Thanks for pointing out the rules. However, it is not being followed by the USTA.

Tournaments are being played in 110 degrees with only 60 minutes in between singles and 30 minutes between doubles.

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The extreme heat rule (2 hours rest) became effective on March 19, 2012. This is recent, so (1) stories from before that time are not relevant, and (2) I would not be surprised if some tournament directors this summer are not up to speed on the new rule.

Hi Dallas and Julie,
Since TRN does not include birth year or date of a player, what is your protocol to prevent manipulation of graduation year to gain edge on ranking and stars?
I looked up my daughter's tournament activity on TRN today and saw a girl she beat a few months ago now ranked 80's on TRN. At the time, she was around 203, high 3 stars. Curious how she improved quickly, searched her profile and saw it changed year of graduation, now a rising 6th grade.This player had a confirmed grad year and even player bio 3 months ago so it was intentionally "UPDATED". A ~5 ft 4 whose mother told me she was~ 12 now is a rising 6th grade, unrated (waiting to be rated high 4 or even 5 stars this September.....LOL!!).
That girl looked sharp to me and bless her heart.....she might be held back FOR REAL. Question is...without DOB or birth year (for coaches) to take in account...parents can report kids being held back. Once in high school......attracting several college coaches because of inflated ranks.......will you let the person change the grad year again? Do they have to submit any proof if keep changing grad yr?
I am sure some parents are pulling all the tricks they could. Since TRN ranking has quite an impact on college recruiting, please consider ways(birth year? or ???) to make your ranking system a bit more cheater-proof.

The extreme heat rule (2 hours rest) became effective on March 19, 2012. This is recent, so (1) stories from before that time are not relevant, and (2) I would not be surprised if some tournament directors this summer are not up to speed on the new rule.

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Is there a site that they post new rules? Thanks for the date it is effective.

Last national tournament in May, no one knew of this rule, including myself.

Date of birth is reported in TRN. It is in the Private Information section of Player's Bio. Coaches have access to this. If any parents or players haven't filled out this field, suggest you give it a go.

For anyone who wants to lie about their birthdays, I think that will turn out to be a fool's errand.

If the suggestion is to rank by age rather than class, well I think we've had that discussion somewhere here before. Here is what TRN says about this on their FAQ page

What is so important about ranking by graduating class? Rankings by graduation year are important to college coaches. Colleges recruit based on graduation year, and age-based rankings - particularly two-year rankings like 18 & Under and 16 & Under - are too coarse for college coaches.

Hi Dallas and Julie,
Since TRN does not include birth year or date of a player, what is your protocol to prevent manipulation of graduation year to gain edge on ranking and stars?
I looked up my daughter's tournament activity on TRN today and saw a girl she beat a few months ago now ranked 80's on TRN. At the time, she was around 203, high 3 stars. Curious how she improved quickly, searched her profile and saw it changed year of graduation, now a rising 6th grade.This player had a confirmed grad year and even player bio 3 months ago so it was intentionally "UPDATED". A ~5 ft 4 whose mother told me she was~ 12 now is a rising 6th grade, unrated (waiting to be rated high 4 or even 5 stars this September.....LOL!!).
That girl looked sharp to me and bless her heart.....she might be held back FOR REAL. Question is...without DOB or birth year (for coaches) to take in account...parents can report kids being held back. Once in high school......attracting several college coaches because of inflated ranks.......will you let the person change the grad year again? Do they have to submit any proof if keep changing grad yr?
I am sure some parents are pulling all the tricks they could. Since TRN ranking has quite an impact on college recruiting, please consider ways(birth year? or ???) to make your ranking system a bit more cheater-proof.

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I know it was directed to TRN.

But, just some thoughts:

1) You can change your kids grade up until the minute they enter high school.
Once 9th grade starts, the clock is ticking.

