Knicks Morning News (Friday, Feb 24 2012)

MIAMI — After the Knicks’ 102-88 loss to the Heat, New York Knicks point guard Jeremy Lin was at his locker with his head down. He finished with just as many turnovers (eight) as points — his lowest total since his sudden surge started against the Nets.
Knicks forward Carmelo Anthony, whose locker was directly across from Lin’s, recognized Lin’s dejection, as did the other players, and they went over to comfort him.
“We said, ‘Cheer up, man,'” Anthony said in the postgame locker room.

Jeremy Lin’s exciting talent has lit up the NBA this season but after he and the New York Knicks suffered a humbling loss to the Miami Heat on Thursday, the talk about him was of learning rather than leading.

The Miami Heat swept aside Jeremy Lin and the New York Knicks 102-88 on Thursday as the NBA’s latest sensation was given a reality check by an All-Star laden team who extended their winning streak to eight games.

Where's Jeremy Lin going Friday? To Disney World! Well, at least near Disney World. Lin's whirlwind February will continue Friday as he will be the featured attraction on the first day of the NBA's All-Star Weekend in Orlando, Fla.

Roger Federer may be the most accomplished tennis player ever, but he’s a fan of basketball in general, and the Knicks in specific. So it’s no shock that when he plays a March 5 exhibition against Andy Roddick in the Garden, he hopes to meet the man who…

MIAMI â?? Jeremy Lin finally met his match last night and it was ugly.
In by far his worst performance during this 12-game surreal surge, Lin fell apart under the South Beach spotlight and the Knicks caved with him in a disappointing 102-88 loss to the mighty Heat last night at…

MIAMI ALL­Â­â?? Well, you can’t say the Heat weren’t stoked for this one, despite the fact that there were
9 1/2 games separating themselves from the Knicks in the conference standings before the ball was ever tipped.
“It felt like a playoff game,â? point guard Mario Chalmers said…

MIAMI â?? After the second game of Jeremy Lin’s emergence, the day after Super Sunday, a reporter asked Mike D’Antoni if the undrafted point guard out of Harvard had become a bigger story than the Giants winning the Super Bowl.
D’Antoni snickered at the absurdity.
“Not quite,” he…

MIAMI â?? Boxer Floyd Mayweather Jr. who tweeted derogatory things about Jeremy Lin saying the Knicks point guard was getting all of the attention solely because he was Chinese-American, and Spike Leewere seen chatting courtside for an extended time last night.
“Jeremy Lin is a good player, but all the hype…

MIAMI â?? The Knicks get two useful gifts out of a long night alongside Biscayne Bay. The first is immediate: an All-Star break that couldn’t come at a better time, five straight days without a game on the schedule, eight of the next nine days dark, a time of rest…

Lin and the Knicks moved up in class last night, taking their Linsanity tour to South Beach and the results were awful. Looking tired and in need of a break, the Knicks became unglued in the second half before eventually falling 102-88 to the Heat.

As bad as Jeremy Lin was against the Heat Thursday night, he wasn’t even the worst Knicks point guard on the floor. Lin’s backup, Baron Davis, gave the Knicks next to nothing in his 14 minutes. Davis missed all seven of his shots, including four 3-pointers.

Linsanity wasn’t going to go on forever. The best team in the NBA stopped all the Jeremy Lin talk, at least for one night, in a command performance that was as good as the Knicks’ sensation is ever going see.

While watching Madison Square Garden Network’s postgame show on Monday night, after the Nets beat the Knicks, 100-92, there were no expectations of hearing anything about Spero Dedes and the flap over his “c—- in the armorâ? reference he made the previous Friday when describing Jeremy Lin’s first loss as a starter.

Last night’s game brought me back to the “90s and the Chicago Bulls. I saw similarities in the defensive intensity and the offensive execution. Our team reminds me of the Suns, Blazers and Jazz of that era, really good and deep all-around teams that just couldn’t get past the Bulls. Only OKC seems to have the depth and talent to seriously challenge them this year, but I think the Heat will handle them. That is, unless LeBron melts down in the finals again. Realistically, if we can get to the ECFs and lose to the Heat in 6 games, that would be a fair ceiling for this team. I just don’t believe in the Bulls.

The Heat “Big 3″ played as advertized last night. Bosh was the unsung hero for the Heat last night, every time we threatened, he was automatic from mid-range, the same shots that Amare used to drain. Chalmers and Cole were a solid, athletic tandem at PG, clearly having Wade and LeBron helps them.

I think that from the perspective of the performances of Lin and Chandler last night in particular that the fatigue was obvious. Lin couldnt move an Chandler was not even jumping for rebounds. They were obviously just exhausted. I did not walk away feeling pessimistic at all. I thought MDA did a poor job with his substitutions. He should have kept guys coming in and out and getting them blows. He is very stubborn when it comes to that. Really bothers me.

We do need to come out of the break on a tear though and get a few games up.

Also related to Lin losing confidence and crashing down to earth I dont buy that either. Look at what the kid had to battle through to get his shot. He was about to be cut 3 weeks ago and now he is starring on national tv against the Heat. You think one bad game is going to blow his confidence? Doesn’t seem like his demeanor to me at all.

Z-man:
Last night’s game brought me back to the “90s and the Chicago Bulls.I saw similarities in the defensive intensity and the offensive execution.Our team reminds me of the Suns, Blazers and Jazz of that era, really good and deep all-around teams that just couldn’t get past the Bulls. Only OKC seems to have the depth and talent to seriously challenge them this year, but I think the Heat will handle them. That is, unless LeBron melts down in the finals again. Realistically, if we can get to the ECFs and lose to the Heat in 6 games, that would be a fair ceiling for this team.I just don’t believe in the Bulls.

The Heat “Big 3? played as advertized last night. Bosh was the unsung hero for the Heat last night, every time we threatened, he was automatic from mid-range, the same shots that Amare used to drain.Chalmers and Cole were a solid, athletic tandem at PG, clearly having Wade and LeBron helps them.

no man, we’ll have practice time and we’ll gel and Anthony will prove he’s in the same level as LeBron and we’ll beat them next time!!!

cgreene: I think that from the perspective of the performances of Lin and Chandler last night in particular that the fatigue was obvious. Lin couldnt move an Chandler was not even jumping for rebounds. They were obviously just exhausted. I did not walk away feeling pessimistic at all. I thought MDA did a poor job with his substitutions. He should have kept guys coming in and out and getting them blows. He is very stubborn when it comes to that. Really bothers me. We do need to come out of the break on a tear though and get a few games up.

Yeah, but the Heat win the same way every night whether they are exhausted or not. They are a well-oiled machine right now, much more so than last year. Barring injury, nobody in the East is beating them in a 7-game series. I just don’t think the Bulls match up well with the Heat. The Knicks are the only team in the East with an outside chance, very outside, because if they gel they have depth and a very versatile team. However, the Heat are going to be impossible to stop in transition because of their suffocating D and athleticism, and they get back very well in transition D themselves. They can win either in “showtime” style or a “war of attrition” style.

More established point guards than Jeremy Lin have struggled with the Heat this year. Everyone is turning the ball over way more than usual or scoring a lot less. Rondo had 7 turnovers, D-Will had 10 points and 10 but with 5 turnovers. Scrolling through game logs, the only point guard that has been dominate against the Heat this season was Chris Paul (27 and 11, with only 2 turnovers). If Lin struggles like this against Charlotte, fine, but everyone is struggling against the Heat. I’m not worried at all.

jon abbey: the Bulls never played anywhere near this kind of team D. even if you want to equate Jordan/Pippen to LeBron/Wade on that end, Chicago had no equivalent to Joel Anthony or Battier.

More talking about style than anything else, although Horace Grant was a very good defensive player, as were guys like Scott Williams, Ron Harper, Dennis Rodman, etc. BTW, Anthony looked like Ben Wallace last night, but his stats for the year are not as imkpressive: 1.2 blocks per game, 2.0 per 36. I personally think that Jordan-Pippen was better defensively by a large margin than LeBron-Wade. But again, it’s about style more than anything else. The role players on the Heat are playing with the same swagger as the role players on the Bulls played with during their championship run, and Wade and LeBron have that Pippen-Jordan thing going on. Very tough to beat.

Regarding B-Diddy, I’m hoping with more playing time he tries to finish his drives more, last night he was getting all the way to the basket, getting airborne, and then throwing crazy passes out to the 3 point line.

d-mar: Regarding B-Diddy, I’m hoping with more playing time he tries to finish his drives more, last night he was getting all the way to the basket, getting airborne, and then throwing crazy passes out to the 3 point line.

Yeah, we won’t know what we have in him until April, crazy to judge him at all before then. One thing’s for sure, he’s already better than Bibby and TD were. To be fair, he did handle the defensive pressure a little bit better than Lin did.

Some people (not so much those here) seem genuinely surprised to learn that Top-3 point guards don’t emerge, fully formed, from out of the ether.

Among Knick fans of my acquaintance, I’ve spent the better part of the last two weeks arguing the rather unpopular position that what Lin had been doing was just not sustainable. That his day of reckoning finally arrived should come as a shock to no one. That it took a team as defensively gifted as the 2012 Heat to bring it about is hardly an indictment of the lad. In fact, it’s actually somewhat encouraging to think that one of the best defensive squads in recent memory felt compelled to summon up a playoff-level effort to shut down a player who’s spent a grand total of two weeks as an NBA starter.

