I don't use Heaven as a metric either. Heaven uses the same tessellation factor for all triangles in a model. There's no fractional tessellation, and no triangles with different tessellation factors on each edge.

I've been talking about STALKER:CoP with AA applied @ 1920x1200. Traditionally, it's been a good title for ATi. I'll be comparing a single HD 5870 @ 1000|1275 vs a 470 @ its max clock in S:CoP below when it arrives. I plan on running full detail 1920x1200 with MSAA and MSAA for A-tested objects, then running the test without MSAA for A-tested objects but with general MSAA active.

Nvidia really needs to work on getting enough cards. At some the window of opportunity to make a sale is just closed. I've had many friends who were really eager to buy a console at launch but ended up not even getting it at all because the wave of hype was over.

As far as FC2 goes in the link I provided, I guess my question would be why is the 5870 only 6FPS behind the stock 470 in averages but 15 in mins?

I only mentioned the 5970 because I noticed the stock 470 equals its mins and passes them when OCed. The stock 5970 beats the stock 470 by 25FPS in averages and by 15 when the 470 is OCed. I was also surprised that was with 8xAA which is supposed to the 5800s strong point.

Yes, I know it's FC2 and it's not like the 5870 and 5970 are putting up poor averages. They are not.

This is because bar graphs don't capture an accurate recording of mins. You have no idea how many frames they saw at the minimum framerate that's recorded, whereas an average is taken over all the frames.

A bar graph will show a min of 21 fps and possibly mislead someone to believing much of the game plays that way when it's possible it happened for a split second then jumped back up to a minimum of 35-40fps the rest of the time.

Essentially, bar graphs are useless when looking at mins. A line graph shows a more accurate picture as it allows you to observe trending.

^ That's the kind of graph that you guys should be examining mins with. Anything else is useless.

And there's no way that a 470 should EVER have a higher minimum framerate than a 5970 as long as Crossfire is scaling properly and you're not maxing out the VRAM. And that's pretty difficult to do unless you're running highest settings and 8x MSAA. You should be running edge-detect instead as it doesn't use up as much VRAM.

This 470 I'm running now @ 1483 shader is darn good and very fluid in the games I've tried so far.

What wrecked my mins in STALKER CoP with triple HD 5870 Crossfire X were extremely hard hitches that occur with AA active @ 1920x1200. They're very jarring and make the game feel far too rough for my liking.

So ya' min FPS reported as a flat number without a timeline can be misleading. I can be benching 41FPS mins but still have a game feel very unpleasant due to hard hitches that occur too often. The STALKER CoP bench indicates I put up 41FPS mins with AA and all maxed which should be extremely smooth and playable if you take that number at face value.

That chart you provided shows the 5970 dipping below 30FPS a lot, and to 25 or lower at least 7 times. That is not something I want to deal with.

...That chart you provided shows the 5970 dipping below 30FPS a lot, and to 25 or lower at least 7 times. That is not something I want to deal with.

What levels of AA are you running on Stalker? And are you running regular MSAA or edge detect? Transparency as well?

P.S. - Everyone knows that ATI struggles with Metro as Nvidia got first dibs on it, and they were running 12xAA. I didn't post the chart to show minimums of that particular game but to illustrate what kind of a graph you guys should be observing minimums with. I think you know as well as I do that that's an aberration.

The 4xx series do appear to be strong on the minimums which is a great thing. But the cases in which a 470 is higher on the low end than a 5970 should be extremely rare. They're clearly higher on 5970 in that graph, for instance.

I was running 4xAA with adaptive AA. My reported mins were 41 and yet I got hard hitch after hard hitch.

I recently pitted a single 5870 @ 1000|1275 vs a 470 @ 1483 shader 1850 memory with 4xAA and transparency enabled, then with transparency off and 4xAA only active @ 1920x1200 below. The results look remarkably similar and I'm telling you first hand the 470 was much smoother.

Without any kind of AA active I can't feel a difference between them in STALKER CoP.

Another thing I should note is the hard hitching is not there with 5870 Crossfire using AA and transparency AA if I drop res from 1920x1200 to 1440x900. I should also note I was using "box" set from the CCC not edge-detect.

In the end, I care about how smooth a game plays @ 1920x1200 with AA, not if I am getting 55FPS reported instead of 65.

I was running 4xAA with adaptive AA. My reported mins were 41 and yet I got hard hitch after hard hitch.

I recently pitted a single 5870 @ 1000|1275 vs a 470 @ 1483 shader 1850 memory with 4xAA and transparency enabled, then with transparency off and 4xAA only active @ 1920x1200 below. The results look remarkably similar and I'm telling you first hand the 470 was much smoother.

Without any kind of AA active I can't feel a difference between them in STALKER CoP.

Another thing I should note is the hard hitching is not there with 5870 Crossfire using AA and transparency AA if I drop res from 1920x1200 to 1440x900. I should also note I was using "box" set from the CCC not edge-detect.

In the end, I care about how smooth a game plays @ 1920x1200 with AA, not if I am getting 55FPS reported instead of 65.

From my own experience, I can say that my 480 SLI setup plays Metro far better than my 5870 CF setup, it is a very obvious difference.

I'm in the process of playing Metro through for the 3rd time. I played it on 280 Tri SLI and 5870 CF previously, the 480 SLI setup beats both of them, no contest.

"Beating" or winning to me is which configuration offers the smoothest gaming experience at 1920x1200 with AA active. I couldn't care less if my rig beats another by 15FPS in averages if I'm getting hard hitching too often. Xion made a good point, bar graph reported FPS certainly does not tell the whole story.

I sent one of my 5870s back to ZZF for a refund, the other was sold, and a third has been dropped in my alt rig.

"Winning" benches and getting high e-peens are great and not at the expense of surrendering smooth game play at 1920x1200 with AA active in demanding titles. Honestly who plays 1280x with medium textures and no AA? (Hi Vantage performance )

This 470 @ 1483 shader is very fast and more importantly smooth with AA at the res I play. If I feel I need more for whatever the reason, I'll get another.

Xion basically made the best point in the whole thread. Bar graph FPS reports don't tell the whole story. I added who cares about what your reported averages and mins are on a bar graph if the game stops for a full count of one or possibly more far too often. Look below.

This is an NVidia fan site so when asked the question most here are going to say Nvidia. Go to Rage and the result will be the same in reverse. I say do your own research, look at multiple reviews from NON-BIASED web sites and make your choice accordingly.

Kapt

Agree.
I always base my purchase on reviews, most times more professional and accurate. Every card has some positives and negatives which most reviews show. The users experience usually emphasize the positives most times completely ignoring the negatives.

For most user the best is what they have in their signature also most users have about zero experience about the competing product.

Anyway I don't like to recommend what people should buy neither I'm expert at such that is why I didn't vote in this poll.