2) I agree with you in that it would be nice if they posted birth dates because
some, well a lot, of training facilities/tennis clubs do give out scholarships and partial scholarships based on stars.
And, a lot, if not most of these places don't do a lot of hw.
So, your 6th grader who should be a 7th grader looks a lot better and gets the scholarship over your kid,
even though if they were the same grade,
your kid might be higher....
Get it.

3) I would like if TRN put in the birthdates too.
There is a simple computer program they could run to do birthdates by months without giving out the actual birthdates.

4) Many folks have complained, nice to hear another voice too.

What is strange for me is that TRN does seem to understand the unfairness of the new USTA reduced tournament system,
as they are advertising the opens now. ( one in GA same time as clay courts which is great for kids who didn't get into clays).

So, I am surprised they don't understand that folks want an honest, transparent system
where Johnny doesn't get a free ride based on an inflated star system because they played the system.

And while College coaches can look in the system and see the actual age come junior or senior year.....
By then, a lot of kids got screwed -
Kids do get affected even in High School when from the same grade -
the 5 star 9th grader gets the free scholarship for camp over the 4 star player 9th grader, but the 5 star is 20 months older.
The birth month 16 years and 4 months is not on the front page, so no one knows.......

And I am sure this will be labeled as "whining" etc by all the parents who have gamed the system and don't want their kid found out.
But, I am for honest, transparent systems.
Now, we could talk about self esteem issues when dad has to hold junior back to look good, but that should be another thread.

And remember the suggestion to TRN by our Florida Coach was to be voluntary and by month ( 16 years, and 1/4) so no actual birthdate is shown - good suggestions. That way, when free scholarships are handed out in middle school and high school, they actually go to the kid who has talent, not the parent who gamed the system.

I don't want my kid's birth date or month posted on TRN. I am not interested in seeing any other kid's birthdate or birth month. Why would anyone have a legitimate reason to see any other kid's birthdate......unless that person is a coach.

I think TRN is handling it right by making birthdates available to coaches-only in the private information section of the player bio.

1) You can change your kids grade up until the minute they enter high school.
Once 9th grade starts, the clock is ticking.

2) I agree with you in that it would be nice if they posted birth dates because
some, well a lot, of training facilities/tennis clubs do give out scholarships and partial scholarships based on stars.
And, a lot, if not most of these places don't do a lot of hw.
So, your 6th grader who should be a 7th grader looks a lot better and gets the scholarship over your kid,
even though if they were the same grade,
your kid might be higher....
Get it.

3) I would like if TRN put in the birthdates too.
There is a simple computer program they could run to do birthdates by months without giving out the actual birthdates.

4) Many folks have complained, nice to hear another voice too.

What is strange for me is that TRN does seem to understand the unfairness of the new USTA reduced tournament system,
as they are advertising the opens now. ( one in GA same time as clay courts which is great for kids who didn't get into clays).

So, I am surprised they don't understand that folks want an honest, transparent system
where Johnny doesn't get a free ride based on an inflated star system because they played the system.

And while College coaches can look in the system and see the actual age come junior or senior year.....
By then, a lot of kids got screwed -
Kids do get affected even in High School when from the same grade -
the 5 star 9th grader gets the free scholarship for camp over the 4 star player 9th grader, but the 5 star is 20 months older.
The birth month 16 years and 4 months is not on the front page, so no one knows.......

And I am sure this will be labeled as "whining" etc by all the parents who have gamed the system and don't want their kid found out.
But, I am for honest, transparent systems.

Click to expand...

Even you did this, people would still find a way to game the system. Not sure how, but they will.

I think you also wouldn't be able to tell the difference between people gaming the system rather than kids who were just held back for one reason or another, legitimate or not. You can check to see if they are eligible or ineligible in their corresponding age division.

Date of birth is reported in TRN. It is in the Private Information section of Player's Bio. Coaches have access to this. If any parents or players haven't filled out this field, suggest you give it a go.

For anyone who wants to lie about their birthdays, I think that will turn out to be a fool's errand.

