Hikohadon wrote:And I'm not going to go on about how quickly what's happening in Boston will be forgotten outside of Boston since the last thing anyone wants to do is publicly present a non-properly-horrified image.

Oh fugoff with your "non properly horrified image" shit.

No one said a GD thing abut horrified. You go ahead with that immeasurable, speculative defense to support your paper thin position.

The bottom line is that two fucking kids, apparently Muslim, have shut down the entire fucking East Coast with their crude devices and lack of foresight and organization.

Radicalized here, there, nowhere? Who gives a shit?

Whether there's justification for the shut down or not, just turn on your fucking TV. No one's making it up or dramatizing it. I'm not making it up. Boston's closed.

For whatever reason. The fact it's closed and the reaction created by all of this is probably going to have people looking sideways at the next pair of Muslims or arabic speaking dudes on a plane an hour after the next attack.

I was curious so I had to Wiki it. Kyrgyz is the state language of Kyrgyzstan, but Russian is still the "official" language. Pakistan's official languages are listed as English and Urdu, but the provinces all have their own tribal languages.

Apparently, bride kidnapping is still a popular tradition in Kyrgyzstan. Saves money on the ring I guess.....

Chechen language was historically a writing system close to Arabic. Most Chechens are bilingual in both Chechen and Arabic (they are Muslim after all) and Chechen shares common characteristics with the Arabic language.

"There is but one thing of real value: to cultivate truth and justice and to live without anger in the midst of lying and unjust men"

Hikohadon wrote:And I'm not going to go on about how quickly what's happening in Boston will be forgotten outside of Boston since the last thing anyone wants to do is publicly present a non-properly-horrified image.

Oh fugoff with your "non properly horrified image" shit.

No one said a GD thing abut horrified. You go ahead with that immeasurable, speculative defense to support your paper thin position.

The bottom line is that two fucking kids, apparently Muslim, have shut down the entire fucking East Coast with their crude devices and lack of foresight and organization.

Radicalized here, there, nowhere? Who gives a shit?

Whether there's justification for the shut down or not, just turn on your fucking TV. No one's making it up or dramatizing it. I'm not making it up. Boston's closed.

For whatever reason. The fact it's closed and the reaction created by all of this is probably going to have people looking sideways at the next pair of Muslims or arabic speaking dudes on a plane an hour after the next attack.

We've exhausted this conversation. I know you want me to realize how life-changing this event is, and it just isn't for me. This changes nothing for me in the way I approach life or do anything. If I were in Boston, I'm sure that would be different, but I'm not. I'm not more worried about going anywhere or doing anything today than I was a week ago.

AFAIC, these are a couple of brothers that randomly killed some people for whatever reason and then went on a desperate getaway attempt. It's not like this has never happened before. I'm not trying to belittle what happened and I feel badly for the families of those that were tragically murdered, but people are tragically murdered all the time.

If this changes your life in some fundamental way, so be it. I think you'd be in the minority, but I could be wrong. But arguing about it anymore is useless since it doesn't really make a difference to me.

PS - of course people will look sideways at people speaking Arabic on planes today. Some people will look sideways at people speaking Arabic on planes every day. People are gonna feel the way they feel. Which doesn't at all change the initial point that THEY'RE the ones that should leave the flight then since THEY'RE the ones with the problem.

Last edited by Hikohadon on Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hikohadon wrote:And I'm not going to go on about how quickly what's happening in Boston will be forgotten outside of Boston since the last thing anyone wants to do is publicly present a non-properly-horrified image.

Oh fugoff with your "non properly horrified image" shit.

No one said a GD thing abut horrified. You go ahead with that immeasurable, speculative defense to support your paper thin position.

The bottom line is that two fucking kids, apparently Muslim, have shut down the entire fucking East Coast with their crude devices and lack of foresight and organization.

Radicalized here, there, nowhere? Who gives a shit?

Whether there's justification for the shut down or not, just turn on your fucking TV. No one's making it up or dramatizing it. I'm not making it up. Boston's closed.

