Devil's Advocate: Original DVD Rotted.

If you have a copy of the first _Devil's Advocate_ (Warner DVD #15090),
you might want to check and see if it has rotted yet. Mine was purchased
in December of 1999 and seemed to play well one year ago. However, today
after the layer change, the pixelation on the second layer quickly
became so bad that my player locked up. This title is so notorious for
rotting that I bought the new version a couple of years ago. So far, the
new version still plays perfectly.

The original _Devil's Advocate_ Warner DVD #15090 had a white sticker on
the front of the box as well as a red band on the back of the box which
said the following:

"The large white sculpture of human forms on the wall of John Milton's
penthouse in "Devil's Advocate" is not connected in any way and was not
endorsed by the sculptor Frederick Hart of the Washington National
Cathedral, joint copyright owners of the cathedral sculpture "Ex Nihilo"
in Washington, D.C."

If this disclaimer is not on the box, you are looking at the new
version.

The new _Devil's Advocate_ Warner DVD # 16172 has the Ex Nihilo statue
edited out so that none of the figures are visible. Later, when the
statue begins to move, the new version of the film looks exactly like
the original.

Chapters 1-25 are located on the first layer of the disk and should play
well. It is after the layer change -- at the end of chapter 25 and at
the beginning of chapter 26 -- that a rotted disk will display playback
problems. This brings my total of rotted disks to 5 and ALL of them came
from Warner:

Devil's Advocate (First pressing which cannot be replaced.)

Cabaret (First one rotted, replacement playing well.)

Casablanca -- Original DVD (First one rotted, replacement playing
well.)

Maltese Falcon (First one rotted, replacement playing well.)

My Fair Lady (First one rotted, replacement playing well.)

You might want to check the second layers of the Warner titles listed
above if they are in your collection.

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In article <20030907220818.293$>,
Scot Gardner <> wrote:
>If you have a copy of the first _Devil's Advocate_ (Warner DVD #15090),
>you might want to check and see if it has rotted yet. Mine was purchased
>in December of 1999 and seemed to play well one year ago. However, today
>after the layer change, the pixelation on the second layer quickly
>became so bad that my player locked up. This title is so notorious for
>rotting that I bought the new version a couple of years ago. So far, the
>new version still plays perfectly.
>
>The original _Devil's Advocate_ Warner DVD #15090 had a white sticker on
>the front of the box as well as a red band on the back of the box which
>said the following:
>
>"The large white sculpture of human forms on the wall of John Milton's
>penthouse in "Devil's Advocate" is not connected in any way and was not
>endorsed by the sculptor Frederick Hart of the Washington National
>Cathedral, joint copyright owners of the cathedral sculpture "Ex Nihilo"
>in Washington, D.C."
>
>If this disclaimer is not on the box, you are looking at the new
>version.
>
>The new _Devil's Advocate_ Warner DVD # 16172 has the Ex Nihilo statue
>edited out so that none of the figures are visible. Later, when the
>statue begins to move, the new version of the film looks exactly like
>the original.
>
>Chapters 1-25 are located on the first layer of the disk and should play
>well. It is after the layer change -- at the end of chapter 25 and at
>the beginning of chapter 26 -- that a rotted disk will display playback
>problems. This brings my total of rotted disks to 5 and ALL of them came
>from Warner:
>
> Devil's Advocate (First pressing which cannot be replaced.)
>
> Cabaret (First one rotted, replacement playing well.)
>
> Casablanca -- Original DVD (First one rotted, replacement playing
> well.)
>
> Maltese Falcon (First one rotted, replacement playing well.)
>
> My Fair Lady (First one rotted, replacement playing well.)
>
>You might want to check the second layers of the Warner titles listed
>above if they are in your collection.

Well, after reading the above I pulled my original release off the shelf.
It sputters even reading the root directory and main menu, but past that
the movie plays until chapter 25. Then ... all hell breaks loose. Whew.
And looking at the media I can't even see anything unusually in its
appearance. Oh well.

