So, Europe is a joke because the people of Ukraine are defending democracy? How does that work for someone coming from the land of the free?

I think the point of my thread, which everyone else understood, went right over your head. And I have no inclination to go into further detail to explain the obvious._________________The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
George Orwell

Europe needs to check between its legs, see if it finds a pair of balls there, and stand up for these people.

It was a few years ago, with the NATO sponsored orange "revolution", they elected a pro-EU government. The peoples was not happy with that government, and a few years later, they elected a pro-Russia government. In both cases, this is a legitimate and elected government, and these pro-EU trouble-makers are just bad looser fascists._________________[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading that text: please consider ]]]
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good good let the hate flow through you_________________The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter
Great Britain is a republic, with a hereditary president, while the United States is a monarchy with an elective king

In your case, you fail to look at the underlying causes. For example, you are always railing against gun violence, yet fail to recognize it is limited to the inner cities, and is a problem in the black community. That right there is a full 60% of all gun violence. Remove suicides from the statistics, and one discovers there is very little gun violence among the vast majority of the population.

So if you need to fault your neighbor, and least get a clue as to what you are criticizing.

The fact that it's a black inner city problem doesn't mean that guns don't exacerbate it. But of course it's not just a black inner city problem. Vermont, a bleached white state with no real cities and a low crime rate by american standards, has a higher murder rate than London. So, with all our associated problems, from poverty to immigration to wealth disparity to refugees (all those immigrants brits complain about, where do you think they go?), we still manage a lower murder rate here.

But getting back to me, I have repeatedly said it's a complicated problem. It's not guns only, and I have said that many times. it's guns + gun culture + violence culture + fear culture + poverty etc etc. Only gun nuts assert that guns don't belong in that equation at all. or worse, they assert that MORE guns are the answer._________________

wswartzendruber wrote:

Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.

Last edited by juniper on Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:21 am; edited 4 times in total

The current wave of protests in Ukraine bears the label “Made in Germany,” “Made in the EU” and “Made in America.” The Western media has gone to great lengths to portray the demonstrations in Kiev as a struggle for democracy and the rule of law. In fact, they are part of a conflict over geostrategic issues. The aim is to repel Russian influence and subject Ukraine to the domination of Germany, the European Union and NATO.

Quote:

An examination of the political leadership of the protests reveals their reactionary character. They are led by three parties, two of which have close relations with the conservative camp in the EU, while the third is openly fascist.

The Batkivshchyna (Homeland) party, led by the imprisoned Julia Tymoshenko, has observer status with the European People’s Party, the association of Europe’s Christian-Democratic and conservative parties. UDAR (Punch), headed by boxing champion Vitali Klitschko, who is a resident of Germany, is a creation of German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s Christian Democratic Union (CDU) and its think tank, the Konrad Adenauer Foundation. The latter publicly advertises on its web site seminars devoted to the political education of UDAR members.

According to a study entitled “The Extreme Right in the Ukraine” by the German Friedrich Ebert Foundation, the third party, Svoboda (Freedom), is “the flagship of core extreme-right ideology.” The party’s original name was the Social-National Party of Ukraine. It used as its emblem a logo reminiscent of the Nazi swastika. On the advice of the French National Front (FN), with which it works closely, it decided on a less provocative name.

Arseniy Yatsenyuk (Homeland) and Vitali Klitschko appear at press conferences together with Oleh Tyahnybok from Svoboda. Tyahnybok is a neo-Nazi notorious for his ultranationalist, xenophobic and anti-Semitic outbursts.

Leading European and American politicians have expressed their solidarity with the protests in Ukraine. The same forces that have tacitly supported the brutality of police in mercilessly beating those opposing EU austerity policies in Athens, Madrid and elsewhere now proclaim their outrage at the brutality of the Ukrainian police.

_________________[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading that text: please consider ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
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The current wave of protests in Ukraine bears the label “Made in Germany,” “Made in the EU” and “Made in America.” The Western media has gone to great lengths to portray the demonstrations in Kiev as a struggle for democracy and the rule of law. In fact, they are part of a conflict over geostrategic issues. The aim is to repel Russian influence and subject Ukraine to the domination of Germany, the European Union and NATO.

Quote:

An examination of the political leadership of the protests reveals their reactionary character. They are led by three parties, two of which have close relations with the conservative camp in the EU, while the third is openly fascist.

