Clint Pettway interview

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Interview with Clint Pettway
Date of Interview: September 25, 1980; Gee's Bend, Alabama
Interviewer: Kathryn Tucker Windham
Transcriber : Edna O. Meek
Begin Side 1 , Tape 1
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This is Clint Pettway, on the river bank , down
here working on a fish net. He ' s going to tell
us some tales. Clint, where do you live?
Not far up there, not far up there.
Close to Lucy?
Who?
Lucy _
Which one?
Pettway.
Yeah , that ' s a first cousin of mine, talking
about Lucy Pettway there. Tha t big , dark lady,
that's Lucy Pettway there. Me and her first
cousins . Sister and brother's chillun . We off
the same •••• sister of that woman I telling you
from that same South Carolina man's son.
Now, tell me again what you said about a bed
ticking .
Well, you see, at that time old man Pettway bought
Saul from South Carol i na. That's where he come
from as a little boy . He didn ' t buy him, he bought
his Mama. And you know how a lady is about her
chillun. And the man was selling her an d got to
leave the chile. He was just throwed away. And
she stole him and put him in a bed ticking. Sewed
him up in a bed ticking. That's how she slipped
him on the train and got him here .
And that was your great grandfather?
My father's father, that's right.
Your grandfather.
Right, he's a grandfather, that's right. Now, he
wasn't no Pettway now . And his mama wasn ' t no
Pettway. Them was Johnsons. Them wasn't no Pett­ways.
But when old man Pettway bought 'em, he
was a Pettway then. That's right. He come to
be a Pettway. He wasn't one first. See, peoples
be hollering all us is kin in here, they's kin.
Them peoples ain't near as kin as you ,think they
is. But they short of learning down in here, you
know, they didn't know no better. Everything went
to born later on, they 'just named 'em Pettway.
Didn't care where it come from, he just had a
Pettway. If he went somewhere and got a man outta
anywhere, he changed his name to a Pettway. Just
loved the Pettway family, I reckon .
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Wasn't he a Pettway himself?
Who?
Uniden. Person: This man who bought?
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Oh, yeah, he was a white man, just like those men
there, but he was a Pettway, and everybody he'd
buy and bring in here, they had to be a Pettway,
too. Old man Pettway, one who owned the place,
some of them peoples done live up there yet,
some of them is. He owned the place in here.
And he sold it to the VandeGraaffs, didn't he?
That's right . Them VandeGraaffs got it after
them.
And they sold it to the government .
Sold it to the government , and that's why we
get it then, that's how we get it. That 's right.
That 's the way it come out, now.
Do you remember the VandeGraaffs?
I remember lem good . Old man Hargrove. He was
a good old man. You want to get by, get with him.
You had it made if you ever got to Old Man Hargrove.
I was one of the ones was on his place. He stayed
right up there on that hill, from them Day Care
Centers up there. That's where he stayed, right
up there. Old Man Hargrove did.
Now, w'as ,it close to the cemetery, that little
cemetery up on the hill?
That 's right, right from that little cemetery.
That 's where he stayed, in the house right there.
What did that house look like?
Well, it was a, you know, a great big house, kinda
like a, you know how the old make a-house made
back there then? Somethin' like an old two-story
building, but it wasn't no two- story building or
all that. It was just made kinda like that.
That's where he stayed, right up in an old house
like that at that time.
And the government tore that house down, didn 't
they?
That's right, tore it down, that's right. That 's
where we had to always whup him about it, with
our mouths. Old man named John Henry Miller stayed
right there in that house with old man Hargrove.
See, he used to work for the man, and there was
an old chest stayed there in that house all the
time, after them Hargroves was gone, and it had
all types of money in the thing, and he wouldn't
let nobody go in there and bother it. And when
they went to build the place up there, those
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other peoples come in and got it and go t the
money out of it. He was rich and didn ' t know it .
Stayed right in the house with him. He was a rich
man, rich and didn ' t know it . All types of money ,
silver and gold in there, and he just let it all
stay_ The biggest of them were old men that died,
just leave it there. The house waS in his charge,
and he just lived right there with that money and
let somebody come here from I don't know wher e and
got the money right out of the house . Broke the
chest open , took them torches and cut it loose.
I t was 8 kind of safe it was in?
That ' s right . Sorts l ike them money chests, if
you don ' t know the combination , you ain ' t going
to open it . Them made in them days , wasn't 8
young man that knowed the combination on ' em, no~ay .
And they just got the torches and got in there?
That ' s right, t hey got into it. That's right.
We had tried it ther e . When ~e Mere building up
the place, we got lucky when they was up there
one day tearing it down . We took sludge hammers
and done ever y way we could to bust it open, and
we just couldn't get in it. Them other men , they
got in there . They had a little more sense than
~e did . They kno~ed ho~ to get in there , and ~e
didn ' t . They got a torch, and we had sludge
hammers . If ~e ' d a - got in there , I ' d a - got some­thing
then. I couldn ' t get in there . That was
j ust all . I just couldn't get in there .
Now , is that ~hen Mr . Cammack was down here?
That ' s long the same time he is . He took over the
place, the same ·time. That ' s in Cammack ' s time .
That's right .
He didn ' t get any of that money either, did he?
Well, I tell you , he didn ' t much need it , in one
way , ' cause he done just like a man ~ould do.
Everything ~as on the place , he sold it and kept
it hisself , anyway . I didn' t see ~hy he needed
that. He sold everythi ng ~as on the place . He
sol d it. And it ~as it . That ' s r ight . It ain't
a country in the world been no r icher one than
this one , and ~e didn ' t get it . The other man got
it . We j ust didn ' t get it . I know I see them
same barges of gravel comin ' a~ay from up there,
and a man on the other s i de of Mobile somewhere
gettin ' it . That ' s come off some of them fellers'
place stay right up there around that other store
up there . See how we missed all of that? They
been hauling that stuff for five or six years ,
and you see how it go. All the timber and every­thing
come out of here , old man Cammack got i t.
He got it made outta that timber. It ~as cheap,
but there was so much of it in there . It ~as l ogs
i n her e then , l ogs get big as them vans up there .
They had to get a special sa~ to saw the t r ees
down . You ge t on tree sawi ng down here- you know
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they had the old make of saws then, you bad to
use them with your hand . You couldn't hardly
see your buddy. You better go around on the
other side and look. You couldn 't look around
the tree Bnd see him. It was some trees in herel
Mr. Cammack got rich off them kind of it . Along
then he did. It been 8 rich place. It kinds
pore now. But it still all right. And it somethin'
around here right now. That's the reason you
see th at dam right down there right this marnin '.
It's somethln ' in her e, but what it is we don't
know. And never will know . I reckon the chillun
will see it. That ls why you always hear it say
the big fish eat the little ones up . See, the big
man got it and the little one can't get it . Helll
find out . The big man know what down there, but
the little one don 't, and the big man got somethin '
to get it and the little one ain't. That's what
the difference . If they's oil or gas or anything
he wants, and it's out there in that water, all
he got to do is set up a rig and he got somethin '
out there to go down and get it . If I had an oil
well out there, how would I get it? It wouldn't
do me any good, 'cause I couldn't get it 'way
from out there.
Clint, were you down here when Mr . Rentz broke up
the folks?
That's right.
Was your family broke up?
I wasn't around when Mr. Rentz here . I know who
you talking about. That ' s the time he haul all
that cotton, corn, hogs. He took everything . It
wasn't none of him. It was kinda of a, well •••
we had to give it to him , but it just wasn ' t his .
But now, that wasn't none of the man that time,
now. We just had to give to who was dOing it.
That was that Miss done it. The Old Man died,
and the lady couldn't stand the stone. She took
everything, she just took it all. That was the
woman done that, that wasn't the man. The men
was gone. She's the one done that . That ' s right.
I been here a long time. I come through a lot.
I been here a long time . I'm fifty - eight years .
That wasn't yesterday now .
(Note: Here follows a d iscussion of ages
between members of this assorted group of people
sitting on the river bank.)
Clint, do you belong to the Pleasant Grove Baptist
Church?
That's right.
That's where I've seen you then.
That 's right. I be there practically every meetin'
day mostly, and I don't have but a few I missed
these days . See, when a man done got old, there
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ain't but one thing to do : stick close around
the Master 's place. Now, that's all I can tell
a man; that's all that ' s goin ' to help . But you
know, when you young, you don 't figure that. If
they thinks in time when they young, it go all
the way through, but I didn't see it 'til I got
to tha place I thought I' d die.
How long ago was that?
Ainlt been so long ago.
About two or three years ago?
About ' 77, I thought, I figured then I died.
Uniden . Person: You were bit by a snake, weren't you?
