1) No, I quoted "natural" because you seem oblivious to the notion that bodybuilding isn't about drugs and steroids. And calling creatine a drug is moot since your body has it whether you supplement with it or not.

Bodybuilding is exactly about the drugs and steroids. Take a look at Arnold Schwarzenegger or Sylvester Stallone, steroid users. Most people that are into bodybuilding use steroids, drugs, and supplements. Especially in competitive bodybuilding, it is very common for bodybuilders to use steroids, most publicly say they don't use steroids, but behind closed curtains it's obvious they do.

You know what else is produced in the body naturally? Erythropoietin, Human Growth Hormone, heck even STEROIDS are produced naturally in the body. According to your definition of a drug, you can easily take steroids, HGH, EPO, and you'd still be 'full natty' brah.

If you think no one uses drugs or steroids, or that a very minute amount of bodybuilders use drugs and steroids, then you really don't know as much about bodybuilding as you think you do.

2). Bodybuilders don't take creatine and supplements to be 'equal'. They take them because it helps them optimize their diet and athletic performance which results in *vastly superior* health. They, and I, would run circles around you.

No they take it to be equal. If everyone else around you is on the juice, and the only way to compete aesthetically was to juice, most likely you would do it as well. Heck you already said you were on the supplements and drugs. Tell me then why you did not choose to do it naturally, without the supplements, maybe because you wouldn't be able to compete without them.

Plus, long term studies from Creatine, whey protein, and other bodybuilding drugs don't exist, so the current generation of bodybuilders who use drugs and supplements are basically the test subjects for the next generation to learn from.

3) Vegetarian athletes and bodybuilders need to supplement *more* than their meat-eating counterparts to achieve similar strength and endurance.

You're just throwing that claim out there without any evidence, based on your own assumption trying to defend the culture and lifestyle you were brought into. But like I said, there was a guy who only ate fruit, no supplements, no drugs, and beat out 46,000 other competitors, a number of which most likely have been taking drugs and supplements and were heavy meat eaters.

Plus there was a vegan in 2011 who set a new world record for most weight ever carried, 550kg. There was also a couple in their 60s that set many world records for running the most marathons in a year, they both individually ran 365 marathons in one year, that's one marathon a day, both of them fruitarian vegans in their 60s. I think 66 and 65 years old if I remember correctly. Fit and healthy. No drugs, no supplements.

4) Lol, I'm in better shape than both of those guys at the bottom, and that cross country runner isn't even in great shape, especially since cross country running is one of the dumbest ways to train (because cross country running is evolutionarily counter-intuitive for humans). If you want to look like a skinny weakling (because that's what cross-country runners are), then go ahead.

Let me guess, you can do all the tricks they do and more. Can you beat this guy in martial arts as well?

5) Okay, I'll dumb this down for you. I used to eat tons of vegetables every day, several times per day, and it made me feel *worse* (because of distended stomach, gas, etc.). Why should I go back to all those veggies if it's going to make me feel worse?

Farts are a natural part of your digestive system... I don't even know what to say to this one.

Yes, watch out for those fruits and vegetables. They are not good for you. Instead, eat high fat diets, eat processed foods, eat candies, take drug supplements, those are healthy.

6) Friendly advice -- you *desperately* need to familiarize yourself with logical fallacies, particularly the "strawman" logical fallacy whereby you start arguing against a point I never made. You do this countless times. All that does is make it impossible to respond to many of your points. Note this doesn't make your argument better, but rather makes it completely pointless.

Hey don't be a hypocrite, you started talking about mile run times, 40 yard dash times, swimming times, etc, when those were points I never made. This is a conversation, I bring up my ideas, you bring up your ideas. It's not an argument because being a vegetarian or vegan wins hands down in any category: health, morality, compassion, peace, love, strength, power, muscle, speed, etc.

There's literally no argument. I've only been a vegetarian for a short amount, and I'm the healthiest I've ever been in my entire life, no lack of energy, no mood swings, I feel smarter, faster, stronger, more socially active than I have ever been before. This after trying out many other diets and thinking vegetarians were all wrong, no way I can abandon meat, etc. I've not tried being a Vegan yet, but that will be the next step in my evolution.

7) I can run a mile in ~4:30 and can run nine miles in under an hour. I can swim a mile nonstop in under 45 minutes and can sprint a 4.4s 40-yard dash. I can do 100 push-ups and 40 pull-ups on a row. I can bench press 250 lbs. and leg press ~1000 lbs, and keep in mind I only weigh ~165lbs. right now. I have perfect blood pressure and cholesterol levels and have a resting pulse of 48bpm. Now, explain to me why the fuck I should listen to you or change what I'm doing instead of vice versa.

Because your performance would be improved. Mike Tyson agrees, he says if he were a vegan when he was younger in boxing, he doesn't know what he would have been able to accomplish. If you don't want to listen to me, listen to the medical doctors, listen to the world record breakers, listen to the science, the clinical studies. Plus you'll be doing less harm to the planet and even learn more about nutrition you haven't learned of yet.

So taking this debate to other level..! If anyone here heard about Prahlad Jani ? This man claims to have lived without food and water since 1940,Put into Investigation thrice but noone noticed anything suspicious other than that its not Scientifically Possible.

So taking this debate to other level..! If anyone here heard about Prahlad Jani ? This man claims to have lived without food and water since 1940,Put into Investigation thrice but noone noticed anything suspicious other than that its not Scientifically Possible.

The man is definitely a fraud. No food or water the last 74 years? His body may have adapted itself whereby he can go for long periods without food or water, but he's definitely eating and drinking every now and then at the very least.

