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I would vote against a dealer rating system as well. I have met dealers who would make this into a huge game. They would have their employees or spouses or neighbors all write glowing reports -- and yes, even some legit customers. There would also be those who would go the next step and create fictions regarding their competition.

Originally posted by TGG: Frank, I am one of your member/lawyers (lawyer/members?). I very much enjoy your site. It sounds like you're already getting good legal advice, so I'll just add a thought or two for us all to keep in mind...

1. There are way too many lawyers.2. It doesn't cost an agressive competitor much to turn and aggressive but ethically challenged laywer loose with claims of defamation/libel.3. Most allegations of defamation/libel are made for purposes of chilling the competition, nothing more.4. The practicalities of taking a libel/defamation case to trial are considerable...not the least of which is proof of damages. How is your hypothetically injured dealer going to prove to a jury that his business has been damaged by this forum?5. Given the practicalities/difficulties with libel and slander cases, 99% of the demand letters that go out are not precursors of litigation. They are intended to (i) chill the market from saying anything contrarty to the letter writer's interests and (ii) cause the recipient to spend money on lawyers. Judging from this thread, your angry dealer has achieved what he intended to achieve.6. I wouldn't change a thing. You're doing great and your posters already seem to be very moderate in their language. TGG [/b]

Thanks TGG,

I'm working now on a better disclaimer than the short one on our landing page (yes, there is one in the boxes at the top of the page). I'll also work up some posting guidelines.

I'd also like to warn anyone that pulls this on us again that we will in fact see them in court, and sue for damages, court fees, and legal fees, not to mention publish the entire damn thing on our web site and the other piano user groups.

I will amass the considerable number of legal professionals we have among our members, contact the civil liberties groups, and alert the media.

And I'd be willing to bet we could get a large number of our members, friends, and visitors to join us in the case (and likely come up with more people willing to testify).

They might still win the case, but I can gaurantee thousands of prospective piano customers will know how they choose to do business.

I'm tired of this. I don't like being threatened and I don't like anyone trying to gag our forums!

It has been mentioned here that businesses need to be able to protect themselves from misinformation being spread, and I agree.But who is protecting the consumers from less than honorable businesses? If we stop posting negative feedback we aren't doing our job (and WE are being less than honest).

If someone has a legitimate gripe, they are welcome to post it, or contact me personally (not through their lawyer's), otherwise they had better back off!

I'm an attorney too. I play the piano and read this web forum to forget about the stresses of the legal world, but I guess the law has invaded this portion of our lives. Defamation is a very old cause of action which was part of the common law we adopted from England. Defamation lawsuits are still viable although truth is a defense. That means if you post something that is true, you can ultimately win a lawsuit. It doesn't mean you can't be sued. I would agree with pretty much everything that TGG just posted, as it doesn't seem like it would make any sense for this piano dealer to follow through with its threat. I would urge that posters use caution when posting, as they may expose themselves to defamation claims. Always post facts, as opposed to simply smearing. If a salesperson does something particularly unethical, instead of calling him a sleaze, set forth exactly what your experience was, and let the reader decide for himself. A little self-serving disclaimer would also help to keep Piano World up and running. Anyone can threaten lawsuits these days. It is one of society's biggest weaknesses. I know that this web forum was extremely valuable to me in learning more about the piano, and in helping to make an intelligent choice in my piano purchase, and in learning more about musicianship. I would hate for it to be gone due to expensive litigation. It may not sound brilliant, but if everyone is just a little bit cautious before they post, it will help keep this forum alive.

You've got moxie, chutzpah, and more than likely, law on your side. I'm sure the great advice from lawyers here have helped you take that stand. You have now responded to the complainant and enlightened them to the fact that 'your' back-bone, ethics, and belief in the work you do, can not be brought down to the same suspect level of this retailer. Feels good, doesn't it? It's a feeling that a person on the wrong side of ethics/fair-play can't have.

Great! Exactly the thing to do! I am very glad your position has changed from the SoftSoft situation. If you don't fight for your correct position, you announce to the world that you fold at the first letter from a lawyer.

Incidentally, as a trial lawyer myself, I agree completely with TGG's post (and others) who correctly point out the difficulties inherent in a libel action against the person running an unmoderated public board. The letter came not because anything wrong was done, but because the dealer didn't like to read negative commentary. That's just too bad.... The dealer could, of course, sue the poster if the poster posted falsehoods about the dealership. This would be a more viable case, but even then the problems of proving damages still exist.

Your board is great. We all owe you a debt of thanks (and more should you need it!) for keeping this place as it is.

Originally posted by Piano World:I'd ... like to warn anyone that pulls this on us again that we will in fact see them in court, and sue for damages, court fees, and legal fees, not to mention publish the entire damn thing on our web site and the other piano user groups.

