OK you two....I'm thinking that since the subject material in this thread has gone around and around (and around) more times than a Maytag washing machine, feel free to start a new topic in this area as you see fit.

I know that Misha and ProfWag had a really good run going a week or two ago and I wanted to be able to get into that one but my real life schedule didn't allow for the time needed to do that.

SydneyPSIder wrote: Or the trillion trillion to one odds of NORAD exercises being conducted the same day with the same scenario?

Ya' know, I would love to enter into another good debate on this subject, but when information is posted that is completely false, I find that I spend more time researching false leads than actual facts of the subject.For just one example, the odds were not a "trillion trillion to one." NORAD exercises are an annual occurance that last approximately a week. That makes the odds about 1 in 52. Also, another error in the same sentence, it was not the same scenario. They had practiced a similar scenario in years past, but that was not the case that day.So, if you would like to have a real debate, then post factual information with sources, otherwise, I'm afraid I'll have to move on to other things.

SydneyPSIder wrote:Care to explain the strange collapse of WTC7 with a timed countdown now? Or the fact no skyscraper in history has collapsed spectacularly in its own footprint at freefall speed from an impact or a fire before?

While I can't come up for an explanation of the "timed countdown" other than dialog being taken out of context during a state of total confusion and hysteria, I can give an explanation for the fact that no skyscraper in history has collapsed in that manner before. One reason could be that no skyscraper had ever been hit by two large jets, loaded with fuel, like that before. Now if you want to go flying a few big assed planes into some skyscrapers to determine the answer, that ain't gonna happen. Hence we go around and around looking for answers to this question and many more associated with the events of that day.

SydneyPSIder wrote:Or the trillion trillion to one odds of NORAD exercises being conducted the same day with the same scenario?

I believe that there was some hint that this was coming or being planned. Probably nothing more than US intelligence agencies picking up bits and pieces of related intel with no particular details.

SydneyPSIder wrote:Or the fact that the flights were three quarters empty at peak commute time in a month when average flights were 71% full?

I've been on flights from the west coast to the east coast that were VERY empty. It's not uncommon. If those planes don't fly to the designated airport, then the whole flight schedule can go down the dumper for the day. I've never found Newark Airport for example to be more crowded early in the morning. Arriving at 8 or 9 am used to be my preferred time as things moved rather well and organized. At least from my experience.

No dialog out of context. No hysteria. There is no possible explanation other than a controlled demolition. Each skyscraper was only hit with one big assed jet each, and they had been designed to withstand the force of a fully fueled 707 which is about the same size. The designer is on record on video actually talking about the design, saying a jet strike woudl be like a mosquito hitting a flyscreen, it will only make a hole in one area. Planes have flown into skyscrapers accidentally before, and many skyscrapers have had more devastating fires before without collapsing. Avgas is basically kero and only burns at a few hundred degrees F -- it takes at least 1500 deg F to melt steel, and it would have to be applied directly to the steel for a long time -- there were no materials of any bulk to apply that sort of heat to steel structural beams in that building. Further, the asbestos coating was NOT taken off the way that was implied in the NIST report (and it would be another trillion trillion to one coincidence if it had been hit on the very floor where work was underway, just like the Pentagon got hit in the last unprotected area due to renovations).

Then there were the strange shots of the plane noses passing right through the WTC towers and coming out the other side, which is impossible -- plane noses are empty and are shrouded by lightweight aluminium, and crumple very easily -- the 'overshoot' effect seems to be a faked video artifact.

Still nothing on WTC7 though NP -- this was the 3rd 47 storey building in the proximity that collapsed 'by itself' with no impact and a bullshit fire started by nothing -- explosions in the basement though, according to eyewitness barry Jennings who died mysteriously at age 53 2 days before next cover-up NIST report. Only one guy died supposedly, a secret service agent who shouldn't have been there at all after evacuation who was probably trying to stoke up the fires and got hit by smoke inhalation --- in fact Jennings reported many dead people in the foyer beforehand.

