Well, it's got the Surly beat on style because of the lugs and decal placement. Also, the tubes are oddly sized on the LHT (huge downtube). Don't forget that you can use caliper brakes instead of cantis (not sure about anyone else, but aside from massize tire size, calipers got the cantis beat.

I recently sold my LHT and bought a Hillborne frameset and you can definately tell that there's quite a difference in frame flex (much more in the Surly). Any out of the saddle action on the Surly makes it feel like a floppy noodle (and I'm a pretty light guy). Besides, don't lugs make for stronger joints??

Surlys are great. I own one, and have built countless ones for customers who love them. Touring, Mtn, Freeride, Road, Cross. All good bikes. They are however, intentionally generic in many ways, to keep costs down. Tig welds, paint that turns matte in a year or so, flimsy decals, and low cost tubing spec are all part of that package. You get what you pay for, in this case.

So far as I know "ECO" is not a company or a brand. It's not in any Taiwanese catalog or trade referance I've seen. "Eco" is simply a sticker used to denote economical tubing. I really don't know what sort of tubing is used by Kogswell. But my old Kogswell model-P seemed reasonably well built and rode just like a Riv Rambo, so it's probably good stuff.

How will this frame do as a 650b platform? What would be the max width 650b tire and fender that could be used with this frame? How much would the standover height of the 51cm frame drop when using 650b wheels and tires instead of 700c? I love the look of this frame, and the price of it, considering the lugged construction, but I am concerned that even the 51cm model would be too tall for me as I have very short legs and a long torso.

Chris- Considering the number of 650b bicycles that use frames originally designed for 700c wheels, I did not consider it an unreasonable question to ask, especially considering the number of 700c-650b converted bicycles I see pictures of on blogs and/or flickr that use your products. I would have assumed that you would be a bit more accommodating of such customers, considering so many of your products depend on people continuing to use the 650b wheel size. If you are that concerned about customers preserving the sanctity of your original vision for the bike, why not just sell complete bikes instead of just frames?

Le Cagot- The issue is that I want a lugged frame, but i do not have the loot for a Rivendell or other 'custom' frame at the moment. If I do end up having to get a tigged frame, I probably will go with Surly, as they offer a larger range of size options. I like Velo-Orange's products, and I would have been happy to purchase a frame from them if I could get a frame I liked in a size that would fit me, and if my question had not been so summarily dismissed as ridiculous or blasphemous.

Sorry if I was harsh, but putting 650b wheels on a fine frame designed for 700c flies in the face of everything I've tried to do at VO. It's like:

Ketchup with black truffle souffle.

Opus One mixed with fizzy water.

A Ferrari Lusso with flames painted on it.

An Alex Singer with "ape hanger" bars and a banana seat.

We bust our collective butts here to get the handling, proportions, and feel of a frame perfect. Putting 650b wheels on it would make it handle like a... well I actually don't know, but it wouldn't be good.

Please get a 650b TIG welded bike that handles well and is a joy to ride, like a Polyvalent. Lugs are nice, but they are not even close to the importance of proper handling, feel, and ride.

you put 650b's on frames like my 1983 trek road bike that has clearance for 700x25s with no fenders. that kinda bike makes a good conversion, cause its otherwise useless. the rando frame already has a useful tire size range, so.... why convert, other than to jump on the francophile band wagon.

1.How will it do as a 650b? A: Not designed for 650b. With a bit of thought you'll see that that sums up that Chris isn't prepared to offer speculation on how a bike will handle with a wheelsize it wasn't designed for and that he doesn't even have the frames in hand to mount 650b wheels to and try it even if he wanted to.

2.Max 650b width, etc? A. see #1

3. Standover drop with a change to 650b? A:Get yourself a calculator, or Google one of the many times this has already been answered. (also, 3/4"). Also, see #1 and #2.

This is for the size 63 frame (73º HT angle, 53mm offset fork). This is more or less the equivalent difference between running 23mm and 28mm tires in 700c wheel size. I can't speak for others, but I've never noticed a appreciable difference when switching between the two, all other factors remaining the same.

