Historical documents indicate the existence of a performance practice by solo pianists (mostly if not entirely connected to Chopin) of a trait whereby the composed melody (RH, LH, imbedded in both) becomes rhythmically dissociated from the accompaniment that it is composed together with. This pianist has never witnessed (nor been taught) such and desires to witness it if it is, in fact, an extant practice. Citations of recordings with work and measure number (or links to same) or submitted recordings of self-generated examples, that would allow for simultaneous visual (score) and auditory review are highly desirable.

I think (?) that would have been a better initial post.

You didn't bother to listen to the Saint-Saens example I posted a few pages back with the indication of the spots with the kind of contrametric rubato possibly used by Chopin, did you?

No I didn't, but not intentionally. Can you find that again for me?

Sure I can, but I won't do it. I'm not selling anything here.

musical-md wrote:

But, are we talking about the same thing or not? "Contrametric" rubato may suggest that we're not, because the notion of a rubato going against a meter sounds once again like a composed device like hemiola (meter against meter) or something. This has to be an interpretive feature that the pianist provides, while suspending the melody-accompaniment relationship in the score. If so, I want to hear this (and hope I have the score for the music).

You see, Eddy, you brutalized this thread and you cannot even understand the very basic terms of the issue. Furthermore, consider this: why did you unintentionally mispell my name (which is in signature to every post of mine)? And why did you unintentionally miss that Saint-Saens recording? I suspect that you don't read the posts you reply to, am I wrong? This could explain why you then make up irrelevant examples like the previous Mozart and Beethoven ones. Or childishly scramble the letters of a sentence to prove who knows what.

And here again, your speculations about contrametric rubato are made on the whim of the moment, you clearly don't know what contrametric rubato is.

_________________"A conclusion is simply the place where you got tired of thinking" - Anonymous

Historical documents indicate the existence of a performance practice by solo pianists (mostly if not entirely connected to Chopin) of a trait whereby the composed melody (RH, LH, imbedded in both) becomes rhythmically dissociated from the accompaniment that it is composed together with. This pianist has never witnessed (nor been taught) such and desires to witness it if it is, in fact, an extant practice. Citations of recordings with work and measure number (or links to same) or submitted recordings of self-generated examples, that would allow for simultaneous visual (score) and auditory review are highly desirable.

I think (?) that would have been a better initial post.

You didn't bother to listen to the Saint-Saens example I posted a few pages back with the indication of the spots with the kind of contrametric rubato possibly used by Chopin, did you?

No I didn't, but not intentionally. Can you find that again for me?

Sure I can, but I won't do it. I'm not selling anything here.

musical-md wrote:

But, are we talking about the same thing or not? "Contrametric" rubato may suggest that we're not, because the notion of a rubato going against a meter sounds once again like a composed device like hemiola (meter against meter) or something. This has to be an interpretive feature that the pianist provides, while suspending the melody-accompaniment relationship in the score. If so, I want to hear this (and hope I have the score for the music).

You see, Eddy, you brutalized this thread and you cannot even understand the very basic terms of the issue. Furthermore, consider this: why did you unintentionally mispell my name (which is in signature to every post of mine)? And why did you unintentionally miss that Saint-Saens recording? I suspect that you don't read the posts you reply to, am I wrong? This could explain why you then make up irrelevant examples like the previous Mozart and Beethoven ones. Or childishly scramble the letters of a sentence to prove who knows what.

And here again, your speculations about contrametric rubato are made on the whim of the moment, you clearly don't know what contrametric rubato is.

Whatever Alfonso.

_________________Eddy M. del Rio, MD"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne

Alex, I assure you that I'm not doing what you're suggesting, this is just getting back to the matter of evidence category, and Richard is suggesting the same. Just as embouchure of wind-playing has nothing to do with piano playing, so also does the fact that an ensemble of musicians can do a thing (that "2-layered rubato thingy") not prove that a single pianist can do it; whether he/she should or shouldn't isn't my issue. I feel like I'm going in circles. Please respond henceforth, if you or others wish, just to the following:

Historical documents indicate the existence of a performance practice by solo pianists (mostly if not entirely connected to Chopin) of a trait whereby the composed melody (RH, LH, imbedded in both) becomes rhythmically dissociated from the accompaniment that it is composed together with. This pianist has never witnessed (nor been taught) such and desires to witness it if it is, in fact, an extant practice. Citations of recordings with work and measure number (or links to same) or submitted recordings of self-generated examples, that would allow for simultaneous visual (score) and auditory review are highly desirable.

