There has been a lot of discussion on this city already. A lot of things are figured out already, but the precise location is still up for discussion.

Architecture: Redguard
Size: 30-40 buildings.
Economy: Trade

Notes:

The city was founded by Redguard "merchant captains", though likely on the site of a Reachman settlement

It is located on a border, even when a lot of the the Reach was under Crown control, it was still the border between Hammerfell proper and the Reach

It has a long history of trading, it was probably a city-state like Elinhir and Karthwasten before the war

The city is divided into Dragonstar East and Dragonstar West and has been so for ~20-30 years. A wall has been built in the city, dividing it in two. This wall could be manned by an Imperial Legion peacekeeping force.

Currently the site of an underground resistance war lead through acts of terror and murder, very intense mood

[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/P3cyLuU.jpg[/hsimg]
My version of the location of the city.
Areas not separated by a wall, they are separated by the river.
Each district is surrounded by a fortress built in his style.
Areas are connected by a bridge.
In the HR area market around the fountain.

I'm fine with that overall solution and layout. The amount of houses should rather lean towards 30, though and maybe match yetis draft in density. Otherwise we'll have yet another beast to interiorize. I would occupy but not necessarily fill all 4 exterior cells anyway.
Balmora may be a good point of orientation, because it has between 30 and 40 houses and is split in its middle aswell.

I was thinking myself that many of the issues I have with Scamps proposal only exist on a bird view and probably don't come off the same way within the game.

roerich wrote:Completely agree with that. I think the layout could be close to my second picture, with the houses more spaced out between one another. And the walls can be shrunk even more, perhaps.

Definitely don't make the houses even more spaced out between one another. They are already more spaced out than they should be. Also, your town effectively already covers the same space karthwasten does. Karthwasten doesn't cover more than 4 cells (it occupies 6 cells, though), but it still doesn't feel very tight with about 80 houses, some of which are very big and are surrounded by big gardens.

The only way you can reasonably reduce the amount of interiors is by shrinking down the town considerably. Balmora (even if it occupies 4 exterior cells) has nearly all of its houses in the space of a single exterior cell. You should be able to put all of your houses on the surface of at most 2 exterior cells. We should rather try to accomodate to vanilla town dimensions rather than stay on the course of generally overscaling towns and villages. Sorry for saying it as harsh as this.

As I said to roerich in the irc -- you can push the interiors together and make a great deal of them the ruined variants, as per Dragonstar's general story. Which keeps up the density but reduces the number of interiors.

EDIT: I know it's a mockup, but where would the exit on the HF side be?

<roerich> woah it's hot in here
<Lord Berandas> it must be Summer.
<Infragris> #hell is meant as a spam and off topic channel. Doing a great job already

@worsas: OK, I think we misunderstood each other. Not saying the current setup is the way to go, it was literally just copy-pasting three houses all over again and again. The roads are much too wide, I agree. It can be shrinked down, and when property walls etc. are added, I think it could be quite nice. I have no intention of building the city for now, though.

@Luxray: Like in the concept map I posted above. I didn't put any gate pieces yet.

I like the mock-up, though Worsas's pointers about size should be applied. When we begin work on this in earnest, it's worth remembering that we should reuse the Red Quarter interiors cut from Karthwasten here.

I'm reviving this thread with some random "developer notes" of my thoughts, focused mostly on the atmosphere of Dragonstar West. In fact I feel like I have it way more fleshed up, both in conceptualizing sphere and in the construction set, than Dragonstar East, so any thoughts to make nordic half cooler are welcome too.

On Dragonstar: with Dragonstar begins the plateaus of Dragonfields, a woody area stretching between Druadach Highlands and Dragontail Mountains. It can be consider a transistion zone between the two, both geographicaly - it's where the large mesas of Druadachs start to turn into mountainous boulders of Dragontail area - and in practice, as they provide an easy passage through the mountains. Since the earliest days whole tribes of Nedes were crossing back and forth, and it wasn't long until Dragonstar, one of the ancient city-states of the humans, was founded in this area. The state was formed from the communion of many nomad tribes of the area, both valiant and the merchant ones. Those "merchant captains", as they are known today, drove the Reachmen out of the site and build a city of their own here. The citizens are pious in praising Zenithar, and Knights of Iron, an armed wing of his resolution, hold a lodge here.

