Horus you're talking multiplayer, I'm talking single player. Different balances for each. In single player (I specifically said when I played campaign) the Lancer is a damned fine weapon, you never need to ditch it, ever. Multi though, like I said different balances.

Gorb wrote:

So basically you don't give two shits about gameplay, you just want the game to be as you, personally, interpret the lore?

Kinda hard to misinterpret the movie having low rate of fire/high damage bolters, Fire Warrior having low rate of fire/high damage bolters, many of the books depicting low rate of fire/high damage bolters, Dawn of War 2 having a low rate of fire/reasonable damage bolters, and this game having a high rate of fire/unimpressive damage bullet hose.

Or was I just imagining that stuff?

Gorb wrote:

The hilarious thing is that this happens all the time in the fluff, and has done for years. A single battle-brother with a heavy bolter holding the line against Orks single-handedly (random quotation). A quartet of Space Wolves destroying pretty much everything in front of them (Space Wolf).

Space Wolves are and have been **** for quite a few years now. I've written them off as tainted mutants long ago so I care not for anything related to them. They used to be really awesome too. None of the books I've read has had situations quite like that, none that I can remember at least, sure Marines get outnumbered and they give their enemies ten kinds of hell, but they get hit hard and take losses.

Sicarius tried the one man army charge against the Necrons on Damnos and damn near died because of that reckless stunt, him and the Ultramarines 2nd Company got really bloodied on that planet. They even later had to retreat from the planet as more and more Necrons awakened. Bet you'd never see that with today's codex and the master rapist behind it.

Wait, I do remember a crappy lore book. The Blood Ravens Omnibus. UGH.

Gorb wrote:

Methinks you're predisposed to complaining just because the game isn't 100% the way you want it to be.

Is criticizing a game forbidden now? Must we all accept everything at face value just because? All I'm saying simply is that I feel that the representation of the bolter is lacking compared to some of it's other appearances and I think it could use some tweaking.

It's really nothing to get into fanboy raging defense mode over (not pointed at any one person)...I just disagree with the design.

_________________Who does the Guard trust the most?AIRBORNE!Who do the ladies love the most?AIRBORNE!Who do the Xenos fear the most?AIRBORNE!

Kinda hard to misinterpret the movie having low rate of fire/high damage bolters, Fire Warrior having low rate of fire/high damage bolters, many of the books depicting low rate of fire/high damage bolters, Dawn of War 2 having a low rate of fire/reasonable damage bolters, and this game having a high rate of fire/unimpressive damage bullet hose.

Or was I just imagining that stuff?

Nobody liked the movie, nobody liked Fire Warrior, DoW II bolters are relatively rapid firing (one of the fastest-firing ranged weapons, only being beaten by Heavy Bolters, I think). The Tabletop game states them as being Rapid Fire, which means they have a burst rate comparable to say, Shuriken Catapults, which are often described (all over the fluff) as a hail of razor-sharp shards. A veritable hail.

We could argue specifics all day long, the fluff is rather contradictory ya know.

None of the books I've read has had situations quite like that, none that I can remember at least, sure Marines get outnumbered and they give their enemies ten kinds of hell, but they get hit hard and take losses.

Thanks for ignoring yet another point because "lol I don't like Space Wolves".

See this is where we get lore versus effective gameplay. Either every single Ork is a bit of a challenge and you're fighting with twenty other Space Marines who help you with the Ork infestation . . . or they make Orks that bit easier to kill and cut down on the ally help.

You also have the problem of making NPC allies too effective; the two you have are already effective enough. Of course, you wouldn't know that, as you haven't played the full game.

Quote:

Is criticizing a game forbidden now? Must we all accept everything at face value just because? All I'm saying simply is that I feel that the representation of the bolter is lacking compared to some of it's other appearances and I think it could use some tweaking.

It's really nothing to get into fanboy raging defense mode over (not pointed at any one person)...I just disagree with the design.

Criticising a game ain't forbidden at all, I believe I've stated you're entitled to your opinion several times. But hey, you could've missed me saying that. Every time.

What is more critical is your attitude to basically everything you disagree with. Anything that goes against what you believe in (Space Wolves, to use a recent example) you discard as being "****" and not worth your time.

Yeah I kind doubt that. Sure it ain't the greatest, but it ain't the worst out there.

Gorb wrote:

DoW II bolters are relatively rapid firing (one of the fastest-firing ranged weapons, only being beaten by Heavy Bolters, I think). The Tabletop game states them as being Rapid Fire, which means they have a burst rate comparable to say, Shuriken Catapults, which are often described (all over the fluff) as a hail of razor-sharp shards. A veritable hail.

