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So, a merge from article to discussion, and then a copy and paste from discussion to article. Does that make sense?

I copied some part of article about と( gray colored sentences). Did it a way you suggested? :) --Coco 03:06, 18 July 2007 (EDT)

Yeah, thanks coco. Do you want the conjugation charts in the article?

I guess making と conditional is very easy because words never conjugate. But it might be kind to put the charts for the beginner. Do you think the conjugation charts is needed?--Coco 10:36, 22 July 2007 (EDT)

You going any place interesting? Gundaetiapo 19:48, 20 July 2007 (EDT)

と

「～と」is used when sentence1 and sentence2 have a constant, repetitive, or continuous relationship. The conditional と expresses a phenomenon that constantly occurs with the condition described in sentence 1.と is a subordinate conjunction which makes S1 a condition, and S2 a result. The nuance that is implied by usage of と is this: if the condition of S1 is satisfied, then the result of S2 follows naturally (and will always be true provided S1 holds true).

In this case, we rather add ものだった/ものでした on the end of sentence to express a speaker's reminiscence.

○寒くなると、よくミスタードーナツで勉強したものだった。

○寒くなると、よくミスタードーナツで勉強したものでした。

Wrong usages of Conditional とsentences

You can find a interrelationship easily between sentence1 and sentence2 which are connected with と.
You can not put following types of sentences after the conditional と.
ⅰ) speaker's will, wish/hope/desire
ⅱ) imperative sentence
ⅲ) request
Since と represents a natural consequence, it cannot be used when the result S2 is dependent on volitional action of someone. For example, S2 cannot be something like a command, invitation, or suggestion. Here is an example of incorrect usage of と:

Example 1

sentence 1: 春になる。
sentence 2: 花見に行きませんか。(asking invitation)

× 春になると、花見に行きませんか

○ 春になったら、花見に行きませんか。

Shall we go to the sakura-watching-party when spring comes?

sentence 2: 花見に行く予定だ。(telling plan/will)

×春になると、花見く予定だ。

○春になったら、花見に行く予定だ。

I'm planning to go watch sakura flowers when spring comes.

Example 2

sentence 1: コインを入れる。
sentence 2: ボタンを押してください。(request)

× コインを入れると 、ボタンを押してください。

○ コインを入れたら、ボタンを押してください。

Please push a button when/after you insert your coins.

Example 3

sentence 1: 掃除機をかける
sentence 2: 窓を開けた方がいい (suggestion/advice)

×掃除機をかけると 、窓を開けた方がいい。

○掃除機をかけるなら、窓を開けた方がいい。

It would be better to open windows if you use a vacuum cleaner.

The speaker would say this if it seems you're about to use a vacuum cleaner．If you'd like to say this as a general consideration,

Usuful expressions

寒ければコートを着なさい。[そうしないと/さもないと]風邪をひきますよ。(mother's speech)= If you feel cold, put on your overcoat. Otherwise you will catch a cold.

急いでください。[そうしないと/さもないと]、会議に間に合いません。=Please hurry or else you/we will be late for the meeting.

シートペルトをしてください。[そうしないと/さもないと ]警察に違反キップを切られますよ。
Fasten the seatbelt. Otherwise the police will give you a ticket.

You can make these forms more casual with V+negative+ と.
(in-group conversation)
コートを着ないと風邪ひくよ。急がないと会議に間に合わないよ。
シートベルトをしないとおまわりさんに違反キップを切られるよ。

なら

「～なら」is used when a speaker expresses his/her own opinion, judgment, or command which can not be expressed in the 「～と」conditional sentence.
One of the features of this usage would be the reply to the person's (whom you are talking) topic. When using なら form, you can say your opinions or suggestions about specific suppositions which the person had just mentioned.

高橋: 天気予報によると、週末に 台風が来る らしいですよ。
Takahashi: According to a weather forecast, the typhoon is coming this weekend.
佐藤: そうですか。台風が来るなら、週末は外出しない方がいいかもしれませんね。
Satou : Oh, really? We might not want to go out this weekend if the typhoon will come.

