Counting carbs/calories is a drag. Obsessive scale stepping is a recipe for despair. If you want to count something, "days on habit" is a much better metric. Checking off days on a calendar would do just fine, but if you do it here you get accountability and support. Here's how. Start a new topic in this forum called (say) "Your Name Daily Check In." Then every N day post a "reply" to that topic as to whether you stayed on habit. A simple "<font color="green">SUCCESS</font>" or "<font color="red">FAILURE</font>" (or your preferred euphemism if that's too harsh) is sufficient, but obviously you're welcome to write more if you want. On S-days just register that you're taking an S-day. You don't have to do this forever, just until you're confident you've built the habit. Feel free to check in weekly or monthly or sporadically instead of daily. Feel free also to track other habits besides No-s (I'm keeping this forum under No-s because that's what the vast majority are using it for). See also my <a href="/habitcal/">HabitCal</a> tool for another more formal (and perhaps complementary) way to track habits.

7/ Trader-Os, milk, mini Wegman's sticky bun
11/ homemade soy latte
1230/ lovely white beans with proscuitto and tomato, bread with butter and fig jam, nectarine, a few chips and salsa and a few pecans; seltzer with orange juice. Could have bagged the chips and salsa. I eat generous lunches!
5:30/ handful of cashews because I knew dinner would be late
7:15/potato with broccoli, cheese, ham

Lifted weights-- sore!

Last edited by Larkspur on Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lately I have discovered (rediscovered) eating beans. They are awesome for satiety. Also rejoicing that I continue not to think about food much between meals-- I used to routinely crave food at four but that has gotten almost miraculously easier. I have, however, been having one diet soda a day. Which is terrible. I have LPR (the silent kind of reflux) and I should not be indulging in that dreadful stuff. Coping with what seems to be a sharp plunge into menopause-- taking black cohosh, turning the thermostat to two degrees above absolute zero at night, and taking melatonin for the sleep trouble.

Still not plating properly. I sort of just get things out and eat them, though I don't usually do seconds.

I have more time this year, which I hope to parlay into better fitness and better food and dropping a few pounds. I so want to set an example for my much-loved DD.

Ugh seems like we're dealing with a lot of the same stuff-reflux, menopause etc. My daughter is a vegetarian so we eat A lot of beans. They're so versatile and nutritious. What a great food item.

It's hard giving up those drinks isn't it? I used to drink a venti mocha every single day and never thought I could give it up. After several months I switched to sugar free, no whip version. Then when I had to give up coffee & chocolate because of my reflux I switched to tea. It then found that even bother me so I drink this tecchino chickory coffee like drink. But really I find I just need some sort of ritualized drink to carry around with me. Lately even some unsweetened almond milk w/ a teaspoon of honey over ice is enough to keep me happy.

That's a long way of saying you'll be surprised what you can get used to. I do better with substitutions rather than completely cutting something out so maybe keep trying till you find something to take the place of those diet sodas.

I baked All The Things for the church bazaar last week. I chewed gum and sipped drinks and generally tried, but I still had too much of the wrong things and biliary pain (no gallbladder anymore, but I still sometimes get that) and realized I was just eating too much fat. It was enough to turn me Vanilla. So I have been Vanilla so far this week. Still aiming for more fruit/veggie/legumey meals. There's a little bit of Fear of Eating going on-- so many things are thought to be Wrong depending on your dietary creed.

So the fear is not from the effects the food might have on your reflux? Which would be legitimate.

I have to admit that I've gotten to the point at which I am not comfortable with the idea of eating just anything at my meals. I actually never did eat willy nilly, but I felt like it should be okay if I did. There's no doubt in my mind that SAD is not going to sustain a person longterm, and that even eating non-manufactured food it's better to have certain ratios, as traditional societies do, though they don't aim at that. But I don't want it to be a reason I go into WTH if I don't meet the standard.

Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 9 years & counting
Age 65
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

There's a little bit of Fear of Eating going on-- so many things are thought to be Wrong depending on your dietary creed.

If you have pain/discomfort when you eat certain foods than I think you probably have a relatively easy way to know what foods you should limit your personal diet. My best-case dietary needs may vary from yours so ultimately the only standard you need to follow is your own.

Perhaps commit to vanilla for a month (or the magical 21 days) and see where you stand at the end of it.

I do get some sort of not very obvious heartburn after eating. And too much fat does not go down well. But the greater discomfort is mental, when I let myself get lost in the Venn diagram of tasty/plant-based/satisfying/slimming. My lovely mom died when she was a little younger than I am now, so my dietary fretting has a bit of a sharp edge. But, overall, I feel pretty good-- not the cast iron digestion of my youth, but I'm okay.

A super nice, cozy day. Weather finally seasonal, if drippy. Helped DH at work since his office manager is out. He was away for almost a week and it has been so nice to have him back. National events are so stressful and upsetting, and yet my little town feels decent and safe, people are good to each other, I've lived here a long time and have a good web of friends and acquaintances. When I shorten my focus, things are good. I don't want to stop doing what I can to "heal the world" as my rabbi friends say, but it helps to shut down the headlines for a while.

B/ mango/apple/banana smoothie, English muffin with butter
L/carrot, cottage cheese with flax seed, pecans and raisins, a few spicy chickpeas, and Smartfood
4/coffee with soy milk and a few chocolate chips
D/ macaroni and cheese, homemade applesauce, 2.5 strips bacon

I tend not to buy too much into all that dietary noise out there. Everyone has an agenda. Balanced diet with all the food groups mostly home cooked food everything in moderation including a little junk food now & then.

Linda-- re ignoring the noise, wise advice. I get into certain worry patterns, and that is a familiar and well worn pattern. I have a few favorite themes my brain likes to fall into. Have to kick it out again. That was a great Garrison Keillor piece, thank you!

This week I kinda had one of those moments where I realized I just need to kick it into gear. I can't seem to manufacture these moments, they just seem to come. I was pretty much vanilla all week. My S days are Friday and Saturday. Friday was a little fitful and aimless as I had some sense of trying to "fit things in." I love to bake but my younger daughter is not eating much of that stuff these days and we can't really go through it before it gets beyond its best. I don't want to buy a lot of sweet stuff cause I don't really want to open the door, you know? Nothing I had yesterday really hit the spot of "that was great, so glad I did it!" I think I did slim down a bit during the week of Vanilla and that's heartening. On some level I felt like it wasn't working for weight loss (though I love it in every other respect) but of course I wasn't really conforming. There's still the problem of avoiding sweets during the week maybe making me too greedy on the weekend, but I'm going to try to cope with that as it comes around and see what happens.

I was pecking around the internet last night and pursued a discussion of the Gilmore Girls actress's health habits. I was always mildly annoyed by their modeling eating tons of crap food without any evidence of harm to their health, figures or complexions. People found it refreshing to get away from "girls have to eat salads" but it also implied they belonged to some super race exempt from the laws of thermodynamics (there are some people like that!) And in fact Lauren Graham eats 1700-1800 calories a day of very simple, whole food. She had a spit bucket for all that junk food on the show. She also exercises hard for an hour a day. She says she thinks consistency is important and the less she eats, the less she thinks about it. So in some ways it was helpful to see that I am not necessarily being victimized by my metabolism

Larkspur wrote:Linda-- re ignoring the noise, wise advice. I get into certain worry patterns, and that is a familiar and well worn pattern. I have a few favorite themes my brain likes to fall into. Have to kick it out again. That was a great Garrison Keillor piece, thank you!

This week I kinda had one of those moments where I realized I just need to kick it into gear. I can't seem to manufacture these moments, they just seem to come. I was pretty much vanilla all week. My S days are Friday and Saturday. Friday was a little fitful and aimless as I had some sense of trying to "fit things in." I love to bake but my younger daughter is not eating much of that stuff these days and we can't really go through it before it gets beyond its best. I don't want to buy a lot of sweet stuff cause I don't really want to open the door, you know? Nothing I had yesterday really hit the spot of "that was great, so glad I did it!" I think I did slim down a bit during the week of Vanilla and that's heartening. On some level I felt like it wasn't working for weight loss (though I love it in every other respect) but of course I wasn't really conforming. There's still the problem of avoiding sweets during the week maybe making me too greedy on the weekend, but I'm going to try to cope with that as it comes around and see what happens.

