why don't you just read it AGAIN, then, as you didn't get it yet, while some other persons got it perfectly well...! You may not agree with it, that is another thing; but at least you should get the meaning and intention of it right, that would be a minimum. 'Is everything sad going to come untrue?' (Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanficand some other stuff I wrote...leleni at hotmail dot com

even if one limits it to atheists. As Richard Dawkins notes, "There are many people who know, in their heart of hearts, that they are atheists, but dare not admit it to their families or even, in some cases, to themselves....The status of atheists in America today is on a par with that of homosexuals fifty years ago."

who likes to say "Theology is the study of the empty set." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanficand some other stuff I wrote...leleni at hotmail dot com

Jews, Muslims, pagans, Baha'is, Hindus, Jains, Sikhs, etc. with atheists and agnostics. I'm not a Christian, but I do consider myself a theist, though that makes me a bit of an oddball in my Unitarian church.

Maybe it's definitions that are at issue here. Here's my definition of God:

God

Do you think God’s sitting on a throne somewhere, A throne of clouds up in the big blue sky? While all about him choirs of archangels and angels sing, And all his people bowing down, down, down, down. Do you think he’s smiting unbelievers there, With storm and lightning from his throne in the sky? Is he weighing souls in the balance there to save a few, While those who fail go tumbling down, down, down, down, down?

That’s not God at all. Not a king on a throne in the sky. God is blowing through your own sweet life. God is love, God is light, God is truth, God is joy.

You saw God blowing like the wind one day, Blowing through the rainbow flags against the sky. A sweet communion as the people shared the bread of hope, With banners saying “God is love, love, love, love, love.” You saw God shining in your lover’s face, Beaming out through his sweet tender eyes. And in the faces of your family and all your friends, Their eyes were saying “God is love, love, love, love love.”

That’s what God is like. Not a king on a throne in the sky. God is blowing through your own sweet life. God is love, God is light, God is truth, God is joy.

You saw God shining on a mountaintop: Cathedral alpenglow against the sky. And all about you on the emerald slopes and plains below, The crystal air was filled with light, light, light, light, light. You saw God shining on the sea one night. The moon was polishing the dark golden sky. A sparkling moonpath lay across the wave, and far away The broad horizon filled with light, light, light, light, light.

That’s what God is like. Not a king on a throne in the sky. God is shining through your own sweet life. God is love, God is light, God is truth, God is joy.

You saw God shining in a theorem once, A sweet connection that was new to your eye. Familiar patterns in a setting that was fresh and new, It made your heart sing “God is truth, truth, truth, truth.” You saw God dying on a fence one day. Your outrage screamed to the cold autumn sky. You couldn’t rest until you’d told the tale to all the world, Your heart was weeping, “God is truth, truth, truth, truth.”

That’s what God is like. Not a king on a throne in the sky. God is speaking through your own sweet life. God is love, God is light, God is truth, God is joy.

You saw God dancing in a circle once, Beneath the stars in a sweet summer sky. Folk from all the world were holding hands and singing songs, Their dancing feet said, “God is joy, joy, joy, joy, joy.” You saw God shining in an angel’s face, A loving angel in your own mind’s eye. The Lady taught you how to wear her face and do her work, And hear her voice say, “I am joy, joy, joy, joy, joy.”

That’s what God is like. Not a king on a throne in the sky. God is singing through your own sweet life. God is love, God is light, God is truth, God is joy. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanficand some other stuff I wrote...leleni at hotmail dot com

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.

You have just given me the greatest joy I've ever had on these TORn boards, Aunt Dora Baggins, and I have had many over the few years I have been around. Tears kept coming up and flowing out while I was reading your delightful poem/song. If only more people would come out of the old, dire definition, and join into the Love, Light, Truth and Joy that can't possibly be defined, but which you have described and evoked through your very words, so simply and so beautifully... As Aerin points out rightly, even the atheists could agree with what you describe. And yet to embrace and be embraced by That keeps for each of us also the very same utter Sweetness that has been known from time immemorial by those everywhere who went beyond the definitions and clasped the Reality of That, which can be felt as wonderfully personal as impersonal to our experience... If people knew what Bliss is there, waiting to be discovered and enjoyed at any moment of our lives!... 'Is everything sad going to come untrue?' (Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)

If this thread accomplishes nothing more than bringing atheists, agnostics, and other non-Christians out of the closet, it will have been worthwhile.