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New , I went to the hospital, and couldntt never,
like to never get outta there. Stayed there nine
months. Man , I tellin' the truthl
Where were you , Good Samaritan?
First I was in Thomasville . Stayed there about
two months. Come from there and went to the Medical
Center in Selma. Stayed there three. Went to
Montgomery hospital, and finished out in Mont­gomery
. When I leave there •••• I make it now. Got
to them good doctors up there . Better doctors up
there than it was down in these little towns.
Some good ones up in Selma all right now . The
best ones over at the Medical Center in Selma,
them's the best doctors.
Dr . Moseley?
Moseley , and then there's another one, Cox ••
I helped raise him.
You raised a good doctor, too . Old Dr . Cox .
Moseley and Howell , that ls a medical doctor . He
ain't a surgeon, be a medical doctor, but that ls
a good doctor , now. Them my three men . Me and
Dr . Moseley could make it anyway. All I gotta
do is get with him .
He likes this kind of stuff , too. Have you ever
taken him fishing?
Dr . Mosel ey does? Well , he need to be down here
now .
11m going to tell him to come down here and go
fishing with you .
He know
he know
right .
me, now. You ever bring up a Pettway,
me. He know the one he skin grafted , all
He know me good .
Did you get burned?
Nolm . Just a diabetic , thatls what it was .
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But weren ' t you bit?
No'm, I wasn ' t bit . I was diabetic . Diabetic
troubles . And I ain ' t seed no way out of it.
Gotta give Dr . Moseley credit. I ain ' t s eed no
way in the world for me to keep to have legs
to walk on . It ' s three good doctors in the
Medical Center Hospital , and if you got some­thing
hurt about you, go there . If they can ' t
fix you , they'll send you on to Birmingham or
Montgomery. But they ' re more ' n apt to get you
there . Most l ikel y. Dr . Moseley and them are
just about as good a doctors in the lower part
of the south as you ' re gain ' find. You can ' t
beat him . He ' s a good doctor .
He ' s a good roan , too . They all are .
I know him , now . When he get through killing
you , you get better. If you could just stand
what they do to you.
Well , that ' s when you decided you better get
right up here at this church .
Understand , now , I had been there once . But you
know how it is with a person when they gets slack .
I done kinda like Jonah , you know. He went his
way, and that's what I had done . I went my way .
And Jonah didn ' ~ have no good luck , and me , I
didn ' t either .
He got in the whale and you got in the hospital .
Right . I was just in as worse a shape as Jonah
was . Warn ' t a bit better off . I started down
and then I didn ' t never stop , and that ' s what the
trouble with Jonah : he started down and didn't
never quit going down , down , down , down . And
when he wound up, he was down in Nineveh where
he was sent. That ' s right . I wound up just
like Jonah .
But were you baptized down there in the creek?
In that same creek down there where they go now .
The same creek .
Who baptized you?
Rev .
name
Carey .
William
The one
Carey .
down at our church . His
Will iam, that was his name .
He was here when the government project came along?
That ' s right . He was • • •• he had been here , stayed
her e al l his days , but had moved r ight up there ,
staying r ight up there s i de that Herbert place up
there , all up in Mitchell land , right up there
befor e you get to them hills that go to going up .
And he had him a house built and moved right across
the branch over there . That ' s where he died at,
over there.
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And when they baptized you down there, did they
sing about •••• what is that song they sing at the
baptizings down there at the creek? Sing it
every time. ULet_a Me Ride!!.
Yeah , they sing that one mostly when they got
you back to the church. I tryin' to think of that
song, what it is. I know it and then can't call
it, right at the moment.
I thought maybe you could sing it for me .
Aw, no, I can't sing it. It have to take somebody ••
I'm a follower. I have to follow the others.
See, what made me slack up this church like that,
I told you, I'm like Jonah. God had told Jonah
to go down to Niniveh and preach to them peoples
down there. Jonah didn't want to do that. He
done everythi ng he cou~d do but go to Niniveh
right then. See , he tryin' to get out from serving
the Lord. See , I knowed I bad to preach, too,
and I was doing everything I could to miss it.
And you know, I wound up and got to get right by
and come right up there to God. About the only
thing I could help Dr. Moseley and them out with
was when I decided and made it back there with
another contract with the Lord, if He get me up
and get me better, I goin ' carry His word. And
now I still to let a year go by and I still
hadn't ••••••
You see, that's a Man you can't make contracts
with and break 'em. I can break 'em with you,
but then me and you, you'll kinda feel for me and
lemme get by. But, now, you can't play with that
Man . That's a Man you don't play with. He ain't
goin' take your excuses, either. I gotta do a
l ittle somethin'. I'm doin' all that, tryin' to
get by, and I just couldn't make it. Shot couldn't.
Do you preach any now?
Nolm. I ain't started yet, but it look like I
got to. I haven't started. That's what I tryin'
to do then, tryin' to get out. See, that ain't
nare easy job. Peoples be settin' down lookin'
at the preacher up there, but that's just about
one of the worst things that could be done.
Don't nobody know it but them what have to do
that. Them what ain't got to do it , it look
like he can do anything. I hear people say, "If
the Lord had,da told me to preach, I'd do this. II
Ain't nothin' so like that, 'cause he wouldn't
do it, for if it something He did tell you, God
give everybody a duty to do, and they ain't dOing
that. 'Cause He commanded them to walk in His
steps and keep His commanderments like He
commanded them to, and now you see how they zig­wag
walking, don't you? Well, OK, then. How
you goin ' preach then? If you got to do all that,
you could keep the commanderments. That's right.
But after you didn't keep the commanderments, that's
just the way you wouldn't have preached when He
told you. See, I know 'em. I ain't saw a preacher
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yet that wanted to preach. That's somethin'
he can't get by. It ain't somethin' be want to
do, it's what he got to do. He don't want to
do it .
It's 8 burden placed on him.
Right. And everybody setting there lookin' and
depending on pore you. You got all them folks in
front of you there. That ' s just like a man drivin '
a bus, bus full, and everything in there settin'
up there depending on one driver now; and he got
f em all in his charge right then. If anything
go wrong, it charged to him . Regardless, it charged
to the bus driver. That's the way the preacher is.
The Lord charges it to him. He got 8 load on his
hands, all right. That's the reason they don 't
want to pull it . But God got him out there, and
it was in the beginning that God put the ••• you
know Christ had 'em with Him, when He choose
those tw-"wlve men. And He give 'em their key, and
that's the men today, too. He out there, and you
just as wells agree with Him when He come up there,
'cause He asked you a good question: IIHow can you
hear without the preacher?1I And how come the
preacher preach if he wasn't sent? God had to
send him. Now , you just might as well hear him.
Heap of people disfigure the preacher, but they
oughtn't do it, now. You oughta go ahead with
him. That's one of God's men. He choose the man
and He sont him, you just go in' miss the message.
It's all in us. We who makes the difference in
the men. "I don't want to hear him. II You ought
to want to hear him. He giving you tbe word of
the Master. You ought to want to bear. That's
rigbt, 'cause you know one part of the scripture
says, flyou take the word i f it come out of a
hellish mouth. II That 's the way the scripture
reads. Take it, you take His word. It'll help
you. And condemn the man what giving it to you
if he the wrong ••• if he wrong for giving it to you.
He condemning him . He didn't condemn you. You
just take it. The word'll help you. You gotta
do like the Master says. That 's right ••
Well , I think you may not be preaching yet, but
you're witnessing.
Well, I say I got to do it. You know, God don 't
leave a prisoner, a person praise Him . He done
showed me some two or three times. I went to
work and I said, "Now I'm just goin ' to find out. II
See, I'm one of them fellows ••• l got to living
back in them old hard times and peoples didn't
know no better than to do but one thing, and
that's scramble to try to get somethin'. And we
had an old lady here once, she's one of them old
Bendolpb ladies, she used to say she dug deep
and sbe found the bottom. That 's what I done.
I dug deep and found the bottom. I got the old
time thing. You know, it's one of them Johns,
that I John, he didn't have no kinda book learning
sense at all, and he done great miracles; but all
he done is done by what God showed him. He
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couldn't do a thing but what God, the Master,
showed him. And he done it . If that hadda
been me, I'd just found early that God intended
tor me to preach, ' cause I got direct answers
from Him, in other words, through the spirit.
Now I ain't talking about physical like I'm
looking at you when He told me, yet I have to.
But, now, that's through the spiritual part of
it .
Did you have a vision?
That ' s right. That's how I found it out. I went
to work and got with Him. You know, there's a
part of His scripture tell you it ain't nothin'
that we ask of Him and He wouldn't give to
you. He'll give you anything you ask Him if
you bumble yourself.
