Oh yes I get that... my point was that his comments felt more like a sledgehammer to me and I felt like he should have had more subtlety, especially considering that when he is revealed as evil it is a complete surprise to Gandalf and I find it hard to believe that conversation wouldn't raise suspicions.

I believe I read somewhere that Gandalf already suspected Saruman of wanting the ring. But the movies show that quite badly. In Fellowship Gandalf seems to be very surprised, and in the Hobbit he shuts his eyes the moment he hear Saruman talk behind him. :s

but he does have a physical form, he is the necromancer of dol guldar, (spelling) its just highly weakened, and the wizards don't know that he was the necromancer/back in physical form.

He does have a physical form in the books. Gollum even says that his black hand only has 4 fingers. In the movie, as I quoted, Sauron is not able to take a physical form yet. If he wasn't able in FotR, he wasn't in The Hobbit either, 60 years before. Unless he has one in the movie but it gets destroyed again.

---------- Post added 2012-12-17 at 07:45 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Gamdwelf

No, that is why he fled so he was not found out to actually be Sauron back in action.

Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur two times before the White Council intervenes. The first time, Sauron fled before Gandalf could see him. The second time, when Gandalf gets the map and the key to Erebor from Thrain, he confirms that the Necromancer is indeed Sauron. That'S why the White Council agrees to attack Dol Guldur.

He does have a physical form in the books. Gollum even says that his black hand only has 4 fingers. In the movie, as I quoted, Sauron is not able to take a physical form yet. If he wasn't able in FotR, he wasn't in The Hobbit either, 60 years before. Unless he has one in the movie but it gets destroyed again.

---------- Post added 2012-12-17 at 07:45 PM ----------

Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur two times before the White Council intervenes. The first time, Sauron fled before Gandalf could see him. The second time, when Gandalf gets the map and the key to Erebor from Thrain, he confirms that the Necromancer is indeed Sauron. That'S why the White Council agrees to attack Dol Guldur.

He does have a physical form in the books. Gollum even says that his black hand only has 4 fingers. In the movie, as I quoted, Sauron is not able to take a physical form yet. If he wasn't able in FotR, he wasn't in The Hobbit either, 60 years before. Unless he has one in the movie but it gets destroyed again.

I don't know much about the whole attack on the Necromancer, but that quote from Saruman, about Sauron not being strong enough to take a physical form, could that not have been in reference to their attack on him in Dol Guldur?

We don't know yet what is Peter Jackson's vision of the Necromancer. He may have a body and then it must be destroyed by the end of the trilogy, because Sauron has no physical form in Jackson's LotR. Or he may have none in The Hobbit, then his appearence will be kinda ghost-like or whatever.

I could see a vaguely humanoid, smoky cloud of darkness with one fiery eye.That would be a good tie to LotR...

Oh I understand there is other stuff going on. I just can't help but thinking the dwarves get, well, gipped. You've got a dozen dwarves taking a hike across half of Middle Earth to get their groove back and what happens? A hobbit uses one of the most evil artifacts in fantasy history to, well, cheat. That's what it is I bet. The ring seems like a cop out to me. Bilbo runs all around with it on and Sauron seems none the wiser. Frodo slips it on and Sauron is immediately all up in his business sending dead guys after him.

History-wise Sauron was already on the move. The whole Angmar episode showed that. Yet somehow he remained oblivious to the ring's presence in this book? I guess that really never set right with me.

Last edited by SirRobin; 2012-12-17 at 08:06 PM.

Sir Robin, the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot.
Who had nearly fought the Dragon of Angnor.
Who had almost stood up to the vicious Chicken of Bristol.
And who had personally wet himself, at the Battle of Badon Hill.

We don't know yet what is Peter Jackson's vision of the Necromancer. He may have a body and then it must be destroyed by the end of the trilogy, because Sauron has no physical form in Jackson's LotR. Or he may have none in The Hobbit, then his appearence will be kinda ghost-like or whatever.

I could see a vaguely humanoid, smoky cloud of darkness with one fiery eye.That would be a good tie to LotR...

just because sauruman said that doesn't make it true, hes a bad guy so he could have been lying to Gandalf.

Frodo had the Ring for years and years and years and wasn't afraid to use it.

