I read a lot of other fans forums and this is run of the mill stuff. Team plays like crap...fans complain. Team wins....fans complain. If you want people to talk about good things then start talking about the good things.

I think this year will be full of mixed emotions the entire season. We are getting to know this "new team" better.They will forever be compared to the championship team or the philosophy used to build the championship team until we either settle into our new identity (contender or rebuilder) or return to the NBA Finals using our new approach. Prepare for a roller coaster. As loyal devoted Pistons fans who give our lives to reading these post daily, we've earned the right to side with whatever faction forms in the forums. It's healthy. It makes for good conversation. And it makes it fun.

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This might be the truest statement to come from this thread so far. Well put, MoPride.

I posted into this when we were 3-5 and had just lost to a bad team at home. As Mercury wrote Its ok to air your displeasure at something like that. Things were not looking too good a couple of weeks ago. Since then they have won 5 straight and are right back in the hunt. And you have to appreciate how they have been winning. Winning games down the stretch. Going inside, really starting to get that inside game going. The frontcourt has finally been extended to 4 guys instead of 3.

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This is also well said. The Pistons have been playing better. A lot better. If they came out of the gate looking like this, then maybe this thread doesn't get posted. Because they're doing more than scoring now. They are getting offensive rebounds (Tay's been great), passing much better, creating turnovers...the things I love to watch. Is Flip coaching this stuff? If so I need to ease up on him.

The question now is which Piston team is the real one? The 3-5 guys or the 5-0 guys? We need to play some better teams before we start to get a clue.

I agree with Merc. We are spoiled as fans. Especially when you consider how many times the Pistons have been legit contenders in their 60 year history. Most years it was I hope they get to .500

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Agreed. We are lucky to have the Pistons.

Finally, I just want to try to clarify my perspective to Merc. I don't mean to be a fickle fan. I don't enjoy dumping on the Pistons when they are losing.

What this is about, for me, is not wanting the Pistons to lose their identity. Some sports franchises have no identity. They just exist, sometimes winning, sometimes losing. But the Pistons have developed this identity of toughness, of unapologetic non-superstar, sometimes ugly basketball, since the Bad Boys days. Ben and RC restored that, and Larry took it to the top of the mountain. And sometimes I worry that Flip doesn't see it as his charge to follow in that tradition.

The Piston franchise should stand as a pillar for basketball fundamentals - Playing the Right Way, if you will - no matter how much David Stern wants to rid this from succeeding in his NBA. Does Flip understand this? I still don't know.

What this is about, for me, is not wanting the Pistons to lose their identity. Some sports franchises have no identity. They just exist, sometimes winning, sometimes losing. But the Pistons have developed this identity of toughness, of unapologetic non-superstar, sometimes ugly basketball, since the Bad Boys days. Ben and RC restored that, and Larry took it to the top of the mountain. And sometimes I worry that Flip doesn't see it as his charge to follow in that tradition.

The Piston franchise should stand as a pillar for basketball fundamentals - Playing the Right Way, if you will - no matter how much David Stern wants to rid this from succeeding in his NBA. Does Flip understand this? I still don't know.

This is also well said. The Pistons have been playing better. A lot better. If they came out of the gate looking like this, then maybe this thread doesn't get posted. Because they're doing more than scoring now. They are getting offensive rebounds (Tay's been great), passing much better, creating turnovers...the things I love to watch. Is Flip coaching this stuff? If so I need to ease up on him.

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Griff, I think this is part of max is referring to--when things are going badly, everyone unloads on Flip, but when things go well, he doesn't seem to get any credit at all.

Now, I'm not saying that "Flip roolz!" or that he's a better coach than LB--I don't think either of things are true. I can agree with a lot of the frequently voiced criticisms of the bench management, shot selection, etc. But, I think the credit when things are going well--and the blame when things are going badly--should be spread out more evenly.

The question now is which Piston team is the real one? The 3-5 guys or the 5-0 guys? We need to play some better teams before we start to get a clue.

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maybe both are the real one...

