Motto:"A good head and a good heart are always a formidable combination."

Weapon: Sniper Rifle

Welcome back to the one and only Seibertron.com Twincast/Podcast! Join our host Counterpunch along with his fellow Podcast casemates Razorclaw0000, jON3.0, Rotorstorm, ScottyP, and Tigertrack in Episode 78 titled "Dramatis Personae". You can find this episode directly, in our RSS Feed and it should appear on iTunes within 24 to 48 hours of this news post.

Want to know what's in this episode? Check out below for a brief rundown!

Transformers 4: The Age of Extinction ToysYou knew they were coming, but did you know that they were going to possibly look. like. THIS! Who likes the style and who doesn't? What's your impression of how the new movie line will be received after our first images of Age of Extinction Leader Class Optimus Prime were shared via New York Comic Con? The Twincast, of course, shares their open-minded and certainly never pessimistic ideas.

New Masterpiece News!The next new mold Autobot car has been released, and many of the podcast were lucky enough to have Masterpiece 17 Prowl in-hand to let our listeners know exactly just how much you should want this toy. (We also talk about boobies...I mean hoods, grills, and headlights of a car.)

Weren't we just speaking about masterpieces? Our crew sounds off on what has taken so long to become a reality, and makes an effort to try to convince any US retailers to take a shot at an MP-Ultra Magnus as a store/holiday exclusive. 1986 movie cast rules!

Shout out to Vince Dicola!We love the 1986 Transformers movie, and thus, we can be moved to want to own everything related to it including the excellent score. Well some of us. Let nothing stand in your way of hearing about this cool music collectible.

Comic chatThe podcast is really looking forward to the IDW DARK CYBERTRON event, and RID 21 discussion and spoilers get us thinking about what will be.

Rise of the Predacons!The crew of the Twincast discusses the finale of the PRIME and BEAST HUNTERS TV SHOW and recaps some of the entire series' failings, and successes. Some critical analysis of some plot pieces and characters leads us to try to decide on whether or not this was an endeavor that we overall enjoyed, or not, and leads us to wonder what comes next?

Remembering A GodThe great Orson Welles, who played his final role for the Transformers franchise as the voice of the biggest TF baddie ever, made fans take note and remember why this actor was so great (Robin Masters voice on MAGNUM PI!) on the anniversary of his passing.

'Small Cast' versus 'Selling Toys' versus 'Gimmicks'The bridge crew of the ark 78 takes us on a journey for enlightenment as we discuss the new Transformers storytelling style that has been working its way into the media since Beast Wars and what this has meant for our enjoyment of the franchise. Why has the small, central cast become the norm? What does the introduction of new HASBRO/IDW characters and using them in the limited casts mean for those with classic favorites being left out? Is the small cast better than the rotation of a large cast that is more or less determined by product release? What is happening to all the gimmicks like all the masters (head-, power-, target-), energon weapons, and minicons for previous franchise examples that also used to drive the media? They seem to be non-existent in the most recent iterations of toys, shows, and comic books (Example: Arms Micron Takara vs. Prime HASBRO). When we're done there still is no answer...

Live from New York it's Seibertron.com!Picture guy and home to us all, Ryan calls in to our discussion and let's us know how things were going out at the New York City Comic-con. Will he ever answer the question Bulkhead or Ironhide?

That's a wrap!And finally the crew wraps up with recent toy purchase discussions, and many jealousies are had.

Motto:"To be a true Transformers fan you must hate everything that is Transformers."

Weapon: Null-Ray Rifle

Everyone in Podcast hates on the G1 cartoon.

Then they say Prowl is awesome because 'it is like he walked off the cartoon'.

If the cartoon was crap then your MP Prowl is crap. Unless you are admitting that the G1 TV series had good mech design. Then, we start admitting that the original cartoon HAD good points to it, which admitting something good about the G1 cartoon is anathema to Beast Wars fans. Combined with the excellent voice acting, this is what gives us G1 fans our fond memories of the cartoon. Memories, the G1 haters will never have. I am the first to admit that the 1 episode story arcs are very dated and don't translate well in our modern time. I still enjoy them, but that is just me. You don't have to enjoy the cartoon. But don't collect G1 MPs while bashing on (what is sometimes) their only shining piece of fiction. Again, Prowl comes to mind.

Granted, Beast Wars had Megatron in a bathtub with a rubber ducky, but oh it is so cool and dark unlike the wonky G1 cartoon. Wait, that is Beast Machines, and no one liked that.

