You have yourself admitted that you support taxes (robbing people) & you support conscription (coercion), which automatically means that you don't believe in equal rights for all people but instead a system where people in government have more rights than rest of the people.

You can keep pretending that you are for freedom but you aren't, you just want "your version of freedom" just like socialists want "their version of freedom", not equal freedom for everyone!

Your reading comprehension fails you miserably. I 100% agree with Ron Paul. I've read much of what he has written and I have watched many hours of his videos. My positions are completely in line with Ron Paul's position as he has articulated them. I believe that Ron Paul will go down in history as the greatest defender of liberty of our time. If you don't agree with Ron Paul, then that is fine with me, I seriously don't care. Just stop spreading lies about me and my positions.

Pulling a trigger = coercive intent. Telling another to pull a trigger = coercive intent. Intentionally withholding food = intentionally withholding food. One is an active attack on another, and the other is passive non-action. It's apples and oranges.

There is intent to kill in both instances & yet your verdict varies, that in itself proves my point that taking on such a stance is going to lead to a lot of disagreements amongst people & thousands of pages worth of legal code, which will eventually only stand to make lawyers richer & free more criminals.
Besides, if only hitman is held liable then there will be less incentive for his (likely rich) client to work towards getting a good lawyer & free him, which leaves a higher chance of having the actual coercive people getting convicted, & carrying on from my illustration in the previous post, the less "People-B" are out there, the less crime there will be irrespective of how many "People-A" are there.
Clearly, you haven't thought things through......but then you don't seem to have thought things through on other issues either.....
Nonetheless, as I've said, your judgment is very much clouded by conspiracy-theories so I won't argue.

Originally Posted by bxm042

I haven't proven that the bankers make more money with the Fed than without it? Just how dense are you? a) It's simple economics, b) I posted it earlier, c) you still haven't addressed it - at all.

And I've also pointed out in my previous posts that until the recent crisis, Fed hadn't benefitted banks in such ways & to such an extent.
So your basic argument is that bankers created Fed in 1913 & waited for almost a hundred years before extracting benefits from the system???? Really???
Clearly shows again that your views are based solely on conspiracy-theories rather than facts, reason & objectivity.

Or wait, let me guess, bankers are actually shape-shifting lizards who live for thousands or millions of years so they don't mind waiting a 100 or so!!!

Fed didn't buy up all those bad assets because they want to benefit the banks, they did so out of fear of further collapse of banks leading to worsening of the economy, further, it's also a way for Bernanke to try & drive down rates & thereby try to re-infate the bubble. But again, you don't seem to understand these things so good luck with conspiracies, lizards & everything.

Originally Posted by bxm042

It's proven they make more money with the Fed than without it. Your denial of this simple economic fact speaks volumes.

The bankers, out of their own personal greed and avarice, have contracted the government into building and maintaining a monetary system designed to steal from me, and give it to bankers and politicians. They lie through their teeth to protect the system for their own wealth, and show zero concern for the monstrous tyrannical government they have built with the system they created.

Your denial of this, again, speaks volumes.

Again, you don't understand how Fed works, what motivates them to do the things they do, how the government extracts enormous wealth through the economy through Fed, you can't even grasp the history of money that governments have always tried to control issuance of money & this system is no different.......you just can't grasp things so it seems palatable to believe fancy conspiracy-theories, researching & learning facts objectively is too much work I suppose

Last edited by Paul Or Nothing II; 11-04-2012 at 12:36 PM.

There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
- Milton Friedman

Your reading comprehension fails you miserably. I 100% agree with Ron Paul. I've read much of what he has written and I have watched many hours of his videos. My positions are completely in line with Ron Paul's position as he has articulated them. I believe that Ron Paul will go down in history as the greatest defender of liberty of our time. If you don't agree with Ron Paul, then that is fine with me, I seriously don't care. Just stop spreading lies about me and my positions.

It's really funny how hard you are trying to convince yourself that you're for liberty & equality, even though you're not!

As for reading comprehension goes, well, may be you should look at yours more closely, as I've repeatedly pointed out why you are against freedom & equality & yet you just can't seem to connect the dots (or are pretending not to be able to connect them out of fear of realization that you're in fact against liberty & equality)

I don't know what "lies" I've posted but may be you have a different definition of what constitutes a "lie" since you seem to have your own weird definitions for "freedom" & "equality"

Nonetheless, I'll point it out again, may be this time you'll be able to connect the dots -
Ok, so you have admitted that you support taxation which equals supporting robbery, you support conscription which equals supporting coercion & slavery, it means that you believe that people in government have more rights than the rest, which means you support a class-structure where people in government are masters while rest of people are their slaves!

There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
- Milton Friedman

Yes, because the laws of supply and demand are a relatively new invention.

All you're doing now is resorting to personal attacks, strawmen, and red herrings. I'm done arguing with you PON II.

It is pretty funny watching you try to struggle to defend the crimes of the bankers though.

