I see no issue with this, they're not removing the ability to install software as a standard application. Only if you want to go through the closed store system.

Also the whole Apple owns iOS etc thing so we'll comply with closed systems is pretty silly. iOS is to phones that Mac OSX is to PCs. And the same with Linux, Android, Windows and Windows Phone.

- An operating system on a standardised platform, as evidenced by most manufacturers using the same chips, OSes being interchangeable with a bit of work (by XDA) etc and all with the same instruction set except on ARM instead of x86.

Notch just dislikes anyone cutting into his profits, there's a reason minecraft never showed up on steam either. That said we've all already declared that win8 is dead in the water so what's the fuss, no one's going to use it and MS will have to reverse course on win9 else no one will use that either.

BumpInTheNight:Notch just dislikes anyone cutting into his profits, there's a reason minecraft never showed up on steam either. That said we've all already declared that win8 is dead in the water so what's the fuss, no one's going to use it and MS will have to reverse course on win9 else no one will use that either.

I use a desktop to get away from the crap they push on you with tablets. I will NEVER get windows 8 if they continue with this sort of thing.

BumpInTheNight:Notch just dislikes anyone cutting into his profits, there's a reason minecraft never showed up on steam either. That said we've all already declared that win8 is dead in the water so what's the fuss, no one's going to use it and MS will have to reverse course on win9 else no one will use that either.

What he said is true. He is not being a hypcocrite. You expect a smart phone and a gaming console to be restrictive platforms. Millions of people have already shown they agree by purchasing the iPhone 5. One of those is made primarily to function as a phone. The other is made to play video games. A PC is made to be able to do whatever you want it to do. Microsoft doesn't like that. They already tried to make it so that in order to get their certification sticker manufacturers had to install restrictive bios that would only allow the PC to boot Windows.

They bring up a good point trying to use Minecraft for Xbox to point out that he is a hypocrite. Minecraft for Xbox has a ridiculously slow wait time for updates. Supposedly, the current new update is finished but it will be three weeks before it passes Microsoft's certification.

TFA:The certification scheme that Mr Persson has taken issue with is designed to illustrate that Microsoft has reviewed a program to confirm the code is "completely finished" and reliable when run on a Windows 8-powered PC.

numbquil:What he said is true. He is not being a hypcocrite. You expect a smart phone and a gaming console to be restrictive platforms. Millions of people have already shown they agree by purchasing the iPhone 5. One of those is made primarily to function as a phone. The other is made to play video games. A PC is made to be able to do whatever you want it to do. Microsoft doesn't like that. They already tried to make it so that in order to get their certification sticker manufacturers had to install restrictive bios that would only allow the PC to boot Windows.

They bring up a good point trying to use Minecraft for Xbox to point out that he is a hypocrite. Minecraft for Xbox has a ridiculously slow wait time for updates. Supposedly, the current new update is finished but it will be three weeks before it passes Microsoft's certification.

That's a big stretch - IMHO. Why do people EXPECT that? If Windows 8 becomes a huge success - in 10 years people will EXPECT the PC market to be as restrictive as cell phones are now. There is nothing about a phone or gaming console that requires that it be more restrictive than a PC? Nothing. There are countless Smartphones running Android; and plenty of people ran Linux on the Ps3.

People expect them to be restrictive because most of them are. That's it. It has nothing to do with how things need to be.

Beyond that - Windows 8 has more in common with iOS than it does with OSX.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all this "locked-down" environment stuff about Windows 8 - isn't that just in regards to MS's App store which is only going to be an issue on the Win-8-Tablet-version (whatever it is) because they're trying to copy Apple's walled-garden approach?

The average person buying the cheap (well, it's relative I guess) Home copy of Win 8 is still going to be able to install whatever crap they want.

CHARNAME:BumpInTheNight: Notch just dislikes anyone cutting into his profits, there's a reason minecraft never showed up on steam either. That said we've all already declared that win8 is dead in the water so what's the fuss, no one's going to use it and MS will have to reverse course on win9 else no one will use that either.

True story. Looks like Win7 is the new XP.