You all talk about how awesome the Vince DiCola soundtrack was for the movie. Again, I thought the G1 cartoon had nothing redeemable about it. Oh, the movie was cool.

I really question the G1 haters. Of course, if you defend G1 you are now a GEEWUNNER.

I have a near complete Armada/Micron Legend toy collection and love it with a damn passion. The cartoon on the other hand was a turd at times, and while it did have some strong pts it is still a turd. Does that make me any lessof a fan? No. I dont have to like everything of something within each medium. If cartoons have such priority on how much someone can like the toys then what about the comics? It is as much G1 as the toys and cartoon.

People have varying opinions and thats what makes the hobby awesome. What isnt awesome is trying to shoehorn people into binaries, "if you dont like the cartoon, you're a this". Thats just dumb. Be glad this franchise is actually this strong and be happy with what we have and what we are getting.

Motto:"To be a true Transformers fan you must hate everything that is Transformers."

Weapon: Null-Ray Rifle

First, everyone is arguing what they wish I said rather than what I said. I never said G1 episodes were the epitome of Transformers writing. It is better than Energon imo so I felt that calling G1 the worst piece of fiction was unfair. It isn't like G1 influences every other piece of fiction ever also, so it had to have some good ideas. I understand the hate of all things G1 is strong (except MPs) but note that a lot of us loved these characters and designs before the MP and don't need the MP to like them which is the impression I am under here.

As the say haters gonna hate. Just don't pretend that other media like Beast Wars also hasn't aged horribly.

Calm yourself down, man. They weren't hating on every single aspect of the cartoon as a whole. They didn't say the entire thing was "irredeemable". They only spoke of the storytelling and lack of character development as things they felt could have been better. And in many respects, that is true. The G1 cartoon did not really have that many well developed characters. It had plenty of archetypes and memorable one-offers, but as far as overarching, ongoing character exploration and growth, it had very little time and opportunity to do so due to how busy it was trying to promote at least 177 toys. Though not all at once, but still in large quantities within 22-minute intervals.

One can still appreciate the cartoon's character designs and music while feeling the show lacked in the character development department.

Though, one thing more in your post does stand out to me:

burning_sirius wrote:But don't collect G1 MPs while bashing on (what is sometimes) their only shining piece of fiction. Again, Prowl comes to mind.

I'm sorry, but Prowl's popularity as a character stems far from just his cartoon appearances. Rather, it owes far more to his IDW comic appearances, in which he has been a major player since the very beginning back in 2005.

Has anyone else noticed how bare-bones the MP Prowl toy feels in regards to accessories compared to those of all the other MPs? I mean, let's look at this:

Two accessories. Two. And that's only if one is able to get the exclusive missile launcher, leaving everyone else stuck with just a measly gun weapon.

Know why Prowl's arsenal is so limited compared to all the others'? It's because Prowl wasn't a memorable character from the cartoon. He didn't do anything memorable and was barely utilized as his own person. He had no quirks or gimmicks to be exploited, and didn't even get his own "sell this toy" spotlight episode. The most that happened to him people can recall is the one time he was controlled like a puppet by Chip Chase, which is more impressive for Chip than it is for Prowl.

If ten years ago we were told about the prospect of a Masterpiece Prowl toy, I doubt there would have been much commotion made about it beyond the simple fact that it would have been yet another Masterpiece toy (which the very concept in and of itself was a big deal back then). But in this day and age, the hype over Prowl as a character comes from his "by-the-book stiff" persona that IDW brought to life and has been thoroughly developing for the past eight or so years.

Also, regarding the whole jab at the Beast Era you made, people liking it solely because it was "darker and edgier" is a fallacy.

Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'

Motto:"To be a true Transformers fan you must hate everything that is Transformers."

Weapon: Null-Ray Rifle

Hey Saber,

Prowl played a big roll in the marvel comics. I was not being mean. I just felt a bit of malice from the podcast. I just said I enjoyed the cartoon for what I felt were legit reasons. It just felt weird they dissed G1 as the worst only to praise prowl for coming off the cartoon.

Also Japan has a different dynamic than the US given how popular Diaclone was. But I took the bait in responding to just how mean the podcast was to us old school fans, it felt like contempt.

I am completely fine if people don't like G1. We are a big boat. I am glad to just talk about TFs but I wanted to give my best defence.

Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'

I don't see how you could make a 'legitimate' Sunstreaker from the MP-12 mold. That would be like making a Motormaster figure out of the MP-10 mold. I vote they continue to do the MP figs right or don't even bother.

Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'

I don't know how they'd possibly get the hood to be his feet, much less split in two. And if they go that far, I don't know if it's really a retool any more. If they can use some of the Sideswipe mold for parts, more power to them, I guess...just don't half ass it and give us Tigertrack with a Sunstreaker head and a big ass engine on the back of alt mode. Then it's no longer MP.

Motto:"To be a true Transformers fan you must hate everything that is Transformers."

Weapon: Null-Ray Rifle

The 'Sunstreaker is a retool' argument is just so bad. He would have to be an entirely different mold.

This is the same for Jazz with Prowl. There were a lot of people saying 'Jazz is just a retool of Prowl'. They do not know what they are talking about.

Saber, I thought about Prowl's 'lack of accessories' but I feel as I always have felt. My earlier reply was mobile and some just quick jots. MP G1 is an homage to Diaclone. I feel they had to 'cut' Prowl for budgetary reasons (they wanted him within a certain price point) so they didn't give him his true shoulder cannons.

You cannot say that Prowl's sole source of popularity (or the only reason why he got a MP) was because of Post G1 comics. Why would Sideswipe, who was effectively dumped after the Furman run, chosen to get a MP. I always knew that Prowl was going to be next with discussions with my friends. Why? Because he is 84, he is 2nd in command of the Autobots and because he is a great Diaclone figure designed by Shoji Kawamori. I joked that when Takara got the licensing deal with Lamborghini, they deleted Prowl and worked on Sideswipe instantly.

Prowl is iconic. His face is the inspiration for the Autobot symbol. He is a classic mech design with two features that carried onto movie Bumblebee that is a hood chest and door wings. (This is why I don't like movie Bumblebee mind you).

Anyway, the earlier point was that what drives the whole sales of the MP line are people like me. People who enjoy and treasure either Diaclone or G1 (or both in my case). I treasure the fiction and really like Prowl. I always remember the orange smoke coming out of his face in the Movie and then knowing all bets were off when it came to deaths.

I just get annoyed with the G1 haters. Certainly, Energon is the worst Transformers series of all time, not the G1 cartoon. Arguably RID is the final 'Braves' series and thus is the spiritual successor of Transformers Victory and depending on how much you like Victory or Braves will determine your like of RID. Unicron Trilogy was just meh, Cybertron again revived the idea of Brave which is why I like it. The rest, no so much.

But the ideas, the characterizations all of it was rooted with Bob Budiansky, his bios and the really characterful voice acting of the G1 cartoon. How the show handles (or for a better phrase lack of handling) the plot definitely shows and its age isn't kind to it in that regard, but I feel in terms of being character driven, we got many great plots from the episodes (and horrible ones as well: Carnage in C Minor, BOT). Everyone seemed to argue that I was saying G1 the Cartoon was the best, and I wasn't. Likewise, the G1 era wasn't just the cartoon but also the comic, which everyone forgets and all the cool stories from it and how people like me who treasure a lot of characters like how the comic treated (and promoted) a lot of them beyond the cartoon like with Prowl.

Anyway, I guess we are just the dead horse to beat in the community. Want a take a cheap shot at any segment of the fandom? Do it to the G1 fans. Call them GEEWUNNERS. Call their posts fanboy rants. There are people who abuse this term. I am not a 'GEEWUNNER' but it is used by people who hate G1 against all people who like G1 or only like G1. Just because you only like G1 doesn't mean you are a GEEWUNNER. The rest of the fandom is immune from being prodded at in this manner (they don't get a catchy insult to apply to them). It is hard to get used because of the rich history of G1 and how it permeates every aspect of the brand. I love new stuff don't get me wrong.

I love Animated, I love Prime, I am meh about Beast Wars, and I grew up with it as a kid and everyone makes it more than what it is. But I am gradually getting used to the occasional not so subtle jabs at G1. I think Bayformer fans get more respect on here than we do, or at least people are not as malicious with it (maybe because of bitterness with another person idk). There is a difference between a good laugh and a sharp barb.

Motto:"To be a true Transformers fan you must hate everything that is Transformers."

Weapon: Null-Ray Rifle

Tigertrack wrote:Look I love G1, but I would never consider myself a 'geewunner'.

