The next "Tea Time with Ryme" will be Friday, January 28 at 7:00 p.m. US Mountain time (roughly 1:10 before rollover), for a live Q&amp;A session about the game.

If you can't make it (or think you'll forget) feel free to post questions here.

Main topic of discussion will be how retcon is shaping up, and what changes we might need to make in a few months (sort of a 6-month tune-up) to keep things interesting. Big questions involve how to handle leaderboards, whether or not the current mettle values are accurate for different restrictions, adding more skills to perm, improving quest flows, strategy, and other pain points, or whatever else is on your mind.

Why do I have to leave the sewers to throw on the sandals I just found, even if I am barefoot?

Please, pretty please, with a nice big bundle of cherries on top make passable pilot permable and I will promise to stop my complaining about the pseudo-nerf to the medevac chopper/ VHF-1 suit. Either that or allow IotM flying items to come with a trained pilot.

I disagree with tame being overpowered (never really use it myself though). I usually get 160 - 200 exp a turn from level 1 - 4.

And Pull runs are definitely dominating the leader boards covering 4 of the 5 Brackets. I do agree that the pulls mettle/reward needs a little fine-tuning as I can do ~11 mettle 3-day runs with hardly a sweat and that seems like too much reward for so little effort.

I think the easiest way to balance taming is create an item that allows other classes to tame, but thats just my 2 cents. On the rooftops note, it is more useful in run than many other places (think sanitarium/robot hive), seeing as how it provides xentrium breastplates, bonus skill points, and many other goodies (as well as a shortcut on level .

Zillow, How many IotM are you using? Remember, THat guy is a newer character, and might have 2-3, maybe.

I agree with Zillow that Tame, while useful, is highly overrated by you guys. Sure, as a Naturalist I get a few extra xp in the Bay and possibly during the sewer quest. But it's not speeding up my runs by more than a few minutes, if anything. I would argue that the Elemental waterbreathing skill is much more useful for people without IOTM gear since finding a Harbor Pearl can be a real pain and wearing the scuba gear is a sever detriment.

That said, comparing the special inherent abilities of the four classes (a reasonable thing to do, now that retcon is here), Tame seems to be the winner:

* Naturalist: Tame! Defeat certain enemies without attacking, and extra XP! (useful in the sewers, the bay, the outskirts, basically a lot of places that are useful on the way to retcon)* Elementalist: Breathe underwater! Useful for a single quest!?* Gadgeteer: Supercomputer build! And supersecret second ability!?* Psion: More chances to use some of your class skills!

Heck, in terms of pure flavor, the Psion loses.

And in terms of pure utility, the Naturalist seems to win. (The gadgeteer's supercomputer-build skills only really matter in no-pull runs. And they only come into play around level ten, since that's around the time you can survive in the renegade robot hive, and since retcon happens pretty much one level later, that's not a huge utility).

Granted, given that the docks are severely tougher than most any other zone a character can be expected to explore by that time, and scuba-gear is so horrific, the Elementalist is at least close to the Naturalist. But on the other hand, that's one quest, and the Naturalist's ability can be used in a lot of locations.

(So, moving on to a question that may very well be pointless since I hope to be there tonight: I've heard rumors that gadgeteers have a super-secret second ability. Is this true? And if so, what is it?)

