I'd have a look at the SciFi Companion and Interface Zero. They basically have all the stuff covered you'd need for Eclipse Phase.

I'm not a big fan of conversions that try to convert the rules to SW ... rather take what's there and try to communicate the setting by applying SW rules.

I can appreciate that position. In sense that's my position. We're just in a different spot on the spectrum. I see myself as "take what's there and try to communicate the setting by applying SW rules".

A lot of the initial stuff will probably be tossed (and at least simplified further) but I find it easier to work from the base game to include things than to try to plow through hundreds of pages of unrelated material looking to jigsaw puzzle together something. (Weird sentence).

I am familiar with IZ (see the hacking skill). But I'm not adding the super- detailed-cyberware system. That was a big frustration with EP (very cool ideas but then people spend hours fiddling with their morphs).

If there is anything specific from SciFi that you think would solve one/any of the issues I'm grappling with I'd love to hear about it. Thanks in advance!

First, I will remind you of the (often neglected) amazing Common Knowledge rules. Awesome for fiddly knowledge and resolution of things that aren't common or powerful enough to be real skills.

Good point will try to use

ValhallaGH wrote:

Fargg wrote:

Investigation

For Savage Worlds, Investigation is the RESEARCH skill. Dig through any and all databases, from libraries to filing cabinets, to giant computer databanks. It's what you use to find clues in a big pile of information.

Right. That's basically what happens in EP.
If this is about streetwise then I'm seeing that it seems to be the social skill that I was originally considering adding. The name is just a bit frustrating since it's more like a Networking skill.
(see post below about using connections instead of rep for a current issue)

Fargg wrote:

New Skills

Hacking Lower level hacking is interface, higher is infosec. Everyone gets d4 base unless they have the hindrance (similar to Interface zero)
Athletics "Combines two limited use skills (Climbing and Swimming, along with a host of other skillls that are also too special case to be a single SW skill like Free Fall, Freerunning and Flight).
Special Rule: Increasing die size in athletics is governed by the lower of your Strength or Agility) So if someone has Str d8 and Agility d6 then they pay two points for every die increase above d6."
Deception Struggled a lot because I don’t want to add new skills; but this is a big part of the setting. Applies to lying, impersonation (both over the mesh and in meat space), setting up false identities (forging) as well as physical tricks like palming small items. The kinds of things a con man can do.

Assuming computer ops are a big deal, then Hacking may actually be a very good skill to have.[/quote]
It's so good that everyone has to have it (a bit like IZ). I suppose you could argue that the muse does it for you, but I'm not sure that makes a big difference.

ValhallaGH wrote:

Athletics is a nice catch all, and having it around depowers Agility some (the default "athletics" check for things that aren't Climbing and Swimming).

I was a bit anxious about that. Limiting it by Str and Agl seemed to keep it from allowing someone to avoid the consequences of low stats.

ValhallaGH wrote:

Deception is wildly unnecessary. It's already covered by Persuasion and Stealth, which are on your list of kept skills.

I was going to argue with you but I can't make a strong case.

Just to confirm you're saying that you'd just use Persuasion for anything deceptive like lying/impersonation/etc?

ValhallaGH wrote:

Boating is used to handle damage control on capital ships. No reason the same rules couldn't apply to capital space ships.

So your spaceship requires a different skill to use part of it; one that also makes you good at sailing? I just don't think players will accept that (I know I wouldn't).
Also, probably more important, no capital space ships in EP. Different kind of SciFi.

Last edited by Fargg on Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

My current annoyance is whether the connections edge works well enough to replace the rep system given what the rep system does in the setting (i.e. it exists as an actual system, or set of systems, in the world).

The problem really is that rep lets you buy gear outside of the inner system; it doesn't seem like that works in SW very well.
And the rep system is based upon having levels of rep that let you do different things (and also potentially act as a reward system -- something that players strive to use to improve their characters).

Just to confirm you're saying that you'd just use Persuasion for anything deceptive like lying/impersonation/etc?

