I am NOT trying to attack people or anything like that. I just want to find out WHY this happens. Why would Muslims live in, of all places, Amsterdam? They murdered a Dutch film maker, they are, incredibly, screaming for swimming pools to be shut down because they can't stand seeing women in swimsuits, they want movies banned (except, maybe films saying that Islam is the only religion in existence!), they basically want EVERYTHING banned. I cannot think of a single thing in Amsterdam that a Muslim would approve of. So, why are they there? They know Amsterdam has things like total freedom and the Red Light District. Why would they want to live in a country that is liberal in thoughts and all areas of life? It's a bit like Hitler wanting to live in Israel. Why don't they live in a stricly Muslim country instead of living in what is probably the most open society in the world? Again, I'm just curious.

First of all: Welcome to the A-net and a happy new year. That was the nice part.

Now the hard part: Did it ever occur to you, that "THE MUSLIMS" did definitely NOT KILL Theo van Gogh, but ONE MUSLIM, a criminal, a fanatic of the worst kind. Not "THE MUSLIMS" want to close down swimming pools, but some religious fanatics, which represent a minority...the others just don't go there if they don't like it. And they just don't walk the red light district...nobody does except totally shitfaced Englishmen (Hi Guys ).

Problem is: By generalising you don't talk about a solution to the problem of multi-cultural societies but instead you add to the problem. Think about this!

I know Amsterdam, I've been there many times, at least 10 visits per year and I live in Berlin/Germany, which is well comparable to Amsterdam, lots of Muslims live there, a rather open society, people practising nudism, red light districts...sure, there are fanatics who don't like this, but in general, there is not a specifically muslim problem in Berlin, but a "ghetto" problem, that is not exclusive to islamic people!

I think you missed my point. The person was Muslim, not Buddhist or Mormon or any other religion. I have heard of Protestant and Catholic violence but it seems to be Islamic extremism that always grabs the headlines. (I don't know why, maybe someone working in the media is to blame) Then, may I ask you this: why do I only hear from Muslims arguing that there is a so-called "Christian Crusade" to destroy Islam? Why do I only hear about "Muslim extremism"? I have never heard of "Buddhist extremism" or other religions relating to terrorist activities. Who was the most likely suspect in the World Trade Center attacks? Muslim extremists say the media. Who is whining and complaining about open societies? Muslim extremists say the media. You do have a point about not generalizing but then, I have never heard a single word from any Muslims criticizing Osama Bin Laden. I have NOT heard any Muslim charities or foundations criticizing the Sept. 11 attacks. I have never heard any Muslim group demand that Osama Bin Laden be sentenced to death should he be caught. I have never heard of any other religion involved in cases where "religious donations" were used to fund extremist activities. And you still haven't really answered the question: why would they live there? They know what Amsterdam is like. It's world famous for the Red Light District and its open societies. Trust me, Islam doesn't promote openness. Just read the Koran. I've looked at it and it clearly is against such attitudes.

This was taken from http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6446342
"Van Gogh, who received death threats for his film, “Submission,” that criticized the treatment of women under Islam, was shot and stabbed while bicycling on a busy Amsterdam street. The killer cut his throat and — in a note impaled on Van Gogh’s chest — threatened more attacks in the name of radical Islam."

Further down it says:
"Bouyeri is allegedly a member of a radical Islamic group said to have ties to terrorists in Spain and Syria."
Sheesh, is every Islamic group affiliated with terrorists? The news media seem obssessed with the words "affiliated with terrorists." It always pops up when something like this happens so it's no wonder that the media are starting to make it seem normal for Islam to be linked to violence or terrorism in some way. Maybe the media need to be more careful with the words they print. But I live in a country where they are almost never questioned openly or criticized out in public. No wonder some people believe absolutely everything they say. I do NOT believe everything I see on the news so maybe the fools working in the media need to be a bit more aware of what they are saying. Or are they succeeding in making me believe what they want me to hear?