Lin will be fine. Which is not to see that I expect to see him replicate his otherworldly play of the last two weeks going forward. I suspect there will be something of a leveling out period and he’ll eventually settle in comfortably among the second tier of the league’s PG s. I don’t think he’ll ever be on the level of Chris Paul or Deron Williams. But if he ultimately finds himself somewhere in the neighborhood of a Kyle Lowry, I’d be one happy camper.

Z-man: More talking about style than anything else, although Horace Grant was a very good defensive player, as were guys like Scott Williams, Ron Harper, Dennis Rodman, etc.BTW, Anthony looked like Ben Wallace last night, but his stats for the year are not as imkpressive: 1.2 blocks per game, 2.0 per 36.I personally think that Jordan-Pippen was better defensively by a large margin than LeBron-Wade. But again, it’s about style more than anything else. The role players on the Heat are playing with the same swagger as the role players on the Bulls played with during their championship run, and Wade and LeBron have that Pippen-Jordan thing going on. Very tough to beat.

On Lebron/Wade vs. Pippen/Jordan it was such a different era for perimeter defenders that it makes comparison nearly impossible. With the crackdowns on hand checking and the decrease in the amount of contact allowed around the rim it’s MUCH harder to defend on the perimeter now (in my opinion). That’s why guards and penetrating wings have become so dominant in the game. That’s what makes Lebron/Wade so impressive. The whole sport is geared towards allowing for effective PG play, and they still completely shut it down.

When we play them again I think JR Smith needs to start, against dallas there were times that the double team forced the ball out of Lin’s hands and they swung the ball to Smith and he basically penetrated as if he were opposite pg, it worked really well. Either way they have got to scheme something else to free up Lin. I know we are going to improve between now and playoff time. I know we aren’t going to fail to get calls quite as bad as we did last night, I’m not sure however if we are going to be able to improve enough, and my biggest fear with all of this was that we could create a second best team situation again and basically relive the 90’s.

OK I have to admit. EVEN though I feel a little bad about it, I was so happy they lost last night. It doesn’t take much for New Yorkers to get riled, 7 games in and we were going yo the ECF, Lin should have been an all star, Melo was painted as the big bad wolf, Linsanity was on its way to be a registered trademark, and lest I forget the famous Mike Dantoni offense, child please gimme a break. LIke I said after the raptors game, this guy is a product of the Dantoni system, he is not Nash, he is not Paul, or Rondo or Magic or nothing, he is just a guy with a feel good story, who got a shot, right place, right time and dare I say right System. You guys act like it’s the first time we’ve seen this, it happened in the Boston game, dude couldn’t even bring the ball pastt half court. The guy was cut for a reason, go ahead with your excuses ” oh they need time gel”, child please are u kidding me. The Clippers beat the Heat, they also beat the Thunder and you know how long they’ve been together?? Yeah put more excuses here. The guy is what he is, I don’t hate him, I just hate the hoopla. He is just a product of Dantonis famous system, say what u will and that what was shut down last night. You guys tell me isos are bad, hahaha you know who ISOed their way to the win last night, yeah you guessed it, Bosh, Wade and a little bit of a lebron. Go watch it if y’all dont believe me, I still have it on my DVR, one time lebron held the ball, dribbled for 18 seconds drove and kicked out for a wide open shot, yeah but the point is he held the ball. and don’t worry that wasn’t the only instance. You guys seem to forget that even without Lin, we lost to Boston by a possession and the same to the Bulls as well. At least we weren’t getting 8 TO from one guy. I understand Melo played a bad game, hey but u can’t put this one on him people. There’s a new sheriff in NY after all, he goes by Linsanity. I even heard on ESPN radio yesterday morning, Ryen…

The heat are a fantastic team on both sides of the ball, but still… they are only 5th in the league in defense. It is not an otherworldy unit. Although they seem like they can turn it on. I dounderstand the style comparison to Jordan/Pippen. That said, the 90s Bulls rated higher on offense than defense every season. The true great defensive team then was Your New York Knicks. Historically great #s, and almost won titles despite middle-of-the-pack offense.

This year I’d say Miami is the clear title favorite and Chicago (with a healthy Rose) the clear #2… they’ve got a decent shot. OKC is probably the only other team with even a remote chance of winning.

As for Lin, he’ll bounce back. He has literally played 12 meaningful NBA games in his entire career – not that he’s Chris Paul or Derrick Rose, but no one said they were finished because they looked bad in the 12th or 13th game of their career.

thenamestsam: On Lebron/Wade vs. Pippen/Jordan it was such a different era for perimeter defenders that it makes comparison nearly impossible. With the crackdowns on hand checking and the decrease in the amount of contact allowed around the rim it’s MUCH harder to defend on the perimeter now (in my opinion). That’s why guards and penetrating wings have become so dominant in the game. That’s what makes Lebron/Wade so impressive. The whole sport is geared towards allowing for effective PG play, and they still completely shut it down.

Somewhat true, but the league now allows zone defenses, making it much harder to penetrate and eliminating the need for as much pressure on the ball. Either way, Jordan and Pippen would have been just as effective today, they got most of their steals in the passing lanes and on double-teams just like LeBron and Wade, and not on direct ball pressure. In most of their champoinship years, the two combined for more steals per 36 than Wade and LeBron are this year. Anyway, anyone who watched the Bulls those years is familiar with their attacking defensive style led by 2 other-worldly players, and it was very similar to what we are seeing with the Heat.

Z-man: However, the Heat are going to be impossible to stop in transition because of their suffocating D and athleticism, and they get back very well in transition D themselves. They can win either in “showtime” style or a “war of attrition” style.

This is where MDA stubbornness really hurts IMO. The “we are going to play this way no matter what” mentality hurts. The fact is that we have a very versatile team offensively and defensively. It would be much better for us to slow the game down against the Heat, even let Melo bring the ball up to throw off the trapping and to not run the PnR until later in the possession when the ball is lower. The Heat is still not a good half court team. They aren’t. Bosh killed us on matchups last nights because TC was tired and Amare should have been on him. I like that D matchup for Amare. Play him tight on the mid range and let him try and drive (TO HIS RIGHT PLEASE!) into the middle where TC helps off Joel Anthony. Bosh is not a good passer off the dribble. But I digress… slow the game down, use the fact that you have good ISO players, run PnR later in the possession, make it a half court game. I’ll take that war of attrition of which you speak… and more JR over Landry.

The thing about the Heat defense is it is the perfect style of defense to battle D’Antoni’s pnr offense. Chicago, Dallas and Philly might have better overall defense but against a team like us Miami is the true nightmare. Miami is the best team in the league at trapping and then recovering to shooters, best at collaspsing on a drive into the lane, best at taking advantage of turnovers. They struggle at stopping true low post presences and slow methodical offenses but for us there is no better defense in the league.

They are a perfect storm as it were, with every defensive strength matching up with all our weaknesses, and we have no weapons to really combat it except hunker down and play a more conservative disciplined offense. Against most teams that style would make us worse but against their size and speed at the wing it is the only way to stand a chance.

From @16….. Ryen Ruocco called the guy the best player on the Knicks. I was amazed. I mean i do agree he’s been the MVP of the Knicks so far but best player, come on man. The guy barely has an NBA scouting report. Best player, see how the Heat gave him flashes of Landry Fields couch. But this not all on Lin, it’s on the coach. Yeah people I’m back on the fire Dantoni bandwagon, again I’m not in favor of system coaches or coaches with systems, same way I’m not a fan of offensive coordinators who are also Head Coaches. Dantonis system starts and ends with the man manning the point, if the pg gets shut down, the offense shuts down, if the pg plays better well u guys know what happens. But if the guy playing point is Nash, Dwill or CP3 , then maybe u got my attention but if it’s the likes of Felton, Lin or in the future a boom guy with a beard, then yeah I’m not interested. Its not about gelling and time and blah, it’s about the coaching, woodson didn’t need that much time to gel on defense so why does Dantoni. Even the Celtics big three won a Championship in their first year so how about that gel they used, did they change the product or what. I’m sorry, I just can’t fathom the fact that if you have 2 top 20 ( 1 top 10) players and the best player according to offensive rating in Tyson( hahahahah@ offensive rating) and you still can’t compete. on a side note I will still do the Nash trade asap well if my main goal was a championship but if its about big bucks then we’re stuck with Linsanity.

Z-man: Somewhat true, but the league now allows zone defenses, making it much harder to penetrate and eliminating the need for as much pressure on the ball.Either way, Jordan and Pippen would have been just as effective today, they got most of their steals in the passing lanes and on double-teams just like LeBron and Wade, and not on direct ball pressure. In most of their champoinship years, the two combined for more steals per 36 than Wade and LeBron are this year. Anyway, anyone who watched the Bulls those years is familiar with their attacking defensive style led by 2 other-worldly players, and it was very similar to what we are seeing with the Heat.

Good point about the zone defenses. I wasn’t trying to disagree with you about the styles. I do think they are very similar, I was just pointing out that the differences in the eras makes it hard to say who’s better between the pairs. Regardless, the Heat are incredibly impressive defensively. Maybe not the best stats in the league, but when they play with max effort they’re extremely difficult, and as Ben R said they match up perfectly for our style because we’re turn over prone, can’t take advantage of the weak link in Bosh (if only Amare were playing well), and because length is the biggest disruptor of the pick and roll and they have a lot of it.

