Dive, dive, wherever you may be ...

There's an English terrace chant classic, sung to the tune of Lord of the Dance, that starts something like this: "Dive , dive, wherever you may be. You roll around feigning injury ...". Nobody likes a cheat, particularly from the opposition, however there are certain situations when I would openly encourage diving.

Don't get me wrong, I hate diving just as much as the next person. Seeing a player clutch their face after copping a gust of wind directly on their foot makes me angry.

However, I've been in situations where a defender has attempted to tackle me once I've already played the ball past him. If I am able to stay on my feet, but my progress has been hampered enough that I lose possession or lose any advantage I otherwise would have had, I believe I am well within my rights to dive.

Too often a referee will not make a decision, either way, if the attacker is able to stay on his or her feet. If an attacker is hampered by a defender who completely misses the ball then I believe the attacker can, no MUST, fall to the ground in order to force the referee to act.

Alright ... alright ... I realise there is a significant grey area. There has been much debate after the following incident:

I believe the third and final replay in the above youtube footage proves that Grosso was NOT impeded by Lucas Neill and thus, according to my own standards, had no right to dive in an attempt to win a penalty.

Had Neill slid across in front of the path in which the ball was headed, I would accept that he had impeded Grosso and that the Italian had every right to bring this to the attention of the referee. But this was not the case, so Fabio Grosso wins the award for best dive at the 2006 World Cup. Congratulations!

An award-winning performance

Nike produced t-shirts in the wake of Grosso's dive against the Socceroos at the 2006 World Cup

Many of you will remember the winner of Best Dive at the 2006 World Cup, Rivaldo, with a display that is unlikely to be matched ever again.

One of the worst cases of 'faking it' in living memory. Rivaldo cons the referee during the 2002 World Cup.

Sharks player Paul Gallen "lays down" after copping an elbow to the head

When Paul Gallen belatedly hit the deck after a late, cheap shot, elbow to the head he was soundly criticised by many for "diving" or "laying down". Apparently certain meatheads believe Rugby League players should "stay on their feet", take it like a man and "get revenge in the next tackle". Ridiculous, is it not?

The Paul Gallen "dive" is not an isolated incident. The referee awarded a controversial penalty against Luke Bailey for pushing Queensland prop Steve Price over during the second game of the State of Origin series. Soon after the match, NSW captain Danny Buderus said "I don't know if you take a dive or something like that but there wasn't that much momentum that he fell like that." Buderus was probably right in this case, but League players are obviously encouraged to seek penalties and it is now part of the game to dive.

The fact is that in every Rugby League match, the closer it gets to the fifth tackle, you see players flopping around on the ground in an attempt to secure a penalty for their team. And that's just the tip of the iceberg as far as play-acting goes. Both sides are guilty of cheating in the ruck area, the referees (quite rightly) choose to allow much of it to go unpunished. If every infringement in the ruck during a Rugby League match was punished the games would be decided on penalties.

So, in a sense, cheating is encouraged. Players will get away with whatever the referees allow, and who can blame them?

Players of all sports, no matter how "tough", use their acting skills to attempt to gain some advantage on the sporting field, but where exactly is the line between what is acceptable and what is not?

LATEST COMMENTS

Ben Willing: I debated about this for several hours amongst the members of the Flog team. Most notably, Domino Postiglione, of Italian heritage (obviously), vehemently disagrees about my stance on diving and believes that you should never dive to get a penalty, no matter how badly you might be impeded. He believes the referee should make the call whether or not the player goes to ground. I agree with that, but the reality is that referees just don't make the call, almost always allowing play to continue as if nothing happened.

Domino also believes the Grosso penalty was valid and that Lucas Neill slid into his path.

As I said in the Flog, "It's a grey area"

Posted by: Ben Willing on June 14, 2007 5:16 PM

Ben, couldn't help but notice this related video about the Grosso incident - a different perspective.

Ben Willing: Good footage. I'm not disputing contact. I'm saying Grosso played the ball in one direction and then ran in a different direction so as to fall over Neill and claim a penalty.

Posted by: Vicentin on June 14, 2007 5:27 PM

Yes, it's a fine line, but I agree that it's there.

We need only think back to Emmo copping a kick in the head against Uruguay - he was enraged, had a go at the offender and was duly yellow carded (gave the ref no choice).

That was plain dumb and a classic case of lacking in "street smarts". If you're kicked in the head, and using some of Ben's logic above, you are certainly entitled to drop to the ground, above all, to make sure the ref notices. In truth, it may have been an accident, but it was most certainly careless and negligent (and painful!), so drop to the ground, let the ref work it out there and then.

Re people who dive at a gust of wind - could have included Voeller and Klinsman from the 1990 WC final - people will recall that back then, these two would literally do triple somersaults and then roll a further ten metres for good measure - it was so over the top it was absolutely laughable! I recall that that final, (plus the draw the following final, but that was a different issue), really put me off the game for a long time. Post-match reviews should definitely be used to pick up these instances.

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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 14, 2007 5:28 PM

I agree with Dom except on the Grosso penalty, I'm pretty sure my neighbours all remember how much of a dive i thought that was.

Posted by: djebella on June 14, 2007 5:30 PM

Niel should have never slid in like that!!!

Posted by: cheech on June 14, 2007 5:31 PM

I'm sure that Domino is the salt of the Earth, but I find his position a little confusing. Firstly he believes you should never dive to get a penalty, no matter how badly you might be impeded. But surely it depends on that very act of impedance - if it's bad enough, it will most definitely be a penalty.

But then he says that the Grosso penalty was valid because Lucas Neill slid into his path. But I would have thought that Grosso exaggerated the hindrance (in the exact way he says one shouldn't): 1. He could have chased the ball in the direction he had hit it, afterall, Lucas Neill went to ground 4 metres in front of Grosso and then lay prostrate; 2. Grosso could have jumped over the prostrate body that lay there because it was there well and truly before he arrived on the scene; 3. Grosso appears to intentionally catch Neill and then catapult himself over Neill, afterwhich he went into the foetal position as if he had been struck down by lightning.

There is absolutely no question that Gross exaggerated the incident for the benefit of the ref, but in one sense, we can be accepting of that because the body was lying there in front of him - who would have resisted that with 10 seconds to go?! Italy deserved a penalty because of our lack of street smarts!! (i.e. there should never have been a body lying on the ground in that exact spot at that exact moment!)

In a post-match review situation - Grosso would probably be fine because there is no denying the existence of contact. The post-match reviews would be aimed at searching out instances where there is no contact - if you think about it, that's the only thing that makes sense, because that is clear-cut.

It becomes a bit like the present controversy in the AFL about hands in the back. Many don't like it, many argue that the hands should be allowed if it doesn't interfere with the opposition player. But then you are left with the umpy trying to determine something that is impossible for him to determine. On the other hand, if you see hands on the back - pay it as a free kick.

Similarly, the post-match review committee could only make determinations on whether someone has dived where there was zero contact. If there has been contact, it is no place for anyone to try and work out whether it was sufficient to force someone to ground or not (unless it is an outlandish dive along the lines of Klinsmann). Note that I am only talking about taking action against divers post-match, and not about awarding the free kick itself.

I hope some of that made at least some sense!

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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 14, 2007 5:48 PM

It's funny how those of Italian extraction appear to be more forgiving of Grosso - hmmm...

Of course, one cannot put me in the same category, afterall, I'm of Sicilian extraction.

_______
pippinu
Ju sugnu sicilianu!!

Posted by: pippinu on June 14, 2007 5:50 PM

Posted by: Vicentin on June 14, 2007 5:27 PM

Are you serious?

If Neil was standing up and Grosso ran into him like that would it have been a penalty - NO.

Yes it looks bad but why should it be any different if he was laying down.

I believe Grosso ran into him - it doesnt matter whether there was contact.

Posted by: Syd Knee on June 14, 2007 6:04 PM

pippinu on June 14, 2007 5:48 PM

Pippu, did you check the link I posted? Now I'm not saying that it is overwhelming proof that Grosso didn't dive, but if, as the guy who put it together claims, Neill's hand was impeding Grosso (trailing) foot .... and all the other bits, maybe he didn't exaggerate it by that much afterall.

Just as an aside I love Gerrard's dive against the Andorrans (Andorrans???), mainly because I love the way the Andorran defenders (occupations - taxi drivers, ski lift operators etc) bag him out. And so they should. Klinsmann's dive? F@#k that was funny ... but he got away with it didn't he?

Can we open this up to all forms of cheating - obviously we're focusing on diving at the moment but as I posted on the last flog it is a very cultural thing. What other things piss people off - systematic fouling of danger players, time wasting, pushing in the box. Diving ain't the only thing wrong with modern football.

Ben Willing: Please do open it up to all forms of cheating. I would have mentioned Messi's hand of God, except that I'd mentioned it in a Flog only yesterday. Another grey area which I have strong views on is Goalkeepers and crosses/corners/free kicks, where the keeper almost always draws a foul for not much, and then you have keepers taken out by an opposition player, yet the referee allows play to go on ...

Posted by: Vicentin on June 14, 2007 6:19 PM

Syd Knee on June 14, 2007 6:04 PM & Ben.

As an "Italo-Australian" I've always been torn on this one but ultimately I've watched so much football over the years that even my initial reaction was "why the f*$# did Neill offer it to him? And - I can't blame Grosso for taking it. Grosso exaggerated it - he's not the first, and as I've stated elsewhere even our "true-blue spirit of the Anzacs boys" have done it too. We should get over it - but Ben you had to bring it up again didn't you ;0)

In most previous World Cups I've had to solely support Italy due to Australia's abscence and I've been through my fair share of heartbreak and yes cheating against us - we're no saints but hey. Referee Byron Moreno in the game against Hiddink's South Korea in '02 anyone? - that was an outrage. Unfortunately because most of the Anglo-Saxon world has this idea that Italians are only divers and cheats (and forget they consistently produce brilliant footballers, teams and managers) there was little sympathy on previous occasions when the Italian team was dudded.

Ciao - I've got dinner to make, kids to feed etc

Posted by: Vicentin on June 14, 2007 6:34 PM

Ben Willing: I added a question at the end of the Flog: "Who is the worst diver in football today?"

My answer to the question is a tie between Didier Drogba and Arjen Robben.

If you doubt my answer, watch a replay of the 2006 World Cup match between Holland and Ivory Coast.

Posted by: Ben Willing on June 14, 2007 6:35 PM

Posted by: Ben Willing on June 14, 2007 6:35 PM

Arjen Robben is by far the worst, I think Drogba has tried to limit it this past season, still pulled a few though. Up there high on the list though (as a Gooner it pains me to say it) is Robin van Persie.

Back to main topic, sportsmen (and women) are trained to take whatever advantage they can. After all the emotion has died down, I would have been quite happy if Dukes or Aloisi had 'exaggerated' contact at the other end and pulled a penalty.

It's a hard call but it will continue until it's stamped out by the authorities, and that is not likely to happen anytime soon.

Posted by: Brickowski on June 14, 2007 6:52 PM

One of my ultimate pet hates are players who flash their imaginary cards at the referee in the hope he pulls out the red or yellow card and gives it to the opponent. I think there is a simple solution to this. If you do the imaginary card thing at the referee the referee gives you the card/caution! it would stop it straight away!

Posted by: Chris J on June 14, 2007 7:00 PM

# Posted by: Brickowski on June 13, 2007 6:19 PM

yeah saw that footage a while ago... there was contact. but grosso was already at 45degrees to the ground when the touch was made.

Posted by: Eddie on June 14, 2007 7:20 PM

Posted by: Brickowski on June 13, 2007 6:19 PM

???? Wasn't me, my posted footage was the Aus v Eng game 2003.

Posted by: Brickowski on June 14, 2007 7:36 PM

To the lovely ppl of the flog.... yes even john

here is an interesting article where the fans can own and run a football club in the uk

Hmm... strange that the first two incidents were by teams that went on to win the World Cup.

Re the Neill incident, I have a great respect for most of Lucas Neill's work, but it was a stupid, stupid tackle attempt, and it ultimately put us out of the World Cup.

Neill basically slid in the wrong way and got completely sold (in more ways than one).

It's hard to judge a player's balance and momentum from a replay, but I think this was a clear case of (at the very least) obstruction. You simply can't sprawl in a player's path like a keeper in that situation, where he is otherwise in on goal.

On the other hand, Grosso may or may not have deliberately made contact. I know many a player who will stick out a leg and try to make contact when advantage is gone to draw the foul.

Rivaldo's dive is hilariously memorable, and never warranted a red card for the guilty party. Rivaldo's reaction obviously made it seem far more violent than it was, although the linesman is only two feet away and surely had a close view of it.

On the other hand, the player clearly smashed the ball at him, which is "unsportsmanlike behaviour", usually punished by a yellow. Hell, if I was Rivaldo I would want his disrespect punished, too.

Ultimately, there are two wildly different perspectives to this (and every other) football issue, that of the footballers actually involved in the game, and that of most of us, as spectators.

Sure, I feel the bile rise in my throat at a Van Persie dive on TV, after all we all expect to see heroes as well as villians in our entertainment.

Down at the local indoor soccer league, though, I'll grin and keep quiet when the ref misses an opposition goal that smashed in and rebounded out too fast to notice, and all our keeper says is; "If it went in it would still be in back of the net wouldn't it."

And all that's at stake in that comp is a block of plywood with a plastic man perched on it!

Win at all costs - it's the way of the future (er... and the past)

Posted by: Slippery Jim on June 14, 2007 7:59 PM

Ben W:
Yes, that was a definite dive no doubt about it and Grosso should have been red carded!

It is history now and the Italians will now have our Amanda Vanstone as punishment for his indiscretion.

I think Grosso will be cursed to the day he dies when Amanda starts her tender as our ambassador at our Embassy in Italy.

Grosso may even seek asylum in Australia. I only hope he does not try to gain entry to Australia via Pakistan/Indonesia on a leaky vessel; nor try to throw his children over board to gain sympathy from us; as I for one shall turn my back on his plight; there will be no sympathy from me...

Jimbo,
anymore information coming out of FIFA for the rematch at the G? And how are the alterations going?

I am particularly interested in the Murray-Darling Water Feature's progress?

KB
__________________________
"D" stands for Definite Dive

Posted by: Koala Bear on June 14, 2007 9:01 PM

Yeah, Ben, it is a really grey area, but there doesn't seem to be any sign of action being taken to prevent it, so people are just going to keep on doing it, much as I hate to say it.

Re worst diver today, have to say Robben. Would have put Drogba up there too, but he at least has tried to improve it over the last season, wheras Robben just keeps on doing it. I also remember Rivaldo at 2002 world cup and what a joke I thought he was at the time.

Anyway, on other matters, the 2007-08 EPL draw was released tonight, and United open their defence at Old Trafford against Reading. On the whole, it doesn't look too bad a draw - tricky away fixtures in rounds 2 and 3 against Pompey and then City, but, on a brighter note, we do get the away leg of the derby, and trips to Emirates and Anfield, out of the way by the end of this year.

One gripe, though, our last day is away at Wigan!! What happens if the title race goes right to the last day, ala 99 or La Liga this season, and we win it? Presentation at JJB? Not ideal...Perhaps we'll just have to try, if we are in the position to do this, to wrap up the title before then, so we can have the presentation at the theatre of dreams!

Which reminds me of a whole catalogue of pet hates:
1. crowding round the ref and manhandling after he makes a decision a team does not like - how this is allowed to happen over and over is beyond me
2. patting the ref on the back or clapping after he sends someone off - Podolski did this a couple of times during the WC and it irritated me no end
3. linked to what Ben raised above, with all the holding on that occurs in dead ball situations, and yet the free kick always, always, goes the way of the defenders - huh? are you paying attention ref? do you understand who is actually doing all the holding on?
4. bad offside calls - over, and over, over
5. standing over the ball for a touch too long when a free kick is awarded
6. the wall creeping up
7. the player who throws in creeping up a few metres
8. feigning injury to waste time (a whole subject area in its own right)
9. taking the ball to the corner flag, where the team trying to waste time inevitably wins a free kick - grrrr!
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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 14, 2007 10:52 PM

Sports Tonight have just gone to the break promising big news on Mark Viduka......

.....And here it is, Viduka was about to quit the NT before the Asian Cup, but then changed his mind. He will retire after the Asian Cup anyway.

Storm in a teacup really, sorry for gwtting you excited.

Ben Willing: FFA announced to the media today that they had a major announcement to make tomorrow morning (6am teleconference, followed by 11am press conference in Sydney), yet later that afternoon they cancelled without explanation. Apparently this was the Viduka saga.

Posted by: Brickowski on June 14, 2007 11:01 PM

A few weeks ago I admitted to not living in Holbrook and not being a private eye (hardly earth shattering revelations). I also said at the time that I had one more confession to make. The time, my dear friends, to make it has now arrived.

I choose this time, because it is closely linked to the Grosso exaggerated fall, and the fact that Ben Cubby was going to orginally write something on this subject.

My confession goes back to the world cup, and I think Ben Cubby was moderating, but I'm not sure. After 10 days or so of little sleep, I was on the point of delirium with 30 seconds to go in our game against Italy. In my mind's eye, I could see the future: another half hour against a 10 man Italy where we would surely at least make it to penalties! then to meet either Ukraine or Switzerland for a one-way ticket to the semi - it was all too good to be true!

That's right, it was. Within the next 15 seconds or so, it all went terribly wrong!! I nearly destroyed the living room, I couldn't believe it! The lack of sleep took its toll, as soon as Totti got the goal, I quickly logged onto the world cup blog and wrote a one sentence along these lines: God I hate this game!

Then I crashed.

It took me 3 or 4 days to get back to some degree of normalcy after this. In the meantime, in the crazed state that I was, I invented an alter ego to go onto the blog. He was an Afrikaaner who played rugby and hated soccer, and I wrote whatever idiotic thing that came into my head.

Funny thing is that:
1. I know nothing about rugby!
2. I unwittingly started displaying more about the world game than your normal redneck should know, in particular, about the scandal in Italy.
3. Worse still, and I don't know how I could have been so stupid, I started using a few Italian words - not exactly in character!

Anyway, a regular blogger, I can't remember who it was, but it could well have been one of our very own floggers, wrote one day: "At first I thought you were just another redneck, until I noticed the Italian and the fact that you seemed to know a bit about the game. Ok, I see that you're still upset, fair enough." Or words to that effect. In other words, someone had worked out that it was me, and that I had gone off the deep end - although no one else appeared to pick up on this.

Soon after this, I returned to some normalcy, got back into watching the remainder of the WC, and came to appreciate how good Italy truly was and how it clearly deserved to win the WC. I then dedicated many posts to the fact that Italy represents the yardstick for a team like Australia - they were where we needed to be right across the pitch. It's stating the obvious, but at the time, it took a very brave person to say it!!

There, I feel much better now. If you were the flogger who expressed those words of wisdom, and who was able to work out what was going on in my head - well done and thanks!

Isn't it great that the Asian Cup is in our time zone!!

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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 14, 2007 11:09 PM

YOU DON'T LIVE IN HOLBROOK????

I don't know if I can trust another word you say. Do you at least live in NSW?

I certainly hope so as it is your one saving grace, the one thing that keeps me from completely slagging you off everytime you go off on one of your delusional rants.

ps: I remember you from the World Cup blogs, I was actively posting under another name as well.

Posted by: Brickowski on June 14, 2007 11:43 PM

Dive or no dive, if moments earlier, Bresch had brought down Grosso properly outside the box, or if Grosso had fallen over Bresch instead of Neil, then there wouldn't have been any last kick of the game penalty winner.

KB,
the FFA were going to make an announcement about the World Cup replay tomorrow ( the Viduka thing was just a red herring ) , but I'll break the story here and its not good news.

Apparently the Italians love Amanda and have taken her to their hearts. She's bigger than Sophia.
The IFF aren't interested in a re-match any more.
They love her big backside and deep heaving breasts.
They love her “colourful” clothing.
They love her moustache and hairy armpits.
They love the way she stares a man in the eyes before she grabs his testicles.

Worse still (what could be worse I hear you say) . . . she's been deceived, fooled far more than the unsuspecting World Cup referee Cantalejo, she's fallen for Fabio's Grosso . . .
the hairy chest, the moustache, the gold chains and garlic stained teeth, smitten, head over heels, the two are inseparable.
"World Cup, what World Cup replay . . . " Amanda mumbles as he takes her into his Latin arms and makes her Anglo-Saxon blood boil.
What chance have we fair minded football tragics of getting a World Cup replay now?

And Bracks won't sign up to any Murray-Darling scheme so the renovations at the G with the water feature have been put on hold.
We now have to wait till they're incorporated into the new stadium for Melbourne Victory. The bloody Victorites have taken over the country.

What a hollow sound that rushing waterfall will now make, only to constantly remind us of the injustice of modern football and the selfish need to deceive to succeed.

While we're on confessions, anyone want to own up to being Jennifer?

Posted by: jimbo on June 15, 2007 12:41 AM

Grosso moved with grace and finesse. Such was the majesty of his display, even Our Lucas could not keep his feet. Cheating has never looked so good. Bravo.

However, being a rugby man, not even the spell-like subtlety of an Italian master can alter the loathsome nature of the dive. The act has no place in any code of football. It is disgraceful and despicable conduct.

THus, it is a dark day for the NRL when those participating in its competition cross the line - from brutal warriors to blokes who dive. League was tolerated because it was fair dinkum. Not sophisticated but passionate. Parochial. Salt of the Earth. And what does it offer as of last Monday? The prospect of some over-paid cheat to whom loyalty is a mystery taking a dive. A grub so low and bereft of self-respect that feigning the extent of an injury is not beneath him. Blokes of that ilk always belonged in soccer or AFL until this week.

That was until one Adam Dykes. May history treat you as you deserve - cheat. You should be blacklisted from ever representing another club again. May your gutless and pathetic behaviour serve to ensure endless beltings by defenders for as long as it takes for you to stop playing the game or apologise.

You have brought the game into disrepute and will hopefully be remembered for being the bloke who took a dive during games. Just like being known as a chucker in cricket.

Some people will just simply not do certain things. Apparently nothing is beneath you. You're a cheat. Wear your victory smile with pride.

Posted by: Stompa on June 15, 2007 1:01 AM

sometimes to get a free kick you have to go to ground just so the ref blows sometimes. also, theres nothing wrong in playing for a free kick. i mean, if someone is abviously diving in or leaves their foot out whats wrong with trailing your own leg and making the contact look bad. its poor defending in the first place to go to ground or jump into a tackle. smart players will take advantage of it, its what grosso did. if lucas doesnt go to ground theres no chance grosso can do what he did. im sure he would be kicking himself that he slid in instead of staying on his feet. the bugger was always going to to it, he was smart.
diving when theres no contact or its an honest challenge and the ball is won is wrong though.
your fair game in my book if you go for the ball by sticking out a stray leg and miss. very grey area though

Posted by: rob on June 15, 2007 1:08 AM

i agree with dom....never, ever. unfortunately, it seems to have taken a hold in football, but when gallen went down the other night i was mortified. league is not a beautiful game, nor should it be. if rugby is the game they play in heaven, then league's the game they play in hell. it is fast, brutal, violent and lots of fun. so if a league player goes down, my suggestion is he sent off for twenty minutes while a medico ascertains whether [the player] has sustained a major injury. remember when tallis was tearing around the paddock with barely a bit of dental floss holding his neck together. insanity! no diving in league. and hey, if anyone can get fifa to rein in divers in their comp, go for it.

Posted by: chooch on June 15, 2007 1:26 AM

Just have a look at two players fronting for Chelsea these days, Arjen Robben and Didier Drogba, and you have two strong contenders. The way they approach such situations is appalling and has largely contributed to the situation where Chelsea are now considered the new Man Utd, ie everyone can't stand them except those on the bandwagon. I realise Ronaldo has never been an angel in this area but he has made large improvements since the World Cup. And of course, the Italian World Cup team should be singled out for their appalling record too!

Everytime the ball comes near him he falls over and pathetically looks at the umpire bleating for a free. For a big man he is a big sook.

Posted by: RC on June 15, 2007 6:55 AM

Diving is perhaps the largest reason why I can't/won't follow/watch football. It spoils the game to such an extent that it makes a complete mockery of it.

Soccer sux because of diving. Period.

Posted by: MickH on June 15, 2007 7:38 AM

Daniel Alves of FC Sevilla. The little urchin drops, squirms and wriggles every time someone get near. Makes me hate the game I love.

Posted by: Pike on June 15, 2007 7:53 AM

Daniel Alves of FC Sevilla. The little urchin drops, squirms and wriggles every time someone gets near. Makes me hate the game I love.

Posted by: Pike on June 15, 2007 7:54 AM

Vincentin
In the last World Cup no one came close to the Portugess in diving.

If there was a World Cup in diving the Portugess would have beaten Italy(and every other team) hands down.

I love Football , but the way they carried on in Germany , even I couldnt defend our game.

Cheating is human nature and not the sole rights of the Italians.

In relation to the Grosso penatly. Yes Grosso milked it. But Neil should not have commited himself.

Posted by: AL BUNDY on June 15, 2007 8:26 AM

Ben,

I couldn't disagree with you more.

How can you say that a player should dive in order to appeal for a penalty if his progress is impeded? The result of impeding a player's progress is an indirect free kick: not a direct free kick that would result from the dive (penalty if inside the box).

Players must allow the referee to make the decision on what has occured and not what the player thinks he deserves. Don't we teach kids to accept the referee's decision whether it's right or wrong?

As an aside, I believe all cases of diving should be reviewed by a committee after professional games and those found guilty given suspensions to eliminate this "ungentlemenly conduct" from the game.

Posted by: Terry on June 15, 2007 8:33 AM

I know this isn't the right sport but James Hird who plays for Essendon in the AFL!

Posted by: Caroline on June 15, 2007 8:44 AM

I agree with you BW and i will go one futher by saying grosso's dive was ok. Neill was impeding him and he was too tired (at 90mins) to jump over Neill to get to the ball.

Its happened to me once during a game. the defender slid in front of me and i would have stepped on him if i didnt dive

Posted by: Trev on June 15, 2007 8:44 AM

Steven Price in State of Origin 2. So to all that think it is a soccer thing look again ??

Posted by: Paul on June 15, 2007 9:00 AM

Jimbo,

No more talk of Manstone's heaving breasts, you left me heaving over my morning coffee.

Hasn't KB already outed Redb as Jennifer? If not, he must have been doing a Dr. Cox impression and calling Redb the first female name that popped into his mind.

Posted by: Brickowski on June 15, 2007 9:05 AM

Trev
You should have stepped on him - and taken the dive, just to make sure he got the message!

RC
Matty Lloyd was born in Scotland and grew up playing soccer - he simply uses a skill he learned in another sport! I've said once before he would have made a great centre-forward if he had stuck with it.

Chooch - I presume you are a different person to Cheech?!

Bricks
I've given such accurate descriptions of where I lived in Queanbeyan and Cooma that you can rest assured I have spent all of the last 22 years in Southern NSW (including some time in the ACT).

What about you fessing up to who you were in the WC blog? Do you remember my Afrikaaner alter ego? (he only lasted a few days - as I said, I was suffering from sleep deprivation and being generally pissed off!).

By the way, just to be clear, I've never had an alter ego on the FLOG.

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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 15, 2007 9:07 AM

Posted by: Straight 10's In Olympic Diving! on June 15, 2007 6:37 AM

If you think the Italians were the worst culprits of diving in the world cup (with only one major instance of so called diving I can think of), you obviously didn't watch any games involving Portugal or the Netherlands. The Italian team now has an unfair label as divers over one incident in one game, whereas worldwide other countries have a much more worst reputation for diving (particularly Portugal and most South American nations). End of the day I just think the teams of Anglo Saxon nature are too honourable and cannot stand the thought of "cheating" or "bending the rules", yet I find it quite hilarious when a player of Gerrard's stature needs to dive against those powerhouses Andorra, and Joe Cole spends more time rolling around on the floor then a gymnast, yet nothing is ever said in the bias English/Anglo Saxon driven media in this country and abroad.

Posted by: BPR on June 15, 2007 9:10 AM

Surely the most valid point about Grosso was that if you watch his front foot, he clearly chooses not to put it to ground as he dives. Even if there is contact with his trailing leg, there is no reason his front foot should have failed to find firm ground.

It's a tough call re a penalty though, as Neill was culpable, and made it easy for him to embellish. I still think it was a dive though, and that a penalty would have been fair only if he'd tried to keep his feet but had lost the ball as a result of contact.

Posted by: Dan on June 15, 2007 9:28 AM

I haven't put up my Big V Victory formation for a while, so here it is:

This formation is marked by a fair bit of disorganisation down back, a preference for left-sided attacks, leaving the inside right channel open for Corica to exploit (as SFC's only viable goal scorer).

The other team that will finish in the 4 is the new team - who will obviously try and resurrect the archaic and anachronistic W formation - but I will leave it for other wags to play around with that one!
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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 15, 2007 9:42 AM

Wow - a lot of Chelsea and Arsenal players there. You don't get too many English players diving as we (the English) hate that sort of nonsense.

This is a really interesting topic Ben, good work. Incidentally, has anyone listened to this week's Guardian podcast? There is discussion about what kinds of cheating are tacitly permitted in different countries.

The worst diving I think I've ever seen was the Portugal-Netherlands game at last year's world cup; particularly the efforts of Deco, Robben and Ronaldo.

I think though, that when you talk about diving, you need to separate a couple of issues.

The first, the one where there is a grey area, is making the most of a foul contact. I'm of the opinion that, when a player is genuinely fouled, and it impedes his ability to continue with the ball, then he is entitled to make it apparent to the referee. Obviously, there is haziness here as it can be difficult to tell the difference between foul and fair contact. That's why the Grosso incident is in dispute - 'did Neill go for the ball?' 'did Grosso dive?' etc? I also, for the record, don't think there's necessarily an issue with 'drawing' a foul from defenders - because it is still up the defender whether he commits the foul or not.

The second is the one that is unequivocally cheating. That is when there is no contact at all and the player still falls in a heap. There are numerous exponents of this 'art' and I won't list them, but there's no excuse for this. Certainly not 'he runs so fast that any change in direction to avoid a tackle causes him to fall over'.

I think the worst part of this is the rolling around and feigning injury to try and get the player booked. If you're not hurt, get up. This is the stuff that really brings our game into disrepute.

RElated to this, and a particular bugbear of mine is players who pretend to be injured after they've lost the ball so that the other team kicks the ball out. I have two issues with this:

1. if the 'injured' player is behind the ball as play moves up field and is not nursing an apparent head injury, play on. In particular, I'm referencing the Spurs - Arsenal game last year when two Arsenal players ran into each other in the centre circle, didn't jump straight back to their feet (because the ball had gone past) and the team expected that Tottenham would politely give them back the ball. If the injured guy is the keeper, or is in the box with play going on around him, that's an issue for the ref to sort out, but otherwise keep playing - it's too easy an issue to exploit by unscrupulous players.