Really??? So that's your contention???? Pretty pathetic it must be said

It's really funny how conspiracy-theorists try to find things to justify their ill-conceived beliefs, & every time a mirror is shattered they try to find a new fake one that will tell them what they believe to be true.
First, the conspiracy-theorists, convinced that bankers are the cause of every problem in the world, claim that "evil bankers" receive interest from government on the money they create, when that nonsense was proven to be false, conspiracy-theorists claim that "evil bankers" are earning excessively through PD-system & that's why they support Fed, after it's pointed that existence of PDs isn't dependent upon existence of Fed, conspiracy-theorists claim that "evil bankers" are benefitting through Fed buying up their bad assets, after it's pointed out that that has never been the norm for a century since Fed's inception, then, conspiracy-theorists don't know whether to run or to hide!

Nonetheless, thanks for all the laughs you've provided, I hope that some day you'll learn the good sense to base your views on facts, reason & objectivity, & not on fancy, speculative hypotheses born out of the minds of some internet-nobodies, who can't be bothered with facts & reality! Good luck!

There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
- Milton Friedman

It's really funny how hard you are trying to convince yourself that you're for liberty & equality, even though you're not!

As for reading comprehension goes, well, may be you should look at yours more closely, as I've repeatedly pointed out why you are against freedom & equality & yet you just can't seem to connect the dots (or are pretending not to be able to connect them out of fear of realization that you're in fact against liberty & equality)

I don't know what "lies" I've posted but may be you have a different definition of what constitutes a "lie" since you seem to have your own weird definitions for "freedom" & "equality"

Nonetheless, I'll point it out again, may be this time you'll be able to connect the dots -
Ok, so you have admitted that you support taxation which equals supporting robbery, you support conscription which equals supporting coercion & slavery, it means that you believe that people in government have more rights than the rest, which means you support a class-structure where people in government are masters while rest of people are their slaves!

lolz... Well PONII if it weren't for you telling me what I believe then I wouldn't believe anything at all. It is rather dumb to keep lying about me. Everyone else on the forum can read dude. We all know you are simply a shill for the evil bankers.

lolz... Well PONII if it weren't for you telling me what I believe then I wouldn't believe anything at all. It is rather dumb to keep lying about me. Everyone else on the forum can read dude. We all know you are simply a shill for the evil bankers.

There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
- Milton Friedman

And I've never said bankers aren't evil or anything, bankers are a diverse group of individuals, I don't know all of them so I can't paint them with any kind broad brush - all I've tried is to point out that in the light of facts & reason (as opposed to fancy conspiracy-theories), it CAN'T be said that Fed was created primarily to benefit the bankers, it was NOT, it was created primarily to benefit the government & anyone who's willing to learn & research facts, can clearly see for themselves that government has been & is the largest beneficiary of Fed's money-creation, not banks.

But again, if some people are immune to facts & reason, & instead like to revel in fancy conspiracy-theories then there's not much that can be done to help them!

There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
- Milton Friedman

You've done no such thing. You've made no new points in... maybe, 5-6 pages. You're just rehashing old points that I've already addressed, going in circles and adding personal attacks.

It's a waste of time.

Your intellectual dishonesty is appalling!

To the contrary, I've refuted each and every one of the baseless arguments you conspiracy-theorists make :

1) That government "pays" interest to Fed on the money Fed creates to buy government-debt - WRONG, Fed not only hands over the interest government has "paid" but much more than that BACK to the government.
Once the above is debunked you people say -
2) Banks created & support Fed because of the money they make thru PD system - WRONG, PD system will likely continue to exists whether Fed exists or not because it will continue to help Treasury maximize its revenue from debt.
When the above was debunked you say -
3) Look at all the bad assets Fed bought from banks, that's how they benefit from Fed - WRONG, because Fed was created in 1913 & until the 2008 crisis, Fed had never bought bad assets from banks in a way that would benefit them & it would be childish to think that banks created Fed in 1913 & waited nearly a century to extract monetary benefit out of the system.
And even the whatever was bought in 2008 was to prevent banking collapse which government fears very much as well as to try to keep the housing-bubble afloat & to re-inflate it.

I've explained in detail the enormous monetary benefit the government rakes in due to Fed but because you're blinded by conspiracy-theories about banking, you conveniently ignore facts & reason.

My original contention in this thread was against your belief that all the money-creation Fed engages in benefits the banks & I've explained why it is NOT the case, & anyone who's willing to check facts will find that to be true, & will also realize that it's the government that extracts enormous monetary benefit from the economy thru Federal Reserve System.

Originally Posted by The Free Hornet

Another factor might be productivity. Instead of enjoying lower costs, any benefit from productivty is inflated away. We might make and distribute bread 10% more efficiently over a period of time, but inflation can wipe that out and result in a "modest" 5% price increase. The actual price increase, if adjusted for inflation, would be higher - like 15%.

