa Clause with anyone because you know it's just a story and it has no real impact on your life. No debate on the matter would change my mind because it is as simple as knowing that there is no Tooth Fairy. I believe the one main reason we are having to debate religion is because we all fear death. Since the beginning of mankind, we have tried to survive as long as we can. As well as any other being that is aware of its own existence has tried too.

The explanation for life and afterlife given by the majority of religions is nothing shy of Santa Clause. It is possible that we don't know everything that happens when we die, but if there is something more, unfortunately we are not technologically advanced enough yet to be able to discover these answers. Nevertheless we don't need 95% of the world's population to become philosophers on the subject. As more than 95% of the world 2500 years ago did not philosophically seek the answer to rather planet Earth was round or flat, although that was an important piece of information that was eventually proven. I would say learning of life past death would be important as well, but somethings are just beyond us as of right now. If we can't come to terms with this then we will never reach the point of actually knowing, because so many people spent so much time pondering a question that is so far beyond the reach of our current technology.

Many believers have turned the tables on the idea of fear, and made it into the excitement of an afterlife. They have unknowingly suppressed the very real fact that once our bodies die, there is literally nothing for them. From what we are now able to measure and observe, and what we have collectively experienced since we created communication as a species, there is absolutely nothing at all to indicate that there may be something after death. It is so far beyond possible, as to render it nothing more than a human fantasy, and one that is wholly driven by the fear of nothingness - death.

Humans have been "philosophizing" forever on this topic. We think we are smart, and in so many ways, we have become very knowledgable. But obviously, we still have a lot to learn. And this is why I love the scientific approach. So, we start with crazy notions, thoughts, ideas, and philosophies on the things we do not fully understand, which triggers a more rigorous investigation, which becomes information that we can use to make things "better". Better is subjective, I suppose.

One additional thought on the religious side of humanity. Many believers want to know why we are here, or what is our purpose. They literally do not grasp the possibility that we are here as the result of an undirected cosmic accident. If we evolved from simple life, which was triggered by a random combination of chemicals, and there is truly no "direction" in the apparent resulting tree of life, then there is no "reason" we are here. We are just here. Some of these same believers would tell you that every living thing has an actual purpose, as a part of the plan of some creator? Yet, death seems to be as much a part of life as birth. It would seem that the creator intended death to happen, and planned it that way all along. But believers cannot accept this, so they invented the afterlife, and are convinced that this was the intention all along.

How sad is it that humanity has gotten itself caught up in the afterlife debate, and attached it to a creator that is not measurable in any way. A purely imaginary entity that MUST have created this circus we appear to live in, and then through the magic of ancient writings, from oral traditions, is still trying to tell us that we must all worship him and accept his son's death before we will be granted eternal life.

One additional thought on the religious side of humanity. Many believers want to know why we are here, or what is our purpose. They literally do not grasp the possibility that we are here as the result of an undirected cosmic accident.

Definitely. Fear of death and purpose of life are like the yin and yang of the religious mentality. People accuse atheists of being arrogant because we "can't accept there is something above us"[1] but then they believe that they are the entire reason for all of creation and are even made in the "image of god." That's not arrogant?

It's an abyss, though-- standing on the edge of thinking, "There is no objective meaning to anything and everything I have experienced, the reality of my "self" is temporary and fleeting, my consciousness is a product of utterly impersonal evolution, my place in the universe is virtually non-existent, and there is nothing and nobody making sure the good are rewarded and the bad are punished-- nothing making sense out of the chaos"-- that is a hard place to stand, and even harder to let yourself topple into. Most of the arguments I have had with believers focus far more on this need for purpose than an articulated fear of death (although that is also because fear of something is not a strong basis for argument and people tend to be in denial).

In another thread the fear of death was discussed as the fundamental basis for religion, and the question posed if we could eradicate this fear could we eradicate religion? But whereas the fear of death is part of our survival mechanism, this need for objective purpose is not, necessarily. Maybe the two are inseparable components of consciousness and self-awareness, and maybe the world wouldn't be a better place if everyone let go of their illusion of purpose, but I like to think that we could eventually arrive, as a species, to a place where we don't have to be the pinnacle of creation to find life worthwhile and we can recognize all life as equally "sacred."

