If he did love them why would he put them there? Would you torture your children forever if you loved them?Sorry to answer a question with a question.

If you love them you want to see them grow. My kid is content living in his car.He can take my wise advice or live in his car. My love for him does not meanI will support him after he turns 25. His hell is his making. There's only so muchyou can do.

Its superficially easy for him to say he does. And as Skywriting says, you can love your children even when they are making what you believe are poor choices.

But that get-out does not apply when the person claiming to do the loving is responsible for all things that were created. Did man literally create hell? Of course not - man does not have that power. Any hell that exists was created, designed, stocked and staffed by Yahweh, nobody else.

So while - through misunderstanding, or ignorance - people may have ended UP there, what happens to them there is entirely down to Yahweh. To use the parallel of the car, it would be like saying:

"My kid chose one day to live in his car. I thought that was a bad choice, so I filled the car with excrement and hammered long spikes into it. I then made sure that he could never get out, no matter how much he begged and pleaded. Because he made a poor choice at one point, I am making sure that his choice is as painful and terrifying and horrific as I can possibly make it - while ensuring that there is no possibility for him to change his mind. But you know, I still love him."

So no. Does Yahweh love those folks in hell? No way. If there is any situation where person A is responsible for the poor conditions that person B is living in, while person A will not allow person B to ever leave, then there is no way that person A loves person B. "Hate" would be the appropriate word there.

If he did love them why would he put them there? Would you torture your children forever if you loved them?Sorry to answer a question with a question.

If you love them you want to see them grow. My kid is content living in his car.He can take my wise advice or live in his car. My love for him does not meanI will support him after he turns 25. His hell is his making. There's only so muchyou can do.

So can I take from that; If you could, you would torture your son forever.

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We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

If you love them you want to see them grow. My kid is content living in his car.He can take my wise advice or live in his car. My love for him does not meanI will support him after he turns 25. His hell is his making. There's only so muchyou can do.

Man has chosen not to live with God. It's a Hell of man's own choice.

I don't get your analogy here... Your kid made the choice, but you didn't go light his car on fire while screaming you love him.

If I were to hold a gun to your head and give you a "choice" of either being shot or paying me $1000, is it still a choice?

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If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is. - neopagan

Just putting a question out for discussion. I know it will lead to many other questions. Those questions will lead to answers and other questions which will lead to OSAS and Calvinism.

So does God love those folks who are in hell? If so, why do you believe that? If not, why do you believe not?

How you expect this discussion to lead to Calvinism is beyond me.

God does not exist. Hell does not exist. Your fictional god obviously doesn't love much of anyone, despite what religion teaches. Any god who'd design a hell for anyone not believing in him, or making mistakes, is a petty tirant. Its a terrible, terrible work of fiction, that doesn't really work on any level as literature. And it fails mightily as a guide for decent living. The only way the bible works at all, is by being hidden away in a closet so that rather than read the whole thing, people only believe the tiny bits their preachers tell them.

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If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

If you love them you want to see them grow. My kid is content living in his car.He can take my wise advice or live in his car. My love for him does not meanI will support him after he turns 25. His hell is his making. There's only so muchyou can do.

Man has chosen not to live with God. It's a Hell of man's own choice.

I don't get your analogy here... Your kid made the choice, but you didn't go light his car on fire while screaming you love him.

If I were to hold a gun to your head and give you a "choice" of either being shot or paying me $1000, is it still a choice?

Like you and other posters have noted, choice, what choice?

Do as I say, worship me and do not question anything about me and I will allow you to live in heaven enjoying total bliss with me for eternity.

Do anything else and I will send you to an eternal damnation of pain and suffering unlike anything a person could experience on earth.

If you love them you want to see them grow. My kid is content living in his car.He can take my wise advice or live in his car. My love for him does not meanI will support him after he turns 25. His hell is his making. There's only so muchyou can do.

Man has chosen not to live with God. It's a Hell of man's own choice.

Let's say we removed the part I put in bold. Let's say that you have the ability to manifest any result you desire - basically, the "only so much you can do" becomes "you can do anything". In what way does that change things in this scenario?

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"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

That's only going to work if you participate too. So far, you're not really doing that emilysmith.

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I know it will lead to many other questions. Those questions will lead to answers and other questions which will lead to OSAS and Calvinism.

Not sure how to interpret this - do you actually want to discuss OSAS and Calvinism? If so, why not just go ahead and start there? If not, then ...?

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So does God love those folks who are in hell? If so, why do you believe that? If not, why do you believe not?

You do understand that the majority of us do not believe in the existence of any god(s) at all, right? I'm not being facetious, that's often a big challenge in communicating around here.

The only way I can actually answer your question the way it's posed is to say that no, I don't believe that "god" has any feelings about anyone at all as I don't believe in such a being, and along with not believing in god, I don't believe in hell either - that's the position of most of us. So that's pretty much a conversation ender, innit?