Originally Posted by bxm042

Indeed, and that extra 10% goes directly into the pockets of the bankers.

Really, it's many different things holding back the inflation (temporarily). All of these factors together are working to fuck us in the ass.

Last edited by Paul Or Nothing II; 11-06-2012 at 03:49 AM.

There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
- Milton Friedman

3) Look at all the bad assets Fed bought from banks, that's how they benefit from Fed - WRONG, because Fed was created in 1913 & until the 2008 crisis, Fed had never bought bad assets from banks in a way that would benefit them & it would be childish to think that banks created Fed in 1913 & waited nearly a century to extract monetary benefit out of the system.

Bad assets or not, they still profit from the Fed. I've already explained this several times, it's simple supply and demand. The Fed buys products at a price that noone else is willing and able to buy at that time. Focusing on just the "bad assets" instead of just "assets" is just one of the countless strawmen you like to use.

The other arguments in your post is just more red herrings. As usual. I fully expect you to write another novel in response to this full with more strawmen and red herrings.

For example..

1) That government "pays" interest to Fed on the money Fed creates to buy government-debt - WRONG, Fed not only hands over the interest government has "paid" but much more than that BACK to the government.

I never made this claim, yet you seem to be implying I did. You're also implying that I didn't already know this. That's your game, here. Keep telling people that they just don't understand, that they don't know how the Fed works. Not sure what logical fallacy that is, but I'm sure there's a name for it

Last edited by bxm042; 11-06-2012 at 10:24 AM.

It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.

Bad assets or not, they still profit from the Fed. I've already explained this several times, it's simple supply and demand. The Fed buys products at a price that noone else is willing and able to buy at that time. Focusing on just the "bad assets" instead of just "assets" is just one of the countless strawmen you like to use.

The other arguments in your post is just more red herrings. As usual. I fully expect you to write another novel in response to this full with more strawmen and red herrings.

Interesting new conspiracy-theory! Could you specify what these "assets" are that you're referring Fed always buys to benefit banks? Oh no, that would be too difficult, would it?

As I've said, you or anyone else can go through the history of what Fed has bought & facts will bear themselves out that before 2008 crisis, Fed didn't engage in buying up "assets that noone else is willing to buy" in a way that would bring in significant monetary benefit that could be correlated to inflation.

But again, you have nothing to do with facts & reason so I fully expect another nonsense response pretending that the conspiracy-theories you believe in are true even though facts & reason say something totally different!

P.S. You say I focus on "bad assets" while it seems you wish I'd focus on "assets noone else is willing to buy" but here's the thing, assets that noone wants to buy (at a high price anyway) are what people call bad assets but again, logic isn't something that can be expected from conspiracy-theorists! Oh no!

There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
- Milton Friedman

Interesting new conspiracy-theory! Could you specify what these "assets" are that you're referring Fed always buys to benefit banks? Oh no, that would be too difficult, would it?

As I've said, you or anyone else can go through the history of what Fed has bought & facts will bear themselves out that before 2008 crisis, Fed didn't engage in buying up "assets that noone else is willing to buy" in a way that would bring in significant monetary benefit that could be correlated to inflation.

But again, you have nothing to do with facts & reason so I fully expect another nonsense response pretending that the conspiracy-theories you believe in are true even though facts & reason say something totally different!

P.S. You say I focus on "bad assets" while it seems you wish I'd focus on "assets noone else is willing to buy" but here's the thing, assets that noone wants to buy (at a high price anyway) are what people call bad assets but again, logic isn't something that can be expected from conspiracy-theorists! Oh no!

It's basic economics. You should know this.

10 people attend an art auction. 1 of them, named Bernie, is a counterfeiter, who's job is to buy paintings. 1 of them, named Joe, really, really likes Botticelli.

A Botticelli piece goes up for bid. Joe is willing to pay up to $600,000 for the piece. The other 8 people are willing to pay only $200,000 for the piece.

Without the counterfeiter, Joe would win the auction at $201,000. With the counterfeiter, Bernie would win the auction at $601,000.

That's an extra $400,000 in the pocket for anyone who sold that Botticelli.

I think it's hilarious that you call this basic economic principle of supply and demand a "conspiracy theory."

You also have zero evidence that there is no significant monetary benefit from this process. All (well, nearly all) money enters the system through this process, and considering the amount of money in circulation, it's very foolish to say it's not a factor. The recent years have only reinforced this, by providing solid evidence of a correlation between money printed and banker profits. This has been going on for a very, very long time. The only difference is now, it is ridiculously obvious.

Originally Posted by Paul Or Nothing II

Interesting new conspiracy-theory!

New? I posted this like 20 pages ago. This is solid proof they make more money with the Fed than without it, but you have repeatedly stated they do not. The Law of Supply and Demand obviously disagrees with you... but I guess that's just a conspiracy theory, right?

Law of Supply and demand = Conspiracy theory.... you crack me up, man.

