"Securing the border isn’t easy – and although most people would like to see the border made secure, there’s plenty of debate about whether walls, cameras, more border patrol agents or something else is the answer. But can’t we all agree that protecting our border and American citizens is worth the threat of running over a few speckled racer snakes?"

Not too surprising an argument coming from a mouthpiece for The Heritage Foundation. Gee, why do you suppose she decided to go with the speckled racer rather than the ocelot? (Hint: A very popular, conservation-themed festival is held on behalf of the ocelot every year in south TX.)

Too bad she and her kind are winning the day in quite a number of ways with respect to the U.S.' southern border, to the detriment of various threatened or sensitive species and their habitats. It's all just so incredibly stupid, but fear-mongering is a tried and true method for winning in politics: "Our southern border is being overrun by all kinds of unsavory people (= people with skin slightly darker than ours)! Aieee!"

I very much doubt that the author even believes that the laws against offroading really make any long-term difference in the course of our nation. We're talking about a few handfuls of arrests out of millions of people. If we have a border problems, it's going to take far more significant steps to actually address it. Deciding that it would be okay to start wrecking that habitat wouldn't get us any closer to those significant steps - the overall impact would be meaningless.

We don’t need walls, border patrol or fences that distroying the snakes habitat. Americans just need to stop giving free medical care (which is better than war vets receive), free education, free housing, welfare, food stamps, drivers Licenses, and other incentives for foreigners to invade this country. Severely fine and arrest employers that higher those that are illegal to work. Without work or free handouts, invaders will start to self-export. I'm all for legalized immigration as long as we adopt the same policy their country of origin uses, which is a smarter than our policies. http://www.marklevinshow.com/common/pag ... &is_corp=0

for the last 5 years, more Americans have moved to Mexico, than the number of Mexicans that have moved to the US... why... more jobs/opportunity. Don't worry bout keeping the Mexicans out... worry bout keeping Americans here...

Easy to to keep Companys from moving out, stop taxing the $hit out of them.
Also Jim, the Americans moving to Mexico are doing it legally. An American jumping a border, working, or even in a car accident with a resident will go to JAIL, and go to jail for a long time. For crying out loud, that poor Marine that took a wrong turn, telling the border guard about having weapons in his car, is still in jail. A US citizen cant even legally hold a job in Mexico. So those citizens moving down there are what? vacationing.

To bad the American moving out have money and the Mexicans invaders have your money. Average Califorian looses nearly $3000 dollars to support Illegals border jumpers ANNUALLY! To bad this money doesnt go to the legal children of California for better teachers, transportation, air conditioning, school equipment, and yada-yada-yada...

My point was/is... when people from other countries DON'T want to come here, legally or otherwise, and are in fact leaving, along with American's... there's a problem. that's all I really care to say on the subject. Political discussions always leave a bad taste in my mouth... cyaaaaaaaaaaaa.
BTW... where did your 2 Inyo co. Mt Garter records come from? jim

Okay this is just crazy talk; we are currently experiencing a border plague like non other... Who the F, is leaving. You’re the person im posting the Radio link for… hello wake up to current events.......

You're free to believe whatever and whoever you like...Limbaugh, Hannity and now this ultra right-wing alarmist. I'll stick to more recognized and creditable sources, with a bit more 'Ethos.
But... don't expect reasonable people to take the claptrap those guys put out seriously...

(Among other things, illegal immigrants don't qualify for virtually anything you listed. And the dude who supposedly took the "wrong turn" had already been to TJ earlier that day and booked a hotel for the night...I thought you would have known by now that that story already got blown open.)

With all do respect Jonathan, the truth can be shocking to some even revolting. To find the truth takes effort and will not be found by watching the diluted garbage of CNN and other bias Medias, which some among us enjoy. All the facts, I stated are based on truth and a quick internet search, which takes effort, will explain. Going to jail after a car accident is true as well, the word of the citizen takes precedence over that of the foreigner and a tourist will go to jail until damages are paid in full or resolved. Below is not a formal website, but it has a clear list of rewards bestowed to aliens which someone seeking the truth might wish to follow up on.

If we let them through the normal gates, we wouldn't have to worry about them tramping habitat.

