If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

The leaky level 10/on/off assembly valve thread of death

In my infinite quest to stop my gun from leaking, I may or may not have found other issues, but most definately found more questions. The spring pack in the back of the reg moves, is this normal? I may have used gun oil to lubricate this, in hindsight realizing it said "keep greased". One in the same, or a boo-boo? Also, the o-ring on the bottom of the bottom of the on/off has some wiggle room, even with using the proper o-ring. Again, normal? And the top brass part to my on/off looks nothing like any of the current ones sold for an Automag classic. Again, probably an old part, but I didn't know if it was outdated, like in the case of the regulator piston. I swear, I am almost at the part where NOTHING is the same as when I bought it, inside and out. Are leaks a part of owning a mag? Am I being too anal? Thinking I had things figured out, and then this: Kind of frustrating.

In my infinite quest to stop my gun from leaking, I may or may not have found other issues, but most definately found more questions. The spring pack in the back of the reg moves, is this normal? I may have used gun oil to lubricate this, in hindsight realizing it said "keep greased". One in the same, or a boo-boo? Also, the o-ring on the bottom of the bottom of the on/off has some wiggle room, even with using the proper o-ring. Again, normal? And the top brass part to my on/off looks nothing like any of the current ones sold for an Automag classic. Again, probably an old part, but I didn't know if it was outdated, like in the case of the regulator piston. I swear, I am almost at the part where NOTHING is the same as when I bought it, inside and out. Are leaks a part of owning a mag? Am I being too anal? Thinking I had things figured out, and then this: Kind of frustrating.

I don't have any leaks on my mags. So no it's not part of owning mag. You're not telling where it's leaking. Have you managed to isolate the leak to specific part of the valve?

Can you post a picture of your on/off with the top part that doesn't look like the ones currently sold?

On/off pin should be pretty snug in the top o-ring. What kind of wiggle are you talking about? What do you do when you notice it?

Apologies, I got so far ahead of myself posting this before I went to do something else, or that thing called proof-reading, that I didn't even say where it was leaking from! I was pretty generous with oiling, but it was slightly leaking when gassed up, trigger at rest, from the barrel. Touching the bolt changed the tone. Applying slight pressure to, but not firing, the trigger made it stop. That, and the leak I have when I fire the gun/hold in the trigger, which lasts about 1-2 seconds before going away. I changed every o-ring out. >.> I still have all my old ones, but yeah, every o-ring in the gun is new ATM.

I believe I over-oiled the gun, and over-oiled being a bit of an understatement. I can move up a carrier, and see how she behaves. New rail arrived, what an excuse to completely tear the gun apart. Hehe... I'll fiddle around with it, since its not leaking enough to drain my tank in a short while, merely an audible leak with my ear near the body.

The spring pack in the back of the reg moves, is this normal? I may have used gun oil to lubricate this, in hindsight realizing it said "keep greased". One in the same, or a boo-boo?

What kind of gun oil? Gun oil can eat the orings. Use only synthetic light oil made for pneumatic use. The oil/grease on the spring pack is only to keep it from getting moist and rusting. Grease sticks to the spring better than oil that gets blown off.

Originally Posted by Stealthpanda

Also, the o-ring on the bottom of the bottom of the on/off has some wiggle room, even with using the proper o-ring. Again, normal?

Are you sure you are using the large on-off oring and not the powertube tip oring by mistake? There will be some movement on the oring, but it should be snug on the on-off assembly.

Originally Posted by Stealthpanda

And the top brass part to my on/off looks nothing like any of the current ones sold for an Automag classic. Again, probably an old part, but I didn't know if it was outdated, like in the case of the regulator piston.

The older on-off tops were flat on top with an X cut on the bottom to pass air. The newer on-off tops are symmetrical so there is no top or bottom. They pass air out through holes from the center into an air passage that goes around the outside of the on-off top.

If the mag leaks out the front but stops when you start to pull the trigger, it means the sealing edge of the carrier oring is very close to the level 10 bolt stem vent hole. If there are shims installed in the powertube, remove them. If there are no shims, it means your sear is worn out or you are missing your rail bushing.

Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

I have thoroughly frustrated myself today, attempting to remove excess oil, make sure things are working as intended. I have to fiddle with the carrier/o ring again, as something isn't right. I am back to where I started before. Size 1 carrier is a smidge too tight, and 1.5 leaks immediately when I gas it up. No shims installed. Brand new sear. Rail bushing in place. New higher pressure regulator piston installed.

