Climate sensitivity to CO2 more limited than extreme projections: research

Nov 24, 2011

A new study suggests that the rate of global warming from doubling of atmospheric carbon dioxide may be less than the most dire estimates of some previous studies  and, in fact, may be less severe than projected by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report in 2007.

Authors of the study, which was funded by the National Science Foundation and published online this week in the journal Science, say that global warming is real and that increases in atmospheric CO2 will have multiple serious impacts.

However, the most Draconian projections of temperature increases from the doubling of CO2 are unlikely.

"Many previous climate sensitivity studies have looked at the past only from 1850 through today, and not fully integrated paleoclimate date, especially on a global scale," said Andreas Schmittner, an Oregon State University researcher and lead author on the Science article. "When you reconstruct sea and land surface temperatures from the peak of the last Ice Age 21,000 years ago  which is referred to as the Last Glacial Maximum  and compare it with climate model simulations of that period, you get a much different picture.

"If these paleoclimatic constraints apply to the future, as predicted by our model, the results imply less probability of extreme climatic change than previously thought," Schmittner added.

Scientists have struggled for years trying to quantify "climate sensitivity"  which is how the Earth will respond to projected increases of atmospheric carbon dioxide. The 2007 IPCC report estimated that the air near the surface of the Earth would warm on average by 2 to 4.5 degrees (Celsius) with a doubling of atmospheric CO2 from pre-industrial standards. The mean, or "expected value" increase in the IPCC estimates was 3.0 degrees; most climate model studies use the doubling of CO2 as a basic index.

Some previous studies have claimed the impacts could be much more severe  as much as 10 degrees or higher with a doubling of CO2  although these projections come with an acknowledged low probability. Studies based on data going back only to 1850 are affected by large uncertainties in the effects of dust and other small particles in the air that reflect sunlight and can influence clouds, known as "aerosol forcing," or by the absorption of heat by the oceans, the researchers say.

To lower the degree of uncertainty, Schmittner and his colleagues used a climate model with more data and found that there are constraints that preclude very high levels of climate sensitivity.

The researchers compiled land and ocean surface temperature reconstructions from the Last Glacial Maximum and created a global map of those temperatures. During this time, atmospheric CO2 was about a third less than before the Industrial Revolution, and levels of methane and nitrous oxide were much lower. Because much of the northern latitudes were covered in ice and snow, sea levels were lower, the climate was drier (less precipitation), and there was more dust in the air.

All these factor, which contributed to cooling the Earth's surface, were included in their climate model simulations.

The new data changed the assessment of climate models in many ways, said Schmittner, an associate professor in OSU's College of Earth, Ocean, and Atmospheric Sciences. The researchers' reconstruction of temperatures has greater spatial coverage and showed less cooling during the Ice Age than most previous studies.

High sensitivity climate models  more than 6 degrees  suggest that the low levels of atmospheric CO2 during the Last Glacial Maximum would result in a "runaway effect" that would have left the Earth completely ice-covered.

"Clearly, that didn't happen," Schmittner said. "Though the Earth then was covered by much more ice and snow than it is today, the ice sheets didn't extend beyond latitudes of about 40 degrees, and the tropics and subtropics were largely ice-free  except at high altitudes. These high-sensitivity models overestimate cooling."

On the other hand, models with low climate sensitivity  less than 1.3 degrees  underestimate the cooling almost everywhere at the Last Glacial Maximum, the researchers say. The closest match, with a much lower degree of uncertainty than most other studies, suggests climate sensitivity is about 2.4 degrees.

However, uncertainty levels may be underestimated because the model simulations did not take into account uncertainties arising from how cloud changes reflect sunlight, Schmittner said.

Reconstructing sea and land surface temperatures from 21,000 years ago is a complex task involving the examination of ices cores, bore holes, fossils of marine and terrestrial organisms, seafloor sediments and other factors. Sediment cores, for example, contain different biological assemblages found in different temperature regimes and can be used to infer past temperatures based on analogs in modern ocean conditions.

"When we first looked at the paleoclimatic data, I was struck by the small cooling of the ocean," Schmittner said. "On average, the ocean was only about two degrees (Celsius) cooler than it is today, yet the planet was completely different  huge ice sheets over North America and northern Europe, more sea ice and snow, different vegetation, lower sea levels and more dust in the air.

"It shows that even very small changes in the ocean's surface temperature can have an enormous impact elsewhere, particularly over land areas at mid- to high-latitudes," he added.

Schmittner said continued unabated fossil fuel use could lead to similar warming of the sea surface as reconstruction shows happened between the Last Glacial Maximum and today.

"Hence, drastic changes over land can be expected," he said. "However, our study implies that we still have time to prevent that from happening, if we make a concerted effort to change course soon."

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These "results" were obtained with one climate model only, and one known to underestimate polar warming/cooling. Hence the back projected cooling was underestimated - and therefore so too the CO2 enhanced warming.

3'C by 2010 remains the most reasonable estimate provided there are no reductions in emissions.

3'C guarantees a further 3'C in future warming just based on climate inertia alone.

"The closest match, with a much lower degree of uncertainty than most other studies, suggests climate sensitivity is about 2.4 degrees."

...in paragraph 14. For the mathematically challenged, this mean the climate, which has warmed 0.8°C, will warm another 0.4°C with no further CO increase. If we carry on to 540ppm CO, as seems entirely likely, that would mean another 1.6°C.

The researchers seem to have left out three most relevant factors which may have applied then but not now to ameliorate the effects of atmospheric CO2.

One: After Ice Ages, the melting waters over continents would produce many long lived shallow seas that soak up atmospheric CO2 in vast quantities and lock it up in vast BIOTA (algae/plankton) and FOSSIL forms (oil/gas/oil-shales)s.

Two: Human mass-deforestation did not apply then, so the plant kingdom was unfettered in its capacity to also quickly absorb and lock up carbon in vast land biota and coal/peat beds not 'harvested as now by humans.

Three: Open ocean biota was not subject to OVERFISHING on industrial scales like NOW, hence oceans would lock up carbon in BIOTA which FILLED the paleo-oceans to bursting then, and also accumulated in vast oceanic sediments which plate techtonics put deep under continental shelves for millennia more.

Therefore paleo-climate comparisons may be irrelevant in the present situation.

It is. And because of that scientists have gone on to estimate how much warming will be had.

The best estimates are 3'C with an additional 3'C to follow due to climate inertia.

6'C means the desertification of most of the earth's land surface.

Spot on, mate.

And on the way to that stage there will be vastly increased rates/severity/size of storm system events and out-of-season 'intrusions' of frosts/winds/floods which will SERIOUSLY and ever-more INCESSANTLY AFFECT food and transport and general economic/insurance and give us no respite the longer this warming trend is allowed to proceed by the deniers and 'bunny-in-the-headlights' commentators supporting their stupid denial until the car runs over them, when it will be too late to take PRO-active action.

The time for clear pro-active thinking/action is NOW.

Keep up the good work, mate....ignorant wreckers must not win THIS time....there is too much at stake for humanity.

From the IPCC report:"There is low confidence in any observed long-term (i.e., 40 years or more) increases in tropical cyclone activity (i.e., intensity, frequency, duration), after accounting for past changes in observing capabilities.... There is medium confidence that some regions of the world have experienced more intense and longer droughts ... There is limited to medium evidence available to assess climate-driven observed changes in the magnitude and frequency of floods at regional scales because the available instrumental records of floods at gauge stations are limited in space and time, and because of confounding effects of changes in land use and engineering. Furthermore, there is low agreement in this evidence, and thus overall low confidence at the global scale regarding even the sign of these changes."

@Kozyrai & @Noumenon Please excuse the rudeness of my good friend Vendicar buthe actually believes the scientific method is"The scientific method involves observing the world, formulating ahypothesis about it and verifying that hypothesis in the best waypossible." (Vendicar Decarian)I informed him that the method requires that you test your hypothesisby trying to disprove it and now he says I'm an "Idiot, retard, moron, ignoramus"The poor fellow doesn't realize his definition is actually thedefinition for confirmation bias. Apologies again but he reallybelieves he must only accept research that verifies his hypothesis soif you mention contary evidence he will call you terrible names. It's ashame but he really is a lovely guy and is lots of fun. He even thinks that science is a body though I explained it was a actually a method for acquiring knowledge rather than the knowledge itself. For him, suggesting the knowledge needs adjusting is an attack on science. Sorry

"There is low confidence in any observed long-term (i.e., 40 years or more) increases in tropical cyclone activity" - IPCC

Correct. Records that extend back 40 years are largely inadequate to determine a trend. Satellite observation of the limited areas of the earth had only just begun in the 1960's, and no computerized records of observations are available from that era.

And on the way to that stage there will be vastly increased rates/severity/size of storm system events and out-of-season 'intrusions' of frosts/winds/floods which will SERIOUSLY and ever-more INCESSANTLY AFFECT food and transport and general economic/insurance and give us no respite the longer this warming trend is allowed to proceed by the deniers and 'bunny-in-the-headlights' commentators supporting their stupid denial until the car runs over them, when it will be too late to take PRO-active action.

The time for clear pro-active thinking/action is NOW.

Keep up the good work, mate....ignorant wreckers must not win THIS time....there is too much at stake for human

Science is never settled, that's the point. Recently a neutrino was clocked moving faster than the speed of light. The validity of a hypothesis is not dependent on the validity of alternate hypotheses. Yet again you've used a classic straw man. Did you not read the article above? Saying the science is settled is a lie no matter how many times you tell it and is yet another example of your confirmation bias. Next time you actually attend class ask your science teacher , or is he a moron too?

@Kozyrai & @Noumenon Please excuse the rudeness of my good friend Vendicar buthe actually believes the scientific method is"The scientific method involves observing the world, formulating ahypothesis about it and verifying that hypothesis in the best waypossible." (Vendicar Decarian)I informed him that the method requires that you test your hypothesisby trying to disprove it and now he says I'm an "Idiot, retard, moron, ignoramus"The poor fellow doesn't realize his definition is actually thedefinition for confirmation bias. Apologies again but he reallybelieves he must only accept research that verifies his hypothesis soif you mention contary evidence he will call you terrible names. It's ashame but he really is a lovely guy and is lots of fun.

What are you blathering about? What contrary evidence do you put forward?

This historical review of the climate scandal contains links to many experimental observations and quantitative analysis that falsify AGW dogma on the origin, composition, and source of energy in the Sun that heats the Earth and sustains life in a state of continuous evolution - responding to Earth's continuously changing climate.

"The scientific method involves observing the world, formulating ahypothesis about it and verifying that hypothesis in the best waypossible." (Vendicar Decarian)"

@Parsec My hypothesis is that my good friend Vendicar, and many in the IPCC. confuse the scientific method with confirmation bias.http://en.wikiped...ion_biasHis quote from above confirms this.(He said this yesterday.) though today he seems to be backpedaling. Activists start with an agenda which they try to prove by cherry picking evidence (Ie they talk about "The Cause"). Good science is objective. It requires you try to disprove your hypothesis by testing it (ie you don't try to verify it you try to deverify it) Calling people terrible names has led to my second Hypothesis"That Vendicar and other name callers are actually shills for big oil who are trying to drive innocent readers into the skeptic camp with bullying and bad behavior"I haven't worked out how to test this yet though.

Reality Check - There's a reason they were left out - the scenarios aren't as you imagine. Here are the problems with your concerns -One: After Ice Ages, the melting waters over continents...

Problem - Oil and gas are primarily from extinction events and were deposited much further back than the last or even the last several ice ages. Melting ice can actually dissolve carbonates releasing CO2.

Two: Human mass-deforestation did not apply then,'harvested...

There have been huge rather extensive mass de-forestations, not only by ice ages (probably the most enduring), but also by fires from volcanoes and asteroid strikes that made Tunguska look like mild.

Three: Open ocean biota was not subject to OVERFISHING -

Problem - Overfishing is species specific - but doesn't actually change the standing biomass of the oceans or their relative carbon reservoirs - which are rapidly filled by non-fished species. Overfishing is increasing lower trophic level activities - algae blooms for example

If I'm still around during the tropical years... I might migrate to a one of the countries that make up the lion... one of them has the 2nd best standard of the OECD when it comes to caring for their children, compared to my countries shameful standard ... the second lowest.

In "One", the point was the whole vast continents were covered with meltwater that would quickly absorb whatever CO2 from ANY source, and store that in the latest sedimentary layers that would become the latest gas/oil-forming strata LATER.

In "Two", the point was the forests would have recovered all over the globe within a couple hundred years after any such NATURAL mass deforestation you mentioned....whereas the forests NOW are NOT being allowed to recover over the whole globe because of human food/housing etc expansion with increasing population.

In "Three", the point as that overfishing/pollution has produced dead zones where CO2/Methane is being produced. Also, large areas of the open ocean are virtually 'sterile' because they lack nutrients which PELAGIC FISHLIFE being industrailly harvested no longer 'fertilises in passing through' with their excrement that allowed algae etc to flourish and soak up CO2 all year round.

If you lived in Australia over the past few years you would be more 'in tune' to what is happening to the weather patterns and crops and transportation/infrastructure etc. because of severe and persistent unusual/unseasonal events 'coming together' more often and giving little respite to farming and other industries.

When one adds that to all the unusual patterns/events all over the globe in recent times, one cannot fail to grasp what we are in for if the warming and hence more turbulent mixing of atmospheric system interactions from cool poles to hotter low latitude air masses laden with much more moisture and the widespread and severe 'fronts' caused when these cool-warm air masses collide in ever more unusual places which where previously spared the 'storm patterns' that we see even there now.

See it for yourself in the news reports. More unusual patterns/storms etc.

quote-"Hence, drastic changes over land can be expected," he said. "However, our study implies that we still have time to prevent that from happening, if we make a concerted effort to change course soon."

An extremely misleading statement considering the warming of the earth is not 100% man made.

Entirely possible, many (many!) are. The comment wasn't speaking to intelligence so much as an apparent lack of reading comprehension and a willingness to reinforce a belief structure with information that refutes it. Which, I'll grant, is not a hallmark of intelligence.

@Kozyrai & @Noumenon Please excuse the rudeness of my good friend Vendicar but he actually believes the scientific method is "The scientific method involves observing the world, formulating a hypothesis about it and verifying that hypothesis in the best way possible." (Vendicar Decarian)

I informed him that the method requires that you test your hypothesis by trying to disprove it and now he says I'm an "Idiot, retard, moron , ignoramus"

Yes, also, making specific future quantitative predictions and then verifying those predictions, is the only way to gauge the precision of scientific understanding. Retroactive verifications of models is not a valid substitute.

Really the issue is not the core science, it is the precision of knowledge claimed. which imo borders on scientific fraud.

Unfortunately for VendiTard... People like him encourage me to make the following actions... Stock up on 60 watt lightbulbs, Overfill my coolant, keep my damaged catalytic converter strictly for the sound it makes, give Hybrid vehicle drivers the bird and last but not least, donate to the NRA.

How does the "Trololololololololol" feel in what used to be an intellectual forum before you hit the "sign up" button.

Wow VD...pretty extreme if it's true. Of course, it is black friday and in my half hour car ride to work this morning I heard on the news that two guys shot each other in at a toys R us over a freakin toy, 20 overweight people trampled a walmart employee to death, some woman pepper sprayed 20 people to keep them away from "her" stuff....this is the lifestyle the soldiers who's death VD cheered were sent to defend?

Oh, it's true and there are others, but I won't post them, a simple google search will verify. He's been a commie wakco environMentalist, anti-capitalist, anti-conservative, anti-America, Canadian troll since dial-up and Netscape days.

"Oh, it's true and there are others, but I won't post them, a simple google search will verify. He's been a commie wakco environMentalist, anti-capitalist, anti-conservative, anti-America, Canadian troll since dial-up and Netscape days." - NoumenTard

You fail to note that I predicted every aspect of your national downfall and disgrace decades ago. Why omit that NumenTard?

And I still intend to dance on the smoldering ruins of your cities.

That time is less than a decade away, and I've already purchased my dancing shoes.

Which it should be, unless the system modeled is chaotic in which chase a retrodictive models does not make the the system predictive. Weather is pretty chaotic.

Having said that, I wouldn't rejoice if I was a denier; So far what I've read is that with these corrections, the temperatures rise only by half as much as some the most extreme temps. That is not going to stop the environmental damages done by such huge and rapid swings in climate. 10C vs 5C.

Still the CO2 emissions continue in an exponential increase; something I don't think this model takes into account. So It's still the same predictions; Not much of a future. Correct me If I'm wrong.

The state of Chaotic systems can neither be predicted nor postdicted, since by definition the system is highly sensitive to initial conditions.

Like quantum mechanical models, models of chaotic systems can only predict the probability of the climate system being in a specific state (weather), and compute the average bulk characteristics (climate), of the climate system.

RyggTard is, as always, Completely clueless as are all of his fellow Libertairan\Randite brothers and sisters.

What is certain is that America is dead as a nation primarily because of anti-government, anti-progress, anti-science, pro business traitors in the Republican party and Libertarian/Randite ideologies.

As an American liberal (The majority by the way), I feel that. But its true in just about every conservative run Government in the world and the conservative economies are the ones with all of the debt issues. The liberal run governments are doing just fine.

"The premise of catastrophe produces the conclusion that the political and economic underpinnings of Western civilization must be discarded. Governments must take control of economies. Capitalism must give way. All decisions must be made by our scientific and political elite, for only they can save us from doom.""the conclusion, the proposition that Western civilization must change. And it is, literally, a nonfalsifiable proposition: If global warming and climate change help lead to it, then hurray for global warming and climate change. If not, well, then, theyll find something else.""Skepticism, the prime scientific virtue, still lives, in other words. If nothing else, Ivar Giaever may yet be able to rejoin the American Physical Society."http://www.weekly...l?page=3

Skepticism in the scientific method is without debate R2. The human mind is so powerful that occasionally we believe fallacy over reality to such an extent that the world revolves around that fallacy. The mind is extremely powerful, and it very easy to argue against fact based on that.

I think there is enough evidence to declare Co2 pollutant and that human released greenhouse gasses are causing many weather abnormalities and extremes.

Conservatives, who support liberty and opportunity for everyone, are self-serving?

Conservatives like Hitler?

Because there is no "downfall". More hysteria from a troll.

I guess you consider more hungry in USA than all of China a raging success? That the government comes in dead last #49 on social programs like education and health while spending more money on military buildup (for WW3?) than the rest of the world COMBINED.

Conservatives governments are losers. That is one most obvious explanations to reject the right wings across the world. We believe in humanity and the human potential. Conservatives just want to make a buck and usually are sucky people. Be a liberal for a month. You might like your self for a change.

@Noumenon Yes, also, making specific future quantitative predictions and then verifying those predictions, is the only way to gauge the precision of scientific understanding. Retroactive verifications of models is not a valid substitute.

".. while spending more money on military buildup (for WW3?) than the rest of the world COMBINED." - Kochevnik

I told a gaggle of American Conservatives that last month. They called me a liar. So I provided them with a chart of global military spending showing that the U.S. spends more than the rest of the world in total.

In Canada the Conservative Mulroney Government followed the disastrous policies of Reagan and borrowed a couple of hundred billion dollars before he was turfed out of office for gross incompetence.

The next Canadian leader was a liberal who started to pay down the debt.

But the Conservatives fought that policy at every turn insisting that a surplus that was being used to pay down the debt was in fact stolen money that should have been returned to the people in the form of lower taxes.

Fortunately for Canadians, the Liberal government was able to ignore the Conservative Morons and managed to pay down a considerable fraction of the national debt.

The COnservatives were voted back into power 6 years ago and immediately lowered the speed at which the debt was being retired. With the U.S. recession Canada's debt under the conservatives is climbing again.

An example of another 'liberal' failure, caused by the failures of 'liberals' in the EU:"Whether in government or finance, he seemed to always believe thered be a bailout. He destroyed MF Global by betting that the European Union wouldnt let some of its troubled governments default because they were, of course, too big to fail. In Jersey, he simply ignored one of the worst pension crises in the country because the idea that wed let hundreds of thousands of government workers lose their pensions is also unthinkable.

In the worlds where Corzine operates, the next bailout is always just around the corner if you are big enough and daring enough."Corzine was safer back in New Jersey politics, where he could use other peoples money liberally and engage in shady accounting practices without worrying about the kind of dire consequences he may now face. Nobodys going to occupy Trenton.

"America's tax-and-spend Democrats ignore at their peril Sunday's political object lesson from Spain, where 22.6 percent unemployment and other economic ills led voters to overwhelmingly reject Socialists in favor of the conservative Popular Party.""But economic disaster on his Socialist predecessor's watch helped make the difference this time.

With the situation demanding austerity measures beyond his predecessor's obviously insufficient cuts in spending and state payrolls, Rajoy's resounding electoral mandate will be a major asset. The Spanish people repudiated the Socialists' approach -- loud and clear."http://www.pittsb...454.html

Name a candidate that you would support would not have been tarred and feathered just 20 years ago. Extremism is where the conservatives have gone. You want no government? That is what you have; and it pisses this voter off. How much do you support the welfare state? Welfare for the rich is what you support. And unless we are so lucky, you are not rich R2.

@Vendie, unfortunately as you can see, the US has one party that are absolutist with money to buy astro-turfers and turd blossoms.Unfortunately these astro-turd-blossoms are all over the world.

@R2, I don't know why you complain. The taxes under the Democrats have usually been less than the repubs and we did more with less. The purpose of government, in the end, is to improve the human condition. If not then it should be a government of suspect.

Apparently it has missed the attention of R2 that "conservatives" engage in deficit spending when in power, and oppose it when not.

Hypocrites.

And apparently, there are several people here who have somehow mixed up the Republicans with the American Conservatives. This is a mistaken notion expressed by many people in the U.S. and other countries who cannot seem to grasp the glaring differences between the Republican agenda and the Conservative movement. The Conservatives in the U.S. is very different from what is generally called Conservative in other countries. In the U.S., Conservatives do not believe in "tax and spend", redistribution (legal theft) of other peoples' wealth and bigger government like the Liberal Democrats. We believe in avoiding raising taxes by cutting down on certain programs while not eliminating them entirely, in order to balance the budget. We believe in maintaining a strong military, but we disagree with needless wars such as Afghanistan

We want a better taxation program that is less punitive and is much more affordable, i.e. the Fair Tax. The Fair Tax allows every worker to take home his/her full salary without Federal, State, or Local taxes taken out first. In effect, your full salary is non-taxable. The only time you pay taxes is when you buy goods and services. THAT is what goes to the government. There is no need for an IRS or audits. If you don't buy anything, you don't pay taxes. Since everyone buys goods and services and workers will have more of their own money to spend, the roads and bridges will still be built, etc. from the taxes paid from sales. There are many websites that can explain the Fair Tax far better than I can. That is only one of the things that differentiates Conservatives from main stream Republicans.

We have no intention of eliminating Social Security or Medicare for those who are retired already. But for young workers, we believe that they would be better empowered by investing some of their money into retirement accounts for their old age. That has been done in Texas or Arizona, and has been a successful program.

So, kindly refrain from lumping American Conservatives in with Republicans. They are Wall Street, as are Liberal Democrats. We are not like them.The last true Conservative President was Ronald Reagan. There have been no others since.

deepsand. . . .I am poor and yet, I am a Conservative. IF I ever become wealthy, I would have done it on my own merits and skills, not by stealing money through legalized theft from the likes of Senator John Kerry, Nancy Pelosi, or the Kennedys. These rich people are all Liberal Democrats and are very UNlikely to give up their wealth just because you and other Liberals don't think they should have that money. And when I croak finally, I want to leave whatever I have to my children, NOT to the state. If I'm still poor, they will have their memories of me. But if I become rich, do you honestly think that I'm going to allow the government to forcibly, practically at the point of a gun, to take from me what I've EARNED? Surely you can't be serious. LOL

And are you really going to blame ME and other Conservatives for all the dimwit druggie dirtbags of the world who couldn't be bothered with getting a free education and getting a JOB afterwards and who think that people like ME owe them a living and a nice place to live?? You've got to be kidding. People like you need to go to John Kerry and Skanky Pelosi and demand that they give up THEIR wealth. See what it gets you.

Strange that we still think Earth's climate is not effected by other variables from within the solar system and galaxy. There are probably many hidden variables that we do not yet understand. Very exciting future, I'm most pleased to see climate science evolving as it has. It is sad there is so much politics involved, but it will evolve no matter. =)

naqe. . . .I seem to have been drawn into a political discourse and for that, I apologize. I felt it was necessary to set certain people in this thread straight who spoke about Conservatives as though they know what we are all about, but in reality have no clue about the movement and its agenda. There are those who prefer to blame most of the climate changes on humans and will swallow anything fed to them as long as it comes out of a computer with an climate model algorithm or something like that. They need to take their message to the world and tell people to STOP POLLUTING. That's what needs to be done. Get the message out to everyone instead of griping about it here. Buy or rent a bullhorn; go up and down the streets and tell everyone. Buy advertising space. . .TV, radio, magazines. . .talk to people in malls, wherever. In every city, town and hamlet. . .get the word out to the world. Don't pollute the Earth. What is so hard about that, I'd like to know.

Interesting, Pirouette, that you fail to indict the likes of the Koch Bros. and their ilk, the very ones who are trying to kill the "free education" that you reference and replace it with private, for profit schools.

Your brand of "conservatism" is quickly beginning to sound like nothing more than "I want to be one of the 1%."

Despite the many claims to the contrary, the wealthy did NOT become wealthy on their own merits and efforts alone.

Liberals create wealth while conservatives do everything they can to hoard that same wealth. This creates the business cycle.

How do 'liberals' create wealth by stealing it?The more wealth private individuals can keep for themselves to invest and spend, the more wealth is created. 'Liberals' support taking wealth from those who create it and redistributing that wealth to those who won't.

Liberals create wealth while conservatives do everything they can to hoard that same wealth. This creates the business cycle. - kockevnik

How do 'liberals' create wealth by stealing it?The more wealth private individuals can keep for themselves to invest and spend, the more wealth is created. 'Liberals' support taking wealth from those who create it and redistributing that wealth to those who won't.

Once people like kockevnik and vendicar makes statements like the above absurdity, I must bail. There is no sense in discussing anything with them because they are absolutely clueless as pointed out by piroutte, and will just say anything.

They are clueless about conservative principals; the power of free-market capitalism and egoistic individualism, in creating the greatest economy and standard of living the world has ever seen.

They cry about the greedy rich and their pockets, but are clueless about the vast scope of fraud in welfare and gov entitlement programs.

This is carbon dioxide curve, as measured at Hawaii. One doesn't need to be climatic expert for being able to recognize, all anti-warming actions and billions spent in carbon tax so far had a zero net effect. This "strategy" simply doesn't work at all.

But it illustrates too, the rise of carbon dioxide levels is insensitive to the period of global warming in recent decade, when the global mean temperature didn't increase significantly. Instead of it, the carbon dioxide levels continued to rise in undiminished rate. I don't think, the people are responsible for all this increasing concentration of carbon dioxide. In my theory the Earth itself is heating, being surrounded with cloud of antineutrinos from dark matter, which are accelerating the decay of radioactive elements inside of Earth mantle and oceans and it releases the carbon dioxide dissolved from there.

What's rather amusing, and is indicative of his ignorance, is that Scott Nudds (Vendicar) thinks that if the USA economy collapses it won't effect Canada. Most of the Canadian population is snuggled up real close to the US border.

Conservatives support spending other peoples money so as to concentrate wealth unto themselves. - deepsand

This idiotic association of conservatives with the rich, greed, and wall street,... is pure unmitigated intellectual fraud. This is trough feed for young clueless liberal mush heads.

There are plenty of rich liberals that participate in the free-market and wall street.

EVERYONE wants to "concentrate wealth unto themselves", you twit. That desire is a egoistic one and as such is naturally intrinsic to every individual. It is a force that free-market capitalism depends on to function. All other liberal forces are counter & dampen economies.

Everyone ACTS in terms of individualism, egoistic motives, seeking profit and benefit from others, NOT collectivism. The latter is counter to intrinsic nature of man.

The fraud in Welfare, Disability, and Gov Spending, far exceed, by orders of magnitude, that of left's caricature,"The Rich",.. all due to liberalism.

Everyone ACTS in terms of individualism, egoistic motives, seeking profit and benefit from others, NOT collectivism. The latter is counter to intrinsic nature of man.

Collectivism is the means 'liberals' use to boost their egos and seek profit.Coercion is the only method left to them to obtain their perfect society. Every attempt at voluntary collectivism by 'liberals' has failed to be accepted by the entire society. Why? As you pointed out, it is contrary to human nature.The only successful collectivist societies are monasteries. Their members are volunteers with high moral character.

Conservatism, individualistic egoism, and free market capitalism is more in line with natural laws (e.g evolutionary principals) than ad-hoc liberal social engineering, which is more in line with dogmatism.

As Religion is idealistic, the far left liberal Utopian Society is idealistic.

Liberals create wealth while conservatives do everything they can to hoard that same wealth. This creates the business cycle.