SYSTEM MESSAGE: Okay, so now begins the next installment of Tea Time with Ryme, an open discussion between the players and Ryme -- that's me![N] Ryme: I know I've got a few questions the forums, but I'm going to start by rehashing today's theme and taking questions from the live audience first.[N] Ryme: This one may be a little more open discussion and a little less Q&A, as I'm not sure I've got a lot of answers yet. Still formulating the questions.[N] Ryme: Main theme for tonight is Retcon. How's it shaping up? Where are the pain points? What's going well, what's frustrating or disappointing?[N] Ryme: And how would people feel about various possible fixes if we adjust things at the 6-month mark? [N] PenguinPyro: Will there be a way to browse the mall without looking for a specific item?[N] Ryme: PPyro: I don't know. I think there's a bit of a reason not to just feed a list of all items to new players, among other things.[N] Ryme: You can of course browse through stores.[N] PenguinPyro: Okay.[N] Ryme: Is that a feature you'd actually use? And if so, in what way? [N] PenguinPyro: Ryme, I would use it.[N] PenguinPyro: If I can comment on pain points, I believe the randomness of the level 3 and level 5 quests can be annoying at times.[N] PenguinPyro: I once went through 15 capos and got 15 "you search but find nothing useful" messages.[N] Harry Dresden: That can always be helped with +item buffs or gear, though.[N] Ryme: Was that before or after the revamp, Pyro?[N] PenguinPyro: After the level 5 revamp.[N] Jaolen: even with echolocation + metal detector + flea market trader, it can take that long, yeah[N] PenguinPyro: Although that particular instance may have been just extremely crappy luck.[N] Ryme: ah, "can" is a funny phrase. If there's randomness any really bad string of luck can happen.[N] Harry Dresden: I've had a few runs where it took a few hours, but it usually drops in a decent amount of time.[N] PenguinPyro: Well, it would be nice if the chance of getting a key went up slightly after every capo.[N] Ryme: But noted. I'd thought I'd helped streamline that one at least a bit. Didn't expect it'd still be a pain point.[N] Ryme: And that may be a fair fix.[N] Ryme: What's the beef with level 3, then? Mostly the effects of the mist?[N] PenguinPyro: The beef is also randomness.[N] PenguinPyro: And to some extent, as some guy on the forums noted, the need to re-enter the maze after doing anything.[N] Ryme: they're all random. I guess you mean "the extent to which bad luck can drag out"?[N] PenguinPyro: Yeah.[N] Ryme: Also noted, then.[N] Ryme: The thing about the maze is, before anything else existed, I knew the "obstacle" for that quest was going to be needing to leave and come back. [N] Ryme: So I do get some of the objection about why leaving for X doesn't make sense, but any fix to the maze quest flow in that respect is going to still force characters to leave the maze. Just maybe for different reasons.[N] Ryme: I'm still kind of surprised how strongly some people react, though. Later quests, which maybe just have a "30% odds of getting the noncombat to advance the quest" don't bother people if it's in a zone. But leaving and needing to re-enter, with the same odds, strikes some people as being much more unfair.[N] Ryme: Anyway, I'm the only one talking about it, so I guess I'll move on.[N] Ryme: What else?[N] Jaolen: a big pain point for me is getting into no-pulls runs - it's super beneficial to have like ~4 gold foils to start those runs (1200 chips + a foil poncho), but you need to lead in to get it[N] Jaolen: as a result, i just don't do no-pulls runs.[N] Ryme: I can see how the foil helps, but I'm kind of curious how much of an actual statistical difference it would make on daycount?[N] Ryme: I certainly understand if it feels less fun, but I'm curious if it really taints a whole run on a performance level?[N] Ryme: Or maybe it doesn't matter if it's only X turns difference, if it just feels frustrating the entire time?[N] Harry Dresden: It might slow the run by a few hours because of resting/chip farming. I don't think it's that hard to do a middle-difficulty run just before, though.[N] Jaolen: that i'm honestly not sure about - the biggest problem is just spending some time farming around level 2-3 getting chips to level up[N] Ryme: Another question, I guess, is if you DID a no-pulls run, would that put you into the range where it'd give you more foil for the next, and chaining them after that wouldn't be so hard?[N] Ryme: Is it just getting over the barrier the first time, or does the math not work out so well even for several in a row?