Thats a common theme..."moving the bar". So years ago after his dad called me a "worthless and weak American coach" and said "only I know how to produce a champion"....I responded with "oh yeah, your kid is going to only be a Div. 2 level player"

And now....years later...he is a D-1 player instead of D-2....oh snap, you got me!!

I give you the exact same challenge I gave andfor.....tell me ONE tournament of note he has ever won....just ONE. Or perhaps list all the top players who focused on tennis only for 12 years and were not winning everything in sight in juniors?

Of course he has zero shot at making money in tennis. Every top pro that is around his height was winning huge tournaments at age 15-16-17 and most were ranked well ATP by age 17.

This is comical, I love it. I do not know which of the remaining elite guys age 15-17 will make money in tennis....so many of them win futures and do well in jr slams at those ages. But the money makers will come from that group.

And DB is not in that group, simple as that. Win a challenger tomorrow? How about winning a future first!

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Was Isner winning huge tournaments at the age of 15, 16, and 17? I don't know, I didn't bother to extensively research his junior career but on cursory look it appears that he only got to the round of 64 at 17 at the OB and EH.

Besides all of that, everyone walks their own individual path.

I do not know which of the remaining elite guys age 15-17 will make money in tennis....

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Of course you don't know that. People paid a lot better with a lot more tennis cache don't pretend to be able to predict what you pretend to be able to predict.

I remember the crazy stuff you were saying about how your daughter would crush the #1 twelve year old girl a few months ago ...now a few low level tournaments later and she is losing to "pushers" and "hacks", maybe reality has started to set in for you.

You are the one with the double speak....make up your mind....juniors do not matter, now they do, then they do not.

As far as 'hoping you fail'.....I said what I meant, that I wish DB success in life. That success though will not come from money making tennis, it will come from something else.

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Let me be clear here it is , it is what "I have always" said "Playing the jrs and looking to dominate them as a goal is a waiste of time and money " Or " looking to dominating the jrs is a waiste "

Now playing them from a business stand point high ranking the companys take care of you , not having to pay for clothing , shoes or rackets or strings since he was 12 is just smart business and one of the by products is you are building in a competitive hunger.

Its not really a different style, although it is more offensive minded, its more of a different speed. At the top men's level you have to have that rare tennis mind that can process the game at a speed we can not imagine.

I wish everyone could sit court side at a top 18s tournament, then immediately transport to a match between 2 top 20 guys. Then the epic difference is the speed at which the game moves would be evident.

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where you get this stuff is really neat and delusional, I have stood on the same court as he hit with Nishikori and Harrison and was invited back everyday by both of them for 2 hr hits for 2 weeks strait at IMG and this crazy speed your talking about either does not exist because when they are playing baseline games and he is winning as many as they were , you have 2 choices 1. these top pros come out and lower their level getting ready for the Aussie open 2. DB has this crazy speed and hangs real well against these top players and keeps getting invited back OR

3. this crazy speed really exists only where those kids in far off countries you talk about are training at a level that would also blow our minds .

4 quit making up this stuff your really proving me right about college educated people and its not fair to everyone else on here who is college educated and has common sense !!

You have no idea whether this boy will make it as a MM pro tennis player or not.

With every success this kid has you keep moving the bar.

He could win a challenger tournament tomorrow and you'd still say that it wasn't a good enough indication of top 50 potential....blah blah blah....

None of us know how far DB will go, but what we do know is he has already gone further than you have predicted, he is talented, he has the physical stature to be a great player (it's not like he's 5 foot 6 and talking about being a pro tennis player), and he and his family are dedicated to his success.

All we can do is wish him well and offer our advice and support.

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Thanx for your encouragement of a young American trying to rise up for our country as for TCF he will always be a hater and he is entitled to that !

where you get this stuff is really neat and delusional, I have stood on the same court as he hit with Nishikori and Harrison and was invited back everyday by both of them for 2 hr hits for 2 weeks strait at IMG and this crazy speed your talking about either does not exist because when they are playing baseline games and he is winning as many as they were , you have 2 choices 1. these top pros come out and lower their level getting ready for the Aussie open 2. DB has this crazy speed and hangs real well against these top players and keeps getting invited back OR

3. this crazy speed really exists only where those kids in far off countries you talk about are training at a level that would also blow our minds .

4 quit making up this stuff your really proving me right about college educated people and its not fair to everyone else on here who is college educated and has common sense !!

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TCF
I think I want to see your college transcripts cause you sound like the guy in the White House says he created 6 million jobs when it is more like 1million and that may be wrong and less , You know he wont show his transcripts for good reason .

