I don't know about you, but if the last episode had not indicated that Vegeta might be sacrificed, I guess 17 death could been more impactful

Doctor. wrote:So, let me get this straight. We're gonna bring back Freeza, we're gonna imply that he learned from his mistakes, we're gonna make it so that he plays it cool for all the tournament and we're gonna have him realize he's no match for Jiren so he's gonna manipulate the others into taking him out for him. Then... let's have him literally chimp out and attack Jiren for no particular reason besides a cheap Namek arc reference. Sure, why not? I just can't understand what the hell they have in mind. It's like each episode is trying to destroy everything the others have set up.

"Looks like getting hit by an attack that big, unguarded, can hurt him" has to go down as one of the dumbest lines someone has ever said in this show.

Jiren's backstory is bad. Let's ignore the fact that it's generic and that "Might is Right" is such a boring theme for the final antagonist of a series. The portrayal of Jiren in this episode feels completely incoherent with the way he was being characterized in the past. What happened to "I seek what lies beyond strength"? What happened to his disdain for Hit being an assassin? If Jiren was always like this, then he would have praised Hit for being strong regardless of his occupation.

And, of course, #17's sacrifice, though he has been one of the highlights of the tournament, felt completely shallow due to the fact that the fight seems to have no sense of progression. They were already getting their asses kicked when Jiren was holding back, he reveals his full power and... nothing changes. Vegeta and Goku still spam their Final Flash/KHH combo and Jiren still tanks it only to have trouble with them in hand-to-hand combat. He actually feels weaker now considering, when he was holding back, he was defeating Kaioken x20 with a glance and shrugging off UI Goku's attacks. The sacrifice feels unnecessary since he could have just pushed Vegeta and Goku out of the way (we know he can control his barriers' movement now) and tried to block his attack with pure strength. Had he succeeded, great; had he failed, he would have been dead and Jiren disqualified. As always, Toei only seems to care about the spectacle and not about the context surrounding it. Also, I don't really want to mention it, since it's a superficial aspect of the scene, but #18's reaction had no weight because of how lifeless her face looked and how stiff the animation was.

One thing I do like is that the stage is finally somewhat interesting. Characters bouncing from rock to rock, using the side of the stage as footing. The choreography isn't really good, but at least the stage and setting is actually pleasant to look at now.

Another, excellent post!

The Patrolman wrote:

Consistency? WHATS THAT?

Super in a nutshell lol

Power levels are not just big numbers:

Spoiler:

Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.

If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.

An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.

OLKv3 wrote:
I love this image because I was thinking the same thing lmao.

Oh my god, that's hilarious

This is so honestly what should've happened. There's no way he could've explained all that so fast unless he was talking light speed.

As for the episode. Fantastic art. Great action. 17 is the MVP. But shit plot, shit timing, half assed backstory for Jiren that doesn't actually explain how he grew so powerful. Vegeta and Frieza's roles should've been reversed with Vegeta being the one who snaps and goes into Blue but get's one shotted due to lack of energy. And Frieza attempting to help 17 and Goku, would've been far more interesting in terms of dialogue too. Then they could've did the whole 17 self destruct thing and had Vegeta getting up in the next episode to fight Jiren possibly even have more impact considering what would've happened to him in this if he was in Frieza's role this.

The entire story layout of this episode is all out of wack. It's almost like filler quality.

Did anyone else notice that they have used the "Desperate Assault" OST three episodes in a row after not using it at all the entire arc? Looks like the directors really wanted it to be played again, lol.

-17 continuing to try and think 2 steps ahead is enjoyable.
-The fighting was alright; nothing amazing, but entertaining at least.
-There was good character direction for 17, in my opinion.
-The last 4 or 5 minutes was very well done.

Things I'm Mixed On:

-I actually only have one entry here this episode, and that's the animation. Most of the animation was fine, but a few shots looked really bad. I don't think the close-up of Vegeta's back looked nearly as epic as Toei likely thought it did.

Things I Disliked:

-Glad to see we're continuing to make stamina pointless. Vegeta going from worn-out to full-power Blue is just silly and not even worth getting worked up over anymore.
-Freeza has had some very poor treatment in these last two episodes. He shows up for what amounts to cameos; he makes a Namek reference, tries to fight for about 20 seconds, and then he gets knocked out. It's both repetitive and uninteresting. Hopefully this is just pointless fluff until Freeza actually does something of note.
-Jiren feeling weaker and weaker with each episode that passes makes my inner power scale lover sad. It's sort of to be expected, and after everything that's happened this arc I'm not as bothered anymore, but still...
-We interrupt this episode to have Belmod deliver a clunky and generic backstory for Jiren. It's as boring as Jiren himself; in a way, it's kind of fitting.

