Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter): So much for democracy and the rule of law in Egypt. Either the people will rise up against him and do a 'Mubarak' on him, or we may be seeing another Iran form up.

Wow. Just wow. But I'm not surprised.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):Here we go again...another Arab Spring in a few months?

I wouldn't be surprised, but they deserve it. Honestly, you know who you're voting for when you vote for them.

Unfortunately, Islam is not just a religion, it is a political movement. When a religion's tenets spell out the rules of life in minute detail, that religion becomes ingrained in all facets of life.

And yes, I know that there are other religions and/or sects that look to control all facets of life, but you don't see Mennonites blowing themselves up.

You've refuted your own point. Other religions and/or sects have plenty of political activism and an all-encompassing set of rules about life is something almost all religions have, it just so happens that Islam is in a region that is extremely volatile politically and its current theology is shaped accordingly. There have been periods of religious calm in the Middle East as well as there have been periods of tumult. Furthermore most Islamic nations have only recently been brought onto the world stage and held to standards of modern, global society and as such the institutions that moderate political extremism in the United States and elsewhere are weak or work in favor of the theocratic movements.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 7):You've refuted your own point. Other religions and/or sects have plenty of political activism and an all-encompassing set of rules about life is something almost all religions have, it just so happens that Islam is in a region that is extremely volatile politically and its current theology is shaped accordingly.

He has not. While other religions have their political adherents and agendas, only Islam explicitly states in its scripture that the church (or mosque) and state should be one and the same, and that any government not run as an Islamic theocracy enforcing religious law as civil and criminal law cannot be legitimate. There is no parallel in any other religion.

No, my point was that there are plenty of religions and/or sects that impart a standard of living from which its adherents are expected to live, but rarely, except in Islam, do we see entire nations ruled by the religion.

Islam is as much a political system as it is a religion. You can't really say that about the other major religions of the world.

Mubarak was a political animal who used religion when he saw advantage in using religion.

Mursi appears to be religious and is backed by the religious.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 7):Furthermore most Islamic nations have only recently been brought onto the world stage and held to standards of modern, global society and as such the institutions that moderate political extremism in the United States and elsewhere are weak or work in favor of the theocratic movements.

It's a very good point, and I've argued it before. But, it doesn't change the fact that these nations are on the world stage and they make the world more dangerous, not less.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 6): And yes, I know that there are other religions and/or sects that look to control all facets of life, but you don't see Mennonites blowing themselves up.

Precisely. A little religion doesn't hurt, except when you have to ram it down someone's throat.....with the barrel of a rifle.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9): No, my point was that there are plenty of religions and/or sects that impart a standard of living from which its adherents are expected to live, but rarely, except in Islam, do we see entire nations ruled by the religion.

You were quoting a post that referred to Morsi being "a clone" of Mubarak. Which while it may very well be what comes about, is not a result of Morsi's Islamism, necessarily.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):
No, my point was that there are plenty of religions and/or sects that impart a standard of living from which its adherents are expected to live, but rarely, except in Islam, do we see entire nations ruled by the religion.

Depends on how you define "rarely," and depends on how you define "ruled by." Islam creates the political ideologies, but the outcomes are dependent on way more than that, and degrees of separation between religion and politics vary from country to country (though seem to be way closer than in Europe and the United States.)

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):
Mubarak was a political animal who used religion when he saw advantage in using religion.

Mursi appears to be religious and is backed by the religious.

True enough. Doesn't make much of a difference as to quality of governance on its own, though.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):
It's a very good point, and I've argued it before. But, it doesn't change the fact that these nations are on the world stage and they make the world more dangerous, not less.

Some of them certainly do, but I sincerely doubt that that Islam as a faith has much to do with it. The pattern I see in the Arab Spring tumult is that the countries tend to be run in a kind of clan/patronage system where the leader's friends and relatives form a core faction/powerbase and benefit accordingly; it's hard to bring pluralism and self-determination into that without turning lots and lots of people against each other. It's very far from a clear parallel but it reminds me a bit of caudillos in South America. Israel and the United States form a convenient distraction and/or complication and/or excuse.

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):So much for democracy and the rule of law in Egypt. Either the people will rise up against him and do a 'Mubarak' on him, or we may be seeing another Iran form up.

We all knew it was going to happen. They freely elected themselves another dictator. I wonder if this one will be better. The trouble with a theocracy isn't so much the lack of a moral compass, but rather that the moral compass always points north, even while your holy shock troops are raping and killing.

