"The idea that poverty is determined, defined and measured by a group of people mostly unaffected by it is an intriguing one. Numerous definitions and studies globally tell us what poverty is, how it is measured — extreme and the moderate (there are categories!). Though surprisingly, none of these definitions has been evolved by or in consultation with the poor themselves. The arrogance of economists is such that they endeavour and succeed, in some measure, to estimate and tell us how poor we should feel and why"

To be fair, economists are likely to be among those with resources to do the measuring. Poor people tell us how poor they feel - and why - but are less likely to have comparative information ... especially when you consider this:

The theories offered by economists who try to make the insane money and power addiction and greed of big business and the wealthy look rational… they claim to benefit society and the public's well-being. But under cover as corporate media refuses to report, where we common folk can't see, they do just the opposite: they make the great mass of people poorer while making the rich fabulously richer. So ya we Western folk have all these gadgets but we aren't doing so well here in the West even with our stupid gadgets and yeah the poor of the poorest aren't doing well and never have for a reason. It's a game, a really nasty game. Our wealth has been used to keep third world nations impoverished through economic warfare and bombing the hell out of them while those who make the big bucks, global banks and corporations, monarchies steal all all the poor nations natural resources and wealth. Guess what--The Western folk who have lived high on the hog from this war economy and paid through their taxes and indifference for mass murder and theft from small poor but resource rich nations, our karma is coming home to roost. We are next on the economic butcher list...

This was almost 14 years ago data...In its annual tax analysis for 2000, the IRS reported that the top 400 taxpayers—only 0.00014 percent of the population—now take in more than 1 percent of the total income of all taxpayers. Meantime, their tax payments plummeted, mostly due to substantial reductions in capital gains tax rates.

In 2000, the average annual income of the top 400 increased to $174 million, while the average income for the bottom 90 percent was $27,000. Even the Wall Street Journal calls it "so much money in so few hands ... a startling accumulation of wealth at the very top of the income pyramid." The "income gap," wrote the Journal, is becoming a "vast chasm." War on Poor, Jim Wallis In These Times, October 2003, p13

Mind and mental events are concepts, mere postulations within the three realms of samsara Longchenpa .... A link to my Garden, Art and Foodie blog Scratch Living

Maybe so, but economists and politicians share the same bed, this is one of my favorite subjects and I was just reading this…

The problem with economic news today is that most of it comes from economists. And economists are trained to deal with statistics, not with people. by Economist and author Hazel Henderson

From my notes:

Depression-Era rules destroyed by Alan Greenspan, (an economists), back then our Federal Reserve Chairman (The Federal Reserve and IRS are private organizations and are not part of our Government), and President Clinton (a politician) back during his presidency, he signed the Financial Services Modernization Act, which allows merging of banks, securities firms and insurers. It repeals parts of the Glass-Steagall Act. Which totally caused the "to big to fail" crisis of our banking industry and also the derivatives scam bundling housing loans and selling them to buyers over and over again even if they were absolutely worthless.

The key to the housing boom was the ability of Wall Street investment banks to buy up mortgages, chop them up into pieces based on their supposed quality, and turn them into giant bonds and other financial paper that was bought up by investors.

... This was part of a much bigger practice in the financial system of trading “derivatives” — financial paper “derived” from underlying financial assets. In housing, however, the value of those underlying assets — the houses themselves — is dropping due to higher default rates on mortgages and falling house prices.

... big banks have had to write off about $110 billion in bad debt. Big banks big firms like Citigroup, Merrill Lynch and Bear Stearns have had to turn to the Saudi royal family and state-controlled sovereign wealth funds from Dubai and China for bailouts...From Bubble to Bustby Lee Sister

I see these bubbles as fields of grain and the bust is harvest time for the money addicts. We are just stupid livestock to them.

Mind and mental events are concepts, mere postulations within the three realms of samsara Longchenpa .... A link to my Garden, Art and Foodie blog Scratch Living

shel wrote:So... like ecologists are responsible for trashing the environment. They're like totally in bed with politicians and big business.

At least you will talk to me and very few people will about this stuff. Thank you so much

Ecologist who are digging for grants, prestige, defending their outdated or bogus work and looking to save their next paycheck will absolutely trash the environment! Look at economist like Ben Shalom Bernanke and the Fed they don't serve this public but they are managing our economy without our voting them in or having a say in their policies. These economist have bought our political system and our politicians work for them not us. These people don't even see us common folks plight, they don't care, because they are money addicts and we are their cash cows. We are being factory farmed just like the food that's fed to us through this industrial grid.

Have a great day

Mind and mental events are concepts, mere postulations within the three realms of samsara Longchenpa .... A link to my Garden, Art and Foodie blog Scratch Living

shel wrote:Now you're confusing economists with ecologists and politicians. I can see why no one bothers to speak to you about such things.

Truth is that most people in our society would abuse power for there own selfish gain, if they were in a position to.

I am just pointing out how they work together. I am truly sorry I misunderstood or ignored your points, the ignoring part is a really bad habit of mine. But I totally agree with the title of this thread, "The Arrogance of Economists ."

I work for a Government I despise for ends I think criminal. John Maynard Keynes

Mind and mental events are concepts, mere postulations within the three realms of samsara Longchenpa .... A link to my Garden, Art and Foodie blog Scratch Living

shel wrote:You might at least try to make sense, out of common courtesy if for no better reason.

Shel please define how I should work within your view common courtesy…I am a uneducated country girl and may be missing something, I am being honest here, I am seriously from the country and used to talking about the quality of an animals poop regarding their health without offending, even at the dinner table: Etiquette is a code of behavior that delineates expectations for social behavior according to contemporary conventional norms within a society, social class, or group. Help me so we can communicate better.

EDIT: oh forget about the communication part Shel, I feel I am a lost cause: Economists today primarily serve the needs of powerful interests at the expense of society in general... At the core, economics is about politics and about power, and the question for the economists is whose power are you going to serve as an expert. Robert Johnson

Last edited by reddust on Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mind and mental events are concepts, mere postulations within the three realms of samsara Longchenpa .... A link to my Garden, Art and Foodie blog Scratch Living

shel wrote:I suggest trying to understand what you write, and the purpose behind what you write. Then we can start work on your etiquette.

My dad lived in a box car growing up and joined the Air Force to climb out of poverty, all the jobs moved to a cheaper labor market so the only job a young man could fined was through warfare, he flew a jet, went all over the world and died from radiation poisoning rotting out his balls. I've been made homeless during one of those endless crashes we've experienced since the Federal Reserve took over managing our economy and currency, our farmland stolen through fraud, debt, manipulation of the markets stealing our savings and value of currency. I am past saving by anyone trying to rationalize this economy or it's economists.

So shel, I guess you can leave me be and I will do the same with you.

Mind and mental events are concepts, mere postulations within the three realms of samsara Longchenpa .... A link to my Garden, Art and Foodie blog Scratch Living

omg, the comparative information about the state of the economy, and what economists think is reality maybe scientific, insensitive, deluded, scientific fact, clueless, or lies depending on your POV.

What is so... do you know what it is like not to have enough money to wash your clothes at the laundromat... what it is like to plan and strategize to do so and the burden of having enough soap. What a big decision it is to buy a bottle of ketchup which is pure luxury when toilet paper comes first. How every trip to the store is measured in how much gas it takes and whether the car will make it home again. How buying toilet paper to last 6 months is the best option because you may not be able to buy it later ... do you really think that these political discussion are worth anything? Do you know what it is like to go to the food bank only to discover that the food is either spoiled or that it is simply unhealthy canned food which has all to often reached its expiration date. Do you know what it is like not to have enough money to cremate your loved one. How your children are failing in school and there is nothing that can be done to help them.

The talk of poverty by economists and politicians is worth nothing imo. Measurement and bar charts mean nothing... but oh, they are so impressive for both sides to attach to.

Lindama wrote:omg, the comparative information about the state of the economy, and what economists think is reality maybe scientific, insensitive, deluded, scientific fact, clueless, or lies depending on your POV.

What is so... do you know what it is like not to have enough money to wash your clothes at the laundromat... what it is like to plan and strategize to do so and the burden of having enough soap. What a big decision it is to buy a bottle of ketchup which is pure luxury when toilet paper comes first. How every trip to the store is measured in how much gas it takes and whether the car will make it home again. How buying toilet paper to last 6 months is the best option because you may not be able to buy it later ... do you really think that these political discussion are worth anything? Do you know what it is like to go to the food bank only to discover that the food is either spoiled or that it is simply unhealthy canned food which has all to often reached its expiration date. Do you know what it is like not to have enough money to cremate your loved one. How your children are failing in school and there is nothing that can be done to help them.

The talk of poverty by economists and politicians is worth nothing imo. Measurement and bar charts mean nothing... but oh, they are so impressive for both sides to attach to.

Toilet paper can never come before ketchup, not if you have a bath or a sink.

we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche

We lived in Vietnam back then. I was young and was not aware of what was going. My sister told me that my family was struggling to find a meal to eat everyday. Back then we gathered wood to make fire, drew water from the well, and went to toilet in the forest and wiped our butts with leaves or whatever available. We lived under a roof made from bamboo structure and waived leaves. We used bicycles for transportation.

NAMO AMITABHANAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)Linjii―Listen! Those of you who devote yourselves to the Dharma must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―

LastLegend... when I was growing up, I wasn't aware either... but now I've seen it with others and myself... even so, there is a sweetness in being alive, but I wasn't talking about that when I get into what the economists have to say about it.... it's numbers to them, and numbers that don't have bodies.