If Liberals create wealth, then why aren't ALL Liberals wealthy already? Hoarding wealth? Are you absolutely CERTAIN that it's hoarding, or is it that most businessmen and women keep a certain amount of money for themselves and the rest goes back INTO the business.Kovechnik. . .you need to go back to school for Economics101, as do Venditurd and some others who have no idea how Capitalism works. ALSO, in your smart little world of Socialism, do you honestly believe that by removing wealth from those have EARNED it, that it will make you and everyone else wealthy too?? You've got it wrong, fella. There will ALWAYS BE poor people in this and other countries. AND there will always be people who are a DRAG on their fellow citizens and want to be taken care of by taxpayer money. That's how humanity is and it won't change because of YOUR say-so

I guess you consider more hungry in USA than all of China a raging success? - kockevnik

Mindless non-sense. The poor in the USA have cable, cell phones, air-cond, cars, and hdtv's, while the middle class in China earn $200 per month. Also, China, quit ironically, had to resort to economic Capitalism to survive as a country,... though they are still communist controlled.

That the [US] government comes in dead last on social programs like education and health while spending more money on military buildup

The above facts should have told you that the gov is inept, ..that no matter how much is spent it continues to fail, a conservative point. Why? Because the gov does not have to compete, and there is no one "behind the counter" that makes a profit in gov, so there is zero motive force to improve effectiveness and efficiency. That's why.

The military is the exception, and the primary purpose for the existence of government, and the definition of a country to begin with.

As I said in another thread wrt to that non-sense, ,...it is not rational to project political affiliation from one era onto that of another. The terms liberalism and conservatism require historical context, as they have relative meanings in different era's and different countries.

Obviously Hitler was all about Government Control and Social Engineering, quit counter to modern American conservatism. Not a matter of opinion.

Your knowledge of politics consists of cartoonish caricatures of conservatives. It is clear that you were violated by left wing propaganda.

It's funny how they only care about carbon monoxide. Methane is much more of a threat. I do believe the last time all the methane was released from the sea bed (happening again now BTW) was the end permian era where something like 50-90% of all life on earth went extinct.

I'd say that's a doomsday scenario and there is every indication we are right on track.

AND another thing you Collectivists/Socialists have obviously NEVER noticed or thought of is:1) a government that is given or forcibly takes too much power BECOMES that 1% wealthy that you are so intent on destroying. 2) The rest of you Liberal/Socialists will REMAIN the USEFUL IDIOTS that you are, and you will NOT be allowed to accumulate wealth of your own EVER. 3) Everything you own will belong to the government who will redistribute it to everyone else according to THEIR needs. You most likely will not even have a pot to piss in that you can call your own. 4) If you decide to keep something for yourself, you will be labeled a "hoarder" and will be prosecuted by your peers as a criminal and sentenced. Jail time may undo your Socialist radicalist ideas.5) The 1% wealthy that you despise now will leave your country, abandon their factories, and leave EVERYBODY out of a job, Even more people will be unemployed when the business owners go away. This is what you want?

6) Everyone else who doesn't think the way you do will be rounded up and put into "concentration camps" to be reeducated, and if they can't be reeducated, they will be euthanized. Oh, what a glorious new world that will be, right? Gas chambers should do the job and Kochevnik and Vendicreep can be the executioners.You people will leave yourselves a very narrow space with not much wiggle room. If Capitalism is ever abandoned here, but Red China has embraced it, it would only prove that you useful idiots have a mental disorder and need to be in a mental institution. 7) You will not change your nitwit ideology/Socialist moronic values. For you to change your mind, you would need a brain transplant.

LOL. . . Liberals/Collectivists/Socialists are not for "the people" and never have been. They only understand that "the people" are a useful tool to drive and be the "MOB MENTALITY" to scare normal thinking people into embracing Collectivist/RADICAL SOCIALISTIC thought and, ultimately, full blown Communism. Read Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals", which is Obama's bible. I don't bother with FoxNews anymore except only occasionally. However, I DO listen to NPR for amusement, noticing the clipped tones and carefully worded propaganda of those elitist morons, the useful tools who believe they know what's best for mankind. It just proves that their college educations did not make them any smarter than the average knuckle-dragging doofuses amongst them. . . .which reminds me of Venditurd and Kovechnik. ROFLOL

Vendicar_Decarian

It's funny how they only care about carbon monoxide. Methane is much more of a threat. I do believe the last time all the methane was released from the sea bed (happening again now BTW) was the end permian era where something like 50-90% of all life on earth went extinct.

I'd say that's a doomsday scenario and there is every indication we are right on track.

That would be Carbon DIOXIDE. I agree about the Methane and that it is a greater threat to life as we know it. I also think that our Earth is in for a lot more volcanic action, both on land and undersea and that Methane is a precursor of what is in store for our species. There's really no way to tell what's going on in the upper or lower mantle, even though we have seismographs and other technology. CO2 is preferable to Methane since plant life doesn't absorb Methane to survive. Warming an cooling in cycles, that's what our planet is all about. Even if the seas rise, the CO2 in the atmosphere will not prevent

The ideological Libertarian/Randite demand for open markets has caused America's manufacturing sector to take flight from their own nation.

This transfer of jobs overseas is in large part the reason for America's ongoing economic collapse, and the principle reason that even with those Americans who are lucky to be working, average wages after correcting for inflation, have fallen to below 1999 levels.

When Libertarian/Randites were told this would happen, they insisted that Americans would excell in a new knowledge based economy (a fantasy), and that the jobs that would be lost were undesirable anyhow (a fantasy).

This biblically sized exodus has been followed by the movement of Analytics, R&D, Engineering, and even service sector jobs where possible.

This was all done of course to maximize Corporate profits and assist in the transfer of wealth from the middle class to the wealthiest American's and Corporations.

The Libertarian/Randite prescription to solve the American Unemployment problem is to demand more of the same poison that created the problem in the first place, thereby insuring the continued rape of the American middle class.

Probable meaning: "alcoholics anonymous". Somehow I always suspected that Venditurdinous comes to Physorg in a drunken stupor by the stupid comments he always makes regarding his ideas of how society works. His Libertarian/Randite/Conservative rants are proof positive that he drinks either too many cheap beers or a full bottle of Jack Daniels or whatever. Only a person in a drunken stupor could think up such dimwitted thoughts on political ideology and the future of mankind. Venditurd has obviously lost millions of brain cells and laps up anything now.

"It's funny how they only care about carbon monoxide." - Conservative Cave Man

VendorOfTurds says:One would think that someone whining that the political realities of the absorption spectra of CO2 would put together enough brain cells to know that CO2 isn't Carbon Monoxide.

I presume not enough brain cells exist to be tasked with the job.

One would think that VendorOfTurds would be able to put together enough brain cells to realize that Cave_man's comment about Carbon MONOXIDE was a TYPO and his real intent was DIOXIDE. But Venditurdinous is in dire need of someone to BASH while in his drunken stupor, probably because his mama doesn't care diddlysquat about him.

LOL, I see more cowards sock puppets logged in to rate me ones, as if the ratings mean anything at this site.

ryggesogn3 | gregor2 | CManhole82 | DenseAetherTheory | Pirouline |

Dayum. . .now the sockpuppets are revising our user names to make people think they're us?Seems like they're now reaching back to their 10 year old - grade school bag of tricks for ways to get back at decent people who enter these Physorg threads. What a jerkoff FrankHerbert and his cronies are.

Conservatism, individualistic egoism, and free market capitalism is more in line with natural laws...."

Oh yeah, lets just eat our children. That's a natural law too.

You're advocating eating of children? Are you daft? Or is it that you are so incensed with the fact that true American Conservatism is far superior to the insanity of Collectivist/Socialist/Communist ideology that you are about to go mad and start ripping kids apart and eating their flesh? Perhaps a few nights in a mental hospital and a visit to your local friendly psychiatrist might cure you of evil thoughts. Muahahahahahahahahaaaaa

Capitalists treat PROFITS as THEIRS, and 'screw the public/poor' upon whose back/society they made those profits. But when things go sour for the 'markets/businesses', these 'capitalists' suddenly 'believe' in SOCIALISING their LOSSES onto society/poor for BAILOUTS and their GOVT to clean up the 'markets mess'.

"Global Financial Crisis", anyone?

The point is neither EXTREME capitalism nor EXTREME socialism is sustainable.

Only a middle path between extremes is sustainable. It is the intelligent way to go.

Yet extreme ideologies/greed for profit/power still seems to flourish because populace is ignorant of these and is gullible for the cons being perpetrated on them from time to time by one 'extreme gang' or the other.

Humanity has advanced technologically/scientifically, but mass intelligence is still way too low and mass gullibility still way too high to resist crooks and scammers using 'ideology' in lieu of logic.

Of late, despite 9/11 attacks on US by extremists, it is US, NATO and Western Democracies in UN who seem to be real friends of Muslim/Islamic peoples trying to get rid of their tyrants, putting lives and treasure in jeopardy for the sake of those being killed in Libya, etc.

Whereas Russia and China VETO attempts to give these people a say in their own govt.!

China and Russia want to keep the 'status quo' of tyrannies/murderers put in place during the 'cold war' era, while the rest of the world wants to move on from such idiotic ideological madness.

Next time anyone criticises the US et al, perhaps they should look at these OTHER powers which the US et al have to contend with who want to CONTINUE the madness and murder of Muslim/Islamic peoples for their own ends, eh?

US is no 'saint', but compared to Russia/China, it is the BEST HOPE for world sanity in the end. Hence US military/political muscle is justified for now.

these 'capitalists' suddenly 'believe' in SOCIALISING their LOSSES onto society/poor for BAILOUTS and their GOVT to clean up the 'markets mess'.

These are not capitalists.However, I can understand those in business that consistently have their hands tied by the state, and when their businesses fail because of the state, they justifiably demand compensation.Maybe the best solution is to just shrug and stay out businesses the govt heavily regulates. If the govt thinks it can do better, let them.

You miss the point entirely. Today, there are human beings, capitals all, who sell men women and children into slavery every day of the year. Anything and everything for a buck.. kroner, shilling, etc. What will you do for wealth, Pirouette?These days, you don't have to be Atilla to conquer, you simply have to have enough money to buy what you want. I want you daughter... How much?

@RealityCheck. . . .perhaps you and others are not aware, but there are several different types of "Capitalists". I'm a Capitalist and I'm almost sure you are also. I worked for 32 years at my job and EARNED my salary. I was not a loafer or backslider. I was productive and I took pride in my work. I paid into my pension plan and now am living comfortably. Do you think that I should be forced to give half or more of my pension to the POOR and the welfare queens and kings in our society? Do you think that I should be FORCED to give up half of my earned pension to the government so that they can then give MY money to people who don't wish to work for a living and always have their hand out for the gov't to give them MY money? And if I don't want to give up half of my monthly pension the gov't will quickly throw me in jail? MY profit is my pension. THAT is MY brand of Capitalism.

Then there are the Liberals who are on BOTH sides of the political aisle, who mix their Socialist ideology with Capitalism because it enriches them financially. These Liberals are in BOTH parties. . .Democrats AND Republicans. From the top: a partial listBarack Obama; Nancy Pelosi; John Kerry; Chris Dodd; Harry Reid; Barney Frank; et al. From the President on down to Senators and Congressmen and women, they are ALL corrupt; and I still haven't started on the Republican corruption. Several Democrats are tax cheats and several Republicans accept gifts from lobbyists to push certain bills to become law. There is just TOO MUCH corruption in Washington, DC. That's why the Conservative Party came into being. . .to help PREVENT corruption amongst Republicans and to get the budget balanced and to see to it that the U.S. Constitution is followed by all, including the President.

There are also the very rich men like GEORGE SOROS, who is so rich that he has brought countries down to their knees financially, and is probably still attempting that with the United States. HE is a Capitalist who is also a Socialist/Communist. An old man now, he sold out his fellow JEWS to the Nazis when he was 14. . .then went on to make his fortune. HIS brand of Capitalism is evil. He is a Jew who hates Jews, and he hates Capitalists and the free market. A very mentally phucked up devil of a man, but a genius at making money. He's another Liberal who hates the United States.There are many others I could cite, but it's getting late and I'm tired. Anyway, there's nothing wrong with making a profit. It's the process that's important, not how much you make.

You miss the point entirely. Today, there are human beings, capitals all, who sell men women and children into slavery every day of the year. Anything and everything for a buck.. kroner, shilling, etc. What will you do for wealth, Pirouette?These days, you don't have to be Atilla to conquer, you simply have to have enough money to buy what you want. I want you daughter... How much?

twinners. . .none of my children are for sale. . . .and if you want to know why, my Glock says so, as does my friends Smith & Wesson. And since you have a need to know, my children all are well armed and don't put up with $hit from anybody either. I sincerely hope I have answered your question to your satisfaction.

If you are so into slavery, then you may want to take a trip to Saudi Arabia or the African countries where slavery in America began when the Arabs kidnapped black Africans and sold them to the white slave traders to bring to America to work on the plantations. Slavery is still happening in Saudi Arabia. You will be happy there.

"If you're not Liberal when you're young, you have no heart. If you're not Conservative when you're mature, you have no brains." - NoumenTard

Poor Numentard. He would rather not remember that the vast majority of Scientists are Liberal.

Why is that Tard Boy?

So tell us, VendorOfTurds. . . .how many of these vast majority of Liberal "Scientists" have you interviewed to find out their innermost thoughts on their political leanings? 100? 1,000? 10,000? Did you pay a professional poll taker to get your "facts"? OR did you go from university to university to Monsanto to NASA to GE to Smith-Kline to the ESA and everywhere else where scientists may be lurking, just to come to the conclusion that scientists are mostly Liberals as opposed to. . . .what? Capitalists? You seem to forget that scientists are always scrambling for funding for their research from everywhere and anywhere they can get it. They are capitalists, you dimwit. You are a liar.

@deep$hitooops...deepsand. . . .I have been a Capitalist all my life and now you say I don't know what a Capitalist is?If you bothered to read my previous posts on the different TYPES of Capitalists, you MIGHT have noticed that some people use Capitalism to punish their enemies; some use it to further their political careers, both Democrat and Republican; some use Capitalism to run their businesses so that they can HIRE the unemployed so that those people can make a good living and take care of their families, as well as being productive in their job; but the great majority use Capitalism to have the money to buy a house, a car, food, entertainment, college education, etc. and a nice pension in their old age. You anti-Capitalists are therefore, AGAINST all these things I have just mentioned. You are, therefore, PRO-SLAVERY because dependency on the government for support IS slavery and prolongs that old "SLAVE MENTALITY" that most people all over the world reject.

...US is no 'saint', but compared to...Hence US military/political muscle is justified for now.

this has probably said for every empire that has existied throughout the course of human history, and in every case, there was probably quite a few folks that thought differently.

The point was that in THIS present case the ONLY 'others' trying to maintain the old cold-war tyrants/empires are China and Russia and THEIR puppet states still in existence.

The fact that the Arab Leauge and Turkey and all the Muslim/Islamic pwoples currently under tyrannies are ASKING for outside help to replace their tyrannical govt with more democratic govt.

The US is no 'empire'. Democracies CHOOSE who they will associate with. In this case the affected muslim/islamic peoples suffering tyrannical empire 'leftovers' are the one's who WANT the US, NATO and their democractic UN allies to help THEM.

Hardly an indictment of the US et al, if these people are BEGGING for US etc intervention.

For those who do not understand that the US is indeed an empire, albeit an accidental one, I recommend a reading of "The Next Decade: Where Weve Been.and Where Were Going" by George Friedman, founder of STRATFOR, an international private intelligence firm and a leading source of geopolitical intelligence.

If you are so into slavery, then you may want to take a trip to Saudi Arabia or the African countries where slavery in America began when the Arabs kidnapped black Africans and sold them to the white slave traders to bring to America to work on the plantations. Slavery is still happening in Saudi Arabia. You will be happy there.

Right lol. What is your point in even bringing this up?

Hey everyone slavery *WAS NOT* the fault of any white people in the United States. They were just offered too good of a deal by those dastardly Arabs! We can't be held responsible!

It's not like Augustus went around proclaiming the death of the Republic and his ascension to the throne. Augustus' success was in keeping the idea of the Republic alive, even if the state ceased to function as a republic. It was a good 200 years after Augustus death until his successors outright quit pretending the Republic still existed and a good 300 years until is was *officially* abolished.

So just because we have a constitution, rule of law, elections, whatever it is you think that disqualifies the US from being an empire does not.

Trust me; those invested in the state cult, such as yourself, are incapable of realizing when society deviates from its own standards. Such mentalities lead to unchecked nationalism which eventually progresses to fascism, the extreme end of the conservative spectrum.

It is the 'progressive'/'liberal'/socialist that is fully invested in state power.Instead of proposing technical solutions to their fabricated problem, AGWites immediately proposed political solutions that increased the power of govts.

So just because we have a constitution, rule of law, elections,

They have no meaning if the 'liberals' refuse to follow or enforce the laws. How many times has Castro been 'elected'? Why won't the federal govt enforce its immigration laws and why does it attack US states that attempt to enforce those laws?

Had you a reasonably good understanding of geopolitics you would have no need of the question.

I will rephrase, how is the USA an empire?

Read the cited book from STRATFOR's founder.

Or, read some of their materials available free on-line to non-subscribers.

An empire is measured, not by the land it holds, but by the power it exerts. And, as the only standing superpower, one geographically isolated from any would be attackers, and the only one with a blue water navy with a global reach, the United States' sphere of power projection is more vast than any nation before.

Republic is an extremely vague, nearly meaningless term, much like empire. So yes, one can be the other and we are both.

I'm assuming you are restricting empire to mean "territorial empire" which is only one kind. The US would be a "hegemonic empire". The US as the global hegemon is by definition a hegemonic empire. It's not a value judgement. It's not meant as a criticism. You attribute a negative connotation to the word that I am not. I simply mean it as a description of the subject at hand.

As Frank Herbert said, "the mistakes of leaders are amplified by the number of their followers." I would append his wisdom to include the obvious, but omitted opposite. Leaders successes are also amplified by the number of their followers. This is the double edged sword of empire and society in general.

@RealityCheck. . . .perhaps you and others are not aware, but there are several different types of "Capitalists". I'm a Capitalist and I'm almost sure you are also. I worked for 32 years at my job and EARNED my salary. I was not a loafer or backslider.........

I was disparaging 'extremes' (BOTH capitalists and communists).

I too worked hard, but also contributed to as FAIR an Australian society as possible in an imperfect world, in a moderate-centre Australian society/govt. It works better than most other 'extreme' ideologies/systems.

If you live in a country that takes responsibility for promoting 'fair play' and not 'dog eat dog' policies, then you live in a 'moderate-centre' capitalist-socialist country.

The GFC has been responsible for the loss of hardworking 'ordinary citizens' SAVINGS/HOMES. It is the 'extreme' capitalist/conservative profit-at-all-costs types for bringing misery and havoc because their 'markets/greed' was 'unfettered capitalism' at work.

There is only one way to deal with the worlds problems, including the possibility of an AGW, and that's a resourced based economy without politics, leaders, police, laws and countries. With the level of technology we have today, we could improve all aspects of our lives, and remove all mindless labor.Venus Project

With the level of technology we have today, we could improve all aspects of our lives, and remove all mindless labor

We have not enough of resources to give all people on the world the living standard and job, they expect. As you can see with the discussion with above average qualified people here, even the acceptation of cold fusion is surprisingly tough job.

"And, as the only standing superpower, one geographically isolated from any would be attackers, and the only one with a blue water navy with a global reach, the United States' sphere of power projection is more vast than any nation before." - Deepsand

And yet it has found itself incapable of effecting meaningful change in Afghanistan or Iraq, Cuba or any of the nations in South America.

What America's military dollars has purchased however is fiscal bankruptcy, and enemies all over the world as that military has been used to try and extend U.S. economic and political power.

It has all been a colossal, and obviously pointless waste, and itself another reason America is undeserving of respect.

"We have not enough of resources to give all people on the world the living standard and job, they expect." - Callippo

I disagree. Quality of life need not be purchased through the production of vast quantities of waste. Neither is it purchased through the hoarding of material goods. Quality if life comes from convenience and liberty, once the essentials of life are attained.

"The original progressives of the early 20th century, just like todays seemingly incoherent liberals, were populist and technocratic they argued both for direct democracy and for expert rule. Even as they called for enlarging the scope of the federal government and putting a class of educated specialists in charge of it, they also called for radical democratic reforms of our constitutional system. In the 1912 election, the Progressive-party platform proposed not only the direct election of senators but also the enactment of federal laws by public initiative, and even advocated allowing the public to overturn some court decisions by referendum.""Thus expert omniscience could not be trusted to check the excesses of popular passion, and public omniscience could not be trusted to check the excesses of expert arrogance. In the view of the framers, there is no omniscience; there is only imperfect humanity. "http://www.nation...vatism-y

"The original progressives of the early 20th century, just like todays seemingly incoherent liberals, were populist and technocratic they argued both for direct democracy and for expert rule." - RyggTard

Which is working very well for China and the other pacific rim nations.

"the humble assumption of permanent human imperfections and the humble desire for forms that might prevent large mistakes are at the core of the greatest achievements of the modern age: of constitutional democracy, of the free market, of the scientific method. Yet the most ardent champions of liberalism in our politics have too often failed to see the power of such humility, instead articulating a liberalism rooted in utopian ambitions or their mirror image naïve resentments all dressed up as a theory of justice. "http://www.nation...vin?pg=3

"The (Republican) aide (Karl Rove) said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that realityjudiciously, as you willwe'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actorsand you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

"We welcome all refugees to our country. Furthermore, immigration must not be restricted for reasons of race, religion, political creed, age, or sexual preference. We therefore call for the elimination of all restrictions on immigration, the abolition of the Immigration and Naturalization Service and the Border Patrol, and a declaration of full amnesty for all people who have entered the country illegally."

"Thus the Lefts simultaneous support for government by expert panel and for the unkempt carpers occupying Wall Street is not a contradiction it is a coherent error. And the Rights response should be coherent too. It should be, as for the most part it has been, an unabashed defense of our constitutional system, gridlock and all. "http://www.nation...vin?pg=4The 'progressives' posting here are described quite well by this article.AGW fits into the 'progressive' faith quite well. A technical elite controls the information and advocates for govt 'solutions' by fiat. Hope:"A daring idea to fix the economy: try doing less"http://www.telegr...ess.html

"One of the most persistent criticisms of the EU is its lack of democratic legitimacy. Its basic institutions are bureaucratic and opaque, with decisions either made by unelected European Commission bureaucrats or negotiated by EU member governments. These outcomes typically are binding on EU members, with no opportunity for independent judgment or meaningful dissent in national legislatures. The only popularly elected EU body, the European Parliament, has minimal power and is widely regarded as inconsequential.""If democracy can be supplanted easily when big issues are at stake and actual voters are allowed to select governments only for unimportant questions, the vitality and longevity of democracy itself are at issue. "http://www.washin...deficit/The EU is the technocrat's wet dream. See how well it is working.

Now that you mention it they did do a lot of the enslaving. Indeed the last nation that had legal chattel slavery is Islamic.

We can't be held responsible!

500,000 Americans died to end slavery in the US. We took responsibility even if we didn't want to.

bluehighJohn Lennon was an idiot on many things. He was the sort of idiot that said things like 'what if they gave a war and nobody came?'. Which has got to be one the stupidest phrases anyone came up with outside of religion.

If you are so into slavery, then you may want to take a trip to Saudi Arabia or the African countries where slavery in America began when the Arabs kidnapped black Africans and sold them to the white slave traders to bring to America to work on the plantations. Slavery is still happening in Saudi Arabia. You will be happy there.

Right lol. What is your point in even bringing this up?

Hey everyone slavery *WAS NOT* the fault of any white people in the United States. They were just offered too good of a deal by those dastardly Arabs! We can't be held responsible!

Your mind is so diseased. Just give up you pathetic old man.[/qFrankHerbert (the Head Troll), as usual, you lack skills in reading comprehension. I NEVER said that white men were not at fault for buying black slaves from the Arabs in Africa and using their slave labor on plantations in America.

Maybe you should GO BACK AND READ AGAIN WHAT I SAID, since you have an inability to understand the typed English that we speak here. Or go back to school to learn remedial reading comprehension skills. This is NOT the first time you have misquoted me. . .and I suspect it won't be the last.

If you're not Liberal when you're young, you have no heart. If you're not Conservative when you're mature, you have no brains.

Or maybe you just simply chose not to become an utter asshole.Grow up and rejoin the humn race.[..]Noumenen, do you want to be an asshole too?

Ethelred

!?

The point was that young people tend to default to liberal democrat, because it's the safest and most emotionally reasonable position. Young people by definition have limited experience in life and so a limited frame of reference in which to draw them out of naiveté, and therefore away from idealism.

Once one gains more experience in life, they establish more pragmatic frame of reference in which to judge the world, and become relatively more conservative.

As I've said before (in so many words), Liberals/Socialists/Communists will find that the Socialist ideology they wish to impose on the American people will place the greater majority of them at a huge disadvantage, UNLESS they are employed by a fully Socialist government in the United States, IF that ever comes to pass, 1) Liberals will STILL be downtrodden, oppressed and POOR, along with the REST of the population who is not a part of government. 2) The 1% wealthy will no longer have their wealth unless they move to a different country. 3) Those who decide to remain in the U.S. will have their wealth forcibly removed from them and then jailed for "crimes against humanity". 4) Persons "of interest" and dissidents will be put on trial in a kangaroo court and then taken out and shot.

cont @ Ethelred,... most people that know little of politics, rely on caricatures, and so default to liberal, because "liberals care about The People" and being of like mind is acceptable without further understanding,... while "mean old republicans" are for "big business and the rich" and carry the further burden of understanding to be accepted.

This is why the vast majority of hollywood actors, music artists, criminals, welfare recipients, union members, rioters, and other smelly groups, tend to be liberal.

If you attempt to link conservative to "mean old man before his time", remember that the majority of conservatives (not me) are religious and give donations to their church who in turn help the needy.

5) The media will be controlled by government officials and only news FAVORABLE to the gov't will be allowed.6) A military conscription will be forced on all young people from each state; young men and women sent overseas to put down rebellions and dissidents in other Socialist/Communist countries, while conscripted soldiers from those other countries will be sent to the U.S. to put down domestic rebellions and ordered to shoot on sight.7) Nobody will be allowed to own anything. Everything belongs to the government. Anyone caught stealing will have his/her fingers or hand surgically removed.

8) Old and infirmed people will be euthanized if they cannot work. Welfare queens will be euthanized because they WON'T work. Retarded people (like FrankHerbert and Vendicar) will be strangled to death.9) Salaries will be determined by government Czars and only the minimum wage will be allowed to the 99% of the population. The rest of the tax money will go for government infrastructure including beautiful towers and office buildings dedicated to government officials and their bureaucrats. Road gangs comprised of convicted dissidents will be used to rebuild bridges, airports and tunnels. Only gov't officials allowed to fly.10) The President (possibly Obama) will have a lifetime post as a world leader with a large yearly salary of 1 billion dollars for his personal use.

11) Curfews of 10 PM will be maintained for all people outside of government officials and utility workers. Vodka and whiskey will be sold in convenience stores.12) School teachers and professors will continue the teaching of condoms on a cucumber for grades 2 through 12, and the glories of anal sex. The 3 R's are irrelevant. Children won't be needing them.13) Smoking and illegal drugs is punishable by death in a smoke-filled chamber. The 99% must go to work. Production is key.14) Differences of opinion in the media and public discourse will not be tolerated. Only that which is favorable to the government is allowed. . .for young and old.

You can tell a paid for rethuglican astro-turfer when the first line of his post begins with Socialist. Funny part is, they are the american traitors, the destroy the american idea at all cost type people. Morally corrupt.

The point was that young people tend to default to liberal democrat, because it's the safest and most emotionally reasonable position. Young people by definition have limited experience in life and so a limited frame of reference in which to draw them out of naiveté, and therefore away from idealism.

Once one gains more experience in life, they establish more pragmatic frame of reference in which to judge the world, and become relatively more conservative.

Georges_Clemenceau: A young man who isn't a socialist hasn't got a heart; an old man who is a socialist hasn't got a head.

Young people are intellectually bright, but they lack the life experience. Therefore they tend to adhere on mainstream theories and schematic thinking more, than many elderly physicists, who are willing to study the boundary phenomena like the cold fusion or water clusters.

If you are so into slavery, then you may want to take a trip to Saudi Arabia or the African countries where slavery in America began when the Arabs kidnapped black Africans and sold them to the white slave traders to bring to America to work on the plantations. Slavery is still happening in Saudi Arabia. You will be happy there.

FrankHerbert(theHeadTroll) says:Right lol. What is your point in even bringing this up?

Hey everyone slavery *WAS NOT* the fault of any white people in the United States. They were just offered too good of a deal by those dastardly Arabs! We can't be held responsible!

Your mind is so diseased. Just give up you pathetic old man.

FrankHerbert (the Head Troll), as usual, you lack skills in reading comprehension. I NEVER said that white men were not at fault for buying black slaves from the Arabs in Africa and using their slave labor on plantations in America.

The point was that young people tend to default to liberal democrat, because it's the safest and most emotionally reasonable position. Young people by definition have limited experience in life and so a limited frame of reference in which to draw them out of naiveté, and therefore away from idealism.

But let us not forget it's the young people who come up with the most essential and creative concepts. For instance, it was a young Einstein who developed Relativity, and it was young entrepreneurs like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates who started the tech industry.

Where would we be without that young naiveté - that willingness to venture out and try the new? We'd still be living in trees is where we'd be.

Once one gains more experience in life, they establish more pragmatic frame of reference in which to judge the world, and become relatively more conservative.

That is, they default to the known and safe - becoming afraid to take chances and get messy. It's quite sad, really.

