I don't think I need to touch on every point, since you made a good end to the conversation with the following paragraphs...

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Originally Posted by happily_married

I will say this: ultimately I do understand that you need someone with whom to express these feelings and in the event you do end up in a relationship, her respecting your needs is just as important as your respecting hers. This includes being an outlet for your expression.

Yes. That is the central point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by happily_married

So we've reached a healthy balance where my need to express my appreciation for the one woman I'll ever be with again is respected and her desire for as little undue attention to certain parts of her body is respected. Balance.

If that's sufficient to make the relationship bearable, I couldn't be happier for you.

I also think you hit very close to the mark, when you said...

Quote:

Originally Posted by happily_married

Is expressing your appreciation for something that may be an extremely sensitive issue to her so important that you risk shutting her down over it?

I don't want to take any risks that I don't need to, which is why I went looking for tips, but yes. Yes, it is really that important.

Thank you for the insurance analogy. That helps me to understand the situation a little better. Though it doesn't really change my situation any, any tidbit of information is helpful.

However, I am still really confused by a ton of what you said, and I know, you're not obligated to go into analysis or clarify anything, but just for the record, I want to point out what, precisely, I still don't get.

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Originally Posted by happily_married

...and "too early" is defined by the person you're getting to know, so you never really know when it's not "too early"...

This is one of the most relevant portions with regard to what I was asking for, though it would be nice to have some descriptions of warning signs, which I could use to determine when it's "too early." What? Do you just ask the person if you can start expressing how you really feel?

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Originally Posted by happily_married

Like my friend whose example I shared with you. Did you even read it?

Of course, but in your friend's case, being defensive was a costly mistake, so it seemed to more or less validate what I'd been saying all along.

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Originally Posted by happily_married

You've either not read and considered them or you've dismissed it them without so much as a rebuttal.

There's no need to rebut it. I asked for clarification. I still don't understand this, and I think it's strange and likely to lead to wasted time on both sides. So far, I don't have a reason to think otherwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by happily_married

Secondly, you applied your baseline to me on a general behavioral trait. In the hypothetical we're discussing she'd be applying her baseline experiences toward you based on an intimately personal physical trait that may well have resulted in her being hurt in the past.

That's what inductive reasoning is. From specific examples to general conclusions. As for the rest... You're suggesting that I try to get information on whether she's previously been hurt? I guess? I'm not sure what you're recommending here.

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Originally Posted by happily_married

Suppose she gets news about a health concern that can grow more serious with time? Or maybe she sees something that inspires her to pursue weightless and athletic activities and these pursuits genuinely make her happy?

Is your basis for your attraction to her so tied to the physical that you believe these changes would disrupt the relationship?

The first one, no. I would mourn with her over her illness, and share, to the best of my ability, in her suffering, because that's something I can completely understand and sympathize with. She would never want for a shoulder to cry on.

However, if she ever found that being thin could make her happy, I would mourn alone, because I could never draw any kind of happiness from being thin, and I can't understand people who can. It would make us so different from one another, that I honestly don't know what would happen.

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Originally Posted by happily_married

...that's not even close to what I'm saying.

Well, that's what you actually said, overtly. I'm looking for what "who she is" means, as in, a working definition or list of all the things it encompasses, and I still haven't found one.

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Originally Posted by happily_married

My point is the difference between "who" and "what." Most women want to be appreciated for "who" they are, not "what" they are.

Right, and my point is what does that mean?!!??! You're using words, and I have no idea what you mean by them! My gosh!

I don't mean to be combative (in this topic,) and I don't mean to be a pain, but I just don't understand half of this stuff, or how anybody else can deal with it. I still get a "thou shalt not openly appreciate good things of a not-approved type" vibe from the whole thing, and I've never heard any good reason why this is the case.

In closing, do you know what I think all of this is really about? I think, as with all relationship issues, the only reason why any of us even try is that we're tired of being lonely. The only question is; what does it take before we stop feeling lonely? I've felt lonely all my life. I've been surrounded by people, been to many different schools, jobs, recreational activities, but my thoughts and positions were always just kind of discarded without a second thought. It was like being invited to party after party, only to be told, once you get there, that you have to spend the whole party standing in the corner and not participating, or else someone might get hurt. To me, that's what loneliness is. It's never having a group to belong to. It's always being on the outskirts of human relationships, observing and studying, and never quite meeting anyone you can truly sympathize with.

You know, I honestly think it would be easier for me to strike up a relationship with a thin woman, as long as she was an FA like me, because at least then, I wouldn't have to feel like I was alone in the room.