You have no idea whether this boy will make it as a MM pro tennis player or not.

With every success this kid has you keep moving the bar.

He could win a challenger tournament tomorrow and you'd still say that it wasn't a good enough indication of top 50 potential....blah blah blah....

None of us know how far DB will go, but what we do know is he has already gone further than you have predicted, he is talented, he has the physical stature to be a great player (it's not like he's 5 foot 6 and talking about being a pro tennis player), and he and his family are dedicated to his success.

All we can do is wish him well and offer our advice and support.

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Soianka I was shocked I actually went through the top 10 ITF players to see who won all these high level tourneys that prove you can be successful on the tour and there are 4 players on there that have turned pro that I know of and they haven't won a tourney this year and the ones they did win were these grade 4's which is not a high level , so TCF should get a hold of them and tell them to quit and go to college !! HAHA

Soianka I was shocked I actually went through the top 10 ITF players to see who won all these high level tourneys that prove you can be successful on the tour and there are 4 players on there that have turned pro that I know of and they haven't won a tourney this year and the ones they did win were these grade 4's which is not a high level , so TCF should get a hold of them and tell them to quit and go to college !! HAHA

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Realistically speaking some of them probably are not pro potential. Not enough talent. Like some many times said most of the top ITF won't become money makers.

What's the point of keeping this going thread after thread, week after week, year after year? TCF, #1Coach - YOU GUYS AREN'T GOING TO AGREE! Period. Why not take all the hours you spend arguing about this and put it towards something productive. It's like you're children who have to get the last word in. Just let the other do their thing and time will play it out. You're certainly not helping each other, that's for sure. Insane waste of time!

What's the point of keeping this going thread after thread, week after week, year after year? TCF, #1Coach - YOU GUYS AREN'T GOING TO AGREE! Period. Why not take all the hours you spend arguing about this and put it towards something productive. It's like you're children who have to get the last word in. Just let the other do their thing and time will play it out. You're certainly not helping each other, that's for sure. Insane waste of time!

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I do not think so.

TFC is just doing same to #1C as Toni did to Rafa.

Toni kept and kept moving the bar, driving Rafa grazy.

Its called sparring.

All those requests to turn this forum solely to a yes men club...:cry:

What's the point of keeping this going thread after thread, week after week, year after year? TCF, #1Coach - YOU GUYS AREN'T GOING TO AGREE! Period. Why not take all the hours you spend arguing about this and put it towards something productive. It's like you're children who have to get the last word in. Just let the other do their thing and time will play it out. You're certainly not helping each other, that's for sure. Insane waste of time!

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Sorry if that is how you feel , also is we have bummed you out sorry but I like the debate it has 2 philosophy that are opposite of each other and I believe for those dealing with young players they can come here and have the choice of hearing 2 different so-called coaches say what works to get your player with Pro-tential or get them with in line for a D1 ride

So far I have completed 1 of those explained and posted video over the years how to build a successful player "top recruit",, have never looked at Jr results as and indicator of the journey or considered those have say so on weather you can become a pro .

TCf has shown no video , give many reasons why he knows what it takes , and has been wrong more then half the time about what were capable of , also he has shown no proof of any player he has developed .

So I believe its healthy and informative for those on here to hear what works and what don't and let them decide what path to take .

All those requests to turn this forum solely to a yes men club...:cry:

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You are correct I hear TCF's teaching theory's and has us go harder at what we believe and therefore we get better so I believe he and his philosophy's can be very helpful to your game and success if you do the opposite at a high level , so for me personally I hope he keeps pointing out how we will fail but I am sure Borna isnt happy with him <haha

TCf has shown no video , give many reasons why he knows what it takes , and has been wrong more then half the time about what were capable of , also he has shown no proof of any player he has developed .

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OK.

Taking a positive rather than a negative approach, what type of video would tend to support or detract from any training philosophy for pro/college prospects that has been discussed here. Maybe some poster can find what it is you are looking for if you can provide some details. Personally, I don't think any such video exists, but I stand to be proven wrong.

If it is really about the training philosophy and not about you, I look forward to the answers.

make that two bigtime losses for what looked like a team that could take down a second national championship this year

totally crummy luck for her - awesome determined grinder, you could always tell that she carried herself with the attitude that she was never going to let herself lose a close match, and she rarely did

hopefully if she applies that same attitude to her rehab she gets back out there some day - best of luck to her

major league pitchers have come back to close to top form after right?

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Yes, Tommy John for instance. While no surgery is ever routine, there are very good odds she could come back as strong as before. Right now, there are 50 current major leauge pitchers who have had the surgery.

Poster A says that based on the player's results to date and the player's reputed academic abilities, he projects that college would be the best option for the player.

Poster B says he is the number 1 coach and he knows best that the player projects to be a successful pro, and that going straight to the pros is the best option for the player.

Poster C (you) says "oh stop it" to Poster A and that Poster A is moving the bar.

There seems to be something wrong with this picture

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You seem confused, as usual.

TCF, just a few short months ago, was mocking the dad and saying that the boy would not be recruited at top Division I schools ...no top DI coaches could possibly want DB etc, etc.

A few months before that, TCF said the boy was definitely not DI material at all and would be lucky to play DII tennis.

Also TCF told us how his 7 year old would dominate 12 year old tennis and beat the #1 twelve year old; now the girl (not surprisingly) has been losing at low level tournaments to people much lower ranked than #1.

Never is there any humility or admission that perhaps these bold predictions of his were wrong and perhaps he is not able to predict these things with any accuracy.

TCF, just a few short months ago, was mocking the dad and saying that the boy would not be recruited at top Division I schools ...no top DI coaches could possibly want DB etc, etc.

A few months before that, TCF said the boy was definitely not DI material at all and would be lucky to play DII tennis.

Also TCF told us how his 7 year old would dominate 12 year old tennis and beat the #1 twelve year old; now the girl (not surprisingly) has been losing at low level tournaments to people much lower ranked than #1.

Never is there any humility or admission that perhaps these bold predictions of his were wrong and perhaps he is not able to predict these things with any accuracy.

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A "few short months ago", he said the boy wouldn't get recruited at a D1? You must read these boards a lot more carefully than me, because I think he and mikej and everyone else who has commented on this has said the exact opposite of what you are foisting as fact. I do remember a post or two about D1 coaches avoiding kids of "special parents". Don't know whether that was mikej or TCF. Anyway, I don't think anyone on the board a few months ago said the player did not have D1 talent.

A "few months before that".....I guess we're at about 6 months total, now......he said the player was D2 material? OK, I'm gonna be less polite this time and call BS on that. Yup, it's challenge.

His daughter has nothing more to do with this than your daughter. This is what is boils down to. There are basically three camps on the board regarding the player.

Camp 1: Those who project, according to standards that have been exhaustively stated here, that the player will not make it as a successful pro, and that he should go to college.

Camp 2: Those who project that what is necessary for the player to have a chance to be a successful pro is new/additional coaching input

Camp 3: Those who project him right now with his current coach as a successful pro

I fall into Camp 2.

Do you have any substantive input besides calling people confused and saying they lack enough humility to suit your personal tastes? Let's hear it.

A "few short months ago", he said the boy wouldn't get recruited at a D1? You must read these boards a lot more carefully than me, because I think he and mikej and everyone else who has commented on this has said the exact opposite of what you are foisting as fact.

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Nope. Wrong again.

A "few short months ago" TCF and his sidekick were mocking the dad's claim of getting email from top DI coaches and saying the boy would not be recruited at top DI schools.

Camp 3: Those who project him right now with his current coach as a successful pro

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Sorry, Mr. Hyberbole, but I seriously doubt there is anyone here who thinks the boy is currently a successful pro player.

I fall into the camp that is sick of TCF posting nasty **** about other people's children and also pretending he has a crystal ball to predict the future...it's tedious and silly.

So far, he has been wrong about the kid on multiple occasions and he was also clearly wrong in stating his daughter would crush the top ranked twelve year old in the US.

A "few short months ago" TCF and his sidekick were mocking the dad's claim of getting email from top DI coaches and saying the boy would not be recruited at top DI schools.

Sorry, Mr. Hyberbole, but I seriously doubt there is anyone here who thinks the boy is currently a successful pro player.

I fall into the camp that is sick of TCF posting nasty **** about other people's children and also pretending he has a crystal ball to predict the future.

So far, he has been wrong about the kid on multiple occasions and he was also clearly wrong in stating his daughter would crush the number one girl's twelve year old.

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Mr. Hyperbole? The surest indication that someone is wrong on the facts is when that person starts with the name calling.

I never said anyone thinks the kid is "currently a successful pro player". I said they "project" it. It's only two posts back. You can check it, but no need to say sorry.

Look, no one is going to send you drafts of their posts to approve in advance. Sports message boards are filled with projections about how young athletes will turn out in college or the pros. Some of these projections are right, some are wrong. What is your projection?

