Current Announcements

On Saturday, December 17, from 12:00 to 2:00, Woody and I will be appearing at our favorite cookware/bakeware store, FANTE'S IN PHILADELPHIA. Do come by to say hello, and/or get your books signed. There also will be books available for sale as well as my complete pie making line of equipment.

Making Larger Cakes

Mar 1, 2006 | From the kitchen of Rose

KIM QUESTION

I have a question about augmenting your White Chocolate Whisper Cake for use in my friend's wedding cake. Is there a rule of thumb I can go by when converting any of your cakes to larger or smaller sizes?
I hope to achieve the larger volume of the recipes you've designed in your wedding cake section of the Cake Bible. The tiers are slightly higher and more dramatic than the recipes from the butter cake chapter.

Thanks so much,
As always, your devoted fan,
Kim

ROSE REPLY

In my new book I plan to work on creating recipes for larger cakes based on favorite smaller ones. It can sometimes taken many tests to get it right. One of the cakes I've planned on is the white chocolate whisper cake! I think that's one that won't require much adjustment. You simply need to decrease the baking powder in proportion to the amount of flour as indicated in the charts in the wedding cake section.

Do let me know how it works for you so it will give me a leg up on my recipe testing!

Hi Angela,
If you are making a sponge cake using egg white meringue, cream of tartar should only be used to the specified amount per the recipe as adding more cream of tartar can destabilize the meringue.
Some questions we need to ask.
1. are you trying to make taller butter/oil cakes which most of our recipes are baked in 2 inch high pans to increase with more batter for higher pans?
2. are you trying to use the same batter amount but somehow make the cake taller and more airy?
Rose & Woody

Hi
Thank you for your response. Yes, vanilla extract with alcohol is something I cannot use. I am able,to get alcohol free vanilla extract here in Australia, and a few other extracts too. Other than vanilla extract, most recipes in "The Cake Bible" don't use alcohol? That's good news. Now I will consider buying this book too. Is it much different from "Rose's heavenly cakes"?

Hi Meena,
Do you consider vanilla extract an alcoholic ingredient, because it has an alcohol base?
You can simply not use the vanilla extract; or substitute an equal amount of water if more than a tablespoon. During baking the alcohol dissipates to leave only the flavor of the vanilla or liquor. For frosting and syrup recipes with alcohol, you can use a non-alcoholic substitute, such as raspberry juice for chambord. In many times, we will give an alternative.
Most of the baked recipes in "The Cake Bible" do not have an alcoholic component, unless you consider vanilla extract to be one.
Rose & Woody

Hi Rose, I have bought your book Heavenly Cakes recently and haven't received it yet. I originally wanted to get the cake bible but read somewhere that most recipes used alcoholic ingredients which I can't use because of religious reasons. I don't know what I can substitute them with. Please let me know which of your books have more recipes without such ingredients. Any help will be appreciated.

Hi Rosa,
Yes, you can increase the batter to make 12 inch cakes. A 9 x 2 pan inch. has a volume of 8.66 cups. A 12 x 2 inch pan has a volume of 15.50 cups, 79% more in volume. Although you could increase the recipe for the 9 inch layers by the above percentage, we suggest to simply double the batter for everything but the leavenings, which will yield slightly taller layers. As noted in "The Cake Bible" and in "RHC", larger pans of the same height require the leavenings to be slightly lower than the increased % for the other ingredients.
The baking time will also increase as noted in the books. We highly recommend using cake strips.
Rose & Woody

Hi, My cakes, so far, have all been baked in 9" pans which serve 12, but I want to make butter cakes to serve 30 people. What round cake pan would you recommend? I tried to use the master chart for butter cakes but it's confusing. It shows a 9" cake would serve 45? Please help me to understand how to calculate larger cakes.
Thanks,
RaeAnn

on page 384 of Heavenly Cakes are all the directions for making this cake as a sheet cake. It is extrapolated from page 399 where I've given the recipe amounts, pan sizes, and baking time for a three tier wedding cake.