If the suggestion is to rank by age rather than class, well I think we've had that discussion somewhere here before. Here is what TRN says about this on their FAQ pageWhat is so important about ranking by graduating class? Rankings by graduation year are important to college coaches. Colleges recruit based on graduation year, and age-based rankings - particularly two-year rankings like 18 & Under and 16 & Under - are too coarse for college
coaches.

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Mister bill,
I don't recall it is imperative to fill DOB before confirming grad yr. The loophole is there.
I don't ask to rank by age but to have other data eg. Year born or ?? so to double checked on grad year comparison. Can be even posted just birth year....therefore.... No coaches will compare 4 star/9th grade/14 yo with 5 star/reported 9 th grade/unreported 16 year old.

Even you did this, people would still find a way to game the system. Not sure how, but they will.

I think you also wouldn't be able to tell the difference between people gaming the system rather than kids who were just held back for one reason or another, legitimate or not. You can check to see if they are eligible or ineligible in their corresponding age division.

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Well.... and yes, this is a generalization,
but tennis kids are pretty smart, no one is left back for academic reasons.

And the few cases where the kid was really sick, they are pretty well known.

Now, maybe parents would find a new way to game the system, maybe, an implant in their ear for coaching instructions.
But like I said folks like a transparent, honest system.
This is an easy fix with a volunteer age on the front of 14 years and 2 months or 14 1/4 etc.
Computer could update it monthly or quarterly.

1) You can change your kids grade up until the minute they enter high school.
Once 9th grade starts, the clock is ticking.

2) I agree with you in that it would be nice if they posted birth dates because
some, well a lot, of training facilities/tennis clubs do give out scholarships and partial scholarships based on stars.
And, a lot, if not most of these places don't do a lot of hw.
So, your 6th grader who should be a 7th grader looks a lot better and gets the scholarship over your kid,
even though if they were the same grade,
your kid might be higher....
Get it.

3) I would like if TRN put in the birthdates too.
There is a simple computer program they could run to do birthdates by months without giving out the actual birthdates.

4) Many folks have complained, nice to hear another voice too.

What is strange for me is that TRN does seem to understand the unfairness of the new USTA reduced tournament system,
as they are advertising the opens now. ( one in GA same time as clay courts which is great for kids who didn't get into clays).

So, I am surprised they don't understand that folks want an honest, transparent system
where Johnny doesn't get a free ride based on an inflated star system because they played the system.

And while College coaches can look in the system and see the actual age come junior or senior year.....
By then, a lot of kids got screwed -
Kids do get affected even in High School when from the same grade -
the 5 star 9th grader gets the free scholarship for camp over the 4 star player 9th grader, but the 5 star is 20 months older.
The birth month 16 years and 4 months is not on the front page, so no one knows.......

And I am sure this will be labeled as "whining" etc by all the parents who have gamed the system and don't want their kid found out.
But, I am for honest, transparent systems.
Now, we could talk about self esteem issues when dad has to hold junior back to look good, but that should be another thread.

And remember the suggestion to TRN by our Florida Coach was to be voluntary and by month ( 16 years, and 1/4) so no actual birthdate is shown - good suggestions. That way, when free scholarships are handed out in middle school and high school, they actually go to the kid who has talent, not the parent who gamed the system.

Click to expand...

If any scholarship-granting organization is depending on TRN........rather than their own application procedure....... to certify birthdates it says more about the organization than about TRN.

Can anyone do the Board a favor and tell us which organizations operate this way?

Mister bill,
I don't recall it is imperative to fill DOB before confirming grad yr. The loophole is there.
I don't ask to rank by age but to have other data eg. Year born or ?? so to double checked on grad year comparison. Can be even posted just birth year....therefore.... No coaches will compare 4 star/9th grade/14 yo with 5 star/reported 9 th grade/unreported 16 year old.

Click to expand...

TRN does have other data. They do have birthdate.

It is in the private information section that coaches can see.

Is the issue here that other parents, players, strangers should be able to see tennis players' birthdays on the public overview page?