Residences: I'd like us to have, instead of noble houses, some Daggerfall style "residences" things in Dragonstar West, I mean by that a tenement house with a bunch of separate apartments/rooms rent by various people - we can see stuff like that in every city in Iliac Bay region in Daggerfall and we could go with that pattern being a thing for the cultures of that area (look down at by Nords as a barbaric custom). I think it would play well with the crowded, windy atmosphere of hammerfelic Dragonstar, plus I don't feel the nobles should be of big importance in this city, mercantile to it's core. Nobles would rather tend to get joined into patricians ranks here I believe, or keep out of the city, as we can see per real world's history. It would allow to deal with a vacancy of living place for people turned homeless after the war and the repatriants from the territories anected by Skyrim. Anyway, these residences could follow the naming pattern from TES 2, e.g. "Dragonstar, Backalley residence" or "Dragonstar, Silver Palm residence". Some merchants could rent rooms in their enterprises, too.

"The Way of the Mage": A name and a concept for the tavern by bazaar plaza: The Way of the Mage. A founder of this place (an ex-mage as well, perphaps?) years ago found his market niche and opened a local just next to the guild of mages, where students of the arcane arts could cool their heads with some beverages. To this day the link between the tavern and the guild has been growing stronger, and now the local is a part of the guild's space in practive. To illustrate that MG members can count on a big discount here - mechanics-wise, I think we can make the bartender belong to hidden "Mages guild friend" guild with faction reaction with Mages guild set to 3.

Khajiiti warehouse: a concept for one of the housings by the market plaza. Two Khajiit siblings run there an establishment - they have a warehouse on the floor level and in the basement and a market stand outside. Their sleepings rooms are upstairs. Warehouse's "no questions asked" policy and it's cheap prices for storing stuff make it popular among varying groups of caravaners and merchants. Regarding their own barter, the Khajiits specialize in exotic and imported goods. If you need something uncommon, better head here first - even if the Khajits don't have it themselves, they surely "know a guy who knows a guy". The siblings, just like the majority of Khajiits, don't "hold prejudice" against the Thieves Guild, but I'd rather not have them as members - just remaining in neutral terms, like one professional respecting another. They can sell one a tip how to get in touch with the Guild, though.

Theresa Clothgen: prior to the armistice, she was a gatekeeper at the western gate. I think we can use that character to show the degratation of the city - she could have fallen into poverty, and now she makes ends meet helping in the forge of nearby weapon smith. The master armorer doesn't need her service to be honest, he employs her out of mercy and out of respect - for her past life, and for the Clothgen family, that could be on of the older families of the city, now in disgrace.

Palace in Mourning: when Redguards lost half of the city to Nords, prince of Dragonstar ordered to paper the palace in black, as a sign of mourning of his (her?) people and a vow they won't rest easy until the city is united once again. The palace has been covered in black tapestries ever since, and it became an important symbol for Sogat Dur-Gada insurrectionists.

Burrowing Boenoth: a concept and a backstory for one of many (I think four will do, two for each city) beggars/paupers of the city. A "little advice" topic from the citizens of Dragonstar West would lead PC to him. This Bosmer used to be a finest scout in the ranks of the Crowns, taking a real pride in his unbeatable knowledge of many caves and burrows of Dragonstar region - people used to say he even beat the Reachmen with his skills. The postbellum years weren't easy on him, and he ended on the very bottom of the social ladder eventually; maybe he had been hounding himself for the Nords breaking the siege from the Hammerfell's side, presumably getting there led by Reachmen through the secret mountain paths, as it might had been his duty to guard them? Now, after many years on the street, the man turned quirk, even by Bosmer standards, but his knowledge of the caves of Druadachs and the Dragonstar itself is still unmatched. He can sell some of his knowledge to curious player, under "little secret" topic, and when asked about a specific place, where questgiver sent PC.

edit: Shit! Of course I did it again Mages guild and the tavern are improperly on the screen above, it should be contrary

- As a Crown city, the Yoku gods will be the focus in Dragonstar. I don't want to give any of the Nine Divines much mention here, but there could be modest shrine to Zenithar at the Imperial garrison building for passing merchants to visit.

