A Tale Of Two Brits
I was in my neighborhood, in my microbe of a car, waiting at a light to make a right turn.

The light turned green, but pedestrians were crossing. The front car stopped for them, per the law and basic good manners, but then the pedestrians had crossed, and the car stayed stopped, and a guy started getting out of the passenger side -- and at a rather leisurely pace. Grrr.

Irate that they were blocking all traffic from getting through the light, I honked. The guy finally shut the car door, and the car scooted through the intersection just as the light turned red, leaving the rest of us to wait for the next light.

The passenger, a tall, ginger-haired Brit standing on the sidewalk, leaned toward my waiting car and started shouting at me for honking. Uh, wrong. I rolled down the window to say something. Couldn't get a word in.

"Did you expect us to run them over?" he berated me, but in more hysterical "mow them down in cold blood in their tracks" language. (Hysteria is very unbecoming to anyone in possession of a penis, I might add.)

"Come on," I said, trying to make some headway over his shouting, "This wasn't about stopping for the people, it was about selfishly deciding everybody else at the light would have to just wait another light because you or the driver were too lazy to pull over in an appropriate letting off place!" And then I called after him, "You're rude, and you're a liar."

Because I'd gotten a note in my mailbox from Gary Musselman, telling me that he needs to see me (if anyone runs into him, tell him I'm looking for him), I went to Starbucks on Main.

Drat. Just missed the table I like. A kid was sitting there. A little girl, about three, I think. Great. Probably more where that one came from. And indeed there were. Daddy came up, with a stroller with a baby in it, and Mommy followed soon afterward. They were Brits, too...and...I don't know if this is common to British children of late, but if it is, we should try to copy whatever it is the Brits do to parent them.

The family sat there, politely, civilly, with minimal squawls and noise from the kids, and minimal mess. Finally, they got up to leave. I wondered if these parents, like so many parents these days, would leave an enormous mess -- crumbs, trash, stuff spilled on the table and floor.

Nope, not them. They cleaned up every bit. Well, almost every bit. And, here comes the amazing part. The little girl was staring at me a bit while she was sitting there, as little girls tend to do. (Red hair? Don't look or dress like a mommy? I dunno.)

Anyway, I'd initially asked her dad to let me know when they were leaving, as I wanted to move to their table. So, maybe it was because she knew I'd be moving over, but there was one tiny scrap of a wrapper on the table -- really just the corner of a wrapper, smaller than a penny -- and as she was walking away with her parents, she looked back at the table, backtracked a few feet, picked it up, and threw it away.

The family had already left before I could think to say anything, but I wanted to run after the parents, tell them what a great job they did raising their kid, ask them how they did it, and basically just throw myself at their feet and thank them.

Amazing, isn't it, how rare this sort of thing seems to be, children who think of somebody but themselves, and actually show it, too.

So you Brits who comment here, or people who have a lot of contact with Brits with kids...is it different over there, the way kids are raised? How? Do you think you're like the French in how you raise your kids? And finally, what do you guys do that we in the USA should be doing?

Comments

I'm a Canadian living in Norway and I find that the children here behave exactly as they do in Canada and the States. I have 3 step-children who had to be taught at the ages 8, 9, and 10 how to pick up after themselves, cover their mouths when they cough or sneeze, and now to say please and thank you. I'm still working on their problem with talking with food in their mouths but that's a cultural thing. I've seen grown adults doing the same things.

Kendra
at December 17, 2007 4:35 AM

I've found that when it comes to kids, it's not where you're from that determines how you act, it's what your parents were taught and are passing on to you. That family could just as easily have been from Oshkosh; what was apparent was that the little girl's parents had a civil and decent upbringing, which can be attributed to their parents. (My daughters did me exceedingly proud yesterday; I had taken them to a holiday party at BF's brother's house and I got so many compliments about their exemplary behavior that I actually blushed. And there were many children there, running around and carrying on, and my 2 were older, yes, but they organized the younger ones into playing quietly together while the adults were talking and visiting. It was quite a pleasant afternoon for eveyone.)

Flynne
at December 17, 2007 6:29 AM

As the father of Brit kids and step-father of Americans, I have cred here.