If any scholarship-granting organization is depending on TRN........rather than their own application procedure....... to certify birthdates it says more about the organization than about TRN.

Can anyone do the Board a favor and tell us which organizations operate this way?

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I guess I need to block your posts from now on.

It is just frustrating that your junior doesn't even play in the USTA system anymore,
and you continue to post comments to further erode the board's purpose which is to educate each other . Really a shame.

Every tennis club and major tennis facility goes by the star system for partial scholarship or full scholarship.
Maybe, Bolliteri and USTA have a large staff to sit there and go this one's birthdate is 19 months higher than this one,
but most clubs are not set up that way.

Are you trying to pull each name?
Why don't you actually do your own homework and be a part of the system, so you can properly educate and inform......

Oh that's right, your junior doesn't play in the system anymore.
Thanks for wasting more time.

Weren't you also one of the folks who posted here and said the new 2014 USTA changes wouldn't affect the juniors being seen by college coaches??? Of course, you had no idea what the changes were, but that is another story.
Nice to misinform folks.

It is just frustrating that your junior doesn't even play in the USTA system anymore,
and you continue to post comments to further erode the board's purpose which is to educate each other . Really a shame.

Every tennis club and major tennis facility goes by the star system for scholarship or full scholarship.

Are you trying to pull each name?
Why don't you actually do your own homework and be a part of the system, so you can properly educate and inform......

Oh that's right, your junior doesn't play in the system anymore.
Thanks for wasting more time.

Weren't you also one of the folks who posted here and said the new 2012 USTA changes wouldn't affect the juniors being seen by college coaches??? Of course, you had no idea what the changes were, but that is another story.
Nice to misinform folks.

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Your personal attack says more about you than about me........or my child who you have misidentified......for which I am so glad!

Any organization that grants scholarships, I think, needs to verify age by requesting a birth certificate. I think they should not be relying on a third party such as TRN to verify age. If they are, I'm sticking to my opinion that this would be an issue for the organization rather than for TRN.

You asked "Are you trying to pull each name?" I don't know what that means.

No prob if you block my posts. In fact, I think you have said multiple times you would ignore me. Please, please do!

EDIT: Can anyone name a reputable scholarship-granting academy/club/facility that does not require proof of birthdate? Sincere question, not a challenge

Hi Dallas and Julie,
Since TRN does not include birth year or date of a player, what is your protocol to prevent manipulation of graduation year to gain edge on ranking and stars?

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Hi 10ismom -

We do get these question a good bit. Let me explain what we do for graduation year - and for birthdates.

- We have pages available only to college coaches, and those pages do include birthdate information (along with academic information, contact information, etc.)

- Graduation years are something for which we have no data feed. We assign all kids a provisional graduation year based on their age, and we clearly mark those graduation years as provisional. (You have probably seen the yellow warning near the top stating, "Please Note: Analysis for this player is based on a provisional graduation year...")

- Graduation years get updated and confirmed when (1) a player/parent links to a profile and specifies the graduation year (which is required), (2) a college coach specifies the graduation year, or (3) we update the graduation year based on a news story or release - typically a college commitment article. We call these "confirmed graduation years", and we remove the provisional label once the year is confirmed.

- As you probably know, we review all profile updates, and the UI we use to accept changes calls out changes to graduation year. Modifications to a confirmed graduation year pop up additional panels, so we always look at these changes closely. Our current policy is to accept one change early in the process, because many kids/parents frankly don't know the graduation year if they are 6th or 7th graders. After one change, we lock the graduation year and require the player/parent to send us an email confirming the graduation year change. For questionable-looking changes (e.g., increasing or decreasing two classes), we sometimes require documentation from a school.

- There are times when parents complain about the graduation year of another player. E.g., "I know Johnny is a junior, but he just changed his class to sophomore." If we receive complaints like this, we investigate them and often contact the player and ask for documentation from the school.

So... these are our policies and procedures. As an aside, we do not think that there is a widespread problem. There are only a dozen or so requests to change graduation years each month, and we only get to the email confirmation step a couple of times per month.