I was pecking around the internet last night and pursued a discussion of the Gilmore Girls actress's health habits. I was always mildly annoyed by their modeling eating tons of crap food without any evidence of harm to their health, figures or complexions. People found it refreshing to get away from "girls have to eat salads" but it also implied they belonged to some super race exempt from the laws of thermodynamics (there are some people like that!) And in fact Lauren Graham eats 1700-1800 calories a day of very simple, whole food. She had a spit bucket for all that junk food on the show. She also exercises hard for an hour a day. She says she thinks consistency is important and the less she eats, the less she thinks about it. So in some ways it was helpful to see that I am not necessarily being victimized by my metabolism

RE: thin female characters famed for eating a lot. Grace Adler on Will and Grace. Even if it were true that she could gorge and stay skinny, I still resented it. Their kidding of her was the only price she had to pay for gorging.

Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 9 years & counting
Age 65
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

Feeling good about my No-Sing. Still fairly vanilla-- had an extra spoon of potato salad last night, but that's not too egregious. I was reading up on resistant starch and made my friend's fabulous potato salad, so a win all around Getting better with plating though that still needs some work. I feel like that last week or so I have been easing up on my meals sizes (fewer instances of feeling Way Too Full) and I have shed a little fat, yay.

I read with interest an article that Linda linked-- the one about the best longevity being associated with a BMI or 26 or 27. I had read elsewhere that "normal" BMI was revised downward from 27 to 25 some years ago.

That said, I continue to be somewhat distressed and ruminative about my eldest daughter's weight. (I worry about my youngest's weight for opposite reasons, sigh!) She's the most awesome person imaginable-- kind, helpful, academically competent. She's not gorging on twinkies or anything but she eats every few hours and it's often something like tortilla chips and cheese. It's just that she gained most of this weight at Oxford and I'm not used to it-- she was normal weight until about two years ago, got a little roundy and hippy, then overseas and wow. Maybe 30-40 pounds. We haven't been able to talk about it, really. She's like my husband-- a highly duty-driven, kind, conscientious person, but she doesn't like to be perceived as less than perfect (neither does he) which keeps them to a high standard, but they're not the most, um, receptive to conversations which bring up the things they struggle with. I'm just worrying she's doing intuitive eating which I am convinced is probably good for a lot of things but fairly useless at keeping you clear of obesity. (I suspect she was somewhat depressed overseas and a conversation here made me think that eating probably kept her from feeling worse.) My belief is that is just locks you into a constant struggle with food. Am I hungry? Am I really hungry? What do I want? How much do I want? No S is so much simpler and healthier but it does take time to adjust. And of course, every person has to find their own path-- you can't impose a system from the outside. It won't stick and she wouldn't stand for it anyway.

This is all in my buffer-- I haven't said anything. I'm trying to figure out what to say and how much. I always emphasized that weight is a number and not a measure of personal worth. I wish we could talk about it free of shame which doesn't belong. Overfat is a manifestation, not a moral failing. I know most people would advise me to leave it completely alone but if I saw her drinking too much or doing lots of weed I would say something. Is this really different? I'm not sure.

Last edited by Larkspur on Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Of course, you're preaching to the choir here. NO slim culture on earth eats on whims. Poor girl. Nobody gains 30 lbs, listening to their true hunger. And the British are hefty eaters, so there was probably lots of reinforcement for frequent eating. (In 2011 the Guardian reported that British women became the heaviest in Europe.) If she had gone to Italy or France, it would probably have been a different story. She does have a better prognosis than some because she was once slimmer. I can imagine your dilemma. I wouldn't listen to my parents at that age on that subject at all, and probably would have been incensed they brought it up. I would hope she doesn't get caught in the diet world, either.

Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 9 years & counting
Age 65
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

Yesterday I was a little hungry in the middle of the night, but I managed to get back to sleep by switching venues, rather than remaining next to my well-loved but heat-producing husband.

My pants are a little loose. After about six months-- is it six?-- getting the three meals a day down, I am trying to move into being a little more careful of my plates. I still pop things into my mouth making meals though

I have a tween, and I agree that comments about the body for young women can be freighted. I remember gaining a bunch of weight in college, and though I was still probably in the normal BMI, I was SO self-conscious. That's tough.

Oh dear, I really feel for you about your daughter. My oldest daughter (14 yrs) has always been super skinny and she's a natural eater in that she really will stop when she's full despite the food tasting good. She regularly turns down sweets because she's not hungry but recently she's been gaining weight.

I really don't know how to handle it either. I don't want her to feel I'm being critical of her looks but I do have concerns about her ability to take care of her health. She's not exercising, and when she's at school she buys junk food. I know she'll be very annoyed with me if I bring it up but I feel like I have a responsibility, right?

I guess we have to try to do it in the most gentle way possible? Anyway, sorry I'm no help. Best of luck!

I don't know if it helps but the tact I've taken is to say nothing until the subject of diet/eating/health comes up then I say some version of, "What I do is. . . " without ever suggesting that they do the same. That way it's just a conversation and they can take or leave what they want from it.

It definitely worked with husband and 1 daughter. Maybe 2 daughters but the 2nd one is a lot more closed-mouth than the 1st so I'm not sure.

Thanks for the support, my dears! I still haven't worked out how to talk to her. She won't like it, and she's such a good, good kid-- I juuuust caaaan't cause her pain, and I'm uncertain whether it's going to be helpful anyway. We were joking at family dinner the other day-- composing alternate advice to a question on an advice column. We came up with the idea of one day a month where you say all the negative and unpleasant relationship maintenance stuff that has to be unloaded. Perhaps I can suggest a Miserable Monday where we broach topics that have to be handled with tongs.

Sunday a little woolly with the treats. Probably not the only one to notice how it goes from not having to think about food to fretting/negotiating/worrying on S days. Lately I'm awarding myself an A- on no sweets, an A on no snacks, and a B- on no seconds.

Today I did a super fun thing, which was go swimming with my husband. We are going to try for that at least once a week. Great exercise, feels awesome when you're done. Have to resist the reprehensible impulse to flirt and canoodle in the water. DH is not a big one for public canoodling.

Son's birthday today so I will probably have a slice of his ice cream cake.

Larkspur, that is so sweet that you had to resist water-based flirting! Happy birthday to your son

Just a little perspective from the kid side - I was a rake thin kid until puberty, regularly refused food when not hungry, etc. Around puberty-ish (14 / 15) I got much more average sized, which to me, and those around me, seemed like I was getting "fat". I think because I'd always been a "natural" beanpole, people around me reacted and commented. I look back now and realise that truly all that happened was I went from a skinny kid body to the beginnings of a woman's body. Anyway, all of this triggered my first quiet diet attempt in mid-high school.

Later on in college / early work, I gained a bit more, due to the combination of being still more (sitting to study or work) and being old enough to drink! Now I was truly getting overweight, not just "not a beanpole anymore". Believe me when I say I was PAINFULLY aware of this, and being a "good kid" and achiever in other areas felt very much like I was failing. People commented as if I needed to be made aware, or was somehow cool with it, and I felt even worse. This was the start of my 20's decade of yo-yo calorie counting down and rebounding back up.

Why do I relate all this? Well, mostly just to suggest keeping the focus off weight and on healthy eating habits and exercise. Of course, we all try to prepare healthy food for our kids, steer them away from junk and make sure they get plenty of movement into their day, whether through organised sports or active play / family walks etc. We try to be good role models -
in fact it's one of my motivations for No Sing. That's all part of parenting. But I look back now and wish that I'd had less comments about how I "used to be so skinny" and more just a friend or family member saying "hey, would you like to go for a walk at the beach together?". The same people saying "ironchef is not making the most of her youth being so unfit" would also be the ones baking treats for afternoon tea parties. Mixed messages abounded.