Latest theory I hadn't heard before was the Flight 93 that went down in Shanksville PA was meant to hit WTC7 which was prewired with the same explosives. It's possible passengers from at least 2 other flights, if not 3, had all been herded into this flight as part of the game plan, to finally strike WTC7. The DNA would have been everywhere. The planes went a long way off route, were not intercepted, crossed several radar dead zones where they turned their transponders off to the second, possibly landed and were disembarked only to be herded onto the last death flight. however with the last flight 93 full of passengers being told they were being ferried back to NYC toland, they may have gotten suspicious and seized control of the plane. it was finally shot down by a USAF jet over PA scattering luggage and body parts over several miles of terrain. All done while NORAD were standing down with at least 18 'bogus' planes on FAA radar as part of an 'exercise' strangely timed on the same day.

As for the 71% full flights going east-west that morning, well, that's just the stat, I didn't invent it.

And as for the FBI agents picking up bits and pieces, well they were told by their bosses to drop it, according to their accounts. FBI clearly doesn't take homeland security threats seriously? Nothing else to do except eat doughnuts I guess...

That is all.

Last edited by SydneyPSIder on 24 Sep 2012, 23:27, edited 1 time in total.

SydneyPSIder wrote: Or the trillion trillion to one odds of NORAD exercises being conducted the same day with the same scenario?

Ya' know, I would love to enter into another good debate on this subject, but when information is posted that is completely false, I find that I spend more time researching false leads than actual facts of the subject.For just one example, the odds were not a "trillion trillion to one." NORAD exercises are an annual occurance that last approximately a week. That makes the odds about 1 in 52. Also, another error in the same sentence, it was not the same scenario. They had practiced a similar scenario in years past, but that was not the case that day.So, if you would like to have a real debate, then post factual information with sources, otherwise, I'm afraid I'll have to move on to other things.

??? see ya

fundamentally, there is no debate. you are supporting a hollywood production and calling it a debate. let's debate whether star wars really happened or was just a movie.

amazing how osama bin laden knew all about how the stand down would work from his cave...

Last edited by SydneyPSIder on 24 Sep 2012, 23:16, edited 1 time in total.

To the casual readers out there who may be serious about forming an opinion on 9/11, please note that the stories/pictures of the fires Sydney posted is deceptive. Those building references cannot in any way, shape, or form, be considered as evidence for how the WTC buildings fell. Each and every building is built differently and they absolutely cannot be compared to the WTCs (even when not considering that planes had an impact).

No hysteria? OMG Syd, there is NO WAY in hell that you can tell me that between of 8:46am on Sept. 11, 2001 and 5:21pm that same day that the entire tri-state area of NY, NJ and CONN (and because of Shanksville, let's throw PA in the mix) had one minute of normalcy. Ground Zero was (for the lack of a better word) a disaster area beyond our wildest imaginations. I was in awe of anyone and everyone who was directly and indirectly associated with the horrid events of that day. If you don't believe that panic, hysteria and trauma affected everyone in the area and beyond, then I don't know what to say anymore.

SydneyPSIder wrote:There is no possible explanation other than a controlled demolition. Each skyscraper was only hit with one big assed jet each, and they had been designed to withstand the force of a fully fueled 707 which is about the same size. The designer is on record on video actually talking about the design, saying a jet strike woudl be like a mosquito hitting a flyscreen, it will only make a hole in one area.

SydneyPSIder wrote:Planes have flown into skyscrapers accidentally before, and many skyscrapers have had more devastating fires before without collapsing.

You are correct on both points here. As a matter of fact, when I first heard on the radio that the Twin Towers were "hit by a plane", the first thing that I thought to myself was... "for cryin' out loud, not another one".

