Speculation Without Spoilers

Pleas enjoy building a future for Saul, Chuck, and the rest of Better Call Saul here. Be considerate and do no rehash the entirety of Breaking Bad. Frankly, plenty of people have written better stuff than we will about BB and this is a new show.

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Chuck asked Jimmy to change his name. Will Jimmy do it for his big brother? Wiill Howard Hamlin force him to? Or will Nacho be the catalyst?

Where did Jimmy get the intel on Hamlin's suits & shirts? (Hamlindigo's no doubt common knowledge 'round HHM, but Jimmy had a cheat sheet at the tailor.) Kim Wexler? A profile in the media? Did Hamlin boast once in front of Jimmy, and he remembered it or wrote it down for future reference?

How old are Jimmy & Chuck? Bob Odenkirk was born in 1962, making him 30 in 1992 when Slippin' Jimmy was jailed for a "simple Chicago sunroof." I think Jimmy was supposed to be younger than that. Michael McKean was born in 1947. Is Chuck 15 years older than Jimmy?

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A big age gap between Chuck and Jimmy would make sense for how they play the characters. At first I presumed Chuck to be Jimmy's father. My theory is that something bad happens to Chuck from something Jimmy puts in motion, Jimmy gives Chuck his name as a memorial gift, Saul rises.

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Vince Gilligan mentioned in the most recent podcast that because BCA exists in the BB world, it's his job/burden to make sure that the development of Jimmy McGill to Saul Goodman is consistent with what we've already seen, as BB fans would accept nothing less. This includes any bits of business that were considered throwaways at the time. For example, he mentioned that at one point in BB, Saul mentions that he has 2 ex-wives. Does Jimmy have any at this point? How does he get there?

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Vince Gilligan mentioned in the most recent podcast that because BCA exists in the BB world, it's his job/burden to make sure that the development of Jimmy McGill to Saul Goodman is consistent with what we've already seen, as BB fans would accept nothing less. This includes any bits of business that were considered throwaways at the time. For example, he mentioned that at one point in BB, Saul mentions that he has 2 ex-wives. Does Jimmy have any at this point? How does he get there?

I think that Vince mentioned having to do something similar in BB on at least a couple of occasions. I know that one occasion was in the

"Live Free or Die" episode in which Walt 'celebrates' his 52nd birthday at Denny's and opens the trunk of the car, where we see the weapons.

That scene was written and shot before knowing how the story would actually evolve to that

point (since it was a flash forward).

Vince, Peter and the gang had to then connect all the dots and get the story to that point, making sure that everything made sense.

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Vince Gilligan mentioned in the most recent podcast that because BCA exists in the BB world, it's his job/burden to make sure that the development of Jimmy McGill to Saul Goodman is consistent with what we've already seen, as BB fans would accept nothing less. This includes any bits of business that were considered throwaways at the time. For example, he mentioned that at one point in BB, Saul mentions that he has 2 ex-wives. Does Jimmy have any at this point? How does he get there?

That's awesome. I was SO wondering this, including whether or not they were going to tell us that one of them is (will be) Kim. Thanks for porting it over.

Where did Jimmy get the intel on Hamlin's suits & shirts? (Hamlindigo's no doubt common knowledge 'round HHM, but Jimmy had a cheat sheet at the tailor.) Kim Wexler? A profile in the media? Did Hamlin boast once in front of Jimmy, and he remembered it or wrote it down for future reference?

I continue to think that's "Mailroom Jimmy"'s doings, as I speculated on an episode thread, but wouldn't it be interesting and fascinating if we get a scene where Jimmy mentor-coaxed it out of Hamlin? I'd like for them to have had a relationship. I also kinda think Patrick Fabian's acting it as if they did, not as if Jimmy was 100% some peon.

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I'm conflicted. I want a lot of the BB universe to stay preserved. It was perfect exactly the way it was done. I struggle with trusting VG to keep up perfect.

I trust Vince Gilligan & Peter Gould—even more so since I started listening to the "Better Call Saul" Insider podcast. (Thanks, @morgankobi!) They're so detail-oriented, and they really seem to care about the fans.

I don't think they'll let us down.

Edited March 3, 2015 by editorgrrl.

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I trust Vince Gilligan blindly, especially since he has always been so open and generous with his process. He seems to really love his craft and respect his audience. He's like the antithesis of David Chase.

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Since there was no Chuck in BrBa, that means Chuck dies, right? Of course, it could happen at the end of BCS, or even after the end, off screen.

