The original diet, and the one Reinhard speaks about in the podcasts and such, looks like this;

No Snacks, No Sweets, No Seconds, Except (sometimes) on days that start with 'S'

Whereas the book reads;

No Snacks, No Sweets, No Seconds, Except on days that start with 'S'

So what happened to the Sometimes? I thought it was a useful extra wrinkle, and helpful for s-days. But now we have two creeds. Religious war will errupt between us. There will be a sometimesian sect, and an alwaysian sect, and darkness shall be upon the land! ... um. Yeah.

Reinhard -- did you try to dumb down a 14-word diet for popular appeal?

Last edited by stevecooper on Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

That's interesting. I didn't realize there had been a *sometimes* in there. I like that, though. I re-committed this past Friday - right before the weekend S days. And on Sunday, for whatever reason, I didn't feel like having any sweets, snacks or seconds. I almost felt guilty for skipping them! I think the whole point of having S days is to prevent binging or feeling deprived on the N days - and so that this can be a forever way of eating. I don't think the point of S days is to force anyone to eat something they don't feel like...._________________2poodles

SOMETIMES Crusaders, now is the time to RISE UP! To all those who believe in the Alwaysian mantras - you are all blasphemers and heretics! There is only one true and living NoS, and it states "except (sometimes) on days that start with 'S'.
Sometimesians, we must unite to fight the infidels! Alwaysians are infiltrating our churches, our synagogues, our schools, our convenience stores and our sweet shops. They are rebels and troublemakers set on ruining society as we know it.
2poodles, don't give in to the power of "always"! You can resist it! Sometimesians will welcome you with open arms (sometimes)._________________-Sometimes Fundamentalist and self-appointed King of the S-day Moderates
"As it is (sometimes) written, so let it (sometimes) be done."

SOMETIMES Crusaders, now is the time to RISE UP! To all those who believe in the Alwaysian mantras - you are all blasphemers and heretics! There is only one true and living NoS, and it states "except (sometimes) on days that start with 'S'.
Sometimesians, we must unite to fight the infidels! Alwaysians are infiltrating our churches, our synagogues, our schools, our convenience stores and our sweet shops. They are rebels and troublemakers set on ruining society as we know it.
2poodles, don't give in to the power of "always"! You can resist it! Sometimesians will welcome you with open arms (sometimes).

Filthy Sometimesian, with your irresolute 'creed,' never able to make up your mind!

Brothers! Sisters! Plant feet firmly on the ground and say "Lo it is Saturday, the day of Saturn, which is round and yellow and red, like unto a pizza, that I may feast upon it. And on sunday also, which is named for the sun, golden and round like unto a danish. But lo, on the coming of Monday, I shall look to the moon, which is like unto a dinner plate, which is a sign to us that we should sew up our gobs, except thrice daily, and no more." Yea, so it is written in the Great Book, on page 72 (page 122 in the large print edition.)

Misguided Alwaysians, hear me! Know ye not that this rebellion can lead you to only one destiny? Do ye not see the error of your ways? You would follow those leaders of Always into the mists of darkness and bloating and the endless need for antacids. But lo, I admonish thee, to emerge on the opposing shores of this dark mist is to spend eternity on the shores of low-carb land, from which your redemption is an unsure path!
Forsake your gluttonous, slothful ways. Repent and rejoin the true flock. Follow the Sometimes creed and find eternal joy.
Wo unto the Alwaysians, for they shall be thrust down into weight loss meetings!_________________-Sometimes Fundamentalist and self-appointed King of the S-day Moderates
"As it is (sometimes) written, so let it (sometimes) be done."

has the Grand Poobah lost his way? Do we need to burn Reinhart in the cleansing flame for his deviation from the True Way?

I think there's gonna be a burnin'.

OOoooh! I know, let's have an inquisition!

We'll raid all of the buffets and round them up when they come back for seconds. _________________-Sometimes Fundamentalist and self-appointed King of the S-day Moderates
"As it is (sometimes) written, so let it (sometimes) be done."

First off, before anyone gets burned at the stake, let it be known that, as far as I'm concerned, both the 13 and 14 word versions are "canonical." The "sometimes" is always there -- it's just implicit in the shorter version. We're all Sometimesians, just explicit or implicit ones. Think of it sort of like the different versions of the Lord's prayer in Luke and Matthew.

Why on earth did I change this?