2. I really don't understand the idea where if a player is hurt, and his own team kick the ball out, that the ball is returned to them. Fair enough, if one of the players in my team is injured, and the other team kick the ball out, they've done us a favour and i'll return them the ball. If though one of their guys goes down and they kick the ball out, then I think the other team are within their rights to keep the ball.

BTW - I know I have used 'he' throughout this message, and that women play football too, but I couldn't be arsed typing 'he or she' or using the clumsy 'they' as a personal pronoun.

Posted by: Marty on June 15, 2007 9:55 AM

Bricks,
KB tried to out Redb as the Jennifer, but he vigorously denied it
(while putting away the fishnets and wiping the mascara from his eyes . . . )

Posted by: jimbo on June 15, 2007 10:01 AM

Posted by: pippinu on June 15, 2007 9:42 AM

W - pfft. Rounding out the top four will be the CCM with their CCM formation:

------------Vukovic
Heffernan
------------Vidmar

------------Wilkinson
Clarke
------------Hutchinson

Jedinak-----OWeNS-----Gumprecht
Mrdja---------------------Petrovski

Posted by: djebella on June 15, 2007 10:06 AM

To Pippu : Emmo copping:

Emmo was never smart in my opinion.

You can see from they way he run, straight, never weaving.

He is just a plain old simple footballer, with non of the cunning- south american or the crafty european.

I think thats the same to most player's in Aussie team, and that why I like them.

But I wouldn't mind diving occasionally in the larger tournament,

Posted by: zinny999 on June 15, 2007 10:14 AM

Matthew Lloyd. THE biggest diver of ALL time.

Posted by: Gonzo on June 15, 2007 10:23 AM

Just with Viduka deciding to finish international duties after the Asian Cup I'm disappointed in that he still has a few good years left and WC10 finals or campaign would have been a better send off for him also we need in that holding role as we don't have anyone equal I wonder if Arnold's suggestion that Kewell would play a more attacking role was because there was a chance Viduka was going to quit before Asian Cup. I bet Newcastle pressured him too.

Posted by: fcstan on June 15, 2007 10:37 AM

What about the NO CONTACT in the WC final where France won a penalty where Materazzi didnt even touch i think was Malouda???

Problem is, when you watched it in real time it looks like a clear penalty. Replay in different angles shows no contact at all.

Same goes with Grosso. In Real time its a penalty. In replay and slow motion its a grey area because of the contact made.
I had friends at the game saying all the Aussie supporters where thinking what the hell did Neill just do.

Problem with replays is they play them too slow where viewers think the player should miracuosly ignore the laws of physics and stop within 0.0001 seconds whilst running.

As anyone with half a brain knows that football requires good balance, when running or turing with a ball it takes little contact to be put off balance especially when someone is hacking at your ankles.

Best divers are Thierry Henry and Christian Ronaldo. The latter has improved as someone has mentioned but has anyone seen that clip where he jumped over someones foot, and as he rolled you can see him looking at the ref??? Funny as.

Rivaldo 02 takes the cake though!

Posted by: reality check on June 15, 2007 10:39 AM

Posted by: MickH on June 15, 2007 7:38 AM

MickH makes a very good point here & I love this game. But this is the worst aspect of our game. The Diving. This is what I get from my non football friends on why they dislike the game, the blatent diving.

Posted by: Robbos on June 15, 2007 10:41 AM

Great post Marty - agree with pretty much everything you wrote.

I really wish this whole injury business could be sorted out once and for all, because if it isn't, I can only see it getting worse as yet another tactic to slow the game, stop the opposition's momentum, etc.

I know the ground is much bigger and there is no off-side rule, but in AFL play always continues. It's up to the injured team's coaching staff to quickly check out the player and decide there and then whether he should come off. The umpy will only stop play if someone is seriously injured - and that's the way it should be (in other words, it is a rarity that the umpy stops play for an injury).

The big difference that allows the AFL to do this (and it works extremely well) is that runners and trainers can run on and off the ground any time they want (which can't happen in soccer) and players can be interchanged if they're just suffering form something temporary, like getting winded.

These are the sorts of things that the World game should be looking at. Whereas at the moment there appears to be a presumption that the game must always stop, but as Marty has pointed out, this presumption has no sound basis and it is something that is easily exploited.

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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 15, 2007 10:50 AM

Worst diver without a doubt Cristiano ronaldo!!

Posted by: Filippo Inzaghi on June 15, 2007 10:50 AM

pippinu on June 15, 2007 9:07 AM

Pipps, my only alter ego has been, and I stick by it, AFL=SQUASHED CAT

This was exactly what I was thinking. I hate blatent diving & this is unequivocally cheating.

While it took me awhile on the Grosso incident, this does fall into the 1st catergory.
As Vicentin mentioned if the Dukes or Alosi did this at the other end, I for one would've been screaming penalty. It's just such a shame it had to happen at that time & it was such a grey area.

AH well, we took the eventual world champions to the 90th minute & they had to get a dubious penalty to get past us. I think this is what us Aussies should be rejoicing.

As for unequivocally cheating, like diving & feinting injuries, stamp it out NOW.

Posted by: Robbos on June 15, 2007 10:55 AM

Here's a suggestion to limit diving:

If a player goes down and requires/feigns a need for treatment like most divers do - then the Ref orders that player to leave the field for a minimum amount of time - say 3 minutes minimum - to receive legitimate treatment or to just sit in the "naughty corner" after feigning things with time to think about doing it again. Any ardent diver will then become a liability to the other 10 players. I'd imagine that Robben or Drogba would find it hard to make the starting line up if they result in staying off the field for several minutes each game and becoming a liability.

Neill v Grosso :- here's a reality check - I was in a small town in Italy watching the game with many local Italians. As I was wearing my Aussie gear and had become a regular at the bar that week, even the Italians were making diving hand-gestures to me after the Grosso incident!! The Italians themselves - who can see a dive a mile away - knew Grosso was a clear Academy award winner. Even after the game, the local Italians, happy as they were, continued to be apologetic about the way the game resulted - again making diving gestures about Grosso. The core of the problem for mine, however, was that the Socceroos spent the first half without that winning conviction, and when Italy had 10 men, the Socceroos couldn't exloit this. Any team that can't exploit a 1o man opposition has problems. If the Socceroos played more smartly against 10 men, they could have been two up, and then who'd care about Grosso?

Continuing with this injury business, people might recall what happened towards the end of the first half when Australia played Brazil in the WC.

Poppa decided enough was enough, he couldn't continue, his legs were rat$hit, so he sat down and put his arm in the air. Now it's the actual incident I wish to dissect rather than Poppa himself (the fact that he had to come off was a tragedy for us and pretty much opened up the space for the first goal at the start of the 2nd half).

From memory, Poppa didn't come to this opinion immediately after being involved in the play. I think he waited till the ball was up the other end and then single handedly brought proceedings to a halt.

The question is: why should play stop in that instance? Shouldn't the onus be on the player and his team management to quickly sort something out while play continues? Where is the rule that says each team must have their CBs in place before play can proceed? The way these sorts of things are managed must change for the good of the game!

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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 15, 2007 11:01 AM

Ben
In relation to your comments on RL diving. I agree totally.

What angered my is that RL seem to blame Football for the diving in there game. Some of the comments after the Sharks v Dragons game and from the ARL or NRL was priceless.

All there comments related back to Football , like Football was responsable for diving in a RL match.

Comments along the lines of ".. diving like in soccer.." or "..we dont want our game to be like soccer.."

Ive got news for the muppet meat heads in RL and AFL . Diving in there games has nothing to do with Football. And everything to do with there own game.

In my opinion Totti is the worst diver in football - I don't know if people remember the previous World Cup where he took a dive against Croatia and he actually got a red card for it!!!!

Posted by: Lidija on June 15, 2007 11:05 AM

Pipps,

with the wall creaping, what ever happened to the Brazilian leagues idea of the spray paint on the ground that stays there for 30 seconds or something. When I saw it i thought that was a great idea. Anyone creeping over the the line gets a card and cant complain.

Walking the line... theres more going on in the game thana couple of metres of line walking (as opposed to line dancing in Holbrook whch should be outlawed).

Posted by: sampsonobrian on June 15, 2007 11:10 AM

Diving is a blight on the game that needs to be irradicated. The A-League has been a relatively dive free zone to date - and it is because the fans just won't allow it. I think a steady of diet of "tougher" games such as Union and League for most Australians means that a playing not giving there all will not be tolerated. It's not about getting the penalty - you mention that you are impeded and can't get to the ball blah blah blah, the number of times I see a footballer go to ground when he could have stayed on his feet and thought that if he had stayed up he could have still got to the ball or would have been in position to receive it back in open play just a few seconds later and so on.

The only way to get diving out of the game is for it to come down from upon high (FIFA) and put the onus on the referees. They are professionals and should therefore be asked to shoulder some responsibility for the direction of the game. The directive MUST be that if even the slightest doubt exists that a player has dived or even faked the severity of his injury in any way shape or form the free kick MUST go against them. At the moment benefit of the doubt goes the other way. Of course, mistakes will be made, players with broken legs will be given red cards for faking, but that is a risk I am willing to take. It will not take long for players to realise that there is no advantage in diving and once there is no advantage in it, there is no reason to do it.

FIFA and the referees need to get tough.

Posted by: Mark on June 15, 2007 11:22 AM

Samps
I remember the spray can idea. It had merit (although I had trouble envisaging refs carrying a can of spray paint around for 90 min).

But like all progressive ideas - it died a natural death. Remember the experiment with kick ins replacing throw-ins? It too died a natural death.

I have intimate knowledge of a game only played in Australia that changes rules every year - every year!! Now many might say that is over the top - and fair enough.

But we all have to understand and appreciate that the world domination aspect of football brings with it a huge downside - it is almost impossible to change anything! In particular, bringing in progressive ideas (and as we hurl ourselves into the 21st century - my view is that football is in need of some progressive ideas).

The other aspect about this is that FIFA is committed to having a game that can be played anywhere on Earth at the drop of a hat. This philosophy too has merit, but once again, we must all appreciate that it comes with a massive downside, that the game must forever be organised and officiated in a manner more befitting of the late 19th century.

This is not to be over-critical of the game itself, but it is being critical of organising bodies who have not adjusted quickly enough to the pace and professionalism (and all the antics that come with that - yes - in all sports!) of the modern game.

Ben Willing: Agreed! It's an out and out dive. He was not impeded, not even touched. Had he stayed on his feet he almost certainly would have scored (and Sydney FC would be almost certainly be playing Asian Champions League Quarter Finals).

Posted by: sampsonobrian on June 15, 2007 11:45 AM

Lidija. The game in which you speak of was against South Korea, and Totti was fouled in the box (clear penalty) yet the referee gave him a second yellow card for diving. That referee was Byron Moreno who was duly dropped from the World Cup, and banned for life from the Ecuadorian League (after he added on 14 minutes of extra time in a league match.

Posted by: BPR on June 15, 2007 11:51 AM

Pippu,

While others bloggers may of tired of your constant MV formations & your MV gloating of a super club, I saw your passion for your 'new' team. I can see why you are getting so excited, MV are stronger than last year.
However of late the old comparison to the AFL has come out again in your posts.

Posted by: Robbos on June 15, 2007 12:08 PM

Posted by: djebella on June 15, 2007 10:06 AM

ha, ha djebella - I'll pay that!

You've got your right side well and truly covered, but I hope you're not expecting Sash to backtrack and cover the left!

If so, you could be in for a long season!

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 15, 2007 12:15 PM

Here's my diving 11. Naturally, a very attacking lin-up is appropriate. As much as I love Kewell as a player, I had to include him - In my opinion he is the one Aussie who has a tendancy to dive like an Italian. Had troubel with the centre midfield positions if anyone can help out...

One for conspiracy theorists everywhere (I'm generally not one) - I was searching for Byron Moreno the notorious Ecuadorian ref from the Italy V South Kore 2002 game and came across this vid on youtube entitled Why Korea shouldn't have reached 2002 4th place - basically a compilation of dubious referee decisions from SK's games against Italy and Spain in that tournament. Ok a few Italians go down easily on occasion but there's some rather rugged stuff on there which Byron refuses to consider. Totti went down in the penalty area a bit too easy but he had a hand in his face and hey we've seen 'em given. Also note the offside that never was in the Italy game, and the linesman lifting his flag in the Spain game when the ball had NOT crossed the line and it was impossible for anyone to be offside. It is about the only time in football history that the Italians and Spanish have been united in something.

If soccer-style diving becomes a feature of rugby league I will never watch it again.

Posted by: Rob on June 12, 2007 1:12 PM

See you at SFC Rob.

Posted by: EDWARD JAY on June 14, 2007 1:09 PM

They are kidding,I also entered a blog saying that in Australia there are far more dives in RL than football.Not to mention the things like holding the tackler to make it look like he wont get off the tackled player,ignoring the 10m rule to see what the ref will let them get away with ect.ect.

Can you imagine if on one of the the biggest days of football the game was decided on a referee's mistake like in the league the other night,Nsw captain DB said also a "dive" cost them a game.
They like putting crap on other sports but can't see what goes on in their own game.

Posted by: EJ on June 15, 2007 12:42 PM

Deco....what a beautiful diver. Drops like a sack of spuds.

Posted by: DaddyC on June 15, 2007 12:44 PM

What have I missed?

Robben, Van Persie, Ronaldo and Drogba all drive me nuts.

I recall a game I played in many moons ago, a young bloke in our team took a big dive in the box and was awarded a penalty. He was subsequently abused by the 11 opposition players along with the 5 of us who were in the vicinity. Our skipper stepped up, told the keeper to stay where he was and tapped the ball to him turned to the young bloke and said "never f#$%ing do that again". Never saw him after that.

With regards to the NRL, players lying down such as Paul Gallen last week is pretty rare in the game. Hoever, players flopping around pleading with the ref and diving in the play the ball are a common occurence and a blatant form of cheating. This is the equivalent of diving in the NRL and occurs more times in a league match than it does in a football game. It amuses me that the NRL refer to football about the Gallen incident yet fail to acknowledge the other con jobs which occur a dozen times in eight games every week.

All that said, nobody does it like Klinsmann though, that is pure entertainment.

Posted by: Hutcho on June 15, 2007 12:47 PM

It's interesting that just about everyone has hasn't named a particularly good diver.

So here goes - Hulk Hogan, Vince McMahon, Rick Flair and so on.

The point is WWE or WWF or whatever it calls itself today and soccer (or football if you prefer) are entertainment. It ceases to be sport when you leave school. The problem is that the kids are copying these overpaid excuses for sportsmen (emphasis on the word sport)and unfortunatley the likes of Ben unWilling condoning WWE as a part of a sport is going to drag it lower.

Posted by: Mick on June 15, 2007 12:48 PM

Steven Price in State of Origin 2. So to all that think it is a soccer thing look again ?? Posted by: Paul on June 15, 2007 9:00 AM

Paul agreed..!! I witnessed the Rugby League SoO dive and thought the same..

Grosso's Dive:

THE INDIRECT FREE KICK: where has it gone..??..Just picking up on a post that a blogger has asked and I am sorry I can't remember who but....

Hoorah..!! You are absolutely right it should have been at worst an indirect free kick in the box.

As far as I know they are still in the rule book as they are used when a keeper receives a back pass.

Grosso was never going to get to the ball as Craig Moore was closing-in and did so before Grosso dived.

So for me it should have been play on. Or I would have accepted an indirect fee kick reluctantly, but in my view the referee erred in awarding a penalty, when it was clearly a dive with no chance of him (Grosso) getting to the ball before Craig Moore got his boot to it and cleared it from the box. (that is why he dived..!!)

KB
___________________
"I" stands for indirect free kick

Posted by: Koala Bear on June 15, 2007 12:54 PM

Why the obsession with diving? Shirt-pulling, punching and use of the arm in tackles are all equally rife and illegal.

What worries me is that so few in the game appear to understand this. How many times do you seen official match photos on club websites which clearly show a "star" engaged in one of these activities?

Posted by: Stephen on June 15, 2007 1:04 PM

Robbos
A leopard never changes his spots!
______

After reading Hutcho's little story (which brought a tear to my eye) it left me thinking: no wonder we can't get a national team together to compete on the world stage!!

Vicentin
I was thinking about this Dukes thing at lunchtime. It's all a bit worrying. Even if he is now committed to the squad, one is left wondering:
1. Is his heart truly in it?
2. If our top two or three players have trouble committing to the NT for something like the Asian Cup - we can forget here and now getting too many of them back for qualifiers!
3. longer term - you're right - our new trailblazing game plan has just gone down the gurgler before it even got started!

Maybe he read the FLOG and didn't like what we were proposing for him? He'd rather tap goals in for Newcastle than try something a bit more challenging.
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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 15, 2007 1:18 PM

Stephen on June 15, 2007 1:04 PM

It is a good point and it is one (in a sense) that is discussed on the Guardian's football blog this week (
Marty on June 15, 2007 9:55 AM - it was quoted in a post of mine yesterday - previous FLOG). Diving seems to be more of an issue in Anglo-Saxon countries where is is seen as ... I don't know, effeminate? and yet in this culture it seems fine to "assassinate centreforwards if you're a centreback" or to try and take out the goalkeeper at a corner. The Messi/Maradona hand of god gold is veiwed very differently in latin countries where the player would be complimented for his guile, his wilyness, his street smarts, his furbizia in Italian. There is definately a cultural aspect the weighting we give to different forms of cheating/gamesmanship.

as an aside, I watched about 10min of an AFL game last friday night (channel surfing) and couldn't believe how many niggly fouls there were. Most of it was really blatant, but there were a lot of cheap shots too. Do journalists go on about it or just the usual footballing double standards?

Posted by: Vicentin on June 15, 2007 1:26 PM

This ones for you Funky...

Posted by: sampsonobrian on June 15, 2007 11:00 AM

Oh, ha ha ha, yes, very clever, very funny (NOT!!!!)...

Grow Up, Samps!!
-----------------------------------

Anyway, on other matters, was a bit suprised to hear about Dukes, but glad he changed his mind and is playing on for the Asian Cup - likely to be the swan-song for quite a lot of the more senior players now, it would seem.

On other matters, it looks like Nick Carle is on his way to Fenerbahce, which is bad news for the jets, but, secretly, I bet the other teams (like us mariners) are breathing a big sigh of relief. Still nothing official, but, we'll see what happens...

By the way, does anyone know whats happening with Milton? Last I heard he'd gone back to Colombia, but will be be back for the jets in v3?

Posted by: funkymarinette on June 15, 2007 1:26 PM

Gamesmanship/medical procedures from other sports ... eye gouging? What about the amateur colonoscopies (with no anaesthetic) that were going round in Rugby League a few years ago? Rugby League, you've been given a clean bill of health.

Seriously, the rough stuff - the pinnacle of which was the Manly V Wests games from the seventies was considered all good fun even though in truth in looked more like a pub brawl, and yet they're all in huff because diving isn't macho.

I have no answers, I'm not advocating violence, or diving or cheating, but the responses to the different forms of cheating says a lot about our different cultures/societies/football codes.

This is good time to point out (again) that in football because Australia is playing in a global game we are going to come across different refereeing styles and cultural values. Emerton was stupid the other day and he'll get book again in Asia if he does it there. Australia will have to learn to be LESS committed in their tackles - but more intelligent - if they want to survive.

Posted by: Vicentin on June 15, 2007 1:39 PM

Vicentin on June 15, 2007 1:26 PM

Apologies for my spelling, grammar, missing words, formatting and possibly my arguments. I promise to try harder in future - or at least be legible.

Posted by: Vicentin on June 15, 2007 1:46 PM

Gee whiz Robbos and Samps

I'm copping it in the squashed-cat blog, and I'm copping it here as well!

But let us all take a trip down memory lane.

It's 1989 and Australia has managed to lose to NZ yet again in a qualifier, meaning that we must defeat Israel at home in the last game of the qualifiers.

Israel is presented with a gift goal some 5 minutes in - so we have 85+ minutes to score 2 goals otherwise we are history (note the use of the + sign).

From the moment that Israel take the lead, each player takes it in turn to drop to the ground at every 50/50 ball, and the game is stopped on each occasion and reduced to high farce - anyone who remembers the game will agree that they have probably never seen more stoppages in a game ever or since.

Australia actually pegged one back at around the 88th (I think it was Trimboli), and with all the stoppages, we are expecting at least another 5 minutes of play - at least! We were still in with a chance

But the Italian ref blows time at exactly 90 minutes! All over red rover.

In these sorts of instances, the team feigning injury and stopping the game is getting a massive advantage (and reducing the game to high farce). So first of all, can we at least agree that that sort of thing can be a problem?

Daddy Cool came up with a decent suggestion - that the player requiring treatment goes off automatically for 3 minutes. But I'll tell you the one problem with that suggestion - it all presupposes that the game must stop whenever someone is on the ground. And like Marty, I am questioning that basic assumption - why must the game stop just because someone is on the ground? (especially when FIFA stats show that for over 50% of cases, there is actually no injury) So armed with these stats, shouldn't our starting assumption be the opposite - that play continues until the Ref thinks it's serious enough (or the injured player is obviously in the way of play).

I repeat that in squashed-cat, the game will only stop if the Tomcat decides that injury is serious enough, it's his call alone - otherwise, play can continue on its merry way. Marty was making a similar point. Now just because it happens in squashed-cat, does it mean it's devalued as a generic idea?

By the way, I also agree with Stephen's recent post, and some of these things have been touched on. I repeat, in dead-ball situations, the defending team nearly always gets the calls for pushing and shoving - and it is simply inconceivable that the bulk of it is not occuring in the opposite direction (i.e. that for the most part, defenders are holding onto forwards).
_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 15, 2007 1:47 PM

Posted by: funkymarinette on June 15, 2007 1:26 PM

Funkster,

No disrespect intended, but your teenage-type crush on Winky Ronaldo should draw the same response, GROW UP!!

The boy has a reputation as a diver and since that is the topic at hand it's only natural for this sort of thing to come up.

Posted by: Brickowski on June 15, 2007 1:51 PM

Ben Willing: Coincidentally, all the A-League referees are attending a seminar in Sydney this weekend to review the latest updates to FIFA's Laws of the Game, review their own refereeing performances from last season and undergo mandatory fitness tests.

Posted by: Ben Willing on June 15, 2007 2:13 PM

KB, you are right about the indirect free kick for the Lucas Neill/Grosso incident, provided it was deemed by the referee to "impede the progress of an opponent", which merits an indirect free kick according to the rules of the game.

However, if a player "trips or attempts to trip an opponent", in the judgement of the referee, this constitutes a direct free kick, which is a penalty in the box. This is clearly the decision that was made at the time.

The other rule to be weighed up is that "any simulating action anywhere on the field, which is intended to deceive the referee, must be sanctioned as unsporting behaviour." ie, a yellow card offence.

As you can see, (technically at least) the indirect free is alive and well in the rules of the game.

Interpreted literally, Neill did trip Grosso, warranting a penalty kick, but in my opinion Grosso embellished it, whether this was to deceive or simply to highlight a genuine greivance is the big grey area question.

Phew!!! Maybe they should hire lawyers as refs for the big games!

Posted by: Slippery Jim on June 15, 2007 2:14 PM

Ben Willing: Michael Mols is in Perth, deciding whether to sign on as Glory's Marquee player. He arrived last night and attended (watched, but did not participate) a Glory training session today.

Posted by: Ben Willing on June 15, 2007 2:25 PM

Posted by: pippinu on June 15, 2007 1:18 PM

Robbos
A leopard never changes his spots!

Pippinu,
Mine has, my grammer was bad to start off with but it's just getting worse, my apologises. I just reread my note to you.

Vicentin,

"There is definately a cultural aspect the weighting we give to different forms of cheating/gamesmanship."

Very true Vicentin & this is the real reason why FIFA won't deal with the diving issue, the latins as such, embrace the cunning of Mardona's handball, the Grosso's penalty pulling dive, the Ronaldo's actions to get Rooney sent off.
When we deal with a world game, you have to deal with many different cultures.

But I think it's still a blight on the game we call the beautiful game. The unequivocally cheating ie Rivaldo as shown above.

BTW I hope you recovered from the 10 mins viewing of AFL.

Posted by: Robbos on June 15, 2007 2:26 PM

Agree with all who think "sportingly" putting the ball out of play should be phased out of the game. If you haven't been fouled, being injured is bad luck and no different to the bad luck that results from a bad bounce (possibly at the Loko Cove home ground). So why should play stop all of a sudden? I especially hate it as a player when I get berated by the opposition for failing to put the ball out when the injured player is behind the play! Even if they weren't injured, they are never going to be involved until the ball goes back to their own team, and if they're that concerned about the guy's health, they can put it out themselves.
Fact is the ball goes out of play probably once a minute, it woun't kill anyone to keep play going until that time.

On the subject of other codes, any sports physio can tell you that a Rugby coach will always brief the physio before the match on which player (usually the prop) will be the "go-down" guy, basically his job is to fake an injury whenever the play needs to be slowed down, and the physio has to know who it is so they can play along with it.

Posted by: Ben G on June 15, 2007 2:34 PM

Agree with all who think "sportingly" putting the ball out of play should be phased out of the game. If you haven't been fouled, being injured is bad luck and no different to the bad luck that results from a bad bounce (possibly at the Loko Cove home ground). So why should play stop all of a sudden? I especially hate it as a player when I get berated by the opposition for failing to put the ball out when the injured player is behind the play! Even if they weren't injured, they are never going to be involved until the ball goes back to their own team, and if they're that concerned about the guy's health, they can put it out themselves.
Fact is the ball goes out of play probably once a minute, it woun't kill anyone to keep play going until that time.

On the subject of other codes, any sports physio can tell you that a Rugby coach will always brief the physio before the match on which player (usually the prop) will be the "go-down" guy, basically his job is to fake an injury whenever the play needs to be slowed down, and the physio has to know who it is so they can play along with it.

Posted by: Ben G on June 15, 2007 2:34 PM

Posted by: Ben Willing on June 15, 2007 2:13 PM

Let's hope there's an A Clockwork Orange style session where they are shown all of their appalling mistakes from last season, over and over again. Especially that knob of a linesman who disallowed Petrie's goal against NZ in the second last round.

Posted by: djebella on June 15, 2007 2:35 PM

BTW I hope you recovered from the 10 mins viewing of AFL.

Posted by: Robbos on June 15, 2007 2:26 PM

To be honest I only stuck with it for that long because I drawn in by all the fouling - little rabbit punches to the kidneys, that sort of thing. Seemed very cowardly to me - cultural differences I guess.

oh, and thanks for fixing my sentence - but you left out the "to" before "the" ;0)

ps got to see a couple of "behinds" - you know, points for trying.

Posted by: Vicentin on June 15, 2007 2:39 PM

Posted by: Brickowski on June 15, 2007 1:51 PM

You'll noticed I have been ominously quiet about Drogba and Robben (and Joe Cole) being divers.

As a Chelsea supporter, I neither confirm nor deny these heinous charges...

Posted by: Slippery Jim on June 15, 2007 2:49 PM

The things NRL people talk about happens overseas but gives the local game a bad name.
I must addmit it's embaressing & hard to explain to a NRL person when a football player gets stretchered off,then stands up on the side line & wants to come straight back on,agree,give them 3 mins on the side line.

I remember seeing a report on that 30 second paint to keep a wall back the required distance,it looked like it was a sensible addition to the game,no wonder they swept it under the carpet.

"it looks like Nick Carle is on his way to Fenerbahce"
Apparently Galatasaray are now interested as well!!! Perhaps the Jets should raise their transfer fee a bit more.

"By the way, does anyone know whats happening with Milton? Last I heard he'd gone back to Colombia, but will be be back for the jets in v3?"
I've heard the Colombian season finishes just before the start of the A-League, so he might return only then if he does decide to come back.

Posted by: tintin1989 on June 15, 2007 3:03 PM

Australia will have to learn to be LESS committed in their tackles - but more intelligent - if they want to survive.
Posted by: Vicentin on June 15, 2007 1:39 PM

Yes - no doubt about it - otherwise the refs could be that banana skin we are all fearing!

Robbos & Vicentin - if everyone started doing a post everytime they made a typo - the FLOG would be swamped! Chill out and don't worry about!

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 15, 2007 3:21 PM

Phew!!! Maybe they should hire lawyers as refs for the big games!
Posted by: Slippery Jim on June 15, 2007 2:14 PM

Ha yes Slippery Jim, (you're not a lawyer by any chance are you?) this is where we differ.

I have had a look at the incident so many times now and my head still can't get around to where Lucas has impeded Grosso.

I can see Lucas spread-eagled on the grown but there is no movement or motion of him going forward to impede Grosso before he takes the dive.

So, he did not make contact with Grosso in my opinion rather Grosso moving his left peg to ensure he made contact with Lucas.

I viewed the "You Tube" piece that Vicentin has posted up with all of the rationale along with it and I still think it was a Dive.

Now if you have a close look where Craig Moore is and where the ball was heading, it shows clearly that Grosso had no chance in hell in getting to the ball before Moore, so he was never going to score the goal.

If he was never going to score the goal how can it be deemed as a penalty but rather at worst an indirect free-kick?

But in saying that, it was a difficult call either way to have to make.

KB
___________________________
"L" stands for we need a Lawyer

Posted by: Koala Bear on June 15, 2007 3:22 PM

It was a penalty. Harsh, but it was.

Funky I'm a Gooner and back in London over Christmas - Arsenal v Chelsea 15th December & Arsenal v Spurs 22nd December, great stuff. Well happy with that. Come on you Arsenal!!

Posted by: John on June 15, 2007 3:32 PM

Posted by: Slippery Jim on June 15, 2007 2:49 PM

Yes Slippery Jim, as a C Ronaldo fan I also felt compelled to keep quiet but I'm not too sensitive about others calling him a diver.
I love his brillant play, but look away when...., I don't know I'm looking away.

Posted by: Robbos on June 15, 2007 3:33 PM

ps got to see a couple of "behinds" - you know, points for trying.
Posted by: Vicentin on June 15, 2007 2:39 PM

I too hate all the pushing, jumper grabbing, elbowing, chest beating, flying the colours etc. It's basically bull$hit and has very little to do with the game, which is all about getting your hands on the ball and using it while under pressure (that is, legitimate physical pressure).

Was that Friday night game the one between Essendon and West Coast? I saw the last 5 minutes of it, which I quite enjoyed. Essendon actually won by kicking a behind late in the game!

But what I enjoyed about it most was that it was a "hot footy". No one could get clean possession, everyone who picked it up got hammered immediately, and thus it was for the final few minutes.

To non aussie rules people, I can understand that it might look like a bit of a "squashed cat" - but that sort of desperation and physical pressure is what our native game is all about. It's different to the world game (although there are actually many parallels if one wishes to look for them) - but that's fine by me!

