Asking the OP to understand that the time her DH and MIL have together is precious is asking her to respect them. How is it possible to respect people who are blatantly not respecting you, your feelings, your house, or verbalized wishes? This sounds to me as though the OP is constantly being left out of the relationship with her DH and MIL.

I do not think wanted to have some human adult contact with her DH and MIL is being self centered. I also do not think that you are completely left to accept any behavior from someone because they offered to help you (IE MIL coming to help during a hard time for OP).

I agree with this totally! I have been in the same situation. My husband and his family speak Arabic - I only know enough words to figure out more-or-less whether they are talking about me or not. When you are talking about a visit for a few weeks, it is one thing - but her MIL is going to be here for the whole summer, and it sounds as though she is left out of the majority of conversations from the time her husband gets home from work until bedtime. How do you maintain a healthy relationship with your spouse if you don't converse at all basically for months on end?

Can you all work out a compromise? Can you set up "English only" times - like maybe during dinner, so you can all have a meal together? And then you can leave them be for the rest of the evening, or something, so they can talk Tamil.

Also, I hope you are taking advantage of grandma as a babysitter so you get some alone time with your husband. This is something we are very bad about doing when MIL comes for her (long ) visits, but can really help you feel less disconnected.

How well does your MIL know english? What does your husband say when you ask him to speak english privately?

I totally get how irritating it is when other's speak a language you do not know. My MIL will frequently whisper to my DH when I'm in the room (in the middle of a long list of complaints, so I don't make a big deal out of it). I know from your posts that you have made a incredible effort to honor your husbands culture of origin-- so no digs on you for that.

I definitely would not bring it up to your MIL, but I might bring it up to DH again.

What about this compromise (this is what happens in our households sometimes)-- When the 3 of you are in a conversation together, DH speaks in English, but his mom can speak whatever she likes. When the 2 of them are alone together or in a different room, just leave it. It's much easier to understand than to speak, and it's also easy to pick up on half a conversation. With a little help from DH, the conversation can be enjoyable for everyone.

I think you've been very nice about all of this. I know that I would not. I can tollerate a lot of things, but being excluded like that- by DH and MIL...in my own home??? nope, I don't think I could handle that. I think I would make a scene and point out that your Kids are also loosing out on hearing conversations between them as well. I clearly remember conversations between my dad and granny- and it brings back fond memories for me to remember the way they interacted with one another.

Look, you are being very flexable and kind. They need to show some respect to YOU as well! Yes, she's helping you out- that doesn't mean that you don't get to be talked to the whole time she's here! And you and DH need to maintain YOUR relationship while she or other family members are visiting! It needs to becaome a priority for DH and MIL to speak english.

I can SO identify! DH's parents stayed with us for a few weeks last year (I first met them last year), and yeah, I didn't understand much of what was being discussed in my house during that time. I especially loved it when I'd become aware that I was the topic of conversation, look up from whatever I was doing, and all three would be looking at me and grinning, without any offers to translate. Gee, thanks. This also happens whenever we visit DH's sister's house here in the states. I feel very out of place at the parties they throw with all their friends. Oh, and movie nights with DVDs that lack subtitles are my favorite.

I felt very awkward at first when I didn't know his family well, but since getting to know them, my chosen method of coping with these situations is to just not care. I tend to be very laid-back about things, and I simply choose not to be offended by it. I know they love me and don't mean to exclude me, but this is their time to speak in their own language, something they don't get to do all that often in this country. I sit there and listen, trying to pick up what I can through language immersion and the English words scattered throughout their conversations. We're all sometimes surprised at how well I'm able to follow what's being said.

I honestly think in DH's case, since he was raised speaking both languages, when he really gets going he doesn't even realize what language is coming out. The first time I met his sister, DH was telling this apparently hilarious story that had them all howling with laughter. Later on, when we were alone, I asked him to tell the story again, and used some of the hand motions he had used while telling it to remind him. He seemed very confused by my request and said, "But I already told that story!" He had no idea he used his language the entire time!

