New York’s property tax nightmare

Slowly, over the last decade, the American Dream of homeownership has turned for many New Yorkers into a nightmare of property taxes growing out of control.

For three decades, private and public studies have identified high taxes on real estate as a major threat to the state’s economy. Nationwide comparisons consistently put several New York counties, mostly upstate, among the most taxed anywhere. It’s a distinction shared with some counties in New Jersey, where a taxpayer revolt has begun to shift the state’s politics.

Five-figure annual tax bills on the best real estate have become a reality, driving retired New Yorkers to give up their longtime homes and rethink their lives, and forcing families to scrimp and defer dreams.

Even while the Consumer Price Index — a measure of our ever-rising cost of living — grew at a pace of only a few percentage points annually in recent years, growth of the property tax burden upstate has hovered close to 7 percent a year. Over the last decade, outside New York City — where a city income tax keeps the property tax low — the property tax burden has grown at a rate double that of wage growth.

People and businesses are being squeezed. Projections of what will occur to local tax burdens without major reform generate one chart after another with lines that shoot up geometrically vertical.

“We’ve gotten ourselves in this situation of unsustainability,” said Stephen Acquario, executive director of the New York State Association of Counties. “Albany is setting the property tax levy all across the state.”

The median annual tax bill for much of New York City’s suburbs has now risen above $8,000, and it is commonplace for owners of large or modern homes in Westchester and Nassau counties, which border the city, to owe more each year in property tax than the cost of a new car. Elsewhere upstate, where home values are lower, the tax burden is proportionally just as harsh.

In fact, “outside New York City” is the asterisk for all property tax debate and the statistics discussed here, because that’s where the problem is — much of it driven by a state legislature dominated by city interests, which mandates what local governments do without providing money to pay for it. Public schools account for almost two-thirds of local property tax burden outside New York City, and their annual costs per student now range from about $15,000 to $25,000 per year, far above the national norm.

Property taxes also support county government, but that comprises just one-fifth, roughly, of the typical property tax bill. Even so, that is now 79 percent above the average nationally, with 90 percent of the dollars raised mandated by state law — mostly to support the Medicaid coverage that costs more than in any other state.

But despite numerous gubernatorial, legislative and comptroller reports proposing fixes, almost nothing has been done.

But a grassroots attack on property taxes is growing. Proposals for tax caps, income-based tax breaks, government consolidations and widespread cost-cutting are in such demand now that this fall’s candidates for statewide offices — even for attorney general — are making the issue mainstream. Politicians on the right and the left alike promise they will bring about change.

But even with New Yorkers paying, by some measures, up to 40 percent of their income to sustain schools and local governments and help raise $45 billion in local property taxes statewide, activists are not so confident politicians will actually go to bat for them. They point to heavy lobbying and influence by supporters of the current structure, particularly from unions for public employees and teachers.

Said former Nassau County Executive Thomas Suozzi, who led a 2008 commission that recommended dramatic changes: “There are people that benefit from the status quo, and the benefits they receive from the status quo will not occur from a reformed system.”

The Legislature is in denial, said Stephen Berger, an investment company operator who headed a state commission on health care reform, which has led to hospital consolidations and closings.

“Nobody understands how broke we are,” Berger said. “Unless we start really cutting spending, we’re going to be in the toilet and they’re going to flush it.”

Suozzi has been calling for changes for years. The key recommendation of his commission is now at the heart of the debate: installing a cap on how much school districts and local governments can raise taxes each year.

He likes the one Attorney General Andrew Cuomo proposed late this summer after he began his campaign for governor: a cap at 2 percent growth of the tax levy or at the inflation rate, whichever is lower.

Gov. David Paterson earlier proposed a 4 percent cap. The state Senate overwhelmingly passed a bill in March to impose that 4 percent cap or 120 percent of the inflation rate, plus a “circuit breaker” – providing a substantial tax break based on a property owner’s household income, so that property owners making $150,000 and below would be spared a full bill.

The cost to the state for the circuit breaker relief would be about $1.3 billion a year, said state Sen. Jeff Klein, a Democrat representing parts of the Bronx and highly taxed Westchester County, who sponsored the bill. It gained no traction in the Democrat-dominated Assembly, so he introduced a tax cap bill alone in August and all but one senator, Sen. Bill Perkins, D-Harlem, a favorite of the New York State United Teachers, voted in favor. Again, however, the Assembly declined to take up the measure.

“The problem is well known; The public is very supportive of a property tax cap and the same problem we have in Albany in many different areas is what’s holding this up,” said Suozzi. NYSUT leaders and others, such as Assemblyman Richard Brodsky, D-Westchester County, say a tax cap won’t cure the problem because it still would allow taxes to grow. For instance, Brodsky notes, a 4-point cap all but assures 40 percent growth in taxes in a decade.

But Suozzi argues it is necessary to set a limit to bring about a serious discussion on what else needs to be done — namely, finding efficiencies from things like school district consolidations and more shared services.

Klein said his combination of tax cap and circuit breaker is the answer, but the tax cap is a necessary component. Otherwise, too many people would be eligible for the circuit breaker to make it even remotely affordable. He calls for paying for the relief by extending the temporary income tax increase on high-earning New Yorkers, which is set to at the end after 2012, and by drawing on revenues the state hopes to raise by taxing the sales of cigarettes by Native American merchants to non-Indians. Both ideas come with political risks and uncertainties.

Suozzi’s panel also strongly recommended school district mergers, starting with any district with fewer than 2,000 students, which is more than half the state’s 700 districts. Suozzi said countywide districts would cut spending on administrators and back-office operations and encourage sharing of expensive services, such as special education programs.

But the school consolidation idea, regardless of the savings, ignites protest.

“That’s like a third rail with potential negative voltage,” said Assemblyman Steve Englebright, a Long Island Democrat who has partnered unsuccessfully with various senators on property-tax relief bills.

It is unfair to frame the Assembly as hostile to tax relief proposals, Englebright said, because members are reflecting the will of their constituents, most of whom do not want to see their school district or town merged with a neighboring taxing authority.

“That’s the irony,” Englebright said. “People are demanding that we lower their property taxes, but the first tool to go to is something they find distasteful, that they don’t want to be part of. What’s a legislator to do? Or a candidate for governor to do?”

Another relief strategy calls for getting more taxable property on the rolls. That means making it tougher for non-profit organizations, including hospitals, colleges and religious organizations, to gain tax-exempt status. A 2003 study by a panel led by Sen. John Bonacic, R-Mount Hope, and Sen. Betty Little, R-Queensbury, led to a series of bills such as one that would force nonprofits to annually prove their properties were being used for a purpose associated with the tax-exempt status.

Sen. Liz Krueger, D-Manhattan, updated the study at the end of 2009 and showed that the earlier report did little to stem the problem. Indeed, more properties came off the rolls, as lawmakers worked to get more and more of their constituents a break. Today more than $805 billion in property valuation statewide is off the tax rolls, leaving $1.8 trillion in valuation available for taxation in the state. Among the exempt properties was $26.2 billion belonging to religious institutions, according to the state Office of Real Property Tax Services.

Bonacic and Little argue that the laws are too generous to nonprofits. They cite people living in tax-exempt properties, who they argued should pay tuition to school districts, and universities that own Adirondack camps that escape taxation.

“We want to make sure the properties are being used,” Little said. “If they are not being used they should be on tax rolls or sold.”

Bonacic said a fix, such as a constitutional change to reduce the number of entities that get automatic tax exemptions, is beyond his grasp because the Assembly’s ruling Democratic conference is dominated by downstate members, who are unmoved by suburban and upstate complaints about property taxes.

Asked why nothing has happened with relief ideas proposed, Bonacic said: “I’ll give you two words: Shelly Silver,” the Manhattan Democrat who is speaker of the Assembly. Silver would not take calls on the issue for this story.

Klein, who served for 10 years under Silver in the Assembly, did not dispute Bonacic’s assertion. He responded that the speaker needs to take the concerns of non-New York City members to heart. “It’s a political issue as well as a legislative issue,” Klein said.

Others blame special interests with clout. Asked why tax relief bills die in Albany, Andrea Vecchio, a director of anti-tax group Long Islanders For Educational Reform, offered a formulation like Bonacic’s, but with a different villain: “Two words would work: teachers’ union, and the influence of.”

She said she’s been fighting for relief for 20 years and her outrage has made her take note of Carl Paladino’s gubernatorial campaign. Paladino calls for deep cuts in spending, rather than caps on tax growth.

“The fact that everybody’s for a tax cap scares the life out of me, because that means something’s wrong,” said Vecchio, of East Islip.

Berger thinks a commission for school and municipal consolidations is needed, which might operate like the one he led earlier this decade that dealt with the politically difficult decisions of hospital and nursing home closures. Lawmakers don’t like such commissions because they lose control.

“A fiat from a commission in Albany is the last thing this state needs,” said Richard Iannuzzi, president of the 600,000-member NYSUT, the state’s dominant teachers’ union. He said the state must work on an income-based relief measure for individual property tax payers and figure out a way to pay for it.

But paying for anything is a problem. Both Paladino and Cuomo are talking about attacking spending, noting multibillion-dollar budget shortfalls projected for years to come. Against that backdrop, property tax relief may be in line only after the deficits are erased.

“We’re all against higher real property taxes,” Canestrari said. “But I don’t know how you fashion a solution that either doesn’t cost the state a lot of money or doesn’t impose a huge burden on local governments.” He said he is warming to the concept of a circuit breaker somehow paid for with income taxes and other broad-based taxes, rather than from real estate assessments. But the state may not be in a position to pay for such relief for a while, he said.

“We can’t support the programs we have,” Canestrari said. “An issue this complicated has to be left to a new governor the first of the year. This is a three-month debate, at the least.”

As more people recognize the danger of ignoring the complex issue, efforts to shape a broad-based fix are drawing increasing attention. Some advocates echo Gioia Shebar, coordinator of Taxnightmare.org, one of several groups statewide joined as part of the Omnibus Tax Consortium. Shebar notes that New York’s dysfunctional government as a whole needs to cooperate.

“People are taking this issue with property taxes to do a lot of bad stuff,” said Shebar. “Teacher bashing, union bashing, public worker bashing, is not the answer.”

She and her husband, Charles, each in their late 70s, are retired New York City teachers, who relocated 15 years ago to Ulster County. They pay $9,600 a year in school taxes. The high costs mean their community cannot be as economically and ethnically diverse as the Shebars would like.

Her group likes Sen. Eric Scheiderman, D-Manhattan, who is running for attorney general, because he was an early supporter of the omnibus tax relief bill and one of the few Democrats to defy leadership and vote against the tax cap bill, which Taxnightmare followers describe as “fluff.”

Her group wants a circuit breaker for immediate relief and a total overhaul of the property assessment system. They also call for a serious look at tax exemptions, for more school consolidations and for a state takeover of the Medicaid costs borne by counties. Only with such a unified approach, Shebar says, can the problem be solved.

145 Responses

Good article. The major point is THE problem is the PROTERTY TAX burden.

More and more money is spent on schools with shrinking student populations.

Continued job losses, with the unemployed staying here with no job opporunities, means growing Medicaid burdens place on local property taxes which means more property taxes on small businesses compounding the job loss/lack of job creation.

Local elected officials, Republican or Democrat, have never been able to understand they need to limit other property tax based local spending and manage their local Medicaid and welfare costs by using comparatively inexpensive local property taxes to incent small business development. There isn’t enough competency and vision at the local level to leave Medicaid costs in the local property tax levy. Medicaid needs to be a purely State run and paid for program.

We are not going to get the big solution in one piece. Start somewhere. Start with a tax cap. Now.

