I've experienced that from my clients, too. With the iPhone 4, do we have more dropped calls, or are the dropped calls just more noticeable because the antenna design is so different? I haven't seen a controlled test but someone must be working on that.

In any case, I hope the software revision at least makes it more clear what's happening. I found a spot in my house last night where bridging the two metal bands with the lightest touch of one finger made the bars drop from 5 to 1. That's the first time I had seen any of this on my phone. But I could still make, sustain and receive calls with no noticeable loss of quality. So at least getting the signal display to match what's really happening better (a minimal reduction, in my case) would be a step in the right direction for those of you with actual connection problems.

If I were dropping calls, though, I'd just return the thing. My old phone wasn't that bad. Wait until the next revision and then try again.

By the way, I found the part in Apple's letter about making the shorter bars a little taller to be amusingly Orwellian.

Nah! Bauhaus: less is more!

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"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -

Whether or not you're able to substantiate your discomfort with that reporting by disputing any specific claims of fact in those articles, one fact remains unquestionable: Apple's mishandling of this issue has resulted in a significant hit to their reputation.

Yet the iPhone 4 continues to fly off the shelves.

Despite what the trolls, pundints and astroturfers are flinging, people are voting with their dollars and the vote is in: The iPhone 4 is a success.

A couple of days ago, my class/lab did a count on one forum in which in the first 240 blogs, 30 of them were posted by two of the most vocal anti-Apple/Mac members and who didn't own the iPhone 4. Much of the negativism came from the same non-user.

What was equally interesting was the fact that with one exception, in all the reported 'expert reviews' there wasn't a mention or it was not a concern re 'dropped calls' while observing a drop in bars. Only later in the days did there appear to be issues re dropped calls. But again, the most vocal appeared to be coming primarily from those who did not have an iPhone 4 and even more surprising, any other iPhone.

Ha!

CaptainJ, you've been Chopped!

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"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -

For every one person writing something good, someone could write something as equally negative. For me the lone indicator is the sales figure. Oh, and the iPhone 4 in my hand, humming right along.

If you don't believe me ask Microsoft about the runaway success of the Kin. Now that was a POS. Did anyone write anything negative about it, (other than Dilger who rightly called it)? Did anybody write anything positive about it? No, it failed all by itself.

I have found a website and forum for people interested in Appley things on which the members treat each other with respect, do not name-call, they collaborate on getting facts straight, and bring useful expertise and insights to the matters under discussion. Civility and intelligence are the rule of the day. I would love to tell you where it is, but that would only lead the hordes of trolls which bedevil other sites to it. Membership is restricted and rules are rigorously enforced. It's heaven. I may never post anywhere else again.

LOL... Say hello to Steve for me!

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"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -

If it was truly as big a problem as some keep arguing, there would be villagers with torches and pitchforks massing at Apple Stores around the world. Instead, what we have are masses demanding more iPhone 4's. All the links to articles and passionate protestations in the world cannot gainsay success. It is what it is.

Microsoft didn't earn the banner of being industry a$$hole of the '90s overnight. Apple taking that crown will take time too. This is how such a moniker begins to get traction.

Remember, nearly 3/4 of iPhone sales are to those landfillers, existing customers throwing out their ols one to get the new one. Relatively few first-time buyers.

"Burn me once, shame on you. Burn me twice..."

If your figure is true, I am guessing that it applies only to phones delivered. What about all those on order? Has that figure been revealed. I am one of them. True, I am a "landfiller," but I see nothing to convince me that sales are going to drop significantly once that group has been satisfied. Neither do the analysts for whatever that's worth.

I never thought of MS as being any more of an a-hole than any other big corporation. Sluggish maybe, perhaps non-creative. But not gratuitously mean. Perhaps you have personal experience with them that says otherwise.

Remember, nearly 3/4 of iPhone sales are to those landfillers, existing customers throwing out their ols one to get the new one. Relatively few first-time buyers.