And remember the suggestion to TRN by our Florida Coach was to be voluntary and by month ( 16 years, and 1/4) so no actual birthdate is shown - good suggestions. That way, when free scholarships are handed out in middle school and high school, they actually go to the kid who has talent, not the parent who gamed the system.

Click to expand...

This was a good suggestion, and it is on our feature list. Our highest priority for quite some time now has been working on a new subscription level that will include new features (e.g., Ranking Analysis). It has been slow going due to ongoing operations issues, but the new subscription level is higher priority that all the other items on our list.

I think that we will display age by quarters at some point - it will be voluntary and displayed by quarter (e.g. 16 years, 3 months) - but it may still be a while.

We do get these question a good bit. Let me explain what we do for graduation year - and for birthdates.

- We have pages available only to college coaches, and those pages do include birthdate information (along with academic information, contact information, etc.)...........
- Graduation years get updated and confirmed when (1) a player/parent links to a profile and specifies the graduation year (which is required),

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Good morning Dallas,

Thanks for your reply.

When player/parent links to a profile to specify a graduation year,is it required, not just voluntary...to fill out a player's birthdate?
From what I read your above posts.....it is required to fill in date of birth when you link to a player profile. Am I correct?

I was questioning that because I'm just afraid that a person might put a "not so true" graduation year and elect to omit the birthday.

I don't care as much if the kid is really being held back (although I feel sorry for them if it is for tennis recruiting reason), because eventually they are competing with kids graduating the same year.

It looks like the numbers posted this morning on TRN are not correct. Noticed a big shift in the ranking and when ckecked the activity the overall records don't match with the sum of matches. Seems to apply to all kids, just one example: http://www.tennisrecruiting.net/player.asp?id=627986

I actually feel sorry for Dallas and Julie that they have to deal with this issue over and over again. I guess it is the price they have to pay.

Tennisrecruiting.net is a TOOL that helps COLLEGE COACHES find players. Not for parents to feel better about a loss to a kid who is 18 months older than their son/daughter in the same grade. When they get to college they are going to potentially play kids that are 5 years older than them. Do you seriously think that a college coach cares if you are an 18 year old Freshman playing a 23 year old Senior? The answer is NO, they want the win, regardless of age or grade.

The only thing that posting the ages up for everybody to see is that you are going to help out the older players. If you want to put your child's age up for everybody to see you can add it to Player Bio page.

For the record, my son is young for his grade. Do we care? NO. Why don't we care? The coaches don't care.

Mitchell Frank was a Freshman this year at UVA. He played #3 for the most part. He was 38-2 on the season. EVERY player that he played was older than him. Do you think he felt better that the 2 losses he had were against older boys? NO, he didn't care about their age or grade.

For those parents that are going to talk to coaches. Do yourself a favor and don't say, "My son/daughter only lost two matches this year, but they were both 18 months older than him". It makes him/her sound like a coddled 6 year old and no coach in the country wants that.

I actually feel sorry for Dallas and Julie that they have to deal with this issue over and over again. I guess it is the price they have to pay.

Tennisrecruiting.net is a TOOL that helps COLLEGE COACHES find players. Not for parents to feel better about a loss to a kid who is 18 months older than their son/daughter in the same grade. When they get to college they are going to potentially play kids that are 5 years older than them. Do you seriously think that a college coach cares if you are an 18 year old Freshman playing a 23 year old Senior? The answer is NO, they want the win, regardless of age or grade.

The only thing that posting the ages up for everybody to see is that you are going to help out the older players. If you want to put your child's age up for everybody to see you can add it to Player Bio page.

For the record, my son is young for his grade. Do we care? NO. Why don't we care? The coaches don't care.

Mitchell Frank was a Freshman this year at UVA. He played #3 for the most part. He was 38-2 on the season. EVERY player that he played was older than him. Do you think he felt better that the 2 losses he had were against older boys? NO, he didn't care about their age or grade.

