We had our disagreements yesterday, but I'm going to agree with you 100% on this.

If one can imagine being in Germany as National Socialism was growing in power, to the point where displaying open dissent may as well be suicide, I
can understand the need to be pragmatic. Similarly, growing up and not knowing any better certainly gives leeway (especially as many aspects of the
Nazi agenda were slightly more covert, especially for kids). I watched 'The boy in Striped Pyjamas' yesterday, and that film shows differing degrees
of 'knowing', as well as the gradually unveiling and understanding which the young son of the prison camp officer goes through as his awareness of the
camp nearby increases.

A few years ago someone in Australia received a small public humiliation for challenging the ANZAC myth. We have a publc holiday called Anzac Day
which is in remembrance of all Australians and New Zealanders who have died in overseas wars, but is centred around a specific battle in a place
called Gallipoli. There is however an undercurrent of the idea of bravery, defending freedom; some say reckless valour in a good cause, looking back
at the invasion of Anzac cove.

The less popular but perhaps more apt description is the one of senseless slaughter of soldiers fighting for the 'Empire'. At the behest of the
British (our leaders, Oz not being a republic), Australian and New Zealand troops invaded Anzac cove in Turkey to try to get a few metres of higher
ground (full of Turks with machine guns). It was a massacre, a wholesale slaughter, and I question how brave it is to launch oneself into an almost
certain death. Of about 20 000 ANZAC troops who landed at Anzac cove, approximately 9000 died in this battle.

I've kind of drifted off-topic, so back on point, why is it wrong to criticise this useless battle so eulogised here? Did WW1 have any point of
reference like WW2 where it could be said that an evil was being fought? Or was it simply a war of Empires; colonial powers working out how to divide
the spoils of colonialism between them?

So yes, I've no doubt there were 'Good Nazis', just as people can state that the Anzac invasion at Gallipoli was a tragedy and a waste of life. The
Nazi ideology was far more acceptable back in the 1930s (until at least the war), with prominent Americans like Prescott Bush (yes, that family)
financing Nazi industrialists, and support from high up in the establishment men like the Dulles brothers. Black people and Jews were considered
inferior in most of Europe, and in the US there was legislated discrimination against people who were of African origin (never mind the Chinese,
Japanese, etc). South Africa continued to resemble a Nazi state until at least the end of the eighties with racism enshrined as law. Some state there
is reason to believe that Israel continues to have racism and discrimination as national policy.

So perhaps a pertinent point is that the Nazis (or Nazi like thought) were far more widespread than most people either believe or are aware, and I bet
people are more hesitant to criticise the US or Israel as holding certain Nazi like policies.

One could ask, are there good people in the Knesset party of Israel, or in the American government? Were there good people in power when Africa was
under apartheid? They couldn't all be evil, could they?

The issues we have been discussing are far more complex then they appear on the History 101 level of things. I suppose that at the end of the day,
it's all about the retention of power by those who have it.

I've heard ballads by bands that might be considered "right-wing" about the forced exodus of Germans from Eastern Europe post-World War II, or about
the terrible suffering of young conscripts in the Russian campaign.
But nobody else seems to sing about that, yet those were some of the experiences of my grandparents.
Millions upon millions of ordinary people - very young conscripts and civilians - also died and suffered in World War II.
Must they be negated from history?

I'm also a fan of a German punk band called "Gigi" and some of their songs, although a lot of their songs are about parties, or re-working old folk
songs, and even the political songs are so diffuse in critique that it's hard to say what they really want.
At the end of their greatest hits album they say they actually want dialogue.
Yeah, some of their songs are racist and offensive, but so was Guns 'n' Roses and many other groups.

I never liked songs, or shared songs, that are about hating any group of people.

I have posted historical songs which might be banned in Germany, for example in my thread on songs from World War II, but that context was obviously
for historical interest with a range of international music.
But still, in Germany that might not be allowed?

I watched some German documentaries on kids who got involved in the extreme right scene, and here I did hear some terrible music that was literally
about shoving Jews into the oven.
I'd never condone or listen to something like that (even if it may be satire).
It showed how quickly "normal kids" could turn into violent Nazi thugs, and there was a focus on music as the "gateway" into "harder things".

On the other hand, there were scenes where I felt the parents were over-reacting, and basically kicked their kids out for listening to music in their
bedrooms, and thus possibly drove them to street gangs.
It seems the parents probably came from a left-wing past (with its own history of Baader-Meinhof terror in Germany), and their initial reaction was
probably worse than some Christian preacher finding his child listening to Black Sabbath.

Sure, for some kids it's a sign of real problems and gang behavior.
But is that a reason to censor music for all?

I mean music and power-points by all kinds of cults and sects can be found, some of whom molested thousands of children, launched terror attacks, or
cleared out people's bank accounts and nest eggs.
Those cult-leaders are still quoted daily on Facebook, for example.
Are they any less harmful?
One cannot treat a symptom, while ignoring the underlying causes of unhappiness in society that drive people to such groups.