Since it explicitly says that it does, yes I would.
I'll admit, I'm used to lying and diplomacy being different skills (in games), but there's not a real reason for it (smooth talkers are smooth talkers) other than "balance". But it's not broken, and it lets characters be good at more than one thing.

I get the feeling you're suffering from "I read the name, I know how it works" syndrome. Which is epidemic in gamer circles.

Fargg wrote:

So your spaceship requires a different skill to use part of it; one that also makes you good at sailing?

For my Savage Star Wars game? Sort of. Boating is for Capital Ships only, massive craft that actually have to worry about things like multi-section fires. Fighters and most freighters, even light cruisers, don't have to worry about it.

So, everyone hacks everything? The setting's dystopian enough that every 12 year old (i.e. PC with the Young hindrance) knows how to crack a computer system, break ICE, and do anything with anything?
That's got to make information security a nightmare. And I shudder to think of the havoc suffered by folks with pace makers and other life-sustaining computer-operated implants.

I'd actually have to get past page 5 of Eclipse Phase before I can help directly with the Rep system.
Though the idea of it is simple enough. Your reputation, based upon background as well as actions performed, determines how well and easily you can acquire stuff outside the core. Turning that into a game mechanic is a bit of a challenge. I'd probably use a trait, like the Sanity system from the Horror toolkit (or Realms of Cthulhu, or Tour of Darkness, or Weird War 2, or ...; it gets around). You set a base value, it fluctuates over play, and changes can have lasting impacts on the characters.

Connections gets you favors from a member of a specific group. And those favors can only be called in so often; at a certain point, you start owing them. That doesn't seem like a good fit for the system as a whole (but a great fit for special cases of Reputation)._________________"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."

So, everyone hacks everything? The setting's dystopian enough that every 12 year old (i.e. PC with the Young hindrance) knows how to crack a computer system, break ICE, and do anything with anything?

I hope you'll forgive me but for this but: I get the feeling you're suffering from "I read the name, I know how it works" syndrome.

Admittedly I haven't articulated what hacking is. But I thought people were (more) familiar with Interface Zero which basically combines computer use and computer hacking into one skill called hacking. I liked that since it was simple and easy to understand (when you use a computer you role this) also
personally I loath the effects when you get one skill for computer "use" and another for "hacking". (EP has this with Interface for use and Infosec for hacking).

ValhallaGH wrote:

That's got to make information security a nightmare. And I shudder to think of the havoc suffered by folks with pace makers and other life-sustaining computer-operated implants.

You're about 20% of the way there.
The impoverished masses are lucky to even have a body with a heart. A big population of the survivors of the fall didn't survive they died in the Fall. They're mind is stored on a system somewhere (maybe awake and living in VR, maybe just inert data). The slightly more "lucky" people are indentured servants working in cheap android bodies.
The mind is data (though changing that data is not trivial) but someone can "steal" you, torture you to reveal information, then delete that copy of you. Or, with a bit of effort, try to reprogram you into a loyal servant.

EP is not really the typical lightsabers, blasters, aliens-are-space-orcs-or-elves and big ships space opera you see in a lot of SciFi. It's not better than traditional SciFi (or fantasy) but it is different enough that I think it's worth a look at.

This may be too "meta" but the Firewall concept really is brilliant in this regard.

The "base" EP setting is harsh, grim, and fairly post-apocalyptic. It justifies conflict with almost everyone (massive pool of potential antagonists=good) but it largely looses the heroic fight vs evil feeling that draws 80% of people to roleplaying that underpins most traditional SF roleplaying.
Firewall (basically a delta green analogue), as a secret society desperately trying to keep transhumanity from wiping itself out, pulls back in that heroic thrust.

Without Firewall in the setting I think "savaging" the setting would be fairly pointless, since Savage Worlds is basically about good people stopping bad guys.

Lockpicking If you could even find one a purely mechanical lock is an oddity;

The description of Lockpicking in the Core Book clearly states that it's used on electronic locks as well.

