Let the Hot Stove begin

This morning marks the official opening of Hot Stove Season. You’re going to see a ton of rumors flying over the next few weeks and months. All we ask is that you keep things in perspective.

Writers have a job to do. They need to fill column inches of a newspaper with material which will garner eyeballs. This can bring about legitimate rumors for sure. However, it can also bring idle speculation. Case in point: Ken Davidoff this morning. I know he doesn’t write the headlines, but this one is particularly misleading: “Don’t expect Yankees to meet Teixeira’s price.” I read through it, hoping to find some kind of indication of the Yankees’ thinking. Instead, I got this disappointing payoff: “It would be a shocker if the Yankees paid Teixeira the 10 years and $200 million that Boras will request.”

Gee, thanks for that. I won’t rip the rest of the article — I’m trying to cut down on that — but I think I’ve made my point. There’s a lot of rewriting going on which can be masked with a spiffy new headline. Most of the time, you can take a lesson from Public Enemy: Don’t believe the hype.

Then we have Frank Della Femina from the Star Ledger. His blog post this morning quotes the Paper Which Shall Not Be Named, saying that the Yankees “did not rule out interest” in Manny Ramirez. The headline: “Yankees may be in market for Manny Ramirez.”. Once again, this is taking a small quip — or non-quip, if you will — and turning it into an attention-seeking headline. yet, after reading the article we have no greater understanding than before.

We’re going to see a lot of this. We’re going to get a lot of comments saying “I read so and so, and he said the Yankees might be interested in [blank].” Yes, the Yankees might be interested, just as they might be interested in every player on all 30 rosters, including their own. This does not, however, mean that they’re going to do something about it. Chances are, it’s just idle speculation based on some over-interpreted quote or non-comment.

Taking all this into consideration, I’m going to lay out a few things we need to keep in mind as winter rolls in and the Hot Stove gets warmer. It’ll help keep things in perspective, and keep some sanity amongst us.

1) The Yankees could potentially have interest in any free agent. You’re going to see reports connecting the Yanks to many players, most of which are a ploy to bump up the player’s price tag. Sometimes they’ll be interested, sometimes they won’t be. Until there’s an agreement in principle, though, it’s all just noise.

2) Brian Cashman does not have mind control capabilities. I remember back in June or so, someone I know went on a tirade about how the Yankees have to get Matt LaPorta. The Brewers need pitching, and supposedly we have a lot in our farm system. If Cashman doesn’t get him, either we don’t have a good system, or he’s not doing his job. Sorry. This is poor, poor logic. You can’t just force another team to trade you a player. If you’re getting someone established, or someone with a perceived high ceiling, you’re going to pay the price. Many times, the price tag on a player is more than a team is willing to pay. Yeah, having these players is nice, but sometimes the cost doesn’t justify the move. Cashman can’t make someone trade us a valuable player for Melky, IPK, and Shelley Duncan.

3) IPK and Melky will get us no one good. Dems the breaks. They both have low perceived value, and the Yanks are better off holding onto them at this point. You can argue that the Yankees should have traded Kennedy last winter, but first you have to ask yourself 1) who was interested? and 2) what would we have gotten back? None of you can answer those questions. The only Kennedy deal we ever heard of was Santana, and clearly he was not the centerpiece of that one.

4) The Yankees have a plan. You don’t go into the off-season without having a few plans, really. Your primary plan, then a few backups in case one signing or other doesn’t work out. They’re going to act according to this plan, not according to what we yell on the boards. We aren’t aware of all the parameters they work under, just as we aren’t aware of all the information they have.

Manny Ramirez doesn’t fit the Yankees’ desire to get younger and more athletic, but several industry sources believe the Yankees will make a serious push for the free agent to play right field next year. Though GM Brian Cashman says the top offseason priority is starting pitching, he did not rule out interest in the 36-year-old Ramirez.

i followed a link that said “Yankees will make serious push for Manny” to get to this blurb.

Meaning, probably 90% of the articles written by these boobs would be red flagged by Wikipedia, because whenever someone says ““several industry sources” tell them something, it’s usually hot bullshit.

radnom

I’m going to be pedantic here, but this doesn’t apply.

Wikipedia strives to be an encyclopedia. Using weasel words like that is completely unacceptable without sourcing it, and is usually just a method for people to insert there opinion while trying to make it seem unbiased.
Instead of: “This guy sucks”
they go: “Top experts say this guy sucks”

This isn’t necessarily bad in journalism when you want to report on rumors going around without directly putting someone’s name to it, which could have consequences for them.

So, the use of citing “various sources” isn’t necessarily the problem, it is only when the writer is using it to intentionally deceive. In encyclopedias, however, it is always unacceptable.

JohnC

Reminds me of something former Yankee GM Bob Watson said when asked by a reporter who George Steinbrenner ‘baseball people’ were. He said ‘Little people that run around inside his head’ Hilarious!

Slugger27

well put joe… some of us ((including myself)) make fun of the “ipk and melky for peavy” proposals… but the truth is, all they really are is a waste of time

as for the hot stove… if they dont sign tex, what do u see the yanks doing at 1st base? u think they should go with an inhouse platoon, or sign someone like minky for a year? cash made it clear hes not keen on moving damon or posada there

http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph P.

I think you just have to roll with it and see what opens up. Clearly, none of the free agents look enticing enough. I also don’t like the idea of a platoon, because then your’e dedicating two roster spots to first base.

steve (different one)

I also don’t like the idea of a platoon, because then your’e dedicating two roster spots to first base.

that depends. half of your platoon could be Nady or Posada.

actually, using Posada as the righty half of a 1B platoon could be a pretty smart way to nurse him through the season.

Nady would also work well if they picked up Juan Rivera. he’d play RF against LHP.

i’m not advocating either of these ideas per se, but there are creative ways to make this work. i am assuming Miranda would be the lefty half of the 1B platoon.

Yeah, Posada/Miranda/Nady wouldn’t be all that bad, but I’m concerned about who’s in RF or C all those games we’d be playing Posada or Nady at first.