That's how its shaping up in my view for sure, XP proved that an microsoft OS can cling to relevance for 11+ years so its a safe bet that win7 will have at least that life expectancy to wait around for MS to stop forcing bullshiat changes on its users with future OSes for at least that long. Likely much longer since win7 addressed the largest technology changes since XP so effectively (proper x64 capability and SSD support). Its going to be a tough sell for MS to make me want to go up from win7, even as a gamer I laugh at the attempts via nixing backward compatibility in newer directx engines since to date the only games that have genuinely insisted on higher directx were mundane 'who cares' ones any ways.

fark software certification. It's absolute corporate bullshiat based on an operating system of lies. MS created the antivirus industry and the virus industry at the same time. They never cared one whit about whether your grandma could get an Outlook email that embedded a Word virus. Now they are pretending to be the grand gatekeepers of what's safe? fark you, Microsoft.

Terrified Asexual Forcemeat:fark software certification. It's absolute corporate bullshiat based on an operating system of lies. MS created the antivirus industry and the virus industry at the same time. They never cared one whit about whether your grandma could get an Outlook email that embedded a Word virus. Now they are pretending to be the grand gatekeepers of what's safe? fark you, Microsoft.

fluffy2097:cretinbob: Maybe if they rewrite Minecraft in something other than Java.....

Oh wait, I see that was covered.

Wait wait. Are you telling me you need JVM or JRE installed to run Minecraft?

yah and minecraft is ridiculously inefficient as a result. I have to go into the nvidia control panel and force vsync on the java engine itself otherwise MC will sit there burning up your GPU(s) at 100%, as one example. Also that whole 'minecraft eats 2GB of system memory' thing too.

Terrified Asexual Forcemeat:fark software certification. It's absolute corporate bullshiat based on an operating system of lies. MS created the antivirus industry and the virus industry at the same time. They never cared one whit about whether your grandma could get an Outlook email that embedded a Word virus. Now they are pretending to be the grand gatekeepers of what's safe? fark you, Microsoft.

BumpInTheNight:CHARNAME: BumpInTheNight: Notch just dislikes anyone cutting into his profits, there's a reason minecraft never showed up on steam either. That said we've all already declared that win8 is dead in the water so what's the fuss, no one's going to use it and MS will have to reverse course on win9 else no one will use that either.

True story. Looks like Win7 is the new XP.

That's how its shaping up in my view for sure, XP proved that an microsoft OS can cling to relevance for 11+ years so its a safe bet that win7 will have at least that life expectancy to wait around for MS to stop forcing bullshiat changes on its users with future OSes for at least that long. Likely much longer since win7 addressed the largest technology changes since XP so effectively (proper x64 capability and SSD support). Its going to be a tough sell for MS to make me want to go up from win7, even as a gamer I laugh at the attempts via nixing backward compatibility in newer directx engines since to date the only games that have genuinely insisted on higher directx were mundane 'who cares' ones any ways.

I agree completely. Even though it's not my job anymore. I still keep my hand in a lot of windows development, so I can see myself having some devices that run on Win 8+ in the future, but from a work perspective I seriously doubt that we will be replacing Windows 7 anytime soon. Hell, we JUST made the jump from Windows XP to Windows 7 and your assessment is absolutely correct - we run an enterprise environment so we are mostly concerned with stability. Both OS's are extremely stable - there is nothing that Windows 8 brings to the table that our business is going to want to adopt right away. I mean, really, they are just getting used to the idea of having an instant messager at work...

BumpInTheNight:yah and minecraft is ridiculously inefficient as a result. I have to go into the nvidia control panel and force vsync on the java engine itself otherwise MC will sit there burning up your GPU(s) at 100%, as one example. Also that whole 'minecraft eats 2GB of system memory' thing too.

Wow. I knew he was a hack. I didn't know he was H1-B Indian batabase programmer level.

BumpInTheNight:fluffy2097: cretinbob: Maybe if they rewrite Minecraft in something other than Java.....

Oh wait, I see that was covered.