Griffin said:

What this is about, for me, is not wanting the Pistons to lose their identity. Some sports franchises have no identity. They just exist, sometimes winning, sometimes losing. But the Pistons have developed this identity of toughness, of unapologetic non-superstar, sometimes ugly basketball, since the Bad Boys days. Ben and RC restored that, and Larry took it to the top of the mountain. And sometimes I worry that Flip doesn't see it as his charge to follow in that tradition.

The Piston franchise should stand as a pillar for basketball fundamentals - Playing the Right Way, if you will - no matter how much David Stern wants to rid this from succeeding in his NBA. Does Flip understand this? I still don't know.

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this seems like a fair expression of what a lot of people might be feeling. i'd like to register an alternative opinion: i have zero investment in their identity, past or present. that is to say, i've enjoyed their different identities in different ways, but more than anything, i think i just enjoy the varied rhythms over time: a combo and style (identity) that works, then new people, adjustments, adaptations, new rivalries, new initiatives or constraints from the league, more adjustments and adaptations, shifting identity and finding ways to win throughout that -- that's what i dig.

the only time, i guess, that it's not fun for me, is when it looks like the team's not having fun. that part is sad for me.

What this is about, for me, is not wanting the Pistons to lose their identity. Some sports franchises have no identity. They just exist, sometimes winning, sometimes losing. But the Pistons have developed this identity of toughness, of unapologetic non-superstar, sometimes ugly basketball, since the Bad Boys days. Ben and RC restored that, and Larry took it to the top of the mountain. And sometimes I worry that Flip doesn't see it as his charge to follow in that tradition.

The Piston franchise should stand as a pillar for basketball fundamentals - Playing the Right Way, if you will - no matter how much David Stern wants to rid this from succeeding in his NBA. Does Flip understand this? I still don't know.

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On the Flip Side; we must be careful to not go the way of the Oaktown Raiders. Gotta adjust to these Stern times which are a changin. Code words, proclaimations and mantras ring hollow after the winning ceases.

this seems like a fair expression of what a lot of people might be feeling. i'd like to register an alternative opinion: i have zero investment in their identity, past or present. that is to say, i've enjoyed their different identities in different ways, but more than anything, i think i just enjoy the varied rhythms over time: a combo and style (identity) that works, then new people, adjustments, adaptations, new rivalries, new initiatives or constraints from the league, more adjustments and adaptations, shifting identity and finding ways to win throughout that -- that's what i dig.

the only time, i guess, that it's not fun for me, is when it looks like the team's not having fun. that part is sad for me.

What this is about, for me, is not wanting the Pistons to lose their identity. Some sports franchises have no identity. They just exist, sometimes winning, sometimes losing. But the Pistons have developed this identity of toughness, of unapologetic non-superstar, sometimes ugly basketball, since the Bad Boys days. Ben and RC restored that, and Larry took it to the top of the mountain. And sometimes I worry that Flip doesn't see it as his charge to follow in that tradition.

The Piston franchise should stand as a pillar for basketball fundamentals - Playing the Right Way, if you will - no matter how much David Stern wants to rid this from succeeding in his NBA. Does Flip understand this? I still don't know.

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Another great post Grif...you cut to the heart of the matter for most of us Piston fans.

In truth, I don't think there are more than a handful of PF.com members that don't wish the best for the Pistons. This forum allows the rest of us to either cheerlead or express our displeasure regarding our views on the direction of the franchise in a civilized manor. I don't think any of us want the Pistons to loose the identity that is their backbone...smart ball, defensive intensity, and a heart with the will to win when others say it can't be done.

Censorship? Aurora...please reconsider...roscoe would have to throw out 75% of Low's posts and probably 50% of mine LOL ! Negativity is not always a bad thing...it helps to promote change of the status quo.

Griff, I think this is part of max is referring to--when things are going badly, everyone unloads on Flip, but when things go well, he doesn't seem to get any credit at all.

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I will be more than happy to extend credit to Flip when he has earned it. I have asked forum members a number of times over the last year to cite even one instance of a good in-game coaching decision by Flip...I have had no reply. Not ragging Flip...but LB came out of timeouts repeatedly with a play to put points on the board and help to instill a defensive shutdown of the opponent. LB wasn't always successful in his desire to motivate the team...but he got his point across more often than not.

