Hubpages penalises for duplication, not for plagiarism. While it's against the law to plagiarise (according to copyright laws) Hubpages can only act on it if the author of the work submits a DCMA.

I'm sure you're already aware of all that Isabella, but my post is for the benefit of anyone new who are not yet aware of the rights and responsibilities of HubPages Inc.

The only other thing I'm concerned about is that it seems that you want to pick another fight in the forum by what seems to be a throwing down of the guantlet in your last two paragraphs by the tone implied in the use of your words.

PLR articles allow people to republish as is, rewrite if they wish. Some allow people to publish without mention of the original author.

There have been times when people, and I'm not talking about this forum, have accused others of having republished work without giving proper credit. And they have assumed that the highest ranked page at Google is the originating author.

Sometimes this is correct, however there are times when a PLR article can proliferate around the net, and to accuse a person to have stolen it when they have paid for it is not right.

I'm not saying this is the case here.

Just outlining the difference.

And as I said, HubPages will penalize for duplication but they are not here to police plagiarism. The onus is on the owner of the copyright.

Darkside - If you'd read my original post, you'd know I said "copying free license text and passing it off as your own". Copying *anything* and passing it off as one's own is the very definition of plagiarism, whether it's free for the copying or not.

Given your rude conduct in my other thread and your antagonistic behavior in this one, I hope you'll forgive me for ignoring you from here on out. Your comments are rarely relevant to my questions, anyway; this thread being no exception. Thanks for understanding.

If you read my original reply I was also addressing the fact that you've picked another fight in a new thread.

You made your point clear of your venomous dislike of other forum members in the other thread, and you couldn't let go of it with repeated posts in that thread. Now you feel the need to drag it into other threads.

I'll make a note of it that when you don't understand something that you write it off as "antagonistic behavior".

So.. what's the hubpages view on copying free license text and passing it off as your own? I'm sure it must be frowned upon - but somehow a lot of these hubs go under the duplicate content radar. Id post links, but don't want to give them attention.

I definitely vote for that possibility that Paul mentioned about being able to flag for duplicated content.

I'm curious what exactly is duplication? in the sense that this site uses it in. I agree that people should be able to voice their concerns, and its not so much picking a fight as it is maintianing order and respect amongst the players. She doesnt seem the type to just pick a fight, more so one to point out when someones out of line.. constructive criticism can help other hubbers NOT make that mistake in their dealings with their writing.. I find her information valuable as it shows us what not to do whereby otherwise I'd think someone with a 100 rating was following all the rules and may assume what they do is ok. If you really think about it its the community trying to warn people not to do something thats wrong.. anyone agree with this?

Isabella we would prefer that people did not copy text and pass it off as their own. But, as Ive said in the past and Darkside mentioned -- it is not something that we can practically enforce. What we can do is to lower the HubScore for content that appears to be duplicated, and respond to DMCA Complaints.

We pass every hub that has sufficient text through a duplication measurement system. It isn't a perfect system, but it works pretty well. We've also enabled a flagging mechanism so that you all can let us know about suspected duplicate content. We will give hubs that are flagged as duplicates additional scrutiny. Hopefully this will ensure that most copied content is sufficiently penalized.

Why is it so hard for people to just take an article they'd "byte" or duplicate and just rewrite it in your own words and not only respect the article writer but also you may find you have a better way to explain the data? Most articles are just recycled research anyway, you read in various ways about various topics and integrate it into your knowledgebase (your brain) then you regurgitate and write your own version of that info.. How hard is this? I find it lazy and offensive that someone would just copy past someone else’s work.. Writing is as much a learning process as it is enlightening and fun.. Its a way to reprocess the information you learn all your life into a new and characterized identity(with your aura so to speak)or an imprint of your addition to it (synergy adaptation)..

I actually get a rise out of rebuilding information I've learned and often find new information that helps me synergize a new article that is not only about the same info but it takes the information into a new level of existence, it spawns a new baby article so to speak.. When I write a great article I feel like passing out cigars (so to speak).. Those who would just take others work are not only being uncivil but their robbing themselves the very rewards of writing and adding to the world of information.. I just don't get it.. the other thing is were all individual no two are the same not even twins this also goes for our thought process/format so rewriting another’s work changes it to reflect our individual imprint, you'd think people, as were all looking for validation of some kind in our immortality, would actually strive to put themselves out their in their writing.. Why copy when you can show your own identity/immortality in writing a piece that puts you on the map? just my two cents.

