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There are some good comments but there are also a lot of trash talk from folk that just like to tear down everyone ...

This is very true. I've gotten some constructive comments, but there is a substantial portion of the youtube audience who enjoy ripping people down behind the cover of anonymity. If I watch a video and I don't like it, I'll either find a way to say something constructive in a nice way, or I'll say nothing at all. But it appears many people don't think that way.

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Playing since age 21 (September 2010) and loving it more every day."You can play better than BachMach2." - Mark_CCurrently Butchering:Chopin Ballade no 1 in G minor Op.23My Piano Diary: http://www.youtube.com/sirsardonic♪ > $

It is a pity there isn't some sort of qualification required before people can post on youtube, intelligence or knowledge would be a good start.

I'm not bothered by mis-information and mistakes, I suffer enough from that myself, but spite, arrogance, lies and sheer stupidity.

Youtube have some work to do, IMO to tidy up their act.

It is a problem for me that an eleven year old cretin has the same authority as a professor in such a "democratic" setting.

In a forum like pianoworld you are to an exent held to account for your opinions, in itself that can be a problem, people can still decide to be nasty just for the sake of it, I suffered it myself, from a so-called "teacher"(!)although as a general rule it is a vast improvement on youtube.I believe that youtube themselves encourage flaming in order to promote their site.

As such much opinion on it is in, IMO, totally worthless.

The comment I like most is, "Adding comments has been disabled".

You will see much "critical appraisal", give the idiots a chance, of even great worksMany of the idiots claim than can do better, but will never actually prove it.

Youtube is a wonderful web-site providing me with access to people I genuinely admire and have huge respect for,

I use youtube mainly when pupils want to learn a new piece so we can listen to how it sounds before deciding if this is the best song for them.

Then when learning a piece of music I encourage pupils to listen to the original recording of the song, and if they don't have it on a CD then you can always find it on youtube which proves very helpful.

It is a pity there isn't some sort of qualification required before people can post on youtube, intelligence or knowledge would be a good start. . . It is a problem for me that an eleven year old cretin has the same authority as a professor in such a "democratic" setting . . .

I agree with you in part, but in reverse. The REAL PITY is that great performers, and their works, are even presented on such a frivolous medium! In the space of a moment or two, I can view and listen to Lisitsa, and then some kid, at home with a VideoCam, who has not bothered to comb his hair or put on both socks, "sharing" some of his music with us. The video quality is the same, and (due to digital processing, and storage, and RE-processing), so is the audio fidelity.

And because good (and great) artists who are still living somehow allow this, the professional recording industry has shrunk to a shadow of its former size, the “Classical” and “Jazz” sections of CDs and DVDs at Barnes & Noble are tiny and shrinking, and we are raising a second generation of youngsters who believe that pianos, ensembles, and even symphony orchestras, sound just like an ear pod.

There’s the “pity”.Ed

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In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

It is a pity there isn't some sort of qualification required before people can post on youtube, intelligence or knowledge would be a good start. . . It is a problem for me that an eleven year old cretin has the same authority as a professor in such a "democratic" setting . . .

I agree with you in part, but in reverse. The REAL PITY is that great performers, and their works, are even presented on such a frivolous medium! In the space of a moment or two, I can view and listen to Lisitsa, and then some kid, at home with a VideoCam, who has not bothered to comb his hair or put on both socks, "sharing" some of his music with us. The video quality is the same, and (due to digital processing, and storage, and RE-processing), so is the audio fidelity.

And because good (and great) artists who are still living somehow allow this, the professional recording industry has shrunk to a shadow of its former size, the “Classical” and “Jazz” sections of CDs and DVDs at Barnes & Noble are tiny and shrinking, and we are raising a second generation of youngsters who believe that pianos, ensembles, and even symphony orchestras, sound just like an ear pod.

There’s the “pity”.Ed

TBH that is an aspect I hadn't even thought of, I see your point but this digital age has cheapened much.

You can download the sheet music of the giants in a few seconds...

Is that good or bad?

I don't know, really I don't.

Perhaps You Tube should ONLY be used for amateurs?

Although if that happened performances like this might be swept under the carpet PDQ!!!

At the risk of taking OffNote's thread slightly OffTopic, I have the feeling you and I will have some very interesting dialogs.

My thoughts on the ability do easily download sheet music are three-fold, and are simply more rhetorical questions: *Does the ability to download desired sheet music equate to careful and studious use of those "scores", or is it just more clutter? *What effect has this free-for-all availability had upon the incomes of composers, lyracists, artists, and publishers, who invested sweat, tears, and money in bringing the printed page into being? *Is there any direct relationship between this age of digital availability, and the closing of (sheet) music stores, or the bankruptcies in the music printing industry?

