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October 20, 2004

Should we have to work twice as hard as white folk for the same results?

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"Have you forgotten that once we were brought here, we were robbed of our names, robbed of our language, we lost our religion our culture our God and many of us by the way we act we even lost our mind"

These truthful and powerful words spoken by the late great Dr. Khalid Abdul Muhammad and used on the P.E. track “Night of the living basehead” came to mind when I sat down to write this.

It has become clear to me that some Negroes have given up, they have lost focused and are now participating in the intellectual destruction of Black unity. Recently Scott of the Negro-Con group Conservative brotherhood hood wrote on his Blog;

“We learned it from out fathers and mothers, works twice as hard because racism exist, keep your nose clean because the criminal justice system can't get justice for the black man, suck it up when you work harder and get less than your white co-workers, life is hard but you have everything you need to succeed inside you.”

What we have here is a Negro-Con admitting to the existence of racism in America, the problems it pose and a somewhat clear understanding of how it adversely affect Black men and women. His understanding of racism in America is negated by two things; His unwillingness to see the need to continue fighting against racism and his inability to see how reactions from racism contribute to the problems plaguing the Black community and Black family.

Negro-Cons are quick to say racism exists but they are as quick to say Black problems and issues are caused by us. Negro-Cons believe that Black men and women having to work twice as hard as white folk is ok, and a reality we have to live with and this phenomena should not be challenged. The ignorance involved in this belief is immeasurable. They expect us to sit back while white folk are structurally empowered to get ahead and our lack of structural support and in fact structural disempowerment means we should be ok with working twice as hard as others have to, while simultaneously measuring our success rate with the same means white success is measured. Does that make sense? How can anyone admit to historical and present day white structural empowerment and racism honestly compare our condition to theirs using the same measuring stick?

The worst part about the Negro-Con that admits that racism exists and that white folks are structurally empowered is they do not see the correlation between black poverty, crime and system dependency and the phenomena of white structural empowerment and racism. Why would anyone believe that the state of Black folks in America is due to some lack of personal responsibility and not a reaction from being disempowered structurally and reactions to white racism and white supremacy. This understanding is elementary; as brother Noah has stated, the see-saw effects of capitalism and white racism dictates that white rise is rooted in the fall and beating down of others.

We have millions of examples of the lack of personal responsibility demonstrated by white folks so any belief that black problems are rooted in the lack of personal responsibility would have to mean white success is rooted in their great sense of personal responsibility and this is not the case. The argument about the lack of Black personal responsibility is baseless and racist and ignores the fact that our present day condition is the result of our past experience up to this day in America and that structural empowerment for whites creates an illusion of personal responsibility by whites.

If one can admit to white structural empowerment and white racism in this day, then how can they ignore or miss the manifestation of its effects and reactions expressed in the life of those who are victims of it.

62 Comments:

Yes…such is an enigma to say the least. They acknowledge that racism exist, but are yet to quantify its impact upon black people in order to differentiate the effect from personal irresponsibility. The truth is that everyone and every ethnicity or race has a certain degree of irresponsibility and problems that are of their own making. However, whites and NegroCons are propagating the belief that blacks have more problems born from irresponsibility than other groups and that is what is perpetuating our lagging conditions. But they fail to mention just why it is that blacks are so self destructive relative to other groups. Is it genetics or is it simply a symptom and reaction to white supremacy upon them?

The truth of life is that it is a competition. The nature of competition is to win and to get the status and rewards from victory. Thus, working harder will not close the gap because when we work harder, whites work harder to try and keep supremacy of condition over blacks. Remember, blacks have been the traditional bottom of the barrel and if whites are not doing better than blacks, us being inferior and all, then their stature is deflated along with their egos that make them think they are superior over us. This is where racism comes in to their advantage, to help keep us down.

Think of it like sprint competition, where blacks have to start further back than whites. Now, assuming that whites want victory, they are going to expell as much energy as possible to secure it, if the fill threatened by blacks. Thus, you have whites expending equal energy as blacks, which means that the gap from the start can never be made up unless blacks are actually SUPERIOR. If blacks are expelling as much energy as possible and in turn whites do the same in order to maintain their lead, only the reality of black superiority will allow blacks to pull even or ahead or even gain ground for that matter.

The truth of the matter is and we all know here - those of us that stand at odds with the Scotts of the world - that the B-CON position is the one of resignation and defeatism.

They are resign to let White Supremacy and the old Slave Master Power Relationships stay intact. They feel defeated in terms of their lack of vision and insight into what must be done to eradicate the effects of racism and White Supremacy, because they are afraid or determine not to make the sacrifices and risks involved with such an undertaking.

As much as I hate to use cliche' terms, the are the epitome of SELL OUTS because they resign themselves to think that because we can be "successful" then, like their White Masters, they feel that that's enough. "That's all master is willing to give us" they, in effect, reason so we should make the best use out of it and stop at that. Notice, again, as much as they claim to admit they acknowledge racism and are set against it that Scott, HiREZ, etc. have no plan or idea that speaks to doing anything about it.

NOAH, I say in general people like to claim they believe certain things but in fact merely acknowledge things like racism in name only. Their response betray them because they act like all the racism, etc. are of NO CONSEQUENCE and, as you say, they act as if it has no effect on anything. They are too well schooled, to their intellectual and logical detriment, in White Western compartmentalization - isolating phenomenon that have direct correlating relationships.

I've been meaning to speak on this concept for a while.I'll come back after I gather the articles I was going to reference...

This is the unintended consequence and twisted side-effect of an otherwise persevering ethic. It's the product of just doing and thinking things because that's the way it's always been.

Well, our American experience and reality has and continues to be one tainted with White Supremacy so... so many thoughts that we think and have thought are suspect for being tainted by it.

The Negro-CON's not only can't be consistent but they can't be honest. They believe as their masters do (or as their masters tell them to) that racism is of no effect. The idiotic equation this thinking is based on amounts to this:

Slavery = White Supremacy/racism Segregation = White Supremacy/racism

The subsequent thought is that since both systems have ceased to be that White Supremacy also has declined in significance if its at all relevant. That is to say that only systems like Slavery or Segregation really represent White Supremacy. That's really simplistic, flawed and false thinking. The type of thinking that shows they have no freakin clue in the first place.

Faheem, perhaps you can do a piece on this:http://www.faireconomy.org/press/2004/StateoftheDream2004_pr.html

A few points from it (and yes Scott, like HiREZ, another brother similar to you in his views and similar in his citation theft - aka PBS Race: The Power of Illusion (Powell)):

* For every dollar of white per-capita income, African Americans had 55 cents in 1968 – and only 57 cents in 2001. At this pace, it would take Blacks 581 years to get the remaining 43 cents.

* While white homeownership has jumped from 65% to 75% since 1970, Black homeownership has only risen from 42% to 48%. At this rate, it would take 1,664 years to close the homeownership gap – about 55 generations.

Now, when Scott and all similar or OFF-shoot, Bow-Down Hankerchief Head Negroes can illustrate how anything they propose as a plan realistically can off-set and drastically reduce either of those 581 year or 55 GENERATIONS calculations then - when they can put forth a substantive, based on facts, reality and the mathematics of the situation and ALL of the dynamics - they can substantiate their claims and make a persuasive argument.

But they know and we know that they know they don't have an argument that can within scrutiny. That's why Scott resorts to what I have called both WHITE BOY and Rookie Tactics wherein all he ever aims to do is assert what 'our' beliefs are without ever engaging anything we actually say because he knows he can't logically contend with it.

The same was/is true of HiREZ... He's a brother who claims that he embraces both liberal and conservative values but most of all sees what he calls, fancifully, "HYPER-Capitalism" as the key to do reach "parity", something Scott would perhaps call being "competitive".

I bring him up because their philosophies and antagonistic personas basically mesh, they just dress them in different wrappers. They both preach about "winning", in essence, but apparently have no idea of the Horse & Carrot ride their view of merely "working on ourselves" only lends itself to passive acceptance of White Supremacy and a perpetual second-class status by choice due to their fear and cowardice - their lack of will and intellect in actively fighting against White Supremacy.

So, SCOTT... What does your "Plan" do in terms of taking into account the statistical realities from the source I listed above? How do you counteract those numbers? What mitigating factors - i.e. White people doing any and everything to maintain their Power & Privilege EVEN while granting (surface) concessions and those manuevers against the backdrop of the changing demographics, etc. - does your "Plan" take into account when and if you try to claim that you can hyper-accelerate our achieving "parity"?

This is Leonard Pitts Jr.'s take on "Working Twice As Hard" (taken from his commentary on the Bill Cosby fiasco):

"The calculus of the freedom struggle once required, demanded, that we constantly prove our worth. Conversely, some people -- black and white -- began to romanticize black folk, idealize us, as if the very fact of long suffering made us better, nobler. Such thinking was considered a sign of enlightenment. Actually, it was just a quieter bigotry that suggested we had to be better in order to be equal. It never allowed us to be simply human with all the frailties that implies."