Last edited by bxm042; 11-06-2012 at 11:10 AM.

It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.

Bad assets or not, they still profit from the Fed. I've already explained this several times, it's simple supply and demand. The Fed buys products at a price that noone else is willing and able to buy at that time. Focusing on just the "bad assets" instead of just "assets" is just one of the countless strawmen you like to use.

The Fed purchases their assets via a competitive bidding process. They say how much they want to buy (say $10 million in US Treasuries) and dealers make offers of how much each of them are willing to sell and what prices they will be willing to sell them at. The price is the lowest one which allows the Fed to buy all the securities they are after.

The Fed purchases their assets via a competitive bidding process. They say how much they want to buy (say $10 million in US Treasuries) and dealers make offers of how much each of them are willing to sell and what prices they will be willing to sell them at. The price is the lowest one which allows the Fed to buy all the securities they are after.

See previous post, Zippy. When a counterfeiter enters a market (regardless of how "competitive" it is), everyone who engages in trades with the counterfeiter benefits monetarily. It's basic economics.

Even indirect trades benefit. The closer you are to the counterfeiter, the more you will gain through their theft.

Last edited by bxm042; 11-06-2012 at 11:25 AM.

It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.

10 people attend an art auction. 1 of them, named Bernie, is a counterfeiter, who's job is to buy paintings. 1 of them, named Joe, really, really likes Botticelli.

A Botticelli piece goes up for bid. Joe is willing to pay up to $600,000 for the piece. The other 8 people are willing to pay only $200,000 for the piece.

Without the counterfeiter, Joe would win the auction at $201,000. With the counterfeiter, Bernie would win the auction at $601,000.

That's an extra $400,000 in the pocket for anyone who sold that Botticelli.

I think it's hilarious that you call this basic economic principle of supply and demand a "conspiracy theory."

You also have zero evidence that there is no significant monetary benefit from this process. All (well, nearly all) money enters the system through this process, and considering the amount of money in circulation, it's very foolish to say it's not a factor. The recent years have only reinforced this, by providing solid evidence of a correlation between money printed and banker profits. This has been going on for a very, very long time. The only difference is now, it is ridiculously obvious.

New? I posted this like 20 pages ago. This is solid proof they make more money with the Fed than without it, but you have repeatedly stated they do not. The Law of Supply and Demand obviously disagrees with you... but I guess that's just a conspiracy theory, right?

Law of Supply and demand = Conspiracy theory.... you crack me up, man.

Although conspiracy-theorists are completely capable of claiming that Fed buys paintings from banks, I'll take a chance & assume that this is some obscure reference to Fed buying Treasuries from PDs, which begs the question why one wouldn't offer an example with Treasuries but then what do I know, I not big on conspiracy-theories so....

Anyways, do you have any idea as to how Fed buys Treasuries from PDs? Clearly not! All the PDs quote their best possible prices to Fed & then Fed chooses to buy LOWEST priced ones so PDs don't just quote any price because there is competition amongst PDs to sell & quoting too high means the other guy sells his & you don't.

And the prices they quote are correlated to the market-prices of Treasuries because Fed isn't the only entity they sell to so selling too far above the market-price is out of the question & if you do then the other PD will undercut you because as I've said before, PDs are market-makers & market-makers are in the business of continuously buying/selling an instrument for tiny profits, that's how market-making works but clearly you wouldn't know any of that!

P.S. I didn't say that you personally said that Fed charges interest to government, all I've said that many conspiracy-theorists do make those senseless arguments without checking facts, but again your reading-comprehension isn't very strong so.....

There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
- Milton Friedman

Although conspiracy-theorists are completely capable of claiming that Fed buys paintings from banks, I'll take a chance & assume that this is some obscure reference to Fed buying Treasuries from PDs, which begs the question why one wouldn't offer an example with Treasuries but then what do I know, I not big on conspiracy-theories so....

Anyways, do you have any idea as to how Fed buys Treasuries from PDs? Clearly not! All the PDs quote their best possible prices to Fed & then Fed chooses to buy LOWEST priced ones so PDs don't just quote any price because there is competition amongst PDs to sell & quoting too high means the other guy sells his & you don't.

The mechanics of the trade doesn't matter. Which is why I used a simplified example. This is just yet another red herring of yours. See below:

Originally Posted by bxm042

When a counterfeiter enters a market (regardless of how "competitive" it is), everyone who engages in trades with the counterfeiter benefits monetarily. It's basic economics.

Originally Posted by Travlyr

And everyone else loses.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that because the Fed buys the lowest bid it invalidates this extremely basic economic principle outlined above?

And the prices they quote are correlated to the market-prices of Treasuries because Fed isn't the only entity they sell to so selling too far above the market-price is out of the question & if you do then the other PD will undercut you because as I've said before, PDs are market-makers & market-makers are in the business of continuously buying/selling an instrument for tiny profits, that's how market-making works but clearly you wouldn't know any of that!