(End Side 1, Begin Side 2)
You know, evil was getting 'twixt the people in
Christ ' s time when He had those twelve disciples
out there, and one of them outta the bunch asked
the question . He said, UMaster, who is the
greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven?" You see,
evil was gettin ' 'twixt ' em right there. And
when he asked that question , Christ called a
little bitty child, a little one, called him to
Him and picked him up and set him on His knee,
and said, "Except you come as this little child,
you can't even inherit the Kingdom of Heaven . "
Except you come as him . You see, you gotta
humble . I just say I can ' t go up to God big
like I is now. I got to come down. You see what
I 'm talking about? I ain ' t talking about getting
back a little where I is, but you be little in
spirit . You gain' get humble, too.
God ain 't huntinl no big man, no strong man, and
all that. That 's physical things. You gotta get
back down where He could handle you . He can't
handle nothing but a small person. He can ' t
handle them big fellows. You looking over people
and all that sort of things . He want a man to
do like He says. He says, "Love ye all one
another. Like I have loved with you. II Christ
didn ' t hate nobody. That's right. He ain ' t hate
nobody. And He told you plainly, He said He
made the way so plain 'til a fool he need not to
error .
And you know, you hear, some heard it, I guess,
'cause it been said a lot of times, nOld so-and-SO,
he or she, be born to go to hell. II Christ didn't
die for nobody to go to hell. Everybody that
comes in the world, they got a right to the tree
of life just like anybody else. Man or woman
dooms hisself down to hell , Miss . Don't you
agree with that? You the cause of that . Nobody
else . You didn ' t born to go there. Christ ain't
had ••• God wouldn 1 t let a man come here, send
one here prepared for hell. You prepare yourself
for that. That 's right.
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He sent you here in His image .
That l s r ight . That ' s right . If you carry his
commanderments l ike He commanded you, ain ' t
nothing no better place for you than heaven,
but you j ust got to do them thin gs . And the two
things I know man or woman could do , and they
wouldn ' t have to wor ry about heaven , they can go
ther e , it ' s just only two things , two commander­menta
out of the ten commanderments . Th er e ' s
ten , but they ' a two ther e, i f man do them two,
ain' t no way in the world to hinder a man from
heaven i f be do just t hem t wo . And the greatest
one is , "Love the Lord thy God with al l thy
heart , thy might and thy strength . " The second
one, liDo unto others 88 you would have ' em to do
unto you . II That I s the hardest thing for us to
do . We ain ' t exactly doing that .
You see what I mean? That's where us go off .
Now , if we just do just that , heaven you got a
home there . And the Bible tell you then , say , if
you keep those two commanderments, says those
two commanderments ties the whole ten commander­men
ts . You don ' t have to worry about them other
commanderments , coming on up to one , two , three ,
fo ur and five . You don ' t have to worry with them .
You got ' em, if you keep them two . They tie the
whole ten . But that ' s what the average man and
woman don ' t do . I 'll get a stick and run y ' all
away from under this hill , but don ' t run me away
from there . I want you to treat me as you do a
little chil d . You see what I mean? That ' s the
way I want you to treat me , but how come I
couldn ' t treat you like that there? That ' s what
mess us up . Right?
We kn ow so much better than we do , don ' t we?
Right , r ight, right . That ' s what He told you ,
that you doin ' them things and know ' em , he goin '
whip you with a many stripe . If you do ' em and
don ' t know ' em , He go in ' whip you with a few .
See, God ain ' t goin ' let you get by . Don ' t care
when you do wrong, you ain ' t goin ' get by no way .
But you just see this thing , I don ' t put it on
you so ha r d , you know , when you didn ' t know . But
if you know it and do it, oh , Lor d . Aw , you goin '
get punished bad, then , you knowin ' them things
and doin ' them .
Clint , did you have a vision when you were a
' teen ager and joined t he church the first time?
Did I have a vision? Well , that ' s right, ' cause
that ' s how I got religion . I ain ' t got that
religion like some of these fellows go t that just
gets up and go join the church .
You s ought fo r it a while, didn ' t you?
Right . See , all I got , I worked for it . I had
to scramble for it .
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How old were you when you first began to seek?
Seventeen years old. I was plenty old enough to
know better. If I'd a-done wrong, I was old
enough to know better. Seventeen years old.
You were a grown man .
Counted grown. I was old enough to know better.
I was an old fellow when I first started to learn
religion .
And how long did it take you to find it?
Well, I didn ' t get it the first year by being a
hard believer. I got it the second year, coming
up eighteen . I's just hard to believe, see?
Peoples bad, the older peoples bad, told me so
much about God and what He ' d do, and how you
could see them things, and I wasn't goin ' do
nothing until I could see one myself. See?
I moves according to what He shows me, too .
And when I told you somethinl of Him, that was
just it. 'Cause I saw it, too . I saw my
seeing, too. I don't do like some people would
do, sits down and listen after you , how you say ,
then go make up him something kinda of just like
you . He made it up hisself . I ain ' t gain ' make
up anything when I come down to the Lord , Miss .
The good Lord gotta show me what I 'm saying .
The Lord showed that to me. I saw it in my rest,
all right. I saw it. I didn't go out there and
thought of that . I seed it .
It was your vision?
Thatls r ight . I saw that myself.
I saw. I know that.
I know what
You remember it? You r emember your vision?
Oh, yeah, I can remember. I remember all of them
things, just like •••• that's what put me on the
mind of this preaching . After then , I commence
a - seeing all them other different things after
that, and had axed one preacher about it , tryin'
to make out I was dreaming , on account of dreams .
I know you heard of him , if you don 't know him ,
Rev . Gilbert that was up there . He told me , said,
IIWell, Clint, you j ust got to preach . That 1 s all. II
I say, IIOh, no 111 Then I went on to seeking the
God , and the more ltd seek, the more He'd show
me them things . Well, it's just one of them things.
What kind of things was He showing you? What
kind of vision did you have? Did you have one
of those spider webs, or another kind?
Well , I heard a preacher say ••••• he wanted him
some members. Been about two or three months
ago, over here to Rose Mar y . He j ust wanted him
some members, that 's what he wanted. He said it
don't take all that for peopl e to join the church
these days . See , that another reason I know,
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people leading people wrong, some of them . You
got to see yourself~in ' on across hell on a
spider web . I didn ' t say that. I didn't say you
got to see all that to believe in God, 'cause
after God showed me all them visions He showed
me, I didn't have to go to bell on 8 spider
web, or cross there on 8 spider web. I just
knowin' good what He showed me, and I knowin'
good it oughts pass. It's just like ������������••• I had
been tryin ' to get straight and go back to the
church and all that, you know, and I had prayed
hard, and then looked like, see I'm one of them
fe llows doesn ' t take anything to go with it .
Didn ' t look like God was goint to show me what
I wanted to see . And I laying ~ight there in
the hospital , and all of 8 sudden one morning,
abou~ 5 : 00 o'clock ••• see them things lll come by
just like I 'm talking to her, and all of a sudden
a little shadow III go Icross your eyes. You'll
be sleep and woke, too . And I saw myself, I had
got in a refrigerated ice house . Now, it just
warn ' t no way outta that house , that I s eed. I
started in doors along here, and when I got
about the front door , about far as that trail
up there to the back of it , well, when I got
back there, when I looked back , all the doors
where I had come through had closed up, and all
the way in the house wasn ' t nothing but ice.
And it was freezing up, and the ice was regular,
you know, coming together, and I ain ' t seed but
one thing , and that was me in there .
I couldn 't see them other men , but I coul d hear
men was in that place hollering just like I
don 't know what, ' cause you know that ice house
was closing in on ' em and was kill ing 'em out.
And I seed it was gonna get me , too. I was just
in the middle of that house , and I didn't see
but one thing to do . I just went to praying
hard , and I prayed and I prayed and what made
me kept a - praying there, when I started praying
and praying hard, the first door opened. And
the harder I prayed, every time I'd get to one of
them doors , it ' d open . I just kept a - praying
until I got to the last door, and when the door
opened, I walked out. And when I walked out
the door , I started away from there, from that
house ; and when I started away from the house ,
two polices - see, that just show you how the devil
work. Two polices, they got after me , and I
wasn't a bit more doing nothing than nothing,
and I didn lt see what t hey was running after me
for, but they got after me . And I took off away
fr om them policemen . Started to , you know, go
away from ' em, and they start to shooting at me
just like I don 't know what .
When they started to shoot , the Good Lord, see,
that just shows you if you doing r ight and living
up to God right , I was all r ight right then .