And I can accept that while I have watched the G1 cartoons over and over and over again, along with the movie that there is a considerable lack of good storytelling.

Were they fun? Did they get me interested? FOR SURE! Did I love it? UH HUH.

Can I think critically about it and compare it to current media without necessarily coming blindly to the conclusion that G1 is the best toon ever ? YES.

I never said it was THE BEST. Animated and Prime are far better with plot. Some other things are up in the air and contested like mech design. I am a sucker for classic Japanese robots.

You are arguing with me what you wished I said rather than what I said. My comment wasn't a rant. I was just giving some of my opinions when I came across that part of the podcast. It felt like a sucker punch. I gave an example of another thing that hasn't aged well, Beast Wars. The graphics are really really dated and it hurts it. With G1 it is the plot that hasn't aged well, with Beast Wars, its the animation. Yet no one sucker punches Beast Wars for its dated graphics/animation then call their fans basically idiots for liking it. However, G1's animation has aged very well (when there isn't an animation error mind you). Its very classic. I like it.

And I am not saying you should like G1 or anyone on here should. In fact the whole Transformers community could hate G1, it doesn't effect me. We are a big boat of fans and its cool that we all like transforming robots regardless of the era. That is how I feel at least.

Motto:"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly; the ill deeds along with the good, and let me be judged accordingly. The rest ... is silence."

Weapon: Twin Shock-Concussion Missiles

Dammit ... I feel like there are some major misunderstandings about the podcast staff's views on G1. I loathe the term "geewunners". People who use that term are most likely blind to the fact that just about everything in today's market was spawned from G1. I love the G1 cartoon. I know these guys do as well. But we do not just blindly love it. G1 has a TON of flaws. But I love it, flaws and all, and I imagine just about everyone on the podcast feels the same way. The flaws are part of its enduring and entertaining value to this day.

I'm listening to the podcast right now so that I can piece together the misunderstandings some of you guys are having with what was said.

At the end of the day, you're either a Transformers fan or you're not.

Splintering the fandom into smaller segments based on what you like, what you don't like, which iteration you grew up with ... it's just plain silly.

There is no one single iteration that is perfect. G1 gets so much attention, not just because it was the first, but because a lot of the people currently working in the media industry that brings us comics, cartoons etc grew up with it.

I accept the G1 cartoon for what it was - a great and unique cartoon for its time which is still fun to watch if you don't take it too seriously. It's unfair to compare it to newer shows too much because animation and storytelling have both changed. Having said that, there's aspects about Transformers Prime I don't like, from the most annoying cast of TF humans I've ever seen to a pretty weird Unicron angle. There will never be a perfect Transformers show but I am glad they are still making them, and that would have never happened without G1 laying the groundwork.

datguy86 wrote:This is the second TFCC toy named after a vibrator, yes?

Sorta. Twas mostly in the UK stuff and after he came back to life via Nucleon near the comic's end. Other than that, he was kinda just like what Jazz was to Optimus in the cartoon. He had a presence, but wasn't used that much.

With that said,

burning_sirius wrote:Saber, I thought about Prowl's 'lack of accessories' but I feel as I always have felt. My earlier reply was mobile and some just quick jots. MP G1 is an homage to Diaclone. I feel they had to 'cut' Prowl for budgetary reasons (they wanted him within a certain price point) so they didn't give him his true shoulder cannons.

But that's just it, Prowl didn't have the shoulder cannons in the cartoon. For maximum show-accuracy (which the MPs strive towards), Prowl must be "shoulder cannon-less".

burning_sirius wrote:You cannot say that Prowl's sole source of popularity (or the only reason why he got a MP) was because of Post G1 comics.

Good thing I didn't. All I said was that the IDW version is the most popular version, implying that all versions of Prowl have some fondness to them, with IDW's Prowl simply having the most.

burning_sirius wrote:Why would Sideswipe, who was effectively dumped after the Furman run, chosen to get a MP.

For Sideswipe to be the MP of the 1984 Autobot Cars, many suspected it was because of his being a red car Autobot made for the best marketability. But, I know not of the actual reasoning behind it and can only guess.

burning_sirius wrote:he is 2nd in command of the Autobots

Thanks to non-cartoon sources since Jazz and Ironhide fulfilled that role more than he did in the cartoon.

burning_sirius wrote:I joked that when Takara got the licensing deal with Lamborghini, they deleted Prowl and worked on Sideswipe instantly.