Referencing the unquestioned 'tradition' a Black DEMOCRAT (social/religious conservative, I suppose) calls Working Twice As Hard "our way" or simply the way we had to make it:

“Affirmative action is like you feel like someone is giving you something,” he says. “We always worked and we never wanted anyone to give us anything. We endured kind of like making our own way.”(from this story titled: "Black GOPs Are An Anomaly - Even Within Families")

Do you ever sit back and figure that since the "Negro-Con" is often repudiated by the Black community and thus has no elected power within our community that this "Negro-Con" is not the force that is leading the community astray?

Somehow though the "Anti-Negro-Con" manages to escape all blame for their leadership. In every major Black population center there is a "Anti-Negro-Con" who is maybe the mayor, city council president, school board president, state senator or US representative. Yet despite this fact they escape inspection from the masses as the finger of blame gets pointed to "da man" and the "Negro-Con". Do you feel coonned at all?

In my view the one thing that is going to force the Black community to change is when some other melinated group (Indians, Caribbeans, Asians) comes to this country and does everything that these "Anti-Negro-Cons" say is not possible because of the legacy of racism in this country. Conscious Black people will take a step back and realize that they have been bamboozled for too long and begin to abandon the condition of "Conditioned Hopelessness" that has plagued our community for too long. It is the lack of INTERNAL action and the construction of a LOCAL ECONOMY that is our biggest problem and not RACISM.

[quote]Negro-Cons are quick to say racism exists but they are as quick to say Black problems and issues are caused by us. Negro-Cons believe that Black men and women having to work twice as hard as white folk is ok, and a reality we have to live with and this phenomena should not be challenged. The ignorance involved in this belief is immeasurable. They expect us to sit back while white folk are structurally empowered to get ahead and our lack of structural support and in fact structural disempowerment means we should be ok with working twice as hard as others have to, while simultaneously measuring our success rate with the same means white success is measured. Does that make sense? How can anyone admit to historical and present day white structural empowerment and racism honestly compare our condition to theirs using the same measuring stick?[/quote]

Your willingness to mischaraterize people has always amused me Faheem.

If you can find one Black person living in America who does not know that people are aware of their race and that they apply their own biases to this awareness please find one for me.

The issue is not about the ABSENCE of racism. The issues is having a solid internal plan to deal with the realities that we face.

The struggle to end all racism, everywhere will be about as effective as having a traffic cop on the African tundra trying to enforce a law that lions are no longer allowed to eat zebras and caraboo.

The fact of the matter is that non-melinated races owe their survival to preventing massive fusion of genetic coding with melinated people (better known as mating). I would like for you to tell me the day that these people are going to yeild to a law of universal fairness that you aspire for that will put YOUR fairness above THEIR will to perpetuate their race.

IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

How about achieving a playing field in which the most aggregious acts of racism has consequences and then having YOUR PEOPLE put forth a plan of action to build the society that they want among themselves?

In this country we don't have to worry about foreign invaders, sewage systems and where our next meal will be coming from. We are operating from a platform that is stable enough to create certain processes for living within and then migrating to a new land if needed AND EXECUTING THESE SAME PROCESSES AGAIN.

Now please tell me where this passage falls in line with the stereotypified "Negro-Con" (and I reject that label) that you have painted.

I think you are mischaracterizing why we Anti-NegroCons are always lamenting about the existence of racism. The primary reason that we talk about white racism is not because we think that white folks are going to read it and change their ways. We all know that most racist white folks can’t even see their own racism, let alone feel a need for change. Furthermore, their changing would go against the grain of why they were so racist in the first place…which is to lift their selves up by putting others down. Thus, the anti-Negro-Con has clearly managed expectations about the elimination of white racism…thank you. We do not need you to tell us this.

The reason that we anti-Negro-cons talk about racism is only to EXPLAIN the current reality. It’s simply a major factor in the chain reaction of cause and effect temporally which accrues to the present. Thus, what it simply represents is called the TRUTH. The major gaps between blacks and whites are the product of white racism. To talk about our problems absence the history and presence of white racism defaults the cause of the problem to blacks themselves or black inferiority. Blacks need to continue to realize that the present is the creation of the past and we need not internalize our position and sulk in a sense of racial inferiority which manifest in the disrespect and lack of confidence of other black life besides our own. Will some people see this history as a crutch….sure? Will some people see this history as a motivating and driving force to unify and struggle because of this…..sure? I am one of the latter and so is my fellow senior fellow at the black introspection think tank, Brother Faheem. Regardless, of the methodology of solution, one has to always lead with the TRUTH in regards to the cause.

I am not totally anti-Negro-Con. I am only against the anti-negro-cons who believe in assimilation away from blackness and black unity. Those folks who are simply the mouth piece of white conservatives who use them as proxy to speak out against the black masses, because they don’t want to be seen as racist.

In regards to your theory or colored folks coming over here and following the NegroCon script to success over the African Americans that would not be apples to apples comparison. I can take a group of elite African Americans and plant them in any nation, and watch them do better than the average population in their new country. The black Americans living in South Africa have a much higher standard of living than the Native South Africans. This is true to such a degree that many black South Africans resent them and say they are taking away opportunities. However, if you would take all of black American and put those in SA, their standard of living would fall into norm, with the natives. The point being that you cannot compare an elite subset with the totality of the whole of another population group.

|| Do you ever sit back and figure that since the "Negro-Con" is often repudiated by the Black community and thus has no elected power within our community that this "Negro-Con" is not the force that is leading the community astray? - PEG K||

PEG K...Do you ever stop to think that no self-respecting Black person is going to by you're Awfully WHITE underlying assumptions?

[1] That someone - some force - is "leading" the Black community astray.QUESTION: Astray by whose standards? Astray from what?

That bring us back to the same fundamental question of whether Black folks conditions/problems are self-created or not. Your racist presumption and your White Supremacy imposition is that it is despite all your feigned acknowledgement of institutional racism. SHOW US HOW the institutional racism you claim to acknowledge is of some consequence. That is, show what that means when you agree that it exist. I don't believe you want to say it exist in a vaccuum that doesn't impact real people lives... so you have something to reconcile. NO LIP SERVICE ALLOWED!

It couldn't be that Paternalistic and clueless, dumbazz White people who feel they have a reason to comment - i.e. make unsolicited suggestions - on issues that relate to Black existence/experience represent a misguided ideology and pathology of White Supremacy buttressed by the societal structure that makes them feel, even in their ignorance that they have something worthy of consideration to tell Black people.

PEG K... What really do you feel is your purpose?This sh*t for sure isn't "complimentary. And you for damn sure aren't qualified due to your fallacious notions to even begin to comment about Faheem, Negro-CON's or anything else. You Frame Of Reference f@cks you up from jump. And that's going off things you try to admit to but can't maintain throughout conversations here. Too many false pretenses from you, my friend.

I want everyone to take note of Renaldo’s words and attitude and refer back to a question I asked back on Sept 8, 2004 on this forum. I asked all that read my words “Is the structural racist system in America “Fait Accompli”. Some may have not understood what I was asking when I first wrote it but now Renaldo presence here has given that question more relevance. Here is what Renaldo wrote;

“The struggle to end all racism, everywhere will be about as effective as having a traffic cop on the African tundra trying to enforce a law that lions are no longer allowed to eat zebras and caraboo.”

It is defeatist attitudes and beliefs like this that weakens our people. Renaldo and other Negro-Cons accept as most men and women do that white racism is a reality but they have went a step further in saying that struggling against it and seeking its destruction is futile, a waste of time and that they would rather us all accept the principles of white supremacy and work twice as hard to keep our head above water and work twice as hard on our personal responsibilities to keep our head above the water. That is a defeatist attitude if I have ever seen one.

Also take note that he did not deny any of what I said he tried to talk around it or otherwise obfuscate and change the subject.

You can reject being called a Negro-Con Renaldo but this word more than any describes you and the majority of those Negro men and women that capitulate to the whims of white intellectual racism.

Peg K, I think the reason people react negatively to you here is because this is percieved as a black space. Could you imagine, me as a black person, going into a Hispanic space, and insisting that they should all never speak any language other than english?

Even if I think that would be best for that(I don't in real life), they might react negatively, because it's not my place to tell their group what they should do, or what is best for them.

That's why often whites, even well meaning ones, may meet some resistance in black spaces. At least that's my theory.

Does NOT mean that the work is done. Does not mean that parity has been achieved.

But it does mean that people are working towards those ends, and progress is being made. - PEG K ||

You're gonna have to do way better than that.If you're going to citing something that is suppose to support your reservations then you need to cite something that's relevant or comparative. YOU DID NOT!!

Nothing in "those stats" I cited said "that people are[n't] working towards those ends, and progress is[n't] being made". In fact, it accurately depicted such "progress" is worst than SNAILS PACE!!! But in the abstract and absolutes, of course, you could say "progress is being made".

Now come with a defense or DENIAL that not so weak and flimsy. If you want to debate or question the stats I cited because it disrupt the Necessary Illusions you embrace to keep up your facade... then debate the stats on the terms of the things presented. Comparative and contradicting stats from the same data is the easy way to do that. DO YOU HAVE ANY??

We both know the answer is no... rendering your unsolicited comments (as if I care whether you think the stats are accurate) MOOT!!