If we miss out on Tex, would you do Adam Dunn at first?

greg

That’s not a bad idea. Molina isn’t terrible against lefties either, with a career .704 ops. I do prefer Teixeira because he brings defense and offense to the table, but if the Yanks can’t land him, a platoon of Posada/Miranda at first could work, and help Posada stay healthy and effective throughout the season.

Matt

Top 5 Targets For the Yankees in the Off Season:
1) Sign CC, pretty much at whatever cost it takes
2) Address their needs at 1B, with a defensive/solid hitting player, via trade
3) Figure out what to do with Joba (starter/relief?), Mussina (if he comes back, how long/much), Pettitte (1 yr deal), Hughes/Kennedy (fix them)
4) See what kind of value you can get for Cano. Does he bring in an ace-like pitcher, does he bring in a CF like Matt Kemp from LAD?
5) Figure out what the fuck is going on the the outfeild.
-Melky/Gardner isn’t going to cut it, they are both valuable as 4th outfielders/late inning defensive replacements.
-Bobby Abreu? Is he coming back at around 14-16 a year?
-Damon/Nady, where do they fit?

I personally would like to see an outfield of Damon in LF, Kemp (for Cano, and we get others) in CF, and Nady in RF.

CC is obvious, 7 years 165, but obviously throw the kitchen sink at him.

1B, is a tough, glairing need, perhaps keeping Giambi for 1 more year isn’t all that bad. He is 30 HR potential, and if you back him up with a defensive specialist you can split his time with Posada at first.

Get value for Cano while you can. I love his potential, but flat out; he’s lazy, and seems like NY and the money got to him. If you can get Kemp and bullpen help or a AA pitching prospect, B grade, that’s fine. Mind you, he’ll be great on the Dodgers and probably win a batting title someday… This then leaves an obvious hole at 2B, Orlando Hudson is your solution.

u cant just say “trade for a defensive/solid hitting 1st baseman” without offering what the actual trade would be… maybe if u wanna sign minky to a 1 year deal or something… but i have no idea what defensive/solid hitting 1st baseman u had in mind to trade for

steve (different one)

what is the rationale behind trading Kemp for Cano from the Dodgers’ perspective?

they are VERY similar players. Cano plays a more valuable position (if you believe that Kemp is stretched in CF), but Kemp is younger and cheaper.

if the Dodgers had excess pitching to trade, that might make sense. but trading Kemp for Cano just fills one hole by opening another.

Top 5 Targets For the Yankees in the Off Season:
1) Sign CC, pretty much at whatever cost it takes

Uh-huh, I’m with you,

2) Address their needs at 1B, with a defensive/solid hitting player, via trade

Via trade? Why use valuable prospects in a trade, when there are good options on the FA market?

3) Figure out what to do with Joba (starter/relief?), Mussina (if he comes back, how long/much), Pettitte (1 yr deal), Hughes/Kennedy (fix them)

Do we really still have to “figure out what to do with Joba”? Isn’t this settled already? Should we go back in time and see if we can convert Bubba Crosby into a reliever to pitch in the crucial 12th inning of the 2004 ALCS, so that Paul Quantrill doesn’t give up that homer, or can we all agree that the past is the past and Joba’s a starter?

4) See what kind of value you can get for Cano. Does he bring in an ace-like pitcher, does he bring in a CF like Matt Kemp from LAD?

Let me save you the trouble. Dealing Cano for Kemp makes no sense, because it took a bad 2008 season for Cano to regress to the level of Kemp; before this anomaly, he was a better offensive player. And, Kemp plays a less important defensive position, and plays it poorer than Cano plays 2B. So, it’s a bad deal for us.

Furthermore, every proposed Cano deal is either bad for us and we shouldn’t do it, or it’s bad for the other team and they’d never do it. STOP TRYING TO TRADE ROBINSON CANO. It’s unworkable.

And yes, I know that you think you’re going to slot Orlando Hudson, or (for some people, Rafael Furcal) in to replace the Cano spot at 2B… both of those are horrid ideas. Hudson and Furcal are both over 30, smallish, injury risks who can’t approximate Robinson Cano’s production. People, you don’t deal good young 25 year old middle infielders simply because there’s expensive declining over-30 middle infielders on the free agent market you can replace them with. That’s counterintuitive. Robinson Cano is part of our future. Orlando Hudson and Rafael Furcal are part of someone else’s past… and they’d be more expensive and much more prone to becoming a sunk cost. Bad idea.

-Melky/Gardner isn’t going to cut it, they are both valuable as 4th outfielders/late inning defensive replacements.

Okay. I’m not sure if Melky’s even that anymore, but whatever.

-Bobby Abreu? Is he coming back at around 14-16 a year?

Why bring back Bobby at 14-16 a year, when guys like Manny Ramirez, Adam Dunn, and Pat Burrell are available? If we’re going to commit those kinds of dollars to an aging, no-defense player, why not get one who’s a great hitter instead of just a good hitter? Or, if Mike Cameron shakes loose, why not go that route and spend less money to get a guy who’s actually a defensive plus centerfielder? All of those scenarios sound better to me, and losing Bobby while bringing in one of those alternatives is a net swing of at least one sandwich pick gained, to boot.

-Damon/Nady, where do they fit?

LF and RF, or DH and RF, respectively. Either scenario is fine.

Get value for Cano while you can. I love his potential, but flat out; he’s lazy, and seems like NY and the money got to him.

None of that makes any sense. Trading Cano is a move we will eventually rue, just like Trebek.

RJ – CT

DO NOT TRADE CANO! He’s our only player under 30 and 1 bad year isn’t enought to quit on him, especially since he is signed. I can’t believe what i’m hearing when people say sign Hudson. Yes, lets get older of all things!!

I appreciate the attempt to try to stave off the wave of stupidity that is going to overtake this board over the next few months, but I feel it is a hopeless cause.

Spring training can’t come fast enough.

Matt

I’d do Cano for Kemp straight up then…and yeah, I have to look at what solid defensive/hitting 1B is out there, but the more I thought about it during the post, why at 1 year Giambi with defensive caddy and Posada at 1st with Miranda in the wings, that kid looks for real.