Wait wait. Are you telling me you need JVM or JRE installed to run Minecraft?

yah and minecraft is ridiculously inefficient as a result. I have to go into the nvidia control panel and force vsync on the java engine itself otherwise MC will sit there burning up your GPU(s) at 100%, as one example. Also that whole 'minecraft eats 2GB of system memory' thing too.

Hi there. Computer guy here to let you know that you bought that GPU and that 2GB of ram for the purpose of using it.

fluffy2097:BumpInTheNight: yah and minecraft is ridiculously inefficient as a result. I have to go into the nvidia control panel and force vsync on the java engine itself otherwise MC will sit there burning up your GPU(s) at 100%, as one example. Also that whole 'minecraft eats 2GB of system memory' thing too.

Wow. I knew he was a hack. I didn't know he was H1-B Indian batabase programmer level.

For sure, I mean gotta cut him some slack this was likely his first project outside of getting a comp-sci degree that took off explosively and he didn't let go of the development reigns fast enough to accommodate. I'm also of the opinion he used jmonkey as a platform to develop minecraft due to its eerily similar methods like 'by default a game is 720p windowed' among other rather tell-tale signs. He should have brought in a more experienced developer much earlier in the process but meh hopefully if there's ever a 'minecraft 2' it will be built on a much more solid foundation. As an aside when I was poking around at that engine I stumbled upon a knock off called Mythruna which shows incredible promise. Its almost everything minecraft is but much more polished.

BumpInTheNight:For sure, I mean gotta cut him some slack this was likely his first project outside of getting a comp-sci degree that took off explosively and he didn't let go of the development reigns fast enough to accommodate

I could cut him slack for that, but it sounds like he'd rather double down on his derp then admit his mistakes.

When I see a situation like minecraft chewing up much more resources then Skyrim despite the vast difference in quality I know something isn't quite right, especially when I can flip one simple flag and it suddenly drops down to a fraction of those resources used while still playing just as smoothly. I understand minecraft was for the most part a one man operation vs skyriim was a whole team of highly skilled professionals, at this point though with minecraft's success you'd hope it's code would have improved accordingly.

Zel:yah and minecraft is ridiculously inefficient as a result. I have to go into the nvidia control panel and force vsync on the java engine itself otherwise MC will sit there burning up your GPU(s) at 100%, as one example. Also that whole 'minecraft eats 2GB of system memory' thing too.

Hi there. Computer guy here to let you know that you bought that GPU and that 2GB of ram for the purpose of using it.

The game works great.

Hi there. Computer programmer here to let you know that such a simple game shouldn't require 100% of your processor power every second that the game is on, or even half of that 2GB of memory in order to run Minecraft.

Terrified Asexual Forcemeat:fark software certification. It's absolute corporate bullshiat based on an operating system of lies. MS created the antivirus industry and the virus industry at the same time. They never cared one whit about whether your grandma could get an Outlook email that embedded a Word virus. Now they are pretending to be the grand gatekeepers of what's safe? fark you, Microsoft.

Strawman argument aside, ya *do* know Apple already did this with iOS, and have implemented the whole "certified" program thing in their recent version of OSX that will block any installation unless approved by them unless certain security settings are disabled, right? And Android doesn't let you install applications unless you go into the settings and check off certain boxes beforehand? But keep on acting like MS is the only one in the industry doing this. It makes it easy to point out the idiots.

BumpInTheNight:When I see a situation like minecraft chewing up much more resources then Skyrim despite the vast difference in quality I know something isn't quite right

No shiat, dude... Your Minecraft is taking up more resources than Skyrim? And I know you run your games in the highest of details with a metric shiat-ton of mods (you've given me plenty of advice in the past for games like Fallout 3 and Oblivion)... how the hell are you pulling that off?

hogans:Computer programmer here to let you know that such a simple game shouldn't require 100% of your processor power every second that the game is on, or even half of that 2GB of memory in order to run Minecraft.

While running it inside of Java definitely adds overhead, you're forgetting one important design element of Minecraft versus a more traditional 3D game: voxels.