Well, for one thing, the 13 word version actually preceded the book. It's not a complete innovation. It's been kicking around the website in a number of places for ages -- like the main page of this bulletin board. Like in the listing for the no s diet in the yahoo directory. I'm not sure if this was intentional, I (and they) probably just forgot it --- but that's sort of the point. It's the easiest to forget word, and what really changes if you leave it out?

Don't get me wrong, I agonized a great deal over that "sometimes." But ultimately the arguments against it carried the day -- at least for the book. I didn't want to change anything under the feet of existing website-inspired nosdieters (I just greyed out the sometimes on the homepage to subtly suggest its ambiguous status).

1. 13 words may be shorter than 14, but it's sort of a creepy number. Not that I'm superstitious about such things, but it makes it harder to emphasize the brevity of the diet by quoting the word count because, well, 13 just doesn't sound quite right, even though it's shorter. It's almost a matter of aesthetics. Also the number 14 has special everyday systems significance -- 14 minutes of schedualistically insignificant time, etc.

2. An extensive body of interpretive literature has build up around the "sometimes" around the years here on the bulletin board. Perhaps precisely because the word didn't clearly add anything in itself, it gave people an valuable opening for their own ideas. It seems like almost every week someone posts a new midrash on "sometimes."

3. While it may not be logically necessary, it can be a helpful reminder. If we were completely logical we wouldn't need this diet to begin with.

It was a pretty close call. But the shorter and fewer nays turned out to be more compelling, as far as the book was concerned. I do mention the "sometimes" version in the book, so book readers who never make it to the site still do have the opportunity to see if that extra reminder resonates with them.

Reinhard

P.S. I had originally intended to announce this change up front to the bulletin board, but I'm glad I waited: this was vastly more amusing -- thank you, Steve (et al.).

Last edited by reinhard on Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

I think the best reason for 13 words is probably typographical -- try to fit the word 'sometimes' onto the cover, and you'd have to shrink the font right down, and some of the visual impact would be lost. That's fewer sales and fewer people nosing.

Me, I like the sometimes because it makes it explicit to Mungo that constant snacking is bad, and that the weekends are for discrete culinary treats, not a 48-hour sucrathon.

The quote, I borrowed from The Ten Commandments (Thanks to Yul and Mr. DeMille)._________________-Sometimes Fundamentalist and self-appointed King of the S-day Moderates
"As it is (sometimes) written, so let it (sometimes) be done."

You know, funny you should mention it, because there are actually two versions of the ten commandments as well (one in Exodus, one in Deuteronomy) and although everyone seems to agree that there are ten, and what in sum, they are, there is some disagreement about their division:

I'm thinking now that the set of words *almost* form a couplet. There's a lot of poetic potential, with all the alliteration. I can't come up with anything metrical with the original, but did manage this in the attempt...

This thread put a smile on my face! In my quest to cast away the ways of the Alwaysians, I have found myself here just in time to prepare for my first three day weekend. Since I'm less than two weeks into this, I fear losing my footing, and falling back into my old ways of snacking mindlessly.

I am trying to learn the way of the Sometimesian, and crave more word of that creed.

Hillarious! It makes you think! I read it without the (sometimes) and I took it as a ticket to an S-travaganza weekend. I have been acting more like a native Usuallian.. not really a alwaysian and certainly not a sometimesian, which seams the best approach. I need to change my nationality, which may be hard since I come from a long line of alwaysSdaysians. _________________I guess this doesn't work unless you actually do it.
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Yeah, I love this thread too--and it directly relates to a lot of the issues that people have noted lately. The SOMETIMES was always a part of the "mantra" until the book was published. It still appears on the NO S home page and within that page is the original comment from Reinhard about not being an idiot.

Even the fridge magnets and coffee mugs have the SOMETIMES included on them.

For those who haven't checked out the No S Glossary page of one-liners and zingers that people have come up with, look at this thread:

I have reinstituted sometimes, meaning NEVER (with occasional exceptions), with great success the past two weekends. I don't feel out of control this way. Yay!_________________"Anyone can cook." ~ Chef Gusteau, Ratatouille

I'm an alwaysian at this point but I need to become a sometimesian. This past 3-day weekend was horrible. I was an allthetimesian. I was thinking this morning that my lack of control even kind of sapped me of my enthusiasm for no-S. But if I weren't on no-S, I'd be allthetiming even more!

Sorry to say this, but I am still struggling with the "sometimes" S days. Last Saturday, just 18 days into the diet I reverted to my pre-nos diet permagrazing - permasnacking ways. It actually scared me as in What was I thinking? I was better on Sunday and yesterday, Monday, I was back with the 3 moderate meals a day.

Thanks for the diet. It's keeping me in line and I think I have the habit down.