MY CITED STATS:"While white homeownership has jumped from 65% to 75% since 1970, Black homeownership has only risen from 42% to 48%. At this rate, it would take 1,664 years to close the homeownership gap – about 55 generations. "

FROM YOUR (1st) SOURCE ARTICLE:"About 68% of Americans own their homes, but the Census Bureau reports that ownership among blacks and Hispanics is about 48%."

Hmmm... Obviously they're both based on the same stats. And the study I cited obviously accounted for increased growth (42% - 48%) in assessing what the rate of growth would be. So what is it that you doubt about it the stats besides the fact that it does fit what you like to promote?

Lay out your math. Your White Supremacy may think Black people are suppose to glory in any and every little piece of (relative) "progress" but all you do is show your desire to maintain and preserve White Supremacy when YOU don't firmly and actively support right here, right now the necessary measures to strike a balance and "parity" in the mean-time!

MLK talked about White Moderates - aka those who like to pretend that they are friends of Blacks - with their warped sense of GRADUALISM.

SORRY FOR MY MISTAKEN ATTRIBUTION of this tainted "gem" of RENALDO's to Peg K.

"Do you ever sit back and figure that since the "Negro-Con" is often repudiated by the Black community and thus has no elected power within our community that this "Negro-Con" is not the force that is leading the community astray?"

Maybe it was the penchant for making ignorant, untenable assumptions - underlying ones that are mostly unexamined and falsely assumed to be true (until I explode them) - that confused. lol

Renaldo... You're an intellectual midget... Please play with kids your own size. This is a Grown Folks Blog.

“Do you ever sit back and figure that since the "Negro-Con" is often repudiated by the Black community and thus has no elected power within our community that this "Negro-Con" is not the force that is leading the community astray?”

Renaldo,

You are reading the words of someone that is the opposite of a Negro-Con. The opposite of a Negro-Con would be a Progressive Black man or woman that work toward the uplift of African people where ever we are and have not nor will he or she ever bow down to white supremacy and the structural racist system in America.

The anti-Negro-Con that is a politician does not escape blame, when he or she is found to be in error, he or she will be chastised; however this is another intellectually lazy attempt by you to obfuscate. Negro-Cons are not spoken about on this Blog simply to blame them for one thing or another; they are spoken about because they have allowed themselves to become the mouth piece for white rule and simply parrot the arguments framed in white think tanks. Not one Negro-Con have an original thought, all of their stances are derived from their white counterpart in their various think tanks. Furthermore Negro-Cons try to frame Black issues around the political system i.e. Liberal versus Conservative. This is just more divisive garbage espoused by Negro-Cons when they know as I do that our problems are not rooted in a ten percent philosophical difference between Democrats and Republicans. Furthermore those Anti-Negro-Con politicians are working on behalf of our people and do not parrot intellectual racist ideology conjured up by the Heritage foundation, the Hoover institute and other white think tanks.

"The issue is not about the ABSENCE of racism. The issues is having a solid internal plan to deal with the realities that we face. - RENALDO"

On that we all agree, Renaldo. FAHEEM has said that emphatically. However, that has nothing to do with removing or eradicating the effects of racism/White Supremacy.

No internal plan can be "solid", effectual or permanent when you allow the structural realities of America's racialized inequalities to just exist because of a sentimental desire to "Get Yourself Together".

It's utterly ridiculous for Black people to be that proverbial neighbor who pays for their cable TV so to speak while their WHITE neighbor via White Supremacy and racism taps their line and get cable for free off Black people and Black people just accept that as the arrangements just because White people have always done it and won't change...

Even "cable TV" (and in analogous reality perhaps many other utilities and luxuries) has real economic consequences and other ramifications that go beyond just the mere theft of services. While you're talking about, in essence, Black people getting their act together, its counterproductive to foresake - because of the historical and present bullying of White Racism - and forego the necessary confrontation to end the bullying theft and change the standing relationship instead of showing cowardice and lettin' that sh*t go.

... Letting Whites just skim sh*t right off the top ...

And this is the "New Leadership" B-CON's are like their accomodationist brothers in the Old Guard Traditional Civil Rights "Leadership". You accept what the system allows for and what Whites dictate they will "allow" you to do. You hear and obey...

They say... "Sh*tttttttttt!! You better get on some "personal responsibility". We'll take your taxes but you ain't got nothing coming until and unless we say so." Stupid Negro CON, "We can't expect the gov't to "fix" our problems."

Malcolm X: "The Ballot or the Bullet"http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/malcolmxballot.htm

"The social philosophy of black nationalism only means that we have to get together and remove the evils, the vices, alcoholism, drug addiction, and other evils that are destroying the moral fiber of our community. We our selves have to lift the level of our community, the standard of our community to a higher level, make our own society beautiful so that we will be satisfied in our own social circles and won't be running around here trying to knock our way into a social circle where we're not wanted. So I say, in spreading a gospel such as black nationalism, it is not designed to make the black man re-evaluate the white man -- you know him already -- but to make the black man re-evaluate himself. "

Read the whole speech. If you believe in black nationalism as you say you do then I think you guys have lost your way. Malcolm was about actions buy us, voting (which you are against), fixing up our own communites, being responsible etc etc.

We know how we got here, the question is how do we get to a better place. And that is what the Conservative brotherhood is about. Lashaw focuses on religion, I focus on education and economics. But at the end of the day, we can only save ourselves others can't. And since we are twice as far behind yes we have to work 4 times as hard to catch up. And if you aren't willing to do that (which you say you are not) then get used to second class citizenship. Well Homey don't play that.

Well, certainly those quotes are indeed the verbiage of Malcolm …no doubt. However, just like the quote of MLK JR’s, I have a dream speech; it is taken out of the totality of the man. Malcolm also talked about many of the things that we talk about on this forum. He did not give white racism a free pass, in regards to explaining the condition of black people in America. Thus, you suggestion that we are off base Black Nationalist is erroneous.

Nowhere have you pointed out where any of us have said that there is nothing that black people should not strive to better ourselves. I think that is implicitly understood that all groups of people need to strive for self betterment and that all groups of people are to a degree their own worst enemy. What we disagree with is the notion that black people are our own worse enemy, as a consequence only of internal factors, more so than any other groups of people.

Indeed, contradicting to your theory I have presented many things that black people need to do, many of which you simply choose to ignore or disagree with. I touched upon black women and marriage. I touched upon credit and keeping good credit. And I most recently commented on additions to TV. So you are a complete liar to characterize this blog as not focusing on blacks and what we have to do to better ourselves.

I almost busted a gut laughing when you characterized the Conservative Brother hood. To say that Lawshawn is the religious wing of the brotherhood makes me want to puck….and to say that you are the economic wing, when you have not even demonstrated cursory understanding of Keynesian or Classical economic theory triggers my regurgitation reflexes as well.

A Scott, I guess you skipped right over this part of his speech that literally destroys your whole position and participation in politics.

"I'm not a politician, not even a student of politics; in fact, I'm not a student of much of anything. I'm not a Democrat, I'm not a Republican, and I don't even consider myself an American. If you and I were Americans, there'd be no problem"

Malcolm never voted a day in his life, voting was not allowed in the NOI and its members were told not to when Elijah Muhammad was in leadership. While we embrace all that Malcolm said in your post and know it does not negate anything we have written on this Blog, your position is in direct contradiction with what Malcolm stood for.

How you can dare try to invoke Malcolm X now while living in complete ignorance that we come from that School Of Thought is simply amazing.

What's more amazing is the idea that by merely suggesting what Malcolm X was about while ignoring the fact that he would never let White Supremacy off-the-hook and was never resigned to the fact White Supremacy and White racism was something we just have to live with... Hmmm... Why did White people say he preached hate and ahhh... aren't citing him as the paragon of "personal responsibility"?

He was about asserting our HUMAN RIGHTS to self-determination and supported hardcore Black Nationalism even if it meant separatism because he believed we should be in complete and total control of our economic and political destiny. You and your ideology most certainly does not.

Malcolm X for damn sure didn't believe one party of the other meant jack to us. He said their BOTH in CAHOOTS!!

Son! You're just now learning... Don't try to think you have lessons for the teacher! Go back to your desk.

And if you were talking to me and addressing my comments on your Blog by citing Malcolm X (and you're real dumbaZZ acting as if I haven't read 'the whole speech'), because... listen to this... "I" have never endorsed not voting.

Now, you PUNK-CONservatives champion individualism as such but I'll be damn your hypocritical aZZ can hardly address my individual points. Are you sure you're Black? I don't usually get that type of stereotyping generalizations from Black people I encounter.

But I guess you whole weak ideology is being shattered so you'll resort to anything.

There is no way you can twist Malcolm X's words to be at odds with things presented here. And you for damn sure can't twist them into being something in line with your thinking. So whatever you see valueable in his thoughts those are the very thing that are the foundation of things presented here.

Perhaps the fact that they are listed verbatim is something that makes it hard for you to understand. You have a problem with putting the right block in the right peg-hole...

You touched on something that I have questioned also, Nmaginate. That is the question conscerning scotts blackness. He has never said he was black and he has never said he was not...but he implies all the time that he is black. whites often try to gain credibility in their preaching to blacks by trying to pretend to be blacks. They think that we will simply dismiss them as racist if they reveal that they are white...so they try to be slick. What they fail to realize that we are not anti "white" we are anti the "ideology" of most whites, because it is harmful to our interest as a people. Thus, whether you are white or blacks...you come talking that BS you are going to get rejected and disrespected.