Nice way to generalize all us upgraders as "landfillers". FYI, I sold my iPhone 3G and it's now being used as someone's smartphone on the AT&T network. Also, last I heard, a little more than a quarter of all iPhone sales were new customers. Not exactly what I'd call "relatively few".

Now Consumer Reports says that these signal problems are common to all phones, and is no reason not to buy an iPhone 4. Come on naysayers. The tide is turning, the sources that really mean something (at least to many consumers) are weighing in on Apple's side. For years CR wouldn't give Apple the time of day--preferring Windows as a "better value." Hardly inveterate fanboys. But I'm sure you'll come up with a reason why their opinion, too, should be disregarded. Time to move on to other more important issues.

I just recorded a video accessing 3G data on my iPhone 4 before and after holding it in my left hand. Instead of just looking at the reception indicator, I used speed test apps to see if the 3G signal is affected. It completely lost all 3G reception.

-- you have an instance of a defective phone that a replacement would resolve
-- there is a hardware design defect
-- there is a software defect* that can be resolved by an update

* this one can be a toughie, because it could be in the way the drivers recognize signal strength, decide when to hand off to a stronger (slower?) signal, and actually accomplishing the switchover. When you are working at this level, it is kind of a never-land... not quite hardware, not quite software.

** Back in the early days you usually were correct guessing a hardware bug. With the state-of-the-art electronics many former hardware features are partially implemented in software-- one advantage of this is to be able to resolve many "hardware problems" by changing the "software". For example, they could, likely, change the CPU speed (clocking) with a software patch. This could be used to reduce overheating, conserve battery. The Cell radio chips, likely, can be tweaked by software, too.

In the iP4 you have much more compute power than you have in a 10 year old iMac... plus GPU, GPS, radio chips, manometers, etc..

There is a lot of complexity here, and many places to look for problems and solutions-- it takes time to localize the problem, identify resolution, and implement a "fix"

If Apple has done their job, there will very little "hardware" in the iP4 that can't be tweaked to resolve problems.

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Yes, the 3GS was updated to iOS4 before I purchased the iPhone 4 to replace it. The one thing I've noticed in playing around with both phones so far is that it seems the iPhone 4 doesn't fall back to Edge from 3G as well as the 3GS does. Where I live, it's a new development sort of on the edge of the 3G coverage area. My old 3GS would always swap between 3G and EDGE all the time but I wouldn't drop calls. The iPhone 4 will drop down to zero bars but still show 3G and then the calls will be dropped. I'm going to take it to the Apple store tomorrow just in case to see what they say.

So the signal display has been showing a better signal than the iPhone has actually been getting and you're fixing that so the display more accurately reflects the actual signal. That's great. And thanks for fronting up via your PR people.

So what are you doing to fix the problems that people with iP4s are having with dropped calls, poor call quality and poor data speeds when they hold the iP4 in the way most of the owners have always held their cellphones?

Interesting thread on the apple discussion board. 22 pages of people with poor 3G data performance on the iPHone 4 when compared to other phones. I really think the two may be related and there is an underlying software issue. With so many people with issues, I am hoping there will be a software fix out for that. I could care less about signal strength if I get data in!

Yes, the 3GS was updated to iOS4 before I purchased the iPhone 4 to replace it. The one thing I've noticed in playing around with both phones so far is that it seems the iPhone 4 doesn't fall back to Edge from 3G as well as the 3GS does. Where I live, it's a new development sort of on the edge of the 3G coverage area. My old 3GS would always swap between 3G and EDGE all the time but I wouldn't drop calls. The iPhone 4 will drop down to zero bars but still show 3G and then the calls will be dropped. I'm going to take it to the Apple store tomorrow just in case to see what they say.

Ahh... that's an interesting observation! Next time I am out and about, I'll see what happens here.

Without jumping the gun, I think we know (based on Apple's statement):

1) the algorithm for measuring the [various] cell radio signals is incorrect

2) as a result, the reported signal strength/quality numbers are incorrect

3) these numbers are displayed incorrectly, graphically by displaying more bars than it should

Is it a stretch to assume that the software routine that determines when to switch from 3G to Edge is based on the same erroneous signal strength/quality numbers?