"I believe in nothing; everything is sacred. I believe in everything; nothing is sacred." ~Tom Robbins

String1248: "We Christian most certainly can use the bible to prove that what the bible says is true because I know that everything that comes from it is true. Christians confirm scripture with other scripture all the time."

As I spend time thinking about who I am, and what I believe, I can't seem to escape the very basic idea that I am certainly not special, yet I remain amazed at how lucky I am to be here at all. I am both special, and not special, simultaneously. But I don't have a problem with that idea.

I enjoy the benefits of increased knowledge that leads to advances in technology and medicine, which seem to have increased our average lifespans, and generally made life a lot more comfortable for many humans. But I am also aware that there are humans who are on the other side of the benefits, and seem to be getting no benefit at all? And sadly, this usually ends up being a function of some of the most disgusting forms of human thought and behavior, where some people are treated as inferior, be it cultural, sexual, racial, or any of a myriad ways people are segregated into groups.

What keeps the most powerful cultures in power? I honestly believe it is the fear of losing that power, and succumbing to the whims of another power. So, in the U.S., for example, we espouse freedom and equal rights for our citizens, and we believe we have figured out that the rest of the world needs to do the same thing. Yet, the U.S. does not yet even begin to provide freedom and equal rights for everyone. We can't even manage to give blacks, or women equal rights to white males! IT's STILL a major problem, in my opinion.

Anyway, fear seems to be at the root of our ability to live peacefully on this tiny rock, in the middle of nowhere.

Definitely. Fear of death and purpose of life are like the yin and yang of the religious mentality. People accuse atheists of being arrogant because we "can't accept there is something above us"[1] but then they believe that they are the entire reason for all of creation and are even made in the "image of god." That's not arrogant?

Their blinders are pretty high and lined with manipulation. All they see is the box they've been corraled by.

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It's an abyss, though-- standing on the edge of thinking, "There is no objective meaning to anything and everything I have experienced, the reality of my "self" is temporary and fleeting, my consciousness is a product of utterly impersonal evolution, my place in the universe is virtually non-existent, and there is nothing and nobody making sure the good are rewarded and the bad are punished-- nothing making sense out of the chaos"-- that is a hard place to stand, and even harder to let yourself topple into. Most of the arguments I have had with believers focus far more on this need for purpose than an articulated fear of death (although that is also because fear of something is not a strong basis for argument and people tend to be in denial).

Yes, it is a terrifying place to stand. I have a lot of sympathy for those who stand there for a long time before jumping or who back off. BTDT.

They're sold a lie, that meaning = their place in the cosmos. It's a projection of the human self onto something besides itself in order to quell the fear that this is it.

There is a solid door separating that kind of thinking from the kind that allows you to realize that meaning = whatever is right in front of you. Letting go allows you to see the breathtakingly beautiful technicolor clarity of the moment. But you have to let go. And there is a little death and a lot of grief that comes with that for a lot of people.

The deeper you were into it, the greater the grief.

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Maybe the two are inseparable components of consciousness and self-awareness, and maybe the world wouldn't be a better place if everyone let go of their illusion of purpose,

I don't think they have to let go of it. They just have to find another object. There is plenty of purpose to be found in this life if people are unselfish enough to open their eyes and see it as purposeful and good.

I think the real illusion lies with the notion that the mundane isn't purposeful. We can thank the puritans for that, city on a hill and all that.

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but I like to think that we could eventually arrive, as a species, to a place where we don't have to be the pinnacle of creation to find life worthwhile and we can recognize all life as equally "sacred."

I think we're fighting against the hierarchical nature of the species, though. We are driven to dominate, and being the alpha dog comes part and parcel with that.

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"I believe in nothing; everything is sacred. I believe in everything; nothing is sacred." ~Tom Robbins

Love Tom Robbins.

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Sheldon: Ever since you started having regular intercourse your mind has lost its edge. You should reflect on that.Leonard: Well, Einstein had a busy sex life.Sheldon: Yes, but he never unified gravity with the other forces. If he hadn't been such a hounddog we'd all have time machines.

As I spend time thinking about who I am, and what I believe, I can't seem to escape the very basic idea that I am certainly not special, yet I remain amazed at how lucky I am to be here at all. I am both special, and not special, simultaneously. But I don't have a problem with that idea.