There is nothing respectful about "rewriting" someone else's article. In fact, I'd say it's slimier than plagiarism, because it involves sneakier behavior. There is a reason it's called someone *elses* article.

This isn't hip-hop -- people shouldn't be sampling and remixing other people's writing.

If you have a good idea you ought to be able to write something without the aid of someone else's work, unless you're citing examples and using footnotes. Anything else is just not kosher.

Isabella, you may be surprised to hear that I agree with you 100% on that one.

Sorry if I'm being dense, but can I just ask another question about duplicated content?

A couple of days ago, I read a Hub by a well-known Hubber. It was a long entertaining story, and I was all set to give it a thumbs up, when I got to the very last line which included a link. I followed the link and discovered that the whole Hub had just been cut and pasted. No commentary, no attempt to add any value.

Strictly speaking, that was allowed by the licence on the original material, which was published as free to reproduce, but it makes me feel uncomfortable. And I'm wondering, woudl it be picked up as duplicate content, since the original was published in .pdf format? Should I or shouldn't I flag it, since it's not "illegal"?

It might or it might not, it depends on how widely dispersed the text is on the internet. We try to err on the side of not accusing people of duplication that did not copy their content -- since being falsely accused tends to make people angry. This means we let some stuff that is copied through. Our goal isn't to necessarily ferret out every single instance of duplication, but rather to identify and hinder the chronic duplicators.

Certain types of content, I think, it is ok if they are duplicated -- things like: jokes, the ingredients list for a recipe, and the seemingly author-less stories that get forwarded around by email, etc. We don't really mind if people share these kinds of things with their friends on HubPages as long as they aren't representing themselves falsely as the originator of said content. We may even be willing to remove the duplicate content penalty in certain cases.

Well, when you know something IS duplicated, couldnt you penalize it a lot more than letting it have a 70 something rating? I understand why don't remove them, but surely you can rank them with a number that reflects how inappropriate they are? And Im talking about the obvious ones - like those I sent you??

Isabella -- the greater the penalty we apply the more sure we have to be that we are right. A system that relies on manually checking hubs would free us to apply bigger penalties, but would also require a ton of resources (given that hubs are frequently revised). So, for the time being anyway a less accurate, but automated solution suits us better. As the dupe detector improves, we will increase the penalty correspondingly.

Noble?? It's plain old courtesy, at best. Let's not elevate common decency to the ranks of nobility!

And really, I wouldn't consider that kosher unless the person actually mentioned the author in the hub. And even then, it's still sounds like duplication. I have not seen the hub in question, however, and am only going by what Marisa is saying.

I agree with you, as a writer myself I take it pretty personal when my work is used and duped as someone else’s genius, it feels as though they stole your favorite shoes and ran out of your house without even asking to borrow them.. Or if it’s duplicated and not given credit (even if the link is there but no name credit given) so I understand. I was simply trying to give credit for the effort they DID take, I am a glass is half full kind of thinker.

Also I feel that giving some credit (not always criticizing people like bosses do which drives down moral) while criticizing helps them not to feel so angry that you attacked them (even if they were wrong don’t they deserve the benefit of the doubt that they can mend their ways? Other wise why are you wasting your breath unless to just you’re your anger (what does this do but cause bad feelings amongst the group?) I should say to you (quoting your own words in one post): Be nice. *smiles*

Yelling never solves anything for the guilty, however a kind approach with a list of emendable potentials goes a long way...) helps them to at least listen to what you have to say... especially since what you do have to say is valuable and worthy of their educational needs.

