So this is a bit of a question that has been bothering and worrying me for quite a while, and I have personally asked some of the wise members on here for advice--and it is well-appreciated--but I think that I am now willing to ask about it out in the open and see what my best friends here can tell me. What I love about this place is that just as you are all able to easily encourage and show kindness to me during difficult times, you are also just as quick to be blunt and correct me when I say something stupid or go through spiritual growing pains.

Going on now, I guess what really has been worrying me is about going into the world after High-School--which is just around the corner. My biggest fear is preserving my virginity until marriage. Most people say you shouldn't get married till after college (even though my parents didn't and didn't go to college either for that matter), except, the thing is, those people aren't trying to preserve their virginity. College is going to add another like 4-8 years to the amount of time I have to be abstinent. I think yeshua was right the entire time about that young marriage thing.

Anyhow, so I'm asking all you--as Orthodox Christians who know what's expected of us--when is the best time to get married, taking all of this into consideration?--especially the possibility that I screw up and fornicate. Should I try my very hardest to stay chaste and not get married till after college or do something else? To add specifics to my situation, while in college I am either going to be living with my parents--who actually wouldn't mind if I had a wife living with us provided she helped out around the place--or in an apartment with considerably lower-rent since my family is friends with the owner.

Discuss with her what her plans in life are. She may want to finish college first, she may just want to get married ASAP. You can't make this decision without first finding a mate, and discussing with her what she wants to do.

An old friend of mine from high school who married at 28 said it tonight, when we were discussing (in the context of avoiding or going to class reunions) the many people we know from our teenage years who got married then or in their early 20s who are divorced now: "Ah, see...now I can look back at all the times I thought I knew everything at that age and be thankful that I waited, because I didn't know hardly anything after all. And then I'll realize that again in another 10 years, I hope."

I should think this is good advice for any major life decision, including marriage. Approach with humility, and don't rush in to anything.

Don't even consider marriage before you can independently support a family. That means finishing your education, settling into a job, and affording your own place. A new couple must not depend on their parents for their livelihood (unless their parents are their employers, and even that can be iffy).

I was not a virgin when I married (at 35), but I still managed to remain so until I was 29. It's not impossible.

Logged

'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

The question has no valid answer, or rather has close to 7 Billion answers. If you and your partner are ready, you can marry at 16. If you are not, it does not matter if you wait till 50. I have seen marriages work and fail at both extremes. In my case, I was 20 and my wife 24. I first dated her at the end of May, gave her a ring on the 4th of July, and married her on the 15th of August in the same year. No, there was no baby on the way. That was in 1981, and we are still married. And yes, we even lived the first four months with my parents as we both found ourselves unemployed. Do I recommend this for everyone? NO. But it can work, if both parties want it to work.

Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

For a woman, this is a bad idea. Once you hit 34, they start talking AMA (advanced maternal age). Once you hit 35, they start treating you like you are about to explode. Once you hit 40, they start treating you like you are sterile. The sad reality is that as a woman you are treated completely differently when you are pregnant in your 30's versus your 20's. I am due with this baby 1 month before my 35th birthday. If I was due after that birthday I would be labels "elderly grand multi-para." Yes, at 35 in terms of pregnancy I am labeled elderly at 35. Once you hit 35 they want to do every single genetic screening on the planet. For a man there is no distinction between a pregnancy in your teens versus your 70's. For a woman 10 years makes all the difference in the world.

Get married when you are both ready. You don't have to own a house. You don't have to have zero debt. You just have to have the commitment and drive together to survive and support yourselves. When I married at 18 we lived off less than $800 a month. We had a food budget of $150 a month. We didn't have much, but we were very happy. Neither of us attended college. Neither of us had a "career." You are never completely ready to get married, you are never completely ready to have a baby. You just have to be willing to really work at it to do it right.