[N] Jaolen: it's the barrier for the first time, if you stick with no-pulls, really[N] Ryme: I think I can accept a one-time barrier. This might also be a point of strategy/discussion, to see how some of the other no-pulls players come up with that cash. I've tried to put some low-level jackpots in.[N] Jaolen: you're talking 10 mettle by itself if you do no-pulls, even 3 foil is enough to alleviate the pain[N] Jaolen: yeah, the main point is that while mettle/nocturne's seems to be something to completely remove the concept of lead-in runs, foil requires lead-ins[N] Lxndr: retcon, and the perming of skills, have rendered electronic understanding almost totally useless. any thoughts on that?[N] Ryme: Back to the question from "Lxndr": I would have thought there were enough robots in the low levels to still make Elec Und worth it?[N] Jaolen: ryme: not when you can just perm charge, or firestorm, or something else to kill robots, i think was the point[N] Lxndr: Right. EU is still useful if you have zero access to any non-class skill. [N] Jaolen: since you're still only doing half damage w/ elec understanding[N] Harry Dresden: Not every skill needs to be retcon-relevant. There are still a lot of players who don't do runs, or like being high level.[N] PenguinPyro: Mind jab is fairly redundant in the face of lightning bolt.[N] Ryme: well, there are always going to be new players, or psions in no-permed-skills runs.[N] Ryme: and I think it's necessary to keep around for those cases.[N] Lxndr: what keeps you from just making it the 2nd psion inherent, if we want to keep it around?[N] Lxndr: for those minor cases[N] Jaolen: electronic understanding is a lvl 11 skill to add to that[N] Ryme: If it’s an inherent, then it’s basically just boosting all the psion skills, and isn’t worth much at all.[N] Ryme: Except, I guess, that non-psions would never use psion skills.[N] Jaolen: so with low level robots it's usually better to just use telekinesis anyways, even high-level robots, really[N] PenguinPyro: Or just beat them to death.[N] Ryme shrugs. Guess I don't have an answer for that right now.[N] Ryme: Blackmatter asked about the King. It's on a pretty short list of things to do, but I need to do some specialty coding and just keep putting it off.[N] Ryme: And StrLike asked about a beard zone, which is a meme I don't think I'm going to pander to. Because the other choice is I'd actually do one, and spend 3 weeks researching it, and then everyone would realize it's not that funny when implemented.[N] Lxndr: thank you for a lack of a beard zone [N] Lxndr: (though I would argue beards should be weak against electricity, electrolysis and all)[N] Ryme: there'd be some running joke about a moustache put down for not being "full enough" and undercurrents of misogyny, and it'd be bad.[N] Lxndr: a moustache transportation would lead to all sorts of 'moustache ride' jokes.[N] Ryme: and if there's something this game needs, it's anything but that.[N] Ryme: I will also go on record as saying gadgeteers do really have a second special ability.[N] Ryme: It was coded so long ago it's either glossed over or it helps in cases that players don't put themselves into much.[N] PenguinPyro: It seems to me that gadgies have a much easier time with retcon when I play[N] PenguinPyro: Also, Ryme if I had to guess, would it be improved running away from fights ability?[N] Ryme: you should try running away a few times and check the text, and see if that supports your theory.[N] Lxndr: I still kinda suspect it's "increased computer interaction" which is rather difficult to spade (it seems, as it hasn't happened yet)[N] Zillow: Computer interaction is semi-spaded[N] Lxndr: random thought: I really love villains, but I have to wait quite some time in a given run to unlock them. Is there any way that unlocking could happen in an earlier zone?[N] Ryme: Lx, we've actually talked about some ways to work villains in earlier. One possibility is being able to choose an arch-enemy at retcon, and you'd have increased chances of fighting them, and start with villains unlocked.[N] Nommy: If there are going to be arch enemies, one of them needs to be an arch.[N] Lxndr: This is an idea I completely support, as long as no archenemies are named 'the beard'[N] Ryme: Ivanna would always stick around as a means of locking them again, or for those who want to finish the run first and then unlock them.[N] Ryme: can an archenemy be named "the foot"?[N] Ryme: or the bridge? [N] Nommy: Only if it throws troll at you.[N] Corrupt Shadow: Not if he's a rogue flatfoot[N] Lxndr: clearly one of our archenemies will be "the Keystone"[N] PenguinPyro: I don't know if this is the place of suggestions, but can we have a semi-customizable archenemy?[N] PenguinPyro: Who adapts after every battle.[N] PenguinPyro: Have to come up with new strategies every time.