I love the new LEMON ALMOND CAKE in Heavenly CAKES. I heard Rose on the SPLENDED TABLE. I want to make the cake in an 11 by 16 sheet pan. LEAVENING ADJUSTMENTS? My approach to baking cakes in larger pans has been to double or triple the ingredients. HELP

Olawale, I will start by reading the ingredients section of Cake Bible (page 426) and of Rose's Heavenly Cakes (page 443). The fat content (amount of butter solids) is the primary factor on cake texture. Too much or too little butter fat makes a cake collapse, be dry, or turn into a cake not intended as designed.

Buttermilk contains less fat than sour cream. Roughly speaking, buttermilk is whole or partly skim milk with a sour culture added. Buttermilk has the consistency of cream but it has less fat than cream or than whole milk!

Sour cream is partly whole milk and partly cream (or partly skim cream) with a sour culture added. Sourcream is similar to whole milk yogurt, in amount of fat and consistency. Indeed, sourcream is interchangeable with yogurt on most cake batters.

Chocolate syrup lacks cocoa butter! It is not interchangeable with baking chocolate. Chocolate syrup also contains liquids (oils or water), baking chocolate does not. The lack of cocoa butter and the extra liquid will throw off your cake batter. U will need to rework the recipe to use cocoa syrup.

I don't use any artificial preservatives to keep cakes. I believe the taste is off. Several if not most cakes can be refrigerated for up to a week or frozen for months or up to a year. They must be airtight. Better yet, they must be airfree if possible with such devices as a vacuum packer. Freezing your cake prior vacuuming prevents the vacuum to collapse the cake; similarly, be sure to open the vacuum bag prior defrosting. Cake Bible has shelf life specs for each cake and cake component. Note that a cake itself contains natural preservatives such as sugar and chocolate! The alcohol in fruit cakes works also as a preservative (which by the way u just reminded me to visit my Xmas fruitcake and apply more rum to it). The alcohol on most other cakes is primarily for flavor, since no that much is used compared to a fruit cake. One last hint, I use a chest freezer to freeze my cakes, its temperature is constant -20oF. It isn't a self defrosting freezer, so it doesn't fluctuate between +20oF and -20oF, typical on most self defrosting freezers. By been temperature constant, you could extend your freezing life for up to 2 or 3 times!

Emulsifiers work! But i don't use them because of off taste. If u use good recipes and measure ingredients carefully, there is no need for emulsifiers. Fat (butter, oils, yolks) are emulsifiers, so if you use the 'exacting' amount, there isn't a need to add additional emulsifiers. Emulsifiers are often present on boxed cake mixes and also at large commercial bakeries, so the results are more forgiving.

I am a bit confused, because some cakes calls for sourcream, or buttercream. At what stage will I know that this is buttermilk/sourcream.

Chocolate syrup vs baking chocolate

can one substitute chocolate syrup for baking chocolates. will it give thesame effect - flavor, taste, richness as the baking chocolate.

To preserve a cake for months/yrs if possible, you didnt incorporate any preservative in your recipe or use of alcohol like brandy or rum, what do you think about this additional items in a cake and how can one safeguard the overal outcome of the cake.

Emulsifiers - Excel sponge
This product is common in Nigeria. I want to try it but am afraid, I tried looking it up on the internet. Its a general emulsifier, to make cakes lighter,and it will be combined with the eggs. Whats your take on this and can I apply it to your recipes.

I am not a rose factor expert, but I am assuming that the same batter for the 6-9 layers should work for 7 and 8 layers too (in between). You will only need to do the math to know how much more or less batter you need to make to fill these pans.