I'm guessing Chuck's death'll be the catalyst for changing Saul into Jimmy. It was foreshadowed by Chuck asking Jimmy to change his name—'tho just his firm, so it might have been a bit of misdirection. Perhaps Chuck just ends up in a rubber room?

Five episodes in, and I'm still confused about the character's ages. Bob Odenkirk was born in 1962, Michael McKean & Jonathan Banks in 1947, Rhea Seehorn c. 1972, and Patrick Fabian in 1964. Are Jimmy & Mike supposed to be approximately 8 years younger than their actors? Saul was introduced to Walter White in December 2009, and this show begins in early 2002.

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If Chuck was in an institution, though, Jimmy/Saul would ostensibly visit him. Often. And take care of him. I'd think he'd have a harder time just going off on the lamb to Omaha, and leaving his brother behind. It seems Jimmy is the only family Chuck has. I do tend to think Chuck will die at some point. I think Chuck being around is the anchor that keeps pulling Jimmy back from the edge; what keeps him on the straight-and-narrow as much as possible. I don't think Jimmy would have become full-fledged Saul with his brother around.

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I've kind of felt that Chuck was doomed from the beginning. I don't know if he will make it all the way through the full run of BCS, or only as far as one or two seasons, but I think he will die. He may take his own life. He may have a terrible accident. He may be killed by a client of Jimmy's if Jimmy angers the client in some way.

To be honest, I kind of thought that Kim might eventually fall victim to one of Jimmy's angry, crazy clients as well. I don't think that both Chuck and Kim would die early on -- or even within a short time frame of each other -- but I can see her getting caught in a situation that goes awry.

If Kim does not die at any point in the series, and we flash forward to Saul in his post-BB/Cinnabon life again, it might not be shocking to see Saul try to call Kim, or see her come to visit him or something (which I know is against the 'rules' of disappearing, but it could happen).

Edited March 3, 2015 by Sherry67.

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Saul could have been visiting his brother all through BB, and we'd never have known. But if I take the doctor's read on the situation, Chuck could be much better, even cured, by the time BB occurs. We could see Chuck in a flash-forward, but as public as Saul is with his practice, I doubt Chuck would be approving. If Chuck gets better, he may be done with Saul, as he seemed to be with Slippin' Jimmy in the flashback.

I've been trying to feel out, since the twins in the desert, exactly how dark this show will be.

If Chuck is to die, how? He's physically healthy. A run-of-the-mill accident doesn't seem like the tone of this show, but I'm not sure it's a heavy enough show to go with any kind of nefarious thing.

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If Chuck were to die, I feel like it would be in a situation like the ones he faced with the cops at his door. He's in a panic, his condition is at its worst, people are not understanding him, and there's confusion. Sadly, mentally ill people are too often killed by law enforcement, and I could see a situation where they didn't know how to handle Chuck, decided he was violent in his agitated state, and resorted to some sort of violence. Or maybe not law enforcement. Maybe somehow the criminal element Jimmy eventually comes to represent comes into play. I'm not sure. True, it doesn't feel quite as dark as BB....but it's early. I'd say the jury's still out on that one.

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I don't know about Chuck's likely death, at least not soon, just basing it cynically on folks saying elsewhere that "Doctor" is kind of a nothing role for Clea Duvall.

Unless, I thought, Dr. Clea (forgot her show name) winds up treating Chuck or at the very least, testifying (for or against) Chuck in some kind of HHM lawsuit.

They're really kind of laying early groundwork for this like whoa, "my good friend Kim", who works for the enemy, inadvertently winds up being there when the doctor proves that electromagnetic impulses Chuck doesn't know or think about won't hurt him. It's also a good chance for Jimmy to "save", or at least try to, the brother who once saved him, with his silver tongue. I'd be sorta surprised if an HHM lawsuit against Chuck didn't make its way into the plot.

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I think the change from Jimmy to Saul will be related to a break of some sort between Jimmy and Chuck. That could be Chuck dying, but it might be Chuck getting better but wanting nothing to do with Jimmy's new persona. I can't see Saul leaving ABQ if Chuck is still sick.

Edited to add: If your question is "why move to Omaha, Nebraska, to manage a Cinnabon?"—it's a shoutout from TPTB to the Breaking Bad fans. The very first scene of the very first show says "we care about this stuff just as much as you guys do. Trust us."

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I don't know about Chuck's likely death, at least not soon, just basing it cynically on folks saying elsewhere that "Doctor" is kind of a nothing role for Clea Duvall.