And even further to your point, regarding the “entertainment” at the Julilee, that is certainly deserving of a DVD, and would be worth waiting for, and PAYING for. I believe that in such a format, it would be far less likely to be swept under that proverbial carpet.

Lots of questions, with no “pat” answers.Ed

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In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

There may be less classical (and other) music being sold because it can be gotten otherwise, and that is not good for the artists who are alive and recording, or their heirs, or those in the industry who invested in the recordings and need to make a profit. That is a negative, and a serious one.

When I was young my parents moved to a remote area and dabbled in farming. There was no money to buy music, and the local radio station transmitted the cheaper end of "popular music". The existence of concert halls, recordings of good music, and radio stations broadcasting classical music did me no good - no access. A young person in my circumstance nowadays can find whatever music he wants. I would have devoured it.

In the arts, "the industry" (music, literature, movies) seeks to make a profit, caters to the common denominator. It not only follows trends, it also creates them. It tries to shape the "youth market" etc. Even without the Net, our choices may not be as great as one might imagine. Again I go back to what was played on the local radio station, and what you'd find on the shelves of music stores selling records. Nowadays a young person is not stuck with whatever "trend" caters to his age: he can find Baroque, neo-classical, Gregorian chants were popular for a while - in the big mess that is the Internet many gems can be found.

You will get nonsense feedback, but you will also encounter the rare gem of a person willing to share his or her knowledge, whom you would never meet otherwise. I've encountered a few.

Speaking practically as a student, I can listen to any compare the renditions of a number of musicians playing the same work. It's not as simplistic as "Listen to how it sounds and copy it." Between a student and teacher, it can lead to a rich discussion about why Horowitz chose one interpretation, Rubinstein another, and Sokolovski still another. Even the choices of amateurs can be used for teaching points. I have also found rare versions which we cannot find for sale since they are not "popular enough" by the industry to be lucrative. When you know it exists, you can even try to purchase it when you find out from where.

Again as a student, when studying music history I looked to the Internet for examples. When it came to the oldest written music found and deciphered, the Lament of Seikolos, there are renditions of it played on the Lyre and sung. When studying the music predating Renaissance music, you can find examples including on period instruments. If understanding the rhythms of early Baroque music, you can find trained period dancers. I found a discussion between a cellist and the person putting together period dance, about the realism of certain rhythms of the time and the views from their two angles. What chance do we have of such a thing before the Internet.

It is HOW WE MAKE USE OF IT --- foolishly or wisely. And maybe our character and ethics are at stake, since we have choices to make.

When I was young . . . . . There was no money to buy music, and the local radio station transmitted the cheaper end of "popular music". The existence of concert halls, recordings of good music, and radio stations broadcasting classical music did me no good - no access. A young person in my circumstance nowadays can find whatever music he wants. I would have devoured it.

KeyString,You and I have posted enough on the same threads, enough times, that I can state UNEQUIVOCALLY that you are far from typical. Not minimizing your situation in any way, but I am certain that several of us could not get enough good music into our ears when we were growing up. In my particular case, I believe I made extreme use of the occasional LP my parents were able to purchase, and to which I listened on my Sears Mickey Mouse Silvertone (monaural) record player. Extreme use! So here’s an important point: I am not at all certain that I would have been better off having a wider variety of pieces from which to chose. Precisely because of the limitation, I was forced to chose wisely, and to completely absorb the little I had available.

My father attended ONE concert in his lifetime where the headliner was an international artist - Enrico Caruso. He spoke of it often for fifty years thereafter!

Originally Posted By: keystring

In the arts, "the industry" (music, literature, movies) seeks to make a profit, caters to the common denominator. It not only follows trends, it also creates them. It tries to shape the "youth market" etc.

All very true, and the profit motive has been one of the keystones of the business of music, literature, and the movies for years. But prior to the free-or-cheap-to-everyone mentality, there were certain standards co-established by the ARTISTS and the BUSINESS PEOPLE in those industries. For instance, a record company could not afford to produce a recording session starring Mortimer Snerd, when the cost to do YoYo Ma was only slightly more. They were assured of selling product with YoYo. And from the other end, if old Mort the Hurdy-Gurdy virtuoso wanted to put out a record, he had to come up to the level of Maestro Ma, or pay to produce it himself. Either way, there was a coarse refining process, where the stuff that got recorded, or bound into a book, or projected onto the big screen was, generally speaking, worth listening to, or reading, or watching.