Chris- No worries. Unfortunately, the Polyvalent is a bit too tall for me. Thank you for elucidating. Any chance of sizes for shorter riders in the future?

Johnson- I would convert for three reasons. First and foremost, I have very short legs, like I think I mentioned, so there aren't many 700c bikes that fit me, and I don't like mixtes. The second reason is that a 650b conversion would allow wider tires, for a more comfortable ride with fewer flats. The third reason is that I have never had a bike (except when I was little) that didn't use 26 inch wheels/tires, and I would like something different for a change. The 650b size seems like an ideal compromise between 26in and 700c.

The LHT does not come in a 650b size. Surly has makes it available in 700c (622 bead dia) and 26" (559 bead dia), and it's TIG'ed, and about the same price of the PolyValent.

There are other significant differences between the LHT and PV too: Trail, brazeons, color, headset style, etc. Converting a LHT to 650b (either 26" or 700c will negatively affect the original intent of that geometry too. Surly may be less harsh in their delivery, but the answer probably would have been similar when the LHT was new- "We really don't know. Send us pictures of how the conversion went- we'd like to share that info..."

You can do anything you want with our frames- make them into a tall bike for all we care. It's yours. But please realize we've spent years working on dedicated and purpose built 700c and 650b bikes to handle excellently; tinkering with wheel and component swaps for hypothetical situations is something we (and by WE, I mean any bike company) could not concern ourselves with at the conceptual and prototype level. Once we (or our customers) have some time with the bikes, can we expect the speculation of how a 700 to 650b rando conversion to be borne out.

If you truly want a good handling 650b bike, the options are a little narrow. If you want lugged, expect to pay $2,000 or more and wait weeks or months. If you can deal with a very well constructed and great handling TIG welded 650b frameset with low trail geometry, then a Kog P/R or PolyValent is ready to go now.

Sorry, definitely don't wish to divulge any trade secrets here! However, am seriously considering a 57cm, but at my weight (195lbs) a standard (non-OS) tubing spec with 8/5/8 may be less than ideal for me.

To Anonymous who weighs 195 lb. and is considering a 57cm VO Randonneur and is worried that standard diameter 8/5/8 would be "less than ideal": my Coast-built semi-custom is a 59, I was around 220 when I got it (down to a mere 0.1 tons at present). It's 8/5/8 standard diameter 531, and a nicer feeling bike I couldn't imagine. "Ideal" is exactly how I'd describe it.

I am really interested in this frameset, but every calculation I've tried for trail with a 73HT and 57 fork offset with a 30mm tire shows it to be in the 50 range. That's way more trail than the bike that was evaluated by Bicycle Quarterly. Is the fork offset correctly posted on this bike?

Surly does not make frames for 650b wheels! Nor do they want you to convert. I have a surly lht and would have gladly preferred a bike that can take 650b wheels lugged or not. I have not been happy with the lht either partly because it has 26 inch wheels which are too small. One can convert but I do not have the money to change wheels and put cantelliever brakes on which the lbs had switched to pivot brakes.Some bikes are meant for 700 c wheels and I have a few that are mixtes/lady frames which I can stand over, but being short requires one to sometimes have bikes that are too small because of the stand over height.

No, surly does not make a 650B frame and do not recommend doing a conversion. I have a lht which I am dying to put 650B wheels but have yet to find anyone on the web who has successfully done it with photos and review to prove it. Apparently is very doable if you have 26" wheels and the right brakes.I'd like a 650b bike mainly because I am short, but I hate 26" wheel for anything other than mountain bikes, and even then I ride 27" and 700 wheeled bikes on dirt roads and trails with no problem. I do have a trek 420 that I might convert as there is plenty of evidence of how to do it and how it works.But man, wish I had bought a velo orange instead of surly lht. The lht is like a mountain bike and my husband teases me to no end about that.