Unless, I thought, Dr. Clea (forgot her show name) winds up treating Chuck or at the very least, testifying (for or against) Chuck in some kind of HHM lawsuit.

They're really kind of laying early groundwork for this like whoa, "my good friend Kim", who works for the enemy, inadvertently winds up being there when the doctor proves that electromagnetic impulses Chuck doesn't know or think about won't hurt him. It's also a good chance for Jimmy to "save", or at least try to, the brother who once saved him, with his silver tongue. I'd be sorta surprised if an HHM lawsuit against Chuck didn't make its way into the plot.

I'm still expecting a Vince Gilligan-style twist of some sort on Chuck's psycho-electromagnetic condition. By "Vince Gilligan-style" I mean something that really could happen, but is unlikely enough to surprise. Although Electromagnetic Hypersensitivity is not a medically recognized condition, I was surprised to discover that there are some studies published in scientifically recognized journals that seem to support its existence, such as Electromagnetic hypersensitivity: biological effects of dirty electricity with emphasis on diabetes and multiple sclerosis and the linked Related articles and Cited articles in the right column of the article's page in PubMed.

What I can't see coming (and I don't think we are supposed to see it) is how this plays out in the legal claims against or by HHM, which seem to result in Jimmy/Saul not ever getting the payday he had hoped for.

The other plot point I/we can't yet figure out is whether Jimmy becomes Saul to hide his identity or as part of an agreement with HHM. Right now I'm leaning towards Jimmy abandoning his own last name as part of an agreement for HHM to not press legal charges against Jimmy for any of a variety of legally questionable things he will have done that could or did harm HHM or individuals within HHM.

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I don't think he can hide his identity as Jimmy, he's been too high profile. We saw him in a New Mexico courtroom right off the bat, he's in and out of the courthouse and police are familiar with him. Plus he had his billboard escapade which made him worthy of front page hero coverage. It seems likely to me he changes his name legally after a final breach with the firm and/or his brother. The brother angle is what interests me, I give even odds to death by misadventure vs. acceptance of treatment, recovery and complete rejection of Jimmy.

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What I can't see coming (and I don't think we are supposed to see it) is how this plays out in the legal claims against or by HHM, which seem to result in Jimmy/Saul not ever getting the payday he had hoped for.

Good point! I've been wondering why Jimmy changes his name, but I never even considered what happens to Chuck's money. Right now he's broke, but he's an equity partner in the firm. Does Howard Hamlin screw him out of his share? Does Chuck squander it somehow? Is he in a rubber room?

The brother angle is what interests me, I give even odds to death by misadventure vs. acceptance of treatment, recovery and complete rejection of Jimmy.

I also never considered the possibility that Chuck is alive & well but estranged from Jimmy. But what keeps Jimmy in Albuquerque? Mike? Nacho?

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With the attitude he's been taking, I suspect HH embezzled the money; he won't let Chuck cash out because he doesn't have enough left to give him.

I wouldn't be surprised by this. Maybe he'll also be in some way responsible for Chuck's death (assuming he dies). I can just picture the scene where Jimmy/Saul wants to kill HH, only to be "stopped" by Mike, who'll take care of that himself.

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I posted this in the "Bingo" thread yesterday, and it got me thinking:

Speaking of those Kettlemans, was there a lot of orange in their scenes this episode? Echoing Marie's purple, and maybe foreshadowing prison jumpsuits?

"Breaking Bad" did a lot with color. The main characters had palettes which changed throughout the run. And the names contained colors: White, Pinkman, Skyler…

Here, we have Hamlindigo blue, and Jimmy's cream colored Matlock suit. He even admired a Saul-colored shirt at the tailor.

But what about names? It's a stretch, but think about the pot calling the kettle black. The Kettlemans are the anti-Whites! Whilst Walt is meticulous, Craig is sloppy—writing checks to himself. Skyler has great business acumen, but Betsy lives in cloud-cuckoo-land.

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Walt was also brilliant, where Craig is not. I think Bets is unhinged; like Jimmy said, on a good day she has no relationship with logic. My speculation is that she is going to do something awful in the future.

As to the colors, I hadn't noticed the orange other than Betsy's lipstick (which she pulled off quite well, it doesn't work on lots of women). Maybe I will watch again with that in mind. It certainly relates to jail orange.

