Hackjob wrote:On the subject of "combat frame" advancement in the past 40 years. I don't think of it as the advancement of military avionic tech from the 1970's to now (minimal change). I think of it more like the development of combat aircraft from say, 1915 to 1955. I that 4 decade span we went from airplanes with wooden frames and cloth bound wings (which incidentally, were sealed with a highly flammable lacquer), to jet fighters with pressurized cockpits, internal computers and radar capable of supersonic flight. Prior to WWI, most generals considered aircraft to be a "gimmic" with little to no tactical value. So if the past 40 years of the solar calendar are the real beginnings of combat frame use, I see the development of new frames as pretty reasonable. In fact I now kinda see all the awesome frames the MF0 community has been making as equivalent to the wide array of new combat aircraft types created from the 60's to the 80's.

Interesting analogue, Hackjob; as you point out, four decades isn't per say an unreasonable or impossible period of time for significant advancements in combat frame technology but I feel limiting it as such seems to go against some of timeline that Joshua and Soren have established (for themselves and the community) in the rulebook. It's worth noting that the first military combat planes were in use just a little over a decade after the first successful powered flights by the Wright brothers in 1903; in contrast if combat frame advancement has only really taken place since the Celiel uprising, it would mean it took the Solar Union roughly 150 years to make the jump from the first labor frame to a dedicated combat frame.

Going back to my previous assumptions about ST-02 being the predominant frame in the War of Martian Unification, I imagine the ST-01 would have been something akin the biplanes of WWI, basically little than a labor frame with a gun, and I would liken the ST-02 to a top end piston engine warplane of WWII, say the Mustang or the Spitfire; really good for their day but with the adoption of game changing technology at the end or/after the war (jet engines historically and the introduction of the ST-03 standard for the Solar Calendar) they quickly feel out of favor/use afterwards. So given the parallel to jet engines, I would liken the ST-03 and ST-04 to those early first and second generation jet fighters of the mid-1940s to the early 1960s; completely superseded their predecessors, introduced significant technological innovation and advancements, but were quickly replaced by the next generation of combat machines. In turn, I would liken the ST-05 and ST-06 to third generation jet fighters of the 1960s to mid-1970s like the Phantom and Intruder; refined upon the innovations of the previous generations while incorporating better technology and weaponry, used steadily for several decades before being gradually retired and replaced with more modern combat machines. Again, I imagine the development of the ST-03 through ST-06 fitting into the 40-ish years between the war on Mars and the Celiel uprising. After the Celiel uprising, the Solar Union developed the ST-07 as an adaptable and reliable frame for the UMFL to use; I would liken this to increased focus on multi-role configurations for fourth generation jet fighters. In particular I imagine the ST-07 sort of as the F-16 Falcon of the MFØ setting; both are iconic, versatile, and while not the most cutting edge are still widely used. I can see the ST-08, ST-09 and particularly the ST-10 (based on its rulebook description) as being specialized contemporaries to the ST-07 similar to the F-14 Tomcat, F-15 Eagle or F-18 Hornet or perhaps they're more like 4.5 generation jet fighters which are advanced derivatives of those craft like the F-15E Strike Eagle or the F-18E/F Super Hornet.

So in general I feel that the Solar Calendar setting would benefit from a longer development period for the ST-0X frames (and combat frames in general) due to the almost 200 year expanse from the original labor frame and the current Solar date as well as better fitting with the given backgrounds for the ST-02 and ST-07 in the rulebook. Anyway, that's just my perceptions and opinions. I look forward to whatever further details Joshua and Soren hash out.

It looks to me like we're gonna have to sit down and reread what we wrote! I think we may be seeing some editing artifacts. Which I hate.

My memory is that Celiel is where the term "mobile frame" came into use, because the combatants were using labor frames as highly mobile weapon platforms, but I think it might just be the first modern conflict of any large-scale political import. That means it was the first conflict to force a change in doctrine; before then, they might have been used like Gatling guns in the US Civil War, where no one knew how to use them yet, and therefore made bad engineering decisions (they couldn't traverse!), which led to a lack of tactical effectiveness.

Soren and I will reread what we wrote, discuss, and have some answers!

(In the meantime, note that the A-10 Warthog is still in use, despite being retired every few years. They still fly with F-16s over my house.)

Sorry but I need to put in my $0.02 here. If we're going to talk about apparent slow progress military technology then we should also consider Navy warships. You can say that over the last 40 years they remain unchanged. But the Navy does have over 30 types of warships. Most of them are still in use. Each one has a special function. I would say let's consider the size of the solar Union. Also let's consider all the types of environments that the solar Union encounters on different world. It's no different than the Navy and Counting different environments and therefore needing different types of ships to deal with those environments. For example mine fields. And yes there are still mine fields out there in the oceans. And yes the Navy still uses minesweepers old wooden boats. Maybe it's safe to say that teach ST is not necessarily an improvement from the prior. Rather maybe we can say that some of these models are simply adaptations of the different environments. 40 years is perhaps not a long time but I don't think its enough for a burning up 10 different models or whatever number models.

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