Flip has not given me reason to put any faith in his coaching ability...I'm still waiting hopefully. Flip leaving Delfino in for the entire 4th last night was a glimmer of hope that he can get the entire roster into the flow and promote team ball which is the Piston's mainstay.

I will be more than happy to extend credit to Flip when he has earned it. I have asked forum members a number of times over the last year to cite even one instance of a good in-game coaching decision by Flip...I have had no reply. Not ragging Flip...but LB came out of timeouts repeatedly with a play to put points on the board and help to instill a defensive shutdown of the opponent. LB wasn't always successful in his desire to motivate the team...but he got his point across more often than not.

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I'm not sure of anything as specific as out-of-the-timeout plays, but starting with the second half of last week's loss to the Hornets (last game they lost before winning five in a row), the Pistons have been playing a lot better overall. So, if we blame Flip for their terrible effort in the first half of that game (and it sure was terrible), shouldn't we also give him some credit for whatever it was he said to them at halftime? The two halves of that Hornets game were a night and day difference, so shouldn't getting a significantly higher level of play in the second half count as good "in-game" coaching? And it seems to have continued over the next five games, for the most part.

I can understand Griff being a little sensitive towards the "excessive whining" comments... make no mistake my friend (Ceegriif?) this had no reflection on your fine well thought out posts.

Aura please believe that nobody is "trying to be the boss of you" or telling you what you shouldn't post... we share a community and it's up to all members to remain respectful and a make this a desirable place to stop.
If the community is portrayed as a negative environment we risk losing quality posters and their insights... we don't have to look any further than Mlive or the Detroit News forums to see how Prince of pessimisms drive away excellent contributors.
Our comments do effect readership and participation...
I've enjoyed G-Man's contributions of historical league events... also Jtrain's excellent commentary on strategic post play...
even my man Unc Ty's scoop on what goes on inside the Pistons private parties.
They have choices of where to make their cyber stops... if they choose a political forum instead of visiting a "whinery" I certainly can't blame them.
We've seen first hand forum flight caused by perpetual negativity.
There is a substantial difference from making realistic negative comments and being a leader in degrading the community...
Censorship?... not a chance... more like using your own common sense-or-ship good folks away.

Now if we could keep that damn lazy ass Sheed motivated we might have a shot at the East again. lol

On the Flip Side; we must be careful to not go the way of the Oaktown Raiders. Gotta adjust to these Stern times which are a changin. Code words, proclaimations and mantras ring hollow after the winning ceases.

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I like the mantra and philosophy even when the winning slows. (Maybe not ceases!) A few years ago, my other favorite team was the 76ers under LB. They played great fundamental BBall, and ALWAYS played hard. They didn't win alot, but it was a great game to watch, and you knew they would bring it.

Now if we could keep that damn lazy ass Sheed motivated we might have a shot at the East again. lol

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The East is once again so awful that it probably won't even matter.

I agree with a lot of what Griff wrote, but the older I get, the further removed I am from being able to draw conclusions like that in November. If nothing else, this franchise's very recent history has proven that being strong or weak in November typically has an inverse effect on their long term fortunes. And, in relation to the slow start this year, in all the waxing whistful about LB and how hard his teams play, let it not be forgotten that his teams were on the ass end of some confounding early losses along the way. I personally can see no reason to think that would be any different if he was still coaching this team right now.

Even the second of the two Bad Boy champs had a couple 20+ blowouts handed to them early on and sat at just 13-10 in mid-December before taking off. I remember being sure back then that they were a one-and-done title winner.

Not saying in any of this that individual losses don't get me hot or that I don't scream at the t.v. or anything like that (after all, a bonehead play is still a bonehead play no matter when it happens), but I'm actually enjoying watching this team discover it's post-Ben identity. Anyone who thought that they would know exactly what that was and exactly how to go about filling that void right out of the gate was fooling themselves.

Thing is, the recent teams were clearly constructed to take advantage of a player with an incredibly unique skill set. The reliance on Ben these past several years to do a laundry list of things that typically standard lineups take care of as a whole created a rather false sense of security that he would always come to the rescue. As his ability to generate the sort of energy necessary to kickstart the rest of the team waned, that model collapsed, and collapsed hard.