So taking this debate to other level..! If anyone here heard about Prahlad Jani ? This man claims to have lived without food and water since 1940,Put into Investigation thrice but noone noticed anything suspicious other than that its not Scientifically Possible.

It's an interesting story but honestly, to me it receives more attention that it should. Magazines and website keep bringing this up all the time. The thing is, that they don't get the news from a creadible source. He became famous though a discovery channel documentary. And how much credibility can you give to that? All those investigations are medical tests that took place to see if he was healty. Those "Investigations for the benefit of mankind" sound like total BS to me.

CoinGeneral, you're so misinformed that I think you need to take a step back and rethink everything you've said so far.

I only read the first few pages since this thread is pretty long now, but I think I've got the gist of what is being said here. First of all, you have NO IDEA how much irony is being spewed from your mouth.

That comparison chart of atheists/ vegans vs christians / meat-eating is the most retarded chart ever and only a person with extreme views would use such a an example to prove a point. It's beyond straw-man and is just dumb.

You don't think there are vegan christians or meat-eating atheists? That disproves your whole chart; it had no basis to even exists as an argument. You're literally grouping non-existent ideas and putting them forward as an argument.

I spent a good week or so reading and reading and even emailed the great Gary Yourosky. After one email reply from him he stopped answering me. It was unfortunate because I had so many questions and he said his site (which DID provide a lot of answers) that he didn't even bother to respond after I had a full essay of questions afterwards.

I also spent a good amount of time watching videos from "freelee banana girl" and watching "durianrider" videos where they take in something crazy like 10,000 calories a day and are still skin and bones thin. It was really interesting and I was fascinated how it worked. I read a lot of different conclusions online; most of them had to do with our body not being able to take in all the calories due to the fiber and others stated it had to do with all the endurance exercise they did as well.

None the less, my conclusion was that the human body is exceptional and can ADAPT when it needs to. Whether paleo, vegan or just bread and water for the week. The human body can get what it needs when it has nothing else to take from.

-----

If meat was SO bad for humans and if our bodies were not evolved for eating meat then we would simply be sick very soon after eating meat every time. Which obviously isn't the case.

If our stomach were not meant for meat then our bodies would reject it. Yet the human body has a stomach ph level of around 1.5 to 3.5 and the intestinal length required to fully digest it.

I've been eating meat my whole life (only 22 years albeit) and I'm doing just fine. I have no bowel problems and pass stool just fine and I feel energetic in the morning blah blah blah.

You also forgot one important aspect about humans. We are at the top of the food chain because of our brains. Our intelligence is what allowed us to cook food, preserve food, and use technology to enhance food production for our sake.

Humans have been eating meat for hundreds of thousands of years and without killing animals it could be argued that humans may not have survived the ice age. Animals provided clothing, weapons and food.

1) Do you also think baseball is "about drugs and steroids?" Steroids, growth hormone, and other drugs are banned and tested for in bodybuilding just as it is in baseball. But, baseball is about baseball, and bodybuilding is about bodybuilding, regardless of the lengths some individuals go to to cheat.

Again, *no* bodybuilding is not about drugs or steroids.

I'm not saying bodybuilding is literally about drugs and steroids, but figuratively it is. If you want to be a top athlete, you have to take on the juice. The top bodybuilders and the top athletes in any sport are doped. You think Michael Phelps and Missy Franklin are clean? You don't know what's happening behind closed doors but it's very naive to think every athlete out there is clean.

Alex Rodriguez never failed a drug test. Lance Armstrong never failed a drug test. Marion Jones never failed a drug test. Ben Johnson never failed a drug test. They all admitted to being clean in front of live media, in front of the entire world. It was their team or someone from the inside who reported their drug use.

EPO, Human Growth Hormone, blood doping, testosterone, are all pretty much undetectable. All drugs can be made undetectable. It is so easy to get away with any drug test. Even for Marijuana there are literally online guides and tutorials that tell you step by step how to become undetectable. There's even guides for Meth and Cocaine. Every drug out there is EASY to get away with. EASY.

Check out this video by a Crossfit athlete who admits to HOW EASY IT IS to get away with steroid use:

"We have a good testing procedure to date, considering where the sport's at. Absolutely you can get away with it. One hundred percent. It'd be totally easy right now to get away with it. Anyone with any limited knowledge in steroid use, HCH, blah blah blah, you'd have to have the funding to do it, but because there's no year round testing of anybody, it'd be totally easy. I know Rich Froning does it though."

"When you're a professional athlete like me you're in an elite group. I'm friends with professional baseball players, basketball players, boxers, you name it, I know. The fact is that every single one of these people that are in a professional sport, know that they're all on steroids. They've all taken steroids themselves."

2). Uh, creatine has been studied extensively for decades and there is an absolutely staggering body of evidence that suggests there's virtually no downside whatsoever to creatine supplementation, but there are overwhelming benefits. It absolutely has been studied long term and is completely safe and promotes health, energy, and well-being.

As far as the other supplements I take, I use whey protein and a multi vitamin/mineral supplement. You're a nutcase if you think this is a bad thing. You're also contradicting your previous argument since there is nothing natural about vegetarian food that's specifically processed to taste like meat.

This is your problem -- you're so damn stubborn that your mind will perform all sorts of mental gymnastics to try to prove your point, but in doing so you just start rejecting 'any'thing that didn't come out of your own mouth. But, in doing this you just start contradicting yourself.

How about this, I'll agree that it's unnatural to supplement with creatine and vitamins/minerals if you agree it's unnatural to eat a plant that has been altered to look, smell, and taste like a chicken. Deal?