Small planes have clipped buildings in NY before and a few even hit them pretty good in the past. I was instructed to turn on my TV by the radio announcer as she said that words could not really describe this situation properly. I flipped on the TV and looked for a local broadcast and was sort of taken back by what I was actually seeing. Let's just say that I was sort of stuck for a few moments in WTF??? mode. No, let's make that WTF???????????????????? mode. I called a friend in Detroit and within moments I watched the second plane hit the other tower.

Being as close to the area as I was, if you don't think that I wasn't in a TOTAL state of panic, you're dead wrong. Fighter jets flew over my house, my phone went dead and the TV went out with only FOX transmitting the events live from a mobile unit that happened to be in the area. I wasn't right there but I was in a state of panic as my daughter may have been in that building and her father was on a flight out of Newark that morning. I couldn't reach anyone and of course the news reporters on the ground could only speculate and film flames and smoke billowing out of the towers. The hits just kept on coming. The Pentagon, Shanksville, the towers collapsing. How on earth can you say that hysteria did not exist?

As to your second statement "and many skyscrapers have had more devastating fires before without collapsing", ProfWag covered this very well in his post.

NinjaPuppy wrote:Being as close to the area as I was, if you don't think that I wasn't in a TOTAL state of panic, you're dead wrong. Fighter jets flew over my house, my phone went dead and the TV went out with only FOX transmitting the events live from a mobile unit that happened to be in the area. I wasn't right there but I was in a state of panic as my daughter may have been in that building and her father was on a flight out of Newark that morning. I couldn't reach anyone and of course the news reporters on the ground could only speculate and film flames and smoke billowing out of the towers. The hits just kept on coming. The Pentagon, Shanksville, the towers collapsing. How on earth can you say that hysteria did not exist?

And if I may add to Ninja's accurate description, I worked for the Wing Commander at a NORAD missile base in Wyoming at the time. I don't know the exact time we went on high alert, but it was before the plane hit the Pentagon and I can assure you, it was extremely chaotic. I arrived at work at 7:15 local time and the base shut it's gates immediately behind me and there was no getting in or out. I can remember to this day the look of concern/panic on our Wing/CC's face. So to say there was no hysteria or panic that morning is about as wrong as wrong can be.

Yes, it was surreal. As if I was suddenly watching a move about WW3 and I was in that movie.

When the first tower began to pancake, I thought to myself that now it was going to fall and take out even more people. A structure of that size could conceivably damage countless other smaller, older buildings in it's path. But to my complete amazement, neither tower toppled to the extent that I assumed it could.

I do have personal photographs of the surrounding Ground Zero buildings and their damage. That was also something that can't be explained with words. I've seen highrise hotels practically cut in half by a hurricane (my best explanation, not actual fact as they weren't actually cut in half) so the hunks and sections of missing concrete from the surrounding WTC buildings was not something strange to me. The hotel that I speak of was destroyed by nothing more than extreme wind.... so two planes + their fuel + the impact of a solid object hitting them was feasible for one explanation.

Does anyone know what the world record is for the tallest building ever to be demolished? It's pretty easy to find, but I'll post it later if anyone is interested but too lazy to look it up. It's also interesting when you compare that record to how tall the 3 WTC buildings were...just sayin'''

No hysteria? OMG Syd, there is NO WAY in hell that you can tell me that between of 8:46am on Sept. 11, 2001 and 5:21pm that same day that the entire tri-state area of NY, NJ and CONN (and because of Shanksville, let's throw PA in the mix) had one minute of normalcy. Ground Zero was (for the lack of a better word) a disaster area beyond our wildest imaginations. I was in awe of anyone and everyone who was directly and indirectly associated with the horrid events of that day. If you don't believe that panic, hysteria and trauma affected everyone in the area and beyond, then I don't know what to say anymore.

SydneyPSIder wrote:There is no possible explanation other than a controlled demolition. Each skyscraper was only hit with one big assed jet each, and they had been designed to withstand the force of a fully fueled 707 which is about the same size. The designer is on record on video actually talking about the design, saying a jet strike woudl be like a mosquito hitting a flyscreen, it will only make a hole in one area.