Of course that's not to undermine the parents and families who have a real problem with somebody involved in extreme politics, or violent gangs.
I'm sure that must require an intervention.

But can one just blame it on the music?
I'd think not.

I don't live in Germany, but I'd find it strange to live anywhere where I can't turn up my favorite band at the end of a long week, and let go of my
frustrations, whether it's experiences of homophobia, albophobia, or the wrong I see being done to another group of people out there.

I don't like governmental intervention in almost all social issues (or anything really, if not absolutely necessary) and I'm well aware of the highly
problematic implications of having governmental entities targeting political adversaries, especially because of the history of this nation.

From our perspective, the Nazis are the reason not only for our bad reputation in the world (which is the slightest problem with them obviously) but
these people sent our country into the darkest episode of our history.
Besides persecuting, terrorizing, torturing and murdering countless people during NS-rule, they started a war... and not just any war, but a worldwar
that killed millions and millions of people.
This left a mark on this nation and that is why you will never see the day the people of this nation will defend Nazis against the Government.

Nazis are for us what the Taliban/Terrorists are to you people in the United States. Probably even worse.
Think about that...

What did you do to your own nation and to the world, just because of 9/11?
Who are you to point fingers?

I guess for me the point is more about music, and how much music can really be blamed for behaviors and ideologies.

That's actually a debate that's been had continuously since the advent of rock music (and probably already in ancient Greece).

For example, I just listened to some "Gigi und die braunen Stadtmusikanten" songs, and I can't say they influenced my politics, and it's not going to
make me hate people or treat them with discourtesy.

I'm also a fan of Snoop Lion, and he has a song called "Here comes the King", and that song also implies a revolution that will kill people.
However, I assume that's also not to be taken literally.

For a long time in my younger years I tried to be something else.
But there was always that mocking that I was just another "whitey" trying to "steal" another culture.

Now I can make peace with who I am.
I don't consider myself superior, and I know there's a long history of anti-German discrimination in the world, which probably led to the punitive and
deliberately humiliating closure of World War I.

I'm actually pro-Zionist and Israel, although I'd largely stay out of that business (which really has little to do with the current music for me in
any case).

There's more slavery now than ever in the world, and I wish the non-Western countries would address it.
We have historical things to be ashamed about, but oh boy there are some cultures that are living examples of apartheid and slavery today (never even
mind no rights for women and homosexuals), and the liberal intelligentsia is very quiet about it.

They're also very quiet about xenophobia in South Africa, or the way in which minorities were treated since African independence, and the sheer black
racism that saw Uganda and Zanzibar expel their entire Asian communities, or whites in the Congo being put through the saw-mills.
Zimbabwe just gave foreign shop-owners (mainly Nigerians and Chinese) until the start of 2014 to close their businesses.
Imagine any European country did that!
The accusations of "Fascism" would echo across the Atlantic, and rightfully so.

There's probably a lot of frustration with politics in Europe, and so now they try to wish it away by banning music.
To me that's like throwing gasoline on a fire.

Europe is not just a place that every failed and corrupt ideological and impoverished religious disaster state should have free access to.
That's not fair global politics.
It is also the home of indigenous European peoples, who also should have rights to their lands and heritage.

I'm very, very far from being pro-Zionist or pro-Israel (actually I'm pro-Palestine), but most of what you say is spot-on and well said. Yes,
Europe should belong to the Europeans - the nations of Europe gave up colonialism, and should receive the same consideration in return.

I am Jewish by my genes, but I was raised in Australia without religion.

I am not Zionist and I do not support the policies of the state of Israel. I also do not support the 2 state solution as the Palestinian lands have
been so cut back with fences, and bisected by roads only for Israeli citizens that there is effectively little (if anything) they would gain, and I
believe the Israeli government intend to hack away at Palestinian lands bit by bit, in a gradual war of attrition.

I personally identify very little, if at all, with Judaism, but there is a Liberal secular schoo, of thought that I do not have a problem with. That
way of thinking recognises education as highly important, and it also recognises the intrinsic human rights of people of all nationalities, all
colours, and all religions, and the right to practice one's beliefs and have a tolerance for the beliefs of others. It's all very idealist, but in
my opinion, if labels are going to be used I would much prefer this than that horrible colonial dominating mindset known as Zionism.

I do not believe there will ever be peace in Israel/Palestine unless a One-State solution is met. This would require Jews and Palestinians to be
treated as equal citizens and to have equal rights. The original state of Palestine had Arab Muslims, Arab Christians, and Arab Jews. They share the
same DNA, and if one believes in what the Bible and Koran says about this, they share the same father Abraham/Ibrahim. On a slight tangent, the
Indians have Brahma (with his wife Sarasvati - Sara to the Jews), possibly the same person as well.

Israel is now dominated by the Ashkenazim Jews who are European, not Arab, and Arabic Jewry may experience racism from what some call the occupiers.
It's very complicated, as the Christian Arabs tend to side more with the Jewish/Zionist people rather than the Muslim.

Ultimately, my belief is that until Israel/Palestine is a free country for all citizens, there will continue to be trouble there.

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