Are Shuriken Catapults not assault weapons?

The DoW2 bolters still fire semi-auto, never quite going into the full auto, closer to burst. In DoW2 though, they're nowhere near the shuriken fire rate...

See this is where we get lore versus effective gameplay. Either every single Ork is a bit of a challenge and you're fighting with twenty other Space Marines who help you with the Ork infestation . . . or they make Orks that bit easier to kill and cut down on the ally help.

I'd go with option A. Black Reach scenario easily.

Gorb wrote:

You also have the problem of making NPC allies too effective; the two you have are already effective enough. Of course, you wouldn't know that, as you haven't played the full game.

Go ahead and rub it in you ass. I'm still waiting for my copy from THQ.

Gorb wrote:

Criticising a game ain't forbidden at all, I believe I've stated you're entitled to your opinion several times. But hey, you could've missed me saying that. Every time.

Yet you still attack my opinion like I'm wrong for stating my dislike.

Gorb wrote:

What is more critical is your attitude to basically everything you disagree with. Anything that goes against what you believe in (Space Wolves, to use a recent example) you discard as being "****" and not worth your time.

Everything is a very broad generalization.

With the Space Wolves, I used to like them...you know, before they went into furry overdrive. As they made that transformation I cared less and less, now I couldn't give two shits over them.

Tau got the same treatment. Remember when they were the potential good guys in a galaxy of madness? Obviously that wasn't grimdark enough and now the Tau have sterilization camps for non-Tau and are almost as omnicidal as the other races. Great.I still like them, but I look at them like the Old Tau, the naive relatively good guys...sort of.

Almost the same deal with Ultramarines. I've always liked them, over a decade now at least...before the dark times...before him. I still like pre-Ward Ultras though.

In the past I've been very vocal of my hatred for Necrons. Even that passed once I read some lore about them, and the Fall of Damnos novel. That book got me to stop hating them, hell I even started to like them.

Don't even get me started on what they did to Ollanius Pius...

But I'll agree, my attitude can suck sometimes, I'm a miserable ****, especially after not being able to sleep for 30+ hours.

_________________Who does the Guard trust the most?AIRBORNE!Who do the ladies love the most?AIRBORNE!Who do the Xenos fear the most?AIRBORNE!

1. I've never seen the Ultramarines movie, but everyone I know was too busy criticising it to get around to discussing the positives. I'm usually reserved on the subject (having not seen it), but when someone quotes it at me as "proof" then I get a bit itchy.

Same goes for Fire Warrior, even though I stalwartly love that game. Plasma Gun wheeeeee.

2. Shuriken Catapults are Assault weapons, however Rapid Fire weaponry has a similar rate of fire under certain circumstances, according to Tabletop rules (urgh) and also fluff. Bolters are burst weapons, that's for sure. They function like that in Space Marine as well.

3. Space Wolf is an incredibly popular series (at least the first four books are). When another pair of authors take over from William King, the quality diminishes somewhat. Again, this is your "I personally don't like it so therefore it's not worth anything in a debate". I don't like the look of the Ultramarines movie, does that mean I simply ignore your point? No, I had to address and counter.

4. You'd go with the first option that I proposed, sure. I'm sure there are more who share your viewpoint. Other people wouldn't. Game developers probably wouldn't, due to the amount of stress that would put on hardware (they'd have to sacrifice model quality, given that the game is developed for consoles), as well as the game design issues it would introduce (uber NPC allies of awesome merely being one such design flaw).

5. I attack your opinion because your examples are flawed and your reasoning is, in my honest opinion, terrible. You also seem to have some kind of a love of swearing at Games Workshop like it's the cool thing to do.

6. "everything" is the word I chose because I can't think of a time in this thread you respected the other person's opinion without swearing at something or saying "yeah but that sucks". If you could find an example, I'd be much obliged.

Space Wolves have always been lupine in their nature. Wulfen have existed for yonks. Leman Russ has been depicted as having two large wolves for a retinue since the 2nd edition of Tabletop 40k. Y'know, when Russ was a playable unit.

Tau were the good guys, then every race in the galaxy tried to shoot you. I can accept that as an excuse for fearing and hating alien races more

1. I've never seen the Ultramarines movie, but everyone I know was too busy criticising it to get around to discussing the positives. I'm usually reserved on the subject (having not seen it), but when someone quotes it at me as "proof" then I get a bit itchy.

Watch it, it's at the least a decent popcorn flick.

Gorb wrote:

Same goes for Fire Warrior, even though I stalwartly love that game. Plasma Gun wheeeeee.