Of course, if we let them come in legally, then we'd have to pay them legal wages and give them legal benefits, and their employers wouldn't have nearly as many convenient threats to hang over their heads. Too many people benefit right now from letting the labor get through, but not through the legal means.

p.s. - I'm really confused by your last link. You think that it would be a good thing if the US government was more like a dictatorship/totalitarian government? I would think that it's a GOOD thing that our laws look nothing like North Korea/Iran/Cuba.

but I should add, again, that the link is full of lies. Illegal immigrants aren't eligible for half the stuff on that list, and the other half (the right to carry your flag? documents printed in your language?) are just silly to someone specially attribute to illegal immigrants.

With all do respect Jonathan, the truth can be shocking to some even revolting. To find the truth takes effort and will not be found by watching the diluted garbage of CNN and other bias Medias, which some among us enjoy. All the facts, I stated are based on truth and a quick internet search, which takes effort, will explain. Going to jail after a car accident is true as well, the word of the citizen takes precedence over that of the foreigner and a tourist will go to jail until damages are paid in full or resolved. Below is not a formal website, but it has a clear list of rewards bestowed to aliens which someone seeking the truth might wish to follow up on.

The silly flag one is #12. #10 (a lobbyist?) and #11 (public documents printed in your own language?) are just silly too - those are general benefits that you can't selectively apply to citizens only. #6 (credit cards) and #1 (a job) are both private industry issues.

#3, #4, #5, and #7, are all false. People who chose to immigrate here illegally are not eligible for those benefits.

So all you have left are #8 (education) and #9 (health care).

Everyone who goes to an emergency room can get treated, because people with a moral compass in this country have a small problem with tossing people out on the street to die. (Or holding up emergency medical care for citizens who don't happen to have the right papers on them at that moment.) But its not free - they're charged the same as everyone else. And they can duck the loan collectors the same as everyone else.

As far as free education goes, as long as those kids are in the country, you'd think that the country would be a lot better off having a bunch of educated children of immigrants running around than having those kids out of the street, with no education and nothing to do except get into drugs/gangs/who knows what else. I was a science teacher at a school where our Student Body President, one of the best students at the school, was an undocumented immigrant whose family had come here when she was little (she got into Harvard, btw). I think our school was a heck of a lot better off with her than without her - and I think the community was a lot better off with the children of immigrants in school rather than out of school.

I’m done, those interested can do their own fact checking from here. Moreover, please don’t be like my wife by interjecting words or meaning. My words were, they receive “Free.. ..incentives”. I never mentioned SSN in my original post and didnt even read into the prior link i attached, except for the list. But sadly, SSN fraud is so prolific involving illegal Aliens that authority’s turn a blind eye it (http://cis.org/IdentityTheft).

Illegal immigrants can't receive food stamps or welfare benefits. But yes, a legal American citizen can receive those benefits, and they're not disqualified just because one of their family members is not legal.

SSN were on the list you linked. Just like flags. You can tell me to look at a list and then take issue with me when I actually quote the things on it, but it makes you look bad.

p.s. - the link you just provided sneakily switches from "illegal immigrant families" to "immigrant families" in the 4th sentence, so all the "data" they provide after that is for ALL immigrants, not illegal immigrants. Not a single number in that paragraph is actually a statistic about illegal immigrants.

jonathan wrote:
p.s. - the link you just provided sneakily switches from "illegal immigrant families" to "immigrant families" in the 4th sentence, so all the "data" they provide after that is for ALL immigrants, not illegal immigrants. Not a single number in that paragraph is actually a statistic about illegal immigrants.

It's a logical fallacy called 'framing', which is what folks who really want to make a point use, when they don't have a logical leg to stand on...'We the Sheeple' aren't supposed to notice things like that...

It is clear that many Illegal Aliens take advantage of the system on the backs of the American taxpayer. Whether it is food stamps, Welfare, or public housing, all take from the system and burden an already outrages American debt.

If someone chooses to criticize links that I obviously did not write, that is on them. I’m responding to the earlier post, where someone wrote, “virtually every single thing you stated was wrong.” If someone is not satisfied with the links, there are plenty of other articles on the net providing proof that Aliens are taking advantage of America’s compassion.

In one way or another, it is wrong for trespassers to be trampling the breeding grounds of an endangered snake. A discussion about Illegal Immigration could take all day and into next week, and at the end of that week, all we will be doing is agreeing to disagree. Cheers

I knew you would stick you nose into this thread eventually, and yep here you are smelling like an egg to egg things on.

