On May 05 2014 05:03 WolfintheSheep wrote:Yeah, as I said, your ranking has zero bearing on current standings and everything to do with how long a team has been around and how much money went into the team's pocket.

Don't see how your stats are any more relevant than SC2earnings.

No it does not have everything to do with how long a team has been around because the ranking only counts results of the past 12 months. If you want to know which team was the best in the past 3 month , there is a special ranking for that

Sc2Earnings has nothing to do with Dota and is not updated anymore.

12 months doesn't make it any better. That just makes it DotA2earnings with an arbitrary cut-off.

Rankings are meaningless if they have no relevance to the next tournament, or even the next match.

On May 05 2014 06:40 CheeseInSpace wrote:Then go Quickrating and create a ranking you think is best

Nobody has time for that, if you're going to take the time and effort to do it atleast do it right. These rankings are dumb and im pretty sure everyone above me agrees. Your logic behind the team rating is flawed. If you don't think EG/DK/VG are the best teams in the world right now I suggest you just dont do rankings.

If it's taking data from 2011 and using that to determine this ranking, then it makes sense that EG isn't in the top 3. If you're looking at it to answer "Who are the strongest 3 teams RIGHT NOW" it isn't going to tell you, because it's telling you statistically who the top 3 "teams" (brands really) have been in the last 3 years and not by specific roster or patch.

That said, what it is telling us doesn't seem that useful. Dota 2's roster changes and the power shifts between patches means that "who is the best" in the last 3 years doesn't give you that great of an indication of who is going to win a bo5 in 6.81

These rankings go further back than your memory. EG was essentially shit until this year. Na'Vi has been consistent for many, many years. And I'd still give Na'Vi the edge at this upcoming TI4.

EG might have been performing less well until last year, but they had a completely different roster, it was a completely different metagame, and it was several balance patches ago. Why should they be ranked by something unrelated to the current team and how the game looks today?

A "World Ranking" should correspond to some sort of current performance, not past achievements. What these world rankings measure is prestige, not skill.

These rankings go further back than your memory. EG was essentially shit until this year. Na'Vi has been consistent for many, many years. And I'd still give Na'Vi the edge at this upcoming TI4.

EG might have been performing less well until last year, but they had a completely different roster, it was a completely different metagame, and it was several balance patches ago. Why should they be ranked by something unrelated to the current team and how the game looks today?

A "World Ranking" should correspond to some sort of current performance, not past achievements. What these world rankings measure is prestige, not skill.

well you do need to consider past results , its part of the "predicting the future" mechanism we use , you can say that recent form has a larger weight (and ill agree to that) but past performance indicate potential as well as skill (you need to be good to be high on the rankings) , i do state as you did , that changing rosters should almost " zero" the score , but different patches do not.

I agree that you need to base rankings on past results, I tried to make a distinction between achievements and performance, achievements being tournament finishes and performance being how well a team perform in games relative to the competition.

But I think that patches and metagame certainly impacts a teams performance. For instance, Alliance had a measly 56.8% win rate in patch 6.80, down from 70.1% in 6.79, and they currently have 81.8% in 6.81 (although with few matches played). I believe that sudden dip in performance can't be explained with Alliance just becoming a worse team.

On May 05 2014 12:24 WolfintheSheep wrote:12 months doesn't make it any better. That just makes it DotA2earnings with an arbitrary cut-off.

You are ignoring the fact that the World Ranking has 336 teams in it while you only get prize money for the first 4 teams at a tournament (maybe 8 if it's a large one). So the ranking counts all the teams who never make any prize money as well.

On May 05 2014 14:38 VoirDire wrote:A "World Ranking" should correspond to some sort of current performance, not past achievements. What these world rankings measure is prestige, not skill.

You might want to take a look how the ATP Rankings work, these account for current and past (1 year iirc) achievments.

If this ranking should have any worth you need to split the ranking up into diffrent "Zones". You can't mix Sea/Chines/Western-Teams into one ranking, they just don't play enough against each other and don't visit the same tourneys regulary enough.

