Recently, I have been experimenting with making “thin” versions of Randy’s American style pizza. The reason I have been doing this is because Randy’s basic recipe makes more dough than I am able to conveniently use. By my estimation, the recipe makes a bit over 28 ounces of dough, enough for a hefty 16-inch pizza or two 12-inch pizzas (Randy’s recommendations). I have also calculated that the thickness factor for the 16-inch is around 0.14; for the 12-inch, it is 0.126. What I was interested in was a 14-inch pizza with a thickness factor of around 0.105-0.11, which is more like a NY style crust thickness (but somewhat thicker).

In order to determine how much of each ingredient in Randy’s recipe I would need to make the “thinner” 14-in pizza, I first had to convert Randy’s recipe to baker’s percents. The recipe I used for this purpose is one that Randy had posted elsewhere on the forum, but essentially as reproduced below. Using the weight measurements provided by Randy, and using measurement data taken from the labels on bottles of honey, packages of raw sugar, from the Classico olive oil bottle, and from a box of salt, I came up with the following formulation, including baker’s percents:

Unless I made errors in the calculations, the baker’s percents as recited above can now be used to make any size or thickness of Randy’s American style pizza. For the 14-inch pizza, the formulation I ended up with was as follows:

In making the dough, I tried to follow Randy’s instructions as closely as possible (Edit: See instructions in Reply 5 below). Apart from the different pizza size and dough thickness, about the only change I made to Randy’s recipe and instructions was to knead the dough for about 6 minutes. I did this since my dough ball size (16.93 oz.) was quite a bit less than Randy’s dough ball size (around 28 oz.) The dough was a dream to make. The ingredient amounts were just about exact and I found almost no need to add either more flour or water. The dough was smooth and supple. After I finished making the dough, I rounded it into a ball, brushed it with a little olive oil, placed it into a covered metal container, and then into the refrigerator. During the time that the dough was in the refrigerator, it rose quite a bit—almost to the point of wanting to push the cover off of the container. I expected this since Randy’s recipe calls for a lot of yeast (many multiples of what I normally use) and the water used was at 120 degrees F, also higher than I normally use for a retarded dough (the finished dough temperature off of the hook was around 90 degrees F).

I took the dough out of the refrigerator about 48 hours later and set it aside, covered with a sheet of plastic wrap, for about 3 hours, as also recommended by Randy in his instructions. The dough was extremely easy to stretch and shape into a 14 inch skin. It was balanced in terms of both extensibility and elasticity. I used a 14-inch screen (no stone). For the sauce, I used Randy’s Penzeys/6-in-1 sauce as set forth at Reply #4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,663.msg6019.html#msg6019. I even tried to dress the pizza in the manner preferred by Randy, including using hot sausage (with added dried red peppers in my case since I don’t have access to the Tennessee brand of sausage Randy favors), pepperoni, and pineapple (I used both fresh and canned). The pizza was baked on the screen on the lowest oven rack position for about 8 minutes at around 500 degrees F. I even followed the tip recently made by Randy to wait until the oven light comes back on (indicating that the heating element was heating up again) before putting the pizza into the oven. One of the advantages of using Randy’s recipe this time of year is that by using the screen there is no need to heat the oven and a pizza stone for about an hour. I turned on the oven to preheat it as I was shaping and dressing the pizza. By the time I was done dressing the pizza, the oven was ready.

The photos below show the finished product. I have nothing but praise for Randy’s recipe. The pizza was first rate in every way, from beginning to end. I will caution readers, however, that I liked the combination of all the items on the pizza, including the Penzeys/6-in-1 sauce, hot sausage, pepperoni and pineapple. It’s hard for me to imagine that others wouldn’t like the combination, but I appreciate the concept of personal taste. I thought the sauce and toppings were very complementary and harmonious, with pleasing contrasts of sweetness, saltiness, heat and spice. Surprisingly, the dough itself did not strike me as sweet, given the large amounts of sugar and honey used (a total of 9.8% by baker’s percent) and my personal sensitivity to sweetness (which I tend to avoid in pizza doughs). However, it is possible that the sweetness of the dough was masked by all the other flavors. The crust was a nice brown color, and the crumb was soft and tender. Overall, I think the pizza, at least to the extent I downsized it, was one of the best I have tried. I commend it to others looking for a nice departure from the many other pizza styles popularized on this forum.

Thank you for your kind words Peter. The pizza looks great. With the 16 oz flour version I have been making a 16" pizza as you noted and it is thicker than a New Yorker. We usually freeze half of it. for our lunch another day. When reheated it is very crisp.Again thanks so much for the good review.