Hahahaha. I can't believe you're saying that I'M the stubborn person. This is so hilarious I'm shaking my head in disbelief. The open minded skeptic who does his research, studies, and experiments is the one that doesn't know what he's talking about but the guy that doesn't do his homework and says creatine is NOT a drug is right. Okay buddy.

Let's go ahead and take a look at what your McDonalds meat looks like:

"The non-processed meat may contain proteins and fats, which are needed by the organism, but when consumed in excess, the meat can lead to a high cholesterol index and obesity. In addition, some meats may contain parasites, which can cause infections or an upset stomach. If the meat is processed, it may not be healthy, because it contains numerous unsaturated fats and salt. Burgers or salami may contain poor quality meat, so these products may not be considered very healthy.

The consumption of poor quality meat has been linked to colon cancer, stomach problems and heart disease. Veggie meat may be healthier than real meat, but it all depends on what other ingredients are in the product. Veggie meats that contain mostly cheese and eggs may also have a high fat and calorie content, which can result in an increased cholesterol and even obesity (but only when consumed in excess)."

Plus I've got some friends that work or used to work at these fast food chains, and majority of food they cook is crap. It looks like crap when it comes out of the refrigerator, sometimes even weeks or months passed the expiration date and they serve it to people. What's inside veggie meats?

Typically these companies that produce veggie meats are run by people who are vegetarian or vegan themselves, and they care about their customer's health. They want what's best for people. So, check it out. All natural, no GMO, no cholesterol, no additives, etc. You think McDonalds gives a crap about you or your health? They're in it for the money, and they're scamming every one of you suckers bombarding you with advertisements and other crap you fall for so easily.

3). Again, cross-country runners are weak pussies. I don't want to beat out 46,000 competitors at long-distance running because it likely means I'd look like a string bean and would have difficulty lifting a milk jug out of the fridge. Aside from ther ability to run long and far, cross country runners are piss-poor athletes.

Funny story, I ran a one mile race and a sprinting race against my body builder friend, and he's a big guy, takes creatine, whey powder, your generic 'bro-science it works brah' stuff. I smoked him in the one mile, he didn't even stand a chance. I'm not even a competitive athlete like I said before and this guy has been bodybuilding for more than 10 years. In the sprint I only BARELY lost. I need more practice in sprinting, but he was exhausted after the 100M, I could still keep on going.

Yeah he can beat me right now in armwrestling, 'mercy', and he can lift me up above his shoulders, but I don't practice either running nor weightlifting, but still whooped him in running.

4) Nice fallacy (again) when you assert bodybuilders take supplements to be equal. I thought we were talking about bodybuilders vs, non-bodybuilders, not bodybuilders who supplement vs. those that don't. Bodybuilders who supplement do so in part to be 'equal' to other bodybuilders who do the same, but they are far superior to both those who don't bodybuild and those who don't supplement. You can't be this dumb, or at least I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Thanks for admitting what I said was right, except you added some extra flavoring of words to make it seem like I was wrong.

5) Lol ask the vegetarian football player how many hundreds of dollars he spends per month on supplements. The answer will astonish you.

There's vegetarians and vegans in all sports. In the NBA, in NFL, NHL, in the MLB. Most likely they all take drugs like I said before. Meat eaters included. Meat eaters have to take even more drugs and supplements just to be equal.

Me: vegetables make me feel worse. Why should I eat them?You: because they'll make you feel better!

This is essentially how you responded to my point. Do you see how fucking dumb that is? You're missing the fact that 'experientially' I've had better success and better health and better moods without vegetables in my diet. To rephrase the issue, imagine if I said, "I took off this sweater because it makes me feel hot. Why should I put it back on?" to which you say, "Because it will make you feel cool!"

Dummy.

Have you ever tried a no meat diet? Check out what Tim Shieff has to say after taking meat out of his diet:

9) Lol oh so Mike Tyson is your go-to for expert advice. Good luck with that one. I learned about nutrition from a guy who won the Mr. Universe at 245 lbs. at 1.7% body fat with no steroids or growth hormones, and he also trained the Detroit Lions minor league football team. Here's his website www.primmandproper.com. Give him a call, tell him you know me, and then feel humbled as he explains to you why you have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

My performance is already vastly superior to yours and 99.9% of the population. How about you walk the walk before you talk the talk?

Hmm who should I take advice from? Mike Tyson a professional athlete that beat the snot out of his competition with his iron punches, held all three boxing heavyweight championship title belts at once OR a no-name guy that claims to not have used drugs and steroids, and won a muscle flexing tournament.

Most likely Jeff Primm takes steroids by the way, but like I explained above, it easy as hell to get away with it. Here's a comment I see on one of his Youtube videos:

"This guy claims he has been drug free his whole life...He is full of shit, he has used steroids his whole life, and I know people he even has sold steroids to. Most bodybuilders use steroids, its alright. But, the fact of trying to deceive the people into thinking something you're really not is a BIG JOKE!!! Stay away from this guy and his gym. He is a BIG JOKE, and never was a pro bodybuilder!!!"

CoinGeneral, you're so misinformed that I think you need to take a step back and rethink everything you've said so far.

I only read the first few pages since this thread is pretty long now, but I think I've got the gist of what is being said here. First of all, you have NO IDEA how much irony is being spewed from your mouth.

That comparison chart of atheists/ vegans vs christians / meat-eating is the most retarded chart ever and only a person with extreme views would use such a an example to prove a point. It's beyond straw-man and is just dumb.

You don't think there are vegan christians or meat-eating atheists? That disproves your whole chart; it had no basis to even exists as an argument. You're literally grouping non-existent ideas and putting them forward as an argument.