On May 05 2014 23:59 xxpack09 wrote:Why are Speed Gaming and Cloud9 listed separately on this list? They're the same team...

Technically not, Speed Gaming are a Chinese team now.But in the context of this list, it is the pre-C9 squad.

Another reason why this site's rankings are awful, even teams like nTH/Kaipi are listed yet OP thinks that the site only lists the 12 months? (Kaipi were around 12 months ago but the name has been defunct for what, 9 months?)

Then theres the fact that he hasn't put any extra work into the Dota section, teams have a SC2 Race icon (blank) next to their flag and a SC2 Race icon (also blank) over their large team logo.

On May 05 2014 23:59 xxpack09 wrote:Why are Speed Gaming and Cloud9 listed separately on this list? They're the same team...

Technically not, Speed Gaming are a Chinese team now.But in the context of this list, it is the pre-C9 squad.

Another reason why this site's rankings are awful, even teams like nTH/Kaipi are listed yet OP thinks that the site only lists the 12 months? (Kaipi were around 12 months ago but the name has been defunct for what, 9 months?)

Then theres the fact that he hasn't put any extra work into the Dota section, teams have a SC2 Race icon (blank) next to their flag and a SC2 Race icon (also blank) over their large team logo.

Just ignore it. He seems to think there is nothing wrong with his ranking despite people pointing out obvious and huge flaws.

On May 06 2014 00:10 ReignSupreme. wrote:Technically not, Speed Gaming are a Chinese team now.But in the context of this list, it is the pre-C9 squad.

No, in the context of this list Speed Gaming is Speed Gaming and if their former players switched teams, their performance as Speed Gaming counts for Speed Gaming - and their performance for Cloud 9 counts for Cloud 9.

For the future i plan to do something like an individuals ranking, but it needs time to add all the players to the database.

On May 06 2014 00:10 ReignSupreme. wrote:Another reason why this site's rankings are awful, even teams like nTH/Kaipi are listed yet OP thinks that the site only lists the 12 months? (Kaipi were around 12 months ago but the name has been defunct for what, 9 months?)

Kaipi played their last tournaments in September, so they were still active in the past 12 months, which is why they are on the list.

On May 06 2014 00:10 ReignSupreme. wrote:Then theres the fact that he hasn't put any extra work into the Dota section, teams have a SC2 Race icon (blank) next to their flag and a SC2 Race icon (also blank) over their large team logo.

Can you link such things to me or upload a screenshot? I will fix it immediately. Thought it was fixed, but you never catch them all...

On May 06 2014 00:10 ReignSupreme. wrote:Technically not, Speed Gaming are a Chinese team now.But in the context of this list, it is the pre-C9 squad.

No, in the context of this list Speed Gaming is Speed Gaming and if their former players switched teams, their performance as Speed Gaming counts for Speed Gaming - and their performance for Cloud 9 counts for Cloud 9.

For the future i plan to do something like an individuals ranking, but it needs time to add all the players to the database.

On May 06 2014 00:10 ReignSupreme. wrote:Another reason why this site's rankings are awful, even teams like nTH/Kaipi are listed yet OP thinks that the site only lists the 12 months? (Kaipi were around 12 months ago but the name has been defunct for what, 9 months?)

Kaipi played their last tournaments in September, so they were still active in the past 12 months, which is why they are on the list.

This makes absolutely no sense at all. It's literally the exact same squad of players, only under different sponsorship. There is no meaningful difference between sG/C9/Kaipi and listing them separately is stupid. If Alliance changed their name to EG.int absolutely NOTHING about the quality of their play (which is the point of the list!) would be different.

On May 06 2014 03:07 WolfintheSheep wrote:So you can either accept the criticisms and try to make something worthwhile, or you can keep plugging your ears and not get a single hit after a week.

Maybe it seems as if i plug my ears, but i don't. I read each argument and if i have a different opinion, i ask questions. There are a lot of things in this thread which i put on my to-do-list, like a skip button in Quickrating, the massive number of korean teams etc.