All them bullets they 're shooting, I was just
catching them right in my hand. They wasn't doing
nothing. The bullets was just about the size
of a golf ball. l' s j ust catching them right
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in my hand and just dropping ' em right down
just as they shoot. And the polices saw their
shooting wasn ' t doing any good, they started
to runn ing, coming toward me , and I kept
a - praying hard. I jumped up and started flying
up over them police , and , Miss , I don ' t a bit
more know where that helicopter come from than
I do nothing. I l ooked then up in the world,
I ' s up in the world flying; them same two police ,
I looked side of me , and ther e they come in a
helicopter and I didn't see no other chance . I
didn t t see no other way, now . I knowed t ,hey got
me now, 'cause what could I do up there in the
world when they got 8 helicopter up there and
I 'm up there, and I know they goin ' get me. And
the closer the helicopter come to me , the more I
prayed. And, now I know that was the Lord doin '
that .
See , when you get to the place, you know it ' s God.
Now, I don ' t know where it come from, but the
Lord brought a big wind. You know how them wind
arrive , a big storm like. And I ain ' t never seed
so many r usty old cups and buckets , and then He
brought a black smoke up betwixt me and that
helicopter, and all them cups got up there ,
and that ' s what made that helicopter didn ' t see
me . I l ooked and I couldn ' t see them , and they
couldn ' t see me . And I come on down and lit .
You know where I l it then? Right to the church
door. I warn ' t thinking of the church, but when
I l i t, I lit right to the chur ch door. And you
know what was good for me to do then? Go to
the church. Now, see, didn ' t need no fur ther
axing what to do. That was good enough what to
do . Go to the church .
And that l s what I done . But see now, I woke up
at the moment I looked to the church door, I
woke up. I saw, "Oooh . /I See , I wasn ' t l ooking
for this , but that 's what I saw . I went back ,
I just got scrambled , I prayed hard , I just
wouldn ' t give it up _ See, I was praying , I was
trying to find out if He had got me ready to go
back to church . See, I wanted to see myself
in one of them same thin gs , back to the church
befor e I get there . ' That ' s the reason I know if
you asking God for a thing , and if you got time
to wait on Him, He 'll do ' it .
And I just kept a - pr aying ' til the next week or
so after that , and He Showed me t he same thing .
I was back to Pleasant Gr ove Church, jining the
church , and the momen t I saw myself bad jined
the church , I woke right back up . Now , see ,
wasn ' t no use of me axing nobody, "What to do . /I
Nothing but go on back to the church. That was
it, j ust go back t o the chur ch . God ' ll do any­thing
that you ax Him to do , but you know what
make it wr ong wi th us today. We kinds dead like
before the coming of Christ . Nowl, this was
before Christ come .
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You remember when you hearin' about Abraham?
See, Abraham wasn't named Abraham back at that
time , he was named Abram. And his wife was
Sarah , and be 's an old man , and his wife was well
stricken in age, the Bible say_ And God had
told Abraham about raising chillun , and Sarah
didn 't have time to wait on the Lord . Sarah
got in 8 hurry to get her chillun . She want
her chillun now. That's the reason she sent
Abraham into a maid she had there, and then
when he did do It ••• see how the devil got in
her then? •�� the child had to go . Well, that's
today. If you got time to wait on the Lord,
the Lord He comin', but see you got to have time.
Lot of us ain't got time to wait on Him. Ain't
got time . See , that's the reason the peoples
be done pushin' me , IIWhy'nt you go ahead?1I
There be somethin' I working at and I don't
wanna move ' til I get the password from the
Ma ster. I wanted a password .
You mean to prea'ch, now?
That ' s right. I had to get my password . He
had to l d me true enough , but something else I
needed to know, and I needed to know it from Him .
You got it?
I got it now.
Well, what are you going to do about it?
I tol d you I coming on ; it won't be long. I be
up there. It won't be long . I just gotta do
like I supposed to do , I gotta go , you know ,
wash my clothes a little bit, then I be on .
When you get your path, you just go wash your
clothes and go on up there. I got to get my
clothes clean . My clothes are half dirty . You
just can ' t go to God any kinda way . I 'm funny.
When 1 1m goin l to Him, I want to be just about
right as I could. ' Cause you can't go to Him
playin '. God know we goin' to sin before He
even made man . He knowed we were go in , to sin .
He told you you were goin' do it . That's the r eason
He told you to do the best you could . But now,
He catch me and I ain't doin l the best . He goin'
sho' do the rest,too , ' cause He goin ' let me go .
That ' s right .
When you decide you 're going to start your preach­ing,
I want to come down here and be in your
church .
Wanna see my sheep? Well , Miss, you know I ain ' t
goin' let this year pass and nothing happen.
Like I tellin ' a fellow Sunday, well, it ain ' t
goin' be over sixty days from today . If it
won' t be next month, it 'll be month after next.
October or November, it'll be one of them months now.
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If that ' s the sign you get .
The Man what sent me , if He be with me , I' l l
be up there . See , I ain' t gain ' up there on
my own , and didn ' t wan t to go . He who sent
me up there . And the people just have to go
a l ong with me and take what comes , ' cause I
didn' t ax to go up there . I didn ' t want t o
15
go up there no way , but I was sent . That ' s
r ight . I was sent up there . I want l em to go
' long with me , ' cause , well , when God send a
man , God know what He was doin '.
Did your daddy preach?
He had just started when
started . That ' s right .
reckon that ' s the reason
hadn ' t a -had it , or done
missed it .
he died . He bad just
And I come along; I
I bad to do it . He
a lot of it , I coulde
Now , how ol d was he when he died? He was an
ol der man , wasn ' t be?
He hadn ' t got as ol d as I am now, ' cause he was
f i fty - six years ol d . He had gotten to fifty - s i x .
I done got two year s older than he was . I ' m a
lot ol der than Mama . She died forty years .
It was the year she got fo r ty year s old and died
in '40 . That ' s r i ght . She for ty years old when
she died .
In 1940?
Rigbt .
Well , did your gr andfather preach?
He didn ' t ••• ' til he got to be a real old man , he
didn't jo in the church ' til he was about •••• well ,
he ' s a l ittle over a hundr ed year s ol d , 1cause
he got one hundr ed and twenty .
He was the oldest man down her e then , wasn ' t he?
Right . ' Nother one her e just about as old as
him . Man named Campbell. Don ' t you kn ow
Kingman Campbell was her e? You oughta know some
Campbell s . That was his daddy . He ' s one hundred
t wenty years old . He was William Campbel l .
And your granddaddy was named what?
Saul. S- a - u- l . Saul Johnson. He come here as
a Johnson but he was changed t o a Pettway . That ' s
right . He was a Johnson when he come her e .
Where is he buried?
He buried up ther e somewher e . But along about
the time they buried h i m, about twenty- seven years
ago , they wasn' t puttin' them s t ones down. It 1s
pr ett y b ard t o find. You just can ' t har dly find
him now . They warn' t putting ' em ar ound the church
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like they doin' now. They putting them little
head boards over them so you can tell about who
it was, when they died and all that stuff; when
they born, when they die. They wasn' t doin'
that then. Just buryin' 'em and leavin' lem, and
after a-while, you wouldn't know where it was.
That's the way all of 'em buried. They don't know
where them people at. All you know, you carried
'em to the grave and put ' em down and that's
just it.
And be was one hundred and twenty?
That's right.
Well, you don't remember him, though, do you?
Well, I do, too. Much as I stayed there. He
stayed right here. He stayed here 'til they got
through building up this place, 'cause he bad one
of those same houses. He'd .leave out the house
Roger's in, up there, right now, and they moved
to Mobile. That 's where he died at, in Mobile.
About when?
i believe he died somewhere in '50 something.
Well , you were a grown man?
I was old grown when he died. I knowed him good .
I stayed round him.
Did he keep his mind all right?
He kept some. That other granddaddy , that William
on Mama's side, he lived to get nigety something.
He was right at a hundred. He was ninety some­thing.
That was Israel, and Herman's and Clint O.'s
daddy. Old man Ottoway . You know that old
O-t-t-o-w-a-y. He right up in one hundred. He
was ninety something years old. Them folks
lived a long time back in then. They outliving
these men here today.
Us was here in the hard times, I'm tellin' you.
Us had many hard days. Time s was hard along then.
And one way the peoples were more •••• well, they'd
get along with one another better than they do
now. You know why? 'Cause didn't nobody have
any money along them, and you didn't have no more
than me and I didn't have no more than you, and
you'd give it all up and help me.