I default back to: Whenever I feel like I have this figured out, I completely don't. I have studied air pathways. Got the gun to chrono about 250, when I read I needed a new regulator piston assembly. Got it, installed it, turned up the velocity, gun cycles, but leaks. Something cool I noticed, was that with the regulator piston assembly I purchased, AGD sent me 2 of a few different o rings. 2 Regulator piston, 2 power tube, 2 teflon on/off. Kudos to them, always appreciate freebies. I have purchased the newer style top on/off part, spring pack, and a misc screw I was missing for mag #2. I don't mind replacing things if they seem out of wack/broken, but its unfortunate to learn that some of these things (outside of the sear and reg piston assembly) were probably unneeded.

It's weird. That leak that developed when I gas the gun up, from rest, goes away if you pull the trigger just slightly. Or changed tone if you press the tip of the bolt. I wasn't bothered by the leak that happens if you hold the trigger, as it went away in about a second or two. On page 4 of the official level 10 problem thread.. I will get this eventually. I appreciate the continued responses, as it seems I am just asking all the same questions that have been asked for the past 10 years. I apologize, but greatly appreciate the input. If I cannot figure this out, the classic valve, how will I ever figure out the X valve? ULT? Etc.
Thank you all, again,
Jason

Pictures of my on/off (the o-ring in question):
Notice how there is at least a 1mm gap between where the o-ring sits, and the entire groove it sits in.

IDK, I feel like once I started replacing the o rings on my on/off, I had more leaks at rest. IIRC, the two are related. Only the brass top part looks weird, everything else looks normal as far as 20 year old valves are concerned.

Just looks lime an old style on off to me. As for your leak. What you describe tells me its in your power tube stuff. Not the on off. And since I have no experience with a level 10. That's where my help ends. Lol.

I had my original carrier o ring play the "WTB size 1.25 carrier" sooo I just grabbed a new one, and threw that one back in the bag o' o-rings. Well, in my haste to find a NEW o-ring, I am assuming I grabbed the one I used from before, bringing back all the old leaks I had.

Gold cup gun oil. I put 1 drop in each of the holes on the bottom of the valve marked --Oil--.

Gold cup oil is fine. The holes don't do anything. To get oil into the valve, you need to either wet the orings directly as you install them, or you need to put a couple of drops of oil at the valve inlet or ASA. Then you need to cycle the valve to blow the oil through it.

It is a powertube oring. The one I mentioned that it shouldn't be is the powertube tip oring. They are two different orings, the tip oring being slightly larger than the powertube oring.

Originally Posted by Stealthpanda

Is there a difference in flow in the old one vs "new" style?

No. The old one works fine. Its just easier to use the newer one because you can't accidentally put it in upside down.

Originally Posted by Stealthpanda

I have thoroughly frustrated myself today, attempting to remove excess oil, make sure things are working as intended. I have to fiddle with the carrier/o ring again, as something isn't right. I am back to where I started before. Size 1 carrier is a smidge too tight, and 1.5 leaks immediately when I gas it up. No shims installed. Brand new sear. Rail bushing in place. New higher pressure regulator piston installed.

It's weird. That leak that developed when I gas the gun up, from rest, goes away if you pull the trigger just slightly. Or changed tone if you press the tip of the bolt.

When you pull the trigger slightly, the tip of the sear pushes the bolt back slightly as it rotates down. This pushes the bolt stem vent hole farther back in the powertube carrier past the sealing edge of the oring. This indicates that the bolt is sitting too far forward. Since you have a new sear and have your rail bushing installed, I don't know what the issue is. One thing that you might try is to take out your carrier and remove theoring. Get some 600 grit sand paper. Put the sandpaper on a flat surface facing up. Rub the front of the carrier on the sandpaper against the flat surface and take a couple of thousandths of metal off. Reinstall it. This should allow the carrier to sit farther forward and seal the bolt stem vent hole while at rest. If you don't want to do that to your carrier, you can do the same thing to your powertube tip instead only sand the back or it.

If you have been only putting oil in the hole in the bottom, that could very well be your issue as well. I would suggest trying putting several drops of oil into the asa, air up and fire off a dozen or so times as AThomas suggested. In order to overoil it, you have to put a LOT of oil in it.

Yeah, I agree with OPBN. I don't think you can really overdo it with oil. If you think you put in more than necessary, then just take the barrel off and dry-fire a few dozen times (until you stop seeing a cloud of oily mist). You may want to take off the valve at that point and wipe the exterior of everything down to remove the residue, but the valve internals should stay well lubed.