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On Breaking Bad, the colors [showed] the character's journey. What we did on Saul is that the colors put you into your category in life. So good folks, let's say on the legal side of things, have a certain palette, like military colors, navys, and greens, and blues. Guys on the other side of the law, the hustlers and the cons, I had them in reds and oranges, and colors of the New Mexico desert. And so for Saul, since he rides both sides of the fence, I picked brown. Even the Kettlemans, who steal the money, they're in the same [red] color palette, although they are respectable. Even Mike, in the parking booth, I have him in gray.

So when Jimmy was drawn to that bright orange shirt and magenta tie at the tailor, he was flirting with being a bad guy. But he put it back & opted for Hamlindigo.

Edited to add that Jennifer Bryan is responsible for Hamlin's Italian suits (super 170 Tasmanian wool with real mother-of-pearl buttons) and shirts (Sea Island cotton with club collar and French cuffs). She worked on the final season of Breaking Bad.

Edited March 19, 2015 by editorgrrl.

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Very interesting, editorgrrl. So with the choice of the double-breasted jacket and the navy blue, he wants to be noticed but respectable. His progression to BB choices shows he doesn't care about respectability. Which parallels most of his actions in that time frame. And he ends up in Cinnabon aprons.

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I have a feeling Chuck or Kim, or both, are going to stab Jimmy in the back, probably with the class action suit. I can't think of anything else that would spur the deep rooted cynicism that would turn someone like Jimmy into Saul.

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That's not a bad guess. Maybe when Hamlindigo finds out about the copies and goes to Chuck about it, Chuck offers to bring the case under the HHM and leaves Jimmy hanging in the wind? I don't know, though, while Chuck does seem to lack faith in his brother, I don't know if I can see him doing something that cold. But maybe we don't really know the real Chuck yet. Maybe the sympathetic guy we've seen so far is that way because he's had to rely on Jimmy for the last few years. Maybe his venture outside made him realize just how much he wants to be back to normal, back working - and not for himself, but for a prestigious law firm.

We shall see. The reason I lean more towards Chuck than Kim is because I think that kind of betrayal would cut deeper.

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It was kind of prompted by the http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/03/24/better-call-saul-rico-review IGN review I'm reading. Chuck is so loyal to HMM, and I also question how a brilliant legal mind like Chuck's would overlook that using HMM's equipment with his code wouldn't compromise Jimmy's involvement in this case. He'd probably even feel it was "right" since he is the one who spotted the RICO big payday.

If the case they are working on does become as large-scale as Chuck is intending then - according to Kim - Hamlin, Hamlin & McGill will have a claim on it. Additionally, by the close of “RICO”, Chuck seemed to be on the verge of a radical recovery. It’s possible that his momentary sojourn outside was simply the pause before the crazy-town storm. What if Chuck is suddenly able to function – at least to some degree – normally again, though? It’s unlikely that Gilligan and Gould would utilize a Deus Ex Machine wherein Chuck is magically restored to his former self. However, if he were to believe that he were well-enough to try this case on this own, then it’s entirely likely that he would abandon his brother in favor of his former firm.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Umbelina.

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If Chuck should decide he wants back in to the prestigious firm of which he was a founding partner, and his entree is this Sandpiper case, then he could also damn well bring Jimmy in, if he wanted. He could say he is part of the package, Jimmy is the firm's newest associate. Jimmy did all of the initial legwork, found out the scam, dumpster dove, etc. None of this would be falling into HHM's lap without Jimmy, so it would be the right thing to do. But given how we saw Chuck not put his weight behind hiring Jimmy initially, it really would not be surprising if Chuck is the one who rejects Jimmy and pushes him into Saul-dom.

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At the least, Jimmy should get a referral fee - are there standard rates for something like that? In the previews, Kim said, "I'd take the deal" rather brusquely before shutting an office door on Jimmy. Makes me wonder if Chuck brings the case in to HHM and Jimmy resists.

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I'm hoping that the writers are building in a twist that we can't see. I tend to agree with the theory that Chuck will "recover", take the case back to HHM, effectively stabbing Jimmy in the back, and will use Kim as his right hand man (or woman), with the result that HHM, Chuck and Kim gets all the glory. This seems like a very plausible story arc but it's also so obvious that I'll be a little disappointed if I'm right. Even though we all know where Jimmy ends up, I was hoping there would be many unpredictable twists and turns along the way - or maybe after watching BB, we're now so used to the twists that we can see them more clearly? In any event, I've really enjoyed BCS so far (I don't think there's anything wrong with the pacing), but I still hope the story hasn't become predictable, because that would take some gloss off what is (so far) an amazing series. In some ways, I think it's better than BB because in the end I thought that Walter White became a caricature and while the ending was great, I found that I no longer had any sympathy for him as a character. I had hoped that he would retain a sliver of humanity but he just seemed more two dimensional towards the end (but maybe that was the point).

