Guys you gota admit the Legion fed more and more power to the "Ultralisk". Let the Ultralisk off leash or make a mistake and the Ultralisk shall break you!
Shear Strength Old Horde was way superior. Unity and a bit of smartness was the ONLY problem.

They weren't, though. Check out the WC3 expansion blood elf campaign - the final mission has you fighting against Legion forces on Outland. The old Horde forces there are cannon-fodder - the lowest ranks standing between Illidan's forces and the Legion forces. That's a glimpse at what the future of the Horde would have been under the rule of the Legion.

At best the Horde would've wound up as some kind of low- to mid-level warrior demon, like the Mo'arg warriors (Felguard). Rank and file subservient to the higher classes like the eredar.

The Old Horde pretty much went tits up simply because of the Legion underestimating the orcs morality and a few individuals intelligence, and the strength and will of the Alliance. If they policed the Horde better i.e killing orcs like Doomhammer and Durotan and keeping an eye on their battles The Horde would still be under their sway. The Legion's arrogance caused them and by extension The Horde to ultimately fail. But as strong as the Horde were/are they are no match for The Legion.

---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 08:32 PM ----------

Originally Posted by keksplace

Guys you gota admit the Legion fed more and more power to the "Ultralisk". Let the Ultralisk off leash or make a mistake and the Ultralisk shall break you!
Shear Strength Old Horde was way superior. Unity and a bit of smartness was the ONLY problem.

Superior to the legion? Lol na, they were their little puppets that should indicate enough, The Legion is practically limitless in number and most of the Horde's power was simply borrowed from the demon lords. They were the masters which controlled their power also the intelligence and strength of orc leadership wasn't a candle light to Kil'jeaden.

They almost wiped out all humans, dwarves and elves. (well, the elves that were known at that time)
Yes, they got very close to ultimate victory and thus they have been a bigger threat than the Scourge.

He's right.

Burning Legion almost wiped out both the EK and Kalimdor races save for Malfurion and the world tree. Isn't that a bigger threat than the Old Horde?

They were chaotic and this was their downfall. They'd end up destroying themselves in endless fights for dominance anyway. Now, the Scourge didn't have that power, they had total obedience, but the only reason they failed was Arthas's softness deep inside.

"A NAME IS A CLOAK OF LETTERS THROWN UPON A MAN. IT MEANS NOTHING." - Transcendent One, Planescape: Torment.

You talk about the old horde like they were some unstoppable killing machine, but after SW they didnt win a single engagement of any kind. Every single time the orcs and the alliance clashed, the alliance won. The only thing victory that you could claim that the old horde had was tricking half the alliance at Quel'thalas while the rest of the horde went to destroy Capital City.

The Old Horde were a powerful force, true enough. But they were far far from unstoppable and in the end, failed in every single way. They didnt wipe out the dreanei and kill velan, they didnt find a new home on Azaroth, they didnt free sargaras, they didnt destroy any race on azaroth.

Was the old horde pretty damn strong? Yes
Were they coordinated .....to a point.
Could they have won the war?....honestly it's iffy they started to lose the moment gul'dan betrayed them and left with his entrie group of orcs they were meant to be part of a surprise attack. IF that went according to plan maybe the horde would have won and after that they probably would have done a few things.

First destroy any remaining opposing forces.
Then pillage and force mate with the remaining survivors .
Since it is a big place they either would've started infighting again, finally become like thrills horde but waaaaaaaay more violent and thirst for blood and conquer and probably gone to the world rinse and repeating. Or they would have split into seperate clans and basically repeated the first human kingdoms and slowly rebuilt after war.

Would they ever go against their "masters"? It would take a huge movement. Thy would need to find the source of fell magic illidan found in bt so they wouldn't need to be defendant in them or they could have gone and did countless things like megthardian and locked up demons of vast power ...but in reality I don't think they would be strong enough to ever beat the legion...

And that is with every scenario for them going perfect in the first two wars

---------- Post added 2012-11-21 at 01:43 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Haven

They were chaotic and this was their downfall. They'd end up destroying themselves in endless fights for dominance anyway. Now, the Scourge didn't have that power, they had total obedience, but the only reason they failed was Arthas's softness deep inside.

