After the birth of Julia, Elizabeth makes a concerted effort to gain the upper hand with Ross. She doesn't love him; I don't think she's capable of loving anyone. (George is the perfect partner for her.) She just wants to be #1. She is not the kind, innocent, working-in-the-field woman. In the Christmas kitchen scene, Ross did not try to kiss Elizabeth. He was indeed flirting with her (I like that dress), but he would not have kissed her. And Elizabeth would not be the one telling him to go to bed - as if! (BTW, I do have some sympathy for Elizabeth; she is a victim of her time, class and culture.) DH has said that she made the TV Elizabeth nicer so we could understand Ross's attraction. I think that is a mistake. The point is Ross is attracted to Elizabeth and idealizes her; he never "sees" her until May 9th.

I feel that the above comment is one that I do not understand or agree with. Exactly how does Ross "sees" Elizabeth? After he had raped her? Forced himself on her?

The end of the scene involves an argument between Elizabeth and Francis after Verity has left the room. Elizabeth show herself to be a nasty snob, and Francis makes it clear that he really likes Demelza and prefers her to some of their other acquaintances whose origins are that much loftier than Demelza's. It eventually becomes clear that Elizabeth isn't just jealous of Demelza because she has Ross. She is jealous because Francis likes her so much on the basis of two meetings -- the first Christmas visit to Trenwith and Julia's christening party. (Cheer up, Elizabeth, he will be angry at Demelza soon. Although then he will forgive her and be eternally grateful to her. And then he will start hiding at her house to avoid spending time with you. Then he will drown.)

Both Elizabeth and Demelza have been jealous of each other for years. The novels have made this perfectly clear. Why is it that so many are willing to discuss Elizabeth's jelaousy and not Demelza's?

I felt compelled to write this post because I just saw Episodes 3 and 4. I was excited to see the new series, but I have to say my worst fears have come true. I know when translating books onto the TV screen, certain characters have to be omitted and events must be compressed. However, I believe that DH has changed the essential natures of the characters - primarily Elizabeth, but also Ross and Demelza. After the birth of Julia, Elizabeth makes a concerted effort to gain the upper hand with Ross. She doesn't love him; I don't think she's capable of loving anyone. (George is the perfect partner for her.) She just wants to be #1. She is not the kind, innocent, working-in-the-field woman. In the Christmas kitchen scene, Ross did not try to kiss Elizabeth. He was indeed flirting with her (I like that dress), but he would not have kissed her. And Elizabeth would not be the one telling him to go to bed - as if! (BTW, I do have some sympathy for Elizabeth; she is a victim of her time, class and culture.) DH has said that she made the TV Elizabeth nicer so we could understand Ross's attraction. I think that is a mistake. The point is Ross is attracted to Elizabeth and idealizes her; he never "sees" her until May 9th.

I am aware that it is difficult to convey the internal dialogue of the books - and Graham uses a lot of internal dialogue. However, I think DH has been ham-handed in having characters verbalize things they wouldneversay out loud. I would have preferred voice-overs. Demelza would never have criticized Ross for looking at another woman. That was part of the problem! She saw Ross's attention to Elizabeth and never said anything. And Ross would never have said to Demelza "what man doesn't look at another woman." In the book, he is having an internal argument with himself; he feels guilty about his interest in Elizabeth. It is also disappointing to see DH build tension between Ross and Demelza with their nasty bickering. In theMiller's Dance, Ross says "It has always been a matter of pride between us that we do not get irritable with each other." They don't bicker and they dont argue about petty things.

I don't know if I can watch anymore. I believe DH has removed much of the nuance from the characters. Instead of three-dimensional characters - flawed and complex - we get black and white. May 9th happens for a lot of reasons - it is NOT love. As Ross says inThe Twisted Sword, it was a "few minutes of anger and lust and overpowering frustration." I fear that in trying to reach a large audience, DH has sanitized some of the more uncomfortable details. Consequently we cannot have the hero forcing himself on Elizabeth (even if she toyed with him for two years and she eventually enjoys the sex). I don't think we will hear the TV Ross telling Elizabeth it is time she was treated as a slut.