This is an important story that everyone should read, so why is it formatted in a smaller font than other news stories and also has no blank lines between paragraphs? You aren’t making it easy on my old eyes.

We need to look at Paladino’s idea on this. He is the only one with the nerve to say we need to cut Medicaid spending. My heath plan does not cover orthodontics, but Medicaid does. We need to cut it down to a medically necessary plan. That is what is killing the tax payers of this state. If Jennings passes his 2011 budget and there is another increase in my property taxes, there will be another for sale sign in the neighborhood.

And then, there are the DOUBLE property taxes we all pay to utilities.

Invariably, the largest taxpaying entity in most burgs are the power and phone companies and in some, the railroads. Think about that the next time you complain about utility rates, and ask what’s in those rates.

We have to consolidate – consolidate school districts, consolidate local municipalities, consolidate state agencies.
Let local towns keep their names, & give fair representation in the newly formed municipalities, but we have to reduce the number of munis out there. This is not the 1800′s. Online information, telephone’s, email all reduce the need for so many municiple agencies. One municipality can manage large areas with modern technology, it is time to move into the new age. Personally, I’d like to see one town per county for most of upstate, but that may not work everywhere (ie large cities & towns).
Schools can also be managed by fewer administrators. Most of the important work at schools happens in the actual school, by the teachers, transportation, office staff, & Pronciples. How long will we sit by & let them keep cutting services in the schools without looking at the structure of the school district itself?
Merge DOT & the Thruway authority.
Merge all of the park agencies
Merge all of the children & senior service agencies
Merge all of the Social Service agencies
Further reduce the number of unemployment offices out there
Reduce the number of Moter Vehicle offices & provide more services on line

Oh, yes, remove most political appointies, turn those into jobs – if they are really needed, & let people apply for them so the best candidates can be selected.

I am sure there are plenty of other examples of agencies that we can merge.

Will any of the current State leadership do what it takes to save the state? We have a choice, not a great choice but a choice. Paladino has shown he does NOT have the mentality or ability to run the state, much less do what is needed to save it. It will be 4 years of WWF in albany while the state spirals down down down. Cuomo seems to have an idea of what we need to do, & he knows how to work within the law & the political establishment to make it happen. The question for me is does he have the will to make it happen?
It is really unfortunate the GOP could not produce one smart, articulate & not insane candidate, leaving thinking NYers with only two choices – not voting or voting for Cuomo.

Why didn’t the authors mention that just about 80% of every School District’s budget is salary and benefits for teachers and administrators? So that $25,000 spent to educate each student is misleading. In order to reform this runaway train the laws will have to be changed. Teachers in this state have to get raises and “step increases” BY LAW!!! And the gutless leaders in Albany aren’t going to vote to have their necks cut off at the polls. Bus drivers for the school districts even the janitors at our local town office all get retirement because they’re CSEA. The system was never designed to carry this kind of load. I figured out last year that I am soon approaching the threshold where I will have paid as much in property/school taxes as the dollar amount of the mortgage I took out on my home. The Parasites have nearly consumed the Host. What are they going to feed on when we all go under? These union people are so smart they’re stupid! How do they expect to get MORE of NOTHING? Any (union) math teachers want to field that one?

East Greenbush school budget 2005 – 65 million
East Greenbush school budget 2010 – 85 million
20 million more, 15 million to fund the pensions, 5 million for the kids (there are less students now than 5 years ago). Do the math, it is not about the kids, it is about the union pensions.

As commentor #7 stated, consolidation, consolidation. Merge DOT with Thruway, eliminate town and local highway departments, and have State and County DOT assume all maintenance responsibility for snow plowing and repairs.
Consolidate school districts, of course, at least beginning immediately with the administrative part of it.
Make the State Government accountable for every penny spent, and provide detailed PUBLIC RECORDS of where and why the hard earned tax funds were given to the many not- for- profit organizations, and “Public Development Authorities, many of whom haven’t been wisely using that public money for anything other than a Bernie Madoff style personal bank account.
Make the State and Local Legislators explain why they used tax payer moeny for some “special interest” in their home town that was more of a waste and of little benefit to most of the public.

it all due to the outrageous salary and benefit packages a majority of our children’s teachers are getting for PART TIME yes part work, a 5.25 hour day 182 days a year is PART TIME work.

I value teachers they have an very important role but why should a Nassau 3rd grade teacher (15 years service) make 109,000 a year arriving at work 8:25 pm, getting 80 minutes off- 40 for lunch, 40 for “PREP” (which is xeroxing a lesson from a book)and they walk out the door at 3pm.

where is extra help for struggling students does not exist parent need to get tutors if they cannot do it.

WORK A FULL YEAR and a FULL DAY, 3-4 weeks off (the school vacations chrisitmas, spring break winbter break) prep during the summer

We need to find some leadership that is ready to trim all the budgets of our gov’ts, all of them, small town to the federals huge and out of control spending. I just sold my home after being a home owner for 40 years, the best move I made, I was paying $7500 in taxes in small town USA, in Albany county. We need to Cut every part of the Budgets, and that is the way it is, everyone of the groups under these budgets are out of control. School districts, Libraries, Dot, Fire companies, rescue squads, Police dept, parks and recreation, etc etc etc, No whining no crying, we need to trim. It’s not just the school districts, its all and every part of the tax budget.
All these new Politicians want to cut taxes, rebates, and where do you think the $$$$ are going to come from to pay the bills, you never tell us how you are going to do it. because you need all the votes instead of pissing people off, Cut every bodies budget and tell them to deal with it OR we will find someone that can and will. Until this happens our Government’s are only going to put us deeper in debt, the next recession will be a disaster.
A huge and much needed start is our Senate, 30% pay increase, each one of you should be totally ashamed to take that, the pay scales for administration and the amount of them, serious out of control, We are in debt paying retirements from taxes, and have yet to see the real problems from those decisions made 40 years ago, was any thought given to what was going to happen in 30 to 40 years ????
Fire companies buying $400,000+++ rigs like they are toys, rescue quads buying $150,000 rigs , why can’t we repair the drive trains and body work for $50 grand, and wait for times to get better, I was very active in the fire service for 37 yrs and i bought this stuff, I am older now and see the alternatives. $3 to $5 million dollar stations ???? Police dept’s, Libraries, Parks and recreation, etc etc. We need the best, only the best?? Well our neighbors do it and have them, why can’t we??.
The first thought is to lay folks off, , there are other ways, Trim the budgets. We need to trim, We the public that supports the government’s are really tired of taxes.
To My Brother Firefighters, rescue squads, police dept, etc, I respect each and everyone of you, but, we need to start somewhere, we really do folks. I am not just picking on our Emergency Dept’s, all Agencies need to do the same.
Everybody at home trims to get by and now understands why we need to save a little, for Tomorrow !! Come on Folks lets run our Governments the same way, lets get out of Debt, better times will come, all in time. WE NEED TO DO THIS !!!!

The problem is no one seems to care about addressing the real issues behind all the taxes. Medicaid payments need to be reduced, welfare payments need to be reduced, education aide needs to be reduced.
Medicaid and welfare qualifications must be changed to make it harder to qualify. the 40% increase in welfare payments must be reduced. School districts must stoip relying state aid and stand on their own two feet. Taxpayers must vote for school boards who will cut costs such as holding teachers to zero based growth. teachers must pay more of their health care costs. Scholls have way too many electives. In tough budget times, schools should concentrate on core subjects and get rid of all the frills. The answer isn’t tax caps with circuit breakers. This is just another welfare program. The answer is making school districts more accountable.

It all boils down to location. If you live south of the magic 287 (Tappen zee Bridge), you matter. Everyone of us is in thier way. We live in thier plyyground (the catskills and ADK), want to ruin thier water, and so on. We exist to serve and help pay.

The solution is simple. If it were private enterprise, long ago, government would have gone bankrupt and new government would have replaced it. Abolish all local government, and start over. All new structure, people, new everything. School district lines were laid out 100 years ago, they do not make sense with modern transportation. Instaed of half the people wanting to get rid of the village, now half of them would need to say make it again. “Tradition based” aid distribution would be eliminated, the old places no longer exist. Now, brave state, go the next step: Eliminate most state aid. What is the benefit of the good people sending money to Albany to maybe have them send back to you? The maoney is still available to be spent locally. The reduction in government that looks at all the paperwork is a bonus.

The idea of taxing the rich has limited effect. Recent history lesson: Patterson said to the health care union basically, if you can find the new revenue, you can have a raise. That’s when the income tax was made even more “fair” for rich people: They were now taxed at the same rate as New Jersey was taxing them. Patterson cheered as some of the rich left the state! Well, the raise was fully paid, and only about 75% of the “new” revenue made it to the treasury. Guess where the rest came from. The rich who can leave, will, hopefully your doctor and plumber will stay.

The smaller local governments just do not have the stomach to stand up to the ridiculous. Clarkstown (just north of 287 in Rockland county) pays thier police chief over $300,000 a year. And they get state aid to help pay it. If the mayor had to decide how to pay that without state aid, maybe the decision would be different.

All wishful thinking. The bureaucracy is simply too large for people to fight. The only way it will change is to die from starvation (of money).

I am very surprised that this article was even published in a paper like the Times Union, because the TU typically seems to endorse a Left-Leaning editorial agenda. That the article receives headline status and seems to support a traditionally Right-Leaning argument surprises me even more. I guess New York really is going “down the toilet”.

Accountability is the issue. The public schools are not accountable, because their budgets and autonomy are not impugned despite poor performance. Schools are allowed to stay open, even when it is shown that students are not learning.

A person in the private sector would lose their job given similar circumstances. That is the source of this tax revolt: the tax payers (revenue generators) have no respect for the school unions (beneficiaries of the tax revenue).

It should be acknowledged that many of the teachers work very hard and take their jobs very seriously. However, the parents of too many students do not take education seriously, so they do not make their children study. Many parents actually believe that “it is not their job” to help their children with homework and research projects. Such parents should be strongly dissuaded from further procreation, to the point where such attitudes are no longer commonplace in our society.

It is the parents’ responsibility to make sure that their children learn how to read, write, form logical arguments, and understand basic mathematics. We must eradicate this stupid belief that schools are solely responsible for teaching children.

The bigger problem is that many parents are illiterate, innumerate, and/or cognitively-deficient, to the extent that they are wholly incapable of transferring any useful knowledge to their children, even with all of the money that is spent supporting the public school system.

The public schools in many towns and cities are glorified welfare camps/daycare centers. Shut the schools down, establish a voucher system, and then watch a stunning flight to quality. Then establish a hard-as-nails public interest campaign to reduce the birth rates amongst the poorest people in our state, with a specific emphasis on educating young girls to the dangers of having babies without any strong family unit and/or financial backing.

Go back and read what Daniel Patrick Moynihan wrote about in the 1960s. The guy was spot-on. Wake up.

It might only take one generation to reverse this demographic disaster.

Excellent story and I would like to see more of the same. My solution is to move to another state when I retire in a few years. So many are doing so. Who can blame them? I am sick and tired of living in a state where working people give, give, and give to individuals receiving entitlement programs who take , take , and take!!!

Why not also shrink government? Do we really need that many counties especially in the Capital Region? Do we really need 212 people in the legislature (62 senate, 150 assembly)? I’m not talking about those state workers who actually do something, but given the past performance of especially the senate it might be worthwhile to eliminate the senate entirely. In the end there would be no difference and legislature may just get more stuff done. Also, county governments could be changed to be plain service administrations with a chairperson and a vice as elected officials. City councils and town boards would send members as legislature. It would remove one layer of government that, sorry to say, at least in Sc’dy County does not seem to do anything. Other than Savage who ventures into the public once a year to shake hands I haven’t heard or read a single word of any of the others. Is this setup really needed to run county libraries, a roads department, and the other handful of services organized at the county level where each department has an expert manager at the top anyway?
Same for county sheriff services. States like Connecticut did away with that entirely and after the initial resistance and the “this will never work” talk it apparently works alright.
Also, anyone working for the state or legislature is to get the same benefits like any low level office worker. The big wigs at the top can do perfectly fine with the perks any entry level state job comes with – which is often still better than many of the non-government jobs in NYS.

In the end, lower taxes means less money to spend, so something has to give. Those affected will not like it (I don’t blame them) and point to others. One way is to share the burden across all and continuously reduce the budget over the next years by the same percentage for everyone until the tax burden reaches the national average. Any savings are to be passed down as tax cuts.
I am convinced that this will negatively impact services, but we can buy into luxury once we can afford it again.

I agree some municipal consolidation could help. Town governments seem dated and many Western States do without towns entirely. County governments could be responsible for all municipal services outside incorporated villages and cities.
However, it’s interesting how nearly every comment here advocates a “slash and burn” strategy toward schools, libraries, firefighters, medical care, etc. Cuomo and Paladino seem to share that sentiment (though they disagree on who and what gets slashed). It really is surprising that very few people seem to care or even know that the State handed $16 BILLION over to Wall Street last year. That would have easily covered the $9 Billion deficit. I’d rather we stop this corporate subsidy before even considering trying to figure out which schools and fire departments are just too “rich”.

It’s 2 p.m. and ONLY 20 oommnets posted?! Until a critical mass of people beging to feel enraged and truly revolt, the politicians and unions will continue to take full advantage. There’s NO hope other than to MOVE out of State.

The career politicians like Neil Breslin and Bob Reilly have failed to take aggressive action on this major issue. Rather than focus on the property tax issue these two politicians have focussed more on MMA Fighting and Parking issues in the City of Albany. It’s time to focus on the real issues. November 2nd, its time to take out the career politicians and replace them with Albany outsiders like Jennifer Whalen and Bob Domenici.

Former president of the American Federation of teachers, Al Shanker, was once quoted as saying, “I don’t represent the children. I represent the teachers.” This statement could not better represent the shameful offense happening in schools across our country.

-It is unfair: 2 next door neighbors with enormously different incomes pay relatively the same tax.

-It is a disincentive to property upkeep and improvement: if you remodel your kitchen for $15,000 you are then reassessed and will pay $15,000 again, over the life of the kitchen, in increased taxes. Similarly, if you keep your house as a dump, you pay less. We should be encouraging home remodeling and improvement, not taxing it.

-It is archaic: The property tax has been around since before the wheel was invented. We can figure out a better way to fund common services. Google “history of property tax” for a good article.

-It favors the wealthy: People with high incomes pay a proportionally smaller share of their income to property tax than lower income homeowners.

-Contributes to sprawl: When old farmland is assessed too high and the land-rich cash-poor owner is forced to sell the property is often developed. Usually as residential housing which creates a need for more services (more school kids, etc.). Unless the houses are priced high, the new property tax revenue does not cover the demand for new services. In my town this is $450,000 (the tax-break-even point for a new house). Most new houses here are not sold/assessed this high. The rest of the town then feels a tax increase.

- Destroys undeveloped and natural lands: see above. Also contributes to premature and poorly done logging jobs, which are then also taxed.

Kill the property tax now!! (BTW: I pay over 40% of my income to property tax).

I am also surprised to see the TU write this. Maybe they are starting to see the light. Finally an article that is truth…not left-wing-bs. I’d like to see more articles like this….maybe I’d start buying the TU again.

Wow finally a real look at what we all are feeling and living through. About time TU. As the fourth estate you finally did your job now do you have the heart to take on the culprits – the current Incumbents, Uions, and special interest. Only 40% of the people believe in the news you print NOW Is your chance to regain your creditability.

Gary right on. MadinGuilderland I agree this time around we need a new leaders that have a business background and are not career politicians. We need people who are it for us. I agree I am amazed the TU allowed the above to be printed. OUR challenge to the TU is will you part of the solution and not endorse the same old tired politicians. You are can be part of the solution this time around. I challenge you to step up and help us or you too will be irrelevant in all our futures. We need the all forces work for us or we are LEAVING>>>>>>>>>

80% of my tax bill supports the schools. Yours is probably similar. So, in NYS we have the best paid teachers in the state. A median salary of 65000/year for 9 months equates to 87000/year if the additional 3 months were worked. Is this even close to the median income? Nope, its more than double the median income in my area. With such good pay, you’d think NYS would be #1 in the country. Are we? Nope, closer to #20. In other states, my school tax would be closer to 40% of my tax bill. Why does NYS need so much money to run its schools. The extra dollars saved by less school spending would drive a stronger economy in NYS which should have one of the most vibrant economies in the nation.

If we don’t go after our legislators to change things, then we’re just as much the problem as they are.

In case you think public school teacher salary in the area isn’t inflated, compare what a private school pays for the same “work”. Look at the number of applicants that are available for every teaching position that opens up. It’s a desirable job – anybody that has one that doesn’t admit it is just trying to justify their excessive benefits and pay.

I will also challenge the TU to be part of the solution! They wonder why sales are down. Here’s the answer: 1) We’re all broke after paying our property/school taxes, and 2) We’re sick of the endorsements of the career politicians. TAKE BACK NY!

I am the current President of the Capital Region Builders and Remodelers Association and a very concerned taxpayer. High property and school taxes are a major hurdle to housing affordability and a grave concern to all our members. Some of my clients actually call the assessor to how much tax an addition will add to their tax bill. The tax problem is systemic drag on our local economy.

Once I have finished my commitment as President in December, I plan to take up the tax revolt idea (that some have already mentioned) very seriously. I have talked with leaders all over the Capital Region and there is much support for going to our towns and counties in 2011 and saying, ” We’ll pay what we paid last year for the next three years and that’s it.” Forget the tax cap. We can’t wait for Albany. We’ll make our own three year cap. That will give us some breathing room to recover from all the past tax increases. The Key is that we need a critical mass of taxpayers to band together and revolt.

I realize that the towns and counties are severely hamstrung by the state, but as they face revolt, which I expect will be fairly peaceful, the idea will become contagious. We have certainly given ample time for this to be worked out and they are not listening to us.

In 2012 we will turn our attention on all the State Legislators as everyone faces re-election again. Stout Hearts!

Ladies and Gentlemen this show was brought to you by NYSUT in conjunction with Democrats. NYSUT, a 600,000 member organization with annual revenues of over $90 million dollars runs this state and puts it’s hand further and further into your bank accounts every year. Property tax caps and responsible education spending are non existent in NY because of NYSUT and their democratic henchmen.

The force that shifted the legislature against tax reform was applied by public employee unions. Following the Senate vote, the NYSUT went to war. It suspended Senate endorsements for all who voted for the tax cap and threatened Assembly members with similar treatment. Along with other interest groups, NYSUT spent $1.85 million in anti-cap TV and radio ads.

The good news is that tax incentives work quickly and powerfully. Today San Francisco and Boston, for example, are considered “superstar cities.” But it is often forgotten that both were, like upstate New York, in decline for much of the post-World War II era. San Francisco’s population fell 12% between 1950 and 1980, and in the early 1970s it had a higher proportion of families with incomes below the poverty level than Albany, Rochester and Syracuse. Boston’s 30% population decline between 1950 and 1980 was slightly below Buffalo’s 38% figure, but it lost more manufacturing jobs than Buffalo over that period and its 1970 poverty rate was higher.

Since the 1980 census, however, San Francisco’s population has surged 14% and its real, median household income is up 35%. Boston’s population grew 5% and its real income 26%. How did they turn things around?

Both were high-tax jurisdictions that benefited from statewide ballot initiatives that suddenly made them friendlier to capital. Voters capped property taxes in California at 1% of market value with Proposition 13 in 1978. That forced San Francisco to cut its rate by 57% overnight and brought forth a tidal wave of investment, even amidst a recession. By 1982, inflation-adjusted city revenues were two-thirds higher than they had been before Prop. 13. Massachusetts voters passed Prop 2 ½ in 1980, forcing Boston’s property tax rate down by an estimated 75% within two years. Massive reinvestment, repopulation and urban renewal followed.

In upstate New York, local officials facing declining tax receipts will feel enormous pressure to hike property taxes in order to maintain spending levels. But that would drive property values lower, choke off investment, and exacerbate the crisis.

As California and Massachusetts showed a generation ago, cutting property taxes would be a much better approach. It would make upstate and western New York attractive to capital while also helping homeowners keep up with their mortgage payments. Indeed, local and state officials nationwide can institute what would probably be the most effective possible housing stabilization policy. But unlike a bailout, this tax cut remedy would likely be popular with voters.

NYSUT has long been a central actor in driving up property taxes by demanding ever greater spending on public schools. In the 2008-09 school year, New Yorkers (even excluding the Big Apple) will spend $18,768 per pupil, more than any state in the union and 50% above the national average. Upstate school enrollments have fallen 15,900 since 2000. Nonetheless, over the same period NYSUT has secured 5,000 new teaching and 7,400 new nonteaching positions.

Don’t hold your breath however. You have a $90 million dollar a year organization fighting it and politicians who can bought and sold carrying out their wishes.

NYSUT is the third legislative body in this state, to believe otherwise is foolish.

Your quote: “It is unfair: 2 next door neighbors with enormously different incomes pay relatively the same tax.”

How does income play into property taxes? Property taxes are based on the property/land. So, let me understand you: If someone making $100K is living in Loudonville in a 3,000sq ft house and their next door neighbor is making $40K in a similar house you think the person making $100K should pay a higher property tax? Why? Don’t they both enjoy the beauty of Loudonville, it’s services and the same beautiful home? Why should someone making more money pay more? The person making $40K chose to buy that home….perhaps they should have bought a lesser home since they have less income? Part of the problem is so many try to live above their means and then want someone else to pay for it. This has to stop…..

The number one thing we should do is eliminate the local burden that includes mandates forced on property owners from the state and federal governments. Pataki nearly killed every property owner by getting away with bragging that he eliminated/reduced state income taxes. All he did was shift the burden such as the state’s share of Medicaid burden to local property owners. Hardly a solution. Also, we should merge agencies and fold the public authorities into state agencies by function. For instance, take the Canal Corp. and Thruway Authority and merge w/Department of Transportation while eliminating duplicative administrative functions. Municipalities should be eliminated and taken over by the counties. Don’t kid yourself either, not everything is forced on by the state – much of the cost is but not all. Local elected officials love to blame the state to take the public’s attention away from their tax and spend philosophy. This article was long overdue and hope we will see many more to help bring pressure to lawmakers to fix the problem so we can have a better quality of life in New York State.

I feel it’s useless to complain….We may some how, some way, some day get a cut on property taxes, but the school district has a strangle hold on our pocketbooks. I live in a fairly modest home of about 1900 square feet that is taxed on 85% of it’s assessed value as of several years ago. This was $225.000. I just wrote a check to the town for school taxes to the tune of $4,236.60 and it should be noted I had a $491.00 star exemption. Seriously…can anyone believe this to be reasonable? It’s especially hard to swallow as I have no children being educated in the district. The property taxes are close to $1,900, which doesn’t feel too bad to me, but the school is more than double that. I wish I could move but realize if I want a better tax scenario, and still be reasonably close to a larger town, I have to move out of state. I see this as an eventuality actually.