Ironically, last night would’ve been a good night to feed Melo in the post where he can be dominant in the halfcourt.

Aside from that, we just didn’t get back on transition D. Shump would’ve helped that and I guarantee, kept us in that game.

Amare is a big problem. I just don’t know where he fits in between Chandler and Melo. I’m one of those people that think he’s still most effective playing center on a running team since he has no post game and now, can’t hit jumpers. Working on the pnr with Lin will help, but going against pfs, he’ll be less effective than in his Phoenix years. And of course, his defense is a detriment.

It’s sad because I love the guy and what he did for this team, yet I don’t see a place for him now.

ess-dog:
Ironically, last night would’ve been a good night to feed Melo in the post where he can be dominant in the halfcourt.

Aside from that, we just didn’t get back on transition D.Shump would’ve helped that and I guarantee, kept us in that game.

Amare is a big problem.I just don’t know where he fits in between Chandler and Melo.I’m one of those people that think he’s still most effective playing center on a running team since he has no post game and now, can’t hit jumpers.Working on the pnr with Lin will help, but going against pfs, he’ll be less effective than in his Phoenix years.And of course, his defense is a detriment.

It’s sad because I love the guy and what he did for this team, yet I don’t see a place for him now.

Seth from P&T points out in a comment about Melo’s injuries as well. Melo pre wrist was avg 25 pts on 45% shooting Knicks were 6-5 and post injusry 35% shooting Knicks are 5-8 in games Melo played. Dude is kinda hurt still maybe.

Anyway the premise being Lin and MDA need to fit to Melo not the other way around. He’s great around the rim. Get him the ball there. It’s about leveraging the most of your best asset. And Melo haters please pay attention to the points about selfishness. He’s not selfish.

PER rewards people who can put up a lot of shots, Lin is going to start taking less shots out of necessity, this team has too much offensive talent for one guy to be dominating the ball. Besides now that defenses are keying in on Lin and what he can and can’t do, he’s struggling and having an adjustment period that has nothing to do with the other players on the court. He’s missed wide open people pretty frequently the past few games and has taken a fair amount of “hero” shots, although of course he should continue to improve, he’s still really young and pretty inexperienced. The truth is, statistically speaking a 9 game sample is literally meaningless, the 24 PER says nothing about Lin or any 9 game sample. He’s been pretty good, but simply upgrading from TD and Bibby to Lin made the biggest difference from this team, and I like what I’ve seen from Baron so far outside of his shooting. He’s a better ball handler than Lin already.

Lin’s sample size is getting smaller, and the numbers are still very encouraging. TS% of .565 on very high usage, AST% of 46.6, WS/48 of .155. That’s with a few clunker games thrown in there along with some of his great games.

For all intents and purposes, this is Lin’s rookie season; this is obviously the first time he’s gotten extended burn in the NBA. When you compare him against other PGs from the 2010 and 2011 drafts he stacks up extremely well.

It’s funny, I thought that the Dallas game was the clincher, but I guess we still have to debate whether Lin is good? I mean, come on, the guy’s clearly good. He might not be All-Star good, but that’s an extremely high standard. To be an All-Star, you basically have to be one of the best three players in the conference at your position and even then that isn’t always enough to be chosen. So yeah, Lin is not as good as Derrick Rose, Deron Williams or Rajon Rondo, but he’s way up there and having an occasional shitty game is not going to change that.

Say what you want bro, Dantoni sucks and sucks at managing games. Phil is great at managing games and even though. He relied on the triangle, it’s not his offense, it’s actually Tex Winter who created it and he was one of Phil’s assistants. How can your offense be focused on the guy from the D league when you have proven players on your team. I’m sorry son but the coach sucks.

Oh yeah and a system Coach is a coach who is useless when he doesnt have the pieces to fit his system i.e Dantoni.but a good coach like Mcmillan, Coach K, Riley, George Karl and the likes are guys that keep reinventing their systems to fit the guys they have. Dantoni needs specific tools to win, the others win with the tools they have no matter what tools they are.

I agree… Dantoni will never win..they shudda set up amare and melo on the block to try to slow it down in the 2nd half…the nix defense was good for the first 3 quarters then they lost steam…if you look at the box score the only quarter that had a difference of more than 4 points was the 3rd because spolestra made adjustments and dick head mda did not…he is a hard headed coach who can only thrive if his pg is thriving

Plus even though Phil relied heavily on the triangle there was no question that Jordan and Kobe were the focus of the offense. And guess what, when Jordan or Kobe got shutdown they were still able to find ways to win out of Scottie and nowadays out of the post. DANTONI is pg or fail. Are u kidding me?

Look! post all the stats you want guys, remember that most of those stats are nothing but averages. Wake me up with those stats after 40 games. Then maybe we’ll talk. Yeah and that’s half a season and that’s even still questionable.

Yeah you can’t have it both ways pal, if they won, everyone would expect them to go to the finals and we would have to build a statue for MDA. But watch the game closely and all the other games before Lin, where we lost. Like I have always said, they guy pays no attention to detail. Sometimes when you win, you actually lose and vice versa.

BigBlueAL:
The Knicks lose at a rested Miami Heat team on the 2nd night of a back-to-back (4th game in 5 nights) and D’Antoni needs to be fired again??SMH

Lin is certainly a good point guard, but people pointing to his high PER and acting like he’s already a top 5 PG is ridiculous. I actually agree with Brian’s list, maybe I’d add on Curry and Rubio ahead of Lin, but even then that leaves you at around the 15th best PG in the league. Every single one of those point guards has had a better 10 games stretch than Lin has had a career too. Lowry was nearly averaging a triple double on a nightly basis early in the season, and he didn’t even make it to the all star team over a 37 year old point guard who plays no defense on a losing team. That’s how stacked the position is right now. Lin is good, and he might even be great someday, but he still has quite a bit of ways to go.

First of I never thought he was all that great, always said he was a product of the system and without it he is at best Raymond Felton. And we saw it last night and also in the game against Boston. He doesnt struggle against the Heat, he struggles against “Heat” or pressure. And guess what in the playoffs that’s the kind of level you play against constantly. Now although he sucked he wasn’t my problem, the failed adjustments or lack there of is my problem and that’s on the Coach. And this is a coach who’s MO is pg or bust. So if the pg is hurt or gets shutdown then the whole offense struggles. Are u kidding me? This coach always has something going on. At first it was he didn’t have a good team, oh and Amare came, then it was not having enough, then Melo came, then it was they don’t play defense then Tyson came, then it’s he doesn’t have a pg, the Lin came OK what other excuse do u need. Whatever you guys say, the Heat were beaten by Dallas last year and we don’t have much Talent as the Heat but we have more talent than Dallas. What more do u need? Howard.

BigBlueAL:
Oh and Lin sucks now too.I mean how dare he struggles against the best team in the league.

The one current problem with Jeremy Lin is that because of all the attention he is getting teams are really getting up for Knick games and coming at us hard. The Heat have been dominant over the last couple weeks and have barely gotten any press so they came into last nights game with something to prove and gave playoff effort against a tired, less talented Knick team. We lose to the Heat, more often than not under normal circumstances, give them more rest and something to prove and we will lose 9 times out of 10 and so will almost anyone else in the league.

Ben R:
The one current problem with Jeremy Lin is that because of all the attention he is getting teams are really getting up for Knick games and coming at us hard. The Heat have been dominant over the last couple weeks and have barely gotten any press so they came into last nights game with something to prove and gave playoff effort against a tired, less talented Knick team. We lose to the Heat, more often than not under normal circumstances, give them more rest and something to prove and we will lose 9 times out of 10 and so will almost anyone else in the league.

Where is all this love for the triangle coming from? It wins championships? No great competitors like Jordan and Kobe win championships. Sure you have your Jackson Lakers/Bulls but you also had your Rambis T-wolves. The triangle is crazy complicated and puts a lot of decision making pressure on each guy on the court. If you think the Knicks have five guys (let alone a couple more on the bench) that can read and react to a defense in unison great, hire Phil for a year and have at it. We’re having a hard enough time not turning the ball over running pick and roll schemes that most high schoolers can handle. You really think throwing the most complicated offensive system in the sport out there is going to help?

Lin is certainly a good point guard, but people pointing to his high PER and acting like he’s already a top 5 PG is ridiculous. I actually agree with Brian’s list, maybe I’d add on Curry and Rubio ahead of Lin, but even then that leaves you at around the 15th best PG in the league. Every single one of those point guards has had a better 10 games stretch than Lin has had a career too. Lowry was nearly averaging a triple double on a nightly basis early in the season, and he didn’t even make it to the all star team over a 37 year old point guard who plays no defense on a losing team. That’s how stacked the position is right now. Lin is good, and he might even be great someday, but he still has quite a bit of ways to go.

I’d add Curry, too, if he’s a point. Is he a point? I like Curry more as a 2. But sure, if you are thinking of him as a point, I’d put him ahead of Lin. Rubio is definitely very close, too, I should have at least mentioned him. I take Lin over Rubio (right this second), but is surely a close call.

And yeah, the overall message is “he’s a very good player, but not at the top level of a stacked current group of PGs” and I totally agree with that.