Usages as topic making

Also you can provide a topic using the なら form, which is not a response speech.

e.g. (in-group)
もし僕がマイケル・ジャクソンなら、チンパンジーじゃなくて、イルカを飼うな。
もし僕がマイケル・ジャクソンだったら、チンパンジーじゃなくてイルカを飼うな。
If I were Michael Jackson, I would keep a dolphin rather than a chimpanzee as a pet.

Usages as limited condition

e.g.
山本さんは豚肉なら食べられますが、牛肉は食べられません。
山本さんは豚肉でしたら召し上がりますが、牛肉は召し上がりません。more polite expression
Ms./Mr. Yamamoto can eat it if it is pork, but can't eat beef.
The meaning is almost the same as 山本さんは豚肉は食べられますが、牛肉は食べられません。( Ms./Mr.Yamanoto can eat pork, but cannot eat beef.) However you can emphasis what food Yamamoto-san can eat or not by using なら.
e.g.
今日は会えませんが、明日の午後なら会えます。
Although I'm not available today, I will be able to meet you/someone if it is tomorrow afternoon.
This is almost the same as 今日は会えませんが、明日の午後は会えます。Using なら has the nuance of limited condition, like saying "tomorrow afternoon only".

ば(eba)

Conjugation

Dictionary form

ば conjugation

Reading

Nouns

休日小学校

休日なら（ば）小学校なら（ば）

きゅうじつなら（ば）しょうがっこうなら（ば）

な adjectives

立派なきれいな

立派なら（ば）きれいなら（ば）

りっぱなら（ば）きれいなら（ば）

い adjectives

いい大きい

よければ大きければ

よければおおきければ

Irregular verbs

来る勉強する

来れば勉強すれば

くればべんきょうすれば

Ichidan verbs

あげる食べる

あげれば食べれば

あげればたべれば

Godan verbs

もらう言う

もらえば言えば

もらえばいえば

Examples

A requirement/conditions to make a status of sentence 2 is placed in sentence 1.

What's the Japanese for this sentence? Gundaetiapo 20:46, 18 August 2007 (EDT)

I think ならば could have a nuance of " only if". I suppose it might be ～の場合に限って. What do you think about ～さえ + ば～ form. (これはJLPT 2級文法です。)

For example;

田中さんさえ飛行機に乗り遅れなければ、今ごろはみんなハワイに着いているのになぁ。

If only Tanaka had made it, we'd be in Hawaii right about now. (?)

水さえ飲んでいれば、人間は30日も生きられるらしい。

If you just drink water, you can live 30 days. (?)

Do you think さえ+ ば would be " (if and)only if " ?

On the other hand, 塵も積もれば山となる, 降れば土砂降り、犬もあるけば棒にあたる don't have its meaning. Also ば in " 3時になれば、(先生がいらっしゃいます。)" would not be " if and only if ".

So, " if and only if" might not be an explanation of ば.

Would these be a sort of answer? Or am I misreading your question? --Coco 09:38, 22 August 2007 (EDT)

わかりました。「ばconditional」、「iff」のような表現じゃなさそうですね。ご説明ありがとうございます。

Intended: I see, So it sounds like the ば conditional isn't iff. Thanks for your explanation. Gundaetiapo 20:29, 22 August 2007 (EDT)

1)
sentence 1 (postulation)= 天気がいい sentence 2 = 東京からも富士山が見える。
天気がよければ 、東京からも富士山が見えます。
You can see Mt.Fuji from even Tokyo if the weather is clear.
(You might not be able to see Mt.Fuji from Tokyo if the weather isn't clear.)

Both of these sentences sound good. Gundaetiapo 20:46, 18 August 2007 (EDT)

This is very similar to ～と usage because the presupposition expressed in the sentence 1 forms the status expressed in sentence 2, has a repetitive interrelationship.
So you can say

天気がいいと 、東京からも富士山が見えます。
晴れていれば、東京からも富士山が見えます。
晴れていると 、東京からも富士山が見えます。

2)
sentence 1 = 3時になる sentence 2 = 岡田先生が来る (いらっしゃる is the 尊敬語 of 来る.)

