Peter Orlovsky: The Howard Johnson's..when we were going along the highway, we stopped at the Howard Johnson's. And they had (have) these little cards, you know – What’s your waitresses number? Did you like the way she served you? What did she serve you? Was it enough? Was it too small? Was it too large? Do you have any comments about Howard Johnson's? (the inside – how it look?)

So we filled out our cards in each Howard Johnson's we stopped

GC: But the frightening thing was “What is your waitresses number?”

And that scared us, you know

AG: So we kept answering that by saying“This is a Gestapo question”

GC:It is you now

AG: It’s a real mean question

GC: Terrible question

AG: Incredible question -

GC:What is your waitresses number?

AG: Spying on the waitress

GC: As if we would do that, squeal or something.

AG Like stool-pigeon questions

And they encourage you know, middle-class American families to come out and be stool-pigeons on theit waitresses.

GC: Yeah, nobody should be…

AG: So we filled it out. We filled it out.We participated in the world. We were the only ones that were participating in this particular project . Nobody else filled it...

GC: Wefilled out the cards. Thousands of cards, we filled out, thousands of comments!

ST: I see, but you won’t participate in something you consider immoral. Is that the idea? - basically

AG: Well, no, I won’t participate in something that I don’tlike participating in. And I certainly don’t like participating in turning in the waitresses or something.. like that.. Would you?ST: No, that sounds fair enough

AG: Would anyone? That’s inhuman.

ST: It's inhuman

AG: What we did do is filled out cards criticizing their art because they had lousy art all over the walls..

ST: Yeah, yeah…

AG: Disgusting. Sort of big sexy English shepherdesses done in a style that never existed on land or sea but an imitation style..

ST: Lets forego Howard Johnsons for a moment if we may. There’s something that William Carlos Williams, a distinguished.. Iknow "distinguished” is a square term to use..

AG: He’s a great poet

ST: He’s a great poet

GC: No, “distinguished” is a great word

ST: You like the word?GC: Yes, I think it's lovely. Yes he is distinguishedAG: We're all distinguished, in fact.ST: We are.GC: Even you.ST: Even I..GC: Well, they're talking about the grey hair..ST: Oh, outwardly..AG: Just to see how profoundly nervous you areST: I see, that's it. GC: You are nervous, aren't you?ST: Nervous?AG: ProfoundlyST: But I must admit…GC: Do you love us. See, we automatically give you our love. We feel it right away ST: I don’t know you well enough.

GC: You just can’t get into us.

AG: Well, he’s putting up with us.

GC: He’s putting up….

ST: I’m curious. Let’s put it that way – and curiosity is a sign of flattery, of interest…

William Carlos Wllliams, if I may for a moment..

AG: He's talking about Williams

ST: ..wrote a preface to Allen Ginsberg’s poem Howland he said this – “It is a howl of defeat, not defeat at all because he’s gone through defeat as if it were an ordinary experience, a trivial experience. Everyone in this life is defeated but a man if he be a man is not defeated” – Now, what does this mean to you, Allen?

GC: It sounds like...

AG: Well it sounds to me like.. well, he’s a very old man, you know

ST: He’s paying you a tribute here

AG: Yeah, I know. But he’s a very old man. So he’s looking at it from the point of view of a man actually whose feet are washed, and (who) is about ready to go, looking back on life. I had written a long poem which is full of a lot of complaints (among other things!) – among other things, a poem full of complaints.

ST: It's filled with complaints, but wait, coming back to William Carlos Williams. He wrote this as an undefeated man. He says, he says that you are not defeated is what he says.

AG: Well, he’s saying, like, everybody in life, is defeated, really. Everybody is defeated, in this sense. I mean, we all die. So, in that sense, if you want.. Until you get to a point where death is, like for (Walt) Whitman, a beautiful experience or, you know, a great gate, that you pass through, until you get to a point where you can accept death, everyone is..

ST: But don’t you feel that life, don’t you feel that life itself is a memorable experience. You speak of death.

AG: Well, I don’t think I’ll remember it after I’m dead.

ST: I know but you are alive now.

AG: Yeah

[Allen Ginsberg, 1959 - Photograph by Chester Kessler]

ST: See, I was hoping, perhaps you aren’t, the three of you, very alive young poets, are you not? – Well, a lot of people would agree or disagree with you

AG:Well,once and for all, the corny journalistic conception of the Beat Generation being (quote) “negative” (unquote), or putting down life, I think, is ridiculous. It simply reflects the shallowness of people who comment on our poetry and the lack of perception. Like, the end of my poem there’s a great big thing all about how "the eternal war is here", hurrah for mercy, and everything. Angelic bombs dropping all over the place, it’s a big cry of “Hooray!