The young people can often behave more conservatively, than the old liberals, when the subject requires the violation of established theories instead of facts. And vice-versa: the elderly people aren't always such a conservative, because they don't care about future of their professional carriers so much.

For example, string theorists are young bright physicists, who bravely promoted new theory, but they're behaving rather like conservatives, guarding the purity of classical theories, on which the string theory is based. On the other hand, the elderly physicists are more willing to think in wider context, so they appear as a liberal by now in many aspects. We can even talk about certain inversion of roles of social generations.

But let us not forget it's the young people who come up with the most essential and creative concepts.

I do agree, but it's relevant just at certain stage of evolution. The elderly people brings the more fundamental findings more often (cold fusion, room temperature superconductivity, antigravity). Why is it so? We can compare the evolution of society to the observation of the water surface. With increasing distance from observer the spreading of surface ripples becomes more and more deterministic. In this stage the young people, who are able to develop reductionistic formal theories have an advantage. But when the distance increases even more, than the spreading of surface ripples becomes affected with underwater again. The elderly people with holistic insights and wider life experience will get an advantage instead under such a situation, because they're able to deduce the new insights from fast growing pile of formal theories in nonformal way. These stages repeat in circles.

For example, in this recent study the age of Nobelists increases gradually, so that the Einstein's memo that "a person who has not made his great contribution to science before the age of thirty will never do so" is not valid anymore.

It's not actually valid at the case, when the new finding requires to combine large amount facts or life experience. In deductive approach the young people have still their advantage in generally higher intelligence.

It's true, the anthropogenic model of global warming is very schematic and it leads to the socialization of economy. But it's true too, if we wouldn't switch the usage of fossil fuels soon before their price will escalate, we are facing the geopolitical instability, financial crisis or even global nuclear war. The conservative politics cannot account into these risks in the same way, like the liberal politics cannot account into threat of individual freedom and free market.

Your stance in this controversy should remain UNBIASED, or we cannot make any progress in its solution.

Such mentalities lead to unchecked nationalism which eventually progresses to fascism, the extreme end of the conservative spectrum. - FrankHubris

You're making a politically obsolete association.

Conservatism and liberalism have contextual and relative meanings, wrt era's and countries.

Modern conservatives are counter to big government control, and are for the American constitution which advocates freedom, and are counter to suppression of ideas. Therefore your association is irrational.

Sounds like a great Utopian future for Liberals/Socialists and Conservatives alike. Eh? Oh, I forgot one.15) Each civilian domicile will be comprised of 2 to 3 or more families in order to preserve the government's coal, gas and oil supplies as it regards home heating and use of electricity. Only a small consumption of kwH will be allowed each month for all families within each individua dwelling. No pets allowed that require drinking water. Pet rocks will be distributed to the children.16) Health care will only be given through Nurse Practitioners, no doctor's visits. Necessary operations will be only deemed necessary by the Nurse and the medical office workers and an independent government bureaucrat somewhere in Washington, DC.

I'm afraid, we would face the social storms and war conflicts a way sooner. There is wide distribution of wealth between people and at the moment, when the richest part of population will start to suffer with some governmental restrictions, the poorest social layer will suffer with starvation already.

At any case, it's completely unnecessary to judge it, because we all are swimming in the ocean of free energy in form of cold fusion. We should focus to real problems instead of solving these theoretical ones: how to force our governments into wider research and exploitation of cold fusion. If we solve this, then the other problems will disappear automatically, at least for now.

It's as simple as it is. The origin of financial crisis is the incoming oil peak, nothing else.

The conservative politics cannot account into these risks in the same way, like the liberal politics cannot account into threat of individual freedom and free market.

Your stance in this controversy should remain UNBIASED, or we cannot make any progress in its solution.

I agree. The UN propose only redistribution of wealth and governmental control of energy use. Since a) this is a duck-tape short term solution, and b) is counter to capitalistic economies, it has no chance of being a resounding long term solution, especially as world population continues to grow.

An alternative energy source must be able to compete with oil/coal, in an economically nondestructive way. I would be for a 1% sales tax for a Manhattan'esque project with concentrated effort in developing alternatives (e.g. safe traditional nuclear or fusion) that can compete with oil/coal, ...so that it's in the best interest of the masses to use the alternatives.

We have several options to consider now. One is the sealed nuclear reactor from Toshiba and there is a US design the city of Galena, AK is/was investigating to power their city.These designs would work well on the basements of skyscrapers and other large buildings.If you trust the nuclear Navy, let them manage these projects and train the operators.

An alternative energy source must be able to compete with oil/coal, in an economically nondestructive way.

The cold fusion can already do it. But the COP achieved by now (~ 6) is still too low. We do need a further organized research, I mean a serious peer-reviewed research. We are losing time and incredible amount of money with delaying it every day.

One is the sealed nuclear reactor from Toshiba

Yeah and all these thorium molten salt reactors... :-\

I know about all these technologies - but the cold fusion could kick ass all of them without problem. It's completely safe, produces no radioactivity and nuclear waste and it can be scaled down to the microscopic sizes. Every calculator could have its own cold fusion source of energy. No need of wires, batteries and similar energy mediators.

The government cannot be trusted to manage a research program. They are only good at funding research. . . .not to oversee it's progress. The government bureaucrats are mostly full of their self-importance, ineptitude and arrogance. . . .take Kathleen Sibelius, Janet Napolitano of HHS and Eric Holden, attorney general. They have no business being in positions of power, making stupid decisions that affect lives and fortunes.

Because there is no way to get the private sector to handle something that complex, and supply the funds necessary (The army handled the original Manhattan project),... and one of the core purposes of government is to protect it's citizens AND it's economy.

My first choice would be to convince people that, as oil/coal begin to become more and more scarce, it's cost will increase more and more.

This will then allow alternative markets to complete, in a gradual and natural way.

In others words, through normal technological advances expected in any case in the modern age, the issue will resolve itself. This presumes that the cataclysmic AGW predications are hysterical hype.

The AGW crowd will fight tooth and nail against any kind of atomic power through their environmentalist kook divisions. Even if cold fusion is safe and is possible, there will always be the Luddite mindset to prevent progress, especially for something that hasn't been proven yet to work. But, you'll never know until it's been researched. So, have at it, I say.

My first choice would be to convince people that, as oil/coal begin to become more and more scarce, it's cost will increase more and more. This will then allow alternative markets to complete, in a gradual and natural way.

It already happened.

The problem is, the oil price doesn't follow the free market rules, being kept artificially low and it doesn't reflect the state of oil reserves. In particular, the companies mining the oil tend to lie about actual state of oil reserves, as it enables them to increase mining quotas. The increased cost of mining doesn't reflect the final price smoothly, because the increasing portion of oil is simply burned for vapor generation in underground and its consumed at place during drilling and pumping.

The free market economy cannot account to the price of coil, until the coil is mined as easily, as before one hundred years. When the fossil fuels deposit will get depleted, then their price will jump suddenly, but it will be too late.

Briefly speaking, until the price of fossil fuels respects just the price of mining and not the price of fossil fuel replacement (i.e. the total cost of fossil fuel ownership), then the free market economy can never serve as a reliable feedback of the fossil fuel consumption. After all, this is why the price of oil fluctuates wildly and why the Arabians are so upset with low oil prices.

I've nothing against free market economy, but we shouldn't overestimate its real possibilities. There are many less or more hidden components of real oil price, for example the price of oil wars which is doing the oil pretty expensive resource.

"The (Republican) aide (Karl Rove) said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that realityjudiciously, as you willwe'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actorsand you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

In the meantime, while cold fusion can be researched and funding sources are found from whomever is willing to invest in it. . . .we have vast amounts of coal, oil and gas right here in U.S. territory, which is not being utilized because of governmental regulation.How about THERMAL energy, in the meantime. All that heat underground going to waste and there for the taking and. . . .Obama wants windmills and solar panels. There are key places in the U.S. and other countries where the heat comes up so hot, like in Iceland. Their electric turbines create electricity from that heat. Why can't WE do that too? Just find a magma source and tap into it.

5) The media will be controlled by government officials and only news FAVORABLE to the gov't will be allowed.

Hi Pirouette. Your 'ideology' runa away with objectivity. Heard of the INTERNET etc? Censorship is futile, and alerts/angers the world. The "Arab Spring" is made possible by the internet despite tyrants/despots trying to 'censor' it.

The government cannot be trusted to manage a research program. They are only good at funding research. . . .not to oversee it's progress.

Another example of ideological 'zeal' running away with you. An Australian govt body called CSIRO used to lead the world (per capita/expenditure) in many fields of research/development for the common good. CSIRO is now way less effective because 'conservative ideology' has made CSIRO merely an 'arm' of the 'market' concentrating on 'profitable' research instead of 'common good' research. Go figure!

Cold war 'leftover' ideologies are behind much of the present troubles/stances. These will pass.

.we have vast amounts of coal, oil and gas right here in U.S. territory

The USA will need to save these reserves for future use anyway, because the cold fusion cannot replace the fossil carbon consumption in plastic industry. And these deposits aren't so accessible as the Texas oil fields of the 19th century, when oil simply soaked the soil everywhere. The fossil fuel lobby cheats the publics regarding the actual price and availability of fossil fuel resources under hope, it will increase the mining quotas and it will prolong the era of its power. Because the fossil fuel lobby takes no responsibility for the increasing price of social instability and cost of oil wars, which are necessary to maintain the fossil fuel industry.

If the current financial crisis is the result of oil price fluctuation, then the cost of financial crisis should be taken into account of fossil fuel lobby. It's all about the hidden cost of ownership of fossil fuel economy.

The above may sound like very conspiratorial theory, but its origin is actually very spontaneous and natural in the same way, like the instinctively dismissive stance of mainstream physics community regarding the cold fusion research. Nobody is actually required to organize it, because the resulting stance is simply the sum of the dismissive stances of all individuals involved here.

Because there is no way to get the private sector to handle something that complex,

The private sector is managing very complex projects now. Wal Mart manages to bring products from all over the world to your neighborhood store at a price you are willing to pay.But, again, there is no need for your govt project. The technology exists, the research has been done. Get the govt out of the way.

How about THERMAL energy, in the meantime. All that heat underground going to waste and there for the taking and

The effectiveness of geothermal energy is not so good as it appears, when all consequences are taken into account. The life time of geothermal energy drill is about ten-twelve years (until you're not living at the tectonic zone, like the Icelanders do). After then the drill is cooled and the whole bore must be redrilled somewhere else. The water extracts the salts from underground, so it's corrosive for heat exchangers, it threatens the underwater sources of drinking water and it may even result into geotectonic instability of the whole area. And it's indeed diluted source of energy, which can be used just for heating of houses and communal purposes.

Oh wait. . . .i forgot that thermal energy would entail digging deep into the mantle. Environmentalist kooks would scream like girls if you move one shovelful of the Earth's surface using a payloader.

Come, come, now you are sounding a little 'hysterical' yourself, eh? There is sustainable and unsustainable progress; There is safe and unsafe activities regarding the environment we all need to be healthy. Tapping the deep hot rocks in 'safe' locations would be WELCOMED by 'alternative energy' proponets, don't you think? It would be nice for all concerned if we ALL stop letting hyperbole and ideology colour our objectivity, eh? Cheers..

The above may sound like very conspiratorial theory, but its origin is actually very spontaneous and natural in the same way, like the instinctively dismissive stance of mainstream physics community regarding the cold fusion research. Nobody is actually required to organize it, because the resulting stance is simply the sum of the dismissive stances of all individuals involved here.

Callippo. . . .I agree that we are being ripped off by the oil cartels, as well as oil refineries, oil commodities, gas stations, etc. But at each level of the oil game, EVERYONE gets their cut of the spoils. That's the natural order of things. To counter these measures nowadays, MOST Americans drive a lot less than when oil was cheap, and they push that old thermometer gauge to a lower degree to heat their home. I do all these things, and then some. I don't even heat my home anymore except with free firewood. Everyone needs to find a way to cut back on their fossil fuel consumption. It can be done.

But at each level of the oil game, EVERYONE gets their cut of the spoils. That's the natural order of things

Of course - as I pointed out above, it's not result of fossil lobby conspiracy or something similar. And I'm not judging the fossil fuel lobby or mainstream science here at all. I'm just explaining the objective mechanisms, which lead into present situation under hope, the people will learn from it for future. We need to better understand how the human civilization is working before we will attempt to influent its evolution at the global level in organized way. Or we will face just a new kind of problems instead.

Everyone needs to find a way to cut back on their fossil fuel consumption. It can be done.

Why not but in general I don't believe in the voluntary ability of people to control their consumption, until some external incentives or restrictions aren't in the game. Most of people will simply follow the path of least resistance here. I'm not idealist here not least a bit. And it opens the door for various ideological manipulations and censorship.

@Realitycheck. . . . .LOL. . .my #5 and all the rest # are merely a hypothesis of what's to come if the Liberal Socialists take over the U.S. government fully and the results would be ugly for Socialist and Conservatives alike. THAT is not MY ideology. I was just making the points that many Socialists overlook in their zeal to get rid of Capitalism and Conservatism in my country.

Also, please don't confuse the government of Australia with the gov't in the U.S.Our present government is a whole other chicken. The majority of your country are transplanted Englishmen, Irish and Scots, with a smattering of indigenous people. While we in the U.S. are a "melting pot" with differing ideals, hopes, dreams, cultures, traditions, varying degrees of political stances, talents, intelligence, education, ambitions, etc. I could go on and on as to our differences, but I won't. No reflection on you and your country, just please don't apply YOUR standards to us.

But at each level of the oil game, EVERYONE gets their cut of the spoils. That's the natural order of things

Of course - as I pointed out above, it's not result of fossil lobby conspiracy or something similar. And I'm not judging the fossil fuel lobby or mainstream science here at all. I'm just explaining the objective mechanisms, which lead into present situation under hope, the people will learn from it for future. We need to better understand how the human civilization is working before we will attempt to influent its evolution at the global level in organized way. Or we will face just a new kind of problems instead.

Callippo, it would be an understatement for me to say that there are too many variables in this world regarding the human condition and the human mindset. With all the countries pulling in all different directions and expecting all of their people to toe the line, it's similar to 20 mules tied to each other and each one wanting to go his own way.

It has no meaning to follow the strategies, the result of which no one can be sure with in this moment. Bu the positive contribution of cold fusion for human civilization is clear for everyone here, I hope. If not, what else could be, after all? I do believe, we can start with its implementation like with least common denominator and after then we can just follow the consequences. The implementation of cold fusion will have far-reaching consequences, not only in the question of the optimal strategy against global warming.

..convince people that, as oil/coal begin to become more scarce, it's cost will increase. This will then allow alternative markets to complete, in a gradual and natural way.

The problem is, the oil price doesn't follow the free market rules, being kept artificially low and it doesn't reflect the state of oil reserves. [..]

The free market economy cannot account to the price of coil. When the fossil fuels deposit will get depleted, then their price will jump suddenly, but it will be too late.

In the long term it does follow the free market, as oil is a commodity and is traded as such. The price of oil is driven by the market (i.e. futures speculators), which naturally is driven by many things, including projected supply and demand, reserves, production, etc.

I reject the notion that military presence in foreign lands to protect a countries interests, should be accounted as energy cost. It should be and is accounted as defense.

No they aren't. This is evidenced by the eagerness to disqualify Bush as a Conservative. The line goes "if Bush expanded government he wasn't really a conservative." No true scotsman and all that. It's not that Bush isn't a conservative because he expanded government; it's that Bush is a conservative and being a conservative has nothing to do with the size of government.

Conservatives aren't against "big" government, they are against things they don't want the government to do. They just get sucked into semantics and word games and by the time they end up expressing their opinion they themselves have no idea what they are even talking about. For example "keep your government hands off my Medicare."

With regards to me misquoting Pirouette, he's angry that I quoted him as saying there are "transparent" rather than "SEMI-transparent" animals on Mars. Yes, that was the sticking point in question. lol

Civilizations and ideologies come and go. . . .only the Earth remains. Apart from my Conservative views and my wish for less plundering of our home planet, I am not overly concerned with how other people go about their business of living. . .and dying. Decisions are made every day by people I will never know or meet, that MIGHT affect me and you and everyone else. . . . .or not. The only things we can hope for. . . .is Peace and love and 3 square meals a day.Everything else. . . .material things are irrelevant. We're born naked and we go out of here with the clothes on our back. No money, jewelry, no car, no oil, coal or gas to worry about.I prefer the simple life, don't you?

I would be for a 1% sales tax for a Manhattan'esque project with concentrated effort in developing alternatives (e.g. safe traditional nuclear or fusion) that can compete with oil/coal, ...so that it's in the best interest of the masses to use the alternatives.

Oh you support "legal theft" now? Watch out, you are now on Marjon's list of physorg socialists (i.e. everyone but himself).

It has no meaning to follow the strategies, the result of which no one can be sure with in this moment. Bu the positive contribution of cold fusion for human civilization is clear for everyone here, I hope. If not, what else could be, after all? I do believe, we can start with its implementation like with least common denominator and after then we can just follow the consequences. The implementation of cold fusion will have far-reaching consequences, not only in the question of the optimal strategy against global warming.

Callippo. . .I sincerely hope you're right about cold fusion. If it turns out not to be a feasible source of energy, then we're screwed.

No they aren't. This is evidenced by the eagerness to disqualify Bush as a Conservative. [...] It's not that Bush isn't a conservative because he expanded government; it's that Bush is a conservative and being a conservative has nothing to do with the size of government.

"Fiscal conservatism is a political term used to describe a fiscal policy that advocates avoiding deficit spending. Fiscal conservatives often consider reduction of overall government spending and national debt as well as ensuring balanced budget of paramount importance. Free trade, deregulation of the economy, lower taxes, and other conservative policies are also often but not necessarily affiliated with fiscal conservatism." - Wiki

This of course results in a limited government. The "eagerness to disqualify Bush as a Conservative", comes from conservatives, so therefore they are the ones defining it.

The eagerness to elect a "compassionate conservative" also came from those same people you are claiming are against big government. They aren't; they are just against government programs that they perceive as helping people they don't believe should receive help.

"I reject the notion that military presence in foreign lands to protect a countries interests, should be accounted as energy cost. It should be and is accounted as defense.

Military presence in another country may be useful, but only if invited into the other country. An open invitation is less likely to rankle the population's nerves, bot the foreign and domestic nerves. However, there will always be antiwar protesters and disagreements on how and why our own soldiers should be killed in the protection of someone else's country, unless, like World War 2, it was a necessary but glorious evil. The Cindy Sheehans of the U.S. who made President Bush's life a living hell had her dead son as an excuse. But there are others who protest for many other reasons of their own, both valid and also stupid. Personally, I wouldn't want OUR military to fight for Israel. I don't like them to be in Afghanistand either, but who am I to buck the system?

LOL. . . .why is FrankHerbfart still here? I thought he would have died already by now. And he is STILL misquoting me and others. FrankHerbfart also thinks that soldiers are not supposed to fight wars and, perhaps, get killed in those wars. Maybe he would prefer them to knit or crochet doilies for his chair?

The eagerness to elect a "compassionate conservative" also came from those same people you are claiming are against big government. They aren't; they are just against government programs that they perceive as helping people they don't believe should receive help.

So, what are you implying here exactly Frank?

I gave you the definition of a conservative wrt government spending. This naturally resolves to a number of things,.. like reliance on the private sector, personal accountability, limited welfare state, in short limited government etc

People like Obama enjoy linking conservative to the Rich, big business, and wall street corruption,... but never mention, the several orders of magnitude larger, corruption and fraud that exists in welfare and disability government programs, by the lower class that pay zero tax.

How many Iraqi's lives did Bush make a living hell? How many American serviceman's families? You have NO perspective.

Congress voted to go to war in Iraq. Would you like me to provide quotes of the impeding threat of Saddam, by Wesley Clark, Howard Dean, Bill Clinton, Madeleine Albright, Sandy Berger, Nancy Pelosi, Rockefeller, Bob Graham, Hillary Clinton, and on and on.

It was a sound military strategy. Had Saddam been in power now with UN sanctions expired, there would be a race to develop nuclear weapons in the middle east, between Iraq and Iran in particular, but not limited.

What exactly did I misquote Pirouette? Is that your go to disinformation tactic?

FrankHerbfart also thinks that soldiers are not supposed to fight wars and, perhaps, get killed in those wars. Maybe he would prefer them to knit or crochet doilies for his chair?

What's wrong with knitting or crocheting? Are you sexist?

So, what are you implying here exactly Frank?

1. Conservative voters are more gullible than the average.2. Conservative leaders are less honest than the average.

How many Iraqi's lives did Bush make a living hell? How many American serviceman's families? You have NO perspective.

Congress voted to go to war in Iraq. Would you like me to provide quotes of the impeding threat of Saddam, by Wesley Clark, Howard Dean, Bill Clinton, Madeleine Albright, Sandy Berger, Nancy Pelosi, Rockefeller, Bob Graham, Hillary Clinton, and on and on.

What exactly did I misquote Pirouette? Is that your go to disinformation tactic?

FrankHerbfart also thinks that soldiers are not supposed to fight wars and, perhaps, get killed in those wars. Maybe he would prefer them to knit or crochet doilies for his chair?

What's wrong with knitting or crocheting? Are you sexist?

So, what are you implying here exactly Frank?

1. Conservative voters are more gullible than the average.2. Conservative leaders are less honest than the average.

How many Iraqi's lives did Bush make a living hell? How many American serviceman's families? You have NO perspective.

Congress voted to go to war in Iraq. Would you like me to provide quotes of the impeding threat of Saddam, by Wesley Clark, Howard Dean, Bill Clinton, Madeleine Albright, Sandy Berger, Nancy Pelosi, Rockefeller, Bob Graham, Hillary Clinton, and on and on.

That's true. . . .there is massive corruption in the welfare state programs. While giving taxpayers' money to welfare queens and kings, those same welfare queens and kings go out and buy fancy new cars, color plasma flat screen TVs, expensive clothes and booze, and keep a girlie or 2 on the side. Oh yes, and they ALL vote for Democrats because dat Obama. . .he be taking care of me and mah chilluns. . .and I don haf to work fo' dat money. . .heheheheh.

"How many Iraqi's lives did Bush (and Wesley Clark, Howard Dean, Bill Clinton, Madeleine Albright, Sandy Berger, Nancy Pelosi, Rockefeller, Bob Graham, Hillary Clinton, and on and on [and what, every republican except Ron Paul?]) make a living hell? How many American serviceman's families? You have NO perspective."

1. Conservative voters are more gullible than the average.2. Conservative leaders are less honest than the average.

Meaningless generalizations. Democrat voters are inept in their dependance on gov, and democrat leaders are more dishonest as they tap into emotional class war-fare without ever solving poverty, sub-par education, or whatever other ills in society.

You didn't answer the question, so lets try again,...

they are just against government programs that they perceive as helping people they don't believe should receive help.

"How many Iraqi's lives did Bush (and Wesley Clark, Howard Dean, Bill Clinton, Madeleine Albright, Sandy Berger, Nancy Pelosi, Rockefeller, Bob Graham, Hillary Clinton, and on and on [and what, every republican except Ron Paul?]) make a living hell? How many American serviceman's families? You have NO perspective."

Happy?

The point was that you can't just blame Bush, .. the circumstances were such that war was inevitable. War is necessary at times in the real world, never in the idealistic world.

Another thing the far left failed at is to figure out how to arrange the world so that war is never required. Until you anti-war twits accomplish this miracle, it will be business as usual.

1. Conservative voters are more gullible than the average.2. Conservative leaders are less honest than the average.

Meaningless generalizations. Democrat voters are inept in their dependance on gov, and democrat leaders are more dishonest as they tap into emotional class war-fare without ever solving poverty, sub-par education, or whatever other ills in society.

Lol this right here is a perfect microcosm of just how little you get my motivation in carrying out these little exchanges with you.

So in response to my admittedly (and intentionally) "meaningless generalizations" you respond with... meaningless generalizations. Now either you are playing the same game I am (unlikely), or you are really ignorant of just how unable you are to see the forest for the trees.

You take particularly illogical and stubborn positions while accusing others of the same. It's this hypocrisy that draws me to you.

"He said that in 1992, aged 27, he had worked for the intelligence unit for 15 months after qualifying as a junior doctor. He would be taken to a top-security prison in Kadhimiya to treat victims who had been seriously injured through torture.

They looked like somebody who had a big accident, he said.

He claims the role was part of compulsory military service and he had "no choice" and would have been killed if he had spoken out. "http://www.telegr...tal.html

During the first Gulf War, thousands of Iraqi conscripts surrendered as soon as they could. They would be shot by their officers if they refused to fight.

"How many Iraqi's lives did Bush (and Wesley Clark, Howard Dean, Bill Clinton, Madeleine Albright, Sandy Berger, Nancy Pelosi, Rockefeller, Bob Graham, Hillary Clinton, and on and on [and what, every republican except Ron Paul?]) make a living hell? How many American serviceman's families? You have NO perspective."

Happy?

And how many KUWAITI lives did Saddam Hussein and the Iraqis make a living hell before GHWBush sent American soldiers to Kuwait, AT THE INVITATION OF THE KUWAITI government, eh Herbfart? And how many lives did Cindy Sheehan ruin IN HER OWN FAMILY while she was out there playing the nutjob to show GWBush how much she hated him. eh, FrankHerbfartface? And how is it that it was the DEMOCRATS who were all for giving GWBush the OK to invade Iraq and take out Saddam, eh? AND, how is it that here it is, 3 years already since OBAMA was elected and. . . . . .

Oh wait. . . .i forgot that thermal energy would entail digging deep into the mantle. Environmentalist kooks would scream like girls if you move one shovelful of the Earth's surface using a payloader.

RealityCheck said:

Come, come, now you are sounding a little 'hysterical' yourself, eh? There is sustainable and unsustainable progress; There is safe and unsafe activities regarding the environment we all need to be healthy. Tapping the deep hot rocks in 'safe' locations would be WELCOMED by 'alternative energy' proponets, don't you think? It would be nice for all concerned if we ALL stop letting hyperbole and ideology colour our objectivity, eh? Cheers..

Reality. . . .LOL. . . .apparently you haven't met many AMERICAN environmentalist kooks like I have. Many of them are downright dangerous in their obsession with protecting the land. You don't mess with the American nutjobs. They'll sit in a GreenPeace boat and almost get killed trying to stop a whalehunting ship.

Wow. Just wow. Look all of the GOP backers that have piled on this one. Everything reads like a blossom patrol of GOP staffers trying to astro-turf the environmental issues again. You can't event think for your self less you step out of the talking points.

FrankHerbfart also thinks that soldiers are not supposed to fight wars...

Frankherbfart says:

...eh Herbfart?

eh, FrankHerbfartface?

How old are you?

and he STILL has our soldiers in Iraq AND Afghanistan

Umm... Iraq is all but over and is OFFICIALLY over by the end of this year. Are you ignorant? Bush neglected Afghanistan for most of his presidency because of his little foray into Iraq for who knows whatever reason (I don't claim to know but it's definitely not anything noumenon claims ;-) ) Afghanistan is also starting to wind down after Bush's mess was mopped up.

@Noumenon

By that same logic, why should I believe that you made those generalizations intentionally?

Also we wouldn't have to worry about Afghanistan or 9/11 had the Republicans not impeached Clinton. During the height of the scandal Clinton attempted to take out bin Laden but was accused of wagging the dog and he lacked the political capital to overcome it. Thanks Newt!

The article says "that global warming is real and that increases in atmospheric CO2 will have MULTIPLE SERIOUS IMPACTS.". From the debate, the discussion is anything but on topic. It's a typical troll tactic. And as much as I appreciate R2's strained and contorted logic, occasionally things can be said that are just about as far from reality as to be made up crap.

"hey'll sit in a GreenPeace boat and almost get killed trying to stop a whalehunting ship."

That person, who will put his life on the line trying to stop whalehunting is a larger than life HERO in my book. First, there is no reason to hunt whales given they mostly consist of fats that could be made with "petroleum products". There is nothing in a whale should be eaten, given all of the turkey around here. And the whale is a real sentient being unlike the life forms found on Mars. The green peace whale watchers are there 1st, to stop ILLEGAL Whaling, but in international waters, "legal" whalers too!

The point being about the Greenpeace Whalehunter Interceptors is they are making a moral and ethical stance to deprive a vial commercial enterprise it's resources to starve it out of an unnecessary business.

If you really want to see injustice just look at what BP did to the Gulf of Mexico. Dead shit washing to shore everyday. Dead fishing and aquaculture all over. Even a dead tourist industry. That my oil/coal loving conservative is the Bush legacy, and the legacy of the CO2 lovers.

FrankHerbfart says:""Umm... Iraq is all but over and is OFFICIALLY over by the end of this year. Are you ignorant? Bush neglected Afghanistan for most of his presidency because of his little foray into Iraq for who knows whatever reason (I don't claim to know but it's definitely not anything noumenon claims ;-) ) Afghanistan is also starting to wind down after Bush's mess was mopped up.""

Iraq is NOT over until the last soldier stationed over there comes home. . .and I DON'T mean in a body bag. Bush should never have sent soldiers into Afghanistan. That was ONE of his biggest mistakes. The Russians were fighting in Afghanistan for YEARS and they had NEVER been able to conquer those people, and they gave up after so many Russian lives lost.

