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Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

You sound like a man of past experience Ian, I wish I wish I'd seen ahead enough to do my keel before planking too. One difference I've noticed with your boat compared to Grey Seal is that the frames dont go across the keelson, yours are in two seperate pieces. Is that a mod you've made or is that how its drawn?

Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

Hi Andrew,
Here are a couple of photos of my Eun na Mara Islesburgh under construction in 2005, off my friend Richard's website in Canberra (google Eun Mara Skerry). The Kotik design doesn't actually have laminated frames at all. I just copied the idea from the EM, which has two pairs of them, forward and aft of the mast. The Wee Seal/ Kotik design, with the interior all one space, has wide floors and long knees instead, or bulkheads which do the same job. I am putting four (pairs of?) frames in where there are no bulkheads, except that I am putting one anyway at the main cabin bulkhead as I don't know how much of it will be left below the deck with the cutouts for quarter-berths. (I will have to loft it.) Today I made patterns for floors which will connect the frames across the keelson and attach them to it. Pretty soon when a day warms up a bit I will have another big glue-up. There's a lot to be said for being retired.

Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

Thanks, Skara. Yes, I hope it will help other prospective builders, like you maybe. I know you don't need me to tell you how to do it, but it's always interesting to see how somebody else does a thing. Thanks for taking an interest.
Cheers, Ian

Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

I haven't been by in awhile and it looks like you're really going along very nicely, Ian. We've been out camping and DW has been piling up the miles on her 17 year (!) old Wee Rob double paddle canoe. Building that little boat for her was probably the best thing I've ever done for her, lol. I went along too in a borrowed kayak that was, let's just say, not made of wood. I'll be eagerly waiting for your updates.

Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

Hi Dale. Yes, I'm working on the Kotik almost every day now. Glad to hear you've been kayaking. I did a lot of that.
I would like to acknowledge here that it was your Alistego website that inspired me to all this boatbuilding when I discovered it about 15 years ago. You showed me how it was done. Thanks for that!
Ian.

Old Joke: A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship.
Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

Well, I'm making progress.

Here are the floors, glueing up. Like everything else so far, they are made from layers of kwila decking planks. They are specified as 1 1/2" (38 or 40mm, take your pick), which is two layers of plank, for 1/2" (12mm) keel bolts, but I decided to use 5/8" bolts instead, so I made those floors a bit thicker. There are six keel bolts, of which four go through floors and two just go through the keelson, unless I make floors in those places as well. The garboards are 12mm. The rest of the planking is 9mm.

This is the dry run of the reinforcing pieces along each side of the keelson. I had "thinnessed" them down to 16mm for some other reason, so I had to put a third piece on but didn't have another piece the same width.

Keelson side pieces and stems glued on.

You don't often see this! I thought I would be able to clean up the sides of the keelson in situ, butthat didn't work very well, and the side pieces didn't come out flush with the keelson anyway, so I lifted the whole thing off and cleaned it up on the floor, with power plane and belt sander. Handy Billy (block and tackle) came in very handy.

Keelson and stems all under control. This is checking the sheerline while the frames are still off. The macrocarpa batten is made from the two that I did most of the lofting with, scarfed together.

All glued up. These are all the parts that I have made so far. The frames are at stations 2,3,5 and 6. There will be bulkheads at 4 and 8. The floor at station 5 will be cut for the centreboard case. The frame there is short already. I have drilled pilot holes in the floors at 4,5,6 and 7 for keel and deadwood bolts, on the drill-press. I am thinking of making the "off-centre-board" case next and putting it in at the same time as the garboard. The side piece of the keelson also forms the case log on that (port) side. I will have to cut out parts of moulds 4, 5 and 6 to do that, but the floors will hold them together.

Andrew, I didn't quite answer your question about the frames. I have noticed that yours go all the way across your boat, which must have taken a bit of making. I haven't got my Eun na Mara plans any more but the way I built the frames was as they appeared to be drawn, and I have made these ones the same way. They all have floors across the bases of them. I'll tell you a bit more about my experience next time. Not that it's vast, but it's useful.
Cheers, Ian

Old Joke: A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship.
Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

I'm sure it'll be quite strong enough the way you're building it Ian. Most carvel boats are like that. IO actually said to me once he thought the frames could be almost done away with in my boat cos the lapstrake epoxied planking system is so strong.
keep up the good work, you're going really well.

Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

Thanks, Andrew. Iain said "almost"? I'm influenced by my Eun na Mara which had a laminated frame or a bulkhead or part-bulkhead at every station, and no compression post under the mast. I'm doing my Kotik that way too.
Cheers, Ian

Old Joke: A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship.
Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

More piccies, before I get too far ahead of myself.

This is the floor at station 5, which will be cut for the centreboard case to pass through. The keel bolts will be 5/8" instead of 1/2" (16mm,12mm) so I am making these floors a bit thicker in the middle.

The main cabin bulkhead at station 6 goes in the gap.

The wallpaper pattern gets smaller and smaller....

Starting to shape the keelson at the stern. Continued with handsaw, chisel and plane.

Using the outer stem to check the shape of the keelson, forward.

Copper for the deadwood, aluminium bronze for the ballast bolts.

But wait, there's more! (Perhaps I'd better do a posting more often!)

Old Joke: A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship.
Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

Pieces of oak, 4x6" (100 x 150mm) laid out on the the deadwood pattern.

Resawing oak for centreboard parts. I did two passes on each side on the tablesaw, then finished off by handsaw.

Some internal stress let go when I cut this piece.

Centreboard parts. These will be glued and fastened with copper rods and drifts. The wood is still slightly damp so I will leave it for a while before I glue it. Maybe I'll use polyurethane glue.

The state of play, forward....

...and aft. I expect to be fairing the keelson and frames for the planking this week.

Cheers, Ian

Old Joke: A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship.
Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

Hi Andrew,
The centreboard is 45mm thick. The hole is for 27kg lead. She's no lightweight!
I got the idea of doing the floors now from the Off-Center Harbor video series about the Caledonia Yawl, likewise the idea of laminating the inner and outer stems together. There will be more floors between these ones later, which I will fit to the hull, but I can get the shapes of them off the lofting. That video series was being made by Geoff Kerr at the time I was building my Sooty Tern. We were running neck and neck for a while. I was also referring to Geoff Kerr's articles in WB Mag. 183, 184 & 185, 2005.
Cheers, Ian

P.S. I just checked the weight of the lead in the c/board. The space for it is 10"x 7.5" x 1.75" (250 x 190 x 45mm). According to my 1964 book, the specific gravity of lead is 11.34, or a weight of 709 lb/cu.ft. According to my shakey maths, the weight of the lead is 53 lb, or 24 kg.

Last edited by IanMilne; 09-11-2016 at 06:41 AM.
Reason: weight of lead

Old Joke: A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship.
Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

Ian,
Indeed I do like it. I appreciate the work that has gone into it. It being both the boat and the posting of the thread.
The nicest part about this type of forum is we can be reminded there are others out there, eh?
Funny, we're all of us doing the same thing, really. Making dreams into reality with our life force.
Long live your beautiful dream!
Peace,
Robert

Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

Ian, in #46 first couple of pictures show what looks like to me the end of frame glued to a floor. But the frame looks like its sliced the "wrong" way as in a loaf of bread direction. please tell me I'm seeing things?

Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

Originally Posted by andrewpatrol

Ian, in #46 first couple of pictures show what looks like to me the end of frame glued to a floor. But the frame looks like its sliced the "wrong" way as in a loaf of bread direction. please tell me I'm seeing things?

This?

More of a floor to my eye than a frame, but i would be concerned if there is going to be some vertical fixings running through it. Have to remeber, even on a non laminated sold floor timber, you may have to drill vertical keel bolts, and horizontal fastenings into a frame, so depending on whether screws/lag bolts or proper bolts and nuts are used, may make it an issue or not. Not always possible to get the grain orientation right for every fastening.
EDIT: I just noticed a floor spanning across the keel, so know im confused....is this a frame Ian?

Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

Thanks for the comments, all of you.
Robert, that's well said. I am not alone! It's good being in touch with you people. Peace to us all!
Harvey, I know who you are, from your fine books about Alaskan and Greenland kayaks! Kayaking was my sport and passion for many years, (1968 to 1996 really). The kayak in frame was my 1970s effort, after I had built a couple of PBK 26 "Griffins", and they were good too. The frame one here I didn't really design, I just built it, from the drawings in "The Bark Canoes and Skin Boats of North America" by Adney and Chappelle, a truly amazing book. (I had a canoe too.) I did finish that kayak, but it was a very "wet ship", so I took the canvas off it to let the gunwales spring out a bit near the ends, put new deck beams in, and it never got any further. A pity really, but it has been an interesting thing following me around all these years. (I'm 72 now.) The yellow one I designed and built in 1981, lofted on a length of wallpaper, using the Alan Byde book I quote. In 1982 I took patterns off the side and bottom panels and built two stitch and tape plywood versions of it. I called the design "Dusky Bay". I used one of those for all my good trips in Fiordland, NZ, up to 1996. Then I took up dory sailing and camping, "sail and oar". But I digress....
Jim, That's a very impressive project you have going. Thanks for the comment, coming from you...
Andrew, Jim and Skara, Thanks for your concern. I don't mind at all. I agree that photo does look a bit peculiar. I have just been out to the shed and taken a couple more, which I will now proceed to post.
Cheers,
Ian M (There are a lot of Ians on here.)

Old Joke: A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship.
Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

My computer just played up but it's going again now.
Here are the photos I took tonight.

These are stations 4, 5 and 6. The idea is growing, to make and install the "offcentreboard case" before I do the planking. These moulds will all have to be cut out to make room for it, and support it. It goes right through to the bulkheads at 4 and 6. The floor at stn 5 will be cut out between the inner two of the four vertical lines you see here. This is the thickness of the two plywood sides of the case, enclosing the board. The side extension of the keelson forms the case log on that side. The mould will also be cut back (above, in the photo) for the other log, leaving the limber hole open, and that short part of the floor trimmed level. There are pilot holes for the keelbolts in these floors, which I will extend through the keelson. The bolts will be thicker than spec. so I have made the floors thicker in the middle.

Looking straight down. The "thickener" on this floor has already been cut out.

Old Joke: A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship.
Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

P.S. The bulkhead at stn 4 (the nearest one in the top photo above) goes right where the mould is, so if the mould was the same thickness as the bulkhead it would not have to be cut out, but it is thicker. The bulkhead will form the end of the case.
Ian

Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

Hi Ian,
The laminations are cut from kwila decking planks which are grooved on one side for walking on. From a 90 x 19 mm plank I got six 40mm laminating strips. From a 140 x 19 mm plank I got nine at 40mm or six at 60mm for the stems. The grooves you see here will be mostly cut away in the fairing process. The ones inside the piece are filled with glue. You can see a bit of that, down a couple of layers. The keelson is three layers at 16mm each, so I planed the grooved side off for those.
I think there are just two Ians here, you and me. I am also in touch with Ian Howick. See http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ght=Sooty+Tern. That was good.
Cheers,
Ian

Old Joke: A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship.
Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

Right you are, Sir!

Old Joke: A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship.
Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

This week I have been rough-shaping the pieces of oak for the keel and deadwood. As they were pretty heavy, I did most of the cutting on the floor, with kneepads. That floor is cold, and hard.

Then I drilled into the cut, turned the wood over and stuck nails into the holes,

and made the second cut with my smaller saw. All pretty basic, really.

Trying the parts against the pattern.

The rough deadwood, and a big mess. The parts are a bit over-width at this stage. Nothing the electric planer and belt-sander won't fix.

The parts are still a bit damp in the middle, so I have stacked them to dry some more before I finish them. The pieces in front are for the forefoot.

This afternoon I screwed the frames to the moulds and started trimming them level with the moulds where some were a bit proud, before I bevel them.

Cheers,
Ian

Last edited by IanMilne; 09-08-2016 at 06:37 AM.

Old Joke: A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship.
Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

Hi Skara, This oak doesn't seem to have much smell, that I've noticed.

In the last few days I have been reading all the WB threads Mr Google can find about gluing oak with epoxy, and the WEST company's report on its tests, both lab. and "realistic". I know there are strong opinions either way, and I don't want to start another round of debate. I am perfectly willing to glue it, after sanding it and wiping it with acetone or methylated spirits. I wanted to use locally available timber as much as possible, and oak is what I found. However, as the deadwood, or skeg, is quite prominent, it could possibly get bumped sideways, in which case some degree of flexibility would be an advantage. There will be four copper rods vertically through the deadwood and keelson, and I could bed the joints on some kind of strong adhesive-sealant. I expect to be epoxy-coating the outside, but then, if the joints are flexible, the coating might crack....

Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

I'm thinking West G-flex ( I vaguely remember people using it for difficult woods ) or perhaps 5200. These are only suggestions Ian, obviously you'd research if they're gonna be any good for your purpose. I take no responsibility if your keel falls off!!