This idea that your life has to be set and going before you get married is somewhat flawed. Because you have to alter that life to meld it with your spouse. To quote an Ikea commercial "You don't have to be rich, just smart." Be smart and really examine your relationship before you get married. Have long late night talks about everything imaginable. Don't wait until you are married to unload all your baggage. Don't wait to talk about certain issues until you are married because you don't want to scare the other person away. After you are married you should have talked about everything so deeply that the only surprises are the little daily habits that you each have. Marriage is awesome. I am very, very happy I wed at 18 years of age. I couldn't have made a better decision. Now when it comes to having kids? I suggest waiting 3-5 years into marriage. But that is based upon marrying at 18. If you are older, that biological clock may not give you that much time.

So taking into consideration everything that everyone has said here, there is no "best time" but when we are ultimately ready--and that, I should REALLY make sure I'm ready and unload all of my baggage first before we are married so that there aren't as many bad surprises? Also, Quint, why did you say that I shouldn't have my wife live with my family? Punch--who's a pretty cool guy btw--did for 4 months and it worked out.

Also asking, why do women always want children? If I could have it my way, I would want absolutely no children at all--but seeing that women are hell-bent on having kids, I've already accepted that I'll probably have to have at least 1 or 2.

No, not all women are hell-bent on having kids. When we married, we agreed to never have kids actually. We changed out minds on the issue together. So I would not suggest compromising on having kids. If you never want to have kids, make sure your spouse is on board. But bear in mind that one of you may change your mind, then you have to revisit the issue.

It is a bad idea to have your wife move in with your mother. Unless your mother is very unusual, and extremely mature/hands off, it is a recipe for marital disaster. (or if you have an awesome dad that can keep your mom in check) You will end up being placed in a position of go-between. As a mom, I can say without hesitation that a mom always will see her child as "her baby." It is very difficult to not interfere. You want to prevent your children from making the same mistakes you did. The problem is that when you are first married, you will make mistakes. You likely will have an argument or two. And if you go and discuss it with mommy, your wife will be pissed. You are supposed to leave your father and mother. In some select situations it can be done. But it is by no means a good idea. It takes a very unusual parental bond to withstand having a newlywed couple living with the parents. I felt weird having sex while staying over for a visit at my in-laws after we were married. I don't think we could have "enjoyed" the romp that early marriage is living with our parents. And not to be crass, but you want to feel free to be as loud as you like. Having mommy in the next room sort of hampers that.

virginity is way over-rated amidst groups within church; well it's all nice to sing troparia and kontakia and what not to the Ever Virgin but that's about it. Plus,with men there hasn't even been a very strong social expectation that they should stay "virgins" ; fortunately much on the pressure put on girls is also obsolete now.

Logged

"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

I don't think virginity is necessarily essential before marriage. So if one has lapsed, they should repent and not do it again. Ideally everyone should wait until marriage to have sex. But you aren't doomed if you have.

I do believe strongly that waiting until you are married to have sex with a person is essential. There is a distinction there. Having sex before marriage muddies the waters. It is easy to gloss over issues in the hormonal haze. And if you have already had sex with a person, that relationship should be able to survive if you stop having sex outside of marriage. We waited 3 loooonnnnggggg years to have sex after we were married. I do not think our marriage would have survived the first few years, let alone 2 deployments if we hadn't based our relationship strongly outside of sex before marrying. By the time we wed, the cake was made so to speak. The addition of sex was just the perfect icing on that cake.

Also asking, why do women always want children? If I could have it my way, I would want absolutely no children at all--but seeing that women are hell-bent on having kids, I've already accepted that I'll probably have to have at least 1 or 2.

For most normal women, it is biological. One of the first commands of God was for us to be fruitful and multiply, and he made that urge strong in all life forms. It is natural for woman to want to have a baby, just as it is natural for men to want to help as many of them get their wish as we can. However, what is natural is not always "moral", as is the case with the latter.

Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

When to marry? When the right man/woman comes into your life. The worst reasons (listen up, JamesR!) to marry are to be able to have sex "legitimately", or because family or society expects you to marry.