Thanks, ironchef! Yes, I'm quite sure she knows and is upset about it. So talking to her feels like poking a finger in a wound. But I am worried based on something she said that she's fallen for the line that overweight isn't harmful to health until it affects mobility, and the preponderance of evidence just does not seem to point that way. Ah well, perhaps we will float the idea of Frankness Friday, and find a way to open a discussion.

B/ banana/milk/whey smoothie; bowl of puffed wheat with milk and honey. Little worried about that breakfast lasting, but it's grocery day and there weren't too many options

OK, Zumba yesterday (it's so fun, my heart rate really gets too high for a 51 year old-- have to remind myself to ease off.) And I get to go swimming with my DH today.

Yesterday was Trick or Treat night. My town offsets Halloween to a school night to discourage disorderly behavior. The older part of town gets a huge turnout. Everyone's out on the streets, it's quite fun. I ended up having a super late lunch due to appointments, and dinner not till 9. I would, of course, love to be lighter, but I was so thrilled with the change in what I suspect is insulin regulation-- I didn't go crazy at lunch, even though it was late, and I didn't get that visceral reaction to candy. I ended up having my dinner at nine and I ate 3 pieces of candy with it. It was just nice not to be entranced by sweets. I think the exercise might be helping with my insulin regulation as well. Not quite sure re the best way to go about trimming calories so as to avoid getting into a Thing-- I'll stick with vanilla No S for now. I'm halfway tempted to just be okay with my weight now, but my BMI is 30. Twenty pounds would put me at 27 and my face wouldn't be fat, which would be cheerful. I don't mind a capacious rear so much as I dislike a chubby face

I take my S's on Friday and Saturday-- Friday was fine. Saturday I had weird hunger at times I normally wouldn't. I'm thinking inadequate breakfast/sugar/drinking diet soda? I ate lots and often. This morning I had my usual apple/mango/banana/yogurt/flax smoothie and an English muffin and I've been fine.

It would be good to work on my dietary defaults. The smoothie and muffin or toast would work for breakfast, unless I wanted oatmeal with the works. Need to figure out the best lunch. Maybe a soup or chili, something with vegetable protein, and some crackers or bread and a handful of nuts. A soy latte as needed. And I need to block out our swimming times and my Zumba classes.

I definitely do better with a good breakfast as opposed to junky food.

I'm confused on the Halloween thing. Isn't Halloween on a school night this week? Do you just celebrate it the same night every year? I actually wish they'd pick like the last fri or sat night of October to celebrate it but then again we haven't had a lot of problems that I know of.

I think you meant the town offsets Halloween from a school night to a weekend night. I thought I'd see some Halloween people out when I had dinner out Friday night. Even at a Dia de los Muertos event I didn't see any costumes or face makeup.

Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 9 years & counting
Age 65
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

No, they want it on a school night. They always move it to Thursday before actual Halloween, I assume so the children will not be out too late wreaking havoc. It wigged me out the first year I moved here, twenty years ago

Went to Zumba today. Thinking about trying to reduce my eating window a little, like a 16:8 thing. I don't think I can emulate Linda's five hours but I figure I'll try it and see if it helps shift my weight a little. I might be able to manage a 10 am breakfast, 2 o'clock lunch, 5 pm dinner kind of thing. We'll see.

Linda has got me reading TONS on time restricted eating. I am thinking many of our wonderful NoS benefits come from this practice-- if you eat three meals and no snacks, you are probably fasting at least 12 hours. I tried to fit an 8 hour window today but that wasn't happening-- dentist appointment on one end (so glad I didn't make myself get through drilling on a growling stomach) and my being lazy after swimming on the other. So, ok, a ten hour window

If you are a weight and health study junkie like me, you will enjoy this site:

Visited my dear friend and her husband yesterday. Had a totally lovely day, and enjoyed listening to IF podcasts (see above!) on the drive to and from. So I was very determined to keep a decent fasting window at night. But my friends are hobbits, practically (like 5'2" and rather trim) and the dinner I had with them, while delish, was bread and caprese salad, so it did definitely did not stick. I finally had to get up at 1 am to eat so I could sleep and was then really upset with myself. Ah me. It's one day-- moving on!

Glad you're enjoying the podcasts! I listen to them while I drive to get my daughter from school. You kinda gotta white knuckle the first few days but it gets easier. It's important to eat a good amount in your feasting window though so don't blame you for eating that snack. I can't sleep if I'm too hungry.

Would love to hear your thoughts as you get further into the podcasts. All my friends think I'm crazy!

Oolala, I comforted myself with the thought that my S days are Friday and Saturday LOL. I don't like plain milk, but a hot Ovaltine might have been a good way to go. It was cereal and applesauce (I wanted the insulin spike to make me sleep) but it sat there like lead and altogether made me feel disgruntled and annoyed. In my optimist's way, I've decided it was actually a good learning experience for what does not go well, and last night's chicken and roasted vegetables held me over beautifully until around 9:30 this morning. From the stuff I've been reading/watching, I am invested in trying to fast at least 12 hours at night, and preferably work up to 16. My body is trained to about 12 so I can get 13-14 without too much trouble. I'll just do the best I can.

Been listing to The Obesity Code on Audible and while I expect to part ways/get annoyed at some point, it's making a lot of sense so far. I really do believe that obesity is a hormonal regulation problem, and if you can get the hormones into something resembling decent order, you can do much better. NoS has been very helpful for this by addressing snacking and sweets, which in my opinion are the two major branches by which insulin regulation goes awry.

Linda, thanks for the tip on the podcasts. I think the most fascinating thing about the fasting is the idea that it isn't bad for you-- I always felt it was a terrible idea, because I always felt so incredibly bad. But I'm noticing that when my body's trained (NoS) and I'm not having sweet tastes, I seem to be fine. And the literature does seem to support the healthfulness of certain kinds of mild fasting. I'm hoping to get to 16:8-- doubt I will make that today, because of various social events/life constraints. But even a few days a week I think it would be worth doing.

What astounds me about what Fung says is the idea that the vast majority of his successful patients are ultimately NOT eating less when they fast for 24-36 hours. Or not admitting that their incentive has a big influence on compliance. I do think the fasting is part of the solution for those with insulin issues and is a superior technique for some people than traditional calorie reduction.

Only extended time will tell if it fits you.

Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 9 years & counting
Age 65
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

I'm listening to the Jason Fung book on Audible and also watching some of the videos on Foundmyfitness, scientist interviews. Interesting how many of those people eat only 1 or 2 meals a day and do 4-5 day water fasts during the year. I am still not feeling ready for a long fast. One of these days, I'll get my courage up.

Today I kept about an 8 hour window but I ate three times. I'd like to try for 2 meals, but I don't want to fail at it/flail around/get discouraged. My preference is to set the bar low and do it I'm particularly intrigued by the idea of being clearer headed when not digesting. I went to church this morning before eating and I fancied it was easier to be attentive, but that may be placebo effect

So last night I had a rough time sleeping. I definitely felt empty, though not hungry per se. I toughed it out, finally slept around 2. Got up at 7 but was able to go back to bed for an hour or two after I got my daughter off to school. I delayed BF till about ten. Lunch at 2, dinner at 6:30. I ate more protein and fat at dinner. Veggies would probably help a lot but they take time to prepare when I'm rushing around getting people to and from work and rehearsal. I also had a couple of bites of pie dough-- is that weird or what? I was going to make myself an apple pie on Saturday but just didn't have time. So before I put the dough in the freezer I had a couple of bites. Not a health food, LOL.

I also had a couple of bites of pie dough-- is that weird or what? I was going to make myself an apple pie on Saturday but just didn't have time. So before I put the dough in the freezer I had a couple of bites.

I looove pie dough. Haven't made it in forever thou . . . The bits cut off the edges that hang over the pan . . . *sigh* . . . truly a walk down memory lane.

Last nightâ€™s dinner at Wegmans was lovely Broccoli/cheese soup, this yummy raw veggie crunch salad they have, some apple fennel salad (also fabulous), and half a piece of stromboli. We ate at six, and it got me fine through the night. So yesterday I had about 9 hour eating window, and Iâ€™m going to shoot for 8 today. I feel like the eating window approach helps me manage hunger,, and as an insulin resistant person with diabetes in the family, I figure it makes sense to experiment with more time fasted. Still enjoying my lovely three meals.

