On 9/05/2013 Nick Clow wrote:>Rocks>>>...>2000 and 2004 (before there was a guidebook, other than photocopied pages>being passed around.) In retrospect I suppose I should be grateful for>having experienced the place at that time.>

I climbed there a bit in the 90s, with the blue Beecroft Peninsula guidebook, by Mike Peck and John Churchill, which was an 'extension' of the original, which was by Ian Brown and and Peter Blunt. I just emailed Ian about this thread to ask him his opinion.

From the BP guidebook, on p.8 'The Climbing' it doesn't expressly forbid bolts, but does say:

"...with a huge number of pockets of all sizes bolts are remarkably unnecessary if you take the full range of camming devices."

"When used, bolts should be strong..."

"Fixed anchors are seldom essential at the cliff edge for either abseiling or belaying..."

"If you're in a new spot, try a little ingenuity before reaching for the drill. There is just no point catering for the lazy and inept masses here."

I've only climbed there once, back in 95, but I seem to remember climbing some 23 with the odd bolt in it then. Not enough to make me happy, though, i backed off and handed the sharp end over to someone else. That doesn't say much though, I can do that off plenty of routes.

Hey Damo, I think I've got the orginal guidebook. Lucky me! It's called the interim guide. Nick, you should have asked around or gone shopping, 'cause the blue guidebook didn't seem to be that rare at that time. But I can understand it was probably more fun faffing your way around with a sense of mystery. And I'm not suprised the concept of a selfish tradclimber seems an enigma to you.

In attempt to get "back on topic", I reckon the most intersting quotes from the original guide are in the intro:
"... there is no reason to expect this crag will spared the frenzied attention other cliffs have suffered. But please don't do it to established routes. We hope others may find something of what we found here, and keep these cliffs as more (and less) than just another overbolted lycra gynasium"

Damo, I get the preference for a new route to be mixed, if it'll go, and you're right, bolts are a in your face change. What I meant by selfishness is the mindset that says "my way to climb is better, so stuff you". Bolts can do this, but so does trying to apply blanket rules. Either one "locks up" the "resource".

Ok, I know I've blabbed on enough, but lastly, I don't think Monty's new route turns the point into a gym. It could be an overbolted thugfest, but it could also be totally awesome and one of the most fun ways to climb an overhanging pumpy wall. I'll have to bribe someone into dragging me up the thing and find out. And I won't be wearing lycra.

On 9/05/2013 rightarmbad wrote:>And there you go.>We have stumbled across the real answer.>>It's simple!>>All fully sport routes must be climbed in Lycra!>>What better way to keep crapbolting in control!
The first sensible solution I have read in this whole argument!

On 9/05/2013 rightarmbad wrote:>And there you go.>We have stumbled across the real answer.>>It's simple!>>All fully sport routes must be climbed in Lycra!>>What better way to keep crapbolting in control!

On 12/06/2013 nmonteith wrote:>Did another long pitch down at sea level this previous weekend...>>This one is half bolts, half trad and climbs the seam crack and corner>system to the right of the sport routes. Mixmaster, 55m (22) single pitch.

I did one of the routes a few weeks ago and found the rock to be mostly pretty average when it came to looking at gear placements. I would have had a hard time trusting anything I had placed in any of the rock on the first two pitches. There were a few opportunities to place gear instead of clip the rings but I was bloody glad not to have too.

On 12/06/2013 Olbert wrote:>>I did one of the routes a few weeks ago and found the rock to be mostly>pretty average..........

But Neil said that they're mega classics on awesome rock.............and now he's going to develop 3 star loweroff sportclimbs at Bombo (a crag which was considered shithouse by the people who thought Kiera was awesome!)

Well..........he said all those words, in that order. That counts as a quote, doesn't it? ;)

I'm not at all surprised that the opportunity for decent gear is limited on these lower cliff routes. However, I will be somewhat impressed if the rock quality is any better than mediocre........not that mediocre rock is a problem, it's just that you've advertised the rock quality as "excellent". When I go down there (hopefully this w/e), there shall be much heckling if the rock isn't at least pretty good!

One thing I did discover on the weekend is that if there isn't any wind on the rock is gets seriously spoooodgy. The slick rock stays damp (like South Central in bad weather). I'd suggest waiting until after midday before rapping in unless there is a gale blowing.

The routes were actually really good - though probably less intimidating than the usual Point Perp fair. I am actually torn between saying half the rings should be chopped so it's more intimidating and saying that it should all stay because I really bloody enjoyed the route as it is. As it is, I'm not going to do anything about it though will probably be back to climb the other routes down there - and I'm going to clip every bolt available.

On the subject of bolts - I was at Frog recently and seeing the difference between Elven Kings and a whole bunch of the other "sport" routes there on carrots - it really makes a difference to the feel of the route and nearby routes. Elven Kings looked less intimidating than it was because of the great lumps of shiny steel, the other routes all looked intimidating because you had to really look to see the bolts. I like having intimidating routes. I like having non-intimidating routes. I dislike having intimidating routes at intimidating areas rebolted into non-intimidating routes.

On 12/06/2013 One Day Hero wrote:>........not that mediocre rock>is a problem, it's just that you've advertised the rock quality as "excellent".>When I go down there (hopefully this w/e), there shall be much heckling>if the rock isn't at least pretty good!

Actually I have been misquoted! I never wrote the word 'excellent' when I went back and reread my trip report....

On 12/06/2013 nmonteith wrote:>* disclaimer. Some of the rock is excellent. ;-)

Ah, the ol' George Fieg asterisk. My favourite was with regard to a new quartzite crag in the hills behind Canberra "The rock quality is as good as Araps, and there's a 100m cliff!* "

* As it turned out, the Araps rock was on 8m routes (which were all diagonal, the cliff was probably only 6m high), and the 100m cliff was made of decomposing garbage................however, the two separate parts of the claim were kind of true.

On 12/06/2013 One Day Hero wrote:>On 12/06/2013 nmonteith wrote:>>* disclaimer. Some of the rock is excellent. ;-)>>Ah, the ol' George Fieg asterisk. My favourite was with regard to a new>quartzite crag in the hills behind Canberra "The rock quality is as good>as Araps, and there's a 100m cliff!* ">>* As it turned out, the Araps rock was on 8m routes (which were all diagonal,>the cliff was probably only 6m high), and the 100m cliff was made of decomposing>garbage................however, the two separate parts of the claim were>kind of true.