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I have owned the Kawai MP6 stage piano for the past two years. I have read many reviews/evaluations, etc., here in the forums. What is missing, and would be most helpful for me as a user, is a thread which adresses the questions about specific settings, tweaks, insights, playing experience, speakers, accessories, etc. The list goes on and on.

I had thought about adressing specific questions to Kawai James, but the more I read the forums, the more I see that he has his hands full already (and probably his time). So, I would like to hear from other MP6 users about your experience with this board; how you adjust it for optimization; onboard sounds and how you're using them...and anything else that might be helpful to you also. I'm hoping that here we can be practical, and avoid the techno stuff; most of which is way over my head. Not that I'm not willing and eager to learn; I just need it expressed in layman's terms.

As a first question I'd like to ask what tone settings are you using (Cutoff/Attack/Decay/Release) to get the optimal sound for your samples? Here (at least at first), I'm speaking of the piano samples. What say ye?H.K.

As a first question I'd like to ask what tone settings are you using (Cutoff/Attack/Decay/Release) to get the optimal sound for your samples? Here (at least at first), I'm speaking of the piano samples.

First a disclaimer: I sold my MP6 recently and so am no longer a user.

In a recent thread I posted that a very slight increase in the decay time can yield positive results for a more smooth-playing piano. However we're talking +1 or +2. Beyond that the decay becomes very unrealistic and synthy. Theoretically, a slight counterclockwise (-) turn of the cutoff control could provide a darker piano, but it's likely to just make it sound muffled. Personally, I would leave the other tone controls alone and turn to EQ for further variation.

Here, you need to experiment. I can't remember the settings, but I managed to reduce the harsh quality in the upper mids without affecting the overall clarity of the sound. (By contrast, I found that the internal "mellow" settings took away more of the piano sound's "sparkle.") One way to approach this is to start by turning the amount of mid EQ up or down to its fullest extent and then, while playing, dial the mid frequency control to where you hear the greatest impact on that part of the piano sound's frequency spectrum that you want to change. Having established that, dial back the amount control until you find the sweet spot.

A number of people, myself included, have found the default velocity curve somewhat inadequate for playing pp. This was most noticeable with the earliest operating system. If you haven't already done so, you should update to the latest OS. Then try setting a user velocity curve (explained in the manual). It may or may not help. Someone said recently, that they had to change the setting to the "hard" curve preset for acoustic piano patches.

One of the great things about the MP6 is the ease with which you can change most of these things. It really is a well-designed interface. Good luck with your experimentation.

_________________________"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

As a first question I'd like to ask what tone settings are you using (Cutoff/Attack/Decay/Release) to get the optimal sound for your samples? Here (at least at first), I'm speaking of the piano samples.

First a disclaimer: I sold my MP6 recently and so am no longer a user.

In a recent thread I posted that a very slight increase in the decay time can yield positive results for a more smooth-playing piano. However we're talking +1 or +2. Beyond that the decay becomes very unrealistic and synthy. Theoretically, a slight counterclockwise (-) turn of the cutoff control could provide a darker piano, but it's likely to just make it sound muffled. Personally, I would leave the other tone controls alone and turn to EQ for further variation.

Here, you need to experiment. I can't remember the settings, but I managed to reduce the harsh quality in the upper mids without affecting the overall clarity of the sound. (By contrast, I found that the internal "mellow" settings took away more of the piano sound's "sparkle.") One way to approach this is to start by turning the amount of mid EQ up or down to its fullest extent and then, while playing, dial the mid frequency control to where you hear the greatest impact on that part of the piano sound's frequency spectrum that you want to change. Having established that, dial back the amount control until you find the sweet spot.

A number of people, myself included, have found the default velocity curve somewhat inadequate for playing pp. This was most noticeable with the earliest operating system. If you haven't already done so, you should update to the latest OS. Then try setting a user velocity curve (explained in the manual). It may or may not help. Someone said recently, that they had to change the setting to the "hard" curve preset for acoustic piano patches.

One of the great things about the MP6 is the ease with which you can change most of these things. It really is a well-designed interface. Good luck with your experimentation.

voxpops...Thanks so much for your reply. Great information which I will study and attempt to apply. I'll post my results/evaluation here. I, too, found that the original settings for each sample left much to be desired. And just as you explained about the decay, I find that anything beyond level 3 renders the sound unacceptable. I do have the latest firmware. I will recheck my manual concerning the velocity curve.

I'd be curious to know, were you happy with the MP6? Did you sell it because of dissatisfaction? Any insights you can provide as to your personal assessment of the overall playability and sound of the MP6 would be appreciated!

I'd be curious to know, were you happy with the MP6? Did you sell it because of dissatisfaction? Any insights you can provide as to your personal assessment of the overall playability and sound of the MP6 would be appreciated!

I had very mixed feelings about the MP6. I love the concept: compact (no unnecessary extension to the left of the board); intuitive interface; one or two very expressive and fun to play EPs, great action; APs with a basically pleasant tone.

The things I found frustrating were nearly all to do with the way the APs were implemented. I won't go into them again here, as I've written about them many times (probably much to KJ's dismay), but I became frustrated that a very good DP could have been a really great DP with just a little more input. There is a big demand for a truly topnotch DP that doesn't need a bunch of pallbearers to move it (witness the interest in Casio's new PX-5s), and Kawai has the know-how. Unlike Casio and Roland, Kawai and Yamaha seem to feel that any one-person-movable DP is not worthy of their top technology. Surely this is a big mistake on the part of their marketing departments.