If instead, you are asking if anyone can present arguments that would support either side of the question, while acknowledging that from here, it's all a game of "let's pretend that we agree that god is real for the sake of the discussion", then that's a different situation.

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“Be skeptical. But when you get proof, accept proof.” –Michael Specter

If you love them you want to see them grow. My kid is content living in his car.He can take my wise advice or live in his car. My love for him does not meanI will support him after he turns 25. His hell is his making. There's only so muchyou can do.

Man has chosen not to live with God. It's a Hell of man's own choice.

Let's say we removed the part I put in bold. Let's say that you have the ability to manifest any result you desire - basically, the "only so much you can do" becomes "you can do anything". In what way does that change things in this scenario?

I could have him to do all my bidding so I would no longer have to work.He could work for my family income and my wife I could retire and do nothing but fish. He would study for an advanced education, for my benefit.No longer would I have to wake him with spray from a garden hose so he gets to work on time.

If you love them you want to see them grow. My kid is content living in his car.He can take my wise advice or live in his car. My love for him does not meanI will support him after he turns 25. His hell is his making. There's only so muchyou can do.

Man has chosen not to live with God. It's a Hell of man's own choice.

I don't get your analogy here... Your kid made the choice, but you didn't go light his car on fire while screaming you love him.If I were to hold a gun to your head and give you a "choice" of either being shot or paying me $1000, is it still a choice?

Like you and other posters have noted, choice, what choice?Do as I say, worship me and do not question anything about me and I will allow you to live in heaven enjoying total bliss with me for eternity.Do anything else and I will send you to an eternal damnation of pain and suffering unlike anything a person could experience on earth. That is the believers choice.There is the forgiveness angle, but that is for another topic.

I forgive you for the misunderstanding. Jesus said to follow Him.That is the only "rule" given. He made no other threats.

Where is this Hell that I'm choosing? Is it under the disk shaped world with a dome on top that separates the waters?

Life without God at your side. Have you ever wished people would change and be nice to each other and fully supportive? Well, man has chosen another path where the spiritual life is not in charge. We are stuck here with the material world, for the time being. How you describe it is up to you. But it's not like you like it to be.

So Jesus before Biblegod? Or are they the same? And, if the same: then there were "more threats".

-Nam

Jesus didn't come to enforce the law or change it. He came to fulfill the law. It's like when somebody pays all your traffic tickets.You are grateful for what they did and you work hard not to get more tickets.But you do it out of appreciation for what was done for you.

So Jesus before Biblegod? Or are they the same? And, if the same: then there were "more threats".

-Nam

Jesus didn't come to enforce the law or change it. He came to fulfill the law. It's like when somebody pays all your traffic tickets.You are grateful for what they did and you work hard not to get more tickets.But you do it out of appreciation for what was done for you.

like I said, YappyWay is a sadist... Depending on which xian cult you listen to as to who the "true" believers are... You always end up with waaaay more folks roasting in ETERNAL torment than those strumming harps for all eternity. But remember... it's not god who sends them there... they, ummm... wait for it... chose it themselves.LOLWhich takes us back to where is this hell... since we atheists choose to go someplace we can neither see, find or direct others to...

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If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is. - neopagan

So Jesus before Biblegod? Or are they the same? And, if the same: then there were "more threats".

-Nam

Jesus didn't come to enforce the law or change it. He came to fulfill the law. It's like when somebody pays all your traffic tickets.You are grateful for what they did and you work hard not to get more tickets.But you do it out of appreciation for what was done for you.

How does this answer my question?

-Nam

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Quote from: David Garrett Arnold

there are oceans of words aged in prayer,against geometric lines, and cloudbeaten skies;credulous allure—slowly captivated in hearts fair—trees and flowers bloomed in grace upon one's eyes.

So Jesus before Biblegod? Or are they the same? And, if the same: then there were "more threats".

-Nam

Jesus didn't come to enforce the law or change it. He came to fulfill the law. It's like when somebody pays all your traffic tickets.You are grateful for what they did and you work hard not to get more tickets.But you do it out of appreciation for what was done for you.

I'd applaud you for actually answering but I already smited you for not and have to wait an hour and I'll forget by then.

So, since you don't believe that Jesus and Biblegod are one; as so many Christians do, I guess that does validate your position but doesn't make it factual, just makes it your opinion. Don't you love how that works out?

One of the many dilemmas with the Bible: it can have too many interpretations.

-Nam

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Quote from: David Garrett Arnold

there are oceans of words aged in prayer,against geometric lines, and cloudbeaten skies;credulous allure—slowly captivated in hearts fair—trees and flowers bloomed in grace upon one's eyes.

If torturing people for eternity in a lake of fire is "love", then yes, YHYH loves the people who are in hell.

Being outside of time, eternity is not the same as we would describe it from the inside.The lake of fire is said to destroy everything, so the internal torment people experiencefrom their decision not to trust God will end at that time as well. Everything not perfectis destroyed in the lake of fire. Torment would likely be as well.