I'm tired of this. I don't like being threatened and I don't like anyone trying to gag our forums! [/b]

Frank,

This is so much better than looking for ways to "fix" something that, all things considered, is working surprisingly well - just the way it is. BRAVO!!

Count me in for moral and financial support and whatever other type of support you might need. You are taking an honorable and courageous stand. And you have many many friends here who will stand by you on this because of who you are and because we all have a stake in this. I might not like some of the things that are said on this forum and I might even worry sometimes about the motives behind some of the posts on it, but I will fight with you to the end to defend it.

I am very new to the forum but I can tell you I enjoy it considerably and it has been very helpful in my purchase of a new piano.

With that said, I can also say it feels like I have been told more lies shopping to buy one piano than I have been told in the 39 years I have been alive. A forum like this with open negative and positive opinions needs to exist. I found two honest piano dealers while shopping for a piano.

I really do not understand the dealer's complaints. They have an open forum where they can rebut any comment made about them in as much detail as they would like. They certainly did not have that opportunity when I had my telephone consultation with a piano tech and with Larry Fine.

Next it will be the manufacturers. What if Kawai, Yamaha, Moog, or any of the other manufacturers did not like my opinions of their products. Are they going to threaten to sue also. If all anyone can say are good things, then the forum will become the equivalent of some of the magazines I see where the reviews of every product reviewed are always good or great. I don't read any such magazines any more because I would also like to hear some of the negative points in a review.

The free speech that need protection the most is that free speech which some may not like. It is easy to protect free speech when that which is spoken is readily accepted by everyone. It is much more difficult to protect free speech for an idea that no one likes. Yet, that is the freedom that most needs protection.

I am a lawyer and I joined the forum to contribute to this thread. There have been many useful suggestions made already so I don't need to say too much. I agree with TGG's advice and also with the suggestions by Cindysphinx.

It is a very useful means of defense to post threatening letters from lawyers. The store concerned would likely back off very quickly if they knew that every move they made would be publicised on a popular forum. Here are some examples where letters have been posted to reveal what would normally go on privately:

One last piece of advice. In order to avoid incurring costs in future why don't you (with the help of your lawyer) formulate a standard letter that you could send yourself to respond to future threatening letters. You could use the letter that your lawyer is sending to the particular store concerned as a basis.

I don’t have a solution to the problem described above, but I want to comment on the (dealer name deleted) dispute.

My recollection is that someone went to the dealer, left a check as a deposit on a piano, then telephoned later in the day to cancel the purchase. One thing about the post struck me: that the buyer was told that the person with whom he or she was speaking on the phone had no authority to cancel a sale in that manner, but the buyer said something like, “I said that I considered it cancelled.” If the poster, in describing his or her own position, would admit to having made a statement that seemed to me to be somewhat high-handed, I wondered if the poster might have been even more rude on the telephone than that statement might suggest. We all tend to put ourselves in the best light when describing any dispute in which we are involved, so I didn’t expect that we would necessarily hear the dealer’s side represented accurately by the poster.

The vast majority of subsequent posters were on the side of the original poster, and it seemed to me that a lot of venomous comments were made in the process.

We might fault the dealer for not allowing the purchaser to back out of that sale, but we should at least recognize that the dealer probably had the law on its side.

Consider this possibility: that I want to buy a piano, visit seven dealers in one day, and find that there is at least one piano at each location that “sings to me.” I leave a check as a deposit at each of those locations. Assume, further, that at every one of those locations, someone arrives after I have left, loves exactly the piano that I liked, but is told that there is a deposit holding that piano. Later that day, I decide which of the seven pianos would best suit me, and I call six dealers to cancel the sale I initiated with my having left that deposit. Those six dealers not only don’t have the sale they thought they had made, but they have lost a potential customer in the disappointed would-be buyer who was told that the piano he liked was spoken for.

I think that the law should protect a dealer from such a customer, no matter how unlikely the situation I have described.

I know that I’m in the minority here, but I think it’s regrettable that a forum such as this one really offers no protection to a dealer – and I’m NOT speaking here of the unnamed dealer we are referring to in this thread – who may be totally reputable, but whose interaction with one customer is represented only in a post by that customer, who obviously has an axe to grind.

I understand where you're going, NorthAmerican. In the infamous incident with [dealer name deleted] the dealer actually posted here to defend itself, and its version of events was unconvincing, to say the least.

I don't think we have a situation where the forum offers no protection to a dealer. The dealer has all the protection it needs -- the ability to come here and tell its side of the story, letting the forum members and prospective customers decide what to believe.

In this short lived thread (I pulled it), 4 different members advised staying away from a particular dealer, even giving a specific example why. Three of the members are long time posters, and not given to raising false alarms.