Overall, I don't think I enjoyed this episode as much as others did. I think that 17's moments and the shock death were good, and the action was at the very least enjoyable. However, I can't help but feel that there was something taking me out of the episode every couple minutes. Between the stamina nonsense, Freeza's cameo, Jiren's backstory, and the constant feeling of Jiren not actually seeming stronger despite having powered up, I was always taken out of the episode. That was probably what ultimately hurt my enjoyment of the episode. It had good storyboarding, it had some cool moments, and the climax of the episode was great, but the little things all added up to drag it down for me. Middle-of-the-road episode at best, in my personal opinion.

Next episode preview doesn't inspire much confidence in me, but as per usual, I'll adopt a "wait and see" approach.

"If you notice this and understand that it's flawed and just don't let it bother you, that's perfectly fine. But enjoying a flawed movie and calling a movie flawless are two completely different things."

-Adam from YourMovieSucksDOTorg
(Replace "movie" with "DBS episode" and that's pretty much my thoughts in regards to DBS critique)

I always try to remember that nothing is consistent and nothing makes any sense because the show is written for people with the attention span of an 8 year old-- ACTUAL 8 year olds.

The Super writers basically assume the viewers memory is erased every 10 seconds and/or that they are mentally impaired and cant comprehend things like logic and structure.

Also why the peanut gallery takes so much precious time each ep explains things that you'd have to be an idiot to not already know. Its spelling them out for young kids who may not get it.

There are brilliantly written kids shows, so we know it CAN be done in a way thats not insulting to people's intelligence. But the super writers brain melting stupidity is probably a combo of being under heavy time crunch + writing for people who wont notice f ups + ratings continuing to stay high.

Just a matter of convenience. I used to be angry at the end of pretty much every ep, until i read that interview where they literally said they dont GAF about the older demo amd only write for toddlers. Put everything in perspective.

It has to be that. The only alternative is that 80% of the writing staff is functionally retarded and should be wearing helmets to work.

Another horrible episode. Jiren's backstory is just as boring as his character. On top of that, why the hell should we even care? He is one of the worst characters to come out of Super yet it perfectly epitomizes Toei's efforts.

Inconsistent writing, throw away lines, etc. 17's sacrifice was ''cool'', but another throwaway moment for the sake of just being there. Frieza's cameo was also just ''cool''.

At this point all I want is Vegito because this entire arc (series) has been such garbage at least the fanservice road of an Takahashi animated Vegito would be enjoyable. I could care less who wins and why at this point and tbh can't wait for this blemish of a series to be over. Cool concepts, piss poor execution.

picc wrote:I used to be angry at the end of pretty much every ep, until i read that interview where they literally said they dont GAF about the older demo amd only write for toddlers. Put everything in perspective.

Could you please link me that interview ? I would also like to get that perspective.

picc wrote:I used to be angry at the end of pretty much every ep, until i read that interview where they literally said they dont GAF about the older demo amd only write for toddlers. Put everything in perspective.

Could you please link me that interview ? I would also like to get that perspective.

picc wrote:
aka they don't care about anyone but their target demo of young japanese kids, so they don't have to put forth any more effort than is necessary to please them

hence the action-packed but brainlessly illogical and inconsistent Dragonball Super

Thanks. And.. ouch. Makes me wonder why they even decided to reboot Dragon Ball in the first place.
Were they out of ideas for little kids' tv shows ?

This also means we can't really compare Dragon Ball Super with Dragon Ball or even Z. At most we can compare it with the DBZ movies. Some of which I hastily say contained asspulls, inconsistencies and incongruences.

It is a shame that Toei sees Dragon Ball only as a premise for a flashy kids tv show, as opposed to valuing and exploring/nurturing its amazing story and characters.

Saturnine wrote:
As for base Vegeta hanging in against Jiren, that's sooo fucking Toei... They've been doing this sort of shit since forever. I really hate it, though at least here we have the justification of not being allowed to kill other competitors, so at least we can suspend our disbelief and think Jiren is suppressing himself.

Thats Toriyama's outline/transcript

Where does this misconception that Toriyama isnt involved in the anime come from?