And for anyone who wants the kid from Pittsburgh, McLouth, I’m not 100% sold on him. He’s gonna cost a lot, Cano and a pitcher, and possibly a 3rd, and this was his breakout year, see if he’s doing this at the trade deadline or after next year….

Steve S

How much are we operating that the $185M is the cap? Because I just dont see people acknowledging that as true. And is that $185M new yearly cap or something that Cashman is simply the target for 2009?

I really think center field is the bigger issue over first base. I think starting pitching takes priority just because Sabathia is available. But I hope Cash doesnt get over involved in the remaining characters unless he can find a bargain or a guy willing to sign short term.

And perhaps Mike A can provide some insight- who are the guys that can realistically play roles in 2009- obviously gardner/Melky, Melancon and perhaps Miranda. But is there anyone else. For example with all of these Robbie Cano rumors, beyond Orlando Hudson, do the Yankees have anyone close or ready to play 2B everyday in the majors?

I dont like putting Crawford in center- Tampa for some reason never put him there and I understand they had Baldelli and Upton, but Baldelli was hurt often and Upton was a converted second baseman shortstop and they still felt they needed to keep Crawford in left. I also dont like banking on him becoming a free agent.

As for AJAX, I think hell be good but it would be nice to have insurance. The only stuff I have heard is Kemp but the Kemp deal is robbing Peter to pay Paul. Kemp looks like he is the right handed Robbie Cano offensively. I don’t know, but I just feel like first base could have more solutions, even if there isnt one now. Its easier to develop or acquire a first base. And Texiera is going to be such an extended investment. Davidoff is right, he is going to have a bunch of teams after him- he didnt even mention Baltimore which might be the team willing to offer the biggest contract.

steve (different one)

I don’t know, but I just feel like first base could have more solutions, even if there isnt one now. Its easier to develop or acquire a first base.

is it though? i know this is the conventional wisdom, but it seems like the big time bats in the draft recently (LaPorta, Alonso, Smoak, Hosmer, etc) are way off the board by the time the Yankees pick.

i’m not trying to claim that i know the answer to this, but it just seems to me that the odds of drafting and developing a 1Bman who will be as productive as Teixeira will be over the next 10 years are really, really slim.

Steve S

No I agree but it seems to me that when looking over the last couple of years there have been guys available for first base that arent as good as Texiera but could have filled the vacancy. I love the idea of texiera but I hate the idea of him for seven or eight years. Im just venting I have no clue. The Beltran decision now ways heavy.

steve (different one)

agree 100% on Beltran. we all know why it happened (and the decision is compounded by Navarro’s emergence), but i think Beltran is a good argument for why the Yankees SHOULD sign Teixeira.

this is why:

players who are good at both offense AND defense, don’t hit FA very often. especially at 28 years old.

the Yankees should have signed Beltran and kept Vazquez. they probably would have missed the playoffs in 2005, but they would have been MUCH better off in 2006-2010….

As for Carl Crawford, I personally think he could handle CF, it’s just that the Rays have been so inundated with super-speedsters who are just better centerfielders with bigger ranges (Baldelli, Upton, Delmon Young, Joey Gathright, Elijah Dukes) that there was never need/opportunity to move him to center. Remember, Crawford was recruited to Nebraska to play option quarterback… he’s plenty fast and athletic

Holliday + Dunn would benefit this team more than Tex. I know Holliday will cost some prospects, but aside from Tabata, we have hoarded them all for, I can only assume a trade like this.

I have a feeling Dunn will be undervalued this season because the questions of his commitment. I see a guy who never misses games and hitting in front of AROD could put up 50 homers and when he walks that is another guy on base for our big man. From watching him I admit he is not a gold glover, but for a big guy he is somewhat athletic – at least enough that he will give us more runs than he takes away.

A deeper lineup is better than a line-up with superstars in the middle and nothing left at the bottom. Think of the old Yankees – never an MVP, but pitchers would say that it was a difficult team to pitch too because there were no easy outs. Depend on 3 or 4 guys and they slump – you lose.

Finally, regarding the budgett. Two things I believe must be considered:

1. This is a key year for acquiring pitching. If people remember correctly last season the pro-santana fans rightly so said ACES’s never make it to free agency. Well this year you have a young Ace and two young solid number Two pitchers (Sheets and Burnett)

2. In addition to losing bad contracts this year, we will lose more next year.

3. This is the perfect storm for this team – alot of payroll off the books, new stadium and no revenue sharing, increased revenues, a great free agent class, and a team that missed the playoffs for the first time since the strike shortened 94 season. Hank needs to show something here.

Assuming they do sign 2 young very good/great pitchers it will free the team up to part with some pitching prospects – kennedy, aceves, even hughes. I am not talking of giving them away, but this may be the time for Cash to unload some bullets and for the yanks to spend spend spend.

Steve S

Holliday will cost money and prospects- he is a free agent after 2009 so will probably require an extension considering the prospect package Colorado would want.

Sheets is 30 and Burnett is 31- not young for pitchers, especially on a five year deals.

christopher

its not exactly old either – I would say each (providing they stay healty) has a good 5 years in them. If there were better options out there I would jump on them, but we are not getting lincecum or a pitcher of his ilk

Steve S

I dont think I suggested Tim Lincecum.

For pitchers with their health histories- Burnett and Sheets are old, no way to call that young, they are north of 30 and probably on the decline. I would lay money that neither can make it through five healthy seasons and Im not going out on a limb saying that.

I like how you make a faulty assumption less than 50 words into your commentary.

I know Holliday will cost some prospects, but aside from Tabata, we have hoarded them all for, I can only assume a trade like this.

Wrong. We’re not “hoarding prospects” just so we can trade them for a player like Holliday, an overrated corner outfielder about to get paid well beyond what his artificially inflated levels of production would warrant. We’re “hoarding prospects” to have them contribute at the major league level, like Wang, Joba, and Cano have done over the past few years.

If we do trade prospects, it should be for a real superstar, not for Matt Holliday.

Murph1010

I still think they need to trade for an up-and-coming ace and even if they have to give up their good, proven prospects. CC isn’t gonna cut it, they need a younger and cheaper guy. Trade for a big pitching prospect, and sign Dunn and Manny and now you have a team. If you can’t trade for a proven ace pitching prospect, just get burnett.

