This has been a breaking story all morning, but the recent updates indicate that it's now one of the largest school shootings in history. From CNN:

(CNN) -- The Virginia Tech police chief said at least 20 people were killed in twin shootings on the Blacksburg campus Monday morning.

"Some victims were shot in a classroom," Chief Wendell Flinchum said, adding that the gunman was dead.

"Today the university was struck with a tragedy that we consider of monumental proportions," said university President Charles Steger. "The university is shocked and indeed horrified."

The attacks mark the worst school shooting incident since 1999 when Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris killed 12 students and a teacher before killing themselves at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado.

A hospital spokeswoman told The Associated Press that 17 Virginia Tech students were being treated for gunshot wounds and other injuries.

The university campus is in lockdown. More details to come...

Update (Lorie):Bob Owens speculates about the type weapon likely used based on the information that has been reported. This is one of those stories I suspect will yield some inaccurate early reports until officials can get a complete picture of what happened. What is absolutely clear is that this is every parent's worst nightmare and those affected by the shooting will need much prayer and support. Update II: (Kim): Reuters is now saying that at least 22 are dead:

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - At least 22 people, including the suspected gunman, were killed and many others were wounded at Virginia Tech university on Monday in the deadliest campus shooting incident in U.S. history.

The rampage took place in two separate areas of the huge campus about two hours apart during the morning. Police said they believed a single gunman was responsible.

Virginia Tech campus police chief Wendell Finchum said the suspected gunman was dead and that police were trying to determine whether he killed himself or was shot by officers.

"At this time we believe it's only one gunman," said Finchum.

The death toll was worse than a massacre at the University of Texas in Austin on August 1, 1966, when trained marksman Charles Whitman killed 15 people, including his mother and wife the night before, and wounded 31 others.

The first shooting on Virginia Tech, a state university known for its demanding science and engineering curriculum, was reported to campus police at about 7:15 a.m. (1115 GMT) in West Ambler Johnston Hall, a dormitory housing some 900 students. It was followed by more shooting at another campus building, Norris Hall, Steger said.

Update III (Paul): ABC is Reporting 29 confirmed dead and many more wounded. They are also reporting that there where 2 bomb threats last week against engineering buildings on campus. -- NBC is reporting that the shooter had 2 (9mm) handguns.

Update IV (Kevin): Anecdotal reports are that the incident was sparked by a domestic disturbance in a dorm room this morning. The shooter found his girlfriend in be with an RA and it escalated from there...

From the FARK discussion thread, the guy in the picture above, who many thought to be a suspect, appears to be a student photographer with the school newspaper. Early reports said the shooter was Asian so apparently the officer stopped him. As far as we know there is no second shooter.

In hindsight, the recently completed assassin game Hokie War looks pretty bad - especially the FAQ, kill stories, and blog. Expect the mainstream media to freak out when they find that, but remember we noted it first. Unless there's some direct connection between the shooter and/or the victims and that game, it's just an unfortunate coincidence...

Update V (Kim):Fox News reports that at least 32 people are dead. This is horrifying.

Update VI (Paul) Cellphone video from a student:

Local hospital administrator says (per live interview) 17 wounded and they don't expect any more.

CNN has 22 dead (per local police) and Fox has 32 (as per Feds) as someone who lived thru Katrina, I'd remind you to be highly skeptical of the media during breaking news. They basically make it up as they go along.

Update IV (Kim): According to ABC News, the gunman has not yet been identified because he didn't have any identification on him and he shot himself in the head, blowing off half of his face. The police will have to check his fingerprints and see if that has a match to anything.

Also, according to Fox News, students are really ticked off at college officials, understandably so, for not locking down campus after the first shooting. Apparently, the police labeled it a domestic dispute and, therefore, thought it was isolated. Needless to say, VTech officials were way, way off. However, domestic dispute or not, two people were murdered this morning and that college should have been shut down immediately. Instead, again according to Fox, students received emails about the first shooting after the second one had already taken place.

Update X (Kim): Officials are holding a press conference right now. The Sheriff speaking said that they have preliminarily identified the shooter but they won't release his name until they are absolutely certain.