I was thinking during last night’s game that once it came down to our bench vs. their bench, we could turn the game around. But one of the many scary things about this year’s version of the Heat is that their bench isn’t bad – Battier, Haslem, Cole and Miller – esp. compared to last year. I just don’t see how anyone takes them out in the playoffs, barring major injuries.

I’m sorry but enough with the excuses, we call ourselves smart here, stop the oh the Heat were rested crap, watch the game again and see what happened. For me I blame the coach. If your focal point of offense gets shutdown isn’t it common sense to change your attack. And no the heat are not all awesome and all world either, watch their half court offense. They can be beat.

This is the least coherent board I’ve seen in a long time. Glad I pulled out of the blogging contest with a sore wrist so I can get some rest over the break and come back strong.

Players are always more important than the system – NBA coaches don’t make a big impact, period, unless they are really, really bad and keep their best players on the bench (i.e. Kevin Love last year in Minny).

Felton? He was the same player before NY as he was in NY. By the eyes, by the numbers you name it.

Gideon Zaga:
First of I never thought he was all that great, always said he was a product of the system and without it he is at best Raymond Felton. And we saw it last night and also in the game against Boston. He doesnt struggle against the Heat, he struggles against “Heat” or pressure. And guess what in the playoffs that’s the kind of level you play against constantly.Now although he sucked he wasn’t my problem,the failed adjustments or lack there of is my problem and that’s on the Coach. And this is a coach who’s MO is pg or bust. So if the pg is hurt or gets shutdown then the whole offense struggles. Are u kidding me?This coach always has something going on. At first it was he didn’t have a good team,oh and Amare came, then it was not having enough,then Melo came, then it was they don’t play defense then Tyson came,then it’s he doesn’t have a pg,the Lin came OK what other excuse do u need.Whatever you guys say, the Heat were beaten by Dallas last year and we don’t have much Talent as the Heat but we have more talent than Dallas. What more do u need? Howard.

This is what gets me about this site. Lose at home to the horrible Hornets and Nets (although the Nets loss was somewhat understandable considering DWill going nuts) and no big deal. Lose at Miami on the 2nd of a back-to-back and the coach needs to get fired and Lin sucks.

I feel like there was one major problem that pretty much settled the game in the Heat’s favor: running screen rolls with Chandler. The play you get taught to make when a team traps is to have the roll man pop out and receive the pass for an open shot. Channing Frye does this all the time with Nash. It makes it so the dribbler (Lin in this case) doesn’t have to pass over to guys. He has an angle. He can see a target.

We’ve been able to avoid that since our strong defense has allowed us to run more against trapping teams (preventing them from getting set), and since Lin’s quickness has allowed him to get around or through traps against slower big men. Lin couldn’t do that against the Heat. Only the very quickest and strongest can — maybe Chris Paul and Deron Williams.

The problem is Chandler can’t shoot, so he has to roll, and Lin is left in no man’s land with two long, strong and athletic defenders draped over him. What the Knicks should have been doing all night is having Melo as the main screener. He pops out off the screen and catches Lin’s pass, and the Knicks now have a 4 on 3 situation. The defense can rotate to defend Melo’s jump shot, but Melo is a good enough passer to find the open man.

We started off the game with a couple of these plays, but it seemed then the braintrust (Lin and D’Antoni deserve blame for this) went back to using Chandler as the screener. Lin had a ton of turnovers, and by the second half had pretty much given up on running the offense, instead handing it off for an Anthony isolation.

ess-dog:
Ironically, last night would’ve been a good night to feed Melo in the post where he can be dominant in the halfcourt.

Aside from that, we just didn’t get back on transition D.Shump would’ve helped that and I guarantee, kept us in that game.

Amare is a big problem.I just don’t know where he fits in between Chandler and Melo.I’m one of those people that think he’s still most effective playing center on a running team since he has no post game and now, can’t hit jumpers.Working on the pnr with Lin will help, but going against pfs, he’ll be less effective than in his Phoenix years.And of course, his defense is a detriment.

It’s sad because I love the guy and what he did for this team, yet I don’t see a place for him now.

His defense has been passable the last few nights.

Miami Heat offense after Knicks scores:

44 possessions: 36 points

That’s pretty damn good.

Done talking about Amar’e. He was open quite a few times, Lin’s issues last night well documented. He’ll get Amar’e involved.

BigBlueAL:
This is what gets me about this site.Lose at home to the horrible Hornets and Nets (although the Nets loss was somewhat understandable considering DWill going nuts) and no big deal.Lose at Miami on the 2nd of a back-to-back and the coach needs to get fired and Lin sucks.

I know, it’s unbelievable. I like the level of discussion on this board compared to others, but in this regard it’s worse than the Mickey boards and everywhere else.

The problem is Chandler can’t shoot, so he has to roll, and Lin is left in no man’s land with two long, strong and athletic defenders draped over him. What the Knicks should have been doing all night is having Melo as the main screener. He pops out off the screen and catches Lin’s pass, and the Knicks now have a 4 on 3 situation.

I think it’s a really good point.

Melo’s been a better screener than Amar’e this year but they both should be great weapons in the PnR. Melo’s never played with a PnR point guard. Amar’e need to mix up all the slips he does with some solid screens. I don’t know why he hasn’t set stronger screens this year.

That’s an aside to the real issue of no practice time. The reps just aren’t there to change on the fly. Chandler PnR has been the bread and butter since Lin came aboard and one of the few things everyone on the floor is comfortable spacing at all times.

The most amazing thing about this run, about sticking in with the Heat and having a chance to beat them heading into the fourth quarter, is not just that guys haven’t played with another (entire lineups are new), but 90 percent of the offense (or playbook) can’t be used (go and watch the Suns “sets”)

The Knicks beat the Mavericks without running more than a handful plays. That’s truly unbelievable.

So much of the MDA offense, a lot of which couldn’t be used with Shumpert and Douglas as point guard, still hasn’t been implemented.

This team has been winning on pure talent. When the reps start to accumulate, guys start to recognize each other’s spots and feel out their games, that’s when you really start to run teams out of the building.

Countless times the last three games where their were plays being left on the floor just because guys didn’t recognize the situation.

We all agree the Heat treated last night like a playoff game, the excellent beat reporter Brian Windhorst described it as follows: “The unprecedented energy the Heat started this game with — the starters’ chests were heaving and their faces dripped sweat just five minutes into the game as a result of unusual early-game effort — said it.”

That’s important because Windhorst follows the team every day and has always been very honest in his reporting.

We are compelled to say the Heat are a great defensive team, and they excel defending the high pick and roll Lin, the primary way Lin produced coming into the contest.

I know it’s been a really long time since Knicks fans watched a successful playoff team. It’s been much longer since they witnessed a young playoff team, or one with a young star with little-to-no playoff experience.

What Knicks fans don’t seem to understand is that virtually all star or superstar players meet this kind of challenge in their careers. It’s really the second to last challenge they must overcome to become a true superstar.

It’s one they most often face in the first round of the playoffs as a low seed against an excellent defensive team, often with a great man wing or guard defender.

Just a whole new level of intensity, physicality, athleticism that the body and mind have to adjust to. Great offensive players are accustomed to being the aggressor. That’s why the challenge of beating an overly aggressive defender or team defense, one with aforementioned attributes, is such a unique thing.

Players are always more important than the system – NBA coaches don’t make a big impact, period, unless they are really, really bad and keep their best players on the bench (i.e. Kevin Love last year in Minny).

I think this is a lot more true for teams with top 5 players, they can act as coaches on the floor. when you have a team like this one, with 11 guys deserving of rotation minutes but no one (probably) who can put the team on his back game after game, I think a coach becomes a lot more important and I haven’t seen much evidence that D’Antoni is the man for the job.

ideally Baron will emerge and take over the starting PG job, and Lin will come off the bench for big minutes where the other team can’t really key on him.

jon abbey:
ruruland, you can add Kobe to your list, airballing shot after shot as his team was eliminated by the Malone/Stockton Jazz his rookie year.

Yeah, Kobe was awful his first 30 or so playoff games.

Didn’t mention Melo but after getting shutdown by Trenton Hassel and Bruce Bowen as a 19 and 20 year old he was a completely different player by the time he faced the Spurs in ’06. (Don’t mention the Clippers series because the nuggets had arguably the worst playoff roster ever assembled considering the injuries it had at the time, and yes, the Clippers were also a very good defensive team that year)

jon abbey: I think this is a lot more true for teams with top 5 players, they can act as coaches on the floor. when you have a team like this one, with 11 guys deserving of rotation minutes but no one (probably) who can put the team on his back game after game, I think a coach becomes a lot more important and I haven’t seen much evidence that D’Antoni is the man for the job.

ideally Baron will emerge and take over the starting PG job, and Lin will come off the bench for big minutes where the other team can’t really key on him.

I’m a big Baron fan, especially as a guy who feeds off good situations, great crowds and in big games. But even at his best he was not a great pick and roll player nor was he a sound decision maker.

I think coming off the bench with guys like JR Smith and Novak is perfect for him. He can sort of freestyle the offense with those guys.

But there’s no way he’s taking over the starting spot because, honestly, Lin’s first ten games are probably as good if not better than any ten game stretch Davis has ever had.

