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There would be a contradiction if God's will is done in heaven, and yet God's angels in heaven could sin.

I have already told you the grammatically incorrect words that can be taken to mean something else, and therefore because of something else, we have ambiguity. You can find my post where I gave you the link to the website which I cited. You want to ignore the information I have given you. You do not recognize, or want to admit, that those words also are leading to your get-around and explaining away the paradox.

You keep repeating yourself as if you have not been answered. I have answered your questions, and given you my explanations. Why do you not answer all the questions I have presented to you in the last couple of posts? Your answers will help us drill down so we can put an end to this argument.

Please explain the construction of the sentence you use and why you insist on using it, when I have told which words are ambiguous and can mean something you do not intend to say? I have stated the two simple propositions P and Q which are contradictory, so why not accept those two propositions? Can you simplify them any more?

that is for you to tell me. We either accept the way God has set things up, or you have to say how God should have done it.

Originally Posted by Rose

the Bible says that god ordained the sacrifice of Jesus for the sins of man, from the foundation of the world, so no testing was needed. According to the Bible god already knew that man would sin when he created him, and he did it anyway ...

You are just agreeing with what I have already said. The fact is that God also knew that man was capable of not sinning; it took Jesus to prove it.

Originally Posted by Rose

Not only did god know that his creation would sin, but he knew every single human that ever lived would sin ... he even knew that after destroying all life on the whole planet because of sin, wickedness would return in full force as bad or worse then it was before ... !

So what? I have agreed with you on this before. The Flood was not the solution to eradicating sin. The Flood provided a fresh start. Not too dissimilar to when the Kingdom of God is established in the time to come when a new era/start will begin with everyone in the kingdom being immortal and sinless.

Originally Posted by Rose

If the creation of sinful man was exactly as god planned, then of course it was flawed! If I create a robot knowing that it will go against what I created it for, then I am the one guilty of creating a flawed product.

It is called; taking responsibility. God's design is not flawed; not when it is as designed. Man is a self-programming creature by what enters into the mind. A person's character is formed or programmed. The mind is a very complex subject, and is a remarkable creation. Man is playing God if he thinks he will be able to duplicate the mind. Man does not understand enough to do that. I admit knowledge is increasing, but you will never know whether whether man will achieve what he thinks might be possible.

Originally Posted by Rose

Like I said: the whole Bible from beginning to end is one great big colossal waste of life. Why did god even bother creating life in the first place if all he was going to do is destroy it in one way or another? If god isn't killing life, then people are killing each other, or diseases or natural disasters ... it's just one big bloody mess!

The Bible is a history of mankind and it shows both the good side and the bad side of man. What God has in store for man; God's Kingdom, has not changed.

Originally Posted by Rose

Now, if you believe in naturalism like I do, it's all perfectly understandable why there is killing and death, but to think that a deity intentionally created things that way is pretty hard to swallow.

If you, as Rose, do no violence, why is that? Why does not everyone do as you do? Why cannot everyone be as good as you? Please answer those questions.

Originally Posted by Rose

The Garden story seems to be saying that god created the first couple in a pristine environment with no sin, and there is no talk of offspring at all ... it is only after they are kicked out of the Garden that the idea of having offspring is introduced. So, if Adam and Eve had stayed in the Garden they may have never had any offspring

Then think of what could have happened. What if Adam and Eve had not sinned, Cain and Abel could still have been born. What does God do now, when Cain kills Abel? How do you know that Adam and Eve would not sin at a later date? What happens then? The vulnerability of man to sin had to be exposed at the beginning. We know God had the plan to redeem man; that is evident in Genesis 3:15

You really should concentrate on what God has in store for them that love and fear him. You are given the prospect of eternal life and you are throwing it away. That is your choosing and the fault is not God's.

It is called; taking responsibility. God's design is not flawed; not when it is as designed. Man is a self-programming creature by what enters into the mind. A person's character is formed or programmed. The mind is a very complex subject, and is a remarkable creation. Man is playing God if he thinks he will be able to duplicate the mind. Man does not understand enough to do that. I admit knowledge is increasing, but you will never know whether whether man will achieve what he thinks might be possible.

Hello David

Yes, it's called taking responsibility and if your god were real he should take responsibility for creating humans with the desire to do bad things. Under your belief system, if god's design is not flawed then that means he intentionally designed humans in a manner that would allow them to "Self program" themselves to do wicked things. So, which is worse ... admitting to flawed workmanship, or intentionality in designing sinful creatures that delight in causing harm to each other?

