tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post115809637736977495..comments2015-03-03T13:23:51.829+00:00Comments on separated by a common language: die and dicelynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-30424022267730156202014-12-21T13:31:35.639+00:002014-12-21T13:31:35.639+00:00I hadn&#39;t made the connection with pence before...I hadn&#39;t made the connection with <i>pence</i> before, but it does make a lot of sense.<br /><br />I believe you can call a coin a <i>penny</i> even though the name belongs to a foreign currency. Before 1971 we had just the one coin called a penny, and the plural was <b><i>pennies</i></b>. That coined was abolished and replaced by something that was round and brown but otherwise bore no resemblance to an old penny. The old 1d was worth a 240th of a pound, the new 1p is a <i>cent</i> by another name. <br /><br />But <i>a penny</i> was also the <b>value</b> of a penny coin. If that value was more then 1, we use not the plural <i>pennies</i> but the collective <i><b>pence</b></i>.<br /><br />For many in my generation, and for others influence by the way we speak, the word <i>penny</i> has disappeared (except for old coins) in exactly the same way that <i>die</i> just don&#39;t belong in the lexicon. We say <i>one pee</i> or — and this is a precise analogy to <i>once dice</i> — <i><b>one pence</b></i>.David Crosbiehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-72812524967619253882014-12-21T02:03:47.290+00:002014-12-21T02:03:47.290+00:00Hooray! The OED agrees with me:
QUOTE
As in pence...Hooray! The OED agrees with me:<br /><br />QUOTE<br />As in <i>pence</i>, the plural <i>s</i> retains its original breath sound, probably because these words were not felt as ordinary plurals, but as collective words; compare the original plural <i>truce</i>, where the collective sense has now passed into a singular. This pronunciation is indicated in later spelling by -<i>ce</i><br />UNQUOTEDavid Crosbiehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-33840522047649190832014-12-21T01:53:27.338+00:002014-12-21T01:53:27.338+00:00I&#39;m amazed to read that some British speakers ...I&#39;m amazed to read that some British speakers say <i>die</i>. I don&#39;t remember ever hearing the it spoken by a Brit — except when discussing the <b>word </b> as opposed to the thing. <br /><br />Yes, we say <i>The die is cast</i>, but how many of us realise that it refers to dice? I had no idea until I learnt as a schoolboy about Caesar&#39;s words in Latin, and the way they are translated into English. A odd translation, since we never speak of <i><b>casting</b> dice</i>. And an odd metaphor for our culture, since we don&#39;t think of a throw as <b>irreversible</b>. The way we use dice in games it would just never occur to us to say <i>&#39;Can I have that throw again?&#39;</i>.<br /><br />And surely <i>dice</i> is a <b>collective</b> — a bit like <i>cattle</i> — rather than a plural. It&#39;s a total violation of the way English plurals sound. If the final sound of the singular form is a vowel, then the plural form <b>must</b> end in a Z-sound.David Crosbiehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-89616514770909784332014-12-20T17:57:01.345+00:002014-12-20T17:57:01.345+00:00Since we seem short on Americans here, I&#39;ll ch...Since we seem short on Americans here, I&#39;ll chime in to note that everyone I&#39;ve gamed with here cringes and mutters each and every single time we read &quot;roll a dice&quot; in an English rulebook. Being wrong for over 600 years doesn&#39;t make you less wrong! Colonists are supposed to be the ones breaking the language. I&#39;ve never heard an American use &quot;dice&quot; as singular.VDorrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-6870107230467513072014-10-26T01:52:37.272+00:002014-10-26T01:52:37.272+00:00Oddly enough, I&#39;ve recently seen several insta...Oddly enough, I&#39;ve recently seen several instances of the phrase &quot;the die were cast.&quot; I.e., instead of dice being used in the singular, die is being used in the plural! The most recent example of this is in the very new book &quot;The Godless&quot; by Ben Peek. After seeing it there, I did a search on the internet and found several other examples of this usage.SimonEllbergerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01152678374147671883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-12332897103734568342014-04-01T05:57:21.848+01:002014-04-01T05:57:21.848+01:00I&#39;m not entirely familiar with &quot;hie&quot;...I&#39;m not entirely familiar with &quot;hie&quot; so I looked it up to clarify, and your use of it (&quot;...which I hie to the recycling while wrinkling my nose&quot;) seems to be missing a preposition.