Optimally, MDA uses Lin as he used to use Nash when they had Dragic, around 30 minutes a game. Many of Lin’s issues prior to last night stemmed from tired legs, that’s why the turnovers occurred in bunches.

I like Baron at around 20 minutes giving it his full motor. Baron has motor issues when he’s overextended.

Here’s the full upload of last night’s game. Same things still stand out to me that haven’t been talked about ad nasuem are the missed offensive chances, the lack of extra passing and holding of the ball or forced drives by Chandler (yes Chandler see 7:36), Amar’e Fields and of course Lin, when there were guys open that led to a lot of the turnovers and rushed shots.

Really, half the list? I love Lin, but some people are straight up worshiping him to a level that is beyond reason. If you disagree with Rose, Paul, Deron, Nash or Westbrook, I don’t know what to say. And that’s half the list right there. So basically you’re saying that you’re prepared to say that for just this year you’d rather have Lin than Rondo. Rather Lin than Tony Parker. These are guys who have won championships, who have been top 3 players on championship type teams and both are still playing at an elite level now. And you’re prepared to take a guy over them who has 11 career starts. Granted those 11 starts have been phenomenal , but 11 games! Of those 11, exactly 2 have been against good teams (3 if you want to count the Lakers). In one of those games he looked completely lost. In the other he played great. Are you really ready to say you’d rather have that guy than Rondo or Parker?

thenamestsam: Really, half the list? I love Lin, but some people are straight up worshiping him to a level that is beyond reason. If you disagree with Rose, Paul, Deron, Nash or Westbrook, I don’t know what to say. And that’s half the list right there. So basically you’re saying that you’re prepared to say that for just this year you’d rather have Lin than Rondo. Rather Lin than Tony Parker. These are guys who have won championships, who have been top 3 players on championship type teams and both are still playing at an elite level now. And you’re prepared to take a guy over them who has 11 career starts. Granted those 11 starts have been phenomenal , but 11 games! Of those 11, exactly 2 have been against good teams(3 if you want to count the Lakers). In one of those games he looked completely lost. In the other he played great. Are you really ready to say you’d rather have that guy than Rondo or Parker?

I don’t agree with Irving, Lowry or Lawson. So not quite half. I think he can be at Tony Parker’s level at some point this year (in this system).

Ok going to go through some of the missed offensive chances that the this team can and should eventually correct.

7:58 Lin breaks down defense feeds to Amar’e, Amar’e fumbles ball and allows Lebron to come over top and gain possession. A clean catch and he can go up and finish

9:48 Lin runs a great pick and roll with Chandler, Bosh comes out too high on the anticipated help, Amar’e gets free on back cut but against doesn’t catch the ball cleanly on what should have been a strong alley-oop and momentum changing play.

Again, if you have enough offensive weapons YOU CAN make the Heat pay for being over-aggressive. The Knicks just missed their chances.

12:42 Fields drives to basket on the right wing and once again the Heat are over-aggressive attacking the penetration. Melo is wide open cutting to the basket being Joel Anthony but Fields sees him too late.

13:45 just a missed dunk by Amar’e where the ball slips out of his hands.

22:18 Davis has a wide open JR SMith on another back-cut and throws it five feet over his head

42:30 Lin has 3 on 2 break but charges into Battier instead of making the easy pass to Melo.

All of these guys are older than Lin except Westbrook who is the same age. Parker is 29 and a mediocre shooter reliant on quickness- if he’s better than Lin he won’t be for long. All have the benefit of more NBA experience, training camps with their teams, etc. Assuming Lin’s stats over 21 games and 500+ minutes (not as small a sample size as most think) are representative of his skill level, I find it hard to make a case for any of these guys over him save Westbrook, who for all his hype and potential appears to be about even with Lin right now by the numbers.

57:25 Amar’e stares right at a wide-open Melo in the corner, instead turns round hands the ball off to Lin who then passes the ball to Melo, allowing Lebron to recover.

59:28 Lin uses his strength to get to rim but forces up shot with Fields wide open in corner with the defense converging. I thought Lin’s decision-making was more troubling than his inability to adjust to the Heat’s length and athleticism

Here is a historical comparison for Lin: Ray Williams. Roughly same height, same weight. Emerged at the same age. Great penetration. Quick hands. Some defensive liabilities. Since I doubt that Lin will have the same off-the-court issues as Ray, I have high hopes for his future.

ruruland: Bruno Almeida: no man, we’ll have practice time and we’ll gel and Anthony will prove he’s in the same level as LeBron and we’ll beat them next time!!!
i’d love to hear someone try to defend your position that reps together, practice together and training camp together doesn’t matter.

I think Bruno is actually Allen Iverson. Practice? We talking bout practice? How is Lin gonna find a wide open Amare with more practice? We can’t get better with practice.

ruruland:
Here’s the full upload of last night’s game. Same things still stand out to me that haven’t been talked about ad nasuem are the missed offensive chances, the lack of extra passing and holding of the ball or forced drives by Chandler (yes Chandler see 7:36), Amar’e Fields and of course Lin, when there were guys open that led to a lot of the turnovers and rushed shots.

ephus:
Here is a historical comparison for Lin:Ray Williams.Roughly same height, same weight.Emerged at the same age.Great penetration.Quick hands.Some defensive liabilities.Since I doubt that Lin will have the same off-the-court issues as Ray, I have high hopes for his future.

Absolutely not Rubio. He’s an absolute non-scoring threat. He doesn’t finish at the rim well at all (48% for the year), 3 long two’s a game when he only hits ‘em a third of the time, and is not really a 3 point threat. He’s definitely entertaining to watch, though. Rubio, however, is not a threat to score off the pick. Once he develops a good jumpshot (think… Deron Williams’ level), then he’ll really open his game up because that’ll prevent his man from cheating on the screens and going under.

On another note, it is surprising to see that Westbrook is one of the better pull-up shooters at the 1 spot.

Not sure how reliable this guy is but http://twitter.com/#!/christomasson: “JR Smith told me expects to pick up 2.5m player option next year-‘That’s my plan If everything keeps going well God willing I’ll be (in NY)'”

Matt Park: Absolutely not Rubio. He’s an absolute non-scoring threat. He doesn’t finish at the rim well at all (48% for the year), 3 long two’s a game when he only hits ‘em a third of the time, and is not really a 3 point threat. He’s definitely entertaining to watch, though. Rubio, however, is not a threat to score off the pick. Once he develops a good jumpshot (think… Deron Williams’ level), then he’ll really open his game up because that’ll prevent his man from cheating on the screens and going under.

On another note, it is surprising to see that Westbrook is one of the better pull-up shooters at the 1 spot.

Rubio does not try to be a scorer. He’s one of the few PGs in this era who understands the position. He’s a distributor.
Here are some stats back at you.
Third in overall assists. Fourth in AP48M. Fifth in APG.

SJK:
Not sure how reliable this guy is but http://twitter.com/#!/christomasson: “JR Smith told me expects to pick up 2.5m player option next year-’That’s my plan If everything keeps going well God willing I’ll be (in NY)’”

That would be great

That would be freaking awesome. Would love for this team to comeback next season. Would like to be able to add another decent big man for the bench and a PG if BD doesnt pan out but other than that would be great for this team to have a regular full season together.

Of course the big question will be who is coaching the team. Unlike many here I would love for D’Antoni to return and have a full training camp and regular season with this group. What happens the rest of this season I assume will determine his fate.

SJK:
Not sure how reliable this guy is but http://twitter.com/#!/christomasson: “JR Smith told me expects to pick up 2.5m player option next year-’That’s my plan If everything keeps going well God willing I’ll be (in NY)’”

That would be great

I’ll believe it when I see it.
JR Smith really helps this team a lot. The knicks should do everything they can to keep him as part of the core.

If JR Smith exercised his player option for next year, I think the Knicks would then have Early Bird rights for him during the following year. that would allow the Knicks to pay Smith the MLE, without utilizing the MLE. Still seems like Smith would be leaving money on the table, but if he does, it would be great for the Knicks.

@94 Rubio vs. Lin is not really an apples to apples comparison – Lin seems to be a much better scorer but Rubio is already a really good defender, which Lin isn’t.

@83 this kind of comparison by the #s is way, way too early. Lin might keep it up or he might not. 500 minutes isn’t 200 but it isn’t 1,500 either. David Lee outplayed Kevin Garnett for 50 games his soph year and got a few people excited but it didn’t mean he was the best PF in the league, as we later discovered.

Plus Lin’s role is about to change, the competition will get better, etc. Also just in that group, Lowry is a much better defender and Parker has been good on that side, too.

While I’m piling on, AST% is a very telling stat – it basically just tells you a PG has the ball on almost every posession, not whether he’s a great assist man.

The most promising thing is that he has room to improve – the TO #s have been awful, and he’s not killing people with an unsustainable 3-point %. For a young player with very little experience I expect the TOs to improve, and the shot could, too.

Instead of just repeating the mantra that everyone missed out on a great player because of cultural blinders, Beck did some real reporting to capture how and why Lin improved from high school, through college and especially in the last seven months.

Not in the article, but I have to think that if Golden State had known what they had in Lin, they would have amnestied Biedrins and kept him. If they had not obtained DeAndre Young, they would have been able to trade one of Ellis or Curry for the missing big man.