Same with post-Gaddafi Libya, will be same for Syria and any other country which has had a civil uprising recently. That is the biggest reason for not getting involved at all in any of these countries. No point endorsing another nutcase to replace the old nutcase. Given that they all seem hellbent on screwing up their own nations, may as well leave them to it with no outside involvement

Anyone surprised by this hasn't been paying attention to the Middle East for the last, well,... forever. We are still a long way from any Arab country adopting a real representative government based on the Rule of Law and acceptance of pluralism and respect for human rights. Maybe a nice little kingdom or perhaps a totalitarian theocracy would work out better for the Egyptians.

This is a bad move indeed but I'm not gonna be so fast to write off Egypt. We can't expect a 1st world democracy out of the blue, hopefully the new Egypt will be a step in the right direction. They have been helping out with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict...

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 17):This is a bad move indeed but I'm not gonna be so fast to write off Egypt.

Exactly. The usual suspects will (or rather, have) of course wail and cry over the supposed creation of another theocracy, but the rest of us are probably going to remember how the Egyptians ousted Mubarak and realise that they haven't lost too much of that fervour:

Quoting aloges (Reply 18):Exactly. The usual suspects will (or rather, have) of course wail and cry over the supposed creation of another theocracy, but the rest of us are probably going to remember how the Egyptians ousted Mubarak and realise that they haven't lost too much of that fervour:

Great. So they can elect themselves an other "proper Islamic" dictator again and again. Perhaps, one day, they will realize that their personal idea of "proper Islamic" differs from those of their neighbors enough that maybe it's best that the government not be anyone's idea of "proper Islamic."

While Morsi has his supporters much of the opposition on the streets is coming from those who do not want a "proper Islamic" state. They are and have been calling for greater democracy and freedom for all Egyptians. Those are the people we should be encouraging, rather than smugly saying, "I told you so."

Couple of points to remember. Despite the protestations of the judiciary of interference with their independence, the judiciary remains in large part those appointed by Mubarak. They have been trying to block the work of the Constituent Assembly charged with drafting a new constitution. Second, Morsi has reiterated that once the Assembly has finished drafting a constitution it will be put to the vote in a referendum.

It remains to be seen if this will happen, so it may be premature to bemoan the rise of a theocratic dictatorship. The best guarantee against that happening is the continued self-organisation of the people. We might also like to remember that democracy did not just fall into place in Western Countries but arose out of decades of struggle. Why would we expect a perfect democracy in Egypt when the West was willing to prop up a regime in which the real independence of political parties was stifled?

While there is a danger that Morsi may attempt to consolidate his position, I do note that the extension of immunity to members of the Constituent Assembly is similar to the immunity enjoyed by members of parliament in Western Countries. Nor can a judge in the West typically dissolve Parliament.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):only Islam explicitly states in its scripture that the church (or mosque) and state should be one and the same, and that any government not run as an Islamic theocracy enforcing religious law as civil and criminal law cannot be legitimate. There is no parallel in any other religion.

Really? I guess my country isn't Islamic

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 8):You can't really say that about the other major religions of the world.

And oh, how many non-Islamic countries still have an official 'state religion' ?

Back to Egypt... the people of Egypt deserve better after all they've been through... but given it has just come out of a long dictatorship... it'll take a while before it all settles down into a proper new direction... but then, Morsi making these laws, are just making it... errr... potentially way skewed! I'll just wait and see...

Be happy about that. Most countries bow to the state religion (if they have one), but don't take everything in it fortunately.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 21):And oh, how many non-Islamic countries still have an official 'state religion' ?

How many of them restrict the rights of those who are not of the state religion, in civil and criminal matters, impose additional taxes on them like the Jizya?

Anyway, The point is not an Islam bash-fest. But we can't fight the problem unless we recognize that the main reason why we have a big problem with Islamic fundamentalism is that there are some pretty radical things in the Quran and Hadiths that encourage it. The same might be said about other religions, but not to the same extent - which is why we don't have as many problems with fundamentalists of those religions.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 22):But we can't fight the problem unless we recognize that the main reason why we have a big problem with Islamic fundamentalism is that there are some pretty radical things in the Quran and Hadiths that encourage it. The same might be said about other religions, but not to the same extent - which is why we don't have as many problems with fundamentalists of those religions.

I disagree with the "encourage"... I don't feel encouraged to do whatever they do...
Extent, also, I disagree... I've seen some pretty bad fundamentalists from the faiths here... but one thing we can agree on, they're all pretty damn freaky, and I hope none of them gets into any government!