"It's So Amazing" how SCOTT can parade some selective piece from THE BALLOT OR THE BULLET (Revolutionary Black Nationalism and the meaning of it just flies right over his head) and skip right over what was said about voting... since he likes to harp on it:

"The political philosophy of black nationalism means that the black man should control the politics and the politicians in his own community; no more. The black man in the black community has to be re-educated into the science of politics so he will know what politics is supposed to bring him in return. Don't be throwing out any ballots. A ballot is like a bullet. You don't throw your ballots until you see a target, and if that target is not within your reach, keep your ballot in your pocket."

This is proof that he supported not voting and voting for those that embraced our "targeted" interest without a party affliation and to the extent that neither party adequately addresses our concerns (Vouchers anemic... racist inspired motive) then withholding our votes, keeping them in our pocket was not outside of the realm of what he advocated.

But, when it came to that... something had to give.BALLOT OR BULLET... Either peaceful, effective change or we're gonna have to do what we're gonna have to do. PERIOD!!

Who is this clown Nmaginate? Clearly part of the "Permanent Opposition, A Rebel Without A Pause And No Clear Cause"[quote]PEG K...Do you ever stop to think that no self-respecting Black person is going to by you're Awfully WHITE underlying assumptions?[/quote]

Do you have any other strategy besides telling people how BLACK you are and how WHITE I think?

I will ask you what I have always asked Noah - let's take the "checking account statement" challenge where you prove to me that your acutal actions with regard to your economic decisions in this country distinguish you as your rhetoric would have us to believe. I would gather that you purchase and support the very same corporation (cable co, gas co, etc) that you rally against at each opportunity. Let's see how many black businesses you actually spend money with. I rest easily at night with the knowedge that I am doing my part.

Appearently you and Noah are brothers in the same spirit. On the one hand to complain about the material and economic differences between White and Black and then you turn around and damn the entire system of capitalism. Please tell me which one is it?

The thing that distinguishes me from you is not that I lack one ounce of destire to help the Black community than you do. It is the fact that I am willing to put the thoughts and associations that we operate under to mroe scrutiny and dare to measure the EFFECTIVENESS of such policies.

You clearly work on the PROXIMITY theory where only those people who think as you already think can be correct. Your ultimate goal is not solutions nor UNITY it is POWER AND CONTROL over one's thoughts.

Nmaginate asks: Astray by whose standards? Astray from what?

Your inability to have any standards of your own at less say evaluating the impact of the music that our young people listen to as it relates to their ability to develop a balanced consciousness and perhaps lead them toward success in this very system that they live in (not a theoretical world) makes you GET DEFENSIVE when someone dares to question if "calling Black women bitches and thinking that you are the man for screwing a large number of them because you have spinner rims" is harmful to our young people and THAT IT VIOLATES OUR OWN BLACK STANDARDS. Instead you attempt to defend the indefinsible. Once this offending messenger has been repudiated all you have is the same bad behavior and no one daring to say anything about it lest they hear your rath.

Your words don't intimidate me my fried.

I don't strive to live up to your standards of Blackness because you have no integrity in your tools to measure such.

I know that I live at home with my two Black children and my Black wife and that MY character is imprinted upon them everyday. When they are old enough to be on their own these will be two black kids who have been shaped by me. This is the minimum that God has asked me to do.

Now if you say this is no big deal - this is what you are supposed to do - then how about turning your venom to the hundreds of thousands of young brothers who are falling below this minimum standards instead of having your guns blazing on your ego battle against me?

You will see that I admitted to confusing your quote with PEG K and began (as you even quoted DUMBASS) directing my comments as I was speaking to her while addressing your actually comments.

How about logically contending with the things I exploded as it relates to your weak assertions instead of focusing on something the documented record on this Blog says was not directed at you... or rather was written by mistake - AWFULLY WHITE was meant for White PEG K... You dumbass!!

Now actually start a post without dwelling on a tangent from your own mine and the substance of your EXPOSED fraudalent logic.

I knew that your co-conspirator theory would make its unheralded debut to this blog eventually. You were just salivating at the opportunity to present it, were you not Renaldo? Your eagerness was to such a degree that it was presented in an argument totally out of context of what was being talked about. But that does not matter. It does not matter that you are missing to point and context of what is being said. What is important to you is to get your point stated, regardless of the irrelevance to the conversations. Ahhhhh….I miss those days of discoursing with you Renaldo and your proclivity to digress off point, to obfuscate and to mischaracterize a person position simply so that you can come up with a repudiation or a counter point.

The truth is, my brother, is that you do not know what we do in our lives that does not manifest as words over the internet and we know nothing about you and what you do either. Thus, why even go to the non provable and that which cannot be substantiated? You could say that you are President Bush…who the hell knows. The only thing that’s real and can be measured here is logic and reasoning.

I guess Renaldo has an insight into our spending habits now. I did not know there was a Black gas company or Black cable company there sure are none out here on the left coast. Lets, just say you spend on average fifty to one hundred dollars more than all of us a month in Black businesses, what the hell does that have to do with yout acceptance of white supremacy and your capitulation to America's structural racist system. What was with mentioned the raising of your children, no one has challenged you as a father although we hope your children do not accept the political ideology you have. I am glad you have a Black wife, most Negro-Cons do not and since you are going to measure our philosphical posiitons by our spending money in Black businesses what do you have to say about those Negro-Cons that marry white men and women, surely they have sold completly the hell out in your eyes.

"Your inability to have any standards of your own at less say evaluating the impact of the music that our young people listen to as it relates to their ability to develop a balanced consciousness and perhaps lead them toward success..."

RENALDO,I haven't had any conversations with you that had anything to do with the music, evaluating it or the effect it has on Black youth as it relates to the "culture of hip hop" or whatever.

Your point that I addressed (again, mistakenly thinking they came from WHITE, Peg K... addressing what was your argument against the backdrop of all the things she has posted in the past) WAS ABOUT BLACK LEADERSHIP and the what I interpreted as your attitude about the misguided direction of current Black Leadership that holds "elective power"...

"Do you ever sit back and figure that since the "Negro-Con" is often repudiated by the Black community and thus has no elected power within our community that this "Negro-Con" is not the force that is leading the community astray?"

That was your comment. What's the use of citing elected power and LEADING if you're not talking about Black Leadership?

If you wanted to talk about Black youth and Rap Music or whatever being the "The FORCE Leading The Black Community Astray" then you could have and should have listed that within the context of your original post. BUT YOU DID NOT! Fraudalent PUNK!! Stop trying to change the damn subject. This is the sh*t you were dwelling on:

|| Somehow though the "Anti-Negro-Con" manages to escape all blame for their leadership. In every major Black population center there is a "Anti-Negro-Con" who is maybe the mayor, city council president, school board president, state senator or US representative. Yet despite this fact they escape inspection from the masses as the finger of blame gets pointed to "da man" and the "Negro-Con". Do you feel coonned at all? ||

Hmmm... Mighty fuckin' damn funny the misguiding force of [rap] music and its alleged bad influences on Black youth and culture wasn't mention there. Nothing but elected leadership issues.

So I guess I should call you Renaldo "The Rambling Wreck"... cause your BS just crashed!!

"You touched on something that I have questioned also, Nmaginate. That is the question conscerning scotts blackness."

Noah... I don't really care what SCOTT is.Like you alluded to "It's Not The Color, It's The CONTENT" of their analysis and the actual lack thereof.

I was, as noted, referencing a particular tactic-tendency admittedly from my anecdotal experiences.

PEG K might want to note this because she all of a sudden, IMO, wanted to feign ignorance about what White Supremacy is and means because I described her tactics as one of trying to assert her presumed White Supremacy on Scott's Blog and before then here on a Blog-thread where she told you, Noah, what "YOU and guys like you MUST do..."

She tried to feign ignorance and act as if I was accusing here of being a card carrying member of the KKK or something. Typical response... I know for a fact you brothers have spoken on White Supremacy as something beyond mere racist beliefs of "hate" groups, etc. So she can fake some other type of offense...

This blog format does not lend itself to a full discussion and a complete debunking of many of the assertions that you all make.

In reverse order for my friend Faheem[quote]Lets, just say you spend on average fifty to one hundred dollars more than all of us a month in Black businesses, what the hell does that have to do with yout acceptance of white supremacy and your capitulation to America's structural racist system.[/quote]My point was NOT about finding a Black gas company, Faheem. My point is that many of your Pseudo-Intellectual Revolutionary Black folks love to talk about the exploitative, capitalistic, oppressive policies tht this government operates on yet you are also first in line at BP Amoco to put the gasoline that is the fruit of this policy into your own car in order to MAINTAIN YOUR CURRENT STANDARD OF LIVING in America.

Yes you are correct Noah the old "Capitalist Co-Conspirator" theory rises again. You know why - because it accurately describes the behavior of you and others.

You are a FACELESS AMERICAN CONSUMER. How about accepting this and putting for a plan to change?