And maintaining one's virginity until marriage is not that hard. When I married, both of us were virgins at 35 and 38, and we were by no means unique in the world.

When to marry? When the right man/woman comes into your life. The worst reasons (listen up, JamesR!) to marry are to be able to have sex "legitimately", or because family or society expects you to marry.

And maintaining one's virginity until marriage is not that hard. When I married, both of us were virgins at 35 and 38, and we were by no means unique in the world.

Yes, I think society works overtime to tell people that maintaing virginity is odd. I expected the movie "The 40 year Old Virgin" to blast the concept more. But I was pleasantly surprised. There were certainly comedic moments. But I don't think it blasted the concept near as much as it could have.

well it's all nice to sing troparia and kontakia and what not to the Ever Virgin but that's about it.

It was generally virgin (or at least chaste) monks and nuns who wrote our troparia and kontakia. Church Fathers, both Eastern (St. John Chrysostom) and Western (St. Jerome) praised virginity above marriage, but considered a conceited virgin to be far worse than a repentant sinner. Singing troparia which praise virginity and deeming it obsolete at the same time might make us either hypocrites or cognitive dissonants.

well it's all nice to sing troparia and kontakia and what not to the Ever Virgin but that's about it.

It was generally virgin (or at least chaste) monks and nuns who wrote our troparia and kontakia. Church Fathers, both Eastern (St. John Chrysostom) and Western (St. Jerome) praised virginity above marriage, but considered a conceited virgin to be far worse than a repentant sinner. Singing troparia which praise virginity and deeming it obsolete at the same time might make us either hypocrites or cognitive dissonants.

well it's all nice to sing troparia and kontakia and what not to the Ever Virgin but that's about it.

It was generally virgin (or at least chaste) monks and nuns who wrote our troparia and kontakia. Church Fathers, both Eastern (St. John Chrysostom) and Western (St. Jerome) praised virginity above marriage, but considered a conceited virgin to be far worse than a repentant sinner. Singing troparia which praise virginity and deeming it obsolete at the same time might make us either hypocrites or cognitive dissonants.

It's more important to be able to maintain within one life a certain level of contradictions; it works.

Logged

"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

well it's all nice to sing troparia and kontakia and what not to the Ever Virgin but that's about it.

It was generally virgin (or at least chaste) monks and nuns who wrote our troparia and kontakia. Church Fathers, both Eastern (St. John Chrysostom) and Western (St. Jerome) praised virginity above marriage, but considered a conceited virgin to be far worse than a repentant sinner. Singing troparia which praise virginity and deeming it obsolete at the same time might make us either hypocrites or cognitive dissonants.

It's more important to be able to maintain within one life a certain level of contradictions; it works.

Good luck with that.

Some of us value truth, and thus require consistency in our beliefs, but you do it any way you want.

well it's all nice to sing troparia and kontakia and what not to the Ever Virgin but that's about it.

It was generally virgin (or at least chaste) monks and nuns who wrote our troparia and kontakia. Church Fathers, both Eastern (St. John Chrysostom) and Western (St. Jerome) praised virginity above marriage, but considered a conceited virgin to be far worse than a repentant sinner. Singing troparia which praise virginity and deeming it obsolete at the same time might make us either hypocrites or cognitive dissonants.

You must not have met Augustin.

Augustin, Romaios. Romaios, Augustin.

we know each other personally

Logged

"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

well it's all nice to sing troparia and kontakia and what not to the Ever Virgin but that's about it.

It was generally virgin (or at least chaste) monks and nuns who wrote our troparia and kontakia. Church Fathers, both Eastern (St. John Chrysostom) and Western (St. Jerome) praised virginity above marriage, but considered a conceited virgin to be far worse than a repentant sinner. Singing troparia which praise virginity and deeming it obsolete at the same time might make us either hypocrites or cognitive dissonants.

It's more important to be able to maintain within one life a certain level of contradictions; it works.

