Thank you. I had debated on whether or not to bother with it because I knew it would take an hour or so to write out, but I'm glad someone got something from it

There's just a whole lot more to it than most people realize. I'd just like to see how good Crosby could be with a couple of season under his belt with a good, quality holder. On the Packers' roster, Flynn is that guy, hands down.

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Thank you for taking the time to explain that. It adds a whole new perspective and explains a lot about the kicking process that some of would not of been aware of. I have a lot more respect for these kickers! Not that I didn't have respect for them to begin with, I just understand it a lot more now. It's not just a kick that dang ball thing. Thanks for the insight!

I'm glad you got something from it, Kitten. I just thought since so many people apparently think I'm an idiot for defending Crosby, it would do well for me to try to give some insight into my reasoning. I guess I'm just seeing it from a different perspective than the average fan.

I'm glad you got something from it, Kitten. I just thought since so many people apparently think I'm an idiot for defending Crosby, it would do well for me to try to give some insight into my reasoning. I guess I'm just seeing it from a different perspective than the average fan.

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Idiot? Absolutely not.

Wrong? Oh yes.

I understand the complications of kicking. Soccer is my #1 sport, so I understand the mechanics.

And, yes, a lot of Crosby's misses have been a direct reason of protection breakdown, bad snapping and bad holding.

But it happens to every kicker in the league. There isn't a single team out there that doesn't suffer from the same mistakes.

Yet he continues to fall into the bottom rankings of the NFL.

And not only that, but his reportedly huge leg hasn't had an affect in kickoffs. At Atlanta, in a dome, he only generated one touchback.

In contrast, I've counted 4 times where he kicked the ball out of bound, generating a 40 yard starting position for the opponent.

Oh no. Until you give a kicker a competent holder, you don't know what you have in him. A bunch of people want that Nebraska kid. Great! They want to sign an "elite" kicker from around the league. Fine. But whoever that kicker might be, if you give him an inexperienced holder like Masthay, or Kapinos last year, he'll struggle and that is a FACT.

I understand the complications of kicking. Soccer is my #1 sport, so I understand the mechanics.

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Sorry, but kicking a soccer ball doesn't have the same complexities that go into a field goal. There are no holders in soccer.

And, yes, a lot of Crosby's misses have been a direct reason of protection breakdown, bad snapping and bad holding.

But it happens to every kicker in the league. There isn't a single team out there that doesn't suffer from the same mistakes.

Yet he continues to fall into the bottom rankings of the NFL.

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Absolutely not true at all. The best kickers have good holders, you still seem to want to downplay the importance of the holder, which indicates that your soccer expertise has NOT given you the understanding of field goal kicking that you think you have. You seem to think that all holders are equal, but the truth of the matter is that there is a wide disparity between the best and worst holders. Here's a short article about Vanderjagt's holder he had for several years, Hunter Smith.

And not only that, but his reportedly huge leg hasn't had an affect in kickoffs. At Atlanta, in a dome, he only generated one touchback.

In contrast, I've counted 4 times where he kicked the ball out of bound, generating a 40 yard starting position for the opponent.

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That's because Slocum wants him kicking the ball high to give the coverage more time to get downfield. Before Slocum started that crap, he was 6th in the league over his first 3 seasons in touchbacks. Another reason is because returners aren't afraid to return it from 5 yards deep in the endzone. The touchback thing is 100% on Slocum.

And if you STILL don't think Crosby has a big leg, consider this 69-yard FG attempt in cold weather with a strong wind in his face:

By the way, for those who like to point the the fact that he has never had an 80% season, if he didn't have such a strong leg, he'd have two of them. If Crosby had not been asked to attempt to break the NFL record by 6 yards with the wind in his face (which he almost did anyway), he would have had an 81.8% success rate for 2008. If he had actually made it, he would have been at 82.3%. That's what happens when you have a guy like Flynn as your holder for a full season.

In 2007, he also had 2 attempts from 60+ yards, which brought his overall percentage under 80%. Most kickers aren't asked to try those because they don't have the leg for it.

But what happened when they took Flynn away in 2009-10? His percentage dropped 5-6 percent. (6-7% if you exclude 60+ yarders from the equation). I'm sorry folks; the naysayers can say what they want, but all of the actual evidence indicates that we have a pretty good kicker in Crosby with a pretty damn lousy holder the past two years.

It would make a whole hell of a lot more sense if instead of screaming to can Crosby, people were screaming to give the holding job back to Flynn.