_________________________"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

I'd be curious to know, were you happy with the MP6? Did you sell it because of dissatisfaction? Any insights you can provide as to your personal assessment of the overall playability and sound of the MP6 would be appreciated!

I had very mixed feelings about the MP6. I love the concept: compact (no unnecessary extension to the left of the board); intuitive interface; one or two very expressive and fun to play EPs, great action; APs with a basically pleasant tone.

The things I found frustrating were nearly all to do with the way the APs were implemented. I won't go into them again here, as I've written about them many times (probably much to KJ's dismay), but I became frustrated that a very good DP could have been a really great DP with just a little more input. There is a big demand for a truly topnotch DP that doesn't need a bunch of pallbearers to move it (witness the interest in Casio's new PX-5s), and Kawai has the know-how. Unlike Casio and Roland, Kawai and Yamaha seem to feel that any one-person-movable DP is not worthy of their top technology. Surely this is a big mistake on the part of their marketing departments.

voxpops...Sounds as though your need is for gigs. Just curious as to whether you considered the EP3 or the ES7? What choice did you make to replace the MP6?

By the way, I've tried your suggestion about dialing back the midrange e.q. to the sweetspot... and found it most helpful. Voxpops, when I came to the forums initially, I had just purchased my first (real) d.p. I knew absolutely nothing about adjustments, much less what words like "cutoff," "attack," "release," etc. meant. I didn't find the Kawai manual very helpful in terms of detailed information about each adjustment, or suggestions as to how to use said adjustments. What I know about these I've learned from experimenting.But I would be curious to know... is there a resource where all this terminology is explained and general suggestions made about how to adjust these parameters? Perhaps if there are other MP6 users who are going to use this thread as a resource, this information would be helpful to them also. Your input about the MP6 is greatly appreciated. Regards,H.K.

voxpops...Sounds as though your need is for gigs. Just curious as to whether you considered the EP3 or the ES7? What choice did you make to replace the MP6?

Yes, I gig quite a lot. I sold the MP6 in anticipation of some new boards being displayed at NAMM, and was a little surprised at how few came along.

The EP3, being older technology and without 88-key sampling or comparable EPs, would not be in the running for me, but I have thought about the ES7. I watched a video by jazzjazzful on youtube, and could see how much better the action/sound connection is compared to the MP6. The EPs also sound good, and the weight is fractionally less. Hmmm...

I am currently trying to see how well a Krome 88 fulfills my gigging needs. It's lightweight at 32lbs but a behemoth in physical size. I'm not overly comfortable with using a workstation for gigging and it lacks some dedicated piano features, but it sounds pretty good overall. We're doing some recording of original songs at the moment, and were laying down some guide tracks using the Krome's MkV Rhodes in mono, and I was surprised at how good it sounds. It makes me wonder whether, in the absence of an SV-2, it would be nice to try an SV-1 for gigging. I'm also intrigued by the new Casio PX-5s, but have usually found the recent Privias to be too "cold" and "uninvolving" (for want of a better word) for gigging; the PX-5s may change all that.

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But I would be curious to know... is there a resource where all this terminology is explained...

I think there must be books on synthesis available. Also, try downloading the manuals for analogue synthesizers; you might find useful explanations in there. Sound mixing guides are another resource that would be helpful.

_________________________"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

I have owned the Kawai MP6 stage piano for the past two years. I have read many reviews/evaluations, etc., here in the forums. What is missing, and would be most helpful for me as a user, is a thread which adresses the questions about specific settings, tweaks, insights, playing experience, speakers, accessories, etc. The list goes on and on.

As a first question I'd like to ask what tone settings are you using (Cutoff/Attack/Decay/Release) to get the optimal sound for your samples? Here (at least at first), I'm speaking of the piano samples. What say ye?H.K.

These are the basic piano samples. My understanding that one set of these samples was retained from the MP5, while others are new. Please see the post above by voxpops where he addresses 1) decay time; 2) EQ; 3) firmware update; and 4) velocity curve.

The question remains on the table as to how you adjust your MP6 for optimal sounds. Other specific suggestions and/or specific settings for any of the above individual samples are welcomed, and will likely provide MP6 users with some viable options for improving sound quality. Thanks in Advance...H.K.

RE: Adjustments for Best SoundMy experience with the piano settings for the MP6 has taught me that experimentation is the best way to learn what suits your ear. What follows is a short tutorial, in no particular order that hopefully will aid in getting the best piano sounds for your board:

1) The MP6 manual, while explaining the function of the various buttons, knobs, and sliders, lacks specific instructions on how to adjust for quality sound.

2) My first goal is to adjust for a basic, pleasing sound for each sample, and then fine-tune the various parameters for optimal sound.

3) There are a variety of adjustments for the MP6 piano samples, and a change in any one of these will make a noticeable difference in sound. The various adjustments are easily accessible, and easy to set.

4) After choosing a piano sound, I first adjust the EQ controls for low, midrange, and high. Forum member voxpops has suggested adjusting the midrange all the way to max and then dialing back to the midrange sound that to you sounds like the "sweet spot." Once that is done, the same can be done for the low and high controls. Take them to max, then dial them back to what your ear tells you is the "sweet spot."

5) Once you have the EQ set according to this method, you should have a reasonably pleasing sound with just this adjustment. Adjust the EQ for low, mid-range, and high. Leave the frequency setting at 1000 hertz to begin.