Good luck with that.

Some of us value truth, and thus require consistency in our beliefs, but you do it any way you want.

right know, it's my impression, "truth" suits you like a glove. just wait a bit.

Logged

"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

well it's all nice to sing troparia and kontakia and what not to the Ever Virgin but that's about it.

It was generally virgin (or at least chaste) monks and nuns who wrote our troparia and kontakia. Church Fathers, both Eastern (St. John Chrysostom) and Western (St. Jerome) praised virginity above marriage, but considered a conceited virgin to be far worse than a repentant sinner. Singing troparia which praise virginity and deeming it obsolete at the same time might make us either hypocrites or cognitive dissonants.

It's more important to be able to maintain within one life a certain level of contradictions; it works.

It's either paradox or dialectics, as Milbanks and Zizek put it. If you choose dialectics, you can reconcile or even combine singing troparia with any pleasurable activity without any remorse whatsoever. Ultimately, deep down everyone needs to decide for himself to whom he owes allegiance: Christ or Hegel, the Church or the Zeitgeist.

I believe a sinner can and actually should chant troparia and read prayers, but it's better for him and the audience that he does it with authentic compunction, κατανυκτικῶς. Otherwise, one should just go to the theatre or the opera instead of attending a church masquerade.

well it's all nice to sing troparia and kontakia and what not to the Ever Virgin but that's about it.

It was generally virgin (or at least chaste) monks and nuns who wrote our troparia and kontakia. Church Fathers, both Eastern (St. John Chrysostom) and Western (St. Jerome) praised virginity above marriage, but considered a conceited virgin to be far worse than a repentant sinner. Singing troparia which praise virginity and deeming it obsolete at the same time might make us either hypocrites or cognitive dissonants.

You must not have met Augustin.

Augustin, Romaios. Romaios, Augustin.

we know each other personally

No kidding? Well, what do you know?

You are crazy if you insinuate it's the same person no kidding.

Logged

"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

It's more important to be able to maintain within one life a certain level of contradictions; it works.

It's either paradox or dialectics, as Milbanks and Zizek put it. If you choose dialectics, you can reconcile or even combine singing troparia with any pleasurable activity without any remorse whatsoever. Ultimately, deep down everyone needs to decide for himself to whom he owes allegiance: Christ or Hegel, the Church or the Zeitgeist.

I believe a sinner can and actually should chant troparia and read prayers, but it's better for him and the audition that he does it with authentic compunction, κατανυκτικῶς. Otherwise, one should just go to the theatre or the opera instead of attending a church masquerade.

Once he moves up from catechumen to the newly illumined estate, and thus the cursus honorum on this forum will be widely open to him, enablig him to accede to moderatorial dignities, he will be able to ascertain the truth of your word, to subtly allude to the present feast's troparion.

« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 07:26:34 PM by augustin717 »

Logged

"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

That's probably a privilege that St. Peter transmitted to the Church of Rome - but there's hope for the Orthodox too: "Without leaving Rome, thou didst come to us" singeth the troparion of January the 16th.

When to marry? When the right man/woman comes into your life. The worst reasons (listen up, JamesR!) to marry are to be able to have sex "legitimately", or because family or society expects you to marry.

And maintaining one's virginity until marriage is not that hard. When I married, both of us were virgins at 35 and 38, and we were by no means unique in the world.

Amen!

James, there is no "one size fits all" answer for when to get married. First you have to prepare yourself spiritually for marriage and find the right woman, someone who will complement you. It will help you to know yourself--who are you, what do you have to offer, what are your strengths and weaknesses, etc.

It's never a good idea to rush into anything, but for one couple six months might be enough, for another six years is too little. It all depends.

Chastity is one of the greatest virtues. It isn't just physical virginity--even married couples with a dozen children exercise chastity. It is kin to the original purity of soul. Without it, we become warped and our senses are skewed. If you value purity and find a woman who does also, you will be better able to help your children preserve their purity so that they will be less likely to be ensnared by passions.

Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

That's probably a privilege that St. Peter transmitted to the Church of Rome - but there's hope for the Orthodox too: "Without leaving Rome, thou didst come to us" singeth the troparion of January the 16th.

Did you guys meet at St. Vlad's?

Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

well it's all nice to sing troparia and kontakia and what not to the Ever Virgin but that's about it.

It was generally virgin (or at least chaste) monks and nuns who wrote our troparia and kontakia. Church Fathers, both Eastern (St. John Chrysostom) and Western (St. Jerome) praised virginity above marriage, but considered a conceited virgin to be far worse than a repentant sinner. Singing troparia which praise virginity and deeming it obsolete at the same time might make us either hypocrites or cognitive dissonants.

Here is what I believe it takes to marry young. (My wife and I are nearing 20 years of marriage, 5 children - and were married when I was BARELY 19, and she middish 17.)

1. You have to love one another very deeply.

2. You have to be not of this world (Romans 12:2 "Do not conform to the patterns of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind") This means: Don't act like a typical teen, listening to trendy music (feeds the negative message), going to parties, worrying about style, etc. This means: Be mature, dedicated, and putting your spouse first in all matters. This also meant for us, that we did things TOGETHER, and did not go see friends by ourselves etc. (at that time. Now we have other friends whom are married and have children)

3. Be Content. I can't quote the scriptures enough on this one. You ABSOLUTELY have to be content. Don't go for the latest fanciest cars and expect to live in a McMansion before 25. Be happy in the small things in life. A warm bed at night. A good spouse. A nice hot shower. Don't fill voids by buying more stuff and always wanting more. This helps all through life, but learn it early on, especially as you start a career.

4. Pray with your spouse. Care for your spouse spiritually as well as emotionally. Small gestures are huge in contentedness.

When you love each other, pray together, don't want a bunch of expensive stuff, are not greedy, don't care about status symbols, trends, partying, being popular, showing off, getting drunk, and seek the well being for your spouse in all matters, it is wonderful.

Small wages can do great things for the contented non-worldly mind. You can literally start off debt free, living in a small place, save up for something a bit nicer but modest, and buy it debt free. No need to live with parents.

I know I make it sound easy, but it is for those who can accept less at first.

I'm not bashing College..... I don't find the point in it though.

Quick Story for everybody. True place, real business. This is about College, and how choices you make in life, make it "not as great as it seems".

This is about a family member of mine (cousin), who worked for a practice with 4 Medical Doctors.

Grace my CLOSE cousin, (who married young like my wife and myself) started working for a medical practice at 18 years old. She lived a very contented life (I learn a lot from her) and her and her husband are some of the happiest people with their 3 children. Anyway, at this practice, there were these doctors who were full M.D.'s and could prescribe medicine etc.

They bought a very fancy building for their practice with fountains going over their carved in stone logo, and all kinds of fancy stuff in the office.

Grace commuted 5 minutes from her modest home for 15 years that she worked there. Now her husband and her are "semi-retired" and live off VERY part time wages because their lives are lived inexpensively and cheap. They are just a bit older than my wife and I. (lower 40's)

Doctor 1: Doctor 1, was the founder. He was married all his life. He worked 55 hours a week and commuted 15 minutes to the office daily. He had the stress of owning this office and practice for a long time. Stress of bills, paychecks, building repair fees, etc. He is about 82 years old now, and still goes in every day - 55 hours a week. He is a protestant Christian, and seems like a good man. (he's also my doctor)

Doctor 2: Doctor 2, is a Buddhist, and her husband a Roman Catholic (yea I know LOL). Anyway, this lady ripped her husband in front of everybody all the time. She was miserable, snappy, and mean to everybody. She bought into the practice. She had swings of absolute joy and happiness for brief moments, then went all upset on everybody. Dramatic mean sometimes. She has a couple of Children. She commuted 25 minutes to work every day.