Yes but I don't recall Frodo wearing it much. Bilbo wore it quite a lot in comparison.

Sir Robin, the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot.
Who had nearly fought the Dragon of Angnor.
Who had almost stood up to the vicious Chicken of Bristol.
And who had personally wet himself, at the Battle of Badon Hill.

Frodo had the Ring for years and years and years and wasn't afraid to use it.

Frodo never used the ring before unwittingly putting it in the Prancing Pony. Bilbo used it a lot.

Sauron sends the Black Raiders at Frodo far before he puts the Ring the first time. He knows only that a Hobbit named Baggins has it and that he's coming from a place far in the West called the Shire. It's the only info he got from Gollum.

---------- Post added 2012-12-17 at 08:16 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Gamdwelf

Because Sauruman was a bad guy, why do bad guys lie, because they are bad guys.

Even bad guys need motivations. And a cunning man like Saruman even more so.

Frodo never used the ring before unwittingly putting it in the Prancing Pony. Bilbo used it a lot.

Sauron sends the Black Raiders at Frodo far before he puts the Ring the first time. He knows only that a Hobbit named Baggins has it and that he's coming from a place far in the West called the Shire. It's the only info he got from Gollum.

---------- Post added 2012-12-17 at 08:16 PM ----------

Even bad guys need motivations. And a cunning man like Saruman even more so.

thats what I'm saying Saruman isn't nesissarily trustworthy to beleive about wether or not Sauron has a physical body.

I believe I read somewhere that Gandalf already suspected Saruman of wanting the ring. But the movies show that quite badly. In Fellowship Gandalf seems to be very surprised, and in the Hobbit he shuts his eyes the moment he hear Saruman talk behind him. :s

Well honestly he knows anyone would be tempted by the ring, he knows that he himself would be greatly tempted to use it. So it would make sense that he would think Saruman would similarly be tempted and want to keep it away. That doesn't mean that he suspected him of being evil. Wanting to use the ring isn't evil, what is evil is the way it corrupts people. I think it's right when Gandalf realizes that Saruman has a Palantír and has been using it that he realizes just how bad it is.

Also, Saruman is known for being a great persuader and able to convince people of nearly anything. So I just expected more

Originally Posted by SirRobin

Oh I understand there is other stuff going on. I just can't help but thinking the dwarves get, well, gipped. You've got a dozen dwarves taking a hike across half of Middle Earth to get their groove back and what happens? A hobbit uses one of the most evil artifacts in fantasy history to, well, cheat. That's what it is I bet. The ring seems like a cop out to me. Bilbo runs all around with it on and Sauron seems none the wiser. Frodo slips it on and Sauron is immediately all up in his business sending dead guys after him.

History-wise Sauron was already on the move. The whole Angmar episode showed that. Yet somehow he remained oblivious to the ring's presence in this book? I guess that really never set right with me.

Ah that's a fair point about the dwarves, though most of them were hardly paragons of the dwarven fighters.

I think you might be confusing Sauron being able to sense the ring with the Ring Wraiths. Sauron only really senses the ring being used three times. Once at the Inn at brie, again when Frodo was on Amon Hen, and lastly at Mount Doom. I think the reason he sense it at the Inn is hinged on the fact that the Wraiths were close by so he could sense it being used through them. Mordor obviously was right next to his center of power, he'd sort of have to be blind to not notice. The Amon Hen one is weird.. there is some intimations that the seeing seat there might be enchanted, but do not know for sure. Either way during the LOTR time period Sauron was FAR stronger than during the Hobbit.

The whole thing with wraiths feeling the ring far stronger is because they are the Nine Kings of men who were given their own rings of power and fell to despair in the war of the ring. Their souls were consumed by the rings and trapped, so they feel the pull of the ring that rules them much more keenly, and especially when it is being used. They are not around in the Hobbit though.

Originally Posted by Wilian

Frodo had the Ring for years and years and years and wasn't afraid to use it.

He wasn't afraid to use it (since he didn't know what it was) but he also didn't use it often and didn't use it to gain himself power which was what everyone else looking for the ring assumed anyone who found it would use it for. Plus until Gollum was found no one though about the hobbits having it.