I'm so invested in the story - the written words of Winston Graham. He develops his characters so expertly; they are never easy and never one-dimensional. They are complex - like real life. Characters we like do infuriating things - just like real life. Thank you for allowing me to express my frustration.

Thanks for explaining the geography. I was aware from the books that the distances are much greater than is being portrayed - remember Prudie running from Nampara to Trenwith in the first Series - so funny.

And I agree with your later paragraph. Elizabeth was very jealous, especially as she gradually became aware that R & D's marriage was far happier than her own.

The geography in this series is all over the place. In reality, (or the books), it would have taken a couple of hours to reach Truro from Nampara. Half a day to travel to the Blamey's house in Falmouth. Even on a more local basis, Sawle village and St Anne's were two or three miles away, not just down the lane as it appears on TV.

In the 18th Century, Truro was actually a busy port. It gradually silted up so large shipping could only berth at Spring tides and now is almost completely obsolete as a port. We still get the odd boat docking a little further downstream, but the quay in the city has been paved over to form a popular piazza.

I would have loved to see the scene of Demelza in trouble at sea played out faithfully to the books. Ross arrived home to find Jeremy just born - he certainly stride down to the beach and scoop her up.

Joanna Poldark has written that she was surprised by how jealous Elizabeth was of Demelza in the early days. I fancy the problem was caused through her estrangement from Francis and after that Christmas visit from R&D she realised they were deeply in love. She couldn't really cope with that knowledge and became resentful that Ross had moved on and was faring rather better than her in the relationship stakes. It continued all through her life.

My head is spinning at the pace of this episode! So many events squashed into less than six months.

I'm loving the portrayal of Dwight and Caroline. I wasn't sure about the actress to start with, but I now think she is very good at showing the heartless mask that Caroline adopts, while still softening enough to show a bit of how she feels about Dwight. A little unbelievable that Dwight did not recognise scurvy immediately - it would be one of those diseases that was endemic in the villages.

On the other hand, the narkiness between Ross and Demelza was overdone in this episode. It was missing Ross's gentle explanations of why the smuggling was necessary, and the tenderness he displayed to D. The angry words at the boat were so wrong. Sometimes they make it look like R & D are housemates rather than a loving couple. And I think it is important for them to have shown the first smuggling runs as trouble-free (which they didn't), because that is important for the later events.

I didn't mind George's first boxing scene, but to repeat it (it could almost have been cut-and-pasted) was ridiculous. I was sad that R did not throw him over the bannister, though. the fight scene lost some of its impact because of that.

Loved all the scenes with Verity and Andrew etc, although I was aware that a viewer who didn't know the books might think it was a little out of place? But I couldn't work out why everyone was meeting up together until I realised that they have settled A&V in Truro instead of Falmouth. I suppose that makes sense to keep the storylines moving together, but it seemed weird. I wonder how much shipping happens in Truro?

Once again Kyle Soller was fantastic. And I loved James Blamey - just right. And Mr Trencrom.

Having seen the first bit of the smuggling storyline, I am really nervous for how they continue it. For me, it is essential that the rest of that plays out exactly as it is in the books.

I have only recently acquired first editions so I had never read this particular part before. Certainly reveals a different side to Elizabeth. It does make her seem more human and young and slightly immature. Very interesting that she was so jealous of Demelza in those first couple of years after Ross and Demelza married. It's good to see beneath the poise and aloofness. I'm very curious as to why Winston Graham removed these parts, to me, they add so much more to the character of Elizabeth.

I agree that it offers insight into Elizabeth's character, but I suspect the decision to delete the chapter stemmed from concern that it made her seem too needy and emotionally fragile -- and class-conscious -- ever to have appealed to Ross. He might like a lily, but not a hot-house orchid. And a woman who could not be comfortable chatting over tea in Mrs. Zacky's kitchen would never do as mistress of Nampara. (Elsewhere, Elizabeth is a little more egalitarian. Her circle of friends includes former Trenwith servants and the Rev. Odgers' family.)

At Trenwith, Elizabeth was starved for attention, but she wanted attention on her terms. She had figured out that the only way she got the spotlight she craved was to be ill herself or to be concerned that Geoffrey Charles was ill. Unfortunately, she has returned to that well too often for Francis' tastes:

"Geoffrey Charles is feverish," she said. "I hope and pray he has not taken an infection."

She knew by his (Francis') slightly stiffened shoulders that she said the wrong thing.

"You have hoped and prayed that for the better part of four years, and he has not taken it

I have only recently acquired first editions so I had never read this particular part before. Certainly reveals a different side to Elizabeth. It does make her seem more human and young and slightly immature. Very interesting that she was so jealous of Demelza in those first couple of years after Ross and Demelza married. It's good to see beneath the poise and aloofness. I'm very curious as to why Winston Graham removed these parts, to me, they add so much more to the character of Elizabeth.

I agree that it offers insight into Elizabeth's character, but I suspect the decision to delete the chapter stemmed from concern that it made her seem too needy and emotionally fragile -- and class-conscious -- ever to have appealed to Ross. He might like a lily, but not a hot-house orchid. And a woman who could not be comfortable chatting over tea in Mrs. Zacky's kitchen would never do as mistress of Nampara. (Elsewhere, Elizabeth is a little more egalitarian. Her circle of friends includes former Trenwith servants and the Rev. Odgers' family.)

At Trenwith, Elizabeth was starved for attention, but she wanted attention on her terms. She had figured out that the only way she got the spotlight she craved was to be ill herself or to be concerned that Geoffrey Charles was ill. Unfortunately, she has returned to that well too often for Francis' tastes:

"Geoffrey Charles is feverish," she said. "I hope and pray he has not taken an infection."

She knew by his (Francis') slightly stiffened shoulders that she said the wrong thing.

"You have hoped and prayed that for the better part of four years, and he has not taken it

It's nice to see Elizabeth's bitchiness out front. It makes her so human, in compare to the always nearly perfect Demelza.

On Demelza's behalf, I must object. She's not nearly perfect, she just tries so much harder than everyone else does because she knows there are so many people, from Jud to George Warleggan, expecting her to fail. She can't let that happen because it will reflect poorly on Ross.

Demelza reminds me of one of those kids who is the first in his/her family to be admitted to college and feels he/she must make the most of the opportunity.

Dark Mare wrote "(I haven't seen Episode 4 yet, but I'm assuming they have replicated that scene because it is such an appealing one.)"

Sadly this was missing from episode 4. I am hoping it may appear somewhere in episode 5. There is some hope that it will as DH has been changing the order of so many things in this series. If it doesn't appear we shall have to wait for the scene where there is just Francis and Demelza at Nampara and Francis has many words of praise for Demelza.

I also love that scene, when Francis, although obviously embarrassed, forces himself to continue in his praise for Demelza. And noticeably, Elizabeth agrees, just a shade later than all the others! In a nutshell, that just about epitomises their relationship.

This second series, I have noticed, although we have discussed the deviation from the books (just a bit), has many fewer lines taken from the books than series 1 had. Do you suppose it could be because Debbie & Co now have a commercial 'hit' in their hands, it's gone to their heads and they feel more artistic licence can be used?

The notorious missing Chapter Six from "Demelza" (It appeared in only the first edition.) describes an interesting personality quirk Elizabeth has that provides a different way to look at this, but the chapter also includes speeches by Elizabeth that make it clear exactly how much she dislikes Demelza. Since I read it, I have been back and forth with myself about what Elizabeth's delay in the scene where the family drinks a toast to Demelza really means. (I haven't seen Episode 4 yet, but I'm assuming they have replicated that scene because it is such an appealing one.)

The second half of Chapter Six deals with the aftermath of a meeting of the Grambler shareholders. Francis has been able to persuade the major investors to support continuing to operate the mine for at least three more months and the Warleggans suspend the interest payments. Francis is reporting what happened to Verity and Elizabeth. Elizabeth's quirk involves reacting to news. If she can't be the first to speak and say exactly the right thing, she says nothing until prodded and she considers herself a failure because she didn't speak first and best. In one of the later books, she resents someone for speaking first, but she then despises herself for caring that someone had beat her to the punch. I think that's progress; she had stopped thinking of herself as a failure. She may be slower than everyone else because she didn't come up with the idea that a toast to Demelza was in order and instruct Francis to propose one.

... Verity came in.

"Is it good news, Francis?" she said. "I fancied by what I heard Mr. Trencrom say as he mounted his horse..."

Elizabeth bit her lip.

Francis said: "We are to continue for at least another three months. The eighty fathoms level is to go, but it has been disappointing for some time and will not matter."

Verity's sallow face glowed. "Thank God for it! That may get us beyond Christmas, and conditions must be better themselves by then. I could not think of those many hundreds destitute."

" To say nothing of ourselves," Francis observed.

"What a triumph for you Francis!" she said.

"How did you ever persuade them?"

"The Warleggans are advancing no more; but they have agreed to accept suspension of interest payments. As for the rest, Mr. Trencrom -- who I fancy by reason of his smuggling concerns is the richest of the rest of us -- Mr. Trencrom, Mr. Sugden and Mrs. Trenwith will bear the risk between them."

"That is splendid. Is it not, Elizabeth?"

"Yes indeed." Elizabeth was glad and relieved, but the gladness was not in her voice. Verity's enthusiasm, however innocent, had forestalled her own, therefore her own would be suspect. She had missed her opportunity to say the right thing at the right time....

The end of the scene involves an argument between Elizabeth and Francis after Verity has left the room. Elizabeth show herself to be a nasty snob, and Francis makes it clear that he really likes Demelza and prefers her to some of their other acquaintances whose origins are that much loftier than Demelza's. It eventually becomes clear that Elizabeth isn't just jealous of Demelza because she has Ross. She is jealous because Francis likes her so much on the basis of two meetings -- the first Christmas visit to Trenwith and Julia's christening party. (Cheer up, Elizabeth, he will be angry at Demelza soon. Although then he will forgive her and be eternally grateful to her. And then he will start hiding at her house to avoid spending time with you. Then he will drown.)

... "Well, Ross is making money at Wheal Leisure."

"There is a modest profit, nothing spectacular. For my part, if I was in his place and had a little money for the first time in years, I should get me a few new servants to supplant those Paynters, who slop about as if the place was their own by deed of gift. After all, he owes something to his station."

"Perhaps his little wife would not welcome new servants," Elizabeth said, "lest she should be mistaken for one of them."

"She'll learn quick enough," said Francis irritatingly. "I confess I found her entertaining enough at Christmas time. As for Tuesday, well, one cannot be blamed too harsh for one's relatives."

"That's what people will be saying of us if Demelza tries to play the great lady before she has even learned to play the small one."

Francis puffed his pipe. He had not looked at it that way before. Then he laughed.

"My dear, when I think of some of the people who are accepted into our society, I do not fear for Demelza."

Elizabeth stiffened.

"Whom do you mean?"

"Well, what is Polly Choake but a brewer's daughter? What is George Warleggan but a smith's grandson? What is Odgers but a half-starved little lackey with a horse collar and a horse wig? Damn me, I'm a good Cornishman and should rather mix with a sumpman's daughter any day of the month."

Coming down into the arena, Elizabeth said suddenly, whitely, "I wonder you didn't marry one."

Francis took the pipe from his mouth and stared at the bole for some moments.

"How dare you!" She turned on him tremulously. "Do you suggest that all the obligation of the marriage has been on my side? ---"

"No, but it would be unwise to assume it has been all on mine."

" --- How can you say that I haven't done everything to help you? You would find no one who could have done better. I have had as my only thought the care of yourself and your father, your house and your child. I have sat here alone in this parlor night after night, week after week, while you have been gaming away your inheritance and your son's inheritance! I have done everything possible to cut down our expense in these difficult times, while you have thrown money on the card tables and drunk yourself into a -- into a stupor. I have never known your thanks or praise. You keep your thanks for -- for I know not what strumpet and your praise for the beggar girl Ross has married!"

With tears in her eyes she went quickly from the room, leaving the door open behind her. Hcould hear her running up the stairs....

I don't think it's fitting a book into 4 episodes that is rushed - it's having too busy a programme. The story isn't allowed to develop as WG did it, because Elizabeth and George, and for that matter Francis, keep popping up in unexpected places so the flow of things is interrupted.

Only my view, of course. I am quite sure there are hundreds, nay thousands who disagree.

I just find it odd that some are complaining that the second season of this new adaptation seem so rushed, when it is simply following the same production pattern as the 1975 series. Yet, there have been no such complaints directed at the first adaptation.

Ross is a flawed man and its the realism of all his characters that make Winston Grahams original story so believable and wonderful. I don't want a sanitised version , I want the story as written, warts and all!

I'm not complaining that Horsfield has completely sanitized Ross' character. But it is obvious that she is sanitizing it to a certain degree. But she is not alone. The producers of the 70s series did the same thing. Apparently, maining Ross' image as a "hero" is very important to producers and many viewers alike.

I was really pleased when Series 1 finally settled down (after all the breathless beginning) about episode 3 and the books were followed as closely as was feasibly possible. Many of the lines were straight from the books. It is understandable Debbie wants to write it in her own words, but in my view she should tell the same story. Perhaps it's time constraint, but it all seems so rushed; whereas the books develop at a trot, we are shown a canter, and often a gallop! Not that I mind some galloping round the cliffs to show off this beautiful county, but not at the expense of plot development.

Personally, I would have loved the series to open with the Prologue, but I guess the producers felt it wouldn't catch the viewers, so instead we got a slice of violence. I agree viewers really deserve a faithful version of these wonderful books, but it's an impossible dream and will never happen in my opinion.

I also love that scene, when Francis, although obviously embarrassed, forces himself to continue in his praise for Demelza. And noticeably, Elizabeth agrees, just a shade later than all the others! In a nutshell, that just about epitomises their relationship.

This second series, I have noticed, although we have discussed the deviation from the books (just a bit), has many fewer lines taken from the books than series 1 had. Do you suppose it could be because Debbie & Co now have a commercial 'hit' in their hands, it's gone to their heads and they feel more artistic licence can be used?

Yes. And the producers of the 1975-77 series did the same thing. They were no more faithful to Graham's novels than Horsfield.

I await the day when some TV producer will make a third adaptation of Graham's series and adhere closer to his story and themes. But I doubt that will occur in my lifetime.

I agree that Ross would not have taken risks by helping to land the cargo and to change this was a bad mistake. DH may have done this to create the tension between him and Demelza. She seems to want to paint their marriage as going through a really bad patch, perhaps in preparation for what is to come.

In the novel, Demelza was openly against Ross being involved in smuggling. In fact, they had an argument about it. However, I do not believe that he took part in helping to land the cargo.

I also love that scene, when Francis, although obviously embarrassed, forces himself to continue in his praise for Demelza. And noticeably, Elizabeth agrees, just a shade later than all the others! In a nutshell, that just about epitomises their relationship.

This second series, I have noticed, although we have discussed the deviation from the books (just a bit), has many fewer lines taken from the books than series 1 had. Do you suppose it could be because Debbie & Co now have a commercial 'hit' in their hands, it's gone to their heads and they feel more artistic licence can be used?

However, my real disappointment comes from the deletion of Francis' toast to Demelza. I loved that scene in the books and was really looking forward to it, not just the toast itself but also the reactions of Ross and Elizabeth, to it. Oh well, at least I have the books.

I agree with you about Francis' toast to Demelza which I was looking forward to also. My hope is that it may be shown at the start of episode 5. Keep fingers firmly crossed.