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In article <20030907220818.293$>,
Scot Gardner <> wrote:
>If you have a copy of the first _Devil's Advocate_ (Warner DVD #15090),
>you might want to check and see if it has rotted yet. Mine was
>purchased in December of 1999 and seemed to play well one year ago.
>However, today after the layer change, the pixelation on the second
>layer quickly became so bad that my player locked up. This title is
>so notorious for rotting that I bought the new version a couple of
>years ago. So far, the new version still plays perfectly.

<<Well, after reading the above I pulled my original release off the
shelf. It sputters even reading the root directory and main menu, but
past that the movie plays until chapter 25. Then ... all hell breaks
loose. Whew. And looking at the media I can't even see anything
unusually in its appearance. Oh well.>>

Thanks for sharing your DVD Rot experience. As far as the appearance of
the _Devil's Advocate_ DVD is concerned, mine also looks absolutely
flawless -- no scratches or discoloration on the data surface.

Fortunately, _Devil's Advocate_ is still in print, albeit a version with
the edited Ex Nihilo sculpture. The fact that this title is notorious
for rotting makes me wonder about the wisdom of investing in rare and
out of print DVDs. There were a few instances of the original _Devil's
Advocate_ selling for up to $200 on eBay. If my $20 disk rotted, the
$200 disk will also rot.

Previously on this newsgroup, people who reported rotted DVDs were
ridiculed and told that there is no such thing as DVD Rot. There are
still many who believe that DVDs are immune to rot. If some of these
deluded persons come forward in this thread, here are some handy
euphemisms "rot" which can be used instead: Deterioration, Decay,
Degeneration and Decomposition. And they're so easy to remember since
they all start with "D" as in DeeVeeDee.

On Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:03:20 -0700, "Scot Gardner" <>
wrote:
>"Mike S." <> wrote in message
>news:bjj4p5$df1$...
>
>
>In article <20030907220818.293$>,
>Scot Gardner <> wrote:
>>If you have a copy of the first _Devil's Advocate_ (Warner DVD #15090),
>>you might want to check and see if it has rotted yet. Mine was
>>purchased in December of 1999 and seemed to play well one year ago.
>>However, today after the layer change, the pixelation on the second
>>layer quickly became so bad that my player locked up. This title is
>>so notorious for rotting that I bought the new version a couple of
>>years ago. So far, the new version still plays perfectly.
>
>
><<Well, after reading the above I pulled my original release off the
>shelf. It sputters even reading the root directory and main menu, but
>past that the movie plays until chapter 25. Then ... all hell breaks
>loose. Whew. And looking at the media I can't even see anything
>unusually in its appearance. Oh well.>>
>
>Thanks for sharing your DVD Rot experience. As far as the appearance of
>the _Devil's Advocate_ DVD is concerned, mine also looks absolutely
>flawless -- no scratches or discoloration on the data surface.
>
>Fortunately, _Devil's Advocate_ is still in print, albeit a version with
>the edited Ex Nihilo sculpture. The fact that this title is notorious
>for rotting makes me wonder about the wisdom of investing in rare and
>out of print DVDs. There were a few instances of the original _Devil's
>Advocate_ selling for up to $200 on eBay. If my $20 disk rotted, the
>$200 disk will also rot.
>
>Previously on this newsgroup, people who reported rotted DVDs were
>ridiculed and told that there is no such thing as DVD Rot. There are
>still many who believe that DVDs are immune to rot. If some of these
>deluded persons come forward in this thread, here are some handy
>euphemisms "rot" which can be used instead: Deterioration, Decay,
>Degeneration and Decomposition. And they're so easy to remember since
>they all start with "D" as in DeeVeeDee.
>

I reported a couple of rotted DVD's a year ago. I was ridiculed,
called names, told all my players were bad, told to stick to VHS etc.
And a long assinine thread started up about laserdisc being so
inferior because they rotted and DVD's didn't. In fact the incidence
of rot among lasers is low where it matters, though there are a
couple of infamous titles such as the Beauty and the Beast rough cut
and "Contact".