I'm pretty sure after you kill your whole family you don't have a softness anymore...he was constantly begged by spirits to stop be he never did...dude kinda became ruthless ...and that little shard of showing he was controlled the whole time at the end of ICC? Well ..in hindsight the ending could've been a lot more happy if ya know...tirion didn't fucking kill his heart...(which btw that quest and what happened in ICC seem to contradict one another)

well the Legion has burned hundreds if not thousands of worlds........

---------- Post added 2012-11-21 at 10:54 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Haven

They were chaotic and this was their downfall. They'd end up destroying themselves in endless fights for dominance anyway. Now, the Scourge didn't have that power, they had total obedience, but the only reason they failed was Arthas's softness deep inside.

hm?

If you meant the Scourge of before, it was because Ner'zhul wanted to free himself, which lead to him turning against his demon masters.

As for the Scourge of Wrath, there was no human side of Arthas "holding the Scourge at bay", because holding back the Scourge was part of his whole master plan

Last edited by Dreknar20; 2012-11-21 at 10:56 AM.

We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

Guys you far underestimate the might of Old Horde. And Legion is way too overrated, they are strong but overrated and im not sure why!
Im just gona give you a humble example, if we look at the facts.

We get whom you do want, we get Broxigar the Red, a warrior in every sense. He crushed a montain of demons ALONE, now just Imagine Fel Broxigar, much stronger, much bigger in muscles, and even more rage.
I already gave the example of Grom.

And finnaly Gul'dan, if you can tell me WHY was Kil'jaedan stronger than Gul'dan, and i highlight WHY. You guys just tell me that Kil'jaedan is far stronger and thats it.
Just because Kil'jaedan tought a few things to Gul'dan (the coach is almost never better than the champion). Just because he manipulated him? Manoroth manipulated a being far greater than him, Grom Hellscream and we saw what happened. again imagine Fel Grom Hellscream.

I dont want you guys to tell me that Kil'jaedan is stronger than Gul'dan, i want you to tell me WHY!
We saw numerous apocalyptic acts done by Gul'dan. I can mention them and this is the last time (destroying an entire race along with their city and twisting their souls, creating the first death knights, creating the Portals, raising a volcano and shattering an entire PLANET FOR GODS SAKE, raising Tomb of Sargeras from the bottom of the ocean, corrupting and twisting Ragnoros equivalent on Draenor, and many others i cant recall).

Now im sure you gona still tell me that Kil'jaedan is stronger but yet you wont tell me WHY! Name 2 apocalyptic acts he has done, not 10 like Gul'dan.

Kil'jaedan or Archimonde strength came from their army, Gul'dan's strength comes from himself ALONE! Give him an army like the Old Horde (loyal to him) and he would crush BL just like that.

Burning Legion almost wiped out both the EK and Kalimdor races save for Malfurion and the world tree. Isn't that a bigger threat than the Old Horde?

Burning Legion didn't do shit in EK. That was the Scourge. And it was just the northern part, not the entire continent.

And the War of the Ancients was mostly just Night Elf casualties with a few Tauren and Earthen thrown in. And although the threat was great, they didn't cause too much damage. And the Well of Eternity imploding wasn't really their doing.

So no, the Burning Legion isn't as awesome as you make it sound.

---------- Post added 2012-11-21 at 03:51 PM ----------

Originally Posted by keksplace

Kil'jaedan or Archimonde strength came from their army, Gul'dan's strength comes from himself ALONE! Give him an army like the Old Horde (loyal to him) and he would crush BL just like that.

I'm pretty sure Archimonde was stronger than Kil'jaeden, although that could have been retconned already. But Archimonde used to be the warrior while Kil'jaeden was simply the manipulator, the deceiver. In that sense, we can assume that Kil'jaeden isn't even that strong and thus not as much of a threat.