Update XI (Kim): Curt at Flopping Aces has a different opinion on locking down the campus after the first opinion:

All of this talk about locking down the campus is missing the point in my opinion. We're not talking about a high school campus people. We're talking about a HUGE school with dormitories spread out in a huge area. Does anyone have any idea of the logistics of doing that? For ONE crime scene that everyone and their brother believed to be a isolated incident?

Come on, get a grip. A campus that size is almost as big as a good sized town! Are people now going to expect the police to lock down the whole town due to one shooting incident?

Be sure to check out all of Curt's post. He has links to posts by responders who were on the scene.

Several things about the reports of this are troubling:
If they knew there was only one shooter, why would they not say that the shootings at the dorm and the classroom were related?
If the shootings occurred between 7 and 8 this morning, why were there no reports of it in the news until 4 to 5 hours later?
And finally, MSNBC had a commentator who said that semi-automatic weapons were illegal in Virginia, and yet possessing all the components necessary to convert a firearm to semi-automatic *are* legal. This country needs gun laws that make sense...

They might. Conversion kits are readily available at gun shows. It's interesting that there are "drug paraphernalia" laws that prevent sale of stuff like bongs and yet these conversions are wide open.
And I doubt this was jihad. This guy was probably just deranged to begin with or depressed about something in his life and decided to take it out on everybody.

1st- why are you getting "news" from MSNBC? That piece of crap station is worthless.
2nd- why are you concerned whether the breathless reporters are getting their first reports exactly right? Remember Katrina - after the the Hurricane hit landfall, all the reporters reported that ALL IS WELL! And who care is a few hours has passed since the shooting. Don't you think it takes time to get on scene and collect some information (difficult when everything is in lockdown) before they report.
3rd your comments about gun laws that "make sense" assumes that murderers are following the gun laws which of course has never been the case. Gun laws have absolutly no impact on these sort of things.

Something very wrong, when people are killed in a horrible thing like this, and for almost an hour no-one includes prayers for the families of the victims, but instead a tired old political feud is rekindled.

My prayers go up for the families of all the victims, and for the first responders who had to deal with the scene. May the Lord be kind and swift to send solace and hear their cries.

"yet possessing all the components necessary to convert a firearm to semi-automatic *are* legal_BLACKCAT77"

An automatic seer is just a single piece of metal drilled to intercept the trigger action and keep it in a middle position past "fire".
Instead of the trigger action finishing on "squeeze", it must be released to return forward.
It's just a toggle that anyone with a file and a drill press could make.

Is that Terry Moron or Moran? What's wrong with you? It doesn't matter if these students were rich, privileged and white. They are all someone's child, brother, sister, etc., Their loss is a monumental tragedy that will affect their families for all time.
Gun laws wouldn't have saved these students. It is the outlaws who do not adhere to the standards of the law that cause the problems. And, outlaws will always find a way to have their illegal guns.
My heart goes out to and my prayers are with these student's families and everyone affiliated with Virginia Tech.

A bill that would have given college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus died with nary a shot being fired in the General Assembly.

House Bill 1572 didn't get through the House Committee on Militia, Police and Public Safety. It died Monday in the subcommittee stage, the first of several hurdles bills must overcome before becoming laws.

...

Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

For those who choose to respect the law, Virginia Tech is a "gun-free" zone. House Bill 1572 was an effort to change that, but it unfortunately failed. Had the bill passed, todays events may have met with different results. Now we'll never know.

The MSNBC interview with one of the victims (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=67f_1176750363)...

Interesting that the guy described him as an asian male in his 20's in a maroon hat and black leather jacket. the graphic after that says "Suspect in his 20's in a maroon hat and black leather jacket." why do they drop the rest of the description?

If the students were allowed to carry guns, they could fire back instead of being slaughtered.

What utter bullshit. Some college kid with a gun and very little experience trying to be a hero amidst all the confusion and running and shouting and whatnot is going to save the day? Please.