I always feel that our NT should explore legitimate options to apply more pressure on opposition teams. There's nothing in the rule book that says you must allow the opposition to pass it to each other freely without trying to get the ball back off them. Indeed, I think Italy is at its very best when it plays the pressing game into the opposition half.
_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 15, 2007 3:40 PM

Re: The mandatory 3mins "sin bin" for people seeking treatment.

This wont work. What happens if there is a legitimate need for treatment because of a bad tackle. This will only benefit the team flying in with the bad tackles.

Posted by: Syd Knee on June 15, 2007 3:45 PM

Re: The mandatory 3mins "sin bin" for people seeking treatment.

This wont work. What happens if there is a legitimate need for treatment because of a bad tackle. This will only benefit the team flying in with the bad tackles.

Posted by: Syd Knee on June 15, 2007 3:45 PM

No BPR I specifically remember it was against Croatia - trust me I remember, I was more impressed with him getting the red card rather than Croatia winning the game!!!!

Posted by: Lidija on June 15, 2007 3:46 PM

In response to Pippinu at 1:47pm

To further the discussion on an injured player going off for say 3 mins minimum, there would still be a need for the play to be stopped. This would be on the basis that the player obviously would still be on the ground. I reckon a Ref still has to give the benefit of the doubt to an injured player (and probably a duty of care in these litigious days).

Obviously, if a a runner was to enter the field there is nothing to stop the runner bringing the game to a stand-still (or further disrepute) by attracting the Ref's attention by over-emphasising any degree of injury...you can imagine the new tricks of the trade brought to the fore by runners in football.

How about letting the players and Ref just sort things out. If you stay down injured then it better be serious 'cos you will be going off for treatment for 3mins minimum. If you aint in pain, simply get on with the game.

I always laugh at those players who feing injury and then undergo a seemingly instant and miraculous cure when the Ref has them removed from the field. Such players have the audacity to then go ballistic about wanting to get back onto the field. For mine, make these show-pony players wait on the sidelines for 3mins or more and watch the sudden drop in divers and those who feing injury.

Runners would only play into the hands of these show-ponies who dive and feign injury - these divas are just attention seekers by nature - have a look at the names mentioned in this Blog and you can't convince me that the vast bulk of these players would stop in the middle of a busy road if you put a mirror in front of them. Most of those who dive and feign injury are so self-absorbed already - on the field or off it, these show-ponies only want attention. Runners are manna from heaven for divas.

Posted by: DaddyC on June 15, 2007 3:57 PM

To Syd Knee: 3minutes treatment will probably not be enough for someone on the end of a malicious tackle. Let's not forget that the Ref who sees such a malicious tackle has other powers to deal with the perpetrator. I still reckon 3mins on the sideline will deter many divers and feigners of injury.

Posted by: DaddyC on June 15, 2007 4:05 PM

Sorry guys off the subject.

Tevez has been linked to Liverpool, Inter and now Man U. Has there been any confirmation on where he is going. As I would love to see him at Liverpool.

Posted by: AL BUNDY on June 15, 2007 4:13 PM

KB you're right again, Craig Moore was covering nicely, and Neill may have (either accidentally or on intentionally) forced Grosso in his direction, in which case it was better defending (in concept rather than execution) than I gave him credit for in my other tirade.

Amazing how one incident, even with multi-angle replays viewed multiple times can still be such a debatable issue with no clear right answer - one of the beautiful things about football!

Posted by: Slippery Jim on June 15, 2007 4:26 PM

I always laugh at those players who feing injury and then undergo a seemingly instant and miraculous cure when the Ref has them removed from the field. Such players have the audacity to then go ballistic about wanting to get back onto the field. For mine, make these show-pony players wait on the sidelines for 3mins or more and watch the sudden drop in divers and those who feing injury.

Posted by: DaddyC on June 15, 2007 3:57 PM

I believe this is the crux of the problem, and the solution. If you quickly recover once you have been removed from the field, you cannot re-enter the field of play for an extended period (ie 5 mins), as DaadyC says "watch the sudden drop in divers and those who feing injury."

ps DaddyC, you wouldn't happen to be MichaelC's father would you? If so, he's been a bad boy, bringing up that stupid victorian 'sport' at every possible opportunity. He needs to be reprimanded, severely.

Posted by: Brickowski on June 15, 2007 4:27 PM

Saviola has been linked with Napoli - But Man Utd are apparently interested in him as well.

Posted by: cheech on June 15, 2007 4:31 PM

Was that Friday night game the one between Essendon and West Coast?

Sorry Pippu didn't engage me that much, I don't know who was playing... well your description of the game makes it sound the like the Liverpool V Chelsea sh1t-on-a-stick TM game. Sorry, but while I can understand the intensity it is not for me.

AL BUNDY - no confirmation from what I know but I think Inter is the best bet. Surrounded by Argentinians, this is where he'll want to go and I suspect that that is where he will go even if it isn't the best money deal that can be reached. I think if a biggish Spanish club comes into the picture he'll probably go there too before staying in England.

Posted by: Vicentin on June 15, 2007 4:35 PM

Posted by: Brickowski on June 15, 2007 1:51 PM

Bricks, if you'd actually watched the video samps put up, you'd have seen why I think it was so stupid.

On Cristiano, we've been through this several times already, he does dive sometimes, but he has improved that a lot, like Drogba, this last season, and besides, Robben is far FAR worse at the moment, and even Gerrard (Sheff United, Andorra etc) and Lampard (Israel) do it as well!!! So, Cristiano is by no means the worst cuplrit.

And, yes, I find him attractive, so do many other of my fellow females, but it is his magic on the football pitch that makes me such a big fan. This is why I also love watching Ronaldinho when he's in full flight as well - its the flair, and, I suppose, joy they bring to the game which makes them the best players in the world, along with Kaka, at the moment.

-----------------------------------

Funky I'm a Gooner and back in London over Christmas - Arsenal v Chelsea 15th December & Arsenal v Spurs 22nd December, great stuff. Well happy with that. Come on you Arsenal!!

Posted by: John on June 15, 2007 3:32 PM

Good luck with that, John.

Anyway, think its the 15th of December is a BIG day of matches - Liverpool v United, Arsenal v Chelsea. Can feel the anticipation already!!

BRING IT ON!!!

Posted by: funkymarinette on June 15, 2007 4:37 PM

Re: The mandatory 3mins "sin bin" for people seeking treatment.

This wont work. What happens if there is a legitimate need for treatment because of a bad tackle. This will only benefit the team flying in with the bad tackles.
Posted by: Syd Knee on June 15, 2007 3:45 PM

Syd-Knee,
I would like to at least see it given a trial. If you think about it; it is usually longer than 3 minutes before a legitimate injured player is up and running properly.

So, by the time a physo takes his magic sponge or uses his instant pressure pack recovery spray, it's well over 3 min.

It would be fair to say anyone who jumps up straight after he is taken to the side line should not have been taken off in the first place e.i. faking or having a not so serious injury.

If he did receive a not so serious knock he should stay on the field and just run it out to avoid the 3 minutes sin bin.

I think it has merit for a trial at least.

KB
___________________
"F" stands for no more Fakes

Posted by: Koala Bear on June 15, 2007 4:43 PM

Posted by: funkymarinette on June 15, 2007 4:37 PM

Funky,

I did actually watch the video, you don't think I come into the office to work, do you?

I found it quite funny, as I did with your response, hence my little dig at you.

Posted by: Brickowski on June 15, 2007 4:51 PM

Posted by: DaddyC on June 15, 2007 3:57 PM

DaddyC,
You said it all. The prosecution rests your honour..!

KB
________________________
"P" stands for get rid of show Ponies

Posted by: Koala Bear on June 15, 2007 5:00 PM

Posted by: pippinu on June 15, 2007 1:18 PM

A tear because that is the ethos we played under? When there are only 3 points on offer in an Amateur League game there is no place for that rubbish. Like you I dislike diving and yet am not opposed to gaining an advantage from a legitimate foul.

Referees need to punish blatant diving on the pitch with yellow / red cards. A match review commitee should fine and suspend players found guilty after a match. To do this requires FIFA to display some nuts.

The 3 minute idea has some merit. Take a leaf from the horse racing industry. A horse breaks through the barriers and is brought back behind the stalls, before it is allowed to start it must undergo a check from an independent vet. Likewise, any player leaving the field for an injury must undergo a basic 3 minute check by an independant doctor before entering the field of play.

Posted by: Hutcho on June 15, 2007 5:14 PM

No BPR I specifically remember it was against Croatia - trust me I remember, I was more impressed with him getting the red card rather than Croatia winning the game!!!!

-----------------

No Lidija, I think you will find he got red carded against South Korea not Croatia. Look on Youtube for futher evidence. Reaserch is your friend!

Posted by: BPR on June 15, 2007 5:21 PM

MELBOURNE, June 15 AAP - Reluctant Socceroo Mark Viduka looks set to captain Australia at the Asian Cup next month despite nearly turning his back on the national team.

I have to admit - I have a very bad feeling about how this is all starting to pan out.

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 15, 2007 5:34 PM

Posted by: Vicentin on June 15, 2007 12:36 PM

But Vicentin, you live by the sword, you die by the sword. Sometimes it goes your way, Grosso 06, sometimes it doesn't go your way Totti 02. From a neutral point of view I thought Spain was unluckly to lose to Korea in 02, but didn't see too much wrong with the Italian result.

But the way it panned out for Italy in 06 penalty to knock Australia for Totti, could we see some redemeption for Neill in 2010 where he scores a crucial goal on the way to WC glory.

Posted by: Robbos on June 15, 2007 6:52 PM

Cheating occurs in all forms of the game. Whether it be holding your head after being touched on the chest in soccer, or sprawling yourself on the ground to milk a hands in the back penalty in AFL. The problem needs to be addressed, but the ruling authorities are reluctant to do anything about it now, as to do so would involve shaming some of the biggest names in each code. Whilst we think this is a good thing, I can see why they might be slow to act as it is these players who are used as role models to promote the game.

As for biggest divers, after watching Valencia and Spain play several times, David Villa. I brilliant player, just doesn't want to play like one.

As for a story, well last weekend when I was running around the pitch (6 a side style), the game was stopped for an injured player on the other team. Upon the restart I kicked the ball from the halfway (note small pitches we play on) to the keeper, he fumbled it, so I picked up one of the easiest goals in my life.

Heads

Posted by: Heads on June 15, 2007 7:51 PM

.... could we see some redemeption for Neill in 2010 where he scores a crucial goal on the way to WC glory.

Posted by: Robbos on June 15, 2007 6:52 PM

Well here's hoping - I like Neill and I've not the slightest doubt that he learnt a helluva lot from the World Cup.

I accidentally (really) watched the official FIFA film of the World Cup again the other night and I have to say what an extraordinary World Cup Grosso had. He was about the most unheralded player in the squad and yet appeared in almost all the significant moments (Materazzi the other) of their tournament. The "dive", the fantastic first goal against Germany and the penalty to seal the (well deserved) win against the (cheating, diving, pompous, garlic snail eating, bicycle riding) French. He was at Palermo before the World Cup and then transferred to Inter. Unfortunately he has had a fairly quiet season - possibly on account of not being Argentinian ... mah, un buon ragazzo. Of course he's an imposter playing for Italy because, as Pippu would tell you, he's Sicilian(u).

Funky, you'll enjoy these - seriously, credit to JogaBonito on the Guardian blogs for spotting them.

Carle would be stupid to go to Galatasary rather than Fenerbahce, FB are so far ahead now winning the championship, into the champions league, signing players like Carlos and Kazim. GS just managed to come third and have sacked their coach and got back their old coach who is in his 70s and has a history of heart problems.
Besides it would be good to have an Aussie in my adopted team here.
Yasaa fenerbahce
Go Sydney FC

Posted by: Nathan on June 15, 2007 8:09 PM

... and nothing to do with diving or cheating - just skill and talent.

I nominate the entire Shanghai Shenua team as the worst divers and injury feigners I have ever seen. Whenever the ball came anywhere near them they jumped in the air, came down in a theatrical crash and rolled around in agony for five minutes. Absolutely disgraceful.

Spectators spent half of the game waiting for the Chinese and Uruguayan actors to get back on their feet. We should all have been refunded the price of admission.
If they were carried off on a stretcher, as soon as they got to the sideline they stood up and jogged back on the field.
The referee had no idea how to stop it and the SFC players were not experienced enough to deal with it.

And then the all so sincere apology from their Uruguayan coach after the game. What an insult.

And all for what? They were coming last in the group and had no chance of progressing anywhere but back to their cave.

Posted by: jimbo on June 15, 2007 9:16 PM

Now back to the Asian Cup.

With Australia red hot favourite to top Group A - who will go through with them?

Under normal circumstances, Thailand would be considered the weakest of the 4, but being one of the host nations, they might fancy their chances against Iraq and Oman. They are certainly the best placed of all 4 host nations to go through (but I doubt they will).

Oman has had a few good years in the local comps, and must start as the favourite to get the 2nd spot.

My tip remains Iraq. They finished 4th in the Olympics 3 years ago, and a few from that squad are in the NT. By rights, considering all the hardships they'd be up against, they shouldn't even have made it this far - so you can count on them having plenty of mental strength (an important ingredient in tournaments).

In the qualifiers, they were grouped with China, Singapore and Palestine, and ended up topping the group on goal difference (a pretty good effort). They actually opened their account with a loss to Singapore, but that was their only loss for the qualifiers. They gave China their only defeat, and drew with them in the return game.

Iraq plays 4-4-2 and have a decent strike force. They've scored 72 goals from their last 43 games at at an average of around 1.7 per game. I've already written about a young midfielder, Akram, who has some Premiership clubs interested. Younis Mahmoud was their leading scorer during the qualifiers with 4 goals (from 6 games). He is partnered by Hawar Mohammed who is a reasonably experienced international player. Hard to know what they're like up the other end of the park - they have conceded fewer goals over the same period (at around 1.3 per game), but I'm not sure how to guage that.

Iraq was ranked at 78th at the time of publication (of the Asian Cup mag).

Summary:
My tip to go through behind Australia (but no further than the quarters).
Players to watch: Younis Mahmoud (striker) and Nashat Akram (RM).

so diving sux and everyone knows it. But guess what guys, it aint gonna stop. For this, I believe fifa are largely to blame. The most prominent example of why is the fair play rule. Who thought this up? Check this scenario- a player goes to ground feigning an injury after a legitamate tackle and the oppostion team come away with the ball. There attack builds into a promising one but as the position begins to look dangerous it's brought to there attention that bug-a-lugs is still rolling around as if caught in a man trap at the other end of the field. So they surrender there attack and knock the ball out of play. Once the imaginary treatment has been recieved the opposition then throw the ball in to one of there defenders who duly lumps the ball down the other end of the field. The attacking impetus is lost completely and cheatig is rewarded once again. Fair play? You've got to be kidding!
But, these are the sorts of areas that fifa choose to focus there attention on. It's only gonna get worse, but hey you gotta love it or leave it alone.

Posted by: aussie jambo on June 15, 2007 11:08 PM

Big trouble a-brewin' in England over the 'bungs' affairs, just been announced by the Guardian that Chelsea, Newcastle, Bolton, Boro & Pompey have been named as offenders with the following transfers: "(Emre Belozoglu, Jean-Alain Boumsong, Amady Faye, Albert Luque), four to Bolton (Ali Al-Habsi, Tal Ben Haim, Blessing Kaku, Julio Correia), three to Chelsea (Didier Drogba, Petr Cech, Michael Essien), three to Portsmouth (Collins Mbesuma, Benjani Mwaruwari, Aliou Cisse) and two to Middlesbrough (Aiyegbeni Yakubu and Fabio Rochemback) while one transfer has not been disclosed."

thats funny... I wondered if daddyc was father of michaelc too!! Perhaps we should ask Michael C, who's your daddy?! hes not shown up much lately.. maybe he is on an afl blog! Not much to say about diving... though I remember when Jurgen Klinsmann scored a goal for spurs v Villa, on his first appearance... he dived as his celebration.. I seem to recall the mighty villa won, even so.

Posted by: juanpabloangel on June 16, 2007 1:48 AM

I've come acrosss Michael C on the squashed-cat blog, where I have also been made to feel most unwelcome by all the Sydneysiders!

I feel like I am between a rock and a hard place, with nowhere to rest my weary head.

Is there nowhere on Earth where I will be welcomed with open arms?

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 16, 2007 10:26 AM

Posted by: Brickowski on June 15, 2007 11:56 PM

Yeah, saw that last night - will be interesting to see just what happens with it, and hopefully this will be a step in the right direction to driving corruption out.

Anyway, in some other news from the Olde Dart, Giggsy has been awarded the OBE and Teddy Sheringham has been awarded an MBE in the Queens Birthday Honours. Great news for us united fans, and well deserved, particularly Giggsy. Gosh, if we do the treble again next year (not counting on it, but not impossible either...) and he breaks Sir Bobby's appearance record, perhaps we could have a Sir Giggs on our hands!

Posted by: funkymarinette on June 16, 2007 11:17 AM

I have been a life-long player and lover of the game of football, but I am increasingly being fed-up with the benefits that cheating gets out of the game. Its not just blatant dives, it also occours when two players of opposing teams are challenging 50/50 for the ball, using their upper bodies, and the player that starts to lose
out just hits the deck and gains a free-kick.

It seems that increasingly if a player hits the deck they automatically win the free=kick. Players should be rewarded for staying on their feet, not for hitting the ground. It is perfectly within the rules of the game to use upper body strenght and shoulder ro shoulder contact. How increasingly the game is being disorted and badly infleunced from players and countries that are going away the tradionaly game, and getting free-kicks for nothing challenges. Brazil were perhaps one of the worst offenders during the World Cup, as seen in our game against them.

fifa needs to take a stance against all the crap that goes on. The diving, wasting time, feigning injury. Players should be shamed for cheating by using post-match analysis. I dont care what great pieces of skill Rivaldo has shown on the field, he is an absoulute discrace, and should have been shamed and suspended. that dive did more bad for the game, than any positive contribution his skill could bring to it.

I know Craig Foster, constantly bemoans the direct play of the game seen in the UK. he may have a point there. However I was watching a Scottish cup game the other day and found it utterly refreshing. No pathetic diving, time wasting, and soft-arsed penalties given away. Players that were distrubed didnt just automatically hit the deck. Players were rewarded for staying on their feet, by retaining possesion. The game wasnt dominated
by a whistle-happy ref encouraging players to hit the deck on the slightest bit of a contact, by giving away free-kicks. Football is the best game in the world,but FIFA need to take a stance against all the crap that goes on in the game.

Posted by: chris on June 16, 2007 12:38 PM

chris on June 16, 2007 12:38 PM

Good post, of course you have to remember that Markus Merk, the referee in the Australia-Brazil game was a total disgrace. That's why FIFA let Harry Kewell get away with abusing the hell out of him at the end of the game. There were definately two standards at play in the that game - one for Brazil and one for Australia.

Your points about the Scottish game are interesting - when football is played properly (IMO) it is a physical game and the use of your body particularly in shielding the ball is huge part of one's ability as a footballer. Pele, Maradona, and George Best (amongst others) used to have to deal with some horrific tackles and they would just get on with it knowing that referees weren't going to blow the whistle. It is always about balance I guess and I suspect a more universal training regime for referees so that everyone knows what is and what isn't acceptable would begin to address this. Bring on utopia.

Funky, a post of mine (8.00pm 15 June) went missing for a while - you might enjoy the links - featuring Giggs and Rooney.

Posted by: Vicentin on June 16, 2007 1:39 PM

# Posted by: pippinu on June 16, 2007 10:26 AM

yes when u move to sydney lol

Posted by: Eddie on June 16, 2007 1:44 PM

Posted by: chris on June 16, 2007 12:38 PM

Good post Chris - agree with what you say. Our game against Brazil last year was a classic example of what you're saying. But it went even beyond what you're talking about (players simply dropping to the ground and getting a free, which is bad enough, and I agree that it is absolutely endemic) - every 50/50 decision went in favour of Brazil, such that the foul count was something ridiculous like 31-9 in favour of Brazil. This was no more evident when on 3 seperate occasions, Dukes was in front, had the ball in front of him, the defender was hacking away at his heels, yet the ref somehow managed to spot a transgression against Dukes!

What are we talking about here? Something that has been increasingly evident with every WC I've seen over the last 20 years - top sides getting the calls and weaker sides can go please themselves. If you don't believe me, you should check the foul count for the last WC, after the group round, it favoured the top teams by a huge margin. And you can take this from someone who watched nearly every group game - only the top sides ever get away with diving - it's the weaker sides that cop the yellows for simulation!

This is why I supported Harry in his outburst - I though fark it - give it to this bloke - he was an abosolutely hopeless ref who was pathetically biased. The fact that no action was taken against Harry in the post-match tribunal (unbelievably), and that the whole episode was quickly hushed up - tells us a lot about what went on - the authorities did not in any way wish to put the performance of Germany's top ref under the spotlight - it would have been hugely embarassing - so they swept the whole episode under the carpet (and Australia continued to get a raw deal in their next group game).

So this is one area I would like to emaphasise on this thread: refs favouring tops sides over weaker sides in international comps.

While this is a slightly different issue, it's a good opportunity to mention again the uncertainty Australia will encounter in the Asian Cup in the manner in which the Asian refs will interpret the game. Second only to the conditions, this is the biggest worry for the Socceroos.
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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 16, 2007 1:44 PM

I picked out this little gem from Peter FitzSimons's Saturday article and thought to myself how many of you heard of this player; a blast from the past?

I picked him in my 11 best players of the century in a blog we had back some time ago. I just thought I would share it with my fellow London club supporters.

He didn't have to cheat, or dive, nor rely on the hand of God; he just stayed on his feet and smashed them into the back of the net.

Greaves in the mix Dear TFF,
I'm ready to play a round of TFF's Mixed Metaphor Madness. This has fired my imagination since the 1960s, from a report in either the London Telegraph or the then Manchester Guardian. The writer said of the England striker: "Greaves turned on a sixpence and unleashed a rocket with goal written all over it." Picture that!
Douglas Fergusson, Northbridge

Yes Dougie, I saw him do it for Spurs..!

KB
___________________________
"M" stands for Metaphor Brilliance

Posted by: Koala Bear on June 16, 2007 3:44 PM

"Is there nowhere on Earth where I will be welcomed with open arms?"

Yes Pippinu! The flog would not be the same without you! Just as we like our Mariners supporters and Jets supporters (and supporters of other teams if they come, sorry if I've forgotten anyone!), we also like our Melbourne supporters. Adds a nice touch of variety.

But if you don't feel welcome here, surely you would on the Victory forums?!?

Posted by: tintin1989 on June 16, 2007 4:11 PM

Actually Vicentin my good man, I think Fabio Grossois either Romano or Abruzzese! That commentator said he was Palemmitanu by accident during the world, I think he meant to say "the young man whi PLAYED for Palermo". Even though he does look quite swarthy ( a Sicilian trait :) )

You are correct - well according to Wiki he was born in Rome. I'd also pictured Pippu looking like him... I guess I'll have to picture him as Toto Schillaci now!

Posted by: Vicentin on June 16, 2007 5:46 PM

Posted by: tintin1989 on June 16, 2007 4:11 PM

ha, ha - yes - good point! I do frequent the main victory forum, and for the most part it's pretty good.

But it's massive and you get all sorts turning up, including a lot of ultra-wanna-bes who lay on the attitude real thick, but are obviously trying a bit too hard.

I forgive them because for the most part I imagine they're quite young - and as you all know by now - when I was young I didn't know my ar$e from my face!

Hey Boss - I didn't think Grosso was all that swarthy! Would he get his head punched in if he walked the streets of Cronulla? (actually, he probably would!)
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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 16, 2007 6:17 PM

Pippinu, you'll always be welcome on the Tonk.

Posted by: peter warrington on June 16, 2007 6:36 PM

If no one has any objections, I'd like to move on to having a close look at Oman.

Oman was ranked 72 (at the time of the Asian Cup mag), 6 spots ahead of Iraq. It seems to have made great progress over the last 4 years or so. Indeed, it was only back in 2000 when it plummeted to it lowest ranking of 106.

In the meantime they qualified for their first Asian Cup in 2004. They didn't progress, but did end up with a win and a draw in what was a reasonably tough group (drew 2-2 with Iran, def Thailand 2-0 and only lost to eventual champion, Japan, 0-1).

In that same year, they made it to the Gulf cup final, after defeating Iraq 3-1, the UAE 2-1, and Bahrain 3-2 in the semi. They lost to Qatar 1-2 in the group stage, and met them again in the final for a credible 2-2 draw (losing the cup on penalties).

They made the Gulf cup final again this year where they had a hatrick of 2-1 results against the UAE, Kuwait and Yemen. They defeated Bahrain again in the semi, and then met the UAE where Oman lost 0-1.

Oman actually was up against the UAE again in the Asian Cup qualifiers - honours were shared with a win apiece. The UAE topped that group by only one point, and Oman edged out Jordan by two points. But as you can see, over the last 4 years, Oman have consistently got good results against teams just below and above them in the rankings.

Over this time, in 41 games, they have scored 86 goals and conceded 35 - which is pretty good both ways in anyone's language.

However, I note that in the qualifiers, their top scorer was an AM, Ismail Al Ajmi with 3 goals (3-5-2 formation). So to me at least, it puts a bit of a question mark on their strikepower currently (remembering that their group included Pakistan who lost all 6 of their games).

Their strength appears to be their defence. Their captain is one of the three CBs, Mohammed Rabee. I have already mentioned that their keeper is the reserve keeper with Bolton - Ali Al Habsi - and he also spent 4 years in Norway - he's only 25. As we know, quality keepers can keep any outfit in a contest - but equally, we know that if he is a back-up keeper, he ain't been facing too many balls lately.

Summary:
Would certainly be the favourite to progress in 2nd spot on its recent history, and a team that is probably capable of anything on its day - but still I think it will come in behind Iraq.
Players to watch: AM Ismail Al Ajmi and the keeper, Ali Al Habsi.

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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 16, 2007 7:11 PM

Peter W - what are you doing here! thanks for the vote of confidence!

Vicentin - if you can find my user page in the Sicilian Wikipedia, you'll find a couple of pictures of me and my kids (including Beni, so that you can be assured that he actually exists!). How? Take the link to Lu Circulu, and then look for a sign-off in Greek letters (that's me).

If you've forgotten where it is, google Paggina principali - and the first entry will be our main page.

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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 16, 2007 10:56 PM

Pipps, no way, you look nothing like I thought you would, I had actually been to this page before by googling your name, didn't see the photos though.

The kids look good and healthy, future captains of the Footyroos and Matildas no doubt.

Posted by: Brickowski on June 16, 2007 11:39 PM

pippinu on June 16, 2007 10:56 PM

Well, you certainly don't look like Toto (or Fabio Grosso)! Nice looking kids - I'd had it my head for some reason that Beni was the younger of your kids but clearly not. I'd reciprocate but I have to keep my identity a secret from Brickowski and Samps (being local and all) ... that and I just don't have anything on the web anyway. I'll have to remain a man of mystery for a while longer.

cheers

Posted by: Vicentin on June 17, 2007 1:09 AM

ha, ha guys - I don't know how the kids came out as gorgeous as they did! (they don't look like their mum either)

Don't let the white hair fool you - I'm not as old as I look! (although the bones and joints feel like it at times)

And it's probably been about 12 years since I had Grosso's phsyique!! (and I'm much taller than Toto!)

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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 17, 2007 8:22 AM

Time to move onto Thailand, for the final team in our group.

I said once before, under normal circumstances we wouldn't give Thailand too much of a thought - but they are a host nation, we're on their dung heap (on their terms conditions wise), and they probably represent the best bet of the 4 host nations to cause a boilover (although Indonesia has been improving over the last few years).

That's the good news for them. The bad news is that they have a terrible record in the Asian Cup (zero wins, 7 draws and 7 losses from 14 games) - but at least they appear to have made it 4 or 5 times, even if they have never made it past the first round, a trend that is likely to continue. By the way, Thailand also hosted the Asian Cup in 1972.

Last Asian Cup they lost all 3 games: 0-2 to Oman as already mentioned, 0-3 to Iran and 1-4 to Japan. I expect them to go a bit better this time round - but only in terms of the scorelines, not necessarily the results.

I note that they managed to defeat the UAE 3-0 at home in a World Cup qualifier in late 2004 - but truly one of the few bright points that I can find in their recent playing record. Being a host, they haven't actually played all that many games over the last 18 months. They also managed to lose to Singapore in the final of he ASEAN football championship - and that says it all really. In that time, they have also had coaching issues - so all in all - not much there to suggest that any of the other teams have too much to worry about.

They did lose to Holland 1-3 recently, scoring a consolation long-range goal from a free kick (pretty good one too). Interestingly, in regard to the scorer of that goal, Tawan Sripan, I can find nothing - so maybe they have a few aces up their sleeve. Indeed - this bloke isn't even in the squad named! They might regret it!

I've already mentioned that in 37 games they have scored 57 goals, at an average of nearly 1.6 per game - not too bad really (but many of those games are against nations ranked below them)

Thailand play a 4-2-1-3 system, with their captain Kiatsuk Senamuang in the middle of a front three - but unfortunately he has had injury worries of late. He is a bit of a local legend, has been capped over 100 times and is known in Thailand as Zico! I've seen him show up on the score sheets a few times - but I doubt he is going to worry Australia too much - he is 33 years of age. He may not have made the squad for this tournament.

They have a 23 year old AM, Dutsakorn Thonglao who is making a name for himself in the region.

There is another young striker who has spent time with the youth teams of Crystal Palace and Everton in the recent past, Teeratep Winothal.

Nothing more to say really. I'm trying to remain as open minded as I can about Thailand - but by rights, they should not bother Australia, and if we have already qualifed, Arnie can take a lot of liberties in our final game against them (to rest players).

Both Iraq and Oman would be expecting to defeat Thailand. If Thailand take a point off either - that could almost spell the end of them.

______
pipinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 17, 2007 1:59 PM

Pippinu,

I am also worried by the way in which the game and the refereeing may be conducted in the Asian Cup. Unfortunately it seems that the Asian teams are starting to really adopt some of the worst aspects of football. Such as the diving and time wasting. One only needs to think about our game against Bahrain and some of the ACL games to see this.

Also the fact that the Australians will generally be larger than the Asian teams that they encouter and Australia has an unfair reputation for being overly physical may see a lot of farcical free kicks against us. I really hope the Asian Cup is dominated by the rubbish in the game, but I fear that it will be.

Posted by: Chris on June 17, 2007 2:47 PM

With your fairsh skin and light coloured eyes, may I suggest you look, ahem, somewhat Northern! Now don't take this as insult but it's probably pretty common for a lot of Sicilian folk to have light hair and fairsh skin, 3 of my Sicilian Aunties have red hair!!!

Posted by: BPR on June 17, 2007 2:50 PM

Just got this off the Vics forum (but don't know the source):

"Newcastle United Jets have confirmed the transfer of Socceroos midfielder Nick Carle to Turkish side Genclerbirligi, and not champions Fenerbahce as initial reports suggested.

The 2006/07 A-League Player of the Year has signed a three-year deal after intense negotiations with Jets Chief Executive Officer revealing the transfer fee is in the region of $A650,000.

"There were varying levels of interest from a number of clubs in Turkey for Nick Carle and after intense negotiations agreement was reached with Genclerbirligi Ankara," Liolio said in a statement..

"This outcome was the one that the player preferred as well as being in the best interests of the Jets. The transfer fee is in the vicinity of $650,000 to the club with on sells attached."

Carle, who last week earned a call-up to Australia's Asian Cup squad, had previously stated his intention to return to Europe in his quest to secure his place in the national team set-up.

"Nick has been a wonderful player for the Jets and a favourite with the fans, and he’ll be missed, but it wasn’t in his or our interest to hold him back," Liolio added.

"This is a big opportunity for Nicky and he goes with our best wishes. He’ll be playing in a league that includes some of the world game’s elite players."

"However, I’m sure he’ll have fond memories of Newcastle and that he’ll be following the Jets’ fortunes in the upcoming A-League season."

Carle returns to Australia on Monday or Tuesday from Turkey for an official media conference arranged by the Jets.

Genclerbirligi facts:

* Genclerbirligi finished sixth in the 2006/07 Turkish Super League

* Genclerbirligi is the former club of Australian midfielder Josip Skoko, who was transferred to Premier League side Wigan from the Turkish club. "

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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 17, 2007 7:34 PM

A few things before I go to bed:

1. I'm still a bit mystified by this whole Viduka business, and whether there remains any underlying issue that has not been properly dealt with. Anyone care to comment?

2. TWG is running a story about the head of the AFC assuring the FFA that they are truly loved in Asia. These sorts of stories always worry me because I retain a fear that our membership in the AFC will be shortlived (because of short sighted sectional interests, not mentioning any names).

3. There's a story doing the rounds in the Vics forum that we're getting Kaz on a loan deal. About a day ago someone quoted a piece from a Portuguese paper or something. I'm not getting too excited yet, but the forum has been pretty spot on with this sort of stuff the past month. I'm inclined to believe the report because you might recall that a couple of months ago it was reported that MV was chasing two players based in Costa Rica and Portugal - even back then I was speculating that it might be Kaz (but with no basis). There are now hundreds of posts on people trying to work out a starting line-up squeezing him in - it's all hilarious - I'm not even going to try - I had already worked out my perfect line up - and if this is true - it's all become too hard! I'll be entirely honest here - I just don't know how you would fit him in! Given that there'll be socceroo and olyroo games over the course of V3 - common sense says that it doesn't matter - teams like MV are going to need depth because they may not have their full squad availabe once every 4 rounds (not to mention suspensions and injuries).

_______
pippinu
The Victory is looking so strong - I can't keep up!!

Posted by: pippinu on June 17, 2007 11:43 PM

Now there is a club name that just trips off the tongue!!

Posted by: juanpabloangel on June 18, 2007 5:14 AM

Checked out this guy Prieto.. hes played in first teams of a few decent level teams... and in Europe and Brasil... seems to have been sub a few times... but he should bring some experience to the squad

Posted by: juanpabloangel on June 18, 2007 5:34 AM

Nick Carle,

From one website, the new club Gençlerbirligi has an average crowd of 10K so far this season with the highest crowd being 21K.

Very similar to last season of the Jets. Seems like its the money thats drawing him.

Posted by: PJ on June 18, 2007 8:58 AM

A few weeks ago I took comfort in the fact that Arnie was planning to play Harry "in the hole" behind Dukes. But many will also recall that I was mystified by Arnie's comment about playing him at the front of the diamond. I was mystified because thinking about the possible formations, I couldn't reconcile this comment with Dukes playing solo upfront.

In Les Murray's latest opinion piece, he canvasses this exact question, I quote:

" Arnold has already told colleague Philip Micallef, on this site, that he wants Kewell to play in ‘the hole’, or in a role just behind the main striker (Viduka) at ‘the front of the diamond.’

But what diamond? A four-man or a five-man one (with two holding men plus three attackers)? "

Exactly - is Arnie talking about our usual 4-2-3-1 formation, with Harry in the middle (but I'm not sure if one would normally call that a diamond?), or is Arnie going to surprise us with 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1? Or even 3-4-3? (with Cahill and Bresh either side of Dukes, or something similar)

Les rightly talks about our embarassment of riches in midfield, especially on the attacking side, and rightly so.

As we too have done, Les laments the paucity of LBs. He says: "Even at A-League level there’s not much around. After Chipperfield, the best of our still available left backs is probably Alvin Ceccoli, now in Japan. After that, maybe Adrian Caceres, if he can be blooded to possess some defensive maturity. And Shane Stefanutto, who played there against Denmark in November, clearly didn’t impress Arnold enough to be retained. "

Not wishing to sound like an educationalist, but I thought Chippers actually played against Denmark (although you may not have seen him such was Denmark's dominance of our left, and their counter attacks were so lightening quick). I'm pretty sure that Stefanutto only played in the China game, he's debut game and one and only cap to this point.

Les does not even give any consideration to Carney at all. That being the case, it is strange that he would view Caceres as a potential left-back.
_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 18, 2007 9:42 AM

Heres a "Sliding Doors" version of the Lucas Neill Grosso incident.

Scenario one
Sneaky Slimeo is confronted by Loco Supine.
Loco Supine lives up to his name and Sneaky takes full advantage in front of colourful referee "Showertime" Cantalejo.
Up steps "finish off the quivering rabbit" Totti and clinically blasts it pasts the outstretched arms of Schwartz the Stretcher.

Italians have one thought one emotion "Joy" and move on to the next match.

Aussies spend the next two weeks expressing a range of views and emotions and blame everybody and everything from the drought to the "Footy Show" crew being in Germany.

Scenario Two
Sneaky Slimeo is confronted by Loco Supine. Loco stays upright and tackles Sneaky head on the ball catapults out of the tackle and hits defender Craggy Daggy on the hand.
"Showertime" calls the penalty and up steps "Shaky Knees" Totti hits the ball indecisively and "Schwartz the Stretcher" tips it over the bar.
The game goes into extra time and Craggy makes amends for the penalty by heading home the winner.

Aussies have one thought one emotion "Joy" and move on to the next match.

The Italian team join the Amish community in the USA and Italians spend the next 100 years blaming everything from Julius Caesar to Berlusconi for not having done more for the honesty of Italian politics.

Finally no matter that Maradonna or Messi were cheats used their hands or took drugs or that bribes take place or that Hillsborough or Heysel or Bradford happened or countless other flaws appear in the world game real football fans dont give a toss all they really remember is Maradonna's memorable goal against England and Argentinas 2nd goal against Serbia.

Posted by: Odin on June 18, 2007 10:15 AM

Odin
A worthy appraisal of the two scenarios, but the conclusion leaves me a touch mystified.

You are suggesting that Australians aren't real football fans because they went on a touch too much about the incident (which might have a grain of truth in it).

On the other hand, you happily admit that the Italians would continue blaming everyone for the next 100 years if the shoe had been on the other foot. They certainly complained long and hard after the South Korea defeat in 2002!

Let us also not forget that the English have never forgotten Maradona's first goal! (and probably care little for the memorable one)

Argentina scored at least half a dozen wonderful goals last WC, indeed if you were to come up with the 6 best goals of the tournament, they'd have 4 in there minimum - but they still failed to make the semi finals.

Real football fans also understand that making it to a WC final is as much about exploiting the single opportunity that presents itself in a key match as much as anything else - and most likely, that single opportunity will not be goal of the tournament.

38,000 souls and counting, the magic 50,000 well within reach and EA Sports on board as a sponsor...make no mistake this thing is going to live and breath, get on board!

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 18, 2007 12:51 PM

Posted by: pippinu on June 17, 2007 11:43 PM

you invited comment - so I'll suggest what came to mind first that I heard it all:

I speculate the whole Viduka thing was a beat up just to grab some headlines.

You can call me a cynic if you wish - although, I don't see it as being 'negative' or 'anti', just as 'playing' or 'exploiting' the media to one's own benefit.

It got some people talking during the non-'elite'-domestic-soccer season about Viduka and the socceroos for a few minutes in between getting their tips in for the weekends major domestic 'footy' tournaments.

btw -

Loved the comment from Today Show sports guy this morning, as he lamented the Wallabies going down to Sth Af who kicked 2 field goals to come from behind. Comment being that that's not how you play football.
Hmmmm,
Is he a League person wanting Union to be just like League?
Can he not understand the differences and how they impact structure and strategy?
And, surely, 'football' IS all about kicking goals?!?!? Oh, except that Rugby League game which appears to be the one exception.

(basically, he wanted a RU field goal to be worth 1 pt as well, so, like in RL, would only be used to break a deadlock near end of game -if he got his way, then they'd be a step closer to merging the 2 codes)

Posted by: Michael C on June 18, 2007 1:34 PM

"Melbourne loans Columbian drug lord for 2 years"

Jed
I'll assume that you know the difference between a Costa Rican and a Colombian.

But in any event, Melbourne hasn't loaned anyone anything, rather it is the Costa Rican Club that has loaned Melbourne a player, a very good player, for two years.

The talk on the Vics forum, with half-decent sources from Portugal, makes it clear that the Victory must be very close to nabbing Kaz on a loan deal from Benfica (and it looks like it's gonna cost MV bugger all).

Now if people on the FLOG cannot see what is happening before their very eyes, then I'm not sure I can help them. But from where I am standing - I am seeing lots of daylight....

It's a very, very big call to put our domestic teams ahead of the Socceroos as they attempt to win the most important piece of silverware they have ever won (certainly more important than the Merlion Cup from 1983 and 1984).

Michael C
I really struggle to get into Rugby, but it does occur to me that England won the last rugby world cup because they had a bloke who could kick a footy - and I've never been able to work out why Australian rugby teams are full of blokes who can't kick a footy over a jam tin.

By the way, I think your assessment of the Viduka issue is a bit unfair, and, well, I simply can't see why you would jump to that conclusion!
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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 18, 2007 2:19 PM

If the jets have an extra 650K to splash around then maybe they should make another bid for Aloisi (the other one).
Have they got a marquee player yet, or was Carle it?

Posted by: PJ on June 18, 2007 2:22 PM

pippinu on June 18, 2007 11:04 AM

Thanks for spending the seven minutes after your previous post typing that up - I know you are man of honour and wouldn't have cut & paste. ;0)

There are a lot of countries in Africa - is that 46 teams in there? Wonder how many play Aussie Rules or League?

Pippu, I've noticed that the activity on the Flog has really slowed down since we've seen your photo, can there be a link? Come on guys don't be frightened, if anything Pippu comes across as even friendlier now that I've seen his visage.

By the way anyone watch the first leg of Boca V Gremio on TWG yesterday? Have to admit I was disappointed by Gremio's performance but Boca looked the business and it must be pretty difficult playing football on a centimetre of confetti! Standout players for Boca - Riquelme (what a star), Ledesma (excellent wing play), Palacio, Palermo and Banega (only 18 and already linked to big clubs in Spain and Italy.)

And now that Real have won La Liga, will Capello be given the sack for the second time after winning them the title? That would be a pretty unique record.

Posted by: Vicentin on June 18, 2007 2:24 PM

Vicentin
I noticed that things have dropped off - and I have become a bit self-conscious about it. Yes, I am a fairly friendly bloke!

C'mon everyone - there's exactly 20 days to the start of the Asian Cup!

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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 18, 2007 2:34 PM

Posted by: pippinu on June 18, 2007 2:19 PM

Pippu, do you want me to repeat the very long list of people Victardry have linked themselves to in the past 6 months?

Santa Claus is on his way to Stade de Tard by all accounts.

What are you getting at? Melbourne loans a player...?

---

Posted by: PJ on June 18, 2007 2:22 PM

No they don't Ante Covic was a marquee but they rightly downgraded him to regular after his horrible debut season back in Australian top flight Football.

I am excited about the potential at Jets having banked themselves a nice little return and the on sell is a great piece of business...so if Carle does blow up, Jets get a taste too!

3 South Americans too!!! I hope they all end up staying on.

The Aloisi situation is odd...seems everyone has gone cold on him even overseas...I still rate him though.

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 18, 2007 2:41 PM

"What are you getting at? Melbourne loans a player...?"

I was getting at this: that you were so intent at denying the obvious (and having a dig at me) that your sentence was ungrammatical. But I'm not here to give remedial classes on the use of the verb "to loan".

What I am here to do is to impress on everyone that if the news about Kaz turns out to be true (and I am 98% confident that it is) - then we are starting to talk about daylight between MV and the rest of the comp. When you start to look at a bench consisting of Kaz, Broxham, Caceres and Piorkowski, you're starting to talk about something quite amazing.

It's not just the sheer quality of the starting XI, which is head and shoulders above the rest of the comp - it's what's on the bench that is almost as important, and which well and truly marks MV as the club to beat this season.

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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 18, 2007 3:18 PM

Posted by: pippinu on June 18, 2007 2:34 PM
It's like Christmas isn't it? (20 more sleeps) and you certainly look a friendly individual from the photos.

Your post earlier today regarding the shape our side will take is intriguing and I too am a little confused by what GA has said. I like the idea of Harry and Bresh playing off Viduka high up the park. Wilkshire impressed me enough to suggest a role providing some defensive cover on the left, Grella does what he does, Culina on the right and Cahill providing the thrust through the middle of the park. That leaves Emo, Neill and Kisnorbo. 3-4-3 for me. First go at this so I hope it works.

I recall a few people querying the selection of Petkovich as our third keeper. I think it a prudent choice given the performance of Brad Jones against Uruguay. A little bit of experience is a good thing IMO.

Posted by: Hutcho on June 18, 2007 4:00 PM

Posted by: pippinu on June 18, 2007 10:57 AM

Each to their own "Sliding Door" interpretation of happenings in World Football.

Posted by: Odin on June 18, 2007 4:18 PM

Pip
I for one, to quote Big Kev "Im Exited" about the Asian Nations Cup.

No too sure about Arnie playing up are so called "favourite's" tag. Iran, Japan, Sth Korean even Iraq who beat up in the last Olympics are no easy beats.

Technically and skill wise the Asian teams are very efficent. Our strenght will not always win a match.

remembering that Bresh often plays from the left (he's pretty good on either foot) - and you'd think that Cahill could play on the right in an attacking role without a problem.

In such a formation, we'd expect the most running from those between Grella and Dukes, all of whom have handy replacements on the bench (remembering the importance of rotations - over the course of 3 games, no outfielder should be playing more than 2.5 games).

The question then becomes whether Culina can play as a wing-back? To which I don't know the answer.

Whichever way it goes, as Les Murray wrote, we are obviously going out to take each game by the scruff of the neck - and I agree with him that that's the way to go about it.

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 18, 2007 5:14 PM

The ABC TV sports show "Offsiders."

There was an interview on the ABC's Barry Cassidy sports programme on Sunday morning with Graham Arnold and Johns Harms (ABC).

I really liked what he said and he has certainly matured from being in the last WC campaign and made a lot of sense.

No wonder the players love him; he is all green and gold and wears his heart on his sleeve.

If any Aussie coach deserves the backing of a nation it is GA. He has certainly matured in a management roll and now that he has a decent squad to work with and all the players 100% behind him he will show his worth.

I think this campaign will send a clear message to the FFA that we need managers like GA in control or a Guss Hiddink to come back no others need apply.

KB
________________________________
"GA" stands for Great Australian national coach

Posted by: Koala Bear on June 18, 2007 5:35 PM

Posted by: Vicentin on June 18, 2007 2:24 PM

Sorry mate, but since you won't make yourself known to us, I've been busy trying to track you down.

You're not Mary Smith on Flood St are you?

Posted by: Brickowski on June 18, 2007 5:54 PM

Spent much of last week stranded in the Hunter Valley. A small 3 foot wide creek out the front of our rental property turned into a 10 metre deep, 250 metre wide river overnight. Luckily the house was on the high ground, some of our neighbours were not so fortunate. No power for 3 1/2 days and very soggy. Biggest problem was no golf and no winery tour. :(

Harry in the hole has always been a source of frustration for me. He plays his best football a little wide and running at defenders IMO.

Culina has quickly become our most versatile player and I would have few qualms with him providing the link to get Emo forward and providing cover. Grella reads a game beautifully and could provide cover.

Rotation will be key as you said. It was nice to throw an Australian team together and sit there thinking "gee, it's a bit stiff leaving such and such out". The conditions will be very tough and suspensions will be lurking around the corner given our reputation and penchant for a physical game.

Our attacking set pieces could be a big weapon and the aerial presence of Cahill and delivery from Bresh makes it look a little more threatening.

Posted by: Hutcho on June 18, 2007 6:00 PM

Posted by: Brickowski on June 18, 2007 5:54 PM

So you guys don't actually know each other? But how did you work out that you all live in the same part of Sydney?

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 18, 2007 6:06 PM

Posted by: pippinu on June 18, 2007 6:06 PM

I don't know Vincentin, no. I think he may have worked it out when I posted my location on another site. We have crossed paths I'm sure, we were at the same pub for the Uruguay match.
I'm contemplating getting Brickowski printed on the back of my v3 SFC shirt when they're released, so he may be able to point me out in the near future.

I've known Samps for over 30 years though.

Posted by: Brickowski on June 18, 2007 6:34 PM

Posted by: Brickowski on June 18, 2007 5:54 PM

You're not Mary Smith on Flood St are you?

Curse you Brickowski!!!

Posted by: Vicentin on June 18, 2007 6:37 PM

....I don't know Vincentin, no....

Posted by: Brickowski on June 18, 2007 6:34 PM

Or Vicentin for that matter...

Posted by: Brickowski on June 18, 2007 11:46 PM

Ben Willing: Newcastle fans get a chance to farewell Nicky Carle today, between 5-6.30pm at the Main Auditorium United Sports, Bryant Street, Adamstown.

Posted by: Ben Willing on June 19, 2007 12:44 AM

Posted by: pippinu on June 18, 2007 3:18 PM

You're a tool, a real fake!

Can I loan your pen please?

Sometimes you give us hope...then you prove to be just another Tard.

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 19, 2007 8:51 AM

The big question is can anyone match MV victory this year. Their recruiting of Kaz Patafta shows that MV officials are thinking outside the nine dots. The recruitment of MV has been outstanding in the off season.
Kaz was a player that caught Hiddink's eye last year & was one of 4 youth players in the world cup train on squad for experience prior to the WC.
This player has long been regarded as the next Harry Kewell, I hate these sorts of labels, but it shows this kid has skills.

When are Sydney going to make some announcements??????

Posted by: robbos on June 19, 2007 9:25 AM

It looks like we can put off our plans for hosting the WC for another 16 years:

JOHANNESBURG, June 18 AFP - FIFA president Sepp Blatter declared today South Africa was on course to stage a "wonderful" World Cup in 2010, dismissing criticism as nothing more than jealousy. Blatter, making his first visit to South Africa since work began building or refurbishing 10 stadiums in nine cities, said that his earlier fears about the rate of progress had been allayed and preparations were on target.

Unless he's gilding the lily!

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 19, 2007 9:30 AM

It was nice to throw an Australian team together and sit there thinking "gee, it's a bit stiff leaving such and such out".

Yeh, I agree Hutcho - that really hits home when you play around with the names a bit.

Of course that statement applies predominantly to the midfielders - there's not the same problem if you are trying to pick 4 defenders!

Re Kewell - what you say is true - in truth his best possie is no possie (if that makes any sense!).
_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 19, 2007 9:35 AM

A little alarmed to read in the daily Terror today that Telstra Stadium wants a second Sydney A-League team playing out of there...

No thanks - the last thing we need is a side playing out of a soulless empty stadium, ala the NRL. Telstra is a great ground, when its full!

Give me Penrith or Campbelltown any day

Ben Willing: Telstra Stadium are desperate for tennants, so I'm not surprised they want an A-League team playing there. I completely agree about the lack of atmosphere unless it is full.

Posted by: albe on June 19, 2007 9:36 AM

The paper that normally reports AFL on its front, middle and back pages, has written the following on the Kaz signing:

"A-LEAGUE champion Melbourne Victory looks set to sign one of Australia's most promising soccer talents from one of Europe's biggest clubs on a loan deal.

Teenage midfielder Kaz Patafta, who has spent the last 18 months at Portuguese giant Benfica, is expected to return to Australia and join Victory for the season starting in August.

Patafta, 18, captained Australia's under-17 side at the 2005 world championships and trained with the Socceroos' World Cup squad last year.

Victory refused to comment yesterday on whether the club had signed Patafta.

However Portuguese newspaper Record and a Portuguese television station yesterday quoted Benfica as saying they had agreed a $75,000 loan deal with Victory for Patafta.

An attacking midfielder, the 170cm-tall Patafta would add to Victory's impressive list of off-season signings.

Originally from Canberra, Patafta is an Australian Institute of Sport graduate, but he was overlooked by A-League clubs in the lead-up to the competition's first season.

Instead he secured a dream move to Benfica, playing mainly youth team football this season for a club that played in the European Champions League and finished third in the Portuguese top division. "

As I have already said a few times, and I'm sure everyone is sick of hearing it, so I won't labour the point, but I'm seeing daylight.

_______
pippinu
Estoy enamorado de los Victoriosos!

Posted by: pippinu on June 19, 2007 9:42 AM

I've gotta admit, Patafta is a great signing if it's true (I have no reason to doubt it though, given the tards recent track record). The Sydney board must realise how far we are falling behind for v3 and a ball hasn't even been kicked yet. I'm getting increasingly worried that nothing is being done to add to our squad, hopefully some news out of Bondi soon.

________________________________
SFC - Sign Farken Cocu

(and Aloisi while you're at it)

Posted by: Brickowski on June 19, 2007 9:59 AM

Why are Melbourne ahead of the pack ?
Simple answer they knew what they wanted and where they were going from the start administratively through their management understanding the local market and on the field with astute coach Merrick and Football manager Cole picking the players and whats more were prepared to wait to get the results.

Take the rest

Sydney-administration was ad hoc and from a playing perspective went for a short term solution in All night Dwight and Terry 'Rivers of blood on your shirt" Butcher Had no forward planning and lacked exciting players(oh sorry Zdrilic )in a huge football market.

Qld Roar- Administration stable but went for the cheap option of employing the carpet layer from the BPL who believed that footballers ran around the pitch at 200kmh but "hey Miron theres a ball involved somewhere" instead of getting an experienced coach from a higher level.

Perth- Administration what administration? thought that they were still in the NSL and trained to play the Melbourne Knights instead of Melbourne Victory with a coach who thought so much of Aussie football that he put his son in the first team because he had shone in the under nines in England.

Adelaide-Administration ok and playing staff ok but were never going to rise much above their first season in the NSL days.
Plus they had a red mist coach who believed flair and panache were two pommie comedians.

New Zealand-left blank

Newcastle- Administration ok Con had big ambitions but chose a pommie coach who wasnt "right on the money "then employed "Alphabet" a guy whose ego is so big that SBS had to enlarge their doors to get him into their studio.

Central Coast-Administration and coaching ok but still choosing too many transport cafe cooks instead of a few gourmet chefs.
Need to be less provincial in their outlook or may become the Bolton of the A-League.

Fortunately in A-League season three clubs are getting their acts together and whilst Melbourne will still dominate it will not be as easy as season two.

Posted by: Odin on June 19, 2007 10:16 AM

Posted by: pippinu on June 19, 2007 9:42 AM

Pippinu, though I dislike MV, due to obvious reasons, I tend to agree with sentiments that MV are leading the way, not sure about the daylights bit though.
My interest in the A-League succeeding goes beyond my dislike for MV & Melbourne is very important in the success of the A-League.
Newcastle has recruited well this year as well & their coach will have them from the start & in my opinion, they have the best ex socceroo (Paul Okon) on their books. A couple of their Sth Americans come with great credentials.
Adelaide has also recruited well.
Sydney has yet to finalise their side, but their best signing was their coach Cullina, as seen by the play in the recent ACL.

I love your passion for the MV & definately respect their recruitment policy, BUT...... the beauty of sport especially football, it's played on the park not on paper.

Posted by: Robbos on June 19, 2007 10:31 AM

Ben Willing: Telstra Stadium are desperate for tennants, so I'm not surprised they want an A-League team playing there. I completely agree about the lack of atmosphere unless it is full.

Posted by: albe on June 19, 2007 9:36 AM

They reckon they'll average 20k season 1(more than SFC),but they are still looking for a millionaire backer.Which will be 1 less backer for SFC or the Gong.

Above story is on the ABC.
Can you believe after all the problems & talk of SA not being ready for the WC,that this is his first site visit to the planned & upgraded stadiums?

3 years to go.

Posted by: EJ on June 19, 2007 10:50 AM

Posted by: pippinu on June 18, 2007 11:04 AM

Congratulations Pippu on what is surely the longest post of all time!

After perusing your Wikipedia page, I have to agree with BPR - you don't look very Sicilian - unlike my my brother-in-law who is from just north of Corleone (yes, from the Godfather!) and apparently his family moved to Australia due to his uncle's involvement in the Mafia. He is very dark and swarthy with a massive cleft chin!

You're kids are really cute, are they adopted? (heh heh)

Posted by: Slippery Jim on June 19, 2007 10:53 AM

You're a tool, a real fake!
Can I loan your pen please?
Sometimes you give us hope...then you prove to be just another Tard.

1. Well, I can be a bit of a fake. But I have already confessed to acting the part of a rugby-loving Afrikaaner in the WC blog. I haven't done something similar since.
2. You can loan my pen - if your intent is to borrow my pen and then loan it to someone else. But Sydney English might be different to the English I learned at Footscray North Primary School.
3. As long as there is some hope - we can all be satisfied! But at least I never resort to name-calling or making personal derisory comments against anyone. Afterall, I'm a friendly bloke!

_______
pippinu
Estoy enamorado de los Victoriosos!

Posted by: pippinu on June 19, 2007 11:11 AM

Sorry everyone about that long post - I had no idea it was going to turn out bigger than Ben Hur - I thought people might be interested in what's happening with the African nation's cup.

Vicentin broached the subject of Africa having a lot of nations. I'm wondering whether UEFA has nearly caught up with the inclusion of all the newish East European nations and those tiny principalites and island quasi-states. Must be pretty close.

Which gets me thinking, and I know many floggers are in agreement - all the more reason to create one single Americas confederation and one single Asia-Pacific confederation. Meaning 4 confederations of roughly the same number of nations. In decades to come, each confederation will have a minimum of 6 and a maximum of 10 participants in the WC.

With the confeds cup - each would have two participants as a standard.

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 19, 2007 11:20 AM

yes indeed pippinu it must change and i've privately thought for a long time that the introduction of a trainer/runner system could be implemented, i have no reason to see why it wouldn't work, that is assuming the player down isn't located in the immediate area of play. which means that even if you do bring in the system it'll just limit those who wish to cheat to having players located within the play to dropping like flies

ultimately, yeah it's annoying but i don't respect players who dive or go down easily, i appreciate the arrogance and determination expressed by those who stay on their feet for the most part, such as bobo vieri, shearer, martins

and in response to one of the earlier posts re: pippo inzaghi, now as a milan fan i may be biased but having watched him for many years with juve and then milan, i felt he changed his style of play and was a much stronger player on the ball after coming to milan, still a twig though

meanwhile all that i say to people that use diving as a reason to hate football is that the game is just that, and it is what you make it, so when i play, i don't dive, and i love the game because i love to play, not just as a consumer so the argument is kinda nullified

I also believe that although Melbourne are looking like the team to beat in V3, I don't see daylight.

Unless he's gilding the lily!

Posted by: pippinu on June 19, 2007 9:30 AM

Isn't that all he does?

Posted by: djebella on June 19, 2007 11:36 AM

Their is apparently talk that A-League version 3 Marketing will centre around the unique atmosphere created by football fans at A-league matches using the theme "90 minutes 90 emotions" in TV advertising with the emphasis on the FFA taking greater responsibility for overall A-League advertising leaving clubs to concentrate on their local market.
I wont put the whole article circulating around on the Flog as it appears to have no official source but it makes an interesting read.

Ben Willing: It looks genuine from what I know. I was at one of the focus groups where we discussed the uniqueness of football crowds. Apparently the TV advert has been filmed using crowd shots (using "actors" playing the part of a crowd, in Melbourne).

Posted by: Odin on June 19, 2007 11:45 AM

"The recruitment of MV has been outstanding in the off season." Hear hear. If they are under the salary cap, I want to know how on earth Sydney managed to breach it a with the squad they had?!?

The Mariners "Need to be less provincial in their outlook or may become the Bolton of the A-League."
I reckon what they're doing is brilliant! Their youth academy is what all the other clubs need to develop. Their local players are very talented, look how their youngsters did in the Hong Kong 7s tournament. With the cream of Central Coast's talent alongside a few foreigners and imports from Sydney or other areas, they can do well. Why is it that people are delighted that the Phoenix is getting lots of Kiwis, but you object to the Mariners doing the same thing?

Re a Western Sydney team playing from Telstra Stadium. I actually think the people from the stadium have made a fairly convincing argument. Definitely not before the 5 years is over though. And I probably would still go for Penrith or Paramatta. Would a team based at one of those stadiums move big games (like Finals and derbys) to Telstra?

Posted by: tintin1989 on June 19, 2007 11:49 AM

djebella on June 19, 2007 11:36 AM

re the Youth Academy - sounds like a really positive step. I'm intrigued by what these kids will be taught. I agree with Craig Foster (and others) that it important to have a footballing philosophy and with that in mind I wonder what kind of footballers they are trying to produce. I'd love for them to be striving for technical excellence and encouraging maximum creativity in their players etc. Look forward to seeing some of these young guys in the A-League and ultimately overseas if they end up doing it right. All good for the A-League and football in Oz.

Sydney - do something. I hope I'm only not hearing anything from them because they have all these think-tanks working overtime and plotting some fantastic masterplan - but I'm just not feeling that delusional .... happy to be proved wrong.

Posted by: Vicentin on June 19, 2007 11:59 AM

Melbourne Victory is looking at signing patafta on a loan deal worth 75K.

with all these star signings sydney will be looking forward to snatch back what is rightfully ours!!!

Posted by: Eddie on June 19, 2007 12:24 PM

* Posted by: tintin1989 on June 19, 2007 11:49 AM: Would a team based at one of those stadiums move big games (like Finals and derbys) to Telstra?

Great location for a Sydney derby if the second team is in the outer west.