That's true. . . .there is massive corruption in the welfare state programs. While giving taxpayers' money to welfare queens and kings, those same welfare queens and kings go out and buy fancy new cars, color plasma flat screen TVs, expensive clothes and booze, and keep a girlie or 2 on the side. Oh yes, and they ALL vote for Democrats because dat Obama. . .he be taking care of me and mah chilluns. . .and I don haf to work fo' dat money. . .heheheheh."

HAHAHAHA, so Iraq wasn't a mistake but Afghanistan was? How do you manage to be so confused Pirouette? And the last soldier will leave Iraq this year, unless you count those stationed at the embassy, in which case I guess we are at "war" with nearly every nation on Earth.

Earth Firsters set fire to an auto dealer and routinely put spikes in trees hoping to injure lumberjacks.

The Stan countries are also not that far from Red China, which makes the Chinese uncomfortable to know that U.S. troops are that close to them.Do you think having US forces so close to Iran may have made its leaders a bit uncomfortable?

Ahmadinejad is a blowhard. He has plenty to worry about internal problems with the mullahs, who would like to be rid of him for his secular ways.

Many of them are downright dangerous

Earth Firsters set fire to an auto dealer and routinely put spikes in trees hoping to injure lumberjacks.

The Aussies don't know our environmentalist kooks and what they're capable of doing in their blind hatred of anything that comes near trees, whales, endangered owls, or lizards. I was pointing out that the tree huggers can get vicious and will possibly kill to save a little fish. Aussies don't know that.

The Aussies don't know our conservative kooks and what they're capable of doing in their blind hatred of anything that comes near their money. I was pointing out that the paleocons can get vicious and will possibly kill to save a buck. Aussies don't know that.

The point being about the Greenpeace Whalehunter Interceptors is they are making a moral and ethical stance to deprive a vial commercial enterprise it's resources to starve it out of an unnecessary business.

If you really want to see injustice just look at what BP did to the Gulf of Mexico. Dead shit washing to shore everyday. Dead fishing and aquaculture all over. Even a dead tourist industry. That my oil/coal loving conservative is the Bush legacy, and the legacy of the CO2 lovers.

BP means BRITISH PETROLEUM. They were licensed by the U.S. government to drill for oil in the Gulf of Mexico under GWBush, Obama, and possibly other Presidents. Since the BP oil spill, no American companies had been licensed to drill anywhere in the U.S. as far as I know. Maybe Alaska. GWBush was never a Conservative. A Conservative would never have sent soldiers to die in Afghanistan. The last Conservative President was Ronald Reagan and there has been no others since.

@twinners. . . . .nope, definitely NOT a bigot here. . .YOU are the bigot if you are putting a label on a way of speech when you don't even know WHO or WHERE that speech came from. You are making an assumption, and that makes YOU the bigot.

@twinners. . . . .nope, definitely NOT a bigot here. . .YOU are the bigot if you are putting a label on a way of speech when you don't even know WHO or WHERE that speech came from. You are making an assumption, and that makes YOU the bigot.

This is a classic conservative trick. Make a racist statement (usually mocking ebonics exactly how pirouette did) then when called on it, claim the other person is racist for acknowledging the existence of racism. Acknowledging the existence of racism does not make one racist. Sorry.

The last Conservative President was Ronald Reagan and there has been no others since.

"A sober review of Reagan's presidency doesn't yield the seamlessly conservative record being peddled today. Federal government expanded on his watch. The conservative desire to outlaw abortion was never seriously pursued. Reagan broke with the hardliners in his administration and compromised with the Soviets on arms control. His assault on entitlements never materialized; instead he saved Social Security in 1983. And he repeatedly ignored the fundamental conservative dogma that taxes should never be raised."

The last Conservative President was Ronald Reagan and there has been no others since.

"A sober review of Reagan's presidency doesn't yield the seamlessly conservative record being peddled today. Federal government expanded on his watch. The conservative desire to outlaw abortion was never seriously pursued. Reagan broke with the hardliners in his administration and compromised with the Soviets on arms control. His assault on entitlements never materialized; instead he saved Social Security in 1983. And he repeatedly ignored the fundamental conservative dogma that taxes should never be raised."

Pirouette

FrankHerbfart is all about racism wherever he thinks it is lurking. Obviously, he is totally ignorant that Americans of all races, colors and ethnicity are capable of that type of speech in the melting pot that is the United States. He thinks that it is only persons of one race that talks that way. He is too stupid to understand that what he calls ebonics is a Southern accent and originated in the southern states. Get some education, Frank and go back to school to learn how to comprehend easy sentences.

Frank, you are boring all the rest of us with you stupid and senseless yammering about Conservative this and Conservative that. If the Socialists/Communists get power over the United States and dump the U.S. Constitution, YOU will be one of the first they will line up against a wall and shoot you dead as a traitor. To which you will fall on your knees and pray for the Conservatives to get back in power before you are executed. You are a contemptible foul creature and not much of an American.

@Ethelred. . . .nice to see you.IMHO, young people are natural rebels against their parents' values, whether they're right or wrong. Kids just have to go opposite of what they've been taught. . . .I guess it's the "rite of passage" or something like that.

It's is amazing how desperate the arguments are coming from Purefruit. Social people and communal people are not going to be silenced by you bumbling blather. Actually I fear it the other way, conservatives wanting to put a camera in my Daughter's uterus. Or cameras in your bed room. Those are certainly not a liberal's idea. Conservatives spend like mad.Liberals actually put people to work.

It's strange that FrankHerbfart would use the "N" word to tell a lie about me. He's supposedly so antiracist and loves minorities. . . .but here he is using that word in this thread. Typical Liberal. Liberals I have met have used the "N" word, but felt it was their right because they were Liberals.

@Purefruit, I never said that R2 called you a racist either. But you paint a picture with broad N stroke. That direction is at your peril.

Howhot, I have no idea of what you're talking about. First of all, I have no desire to send any PMs (personal message) to FrankHerbfart since I and many others here at Physorg consider him a loathsome creature who has several different user names. Second, he has sent ME a PM within the past hour and I have no intention of viewing the contents and am looking for a way to delete the 2 messages.And who the hell is R2 anyway? I know Rygg2, but i don't know any R2.And what peril are you talking about? Is that a threat?

@purefruit you knew who purefruit was, so you must know R2. I kid R2. Listen, I just don't read messages posted by some Chicken Hawk conservative blow hard. So when did you become a racist fruit? You realize that my brother friends could bring down some my difficult mouthwash on your a**. I guess that is why your all shut up and everything.

Pretty soon the bots like PureFruit will be AI driven and we will see wars where Liberal Bot and the not-worthy of a reply Bot duel it out. So you want to shut off debate on the validity of research that says "that global warming is real and that increases in atmospheric CO2 will have multiple serious impacts."

Ugg I hate to jump to such conclusions, and I'm certainly not convinced, but it would make me feel SO MUCH BETTER if marjon was getting a paycheck. I mean seriously. If he's actually sincere about all that it would make me sad.

Obviously, no one is paying Pirouette for his insane, racist ramblings.

@FrankH "Obviously, no one is paying" Purefruit "for his insane, racist ramblings" Yes they are. It may not be a paycheck, but you can be sure purefruit is checking in with the MOTHERSHIP to see howto reply. He doesn't have that many talking points you see.

what the hell is a purefruit anyways? ohhhh. . . .I see. . .Howhot$hit don't know how to spell Pirouette, so he/she go the easy way and say pwufwut. Howhot$hit. . . .looks like you and FrankHerb$hit are in LOOOOOVE. You guys into anal sex? Someone here just said that you like some CO2 up yo azz first. Is that true?

Howhot$hit first says: "@purefruit you knew who purefruit was, so you must know R2. I kid R2. Listen, I just don't read messages posted by some Chicken Hawk conservative blow hard. So when did you become a racist fruit? You realize that my brother friends could bring down some my difficult mouthwash on your a**. I guess that is why your all shut up and everything."Then all I did was invite him/her and her bros and friends to come meet my fam from Sicily and allofasudden. . .he/she chickens out. What am I supposed to do?

@PureFruit; Your the thing that's all over family man. The Mothership is calling you purefruit. You haven't said anything about how conservatives make love. It must be the best thing since ... Hell you fill in the blank.

FrankHerb$hit. . . .you got Howhot$hit out in front of you? or you're out in front all bent over? hope y'all is having you a ball. . . .or 2.......ROFLOLNow we all KNOW that FrankHerb$hit been chasing after Nou and looking for Nou in every thread he goes into cuz he LIKES Nou and wants his body. . . .but Nou don't go for dat $hit. He gots his ol' lady all to hisself and is very happy wif her. . .heheheheheh

Mothership. . . . .? Ohhhhh I see it all now. . . .Howhot$hit is a follower of Minister Luis Farakan who been up dey in the Mothership and got to travel in dat spaceship in outer space wif dem aliens. DAT be why Howhot$hit always be talking about da Mothership. . .maybe he/she been up der TOO. . . .

whoa. . . .now FrankHerb$hit be looking up "gay love making" and brung us a link to see it. Ain't dat so nice of him. . . .awwwww. But I think I be passing on dat. Looks to be like Frank goes for Ted Haggard cuz he say you can't make it up. Dem lovebirds Frank and Howhot$hit must be loving it up good right now. . .they be so silent.

The facts will come out the way they are not the way we want them to. This study indicates that previous predictions are based on a model which isn't correct. This *is* science and the answer is to improve the model and try again.

The climate will change, it always has, it was foolish and naive to think it would stay the same.

@purefruit; Conservative chicken hawk wants to declare war. In you dreams turd-blossum buddy. Go back to the mothership, pickup some anti-global-warming talking points.

THE DEBATE IS OVER. AGW (that is anthropogenic global warming or simply human created global warming) is real, and will have a huge impact on everyone. In fact I see the global pull back in the markets caused by not banking concerns, but more like AGW concerns. If 15 year into the future Florida large tracks of Florida or Louisiana are underwater from melting glaciers where do people invest?

oh. . .now FrankHerbert$hit changed his name to Pirouline. . .one of his aliases. . .he don't like himself too muchHe likes my name Pirouette so much but he can't spell it. . .so he make his other name Pirouline.

Howhot$hit always be talking now about da Mothership. I think he/she been there already and expect ME to go too wif him. But my family coming over from Sicily and we gonna find FrankHerb$hit and his butt-buddy Howhot$hit addresses and gonna party wif dem until the cows come home. Yeah my brudder Angelo gots a friend, a computer geek who has friends everywhere who can find dem addresses and we go have us a party wif Frank and dat Howhot$hit fella.

Howhot$hit says:Another small earthquake has been reported in Oklahoma. It must be frankHerb$hit so forcefully farting it registers there. I guess it another Oklahoma earthquake that wasn't caused by fracking.

Naw.. it wasn't an earthquake, it was Howhot$hit doing a represent of his "Mothership" credentials.

The "eagerness to disqualify Bush as a Conservative", comes from conservatives,

Actually they are not conservatives, lower case, they are Radicals, upper case. This is the problem with Reagan Conservatives. They are NOT conservatives. They are radicals and frequently Religious wack jobs on top of it.

This thread has gone off the rails. I am somewhat hesitent to reply to it anymore as I could be banned accidently in the mass banning that is coming should Physorg show even the slightest sign of giving a damn anymore about their site.

by the lower class that pay zero tax.

I would say there is no such thing except the Supreme Court in a massively insane decision decided corporations are people and there are people that don't pay taxes. The rest of us do. Even that utter parasite Leona Helmsley paid some taxes before she was prosecuted for evading most of them.

You have made that false claim before and got called on it. Its time you stopped that particular fairy story.

I am poor.

I pay taxes.

You tell a lot of lies. The only question is whether it is intentional or delusional.

It was really bad politics and got Americans killed to root out nonexistent weaponry and to show that Bush had bigger Dick than his daddy. Dick Chaney.

And the long term strategy was inept. Mostly due to Bush. Now Obama has the mess he left behind to deal with. Even so the only sound strategy is to get out. If the religious wackjobs can't stop killing each other then at least we won't have to worry about them killing anyone else. I think the best policy is to say 'we are leaving, starting right now so you better figure out how to live peacefully as we are not going spill our blood trying to save you anymore'.

The point was that you can't just blame Bush

He is the one that pressured the CIA into making up nonsense to support the claim of Weapon Of Massive Paranoia.

There seems a definite lack of observational skills where Pirooutte is concerned. I know the non-sequitors, insane rants, and general lack of any signs of rational thought might be getting in the way here on this BUT it is pretty clear that pirouette is FEMALE. Barring the possibility of screwed up hormones of course.

... wow ... what an avalanche of (emotional) responses ... I just wonder if anyone actually read this article at all or just jumpet at the, quite misleading, title .... the same way as we all knew that: "smoking was health and that we were all lied to" isn't it. Please read the article, especially the last paragraph: ""Hence, drastic changes over land can be expected," he said. "However, our study implies that we still have time to prevent that from happening, if we make a concerted effort to change course soon." ... soon that is ... and not ignoring ...

ummm Ethelred. . .I suppose I should tell you this. .my g/f uses this computer occasionally and makes comments in the threads, but not very often. It's mostly me. She has talked with you and found you quite intelligent.

P1l. . . .he isn't worth getting steamed up about. . . .everyone knows Venditurd is also a Vendicreep and a VendorOFTurds. . .LOL. . .I made those up and I think he likes them.Relax pal. . .he'll get his sometime.

@Ethelred, yes, most everyone pays taxes,.. I meant to say the lower 40% pays no income taxes. It might be better if you didn't chop up my quotes into such little pieces. Despite what you say I think you know there was an element of truth wrt the young and tendency toward liberalism.

P.S. Entry into the Iraq war was not founded on "lies" about wmd's. That is a over simplification.

i'm ok now :) it really bothers me when people (scotty nudds)call others "tards" or stupid when they are just trying to voice their opinions. After reading that Nudds is a serial troll it really pissed me off. I'm cool now, I PM'd him a nice little message. I will say no more on the matter :)

when I am absolutely sure about something, I welcome anyone to try to point out the nonexistant flaws. when an idea is bulletproof, theres no need to fear counter arguments. "denialists" can legitimately voice their opinions without being called names. (Denialist, for example is a reference to holocaust DENIERS. its derrogatory. its not a fair rebuttal to start off with "denialist Tard!")

In the sense that a wolf eating a sheep is a sheep. Something a Randoid dreamt up? Hitler infiltrated the socialist party because leery Germans were not keep on bringing conservative Nazi nutballs into power. So he chose the backdoor. I guess that's too abstract for you to grasp, despite the fact that I've soundly defeated you on this point already.

Conservatives governments are losers

@ryggesogn2 'Liberal', aka socialist, govts are bankrupt.

Actually the strongest countries backing the Euro are the socialist countries, while the failing nations entertained free-market privatization and real-estate ponzi schemes. And the banksters have selected fascists to oversee Greek austerity measures. http://exiledonli...octrine/ How did that work out for Hitler, ryggesogn2? Did you get value from those conservative bankers? Your moneys worth?

@Noumenon P.S. Entry into the Iraq war was not founded on "lies" about wmd's. That is a over simplification.

True. It was also based upon an outright lie made by the US ambassador's daughter screaming about imaginary "incubator babies" and Kuwait stealing Iraq's oil by sideways drilling. Bush Sr. gave Saddam permission to invade Kuwait then turned around and invaded Iraq on the same pretense.

In the second invasion Saddam promised to sell Iraqi oil in euros, threatening the US reserve currency status whereby they destroy economies worldwide with useless paper bucks economies are forced to trade.

Socialists certainly have a blind spot for socialist totalitarian dictators that are the inevitable result of their faith.Govt control of private property is socialism. Whether the govt outright owns the property, like AMTRAK or GM or GSEs or if they control the property with onerous regulations, the govt owns the property and is socialism.I don't disagree the USA has been becoming more socialistic since the 'progressive' era began over 100 years ago.Govt control is govt control regardless of who is running the govt.Hayek dedicated The Road to Serfdom to socialists of all parties.

VD and other socialists need to keep their definition of socialism narrow and focused allowing socialism to keep expanding, allowing the govt to grow larger and take more control of lives and property. It is a steady drip, drip, drip, ....just like a Venereal Disease, and the victims of the socialist disease keep getting sicker.

This thread has gone off the rails. I am somewhat hesitent to reply to it anymore as I could be banned accidently in the mass banning that is coming should Physorg show even the slightest sign of giving a damn anymore about their site.

by the lower class that pay zero tax.

I would say there is no such thing except the Supreme Court in a massively insane decision decided corporations are people and there are people that don't pay taxes. The rest of us do. Even that utter parasite Leona Helmsley paid some taxes before she was prosecuted for evading most of them.

You have made that false claim before and got called on it. Its time you stopped that particular fairy story.

I am poor.

I pay taxes.

You tell a lot of lies. The only question is whether it is intentional or delusional.

Ethelred

Lies? Look it up your self. To be more accurate I should have said 'no income tax'. In 2009 something like 46% paid no income tax.

Hi Nou, Rygg, Ethelred. . . .uh oh LOL. . . .I see our favorite VendorOFTurds is back to spread some lies about our new Conservative Party. . . .well, good for him. . .he'll be one of the first to be lined up against the wall and shot for badmouthing Canada's closest neighbor when Canada becomes Communist. . . .and if it happens in the U.S.first, can Canada be far behind? :)

oh, before I forget. . . .for any of you who have been victimized by FrankHerbert the Head Troll and his racist scam. . . .here's how it goes. . . .I noticed that FrankHerb$hit follows Nou around to different threads just to bug him, and it turns out that Nou called him out on some topic that Frank was pretending to know all about. Frank didn't have a clue about the topic, but he was pissed because he was caught redhanded telling lies. So he's been after Nou since that time. And last night, Frank tried that racist bull$hit with me while his shill, Howhot, was waiting to accuse me also. Looks like FrankHerb$hit and Howhot$hit work in tandem. He might have even more shills that go in these threads. . .but I now know of one of them. FrankHerb$hit depends on the fact that a lot of Liberals are suffering from "white guilt" as though they were there during slavery times in the U.S.

FrankHerbert is a conman. . . .and has his shills ready to jump all over unsuspecting suckers in the threads. They're good at it. . . .blaming people as racists and bigots even though there's no evidence of it. They could even go further and do a shake down on someone who is scared $hitless that the shill is threatening to have his/her "boys" or brother's friends stomp all over the victim. It's important to watch what you say around Frank. He's an opportunist with no scruples.

FrankHerbert thought he and his shill could pull that racist/bigot $hit on me also, but I'm onto that kind of con. . . .Al Sharpton has done it, as has Jesse Jackson and so many others who are non-whites. People like that also prey on Hispanics. . . .except that Hispanics aren't as easily conned as white folks with that "Liberal white guilt" syndrome. Just to let you know to watch out.

Ethelred. . . .you've got to delve a lot deeper into the hard facts on what's really going on in this country. Sure, EVERYBODY has to pay "sales tax" at the pump, department stores, etc. But people who are chronically unemployed do NOT pay income tax at all, that includes the poor. They've got no income, therefore can't pay income tax. It's as simple as that. I can see that Liberals like you are also easy to con with bogus "facts". It's only when you go deeper that you finally see the truth.Most people don't bother and they become "reactionaries". just hitting out at the system they have been led to believe is so bad, but they don't SEE the corruption where it really is.

It's sad, but people with your mindset will help to bring down this country and replace our Constitutional Laws with Socialism/Communism. . . .and when that happens. . .you will NOT have the freedoms that you have now. . .and you will be engulfed by your so-called "poor" people, who pay no income tax, and they will RIP you and your family to pieces because you have so much more than them. MOB RULE equals democracy. That's why the founding fathers didn't want a democracy here.

BTW. . . .Ebonics originated with dem po' white folks in the Southern states. They are mostly the descendants of the Scots/Irish who came to America and settled in the Tennessee and Virginia/West Virginia Hills and in Georgia. What they call "Rednecks" who are usually dirt poor and uneducated and can't pronounce words very well. Their Scottish brogue gradually became Ebonics and when blacks lived amongst these whites, they, too, acquired the same accent and verbiage. So, Ebonics doesn't belong to minorities exclusively, who got it from white folks in the South and brought it to other places. Several of my neighbors here in the South speak Ebonics even though they are educated and are cultured. When they talk fast , I can't hardly understand them. A few times I caught myself sounding just like them and had to slow down a bit. LOLEbonics is really just a piece of Americana that's easy to pick up if you're not careful. My daughter-inlaw once said that they sound like "meow meow meow"

I find it fascinating to see the most shrill and obsessive comments about 'Commies' and 'Socialist' by folks that, just by reading their comments, have no idea what they are talking about..

Meaningless post void of actual content. One can say the same about some posting non-sense about conservatives and capitalism. Besides VD and likely kockevnik are actually, at least, socialists, probably at their own admission. So go find something shiny to play with.

But people who are chronically unemployed do NOT pay income tax at all, that includes the poor. They've got no income, therefore can't pay income tax. It's as simple as that.

The bottom 40% of Wage Earners pay no fed income tax,... Liberals only whine about the top 5% who pay the majority of tax revenue to the gov.

The only capitalism Obama understands is cronny capitalism; GE paid zero tax on their billions in profit last year!! Can't blame republicans for that.

Nou. . .I've found that chronic Liberalism is a set of ideas in the brains of diehard Liberals/Socialists that cannot be budged even by a stick of dynamite. No matter how hard anyone tries to inform these people of the true facts, they DON'T WANT TO KNOW IT. Your insistence on informing them of the reality doesn't faze them at all. Their Liberalism is like a brick wall and they don't WANT to tear it down. They OWN it, don't you see? It's their pride and joy.

Try to tear down their pride and joy and you utterly destroy THEM. They LIVE for, and with, those lies. They are the useful idiots that Lenin and Stalin counted on to prepare for Communism. T hat's why they wish to destroy our country and build it again from the ground up and from the top down. You're wasting your time bringing the real facts.

General Electric (GE) pays no taxes because a large percentage of their profits are paid to the Democratic National Committee and to Obama's Presidential campaign coffers. They also are beholden to the Unions to pay very high salaries to their employees, pay for health insurances, vacations, sick time, maternity leave, and all the other goodies for which the Obama administration deems necessary to be paid to keep everyone happy, including all the kickbacks to the administration and the Unions. A lot of dirty money gets passed around from GE to the White House and back again. Just think of all the expensive vacations that Barack and Michelle and their kiddies go on within the last 3 years. You don't do that on a President's salary even if you had millions in your bank account already. The corruption is rampant on both sides, Democrats and Republicans. That's what the $hit eating Liberals like, as long as their man brings down the country.

General Electric is a major defense contractor. You're seriously naive if you think GE itself is a liberal shill because of MSNBC. I don't think Rupert Murdoch is a conservative shill. He just knows there is a lucrative market in manufacturing shills for the "conservative" side. It's not as profitable for liberals which is evidenced by GE dumping MSNBC on Comcast. GE has recognized that manufacturing war machines is much more profitable than taking a liberal position against it.

Pirouette, you really have a poor understanding of... well everything.

What does GE make for defense? Jet engines, made in MA supported strongly by Kennedy and Kerry.I think significantly more revenue is derived from their subsidized windmill programs. They also contributed to the ban on light bulbs.Note GE is moving their medical imaging business outside the US to avoid Obamacare taxes on medical devices.

Pirouette, you know VERY little about what we Australians know/think. Our Conservative Oppostion leader Tony Abbot takes his 'cue' directly from YOUR 'wrecking'/ 'just say no' Conservative strategists. And like them, Tony is a hypocrite and liar and will do/say anything to 'wreck' solutions and deceive the public for personal/political gain. Example: Tony Abbot wants a NEW election because we have a MINORITY Labour govt.....but HYPOCRITE Tony does NOT 'advise' his Conservative British and New Zealand (Conservative Minority govts) chums to 'go back to the people'. Selfish Liar Hypocrite.

And if it wasn't for 'Greenies', you/your family would by now be swimming in pollution. And like I said, 'extremists' of ANY kind are dangerous.....even your very own home grown 'far right' nutcases. So don't throw stones or presume to speak for us Australians. OK?

They also are beholden to the Unions to pay very high salaries to their employees, pay for health insurances, vacations, sick time, maternity leave, and all the other goodies for which the Obama administration deems necessary

Pirouette, you know VERY little about what we Australians know/think. Our Conservative Oppostion leader Tony Abbot takes his 'cue' directly from YOUR 'wrecking'/ 'just say no' Conservative strategists. And like them, Tony is a hypocrite and liar and will do/say anything to 'wreck' solutions and deceive the public for personal/political gain. Example: Tony Abbot wants a NEW election because we have a MINORITY Labour govt.....but HYPOCRITE Tony does NOT 'advise' his Conservative British and New Zealand (Conservative Minority govts) chums to 'go back to the people'. Selfish Liar Hypocrite.

@Reality. . .wrong. . .I will be the first to admit that I know NOTHING about your country and your politics. I had no idea who Tony Abbott was until you mentioned him. We have our own problems in the U.S. and are trying to fix them.

How about you practice what you preach and stop speaking for all us Australians. You might want to check the results of the last election before you go off spouting your one sided leftie non-sense in support of JuLIAR and her insane intent of destroying the many successful economic and social outcomes that had the LNP and John Howard as the second longest serving government and Prime Minister in our political history.

As for the 'Greenies' they are dead meat at the next election. Wiped out into political oblivion and the commie Labor party reduced to insignificance.

Pirouette has as much right as you to comment, especially as you are so quick to bag US politics. I may not agree with Pirouette but you, RealityCheck, are just a misguided, narrow minded dimwit.Piss off.

But many of us may have to leave our own country if the Communists come into power here in the U.S. If WE fall, YOUR country will be defenseless against Red China. SOME people would like it that way, thinking that Socialism/Communism is the right way. There idealism won't last, though, once they find out the horror they're in for.

But I also fail to see what the "greenies" have to do with us swimming in pollution. Most people in the U.S. have enough common sense to not pollute. . . .and it's only some of the dimwits who are too stupid to care. They most often get a citation for dirtying up the environment and have to pay a stiff fine.But I'm sad for your political predicament. I guess that we all have our own "cross" to bear, eh?

LOL. . .I see the old toady FrahkHerb$hit and his Sicilian hating bigot racist pig buddy Howhot$hit are back. Invited them both to meet my bros coming over from Sicily and them 2 don't want to meet my family cuz we's Siciliano. Ain't that something, hmmmm?

They also are beholden to the Unions to pay very high salaries to their employees, pay for health insurances, vacations, sick time, maternity leave, and all the other goodies for which the Obama administration deems necessary

Humm sounds like "Promote the General Welfare" to me.

Class warfare income redistribution does not promote general welfare. It promotes general discord and strife.

But I also fail to see what the "greenies" have to do with us swimming in pollution. Most people in the U.S. have enough common sense to not pollute. . . .and it's only some of the dimwits who are too stupid to care. They most often get a citation for dirtying up the environment and have to pay a stiff fine.But I'm sad for your political predicament. I guess that we all have our own "cross" to bear, eh?

In the US and I suspect many other countries, it is the govt that has been the largest polluter and pollution has been on public or communal property, not private property.

Class warfare income redistribution does not promote general welfare. It promotes general discord and strife.

Daauuh R2. Of course class warfare doesn't promote anything; except the idea that the oppressed have power and that power should not be under estimated. The wealth mis-distribution is incredibly bad for a progressive society. A progressive liberal society our founding fathers envisioned and placed into law via the constitution and bill of rights.

What does GE make for defense? Jet engines, made in MA supported strongly by Kennedy and Kerry.I think significantly more revenue is derived from their subsidized windmill programs. They also contributed to the ban on light bulbs.Note GE is moving their medical imaging business outside the US to avoid Obamacare taxes on medical devices.

LOL. . . .moving their medical division overseas, eh? I see a bit of irony in that. True, if they were FORCED to pay taxes here on those products, they would have to charge a small fortune to sell their wares. They will hire cheap labor and have low overhead expenses. Sure can't blame GE. . .THEY know what's coming and they be scaaaaared. It's almost like a protection racket with GE and the Obama government. Big money passed around. The Unions getting their cut which pays for the DNC and Obama protection of GE. Really amazing $hit going on in this country.

Rygg2. . . .is YOU the R2 that Howhot$hit wuz talking about. Had no idea who R2 is or this Purefruit fella that nutcase Howhot$hit kept talking about either. Ah KNOWS dey ain't be talkin bout ME cuz dat ain't MY name no way no how. . . .muahahahahahahahaaaaaa:)I thinks to mahsef. . .dis Howhot$hit and dat FrankHerb$hit just be BIIIIG troublemakers. . .trying to get a RISE out of somebody wif dey racist accusations dat don' even make no sense. Ah just KNOWS dey gonna hit SOMEbody up fo some money sometime.

Pirouette, There is a story to tell about my political opportunities but I'll save that for when/if you visit.In the meantime I can just imagine the press reports of me found with an American lady in a red silk nightdress, a stolen car and alleged love affair with Vendi .. how strange .. that sounds very much like a successful politician !

If we do get substantial global warming through climate change then the classic Sicilian retribution of someone 'sleeping with the fishes' might be difficult to implement. Maybe no fish! Oh of course, lets feed Howhot to tropical Piranhas.

@Howhot, don't upset me now. Move on while you still can.