6) Next, go to the Tone Modify adjustments and adjust for: a) cutoff; b) attack; c)decay; and d) release. The cutoff adjustment will control the sound for flatness or brightness. The higher the value, the brighter the sound. The attack control is adjusted with negative values and will effect the amount timbre of both the mid-range, and upper octave notes. From what you described in your post, it sounds as though either the "cutoff," or the "attack" setting for you piano samples, needs to be attenuated or detenuated. Adjust these in 5 degree increments, because a small change makes a big difference. You may, for example have a +35 for attack, and a -35 for cuffoff.

Let your ear be your guide, and use these two adjustments to set the desired sound for bass, mid-range, and high timbre. The "decay" and "release" adjustments control the amount of the decay of the notes; and the length of time required before the sound dies away. For piano sounds, I have found that anything beyond, say, decay of 3 and release of 7-10 results in too much resonance. Use these four adjustments to fine tune your sound.

Let me say at this point that I will follow this thread with some examples of what I consider to be great sound adjustments for each of the several pianos, so that if you don't understand what the adjustments are doing to the sound... you can experiment with the different suggested settings.

7) Now you should have a pretty good piano sound for your sample. You also have the option to save your settings at anytime by pushing, "save," "sound," "confirm" at anytime during the process of making changes. The EQ settings will apply across the board to all sounds; the Tone Modify adjustments will adjust uniquely for each piano. If you wish to adjust the EQ differently for each piano sound, you can save your settings as a "setup," giving it a name, rather than a "sound" saving.

8) You can further refine the sound by choosing an Effect (EFX). There are over 20 different effects you can choose from, but the ones that will apply to piano are "enhancer," "chorus," and perhaps "auto-pan." Press and hold the EFX button and the effect in use will be displayed. Use the Value button [up or down] select an effect. By far, the "enhancer" effect will be the one you apply the most. The "enhancer" effect will make the sound brighter, clearer; and add depth to the mix in different amounts. The Effect button displays the settings for your chosen effect. Follow the same logic for setting these ad you did for cutoff and attack. EFX rate and EFX depth will make the sound brighter, more alive, and/or duller and more flat.

Each piano sample requires a different setting for the best sound. Generally speaking, the Concert 1 piano sounds allow for higher EFX rate and EFX depth settings to sound their best, while the Concert 2 piano sounds require lower EFX rate and EFX depth sounds. The EFX reverb time and reverb depth settings determine the amount of reverb and length of reverb. The higher the setting for these two controls, the longer the reverb effect will linger, and the more pronounced will be its effect. Higher settings result in deeper and longer reverb effects.

9) Use the Reverb button to turn on the reverb effect, and to choose the size of the room (from small room to stage). Hold down the button and a grid for choosing the size of the room will appear.

10) Press and hold the Effect button and you will see a display of the percent of reverb offset. Setting the value to 100% results in full reverb.

11) At this point you have made a variety of adjustments and these can add to the sound of any one sample by just engaging the button. To play a basically unaltered sound, disengage the EFX and the Reverb buttons. Engage the EFX button to add brightness, definition, and clarity to the sound; and engage the Reverb button to add reverb. A combination of all three buttons engaged together bolsters the sound; it's depth, brightness, fullness, and clarity immensely. Or, try any one of three buttons in combination for different sounds.

12) There is one other group of fine tuning adjustments. These are the editing parameters. They are accessed for each piano sample by engaging the "Menu button either up or down. Here you fine all the adjustments for things like:a) damper resonance; b) string resonance; c) key off effect; and d) voicing. Each of these are important settings because they will dramatic effect to your mix. The one that will likely be used most often is the "voicing" option. This options allows you to set the sound from normal to mellow to bright to dynamic for any individual piano. Once you've selected the parameter you want, use the Value button (up or down) to set the amount of desired effect. The same procedure applies for the other editing parameters. Setting the "Key Off" parameter to a high setting such as 7-10 will result in a definite key off noise that you will be able to hear in the higher registers. Same for the damper resonance. You can set the damper resonance to 6 or higher; hold down a c note silently, strike another C note on the board and release it, and you will hear the resonance of the struck key in your silent key. Reading the explanation of the various parameters in the owner's manual for this section is especially helpful [pp. 34-47)

Be sure to save your settings as you go, or you will lose them when changing samples, or turning your MP6 on and off! You can save them as a "sound" setting or a "setup" setting.

You should, at this point, realize you have a wealth of control possibilities for the MP6. My observation of the newer Kawai DP's leads me to believe much of this has been somewhat simplified by the "virtual tech" feature. Still, you have unlimited adjustment possibilities for this board, and you can dial in your sound.

In addition, the MP6 is a great controller. I have used it with Pianoteq, and its as simple as setting the local parameter to "off" and connecting via USB to your computer.

I know all this may be a bit overwhelming and perhaps confusing. Suffice it to say, I will allow time for analysis of this tutorial and then post some sample settings for the various pianos onboard the MP6. If you don't understand what the various controls do; you can - at the very least - just try the suggested settings. I believe you will find the results amazing! It took me several months of experimentation with the various controls, reading the manual, experimenting, etc. to learn how to adjust the sounds. By the way here is a sample of the Concert Piano Sample #1 from my Box account:Box Postings

Understand, I've only been playing for two years... but this may give you some indication as to the sound.

By the way, if you look at the "DPBSD" thread in the forums, you will find that the MP6 compares very favorably with the MP10. In the final result, no DP is going to sound like an acoustic; but with the multitude of adjustments onboard the MP6, you can come very close.

Please post feedback/questions. Examples of settings for the basic 12 piano samples of the MP6 will follow.

RE: Concert Grand Piano (1/1/A) Settings:______________________________________________________________________________The piano samples onboard the MP6 were created from the Kawai EX, 9ft. Concert Grand piano. Microphones are located in different positions to achieve a variety of tonal quality sounds.