I feel as though every time one of your points is answered, you just go ahead and move the goalposts. I thought you wanted to know whether famous pianists do this nowadays in concert performances. There's absolutely no doubt that it's possible. (Twentieth century composers have asked pianists for much greater independence of hands.) I can record a few bars of a Chopin nocturne for you right now, if you promise not to move the goalposts again!

Alex, I assure you that I'm not doing what you're suggesting, this is just getting back to the matter of evidence category, and Richard is suggesting the same. Just as embouchure of wind-playing has nothing to do with piano playing, so also does the fact that an ensemble of musicians can do a thing (that "2-layered rubato thingy") not prove that a single pianist can do it; whether he/she should or shouldn't isn't my issue. I feel like I'm going in circles. Please respond henceforth, if you or others wish, just to the following:

Historical documents indicate the existence of a performance practice by solo pianists (mostly if not entirely connected to Chopin) of a trait whereby the composed melody (RH, LH, imbedded in both) becomes rhythmically dissociated from the accompaniment that it is composed together with. This pianist has never witnessed (nor been taught) such and desires to witness it if it is, in fact, an extant practice. Citations of recordings with work and measure number (or links to same) or submitted recordings of self-generated examples, that would allow for simultaneous visual (score) and auditory review are highly desirable.

I feel as though every time one of your points is answered, you just go ahead and move the goalposts. I thought you wanted to know whether famous pianists do this nowadays in concert performances. There's absolutely no doubt that it's possible. (Twentieth century composers have asked pianists for much greater independence of hands.) I can record a few bars of a Chopin nocturne for you right now, if you promise not to move the goalposts again!

Alexander, I am glad that you didn't write me off. I am bothered (mildly) that you think I have changed the terms of the discussion when I have tried repeatedly to limit the discussion to my issue (repeatedly defined), against a tsunami of singers, styles, ensembles and historical (forensic) evidence. My question has always been about what I have re-expressed just recently in clearest fashion (I think). I would truely be honored if you would demonstrate this. (And I think other inquiring minds want to know.) Do pianists today (or even of the 20th century, including the golden era of the virtuosos) perform this way, or no?

Regards,Eddy

_________________Eddy M. del Rio, MD"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne

You shouldn't feel too honoured. This is a hastily made home recording. It displays neither beautiful performance nor good sound quality. But I hope it demonstrates the thing we're talking about.

I'm attaching four takes of the beginning of a well known Chopin piece. Take 1 is as close to being strictly in tempo as I can manage. Pay attention to the ornament at the beginning of bar 2. For my taste, the turn sounds hurried if played without rubato. Take 2 is with rubato as it is usually done, allowing a little extra time at the start of bar 2, with hands remaining together. Take 3 is my impression of the rubato that Mozart, Chopin and others describe: the right hand takes extra time and catches up later, while the left hand remains in strict time. Take 4 is the same sort of rubato exaggerated to a ridiculous extent, to demonstrate what is possible.

You'll notice that take 4 is a little faster and louder than the other versions: I was rather tense while doing this. I had four practice runs before recording the final version. It would probably take another twenty goes to get it feeling relaxed and completely in control. I'm not saying it's easy to do this, but it certainly is possible.

You shouldn't feel too honoured. This is a hastily made home recording. It displays neither beautiful performance nor good sound quality. But I hope it demonstrates the thing we're talking about.

I'm attaching four takes of the beginning of a well known Chopin piece. Take 1 is as close to being strictly in tempo as I can manage. Pay attention to the ornament at the beginning of bar 2. For my taste, the turn sounds hurried if played without rubato. Take 2 is with rubato as it is usually done, allowing a little extra time at the start of bar 2, with hands remaining together. Take 3 is my impression of the rubato that Mozart, Chopin and others describe: the right hand takes extra time and catches up later, while the left hand remains in strict time. Take 4 is the same sort of rubato exaggerated to a ridiculous extent, to demonstrate what is possible.

You'll notice that take 4 is a little faster and louder than the other versions: I was rather tense while doing this. I had four practice runs before recording the final version. It would probably take another twenty goes to get it feeling relaxed and completely in control. I'm not saying it's easy to do this, but it certainly is possible.

Pay attention class! THIS is what I'm talking about! Alex your descriptions are exactly what I perceived after listening BEFORE reading them (I went right for the download). I almost laughed out loud as I heard take 4, fearing that you might hurt yourself. Thank you very much! You have given me (and very likely others) aural insight to a lost performing practice of mythic character. Now be honest. Is this not the first time you have ever done this kind of rubato? Maybe not, but this was the first time I have heard it. Now if anyone else wants to start a seperate thread on the aesthetics and philosophy of this kind of performance practice, you can ... but it won't be me

Alex, I hope you had a great recital on the 3rd (Bach/Szymanowksi)!