What does that mean? Assuming one was in a closet (as opposed to just keeping personal business personal until such time as one might wish to share), what is accomplished by bringing one out? A Magpie's Nest Soundtrack Site has been updated with new lyric information for TTT.

to acknowledge being an atheist in the U.S. (the most "religious" of developed nations); people risk alienating friends, family, and business associates simply by doing so (even if they are respectful of others' faith and engage in no discussions or arguments on the matter). No one who aspires to public office can admit to being an atheist, or even an agnostic -- it's pretty much political suicide. If more people who have no religious beliefs were willing to say so, it might in time become more socially acceptable, but it's hard to do when one knows how shocked many of one's friends and relatives will be. Christians, in contrast, seem to feel quite free to publicly identify themselves, with no fear of opprobrium; their religion hardly even seems to qualify as "personal business," in the sense of something to be generally kept to oneself.

by just how different America is becoming from other Western countries. Here's another example.

It takes a lot of nerve to acknowlege being an atheist in the U.S.

I've never felt any embarrassment about my lack of religious belief, and I've never felt any pressure from anyone about it. Some of my family are still devout Catholics (which is the faith I was raised in), but we all respect each other's beliefs, and so do friends and colleagues if religion comes up (which it rarely does). I know a lot of people who are like me, without any faith in organised religion, but open to the deep truths that lie behind them all. When I read Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion recently, I was taken by surprise by the idea of a proselytizing atheist - it seems so strange, to feel that you have to actually speak out to defend a lack of faith, or to try to "spread the word" for atheism! Most atheists/agnostics I know simply accept that for many people faith is a way of giving meaning and structure to what is after all a rather frightening world. Why not use whatever works for you to give your own life meaning?

That's why I chose not to take part in this thread (until now!) - if others find strength and comfort in their beliefs, who am I to try to discourage them? It's not a case of being afraid to speak up, but just of wanting to give everyone the space to believe whatever works for them, in a non-judgemental way. And one of the things I like about TORn is precisely the normally non-judgemental tone of discussions, so different from what you often see on message boards. This thread has been something of an aberration, and one I hope we can move on from, so that we can get back to discussing what we're really here for....and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew, and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth; and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore glimmered and was lost.

Why do people say and/or do bad things in the name of their respective God(s)? What makes them think they know what that highe source wants, and that they are acting as that God wants them to? It scares me. Belinda's law: The chance a computer crashes is proportional to the importance of the document you're working on

I knew the U.S. is a religious nation, but never for a moment suspected that being an atheist could close so many doors an dlock one out of society and jobs like that.

Alas, it's just another instance of the U.S. disappointing me. I won't say my home country's perfect (far from it!), but the way things are now, I wouldn't trade it for the U.S. Belinda's law: The chance a computer crashes is proportional to the importance of the document you're working on

You comments about atheism applies to those whose faith is other than Judeo-Christian especially when it's strays widely from those major faiths. I will say that I am of a faith other than Christian because if I place a name on it, people start making broad assumptions... one of which is usually that I without faith. I have a deep spiritual life and it is physically painful when that feels disregarded or disrespected. I will admit that I am experiencing difficult circumstances. I will admit that the shootings in Virginia (and continued madness of all sorts in my own town) have made life edgier. And I will admit that I have felt quite uncomfortable with this thread in the confines of my own faith. It was a difficult day for me yesterday.

When I read your post, I just wasn't sure what your thinking was but it could be interpreted in various ways and I felt a strong need to know your intent instead of reacting in my head to a perceived or assumed intent. Your clarification has confirmed that you weren't looking to out the pagans, et. al., in a witch hunt sort of way.

Although I have many people who accept me for what I am, I have also been the recipient of some pretty hurtful comments in regards to how I structure my spiritual beliefs. I try to dwell in my own space and not react to much to things that make me uncomfortable. When one walks in a Christian society where Christianity is considered the default way of ordering life, being 'uncomfortable' can happen fairly often. This week, my resources were depleted and I reacted. Although it was not my intent to cause discord on these boards, I also don't feel I did anymore than speak my truth frankly. My only other option would be to shut up or stay away. Since the frank truth is I'm still a bit upset by this, it's probably best I pick up a few of those things on my list and refocus my energies elsewhere. A Magpie's Nest Soundtrack Site has been updated with new lyric information for TTT.