(End Side 2, Tape 1)

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Holding.Institution

Birmingham Public Library (Alabama)

Full Text

1
Interview with Clint Pettway
Date of Interview: September 25, 1980; Gee's Bend, Alabama
Interviewer: Kathryn Tucker Windham
Transcriber : Edna O. Meek
Begin Side 1 , Tape 1
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This is Clint Pettway, on the river bank , down
here working on a fish net. He ' s going to tell
us some tales. Clint, where do you live?
Not far up there, not far up there.
Close to Lucy?
Who?
Lucy _
Which one?
Pettway.
Yeah , that ' s a first cousin of mine, talking
about Lucy Pettway there. Tha t big , dark lady,
that's Lucy Pettway there. Me and her first
cousins . Sister and brother's chillun . We off
the same •••• sister of that woman I telling you
from that same South Carolina man's son.
Now, tell me again what you said about a bed
ticking .
Well, you see, at that time old man Pettway bought
Saul from South Carol i na. That's where he come
from as a little boy . He didn ' t buy him, he bought
his Mama. And you know how a lady is about her
chillun. And the man was selling her an d got to
leave the chile. He was just throwed away. And
she stole him and put him in a bed ticking. Sewed
him up in a bed ticking. That's how she slipped
him on the train and got him here .
And that was your great grandfather?
My father's father, that's right.
Your grandfather.
Right, he's a grandfather, that's right. Now, he
wasn't no Pettway now . And his mama wasn ' t no
Pettway. Them was Johnsons. Them wasn't no Pett­ways.
But when old man Pettway bought 'em, he
was a Pettway then. That's right. He come to
be a Pettway. He wasn't one first. See, peoples
be hollering all us is kin in here, they's kin.
Them peoples ain't near as kin as you ,think they
is. But they short of learning down in here, you
know, they didn't know no better. Everything went
to born later on, they 'just named 'em Pettway.
Didn't care where it come from, he just had a
Pettway. If he went somewhere and got a man outta
anywhere, he changed his name to a Pettway. Just
loved the Pettway family, I reckon .
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Wasn't he a Pettway himself?
Who?
Uniden. Person: This man who bought?
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Oh, yeah, he was a white man, just like those men
there, but he was a Pettway, and everybody he'd
buy and bring in here, they had to be a Pettway,
too. Old man Pettway, one who owned the place,
some of them peoples done live up there yet,
some of them is. He owned the place in here.
And he sold it to the VandeGraaffs, didn't he?
That's right . Them VandeGraaffs got it after
them.
And they sold it to the government .
Sold it to the government , and that's why we
get it then, that's how we get it. That 's right.
That 's the way it come out, now.
Do you remember the VandeGraaffs?
I remember lem good . Old man Hargrove. He was
a good old man. You want to get by, get with him.
You had it made if you ever got to Old Man Hargrove.
I was one of the ones was on his place. He stayed
right up there on that hill, from them Day Care
Centers up there. That's where he stayed, right
up there. Old Man Hargrove did.
Now, w'as ,it close to the cemetery, that little
cemetery up on the hill?
That 's right, right from that little cemetery.
That 's where he stayed, in the house right there.
What did that house look like?
Well, it was a, you know, a great big house, kinda
like a, you know how the old make a-house made
back there then? Somethin' like an old two-story
building, but it wasn't no two- story building or
all that. It was just made kinda like that.
That's where he stayed, right up in an old house
like that at that time.
And the government tore that house down, didn 't
they?
That's right, tore it down, that's right. That 's
where we had to always whup him about it, with
our mouths. Old man named John Henry Miller stayed
right there in that house with old man Hargrove.
See, he used to work for the man, and there was
an old chest stayed there in that house all the
time, after them Hargroves was gone, and it had
all types of money in the thing, and he wouldn't
let nobody go in there and bother it. And when
they went to build the place up there, those
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other peoples come in and got it and go t the
money out of it. He was rich and didn ' t know it .
Stayed right in the house with him. He was a rich
man, rich and didn ' t know it . All types of money ,
silver and gold in there, and he just let it all
stay_ The biggest of them were old men that died,
just leave it there. The house waS in his charge,
and he just lived right there with that money and
let somebody come here from I don't know wher e and
got the money right out of the house . Broke the
chest open , took them torches and cut it loose.
I t was 8 kind of safe it was in?
That ' s right . Sorts l ike them money chests, if
you don ' t know the combination , you ain ' t going
to open it . Them made in them days , wasn't 8
young man that knowed the combination on ' em, no~ay .
And they just got the torches and got in there?
That ' s right, t hey got into it. That's right.
We had tried it ther e . When ~e Mere building up
the place, we got lucky when they was up there
one day tearing it down . We took sludge hammers
and done ever y way we could to bust it open, and
we just couldn't get in it. Them other men , they
got in there . They had a little more sense than
~e did . They kno~ed ho~ to get in there , and ~e
didn ' t . They got a torch, and we had sludge
hammers . If ~e ' d a - got in there , I ' d a - got some­thing
then. I couldn ' t get in there . That was
j ust all . I just couldn't get in there .
Now , is that ~hen Mr . Cammack was down here?
That ' s long the same time he is . He took over the
place, the same ·time. That ' s in Cammack ' s time .
That's right .
He didn ' t get any of that money either, did he?
Well, I tell you , he didn ' t much need it , in one
way , ' cause he done just like a man ~ould do.
Everything ~as on the place , he sold it and kept
it hisself , anyway . I didn' t see ~hy he needed
that. He sold everythi ng ~as on the place . He
sol d it. And it ~as it . That ' s r ight . It ain't
a country in the world been no r icher one than
this one , and ~e didn ' t get it . The other man got
it . We j ust didn ' t get it . I know I see them
same barges of gravel comin ' a~ay from up there,
and a man on the other s i de of Mobile somewhere
gettin ' it . That ' s come off some of them fellers'
place stay right up there around that other store
up there . See how we missed all of that? They
been hauling that stuff for five or six years ,
and you see how it go. All the timber and every­thing
come out of here , old man Cammack got i t.
He got it made outta that timber. It ~as cheap,
but there was so much of it in there . It ~as l ogs
i n her e then , l ogs get big as them vans up there .
They had to get a special sa~ to saw the t r ees
down . You ge t on tree sawi ng down here- you know
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they had the old make of saws then, you bad to
use them with your hand . You couldn't hardly
see your buddy. You better go around on the
other side and look. You couldn 't look around
the tree Bnd see him. It was some trees in herel
Mr. Cammack got rich off them kind of it . Along
then he did. It been 8 rich place. It kinds
pore now. But it still all right. And it somethin'
around here right now. That's the reason you
see th at dam right down there right this marnin '.
It's somethln ' in her e, but what it is we don't
know. And never will know . I reckon the chillun
will see it. That ls why you always hear it say
the big fish eat the little ones up . See, the big
man got it and the little one can't get it . Helll
find out . The big man know what down there, but
the little one don 't, and the big man got somethin '
to get it and the little one ain't. That's what
the difference . If they's oil or gas or anything
he wants, and it's out there in that water, all
he got to do is set up a rig and he got somethin '
out there to go down and get it . If I had an oil
well out there, how would I get it? It wouldn't
do me any good, 'cause I couldn't get it 'way
from out there.
Clint, were you down here when Mr . Rentz broke up
the folks?
That's right.
Was your family broke up?
I wasn't around when Mr. Rentz here . I know who
you talking about. That ' s the time he haul all
that cotton, corn, hogs. He took everything . It
wasn't none of him. It was kinda of a, well •••
we had to give it to him , but it just wasn ' t his .
But now, that wasn't none of the man that time,
now. We just had to give to who was dOing it.
That was that Miss done it. The Old Man died,
and the lady couldn't stand the stone. She took
everything, she just took it all. That was the
woman done that, that wasn't the man. The men
was gone. She's the one done that . That ' s right.
I been here a long time. I come through a lot.
I been here a long time . I'm fifty - eight years .
That wasn't yesterday now .
(Note: Here follows a d iscussion of ages
between members of this assorted group of people
sitting on the river bank.)
Clint, do you belong to the Pleasant Grove Baptist
Church?
That's right.
That's where I've seen you then.
That 's right. I be there practically every meetin'
day mostly, and I don't have but a few I missed
these days . See, when a man done got old, there
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ain't but one thing to do : stick close around
the Master 's place. Now, that's all I can tell
a man; that's all that ' s goin ' to help . But you
know, when you young, you don 't figure that. If
they thinks in time when they young, it go all
the way through, but I didn't see it 'til I got
to tha place I thought I' d die.
How long ago was that?
Ainlt been so long ago.
About two or three years ago?
About ' 77, I thought, I figured then I died.
Uniden . Person: You were bit by a snake, weren't you?