As i said "cheers", even to you Gerry The Egg

However, before i go, I must wish you congrats. Congrats to 'Gerry The Egg', you are the first on my ‘Foe’ List. This means I no longer have to be bored by your posts and, I suggest you do the same. So you can ignore my Superior Wisdom.

Fieldnotes wrote:I knew you would stick you nose into this thread eventually...

Uh-huh, if by "eventually" you mean "first to respond after the original post" - and well before you, of course.

Just how low is your level of reading comprehension, anyway? Or maybe more accurately, just how chemically impaired are you when you get on here and post this garbage?

Fieldnotes wrote:However, before i go, I must wish you congrats. Congrats to 'Gerry The Egg', you are the first on my ‘Foe’ List. This means I no longer have to be bored by your posts and, I suggest you do the same. So you can ignore my Superior Wisdom.

= "It's fine for me to use these message boards to spew my paranoid fear and hatred on everyone, but not for you to call me on it!"

Sorry, Fieldnuts, but splitting everyone into friends and foes - not to mention putting on blinders to try to avoid seeing what you don't want to see - fits your worldview perfectly, but not mine at all.

I think illegal immigration does cause a significant drain on the system, but I sympathize with the immigrants and I'm not sure legally what should be done about it. I am more concerned about military/prison industrial complex, corporate welfare, corporate tax dodging and outsourcing of labor without commensurate tariffs and/or tax penalties. I think these things cause greater problems that illegal immigration but they are all things that need to be dealt with.

Aaron wrote:I think illegal immigration does cause a significant drain on the system, but I sympathize with the immigrants and I'm not sure legally what should be done about it. I am more concerned about military/prison industrial complex, corporate welfare, corporate tax dodging and outsourcing of labor without commensurate tariffs and/or tax penalties. I think these things cause greater problems that illegal immigration but they are all things that need to be dealt with.

Aaron wrote:I think illegal immigration does cause a significant drain on the system, but I sympathize with the immigrants and I'm not sure legally what should be done about it. I am more concerned about military/prison industrial complex, corporate welfare, corporate tax dodging and outsourcing of labor without commensurate tariffs and/or tax penalties. I think these things cause greater problems that illegal immigration but they are all things that need to be dealt with.

Everything has bias. This sentence has bias. Every news source has bias. You cannot ever be 100% objective. So watch all of the news you can, read books, do homework, and check all of the different sources you can, and then at least you can claim to have made an informed decision. Also, there are truths and there are facts; these are different things and should not be confused with one another.

If the problem is undocumented workers coming across our protected lands, putting some species at risk, it seems like the easiest solution is to document them (the workers, not the species). The legal channels of becoming a citizen are difficult. I have a Scottish colleague who is experiencing this pain right now. It should be, in my humble opinion, at least conceptually, an easy process where you pay some small sum to become a citizen, excluding people with criminal histories or other socially unacceptable conditions. The fee would cover the overhead necessary to staff an office that could crank out SSN#s and any other necessary documents for citizenship. If the process of becoming a citizen would be easy, then only those who do not qualify for citizenship would seek the alternative, illegal pathways. Build bridges, not moats. This would take pressure off of the border, and those species in peril.

Yes there would other impacts, economically and otherwise, but nothing can remain static forever.

Let's make sure everyone understands what we're talking about here. Per the American Heritage Dictionary:

bias - A preference or an inclination, especially one that inhibits impartial judgment.

I agree with what you wrote to some extent, cj0000, and that's why I talk about science being based on an attempt to minimize bias (as it's essentially impossible to eliminate it) while obtaining and interpreting information about the natural world. But there are some important distinctions that are totally lost in what you wrote.

First, akin to science, journalism is at it's heart an attempt to minimize bias, in this case in the presentation of information about all kinds of things to other people. News is by and large produced by journalists, and at its best very little bias should be present in it:

Second, not everyone who represents him/herself as a journalist actually is such, and not everything that is presented as news actually is such. There have always been people around who attempt to present opinion - which is rife with bias - as news, who are determined to persuade rather than inform and who are quite willing to dishonestly represent what they're doing in order to be effective at it. What they're actually doing is producing and disseminating propaganda:

propaganda- The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.

Third, as I mentioned, dishonest propaganda has always been around to at least some extent, but a strong case could be made for it being far more prevalent - and perhaps more influential - today than ever before, most especially in terms of American media. And perhaps more than any other entity, Fox News (its very name dishonestly suggesting the corporation is something quite different than it actually is) helped create the current situation. The Heritage Foundation, the source of the bit of garbage we're discussing in this particular thread, is at least somewhat more upfront about what it's doing. Per the organization's website, its...