<br /><br />Based on the sources I looked at I would only use hie in that fashion in reference to an animal or possibly to machine I wished to personify.<br /><br />I do find interesting the similarity in meaning and sound of hie and hightail, given they have entirely different origins.<br /><br /><br />P.S. Wrinkling your nose in disgust? That seems a bit harsh, unless some athletic star was captured in illicit debauchery.Albert Welchhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02138260302522477243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-20491790744338179092013-07-27T12:56:48.816+01:002013-07-27T12:56:48.816+01:00I spent a substantial part of my life as a die
-si...I spent a substantial part of my life as a die<br />-sinker ( in England may I add ). And, somewhat confusingly, always produced a pair of dies! .... BR. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-91864660538306465102012-09-02T10:27:35.169+01:002012-09-02T10:27:35.169+01:00One thing that strikes me in the sentence you quot...One thing that strikes me in the sentence you quote, more than the die-versus-dice issue, is the troubling use of &quot;eponymous&quot;. Since the main character in The Dice Man is called Luke Rhinehart, how can he be called eponymous in any way?Code crumbshttp://pit-claudel.fr/clement/blog/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-43956477642831361322011-04-30T06:04:57.885+01:002011-04-30T06:04:57.885+01:00I grew up using &#39;die&#39; as the singular for ...I grew up using &#39;die&#39; as the singular for &#39;dice&#39; (speaking a mish-mash of BrE and CanE). But for &#39;the die is cast&#39; I always thought that the &#39;die&#39; in question was the metal kind one uses to cut things, so if the die is cast (in metal) one can&#39;t change the shape of what it&#39;s going to make...I suppose I must have been mistaken.ellahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13036209994244477176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-70838543472043410752011-03-24T12:30:38.731+00:002011-03-24T12:30:38.731+00:00I&#39;d never heard of &quot;die&quot; until I pla...I&#39;d never heard of &quot;die&quot; until I played a game with American friends as a child... but then some very proper English gentleman with good (BrE!) public school educations assured me it was &quot;die&quot;, so I&#39;m not sure!clairehttp://www.brusselsclaire.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-63812745024761255442010-09-22T15:45:22.843+01:002010-09-22T15:45:22.843+01:00It&#39;s been said that the plural of spouse is sp...It&#39;s been said that the plural of <i>spouse</i> is <i>spice</i>, though I suspect the experience of actual polygamists doesn&#39;t really bear this out.John Cowanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-34251520095842785492009-01-17T19:04:00.000+00:002009-01-17T19:04:00.000+00:00Hi! I came across this great explanation when I j...Hi! I came across this great explanation when I joked with My Own BH that the plural of lie must then be lice. (She was not amused.)<BR/>So, are there any other plurals that take the "-ce" ending? Except for leading me here, El Goog has been unhelpful.LCDR Dennishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07623191948584500698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-67474815728327084502008-06-11T09:14:00.000+01:002008-06-11T09:14:00.000+01:00Just a thought, but from what I can remember, Rhin...Just a thought, but from what I can remember, Rhinehart's character in The Dice Man uses two dice to make his decisions for most of the book.<BR/><BR/>Okay, so the commenter in the Grauniad wrote 'rolling a dice' not 'rolling dice', but I thought it worth mentioning.<BR/><BR/>Apologies for commenting on such an old post. I've only recently discovered the site and I've been traipsing through the archives during this last week to soothe the pedantic monster that slumbers within.<BR/><BR/>Keep up the good work.<BR/><BR/>JJameshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03644239263530758465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-47402537937249198652008-02-11T02:29:00.000+00:002008-02-11T02:29:00.000+00:00I first discovered that "die" is the singular of "...I first discovered that "die" is the singular of "dice" when I studied probability theory at university. Using "dice" as a singular noun just sounds so wrong. People who study probability theory typically go on to become statisticians and then learn that "datum" is the singular to "data." But even fewer people know this and often use "data" for both singular and plural and it<BR/>has become common usage (at least in the US).