Swam/water jogged half an hour with my lovie, band says I walked 9K steps and did 19 flights of stairs in the course of my duties. Also had a flaming snit about my MIL which probably burned a lot of calories (ABOUT my MIL. Not in front of my MIL, thank God.)

Did Zumba. More sedate with my band which is letting me know my HR is Right Up There for a person of mature years. Band claims I walked 13k steps, did 20 flights, and burned 3k calories. Doubt the latter

Happy with recent changes in fitness/how I look. I'm feeling good on the shorter eating window and I have bought into the idea that it helps with insulin resistance. Blessings on NoS which really lays the foundation for resting your gut/avoiding excessive sweets, both of which appear to be important in insulin regulation. I'm still having three meals, they're just a little more compressed. Would ideally like to move towards two but that might make more sense at a later stage. DH is eating 16:8 with me. We'll see how we do.

Last edited by Larkspur on Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

Hey, all. Now combining NoS with 16:8 intermittent fasting. It is easy thanks to the 8 months of training in not snacking. I still keep sweets for the weekend and I am sort of trained out of seconds too, lol, though thatâ€™s less of a temptation when meals are 4 hours apart. I looked slimmer, friends commenting on it, before I saw a drop in weight. This morning after 2 S days I was down three pounds. So altogether down about ten since I started in March. The important changes in blood work and freedom from cravings came with NoS. It is nice to see the scale move.

Larkspur wrote:Hey, all. Now combining NoS with 16:8 intermittent fasting. It is easy thanks to the 8 months of training in not snacking. I still keep sweets for the weekend and I am sort of trained out of seconds too, lol, though thatâ€™s less of a temptation when meals are 4 hours apart.

I am finding snacking is no problem with 16:8 too. My breakfast is pretty light since I am at work, so I am pretty hungry for lunch but don't want to ruin it by snacking. I have a "full" lunch (i.e., I don't under-eat in an effort to diet), and that holds me until my "full" dinner. I go to bed two hours (or less) after dinner, so I certainly have no desire to snack at night. Fasting makes No S easier!

Feeling very enthusiastic and convicted about the Intermittent Fasting component. Once again, we will have to see if it results in more actual poundage liberated, but I plan to do it anyway for insulin sensitivity/health benefits unless some new studies come out to the contrary. The insulin theory of obesity makes so much sense to me and it fits in so well with NoS, except for maybe one thing, which is the Breakfast Problem. That is a whole discussion I will not be boring about here. I am operating on 2-3 meals in an 8 hour window at this point. I think 2 meals might be the sweet spot for this middle aged hypothyroid person. I switched scales this morning. I have this whimsical analog scale that I can argue with, depending on how I lean in the morning. The digital scale weighs within a pound. It is painfully 3 or 4 pounds higher (depending on how I lean!) but I'm going to go with that. Hoping to be more health than scale focused, so if the digital one drives me bananas, I will switch back.

For the check in-- yesterday I ate at 11:15 and 5, and swam/waterjogged with DH.

So I have not been feeling the best-- sleep has not been great since last summer, when my estrogen dived. I've had some right hip pain off and on and yesterday I was just sore all over, neck and both hips and knee and bleh. I suspect I'm a little ball of inflammation and the thought of having to eat paleo makes me want to cry. Also, I got my feelings hurt at choir last night. I don't know if my brain and decision making is also out of whack or whether I am right to gently let this particular facet of my life go. I have a pretty tranquil life at present and most of my crying, which is like twice a year, is related to choir. It twangs some old painful strings about Not Fitting In and not belonging, which is my old bugaboo. So I don't know if I'm not getting enough exercise, I don't have enough going on in my life at the moment (I like it that way), or if intermittent fasting is releasing toxins into my bloodstream I think I'll look up "yoga for people who are bumming".

In what I guess is brighter news, it's not hard to stick with two meals, a midmorning brunch and then dinner for a fasting window of I don't know, 19 hours I guess. I like the simplicity of eating twice and I'm pretty sure I'm eating less overall. Will probably eat three times today because I am not taking my elderly MIL to the doctor on an empty stomach. Nope.

Larkspur wrote:So I don't know if I'm not getting enough exercise, I don't have enough going on in my life at the moment (I like it that way), or if intermittent fasting is releasing toxins into my bloodstream

I had a pimple this week and celebrated the released fat releasing toxins.

Sorry choir is making you cry. I hope you can work it out or find a new place for your voice.

Oh, sorry to hear choir made you cry Larkspur! It's really easy for me to feel like the outcast in group situations (ingrained in me from my school years as a "weird" nerd), and even now I'm a grown woman it doesn't take that much to throw me back into the shoes of an awkward 15 year old.

Boring thyroid story:
I think I may have a clue to my poor sleep/joint aches. I got my TSH back (thyroid stimulating hormone) and it's 0.6 something, with reference range of 0.3 to 5. I started Synthroid a couple years ago for a modestly elevated TSH (7 something, when high normal is 5 and they don't always treat till 10). I felt better, fewer aches and the puffiness of my face improved. My levels were not changing much, we kept upping the dose without too much change. Then this one was zippety down. My doc says it's ok but I don't feel right so I wrote him about lowering the dose to get me a little more towards 5. I don't see the need to rev this 51 year old engine. I wonder if the IF is increasing my absorption or just making my own thyroid wake up a little. I googled it and it does look like a lot of people have had to cut their Synthroid dose. So until that goes down I am going to feel like someone's got their foot on my gas pedal. Might also help explain my hip pain, night waking, somewhat higher BP despite exercise, and crying in choir

In other news, the IF seems to make NoS much easier. Whether I eat two meals or three, I definitely don't need more than that in an 8 or 9 hour window.

If I haven't done it here already, recommending hither and yon Jason Fung's youtube video on The Aetiology of Obesity. I found it really persuasive and helpful. It explains a lot about why NoS is helpful.

Lunch with a friend, swimming with my DH, and then a yummy ice creamy delight at some point for my S Day. Happy Friday, all

Sorry you are or we're having a hard time. Did you cry in choir because of mean girls ? I wasn't sure by your post. One of the best thing my therapist helped me with was giving me permission to let people go. I'm learning to trust my instincts about people and if they don't lift me up, I'm not going to waste my time on them. It sounds like you have a good, happy life. Don't let a few ppl drag you down. I may write more about this on my thread later.

I hope your health stuff clears up but sounds like you're enjoying IF overall. It's early days still for me but it feels kind of life-changing at this point. We shall see.

I find the modified fasting helps with No S because it seems to provide the next level in terms of what I see called appetite correction. My son has been eating 2 meals a day and he has gotten much, much trimmer. He just picked at his linguine tonight-- said it was delicious but took it home to eat tomorrow. My husband looks thinner as well. I've lost some fat, but no real weight.

And that's where I enter a trigger warning, for those who don't want to read about backing off on weight loss. But I'm kinda ready to back off on weight loss. I don't think I eat too much or terrible food, by my definition of either. I don't see me trimming my intake much more, or changing the type of foods I eat dramatically. I eat 80% whole foods, not too bad on sugar. I don't typically snack, S days or not, and if I do it's still in that 8 hour window. Even though my weight is really high, borderline obese, I just don't see myself doing more in terms of food. I say this from a place of being fairly happy with my body, although I don't like how I look in pictures and I'm not thrilled with my BP which has edged up. At 5'8" and fairly active, I'm just not into the idea of living on 1400 or 1500 calories though I know many middle aged folk do just that. (My poor dad who's my height and forty pounds heavier subsists on 1000.) The one motivation I'm not ready to give up on is trying to set an example for my daughter. So maybe in January I will consider a harder push for a few weeks and then see if I can maintain it.