I would much rather admit to a flaw in designing my robot that caused him to commit harmful acts, then to say I intentionally designed it in a manner I knew would result in negative actions.

Originally Posted by David M

If you, as Rose, do no violence, why is that? Why does not everyone do as you do? Why cannot everyone be as good as you? Please answer those questions.

All the best
David

Under naturalism, both nature and nurture are the determining factors in how we act. Our genetic make-up "Nature" coupled with the environment we are raised in "Nurture", governs how we perceive and react to the world around us. For example, if someone has a strong outgoing nature and they are indoctrinated with a religious mindset from the time of their youth, chances are that child is going to grow up and forcefully preach the doctrines of his religion, whereas a child with a demure and reclusive personality would react very differently given the same environment and circumstances. It's all about the push and pull between nature and nurture.

I have already told you the grammatically incorrect words that can be taken to mean something else, and therefore because of something else, we have ambiguity. You can find my post where I gave you the link to the website which I cited. You want to ignore the information I have given you. You do not recognize, or want to admit, that those words also are leading to your get-around and explaining away the paradox.

You keep repeating yourself as if you have not been answered. I have answered your questions, and given you my explanations. Why do you not answer all the questions I have presented to you in the last couple of posts? Your answers will help us drill down so we can put an end to this argument.

Please explain the construction of the sentence you use and why you insist on using it, when I have told which words are ambiguous and can mean something you do not intend to say? I have stated the two simple propositions P and Q which are contradictory, so why not accept those two propositions? Can you simplify them any more?

Your claims are false. You have never provided any legitimate evidence supporting your assertion that "and yet" is bad grammar or ambiguous. I have conclusively refuted your assertions and showed that you ignored and/or dodged the evidence. The phrase "and yet" is defined as a synonym of "though" in the Concise Oxford Dictionary. It is used in the definition of "paradox" in the Merriam-Webster Dictionary and the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary. It is used 35 times in the KJV. It was used by William Shakespeare. It is used by leading authorities on language in their peer-reviewed papers discussing the meaning of language. Your assertions are utterly absurd.

Your claims are false. You have never provided any legitimate evidence supporting your assertion that "and yet" is bad grammar or ambiguous. I have conclusively refuted your assertions and showed that you ignored and/or dodged the evidence. The phrase "and yet" is defined as a synonym of "though" in the Concise Oxford Dictionary. It is used in the definition of "paradox" in the Merriam-Webster Dictionary and the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary. It is used 35 times in the KJV. It was used by William Shakespeare. It is used by leading authorities on language in their peer-reviewed papers discussing the meaning of language. Your assertions are utterly absurd.

I have responded to your new thread to include a couple of things you left out. A separate thread should have been started a long time ago so as to avoid hijacking threads with this long-running argument.

Now please continue to respond to my last post in which I have asked you to answer the questions in the previous posts.

Yes, it's called taking responsibility and if your god were real he should take responsibility for creating humans with the desire to do bad things. Under your belief system, if god's design is not flawed then that means he intentionally designed humans in a manner that would allow them to "Self program" themselves to do wicked things. So, which is worse ... admitting to flawed workmanship, or intentionality in designing sinful creatures that delight in causing harm to each other?

If God made flawed designs, then I would not have reason to trust God's design of anything. We know man's design is often flawed. I expect you travel on planes with flaws in them. Planes can crash because of time and chance we call accidents; they also crash because of flaws which eventually reach a critical point.

Originally Posted by Rose

I would much rather admit to a flaw in designing my robot that caused him to commit harmful acts, then to say I intentionally designed it in a manner I knew would result in negative actions.

I do not think you are capable of designing a robot to self-program; therefore you are speaking hypothetically. If you give your theoretical robot the freedom to self-program, then you have to expect anything that it is capable of self-programming.

Originally Posted by Rose

Under naturalism, both nature and nurture are the determining factors in how we act. Our genetic make-up "Nature" coupled with the environment we are raised in "Nurture", governs how we perceive and react to the world around us. For example, if someone has a strong outgoing nature and they are indoctrinated with a religious mindset from the time of their youth, chances are that child is going to grow up and forcefully preach the doctrines of his religion, whereas a child with a demure and reclusive personality would react very differently given the same environment and circumstances. It's all about the push and pull between nature and nurture.

I was lucky to be born with a non-violent nature ...

It is good you have been born with nature that has turned out to be less violent than others. Also, you have been nurtured in the correct way and that can make a large difference. If you had been nurtured differently, then you might not be so passive as you are now. Consider what might have been if Jesus had not been nurtured by his mother or God; the situation could be different now.

The reprobate nations which God destroyed did not nurture their children correctly. You hold God to account instead of the reprobates. Those reprobates did not nurture their children in the correct way, but nurtured them to do exactly the same as the parents.

If we heed the lessons contained in the Bible, we should see that the Bible is actually nurturing us not to do evil, but to do good. We should all learn from other people's mistakes which the Bible tells us about. We should not learn to commit the same mistakes as those shown in the Bible of committing them.

So, which is worse ... admitting to flawed workmanship, or intentionality in designing sinful creatures that delight in causing harm to each other?

Hello Rose
If God made flawed designs, then I would not have reason to trust God's design of anything. We know man's design is often flawed. I expect you travel on planes with flaws in them. Planes can crash because of time and chance we call accidents; they also crash because of flaws which eventually reach a critical point.

Hello David

So, I guess if you think that your god's designs are not flawed, then you must believe he intentionally created humans with the desire to inflict harm.

Originally Posted by David M

I do not think you are capable of designing a robot to self-program; therefore you are speaking hypothetically. If you give your theoretical robot the freedom to self-program, then you have to expect anything that it is capable of self-programming.

The god who you believe created the universe, should be capable of anything ... What is the point of designing a product that turns bad 100% of the time?

Originally Posted by David M

It is good you have been born with nature that has turned out to be less violent than others. Also, you have been nurtured in the correct way and that can make a large difference. If you had been nurtured differently, then you might not be so passive as you are now. Consider what might have been if Jesus had not been nurtured by his mother or God; the situation could be different now.

I don't see how you can compare Jesus whom the Bible says was divinely conceived, with humans who are naturally conceived. Supposedly god chose Mary to be the mother of Jesus, because he knew she would raise him correctly.

Originally Posted by David M

The reprobate nations which God destroyed did not nurture their children correctly. You hold God to account instead of the reprobates. Those reprobates did not nurture their children in the correct way, but nurtured them to do exactly the same as the parents.

If we heed the lessons contained in the Bible, we should see that the Bible is actually nurturing us not to do evil, but to do good. We should all learn from other people's mistakes which the Bible tells us about. We should not learn to commit the same mistakes as those shown in the Bible of committing them.

All the best
David

How can you say that the Bible nurtures people not to do evil? When it is filled with laws that command and condone human rights violations ... especially against women!

Hello David
So, I guess if you think that your god's designs are not flawed, then you must believe he intentionally created humans with the desire to inflict harm.

Yes Rose, but note that you are only picking out one aspect. You make it sound like we have all been programmed to do harm to others. That is not the case. Why is it that you are not programmed to harm others? But, have you ever harmed another person?

Originally Posted by Rose

The god who you believe created the universe, capable of anything ... What is the point of designing a product that turns bad 100% of the time?

You are using the word "bad" when the word "failure" or "not perfect" is equally appropriate. A person who has sinned in a minor way, cannot be compared to someone who deliberately sins constantly. By your definition, I must call you a "bad" person. Do you consider yourself "bad"?

Originally Posted by Rose

I don't see how you can compare Jesus whom the Bible says was divinely conceived, with humans who are naturally conceived. Supposedly god chose Mary to be the mother of Jesus, because he knew she would raise him correctly.

Divinely conceived by God's ability/power; yes. The fertilized egg in Mary was not made of any other substance than what is found in any other fertilized egg. Jesus was 100% human as Adam was. The only difference we might know of now is in the DNA of Jesus. Unless there is something in the make up of molecules and of atoms that remains undiscovered, then what I say is based on our present knowledge.

Originally Posted by Rose

How can you say that the Bible nurtures people not to do evil? When it is filled with laws that command and condone human rights violations ... especially against women!

OK Rose, begin by presenting one law in the Bible that commands violation against women and I will discuss it.

In answering the first few questions, the answer lies in God designing humans to have choice and make their own decisions. In so doing, humans have a choice to please self or serve others. A person starts of life with blank canvass, and their life is the picture they paint on the canvass. Some draw pictures in which their life is all good, and others paint pictures which show their lives are all bad. Everyone else fits between the extremes of totally good and totally bad.

When everything is analyzed, it comes down to people's motives. The biggest failing of man, is selfishness. Pride and greed are closely associated. This is what was behind the story of Eve. It was her selfishness to please her own desire that was the reason to eat of the forbidden fruit. No-one else was to blame but Eve. God had given a simple commandment; "do not ..." and Eve chose to disobey God and rebel.