A battleground at the half way point between the two! :)

Telstra is best left for the showpiece matches

Posted by: albe on June 19, 2007 12:40 PM

"The Mariners "Need to be less provincial in their outlook or may become the Bolton of the A-League."

I reckon what they're doing is brilliant! Their youth academy is what all the other clubs need to develop. Their local players are very talented, look how their youngsters did in the Hong Kong 7s tournament. With the cream of Central Coast's talent alongside a few foreigners and imports from Sydney or other areas, they can do well. Why is it that people are delighted that the Phoenix is getting lots of Kiwis, but you object to the Mariners doing the same thing?"

Couldn't have said it better myself!! From the performances in Hong Kong, things look very good for the future at the Mariners!

Reckon Victory or FC are probably the favourites at this stage, and Adelaide will be there or thereabouts, but I reckon Mariners and Jets could be the dark horses, maybe Queensland as well. Lets just hope it is a close league, and the Premiers will be decided in at least the last couple of weeks.

Interesting thoughts re Patafta, but still nothing official, so we'll just have to see what happens.

On other matters, just found this article on TWG - the German federation has just announced its first woman to referee a professional men's match, admiteedly in the second division.

I have to admit, one of my greatest lifetime dreams in football is to see a female manager win the world cup, or champions league. But, before we get anywhere near that, there would need to be a fundamental shift in attitude around the sport, and female managers starting to break into the big European leagues. I'm sure there are former female players out there who have the talent to manage the big teams, but, as I said, there will need to be a big shift in views before that happens...

What do other floggers think? Could we see this starting to happen, or will football always be a male-oriented sport?

Posted by: funkymarinette on June 19, 2007 12:51 PM

No problems with a youth academy but they will still be producing Australian players which is great for the development of our players and something which has been drastically lacking in the past but nobody on the Flog can tell me that the A-League will flourish if it is full of Australian players.
Because one if they are any good ie David Williams ,Dario Vidosic at the Roar they will depart overseas at the first opportunity and will only excite for one or two seasons at most and two we are involved in the world game and that means we want to see Hernandez, Cassio type players bringing their different Football cultures and styles to our A-League.
A wunderkid developed through the CCM academy will not bring 5,000 more fans through the gate at 18 because within two years he's gone,12 years later maybe after becoming a Socceroo and playing for Arsenal yes but the 'Freds or returning "Dukes " are still needed to pull fans through the gate.

The academies are necessary and positive for the development of Aussie football generally and may help the revenues of clubs in many ways but they are not going to bring fans through the gate.

If CCM rely on Youth development as their main source of players they will still remain the "Bolton of the A-League".
Manchester United have always produced exciting youths who went on to star in their first team the major difference is that they didn't have to leave Manchester to do it, but they also realised you have to have the players who can bring you that extra edge and excitement ie The Cantona's Ronaldos etc.
Our A-League clubs at the level of player we can afford are no different.

Posted by: Odin on June 19, 2007 1:08 PM

A little alarmed to read in the daily Terror today that Telstra Stadium wants a second Sydney A-League team playing out of there...

No thanks - the last thing we need is a side playing out of a soulless empty stadium, ala the NRL. Telstra is a great ground, when its full!

Give me Penrith or Campbelltown any day

Ben Willing: Telstra Stadium are desperate for tennants, so I'm not surprised they want an A-League team playing there. I completely agree about the lack of atmosphere unless it is full.

Posted by: albe on June 19, 2007 9:36 AM

Give it up you two...nothing to do with whether Football thrives or not, its all about protecting Sydney FC's little world...reality time, the West is the home of Football in Australia...thats where your fear lies, getting smashed week in week out by your self proclaimed socio-economic inferiors.

All this talk of Football heading back to its home scares people in the east. You can smell it!

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 19, 2007 1:28 PM

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 19, 2007 1:28 PM

I don't think it actually 'scares' us. It will detract from the work SFC are trying to do, on top of that it will look like an empty stadium most weeks and that is not good for the league at all.

Western Sydney will get their team eventually but, Homebush should be considered part of SFC's 'catchment area' and all the crap outside of that can belong to the Western Sydney Parolees.

Posted by: Brickowski on June 19, 2007 2:01 PM

Brickowski on June 19, 2007 2:01 PM

Western Sydney will get their team eventually but, Homebush should be considered part of SFC's 'catchment area' and all the crap outside of that can belong to the Western Sydney Parolees.

Ever considered International Diplomacy as a career option? Perhaps for the U.S.

Jed, I don't think it is fear - I think all of us here want a second team in Sydney at some point - I can see it happening in the fifth year. But we are after expansion, so why set up a second team to simply cannabalise the first? That wouldn't be expanding anything.

Posted by: Vicentin on June 19, 2007 2:36 PM

If CCM rely on Youth development as their main source of players they will still remain the "Bolton of the A-League".
Manchester United have always produced exciting youths who went on to star in their first team the major difference is that they didn't have to leave Manchester to do it, but they also realised you have to have the players who can bring you that extra edge and excitement ie The Cantona's Ronaldos etc.
Our A-League clubs at the level of player we can afford are no different.

Posted by: Odin on June 19, 2007 1:08 PM

You've missed the point!! We have just brought in Sash and Owens,and Heffernan is back from Germany, so its not like we are just relying on the academy for players. I think what Lawrie is trying to do is suppliment the squad by giving talented local or academy players, like Matt Simon and Nigel Boogard, the chance to show what they can do on the top stage in Australia, thereby showing our local players that, if you work for it, and prove yourself, you could get a chance at the highest level as well. Given the performances in Hong Kong recently, some of these academy boys looks pretty good, and there will probably be more brought into the A-League over the next few years.

So there is the youth element involved, but we'll still be looking to get the best and most exciting squad we can for the Mariners, and this seasons one looks pretty darn good to me!!

Posted by: funkymarinette on June 19, 2007 2:36 PM

Posted by: Odin on June 19, 2007 1:08 PM

Odin, You mentioned Cantona & Ronaldo, French & Portuguese, you can also include Brazil, Argentina, Holland. All great footballing nations with a far stronger football culture than Australia.
They all lose their best players to stronger leagues. All our best players will always be headhunted by the bigger clubs of Europe, you have to accept that.

What we want to stop is those going the 2nd tier competitions in Europe, like Poland, Romania, English, Spanish & Italian 2nd division sides. This should be the aim of the A-League, we are a fair way from that, the Kewells & Dukes will always leave, it's the Carles we need to keep hold of.

Nick Carle going to Genclerbirligi is a big difference to going to Galatasary or Fenerbahce. I now wish he stayed in Newcastle Jets.

Posted by: Robbos on June 19, 2007 2:37 PM

Posted by: Brickowski on June 19, 2007 2:01 PM

Hows about a nice firm "Nut, get sufft!" from the Wanderers, we do it where we want, when we want!

Homebush is in the West and its got world class facilities befitting of an A-League franchise.

I hate to admit it but FC is making Sydney look like a joke, Victardry are killing Sydney for signings, its over.

I have not confidence in FC doing anything significant so I think we need a new team and a new direction. The West is traditional powerhouse of Football and Homebush is the best place to showcase it.

You guys keep SFS and FC, you're a perfect match...substandard facilities for a substandard team.

I return from loan at FC during ACL to head North to Newcastle until the arrival of the Wanderers.

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 19, 2007 2:47 PM

I hate to admit it but FC is making Sydney look like a joke, Victardry are killing Sydney for signings, its over.

At last, something we can agree on!

MV may need to await the inclusion of a West Sydney team for a game befitting of blockbuster status.

_______
pippinu
The Big V IS Football!!

Posted by: pippinu on June 19, 2007 3:00 PM

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 19, 2007 1:28 PM

I thought you had stated previously that Telstra is not the venue for such a team. Are you just ticked off that someone said Penrith and Campbelltown before they mentioned your beloved Parramatta?

Posted by: Hutcho on June 19, 2007 3:01 PM

Nick Carle going to Genclerbirligi is a big difference to going to Galatasary or Fenerbahce. I now wish he stayed in Newcastle Jets.

Posted by: Robbos on June 19, 2007 2:37 PM

Couldn't fault that assessment and I hope in 5 years he is playing at a far bigger club but would not hold my breath on that.

Posted by: Odin on June 19, 2007 3:09 PM

The gamesmanship has begun:

TOKYO, June 19 AFP - Japan's dour coach Ivica Osim has poured
cold water on any hopes the country will win a third straight Asian Cup, recalling their disastrous exit from the World Cup last year.

"I can cite 1,000 reasons why Japan may not be able to win the
title. And they are indeed convincing reasons," the Bosnian said as he announced Japan's provisional squad Monday for the Asian Cup finals.

19 days to go.

Posted by: pippinu on June 19, 2007 3:12 PM

With Jed defecting, who will defend us against the evilness that is the Tards from down South, those WIAP loving people.

Posted by: Robbos on June 19, 2007 3:27 PM

Posted by: funkymarinette on June 19, 2007 2:36 PM

So gosford are looking to become the Ajax (latter day, not glory years) of the A League? A noble intention and good luck to them, they will find that all the stars from this academy will be gobbled up by the bigger club

Hows about a nice firm "Nut, get sufft!" from the Wanderers

Wow, if that's not confirming the stereotype....

Posted by: Brickowski on June 19, 2007 3:49 PM

Posted by: Robbos on June 19, 2007 3:27 PM

I could use some of my legendary diplomacy skills to ward them off. Failing that I know where I can get a Samurai sword real quick.

Nick Carle going to Genclerbirligi is a big difference to going to Galatasary or Fenerbahce. I now wish he stayed in Newcastle Jets.

I think if you see it as a stepping-stone it may yet be the better move (over Fener or Gala). As others pointed out that Fenerbahce have the Brazilian Alex as their playmaker already and he may have struggled for game time. I think at Genclerbirligi (I cut and pasted your spelling) he may have the opportunity to really shine and get the eye of a bigger European club in the way that frankly he'd less likely have got staying in the A-League. We are probably not established enough as a league for large European clubs to trust any performances they see in the A League. A good season at Genc... and he'll be spotted.

A possible negative scenario - Nick goes to Fener, struggles for game time, loses confidence, loses form, gets homesick, comes home or goes to a lower division in the UK...

...that said I would have preferred he was going to Fenerbahce too. All the best to him regardless.

Posted by: Vicentin on June 19, 2007 4:07 PM

I like what CCM has done with this academy idea. In years to come, when the cap is triple what it is today, this idea may well prove to be their salvation (in terms of finding talent without spending big bucks, and maybe even through generating transfer fees). There are hundreds of clubs in Europe who survive in this manner, knowing that they will never, ever, ever seriously threaten for a championship (but they will survive).

In 20 years time, CCM fans will look back on that grand final appearance as the club's crowning achievement. This is not to belittle what the club may achieve in other areas in the future, it is simply facing reality. (But copy this somewhere, and remind me when I'm proven wrong - and stick it up me! I would have deserved it for being an arrogant git!)

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 19, 2007 4:08 PM

Posted by: pippinu on June 19, 2007 3:00 PM

Friendly??? Pffft. It was all a ruse!!!

Posted by: Hutcho on June 19, 2007 4:16 PM

Hows about a nice firm "Nut, get sufft!" from the Wanderers

Wow, if that's not confirming the stereotype....

Posted by: Brickowski on June 19, 2007 3:49 PM

Its not my job to educate fools, people will always have their own prejudices, I prefer to just separate them from their money.

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 19, 2007 4:23 PM

I was wondering why SFC weren't playing a trail match out at penrith stadium in the pre-season but then again it's playing right into the hands of a possible new western team.

I bet you SFC are kicking themselves for playing out a penrith stadium in the first place.

Posted by: PJ on June 19, 2007 4:29 PM

Posted by: Vicentin on June 19, 2007 11:59 AM

From what I can gather most of the coaches (if not all) have taken the new FFA coaching courses. So I can only hope that implies that the focus will be on technical excellence and creativity, that's what Rob Baan's here for isn't he?

Posted by: Odin on June 19, 2007 1:08 PM
Funky tackled this pretty much spot on. I will add though thatA wunderkid developed through the CCM academy will not bring 5,000 more fans through the gate at 18 because within two years he's gone,12 years later maybe after becoming a Socceroo and playing for Arsenal yes
is exactly the point I was making about the club having a long term plan

Posted by: djebella on June 19, 2007 4:48 PM

Friendly??? Pffft. It was all a ruse!!!

I tell you what Hutcho, that 0-0 draw last season in front of 50,000+ spectators had the hallmarks of a friendly!!

RE Gençlerbirliği S.K. - they made it to the 4th round of the UEFA cup in 2003-04, and have been in the top half of the table since. If Carle gets plenty of game time and they get back into UEFA Cup contention, that will be enormous for him personally.

Let's not forget also that the Jets pocketed a sweet 650 grand!

And at the end of the day, most Turkish clubs have names that are difficult to pronounce!!

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 19, 2007 5:06 PM

With Jed defecting, who will defend us against the evilness that is the Tards from down South, those WIAP loving people.
Posted by: Robbos on June 19, 2007 3:27 PM

Why of course you Robbos; with a little help from me. I have infiltrated the fortress down south "the Thunder Box" and I think it is only a matter of time that we shall be getting more news from SFC headquarters.

My bet is now that operations and home ground will be at Wentworth Park.

Frank Lowy always had a keen Interest for Wentworth Park when Hakoah used it for their home matches; along with his greyhound dog's interests.

Sources tell me that the Lowy family has already secured a corporate box for the Friday night dogs.

Edmund Capon is now showing real interest in SFC; he is on the case of another Dutch Master the "Cavalier" 17th century Dutch striker.

Tiny in stature maybe, but very elusive as it seems, he's there one moment and gone the next.

And my sources also tell me he is close to closing in on a deal with the little Dutch master. Only time will tell..!! ....Stay tuned

KB
____________________
"G" stands for SFC gone to the dogs.

PS they'll come good.

Posted by: Koala Bear on June 19, 2007 5:14 PM

(But copy this somewhere, and remind me when I'm proven wrong - and stick it up me! I would have deserved it for being an arrogant git!)
Posted by: pippinu on June 19, 2007 4:08 PM

Done! I can't wait till we snatch that golden toilet seat out from under you.

Posted by: djebella on June 19, 2007 5:16 PM

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 19, 2007 4:23 PM

It's not very clear what your trying to say there Dr. Jed. Are you saying I'm the fool, or the people of western Sydney? Is it me that you intend to separate from my money? If so, how?

Or in words that may be more familiar, ploise exploin.

Posted by: Brickowski on June 19, 2007 5:51 PM

Posted by: pippinu on June 19, 2007 4:08 PM

While I can see where you are coming from here, especially as you say in years to come when the cap has tripled & the smaller regional sides struggle due to sponsorship. But to me there is always room for regional sides, look at Geelong in the WAIP comp, they have survived.

Posted by: Vicentin on June 19, 2007 4:07 PM

Yes Vicentin, I see your point very clearly & yes hopefully it is a stepping stone for Carle. But it would be great that in years to come, when our budget is bigger we are able to hold on to the better players & improve the league to a stage where the big Europeans teams will come & get only our top players. While the 2nd tier teams like Genclerbirligi, would not be an attraction or stepping stone for our players.

Posted by: Robbos on June 19, 2007 5:52 PM

that 0-0 draw last season in front of 50,000+ spectators
Posted by: pippinu on June 19, 2007 5:06 PM

Just thinking about it has set off my narcolepsy again.

I prefer to see someone like Carle go to a lesser club in this instance. You are better off getting game time and running rings around the likes of Fenerbache and Galatasary than getting splinters on their bench.

Off to Victory territory for a couple of days. Until next time...

Posted by: Hutcho on June 19, 2007 6:02 PM

Courtesy of AAP:

FOOTBALLERS BEHAVING BADLY - 2007
RUGBY LEAGUE:
BULLDOGS
Sonny Bill Williams - Swears off the drink after being fined
$650 for urinating outside a nightclub. Earlier in season was
caught on phone camera in compromising situation in a pub toilet
with former ironwoman Candice Falzon.
Ben Roberts - Suspended for breaking curfew; faces drink-driving
charge. Matter still before courts.
TITANS
Anthony Laffranchi - Charged with rape in March over incident
last September when he was with Wests Tigers. Matter still before
courts.
Chris Walker - Suspended by club and ordered to undergo alcohol
counselling after nightclub altercation at Surfers Paradise in
April.
PANTHERS
Craig Trindall - Charged with assaulting a woman with a
children's blackboard on Easter Sunday. Matter still before courts.
Frank Pritchard - Charged with affray following street brawl in
Sydney in February in which he and his three brothers were stabbed.
Matter still before courts.
Craig Gower - Subject of club investigation over alleged
incident at Peppermint Lounge nightclub, where he was accused of
biting another man on the neck. No charges laid.
SEA EAGLES
Anthony Watmough - Former girlfriend seeking AVO against him.
Matter still before courts.
RAIDERS
Todd Carney - Serving 200 hours community service for driving
while licence suspended for earlier drink-driving offence, and
fleeing scene following police car chase.
Steve Irwin - Sacked by club for his involvement in same
incident. Carney was driving Irwin's car.
WESTS TIGERS
Bryce Gibbs - Charged over an alleged brawl at the Golden
Slipper race meeting in March. Matter still before courts.
DRAGONS
Wes Naiqama - Sentenced to 12 months periodic detention in
February for fourth conviction of driving while disqualified.
AFL:
DOCKERS
Chris Tarrant - Accused of punching an NT politician and baring
his backside to a woman in a Darwin nightclub last weekend.
Jeff Farmer - Serving out club suspension after being charged
with punching nightclub bouncer in April. Matter still before
courts.
EAGLES
Ben Cousins - Remains in rehabilitation for addiction to illicit
drugs.
Daniel Kerr - Fined in February for drunkenly ripping aerial
from taxi and throwing it at driver. Faces August trial over two
unrelated assault charges, which he denies.
BLUES
Heath Scotland - Fined $5,000 by Carlton for his role in an
alleged assault outside a Ballarat nightclub in February, although
no charges were laid. Current captain Lance Whitnall fined lesser
amount under the AFL's code of conduct for being out late in the
lead-up to the same incident and four other Blues - Shaun Grigg,
Kade Simpson, Brad Fisher and Michael Jamison - also sanctioned.
TIGERS
Andrew Krakouer - Facing charges of assault occasioning grievous
bodily harm from December last year. Matter still before the
courts.
Ray Hall - Fined by club and suspended for three weeks after
altercation in a Melbourne bar in May.
CATS
Steve Johnson - Fined and suspended by club in January after
arrest for public drunkenness and taking a week to tell club
officials.
DEMONS
Byron Pickett - Fined and suspended by club in May for missing
game after drinking alcohol the night before.
MAGPIES
Leon Davis, Shannon Cox and Chris Egan each dropped for one game
for breaching team curfew in Adelaide in May.
SAINTS
Fraser Gehrig one of six men charged this month over pub brawl
in Melbourne on eve of last year's Grand Final. Due to face court
in August.
LIONS
Simon Black and retired star Michael Voss among six men charged
over same incident as Gehrig. Due to face court in August.
Queensland government subsequently drops Voss from a good
sportsmanship campaign.
RUGBY:
WARATAHS
Kurtley Beale fined $1500 for drink-driving in January.
WESTERN FORCE
Scott Fava suspended for one game after breaching club alcohol
rules on non-training day in Cape Town in February.
SOCCER:
NEWCASTLE JETS
Richard Johnson on conditional bail while he appeals eight-month
jail sentence for drink-driving and failure to stop in Newcastle in
March.
QUEENSLAND ROAR
Coach Frank Farina fined $800 and disqualified for six months
for drink-driving offence in April.

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 19, 2007 6:21 PM

Posted by: Brickowski on June 19, 2007 4:00 PM

You da Man Bricks, keep the ba$TARDs honest.

Posted by: Robbos on June 19, 2007 6:40 PM

Posted by: Koala Bear on June 19, 2007 5:14 PM

KB, I really do hope you are right with the little Dutch master, a Trojan Poppa warhorse & of course the man who delivered us from the evils of Rugby League & AFL, the Rightalosi. There is also talk of a Mate from right under the MV nose as well.

I cannot take on the southerns, their learned leader has a way with words way beyond my means.

Apart from Shearer being an over-rated player, (one that would stay on his feet till he got to the penalty box, then sprawl himself on the turf, also currently being one of the worst commentators since SBS's flirt with Ned Zelic for WC'06), he does have a really good point. A combination of Dukes and Owen would be similar to what we play in the Footyroos, just that Owen probably has a more accurate foot that most of our attacking midfielders.

Pipps, checked out your photo's, am now convinced that I have seen you around Queanbeyan a few times last year...

Heads

Posted by: Heads on June 19, 2007 10:29 PM

I wondered how long it would take for us to start talking about the stadium issue again... where is John when you need him?? It is all a moot point.. it can not happen until the end of the exclusive period for either the Wanderers or South Melbourne et al.
Will Nicky Carle make a dent in Turkey?? He comes in as a foreigner, so he will get lots of media coverage. We will see... well I wonder if my suggestion on the flog was read by the directors of Newcastle... as I note there is now a sell on clause in the deal.. my idea.. copyright jpa! I think that Sydneys team, it is not so different from the one that one the first title... only needs a couple of additions.. and it will be in the top two... so chill. I think the Mariners may have a good season too... The Roar need to recruit right now... otherwise they will struggle and lose that potential big crowd. Sydney needs to start of on a flyer, and they will get the crowds... Real Madrid just got their eighth v a Palestine and Israel combined team... why bother! Then the screen pans to a full stadium.. thats why... nb. Telstra stadium not going to be the right size for many years... the dome already is too small if Victory get the final again

Posted by: juanpabloangel on June 20, 2007 5:45 AM

Ploise exploin?

We're not afraid of the stereotypes out here. Stereotypes are the marketers friend!

I'm with Jed on the SFC front. I've been following Victory and the Jets from v1 ... the odd flight for live football has been been a killer, but i still have my bogan dignity in tact.

Posted by: albe on June 20, 2007 7:39 AM

Posted by: Hutcho on June 19, 2007 3:01 PM

Ummm errr...Telstra Stadium is a better option than Campbelltown or Penrith...Parramatta or Homebush (whether that be the Showground, Althetics Stadium or Telstra) are interchangeable for me that much I thought I had made clear.

People who are FC fans have no right to comment on where an additional Sydney team is based as they have a vested interest in pushing such a team as far away into the outer ring as possible where it is doomed to fail and thus protect the underachieving Sydney FC franchise particularly as they are looking shaky thesedays.

I am more adversarial in my choice for locating a 2nd team...Parramatta or Homebush is optimal as it enables fiece competition for hearts and minds throughout Sydney and puts pressure on FC to shape up or play feeder club to the new, bigger, more progressive and more centrally located Sydney Wanderers Football Club!

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 20, 2007 9:04 AM

or play feeder club to the new, bigger, more progressive and more centrally located Sydney Wanderers Football Club!
Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 20, 2007 9:04 AM

C'mon Jed - I came up with that idea first! (when I suggested a few months ago that SFC be a feeder club to the Victory - but to be honest, I think the opportunity to be proactive in that respect has passed)

Heads
I'm not the one that used to sleep out all night on the banks of the river after the old Vic shut for the night! Although I did used to live in a block of flats opposite the Raiders club - you know that octagonal shaped building right on the river? Mind you, it used to be pretty rowdy around those flats whenever the Vic shut up shop!

I didn't give you a lift home once after catching an all night bus from Melbourne to the Jolimont Centre? You didn't even say thank you!

_______
pippinu
Estoy enamorado de los Victoriosos

Posted by: pippinu on June 20, 2007 11:07 AM

"PS they'll (SFC) come good."

Posted by: Koala Bear on June 19, 2007 5:14 PM

Yeah right, in the meantime Melbourne Victardry will come good 5 times more...

Why would a West Sydney based A-League team fare better than a city based one given that the majority of football fans in Sydney wont turn up top watch the game unless its the EPL or Serie A.
Whilst theirs ample evidence that Sydney's West has produced great players, where's the evidence that football fans have turned up as spectators to matches in the West over an extended period ,given the 2 million population, apart from special matches at the Olympic stadium.
There is far greater evidence over the years that in matches involving Australian players and teams the Moore park area has pulled in consistently good crowds.
Has there ever indeed been a larger crowd for matches( outside the special ones mentioned) than the 26,000 when Syd Olympic played Marconi in a Grand Final in the NSL at Parramatta stadium.
The only other crowd approaching this was probably when the Olyroos or the under 20's played a Brazilian team. about 20,000 and we wont of course mention the 9000 for the last NSL final.
Its a proven fact that a club and competition will be more succesful if new clubs can bounce of the success of estabilished clubs check the NRL,AFL for proof or Perth in Super 14's.
Lets see SFC showing the same success and potential as Melbourne Victory first before Sydney has a second team ,if we dont the Wanderers may find themselves living up to their name going from Telstra stadium to Parramatta to Penrith to Cambelltown and eventually Hornsby RSL.

Settle down son! Underachieving SFC? Let's see, champions in 1 out of 2 available seasons, best result so far for any A-League team in the ACL, players called up for the Socceroos, what the hell are you talking about?

Next time you feel the troll coming out in you at least make an attempt to be rational.

Posted by: Slippery Jim on June 20, 2007 12:58 PM

Attention Floggers.

I have just nominated FLOG for an award, don't know how much prestige it carries, don't really care. Just saw there was a lot of bollocks up there and thought that FLOG should put them all to shame.

Go to www.bloggerschoiceawards.com and search under Football, Australia or A League, it may not be there straight away as it has to be approved first, when it goes up vote hard and vote often.

Posted by: Brickowski on June 20, 2007 1:02 PM

Stacks of soccer in SMH's sister paper today, and also some other articles equally of relevance. Much of it has been covered in the FLOG already.

MV is about to have a practice game with South Melbourne. This will be the first time they have ever met, and the symbolism isn't lost on anyone. South Melbourne still see themselves as the natural recipient of a 2nd Melbourne licence. They understand that they can't put themselves forward as a Greek club or even featuring blue and white, but they are adamant that when the time comes, they will have millions of dollars in financial backing (and I believe them). Looking at it impartially, I reckon they're a shoe in. Don't be surprised if South fans actually outnumber MV fans at the practice game!

There is a wonderful piece in relation to this game (to be played at Albert Park tonight). Ian Syson writes: "As a Melbourne soccer fan, I have a terrible confession to make: I don't support the Victory...My heart lies elsewhere: with South Melbourne...". It's that sort of thing that will only help ensure that South gets that 2nd franchise.

There is another article about Carney being the natural heir to Chippers' role.

Then there's an article about the participation of aussie rules Australia-wide, and it is surprising:

" Forecast figures for 2007 say Australian football has 615,549 players compared with soccer's estimated 426,000 participants (the latter revealed by the game's chief executive and former AFL executive Ben Buckley)."

There have been increases across the board in every state and territory. Indeed, people may be surprised to hear that NSW and Queensland now have higher participation rates than South Australia, who is now in 5th place! All this has happened in the last three years.

This tells us that we should all be very wary about our long term predictions about the world game in Australia. Ironically, while aussie rules makes massive in-roads into NSW and Queensland (seemingly without the knowledge of floggers who live there), the home of aussie rules is absolutely taking the A-League by storm!! As I have always stated, this latter point is not a coincidence - the Victory's success is tied 100% with the fact that it's in the home of aussie rules.

I believe the one you are thinking of is Stan Lazaridis, not Tony Vidmar.

-----------------------------------

Posted by: Brickowski on June 19, 2007 3:49 PM

May well happen, but its a start, and if the Mariners start to get some good success, you might find that some of the local players do decide to stay. Anyway, lets just see what happens with it,'eh?

-----------------------------------

Posted by: pippinu on June 18, 2007 3:18 PM

I wouldn't say the victory starting 11 is head and shoulders above the rest, certainly one of the best, yes, but not daylight like you are talking about. FC's is pretty darn good, and are playing much better under Branko, and even my Mariners have a prettygood eleven as well, and some good players on the bench. This is just your Tard arrogance coming out again - will make it all the more sweeter when Muscy doesn't get to lift the trophy in February!!!

On your comment re crowning achievement, at the moment, yes, that has been our highlight, but, if we play well, and with a bit of luck, there is no reason why we couldn't go one better in that time - we've got some great players (Sash and Mrdja should form a great strike team, Gumps and Pondeljak, on their day, are up there with the best mids in the league, and there will be Greg Owens bombing down the wing as well...Not half bad, is it?) and a strong team ethic, so, if we don't get the raft of injuries again this season, there is no reason why we couldn't get to the finals, and perhaps even win the thing, if it comes to that.

Anyway, the main focus should be trying to get a really even, competitive league, so the finals places aren't decided until the last couple of rounds or so, and no team is certain if it is going to win their game. We don't want Sydney, Melbourne and the rest- last thing the leage needs!

Posted by: funkymarinette on June 20, 2007 1:42 PM

Posted by: EJ on June 20, 2007 12:30 PM

I don't want to come out and say it, but that didn't look right. Wasn't it Stan?
And has it officially happened yet?
Just in case we have to correct the record - we don't want to get Ben W sued!

Settle down son! Underachieving SFC? Let's see, champions in 1 out of 2 available seasons, best result so far for any A-League team in the ACL, players called up for the Socceroos, what the hell are you talking about?

Next time you feel the troll coming out in you at least make an attempt to be rational.

Posted by: Slippery Jim on June 20, 2007 12:58 PM

Sounds like I have ruffled some feathers..good!

Slippery Jim: Thats what got SFC where it is in the first place!!! resting on its laurels looking backwards at where its been not where it ought to be going (see: progressive).

Brickowski: Yeah why don't you go for the double!

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 20, 2007 1:43 PM

It has now been comfirmed Kaz Patafta is to come to MV on a one year loan. On paper this club has gone from strength to strength and it wasn't too long ago when we lost fred that people started to question if we are going to be as good as last year.My answer to that is ...its looks like we are going to be even better,definitely the team to beat again this season.

Posted by: Mick on June 20, 2007 1:50 PM

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 20, 2007 11:28 AM

Jed,
does this mean my free helicopter flights from Central Station to Aussie Stadium have been cancelled?

"Forecast figures for 2007 say Australian football has 615,549 players compared with soccer's estimated 426,000 participants (the latter revealed by the game's chief executive and former AFL executive Ben Buckley)."

Posted by: pippinu on June 20, 2007 1:08 PM

Seems like I am fighting battles on all fronts today so why not one more?

Forecast figures? the problem with forecasts is that if you input BS assumptons in the first place, you can just about forcast the precise date that hell will freeze over!

FACT: In the 12 months to April 2006, swimming was the most popular sport with 462,500 participants followed by Football with 351,100...trailing some way back after Netball was Aussie Rules with only 188,500.