Gold cup oil is fine. The holes don't do anything. To get oil into the valve, you need to either wet the orings directly as you install them, or you need to put a couple of drops of oil at the valve inlet or ASA. Then you need to cycle the valve to blow the oil through it.

When I thought I fixed it the first time, about 2 weeks ago, I put between 4-6 drops in my asa, and dry fired about 30-40 times. When it started to leak again, I replaced the regulator piston, sear, all on/off orings replaced as well. Slight leak down the barrel at rest, so I switched carrier o rings. Grabbed the one that was giving me slight issues from before, I can switch back, or just start the install process again. My HPA tank is empty, so I can't test anything at the moment - so naturally i'm irritated.

It is a powertube oring. The one I mentioned that it shouldn't be is the powertube tip oring. They are two different orings, the tip oring being slightly larger than the powertube oring.

Yeah, I checked. I was hoping I wasn't crazy.

No. The old one works fine. Its just easier to use the newer one because you can't accidentally put it in upside down.

Still purchased the newer one, >_> because why not have more spare mag parts laying around lol.

When you pull the trigger slightly, the tip of the sear pushes the bolt back slightly as it rotates down. This pushes the bolt stem vent hole farther back in the powertube carrier past the sealing edge of the oring. This indicates that the bolt is sitting too far forward. Since you have a new sear and have your rail bushing installed, I don't know what the issue is. One thing that you might try is to take out your carrier and remove theoring. Get some 600 grit sand paper. Put the sandpaper on a flat surface facing up. Rub the front of the carrier on the sandpaper against the flat surface and take a couple of thousandths of metal off. Reinstall it. This should allow the carrier to sit farther forward and seal the bolt stem vent hole while at rest. If you don't want to do that to your carrier, you can do the same thing to your powertube tip instead only sand the back or it.

I honestly don't want to sand anything down, whether it be the pt tip, or the carrier I should be using. This just doesn't sound like normal operating procedures, and honestly scares me. I had it where I wanted it, but over time the gun developed a leak. Maybe after a full tank or dry firing? 72ci/3000psi. I wasn't bothered by the leak when I hold the trigger in, because that in itself is not normal operation. The amount of air loss in a fraction of a fraction of a second between shots ISN'T going to affect the overall efficiency of the mag. Maybe lose 5-10 shots from my tank? But what will is leaking at rest. I did NOT have this issue roughly a week ago. Something broke in, and as mentioned above by a post, the older the o ring the better. Fresh o rings chaffing my bum? Maybe so. Removing the carrier with my tool maybe nicked the o ring?

If you have one, install a level 7 bolt and PT tip. If the leak down the barrel goes away (and I suspect it will) then your first leak is being caused by the carrier o-ring having worn in, go down 1/2 a carrier size. I don't know about the "older is better" school of o-ring thought, that has not been my experience.

I suspect your second leak is on/off related. That bottom o-ring looks like it's just floating there. Thinking you need a thicker one there.

Will the inside of the level 7 bolt slide into the pt with the carrier in place? It definately looks larger than the carrier tbh. Oh, and I don't have a spacer kit, if thats the case. I have the spring instead. Lucky me.

The bottom o ring does look weird, but a few people have mentioned it is the right o ring. Shrug.

Low air pressure can cause leaking out the front. The chamber needs a full charge of air to push the carrier and oring forward on the bolt stem. If the carrier and oring combination worked before but not now, then something has changed. Usually a broken in carrier oring will have a consistent leak, not one that moves with the sealing edge. It could very well be that your carrier oring got nicked. Have you tried another oring and retuned so that you are using the correct carrier for the new oring?

The slight leak for a couple of seconds when you hold the trigger in won't affect your efficiency at all. The time and amount of pressure leaked during normal firing is almost nothing.

Low air pressure can cause leaking out the front. The chamber needs a full charge of air to push the carrier and oring forward on the bolt stem. If the carrier and oring combination worked before but not now, then something has changed. Usually a broken in carrier oring will have a consistent leak, not one that moves with the sealing edge. It could very well be that your carrier oring got nicked. Have you tried another oring and retuned so that you are using the correct carrier for the new oring?That really sounds like what happened, heck, it happened last time I ran dry troubleshooting issues. I switched o-rings when the consistant leak happened, and I am really under the impression I grabbed the "carrier 1 won't fit, and neither will 1.5" o ring. Its just how the o ring behaved. Again, I have never attempted to add shims, or remove shims for that matter, from my classic valve w/ level 10. No shims for life, elsewise I will have more leaks, thus confusing me more

The slight leak for a couple of seconds when you hold the trigger in won't affect your efficiency at all. The time and amount of pressure leaked during normal firing is almost nothing. This. I am lead to believe that it is NOT normal, however, like you mentioned: This has near NO effect on air efficiency at all.