I'm sure when we visit my family, even though he understands our spoken English very well, we still use sayings or little inside jokes that make no sense to him. I think when you're around people who truly speak your language, idiosyncrasies and all, it's hard to speak anything else.

I say this as gently as possible - it's not all about you. Your MIL loves her son just like you love your children. It's completely understandable that she wants to engage him in their mother tongue. If they wanted to include you in their conversations they would. Let them enjoy each other just as I am sure you'll want to enjoy your grown children one day sans their spouses.

I certainly hope that the OP will equally love her children's spouse enough not to consistently exclude her from casual conversation at a constant when she is capable of speaking the spouse's language.

Quote:

Originally Posted by enigo

Anyway it occured to me at one point that speaking in another language when all parties do not speak it is the exact same thing as two people whispering in each other's ear in front of a third person.

I have to say that this topic really burns my bottom because I had similar issues with my ILs. They were ABSOLUTELY 100% capable of speaking English and they DID speak it regularly. Inside the home, they ONLY spoke Italian. The "kids" (people of my generation) didn't all SPEAK Italian, but they at minimum understood Italian and the elders at least understood enough English that they could carry on conversations with the "kids" that were Italian on one side and English on the other. But hey--at least I understood half the conversation.

When there were guests in the house, they spoke English (except the grandparents). But I wasn't a guest: I was a relative.

The thing that got me was when they did it in my own home speaking about problems with my own house as they helped us renovate!!

It wasn't that they weren't capable. They were TOTALLY capable. They just had absolutely no desire to engage me and involve me in their conversations or share their stories with ME. The grandmother--who seriously can barely make an English sentence--was the only one who would occasionally stop to make the effort to speak English to me. She LIKED me. She WANTED to share with me. She WANTED to hand down advice or stories or just whatever to me. She wanted to draw me into the family.

So I have a hard time reading this. OP--I remember the days when you were first pg and your travels to India, etc. (we met on another board and you're the reason I'm here at MDC ). I completely understand that you value and respect their time together and their appreciation for what you've done to be part of the family. I "get" feeling like you don't mind all the time they spend together although I have to say that I'm not sure I could deal with it as long as you have to the extent that you have. I just think that given all of that, it's not unreasonable to expect them to speak English in front of you; or to feel that they don't really care to share with you when they only speak Tamil despite your requests. To me, that just doesn't add up. And if it were me, I would just outright tell them that it's hurtful to think that they wouldn't share their conversations with you--regardless of where you are (but especially in your own house). Of course, I'd likely be biting my tongue like you are about it and then suddenly snap.

Well, I snapped finally. Oops. That was yesterday, and my MIL (who, like I said, is a genuinely nice lady) immediately apologized and took all the blame. She even said it was her fault for getting my dh started speaking in Tamil since he normally spoke English in the home. I felt bad for snapping after her apology, but at the same time I hope they finally take my feelings seriously.

So today they have spoken only English when I'm in the room, and when I leave or when dh is in his mom's room they speak Tamil and that's totally fine with me. I hope it lasts . . . I kinda doubt it but at least I have a few days' relief.

As far as my MIL speaking English-- because of British presence in India for so long, most people speak English very well there if they are educated at all. English is one of the two official languages of India, the other being Hindi. My MIL attended English speaking schools from an early age and is very fluent in English. She reads mostly English magazines and books (she likes Nora Roberts! LOL). So really there's no excuse for not speaking English in front of me.

Now if I could get a bit more quality time with dh . . . I think I may steal him for a couple of dates. We went to dinner already and that was nice.

The only one in the whole family who does not speak English is their 80 something year old grandmother. And she made an effort to learn little phrases just for me and the kids, which I thought was really sweet.

Heather nice to see you again!! Half of us are gluten free and half of us are dairy/soy/nut free. Crazy huh? Oh, and we are also meat-free.

7yo: "Mom,I know which man is on a quarter and which on is on a nickel. They both have ponytails, but one man has a collar and the other man is naked. The naked man was our first president."

Is it horrible that I'm glad you snapped? Only because it got everyone on the same page and it's better now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by USAmma

Heather nice to see you again!! Half of us are gluten free and half of us are dairy/soy/nut free. Crazy huh? Oh, and we are also meat-free.