@alsomadinguilderland #41….I feel your pain. Just wrote my check for $7,209….and I’ll write another one for $3,400 in Jan. for property taxes. Yup…$10,600 this year. 10 years ago when I bought my home they were $5,300 total per year. It’s madness!

Combining school district and religning to merge offices and responsiblities is the way to go. I come from the south originally and now am kind of stuck up here for the time being. Down there the school districts are by county not town to town. That way the responsiblities and office are more centralized to save money and resources. It is way better way to run things. Oh, by the way, my taxes were dirt cheap. What the heck was I thinking coming up here?

MadinGuilderland: This has nothing to do with living above means, that is not what this debate is about. Whether you make $12 million per year and live in a house worth $300,000 or you make $40k and live in the same house, you are still paying too much in property taxes in this state. I’m against the circuit breaker, thats a gimmick that shifts burden, thats why NYSUT wants it because it shifts burden and they don’t care who pays or in which form it is paid, as long as there is more for their taking. I’m for the root of the problem, unions having their way, democrats caving to them and massive medicaid and welfare spending.

If Troy is having trouble paying themselves Health Insurance and Pension Costs, guess what–then you don’t get them. Stop jacking our taxes up so you and your little buddy system get the best of everything.

The State is so broke, look at all the speed traps up and down the Northway. They’ve turned us into a police state to write tickets as fast as they can.

Teachers? I actually like teachers, but there’s lots of bad ones that need to GO. The public school system doesn’t work for a bunch of reasons, but charter schools do. Dismantle the State Board of Baloney, and bring on Charter Schools. That’s what they do in Europe, and their grades are WAY ahead of ours.

Bureaucracy upon bureaucracy upon bureaucracy doesn’t work, never has.

I am retired from Niskayuna, NY now living in SC. I lived in Niskayuna for 16 years and prior to that, 16 years in Averill Park. Niskayuna never saw a school budget it didn’t like. I never saw one come close to going down to defeat while I lived there. Votes weren’t even close. I had to get out after I retired or I would have lost my home. My property/school taxes were approaching $8000 when I moved 3 years ago. I’m sure they are higher now. My home in SC is 50 SF larger than my Niskayuna home. My taxes were $7000 less than Nisky when I moved here…and they have gone DOWN a little the past 2 years! Do you wonder why middle class are leaving NY?

I am a recovering New Yorker residing in Virginia. I left a few years ago originally for a job relocation and now realize that it was the best move for a number of reasons. This article reminds me why: I pay $550 a year in house property taxes (I do live in one of the lowest taxed communities in the State); by the way, I live on the Chesapeake Bay and get free trash disposal, too.

walt it is not so much the medicaid user’s it is the system itself, medicaid user;s can go to the e.r anytime with no copay even for a toothache… they can get free home delivery of medications so they do not have to walk to the pharmacy or drive. they do not have co-pays ..if medicaid made it a bit stricter to use medicaid that alone would save alot of money. medicare too..same thing..i have no healtcare myself as my job offers none.. i tough out illness .it is a sad world when people cannot have insurance but i represent those of us that do ..no one should be without health insurance even the lazy ones or the abuser’s..but medicaid should make it harder to use the insurance ..

to those that have moved out of ny or are preparing too ,keep us posted on the differences..and congrats on being ballsy enough to do what everyone else won’t do ..leave new york!

i have been planning to leave myself really soon to somewhere warm and peaceful..these days i consider myself lucky i do not own a home i rent this way i do not have headaches, or stress or worry, my landlord does..i live within my means with the basics, and still find it hard to live here..

people have always said to me why rent when you can own, i think these post answer that question, when my landlord can no longer afford this house and it sells im outta ny..

AMEN #19!!! You hit the nail on the head, though I feel the issue you’ve raised is only a portion of the problem. Let’s not just place blame on schools as there are MANY MANY facets to the problem of out of control property taxes- including duplicative services (how many authorities are there in NYS??), insane medicaid spending…this list goes on & on, but parents take note- YOU are responsible to ensure your children become productive members of society. I’m tired too of having my hard earned pay thrown out the window in the attempt to reach kids who don’t have consistant bed times, come to school not prepared & generally disrupt the learning environment!

Stop most of the exemptions….I live in a town of approx 1200 people….Ag exemptions alone are more than 6 million, then there are the schoo;s, churches, local and county properites. Railroads the thru-way etc, etc, etc……………

We sold our house last year and moved to an apartment. Saved $12,000 in taxes! Next stop will be a southern state in a few years. The problem is why some teachers are making $100,000 plus for a 10 month job with a lot of pure time off. When they are off customers aren’t calling. They’re off with no pressure, noi calling the office. The beginning teacher makes $35K – $40K? A 30 year teacher makes $100,000 for the same job? Cut the pay! We need a redo in the pay structures. In the private sector it’s called you’re fired. Government is just a business… buy from a better government business wherever that is.

If two houses side by side (are the same) and have tax bills of $5000 and one home owner has an income of $200,000 and the other makes $25,000 (this does happen) then the wealthy owner pays just 2.5% of their income in property taxes while the other owner pays 20% of their income in property taxes. This is what is unfair. There needs to be some reflection of “ability to pay” as this is how people are taxed out of their homes. The “circuit breaker” does this, albeit in a very cumbersome way.

comparing medicaid to regular insurance is asinine – the older population on medicare have extremely low fixed incomes and need the insurance such as orthodonics because they lose teeth more at older ages then 20 and 30 year olds.

Comparing working insurance to medicase is apples and oranges – the issue is the lack of businesses due to high taxes so the homeowner is left picking up the slack, The other is crooked politicians and the refusal to cut spending especially stipends and pork. Ask the Governor why in this last budget he increased spending for operations and fringe benefits by a billion dollars combined.

Not one reporter does their job and looks at the issues facing NY. We need an Anderson Cooper who can look beneath all the BS. News today is all about being the first and ignore facts and reasons why just post anything and quickly.

Parma #45: I totally agree….If you read Michaels post above I was asking him to explain why he thought someone that made more should pay more in property taxes. You are correct that the unions and dems are the root of the problem.

Property taxes create a system of Zoning by economic class. Basically, they way the system is strutured, the wealthy live in one area while the rest of the people live else where or the poor are funneled into the worst. In some situations, areas that were formerly for the poor, like waterfront of polluted waterbodies, change to high tax desireable places when the pollution is cleaned up and then the original residents are taxed out. The property tax system favors the wealthy this way and is discriminatory.

The problem is the voters. Who, after seeing their increased tax bill every year, continuously pull the lever for the nice man/woman who built the playground down the road. Case in point, is Mr. Bruno. Puppet of the special interests and whoever he could do a backdoor deal with. He would be voted in by a landslide if he ran this year.

Put a cap on what an employee from the State of NY can make. No school leader should be making $200,000 and the SUNY system should not be allowed to pay people $250,000 with housing allowances. Johanna Duncan-Portier just left the State Education Department and went to the SUNY system and received a large starting salary and then a raise saying she had new responsibilities. If a policeman or fireman’s overtime ever exceeds their base pay then some department leader should explain in writing why this occurred.

I live in Troy, and I read the other day that Mayor Harry is proposing a 5.5% increase in our property taxes….5.5? It’s insane. It’s gotten to a point that my husband and I really believe we need to leave the state. I don’t want to, this is our home, I was born and raised here and I’ve lived in several different states, but I’ve always called this one home. I just don’t see how we can make it here anymore. Between outrageous taxes and the looming property re-evaluations and increased taxing in our city, I just don’t think we can make it anymore. It’s a shame, because I think we are not alone, and those who do have a choice will probably choose to leave.

Low income people do not have it, plain and simple. This is not to say high income earners should pay proportionately more (though an argument could be made that they should). But the system, as it is right now, has lower income people paying a higher percentage of their income in property taxes.

Buy a smaller house you say…. Many people have owned their home for decades or generations and the demands of the market have shifted their property into a higher tax level. Why should someone have to pay exorbanent taxes just because some fool from downstate has millions in disposable income and wants upstate property? So yes, we need to even the playing field and that means bringing down the perscentage of income low-earners pay in property taxes which inherently means raising the percentage of income high-earners pay. In the end the two will be closer in percentage but further apart in dollars. Doed this make sense.

BTW: I pay over 40% of my income in property taxes for a 1100 sqaure foot house built in the 1930s on 2 acres. Yes, totally unfair.

There is going to come a time when the people in this state will start holding the rest of the assembly accountable. If NYC is going to keep electing Shelly Silver, the most powerful person in NY, then it will be up to the assembly to get rid of him as speaker. Otherwise nothing in this state will change. Also, until medicaid is reformed, and the unions are brought back to this planet, property taxes will continue to go up. Amazing that New Yorker’s all get it but nothing gets changed!!

All state employees should be transferred to 401K plans, including teachers. Build up your own retirement plans like most of the private sector does ….. that would save tax payers a bundle. So, you go through some court battles over the situation, it will cost less in the long run. No more pension plans for this state, can’t afford it !!!

The public employees took raises that they shouldn’t have, could have passed on them for one year to see how the State worked out its’ woes. Public employees and teachers just don’t give a damn !! They all just want more no matter how many people move from this state. This state is on its way to IMPLODING because of greed !!!!

I find it especially disturbing that some commenters find it acceptable to stick it even more to the poor. Praise for Paladino’s “idea” to reduce Medicaid services is mean and thuggish. Ever tried to find a doctor willing to take Medicaid patients? Know how many poor people actually get Medicaid? Get your facts straight.

The commenter suggesting that we restore Pataki’s tax cuts for the wealthy is a fair and balanced one. Pegging taxes to home ownership is stupid in itself. It targets the poor and middle class and permanently forces them to rent instead. TAXES SHOULD ALWAYS BE TIED TO INCOME; it’s pathetic that they aren’t!

no matter, those having gold make rules, those making rules get closer to gold. Government is of, by and for politicians. There tenure depends on how much more they give to 14% of freeloaders. Who, of course, have their own entities asking for more.
Come time when money runs out. Never realized how expensive NYS is to live in until we left! Another point made is upstate is made to pay for downstates political lergesse. What happened? Industries left when they were being used as cash cows for taxes. But, don’t complain, when money runs out, rich will survive!

I own a home and two years ago I received a letter from my mortgage comany stating my taxes were going up $300 a month, due to school tax increase. NO slow increase, no two months notice, no time to prepare for a HUGE hike. I managed to have that reduced to $200 a month barely making ends meet. A year to the day I received another letter stating my escrow was increasing an additional $50 per month and days later another letter stating my flood insurance was increasing. In one year that is over $350 a month in tax increases I can not afford. Renting looks more appealing. I may have to increase my rent $25-$50 a month that I can afford not $350 a month. I only owe $68,000 on my house but pay nearly $1,000 a month. You do the math. I am getting taxed out of my home. I live on a private road so I don’t receive the benefits of my roads being repaired or plowed I have to pay for that! My home’s value decreased $30,000 in the last two years – where is my tax decrease?

We need to get rid o all the layers of government in this state — why do we need all these villages and towns? Let’s look at county wide governance. Also, consolidate school districts. Might not be palatable to everyone, but you can’t have your cake and eat it to.

And to all the people talking about moving out “while they can,” why bother writing in? You’ve made your choice to cut ties and run. Leave the forums for those willing to stick around and do the hard work of actually “fixing” this mess.

@ #32 “For those thinking CUOMO–he supports teacher tenure”
For the love of all things holy stop this misconception about teacher tenure. The ONLY thing tenure does is give teachers the right of due process. It prevents non-duty related and punative firings, and ageism. That’s ALL. Yes there are some teachers out there that don’t deserve it. Don’t throw out the batch because of a few bad apples. The ONLY thing protecting bad teachers is administrators that don’t want to take care of the problem. A poor performing teacher can be removed at any time due to said poor performance. It does take a while but it can be done.
The ONLY reason bad teachers get tenure is because of an administrator not doing their duty. That’s it, period end of story.