I understand what you're trying to say, and I realize that EP is fairly "strange" by the standards of typical RPGs but the fact that the lockpicking skill says that is part of the reason why i'm flagging it as being useless.

Most everything in EP is effectively a computer. It interfaces automatically with everything around it (including people) through something called the mesh (like an ever present highly advanced internet).

When you go up to a secured door there is no lock. The door (and the hallway and maybe the floor) all know you're there. Your muse (a sort of personal AI) requests access from the security system of the building; maybe through the door, maybe through another interface, the character in the world doesn't normally know (or care). They either get in or they don't (and the muse tells them what's up).
It's the same for virtually all objects in the world, vehicles, weapons, equipment, they're all mesh based.
It's possible to hack that, spoofing identities is the most common way, but a brute force hack attempting to take advantage of some error in the code is also possible.

Anyway a player who get's lockpicking thinking they're going to jimmy their way into to things is in for a rude surprise.

I appreciate you flagging that as a point of confusion.

I would recommend checking out Issue #4 of Whispers from the Pit (which I believe can be found at Savagepedia). In it, Wiggy talks about about expanding the more seemingly niche skills. After reading it, you might find that some of the skills you've deemed useless actually aren't._________________The rabbit is cuddly. Kids like little cuddly sidekicks. I mean... The rabbit... It's a time-tested... Okay, the rabbit bites.
Blog: http://sittingduck1313.livejournal.comThe Gamer's Codex Reviewer

Hyperelite will typically have rich, filthy rich or noble depending upon their unique situation however exceptions are possible (e.g. newly impoverished or a child of extremely controlling parents).
re-instated should take clueless unless they were re-instated a long time ago.

Infolife, lost and uplift are different enough from other transhumance to effectively be their own races (these are only partially balanced right now, especially the Arcane Background Async; which I have no idea about yet).

Lost: Arcane Background (Async), Outsider (Lost), Character has 2 minor or 1 major hindrances of the following types (For which they receive no benefit): Deathwish, Delusional, Mean, Phobia, Quirk; begin play with futura morph

Uplift as human but also has Hindrance: Outsider (Uplift), begins play with uplifted morph

I would recommend checking out Issue #4 of Whispers from the Pit (which I believe can be found at Savagepedia). In it, Wiggy talks about about expanding the more seemingly niche skills. After reading it, you might find that some of the skills you've deemed useless actually aren't.

Deeming useless? The majority of the setting doesn't use locks anymore. Technology has passed beyond that point to a new paradigm which is covered by a different skill (hacking). The locks that remain are generally few in number, used in limited locations and almost certainly not protecting anything PCs would care about.
The lock picking (and the other skills marked limited use) aren't banned; but PCs have few skill points and it seemed nice to flag a bunch of them that aren't going to see much (if any) use.

Honestly my goal is to keep the skill list as tight as possible; VGH was right that deception was unnecessary and best to drop. I'm not dropping lockpicking/riding/boating for the sake of dropping them, but I'm not sure I see what the value is in coming up with arcane or unintuitive uses of the skills to justify they're existence.

If there were no airplanes in my typical DnD-esque fantasy setting would you insist I keep piloting? Add planes?

Fargg, for my part, I agree with how you are handling lockpicking. It's quite normal for settings to identify skills that have little to no use, and either to eliminate them, or at least warn players that putting skill points into them could be a waste. For example, there are a ton of settings that drop the Guts skill on the basis that there won't be a huge horror component to the adventures, and that characters can just use Spirit instead. This seems exactly the same sort of thing.

If I were running a similar setting, and one of those incredibly rare situations in which players come across a mechanical lock actually came up, and they actually want to open it, and they don't just want to blow the thing open with a weapon (a lot of "ands" here!), I'd let them make Common Knowledge rolls to see if they'd know how to pick it, and then an Agility roll to do the actual picking.

My two cents, etc._________________"It only takes an extra second to be courteous."
- Constable Benton Fraser

If I were running a similar setting, and one of those incredibly rare situations in which players come across a mechanical lock actually came up...