[N] Ryme: customization is so difficult to do well.[N] Corrupt Shadow: That sounds super code-extensive, PP.[N] Lxndr: for retcon: can you split "ability to pull" and "ability to be buffed" into separate categories?[N] Ryme: can? probably, with a lot of coding. I'm not sure I should, though. Pulls got lumped in with the rest of the "interact with the outside world"[N] Ryme: It didn't seem to fit with any other restriction, and I didn't want yet another checkbox.[N] Lxndr: if not, could the language at least be clarified? 'cause it's not clear at all currently.[N] Ryme: I'll check the manual. But I think people pick up on it pretty quickly. [N] The Utah Saint: Will there ever be time-control powers in this game? It doesn't have to be a hero skill- there could just be a villain with bullet-time or something.[N] PenguinPyro: Utah Saint, there's an IotM that can send you back in time a few minutes.[N] Ryme: I think Xentrium is all the time control we're likely to get.[N] Ryme: Shoot we’re already 40 minutes in and we haven’t even started talking about leaderboards, mettle, etc.[N] Ryme: That's been the pressing thing on my mind. Finding balance for the different retcon/mettle options.[N] Ryme: Or determining if we're balanced enough as-is ...[N] Lxndr: given her purported loyalty, can the night mare be a free pull?[N] Ryme: Free pulls are for things that aren't useful. She's far from that.[N] Ryme: The main schools of thought currently seem to be:[N] Ryme: 1) recton's pretty balanced now[N] Ryme: 2) free pulls trump everything far too much to the point of ruining the first three leaderboards[N] Ryme: or 3) free pulls are maybe a touch powerful[N] PenguinPyro: Ryme, I feel that the Naturally Hyper option is far superior to the decaf option.[N] PenguinPyro: Most sugar nets you +1 hour at best[N] Lxndr: yeah, naturally hyper should be +2 instead of +3[N] Ryme: there's some important additions coming with sugar. If I said it was going to get a little more useful, might that mitigate that issue?[N] Harry Dresden: All Items needs more than a 4 mettle penalty, for sure.[N] Ryme: Harry's comment above isn't uncommon, but is often countered with something along the lines of "punishing people for having and using their things is mean"[N] PenguinPyro: It's not mean if self-inflicted[N] Ryme: And there's many options. One is limiting specific types of items, like squid discs.[N] Ryme: Another might be to make the -4 become "many pulls" rather than "all pulls". Like 20-ish. So it's a lot, but not everything. [N] Patojonas: raising the mettle penalty should be enough....[N] Ryme: And then have a harder penalty on "all pulls"[N] PenguinPyro: Ryme, how about everything non-consumable?[N] Ryme: that's possible, too, but I can say from my KoL days it's pulling consumables that's really the biggest relief for me.[N] Ryme: Of course their crafting of food is more complex than most of our caffeine.[N] NardoLoopa: all-pulls cheapens a run to the point of making it a meaningless accomplishment.[N] Ryme: What bothers me most is "all pulls" reaches through three of the four leaderboards. If it was just one, or maybe two, I'd feel better. [N] PenguinPyro: Yeah, all-pulls makes everything ridiculously easy for those who know their equipment.[N] Ryme: But coming from another angle, maybe it's the leaderboards themselves that are the sticking point.[N] NardoLoopa: agreed. Though I also think there's a certain incompatibility in the various pull options and leaderboards. [N] NardoLoopa: for example, in the current leaderboard situation, what is the top no-pull run? [N] Ryme: hell if I know, NL. But that's why I said it bothers me when they reach into the 3rd bracket.[N] Ryme: There have always been plans for more advanced boards, including filtering/searching specific types[N] Ryme: But if the main brackets take a bit of a back seat compared to more dynamic boards, it may matter less.[N] Ryme: You can compare your run to people who have identical runs, or nearly identical ones, for better competition.[N] Ryme: The thing I don't want to lose is the bit of highlight that some default boards offer.[N]Ryme: If everything's customizable, we've got ~300 different boards, and then it's difficult to have any sort of baseline or common field to acknowledge some of the great accomplishments. [N] NardoLoopa: I think the static leaderboards should showcase the most different kinds of runs out there.[N] NardoLoopa: that is, whatever makes runs the most different, should be the criterion that seperates boards.[N] Ryme: I think I'd need to see a one-page thesis explaining that, Nardo, rather than one line. Feel free to extrapolate on the forums later. [N] Ryme: Anyway, that's why I say I don't have answers. Still questioning things at this point.