The Batkivshchyna (Homeland) party, led by the imprisoned Julia Tymoshenko, has observer status with the European People’s Party, the association of Europe’s Christian-Democratic and conservative parties. UDAR (Punch), headed by boxing champion Vitali Klitschko, who is a resident of Germany, is a creation of German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s Christian Democratic Union (CDU) and its think tank, the Konrad Adenauer Foundation. The latter publicly advertises on its web site seminars devoted to the political education of UDAR members.

According to a study entitled “The Extreme Right in the Ukraine” by the German Friedrich Ebert Foundation, the third party, Svoboda (Freedom), is “the flagship of core extreme-right ideology.” The party’s original name was the Social-National Party of Ukraine. It used as its emblem a logo reminiscent of the Nazi swastika. On the advice of the French National Front (FN), with which it works closely, it decided on a less provocative name.

Arseniy Yatsenyuk (Homeland) and Vitali Klitschko appear at press conferences together with Oleh Tyahnybok from Svoboda. Tyahnybok is a neo-Nazi notorious for his ultranationalist, xenophobic and anti-Semitic outbursts.

Leading European and American politicians have expressed their solidarity with the protests in Ukraine. The same forces that have tacitly supported the brutality of police in mercilessly beating those opposing EU austerity policies in Athens, Madrid and elsewhere now proclaim their outrage at the brutality of the Ukrainian police.

Nice source.

By the way, you'd have to be full-fledged communist to perceive a Germany-backed group as "fascist" and "nationalist".

The real reactionaries here are the left-wingers. The people want independence from Russia, and some old-thinkers don't want to let go of the past.

In your case, you fail to look at the underlying causes. For example, you are always railing against gun violence, yet fail to recognize it is limited to the inner cities, and is a problem in the black community. That right there is a full 60% of all gun violence. Remove suicides from the statistics, and one discovers there is very little gun violence among the vast majority of the population.

So if you need to fault your neighbor, and least get a clue as to what you are criticizing.

The fact that it's a black inner city problem doesn't mean that guns don't exacerbate it. But of course it's not just a black inner city problem. Vermont, a bleached white state with no real cities and a low crime rate by american standards, has a higher murder rate than London. So, with all our associated problems, from poverty to immigration to wealth disparity to refugees (all those immigrants brits complain about, where do you think they go?), we still manage a lower murder rate here.

But getting back to me, I have repeatedly said it's a complicated problem. It's not guns only, and I have said that many times. it's guns + gun culture + violence culture + fear culture + poverty etc etc. Only gun nuts assert that guns don't belong in that equation at all. or worse, they assert that MORE guns are the answer.

In 2012 Vermont had 8 murders. In 2012 London had 89 murders. Big difference. So by even going by percentage of population, they are about the same. And I don't know how many, if any, of the Vermont cases involved a firearm. So what is your problem with white people and guns?

btw, sorry to muddy the waters with such trivial things as facts. _________________The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
George Orwell

They are facts. These "good" guys are fascists, anti-Semitics and authoritarians. If you cannot face these facts, maybe you are one of them.

Quote:

By the way, you'd have to be full-fledged communist to perceive a Germany-backed group as "fascist" and "nationalist".

I already said you I am not a communist, I am worst: a free thinker, that both in religion and in politics, and for me capitalism and communism are just 2 sides of the same bullshit called exploitation. Both want to exploit nature for the sake of the economy, and in both cases this result in the same racist, egoistic and violent madness.

But what I am for, in the case of Ukraine, like in many other cases, is to let the Ukrainian people decide, and that people certainly doesn't want a war, but to be able to decide for himself in the next elections in 2015.

Quote:

The real reactionaries here are the left-wingers. The people want independence from Russia, and some old-thinkers don't want to let go of the past.

The people in Ukraine first don't want a war. Second, they doesn't want the economical program of the pro-EU fascists. This wikileaks cable from the Kiev US embassy explain these reforms from the pro-EU fascists:

Quote:

A. Government reform (functional structure). Eliminate six ministries; subordinate other government bodies to the ministries. # so more power to the state. We can see in the US with the NSA case or in the USSR of Staline with its KGB what it mean. BTW: the NSA do have much more files than the KGB never was able to compile.

B. Increase the pension age: two years up for men; 3 years up for women. Cancel the right of early retirement and length of service calculation when one year is counted as two. (Note: For every year of work, workers in hazardous sectors -- such as steel workers and miners -- receive credit for two years worked. AT the end of 20 years at work, for example, miners' pensions are calculated on the basis of having worked 40 years.)

C. Limit pensions for working pensioners.

D. Cancel special pensions -- these were distributed to high-level government officials, judges, scientists, or managers at state-owned firms and are higher than normal pensions.