I spent a good week or so reading and reading and even emailed the great Gary Yourosky. After one email reply from him he stopped answering me. It was unfortunate because I had so many questions and he said his site (which DID provide a lot of answers) that he didn't even bother to respond after I had a full essay of questions afterwards.

I also spent a good amount of time watching videos from "freelee banana girl" and watching "durianrider" videos where they take in something crazy like 10,000 calories a day and are still skin and bones thin. It was really interesting and I was fascinated how it worked. I read a lot of different conclusions online; most of them had to do with our body not being able to take in all the calories due to the fiber and others stated it had to do with all the endurance exercise they did as well.

None the less, my conclusion was that the human body is exceptional and can ADAPT when it needs to. Whether paleo, vegan or just bread and water for the week. The human body can get what it needs when it has nothing else to take from.

-----

If meat was SO bad for humans and if our bodies were not evolved for eating meat then we would simply be sick very soon after eating meat every time. Which obviously isn't the case.

If our stomach were not meant for meat then our bodies would reject it. Yet the human body has a stomach ph level of around 1.5 to 3.5 and the intestinal length required to fully digest it.

I've been eating meat my whole life (only 22 years albeit) and I'm doing just fine. I have no bowel problems and pass stool just fine and I feel energetic in the morning blah blah blah.

You also forgot one important aspect about humans. We are at the top of the food chain because of our brains. Our intelligence is what allowed us to cook food, preserve food, and use technology to enhance food production for our sake.

Humans have been eating meat for hundreds of thousands of years and without killing animals it could be argued that humans may not have survived the ice age. Animals provided clothing, weapons and food.

You can ask me those questions instead, I don't know as much as Gary Yourofsky obviously, but he gets a crap ton of emails so he will have a hard time answering them all in which case I'll fill in for him.

The thing is that, smoking, meat, cocaine, etc, these things are bad for our health as well, but obviously the health effects don't show right away. You're at tender young age of 22, you won't see many health problems with people in your age group, even smokers, meat eaters, cocaine addicts, alcoholics, all probably look healthy to you and everyone is doing well.

As you grow older you'll have friends who were skinny that have now become obese, friends who were athletic and healthy that have now contracted a fatal disease, friends who were smart throughout their schooling but have now become slow and dumb. It's a gradual process, you gotta understand that most things in life are not acquired instantaneously; intelligence, strength, health, etc, these are all built up over many years of slow progress and many people throw their time away in neglect not improving in any aspect.

As you become older, you'll know friends who have gotten cancer, heart attacks, kidney stones, stroke, diabetes, etc, and it's a sad thing to see, yet a vegetarian or vegan diet can make you much more resistant to these illnesses or even reverse them completely, it will make you feel better about yourself, become smarter, stronger, live longer, and have a higher quality of life.

Many people switch to taking meat out of their diets for health benefits after suffering from a certain condition. I personally know people who have gotten cancer, who have died of cancer, who committed suicide, who have diabetes, heart disease, have to take pills every morning, have to visit the doctor every day, it's tragic. It's tragic and depressing what lifestyle and diet can do to people long term.

What I suggest is to have a more open mind, to give taking meat out of your diet a try. If it doesn't work for you then that's no problem, at least you gave it some effort to improve your health. Or maybe you might switch to become a vegetarian or vegan later in life, like I said I've seen many people become sick and die. You probably have not seen much sickness or deaths in your age group, but as you get older you'll start to see it more and more.

1) It has absolutely no relevance to the topic whether steroids or other drugs are used, are easy to hide or mask, etc. This is you going off on random tangents because you have nothing to support your core argument.

2) If, as you claim, all top athletes are doped, then why are you referencing Mike Tyson? Surely he must be doped too, because you just said he is. You are the problem with stupid people --you think you're smarter than smart people, and therein lies your stupidity.

Yo, if you actually read what I said, I don't contradict myself. I said vegetarian and vegan athletes in the NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL, olympics, etc, take steroids as well, just like meat eaters do. I never said that they don't. I never said Mike Tyson didn't take them either, he most likely did. But you're putting words into my mouth. So again, who should I take advice from, the three time heavyweight boxing champion of the world, or a guy who claims he doesn't take steroids and won a muscle flexing contest?

3). Jeff Primm won the natural Mr. Universe title and he has pictures and video of the competition. This completely nullifies your bullshit quotes from random youtubers. But I'm sure you think it's more wise to listen to Internet strangers than to someone who trained under his direct supervision for 4+ years. But, if random youtubers are so trustworthy, then all is need to do is find one random comment denouncing vegetarianism and that would prove vegetarianism is inferior...right? (Sarcasm)

10) One more thing about Jeff Primm as he is my friend and I still communicate with him. If you continue to insist that he used steroids or other drugs to win the Mr. Universe title or the buttload of other titles he has, then I will make sure to forward the information to him. I'm sure he is concerned about libelous and/or slanderous comments since he is a businessman and endorses various nutritional products.

You know who else won the 'Natural' Mr. Universe title? Arnold Schwarzenegger. He also has pictures and video of the competition, so this completely nullifies that Arnold took steroids, right?

I don't know anything about Jeff Primm, but like I said no one on the juice is just going to admit they are juicing. Yet, it's easy to get away with it because it's practically undetectable. Watch the videos I linked above, professional athletes talking about how everyone inside the industry is doing steroids, and how easy it is to do steroids and get away with it.

I suggest asking Mr. Primm privately, "hey Jeff, it's me The Joint, what's up man how are you? I'm looking to get into some steroids, not a lot but I just want to try it out, you know where I can get them from and how much? Again I don't want to do a lot of it, just want to try it out."