For those parents that are going to talk to coaches. Do yourself a favor and don't say, "My son/daughter only lost two matches this year, but they were both 18 months older than him". It makes him/her sound like a coddled 6 year old and no coach in the country wants that.

Sorry if this sounds harsh but it is reality.

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Sorry....but you totally miss the point I was trying to make about preventing of manipulation of ranking on TRN. Please look at my post # 52.

For the record, I think that TRN has great unique ranking by class year. That is relevant to college recuiting and coaches. I totally agree.

The question, I tried to raise is about the grad year is fake. If parents are not required to report birthday but can just report the grad year.....then it is a loophole to someone to fraud it.

I should have deleted my post # 71 since you prob thought I was trying to make TRN to show the age to public.

I certainly don't care about ranking by age. USTA rank already has that.
I just want TRN to have stringent criteria to prevent player/parent manipulating the system.

I know 4 or 5 players right now who had a couple of hot tournaments and are just sitting back thinking that the coaches only care about the stars. It happens all the time.

You have to trust that the coaches know what they are doing.

Have a little faith.

As you can probably tell, the coaching market is very volatile. Most of the good coaches are doing a lot of homework on players before they are signing them.

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I agree with these sentiments. TRN is just one tool that college coaches use. From what you hear at college recruiting forums, the database of contact information available to coaches is the most important and most-used feature we have. We always recommend parent/players update as much information as they are comfortable sharing - updating this information can be done with a free account.

Is the issue here that other parents, players, strangers should be able to see tennis players' birthdays on the public overview page?

I can be persuaded, but someone has to give me a good reason first

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Yes, that is the issue. You see, if the birthdates are posted publicly, then when player A beats player B, player B's dad can make the excuse that player A is a certain age. Or, if player A is a 5-star in the class of 2015 and player B is a 4-star in the class of 2014, player B's dad can tell everyone that player A really ought to be in the class of 2014, in which case he would not be ranked any higher than player B.

If the age is a secret, then the age basis for excuse-making and *****ing and whining and putting down other players is not there for everyone to see.

Yes, that is the issue. You see, if the birthdates are posted publicly, then when player A beats player B, player B's dad can make the excuse that player A is a certain age. Or, if player A is a 5-star in the class of 2015 and player B is a 4-star in the class of 2014, player B's dad can tell everyone that player A really ought to be in the class of 2014, in which case he would not be ranked any higher than player B.

If the age is a secret, then the age basis for excuse-making and *****ing and whining and putting down other players is not there for everyone to see.

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Thanks for my laugh of the day............and as they say, the truth is often told in jest!

Are you serious? It's not fair? This is competitive tennis, not t-ball where everyone gets equal times at bat. Get in shape or get off the court. It's that simple. If it's too hot for junior, or he/she has had a long match and they are too tired or out of shape, whichever, they can withdraw before they start playing. Every player faces unusual challenges of some kind at some point in their playing career. The strong survive, that's competition.

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What do coaches want... The player in best shape / best heat tolerance/ endurance... Or the best tennis player?

I thought you might have hinted my previous posts in this thread (if you remembered) was a fixate on TRN for middle schoolers.
In reality, I just posted my observation on a person trying to add a star or two rolling back a grade.

I thought you might have hinted my previous posts in this thread (if you remembered) was a fixate on TRN for middle schoolers.
In reality, I just posted my observation on a person trying to add a star or two rolling back a grade.

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Quote up what I said, and if your thinking or reading bears any semblance to reality, I will retract.

Can't defend or retract something you "thought I might have hinted" without you showing the Board what it is

^^^ and if you dig deep enough, you will find several kids being held back before getting to high school.

The scholarship chasing game has gone too far.
In our family, we cannot "sacrifice" education for a tennis scholarship.

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"Several kids being held back before getting to high school". Out of tens of thousands of kids who play tennis it may account for 1/100th of 1% who have done this with the intent you claim. It can't be proved any way. Focusing on what we can can control and we'll all enjoy things like tennis more.