Pocket Guide to the Empire: First Edition wrote:The Redguards tolerate worship of Arkay, Zenithar and Kynareth because they approximate certain agriculture deities brought over from Yokuda ~ Most of the other Imperial gods are disregarded as tobr'a (useless, thus evil). By far the most popular gods in Hammerfell are Tall Papa, and his children: Hunding, Leki and Ansei.

- Residences in the city should probably match the ones in Karthwasten. It would be weird if both major Redguard cities had such wildly different housing forms. That, and tenement interiors would have to be much larger than what I think is feasible for us to make.

- Is the Mages Guild located in the western or eastern half of the city? It's important to note that traditional Redguards - who the Crowns definitely are - don't like western magic, and I imagine the Mages Guild in the city would be shunned by the rest of the community.

Trayvond wrote:Yes, you don't see many Redguards in the Mages Guild. We don't much like spellcasters in Hammerfell. Wizards steal souls and tamper with minds. If you use magic, you're weak or wicked.

- Even if it is from an official source, I don't like the name Theresa Clothgen. A lot of time has passed since the war ended - 30 years - so we can safely come up with a new gatekeeper character.

- I like your ideas for the beggar character and the Khajiit warehouse brothers. they will be fun to write.

- Is the Mages Guild located in the western or eastern half of the city? It's important to note that traditional Redguards - who the Crowns definitely are - don't like western magic, and I imagine the Mages Guild in the city would be shunned by the rest of the community.

Yeti wrote:- Is the Mages Guild located in the western or eastern half of the city? It's important to note that traditional Redguards - who the Crowns definitely are - don't like western magic, and I imagine the Mages Guild in the city would be shunned by the rest of the community.

It's located near the market, in the eastern half of the city. While the city was previously a Crown city, it was still a border city located directly on a major trade route. I think it's feasible to have several "foreign" institutions and customs affect the city, same with Karthwasten. Especially near the market. The Fighters guild is far more acceptable, so it's located next to the arena and not the market, making it more "integrated" into the city.

I do agree that the MG shouldn't be the most well-liked institution in the Crown half, and it would be an interesting thing to expand upon. The Crown faction (and Sorgat Dur-Gada) should have lowered disposition for MG members and higher for FG members, who took up allegiance to the Crowns during the siege.

Ted wrote:Skyrim like in arena had MG, not Winterhold college?

There are several magic institutions in our timeline. There's the Mage's Guild, the Clever-Men (though they're not an institution, more like a profession), the Ysmir Collective, the secretive Brotherhood of Jhunal, etc. It's important to note that the situation in TES V is very much affected by the Oblivion crisis, and the distrust of magic and its practioners that followed it.

There are several magic institutions in our timeline. There's the Mage's Guild, the Clever-Men, the Ysmir Collective, the Brotherhood of Jhunal, etc. It's important to note that the situation in TES V is very much affected by the Oblivion crisis, and the distrust of magic and its practioners that followed it.

Wow, this is a lot of factions! In my imagination Winterhold college is mine magic faction in province and some small mages guild offices on border and in Imperial forts and cities, so I think the place for Mages Guild of Dragonstar in Redguard part.
Well, I will keep in mind that it is not so simple like I think.

Thank you for your comments, guys. I'm glad you like it... to the extent.

Yeti wrote:- As a Crown city, the Yoku gods will be the focus in Dragonstar. I don't want to give any of the Nine Divines much mention here, but there could be modest shrine to Zenithar at the Imperial garrison building for passing merchants to visit.

I see. But apart from what roerich said about MG's guild presence - justified by "cosmopolitan" character of the city, the character I think could influent the beliefs and customs of the Crowns here as well - I was thinking about something along the lines of what ancient Romans did in their conquered territories, where they kept the local polytheistic gods and sewed them onto their own pantheon. Zenithar would have to be adapted to Yoku culture, but I don't see why they can't honour this spirit under different name along their own gods. Reachmen's Mara is not the same goddes the Imperial one is, nor is Kyne - Kynareth. I'm not insisting here on anything though, it's just a thought.

At any rate, Knight of Iron probably don't fit this city, I agree.