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New , I went to the hospital, and couldntt never,
like to never get outta there. Stayed there nine
months. Man , I tellin' the truthl
Where were you , Good Samaritan?
First I was in Thomasville . Stayed there about
two months. Come from there and went to the Medical
Center in Selma. Stayed there three. Went to
Montgomery hospital, and finished out in Mont­gomery
. When I leave there •••• I make it now. Got
to them good doctors up there . Better doctors up
there than it was down in these little towns.
Some good ones up in Selma all right now . The
best ones over at the Medical Center in Selma,
them's the best doctors.
Dr . Moseley?
Moseley , and then there's another one, Cox ••
I helped raise him.
You raised a good doctor, too . Old Dr . Cox .
Moseley and Howell , that ls a medical doctor . He
ain't a surgeon, be a medical doctor, but that ls
a good doctor , now. Them my three men . Me and
Dr . Moseley could make it anyway. All I gotta
do is get with him .
He likes this kind of stuff , too. Have you ever
taken him fishing?
Dr . Mosel ey does? Well , he need to be down here
now .
11m going to tell him to come down here and go
fishing with you .
He know
he know
right .
me, now. You ever bring up a Pettway,
me. He know the one he skin grafted , all
He know me good .
Did you get burned?
Nolm . Just a diabetic , thatls what it was .
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But weren ' t you bit?
No'm, I wasn ' t bit . I was diabetic . Diabetic
troubles . And I ain ' t seed no way out of it.
Gotta give Dr . Moseley credit. I ain ' t s eed no
way in the world for me to keep to have legs
to walk on . It ' s three good doctors in the
Medical Center Hospital , and if you got some­thing
hurt about you, go there . If they can ' t
fix you , they'll send you on to Birmingham or
Montgomery. But they ' re more ' n apt to get you
there . Most l ikel y. Dr . Moseley and them are
just about as good a doctors in the lower part
of the south as you ' re gain ' find. You can ' t
beat him . He ' s a good doctor .
He ' s a good roan , too . They all are .
I know him , now . When he get through killing
you , you get better. If you could just stand
what they do to you.
Well , that ' s when you decided you better get
right up here at this church .
Understand , now , I had been there once . But you
know how it is with a person when they gets slack .
I done kinda like Jonah , you know. He went his
way, and that's what I had done . I went my way .
And Jonah didn ' ~ have no good luck , and me , I
didn ' t either .
He got in the whale and you got in the hospital .
Right . I was just in as worse a shape as Jonah
was . Warn ' t a bit better off . I started down
and then I didn ' t never stop , and that ' s what the
trouble with Jonah : he started down and didn't
never quit going down , down , down , down . And
when he wound up, he was down in Nineveh where
he was sent. That ' s right . I wound up just
like Jonah .
But were you baptized down there in the creek?
In that same creek down there where they go now .
The same creek .
Who baptized you?
Rev .
name
Carey .
William
The one
Carey .
down at our church . His
Will iam, that was his name .
He was here when the government project came along?
That ' s right . He was • • •• he had been here , stayed
her e al l his days , but had moved r ight up there ,
staying r ight up there s i de that Herbert place up
there , all up in Mitchell land , right up there
befor e you get to them hills that go to going up .
And he had him a house built and moved right across
the branch over there . That ' s where he died at,
over there.
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And when they baptized you down there, did they
sing about •••• what is that song they sing at the
baptizings down there at the creek? Sing it
every time. ULet_a Me Ride!!.
Yeah , they sing that one mostly when they got
you back to the church. I tryin' to think of that
song, what it is. I know it and then can't call
it, right at the moment.
I thought maybe you could sing it for me .
Aw, no, I can't sing it. It have to take somebody ••
I'm a follower. I have to follow the others.
See, what made me slack up this church like that,
I told you, I'm like Jonah. God had told Jonah
to go down to Niniveh and preach to them peoples
down there. Jonah didn't want to do that. He
done everythi ng he cou~d do but go to Niniveh
right then. See , he tryin' to get out from serving
the Lord. See , I knowed I bad to preach, too,
and I was doing everything I could to miss it.
And you know, I wound up and got to get right by
and come right up there to God. About the only
thing I could help Dr. Moseley and them out with
was when I decided and made it back there with
another contract with the Lord, if He get me up
and get me better, I goin ' carry His word. And
now I still to let a year go by and I still
hadn't ••••••
You see, that's a Man you can't make contracts
with and break 'em. I can break 'em with you,
but then me and you, you'll kinda feel for me and
lemme get by. But, now, you can't play with that
Man . That's a Man you don't play with. He ain't
goin' take your excuses, either. I gotta do a
l ittle somethin'. I'm doin' all that, tryin' to
get by, and I just couldn't make it. Shot couldn't.
Do you preach any now?
Nolm. I ain't started yet, but it look like I
got to. I haven't started. That's what I tryin'
to do then, tryin' to get out. See, that ain't
nare easy job. Peoples be settin' down lookin'
at the preacher up there, but that's just about
one of the worst things that could be done.
Don't nobody know it but them what have to do
that. Them what ain't got to do it , it look
like he can do anything. I hear people say, "If
the Lord had,da told me to preach, I'd do this. II
Ain't nothin' so like that, 'cause he wouldn't
do it, for if it something He did tell you, God
give everybody a duty to do, and they ain't dOing
that. 'Cause He commanded them to walk in His
steps and keep His commanderments like He
commanded them to, and now you see how they zig­wag
walking, don't you? Well, OK, then. How
you goin ' preach then? If you got to do all that,
you could keep the commanderments. That's right.
But after you didn't keep the commanderments, that's
just the way you wouldn't have preached when He
told you. See, I know 'em. I ain't saw a preacher
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yet that wanted to preach. That's somethin'
he can't get by. It ain't somethin' be want to
do, it's what he got to do. He don't want to
do it .
It's 8 burden placed on him.
Right. And everybody setting there lookin' and
depending on pore you. You got all them folks in
front of you there. That ' s just like a man drivin '
a bus, bus full, and everything in there settin'
up there depending on one driver now; and he got
f em all in his charge right then. If anything
go wrong, it charged to him . Regardless, it charged
to the bus driver. That's the way the preacher is.
The Lord charges it to him. He got 8 load on his
hands, all right. That's the reason they don 't
want to pull it . But God got him out there, and
it was in the beginning that God put the ••• you
know Christ had 'em with Him, when He choose
those tw-"wlve men. And He give 'em their key, and
that's the men today, too. He out there, and you
just as wells agree with Him when He come up there,
'cause He asked you a good question: IIHow can you
hear without the preacher?1I And how come the
preacher preach if he wasn't sent? God had to
send him. Now , you just might as well hear him.
Heap of people disfigure the preacher, but they
oughtn't do it, now. You oughta go ahead with
him. That's one of God's men. He choose the man
and He sont him, you just go in' miss the message.
It's all in us. We who makes the difference in
the men. "I don't want to hear him. II You ought
to want to hear him. He giving you tbe word of
the Master. You ought to want to bear. That's
rigbt, 'cause you know one part of the scripture
says, flyou take the word i f it come out of a
hellish mouth. II That 's the way the scripture
reads. Take it, you take His word. It'll help
you. And condemn the man what giving it to you
if he the wrong ••• if he wrong for giving it to you.
He condemning him . He didn't condemn you. You
just take it. The word'll help you. You gotta
do like the Master says. That 's right ••
Well , I think you may not be preaching yet, but
you're witnessing.
Well, I say I got to do it. You know, God don 't
leave a prisoner, a person praise Him . He done
showed me some two or three times. I went to
work and I said, "Now I'm just goin ' to find out. II
See, I'm one of them fellows ••• l got to living
back in them old hard times and peoples didn't
know no better than to do but one thing, and
that's scramble to try to get somethin'. And we
had an old lady here once, she's one of them old
Bendolpb ladies, she used to say she dug deep
and sbe found the bottom. That 's what I done.
I dug deep and found the bottom. I got the old
time thing. You know, it's one of them Johns,
that I John, he didn't have no kinda book learning
sense at all, and he done great miracles; but all
he done is done by what God showed him. He
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couldn't do a thing but what God, the Master,
showed him. And he done it . If that hadda
been me, I'd just found early that God intended
tor me to preach, ' cause I got direct answers
from Him, in other words, through the spirit.
Now I ain't talking about physical like I'm
looking at you when He told me, yet I have to.
But, now, that's through the spiritual part of
it .
Did you have a vision?
That ' s right. That's how I found it out. I went
to work and got with Him. You know, there's a
part of His scripture tell you it ain't nothin'
that we ask of Him and He wouldn't give to
you. He'll give you anything you ask Him if
you bumble yourself.