The Concert Grand1 sample is the brighter of the two concert grands, though when set to "normal" voicing it does have depth and resonance. When played through headphones there is even a more marked contrast between the brightness of the CG1 and that of the CG2. The sound for the this sample when the voicing is set to "dynamic," is "bright," though not "brilliant." This is my "go to" sample, though two of the newest samples in the 3rd group of four ("Pop Piano1," and "Pop Piano 2") are brighter, livelier, and would certainly cut through any mix. This piano sample offers a balance between the mellow end of the spectrum and the brilliant end of the spectrum. Great for classical and traditional tunes, but less so for pop genres.______________________________________________________________________________ Concert Grand1 - "Normal Voicing"Concert Grand1 - "Dynamic" Voicing

*Save your settings once all these are complete. You can save at anytime during the setting; but be sure to do so when you've completed them. If you change to another preset (such as Studio Grand), or power off without saving - your work will be lost. Just remember that once saved, you'll only need to go into an individual parameter, tweak it, and save again.

**The "Save" procedure is: Store-sound-sure You can also save to a "setup" You can also save to "power on" which will call forth your specific settings each time you power on.

It should be clear that the problem (if you want to call it that) with the MP6 is that it has too many settings! Most boards will not allow you this specificity. There are very few sound parameters for the MP6 that can't be tweaked. Unfortunately, the manual does not explain how to "dial in" a sound as in the above illustration.

Once you get your basic sound set... you have the world of sound enhancements at your fingertips. Use the EFX and Reverb buttons in combination (on or off) for a different sound. If you turn them off and play, the sound will be pleasing, but not enhanced. Applying the EFX button will result in the sound being greatly enhanced. Adding the Reverb button will further enhance your sound.

One very important remaining adjustment is the Voicing adjustment (Menu/Value settings to get to it). Here you can choose "normal," "mellow 1," "mellow 2," "dynamic," "bright 1," or "bright 2." Play with these leaving all other settings as is to see which you like best. "Normal," will give you the purest, cleanest sound effect; "Dynamic" will enhance both lows and highs.

At this point, it's just a matter of fine-tuning any one of the above parameters. I'm constantly fine-tuning, and the above suggestions for Concert Grand 1 are my current choices.

Let me know how these work for you, and what specific questions you may have. Other piano settings for the remainder of the samples will follow the above pattern and will be posted later.

Regards,H.K.

RE: Concert Grand Piano2 (1/2/A) Settings:______________________________________________________________________________In general, the Concert Grand2 patch is deeper, darker, louder, and more "woodsy" sounding than its brighter Concert Grand1 counterpart. You'll notice immediately a major difference in volume with the same settings used for the CG1 sample. The sound of the CG2 offers a distinct contrast to the CG1, and has beautiful depth and vibrance. Now that we have the basics in place, we can dispense for lenghty explanations for which buttons to push; and go right to the sound profile itself:______________________________________________________________________________Concert Grand2 - "Normal" VoicingConcert Grand2 - "Dynamic" Voicing

*Save your settings once all these are complete. You can save at anytime during the setting; but be sure to do so when you've completed them. If you change to another preset (such as Studio Grand), or power off without saving - your work will be lost. Just remember that once saved, you'll only need to go into an individual parameter, tweak it, and save again.

Note about using the basic settings...The basic settings that will be used for all samples are the following:Effect, EQ, and Tone Modify Buttons Menu Button Options: 1) Voicing: a) normal; b) mellow 1; c) mellow 2; d) mellow 2; e)dynamic; f) bright1; and g) bright 2 2) String Resonance (1-10) 3) Damper Resonance (1-10) 4) Key Off (1-10) 5) Dynamics (Best to set to 10 to get the full range of the velocity curve from a light to a heavy touch). Later, I'll explain how to allow the MP6 to touch your own, personal touch profile.

Once, you done your original work and saved it... you'll only be tweaking the above options for continually adjusting your sound just the way you prefer it for any specific piece you are playing. The voicing options are the first place to start. Each setting produces a completely different nuance of sound. You can make this darker, richer piano sample brighter by choosing, "Bright1," "Bright2," or "Dynamic." On the other hand, you can make the Concert Grand1 sample darker by choosing, "Mellow1," or "Mellow2." Have fun experimenting, and questions are welcomed![/i]

Nice post, Hiskidd. I don't own an MP6 but the ES7, instead. Some of the adjustments are common (ES7 is way easier to tweak)so this is useful for me too. Maybe in two years or so I'll write down one of these in the ES7 thread

Nice post, Hiskidd. I don't own an MP6 but the ES7, instead. Some of the adjustments are common (ES7 is way easier to tweak)so this is useful for me too. Maybe in two years or so I'll write down one of these in the ES7 thread

mabraman...Thanks for your comment about my thread; I hope it was helpful! Congratulations on a great choice in the ES7! I'd buy that board in a minute for gigging purposes if I could afford it! I love the features, the sound, the action, and especially the choice of white! I'd be interested to know your personal opinion of your ES7. Has it lived up to your expectations? I'll be making a decision about whether to purchase the VPC or a lighter gigging board such as the ES7. Regards,H.K.

My expectations are not something to rely on, believe me. It's my first DP and I'm a begginer, so I wasn't expecting anything, really. I was a bit disappointed or disconcerted by the sound, like the guy in the other MP6 thread. But the more I play and learn, the better it sounds to my ears.These forums are a great help.By the way, you can take a look at the ES7 user thread and see what we think about it.