And even when Toei wants to change something they always ask for Toriyama's approval. Everything you see was either from Toriyama's transcripts or approved by Toriyama

This is extremely inaccurate information. There's no evidence whatsoever that Toriyama is involved in the outline or script for specific episodes. As far we know, he puts forth a general outline that is then adapted by the Toei writers. We don't know the specifics of which individual story beat is from him, but I'm willing to bet that AT MOST, other than the basic setup of the plot and character creation, Toriyama determined the general progression in terms of relevant characters that were eliminated, the fact that Goku got UI...and that's about it. He has nothing to do with who's in what form in what episode or in what fight. Hell, he might not even get as specific as "Vegeta fights Jiren before Goku goes UI". That could easily just be the way Toei decided to have things progress to get to the end point of a Goku and Jiren finale.

Also, Toei doesn't need to get his "approval" for individual episode decisions.

Saturnine wrote:
As for base Vegeta hanging in against Jiren, that's sooo fucking Toei... They've been doing this sort of shit since forever. I really hate it, though at least here we have the justification of not being allowed to kill other competitors, so at least we can suspend our disbelief and think Jiren is suppressing himself.

Thats Toriyama's outline/transcript

Where does this misconception that Toriyama isnt involved in the anime come from?

And even when Toei wants to change something they always ask for Toriyama's approval. Everything you see was either from Toriyama's transcripts or approved by Toriyama

This is extremely inaccurate information. There's no evidence whatsoever that Toriyama is involved in the outline or script for specific episodes. As far we know, he puts forth a general outline that is then adapted by the Toei writers. We don't the specifics of how much of the story he's actually responsible for, but I'm actually willing to bet that AT MOST Toriyama determined the general progression in terms of relevant characters that were eliminated, the fact that Goku got UI...and that's about it. He has nothing to do with who's in what form in what episode or in what fight, and Toei doesn't need to get his "approval" for individual episode decisions. I don't know where you got that, but it's incorrect.

There's nothing inaccurate about that information. In an interview with Toyotaro with the Italian branch of WIRED, he outright said that Toriyama supervises ALL storyboards.

Q: I've heard Toriyama has a direct role into your work, right?

T: Not only mine: he supervises every storyboard related to the Dragon Ball universe.

I'm pretty sure there's been other interviews where Toriyama commented on it himself, where he said that he'd correct things he didn't like about the anime's storyboards, but I can't recall that one specifically.

Where does this misconception that Toriyama isnt involved in the anime come from?

And even when Toei wants to change something they always ask for Toriyama's approval. Everything you see was either from Toriyama's transcripts or approved by Toriyama

This is extremely inaccurate information. There's no evidence whatsoever that Toriyama is involved in the outline or script for specific episodes. As far we know, he puts forth a general outline that is then adapted by the Toei writers. We don't the specifics of how much of the story he's actually responsible for, but I'm actually willing to bet that AT MOST Toriyama determined the general progression in terms of relevant characters that were eliminated, the fact that Goku got UI...and that's about it. He has nothing to do with who's in what form in what episode or in what fight, and Toei doesn't need to get his "approval" for individual episode decisions. I don't know where you got that, but it's incorrect.

There's nothing inaccurate about that information. In an interview with Toyotaro with the Italian branch of WIRED, he outright said that Toriyama supervises ALL storyboards.

That is for the manga. Toriyama has NOTHING to do with the anime storyboards. Nothing. That's all on Toei. This is common knowledge that honestly hasn't been up for discussion in years.

Xehanort wrote:I literally cannot believe what I just saw...this episode single-handedly almost ruined the entire arc for me.

Say what you want about Jiren, that he's boring, unninsteresting, has no personality (which is horseshit, but fine) and was just an overpowered baddy, but I legitimely thought they did a great job at making us curious to know just what the hell is up with this guy. Everything from his emotional detachment, to unbelievable power, and the fact they kept this mystery around him left me very interested and engaged throughout...and now they finally revealed his backstory...and this is the best they could come up with? Seriously, after so much buildup this is all you got?! This is the most generic, cliche'd, boring and unninsteresting thing they could've possibly done!

I mean I believe there's some people who are okay with this, mostly the same people who thought he was boring and unninsteresting from the get-go, and that's fair I guess but the fact is that the show seemed to be made entirely around hyping this guy up to be the ultimate "villain" and keeping his entire identiy under wraps was intentional to keep us guessing and interested. I seriously believe they did this amazingly well, and then they delivered with that load of crap. I'm really fucking dissapointed!

As for the rest of the episode, I thought it was pretty bad. Vegeta recovering after last episode was complete bullshit, and 17 being able to handle himself so well against Jiren made absolutely no sense. Fight choreography was meh but I thought the animation was decent enough for me to let that slide. I really liked 17's sendoff, after such a great performance in the tournament it was legitimely touching to see him go like that. But it was completely ruined after the single most rushed and poorly thoughtout backstory in the history of anime.

I really cannot believe what I just saw

I think that's on you to be honest. I genuinely have no idea what "build up" you're even referring to. I seriously can't remember ever once getting the impression that his character was going to be delved into or that Toei had some big reveal about why he was so strong or whatever. I always just assumed he was a strong guy who got strong cuz...he got strong. And it seems like a lot of people in the fandom are like me. Not only do I disagree that they did a "good" job building his mystery up, I wasn't even aware there was any build up to be had.

Artorias wrote:
This is extremely inaccurate information. There's no evidence whatsoever that Toriyama is involved in the outline or script for specific episodes. As far we know, he puts forth a general outline that is then adapted by the Toei writers. We don't the specifics of how much of the story he's actually responsible for, but I'm actually willing to bet that AT MOST Toriyama determined the general progression in terms of relevant characters that were eliminated, the fact that Goku got UI...and that's about it. He has nothing to do with who's in what form in what episode or in what fight, and Toei doesn't need to get his "approval" for individual episode decisions. I don't know where you got that, but it's incorrect.

There's nothing inaccurate about that information. In an interview with Toyotaro with the Italian branch of WIRED, he outright said that Toriyama supervises ALL storyboards.

That is for the manga. Toriyama has NOTHING to do with the anime storyboards. Nothing. That's all on Toei.

It's really cute how you ignored the quote from the interview I posted.

Q: I've heard Toriyama has a direct role into your work, right?

T: Not only mine: he supervises every storyboard related to the Dragon Ball universe.

There's also this:
Toriyama straight up says that he supervises the anime.

picc wrote:
There was almost no discernable difference in the fight choreography from before, despite Jiren supposedly unleashing all his power. I can't tell if its laziness or incompetence from the writers at this point, and it seems like its probably a healthy dose of both.

'

I honestly think this is just the animators inability due to skill/time constraints to show nuanced fight choreography. Demonstrating that one character is far stronger than the other requires a certain level of choreography to really show the difference in ability. But a lot of times, these animators have to rely on the classic repeat frames to convey the action, and repeat frames inherently make the fight look even by their very nature. One of the biggest examples of this is the moment when Jiren "powers up" in 123 against Goku, has all of this build up about how Belmod "hasn't seen Jiren get this serious in a long time", and then....Goku without KK starts to go toe to toe with him in a generic repeat frame flurry fest. My theory is that a lot of the animators don't have the time and/or talent to do anything more than that, so even though the writing is telling you that one character should be curb stomping the other, the visuals can't convey that properly.

Nia wrote:

Artorias wrote:

Nia wrote:
There's nothing inaccurate about that information. In an interview with Toyotaro with the Italian branch of WIRED, he outright said that Toriyama supervises ALL storyboards.

That is for the manga. Toriyama has NOTHING to do with the anime storyboards. Nothing. That's all on Toei.

It's really cute how you ignored the quote from the interview I posted.

Q: I've heard Toriyama has a direct role into your work, right?

T: Not only mine: he supervises every storyboard related to the Dragon Ball universe.

There's also this:
Toriyama straight up says that he supervises the anime.

There is a reason that there are entire communities filled with analyzing the storyboards of individual episodes. This is because the storyboards are largely and almost entirely the responsibility of Toei staff. If the implication is that Toriyama sits there and goes through every episodes storyboard and makes adjustments, that is just patently wrong. If the implication is that Toriyama will occasionally check in to see give input, then that may be the case. But he most certainly does not craft or "approve" the average Super storyboard.

If Toriyama really did "supervise the anime" in terms of individual storyboards, the animation/production community of this fandom would be blown away, or would have at the very least have MENTIONED this. But guys like AnimeAjay, for instance, have never ONCE even commented on this, hence why, until Toriyama straight up states that he saw a storyboard for an episode, didn't like it, and sent it back to be fixed, I don't put stock into this idea.

And even still, I was talking about the writing, not the storyboards. These are two different arguments we're having.

Artorias wrote:
That is for the manga. Toriyama has NOTHING to do with the anime storyboards. Nothing. That's all on Toei.

It's really cute how you ignored the quote from the interview I posted.

Q: I've heard Toriyama has a direct role into your work, right?

T: Not only mine: he supervises every storyboard related to the Dragon Ball universe.

There's also this:
Toriyama straight up says that he supervises the anime.

There is a reason that there are entire communities filled with analyzing the storyboards of individual episodes. This is because the storyboards are largely and almost entirely the responsibility of Toei staff. If the implication is that Toriyama sits there and goes through every episodes storyboard and makes adjustments, that is just patently wrong. If the implication is that Toriyama will occasionally check in to see give input, then that may be the case. But he most certainly does not craft or "approve" the average Super storyboard.

If Toriyama really did "supervise the anime" in terms of individual storyboards, the animation/production community of this fandom would be blown away, or would have at the very least have MENTIONED this. But guys like AnimeAjay, for instance, have never ONCE even commented on this, hence why, until Toriyama straight up states that he saw a storyboard for an episode, didn't like it, and sent it back to be fixed, I don't put stock into this idea.

And even still, I was talking about the writing, not the storyboards. These are two different arguments we're having.

> Anime staff says he supervises
> Toyotaro says he supervises (going so far as to say he supervises EVERY storyboard related to the Dragon Ball universe)
> Toriyama says he supervises
"Toriyama has nothing to do with the anime at all!"

I guess according to you Toriyama, Toei, and Toyotaro are all liars. And you know, half of a storyboard is the story. You know... writing? And he DID say that he feels he has to correct something every time he sees one of Toei's storyboards because he didn't like it.
Clearly this is a fruitless discussion if you're gonna see evidence and choose to go "NUH-UH!" and ignore it.

Nia wrote:
> Anime staff says he supervises
> Toyotaro says he supervises (going so far as to say he supervises EVERY storyboard related to the Dragon Ball universe)
> Toriyama says he supervises
"Toriyama has nothing to do with the anime at all!"

I guess according to you Toriyama, Toei, and Toyotaro are all liars. And you know, half of a storyboard is the story. You know... writing? And he DID say that he feels he has to correct something every time he sees one of Toei's storyboards because he didn't like it.
Clearly this is a fruitless discussion if you're gonna see evidence and choose to go "NUH-UH!" and ignore it.

Well for starters, I don't think Toriyama is a liar, but I certainly don't put much stock into what he says these days. But anyways, even ignoring that, this comes down to a difference in interpretation. You are interpreting that quote from Toriyama to mean that he consistently supervises and directly approves of every storyboard. I am interpreting that quote as him peeking into the production once in a while and offering his input into what he does and doesn't like. So yes, I was wrong to say he has "NOTHING" to do with the anime . But my basic point still stands that he does not have nearly as much input as ZenkaiBoosts was stating.

I am not in any way denying that evidence. My argument is that, since I follow the animation/production community in this fandom, I am familiar with the behind the scenes process somewhat. And I have to this day never once heard anyone in that community, a community filled with knowledgeable individuals who know their shit and do their research, mention that Toriyama frequently alters or approves the average storyboard. Therefor, I am inclined to assume that there are multiple interpretations of this interview and those sources.

Last edited by Artorias on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Yeah I really hated Jirens power up. He feels completely the same as before, if not actually weaker than he was when he first started fighting.

Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!

Spoiler:

Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.

Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.

If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.

An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.

I legit think we're experiencing the creation of a meme within this community that will last for decades. The new and improved modern day, "5 minutes" meme. This whole "I'm out of stamina" *powers up to full power literally seconds later* is beyond parody now. All I can do is shake my head and laugh at this point.

SupremeKai25 wrote:

GreatSaiyaJeff wrote:

SupremeKai25 wrote:How did Android 17 self-destruct his body? Wasn't the explosive device of 17 removed at the end of the Cell arc?

Whatever. This episode is the Zamasu's arc (ep. 65-66) all over again. The protagonists should not be able to fight on-par with the superior antagonist, but somehow they can.

True, he doesn't have the device in him but he probably took note from Vegeta. Just used his own power to self destruct.

So he learned that technique in only 1 minute? Wow... that's... that's astonishing, i mean... that's unbelievable! He's even better than Trunks, who learned the Mafuba in 5 minutes and successfully used it against Future Zamasu!

I don't really think you need to "learn" the ability to blow yourself up. Vegeta just pulled it out of his ass in the Buu arc, as did Chiaotzu (correct me if I'm wrong, can't remember if that was a previously established thing for him).

However, I think this is actually just a coincidence, as I believe that the writers were going for the idea that 17 used the bomb, and they just genuinely forgot that he got it removed. So they got lucky with the fact that self-destruction has been done organically before.

Last edited by Artorias on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.