Concerning the U.S. as a "religious nation," it strikes me as highly ironic that a nation founded heavily on the notion of religious freedom is so oppressive to those who depart from mainstream beliefs. The (false) assumption that the U.S. was founded as a "Christian" nation is everywhere and inescapable, from the national to the local level. Even in my community's "civic" choral society (that used to be our name), our director speaks to the group in terms that imply that we all hold to some faith, and at our annual dinner, he says a corporate grace (he used to mention Jesus until he was reminded that we have Jewish members).

Most of my immigrant ancestors arrived in Colonial times. They include members of groups that came specifically because of persecution for their religious beliefs -- in particular, Quakers and Puritans. One of my German immigrant ancestors was the grandson of a woman who was beheaded as a witch. I do count myself fortunate that I don't have to fear having my goods confiscated or being imprisoned or executed for my unbelief, but I find it ironic that the countries my ancestors left are now more hospitable to unbelievers than the "land of freedom" to which they fled.

Magpie, I'm sorry that my original post wasn't clearer; as a professional writer, I strive to be clear above all, and this is a clear case where my discomfort with raising the subject got the best of me. In fact, I think my response was prompted by the same reaction you had to the thread. In my case, I did not wish to get involved in the debate about the appropriateness of calling for prayer (though I very much appreciated your long post on the topic), but I put my two cents in because I was encouraged to see people speaking out about not believing in the efficacy of prayer, whether or not it was appropriate.

Far From Home: I am currently reading "The God Delusion" myself, mainly for the reassurance that I'm not alone in how I think, and I think that is the book's main value. However, I think "proselytizing" for any faith or lack thereof is inappropriate. I don't feel the need to try to destroy the faith of others; I just wish they did not feel the need for everyone else to believe as they do.

A couple of personal incidents: When I was in college, my Lutheran roommate and I discussed religion, and I apparently was so persuasive that (quite without meaning to) I caused her to lose her faith. (I was relieved to hear, a few years later, that she had gotten it back.) Since then, I have tried to avoid being drawn into such discussions, but people can be very insistent about wanting to know "what I believe." I have learned the hard way that it is almost impossible to tell a person of faith that one is an atheist without having that person take offense and commence arguing for the existence of God and the value of religion. It seems there are no terms neutral or objective enough; the mere fact of being an atheist is enough to give offense in and of itself. I have to wonder why believers seem to feel so threatened by the idea that not everyone believes.

On a lighter note: I went to a church-affiliated college (for the acadmics) and was required to take three religion courses in order to graduate. I did enjoy them and get a lot out them, but I was utterly amazed when one professor wrote a note on my term paper suggesting that I consider majoring in religion!!!

On an even lighter note: When I was dealing with my mother's estate and trying to arrange for the sale of her (dilapidated and heavily mortgaged) house, some antiques dealers came by to see if there was anything of interest. As I walked one dealer out to her car, we were talking about the local real-estate market and whether the house would fetch even as much as the balance on the mortgage. She stopped in the driveway, looked heavenward, and began to pray loudly that I would be able to sell the house for a particular dollar amount! I burst into laughter before realizing that she was quite serious!

As I get older I worry less about what I "believe" and more about what I love, and how I behave. I personify God as a woman and talk to her, but I know that's only a symbol I've made up to relate to an abstraction. However, I get a lot of comfort from her. That song I quoted came from a kind of intense vision or dream I had as I was falling asleep and praying, and the words are hers.

Our minister told a story recently about a group of Jewish kids who were asked "How many of you believe in God?" Only a handful raised their hands. But when they were asked "How many of you love God?" they all raised their hands.

There are one or two people in our church who are what I call "fundamentalist atheists", people who act just like fundamentalists from any other religion, who buttonhole people and argue with them. I suspect that they do that more in our church than in the "real world" because it's a safe place, and it's a relief to be able to say at last what's been bottled up inside for a long time. But fundamentalists of any stripe make me uncomfortable.

So I really appreciate the thought you put in before posting, and the sensitivity of your writing. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanficand some other stuff I wrote...leleni at hotmail dot com

I meant nothing personal toward you. I was trying to be witty and sarcastic, and a bit ambiguous. I didn't realize that English isn't your mother tongue; sarcasm and ambiguity are the most difficult things for me to understand when reading in my new second language (Deutsch, sorry, not Fränzösich), so I can appreciate your point. Thanks for the polite request for clarification.

My opinion is that praying for something brings nothing in comparison to actually working toward something. In "petition--bad example", I was trying to make a pun (lame, admittedly) on the idea that my own advice in this case is a bad example, as the pairs of hands working by writing petitions has yielded nothing to date. What would Samwise do?