What does his daughter have to do with this any more than your daughter. To assess the credibility of your posts do we need to hear about your daughter's junior record? Because I fall into Camp 2 above do I need to support my opinion by talking about my kids' sports results?

A "few short months ago", he said the boy wouldn't get recruited at a D1? You must read these boards a lot more carefully than me, because I think he and mikej and everyone else who has commented on this has said the exact opposite of what you are foisting as fact. I do remember a post or two about D1 coaches avoiding kids of "special parents". Don't know whether that was mikej or TCF. Anyway, I don't think anyone on the board a few months ago said the player did not have D1 talent.

A "few months before that".....I guess we're at about 6 months total, now......he said the player was D2 material? OK, I'm gonna be less polite this time and call BS on that. Yup, it's challenge.

His daughter has nothing more to do with this than your daughter. This is what is boils down to. There are basically three camps on the board regarding the player.

Camp 1: Those who project, according to standards that have been exhaustively stated here, that the player will not make it as a successful pro, and that he should go to college.

Camp 2: Those who project that what is necessary for the player to have a chance to be a successful pro is new/additional coaching input

Camp 3: Those who project him right now with his current coach as a successful pro

I fall into Camp 2.

Do you have any substantive input besides calling people confused and saying they lack enough humility to suit your personal tastes? Let's hear it.

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misterbill I enjoy coming on here for a few reasons 1 enertainment 2 information 3 debate to stir more info ,,,,No let me ask you a question about camp 2 with the progress we have had with tennis which is a winning % , I believe the ratio is 3 or 4 to 1 win loss record which were content with right now at 16 please in detail explain why would need someone else in the camp and what would thier part be ?

misterbill I enjoy coming on here for a few reasons 1 enertainment 2 information 3 debate to stir more info ,,,,No let me ask you a question about camp 2 with the progress we have had with tennis which is a winning % , I believe the ratio is 3 or 4 to 1 win loss record which were content with right now at 16 please in detail explain why would need someone else in the camp and what would thier part be ?

I am courius for your answer .

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My response would include observations about you that may be construed to be not fully positive. Don't want to do that here. Want to try to stay more positive here...........although sometimes the climate here just wears us all down, doesn't it.

soianka....your history is pretty sketchy so we take your posts with a grain of salt. BB has said some awful things to posters, such as streetwalker comments, yet you have never once said a word about it. You seem for whatever reason to overlook all the negative things he has said and wait to pounce on the rest of us.

Your posts today are simply wrong. Neither mikej or I said he was not D-1 material. We said that the coaches of the top 5 tennis schools have their pick of guys around the world. We asked why they would spend one of their rare and precious scholarships on a player whose dad seems in control and has posted for years that college tennis is worthless and counter productive to a pro career.

This is common sense stuff that you are choosing to twist completely. If you were the coach of a program that could pick almost any guy in the world, would you chase a kid whose has no interest in college tennis?

The fact remains, BB dishes as well or more than he gets back. I admitted he was a D-1 level player and not D-2. The D-2 comments were when his dad was teasing us other coaches and made 5 years ago, not months ago.

As far as "nasty and negative".....nothing of the sort. BB and I have one simple disagreement.....whether great leaps in tennis improvement are possible after 12 years of dedicated tennis training, or whether they are not.

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My history is sketchy?

LOL TCF. What sort of history does one need to post on a publically accessible message board.

Should I make up a story about being a medical resident like Mike J or should I make up one about being a top tennis coach like yourself ? [just kidding...you may or may not be legit...it doesn't really matter either way...it's a message board]

As for BB's comments, I find some of them offensive and wrong especially the political stuff.

Certainly, I do not condone talking badly about a little girl (even a possibly imaginary one).

However, you have baited this poor fellow with all sorts of really unnecessarily harsh comments and it gets old and tedious and ridiculous.

As for you and Mike J, I didn't misrepresent the tenor of what you both said, which was that you didn't believe top D1 coaches wanted to recruit the boy. That doesn't seem to be your tune today.

I'm sure you will have a slightly different tune when the boy posts some more good results, but I doubt you will ever admit the truth.
Namely, you have no special powers of prognostication that allow you to definitively determine whether or not this kid will have a successful pro tennis career.

Sure I do, and so do you if you choose to. Do miracles happen? Yup. But everyday we play the odds in life from the information we are able to gather.

When I look at every single top pro his height and what they won at his age, I get information. When a study is done about what 93% of top 100 pros won at his age, I get information. When I observe junior tennis for 20 plus years and talk to coaches with decades more experience....and they all conclude that ceilings are reached after 10-12 years of tennis focus, I get information.