Or, are the numbers OK and the error is limited to the graphics display?

Hmmm....

,

"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -

Is it a stretch to assume that the software routine that determines when to switch from 3G to Edge is based on the same erroneous signal strength/quality numbers?

Or, are the numbers OK and the error is limited to the graphics display?

Hmmm....

,

That is a condescending post. His problem wasn't stated rudely or anything else. There are legitimate signal issues out there. I can put a 3Gs next to a 4 on a table and get faster downloads nearly all day long. While not holding a phone in hand. Look at the apple forum, people are having issues while not holding them in hand and they have friends nearby to directly compare. 22 pages and growing. I am lucky because we have over 20 iphones in the office with 4 4s.

I guess since your phone doesn't have an issue, his phone doesn't have one. Sound reasoning...

Without jumping the gun, I think we know (based on Apple's statement):

1) the algorithm for measuring the [various] cell radio signals is incorrect

2) as a result, the reported signal strength/quality numbers are incorrect

3) these numbers are displayed incorrectly, graphically by displaying more bars than it should

Is it a stretch to assume that the software routine that determines when to switch from 3G to Edge is based on the same erroneous signal strength/quality numbers?

I agree that whatever software judges when to drop from 3G to 2G and vice versa is not the same as the one that pops up the signal strength bars on your phone.

However, I disagree that the bars can be considered incorrect as they currently are. They only represent more or less signal, not absolute values like the decibels they are built off of. In other words, if it showed 5 bars for a weaker signal and lower bars for a stronger signal, that would be incorrect.

All Apple has really stated is they will optimize them so 5 bars doesn't run the gamut to -90dB. What they didn't state is why this will take "a few weeks" to complete, which leads me to theorize they are doing some heavy fixes in the firmware, not just making a cosmetic change to represented bars.

Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"

That is a condescending post. His problem wasn't stated rudely or anything else. There are legitimate signal issues out there. I can put a 3Gs next to a 4 on a table and get faster downloads nearly all day long. While not holding a phone in hand. Look at the apple forum, people are having issues while not holding them in hand and they have friends nearby to directly compare. 22 pages and growing. I am lucky because we have over 20 iphones in the office with 4 4s.

I guess since your phone doesn't have an issue, his phone doesn't have one. Sound reasoning...

I didn't take it as such but then again, I'm probably not the sharpest pencil in the box! hehe...

Anyways, I've been playing around some more with both and so far this is what I've found (again, this my particular case). If I hold the i4 normally, at least for me, the edge of my hand, below my thumb does come into contact with the left edge of the phone. Holding the phone this way and making a call, I will have 3 bars in 3G. The bars will drop down to nothing but it will still display 3G then a few seconds later, I will drop the call. Repeating this with my 3GS, I will start with 4 bars in 3G and by holding the phone, I will loose one bar on average. just by holding the phone the same way. Again because I'm on the edge of the 3G area, in three additional calls made with the 3GS, it will stay on 3G for some or drop into EDGE for others but I don't drop the call. And my bars never drop down to zero.

My theory (again, this is my particular case and I'm no expert on cell signals) is the the i4 just really, really wants to hold on to that 3G signal. But it's not falling back to EDGE in time to keep the call active when the 3G signal fades away.

That is a condescending post. His problem wasn't stated rudely or anything else. There are legitimate signal issues out there. I can put a 3Gs next to a 4 on a table and get faster downloads nearly all day long. While not holding a phone in hand. Look at the apple forum, people are having issues while not holding them in hand and they have friends nearby to directly compare. 22 pages and growing. I am lucky because we have over 20 iphones in the office with 4 4s.

I guess since your phone doesn't have an issue, his phone doesn't have one. Sound reasoning...

Man, I am sorry. I didn't mean to be condescending,

We've been discussing his issue, reasonably, through several posts.