Wait a minute... when the gun gasses up, the carrier moves from sitting against the backing washer inside of the powertube, to against the powertube tip? This is new to me. Sounds about right though, as it clearly looks like there is more space than needed, or its needed by design.

has the power tube welding been cut to try and unscrew the power tube from the valve? it looks like it has or at least maybe someone tried to cut it? maybe that o-ring was damaged and thats where this mystery leak is coming from?

Oh hell, uhh.... I do notice what your talking about. It doesn't appear to come apart? But it does look weird. :O IDK, I didn't have that leak with the level 7 bolt, so going back to that will show me if its on/off related, or level 10 related. I'm willing to bet its the later, but I'm definately up for seeing if my paranoia about all those changed o rings on the on/off are making it act funky or not.

Meh, I don't get it. I get the tank filled today and the gun doesn't do ANY of the things that the gun was doing last week. I am under the impression anything under a certain input PSI and the gun does 14 million different things:
1) Leaking down the barrel. If I interpreted what Athomas said correctly: the carrier isn't pushing against back of the power tube with anything BUT a full dump chamber.
2) I couldn't fire more than a few bps, or it wouldn't cycle fully. Hello, not enough air. Hurrrr -1 for me for the day.
3) The leak at rest fully goes away under full dump chamber pressure. I did notice after a few strings/dry fires, that the leak at rest comes back. I slightly depress the trigger, and it goes away.
4) I was under the impression my carrier/o ring combo was too tight, but the lack of pressure explained a lot more.

The end result is: Anything under 800 psi (?) and the gun will make you think it has more problems than it really does. Don't know why this had to happen twice, cause me to freak out, get my tank filled, and have very little issues since then. >_<
Thanks,
Jason

Meh, I don't get it. I get the tank filled today and the gun doesn't do ANY of the things that the gun was doing last week. I am under the impression anything under a certain input PSI and the gun does 14 million different things:
1) Leaking down the barrel. If I interpreted what Athomas said correctly: the carrier isn't pushing against back of the power tube with anything BUT a full dump chamber.

It will push against the back of the powertube with less pressure, but the friction effect of the oring on the bolt stem has a greater effect at lower pressures so the carrier may not move forward far enough to create a sealing edge in front of the vent hole. This causes a leak condition while at rest.

Originally Posted by Stealthpanda

2) I couldn't fire more than a few bps, or it wouldn't cycle fully. Hello, not enough air. Hurrrr -1 for me for the day.

Low input pressure slows the recharge rate significantly. The gun will not fire until the chamber pressure reaches a value high enough to exert a force greater than the bolt spring force.

Originally Posted by Stealthpanda

3) The leak at rest fully goes away under full dump chamber pressure. I did notice after a few strings/dry fires, that the leak at rest comes back. I slightly depress the trigger, and it goes away.

This almost always indicates that the bolt is too far forward, meaning something is worn. A full dump chamber helps, but there is often something else that needs to be checked as well. If you slightly pull the trigger and the leak goes away you have manually pushed the bolt stem farther into the carrier. If you release the trigger, the carrier should keep sealing if its a low pressure issue. If its a dimensional issue, meaning something is worn, then the leak will return as soon as you release the trigger.

Originally Posted by Stealthpanda

4) I was under the impression my carrier/o ring combo was too tight, but the lack of pressure explained a lot more.

The end result is: Anything under 800 psi (?) and the gun will make you think it has more problems than it really does. Don't know why this had to happen twice, cause me to freak out, get my tank filled, and have very little issues since then. >_<
Thanks,
Jason

The carrier being too tight usually shows up as a bolt stick issue while shooting and you have to manually reset the bolt. If it leaks a bit at rest, if you pull the trigger slightly, the tighter carrier and oring will move with the bolt stem and the leak often won't stop.

As mentioned, always troubleshoot using a full tank, or at least one that has significant air in it. Dry firing also uses much more air than firing balls, as does connecting and disconnecting the bottle, so you often need more air.