I certainly wouldn't stress right now about your S days lacking the sometimes label. If I'm reading your posts correctly, you've only been establishing your No S habits 19 days. . .as you will hear from many people probably, the first thing you need to do is to keep your N days green for a significant period of time and don't worry at all about the "quality" of your S days. . . Once you have your N days down really really well, THEN you can begin to concentrate a bit on the S days.

Certainly it may not mean a fast loss and you have to just trust the process and not worry about undoing any progress you have made during the week. The habits eventually kick in and you will find that your S days truly will level off naturally (I know--hard to believe, but I'm living proof).

I recall last July 4 moderation was not a part of my S day celebration! But this last weekend, I realized after that fact that I had not stuffed myself and was not miserable as we walked over to the fireworks! A very happy feeling indeed. I did have dessert and snacks and tiny seconds but it didn't appeal to me at all to be an idiot that day!

So take your time, let your habits take hold and hang in there! And welcome!_________________LA Loser. . . well on my way to becoming an LA Winner.

Thanks for the encouragement. Prior to the nos diet, I was on a very strict calorie counting diet. Miserable. I love the nos diet. I will focus on the nons days during the week and not worry about S days. I trust your words that the S days will even out eventually. I'ts a little like I'll believe it when I see it, but I have faith.

Yep--it's not like you won't occasionally go off the deep end. . . once you get those N days green for a long stretch of time, you may want to think about your S days in terms of keeping them similar to N days but allowing yourself dessert or appetizers, etc. without eating so much that you feel miserable afterwards.

But for now--just keep your green days green! Keep up the good work!_________________LA Loser. . . well on my way to becoming an LA Winner.

Thanks for your reply many months ago. I left the land of the NOS dieters. You read me exactly right. I kept to the diet for 19 days, almost 3 weeks. On weekends I didn't eat that much extra, maybe 800 calories, but that's just an estimate. Then it would take me most of the next week to undo the damage of the weekend. I just got frustrated and didn't really believe the system would work for me. Maybe I'll give it another try.

Aside from the humor, I think the reason it keeps getting bumped up is that it highlights a problem many of us face on No S: namely, weekends. Three months in for me, and I feel like my weekends can still be out of control. They are slowly getting better, however, as permasnacking has come to seem pretty alien to me. Doesn't mean I don't ever do it on S days , of course! It's just that I'm enjoying it less and regretting it more, which I hope will lead to S days that look a lot more like N days, with the occasional treat.

In the beginning it did help assuage my feelings of deprivation to know that weekends were just around the corner. I took comfort in the fact that I could eat anything and any time I wanted during S days. Maybe many of us start out as "Alwaysians" and slowly evolve into "Sometimesians"?

Maybe many of us start out as "Alwaysians" and slowly evolve into "Sometimesians"?

I'd bet this is the case.

The question I have to ask myself on S Days is: "Am I being an idiot if I eat/drink this?" And, if I am, in fact, being an idiot "Is it worth it?" Most of the time it isn't. I don't want to spend my whole week recovering from weekend excess and I don't like feeling sick or bloated on S Days. Sticking to the basic 3 meal structure and preplanning some special treats for S Days helps to keep "Sometimes" in check for me._________________Restarted No S (3rd times a charm!) January 2010 at 145 lbs

One of my recent "aha" moments is the realization that I have build very good N-day habits... but at the same time, I built some less-desirable S-day habits. They have gradually improved over time on their own. Still, I want to address them directly, but ve-ery gently, so that I don't trip back into "diet-head." (Too many years of dieting makes this a real concern for me.)

Two of the best decisions I've made thus far are (1) stick to the basic 3-meal structure on S-days and (2) PLAN ahead for a treat I'll really enjoy. Those strategies keep me from perma-snacking all day, allow me to enjoy my S-days without "paying" later in terms of discomfort/regret, and just feel good to me.

However, when I haven't planned ahead, I still find myself searching the kitchen for "a treat" and eating a series of things that really don't give me pleasure. I think your questions will address that scenario beautifully. An S-day treat is ALLOWED, but not REQUIRED.

I'm new to all this, no track record yet, but after the initial panic over "How will I endure from one meal to the next?" I moved on to coping and accepting the rules, finding comfort and safety in the structure. Then came a new sort of panic: "What will happen on the weekend when I have to decide what to eat?"

The S days are a problem, the "sometimes" bit doesn't seem to help because S days put ME back in charge of the decisions about food, the same ME who eat myself into trouble in the first place. I can't trust me yet.