Doctor 3: Doctor 3 came from MONEY BIG TIME. Pregnant in medical school and did not have to drop out as her folks picked up the tab. Anyway, she was for years with husband #1 and divorced. Now she's married to a lawyer. They live in a $750,000 house in a very fancy part of North Texas. She commutes a WHOPPING 45 minutes to the office every day. She has several children from two different fathers.

Doctor 4: Is openly gay. Full blown homosexual... Even brings gay friends to the office. He tells the ladies their purse is "cute". (that kind). Anyway, he is off and on happy and mean. Goes into rampages at times, tissy fits, and other times he tries to be "fun gay". I believe (from the suburb city so not nearly exact from where Grace said) his commute is about 25 minutes. No children.

Anyhow Grace worked for these folks for a long time. Her and her husband married early, saved up everything they could. They paid off their home, found ways to save on their bills, and made do with what they had.

The office fell on hard times, and had to LAY OFF Grace (no fault of her own she was told). Well she retired at 41. Her husband works 2-3 hours a day tops at home.

So these doctors have a ton of responsibility. They have to pay their employees, building costs, equipment repairs, malpractice insurance, computers, figure in tax info, fight insurance companies, etc. etc. etc. Sure they are PAID a LOT. Yes, they all have SUPER fancy homes.

Grace and her husband have a modest home. 1350 square feet. 3 bedrooms.Neither were college educated.

Tomorrow, Grace gets to wake up, enjoy homeschooling her children.Tomorrow, her husband gets to wake up, work for 2-3 hours at home.Then they get to go on trails or to the park, library, etc.

Her doctors....

They get to work up patients, get stressed out, worry about stuff, and be in charge of so much.... So much it consumes them. They get to fight traffic every day. Sure they leave their office at 5:30-6pm, get to fight traffic home... Then figure out whats for supper. Grace had started to prepare supper at 4pm and left it to slowly simmer and get tastier....

Doctors had an enormously stressful day at work.Grace had a wonderful day with her children, at home, safe, and pretty stress free.

Okay, so the doctors get to fight traffic in their Lexus, and get to lay down on the $2000 mattress that night.... That is AFTER they get to their fancy huge house, that they get to only enjoy for a couple of hours before bed..... Then they get to get up and do it again the next day.

Grace, she just has her family to look forward to the next day. Yes, in a modest home, with a modest non-fancy paid off car.

Okay, I'll try to make my point.

Who's the sucker and who gets to enjoy their LIFE that they only get to live ONCE?Grace has plenty of time to reflect on God, pray, and not be so loaded down.The doctors do NOT get that joy. They get fancy vacations twice a year.

This is a complicated matter....

I'll give you MY opinion on it.

I believe the Doctors are enslaved to their lifestyle, non-contentedness, and are nuts. Sure smart. Sure nice degrees on the wall. Sure, they have "worldly status". But slaves.

Grace wakes up free every day. No stress to look forward to, other than her children sometimes. She is content and not enslaved to need more.

Ask yourself now, if you believe being a doctor, lawyer, engineer, etc., is worth all the stress, tie downs etc.orWould you rather wake up free 20 years from now, not consumed by debt, "enslaved to the debt", and forced to work something specific.

Lexus will get you from A to B.So will a 8 year old sub compact.

A million dollar house will let you sleep at night.A much more modest home will let you sleep at night.

A lot of advice has already been given that I agree with (it will differ from person to person, you'll have to wait to see what is also right for the other person, etc.) Fwiw I can just tell you my experience: I got married when I was 22 and Mary 19. We were both too young and too immature, and by the time we hit our mid-to-late 20s we were different people. The marriage ended in a less than satisfactory manner. I had a lot of good times, but looking back I can see that we weren't really compatible or meant to be together, and that we rushed into things too quickly (we were engaged after about 2 1/2 months of dating). Nonetheless, I don't know what I would have done differently, if anything.