Yesterday, I made my latest “thin” version of Randy’s American pie. The recipe and instructions I followed were essentially the same as the last one except that (1) I reduced the amounts of yeast, sugar, honey and salt by half, (2) I increased the hydration level a bit (to around 61.5%), and (3) I introduced a 5-minute rest period in the middle of the kneading sequence. The last two changes were made to reflect changes that Randy recommended in a recent post. The revised recipe I used is as follows (including the revised baker’s percents):

There was little difference in the dough made using the above recipe except that it seemed lighter, both in texture and in color. I believe the reduced coloration can be explained by the reduced amount of honey I used. Whether the lighter dough texture was due to the changes in quantities of the yeast, sugar, honey and salt or due to the introduction of the 5-minute rest period in the middle of the kneading process is difficult to say. I will have to repeat the experiment sometime without the rest period to divine the answer to that question. The dough also rose quickly in its container during refrigeration, even though the amount of yeast had been cut in half. I attribute the fast rise mainly to the warm water (above 120 degrees F) that I used. The dough pushed up against the lid for the container and stayed that way for the roughly two days I left the dough in the refrigerator. Toward the end of the period of refrigeration (after about 50 hours), the dough started to recede in its container and to shrink by about 20 percent. I decided at that point to shape the dough and make the pizza.

The dough handled pretty much as the prior doughs I have made using Randy’s basic recipe and variations. The dough was easy to handle and stretch out to 14 inches, the size of the pizza screen. I dressed the pizza in the same fashion as my prior American pizzas, and baked it in the same manner as before (on the lowermost oven rack of a 500-degree F preheated oven), for a total of about 8 minutes. One of the things I really like about Randy’s recipe is that the pizza can be ready about 15 minutes after the oven has been turned on. With outdoor temperatures hovering around 100 degrees F recently in these parts, that’s a blessing.

The photos below show the finished product. As will be noted by comparing these photos with the last pair of photos, it would be hard to tell a difference between the two pizzas. However, the most recent pizza seemed to have a lighter crumb, both in terms of color and texture. Tastewise, the two pizzas seemed pretty much the same. The next time I make this pizza, I am inclined to reduce the dough thickness a bit more (to what I believe Randy has referred to before as an “American New York style”). I might even increase the amount of honey a bit. I like the color that it produces in the crust and crumb.

Indeed, the link does not appear to be working, and I will edit my prior post to avoid confusion. However, in another thread Randy posted a version of his American pie recipe along with the following instructions, which I have cut and pasted below (in italics) as follows:

Mix flour sugar and salt. Put yeast and half the flour mixture in the mixer. Mix the honey and oil into the very warm water. Pour mixture into bowl and place mixer using dough hook on stir for about 2 minutes. Stop mixer. Add the rest of the flour, then set mixer to stir until the dough pulls from the sides of the bowl then stop mixer for 5 minutes. After the 5 minutes, go to speed 2 for 12 minutes. On a lightly floured surface shape into a ball. Place in the refrigerator in a lightly sealed container coated with olive oil overnight or up to three days.

Remove 3 hours before panningRemove from the fridge and flatten then fold, then shape into a ball using wet hands.

When I followed Randy's instructions, I used a shorter knead time because of the smaller amount of dough I was making. Also, I didn't flatten and fold the dough after it came out of the refrigerator. I just flattened the dough, covered it loosely with a piece of plastic wrap, and let it set at room temperature for about 2 hours or so. I worked the dough into a skin in a mixture of flour, cornmeal and semolina, as Randy has recommended elsewhere to create a marbling kind of effect.

It's Randy's basic recipe and instructions that should get all the credit. All I do is what Randy says to do. It's a pretty foolproof recipe, even when it is modified, as I have been doing on this thread to satisfy my intellectual curiosity (and to provide food for nourishment ).

My most recent experiment with Randy’s basic American style dough recipe has been to make a 16-inch, thin NY style pizza—basically a cross between Randy’s American style and a NY style. The thickness factor I chose, 0.10, was essentially that used for a thin NY style dough. I also decided to reduce the amount of yeast even further than my most recent experiments, and also to temperature adjust the water used to achieve a finished dough temperature of about 80 degrees F. These latter steps were taken so that the dough would not rise as fast and as much as in my past experiments. In those experiments, the dough pushed up against the cover of my container and, but for the container, would have spread all over the place (as I imagined it would do if it were in a commercial proofing box as is used at places like Papa John’s).