One battleground, when I acquired the second family, was dinner-time. An English family comes to the table, sits down, eats, makes conversation of some kind, and helps with the associated chores. We do not eat our dinner in cinemas or in our cars. The American kids fought hard against this horrible discipline and, now that they're all grown up, one of them at least has rebelled and abolished dinner-time in her own house.

I'm told, however, that a whole new generation of rude, inconsiderate people has appeared in UK since I've been gone. A whole new word has had to be invented to describe this sub-type of humanity.

Stu "El Inglés" Harris
at December 17, 2007 7:05 AM

Wow. If I went to a Starbucks and sat down to have a coffee and someone asked me to notify him/her when I was leaving because he/she wanted my table, my enjoyment of my coffee would be destroyed. I would feel pressured to leave. I would wonder about the upbringing of a person who could be so absolutely self seeking.

Kerry
at December 17, 2007 7:06 AM

What would you wonder, exactly?

I was raised to not just sit passive-aggressively festering over what I want, but to ask for it politely.

"Would you mind letting me know when you're leaving, and I'll take your table?" is rude? I wasn't hovering over the guy, I was sitting down to eat lunch and read the Sunday LAT. He seemed to not be quite the fragile flower you are, and seemed to enjoy his time with his family and coffee just fine.

Moreover, it happens to be the table I usually sit at for a couple of reasons: I don't like to take the handicapped access table, lest one of the people in the neighborhood with rolling wheelchairs come in. Also, there are a couple tables next to the outlet at Starbucks. I have an extension cord, but I think it's unsafe for others to stretch it across the floor. It's near the wall, so I will only be seated next to one person shouting into a cell phone.

Also, I just like it.

You fester, I'll ask politely.

P.S. Regarding "self-seeking," how silly. If you don't look out for yourself, who does?

Hillel, I believe: "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am for myself alone, what am I, and if not now, when?"

The "Can I have your table when you're done?" thing works IF and ONLY IF it is not followed up by passive-aggressive behavior. Amy doesn't do passive-aggressive; she's just forthright when needs be. :) Besides, I'm guessing that a family with small children is long past the point of feeling rushed during an outing like the one to Starbucks.

marion
at December 17, 2007 7:51 AM

Spot on Amy, A HUGE part of the explanation for rude behavior is that people pay no attention to those around them. Sometimes, just reminding people that they are not alone is all it takes to kick in the social sub-routines. I think it was Jerry Seinfeld who suggested car horns should have a low volume setting equivalent to "ahem, excuse me" for situations like you describe at the traffic light.

martin
at December 17, 2007 7:51 AM

Sigh...my car horn is far too cute. It sounds like it should be on something made by Tonka -- which is not exactly a far cry from the reality of a 1900 lb. Honda Insight.

If there was a "Sigh..." button on my steering wheel I'd use it. Even here in the milquetoast midwest giving a full blast on your horn is an invitation to appear on the evening news (covered by a bloodstained sheet.)

By using a quick knuckle-jab, I can get a not too belligerent chirp out of my horn for those times when the driver ahead of me has failed to notice the light has changed. I always make sure to catch their eye with a wave in case they were just looking down to reload.
What a world.

martin
at December 17, 2007 8:22 AM

I'm guessing these people counted on the reluctance many people feel to honk. Or just didn't care in the slightest about anyone but themselves.

If I could set my horn on anonymous UFIA, I would. But I admit to being far too passive aggressive.

jerry
at December 17, 2007 9:22 AM

We lived off and on in England when my daughter was small and one important difference is that the child care help there is consummately professional. They are highly trained and it is a respected, well-paid profession. The nannies -- even part-time or babysitting help -- mind the most minute details. I remember our nanny telling my daughter not to walk on the back of her shoes because it breaks them down. And they always reminded the children to be mindful of others whether they were in the park or at Harrod's. The attitude there is markedly different in general, as well. Children are loved and respected, but not the center of the universe in families, as they are here. That probably makes the most difference. Here parents are so indulgent that showy public displays by children are considered "charming".

"showy public displays by children are considered "charming" Every time I get to see someone's kid acting out they are usually getting dirty looks from every one including me. Some kid going squirrel shit in public is never seen as charming, by those around. However if you are at a Chucky Cheeses don't expect the little monsters to behave.