The 3D environments in Skyrim are actually vastly simpler than the ones in Minecraft. They don't seem simpler, because they're heavily texture mapped, but they're far simpler to describe. There's a reason game designs don't tend to use voxels if they can avoid it- but Minecraft can't avoid it. The entire purpose of Minecraft is to be a voxel-based world.

I wouldn't blame Java for Minecraft's resource hoggery- not when the architecture of the 3D world isn't based on meshes and models, but instead on voxels.

RoxtarRyan:Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: fark software certification. It's absolute corporate bullshiat based on an operating system of lies. MS created the antivirus industry and the virus industry at the same time. They never cared one whit about whether your grandma could get an Outlook email that embedded a Word virus. Now they are pretending to be the grand gatekeepers of what's safe? fark you, Microsoft.

Strawman argument aside, ya *do* know Apple already did this with iOS, and have implemented the whole "certified" program thing in their recent version of OSX that will block any installation unless approved by them unless certain security settings are disabled, right? And Android doesn't let you install applications unless you go into the settings and check off certain boxes beforehand? But keep on acting like MS is the only one in the industry doing this. It makes it easy to point out the idiots.

It's a tinfoil hat/slippery slope argument. "If we let MS "get away" with introducing an ARM O/S that has the same kind of restrictions as all the others, they will then extend this to the x86 platform on laptops and desktops. They don't explain why they think MS wouldn't do this anyway, if they thought it would work to their advantage.

RoxtarRyan:No shiat, dude... Your Minecraft is taking up more resources than Skyrim? And I know you run your games in the highest of details with a metric shiat-ton of mods (you've given me plenty of advice in the past for games like Fallout 3 and Oblivion)... how the hell are you pulling that off?

It scales poorly when it comes to resolution is pretty much the chief one and also that mention of how it doesn't offer the option to vsync to cap FPS. IE for the vsync thing without it the game will climb to 9999 FPS (probably higher but that's as high as fraps acknowledges) if you have enough GPU power to let it so I forced it down to 60 so it wasn't burning up the GPUs needlessly. Then for resolution going up to 1080p will almost double its vram foot print (which to be fair is the way it works with pretty much any 3d engine)...then going up to 3x1080p and it gets redonculous :P It was mainly about the lack of vsync though, with vsync forced onto the java engine minecraft at full detail + 5760x1080 resolution only uses 15% of my 3xGTX580 cards, without it minecraft just doesn't know how to say 'that's good enough' and stop trying to run as fast as it can.

jso2897:It's a tinfoil hat/slippery slope argument. "If we let MS "get away" with introducing an ARM O/S that has the same kind of restrictions as all the others, they will then extend this to the x86 platform on laptops and desktops. They don't explain why they think MS wouldn't do this anyway, if they thought it would work to their advantage.

I'm not so sure MS will put the kind of restrictions a portable device has on its desktop environment (even if they do, like Apple, it will no doubt be jailbroken in time). It will mean the final nail in the coffin for not only gamers, but pretty much any software creator who has a legacy program or who may not have the resources available to make their program "certified" (not sure if MS charges any kind of fee for the certification). Though they have already stated that, like Android and the new version of OSX, you can load software without being "certified", it isn't anything new still. On one hand, it is a way for people who aren't tech savvy to help them pick out that "plugin" that a website wants to download so you can watch the newest episode of "Housewives in Antarctica" isn't really a safe program to load, but on the other hand, it may make things a bit more tricky to install legitimate non-malicious 3rd party software. My best guess is that there will be a security setting that you can toggle to allow non-certified software to be installed, but it won't be easy for Grandma and Grandpa to locate. To outright not allow any software not certified to be installed would be suicide, since working in IT for a pretty big company right now, there are tons of programs we use that we wrote in-house for troubleshooting and repairing/maintaining machines. If we can't use those? That means no less than 38,000 enterprise copies of Win8 are sold. Moving on, the gaming industry, Hollywood, and every other industry uses in-house programs to do their specific craft, and if MS tells them they can't anymore? Death by suicide, not death by competition.