Regards,Eddy

All's Well that Ends Well

Edit: changed spelling of aesthetics

_________________Eddy M. del Rio, MD"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne

Last edited by musical-md on Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

But how, pray, can you seaprate one thing from another? Is the piano so different from two violins? Do they not make the same music?

Are you not saying this:

"I cannot play this type of rubato so therefore I choose to say it does not exist and even if it does I do not want to acknowledge its existence"?

I mean no agression to you, but just food for thought. Do examine yourself and see.

I am not sure I could play it either, but I realise it might be second nature to some.

Richard, YOU'RE MAKING ME PULL MY HAIR OUT, and I don't have hardly any left. If my question is whether a single pianist can (not may) do a thing or not, it makes no difference to me what an ensemble can do?

Sigh.

And I am saying, if you (or I) cannot, does that follow that no one else can? This is what I am saying! And do keep your hair on, please!

_________________Richard Willmer"Please do not shoot the pianistHe is doing his best."Oscar Wilde: Impressions of America: Leadville

It has been said that the accompaniment vs melody rubato -- what I am calling Musical Dissociative Disorder -- is something that is best exemplified in the vocal literature, as I presume, a demonstration of melodic freedom of the singer, etc. However, I would have to say that listening to a performance where the accompanist (pianist or conductor) did not in fact accomodate the accompaniment to the singer's interpretation, thereby maintaining the vertical integrity of the composition and limiting rubato to the tempo as a whole, would be looked upon as a poor accompanist indeed. I'm sure many pianists here have good or even extensive accompanying experience (I do), and the fact that no matter how flexible the soloist or conductor (choral works) can be, that the pianist can "follow" is recognized as the achievment of art and skill -- just plain ensemble ability. This all came back to me as I was listening to a Chopin Nocturne performed by violin (melody) and piano (accompaniment) and recognized as I listened that I would be horrified to hear any dissociation of the melodic rhythm from that of the accompaniment in this two-performer version. Why should it be any different if performed just by a pianist? I maintain that such a dissociation is both unmusical and contrary to everything a musician trains by.

I am glad that you didn't write me off. I am bothered (mildly) that you think I have changed the terms of the discussion when I have tried repeatedly to limit the discussion to my issue (repeatedly defined), against a tsunami of singers, styles, ensembles and historical (forensic) evidence. My question has always been about what I have re-expressed just recently in clearest fashion (I think). I would truely be honored if you would demonstrate this. (And I think other inquiring minds want to know.) Do pianists today (or even of the 20th century, including the golden era of the virtuosos) perform this way, or no?

No longer the question of evolution but the evolution of the question...

_________________Richard Willmer"Please do not shoot the pianistHe is doing his best."Oscar Wilde: Impressions of America: Leadville

Last edited by richard66 on Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sorry, Richard, but I think two violins is a lot different than a piano.

I was under the impression they were musical instruments used to play music by musicians. Maybe I am mistaken.

A pianist is one person with one head, and two violinists have two heads which means you have two heads working out their playing style instead of just one pianist (and his one head..haha). That's what I mean by being a lot different.

_________________"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

Terez, I was afraid you would do it. To my ears that piano roll is quite useless. Piano rolls quality varies but I'm worried if you say that the style seems much the same. It's a parody, plus I don't hear a steady tempo by the LH. There's a lot of what is called "agogic rubato" not the contrametric rubato you're looking for.

By 'parody', do you mean it's a fake, or you don't like his interpretation?

Terez, I was afraid you would do it. To my ears that piano roll is quite useless. Piano rolls quality varies but I'm worried if you say that the style seems much the same. It's a parody, plus I don't hear a steady tempo by the LH. There's a lot of what is called "agogic rubato" not the contrametric rubato you're looking for.

By 'parody', do you mean it's a fake, or you don't like his interpretation?

If you listen to the electric recordings of SS and compare them to the available reproductions of his piano rolls, you'd think that's a different pianist is playing. What emerges from that piano roll is not even an 'interpretation', it's something totally distorted and artistically meaningless from my point of view.

_________________"A conclusion is simply the place where you got tired of thinking" - Anonymous

It didn't seem incredibly distorted to me, but I suppose we could argue about that ad infinitum and not get anywhere. I imagine you'll take it as a sign of my inferior sensibilities, but I suppose there's not anything I can do about that, either.

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