Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

I do not agree. I think that the central chemical 1conclusions of the Leuchter report, although flawed, have 2now been substantially confirmed by a whole string of 3other reports in the meantime, both the one kept secret by 4the Auschwitz authorities and the earlier 1945 one, and 5the Gelmar Rudolf one, and other reports that have been 6conducted since then. Obviously the numbers do not 7exactly match, and you would not expect them to, but the 8broad trend is the same, very large quantities in the 9fumigation clambers, cyanide residues and not the 10quantities you would expect in the buildings where 11allegedly hundreds of thousands of people have been gassed 12to death with cyanide. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So you say. In order to set the scene, this has become a 14little bit disorderly, Mr Irving, because you keep 15referring to some documents we have and others that we do 16not. Leave that on one side for the moment. We are just 17going to do, if we may, a little bit of arithmetic. 18A.
[Mr Irving]
These documents have all been in my discovery. None of 19them have been concealed. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am not suggesting you are hiding anything from this 21court, Mr Irving, in the way of documents. Can you please 22turn in the Leuchter report in the front of your bundle. 23You may be better to use the copied one unless that has 24all 12 appendices. Appendix 12 to the copy of the 25Leuchter report that I have, my Lord, in the bottom right 26hand corner should be page No. 49.

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1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 2MR RAMPTON: This is Mr Fruisson's name written on the top of 3it, if you turn it sideways, has it? It has Fruisson 4written beside Appendix 12. Please turn to page 51, 5bottom right hand corner, that is the internal page number 6of the report. This is a document produced by the firm of 7Degesch, do you agree, who are the manufacturers of Zyklon 8B? I am not suggesting this is a wartime document. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
They are not the manufacturers. The manufacturers were I 10G Farbon. Degesch were the people who controlled the 11supplies and Tesh were the company who allocated the 12supplies. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The distributors? 14A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
If you look at page 55, you can see a picture of some tins 16of Zyklon B. That is only just mentioned in passing, so 17one can see there are three different tin sizes. I do not 18know what the rates were. If you look at page 51, in the 19left-hand column under hydro cyanic acid, which is the 20active agent in these pellets, is it not? 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
At the very bottom of the column we see that one part per 23million of hydrogen cyanide, that is a concentration, is 24equivalent to .0012 grammes per cubic metre. 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Now, if you turn backwards in this file to appendix 3, we

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1come to a translation of a wartime document. My Lord, it 2is page 23, which I think is a Nuremberg document, is it 3not? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, from the industrial case N I. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And we see that it is issued, I do not know the exact 6date, but it was issued presumably during the war, it must 7have been during the war, by the Health Institution of the 8Protectorate of Bohemia and Morevia in Prague. We find 9that on page 25. If you turn to the second page of this 10document, page 24, and look at IX towards the bottom of 11left hand column, we see there: 12 "The strength of gas and the time required for 13it to take effect depends on the type of vermin, the 14temperature, the amount of furniture in the rooms, the 15imperviousness of building. With inside temperatures of 16more than 5 degrees centigrade it is customary to use 8 17grammes of Prussic acid, that hydrogen cyanide, per cubic 18metre. Time needed to take effect 16 hours, unless there 19are special circumstances such as a closed in type of 20building which requires less time. If the weather is 21warm, it is possible to reduce this to a minimum of 6 22hours. The period is to be extended to at least 32 hours 23if the temperature is below 5 degrees centigrade. The 24strength and time as above are to be applied in the case 25of bugs, lice, fleas, etc. with eggs, larvae..." 26 If, Mr Irving, .0012 grammes per cubic metre

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1produces a concentration of one part per million, 8 2grammes per cubic meter produces, I can tell you, a 3concentration of 6,666 parts per million. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Wrong. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What? 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Wrong. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Why? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
You are talking about hydrogen cyanide. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, that is what they are talking about. 10A.
[Mr Irving]
But we are talking about pellets, and pellets only contain 11a small quantity of hydrogen cyanide sucked into them. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Who is talking about pellets, Mr Irving? I am certainly 13not. 14A.
[Mr Irving]
OK, carry on. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Where does it say anything here about pellets? 16A.
[Mr Irving]
If later on you start talking about tins of Zyklon B. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, I am reading from the wartime document. 18A.
[Mr Irving]
All right. As long as we are clear there is a distinction 19between the weight of cyanide and the weight of the 20pellets. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Degesch is talking in the other document we looked at 22about concentrations of cyanide parts per million of air. 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So is this document. Customary to use 8 grammes of 25Prussic acid per cubic metre? 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Hydrogen cyanide supplied.

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1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Nothing about pellets. So I am right, am I not? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
I do accept the point that it takes less Zyklon B or 3hydrogen cyanide to kill the vermin in fumigation chambers 4at lower concentration than it does to kill human beings. 5I accept this point. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
If you look at the Leuchter report, Mr Leuchter knows 7this, does he not? If you look at page 12, right hand 8column, the toxic effects of H C N gas under the bold 9heading, "medical tests show that a concentration of 10hydrogen cyanide gas in an amount of 300 parts per million 11in air is rapidly fading. Generally for execution 12purposes concentration of 3,200 parts per million is used 13to ensure rapid death." Mr Irving, that has nothing to do 14with this case, has it? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
I am lost. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am completely lost. 17MR RAMPTON: Page 12 of the Leuchter report. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not know what it is that, after a great 19many questions, Mr Irving said he accepted. 20MR RAMPTON: That you need higher concentration to kill lice. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought we established that about three 22quarters of an hour ago. 23MR RAMPTON: Yes. I am interested in the figures though. That 24is why I wanted to do the arithmetic. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am lost on the figures. 26A.
[Mr Irving]