SydneyPSIder wrote:Planes have flown into skyscrapers accidentally before, and many skyscrapers have had more devastating fires before without collapsing.

You are correct on both points here. As a matter of fact, when I first heard on the radio that the Twin Towers were "hit by a plane", the first thing that I thought to myself was... "for cryin' out loud, not another one".

Small planes have clipped buildings in NY before and a few even hit them pretty good in the past. I was instructed to turn on my TV by the radio announcer as she said that words could not really describe this situation properly. I flipped on the TV and looked for a local broadcast and was sort of taken back by what I was actually seeing. Let's just say that I was sort of stuck for a few moments in WTF??? mode. No, let's make that WTF???????????????????? mode. I called a friend in Detroit and within moments I watched the second plane hit the other tower.

Being as close to the area as I was, if you don't think that I wasn't in a TOTAL state of panic, you're dead wrong. Fighter jets flew over my house, my phone went dead and the TV went out with only FOX transmitting the events live from a mobile unit that happened to be in the area. I wasn't right there but I was in a state of panic as my daughter may have been in that building and her father was on a flight out of Newark that morning. I couldn't reach anyone and of course the news reporters on the ground could only speculate and film flames and smoke billowing out of the towers. The hits just kept on coming. The Pentagon, Shanksville, the towers collapsing. How on earth can you say that hysteria did not exist?

As to your second statement "and many skyscrapers have had more devastating fires before without collapsing", ProfWag covered this very well in his post.

I mean there was no hysteria about operatives deciding it was time to blow a building that was laced with explosives in a way that would take months to plan and implement. They knew what they had to do. They would have been a bit panicked about their SNAFU with that building though.

I don't think ProfWag has added one iota of insight at all on 'why the buildings fell' -- they were engineered not to. Can I refer you to the material at the 'Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth' website? Over 1700 professional architects and engineers who, somewhat surprisingly, think they know more about their field than profwag. I guess these brave and honest souls figure they can't all be killed for speaking out.

Does anyone know what the world record is for the tallest building ever to be demolished? It's pretty easy to find, but I'll post it later if anyone is interested but too lazy to look it up. It's also interesting when you compare that record to how tall the 3 WTC buildings were...just sayin'''

According to the Guinness Book of World Records, the tallest building demolished by explosives was the former J.L. Hudson Department Store in Detroit, Mich. It stood at 439 feet when it was imploded on Oct. 24, 1998.

The 25-story department store was the tallest in America, and it was the second largest in square footage (only Macy's anchor store in New York is bigger). It closed its doors forever in 1983.

Complicating the implosion, engineered by Controlled Demolition Inc. (CDI) of Phoenix, Md., was the fact that construction of the building occurred in 12 stages between 1911-46 and no structural drawings of the building existed.

But the record-setting implosion went off without a hitch. The roughly 2,728 lbs of explosives placed inside the building reduced it to piles of debris in a matter of seconds.

wow, it's that easy.... Imagine how easy it was when it was constructed all at once to a pattern in the 70s and you have complete access to the blueprints.

Here's a free 1 hr movie by the architects and engineers! Normally you would have to pay to see the 1.5 hr version! This is the most watched thing on PBS!

As someone who studied engineering, including civil engineering, myself, I have to respect this guy's work and research debunking mythbusters and the mainstream media circus (already posted above, but the pseudosceps didn't bother watching it of course):

Last edited by SydneyPSIder on 25 Sep 2012, 06:19, edited 3 times in total.