(End Side 1, Begin Side 2)
You know, evil was getting 'twixt the people in
Christ ' s time when He had those twelve disciples
out there, and one of them outta the bunch asked
the question . He said, UMaster, who is the
greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven?" You see,
evil was gettin ' 'twixt ' em right there. And
when he asked that question , Christ called a
little bitty child, a little one, called him to
Him and picked him up and set him on His knee,
and said, "Except you come as this little child,
you can't even inherit the Kingdom of Heaven . "
Except you come as him . You see, you gotta
humble . I just say I can ' t go up to God big
like I is now. I got to come down. You see what
I 'm talking about? I ain ' t talking about getting
back a little where I is, but you be little in
spirit . You gain' get humble, too.
God ain 't huntinl no big man, no strong man, and
all that. That 's physical things. You gotta get
back down where He could handle you . He can't
handle nothing but a small person. He can ' t
handle them big fellows. You looking over people
and all that sort of things . He want a man to
do like He says. He says, "Love ye all one
another. Like I have loved with you. II Christ
didn ' t hate nobody. That's right. He ain ' t hate
nobody. And He told you plainly, He said He
made the way so plain 'til a fool he need not to
error .
And you know, you hear, some heard it, I guess,
'cause it been said a lot of times, nOld so-and-SO,
he or she, be born to go to hell. II Christ didn't
die for nobody to go to hell. Everybody that
comes in the world, they got a right to the tree
of life just like anybody else. Man or woman
dooms hisself down to hell , Miss . Don't you
agree with that? You the cause of that . Nobody
else . You didn ' t born to go there. Christ ain't
had ••• God wouldn 1 t let a man come here, send
one here prepared for hell. You prepare yourself
for that. That 's right.
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He sent you here in His image .
That l s r ight . That ' s right . If you carry his
commanderments l ike He commanded you, ain ' t
nothing no better place for you than heaven,
but you j ust got to do them thin gs . And the two
things I know man or woman could do , and they
wouldn ' t have to wor ry about heaven , they can go
ther e , it ' s just only two things , two commander­menta
out of the ten commanderments . Th er e ' s
ten , but they ' a two ther e, i f man do them two,
ain' t no way in the world to hinder a man from
heaven i f be do just t hem t wo . And the greatest
one is , "Love the Lord thy God with al l thy
heart , thy might and thy strength . " The second
one, liDo unto others 88 you would have ' em to do
unto you . II That I s the hardest thing for us to
do . We ain ' t exactly doing that .
You see what I mean? That's where us go off .
Now , if we just do just that , heaven you got a
home there . And the Bible tell you then , say , if
you keep those two commanderments, says those
two commanderments ties the whole ten commander­men
ts . You don ' t have to worry about them other
commanderments , coming on up to one , two , three ,
fo ur and five . You don ' t have to worry with them .
You got ' em, if you keep them two . They tie the
whole ten . But that ' s what the average man and
woman don ' t do . I 'll get a stick and run y ' all
away from under this hill , but don ' t run me away
from there . I want you to treat me as you do a
little chil d . You see what I mean? That ' s the
way I want you to treat me , but how come I
couldn ' t treat you like that there? That ' s what
mess us up . Right?
We kn ow so much better than we do , don ' t we?
Right , r ight, right . That ' s what He told you ,
that you doin ' them things and know ' em , he goin '
whip you with a many stripe . If you do ' em and
don ' t know ' em , He go in ' whip you with a few .
See, God ain ' t goin ' let you get by . Don ' t care
when you do wrong, you ain ' t goin ' get by no way .
But you just see this thing , I don ' t put it on
you so ha r d , you know , when you didn ' t know . But
if you know it and do it, oh , Lor d . Aw , you goin '
get punished bad, then , you knowin ' them things
and doin ' them .
Clint , did you have a vision when you were a
' teen ager and joined t he church the first time?
Did I have a vision? Well , that ' s right, ' cause
that ' s how I got religion . I ain ' t got that
religion like some of these fellows go t that just
gets up and go join the church .
You s ought fo r it a while, didn ' t you?
Right . See , all I got , I worked for it . I had
to scramble for it .
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How old were you when you first began to seek?
Seventeen years old. I was plenty old enough to
know better. If I'd a-done wrong, I was old
enough to know better. Seventeen years old.
You were a grown man .
Counted grown. I was old enough to know better.
I was an old fellow when I first started to learn
religion .
And how long did it take you to find it?
Well, I didn ' t get it the first year by being a
hard believer. I got it the second year, coming
up eighteen . I's just hard to believe, see?
Peoples bad, the older peoples bad, told me so
much about God and what He ' d do, and how you
could see them things, and I wasn't goin ' do
nothing until I could see one myself. See?
I moves according to what He shows me, too .
And when I told you somethinl of Him, that was
just it. 'Cause I saw it, too . I saw my
seeing, too. I don't do like some people would
do, sits down and listen after you , how you say ,
then go make up him something kinda of just like
you . He made it up hisself . I ain ' t gain ' make
up anything when I come down to the Lord , Miss .
The good Lord gotta show me what I 'm saying .
The Lord showed that to me. I saw it in my rest,
all right. I saw it. I didn't go out there and
thought of that . I seed it .
It was your vision?
Thatls r ight . I saw that myself.
I saw. I know that.
I know what
You remember it? You r emember your vision?
Oh, yeah, I can remember. I remember all of them
things, just like •••• that's what put me on the
mind of this preaching . After then , I commence
a - seeing all them other different things after
that, and had axed one preacher about it , tryin'
to make out I was dreaming , on account of dreams .
I know you heard of him , if you don 't know him ,
Rev . Gilbert that was up there . He told me , said,
IIWell, Clint, you j ust got to preach . That 1 s all. II
I say, IIOh, no 111 Then I went on to seeking the
God , and the more ltd seek, the more He'd show
me them things . Well, it's just one of them things.
What kind of things was He showing you? What
kind of vision did you have? Did you have one
of those spider webs, or another kind?
Well , I heard a preacher say ••••• he wanted him
some members. Been about two or three months
ago, over here to Rose Mar y . He j ust wanted him
some members, that 's what he wanted. He said it
don't take all that for peopl e to join the church
these days . See , that another reason I know,
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people leading people wrong, some of them . You
got to see yourself~in ' on across hell on a
spider web . I didn ' t say that. I didn't say you
got to see all that to believe in God, 'cause
after God showed me all them visions He showed
me, I didn't have to go to bell on 8 spider
web, or cross there on 8 spider web. I just
knowin' good what He showed me, and I knowin'
good it oughts pass. It's just like ������������••• I had
been tryin ' to get straight and go back to the
church and all that, you know, and I had prayed
hard, and then looked like, see I'm one of them
fe llows doesn ' t take anything to go with it .
Didn ' t look like God was goint to show me what
I wanted to see . And I laying ~ight there in
the hospital , and all of 8 sudden one morning,
abou~ 5 : 00 o'clock ••• see them things lll come by
just like I 'm talking to her, and all of a sudden
a little shadow III go Icross your eyes. You'll
be sleep and woke, too . And I saw myself, I had
got in a refrigerated ice house . Now, it just
warn ' t no way outta that house , that I s eed. I
started in doors along here, and when I got
about the front door , about far as that trail
up there to the back of it , well, when I got
back there, when I looked back , all the doors
where I had come through had closed up, and all
the way in the house wasn ' t nothing but ice.
And it was freezing up, and the ice was regular,
you know, coming together, and I ain ' t seed but
one thing , and that was me in there .
I couldn 't see them other men , but I coul d hear
men was in that place hollering just like I
don 't know what, ' cause you know that ice house
was closing in on ' em and was kill ing 'em out.
And I seed it was gonna get me , too. I was just
in the middle of that house , and I didn't see
but one thing to do . I just went to praying
hard , and I prayed and I prayed and what made
me kept a - praying there, when I started praying
and praying hard, the first door opened. And
the harder I prayed, every time I'd get to one of
them doors , it ' d open . I just kept a - praying
until I got to the last door, and when the door
opened, I walked out. And when I walked out
the door , I started away from there, from that
house ; and when I started away from the house ,
two polices - see, that just show you how the devil
work. Two polices, they got after me , and I
wasn't a bit more doing nothing than nothing,
and I didn lt see what t hey was running after me
for, but they got after me . And I took off away
fr om them policemen . Started to , you know, go
away from ' em, and they start to shooting at me
just like I don 't know what .
When they started to shoot , the Good Lord, see,
that just shows you if you doing r ight and living
up to God right , I was all r ight right then .