[N] Corrupt Shadow: Ryme, do you really think the AH will remain a viable way to sell/auction anything?[N] Ryme: AH needs some improvements, but I think it'll have niche uses. People who really want their item bid up to the highest value, or selling low-value items in bulk.[N] Lxndr: Can one have a subscription to the AH, so they can be notified if something arrives? [N] Ryme: I don't want to go with subscriptions. [N] Corrupt Shadow: Maybe ditch the categories, and just go with a global auction house?[N] Ryme: I think it also needs to just have everything put into one pool, instead of keeping the categorie... what you said. [N] Ryme: But another fix may be making it work better with retcon restrictions, so stuff can be managed even in-run, like the mall.[N] Ryme: We're running out of time. What other questions/comments are there?[N] Patojonas: Do you have any ideas for a zone about the river that splits the city? Or the highway that also split the map?[N] Ryme: never really thought about it. Early concepts for the game had a "direct traffic over the bridge" adventures in it. [N] Corrupt Shadow: I think we need a subway quest... maybe a side-quest that stems off of a hole in the sewers???[N] PenguinPyro: Question. Was it intended that welding items is nearly totally useless during a run?[N] Ryme: Not at all, PP. Are they?[N] PenguinPyro: I find there are better alternatives to most tritanium/titanium/c ryonite/pentium/plas teel items.[N] PenguinPyro: Cavorite items are useful, but that's pretty late-game.[N] Patojonas: not everything has to be about runs...[N] Ryme: are we talking in no-pulls runs, Penguin?[N] PenguinPyro: In limited-pulls runs.[N] Ryme doesn't know enough about strategy...[N] Ryme Also want to go on record for a couple of points:[N] Ryme: 1) event starting at rollover this evening at rollover[N] Ryme: 2) redundant is redundant[N] Ryme: 3) I know things have been quiet this month, but I've beenw orking hard on an expansive pair of zones.[N] Ryme: 4) We're also working on mall upgrades and some other smaller things. They all keep interrupting each other.[N] Ryme: so hopefully you'll get a lot in a row, once the jam breaks free.[N] Shiny: I have what I imagine is a very simple interfact request.[N] Shiny: It'd be nice if you had a link to your garage when you bought transportation at the Used Car Lot.[N] PenguinPyro: Seconded. There's similar links for computers and the black box.[N] Ryme: Hm. There's probably a lot of points like that. I always worry they'll get out of control, but I also recognize the two-clicks for hideout things can be annoying.[N] Corrupt Shadow wishes Passable Pilot were a permable skill.[N] Ryme: Passable Pilot is also one of those intentional restrictions. Flying isn't supposed to be easy to come by. [N] Ryme: Anything that replaces that knowledge has to be a serious sacrifice.[N] PenguinPyro: I know it's not a problem for most people and won't be for a while, but what if we run out of things to buy in Nocturne's?[N] Shiny: There are always consumables, PP[N] Lxndr: ah yes: why can we sell the consumables from nocturnes, but not anything else? (I vote that nothing should be allowed to be sold)[N] Ryme: Dunno, Penguin. Consumables, and those are tradeable, too, right?[N] Ryme: Or do no-pulls runs so you can spend more.[N] Ryme: selling consumables is sort of an intentional outlet for those extra mettle, mostly. Also a way for people who, say, can't donate, to invest time for chips.[N] Ryme: If you're willing to do tough runs for mettle, maybe you can earn a few IotM while still retconning.[N] Ryme doesn't know if it's possible, but he likes the theory[N] Lxndr: so it's an indirect way of allowing mettle to be converted into silver stars?[N] Ryme: stars, chips, whatever[N] Ryme: Not just non-donators. I know any avid retconner is giving up "wealth" by retconning instead of farming. If some of that can be regained, it may help a bit.[N] Ryme: anyway, we're over the normal time. I think I'm going to wrap things up now.[N] Ryme: thanks to everyone for showing up and giving me a good grilling. Hope it was informative, and will lead to some good choices in the future.[N] Ryme: If we make any big changes to retcon, it'll probably be in March-ish, as a sort of 6-month refinement.[N] Ryme: Oh, and one last note[N] Ryme: Harry Dresden is officially Head Mod these days. He's going to be the guy players should talk to if there are ever questions/complaints about other mods.[N] Ryme: If you've got questions about Harry, you can ask me. But you're probably wrong. [N] Ryme: Just wanted that to go on record somewhere.[N] Ryme: Okay, g'night folks!