I am finding this incantation of Elizabeth very irritating and it is affecting my enjoyment of this adaptation. One of my chief complaints about Elizabeth, is her treatment of Francis and in this production, it seems that they are happy or at least content with each other now. As for George, that is another characterization, that does not ring true or even make sense. However, my real disappointment comes from the deletion of Francis' toast to Demelza. I loved that scene in the books and was really looking forward to it, not just the toast itself but also the reactions of Ross and Elizabeth, to it. Oh well, at least I have the books.

I too really enjoyed this episode, and I agree that the change regarding the smuggling where Ross assisted with the land cargo was probably added to increase the tension between Ross and Demelza's relationship. There was of course tension in the book but for instance Demelza and Ross never argued about her going fishing because Ross never knew anything about it, as she manages to hide it from him, and when she goes into labour she manages to get back to the house alone and returns to an empty house.

Episode 5 does look very interesting, the trailer keeps playing a line from Elizabeth "Can't a woman love two men and can a man not love two women ?" I think she is conversing with Ross so it will be interesting to see how they portray his reaction.

There are still some strange things happening.� Ross is appearing even more reckless than in the books.� He was scrupulous�about keeping indoors during the cargo landing, especially whilst Demelza was pregnant, which showed his concern for her.�

I also think George's 'boxing' lessons/practice totally out of keeping with his book character.� He had bullies to sort out any potential trouble to his plans.

I am still puzzled about Elizabeth.� She seems much too�happy with Francis and is� more involved with everything - quite different from her behaviour in the novels. And what was George doing suggesting she become his mistress?� Not his style at all.� He was only ever interested in besting Ross and accumulating power/money - and worshipping Elizabeth from afar (at that point).� It will be interesting to see what happens when George does have his opportunity with her.

Although I didn't see the series in the 70s, apart from a couple of episodes seen a couple of yeas ago, this new series�is becoming�the opposite.� In the original, series 1 was very different and WG was furious, whereas series 2 followed the books much more closely and he was very much involved.

Your thoughts, please.

_________________________________________________________________

�In �spite of all you say, Mrs G, I enjoyed episode 4 but am glad that Warleggan will get 6 episodes which I hope will slower the pace. Jud seems to have disappeared and I wonder if he will return at all. I agree that Ross would not have taken risks by helping to land the cargo and to change this was a bad mistake. DH may have done this to create the tension between him and Demelza. She seems to want to paint their marriage as going through a really bad patch, perhaps in preparation for what is to come. Everywhere there are signs of her wanting to put her mark on it I think. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

I agree that George would have had henchmen and I found his boxing lessons very irritating. Perhaps she felt it necessary to explain George's physically aggressive behaviour in the lead up to the fight with Ross.�

Like you, I am puzzled about Elizabeth's behaviour. It suggests a re-kindling of her love for Francis while at the same time she hangs onto Ross. From the trailer I have seen of episode 5 it seems this will be explained at the Trevaunance dinner.

Overall however I am enjoying it more now than at the start and much looking forward to the Warleggan episodes.

There are still some strange things happening. Ross is appearing even more reckless than in the books. He was scrupulous about keeping indoors during the cargo landing, especially whilst Demelza was pregnant, which showed his concern for her.

I also think George's 'boxing' lessons/practice totally out of keeping with his book character. He had bullies to sort out any potential trouble to his plans.

I am still puzzled about Elizabeth. She seems much too happy with Francis and is more involved with everything - quite different from her behaviour in the novels. And what was George doing suggesting she become his mistress? Not his style at all. He was only ever interested in besting Ross and accumulating power/money - and worshipping Elizabeth from afar (at that point). It will be interesting to see what happens when George does have his opportunity with her.

Although I didn't see the series in the 70s, apart from a couple of episodes seen a couple of yeas ago, this new series is becoming the opposite. In the original, series 1 was very different and WG was furious, whereas series 2 followed the books much more closely and he was very much involved.