Instead of just repeating the mantra that everyone missed out on a great player because of cultural blinders, Beck did some real reporting to capture how and why Lin improved from high school, through college and especially in the last seven months.

Not in the article, but I have to think that if Golden State had known what they had in Lin, they would have amnestied Biedrins and kept him.If they had not obtained DeAndre Young, they would have been able to trade one of Ellis or Curry for the missing big man.

Great article. That changes the entire perspective. Instead of a great talent that was never given an opportunity, he was really unequipped to play in the NBA, but his perseverance enabled him to take advantage of the opportunity he had – being on an NBA bench.

hoolahoop: Rubio does not try to be a scorer. He’s one of the few PGs in this era who understands the position. He’s a distributor.
Here are some stats back at you.
Third in overall assists. Fourth in AP48M. Fifth in APG.

Faulty reasoning. Just because the PG is primarily needed to distribute the ball doesn’t mean it’s bad to have one who’s a talented, efficient scorer. PGs who can’t score the ball hurt their team. Just ask Jason Kidd, who never ran an elite offense despite being considered the best distributor in the league until Nash went to PHX.

hoolahoop: Great article. That changes the entire perspective. Instead of a great talent that was never given an opportunity, he was really unequipped to play in the NBA, but his perseverance enabled him to take advantage of the opportunity he had – being on an NBA bench.

Probably not accurate perspective though. Lin’s rebounds/steals/blocks rate were extremely high in college, especially against top tier teams, and generally players with that sort of athleticism are given plenty of rope to hang themselves with. Not Lin. Generally players with tons of natural talent are given the benefit of the doubt and opportunity to grow their skills by being given meaningful minutes in real games against actual NBA players.

SJK:
Not sure how reliable this guy is but http://twitter.com/#!/christomasson: “JR Smith told me expects to pick up 2.5m player option next year-’That’s my plan If everything keeps going well God willing I’ll be (in NY)’”

That would be great

That’s INCREDIBLE news.
Guys, Chris Tomasson, the guy reporting this, was the last good beat reporter for the Nuggets(Benjamin Hoffman, who appears in the Off The Dribble blog @ NYT is horrible)

Tomasson used to write for the now defunct Rocky Mountain News. He was all over the Melo trade and was the guy who both broke news in Denver and delivered stories on the inside dynamics of the organization under Stan Kroenke.

Anyway, JR is really an interesting cat. Money is not everything to this kid. A chance to play at the Garden on a great team near his home and family might be worth more than an extra few million.

JR has never been able to enjoy himself, never had a coach who liked him. So that may be playing a part as well.

This might be the second most important story of the year.

JR is the key to bringing home a chip the next 3 years. Now it’s up to MDA to cultivate a great relationship with him, get him to around 30mpg

If JR Smith exercised his player option for next year, I think the Knicks would then have Early Bird rights for him during the following year. that would allow the Knicks to pay Smith the MLE, without utilizing the MLE. Still seems like Smith would be leaving money on the table, but if he does, it would be great for the Knicks.

You are correct. They’d be able to pay him the MLE despite the fact that they would not have the MLE available normally (as they’ll likely be over the luxury cap). So yeah, if Smith is willing to take a pay cut for next season, he’ll get roughly his expected salary the following year (as you figure in the current economic climate, Smith is roughly a MLE player). It all depends on whether Smith is willing to take the paycut for next season. Hopefully he will.

Of course the big question will be who is coaching the team. Unlike many here I would love for D’Antoni to return and have a full training camp and regular season with this group. What happens the rest of this season I assume will determine his fate.

Do you really think that many folks here don’t want D’Antoni back next year? I never got that vibe. I know I certainly want him back (unless Phil Jackson wants to coach the team, of course).

Brian Cronin: Do you really think that many folks here don’t want D’Antoni back next year? I never got that vibe. I know I certainly want him back (unless Phil Jackson wants to coach the team, of course).

I would love to see him gone if there’s a good alternative, I’m still hoping the mega-offer for Carlisle rumor will become reality. what has D’Antoni done since getting to NY that makes anyone think he’s the man for the job?

I would love to see him gone if there’s a good alternative, I’m still hoping the mega-offer for Carlisle rumor will become reality. what has D’Antoni done since getting to NY that makes anyone think he’s the man for the job?

Oh sure, Carlisle I’d take, too. But I don’t see him leaving Dallas. What kind of mega-offer could New York offer that Cuban wouldn’t match?

hoolahoop: Rubio does not try to be a scorer. He’s one of the few PGs in this era who understands the position. He’s a distributor.
Here are some stats back at you.
Third in overall assists. Fourth in AP48M.

formido: Probably not accurate perspective though. Lin’s rebounds/steals/blocks rate were extremely high in college, especially against top tier teams, and generally players with that sort of athleticism are given plenty of rope to hang themselves with. Not Lin. Generally players with tons of natural talent are given the benefit of the doubt and opportunity to grow their skills by being given meaningful minutes in real games against actual NBA players.

Fifth in APG.

No, I’m not saying that he doesn’t try to score. Rubio CAN’T score. Ricky Rubio may be a pass-first point guard, but it doesn’t change that he cannot score efficiently. On the pick-and-roll, not being a scoring threat is a major liability. Yes, he is an excellent passer and distributor but he’s not quite the point guard that he can be…
And yes, I do agree that he knows the nuances of the position well. Seeing him run the break or decide what to do after penetrating is…something wonderful.

Caleb:
@94 Rubio vs. Lin is not really an apples to apples comparison – Lin seems to be a much better scorer but Rubio is already a really good defender, which Lin isn’t.

I do agree with you, but that was not really the point I was trying to make. I merely said that I wouldn’t take Rubio over Lin because Rubio can’t score.

Brian Cronin: Oh sure, Carlisle I’d take, too. But I don’t see him leaving Dallas. What kind of mega-offer could New York offer that Cuban wouldn’t match?

I can’t find the story about it from a month or two ago, but the rumor was something like 5 years/$40M. no idea if Cuban would match that or if Carlisle would prefer the new challenge of coaching his home state Knicks (he grew up in upstate NY), but I hope Dolan at least tries if he can.

The thing with Dallas is that they are all about saving up this year to splurge this offseason. So it seems hard to believe that they’d make a big deal out of trying to get Dwight Howard and Deron Williams and then not even hold on to their awesome coach, ya know?

By the way, Carlisle also played for the Knicks, if you want a connection!

I’d certainly be happy with Carlisle (as he is really an excellent coach – definitely one of the top 2-3 coaches in the league right now), but I just don’t see it happening.

Brooks
Spoelstra
Karl
Skiles
Doc
Vogel
Collins
Monty (I could be way off on Monty, but I am really impressed with him)
D’Antoni
Avery
EDITED TO ADD: Nate (I was convinced I should have had him on here initially)

in the next tier.

And Jax in the final tier with Larry “I don’t seem to know what I am doing at all” Drew.

I’m not thinking coaching changes or personnel changes right now. We have a finished product for this year that should get us into at the very least a second round thriller; beyond that, who knows?. No coach ever to patrol the sidelines makes this team a favorite vs. the Heat. The NBA is a players league, always has been. It’s up to the players.

@119 huh, that comment came out horribly format-wise… lol
Really messed up there.

hoolahoop: Take a look at the top ten names of the list you linked. That’s your standard of excellence?

The link I provided was to substantiate the statistics that I used.

Anyway, I do agree that I am overrating him…but I think that he has the tools to become an All-Star caliber point guard if given a few years under MDA. He is not a bad man-to-man defender. In fact, he is quite good at contesting shots and staying in front of his man. He’s also been taking close to a charge a game since beginning of his hot streak, which is great… He’s great in the pick-and-roll and has shown the ability to break his man down, although it remains to be seen if he can do it consistently… His jumpshot is actually not bad at all, if he continues his current hot streak. He has been knocking his mid-range opportunities albeit in an extremely limited size sample… He has to learn how to finish better, but I think that’ll come with experience and practice as he develops a better left hand.

He has pretty obv. trouble rolling through screens. He simply is not strong enough to go through them yet and chase a good off-the-ball player like Deron Williams through screens or roll through the ball screen in a pick-and-roll… He has a thing or two to learn from Chalmers and Cole on pick-and-roll defense. Tbh, he looks VERY bad moving without the ball and he needs to learn how to do that… Moving off the ball puts pressure on the defense because guys need to keep track of the player, and learning this skill will allow Lin to not handle the ball every possession, cause switches, and get in better positions to score. Finally, his turnovers…. yada, yada rookie mistakes, etc. but I think he’ll improve those immensely as his career progresses…

As for top five coaches, I’d choose Rick Carlisle, Gregg Popovich (AKA extraneous G), Thibs (the Bulls has improved IMMENSELY this season and I am very impressed with him and his coaching staff as well as the players), Doc Rivers, and… the last spot is a tossup but I think I would go with Adelman…

I’d move Ron Jeremy down a tier… and put McMillan in that second tier as well.

Not a big George Karl fan myself. Nor Skiles, for that matter. I suppose one can’t really argue with their results… but I just don’t care much for their styles. Based on that admittedly personal preference, I’d drop both from my second tier.

Lin was completely outplayed by Mario Chalmers. There are lots of gyus at that PG level around the league. Let’s not get too carried away with 2 weeks of great basketball. The league will adjust to him, and the question yet to be answered is, can he adjust back? I am optimistic, but would trade him for the any of the top 10 pgs in the league in a heartbeat, just on the basis of there being no uncertainty with those proven products. Lin has upside, but he has significant downside too.