As always, it is the short-sighted, in-it-for-the-fast-buck individuals and companies who cater to trends (fads), and much more the media that attempts to shape the markets, in the same way that they attempt to shape our thoughts and opinions, under the guise of “news”.

Originally Posted By: keystring

Speaking practically as a student, I can listen to any compare the renditions of a number of musicians playing the same work. It's not as simplistic as "Listen to how it sounds and copy it." Between a student and teacher, it can lead to a rich discussion about why Horowitz chose one interpretation, Rubinstein another, and Sokolovski still another. Even the choices of amateurs can be used for teaching points. I have also found rare versions which we cannot find for sale since they are not "popular enough" by the industry to be lucrative.

I cannot argue with the value of using this aspect of the internet for research, the same as samasap does for teaching. It is superior in both cost and efficiency. I would mention, though, that comparison of interpretations between artists has not just come on the scene recently. I have done it for years between recordings of various artists, and even recordings of the same artist from various periods in her/his career. And as far as auditioning music on which the student will work, how about the teacher looking at the scores (at a music store) and calling upon the mind’s ear ?

You mentioned the internet’s ability to allow you to investigate ancient, ancient music. I certainly cannot form a judgment here, except to offer this opinion: What you see and hear are truly a modern conceptualization and execution of ancient music (probably very scholarly handled). You are not experiencing ancient music.

Originally Posted By: keystring

It is HOW WE MAKE USE OF IT --- foolishly or wisely. And maybe our character and ethics are at stake, since we have choices to make.

I frequently have trouble separating my natural resistance to change (where things are absolutely fine the way they are ((were)) ); from my ability to evaluate the newer thing. A good, reliable acid test of me is the question, “Is this better?”

Dave Frank, a superb jazz pianist and teacher and Forum Member here, does all of his master classes “on line”. I would not currently be able to enjoy his fantastic presentations (mediocre sound and all) if it were not for the internet. So, that is better == OR == He would be forced to release them on DVD, as I have suggested to him. Better yet!

For research, the internet CAN be a wonderful, inexpensive, and fast tool, so that is better. That established, I am having trouble visualizing any other way that it is an improvement upon what preceded. And, as I have already mentioned, the drawbacks are many, and severe.

You folks will need to excuse me now. I want to get back to YouTube and see if that young fellow actually found his other sock or his comb.Ed

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In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

Ed, I've read your post a couple of times. On my point that there are places and circumstances where we do not have access to good music or music of our choice, and the Internet now helps fill that gap, you state that I am special and that you had only a small number of records when young which you played on a toy record player (fond memories - and less than ideal). I'll say that whether or not either of us is special does not affect the availability of good music. There is also a chicken and egg thing, in that exposure also affects tastes and opens ears. Without choice we depend on circumstance and the whims of those who provide music over the radio etc. - usually geared to the lowest common denominator and a formula for "what sells". I don't think that you can be against the idea of good music being accessible where it was not before. We can agree that finding such music there equals rummaging through a big pile of literally everything, but there are things to be found that would be inaccessible otherwise. I am referring to those who don't have access: not those who have the means because of where they live and what they can afford.

If there is such a thing as special people - say, people who have an affinity to music and potential of learning and of producing music - then we can agree that they occur everywhere in all socio-economic strata and everywhere. If so, then it is not right that some are stranded in a veritable puddle, with little chance to even know what exists because they rarely if every encounter it. Again, the same highway which brings misinformation and junk also brings information and treasures. At least there is a chance.

Originally Posted By: LoPresti

I would mention, though, that comparison of interpretations between artists has not just come on the scene recently. I have done it for years between recordings of various artists, and even recordings of the same artist from various periods in her/his career.

How does the fact that you have done this for years and that the act of comparing artists' interpretations is not new, take away from the fact that the Internet facilitates the ability to do so? Among other things, there is a teaching opportunity which does not exist if a student does not have access TO these various artist interpretations. Access is the crux of the matter. If you don't have the recordings then you can't listen to them, regardless of how long the practice has been around.

Originally Posted By: LoPresti

You mentioned the internet’s ability to allow you to investigate ancient, ancient music. I certainly cannot form a judgment here, except to offer this opinion: What you see and hear are truly a modern conceptualization and execution of ancient music (probably very scholarly handled). You are not experiencing ancient music.