Oh no. Until you give a kicker a competent holder, you don't know what you have in him. A bunch of people want that Nebraska kid. Great! They want to sign an "elite" kicker from around the league. Fine. But whoever that kicker might be, if you give him an inexperienced holder like Masthay, or Kapinos last year, he'll struggle and that is a FACT.

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So all the other teams in the league have competent holders, except the Packers?

Sorry, but kicking a soccer ball doesn't have the same complexities that go into a field goal. There are no holders in soccer.

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Clearly you have never played soccer. There are no goalkeepers in football.

Absolutely not true at all. The best kickers have good holders, you still seem to want to downplay the importance of the holder, which indicates that your soccer expertise has NOT given you the understanding of field goal kicking that you think you have. You seem to think that all holders are equal, but the truth of the matter is that there is a wide disparity between the best and worst holders. Here's a short article about Vanderjagt's holder he had for several years, Hunter Smith.

No, I'm not saying it doesn't interfere. I did say it does. I'm saying it's that the percentage of times it interferes is irrelevant, because it happens league wide.
Again, it's very convenient that the blame is put on the holder, and it doesn't translate to every team in the NFL.
The Packers have had different holders in his tenure. You mentioned Matt Flynn as a good holder, yet he struggled even with him.

What's the one constant in all those years he has been kicking and struggling?

That's because Slocum wants him kicking the ball high to give the coverage more time to get downfield. Before Slocum started that crap, he was 6th in the league over his first 3 seasons in touchbacks. Another reason is because returners aren't afraid to return it from 5 yards deep in the endzone. The touchback thing is 100% on Slocum.

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Yes, it is Slocum's strategy. But it wasn't before, and we were getting killed in kickoff returns. He changed the strategy for a reason.

And care to show me the link to where he was 6th in touchbacks?

And if you STILL don't think Crosby has a big leg, consider this 69-yard FG attempt in cold weather with a strong wind in his face:

Oh, no, I do think that he has a huge leg. I just it's not productive, as it doesn't translate to better long range %, nor it does to more touchbacks.

By the way, for those who like to point the the fact that he has never had an 80% season, if Crosby had not been asked to attempt to break the NFL record by 6 yards with the wind in his face (which he almost did anyway), he would have had an 81.8% success rate for 2008. If he had actually made it, he would have been at 82.3%. That's what happens when you have a guy like Flynn as your holder for a full season.

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And if my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle. A poster has already proven that Crosby actually has a worse long FG % than Longwell, who has a weak leg.

[qupte]
In 2007, he also had 2 attempts from 60+ yards, which brought his overall percentage under 80%.

But what happened when they took Flynn away in 2009-10? His percentage dropped 5-6 percent. (6-7% if you exclude 60+ yarders from the equation). I'm sorry folks, but the naysayers can say what they want, but all of the actual evidence indicates that we have a pretty good kicker in Crosby with a pretty damn lousy holder the past two years.[/QUOTE]
Why do you keep excluding FGs he attempted? Let's also exclude FGs that others attempted and missed, then...

So all the other teams in the league have competent holders, except the Packers?

Clearly you have never played soccer. There are no goalkeepers in football.

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Pardon me, but I'm not impressed with your soccer credentials. This is FOOTBALL. First, why the hell would I want to play soccer? Second, it's irrelevant. If I had an nickle for every soccer player who thought they knew something about kicking field goals... It's apples and oranges. Have you ever played on a FG squad? Didn't think so.

No, I'm not saying it doesn't interfere. I did say it does. I'm saying it's that the percentage of times it interferes is irrelevant, because it happens league wide.

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It's entirely relevant! If you have a holder that screws up 40% of the time, his kicker is going to miss a LOT more FGs than a holder who only screws up 5% of the time.

Again, it's very convenient that the blame is put on the holder,

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As holders go, I've BEEN THERE, DONE THAT for 3 seasons in college. I think I know a little bit about what it takes to do it right.

The Packers have had different holders in his tenure. You mentioned Matt Flynn as a good holder, yet he struggled even with him.

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He was considerably more accurate with Flynn.

Yes, it is Slocum's strategy. But it wasn't before, and we were getting killed in kickoff returns. He changed the strategy for a reason.

Oh, no, I do think that he has a huge leg. I just it's not productive, as it doesn't translate to better long range %, nor it does to more touchbacks.

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Again with the B.S. touchback complaint. He's kicking high and short because that's what Slocum wants.

A poster has already proven that Crosby actually has a worse long FG % than Longwell, who has a weak leg.

