Welcome aboard rthomas4. Thanks for your contribution to the conversation.

Guys, the framers of the Constitution and the members of the militia seem to come up over and over again when dealing with this topic. I have to ask you a question about them. Is there a chance, just a chance, that we may be viewing these men with a little too much romance? Is it possible that rather than being saints, the framers were simply astute politicians and the militia was a mob at times? Granted, they were wise, brave and patriotic in their own way, I will not deny that, but wasn't their world view shaped by the norms of their own times? (I bet Sally Hemings would have said so!) Might it be proper to allow the principals set forth in the Constitution to be evaluated and updated as our society evolves?

JPH wrote:So if I view the founding fathers as mortal, I don't like this country? Hmm, makes my service in two branches of the US Armed Forces and my career as a public servant seem kind of pointless.

The Constitution and the Bill of Rights, is not a fluid document to be rewritten at a whim. It is a blueprint of a Nation. I respect your service, though you seldom talk about it. If you served, without a clear understanding why, then that sounds like a personal problem. There can be no compromise on the Second Amendment. Without it, there are no other Rights. The Dick Act, forbids tampering with the Second Amendment, and has never been repealed (it is still the law of the land) and all gun free zones, and restrictions, are in clear violation of that Act. But we have allowed the law to soften, (not legally, but gradually) by attrition, one restriction at a time. Gun bans do not work, and several of the weapons that ended on the failed ban, were not there when it was implemented. one gun on the banned list was added to the list without EVER being used in a crime of any kind. It is a matter of Legal Precedent. If any chink in the armor of the Second Amendment is allowed, it will allow for the dis-arming of the people. It must be inviolate.

"Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth. George Washington

The only real difference between a good tracker and a bad tracker is observation. All the same data is present for both. The rest is understanding what you are seeing.

As with gun bans, the Constitution must remain inviolate or suffer destruction and the total demise of the Republic. Agree 100% that the framers were simply men; but to rank them as vile as politicians is doing them a great injustice. At the time they were truly men of vision, unlike those who serve in political office today. The United States Constitution is our defining element. It is what sets us as a nation apart from all other nations of the world. If we allow any portion of it to be desecrated, we may as well trample on the flag and declare our allegiance to the UN. Fortunately that's the reason the Second Amendment is in our Bill of Rights, as a means to achieving the preservation of our Republic. Without the strength of the Second, the First would surely collapse and the domino effect would ripple throughout the entire Bill of Rights and we would end up no better off than the North Koreans or the Iranians.

Ohio farms wrote:I respect your service, though you seldom talk about it. If you served, without a clear understanding why, then that sounds like a personal problem.

...Kellory

Since you brought it up Kellory, what is your understanding of why one serves his country in the military?[/quote]

That is a answer that is as varied as there are men who serve. I know how I felt when i tried to sign up after 9-11. i felt I was needed, and despite what it would cost my family, i would have gone. It was a feeling of immanent attack that drove me to try and man the walls. A feeling that every body would be needed to stop killers at our door. I was turned away as too old. i argued with them that at least i could drive a truck or stock a warehouse to help. To free up a younger man to fight, if I could not. I was told no.Some serve for Honor, some for college money, some because it is what their family does. Some serve because it is best path to their chosen career, and they get to play with the newest toys (drones. Derma robots, ect) there are many products undergoing field tests with the military at all times. For most, i would say it is to protect what we have, our families, To preserve our way of life., the precepts that guide us. To keep war as far from our families as we can.I respect your service , Sir. Deeply and daily, but if you only brought it up lend weight to a weak argument, I would not respect you. JPH says:"I'm just a but worried about some of the company we keep, as gun lovers. I listen to the conversations and there seems to be a callousness toward the loss of life, racism and an unhealthy fear of big brother. I really think we'd be better off without this crowd. All I'm asking for is some reason and open discussion." For stating proven History, I'm called a Racist (again), and because of how History dealt with slaves, I am Callous? I wasn't there, and I can't right the wrongs of the past. It also had no bearing on the discussion at hand. But Callouses are cause by hard work, so while not callous, I am calloused, and I expect to keep what is mine. I have earned it."An unhealthy fear of Big Brother? Between the czars, the appointments in defiance of the law, the Executive Orders (allowed only by the War Powers Act,) Fast and Furious, Obamacare, Our economy is failing while Millions and millions of dollars worth of tanks and planes being given to Egypt though they are now under Sheree law? The list goes on and on. there is quite a lot to fear from the current Government. JPH has held a grudge for quite a while, ever since i let it be know i wanted illegals to stay on their side of the fence, he doesn't want a fence at all. It has flavored every conversation since with comments of racism . I'm more than a little tired of it, so I'm having trouble respecting the man right now, and that is of his own devising.To you, Ohio Farms, my respects.

The only real difference between a good tracker and a bad tracker is observation. All the same data is present for both. The rest is understanding what you are seeing.

"On Wednesday, the Department of Homeland Security, along with a SWAT team and Bernalillo County sheriff’s deputies raided the home of Robert Adams in Albuquerque, New Mexico and, according to a federal search warrant affidavit the raid seized nearly 1,500 firearms from the man’s home and business. However, no charges have been filed against him, despite the fact that court documents reveal that agents had been watching Adams for years.By Wednesday afternoon dozens of rifles were hauled out of the house, bagged as evidence and laid out on the lawn.According to search warrants that were filed on Thursday Homeland Security Investigations confiscated nearly 900 firearms from Adams’ home, 548 handguns and 317 rifles. They also seized 599 pistols and revolvers from his office.Neighbors say that he was a firearms collector and some indicated that he was also a licensed gun seller. No confirmation of that has been forthcoming.

While having been watched for years and no charges filed as they seized Adam’s firearms, Federal investigators are saying that they are investigating him for gun smuggling, tax evasion, violating importation laws.KRQE reports,Court documents reveal federal agents were watching Adams for years and that some documentation was missing “to determine to whom Adams [was] selling or exporting his firearms.”The guns were also not properly marked possibly to make the guns more valuable and to avoid paying high import taxes, investigators alleged.However, a bigger concern is that no markings on the guns and missing documents mean the guns are not traceable by law enforcement.The search warrant also said Adams was investigated in Canada for keeping about 80 illegal guns in a storage unit. U.S. agents worked with Canadian police on that case.Kurt Nimmo points out, “New Mexico does not regulate or specifically restrict the possession of firearms. Owners are not required to register or license firearms with the state.“No law shall abridge the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms for security and defense, for lawful hunting and recreational use and for other lawful purposes, but nothing herein shall be held to permit the carrying of concealed weapons. No municipality or county shall regulate, in any way, an incident of the right to keep and bear arms,” Article 2, Section 6 of the state constitution reads.“Gun collectors are protected under the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986,” Nimmo writes. “The law states that a firearms dealer is defined as a person who is selling guns for profit or livelihood. Unlicensed individuals are allowed to sell firearms from their private collection without performing a background check on the buyer.”Something seriously smells here. How can you be investigated for years, yet upon serving a search warrant you don’t put forth any charges against a man when you confiscate nearly 1,500 firearms? I wish they had taken this kind of approach to the Obama Justice Department’s gunwalking program that trafficked nearly 2,500 firearms across the border into Mexico that has left hundreds dead. No one is claiming that the firearms that Adams had were used in any crime!So much for the Obama administration’s claims that they aren’t against gun collectors. Sports shooters and hunters, you’re up next."