I have your new book which has so many great recipes, i literally don't know which to make first, and am tyring to find new people to bake for (we can only eat so many desserts!)
i plan on making the golden wedding cake for a wedding in october, and would like to try a sample cake first.(i would like to make a one layer 8".) i am trying to convert the cake to a base recipe by dividing the 12" recipe by 7 (Rose factor for 12" cake), figuring that should give me a base formula. However, when i used the calculated base formula and multiplied it by the rose factors for the 6" and 9", the numbers i calculated didn't add up to the numbers given in the recipe in the new book- they were significantly more. (any suggestions why?)
so i will re-do the math calculating the amounts using percentages (like carolita suggested), but i am curious as to why my method didn't work. Any idea why?

I am sorry to say that my cake bible fell apart and I am waiting for the new one to make it to Hawaii to replace. I am trying to convert a chocolate layer cake recipe to bake on a full sheet pan - do I simply multiply all the ingredients (to make a larger batch) including the baking soda, or do I need to adjust this? Thank you.

lori i can't answer this with absolutely certainty as i'd have to have tried it at all those different sizes as i did all the others. if you use the chart designed for the other cakes where i tested every one in every size consider it a starting point or guide.

Rose,
I am in the process of making a spreadsheet for all pan sizes of the White Chocolate Whisper Cake. Just a quick question. Due to the recipe having white chocolate as an ingredient I wasnt sure if I should use the baking powder base calculations using the Yellow chart P492 or the Chocolate chart P493?
Thank you,
Lori V.

sponge cakes (ie Biscuit de Savoie) rely on the amount of air beaten in the eggs and the support from the cake sides. A wider pan means less support.

what I do for my larger pans (ie Hawaii Way Cake), is to beat the eggs much longer than double in volume, fill the pan higher than half (often almost to the rim), and expect just a 1/2 inch rise to 1-inch maximum.

i say, sponge cakes don't rise well on too wide pans.

increasing the heat of your oven, and lining the oven with preheated tiles helps inmenselly for the quickest rise. It is strong heat that helps your sponge rise. the heated tiles help the oven stay quickly after you open and close the oven door to put the cake in.

a half sheet pan has low sides--the sheet pans in the cake bible wedding cake section are for rectangular 2 inch high sides. they bake differently from round cakes so the leavening is not correspondingly lower. that's why i gave a specific guide for them. hope this helps.

I work in a restaurant and prefer to use half-sheet pans to bake all of my cakes since I often need custom shapes and sizes. This way I get a fairly uniform inch-thick layer and can just stack them and carve away what I don't need, or use metal rings to cut out rounds and then don't have to split cakes or deal with side crusts. My question is, should I be reducing my baking powder amounts to compensate for the wide surface area? I know in TCB it says to lower the BP for the larger pan sizes, but then it gives BP amts for sheet cakes that are not necessarily lower. Does a half sheet pan count as a sheet cake, or it that referring to a much deeper pan only?

I am wondering, is there a recipe out there for a cake such as a sponge cake covered in marzipan and then baked? I saw a cake at a bakery in New York that was prepared like this, and wanted to try making one. Thank You!

I'm trying to remember now, but I think it has a doubly negative effect: first, what hector said, the sides of the pan get over heated and cause the edges to overcook, but conversely the extra height also shields the middle of the cake, causing it to take longer to cook, which in turn make the edges even worse! You end up with a weird cake with a darker overdone edge and a lighter underdone middle--at least that is what I remember.

Just out of curiosity, Matthew -- what happened when you tried to bake a 1 inch cake in a 3 inch tall pan? I keep hearing that "it doesn't work" but being the inquiring type, I always wonder just exactly HOW it doesn't work. Thanks!

You would need to increase the recipe by about 25% to keep the height the same. I can tell you though that your cake will not bake well if you try to bake a 1 inch tall cake in a 3 inch tall pan--unfortunately, I know from experience.

i have a recipe for two 9" round cake pans but would like to increase and make it in two 10" pans. By how much do I increase the recipe? I know the formula to get the volume but it says to fill the pans totally with water and see the difference. I have the 9"ones that are only 1" deep and the 10" which is 3" deep. It doesn't make sense to get the volume by filling with water when I would never fill them with batter.