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Longwell also wasn't asked to make 60 yard FGs, which historically have about a 20% success rate.

In 2007, he also had 2 attempts from 60+ yards, which brought his overall percentage under 80%.

But what happened when they took Flynn away in 2009-10? His percentage dropped 5-6 percent. (6-7% if you exclude 60+ yarders from the equation). I'm sorry folks, but the naysayers can say what they want, but all of the actual evidence indicates that we have a pretty good kicker in Crosby with a pretty damn lousy holder the past two years.

Why do you keep excluding FGs he attempted? Let's also exclude FGs that others attempted and missed, then...

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Fine. I have no problem excluding 60+ yard attempts from kickers' stats. They're a statistical aberration. They're usually not successful, no matter who is kicking them. Making them at that distance requires a strong leg, perfect execution from everyone involved and a good dose of luck.

Sorry, but the simple fact is that your blame is misplaced. Fortunately, the Packers understand that much more than you do.

Thank you. I had debated on whether or not to bother with it because I knew it would take an hour or so to write out, but I'm glad someone got something from it

There's just a whole lot more to it than most people realize. I'd just like to see how good Crosby could be with a couple of season under his belt with a good, quality holder. On the Packers' roster, Flynn is that guy, hands down.

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If his holders are his main draw back, let him drop-kick the ball,
still legal under NFL rules and eliminates a holder. That will eliminate one of his/ your excuses.

You still have no idea what goes into making a field goal, do you? Ignorance is bliss, so they say....

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First of all, I commend you for holding on to your beliefs, I admire that. Secondly, please try to a get a sense of humor. Thirdly, you might be right about ignorance is bliss, I feel very blissful right now.

In the interest in keeping the peace, perhaps we can just concede that all opinions posted in this thread are valid in some respect. I for one have learned a lot of valuable information in this thread but I think it has gotten to the point where we are rehashing the same point(s) over and over. Just my thoughts.... I think now the ball is in Crosby's hands, or at his feet rather and it is up to him to become the kicker he was either meant to be or not.

Pardon me, but I'm not impressed with your soccer credentials. This is FOOTBALL. First, why the hell would I want to play soccer? Second, it's irrelevant. If I had an nickle for every soccer player who thought they knew something about kicking field goals... It's apples and oranges. Have you ever played on a FG squad? Didn't think so.

It's entirely relevant! If you have a holder that screws up 40% of the time, his kicker is going to miss a LOT more FGs than a holder who only screws up 5% of the time.

As holders go, I've BEEN THERE, DONE THAT for 3 seasons in college. I think I know a little bit about what it takes to do it right.

Again with the B.S. touchback complaint. He's kicking high and short because that's what Slocum wants.

Longwell also wasn't asked to make 60 yard FGs, which historically have about a 20% success rate.

Fine. I have no problem excluding 60+ yard attempts from kickers' stats. They're a statistical aberration. They're usually not successful, no matter who is kicking them. Making them at that distance requires a strong leg, perfect execution from everyone involved and a good dose of luck.

Sorry, but the simple fact is that your blame is misplaced. Fortunately, the Packers understand that much more than you do.

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Why do you half quote me? I ask that you quote me entirely next time. It's no harm in breaking my comments, but if you're gonna rebute every sentence, do place every sentence and in the order they appear.

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And why can't you understand that other teams also have holding, protection and snapping problems, yet other kickers perform much better?????

And that Mason Crosby's big leg isn't a plus, since he can't be accurate at a long distance.

Crosby is #16 in FGs from 50+.
And don't blame it on attempts.
Robie Gould, Jason Hanson and John Kasay have the same number of attempts, but are ranked ahead of him.
Dan Carpenter has attempted 6 kicks, making 4 of them. And he has attempted a 60+ yarded.

Crosby is 4-2 for 50%.

Also, on the matter of clutchness.
Mason Crosby has 1 game winning FG. It was his first game, against the Eagles, in 07. You know very well what a game winning FG is, it's not 9-0 against the Jets, for crying out loud.

He has, that I remember, missed 2 such chances in 08, against the Vikings and the Bears.

Also, in two other games, against Arizona in 09, and against Washington in 10', games that went to overtime, he had missed oportunities that, in the end, would've won the game for us.

I finish this with two simple questions:
1) Do you think his production is good enough?
2) Do you trust him to kick a 40-49 game winning FG?

I respond negatively to both questions, and that's why I want him replaced, and have wanted so since early last year. (Have also called for Slocum's head since day one, given that he's essencially a continuation of the "Stock era".)

