So question is will Rey initiate the kiss ( or more ) or will Kylo/Ben surprise her and “ take it” - Rey said to kylo in force awakens am not giving you anything when he said I can take whatever I want - famous last words - she’s already shipped herself to him after a few force bond sessions and will definitely be giving him more. Roll on episode 9!

@rawpowah wrote:I interpreted Rey's conflicting (for lack of a better word) body language as her wanting soft boi Ben Solo, while at the same time being intimidated by the more sensual/intense Kylo Ren because of her inexperience and not knowing what to do. At the same time, she was probably more comfortable initiating things than the other way around (because in the latter she doesn't know what's expected of her). If that makes sense.

@rawpowahI kind of agree with this split personality thing... she wants Ben and panics when she gets Kylo along with Ben. At the end of the throne room fight, she told herself that the "proposal" was coming from Kylo and not Ben. Deluded, she was.

Also, I kind of think of Rey being caught in a tinder/online relationship with a man she's only seen (and conversed/danced with) twice... and here they are... force-skyping and he's oh so gentle and has tears in his eyes and seems to get her... and then she meets him again in the flesh, and the elevator with its eventual end-run gives her the temporary strength to come on a bit stronger than she normally would. I can't ever forget her little frown while she lay in the coffin and looked up at him... such expectancy/muted excitement on her face... and he kind of had this stone face... so she frowns a little. She can't quite figure him out yet. And then the elevator thing happens...it's a very virginal reaction. The sudden sense of knowing that person and going for it until your courage fails a bit in the face of it.

Rey 's definitely a virgin. She's been fighting with aggressive men all her life... fighting them off and away from her personal space. It's what she does to Finn... her coping mechanism is sarcasm and physical aggression (STOP TAKING MY HAND! NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS THAT'S WHY!)... but the force bonds broke her apart. They were nothing like she's ever had before, and gave her a microscopic view of this man's insides that seemed to -- at times -- be made of jello.

@Kessel wrote:Yeah, Kylo’s look after killing that last guard was crazy intense; he never took his eyes off Rey, even when he was stabbing the guard. I think he’s just going with his feelings there, without even thinking, it’s just what’s coming naturally. She’s what he’s focused on. Too intense for poor Rey who’s not used to having a man look at her like that!

Funnily enough, I thought she seemed pretty aware of her effect on him and their mutual attraction in the elevator when she got in his personal space and stared at his lips, but I guess it’s a little scarier when you’re the target of the smoldering look rather than the one initiating it...

This is a great conversation! I've been reading the last few pages like:

I agree and I'd add that I feel that the TLJ novelization makes clear that Rey is attracted to Kylo/Ben but is also afraid/intimidated by the intensity of his attraction to her. Kylo senses that, and he's being incredibly gentle with her (this is more evidence that he's not a virgin, imo but that is a separate point XD). I think Rey is very aware of him and his "lightsaber" - to the point that even as she's fighting for her life she is literally attuned and paying attention to it "spitting and sputtering behind her" or whatever.

I thought it was super interesting that once the Praetorian throwdown was over, what really scared Rey was that "Kylo was approaching her with his lightsaber ignited, but there was no threat in him". I take that as a metaphor for "knowing what comes next", kind of like the nervous virginal bride on her wedding night. Hence the distraction tactics: "Look! It's a velociraptor the Resistance!" She just wasn't ready for this level of intensity, no matter how much part of her wanted it. It reminds me of Got to Give It Up by Marvin Gaye actually: "I was too nervous to really get down - but my body yearned to be free..."

If their minds are bridged, Ben would know she's attracted to him, right? I mean, that proposal has to have come from somewhere and not just because he thinks he's hot. He didn't just make it out of thin air. The scenes when she tells him to put a cowl on, when she holds out her hand, and then when she gets into his space in the elevator and looks into his eyes... those were all motivated by certain emotions on her part + body language. At least in my mind.

In the Bloodlines book iirc, Leia says Ben wears his hair long to cover his ears, so that's something he's self-conscious about. I don't think he's walking around FO ships thinking he's Johnny Bravo, but I would say his force sensitivity and his mental link with Rey might offer him some hint if someone finds him attractive (especially with Rey not being formally trained to block her thoughts or sever their bridged minds).