You keep repeating this as if it's some kind of secret. Everyone and their mother understood this by page 4 of this thread. Give it a rest, already, for fucks sake.

Besides, the PD's are simply an intermediary. The profits earned due to printed money don't occur in just a single transaction. The PD's earn a little profit by trading with the Fed. The bankers earn a little profit by trading with the PD's. The assets and money changes hands between bankers, PD's, and the Fed, very often so all those "little profits" add up to a lot.

In fact, the amount of profits gained through those transactions can actually be calculated, with just a little analysis.

The monetary base as of 2011 is $2,150,000,000,000. That means the Fed, since its creation, has bought more than $2 trillion dollars worth of assets.

According to their Oct 31 2012 balance sheet, their current Assets-Liabilities = $54,760,000,000. That means they have bought $2 trillion dollars worth of assets, and only have $54 billion dollars to show for it. (There may be some mitigating factors in their balance sheet that changes these numbers, but my point is there is a concrete number that can be calculated.)

The Fed's $2 trillion loss over these 100 years is someone else's profit that obviously went somewhere. I can see only two possible recipients of that profit. 1) The bankers. 2) Military industrial complex, government contractors, hospitals, etc, and any other recipient of government funds. (Both groups 1) and 2) profit from the Fed)

That's $2,096,000,000,000 that just went "poof." You would have me believe that this free money (it is what it is), went to the bankers, and they didn't take any cut of this pie, and simply gave it all to the government without making any profit.

However, with some time and research, we could actually determine how much of this cut the bankers took using just a bit of subtraction. The only two possible recipients of these profits are the bankers and government spendee's. With the treasury data available, we should be able to determine precisely how much of that $2 trillion profit was distributed by the government

From there, we could determine how much the bankers have profited by simply subtracting the M0-normalized government spending from $2.15 trillion, and then multiplying it by M2/M0 to achieve the final result.

It would take some work and careful fact checking, but I think it can be done. And I do believe you would be surprised by the result. Taking into account FRB, it would quickly get quite substantial.

If you're interested, this would be an interesting project, and considering that you're a banker apologist, I'm sure you'd be more than happy to catch my errors in the process.

P.S. I didn't say that you personally said that Fed charges interest to government, all I've said that many conspiracy-theorists do make those senseless arguments without checking facts, but again your reading-comprehension isn't very strong so.....

I said you implied it. Which you did. Your exact words were "you people." Which a) is an assholish thing to say begin with. and b) I never said anything of that kind, so you throwing me in that group makes you a liar. Your purpose with that statement was obviously to try to discredit me. It's dishonest, and rather than own up to your mistake (or intentional lie?) you double down with more personal attacks.

Last edited by bxm042; 11-06-2012 at 05:42 PM.

It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.

The mechanics of the trade doesn't matter. Which is why I used a simplified example. This is just yet another red herring of yours. See below:

Are you seriously trying to tell me that because the Fed buys the lowest bid it invalidates this extremely basic economic principle outlined above?

You keep repeating this as if it's some kind of secret. Everyone and their mother understood this by page 4 of this thread. Give it a rest, already, for fucks sake.

Besides, the PD's are simply an intermediary. The profits earned due to printed money don't occur in just a single transaction. The PD's earn a little profit by trading with the Fed. The bankers earn a little profit by trading with the PD's. The assets and money changes hands between bankers, PD's, and the Fed, very often so all those "little profits" add up to a lot.

In fact, the amount of profits gained through those transactions can actually be calculated, with just a little analysis.

The monetary base as of 2011 is $2,150,000,000,000. That means the Fed, since its creation, has bought more than $2 trillion dollars worth of assets.

According to their Oct 31 2012 balance sheet, their current Assets-Liabilities = $54,760,000,000. That means they have bought $2 trillion dollars worth of assets, and only have $54 billion dollars to show for it. (There may be some mitigating factors in their balance sheet that changes these numbers, but my point is there is a concrete number that can be calculated.)

That's $2 trillion straight profit. I can see only two possible recipients of that profit. 1) The bankers. 2) Military industrial complex, government contractors, hospitals, etc, and any other recipient of government funds. (Both groups 1) and 2) profit from the Fed)

That's $2,096,000,000,000 that just went "poof." You would have me believe that this free money (it is what it is), went to the bankers, and they didn't take any cut of this pie, and simply gave it all to the government without making any profit.

However, with some time and research, we could actually determine how much of this cut the bankers took using just a bit of subtraction. The only two possible recipients of these profits are the bankers and government spendee's. With the treasury data available, we should be able to determine precisely how much of that $2 trillion profit was distributed by the government

From there, we could determine how much the bankers have profited by simply subtracting the M0-normalized government spending from $2.15 trillion, and then multiplying it by M2/M0 to achieve the final result.

It would take some work and careful fact checking, but I think it can be done. And I do believe you would be surprised by the result. Taking into account FRB, it would quickly get quite substantial.