4) You seem to be so focused on what creatine and other supplements are classified as rather than what they actually do. It's as if you're suggesting that anything unnatural (whatever that means) is bad, and all drugs are unnatural, and so therefore all drugs are bad. Again, are you really this fucking stupid

6) What does posting pictures of fast food meat have anything to do with your argument against meat-eating in general? Everyone knows fast food is processed to death.

*READ THE LAST PATAGRAPH*. You are completely oblivious to how insane your style of debating is. The only weapon in your debate arsenal is pure confusion. And ill admit, it's working, because I have no idea how to fuck you come up with the responses that you do. The worst part is that you actually seem to think that you can just ignore your opponents arguments entirely and replace them with your own.

Please let me know what I'm doing wrong. I never said all drugs are bad, I never said everything unnatural was bad. Please don't put words into my mouth that I never said. You argued that natural bodybuilders don't take drugs or supplements, then you say you take creatine but are all natural. And yet creatine is a drug. So you say creatine is naturally created, so it's not a drug. Then again, steroids, human growth hormone, EPO, etc, are also created naturally by the human body therefore by your definition you can take steroids and still be 'fully natural'.

5) Where the fuck did you get the idea that it made sense to start posting picture of McDonald's "pink slime?" What relevance does any of that have to what you were responding to? Are you a goldfish? I really don't have much to say but, "Okay, that's a picture. Now what the fuck are you trying to say?"

You brought up concern about veggie meats claiming what drugs and other stuff they put on there, I answered your question that since these companies are usually run by other vegans and vegetarians, they care about people's health. So they usually don't put any additives, or MSG, or GMO, or pesticides, etc, into them and try to make it as healthy as possible. Flavoring comes from spices, like Popeye's Chicken or General Tso chicken, they're both chicken but flavored differently thanks to the different spices, which are pure vegetarian and can be also added to other foods.

I put up that picture because even though you don't eat veggie meats, you had huge concern over them for some reason. Yet, you eat the crap that the meat industry produces, bombarded with advertisements day in and day out, but blindly don't question what they put in them? I wanted to show you the truth. The facts. Because you don't get showed them in real life, just like you don't know what drugs athletes are taking on a daily basis. These things happen behind closed doors.

CoinGeneral, you're so misinformed that I think you need to take a step back and rethink everything you've said so far.

I only read the first few pages since this thread is pretty long now, but I think I've got the gist of what is being said here. First of all, you have NO IDEA how much irony is being spewed from your mouth.

That comparison chart of atheists/ vegans vs christians / meat-eating is the most retarded chart ever and only a person with extreme views would use such a an example to prove a point. It's beyond straw-man and is just dumb.

You don't think there are vegan christians or meat-eating atheists? That disproves your whole chart; it had no basis to even exists as an argument. You're literally grouping non-existent ideas and putting them forward as an argument.

I spent a good week or so reading and reading and even emailed the great Gary Yourosky. After one email reply from him he stopped answering me. It was unfortunate because I had so many questions and he said his site (which DID provide a lot of answers) that he didn't even bother to respond after I had a full essay of questions afterwards.

I also spent a good amount of time watching videos from "freelee banana girl" and watching "durianrider" videos where they take in something crazy like 10,000 calories a day and are still skin and bones thin. It was really interesting and I was fascinated how it worked. I read a lot of different conclusions online; most of them had to do with our body not being able to take in all the calories due to the fiber and others stated it had to do with all the endurance exercise they did as well.

None the less, my conclusion was that the human body is exceptional and can ADAPT when it needs to. Whether paleo, vegan or just bread and water for the week. The human body can get what it needs when it has nothing else to take from.

-----

If meat was SO bad for humans and if our bodies were not evolved for eating meat then we would simply be sick very soon after eating meat every time. Which obviously isn't the case.

If our stomach were not meant for meat then our bodies would reject it. Yet the human body has a stomach ph level of around 1.5 to 3.5 and the intestinal length required to fully digest it.

I've been eating meat my whole life (only 22 years albeit) and I'm doing just fine. I have no bowel problems and pass stool just fine and I feel energetic in the morning blah blah blah.

You also forgot one important aspect about humans. We are at the top of the food chain because of our brains. Our intelligence is what allowed us to cook food, preserve food, and use technology to enhance food production for our sake.

Humans have been eating meat for hundreds of thousands of years and without killing animals it could be argued that humans may not have survived the ice age. Animals provided clothing, weapons and food.

You can ask me those questions instead, I don't know as much as Gary Yourofsky obviously, but he gets a crap ton of emails so he will have a hard time answering them all in which case I'll fill in for him.

The thing is that, smoking, meat, cocaine, etc, these things are bad for our health as well, but obviously the health effects don't show right away. You're at tender young age of 22, you won't see many health problems with people in your age group, even smokers, meat eaters, cocaine addicts, alcoholics, all probably look healthy to you and everyone is doing well.

As you grow older you'll have friends who were skinny that have now become obese, friends who were athletic and healthy that have now contracted a fatal disease, friends who were smart throughout their schooling but have now become slow and dumb. It's a gradual process, you gotta understand that most things in life are not acquired instantaneously; intelligence, strength, health, etc, these are all built up over many years of slow progress and many people throw their time away in neglect not improving in any aspect.

As you become older, you'll know friends who have gotten cancer, heart attacks, kidney stones, stroke, diabetes, etc, and it's a sad thing to see, yet a vegetarian or vegan diet can make you much more resistant to these illnesses or even reverse them completely, it will make you feel better about yourself, become smarter, stronger, live longer, and have a higher quality of life.

Many people switch to taking meat out of their diets for health benefits after suffering from a certain condition. I personally know people who have gotten cancer, who have died of cancer, who committed suicide, who have diabetes, heart disease, have to take pills every morning, have to visit the doctor every day, it's tragic. It's tragic and depressing what lifestyle and diet can do to people long term.