... mission is to formulate and promote conservative public policies based on the principles of free enterprise, limited government, individual freedom, traditional American values, and a strong national defense.

It's not anywhere near enough for people simply to read/view/listen to a lot. They should apply critical thinking to everything they take in, and they should most definitely be wary of folks spreading propaganda to further their biases under the guise of merely disseminating far less biased news.

Yes, I come at it from the science direction, where the goal is to minimize bias. There are those who try very hard to do this and those that don't seem to care. And then there are those who practice sophistry. Reading a variety of news sources if they all practice sophistry or make no attempt to minimize their bias won't give you an informed decision. I can respect those who don't try to minimize their bias but are upfront about not doing so. I then know where they are coming from. It is important context necessary for better understanding.

I like how you put it when you said

It's not anywhere near enough for people simply to read/view/listen to a lot. They should apply critical thinking to everything they take in...

Unfortunately critical thinking is a skill like any other, and some people have worked to improve it and others have not. This would be a good segue into discussing our educational system, however like Aaron mentioned, there are several other areas in this country that worthy of improvement. This particular thread is probably not the place to discuss them.

Let's make sure everyone understands what we're talking about here. Per the American Heritage Dictionary:

bias - A preference or an inclination, especially one that inhibits impartial judgment.

I agree with what you wrote to some extent, cj0000, and that's why I talk about science being based on an attempt to minimize bias (as it's essentially impossible to eliminate it) while obtaining and interpreting information about the natural world. But there are some important distinctions that are totally lost in what you wrote.

First, akin to science, journalism is at it's heart an attempt to minimize bias, in this case in the presentation of information about all kinds of things to other people. News is by and large produced by journalists, and at its best very little bias should be present in it:

However, a close stepbrother to "bias" is simply "perspective". We all stand in one place. We all have preferences and inclinations on every single subject simply because we are limited humans. No one can ever describe an unbiased perspective of a scene - even describing an empty room would take eternity, because there is so much one could say about the macro-structure and micro-structure of a room.

When we present a story, we only know certain facts - probably a minority of the facts that are actually relevant. We pick and chose a small subset of those facts which we think is important, or which best support our big picture thesis. We subconsciously tone our presentation of those facts to fit the stories we're already built up over our lifetime, that we've been telling ourselves everything should fit into.

That happens in every story we ever tell.

captainjack0000 wrote:I can respect those who don't try to minimize their bias but are upfront about not doing so. I then know where they are coming from. It is important context necessary for better understanding.

captainjack0000 wrote:Every news source has bias. You cannot ever be 100% objective. So watch all of the news you can, read books, do homework, and check all of the different sources you can, and then at least you can claim to have made an informed decision.

captainjack0000 wrote:I like how you put it when you said

It's not anywhere near enough for people simply to read/view/listen to a lot. They should apply critical thinking to everything they take in...

I love those three points. First off, people who are aware of their biases (the limited part of the story they really know, the limited pieces of what they know that they're going to tell, and the preconceived worldview they're going to fit the retelling of their story into) and who can tell people about those biases upfront are both more self-aware and more helpful to learn from than those who think they are "unbiased". Second of all, the way to counteract that simple fact of universal individual bias is to get as many viewpoints from different people with different perspectives and agendas as you can. And finally, you're going to need to apply some critical thinking to sort the good stuff from the bad.

Any worthwhile reader of news really has to think through all three of those things. What are the biases here, how can I get other perspectives on this, and when I've got all the data I reasonably can, what really seems to fit together and what doesn't?

(Of course, some sources are so bad that they're just not worth keeping within the list at all - such as Free Republic, World Net Daily, and every single radio and cable talk show.)

Even our own conformational biases can be overcome, if attention is paid to them... I generally recommend Karl Popper's falsificationist epistemology in which knowledge grows through falsifying, or criticizing, our theories.
According to him, knowledge, especially scientific knowledge, progresses through conjectures (i.e. tentative solutions to problems) that are controlled by criticism, or attempted refutations (including severely critical tests). As he puts it, ‘Criticism of our conjectures is of decisive importance: by bringing out our mistakes it makes us understand the difficulties of the problem which we are trying to solve. This is how we become better acquainted with our problem, and able to propose more mature solutions: the very refutation of a theory ... is always a step forward that takes us nearer to the truth"
some folks though... take it very personally when their theories, opinions, ideas and worldviews are questioned, making them not worth talking to.
Now... I'm going herping.