My expectations are not something to rely on, believe me. It's my first DP and I'm a begginer, so I wasn't expecting anything, really. I was a bit disappointed or disconcerted by the sound, like the guy in the other MP6 thread. But the more I play and learn, the better it sounds to my ears.These forums are a great help.By the way, you can take a look at the ES7 user thread and see what we think about it.

Regards.

mabraman... I did check out the ES7 user's thread, and learned a lot. Many good posts and helpful comments from others. I see you began the thread in December, and that you are a beginner! I went to Soundcloud and gave a listen, and I must say; you play quite well for a beginner! After two years of playing daily, I still consider myself a beginner... Lol!

From what I read, you've also learned a lot about your board from experimenting with the settings yourself. I have found that there's no substitute for experimenting with the various settings. I was surprised to read about the difference in sound (such as the high end ringing) that different headsets seem to make! I take out my too high sounds by adjusting the "Effects" button on the MP6 (Especially the EFX "depth"). Playing with these four settings, allows me to dial in the perfect midrange and highend sounds. To some extent, I do the same thing with the "Tone Modify Settings." Detenuating the "attack," and attenuating the "cutoff," will reduce the high end sounds. Use these adjustments in small increments, because they make a big difference.

Over time, I've come to appreciate that Kawai boards allow me the freedom to experiment, and that I'm not stuck with a "stock" sound. I'll follow the ES7 thread with interest! Thanks for sharing!Regards,H.K.

HisKidd, did you say that you audio demos somewhere of your tweaks to the piano sounds?

chilcolm...I do plan to post these for the various pianos. Remembering not to expect to much, because I've only been playing for 23 months, you can hear an example of the Concert Grand sample here:Auld Lang SyneOther samples will follow for each piano. In the mix of 12 piano samples, there is great variety - something for everyone!Regards!H.K.

Forum Members:Look at the top of each individual piano sample settings and you will find hyperlinks to hear a short selection for "normal," and "dynamic" voicing. In all cases, for comparison, we will be using "Auld Lang Syne" as our tune.

The recordings were done through the internal recording mechanism of the MP6 and processed as mp.3 files. Another beauty of this keyboard, you can record directly to a USB thumb drive as either mp.3 or wav. files. No additional processing was done to the recordings.

As we proceed with each new sample, I will offer "normal" and "dynamic" sound samples. I promise you that one of the twelve MP6 piano samples will be one you can use.Comments and questions welcome!Play On!H.K.

Thanks for your kind comments, Hiskidd.These two DPs are somewhat different. As far as I've read here in the forums, MP6 has better EP and organs (and more sounds), and gives larger possibilities of edition/tweaking. APs are supposedly better in ES7, though the difference may be really slight. Digital to analogic conversors are perhaps better in ES7, too, and the keybed is a little better.But regarding what we talk about in this thread: they both seem to sound too bright "out of the box" for some ears, which is kind of Kawai's signature. What I do is to add some bass/midle bass with EQ and then go for some mellow voicing. And as you pointed below, it is necessary to increase a little reverb's depht and time in order to get a fatter sound and a longer decay. Same with string resonance.By the way, some setups are good to play through headphones but not trough speakers, and what is too bright through speakers doesn't sound that bright when you record it. So you must have some combinations stored and ready to be used in these particullar situations.Is there any kind og normalization going on in the recorder?

Thanks for your kind comments, Hiskidd.These two DPs are somewhat different. As far as I've read here in the forums, MP6 has better EP and organs (and more sounds), and gives larger possibilities of edition/tweaking. APs are supposedly better in ES7, though the difference may be really slight. Digital to analogic conversors are perhaps better in ES7, too, and the keybed is a little better.But regarding what we talk about in this thread: they both seem to sound too bright "out of the box" for some ears, which is kind of Kawai's signature. What I do is to add some bass/midle bass with EQ and then go for some mellow voicing. And as you pointed below, it is necessary to increase a little reverb's depht and time in order to get a fatter sound and a longer decay. Same with string resonance.

By the way, some setups are good to play through headphones but not trough speakers, and what is too bright through speakers doesn't sound that bright when you record it. So you must have some combinations stored and ready to be used in these particullar situations.Is there any kind og normalization going on in the recorder?

mabraman...You make some excellent points in your post. It is true that the EP sounds in the MP6 are really good, as are the wurlies. The "Legend EP" is a killer. I find myself slightly tweaking the piano sounds daily... but only slightly - with EQ as you described; and the settings for "voicings," and "reverb."

You are absolutely spot on about sound through speakers. Getting just the right speakers that are good for both lows and highs is the challenge. The next thing I want to do after completing the piano sample selections is to raise the question about "best" speakers, audioface, and recording software specifically for use with the MP6. Normally, I will use Audacity with plugins for MAC to get a much better, and more balanced sound. However, for these samples, I wanted to keep the sound as basic as possible, so they were uploaded as mp.3 files from my MAC to Box. I did not edit for enhancements to the sound; though that is generally what I do. I wanted these sounds to be as undoctored as possible, using only the MP6's onboard recorder.

Were you able to recognize the difference in the two samples between "normal," and "dynamic" voicing? Of course, I could have just as easily adjusted the tone with a choice of "mellow1," "mellow2," or "bright1," or "bright2." As you say, there are so many adjustments for the MP6. I read the MP10 manual tonight and discovered that it has the "Virtual Tech," controls built in. These allow for additional parameters including overall "brightness," "reverb delay," and "stereo width." You have this feature in your board - correct?

