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I'm afraid my issue is exactly if the person can project energy without touching or not and would be happy to call him on it as i have done with people here in China. So far, for some strange reason it only seems to work on their students!

Henry Wang's group has a reputation that is a lot closer to that of a cult than anything else. Hence the fairly obvious cooperation between teacher and student.

Here's an old video of Ma Yueh Liang, who had a fairly good reputation as a fighter when he was younger.... but note the over-deference from his student (good push-away, though). Ma could generate a lot of power without seeing the shoulders so involved like you see with Wang's side pushes.

I never met Ma Yueh Liang, but I saw his son, Ma Jiang Bao, in Holland once. They're both recognizably of Mongolian origin (not Han Chinese), but what has caught my eye about them is that they appear to use some sort of qigong that really expands and strengthens their middle. Up close with MJB I was struck by this. And of course the ability to send someone away with little movement us directly related to the power of the abdominal region, in the qigong sense.

Mike, can you elaborate on how that physically functions? Especially when we see the opponent touching the forearm and being forcibly repelled with very little movement of the arm?

The power doesn't originate in the arm, so the arm motion is not really important. And yes, I'm dodging a more complete answer, but each part of the answer would require reference to other things that also need explanation and other methods of conditioning, so I'd be landing myself in a quagmire.

I'm afraid my issue is exactly if the person can project energy without touching or not and would be happy to call him on it as i have done with people here in China. So far, for some strange reason it only seems to work on their students!

I have read and heard this too. I read a Tai Chi magazine talking about this. And one of the major points was that it works on their students. This is just something I read. This may lead to the understanding of where that statement comes from:

From the article Mr. Yap posted about Henry Wang's no touch, "If we, as his students, choose to be insensitive and not respond to Master Wang’s energy, it is possible to resist it. But there is no point in such an attitude. The purpose of tai chi for us is to increase our body awareness and sensitivity, develop chi energy, and to improve our health."

Then we have to understand exactly what "projected energy" means from the Chinese Internal Martial Arts. "Projected energy" say is a translation of Jing. Jing has many forms or categories such as Tzeh Jing translated in many ways. One translation is Adopting power. Whereas, others are "taking," "borrowing" and all the related Thesaurus entires dependent how the Chinese word is initially translated. Point being it's confusing to know what information is being communicated by the phrase "Projected energy."

English speakers when we first hear the word "Jing" we have no idea what that means. We are told something like it is "Projected Energy" then we think that means some invisible visually undetectable defeating force coming out of someone's extremities. And the CMA will say it is from developing Qi Gong and we start all over again with trying to figure out what that means.

But, in this situation I think we have students completely convinced of said abilities, which I don't know are valid or not, in such a way that it clearly defines what Master Wang's "projected force" really is. Which explains why it works so well on his students. Therefore, giving credence to the common statement, 'that it only seems works on the master's students."

The "jin" we're talking about (BTW, it's often spelled "jing" when used as a modifier, e.g. "jieh-jing") means essentially a 'trained force skill', something like a 'force vector'. It's the same force that is at the heart of the "ki tests", "kokyu throws", and so on. You train the release of those forces in conjunction with training the body via breathing-techniques/conditioning (aka "qigongs").... hence saying something like "breath throw" (kokyunage) is pretty accurate. You can see how silly this has become with some of the posted understandings about how kokyu gets mangled in definitions of 'breathing'.

A lot of the terminology had practical origins back in the old days. A "kong jing" (empty-force) skill originally was a legitimate study facet in martial-arts. You make a careful feint and your opponents reacts by moving in a certain direction... i.e., you make the technique work by affecting the opponent's ki/qi. E.g., a "ki throw". With only a little misunderstanding, a "ki throw" morphs into the ridiculous very quickly.

Rather than stay in a fixed position when an opponent hits you (if you absorb his potentially damaging blow, you "absorb his ki", in a negative sense), you should simply hop or move with the blow. This is a very logical tactic, but it has morphed in some systems (particularly in southern China) to where at the slightest cue the student bounces obligingly away. Anyone who doesn't bounce to some teachers' slight cues "hasn't developed the proper sensitivity".