If I may add my anecdote to that terrible day, it happened this way. I was awoken by a friend that a plane hit the one of the World Trade towers. I live in lower Manhattan, by the way. Anyhow, my friend and I made our way to the west side highway to get a better view of the disaster. When I saw that not just one tower but both had been hit I knew intuitively that this WAS NOT AN ACCIDENT. My friend and I asked at the time what exactly hit the towers. The gentleman we met on the side of the highway said they were planes. I asked what type? The gentleman said he didn't know. However, I made the comment that a small aircraft could have not done this considering the penetration. At this time I noticed that there was not much fire coming from the buildings. In fact, the smoke was very black. Also, I noticed that many people from uptown were making their way to the disaster area. Yes, I and my friend started toward downtown to another friend's apartment to see if he was seeing what we we seeing. We made up our minds not to go to far south, past SOHO. Please take note my state of mind and what I was thinking. One, I was absolutely calm and knew that what was happening was not an accident and that we intuitively knew that this was the beginning of something big. We did not try to articulate it at this point. Yes, this was a feeling after years of research if I may say so. Two, and please accept this as the truth so help me God. My friend and I said to each other that it is fool-hearty to think of going anywhere near the towers. Why? Because if this was a terrorist attack (Yes, the first time we used the word terror) we knew that the possibility of extending collateral damage happens when people congregate around a disaster. Yes, the thought of Israeli and Palestinian terror attacks entered my mind.

Moving on and moving south. What happened next defies explanation. The next thing we saw before we left the west side highway was a huge plume of white smoke. Very much like the pyroclastic flows we see from volcanic events. At that time we did not know what the hell it was. However, what we learned later was that the South Tower had collapsed completely. We could not see the South Tower from our position because the North Tower was blocking it. When we got to our friend's place and awoke him, we turned on the news and learned about the collapse of the South Tower. We all went out onto his veranda Keeping an eye on the news only to learn that the Pentagon had been hit, too. It was either after the pentagon got hit or right before that we saw the North Tower collapse. God, it was surreal to watch. It looked completely pulverized as it fell. Debris was shooting everywhere.

There was no doubt in our minds (the first gentleman who woke me up) what was happening now. In fact, I said - "Here we go again." I'll leave that for your interpretation. Anyhow, we spent about an hour at our friend's place before returning to my friend's apartment in the same building in which I live in. I might add that my friend is a researcher of history too. I should back up, though. Before going to our building we entered a coffee shop that we frequent in the neighborhood. We found a gentleman, a business man dressed in shirt and tie, who was desperately trying to call his family on his cell phone. This was an impossibility at the time for obvious reasons. The gentleman told us he was in the North Tower at the time of both impacts. It appears the gentleman decided to get away from the WTC complex before the collapse as he was not covered in soot which we saw from the victims that day.

My friend and I asked the gentleman to come back to my friend's apartment and try a land line that he had. Perhaps, he could get through to his family. The gentleman thanked us and said he would greatly appreciate this. By the way, the gentleman from the North Tower was in his late 50s. So off we went to our building not a half a block away. I should prefix that my friend's apartment is a researcher's dream. He has maps on the walls, one of which is the middle east, prominently displayed, and books on history, some hard to get, which line the book cases in his apartment. However, there was one book which my friend was reading was on the floor when we entered. It was the only book on the floor. In fact, I bought this book for my friend roughly two to three weeks prior to 9/11. More on the book later.

As the gentleman made his call we turned on the television set to hear the latest news. Keep in mind, that while the gentleman made his call we could hear the incessant sirens drowning lower Manhattan and all the activity going on outside on the street. Yes, it was bedlam to say the least. It was a very tense time as we hoped the gentleman could make contact with his family. And he did! The relief that the gentleman exhibited upon making contact with a family member we shall never forget. The gentleman took a moment after the call and you could see him utterly relax. It was palpably thick with emotion. With that, the gentleman thanked us as he caught his breath and his body slumped. It was at this point the gentleman looked around at his environs (the maps and the books) and realized he was in no ordinary apartment. However, when the man looked at his feet and saw "the book" he could not get out of dodge quick enough. It was like someone farted and you had to get away for air. I am not being melodramatic in the least. For this man saw on the floor what my friend and I already intuitively knew concerning that terrible day. That book he saw was Robert Stinnet's "Day of Deceit."

Yes, we were emotionally and intellectually prepared that day, my friend and I. We had done our homework.