If this current economic system was formed by White Supremacy (and clearly it was) then your willful participation in it WITHOUT ANY PLANS TO DISENGAGE IN IT (please if you are going to quote me use both parts of my statement) is tantimount to YOU being a CO-CONSPIRATOR in this system that you condemn.

You see now Noah - this is when I break out my time line:

Blacks were brought over into this current capitalistic system under duress. There was no choice in the matter so our being a cog in the wheel of American capitalism can be excused.

Once we got freedom we had 100 years of Jim Crow. Again we did not have 100% of SELF DETERMINATION where if we wanted to disengage from this system we could not form the economic base to migrate out (as Marcus Garvey attempted to do prior to him being imprisoned by J. Edgar Hoover).

Now my friends, we are equal partners as American consumers. Though this system may not have worked for you in the area of power and wealth creation I see no movement to seperate from this same system which has it's footings within White Supremacy.

As a matter of fact you even have people like the good brother Noah complaining that in fact Black people are not allowed to operate fully in this economic system and the recent report is used as proof.

It appears to me that there is a major disconnect at the core going on here. Either you fully accept the system that you are in and play the game (game respects game) or you depart from this system - setting up a strategy where you disconnect while you are still here and then you relocate to another land.

Instead we see African-Americans as one of the biggest net consumers in America.

Step back and tell me where I am wrong.

Then tell me what magical event that will occur in the future is going to change this?

[quote]“The struggle to end all racism, everywhere will be about as effective as having a traffic cop on the African tundra trying to enforce a law that lions are no longer allowed to eat zebras and caraboo.”

It is defeatist attitudes and beliefs like this that weakens our people. Renaldo and other Negro-Cons accept as most men and women do that white racism is a reality but they have went a step further in saying that struggling against it and seeking its destruction is futile, a waste of time and that they would rather us all accept the principles of white supremacy and work twice as hard to keep our head above water and work twice as hard on our personal responsibilities to keep our head above the water. That is a defeatist attitude if I have ever seen one.

Also take note that he did not deny any of what I said he tried to talk around it or otherwise obfuscate and change the subject.[/quote]

Defeatest attitude he says.

Accept white supremacy he says.

I will kill two birds with one stone on that one. Responding to Faheem and using the city of Detroit as an example.

Recall earlier this year that there was a report that the "tipping point" for formerly all White communities was 42%. This means when the non-white population meets or exceeds this point, the white folks begin to move.

Now notice that they did not say white Republicans or Skinheads they said White folks.

Now many Black Progressives see this as a sign that American is just as racist as ever and will try to find some way of putting a stop to this. In reality they are addicted to the economic resources that derived from this community, knowing that if and when they depart the town will be left, as Detroit is today, to fend for itself without a strong tax base to PAY FOR THE STANDARD OF LIVING WHICH THESE BLACK PROGRESSVIES SEE AS THEIR RIGHT AS AMERICANS. (Notice that this standard of living is not a FUNCTION of the economic system that is able to produce this standard - it is a RIGHT afforded to these people as citizens).

After the transfer of political power has taken place not a single piece of real estate has fallen back into the ocean. All of the buildings remain intact, the same river front property and relatively the same number of people who were there before remain. The thing that has left is the economic system that used to produce wealth.

The PROGRESSIVES at "Black Commentator.COM" call this the "Flight of Capital from the Inner City".

What is shows me is that those who express resentment and distain toward this same economic system are really praying to God that they never have to fend for themselves, having to develop a FUNCTIONAL economic system that actually provides for the standard which they desire.

The solution for the Progressive in this case is to shift toward policies that aggregate tax collection at the federal government so that no person can depart to a different taxation district and excape the long arm of the taxman. In the past if they didn't like the new policies they could just pick up and leave to a place that was more in their favor. Now there is no escapiing short of leaving the counrty.

Though the PROGRESSIVE always talks about the need to develop a LOCAL ECONOMIC (and this truly is the solution) he will always choose to take that "hit of that crack pipe" and take the income redistrubition route of receiving government funds injected into his community.

White liberals such as John Kerry and Ted Kennedy (the senator who has never met a Black man who HE didn't believe needed a fish lest he starve to death) are there to "feel your pain" and throw some resources your way to have you eat for yet another day. Just don't start talking that "independence/self determination\ stuff" and you won't have a problem from them. Attempt to impose an equal footing with them and demand "quid pro quo" for your vote and boy will the true colors come out.

So back again to the main point of my post. The fact of the matter Faheem BY DEFINITION the White race is a race of people without much pigmentation to their skin. If they ever lose this or let other people politically dominate them then they by definition will cease to exist as a race. THEY WILL NEVER SUBORDINATE THEMSELVES TO YOUR WILL WHERE EVERYONE IS ON EQUAL FOOTING. This does not play to their advantage as a race.

It appears to me that this is what the "Black Progressive" is seeking yet they ignore the phenomenon of the "Tipping Point" and other evidence. Our public schools are more segregated than ever. Now people have the free will to live where they want to. Guess what - More often then not they are choosing to live with their OWN DAMNED KIND.

I propose that we demand a level playing field in the broadest sense (You cannot name one Civil Right that can truly becalled a "civil right" that I am opposed t o - Affirmative Action is not a civil right).

The part where African-Americans are failing is the second portion of the equation that complements what is above - building your own independent economic base to call your own shots.

So again Faheem - you've got me wrong if you think I am accepting a stacked deck. I am rejecting the trivial pursuit where our agenda is externally lead. Our locus of control currently resides outside of our community which is why so many folks are begging for a Kerry victory.

Yet in Atlanta along Buford Highway were the Asians have developed their own economy I don't see very many national election signs. It appears they win no matter who is in office.

There is nothing "defeatist" about my view. It is a REALISTIC VIEW my friend.

The failure of the Black Progressive is the failure to TELL THE BLACK MASSES WHAT WE NEED TO DO TO ASSIST IN OUR OWN SALVATION. Without showing the people how their own sacrifice today will lead to a brighter future and showing them the part they play in the big picture (all are needed) you will have what you have today - discontentment. The Progressive swears that they will one day have nationalism trump racism and thus they will be waiting for a long time. (Nationalism = as a citizen I am guaranteed a certain equal provision of resources)

Your ignorance assumes far too much and does not describe Faheem, Noah, Nmaginate or Black Introspection. To suggest or even allow it to enter that little head of yours that we do not offer advice beneficial to Black men and women is ridiculous. You think the absence of offering some grand solution on this blog means we do not have one. I have written several times that if we are to solve Black problems we have to get to the root cause of them. This mean before I offer a solution to be intellectually molested by Negro-Cons like you we must first agree on the cause of the problem.

If we are going to address the Black drop out rate we have to address the irrelevance of the public school curriculum to Black children and Black life. Afri-Centric schools have proven productive and beneficial but Negro-Cons are afraid to support them because they fear what their white cohort will say. Negro-Cons are afraid of supporting Africa Town because they believe it discriminates against other people. Negro-Cons spend their days looking for something wrong in Black life to expose as proof of our inferiority and a means of gaining white acceptance. Take a look around the blog sphere and see how many Negro-Cons are out there kissing the back side of white folk, it is sickening.

You have the wrong Black man if you think I am upset when white folk move the hell away from us, I say move as far away from us as you can, but I do not expect my property to reduce in value because white folk moved away or move close to. You keep offering this scenario’s that we all support and I guess your ignorance of that lies in you not reading all that we say.

Renaldo..This B.S. Co-Capitalist Conspiracy theory of yours exemplifies the manner in which you and other Negro-Cons obfuscate and seek to redirect blame for the actions of others on those who for the need and no other reason than the need to survive use the fruits of capitalism.

If we were to take your position and apply it across the board this would mean those who wear clothing, use sports equipment, wear shoes made in sweat shops around the globe are also guilty by proxy of course, of supporting sweat shops. How about that report some years ago that the Keebler Company would not allow its employees to use the restroom for eight hours that led to bladder problems for many of them and other problems, I guess if I eight one Keebler cookie or cracker I am responsible for that. Do I even need to mention the big monster Wal-Mart, shopping their means I agree with their practices as the world largest employer.

Take your gas analogy, I am a firm supporter in finding another source of energy to fuel cars, however there are hundreds of lobbyist buying off politicians that can make it possible for an alternative fuel source to be actively sought, thus if I am to survive and get out here and help our people I will use what is available to me to do that. So yea, I use the fruits of capitalism to the point that I must use them to survive and help in the uplift of Black men and women in America and in the Diaspora. There is no contradiction in what I do; my use of the fruits of capitalism in America is true to the extent that the fruits of a non-capitalist system being unavailable to me. Are you going to accuse me of breathing the same air as the racist I condemn next? Or will you accuse me of living on the same planet as those who I see as the enemy of Black rise. Maybe I should get me a space ship and go to another planet, but then you would accuse me of using the enemies’ tools to get away from the enemy. Your co-conspirator capitalist theory is garbage and deserves to be in the waste basket with the rest of the garbage espoused by you Negro-Cons. Maybe we all should take our children out of school if we think smoking is horrible and kills thousands of people, after all that big money from the tobacco companies lawsuits are being used to educate our children. I will use the fruits of the capitalist labor to destroy him and I have no shame in doing it.

