These arguments along the lines of "we-need-this-guy or we-need-that-guy to make Lowry effective", just don't make any sense. First of all, Lowry simply isn't elite enough on offense or defense to start planning your entire roster around. You would just be repeating the exact same mistake you made with Bargs for the last 3+ years with Lowry. Secondly, I thought great players were supposed to make lesser players better, and not vice versa?

It's not the argument, it's more like a fortunate by-product of doing this very good thing for the franchise and it doesn't stop there. Adding Gay will make pretty much everyone else on the team better, except for I guess the dudes that he will replace (Fields, Kleiza, Anderson).

This is nothing like building around Bargnani. With Bargnani we had to acquire players who were fundamentally flawed in order to make up for Bargs deficiencies, which were a-plenty.

These arguments along the lines of "we-need-this-guy or we-need-that-guy to make Lowry effective", just don't make any sense. First of all, Lowry simply isn't elite enough on offense or defense to start planning your entire roster around. You would just be repeating the exact same mistake you made with Bargs for the last 3+ years with Lowry. Secondly, I thought great players were supposed to make lesser players better, and not vice versa?

I dont believe that the Raps need to acquire certain types of players to make Lowry effective. IMO, let Lowry play his game and that will make him effective. Stop trying to mold him into something he's not, something that the Raptors are NOTORIOUS for doing, i.e. Bargnani, Turk, Bosh, Bayless.

I agree with this, you dont plan your roster around him, but rather with him. I agree that this was a big mistake they did with Bargnani and Bosh and i hope they dont ever try that again, unless they get a Lebron or Durant type player.

Lowry is not a great player, but rather IMO, a very good, way above average player. And thats also been a problem for the Raps, holding on to "lesser players" as you say and passing them off as very good players. With or without Lowry, the Raptors shouldnt be pinning their hopes on a player trying to make other players better, they should get players who can play on their own, and not always wait for a pass.

Early in the season Lowry was putting up some sick statlines, but the team wasn't winning. I have no doubt that Lowry can get his, but that doesn't necessarily make his team better/successful, which I think is the problem with players like him.

You're right, the team wasn't winning (ignoring the fact that it was early, the roster was brand new, and very little chemistry existed in general). But I'm referring to a situation where the team is blown up, guys like DeRozan, Bargnani, Calderon, Kleiza, and one of Amir/Davis are shipped, and players that fit a ball-dominant PG's style are brought in.

You're right, the team wasn't winning (ignoring the fact that it was early, the roster was brand new, and very little chemistry existed in general). But I'm referring to a situation where the team is blown up, guys like DeRozan, Bargnani, Calderon, Kleiza, and one of Amir/Davis are shipped, and players that fit a ball-dominant PG's style are brought in.

I don't deny his talent, but I've been quite disappointed with him overall. His defense has not been anything close to what I was expecting (far from a lock-down defender at the PG position), his scoring has been inconsistent and I haven't been impressed with his attitude. My biggest fear is that he not only wants to win, but wants to win while being the focal point of the team. I'm concerned that whether it's Bargnani/DeRozan, or Rudy Gay or whoever else, that Lowry won't be happy being anything but the #1 guy.

I'm just weighing the options. Yes he's good and young and cheap and could blossom into something amazing. Or he could become a more talented Bayless 2.0. Unless you're feeling 90%+ that it's going to be option 1, then it might make sense to explore the option of trading him now, before the shine wears off his reputation and before he signs a hefty new contract.

And then Calderon reverts back to his 'normal' self which we saw last night.

That seems a bit unfair. He has played very well for an extended period of time. He didn't have a great shooting night and made a few bad decisions, don't think it is necessary to throw him under the bus for a bad game. What aren't you throwing the guys who missed all their shots under the bus as well.

These arguments along the lines of "we-need-this-guy or we-need-that-guy to make Lowry effective", just don't make any sense. First of all, Lowry simply isn't elite enough on offense or defense to start planning your entire roster around. You would just be repeating the exact same mistake you made with Bargs for the last 3+ years with Lowry. Secondly, I thought great players were supposed to make lesser players better, and not vice versa?