Likewise, DVD is now starting to show infamous rotters.

I forget what one of my reported rotted discs was (it MIGHT have been
a Warners) but the one I have in my hand right now is Miramax's "A
Walk on the Moon" which has become completely unplayable. And it has
started to show visible signs of deterioration, with the spreading,
starting from the inside, of a cloudy dark discoloration, caused by
massive failures of the pits I imagine. Actually I picked up another
copy of this title recently and it's flawless. It's noteworthy that
the very worst of my rotted laserdiscs, the ones I now hang on the
wall, do show some visible deterioration under the binder, a
cloudiness or slightly goldish discoloration.

It's unlikely that I would have run into any problems with early
Warner DVD's because anything I wanted to keep then I still had on
laserdisc. I will look among my 500-odd DVD's to see if there are any
early Warners however...

<<I reported a couple of rotted DVD's a year ago. I was ridiculed,
called names, told all my players were bad, told to stick to VHS etc.
And a long asinine thread started up about laserdisc being so inferior
because they rotted and DVD's didn't. In fact the incidence of rot
among lasers is low where it matters, though there are a
couple of infamous titles such as the Beauty and the Beast rough cut and
"Contact".>>

<<Likewise, DVD is now starting to show infamous rotters.>>

<<I forget what one of my reported rotted discs was (it MIGHT have been
a Warners) but the one I have in my hand right now is Miramax's "A Walk
on the Moon" which has become completely unplayable. And it has started
to show visible signs of deterioration, with the spreading, starting
from the inside, of a cloudy dark discoloration, caused by massive
failures of the pits I imagine. Actually I picked up another copy of
this title recently and it's flawless. It's noteworthy that the very
worst of my rotted laserdiscs, the ones I now hang on the wall, do show
some visible deterioration under the binder, a cloudiness or slightly
goldish discoloration.>>

<<It's unlikely that I would have run into any problems with early
Warner DVD's because anything I wanted to keep then I still had on
laserdisc. I will look among my 500-odd DVD's to see if there are any
early Warners however... .. Steve ...>>

Warner DVDs released well into 2000 have rotted. My newest Warner disk
to rot was _The Maltese Falcon_, which was released in February of 2000.
Therefore, it would be a good idea to check all Warner disks that you
purchased before 2001.

Here is all of the theoretical information that I have been able to
gather on the subject of DVD rot:

Those in this newsgroup who have not yet experienced DVD rot remain
skeptical and discourage any discussion of this subject. I have been
dealing with DVD rot since I first posted my experience with_Cabaret_in
December, 1999. It was inevitable that as the proliferation of DVD
players increased, more and more people would discover that they have
rotted DVDs in their collections.

First, let's not confuse Laser Rot with DVD rot:

LaserDiscs are subject to what's commonly called Laser Rot: The
deterioration of the aluminum layer due to oxidation or other chemical
change. This often results from the use of insufficiently pure aluminum
during replication, but can be exacerbated by mechanical shear stress
due to bending, warping or thermal cycles (the large size of LaserDiscs
makes them flexible, so that movement along the bond between layers can
break the seal). Deterioration of the data layer can be caused by
chemical contaminants or gasses in the glue, or by moisture that
penetrates the acrylic substrates.

Like LaserDiscs, DVDs are made of two platters glued together, but DVDs
are more rigid and use newer adhesives. DVDs are molded from
polycarbonate, which absorbs about ten times less moisture than the
slightly hygroscopic acrylic (PMMA) used for LaserDiscs.

It's too early to know for sure, but DVDs will probably have few laser
rot problems. There have been reports of a few discs going bad, possibly
due to poor adhesive, chemical reactions, or oxidation of the aluminum
layer. See www.mindspring.com/~yerington/.