For the most recent experiment, I also used ordinary sugar instead of raw sugar, ordinary table salt, and ordinary vegetable oil instead of light olive oil, as might be done, for example, at a place like Papa John’s. Although Papa John’s dough does not use honey, I left it in because I like it. I also believe it is a core element of Randy’s recipe and responsible in part for the high quality of the dough, its superior handling qualities, and contribution to a nicely browned crust and light, yet chewy, crumb. The formulation I used for the most recent experiment was as follows (with baker’s percents):

The procedures I used to make the dough were essentially the same as those recommended by Randy except that this time I combined all of the dry ingredients in a bowl, except for the sugar, which was combined with the honey in the water (at 72 degrees F). About half of the flour/salt/IDY mixture was put in the mixer bowl along with most of the sugar/honey/water mixture. These were combined for about 3-4 minutes at stir speed as the remaining flour/salt/IDY mixture was gradually added to the ingredients in the bowl. The oil was then added and kneaded in for about a minute, and the entire dough mixture was kneaded at speed 2 for about another 6 minutes. I used no rest periods, either during the kneading process or thereafter.

The dough formed very easily and nicely, with no need to make even minor adjustment to flour and/or water in the bowl. The dough was very soft and supple. After about a minute of final hand kneading, the dough was lightly covered with vegetable oil, and placed in a covered container and into the refrigerator. The dough remained in the refrigerator for about 48 hours, following which I brought it to room temperature, covered it lightly with a sheet of plastic wrap, and let it set for about 2 1/2 hours in preparation for forming and shaping it into a 16-inch skin. As I anticipated, during the first 24 hours in the refrigerator, the dough ball hardly rose at all, most likely because of the cooler water used to make the dough and the reduced amount of IDY. During the next 24 hours, the dough spread a bit to fill the container laterally and rose by about 30-40%. The dough reminded me in many respects of the NY style doughs I have made in the past.

The dough shaped very easily. It was a bit extensible (stretchy) but I had no difficulty whatever forming it into a 16-inch skin. The finished skin was placed on a 16-inch pizza screen, dressed in a basic pepperoni/sausage style with the same 6-in-1 sauce as used in my past experiments, and baked on the lowest oven rack position in a preheated 500-550 degree F oven. It took about 9-10 minutes to bake.

The photos below show the finished product. Everything about the finished pizza was excellent—the texture of the crust and crumb, the color of the crust, and the taste. The tips of slices even drooped like a NY style slice. The rim of the crust was not as high as my past experiments, but seemed consistent with the 0.10 thickness factor I used. The crust was also a bit sweeter than the last crusts I made, but it wasn’t bothersome in any way. I suspect had I used pineapple on the pizza, as I have done in all my prior experiments with Randy’s recipe, I wouldn’t have detected the sweetness in the crust as much.

I believe the overall good results I achieved with the pizza--and the earlier pizzas as well--is a testament to the exceptional recipe that Randy has come up with. It is solid, durable, adaptable, and virtually idiot-proof. You almost have to work hard to hurt it.

My next experiment may be to use all-purpose flour, as I suspect may be done at Papa John’s (I don't know for sure), but keeping the ratios of ingredients (baker’s percents) more or less intact.

Each of our regional quality control centers is equipped with special water filtration and ozonation systems. These systems allow us to make our traditional dough with consistently high-quality clear-filtered water. ·

Our original crust dough is shipped fresh (never frozen) to our restaurants, allowing it to proof slowly and naturally. We believe that a full-flavored crust comes from dough which has been given the proper time to work its natural magic.

I wonder whether Papa John's may have changed its flour. When I went to the PJ website today, I saw the following statement, which is identical to the one you posted except for the first paragraph pertaining to its pizza flour:

We use a proprietary flour to make Papa John's traditional dough. This high-protein flour gives our crust a consistently hearty flavor and texture in each bite.

Each of our regional quality control centers is equipped with special water filtration and ozonation systems. These systems allow us to make our traditional dough with consistently high-quality clear-filtered water.

Our original crust dough is shipped fresh (never frozen) to our restaurants, allowing it to proof slowly and naturally. We believe that a full-flavored crust comes from dough which has been given the proper time to work its natural magic.

When I checked out the King Arthur website today, I saw that just about all of its flours from all-purpose up to high-gluten are deemed "high protein". The KA all-purpose flour is made from hard red winter wheat, which suggests about 10-12% protein, whereas its KASL is made from hard red spring wheat, which suggests about 12-14% protein (but we know the KASL has around 14% protein). KA also has a bread flour for machines that is made from hard red spring wheat, and it has other flours that are made from both hard red spring and winter wheat. As best I can tell, neither the KA website, their catalog, or the packaging information on their regular bread flour indicates what kind(s) of wheat are used for the regular bread flour. However, all of KA the flours mentioned above would fall within the "high protein" category referenced in the above PJ statement.