My point is more this: why trade a lottery pick for a guy in his prime with 2 years left on his deal if you aren't going to use him properly or play him in a system that benefits him? You aren't going to change a guy like Lowry. He is what he is. Lowry is, in fact, playing some of the best ball of his career and no one is happy with him. That's fine but it makes you wonder what the hell Colangelo was thinking when he did this deal in the first place.

I don't deny his talent, but I've been quite disappointed with him overall. His defense has not been anything close to what I was expecting (far from a lock-down defender at the PG position), his scoring has been inconsistent and I haven't been impressed with his attitude. My biggest fear is that he not only wants to win, but wants to win while being the focal point of the team. I'm concerned that whether it's Bargnani/DeRozan, or Rudy Gay or whoever else, that Lowry won't be happy being anything but the #1 guy.

I'm just weighing the options. Yes he's good and young and cheap and could blossom into something amazing. Or he could become a more talented Bayless 2.0. Unless you're feeling 90%+ that it's going to be option 1, then it might make sense to explore the option of trading him now, before the shine wears off his reputation and before he signs a hefty new contract.

I've been disappointed too, and I'm not at all opposed to trading him.

That seems a bit unfair. He has played very well for an extended period of time. He didn't have a great shooting night and made a few bad decisions, don't think it is necessary to throw him under the bus for a bad game. What aren't you throwing the guys who missed all their shots under the bus as well.

You don't recall Calderon's play after he 'won' the faceoff with TJ, Jack, and Lowry?

That seems a bit unfair. He has played very well for an extended period of time. He didn't have a great shooting night and made a few bad decisions, don't think it is necessary to throw him under the bus for a bad game. What aren't you throwing the guys who missed all their shots under the bus as well.

Matt52 wrote:

You don't recall Calderon's play after he 'won' the faceoff with TJ, Jack, and Lowry?

I think he has value, just not at $10.6M, without giving back any big/bad contracts.

I could still see any trade for Gay evolving to include a team like the Lakers (which might bring another team if Toronto doesn't want Gasol) or Boston, as potential ultimate landing spots for Calderon. I don't see many other likely teams.

I think he has value, just not at $10.6M, without giving back any big/bad contracts.

I could still see any trade for Gay evolving to include a team like the Lakers (which might bring another team if Toronto doesn't want Gasol) or Boston, as potential ultimate landing spots for Calderon. I don't see many other likely teams.

Calderon's contract is over half paid now.

Lets not kid ourselves on Jose's value. Just like Bargnani, everyone knows what he is. The difference is Raptor fans continue to think he has much more value than he actually does.

The problem is whatever team takes Jose will be sending assets to Memphis. Memphis is going to want to stay as competitive or more competitive with a stronger bench/rotation.

The Lakers have no assets to trade.
The Celtics assets are likely of little interest to Memphis.

My point is more this: why trade a lottery pick for a guy in his prime with 2 years left on his deal if you aren't going to use him properly or play him in a system that benefits him? You aren't going to change a guy like Lowry. He is what he is. Lowry is, in fact, playing some of the best ball of his career and no one is happy with him. That's fine but it makes you wonder what the hell Colangelo was thinking when he did this deal in the first place.

We may not agree on Gay, but we're definitely on the same page with Lowry. We've all seen what he can do when he plays his game, why change that???? Casey isnt satisfied with 8 asts per game?? Common now.

Lets not kid ourselves on Jose's value. Just like Bargnani, everyone knows what he is. The difference is Raptor fans continue to think he has much more value than he actually does.

The problem is whatever team takes Jose will be sending assets to Memphis. Memphis is going to want to stay as competitive or more competitive with a stronger bench/rotation.

The Lakers have no assets to trade.
The Celtics assets are likely of little interest to Memphis.

I meant that more from a salary-matching perspective in trade, as opposed to actual dollar value.

If the Raps are gung-ho to make a trade and Calderon isn't generating enough return, I could see them turning to Lowry as the trade asset instead.

I actually thought that Memphis might value decent young players on super cheap contracts, that Boston could offer (Sullinger, Bradley, Melo). Davis & Sullinger could be good insurance for Gasol & Randolph. Such a deal would also make Arthur expendable, possibly to be used in a subsequent trade for a wing (ie: I wonder if Arthur to Denver for Chandler could work for both Denver & Memphis).