It sounds as if we're pretty much in agreement, cj0000 and jonathan, even if we're emphasizing different aspects. I'll take a moment more to clarify one thing, though...

I, too, can respect those who don't try to minimize their bias but are upfront about not doing so. But they sacrifice that respect (and then some) if they obscure the difference between their opinions and facts, and in particular if they rely on demonstrably false facts, to promote their cause. There is indeed a difference between honest and dishonest propaganda. As upfront as The Heritage Foundation might be about their mission, they fall far short of that when it comes to their methods.

Oh, and for the record, I believe there are still genuine journalists out there. And they have my deepest sympathy for what's happened to their profession and its reputation in modern America.

Having lived in the Huachuca Mountains close to the Mexican Border for 45 years, border crossers (migrants, mules and coyotes) are a problem
they leave lots of trash, commit lots of crime (mostly on each other) make trails all over that cause erosion and destruction of fragile habitats.
building a wall is not the answer, you build a 30' wall someone will build a 32' ladder!
its our economy which is still the largest by far (10 times that of China and India combined)
and the quality of people (including us) they lack respect, they want instant gratification, and just care about getting what they think is due them.
we need to keep the standards and morals of our fore fathers, to remember we are a nation of mutts.
anyone who comes here to be an American! to better them selves, who want to take advantage of our opportunities to earn a living
I support.
Those that come to abuse our system and stand against the American way are my enemy!
Protect the habitat and nature will do her part, if you want to help the racers put your money up and help buy habitat or conservation easements.
ok i'm off my soap box!
Tomas

Okay, so I just saw this post for the first time and was, quite frankly, appalled at what some of you have to say about illegal immigrants (so much so that I will confess, I stopped reading the posts and just wrote my own). First of all, don't let history repeat itself: America has always hated the latest group of immigrants, be it the Irish, the Chinese, the Japanese, the Mexicans, pretty much everybody. We then forget that everyone except a very small minority in this country are only here because of immigration over the last ~4-500 years.

Also, the media colors illegal immigrants in a very negative light. We act like the people we want here are those who can come legally, but living along the border all my life, I can tell you that the people everyone dislikes the most are the incredibly wealthy, legal Mexican immigrants who look down on everyone here because that's what the culture lets them do in Mexico. That's not all of the legal immigrants by any means, of course, but don't equate legality with desirability in the same way that you should not equate illegality with un-desirability.

Many illegal immigrants here are here to work. Yes, they are stealing our jobs. They are taking our janitorial positions, they are housemaids, they are landscapers, they are migrant workers, they are the holders of many positions that most Americans would never consider taking. They work hard, and yes, they are coming and taking resources from the economy, but they are also contributing to it. They have to eat here. They have to buy clothes. And contrary to popular belief, they don't get crazy benefits from the government.

If you have a problem with them not paying taxes, there is a solution: let them become documented, keep track of the money they make, and let them pay taxes. As for my personal feelings about the wall along the border, I can tell you that it is incredibly stupid. Max Pons, the manager of the Southmost Preserve next to Sabal in Cameron County, tells me that he regularly sees pregnant women scale the wall. It's worthless. It is a waste of money and a detriment to the environment. Furthermore, I consider it un-American; I can recall a very dynamic president once saying "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall."

The real problem is border violence. Largely contained in Mexico (I've never felt unsafe living five miles from a rather violent Mexican border town, Reynosa, my entire life), the violence is of course usually drug-related. I don't want drugs legalized in this country, but I can tell you that the only reason that the cartels have any functions on this side of the border is because Americans are buying their products. America could end at least some of the drug war without fighting in it, if only we citizens would stop buying the drugs and essentially financing the operations of the cartels.

As for trash left in wilderness areas used as border crossings, again, there would be no need for such destruction if we made it easier for those who wanted to escape poverty and violence through hard work to come to this country legally. I've met many illegal immigrants. They're decent people who just want a chance to be normal, middle class Americans, and drew the worse straw for birthplace.

A bit off topic but I personally have no issue with documented workers, but I wonder how many people would flood in if we just let everyone come willy nilly and what the impact would be. It's a very complicated issue and I wonder how other countries are successful in making sure large amounts of immigrants don't cross their borders illegally.