@ #63. They do, plain and simple. All teachers in New York are required to pay into their own retirement system for a minimum of 10 years which is about 1/3 to 1/2 of the amount of time they work.
I noticed another post on here that said a beginning teacher makes $35-40,000 and one teaching 30 years make $100,000. 100k is a bit of a stretch. That may be true in the affluent suburban and large urban districts, but there are fewer of those than there are small-medium suburban/rural districts.
Here’s a question though, in the private sector isn’t pay comiserate with experience? Would ANYONE be able to survive without livable wage increases? The average district across the state gets about a 2% increase per year…that’s cost of living (well not anymore actually). Yes the difference is raises in the private sector are based on performance indicators. You are all in luck that is what’s coimng down the line for New York teachers. Up to 40% of their evaluation will be based on standardized test scores. That’s fair, that’s about the percentage of factors a good teacher has control over.

There is a lot of simple minded teacher bashing going on here. Please name one other profession requiring a Graduate level education where people are expected to make lower middle class wages? Better be careful what you wish for – no one will want to teach.
Most teachers in NY are paid a fair wage for their level of education & workload. The Unions & School Districts have agreed to retirement & health plans that are not sustainable – these things have to change.
However, it is sad to me to see the bullies out there ‘shove’ teachers around – you should be ashamed. Typical. You think you got where you are all on your own? BULL – most of you went to public school, & were helped along the way by teachers.

I am a 26 year old landlord and pay over 20k in taxes a year. I understand its a buisness but come on. All the city of albany does is try to fine the tax payers with crap like putting out to much garbage. Just so they can justify paying some toothless bum 80k a year to drive around, waste gas, and snap pictures of peoples backyards. I cant wait to see this state in 5 years when there wont be any money to pay the state work force or pay “assistance” to the people who should be homeless but somehow have 50 inch flat screen TV’s in the back of their BMW’s.

…and after I posted a link to this video– http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV01mUCflvw
…more comments about how teachers are paid too much.
Want to know what’s wrong with New York? It’s that people get more angry about some food stamp recipient buying too much ice cream in front of them at the store than about $16 billion in tax refunds being handed to Wall Street.

Everyone wants to blame the school teachers and other public employee unions for the problems within this state. Lets get real, while a few people at the top (often political appointees) make unreal wages, the rest of us do not (excluding some downstate teachers). I have worked for my local government for over 20 years and still do not make what I could in the private sector but I stay because I like the work that I do ( I have watched many come and go to higher paying jobs elsewhere in the private sector). From my position within County government I can tell you that Medicaid is breaking the local tax payer. Medicaid was designed to provide basic health care for those unfortunate individuals that had none and needed it. But what the Federal government requires is very different from NYS provides. I have spoken with those less fortunate individuals that have moved INTO NY because our Medicaid is better than where they have moved from. I do have very good insurance through my employment, but I also pay heavily for it (it is also one reason that I do stay at my lower wage position). We all need to stand up and be counted and tell the people that we send to Albany and Washington that those that work and pay for it deserve good health care and those that do not pay for it deserve basic health care.

I believe that Albany also needs to stop handing out money to special interest groups in the form of Member spending. What is this? Can we not read between the lines that this just incumbent’s paying certain locals off to keep getting re-elected? Do we really need a new civic center or theater? Do the taxpayers of NY need to fund some commercial development in Albany or Schenectady? I these tough times the government needs to stop spending! You can call it stimulus, but really isn’t it just some rich promoter getting richer and the taxpayers getting poorer? I look at our local project that has been run into the ground and short on funding to complete, why was it started with taxpayer dollars in the first place? Now they just keep coming back to the well looking for more saying “you helped us get started, wouldn’t it be waste to not see it through and we need more taxpayer money to get the job finished.”

Local governments can be responsible; my town taxes have barely gone up in years, my county taxes go up mostly because the local Medicaid bill goes up by millions each year. Both governments replace things when they are broken or it is feasible to do. They pay fair, but not unreasonable wages and work with what they have. They have eliminated a few positions, but only a few. Be real, we blame our teachers for the education system but most all of them that I know work far more hours than the 7-8 they are in front of the classroom. Many spend hours at home preparing and updating curriculum, writing tests and then grading papers. If you want the best and the brightest to be teaching our students, then you will have to pay them accordingly. Teaching used to be thought of as an admirable employment, but today is looked on by many as merely leaches. If this attitude continues those that would make good teachers will not enter the field and we will watch our education system fall further down.

OK, now I’m confused. I thought I was in favor of a tax cap but now I’m not so sure. Someone raised the issue of this being a gimmick so I looked at Cuomo’s Tax Cap proposal. It clearly states a 2% limit
on the TAX LEVY. For schools the TAX LEVY is what’s left over after
subtracting other sources of revenue (state aid,federal aid,fees, surcharges,sales taxes,etc…) from the School BUDGET. The remainder is the portion attributable to Real Property ie the TAX LEVY.
The real problem is runaway BUDGETS. If it’s not addressed then a town or school still could increase a BUDGET while reducing the TAX LEVY by making up the difference through another revenue source.
Shouldn’t the goal be to reduce taxes. It is not any good if my property tax is decreased when state aid (comes from your state income tax) or a sales tax is increased thereby offsetting my real property tax reductions.

The TU reporters are mistaken in blaming NYC legislators for high suburban taxes. New York City has one of the most sophisticated property tax systems in the country – every property is reassessed every year, and there is mandatory reporting of income and expenses for all commercial properties.

Many suburban municipals, by contrast, NEVER reassess, and local assessors don’t have the proper information to accurately value properties in their town. NYS municipalities also have to deal with school districts that overlap town lines, which creates ‘equalization’ problems.

Still, the assessment problems aren’t the nub of the issue, which is that county, municipal and school district budgets keep rising. No tax reform is going to lower tax bills while the budgets rise.

We should also recognize that property tax is a tax on wealth, NOT a tax on income. If you own an expensive house, you should have a high tax bill. Your income has nothing to do with it. Start adjusting a wealth tax to compensate for personal income, you’re bound to create a messy, unfair system. And here we are.

before we go throwing teachers etc under the bus lets not lump them all in together. We also shouldnt assume that the hours you (may see) see are the only hours worked. I am not a teacher myself but I do know more than a few.

- Some go in 7-7:30 and leave 3:30-4:00 which is as long as a normal work day.
- Some stay for after hour activicites
- Some may leave at 3 or 3:30 but do all of their grading/preparation etc at home.
- many use the summer as time to keep their skills/curriculum up to date.
- most of them take time in the summer to inventory what they have in their class room and to prepare an equipment order for the coming year.
- most, if not all of them spend quite a lot of time addressing parents concerns via email and phone etc throughout the ENTIRE year not just the school year.
- many of you dont want to spend that kind of time with your own children let alone imagine dealing with 20-30+ of them for 30-40 hours a week.

lets not forget the significant time/financial investment it takes to get a teaching degree/certification etc.

I think its real easy to assume teachers only put in certain hours in a day and in fact there may be a few who put in as little effort as possible but there are plenty that work their collective tails off because they actually care for many of the children whos own parents … really dont.

i also implore people to not judge every child teacher parent interaction based upon your own individual experience. Because your child behaves doesnt mean the 29 other children in the classroom do. Ask any teacher… especially city districts… how many hours they spend on actual instruction and how many hours they spend on teaching your kids how to behave like something other than animals. (this isnt directed at everyone but there are a LOT of people who seem to think that because their children are well-behaved that everyone else’s children are as well. That is FAR from the case… ESPECIALLY in city districts. Not only do you wind up over taxed but you also have TIME stolen from you by ill-behaved children who have to be constantly policed.

#37 – You mentioned how CA & MA have solved the problem by lowering taxes, what do these states have in common? The voters can put an initiative on the ballot and circumvent the politicians who are beholden to special interests. NYS is broken and will remain broken until the voters can take back control!

IMHO the situation is plain and simple, at voting time we are not given any good options, our politicians need the support of the powerful lobbies to get elected and enough like minded politicians need to be elected to have any effect so we are stuck with a system that has no connection with the actual voters. The voters need to have the ability to place initiatives directly on the ballot (such as was done in both MA and CA) because our politicians can’t do it for fear of loosing their financial support.

Unfortunately I don’t think there is a single politician in the state that would support the right of our citizens to petition a ballot initiative, basically the right of direct democracy. It would take a concerted effort to make this the litmus test for candidates to the state legislature. Start demanding this of your representatives!! If they say no – then don’t vote for them.

The only other opportunity would be a State Constitutional Convention – this question is next scheduled on the ballot for 2017. Unfortunately only the elected representatives can bring up an amendment to the state constitution – not the people. Again, this would have to be a litmus test for the delegates to the convention.

Unless direct democracy becomes the number one issue on election day then I’m afraid in NYS we are stuck with a system that will forever be run by special interest groups and not by and for the people. If you are a student of NY history you know that Albany has perfected the art of corruption and broken government over the past 200+ years, it is systemic and there is little hope to change it. We the people need to take the power away from the politicians when they don’t have the will to solve the problems.

I can only hope that the TU would take up an article on this topic, it’s not a liberal/conservative issue, the issue is giving the voters the power to assert their will when the politicians are unable or unwilling to.

Why should teachers or State employees pay into their pension for ONLY 10 years? Why? As long as you are working, they should be contributing to their pension. Take the burden off the tax payer. As I also mentioned, there shouldn’t be Pension plans for teachers and State employees, you should be under 401K plans. That would take a great burden off of the tax payers.

The property tax issue is indeed a nightmare but the real question is will enough voters have the courage to wake up and do anything about it?

Unshackle Upstate has been calling for a property tax cap for months now and unless they care to only serve one term, the incoming class of statewide and legislative electeds would be smart to make a tax cap their top priority.

NYS legislators have proven that they cannot be counted on to control spending because their votes are bought and paid for by lobbyists, including some of the biggest lobbies there are – teachers unions. DS (comment #82) hit the nail on the head. If the citizens of NY want to control spending then they have only one means – referendum voting.

Without referendum voting the citizens are reliant on the same people that got us into this financial mess to get us out of it. The proposals from that crowd, e.g., caps, circuit breakers, etc. are a ruse; the same special interest groups will see to it that their members and causes keep getting what they pay our legislators to do, on their behalf. In the meantime, we go deeper and deeper into the financial abyss.

Frankly, I have lived in NY too long to expect anything less than poor performance from NY government so I have a plan that I know will lower my tax burden … move. Lets face it, you could throw a dart at a map and almost certainly choose a state that has a lower tax burden than NY.

To COntinually Disgusted. I can’t say I disagree with you. I only know a lot of teachers from having family members that are so I’m going off that. From what I know, more CHOOSE to pay in for more than ten years. They are only REQUIRED to for 10. Also MOST still privately open a 401k or 403b to take care of themesleves in retirement

I wonder where all the NYS Lottery money is going that was earmaked to go to the schools to reduce property taxes during the budget process. My school taxes have never remained the same or gone down…..just up up and away!

When you notice that you have dug yourself into a deep hole, you stop digging. But New York continues to dig deeper and deeper. Business leaves in droves, the people not as fast because they can’t sell their houses. I just thank the lord I moved out when I did. Now, I just read and smile. Keep electing those Democrats and paying those taxes New Yorkers. You deserve it!

The State doesn’t make it easy for school districts to trim their budgets. They continue to send unfunded mandates down the line and force the tax payers to shoulder the burden.