Yeti wrote:- Residences in the city should probably match the ones in Karthwasten. It would be weird if both major Redguard cities had such wildly different housing forms. That, and tenement interiors would have to be much larger than what I think is feasible for us to make.

I don't really know about the size thing - I think RG tileset is perfect for apartment style buildings and it would allow us to achieve some cool results with current size of houses - but regarding the other thing, on the outside the houses already look quite different in Dragonstar than they do in Karthwasten (no gardens, no alleys... but much more stairs, slopes, and doorways in every house), because the city's outline and the enviroment is quite different. Having no residences (as in Karthwasten; damn, I caused some naming confusion with my proposal ) at all as I originally proposed might be an overkill, but to me having no tenements of some kind and only the residences (again, KW style) would be much weirder.

Yeti wrote:- Is the Mages Guild located in the western or eastern half of the city? It's important to note that traditional Redguards - who the Crowns definitely are - don't like western magic, and I imagine the Mages Guild in the city would be shunned by the rest of the community.

roerich wrote:I do agree that the MG shouldn't be the most well-liked institution in the Crown half, and it would be an interesting thing to expand upon. The Crown faction (and Sorgat Dur-Gada) should have lowered disposition for MG members and higher for FG members, who took up allegiance to the Crowns during the siege.

Frankly, I just had the idea when I started to make the walkway between the guild and the tavern, and I thought "The Way of Mage" would make a cool name for the place. I have no problems at all with not using this concept.

Yeti wrote:- Even if it is from an official source, I don't like the name Theresa Clothgen. A lot of time has passed since the war ended - 30 years - so we can safely come up with a new gatekeeper character.

I don't really care about a gatekeeper, as an institution, in fact I think we shouldn't have one here, because no other city had someone like that. I just wanted to fit her in in this new reality, because it'd be cool to have some Shadowkey character, I think. I don't have a problem with Clothgen's name, but I have no problem with not using this character at all. It wouldn't be a big deal to write out another pauper for this house.

So, what's actually the deal with the name of this town? Why is it called Dragonstar and why does it have an imperial name, if it used to be a redguard settlement? Who built the dragon statue and why? What does the statue actually represent?

I think Dragonstar is one of those cities that was almost always independent in some way. A city-state with changing affiliations to the surrounding provinces of High Rock, Hammerfell and Skyrim. Could help to explain the name being in English/Common Tamrielic, it being not overly culturally Crown, Nord etc. Elinhir and Jehenna is also half-independent city-states like that. Prior to the War of Bend'r Mahk, the Crowns had consolidated their power in the region, suspending some of the city's independency laws if favor of more strict control in the area.

Possible origins for the name:

- The Dragontail Mountains ends right west of the city, past the Dragonfields. If the mountains are the tail of the dragon, Dragonstar is the eye or star.
- Site of a possible meteorite crash (a fire/dragon star), with all the mythopoeic and religious associations.
- Ancient Dragon-worshipping Nords founded the city
- A really popular dragon used to live here.

roerich wrote:I think Dragonstar is one of those cities that was almost always independent in some way. A city-state with changing affiliations to the surrounding provinces of High Rock, Hammerfell and Skyrim. Could help to explain the name being in English/Common Tamrielic, it being not overly culturally Crown, Nord etc. Elinhir and Jehenna is also half-independent city-states like that. Prior to the War of Bend'r Mahk, the Crowns had consolidated their power in the region, suspending some of the city's independency laws if favor of more strict control in the area.

That sounds great. To expand this, maybe the sheer shock of the city fall in Bend'r Mahk was an impulse radicalizing people and strenghtening the Crown identity? Think how the partitions of the Commonwealth stimulated Polish ethnos in Silesia, Pomerania and Prussia, for instance.

roerich wrote:- The Dragontail Mountains ends right west of the city, past the Dragonfields. If the mountains are the tail of the dragon, Dragonstar is the eye or star.

I so want to see a mural representing it With winding gray wyrm tail of Dragontail Mountains, and green upper body of Dragonfiels forest... Great picture.

"Dragons" might be the nickname for Merchant Captains, too.

worsas wrote:How about this for a dragon statue:

Two dragonheads facing in opposite direction, between them an uprising dragontail wrapping around a mini representation of the town.