Normally, I will use Audacity with plugins for MAC to get a much better, and more balanced sound. However, for these samples, I wanted to keep the sound as basic as possible, so they were uploaded as mp.3 files from my MAC to Box. I did not edit for enhancements to the sound; though that is generally what I do. I wanted these sounds to be as undoctored as possible, using only the MP6's onboard recorder.

Were you able to recognize the difference in the two samples between "normal," and "dynamic" voicing? Of course, I could have just as easily adjusted the tone with a choice of "mellow1," "mellow2," or "bright1," or "bright2." As you say, there are so many adjustments for the MP6. I read the MP10 manual tonight and discovered that it has the "Virtual Tech," controls built in. These allow for additional parameters including overall "brightness," "reverb delay," and "stereo width." You have this feature in your board - correct?

Thanks for the feedback. Much appreciated!H.K.

Yep, sounds brighter when "dynamic" voicing is on. I don't feel the same changes happening on the ES7: in fact I use dynamic voicing to make the sound smoother, as the same velocity produces a lower sound. It is supposed to cause " a dramatical change in the dynamics and blah, blah..." but I honestly can't hear it at my level of play. Perhaps the damper has a lot to do with it, time will tell. What I see now is that I have to hit the keys harder to make it sing. It helps to protect you from harshness or unwanted loudness.About Virtual Technician: again, not the same features for the MP10/ES7. Mine is easier to use, I mean more simple. You can modify touch, voicing, string/damper resonances and hammer delay, plus the mechanical noises (damper, keys).That's all.By the way, some of the combinations between sound/voicing/reverb are not very useful, specially when you layer two pianos. I guess there must be some logical explanation for this, that has to do with how each sound has been sampled.But it's obvious that some tweakings collide with each other.

About the recorder: what I was asking you is, do you think there is some default normalization when recording via usb? I mean in the piano. I use Audacity too, just to amplify the volume, wich is too low using default settings.

Well I didn't use your suggested presets. It made the sound much too bright for my liking and the EFX settings made it sound too artificial.

Your suggestions how to 'tune in' a sound was very valuable though. esspecially which setting does what and where to start.

My EQ settings are generally a bit lower and I used less decay and attack, this coupled with the reverb and sightly tuned efx made the sound much better also darker than in your preset

I'm still not entirely content with the c and c' registers they are still too bright and too harsh for my taste and there's still a bit of 'ringing'.

But I'll probably get there with a bit more tuning.

My biggest annoyance is still that the sound stops very suddenly when you depress the key. This is very irritating since it's most unlike the real pianos I played.

Although the damper on a piano essentially does the same, the cut off is still much 'harder' on the MP6.

Fiddling with the decay, attack, sustain and release didn't improve it in the way I wanted because when I had the sound at a point where the cut off was 'right' it also changed the character in a way I didn't.

I'm open to suggestions.

I also begin to realize why people are so obsessed with the ultimate sound and presets because I saw how addictive twiddling with the presets is. (I spent more than two hours just testing different setups)

Usually I had one register 'right' but pretty much ruined another one with the changes until I got a hang which settings influenced the sound at which frequencies

The biggest change from your proposed presets was that I actually tuned down the EFX settings because in my mind they already did too much and negatively impacted the sound at that point.

I like a 'darker' Piano sound though (big fan of the Bösendorfer Grands) so this was somewhat expected.

If someone has the time I#d like a little bit more explanation about the parametric eq.

[quote=HisKidd] About the recorder: what I was asking you is, do you think there is some default normalization when recording via usb? I mean in the piano. I use Audacity too, just to amplify the volume, wich is too low using default settings.

mabramn...I am not aware of any normalization, compressing, etc. done by the onboard recorder on the MP6. Just for fun, I took the Grand Piano1 Normal Voicing sample and ran it through Audacity, editing for normalization and 31 band EQ. The difference is drastic, and sounds much better to my ears. When I recorded the original, I noticed that the reproduction did not sound to me like what I was hearing it the headset; in fact, it sounded "darker." Here's what it sounds like after "Audacity." Pretty good sound (not the playing), don't you think? Link:Orginal GP1-Normal Voice- edited with Audacity

I read with interest last night, a thread by KataiYubi in which he stated that all DP's are "junk," and suggested we are years away from a quality reproduction of acoustic sounds. Actually, the above sample sounds pretty good to me. Given the fact that I have eleven more piano options that I can tweak and record, I think I like the variety the DP gives me. Yes, an acoustic is an acoustic, but for gigging purposes, I love having a complete sound stage in my toolbox. Thanks for your comments and for participating. Have you posted anything where I can hear you playing? I'd love to give a listen!Cheers!H.K.

Well I didn't use your suggested presets. It made the sound much too bright for my liking and the EFX settings made it sound too artificial.

Your suggestions how to 'tune in' a sound was very valuable though. esspecially which setting does what and where to start.

My EQ settings are generally a bit lower and I used less decay and attack, this coupled with the reverb and sightly tuned efx made the sound much better also darker than in your preset

I'm still not entirely content with the c and c' registers they are still too bright and too harsh for my taste and there's still a bit of 'ringing'.

But I'll probably get there with a bit more tuning.

My biggest annoyance is still that the sound stops very suddenly when you depress the key. This is very irritating since it's most unlike the real pianos I played.

Although the damper on a piano essentially does the same, the cut off is still much 'harder' on the MP6.

Fiddling with the decay, attack, sustain and release didn't improve it in the way I wanted because when I had the sound at a point where the cut off was 'right' it also changed the character in a way I didn't.

I'm open to suggestions.