@FrankH, you are clearly a smart bloke. Lay off the insulting crap when you disagree with others, its not always funny. You are clearly capable of advanced reasoning and I often find you a valuable contributor to these comments. Let some things slide.

dayum. . . .I's been living in a white community here in da South so long I's now speaking dat Ebonics language I 's learning from dem po' white folks. shoooooot

And what dat Howhot$hit be yammering about some kind of N label and reap and sow. He crazy or sumpin? Must be. . .cuz ah NEVER sent no PM to dat nutjob troublemaker FrankHerb$hit and he be a lyin sumabitch

blue. . .mah first wife was a mulatto lady, half white and half black. . .beautiful woman. . .but she up and died and left me sorrowing fo a longgggg timeNow I gots me a young girl friend and you is telling me that she put on her red silk nightie and be going out wif Venditurd in his stolen car? Dat bad, man. . . .I don want HER no mo.

blue. . . .oh . . .got my English back again. . .LOL.I sure don't know much about Australia except that there's wallabys and kangaroos, etc. and that you don't have a President. . .a prime minster, I think . .But, if things get too bad in my own country and yours is still pretty normal, you MIGHT see a big influx of Conservative Americans applying for visas and permanent residency. The political climate in my own country is getting really stupid. Mayors of big and small cities are kowtowing to the great unwashed Socialist rabble who would tear their grandmothers apart to get at their gold fillings these days. Social unrest by the welfare gimme gimme crowd are stinking up public parks and defecating all over the place. . .nastiness prevails. . .I would like to know that you are going to pursue public office. Maybe you can help make this a better world.

@FrankH, you are clearly a smart bloke. Lay off the insulting crap when you disagree with others, its not always funny. You are clearly capable of advanced reasoning and I often find you a valuable contributor to these comments. Let some things slide.

Why don't you direct that advice at your new house guest / political adviser?

How about you practice what you preach and stop speaking for all us Australians. You might want to check the results of the last election....

As for the 'Greenies' they are dead meat....

Pirouette has as much right as you to comment....

Hi bluehigh.

Televised Republican Debates show the intelligence/integrity/sanity (not) in US conservative politics now. I merely point it out to pirouette because he seems confused as to the reality on the ground there.

If you really are Australian, you should know and acknowledge Tony Abbot's 'Mr No' wrecking and lying Hypocrisy etc.

Australia weathered the GFC well because Labour came into govt during the crucial time; the Libs/conservatives would have done nothing, and SERIOUS recession would be the reality here NOW.

Aussie farmers now see 'greenies' as allies against rapacious/polluting corporations. Go figure!

RealityCheck, keep it up matey and I'll drop kick ya back into the sewer where you crawled from. You want to have a go dickwad then wrap this around ya laughing gear.

We avoided the GFC because we are selling our resources as fast as possible to fund handouts to scum like you. Tony Abbott (do try spell the mans name correctly you ignorant turd, after all he is a Rhodes scholar and a bit more educated than you), would win a popular vote by a landslide if an election was held now and likely will win in the future. You are the one seriously confused. Go grab your dole money you sponge, do your drugs and piss off. Keep it up matey and I'll show you just how much us real Aussies give a shit about pretentious little pricks like you.

I think that was reasonable and balanced comment or RealityCheck did you want to take this further. Best you shut ya face and move on.

@FrankH, agreed. Pirouette you too - let this shit slide. We all need to get along somehow.

Thats the second time I had to call you on that. And the use of the term 'lower classes' was rather telling.

It might be better if you didn't chop up my quotes into such little pieces.

1000 character limit. Convince Physorg to change it. I didn't change the meaning and the entire original is just up the page. If you find that the quotes show you as something you would prefer not to be seen as then change the way think about people. I found your statements quite appalling and in no way mere realism.

Despite what you say I think you know there was an element of truth wrt the young and tendency toward liberalism.

Despite that protestation of innocence you still accused those that don't think as you of either being young, what a horrible thing, or "you have no brains". If you don't like the way that makes you look CHANGE and not just the appearance.>>

P.S. Entry into the Iraq war was not founded on "lies" about wmd's. That is a over simplification.

I did not claim it was, those lies, and they were lies, where what got most of the votes Bush needed from Democrats and even many Republicans. The oversimplification is yours. I pointed out the real reason. He had a need to show his daddy the size of his dick. There was no military or strategic reason for going there and it took away resources that should have been used in Afghanistan.

Lies?

Yes.

Look it up your self. To be more accurate I should have said 'no income tax'.

You didn't so you lied. I pointed it before so you knew better.

In 2009 something like 46% paid no income tax.

And they paid taxes anyway. They didn't pay INCOME TAX because greedy assholes sent the production jobs overseas where they not only pay crap they often pay crap to kids.>>

I find it hard to believe that you told the same lie twice to me and thought you would get away with after I already called you on it once.- Ethelred

You seem more interested in characterizing me as telling a lie than the point in question. I said "lower class pay zero taxes". When someone says the lower class pays no taxes, it should be obvious what it meant.

Thats you oppinion. They were originally denying global warming and then when most figured out the world was warming they denied that humans had anything to do with it. THEY coopted AGW that once meant Anti-Global Warming and made it into Anthropocentric Global Warming. So them became mere deniers. You got a better term?

its derrogatory.

Tuff. They bastardized and misused AGW.

. its not a fair rebuttal to start off with "denialist Tard!")

Tard is one persons behavior. A troll at that.

this is physorg for god's sake

That is a strange way to put it on a science site. Which god? In any probably nonexistent deities have nothing to do with it. If you want to see really batshit insane stuff try looking at the Yahooligans.

The oversimplification is yours. I pointed out the real reason. He had a need to show his daddy the size of his dick.

Right so that's not a oversimplification!!!? LOL

I did not claim it was, those lies, and they were lies, where what got most of the votes Bush needed from Democrats and even many Republicans

The point of congress voting was to provide an independent assessment of the issue. If these votes were contingent on anything Bush said, they would have been redundant.

To properly understand Iraq one has to carefully examine the history in detail. The hysterical hate-Bush zombies just want to say "no wmd's = Bush lied", an oversimplification. The inputting that mattered is that the majority of the world thought Saddam had them, despite the UN inspectors meaningless hide-n-seek game.

The inputting that mattered is that the majority of the world thought Saddam had them, despite the UN inspectors meaningless hide-n-seek game.

The majority of the world got its information from the CIA that had an incompetent idiot that backed down when Bush demanded evidence that didn't exist. So he basically manufactured it by using information from the Germans to support information from the Brits when the Brits told him that the source wasn't to be believed. The source was the same person in both cases. Thats all they had. One LIAR who lied to two countries. They had nothing else.

people who are chronically unemployed do NOT pay income tax at all, that includes the poor.

That is because the are POOR. This includes people that work hard. Most of them work hard.

Liberals like you are also easy to con with bogus "facts".

No you can't con me with dubious 'facts'. And I am NOT a liberal though there is nothing wrong in being one. Disagreeing with batshit insane RightWingNutRetainerClips does not make me a liberal. It makes me sane.

Most people don't bother and they become "reactionaries".

You have that covered.

but they don't SEE the corruption where it really is.

I do. 38 members of the Reagan-Bush administration were convicted. Two were later overturned leaving, a still by far, record of 36 convictions, mostly for corruption and malfeasance in office. At the Federal level it is the people that have no respect for the government that have done the most stealing and that is Republicans.

RealityCheck, keep it up matey and I'll drop kick ya back into the sewer where you crawled from. You want to have a go dickwad then wrap this around ya laughing gear.

We avoided the GFC because we are selling our resources as fast as possible to fund handouts to scum like you. Tony Abbott (do try spell the mans name correctly you ignorant turd, after all he is a Rhodes scholar and a bit more educated than you), would win a popular vote by a landslide if an election was held now and likely will win in the future. You are the one seriously confused. Go grab your dole money you sponge, do your drugs and piss off. Keep it up matey and I'll show you just how much us real Aussies give a shit about pretentious little pricks like you.

I think that was reasonable and balanced comment or RealityCheck did you want to take this further. Best you shut ya face and move on.

P.S. Entry into the Iraq war was not founded on "lies" about wmd's. That is a over simplification.

I did not claim it was, those lies, and they were lies, where what got most of the votes Bush needed from Democrats and even many Republicans. The oversimplification is yours. I pointed out the real reason. He had a need to show his daddy the size of his dick. There was no military or strategic reason for going there and it took away resources that should have been used in Afghanistan.

Lies?

Yes.

Look it up your self. To be more accurate I should have said 'no income tax'.

You didn't so you lied. I pointed it before so you knew better.

In 2009 something like 46% paid no income tax.

And they paid taxes anyway. They didn't pay INCOME TAX because greedy assholes sent the production jobs overseas where they not only pay crap they often pay crap to kids.>>

Rygg2 says:Dems conrolled Congress from 2006-2010.Dems had WH and Congress from 2008 to 2010.Dems have FULL responsibility now.

I find it's always best to separate the two parts of Congress into the HOUSE of Representatives, and the SENATE, even they are both basically of the same Legislative body. THAT way those who aren't aware of our system will have a better idea of the percentages of Republicans as opposed to Demorats in Congress, and in which years there were a majority or a minority of either Party.2010 saw a majority of Republicans elected to the HOUSE, while there remains a majority of Demorats in the Senate. There is one Demorat in the Senate who has now decided not to run for reelection in 2012. There may be other Demorats in either House or Senate that will not run either, but as yet, I haven't heard of others. 2012 will be an exciting year for politics. I hope common sense will prevail in voters.

Ethelred. . . .since you seem to be concerned regarding my girlfriend. I am much older than she, who is only 27. At some point, I know that she will leave to pursue a life of marriage with someone else, children and a nice home. I am resigned to that and will accept it when it happens. But we agree on most everything, especially in the political arena and she, even at 27 understands the dangers society faces if and when we lose our freedom through a Socialist/Communist system in the U.S. She feels sadness for people like Ethelred and Kovechnik, who are deluded and blinded by their ideology and lack the common sense needed to reject such Socialistic and Communist nonsense. I DON'T feel such sadness. Grown men and women are capable of making choices, and will have to LIVE with those choices, whether good or bad. I will not try to change anyone from the path they have chosen. I no longer care.

The point is DEMS had two full years to make changes to the tax code, but decided instead to ram through a national health care plan without reading the bill.No choice is also a choice.

Yes. . .LOL. . . .I recall that rich Demorat political whore Nancy Pelosi saying that the only way to find out what's IN the Health Care bill is to VOTE for it first. WOW. . . .what a piece of work THAT was.

""In 2009 something like 46% paid no income tax.Ethelred says:And they paid taxes anyway. They didn't pay INCOME TAX because greedy assholes sent the production jobs overseas where they not only pay crap they often pay crap to kids.>>""

Greedy? When a business is forced by Unions (with the full backing of the government), to pay high salaries and expensive benefits to workers who believe they cannot be fired no matter WHAT they do and the businesses are pushed over their financial brink also by ridiculous and senseless rules and regulations by the government? GREEDY? You people seem to forget that JOBS ARE NOT A RIGHT. Jobs are ONLY made available when businesses require workers for PRODUCTION OF A PRODUCT OR A SERVICE.

If there is no need for that production or service, there is no NEED for workers. AND, if the workers prove to be lazy, indolent, and a danger in the workplace, but the government prevents the employers from firing the lazy bums. . . .do you really think that those workers should continue to be paid those high salaries and good benefits while screwing the employers and the company?? In the above link, the employers found the evidence too overwhelming and fired their asses forthwith. But many other companies did not have enough evidence of wrongdoing and, instead, packed up and moved overseas where the Chinese managers make SURE that the work gets done. The Red Chinese don't stand for $hit from their workers. Either you work productively or you're out of a job. And there's plenty more looking for a job. They don't mess around in those countries like they do in the U.S.

The inputting that mattered is that the majority of the world thought Saddam had them, despite the UN inspectors meaningless hide-n-seek game.

The majority of the world got its information from the CIA that had an incompetent idiot that backed down when Bush demanded evidence that didn't exist. So he basically manufactured it by using information from the Germans to support information from the Brits when the Brits told him that the source wasn't to be believed. The source was the same person in both cases. Thats all they had. One LIAR who lied to two countries. They had nothing else.

Ethelred

Not defending GWBush's choices, but the fact that every time the U.N. Inspectors led by that milquetoast decided that they were going to inspect the Iraqi sites for WMDs, they made sure first to ANNOUNCE the coming inspection well in advance of their visit to the Iraqis. With so much time and given the advance warning, Saddam and his military had PLENTY of time to HIDE any WMDs.

Pirouette, just so you know: As a conservative I felt compelled to report two earlier positings of yours where you were referencing assumed sexual preferences of other posters and suggested they have a 3-way, among other degressive language. This is not the mature, logical and reasoned approach to debate an issue as should be expected from a conservative. Please don't claim to be a conservative unless you actually act like one. Such posts do not add to the debate, they only add to the examples to be used by anti-conservatives to prove how moronic we can be. Such posts do us real conservatives a disservice. Debate the issues, provide evidence and quotations - yes, but obscene language is only taken as hate-speech, adds fuel to their fire and discredits yourself.

The desert sands of Iraq are most likely where the WMDs have been hidden. Suitcase bombs and rocket launchers are small enough to bury until needed. They are all probably still there and the U.S. government is none the wiser. Eventually, these WMDs may be dug up by Al Quada once American soldiers leave. So keep on with hating Bush. . . .he is gone these 3 years and is safe in Texas.Don't forget where Saddam was found. . .in a hole in the ground in the desert.

SteveL. . . .thank you for the constructive criticism. I shall try to tone down my verbiage. Are you aware also that FrankHerbert has used the "N" word in this thread to lie that I had sent him a PM with that whole word in it? Since I never send him PMs because he is despicable and a jerk AND a lyer, I will ask Physorg to read his message and then determine if I have ever, as I was accused of, sending any kind of PM to FrankHerbert. Physorg will back me up with the truth.

Hans Blix was the milquetoast I was referring to, the lead U.N. Inspector. HE made CERTAIN that the Iraqis could MOVE any WMDs they had into the desert long before the arrival of the inspectors. He may as well have put up a bell tower also to ring the bell when the inspectors were approaching the site. He sure gave them plenty of warning. What a schmuck

@SteveL. . . .I'm afraid I don't have too much hope for the Conservative cause in the U.S. In spite of good people like Beck, Limbaugh, Hannity and all the rest of them trying to inform the public, they are preaching to the choir and the rest are gravitating towards that which will eventually bring oblivion and horror to ALL of us. Total fabrications are being spewed out about the TEA Party, comparing them to the KKK and Hitler. Such foolishness and idiocy will never stop until the Socialists take over our country and then Communism is instituted as the preferred system. Believe me, it WILL happen, because America is now full of those people who have been educated to THINK and BELIEVE all the wrong things. . .and they don't even realize what they're doing. I find that intelligence has nothing to do with it. They have lost common sense. It's gone and the mob thinking is now with us.

Yes. It was. That is why it was reprehensible. I am NOT lower class than you simply because I make less money.

How so? How should I have said it?

Boy if there was ever something that deserved the responce of 'if you don't allready know you are never going to'.

Oh, o.k.,..I see now, ..you seemed to have taken "lower class" as if Thurston Howell would have used the phrase,.. as a value judgement .. while clearly given context I'm meant 'lower class with respect to income'. P.s. I am not in the upper class.

Look at Herman Cain. . . .he's a good, honest man who ran a good, honest business. Look what they're doing to him just because he's black. All the lies and innuendo from the Liberals who send these nutjob women in to accuse Cain of things he's never done. And yet, they gave a pass to Bill Clinton and HIS sexual romps in the White House with Monica Lewinsky and roared disapproval when the Republicans saw fit to impeach Clinton. The double standards in American politics is appalling and destructive. But it all falls in line with Obama's desire to destroy our country. . .with whatever means necessary.

Idiots all three. Especially Beck. They all lie. And you believed them so now you repeat the lies.

I am not concerned about your alleged girlfriend. I was pointing out that no knows which post is which person and that assuming there is another person.

For that matter I am not concerned about you. Anyone that thinks Glen Beck was anything but a lying SOB is an idiot. Man couldn't even get the something as simple as the Constitution right. Seems to managed to skip over the fact that the Feds are in charge of Interstate trade at the very least.

Odd how this honest business man and his honest business paid multiple women to keep quiet about accusations of sexual harrasment against him.

And then there is the mistress who has just showed up at his doorstep.

Now if he were only obsessed with porn, Long Dong Silver, and vaginal fisting, he would make a perfect replacement for U.S. supreme court Judge Clarence "Is that a pubic hair I see on my coke can?" Thomas.

If these votes were contingent on anything Bush said, they would have been redundant.

Nonsense. He was responsible for the bad information that Congress given.

Sorry. you are factually misinformed. Intel was responsible for the "bad information". The point of Congress in voting for war is absolutely to make an independent analysis and decision. You are asking me to believe that an anti-Bush congress would have subordinated themselves to what ever Bush said!? Doesn't work that way.

I gave a list of democrats above that believed fully that Saddam had WMD's and was a threat, and I can provide quotes. That's all that matters, what people thought,.. because the history of the subject lead to that point.

The best that UN inspectors could have said is that "we didn't find wmd's",... NOT "there are no wmd's in Iraq".

The only way the lidiot left could have "logically" made the claim that Bush lied about wmd's ,.. was to invade the country and look!!

The American Communist Party grows stronger, SteveL. . .they support Obama and his agenda. I spoke to one Communist last year and he told me that it's only a matter of time until they take over the country and CHANGE everything. After they get their people into key positions in the government, they will turn everything around, get rid of the Constitution and start the reeducation of the people. That's what worried me. I worry because there won't be enough of us to fight the Communists in our OWN COUNTRY. People are just too gullible and want to be taken care of from cradle to grave and will do anything to have that. They WILL get it, BUT they will have to WORK for it. There will be no unemployment, the guy said. EVERYBODY will have to work. No work, no pay. . . .and no welfare queens allowed.I was impressed by what he said and I BELIEVE HIM. You should too.

I consider neither Limbaugh nor Hannity as conservative. Both are pompous in attitude and excessive in lifestyle.

As for what anti-conservatives say or do it cannot be helped. The best that can be hoped for is to maintian our cool and provide a good example of educated discourse. Perhaps there are some that will be impressed enough by the maturity and civility of our discourse to actually read posted links and consider the data provided.

One of the best ways to discredit a group is to have them considered extreme or radical. The use of extreme and radical language assists them in labelling conservatives as such. Consider this:

Vendicarrion. . . .so far, you have quoted accusations of alleged EXTRAMARITAL sexual experiences of 2 HONEST BLACK MEN who happen to be politically Conservatives and are successful in their live and highly intelligent who have both "left the plantation", as Herman Cain proudly says. It seems to me that YOU are equating successful Black men with sexual promiscuity because they are not Liberals or Socialists, but instead have succeeded in life due to their own intelligence and willingness to work hard.Or is it that you just don't like Black men and wish to keep them in their place, eh?

Let's use conservative logic. In order for Bush to have lied about wmd's being in Iraq,.. he would have to have known that there were in fact NO wmd's in Iraq,.. because at one time there actually was wmd's in Iraq by Saddams own admittance and documented use.

Only Saddam was responsible for accounting for wmd's,.. Bush was NOT responsible for there being wmd's or not being wmd's in Iraq, ever.

I don't know that what is happening to the "Cain Train" is because he is black. Such a statement seems irrational to me and without basis of proof. Racism is one of those areas that should really require a preponderance of proof before that card is played.

While I'm not in the position to presume guilt or innocence, I am in a position to observe there is an aweful lot of smoke on the "Cain Train" for there not to be any fire.Sadly I'm in a position where I don't think any person in either American main party is worth my vote. Every one I see seems to either be highly incompetent or to have sold themselves out for political gain. It's sad to have to vote for whomever I think will do the least amount of damage to my country.

@SteveL. . . .thanks for that link. . . .yes, I've always suspected that the "extremism" label that Liberals/Socialists have marked Conservatives had to do with their attempt to convince the non-thinkers in our American society that Liberalism is (allegedly) the best form of belief and values. AND the suckers fall for it all the time. Language is a powerful tool. . . .but as I've said, the Liberals, Socialists/Communists are applying those connotations to the Conservative momement, WITH NO EVIDENCE FOR IT. I've been to rallies and have never seen white hoods and sheets or men on horses with ropes ready for any lynchings. But nutty people believe the lies and accept them as true. That's why I'm starting to feel that I''m just better off sitting back and watching the whole thing unfold, and when the wailing starts on the part of the stupid Liberals, I'll just laugh and say, "see, I told ya so".

The "American Dream" will slowly unfold into an American nightmare. Maybe these Liberal/Socialists NEED the Communist Party to start breaking some of their heads before they wake up from their stupor and smell the $hit that will be going on. ooops. . .dinner time. . .bbl

The [only thing] that mattered is that the majority of the world thought Saddam had them, despite the UN inspectors meaningless hide-n-seek game.

The majority of the world got its information from the CIA that had an incompetent idiot that backed down when Bush demanded evidence that didn't exist. So he basically manufactured it

Again, this is patently false, and demonstrates that you, like FrankHubris, are ignorant of the history of this. The worlds knowledge of Saddam and WMDs did not hinge on the CIA, but rather documented history, Saddam's own words, and brutal actions against his own people and Iran.

The UN passed resolutions calling for Saddam to demonstrate the destruction those stockpiles (he admitted to having). Saddam failed to provide proof of this.

It's likely he wanted to retain some fear in his neighbors, and to prevent them from thinking he was completely neutered. Or he could have been clueless. Irrelevant.

I am not a Republican and never have been. Early on, I understood that there is corruption and misguided choices in both the Demorat and Republican Parties. Neither party has been corruption free, even though there are also good, honest people in both parties who only want the best for the people and the country. But THOSE people are more Conservative and less Liberal even though they happen to be running on the Demorat Party ticket. AND there are so-called Republicans who are "Republican in Name Only" (RINO). So I avoid either party. As far as Beck goes, I agree with 98% of what he says. But he sucks up to Jews and Israel a bit too much to be normal, as though Israel is far more important than is the U.S. I understand that one of the reasons for that would be that Beck is a member of the LDS church. That is my only issue with him. He is a nice guy anyway and that's importan

.....What is clear is that ONLY Saddam was responsible for supplying proof that the wmd's were disposed of,.... The USA was never responsible for there being WMD's in Iraq or not being in Iraq!

Idiots and cowards at the UN wanted to make it all about whether Saddam happened to have WMD's available in the stock room then. So they took the expected limp wrist approach the UN usually does,... and asked Saddam, 'please sir lead us to your illegal weapon depot, won't you please?'. Preposterous.

By themselves the WMD's are harmless. The concern was the mentality that would use them against innocent people, or manufacture more once UN resolutions expired. Saddam (in outright slaughtering 5,000 Kurdish), proved impossible to trust in a post 911 world.

It was an opportunity. Iraq provided a base right next to Iran. Kadaffi wet his pants and gave up his wmd's. It was demonstrated to Iran that we are willing and able...

I and most other Conservatives are very discriminating for whom we vote, irregardless of race, color, ethnicity, gender, sexual preference and any disabilities. The people I listen to on radio and TV reflect my opinions and views as a Conservative. But I also listen to opposing views such as on NPR for amusement and to see what can be expected from Liberals. I find that Liberals and Socialists are faux intellectuals who are highly imaginative regarding their ideas of what societal mores and values should be and must be. They believe that parents have no right to raise their own children in old fashioned values and traditions and that it is the public school faculties who are the ones to determine what should or should not be taught the children at home. And, if the parents object, then the children must be removed from the home and placed in foster care, even if the children are in no danger whatsoever. This is the Liberal counter culture at work and is beginning of a rotten society.

Saddam and his sons were mindless terrorists who gloried in murdering their own people, as well as the Kurds and establishing rape rooms for the sons and other men. They were mad dogs, and what do you do with mad dogs? You put them down and bury them. Iraq was a justified war in that Saddam would eventually have blocked off the Persian Gulf and eliminated our supply of oil from the Middle East. Many people would argue that oil was not a valid justification for going to war. But you could also argue that there is NO valid justification for ANY wars, since in either situation, brave men die in battle and money is spent on war materiel, and the outcome is always the same. But Saddam was too evil, as was Gaddafy, Mubarak, Hitler, Hirohito and all other dictators. If they weren't deposed or disposed of by war, then they would have taken even MORE lives. War is a necessary evil. Our next great war will be most likely with Red China and we will also have to defend Australia and the whole

Southeast Asia. I doubt that Europe will join with us on that one, unless it's in their vested interest to do so. In WW2, only England and Australia stood with us. If Australia is threatened by the Chinese, it would be in their interest to join with us.

Racism is one of those areas that should really require a preponderance of proof before that card is played.

It doesn't stop the 'liberal'/socialist.It is demonstrable the 'liberals' are racist. Race, gender, sexual orientation,.... dominates their view of voters.

You are correct that Liberals are racists. They're ALWAYS considering race in almost every conversation and issue. They look for racism and bigotry in other people, searching for any word that might condemn the person speaking as a racist and/or bigot, and there are times when they can't find it, they will fabricate it by telling lies without valid proof so that everyone else thinks it's true. Herman Cain is suffering such lies, even though it's not racial. David Axelrod, Obama's campaign manager, has put at least one woman up to lying about Cain making sexual advances, obviously in the hopes that Cain will drop out of the run for President. That poor man had the best chance of all to win.

But Liberals are the biggest racists of all, because they feel justified in saying or typing the "N" word because they are such friends of minorities and they believe that minorities couldn't possibly feel hurt by hearing a Liberal say the whole N word. Truth is that Liberals USE minorities as their tools. They're something to talk about and Liberals love to discuss the minority situation at dinner parties, faculty meetings and anywhere that academics gather.

Lol, conservatives think racism is as simple as not saying "nigger". I typed it out. Doesn't make me a racist. The quotes aren't a shield either. I'm not calling anyone nigger.

This is one of those "common sense" toe the line talking points of theirs. Racism is all but formally defined for them as "use of the 'n' word (because remember don't say it!) It doesn't matter what is in your heart, as long as you don't say that word! That's all you gotta remember!"

This way they can make all sorts of points about rap and other cultural phenomena as black people (and those who sympathize with them) are "the real racists".

Just look at Pirouette's pages and pages of Ebonics. It's obvious he is mocking...

*TRAP SPRUNG*Pirouette: "I wasn't mocking anyone! You said that not me! You're the racist! I have a mulatto ex wife! See!!!!!"

If it's not obvious to you it never will be.

Nice attempt at disinformation with the whole PM bs. The communists would be proud of you.

Rygg2. . . .thanks for the link. Very interesting article.I think one of the reasons for Demorats abandoning blue collar workers (especially WHITE blue collar workers) is that blue collar workers don't have the kind of money to donate to the DNC and support Obama's campaign for reelection. They're too worried about losing their jobs in the private sector (Obama HATES the private sector) that they are trying to SAVE every extra penny they earn for if and when it happens. Obama and his regime are butt buddies with rich corporations like GE and GM so that they can hit them up for a fortune in "donations" for campaigning Demorats. Unions pay a fortune also to Dems for protection against corporations firing their union members and so that GE doesn't break its contractual agreements with the unions. It's a big "protection racket" all around. As has been said before, GE don't pay no taxes no mo' to da gummint.

In addition to that, Obama and the Dem National Committee (DNC) get lots of loot from Liberal and Socialist celebrities like Oprah, Sean Penn, Spielberg and many others. So Obama and the DNC are doing fine, just rolling in money. They don't really want a MIDDLE class anyway. Middle class people are interested in the private sector jobs and putting their kids through college to make a better life.They're considered by the Liberal academics to be sniffed at and dismissed from any conversations, except to make fun of them and point out how poor they really are, those blue collar workers. Liberal/Socialists believe in equality for all workers. . .and since everybody CAN'T be rich. . .then everybody has to be poor equally. And only the elite when they meet can greet each other, safe in the knowledge that they are a better class than those lowly blue collar workers who have to work to support themselves and their families. They consider the kids as ragamuffins to be pitied.

blue. . .mah first wife was a mulatto lady, half white and half black. . .beautiful woman. . .but she up and died and left me sorrowing fo a longgggg timeNow I gots me a young girl friend and you is telling me that she put on her red silk nightie and be going out wif Venditurd in his stolen car? Dat bad, man. . . .I don want HER no mo.

"Please don't claim to be a conservative unless you actually act like one.". Yeah, like William F. Buckley. I wonder if @purefruit is just a pay by the post bot. He obviously doesn't sleep. Perhaps he is on crank.

I think he's just trying to uptick the emotions as the USA reviews KOSOVO and the actions necessary to mitigate global CO2 emissions. Yeap 115F in TX everyday for summer months sounds really pleasant. I mean, how do you drill-a-baby-drill when it is that hot?

What the hell. I actually went back and found the "mars critters" blog Pirouette linked and claimed his 27-year-old girlfriend authors (he's retired, eww). That is if she is even real and it isn't Pirouette making it all up him/herself.

"It also appears that at least one of the tools on the Spirit's arm has cut open the little pie-shaped creature that is within the porthole-like round object on the rock. The creature has a face with 2 eyes, a possible nose and a mouth. It is apparently dead. It is hard to say whether or not the cutting open of the creature can be counted as murder...The Rover has to be held blameless....the scientists who guided the Rover's actions had to have seen the Being and should have stopped the killing...I consider it a very bad start for Mars exploration and a terrible shame and waste of a life."

"From what I see in many of these rocks, it is my own opinion that diminutive life has been created/evolved on Mars and is living within hollowed-out rocks and other forms of protective residences...