Moving on... Working in the IT field... I kind of get it. Some of the worst malware and viruses people can get aren't the ones they get just by visiting a website or viewing an email, but by downloading fake "plugins" and crap off of Limewire-like programs (yes, for the record, I know people who still use those old-school P2P programs). If the whole "certified" deal is only a label that is attached to the program that helps point out that the software has been checked out and is OK, then that means less calls for me at 3am asking me to come over and fix his computer because his report due at 8am is botched since he tried to torrent a fake copy of Mass Effect 3 and the virus fragged his system. But, also working in the IT field... goddamn, those people are my job security! Ah well....

broadsword:The average person buying the cheap (well, it's relative I guess) Home copy of Win 8 is still going to be able to install whatever crap they want.

Yes, exactly.He's not being a hypocrite because he doesn't need to certify his game or sell it via the MS app store. There is no requirement (yet) that an application be certified to run or install on Windows 8. He's just telling MS, "fark your app store certification."

jso2897:RoxtarRyan: Terrified Asexual Forcemeat:It's a tinfoil hat/slippery slope argument. "If we let MS "get away" with introducing an ARM O/S that has the same kind of restrictions as all the others, they will then extend this to the x86 platform on laptops and desktops. They don't explain why they think MS wouldn't do this anyway, if they thought it would work to their advantage.

it is a done deal. WIndows 8 on ARM works this way. You cannot load desktop apps, and all Metro apps must be certified.

For the record, Microsoft introduced desktop app certification in the Windows Me days. They tried to make app certification mandatory for OEM use of Windows 2000, WIndows XP, Vista, and Windows 7 and failed. The current crop of E-mail solicitations is just another round for a long-running app store.

The true danger is that Microsoft added enough OEM guidelines in Windows 8 to make desktop apps come under scrutiny in hardware certification. Microsoft is currently rejecting system and device certifications based on how desktop apps and device control panels interact with the new features of Windows 8. Those changes will get into the mainstream because the affected developers don't want to maintain two code trees. As developers get used to complying, they be more amenable to Microsoft enforcing it directly upon them.

ReverendJasen:broadsword: The average person buying the cheap (well, it's relative I guess) Home copy of Win 8 is still going to be able to install whatever crap they want.

Yes, exactly.He's not being a hypocrite because he doesn't need to certify his game or sell it via the MS app store. There is no requirement (yet) that an application be certified to run or install on Windows 8. He's just telling MS, "fark your app store certification."

And the other reason is because I have found, over and over, that whenever the developer speaks he comes off like a dickbag. That's the combination of a douchebag and a dick, just in case you wondered. He seems like a real jerk, and I really don't want to support him in any way, shape, or form.

So, in short, Notch can shove his fake LEGO block game up his ass until he develops a personality that isn't grating, obnoxious, and self-centered as all hell.

oren0:Buying a Surface or other ARM tablet is like buying an iPad. I don't see people up in arms that they can't install whever they want on an iPad.

Problem is, the brand Windows is damn near synonymous with "able to install whatever I want on it". People are approaching the ARM flavor of Win8 like "huzzah! I'll be able to run all my Steam apps on the road!", when it should be approached more like how people approach what they can do on iOS vs OSX.

ZeroCorpse:For one, it just sounds like LEGO on your computer. Woopee.

jso2897:It's a tinfoil hat/slippery slope argument. "If we let MS "get away" with introducing an ARM O/S that has the same kind of restrictions as all the others, they will then extend this to the x86 platform on laptops and desktops.

They already are. Have you seen Windows 8? It pretty much treats the desktop as legacy baggage; it's clear from even a cursory examination that they're looking for a way to get rid of it.

Fark_Guy_Rob:ReverendJasen: broadsword: The average person buying the cheap (well, it's relative I guess) Home copy of Win 8 is still going to be able to install whatever crap they want.

Yes, exactly.He's not being a hypocrite because he doesn't need to certify his game or sell it via the MS app store. There is no requirement (yet) that an application be certified to run or install on Windows 8. He's just telling MS, "fark your app store certification."