B at 10: 1.5 whole wheat pita pizzas
L at 2: package of peanut m&ms and the beef from an Arby's slider on the way home (no one will believe my whole foods claim LOL-- MIL in the hospital with a fall/broken shoulder + the office manager at my husband's practice is unexpectedly out for the week = schedule blown up)
D at 6 Carraba's: piece of bread and olive oil, lentil soup, cup of coffee with cream and sugar, half a serving of chicken marsala and sauteed broccoli

Yesterday I ended up not eating dinner, because I ate a lot at 10 and 2 and I just wasn't hungry. I fasted 19 hours pretty comfortably and I'm happy about that, because when I started NoS three quarters of a year ago, five or six hours about killed me

I have been at the point for most of my ride on No S of feeling like there wasn't much reason to want a lower weight because I wasn't going to do anything different anyway. I WAS willing to keep adjusting my eating for other reasons, though, mostly to try to cooperate with hunger or lack of it, but that is still a learning process and it wasn't linear.

Have a great December!

Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 9 years & counting
Age 65
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

So I have been off work since I left my job at the end of the school year last year. I subbed for the first time today. Shopping day is tomorrow and that meant I had to put together a makeshift lunch-- homemade baked beans, an apple and cheese. I didn't get to eat until 1230. Did fine with that (big improvement over pre-S days). But I came home at 3:30 and proceeded to tear through three pieces of French Toast, a sweet milky coffee, 2 squares of chocolate and some peanuts. Oh, and the last of the lemon curd! I need better dietary defaults! I ended up not eating dinner, which is less than ideal because dinner is important social time with my DD and DH. I slept okay, felt fine. So let's see, what if anything did I learn from this:

Don't lead with a meal with sweet tastes-- sort of a snowball rolling downhill effect.

On the bright side, I was able to close up shop after that second meal without particular difficulty.

Trying to figure out my meals so they work. I prefer to eat at regular times because I think it's better for me mentally and physically but of course I can't always do that. I've been aiming for 10, 2, and 6. I don't really need three whole meals, more like 2.5. Can't quite make it on two yet though I would like to get there.

Been noticing this weird urge to proselytize. Not sure what's up with that. I'm not thin, so I don't think I will gather much of an audience <G>. Maybe among the perimenopausal suffering hot flashes (now peri again, I guess. After 6 months I got another and quite real visitation of what we in college used to call Uncle George. Sorry for TMI!)

So from No S I got a lot of peace around food and normal mealtime hunger, instead of being yanked around by the sight of sweets and snack foods. I also got a drop in my A1C to the high normal range after being prediabetic. Thanks to some sources mentioned by Linda and Oolala, I lengthened my overnight fast to 14-16 hours. My hot flashes just stopped. Like, gone, from several an hour. I had to drop my Synthroid dose. My appetite is different. My pants need a pin again, though I haven't lost much weight. Food is so joyful. I *love* meals, they are *so* fun, instead of an argument with myself about what I should be eating. I often didn't feel awesome before and I was thinking I had to eliminate some food or other. I'm thinking now the main thing was giving my digestion a rest. I don't have biliary pain like I used to and my reflux is better. I don't get the mouth sores I used to get unless I took B complex religiously.

Some notes to self:

1. At meals, don't open with sweet. Seems to help with hunger if I eat that in the middle or the end. (I try to keep major desserts for S days, but I think I do better when I'm okay with sugar on my oatmeal or some chocolate.)

2. Sweet tastes like gum between meals seems to make me hungrier. Diet soda, alas, definitely has this effect. I still have it once or twice a week with a meal and just recognize the weird desire to eat after lunch as a diet soda tax.

3. Hunger does pass. I'll get busy and forget about it. It isn't the EAT NOW OR ELSE message I used to get. I felt this way on South Beach, but not eating bread was so sad. I get the same freedom now without having to give up bread. Yay!

4. Still working on meal timing. I think 2 meals a day would be best most days but I am having trouble getting it right. I'm ready for a hearty brunch at 11:30, but I can't always make it till 6 for dinner. If I eat at 10,2 and 6, I end up eating dinner when I am not really hungry. The other day I ended up skipping dinner which is socially not the best. I have a teenaged daughter and I have to be a little careful about the messages I'm sending. I'll keep working on it.

Swam Wednesday and did Zumba yesterday. Today I think I will stay in by the fire, nurse my daughter who has a cold, and kind of stick with the Red Tent <G>.

It seems you could afford to have a small snack, something un-dense like an apple, a couple of hours before dinner. When I've failed with something like that, I found that hunger came back in a relatively short time. Alternately, you could save something from your brunch to have for that snack and see if it works to tide you over.

Otherwise, good good good for you!

Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 9 years & counting
Age 65
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

Yay glad you're having some luck with the fasting. It seems to help a lot of ppl with menopausal symptoms. My reflux is 90% better and I'm off my hardcore meds!

In my IF group, they talk a lot about clean fasts. So no gum, artificial flavors or sweeteners, no mints because these things. An all spike your insulin and will cause you to be more hungry. Just black coffee or tea.

Ate what I expected to be BF at ten this morning. I was hungry, had 2 1/2 small square pita pockets with pizza toppings, a piece of leftover French toast, a milky coffee and 2 cookies (ahem)-- about 850 calories worth, I figure? And I was stuffed. Like, in distress stuffed. Like, could not consider food again until 5:30 pm stuffed. Decided to have some peanuts and a banana and I will eat something with DH and daughter at 7. I've had a couple of days where I've only had one meal. I would much rather eat at regular times but my appetite is really changing and I don't want to eat when not hungry. Ah well, I'll get it figured out.

I am working part time this year & I seem to have a little too much time to ruminate. I feel like I've been more anxious/sad than is usual for me. There is some significant role change stuff going on and of course my hormones are wonky. I'm going to make a conscious effort to back off on reading my current favorite topic, IF/weight loss/health stuff. I am looking forward to some lovely family & friend times this weekend and over Christmas.

Hi Larkspur, I think I was doing my very first check-in when you did your last post. I can relate to your feelings. I too have cut back on work recently, and have had times when I've been anxious and low. Having that time to ruminate can bring on these moods. I hope it will pass for you, as it has for me. Just wanted to send you good wishes.

Thanks, Octavia! I worked today and enjoyed it, in spite of a tummy ache. I kept to a window (not No S, but a helpful mod from IF) 10-6. But I didn't worry about meal structure because Tummy. Feeling better, yay.

I talked to my dad who watched the Jason Fung talk on obesity. I'd sent him an article (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 184424.htm)
and he has done 2 meals for the last week. He lost weight and was really pleased because he had less hunger/cravings than before. He thought he'd have trouble sleeping but he's done fine. No snacking for the win

There are many physical sensations that can urge eating other than "hunger," and they are not all necessarily evil. The problem with responding only to "hunger," IMHO, is that it can leave me feeling anxious about when I will get to eat again. Most people just don't have the whatever-it-takes to forget about food for hours and hours, except in the short run or when facing dire consequences, such as diabetes, CVD, etc. (and even then...) I wish I could! It's about what is habit-friendly, and in a food-rich environment, it may be asking for an awful lot. Of course, each person must figure it out on her own, but I don't know of any slim culture where most individuals eat only when hungry.

I don't mean to undermine your resolve, but forgive yourself if it's not a- ahem- cakewalk.

Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 9 years & counting
Age 65
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

I checked the scale when I subbed in my old health room. Down 10 from when I started No S so that's all to the good. I have been feeling terribly svelte and self admiring, and then I saw the Xmas pictures (people don't take pictures of me, it's a mom thing I guess? but my dear friend did.) And I definitely looked like someone whose BMI is still 29.9999 LOL. Dang photorealism.

So far, knock wood, I have only added 1/2 a pound with the holiday. There are a lot of sweets to be dealt with around here even though I tried to keep it down. Just that time of year. Kept to an 8 hour window all but one day and that has helped.

Fair amount of stress with ailing elderly parents but lots of friend visits and nice things too. Feeling optimistic about peeling off a few ounces a week eating 2-3 mostly whole foods meals in an eight hour window.

Larkspur wrote:I checked the scale when I subbed in my old health room. Down 10 from when I started No S so that's all to the good. I have been feeling terribly svelte and self admiring, and then I saw the Xmas pictures (people don't take pictures of me, it's a mom thing I guess? but my dear friend did.) And I definitely looked like someone whose BMI is still 29.9999 LOL. Dang photorealism.