I’d be happy with Jackson, I guess. I worry about the fact that he seemed to lose interest last year with the Lakers. After losing that first tight game v Dallas, LAL seemed to give up a little.

If I could pick any coach though, it would be Popovich. I don’t buy that it was just great talent that lead Manu and Parker to stardom. Pop is amazing at keeping guys in their roles. This allows young guys to stay on the floor and avoid mistakes. Parker especially had a lot of issues early, but Pop stayed with him. I hated the guy for a long time after the 99 finals, but man, I think he is a great coach.

If D’Antoni stands at the dividing line between that top class and the second class, I’d add McMillan to my list of top coaches and take Thibodeau off. Thibodeau is just another Van Gundy or Scott Skiles. He gets his dudes to play tough defense, but he doesn’t see the big picture. He runs his dudes into the ground in the regular season (not unlike MDA I guess) and isn’t particularly creative on offense. Further, he’s never faced the challenge of dealing with less cooperative players. Thibs was gifted great veteran leadership in Boston, then had Rose along with a lot of players who make $s off their hard work. He’s never had to motivate his team.

Carlisle, IMO used to be same type of coach. He’d claw for every win, and then his teams wouldn’t bring it in the playoffs. He was a great Xs and Os coach, but didn’t bring that calmness and confidence that Pop or Jax brought.

McMillan’s teams often outperform expectations. Two years ago, if I told you the Blazers would be over .500 without Oden or Brandon Roy, you’d have called me crazy. Back when he coached Seattle, the Sonics got to 52 wins with Luke Ridnour as their 3rd best player.

As far as the second class (MDA equals) I’d put Karl (obviously not happening with Anthony here) and Rivers. I also do like Monty Williams from what little I’ve watched of his teams.

It’s lame you guys are even talking about trading Lin after one night. Fucking hard to please fans with no patience or loyalty. There’s still half the season to go, and y’all are already stepping out of the now. wtf.

dogrufus: Faulty reasoning.Just because the PG is primarily needed to distribute the ball doesn’t mean it’s bad to have one who’s a talented, efficient scorer.PGs who can’t score the ball hurt their team.Just ask Jason Kidd, who never ran an elite offense despite being considered the best distributor in the league until Nash went to PHX.

Are you saying Jason Kidd is not a good PG?
Anyway, I disagree. The role of the PG is not to score. It’s to get the team to score; making everyone better. It’s a higher, more important role. Nash is a great example. Magic Johnson is a better one. He could have easily averaged 25 a game. He often averaged mid-high teens. Magic knew his role was to distribute and facilitate. Most current day PG’s, and fans, don’t understand this.
Back to Jason Kidd – he’s often referred to as one of the only guys who can impact a game without scoring a point.

I should temper that with “salary cap aside.” Since we can’t afford most of the guys on the list, the point is moot.

From the other direction, if you offered Lin straight up for any of the PGs on the list, how many takers do you get? Does Phx take him straight up for Nash? Minny for Rubio? Heck, Washington for Wall? Milwaukee for Jennings? Sacramento for Evans? GS for Curry? Indiana for Collison? I’m not sure that any of those teams make that trade.

hoolahoop: Are you saying Jason Kidd is not a good PG?
Anyway, I disagree. The role of the PG is not to score. It’s to get the team to score; making everyone better. It’s a higher, more important role. Nash is a great example. Magic Johnson is a better one. He could have easily averaged 25 a game. He often averaged mid-high teens. Magic knew his role was to distribute and facilitate. Most current day PG’s, and fans, don’t understand this.
Back to Jason Kidd – he’s often referred to as one of the only guys who can impact a game without scoring a point.

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Kidd was a fine PG, but like ROndo, his lack of scoring ability prevented him from ever running a great offense.

If Kidd was such a great orchestrator despite lack of scoring ability, show me when he ever ran a top 5 offense in his prime. Kidd was a very good but flawed PG, and never would have been capable of running offenses as efficient as the 2000’s Suns or Showtime Lakers because he couldn’t shoot or finish at the basket.

I think Indiana and Milwaukee would both take Lin for their point guards. Sacramento, maybe, as well. Washington wouldn’t, just because it would look horrible. GS wouldn’t. Minnesota wouldn’t. And Phoenix wouldn’t (they’d think about it, though).

By the way, as for McMillan, I guess he should have been on the second tier. My “problem,” as it were is that I just don’t see him doing much as far as Xs and Os go (what I like about Monty, for instance, is that I do see that about him – he seems to be able to teach defense really well – I mean, Nate got out-xed and oed by Alvin freakin’ Gentry a few years back, for crying out loud, and Gentry is far from a great Xs and Os coach), but I can certainly allow that I could be underestimating just how great of a player’s coach Nate is, so fair enough, let me put him on that second tier, as well.

Brian Cronin: I think Indiana and Milwaukee would both take Lin for their point guards. Sacramento, maybe, as well. Washington wouldn’t, just because it would look horrible. GS wouldn’t. Minnesota wouldn’t. And Phoenix wouldn’t (they’d think about it, though).

The hard thing is to separate the hype ($) from the talent. PR $ aside, not sure Milwaukee, Indiana, Sacramento or Washington is convinced that Lin is the better player in the long run. Collison is probably the most doubtful of the pack. Jennings has great games and stinkers, as Lin has and will have going forward. Evans and Wall play for terrible teams, it would be interesting to see how they would fare with a team as talented as the Knicks.

Z-man:
Lin was completely outplayed by Mario Chalmers. There are lots of gyus at that PG level around the league. Let’s not get too carried away with 2 weeks of great basketball. The league will adjust to him, and the question yet to be answered is, can he adjust back? I am optimistic, but would trade him for the any of the top 10 pgs in the league in a heartbeat, just on the basis of there being no uncertainty with those proven products. Lin has upside, but he has significant downside too.

Again, a lot of great players in this league have been “outplayed” by strong defensive players on good defensive teams in the playoffs.

Last night was a playoff game by the Heat. It’s less about the league adjusting to Lis as it is Lin adjusting to the type of aggressive, athletic intensity good defensive players on good to great defensive teams can deliver.

Theres clearly a line that Lib has established, for a great defensive team with a good defensive wing had no answers for Lin. (Dallas)

I completely agree with the poster talking about loyalty and extreme overreactions to the ebb and flow.

hoolahoop: Magic Johnson is a better one. He could have easily averaged 25 a game.

I think the key though is that Magic could have done that. When you aren’t a threat to score, the defense doesn’t have to give you attention, and no matter how splendid a passer you are, you’re just not going to be able to consistently get the defense off balance enough to have open teammates to pass to. Kidd’s strengths were always in the open court and on defense. Kidd’s rebounding, man defense and steals were just as much a part of what made him special as his passing. The Nets’ halfcourt offense was kind of crap even in those years when they were very good — Their best year offensively they had the 17th best offense.

The hard thing is to separate the hype ($) from the talent. PR $ aside, not sure Milwaukee, Indiana, Sacramento or Washington is convinced that Lin is the better player in the long run. Collison is probably the most doubtful of the pack. Jennings has great games and stinkers, as Lin has and will have going forward. Evans and Wall play for terrible teams, it would be interesting to see how they would fare with a team as talented as the Knicks.

My thing with Milwaukee is that they would think Jennings is on his way out, so they’d jump at getting Lin for him as locking Lin down is better than losing Jennings in a year. Sacramento, as well, seems to be souring on Evans, which is why it is a possibility. Collison, as you note, is the one guy where I think a team would make the deal just because they feel Lin is better.

Z-man:
I should temper that with “salary cap aside.” Since we can’t afford most of the guys on the list, the point is moot.

From the other direction, if you offered Lin straight up for any of the PGs on the list, how many takers do you get? Does Phx take him straight up for Nash? Minny for Rubio? Heck, Washington for Wall? Milwaukee for Jennings? Sacramento for Evans? GS for Curry? Indiana for Collison? I’m not sure that any of those teams make that trade.

While it’s frustrating that we’re even having this conversation after one bad game in 10… (how many bad games have we watched from Anthony and STAT this year??), I can’t help but reply.

John Wall and Brandon Jennings are terrible. Jennings was hot early, but has successfully tugged his TS% down to 50.2%, worse than Bruce Bowen 2.0 (Mbah a Moute). Sadly, that number is still a career best for him. Wall has subpar vision, is not deceptive off the dribble, and is a poor finisher at the rim and can’t shoot. He is just super fast. That’s his only talent. It’s a nice talent — being able to race past guys off misses/steals — but it doesn’t make a guy starter caliber for a good team. His realistic peak, if he really worked on his shot and didn’t shoot so much, is Mike Conley. His realistic floor is maybe TJ Ford. I would rather have Luke Ridnour over either.

The only thing that could potentially hold back Indy from trading Collison, who is below average for a starting PG, is the small sample size. If Lin plays another two weeks like he has the last two, any one of those teams except possibly Minnesota, would make the deal. If NJ is still in a bind re: re-signing D-Will, my guess is he’d be available for Lin too.