Just came across this thread and apologies for re-opening the debate. My opinion is that the TR rankings are in many ways more meaningful than the USTA ones. When you look at the reasons some players are ranked higher or lower on the TR system it is because it devalues the points earned by kids / parents who drive up and down their State or even the country looking for cheap points from tournaments with low level competition. TR recognizes that and it is good.
One point I would like to make is that there is no recognition of doubles results in the TR system. In this respect I think the USTA system is better where 15% of doubles points count. I wonder why TR cannot do this, i would have thought college coaches are interested in doubles performance too ?
Also why do star ratings start from 6th graders ? There are a lot of 4th and 5th graders playing competitive tennis. I cant imagine it is because college coaches start being interested in players at age 11 but not 9 and 10. Just seems a little arbitrary and it would be nice to extend it to younger kids.

Just came across this thread and apologies for re-opening the debate. My opinion is that the TR rankings are in many ways more meaningful than the USTA ones. When you look at the reasons some players are ranked higher or lower on the TR system it is because it devalues the points earned by kids / parents who drive up and down their State or even the country looking for cheap points from tournaments with low level competition. TR recognizes that and it is good.
One point I would like to make is that there is no recognition of doubles results in the TR system. In this respect I think the USTA system is better where 15% of doubles points count. I wonder why TR cannot do this, i would have thought college coaches are interested in doubles performance too ?
Also why do star ratings start from 6th graders ? There are a lot of 4th and 5th graders playing competitive tennis. I cant imagine it is because college coaches start being interested in players at age 11 but not 9 and 10. Just seems a little arbitrary and it would be nice to extend it to younger kids.

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I agree with you about the doubles. Doubles participation should be factored in somehow, especially when kids are play high quality L1-L3 level tennis. There has to be some algorithm to make this happen somehow....maybe some type of aggregate rating.

However, I don't agree with star rating for 4-6th graders. In fact, my feeling is that star rating shouldn't occur till freshmen year high school...when tournament results really count for kids planning on playing college tennis. Just like rankings in the 10s and 12s...they don't really mean anything. It just give kids and parents a false sense of security. Just my 2 cents.

I understand the point about star ratings too early. But to be honest every website benefits from having an entertainment factor and the kids and their parents do enjoy that feature of the site. I dont think it does any harm because nearly all of the younger kids / parents are only interested in the USTA rankings and the star rating is an interesting feature for them. No danger of it affecting their game in any way. At that age they are dreaming of the pro tour not planning or college. No reason that they shouldnt enjoy the site though.
Would be interested on TR's position on doubles !

Who gives a crap about star rankings until junior year in high school? It is determibed by what grade you are in, not age.

You will find the following junior year...

If you want to play in an Div 1 NCAA top 50 program, you better have five stars or you re assumed to not fit.

If you want d 1 mid major, you better be four stars.
If you are three stars, better look really good on film or have a huge serve or weapon to develop... Or no d1 for you.

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you maybe focusing on Men, but a 2* and 3* girl can get a full scholarship at many smaller D1 schools. Local D1 in my town #2 player was a 3* Freshman. Look at several other schools and they have 2* and 3* players in the line-up and they are not just for filler/Title IX requirements.

Who gives a crap about star rankings until junior year in high school? It is determibed by what grade you are in, not age.

You will find the following junior year...

If you want to play in an Div 1 NCAA top 50 program, you better have five stars or you re assumed to not fit.

If you want d 1 mid major, you better be four stars.

If you are three stars, better look really good on film or have a huge serve or weapon to develop... Or no d1 for you.