In the case of asking about the table. If I didn't have a laptop or other plug in device I would have just moved right there. Amy was curtious enough not to run her cord across the floor. After having to play freaking hop-scotch once at a college coffee place in Boston I'm quite understanding. I would have automatically assumed she was looking for the plug, which if I don't need I see no reason to sit by it.

vlad
at December 17, 2007 10:27 AM

Incidentally, I was just thinking about Mr. Musselmann and wondering how he is faring.

Mary
at December 17, 2007 11:57 AM

"And they always reminded the children to be mindful of others whether they were in the park or at Harrod's."

I've wondered why we don't cater to minimalists, now that manufacturing automation is allowing a huge variety of off-road vehicles and motorcycles to be built. You could choose from the Mazda Microbe, Suzuki Speck, the Ford Flea (4wd, obstruction-hopping version of the Nit™), the Mercury Mote, Nissan Nano, and the Isuzu iCar (rechargeable, plays visualizer in the paint job when tunes are playing). Daihatsu actually made a single-person vehicle with all-terrain capability years ago.

And Martin, we don't have to look down to reload! (J/K!)

Radwaste
at December 17, 2007 2:56 PM

...and the car scooted through the intersection just as the light turned red, leaving the rest of us to wait for the next light...

Grrr! That always happens!

...Hysteria is very unbecoming to anyone in possession of a penis, I might add...

Ya hear that, O'Reilly?

Doobie
at December 17, 2007 4:37 PM

It wouldn't bother me if someone asked to let them know when I was leaving, usually I would offer them an open seat if there was one. But I wouldn't be rushed.

I saw a little girl in the grocery store the other day sitting in that baby seat in the cart just screeching her ass off, big tears running down her cheeks, she must have been two or three years old. And then she screams, "I've never had fruit loops in my life! WHAAAAAH" And that's why the world was ending. I laughed and she screamed even louder. The mother, just totally ignored her and acted like she did this all the time. I have become a lot thicker skinned to this behaviour because I see so much of it all the time.

I never wanted to choke a child so much as when I was in the gym bathroom at Pearl Harbor one time. We had a softball game and I had the worst hangover of my life. I was throwing some cold water on my face and three little boys came in and started talking real loud. Once they noticed that the place made a great echo chamber, (tile on all floors and walls), they started having a screeching competition to see who could scream the loudest and longest. I wanted to kill them. That's why I aways say, I love children, tastes like chicken.

Bikerken
at December 17, 2007 6:28 PM

It wouldn't bother me if someone asked to let them know when I was leaving

It's common practice here, because there are a lot of people who go to cafes to write. This Starbucks installed extra outlets to accomodate people on laptops, but they're only along the walls, not along the bench seats like they are in newer Starbucks in the area.

I have (cute) girls, so they sometimes get away with murder, because they'll smile and flirt with just about anyone. For the most part, they'll stay at the table. If I could afford to go out more, they'd probably have better manners in public.

I have gotten up and left with them, mid meal, and mid-movie.

I think some of it is that parents try to bargain/ negotiate with their children in public. Nowadays, spanking your child will bring the screaching wrath of the nanny-state, not so aptly named in this case. I can remember that both of my parents had a decidedly lower tolerance for misbehavior in public, and absolutely no tolerance for it in a restaraunt.

They did, however, make more of an effort to talk to us, color on placemats, or (presuming a REALLY nice restaraunt that might shudder at the thought of providing crayons at the table), bring along a coloring book or puzzle book.

I'm having better success at taking them places that don't have an indoor jungle gym.

I've only sat in a Starbucks on one occaision, and that was briefly when they were really crowded, and I asked for a poufy drink. (Don't really recall - something cold, frothy, coffee, chocolate, whipped cream and drizzled with caramel. It's their fault, they put up a picture)

Wayne
at December 17, 2007 9:36 PM

"I never wanted to choke a child so much as when I was in the gym bathroom at Pearl Harbor one time."

I was subjected to the same performance in a public locker room not long ago. There were three grown men and three tween boys and I just assumed they were all together. The boys were hollering to raise the dead and I just clenched my teeth like a good Minnesotan, until I heard one of the men say something like "Wow, those kids are out of control." Since this implied they were not together, my inner sergeant kicked in and I bellowed, "Hey, SHUT UP!"
The kids silenced immediately and one of the men, who it turns out, actually WERE supposed to be supervising the boys sheepishly directed the lads to be more considerate.
My own kids thought it was hilarious.

martin
at December 18, 2007 6:46 AM

Sigh...my car horn is far too cute.