I. Keep the minimum subsistence-level payment unchanged but introduce extra payments for the needy. J. Bind privileges and social payments to incomes: if incomes are high, privileges and social payments will be lower.

And BTW, Russia today is capitalist as much as any other European country. The only difference is that Russia will never accept to lick the boots of the USA or of the NATO, like the other European countries included my own country are doing.

BTW2: This is JPMorgan, the same capitalist bank that was helping both Hitler and Stalin, that call today for a return of the authoritarian regimes in Europa. But as you support Nazis pigs in Ukraine, I guess you are fine with that too._________________[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading that text: please consider ]]]
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Dominique_71, let me try to get this straight. In your view, the people protesting against the government in Ukraine are just fascists under the control of NATO and the West, and the majority of the country wants to be aligned with Putin's Russia.

Is that correct?_________________The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
George Orwell

Actually, the country is divided. But there are buggers waiting for all of them. Putin and his clan take care of the people in the East, we fuck the West. The rest is just a show of free will. And Oblabla does whatever he does best.

Dominique_71, let me try to get this straight. In your view, the people protesting against the government in Ukraine are just fascists under the control of NATO and the West, and the majority of the country wants to be aligned with Putin's Russia.

Is that correct?

All I want is that the Ukrainian people can decide for himself. It is not to any of us to take part for one side of the other. Beside that, it is facts on the ground that show that some of the leaders of the pro-EU Ukrainian movement are fascists, that the other leaders of that movements have very tight links with them, that it is also tight links between these leaders and some government of the NATO like the US, the Britain or the German, and that it is links between the pro-EU leaders and the extreme right of all the European countries. Historically, Ukraine have a heavy past of fascism. That was encouraged by Germany in the 30', and I don't think that the majority of the people of that country want to revive that.

Putin's Russia is an independent country, like the NATO countries. Ukraine is also an independent country, and it is in the middle of an imperialist fight between capitalist Russia and the capitalist NATO countries. It is huge geo-strategical interests in that game, and I think the best solution is if the people of Ukraine can decide what he want in the coming 2015 election. That is called democracy, and I don't buy when some peoples are using violence to impose their view. If you condemn the usage of violence when it come from some extrem-left guerilla, you must also condemn it when it come from some extrem-right guerilla. And we are not in a situation like under the US sponsored dictatorship of Pinochet. It is no state militia arresting, torturing and killing peoples on the only ground of their political beliefs in Ukraina today.

Now, the people protesting, I think most of them are dupes of a bunch of fascists peoples which control that movement. Exactly like in France when today 120'000 peoples are in the streets crying they want the Jews out of France. And the ones that lead that movement in France, the FN, are against the EU in France but they are supporting the pro-EU in Ukraine. What a bad fascist joke!

On the other hand, the pro-EU movement get its chance after the orange revolution, but several corruption scandals get them pushed into the opposition at the next election. So for me, the people of Ukraine did chose to put them into the opposition and they are just bad looser. Also, I don't think the NATO control them. They help them, first with a massive mass media campaign, and certainly with some other forms of support. The NATO countries have a long tradition of supporting the worst dictatorships in the world, and as long they can get cheep oil and cheep heroin, the peoples paying the price of their politics are just collateral damages.

What I know is that the last thing the people of Ukraine want is a war. All I want is that this people can decide what he want to do in the next election in 2015._________________[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading that text: please consider ]]]
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well, there are a lot of Ukrainian people who were very pissed off when their government threw away a treaty with the EU. Enough to constantly demonstrate in Kiew and forcing that government to concede a lot of the demands.

Pretty impressive, if they were just a small minority.

Maybe you are just very wrong? Btw, could you be more concise and to the point? Your 'drowning the others in text' approach is very weak flamewar warrior-fu._________________Study finds stunning lack of racial, gender, and economic diversity among middle-class white males

By any of the traditional definitions (the Caucuses, the Volga River, the Urals, the Ural river, etc.) it's well inside Europe. In fact, the Ukranian Lviv is close to being in the center of Europe, in terms of land mass.

That's why the Russians are nervous. History is against them. When they formed the U.S.S.R. they grabbed a huge chunk of Europe, and they'd like to keep it.

They're making their move now because the U.S. has a president in office whose foreign policy is weak and who is willing to throw anything and anybody under the bus to look good (remember: now that he has been re-elected, he has "more flexibility" to do what Putin wants). Even if Obama wanted to intervene, he is at a low point in terms of his mandate. He has effectively turned Afghanistan into Vietnam 2.0, he has turned the victory in Iraq into a waste of lives of souls, he bombed the crap out of Libya for nothing, and he already shot his wad in terms of WMD Lie. Nobody trusts him and nobody wants to hear it. They just want him to go away. And it doesn't take a genius to know the Europeans won't raise a finger to help a bunch of Slavs (hell, they had to be taken by the hand and practically forced to do anything about the wars in Yugoslavia).