Don't you think, though, that real special-ness comes from bringing value to those around us? That's tangible snowflake material right there.

We are unique and amazing and beautiful as people, but that isn't a conferred status. DNA brings an amazing amount of variety that is delicious to behold.

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Anyway, fear seems to be at the root of our ability to live peacefully on this tiny rock, in the middle of nowhere.

Do you really think we'll ever surpass that, though, as long as our existence is contained in this particular physical form? Fear of death is deeply embedded in the amygdala and goes back to our earliest, swimming ancestors. It's not going anywhere because it's what got us here.

That creeping feeling up the back of the neck when you're alone in the dark - that's what kept us from being eaten for millions of years.

Truly I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but I don't think it's going anywhere anytime soon. In fact I think it's going to get worse the more we have no immediate need for this healthy survival-instinct fearfulness. We live in our cushy homes in suburbia and there are no tigers in the basement. But millions upon millions of years of evolution aren't going to go anywhere, so it'll find other outlets.

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Sheldon: Ever since you started having regular intercourse your mind has lost its edge. You should reflect on that.Leonard: Well, Einstein had a busy sex life.Sheldon: Yes, but he never unified gravity with the other forces. If he hadn't been such a hounddog we'd all have time machines.

Yeah, I actually call it irrational fear, but most of it is ingrained in our DNA, I think. And we could argue that some of that fear is still relevant today, as a mechanism of survival. But, since we are able to discuss the idea that a lot of our fears are quite irrational, it indicates that we might be able to shed it - perhaps through evolution? Sort of "grow out of it", if you will.

If it is a survival mechanism, which I believe some of it is, our brains have been able to recognize, but perhaps our bodies are limited in changing it.

I think the real illusion lies with the notion that the mundane isn't purposeful.

I specifically meant objective purpose, i.e. purpose conferred by a creator. I absolutely believe people can construct personal, subjective purpose.

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String1248: "We Christian most certainly can use the bible to prove that what the bible says is true because I know that everything that comes from it is true. Christians confirm scripture with other scripture all the time."

I think the real illusion lies with the notion that the mundane isn't purposeful.

I specifically meant objective purpose, i.e. purpose conferred by a creator. I absolutely believe people can construct personal, subjective purpose.

Oh, I know you do. Or you wouldn't be here in this forum. :-)

I was talking about how theists react to the idea of "purpose".

I think you and I are really on the same page and are talking past each other a bit. Likely if we were having this discussion in person and had the benefit of body language and facial expressions, we'd be nodding.

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Sheldon: Ever since you started having regular intercourse your mind has lost its edge. You should reflect on that.Leonard: Well, Einstein had a busy sex life.Sheldon: Yes, but he never unified gravity with the other forces. If he hadn't been such a hounddog we'd all have time machines.

Yeah, I actually call it irrational fear, but most of it is ingrained in our DNA, I think. And we could argue that some of that fear is still relevant today, as a mechanism of survival. But, since we are able to discuss the idea that a lot of our fears are quite irrational, it indicates that we might be able to shed it - perhaps through evolution? Sort of "grow out of it", if you will.

If it is a survival mechanism, which I believe some of it is, our brains have been able to recognize, but perhaps our bodies are limited in changing it.

I'd like to think that we can evolve past it. Too bad we won't be here to witness it.

It may seem like an oxymoron, but a big thing holding us back is modern medicine. If you have money, it doesn't matter what your genetic heritage is. Natural selection is artificially controlled in modern society and I'm not sure how we'll get past that as a species without massive changes.

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Sheldon: Ever since you started having regular intercourse your mind has lost its edge. You should reflect on that.Leonard: Well, Einstein had a busy sex life.Sheldon: Yes, but he never unified gravity with the other forces. If he hadn't been such a hounddog we'd all have time machines.

It may seem like an oxymoron, but a big thing holding us back is modern medicine. If you have money, it doesn't matter what your genetic heritage is. Natural selection is artificially controlled in modern society and I'm not sure how we'll get past that as a species without massive changes.

Ah, but why is modern medicine not a part of "Natural Selection"?

I keep thinking about this topic from that perspective. We have taken hold of "nature", and we believe we have done things that are "unnatural", but really, how could we possibly do that, really?