That's why you need someone to install horns from a couple other cars too. It's not so much that they get a whole lot louder, they just get very discordant. My old work van came to me that way, it had a horn that would make grown men wet themselves. I should note that I was always careful to use ti very sparingly and only if it was unlikely to cause an accident.

As far as kids in public, it is all about how they are raised, not where.

My son very rarely forgets his manners. Excuse me when he passes gas, thank you when people are kind. He is still working on interupting conversations, but he does say excuse me when he does. When we are out to eat, he is extremely well behaved, I have no problems taking him to a decent restaurant. To be sure, he has his problems, ADHD has left him with the impulse control of a shark in bloody water. But he is ll about being very well mannered.

He is also very good about cleaning up after himself in coffee shops. To the point that we have to remind him that sit-down restaurants are not clean up after yourself sorts of places. He is pretty good about not making a huge mess when he eats and when he does, he will ask the server for a towel to wipe it up.

One of the most important ways that we have instilled this behavior, is by example. Momma and I are very polite to each other and (gasp) to the boy. When he does something nice, we thank him. When we are gassy, excuse me isn't far behind. When we need to interrupt (at an appropriate lul) we say excuse me. We treat him the way we expect him to treat others.

The other aspect of his generally commendable behavior in public, is our tendency to discipline bad decision making on his part. And not late in the game. I have absolutely no quams about walking out of the establishment we are in and sitting him down on the curb for time-out. I also have no problems with stripping him of any or all privileges and sticking to it (he has hated losing privileges since before he really grasped what the word meant).

Martin -

I don't care if the parents are right there. Granted, we mostly deal with obnoxious kids at the park, but I have no quams with calling ill mannered children on it, even if they are rigth next to mom and dad. Especially if they are interfering with my child's enjoyment of our time at the park. I have the good sense to remove my child if he starts misbehaving. I have absolutely no tolerance for asshole parents or caregivers who do not.

I love your comment about throwing yourself at their feet because it shows how much you value goodness. I'm sometimes told, and often feel, that I'm intolerant or wrapped a little too tight b/c I'm intolerant of substandard [insert noun or verb here] - but like you I would walk up to a perfect stranger to thank them for something praiseworthy.

I think people today, particularly here in the U, S and A, suffer from what I call the shitpile effect: we want to improve the world by shoveling the shit away, but if we think about how big the pile is we just want to drop the shovel. And the government doesn't have any backhoes.

Amy, are you a backho[e]? :-)

DaveG
at December 18, 2007 12:40 PM

I love your comment about throwing yourself at their feet because it shows how much you value goodness

Thanks for noticing. I never thought about that, but I actually do tell people positive stuff all the time. (When you're chatty, you're chatty, and if you're going to bitch about the bad stuff, you can't just ignore the good.) I also write letters when people or companies do nice things.

Am I backhoe? Well kind of. But I like to think of myself as the ho next door.

Clearly, I just finished my deadline for this week and I should be kept away at all cost from this comments section.

At a time when I needed a good laugh, I don't think I could have laughed any harder than I did after reading your piece;

"If there was a "Sigh..." button on my steering wheel I'd use it. Even here in the milquetoast midwest giving a full blast on your horn is an invitation to appear on the evening news (covered by a bloodstained sheet.)

By using a quick knuckle-jab, I can get a not too belligerent chirp out of my horn for those times when the driver ahead of me has failed to notice the light has changed. I always make sure to catch their eye with a wave in case they were just looking down to reload.
What a world."

The saliva I cleaned from my screen is a testament to how hard I was laughing. In attempting to read it to my wife, I was repeatedly gasping for the air stolen by laughter.

On the 4th attempt, I successfully read it to her in its entirety.

"It's not that funny," she said matter of factly.
"Yes it is, when you consider he's serious." I retorted.

Tony

Tony
at December 18, 2007 7:21 PM

Hoo, Thanks Tony. Sounds like your wife and my wife would get along fine.