In the interest in keeping the peace, perhaps we can just concede that all opinions posted in this thread are valid in some respect. I for one have learned a lot of valuable information in this thread but I think it has gotten to the point where we are rehashing the same point(s) over and over. Just my thoughts.... I think now the ball is in Crosby's hands, or at his feet rather and it is up to him to become the kicker he was either meant to be or not.

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Agreed, but while nobody is going to concede, what's the point of a forum if not discussion?

Why do you half quote me? I ask that you quote me entirely next time. It's no harm in breaking my comments, but if you're gonna rebute every sentence, do place every sentence and in the order they appear.

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And why can't you understand that other teams also have holding, protection and snapping problems, yet other kickers perform much better?????

And that Mason Crosby's big leg isn't a plus, since he can't be accurate at a long distance.

Crosby is #16 in FGs from 50+.
And don't blame it on attempts.
Robie Gould, Jason Hanson and John Kasay have the same number of attempts, but are ranked ahead of him.
Dan Carpenter has attempted 6 kicks, making 4 of them. And he has attempted a 60+ yarded.

Crosby is 4-2 for 50%.

Also, on the matter of clutchness.
Mason Crosby has 1 game winning FG. It was his first game, against the Eagles, in 07. You know very well what a game winning FG is, it's not 9-0 against the Jets, for crying out loud.

He has, that I remember, missed 2 such chances in 08, against the Vikings and the Bears.

Also, in two other games, against Arizona in 09, and against Washington in 10', games that went to overtime, he had missed oportunities that, in the end, would've won the game for us.

I finish this with two simple questions:
1) Do you think his production is good enough?
2) Do you trust him to kick a 40-49 game winning FG?

I respond negatively to both questions, and that's why I want him replaced, and have wanted so since early last year. (Have also called for Slocum's head since day one, given that he's essencially a continuation of the "Stock era".)

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there ya have it. this is where the argument began in the first place, and thats Crosby's inability to kick us to victory.

hes missed more than any of us would like and the bottom line is the majority of us do not feel comfortable with him kicking...

his holder isnt gonna change for the rest of the year so the bottom line are the two questions that PackersRS asks. My answers are definitely no to both. at least until he proves himself

Crosby is #16 in FGs from 50+.
And don't blame it on attempts.
Robie Gould, Jason Hanson and John Kasay have the same number of attempts, but are ranked ahead of him.
Dan Carpenter has attempted 6 kicks, making 4 of them. And he has attempted a 60+ yarded.

Crosby is 4-2 for 50%.

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Right, which is as good or better than half of the league.

Also, on the matter of clutchness.
Mason Crosby has 1 game winning FG. It was his first game, against the Eagles, in 07. You know very well what a game winning FG is, it's not 9-0 against the Jets, for crying out loud.

He has, that I remember, missed 2 such chances in 08, against the Vikings and the Bears.

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The so-called "clutchness" factor also applies to the holder, especially as inexperienced as ours have been the last two years. Oh, wait, that's right. You're the one who thinks the blame for any missed kick always goes to the kicker. It doesn't require any talent to hold kicks, after all, am I right? All holders are equal? A 4 year-old can do it? Does that about sum up your position, even though you've never held a kick in your life?

Also, in two other games, against Arizona in 09, and against Washington in 10', games that went to overtime, he had missed oportunities that, in the end, would've won the game for us.

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Well, in that case I guess you better cross Robbie Gould off the list. Dan Carpenter too. Same with Jason Hanson, Josh Brown, and John Kasay.

You should probably remove Baronis, Longwell, Feely, Tynes, Bryant, Prater from consideration too. They all missed kicks in games they lost too this year. But they were lucky enough that their teams' offenses to sucked enough for it not to matter. The Packer offense is pretty good, so those guys would have probably been guilty of the same crime if they had been Packers this year.

I finish this with two simple questions:
1) Do you think his production is good enough?
2) Do you trust him to kick a 40-49 game winning FG?

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Yes. And yes. Masthay is not a good holder and I reject the claim that his inconsistency is irrelevant, as you want to pretend.

I respond negatively to both questions, and that's why I want him replaced, and have wanted so since early last year.

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So you admit that you clearly still lack any understanding of the importance of providing your kicker with a good, experienced holder?

Or should I bow to your superior knowledge on the topic since you're a Supermod soccer player on a web forum, which apparently carries more credibility than my own experience holding for 109 kicks in college (yes, I know the exact number.) which I learned to do pretty well from Dave Krieg at Del Greco's kicking camp?