[quote]Afri-Centric schools have proven productive and beneficial but Negro-Cons are afraid to support them because they fear what their white cohort will say.[/quote]

Interesting that you talk about over-generalizations. I have visited every KIPP Academy in Atlanta. These are Charter Schools located deep in the ghetto or the barrio who's job is to educate kids that have fallen through the gap of public schools. They extend the school day from 7:30pm until 6pm. They demand of the students, they demand of the parents. If a student comes late he must appologize in front of the entire class for disprespecting the policies that these others took the extra effort to abide by.

Some of the very things that you talk about that are lost because of our stolen culture and in many cases, because there is no father at home, ARE INSTILLED BY THESE SCHOOLS.

Now you talk about the "Black-Neo-Con" opposition to these schools? Please go to Jesse Jackson's web site and read about HIS recent opposition to such schools because they threaten the public schools. Jesse is speaking from the perspective of the TEACHERS UNION and not from the perspective of the parents and the best interests of the students.

You have to understand that this is what I am talking about having a constant pursuit of some theorized RIGHT despite having evidence to the contrary. How many additional generations of Black kids will be harmed before change is made by the community rather than waiting for government reform?

I SUPPORT SCHOOL CHOICE. I support an Afro-Centric school if it is true to it's self and does not just teach psychobable (Noah should know what this is because I have dialogued with him about this). If you are going to teach this person to be of historical African consciousness then it will be required that you detatch from this current environment. Capitalism was not present back then so stop faking the funk in believing that a person trained as such will compete as a consumer in this capitalistic country.

[quote] Negro-Cons are afraid of supporting Africa Town because they believe it discriminates against other people.[/quote]

You know Faheem - the more that I listen to some Black Progressives the more that I understand how mentally dependent they actually are.

I believe that I have layed out my case clearly in the post attached to this story. I FULLY SUPPORT THE CONCEPT OF AFRICATOWN. I do not support the use of government funds in a racially discriminatory manner.

MY SOULUTION - OPEN A BANK TO FUND THIS EFFORT. The money that was to be collected via taxes in Detroit and then invested into this venture need to be directed toward this private financial institution and thus not be subject to anti-discrimination standards that the Black Civil Rights Movement stood for.

I again direct you to Buford Highway in Metro Atlanta. The Asian and Hispanic community began charging a 1% local option sales tax on the stores within this shopping district. These funds will be used to build their own damned trolley system that shuttles shoppers up and down this long strip ALL WITHOUT USING GOVERNMENT FUNDING.

It is strategically flaws on the one hand to be dependent on government funds in so many other municipalities and then when you get in control of a city such as Detroit you do the very same thing that you condemned White folks for doing.

The Intellectually Honest thing to do is to actually quote what it is that you feel supports your contention and then link to it as to provide a reference of verification.

From that link, I mentioned your Conservative vs. Liberal Dichotomy, particularly as it related to Bush vs. Clinton, as "THE BETTER WHITE MAN CONTEST". Now, how you make the leap in logic that that means I advocate NOT voting is beyond me... but I'm beginning to understand. You guys that visit here have Information Processing Problems that plain logic and perspective (from me and us here) just can't help.

It's no wonder why you didn't quote me directly. You know and knew you didn't have a case. You also really do a sloppy job of quoting my comments about how Malcolm X said in THE BALLOT OR THE BULLET that, in essence, not voting was an option.

At the very best you have circumstantial evidence but nothing close to me saying I advocate not voting and that I plan to or don't vote.

You make yourself to be a sad example of someone who thinks they're smart and make intelligent decision, politically or otherwise. You can't even make smart ones about how to misrepresent someone's views. You splice my comments about Malcolm X's views and what they obviously meant and try to present them, OUT OF CONTEXT, as if that's proof of me saying/advocating not voting...

For one, it's very smart because you're doing this B*tch shit on the same Blog where the original Malcolm X content is and it even more stupid because the statement you quoted from me on your Blog is dated and timed before I ever made the Malcolm X comments. Meaning that your presumptions can only be based on the BETTER WHITE MAN CONTEST remarks I made which you were too punked-ee-fied to even quote from.

Sorry... but you gets no pay from your Igno-mercial on The Power Of Suggestive Assertions.

Renaldo, why are you talking about Jessie Jackson as if Black Introspection is his website. If Jessie Jackson site says what you say it says, then it is not in agreement with Black intrspection. I am aware of the works of KIPP and I fully support KIPP and if Jessie does not, we both have a disagreement with him Furthermore while Jessie and I agree on many things we disagree on a few things but we both agree that we should work on behalf of our people and not be found accepting things as is as you suggested earlier about fighting racism being an excercise in futility.

[quote]Renaldo..This B.S. Co-Capitalist Conspiracy theory of yours exemplifies the manner in which you and other Negro-Cons obfuscate and seek to redirect blame for the actions of others on those who for the need and no other reason than the need to survive use the fruits of capitalism.[/quote]

My friend Faheem - the "Consumer Capitalist Co-Conspiracy" theory has survived the challenge of many a Black Progressive Pseudo Intellectual. I have been to college campuses sitting in on student meetings (though I am in my 30's), I have been on many a chat board, I have ran it buy many a liberal Black friend.

I listen to all of the angles that you all attempt to refute my claim and thus far I have not had a single person WHO IS BOUND BY THE TRUTH to themselves to refute my claim.

The bottom line is - it is one thing to live within a society, knowing that you can't just up and leave because on the one hand you had no say in your arrival here and secondly you are discontent within.

It is another thing, however, to strive to fully indulge into all of the excesses that are available in this very system.

Black folks have 22's on their car, big screen televisions, a pair of brand new leather sneakers for each day of the week. You can't tell me that we are not fully indulging in this system as opposed to trying to figure a way to remove ourselves from such dependency on this system.

The use of gas from a corporation is not evidence of "consumer co-conspiracy" THE CONTINUED USE OF THIS PRODUCT OF THIS NATION'S FOREIGN POLICY WITHOUT ANY ATTEMPT TO PROGRESSIVELY REMOVE YOURSELF FROM THIS ADDICTION IS.

You do not wish to reduce your standard of living - riding a bike to work because it takes too long, not eating fruits and veggies that are TRUCKED in from Cali in the wintertime to your east coast city, etc. It is this unwillingness to degrade your standard of living that snags you into this "Consumer Capitalist Co-Conspiracy".

Cleary as you go to other countries (Jamaica where my in-laws live) you see that their standard is very much less than ours. And I am not talking about a beachside resort. I am talking about Kingston - where the tourists don't go.

The evidence of this truth is clear if you are willing to accept the truth.

As long as you attempt to maintain this high standard of living that America assures, the more costly the change of standard in departing this country for a less developed one is.

From the "PEOPLE DIED SO THAT WE CAN HAVE A RIGHT TO VOTE" Blog-thread (last two para~s):

"Well... more to the point and on the topic, MLK said (in his "I Have A Dream" speech) that "WE WILL NOT BE SATISFIED" until we have the right to vote - in the South - and we have something/someone to vote for - in the North.

Obviously, according to that elder 'who died for us to have the right to vote', just exercising that right was not enough for it to be meaningful."

-- Hmmm... Doesn't sound like I said DON'T VOTE there. --From the "The Negro Jingoist that suffers from Afro-Amnesia" thread:

[[[ Or lets make it easier what did clinton do for any Black people besides let a million die in Rawanda. ]]]

This is really stupid Scott... You want to detail what the Republican Congress did at the same time on the same issue?

Building up the Polar Dem vs. Rep Straw Man as if all that exist in the world are those Two Parties... is idiotic. You can want to believe that someone here gives a damn about Clinton and cares to defend him [...that idea] is stupid... Just because you want to defend Bush...

Thank you for you latest contribution to: THE BETTER WHITE MAN CONTEST!______________________________________________________Those are my comments from the unspecified link reference you posted. Where Oh Where is my, DON'T VOTE Clause?

[quote]accepting things as is as you suggested earlier about fighting racism being an excercise in futility.[/quote]

Had to get that jab in didn't you?

Please show me where I said this?

If you'll note I said it is worthy to fight for as much of a level playing field as much as you can expected, knowing that you are never going to get certain people to put themselves under your majority control when it is not to their advantage to do so.

I stated that once you get this field as level as it is ever going to get IT IS WHAT YOU DO FROM AN INTERNAL PERSPECTIVE WITH REGARDS TO CONSTRUCTING SOMETHING THAT WORKS IN YOUR BEST INTERESTS that come into play. The fact that you are living inside of "their container" means that you will have to respect "their" laws - which is what the orignal Africatown proposal violated.

I'll ask you again - What asside from the constant battle for "civil rights" does the current Progressive Leadership ask of the Black masses to do in direct support of their own salvation?

It appears that the fight against racism is the core of their efforts with the hopes that by relieving this racism the natural development that has been repressed will take place. Sorry to tell you that it is not going to happen unless a more "affirmative action" from with in is put forth.