If you read the book where Ronin and the red Dragon travel into the past to witness the first war with the legion you would recognise that the legion is the single most destructive force to ever land on Azeroth. Their passing left a blight upon the land, killing off all forms of life in its path including plants much like a scourge blight. Azeroth is the first planet to ever stand against a legion invasion and the Old Ones are really looking forward to their return because if you can stamp out life on Azeroth they will be released from their prisons inside Azeroth.

Heck even Deathwing came close to causing the final cataclysm to end life on the planet. The old horde in comparison is incapable of comparable damage as the legion and deathwing. The original horde was just fodder.

It's not like any of this matters, a hero or race is only as strong as Blizzard decides to make them. I mean really there was no way Grom should have been able to do shit to Mannoroth, but it'd be pretty stupid to have him die and the whole story of removing the taint still being there. But you know, a huge pitlord with a huge weapon and probably plenty of battle experience obviously wouldn't have been able to stop one orc charging at him and stabbing him with an axe.

You really think the burning legion would have created fel orcs if they thought they wouldn't be able to deal with them later?

You really think the burning legion would have created fel orcs if they thought they wouldn't be able to deal with them later?

I think they did enpower the orcs way too much in desperation to kill off Draeneis. I think they were very close in making the mistake of creating a far worse enemy.
I dont think fel orcs were so loyal to Legion, I dont think Gul'dan was so loyal to his "dark master" (Sargeras).
I think after Alliance demise the Orcs couldnt find anyone else to break other than the Legion itself (the very nature of fel orcs would push them that way).
I think Gul'dan was waiting to accumulate enough power (through relics and other stuff), for in the end to make an attempt at the very "dark master".

I'm pretty sure Archimonde was stronger than Kil'jaeden, although that could have been retconned already. But Archimonde used to be the warrior while Kil'jaeden was simply the manipulator, the deceiver. In that sense, we can assume that Kil'jaeden isn't even that strong and thus not as much of a threat.

Kil'Jaeden is ranked above Archimonde, according to Wowpedia.

As for Keksplace's Gul'dan rant...
-Sargeras has made Kil'Jaeden his right hand man, while he threw Gul'dan away like a pawn. Gul'dan was completely expendable to him.
-Most of Gul'dan's achievements you listed were the results of rituals involving other warlocks. He may have lead them, but he needed their power.
-The planet was shattered by Ner'zhul. Yes, he needed the Skull of Gul'dan, but he also needed three other artifacts (the Book of Medivh, the Eye of Dalaran and the Jeweled Scepter of Sargeras).

While you are correct about there being very little information about Kil'Jaedon's power, other than his intelligence and illusions, there has been quite a few examples of Archimonde's power. Feel free to look up War of the Ancients, or what he did to Dalaran.

---------- Post added 2012-11-21 at 07:21 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Verdugo

Also, Gul'dan was zerg rushed by lowly demons. How could he possibly hope to fight legion.

From their description, they may not have even been demons, just Naga.

Kil'Jaeden is ranked above Archimonde, according to Wowpedia.
While you are correct about there being very little information about Kil'Jaedon's power, other than his intelligence and illusions, there has been quite a few examples of Archimonde's power. Feel free to look up War of the Ancients, or what he did to Dalaran.[COLOR="red"]

What Archimonde did to Dalaran pales before this (from wowwiki):
"Gul'dan was also able to wipe out the Sketh'lon arakkoa with a single spell that not only destroyed their camps, but twisted their spirits too. "

Archimonde spell while strong is not as strong as to twist souls, like that of Gul'dan. And theres no mention as to Gul'dan being helped to do this with others help.

You either didnt read exactly what Gul'dan did or you are too stubborn.

What Archimonde did to Dalaran pales before this (from wowwiki):
"Gul'dan was also able to wipe out the Sketh'lon arakkoa with a single spell that not only destroyed their camps, but twisted their spirits too. "

Archimonde spell while strong is not as strong as to twist souls, like that of Gul'dan. And theres no mention as to Gul'dan being helped to do this with others help..

How many arakkoa were there? How strong are they? Dalaran is an entire city filled with some of Azeroth's most powerful mages.