I can handle the S days as freedom when to eat - but the idea of "I can eat anything I want" seems to trigger a wild hungry child who wants every sweet and buckets of fizzy lemonade, threatening to breach the control I have exerted over the past few years. I always got my "5 a day" and avoided all processed garbage pseudo-foods, except, say for the Christmas Holidays - when I seemed to gain about 1lb a day!

I am hoping, over time, that I too will return to the food sanity No S has brought to many here, and will find the sense in the S days.

(Just now I have this little problem - last Saturday I bought a whole load of sweets and snacks for the child within - and it's Wednesday and I know where they are...)

Oh! - just had a realisation - over all the years when I was a smoker, I think I was using cigarettes to stifle that same wild, hungry child. It seems like that was a problem I never actually solved - and here I am again, with a new chance: might I get it right this time?

The S days are a problem, the "sometimes" bit doesn't seem to help because S days put ME back in charge of the decisions about food, the same ME who eat myself into trouble in the first place. I can't trust me yet.

Well, I suggest you try something. Go ahead and let S-days be COMPLETELY off the hook at first -- say for a couple of months. Your first few WILL be a bit over the top. (Reinhard says as much in his book).

What often happens is that habit from N-days start bleeding over into your life. If you notice that happening, you're golden. If not, you can do something about it. But do try that FIRST.

You've got time. No-S is about lifetime habit, after all._________________------
My blog http://noelfigart.com/blog/ I talk about being a freelance writer, working out and cooking mostly. The language is not always drawing room fashion. Just sayin'.

"Well, I suggest you try something. Go ahead and let S-days be COMPLETELY off the hook at first -- say for a couple of months"

That is an interesting though somewhat worrying suggestion Noel. I assume you expect me to find balance without having to suppress myself, and I would like it if that were in fact the outcome - but how likely is it that it will turn out that way?

That got me wondering, as I trawl the archives of old postings - what's the drop-out rate with No S/this site? How many fall by the wayside? Not just general curiosity - I'm wondering about myself, of course.

No-one's saying you HAVE to do anything, of course (and even if they did, you don't have to listen, what with being a grown-up and all. Cool, huh?)

But the worst risk you'd be taking by trying Vanilla No-S (meaning three strict one-plate meals a day and weekends and holidays off the hook) is a SMALL weight gain if you go REALLY crazy.

I can say that my own CRAZIEST weekends have at worst caused me NOT to lose weight, but have never caused me a net gain over a four month period._________________------
My blog http://noelfigart.com/blog/ I talk about being a freelance writer, working out and cooking mostly. The language is not always drawing room fashion. Just sayin'.

On the perspective... I'd like to address that (knowing that mine won't necessarily be the same as Noel's, even though I agree with her advice...

After being here for 3 years or so, I think that there is a higher failure rate among people who try to modify out of the gate than those who just go with the plan as written. It's hard to quantify - most people quietly disapper, so counts are almost impossible - but I do believe that's true.

Why? Well, for people who've been on diets for much of their lives, the S-days are like safety valves. That's a metaphor worth examining... a place where a system "lets off steam" so that the whole thing doesn't blow up. If you apply too much pressure and "blow it," then it's easy to give up entirely.

From my own experience on habit-setting, I have always been more successful when I set my initial goals at a low level. (I call it the "doh!" level - the place where you think "of course I can do that!") If I set them too high in a burst of initial enthusiasm, they will crush me later when the enthusisasm dissipates. If I set the goals low, I can maintain them later... and then the "habit muscle" will develop and I can gradually raise the bar. Gradually. That's a key word. This is about habit-building that leads to sustainability, not quickie-weight loss (and probable re-gain).

And for many of us, there's an emotional component of eating. The part of our brains that is unamenable to reason needs to be reassured that "there is enough." Three regular meals a day and some treats on S-days will do that over time - but it's important to give it that time.

My very favorite podcast of all the ones that Reinhard has done is the one on "Strictness". Take a look.

Interesting points KCCC - I am wondering now - have I been on diets most of my life? I would say I haven't, yet, I do sort of have rules of my own.

I have followed UK government advice to eat five portions of fruit & vegetables a day, I use sweeteners instead of sugar - I try not to buy sweets/chocolate/biscuits/crisps - (I tend to gorge on them and then feel guilty when I do have them in the cupboard)

I definitely recognise emotion in my eating - and shame about it.

I will have to persist with No S to get a habit going - but I am pretty sure I shouldn't let even weekends be sugar-binge time - it doesn't feel safe to do that.