So far, it appears that the DVD rot problem affects only the second
layer of RSDL (Reverse Spiral Dual Layer) and DL (Dual Layer) disks and
that, before the layer change triggers the transition of the optical
assembly to focus the laser on the second layer, there is no breakup in
the picture. But, once the layer change occurs, the momentary freezing,
blocking and color blotching begins. I have noted that as the disks
absorb the residual heat from my player, the problems intensify. I am
still exploring this heat-related theory: Heat causes expansion.
Therefore, could it be that the second layer of some WAMO RSDL disks
expands separately from the first layer causing the data spiral to
become out of round?

This peculiar ailment -- most often found on the second layer of Warner
DVDs (WAMO produced RSDL and possibly some DL) disks) -- has been called
disk rot by some. So far, I have lost 5 Warner RSDL titles to this
ailment (_Cabaret_, _Casablanca_, _The Maltese Falcon_, _Devil's
Advocate_ and _My Fair Lady_, however, none of the replacement disks has
rotted yet.

On Nov. 7, 2000 Mr. Moody posted the best theory that I have heard on
the subject of DVD rot under the subject header: "Re: YES!!! Some screen
captures from my Pioneer DV-525"

The pictures of the rotted discs athttp://www.mindspring.com/~yerington/
strongly remind me of stress cracks in acrylic. Has anyone ever seen
what happens to a sheet of acrylic which is subjected to continuous
flexing & vibration? It develops numerous short, tiny cracks in the
plastic in the area of greatest stress.

Combine this with Scot's heat observations, and I think what is
happening is that multiple heat cycles are stressing and cracking the
glue holding the layers together. WAMO had/has some defective glue that
is either too brittle or has the wrong heat expansion index (ie
different from the polycarbonate layer) and slowly develops microscopic
cracks as it is repeatedly heated and cooled.

### (My heat observations are posted below.)

This could explain why some people have several discs with this problem
while others have none. Personally, The Matrix is the only disc
mentioned which I have played more than 2-3 times.

This would mean that, unlike LD, DVD rotters will never rot on the
shelf, but only after they are played enough times. This is also
horrifying to think that maybe most or all of us own discs with limited
plays in them and don't know it.

*** *** ***

Therefore, the un-played defective disks can sit dormant on a warehouse
shelf and still deliver a honeymoon-fresh initial picture when they are
sold months or even years later. If Mr. Moody's theory is correct, it
would mean that it is the heat and centrifugal force of the playback
process that is combining to tear apart and/or alter the second layer of
the disk. He may be on to something here because it is at the outer
edge of the disk, where the layer change occurs, that the centrifugal
force is the strongest.

### This was my first observation of the relationship of heat and DVD
Rot:

Please check your copy of My Fair Lady. Mine has a totally rotted
second layer. Here are the numbers (some of them printed backward)
from the play side of this totally ruined disk:

WAMO VB01

16668V2

IFPI L906

M1S4

The layer change occurs at 1:41:49 right after the intermission and at
the start of chapter 31. The first symptoms of rot were audio dropouts
followed by slight pixelation, then the disk began to freeze slightly
before jumping back to the beginning of the layer change. This was after
playing the disk completely cold out of the box.

The disk warmed up after playing for 10 minutes and the momentary
freezing, blocking and color blotching became worse and worse. Then the
disk began to hang up about three minutes into chapter 31 and then the
player refused to go any further on its own. I could manually jump
through to chapter 35, but the playback problems become even worse to
the point that the disk became unplayable. The entire second layer of
this disk is completely rotted!

This heat theory might go a long way in explaining why a disk that has
rotted performs flawlessly, when you later play only the bad part in
another machine, before allowing it to warm up.

On Mon, 8 Sep 2003 21:18:48 -0700, "Scot Gardner" <>
wrote:
>"Steve(JazzHunter)" <> wrote in message
>news:...
>>
>First, let's not confuse Laser Rot with DVD rot:
>
>LaserDiscs are subject to what's commonly called Laser Rot: The
>deterioration of the aluminum layer due to oxidation or other chemical
>change. D
>
>It's too early to know for sure, but DVDs will probably have few laser
>rot problems.
>So far, it appears that the DVD rot problem affects only the second
>layer of RSDL (Reverse Spiral Dual Layer) and DL (Dual Layer) disks

I don't want the thread to continue from here, but I just have to
comment that I use the term "Rot" to cover ANY sort of deterioration
of the disc, either DVD or Laser. There is more than one type of
failure of Laserdiscs, and I suspect as you say that there is more
than one type of failure. of DVD's.