It may seem like an oxymoron, but a big thing holding us back is modern medicine. If you have money, it doesn't matter what your genetic heritage is. Natural selection is artificially controlled in modern society and I'm not sure how we'll get past that as a species without massive changes.

Ah, but why is modern medicine not a part of "Natural Selection"?

I keep thinking about this topic from that perspective. We have taken hold of "nature", and we believe we have done things that are "unnatural", but really, how could we possibly do that, really?

Fun!

OK, point taken. That is one way to look at this. But I'm not sure that I agree with you.

How about this: is selective breeding with dogs "natural selection"?

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Sheldon: Ever since you started having regular intercourse your mind has lost its edge. You should reflect on that.Leonard: Well, Einstein had a busy sex life.Sheldon: Yes, but he never unified gravity with the other forces. If he hadn't been such a hounddog we'd all have time machines.

It may seem like an oxymoron, but a big thing holding us back is modern medicine. If you have money, it doesn't matter what your genetic heritage is. Natural selection is artificially controlled in modern society and I'm not sure how we'll get past that as a species without massive changes.

Ah, but why is modern medicine not a part of "Natural Selection"?

I keep thinking about this topic from that perspective. We have taken hold of "nature", and we believe we have done things that are "unnatural", but really, how could we possibly do that, really?

Fun!

OK, point taken. That is one way to look at this. But I'm not sure that I agree with you.

How about this: is selective breeding with dogs "natural selection"?

I'll take a shot at that...

Why not? The factors that determine whether the lifeform iis able to pass down its genes include how it interacts with other life forms. if bees pollinate a mutant version of the same flower more ofte because the mutant is more atttractive to the bees, how is that different from pople breeding a certain type of dog because we think wrinkled noses are "cute"?

OK, point taken. That is one way to look at this. But I'm not sure that I agree with you.

How about this: is selective breeding with dogs "natural selection"?

Yeah, I'm not sure I agree with me either! But it has always made me wonder. Is this where humans place self importance upon that which they discover, and ultimately tamper with? Who are we if we are not stardust, mucking with stardust? Yes, we can probably all agree that humans have changed the face of the planet. But we could argue that dinosaurs did the same thing.

^Hmm. You raise interesting points. At what point do we acknowledge that we are doing things that couldn't be done without us? (And even so, we came from the planet so it's just an indirect route.)

I suspect that this, like most things, will come down to how we decide to define things. The end is always controlled by the definitions at the front end. If making something that could not exist on its own is what it means to "create"[1], then I think human intervention couldn't be considered "natural selection".

If, however, we use a stricter definition for creation then I suppose we could call human invervention "natural". Gotta admit I don't even know where to start with something like that.

create–verb (used with object)1. to cause to come into being, as something unique that would not naturally evolve or that is not made by ordinary processes.

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Sheldon: Ever since you started having regular intercourse your mind has lost its edge. You should reflect on that.Leonard: Well, Einstein had a busy sex life.Sheldon: Yes, but he never unified gravity with the other forces. If he hadn't been such a hounddog we'd all have time machines.

Yes, I should have clarified up front about the term "natural". Natural selection is a term associated with evolution, and thus the two are not the same, as I have implied. So what have we humans done since our species came into being, that is having a known effect on "natural selection"? And are we bound to define some of those things as unnatural, for example, in vitro fertilization. I have a friend who waits at home for a delivery from the sperm bank, to which she follows instructions on self insemination in the comfort of her home.

She is not going to be having sex with a male because she is lesbian. But she is going to get pregnant, and I can't help wondering if this approach has an effect on our evolution as a species. And who knows what this might be like in the future.

Why not? The factors that determine whether the lifeform iis able to pass down its genes include how it interacts with other life forms. if bees pollinate a mutant version of the same flower more ofte because the mutant is more atttractive to the bees, how is that different from pople breeding a certain type of dog because we think wrinkled noses are "cute"?

Because the randomness is removed. Because natural selection[1] is all about the passing on of genes due to adaptation. This is random, and the specific individuals who survive get to pass on their genes.

Animal husbandry involves very little randomness, right? (Good breeders are thinking of the gene pool, though, when they make their selections.)