And you said nobody liked it. I have to admit, as average as it was as a game, the guns were pretty well done. They all mostly felt as I'd expect them too...except for the Lasgun, that was pretty odd.

Gorb wrote:

2. Shuriken Catapults are Assault weapons, however Rapid Fire weaponry has a similar rate of fire under certain circumstances, according to Tabletop rules (urgh) and also fluff. Bolters are burst weapons, that's for sure. They function like that in Space Marine as well.

That can also do full auto in Space Marine. I didn't think bolters were able to do that.Though I find it hard to imaging a shuriken catapult and a bolter having a similar rate of fire. It's just a weird mental picture.

Gorb wrote:

3. Space Wolf is an incredibly popular series (at least the first four books are). When another pair of authors take over from William King, the quality diminishes somewhat. Again, this is your "I personally don't like it so therefore it's not worth anything in a debate". I don't like the look of the Ultramarines movie, does that mean I simply ignore your point? No, I had to address and counter.

This is a debate now? And what would you like me to say about the Space Wolf series? I don't care for them anymore, what should I say?

And your counter to the movie was, "nobody liked it"...

Gorb wrote:

5. I attack your opinion because your examples are flawed and your reasoning is, in my honest opinion, terrible. You also seem to have some kind of a love of swearing at Games Workshop like it's the cool thing to do.

Flawed you say? I cited officially licensed 40K media.

As for Games Workshop, I've little love left for them. Scratch that, it's more like I love them for some things, hate them for others.

Gorb wrote:

6. "everything" is the word I chose because I can't think of a time in this thread you respected the other person's opinion without swearing at something or saying "yeah but that sucks". If you could find an example, I'd be much obliged.

The only people I've been snippy with were you, to a lesser extent Horus, and Fuegan...well, unintentionally Fuegan.

Gorb wrote:

Space Wolves have always been lupine in their nature. Wulfen have existed for yonks. Leman Russ has been depicted as having two large wolves for a retinue since the 2nd edition of Tabletop 40k. Y'know, when Russ was a playable unit.

Sure they always were, but they weren't always so extreme in it. Years back it was a milder thing.

_________________Who does the Guard trust the most?AIRBORNE!Who do the ladies love the most?AIRBORNE!Who do the Xenos fear the most?AIRBORNE!

I also cited media licensed by Games Workshop. You ignored it because you didn't like it.

tl;dr: you think that the bolter should be interpreted in a certain way. I have said that you're fine to believe that, but when you turn around and criticise the game because it dares interpret the bolter in another way - before starting to say stuff like "don't use TT as an example because Space Marine isn't fluff-accurate because ULTRAMARINES SUCK AND THREE-MAN SQUADS" - that isn't really on.

If I can't criticise you for your opinions, what gives you permission for you to criticise Relic for theirs?

Especially when both sides of the story have been backed up by media published and/or licensed by GW

Shuriken Catapults work closer to a shotgun rather than an assault rifle. They fire a spread of monomolecular discs rapidly, often expending hundreds of rounds in a matter of seconds. It is for this reason why they have poor range since all their accuracy is lost after a certain distance. Avenger catapults have a tighter spread due to the longer barrel, so can travel a lot further.

Bolters do have fully automatic fire but its cyclic rate doesn't change so it still fires rounds much more slowly than a traditional automatic weapon. Comparing the Bolter to the Catapult is like comparing the Heavy Bolter to the Assault Cannon, not a very good example since they are radically different weapons. Also, in DoW2, units only fire pot shots out of cover occasionally, so it's hard to tell any kind of RoF there.

About 80% through the game so far, still don't really agree with the design of the Bolter, or the Meltagun, or the Plasma gun. My opinion on that will most likely not change, though some of the mods I've heard about in progress for the PC version give me hope.

Titus is no Sicarius, he's the embodiment of the generic space marine. The man has no emotion, no bravado or anything.

The Thunder Hammer is godly with the jump pack. I love it.

Ehh, it's fun, but not as great as I was expecting. The collector's edition box and extras are awesome though. Hopefully the multiplayer will save it for me.

_________________Who does the Guard trust the most?AIRBORNE!Who do the ladies love the most?AIRBORNE!Who do the Xenos fear the most?AIRBORNE!

Out of interest, Astartes Marine, what don't you like about the Meltagun?

If you say "because it's like a shotgun" I will strangle you (jokes)

I've always pictured it as a man portable lava cannon. I don't really mind the shotgun style of it, it fits as a close assault weapon.

The problem I think, it doesn't give off that feeling of being a man portable anti tank lava cannon. It's hard to describe what I really don't like about it, the visual effect maybe?