The standard half sheet pan is 17 1/4 by 12 1/4 by 1 inch high/12 cups (measured from the inside top). if using a slightly larger pan the biscuit will be slightly thinner. and yes i would lower the temp 25 degreesF but no more.

I'm hoping to try out your biscuit roulade recipe. But being in Australia, I have difficulty finding a jelly-roll pan which is 17 x 12 inches.

Finally, I managed to find a pan that's 18 x 13 inches by chicago metallic - the professional range. Can i still bake the exact recipe of your biscuit roulade in that pan since it's just slightly larger? And being a dark pan, will it affect the end-result of the cake much, bearing in mind that i have to lower the tmperature by about 25F when baking? Am making this for the first time so just wanna make sure i get all my stuff right!

I did a 12" round cake for 28 - using the large tier cutting style shown in the cake bible. You could easily adjust the cake slices to accomodate 30 servings.

The cake mentioned above was a double layer - you said you wanted to make this a triple layer cake - how tall do you expect the overall cake to be when finished? My double layer was about 4 1/2 inches tall. If your cake is going to be another inch or two taller, I would make a smaller cake. (hint: tall slices don't fit on dessert plates very well)

You might also want to consider 2 smaller round cakes stacked together (say a 6" or 8" ontop of a 10")

Hector- the higher the batter (in the pan) the more structure (given by flour+strach) sponge cake needs to climb along the pan-sides. so the texture, fluff, rise etc also going to be affected if not using the prescribed type of pan. am i right?

Natalie, I've had the same concern a while ago. Cake recipes are usually formulated for an exact pan size and shape. As a general rule, it is undersirable to have extra cake pan that is not touching cake. For example, a tube pan is tall, so you will have a few inches of pan not in contact with the batter, this 'naked' metal will generate excessive heat, setting the crust too fast, preventing proper rising, and also making it prone to burning. If your pan is made of darker metal, I can almost guarantee you that it will burn. Most tube pans now come with non-stick coating which is dark, too.

Sponge cakes are the most affected. Butter cakes that don't rise much are the least affected.

I would just try, and you will find a type of cake that will indeed love the tube pan. I bake Rose's carrot ring on a plain aluminum tube pan! But I would never ever bake a genoise or biscuit de savoie in any pan higher than needed!

Sue, i have got access to limited number of ingredients(not to mention, the quality also not up to the mark) and cant bake many of the recipes from The Cake Bible by Rose. Even then, just reading the book is a great experience too! If you are really into baking, you are worth it. until you get yr copy, keep seeing february2007 from this sites' archives. happy baking.

Hi Susan - I'm certainly not an expert, but your recipe looks like a pound cake to me. Pound cakes are by nature very dense and heavy - no matter how you mix them, you won't achieve a light or spongy cake.

Cookie, may I suggest you bake at the regular temperature for the first half of the time, or until you see the cake rising, and then lower to 325 degrees. This has worked very well when I make larger than life cakes!

You need a minimum temperature for your cake to rise, and rising usually happens at the beginning of the baking time. Once your cake has risen, and the texture has set initially, then it is a matter of cooking it all the way thru using the additional baking time. If you start baking "too cold" your cake will not rise; and correspondingly, if you keep baking at high heat, the center can burst.