What I suggest is to have a more open mind, to give taking meat out of your diet a try. If it doesn't work for you then that's no problem, at least you gave it some effort to improve your health. Or maybe you might switch to become a vegetarian or vegan later in life, like I said I've seen many people become sick and die. You probably have not seen much sickness or deaths in your age group, but as you get older you'll start to see it more and more.

Is this a serious reply? Did you re-read your post? It makes no sense. You're literally INVENTING arguments. How can meat be the inevitable decline of human health? How could you ever postulate that it's all because of meat. Do no other variables exist? Only smoking and drugs? Not genetics in any way?

There is no source or proof on this planet you could site that would prove this, ever. Because it doesn't exist.

The china study? Really? I've got that book on my book shelf and stopped reading after the first chapter. It's been debunked to death already multiple times on the internet.

Have you read the actual china study? The 1000+ page mammoth study? Because the study itself states that it's an OBSERVATIONAL study and isn't meant to be taken empirically.

Observation does not equal causation; the biggest mistake assumed by the china study followers.

My parents are great examples of this. My parents both eat meat and have been for over 65 years. My dad is still in great shape-- no belly; still skinny, no sickness or disease-- and still works as a landscaper and is still mentally sharp, my mom looks real good for her age, speaks two languages fluently blah blah blah... Both my parents hardly ever get sick and I don't think my mom has missed a day of work in over 8 years.

Your post is so moronic you don't see the irony in that your vegan lifestyle is your religion.

The arguments you're posting throughout this thread MIMIC the arguments I used to hear pro-christian people use.

In fact it has nothing to do specifically with religion; it's the mindset of the individual.

Your mindset-type is all over the spectrum: religion, politics, lifestyle.

The same way you said that meat-eaters are brainwashed could be said about vegans-- brainwashed.

I knew a chick from my work who was vegan for 3 years + and she was slow in the head, had mood swings and was always acting funny. Not to mention she actually admitted to not have had her period in the time she was vegan.

I kept telling her to have some meat and get some cholesterol in her diet to fix this problem. She eventually decided to give it a shot and started eating eggs, then liver and then chicken.

She said she felt great and she got her period again.

You want the truth coingeneral? The human body is adaptive. You just need to accept it. Humans can eat meat without any problem and, vice-versa, can do a vegan lifestyle (if done properly) as well as paleo or pescitairian etc...

Humans are omnivores and that lets us eat just about anything as long as it's prepared properly.

Aside from boxing ability, Jeff Primm was (and now certainly is) provably in better shape than Mike Tyson in his prime (more lean muscle mass with a lower body-fat percentile and comparable agility and stamina). Now, Jeff is in his mid to late 50's and he's still over 250 lbs. at ~6% body fat. He looks like he's in his late 30's and sill has the strength of an NFL linebacker and the speed/agility of a running back. I'd listen to him over Tyson any day, and in any time period.

Tyson's speed and agility were on another level for a fighter of his size, so this Primm guy shouldn't even be compared to Tyson. Pro fighters are generally some of the best-conditioned athletes. Muscle mass isn't everything, functional strength is where it's at in the real world.

You and coingeneral seem to be going further into opposite extremes, with both of you making outlandish and exaggerated claims: eating meat is not detrimental to health, 250 pounds of lean muscle mass is not healthy, 1.x percent bodyfat is very unhealthy, etc.

Try steering the conversation away from pro athletes and bodybuilders and more info the realm of the average person.

1). Aside from boxing ability, Jeff Primm was (and now certainly is) provably in better shape than Mike Tyson in his prime (more lean muscle mass with a lower body-fat percentile and comparable agility and stamina). Now, Jeff is in his mid to late 50's and he's still over 250 lbs. at ~6% body fat. He looks like he's in his late 30's and sill has the strength of an NFL linebacker and the speed/agility of a running back. I'd listen to him over Tyson any day, and in any time period.

No one on juice is going to admit they're on it, but no out-of-shape weakling will admit that they aren't jacked because they're relatively ignorant about proper nutrition and exercise.

2). If I asked Jeff for steroids, he'd likely be enormously insulted as that would be like me spitting on all of the knowledge he passed on to me as a result of 30+ years of experience in nutrition and exercise, including knowledge gained while obtaining the dozen or so licenses and certifications he possesses.

Take the advice of Kali Muscle then, he doesn't even do any supplements, no drugs, nothing! All he does is eat clean and exercise for a few hours a day! He is totally legit man, don't ask him about steroids because that will be an insult to his clean and drug free lifestyle:

Also Mike Tyson worked out DAILY for freakin' 15 HOURS A DAY. But don't take advice from a person that works hard and wins worldwide championships, take advice from people that do a few machine exercises then gets super huge and runs a gym for profit and sells supplements. There are SO many personal trainers out there that take drugs and steroids man, and everyone not inside that industry is a sucker! I can't believe you are so oblivious! Do you believe that Twin Muscle Workout, Strength Camp Elliot, Mike Chang, etc, are natural too?

Mike Tyson workout:I was looking through my old Boxing information, and i came across this information on Iron Mike's conditioning regimen up until 1988-1990. 500 press ups (good old traditional hard millitary style pushups), 800 dips, 2000 sit ups, 500 shrugs with a 30 kg barbell all within a hour timespan.

Also, according to the article, up until he fired Kevin Rooney in 1988, his ONLY diet was steak, pasta and fruit juice. How's that for discipline?