If you subscribe to the theory that Rey found him attractive when he took off his mask and tried to mask it because he's the villain, then imo that would certainly provide some answers for how they act in TLJ.

@Darth Rowan wrote:This is a great conversation! I've been reading the last few pages like:

I agree and I'd add that I feel that the TLJ novelization makes clear that Rey is attracted to Kylo/Ben but is also afraid/intimidated by the intensity of his attraction to her. Kylo senses that, and he's being incredibly gentle with her (this is more evidence that he's not a virgin, imo but that is a separate point XD). I think Rey is very aware of him and his "lightsaber" - to the point that even as she's fighting for her life she is literally attuned and paying attention to it "spitting and sputtering behind her" or whatever.

I thought it was super interesting that once the Praetorian throwdown was over, what really scared Rey was that "Kylo was approaching her with his lightsaber ignited, but there was no threat in him". I take that as a metaphor for "knowing what comes next", kind of like the nervous virginal bride on her wedding night. Hence the distraction tactics: "Look! It's a velociraptor the Resistance!" She just wasn't ready for this level of intensity, no matter how much part of her wanted it. It reminds me of Got to Give It Up by Marvin Gaye actually: "I was too nervous to really get down - but my body yearned to be free..."

Like those gifs show above, she *wants* him, but the intensity of those feelings and the vulnerability of that want, scares the hell out of her. She's spent her life living in an extremely guarded fantasy island, where getting in touch with her actual raw, authentic feelings was verboten in order to survive. And now she wants this intense man and he wants her, and she can see on his face and sense him that this want is raw and real and adult, and she just can't deal *at all*. That Marvin Gaye lyric is perfect!

I also agree that his gentleness with her is definitely evidence of him not being quite so virginal. A totally inexperienced guy would be all awkward and would try to touch her hair or impulsively try to kiss her, *grab her hand* out of nowhere, or would keep staring in a nervous way, not a smoldering way or would do something else equally impulsive and non-smooth. He doesn't do any of that.

I think if she doesn't initiate the kiss, (though I think she will), that he will ask permission to kiss her, whether it be verbal or with very deferential facial expressions.

Hmm i was thinking though - do you think Kylo is experienced or would it just be his princely upbringing? I would imagine he is quite traditional and strikes me as someone who believes in sex after marriage, especially with his religious and royal background - so he's generally quite respective of his love interest.

Dude knows he's hot. I think he was trying to impress Rey with his prettiness and abilities as much as he was trying to intimidate her during the interrogation with his "I can take whatever I want" shenanigans. He found her interesting and cute and wanted her to like him back. Otherwise I don't think he would have bothered to remove the mask in the first place. XD

Rey will initiate the kiss for sure. She's the one who dictates when the relationship moves forward and will continue to be and I feel it's definitely on purpose. Whenever Kylo takes initiative to "move it forward", it doesn't turn out well for him. This is Rey's love interest and she sets the intimacy pace. And for all Kylo's potential preening, he's gulping and puppy-eyed with fingers trembling when Rey holds out her hand to him in that hut.

Hmm i was thinking though - do you think Kylo is experienced or would it just be his princely upbringing? I would imagine he is quite traditional and strikes me as someone who believes in sex after marriage, especially with his religious and royal background - so he's generally quite respective of his love interest.

Hmm i was thinking though - do you think Kylo is experienced or would it just be his princely upbringing? I would imagine he is quite traditional and strikes me as someone who believes in sex after marriage, especially with his religious and royal background - so he's generally quite respective of his love interest.

I definitely think that Ben was raised to be respectful of women. Leia wouldn't have it any other way.

But after reading Last Shot, Bloodline, and the last two Aftermath books, I increasingly question the "princely" assumption associated with his upbringing. I am sure that he went to the best schools and I am sure his mother worked on teaching him to carry himself in an elegant way. But at the same time, she screams at people (Han) in public, enables Han and Lando's semi-legal schemes, smashes Ransolm's cabinet, starts an illegal paramilitary group, and gets pregnant either on the grass or in a primitive Ewok house under trees on Endor, probably pre-marriage. She also lost her virginity to Kier in the Leia book. So I don't know if premarital sex is a big issue for her.