For example the state just changed the cut scores for the 3-8 grade ELA and Math tests in order to have our kids be more prepared for the next level (aka. Help qualify for Race to the Top money). They made the bands for 3′s and 4′s (Highest grades) much smaller and they expanded the bands for 1′s and 2′s (lower grades) It is state law that you must give AIS (Academic Intervention Services) to all students that score a 1 or a 2.

While they did give the schools a year reprieve on this subject next year schools have to teach this.
Many local schools went from having to serve 20-30% of children to having to serve over 50%. That means they have to hire more teachers at a cost of 80k per teacher (benies included). What is the district supposed to do cut art, sports, and music to offset this cost? The whole education industry needs reform from funding, teaching, administering, and serving.

Now we are going to cap taxes and keep the mandates. Next year there is going to be another round of school layoffs (lowest paid and youngest first) and tax increases as NYS pushes school funding onto the land owners. Where do we beging to fix this mess.

One other thing that disturbs me is the 60% approval stipulation to override Cuomo’s 2% cap. Will these be the same people voting that agreed this spring on approving 92% of the school bugets in NYS. The 40 year average approval of school budgets is 85%. In 2004 school budgets were raised an average of 8% and yet still 85% were approved.
This does not build confidence in school tax relief. Seriously, what’s the average turnout for these vote (I admit I’ve never participated)?

I just read that in Mass. (which already has a cap) taxpayers were surprised that in a down housing market taxes were higher than last year. According to the article voters approved to override quite a number of budgets so who really is to blame.

Don’t get me wrong there is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed and the circuit-breaker is not the answer but unless the budgets are directly addressed I don’t have much confidence in the CAP solution either.

I agree #88 almost all of our immediate family and almost all of our friends have sold and left NY.. As the taxes escallate even more and more jobs leave NY its going to get even harder to sell and get out of NY..

The back and forth about teachers and their pensions is quite amusing here. Think about it like this: Is there a single private industry job that you can be guarenteed job security for life after a mere three years of good work? Then, once you decide to retire after going through the motions for 30 years, the company provides you with 70% of your income, which can be upwards of 70k annually?

Our education system needs to be revamped as it’s our future. To attract high level talent out of college, you need to maximize salary, not long term benefits. Do away with pensions, and offer 50,000 starting (both cost about the same). Furthermore, make teachers earn their pay increases, I have to earn mine!

WAKE UP New YORKERS, YOU ARE BEING SCAMMED!! GET OFF YOUR LAZY ASS AND VOTE!! Soon all the hard working honest people who pay there taxes and go to work every day to earn there money will get sick of not having savings and will leave NY. It is already happening. You can build all the shiny roads and fancy state offices you want but it won’t help the matter. Then all that will be left will be bottom feeders, dead beats, and the unionized government suffocating itself when the private sector that pays taxes and creates jobs disappears like it is already. NY is committing suicide and no one in charge wants to act on the signals. Taxes are the knife cutting the throat. You know a community is in trouble when it looks to legalize more and more gambling for revenue and instead of helping businesses to grow you tax the shXt out of them. Wake up NY! Vote before they take your house for failure to pay taxes. There is no one answer so pointing fingers won’t work. Fight the corporate/union machine and get your government back to work for you.

Schenectady laid out a school increase of nearly 6 % so that they could fund Chinese language at the secondary education level. Do they even know what is wrong with this proposal? Education should be provided at the basic level for all- this includes Reading, math, science and above all English. If the parents want to fund this, let them pay for it. Would it not make more sense to have school year round with the basic education prerequisites and then some sort of on the job training like Boces(yes, I said the B word)or tradesman internships, this way we can get skilled labor back in the workforce? Shortly after Stratton took office, he gave himself a raise. Currently, there are 3 county government officials that make greater than $ 100, 000/year salary. Here is a great idea, how about lowering taxes- this will then have people returning to the area which there therefore increases the number of people that you can tax propertuies for, thereby increasing consumable goods sales and supporting local sales tax base. I never wanted children and did not every have children- why am I funding someone elses kid to get an education or supporting for that kid. My taxes should be a less if I have no kids in school. Here is a big question- Why am I paying taxes if I have no say in how I want that money spent. Bottom line-I don’t want to be paying for some kid to learn Chinese, especially if they already have a poor grasp of the English language.

The problem is the property tax system itself. It is the most unfair tax of all and can NEVER be made fair. People are being taxed right out of their homes. The schools, town officials, etc. have to stop using property owners as their own personal ATM machine. Market value is a joke – it is all decided at the assessor’s whim and we are all at risk.
Time to get rid of it altogether and raise the sales tax 2%. Attorney Pat Quintilian has a new book out about how corrupt the property tax system is at http://www.propertytaxrights.com Everyone needs to wake up and demand that this property tax nightmare comes to an end.

I am a far left independent voter and I think the property tax as a school funding source should be completely eliminated. Completely. Make it an income tax, and or consumption tax. Taxing bedrooms and bathrooms to pay for schools makes no logical sense whatsoever. None.

Yeah to the TU for this article. I stopped buying the paper, but with more articles like this, I may reconsider.

I have lived here all of my life. I don’t plan to relocate at this time, but I am very sad by what NY has become.

Medicaid needs limits. I work in healthcare and it amazes me the waste that goes on.
As for teachers-you work half a year, the pensions are insane, the failing schools show you can’t continue to throw money at the problem.

How does these states,towns and Cities that do not charge Property taxes manage? Is there anybody in our politcal Govt Intelligent to find out ?? Maybe they are a I Need instead of I want run govt. This Is NY and we deserve the best, yea right, four more years, I am heading south, bye bye NY.

I don’t agree with those people calling for the elimination of property tax. First of all, you do realize that it’s just one source of revenue for municipalities. Here are the most current fiqures for real property portions of overall budgets (from OSC Data):
Schools = 41%, County = 19%, and Town = 46%
These are averages for all municipalities and there is quite a difference between towns. In some towns property tax isn’t even the largest share, state aid is (major source for which is state income tax).
There are major flaws with any source. Sales Tax sounds nice since everyone pays it but it is extremely volitile and not very reliable and is regressive (low income family pays more as a percentage of their income). Income tax also sounds good but also is volitile. Is it fair that a family with 4 kids and earning $40,000 pay half of a single couple with no kids just because they earn $80,000?
Besides it’s the budgets that are the problems. Out of control spending by all taxing jurisdictions needs to be reined in.

WHY HAS MY PAY NOT INCREASED IN THREE YEARS…
but congressmen got a raise this year, last year and the year before that and they DECIDED on how much they got.!!!????!!!

WHY HAS THE COST OF FOOD AT MY LOCAL PRICE CHOPPER INCREASED 30%….
but the farmers are still crying poor – where’s this money going?

WHY ARE YOU RAISING MY PROPERTY TAXES YET AGAIN….. see line 1

WHY ARE THE PRICES OF GAS GOING UP AGAIN????

WHY CAN’T THE BONEHEADS RUNNING THIS STATE UNDERSTAND THAT WE CANNOT AFFORD TO LIVE HERE ANY MORE BUT WELL KEEP SPENDING AND GETTING MORE AND MORE IN DEBT INSTEAD OF FIGURING OUT AN EFFECTIVE COST AND SPENDING CUTTING PLAN.

I live in Niskayuna and my taxes went up a whopping 61% last year; at this rate, I will be forced to eventually sell the house that I’ve lived in for the last 20 years and move to an apartment. We have a Taj Mahal of a high school, an arrogant school board and town supervisor, and no end in sight. Leaving the state is getting more appealing each year when I open up that tax bill.

ATTN: In_The_Trenches (#100 and #68) all workers areprotected from these forms of discrimination, it is within federal labor laws.

Whether it is tenure or adminstration personell, or both, the problem lies in the fact we do not have effective teachers in our teaching system. Private industry has realized that maximizing short term benefits is how to attract good talent. The public sector lags behind and finds themselves funding astronomical pension funds that are only growing. Then when they need money they don’t look at the bottom line, they simply raise taxes. Putting a strain on not only residents, but local businesses by taking money out of the local economy.

Something has to give, and frankly I don’t see it being corrected through elected officials. Something fundamental needs to change.

I lived in a good school district in NY, but the schools here in the West seem to be at least as good. Of course, it depends on which school districts irrespective of which state.

There are lots of great things about NY, but the totally inept government really makes it tough for non-government employees to live there. Will it get better? Read Paul Grondahl’s book on Teddy Roosevelt; he became governor to clean up the mess in Albany that sounds very similar to the mess today. Nothing changed in the 30 years I lived in NY except more taxes and more inept government. Unfortunately there is no reason to expect that things will get better (unless a half-crazy governor with a baseball bat gets elected).

Consolidate Towns, villages, and counties. Eliminate Sheriffs departments except for the purpose of enforcing judgment and have that paid by the parties to the actions. Consolidate school districts into the town/village/county borders and cap them on taxes. Stop using prisons as an ‘upstate employment gambit’ they cost us more than they bring in. They are another union scam. Consolidate courts. Increase filing fees for civil actions to reflect their true costs (thereby control frivolous litigation). Increase the fees for corporate and commercial cert filings – mostly this is a way corporations have extorted and played the system to shift the burden to the individual home owner payer.

. . . And, most importantly of all:

TAX ALL RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS!! Mosques, churches, synagogues, the works. The constitution guarantees freedom of religion – not freedom from paying the fair share. There is no way I should be forced to bear the burden of another man’s belief by subtraction from my real estate tax pool, with the extra share going to me to pay.

Hubby and I moved out of NY 5 years ago after retiring. No children so could move anywhere. Moved to Tennessee. No income tax, low property taxes, NO school taxes (school money from sales tax of 9.75% but you control how much you spend and are taxed on and tourism helps a lot there too), very low utilities (TVA reduces rates during good times and mine average $250 month which includes heat in winter and a/c in summer). Now I felt I got a $10,000 a year raise just leaving NYS. It goes in my pocket now instead of NY politicians. Best move we ever made.

Our assessment is at 100% of value and has been for 15 or more years. Values are reassessed every 5 years. The last reassessment resulted in my assessment going up 300% from the full value set five years before even though no changes had been made to the property during that time. They are taxing me out of my home. A more fair way of raising taxes must be created. Just because your property value goes up it does not mean you have more money to pay higher taxes. Usually your income does not triple over five years like taxes can. Taxes should reflect the level of services available or used by the tax payer. Everyone in a taxing district should be taxed the same since they all have the same roads, schools, government, etc. Let’s make it fair and not tax people out of their homes!