Slugger27

“trade for up and coming ace” …. “they need a younger and cheaper guy” …. “trade for a big pitching prospect”

ok i got it… u keep joba, that solves the first problem…. u dont trade joba, that solves the second problem…. u keep joba, that solves the 3rd problem

dont forget CMW

radnom

Seriously, people forget about him for some reason. If we sign CC that is 3 ‘aces’ under 30. THREE.

Slugger27

i dont know what hes lookin for… CMW and joba are both “young” …. both “cheap” …. both “ace pitching” types… and add CC on top of that and he thinks we STILL dont have enough young, ace pitchers???

ill agree our depth needs work… but u couldnt realistically ask for a better top 3 in our rotation… especially if youth is important to u

christopher

dont consider burnett or sheets Aces which is why one would slot in perfectly with mussina or petitte

Okay, so maybe I should have said “Young, cost controlled quality aces just don’t get traded until they reach free agency, when the cease to be either young or cost controlled, except in casses of massively stupid brainfarts by GM’s asleep at the wheel, or Florida Marlins/Montreal Expos-style firesales.”

Mike Pop

We could get Greinke without Joba himself…..You shoulda went through 20 tho.. Joba Hughes and Kennedy would all be in the top 20 right ???!?!?!?!?

christopher

EXACTLY why you sign sabathia – Aces on the FA market are very very tough to come by and this year as an exeption recent history has shown that they dont get traded too often. I dont know if any of those teams would trade their guy for joba

Matt

Why is everyone ready to go a full season with Gardner?? I know he was only up for a short time, and didn’t look great, but I just don’t see this guy as a major league ball player.

If you full belive Austin Jackson is real deal, why not sign a guy like Cam for a year, or 2? He was a great pickup and value for the Brewers.

Would anyone else here seriously consider trading for Prince Feilder? The Brewers are reportedly willing to listen for offers…

steve (different one)

If you full belive Austin Jackson is real deal, why not sign a guy like Cam for a year, or 2?

well, if the Brewers decline his option, it is very possible that the Yankees WILL do that.

Chip

The 1998 Yankees were one of the best teams in the history of baseball with Chad Curtis in left field. He hit .247/.355/.360 in left field which is considered more of a power spot than center field. Gardner also brings better defense and more speed on the basepaths than Curtis.

Moral of the story, we can run a AAA team out there if our pitching and defense is good enough. Those same 1998 Yankees had only 6 guys make more than 2 starts. That means their starting pitchers were healthy the entire year which means they weren’t throwing anybody in the mold of Ponson or Rasner out there half the year. Quality, healthy starting pitching wins championships

steve (different one)

Quality, healthy starting pitching wins championships

well, that or having 1 really good starter (Hamels), 1 soft tossing 45 year old, and a cast of mediocrity.

Chip

That’s very true but the Rays would have never made there it if any two of their starters had gone down mid-season. I’d say the Phillies are an aberration rather than the rule.

The Rays this season were just one of those teams that had everything fall into place at just the right time and kept all their starters healthy. I think they’re at a new level of being competitive but you have to remember that both the Red Sox and Yankees were in down years and the Sox still just about stole it from them.

radnom

Playing in the NL helps too.

steve (different one)

no doubt. just found it amusing the WS winners have Jamie Moyer as their #2 starter.

same goes for Jeff Weaver/Suppan and the 2006 Cardinals.

i don’t think either of those rotation makes it out of the first round in the AL.

It goes to show that, as noted in the previous post, there’s too many off days in the postseason. Play every day and force these teams to either use a fifth starter and whole bullpen or constantly go on short rest.

christopher

you forget that the yankees got offense from non-traditional sources that year – CF (big time), SS, and 2B

planet

I think they are trying to get the payroll around $185mill so that they can sign Lebron after 2010

THIS 185 million payroll is absolute crap. If this team is picking now to essentially cut salary – a year after they missed the playoffs than something is wrong.

I cant believe this is cashman’s ego at play so it must be that hank and hal are not like their father and want to make money rather than win games. the 50 million the have left may net them Sabathia and Tex, but who else. This team has far too many holes left to fill unless everyone feels comfortable handing phil a slot in the rotation next season out of ST.

How good is AJAX defensively? Good they give him a shot to win the job out of ST not expecting him to hit much, but provide good defense. Probably a stupid idea, I just dont want to watch melky’s hitting anymore. he is a great defensive replacement becasue he can effectively play any OF position — just not a starter

steve (different one)

the 50 million the have left may net them Sabathia and Tex, but who else.

so you are actually suggesting that if the Yankees sign the two biggest FA’s of the winter, who happen to be two of the biggest non-AROD FA’s of the last decade, that it will be “absolute crap” and because “Hank and Hal want to make money”??

have Yankee fans lost ALL of their perspective, or just 99% of it?

christopher

since when did
tex become the biggest free agent since AROD – what about Giambi former MVP Tejada and many more.

dont get me wrong, i thing Tex is great,but to call him the greatest free agent since AROD is crazy

steve (different one)

dont get me wrong, i thing Tex is great,but to call him the greatest free agent since AROD is crazy

good thing i didn’t say that then.

i said “biggest” free agent. meaning biggest contracts.

you were basically calling the Yankees cheap if they “only” signed Sabathia and Teixeira.

i was asking how signing 2 of the most expensive FA’s of the last 10 years would indicate that Hank and Hal were only interested in making money??

christopher

only that i feel this is the season to remake the team – go 40 million above the 185 and you get it back next year.

this is a free agent class that I have been looking forward to since 2003 and its one with good young players to build a team around for many years.

i was simply asking if this is cashmans self imposed limit to show he doesnt need 200 million to win or if its handed down.

as a fan i want them to spend every penny they can on players and we certainly know that they can spend over 185 million

Brian

Following on your what MiLB guys can help, Mike, you may not have meant to leave off IPK? Maybe you did, but I think IPK will have decent NY outings despite the party line that he will get no handouts this year. Even if we get CC, IPK and Aceves will probably get some starts….if Rasner et al don’t chomp them all up.

http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

Nah, I figured that guys like Hughes, IPK and Aceves were already understood to be guys that could contribute.