That works for me, sounds neat. I think we can really do without the statue, especially since they are assets so hard to make, but if we get one, that's a great vision.

As promised, here are some ideas I had for Dragonstar miscellaneous quests:

Ruma and Julio

A tragic love story in divided city. Ruma is a Nord orphan from a noble family of Skyrim, raised among the courtiers of Jana's court, and Julio's father is a influential clothier in Dragonstar West. Both custiodans are obviously against this relationship, and that's where the player comes into play. It would be possible to learn about the lovers asking about the latest rumours around the town, or just directly from themselves. They are saying they just want to be together and try to find their happines someplace else, but they need money for that. The player can either promise to try to convince their custodians to give them their blessings and needed funds (in the sum of 3 thousand drakes?) or just provide the money himself. Both ways would result in finishing the quest. Convincing Jona: jarla would be fine with her courtier departing her as long as the player got already done some quests done in service to either her, the king or Skyrim. If that hasn't happened yet, she'd send PC to her huscarl, who will task player with clearing a nearby cave from bandits.Convincing Julio's father: he's a good father, albeit a strict one. He doesn't care that much about Ruma's origin and he wants his boy to be happy, but more importantly, being typical head of Redguard family, he cares for well-being of his household first. He is concerned - and not without a reason - his fellow merchant-captains wouldn't be very enthusiastic about such mésalliance in their ranks and his business will suffer in result. Player would have to convince all of them (that is, every non-Reachman service NPC in West Dragonstar) to accept this relationship in order for father to bestow his blessing upon these amorous turtledoves.
After this quest is finished, the lovers would disappear from the city. Sometimes later, a rumour will be heard on the streets they opened up a small shop in Wayrest and are living a happy life together. These rumours not only reached a player, but a traveling priest/living saint of Dibella as well that appeared in a city. For their selfless action in service of love, she'll cast a blessing on PC, resulting in gaining a new pernament ability (a Speechcraft boost?).

There should be some paraphrased quotes from Shakespeare's drama used for dialogues in this quest, of course, as an easter egg.

Warrior's will

A rumour can be heard on the streets of West Dragonstar: Yorvonna, a wide-respected fechtmeister, Crown patriot, and member of now-disbanded Dragonstar Fighter's Guild, recently passed away from old age, leaving his wife in mourning. Player is told it would be an honourable thing to do to stop by his house and pay poor widow some respects, even if PC is new to the city and never met Yorvonna. If he/she decides to do it, the widow will thank for condolences, politely noticing though player's face is new to her and asking where does player know her late husband from. Hearing that PC is in fact a random adventurer, uninvolved in any affairs in the city, she'll offer him/her a mission. As it turns out, her husband left his last will. He left some personal souvenirs he'd like to have given to his comrades from old times, members of former Dragonstar chapter of Fighters Guild. The problem is, with guild disbanded for over three decades now, all these people are most likely long-gone from Dragonstar. That's why the lady is in need of a freelancing adventurer to find them, and fulfill the wish of her dead love. She'd like player to swear on the wrath of Tall Papa (PC will be able to ask who Tall Papa is first, thus gaining some insight into Yoku religion) he/she will do everything possible to find these people, or at least their descendants or families, as the case might be. If player accepted this quest, he/she'll be given a key to a chest with Yorvonna's last will written down, as well as the items he wanted to have distribiuted to his old friends (some small memorabilia, personal items of little monetary value). Some proposals about these friends:

life wasn't easy on one of them. Some years after the plunder of the city, he ended as a beggar on the streets of Dragonstar. He still can be found somewhere along the ruins.

another one is now working as a palace guard for one of Karthwasten aristocrats

another one settled down somewhere in Aldkarth/Midkarth. He/she's been dead for few years now, but the family still lives on that farm

someone else can be a criminal, pretty lame one actually, currently "residing" in Markarth's dungeon. Player can leave the item with his wife, a forbearing strong woman, always tolerating her husband's excursions, that lives in a house in docks.

one of them might have joined Sogat Dur Gada, never coming to the terms with the Reach partition by Nords, and is to be encountered in one of their bases...

