I read somewhere that the radical mormons believe in killing their first born child in a sense to give it up to God. Is this true? Has anyone heard
this? Supposedly there is an unmarked burial ground somewhere in the desert in Utah which, if ever found, would blow the lid off of the church. It
is supposedly filled with the bodies of thousands of Mormon babies.

I'm a mainstream Mormon, and I have never heard of this concept in either the LDS church or any of the fundamentalist groups. I can assure you 100%
that mainstream Mormons have never believed in this, and I can almost guarantee that no fundamentalist Mormons have ever believed in this, either.

there are virtually no homosexuals in the Mormon church), probably because we view it as a sin. The church policy on homosexuals is that they are
allowed to get baptized but they cannot practice homosexuality as a member.

You mean there a few that ADMIT they are gay (and many that keep it in the closet). Just like Catholic priests don't admit that they are perverts
and pedophiles.

I can't find who you were quoting, Excitable_Boy, but it does sound like something I might have said a few months ago, so I'll pretend I said it if
I didn't.

There are definitely very very few Mormons that admit they are gay, for the reason you quoted; homosexuality is seen as a sin by the Mormon church. I
have no idea (and I doubt anyone but God knows) how many Mormons are 'in the closet'. I suspect it's a lower percentage than the general
population, since I find it difficult to imagine gay people wanting to stay in a church that disapproves of their sexual orientation.

Here's a quote from an official LDS website that explains what we think of homosexuality. From
www.mormon.org...

Question:
What is the Church's attitude toward homosexuality?

Answer:
Gordon B. Hinckley, President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, issued the following statement about homosexuality:

"We believe that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God. We believe that marriage may be eternal through exercise of the power of the
everlasting priesthood in the house of the Lord.

"People inquire about our position on those who consider themselves so-called gays and lesbians. My response is that we love them as sons and
daughters of God. They may have certain inclinations which are powerful and which may be difficult to control. Most people have inclinations of one
kind or another at various times. If they do not act upon these inclinations, then they can go forward as do all other members of the Church. If they
violate the law of chastity and the moral standards of the Church, then they are subject to the discipline of the Church, just as others are.

"We want to help these people, to strengthen them, to assist them with their problems and to help them with their difficulties. But we cannot stand
idle if they indulge in immoral activity, if they try to uphold and defend and live in a so-called same-sex marriage situation. To permit such would
be to make light of the very serious and sacred foundation of God-sanctioned marriage and its very purpose, the rearing of families" (Ensign, Nov.
1998, 71).

That quote is from the current leader of the Mormon church, Gordon B Hinckley, from 1998.

E_B: How does one practice homosexuality?

My guess is this means things like having a boyfriend when you are a man, having a girlfriend when you are a woman, having sex with someone of the
same gender, being in a same-sex marriage, or that kind of thing.

That Mormons want to convert the World. And so does the rest of the World Religions. (No conspiracy here.)

Lets Name a true conspiracy then?

"Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world
and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound
by any law when they are out of the world. Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed
angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight
of glory. For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their
saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. (D&C 132:15-17)"-
source ("http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/restoring/chap06.html")

So all Marriages outside the Mormon Temple are Not "Blessed" by the Heavenly Father. And as such, The marriages are only "Worldly". And at the
time of Death is Revoked. (And then the "single person" is demoted to "angelic status". To serve other Temple Married couples.)

So All Non Mormons are Revoked from Being "Gods and Goddesses" over Worlds.

Why Is this doctrine Not taught openly? (Is the conspiracy.)

And why does DragonsDemesne Fail To mention this?

(Plus we can have the Baptism of the Dead conspiracy added as well. Along with Blood atonement, Adam is God, temple Rituals, ceremony of the veil,
secret oaths, the total Authority of the President, etc.)

><

Also of side note, The Mormons of yester year are different the ones of Today. The First presidency Declares the Continual Revelation of the Heavenly
Father. (He, Much like the Pope. Reveals ever Changing truths Based on the Heavenly Fathers will. Of Course, The president is not the Pope, and vise
versa.

The Mormons, Much like the Jehovah Witness's have a Temple Hierarchy That mandates doctrinal Truth's. So if Green becomes Blue, Then Green is Blue.
And it makes perfect sense to a temple Follower. While the Worldly person states “it‘s Foolish.” This is a process of a Group "think" mind and
any deviancy is outside the truth's of Revelation. And is heresy. (This is a over simplification of a Societal based Religious propaganda. Which
other Religions\ideologies\Cultures use as well.)

I vote NO CONSPIRACY on this one. The LDS Church has some very positive aspects IMHO, so do a lot of the world religions. The missionaries can seem
a bit pushy sometimes, but not every missionary is like that. I have met, and made good friends with, several missionaries from the LDS Church. Go
ahead and stick to your faith Dragons, most people don't have something worth holding onto, but you do. Naysayers really don't account for much in
this world, they're usually just out to make trouble. Others are just inquisitive and ignorant of the LDS Church

People inquire about our position on those who consider themselves so-called gays and lesbians

What is the difference between a "so-called" gay or lesbian and a plain old gay and lesbian? This guy just has trouble with the words gay and
lesbian. He says "those who consider themselves so-called gays or lesbians" instead of "gays and lesbians." Sounds like he's in the closet.