I have a 3G and 3GS as well as an iP4. None are experiencing any problems-- though the 3G acted weird after the iOS 4 upgrade... reboot fixed it. I am a developer and will get 2 more iP4s soon (supposed to ship today).

I planned to replace the 3G with an iP4 (and deactivate the 3G). Because of these problems, I think I will just switch SIMs among the iP4s-- so I can observe what happens on 3 generations of iPhones,

I am concerned when others experience a legitimate problem. I think the OP has a legitimate problem, and was posting/thinking out loud to see if I could better understand the problem and prompt some comments from others.

I never expected yours.

Again. I apologize if that post taken as rude or demeaning-- it wasn't meant that way!

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"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -

I didn't take it as such but then again, I'm probably not the sharpest pencil in the box! hehe...

Anyways, I've been playing around some more with both and so far this is what I've found (again, this my particular case). If I hold the i4 normally, at least for me, the edge of my hand, below my thumb does come into contact with the left edge of the phone. Holding the phone this way and making a call, I will have 3 bars in 3G. The bars will drop down to nothing but it will still display 3G then a few seconds later, I will drop the call. Repeating this with my 3GS, I will start with 4 bars in 3G and by holding the phone, I will loose one bar on average. just by holding the phone the same way. Again because I'm on the edge of the 3G area, in three additional calls made with the 3GS, it will stay on 3G for some or drop into EDGE for others but I don't drop the call. And my bars never drop down to zero.

My theory (again, this is my particular case and I'm no expert on cell signals) is the the i4 just really, really wants to hold on to that 3G signal. But it's not falling back to EDGE in time to keep the call active when the 3G signal fades away.

Yeah, It sounds like a) the iP4 doesn't know when to hand off to Edge, or b) the handoff is not being done properly.

That's more information than I'd heard before (your prior post).

solipsism is more technical than I, and he seems to think that Apple is messin' with the cell drivers/interface... that is a distinct possibility!

Corporations don't to admit a mistake... when they do, they don't necessarily tell you every mistake... they couch it as a "performance and reliability enhancement".

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"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -

Yes, the 3GS was updated to iOS4 before I purchased the iPhone 4 to replace it. The one thing I've noticed in playing around with both phones so far is that it seems the iPhone 4 doesn't fall back to Edge from 3G as well as the 3GS does. Where I live, it's a new development sort of on the edge of the 3G coverage area. My old 3GS would always swap between 3G and EDGE all the time but I wouldn't drop calls. The iPhone 4 will drop down to zero bars but still show 3G and then the calls will be dropped. I'm going to take it to the Apple store tomorrow just in case to see what they say.

This was one of the issues on my 3G in a fringe 3G area. It was resolve significantly by turning 3G off.

As one has explained, "In dual-mode, you end up operating both radios simultaneously with dual mode to search whats available. If your phone has marginal 3g signal, it will drop to 2g, and keep searching for 3G, sometimes end up connecting, lose the connection and drop back to 2g. If it doesn't switch back fast enough, the call will drop.

I'm sure there will be plenty of people who will complain about this too!

Apple's latest excuse is not credible either. I have observed a demo iPhone 4 at the Apple store go from 5 bars to 3, then two and then none very rapidly when held in the "conventional manner". A dropped call is a dropped call. That is all that matters.

What is puzzling is that not all of the iPhone 4s appear to have the problem. I held several iPhone 4s at a different Apple store and none of the three of them I held exhibited the problem.

Apple and/or AT&T really need to get a handle on whatever the real problem may be.

I have a 3G and 3GS as well as an iP4. None are experiencing any problems-- though the 3G acted weird after the iOS 4 upgrade... reboot fixed it. I am a developer and will get 2 more iP4s soon (supposed to ship today).

I planned to replace the 3G with an iP4 (and deactivate the 3G). Because of these problems, I think I will just switch SIMs among the iP4s-- so I can observe what happens on 3 generations of iPhones,

I am concerned when others experience a legitimate problem. I think the OP has a legitimate problem, and was posting/thinking out loud to see if I could better understand the problem and prompt some comments from others.