For whatever reason. The fact it's closed and the reaction created by all of this is probably going to have people looking sideways at the next pair of Muslims or arabic speaking dudes on a plane an hour after the next attack.

We've exhausted this conversation. I know you want me to realize how life-changing this event is, and it just isn't for me. This changes nothing for me in the way I approach life or do anything. If I were in Boston, I'm sure that would be different, but I'm not. I'm not more worried about going anywhere or doing anything today than I was a week ago.

AFAIC, these are a couple of brothers that randomly killed some people for whatever reason and then went on a desperate getaway attempt. It's not like this has never happened before. I'm not trying to belittle what happened and I feel badly for the families of those that were tragically murdered, but people are tragically murdered all the time.

If this changes your life in some fundamental way, so be it. I think you'd be in the minority, but I could be wrong. But arguing about it anymore is useless since it doesn't really make a difference to me.

It doesn't affect me personally, per se. Not in a 'looking over my shoulder' kind of way. But it affects us all in terms of societal effects. Increased security measures at sporting venues, airports, road races. And it may embolden whack jobs everywhere to see they can financially affect major markets with a crock pot and carpenter nails.

I think to say it doesn't affect me, you or anyone else in some degree is incorrect. And it also affects how a large number of people, educated or otherwise, view the Muslim population in the country.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it truly is simply a provincial phenomena based on proximity to the event.

peeker643 wrote:It doesn't affect me personally, per se. Not in a 'looking over my shoulder' kind of way. But it affects us all in terms of societal effects. Increased security measures at sporting venues, airports, road races. And it may embolden whack jobs everywhere to see they can financially affect major markets with a crock pot and carpenter nails.

I think to say it doesn't affect me, you or anyone else in some degree is incorrect. And it also affects how a large number of people, educated or otherwise, view the Muslim population in the country.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it truly is simply a provincial phenomena based on proximity to the event.

I'd hope to God that they were already using maximum security precautions at sport venues, airports, road races prior to this event. If 9/11 wasn't a wakeup call enough, then they should be repeatedly kicked in the balls until dead.

As far as how the Muslim population is viewed, what this will do is enable and deepen the fear and mistrust of people that were already predisposed to do so, and will probably be viewed as the acts of whackjobs working alone that just happened to be Muslim by the others. If these guys had happened to be gay and set the bombs off because of some personal hatred of heterosexuals, you'd see much the same conversation between people that already don't like gays and those that don't have an issue.

If there were some way to control how people feel, then 3/4 of world would have a mental enema (assuming I'm in control). There ain't. What you can at least try to control is not letting how individual people feel affect the execution of your policies/laws.

That's all my original point was about - you can sympathize/not sympathize with how individuals feel, but that shouldn't affect how the airlines adhere to their policies. If you're in a position where your job is to enforce laws/policies (such as a cop or an airline marshal), then you should do your damn job no matter if you personally feel the same way the passengers do.

I gotta say, as bad as the journalism has been (with some notable exceptions) through all this, the work of law enforcement has been exemplary. I am amazed at how fast the system worked to identify these guys out of a crowd of hundreds of thousands, and then zeroed in on them, all in a couple of days.

Thanks for the job you do.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

danwismar wrote:Good to hear from you, Al. You've been on my mind through all this.

I gotta say, as bad as the journalism has been (with some notable exceptions) through all this, the work of law enforcement has been exemplary. I am amazed at how fast the system worked to identify these guys out of a crowd of hundreds of thousands, and then zeroed in on them, all in a couple of days.

I gotta say, as bad as the journalism has been (with some notable exceptions) through all this, the work of law enforcement has been exemplary. I am amazed at how fast the system worked to identify these guys out of a crowd of hundreds of thousands, and then zeroed in on them, all in a couple of days.

Thanks for the job you do.

I agree. America's response to these kinds of disasters (invasion and destructive war in foreign nations excepted) is always swift, robust and unwavering: like the strike of a hammer.The USA is no joke when it's fucked with. The only country I would be less inclined to piss off is Israel.