If you're interested, this would be an interesting project, and considering that you're a banker apologist, I'm sure you'd be more than happy to catch my errors in the process.

I said you implied it. Which you did. Your exact words were "you people." Which a) is an assholish thing to say begin with. and b) I never said anything of that kind, so you throwing me in that group makes you a liar. Your purpose with that statement was obviously to try to discredit me. It's dishonest, and rather than own up to your mistake (or intentional lie?) you double down with more personal attacks.

Lolz... let me make a prediction. Which I am not all that good at predictions, but I'll make an exemption here. Paul or Nothing II will once again call you a crazy conspiracy-theorist which has nothing to do with your argument, but he, as the dumbass he is, will attempt to claim that the Fed is a good counterfeiter... not a bad counterfeiter. They mean well... and they wish you well while stealing your wealth.

Lolz... let me make a prediction. Which I am not all that good at predictions, but I'll make an exemption here. Paul or Nothing II will once again call you a crazy conspiracy-theorist which has nothing to do with your argument, but he, as the dumbass he is, will attempt to claim that the Fed is a good counterfeiter... not a bad counterfeiter. They mean well... and they wish you well while stealing your wealth.

I think you'd win that wager

It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.

If I am in the business of loaning out other people's money as well as my own, I can certainly profit from that. That will be limited to what I and my lending customers can accumulate, of course, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. If I have a counterfeiter as a continual supplier, however, there is no question but that I am going to profit far more than if I did not have such a supplier.

The Fed is not the primary profiteer in any of this. As Ron Paul has stated repeatedly, the Fed is merely a facilitator. The artificial monetary expansion that the Fed facilitates on the warfare/welfare deficit spending government side is a drop in the economic bucket compared to what it facilitates on the inflationary, exponentially expanding monetary base and aggregate credit expansion side--with no aggregate contraction ever--on the commercial lending side.

Obfuscation begins as focus is divided, then concentrated on one part only, as if it represented the whole. In addition to the Treasury causing inflation through deficit spending, the Treasury also certainly profits from all of the Fed's commercial counterfeiting activities, since the Fed turns over all its profits, minus a small dividend paid out to member banks for their capital investment. But that is not even close to the whole of what is happening here.

Profits (interest paid) to the Fed from all the counterfeiting represents only the Treasury's cut (once it is turned over to it). Commercial banks have a different cut on those same counterfeiting operations. They aren't turning over the interest they charged over and above what the Fed charged. Profits from that interest, less whatever taxes the commercial banks do pay (read=practically zero), is entire theirs to keep.

And that's where confusion and obfuscation further ensues.

The fact that commercial banks are dealing in counterfeit funds in the first place is dismissed entirely, or quickly forgotten. The focus, by banking apologists, shifts instead to the "services" provided by banks. As the reasoning goes, "Banks can't be expected to lend counterfeit money, er, provide their services for free, can they?" Which completely ignores the fact that they are not profiting from services provided.

Banks aren't wiping people's asses, mowing their lawns or doing their windows for them. Even if they were, that is not what they are charging for. What they are providing is not a service, but rather access to counterfeited currency, a monetary good, at a profit. Even if the banks took ZERO profit, the currency would still be no less counterfeit, no less inflationary in the aggregate, so long as the pool of credit is exponentially ever-expanding, never contracting in the aggregate. But the banks are not taking zero profit. They do take a profit from all of this--enormous profits in the aggregate that make all the Treasury's combined profits absolutely pale in comparison. And all for the privilege of providing, not a service, but a counterfeit currency that perpetually and continuously dilutes all other currency in existence.

The mechanics of the trade doesn't matter. Which is why I used a simplified example. This is just yet another red herring of yours. See below:

Originally Posted by bxm042

See previous post, Zippy. When a counterfeiter enters a market (regardless of how "competitive" it is), everyone who engages in trades with the counterfeiter benefits monetarily. It's basic economics.

Even indirect trades benefit. The closer you are to the counterfeiter, the more you will gain through their theft.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that because the Fed buys the lowest bid it invalidates this extremely basic economic principle outlined above?

No, it's not "basic economics". Ok, let's say there's a guy who can produce replicas of Fed's notes, he buys a machine from you, sure, you may make a profit from the sale but had that person not existed at all, you'd have sold it to somebody else & made that profit!

Accordingly, as I've said, PDs would be profitable whether Fed existed or not, they'd just be buying/selling from/to other market-participants.

Here's basic economics. Do you know what monopsony is? I don't think so but it's the opposite of monopoly where there's one buyer & many sellers, that's pretty much the situation Fed is in where 21 PDs are underbidding each other which would naturally lead to Fed getting the lowest price possible on the market. Saying that the price paid by Fed is significantly higher than the market-price is childish.

Originally Posted by bxm042

Besides, the PD's are simply an intermediary. The profits earned due to printed money don't occur in just a single transaction. The PD's earn a little profit by trading with the Fed. The bankers earn a little profit by trading with the PD's. The assets and money changes hands between bankers, PD's, and the Fed, very often so all those "little profits" add up to a lot.