The American Revolution was triggered by the fact that the colonists were taxed but had no representation in parliment. I can’t help but look at NY in it’s current state, and think the same thing. We, the people, are taxed and taxed and taxed, and though we have ‘representatives’, in effect we don’t because we have no way to hold them accountable save a vote every few years. In the mean time tne NYSTU, and our career politicians (on the public dole), vote themselves raises and unsustainable benefits packages, without any real need to perform. Do you wonder how this will continue? Property taxes will continue to be the ATM of the unions and elected elite, people will flee the state, businesses will close. So when does the tipping point hit? When does the back break of the property owners to where we can no longer afford to support the broken glutton that is our government? What tells us we’re there already? Is it the glut of unsold homes, the astronomical tax hikes without an recourse present, people working half time trying to justify it by saying it’s full time (not even close, kids), cadilac medicaid that attracts the indigents from other states? One poster suggested revolt, and honestly, at this point, I think that’s our only option. Except it’s not an option because we’re bear the burden of punishment by law. Where is the accountability for our elected elite, though? And the Unions? The NYSTU owns this legislature, and will most likely own the incoming ones as well. I hate the thought of leaving this state, but when my husband can retire, I’m an RN, we can go anywhere, and we most likely will leave. Because I don’t see a realistic end. There is no mechanism for stopping the madness, no way the people of this state can stop the rampant spending and bad decision making that hits us in the wallets. I’d like to see every incumbent strung up come election time, I don’t care what political party line you fall under. I’d like to see them sweat, and then hit the bricks when enough angry voters use the only means we have available for accountability. But historically, NEW YORK KEEPS VOTING THEM IN INSTEAD OF VOTING THEM OUT. If you think your elected officials represent your interests, refer to all the excellent posts about NYSTU, special interest lobbies, Medicaid, political raises, and pork. I would like to see the people be able to hold local schools and towns and villages and the state accountable for untenable property tax raises, be able to stand up and say “NO MORE”. I would like to see property values hold rather than drop because of overtaxation, job loss, etc. But I don’t think I’ll see that, not in this state. Apathy is too prevalent. All I can say, is, exercise your one and only means, (and a weak means that is indeed), of accountability: vote, and vote well. It’s November or Never.

First, we must be careful not to paint every district and every teacher with the same brush. Anger over where we are today is well justified, but the district in which I teach has offered 0% growth budgets over the past two years, and has very strong test scores. We are neither failing taxpayers or students. It is outrageous to essential blame every teacher, every union, and every budget.

Second, every year we have NYS funding cut AND are given more unfunded mandates. We must reform school funding, but can’t ask districts to do things that are not paid for. The burden will move to property holders, and that’s what put us where we are today.

Sad but true is the middle class is who suffers here. You have the lower class that gets everything handed to them, and the higher class that has no worries. The middle class gets the brunt of it all. Not enough pay, high bills, high taxes it’s too much. I often wonder how officials can sleep at night, because I know that they too see the same amount of for sale signs as I do. To know that I have to go to the store and hope that the checkout line is not embarrassing with the oh no I went over on budget is sad. Where is the middle class help. All we ever hear are promises that are never fulfilled. I hope that all the officials can sleep well at night knowing that there are millions of New Yorkers that will soon lose everything that they have strived for in life.

I enjoyed my life in Albany and would have stayed after retirement, but then I got hit w/$5500 in local property taxes on a small, old middle class home on a teeny city lot. What bothered me most was there was no end in sight to the tax increases and, in 10 years, it would have been $10,000. Just completely ridiculous!

Now I pay about $600 in taxes for a new townhome with 300 sf more in Charleston SC and the quality of life is pretty darned good. My heat/ac run about $85/mo., state income and sales taxes are similar, gas is about $2.45/gal. There are no toll roads, etc., etc., etc.

Lets place the blame for high taxes where it belongs – the citizens of New York. We are the people who give our legislators the power to govern us. And lets be honest here, year after year we keep voting for the same people or new people with the same old agenda, practices, etc.

To those who want to blame the Democrats and to those who want to blame Republicans for all our problems I would like to remind you that there is no party or legislator who stands above the rest, when it comes to good government.

Too many of use think “our guy is fine; its the rest of them that are the problem.”

A recent and good example of this misguided thinking is the less than exemplary behavior of former Senator Joe Bruno that resulted in his arrest and conviction; it is an irrefutable fact that he used his office for personal gain … and there are still people singing his praises. That means that among the citizens of New York who paid for former Senator Bruno’s efforts to line his pockets there are many who still think he is one of the best legislators that ever held office in New York.

And, just to prove that no party is without fault, please be reminded how our current governor got his job; Governor Patterson took office when his predecessor, former Governor Spitzer resigned when his pay-for-play relationship with a prostitute, while serving as Attorney General and Governor, came to light.

And you wonder why NYS legislators behave the way they do?

Do you want lower taxes, more jobs, etc.? If so, then you need to put in place and maintain better government. Its clear that, to date, New Yorkers have, consistently, put in power those incapable of delivering good government. So, until the citizens of New York are willing to apply critical thinking and vote on the issues then we have no basis for complaining about the consequences of bad government.

The whole manner in which property tax is assessed seems unfair to me. Homes are taxes on their assessed value regardless of how much income the occupant has. An example is where say an elderly woman is now a widow. She and her husband used to have high paying jobs before they retired. Now the widow has only whatever retirement savings she may have and social security. She has possibly 80-90% less income, but she still has the nice house she always had. If she has been retired for a while, inflation has eaten up her retirement income. She has to pay the same rates as the folks who make really good money at today’s salary rates. We just had our property taxes increased because the wealthy in our town were tired of paying more than everyone else. So now people who have lived in older, lesser homes who have perhaps $10,000 -$20,000 per year or less pay vastly more property tax, having to make a choice between eating or selling the homes they have had for decades. The rich people across town now pay less. Is this fair? The rich, after they pay taxes, still have LOTS AND LOTS LEFT OVER and many are doing better financially than they ever did. Is it fair to starve to people with nothing to give financial aid to those who still live dream lives? Come on, the sacrifices should be shared equally. The wealthy should learn how to do a bit of belt tightening like the rest of us. An income based method of taxation would be a whole lot fairer. The teacher bashing in these comments is rather offensive. Where are the comments about other state employees who have the same benefits. So much sour grapes. Like little kids on the playground crying because someone has something they don’t. People choose their professions and used to avoid teaching because it was so POORLY PAID.

The City of Schenectady has to do some serious cut backs on their services. Several years ago they pleaded with the County to merge agencies, in effect to have one government. But the county would not listen. This is being played throughout NYS. Until these so-called elected leaders can learn to play together nicely in the “sandbox” we will never resolve these problems. It has been said before, these are PUBLIC SERVANTS elected by the taxpayers to work for us. As far as solutions, perhaps these constant discussions will wake up people into demanding accountability from their elected officials or they will be “thrown out.” Time will tell

We have to do something about these outragous taxes that are burdening our community. Do our leaders realize the oppression they cause? I think they do, but that they don’t care. Politicians lobby for campagins and their own political gain. Their only interst is their own, or else they would be suffering with the rest of us.

What we need to do, besides vote the bums out, is to rally against the legislators and march on the steps of Albany and demand a takeover of our city. Walk in and take their seats and tell them they are done.

Tax CAP? The taxes are too high and need to be LOWERED. This article is great but the fact is no one will help homeowners. Homeowners are cash cows in this welfare state and will remain cash cows. The only way to survive is to sell out and leave the state.

My family is planning to leave New York for the midwest in the next 3-5 years, as soon as we can unload our house. Living in the inner-city in a home that we qualified for as low-income has now become a $7000+ a year tax burden for my family that we can no longer afford. For a $45,000 mortgage, to pay such a huge amount per year in taxes is now insane. Our taxes have more than tripled since we purchased our home in 2003. Unfair is an understatement. I live in one of the worst neighborhoods in Albany, earn less than $12,000 a year as a private school teachers (sorry guys, no tax dollars come our way and we don’t even have benefits let alone pensions, leave that to the public schools and the growing number of overstaffed and under-populated charter schools dappling the Albany skyline these days), and our local public school qualifies as gravely underfunded compared to other area schools in the capital district. For the same money per month that we pay now, we can live in one of the nicest neighborhoods in Minneapolis, Minnesota or a high-end downtown loft in Indianapolis, Indiana and have access to fine schools without having to earn a penny more than we do now. Sorry New York, but it is no longer worth living in here for the price of working three jobs just to pay an unfair tax bill. My kids are better off somewhere else where their interests are more important to local and state government.

the CPI is a bad way to judge cost increases. It does not include FOOD or ENERGY or UTILITIES or TAXES or SHELTER. What else do people BUY? Inflation does not take into account those things either!

Over 20 years ago Senator Steve Saland proposed a fix for the school tax portion of the property tax bill. He incepted STAR and the original intent of STAR was to SHIFT the school tax burden FROM property owners to the General Fund (income and other taxes).

Note that this NEVER HAPPENED. STAR never was intended to be in place by now. I had a letter from Senator Saland way back when STAR began in response to my complaint that the change over to the General Fund was going to take too long. It was incepted to rid property owners of School taxes in a 20 year time frame. That was way longer than 20 years ago.

The Senate and the Assembly and the Governor are GREEDY. They never shifted it over because it would have meant doing something unpopular.. like rasing income taxes. Well well.. All I need to say is that a tax is a tax is a tax. Does not matter if it comes out of your pay check before you get it or out of your pay check after you get it.. it is still taxes.

About 20 years ago the then State Educaion Commissioner proposed merging all school districts that had 5,000 students…and nothing happened – even though the districts can be merged based on an order of the Commissioner. In the Town of Hempstead there are 35 separate school districts – for ONE town. The state needs to pick up the costs of medicaid and centralize the functions instead of having it duplicated by NYC and the 57 counties outside NYC. The midnight deal where Pataki traded Charter Schools for the unfunded massive expansion of Medicaid programs is bankrupting schools and counties. There’s also the matter of the federal government never fulfilling its promises to fappropriately fund medicaid. And then there’s all the’authorities” that do nothing but meet with each other and are a massive drain on resources. Then there are all the member items for things like Pedro Espada’s shrimp. State budgets need to be based on what is manded by the feds and the state constitution (recognizing that the state consitution, unkike the federal constitution, mandates education for all children and care for the needy. Ciounties should be empowered to say, “thanks but no thanks” to unfunded mnmandates and need to start going to court to get that empowerment.

I fear that nothing will get done until a few towns or villages go bankrupt and disincorporate. There are 1600+ municipalities in NY State, and over 10,000 districts, authorities and other entities able to levy taxes.

Most states get along quite well without towns or villages. Large towns and villages perhaps should be given the opportunity to become a city. Otherwise, dissolve them and let the county take over the services they used to provide.

Yes, I understand about home rule, but in many ways, it’s preventing us from tackling regional issues. Disease, pollution and traffic do not respect town lines. If you live in Colonie or Grafton, you may not care that over 20% of Troy and Albany residents are living in poverty, but look at it this way: they could be customers and employees, if they had access to better jobs and skills.

As far as teachers go, they are licensed professionals and should get pay commensurate to other licensed professions, like architects, engineers, etc. They, perhaps more than any other profession, are responsible for the long-term success of our nation.

And I’ve never met a teacher that just turns off the lights at 3:15 and goes home. Grading papers and preparing lesson plans for the next day takes more than 40 minutes per day. Should they get automatic steps in pay? Perhaps not. Should they be paid less than garbage collectors? If you really think so, you need to go back to school!

I like the idea of consolidation of schools and towns. The ones at the top of the individual towns and school districts will just have to accept demotion or quit. Of course you will still have corruption but a lot less of it because fewer leaders will dole out fewer favoritisms. You only have to do a search of pensions to come up with 150k plus a year pensions for people that were never in the work place for more than 6 hours a day even when they were working. Life of Riley on tax money has to stop is the only way out of this mess. They got theirs through contract obligations but why in the world do we let the proverbial snowball collect even more weight to crush the fix. The only other solution is to go bankrupt stop all payments even to current retires put them on welfare which would be a lot cheaper and start over or consolidate to fewer shool and town systems. That way it would be even harder to bring frivolous litigation by reducing bylaws in the seperate entities. Consolidate now or suffer many more years of disarray.