I've noticed you are using yellow cake mix, and 'spice it up' with butter, fresh eggs, and vanilla pudding. Wait until you bake everything from scratch, you will be blown away by the texture and flavor; needless to say that you will be able to spell and pronounce the ingredients when baking from scratch as opposed to try reading the ingredients printed on the box of cake mix! Let me tell you, that even the simplest cake recipe from scratch is way better than cake box!

thank you
i used my judgement
i had 22 cups of batter in a SLOW OVEN 325DEGREES AND I WILL TEST IT AT 85
MINUTES.
THIS IS A WONDERFUL POUND CAKE WHEN ITS DONE. ITS BEEN IN THE FAMILY FOR2 GENERATIONS. ITS A NO FAIL CAKE.
1 BOX YELLOW CAKE MIX
1 STICK ROOM TEMP BUTTER
1 CUP WATER
1 SMALL BOX INSTAND VANILLA PUDDING
4 RGGS
WE ALSO USED THIS RECIPE FOR ONE OF MY DAUGHTERS BRIDAL CAKES. WE HAD SEVERAL KINDS OF CAKE FOR HER WEDDING. ALL THE CAKES WERE A REAL NICE CHANGE FROM THE TYPICAL WEDDING CAKE THAT JUST SITS THERE.
THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR INPUT

i'm so sorry i can't help--first of all i don't use mixes. and the only guidance i could give you is to measure the volume of the pan and compare it to the volume of the pan and size of the mix you've used before. in any case, don't fill more than 2/3 full and bake until it tests done and you should be fine.

hi rose, thanks for responding so quickly. i have to bake this evening
its a yellow cake mix with butter and instant pudding added to the cake to make a pound cake.my pan is foil and its 19x11x3.
i have made this several times before but never this size. its a wonderful recipe from my mom for all occassions

i have 4 boxes of cake mix and 4 boxes of instant pudding, with 4 eggs for each box and 1 cup of liquid for each box.
thanks in advance
i love this site.

the only pistachio cake i have is in the cake bible and it's a white butter cake with pistachio marzipan. i don't know if this is the one you had in mind but i do have a wonderful pistachio cake in my upcoming book due out fall of 2008.

I need help!!! I had a book years ago and the recipes were great. I loved one in particular and cannot find it . All the moving through the years, the book was left behind . It was a Pistachio Cake with Butter Cream Frosting. The only thing I remember is that one of the ingredients was cream of tartar . It was the most incredible cakes I have ever tasted. Any chance that you would know of it or that you could help me find it? Any help is greatly appreciated.

I'm going to use your cheesecake recipe for a wedding cake. I've never made a cheesecake wedding cake before & my concern is when to set it up. I'm afraid of it going bad if I set it up to early & you recommend not to freeze it. Any suggestions?

Thank you so much for the fast response! I did consider the fact that the square pan is 1/3 larger than the round one... maybe I'll try the baking core. Because the pan is a different shape and does have 1/3 more volume, should I adjust the baking powder levels? (My practice cake came out so dense... also the top of it had a larger dome than my circle cakes usually do.)

as long as you determine the volume, keeping in mind that a square cake pan is 1 1/3 times the size of a round pan of the same diameter it should work. if not, then try using a baking core in the center but i shouldn't think it would be necessary.

Hi Rose,
I am a "passionate amateur" as you describe in the Cake Bible. I have made about 12-13 wedding cakes in the past several years for friends and family. My best friend is getting married on March 31st (in 29 days!), and I am making her cake (in addition to being the maid of honor!) I have always had great success using your "Rose factor" charts for round cakes in the past. My friend wants a three-tiered SQUARE cake. I have found pans in sizes 8", 12", and 16". Is there a formula I can use to convert the "Rose factor" for square cakes? I am unsure what to do, I have experimented a few times but my 12" and 16" layers are coming out really dense and kind of dry.

please, as a matter of general policy, do a search on the blog before you leap to conclusions or ask a question that may already have been answered (this goes for everyone who's reading this)
beth had downloaded all the recipe so my blog master was able to input them and they're all on this blog!

that makes a lot of sense... so it has to do with the sugar and not the whites. i am going to make the swiss meringue this time (i really like the mousseline better) but i have all these egg whites (40 actually) and don't want to waste them, but need to have a cooked meringue for a baby shower cake. i am paranoid about salmonella...
thanks again for all of your help! I feel like you are here with me while i am baking!

