Originally posted by Yrkoon9 This is going to be a semi-long post illustrating why *I THINK* GJJ is different and inferior to BJJ.

Okay, we all know that Rorion is a money-grubbing loser who bamboozle the rest of his family out of the market with his trademark. So what we have is Helio/Rorion & Royce teaching GJJ - the trademarked and authentic one of a kind 'REAL' brazilian jiu jitsu. As we all remember from the carefull marketing on Rorions part Helio 'created' GJJ and was undefeated blah blah blah. Well, we know that is bullshit. One of his own students beat him, and Carlson was forced to come after and whoop the guy. We also know that Kimura beat Helio. We also know that Helio didn't 'create' anything. He watched his brothers and trained JJ, modifying some of the techniques. He didn't create a damn thing. So at this point GJJ is on shaky ground. It was being sold and marketed in a deceptive manner.

BJJ on the other hand is the generic term that everyone is forced to use who is not authorized to teach the official 'GJJ'. You have a whole other lineage like Carlson who teaches basically the same stuff. It gets a little murky as the Gracie family descends and people train with different teachers.

But what exactly is the difference? I'll tell you the difference. GJJ IS INFERIOR TO BJJ. WHAT?!?!?!

Yes, thats right. INFERIOR! You want to know why? Because Helio/Rorion hide the art to people outside the family. Yes. Its the same old bullshit bullshido that happens in other arts. They teach the most basic **** and keep knowledge from their students. Now Im sure that 'someone' is going to come up and 'defend' the GJJ clan. Let me shut you down right from the start.

1) The torrence academy was notorious for hiding their stuff. My proof of this was the exodus of some of their students. For example, Marc Laimon and Ethan Milius bailed on them and went to the Beverly Hills Jiu Jitsu Club to train. They were living testimonials to the BS that was going on. They said it themselves, they were actually being held back. Milius was banging Rorions daughters. Yes, plural. And was a multi-stripe purple back in the mid 90's. He and Marc both got sick of the games Rorion would play at Torrence. Over the years I have met many like them. They didn't know what they were missing until they went elsewhere.

2) At BHJJC we had many students from GJJ Torrence who would come to train with us. Multi-stripe blues were STILL trying to pass the guard with one arm in and one arm out. Like fucking newbies they would get triangled over and over and over with no clue. HELLO YOU ARE BEING TAUGHT **** THAT SUCKS. Marc and Ethan both laughed at this sort of thing. Their 'technique' was so basic and lame that white belts were tapping out Torrence vets. It was people like Marc and Ethan who broke out of that archaic grappling to evolve into something greater. They experimented with the De La Riva guard, which was conveniently absent at Torrence. They explored leg locks which had previously been taboo. etc etc.

3) There are many many many instances where Rorion would chide his family for 'showing too much', for example when Renzo/Kukuk came out with their video series in the late 90's Rorion tripped out and said they were showing too much. Can you believe that ****? Showing too much? You can look at Rorions own tape series and see what lame crap they were trying to sell. The same dopey moves done in several variations. No depth or substance - and yes, even the one arm in and one arm out guard pass.

4) GJJ's success was built on Royce's success in the UFC. It was rhetorically repeated over and over that GJJ is the source and everything else was crap. You had to learn from them or you weren't learning the 'real' stuff. In the mean time, the 'other' stuff had begun to infiltrate the US and the GJJ myth was beginning to be dismantled. Carlson's guys were handling everyone. Royce even lost to Wallid. Suddenly the myth was shattered. It was possible that there was a better method of teaching, or other teachers who could be better?!?! The US became flooded with QUALITY teachers and their students began to dominate. Look at the Machado's for example.

5) The proof is in the pudding. As BJJ competitions began to flourish you saw the emergence of a new breed of fighter. Cross trained. Specialized. All kinds. But in the BJJ tournaments, the GJJ guys found themselves out of their element. They were losing badly. Teachers who were not afraid to show more started to develop quality competitors who schooled the GJJ boys. Even today, you find that they get owned when they try to compete. You won't see many GJJ reps at the podium. So you know what they did? They shrivelled up, and started their 'own' competitions. Open to THEIR students. Does that sound a lot like some other McDojo's of the past? They even began to change the rules because, *GASP*, people were beating them at their own game.

6) BJJ encourages cross training while GJJ are trying to remain purists. Only recently have they begun to break this mold and are far behind the BJJ guys who recognized the importance of crosstraining. Another good comparison would be Carlson's guys who began boxing to improve their vale tudo game. Nowadays the GJJ fighters are playing catch up. They tried to remain purists too long. Sound like McDojo closed mindedness to me. Case in point Genki v Royler. Pure GJJ v crosstrained BJJ type. There really isn't much of a comparison.

Even in the 'pure' GJJ grappling style they have not evolved. Other BJJ people are continuing to develop and evolve the art. They recognize the importance of adding wrestling and sambo and judo. For example - again I will mention Wallid v Royce. Modern day BJJ meets traditional GJJ. GJJ loses.

So what exactly am I saying? I am saying that GJJ and BJJ are not the same. The terms are not interchangeable. I am also saying that GJJ is inferior to BJJ. I recognize that this might provoke some knee jerk reactionaries that may feel challenged. I would liken this to many McDojo practictioners responses when confronted with reality. They become angry and refuse to accept what many have already realized. Now this is *MY* opinion, and like any opinion it is biased. It is probably not 100% accurate in every word and detail. But by and large I think the information I have provided should convince people that the reality is BJJ has evolved, and GJJ is trying to cling to its glory days as it basked in the public's ignorance. I urge you, if you disagree, to go see for yourself. Compare and try to make an objective decision on the subject. I think you will find that what I have said is true. BJJ > GJJ.

Sadly, I agree with alot of the points. I've even had this conversation with Omega after losing in my first competition.

I like to think I have the basics down, till I roll with someone with the same amout of time on the mats as me, that can leg lock the **** out of me.

I am in no way putting down the training I received. An arm bar is an arm bar, just the different ways of postion and transition. After speaking to others in different schools once I came back to Canada, did I see that alot more was taught in the same amount of time. Which can be argued both ways, pro and con, which I decline to do at this time.

Originally Posted by Sifu Rudy Abel

"Just what makes a pure grappler think he can survive with an experienced striker. Especially if that striker isn't following any particular rule set and is well aware of what the grapplers strategies are".

Originally posted by JohnnyS It seems to me to be ridiculous to say Kosen Judo puts BJJ to shame without any proof, except for what you've seen in books.

While Anthony is partially correct about me stirring up **** ( he is getting to know me TOO well), what I said is that Kosen Judo has more advanced GI related ground work than GJJ, based on what I have seen in books and dvd's.
As for proof, what kind of proof would you consider suffcient to show that one system has a more "complete" curriculum than another system?

The point made about the Gracies "holding on" to certain elements and being almost (gasp) traditionlists in their approuch to teaching their system, is well said.
While cross training in different systems has become essential in competitive Martial arts, GJJ has, to an extent, resisted this claiming you don't need anything other than GJJ, and in some ways they are correct.
But as competitions bring in ALL types and ALL flavours, the more athletes are exposed to, the better they will get, at the very least, theye will be able to deal with techniques that are not as common in their OWN system.
Now this does NOT mean that GJJ, or any other system, needs to change dramatically, or even ADD these "new" techniques to the repetoire, although it would make sense to do so, but it does mean that, they need to recognise that there are other systems that have something of value.

And I do think that, GJJ has understood that and is "evolving" with the changes.
It will adapt.
It will improvise
It will overcome