Brian

gotcha. speaking of rasnerdazzler, will he be back?

http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

I don’t see why not. He’s a nice 7th or 8th starter.

steve (different one)

this is just my opinion, but i think no.

he is out of options, so unless the yankees plan to keep him on the active roster all year, they would have to pass him through waivers at some point. i think this time around, someone would claim him.

nmc

No reason he can’t be a longman. better than O-Kei Dokei or poor Pudding Britton

christopher

1 year options for CF

Edmonds who would take a one year deal

baldelli – always loved him when healthy. may exept an incentive laden deal.

http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph P.

Edmonds isn’t a terrible idea. He’s old and is an injury risk, though. Still, you could do worse as a stopgap.

Yeah, Edmonds and Cameron are both reasonable outfield options. I’d like to add one outfielder, through FA and not a trade, and they’re both signings that wouldn’t anger me, since they’re both shorttimers who can play center.

EDUB

god im sick of seeing peoples rotations with joba and hughes in there. we are not starting two kids again this year. joba MAYBE gets the 5th spot but hughes will start in AAA unless he doesnt give up a hit in all of spring training

http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph P.

Considering Cashman has said the only two in-stone rotation spots are Wang and Joba, I’d say you’re pretty wrong there, buddy.

EDUB

I said Joba maybe gets the 5th spot. Ill bet you as much money as you want that Hughes will be in AAA to start the season.

EDUB

And the maybe is contingent on him being healthy enough to start

steve (different one)

right, and Joseph is saying Joba isn’t a “maybe”. he’s a “definite”.

he wasn’t talking about Hughes.

the Yankees would prefer to start the season with Hughes in AAA. i think that seems obvious reading between the lines of what Cashman has said.

but that probably involves Moose coming back or being able to land 2 big fish in the FA market. neither of those things are guaranteed.

EDUB

Well my general point is this. Joba will be on an innings limit next year and has shown that he may have some serious shoulder issues. Cashman by saying that he will start in the rotation just wants to end the reliever talk. Joba, if he is healthy, will be in the 5th hole so he can be kept under an innings limit. My point is that there is no room for Hughes in there. My prediction is he is the first call up in the event of an injury. That is all.

Chip

I completely agree with you that Cashman would love that to happen in an ideal world. Problem is, if they don’t sign the guys they want to sign, you could end up with Hughes being their fifth best starting pitcher. Also, he won’t be on an innings limit

Kay Sturns

yeah Hughes will. He’ll get 140 to 160 max. Joba; 130. aceves and/or kennedy will be called to step up

Mike Pop

Lol @ the Lebron comment from Planet but this is basically what I think the Yanks will be looking to add. From FA- They will want to add one of Tex,Manny, and Dunn from the big hitters. Then we keep hearing that they want 2 of the 3 or 4 pitchers from CC, AJ, Lowe, Sheets. I really believe we need a true 1b we havent had a real productive one in the last 2 years. The 06 Giambi was alright but now he isnt what we need. Could we get Dunn to play 1st ? Maybe him and Nady could split time between first and the outfield. Its a possibility I think but Dunn would have to be okay with it. The reason Im for Dunn is because Nomaas made a good point he will probably cost half of what Texiera is and he takes alot of pitches and all, thats what the Yanks need. Tex is obviously the superior candidate for us but we keep hearing they are not crazy bout all that money and the long term.. I don’t think he is going to get more than 6 years just my opinion though.. Manny would be great but not more than 3 years which probably wont get it done.. Tex is the best option from FA unless we could sign one of Manny or Dunn and make a trade for a young 1b like Votto or Davis which is highly doubtful I know so dont chastise me… I think CF we will be okay if we just bring in another OF, between Melk, Brett, and Johnny we should be okay. Its obvious for the pitching that the best target is CC and I believe the 2nd guy should be AJ or Sheets, I say whoever has less years required. It would be great if we could trade for a young guy like Greinke but everyone knows that probably wont happen….. I say you add Tex, CC, and one of Burnett or Sheets and this team will be okay.. Bring in Camerion is another great option but not for more than 7 or 8 million………….Dont chastise me here saying Im asking for too much I am just thinking out loud about what their plans are…I want to bring Bobby back for 2 years just because his production is so valuable for the Yankees

christopher

what about giving baldelli a shot at CF

Matt from LI

“god im sick of seeing peoples rotations with joba and hughes in there. we are not starting two kids again this year. joba MAYBE gets the 5th spot but hughes will start in AAA unless he doesnt give up a hit in all of spring training”

Can agree with Hughes, but if Cashman already stated that Joba would be in our rotation, why not believe it? He guaranteed 2 spots in the rotation for 09′, Wang and Joba… I think its fair to pencil him in there.

Mike Pop

Mike Jacobs just got dealt, I dont understand why we didnt look into him.. I know hes not all that and a bag of chips but for a reliever who we have tons of.. Why not try it hes low cost, low risk high reward….I think we shoulda looked at him considering we could of got him and it was a nice low cost option.. But maybe that means TEX IS COMING TO THE BRONX!!!

Ivan

Mike Jacobs sucks. No defense, No OBP skill, and can’t hit for average. In the AL East against the pitchers he’ll face, it wouldn’t be pretty.

Mike Pop

ok Mr Knick himself.. But for Veras maybe what do you have to lose

Ivan

Marlins wouldn’t make that deal cuz Jacobs value was at it’s absolute highest. They wanted to trade him for something much better than a middle reliever like Veras.

you can’t just collect every player in the league because the cost to acquire them wasn’t that high.

BTW, Leo Nunez is a pretty good reliever. i’d much rather have him than Veras.

i’m not sure this was a great trade for the Royals.

Mike Pop

Ya because you probably know more than Dayton Moore. Im not saying collect every player once again so stop with that.. Hes a decent 1b, he fills a need and all of you are afraid to giv Tex a 7 year deal so why not give up a guy who is real easy to replace for him

steve (different one)

Jacobs isn’t a good player.

once you realize that, this argument will get a lot easier.

why do you want the Yankees to trade for players who aren’t good?

he doesn’t walk and can’t play defense.

he is a WORSE option than bringing Giambi back.