I also begin to realize why people are so obsessed with the ultimate sound and presets because I saw how addictive twiddling with the presets is. (I spent more than two hours just testing different setups)

Usually I had one register 'right' but pretty much ruined another one with the changes until I got a hang which settings influenced the sound at which frequencies

The biggest change from your proposed presets was that I actually tuned down the EFX settings because in my mind they already did too much and negatively impacted the sound at that point.

I like a 'darker' Piano sound though (big fan of the Bösendorfer Grands) so this was somewhat expected.

If someone has the time I#d like a little bit more explanation about the parametric eq.

Especially what the frequency setting is for

Nigeth...Thanks so much for your quality feedback. I'm hoping those two hours you spent tweaking and your new understanding of the effects caused by specific adjustments will get you to that point where you love your MP6 because of the variety of options for sound adjustment it gives you. The problem with the MP6 is that there are too many adjustments!

I'm hoping to do two things in this reply. Let's see if we can't answer some of your questions; and at the same time work toward eliminating the problem with the harsh cutoff of the MP6 your experiencing. I like that you've fiddled with the fine tuning. Save a basic setting for each piano. Then fine tune as much as you want, saving the new adjustments. You'll find that your ear will like one thing one day, and another the next. While DP sounds will never replace the acoustic piano; they do provide a variety of options you can't get with an acoustic. I like having multiple choices for my piano sounds! (And we haven't even discussed VST's - that will come later!)

When I analyze what you like to hear, I'm seeing that your dissatisfaction with your sound is because it sounds "too bright," "too harsh," and has "too much ringing." Stay with me Nigeth, because I believe that when we give you basic settings for all 12 pianos you're going to find one that you like, and that sounds more like the B. Grand! I'm encouraging you to take my basic settings, and tweak them. You're going to work mostly with the "Effect," the "EQ," and the "Tone Modify" buttons. What makes the MP6 a joy to work with is that after you've managed to save a basic profile for each piano, you just push these three buttons, make your fine tuning adjustments, and dial in the sound that is perfect for you. One caveat. Once we have the "cutoff," and "attack" set to our liking, we generally leave it alone.

The "Voicing" optons (from the Menu) are going to help you do the quickest and simpliest adjustment "on the fly." Choosing from the Menu the voicing parameter and experimenting with "normal," "mellow1," "mellow2," "dynamic," "bright1," and "bright2" is your immediate, and first, option for effecting your basic settings. In fact, if; as in your case, I wanted a "darker sound," I would immediately try the "mellow1" and "mellow2" voicing options. My second adjustment option would be the "Effect" button/settings. Turning the "EFR" and "EFD" down will make your sound darker, just as turning these two options up will make your sound brighter. My third option would be the "Tone Modify" button, where I would adjust the "cutoff" and "attack." The effect of turning the "cutoff up" (in increments of no more than 5) or the "attack" down, will enhance the sustain, and turning the "cuttoff" down and the "attack" up will truncate the sustain. Those are three layers of adjustment which you access by pushing one button and turning one knob, that should result in the "darker" sound you're looking for.

Let's talk about the parametric midrange frequency (EQ button). Continously play a note using the sustain pedal, and turn the knob for higher frequencies. What you will find is that the higher frequencies make the sound brighter and add clarity, while the lower frequencies make the sound flatter, duller, and less brilliant. I suggested leaving this parameter at 1000, because that seems to be a happy medium. If the options 1, 2, and 3 fail to produce the darker sound you want, then experiment with turning the parametric adjustment for frequency down. You'll note that the lower you go, the duller and darker the sound becomes.

Now, let's see if we can address this "hard cutoff" problem for you. If I were sitting at your board, I would make sure that I had the "cutoff" and "attack" adjustments just the way I want them. Go into "Tone Modify" and adjust the "CUT" upward in increments of 5; and at the same time adjust the ATK down in increments of five. I've found it works best to keep them parallel, such as +10/-10; +20/-20; +25/-25, etc. This evens out the sound and gives a smooth resonating effect. Occasionally, I may have a slight difference between these two parameters, but they seem to work best when set as exact opposites.If you strike and immediately release a key while adjusting these two, you will immediately find that "cutoff/release" point you're listening for. The "DCY" and "RLS" adjustments will further fine tune the "cutoff/release" for you. As I mentioned earlier, setting these for a piano sound to anything more than say 3 or 4 for the "DKY" will result in an artificial decay sound when you strike the key. Whatever I choose for "DKY," I then add about 3 to 5 increments for the RLS. So you end up with combinations for these two parameters such as 1/3; 2/5; 3/7; 4/8, etc. You will definitely hear a difference in the length of your sustain by fine-tuning this adjustment. I use the lower combinations if I want a sound that is more "stacatto," and the higher combinations if I want a sound that is more "sustained." Anything beyond, say, a setting of "4" for the "DKY" parameter seems to distort the sound.

This set of "Tone Modify" adjusments is where I suspect the problem with your harsh cutoff lies. Read this important section again, and then go experiment. By using "cutoff," "attack," "decay," and "release" as I've described above. Hopefully, you'll be able to obtain the "cufoff/attack" adjustment that is perfect for your ears.

Let's add one more fine tune for the length of your sustain. Using the "Effects" button and setting the "RVD" parameter to a setting of 80 or higher will result in lengthy sustains when you depress the "Reverb" button. Remember that pushing and holding the "Reverb" button will access the room size choices. You'll find that if you choose, say for instance, "Hall2," and then turn the "RVD" up to 127, you'll have way too much sustain. Dialing in this one adjustment (RVD) in combination with your room size choices, will result in the perfect echo effect for you. Also remember that you can choose to play: 1) with none of the aforementioned buttons depressed (on); 2) just adding the "Effects" settings to the Mix; 3) addings both the "Effects" and "Reverb" to the mix; 4) using the "Reverb" without the effects. Experimentation is the best teacher.