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Rankings are always important, that's how you built up a kid that is getting ready to compete on bigger and bigger stages. If you start them earlier and they understand that their hard work is showing up somewhere it is very likely that they will try harder and push themselves more and more. It is different for some kids than others of-course..-

Just came across this thread and apologies for re-opening the debate. My opinion is that the TR rankings are in many ways more meaningful than the USTA ones. When you look at the reasons some players are ranked higher or lower on the TR system it is because it devalues the points earned by kids / parents who drive up and down their State or even the country looking for cheap points from tournaments with low level competition. TR recognizes that and it is good.
One point I would like to make is that there is no recognition of doubles results in the TR system. In this respect I think the USTA system is better where 15% of doubles points count. I wonder why TR cannot do this, i would have thought college coaches are interested in doubles performance too ?

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Hi Danny -

This is a question that has come up a lot over the years. (I actually took some of the material in this response from a previous posting.)

We currently do not include doubles play in our rankings or feature them prominently at TennisRecruiting.net. Why is this? I personally love doubles, and Julie Wrege (one of our founders who spent many years running the Girl's 14 Nationals in Atlanta) has always pushed for doubles to have prominence.

Our position is NOT because we find doubles unimportant. On the contrary, we would love to feature doubles more prominently. We are not doing more with doubles because it is a very difficult problem to tackle with a head-to-head ranking system.

Let me take a break to provide some background. (Apologies to those of you who already know all of this.) There are two kinds of ranking systems: (1) points-based systems, where players are fundamentally awarded points based on how far the progress in tournaments, and (2) head-to-head systems where players are assigned rank values based on who they beat. The USTA and (most of) its sections use points-based systems, and TennisRecruiting.net uses a head-to-head system.

Handling doubles in a points system is straightforward - just assign points to both players based on the round that they reach. You can even have a combined ranking that is a combination of point values from both singles and doubles.

In a head-to-head system, ranking with doubles is not so obvious. We tried some naïve things - like crediting both winners and penalizing both losers - but the resulting rankings were horrible. Combining doubles with singles failed just as badly. A second problem we ran into was data quality. We spend an enormous amount of time and money getting accurate data for singles. While the data quality for singles is pretty good, we have found it difficult to get good data for doubles.

So, to answer your question, we have approached this problem a couple of times, but the task always seemed daunting with no good solution - and even if there was a good solution we are unsure if we would be able to handle the problems of getting the data.

In the end, we have always decided to tackle much smaller problems that we knew we could solve - like including player photos, ranking recruiting classes, etc. We are a small company with very limited resources - we can only tackle a small number of features each year, and we want those features to have a good bang for the buck.

Hopefully we will find a way to feature doubles some day, but that day is probably far in the future.

Also why do star ratings start from 6th graders ? There are a lot of 4th and 5th graders playing competitive tennis. I cant imagine it is because college coaches start being interested in players at age 11 but not 9 and 10. Just seems a little arbitrary and it would be nice to extend it to younger kids.

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We talked about this when we started out. And you are correct - our choice of 6th grade is somewhat arbitrary. Here are a few reasons we start at 6th grade:

(1) Data for rankings really comes available in the 12-and-unders. There just isn't much data for the 10-and-unders. Most kids play 10&U until some time during the 5th grade.

(2) Honestly, ranking/rating elementary school kids at a website called TennisRecruiting.net seems a bit creepy. Our website does show some unofficial rankings for elementary school kids, but that is more of a mistake than anything else.

(3) We (obviously) have to cut things off somewhere. Middle and high school seems like a reasonable place to start.

(4) We debated whether or not to start our rankings/ratings in 9th grade, but introducing things in middle school gives players and parents a chance to learn about our site before it matters - so it is somewhat of an education and marketing tool for us.

Here is something to consider with respect to doubles rankings. A player is at a tournament and guys are pairing up for doubles. An old friend, not quite at Player A's level, asks if Player A will team up with him. In a points system, if they earn no points, no harm done. In a head to head system, Player A has an incentive to be a snob about it and turn down the request. Not playing doubles at all is better for his ranking than playing and losing in the first round.

I love doubles, and precisely for that reason, I hope TRN does not do a doubles ranking. The unintended consequences could be destructive to the already underemphasized doubles aspect of junior tennis in the U.S.A.