I.e. you tell them, look your stealing someone’s work (say it nicely not so coldly and argumentive) but at least you gave the reader the link to see it wasn’t yours, but couldn’t you have put the authors name their too just to be sure those who didn’t click the link realized who wrote it? I know you know this, I’m not schooling you, I’m but trying to remind you that you come across as an angry woman and rarely do people want to hear what angry words say.. people react to them one of two ways, they walk away to rid their aura of its negative tone, or they yell back which causes bad vibes to develop and bad karma for you..

I noticed growing up when my parents came at me nicely (when I did something I knew was wrong) and listed both credit for what I did do right (example: at least you tried to clean up your mess although you know you weren’t supposed to be in the food etc..) and KINDLY at my level of understanding of Kindly that is, (people have generally different ways of seeing things so you can feel them out with their writing or past posts) told me what I did was wrong and why and what I should have done instead (i.e. ask, put the credit name on the hub etc..) I was more receptive, this was my mother, my father took the other approach and I learned and didn’t even try to learn anything from him, I just called him a jerk, idiot, etc.. He would yell cant you do anything right? Why are you always doing (even if it was the first time ever) this? yell yell yell.. Sometimes yelling isn’t raising your voice its the condescending tone inflicted in your writing.. as passionate people do this very sharply not meaning to sound so "loud" I never and never do take anything he says seriously.. Unless he changes his approach..

I like you but I can't help but wonder why you’re so bitter? You seem like a passionate and thoughtful person but you tend to bring out the fight in (some) people (usually only when you directly speak at them not to them I don’t think you mean to do this by the way but for example in political (what’s his name) you saw he was argumentative and kept provoking him, why?. You said speak your mind but leave insults out of it, but you fail to realize here that insults don’t just come in words but in ways of stringing non combative words together to synergize a combat tone.. I know you mean well and I hear everything your saying (and how your saying it) and personally I get your tone and meaning, but please be more patient and forgiving of others reactions to your tone if it is in fact provoking regardless of how you meant it.. Perception truly is reality is it not?

I'm in no way criticizing you, make no mistake just as you do, pointing out what I see as to help you see it too. Me being a passionate person myself I've had to tone down how I approach people who aren't shall we say, "in sync" with my energy. I really enjoy your hubs however, I've read a few of them when I have a moment, I especially enjoy the energy you can feel when reading them.. Hope this doesn’t annoy you but I felt you needed to know it..

I guess that gives incredible insight into your attitude problem. You seem to know everything and everyone else is flawed.. nice attitude there. second note you can write but can't hack reading? interresting..

You know, since you've just started shite in one of my hubs, and since I won't be publishing any of your comments (ever, so don't bother commenting anywhere else, either) I'll address your smart assed remark right here.

The pot/kettle remark, in case you forgot.

The photos I use always include copyright info when it is available. If it's not, I reference the webpage, if I'm sure they own the copyright. Sometimes I have already paid to use the photos, and use them here instead of elsewhere. Sometimes there's nothing listed, because nothing can be found. Sometimes its free license because it's just that damned old and no one knows where it came from. If someone sees their image on one of my hubs and wants to prove copyright by showing it to me, I'm happy to either credit them or remove it.

LOL, Jerico, you had to break your post into points with bold headings and put some pics to make it readable. Seriously, it is Internet, it has the rules and traditions of its own, and they are different from the book world...

misha I appreciate your concern, I don't know if you read or not but I posted a comment about it being a test run only, I havent begun to post blogs yet I'm prepping them, I left that one there just so I had one posted. I didnt think anyone would really read it but it apparently is getting alot of traffic for absolutely no advertizing or link backs etc.. I realize that it is unfocused and too long, too this and too that. Like I said it was just something I posted from an old rant in my personal blog, I realize the difference of a hub and blog but I'm new and just learned all this, and am working on it.. my work is not this bad when I rebuild it.. I didnt post it as a final hub or anthing actually I put that htere the day I signed up and havent had much time to do much more than read others hubs and learn how this whole network works which I found more important at this jucture to do.. I was going to actually work on this tonight then I got hit by the mean grinch of hubbers so this blew my enjoyment of the service and I decided to take time off to recollect myself before writing..