This is the ideal time for Russia or China to exert their influence, short of an all-out invasion somewhere. In fact, it might be really smart for Putin to roll a dozen or so divisions of tanks into Ukraine ("at the request of the Ukranian government", of course).

What is going on in France is symptomatic of our system. The left, like in the US, have the power, and like in the US, the left do exactly the same politics than the right, but with the big difference than the right will not oppose when the left make an austerity politics, which makes the riches to get get richer faster than ever, and the majority of the people to get poorer faster than ever.

In such conditions, it is regrettable but understandable that some peoples non well educated peoples can get tempted by the propaganda of the extreme right. The media have also a huge responsibility. Most of the western countries are members of the NATO, and we all know they are in perpetual war against the rest of the world. And in a war, we all know that the truth is the first victim. In a war, the media are not issuing the truth but war propaganda.

Back in France. Many peoples in France have a great sympathy toward the Palestinian people and its struggle for justice and independence. They never invited the Zionists and from day one, the Zionists are considering them like under shit. That, plus the fact that the left is the most pro-zionist of all the political parties, plus the fact that the condition of living of most of the French population is worsening faster with the socialist government than with the preceding government, make that the majority of the people doesn't trust the government, or the system, or the politics. Even the cops are arresting peoples because they get orders to do so, but they don't think they are right. This goes so far than the government censored a show, passing over the Justice. The last time such a censorship was issued was during the Nazi occupation in WWII.

The only difference is that today France is not an occupied territory like Palestine but a so-called free country. That imply the occupation is from the inside of the system. And many peoples say stop, because that's just too much, and with time, that protestation can only grow, because all the political parties are parts of the problem, at the exception of the extremes, and the extremes have no solution. And that problem is not specific to France but to all the rich countries. That imply I can only see 3 alternatives on the long run:

1) a return to authoritarian regimes, like JPMorgan want.
2) the peoples kick out all the politicians from the extreme left to the extreme right and succeed to organize themselves and to make a revolution. That will not be a coloured revolution or a marxist revolution but a true popular revolution.
3) the whole system will implode, like at the end of the USSR.

I also think the less credible alternative is 2) because a lot of peoples are so happy to be like sheep than they play the wolves as soon they get the opportunity to do so, not realizing that it is not a big difference between 1) and 3) and than 2) is their best option. In fact, they fear to take their responsibility and to make 2) to exist. That's the main problem, and it have a lot to do with our religious thinking that, in the West, give the human transcendence to a superstition called God, and in the East, give it to another superstition called karma._________________[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading that text: please consider ]]]
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Last edited by Dominique_71 on Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

And I also think we have no real choice because the problems of our society are just too big. Our only viable choice is 2)._________________[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading that text: please consider ]]]
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In 2012 Vermont had 8 murders. In 2012 London had 89 murders. Big difference. So by even going by percentage of population, they are about the same. And I don't know how many, if any, of the Vermont cases involved a firearm. So what is your problem with white people and guns?

btw, sorry to muddy the waters with such trivial things as facts.

yes, vermont has as many people as my borough; I of course mean per population. look at the relative populations; vermont's rate is slightly higher (exactly as I claimed).

My point is that even if you take the best case scenario in the US (no city to speak of, white ass rural state wealthy state), you STILL get more murders than big bad ass London (black people, more black peole, muslims, chavs, the whole nine yards...). So, while murder is worse in the inner cities, it isn't just an inner city problem.

Why do i think it's guns in Vermont? Statistically it's guns everywhere in your country. that's the weapon of choice. people are as usual voting with their trigger fingers when homiciding.

Edit: apparently, the whitey white white state of new hampshire has the same murder rate as london (and NH has the lowest murder rate in the union)._________________

wswartzendruber wrote:

Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.

By the way, you'd have to be full-fledged communist to perceive a Germany-backed group as "fascist" and "nationalist".

Actually Krautland is currently controlled by a CDU/CSU/SPD coalition, which means on a government level the Christardnazis are pretending to agree with the Traitor Party (which in turn pretends to be full of lefties but is openly pushing for even more oppressive ideas than the Christfags ever dreamt of). So, fascist/nationalist is quite the solid description for the suckers right now._________________"Confident, lazy, cocky, dead." -- Felix Jongleur, Otherland