As much as I loved watching Ben do his thing when he was at the top of his game, when he went south, he became, to me, absolutely unwatchable. What good is being athletic when the athleticism starts to fade and you've done so little to add even the slightest tangible amount of refinement to your game, especially on the offensive end? How is it possible to be that awful executing the most basic of movements after all these years?

Last year was the first time in memory I found myself turning off playoff games because I couldn't stand the sight of watching him. Not that one player should solely bear the burden of a team collapse, but for better or worse, the team was built around him, and there wasn't much chance of relief when he would or could no longer deliver.

Chicago's finding that out in a big way right now, especially since he no longer has a really solid running mate like Sheed or Cliff Robinson to handle all the "housekeeping" chores.

So, beyond wins and losses, this season is going to be one of discovery, and I'm really interested in seeing how it plays out. I don't care about fantasy runs toward the 70 win club or anything like that. I want to see them do what all good teams do, use the season to build an individual identity that best suits its lineup, and go from there.

Even the second of the two Bad Boy champs had a couple 20+ blowouts handed to them early on and sat at just 13-10 in mid-December before taking off. I remember being sure back then that they were a one-and-done title winner.

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Memory is a funny thing. The bad boys, Zeke, Vinnie, Bill and Joe had several stinker games in the playoffs, most of which we have all forgotten. Time favours the victor.

As much as I loved watching Ben do his thing when he was at the top of his game, when he went south, he became, to me, absolutely unwatchable. What good is being athletic when the athleticism starts to fade and you've done so little to add even the slightest tangible amount of refinement to your game, especially on the offensive end? How is it possible to be that awful executing the most basic of movements after all these years?

Last year was the first time in memory I found myself turning off playoff games because I couldn't stand the sight of watching him. Not that one player should solely bear the burden of a team collapse, but for better or worse, the team was built around him, and there wasn't much chance of relief when he would or could no longer deliver.

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If I am being honest with myself, and I have tried lately to be honest about Chauncey and Ben, we got out at the right time. Maybe not the right time if we're leading with our hearts, but without a doubt the right time if we are leading with our heads. Ben taking that extension could have been catastrophic to the longterm future of this club.

If you need to air your grievances, join a protest group, go for counseling, or call your mother, but the constant criticism of the coach, players and general manager are getting pretty tiresome. I joined this forum because I wanted to share my love of the Pistons with other fans. I can't say that I am enjoying it much! Please guys lighten up!​

If folks are going to complain about certain threads, without supporting the ones they claim to want...

Let's get this thread back on topic (again). Please, no more crapping. If you don't agree with it's existence, spare us. Everyone is entitled to present their opinion on the team, no matter what it is.

If folks are going to complain about certain threads, without supporting the ones they claim to want...

Let's get this thread back on topic (again). Please, no more crapping. If you don't agree with it's existence, spare us. Everyone is entitled to present their opinion on the team, no matter what it is.

It seems to me that this is definitely the most negative thread that has been on this board, in well I can't remember how long.

I vote for closing it in the spirit of the happy and joyous holiday season and if the Pistons are not among the top teams in the league come April then re-opening it at that time.

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I came to this forum because (1) great graphics, (2) the Darko lovers or haters were driving me over the edge on Mlive, and (3) the forum on DetNews is full of posters arguing non-stop. But the Flip hate - I guess because he has a bad playoff history - is stressing me out. If the team hits a home run - like six wins in a row - it is the remnants of LBs teachings and nothing to do with Flip. Did Larry pick up Carlisle's stuff and tweak it or did he bring his experience? Could the Pistons have kept up with Washington under LB, scoring 34 to the Wizs 35 in qtr 1? Every coach has his/her style. To expect him to pick up where LB left off means he should also be a drama qu... uh, king, right? The Pistons were in the ECF three or four years in a row, right? Finals two years, winning once, and the second year was also with LB. WTF? We are spoiled because they have been so good for so long. He gets credit from me for wins losses, not just losses.