Certainly, van Goghs murderer was an Islamic fanatic, certainly some Islamic groups did criticize his last film at length and THERE we have indeed one of those problems that seem to emerge now into the attention of the media, but has been festering since decades:

Yes, maybe the Koran says to condemn all these things, maybe so, I didn't read it, but then it is the Muslims who obey to their own regulations, and if that doesn't interfere with Dutch law, let them do it...and I can assure you that 90% of all Muslims living in Amsterdam (and in Berlin, for that matter) keep to this...they accept Dutch/German law, but gladly accept that fact that both countries give their citizens the freedom to believe what they want. And these 90% have absolutely no problem with pot-smoking, red light districts and naked women. There's only a militant minority that wants to "crusade" across the religious borderlines.

Is this a problem with media? Yes probably, but in the first place there's a problem with politicians, that definitely includes GWB and his government, that includes definitely the governments of the Netherlands, of Germany, of France...pick your choice. They did not try to cope with those militant minorities, now we have to deal with the violent outbreaks!

In the case of the USA, there's an additional problem: America's policy in the Middle East. I do not want to wake up our young Republicans to fully destroy this thread by babbling nonsense, but imagine, just imagine a totally neutral person, say, an alien from outer space visiting earth for the first time: How would someone like that see the role of the USA in thge Middle East: Pro-Islamic: NO!!! Defintely not...neutral: NO! Definitely not!! Pro-Israel: Yes, definitely! And as matter of fact, that is seen by many muslims as anti-Islam per se!

Now is it true? From a general point of view, I don't think so, I think, the USA do have the right idea to fight all extremists, but many things that were and are still done are emitting a completely different picture to the Muslim "man in the street". Please do not forget that many people in the Middle East are poor and lack formal education, therefore they are easy prey for fanatics!

As for not condemning 9/11 and other atrocities...well, I've seen different things in Holland and Germany with my own eyes....do not trust your media here. I do actually understand that some Muslims feel there's a Christian crusade going on in the media against Islam...I'm convinced it is not true, but you can't fight the feeling somehow.

Now if we talk about terrorism: I gues there is no dissense here, and that includes most Muslims as well: Kill them, kill them all, and do it quickly before they strike again...and then see to it that the roots of fanaticism are destroyed, too...unfortunately that takes a long time, I'm afraid! And the Dutch are currently beginning to see this, too!

Swisskloten,
Muslims move to Amsterdam mostly due to the fact that the job oppurtunities are better than at home, and they do not just live in Amsterdam, they live in many places in Europe, North America, and the West in general (including Australia).

They murdered a Dutch film maker

There are over a billion Muslims, and onlly one of them murdered the dutch film maker. It is sort of like the abortion clinic bombings, you cannot blame all of Christianity for them, can you?

screaming for swimming pools to be shut down because they can't stand seeing women in swimsuits

I personally think that people who want this to happen shouldn't complain as they chose to go to the country, so they should follow the culture. But, you are making two mistakes here: generalising, and secondly, as Andreas pointed out, all immigrant groups are like this - they make demands that are out of place. In Qatar, European expats frequently break the laws about underage drinking, and they eat during Ramadan in public despite it being not allowed. It happens with all minorities within a country.

want movies banned (except, maybe films saying that Islam is the only religion in existence!), they basically want EVERYTHING banned. I cannot think of a single thing in Amsterdam that a Muslim would approve of.

The movie they wanted to be banned is one that unfairly attacked Islam, and was one that gave people false ideas. They can petition for it to be banned but its up to the government to decide. I think they have a right to protest against something that attacks them unfairly, dont you think? The statement above is greatly exageratted.

Why would they want to live in a country that is liberal in thoughts and all areas of life?

Better oppurtunites, and for some, like the Saudi opposition groups in London, political freedom. But, again, you are generalising. Just because a few Muslims are like this does not mean they all are.

Why don't they live in a stricly Muslim country instead of living in what is probably the most open society in the world? Again, I'm just curious.

More freedom, more opputunites, basically the same as I said above.

I have heard of Protestant and Catholic violence but it seems to be Islamic extremism that always grabs the headlines.

During The Troubles, in Northern Ireland, the IRA and everything going on there grabbed the headlines. During the Cold War, there was a lot of coverage on the Soviet Union. Now, there are a few Muslim Extremist groups, who make up what, half a percent of Muslims, that are ruining our religion. Islamic extremism might be in the spotlight today, but things are not that simple. There are causes for the extremism, and there is more to it than that.