So far, knock wood, I have only added 1/2 a pound with the holiday. There are a lot of sweets to be dealt with around here even though I tried to keep it down. Just that time of year. Kept to an 8 hour window all but one day and that has helped.

Fair amount of stress with ailing elderly parents but lots of friend visits and nice things too. Feeling optimistic about peeling off a few ounces a week eating 2-3 mostly whole foods meals in an eight hour window.

I'm convinced that "feeling thin" has a lot more to do with how I've been eating and moving, and what I wear than on how I actually look. I think this is a good thing. Sure, it can mean there are some disappointing moments looking at photos or in the mirror, but better to have a few of those than feeling overloaded all day long.

Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 9 years & counting
Age 65
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

Though a certain %age of people will sadly never get to this point, and I can't say I brought it about with any conscious action, I actually feel amused when I see photos of my old self. I admit that sometimes in my dance class, I get a little wave of chill seeing that my hips and thighs look bigger than they do in my mirror at home, though I'm sure it's not distorted. I am NOT amused by my old eating habits, though I'm not horrified or terrified by them either.

Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 9 years & counting
Age 65
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

* pretty much 3 meals in an 8 to 9 hour window. Digestion is notably better with the longer overnight fast and I am much less achy. So, middle aged people with poor digestion and occasional aches, consider checking out Time Restricted Eating. I think it would make a good fourth S. NoSSSS, except I'd have to think of a word for it that starts with S. I do worry the benefits will fade as I get used to it, but we'll hope not. It's certainly a pretty painless tweak for someone already accustomed to NoS.
* spirits & energy are good, sleep has improved, I look less fat
* still doing my daily Sun Salutation with 30 second plank

The less than optimal:

*I often get too full at meals. I have not been fixing a plate and sitting down to it. I do a lot of eating standing. Meal timing is still not always optimal and I need to work on that. I eat sweets every day (though I'm trying to move back towards saving most sweets for Friday/Saturday).

*Have not lost further weight. Still about 10 lb down.

*Exercise needs to be way better.

I am coming up on a year since I started NoS and it really has been wonderful. So glad I happened on the right search string and so grateful for the well-informed and kindly posters here. So, thanks guys!

In other news, I went clothes shopping with my older daughter. Poor love, she's gone from being a size 8 to a size 18 in two years. I think her body image really has not caught up with it. Yes, I've tried to get her to see a doctor but she is resistant, and she's 21, so not much I can do about it. We were able to talk about it a little bit. She says that the thought of restricting her eating makes her really anxious. She's in the middle of her thesis and tense about that. She's highly conscientious and on some level I suspect this feels so bad that she's got some denial going on. My husband said once in another context that you don't attack denial unless you have something better to offer. Anyway, she did great getting through the ouchy process of finding interview clothes. She is such a lovely person, inside and out. I'm really hoping everything gets easier and better for her. I really need to do better myself so I can help her.

I do time-restricted eating as well, Larkspur! I usually have a 14-16 hour fast depending on the day (and whether or not one counts coffee with a bit of coconut milk as interrupting the fast) and I am all the better for it. I used to have the worst heartburn and everyone said to cut this food or that, but I found that just eating supper earlier helped me reduce it by about 90%. Also it's helped my blood sugar tremendously.

My heart goes out to your daughter. I have several friends who gained a lot of weight while working on their theses because of the stress. It's a tough time. I hope she defends successfully and then maybe she can get back to her lifelong habits.

Yesterday I had two meals, noon and around 5:30 and that worked well. I was working and busy in the morning and that made it pretty easy. What the IFers call appetite correction kind of comes and goes. But the reduced aches and pains seem to be consistent-- my husband is feeling so much better-- and I am fancying that my perimenopausal brain is connecting a bit better. Placebo or not, I'm thrilled with it-- I care more about that than weight loss!

My brother mentioned that he'd crossed the 6.5 line on his A1C. He went low carb for 3 months and lost 20 pounds and got his A1C down to 5.8 without medication. I am so pleased for him. I didn't realize his BMI is in the forties even after his weight loss. And he's not, so far as I can tell, a big binge eater or one of those guys who's always munching on pork rinds. I have been hinting broadly about TR eating and maybe he'll watch some Fung videos.

It's funny, my dad and his brother looked kind of similar as vaguely plump young men in the early sixties-- they married women with different eating/cooking styles. My aunt was more of a regular-meals, no snacking slight French Canadian person. My mom ate more erratically because cooking annoyed her (cooking for my dad would annoy anyone lol) and she was always trying to lose weight. Plus my dad would not eat anything besides about six foods, and people think I'm kidding about that, but I'm not Both my dad and my uncle are lifelong exercisers and my dad has meditated for forty years. My dad outweighs my uncle by 70-80 lbs and they are not tall men. And my dad really doesn't eat much. There was just something different going on between them and I'm going to guess it has something to do with eating frequency and insulin regulation.

I am torn about the low carb thing. Personally I hate it and I'm not convinced it's necessary or even in the long run optimal, if your body chemistry is running like it should. But for the highly insulin resistant person with high blood sugar, I am really more reconciled to that than eating ad libitum. (Can you tell I've been reading diet studies?) Anyway, I get frustrated sometimes about not dropping further, but (a) there is definite room for improvement in my food choices and (b) my BMI of 29/30 could be worse given my family history.

On a FB group for intermittent fasters (or time restricted eaters), someone noted with dismay that Valter Longo of Fasting Mimetic Diet fame had come out firmly against skipping breakfast. I followed the link with interest. His objection are the many studies which show that skipping breakfast is Bad. There was one that tried to adjust for the other behaviors typically associated with breakfast skipping (smoking, snacking, not exercising, staying up too late, what have you) and found that skipping bf is Still Bad. But I'm thinking, that's a LOT of adjustments. Can you really do all that reliably with number splicing? I'm not convinced that 3 meals is a magic number. (Realizing I'm saying this on the No S board. But in my heart of hearts I think 2 meals can be perfectly healthy. I don't think the science is all in place yet.) Longo also says that periods of fasting longer than 12-13 hours are associated with gallstones, so, for those of you who still have a gallbladder, take note I guess. I would be more swayed by this, but I am feeling so much better with 16:8 time restricted eating, I am not interested in changing back. I do have breakfast at 10 because I am pretty persuaded by the stuff on circadian rhythm and Satchin Panda's fascinating work. Plus I am hungry by then. I am trying to get us all fed during daylight hours, not easy to do in winter. Still trying to stick with 10, 2 and 6. I believe it's really helpful to teach your body when it can expect and rely on food, and I don't do this super well, apart from the 10 and 6 limits.

Some other interesting bits from the Longo podcast:

1. High fat low carb ketogenic diets, as embraced by Dr Fung, do not apparently do well by mice. The mice look good for a bit and then go right downhill. Not an eating pattern found readily in nature.

2. Animal protein is not such a great idea. He likes olive oil, octopus (!!!), nuts, legumes, veggies. So I'll just rush right out for a plate of octopus pasta with green beans <G>

All this is somewhat academic because I am quite wide of the ideal mark here. I ate a lot of pastry in NYC last weekend and I am trying to persuade my body that no, you don't need sugar all the time, you'll be fine. Trying to focus on what I want to add (nice freggies, legumes, whole grains) versus what I don't want to be eating. I had a snack today at four which is a bit ridiculous when I ate lunch at 2 and dinner was at 6. At least my weight, high as it is, has stayed the same-- I do think those 16 hours fasted are protective. Putting my money on Dr Panda versus Dr Longo for that one

Interesting because when I was on my Longo kick, I read that he ate two meals a day, breakfast and dinner. Then a couple of days ago, I saw something that said he ate only once a day. Given what you said, it seems scenario 1 is more likely.

I know his take on protein. I've seen reviews on his book, just recently out in English, and it sounds like he's promoting veganism. Funny, because I've also seen a picture of him with a really old guy in Italy whom I'm pretty sure comes from a community that is not vegan. I mean, why do these people have to be so drastic? Swaying from keto to vegan? As Reinhard said, "The forbidden foods diets are patent nonsense. They contradict one another, go in and out of fashion every ten years, and never seem to gather any serious scientific support." I think what he may have meant is no serious scientific consensus. I have to admit I lean more towards Longo these days than Fung. At least Longo sounds respectful and it isn't as if he started out tryihg to prove that meat is bad. It was just the way the data shook out.