Mike Pop

Yup your right

nmc

worse stats but probably also 10 mil cheaper

Ivan

Also, I love the Knicks.

Rick in Boston

A solid reliever is what the Yankees would lose. And for a guy who isn’t that good.

Slugger27

u have veras to lose

steve (different one)

Mike Jacobs had a .299 OBP in 2008 and has a career .318 OBP.

i would rather the Yankees have traded for Brandon Jacobs to play 1B.

every time a player changes teams we can’t get upset that the Yankees didn’t get them.

Mike Pop

Ya cuz i said Im upset about it because they didnt get him.. Ya Id rather have Jacobs too–real intelligent point there… All im saying was we could of had him for nothing.. The dude hit 32 hrs I said he wasnt All thatt but for an extra reliever we have why not look into it.. Your telling me you rather have Menky and Miranda platoon there than Jacobs.. W.e the stats say Jacobs is going to be the more productive 1b…

steve (different one)

almost as intelligent as saying the Royals got him for nothing.

they didn’t.

Mike Pop

If they had an excess of relievers like we do the trade would look great.. Nunez is a 24 yr old nothing more than a setup man in the near future. Bruney, Edwar, Veras are all older but are all solid and can be setup men.. One of them and a little something else it would look like a fine deal for us and thats because it would be

steve (different one)

what i am trying to tell you is that the Marlins would prefer Nunez to all 3 of those guys.

a comparable Yankee reliever in terms of trade value would be Melancon.

Mike Pop

Ok dude like honestly w,e you win. I was just sayiing it could be a low risk move that could reward high.. I love how I get ridiculed for it… I said from the beginning I didnt believe he was great just a different type of option. I would rather have him than Giambi or some kind of wack platoon thats all I was saying and it turns into this…And it could be a better option than giving Tex a 7 year deal and we could put more money on pitching or for the outfield next year.

steve (different one)

no one is ridiculing you. just disagreeing.

i made what was, i admit, a lame joke about Brandon Jacobs, and you flipped out.

i apologize if you think i was attacking you, i wasn’t. just opposing the idea.

Mike Pop

Lol I dont think I flipped out but w.e dude we will soon have another argument on what the yanks should do that will make us forget all bout this one

steve (different one)

ok, then my bad.

i think there is something getting lost in translation here. it seemed like you were actually pissed the Yankees didn’t go for Jacobs, but i think that has more to do with your posting style.

it’s probably a generational thing, as i get the feeling i am about 10 years older than you…

Mike Pop

Lol 18 here

Kay Sturns

with steve. jacobs sucks. would play miranda full time before him

http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

Leo Nunez has a great arm. They didn’t get him for nothing.

http://www.riveraveblues.com Mike A.

Also, just because the didn’t get him doesn’t mean they didn’t inquire.

steve (different one)

right. and a corresponding price to Nunez is probably closer to Melancon than it is to Veras.

would you trade Melancon for Mike Jacobs?

Ivan

Hell No.

Mike Pop

LOL ok steve having a conversation with you about this is ridiculous… I hope one day your GM of the Yankees so you can lead us to the promise land

steve (different one)

actually, i’m pretty sure everyone here disagrees with you on this one.

not sure why you are singling me out.

Mike Pop

Its how you are in all arguments.. W.e guess im the asshole for voicing my opinion

Chip

Miranda might hit 32 hr’s next season as well but that doesn’t mean he’ll be a good player, it just means he’s gonna swing for the fences. At least with Giambi you also have the ability to draw a walk. I’d rather have Miranda start the season at 1B than trade one of our young, power arms in Melancon for somebody who might not even be better than Miranda

Mike Pop

Never said I’d deal Mark for him

http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph P.

While everyone has a right to an opinion, I’m with Steve here. Mike Jacobs just isn’t a good ballplayer. He might have some power, but that’s the only aspect of his game. And he’s horrible at first base. I’d far rather have Giambi back. By a long shot.

Tex fits every possible criteria of the yankees offseason plans. I cant imagine why people are advocating some sort of platoon for 1b when the best possible platoon out there is mark texiera by himself. He addresses almost every perceived weakness we have going into this offseason. Hes young, athletic, great defensively has great obp skillz and is a switch hitter to boot. There cannot possibly be a better fit for first on the FA market or anywhere else feasibly. Id have no qualms going an extra year or two with him because he’s a pretty agile dude who runs the bases very well for a 1b. Those guys tend to age alot better than the giambi/dunn types. This was an 89 win team without wanger and posada no need to get all crazy and trade for nate mcclouth..

Mike Pop

Tex is the best option… I was just thinking maybe Jacobs and Miranda can hold down the fort until there is a better replacement if we miss out on Tex.. or just dont want to give him the money…. Im all for him, I think he is the best 1b in the game next to Albert.. 5 4 3 2 1 boom here comes a debate

steve (different one)

Im all for him, I think he is the best 1b in the game next to Albert.. 5 4 3 2 1 boom here comes a debate

MIKE POP YOU’RE A STUPID JERKFACE HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY SAY THAT MARK CHMURA IS THE SECOND BEST PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE BEHIND ALBERT HAYNESWORTH GOD I HATE YOUR STUPID AZZ STFU!!!!1!!!!!!!!!!!1!!!!!!!

E-ROC

Jay Novacek would’ve been more gangsta than Mark Chmura.

Mike Pop

I hate you more

Murph1010

Jacobs is a real good player. He hit 32 bombs this past year and he’s got a cannon. Also he’s a smart hitter. I like that idea. If we could give up only Edwar and maybe bruney/coke for him, it fills our 1b hole and that way we don’t have to platoon.

Mike Pop

Dont start my friend, apparently you are wrong like me.. I wouldnt want to give up 2 of those 3 you mentioned tho..Id want to keep Coke cuz I like his style and I like him more than pepsi

Slugger27

i agree, coke much better than pepsi… although pepsi makes mt dew and that stuff is the shit

E-ROC

Jacobs was traded to the Royals for reasons that are beyond my understanding.