All them bullets they 're shooting, I was just
catching them right in my hand. They wasn't doing
nothing. The bullets was just about the size
of a golf ball. l' s j ust catching them right
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in my hand and just dropping ' em right down
just as they shoot. And the polices saw their
shooting wasn ' t doing any good, they started
to runn ing, coming toward me , and I kept
a - praying hard. I jumped up and started flying
up over them police , and , Miss , I don ' t a bit
more know where that helicopter come from than
I do nothing. I l ooked then up in the world,
I ' s up in the world flying; them same two police ,
I looked side of me , and ther e they come in a
helicopter and I didn't see no other chance . I
didn t t see no other way, now . I knowed t ,hey got
me now, 'cause what could I do up there in the
world when they got 8 helicopter up there and
I 'm up there, and I know they goin ' get me. And
the closer the helicopter come to me , the more I
prayed. And, now I know that was the Lord doin '
that .
See , when you get to the place, you know it ' s God.
Now, I don ' t know where it come from, but the
Lord brought a big wind. You know how them wind
arrive , a big storm like. And I ain ' t never seed
so many r usty old cups and buckets , and then He
brought a black smoke up betwixt me and that
helicopter, and all them cups got up there ,
and that ' s what made that helicopter didn ' t see
me . I l ooked and I couldn ' t see them , and they
couldn ' t see me . And I come on down and lit .
You know where I l it then? Right to the church
door. I warn ' t thinking of the church, but when
I l i t, I lit right to the chur ch door. And you
know what was good for me to do then? Go to
the church. Now, see, didn ' t need no fur ther
axing what to do. That was good enough what to
do . Go to the church .
And that l s what I done . But see now, I woke up
at the moment I looked to the church door, I
woke up. I saw, "Oooh . /I See , I wasn ' t l ooking
for this , but that 's what I saw . I went back ,
I just got scrambled , I prayed hard , I just
wouldn ' t give it up _ See, I was praying , I was
trying to find out if He had got me ready to go
back to church . See, I wanted to see myself
in one of them same thin gs , back to the church
befor e I get there . ' That ' s the reason I know if
you asking God for a thing , and if you got time
to wait on Him, He 'll do ' it .
And I just kept a - pr aying ' til the next week or
so after that , and He Showed me t he same thing .
I was back to Pleasant Gr ove Church, jining the
church , and the momen t I saw myself bad jined
the church , I woke right back up . Now , see ,
wasn ' t no use of me axing nobody, "What to do . /I
Nothing but go on back to the church. That was
it, j ust go back t o the chur ch . God ' ll do any­thing
that you ax Him to do , but you know what
make it wr ong wi th us today. We kinds dead like
before the coming of Christ . Nowl, this was
before Christ come .
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You remember when you hearin' about Abraham?
See, Abraham wasn't named Abraham back at that
time , he was named Abram. And his wife was
Sarah , and be 's an old man , and his wife was well
stricken in age, the Bible say_ And God had
told Abraham about raising chillun , and Sarah
didn 't have time to wait on the Lord . Sarah
got in 8 hurry to get her chillun . She want
her chillun now. That's the reason she sent
Abraham into a maid she had there, and then
when he did do It ••• see how the devil got in
her then? •�� the child had to go . Well, that's
today. If you got time to wait on the Lord,
the Lord He comin', but see you got to have time.
Lot of us ain't got time to wait on Him. Ain't
got time . See , that's the reason the peoples
be done pushin' me , IIWhy'nt you go ahead?1I
There be somethin' I working at and I don't
wanna move ' til I get the password from the
Ma ster. I wanted a password .
You mean to prea'ch, now?
That ' s right. I had to get my password . He
had to l d me true enough , but something else I
needed to know, and I needed to know it from Him .
You got it?
I got it now.
Well, what are you going to do about it?
I tol d you I coming on ; it won't be long. I be
up there. It won't be long . I just gotta do
like I supposed to do , I gotta go , you know ,
wash my clothes a little bit, then I be on .
When you get your path, you just go wash your
clothes and go on up there. I got to get my
clothes clean . My clothes are half dirty . You
just can ' t go to God any kinda way . I 'm funny.
When 1 1m goin l to Him, I want to be just about
right as I could. ' Cause you can't go to Him
playin '. God know we goin' to sin before He
even made man . He knowed we were go in , to sin .
He told you you were goin' do it . That's the r eason
He told you to do the best you could . But now,
He catch me and I ain't doin l the best . He goin'
sho' do the rest,too , ' cause He goin ' let me go .
That ' s right .
When you decide you 're going to start your preach­ing,
I want to come down here and be in your
church .
Wanna see my sheep? Well , Miss, you know I ain ' t
goin' let this year pass and nothing happen.
Like I tellin ' a fellow Sunday, well, it ain ' t
goin' be over sixty days from today . If it
won' t be next month, it 'll be month after next.
October or November, it'll be one of them months now.
KTW:
c . Pe t tway :
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C. Pettwey :
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C. Pettway :
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C. Pettway :
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C. Pettway:
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C. Pettway:
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If that ' s the sign you get .
The Man what sent me , if He be with me , I' l l
be up there . See , I ain' t gain ' up there on
my own , and didn ' t wan t to go . He who sent
me up there . And the people just have to go
a l ong with me and take what comes , ' cause I
didn' t ax to go up there . I didn ' t want t o
15
go up there no way , but I was sent . That ' s
r ight . I was sent up there . I want l em to go
' long with me , ' cause , well , when God send a
man , God know what He was doin '.
Did your daddy preach?
He had just started when
started . That ' s right .
reckon that ' s the reason
hadn ' t a -had it , or done
missed it .
he died . He bad just
And I come along; I
I bad to do it . He
a lot of it , I coulde
Now , how ol d was he when he died? He was an
ol der man , wasn ' t be?
He hadn ' t got as ol d as I am now, ' cause he was
f i fty - six years ol d . He had gotten to fifty - s i x .
I done got two year s older than he was . I ' m a
lot ol der than Mama . She died forty years .
It was the year she got fo r ty year s old and died
in '40 . That ' s r i ght . She for ty years old when
she died .
In 1940?
Rigbt .
Well , did your gr andfather preach?
He didn ' t ••• ' til he got to be a real old man , he
didn't jo in the church ' til he was about •••• well ,
he ' s a l ittle over a hundr ed year s ol d , 1cause
he got one hundr ed and twenty .
He was the oldest man down her e then , wasn ' t he?
Right . ' Nother one her e just about as old as
him . Man named Campbell. Don ' t you kn ow
Kingman Campbell was her e? You oughta know some
Campbell s . That was his daddy . He ' s one hundred
t wenty years old . He was William Campbel l .
And your granddaddy was named what?
Saul. S- a - u- l . Saul Johnson. He come here as
a Johnson but he was changed t o a Pettway . That ' s
right . He was a Johnson when he come her e .
Where is he buried?
He buried up ther e somewher e . But along about
the time they buried h i m, about twenty- seven years
ago , they wasn' t puttin' them s t ones down. It 1s
pr ett y b ard t o find. You just can ' t har dly find
him now . They warn' t putting ' em ar ound the church
c. Pettway:
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16
like they doin' now. They putting them little
head boards over them so you can tell about who
it was, when they died and all that stuff; when
they born, when they die. They wasn' t doin'
that then. Just buryin' 'em and leavin' lem, and
after a-while, you wouldn't know where it was.
That's the way all of 'em buried. They don't know
where them people at. All you know, you carried
'em to the grave and put ' em down and that's
just it.
And be was one hundred and twenty?
That's right.
Well, you don't remember him, though, do you?
Well, I do, too. Much as I stayed there. He
stayed right here. He stayed here 'til they got
through building up this place, 'cause he bad one
of those same houses. He'd .leave out the house
Roger's in, up there, right now, and they moved
to Mobile. That 's where he died at, in Mobile.
About when?
i believe he died somewhere in '50 something.
Well , you were a grown man?
I was old grown when he died. I knowed him good .
I stayed round him.
Did he keep his mind all right?
He kept some. That other granddaddy , that William
on Mama's side, he lived to get nigety something.
He was right at a hundred. He was ninety some­thing.
That was Israel, and Herman's and Clint O.'s
daddy. Old man Ottoway . You know that old
O-t-t-o-w-a-y. He right up in one hundred. He
was ninety something years old. Them folks
lived a long time back in then. They outliving
these men here today.
Us was here in the hard times, I'm tellin' you.
Us had many hard days. Time s was hard along then.
And one way the peoples were more •••• well, they'd
get along with one another better than they do
now. You know why? 'Cause didn't nobody have
any money along them, and you didn't have no more
than me and I didn't have no more than you, and
you'd give it all up and help me.
(End Side 2, Tape 1)