Renaldo, you are smarter than that, I just intellectually destroyed your Capatilist Co-Conspiracy theory and now you come back talking about what other Black men are doing. I can assure you brother, I am not one who indulges in the materialistic behavior that is prevalent amongst our people. I believe as my brother Tavis Smiley says, I do not spend money I dont have, I do not buy things I don't need to impress people I dont like. Others may have failed at destroying your foolish theory but Faheem passed your Capatalist Co-Conspiracy theory. I stated boldly and clearly that I indulge in the fruits of capatilism to the extent that the fruits of a non-capatilist system is avaialble to me and I use the fruits of the evil capatilist to work towards his intellectual and physical destruction.

Renaldo kills me with the co-conspirator capitalistic theory. First, as I pointed out to him before, to co conspire means to participate in the planning there of. Now, as far as I know, none on this blog was born, nor their parents, to participate as a co planner of capitalism and Keynesian or Classical capitalistic economic theory. Thus, a more appropriate terminology would be that of co-participant in the game or an enabler of the game.

Secondly, one has to understand the distinction and difference between capitalism and other systems. There are many intersects or things in common in nearly all modern economic systems. Thus, those intersecting traits are practiced in Marxism, Communism, socialism or what have you. They are practiced across the board because they are universal traits rooted in survival. Thus, if one is to be a co-conspirator of capitalism, they must be guilty of doing those things that are unique to capitalism

Being a worker and consumer is universal. It is a necessity of life and survival. Thus, the fact that we work and consume while living in a capitalistic system does not make us guilty of being capitalist. Rather, it makes us guilty of trying to survive through the conduit of work and consumption. That is what people do in Cuba, China, Russia, England and all over the world. They work, consume and trade as part of life.

With capitalism being spread around the globe, how does one disengage? Freedom is measured buy the number of viable options that individuals have. Capitalism squeezes out all other viable options by attempting to promote their failure. Case In point its cold war policies with the former Soviet Union and what it currently does against Cuba, by trying to restrict trade and choke off the commerce and viability of the nation. Capitalism is like a cancer that seeks to spread and destroy health cells. Once it metastasizes there is not disengaging it.

My friend Faheem - the fact that I am able to sit in one part of the country and never having met you communicate my thoughts to you who is sitting in an entirely different part of the country is a feat that is enabled via the fruit of capitalistic investment by corporations.

Do you see this character - "@". This one bit of information just got transmitted through billions of dollars of fiber optics cables and network switches from no less than 3 companies, all of which are operating on capitalistic principles.

While you attempt to narrow my claims to one of "excess", I am stating my case from the position of ACCESS TO ITEMS OVER AND ABOVE WHAT WOULD BE AVAILABLE TO YOU, FOR A GIVEN PRICE EXCEPT FOR WHAT THIS SYSTEM CAN PROVIDE FOR YOU.

It is not about excessvie spending of money. The fact that you can purchase your Internet service for $24 per month (or what ever since you won't let me see your bank statement) instead of $200 per month is because there are companies competing with each other and getting more efficient as they push down the prices that they can offer their services to you.

There is no escaping the truth Faheem - you are a "faceless American Consumer Co-Conspirator" in this Capitalistic system.

Who passed around that Co-Conspiracy Memo because this is some CONSERVO BS from way back in the TBWT days... lol!

Now, of what relevance is this C.C.C. Theory to being against White Supremacy as expressed here? Whether Black want to be capitalists or benefit from capitalism or not has little or no bearing on whether or not to challenge the Power Relationships in White Supremacy.

Be that as it may Renaldo, You can call me a C.C.C. as Nmaginate has properly abbreviated it but truthfully if we are going to talk about my relationship with America's capitalist system it must be one of exploit-tee. I am paying a higher price than what most things are worth and definitely more than what it cost to produce them thus someone is exploiting my need for a thing for profit which of course is the bases of capitalism. So I would prefer you refer to me as a "Faceless exploited by capitalism Black man in America" because capitalism is an exploitive economic system, especially when you consider the inflated gas prices today. And this again defeats your silly assertion because our condemnation of capitalism is about its exploitive nature thus we are closer to the definition of a victim of capitalism than we are a co-conspirator in it.

[quote]Now, of what relevance is this C.C.C. Theory to being against White Supremacy as expressed here? Whether Black want to be capitalists or benefit from capitalism or not has little or no bearing on whether or not to challenge the Power Relationships in White Supremacy.[/quote]

You two kill me in that you can't even accept what is undeniably true.

Capitalism creates a certain level of wealth above other systems by it's very nature.

It is you two who's constant refrain is about the horrors of capitalism.

Now Faheem brings in the angle of White Supremacy. The fact is that if the US's actions in Iraq specifically and if this country's disposition with respect to the Middle East in general is an example of White Supremacy against other peoples then clearly again - YOU as a consumer of this very fruit WHICH WOULD NOT BE AVAILABLE TO YOU at this given quantity and prices IS A FUNCTION OF THE PRESENCE OF THIS WHITE SUPREMACY that you speak of.

It is their "power relationship" to these middle eastern countries, knowing that oil is the life blood of the United States that if one of these regimes dared to cut off the flow of oil in an orchestrated manner they would suffer the consequences of the American military.

And once again there will be Noah and Faheem choosing between regular, midgrade or premium while others plot out their strategy on how to meet the demand that you two are a part of.

Again - your acceptance or rejection of these facts do not make a difference - after all it's just talk. Only your change in consumer behavior will change it.

A communist country sent the first man into space. Facist Germany had developed such technology that it threatend to overtake the world and took a slew of allies to defeat it. Thus, Renaldo, your proposition is to have us believe that most of the modernity that we enjoy is due to Capitalism, but many of the things that we enjoy would have eventually manifested under other systems as well. It truth, one of the biggest drivers of invention is militarism. The computer evolved, not in a small part, due to the militaries need to have a super processor that could break the codes of enemies. The miliatry motive is major player in innovation. That is why old Germany and Russia were able to make lead in the invention of certain technologies. Thus, you are simply wrong Renaldo in your proposition. Being a worker or consumer in the capitaistic system does not make one a CCC...only when you employ workers for a profit does one become a capitalist. Other systems have industries that are state run and they do not seek private profiting.

Don't talk about blindness or anything else until you can have the INTELLECTUAL INTEGRITY and straighten up that junk above where you tried with your catarat-mental-walking-cane (feably blind) tactic to show where I advocated, plain, NOT VOTING.(Aren't you conservatives all about 'morality'... how about some intellectual morality here?)

You just put yourself in the Internet Hall Of Shame for that weak-azz presentation of sh*t you knew you never could get a handle on. Now Renaldo can be justified in trippin' about my perceived Blacker Than Thou-ness because SCOTT you have also received the pressed-testigous WHITE BOY TACTICS Award for your Excellence In Impotence.

As I tell your "vanilla" brethren QUOTE ME or STROKE ME! So far all you've done is the latter while attempting to bastardize the former! Ha! Ha! Ha!

I'm like damn... Having your beliefs, however different, is cool but when trying to defend yours and mischaracterize others at least have enough manhood to layout a coherent, quasi-comprehensive case.

It must really f@ck you up, huh? All the dissonance and shame that comes from pretending to despise the brothers here when all the while you can't win in any logical debate with us. I mean... if we're all wrong then you guys should be able to stick to the prescribed narrow debate laid out by the topic of the day and defeat what we have to say without Assertions From The Asinine Assumptions. You should be able to logically deconstruct our actual statements and find flaws directly in them... but you can't.

So tell us... are you here because you're our Secret Admirers? Because there is no other explanation for why none of you can make a logical case against things said here and for the fact that you keep coming back with more and more weak tactics trying to save what little face you got from all the cyber-B*TCH Slappings you and yours have received for trying to make a FORM LETTER DEBATE with your dumbass (Jesse Jackson type) Liberal vs. (Black) Conservative arguments from your e-mailed [from the White factory] TALKING POINTS Script that has never had one bit of relevance here.

FAHEEM, I long for the day when there is a Black Conservative contingent that is at least as logically accomplished as CONSERVO from TBWT. He, while sticking to his script and having his various theories like the C.C.C. Theory, he could stick with the damn debate at hand and not Dance Around Like The Wiggles (Hot Potatoe!) and try to get out from under the crushing weight of his own weak arguments. Perhaps that had something to do with the fact that he at least knew how to Stay On Point and not fall into Exaggerating Someone Else's Position In Efforts To Exhalt his own.

We need someone like him to show SCOTT & RENALDO how this debate sh*t is done. I still maintain over these years of internet travels and battles that he was by far the best and most formidable Black Conservative to ever set foot in the forum and blog-o-sphere. But then again, he was no fool of a Black Conservative. He had principled position that related to his perspective. And he damn sure made sure that no White Instigator/Detractor/Co-Signer confused what he said as some type of unconditional alliance with them and b*tch slapped the resident White female fake at the time with the fact that his perspectives where not akin to hers... So, unlike SCOTT & RENALDO, he would never allow some White interloper like PEG K to get the sh*t twisted. He would put her on notice that her views were not his and that he didn't say things that she could ever really agree with.

Like we did on the THE .Org... we need to send out an SOS for a real, principled Black Conservative. One must be out there somewhere. The mofo definitely hasn't shown up incarnate in the worthless inarticulate vessels of a SCOTT or RENALDO...