You'd also need a ruling if they came up against a purely electronic lock (and honestly, if I had anything to seriously protect in a setting like that, I'd have electronic non-mesh locks on all the entries ).

So, everyone hacks everything? The setting's dystopian enough that every 12 year old (i.e. PC with the Young hindrance) knows how to crack a computer system, break ICE, and do anything with anything?

I hope you'll forgive me but for this but: I get the feeling you're suffering from "I read the name, I know how it works" syndrome.

I've read the one from IZ. Which is why I said what I said. If everyone is trained in hacking then everyone knows how to hack everything. Every 9 year old PC can hijack someone's mind, shut down any body (or other support system), or similar things.

... And you indicate that I'm correct.
So, what am I reading incorrectly?

It's a horrifyingly dystopian setting, mixing extra-high-tech with post apocalypse, and blending it into a Matrix-level personality-destroying storage. Nasty. About as nasty as living in a super-max prison, and only being in your cells for about 4 hours a day._________________"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."

Well, most people aren't going to have much skill in hacking. I imagine it's a lot like the driving skill in most games. Most games, you don't actually have to put points into the driving skill to be able to drive from point A to point B. It only comes up when you're trying to do things like car chases or stunt driving; things beyond the standard use of the vehicle (and the sort of things that PCs are going to want to do with a car).

In this case, standard computer use (turn the machine on, run provided programs) isn't going to require a roll for anyone without a hindrance. Fancier stuff, like making a program or messing around with the advanced settings of a computer, requires the hacking skill. Actual "hacking" (i.e. getting access to computer data you shouldn't have) is probably going to be made with a penalty (higher depending on the level of security), making it less feasible for average joe d4 on the street. He might be able to make it with an ace, but that's going to be true even for someone completely untrained (d4-2).

If I were running a similar setting, and one of those incredibly rare situations in which players come across a mechanical lock actually came up...

You'd also need a ruling if they came up against a purely electronic lock (and honestly, if I had anything to seriously protect in a setting like that, I'd have electronic non-mesh locks on all the entries ).

While I can appreciate the point I don't think that it becomes that simple.

In any SciFi setting you accept certain assumptions about technological development, the same way that, in fantasy settings, you accept that magic works one way and not another.
While I am not the authority (you can go the Eclipse Phase boards for that) I find it relatively easy to imagine that: for the price of a very rare and weird electric lock (which would probably mean getting a the proper nanofab plans and then having it assembled along with electronic key cards or whatever you're using to open it) you could easily get a very high quality mesh connected lock (-4 to be hacked, requires another hacking roll at -4 within one turn or it automatically contacts the owner whenever it's opened regardless of who opened it).
And you have all the advantages of mesh connection (real time video recording, potential attack vector directly into the openers personal mesh, coordination with other security systems, etc etc).

Furthermore there are all sorts of other ways the locks could be bipassed. Either lock can easily be taken apart by or adjusted by nanoswarms of various sorts; but "modern" always connected mesh lock is vastly more likely to warn you it's being disassembled.
A dumb electric lock is just going to sit there and be destroyed (or goo'd more likely) by the nanoswarm.

I realize that in a typical SciFi game there is no "internet" or anything like that. It's laser swords and laser pistols and hover cars but it's basically exactly the same as life a few decades ago except that stuff has exotic names. That is a great vibe. But it is not the only vibe.
There are SciFi settings where everything is not exactly the same as the the 1980s with some scifi trappings. Where things have started to work differently. Obviously it's not for everyone. But I don't think there is anything wrong with games that try (however ineptly and probably inaccurately) to guess what a future that is different might actually be like.

Again (for perhaps the 6th time) I'm not suggesting the skill be removed and a PC who has that skill could not be the center of some really fun adventures (getting into an old habitat, or a luddite habitat that completely rejects mesh connections, etc). But, it's flagged along with Boating as limited use because, as the EP setting is presented, there aren't much in the way of typical locks to open.
There is another skill, hacking, that allows the character to fulfill that archetype in a different way (with some added flexibility and options in terms of what they can do).