HAHAAAAAAAAAAAA!!! Well, after your youngest's (is it Nitara?) dietary issues I am so NOT surprised! I'm so glad she's better; and that you are all healthy... and now happy. Hugs, hugs and more hugs to all of you.

As far as my MIL speaking English-- because of British presence in India for so long, most people speak English very well there if they are educated at all. English is one of the two official languages of India, the other being Hindi. My MIL attended English speaking schools from an early age and is very fluent in English. She reads mostly English magazines and books (she likes Nora Roberts! LOL). So really there's no excuse for not speaking English in front of me.

If I could speak for myself and it could be the same for your MIL, I am very fluent in English as well. I learned English the same time I learned Tagalog and save for a couple of subjects, our medium of instruction in school is in English. I don't believe I've ever read any other book in Tagalog except for 3 books in high school which was required reading (and even then, I had great difficulty with it because of certain terminology used). In fact, in terms of vocabulary and grammar, I am quite confident that I speak/write English better than my native language.

However, it is not a matter of the ability to speak it but rather the dynamic between two people having a conversation. Switching languages drastically changes the dynamic between me and the person I am talking to. It really just isn't about the language itself but rather what it represents between the two people communicating and relating to each other. At least that's how I perceive it.

If I could speak for myself and it could be the same for your MIL, I am very fluent in English as well. I learned English the same time I learned Tagalog and save for a couple of subjects, our medium of instruction in school is in English. I don't believe I've ever read any other book in Tagalog except for 3 books in high school which was required reading (and even then, I had great difficulty with it because of certain terminology used). In fact, in terms of vocabulary and grammar, I am quite confident that I speak/write English better than my native language.

However, it is not a matter of the ability to speak it but rather the dynamic between two people having a conversation. Switching languages drastically changes the dynamic between me and the person I am talking to. It really just isn't about the language itself but rather what it represents between the two people communicating and relating to each other. At least that's how I perceive it.

I can see your point. I'm sure that Tamil is a much more casual and intimate language for them and English is more formal. It would make sense to speak it with family and close friends. As long as everyone in the room could be included.

7yo: "Mom,I know which man is on a quarter and which on is on a nickel. They both have ponytails, but one man has a collar and the other man is naked. The naked man was our first president."

I have a weird multicultural situation where I speak one language, DH speaks a different language, and the language we have in common is English. We are both immigrants to the US and met here. And we now have children and two sets of grandparents who visit us from abroad and bring their languages with them.

We both put up with the other language being spoken in front of us without complaint because we know next time the roles will be reversed. For me it feels artificial and a bit distant to speak to my parents in English--even though I have been in the US for so long that I feel much more comfortable with English and end up sprinkling English in anyway. When MIL/FIL are here, I tune out a lot and frequently escape to a different room or just do my own thing. DH does the same when my parents are here, but I think he has it worse because we use enough English that we forget what we said in English and what we said in the other language and assume that he knows everything we talked about--but frequently all he would catch is something like blah-blah-blah [name of restaurant] blah blah blah. And then we wonder why he's not ready to leave for dinner in 5 minutes as "we" discussed.

Anyway--having been on both sides I just wanted to validate what everyone has said on both sides in this thread, it's all true. Have no answer, except feel free to be "rude" and tune them out and do your own thing. I'm glad MIL apologized and maybe she'll be more conscious about it from now on.

To the OP, I am happy you were able to talk to you MIL about it and that she took it well!
It is a good thing that I speak some Arabic. It is not perfect but I can usually follow pretty well. If dh's family tells as joke and I miss the punch line I immediately ask them to translate.
As I said before I learned my husband’s language on my own.Never rely on spouses to teach you a foreign language!

Is there any way to coax your husband to start speaking Tamil to your children now? Could your MIL side with you for that? It's never too late! My akka's eldest son (9) learned an incredible amount of Spanish (making phrases and whatnot) in a month just from hearing me speak it to DS. Kids are like sponges.