Source: ABS

Thats is a MASSIVE swing Pippu of about 162,000 participants in 12 months 2007!!!! What does the forecast assume? That Victoria will take arms to strategically bomb key locations in Sydney and Brisbane to erradicate participation in Football?

There's lies, damned lies and there's statistics!

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 20, 2007 2:07 PM

the Victory's success is tied 100% with the fact that it's in the home of aussie rules.

_______
pippinu
The Big V IS Football!!

Posted by: pippinu on June 20, 2007 1:08 PM

In that the occupants of this state are finally being fed a sport that is exciting and takes some modicum of talent to play?

Posted by: Brickowski on June 20, 2007 2:11 PM

`" Forecast figures for 2007 say Australian football has 615,549 players compared with soccer's estimated 426,000 participants (the latter revealed by the game's chief executive and former AFL executive Ben Buckley)."

There have been increases across the board in every state and territory. Indeed, people may be surprised to hear that NSW and Queensland now have higher participation rates than South Australia, who is now in 5th place!'

If NSW has a higher AFL player participation rate than SA, there must be nobody playing AFL in SA. Drive around Sydney on a Saturday and see just how many AFL matches are being played - bugger all! Take Victoria out of the figures and I reckon you'd have a risible particpation rate.

Posted by: stephen on June 20, 2007 2:12 PM

"Then there's an article about the participation of aussie rules Australia-wide, and it is surprising"

Whats suprising about these figures considering they where put out by the AFL themselves.

Ever heard the story about ARF of Sherrington.

Arf was king in Sherrington.
He carried his Sherrin everywhere in the Village .
He could get all the cows,sheep and pigs he wanted just by showing his Sherrin.
Even a new cow bell for his hat new straw for his mouth and the village women flocked around him once they saw his Sherrin.

But one day Arf was sick of playing kick the Sherrin at the pond ducks or handballing it at the village donkey so he left to find other Sherrin worlds so he could do something different with it.
Of course he took his Sherrin with him tied around his neck but the funny thing was that once the village church spire faded into the distance he was confronted by a new experience a group of people playing with a round ball.
Everywhere he went he saw the round ball.
Everybody was playing it black, white, brown, off white all were kicking the ball shaped like the world although of course Arf of Sherrington didn't know that, he always believed the world was like the village pancakes flat and wobbly at the edges.
After years of searching for another Sherrin world Arf returned to Sherrington.
The villagers rejoiced and when one of them said "Arf did you find other Sherrin villages"
Arf replied 'no unfortunately once you get beyond the woods surrounding the village,its the end of the Earth and a long fall into nothingness"

Unless theres been a massive turnaround in the last 3 years Arf lives on.

Posted by: Odin on June 20, 2007 2:14 PM

Brickowski: Yeah why don't you go for the double!

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 20, 2007 1:43 PM

Again Jed, you're meaning is not very clear, what the hell do you mean go for the double?

Posted by: Brickowski on June 20, 2007 2:23 PM

Posted by: pippinu on June 20, 2007 1:08 PM

I still make the point that all these participation stats are only worth a grain of salt - because they are not mutually exclusive - there is wide overlap. And with how many other sports too - and that's the way it should be.

Auskick accounts for many participants - boys and girls - how many will go on to play footy and only footy - probably less than will go on and focus on an 'other' sport or pass-time.

In Aust, we need to broaden the base - just keep getting more people involved - and not be squabbling over the same 750,000 participants who get carved up in different ways.

----

I know previously there's been talk about how many points should be given for a win vs a draw etc, this is somewhat related:

Quick thought - given Soccer 'ladder'/'table' uses wins/draw pts and then 'goal difference' to separate teams - is this seen to encourage/reward kicking more goals or encourage/reward defending less goals through?

Reason I ask - an article via SMH sister paper - looking at the AFL % system - which often ends up rewarding the more miserely defence - where as instead if the table used 'total points for' as the only separator (after games won) - then it would encourage teams scoring.

the para-phrasing of Malcolm Blight (an attacking player and coach) "the game was supposed to be fun, and he could not think of any greater fun than kicking a goal"

Would soccer benefit if instead of goal difference, the table were split by wins and then by goals scored with no concern for goals conceded.

Another point about Australia being an AFL country and Victoria being the home of Football

ABS Stats: Attendance rates

AFL

SA = 31%
TAS = 30%
VIC = 28%
QLD = 7%
NSW = 5%

NRL

NSW = 17%
QLD = 16%
ACT 14%

FOOTBALL

NSW = 5%
SA = 4%

If I were a 'forecasting' man...I'd say Football probably outsrips AFL in QLD and NSW too.

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 20, 2007 2:33 PM

And - as a further suggestion - how about zero points for a draw!

# Posted by: Michael C on June 20, 2007 2:24 PM

u guys give pts for goals missed!!!!!

Posted by: Eddie on June 20, 2007 2:35 PM

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 20, 2007 2:07 PM

"There's lies, damned lies and there's statistics!" So true.

Posted by: Brickowski on June 20, 2007 2:11 PM
"In that the occupants of this state are finally being fed a sport that is exciting and takes some modicum of talent to play?"

Silly, silly comment - but you can feel inwardly content about it should you wish.

As Pippinu and others have tried to allow you to see - Melb is not either or - there's not the same sporting segregation as in Sydney. And noting the record AFL crowds thus far this year - it's apparent that neither is stepping on the others toes at the 'elite' level. There seems not to have been any 'choice' to be made.

Posted by: Odin on June 20, 2007 2:14 PM

Here and there Arf put an ad in a local paper asking people to meet him in a park under a tree - - - to kick a sherrin that is (not meeting in the toilets!!).

And here and there, sprang a group of other Arf's plus, gradually, intrigued locals - who previously thought the world to be a single homogeneous entity - only to discover that somewhere around the cape, over the rainbow and the other side of the doldrums there existed a wide brown land home to the galapagos sherrin.....

...and so they formed a club, then another club and another, then a league and then they played against other countries that had done the same.....

OK Mr C, a few suggestions for AFL;
1. Don't use your hands, only those without skills like goalkeepers can use hands.
2.If you kick it either side of the goal, you MISSED, no pts, no not even for trying.
3. Put a crossbar in there, make it difficult to score. Now how many pts for kicking is over the crossbar, yes nothing, you missed again.
4. Now, how many pts for kicking in the goal, yes between 2 posts & a crossbar, 6 pts, no, you only get 1 pt.

Maybe then you might get the interest o the rest of the world.

Posted by: Robbos on June 20, 2007 2:58 PM

Posted by: Eddie on June 20, 2007 2:35 PM

Finding it very hard to engage in a meaningful discussion are we?

We've done points for a miss to death. Soccer is the only game that didn't introduce a 'secondary' score to break the common deadlock - but instead gave us the penalty shoot out. Some love it, some hate it.

I made no mention of on field rules/scoring regimes - you're lack of worthwhile or even intelligent feedback - I guess is not surprising.

I gather it might again be fruitless to touch on the mighty world sport followers for 'independant' thought.

Posted by: Michael C on June 20, 2007 3:03 PM

And Although Arf had lied to his fellow villagers and he knew the truth of the outside world ,he was a dreamer and you should never destroy someones dreams should you?

Posted by: Odin on June 20, 2007 3:22 PM

Unless theres been a massive turnaround in the last 3 years Arf lives on.

Posted by: Odin on June 20, 2007 2:14 PM

Odin,
Thank you for setting the record straight. No doubt Pippinu is going thru another one of his mid-life crisis.

KB
_________________
"S" Sanity prevails

Posted by: Koala Bear on June 20, 2007 3:24 PM

Posted by: Michael C on June 20, 2007 2:46 PM

I do feel inwardly content with my statement (and outwardly too, but most blokes here probably don't want to know about that).

I've said it before and I'll say it again, WIAP and it's fans applaud and idolise people who have proven they've mastered the basic human skills of running, kicking straight & catching. Not really an adavanced skill set. you would have to agree.

Posted by: Brickowski on June 20, 2007 3:31 PM

Posted by: Robbos on June 20, 2007 2:58 PM

Okay - so you too focus on one throw away tongue in cheek comment about zero points for a draw.

You've entirely missed the point - and gone rabbiting on about code vs code which is not at all what I was on about -

the question was about whether you've (or if you've heard it talked about) ever thought about the fundamental philosophy of goals difference vs percentage vs total points/goals vs any other means of separation when on equal wins/draws points.

I've only compared what IS - i.e. % system vs goal difference - and each is a relative measure of us vs them.

Obviously - this allows in some way playing in different weather conditions on different days etc etc.

That's an obvious flaw in just granting higher position to the higher scoring team (esp in AFL with less regular ground dimensions).

- look, I just thought it was an interesting approach (maybe it's just dredging up a 10 year old article for all I know).

----

btw - in light of recent SFC and Socceroos goal keeper efforts - is your point 1 suggesting that goalkeepers are 'without skills'?

and Robbos - the harder you make it to score, the harder you make it to have fun most of the time instead of just rarely. Do you deny that the most fun of soccer is scoring a goal (unless you're one of those skill-less goalies)? Would you rather your 6 yr old play a game of soccer with 10 goals scored and all the kids having something to take away - or would you rather they learn from age 6 to be hard nosed 'defenders' and to gain enjoyment from 1-0 results? Which is more fun for more participants more of the time?

Posted by: Michael C on June 20, 2007 3:38 PM

Posted by: Brickowski on June 20, 2007 2:23 PM

Sheesh...any slower and my heart will stop beating...

You say you had better jump on the bandwagon (Syd Wanderers) and I say "sure, why not jump on the bandwagon again go two from two - SFC & Wanderers"...

Take the night to think about this post before responding, it should come to you by the morning.

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 20, 2007 3:56 PM

Pippinu I see you've been on the Guardian Blog, Championship level you reckon!! I'll give you league one at best and I'm feeling generous. If Melbourne were on par or better then the average Champioship side half your players would already be playing in the Championship.

Posted by: John on June 20, 2007 4:00 PM

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 20, 2007 1:43 PM

Actually Jed, you raised the topic of Sydney's achievments to date, I am simply pointing out the facts that you seem to have only a selective memory of.

Besides, how can we built a football 'culture' in Australia if we don't respect our history, new as it may be.

Strange how you don't rag on other more obvious targets for your scorn. I can't help but find it somewhat cynical of you to try and stir off-topic debate in such an obvious way, and really does not do you any credit.

Posted by: Slippery Jim on June 20, 2007 4:03 PM

wow - I go to pick up Beni from school and all hell has broken loose!

Firstly, great news about Kaz - I've been sitting here shaking my head in disbelief for about a month now - what a club!!! There ain't nothing more that I can say.

Secondly, I did err - I shouldn't have said participation rates, I should have said that in absolute numbers, both NSW and Queensland are now higher than South Australia in the number playing aussie rules (but still quite incredible).

Now look, I'm just referring to this article in SMH's sister paper - which is a pretty good paper - indeed is a major sponsor of MV - I simply quoted the figures because they surprised me (since I had presumed that soccer had the higher numbers). So there's no use attacking me - I'm just telling you all what I read today (not to mention that the paper says they got soccer's figures from Ben Buckley himself - don't ask me!).

Re my claim that the success of MV is tied 100% into the fact that they're from the capital of aussie rules - it may seem speculative - but I first raised this possibility some 8 months ago when Vic was expressing surprise that MV were getting over 20,000 on a regular basis (that's before the numbers really went mental).

Back then, and many supported me, I simply said that there are good cultural reasons for Melbourne getting more numbers than other cities, and part of that is our history of watching the native game in large numbers. Why should that matter?
1. We are used to purchasing seasons tickets
2. We are now used to how the Dome works
3. We have a strong culture of attending football live
4. MV has used the exact same marketing techniques and packages as are used by all the Melbourne AFL clubs
5. Many AFL followers love the idea of going to the Dome during the summer to watch the Victory (including many AFL players themselves!).
6. As a consequence, they are simply miles ahead of anyone else in Australia in this area alone.

You will note that MV didn't join in with the TeaMelbourne concept. They don't need to, but one of the reasons they gave was that they didn't wish to align themselves to one aussie rules club, because they recognise that at least half of their members and spectators are also avid footy followers from all clubs. They have tapped into this in a brilliant way - something that neither the Roar or SFC may be able to do with the NRL fans (I don't know).

Lastly, at least in my mind, growing up in Melbourne it was never an issue switching from one game to the other, or playing them both during the week - it simply was never an issue. You played them, you enjoyed them both, and the question of which was better never even entered your mind (like it seems to here a lot). Sure, you can find plenty of meatheads at either end of the spectrum, but ultimately, both games involve kicking a ball (in a way that the rugby codes do not). So you can bet that all the socceroos who grew up in Melbourne, like Dukes, can all kick the oval ball because they would have grown up doing it! (they would have enjoyed it and it would never impacted on their ability with the round ball)

_______
pippinu
The Big V IS FOOTBALL!!

Posted by: pippinu on June 20, 2007 4:10 PM

As Pippinu and others have tried to allow you to see - Melb is not either or - there's not the same sporting segregation as in Sydney.

Mr. C. Comrade,
Not true; you just don't get it..! Sydney folk over lap in code participation and attendances to the point, that Victorians can only dream of.

Yes we do not break attendance records like Melbourne, but that is because we are more diverse than Victoria.

Let me remind you that you yourself have admitted of only going to one soccer match in your life and Pippinu has also admitted that he has not attended a soccer match in Melbourne (except Socceroos) since he stop playing junior football.

There's a greater cross code participation in Sydney that you will never understand.

Just look at the Rugby codes and the cross code participation going on there. Too many to name but Matt Rogers for one etc. So don't be so smug to just repeat what Pippinu has to say about anything.

KB
_______________________
"D" stands for Sydney Diversity

Posted by: Koala Bear on June 20, 2007 4:11 PM

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 20, 2007 2:33 PM

at what level are these attendance rates calculated?

Is it 'paid attendance' at 'elite' comps, estimated attendance across all levels?

Anyway - I'm wondering about your point. Given that the NSW figure for 'Football' is equal to the NSW figure for 'AFL'.

QLD - NRL is well ahead - well, not surprising, NRL season is a little longer and there are 2 teams. Still an average figure relative to the 'more mature' states with more teams - thus QLD is still a huge potential growth state - let's say there's another 12% ready to go to whom ever is willing/able to grasp it.

I don't know what the problem is in NSW. Niether Football nor NRL get the results they should - given all the rationale.

We do know from Sweeney reports that SA, WA and Tas are apparently the 'strong(est)holds' of AFL. I guess this supports that.

----

nice numbers - just don't know what they really mean.

----

as indicated the other day - AFL have had 3 of best 5 ever attended rounds this season. The avg per game attendance around 36K +, near to on a par with the record '98 season and even with games at Cararra, Darwin and Canberra. Yep, it's struggling in the face of the MVFC incursion into Victoria.
It must really annoy some people that Victoria can sustain the most supported and soon to be unequalled A-League franchise - whilst not denting the 'domestic indigenous' code. Whereas in Sydney - it seems a given that NRL and FFA will be locked in a battle akin to engaging in a land war in Asia (a Princess Bride reference there - what a great movie).

Posted by: Michael C on June 20, 2007 4:14 PM

Posted by: Odin on June 20, 2007 3:22 PM

Ah, yes, and the world of tomorrow belongs to the dreamers of today - for without they, there'd be no innovation or change. Henry Ford might have been told "YOu're Dreamin'", Galileo might've been told "You're blasphemin'" and Arf might be told "You've got rocks in y'r 'ead"

Posted by: Brickowski on June 20, 2007 3:31 PM

I'm not sure what we define as 'advanced skills'.

Soccer, a game of kicking and running, oh, and heading. At it's simplest. But, is that really the point - of any point?

Having noted how a 2 yr old can more readily kick a ball along the ground than he can kick a 'punt'. A 3 yr old can more readily 'throw' the ball than he can 'handpass' it.
Let alone teachin' the kid to swing a golf club, tennis racquet or bowl a cricket ball.

It's got a bit more to do with performing those skills well under the pressure of a contest. Which is why we don't care one bit about 'uncontested possession' in the back half - anyone can do that.

Posted by: Michael C on June 20, 2007 4:26 PM

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 20, 2007 3:56 PM

Jed,

I was simply getting you to re-phrase the sentence you already posted. Since you're spelling and grammar are usually so atrocious I thought I would seek clarification before I replied to your snide taunts.

Now, since I have been a member of Sydney FC since day 1, I hardly think I can be considered a 'bandwagonner' What else have you got, boges?

Posted by: Brickowski on June 20, 2007 4:26 PM

Posted by: Michael C on June 20, 2007 4:26 PM

By advanced skills I mean the ability to run with a ball, only controlled by the foot, at or around one, sometimes 2 or 3 or more defenders and then kick with control at a small target, now that's what I call a skill. Sure a contested mark is slightly more advanced than just catching but it's not a great skill. Work out where the ball is going to come down and be the first person to it, any adult should be able to do that.

Posted by: Brickowski on June 20, 2007 4:52 PM

Oh so much anger.
Sydney v West Sydney
Sydney v Melbourne
A-league v Championship or 1st division
Melbourne v well no-one who can compete with Melbourne.
And finally Football v WAIP, unfortunately no contest here as Odin clearly shows.

Posted by: Robbos on June 20, 2007 4:54 PM

Posted by: Koala Bear on June 20, 2007 4:11 PM

so - let me get this right,

what you're saying basically is that there's only about 85,000 greater Sydney folk who attend anything - and it's they who actually attended EVERYTHING???? (are they the only ones with disposable income left after trying to pay the mortgage or rent?)

Just seeing all the '3 pts for a field goal is too many - make it 1' just goes to show how successfully cross-polinated that demographic is. Maybe there is just a bunch of predominantly theatre supporters of 'Rugby...whatever' who still struggle to work out just what game is going on out on the polo pitch......hrrmmm, pass me another Chardie will you.....off to Bowral for the weekend to the country estate....

Posted by: pippinu on June 20, 2007 4:10 PM

Melb Storm used to aim at AFL members with the old '3 game' membership that invited the AFL fans to watch Storm when their AFL team was 'out of town'. That worked a treat. People came, they snored, they retreated - even TD didn't do the trick - - would it now, further down the track that people are happier with it as a venue? Is Greg Inglis a bigger draw card than Bai, or Lazarus, Kearney or the poor fellow that lost his leg to a motor bike.

Posted by: Michael C on June 20, 2007 5:01 PM

and Robbos - the harder you make it to score, the harder you make it to have fun most of the time instead of just rarely. Do you deny that the most fun of soccer is scoring a goal (unless you're one of those skill-less goalies)? Would you rather your 6 yr old play a game of soccer with 10 goals scored and all the kids having something to take away - or would you rather they learn from age 6 to be hard nosed 'defenders' and to gain enjoyment from 1-0 results? Which is more fun for more participants more of the time?
Posted by: Michael C on June 20, 2007 3:38 PM

Mr C,
Again you have misunderstood Soccer. At junior level let's say under 6yrs you score a heap of goals at that level; and juniors always will; as I did when I first started to kick the round ball, but as you grow with the game you start to enjoy the structure more than the act of one super kid scoring 6 goals in a game.

The inelegance starts to kick in and team work start to develop and working as a unit starts to take over as you grow, you then can't get enough of practicing ball control exercises.

Then if you ever reach the elite level you thirst for the team to run like a well oiled Porsche with style and a winning culture.

That's what makes a champion team at the end of the season. If all of your games are 2 nil or 1 nil wins and some 0-0 draws it does not matter as long as you are champions or you have a good season.

And that is what the World Game is all about...I know you don't want to understand that, but it is not just an accident that it is the World Game.

BTW Comrade, I enjoy all forms of football, AFL a lot etc. but the round ball most of all and what it has to offer on the world stage.

KB
__________________________
"K" stands for Football is King.
For me anyway..

Posted by: Koala Bear on June 20, 2007 5:17 PM

Ha ha John - good to see you again - you would understand all about stirring up the hornet's nest!

But I honestly believe that Melbourne Victory would have no concerns about playing any Champions League side - that's all I said - I didn't say it was a lay down misere! Quite simply, they would not be out of their depth.

I stand by that comment - and God I wish we could one day put it to the test.

_______
pippinu
Estoy enamorado de los Victoriosos

Posted by: pippinu on June 20, 2007 5:30 PM

It was good while you were gone Michael C, but can you do the rest of us REAL FOOTBALL fans a favour and fark off to another forum if you're gonna constantly spout your incessant trife re: AFL, AFL tactics, comparisons between AFL, WHy AFL is the greatest ever game in the history of the world, and why FOOTBALL is the crap, why it should change the rules bla bla bla. As far as I can ascertain you don't enjoy assoc. football, so why do you bother to come to a blog which is made for fans of the round ball game and continully chip away with your snide comments? I think I'm not the only one here who thinks the same way. And just to clear something up, no matter what you are any AFL head says, AFL might be the game for WA

Posted by: BPR on June 20, 2007 5:44 PM

People! Really! Enough of the bickering! Having to read through todays comments to see if there is anything football related in here is quite painful. We are only weeks out from a big tournament, there are transfers happening all over the world (or lack of for SFC), surely there must me news of practice matches coming up (Is SFC touring the world similar to MV?), yet on the FLOG you lot are arguing about Football vs WIAP vs Bumball. Just leave it as all codes exist, they don't have to compete (as we are made to believe) as a lot of us support several sports, and can we get back to the topic of football.

Heads.

Posted by: Heads on June 20, 2007 5:47 PM

Putting aside all the enmity for a moment. I just caught the tail-end of Ten's sports report. I have to say I'm disgusted that a freakin' horse race in england got about 3 minutes reportage, including footage, while the retirement of ex-Socceroos captain and recent Newcastle Jet Paul Okon garnered one sentence at the end of that bobble-head tim webster's end of segment ramblings.

Posted by: Brickowski on June 20, 2007 5:55 PM

John,

From memory the majority of Shearers goals were from the penalty spot. Most monkeys can bang it in from there.
I suppose my dislike for Alan also stems from a game I was at at Upton Park in 2000. He took a dive, where there was clearly no contact, right in front of where I was sitting (actually don't think the seat got any use except from at half time). He got abused from the crowd, as expected, and I think he may even have picked up a card from it, but I may be wrong as my memory is slightly alcohol distorted from that day.

Heads

Posted by: Heads on June 20, 2007 5:58 PM

This thread is starting to go all over the shop, so I will try to bring some order in my own impartial and intelligent manner.

Odin
thanks for the links - the AFL numbers tally with what I quoted - so it's the soccer numbers that are looking quite at odds. Your links are showing 1.2 million and The Age, which reckon they got their numbers from Ben Buckley, was around 500,000. A massive disparity! I am starting to wonder whether The Age is showing actual registrations whereas your numbers are people filling in surveys saying, yeah, I have a kick at my local ground every weekend (a la Vicentin).

Bricks
I'm not going to argue that to control the round ball in match conditions at the highest level takes something special - but anyone can join in for a social game of soccer or touch footy (hell, I can!) - but they can't necessarily join in to play a social game of aussie rules.

Why? Because people unaccustomed to the oval ball simply can't kick it, or handball it or bounce it, or judge a 50 metre kick in the air and take it cleanly in the hands - if they can't do all that - they can't do it if someone is applying a modicum of pressure - and it's the latter that raises the degree of difficult to well, well past just running and catching. And we don't catch it either!

You just have to look at your average rugby player - they can't kick a footy over a jam tin!

KB
I haven't seen a game in Melbourne for over 20 years (that I can recall) but I have seen a fair few in other parts of Australia (notably in Sydney, Queanbeyan and Canberra).

Melb Storm used to aim at AFL members with the old '3 game' membership that invited the AFL fans to watch Storm when their AFL team was 'out of town'. That worked a treat. People came, they snored, they retreated - even TD didn't do the trick - - would it now, further down the track that people are happier with it as a venue? Is Greg Inglis a bigger draw card than Bai, or Lazarus, Kearney or the poor fellow that lost his leg to a motor bike.
Posted by: Michael C on June 20, 2007 5:01 PM

Mr C, I think the other guy was one of the 3 tenors.

So isn't this paragraph of yours contradictory to Melburnians don't believe in segregation in football of any code.

Tell me, when you pick up a Melb. newspaper you have equal written pieces on RL, RU, Soccer and AFL; so is this what you are telling me?

85,000 people attending football in one week of footy in NSW.

Well it all depends who is in town and what football you are talking about SoO, ACL Soccer and a Swans game or a Rugby Union test with the All Blacks all in one week. Oh maybe a touring English Lions RL team thrown into the mix.

Quite frankly I don't know. But I will tell you one thing all will get representation in the Sydney Papers in some form or another.

But, you are right about one thing Sydney is a bloody expensive town to live in and that is why I enjoy The Gold Coast so much (Pigs Arse).

KB
______________________________
"GC" Beautiful one day over-rated the next.

PS. Take me back home to Sydney. I told my wife when I die I want to be cremated and my ashes placed on the penalty spot at the Paddington end of SFS.

Her reply was that can be arranged sooner than you think. But I would miss Burt too much.

Posted by: Koala Bear on June 20, 2007 6:15 PM

Actually, what do floggers think about MV (or even SFC or AU) taking on your average Championship side? Would we be out of our depth? I simply can't see it that way. To be honest, at the moment, I can't see too many Championship players getting a game with the Victory.

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 20, 2007 6:25 PM

Posted by: Eddie on June 20, 2007 2:35 PM

Eddie,
you made a very good point.
What odds are the Socceroos winning the NAC in Asia?

KB

Posted by: Koala Bear on June 20, 2007 6:36 PM

Posted by: pippinu on June 20, 2007 6:00 PM

I'm not going to argue that to control the round ball in match conditions at the highest level takes something special - but anyone can join in for a social game of soccer or touch footy (hell, I can!) - but they can't necessarily join in to play a social game of aussie rules.

While generally I enjoy your posts & other times I under you are provoking. But the comment above, takes the cake Pippinu, for all your knowledge on football you are just a one eyed WIAP fan. How sad.

Posted by: Robbos on June 20, 2007 6:57 PM

You are correct Heads, so much football to discuss.

A huge loss to both Newcastle & to the A-League is Okon's retirement. We really missed the boat to promote this guy as one our greatest socceroos playing in the A-League.
I hope he enjoys retirement, he was a great player who had injuries at the wrong time.

Posted by: Robbos on June 20, 2007 7:04 PM

Ben Willing: Yes there is plenty of actual, real, football to discuss. I hear murmurs that Qld Roar have all but signed Brazilian midfielder, Marcinho. Apparently the signing all depends on whether a current player, Seo, can become a naturlised Australian (because Qld are otherwise on their limit of foreign players). Farina is also chasing Stephen Laybutt's signature. Finally I'm starting to hear rumours (albeit only rumours and nothing more substantial) about Sydney FC acquiring some players. Don't get too excited though it's no marquee or household name - the player in question is an "old-school" centre forward, with a bit of pace, who played under Branko in the NSL. I won't say anything more until I hear something more concrete ...

Posted by: Ben Willing on June 20, 2007 7:14 PM

Robbos
What are you so shocked about? You know I have a squashed-cat background. That's the beautiful part of MV - it goes out of its way to welcome squashed-cat enthusiasts to the beautiful game. This is the synergy that will ensure MV becomes Australia's first super club.

Otherwise, I agree that we should be talking about the Asian cup.

There's 19 days to go, so I best move on to Australia's most likely opponent in the quarters (assuming both Japan and us top our respective groups).

_______
pippinu
The Big V IS Football!!

Posted by: pippinu on June 20, 2007 8:25 PM

Actually, before I move on to the Asian cup, there was one point that was made that I disagree with (and I am sure would offend at least one of our number).

A couple of people were of the view that goalkeepers were not skillful, or words to that effect. Now hopefully people were just stirring the pot a bit and weren't serious. Afterall, for about the last 15 games the Socceroos have played in, we appear to have played each and every one of them with a handicap of one goal, by absolutely gifting the opposition one goal per game, normally through the poor efforts of our goalkeepers.

Let us be very clear, we can have the very best 10 outfielders we can muster, but if we conintue with this handicap system (self imposed) we aren't moving in a hurry from where we are in the 40s in the world rankings.

On the positive side, let us all recall that one brilliant save, perhaps the best we are ever likely to see, got us into the 2006 WC. Who will ever forget that it was a raised glove rising to meet the ball, when under normal circumstances, your average goal keeper would never have lifted that glove to that exact spot above his diving body in mid air.

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 20, 2007 9:15 PM

Assuming that both Australia and Japan finish atop their respective groups, Australia will meet one of either Qatar (ranked 83), UAE (91) or Vietnam (140).

My personal selection of the above 3 is the UAE, despite the rankings, just on the basis of most recent form. I think we can dismiss Vietnam outright, who we can place alongside Malaysia as having zero chance of progressing to the next round (with the chances of both Thailand and Indonesia being on slightly greater).

So let's begin this next chapter of our review of the teams of most interest to us by looking at Qatar.

Qatar is actually 9th on the Asian Cup all-time table with 4 wins, 8 draws, and 7 losses. They hosted the cup in 1988 but I don't think they made it to the final 4. If my memory serves me well, around this time Qatar also hosted an under-age world cup, and they actually made the final 4. They were one of the first of the smaller gulf nations to bring in foreign coaches and made very rapid progress during the 80s from absolutely nowhere.

In the 2004 Asian cup they lost to Indonesia 1-2, drew with Bahrain 1-1 and lost to host nation China 0-1. Certainly nothing to write home about.

Later that year they hosted and actually won the Gulf cup, defeating many teams we are likely to get to know: drew with the UAE 2-2; drew with Iraq 3-3; def Oman 2-1; def Kuwait 2-0 and then defeated Oman in the final on penalties after it ended 1-1.

In their last 41 games they have won 15, drawn 13 and lost 12, scoring 66 goals (ave. of almost 1.4 per game) and conceding 49.

Qatar was in a group with Uzbekistan, Hong Kong and Bangladesh - in other words, they were always going to qualify. Qatar actually topped the group, sharing the spoils with the Uzbekis in their two games with a win apiece.

In the meantime, Qatar also hosted and won the Asian games.

Qatar play 4-4-2 and interestingly, their two highest scorers in the qualifiers were their two wingers, Adel Lamy and Hussain Yasser with 3 goals each. The latter looks like one to watch, he's only 23 but has already spent a year with Man City and has also spent time in the Belgian league.

Qatar also have a Uruguayan-born striker, Sebastian Soria. He only recently became naturalised and helped Qatar win the Asian games by scoring 4 goals in the tournament.

Finally, let's not forget that Qatar has last year's AFC player of the year, named at the age of 18, Khalfan Ibrahim, who plays as a central midfielder (also a bit of a goal scorer).

It's worth remembering that Qatar have a few high profile foreign players in their domestic league and attract some pretty good coaches. There's a fair bit there to like about Qatar - I hope the UAE live up to this when I look at them next (damn, I hate it when I tip before I consider things carefully!)