thanks so much for your quick advice regarding the syrup! i brushed both sides and then wrapped them tightly with plastic wrap!

i have another question regarding chocolate buttercream. i noticed that your recipe for choc mousseline bc calls for 5 oz of bittersweet choc for 5 egg whites. i have a recipe for swiss meringue bc that uses 8 oz of bittersweet for 4 egg whites. i was just wondering out of curiosity if the difference in amounts of chocolate is just due to preference of how chocolately the icing should be or is due to the differences in the way the two butterceams are made.

so i just made 5 13x18x1 sheet cakes using your yellow base cake recipe. (by the way, thanks so much for the base recipe and the rose factors for each pan- couldn't have made the cakes without that!!)
i am now sprinkling with syrup- should i brush both sides of the cake with the syrup or just one? i don't want the cake to be mushy, but don't want it dry either... i am icing it tomorrow and then eating it on sunday!
thanks so much!

Hi Rose,
I'm making a co-workers wedding cake which will be all cheesecake. My question is how do I make the layers 4-5 inches tall like a traditional wedding cake? She wants cheesecake but wants it decorated like a traditional wedding cake. I've made your cheesecake several times, but it's not "wedding cake height". Can I use your cheesecake recipe and double it for taller layers? Help!!

the lower the cake pan the more leavening proportionately (reread that section for better understanding of the principles of structure)
you will probably need a little more than level 6 but it's trial and error as i haven't done it. if it domes too much, next time use more. it will still be good.

I have a favorite baked cheesecake recipe, but it calls for an 8-inch springform pan, which I haven't been able to find at any store. I have a 9-inch springform pan however, and I was wondering if there is any way to increase the recipe so that the cake will turn out with the same height. This is the recipe:

I love your White Spice Pound Cake and would like to make it in a larger size. Is that possible? How might I adjust the recipe for, say, a 9 cup tube pan? Does the proportion of leavening stay the same for a tube pan? I can hardly wait for your next book, by the way! Thanks

1. tall tiers should be composed either on site or you need to drive a stake through all of them to transport them without their slipping.

2. people have reported to me that they have make the white chocolate whisper cake as a wedding cake without modification to the baking powder.

3. this is a matter of personal preference.

4. sadly pistacho liquer is no longer availble. flavorings vary in intensity so you will need to experiment.

generally speaking, it is a good idea to do a practice cake or at least a layer when one experiments. all of the cakes in the cake bible were tested many times. i never made something as an experiment for an important occasion--i always made a test cake bc no matter how much one knows, there are always surprises when ingredients change. i can only speculate but it is always best to try ones ideas before the final event.

I’m planning a friend’s wedding cake and am planning to use your White Chocolate Whisper Cake, with three triple-layer tiers of 6, 8, and 10 inches. I have a few questions and would really appreciate your input.

1. First of all, am I crazy to be building such tall tiers? This is the bride’s request and looking around on the Internet I saw quite a few examples of tall tiers. Do you know of any extra precautions I need to take?

2. I’ve figured out a base recipe for the White Chocolate Whisper Cake by dividing the Cake Bible recipe by three. I was planning to use the chart in the wedding cake section of the book to calculate the baking powder, but then I noticed that the original recipe uses more B.P. than other butter cakes in the book. Is there a magic formula I should use for this particular cake, or should I default to the chart?

3. Is there a formula for determining how much syrup to use for soaking different-sized layers of butter cakes?

4. I’d like to add pistachio flavor to the soaking syrup, but can’t find a pistachio liqueur and am considering using LorAnn’s pistachio flavoring instead. Is there a rule of thumb for calculating quantities when substituting extracts/flavorings for liqueurs in syrups (and buttercreams for that matter)?

Thanks in advance for any help you can give me (any MORE help I should say, as your Cake Bible is a never-ending source of help to me!).