Before we're done with our samples, I'm going to experiment with the Ivory II, Grand B; and see if I can dial in that specific sound for you. Meanwhile, just hang with me, while we work our way through the basic sample settings, and you fine tune them. I'm letting you know there are some great sounds (inside the MP6) that are forthcoming; and yes, several are much darker. It's ok not to like my basic settings for any one sample, the point is that you will have saved a starting point for your own adjustments!

Finally, I want to say a word about "recording." What you heard was the internal recorder onboard the MP6 with no edits for sound improvement. Normally, I would take my .mp3 recorded to my USB stick, and then run it through "Audacity," (free software) for editing. I usually will normalize the sound and the use the 31 band graphic EQ to really fine-tune my sound just the way I want it. If you plan to burn your recordings to CD; or if you want to post them to internet sites (Such as Box, Soundcloud, Piano World, YouTube,etc.) then by all means you should do this. The difference in sound is drastic.

Just for fun, Here's the "Normal" voicing for Concert Grrand1, and Concert Grand2 edited with Audacity for normalization and 31 band EQ. Audacity will allow you to export your changes at up to 320bps. Both of these are likely going to be too bright for your taste, but that's o.k. It's the quality of the sound (not the playing) I want you to listen for. I promise you that once we experiment with the other piano sounds, you're going to discover one that approximates the Grand B sound you're looking for. Just note the difference in sound quality as a result of the Audacity edits:

These two recordings are as close to what I am actually hearing through my Sennheisser 205's as I'm playing as I can get. They are pretty much one and the same. Now, again; this is probably too bright for you, but note the nuances in clarity and definition. I especially like the "hollow" timbre of the Concert Grand2, it's a really nice sound. My understanding is that the Concert Grand2 is a carry over from the MP5 to the MP6's sample set. The "hollow," "woodsy" resonance is a beautiful to my ears.

We've come a long way. Are you having fun yet? I suspect that two more hours of fine tuning with the above information will make you close to an expert. I think you'll definitely see an improvement in sound. I promise that Grand B approximation (using only the MP6 and Audacity) before we're done.

Down the road we'll discuss much more in this User's thread. Everything discussed will be specific to the MP6. Nigeth, I think it's a fantastic board, allowing me to fine tune pretty much anything about the sound I want. Yes, there is a learning curve, but the adjustments are simple and intuitive. Let me encourage you, don't sell that board just yet. Wait till you hear the sounds from samples 3 through 12 that are forthcoming!

Your comments and questions are always welcome.

Play On!H.K. P.S. Nigeth, I had a thought this afternoon about a "quick fix," that certainly will result in a darker tone. Take the Concert Grand1 or 2 basic settings, then simply turn off the EFX buttton and the REVERB buttons. That will certainly produce a darker tone. You could also try playing this sample with just the "Reverb" engaged and no EFX. Keep me posted on how your adjustments are working for you!

Something that's worth remembering is that with a sample-based piano, there is a very small window for processing the sound before you completely mangle it. Likewise, if you don't like the character of those raw samples, you're going to be out of luck, because you cannot alter that character - only disguise it a little around the edges.

Similarly with effects - adding extra reverb will mask certain imperfections or characteristics, but often at the expense of making it sound like you're playing in a bathtub, or are stuck in some '70s song book (unless you want to be, of course ).

While the MP6 has a huge amount of control available, tiny increments are called for - otherwise you end up with something that is, at its core, the same sound, but that no longer sounds like its coming out of anything resembling a piano.

A note on EQ: this is dependent on what you're playing it through. The point of having EQ control is as much to tune the sound to your particular speakers/room characteristics as it is to shape the core sound to your liking. Also, the mid frequency response in a parametric system is to be able to find a particular frequency that needs either boosting or subduing, so that, for example, room resonance problems or sound absorption issues can be dealt with.

_________________________"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

Something that's worth remembering is that with a sample-based piano, there is a very small window for processing the sound before you completely mangle it. Likewise, if you don't like the character of those raw samples, you're going to be out of luck, because you cannot alter that character - only disguise it a little around the edges.

Similarly with effects - adding extra reverb will mask certain imperfections or characteristics, but often at the expense of making it sound like you're playing in a bathtub, or are stuck in some '70s song book (unless you want to be, of course ).

While the MP6 has a huge amount of control available, tiny increments are called for - otherwise you end up with something that is, at its core, the same sound, but that no longer sounds like its coming out of anything resembling a piano.

A note on EQ: this is dependent on what you're playing it through. The point of having EQ control is as much to tune the sound to your particular speakers/room characteristics as it is to shape the core sound to your liking. Also, the mid frequency response in a parametric system is to be able to find a particular frequency that needs either boosting or subduing, so that, for example, room resonance problems or sound absorption issues can be dealt with.

Excellent insights, voxpops... and thank you for contributing. This is what I had hoped for... that other forum MP6 users like yourself, would bring insights to this forum from which all MP6 users will benefit. I'm looking forward to your insights into future posts as we continue on this journey...

MP6 Users..Just this quick update. I'll be posting the remaining suggested settings for the balance of the MP6 piano samples over the next several days; and I'll use a shorter format to just give you the basics. I'll also include a few summary comments about adjustments, once you have a basic setting for each piano sample. Remember, with this board and it's many options, experimenting is the route to satisfaction.Sometime during the coming week (Feb 2-9), we'll broach another MP6 subject.Comments, suggestions, questions are always invited and welcomed!Play On!H.K.