3時になれば、岡田先生がいらっしゃいます。
Professor Okada will come here when it is 3 o'clock.
You can say also
3時になると、岡田先生がいらっしゃいます。
When it is 3 o'clock, professor Okada comes here．

「3時になると 、岡田先生がいらっしゃいます。」implies that the professor repetitively comes up there at 3:00 every day. Meanwhile, 「3時になれば、岡田先生がいらっしゃいます」means the speaker knows the professor's schedule on that day, does't mention the other days.

「雨が降ると、花火大会は中止されます」rather has a tone of something like an empirical rule.( e.g.: Generally, fireworks exhibitions are canceled when it rains.) But 「 雨が降れば、花火大会は中止です」 mentions about "The fireworks exhibition" which you are anxious about.

4)
You can express a contrary-to-fact condition by using conditional ば. In this case sentence 2 is always the past tense.

×報告書が完成すれば、すぐに提出してください。
○報告書が完成したら、すぐに提出してください。
Please submit your report as soon as you made up it.(?)/ Please submit your report immediately when you finished it.(?)

「～ば」 forms in the proverbs.

降れば土砂降(どしゃぶ)り。= It doesn't rain but it pours.
ちり(塵)も積もれば山となる。= Penny and penny laid up will be many. /Many small make a great.
犬も歩けば棒にあたる。= The beast that goes always never wants blows./The dog that trots about finds a bone./A flying crow always catches something.

Useful expressions (probably)

You can ask " how can I do/how shold I do" with どうすれば.
どうすれば、[きっぷ/チケット]を安く買えますか? = How can I buy the ticket cheaper? (?)(*Generally チケットis used for flight tickets, きっぷ is used for train tickets.)
どうすれば、そこに泊まれますか? = How can I stay over nights there? (?)
どうすれば、そこに行けるのかわかりません。= I don't know how I can get there.(?)
どうすれば、パンディオンをインストールできるのかわかりません。= I don't know what to do to install the Pandion. (?)
どうすればいいか、教えてください。= Please tell me how shold I do.(?)

たら

「～たら」 is widely used as a conditional form.

e.g.
15歳の頃の自分と対面できるとしたら、言っておきたいことは?
If you were able to meet with yourself aged around 15 years old, what would you like to say to her/him? (?)

In this case
○15歳の頃の自分と対面できるなら
○15歳の頃の自分と対面できるとすれば
×15歳の頃の自分と対面できると

1日がもし25時間だったら、その1時間で何をしますか?
If one day had 25hours, what will you do during the extra hour? (?)
In this case
○1日がもし25時間なら/ならば (→ See なら uesge above)
○1日がもし25時間だとすれば
×1日がもし25時間だと

Difference between なら and たら (tense)

Please care the tense, otherwise the turn goes upside down.

大学に入るなら、本をたくさん読みなさい。(more about なさい)
大学に入るんだったら、本をたくさん読みなさい。
大学に入るのであれば、本をたくさん読みなさい。
Read tons of books if you are going to a university/college.(?)

All of these are saying same things. This is an advice/suggestion to read books for the preparation of an enrollment.

大学に入ったら、本をたくさん読みなさい。
Read tons of books when you go to a university/college.(?)
Read tons of books when you become a university/college student.(?)

This is an advice/suggestion to undergraduate students/college student. A speaker don't mention about the preparation for an enrollment. Just advises your attitude for learning as a college/university student.

The following slogan, which is used as an prohibition campaign of drinkers' driving, would be good to learn the difference between なら and たら/だら.

「飲んだら乗るな、乗るなら飲むな!」
Do not drive a car when you've been drinking,
and do not drink (any alcohol) if you are going to drive a car.

飲んだら is the conditional of posteriority. This command mentions "after your action(= drank some alcohol)".
乗るなら is the conditional of " your intention". This sentence directs something before you act(= drive a car)

Useful expression ( probably)

～したらどうですか＝ How about if ～/why don't you ～
もう少し早い電車で行ったら、どうですか?
How about if we/I/you take( took?) the earier train to get there? (?)
そのホテルで２泊したら、どうですか?
How about if I/we/you stay( stayed?) two nights at that hotel? (?)
帰りを飛行機ではなく、夜行バスにしたらどうですか？
How about if I/we/you take ( took?) the midnight bus instead of the flight as a return trip? (?)