And I've tried multiplayer...and it is GLORIOUS! I've yet to find a weapon that doesn't do well, even the bolter, especially the bolter. Unlike the campaign, you don't have to unload magazine after magazine into a Chaos Marine to kill him (great success!), everything feels like the proper BFGs compared to the single player designs.But it is a lot of fun, and to emphasize how much I'm enjoying it I haven't been this excited about a multiplayer part of a game since Halo 3...back in 2007...

My only real gripes? Too few maps and only two game modes?

Also, I'm not sure how I feel about the Stalker being able to burst fire in multi...I've already seen quite a few people abusing the hell out of it.

_________________Who does the Guard trust the most?AIRBORNE!Who do the ladies love the most?AIRBORNE!Who do the Xenos fear the most?AIRBORNE!

Hey guys. I've had a proper read of this topic and since Space Marine is out in the UK tomorrow I was wondering what the opinion is regarding whether this game is worth the price.I read the PC Gamer review earlier it gets in the 80's region, but apparently its only 8 hours long. A bit short for me. Then again I thought Crysis 2 was too short as well.Now I know there's a discussion going on as to how accurate/inaccurate it is to tabletop. But to be honest is it any good as a game. 8 hours doesn't bother me if its very replayable. I don't want to download the demo due it eating my mobile broadband allowance.Oh and I know its off topic but has anyone played Witcher 2 or Deus Ex Human Revolution since they seem to have got varied reviews as well.

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It's very likely that if you enjoyed gears, you will likely enjoy this too..

Thanks Horus. Yeah I did really enjoy Gears so I'm pretty optimistic about Space Marine from that point of view. Only thing is Relic are no Epic Games so that's why I was kind of doubtful. Still all that visceral carnage looks very tempting!

_________________Soon the Old Republic will be swept away, typically under the carpet and thrown out by the maid on Friday!

Witcher 2 and Deus Ex 2 are both really great games. But if you're a fan of Gears, you might prefer Space Marine. There's not much replayability in Space Marine, but if you're going to play MP, then I guess that might be worth it. In MP, you often see imbalanced teams with lvl 10s vs lvl 1-3s. Sometimes you'll even see a lvl 25+ running around and owning everyone and if that appeals to you... then do it.

Witcher 2 is really immersive, but you'll need to put a lot of time and patience in it since you'll be running around the map a lot. The combat is a hell of a lot better than the first one and the interaction has improved too. I haven't played it much so I can't really say much about it.

Deus Ex has a ton of content, but the combat is pretty bland and a lot of the augmentations are worthless (like batteries). I'm also not a fan of how the game favors a certain playstyle. You get way more experience (like 4x more) when you go non-lethal and you get more items when you engage targets since you can loot them, so you find yourself uninterested in new weapons and go around sniping targets even though you could have simply avoided them altogether. There's also the huge annoyance of the inventory system where you can barely hold anything and you'll be using weapons simply because they take the least space.

Feugan: Cheers for the feedback mate. MP is not important to me anyway since it eats pay as you go mobile broadband in huge chunks. I guess Space Marine will be worth it from the sheer kill everything point of view. Witcher 2 sounds good, the reviews I read said the inventory was a bit of a pain apparently its getting cleaned up for the 1.3 patch, but every review said it was only a minor issue and didn't spoil the game. As far as time factor goes I'm happy putting time in. Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 2 are two of my favourite games and you can't finish them in a few hours. Regarding Deus Ex apparently combat and the irritating boss fights let it down so I think I'll wait for its inevitable budget release.

_________________Soon the Old Republic will be swept away, typically under the carpet and thrown out by the maid on Friday!

Deus Ex: HR is actually pretty good. The boss fights are a bitch if your character is set up as a hacker or ninja, but you'll be able to sneak around the environment and hack everything, so everything but the bosses will go smoothly. Plus sneaking and exploration can snag you cool weapons like rocket launchers for the boss fights. There's even an Achievement for not killing anyone but the bosses. I already went through as a stealthy semi-pacifist and beat it that way, so my current playthrough is as a cyborg murderer to shame Arnold Schwarzenegger.

_________________"...the trouble with everyone thinking you're a hero is that they tend to assume you like being in mortal danger and [they] go out of their way to provide some."

Thanks Sparda. Nice to have another opinion, sounds good. To be honest a really long RPG like Witcher 2 should keep me happy and Space Marine's mindless amount of slaughter should provide a nice counterbalance to quests and wandering around.

_________________Soon the Old Republic will be swept away, typically under the carpet and thrown out by the maid on Friday!