W.r.t. being an atheist, sure. I think I've gone on about this here in the past--though probably not in Movie. I think I knew that you were a non-theist, actually, or at least assumed you were by virtue of things you've opined on/about in the past.

W.r.t. indoctrination--that's of course a pun on the typical mindset of so many Xtians in the US--that liberals, atheists, humanists, whoever, are *indoctrinated* into a system of beliefs.

As far as fundy atheism goes, I used to always say I was an evangelist rather than a fundy. Of course those who disagreed with me claimed I was a blind fundamentalist. Ah well, I suppose I acted like it, at least.

The religiosity of the TORn community (at least in the last couple of years or so, despite the occasional claim that the religious are all but persecuted here) does make it feel a bit like coming out of the closet.

(Posted hurriedly, as I won't be around for a day or two and wanted to reply before this thread dries up.)What would Samwise do?

I used to be quite adamant in pointing out the logical and even moral superiority of atheism over theistic morality when my then-new world view was newer to me. I was never personally religious, and over time became more secure in my understanding that the world, universe, and especially humanity are best and most easily explained and understood without trying to reckon in a creator/judge/god/hierarchy of supernatural beings. I am as comfortably certain that the various gods of the various religions I've heard about don't or even can't exist, as I am that the sun will "come up" tomorrow, that invisible pink unicorns aren't rummaging around in my attic for carrots, or that little elves aren't pushing the electrons around inside this here computer at which I now sit.

I've written letters to the editor of local newspapers--mostly in response to nonsense written by other readers mis-portraying evolutionary science or whatnot. I even once wrote that maybe the US would be better off with an atheist president, what with Clinton's faults not having been helped by his deep religiosity. (Said "liberal" paper--The Oregonian--edited (without attribution, the ninnies!) my letter to turn it into more of a critique of Clinton than I intended, FWIW.)

Just to ramble on a bit, back in college, when I was first really trying to figure out what I do and don't believe, a discussion with my Catholic scientist dad led him to say "just get over this agnostic stage." Yeah, right, but not in the direction he'd hoped! We'd been discussing whether it made more sense to assume the universe required a creator to have come into existence, or whether the existence of such a creator begged the question of whence *he* came. He stunned me by using the false argument of the origin of life here on the closed system of the earth going against entropy. Stunning because he's a freakin' theoretical nuclear physicist! (Of course the earth is not a closed system, what with that big fireball in the sky providing energy from outside and all.)

Some time later, my dad's second wife suggested that it doesn't matter what religion one has, as long as they have one, because those miserable atheists "believe in nothing". She didn't know much about my personal religious persuasion, but assumed I was a struggling Catholic like my parents. And before anyone jumps to conclusions, my parents' Catholicism has little to do with my religion-free status--none of this, "ah, THAT's why he's a non-believer, his parents' religion turned him off," business please. (Not that I think anyone in this thread would think or say such a thing, but I've encountered this attitude before.)

Mom once said she worried that she didn't do enough to make me religious instead of an atheist. I believe I reassured her enough that she should be glad to have raised me to be able to determine for myself what I believe and what world view fits me best.

I suppose I should try to remember and dust off my old argument for the superiority of moral atheism just for the fun of it.

Wish I had more time to post more thoughtfully on this...gotta go bike off through the woods to a Biergarten for some lunch. What would Samwise do?

She was deeply religious, even though she stopped attending church when I was still a kid, and never showed it much. But in the last decade of her life, she became quite concerned that she would not see a couple of her six kids (me and my youngest brother) in heaven, and she seemed to blame herself for not having made religion a more central part of our family life. She believed that my other brothers were Christians, though not all of them were, simply because they never openly questioned or disagreed with anything she said on the subject. She kept trying to proselytize my youngest brother, but she told him she'd given up on me.

She also let us kids believe that her stepfather was her biological father (and our grandfather), because her parents wanted us to believe it, and she had promised them to keep this secret. She believed that her parents were looking down on her from heaven and would know if she broke the promise. She obviously regretted having made the promise, and did not try to prevent me from discovering the truth from an old family bible after her mother died. When I confronted her with the truth, she said she would tell my brothers herself, but she never did, because of that ill-considered promise. However, did she let one of my brothers see the information I had copied out of the bible (with no explanation); he phoned me with all sorts of questions! What I really regret is never having had the chance to meet her biological father, though he lived until I was 20. (I did meet my mother's half-sister, who was able to tell me a little family history.)