Did you see the evolving robots research I posted about in the Science forum? That research is an example of artificial selection that tries very hard to mimic natural selection. Why? Because studies are showing again and again that when random evolution is allowed, the best systems result.

for convenience I'll put the definition here: a process resulting in the survival of those individuals from a population of animals or plants that are best adapted to the prevailing environmental conditions. The survivors tend to produce more offspring than those less well adapted, so that the characteristics of the population change over time, thus accounting for the process of evolution

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Sheldon: Ever since you started having regular intercourse your mind has lost its edge. You should reflect on that.Leonard: Well, Einstein had a busy sex life.Sheldon: Yes, but he never unified gravity with the other forces. If he hadn't been such a hounddog we'd all have time machines.

Yes, I should have clarified up front about the term "natural". Natural selection is a term associated with evolution, and thus the two are not the same, as I have implied. So what have we humans done since our species came into being, that is having a known effect on "natural selection"? And are we bound to define some of those things as unnatural, for example, in vitro fertilization. I have a friend who waits at home for a delivery from the sperm bank, to which she follows instructions on self insemination in the comfort of her home.

She is not going to be having sex with a male because she is lesbian. But she is going to get pregnant, and I can't help wondering if this approach has an effect on our evolution as a species. And who knows what this might be like in the future.

Interesting topic.

VERY interesting topic, and near and dear to my heart. I've been privy to highly aggressive medical intervention in the life of a premature infant the last few months. It's been quite stunning, really, and has brought on a whole slew of philosophical ponderings on my part. It's not a new question for me, but it's been brought to the fore.

What will happen to the human gene pool as more and more people who never would have survived in the past are allowed--due to modern medicine--to pass on their genes?

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Sheldon: Ever since you started having regular intercourse your mind has lost its edge. You should reflect on that.Leonard: Well, Einstein had a busy sex life.Sheldon: Yes, but he never unified gravity with the other forces. If he hadn't been such a hounddog we'd all have time machines.

Mutation is random. Natural selection is not. It is an important difference, especially since the fundies always use the "could all this have happened by CHANCE?!" argument. The answer is no, it did not happen by random chance, but is the process of genetic mutations that enhance survivability being reproduced as a specific result of enhanced survivability.

I don't think human technology is "unnatural." What is the difference between a bird building a nest and anything we do, except for complexity and scale? We wouldn't be able to recreate the technology from information in our DNA but we would have the potential to.

When animals lick their wounds they are performing medicine; it's a deliberate act that promotes healing. And it's natural, right? So where do we draw the line between this "natural" medicine and anything we do as humans? Again, isn't it really just a matter of complexity and scale? Chimpanzees are capable of complex reasoning and construction-- complex compared to earthworms-- are chimps unnatural?

We have definitely had an impact, as a species, and that impact is very detrimental in some ways, but "detrimental" is not "unnatural." I think claiming we're capable of "unnatural" acts or states is tantamount to the theists' claim that we are "special" and somehow "different" from all the rest of the animals. We evolved to have big brains; our adaptation was intelligence. Intelligence is just a feature like claws or wings.

Look at Stephen Hawking-- he's only alive today because of modern medical technology but he's still a pretty valuable member of the species. For every genetic "weakness" that might be reduced in different environment there are genetic strengths enhanced in this, the human environment. Evolution has ALWAYS involved trade-offs.

« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 12:59:42 AM by Jezebel »

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String1248: "We Christian most certainly can use the bible to prove that what the bible says is true because I know that everything that comes from it is true. Christians confirm scripture with other scripture all the time."

Why not? The factors that determine whether the lifeform iis able to pass down its genes include how it interacts with other life forms. if bees pollinate a mutant version of the same flower more ofte because the mutant is more atttractive to the bees, how is that different from pople breeding a certain type of dog because we think wrinkled noses are "cute"?

Because the randomness is removed. Because natural selection[1] is all about the passing on of genes due to adaptation. This is random, and the specific individuals who survive get to pass on their genes.

Animal husbandry involves very little randomness, right? (Good breeders are thinking of the gene pool, though, when they make their selections.)

Did you see the evolving robots research I posted about in the Science forum? That research is an example of artificial selection that tries very hard to mimic natural selection. Why? Because studies are showing again and again that when random evolution is allowed, the best systems result.

for convenience I'll put the definition here: a process resulting in the survival of those individuals from a population of animals or plants that are best adapted to the prevailing environmental conditions. The survivors tend to produce more offspring than those less well adapted, so that the characteristics of the population change over time, thus accounting for the process of evolution

I am likely getting in over my head here, but nonetheless...