Some dumbass college kids waving a gun trying to kill the badguy would
1- get shot himself by the gunman
2- shoot someone else by mistake, adrenaline overflowing and poor split second judgement calls are made or
3- get shot by the cops or a sniper in the distance mistaken for being the gunman

As awful as a situation like this is, adding to the mix some 19 year old kid who watched too many episodes of '24' who thinks he is a marksman ain't gonna help one bit

No, today's events would have been exactly the same if that gun law passed. The element of surprise and the confusion generated by the gunman would have caused the same reaction.

Whose to say there aren't already some kids at VT packing? Maybe they were scared shitless too and ran like hell. If you heard all this chaos going on early in the morning as you woke up in the dorms, would acting like dirty harry be your first instinct, or would running like hell be your first instinct?

I'm sure most people here think they are real tough and mighty, and of course they'd say, I'd shoot the badguy like Jack Bauer, hooray!!

But in reality, these situations happen very fast and there is little time to prepare for something like this, unless you have police/military training.

Plus, the cops would tell you to get the hell out of their way if they saw some junior rambo trying to play hero. They hate that shit.

Once again, I would remind the room that real people have died. In some cases, their own families have not yet been told.

The bickering about politics is pretty damned stone-hearted just about now.

Gianni, a.p.p., hermie, BarneyRubble, W.J.G., Vagabond, SAHMmy, VagaBond, Duncan, jp2, blackcat77, BillyBob, scotty, yo, I am caling you all out right here. Grow up and deal with the humanity of this event.

Innocent people died today. That is what this is about, and where your head and heart should be.

It occurs to me that gun control arguments
are very much like the arguments for
the French Maginot line in WWI. The problem
is that once the line is breached, then there
is no defense. Right-to-carry arguments are
more in line with a defense-in-depth approach.

..my wife and I first met Emily..her twin Brother and family..when she was 10...at a birthday party for the 10th birthday for the son of close friends who lived in the mountains near Bailey..

This is not about gun laws...this is not about..what should have been done...this is not about how it plays in the media or blog sites...

this is about tragic loss...can we deal on that simple
level...just for a little while..
Those killed today while in school..were just like Emily..or all the others murdered in school...
Can't we just respect

You need to go shooting. I can tell your experience is purely conceptual. The mind will place all kinds of caveats and what-ifs, like some weird helpless dream.
Then, in the light of day, you hammer nails with bullets. Or certainly a foot-wide target, center mass.
Rest your shooting hand in the palm of your free hand and aim. A little girl can do it.
I have a S&W 38 Special. So loud you don't have to hit'em to watch 'em fly.

I am a Hokie and have been tearing up all day. This is not just the worst school shooting, but probably one of the worst mass shootings of all time. I would cross out school in your first line of this story.

I am a recent alum, and can't imagine the pain parents and current students are feeling right now.

Average Wizbang Poster and VagaBond, I suspect that this might have turned out differently had that new bill passed. In order to receive a license for concealed-carry, you have to display a certain amount of proficiency with the weapon you are licensing. That means that you gotta be able to handle the gun, and are therefore less likely to shoot someone who isn't the bad guy. Remember, "gun control is hitting your target"...

Sorry, VagaBond, I misunderstood your post. Please consider yourself removed from the list of GFW's to whom I was responding.

AWP, there is no "doom" fantasy, this is reality. An armed population is a polite, and I daresay safe, population. If you're a goblin planning something in which you will be using a gun, who are you going to pick as your victims: people in an area where they are allowed or even encouraged to carry, or people who are guaranteed to be disarmed due to ill-conceived legislation prohibiting them from carrying? I think we all know the answer to that one. Which is exactly why gun and knife crimes rose dramatically in the UK after they completely banned private ownership of guns and knives.

Sure, bryanD, keep your little "Doom" video game fantasy alive. Like it would be that easy, right?

Man you guys watch too much 24.