For what it is worth, I do not believe Z-Man is suggesting actual trades. He is using trades as a way to gauge how good Lin is comparable to the rest of the league’s point guards. You know, the whole idea of comparing two players by saying, “If Team A offered Player X to Team B for Player Y, who would say no?” This is not “Lin had a bad game, trade him!”

In that case, I guess yeah Wash might hesitate because Wall was a #1 pick, and he has pretty good per game #s. GMs are just so risk averse though. The only thing holding back a team (again, other than Minnesota) from giving up a younger 2nd tier guard for Lin is the “flash-in-the-pan” concern.

Magic Johnson averaged 19.5 ppg for his career. The 3 seasons he won the MVP he averaged 23.9, 22.5 and 22.3 ppg. He did so with TS% over 60% all 3 times. Not to mention he averaged 12.2, 12.8 and 11.5 assists per game as well. Amazing.

Gideon Zaga:
Plus even though Phil relied heavily on the triangle there was no question that Jordan and Kobe were the focus of the offense. And guess what, when Jordan or Kobe got shutdown they were still able to find ways to win out of Scottie and nowadays out of the post.DANTONI is pg or fail. Are u kidding me?

They were able to “find ways to win” by having a top 5 small forward of all time or the best frontcourt in the NBA. The Knicks have an injured Melo and Amare Stoudemire having the worst season of his entire NBA career. The second best player on any Jordan or Shaq/Kobe title team would be the best player on the Knicks this year.

I get that you don’t like D’Antoni, but you’re really stretching to find reasons to criticize him. I guess that’s to be expected when the “he can’t coach defense” nonsense was taken away, though.

Z-man:
Lin was completely outplayed by Mario Chalmers. There are lots of gyus at that PG level around the league. Let’s not get too carried away with 2 weeks of great basketball. The league will adjust to him, and the question yet to be answered is, can he adjust back? I am optimistic, but would trade him for the any of the top 10 pgs in the league in a heartbeat, just on the basis of there being no uncertainty with those proven products. Lin has upside, but he has significant downside too.

The thing with how the Heat contained him is that you cannot give only the Heat guards the credit… Their bigs are VERY mobile, in fact I would say that they are in a tier of their own with the Bulls on guarding the pick-and-roll. Bosh and Anthony and Haslem are all very quick (for bigmen) and are able to hedge hard then quickly rotate quickly to their man as the ball gets swung back out by Lin. Chalmers and Cole were aggressive at getting over the ball screen (and Stoudemire slipping the screen didn’t help at all esp. b/c the second Heat big rotates over to cover Stoudemire on the roll) and forced Lin, who seemed uncomfortable with the intensity and pressure, to pick up his dribble. Furthermore, because the Heat guards fought through the screen so hard, Lin could not split the screen… I agree with most posters above: the only other teams in the L who can give Lin this kind of pressure are the Bulls, the Sixers (who are surprisingly amazing on the defensive end this season) with Hawes and Brand healthy, and possibly Boston…

@143
“John Wall and Brandon Jennings are terrible. Jennings was hot early, but has successfully tugged his TS% down to 50.2%, worse than Bruce Bowen 2.0 (Mbah a Moute). Sadly, that number is still a career best for him. Wall has subpar vision, is not deceptive off the dribble, and is a poor finisher at the rim and can’t shoot. He is just super fast. That’s his only talent. It’s a nice talent — being able to race past guys off misses/steals — but it doesn’t make a guy starter caliber for a good team. His realistic peak, if he really worked on his shot and didn’t shoot so much, is Mike Conley. His realistic floor is maybe TJ Ford. I would rather have Luke Ridnour over either.”

I’d have to strongly disagree with you on Wall. He is shooting 57% this year and shot 60% last year at the rim on around 5.5 attempts which make him above average finishing at the rim… However, his main problem is that he’s inexperienced. He tends to put up bad shots (out-of-control) at the rim and he often penetrates too deeply to give himself a good look at the rim. He also has pretty superb court vision, averaging 7.5 assists this year and 8.3 last year. His turnovers are high, but again, they are high not because of some long-term, permanent problem but because he is inexperienced. He’s extremely athletic and is verrrrrrrrry long, which cannot be understated. Really, he has a high ceiling if he can learn to play under control and start making the right play almost every time. As of right now, he’s stuck in a losing culture with sulking veterans and not really anyone to learn from. I agree, however, that he needs to either develop a jumpshot or stop taking them. Shooting them doesn’t keep the defense honest because he doesn’t make them. I say Washington should blow things up and ship Andray Blatche’s fat butt out and try to get a veteran point guard to help John Wall develop.

Instead of just repeating the mantra that everyone missed out on a great player because of cultural blinders, Beck did some real reporting to capture how and why Lin improved from high school, through college and especially in the last seven months.

Not in the article, but I have to think that if Golden State had known what they had in Lin, they would have amnestied Biedrins and kept him.If they had not obtained DeAndre Young, they would have been able to trade one of Ellis or Curry for the missing big man.

Race was a factor in he was, despite being the california player of the year, did not receive a single D1 scholarship offer. Race was a factor, despite having notable athleticism(most notable best lateral speed of all potential draftees the Mavericks tested, every team did not draft him. Race is the reason, why despite seeing Lin several times, several(Jon Barry being one of them) former NBA’ers still doubted his ability.

Please stop saying that race had nothing to do with why he wasn’t drafted. I’m not saying it was the MAIN reason, but it’s certainly one of the top reasons.

maudlin17: Race was a factor in he was, despite being the california player of the year, did not receive a single D1 scholarship offer. Race was a factor, despite having notable athleticism(most notable best lateral speed of all potential draftees the Mavericks tested, every team did not draft him. Race is the reason, why despite seeing Lin several times, several(Jon Barry being one of them) former NBA’ers still doubted his ability.

Please stop saying that race had nothing to do with why he wasn’t drafted. I’m not saying it was the MAIN reason, but it’s certainly one of the top reasons.

I was not saying what you think I said. I have no doubt that race played a factor in why Lin was overlooked by all of the D-1 scholarship schools. I also have no doubt that race played a factor in why Lin did not get drafted and could not get off of the bench last year.

I was complimenting Beck for advancing the story. Once everyone accepted that Lin was overlooked, he went back to see what Lin was at various stages, and why he was able to improve DESPITE the fact that the NBA and the D-1 coaches overlooked him. Specifically, Lin was able to work on his physical weakness and improve his shooting to become the player that the coaches assumed that he could never be.

I think race played a big part in coaches having the blind spot to assume that Lin could never remedy his shortcomings to succeed at the next level (both when he was entering college and when he was entering the NBA). But it does Lin disservice to assume that he left Harvard as the player he is today. He identified his weaknesses, worked on the solutions, and has become a very strong PG.

Brian Cronin: For what it is worth, I do not believe Z-Man is suggesting actual trades. He is using trades as a way to gauge how good Lin is comparable to the rest of the league’s point guards. You know, the whole idea of comparing two players by saying, “If Team A offered Player X to Team B for Player Y, who would say no?” This is not “Lin had a bad game, trade him!”

Exactly, Brial, thanks. If the knee-jerk posters were actually following the threads, they would recall that I have said (I think several times) that I am not interested in any trades or a new coach at this point. Let it ride and let’s see what we have.

he wasn’t “california player of the year”, he was Northern California Division II Player of the Year.

and I think it’s hard to say that race had more to do with it than going to an Ivy League school. Chris Dudley wasn’t drafted either, no Ivy League player has been since 1995. he also didn’t look good in predraft workouts, but after he looked good in summer league, four teams offered him deals. to me, race is pretty low on the reasons he was overlooked.

also, I certainly get wanting to see how this team can gel with some time together, but I still think it’s crazy to not go after Dwight Howard hard if that is a possibility. Chandler/Amare/Fields/Lin for Howard/Turkoglu/Nelson, Nelson’s deal is up at the same time Chris Paul’s is. can you imagine a Howard/Melo/Paul core? yowza.

jon, in theory you are probably right, but it’s just not gonna happen. Paul is re-signing with the Clippers. Lin is a gold mine and is not going to be included in a trade. Orlando will get a better package for Howard that will include high draft picks.

The good news is, this team as presently constructed has a chance to be really good.

maudlin17: Race was a factor in he was, despite being the california player of the year, did not receive a single D1 scholarship offer.Race was a factor, despite having notable athleticism(most notable best lateral speed of all potential draftees the Mavericks tested, every team did not draft him. Race is the reason, why despite seeing Lin several times, several(Jon Barry being one of them) former NBA’ers still doubted his ability.

Please stop saying that race had nothing to do with why he wasn’t drafted.I’m not saying it was the MAIN reason, but it’s certainly one of the top reasons.

I don’t think race played as big a part as you, and others, are saying. He was weak, physically. He’s not long. Doesn’t have super athletic ability. He really wasn’t good NBA material, but had enough potential to earn him a spot on the rosters.
Give Lin credit for cultivating his talent. That’s the point of the article.

I think Popovich is the best coach out there, hands down. Year after year, he gets maximum results from his talent, and as an x’s and o’s guy, there’s no one better. Watch the Spurs after a timeout, or on the last shot of the game, they execute to perfection and usually end up with the right guy taking a high percentage shot. (He’s also a really funny dude in interviews, for what that’s worth.)

Speaking of funny dudes, did anyone see D-12’s impersonation of Stan Van Gundy? Hysterical, although it is a little weird to have a player making fun of his own coach.