Even if PJ has changed its flour to a lower protein flour, I tend to agree with you that high-gluten flour is the best choice for the American style recipe. It would still be nice to know, however, what they are now using for their flour.

I would not confuse what Papa John's says with high gluten flour as we know it. Hard Red Spring flour does not necessitate flour labelled as High Gluten. In fact, you will find similar words on Bob's Red Mill Unbleached White flour, which reads: Milled from extra high protein high gluten US Number 1 dark northern hard red spring wheat... . While their flour is higher than most ALL Purpose, it is still in the range of an ALL Purpose. The same is true with King Arthur, who brags of using the same wheat. And indeed, their stuff is 1% higher than most All Purpose and Bread flours; but they are still 11.7% and 12.7% accordingly.

I find many pizzerias that use an ALL Purpose or Bread flour because of their preference with taste. Amici's, for example, uses a high protein ALL Purpose, and their Mountain View fired oven produces excellent pizza. And of course, many of the bread companies do the same around the San Francisco area for their sweet french baquettes, which are very good in taste.

I'm not at all surprised with your successes. Getting ingredients properly mixed can be a real problem with standard mixers. That was one of the first pieces of advice I was given from a professional as his Hobart thoroughly mixed in the ingredients... Even with pros, things can be stepped along. But it is well worth much experimentation and variations, as you are finding here. One thing I find extremely upsetting about the Kitchen Aid mixer is that it can really suck when it comes to splitting out the wrong ingredients at the wrong time.

You'll remember your reference a long time ago with your ZO bread machine when I mentioned that active yeast can be added dry, as seen in bread machines. Sure enough, you're ZO instructions recommended adding active yeast as a dry ingredient. I have found success though when adding sugar and salt to the water, while leaving the active yeast mixed in the flour.

In our normal ovens, I find that added sugar is a great way to get excellent color, along with a bit drier effect caused by the effect of heat to the additional cooking of dough when included. As you remember with my earlier posts in NY Techniques, I used to get incredible color with under 2 tsp. The makeup of the flour can play a factor as well (e.g., malted barley in flour vs the lack of conditioners in KA). Honey is what Wolfgang Puch and others suggest, and I believe it helps the taste and texture of various flours, esp high gluten, with its hydroscopic and jelly-like nature.

Your percentages of water (60%) to flour is what I generally used in the NY Techniques section (keeping in mind that I use oil as my additional percentage). Oil at 2.8% seems plenty for the softening effect. Again, this is relevant to the level of protein. Of course, with lower protein flours, the amount of oil becomes less relevant.

Remember when we talked about all things not being equal when flour starts to be raised from the amounts that pros use vs. what we use? Sometimes % don't seem to work on equal bounds, esp with yeast, when we decrease from 50 lbs to 2 lbs... I know from my own experimentation that when I go upward, I need to modify percentages. It seems that more spring is given sometimes with a bit more usage of yeast. Sometimes people split their water 50/50 between cold and real warm just to maintain the fermentation before placing it in the refrigerator. But I believe it comes at a cost when trying to get everything mixed properly.

As you know, my outcome is usually about 16+ oz for a 14" or so dough, and that still makes a thin result when creating a good cornicione. I often work with a screen. But I have to move it around the oven. If I were to place it at the bottom of my oven for 8 minutes at 500F, it would be burnt crumb.

I have had a lot of fun playing around with Randy's recipe. At the same time, it has confounded me more than any recipe that I can recall. I think it is because I am not accustomed to using the levels of salt, sugar (including the honey) and yeast called for in Randy's recipe. And I am not accustomed to using high water temperatures, even though they are consistent with what the yeast producers recommend. Yet the combination works, even in my simple and basic KitchenAid mixer. I also think that the honey helps the texture and feel of the dough. I modified the recipe in different ways, yet the basic integrity of the dough seemed to remain intact through all the modifications. That's a tribute to the recipe.

On the matter of the yeast, most people tend to believe that the only dry yeast that can be added to flour and other dry ingredients is instant dry yeast (IDY). Yet, as you have pointed out on many occasions, and as even the yeast producers acknowledge (although somewhat quietly), at least a part of the active dry yeast can also be added to the dry ingredients. Unless a recipe specifies otherwise (as with the SAF active dry yeast Randy's recipe calls for), I personally proof the active dry yeast in a small amount of warm water and then combine it with the rest of the water. My recollection is that when you add the active dry yeast to the bowl it is toward the end of the mixing process so that the fermentation is delayed. Is that correct, and are you still using that approach?