In our case DH found it natural to talk to DS in Tamil only, and the in-laws as well, and while I only understand toddler-level Tamil, sometimes that's more of a blessing than a problem . We do have relatives that assume they should speak English to DS but the fact that he doesn't really understand much English yet (I speak only Spanish to him) gets them to shift quickly. And they seem to find it amusing when I keep asking for the "real Tamil" word for things they're used to naming in English, like "clock" or "purple".

okay, first off, let me start by saying I totally, totally, totally get where you are coming from and how you are feeling OP, as my ILs do the same, being all perfectly competent in English but using Japanese together, wherever, in their homes, in ours, even when SIL was living with us, and it drove me crazy, seemed so rude, felt like an intentional insult, ALL of it. It really, really sucks to be in your position.
BUT
I think that what I didn`T get at first, and what a lot of people posting here don`t really see, is that it is really hard to change the language you use to communicate with your family, as much as it may seem like it to someone outside, it is not a conscious choice - you do not constantly say to yourself, "I will speak Japanese now," but rather what comes out is what comes out, on its own and determined, I swear, by a different, altogether more secretive part of the brain. In my case, the part of my brain that is trying to sabatoge my attempts to speak to dd in English.

it goies far far beyond one language being more intimate and one being more formal, and making a choice beyond that. I think that grumpy bear put it well, saying that it is about "what it represent between the two people communicating and relating to each other." And this, I think, may be something it is hard to understand if you do not have two languages in which you live your life, and with which you communicate with the most important peope in your life.

I don`t know if after three pages of comments it is worth saying, but I just think that it is important for the OP to understand that she is aking for something that is much more difficult than it seems on the face of it. While you feel that there is no excuse for this rude behavior, it is really not a deliberate insult and it is something that really is hard for your MIL and DH to change. You might be best off trying to appreciate that they are making the effort rather than getting frustrated when they slip back into Tamil (which, I should think, inevitably they will, without really realizing it).
my 2 cents, fwiw

We've had this issue in my family, too. My parents are accustomed to speaking Taiwanese to each other, and while they speak English just fine, it's natural and automatic to speak to each other as well as to me, in Taiwanese.

My sister in law had a major issue with this, and I can understand where she is coming from. However, for her, it was more of a problem that also had an underlying issue, which was that she didn't feel like she had their approval. She felt they were intentionally leaving her out, which wasn't the case at all. They would obviously speak English to her, and to my brother when she was around, but if they were just speaking to each other in another conversation, or saying something to my brother that didn't really concern her, they would revert back to Taiwanese. Yes, they speak English well, but not as well as their mother tongue, and they feel much more comfortable speaking in their mother tongue. I started reminding them because I knew she had a problem with it, and I think now they are conscious of it and don't do it anymore.

They are also trying to teach my kids Taiwanese, so when the whole family is together, it's awkward because my brother's kids don't understand it, but my kids sort of do.

My DH, OTOH, has no problem with my parents speaking any language they like in front of him, but he's just that way.

I totally identify with the OP and while it may not be intentional, it does make a person feel left out and frustrated. I hope that after the incident, things get better!

There have been so many thoughtful insights here! I do think it's difficult to rewire your brain and try to manipulate what is frequently an automatic response, similar to a reflex. But in a loving family, I can see people making the effort to make everyone more comfortable. And with the kids involved as well, it seems like they really need to make a committment on the language decision (to teach or not to teach) and follow through with their actions.

That said, I think it's also a little odd to ask that people use English because you're in the room. That's like asking them to assume you'll be eavesdropping! At the dinner table, in the car, in group settings when you're all doing things TOGETHER, yes I think that's a perfectly reasonable request. But just because they are in the room with you, doing something totally different, discussing something that in no way, shape, or form involves you? I think they might view that as a little self-centered and silly.

And, FWIW, my bilingual daughter is learning my husband's first language from ME. In fact, he has actually taught her some things WRONG! Yes, it definitely helps to have a native speaker help teach a language, but it's not necessary if you're really, really stubborn like me.