Mike Pop

Idk I think it was a good deal for him.. Royals need offensive help right.. Moore seems to think that his power is more important than obp for the Royals offense.. I think this might open them up to moving Billy Butler but who knows… 30 homers is pretty significant tho in my opinion. There was only 25 guys this year who reached that mark

E-ROC

True, but the Royals still have Kila Ka’aihue to play first.

http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph P.

Cannon doesn’t really help at first base. And he’s not a smart hitter. He’s not selective. He doesn’t take pitches. He has one positive attribute, his power, which is totally overpowered by his hacktastic ways and his lack of defense.

Jacobs is a real good player. He hit 32 bombs this past year and he’s got a cannon.

Rob Deer hit 32 homers twice.

nmc

I think something that he to be taken into consideration is the future. Why pay 7 years for Teixeira when your whole team is going to be turning over in a few years?

Maybe they’re waiting for 2010 or 2011 when Fielder, Ryan Howard, and (maybe) Albert are available, and when there’s less competition. It kind of sucks when you have the Angels, Mets, Sox, orioles -all big spenders- bidding on the same guy.

A) If your whole team is turning over, it would help to have a few cornerstones in your organization. Texy becomes one of those cornerstones (with ARod, Jeter, and Cano.)

B) Texy is way better than Fielder or Howard. Fielder and Howard both crush the ball, but they don’t get on base like Texy, they don’t field like Texy, and their body types are more injury prone than Texy is. Why wait for an inferior player when a superior one is on the market now, and when we have the prime opportunity to use our financial muscle?

yankeefan91 (sign manny)

sign ramirez and bat him behind arod this lineup will kick ass

Matt

I like Tex, I just wouldn’t trust him at 20-22mill for 10 years…

Is their anyway to get some value for Damon/Matsui? They were both great, and I loved them, but are dead weight right now.

How about as a 3rd or 4th starter going with Ollie Perez? What kind of money will he command?

Mike Pop

Gotta like Ollie’s stuff but I believe his whip is bad and he doesnt have great control…. Ive read on the past in this sight that people dont believe he will succeed in the AL east.. He is probably looking at 14 to 16 mill a year considering Silva got 12 last year

Steve S

I like Ollie but youll get hammered by a couple people here for that one. he is the youngest and if youre forced to give out the 4 year deal I wouldnt mind it being on the 26 year old lefty.

steve (different one)

yeah, not a big Oliver Perez fan, but i don’t want to break up the Steve-alliance.

to me, he’s just too much of a question mark. i don’t think i’ve ever seen a pitcher who can look so good and so bad in consecutive starts.

Let me make this right. I dont want Oliver Perez but if were forced to take a risk on either Sheets, Burnett or Perez then I could make an argument that the years and dollars being equal, Perez might be the better investment. All three carry risk.

In the end I would be happy with CC and Pettitte, I think that would be enough to get them back to 95-100 wins.

Meh, as much as Burnett scares the piss out of me, Perez scares me more. If the years and dollars are truly equal, I’d probably go 1) Sheets 2) Burnett 3) Perez.

But yes, CC-Wang-Joba-Pettitte-Hughes (plus Aceves-IPK-Giese-Sanchez-Coke) is more than enough for me.

Steve S

From what ive seen Perez is the lefthanded Burnett, he absolutely dominates the yankees and then loses it against other teams. I think we just notice it more with Perez because he pitches in Queens. Burnett didnt magically get theat over 4.00 ERA this year. He somehow managed to cough it up, and apparently against everyone except for the Yankees and Sox. You add him, you have cut those teams in half.

Sheets- I cant see why a team would give him more than two years but I know someone will be dumb enough to do it.

Thats why I said all things being equal I assume Burnett wants 5 but will probably get 4 and an option. If thats the market value- I would contemplate putting that money into Perez if Cashman thought he needed another starter beyond CC and Pettitte (or Mussina).

Im not sitting here doing hail marys for Perez but Id rather sink my money into the 26 year old who is healthy but inconsistent rather than the guys who seem to implode health wise every couple of years.

Kay Sturns

except burnett just put up that 4 era with a 10k/9 in our league. if the money and the years are similar, i don’t see how you could choose perez solely based on health and age. does the class of pitcher ever play into the decision [not a good one]?

Steve S

Because at four or five years I dont think AJ Burnett’s strikeout rate, who has an established pattern of missing time the years following a year where he pitched 200 innings, would be a good investment. Talent wise Sheets is the best of the three and if the contract was for two years I would say take Sheets. The point is not paying for what they have done but for what you expect them to do. AJ is what he is which is good starter who shows flashes of brilliance and is almost guaranteed to miss time when his contract is at stake. Perez has been a good starter the last two years who has shown flashes of dominance. Plus he doesnt have a history of injuries, including elbow and shoulder problems, so if I had to bet, I would bet on Perez.

You pay for what they have done in the past, I get that, but you would hope that when you are signing long term contracts there is common sense and youre analysis should take into account who projects to improve. I dont know if Perez will improve but I would put money on him to be the better pitcher and stay healthy over Burnett and his two out of five years striking out two hundred.

Steve S

And when discussing class pitcher take a look at the numbers. Perez managed to have a year where he was perhaps one of the most dominant pitchers in the majors- 145 OPS+ in his age 22 season. Unfortunately, the Pirates thought it was prudent that year to let him go from 126 inning the year before to 196 innings which resulted in a lot of problems. But in 2007 he demonstrated that he was capable of being a good pitcher when he put up a 120 OPS+. This past year he was a league average pitcher, which is discounted because he pitched in the NL East. BUT in games he won this year he wasnt lucky, he was dominant. He had 1.68 ERA and had 69 K in 65 innings. That demonstrates that there is talent there and if you have any confidence in the Yankee coaching you could say look take this project and make him a bargain at $15M per year.

http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph P.

Scott Boras is his agent. That should answer your last question.

steve (different one)

how is Damon “dead weight”?

he was a really valuable player this year.

now, he might not be as good in 2009, but i don’t think i’d go as far as to call him dead weight.

Matt

Maybe dead weight was a bad term, but he just doesn’t seem to fit.