This is not simply guessing. Its tennis history. There are no cases we can find in tennis history of a guy being fully tennis dedicated from age 5 for 10-12 years, growing at a steady pace, and not reaching his approximate ceiling after those 12 years.

Top 75 pros do not surprise anyone once they train for 10-12 years. Some may have very late growth spurts which delays their maturation, others like Roanic may not be fully into tennis until a later age....but we can not find ANY surprises in players that went fully into tennis as kids when we go back over the current top pros.

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TCF a question out of the current top 10 ITF players right now which ones have a chance of being top money makers ?

This is not simply guessing. Its tennis history. There are no cases we can find in tennis history of a guy being fully tennis dedicated from age 5 for 10-12 years, growing at a steady pace, and not reaching his approximate ceiling after those 12 years.

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When you make obviously ridiculous statements like this you lose all credibility. At some point it does not matter what good observations you may have because no one can take anything you say seriously.

The top ranked 17 year old in the world is ATP #553. No one thinks the current 17 year olds have reached their “approximate ceiling”. Plenty of them have been playing for 12 years and are tall.

TCF, while I agree with most of what you say regarding the odds of a money making pro, are we sure DB has learned everything needed to make that next jump. I have seen him play once and he needs much more development in his game to win consistently in the pros. First, he needs a much bigger forehand and serve. He plays as if he is 5'10" instead of of 6'5". Too much grinding for a big guy. Second, needs to learn patience and a rotational rally ball. Point construction in order to get to your weapons wins in pro tennis. Learn when to play offense and defense correctly. Hint, watch Sam Querrey closely.

LOL TCF. What sort of history does one need to post on a publically accessible message board.

Should I make up a story about being a medical resident like Mike J or should I make up one about being a top tennis coach like yourself ? [just kidding...you may or may not be legit...it doesn't really matter either way...it's a message board]

As for BB's comments, I find some of them offensive and wrong especially the political stuff.

Certainly, I do not condone talking badly about a little girl (even a possibly imaginary one).

However, you have baited this poor fellow with all sorts of really unnecessarily harsh comments and it gets old and tedious and ridiculous.

As for you and Mike J, I didn't misrepresent the tenor of what you both said, which was that you didn't believe top D1 coaches wanted to recruit the boy. That doesn't seem to be your tune today.

I'm sure you will have a slightly different tune when the boy posts some more good results, but I doubt you will ever admit the truth.
Namely, you have no special powers of prognostication that allow you to definitively determine whether or not this kid will have a successful pro tennis career.

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Soianka you are not gonna get anywhere , I just sit back and laugh , last year at the Zoo a friend came up to me , I call him G and he said hey did you notice something ? and I said no what ? H e said I have counted 11 D1 coaches here watching your boy play his match and he had 9 at his last match this is crazy he said most players are hoping to have 2 or 3 coaches show up you have 11 man thats crazy !

My point is the proof is in the pudding , TCF is right is DB gonna be a money making pro according to his statistic and the the way he sees it the answer NO !

But then again he said according to the way were doing things we would never beat the top players in the nation we have always been in the to 3 Nationally in each age group except the 16's we skipped that age group.

So thanks for the defense but don't spend to much time on a guy that judges things he has never seen with his own eyes yet has a strong grip on what is there that is sketchy !!!

This guy did a study and found that 93 out of the top 100 players had either been ranked top 5 ITF, or won a jr slam, or an Orange Bowl, or won a euro championship.

It was 5 years ago and things have changed and will continue to change....but the fact is we can find commonalities between almost all the top 100 guys and their success at younger ages.

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so if top 5 ITF is one of the criteria's we could be there within the next 6 month "if" we are to waist the money and chase the points cause we have played someone 6 itf and destroyed him at the OB the level was not as high as you claim , also like I said after playing the OB had we started last year playing ITF at a busy rate we would be top 5 no doubt . So if thats it were on target thanx !

TCF, while I agree with most of what you say regarding the odds of a money making pro, are we sure DB has learned everything needed to make that next jump. I have seen him play once and he needs much more development in his game to win consistently in the pros. First, he needs a much bigger forehand and serve. He plays as if he is 5'10" instead of of 6'5". Too much grinding for a big guy. Second, needs to learn patience and a rotational rally ball. Point construction in order to get to your weapons wins in pro tennis. Learn when to play offense and defense correctly. Hint, watch Sam Querrey closely.

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you have seen him play once? well your not as good as tcf he has never seen him yet he is and expert on that which he has not seen , but thankfully this is not a court of law and we were looking to you as witnesses that were giving up lots of evidence for your claims . just my thought