Daily Regime (7 days a week):5am: get up and go for a 3 mile jog6am: come back home shower and go back to bed (great workout for those huge legs of his)10am wake up: eat oatmeal12pm: do ring work (10 rounds of sparring)2pm: have another meal (steak and pasta with fruit juice drink)3pm: more ring work and 60 mins on the exercise bike (again working those huge legs for endurance)5pm: 2000 sit-ups; 500-800 dips; 500 press-ups; 500 shrugs with a 30kg barbell and 10 mins of neck exercises7pm: steak and pasta meal again with fruit juice (orange i think it was)8pm: another 30 minutes on the exercise bikethen watch TV and then go to bed.

3) You're right, you didn't say all drugs are bad. But you did imply that creatine is bad because, as a drug, it is not all natural, and you *did* also imply that all unnatural things are bad. Don't you remember childishly poking fun at me because I take creatine and can't attain my athleticism the all-natural way? The only bad thing you've had to say about creatine is that it isn't all natural; this implies that you think anything unnatural is bad or you wouldn't have anything bad to say about creatine. But, simply put, give any individual a creatine supplement and they will be hands-down better than before -- they will be stronger, have more endurance, and can generate more ATP.

Again, you're claiming to be a "natural" bodybuilder but take DRUGS like creatine and supplements. Plus who knows what other drugs and supplements you experimented with. But since steroids isn't a drug because it grows in our body, everyone on steroids is completely drug-free and natural.

4) No, I didn't bring up veggie meats in the context of being bad because they are full of drugs; I said that I would agree that creatine is unnatural if you agree that a plant designed to look, smell, and taste like a chicken is unnatural. I brought this up because you poked fun at me taking creatine which you consider unnatural; I consider meat-like veggies unnatural. And, again, your whipping out your favorite fallacy (I.e. strawman) because all you're talking about is how processed fast-food meat is bad for you, and I don't even disagree with this. But, it's completely irrelevant for a carnivore-vs.-vegetarian debate. You would be better off omitting this sort of tangential argument. It does absolutely nothing to prove that eating meat is bad for you.

5) I voiced a "concern" about veggie meats only to point out your own contradiction, I.e. that you claimed it's unnatural and thus bad for me to take creatine, and so by that line of reasoning it must be bad to eat veggie meats because they, too, are unnatural. I was fighting back using your own unique blend of sloppy logic. You're just failing to recognize that the irrelevance of my concern is as irrelevant as your stated concerns about creatine and supplements.

Like I said, if you are going to consider anything that grows in your body to be natural, then take steroids, EPO, HGH, etc, and you'll still be fully natural according to your definition of natural. Can you admit the fact that you take drugs to improve bodybuilding performance and can't be classified as "fully natural" in that aspect? Or do you want to "tangent" into strawman talking about how veggie meats are unnatural...?

If meat was so healthy and natural, why does it cause so many health epidemics? Take for example obesity, high blood pressure, diabetes, cancer, etc. Eat meat and your risk for these diseases and unhealthiness skyrockets. However, take a vegetarian or vegan diet up and you can completely reverse your illnesses and become the healthiest version of yourself.

I'm so full of energy all the time it's hard to get me to stop. I can jog for hours and hours on end without stopping, I jogged outside recently for over an hour, without stopping, and when I came back home I felt like I could have ran even more. I never felt this good while eating meat, I was NEVER able to run or keep up with people, but I just beat my body builder friend in a 1 mile race, and he's been working out practically his entire life.

It's no freakin' wonder so many vegans or vegetarians are running marathons, ultramarathons, etc, all the time because it's so hard to stop moving. So freakin' filled with energy all the time it's like, ZINGGGGG. Plus I no longer drink coffee, no more five hour energy, and I feel fantastic without any stimulants. NONE. CLEAN AND CLEARED.

Plus, you don't even know the feeling. You don't even know the natural high feeling of having full energy all the time. Not on any diets I have tried have I ever felt this way. If you think I'm overexaggerating or whatever, I freakin' hated waking up early in the morning, I hated being forced to run outside, usually I would crash in the afternoon so I would usually take a nap or another stimulant, but I'm just so full of energy now I could never have imagined feeling this way before trying it.

6) About 80% of the protein I consume that isn't some type of protein supplement comes from canned tuna. Aside from the presence of mercury which is added by the environment instead of intentionally, please tell me where you got your ridiculous assumption that advertisements and marketing have confused me and manipulated me into eating stuff without any consideration for what I put in my body? Here you just start becoming a pretentious jackass.

Look dude, you're not some enlightened guru. It'd be one thing if the things you're spouting we're actually correct, but to be wrong and clearly proud of it results in me being both embarrassed for you and angry that you might actually be allowed to have children and raise them according to whatever fucked up logic you use (if you haven't already, in which case please pass my condolences to your children).

There's a point at which I have to say, "Okay, I tried but it's clear that this person wants to remain willfully ignorant." This is that point. When you're ready to be an adult and respond to my arguments as I make them instead of going through a process of ignore-fabricate-replace-argue, then I'll continue to engage in this debate. How can I possibly respond to your argument when the topic of argument shifts at your whim every paragraph?

I'm not an enlightened 'guru' but I am enlightened and open minded. At one point in your life no doubt you were eating at fast food restaurants, Burger King, McDonalds, etc, because everyone else you knew ate it, and you saw advertisements in TV about it, thought it was the normal thing to do. Fair enough, I did the same, going through drive-thru's, eating 'happy meals' and such. Then you got information from somewhere that fastfood wasn't good for you, so you stopped eating them or stopped frequenting them as much.

MOST people aren't like you though. Unfortunately the majority of people will never learn to research information on the foods they eat or what effects it has on their health. Some people know junk food is bad for them, smoking is bad for them, fast food is bad for them, etc, but take it anyway because they're not thinking of long-term results.