And so it goes. The ability to release a lot of power is related quite naturally to being able to generate a fair amount of power without much overt movement. This makes for great demonstrations, but it has to be seen for what it is... a minor facet of the broad range of body training/conditioning that is in a full-blown martial art. As soon as I see some 'teacher' and his students spending a lot of time playing too much "bounce-away", "no-touch", etc., games, I tend to write them off.

Cult like followings are very easy to develop in martial arts. Many new students have confidence issues from the start (possibly the reason they are starting martial arts) and thus are easy to manipulate with promises of power and strength.

Once you get two or three of them, the rest fall in line by simply not wanting to be the odd man out in the group. You fall down because if you didn't you would get funny looks from your "friends" and kicked out of the group. Eventually you believe you are seriously getting knocked down and start to pass on the lie as truth. Next up comes making excuses when you start to try to show your skills to others and eventually the cycle restarts.

It's a shame that Wang let the "no-touch" stuff with his students become what he's most known for. His hands-on free-form tuishou and applications skill is actually pretty decent--although I don't know how much of that he's doing anymore.

It's a shame that Wang let the "no-touch" stuff with his students become what he's most known for. His hands-on free-form tuishou and applications skill is actually pretty decent--although I don't know how much of that he's doing anymore.

Interesting isn't it?
Ego can kill you. I prefer the healtheir wrestlers type of ego; one born of confidence from training in opposition. "When you lose you still win." Players like LCD who turned down a position as a rep, to train and routinely put himself out there in Japan and n China to test his stuff against jujutsu, judo, Daito ryu and Aikido, as well as western wrestlers, and other ICMA. Then we have Chen bing, Joe Chen, Sam Chin and others who are willing to "play" outside of push hands.
Dan

The "jin" we're talking about (BTW, it's often spelled "jing" when used as a modifier, e.g. "jieh-jing") means essentially a 'trained force skill', something like a 'force vector'. It's the same force that is at the heart of the "ki tests", "kokyu throws", and so on. You train the release of those forces in conjunction with training the body via breathing-techniques/conditioning (aka "qigongs").... hence saying something like "breath throw" (kokyunage) is pretty accurate. You can see how silly this has become with some of the posted understandings about how kokyu gets mangled in definitions of 'breathing'.

A lot of the terminology had practical origins back in the old days. A "kong jing" (empty-force) skill originally was a legitimate study facet in martial-arts. You make a careful feint and your opponents reacts by moving in a certain direction... i.e., you make the technique work by affecting the opponent's ki/qi. E.g., a "ki throw". With only a little misunderstanding, a "ki throw" morphs into the ridiculous very quickly.

Rather than stay in a fixed position when an opponent hits you (if you absorb his potentially damaging blow, you "absorb his ki", in a negative sense), you should simply hop or move with the blow. This is a very logical tactic, but it has morphed in some systems (particularly in southern China) to where at the slightest cue the student bounces obligingly away. Anyone who doesn't bounce to some teachers' slight cues "hasn't developed the proper sensitivity".

And so it goes. The ability to release a lot of power is related quite naturally to being able to generate a fair amount of power without much overt movement. This makes for great demonstrations, but it has to be seen for what it is... a minor facet of the broad range of body training/conditioning that is in a full-blown martial art. As soon as I see some 'teacher' and his students spending a lot of time playing too much "bounce-away", "no-touch", etc., games, I tend to write them off.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Mike thanks for providing details. In my case with Jing explanations it is easy to pull from a books. I can sound really good when I have my books, or rewords things to sound like I know more deeply about things than I do when it comes to Chinese Martial Arts. But, I don't do that. I understand Jing on an overview level in the Chinese Martial Arts. Thanks for fleshing that out.

In my case with Jing explanations it is easy to pull from a books. I can sound really good when I have my books, or rewords things to sound like I know more deeply about things than I do when it comes to Chinese Martial Arts. But, I don't do that. I understand Jing on an overview level in the Chinese Martial Arts. Thanks for fleshing that out.

Well, "Jin" is what Koichi Tohei is doing in his ki-tests, so anyone who uses "ki strength" or whatever nom de jour you want, understands basic jin. If you use jin strength in conjunction with someone else's input force, you have "aiki". It's that simple. Of course there are levels of skills and applications that can be developed; think of being able to play chords on a guitar versus the rasgueados and arpeggios of a master. Plus there are levels of body conditioning that assist jin skills. My point is that all of these things are the same things, if you understand enough to get past the nomenclature confusion and the fog of the 'experts' and teachers who don't really know anymore than most of the students about the subject. I.e., don't take any wooden nickels.