I would hope that most people would be aware of that fact. The main point is that in any learning experience we can enhance what we are studying by finding additional sources. As a teacher I learned to include "resources" at the top of any teaching plan, right behind "aims and objectives". The period dances I saw had a fair bit of research and though behind them, and were executed by professionals. Understanding that the musician aimed to facilitate this dance also helps understand how you might want to perform it. Hearing something performed on a period instrument gives new information. You also hear piano performed in other eras, and this can lead to the different type of sustain which also affected interpretation, and/or mindsets of different periods. Having these extra resources are a rich tool for any teacher to draw on.

Originally Posted By: LoPresti

And as far as auditioning music on which the student will work, how about the teacher looking at the scores (at a music store) and calling upon the mind’s ear ?

I think that here you are referring to the idea of listening to a recording or performance in order to hear "how it goes". I wondered for a long time about CD's that accompany method books and such. The reality is, however, that in order for the mind's ear to work, a student first has to be able to read music. My thought is that if students always copy CDs (or material on the Internet) - will that prevent reading from taking place? Here we'd have to find out how individual teachers use recordings: as a tool or a crutch. For anything, HOW it is used is crucial.

I frequently have trouble separating my natural resistance to change (where things are absolutely fine the way they are ((were)) ); from my ability to evaluate the newer thing. A good, reliable acid test of me is the question, “Is this better?”

We spend a lot of time learning what works well, and we spend a very long studying our craft. At the same time, our society has been touting the "new" for the sake of being new for decades, and discarding the "old" for the fact of being old. A lot of this is due to commercialism. It is everywhere. Industry advertises, and if it can get at the mindset of the masses then it can get people to frantically seek the perpetually new. I remember reading Tofler's Future Shock as a teen, and picturing an increasingly rootless society. With no moorings, you'll drift endlessly, and be prey to every huckster.

In that environment it is especially natural to hold tightly to what we have and know, and suspect the new, because it IS often of that shallow variety. I suggest getting out of the old vs. new mindset completely - or at least not to look at any of it as a whole; a package. I also suggest not looking at it in the way "they" advertise it, but rather through our own values, our own goals. In fact, for those who can see it I think this is the big shift the Net has brought us. We're no longer inundated with teen music because we're teens, women's things because we're women, stereotypical products for stereotypes of ourselves because that's how marketers think. Potentially it is without structure, which means we can make of it what we want.

My question is: What do I want? How can I use this? That goes for the old and the new. In fact, the Internet gives me access to the old. I am including text and not just video in this.

Originally Posted By: LoPresti

“Is this better?”

Is there a generic overall "this"? Do we need to have a "better" and "worse" comparison and decide to discard one over the other? Or do we look at individual things? Might one enhance the other? Are there tools, opportunities, and treasures in that junkpile? Do we look at the junk, or at what is useful?

The reality is that locally we may have access only to poor teachers or no teacher at all. We may be fooled, because we don't know what good teaching is. Libraries? 15 years ago I was actually getting depressed when taking my children to the library because it was one vast shallowness. In the good old days there were books, and you had to imagine the rest. Often those books were dummied down. Essentially it was a desert dotted with candy floss for meals. That was my world, and I do not miss it.

I suggest that for those of us who were locked out for one reason or another, we actually have a chance to access your world through means of the Internet. It is a crude tool, and every tool can be used foolishly.

Youtube can help music lovers be it players/listeners, from wasting money by hearing selections before buying a CD/mp3, or if your exploring music outside your comfort zone..

Well, Bob, you are absolutely right, EXCEPT that, isn’t the general mentality this: “If I can listen to / watch / download / print off music for free, then why would I want to go to the trouble and expense of purchasing the CD / DVD / music book?”

Even further, “I love Diana Krall and her quintet. However, if one can watch and ‘listen to’ them on the InterNet, then why spend the dollars, and the effort to go to one of their concerts?” Now our “players/listeners” have saved, or not “wasted” their money, but AT WHAT EXPENSE ?

Without knowing it, we ARE paying the cost. The free-for-everyone phenomenon has all but killed a once-thriving American/Canadian/European music and recording industry, and with it, those industry standards of what is worth seeing and hearing. The only way to resuscitate what may be left, is for the better artists to absolutely refuse to play or appear “for free”.

Ed

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In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

Libraries? 15 years ago I was actually getting depressed when taking my children to the library because it was one vast shallowness . . . . . That was my world, and I do not miss it.

We need to think of these institutions as Media Centers, and then all our expectations sublimate away!