"There is but one thing of real value: to cultivate truth and justice and to live without anger in the midst of lying and unjust men"

British_Pharaoh wrote:Until we hear a plausible motive then I am going to remain sceptical and wary of what we presently "know". So far nothing about this makes any sense.

Denial - not just a river in Egypt

You are not influenced by the disclosure of the older brother's YouTube page, with the videos of the radical Muslim cleric urging Muslims to "kill the enemies of Islam"?...among other exhortations to jihad and martyrdom in the name of Allah?

Or interviews with friends and family talking about how the older brother at least, was "very religious", which in Islam means that he takes the Koranic imperative to jihad against the non-believers seriously?

These are not "plausible motives" in your mind, sir?

---

For me, the now well-documented presence of the Craft security personnel is less troubling (now) than the media's refusal to even discuss it. What it says to me is that there may have been at the very least, some advance knowledge...chatter...or whatever...that something was up. If so, we deserve to know it, and the media should be all over it. But it's early.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

British_Pharaoh wrote:Until we hear a plausible motive then I am going to remain sceptical and wary of what we presently "know". So far nothing about this makes any sense.

So what happens if Knucklehead #2 is killed and a large part of this dies with him?

The government will dictate the motive as they see fit. They will have to assess what course of action and explanation will provide the best pretext to pursue its interests and manufacture consent from the public for carte blanche on whoever.

But maybe I'm putting too much emphasis on previous US government protocol. It will be difficult to argue anything other than two pious Muslims acting independently against "a decadent, imperialist civilisation of the West."

"There is but one thing of real value: to cultivate truth and justice and to live without anger in the midst of lying and unjust men"

British_Pharaoh wrote:Until we hear a plausible motive then I am going to remain sceptical and wary of what we presently "know". So far nothing about this makes any sense.

So what happens if Knucklehead #2 is killed and a large part of this dies with him?

The government will dictate the motive as they see fit. They will have to assess what course of action and explanation will provide the best pretext to pursue its interests and manufacture consent from the public for carte blanche on whoever.

But maybe I'm putting too much emphasis on previous US government protocol. It will be difficult to argue anything other than two pious Muslims acting independently against "a decadent, imperialist civilisation of the West."

While another group tees up the 'patsy', 'fall guy' and 'conspiracy' missives?

I don't think you're putting too much emphasis on previous administrations' protocol. I think all governments are pretty much self-serving when it's convenient for them to be.

That's why I'm hoping to see the kid brought in alive. Although the message will still be shaped by both the government and the conspiracy theorists, it will be less so if the kid can speak and tell his story.

That will save some arguing and having to defend indefensible positions for many.

British_Pharaoh wrote:Until we hear a plausible motive then I am going to remain sceptical and wary of what we presently "know". So far nothing about this makes any sense.

Denial - not just a river in Egypt

You are not influenced by the disclosure of the older brother's YouTube page, with the videos of the radical Muslim cleric urging Muslims to "kill the enemies of Islam"?...among other exhortations to jihad and martyrdom in the name of Allah?

Or interviews with friends and family talking about how the older brother at least, was "very religious", which in Islam means that he takes the Koranic imperative to jihad against the non-believers seriously?

These are not "plausible motives" in your mind, sir?

---

For me, the now well-documented presence of the Craft security personnel is less troubling (now) than the media's refusal to even discuss it. What it says to me is that there may have been at the very least, some advance knowledge...chatter...or whatever...that something was up. If so, we deserve to know it, and the media should be all over it. But it's early.

Thank God you are not involved in the judicial realm of the nation. The fact that the older brother was "very religious" does not mean the attack was carried out in the name of Allah. The two boys have likely been deeply religious their entire lives given their places of birth and heritage but have lived in America for 10 years. Why should they choose to carry out this attack now? Both men had future aspirations: one to represent the USA in the Olympics as a boxer, the other to be a neurosurgeon (apparently)Which again begs the question as to why? and why now?

What you said is the most likely conclusion that we can draw at the moment, since the most we know about these two men relates in some way to their religion. And it is the best possible motive on offer. But there are too many questions marks to close the book just yet.In my opinion.