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That's not a bad guess. Maybe when Hamlindigo finds out about the copies and goes to Chuck about it, Chuck offers to bring the case under the HHM and leaves Jimmy hanging in the wind? I don't know, though, while Chuck does seem to lack faith in his brother, I don't know if I can see him doing something that cold. But maybe we don't really know the real Chuck yet. Maybe the sympathetic guy we've seen so far is that way because he's had to rely on Jimmy for the last few years. Maybe his venture outside made him realize just how much he wants to be back to normal, back working - and not for himself, but for a prestigious law firm.

We shall see. The reason I lean more towards Chuck than Kim is because I think that kind of betrayal would cut deeper.

I'm wondering if this could be another situation that is mirroring what we've seen with Mike and his son.

One thing that stuck out to me was when the Sandpiper lawyer was talking to Jimmy, how he made it clear he knew who Chuck was and then laughed off Jimmy's threats saying "this is a shakedown and we both know it". Could it be that Chuck has actually been involved in shady deals in the past and (in some circles) is even well known for that? It could be a bit of misdirection, making the statements seem slightly unconnected (he's acknowledging Chuck and then calling Jimmy shady), but in actuality maybe he's assuming Jimmy's trying to shake him down because that's what he thinks Chuck would do.

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One thing that stuck out to me was when the Sandpiper lawyer was talking to Jimmy, how he made it clear he knew who Chuck was and then laughed off Jimmy's threats saying "this is a shakedown and we both know it". Could it be that Chuck has actually been involved in shady deals in the past and (in some circles) is even well known for that? It could be a bit of misdirection, making the statements seem slightly unconnected (he's acknowledging Chuck and then calling Jimmy shady), but in actuality maybe he's assuming Jimmy's trying to shake him down because that's what he thinks Chuck would do.

Maybe, or maybe the guy was recognizing Chuck is not currently active, knows of Jimmy's reputation as something lesser than Chuck (having seen the billboard and front page news coverage of that escapade) and is just trying to bark loud and scare him off. He doesn't know at this point what Jimmy really has uncovered. And he did acknowledge Chuck's brilliance at trial when they had the meeting at Chuck's house, so he knows he is a heavy-hitter and not necessarily a shady dealer.

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I think it's gonna end up being something based in classism. I think they're eventually gonna show that Hamlin and Chuck McGill are every bit as sleazy and "unethical" as Saul Goodman ends up being (or even moreso) but Jimmy doesn't realize that yet, at least as it relates to Chuck. I don't think Chuck is necessarily gonna directly screw Jimmy over per se, but rather, I think Chuck is gonna eventually sit Jimmy down and break his spirit real good... something along the lines of "Jimmy, you're just not capable of running in these circles. Swimming with these sharks. You can't pull it off. Good for you for passing the bar and uncovering this fraud case and all that, but you'll never be good enough for the corner office on the sixth floor of the swanky building. You'll never be able to rock the club collar and the mother of pearl and gain admittance to The Club. Get yourself an office in a strip mall and know your place in this world. Because you're beneath us, beneath me, and nothing is ever gonna change that. You just don't have it in you to be One of Us." Chuck might even think he's doing right by Jimmy in telling him some "hard truths" and "freeing" Jimmy of some of the ambition that Chuck feels Jimmy will never be able to realize, and sparing him a bunch of heartache in the process.

And Jimmy's gonna believe it, because Chuck said it. It's gonna beat him down like nothing else possibly could.

And then to top it all off, I think Jimmy is gonna have the wool lifted from his eyes at some point re: Chuck, and finally see that Chuck is no less a shyster than any of 'em (sorry, lawyers, nothing personal.) That Chuck is just Slippin' Jimmy in far more expensive clothing. (I assume he already suspects as much of Hamlin, but he's got a blind spot when it comes to his brother.) And that's what's finally gonna break him and let his cynicism run amok, turning him into Saul. I suspect Mike's cynicism might also end up being a major factor, as Jimmy and Mike get more intertwined. I could see Jimmy unloading on Mike one day at a diner of some sort, and Mike rolling his eyes and sighing and saying "Yep. Tell me, kid, how did you not see this coming? It's just the way shit works." And Jimmy furrowing his brow as if to say "Yeah, you're right. Guess I just never wanted to admit it, but..."