To all you state worker bashers out there, state workers have earned their contracted salaries and pension plans. Entilement programs are what has bankrupted Ny State. As long as NYC politicians run state government, entitlement programs will be untouchable. These programs make up 70% of the state budget. It is time people fended for themselves. get rid of governement. All governement does is redistribute wealth. Wealth should belong to those who earn it. If you can’t afford a house, maybe you don’t deserve to live in own one. Apartments are for ppeople like you. As for school taxes, do away with them. Schools should be run based on tuition. If you have students in school, you pay for them. Those without chilredn in school pay nothing. This will force schools to budget better by not overpaying teachers who work nine months a year, 6 hour days twice as much as they are worth. Why do schools have more than one principal? Years ago schools didn’t have all the administrative layers they have today. People on welfare used to have to work for it. As a state worker nearing retirement, I plan on taking my big fat pension and move to a place where taxes are low. Why shou;ld I pay for all the entitlements for people who can’t make it on their own.

Why is it that the City of Albany needs such a large common council? It was set up for when there was only face to face communications, and is so underwhelming and over priced. As goes for the county Legislature the only thing that group of self inportant cronies has done is outlaw cupcakes! Again too big and expensive. The city should go to all Charter schools! No teachers union, and revokable charter if non peforming. The only people who live in the city are those who dont have kids, yet the price of education is through the roof! The days of party loyalty have broken us its time to vote them all out. Maybe they can enjoy the medicaid benefits they threw down out throats!

@Kat #14 post: “it all due to the outrageous salary and benefit packages a majority of our children’s teachers are getting for PART TIME yes part work, a 5.25 hour day 182 days a year is PART TIME work.”

Lets see. My mother. The women that bore me and raised me taught alternative ED for way over 20 years, taught summer school for more then 7/8 of it. But the countless hours of work that she did for he classes that she never got paid for. What about that? Don’t go pointing fingers at teachers. For what they have to put up with today they don’t get paid nearly what they are worth.

Back on topic. I’ve never paid property taxes directly. I’ve alway rented, just for that fear. But every time tax rates jumped up my rent would go up $10, $20+. It’s gotten to the point were for a renter to live in a decent flat to have to go with out say .. food.

I finally got tired of it all and left! Moved to Indiana in ’08 and these folks here will take to pitch forks and axe handles in the streets if taxes get out of hand. Grant there is still property tax issues here they are far far less then NY. And .. for what I had in NY I live in taj mahal now. And I’m in the 13th largest city in the US. NY is out of control an will implode on itself soon.

The wise man would get out of dodge before it happens. I don’t really care for Rush Lim-whats-his-face but he had the common sense to get out too. The tax nazi’s where hunting him down too!

The NYS economy is very sad. I work hard. I work 2 jobs to keep afloat and get money saved so I can buy a house. I’ve always wanted my own house, but unfortunately, I think I am going to have to think twice. I can’t afford it, and I don’t want to leave my job that I love, and I don’t want to work 2 jobs for the rest of my life. What is a middle class person to do???

The whole system needs to be reformed, social services to start, if people can work make them get jobs like everyone else, even if it’s at McDonald’s or Wal-mart, then if they still qualify for some aid, like foodstamps, then that’s fine.

People on SSI, medicaid and foodstamps should be provided by the federal government since they are issuing the SSI — the state should not have to feel the brunt of this. Yes — people with SSI are put through a health screening process before they are approved.

Colleges should have to pay property taxes on their properties, that is where Troy has problems with all of the buildings owned by colleges that have no taxes paid.

Most importantly, for income taxes on both state and federal level, you should not be able to get back more than you paid in. If you paid in $5000 you should not get back $8000

People wonder why our economy as a whole is terrible?? Reform is needed on everything from the top and then maybe people will be able to afford property in NYS and more businesses will come.

#127- Come back and tell us how your State taxes are after you lose an influential member of Congress and you lose the piles and piles of money the Federal government hands over for wasteful military projects.

this November the composure of the Assembly needs to change so that Silver is removed as majority leader. He is responsible for this mess. He needs to go.

Schools and all levels of govenment grow so as to spend all revenue. I live in Niskayuna, a Town with no downtown or community identity. What do we need the Town gonvernment for? Sewer, water, fire protection can be by special district. Garbage collection is by privat hauler. Police service can be consolidated with County and State. What’s left? do away with the Town.

To the comments in regards to wanting to keep increasing the taxes on the “wealthy” because they can pay. Also know they can MOVE and DO. I did (to the south) and will never come back. Why pay for a broken government and all these social programs? Unions striking and refusing to negotiate even knowing their pensions are underfunded; ridiculous. Good luck. The highest earners pay the highest tax amount; no matter how much they have “left over”. That is no way to fix problems. The more of these folks you lose the higher the burden will be for the rest, it is simple economics. State taxes for the highest earners was already raised last year, just keep it coming. It is hard to relocate people to NY already and companies will not do so unless they get incentives because there is no other reason.

This is great people!! its great to see so many people awakened to the fact that high taxes are being driven by state workers with outrageous benefits. From emergency rescue, to education, to heathcare, the state workers are driving us to the poor house. It all comes down to salaries, benefits and retirement plans. We need to trim these down to private sector levels. Don’t like it? tough luck, this is how the rest of us live, so get real, no free lunch just because you work for the state.

I know state workers with $15,000 health plans for their family, while i am struggling to provide the bare minimum for mine while I work in the private sector. I am paying for my healthcare, AND those who work for the state. its not right, its not sustainable, and something has to change. I am so happy to see that more people have finally had enough and that maybe something will change for the better.

This problem is due to way too much PORK in the government. CUTS government jobs, the money exchanging hands behind government closed doors is astronomical.New york Government is So corrupt. I say we all stop paying property Taxes and let the state go backrupt. Then maybe an honest state will buy it.
I agree with everyone else about the GOOD BYE NY. more increases and it’s bye bye. This state BLOWS !!

Three fixes:
1. Cut medicaid benefits to the level of the next lowest state as measured by per capita spending.
2. Reduce spending on special education. It is behind much of the increase in school taxes.
3. Vote Shelly Silver out of office.

You all should get your fact straight about other states taxes. I was born and raised in North Carolina. Yes, property taxes are lower. That is because the state provides for 75% of the funding to schools. The county school systems are large, and while they may be more cost effective, you give up local control which might be difficult for many to accept.

How would you feel if your kids needed to be on a bus for 2-3 hours a day or if they moved your child’s “home school” 3-4 times in 6 years. I could go on and on, bigger is not always better.

Those who tell you to move to the Carolinas always forget to mention personal property taxes you pay for your car or boat each year, which can add up quickly.

In times of trouble people always want to blame the teachers, the state workers or the greedy cop or fireman with their early retirement. During the boom times my neighbor used to brag about $5000 bonuses, double digit raises, performance bumps that his private sector job provided him. He used to ask me how I could afford to work in the public sector. Now he is unemployed and it is the fault of me and my greedy co-workers who chose security over quick money.

The database is in beta form and is powered by data we receive from the state’s Office of Real Property Services and Comptroller’s Office. The data is a matter of public record and not something that an individual can opt not to disclose. Please feel free to e-mail me your address at shinman@timesunion.com and we can have a look.

Yup taxes will be going up more than the yearly wage increases. We did not get raises this year due to the economy, in a few weeks we should find out whether we will be getting them next year. I am ot complaining about not getting a raise, because at least I have a job.

I am more than willing to make sacrifices since I do have a job and medical benefits that I haven’t used in past years as I have this year.

This is what makes living below your means and saving money so important. Things wouldn’t have been AS bad if people had money set aside for a time of crisis.

Moved here from Mass. 3 yrs ago and can’t believe how much my taxes have gone up. Bought my house before for the crash so the value has dropped considerably but not my taxes. They have actually gone up. I’m tired of politicians knocking on my door telling me they will make a difference and will fight high taxes. But when voted in they’re just as bad as the person they replaced. Why bother doing any updates to my house it’s like throwing good money away after bad. I also don’t understand this county stuff, the only thing Mass uses counties for is jails and court houses that’s it. Here each county sets it’s on sales taxs and medicare I guess is also controlled by the county. Why also is the school tax driven by the the value of your house? To me it should be one set percentage for every home owner. We have a Library that sevices 10,000 people with 1 mil. payroll, plus benefits. The High School just installed a new synthetic field without even thinking of the tax payers. My wife temp’d for the State when we first moved here and she was the only one working. They actually made a comment to her to slow down she was making them look bad. She couldn’t understand why temps were needed. I wonder if a certain temp agency made a generous contribution and the temp contracts were part of the deal.

There are so many problems in this state it’s a wonder we don’t have rioting in the streets…the fact is we have a sub-culture that has raised generations of children on welfare/medicaid who encourage their daughters to get pregnant early on and continue to have children to ‘support’ themselves. We give tax breaks to companies, non-profits – but we also have the problem of the political system rewarding itself in New York. I see many discussing the public workers, the unions, the teachers, etc. but I don’t see many discussing the fact that the legislators have given themselves raises, are paid for life for ‘part-time’ work and have the same medical benefits for life. Have I missed anything? We have political appointees who appoint more friends and eventually have only chiefs making $100k+ a year and only one or two indians doing the work….but we believe that the teachers, state workers, unions are the problem? Apparently, we don’t want to deal with reality. The facts are:

1. we need to cut welfare, or limit the number of children we will provide for. If the average family can only afford 1.5-2 children – we pay for 2 – after that you’re on your own.

2. politicians get paid while they’re in office. when they leave their job – they lose their pay – kind of like the private sector…my employer won’t keep paying me or giving me medical benes once I’m gone.

3. NO APPOINTEES!!!! EVERYONE must take a test and only the most qualified gets the job. In the private sector I don’t get to hire my best friend or the guy who helped me in college…knock it off!

4. Tax breaks….OK – seniors, veterans I get – non-profits? NOPE – you pay but you pay 50% of the bill – sorry – no free rides. Businesses? NOPE you pay all of it…no incentives. We’ve tried that – AMD (Still not here)…Beechnut? Didn’t work so well did it? How about Troy-Built? Not so much. NO MORE.

5. NO MORE MANDATES. if the State wants something to be done the state must find the funding and guarantee it for the life of the mandate – it must not be allowed to shift the cost to the counties or the munis – that should keep some of the special intersts groups out of the mix – politicians are gonna have a hard time explaining it when they have to own up to it!

6. Pensions/Benes – you can’t change what’s BEEN done, but you CAN stop it now. Fixt the system. Encourage employees saving – set up self-insuring systems – best way to keep costs down…

The bottom line is: If you cant afford the property tax then stop complaining and LEAVE. There are plenty of folks whop appreciate fine roads and schools and town services who will take your place. Move down south for lower property taxes…right look at how those people live…like animals. The government has a responsibility to help people maintain a standard of living that is civilized. You teabaggers think you should pay no taxes? See how long you will last without roads, police, fire dept, schools and other essential services. People have voted for the politicians that help with programs that require funding and you are getting what you paid for. Stop being so cheap.

Bottom line – The laws pertaining to rejected taxation increases are totally worthless – The school district simply resubmits the same tax until it wears out the voters. Property tax is not a fair tax – PERIOD. Income tax is. Change it Shelly.

New York is infested with “NO VALUE ADDED COSTS”, aka costs that return value that is less than the cost of providing the service. GET RID OF IT! The MTA is a bloated elephant that couldn’t compete for a service contract if its survival depended on it — OUTSOURCE IT! … Subways, buses, trains.. put it all out to competitive bid. GET RID OF THE BLOAT! Let’s return to survival of the fittest and get away from survival of the fattest!

I am perfectly comfortable with paying my fair share, but I want something in return for it that makes me feel like I am not paying for everybody’s everything and getting little in return but the bill. I am paying $798 per 100 of assessed valuation in school taxes for a school I refused to send my children to. —BLOAT- INEFFICIENCY- INEFFECTIVENESS- INCOMPETENCE- CORRUPTION- INDIFFERENCE to name a few!