Originally posted by msnevil (as are following quotes until specified otherwise)
"Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world.... but are angels of God forever and ever. (D&C 132:15-17)"- (shortened by Dragon for space)

So all Marriages outside the Mormon Temple are Not "Blessed" by the Heavenly Father. And as such, The marriages are only "Worldly". And at the
time of Death is Revoked. (And then the "single person" is demoted to "angelic status". To serve other Temple Married couples.)

So All Non Mormons are Revoked from Being "Gods and Goddesses" over Worlds.

Why Is this doctrine Not taught openly? (Is the conspiracy.)

And why does DragonsDemesne Fail To mention this?

The quote above is taken directly from Mormon scripture, the Doctrine & Covenants (D&C). This doctrine isn't a secret, as anyone who has read D&C
can say, so I would not consider this a conspiracy, as it is still taught today. The only reason I didn't mention this before is that it never came
up yet in this discussion.

(Plus we can have the Baptism of the Dead conspiracy added as well. Along with Blood atonement, Adam is God, temple Rituals, ceremony of the
veil, secret oaths, the total Authority of the President, etc.)

Baptism for the Dead: This is a ceremony performed only in our temples, where people are baptised 'in proxy' for deceased people who did not get
baptised while living. It is seen by us as a great service to the deceased. The deceased soul has a choice whether to accept or reject the baptism;
we aren't forcing anything on anyone, just giving them the option.

The only conspiracy I can see in this area stems from an agreement Mormon leaders made a few years back with Jewish leaders. An ATS thread about that
exists here, but I will briefly summarize. Jewish leaders asked the LDS church not to
baptise any Jews, unless they were the ancestors of a Mormon, or a descendant or the person while alive gave explicit permission to do so. Primarily
because this never became very public, most Mormons didn't know they weren't supposed to baptise Jews without permission, so this continued, and the
Jewish leaders were angry over it.

Blood Atonement: This was a doctrine that, as far as I am aware, has not been practiced since the days of Brigham Young. (~150 years ago) It says
that people who commit the sin of murder cannot have any hope of salvation in the afterlife unless they voluntarily forfeit their own life.

Adam-is-God: I'm going to refer you to this article that I found just now while doing
a search on the subject. I read through it and it explains this issue fairly well. Bottom line (if you don't have time to read that rather lengthy
article) is that Adam is NOT God.

Temple Rituals, Ceremony of the veil, Secret oaths:
Mormons aren't supposed to discuss that stuff, and since I haven't gone through these ceremonies yet, I wouldn't have much to contribute, anyway,
since everything I know about them is stuff I've read on the internet. I will say that the secret oaths were removed from the ceremony in 1990; they
were (extremely strongly worded!) promises not to divulge what you learned in the temple, outside of the temple. The only possible 'conspiracy' I
can see here is that Mormons don't typically discuss these rituals.

total Authority of the President: Whoever is the president of the Mormon church is naturally the one who is going to shape major policies. No one
forces you to do whatever he says, but if you want to be a Mormon in good standing, you would probably be following most/all of his teachings.

Also of side note, The Mormons of yester year are different the ones of Today. The First presidency Declares the Continual Revelation of the
Heavenly Father. (He, Much like the Pope. Reveals ever Changing truths Based on the Heavenly Fathers will. Of Course, The president is not the Pope,
and vise versa.

This is correct. The President of the LDS church is given the same respect by Mormons as the Pope is given by Catholics, for example, and in both
churches, the only higher authorities are God and Jesus Christ.

Excitable Boy: What is the difference between a "so-called" gay or lesbian and a plain old gay and lesbian? This guy just has trouble with
the words gay and lesbian. He says "those who consider themselves so-called gays or lesbians" instead of "gays and lesbians." Sounds like he's in
the closet.

I don't know what the difference is either; it sounds to me like he's voicing his disapproval of gay/lesbian lifestyles by adding the 'so-called'
to the sentence. And no, he's not 'in the closet'; he was married for something like 70 years, until his wife died a couple years back (he's in
his 90s) and he's got a couple of kids. (I think 4 or 5 of them)

Shouldn't God be the leader of the church? Is this guy the Pope of the Mormon church?

Yes to both points. In our belief, Jesus Christ is the head of the church, and the President (also called Prophet) of the church is his spokesman on
earth. (I think this is similar to the beliefs of other Christian churches, if I am not mistaken) And yes, the president of the Mormon church is a
position equivalent to the Pope in the Catholic church.

Originally posted by msnevil
And why does DragonsDemesne Fail To mention this?

(Plus we can have the Baptism of the Dead conspiracy added as well. Along with Blood atonement, Adam is God, temple Rituals, ceremony of the veil,
secret oaths, the total Authority of the President, etc.)

Some of the most bizarre and violent changes in mormon doctrine occurred during the time of its second "prophet" Brigham Young. If you have a
chance to find them - the Journal of Discourses is a great read.