The rock is dwarfed by the Spirit Rover and it (the rock) may have been bounced upon by the rover when it landed on Mars, bouncing many times inside its protective balloon before it rolled to a stop.This is merely conjecture on my part, but it is a possibility since the occupants of this "rock" appear to have died, either by the glassy covering being broken, which let their atmosphere dissipate, or the Spirit's balloon bounced upon it, causing trauma and death."

Mini-Martians in glass-terrariums that just happen to look exactly like rocks.

"This shows the round pea-like objects lying on the ground. Scientists haven't yet discovered the objects' origin or purpose, but I think that they may be insect egg casings or waste matter produced by insects or a higher lifeform."

The oversimplification is yours. I pointed out the real reason. He had a need to show his daddy the size of his dick.

Right so that's not a oversimplification!!!? LOL

I did not claim it was, those lies, and they were lies, where what got most of the votes Bush needed from Democrats and even many Republicans

The point of congress voting was to provide an independent assessment of the issue. If these votes were contingent on anything Bush said, they would have been redundant.

To properly understand Iraq one has to carefully examine the history in detail. The hysterical hate-Bush zombies just want to say "no wmd's = Bush lied", an oversimplification. The inputting that mattered is that the majority of the world thought Saddam had them, despite the UN inspectors meaningless hide-n-seek game.

Guess you missed the tape of Dubbya explaining the off the record reason, didn't you.

"From what I see in many of these rocks, it is my own opinion that diminutive life has been created/evolved on Mars and is living within hollowed-out rocks and other forms of protective residences...

The rock is dwarfed by the Spirit Rover and it (the rock) may have been bounced upon by the rover when it landed on Mars, bouncing many times inside its protective balloon before it rolled to a stop.This is merely conjecture on my part, but it is a possibility since the occupants of this "rock" appear to have died, either by the glassy covering being broken, which let their atmosphere dissipate, or the Spirit's balloon bounced upon it, causing trauma and death."

"This shows the round pea-like objects lying on the ground. Scientists haven't yet discovered the objects' origin or purpose, but I think that they may be insect egg casings or waste matter produced by insects or a higher lifeform."

Guess you missed the tape of Dubbya explaining the off the record reason, didn't you.

He'll pretty much plug his ears and repeat "it doesn't matter. It's all Saddam's fault for Bush thinking he had those non-existent weapons. All Saddam had to do was prove a negative. What a dummy! I actually believe he has suitcase nukes buried in the desert because I gave Pirouette a 5 for that comment. LOL!"

Pirouette is smarter than you understand. Talk about making clowns out of most of you. Its a send up ya dills, an absurd parody. Its really funny that you don't get it! Look closer at the Mars pics, go on, check again, look closer .. ROTFL. So funny to see the pretentious make fools of themselves. Talk about it seriously some more, get cranky .. i'm pissing myself with laughter. You Buffoons!

Another symbol of 'liberal' racism is 'Affirmative Action' and the govt requirements that racial data be collected on census forms and nearly every govt form.Some states are want their state funded school districts to report on the number of illegal alien students they are trying to educate. But the 'liberals' become quite upset at this. Why?

"Because remember guys, BLACKS ARE THE REAL RACISTS!" - ryggtard on behalf of all conservatives

The phenomenon above is explained by the "acknowledging racism makes you a racist meme. Affirmative action acknowledges past racism, so it's obviously racist itself," goes the thought. It's ingenious in its simplicity. Everyone knows the first step towards fixing a problem is acknowledging it, and yet what is virtually the number 1 rule of conservatism? Never mention racism unless its the racism of the other side after they brought it up first so you look a little more credible.

Just read that sentence a few times if you've ever agreed with anything Marjon has to say.

He made a joke out of the concept of equal opportunity, then virtually verbatim came out and said "blacks are the real racists". Is anyone going to deny my analysis of this meme now? Marjon is so incapable of critical self thought he cannot come up with a single comment that doesn't tank his entire ideology. It's ridiculous.

It is the 'liberal' that has used EO to empower themselves and create animosity and occasionally blackmail as Jesse Jackson has done for years.The only time 'liberals' ignore the color of someone's skin or gender is if they oppose socialism as Clarence Thomas, Herman Cain, Sarah Palin, and other ungrateful minorities who has escaped the 'progressive' plantation have done.

I spoke to one Communist last year and he told me that it's only a matter of time until they take over the country and CHANGE everything.

People are just too gullible...BUT they will have to WORK for it. There will be no unemployment, the guy said. EVERYBODY will have to work. No work, no pay. . . .and no welfare queens allowed....and I BELIEVE HIM.

YOU seem the gullible one...parroting your media 'heroes' and 'believing' a random "the guy".

You demonize those losing jobs/homes in a GFC created by UNFETTERED capitalist SPECULATION & TRICKERY.

Your anonymous communist "guy" promises NO 'welfare queens'? Isn't that what YOU want too? So you and "the guy" agree EXTREME ideology is the way to go? Extremely bad idea!

Your irrational fear-mongering, gullibility and parroting denies the SAFE structure of US democratic govt. and the INDEPENDENT INSTITUTIONS (Military, Judiciary, Free Press...and NOW, the INTERNET which cannot be censored as you claim).

Another symbol of 'liberal' racism is 'Affirmative Action' and the govt requirements that racial data be collected on census forms and nearly every govt form.Some states are want their state funded school districts to report on the number of illegal alien students they are trying to educate. But the 'liberals' become quite upset at this. Why?

It appears that FrankHer$hit is either black himself OR he is a hater of White people in general, particularly if the white people don't follow his own Liberal political leanings, he will attempt to label them racist and bigot through lies and innuendo. He seems to have quite a following here and he gets enraged when he is proven incorrect or dead wrong on any of the topics being discussed. FrankHerb$hit most likely wants to see the elimination of the white race and jumps for joy when the news is about young black men murdering, injuring and stealing from white people.

FrankHerb$hit must enjoy seeing videos of white people getting stomped on and horrible things done to them by uncivilized black men and even women, because. . .hell, you never know of dem white folks be Conservatives and need to be ass whipped. . .Hispanics too.I think that the more white people get killed, the more he likes it. . .serves them right for being white, right?

No, FrankHubris just listens to NPR, huffintonPost, and other left wing media sources, that try to paint the Tea Party and the republicans in general as racist.

They would rather report on once nut-case racist in a crowd of Tea Party members, than report on the several instances of black mobs attacking whites last month, and the on-going flash mobs robing stores.

It's easier to go for ad-hominem attacks than be honest and debate the issues.

The democrats have fed the poison of perpetual victimization to blacks in this country for generations. Look what it has gotten them.

Yes, that is fact. It is the perpetual sense of being victimized by the white folks that keeps MOST black people from improving themselves and their lot in life. . .and those of their children. With the exception of highly intelligent and talented black people like Clarence Thomas, Thomas Sowell, Herman Cain, Colin Powell, Condoleeza Rice, Walter E. Williams (professor of Economics at George Mason University) and so many other Conservative black men and women who "have left the plantation", as Herman Cain says, others who have no high regard for themselves and are "NOT comfortable in their own skin" are STILL on the plantation. . . .only NOW their massa is the U.S. government and all the Liberals and Socialists who mock their culture and talk about them in the faculty lounges and other places of academia, as though blacks were not people

"Why do certain groups have a right to riot? And why do others make excuses when livelihoods are ruined, millions of dollars are wasted, and innocents are hurt?

My opinion? Liberal racism.

A colleague said this to me the other day. "That police officer should be found guilty. But if he's not, they have every a right to riot."""when liberals say that "they" have a right to riot, what's the implication here? Is it that blacks are primitive, out-of-control Neanderthals? Those Jews, Chinese, and white males are expected to have self-control. No such expectations exist for designated victim groups like blacks and Latinos.""it's also a white feeling of superiority. Because you have to see yourself as on top to offer special treatment to those on bottom."http://www.americ...ism.html

"the Progressive Era was also a time of vicious, state-sponsored racism. In fact, from the standpoint of African-American history, the Progressive Era qualifies as arguably the single worst period since Emancipation.""budding progressives not only read exposés of capitalistic barons and attacks on laissez-faire economics by muckraking journalists, they also read racist tracts that drew on the latest anthropology, biology, psychology, sociology, eugenics, and medical science.""Woodrow Wilson, whose Progressive presidential legacy includes the Federal Reserve System, a federal loan program for farmers, and an eight-hour workday for railroad employees, segregated the federal bureaucracy in Washington, D.C. ""The Progressive movement unleashed, aided, and abetted some of the most destructive forces in 20th-century America."http://reason.com...ormers/1

Rygg2. . . .I'm afraid I have to agree with your assessment. White Liberals do display outwardly their inner feelings of White Supremacy over black people. That is why white Liberals feel it is within their right to use insulting words like the word FrankHerb$hit is fond of saying now. He has no regard for the shocked and hurt feelings of black person who may be reading his comments. And it isn't just for the shock value that he is saying this word and accusing innocent people here of having said it. He does it because he gets a kick out of it. Liberals who say it to blacks get a kick out of it too. They don't care whose feelings are hurt. They think"hey, I'm a big Liberal and I'm your friend. You help me and I'll help you. And FrankHerb$hit gets a lot of help with his race baiting. He got his shills waiting around to pounce on the unwary.

"At a March 1925 international birth control gathering in New York City, a speaker warned of the menace posed by the "black" and "yellow" peril. The man was not a Nazi or Klansman; he was Dr. S. Adolphus Knopf, a member of Margaret Sanger's American Birth Control League (ABCL), which along with other groups eventually became known as Planned Parenthood.""Sanger answered Gamble on Dec. 10. 1939, agreeing with the assessment. She wrote: "We do not want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten that idea out if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members." "{Sounds something like the climate gate emails...}http://www.blackg...ger.htmlSanger's opinions are expressed by many who post here when they advocate for govt control over procreation.

The word that FrankHerb$hit typed out farther up on this page has deep connotations for American blacks because their ancestors were called that frequently by their slavemasters. The slave master had gotten that word from the SPANISH word, Negro, which means the color black.But white slave owners were unable to pronounce the word Negro due to their accent, and the pronunciation became corrupted into the sound of the word which FrankHerb$hit is now using to describe black people. He is certainly a big Liberal alright. Now, if FrankHerb$hit is actually black himself and is coming into the threads to accuse innocent people in his little "GOTCHA" scam, then he truly IS a racist also, only he is racist against whites and Asians.

Ah yes. . . .Margaret Sanger, Liberal Progressive extraordinaire, who believed black people to be inferior and to best be eliminated through birth control. . . .most black people are unaware that Planned Parenthood is a front organization for removing the black race from the face of the Earth. . .or at least in the western hemisphere. Planned Parenthood encourages sexual promiscuity with the use of condoms and other means of birth control. . .it also encourages abortion. . .millions and millions of black babies have been aborted by their mothers through the Margaret Sanger clinic aka Planned Parenthood and affiliates all over the country. This is also advocated by N.O.W., the Feminist organization which has a majority of lesbians .

"The Progressive movement unleashed, aided, and abetted some of the most destructive forces in 20th-century America."

Blah-blah blah blah blah blah. You would not be a citizen of America if it wasn't for the PROGRESSIVE thinkers that of America. Our heritage is liberal. It's the liberals that did anything of significance, put a Man on the Moon, or a retirement insurance system, or even a health care model. All the conservatives do is slap each-other one butt and make backroom deals to give buddies free money at the tax payers expense.

omatumr says:"""Many are concerned today about implications of the National Defense Authorization Act bill that the US Senate is set to vote on today or later this week:""""Although our society is unstable, I hope politicians are not so foolish as use the National Defense Authorization Act to try to stay in power. """""

Oliver, if that's the bill that I think it is, and the Liberal Demorat majority in the Senate pass it and Obama signs it, won't that give Obama the right to ignore the Constitution and do whatever he wants with the country? If the bill passes, his power will be almost unlimited. I hope I am wrong and that is not the one I'm thinking of.

Our heritage is liberal. It's the liberals that did anything of significance, put a Man on the Moon,

The heritage of the US is classical liberal, not the 'liberal' term FDR usurped to differentiate his campaign from the 'progressive' Hoover, both socialists.I am sure most of the engineers that worked the Apollo program might be offended at being called 'liberal'.

"Professor West didn't just call for another war on poverty (the first war was fought by Lyndon B. Johnson), but went on to say that the push for more entitlements "is going to be fought in the streets." West showered the Occupy movement with praise for making people aware of the issue.

"It's a major question of priorities here. That's why the Occupy movement is so important because some of this is going to be fought in the streets. "http://www.realcl...facebook'Liberals' advocating violence and the current regime setting up the law to round up their opposition."The Obama Administration has abruptly sealed court records containing alarming details of how Mexican drug smugglers murdered a U.S. Border patrol agent with a gun connected to a failed federal experiment that allowed firearms to be smuggled into Mexico."http://www.weekly...seals-re

"All pretense of trying to win a majority of the white working class has been effectively jettisoned in favor of cementing a center-left coalition made up, on the one hand, of voters who have gotten ahead on the basis of educational attainment--professors, artists, designers, editors, human resources managers, lawyers, librarians, social workers, teachers and therapists--and a second, substantial constituency of lower-income voters who are disproportionately African-American and Hispanic.""When government gets so big and intrusive that it suppresses economic growth, it hurts the public sector too. The worst thing a parasite can do is to kill its host."http://online.wsj...pOpinion

Hah. . . .sealing the records is a clear indication that both Obama and Eric Holder are guilty of allowing the distribution of those weapons to Mexican drug cartels in which situation caused the Border Patrol guard to be murdered. Both of them should rot in jail for their damn stupidity and reckless endangerment of our security forces.

Yep. . .and blue collar workers, private sector businessmen and white collar employees are not included in those demographics of possible Obama supporters. And why would they want to vote for him anyway, unless they have some kind of "death" wish. Death of their jobs, that is.

You know for a fact R2; it all separated out in the 1960's with the civil rights movement and where "conservatives" (blue dog dems too) turned their backs on civil rights. Note the word "CIVIL" in the name of the movement. A movement of of such great importance. It is a JUST movement and so well logically founded that Dr. Martin Luther King was able to capture that logical and emotion basis of the constitution (that our for-fathers wrote) "That all men are created equal".

It was the Liberals like Johnson and the "War on Poverty" that was one of the few government programs that actually did improve peoples lives. It was people like Robert F. Kennedy the brought Liberal debate to blue dogs, and the conservatives so forcefully. The alliance that you hint of between Blacks and Liberals is because the Liberals recognize the rights to the people in the words "All men are created equal".

And to follow up, So it was the Liberals that supported the Civil Rights movement. Conservatives have so hated the civil rights laws that they have pushed back every chance they can get to over turn those laws. That is why you see the South now so solidly republican. As the the Democrats have pushed more liberal and included more Black Americans, the conservatives and Regan democrats (blue dog) push back has been strong.

Anyway the bottom line is oppression by conservative values lead up to the point where the oppressed raised up and found more value in the Liberalism than the failed logic of Conservatitism.

"Because remember guys, BLACKS ARE THE REAL RACISTS!" - ryggtard on behalf of all conservatives

Not all conservatives. Not all of us think it is proper to paint all members of any group with so wide a brush. People are individuals, and as such should be considered individually. Considering people individually takes effort.

And to follow up, So it was the Liberals that supported the Civil Rights movement. Conservatives have so hated the civil rights laws that they have pushed back every chance they can get to over turn those laws. That is why you see the South now so solidly republican. As the the Democrats have pushed more liberal and included more Black Americans, the conservatives and Regan democrats (blue dog) push back has been strong.

Anyway the bottom line is oppression by conservative values lead up to the point where the oppressed raised up and found more value in the Liberalism than the failed logic of Conservatitism.

If the south were so solidly anti-civil rights, why is there a major road or highway in nearly every large southern city named after Martin L. King and other civil rights leaders? With few remaining exceptions that old south you are remembering is from 50 years ago. Things have changed down here over the past few generations.

Hah. . . .sealing the records is a clear indication that both Obama and Eric Holder are guilty of allowing the distribution of those weapons to Mexican drug cartels in which situation caused the Border Patrol guard to be murdered. Both of them should rot in jail for their damn stupidity and reckless endangerment of our security forces.

Holder possibly as he was supposedly in charge, or at least should have been - it's his department. I highly doubt Obama had anything to do with this case until long after the fact. The records should not have been sealed though. That part stinks like a Nixon screw up, especially for a president who's campaign promises included complete transparency.

SteveL. . . please think first before you decide to believe that Rygg2 actually would say such as thing. Surely you must realize that the quote is either taken out of context OR someone likes to copy and paste and then add their own words to make it look like Rygg2 said it.FrankHerbtard likes to do that. . .it might be his work. You know already that there are people who go into these threads to cause trouble for anyone they do't like. Don't believe the lies and watch your own words too, or else they will twist them around.

Hah. . . .sealing the records is a clear indication that both Obama and Eric Holder are guilty of allowing the distribution of those weapons to Mexican drug cartels in which situation caused the Border Patrol guard to be murdered. Both of them should rot in jail for their damn stupidity and reckless endangerment of our security forces.

Do you think Reagen and Oliver North should share the same fate for Iran-Contra?

There was never any real Conservativism until Senator Barry Goldwater ran for the Presidency against JFK in 1959 - 60. JFK was never a Liberal. He was more of what would be called Conservative now even though he was a Democrat Party member. Back in those days, the Democrat Party was not infiltrated so much with Socialists, but actually more Moderates who had lived through WW2 and the Korean conflict, but were well aware that Russia had then become the new enemy. JFK's famous comment, "Ask not what your country can do for YOU, ask what you can do FOR your country". Which means that he did not really approve of a welfare state. The people cheered when he said that. The Communists hated him. . .and Lee Harvey Oswald was a Communist who had been married in Russia and believed in Communism. JFK, for all his womanizing, was nevertheless a great president. . .and most everyone loved him.

The Democrats in the southern states were called DIXIECRATS. The Dixiecrats opposed desegregation and attempted to block the civil rights movement, setting dogs on the blacks who wanted to go to school with whites. There were stories that many of the Dixiecrats rode at night wearing white hoods and sheets and did some lynching themselves. Republicans were never found to be involved with that kind of thing. They were too busy running businesses and to them, money is green no matter what color the customer was. After JFK was shot by Oswald, there were no more Conservatives in the office until Pourot (sp) and Reagan. Reagan was a famous Hollywood actor who had been a staunch Democrat but became a Republican later. He was a Conservative up to a point, but having come from acting, he wasn't that steeped in knowledge of Washington politics.

Those dixiecrats are now republicans.Learn about realigning elections, they may help your woefully inadequate knowledge of US political history.http://en.wikiped...election"Realigning elections typically separate Party Systems--with 1828, for example, separating the First Party System and the Second Party System in the U.S. ...An American example was the change in the voting patterns among white Southerners, who from the 1870s to 1962 had overwhelmingly voted at the national and state levels for Democratic (what was called the "Solid South"). A critical election came in 1964 with a shift at the presidential level to the Republican (GOP) presidential candidates. However there was a gradual shift toward the GOP at the state and local levels, as Aldrich (2000) and others have found. Democratic voting remained strong into the 1970s and only slowly shifted towards the GOP as state Republican organizations systematically broadened their base in the 1980's and 1990's."

He did have some excellent quotes, but some people say that Reagan only won because Jimmy Carter was so inept that they didn't want him back for a second term. Carter's foray into the Middle East mess was, unfortunately, doomed from the beginning. Though it SEEMED to be going fine brokering peace between Israel and Egypt was very difficult and it did not last. In any case, Conservatism has never been thoroughly implemented at any time and, even with GWBush, the militant Liberals were always the loudest.

goodnite SteveL, Rygg, Nou, blue. My g/f is at her job and I have some news to read.

The Dixiecrats are all dead, you fool FrankHerb$hit. . . .they were Democrats all their lives. Bull Connor was a Democrat as was Wallace and all the rest of those segregationists. Stop trying to fool people with your lies.

Adam Carolla encapsulates the idiot mentality of today's young liberals; He's talking about Vendicare, Kockevnik, howhot, and FrankHubris,... and the mindless occupy movement, and generally the entitlement society that is destroying this country.

the "War on Poverty" that was one of the few government programs that actually did improve peoples lives.

The 'war' on poverty has failed. The number of people in 'poverty' has not changed.The govt has no incentive to get people off the dole. Politicians have more people who are dependent upon them and the bureaucrats have more money and power.Subsidize more poor people and you get more poor people.

Obviously Hitler was all about Government Control and Social Engineering, quit counter to modern American conservatism. Not a matter of opinion.

Then how did the largest budget deficits by far happen under REPUBLICAN administrations? How are anti-abortion, Faux News, xtian dominionism, war escapades, abolishing unions, stripping entitlements and healthcare, patriot act, homeland security etc. not "social engineering?" It seems in fact you're trying to outdo Hitler.

He did have some excellent quotes, but some people say that Reagan only won because Jimmy Carter was so inept that they didn't want him back for a second term. Carter's foray into the Middle East mess was, unfortunately, doomed from the beginning.

President Carter was voted out because of his response to the Iranian revolution, the capture and hostage taking by the Iran revolutionaries, his passive response to the months that the Iranians dangled the hostages like toys in front a the press.

We got the hostages back without loss of life and a lot of backdoor raygun arms for hostages secret negotiations stuff.

The point I want to make though is Carter would have been re-elected if he had gotten the hostages back. Carter was liked. Had the military rescue mission Carter ordered been successful, politics would be quite different today. Instead it made Carter look weak and inept. Reagan Won and had his 8Yr. I hate Iran.

By whom?Carter WAS weak and inept and we see that now when he doesn't have to run for another office, his true, socialist nature is expressed.

"immy Carter betrayed the pro-US Shah of Iran, and sought to curry favor with the Ayatollah Khomeini (a) because he believed Khomeini and his Islamist-led revolution represented the winning side in the struggle to overthrow the modernizing monarch, and (b) because Carter bought the idea of using political Islam to weaken and isolate the Soviet Union--a strategy pushed by Carter's Polish-born, militantly anti-Russian, National Security Advisor, Zbignew Brzezinski.

Not so well known is that Carter also dumped a US ally because of wildly inaccurate--or deliberately falsified--US intelligence reports. The reports said Saudi Arabia was running out of oil. Brzezinski and other administration members persuaded the gullible President that a Khomeini regime would make up for declining Saudi oil sales to the US."http://chinac

R2 says "The 'war' on poverty has failed. The number of people in 'poverty' has not changed.". The poverty rates have increases as the middle class has been marginalized in today's economy. What we need now is another "war on poverty". I don't see anything like that happening, its more like "how many people can we make poor" coming from the tea party majority.

"Well, its now official: the war on poverty was a costly, tragic mistake. Ordinary people have suspected that for decades, of course, but we had to wait for the New York Times to decide this news was fit to printwhich it finally did on February 9, 1998. In a front-page story on poverty in rural Kentucky, Michael Janofsky detailed the failure of this effort in the one region that was supposed to be the centerpiece of reform. Federal and state agencies have plowed billions of dollars into Appalachia, he wrote, yet the area looks much as it did 30 years ago, when President Lyndon B. Johnson declared a war on poverty, taking special aim at the rural decay.1""The war on poverty was the worst thing that ever happened to Appalachia, Janofsky quotes one resident as saying. It gave people a way to get by without having to do any work. "http://www.thefre...-failed/

"Harringtons premise was that poverty is a purely economic problem: the needy simply lack the material resources to lead productive, happy lives. Supply these resources, the theory runs, and you will have solved the problem of poverty. The means are at hand, declared Harrington, to fulfill the age-old dream: poverty can now be abolished.2 This theme was repeated up and down the welfare establishment. Sargent Shriver, the administrations leading anti-poverty warrior, told Congress that the nation had both the resources and the know-how to eliminate grinding poverty in the United States. President Lyndon Johnson echoed the claim. For the first time in our history, he declared, it is possible to conquer poverty.""Mary Richmond, one of the founders of American social work, condemned public relief in no uncertain terms: The most experienced charity workers regard it as a source of demoralization both to the poor and the charitable."http://www.thefre...ured/why

"Finally, the nineteenth-century experts argued, handouts were self-defeating. People became dependent on them, and new recipients were attracted to them. So this type of aid could never reduce the size of the needy population. With handouts, the more you gave, the more you had to give.The correct way to help the needy, they said, was to expect something of recipients in return for what was given them. Instead of giving poor people what they needed, the charity leaders organized programs that enabled the needy to supply their own wants. They werent given money, but were counseled to find employment; they werent given apartments, but were rented, at cost, healthy dwellings managed by charities; they werent given food, but learned to grow their own food at garden clubs developed for that purpose. "http://www.thefre...-failed/

"The great English charity leader Octavia Hill, who worked all her life among the poor, summed up the nineteenth-century social workers position on handouts: I proclaim that I myself have no belief whatever in the poor being one atom richer or better for the alms that reach them, that they are very distinctly worse, and that I give literally no such alms myself.10"Octavia Hill, The Befriending Leader: Social Assistance without Dependency, ed. James L. Payne (Sandpoint, Idaho: Lytton Publishing Co., 1997), p. 57.http://www.thefre...-failed/See what happens in Europe when welfare meets the real world, when they run out of OPM?

R2, the Shaw of Iran was a puppet and was overthrown. Yeah, there was a long period of US influence or interference with Iran processes but Iran had it's own ideas. They wanted a theocracy, and they got one. Your points are noted, but don't forget, it was the Iranians that designed there system. It has elections but it has a religious branch that is not subserviant to the people. It's a nasty form of government IMHO.

Carter also had the energy crisis to deal with too, inflation was horrible, gold spiked from something like 35$/Oz to nearly $300. But housing was good, we were out of Vietnam, Jobs where good. The START talks where going... Japan was on the uptick with the thier smaller imports like the Datsun's and Hondas.

Anyway the point being if not for Iran, it would have been substantially different. Maybe the global energy crisis (CO2 AGW issue) would have been averted.

Look R2, there is and alway will be a class of people that will need welfare. Through no fault of their own there will always be some that need assistance, the social services, and housing, and the food subsidies. You know if you poke back to the 1850's capitalism didn't provide anything and created vast slums in urban areas. Compared to what they had, the war on poverty was a huge success to the Appalachian poor and urban poor too. Education was major part of that effort.

Hah. . . .sealing the records is a clear indication that both Obama and Eric Holder are guilty of allowing the distribution of those weapons to Mexican drug cartels in which situation caused the Border Patrol guard to be murdered. Both of them should rot in jail for their damn stupidity and reckless endangerment of our security forces.

Holder possibly as he was supposedly in charge, or at least should have been - it's his department. I highly doubt Obama had anything to do with this case until long after the fact. The records should not have been sealed though. That part stinks like a Nixon screw up, especially for a president who's campaign promises included complete transparency.

SteveL. . .there has never been transparency in the Obama regime and never was meant to be. It was all lies to garner support from all the Liberal "useful idiots" so he could get their votes so he could get elected President. But some are disillusioned now. Hope & change. . .hahahaha

rygg2 says: ""Not so well known is that Carter also dumped a US ally because of wildly inaccurate--or deliberately falsified--US intelligence reports. The reports said Saudi Arabia was running out of oil. Brzezinski and other administration members persuaded the gullible President that a Khomeini regime would make up for declining Saudi oil sales to the US."http://chinac""

Good find. . .I had forgotten about that incident. Jimmy Carter was a clown and still is. He doesn't broker peace when he goes to places like North Korea, but is still trying to establish a legacy for himself, and only causing more trouble by flirting with the enemy because he is no longer President and can't forgive that.

Socialists can't respect the rights of the individual because they must violate individual rights to redistribute wealth. Kochevnik says:

And what 'right' is that exactly, ryggesogn2? The right to hoard and squander? Where is that in the Bill of Rights? Sorry to break this to you but "redistributing wealth" is called economics.

The "right to hoard and squander". . .what exactly does it MEAN anyway? If a person has a 20 dollar bill in his wallet and doesn't want to or need to spend it, is that hoarding? And if that same person decides that he wants to buy himself a nice dinner and decides to spend that 20 bucks, is he squandering that money?In either case, if that money is HIS and he didn't steal it, then it is his to do with as he pleases. If some thug goes up to him and robs him of that 20 dollars, isn't that theft? So, where is the difference between those who want to steal money from a rich guy whose money belongs in his own pocket, and the thug who robs the

guy with the 20 dollars? No difference really. . . .except for the amount of money. But most people would think that it's terrible what happened to the guy with the $20, but that justice is served if the Liberals remove a million dollars from a rich man's pocket.

Authors of the study, which was funded by the National Science Foundation and published online this week in the journal Science, say that GLOBAL WARMING IS REAL and that increases in atmospheric CO2 will have SERIOUS IMPACTS.

It's amazing how the right wing will go so off topic to cover up their stupid, ignorant, short sighted, overly contrived, oppressive and destructive concepts on global warming at the expense of the people.

It's the old double standard at work. To Liberals, one form of theft is reprehensible, but another form of theft is deserved by the rich because they're "hoarding" or "squandering", UNLESS the rich guy is a Liberal. Senator John Kerry lives in Massachusetts and is very rich through his wife, the Heinz 57 heiress. He goes out to buy a great big yacht and decides that he wants to avoid paying the sales taxes on it, so he parks the yacht at a marina in, I think, New Hampshire, a state with no sales tax. Is there a big hue and cry over the fact that he didn't pay his fair share of taxes, from the Liberals? Of course not. HE IS a Liberal, so he is exempt from the scrutiny of other Liberals. The corruption knows no bounds in Liberal circles. They do protect their own. . .no matter how corrupt. Liberalism is like a big corporation with many different products. Entitlements, tax & spend, bigger government, all from the same assembly line.