Fung did some interesting detective work, too, but is, IMHO, condescending at times, and I believe not even accurate. I'd love to see him prove that the majority of his patients lost weight without cutting calories, even though he is very snotty about saying that calories in/calories out doesn't "work." Good Lord, if you have people doing 24- and 36-hour fasts a week, and sticking to 3 meals a day of non-junk food the rest of the time (he said at one point that that is rule number 1- no snacking), I doubt very much they will not be eating a lot fewer calories than they used to. Plus that his patients are in serious trouble by the time they get to him. Their incentive is darn high. I'm glad that he has success with about 50% of them after they had put their faith in the status quo and lost out.

I'm banking on Longo's finding that people who do a fast mimicking diet on a consistent basis accrue changes that stick, even if they don't eat ideally, whatever that is, in between. Then I can ricochet back and forth as the mood strikes.

I hope you brought all this up to foster discussion! Otherwise, I'm way out of line.

Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 9 years & counting
Age 65
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

Oolala, did you read the Obesity Code? The science is spot on imo. The thing about not snacking is because the constant snacking is what causes insulin resistance which in turn cause obesity and diabetes. Are bodies are designed to handle periods of fasting. Thereâ€™s nothing harmful about it.

He does warn about making sure you get enough calories when youâ€™re feasting. This is not meant to be a low calorie diet. We know low calorie diets donâ€™t work in the long run because the body compensated by lower energy output. Fasting increases metabolism because once youâ€™re burning fat , it realizes the body has plenty of fuel , and thereâ€™s no need to decrease output.

Itâ€™s fine if you donâ€™t want to fast but itâ€™s helped so many people so itâ€™s a good option. We have many. people on our fb group that have lost significant amounts of weight and happily maintained it for years. I think itâ€™s the natural extension of NoS for those of us that needed something more powerful. How wonderful for you that NoS is enough.

Last edited by lpearlmom on Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

I have read it, as well as having viewed multiple youtube videos. It is the nature of such books to make their case, as it is the nature of the intellectual to develop and promote his/her perspective. Longo's science is also very good. So is Guyenet's, not a promoter of fasting, but a serious researcher. So is Mark Mattson's. I'm glad Fung has been able to help a good number of this patients-but he has his failures, too. Diet books rarely reveal the failures. We just have to do our best to pick our way through them and hope we come out the other side without having set ourselves back. I'm very glad to have No S as my core. For now, a version of Longo's FMD done at the change of seasons is my only formal IF (after a year and a half of trying more consistent protocols). I don't say I might not drift back, but I'll be cautious.

Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 9 years & counting
Age 65
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

Hey all, I feel bad if I came across as "the science says this," when of course it's anything but settled. It never is settled, right? Anyway, what you can actually get done is far more important than your theory. A lot of these results are 30% better this or 40% less chance of that. But if your odds of this or that are not high in the first place, 1 in 3000 versus 1 in 4000 is not a compelling reason to change a practice that does well by you in other respects. Personally I love my 8 hour window and even the thought of changing it to 10-- neither DH or I want to do it. We feel so much better this way. And that's really interesting because we adore food and eating and you'd think we'd be ready to drop it with a glad cry.

I do keep reading because even if I hear something that doesn't sound right or does not appeal, I can look at the reasoning behind it and see if I think it makes sense. I haven't seen anything yet that makes me feel I need to eat breakfast when I get up at 6:30. What does strike me is that I lose track of the forest for the trees. I am all about the autophagy and better memory, and yet somehow I keep passing over the concept that EXERCISE IS SUPER HELPFUL FOR THESE. Just blow right past it every time.

Anyway, I'm just reporting on my little squirrelly nuts I've collected on the net. I was feeling a little worried because I think I misreported a bit from Valter Longo-- I believe he was referring to the high meat, high butter ketogenic diets, not necessarily the 10% protein ones. I don't think anyone here is embracing the ketogenic diet, but I was anxious in case I misrepresented what was mentioned in the podcast. Fung does promote a moderate protein diet I believe. I am really buying his insulin theory at this point-- I don't think it's whole enchilada, but I think it may be a major reason why the French Don't Get Fat & why No S works.

Did a ten minute kettlebell workout this morning, which may explain why I feel so good tonight. I curled up under my afghan by the fire near my daughter, and I just feel so good. There are two things that make my body feel like that-- weights being one LOL.

Did not do perfectly avoiding snacks. Fig newton and a piece of fancy chocolate at 4. The 16:8 seems to make avoiding snacks in the window a little rockier for me, but I am so happy with the improvement in digestion/body aches that I am going to keep that framework. I'm optimistic

Still working from the premise of what do I want to add, versus what do I want to avoid. Going for more whole and plant based foods.

I should get with it and lose at least twenty pounds. That's the downside of being an optimist-- I'm basically pretty happy with the status quo. Note to self about the things I am willing to do:

1. Eat mostly whole, plant based foods except for 70% chocolate and maybe a nice sweetened coffee with milk once a day.

2. One plate per meal for real, no virtual plating. Try it and see if I can feel good on it.

3. Go easy on S days, sticking to the 3 meal structure. This I think I'm pretty good about? My S days don't look that different from my N days.

BTW, I limit my discussion of IF to very few people,and really try to keep it D &L on Reinhard's site. I chimed in here only because it was already being discussed. I know this site is open, so anyone might come and see my thoughts, but they would have to come here. I hope everyone will keep our discussion confidential. I meant it only for our private conversation.

Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 9 years & counting
Age 65
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

Yupper, I think we are all on board with this being a NoS site. But I'm so glad time restricted eating was mentioned here, because I am (for now at least) free of chronic pain & hot flashes, and it was a modest adjustment for somebody already accustomed to No S. The discussion might be helpful for other achy midlifers to follow up if they choose.

So glad you're getting some relief from your aches and pains. IF is so great for inflammatory issues. Good for you for trying the Hra hachi bu. I have trouble stopping till I'm pretty full although I rarely eat to stuffed anymore thanks to my NoS training. I don't count calories but sometimes I'll do a mental calculation of how much I ate just out of curiosity and it consistently comes to about 1500 calories so I think I'm doing okay.

I certainly think the time restrcted eating rather than the calorie limit focus is a more reasonable way to help people cut down their eating more pleasantly, since it doesn't yank their cherished foods away prematurely! No S is just the first tier in that, and was all most people needed for a long time. I believe Fung said somewhere that 3 meals with no snacking was actually rule number one. His protocol is mostly either 24- and 36- hour fasts and three meals in between, or at least according to the chart I remember from his book. I'm sure he prescribes variations for his patients.

Linda, may I ask how long a window that amount of food is spread out over? It sounds like you vary it on weekends. Sounds like a nice safety valve.

Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 9 years & counting
Age 65
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

Sure. I do a 2 hr window during the week and a 5 hr window on the weekends. Last Saturday I did an eight hour window because we were staying with my mil. Itâ€™s flexible. I try to do a longer fast of about 30 hrs once a month. Nothing drastic.

Just read "The Good Gut" but two Stanford microbiologists. Rather hair raising to consider the influence our intestinal tenants have-- not just on digestion, but anxiety and cognition. Yikes. Note to self: more yogurt, fruit, veg, seed, and whole grains. Sending out an all points bulletin to the kids on Slack.