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 20, 2007 9:50 PM

Posted by: BPR on June 20, 2007 5:44 PM

I never made it code vs code - read back you fark'edd - note the first person to stir the barrel was in fact :Posted by: Eddie on June 20, 2007 2:35 PM - who jumped straight down the 'points for missing path' for no reason at all. Followed quickly by : Posted by: Robbos on June 20, 2007 2:58 PM
I actually think there are some floggers who enjoy it - and then after their little bit of fun on an otherwise quiet arvo - get back to the real stuff.

And note - no matter how I tried, I don't think I got one single response to the original question. Perhaps you might do the favour??

Posted by: Koala Bear on June 20, 2007 6:15 PM

The paragraph - no, not at all - there's no 'segregation' - however, there's choice re NRL & Storm - it's fine for people to attend and reject, or weigh up loyalties and prioritise.

Melb papers overrepresent Melb Storm (traditionally) - well, the News Ltd one with its vested interest. Soccer gets reasonable coverage, but ManUtd gives MVFC a run for it's money. Collingwood players anywhere on the street after dark get way too much coverage - no argument there.

But - there is no 'equality', nor should there, the paper has to cater for 10 vic wiap teams, one A-League, one-NRL, no RU team, a bit of international stuff and Lee Freedman (you do the maths on sq.inches).....segways into....

Posted by: Brickowski on June 20, 2007 5:55 PM

Reality though is that the horse winning in England is very big and very current news. Paul Okon is hardly remembered by a lot of non-soccer folk - sad to say - I'd remember Paul Wade ahead of him. And he's retired, not from the Socceroos (as Viduka almost did), but from the A-League - and, as everyone knows - the A-League is entirely 'peopled' by 1 team town teams, and as such, it doesn't demand much more than a mention. However - had Okon kicked a critical goal in a WC qualifier win, such as Aloisi, then you'd expect a replay of that over the closing credits.

Posted by: Brickowski on June 20, 2007 4:52 PM

What you described as a contested mark forgot one or more things - the one or more people 'contesting' that mark, coming from who knows where at various speeds, sizes, and intent (to mark or spoil). You can simplify anything should you wish.

That's why, dribbling a spherical ball on a perfectly flat pitch can be described as purely mundane - should one wish to. I know it isn't. I struggle to get around witches hats.

Kicking a sherrin running at full tilt from 50 out on a 45 angle with a wouldbe tackler on your heels, a wouldbe smotherer coming at you and a cross wind that'll blow the ball of course the moment it leaves your grasp, let alone the impact on the flight of the ball of the boot, let alone the ability to gain timing in the kick etc etc. Hmm, and the need to not have anyone touch it on the way through, not even a finger tip - oh, yeah, forgot that, only the goalie can reach for the sky so to speak.

It's all skill, pressure, ability etc. But you can demean if you wish. Better or worse - I prefer to just think 'different skills'. However, what Pip said about Rugby players and jam tins certainly applies - well, in Aust anyway. Steyn and Wilkinson show some ability.

Posted by: Michael C on June 20, 2007 10:18 PM

Bricks... Catching a ball is a skill... when related to AFL players and goalkeepers. I would like to see how many shots would get stopped if you put Henry or El Zorro, just for you Pippu... in goal... Just watch goals from free kicks by goalies such as Chilavert and Ceni in South America... not all are useless outside the box... but they are usually a bit chubby.. perhaps this is an opening for your average rugby fan

Posted by: juanpabloangel on June 20, 2007 10:50 PM

It's good to know that rumours I start on the Flog can make it all the way to the ears of the great Diego (ok, maybe that isn't how it worked).

Which translated is ... Maradona advises the Villareal owned playmaker Riquelme "If you can't stay with Boca, go to the San Paolo (Napoli)" It will cost about 10M Euro to acquire him.

Hope he listens to him. I'm not a Napoli fan but it is going to be great to have them back in Serie A and it's just such a perfect fit. Fabrizzio Miccoli (under contract to Juve and back in Italy) is also saying that if Juve don't want him he'd love to play for Napoli. Could be a fantastic combo. Cheech, am I getting your hopes up?

Victory coach Ernie Merrick was alerted to Patafta's availability thanks to a chance meeting with the 18-year-old's girlfriend while watching one of Sydney FC's Asian Champions League games at Aussie Stadium in March.

"I went and got my ticket and sat down at the game, and I sat next to this very attractive young girl and her parents," Merrick told AAP.

"We got chatting and this young girl - it turns out she's Kaz's girlfriend and now his agent."

I say he just wants to hold his position on the team and not let Dukes into the starting side! :)

Heads

Posted by: Heads on June 21, 2007 12:00 AM

Posted by: BPR on June 20, 2007 5:44 PM

Amen Brother.

Posted by: Brickowski on June 21, 2007 8:52 AM

ROME, June 20 AFP - Inter Milan were today accused of presenting false accounts before the start of the 2005-06 season, but the title they won that season was not believed to be at risk. Inter, together with city rivals AC Milan, are being investigated for alleged false accounting between 2003 and 2005.

Bloody Northeners! You can only trust them as far as you can throw them!

Has everyone read how Ernie stumbled across the fact that Kaz was potentially available? By running into his girlfriend at an SFC vs Urawa game?!

What a bizarre story! I say that because for months I was gasbagging about Kaz, thinking, he's 18 with a youth team, so a short term loan deal is always a possibility in those circumstances (because the club will be happy to see him playing senior gamses somewhere - you don't want your best 18 year olds playing youth games only). So surely, at some stage SFC enquired about such a possibility? Don't tell me they never even asked the question?!

C'mon guys - this is starting to get farcical! This is starting to sound about as professional as the old NSL days!

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 21, 2007 9:11 AM

Some real football:

MVFC 5 SMFC 1.
Crowd est. 5-7K.

quote from the Melb Age:

"Spectators in long queues waited to get in after the kick-off as officials of aspiring A-League club South, anxious to ensure there was no trouble, directed security guards to check fans on the way in.

They must have missed more than a few however, as several flares were ignited by fans in the Melbourne Victory end when the game got underway. One was thrown with particular stupidity into the goalmouth after Thompson's spectacular goal, narrowly missing South Melbourne player Andrew Bourakis as he lay on the ground."

As it is, Andrew Bourakis was on SEN this morning - the flare didn't 'narrowly miss him'. It actually struck him on the back of the head. He then, shortly after hit the deck - apparently commically - and claimed on radio this morning that he just needed a breather.

Apparently the flares were MVFC supporters.
The fight was apparently amongst SMFC supporters?? Go figure. Don't expect to see them anywhere near the A-League.

Bourakis on the radio this morning was given a chance to say that flares are not on - but he echoed the sentiment of some on the flog - that they add to the atmosphere.

Funny that at TD, Kev Muscat has a taped clip that gets shown on the bigscreen imploring people not to bring in or light flares.

btw - Bourakis tried to claim it was just that the supporters are passionate. My editorial : That's fine, be passionate - but if they truely have pride in their club, then these supporters have not shown their club any respect, and have done it a dis-service.

btw - you'll be pleased to know that the News LTd Melb paper didn't describe it as a 'riot', but rather a crowd 'fracas'.

Apparently up to 12 flares lit, 14 people ejected (6 for flares) and 1 crowd controller injured and assaulted. Mounted police were called in.

Funny thing is now that some people are ringing MElb radio claiming a beat up, and that it shouldn't be talked about. Reality is, in Melb, we talk too much about B.Cousins, C.Tarrant etc, so, a crowd 'fracas' is not going to be swept under the carpet.

Posted by: Michael C on June 21, 2007 9:12 AM

Posted by: pippinu on June 20, 2007 6:00 PM

"anyone can join in for a social game of soccer or touch footy (hell, I can!) - but they can't necessarily join in to play a social game of aussie rules."

Seriously, what are you on about here??? It is not hard to kick an oval ball or bounce it. Face it, all you need to be good at it is be about 6ft tall.

Posted by: cheech on June 21, 2007 9:18 AM

Great new article by Les on TWG. I think he is a bit soft on Carle on "that" incident - but otherwise, everything else that he has to say is spot on and thought provoking.

By the way, he mentions a letter that Frank Lowy received from a punter saying that Carle should be sacked from the squad, etc. The letter writer sounds so cranky - I was wondering whether it was our very own KB!! :]

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 21, 2007 9:19 AM

Posted by: Slippery Jim on June 20, 2007 4:03 PM

I am not angling for credit off anyone here...there is probably not one person I have not come to grief with here but yet I have had civilised discussion with each and every one on a range of other topics.

The myopia that manifests itself in Sydney where every person denounces the individual located immediately west of their own person is sickening...I make no apologise for lambasting Sydney FC's mediocrity or the people who pretend to be about Football who only want to allow a second A-League team if it locates itself so far from their market that its failure will be guaranteed and their own interests maintained.

----

"What else have you got, boges?"

Posted by: Brickowski on June 20, 2007 4:26 PM

Your sister's phone number.

----

OKON:

Sorry to see him go, I cannot but help think that he could have done so much more with his career if he had settled for a lesser Club than the ones he infrequently got game time at.

I think the Jets can still overcome the loss but with Carle gone its a pretty big double whammy. Thank goodness for those 3 South Americans, I hope they all are the goods.

Melbourne proved though even a 1/3 success rate is worth the effort.

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 21, 2007 9:31 AM

Posted by: pippinu on June 20, 2007 9:50 PM

I probably wouldn't discount Vietnam so quickly. Listening to the most recent Match Night Asia, can't remember who recommended this, but thank you, it's an absolutley fantastic program (latest episode, podcast feed). There's an interview with the Vietnamese National Coach, Alfred Riedal (sp?) he mentions that Hanoi has the most oppressive conditions, in terms of humidity, of all of the host cities and that the team although young, had mostly been playing together for the last three years. Also the Vietnamese fans are totally dedicated, how many of us would offer Arnie a kidney if he needed one? I admit their chances are not great but on the home turf they may just sneak into the second round.

Excellent, you should probably give her a call then, she has lost the directions to your trailer park.

Posted by: Michael C on June 21, 2007 9:12 AM

Congratulations Michael!! You made it 90% of the way through a post before you mentioned WIAP, just a little bit further and your sentiments may be welcomed on a Football blog.

Posted by: Brickowski on June 21, 2007 10:35 AM

A report on last nights game at Bob jane stadium.

Ljubo Milicevic, what a find!! This guy absolutely dominated! Very composed and classy, has definitely brough another dimension to the club. Melbourne where really at a canter for the whole match, south never really looked in the encounter, even though they tried their hearts out. There where a few VIS trialists, one of which scored the last goal, only a few first teamers but a fantastic result, 5 - 1, I was hoping it was going to be a shelacking, and my prayers where answered.

There where about 6 flares thrown, one of which missed the south player by about 1 meter, but he took a dive to try and milk something, it was pretty funny actually. I was sitting in the main grandstand, so had a clear view of the whole debacle. The flares came out of the Victory supporters end, but that was the most they did. The Farcas was actually between two groups of south supporters, one known as the HELLAS cheer squad, who frequent the tennis, the other where hardcore south supporters. It all unfolded at the famous clarendon end.

All in all, a fantstic result for football in melbourne and the a-league. MVFC discgrace south at their home ground, and more importantly, the crowd farcas will scare the bejesus out of the FFA and force them to re-think letting south anywhere near the a-league. The reporting is actually a huge beat up on what happened but it serves its purpose in this case. I hope it makes the 6pm news tonight around the country, I hope frank lowy and ben buckley are watching.

Posted by: Fred on June 21, 2007 10:43 AM

Hey the Dutch won a penalty shootouts - waits for hell to freeze over.

Dutch U21 team beats England 13-12 on penalties after 1-1 in regular time in the Euro U21 semis!

Looks like there was another group involved!!! This just keeps on gettings better!!!

From the victory forum

- The fight was strictly between Hellas and Knights fans.

- Knights fans came and stood near the MVFC fans, realised they were hopelessly outnumbered, and took on either the Clarendon Corner/Gate 1 fans, and it flared up 'behind' the embankment.

- Some security chased a fan into the Social Club in front of everyone

The fan getting chased was gold, there was 1 x 16 year old kid vs 6 x fat security guards on the clarendon end.

Posted by: fred on June 21, 2007 10:51 AM

Posted by: Vicentin on June 20, 2007 11:13 PM

Wasn't the problem with Riquelme that he constantly wanted to go back to Argentina during the European season. I believe Villareal even allowed him to go back several times a season, told him he didn't have to train if he didn;t want to, and at one stage flew his mates out from Argentina at the club's cost.

Would a European club really want him if this is the way he's going to act?

Posted by: Brickowski on June 21, 2007 11:03 AM

Posted by: Brickowski on June 21, 2007 10:35 AM

Cheers Brick, I thought I'd just get in early that it's not unreasonable for the incident to be newsworthy. That was all.

Posted by: Fred on June 21, 2007 10:43 AM

Andrew Bourakis WAS interviewed live on SEN this morning.

HE WAS struck by the flare. He said so himself. I choose to believe him.

On radio this morning the SMFC supporters are squarely blaming MVFC for the flares. It's reported there were about 12 lit. And 6 ejected re. flares. And as you indicated, the MVFC supporters are claiming the 'fight' was internal to SMFC supporters. (passion for the game or 'gang politics'?)

Various people have stated that the flare missed Bourakis - including yourself - so that shows that not every first hand account is entirely accurate. He definitely owned up to being struck, but claims it was nothing serious.

The reporting really isn't a beat up given that a player was struck by a flare - that makes it a pretty significant event - certainly more so than a couple of boofheads in the crowd throwing a couple.

Will this not just ward off SMFC's bid into the A-League? or perhaps scare off for the time being the prospect of 2 team towns? Local derbies sound great in theory, but can/will the FFA 'trust' the minority of supporters to behave? Does it not matter in the grand scheme?

btw - entry was apparently free? is that correct?

ps. - I still just don't see this thing about flares. What is the point? It's dangerous (destroyed a dozen seats at MCG last year)and, as with rowdy ODI cricket fans throwing rubbish into the air on Mexican Waves - it's a crowd environment that I would never subject my kids to. (that said, I prefer also to take them to less well attended wiap games too - maybe I'm too overprotective).

Posted by: Michael C on June 21, 2007 11:05 AM

Fred
thanks for a great match report - I thought you might have been pleased with the crowd trouble amongst the Hellas supporters! You're not a political adviser in real life?!

djebella
fair call on Vietnam - in truth, all 4 host nations will be revelling in the opressive conditions, and one can't underestimate the importance of that. I still see Thailand and Indonesia as the the host nations with the most chance of causing a boilover - but I still think the chances of any host nation making it to the next round are exceedingly slim.

Hey Cheech - how did you know I was exactly 6 foot tall! Apart from Cannavaro, are there any other great CBs of the modern era who are shorter than 6ft?
_______
pippinu
17 days to go!

Posted by: pippinu on June 21, 2007 11:10 AM

The Melbourne - South incident brings up a salient point. How will the FFA deal with derbies?

I've seen first hand a bit of tension in the F3 derby between Sydney and ccm, it got very close to fists-a-flyin' during our 3-1 loss there in v2, the security reaction was very slow and undermanned.

This will get worse IMO for a game between 2 Melbourne or 2 Sydney clubs, will the cost of extra security/police be prohibitive? Will we need to 'cage' the away supporters for these matches.

All things for the FFA to consider while they're thinking about adding 2nd teams to cities, and more reason that expansion will probably go to virgin territories.

Posted by: Brickowski on June 21, 2007 11:20 AM

Bloody hell! Not only has Grella chosen Torino over Palermo, but Torino has even signed Palermo's captain, Corini.

Bloody Northerners!

I have to admit, if I were to take Beni to a Vics game, I'd want to feel confident that it was a safe environment for him (but I wouldn't be worried about myself).

Ten years ago, living in Canberra, where fireworks are legal over the Queen's birthday weekend, some kids blew up my letterbox to smithereens - and I'm still pissed off about it!
_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 21, 2007 11:21 AM

The new signings or possible signings at the Roar confirm that this season will be tighter than ever.Frank Farina will deliver this season, after one and a half years of rapid fire carpet laying.
SFC will sign players, Branko knows hes not got enough umph in the squad to counteract Victory and indeed the rest of the A-League clubs and he has to show Fossie that all their theoretical verbal meanderings from the World Game weren't just "Empty vessels make the most noise" rhetoric.

Okon the man who never was,too European and sophisticated for the Aussie football public in his heyday .
Better than Kewell, yes if injuries at his prime hadn't taken their toll and upset the rythm of his career.

Good to see the SM Hellas vs Victory disturbances reported as a "fracas" maybe there is hope yet from the days when a fan, who after lighting his cigarette and threw the match on the pitch, was reported in the media as " Hooligan Soccer fans rip up trees and toss them on the pitch killing the referee eight players and a women 4 kms away knitting a scarf for her grandson to attend a Collingwood vs Carlton match this Saturday.

Posted by: Odin on June 21, 2007 11:23 AM

Michael C on June 21, 2007 11:05 AM

I heard him live as well, he did say that it grazed him, from where i was sitting, it looked like it flew staraigh past him, he kept walking and realised it was a flare and then fell over. MV fans where definitely the flare throwers, no argument there. The fight was between south supporters, and now apparently melbourne knights supporters as well. Entry was free.

Ramification? will it hurt a south bid? probably. Will it stop 2 team towns, i doubt it.

Posted by: Fred on June 21, 2007 11:25 AM

Posted by: pippinu on June 21, 2007 11:10 AM

It will be interesting to see if Arnie's learnt enough from Guus on preparation for these conditions. Bangkok at that time of year is oppressive (not to mention very smoggy) and I think Thailand, Oman and Iraq will be used to the conditions. At the very least I hope GA has learnt from Sydney's mistake in Solo City.

Does anyone remember what time of year the South East Asian nations start burning off their forests, creating bucketloads of smog?

Posted by: Brickowski on June 21, 2007 11:33 AM

Brickowski on June 21, 2007 11:03 AM

I think we need Juanpablo for the finer details but I gather it has something to do with his mother who has these panic attacks or something - maybe something to do with one of his brothers being kidnapped when he first went OS to Barca. They'd love him in Napoli - he'd go with Maradona as a referee on his CV and they are at a stage where they could build their team around him having just come up to Serie A and being pretty cashed-up. The Napolitani would love him to death. Juve are mentioned in that article too, but even as a Juve fan I can't see him fitting in with us, but Napoli ....

Pippu, I'm with Les. Everytime I read some this sort of stuff it just reinforces that you must never teach kids to play "safe", "boot it out" football. Where are they going to get their problem-solving abilities if coaches belt it out of them so young. They can work out the "safe" stuff later but they're less likely to get more creative or comfortable on the ball unless they do all the "risky", tricky stuff early on. As Les points out, Carle uses his right foot for standing on, he probably wouldn't have achieved much more anyway (yeah, he could have put a bit more effort in, but then Maradona didn't either and it didn't hold him back).

Was very happy with the outcome, this has played out perfectly, all that is needed now is for it to make the 6pm news, this would be satisfactory, if it where to make a today tonight or a 7.30 report, this would be icing on the cake.

With this small rebellion crushed. The empire can move on to more important matters like the conquest of asia.

PS: Political advisor??...I guess i could help Johnny Howard out of this hole.

Posted by: Fred on June 21, 2007 11:51 AM

"What else have you got, boges?"

Posted by: Brickowski on June 20, 2007 4:26 PM

"Your sister's phone number."

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 21, 2007 9:31 AM

"Excellent, you should probably give her a call then, she has lost the directions to your trailer park."

Posted by: Brickowski on June 21, 2007 10:35 AM

Not my problem. I put her up in the place and give her $20 a week for petrol for her 1986 BMW 318i the least she can do is remember how to get there!

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 21, 2007 11:54 AM

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 21, 2007 9:31 AM

Anyone who deliberately makes inflammatory comments (eg, 'SFC is crap/myopic etc etc' on a Sydney blog) is obviously not trying to be ingratiating Jed, your cynicism does you no credit regardless.

Look at it this way - someone who feigns injury to slow play is committing a cynical act in deliberately fooling the ref to prevent a counter attack. This behaviour does them no credit. Their nebulous justifications for this act, or the fuzzy way it makes them feel inside have no bearing on how others view them.

By the way, this kind of dive is my pet hate.

(Gee, I really had to work to get that one back on topic!)

Anyway, please continue with your sledging of SFC if it makes you feel more of a man. I also fully endorse any sledging of the following clubs/national sides:

*This list is in no particular order other than most to least enmity, and is subject to change without notice.

By the way, why do you assume the current SFC is not representative of the (Sydney) working class suburbs? If a new Sydney A-League team (I wouldn't normally have to clarify the team type, but Michael C is back with us) was established in North Sydney, or some other white collar area, (what about La Perouse United?) would this make SFC the Westies’ team?

In this eventuality, Jed, there is room on the bandwagon for you yet.

Posted by: Slippery Jim on June 21, 2007 12:04 PM

Anyway, please continue with your sledging of SFC if it makes you feel more of a man. I also fully endorse any sledging of the following clubs/national sides:

Liverpool
Uruguay
Arsenal

Posted by: Slippery Jim on June 21, 2007 12:04 PM

Jim,

Jed sledging my non-existent sister is fine, but if he so much as mentions Arsenal I will have to schlepp out to his trailer and rip his head from his malnourished shoulders.

back 3, vargas, pantelidis, pirkowski with Milicevic droping back to defend. Ljubo and muscat seem to gel in the midfield, ljubo really is a cut above.

The youngster Tabor who is only 15YO was fantastic, you should have seen the pace on him. He scored a fantastic header off a free kick.

Joe Keenan, have not seen him since the richmond game where he made a lot more runs down the left, but was solid.

Posted by: Fred on June 21, 2007 12:19 PM

Vicentin
I'm obviously not with the cranky bloke who wrote to Lowy!

And true - we don't want to crush creativity and individual expression (and it's also true that Maradona never used his right foot once in his career - not sure about his right hand!:)

But Carle is 25, he's been around a bit now, he needs to understand that there's a time and place, he needs to develop his decision making and judgement to be the player he truly wants to be. Under the circumstances, it wasn't the correct option - it was not the right time and place - he knows it now and that's good enough for me.

Almost an epiphany of Neill/Grosso proportions? Let's hope so.

Can you envisage anyone in the Italian team doing that at that precise moment? A successful team most surely requires the correct balance between professionalism, team discipline and creativity (although Germany has often done well without the latter). Have one too many Pirlos, or one too many Gattusos, or one too many Materazzi and that balance is probably lost (although you can always have an additional Cannavaro! - only kidding, that's probably not true - one 5ft bloke in the team is more than enough!)

This isn't going to become one of those discussion points that go backwards and forwards is it? :]

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 21, 2007 12:20 PM

some kids blew up my letterbox to smithereens - and I'm still pissed off about it

Posted by: pippinu on June 21, 2007 11:21 AM

What comes around goes around.
LOL.(i'm catching onto the jive eddie)

Hold the phone,whats this talk about goalies being unskilled?One example comes instantly to mind,EPL,can't recall his name,jugles the ball with an extra touch slams it into the top rh corner,made the keeper look pretty bad,imagine what the keeper thinks of the defenders.Yes,defenders can make a keeper look bad,or good for that matter.
Keeper,the one position you never get to relax unless someones injured.

8pm tonight Aurora channel,the Australian prem. league show,the show is growing on me.Interesting enougth,last week the highlights from Melbourne included the Sth. Melb. game,they have flares at premier league games in Victoria.

Posted by: EJ on June 21, 2007 12:40 PM

Posted by: pippinu on June 21, 2007 11:10 AM

"Hey Cheech - how did you know I was exactly 6 foot tall! Apart from Cannavaro, are there any other great CBs of the modern era who are shorter than 6ft?"

CB's are only two positions. Roberto Carlos is only about 5.6 or something. Although he aint a CB, he is a defender. Then you have the midfield - there are brilliant players who dominate game that are only about 5.6 to 5.7.

There are also goalkeepers no where near 6ft who are successfull. Campos for mexico a few years back.

Posted by: cheech on June 21, 2007 1:15 PM

Posted by: Slippery Jim on June 21, 2007 12:04 PM

Yeah I'll bite.

Well noted on the Sydney blog point but that is redundant. It is a Football BLOG on a Sydney-based media website, nothing to do with Sydney FC.

For the record I have defended Sydney FC a lot...too much for my own liking. That much cannot be disputed. I am just fed up with with the bollocks from FC and the attitude of some supporters towards the broader Sydney community.

Will I continue to "sledge" Sydney FC or the afore-mentioned insular few who loathe anything West and in particular a second A-League team in Homebush due to SFC's interests...? Damn right I will. Will I feel bad or apologetic because what I say offends come people or is not consistent with their own views? No.

You last question I make no such assumption. It has been canvassed by myself and others a number of times and the facts of the situation have not changed since that time.

I counter though with a question. How is Sydney FC representative of the Sydney and the people of Campbelltown, Penrith, Parramatta, Auburn, Bankstown, Liverpool, Blacktown, the Hills District and Hawkesbury?Particularly when to date, only one competition game has been played in the Western Suburbs of Sydney?

You see, you expect people from these traditional strongholds of Football to support SFC, yet how many SFC fans are willing to support a team based in the Western Suburbs...and how many regularly travelled out to see Power, United or Marconi in the NSL go around???

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 21, 2007 1:29 PM

For those who haven't heard yet:

BUENOS AIRES, June 20 Reuters - Result from the second leg of the Libertadores Cup final on Wednesday:
Gremio (Brazil) 0 Boca Juniors (Argentina) 2
Boca Juniors win 5-0 on aggregate.

Man of the moment, Riquelme, scored a double, both 2nd half goals, and Palermo missed from the penalty spot at the 85th!

What a pity that Riquelme won't be with Boca for the World club championship.

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 21, 2007 1:34 PM

Still coming to terms with the loss of Paul Okon, I hope he picks up some sort of coaching role soon. I think he has alot more to give to this great game of ours.
One of the true greats of Australian football, but like most of the great ones (Kewell, Viduka)have suffered from injuries or wrong club selection.

Posted by: Robbos on June 21, 2007 2:15 PM

"How is Sydney FC representative of the Sydney and the people of Campbelltown, Penrith, Parramatta, Auburn, Bankstown, Liverpool, Blacktown, the Hills District and Hawkesbury?"

Jed, I can't comment for most of them, but I do live very near to the Hawkesbury River, and I can say that Sydney FC definitely represents me.

When does Sydney start pre-season games and the like, does anyone know? I know they've just had the Champions League, but still, Pre-Season Cup is just a few weeks away.

Yes - I recall Campos - very acrobatic and lively - he'd turn the simplist of saves into a masterful display of twists and pikes - always wore a lairy strip - very colourful character in every sense of the word - apparently at club level he used to double as a striker! Now that's flexible!

Campos? Bring him back!!

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 21, 2007 2:27 PM

yes - true enough Robbos - they were very rare times when we got to see a fit Okon at his peak

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 21, 2007 2:29 PM

KUALA LUMPUR, June 21 AFP - French coach Bruno Metsu is
confident newly-crowned Gulf Cup champions United Arab Emirates can
spring a surprise in the Asian Cup finals but he knows they have a
tough fight on their hands.

This is timely because tonight I do my in-depth report on the UAE. This gives me some encouragement in having tipped the UAE to proceed ahead of Qatar, who are no mugs (as you would no doubt have noted from my last report!).

By the way, in case you are struggling to remember the name, Metsu is the French bloke who coached Senegal in 2002, leading them to the WC quarters. Yep!

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 21, 2007 2:40 PM

pippinu on June 21, 2007 12:20 PM

This isn't going to become one of those discussion points that go backwards and forwards is it? :]

This is something I really care about, so yes, but only this post promise.

Pippu, you're making it sound like he had heaps of options - he didn't, it was a friendly, it was nearly the end of the game, he'd only come on near the end exactly to "create something" - why not chance it and when you consider his lack of right foot? Short of putting his foot on it to stop it (and defender putting it out) turn etc ....... We are really all dwelling on it far too much, and this says a lot about the football culture that we (Australia) are currently in. Everyone should loosen up and realise that it is this very creativity that will also get you results - imagine if we went on about every over-hit pass, mis-timed tackle etc because there is "flair" involved its all "what does this poof think he's doing - I'd belt him one". Rant over.... almost. Australians (generalisation) do seem to be scared of "flair" players - I'm sure this is part of our RL and WIAP background coming through - I'm fed up with it. I'm sort of fed up with "percentage" football too, but I guess I'm just getting older and more cantankerous (sp?)

With regards to the Italians (who do largely play to the percentages) - I've always felt that your average Italian player is technically at a similar level to your Spanish or Portuguese and for the most part it is the tactical discipline that gets them results whereas nada for Spain and Portugal. Italians can do all the "tricks" but generally will only perform them when there really aren't other options. Totti would have probably done what Carle did in that situation. I know most people hate him and he named his daughter something stupid recently (but not as stupid as Beckham and his kids) but I'd rather be watching him that a team of ...pick a name ... Luke Wilshires!

Palermo always misses penalties - we sure he's not Dutch (oh, I can't use that anymore).

Posted by: Vicentin on June 21, 2007 2:47 PM

Posted by: tintin1989 on June 21, 2007 2:26 PM

Ummm nice try but living near to the Hawkesbury River could mean you live at Mooney Mooney or Brooklyn or a number of places...

---

"Jed sledging my non-existent sister is fine, but if he so much as mentions Arsenal I will have to schlepp out to his trailer and rip his head from his malnourished shoulders."

Posted by: Brickowski on June 21, 2007 12:17 PM

They're pretty big malnourished shoulders...parolees get lots of time to work out on the inside...

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 21, 2007 2:53 PM

Sorry Jed, I retract all my comments, it seems I have been out-canvassed.

Valid point: If poor Jed feels left out of Sydney FC living way out at Paramatta (correct me if I'm wrong)a 30 minute drive at most to home games, how ever do, say, Birdsville or Thurday Island folk relate to Queensland Roar?

Just as well we no longer have New Zealand Knights who obviously ostracized themselves out of the A-League by having the gall of being located more than 5 minutes drive from 99% of the population of their mighty nation.

Posted by: Slippery Jim on June 21, 2007 2:53 PM

Ben Willing: Graham Arnold has come out and said that he expects the Socceroos to make the Asian Cup Final, anything less would be considered a failure. The bulk of the squad are/were at Sydney Airport just now/recently, getting on a Qantas flight to Singapore. Thus begins the Asian Cup campaign. I am counting the days until I get ona plane to Bangkok (I will be forced to watch the Singapore friendly on a big screen in Sydney).

Posted by: Ben Willing on June 21, 2007 2:56 PM

cantankerous (sp?)
Posted by: Vicentin on June 21, 2007 2:47 PM

I get the feeling it's spelt Jed Petersen :)

Posted by: djebella on June 21, 2007 3:01 PM

Ok - I can see this discussion is going to take up the rest of the afternoon now.

I generally don't disagree with much of what you are saying. With the Carle episode (and yes, this is starting to attract far more attention than it probably warrants, but I can't help myself), my main beef was not only that it wasn't the percentage thing to do, but the ball was absolutely racing towards the line, he was a good metre behind trying to catch up with, and basic physiscs tells you that it simply was only ever going to end up the way it did - that was my main beef.

On top of that, he was virtually inside the 6 yard box - that is an all too rare mouth watering prospect for the three strikers who would have been racing down the middle expecting the ball in - no right foot? surely no professional footballer is that weak on their non-preferred side - he only had to slide at it and poke it back in! It could have come off any part of his anatomy and it would have been a better result than what he tried!

Otherwise - your point is valid - watching a team play the percentages all the time can become mega boring (in all codes) - Germany of yore?

Poor old Luke! Let me tell you - he sometimes surprises, so using him as an example was quite unfounded. I'll tell you what I like most about Luke, he can do nicely weighted chips over defences that don't run to fast or far beyond the forward chasing it - it doesn't sound like too much - and he ain't got much more than that - but he has certainly caught defences napping a few times with that sort of intelligent ball.

Any team needs a wide range of arms.

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 21, 2007 3:15 PM

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 21, 2007 2:53 PM

Good stuff big fella, let's leave it there then, this is just getting silly.

However, if you ever happen to see someone in a SFC jersey with Brickowski printed on the back, don't come up and introduce yourself.

This may affect Pippu's claims of Indonesia being one of the better performing hosts.

Posted by: Brickowski on June 21, 2007 3:33 PM

Posted by: Ben Willing on June 21, 2007 2:56 PM

I don't like it.Over confidence does nothing for a team,the only way you can go is down,because Arny already has us at top.I hope I'm wrong,but the favourites rarely win these days,was if SFC last year for V2,Brazil for the WC & the dogs for the NRL this season,they are currently 3rd last.I can not imagine Guss going round chanting "we're going to win it"."Who the hell are going to beat us"?
The underdog tag is a much better build up.

I can see myself putting a copy of this blog on a future flog.

Posted by: EJ on June 21, 2007 3:35 PM

"I don't like it.Over confidence does nothing for a team"
Posted by: EJ

hear, hear.

Still all quiet on the SFC front...
Hello, is there anyone there?

Posted by: PJ on June 21, 2007 3:54 PM

By the way, he mentions a letter that Frank Lowy received from a punter saying that Carle should be sacked from the squad, etc. The letter writer sounds so cranky - I was wondering whether it was our very own KB!! :]

Posted by: pippinu on June 21, 2007 9:19 AM

There you go again making false representation of fellow bloggers.

I have always said that our Nicky Carle is the best No.10 we have home or abroad.

Is this another one of your mid-life crisis trying to draw attention to yourself by spreading non-truths?

As always, you want to mislead us with false information and statistics, when it comes to AFL vs Football (participation numbers).

If what you say is true; that you read it in the sister paper of the SMH; why then did you not post the link of that article for all of us to read first hand?

Maybe then we would not have attacked you but instead the journo who wrote the rubbish, and for us to grasp what he truly was trying to convey.

I certainly can not believe Ben Buckley would be so stupid to say what you say he said.

Please prove me wrong by posting the link from which you read that report.

KB
_____________
Let's be honest.

Posted by: Koala Bear on June 21, 2007 3:55 PM

Posted by: Brickowski on June 21, 2007 3:33 PM

Damn - you've caught me talking through my hat again!

Actually, I've said that all 4 are unlikely to get any points - but that I reckon both Thailand and Indonesia has the greatest chance of grabbing a point off someone (but none of the host nations are going to qualify). Granted that losing your two main strikers on the eve of the comp ain't gonna help too much.

By the way, if I see a blue shirt with Brickowski on the back, I'm gonna sneak up behind you, whack you over the head, and then hide in the crowd (I can be quite juvenile at times).

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 21, 2007 3:56 PM

Posted by: Fred on June 21, 2007 12:19 PM

15 years old!!

Is there any law against signing up 15 year olds on 15 year contracts??

I tell you what, MV just keeps finding them and finding them!
_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 21, 2007 4:01 PM

Posted by: pippinu on June 21, 2007 3:56 PM

Please be careful if you do that though, I do tend to put a lot of 'product' in my hair and the spikes can be quite sharp and pointy. I don't need the hassle of going to hospital to have your hand removed from my head.

Posted by: Brickowski on June 21, 2007 4:16 PM

C'mon KB - you know I was only kidding about the letter!

Re the other matter, firstly, let me say that I am meticulous with citing references and sources, and I always do so.

I read those figures in the hard copy of the newspaper (they still exist!) - I just found the link:

True or not - to me it means nothing and doesn't affect the way I feel about either game. One is our native code, which I love like my family, and the other is the World Game - as infectious as life itself. Partipation rates, numbers, figures, blah, blah, blah - at the end of the day - who really cares?! Sure, it's interesting to go over it, and discuss it, but why are people taking it all to heart so much??

There's 17 days to go!!!
_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 21, 2007 5:02 PM

Still all quiet on the SFC front...
Hello, is there anyone there?

Posted by: PJ on June 21, 2007 3:54 PM

Their about to sign a marquee player??
LOL!!!!

I stand corrected on the hair cream,I was just trying to emphesise that the mr meaners in other codes are a lot worse.

This blog title sucks and irrates me every time I click to see whats the latest!!

Yeah it happens and its a blight on our game, but do I need to be reminded of it every time I check out the latest blogging!!

Time for a change!!

Ben Willing: Don't worry, I'll have something new by the weekend.

Posted by: SFC on June 21, 2007 5:17 PM

"I don't like it.Over confidence does nothing for a team"
Posted by: EJ

hear, hear.

Posted by: PJ on June 21, 2007 3:54 PM

I am with you lads..! I get a bit worried or nervous when we are favourites...

KB
_________________
"C" stands for being Cautious

Posted by: Koala Bear on June 21, 2007 5:34 PM

I have to admit, everytime I see the flippers standing out of the water, I have to think again about what it all means!

I've been having a stoush with someone on the Guardian, about the quality of the A-League re the Championship - sure, maybe it's a touch too early to go mouthing off too much, but bugger it - I don't feel like a bout of cultural cringe right now!

Now it occurs to me that the main person I'm stoushing with might be a regular flogger - what do you think? Anyone wish to fess up?!

Have a look at the Guardian blog, under something like Soccer Madness, or something, we're currently top of the pops!

And what about a little bit of support!! C'mon you guys, why should I be doing all this alone?!

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 21, 2007 5:44 PM

Posted by: pippinu on June 21, 2007 5:02 PM

Pippinu,
fair enough; I did get a bit toey when I first read it (Nicky Carle) so I stand corrected and let us move on.

He is my boy; not literally but I love the way he takes on players without fear of making a mess of it.

Les M, is totally right; he will be our ace up our sleeve in 2010.

KB
_________________

Posted by: Koala Bear on June 21, 2007 6:54 PM

Posted by: SFC on June 21, 2007 5:17 PM

I'm with you.
That bloody cheating Grosso dived & robbed Australia the chance to qualify for the 1/4 finals. End of topic!!!!!

Posted by: Robbos on June 21, 2007 7:44 PM

Posted by: pippinu on June 21, 2007 5:44 PM

Pipps, you're on your own there, son. The english will not listen when someone tries to tell them that they know better.

While I agree that A League teams play at a higher standard than the championship (championship mind, not Champions League as you said in one of your early Guardian posts), I won't be supporting your assertions regarding the skill levels of the victardry.

BTW, I don't think SateliteOne is John, it could be any pommy twat.

Posted by: Brickowski on June 21, 2007 8:15 PM

KB
no doubting we need him in the mix - and he is most definitely part of the picture for 2010!

I now too pledge to never bring up that ill-fated pass again! (did you hear that Vicentin?!)

Pippu/Bricks - Pippu you don't need our help on the Guardian blogs, you can grind down the best of them (you're not suggesting that I have this trait too are you?).

I think where the A-League loses out a bit is just the fact that we play fewer games and as a result our teams probably aren't as fit or capable of playing at such a high pace for the full ninety minutes. Frankly I hate that light speed rubbish anyway ... unless you've got teams that can make the ball stick to their feet at that speed and there aren't many of them in any league.

Oh and Pippu, just in case you think that I'm this lard-arse who doesn't like running round because of my preference for skilled players over "athletes" I just wish to assure that I am a supreme athlete ... and highly skilled to boot, well capable of running rings around much younger folk ... including adults ;0)

Posted by: Vicentin on June 21, 2007 9:33 PM

djebella on June 21, 2007 3:01 PM

I get the feeling it's spelt Jed Petersen :)

They've both got four syllables - close enough.

Ben Willing on June 21, 2007 2:56 PM
Ben, will you have a substitute moderator while you're in Bangkok? Or will you - thanks to the wonders of modern technology - be maintaining The Flog from there? What will/would we do without The Flog????!!!! Cheers

Like Mike "the Animal" Tyson.
Look dumb, look stupid, look like you don't know what you are doin'.
Meanwhile your opponents are looking good, looking sharp. Signing up the best "South Americans" and "Ex-Europeans" on the third rock, for the cost of the oily rag.
Getting confident, more confident. Maybe even overconfident.

Then Whammo!
Outa nowhere comes the thunderous right cross that catches you unawares.
All the fancy footwork, fat lipping, float like a butterfly bragging about who's got the best players comes to nothing.
Grandad Culina has snuck up on those cocky southerners while they weren't looking and hit them where it hurts.

The tards grip on the toilet seat becomes weaker and weaker till they finally slide down between the greasy turds and soggy toilet paper to end up flushed out to sea, chewed up by the hungry little fishes and crabs.

Meanwhile SFC retains their pride and glory and the rightful ownership of the golden cradle that lays the golden poos.

Posted by: jimbo on June 21, 2007 10:01 PM

"Ummm nice try but living near to the Hawkesbury River could mean you live at Mooney Mooney or Brooklyn or a number of places..."

Close! I'm somewhere up north there, but not quite Mariners territory. Further away from Aussie Stadium than half of Western Sydney though. I agree there should be a Western Sydney team eventually, but there's no reason why you can't support Sydney FC till then. I think the next round of expansion should be a Gold Coast/Nth Qld plus Illawarra/Canberra and then the round after that should be 2nd Melbourne and 2nd Sydney.

Posted by: tintin1989 on June 21, 2007 10:11 PM

"(championship mind, not Champions League as you said in one of your early Guardian posts)"

did I? Damn! It all becomes a blur!

Anyway - exciting news everyone - I just got the latest e-magazine from the Vics - check this out!

They've just signed Costa Rican international Carlos Hernandez and former Qantas Young Socceroo Kaz Patafta, boosting Victory’s squad to 19 players!

The club also announced a pre-season Asian tour, with matches to be played against the China national team and Chinese Super League side Tianjin Teda, before the 2007 Pre-Season Cup begins against Adelaide United on July 15.

Don’t forget, the new Victory Shop will open on Monday, 2 July. Located at 236 Swan Street, Richmond, the new Victory Shop will feature all the latest merchandise and will be open for membership sales.

You can also join online at melbournevictory.com.au, where you can download the membership brochure and application form.
Don’t forget that when you join up online, you go into the draw to win a 101cm Full High Definition Samsung LCDTV, valued at over $4,000 thanks to Samsung.

Early bird offer! Join prior to June 28 to win 1 of 5 shirts signed by the Melbourne Victory team.

The Age
As a Melbourne Victory member you can have The Age home delivered every Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday for 52 weeks for only $25.

Melbourne Hyundai Dealer Team cash back offer
Victory members will receive $500 cash back when purchasing a new Hyundai. This offer is over and above any retail offer available at any given time from HMCA and the dealer group.

Victory in Business luncheon – guest speaker David Parkin
Friday, 13 July, 12:00pm at the Palladium at Crown
$105 per head (guests of Victory in Business members) and $115 (for non-members)

Anyone who doesn't want to be part of this club has got rocks in their head!
_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 21, 2007 10:46 PM

It's getting late, and I'm tired, but I did promise to do a report on the UAE, so here it is.

The UAE was ranked 91 at the time of the mag - which belies what they are capable of (IMHO).

They're 7th on the Asian Cup all-time table with 8 wins, 6 draws and 9 losses. They were runners-up in 1996, their best finish ever.

In their last 41 games over a 3 year period they have had 12 wins, 13 draws and 16 losses, scoring 56 goals (at an average of around 1.3 per game) and conceding 57. It's interesting that this is just about the lowest scoring average we have come across in our 6 reviews to date.

They had a shocking Asian Cup tournament in 2004: losing to Kuwait 1-3; losing to Sth Korea 0-2 and drawing with Jordan 0-0. Their inability to score goals evident then.

Soon after this the UAE suffered a 3-0 loss to Thailand in Thailand in a WC qualifier - perhaps their lowest point of the last three years.

Later the same year they also quickly bowed out of the Gulf Cup: drawing to Qatar 2-2; losing to Oman 1-2; and drawing to Iraq 1-1.

The UAE played some friendlies in Japan in May of 2005, drawing with Peru 0-0 and actually defeating Japan 0-1. They appear to have started picking up from this point.

The UAE topped their qualifying group for this year's Asian Cup against Oman, Jordan and Pakistan. Worringly, in their final group game they scraped in for a win at home against Pakistan 3-2. They actually defeated Pakistan 0-4 in Karachi months earlier!

Frenchman Bruno Metsu (coached Senegal in the 2002 WC) is the UAE's coach. Not only was he behind the UAE's Gulf cup win against Oman this year, but he also coached local club Al Ain to the ACL title in 2003. So we certainly know that he has a bit of the midas touch about him.

The UAE play 4-2-3-1 (what else with a French coach). Their best striker, Mohammad Omar, scored 4 goals in the qualifiers.

The key man is AM Esmaeil Mattar, who actually played as a striker in the recent Gulf Cup success, scoring 5 goals for the tournament.

None of the UAE players have any exposure at foreign clubs, from what I can tell, but their domestic league is decent by Asian standards.

Summary.
I tip them to make it past rival Qatar for that all important 2nd spot behind Japan. I'm swayed by their recent Gulf Cup victory and the fact that they have one of the best coaches in Asia at the helm. This means that they will be Australia's likely opponent in the quarters - where we hope their tournament will end!

Players to watch:
Forwards Mohammad Omar and Esmaeil Mattar appear to be in good recent form.

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 21, 2007 11:20 PM

The tards grip on the toilet seat becomes weaker and weaker till they finally slide down between the greasy turds and soggy toilet paper to end up flushed out to sea, chewed up by the hungry little fishes and crabs.

Posted by: jimbo on June 21, 2007 10:01 PM

That's beautiful, beautiful stuff. Almost poetic. *sniff* brings a tear to the eye

Posted by: Brickowski on June 21, 2007 11:38 PM

Posted by: jimbo on June 21, 2007 10:01 PM

ha, ha - let me tell you jimbo - I'm not sure I have it in me to read that post a 2nd time! I really need to get to bed after that one!

Vicentin - no, with your healthy diet and living - I never envisaged you as a lard-arse (speaking of which....)

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 22, 2007 12:01 AM

Well I have nthing to say about Boca winning the championship.. but they are sure in Fox here that Riquelme is the best version now than at any other time in his career... I guess that is because he is happy being back in his country and with his family... but he has to go back to Villareal... and then on to wherever... Napoli is like Boca for me.. the fans are similar... the stadium is not too different. It would be a team he could DIRECT... this is his strength. The interesting thing here for me is that the club recognises the WCC as the most important... unlike in Europe... which is good for Asia and Oceania, as we play in that... I would still like to see that they allow the Wellington team to play in their own confederations championship... and have the chance to represent NZ properly. Maybe it would need two teams... you cannot take th international competition from the grasp of Wellington, for all the reasons why we want to see the games played v Japanese teams etc

Boys boys boys... you can have my sisters number stop fighting... if not I have a number of hot girl friends who are readily available!!

Posted by: juanpabloangel on June 22, 2007 2:17 AM

AMSTERDAM, June 21 Reuters - Italy won a ticket to the 2008
Beijing Olympics after beating Portugal 4-3 on penalties in their
European Under-21 championship play-off in Nijmegen on Thursday,
despite being reduced to 10 men from the 74th minute.

The 4 semi finalists from these U21 championships qualify for the Olympics. Because only Britain counts as an Olympic member, and not England who made the semis, Italy and Portugal played off for the final spot.

The game itself had remained at nil-all after extra time.

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 22, 2007 9:11 AM

Good Morning fellow floggers.

This may or may not be the last day I can post here for a while. I am leaving my current job at the end of today and I don't think I will be allowed the same freedom at my next post to piss away the hours discussing football and stereotyping my fellow floggers.

As I have to hand back my laptop today I will also be out of action after hours for at least a couple of weeks. So, if I don't come back, I'd just like to say it's been great fun interacting with you all, even you Jed, and I hope you all continue to discuss and promote this great sport in our fine country.

To sign off with, a great story about our magnificent service men & women, nothing to do with football but certainly warms the cockles.

"The friendly against Singapore is about getting out and experiencing the conditions.

"We won't be in top form so I don't expect a wonderful performance, but what I do expect is a professional performance.

"I think we won't hit our form in the first three games but if we can
build into the tournament, hopefully by the quarter-finals, the semis and final that we'll hit our straps. The first few games could be quite
tough."

On the one hand, this is a time worn approach to tournaments - and we can all think of examples of teams that started extremely slowly in the early stages of a tournament to take out the ultimate prize in the end (Italy in 1982), and of the opposite, where teams have come out all guns blazing only to drop out in one of the next two knock-out rounds (Brazil in 1982, Spain in nearly every WC).

But it is an approach that is always fraught with danger - look no further than Brazil last year, who went down this exact route. The build up was slow in the group stage: 1-0 against Croatia, 2-0 against us, 4-1 against Japan. They crushed Ghana (I think it was) 3-0 and everything seemed to be going to plan - but ultimately fell to France 1-0 in the quarters (who too had a slow build up).

Given the conditions, going via a slow build up is good planning. We are in a group where we can probably afford to do precisely that.

As long as we remember that:
1. We actually have to get the results to top our group (an easy thing to lose sight of when you're planning your rotations, etc.); and
2. We better be switched on by the time we make the quarters, where we are likely to meet either Qatar or the UAE - both of whom are adept at tournament play themselves.

This is a good time for me to express one nagging doubt I have, and yes, it's related to the conditions.

We're probably all tipping Australia vs Japan for the final - the symmetry is irresistible: Japan going after their 3rd straight title, also wanting to seek revenge against Australia who is ready to make a splash in their first Asian tournament.

But - this is my nagging doubt - of all the countries in the Asian Cup - these are the two who are probably the least familiar with the conditions to be encountered.

So let me tell you all now: only one of either Australia or Japan will actually make the final!

You read it here first!

_______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 22, 2007 9:29 AM

Bricks
you have to give your laptop back?

Stop being a tight arse and go buy your own - fark'n!

______
pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 22, 2007 10:27 AM

there is talk carney is going to walk out on sydney for sheffield wednesday at bling..

we find out about cocu tomorrow and popa is on branko's radar

Ben Willing: And SFC will sign striker Brendan Santalab today.

Posted by: Eddie on June 22, 2007 10:32 AM

mmm Sydney

Carney to leave for Sheffield Wednesday?! (Where's Vic these days). No positive news on marquee signings and set to sign Brendan Santalad as another striker ... all rather underwhelming isn't it? I'd noticed some of these rumours on the Sydney FC threads but looks like there's a bit more substance now.

I've never actually wrote anything on The Guardian blogg, I just have a read from time to time. Sat1 or whatever he's called is a little obnoxious.

Bricks, the reason the Aussies got away was once they opened their mouths they though sh*t, imagine having to listen to that rabble for 2 weeks - and moved on.

Vicentin

The A league has a way to go yet before it reaches the standard of the Championship. As I said before if it was as good their would be a lot more Aussies players in the Championship now. A league = bottom half of league 1 and for some like NZ - Conference.

Posted by: John on June 22, 2007 10:45 AM

Posted by: pippinu on June 22, 2007 10:27 AM

Pipps,

I will get a new laptop at my next job, starting monday. We have a PC at home as well, the problem is that it's upstairs in the cold room and I can set my laptop up on the coffee table with the heater, TV etc in the same room.

Just found out that my new company car and laptop have been delivered to the tard, i mean melbourne office so they are flying me down there on wednesday for a meet and greet and then I have to drive my new car back to Sydney.

I have driven the Albury - Sydney leg a million times but I have never actually driven in victardria before. Kind of excited. Anyway, my point is what's the go with the hook turn farkin?

So is it true? Super Dave off to bumfu...., I mean sheffield? That's sad, I mean really sad, not that he's leaving Sydney, but that he chose to go the championship, which as we all know is inferior. Weren't Aachen after him last year? I'd much prefer to see him go there than sheffield.

John, John, John, poor misguided John. An Aussie soldier with a gun would have to be one of the frightening sights in the world of warfare. We're tough, highly skilled and really just don't give a fark. A hell of a lot more scray than a pack of prissy toffs saying 'I say there chaps, don't kidnap us, wot. If you'd all be so kind as to lower your weapons, we can all sit down for a spot of tea, wot wot, toodle pip, then'.

From all reports the pommy naval and marines got caught with their pants down, probably not for the first time either.

Posted by: Brickowski on June 22, 2007 11:03 AM

"As a Melbourne Victory member you can have The Age home delivered every Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday for 52 weeks for only $25."

Anyone at my uni can pick up the Daily Telegraph and Sydney Morning Herald for free each weekday if they fill out a form at the start of the year, and they deliver the weekend papers for free as well. Who says nothing in life is free? I think my deal beats Victory's somehow Pippinu.

But yes, its good that they're doing this kind of stuff.

Posted by: tintin1989 on June 22, 2007 11:29 AM

"FOOTBALL Federation Australia, fed-up with the lighting of flares during games, may consider stripping Melbourne Victory of premiership points"

This might be the rest of the league's only hope!

"Buckley paid tribute to Victory's fan power and on-field prowess, but said Melbourne had earned a reputation as the league's trouble spot."
There Pippinu, there's another area where there is light between you and the rest of the teams, crowd trouble!!!

Posted by: tintin1989 on June 22, 2007 11:32 AM

Posted by: tintin1989 on June 21, 2007 10:11 PM

Yeah well, there are reasons apart from distance too and those relate to the inability to spark mine or anyone else's imagination off the park...hence me taking a shine to Jatos De Newcastle for v.3 as I did with the Mariners before that.

And yes...I won't be missing one Melbourne game...well any games really, I watch them all.

Sydney FC prove me wrong.

---

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June

21, 2007 2:53 PM

Good stuff big fella, let's leave it there then, this is just getting silly.

However, if you ever happen to see someone in a SFC jersey with Brickowski printed on the back, don't come up and introduce yourself.

Posted by: Brickowski on June 21, 2007 3:28 PM

You don't know how scared I am right now...hell I might go and rob a bank to break parole and get sent back behind bars where I'll be safe from SFC fans called Brickowski.

___________

"S" stands for Scared Sh1tless of Sydney Supports

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 22, 2007 11:49 AM

Our boys are some of the toughest in the world. The SAS have a fearsome repuation hence why some of your top boys jump ship to fight with them. Well I suppose we all fight under the same crown at the end of the day. When I was down in Canberra visiting one of the war musieums I was informed that if Australia were engaged in a full scale war / battle you would have enough amunition to last 45 minutes!! Impressive.

Back to the football Bricks -'super Dave' of to Sheffield Wednesday proves my point exactly -thanks very much. It's a good promotion for him - he must be chuffed.

As much as I dislike Melbourne...they have had the follow up to their Championship that Sydney could only dream off.

Is the santalab signing a confimation that Sydney cannot muster the funds for Aloisi and that Coco is somwhere learning Arabic right now?
________

"D" stands for disapointing

"W" Stands for West Sydney Wanderers for the A-League please!

"T" Stands for Telstra - make it happen!!!

Posted by: Jed Petersen on June 22, 2007 12:09 PM

Ben Willing: FYI - I've started a new thread. There's nothing too new or exciting in there, sorry.

Posted by: Ben Willing on June 22, 2007 12:12 PM

Posted by: Brickowski on June 22, 2007 10:57 AM

Hook turn - generally due to tram tracks up the guts of the street, so it keeps cars from holding up the trams. Not a bad notion really.

Congrats on your forthcoming Victorian country drive.

Alas - Victoria long ago completed the Hume Dullway all the way to Wodonga city limits (and soon you'll be bypassing Albury).

It's just dull driving on a freeway of sameness. The trickiest thing is getting out of Melbourne - but there's a road called 'Sydney Road'!!! Or the freeways all link up to the Ring Rd and then directly to the Hume now (you needn't even go through Cragieburn anymore).

So - enjoy the banal coloured concrete or metal. And try to pull off here and there in the bypassed towns for a cuppa and a stroll -

most importantly

-and look out for the speed cameras - they're the types now that measure how long it took you to cover X distance and if it is determined that you must have been speeding, then you get pinged!! (it seemed to really work the first time I drove on the road under those conditions - everyone was driving much more placidly).

cheers

(btw - article in the NEws Ltd paper about Prozone tracking Steve Gerrard - quite interesting, might see it at the 'G soon)

Posted by: Vicentin on June 22, 2007 10:44 AM

You mention Sheff Wed, reminds me, what's the latest on Sheff Utd and the great relegation 'case'?

Posted by: Michael C on June 22, 2007 12:13 PM

My armie's tougher than your army???

What is this, the RSL blog?

That new thread came not a moment too soon!

Posted by: Slippery Jim on June 22, 2007 12:30 PM

I love it when I'm gone from my desk for a couple of hours and I come back and there's like 15 posts to read - it's always great stuff - without exception - I just love all you guys to death (guys used in the genderless fashion, just in case).

John
If Carney goes to Sheffield Wednesday, he'll never play for the Socceroos again - we don't want our boys playing Championship level! Why? Because it offers zero development opportunity. He'd be better off playing for Helmond Sport in the Eerste Divisie - daarom!

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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 22, 2007 1:07 PM

I'd like to follow up my good Northern friend, Vicentin, on a number of matters:

you're not suggesting that I have this trait too are you?

Let us say that you're no slouch!

Ben, will you have a substitute moderator while you're in Bangkok?

Yes, what's going on? We can't go to the Asian cup without the FLOG!!

Ben, are you entrusting everything to the other Ben? Are you sure he won't let you down again?!

On the subject, like Bricks, I too will soon set myself up nice and comfy in front of my Fox TV with a laptop and wireless connection. I'm wondering whether there is any way I could do minute-by-minute updates of the Aussie games (or any others that might take my fancy).

Plenty of floggers won't have access to the games - and I can provide them that! in my own witty, hilarious, inimitable and highly intelligent manner!!

Please, Ben, please (God, I'm starting to sound like my own kids...)

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pippinu

Ben Willing: I'll be posting new threads from Asia. The moderating will be done by our online staff (probably not as fast as I do it, but still ok).

Posted by: pippinu on June 22, 2007 1:14 PM

Hey Bricks - that's great news all round - I was starting to get worried that you had no job to go to and I was thinking of asking you to join my PI practice.

It's a pity I'm not living in Holbrook in that rat-infested office - you could have dropped by. We could have climbed up the submarine and talked stuff over.

Anyway, I'm glad you're back on board - it wouldn't have been the same without you. I have to admit that I love all your unPC stereotypes. It is you that has taught me everything I've ever known about the Central Coast (where ever that is) and Western Sydney!

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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 22, 2007 1:20 PM

tintin
I'm an ex paper boy myself - in the days when you had to wake up at 5:30 in the morning to deliver them, for the princely sum of something like $3 a week. It would take two weeks to save up the money to buy an LP (that's a big record for you young'uns).

This flare business is the sort of thing that could really derail MV's very best laid plans.

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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 22, 2007 1:25 PM

Our boys are some of the toughest in the world.

John
The whole world now knows that they all blabbered without the Iranians laying a finger on them!

One started weeping when they took his i-pod.

It's this sort of lack of professionalism and discipline that permeates the Championship!

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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 22, 2007 1:28 PM

Alright, that's me done, hopefully I'll be back soon, if not keep on keepin' on.

Pipps, thanks for the warning, I will make sure to take it easy, I may even head up the coast road as I have never been that way, well south of Narooma anyway.

Good stuff on the genderless salutation, it was nice of you to think of Funky and John.

Vicentin, I may see you around the traps, don't know how we'll recognise each other though.

Jed: Go and f*** yourself.

Adios for now.

Ben Willing: Re: "Jed: Go and f*** yourself.", that is some exit! Consider yourself temporarily banned, at least until you get internet access again ;D.

Posted by: Brickowski on June 22, 2007 1:34 PM

Posted by: Brickowski on June 22, 2007 1:34 PM

Ben W:
Bricks, always makes fine exits.

KB
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"F.E." stands for fine exits.

Posted by: Koala Bear on June 22, 2007 2:00 PM

I don't know who started it... but I don't really care to waste my time reading about you two bickering... nor with Michael C... and tintin... I would point out that your entry into uni probably costs a little more than the price of the two newspapers... so I guess they can afford it! Oh and code 360000... number of fans in melbourne games this season???

Posted by: juanpabloangel on June 23, 2007 12:53 AM

Posted by: jimbo on June 21, 2007 10:01 PM

Jimbo,
now why is it, that the Sydney Morning Herald put up with the lame writings of Mike Cockerill and leave a scribe of your talent sitting on the bench..???

KB

Posted by: Koala Bear on June 23, 2007 12:06 PM

I would point out that your entry into uni probably costs a little more than the price of the two newspapers... so I guess they can afford it! Oh and code 360000... number of fans in melbourne games this season???

Juan
360,000? Ten home games - I reckon that'll be pretty close to spot on (but only because SFC, AU and QR are played once each).

I was wondering whether anyone was going to make this thread tick over 400!
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pippinu

Posted by: pippinu on June 23, 2007 3:23 PM

Alright, that's me done, hopefully I'll be back soon, if not keep on keepin' on.

Pipps, thanks for the warning, I will make sure to take it easy, I may even head up the coast road as I have never been that way, well south of Narooma anyway.

Good stuff on the genderless salutation, it was nice of you to think of Funky and John.

Vicentin, I may see you around the traps, don't know how we'll recognise each other though.

Jed: Go and f*** yourself.

Adios for now.

Ben Willing: Re: "Jed: Go and f*** yourself.", that is some exit! Consider yourself temporarily banned, at least until you get internet access again ;D.

Posted by: Brickowski on June 22, 2007 1:34 PM

LOL!!! I'll give it too ya, you copped a alot before I broke ya, well done...
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