...From the article Mr. Yap posted about Henry Wang's no touch, "If we, as his students, choose to be insensitive and not respond to Master Wang's energy, it is possible to resist it. But there is no point in such an attitude. The purpose of tai chi for us is to increase our body awareness and sensitivity, develop chi energy, and to improve our health." ..."

Hi Philip,

I think the statement also applies to Yoshinobu Takeda's teachings - just substitute "tai chi" with "aiki" and "Wang" with "Takeda".

I am not sure and I am going to say it is so or not. The feats Wang does could be actual, if he is or isn't credible. I don't want to walk into that debate unless I have experienced it. But....when the students say what Wang student said it isn't something that can be ignored; along with a certain type of testimonials. What is the purpose of doing such feats? If it is to show master of a principle and someone goes over the top to keep people's attention- people do want more as unfortunate as it is audiences are there to be entertained. Is the feat being done in the dojo to inspire, even if it over the top. I think we can over look such things and give a little in that regard. But, is it for me the mentality and perspective, and attitude the students have toward the instructor's skills and abilities. People do believe their own press, and people will believe something that isn't possible to be possible for lots of reasons.

If the principle is there and it is demonstrated in exaggeration without any press that for me is tolerable. But when you have people, rationalizing things as Wang's student than that is a major concern.

I think the statement also applies to Yoshinobu Takeda's teachings - just substitute "tai chi" with "aiki" and "Wang" with "Takeda".

Regards

David Y

Dave with all due respect, with no intention of being argumentative, nor thinking you must agree, and I am not even read you clearly getting your meaning. But here goes.

With Wang my concern was his student's rationalization, and views. In Takeda's case, seeing him just now for the first time on YouTube, he is demonstrating principles, and not professing projecting a some kind of power. Many times do I watch skilled craftsmen with years of experience do things seemly effortlessly. Ever watch a pro float concrete, I mean a guy who has been doing for 15 years, who apprenticed? It is amazing how similar such a man and Takeda move. It is as if the pro floater wasn't touching the cement at all with this floater. As if the water magically rose to the surface of the concrete. Watching such a guy work is magic.

Or better yet, watching Tiger Woods or some pro golfer who has the best swing in the world, btw I don't play much golf, would be par with Takeda. In contrast to someone saying they can hit a ball without hitting it with a club and the caddy rationalizing it the same way as Wang's student is something of a concern.

I see Takeda showing Aikido techniques, where as I see Wang demonstrating a feat. It isn't an issue for me if both men are actually effective. Again, it is the state of mind of the students.

I am not sure and I am going to say it is so or not. The feats Wang does could be actual, if he is or isn't credible. I don't want to walk into that debate unless I have experienced it. But....when the students say what Wang student said it isn't something that can be ignored; along with a certain type of testimonials. What is the purpose of doing such feats? If it is to show master of a principle and someone goes over the top to keep people's attention- people do want more as unfortunate as it is audiences are there to be entertained. Is the feat being done in the dojo to inspire, even if it over the top. I think we can over look such things and give a little in that regard. But, is it for me the mentality and perspective, and attitude the students have toward the instructor's skills and abilities. People do believe their own press, and people will believe something that isn't possible to be possible for lots of reasons.

If the principle is there and it is demonstrated in exaggeration without any press that for me is tolerable. But when you have people, rationalizing things as Wang's student than that is a major concern.

Cult like followings are very easy to develop in martial arts. Many new students have confidence issues from the start (possibly the reason they are starting martial arts) and thus are easy to manipulate with promises of power and strength.

Once you get two or three of them, the rest fall in line by simply not wanting to be the odd man out in the group. You fall down because if you didn't you would get funny looks from your "friends" and kicked out of the group. Eventually you believe you are seriously getting knocked down and start to pass on the lie as truth. Next up comes making excuses when you start to try to show your skills to others and eventually the cycle restarts.

Just one more reason why being a skeptic is so important in life.

Don,
These are some excellent points. I'm currently looking into starting a cult; and am wondering if you had any other ideas along these lines.
Thanks,
Josh "Hodjie" P.