Also, even if he was raised in a purely princely background that would not explain his smoldering gaze and keeping his shirt off when Rey asked him to put one on. I mean maybe young Prince William was a wild dude, but I honestly can't imagine him standing there bare and sweaty-chested in front of a girl he just met a couple days ago, where there are some bad feelings and she asks him to put a shirt on. But that's just how I see it.

Dude knows he's hot. I think he was trying to impress Rey with his prettiness and abilities as much as he was trying to intimidate her during the interrogation with his "I can take whatever I want" shenanigans. He found her interesting and cute and wanted her to like him back. Otherwise I don't think he would have bothered to remove the mask in the first place. XD

Dude knows he's hot. I think he was trying to impress Rey with his prettiness and abilities as much as he was trying to intimidate her during the interrogation with his "I can take whatever I want" shenanigans. He found her interesting and cute and wanted her to like him back. Otherwise I don't think he would have bothered to remove the mask in the first place. XD

@MrsWindu I think he's aware of any feelings Rey has for him because of their force bond. In the novelisation, in the elevator she can detect all the various feelings and emotions churning up within him so it stands to reason that he can feel hers too. Their psychic connection affords them an intimacy that is absolutely insane when you think about it, and then you couple that with the fact that they can feel each other physically through the FB (like Rey feeling the sensation of the droid stitching up Kylo's face on hers too) and it's crazy.

Personally, I think Kylo is a virgin, but are there times to suggest otherwise maybe.

This

and this

along with his "You do? Ah, you do" basically had Rey like

Even if he's not aware of the effect he might have on her, he knows how to dial up the intensity at least.

Dude knows he's hot. I think he was trying to impress Rey with his prettiness and abilities as much as he was trying to intimidate her during the interrogation with his "I can take whatever I want" shenanigans. He found her interesting and cute and wanted her to like him back. Otherwise I don't think he would have bothered to remove the mask in the first place. XD

@MrsWindu I think he's aware of any feelings Rey has for him because of their force bond. In the novelisation, in the elevator she can detect all the various feelings and emotions churning up within him so it stands to reason that he can feel hers too. Their psychic connection affords them an intimacy that is absolutely insane when you think about it, and then you couple that with the fact that they can feel each other physically through the FB (like Rey feeling the sensation of the droid stitching up Kylo's face on hers too) and it's crazy.

Personally, I think Kylo is a virgin, but are there times to suggest otherwise maybe.

This

and this

along with his "You do? Ah, you do" basically had Rey like

Even if he's not aware of the effect he might have on her, he knows how to dial up the intensity at least.

Right. There are a lot of options in the sexual toolbox, lol, some arguably more personal and intimate than actual intercourse. And though he may have not had actual intercourse with somebody, he acts like somebody who has experienced a number of those options. Like maybe after Luke went to bed, it wasn't all ancient force tomes and calligraphy for the students, lol. Rian did say "spin the bottle". When there is alcohol involved, all kinds of things happen.

well, being self-aware and confident about your own sexuality and the effect it has on others doesn't necessarily mean you actually had sex.(I know what I'm talking about *cough*)

I personally don't really care to be honest...I just can't think of him having any other girl he cared deeply enough for or the circumstances to take that step.

I think he is different in that regard from his parents- AND he had creepy Snoke in his had who abused him (to what extended, we still don't know). So I think he had other issues than girls in his mind- and it's not because he had a "princely" upbringing or some stupid purity "no sex before marriage" codex.

This is my favourite sexual look, so much hunger and desire in his eyes. Also Rey looks up at this scene so he must have been close to her.

Do we know if Luke expected his students to be celibate? In some cultures, pre-marital sex is still pretty taboo and because of that - the men in particular can be sexually frustrated and i guess more primal in their instincts lol. God they really sex'd Adam up in these shots, his lips are so red!

@Night Huntress wrote:well, being self-aware and confident about your own sexuality and the effect it has on others doesn't necessarily mean you actually had sex.(I know what I'm talking about *cough*)

I personally don't really care to be honest...I just can't think of him having any other girl he cared deeply enough for or the circumstances to take that step.

I think he is different in that regard from his parents- AND he had creepy Snoke in his had who abused him (to what extended, we still don't know). So I think he had other issues than girls in his mind- and it's not because he had a "princely" upbringing or some stupid purity "no sex before marriage" codex.