""It's amazing how the right wing will go so off topic to cover up their stupid, ignorant, short sighted, overly contrived, oppressive and destructive concepts on global warming at the expense of the people.""

Idiot Liberal Socialists come into this thread spouting their hatred of Conservatives ad nauseum and continually assail those they disagree with politically, and never bother to think about the REAL intention of this thread. Then all of a sudden, he ups and gets huffy about what Conservatives are saying back in answer to the Liberal idiotic lies spouted in here.My My My. . . .nobody knows da trouble ah seen. . .LOL

Old saying goes, "buy a man a fish and he will eat for one day, but buy a man a fishing pole and he can go catch fish himself for his dinner. The "war on poverty" was a disaster because for decades, big money was poured into education and entitlement programs for the poor, year after year. But the poor pissed it all away. . .many of the them didn't want to work no way, no how. They got subsidized housing in projects, apartments in tall buildings built to house the poor, and what did they do? That's right, they TRASHED the apartments, ripped out fixtures, broke plumbing deliberately, had crack parties, mainlined with morphine and heroin, the "kids" formed gangs and went around terrorizing whole neighborhoods, their own as well as white suburbia. All that taxpayer money given to provide free education and very few actually graduated and went on to college. Lots of white poor too. Everybody gets ready for their welfare check, then runs to buy a bottle of booze or six pack.

That's what welfare entitlement does to people and very few ever rise above it. The Liberals/Socialists LOVE that, especially the WHITE Liberals, so they can look down their noses and purse their lips at some poor little black kid or poor little white trailer trash and sniff and say. . .awww, now what can we do for these little ragamuffins. They need MORE entitlements. Let's get the money off the rich Republican Wall Street pigs, but don't touch the rich Liberals, the ones who give us that money in support of our Democrat Party so we can be reelected again and again. And don't touch our favorite corporations, like GE and solar companies, we need more tax money to pour into the "green" corporations to save the planet from the phoney global warming. The suckers still don't understand climate cycles is mother nature at work. ssshhhhhh. . .don't tell them nuttin.

Let's see now. . .unemployment rate under GWBush. . . . 4.7 - 5% unemployment rate under Socialist Obama OMG 9%Why. . .that's a jump of about 5% since Obama was elected President within the last 3 years. Maybe he can enlarge that even HIGHER if he gets another 4 years by screwing the private sector so that they can't afford to operate in the U.S. and keep hiring workers. Plenty of good workers overseas. Red China, Korea and Mexico wants their business, while the Obama regime wants a nice old revolution by the great unwashed masses who will gladly vote for him if he will only pay off their student loans and give them free health care. . . .and a house.Ain't America great?

deepsand. . . .since you seem to be testing my knowledge of climate change, I will fill you in on some things. Climate change has been happening since the Earth's formation and always will.Radiative forcing has been variable for billions of years also. The heat occurring is only because the Earth is bombarded on a daily basis with radiation from the Sun (sunlight) and from cosmic rays from outerspace. If that didn't happen, the Earth would be frozen like Pluto, assuming Pluto is frozen. But there are also other forces WITHIN the Earth which contribute to warming, such as volcanic action as in island building. . . .and even jellyfish and other sea creatures can cause oceans to warm with their body heat and the decaying of their bodies give off CO2

The claim that there is so much buildup of CO2 in the atmosphere that is caused by man is also a bunch of hooey. The Earth is constantly cleansing itself and the sunlight (heat) bounces right back into outer space, depending on which type of terrain it is hitting. . .snow and ice reflect the heat and sunlight away from the Earth, while jungles absorb it more and also absorbs the CO2. Deserts reflect it to some degree but absorb the heat more because of the nature of sand. It gets hot in the day time and cold at night. Surely you must know Earth science, so why ask ME?

The type of pollution I have bad vibes about is the mixing of various substances by scientists to kill off insects because of the popular feeling that hornets are bad for people, for instance. So these scientists mix up a horrible toxic brew, and that stuff eventually gets into a drinking water supply and kills nice little sea otters and whales in the oceans. I strongly object to insecticides and prefer to let nature take her sweet time and eliminate bad bugs with the help of good bugs.Capeeesh?

Mother nature makes all sorts of semitransparent beings. I found a semitransparent hornets nest 'round the back of mah propartay. One damn near stung me! Wouldn't have seen it without my rose-tinted glasses. Mah lady friend got them for me. She is such a sweetay pie.

Point is why do democrats want to make me stick my dong in these semitransparent hornet's nests? I hear all these voices screaming at me to do it.

The foil isn't working anymore. The democrats must be augmenting their signal. I have begun the process of crystallizing the semitransparent bees (which is admittedly hard to do as they are hard to see!) so I may construct a faraday cage from them that will protect me from the voices telling me to stick my dong in all manner of dangerous objects.

I digress though. When Obama the Hun crosses the Rubicon into America certainly we will all be at the mercy of communist islamofascism!

The other thing is that there is HEAT under the Earth's crust coming up from the mantle(s). The magma creates tunnels and tries to get out and as it advances upwards, the heat warms the crust and releases CO2 and other gases. The gases have to go SOMEwhere. Why, even UNDER the polar ice caps could be hot volcanoes lurking that are releasing heat and CO2 slowly. If that didn't happen. . . .we could have a kabloooey moment in many parts of the world. Have you ever seen a kettle full of H2O start to boil with a flame underneath it? it's the same principle. The water boils, the gases are released and they jump out at you as steam. Steam is hot. That steam from the kettle also creates a wind, which circulates around the room and fogs up everything made of glass and other materiel. Surely you've seen that too. You go out to your backyard. You cut the grass. Every blade that you killed is about to let off CO2. Do you stop cutting the grass? I don''t think so.

FrankHerb$hithead aka Pirouline, you just HATE to be proven wrong and be called out on it. . .we all know that about you. You're a pseudo-intellectual wannabee with a lot of different aliases on Physorg. You are a pathetic unfunny clown race-baiter. We all know by now that you would love for me to sit on your face, but wouldn't lower myself to your ugly level. You are ugly and your mother despises you. You are the poster-boy for pro-abortion and a warning to all future mothers of what they might bring into the world if they don't abort something like you quickly.

My momma done tried abortin me but thankfullalee she got stung by a semitransparent moon moth and got cured of her libruls. She had me and we were raisin' our own little gaggle together within' a few short years. That momma a mine sure knows how to plant one on ya!

My momma says not to worry 'bout that mean old FartHerbsmoker$hitheadfartbutt. She's gonna make me forget all 'bout him tonight! Woo hoo!

Now where is your butt-buddy, Howhot$hit? Sitting on your face, no doubt. . .LOLDid she come out of the Mothership with screwy Louie and his aliens already? Thought they might have taken a ride in the Mothership all around the universe by now. :)

FrankHerb$hithead and Howhot$hit are just jealous my momma won't sit on their faces so they gotsa sit on eachothers! Maybe if they are real nice and renounce their stupid liberal ways I'll let them play with momma. Only if I get to watch though!

The other thing is that there is HEAT under the Earth's crust coming up from the mantle(s).

I watched a special on Antarctic ice rivers and how they flow to the sea. The reason these rivers flow is a thin layer of water between the ice and the land. I has been suggested heat from 'global warming' has finally reached the ground through thousands of feet of ice.A better explanation is geologic activity warming from below. Ice is a great insulator. Several lakes lie below the ice and Antarctica does have volcanoes.

Look R2, there is and alway will be a class of people that will need welfare. Through no fault of their own there will always be some that need assistance, the social services, and housing, and the food subsidies. You know if you poke back to the 1850's capitalism didn't provide anything and created vast slums in urban areas. Compared to what they had, the war on poverty was a huge success to the Appalachian poor and urban poor too. Education was major part of that effort.

It help make the Modern world we know.

Welfare certainly has created the nanny states around the world. Why do 'liberals' have so much disrespect for people? Millions of physically disabled people lead productive lives, with no welfare, millions of able bodied are satisfied living off the wealth of others. I guess I can understand why 'liberals' detest such slackers, but why do they subsidize them? They need useful idiots to build a political constituency.

"Over the past few decades, several European nations, like Germany and the Netherlands, have played by the rules and practiced good governance. They have lived within their means, undertaken painful reforms, enhanced their competitiveness and reinforced good values. Now they are being brutally browbeaten for not wanting to bail out nations like Greece, Italy and Spain, which did not do these things, which instead borrowed huge amounts of money that they are choosing not to repay. "http://www.nytime...tml?_r=1

deepsand. . . .since you seem to be testing my knowledge of climate change, I will fill you in on some things. Climate change has been happening since the Earth's formation and always will.Radiative forcing has been variable for billions of years also. The heat occurring is only because the Earth is bombarded on a daily basis with radiation from the Sun (sunlight) and from cosmic rays from outerspace. If that didn't happen, the Earth would be frozen like Pluto, assuming Pluto is frozen. But there are also other forces WITHIN the Earth which contribute to warming, such as volcanic action as in island building. . . .and even jellyfish and other sea creatures can cause oceans to warm with their body heat and the decaying of their bodies give off CO2

Non-responsive and evasive. . . .oh, right. . .I suppose I'm not even allowed to sleep and then later on have breakfast and go out to feed my livestock? I have to answer your question immediately or you're going to have a tantrum? LOL

OK. . .as I've already mentioned in many other threads in Physorg, I am NOT a scientist. I am, however, on a "learning curve", as my profile mentions and am here to learn all I can about many types of scientific research that I find interesting. Now, if YOU are a scientist, why don't you tell us what YOU know, eh? You're the expert here, not me. I'm just a student and I have several teachers who are very knowledgeable, like Rygg and Nou who don't mind explaining the science, but are not smug or deliberately full of vitriol and hate.I hope that answers your question, and I STILL believe that climate change is due to thermal conditions underground through volcanic action.

The other thing is that there is HEAT under the Earth's crust coming up from the mantle(s).

I watched a special on Antarctic ice rivers and how they flow to the sea. The reason these rivers flow is a thin layer of water between the ice and the land. It has been suggested heat from 'global warming' has finally reached the ground through thousands of feet of ice.A better explanation is geologic activity warming from below. Ice is a great insulator. Several lakes lie below the ice and Antarctica does have volcanoes.

Warming from below. . .exactly my sentiments, The heat and gases have to go somewhere to escape from the mantles, so it melts ice that happen to be above and in the way. As the ice melts further, it slides more easily and eventually slides into a body of water, breaks off big chunks of ice and the nitwits see that and claim that climate change is because of humans existing and driving cars.

Richard Brooks is one of the very few bloggers from the New York Times who fully use their abilities of sanity and reason in reporting the truth. I'm surprised Sulzburger (sp?) hasn't gotten rid of him yet in order to have a full complement of Liberal/Socialists reporting the news and commentaries. I fully agree with Brooks on the causes and ramifications of the Socialist countries of Europe and their dependence on the frugality and generosity of the Germans. I think Germany should "hoard" their own wealth, don't you? But if they don't bail out the Romance language countries, the Germans are likely to be "occupied" and their wealth forcibly removed from their pockets, so to speak, from those who demand entitlements and to continue their "welfare state" idiocy. It's always the old story of the ant and the grasshopper, isn't it. LOLI would think it was funny if it wasn't so serious.

Non-responsive and evasive. . . .oh, right. . .I suppose I'm not even allowed to sleep and then later on have breakfast and go out to feed my livestock? I have to answer your question immediately or you're going to have a tantrum? LOL

OK. . .as I've already mentioned in many other threads in Physorg, I am NOT a scientist.

Well, Mr. Potty Mouth, if you don't understand the Physics, then you are both unqualified to make any assertions re. the subject at hand or to judge the verity of the clap trap that you cite as support of your position.

In short, you know nothing of the matter, and just suck up what you want to hear because it better comports with your policy positions.

OK. . .as I've already mentioned in many other threads in Physorg, I am NOT a scientist. I am, however, on a "learning curve", as my profile mentions and am here to learn all I can about many types of scientific research that I find interesting. Now, if YOU are a scientist, why don't you tell us what YOU know, eh? You're the expert here, not me. I'm just a student and I have several teachers who are very knowledgeable, like Rygg and Nou who don't mind explaining the science, ... .

ROTFLMAO.

You're taking Physics lessons from a pair of charlatans? That's like asking the tobacco industry if smoking is bad for your health. :rolleyes:

I think that deepsand (and certain others) believe Physorg to be their exclusive domain and older retired people have no business trying to learn the sciences by commenting and asking questions in threads as I've been doing. In THIS particular thread, while the topic was climate change, the topic was suddenly changed to a political theme with Vendi and others spouting their hatred of Conservatives and Conservatism, while glorifying Liberalism/Socialism and the downfall of the United States. Many people aren't aware of the historical truth of my country, the USA and it so happens that rygg2 is well versed in our history as well. It is obvious that several people in this thread had decided to change the topic to politics and ideology in the first place, but when we began explaining our country's history, the Liberals here objected to it. It's strange that a public forum has been convoluted in this way by Liberals. Strange indeed.

And BTW, I DO speak with a Southern drawl and what is referred to as ebonics. Ebonics is merely a form of colloquialism and not exclusive only to a minority in the U.S. as they would have people believe. The explanation of how the "dialect" came to be is further up in this thread. My Sicilian family came to the U.S. when I was very young and I grew up in the South, although I also type in the King's English, as you can see. One could say that Australians have their own brand of 'ebonics" also, using words that are not really part of the English language, but it just makes them all the more colorful and interesting. I hope this explanation is sufficient for those who wanted to know.

@purefruit, You are so full of $hit, "But the poor pissed it all away". Actually they don't. The poor actually pay taxes; Lots and lots of taxes. The hard working poor really do a pretty good job given what they are paid. The conservative point of view is that there are 10:1 more poor than rich so taxing the poor makes up the difference. Conservatives just live in la-la land when it comes to real economic reality.

I think that deepsand (and certain others) believe Physorg to be their exclusive domain and older retired people have no business trying to learn the sciences by commenting ...

You don't learn Science by "commenting" on subjects that you've no understanding of, or of asking questions of those who seemingly share your policy convictions, while rejecting statements made by those who do not share such convictions, but by engaging in dispassionate study.

Like your "conservative" brethren here, you seek only that which supports your desired conclusions.

Also Greece, Italy, the EU, California, Detroit, ....."But sorry, theres no way Europe can come up with a fix that avoids printing money. Thats the only way to make good on the debts run up by these welfare states.

There will be lots of gyrations along the way, as the Germans come to realize that such a massive bailout is the only way to keep the likes of Italy and Spain from default which would lead to a worldwide banking crisis and to the political instability they fear.

The bigger problem for the Europeans is what comes next after they finish running the printing press and papering over the debts of the continents basket-case economies. If these countries are to avoid Third-World economic status, theyll have to finally rein in their out-of-control welfare states. And that will be the most bitter pill for the Europeans to swallow.

"At least our banks troubled investments were tied to real estate, which may rebound once our economy improves. Their banks are holding debt tied to some of the worlds least productive, no-growth countries.

Why so underproductive? Most of the evidence points to the failure of the European welfare state.

Again, the Europeans loved to lecture Americans on how government-run health-care and cradle-to-grave entitlements provided such safety and comfort for the masses. People supposedly didnt mind paying higher taxes because it enhanced their standard of living.

Until, of course, it didnt enhance anything and Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal face the collapse of their safety nets because they cant borrow to pay for them anymore, even as unemployment is rampant. (Meanwhile, France is not far behind.)"

"Privately, business people over there will concede that the vicious web of taxes and regulations makes it brutally hard for entrepreneurs to start businesses and near-impossible for economies to grow fast enough to pay for those lavish entitlements.

You may be tempted to take some delight in Europes misfortunes as they basically copy our bailout methodology of running the printing press to paper over the problems. But New Yorkers schadenfreude shouldnt last.

Because our city has adopted the European welfare-state model with the same disastrous results: high taxes, high unemployment and businesses leaving for somewhere else. Ironically, its only taxes from Wall Streets one percent that keeps the city going."

"European states were constructed in a top-down manner "so as to insulate almost entirely the political class from populist pressures." As a result, the establishment has "come to regard the electorate as children.""http://www.daniel...rk-steynWritten five years ago.Has any IPCC proclamation from 5 years ago come to pass?

It is the AGWite that rejects the scientific process by using coercion to stifle any opposing theory and data. Emails by the AGWite prophets agree they are spinning their data and ATTACKING those who don't agree.Hottie, California and Detroit economies are failing because of 'liberal' government.

"There have been a number of dishonest presentations of model results by individual authors and by IPCC [the UNs Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change], one scientist complained, also arguing that calculating the climates sensitivity to increased levels of carbon dioxide cannot even be done using present-day data. Another wrote, I also think the science is being manipulated to put a political spin on it which for all our sakes might not be too clever in the long run. Or, as another doubter put it, What if climate change appears to be just mainly a multi-decadal natural fluctuation? Theyll kill us probably""Theres nothing wrong with uncertainty in science. Whats wrong is denying it exists."http://www.theglo...2255673/"Science is Settled" proclamation denies the existence of uncertainty. This is not science.

@purefruit, You are so full of $hit, "But the poor pissed it all away". Actually they don't. The poor actually pay taxes; Lots and lots of taxes. The hard working poor really do a pretty good job given what they are paid. The conservative point of view is that there are 10:1 more poor than rich so taxing the poor makes up the difference. Conservatives just live in la-la land when it comes to real economic reality.

Actually, many of the poor DO piss it all away. . . .and that's a fact. They piss it away on booze, illegal drugs, and they get morbidly obese by buying junk food and other unhealthy $hit when they're not smoking crack. The news is full of the $hit that these people do. Rich white kids do that also, but they have plenty of money and don't take off taxpayers to pay for their lifestyle. It would be fine if none of that crap was going on in poor families. But it is happening and they're coming back for mo money mo money mo money. LOL I KNOW some of them .

They're not worth the sperm that came out of their daddys. Useless pieces of $hit. Only thing they're good for is to vote for the Democrats so they can keep getting their welfare checks each month. Then they got the nerve to complain that life has passed them. . .and life is so unfair. . . and them rich folks got no right to have all that money. What those so-called "poor" folks need a good kick in the azz to get them out the door and get a job when they were young. But their mama was probably on the dole all her life too. So it's like they got a cancer that can't be cured, even with free education and health care. . .they still don't want to work.

The working poor are getting the $hitty end of the stick because they are most likely to lose their job if the industry they work for shuts down because they can't afford to pay all the taxes and benefits they are required to pay workers by the gov't. And they aren't even allowed to grow their business without being taxed some more. It's a vicious circle all around. And people like Howhot and her/his teary eyes and wringing of hands over those po po welfare queens can't get enough sucker money from taxpayers to support 15 brats. She get knocked up by 3 different men and nebah been married and only 37. There's a lot of stories like that all over the country. Boy, these people got plenty of nerve being on welfare generation after generation

Yep and anybody who dares to say the truth about what's really going on. . . .all the $hit that's fit to print is the one with a lot of nerve for saying the truth. People like you gonna get your comeuppance someday and it's gonna be ugly once the Communists take over.Instead of encouraging the poor to help themselves and get jobs, you prefer to cry your tears and wring your hands and say life is so unfair to them poor people. YOU are a BIIIIG PART OF THE PROBLEM. You're keeping them down on the plantation just like your Liberal gods in Washington want you to do. And wait till you see the Communists put them in boxcars and ship them out. . . .and you will have helped it to happen. . .Congratulations sucka

And no, the WELFARE poor DO NOT pay income taxes at all. The WORKING poor only pay as much tax as the wages they earn call for when added up. Plus they get food stamps depending on their yearly earnings.

The denialists can't refute the Science, so they evade by misdirection, in which they reveal their policy positions to be the reason for their being in denial.

They are the ultimate "Me-firsters."

So what have YOU done lately to mitigate AGW, deepsand, eh? Have you stopped driving your car or ride in someone else's car? Did you stop taking plane trips? How about buses and other vehicles? You know they all run on gasoline and require OIL for lubrication? Are you getting rid of your electricity use if your electric company uses coal, gas, or oil for fuel? PLEASE TELL US. YOU TOO, Howhot. . .what have you two done to save the Earth, eh? Don't be shy now, tell us the truth. I'll bet you haven't done a damn thing about it. You'all just like to yammer and vitch and complain about OTHER people, that's all.

So what have YOU done lately to mitigate AGW, deepsand, eh? Have you stopped driving your car or ride in someone else's car? Did you stop taking plane trips? How about buses and other vehicles? You know they all run on gasoline and require OIL for lubrication? Are you getting rid of your electricity use if your electric company uses coal, gas, or oil for fuel? PLEASE TELL US. YOU TOO, Howhot. . .what have you two done to save the Earth, eh? Don't be shy now, tell us the truth. I'll bet you haven't done a damn thing about it. You'all just like to yammer and vitch and complain about OTHER people, that's all.

Ah-ha; it's sophistry that you are studying!

Managing to get several fallacies crammed into one steaming heap must make you feel really proud, I'll bet. :lol:

Ah-HAAA. . . .deepsand be AVOIDING my questions about what he's doing to mitigate AGW. He don't wanna answer it because he not doing anything about it. . .LOLdeepsand be all talk and no action. . . .yowza yowza yowza. . . .:))

Oh yah. . .the U.S. was supposed to be railroaded into joining Kyoto and paying through the nose while reducing all CO2 emissions. . . .BUT and that's a BIG BUT. . . .the ChiComms in Red China were NOT required to reduce their emissions or pay down their own debts on their carbon footprint. ANOTHER DOUBLE STANDARD thought up by the Progressives/Liberals/Haters of America that didn't come to fruition.

In the meantime, ex vice president and big time polluter Al Gore still flies everywhere by private jet plane while spouting how Americans and other hoomans are contributing to AGW, and thousands are flying by plane to Durban, South Africa to attend the AGW rally to talk about those damn CO2 emissions from people driving cars. They will then fly back home BY PLANE and feel so good about their contribution to anti-AGW while driving their own cars or being driven in their limousines.Yup. . . .phony baloney plastic banana good time rock n rollers, as a famous talk show host would say. . .LOL

Ah-HAAA. . . .deepsand be AVOIDING my questions about what he's doing to mitigate AGW. He don't wanna answer it because he not doing anything about it. . .LOLdeepsand be all talk and no action. . . .yowza yowza yowza. . . .:))

ROTFLMAO

You're complaining about someone not falling for your misdirection by way of a red herring, so as to allow you to evade the fact that you are clueless as to the Science here involved?

Sandy has said nothing about how the forcing factors are determined and the their significant uncertainties.So much uncertainty in fact that the UK and the US have plans to launch calibrated, traceable IR radiometers to reduced the significant uncertainty that exists in the data."TRUTHS provides 'benchmark' measurements of key 'radiative forcing feedbacks' such as clouds and albedo (in the solar reflective spectral domain) with uncertainties small enough that future change, from a background of natural variability can be detected.""The need for such a mission has been specifically highlighted by the United Nations GCOS (Global Climate Observing System), WMO GSICS (Global Satellite Inter-Calibration System) committees and Committee on Earth Observation (CEOS), culminating in the call for a specific mission by the US Academy of sciences called CLARREO "http://www.npl.co.uk/TRUTHS

Then Sandy doesn't know.AGWites may live in a faith based world. I don't and I accept nothing from 'progressive' AGWites on faith.

I don't think deepsand knows the science either. Probably copies and pastes without giving source links, just like FrankHerbert$heiss does. FrankHerb$heiss NEEDS his other user names to harass and provoke. He also cannot comprehend easy original paragraphs from other people and ALWAYS misquotes the others' comments. He thinks that nobody is going to scroll up and read the original comment and find out for themselves. He would make a good Commissar who lies to the people and doesn't know the science either.I have ADMITTED I am not a scientist, and yet deepsand continuously CHALLENGES me to see what I know about AGW That smug attitude shows that deepsand is NOT a scientist at all and is only pretending to be. How pathetic.

So purefruit is a Southerner in the state of Eboneya yaall. That explains many thing.

Nope. . .pwufu ain't no Southerner. Pwufu is Sicilian who just happened to be raised in the South and likes it there. Pwufu spent 32 years on the job in the North and saw how Liberals moved out as quick as possible when blacks moved into their neighborhood. "WHITE FLIGHT" was, and is, prevalent with dem well-off White Liberals/Socialists cuz dey don' wanna live wif dose po' blacks in dey neighborhood. . . .so dey RUN fast as they can. . .why dey runs all over the place to get away from dem black folks. But they be good at talking about how they wanna help them po' black folks and make sure dem black kids get a good education and food, housing and clothing.Meanwhile, dem babydaddys don' wanna work and dem babymamas keep open dey legs to get mo babies and wait for dem welfare checks and be on crack cocaine.

And dem White Liberals/Socialists say to each other, Oh those poor people are starving to death. Let us make sure their welfare checks keep coming and get that money from the rich people and give it ALL to the poor people because the poor people are BETTER than any white folks, especially poor minorities because they never had the same opportunities and be educated like the white kids. FREE education and food stamps is not enough for minorities and other poor. We have to have a REVOLUTION and get rid of those horrible rich Wall Street people. . . .oh, but NOT if they're Liberals like us. The Liberal rich can kEEP their wealth. They're OK.

Rygg2. . . .I've seen it all while I was up North in New York, Connecticut and other northern states. . . .Michigan was just as bad. And now they have problems with gangs of minority youth running into convenience stores and department stores, stealing everything they can grab and running out without paying for anything. The owners of the convenience stores are usually Pakistanis or Indians or Asians and they are helpless to do anything about it. Minority gangs have been roaming around beating up white people and usually getting away with it, and laughing about it. I say their PARENTS should go to jail for not disciplining their own kids, AND the Liberal politicians should go to jail too for allowing it to happen.

It is also interesting how fast the 'liberals' run away from the North East's high taxes to buy larger houses in FL, SC, NC, AL, etc.

Yeah. . .them Liberals don't want to pay big State taxes, so they will buy properties in states that have no State taxes. But California and New York have HUGE state taxes. It's amazing that California hasn't emptied out already to Florida. New York City is emptying out little by little, but too many have very good paying jobs there, so they will stay for the duration.When all the Conservative wealthy people leave, NY will become a total slum and Mayor Bloomberg will be crying when there is no longer enough revenue to support the infrastructure and the Wall Street Occupiers. The WSO will be back in the Spring, I hear. I'm sure they will do a lot more defecating and pissing in the streets. Liberals like that and makes them FEEL more sympathy for the OccupyWallStret rabble.

"But late last week Mayor Bloomberg was channelling these columns when he said that raising taxes on high earners could drive them from the city. "One percent of the households that file in this city pay something like 50% of the taxes," explained the Mayor. "In the city, that's something like 40,000 people. If a handful left, any raise would make it revenue neutral. The question is what's fair. If 1% are paying 50% of the taxes, you want to make it even more?""http://online.wsj...949.html

That Mayor Bloomberg is something else. Big Liberal worried now about the rich of Wall Street running and the city emptying out and leaving only the poor on welfare checks to keep the city infrastructure going and virtually NO revenue coming into the city's coffers. Oh BTW, I was responding to another person's questions/comment in reference to Capitalism, and along comes FrankHerbertbert to make his accusations about no need for morality. It figures he doesn't like morality. It offends him and he has no use for morality. Look at the $hit he talks about in the threads. Typical retarded Liberal.

deepsand. . .first off, I do apologize for calling you deep$hit.. .that may or may not have been called for. . .but I guess it was over the top. However, FrankaHerbert is a $hithead and I DON't apologize for that. He is FrankHerb$hit forever and always shows his true colors in every thread that he follows me and others into, to spread his idiocy to act the bigshot.If you don't like my calling FrankHerb$hit FrankHerb$hit, then we have nothing further to discuss about any topic.

I understand the weather, deepsand. I understand hot days and nights and cold days and nights. I understand wind and hurricanes and rainstorms and halestorms. I don't have knowledge of the equations, algorithms, and all the scientific terminology that you and others have, but that's why I'm here. . . .to learn. I ask questions and I expect a response to be civil and courteous from someone who is knowledgeable. So far, any comments from people like FrankHerb$hit has been of a nasty and combative attitude. He tells lies about me and other people and then turns it around to make people think that I was the one doing it. He is like a schoolyard bully who can't stand to see anyone enjoying themselves and having a good discussion. So choose the side you prefer, deepsand, me or him.

from the Wall Street Journal"""But late last week Mayor Bloomberg was channelling these columns when he said that raising taxes on high earners could drive them from the city. "One percent of the households that file in this city pay something like 50% of the taxes," explained the Mayor. "In the city, that's something like 40,000 people. If a handful left, any raise would make it revenue neutral. The question is what's fair. If 1% are paying 50% of the taxes, you want to make it even more?""""OMG. . . .Mayor Bloomberg has done a 180 about face from his previous opinions on taxing te rich and upper middle class. Must be the world is coming to an end for that to happen. LOL

deepsand, I don't know what kind of personal vendetta you have toward Rygg2, and I don't really care. I try to treat everyone equally, except for those who are complete azzholes like FrankHerb$hit and Howhot$hit. Vendicarrion has his moments too. Sometimes OK, most times he be another azzhole too.If you're against Rygg2 just because of science, that's no good reason for hate or dislike. I'm sorry, but I don't buy such behavior.