Posted by: average wizbang poster

average wizbang poster,

"24"...that's hitting below the belt. If fact I hate that Show SO MUCH, that i try not to mention it here. Don't want to get banned. THAT'S how much I hate That Show!

ps: I played the first DOOM. Had to cheat to complete BTW, so it wasn't that easy to me! What I'd really like is for some super-geek to soup-up Halo 1 so the Covenant can chase my ass down instead of stopping at their invisible wall.

My sympathies go to you Ngo Posto...It's difficult to comment when so little information has been released, and yet hard to muster the interest to comment on anything else..One question I have though, is where were the security guards or campus police? Were they barred from carrying handguns as well?

average poster: "Whose to say there aren't already some kids at VT packing?"

Maybe the fact that it is illegal to carry on campus, have you not read anything that is being discussed here? Or heard about the legislation and the student who got in trouble previously for carrying in class WITH the proper permits, spurring on the new rules? Theoretically, the criminal who just shot up 32 innocent people is the only person who was carrying.

"Some college kid with a gun and very little experience"

So, a college kid with a gun and very little experience was able to just murder 32 people, yet another college kid with a gun and very little experiance wouldn't be able to kill just one? Nice logic. By the way, to get a carry permit you have to display exceptoinal knowledge and control of your firearm. If the student that got in trouble for utilizing his legal carry permit was in that building, could have been a much different outcome.

"(CNSNews.com) - After two armed southwest Virginia law students stopped a campus shooting rampage in January, a Second Amendment group at a northern Virginia law school decided it was time to change their own school's ban on guns."

Granted, that happened in 2002 and you were still sucking on a juice box and taking naps in class at the time, so I forgive you for your complete ignorance.

>Does the main body of this story really refer to "Hokie War", which amounts to a frat boy waterfight, as an "unfortunate coincidence" that "looks pretty bad". You gotta be f'n kidding me, right?

Yes and no.... Kevin is making the point that if the shooter even just saw someone involved in it walking down the street, the media will pounce all over it and blame the "culture of violence" it supposedly perpetuates.

As we embrace the grief of the families and friends who suffered a tragic loss today...
So far this month 61 have been killed in Iraq.
I only have this to offer

Whatever the question, love is the answer.
Whatever the problem, love is the answer.
Whatever the illness, love is the answer.
Whatever the pain, love is the answer.
Whatever the fear, love is the answer.
Love is always the answer because, Love is all there is.

I will also add the tragic death of anyone..from our nation because of a lack of medical coverage..or the death of a woman or children because our courts and police refused to acknowledge the established threat of a male.

The change has to take place in white males..we are the power..until we give it up..this will happen..and it should not take it happening on a personal level..

by the way ...still waiting for a repudiation of Terry's remarks...
...but I am not holding my breath...
an upfront challenge..
either those posting here
support or repudiate them...
We all want it both ways...
His remarks are posted...
ignoring them do not make it a non-event any more than not opening your utility bill makes it go away...
Yeah..Lee posts...Mantis posts..nogo posts..fire away..
but you all lack the courage to say one of your own is wrong...how freakin' pathetic..

Lorie..Kim..Tea..I'm talkin' to you...
Do you support Terry's remarks or not?
C'mon...do you believe the deaths of these young people are a joke?
Do you believe not addressing them is ok?
Yeah..I stress this because I know someone who was murdered in a classroom..and yes this is personal..
but your silence..speaks as loud as Terry's remarks..
...am leaving now..A local University is giving a candle vigil for the lives lost today...

Read an analysis of the influences in our "Chain Letter Society" that may be precipitating events like the tragedy at Virginia Tech and how our focus on winning and being number one may be fostering a generation of children with fully inadequate coping skills who have a misguided sense of self-worth...here:

Wow. People looking at this tragedy and saying that no one should leave home without packing heat!!! People leaving for the office, children for school, everyone needs to have two pistols in their holsters before leaving home, right???

Yes, gunlovers, we can all return to the glorious days of the Old West. Trouble for you, though, is that the criminal having foreknowledge that a crime is going to be committed, draws his weapon first (your own gun not being of much use as you're reaching for the sky). And I would say that he could at least several before getting killed himself, significantly more if he's wearing a bullet-proof vest.