I agree. That's why I lean towards him being a virgin. I can't ever imagine him being into any other girls apart from Rey, and he's probably had Snoke in his head for most of his life and a very troubled childhood/adolescence so I'm not sure if it was even possible.

I'm not sure Luke expected that- I somehow hope he doesn't took the old Jedi way so literally. I just can't picture that his students making-out between their lessons. But I can be completely wrong- maybe I change my mind once we learn more what exactly went down at Luke Jedi-School.

My personal take is that Ben is a very passionate, intense character- in every aspect. He feels everything deeply- anger, hatred, self-loathing but also compassion, desire and love. And that comes of extremely compelling and attractive.

Whenever Kylo acts cool and confident and sure of himself and above it all, it always strikes me as more of an act/part of the mask than what he's actually like anyways. The way he talks to Rey in their first few Force bonds is just like how he talks to her when he has her captured in TFA and even somewhat how he talks to Poe/Lor San Tekka/other First Order members (one is through the mask versus without it, but the calmness in his voice is similar in both cases). And it always winds up breaking down and we see more of what seems to be actually him as he's forced out of his element. AKA the more emotional, less controlled moments he has that feel more genuine. It feels that way to me in TLJ also, going from his "You do? Ah, you do" to how he looks in that fingertip touching scene and that "please" in his proposal.

@rawpowah wrote:I interpreted Rey's conflicting (for lack of a better word) body language as her wanting soft boi Ben Solo, while at the same time being intimidated by the more sensual/intense Kylo Ren because of her inexperience and not knowing what to do. At the same time, she was probably more comfortable initiating things than the other way around (because in the latter she doesn't know what's expected of her). If that makes sense.

@rawpowahI kind of agree with this split personality thing... she wants Ben and panics when she gets Kylo along with Ben. At the end of the throne room fight, she told herself that the "proposal" was coming from Kylo and not Ben. Deluded, she was.

Also, I kind of think of Rey being caught in a tinder/online relationship with a man she's only seen (and conversed/danced with) twice... and here they are... force-skyping and he's oh so gentle and has tears in his eyes and seems to get her... and then she meets him again in the flesh, and the elevator with its eventual end-run gives her the temporary strength to come on a bit stronger than she normally would. I can't ever forget her little frown while she lay in the coffin and looked up at him... such expectancy/muted excitement on her face... and he kind of had this stone face... so she frowns a little. She can't quite figure him out yet. And then the elevator thing happens...it's a very virginal reaction. The sudden sense of knowing that person and going for it until your courage fails a bit in the face of it.

Rey 's definitely a virgin. She's been fighting with aggressive men all her life... fighting them off and away from her personal space. It's what she does to Finn... her coping mechanism is sarcasm and physical aggression (STOP TAKING MY HAND! NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS THAT'S WHY!)... but the force bonds broke her apart. They were nothing like she's ever had before, and gave her a microscopic view of this man's insides that seemed to -- at times -- be made of jello.

If I hadn't seen them as virgins before, I do now...the way she reacted to seeing him with his shirt off. And also how he reacted to her....genuinely puzzled by her embarrassment. I have a headcanon of Rose, the only one with a normal childhood, being the most sexually experienced of all of them...she initiated the kiss after all. Perhaps she'll have to tell Rey what to do....

@rawpowah wrote:I interpreted Rey's conflicting (for lack of a better word) body language as her wanting soft boi Ben Solo, while at the same time being intimidated by the more sensual/intense Kylo Ren because of her inexperience and not knowing what to do. At the same time, she was probably more comfortable initiating things than the other way around (because in the latter she doesn't know what's expected of her). If that makes sense.

@rawpowahI kind of agree with this split personality thing... she wants Ben and panics when she gets Kylo along with Ben. At the end of the throne room fight, she told herself that the "proposal" was coming from Kylo and not Ben. Deluded, she was.

Also, I kind of think of Rey being caught in a tinder/online relationship with a man she's only seen (and conversed/danced with) twice... and here they are... force-skyping and he's oh so gentle and has tears in his eyes and seems to get her... and then she meets him again in the flesh, and the elevator with its eventual end-run gives her the temporary strength to come on a bit stronger than she normally would. I can't ever forget her little frown while she lay in the coffin and looked up at him... such expectancy/muted excitement on her face... and he kind of had this stone face... so she frowns a little. She can't quite figure him out yet. And then the elevator thing happens...it's a very virginal reaction. The sudden sense of knowing that person and going for it until your courage fails a bit in the face of it.

Rey 's definitely a virgin. She's been fighting with aggressive men all her life... fighting them off and away from her personal space. It's what she does to Finn... her coping mechanism is sarcasm and physical aggression (STOP TAKING MY HAND! NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS THAT'S WHY!)... but the force bonds broke her apart. They were nothing like she's ever had before, and gave her a microscopic view of this man's insides that seemed to -- at times -- be made of jello.

If I hadn't seen them as virgins before, I do now...the way she reacted to seeing him with his shirt off. And also how he reacted to her....genuinely puzzled by her embarrassment. I have a headcanon of Rose, the only one with a normal childhood, being the most sexually experienced of all of them...she initiated the kiss after all. Perhaps she'll have to tell Rey what to do....

Oh wow, I hadn't thought about that with Rose, but I think you're onto something there. After all, in the novelization/early drafts, Rose also seems to be the one most aware of Finn's puppy dog crush on Rey (which IMO, came from a place of irritation, not jealousy, at that point). That would also be a nice setup for Rose being the first one for Rey to confide in or to understand Rey when the truth about the Force bond inevitably leaks out.

@rawpowah wrote:I interpreted Rey's conflicting (for lack of a better word) body language as her wanting soft boi Ben Solo, while at the same time being intimidated by the more sensual/intense Kylo Ren because of her inexperience and not knowing what to do. At the same time, she was probably more comfortable initiating things than the other way around (because in the latter she doesn't know what's expected of her). If that makes sense.

@rawpowahI kind of agree with this split personality thing... she wants Ben and panics when she gets Kylo along with Ben. At the end of the throne room fight, she told herself that the "proposal" was coming from Kylo and not Ben. Deluded, she was.

Also, I kind of think of Rey being caught in a tinder/online relationship with a man she's only seen (and conversed/danced with) twice... and here they are... force-skyping and he's oh so gentle and has tears in his eyes and seems to get her... and then she meets him again in the flesh, and the elevator with its eventual end-run gives her the temporary strength to come on a bit stronger than she normally would. I can't ever forget her little frown while she lay in the coffin and looked up at him... such expectancy/muted excitement on her face... and he kind of had this stone face... so she frowns a little. She can't quite figure him out yet. And then the elevator thing happens...it's a very virginal reaction. The sudden sense of knowing that person and going for it until your courage fails a bit in the face of it.

Rey 's definitely a virgin. She's been fighting with aggressive men all her life... fighting them off and away from her personal space. It's what she does to Finn... her coping mechanism is sarcasm and physical aggression (STOP TAKING MY HAND! NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS THAT'S WHY!)... but the force bonds broke her apart. They were nothing like she's ever had before, and gave her a microscopic view of this man's insides that seemed to -- at times -- be made of jello.

If I hadn't seen them as virgins before, I do now...the way she reacted to seeing him with his shirt off. And also how he reacted to her....genuinely puzzled by her embarrassment. I have a headcanon of Rose, the only one with a normal childhood, being the most sexually experienced of all of them...she initiated the kiss after all. Perhaps she'll have to tell Rey what to do....

Oh wow, I hadn't thought about that with Rose, but I think you're onto something there. After all, in the novelization/early drafts, Rose also seems to be the one most aware of Finn's puppy dog crush on Rey (which IMO, came from a place of irritation, not jealousy, at that point). That would also be a nice setup for Rose being the first one for Rey to confide in or to understand Rey when the truth about the Force bond inevitably leaks out.

Rian's "I think he probably played spin the lightsaber when he was under Luke's guardianship" will always crack me up b/c I remember post TFA reading more than one comment from people predicting that he and Rey probably want to play "hide the lightsaber" with one another.

Also I'm late to the gif party, but those are the exact perfect peacock moves. That whole moment when he takes off the mask is so many different things going on, like you can see in his body language that he knows he probably shouldn't do it, but she goads him by calling him a creature, and he takes is off with this slight aggravated move before slamming it down. But there's definitely a bit of his old man in there, because a lot of how he behaves around Rey in TFA is definitely, "You know, sometimes I even amaze myself."

Last edited by snufkin on Sun 29 Apr 2018, 4:27 pm; edited 1 time in total