This prissy mean spirited isabelle with her ranting and opinionated forum entries who thinks the world should bow to her rule.. so I've been a bit sick of seeing her sprinkled all over the forums with her rediculous provoking of bickering.. however.. turn the other cheek applies so I'll get on with my bad self and forgive.. but paul how is it she is allowed to run wild with her provoking posts all over the place... from what I see the only place shes remotely polite and cordial (as she pretends to be well educated) is in her own hub comments to her esteemed fans.. she makes it hard for others who try to communicate here to do so without being all stirred up.. am I to assume if I get high rankings that I can rant and annoy the group all I want without anyone saying anything to me about being cordial either? this is your hub site isnt it? why is everyone but you saying something to her about her attitude and politeness? don't you care about making this a fun and relaxing environment for writers to write and earn without being provoked by the likes of this kind of attitude?

This is a very interesting topic indeed! While I agree with Isabella on her points about duplicate content and the need to create truly original work there is also the problem of fact content and whether this causes lower scores.

If you write an article on a historical figure or a travel article the reader generally wants facts as well as personal opinion. Now you can write those facts down in your own words but they will remain the same from article to article as facts don't change. Will this be considered duplicate content?

Also if you want to quote a favorite author or need to use press statements for a news article is this considered duplication if sources are stated? For magazine articles and books, the author is allowed to use up to 10% of copyrighted material within their work as long as sources are quoted. Does this apply to hub pages?

With regards to photography. I will tell you as a photographer that unless you buy your pics from a stock agency or ask permission from the photographer themselves you can never be certain that the images are free license. Too many people violate photo copyrights all the time. That is why I only use my own pics on my hub pages and even then I will never use my best work. Those pics can only be viewed on my web gallery where they are digimarked and copyright protected. You could unwittingly be using copyright protected images.

I've been following this discussion and just decided to put in my two cents worth (for what its worth) My Parents taught me long ago **that if it's not mine, its not mine**. Taking something no matter what, shoes, books, money, words, hairpins for all that; without permission is stealing. Right versus wrong...can't change, even with advanced technology.regards Zsuzsy

Rfox - I know the rules regarding copyright (i even have a few pics at istock) and the problem with the internet is there are 1000 copies of every photo floating around, and none of them show it. I have spent hours before trying to find it, and had nothing to show but a very bad headache. And most of the people using the 1000 copies dont know who they belong to for the same reasons I mentioned here. Or worse, they put a fansite web address on there as a copyright. There isnt anything to be done about it, unless the owner of the photograph says something. At least if they came forward, they would have a chance for people to finally know where it came from. Or they could tell me to take it down. It certainly wouldnt bother me if they did.

As for the other copyright rules regarding text content, none of them are written as rules for hubpages, I just consider it to be the right thing to do. I would feel pretty smarmy if I even used 1 sentence from someone else and called it mine - which Id be doing if I didnt at least refer to them. Proper footnotes and the like would look silly on most hubs, thats not what Im saying. Just commonsense acknowledgment, thats all.

I find it interesting how she likes to slap other authors stating they have the gall to copy paste and call it their own then she continues to slap them for taking something that’s not theirs without quoting the name (not the link remember) below or on the work, yes she hypocritically posts several pictures of which I know aren’t her work, and not one has any author names (so if theirs no name on it she states, its ok to steal it after all no one knows whose it is and that makes it ok right? I’m only mentioning this because she has sprinkled a lot of outright rude attacks at people for doing what she herself is doing but justifying her actions with ridiculous excuses she’d crucify anyone for using (as they break her own posted comments and copyright rants) if she knows copyright law she knows that its not a flexible law to when she deems it ok to steal pictures, poetry, words whatever its no different because its pictures.. the gall she has in even defending her actions is uncanny!

But because her excuse that the internet did it and made 1000’s of copies its ok, but what about thousands of copies of an authors work, say poems? With no name she’s saying its ok to steal it, but saying pictures are ok because of course shes using pictures this time..) I find it mildly entertaining that she can break all the rules because she can justify her actions with ludicrous rants that defy her own blogs (and I’m tempted to copy past the rants and her bs excuses for why its ok together but I’m not trying to fight with her, just end her bs) but she’s hell bent on giving other authors with lesser offenses the chair for how dare they lower themselves below her esteemed class of writer (after all she does have a real writing job and singing gig so she’s above us all right?) If we put all her insulting posts together we could build a hub about how not to win fans and how to be a hypocrite can we not?

