Re: Has anybody floated from stardom to role player more gracefully than VC?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rake2204

I think I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum from a lot of fans of his and a lot of fans of the league. I've never really thought "what if" with Vince Carter. Mostly, I just thought about "what is" and "what was". He wasn't Chris Washburn, he wasn't James White, and he wasn't Marvin Williams. He was a guy who was initially an athlete first in college who was able to turn himself into a regular 25, 6 and 5 guy in the best professional league in the world. That's not really something I can turn around and say, "Geez, what a waste" about. To me, becoming one of the best 20 players in the world is the antithesis of waste.

I've always felt comparing players to the small select few who had diabolical competition disorders wasn't always the best way of judging that player's worth. Vince Carter's brain was different than Michael Jordan's and Kobe Bryant's. The same could be said for 99.9% of every other NBA player (and human) who ever lived. Again, I don't think that should make anyone sad or regretful. Vince Carter was a human being who played the game of basketball because he enjoyed it. He knew it wasn't life or death, but that doesn't mean he didn't want to win and be successful. Winning just wasn't the only thing with him, and I don't think it should have been.

Lastly, I've always kind of wondered when and how it was decided that Vince Carter had the ability to be the best player of all time if only he decided to try. The truth is, I've known a pretty significant amount of basketball players in my life who've had monster verticals and insane athleticism. And you know what? None of them ended up being Vince Carter. What I'm saying is, no one becomes an 8-time NBA All-Star without putting in an insane amount of training and hard work. It is not possible to walk into the type of career Vince had. So with that, I wonder, how do we know Carter did not achieve close to his full potential? Why do we assume he could have automatically equaled the greatest players of all-time?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by saying he "lacked any type of loyalty or honor to his team, his employers, or himself". He made a terrible decision in Toronto to basically force himself out of the franchise once his team began hoarding mediocre talent, and I can definitely interpret that action as definitively being a lack of loyalty, but I'm not sure if that means he was disloyal at every other point of his career and I'm not sure how that means he wasn't loyal to himself.

Further, I must say, I'm not sure we could fault a person as a basketball player simply because we presume they may have missed a season if they were hypothetically repeatedly and literally stabbed in the back, neck and face. Paul Pierce is tough, but he's also extremely lucky. From what I understand, folks don't usually emerge from being stabbed 11 times by being in fair condition. A lot of criticisms of Carter could be made, but I feel the "Geez, I bet he'd be injured if he were stabbed 11 times" argument does not hold much merit.

After 12 solid years in the NBA (and at least 10 great ones), I don't think there's any shame in acknowledging that you're 35 years old and no longer capable of playing as if you were 26. If anything, someone who understands their regression is much less shameful (or perhaps embarrassing is the right word) than someone who's that age, no longer highly skilled, but is too proud to recognize it.

As someone else mentioned in this thread, Vince Carter reminds me a little of David Robinson in this regard. Both players seemed readily able to acknowledge their decline, accept it, and look for the best and most effective way they could then serve their team. In Robinson's case, that meant taking a huge back seat to Tim Duncan, concentrating more on rebounding and defense. In Carter's case, that meant just trying to fill in the blanks whereever he could in Dallas.

Of course, everything I say is incredibly biased because I'm a huge fan of both Carter and Robinson. But honestly, I truly do prefer seeing former stars age gracefully as opposed to losing skill but still demanding shots until the bitter end.

Great post.
I'm one of Vince's biggest fans on this board and I defended him almost every time someone called him soft and said he doesn't work hard. I agree that you can't just become an 8 time all star while putting up 20+ 5 and 5 most your career without trying. I'm definitely not saying hes a waste of talent like those players you've mentioned. I just wish sometimes that he did have the Kobe or the Michael mentality because he would have been the most dominate player in the league. The way his career turned out is still HoF status in my opinion (just missing a ring), but I really believe if he had that killer instinct, everything would be different right now.

Re: Has anybody floated from stardom to role player more gracefully than VC?

I wanted to comment on this thread earlier but here it is

Does anybody remember the 2010 Eastern Conference Finals? The Magic lost to the celtics and after the series vince was on the court smiling and laughing with nate robinson and co...............****ing pathetic. I would never want that piece of shit on my team taking losing like it's something he expected

Re: Has anybody floated from stardom to role player more gracefully than VC?

Quote:

Originally Posted by macpierce

I wanted to comment on this thread earlier but here it is

Does anybody remember the 2010 Eastern Conference Finals? The Magic lost to the celtics and after the series vince was on the court smiling and laughing with nate robinson and co...............****ing pathetic. I would never want that piece of shit on my team taking losing like it's something he expected

ugh

I think there's a thin line there. If a player's goofing around during a game and clearly not invested because he just doesn't care, then we have a problem. However, when the game ends, the game ends. The truth is, winning is not life or death. Some people remain pissed about losing for days after. Some people are upset until morning. Others understand they lost, have accepted defeat, but force themselves to appear very upset, and more still can be gracious toward those of whom they've just been defeated.

I honestly don't find it terribly difficult to separate the intensity and severe will to compete from the rest of my life. I hate the people I play against while we're actually playing, then even after an especially heart-wrenching loss, I can still acknowledge the competition is over and if the people I was playing against were my friends before, they'll remain my friends after. Even if I don't know my competition, I'll still respect them. When that game ends, we step back to real life. So in that regard, Vince Carter is not the first person to acknowledge and accept defeat after a game has ended and he won't be the last.

I do not even recall the incident in question, but only because the post-series handshakes always seem to contain a slight mix of dejection, but also a significant amount of players who are actually friends with one another wishing each other well as they moved on (or perhaps making plans for later). Perhaps unfortunately for some fans, the "battle" of an NBA game is not as serious as we wish it were. At the end of the day, these guys are all still fellow millionaire co-workers who often have ties much stronger than that of their current organization. Opposing players do not go through their careers hating everyone that does not play for their team or refusing to smile unless they win the championship and whatnot.

Re: Has anybody floated from stardom to role player more gracefully than VC?

Quote:

Originally Posted by macpierce

I wanted to comment on this thread earlier but here it is

Does anybody remember the 2010 Eastern Conference Finals? The Magic lost to the celtics and after the series vince was on the court smiling and laughing with nate robinson and co...............****ing pathetic. I would never want that piece of shit on my team taking losing like it's something he expected

ugh

2010 was Vince's best chance at winning a ring. I still to this date believe that the Magic should have won the first two games. Rasheed lewis stunk it up completely as did Vince. At 32, Vince should have been attacking the rim non-stop instead of settling for jumpers resulting in sub 40% shooting for many games. Game 6 against Boston was his best game in terms of effort but Nate Robinson ( who did not play a second on games 1-5 ) exploded for 20 points and ended the Magics title run.
Even Reddick in a 2012 interview stated that the 2010 Magic were the closest bunch of guys and the best team he has ever played on. They just stunk it up against Boston.
But to avoid writing a novel, I have always felt Vince never truly wanted to win bad enough until he reached the age of 30+. Bit too late but if only he had the Kobe mentality he would be a top 5 of all time

Re: Has anybody floated from stardom to role player more gracefully than VC?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heavincent

I don't know about that actually. I have seen coaches that clearly play favorites and cut good players just so a family friend could make the team. Not to mention the asshole parents that basically blackmail the coach.

AAU and high school basketball is full of some of the slimiest people on the planet.

Re: Has anybody floated from stardom to role player more gracefully than VC?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RRR3

As a T-Mac fan, I understand your annoyance with Bryant stans. They're still butthurt that T-Mac and VC were once on their loverboy's level I'll give Mamba boys this, they NEVER forget.

I hate T-Mac. Vince left the year after T-Mac left and ruined Vince's rep. If Tracy was preset against Philly or for that entire season the Raptors would have had a better seed or beat Philly. I also think that they could have beat the Lakers then.
Can't blame T-Mac though. Going to Orlando really boosted his career to new heights. I respect him.

Re: Has anybody floated from stardom to role player more gracefully than VC?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LikeABosh

Carter being content as a role player just epitomizes his whole career. He had all the talent in the world and just didn't want "it" enough.

THIS THIS AND THIS. Vince Carter is an idiot. He needs to realize that if the ball isn't in his hands and he isn't trying to dominate the game then he's a failure. Unfortunately, NBA people are so stupid that he'd never get signed by another team and he'd be forced to play in Turkey or some shit because he doesn't have money and then he'd become a fallen star who is crying on tv. He'd probably have to then go off and change his name to Allen Iverson or something.