Then, may I ask you this: why do I only hear from Muslims arguing that there is a so-called "Christian Crusade" to destroy Islam?

Because Mormons or Buddhists aren't going to be interested if Islam is on the attack as much as Muslims are, dont you think? They are saying this because of Palestine/Israel, Iraq, Chechneya, Serbia, and many other places Muslims have suffered over the past decade. That does not mean that Christians really are trying to destroy Islam, it just shows us that these people feel like this for a reason.

Why do I only hear about "Muslim extremism"? I have never heard of "Buddhist extremism" or other religions relating to terrorist activities.

Then you have not looked hard enough. Any religion has its extremists, and its terrorists. Again, you have the Northern Ireland example. And, over the past two milleniums, I think Christianity showed us what a brutal religion it can be, and you have terror against Palestinians going on in Palestine by Jews. You hear about Muslim extremism only because that is what you choose to hear.

Who was the most likely suspect in the World Trade Center attacks?

A group that happens to be Muslim. Was the McVeigh bombing commited by Muslims? You cannot say that all terrorist attacks are being carried out by Muslims because it is simply not true.

Who is whining and complaining about open societies?

Actually, Muslims are complaing and "whining" for open societies in their own countries.

You do have a point about not generalizing but then, I have never heard a single word from any Muslims criticizing Osama Bin Laden.

LOL! Welcome to the 21st centrury then, Most Muslims hate the guy and all Muslims governments have condemned them, you obviously do not know much Muslims.

I have never heard of any other religion involved in cases where "religious donations" were used to fund extremist activities.

Again, your not looking hard enough.

why would they live there?

Read above.

Trust me, Islam doesn't promote openness. Just read the Koran. I've looked at it and it clearly is against such attitudes.

Reading and Understanding the Quran are two different things, and it is the reason we have extremists. The Quran is often misinterpretated, and when things are taken out of context they look bad, which is probably what you've seen. Trust me, a Muslim, Islam promotes a lot of openness.

Sheesh, is every Islamic group affiliated with terrorists?

Lets see. What do the media want to report about, Islamic groups not related to terrorists, which wont really have much relevance for news, or those who do?

I live in a country where they are almost never questioned openly or criticized out in public. No wonder some people believe absolutely everything they say.

*COUGH*Iraq*COUGH*WMDs*COUGH*

---

Islam is a complicated religion to understand, Swisskloten, because of the number of different interpretations of the Quran there are. But, most Islamic countries are open, with the exception of Saudi Arabia. Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt are example of countries where the populations are actually quite liberal, even if the governments are corrupt. Dont forget Islam is a huge religion made up of over one billion people, do not think these are all taught to think as extremists.

I will be glad to answer any other questions you have to clear the distorted view of Islam you seem to have.

Swisskloten,
Muslims move to Amsterdam mostly due to the fact that the job oppurtunities are better than at home, and they do not just live in Amsterdam, they live in many places in Europe, North America, and the West in general (including Australia).

And herein lies the crux of the issue.

Instead of reform in their homeland, they are emigrating everywhere else. Not that I have anything wrong with immigration, but it has gone unchecked and no one has really confronted how to deal with the problem. And let's face it--there are problems with assimilation in Europe and the Western nations.

Not a flame, mind you....just asking a broader philosophical question.

No one should complain about immigration going "unchecked", especially Americans whose nation was founded by unchecked immigrants and Europeans who sent "colonisers" to every place they could reach.

Bunk.

We had controlled immigration, not some unchecked free-for-all as you suggest. You will kindly recall that at places such as Ellis Island, we registered our immigrants, screened them for diseases, etc. I remain all in favor of legal, controlled immigration, especially for people from downtrodden nations, political refugees, etc.

Now the rampant illegal immigration that is happening is destroying us. There is no assimilation, diseases once thought extinct are coming back, and our borders, language and culture are being diluted.

Aloges- I'm not anti-immigration, but the Dutch neex to examine what they want their culture to reflect, and whether they feel the benefits of their Muslim inundation outweigh the costs. There was nothing inflammatory in my post, in that regard, nor any intended.