Oh, the good ol' communist rhetoric - if somebody is profitting then it must be at everyone else's expense!
Well, the only way your hypothesis could be taken seriously is if Fed was the net-loser in its buying/selling activities but as it turns out, one of the components of Fed's profits is the profit they make through buying/selling, which then of course is handed over to the Treasury.

Originally Posted by bxm042

The Fed's $2 trillion loss over these 100 years is someone else's profit that obviously went somewhere.

If you didn't notice, there's actually an asset-side there somewhere so it's not technically "loss" but of course, that asset-side until recently largely consisted of Treasuries, which means Treasury creates IOUs & Fed creates new money to buy them so essentially, all those IOUs that Fed has are like free money given by Fed to the government.

On top of that if you add up the profit that Fed regularly has been handing over to Treasury over the years, then that in itself would run into trillions as well.

Originally Posted by bxm042

That's $2,096,000,000,000 that just went "poof." You would have me believe that this free money (it is what it is), went to the bankers, and they didn't take any cut of this pie, and simply gave it all to the government without making any profit.

No, it didn't go "poof", most of that went to the Treasury.
Again, here's how it works, just like any market-maker PDs usually hold some stock of Treasuries which they have bought with THEIR OWN money, now, Fed buys some & pays PDs with newly created money, PDs go & buy Treasuries with new money to replenish their stock of Treasuries, now, Treasury has new money & from there it enters the economy when they pay government-employees or war-contractors or give welfare or whatever, that pushes up demand & prices for goods/services/labor & so on across the economy.
Not to mention, it pushes up demand & value of Treasuries themselves & drives down interest on Treasuries, both of which help government in sustaining itself financially, without Fed being there to buy & increase demand for Treasuries, the value of Treasuries would fall as more & more of them are issued & interest would go up & at some point, interest on Treasuries itself would be high enough to consume all of the government revenue!
Anyways, point is that Treasury received all that money essentially for free INDIRECTLY from Fed, they don't need to pay it back because Fed is just another arm of the government & they essentially don't pay any interest on it.

Is it possible that a little bit of PDs profits constitutes inflation? Sure. But miniscule compared to the amount of monetary benefit government has been extracting out of the economy for a long time thru Fed-generated inflation.

Again, my original contention was to the following assertion of yours that bankers are the beneficiaries of all the inflation that occurs, which is just childish when one considers facts.

Originally Posted by The Free Hornet

Another factor might be productivity. Instead of enjoying lower costs, any benefit from productivty is inflated away. We might make and distribute bread 10% more efficiently over a period of time, but inflation can wipe that out and result in a "modest" 5% price increase. The actual price increase, if adjusted for inflation, would be higher - like 15%.

Originally Posted by bxm042

Indeed, and that extra 10% goes directly into the pockets of the bankers.

Really, it's many different things holding back the inflation (temporarily). All of these factors together are working to fuck us in the ass.

Last edited by Paul Or Nothing II; 11-07-2012 at 05:55 AM.

There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
- Milton Friedman

I said you implied it. Which you did. Your exact words were "you people." Which a) is an assholish thing to say begin with. and b) I never said anything of that kind, so you throwing me in that group makes you a liar. Your purpose with that statement was obviously to try to discredit me. It's dishonest, and rather than own up to your mistake (or intentional lie?) you double down with more personal attacks.

Whether I implied this or that is a matter of speculation on your part........but then conspiracy-theorists like wildly speculating about things without facts so......

Anyways, let's see what follows "you people" -

Originally Posted by Paul Or Nothing II

Once the above is debunked you people say -
2) Banks created & support Fed because of the money they make thru PD system - WRONG, PD system will likely continue to exists whether Fed exists or not because it will continue to help Treasury maximize its revenue from debt.

Ooh, surprisingly it says exactly what you have been claiming

Once again, pathetic reading-skills....

Last edited by Paul Or Nothing II; 11-09-2012 at 01:55 AM.

There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
- Milton Friedman

When a counterfeiter enters a market (regardless of how "competitive" it is), everyone who engages in trades with the counterfeiter benefits monetarily. It's basic economics.

Originally Posted by Paul Or Nothing II

No, it's not "basic economics".

You are again proving you are a waste of my time. If you can't understand this basic economic principle, then you are either economically brain-damaged, or you're simply a shill for the bankers. Take your pick.

In either case, whatever it is you have to say in the rest of your post has no value and it's not worth my time to read it.

Originally Posted by Paul Or Nothing II

Whether I implied this or that is a matter of speculation on your part........but then conspiracy-theorists like wildly speculating about things without facts so......

Anyways, let's see what follows "you people" -

You tried to discredit me through your lies. I called you on it. You double down with personal attacks. Again.

Ooh, surprisingly it says exactly what you have been claiming

Once again, pathetic reading-skills....