Would you have us all be wearing bullet-proof vests too? That might well have cut down on the carnage in Virginia. Don't leave home without your vest, too?

You ever stop and think what it would be like, everyone, everywhere carrying guns??? Guns on buses, subways, in malls, factories, offices, all over. Children, teenagers carrying guns (hey, they can be shot too, right??? Think Columbine). IS THIS THE KIND OF WORLD YOU WANT??

Or wouldn't it be much better IF NO ONE HAD A GUN? Those extremely low gun ownership rates in Europe, are you going to tell me that that is unquestionably impossible here in the U.S.??? No one has a gun, no one gets murdered by the gun.

The last time there was a shooting at a Virginia institution of higher learning, the shooter was only able to kill 3 before he was stopped by three students, two of whom had the guns their carry permits allowed them to carry.

Check the crime stats for states that have carry laws against those that don't.

And, use that logic the next time someone holds you up at gunpoint. Many drugs are illegal, but readily available. What good what it do to tip the scales even more in the favor or a criminal who's going to do whatever he wants, not matter what the law states?

The guns are out there.

You might as well try to outlaw butter knives for all the good it will do.

"Check the crime stats for states that have carry laws against those that don't." -- mesablue

Why don't you, and then get back to us. And while you're at it, compare the murder rate in the U.S. with, say, the U.K., and let us know if this difference ain't substantially larger.

"And, use that logic the next time someone holds you up at gunpoint." -- mesablue

Well, it's never happened. But I shall try to comply with you nonetheless. Someone holds me up at gunpoint, ergo, the gun is pointed at me. Now even if I do have a weapon in my holster or concealed upon me, I reckon if I pull it out, I'm a dead man. Better to just give the robber the money than forfeit my life, wouldn't you say? So you see, my gun's not really helping me now, is it?

This incident should be compared to the U. Texas campus tower incident in 1966. That brain cancer-deranged shooter was shot by a combination of police and fellow students who pulled rifles out of their car trunks and began firing back in self-defense. If there would have been no armed students on the UTx campus in 1966, the death toll would have been higher as the shooter in the tower had a commanding vantage point of the entire campus.

The bickering about politics is pretty damned stone-hearted just about now.

With all respect, DJ, you have no clue what my heart is made, nor are you equipped to know what's going on in my heart right now. You have no idea why I have insisted that my wife and daughters get concealed-carry permits. You have no idea whatsoever what type of emotional hell the events of today have evoked. You do not know me.

first let me say that this really was a tragedy. It shouldn't have happened the way it did! Police and university staff should react the same moment they found out! You can't compare the university campus with a small town. I mean, Hello?!? Emails should go out the same moment! Panic? At least they would run the shooter over!

And parents of this kid should be prosecuted also! Its all about how they brought the kid up, how they tought him the values in live...a big shame!

As you may have already noticed I don't come from america. I see that the guns are legal there...is this a joke? What good could come from it?? So you can protect yourself and kill a person if they mean you harm?!? Did anyone of your government ever heard of right to live?!? It doesn't matter what you did, you have a right to live...what kind of life it is(in a prison or something else) it IS a life!! Nobody has the right to take it away...they can limit it, but not take away! And some of you here are saying that guns should be permitted in schools. Are you for real?!? How would an innocent speeder be treated from the police then if they assumed everyone has a gun?!? would they blow the car up first and give a ticket later?? This all is nonsense! One huge nonsense! Guns are a bad invention...nothing good ever came out of it...its like you would say that an atom bomb was a must so we can now have nuclear power plants...almost a million of people had to die before they did something useful from it...

anyway...at the end i would like everyone to mourn for a minute and think of things...weapons are NOT the way to solve things, NOT the way to make your penis enlarge over a meter ... AND THEY ARE NOT FOR EVERYONE!!! Imagine we could use tanks to go from A to B, demolish a few buildings just for fun, cause kids at the back forgot their ultra-violent video games at home...oh please...

oh and ofcourse one last thing...to the guy who said that they were probably white and privileged...this can only come from a mean with no brains at all...remember...brains control the heart!