It will push against the back of the powertube with less pressure, but the friction effect of the oring on the bolt stem has a greater effect at lower pressures so the carrier may not move forward far enough to create a sealing edge in front of the vent hole. This causes a leak condition while at rest.

Low input pressure slows the recharge rate significantly. The gun will not fire until the chamber pressure reaches a value high enough to exert a force greater than the bolt spring force.

This almost always indicates that the bolt is too far forward, meaning something is worn. A full dump chamber helps, but there is often something else that needs to be checked as well. If you slightly pull the trigger and the leak goes away you have manually pushed the bolt stem farther into the carrier. If you release the trigger, the carrier should keep sealing if its a low pressure issue. If its a dimensional issue, meaning something is worn, then the leak will return as soon as you release the trigger.

The carrier being too tight usually shows up as a bolt stick issue while shooting and you have to manually reset the bolt. If it leaks a bit at rest, if you pull the trigger slightly, the tighter carrier and oring will move with the bolt stem and the leak often won't stop.

As mentioned, always troubleshoot using a full tank, or at least one that has significant air in it. Dry firing also uses much more air than firing balls, as does connecting and disconnecting the bottle, so you often need more air.

What really confuses me is the bold.
The level 7 bumper? Its the one I had on it from the original purchase, not the new one I got with the parts kit. Nothing from the level 10 kit (which was purchased new) should be worn down at all with MAYBE 800-1000 dry fires through the entire level 10 bolt system.
Could it be the stock gold spring? It sticks out about 1/2" past the bolt tip when out of the gun. New sear, sear pin, even thumb screw. Could the thumb screw be too loose? Too tight?
Just at a loss, cause I have literally replaced everything on this gun, except the on/off itself/valve. So weird. Should I note how far the bolt sticks out when gassed up and how it moves/if at all when I depress the trigger? My gun also has the intelliframe, and a ule body. could something be askew inside of the ule body that is making it sit too far forward?
Thanks,
Jason

EDIT: Meh, now it did it once, and didn't do it between a mix of 5-10 shots, a shot and hold, a shot, 2 seconds, shot etc etc. This time, however, I just hand tightened the thumbs crew. With no air in the gun, there is less than 1mm of wiggle room if I push the valve against the body. It definately sounds like an over-tightened thumbscrew. This sound normal?

What really confuses me is the bold.
The level 7 bumper? Its the one I had on it from the original purchase, not the new one I got with the parts kit. Nothing from the level 10 kit (which was purchased new) should be worn down at all with MAYBE 800-1000 dry fires through the entire level 10 bolt system.
Could it be the stock gold spring? It sticks out about 1/2" past the bolt tip when out of the gun. New sear, sear pin, even thumb screw. Could the thumb screw be too loose? Too tight?
Just at a loss, cause I have literally replaced everything on this gun, except the on/off itself/valve. So weird. Should I note how far the bolt sticks out when gassed up and how it moves/if at all when I depress the trigger? My gun also has the intelliframe, and a ule body. could something be askew inside of the ule body that is making it sit too far forward?
Thanks,
Jason

EDIT: Meh, now it did it once, and didn't do it between a mix of 5-10 shots, a shot and hold, a shot, 2 seconds, shot etc etc. This time, however, I just hand tightened the thumbs crew. With no air in the gun, there is less than 1mm of wiggle room if I push the valve against the body. It definately sounds like an over-tightened thumbscrew. This sound normal?

do you have a your rail bushing in place? can you get some pics of what you are saying the issue is?

Yes, I have my rail bushing in place. I don't actually have any issue, at the moment, other than a leak caused from the bolt tip being too close to the o ring edge sealing point (I believe) causing a leak for about 1-2 seconds if I hold my trigger in. Most of my other issues, unless something happens on the field, are being caused by automag nubbi-ness. Tank not being filled - where as on most guns, it'll cause the burping effect (spyders/tippmans, etc) but on an automag, you get 1300 different leaks. Not really, but still.

Overall, I had a leak at rest, which went away when I would pull the trigger just slightly. The carrier, or bolt, is (or was) sitting too far forward, for whatever reason, causing a slight leak at rest. Again, new sear, sear pin, brand new level 10 bolt, spring, carriers, o ring(s), rail bushing in the gun, thumbscrew just hand tightened. <-- That appears to have fixed it, as the screw being too tight can cause the bolt to sit awkward. At this point, its rinse/repeat information, and I have got to be getting on Athomas' nerves at this point I digress.