You are again proving your dishonesty. Welcome to ignore PON II.

It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.

The mechanics of the trade doesn't matter. Which is why I used a simplified example. This is just yet another red herring of yours. See below:

Are you seriously trying to tell me that because the Fed buys the lowest bid it invalidates this extremely basic economic principle outlined above?

You keep repeating this as if it's some kind of secret. Everyone and their mother understood this by page 4 of this thread. Give it a rest, already, for fucks sake.

Besides, the PD's are simply an intermediary. The profits earned due to printed money don't occur in just a single transaction. The PD's earn a little profit by trading with the Fed. The bankers earn a little profit by trading with the PD's. The assets and money changes hands between bankers, PD's, and the Fed, very often so all those "little profits" add up to a lot.

In fact, the amount of profits gained through those transactions can actually be calculated, with just a little analysis.

The monetary base as of 2011 is $2,150,000,000,000. That means the Fed, since its creation, has bought more than $2 trillion dollars worth of assets.

According to their Oct 31 2012 balance sheet, their current Assets-Liabilities = $54,760,000,000. That means they have bought $2 trillion dollars worth of assets, and only have $54 billion dollars to show for it. (There may be some mitigating factors in their balance sheet that changes these numbers, but my point is there is a concrete number that can be calculated.)

The Fed's $2 trillion loss over these 100 years is someone else's profit that obviously went somewhere. I can see only two possible recipients of that profit. 1) The bankers. 2) Military industrial complex, government contractors, hospitals, etc, and any other recipient of government funds. (Both groups 1) and 2) profit from the Fed)

That's $2,096,000,000,000 that just went "poof." You would have me believe that this free money (it is what it is), went to the bankers, and they didn't take any cut of this pie, and simply gave it all to the government without making any profit.

However, with some time and research, we could actually determine how much of this cut the bankers took using just a bit of subtraction. The only two possible recipients of these profits are the bankers and government spendee's. With the treasury data available, we should be able to determine precisely how much of that $2 trillion profit was distributed by the government

From there, we could determine how much the bankers have profited by simply subtracting the M0-normalized government spending from $2.15 trillion, and then multiplying it by M2/M0 to achieve the final result.

It would take some work and careful fact checking, but I think it can be done. And I do believe you would be surprised by the result. Taking into account FRB, it would quickly get quite substantial.

If you're interested, this would be an interesting project, and considering that you're a banker apologist, I'm sure you'd be more than happy to catch my errors in the process.

I am having troubles trying to follow your numbers here. You seem to be trying to claim that the entire montary base is all profits and that the Federal Reserve only has $54 billion? That the rest of their assets have gone "poof?" It is true that the base comes from Fed purchases but they still own those purchases- they didn't go "poof".

If I buy a US Treasury note for $10,000- I have given the seller of that note $10,000. Their profit is not the entire $10,000. The profit is the difference between what they paid for the note and what I paid them. Given that the yield on US Treasury notes of five years or less have a yield of less than one percent, that isn't much gap. The Primary Dealers have an option of what to do with US Treasuries they own. Three actually. One- they can keep them until they mature and collect the yield from the US Treasury. Two- they can sell whatever the amount the Fed wants to buy to the Federal Reserve. Or they can sell them to somebody else. They are going to do whatever will give them the best return.

The "Vanishing assets" the Fed purchased? According to their latest report http://www.federalreserve.gov/releas...urrent/h41.htm the Federal Reserve holds $2.5 trillion in total securities with $1.65 trillion of those being US Treasury notes. I cannot see where you are getting a $54 billion figure from.

Profits? The Federal Reserve returns all profits (minus their expenses) to the Treasury. They did not lose $2 trillion but instead earned some $80 billion and turned $77 billion over to the US Treasury. Last year the amount was even higher. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/11/bu...-treasury.html

Fed Turns Over $77 Billion in Profits to the Treasury

By BINYAMIN APPELBAUM

Published: January 10, 2012

WASHINGTON — The Federal Reserve said on Tuesday that it contributed $76.9 billion in profits to the Treasury Department last year, slightly less than its record 2010 transfer but much more than in any other previous year.

The Fed is required by law to turn over its profits to the Treasury each year, a highly lucrative byproduct of the central bank’s continuing campaign to stimulate economic growth.

Almost 97 percent of the Fed’s income was generated by interest payments on its investment portfolio, including $2.5 trillion in Treasury securities and mortgage-backed securities, which it has amassed in an effort to decrease borrowing costs for businesses and consumers by reducing long-term interest rates.

Through those purchases, the central bank has become the largest single investor in federal debt and securities issued by the government-owned mortgage finance companies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. As a consequence, most of the money flowing into the Fed’s coffers comes from taxpayers.

But Fed officials note that this cycle — payments flowing from Treasury to the Fed and then back to the Treasury — still saves money for taxpayers because those interest payments otherwise would be made to other investors.