RENALDO...You have officially earned your White Boy Wings.The following thing you quoted was MY STATEMENT and not Faheem's. In fact, I addressed it to Faheem in reference to your 3-C Theory.

[quote]Now, of what relevance is this C.C.C. Theory to being against White Supremacy as expressed here? Whether Black want to be capitalists or benefit from capitalism or not has little or no bearing on whether or not to challenge the Power Relationships in White Supremacy.[/quote]

So when you said:"Now Faheem brings in the angle of White Supremacy.".... your comments used to continue to forward your on-going debate with him over the applicability or validity of your 3-C Theory... took a divergent, untenable 'angled' fork in the road to nowhere.

And if you're going to talk about White Supremacy and dare pretend to comment on the Power Relationships > I < brought up, then the focus is on the comparative relationship between Whites and Blacks, e.g., within the U.S. political world. What we have know is yet and still a derivative of the [Black] Slave - [White] Master relationship in terms of the power to completely determine one's socio-political destiny.

You CCC Theory shows that by default "slaves of the capitalist system". Certainly, as one of the brothers alluded to, there has been no Black Governing/Economic Council that determined that we would be "capitalist" as if they(we) had/have the effective choice to be anything but what the White Supremacy dominated system is.

Tell us how we could, if we so desired to be, Socialist could Blacks accomplish practicing pure or predominant socialism amongst ourselves while the larger US society practices Capitalism/Consumerism.

Hmm... Upon the Civil Rights Act, etc. there is no historical record that said that Lyndon Johnson discussed the idea with MLK that "from now on, Blacks can be socialist if you deem that necessary while us Whites will stay capitalist". "Integration" as it were was in part rationalized beyond White Fear and Anxiety because the prospect of making more 'healthy' Black consumers via "equality" would not off-set some of the discontent from disgruntly mass poor (in means and conditions via segregation of all Blacks) but also give American capitalism a boost to the extent that the Elites could manage the monster of their creation between White's Backlash for feeling "they're taking OUR jobs" and Black second-class discontent.

One of these days you'll be able to understand the Big Picture grasshopper... White Supremacy has to do with the White Elitist Power that represent those who formed this nation in that image who grant Whites as a whole the [White] Privilege to collectively have status over and above Blacks for sure.

Now, you dumbass Black Conservatives have been recruited to function as buffers for the Elite just like your White brothers. Only thing is you do it unwittingly with no meaningful reward. Your status doesn't increase or really get a position higher than anyone else (Black). There are no plans in the making for Black Conservative Suburbs... no Homestead Acts specifically for B-Con's... No redlining or GI Bills that will start by giving you B-COn's first dibs...

This is the sad state of your political prostitution.There's nothing at all wrong with conservative values - social ones. But your political affliation with something you apparent don't understand is equivalent to you going to a rave party and not expecting to get Date Raped and daring to wake up the next day and proclaim that nothing untoward happened.

Nmaginate, interesting enough Renaldo is Conservo. He is using his real name now. When he left TBWT he stop using Conservo and started going by Renaldo. No one else could come up with such a foolish arguements as the C.C.C.

Let me clarify my position. I do believe in not voting as a political strategic exercise to promote future leverage and respect by the political party that takes our vote for granted. Sometimes one has to take one step back in order to take two steps forwards. I do not promote voting when ones issues or interest is not being represented by any viable candidate. If one argues that black and white issues and interest are essentially the same…then would not white voting suffice in manifesting our goals and interest? The truth is that although there is some overlap, there is much difference in interest or means to an end for our interest, between blacks and whites and those differences are not being represented in the current two party construct.

SCOTT...You must really be a 'White Boy'(Funny... My wife watches America's Next Top Model and one of the contestants said that she was a White Girl in Black skin... Hmmm....)

Anyway... It has NOTHING to do with lawyering, Scott.In case you didn't get the word: THAT'S HOW WE DO IT on serious Black blogs/msg boards.

You assert something. Someone says your assertion isn't true. Then, if you want to maintain that it is, you provide evidence that prove you claim to be true for all that you say and claim.Now, since you failed miserably and couldn't grasp how to substantiate those claims... (Hmmm... I could swear you made an issue out of providing sources/references in support of one's argument here - your point against Noah & Faheem for not linking to sources for every opinion of theirs you took issue with that I noticed when I started to post on the Blog)

LET'S SEE YOU SUBSTANTIATE THIS ONE!

"I believe it was Noah who said not to vote, and you only agreed with him..."

It's pretty simple Scott. QUOTE ME or STROKE ME. You may have presumed that I agreed with him because of your Chronic Lumping Disorder but that would be something that implicates problems with you and NOT me. I've said emphatically that I don't advocate NOT VOTING. And you can't prove that I have except but by some fallacious Guilt By Association thingy.

You can't substantiate, prove or present anything that said I "agreed" Noah or Faheem when they spoke about NOT VOTING. That's what I've specifically taken issue with. That I do not agree with their opinions on that per se and, like anyone else, reserve my right to disagree with them and their assessment. Neither one of us, no matter how similiar our views are... are a carbon-copy of the other.

Unless you have a statement of mine that says in some way that I agreed wholeheartedly with Noah/Faheem on that issue you need to stop lying like a Face Saving B*tch and just admit that you were mistaken but thought that I "agreed"... and you can even so you thought because you perceive (in truth of your perceptions) that I agree with everything else they say.

Making excuses for why YOU DON'T HAVE THE INTELLECTUAL INTEGRITY to support and back up your claims or to admit you're mistaken when you know you have made a false presumption is the lowest thing you could ever do. It proves that you're not about any serious discussion or debate. It proves that your input is more about your ego and wanting to assert that you are "right" at all cost... even when you and the whole cyber-world knows you are wrong.

"Are you happy now?" - SCOTT

Further proof that you are too emotionally invested.Me forcing you to confront you false assertions has nothing to do with my emotions save that I hate ignorance like a sin and liars even more than that.

Scott is simply insecure and weak in his ability to articulate a tenable rebuttal that will logically contradict what we have concluded thus far. All his can do is provide links...in the hopes that those links can better articulate his position better than he can. If that is the case...then it is obvious not his position, but the position of those authors that he links to.

NmagiNATE to be honest I have a hard time figuring out you points because you are so verbose.

If you could reiterate you points in a simple point 1 point 2 etc I would be happy to reply.

But over the last two days all I have seen for you is ranting and raving (and Noah is correct I am a weak writer and my ideas are often a synthesis of other writings, I wish I could be a clever as you guys and figure everything out on my own without any input).

I never said you were a weak writer Scott...I am not one to talk because I am an atrocious speller (thank God for spell check). I do not judge what people say in regards to form, but rather by substance. It is the lack of substance in your rebuttals that I find weak...I do not care if you present it in pig latin...if it has logical and truthful premise, inferences and conclusions from your own ponderings...then that is respectable.

Save the bullsh*t... If you had any intent to "get my points" then you could simply highlight POINT BY POINT where what I said somehow confused you.

You obviously got my point about providing adequate support for your claims about BS you thought I said. BS that you assumed I said because you perceived that I "agreed" with Noah about "Not Voting". Hmmmm..... But that didn't stop you from playing the spazz and contradicting the Scholarly standards you once proclaimed to be so important.

Let's get a few things straight (in Two Points... lol): [1] I don't take anyone's statements at face value;[2] You and your presumed self-importance is not important to me.

So, when you say BS like you did:"to be honest I have a hard... because you are so verbose."; "If you could reiterate... I would be happy to reply."

(A) I'm not believin' that. (see #1 above)(B) I could give a damn if you reply or not. (see #2 above)

And all of that is in the context of this thread, making your statement that much more suspect. And there something about your own words that come back to haunt you and expose your LYING HEART.

"NmagiNATE you are boring.And I appologise for confusing Noah's or faheems postions with yours."

Hmmm.... My verbosity didn't hinder you in understanding that and finally relenting while cryin' like a B*TCH at the same time because you couldn't pretend that you had a sound reason for making what is your Chronic Grouping error(s).

So, since it takes so much out of you to admit the truth about your errors, you must be a fool if you think much of anything else you say will be treated as honest and earnest statements. And I thought you were MR. NO EXCUSES...

You sure have all sorts of excuses and rationales for why something as simple as owning up to your false statements was something that was hard for you to do without all that Face Saving garbage.

Acknowledge your errors then move to f@ck on without all the damn spoiled b*tch statements...

______At 10/22/2004 01:49:10 PM, Scott said...______"NmagiNATE.... BTW: why no comments about my post saying that Black Commentor doesn't like Africa Town."_____________________________________________________SCOTT, out of the 66 posts from the six threads that covered the AFRICA TOWN issue to my knowledge, I made only TWO [2]... 2 posts. And, only one of them had anything to do with AFRICA TOWN. And in that one my comments was directed at... you guessed it!... another one of your false pretenses. One of you're feigned objectivity as opposed to me declaring either that I fully support the controversial proposal or even saying emphatically that I thought Noah's or Faheem's points were "right".

So what is this about?

Again, I made only one [1] post that actually dealt in anyway with the AFRICA TOWN issue...So what would make you think I would have much to comment on now when I hardly commented then?

I read the BC article as soon as it came out.So what's your point? Besides something else that untenable?_____________________________________________________