Blood atonement was a doctrine introduced by Brigham Young. Young surmised that there are some crimes that are so heinous that the only way someone
could redeem themselves is by offering their own life in return. Problem is who decides on what constitutes "a crime so heinous" that it would
require you to die to repent? Young had a very liberal interpreration of his words to mean internal and external threats to the fledgling church
itself. Over the last century its focus has narrowed to murder - if you take a life, you can only be saved if your blood is also spilled. It was
this holdout belief in blood atonement that led the state of utah to retain a firing squad as a method of execution until just the last few years.

Temple ordinances This one is interesting in that it shows how these supposed
sacred, revelation revealed ordinances have been changed to accomodate the membership. If ppl are creeped out by their experience in the temples and
more willing to vocalize it - you either lose them or you change it and keep the money coming in.

I have never heard the term "the ceremony of the veil" before but I do recall that the five points of fellowship had to be made with someone on the
other side before you could enter and you had to speak your temple name or the name of the proxy you were performing the ceremony for.

For me the most disturbing aspect of the church is that they still hold onto the teaching of modern day revelation. There are millions of members who
are willing to die or to kill with no more than a word from their profit....er prophet. They actually believe this man holds daily conversations with
god. The potential for abuse is ever present imo, but then again - we are talking about religion aren't we? Guess they just go hand in hand with
one another.

Hinckley is the main reason that I'm now sitting on the outside looking in on the Mormon Church. Every interview that he did just revealed to me
more and more that he was a fraud and didn't even have a testimony of what he was trying to say or in most cases, what he was trying not to say.
Anyway, I knew that on several occasions, that he had stated that the Church was either true or a fraud, etc.

I see, so now we're passing judgement on people because of their appearances?

No...not at all. Just made an observation regarding that, not a judgement. My judgement is on the fact that this man is a fraud, liar, cheat, thief,
user, and has made millions and possible billions off the people of the Mormon Church. He is not a holy man. He has no calling. He is simply out to
make money. And yet, he is the "Pope" of the Mormon church. I find that pathetically sad!...that's my judgement.

My observation that he looks like the character from Mad Magazine as an old man was simply that, an observation.....

While you are certainly welcome to have whatever opinion you want towards the LDS church and it's leader, I have to add that whatever else Gordon
Hinckley might have or have not done, he most certainly has not 'made millions and possible billions off the people of the Mormon Church'.

I happen to disagree with the rest of that post as well, but the rest of it is, as you say, your judgment.

edit: I came across something just now that's related to a previous post by Excitable Boy, and this post is recent enough to edit, so I can avoid
double posting...

Excitable Boy: What is the difference between a "so-called" gay or lesbian and a plain old gay and lesbian? This guy just has trouble with
the words gay and lesbian.

1995: Dallin H. Oaks, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles wrote a definitive article in the magazine Ensign, titled "Same Gender
Attraction". Some points stated in his article were:
...
4) The terms "homosexual, lesbian, and Gay are adjectives, (as in "homosexual feelings", or "lesbian behavior") and should not be used as nouns
to describe people.

1995: Dallin H. Oaks, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles wrote a definitive article in the magazine Ensign, titled "Same Gender
Attraction". Some points stated in his article were:
...
4) The terms "homosexual, lesbian, and Gay are adjectives, (as in "homosexual feelings", or "lesbian behavior") and should not be used as nouns
to describe people.

It's nice that Dallin Oaks needs to explain to me what a noun is.

Let me give you a lesson:

1. The lesbian drove her car to work.

Find the nouns....lesbian, car, work

He is right about Gay (that's a verb), but that's it...another example:

2. The homosexual ordered another champagne cocktail.

Find the nouns....homosexual, champagne cocktail

So tell your buddy Dallin Oaks to study the english language a little better.

I sense that you are harboring some anti-Mormon feelings. There seems to be a bit too much hostility in your posts to suggest that you feel
threatened by the LDS Church. Why feel threatened by something that you feel bears no truth? May I ask what has driven you into hatred?

As someone who grew up in the state of Idaho, I have my own, strong feelings and opinions about Mormons, very few of which are positive.

I'm not sure I'd attribute any of this to some conspiracy, as others have said, most religions wish to 'save' everyone and convert them. But, I
thought I'd add my own two cents to this thread, having first hand knowledge of some of the things mentioned.

It's one thing to have a pushy missionary at your door - and another for it to be an example of the manner of the Mormon church in general. Clannish
doesn't begin to describe it.

I grew up under the pressure of the Mormon church. Always trying to convert you, always trying to influence and control.

Try living in a small town (and many do in Utah, Idaho and other surrounding states) where the predominate religion is Mormon. Try to run for public
office when you're a Catholic, Jew or Methodist. Or try to get that senior management position. Or get on the cheerleading squad. Try encouraging
new, young doctors to move into the area, and hope that the existing cabal of mormons don't run him off.

And for you who poo poo at the Scouts thing, I can't speak for everywhere, but at least in my home town, they hounded my little brother to join the
Mormon church and gave him a hard time because he wouldn't, until he finally quit.

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