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-21676686090034165522007-02-11T12:58:00.000+00:002007-02-11T12:58:00.000+00:00No schooling necessary for commenting. You just n...No schooling necessary for commenting. You just need to speak a language!lynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-47869329227303749902007-02-09T05:03:00.000+00:002007-02-09T05:03:00.000+00:00I'm an American ex-pat living in Oz now, and have ...I'm an American ex-pat living in Oz now, and have just recently joined a role-playing organisation here. We are all much more comfortable with the singular die. I've been enjoying reading this blog for months now, but I must admit I'm afeared of not having enough schooling to post a comment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-43235931738012284702007-01-02T23:11:00.000+00:002007-01-02T23:11:00.000+00:00The full Bierce entry combines all of these confus...The full Bierce entry combines all of these confusions into a single compact source:<br /><br />DIE, n.<br /><br />The singular of "dice." We seldom hear the word, because there is a prohibitory proverb, "Never say die." At long intervals, however, some one says: "The die is cast," which is not true, for it is cut. The word is found in an immortal couplet by that eminent poet and domestic economist, Senator Depew:<br /><br />A cube of cheese no larger than a die / May bait the trap to catch a nibbling mie.<br /><br />--<i>The Devil's Dictionary</i>John Cowanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00249694466806473955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1159512711408715152006-09-29T07:51:00.000+01:002006-09-29T07:51:00.000+01:00I treat data as a plural whenever I can. Just to ...I treat <I>data</I> as a plural whenever I can. Just to make it feel more important.<BR/><BR/>Casting a curse, I would think, is like casting a spell. Over 31,000 google hits for <I>casting a curse</I> and nearly 10,000 for <I>cast a curse</I>.lynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1159506570597468422006-09-29T06:09:00.000+01:002006-09-29T06:09:00.000+01:00This sent me to my ipod to check with Bob Dylan. I...This sent me to my ipod to check with Bob Dylan. I'm sure I remember the lyrics of 'The times, they are a-changin' as 'the line it is drawn/the dice it is cast'. <BR/>Alas! It is 'the curse it is cast', whoever heard of casting a curse anyway?<BR/><BR/>What's the concensus on 'data'? I vote for mass noun.Aidhossnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1159476084114733872006-09-28T21:41:00.000+01:002006-09-28T21:41:00.000+01:00As Ambrose Bierce said: A cube of cheese no bigger...As Ambrose Bierce said: <BR/>A cube of cheese no bigger than a die<BR/>May bait the trap to catch a nibbling mie.kurwamacnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1158663971517714722006-09-19T12:06:00.000+01:002006-09-19T12:06:00.000+01:00This adds to the evidence that linguists are born,...This adds to the evidence that linguists are born, not made!lynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1158520495981326502006-09-17T20:14:00.000+01:002006-09-17T20:14:00.000+01:00It's always been 'a dice' in my (british) family. ...It's always been 'a dice' in my (british) family. I thought about taking up 'die' when I became aware of it as a kid but decided (wrongly, obviously) that it was probably based on the same type of error i'd made as a little kid (and been told of so many times that i can't now tell if it's amusing or not; if not - sorry!): Apparently, my Mum was getting some flowers in from the garden and said something about fetching a vase to put them in. Showing myself as a pedant even at aged 3(ish), i told her, 'No, just one va'. Oh dear.allynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1158441089138127722006-09-16T22:11:00.000+01:002006-09-16T22:11:00.000+01:00Ms Guist is most kind.Ms Guist is most kind.Lady Bracknellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11512216980147042652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1158430172050899912006-09-16T19:09:00.000+01:002006-09-16T19:09:00.000+01:00That's the cutting kind of die. See here for more...That's the cutting kind of die. See <A HREF="http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/7/messages/737.html" REL="nofollow">here</A> for more.lynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1158426084313553952006-09-16T18:01:00.000+01:002006-09-16T18:01:00.000+01:00Would Ms Guist care to comment on the derivation o...Would Ms Guist care to comment on the derivation of the phrase, "as straight as a die"?<BR/><BR/>Is this related to gaming, or are its antecedents elsewhere?Lady Bracknellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11512216980147042652noreply@blogger.com