This reminds me... we should probably look at the Nocturne sugar. It seems a little weak.

Also, at the extremes, Tame is very, very powerful. Of course, that involves maxing the hell out of your FT, going to the Triassic park and stunning while you spend 20 or 30 combat rounds trying to get tame to actually work.

In normal situations, it has built in limiters. Specifically: the animal is chewing on your face while you're trying to get it to work; it can only be used on a narrow class of foes; you get no chips and no items when you use it. If you lean too heavily on Tame (especially in the Bay), you may find yourself missing useful gear and short on cash to buy your next level.

Quote:

[N] Jaolen: a big pain point for me is getting into no-pulls runs - it's super beneficial to have like ~4 gold foils to start those runs (1200 chips + a foil poncho), but you need to lead in to get it

[N] Jaolen: that i'm honestly not sure about - the biggest problem is just spending some time farming around level 2-3 getting chips to level up

You're overstating things a little. I recently went in to a no-pull run after doing an all items run, and I still had 3 foil. You can just squeeze into managing 3 foil when you do an all item run. You have to take every other restriction, but it can be done. And if you're having trouble with chips after selling 2 foils, you're 1) doing something wrong and 2) can do the level 3.5 B Quest for 2000 chips.

And speaking of all item runs... fie on you people. They're fine. You want to compete? Come down to Dawn where the big boys and girls play. More importantly, the huge advantages of all items are slowly being whittled down: consumable items. And chips. To swing my last 2 day run, I spent around 300,000 chips buying needed consumables from the mall because I had used mine up. I literally used hundreds of consumables on that run. My personal stockpiles are pretty much depleted now. Granted, I'm substituting brute force for finesse, but there's going to come a point when people can't afford to keep doing this nonsense.

Honestly, having a rolling board will solve most of these supposed "problems".

_________________The churches are empty / The priest has gone home / And we are left standing / Together alone--October Project: "Dark Time"

[N] Ryme: I think I'd need to see a one-page thesis explaining that, Nardo, rather than one line. Feel free to extrapolate on the forums later.

I feel like it would be beneficial to have leaderboards be arranged by the limitations selected rather than by mettle. It seems clear that a 10-mettle run can vary so wildly that having a board showcasing 10-14 mettle runs basically forces one style of run within that range to the top while displacing all other runs within that category that do not fit that mold. I'm not sure what the best solution is, since there are so many options for a given run. However, I think something similar to the kol in-game boards could work nicely. Ergo:

Quote:

Main board: all items (every run using all-items would be eligible)sub board: all items, caffeine onlysub board: all items, sugar onlysub board: all items, no consumablessub board: all items, naturally hyper (Sidekick limitations don't seem nearly as important as the above so they probably don't deserve their own sub board)

This format could be extended to all the pull restrictions (10-pull, 5-pull, no pull), with maso having its own board. I'm not sure how class plays into things, but people seem to think they are pretty balanced so it shouldn't matter. Just my two cents. I'm still not sure exactly how the speed game works, but I have a rather great understanding of how kol operates so I'm throwing in my semi-outsider opinion.

I see where you are coming from mara, and it's been talked about, but there are 150 different combinations possible, 600 if you count class. Having all boards is like having no default board, essentially. I think the Leaderboards Phase II that lets you look for any combination you like (i.e., KoLDB) is good, but I think having *some* kind of simple defaults is still handy for fostering competition.

I'm pretty sure PP is right and the gadgeteer runs away better. I remember getting a message about pulling out a grappling hook type device (in the Batman "where does he get those wonderful toys" vein) and running away by pressing a button).

And Cris - what kinds of consumables are the ones you find useful for runs? Is it mainly caffeine, sugar and squids or is anything else useful? (Thinking mainly about what to stock in the mall)

They were abstainer runs, so no caffeine or sugar, but I made extensive use of a massive pile of various combat items, restorers, and buffing items. I wasn't especially optimal or efficient, I just tended to burn my way through anything in my way, inflating its FT as much as possible and fighting way beyond my level. And I once spent 40 combat rounds trying to tame a gryphon (hence all the stunners and drowsing rods I used).

Oh, and computer codes. I swear... city map codes are worth their weight in gold.

_________________The churches are empty / The priest has gone home / And we are left standing / Together alone--October Project: "Dark Time"

I see where you are coming from mara, and it's been talked about, but there are 150 different combinations possible, 600 if you count class. Having all boards is like having no default board, essentially. I think the Leaderboards Phase II that lets you look for any combination you like (i.e., KoLDB) is good, but I think having *some* kind of simple defaults is still handy for fostering competition.

That's why I purposely omitted some things. Using mettle ranges is no more all-inclusive than just excluding certain restrictions (skills and sidekicks). When you look at how many pulls and what was consumed, I feel like you get a pretty fair indication of what people performing at the highest level for a given run type are doing.