Be nice people! Your country doesn't have to have the sour sounding to it...love your country and don't put cowboys on the highest chair...

America is very beautiful country, but with things like this it doesn't get much better than iraq...

Be realistic and do something about it! Power is in the people and not in the idiots on the top!

Andrej, you haven't studied our history enough to know why we still have the right to keep and bear arms. Please do, it was the 2nd Amendment to our Constitution (hence the 2nd most important). I'm still shaken over this.

You people talk about this "doom" culture...what about this news media porn culture?
Too many gruesome pictures
too many "cell phone videos/pictures"
too many students clamoring to be on CNN with "Their story"

For God's sake people, these ARE people's children, especially the freshman! Just barely adults themselves...

Sometimes it all just makes me sick and want to completely stay away from "the news".

Henry you are right, I don't know enough about your history or your constitution, but I am not sure if i want to know much more. It is absolutely outrageous to allow ordinary civilians to carry any sort of lethal weapon. Its not just that they can use it for seeding fear and for taking justice in their own hands, but accidents can and will happen for the same reason. I just don't approve it and i don't see any reason why i should.

I'm 15, i know no one from this college.. i'm scared to attend a college now.... no one deserves to die the way those 32 people died.. 2 terrible tragedies have occured in my lifetime..... my question is.. WHY??? america is losing it's teenagers.... yeah wat happened to "The Kids Are Out Future"?????

Several points. To those who believe an armed society is a polite and safe society, go to Somalia,Kashmir or any truly armed society and see for yourself. I've never felt truly safe in any of the armed societies I've lived in and having an AKM when I was in Somalia didn't make me feel any safer.
The second point is that while an armed student body may have prevented deaths in this instance our experienving ce here in New Zealand is that having every student armed for the last ten years would have caused more deaths nation wide by accident or by suicide or homicide that would not have happened had a gun not been on hand.
Gun laws that help create a safer and more respectful society need not be draconian.
I'm a gun using student who can hunt or target shoot whenever I like but also have the luxury of living in a country where the cops don't, as a rule, carry guns.
If you'd like to live in a country like that try New Zealand. We aren't perfect but the lifestyle is amazing

I want to commend all law officials that responded to monday morning shooting at tech. many are saying that it was not handled correctly and that many could have been spared.

I have watched and listen and from the information from interviews and the person of interest, I feel that it was handled as it appeared with all information given. An isolated incident. response. secure. and safe.

I have each and every one in my prayers and I know that he HOKIES will prevail. I heard a lot from our politicians, va tech and others at convocation. It was very well presented. The vigil tonight showed the community coming together and in awe of the tragedy,I saw spirit,faith,love and faith.

Wow. Your assessment is that forty-four words have provided a panorama to my soul. You're either very good or very arrogant. However, since this blog is a very small place, I don't have enough information to make either assertion. I'll defer that to Someone infinitely better equipped. This blog is only an infinitesimal place in life.

God help you.

And God bless you. I pray for you and your loved ones. I pray that He answers your prayers. I pray your kept safe, warm, and fed. I pray He fills your cup and then fills it up again.

Seriously.

And I am sincerely sorry I offended you. I pray that you can forgive me. We may disagree with one another, but I also believe that we do not understand each other. I don't know what you're dealing with, nor do you know that of me.

Im so so so sorry what has happened to all the families that had to go thru all this pain and saddness if i had ever had to lose a family member or friend like that i would probaly never smile again but i am telling you guys that many are sad with you and to hold on it will get better i promose everything has a good turn on it my heart goes out to all of you!!!!!!

Ok 1st of all terry moran just wants attention and that is the most pathetic way 2 do it.. 2nd of all sure why not.. lets give more guns to people "4 self defense" then more of this would happen.. common think w/ your brains people.. and 3rd this should be a memorial page honoring students not a place for more hate and bashing of other people.. Isnt that what got us here in the 1st place??
I would lk to pay my grievences to all who has lost some1 at this horrible massacre and say those kids will always be mourned! and my prayers will forever be w/ both the killers parents as well as the victims...