LOL

burning_sirius wrote:Prowl is iconic. His face is the inspiration for the Autobot symbol. He is a classic mech design with two features that carried onto movie Bumblebee that is a hood chest and door wings.

Indeed. His design is great, but his character didn't really stand out until IDW got their hands on him. Or at least until Furman brought him back from the dead to argue and bicker with Grimlock in late Marvel G1 (long after the cartoon was over).

burning_sirius wrote:I just get annoyed with the G1 haters.

If you haven't checked it out yet, I'd recommend looking into this topic, as it relates to such a matter as this.

burning_sirius wrote:Certainly, Energon is the worst Transformers series of all time, not the G1 cartoon.

Yup.

burning_sirius wrote:Arguably RID is the final 'Braves' series and thus is the spiritual successor of Transformers Victory and depending on how much you like Victory or Braves will determine your like of RID.

I like RiD. Moreso than Victory, though.

burning_sirius wrote:Likewise, the G1 era wasn't just the cartoon but also the comic, which everyone forgets and all the cool stories from it and how people like me who treasure a lot of characters like how the comic treated (and promoted) a lot of them beyond the cartoon like with Prowl.

There's also the post-1980s G1 fiction like from Dreamwave and, of course, IDW.

burning_sirius wrote:Anyway, I guess we are just the dead horse to beat in the community. Want a take a cheap shot at any segment of the fandom? Do it to the G1 fans. Call them GEEWUNNERS. Call their posts fanboy rants. There are people who abuse this term. I am not a 'GEEWUNNER' but it is used by people who hate G1 against all people who like G1 or only like G1. Just because you only like G1 doesn't mean you are a GEEWUNNER. The rest of the fandom is immune from being prodded at in this manner (they don't get a catchy insult to apply to them). It is hard to get used because of the rich history of G1 and how it permeates every aspect of the brand. I love new stuff don't get me wrong.

I love Animated, I love Prime, I am meh about Beast Wars, and I grew up with it as a kid and everyone makes it more than what it is. But I am gradually getting used to the occasional not so subtle jabs at G1. I think Bayformer fans get more respect on here than we do, or at least people are not as malicious with it (maybe because of bitterness with another person idk). There is a difference between a good laugh and a sharp barb.

If you love anything non-G1 in addition to G1, you are no Geewunner.

A Geewunner is simply any fan who loves only G1 and despises any and all things to come after it. But seeing as you like Animated and Prime, you don't fall into that category and shouldn't be labeled with such a derogatory term.

burning_sirius wrote:I gave an example of another thing that hasn't aged well, Beast Wars. The graphics are really really dated and it hurts it. With G1 it is the plot that hasn't aged well, with Beast Wars, its the animation. Yet no one sucker punches Beast Wars for its dated graphics/animation then call their fans basically idiots for liking it. However, G1's animation has aged very well (when there isn't an animation error mind you). Its very classic. I like it.

In my case, I like Beast Wars' 90's CG animation since it has a certain charm and retro feel to it. I even like the animation much-hated Voltron: The Third Dimension cartoon.

What many people who criticize the animation of fully-CG cartoons fail to realize is that they're not supposed to look like real life since they're cartoons. Cartoons are supposed to resemble cartoons. If one wants to make something that looks like live action, then they'd just be better off making it in live action (and perhaps with CGI as an aid to the live action, rather than as its superior).

Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'

Motto:"To be a true Transformers fan you must hate everything that is Transformers."

Weapon: Null-Ray Rifle

Interesting topic Saber! Thanks for the link. Its interesting to get their perspective on the franchise. I didn't want to over react or start something but I wanted to be a part of the discussion with respect to G1 vs GEEWUN vs G1 hate. The reactions are all over the place. I definitely put RID/Unicron Trilogy's mech design near G1, yet people hated the G1 'mech' design over RID (even though RID cannibalized many G1 figures) and Armada (which were not as clean with all their animated kibble for all to see... 100% show accuracy!). Others like the Bayverse and its more 'organic?' feeling TFs. I can see that. Bayformers is definitely the most unique aesthetic in Transformers so there isn't going to be much over lap from them with those who are fans of G1.

Anyway, thanks for being bros. I didn't want to be 'that guy' who stunk up a thread. I just wanted a legit discussion on something that popped up in the podcast.

Note, I liked the rest of the entire podcast. You all did a great job! You inspired me to do some things I was thinking about doing to help focus/trim my collection. You all are the only tf podcast I listen to anyway.

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