Oh yeah, with Deus Ex, as long as you aren't in a boss fight you'll have multiple ways to get through a situation, from sneaking to hacking to full badass gunbattle. The revolver with the explosive rounds mod is awesome.

_________________"...the trouble with everyone thinking you're a hero is that they tend to assume you like being in mortal danger and [they] go out of their way to provide some."

I beat Space Marine... and all I have to say is I haven never been so simultaneously bored and uninterested in all my life.

This IS the blandest thing I have ever had the misfortune of 'playing'. I've played MUDs that had better backgrounds. The is NOTHING redeemable in this god awful piece of CRAP.

I found myself running from mobs because the combat was so bland and uninteresting that it was more thrilling to run past all the enemies and go straight to the objective than actually fighting. When you make an action third person shooter and the player doesn't even want to fight, you have FAILED as game developers. There is nothing I can put into words that can adequately portray my utter hate of this game. There have been youtube poops with more substance than this abomination that blights the world.

I would play Fire Warrior three times before I would consider touching this game again. Please, for the love of all things good in the world, do not buy this game. There are SO many other games that have come out or are coming out to spend your money on that WELL deserve your money. If you just want this game as an army painter (which IS the best part of the game), then wait until it is worth pennies. This is among the top 5 worst games I have ever seen in the last 8 years, it is THAT bad.

Playing this game, it's like every second you're completely aware of what you are doing with your life. "I'm sitting here at 23 years old with no job and no money, I haven't had a girlfriend in 5 years, and I live with my parents. WHAT AM I DOING WITH MY LIFE?!" Space Marine. That commercial was not false advertisement. That fry cook, 'I am master of the chainsword.' That's how you picture yourself while playing this game.

So you bought the game after bitching about it continuously and saying how you had no enthusiasm for the game . . . only to bitch and hate about it further?

Dumb purchase, imo. Haters gonna hate.

For me it's one of the best shooting games I've played in a few years, with addictive multiplayer. Opinions and all that. Your opinion is just as valid as mine, and my taste in games is not somehow inferior to yours just because I like a game you don't.

for just a few hours hacky slashy shooty bangy it enjoyed online play, but there's no real tactical cohesion, skill and strategy are replaced by run bang run slash run jump die! A lot to be desired really

Blood, in effect you have just described all the Halo games and a ton of others as well.People have no need for tactics when they can run up to someone and spray them with fire with the storm bolter.

True yet in you think they would add a rp campaign, like 5 tacticals 3 assault and 2 devestators fight side by side against ai enemy to achieve gols and targets, not just chose anything and go smash into em

Oh, I know, especially on console games. I just found it interesting that after three or more pages of hating on the demo and predicting the game would be terrible . . . he then forced himself to sit through an entire Campaign playthrough on a game copy that isn't even his

he then forced himself to sit through an entire Campaign playthrough on a game copy that isn't even his

Sometimes it's nice to be pleasantly surprised.

But for me this reason alone is why I don't make judgements or speculate on games/films etc until I actually play. That way I don't go feeling bullshited and can take things on a more fairer face value for what it is rather than Just hate the thing and give a "Biased" oppinion.

A rather enjoyed the simplistic but still somewhat fun single player mode, even if it is the most 40k cliche storyline ever. I used all the weapons equally, which is very rare... each has its own situation.. baring the melee weapons.

It tends to favour the power axe, but then i considered it an upgrade tbh. Hammer is godly powerful but you lack the use of other weapons to compensate baring pistols and bolter.

I found all the weapons pretty well balanced. My only gripes was that the melta while being short ranged was a shotgun... though i can see why they did that. All though not exactly lacking for ammo in the game, The ten clip is a bit meh. 15 would have been just fine. I really didn't use this much though since the powerful enemies you usually take the lascannon/plasma gun, or run around like crazy and not get hit approach till they are weak enough to melee and get a finisher kill.

In fact the only time i properly used the melta in a level was when i faced nemeroth rather than a curiosity try out when i first saw it. Just for firewarrior nostalgias. And it saved me dying when i got massively over run by bloodletters and i had to roll back (into a wall as it was i could only go >_>) and switched just in time to vaporise them all with one blast.

Another thing:

The stormbolter. It is so anti horde and only effective at short ranged that you should really get it when you first see the plasma gun. The plasma gun would been better of at the time when you get the stormbolter. Against power armour it's not worth using, plasma gun is far better and most of the horde stuff is gone (orks) by then.

warmasterhorusheretic is my steam id so add me if you wanna game up on ****, I find this game just as enjoyable as gears one mp, so it's likely i'll be playing it often. Just don't bother me with mod **** haha.