, "Scot Gardner" <> wrote:
> If you have a copy of the first _Devil's Advocate_ (Warner DVD #15090),
> you might want to check and see if it has rotted yet. Mine was purchased
> in December of 1999 and seemed to play well one year ago. However, today
> after the layer change, the pixelation on the second layer quickly
> became so bad that my player locked up. This title is so notorious for
> rotting that I bought the new version a couple of years ago. So far, the
> new version still plays perfectly.

Sorry if this sounds naive, but if the disc basically self-destructed
through no fault of your own, shouldn't Warner replace it? Why should you
have had to shell out for another one?

"John Simons" <> wrote in message
news:
....
, "Scot Gardner" <> wrote:
> If you have a copy of the first _Devil's Advocate_ (Warner DVD
> #15090), you might want to check and see if it has rotted yet.
> Mine was purchased in December of 1999 and seemed to play
> well one year ago. However, today after the layer change, the
> pixelation on the second layer quickly became so bad that my
> player locked up. This title is so notorious for rotting that I bought
> the new version a couple of years ago. So far, the new version
> still plays perfectly.

<<Sorry if this sounds naive, but if the disc basically
self-destructed through no fault of your own, shouldn't Warner replace
it? Why should you have had to shell out for another one?>>

No, this question does not sound naive. Unless you are dealing with
Disney (and Disney is the VERY best when it comes to replacing defective
DVDs), getting a replacement Warner title will be an exercise in
frustration. The main problem is that _Devil's Advocate_ had two
pressings: One made from the original theatrical release print and the
second made with some digital changes made to the statue. My copy was
the original version, Warner DVD #15090, which is out of print and
cannot be replaced. The replacement version, Warner DVD # 16172, is
readily available for well-under $15.

Of course I feel cheated, now that my once-valuable _Devil's Advocate_
has rotted. But I got off easy. There are some people who actually paid
anywhere from $50 to $150 -- and maybe more -- on eBay for this first
pressing. Chances are that these premium-priced disks will rot, if they
haven't already. I just did and eBay search for this title and there
don't appear to be any of the original pressings for sale. They've
probably all rotted by now.

I suppose that it might be possible to get Warner to replace this title,
as well as the other 4 Warner titles that have rotted on me, but trying
to get replacement disks just isn't worth the hassle. I'm sure that
Warner would fight me every step of the way:

1. Try to find the right person at Warner to contact and then get this
person to return my e-mails and/or phone calls.

2. Try to get a return authorization and perhaps return the disks at my
expense.

3. Wait forever for the replacements to arrive and then try to follow up
when they don't.

"Scot Gardner" <> wrote in message
news:20030911111939.792$...
>Of course I feel cheated, now that my once-valuable _Devil's Advocate_
>has rotted. But I got off easy. There are some people who actually paid
>anywhere from $50 to $150 -- and maybe more -- on eBay for this first
>pressing. Chances are that these premium-priced disks will rot, if they
>haven't already. I just did and eBay search for this title and there
>don't appear to be any of the original pressings for sale. They've
>probably all rotted by now.

Try backing the DVD up to your hard drive, and see if you can do that
cleanly.

"Memnoch" <randmtask at optushome . com . au> wrote in message
news:3f670414$0$6524$...
>
> "Scot Gardner" <> wrote in message
> news:20030911111939.792$...
> >Of course I feel cheated, now that my once-valuable _Devil's Advocate_
> >has rotted. But I got off easy. There are some people who actually paid
> >anywhere from $50 to $150 -- and maybe more -- on eBay for this first
> >pressing. Chances are that these premium-priced disks will rot, if they
> >haven't already. I just did and eBay search for this title and there
> >don't appear to be any of the original pressings for sale. They've
> >probably all rotted by now.
>
> Try backing the DVD up to your hard drive, and see if you can do that
> cleanly.
>
> If so, find someone with a DVD Burner and make a copy for a $1 or so.
>
> Problem solved
>
> Memnoch

How can you tell if yours is one of the ones in the original pressing? Why
are these selling for so much? Maybe I should put mine in, check it out,
and sell it.