Slugger27

damon fits… hes an OF, which we have a lack of… hes a true leadoff hitter, which we dont have… hes a basestealing threat, which we definitely have a lack of

i wouldnt be heartbroken if he was dealt… but who would play LF? if nady does, who would play RF? who would hit leadoff? jeter aint the most selective guy in the world, but i suppose u could stick him there

bottom line is, we need damon more than people think… and i guarantee hes worth more to us in 2009 than whatever we would get in return for him

dude jd is still one of the best leadoff hitters in the game right now plays an excellent defense in LF and is beloved by teammates and fans alike. Right now hes a salty vet still performing at a high level on what is now a 1 yr contract. Johnny demonic fits like a glove if you ask me.

Steve S

He did have the third most win shares for an outfielder in the American League. Im not the biggest fan in the world but it would be difficult to replace him especially considering we are going to replace Giambi and Abreu’s production.

He doesn’t fit??? So who DOES fit into the lead-off spot then? Jeter? You really want Cano 2nd? Before last season, I expected Cano to have a superstar-type year and be ready to take over for Bobby in the 3 hole in ’09, but after his step back that won’t be happening. I do still think hitting in front of A-Rod would do wonders for him, just like it did for A-Rod in front of Junior. Maybe in ’10……….

nmc

I think the lineup should be:

Damon
Jeet
ARod
Teix/Manny
Posada
Matsui
Nady
Cano
Gardner

I’ve always thought that ARod was more of a table-setter than a RBI man.. sure, he gets a lot of RBIs because he hits em out, but he always seems to get on base when you need a baserunner and (lately) not do so well when you need an RBI (obviously small sample sizes). if you look at his career stats, batting 3rd he is only slightly better (but 30 points higher in OPS.. almost all slugging there), but a lot of years he scored more runs than RBI.

If you think about the late situations, it’s sometimes obvious that he’s pressing. I think if Alex had better protection, (someone earlier mentioned Manny), it would do wonders for him. look at his 2 out, RISP numbers: low BA for him, but an above .400 OBP? it’s partially because he gets pitched around, but also because he’s more of a table-setter. it’s when he thinks he’s got to drive the runs in that he fails. Who’d you rather pitch to: Alex or Giambi? Giambi, easy. now, how about Alex or Manny? not so easy. Giambi (recently) sucked the life out of the middle of the Yankees order with such a low BA in the 5 spot. IMHO. I’d really like to get Teix or Manny to add some power + average to the middle of the order. (which is why I don’t want to get rid of Matsui. power, average, consistency, just need to keep the damn man on the field.)

Matt

I just am of the “Trade Cano for value and sign O.Hudson for 2-3years” group…

Unless you want to bat him 9th to turn over the lineup. The only thing in a lead off hitter I want is .obp, because he’s only the lead off hitter 1 time a game.

But what if you can’t “trade Cano for value”? In order for this to be a logical line of thought, we have to get back a player (or players) for Cano who will be excellent players for the next 10 years, because that’s what Cano can be (an excellent player for the next ten years.) You’re creating a huge hole at 2B, and as you said yourself, Hudson is only filling that hole for 2-3 years, tops. Then, we’re likely going to have to get another expensive veteran FA to replace the declining Hudson, since we have no good middle infielders in the pipeline.

All of us are willing to trade anyone to get better. I have yet to see a deal that sounds like a deal where we lose Cano and get better, except for the pie in the sky deals where we get a frontline starter for Cano and a bag of balls, deals that wouldn’t happen.

And no, Cano for Kemp does NOT make us better. It makes us worse.

Kay Sturns

thank you, it seems every post of matt’s is about trading cano… enough already. he is not being traded.

Abreu/Giambi/Pudge/Pavano/Mussina off the books this year
Pettitte/Damon/Matsui/Nady/Marte/Molina/Betemit off the books the next
Rivera off the books after 2010

$150M in total AAV salary obligations gone over the next 24 months, with only Jeter being re-upped and with Wang/Cano already locked in. We can add Texy, CC, Manny, and proactively buy out the arbitration years of Joba and Hughes and STILL maintain a sub 190M payroll through most of the next decade, even with fat ARod and Jeter salaries.

Steve S

They are going to be over $220M for next year though, unless you really backload these contracts.

If you assume $140 in obligations (pre-arbitration) now and:

Tex- $22
CC- $23
Manny- $22
Marte- $6
Pettitte- $12

You take into account raises for Nady and Wang. You might be closer to $240M. Even for the new stadium thats a lot to ask for them to pay.

And the overall commitment would be for close to half a billion $ for Manny Tex and CC over the course of say 7 years.

AROD_must_go

Rotate Gardner to give off days to Matsui (DH Manny) and Damon. With the rest of that lineup, the Yanks can afford 60 games of Gardner in CF.

I’m certain that my handle dones’t anger EVERYONE.

AROD MUST GO! He is a clubhouse cancer and will NEVER hit in the clutch!

Kay Sturns

as long as it remains sarcasm, i guess it is fine

FL Yank

How come there’s been no talk of Jon Garland? All he does is throw strikes, get ground balls, and rack up innings.

http://www.riveraveblues.com Joseph P.

Way too much money for him. Dude had a 1.5 WHIP last year.

FL Yank

True the WHIP isn’t pretty, but he’s much more of a sure bet to give you innings over Sheets and Burnett. Also his BAA was 30 points higher this year than last year which might show a change of luck. Also being a groundball pitcher on a team with a defensively challenged infield like the Angles probably didn’t help. You could do much worse for a 4th/5th starter.

Kay Sturns

why would we want him after his change of luck, unless you think there is a possibility he can find more?

cupz

Anybody see a potential for Greinke/DeJesus? We’d have to liquidate the farm, but it’s at least worth a phone call, no?

shamac

I remember back in June or so, someone I know went on a tirade about how the Yankees have to get Matt LaPorta.

If only. I was so pissed at the Brewers for taking Matty L. 7th in the draft if only because I was hoping by some miracle he’d fall to the Yanks. Hey, maybe it’ll happen one day. But I doubt the Indians are going to trade him away so soon. Not unless the return is BIG.