1. The definition of natural selection you cited in your footnote does not mention randomness. Can I infer that randomness, though expected, is not necessary for natural selection to occur?

2. Don't 'prevailing environmental conditions' also include other organisms? And isn't Man an organism? Why is man different than any of the other living organisms that make up the subject species' environment?

(Is this where a Christian points out that we're not like other organisms because God said so...?)

Note: i apologize for the crappy editing on my previous post; I was on my phone on my lunch break, and didn't have time to edit carefully. Mea culpa.

Did you see the evolving robots research I posted about in the Science forum? That research is an example of artificial selection that tries very hard to mimic natural selection. Why? Because studies are showing again and again that when random evolution is allowed, the best systems result.

This is being done with other tech as well.

As an aside, I found that article interesting in a way that made me go "Hmm, and I'd like to see more articles on similar experiments." It sounds really, really, cool, and as a result also has my bullshit antennae on standby. Because it sounds so awesome, and in synch with what I believe to be true, I have to be alert against buying into it immediately because i want it to be true.

But if this pans out, there are a certain sects of deists that are going to shit themselves, and not in a good way.

OK, point taken. That is one way to look at this. But I'm not sure that I agree with you.

How about this: is selective breeding with dogs "natural selection"?

Slightly off-topic: I do not recommend selective breeding with dogs........they tend to bite.

ROFLOL

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Sheldon: Ever since you started having regular intercourse your mind has lost its edge. You should reflect on that.Leonard: Well, Einstein had a busy sex life.Sheldon: Yes, but he never unified gravity with the other forces. If he hadn't been such a hounddog we'd all have time machines.

Well first of all the tooth fairy and Santa are made by the human imagination. The Bible says to fear the Lord first so this subject is at least correct. I'm glad you are sure that we will create technology able to detect or not detect an afterlife which is most likely composed of some other matter unknown to us. What is unbelievable is that people believe that matter just materialized in a vacuum of space and energy just surged all around by itself. The thought of matter manifesting all by itself belongs with the tooth fairy. I haven't seen one fact on this subject. Just uneducated opinions and video games.

I haven't seen one fact on this subject. Just uneducated opinions and video games.

No wonder you have such erroneous ideas about cosmology. I am glad to see you confess your ignorance on the subject. Before you comment on the subject further, I think it would be wise to read up on it first.

The Bible is ORGANIZED CRIME. The Book of Revelations is premeditated CRIMES depicted symbolically. The crimes are extortion and treason by the American Mafia who are motivating their MONEY generator slave, not just with fear, but more like terror. These terrorists are underground using physical force, abuse, torture, and mutilation to force the MONEY generator slave to generate the MONEY out of the system for them, the criminals, the creators of the Bible. Revelations is about a real Hell, underground, where victims suffer an eternity, their death is STAGED or an impostor is STAGED in their place and they become torture slaves or MONEY generator slaves. Fear is absolutely the motivator terrorizing the MONEY generator slave, which is why we are experiencing this cataclysmic, catastrophic, economic crisis. The MONEY is just being sucked out of the system for God, this criminal society. That has been God's Plan. God is not good, or imaginary, God is an Evil Society of Criminals violently abusing people, the system, our government, normal societies, and nations. God is a terrorist, the Antichrist, and the Beast, secretly terrorizing and robbing the world. They have technology that has the ability to spy through people's minds and communicate with them to terrorize them. That is the 'Mark of the Beast.' Their PLAN is the 'End of Times' and the 'New World Order.' Revelations is about victims suffering in a man made hell for eternity after their death or some other ACT has been STAGED, that is the afterlife. There is no afterlife in heaven, they just tell people that to get them to donate their MONEY. It's all about the MONEY. I need help because they are after me and my daughter, they took my mother 23 years ago and she is still alive. They STAGED her death, didn't let me identify the body, took her MONEY and her life insurance policy. My Uncle is the MONEY generator slave, in Revelations he is the Lamb, he is a financial analyst. Revelations is the worst CRIME the world will ever know.