I've been on both sides of this issue. It SUCKS to not be included in a conversation ... but it also SUCKS to consciously think of what language you're speaking. I grew up in the US, but my first language is Russian, and that's what I speak with my mom. However, I speak English with my older brother, don't ask me why...it's just what feels more comfortable to me. We've lived here for 30 years, so it's not like my mom doesn't speak English...but it's just what I'm used to speaking with her. Sometimes my mom will speak English to me because she was just speaking to someone else in English and hasn't "switched over", and I find it so weird and uncomfortable to have a long discussion with her in English.
With my brother and SIL, they'll speak Russian to me, and I'll answer them in English mostly...I don't think we even think about what language we're speaking in. As far as teaching the kids the native tongue...it's not that easy! I had ALL the intentions of speaking strictly Russian to ds, but I just find it hard to do. He was a late talker, and when he finally said a few words in English, it was hard to talk to him in Russian and confuse him. Now my Mom mostly speaks Russian to him, but she'll mix in English words because he understands those. It's not from lack of desire to teach the children, as much as it's really more difficult than you'd think when you're actually trying to communicate something. My dh has also been trying to learn Russian (for 10 years before he met me) and can read it...but every time we try to speak Russian, we have only very short conversations...it's too frustrating for both of us. So, don't think your dh doesn't want you to learn Tamil; it's just hard to listen to someone else struggle in a language. I have in the past been on the other side of the coin when I dated someone who spoke a language different from any that I speak, and it is frustrating to not understand...so I get where you're coming from too. I would probably make more of an effort to learn Tamil with or without your dh's help. Good bonding time with your MIL if you ask her to spend 1/2 hour each day teaching you...just find some books to go over.

For us Americans, speaking a foreign language in front of others who don't understand is rude but that's not necessarily the case with other cultures.

I remember visiting China with a friend and her family is an amusing linguistic mix. The mom grew up in Shanghai but most of them live down in Canton (Guangzhou) so they were switching between those two dialects, standard Chinese (Mandarin) and English once in a while. I noticed that they spoke whatever in front of those who didn't speak it. For example, the boyfriend didn't understand Shanghainese but they would leap into a conversation regardless. Since I'm from S.F. and lived in Hong Kong at the time, I could distinguish (as opposed to understand) which was which. Whomever would strike up a conversation with me in English when the rest had switched. They'd once in awhile have a conversation with me in English with me and I noticed that it didn't seem to bother anyone else.

My French dh is bilingual. He speaks the German dialect spoken here and grew up speaking either to various family members. While he is more comfortable in French, often we visit or go out with people who are more comfortable in the dialect, especially since dh works in agriculture. Once, they were all babbling away and suddenly, one of them turned to me and said "Oh I forgot you don't speak Alsatian!" Amusing since I'm from America!

Once in California, I remember a Polish girl who had invited us to her house had her mom over visiting. She would hurry her mom into the kitchen to discuss anything. The mom's English was limited but the very idea that they would utter one word of Polish in front of us was not to even be debated. It was almost over-polite. Cultural standards...

While it's annoying to be left out, don't take it too personally. It's just a matter of standards and codes of politeness between cultures. If two Americans did that to me in another language, I'd find it super-rude but here, I almost expect it...

Sounds to be like better communication within the family would solve the problem. I would also highly encourage you to learn Tamil and also your child. I'm a bit puzzled why your hubby doesn't want your child to speak another language?

My MIL comes for looooong visits, 1-3 months, and we get along great. Extremely helpful and fantastic with the kids. She speak only Spanish and communication within the family would not be possible unless my kids and I spoke Spanish.

We live in Sweden so the language is naturally Swedish but we are raising our kids tri-lingually (English, Swedish, Spanish) and the kids now speak all three languages at age 4 and 6.5. Very easy to accomplish and a nice thing for the kids to know a few languages.