But if that doesn’t take all, its not that that bothers me, that just mildly entertains me to see such amazing arrogance and hypocrisy in swift motion as if no one could see through her schemes.. its the disregard for taking what she dishes out, even politely she refuses to hear others out and instead of explaining herself she simply try's to turn the guilt on others and has the audacity to insult them for doing EXACTLY what she does so predominately in her own hubs!

She did however allow one guy to say EXACTLY what I said to her (which she says she wont allow to print on the hub comment) as two insulting people makes her look bad I assume.. Go check out her hub on vaginal odor (its not the only thing that stinks around here… don’t’ slap me for standing up to your ridiculous attacks on other in this forum..) something and see it (before she takes evasive actions to remove it to save face).. All I can say is theirs one of Isabelle in every corner of every job, business and system you find yourself in and all I can do is say my piece then ignore her.. Shes drunk with power for her 300+ hubs make her think she’s more than she is, at least better than anyone who isn’t complimenting her.. Ridiculous that shes allowed to continuously (I could collect several dozen rants where shes pissed people off) harass the other hub’s, and not once does Paul respond to her rants saying what everyone else is saying.. Including herself...

BE NICE.

Speak your mind but leave insults out.. she keeps insults in and uses cleverly formatted stings of words to look professional in her attacks but common now... what does it take to stop people like this bad press? hmm.. and by the way Isabelle I took your advice in responding to you, I spoke my mind and did not use insults, but apparently you cannot handle being handed a mirror of your ridiculous actions and being shown your being a hypocrite disguised as a “writer with respect for copyright laws and others ability to speak their mind”.. truth is without agreeing to you everyone is a victim of your conspiracy. bottom line, if you dish it at least be man or woman enough to take it or don't dish it. I’m done with this string.. moving on..

Yep. I agree with the acknowledgment part. If you use someone's quote or hard work as a reference they should be credited clearly for their efforts. As for the photo thing it's a difficult call. Technically an original work of art has copyright protection the moment it is produced, the artist doesn't need to attach a copyright statement. However in todays day and age if the artist is not concerned enough about their intellectual property to officially show copyright protection and usage rights then you could suppose they have no issue with it being reproduced and used. Of course that's a personal judgment call which I leave to whoever is writing the hub. As I said before it's an interesting subject. (To me anyway!)

I have wondered about photo copyright, and in fact I've got so paranoid about it that I generally only use photos from sites that specifically allow free usage.

The only exception is where by using the photo, I'm giving the owner a free plug for their website. For instance, I've used a photo from the Ecosilk website and not only included their website under the photo, but also given them a good write-up in the article. I know that's probably not strictly kosher, but I can't see the owner objecting since it can only help her sell her wares. Sounds like Isabella does something similar, making sure she credits the website concerned which can only benefit them.

Jerrico, Isabella and I have crossed swords before, but I would never take any argument on to her Hubs (and I'm sure she would never do so on mine). I really don't think that's appropriate. If we have a complaint about another Hubber, surely there are enough other avenues such as flagging Hubs, thumbs down, emailing the person or if that's not available, emailing HubPages admin.

As for acknowledgment of text - I wouldn't have had the same issue with the Hub I mentioned if the writer had started out by saying "I found this great story on ..... and wanted to share it", or something similar. It was the way the link was dumped down the bottom, with no comment or explanation, that I thought was wrong.

I didnt read anything about not commenting on your hubs, but if thats what you'd like I will kindly ablige.. You have a rediculous way of pissing everyone off then slapping anyone who replies to your rants. However in being the better man i will not reply to nor read your silly hubs relax, I didnt know you asked me not to, i saw your hub read it and complimented you on it (the one on feminine something) i had no idea you were this arrogant and juvenile, although it certainly shows in your ranting about nothing but your own opinions. *poof*

So...yeah...I'm going on vacation starting tomorrow -- I might have time to read all of this starting then...