You discussed spring versus winter wheat in your earlier post. I don't know the answer to this question, but is it safe to say that while not all hard red spring wheat may end up as high-gluten flour all high-gluten flour (such as the KASL) comes from hard red spring wheat? I'm guessing that Papa John's uses something less than high-gluten flour--perhaps a bread flour blend--because a pizza crust based on high-gluten flour tends not to hold up as well for home delivery. It may even be an all-purpose flour that PJ uses, which is the flour I plan to use when I make my next pizza based on Randy's recipe.

Sometimes I proof the yeast, and sometimes I do not. When I don't proof it, I work with warmer water. It's just too risky to get the yeast in with the KA mixer at later stages, so I do it early on. With tins, the fermentation delay starts pretty quick.

I'm happy for this thread because its timing is in synch with my desire over this past week to lower the temps to what I used a long time ago.

I call this my 2-2-3-4 pizza, which I cooked just over 500F... Sauteed red onions and spinach (2), genoa salami and pepperoni (2), home-grown herbs (3) and a grilled onion mixed in with a cheddar cheese, grande mozzarella and pecorino (4):(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/2-2-3-3.JPG)

I will defer your expertise on this matter, but 2 Tablespoons sugar plus one of honey for a pound of flour seems high. Since I usually make the crispy crust style, maybe I'm out of my league. So respectfully, you sure?

You are very observant and your question is a very good one. The sugar and honey combined represent 9.8% by weight of flour. You might also have mentioned that the salt comes in at 3.3% by weight of flour, which is also on the high side. However, I don't believe you should look at those numbers in isolation. I think they have to be looked at in relation to the amount of yeast (1.6%, representing a whole packet), and other factors.

Tom Lehmann basically says that under normal circumstances when salt gets above about 2% (baker’s percent) and the sweetener gets above 5% they are likely to hinder the activity of the yeast by pulling fluids from the yeast by osmosis, thereby slowing down fermentation and possibly resulting in a finished crust that may be too tough and hard. Too much salt can also inhibit protease enzyme performance (which affects gluten development) and the decomposition of the starch to simple sugars (through amylase enzymatic activity), resulting in less browning of the crust because of the reduced levels of residual sugar. In Randy's recipe, the higher than normal levels of sweetener will, of course, compensate in part for any reduction of residual sugars and insure that there is adequate browning of the crust. The use of oil in the dough (2.8% in Randy's recipe) will also contribute to some softening of the crumb in the finished crust and help mitigate some of the problems or effects that high levels of salt (or other factors) might cause. As one can see, there are a lot of competing factors and interplay between the various ingredients, with a lot of "battles" going on beneath the surface of the dough.

Obviously, Randy’s recipe works very well and, as I understand it, it took Randy several years of experimentation to get the recipe just right. The best explanation I can come up with why Randy’s recipe works so well is that no matter what effects the high levels of salt and sugar have on the normal performance of the yeast and the fermentation process, there is still sufficient yeast left in the dough to carry out all of its normal duties (fermentation, carbon dioxide production, etc.) Stated another way, if I were to use much lower levels of yeast with the same levels of sweetener and salt, I don't believe the results would be satisfactory (and maybe even fatally flawed) because of degraded yeast performance. I also believe it is the “battle” between the salt, sweeteners and yeast and their relative ratios that restrain the dough from producing an overly thick crust, even in the presence of large bubbles here and there in the dough and in the finished crust. The crust is of good height, has very good coloration and, surprisingly, there is not an overly saltiness or cloying sweetness in the crust, as one might expect from the high levels of salt and sweetener. The balance seems just about right.

My experiments with Randy's recipe to date have sought, among other things, to reduce the levels of salt and sweetener below the abovementioned threshholds. That has meant that lower levels of yeast could also be used. Yet, I tried to keep the balances and ratios intact, so as to preserve the basic nature and integrity of Randy's recipe. Thus far, Randy's recipe has survived everything I have done to it.

Thanks Pete-zza. If it works it works. As a professor of mine used to say, "an ounce of fact is worth a pound of theory".16 ounces of fact and flour (sugar, salt, yeast and oil) will feed a whole family.

Thanks Pete-zza. If it works it works. As a professor of mine used to say, "an ounce of fact is worth a pound of theory".16 ounces of fact and flour (sugar, salt, yeast and oil) will feed a whole family.

thanks

It definitely works. Randy's recipe is fantastic! It tastes great (basically like a Papa John's hand-tossed) and stretches very easily. This is probably my favorite recipe on the site (at least until I can perfect the Lehman NY recipe . )