Here’s yet another topic where we are going to agree on the general principles involved, and go back-and-forth on the details. Without going point-for-point, I would like to POINT out that deprivation can be a good thing, because it makes one focus!

Originally Posted By: LoPresti

Extreme use! So here’s an important point: I am not at all certain that I would have been better off having a wider variety of pieces from which to chose. Precisely because of the limitation, I was forced to chose wisely, and to completely absorb the little I had available.

My father attended ONE concert in his lifetime where the headliner was an international artist - Enrico Caruso. He spoke of it often for fifty years thereafter!

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In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

Ed, I understand your father's appreciation of his one and only concert. My very few experiences were also much more meaningful to me than they would have been for someone who goes out every week for years.

But if we're talking about someone trying to learn and not having the chance to do so, and actual deprivation, there is little nice about it. You might say that hardship builds character, but character at the expense of opportunity is a high price to pay. If in this era people who want to learn have a chance to access information that was heretofore out of their reach, this is a wonderful thing .... and about time!

In terms of learning, yes the hunger to learn can create a powerful focus, but you have to have something to focus ON.

I will also say that at this stage in my life I cannot hear what a musician with decades of training can hear, though I can hear a lot more than I could, because of that lack of training. That also affects what I can focus ON in a different way. I would have preferred to have learned these things earlier. I am grateful that now I can, and for any natural abilities that allowed me to get what I did get. You might suggest that if I'd have had the opportunities I might have become spoiled and wasted them, and who knows - it might have been so.

I see some worries here about silly commens they can get etc.I'm not concerned about these at all because even during the normal recitalsYou can get some of these. You simply reject extreme comments from both ends and you'll have your median opinion. Also just the process of recording and preparing video is kinda a test and practice as well.

yes I love youtube! I makes it easy to get gigs and also I love getting feedback - how else can i improve

Hello, natvivi, and welcome to the Forums! You raise an important (albeit, probably rhetorical) question in your short post. Please be assured that I am not singling you out -- but, for those who may have similar thoughts: Long before we began to concatenate little words by simply capitalizing the first letter of the second, musicians were improving themselves in every way! Following are a few of the very simple methods that come immediately to mind:

[1] A person quietly ponders her/his own playing, and ask her/himself what it “needs”.

[2] A musician asks her/his teacher or musical mentor how s/he could make the biggest improvement.

[3] A person carefully listens to or visits a player who is obviously much better than her/himself, and asks her/himself how to move toward this higher level of playing.

[4] A person asks a knowledgeable friend to listen to her/him play, and critique.

[6] A person intentionally reads a definitive book on the subject of (pick one or several) rudiments, theory, jazz, musical forms, physics of tone production, how “the masters” practice, etc.

Stating the obvious, not one of these little improvement methods needs electronics. Indeed, each is very personal and focused, and therefore potentially useful and effective TO YOU. When the musician seeks advice, it is from one who is QUALIFIED to give it. That is how musicians improve.

Ed

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In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

I don't know, Ed. I thoroughly enjoyed Natvivi's work, and to my untutored eyes it looked professional. They won three out of three awards. One aspect of performers' existence is that they have to get known enough that they get opportunities to perform. If the social media can help, why not use it? Would Paul Potts or Susan Boyle have made it otherwise? Both of them seem to have had good teachers along the way and then got stuck. Susan's "I am 48 years old." speaks volumes. She just didn't know how to get out there, or didn't have the opportunity. Along the same subject, a performer might want to gauge the audience factor - what is it that they are looking for, or what is it that turns them off. Why not use any means available to find out?

That said, an acquaintance did some work as a new theater director, and she was mystified about a play they put on. The audience did not applaud, and they left the theater in silence. This happened night after night, yet every night the audience was larger. Finally she sat in the audience and saw that they were weeping, so moved by the play that they left speechless. It was not a failure but a huge success.

I agree that for learning your craft, nameless masses will not give proper advice and can mislead. There is a chance that somebody out there really knows something and for some reason will pause long enough to make a difference. If there is absolutely nobody in the person's surroundings, maybe that needle in a haystack can make a difference? If the needle can be distinguished from the hay. It's a long shot and recipe for possible confusion.

Well, as of late I do. In the last few months I've been contributing to the Piano Bar here on the forums. The Piano Bar gives me an objective. That is to learn a song, practice it and play it at least once without any glaring mistakes, sufficient to post it.

While I've only been posting for a few months in the last few weeks I began to wonder if I was achieving anything or was it just vanity? As I think about this morning it has occurred to me that the focus of learning and practicing a song well enough to post it is a great motivator to improvement.