"Scot Gardner" <> wrote in message
> This brings my total of rotted disks to 5 and ALL of them came
> from Warner:

_Contact_ is another early Warner dual-layered disc to have a lot of
reported "rot" problems. I believe Warner was the first studio to come
out with dual layered discs. And back in those days they were big
promoters of the format. So they may have come to market with them
before they had perfected the manufacturing process.

Deborah Proctor wrote in
<bEE9b.5211$>:
>
>"Memnoch" <randmtask at optushome . com . au> wrote in message
>news:3f670414$0$6524$...
>>
>> "Scot Gardner" <> wrote in message
>> news:20030911111939.792$...
>> >Of course I feel cheated, now that my once-valuable _Devil's Advocate_
>> >has rotted. But I got off easy. There are some people who actually paid
>> >anywhere from $50 to $150 -- and maybe more -- on eBay for this first
>> >pressing. Chances are that these premium-priced disks will rot, if they
>> >haven't already. I just did and eBay search for this title and there
>> >don't appear to be any of the original pressings for sale. They've
>> >probably all rotted by now.
>>
>> Try backing the DVD up to your hard drive, and see if you can do that
>> cleanly.
>>
>> If so, find someone with a DVD Burner and make a copy for a $1 or so.
>>
>> Problem solved
>>
>> Memnoch
>
>How can you tell if yours is one of the ones in the original pressing? Why
>are these selling for so much? Maybe I should put mine in, check it out,
>and sell it.

In the original pressing Keanu's facial expression seems to move
during the final confrontation with Pacino.

"Deborah Proctor" <> wrote in message
news:bEE9b.5211$...
>
> "Memnoch" <randmtask at optushome . com . au> wrote in message
> news:3f670414$0$6524$...
> >
> > "Scot Gardner" <> wrote in message
> > news:20030911111939.792$...
> > >Of course I feel cheated, now that my once-valuable _Devil's Advocate_
> > >has rotted. But I got off easy. There are some people who actually paid
> > >anywhere from $50 to $150 -- and maybe more -- on eBay for this first
> > >pressing. Chances are that these premium-priced disks will rot, if they
> > >haven't already. I just did and eBay search for this title and there
> > >don't appear to be any of the original pressings for sale. They've
> > >probably all rotted by now.
> >
> > Try backing the DVD up to your hard drive, and see if you can do that
> > cleanly.
> >
> > If so, find someone with a DVD Burner and make a copy for a $1 or so.
> >
> > Problem solved
> >
> > Memnoch
>
> How can you tell if yours is one of the ones in the original pressing?
Why
> are these selling for so much? Maybe I should put mine in, check it out,
> and sell it.
>
> Deborah Proctor
>
>
>
read the start of this thread!!!

Roy
btw. I just checked my edition (the first pressing) skipping all the
chapters and it still plays fine (pheeew!)....question: will it play fine in
years to come?....only time will tell!

> >How can you tell if yours is one of the ones in the original pressing?
Why
> >are these selling for so much? Maybe I should put mine in, check it out,
> >and sell it.
>
> In the original pressing Keanu's facial expression seems to move
> during the final confrontation with Pacino.

Hahahahahaha! Had to read that once or twice before I got it. Funny!!!

"Joan May" <> wrote in message
news:... (Scot Gardner)
wrote:
>"....The new _Devil's Advocate_ Warner DVD # 16172 has the Ex Nihilo
>statue edited out so that none of the figures are visible. "
>This is unfortunate news. I hate it when a dvd or video of a film has
>been altered from the original. Can you tell me which scene had the
>sculpture figures edited out?

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