Like Eclipsepearl mention culture can also be very different. What's considered rude in one country is normal in another country. Trust me, we have many of these issues in my family:-)

I know the OPs MIL is gone already, but i felt the need to add a perspective to the mix. My father is trilingual, with English as his 4th language. He came to the US as a teenager. When I was a teenager, he married a Central American woman who had been in the US for decades w 2 grown US-born kids (just to indicate that she was fluent in English). Conversations suddenly became private 24/7. Even mealtimes were conducted in Spanish, which I don't speak. It was very isolating. I told my father this repeatedly - everyone at the table spoke English, why couldn't we converse in English at the dinner table? He made no effort. And when her family members started living there, it just got worse (all spoke at least some English). Eventually I was completely isolated, and it has effected my relationship with my parents to this day.

To deliberately and knowingly isolate your spouse by refusing to include her in common conversation at all is rude, period. The OP never asked to be included at all times, but to be excluded at all times is beyond rude, and can do some serious damage to relationships. Not just between spouses, but also w the children.

that was the worst part of india for me. Maybe it is a cultural thing, b/c when i was there my dh would have hour long conversations with family and not once say anything to me about what they were talking about or anything. It made my brain ache literally and i told him a couple times about it but he just never got it. Just like he never got the idea of teaching me or ds hindi. Some of my il's could speak english but were all too shy to talk to me except for the 7 year old and my fil but it was awkward to not be in the conversations for a whole month. Now when we go back to india or if il's visit here ds is much older and he will be out of the loop too, so at least i'll have him to talk to...Just wanted to say i know how you feel..

semi crunchy single student super mama to DS 7 and DD 3. Falling in with single super dad to DD5 and DD2

I was always taught it is very rude to speak in a language that everyone does not understand (when there is a shared language that everyone DOES understand).

So was I but that's exactly what I was trying to explain.

In some cultures, it's NOT rude to speak another language or leave someone out of the conversation. In America, it's much easier because English is widely spoken and we don't have a situation where dialects and other languages are used within the same family or community very often.

The issue is leaving people out of the conversation. In America, it's impolite but in other cultures, it's not. This doesn't just deal with language.

Here in France, I'll be standing next to two moms in front of the school, waiting for our kids, and if they're in conversation, they wont include me. They wont even say hi until they're done. Then they would turn to me and happily include me in the next conversation...

Once, when I was working with a French crew, we had an American girl join us. She wasn't working in my area but then came to me in tears. Apparently, the French girls totally ignored her and talked among themselves. She was afraid she had insulted them or had done something wrong. She just couldn't figure out why they were so rude to her.

I went back to talk to my French coworkers (whom I knew quite well) and explained. They were agast. They told me "But we were talking about really boring things like what's going on with our children's school. She wouldn't have been interested at all in our conversation." They went on to explain that they knew each other from training. So in essence, not including the American girl was justified because;

-The nature of the conversation was personal
-The conversation itself had no interest to others
-Leaving the American coworker in peace was better than boring her with their own personal talk
-They knew each other really well so that justified talking together

I know it's cultural but I still find it rude, as I do many, many things here in France.

I always speak English to my kids but I try not to do it rudely. Though I was naughty the other day. A baby was crying and the mother kept shoving a pacifier in his mouth and wiggling the stroller in a doctor's office. How I hate that! My dd said "Oh look at the cute baby Mommy!" and I replied "Yes, and here in France, we can't PICK UP our child. When they cry, we just plug them with a pacifier and shake the stroller"...

i feel like the only thing you can do to feel 'normal,' is to learn tamil yourself. i realize there may not be many resources to learn it, but learning any language takes consistency, patience, and YEARS upon YEARS to learn.

i understand how you feel about your husband not wanting to help you. DH speaks four languages fluently he picked up mostly by ear, so when i ask a question about a grammar point he gets annoyed and says i should learn myself like he did (not everyone is a language genius, though! pssh!). yet, he would get frustrated if i did not understand something i had never heard before. you can never win! haha!

took a lot of tears, humiliation, and a lot of guts, but i eventually know his language in an at least functional/practical way. took me years but i knew it wasn't impossible!

i know speaking the sounds may be hard, but that is mostly because your brain isn't used to the frequency/pitch of the sounds/pronunciations. also, your tongue muscles may not be so used to the positioning to produce those sounds. but, like every other muscle in your body, your tongue muscles will feel more natural after much practice and repetition.