Granted, it was their opinions, and more specific examples may have helped support the advice. But part of the purpose of a public forum is to be able to express your opinions, and for others to respond/refute.

We might fault the dealer for not allowing the purchaser to back out of that sale, but we should at least recognize that the dealer probably had the law on its side.

I know that I’m in the minority here, but I think it’s regrettable that a forum such as this one really offers no protection to a dealer – and I’m NOT speaking here of the unnamed dealer we are referring to in this thread – who may be totally reputable, but whose interaction with one customer is represented only in a post by that customer, who obviously has an axe to grind. [/b]

NorthAmerican,

As a dealer, I appreciate that you understand that it is possible for this forum to unfairly cast a negative light on one dealer (or piano or manufacturer) or another. I have made this point here myself several times. However, in practice, the balance here is really quite good - aided by excellent self-policing and the desire in practically all of the regulars to be as fair as possible to everyone. When a serious accusation is made, it is aggressively scrutinized so that if there is any degree of unfairness on the part of the accuser, it is quickly revealed. People here do not lightly accept unfair and unfounded accusations. That's why this forum works; it's why so many people enjoy staying or visiting here.

As to your thought that a dealer might have the law on his side in accepting a deposit and then refusing to refund it a few hours later, this was discussed here extensively. In a nutshell, the overwhelming sentiment was that, at least in NY, the law is probably not on the dealer's side. No goods were delivered or special ordered and 72 hours had not passed. But the point that everyone kept coming back to is that the law is not the issue; the issues are common decency, fair play, and the fact that reputable piano dealers give their customers as much slack as possible - even when the law is on their side.

Agree with Irving. Anyone in business will have a bad experience - or perhaps a bad customer. We should never assume that particularly a new poster is telling gospel. At best it may be the truth as they know it. At worse, it may be outright falsehoods that besmirch the reputation of an honorable person.

I think this board has some continuity and diversity of backgrounds that we can deal with these kinds of issues.

At the same time, some dealer's business practices should see the healthy rays of sunlight - and be seen for what they are. This forum helps that cause.

This whole issue is a perfect example of lawsuit abuse and needs to be addressed at a much higher level than this forum. Lawsuit abuse is a serious problem within all of America.

This cease and disist order could be an infringement on freedom of speech and is certainly an act that will hamper free exchange of information. A lawsuit like this may even border on malicious prosecution and certainly is a total waste of time for all involved.

The dealer that contracts an attorney to battle all the isssues that the dealership has caused ( obviously poor business ethics in dealing with the public) is probably guilty of any accusations made on this forum. The truth be told!

It is a shame (for fear of further lawsuit threats) that we can not expose the dealership and run Him right out of Dodge.

Is there an original thread somewhere in the past forums that lead to the current "threat" letter? I'm a little lost as to what was said to whom. Also,will I be sued for asking to republish the original thread? Just curious. Eric

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Eric Frankson"Music comes first from my heart, and then goes upstairs to my head where I check it out." - Roberta Flack

Well, sign me on. This forum is both incredibly insightfull as well as entertaining. With thousands of members, Frank has alot of political backing. I wouldn't want to get in the ring with him. In fact, I'd bet on him.

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Eric Frankson"Music comes first from my heart, and then goes upstairs to my head where I check it out." - Roberta Flack

Originally posted by Piano World:In this short lived thread (I pulled it), 4 different members advised staying away from a particular dealer, even giving a specific example why. Three of the members are long time posters, and not given to raising false alarms.[/b]

Oh, THEM! (Now I know who Frank's talking about. )

This sort of behavior seems hardly out of line with the rest of the practices of that particular operation, if what I've heard about it bears any resemblance to the truth (which I have no reason to doubt, as it's been corroborated on numerous occasions). Well, you can guarantee that I certainly will have a MUCH more vehement denunciation to make if I am ever asked my opinion about that particular dealership. And it really is saying something when some poor schlub like me, all the way out here in the Midwest, knows about this dealer's reputation!

It seems to me that the outfit that had their lawyer send Frank a nasty-gram isn't all that business savvy. What better way to have your already shaky reputation sullied even further than by behaving in a truly reprehensible manner in response to bad press. Can they honestly believe that this action somehow HELPS[/b] their cause? What a laugh riot!

A firm usually gets a bad reputation for a reason. If any act needs to be cleaned up, it's not the Piano World posters -- it's the dealership in question. They are sorely mistaken if they believe they can salvage what's left of their reputation by telling people, essentially, to shut up or pay up. Not only are they threatening Frank B., they're threatening anyone who posts an opinion here on Piano World.

Cease and desist my @$$! Any dealer that pulls this kind of asinine stunt deserves to be exposed for the sleazebags they are.

In my opinion, of course! :p

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Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens