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Apparently if someone thinks that “misandry” is an actual problem, they’re gonna feel they’re entitled to comment on it anywhere and whenever those feminist bullies raise any concerns. “This is not the time for it” just doesn’t register.

Oh, I like him! He’s an ally. And he’s right. It’s too bad I get the feeling that he’s only ever preaching to the choir. ‘Nice guys’, they’re part of the problem and I never do see them becoming anything other than ‘nice guys’ even though I expect he wants to be reaching them. We all know there’s no breaking through to the MRAs and their like.

It’s good advice for anyone coming from a position of privilege. I think there are a lot of well-meaning guys who want to argue on some technicality who don’t realize just how damaging they’re being. Will the hardcore MRAs and misogynists care about this video? No, but maybe that genuinely nice guy who fancies himself a feminist and doesn’t grasp exactly what it means to be an ally will get a clue.

The video reminded me of far too many conversations I’ve had with liberal Christians I know who react with anger and call people bigots when the horrors of religion are pointed out to them. They don’t go “yeah, that’s right and that’s why I do X, Y and Z.” They just go on the defense, refuse to listen and make themselves look like assholes.

It’s too bad I get the feeling that he’s only ever preaching to the choir.

Not sure I agree. I think that his suggestion to call it wherever we see it is perfectly valid. I think it’s quite easy for a general mass to get dragged in like sheep to the bullying, they find strength in number, but as soon as their idiotic views get exposed they go running. Sometimes the choir can make a big difference.

I thought the general style was a bit Bill Cosby, couldn’t work out if I liked it or not, but I did like the peanuts style backing track.

Being polite is the problem. At least it’s the problem for the good people.

One of the hard parts to doing something about this is that generally speaking the non-misogynists are the more polite people, and as such are less likely to speak up and smack down this sort of thing (I know speaking for myself it’s sometimes a difficult thing to do. It’s just not something I’m comfortable with)

Well said sir. I personally think the web would be a much less stressful place if we were all politer to one another. As my Mum always said good manners cost nothing.

I think good manners are an important social skill. Being polite is usually a quality. But sometimes your interlocutor just needs to understand, in plain language he will understand, that he is a filthy slime-pit dwelling, shit-eating, excuse for a human being who takes pleasure in oppressing women. That he is, in short, an septic arsehole and can stick a decaying porcupine dipped in hot tar and glass shards up his pustule-covered arse sideways, slowly.

There can be a cost to good manners. Being “nice” and “polite” is a short journey to being “accomodating” to bigots who want to legislate their religion, hatred and bigotry on the rest of us. They need to be told to fuck right off.

[OT: Manners]

The other thing about “good manners” is that they can be utilized to embarrass and shame other people. Manners: not just a quality, also a weapon. And good manners are not universal, what is polite in one country/city/region can be a faux pas or even offensive in another. Lastly, some places have very challenging concepts of “good manners” try going to Japan and not commit faux pas on a daily, if not hourly, basis.

Kudos to this guy and to the woman with the Kickstarter… there needs to be some heavy market research done on female demographics in gaming and sci-fi/fantasy genre (TV, movies, etc.) to spark some changes in the mainstream views that these areas are “boys’ clubs”.

I personally think the web would be a much more intelligent place if idiot tone trolls didn’t elevate “civility” over not being an asshole.

Well there is a difference between civility and politeness. Being civil is not saying things like fuck in front of your mother. Being polite is not making idiotic, racist, sexist etc arguments (and other things of course!).

Trolling can be entertaining when it is mocking crazy people by being a Poe. But I can never enjoy it for the same reason that I can’t watch “The Colbert Report” or “Tosh.0″: because of knowing that there is a significant audience who doesn’t actually see the irony and directly agrees with every opinion like Colbert’s conservativism and Tosh’s blatent racism/sexism/ anti-disabledism. It’s just too disturbing to think about and I can’t enjoy either show. (I’m referring to “The Irony of Satire: Political Ideology and the Motivation to See What You Want to See in The Colbert Report”.)

The definition depends on who you ask and the range from the commenters on this blog vary from any-one-who-is-trying (rarely) to unless-you’re-a-member-of-the-relevant-in-group-and-devoted- activist you don’t count (more often).

The topic of that vid was distinguishing “What they did” vs “What they are”, advising against criticising the latter because it derails.

Is this what the shark tank tries to do by colorfully paraphrasing the effective meaning of someone’s action comment?

It gets confusing with responses to known or suspected trolls mixed in, over the course of thousands of comments covering the same basic material over and over…

@quoderatdemonstrandum #11:

But sometimes your interlocutor just needs to understand, in plain language he will understand, that he is a filthy slime-pit dwelling, shit-eating, excuse for a human being who takes pleasure in oppressing women. That he is, in short, an septic arsehole and can stick a decaying porcupine dipped in hot tar and glass shards up his pustule-covered arse sideways, slowly.

It may not register with the hardened MRA’s, but it may register with the clueless. More importantly, it helps to challenge the idea that it is normal and right for a man to assert dominance in every possible situation.

I’ve just addressed a d00d (almost certainly, Cogito is a d00d) with a handle that means “I think” in Latin. Of course he’s going to have a much higher opinion of his own intellect than is warranted (see link in preceding parenthetical).

Word. Those of you who’ve never heard of Jay Smooth before, go browse his videos. He’s best known for his “How To Tell Someone They Sound Racist” bit.

The topic of that vid was distinguishing “What they did” vs “What they are”, advising against criticising the latter because it derails.

Is this what the shark tank tries to do by colorfully paraphrasing the effective meaning of someone’s action comment?

I don’t know. Have you asked “the shark tank”? I’ve not seen that ‘nym around here, but I’m not on 24/7, so…

It gets confusing with responses to known or suspected trolls mixed in, over the course of thousands of comments covering the same basic material over and over…

@quoderatdemonstrandum #11:

But sometimes your interlocutor just needs to understand, in plain language he will understand, that he is a filthy slime-pit dwelling, shit-eating, excuse for a human being who takes pleasure in oppressing women. That he is, in short, an septic arsehole and can stick a decaying porcupine dipped in hot tar and glass shards up his pustule-covered arse sideways, slowly.

I don’t really know why you’re confused, but I’m going to take a guess.

1. You appear to be conflating me with the entire commentariat

2. You appear to be assuming that since I think Mr. Smooth’s advice in that video was good, that means I think it’s good advice all the time, applicable in every situation.

I’d seen pharyngulites use the term intermittently for the atmosphere here of being aggressive-to-fools. Usually it’s accompanied by a mention of how welcoming and safe this place is thanks to the no-BS policy. Maybe not used often enough to be a nickname then.

You appear to be conflating me with the entire commentariat

Since you charitably brought up the video, and I thought you were a long-time active regular, it seemed appropriate to ask you if there was a trend among the commentariat of consistently applying that distinction to certain classes of commenters.
I thought maybe the rules for recognized trolls and recalcitrants, who stole more screentime, were obscuring my understanding of different house rules for dealing with the clueless, because of superficially similar outcomes.

You appear to be assuming that since I think Mr. Smooth’s advice in that video was good, that means I think it’s good advice all the time, applicable in every situation.

I was trying to confirm one of the ‘multiple levels’ you’d previously alluded to and hoping exceptions would be part of any informative responses. I understand that I’m not entitled to your time explaining the way of things. Had this thread been busier, someone else might’ve chimed in.

We are the shark tank. Well, I guess we is a little imprecise given my level of participation of late, but I think that gets the idea across.

I know. I was snarking. Poorly, it seems. There are norms, but I don’t speak for anyone else, just myself.

@ Compulsory

Personally, I try to observe the rule of sticking to criticizing what a person does/says rather than what they are.

If they respond to such criticism with further foolishness then insulting their very person–calling them a weeping pustule oozing infected pus on the ass of humanity, or similar hyperbole–is fair game. I find that insults that grow out of observing and honestly characterizing what a person says/does yield a much better caliber of insult–more incisive, more creative, and above all, more accurate.

Honestly, 90% of the time this approach doesn’t really make much difference, as Mr. Smooth (I love typing that! I hope I get to meet him in person someday just so I can say, “Hello, Mr. Smooth”) explained in a talk that was something of a follow-up to the one I mentioned. However, in the 10% of times it does work, it means you’ve discovered a person who was propagating bigoted ideas out of ignorance rather than malice, and is open to learning how to act in a way that better comports with what they feel is their intrinsic nature (i.e., non-bigoted).

Yes, herp those derps. very droll. I feel like I’m in the barrens chat? Would you like to follow up with “you mad bro?”

My point is that there is a moving goal post as to what constitutes support and the you might as well try playing mumbly-peg with Bishop than head down that road (as you and the derpster illustrate).

And Daisy, no. To have called me out, you and friends would have to address my point. Did you miss the part where I lauded Jay Cool? Do I need to recite how many times I’ve forwarded URLs to his stuff to folks I know?

What the.. I don’t care if he’s right in defending her, he just dumped a humptonne of fallacies:

–People who watch Anita’s vlog don’t ‘know her opinion’ yet.
(She’s supposed to be making a documentary for schools, not an opinion piece, and she’s made enough vids for people to learn how she works)

–People who think she’s a misandrist shouldn’t assume that she’s going to be unfair in a documentary about sexism.
(self explainable)

–That a lot of trolls are lying to themselves about it not being sexist; “Only someone who hates women and sees them as less than human would think that’s a meaningful distinction.”
(The difference between being a Misanthrope and a Misogynist is a critical one.
One term includes hating men and the other is passive, so if you honestly think they’re indistinguishable from one another you have to be assuming that hatred of men is your default position whenever it isn’t actually mentioned.
So to use his own words, only someone who hates men and sees them as less than human would think it’s not a meaningful distinction.)

–It’s unacceptable to point out that its not just women who are discriminated against.
(Being a Misanthrope does not means you are actually sexist, they’re assholes to everyone equally. I’d take young misanthrope over young bigot as people grow out of misanthropy, but the bigoted idea that men and women should be treated differently is a major problem in society today)

–That people don’t see the Hateful Trolling towards Anita as wrong.
(Thats blatantly false. Trolls do this shit is because they get off on it being so offensive and wrong. Saying they’re doing is wrong is just offering them condiments for their meal.)

–That politely accusing trolls of being afraid of women and stupid is going to help solve things instead of making the problem worse.
(Trolls feed off insults, just be aware that you’re offering them a fight that will escalate beyond your comfort levels quickly. Go dig around 4chan and see what they do for fun. Insulting is not a wise tactic.)

If you don’t think women and men are the same, be aware that compared to people who do, you are the bigot. You can tell if someone is *actually* sexist because they say “..but they are different really”. Being sexist doesn’t mean you’re hostile to people, just that you think they ‘should’ be treated differently. One day your current ‘enlightened’ view is going to be the sexist old grandparent view, there’s still further to go. The people who try to get you to include men are actually trying to strengthen your point, not detract from it. It’s saying to actual misoginists “you’re not attacking women, you’re attacking us, people, everyone.” If someone truely is a misoginyst they don’t care what happens to women, if you frame them as attacking people though men are no longer framed as being ‘on their side’. It becomes the whole of society against one loud moron. Don’t ever defend someone ‘because they’re a women’, defend them because they’re being attacked or wronged and they can’t handle it by themselves.

Daisycutter: I called you out for jumping on a commenter who (perhaps naively) wanted more civil discourse. I pointed out that calling him an idiot and an asshole pretty much makes YOU the troll. And from this you somehow assume that I am a “dood” and a mansplainer. Hint: people can disagree with you without being evil/stupid etc.
ruteekatreya: see above.
For the record, Jay Smooth is awesome.