...and another one, torn as well after the fall of the city, sought his/her peace in seclusion. He or she can be found living simple life in a hut/tent, somewhere in the wilderness, or living with savage Orcs/Reachmen.

The first step to find these people would be asking on the streets, but no one will know anything precise. Player is rather expected to hear things like "I heard he moved somewhere north, to Solitude or Markarth maybe. If I were you, I'd try there first." and so on. After all of this is done, the widow will reward player with an enchanted blade of her late husband.

Catching fliers

An owner of Shadowkey Tavern, prosperous well reputated inn in East Dragonstar recently hired some folks to make some advertising leaflets. The problem is, few spelling and grammar errors crept in during printing process, and now the inn is likely to become a laughinstock! Inn's landlord contacted printer and demanded to cease distributing these faulty fliers, but the first batch (10-20 leaflets) has been distributed already. Player is supposed to go 'egg-hunting' in the city and find all of these leaflets, for a monetary reward, as well as a free room to sleep in the inn.

No bread from no flour

The simplest of fetch quest, a chore for low level PCs really. A baker in West Dragonstar ran out of flour, and tasks player to catch some from a miller across the street, as he's too busy to go there himself. A reward for this epic endeavour: 50 Septims and a friendship of a baker.

Steady in the shadows

Even though it's been over 3 decades now since an open military conflict in the city, there's still an internal tension perceptible in the air, a hidden boiling noticeable under the surface. Jona's been throwing herself forth and back these years, trying to prevent her large conquered dominion from submiting to chaos, but lots of this chaos was spared to West Dragonstar - most of the revolutionary groups (with the exception of the most hardcore ones; "the prince is weak and only we are the true Crowns, he's as evil as Nords") collectively known as "Sogat dur Gada" are in league with the authorities of West Dragonstar in fact. While the lands of East Dragonstar county slowly fell into disrepair, West Dragonstar forces were becoming stronger [I tried to portray that in DS claim, with East Dragonstar looking slightly more run-down; except for military outposts and merchants, there are few to none points of interest there as well], lustfully snarling in the shadows, preparing to attack Skyrim to reclaim what's theirs.
For the time being, they are still too weak to risk an open conflict, especially since it's the Emperor's authority that backs up the truce, but the prince (just like any ruler belonging to cultural circle of Iliac Bay) has his spies everywhere. He's aware not only about the problems the Reach hold is facing, but more importanly about the unrests in Imperial City. The time's almost up, and the Crowns will be ready.
To that end, a player that's proven their loyalty to the Crowns [completing roerich's undead quests for merchant-captains, maybe?], will be told by Crown guards that Por-Lis - a personal protector of the court and prince's right arm (an arm wearing war gauntlet, apparently) - wants to talk with him/her. The Argonian will ask PC to infiltrate Castle Dragonstar, and once inside:

find a key unlocking secret passages to the Castle. Jarla's huscarl supposedly has it hidden somewhere in his (well-guarded) room.

find all these three secret passages and make sure they are passable (raising any grates blocking the entrance, unlocking doors, killing monsters... and so on).

The mission is as secret as it can be, of course, so discrecy is required. It will be hinted between the words that this mission doesn't exist formally, and PC has no connections to the princely court - if he/she fails, the Crowns will be able to deny everything, so PC shouldn't even think about framing Redguards. For his/her efforts, PC will be rewarded with few thousands of drakes.

Yeah, I agree about the baker's task, I was thinking about it too, but I thought a lower reward would be degrading, both for PC, and more importantly a modder (to spend hours meddling with it in CS, for naught but 5 drakes of a reward...? ) How about something like this, actually:

The baker received large sudden order from important client (maybe princely palace's kitchen, hosting a large feast?) and his apprentices are indisposed for some reason, so he desperatly needs an extra-paid help in getting everything done on time. He wants to hire PC for whole day, paying him much more than can be expected. Once PC is back with needed flour and when they report back for duty, a script would trigger, popping a messagebox ("You work hard all day blah blah"), blackening the screen and moving gamehour 10 or so values forward.

berry wrote:Once PC is back with needed flour and when they report back for duty, a script would trigger, popping a messagebox ("You work hard all day blah blah"), blackening the screen and moving gamehour 10 or so values forward.