If you are genuinely interested in Science, you'll need to first put aside all policy considerations.

That is NOT what AGWites have done.So Mann, et al, are NOT really interested in science?How about Paul Ehrlich who started 'sky is falling science' in the 70s who recently, as noted by physorg, is most concerned about policy.

"Scientists must leave the ivory tower and become advocates, or civilization is endangered, says Stanford biologist"http://www.physor...red.html

The EinsteinSzilárd letter was a letter sent to the United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt on August 2, 1939, that was signed by Albert Einstein but largely written by Leó Szilárd in consultation with fellow Hungarian physicists Edward Teller and Eugene Wigner. The letter suggested that the U.S. should begin its own research because of the potentially vast destructive power of atomic bombs. Einstein, Szilárd, Teller and Wigner were among a number concerned scientists who initially feared Nazi Germany would develop the weapon first.

Look at those pathetic little Chicken Littles running around like the sky is falling.

Another govt/science fiasco:"The political battle waged over embryonic stem cell research burst onto the front pages in 2001, when many reporters and scientists began touting stem cells as medical miracles that would offer cures for Alzheimers, diabetes, Parkinsons and other diseases.

From 2000 onwards, Democrats and liberals were hyping the research absurdly, Princeton professor Robert George, a member of President George. W. Bushs Council on Bioethics, told The Daily Caller. There was no real prospect of therapeutic uses of [Gerons] embryonic stem cells."Democrats, however, eagerly used the prospect of miracle cures to lure sick voters and retirees, flatter professionals and stigmatize conservatives as being anti-science.

"The end of Gerons embryo stem-cell work now leaves the stem cell field dominated by two other types of stem-cells. Both are supported by social conservatives, and both were derided by Democrats and many reporters.The leading stem cell technology is found in many hospitals, where doctors and surgeons use cells found in patients own organs. Those adult stem cells can be stimulated to regenerate damaged hearts and other organs. In one peer reviewed study published on Nov. 16, more than a dozen heart-failure patients gained an average 12 percent improvement in heart function from their own stimulated stem cells.

This uncontroversial adult cell technology was pioneered by hospitals, not drug companies. It is sufficiently reliable that insurance companies green-light its use for the treatment of multiple sclerosis, lupus and many other ailments, and it is cheered by social conservatives and religious groups because it improves medical treatments without killing human embryos."

"The Democrats decade-long strategy of hyping embryo stem cell research crashed into a hard fact on Nov.15. Thats when Geron Corp., the worlds leading embryo research company, announced it was closing down its much-touted stem cell program, despite the guarantee of more government aid from Democratic-affiliated sources.

Without killing human embryos is key. Liberals demand human embryos be used in research because it is more in line with their "murder of babies" genocidal plan. They glory in mass murder of the future children of our nation . . .but then bitch and moan that there won't be enough people around in the future to support the old and the welfare queens with taxpayer's money because there won't be enough taxpayers. You can't have it both ways. But that's another reason why the Liberals are so lax in the illegal immigration laws. The Liberals will want illegals to be given the gift of citizenship so that the illegals will take the place of the murdered babies and will be able to VOTE FOR LIBERALS over and over. Millions of potentially beautiful and healthy babies have died in the womb because of Planned Parenthood, run by Liberals. BTW, I heard that Margaret Sanger was arrested. Is it true? LOL

The paranoid spokesman sees the fate of conspiracy in apocalyptic termshe traffics in the birth and death of whole worlds, whole political orders, whole systems of human values. He is always manning the barricades of civilization...

Since what is at stake is always a conflict between absolute good and absolute evil, what is necessary is not compromise but the will to fight things out to a finish...

The enemy is clearly delineated: he is a perfect model of malice, a kind of amoral supermansinister, ubiquitous, powerful, cruel, sensual, luxury-loving...

Rygg2. . .thanks for that link. . .from the article: """The new slogan sidelines older themes, including we cant wait and pass this bill, but it allows Obama to portray himself on the campaign trail as the progressive solution to the current economic paralysis.

Obama NEEDS a new slogan. His ratings are going down down down. His "fair play, fair shot, and everybody does their fair share" actually means EVERYBODY gonna be po' and down and out so he can give mo money to his favorite big corporations, Unions, and keep them welfare queens smiling. Ptooey

It's obvious you don't want the power taken away from you. So you accuse others of trying to grab it.

Power?Yes, that is what 'progressives' crave, power. Power to TAKE from others, to have the power to legally plunder, and make their version of Utopia.What is 'fair' Frankie?I think it would be fair that no govt funded school can grant tenure.

Yes, that is what 'progressives' crave, power. Power to TAKE from others, to have the power to legally plunder, and make their version of Utopia.

Well I guess you don't crave what you already have huh? You have the power to *take* opportunity from people. You also have the power to *bestow* opportunity on people as a "job creator". Feels good doesn't it? I bet you're going to cling on to that for your last few bitter years.

I think it would be fair that no govt funded school can grant tenure.

Holy non sequitur Batman.

I think not requiring anyone to declare bankruptcy over an illness is fair.

Why didn't Hofstadter comment on the radical left/'liberal'/socialist extremes?Today it is the radical left that is paranoid and attacking those who peacefully protest their govt and support those who are violently protesting capitalism.It is not paranoid to oppose those who want to control your life amd take your wealth

BTW, Joe McCarthy was proven to be correct.

At least Hofstadter finally saw the light:"Starting as a member of the Communist Party, he moved to the right, and by the 1950s was a leading liberal. Shocked by the radicalism of the New left in the late 1960s, he became a spokesman for conservatives."http://conservape...e_note-6

Rygg2. . . .you bring up very good points. . .but you're arguing with a numbskull FrankHerb$hithead who would steal the shoes off a bum in an alley to give them to some welfare daddy and regard himself as a good citizen for doing it. The rich are about to leave the country and take their wealth with them. Only rich people left will be Oprah, George Soros, Steven Spielberg, Whoopi Goldberg, Sean Penn, Tom Hanks and several other rich Liberals who ain't goin nowhere no how. . . .hahahahahaObama will have to get tax money off these folks until they yell, "ENOUGH, WE'VE BEEN TAXED ENOUGH ALREADY!!" Then, when most of their money is gone to pay for the welfare queens, there won't be anyone left to steal money from.

All them Liberals will be crying the blues because they'll have to stop pretending they're so altruistic. Sure, they're altruistic, but with OTHER people's money. That's how Obama is too, generous with other people's money that was stolen from them legally. But it's still theft when it's taken from one set of people to be given to another who don't want to work for it. That's how America is turning out to be. . .NOT what the founding fathers had hoped for, but instead, it's becoming a full blown welfare state.

How do I have any power to take anything from anyone without going to jail like any other criminal?

How are taxes theft? You play with definitions, so I'm doing the same. Frustrating, isn't it?

With regards to Hofstadter, I'll simply quote some of the collection of quotes from his essay. Anyone is free to decide what faction in modern society best mirrors the trend Hofstadter described.

Well, I don't need to quote McCarthy. Marjon is his living mouthpiece so I'll leave that alone.

Now turn back fifty years to a manifesto signed in 1895 by a number of leaders of the Populist party:

As early as 1865-66 a conspiracy was entered into between the gold gamblers of Europe and America.For nearly thirty years these conspirators have kept the people quarreling over less important matters while they have pursued with unrelenting zeal their one central purpose.

deepsand, I don't know what kind of personal vendetta you have toward Rygg2, and I don't really care. I try to treat everyone equally, except for those who are complete azzholes like FrankHerb$hit and Howhot$hit. Vendicarrion has his moments too. Sometimes OK, most times he be another azzhole too.If you're against Rygg2 just because of science, that's no good reason for hate or dislike. I'm sorry, but I don't buy such behavior.

Here's a news flash for you: HowHot more accurately by a long shot presents the Science than does R2.

Your favoring the one over the other owes to your putting policy considerations ahead of empirical facts.

Every device of treachery, every resource of statecraft, and every artifice known to the secret cabals of the international gold ring are being used to deal a blow to the prosperity of the people and the financial and commercial independence of the country.

Next, a Texas newspaper article of 1855:

It is a notorious fact that the Monarchs of Europe and the Pope of Rome are at this very moment plotting our destruction and threatening the extinction of our political, civil, and religious institutions. We have the best reasons for believing that corruption has found its way into our Executive Chamber, and that our Executive head is tainted with the infectious venom of Catholicism.The Pope has recently sent his ambassador of state to this country on a secret commission, the effect of which is an extraordinary boldness of the Catholic church throughout the United States.

And Vladimir Putin is gonna dance a jig if Obama is reelected. All that pretending that he doesn't like the U.S. and Capitalism. Oh sure, Putin doesn't like Capitalism in Russia, but he understands that Capitalism is the driving force behind the grabbing of taxpayer's money out of workers' pockets. That's why he will allow just a little bit of Capitalism in his own country, but not much more. Then he will get chummy with comrade Obama and talk him into investing taxpayer money in Russian stocks and bonds. I predict it will happen.

These minions of the Pope are boldly insulting our Senators; reprimanding our Statesmen; propagating the adulterous union of Church and State; abusing with foul calumny all governments but Catholic, and spewing out the bitterest execrations on all Protestantism. The Catholics in the United States receive from abroad more than $200,000 annually for the propagation of their creed. Add to this the vast revenues collected here.

Hofstadter did criticize liberals of paranoia. Only a paranoid person denies his side is capable of paranoia.

These quotations give the keynote of the style. In the history of the United States one find it, for example, in the anti-Masonic movement, the nativist and anti-Catholic movement, in certain spokesmen of abolitionism who regarded the United States as being in the grip of a slaveholders conspiracy, in many alarmists about the Mormons, in some Greenback and Populist writers who constructed a great conspiracy of international bankers, in the exposure of a munitions makers conspiracy of World War I, in the popular left-wing press, in the contemporary American right wing, and on both sides of the race controversy today, among White Citizens Councils and Black Muslims.

The point isn't that Conservatives are more prone to it. The point is THEY ARE CURRENTLY ENGAGED IN IT. They fit the archetype to a T. I'm not sure they are even distinct from the John Birch society.

deepsand. . . .glad you're back. . . .but Howhot comes off more like a crackhead welfare bich who hates white folks and can't wait for the day when blacks take over the country. That's the message I get from her words. As far as her being a scientist, I doubt that. More like a lab technician who draws blood and test it for AIDS or whatever. I could call myself a scientist too. That doesn't mean it's true. And I can copy and paste too, and try to make people think that I'm learned and knowledgeable about science. But I was honest and told everyone I'm not a scientist and most have accepted that. My father-inlaw used to say that "book larnin don't mean smart. It only means somebody can memorize and retain a lot of things."

deepsand. . . .glad to you're back. . . .but Howhot comes off more like a crackhead welfare bich who hates white folks and can't wait for the day when blacks take over the country. That's the message I get from her words.

What paranoia?'Progressive' big govt policies have been destroying the economy for quite some time.AGWites have been quite paranoid. But I can't blame them too much as they don't have the data to support their claims of calamity.The 'liberal' press gave Obama a pass on all his questionable associations, zero experience and no academic records while the same press is crawling up the arses of some of his opponents. The shrillness of the 'liberals' don't support a conservative paranoia. It confirms their paranoid quest for power and they squeal when that power is threatened.

LOL.....the pot calling the kettle black. . . .oh boy, that's rich. . . .I wasn't calling the kettle black. I was just saying that she comes off NOT as a scientist, just a plain ol lab tech that draws blood, is all who's only pretending to be a scientist. I KNOW some REAL scientists. And they don't have time to be worried about who or why people doubt AGW. They're busy doing real research, not aiding and abetting phony baloney plastic bananas like FrankHerb$hit

It's one thing to claim humans have little impact on global warming, don't have any impact on it at all, or hey global warming *might* not even exist! None of those are totally unreasonable if you are willing to look at new information and reevaluate your position.

What you do is tie a belief in AGW to some grand liberal/socialist/marxist/bad person/obama conspiracy that has no basis in reality. YOU then lambast anyone who disagrees with that. This is why I and others take a hostile attitude with you. The same goes for Marjon. Most of the other people I spout off with have earned that distinction from blind defense of the previous two.

Marjon, you defined Hofstadter as a "liberal" (I didn't), then you used a specious source (conservapedia) to claim "hey in his later years he wizened up and became a conservative (implying he disowned his earlier work [he didn't])."

All I did was show you that his essay, which you CLAIM is liberal and IMPLY that he disowned later on (he didn't), criticizes American paranoia. Not liberal paranoia. Not conservative paranoia. American paranoia.

Rygg2. . . .Liberals are showing signs of desperation when they roll out those accusations of "conspiracy" theories. As it gets closer to elections next November, you will hear a lot of howling and threats and they will bring in the big guns to intimidate white voters. Some voters are Liberals, but they'll be intimidated too because they're white and you never can tell if they're gonna change their mind when they see big guys with truncheons and fatigues in the voting places. When you go to vote, make sure none of them go in with you when you draw the curtain. . .you know how Liberals are. . .they be getting desperate...LOL

deepsand. . . you never did say what it is you're doing to avoid AGW. I waited and waited.Another thing. . .do you plan to get Red Chinese to stop their polluting of the planet too? You must know by now that they have surpassed the U.S. in CO2 emissions.

Rygg2. . . .you're completely right about the shrillness of the Liberals. . .the shrill can be heard and read everywhere Liberals congregate and written words in magazines, on the radio and TV, and right here in the threads. . . .Liberals are a bunch of girly-men and that's the truth. And they get their panties in a wad anytime a Conservative talks against Obama health care and his bailouts of the banks and GE.

Conservative commentator George Will called Richard Hofstadter "the iconic public intellectual of liberal condescension", who "dismissed conservatives as victims of character flaws and psychological disorders a 'paranoid style' of politics rooted in 'status anxiety', etc. Conservatism rose on a tide of votes cast by people irritated by the liberalism of condescension."

- Wikipedia, a much better source than conservapedia.

Why would you try to claim Hofstadter as a conservative when he's clearly not viewed as one by prominent conservatives?

Pirouette just sent that PM to me. Cool man. Bet the ladies love that attitude.

In light of that it's obvious your "lol bet she draws blood and checks it for AIDS" comment was both a sexist comment because, "lol who would draw blood except a woman", and homophobic because "LOL AIDS!"

You're pathetic. You're retired. You've had long enough to learn how to be a decent person. Take a long look in the mirror man.

As usual, FrankHerb$hit tells lies. . . .he has sent ME 5 PMs already and I guess he'll be sending more. If anybody wants the truth, just ask the Physorg moderators to let you know if Pirouette has ever sent a PM to FrankHerb$hit. . . .they will back me up that I never have. I have asked them already to confirm that I never have. . .am waiting for the response.

deepsand. . . you never did say what it is you're doing to avoid AGW. I waited and waited.Another thing. . .do you plan to get Red Chinese to stop their polluting of the planet too? You must know by now that they have surpassed the U.S. in CO2 emissions.

Again with the red herrings?

You admit to not understanding the Science; and, yet, you reject the real Science that's presented to you, and accept the faux science presented by R2 and his ilk.

It very much looks like you only want to believe that which supports your desired conclusion, based on your policy positions.

Why would I want to waste my time trying to explain anything to a closed mind???

... do you plan to get Red Chinese to stop their polluting of the planet too? You must know by now that they have surpassed the U.S. in CO2 emissions.

Did you ever stop to wonder why that is?

Might it owe in great part to the US and Germany having expatriated their smokestack industries to China, so that goods could be produced with cheap labor and no environmental controls prior to their being imported to the US and Europe for consumption?

I fully expect the "Red Chinese" will take action on global warming because unlike the US of A, they get it! Sure they burn a lot of coal, but they get the fact that the desert areas are creaping towards mainland. They get sea level rise and it's implications on their economy. They get it.

I fully expect the "Red Chinese" will take action on global warming because unlike the US of A, they get it! Sure they burn a lot of coal, but they get the fact that the desert areas are creaping towards mainland. They get sea level rise and it's implications on their economy. They get it.

My homeland doesn't get it.

Its so much unlike the US. THE usa..

China gets what? What evidence do you have the Chinese give a rat's a$$ about AGW? They are a dictatorship and can force anyone to do anything, anytime. What have the done to prove they 'get it'?

Why would anyone bother providing you evidence? You'll just ignore it. If you really want to know, look it up yourself and maybe present yourself with some information that will challenge your world view.

I'm assuming you haven't done so in at least 40 years.

Just so you know, I googled "china global warming" and the first results are quite mixed. Not the picture you painted.

Also, do you mind telling Pirouette why you are known as Marjon? He'd like to know.

There IS NO evidence that Red China cares about AGW. . . .even though they are producing goods for American companies and other countries. They have an almost limitless workforce supply and they have to force their people from coming into Chinese cities with the requirement of a visa that is almost impossible to get. Everyone there wants to get to the cities to look for jobs and the Chinese gov't is worried that too many of their people in the cities makes the possibility of dissension and overthrow of the government much greater than if the people are forced to stay in the villages. There is no freedom in China, and the gov't cares little about its own people and the environment in which they have to live. The gov't mainly supports the military and weapons research and building and will eventually take over all of Asia and Southeast Asia.. To them, people are an expendable commodity, a little above animals to keep enslaved and under control.

... do you plan to get Red Chinese to stop their polluting of the planet too? You must know by now that they have surpassed the U.S. in CO2 emissions.

Did you ever stop to wonder why that is?

deepsand says: Might it owe in great part to the US and Germany having expatriated their smokestack industries to China, so that goods could be produced with cheap labor and no environmental controls prior to their being imported to the US and Europe for consumption?

More than a little hypocritical, no?

Actually, no. . . .Red China actively welcomes businesses from all countries and they get paid handsomely (with the rate of exchange) by those businesses BECAUSE those businesses have low overhead costs and don't have to be taxed heavily and pay exorbitant salaries and benefits as they would be forced to do in their own country. The products are relatively well-made and there are no threats of a strike by union workers for higher pay in China. . .because there are NO unions.

Business is business no matter in which country it is conducted. Red China utilizes Capitalism for their own ends, and the Chinese workers are unconcerned about anything BUT getting their paycheck. The people in China don't think like people in the Western countries. They haven't been spoilt by government protections and entitlement. . .they are way BEYOND Socialism and are living in the realities of a Communist dictatorship. And those people don't give a rat's ass about YOUR concerns about global worming either. . .THEY are in the business of living day by day and putting food on the table. They think that people in Western countries are stupid and foolish and worry about all the wrong things. They don't like us, and sometimes I can't blame them.

... do you plan to get Red Chinese to stop their polluting of the planet too? You must know by now that they have surpassed the U.S. in CO2 emissions.

Did you ever stop to wonder why that is?

deepsand says: Might it owe in great part to the US and Germany having expatriated their smokestack industries to China, so that goods could be produced with cheap labor and no environmental controls prior to their being imported to the US and Europe for consumption?

More than a little hypocritical, no?

Actually, no. . . .Red China actively welcomes businesses from all countries and they get paid handsomely (with the rate of exchange) by those businesses BECAUSE those businesses have low overhead costs and don't have to be taxed heavily and pay exorbitant salaries and benefits as they would be forced to do in their own country.

Irrelevant to the issue of hypocrisy.

Also puts the lie to the "Buy America" mantra. There's a price to be paid for those cheap goods.

Not irrelevant at all. . . .it's all connected if you bother to think about it. "Buy American" doesn't mean much anymore because the prices of American made goods are more expensive than goods made in China. And WHY are those American made goods so expensive? Look at the demands by American unions that American workers get paid exorbitant wages and benefits that make it way too expensive for American companies to operate domestically. The American companies used to pay their employees fair wages for what the work they were doing was worth. But unions leaders decided that union workers were not getting paid enough according to the yearly contracts between employer and employee. . . .and threatened walkouts and strikes where the factories were picketed by union thugs. Hell, in a situation like that, the employers were tired of bending over backwards to try and satisfy the unions and members every year.

It got to be too much after so many years of greedy unions' demands and the companies were losing money that they could have used to reinvest in the company to make it grow and hire more workers. But the unions were and are protected by the U.S. government because they are hand-in-glove committed to the Liberalism of the Leftist unions. Everything has relevance and it won't change for the better until unions are made to stop destroying the unique relationship between employer and employee. Millions of Americans have lost their jobs because of the unions, but ignorant people continue to blame the companies for leaving the country and take the jobs overseas. Put the blame where it rightfully belongs. . . .on the unions and their butt buddies in Washington.

deepsand . . as I've said before. . . .having a job is NOT a right. The American Bill of Rights has no provision anywhere in it that could possibly say that an employer MUST hire anyone, whether they want to or not. A job is a PRIVILEGE and is an agreement and contract between employer and employee. But the government and the unions have screwed over both sides. That's why we have such a bad situation here in the U.S. with so many unemployed. Employers are not going to stick around in a hostile environment caused by unions.

deepsand. . . . .I have no idea what FrankHerb$hit is talking about or why he tells lies about me (and other members), but what he says is PROOF that he is a liar and phucked up in the head. He is obviously DYING for attention and hates to be ignored.

Not irrelevant at all. . . .it's all connected if you bother to think about it.

Which is exactly what you fail to do.

It is hypocritical to demand of China re. CO2 emissions that which you yourself not only will not do, as evidenced by the expatriation of your capitalists' generation of CO2, but which you actively encourage in your quest for cheap goods.

Emulating the Enemey...The Ku Klux Klan imitated Catholicism to the point of donning priestly vestments, developing an elaborate ritual and an equally elaborate hierarchy. The John Birch Society emulates Communist cells and quasi-secret operation through front groups, and preaches a ruthless prosecution of the ideological war along lines very similar to those it finds in the Communist enemy. Spokesmen of the various fundamentalist anti-Communist crusades openly express their admiration for the dedication and discipline the Communist cause calls forth.

The American companies used to pay their employees fair wages for what the work they were doing was worth. But unions leaders decided that union workers were not getting paid enough according to the yearly contracts between employer and employee.

I've watched this issue play out for years. The bottom line is, while the management was paid way beyond their value, skill labor was under paid way their under value.

Not irrelevant at all. . . .it's all connected if you bother to think about it.

Which is exactly what you fail to do.

It is hypocritical to demand of China re. CO2 emissions that which you yourself not only will not do, as evidenced by the expatriation of your capitalists' generation of CO2, but which you actively encourage in your quest for cheap goods.

YOU are the reason that China emits so much CO2.

deepsand. . . .I don't know where or how you get the idea that I buy cheap goods that are made in China. I don't. And even if I decided to, why would you care? Are you saying that the Chinese people have no right to make a living and have a job no matter who it is that is their employer? Do you prefer for the Chinese people to be jobless because they're Chinese? You must be a racist. You're so worried about American businesses going to China, in spite of everything I"ve told you as to the reason WHY they're overseas, and yet you don't want to stop the CO2 emissions. .

from Red China. . . .or is it because they're Communist that THEIR CO2 is perfectly fine, but American CO2 has to be stopped. Is there a major difference between the 2 CO2s? Or is it just that you HATE Capitalists and want to stamp out the Capitalist system and have a purely Communist government in the U.S.?

It's official, the current regime is racist:"The Justice Department is telling university administrators they can grant valuable university slots to people in favored races and ethnic groups.

Read more: http://dailycalle...fihTtIIG"The only positive that comes from such racism is it inspires other into lives they did anticipate. Talk show host Michael Savage is one example.

Of course the Justice Dept. is racist now. . .the Supreme Court is loaded with Socialists/Communists who hate whitesl unless the whites are Liberals. That's a foregone conclusion and has been for years now. The funny thing is that Obama only uses white Liberals and American blacks to further his agenda toward clearing the way for a Communist takeover if he's reelected. He is a Kenyan and has no ties to any slavery ancestors. He doesn't give a flying $hit about American blacks except what they can do for him.

Bush v. Gore, 531 U.S. 98 (2000), is the landmark United States Supreme Court decision on December 12, 2000, that effectively resolved the 2000 presidential election in favor of George W. Bush. Only eight days earlier, the United States Supreme Court had unanimously decided the closely related case of Bush v. Palm Beach County Canvassing Board, 531 U.S. 70 (2000), and only three days earlier, had preliminarily halted the recount that was occurring in Florida.

It was the activist conservative court that forced the end of the recount in a 5-4 decision. Please don't lie. If you are simply mistaken you shouldn't pontificate on subjects you are woefully inadequate to pontificate on.

Bush won by a small margin in Florida against AlGore after all the votes were counted over and over again because Gore wanted desperately to be President. It was the Florida Supreme Court that favored Bush

In a per curiam decision, the Court ruled that the Florida Supreme Court's method for recounting ballots was a violation of the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. The Court also ruled that no alternative method could be established within the time limits set by the State of Florida. Three concurring justices also asserted that the Florida Supreme Court had violated Article II, § 1, cl. 2 of the Constitution, by misinterpreting Florida election law that had been enacted by the Florida Legislature.The decision allowed Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris's previous certification of George W. Bush as the winner of Florida's 25 electoral votes to stand. Florida's votes gave Bush, the Republican candidate, 271 electoral votes, one more than the required 270 electoral votes to win the Electoral College and defeat Democratic candidate Al Gore, who received 266 electoral votes.

Once again, Pirouette is 180 degrees from the truth, and an asshole about it.

Rygg2. . . .you can't convince FrankHerb$hit, hotcow$hit or deepsand that Liberalism/Socialism is a bad system. That's what they believe is right. So they're not worth my time or yours in this thread. You can't cure stupidity and craziness. Let them think they've won the argument and let's go on to more worthwhile debates and discussions. This thread has over 700 comments already and everyone else has left. They say they're sick and tired of FrankHerb$hit's idiotic and racist comments. They're also tired of his following them around into other threads and harassing several of them with his lies. I think hotcow$hit is in love with you and so is FrankHerb$hit. Bye.

It was the activist conservative court that forced the end of the recount in a 5-4 decision

Hung by your own petard.If the Supreme Court is extra-constitutional, which 'liberals' seem to prefer, and Frankie asserts, then you must abide by their rule until you can stack the court with 'liberals' again.

Got to agree with this. When people start supporting domestic production rather than going to wally-mart and buying cheap imports from China, then you have a right to say something. Otherwise you are simply feeding the beast that is kicking our economic and ecological tails. If you don't buy your neighbor's produced goods from a business that cares about its employees and the environment, well, they can't afford to buy yours.

It was the activist conservative court that forced the end of the recount in a 5-4 decision

Hung by your own petard.If the Supreme Court is extra-constitutional, which 'liberals' seem to prefer, and Frankie asserts, then you must abide by their rule until you can stack the court with 'liberals' again.

I said the Constitution -as YOU interpret it- is a dysfunctional document.

Your interpretation is a like recipe. The recipe includes various ingredients. It requires walking from the pantry to fetch the ingredients. When the ingredients you like are added, you don't say anything. However anytime an ingredient you don't like is about to be added you say "the recipe didn't tell you to walk over and get it!" even though it is in the recipe.

My interpretation is functional and it includes Judicial Review.

I am not paranoid enough to claim that the supreme court broke any laws in Bush v Gore. However, I'm not naive enough to think the court didn't go along partisan lines.

Also please specifically list what I've said that makes the Supreme Court extra-constitutional. It's YOUR strict constructionist (i.e. dysfunctional) view that actually would invariably view Judicial Review as extra-constitutional if you were capable of applying your interpretation objectively. The fact that you don't view Judicial Review as extra-constitutional (except when "activist judges" [liberals] engage in it) undermines your entire interpretation of the Constitution. Judicial review is clearly NOT IN THE DOCUMENT. How can YOU support it? YOU are the strict constructionist, not me.

It's YOUR view that (if you weren't a partisan hack) YOU would claim Bush v Gore was extra-constitutional. I said nothing of the sort. The Supreme Court was entirely within their rights to decide the case in the way they did. I'm not happy with it, I don't think it was in the spirit of the law, but it was within the letter of the law.

How can the SCOTUS be supporting and defending the Constitution while at the same time be violating the Constitution?

I don't know, you tell me. This is the logical implication of YOUR strict constructionist view. NOT MINE.

Tell me how Judicial Review is constitutional if it is contained nowhere within the Constitution. The last time you answered this with a link to Article V which mentions nothing of the sort. Amendments are not Judicial Review. The fact that the Constitution COULD be amended to include it (literally) does not change the fact it is not (literally) contained in the constitution.

Tell me how Judicial Review is constitutional if it is contained nowhere within the Constitution.

.Pirouette, re China CO2 emission, you're allowing ideological fanaticism to overcome logical thought. If the world adopts agreement to combat CO2 emissions from significant emitters, then if China/India et al do not abide by the agreement, then countries who IMPORT goods/services from non-complying countries will face IMPORT TARIFFS which 'level the playing field' for manufacturers/suppliers in the IMPORTING countries. Australia is showing the way by passing our own measures, and rest assured if China and others do NOT follow suit, Australia will then be justified in HIGH punitive IMPORT taxes on them. If US and Europe do the same (China HEAVILY DEPENDS on exports to those countries) they can improve the global CO2 situation, AND if not, then at least we'll have just cause to TAX IMPORTS from non-complying countries, and so improve OUR OWN manufacturing competiveness with countries who pay a pittance and exploit child labour.

In case no one gets that, the Champion of Strict Constructionism, Justice Alia, used judicial review (something not contained in the constitution and therefore [it should be] unconstitutional to him) to "create" new 'rights' for corporations.