Tory attacks on Alistair Darling show that WMD Unionism is MAD

I don’t really understand why politicians spend so much time talking to journalists. Most of the time little good can come from doing so. Of course, from a personal or professional perspective, this is fine and adds greatly to the gaiety of trade and nation. Nevertheless…

Take, for instance, the reports in today’s Financial Timesand Daily Mailin which “senior” government sources stick their shivs into Alistair Darling. The leader of the Unionist campaign fighting next year’s referendum on Scottish independence is, we are informed, “comatose most of the time”. A different (I think) Downing Street figure complains that Darling is a “dreary figurehead”.

Meanwhile in the Mail, Gerri Peev finds another “senior parliamentary figure” who complains that Darling is “useless”. Perhaps he is but since the source then suggests Jeremy Hunt would be a useful weapon for Unionists to deploy we may safely conclude that this particular Tory is, to use the proper technical term, a fucking zoomer.

Guess the source is, of course, an entertaining parlour game. We may, I think, presume that the “senior parliamentary figure” is not a cabinet minister and not, on this showing, likely to be promoted.

The redoubtable Peev quotes a cabinet minister saying “We could be in real danger, we are not in any way complacent about this. The independence side have an easier sell.” There are, this source adds, suggestions that Gordon Brown will be hauled from his tent to play a part in the campaign: “We have to remember he is more popular in Scotland than he is in the rest of the country. But God help us if it takes Gordon to win the referendum.” The casual, familiar, reference to ‘Gordon’ rather than ‘Brown’ makes me wonder if this source is a Scot but perhaps it doesn’t really matter who it is.

All this nonsense has Iain Martin and Alan Cochrane spluttering into their claret. And with good reason. Darling is not an exciting – or an excitable – figure but the Unionist campaign needs a steady hand at the tiller. It has not always enjoyed that.

As Mr Cochrane notes, the suggestion we shouldn’t vote for independence because if we did mobile phone bills might increase is the sort of juvenile imbecility that discredits the Unionist cause much more severely than you might think. It makes a mockery of the argument. Ask Nick Clegg how easy it is to recover from mockery.

But reading the FT’s report one has the sense there are English Tories who think the problem with the Better Together campaign is that it has not been negative enough. I can assure them that this is not the case. Not when viewed from Edinburgh it ain’t.

Nevertheless, these English Tories seem to think that the UK government should drop its vast reserves of napalm on Scotland. It could, of course, and there’s no doubt this would have some impact. But at what cost?

Since Unionists are asking Scots to vote No some negativity is unavoidable. But it is not enough. Because in this campaign how you win matters nearly as much as actually winning in the first place. The vote will not be the end of the story, not by any means. And we will still have to inhabit the same sodden, freezing country. A scorched-earth Unionist campaign might well prevail but it would do great damage to Scotland – and the Union – in the process. It would leave Scotland a battered, sullen, resentful country of no use to anyone, least of all itself.

Which is why the WMD option, if you will, is MAD.

Then again, perhaps these Tory briefers are actually SNP moles. They might as well be.

A very interesting article. The problem the Better Together campaign has is that it cannot increase enthusiasm for the Union in Scotland, because there is very little active enthusiasm for it in the first place. The Union is accepted as the long-standing status quo, but every Scot knows that it entails Scotland’s subordination to England. It’s been a practical, business arrangement, not something to get excited about.

On the other hand, regaining our independence, taking responsibility for our own affairs, having direct contact with other countries, taking our place in the councils of the world, not being dominated by one other country, regaining our national dignity, is exciting. And also having the world see where England ends, and not having to explain, abroad, that our country is not a region within it.

Martin_Kinsella

The Tories desperately could do with someone of the gravitas and intellect of Alistair Darling.

andagain

I suppose the obvious explaination is that English Tories don’t give a d**n about Scotland. Or northern England, for that matter.

MichtyMe

I ken I’m am auld fogie but whit’s a “zoomer” Tried looking it up but I’m nae the wiser.