I never expected yours.

Again. I apologize if that post taken as rude or demeaning-- it wasn't meant that way!

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Don't forget...the iP4 uses the microSIM card and can not be swapped back and forth to a 3G or 3Gs. I am not aware of an adapter for micro SIM to SIM (the way there are microSD to SD card adapters). Perhaps somebody will start making them. It would be useful.

The problems with the iP4 do not appear to affect all units. Someone may eventually figure out why this is the case. For the time being, it is puzzling. In addition to my observations about different iP4s at the Apple store below, I have spoken with several people with iP3/iP3Gs who have installed iOS 4 and have regretted doing so which leads me to suspect that there are several different things going on. I certainly hope that Apple recognizes that the problems are not imaginary and are not the fault of the users and finds out what the problem is soon.

So they tried to make ATT look better by over reporting reception. Now it backfired. Once again iPhone is brought down due to ATT. Time to expand to other carriers Apple.

You could as just as likely say that Apple inflated the perceived reception to make the iPhone look better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apple PR

Our formula, in many instances, mistakenly displays 2 more bars than it should for a given signal strength

Against what measure?

Regardless, as long as it can hold a signal I'd be happy. There's clearly people out there for whom that is not the case and changing the display isn't going to solve that.

Apple statement does nothing to assuage the fact that some are complaining of the death grip issue, where signal is outright lost. Nor does it explain why some can demonstrate better 'reception' and lack of dropout issues in 3GS as opposed to 4 in the same location.

I still think it more likely to be a manufacturing issue. The tolerances on this device appear to be finer than anything else that has come before in the product category. Seems to be a matter then, of continuously RMAing the thing till you get what you want. Given AppleCare reluctance and instructions not to replace phones, looks to be a bit of a catch 22.

Don't forget...the iP4 uses the microSIM card and can not be swapped back and forth to a 3G or 3Gs. I am not aware of an adapter for micro SIM to SIM (the way there are microSD to SD card adapters). Perhaps somebody will start making them. It would be useful.

They do exist...

•

http://microsim-shop.com/
But people seem to be doing just fine with cutting a space out of an old Mini-SIM* to match the size of the Micro-SIM.

That's good information, my friend. I had been aware of the cut-out affair, but that is not a great solution for everyone. A prepared adapter, on the other hand, is great.

Yes, you are, of course, correct about the terminology of Mini-SIM becoming simply SIM, but that is what everyone uses and so I do as well.

I, for one, would not be comfortable taking a $600 (if you have to replace it) iPhone everywhere I go and would want very much to be able to move the SIM card (of which ever form factor) to a different phone for different occasions. That is the beauty of GSM.

I, for one, would not be comfortable taking a $600 (if you have to replace it) iPhone everywhere I go and would want very much to be able to move the SIM card (of which ever form factor) to a different phone for different occasions. That is the beauty of GSM.

At least if you're jumping from country to country using disposable SIMs, it's pretty easy to just try the SIM they give you into a Micro-SIM. However, I think these will be very common among all world's GSM carriers in a very short time, especially Europe as the Wiki link I provided earlier shows a lot of interest by the ETSI, 3GPP and even 3GPP2.

I like that it's backwards compatible but I really hope the next version isn't. I'd like for something much smaller and much more secure to be created. Smaller, because even the Micro-SIM with the tray and connectors takes too much space, IMO, and more secure, because it seems a lose fitting SIM card is responsible for at least some people's poor reception.

What I think would work is a screw design (or at least cylindrical design that could lock with a pin like the current SIM tray). The flattened end of the screw could contain the SIM contact data. They no longer need to store SMS and contact data on the SIM, so the IMSI, PUK and PIN info would allow them to be considerably smaller even before we consider it's a 20 year technology that has has only recently shrunk the size of the plastic around it, not the connector itself. A 1.5mm thick screw end with a ring system for the connector plate so you can't put it in wrong would be simple, secure and free up a lot of space. Any thoughts on this? Why it could never work or how to improve upon it?

Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"

Thank you for your candid letter. And we don't buy a lick of it. You may not be the brain trust that Google is, but you have some smart people working there. We're guessing that you knew how crappy AT&T's coverage was when you entered this unholy alliance, so like a good battered wife, you've been covering up your husband's black eyes for the past 4 years.

Conspiracy theories aside, we believe you are missing an opportunity to innovate. To put it bluntly... bars are for drinking. Take a hint from the iPhone's battery indicator and try using a numerical percentage instead.

This was one of the issues on my 3G in a fringe 3G area. It was resolve significantly by turning 3G off.

As one has explained, "In dual-mode, you end up operating both radios simultaneously with dual mode to search whats available. If your phone has marginal 3g signal, it will drop to 2g, and keep searching for 3G, sometimes end up connecting, lose the connection and drop back to 2g. If it doesn't switch back fast enough, the call will drop.

I've never paid much attention to the "phone" part of the iPhone ( i rarely use it as a phone except during soccer season), so these are questions to see if I can understand what's goin' on-- no hidden agenda.

I am only talking about voice cell calls here, assume no data is going on.

Is it correct that in dual mode:
1) the phone (any phone) uses 2 different radios
2) both radios poll for signal continuously
3) if a call is attempted, the phone will first try to use the 3g radio if it meets sone some minimum signal strength threshold
4) failing that, the phone will then try to use the 2g radio if it meets some minimum signal strength threshold
5) failing that, the call attemt fails (no connection)
6) if a 2g connection is made, it still continues to poll for a 3g signal as well as the 2g signal

What happens if in the middle of a 2g connected call, it finds a 3g signal above the minimum threshold?
7) does the phone switch the call to the 3g signal?

What happens if the 3g signal is marginal, going above and below the threshold?
8) does the phone switch the call back and forth between 2g and 3g
9) if so, how frequently can this happen- once per second, etc.
10) is there any intelligence used to prevent churning between the two radios

TIA

Dick

"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -

All Apple has really stated is they will optimize them so 5 bars doesn't run the gamut to -90dB. What they didn't state is why this will take "a few weeks" to complete, which leads me to theorize they are doing some heavy fixes in the firmware, not just making a cosmetic change to represented bars.

Yeah, that's very indicative that this problem is deeper than they are making out. An algorithm fix on a device that nearly 2 million people have simply will not have such a low priority. If it was just a software update they were working on, it would be out within a matter of hours. Or days if it's firmware to test the chances of bricking devices.

A few weeks says to me that they are going to issue a fix after they hire their antenna engineers to advise them on how they should fix the problem and the engineers will probably reply 'well you shoulda hired an antenna engineer before building the phone'.

It says a lot about their QA too if they have been using the same algorithms for 3 years and nobody bothered to check it. It's a pretty fundamental part of a phone operation and this suggests that the phone part of the iPhone was an afterthought. Jobs already said that the iPhone started as an iPad - they did a tablet first and then shrunk it.

Don't forget...the iP4 uses the microSIM card and can not be swapped back and forth to a 3G or 3Gs. I am not aware of an adapter for micro SIM to SIM (the way there are microSD to SD card adapters). Perhaps somebody will start making them. It would be useful.

The problems with the iP4 do not appear to affect all units. Someone may eventually figure out why this is the case. For the time being, it is puzzling. In addition to my observations about different iP4s at the Apple store below, I have spoken with several people with iP3/iP3Gs who have installed iOS 4 and have regretted doing so which leads me to suspect that there are several different things going on. I certainly hope that Apple recognizes that the problems are not imaginary and are not the fault of the users and finds out what the problem is soon.

Yeah! Apple, as a company has always had kind of a corporate superiority complex-- usually it is deserved!

But, sometimes we need to slap 'em upside the head just to get them to realize that they, too, are mortal and all us mortals make mistakes!

.

"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -