Having been at KPL today for a teaching by Bardor Tulku Rinpoche, and having this come up a bit in the question and answer section, I just want to reaffirm that there's really no ill will directed at KTD by him in any way. When I asked him about the situation, he said that it really wasn't a KTD vs KPL problem, as they have both been around for quite some time now. Rather, it is more of a problem that needs to be worked out between KTD and the KTCs.

I still really hope and pray that the situation is quickly resolved, so KTD, the KTCs and KPL can all work together towards benefitting sentient beings, and that all the students of Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche and Bardor Tulku Rinpoche don't need to be divided or estranged by these goings on. We're all dharma brothers and sisters together in this one.

Heruka wrote:really a schism can only occur if one claims they have a better dharma than the buddha's.

can i just say that i find it odd that all this stems as we are told, from a 'non' action and not 'a' action, i.e, the grass was not cut, not the grass was cut.

I for one cannot believe such a huge, sad mess boils down to someone not mowing somebody else's lawn. How could people feel so strongly about someone not getting his lawn mowed that they'd be willing to allow this huge schism (in the ordinary sense of the word) to occur and disrupt the learning and practice of the Dharma for so many people, as well as all the risk of samaya breakage as some people will inevitably begin to think and speak negatively about some of their vajra brothers and sisters? That's unfathomable to me. Is this Tenzin person said to be a realized lama or just, as the blog post made it sound, a Tibetan nobleman?

Heruka wrote:really a schism can only occur if one claims they have a better dharma than the buddha's.

can i just say that i find it odd that all this stems as we are told, from a 'non' action and not 'a' action, i.e, the grass was not cut, not the grass was cut.

I for one cannot believe such a huge, sad mess boils down to someone not mowing somebody else's lawn. How could people feel so strongly about someone not getting his lawn mowed that they'd be willing to allow this huge schism (in the ordinary sense of the word) to occur and disrupt the learning and practice of the Dharma for so many people, as well as all the risk of samaya breakage as some people will inevitably begin to think and speak negatively about some of their vajra brothers and sisters? That's unfathomable to me. Is this Tenzin person said to be a realized lama or just, as the blog post made it sound, a Tibetan nobleman?

pema-la,

much of what you say in regards to vajra brothers and sisters is true; it must present an obstacle to practice. whether its nature is outer, inner or secret obstacle, to a yogi, would make for good realization in practice.

lol, it reminds me of one of jetsun mila's doha's where he sings that monasteries are collection points for drift wood.

Heruka wrote:really a schism can only occur if one claims they have a better dharma than the buddha's.

can i just say that i find it odd that all this stems as we are told, from a 'non' action and not 'a' action, i.e, the grass was not cut, not the grass was cut.

I was taught that a scism is any one action that turns monks of a tradition against eachother causing disruption.An example I used to be angry about:The Shugden practice, which I LOL'd about when I saw it in the TOS.

Its a great example when explaining what I was taught in regard to scisms, which I used to rant about.

Heruka wrote:really a schism can only occur if one claims they have a better dharma than the buddha's.

can i just say that i find it odd that all this stems as we are told, from a 'non' action and not 'a' action, i.e, the grass was not cut, not the grass was cut.

I for one cannot believe such a huge, sad mess boils down to someone not mowing somebody else's lawn. How could people feel so strongly about someone not getting his lawn mowed that they'd be willing to allow this huge schism (in the ordinary sense of the word) to occur and disrupt the learning and practice of the Dharma for so many people, as well as all the risk of samaya breakage as some people will inevitably begin to think and speak negatively about some of their vajra brothers and sisters? That's unfathomable to me. Is this Tenzin person said to be a realized lama or just, as the blog post made it sound, a Tibetan nobleman?

Heruka wrote:really a schism can only occur if one claims they have a better dharma than the buddha's.

can i just say that i find it odd that all this stems as we are told, from a 'non' action and not 'a' action, i.e, the grass was not cut, not the grass was cut.

I for one cannot believe such a huge, sad mess boils down to someone not mowing somebody else's lawn. How could people feel so strongly about someone not getting his lawn mowed that they'd be willing to allow this huge schism (in the ordinary sense of the word) to occur and disrupt the learning and practice of the Dharma for so many people, as well as all the risk of samaya breakage as some people will inevitably begin to think and speak negatively about some of their vajra brothers and sisters? That's unfathomable to me. Is this Tenzin person said to be a realized lama or just, as the blog post made it sound, a Tibetan nobleman?

pema-la,

much of what you say in regards to vajra brothers and sisters is true; it must present an obstacle to practice. whether its nature is outer, inner or secret obstacle, to a yogi, would make for good realization in practice.

lol, it reminds me of one of jetsun mila's doha's where he sings that monasteries are collection points for drift wood.

on a serious note, the nature of this gterma interests me.

was it earth, sky, mind etc?

Honestly I don't see any of the students going against each other in this one (which is a good thing). It's more of an administrative thing. Students of both Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche and Bardor Tulku Rinpoche have been friends for so long I have a hard time seeing that happen.

I'm pretty sure Barway Dorje's terma is mind terma. Here's a pretty long teaching he gave on it:

I have been asked in particular to speak about the treasures of Barway Dorje. They consist of nine volumes, which comprise within them the essence of the teachings of the nine mandalas of the eight dispensations. I will go briefly through them, so that you can understand the link between the starting point of the treasure tradition, when Guru Rinpoche gave that great empowerment of the eight dispensations to the twenty-five disciples, and its culmination in the revelations of Barway Dorje and others.

[Translator’s note: although they are called the eight dispensation, they actually refer to nine mandalas.] To go through them in order:

- The first of the nine parts is the dispensation of the Vidyadhara Guru found in the first volume of the treasures of Barway Dorje. It consists of the outer, inner, secret, and very secret heart sadhanas of the Vidyadhara Guru.

- The second dispensation is that of Manjushri Yamantaka and this makes up the second volume of the treasures of Terchen Barway Dorje. It consists of the practices of both the white and orange forms of peaceful Manjushri and the practice of the various forms of Yamantaka.

- The third dispensation is that of Lotus Speech that includes both peaceful and wrathful forms. There are two peaceful forms of Lotus Speech: the Buddha Amitayus (the buddha of long life) and the Bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara. These two teachings are found in the third volume of the treasures of Barway Dorje, which includes the outer, inner, secret, and very secret sadhanas of longevity, and the extensive sadhana cycle of Maha Karunika (or Chenrezik). The second aspect of the dispensation of Lotus Speech is the wrathful form, which is the deity Hayagriva. This is principally found in the first half of the fourth volume of the treasures of Barway Dorje, which consists of the sadhana of the wrathful-like Hayagrivakila.

- The fourth dispensation is that of Perfect Mind and this is found in the fifth volume of the treasures of Barway Dorje, which comprises the cycle of the Subtle Essence of Vajrasattva.

- The fifth dispensation is Nectar-like Qualities or Amrita Qualities that includes the peaceful and wrathful deities of the spacious expanse. Those are found in the fifth volume.

- The sixth dispensation is that of activity of Vajrakila. This makes up the bulk of the sixth volume of the treasures of Barway Dorje and consists of the two cycles: the Collar Pouch of Yeshe Tsogyal (which was the final teaching given by Guru Rinpoche to Yeshe Tsogyal before he left Tibet) and the Great Kila of Samsara and Nirvana.

- The seventh dispensation is called Inciting the Matrikas (matrikas are female deities of a certain type). This dispensation is found throughout the seventh, eighth, and ninth volumes of the treasures of Barway Dorje. All those volumes are concerned with various forms of Vajrayogini, principally the White Khenchari of Great Bliss and others.

- The eighth dispensation is called the Dispensation of Forceful Mantra, which is the cycle of the peaceful and wrathful Rishi Lokapala, a form of Vajrapani. This is found in the other half of the fourth volume.

- The ninth dispensation is called Veneration of the Mundane. It is a misleading name but it means a mandala that includes mundane spirits on the perimeter. This dispensation is found at the end of the first volume and it is a form of the wrathful Guru Rinpoche, called Dorje Trolo, surrounded by various mundane spirits.

There have been more than fourteen lives between Nupchen Sangye Yeshe and my present life; they all had different names until Terchen Barway Dorje. Since his time, the name Barway Dorje has remained the same, therefore, Terchen Barway Dorje is considered the First Barway Dorje; then there was the Second, and then the Third. If you look at the Supplication to Successive Lives, you will see that there are about fourteen in all, culminating with the First, Second, and Third Bardor Rinpoches. The person who predicted that Barway Dorje would reveal treasures was the Fourteenth Gyalwang Karmapa, Thegchog Dorje, who was one of his masters. And I think that is enough for this evening.

The first Barway Dorje was also extremely close to Chokgyur Lingpa, and received all of his terma and was the one who transmitted it to his family.

Byron Coulter, who was fired by President Tenzin Chonyi for refusing to order a staff member to mow President Chonyi's lawn, (which event lead to Bardor Rinpoche's resignation and resulting turmoil at KTD), has written an article:

How much longer are we going to hear about this he said she said, I have been there for 10 years and I have been here for 15 years. Go take a pill or as your teacher would say, go meditate on impermanence ... those so call long time students, after so many years of studying and practice still carry so much attachment ...

Smackdown wrote:How much longer are we going to hear about this he said she said, I have been there for 10 years and I have been here for 15 years. Go take a pill or as your teacher would say, go meditate on impermanence ... those so call long time students, after so many years of studying and practice still carry so much attachment ...

If you're a long time student and don't want to do things to benefit sentient beings, even if it might get messy or ruffle your hair a little bit, then I don't think the practice has made much difference. What's going on here has significant effects on the many students at KTD and the KTCs, many of whom really want to understand what is going on.

Mr. Moderator, can we move this thread to another place.

I think the thread is fine here. There have been no personal attacks, and people need to know what is going on.

mr. gordo wrote:I see no issue with this thread, but if enough people would like to move this to "Dharma-free-for-all", that can be arranged.

Well, for one thing, the title itself is bias, and mis-leading. If HHK didn't say Bardor Rinpoche was banned, and KTD didn't say Bardor Rinpoche was banned, and Bardor Rinpoche himself didn't say he was banned, how do you come to the assumption that he was banned?

The entire post is making the already confused people even more confused. The problem with American is that they always wants to know, they think that if they can just get to the bottom of it, they can solve everything. But the problem is that you can't know everything, and you will never know everything.

Lastly, this is HHK's center, and I don't think his center owe anyone an answer for those who wants transparency. Last time I check, there's no annual stock holder meeting asking you for an opinion. Personally I have complete trust and faith in HHK's decision. If he belief that Tenzinla is the best person for the job, then he is the best person for the job.

Smackdown wrote:Well, for one thing, the title itself is bias, and mis-leading. If HHK didn't say Bardor Rinpoche was banned, and KTD didn't say Bardor Rinpoche was banned, and Bardor Rinpoche himself didn't say he was banned, how do you come to the assumption that he was banned?

Having talked to Bardor Tulku RInpoche and Lama Yeshe Gyamtso about this (as I frequent Kunzang Palchen Ling), I can assure you that he's not allowed to teach at KTD or any of the KTCs, because of recent action from KTD. I'm also sure His Holiness had nothing to do with that decision, as he came to bless Kunzang Palchen Ling last summer and Thrangu Rinpoche came this summer to also bless the center. Not to mention Lama Yeshe is one of his best (if not the best) of his English translators.

Lastly, this is HHK's center, and I don't think his center owe anyone an answer for those who wants transparency. Last time I check, there's no annual stock holder meeting asking you for an opinion. Personally I have complete trust and faith in HHK's decision. If he belief that Tenzinla is the best person for the job, then he is the best person for the job.

While students of KTD may not be stock holders, we are the ones keeping KTD afloat with our donations and attendance at teachings. Yes, the Dharma is not a democracy, but the actions taken here are not Dharmic in any way.

I have nothing but faith and devotion for His Holiness the Karmapa, and I really hope he can help us resolve this situation -- however there are other factors involved such as Tibetan noble families who want to keep as much power and comfort as they can.

You say that:

If he belief that Tenzinla is the best person for the job, then he is the best person for the job.

What's to say that His Holiness the 16th Karmapa did not set all this up because he knew this situation would happen, and that it would make the KTD students stand up for what is right and take some positive action and personal responsibility towards the administration of KTD?

At Bardor Tulku Rinpoche's last teaching at KPL, he read an excerpt from one of the last letters from His Holiness the 16th Karmapa to Bardor Rinpoche. It ended: "Don't be timid."

I think that, especially as Vajrayana students, we have a responsibility to not bury our heads in the sand when things get ugly. We need to do the opposite and stand up for what we think is the most beneficial to sentient beings. If rolling around in shit is what we need to do to benefit sentient beings, then we need to roll around in shit. How pathetic would I be if I abandoned the bodhisattva vow just because my hands might get dirty?

I personally wholeheartedly think that airing out some of this dirty laundry is the first step towards getting things cleaned up. Otherwise things will just rot away from the inside, which is only way Dharma will ever truly die out.

catmoon wrote:The topic has some relevance to me. There is some chance I will take refuge within Kagyu and if there is a schism in progress then I need to decide who to go to.

Hi Catmoon,

This really has nothing to do with the Kagyu lineage as a whole, so if you can take refuge then take refuge! If you want to there's really no reason to wait. Refuge is valid no matter what lineage you take it from. Even if you get down on one knee and take refuge to visualized or imagined Buddhas and Bodhisattvas in front of you, that's valid refuge!

But if you just want that card and a refuge name with 'Karma' in the beginning, you can take refuge under either Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche or Bardor Tulku Rinpoche or whatever other Kagyu lama you know. I can assure you that KPL will not be turning away any students, and I know Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche would not turn away any student because they took refuge with Bardor Tulku Rinpoche -- heck, they say around 80% of the students at KTD and KTC have taken refuge with Bardor Tulku Rinpoche, so that would just be silly.

This really is an administrative issue, not a Dharmic issue. The KTD board does not want Bardor Tulku RInpoche (or any of his students) teaching at KTD or KTC, for what seem to be misguided personal and/or financial reasons. I highly doubt the situation will escalate to the point where KTD starts saying that Bardor Tulku Rinpoche's Dharma and Lineage are not valid.

Smackdown wrote:Well, for one thing, the title itself is bias, and mis-leading. If HHK didn't say Bardor Rinpoche was banned, and KTD didn't say Bardor Rinpoche was banned, and Bardor Rinpoche himself didn't say he was banned, how do you come to the assumption that he was banned?

The thread title was taken from the first article written by Bill Schwartz. It was the title for the article he wrote for elephant journal.

The entire post is making the already confused people even more confused. The problem with American is that they always wants to know, they think that if they can just get to the bottom of it, they can solve everything.

You don't give enough credit to Americans or any other person's a ability to read through the three articles that were presented from both sides. The idea is to create a discussion so people can make their own decisions.

But the problem is that you can't know everything, and you will never know everything.

Which doesn't mean we ignore the elephant in the room.

Lastly, this is HHK's center, and I don't think his center owe anyone an answer for those who wants transparency. Last time I check, there's no annual stock holder meeting asking you for an opinion. Personally I have complete trust and faith in HHK's decision. If he belief that Tenzinla is the best person for the job, then he is the best person for the job.

So you have your own opinion too then I see. This is good.

How foolish you are, grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention! - Vasubandhu

Smackdown wrote:Well, for one thing, the title itself is bias, and mis-leading. If HHK didn't say Bardor Rinpoche was banned, and KTD didn't say Bardor Rinpoche was banned, and Bardor Rinpoche himself didn't say he was banned, how do you come to the assumption that he was banned?

Having talked to Bardor Tulku RInpoche and Lama Yeshe Gyamtso about this (as I frequent Kunzang Palchen Ling), I can assure you that he's not allowed to teach at KTD or any of the KTCs, because of recent action from KTD. I'm also sure His Holiness had nothing to do with that decision, as he came to bless Kunzang Palchen Ling last summer and Thrangu Rinpoche came this summer to also bless the center. Not to mention Lama Yeshe is one of his best (if not the best) of his English translators.

Lastly, this is HHK's center, and I don't think his center owe anyone an answer for those who wants transparency. Last time I check, there's no annual stock holder meeting asking you for an opinion. Personally I have complete trust and faith in HHK's decision. If he belief that Tenzinla is the best person for the job, then he is the best person for the job.

While students of KTD may not be stock holders, we are the ones keeping KTD afloat with our donations and attendance at teachings. Yes, the Dharma is not a democracy, but the actions taken here are not Dharmic in any way.

I have nothing but faith and devotion for His Holiness the Karmapa, and I really hope he can help us resolve this situation -- however there are other factors involved such as Tibetan noble families who want to keep as much power and comfort as they can.

You say that:

If he belief that Tenzinla is the best person for the job, then he is the best person for the job.

What's to say that His Holiness the 16th Karmapa did not set all this up because he knew this situation would happen, and that it would make the KTD students stand up for what is right and take some positive action and personal responsibility towards the administration of KTD?

At Bardor Tulku Rinpoche's last teaching at KPL, he read an excerpt from one of the last letters from His Holiness the 16th Karmapa to Bardor Rinpoche. It ended: "Don't be timid."

I think that, especially as Vajrayana students, we have a responsibility to not bury our heads in the sand when things get ugly. We need to do the opposite and stand up for what we think is the most beneficial to sentient beings. If rolling around in shit is what we need to do to benefit sentient beings, then we need to roll around in shit. How pathetic would I be if I abandoned the bodhisattva vow just because my hands might get dirty?

I personally wholeheartedly think that airing out some of this dirty laundry is the first step towards getting things cleaned up. Otherwise things will just rot away from the inside, which is only way Dharma will ever truly die out.

I just wish the attack can stop and everyone can go back to their practice. You cannot dodge the fact that when you attack the broad, you are also attacking Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche. I am sure it is a sore subject for those who are Barbor Rinpoche's student but please keep your samaya pure. Because in a way you are undermining HHK, KTD and KTC are his centers and he ok the resignation. How can you think that HHK and KKR are sometimes wise but sometimes not, and sometimes omniscient, and sometimes not? Lastly, I just don't want this thread to create negative karma by delineate newer student from one side or the other because I am sure both centers offer genuine teachings. Please keep in mind that we are there to learn Dharma, not running for board president or to run the center.