God had planned for the inevitable. Was the inevitable for everyone? No! Jesus proved that it was not inevitable for everyone.

Sadly, we are living in a world where almost everyone, when "push comes to shove" (so to speak), people will show there true colors, when selfish pride and greed steps in. You only have to see how people's characters change when it comes to food and petrol shortages and how in their greed to be first in the queue and how fights break out, the bad side to people's nature comes out. Selfish pride and greed can be overcome, but it takes a deliberate effort (willpower) to overcome it. Jesus was not shielded from temptation, but he overcame temptation on every occasion. That is what God expects us to do. If that is not what you want to do, or if that is not your desire, then why would God want to select you, when he has others to select from?

It is not good that society is corrupt and evil. God is responsible for creating humans who are also responsible for their actions. The call from God is to come out of the world that is corrupt. The call is to be separate and come out of the "world".

You know these lessons, but now choose to ignore them. You want to ignore them and concentrate on presenting the blackest picture of God you can. The blame will always rest on humans for disobeying.

Originally Posted by Rose
Hello David
So, I guess if you think that your god's designs are not flawed, then you must believe he intentionally created humans with the desire to inflict harm.

Hello Rose
Yes Rose, but note that you are only picking out one aspect. You make it sound like we have all been programmed to do harm to others. That is not the case. Why is it that you are not programmed to harm others? But, have you ever harmed another person?

Good morning David

What I said was that the Biblegod created humans with the desire to do harm to others. A deity with the power to create life could give his creation the desire to only do good and still give them free will.

And yes, I have harmed others, maybe not physically but emotionally ... I am not perfect, though I try very hard to not harm others.

Originally Posted by David M

You are using the word "bad" when the word "failure" or "not perfect" is equally appropriate. A person who has sinned in a minor way, cannot be compared to someone who deliberately sins constantly. By your definition, I must call you a "bad" person. Do you consider yourself "bad"?

Yes, I used the word bad, but failure or not perfect would work just as well. My point is that humans fail 100% of the time in one way or another ... that is not a good track record especially when the Bible says that its god does not like it when people sin, yet that is the way he made them.

Originally Posted by David M

Divinely conceived by God's ability/power; yes. The fertilized egg in Mary was not made of any other substance than what is found in any other fertilized egg. Jesus was 100% human as Adam was. The only difference we might know of now is in the DNA of Jesus. Unless there is something in the make up of molecules and of atoms that remains undiscovered, then what I say is based on our present knowledge.

The point is that the Bible makes it clear that Jesus was conceived differently than all other humans, which gave him the ability to live a sinless life ... no other human had that advantage.

Originally Posted by David M

How can you say that the Bible nurtures people not to do evil? When it is filled with laws that command and condone human rights violations ... especially against women!

OK Rose, begin by presenting one law in the Bible that commands violation against women and I will discuss it.

There are so many biblical laws that violate women's human rights that it's hard to know where to start. A good verse that covers two violations is:

Exo.21:7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.

The verse makes it clear that a father owns his daughter and is able to sell her. Secondly, it states that she is not allowed to "go out" as the men do. Both of those biblical laws totally violate the human rights of the woman being sold and bought.

In answering the first few questions, the answer lies in God designing humans to have choice and make their own decisions. In so doing, humans have a choice to please self or serve others. A person starts of life with blank canvass, and their life is the picture they paint on the canvass. Some draw pictures in which their life is all good, and others paint pictures which show their lives are all bad. Everyone else fits between the extremes of totally good and totally bad.

When everything is analyzed, it comes down to people's motives. The biggest failing of man, is selfishness. Pride and greed are closely associated. This is what was behind the story of Eve. It was her selfishness to please her own desire that was the reason to eat of the forbidden fruit. No-one else was to blame but Eve. God had given a simple commandment; "do not ..." and Eve chose to disobey God and rebel.

God had planned for the inevitable. Was the inevitable for everyone? No! Jesus proved that it was not inevitable for everyone.

Sadly, we are living in a world where almost everyone, when "push comes to shove" (so to speak), people will show there true colors, when selfish pride and greed steps in. You only have to see how people's characters change when it comes to food and petrol shortages and how in their greed to be first in the queue and how fights break out, the bad side to people's nature comes out. Selfish pride and greed can be overcome, but it takes a deliberate effort (willpower) to overcome it. Jesus was not shielded from temptation, but he overcame temptation on every occasion. That is what God expects us to do. If that is not what you want to do, or if that is not your desire, then why would God want to select you, when he has others to select from?

It is not good that society is corrupt and evil. God is responsible for creating humans who are also responsible for their actions. The call from God is to come out of the world that is corrupt. The call is to be separate and come out of the "world".

You know these lessons, but now choose to ignore them. You want to ignore them and concentrate on presenting the blackest picture of God you can. The blame will always rest on humans for disobeying.

All the best

David

Since you believe that god is responsible for creating humans, then he is also responsible for the desires he created humans to have. When people breed animals like dogs to be super aggressive to use in Dog Fights, then the person who bred the dog is responsible for its behavior. The dog has no choice but to be aggressive because of its hormones that determine its actions. Why do you think people castrate male animals ... to make them more docile. So, if humans can change the behavior of animals, how much more should a creator be able to control and change the behavior of his creations?

What I said was that the Biblegod created humans with the desire to do harm to others. A deity with the power to create life could give his creation the desire to only do good and still give them free will.

That might be easier said than done. I am cannot speak for God, I can only try to understand the way things are.
Humans have freewill and can use their strength for good or evil. I only know that in the Kingdom of God, there will be no sin and humans will be immortal. Exactly what changes God has introduced into an immortal body, I am unable to say. God will certainly have humans in his kingdom that will not sin and will be perfect. Therefore, the way you think God should have created us now, he will do in the future.

How else do you suggest God selects people for his Kingdom? Take the 1st commandment. If we were programmed not to harm others, is God going to judge according to the 1st commandment only? What makes us selfish? I think this ought to be the subject of a new thread in which this conversation can continue and not distract from the subject of this thread.

Originally Posted by Rose

And yes, I have harmed others, maybe not physically but emotionally ... I am not perfect, though I try very hard to not harm others.

That goes for me too.
We could discuss other situations where say someone kills someone else by accident and the relatives want justice and revenge. Maybe to get people who do not get angry and retaliate and cause harm to others, God must reduce the number of emotions, but if God does that, we would be less than God's image. One thing we are bad at is; judging righteously.

Originally Posted by Rose

Yes, I used the word bad, but failure or not perfect would work just as well. My point is that humans fail 100% of the time in one way or another ... that is not a good track record especially when the Bible says that its god does not like it when people sin, yet that is the way he made them.

There is a flip side and the fact that humans might not be perfect, but God can still love them. God wants his love reciprocated voluntarily; alas humans reject God and do not love him.

Originally Posted by Rose

The point is that the Bible makes it clear that Jesus was conceived differently than all other humans, which gave him the ability to live a sinless life ... no other human had that advantage.

That is where I think your reasoning is wrong. Jesus was conceived by God, but the actual conception, was no different in the biological makeup of the fertilized egg. Jesus was born human, exactly the same as most humans who are not born with physical handicaps. The mother of Jesus certainly had good characteristics that Jesus would have inherited from Mary. We know she was a woman of great humility. I can only thing God would input the male characteristics that Adam started off with. Genetic defects on the male side could have been eliminated. None of this can be proven and the situation cannot be repeated. The one difference with Jesus is that he must have been told from an early age that he was God's son. That is why at a very early age, he knew God was his father and he had to be about his father's business.

Originally Posted by Rose

There are so many biblical laws that violate women's human rights that it's hard to know where to start. A good verse that covers two violations is:

Exo.21:7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.

The verse makes it clear that a father owns his daughter and is able to sell her. Secondly, it states that she is not allowed to "go out" as the men do. Both of those biblical laws totally violate the human rights of the woman being sold and bought.

Since it is accepted that the woman is the weaker vessel, it can be seen that God is ensuring that women could get employment and her parents benefited in the process from the money received. In those days, could a woman survive on her own if she left her employment and become the target of evil men who had no regard for God, and had no regard to women's rights?

Since you believe that god is responsible for creating humans, then he is also responsible for the desires he created humans to have. When people breed animals like dogs to be super aggressive to use in Dog Fights, then the person who bred the dog is responsible for its behavior. The dog has no choice but to be aggressive because of its hormones that determine its actions. Why do you think people castrate male animals ... to make them more docile. So, if humans can change the behavior of animals, how much more should a creator be able to control and change the behavior of his creations?

If we only had halve of the emotions we have, we would not be made in the image of God. Since Jesus proved it possible to lead a perfect life and overcome selfish desires, which can result in acts of evil, then it should be possible for most people to be far better people than they actually are. God gave humans the ability of self control. If we do not apply self control, we cannot blame God. I think most of the problems in the world today are due to bad parentage and a lack of respect to authority which is God. Even now, we might know that we have bad habits, and we can change our habits. What is going to change a person's habits?