The real reason I'm posting, however, is about the idea of using pictures. I know we have discussed it in the forums before, but I like reading how others decide to use pictures on their hubs. It is a lot of work to find "free" ones to use, but I've managed to do it. I also use a lot of my own pictures. I must admit that I do have pictures on my hubs that I haven't credited. I'm thinking of slowly starting to go through my hubs to update the pictures (either give credit or replace with something of my own). Mainly because I would like consistency with how I use pictures, but also because I see that a lot of hubbers I respect do it as well.

I think its definitely a good idea, and I certainly try, but Im not going to not use a beautiful photo simply because there are a billion versions of it and no one knows who owns the copyright. I make a serious effort to find it, and if I can't, I can't. I am not using the photos on posters, or selling them in some other capacity, so I'm not really worried overmuch.

This is not, however, comparable to copying and pasting someones text - those people have their name at the top of the text, which distinctly gives the impression they are the author of the text.

Re photos, I do *not* put a little copyright symbol with my name under the photo.

Isabella, I agree there is a difference with the use of pictures (and copyright stuff).

It is frustrating to see copied text.

Marisa, I also think it would be a turn off to only find out at the end of reading something that it was directly taken from somewhere else. On another site I frequent, one user ALWAYS posts jokes, but ALWAYS begins the post by stating something like, "I received these in my email today and thought I would share." Because he is so upfront about where he got the work, I continue reading and always enjoy the jokes.

Jerrico, I suggest you calm down and let it go. You'll achieve nothing except your own banning, more than likely!

We all have disagreements now and then. Some of them do get nasty, unfortunately. But when it gets to that point, further argument isn't going to achieve anything, so grown-ups suck it up and move on. And hopefully, forgive and forget and talk to each other nicely, like mature individuals, when the threads move on to other subjects.

I've let it go, said my peace some people just trigger the passionate writer in me lol, sorry gang for the winded forum posts.. I'll refrain in the future from posting in emotional states *wink*... I was going to delete them all today but apparently theirs no way to do that..

You and me both, Jerrico. I was involved in a major set-to in the threads (please don't go and look!) and I would dearly have loved to be able to delete some of my posts there. In fact, Misha suggested deleting the whole thread and I still think that would've been a good idea!

This thread started out with Isabella raising some very valid points about plagiarism of text and has continued with some good discussions on copying photos. If people want to continue that discussion, maybe it's worth someone starting a new thread and letting this one get buried??

You've had a baptism of fire, Jerrico - it's up to you to put it behind you. I suggest keeping a low profile on the forums for a while, and building a reputation as a good Hubber with some quality Hubs.

I have more faith in the hubbers here that would not judge someone on just a few passionate rants, I didnt say anything I didnt mean but perhaps I should have held back, the problem was I tried to keep it private to just Isabella but she couldnt handle being talked to the way she talked to me so I took it to the streets lol (not a good idea in hindsight).. at any rate I'm a very forgiving chap and have faith that people wont judge me on one weeks activity but on my overall and current performance and hubs.. I will not hide or duck.. but I will keep a lid on my temper when people provoke me.. I don't have anything against Isabella at all, just got a little heated by her tactics.. at any rate I wrote a new blog tonight.. I wrote this a year ago when I was contemplating love and how it makes me feel, and I rewrote it tonight and updated it.. and just released it.. my second blog (so exciting!) I think it is well written, I was even impressed by it and I wrote it a year ago.. I love seeing old stuff I write because as your life and experiences, lessons and growth happen you start to realize the same reading even if you wrote it has new more enlightened meaning and awareness.. hope you guys like it.. and Isabella I humbly appoligise for upsetting you..

You lead us gently, always gently, whereyou will. Your voice is quiet and sublime.You let us rest along the way, and thereyou help us find delights in our own time.You do not shield us from the anguished soul,but show us how to pity and forgiveand through our pity to become more wholein spirit, as you teach us how to live in all our diverse ways. You understatethe passion in your being, yet we discernhow deeply you desire that soon or latein our discipleship we each shall learnthe simplest truth that nature can impart -that we have all of us one human heart.

Let us all calm dowm, not just because it's Christmas, but because it's best.

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