Maybe fucking zoomer Jeremy Hunt could be launched into the fray through an interview with James Naughtie?

startledcod

‘It would leave Scotland a battered, sullen, resentful country of no use to anyone, least of all itself.’ No change then; chips-on-the-shoulder with everything.

scotcanadien

You mean like the English are now. They are so resentful at Scotland dumping them that all they ever do is whine and insult about it. Grow up. Get a pair. learn to stand on your own feet without Scottish help; you’re gonna need to.

startledcod

This is a wind-up isn’t it, you cheeky thing you. That Scottish help, can’t get enough of it, RBS, BoS, Barnet formula, we could do with more of that help.

scotcanadien

RBS, HalifaxBOS, Barnett Formula. The first two are UK banks which had only10% business in Scotland. HalifaxBOS really an English bank by your definition. Barnett formula … you obviously don’t know what you are talking about since you can’t even spell it.
When rUK is cut off from Scottish Oil and you have kicked yourself out of the EU and are whining constantly about England becoming a banana republic I hope you’ll remember what I told you here today.

Wessex Man

Listen here you little old Lumberjack you.

Depite Alex Salmond having taken down from the SNP site I still have a copy of his letter to Sir Fred (the Shred) Goodwin, in which he congradulates him on his acquisition of ABN in March 2007 in which he said- ‘I wanted you to know that I am watching events closely on the ABN front, it is in Scotlands interest for RBS to be successful and I would like to offer any assisstance my office can provide.’

RBS acquired ABN for £49 billion, only to find that it had also acquired a dud. We all know what happened next RBS went bust and had to be bailed out by the UK Government to the tune of £45 billion MAGIC.

He also managed to lose his speech to Harvard University in which he described the Arc of prosperity of Ireland, Iceland and Norway and the remarkable success of indigenous companies including the RBS.

‘We Scots are lucky enough to have one of the best brands in the world- a global recognisation and affection for our culture that money can’t buy. Take financial services, with RBS and HBOS two of the world biggest’s bank, Scotland has global leaders today, tomrrow and for the long term!’

Then when they both had to be bailed out and they suddenly became UK Banks, a typical Fat Controller trick, why he even had the forsight to want to join the Euro till that collapsed! YOU COULDN’T MAKE IT UP!

I’ll take my chances in the Banana Republic thank you very much!

HJ777

Salmond’s words from an article in the Times on 7 April 2007:

“We are pledging a light-touch regulation suitable to a Scottish financial sector with its outstanding reputation for probity, as opposed to one like that in the UK, which absorbs huge amounts of management time in ‘gold-plated’ regulation.”

John Swinney (SNP Finance Minister), said in a letter at the time that the deal was “an enormous achievement for RBS” that helped make Scotland seem “an attractive place to do business”.

scotcanadien

Why do you and old Westie keep going on about irrelevant historical statements? Nobody cares. We are more interested in the future.

HJ777

Because it demonstrates that the judgement of Salmond and Swinney cannot be trusted when it comes to what is, and what is not, a good deal for Scotland.

Or are you not keen on evidence?

MichtyMe

They were not responsible for financial regulation, none of their business, outside the loop, in that matter they were just members of the general public but we do know who should have known.

HJ777

The ABN-Amro takeover was nothing to do with the regulator since it was a foreign bank.

If they were ‘outside the loop’ why did Salmond offer “any assistance my office can provide” and say “good luck with the bid”?

The SNP’s proposals on regulation have, in any case, been a shambles. Swinney has said that he wants future banking regulation in an independent Scotland to remain the responsibility of the UK regulator – a proposal that SFE has pointed out is almost certainly contrary to EU law.

They really are a shambles.

Jambo25

You might wish to reconsider your first sentence in light of the report of the Treasury Select Committee published on 19th October, 2012. A digest of this report is to be found on http://www.parliament.uk. The heading gives a taste of the report. “FSA should and could have intervened in RBS takeover of ABN AMRO says Treasury Committee Report”.

HJ777

It may say that, but nobody at the time thought so – including Salmond and Swinney, the only politicians who commented at the time, or who offered direct support. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

In any case, it matters not – Salmond and Swinney were cheerleaders for the RBS takeover of ABN-Amro, and Swinney has said that he plans for the current UK regulatory authorities to regulate Scottish banks even after independence (even though this is probably illegal under EU law). Presumably they want this so that they still have someone else to blame.

Jambo25

it did say that and either you or the Treasury Select Committee plus virtually everyone else is wrong. My money’s on you.

HJ777

Hold on a minute – the SNP position is that Scottish banks should still be regulated by exactly the same bodies (the FSA amongst them) after independence. The only politicians that offered the support of their office in assisting the deal were Salmond and Swinney. You can imagine their indignation had an evil London-based regulator intervened.

They can’t have it both ways.

What you appear not to understand is that the FSA and others may have regulatory authority over UK-based banks but they had none over ABN-Amro. The problem was that RBS in an act of hubris, took over ABN-Amro despite the fact that ABN-Amro was a basket-case. It would have brought down RBS even if RBS had been sound – and the Treasury Select Committee did not say otherwise. Hector Sants has made it quite clear that the FSA did not have the legal power to intervene.

Jambo25

We now, at last, have a reformed system of Bank Regulation. It’s called the FCA. Take up your complaints with the TSC. Once again; if I am asked to choose between their judgement (Chairman is Andrew Tyrie: a Tory MP.) or you; I’ll choose the TSC.

HJ777

Who cares about your choice? You have very poor judgement and understanding when it comes to anything concerning financial or economic matters. As Hector Sants has made clear, he had no legal powers. I prefer to believe him.

Now perhaps you would explain why Salmond and Swinney were cheerleaders for a commercial deal that was not the business of politicians, which numerous financial commentators warned was not a good deal, and why they blamed UK regulators while still proposing that they regulate Scottish banks were Scotland to become independent.

HJ777

And if you read the report, it clearly admits that the FSA had no specific powers to stop the deal and that it could only have done so indirectly by, for example, setting higher capital requirements for RBS.

This, of course, would have set an unusual precedent because these capital requirements are set industry-wide and not for specific banks. Questions would then have been asked about why this was not also done for other banks because RBS was not the only bank that failed.

Hector Sants was right.

Jambo25

So, by your own admission the FSA could have stopped the deal. You are simply wrong. The FSA could also, in time honoured fashion have taken Goodwin aside and made it’s feelings known. Totally unofficial but done nevertheless. It did nothing. That’s why the TSC attacked it.

As Sants was pointing out, he is being criticised for not doing something for which he had no remit or direct powers. He was, apparently supposed to use powers reserved for different purposes to intervene in a way that was never intended.

By the way, I’m still waiting for your defence of the SNP’s farcical position.

Fergus Pickering

Ahyes. This statement is now non-operative. Salmond studied at the political school of Richard Nixon.

terregles2

Where did George Osborne study economics, Was it while he was folding the towels in Selfridges or on his data entry job with the NHS.?

Wessex Man

It’s not historical pal unless you think yesterday was history and all events from then is history. The Fat Controller was and is still there and the shambles created by his mate Fred Goodwin is still with us. how you to duck and dive when confronted with the truth.

MichtyMe

Goodwin was a Westminster advisor and honored by them.

Wessex Man

I’m surprised that you would say such a thing, I have always regarded your views as fair and truthful, people like scotcanadien like pretend things had nothing to do with Salmond when he was the Cheer leader of the whole sorry story.

MichtyMe

Surprise why. The Scots Gov doesn’t hand out honors and Goodwin certainly sat on a panel advising the Westminster administration on financial matters until January 2009. There is even a piece, here on this site, in March of that year on this. Sorry I do not have the skill to link to it.

terregles2

Salmond’s words from 2007.? I suppose you will be suffering from amnesia if we ask you to quote the venemous abuse that Ron Northcott and Lord Monckton spewed about the Scottish people rather more recently.

Wessex Man

unbelievable, your dopey mate scotcanadian makes a really stupid lying statement, I correct him with fact, HJ777 then further backs my real facts with real facts and you come out with a load old, extremely old rubbish form another subject! BTW I thought you were not going to debate with HJ777!

scotcanadien

Fick me. Wessex man is actually making a speech instead of his usual anti-Scottish insults. I REALLY must have rattled his cage. It’s allright old West Head Banger from the Telegraph, we know who you are: a dying old boy in an old folks home. If your anger keeps you alive good on you. But Scotland will be free long after you have gone into the urn.

Wessex Man

The usual thick headed reply I would expect from a cybernat nutjob who has run out of any useful arguments, I never insult the Scots, just Scots like you and the ever dim Jambo25.

Jambo25

Ireland, Iceland and Norway all have living standards higher than the UK.

Wessex Man

Give me your proof about the Irish, We are meeting an Irish couple on holiday who would call you a fool to express such a view and they don’t even know you.

Jambo25

Why don’t you look up the comparative figures on any one of a number of published tables showing GDP and GNP per capita. The easiest to find is the CIA World Fact Book. You know, the left-wing Scottish Nationalist CIA.

Their estimate of the 2 countries’ GDP?GNP per capita is as follows Ireland-$42,500 pa. UK $37,500 pa. Give me your figures if you have any.

HJ777

John Swinney (SNP Finance Minister), said in a letter at the time (of the RBS takeover of ABN Amro) that the deal was “an enormous achievement for RBS” that helped make Scotland seem “an attractive place to do business”.

MichtyMe

Unfortunate but understandable, the BoE nor the FSA never confided in Swinney or his administration, they kept their wisdom for the Westminster lot, who also honored their advisor Goodwin.

Wessex Man

oh what a cop out, you’ll be telling us next that when independent you will be getting very angry and stamp your feet when the Fat Controller starts getting more wrong and blames we wicked English for not warning you when he makes a pratful.

MichtyMe

I suppose that makes Osborne and Cameron prats also.

Wessex Man

It most certainly does, just listed to Osborne’s fairytale.

terregles2

Independence will mean that Scotland will be a vibrant forward looking optimistic country. We will face lots of challenges but for the first time in our lifetime we will be in control of the people we choose to put into our parliament.
Independence will not solve every problem and we will, like every other country have difficult decisions to make but an increasing number of people are looking forward to working hard and facing those challenges as an independent country.
It will also end much of the resentment that some people in England feel against Scotland and both of our countries will do much better after Scottish independence.

Wessex Man

See above and tell the truth!

HJ777

All assertion, no argument or facts.

Fergus Pickering

Optimistic is certainly right.

scotcanadien

Was there any need for this? “And we will still have to inhabit the same sodden, freezing country”. Talk about Scots running down their own country? I have to live in SE England in Cambridge for part of each year and Edinburgh for the rest and the weather in SEE is no better than that in Scotland. It is just as freezing and sodden there too. As a Scot Quebecois I just can’t understand the self hatred in some Scots.

Jambo25

Winter in Cambridge can be quite nasty. That wind that blows off the North Sea and the Fens can cut you in 2.

Jambo25

I’m simply relaying what I’ve found in Cambridge during the winter and it’s what my Cambridge friends find as well. Summers are great though.

scotcanadien

And so are Scottish summers.

Fergus Pickering

Good God, qwe are going on and on about the weather.

CraigStrachan

Well, if Quebec winters are what you’re used to, Edinburgh must seem positively balmy.

scotcanadien

Typical English ignorance. Quebec, even most of Canada, has excellent sunny dry summers, and after the snow beautiful winters where we can indulge our passion for winter sports. (Go and learn some geography.) In England you have … summers colder than our winters and always pissing rain, and you are even stupid enough to try and play cricket in what passes for a summer in your country

CraigStrachan

Well if “typical English ignorance” can reside in a Scots-born US citizen, now resident in California, formerly resident in Canada, so be it!

scotcanadien

If you think Canadian weather is bad you have never lived in Canada. And if you do live in Cal, WTF are you doing here interfering in local matters?

CraigStrachan

I didn’t say Canadian weather is bad. I said if you were used to winters in Quebec, you must find Edinburgh positively balmy. To which you replied that English summers were colder than Canadian winters, which makes me wonder if you have ever experienced either.

And as for “interfering in local matters”- why are you putting wee Scotland down? Scottish independence, and the break-up of the U.K, is much more than a local matter, surely? It’s a matter of global significance, don’t you think?

Fergus Pickering

Edinburgh is bloody cold. Or it was when I lived there. Perhaps you Scots have your own global warming.It really isn’t hating your own country to admit that the weather is bad.

asalord

Mr Massie is spot on with his analysis.
Personally,I would love to see Brown putting his oar in again.Last time he did he spent more time slagging off the tories than pro-independence supporters.The No camp would be in even more disarray.

Brown is yesterday’s man,fighting yesterday’s war.
Meanwhile,as Mr Massie implies,the English/unionist media continues to live in a world of its own.

ChuckieStane

“since the source then suggests Jeremy Hunt would be a useful weapon for Unionists to deploy we may safely conclude that this particular Tory is, to use the proper technical term, a fucking zoomer.”
This has got to be the best line written so far on the indyref.

Jambo25

Incidentally, I object to the term “f..cking zoomer”. Mental windae licker is far more appropriate.

Jambo25

Who is the source?.I’ll start the book off with Lord Forsyth of Weirdoland at 5-2 against.

Mynas

Young Michael’s nickname at school was Fossil. Just sayin’

Jambo25

I’ve come in contact with the good Lord Forsyth on a couple of occasions and he, actually does have a certain amount of charm if you can get past his magnificently monumental wrongheadedness.

HJ777

Whereas you have the wrongheadedness without even the charm as a redeeming feature.

HJ777

“As Mr Cochrane notes, the suggestion we shouldn’t vote for independence because if we did mobile phone bills might increase is the sort of juvenile imbecility that discredits the Unionist cause much more severely than you might think.”

Why is this different from the SNP assertions that independence would lead to domestic fuel bills that are 5% lower, retiring one year earlier, more spent on childcare (which is already under their control in Scotland), etc.?

scotcanadien

You did realise that Cocky the Clown was being scathing about people with stupid notions and that Massie was reinforcing that point. So are you a “juvenile imbecile” or just a common or garden one?

HJ777

You would be better advised to work out what sort of imbecile you are yourself before accusing other people of being one.

NorthBrit

A close to perfect article. Noting that if Alan Cochrane is the voice of reason in a debate, the interlocutor must be … I refer you to the proper technical term above.

DougDaniel

As someone who is in favour of independence, I’m regularly told by unionists that a No vote is in the bag, that only 25% of the population supports independence, and that opinion polls show the Yes vote has stagnated. This all seems rather at odds with some of the behaviour and outbursts we’ve heard from the No campaign recently, particularly since the release of the White Paper.

If an outsider looked at the two campaigns without any knowledge of the polling figures etc, they would almost certainly come to the conclusion that the Yes side must be on top, because the frantic, panicky behaviour of the No campaign does not exactly scream “we’re going to win this”.

terregles2

The better together are becoming slightly hysterical. I suppose it might be that those of us who live and work in Scotland are hearing an increasing amount of don’t knows saying that they have changed to YES.

HJ777

That’s because you only hear what you want to hear.

terregles2

Not really. I always enjoy a debate and I am genuinely interested as to why some people are voting no. We have had quite a few chats at coffee break in work and several people who were uncertain have made up their minds. They were unaware of quite a few things such as the McCrone Report and the fact that many Scottish exports are counted as English because they are exported from English ports. They were also unaware that the MOD had blocked oil exploration in the Firth of Clyde due to Trident.
Quite a few have changed from don’t know to YES voters on finding out more information. Some were persuaded after looking at the GERS figures. It is slightly disappointing though as there are fewer people now to debate with..

HJ777

They are humouring you and saying what you want to hear so that they can get away quickly.

You don’t seriously think that anyone would rely on your for their information, do you?

Wessex Man

Glad I don’t work with her!

HJ777

Me too.

We must count our blessings.

terregles2

Well I work with adults so you needn’t worry.

Jambo25

And you’re randomly insulting people again. Quelle surprise.

Wessex Man

no I leave that to halfwits like you, I only reserve my insults for halfwitted people that deserve them and revel in insulting all things English much like you.

Jambo25

Thanks for the confirmation.

terregles2

The fact that you can only insult and not take part in any adult debate says it all really. Tells us all we need to know.

HJ777

What would you know about adult debate?

Your contributions are so vacuous and full of unsubstantiated and clearly false statements that any sentient adult would be ashamed to post them and describe them as a contribution to a debate.

Once again, your ‘contribution’ contains no arguments, just a description of those who disagree with you as ‘slightly hysterical’.

That you’re not ashamed tells me all I need to know.

P.S. You’re still referring to yourself as “we”, I notice.

NorthBrit

Calm down dear.

terregles2

Proof of one false statement .

HJ777

There are so many fals statements and assertions in your posts that it is difficult to know where to start. This is from just one post:

“Scots never vote for a tory government but we get one anyway.Scots did not vote for the bedroom tax but we got it anyway.
Scots wanted our North sea oil to be used in a oil fund for the future. Thatcher squandered it to fund the dole.”

Scots have on several occasions voted for Tory governments.

There is no such thing as the “Bedroom Tax” and if you are referring to the withdrawal of the spare room subsidy, then how can you know as elections are not held on single issues (and public opinion polls show that Scots as well as English agree with the government’s welfare reforms)? Scotland certainly did vote mostly for Labour or the Tories at the last GE and this policy was also Labour policy (you didn’t know?).

Scots wanted North Sea fund to be used in an oil fund and for public spending to be cut as a result, did they? Provide evidence. And, considering North Sea oil has never provided more that 5% of UK government revenue and as we do not have any hypothecated government revenues, then this statement is clearly a blatant falsehood.

QED

terregles2

What year did Scotland return a majority of Scottish Conservative MP’s to Westminster.?
We elected one Conservative at the last election.
Don’t bother answering. I know you would not like to play a part in bringing about Scottish independence but certainly within my workplace you have contributed to the debate. We gather round at coffee break and have a laugh at your postings.
I’ll leave you to your cutting and pasting.

HJ777

1955

terregles2

I did not say anyone was relying on me for information. I said that the people I work beside read the McCrone report and the GERS figures. GERS you know the Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland figures..
Not sure how you would think that I was involved in the production of any of that information.
I have never met Professor Gavin McCrone the leading civil service economist for the UK Conservative government and the man who produced the McCrone report.
I have never met him but I would assume and hope that he would not be as rude and offensive as yourself.

HJ777

No you didn’t – you said (I have copied and pasted):

“They were unaware of quite a few things such as the McCrone Report” not that they had read it.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if you were to meet Gavin McCrone – he would certainly give your version short shrift.

I note that you continue to keep repeating your “You unionists are so nasty to us nice separatists” meme. It really is getting very tedious, but as your arguments are so weak, I suppose you are short of other options.

terregles2

Cannot believe that you copied and pasted …get a life…. If you look at the copy and paste you will see that I did not say I told them about McCrone. I said they were unaware of MCrone I did not say who told them.
Don’t let me take up any more of your time I don’t want to keep you back from trawling through Mr Salmond’s past speeches and copying and pasting.

HJ777

“We have had quite a few chats at coffee break in work and several people who were uncertain have made up their minds. They were unaware of quite a few things such as the McCrone Report… ”

So if you didn’t mention it, how do you know they were unaware of it? They would hardly have mentioned something they were unaware of.

I copied and pasted just to show that you are a liar. The problem with lying is that you have to have a very good memory – which you don’t possess.

terregles2

A debate sometimes involves several people. One of the group I was sitting with mentioned McCrone and explained what the report contained.
You call me a liar. I don’t want to be rude but I think you need help you don’t sound a well man.
Don’t bother answering because I will not be reading anything from anyone who calls me a liar.

Wessex Man

typical, your are caught out again and you try to shut up people by and use your usual “Don’t bother answering because I will not reading anything from anyone who calls me a liar.” got out of jail card again!