"There is but one thing of real value: to cultivate truth and justice and to live without anger in the midst of lying and unjust men"

British_Pharaoh wrote:...it is the best possible motive on offer. But there are too many questions marks to close the book just yet.

No one said the book is closed yet. I said exactly the opposite. My point was that there is indeed a "plausible motive". And I see you agree.

But we do have little clues about the possible radicalization of the elder brother at least. Like his YouTube songlist he prepared, which included a little ditty called "I will dedicate my life to jihad". Apparently he was unable to locate one called "I will dedicate my life to the Olympic boxing team".

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

British_Pharaoh wrote: The fact that the older brother was "very religious" does not mean the attack was carried out in the name of Allah.

No...but it's quite plausible.

What I find amazing and maddening at the same time is that some people (not you BP) will not term this act "terrorist" in nature unless and until they are able to determine the reason for it...the motive behind it. I would ask what possible motive for this act would disqualify it from being justifiably called terrorism?

Even if they were doing it at someone else's behest...say, whomever the elder brother visited with in Russia last year....

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

British_Pharaoh wrote:It's the most likely (only because we know Chechens are Muslim and Muslim has become synonymous with terrorist), but given other information that has been reported, it is not plausible, yet.

"Muslim has become synonymous with terrorist" only when folks like you put words into other people's mouths.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

British_Pharaoh wrote:It's the most likely (only because we know Chechens are Muslim and Muslim has become synonymous with terrorist), but given other information that has been reported, it is not plausible, yet.

"Muslim has become synonymous with terrorist" only when folks like you put words into other people's mouths.

I was speaking in a general sense, not making reference to you.

"There is but one thing of real value: to cultivate truth and justice and to live without anger in the midst of lying and unjust men"

British_Pharaoh wrote: The fact that the older brother was "very religious" does not mean the attack was carried out in the name of Allah.

No...but it's quite plausible.

What I find amazing and maddening at the same time is that some people (not you BP) will not term this act "terrorist" in nature unless and until they are able to determine the reason for it...the motive behind it. I would ask what possible motive for this act would disqualify it from being justifiably called terrorism?

I agree

Even if they were doing it at someone else's behest...say, whomever the elder brother visited with in Russia last year....

Hmm, or maybe he was just visiting his family.

"There is but one thing of real value: to cultivate truth and justice and to live without anger in the midst of lying and unjust men"

You look at his twitter https://twitter.com/J_tsar (still yet to be verified) and it looks like any ordinary student's social media account. Nothing to suggest he could be capable of death and destruction. It's quite harrowing when you are reminded that you really never can 'know' anyone. And that these 'terrorists' are well, people. People like you and me have the potential to be murderers on a large scale.

"There is but one thing of real value: to cultivate truth and justice and to live without anger in the midst of lying and unjust men"

British_Pharaoh wrote: People like you and me have the potential to be murderers on a large scale.

Yes. Yes we do.

FWIW, my working theory is that big brother was radicalized...by Internet video or more directly...and then persuaded little brother to join him in the cause. Either that...or my head is up my ass, and it's something entirely fucking different.

Pretty sure it's one or the other.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

British_Pharaoh wrote: People like you and me have the potential to be murderers on a large scale.

Yes. Yes we do.

FWIW, my working theory is that big brother was radicalized...by Internet video or more directly...and then persuaded little brother to join him in the cause. Either that...or my head is up my ass, and it's something entirely fucking different.

Pretty sure it's one or the other.

My guess is we'll never know for sure, because i think it's unlikely that this kid ends up coming in alive, but I think your first theory is the most likely we have to work with right now. At least until some new information comes along it fits with what we know so far.

Doesn't mean your head's not up your ass. Those are completely separate issues.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:GTFO you government stooge. You're probably in league with the lizard people. Yeah, boy, I got you pegged..... the Illuminati's number one lap dog. You Zionist Sheep Shill Agent of the NWO.

Fuck you.

"There is but one thing of real value: to cultivate truth and justice and to live without anger in the midst of lying and unjust men"