Feeling pretty good, doing semi-okay on No-S. I keep going round in circles-- Should I (assorted dietary overhauls)-- and then I keep coming back around to Eat Food, Mostly Plants, Not Too Much, 3 times a day within an 8 hour window. Current focus is on whole-er foods and not getting too full.

relatively easy to adopt:
-- overnight fast of 15-16 hours (awesome for hot flashes/aches and pains)
-- adding "gut food" every meal. I actually quite like that stuff, thanks to my hippie mother. I was not such a good mother to my kids that way, alas.

little harder
-- not snacking between meals. It's not that this is so hard (it isn't), but with the long fast I am a little loose with it. Definitely virtual plating. Should tighten that up, but I am more held back by

hardest
-- exercise every day
-- sweets

The one I can't cut myself slack on is the exercise. I am all about autophagy. Sleep (good at that!), overnight fasting, and exercise all help with that. I am working very part time this year and there is just no excuse. I had a mini epiphany the other day that I would feel more worthy of respect (not that I feel disrespected, but still) if I just turned out and did it without a lot of fuss. And it feels great when I do. So no quarter on that one. Swam/waterjogged yesterday (whatever method to cross the pool for 1/2 hour-- I'm not proud.)

Sweets-- I am trying to follow a model of less than 200 calories a day of desserty things. I enjoy them so much, and I want to move away a bit from the S day/cheat day model which might be better for weight loss, but isn't so good from a head perspective for me. Anyway, this is not optimal but I feel like my focus is better put on the exercise and being good about plating. If only the other parts were as easy as the overnight fast

I know this may sound penny ante, but I've been getting a kick out of using the Official One Minute Workout site to get streaks of exercise days in. I had gotten to the point where I was extending the session by doing extra moves on my own for several more minutes until my injury 2/7. Walking was/is separate. Fracturing a metatarsal gave me a bogus excuse to do the minimum, but it still feels better than not doing anything. I have done the minute at 11:30 p.m. I wouldn't do anything else that late. I'm using the March thread to record it with icons rather than using Habitcal. (I've never consistently done that kind of brief recording; it's useful. How about that. )

Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 9 years & counting
Age 65
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

Awesome, Oolala. I love the just-a-bit approach-- I have a book about it, and I can't remember the name (change of life brain). I do one Sun Salutation a day. Just one, but it makes a difference.

So-- A solid A for exercise this week. A little off on the 16 hour fasting window b/c of Daylight Savings, but coming back into line. Still eating too much at meals, getting over full most of the time & annoyed about it. Maybe the exercise will help offset the excess. One can hope. When I was a dewy youngster, I maintained a BMI of 20 by eating 4 things at breakfast, three at lunch, two at dinner with no snacking. Sort of aghast at the idea now but really, what's so dreadful about it?

I posted this article on the resource thread under general discussion:

Doing a Sun Salutation every day is great, and low impact. After retiring I switched over to the Five Tibetan Rites first thing in the morning, which has some similarities to the SS's. The great thing about both routines is that you can add to the level of intensity as you progress and the cost is ridiculously low to implement.

I am job hunting and things are not going according to my expectation-- I don't think my expectations were unreasonable, but things don't always work out the way you want. I am 51 so that complicates things-- I'm not in a particularly youth oriented line of work, but still. It's been a small psychic wound which sort of bleeds into other things. I get into a space like, "My husband is doing NoS/16:8 and he looks hot and he makes a nice living and he's tall and kind and SOMEONE IS GOING TO STEAL HIM OUT FROM UNDER ME." Like that. Is this helpful? Not so much.

I've been working out a few times a week and basically compliant with NoS on a basically 16:8 schedule, except I have sweets every day because I am probably addicted-- there's a theory that sugar is kind of like alcohol for the liver, okay in small amounts, and I have to struggle to keep the amounts small just like a drinker has to struggle.

I have been feeling threatened/insecure, and that means having to leave my snuggly kumbaya space where everything's okay, and go to the sterner place where it's put-up-or-shut-up. Which is not my favorite place. But sometimes you have to go there.

I put a spot to track food for a week in my beloved bullet journal so I can see how much self-deception is going on. DH is suggesting sort of a light breakfast/snack at 10, then a bigger lunch and a lighter dinner. I would like to try eating just protein/veg at night but have a hard time pulling this off.

So I got the call that I had been worried about, so I am much happier. The next step in that process is not until May, so I'm hoping that I can kick up my heels a little bit between now and then. My insecurity has receded for now, but I don't want to get too comfortable, if that makes sense-- one foot in "put up or shut up" territory is a good thing.

Been keeping a page in my bullet journal about what I'm eating, because I suspect I'm eating more sweets and extras than I like to think:)

Glad to hear you got a call if it was job related. I've known the fun of looking for a new job in middle age, happened to me twice. One company bought out and moved to Mexico and the other relocated to Tennessee, which to the wife was only slightly closer than Mexico.

LOL! Tennessee is pretty far! One of the nice parts of retirement, I'm sure-- not having to worry about that anymore! Thanks for the good wishes

So I am intrigued by a new podcast (Cut the Fat by Ray Hinish) I ran into yesterday. I have read (as many of us have) *a lot* on weight loss science. So I when I run into someone who checks my boxes and has some new things to say I am all ears.

His thoughts-- mostly not dramatically new, but putting the emphasis in a way that made sense to me--

Start with exercise, which is the fastest way to get insulin resistance in check, especially resistance training.
Don't go crazy with running. Walking, he says, does not seem to trigger the eat-more compensatory loop. (No fear LOL).
Focus on getting healthy. Focus on behavior, because weight loss is an ugly science (so true) and results vary. You can't control the scale but you can control behavior which is a very NoS idea, isn't it? Work through modest, consistent changes.
Address the hormonal underpinnings of adiposity-- exercise and whole foods for insulin resistance, and the familiar advice to manage stress and schedule enough sleep. He did mention that drinking lots of water can help with lowering blood levels of cortisol, which was new to me.

He told a story about painstakingly achieving a blackbelt and realizing that he wasn't going to learn new ninja stuff-- he was just expected to be very, very good at the basics he'd learned before.

I'm already pretty good about not snacking, which I can verify because I have 4 whole days of food diary LOL. I know I often overeat at meals, and I eat a lot of sugar even when I fancy I'm not (in some denial there). I have been better about eating "Gut Food" (rainbow salad!) and I definitely feel better when I do.

So my small changes for now...

keep up the long overnight fast
keep up the gut food every meal
daily walking, zumba, swimming, or weight training
sweets at lunch in small amounts
bready things in single servings
(The last two mainly so I don't turn into the walking dead after lunch. Weight loss is slow. Not feeling awful is immediate.)

â€œWeight loss is slow. Not feeling awful is immediate.â€ Love this!!! This is exactly how I feel about No S! Going back up your thread to read more now. ðŸ˜ŠðŸ˜ŠðŸ˜Š

43 years old. 5â€™6â€. Long time vegetarian.
Vanilla No S.
Starting Weight: 269 (17 July 2017)
Current Weight: 228 (14 August 2018)
41 pounds lost so far
Goal Weight: Wherever my weight eventually settles on No S.

Hi Larkspur,
Thanks for your very interesting posts! That made for sobering reading, the insights of Ray Hinish. Like Crystal quoted, the thing about not being able to control the scale is certainly true for me now Iâ€™m over 50. This has reminded me of my original promise to myself, to do No S whether I lost weight or not. I couldnâ€™t carry on with my old bargain -ie. â€˜I will eat healthily as long as it makes me lose weight.â€

With No S, my eating isnâ€™t perfect, but I have a better balance between madness and good sense.

Thatâ€™s a fascinating thing, about water lowering levels of cortisol in the blood! Iâ€™m a terrible water drinker, and a stress-Head. Could there be a link?

Ate well yesterday, a little off the rails today. I had to spend a morning with one of those people who manages to very quickly get across the idea that everything you do and are is wrong. I have been lucky to work with mostly lovely people, but my line of work does attract a certain subset who embrace the correcting and disapproving role. It really rattled me, which made me feel worse-- why should I get so worked up over what this wretched woman thinks? Because I'm job hunting, that's why! Anyway I came home and ate lunch on auto pilot, so it's good the habits are fairly baked in by now and I didn't go too far off the rails. I ordered milkshakes for my MIL and my daughter after her doctor appointment and I thought about getting one, but I'm so trained out of it, I didn't. So I probably ate too much lunch and dinner but I didn't snack

I hope to report in that I worked out tomorrow! Life is full of uncertainty and challenge, everybody's life is, and I need help not letting my little boat tip over for ordinary waves.