I'm glad this is a reminder. For us bingers, it is NOT a given that a sometimes is not needed. I have tried to institute mods for S days. None of them has stuck, but my S-ing is decreasing. I'm actually starting to imagine that I could be a sometimes-er at some point without it tripping the binge-wire._________________Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 7 years & counting
Age 63 SBMI Jan/10-30.8 Jan/12-26.8 Mar/13-24.9 Dec/15 24.8 held steady +/- 8-lb. for two years Mar/17 22.8

I read the book and listened to podcasts so I should have known better, but S Days became free eating binges for me. I forgot about the SOMETIMES. I know some people do not have this problem, but I had to make myself aware of what I was doing on S Days...actually eating enough to gain weight!! And I had perfect N Days for many 21 day cycles. The trouble was I could consume a lot of calories on 2 S Days, undo all my N Day success, and then add on more lbs. It was just like all diets I had been on and then regained what I lost. I just did it each weekend. And the S Days never settled down until I had to admit that EVERY BITE COUNTS.

This Saturday I enjoyed some macadamia nuts as a special expensive snack (calories and dollars) and today, Sunday, I enjoyed a little 85% dark Green and Black chocolate. That was a snack and a sweet and that is about all I can handle without turning loose the tiger.

I think "sometimes" is good and should be remembered. I still let S-days be off the hook.

Last week, I did a lot of snacking.

This week, I had no S events at all. (Though I did have a delicious wild salmon and asparagus dish at a local restaurant on Saturday. It WAS a treat to me, though would have been totally legal on an N-day). No deprivation. Just didn't want to have a sweet or snack just because I could. There are weeks I feel otherwise.

I guess that while keeping in mind "sometimes" as a guideline is good, I do think that depending on what you're focusing harder on, it may or may not be something you need to be incredibly strict about. I would say that if you're anxious about not losing weight fast enough, that giving that "Sometimes" a good, hard look is a good idea._________________------
My blog http://noelfigart.com/blog/ I talk about being a freelance writer, working out and cooking mostly. The language is not always drawing room fashion. Just sayin'.

It is so fun when old threads are revived! This one started in 2008, and has been revived a couple of times, so I can see some personal evolution over time.

An older post from page 1 of this thread that documents a personal turning point....

KCCC wrote:

Sophiasapienta, I like your questions!

One of my recent "aha" moments is the realization that I have build very good N-day habits... but at the same time, I built some less-desirable S-day habits. They have gradually improved over time on their own. Still, I want to address them directly, but ve-ery gently, so that I don't trip back into "diet-head." (Too many years of dieting makes this a real concern for me.)

Two of the best decisions I've made thus far are (1) stick to the basic 3-meal structure on S-days and (2) PLAN ahead for a treat I'll really enjoy. Those strategies keep me from perma-snacking all day, allow me to enjoy my S-days without "paying" later in terms of discomfort/regret, and just feel good to me.

However, when I haven't planned ahead, I still find myself searching the kitchen for "a treat" and eating a series of things that really don't give me pleasure. I think your questions will address that scenario beautifully. An S-day treat is ALLOWED, but not REQUIRED.

Oh wait... that sounds like Sometimesian doctrine.

For reference, here's Sophiasapienta's questions:

Quote:

The question I have to ask myself on S Days is: "Am I being an idiot if I eat/drink this?" And, if I am, in fact, being an idiot "Is it worth it?"

I noticed that little difference awhile ago, and wondered when someone would say something. this was a very entertaining read I have to say. In all honesty I will not lose weight and will actually gain if I have two "free days" maybe some can go wild and still lose, but I really have to do the sometimes.

The longer I've followed No-S, the less I take S-DAYS. In fact, I almost never take an S-day anymore. There are S-events and even they seem to be fewer and further between. The less often they occur, the more I seem to appreciate them. This hasn't been a conscious decision -- it just happened.

I rarely eat dessert when I go out to eat; usually it's not as good as it sounds. I bake and I'm doing that less often. I made cookies over the weekend. I made the dough, baked one sheet, dropped the rest of the dough on a cookie sheet and froze them. Once frozen, I took them off the sheet and put them in a freezer bag._________________"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

As I embark on a new/old way of thinking about the sometimesian traditions, I feel the need to bump this up. I've totally ignored the word thus far, and am going to tackle it this weekend.

I like what Nicloe said "I have reinstituted sometimes, meaning NEVER (with occasional exceptions), with great success the past two weekends. I don't feel out of control this way. Yay!_________________I guess this doesn't work unless you actually do it.
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