Let me know why it's okay to overfish the tuna population, torture innocent fish then slit their throats causing excrutiating pain upon death, cause extinction, etc, just so you can have your can of tuna for that day or whatever.

Yeah dude let's kill off the entire ocean and make all fish extinct! Screw the next generation growing up, let's use up all our natural resources, cut down all the trees, destroy the Amazon rain forest, screw up the environment, just so people can have heart attacks, die at a younger age, become obese, get cancer, mercury poisoning, etc!

Aside from boxing ability, Jeff Primm was (and now certainly is) provably in better shape than Mike Tyson in his prime (more lean muscle mass with a lower body-fat percentile and comparable agility and stamina). Now, Jeff is in his mid to late 50's and he's still over 250 lbs. at ~6% body fat. He looks like he's in his late 30's and sill has the strength of an NFL linebacker and the speed/agility of a running back. I'd listen to him over Tyson any day, and in any time period.

Tyson's speed and agility were on another level for a fighter of his size, so this Primm guy shouldn't even be compared to Tyson. Pro fighters are generally some of the best-conditioned athletes. Muscle mass isn't everything, functional strength is where it's at in the real world.

You and coingeneral seem to be going further into opposite extremes, with both of you making outlandish and exaggerated claims: eating meat is not detrimental to health, 250 pounds of lean muscle mass is not healthy, 1.x percent bodyfat is very unhealthy, etc.

Try steering the conversation away from pro athletes and bodybuilders and more info the realm of the average person.

With all due respect, no claim I made was fabricated. I do agree, though, that 1.7% body fat is unsustainable long term, but there's absolutely nothing unhealthy about having 250 lbs. of lean mass in and of itself.

Is this a serious reply? Did you re-read your post? It makes no sense. You're literally INVENTING arguments. How can meat be the inevitable decline of human health? How could you ever postulate that it's all because of meat. Do no other variables exist? Only smoking and drugs? Not genetics in any way?

There is no source or proof on this planet you could site that would prove this, ever. Because it doesn't exist.

The china study? Really? I've got that book on my book shelf and stopped reading after the first chapter. It's been debunked to death already multiple times on the internet.

Have you read the actual china study? The 1000+ page mammoth study? Because the study itself states that it's an OBSERVATIONAL study and isn't meant to be taken empirically.

Observation does not equal causation; the biggest mistake assumed by the china study followers.

My parents are great examples of this. My parents both eat meat and have been for over 65 years. My dad is still in great shape-- no belly; still skinny, no sickness or disease-- and still works as a landscaper and is still mentally sharp, my mom looks real good for her age, speaks two languages fluently blah blah blah... Both my parents hardly ever get sick and I don't think my mom has missed a day of work in over 8 years.

Your post is so moronic you don't see the irony in that your vegan lifestyle is your religion.

The arguments you're posting throughout this thread MIMIC the arguments I used to hear pro-christian people use.

In fact it has nothing to do specifically with religion; it's the mindset of the individual.

Your mindset-type is all over the spectrum: religion, politics, lifestyle.

The same way you said that meat-eaters are brainwashed could be said about vegans-- brainwashed.

I knew a chick from my work who was vegan for 3 years + and she was slow in the head, had mood swings and was always acting funny. Not to mention she actually admitted to not have had her period in the time she was vegan.

I kept telling her to have some meat and get some cholesterol in her diet to fix this problem. She eventually decided to give it a shot and started eating eggs, then liver and then chicken.

She said she felt great and she got her period again.

You want the truth coingeneral? The human body is adaptive. You just need to accept it. Humans can eat meat without any problem and, vice-versa, can do a vegan lifestyle (if done properly) as well as paleo or pescitairian etc...

Humans are omnivores and that lets us eat just about anything as long as it's prepared properly.

How can meat be the cause of decline in human health? First, read the entire China Study, it has not been debunked by Denise Minger, Dr. Campbell replied to her 'debunking' here.

"Do I think the China Study findings constitute absolute scientific proof? Of course not. Does it provide enough information to inform some practical decision-making? Absolutely. An impressive and informative web of information was emerging from this study. But does every potential strand (or association) in this mammoth study fit perfectly into this web of information? No. Although most statistically significant strands readily fit into the web, there were a few surprises. Most, but not all, have since been explained." - Dr. T. Colin Campbell.

Second, you're claiming "observation does not equal causation" and I agree, yet you're recommending the book by Weston A. Price which is an ANECDOTAL study written in the 1930s by a dentist who looked at teeth health for overall vitality and you give observational examples of healthy meat eaters and unhealthy vegans yourself. Let me know how that isn't hypocritical.

You say you've read through a few pages of this thread, a chapter of the China Study, and you agree that 'humans are adaptive' and can live healthily without meat as a vegetarian and vegan. Plus don't forget about reversing cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc.

So do you not care about animals being slaughtered inhumanely, deforestation of the gorgeous Amazon rainforest for cattle ranching, fish extinction due to overfishing, etc? Or do you just want to be part of the population that helps destroy the planet?

All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing. Saving the planet starts with personal responsibility.

1). Aside from boxing ability, Jeff Primm was (and now certainly is) provably in better shape than Mike Tyson in his prime (more lean muscle mass with a lower body-fat percentile and comparable agility and stamina). Now, Jeff is in his mid to late 50's and he's still over 250 lbs. at ~6% body fat. He looks like he's in his late 30's and sill has the strength of an NFL linebacker and the speed/agility of a running back. I'd listen to him over Tyson any day, and in any time period.

No one on juice is going to admit they're on it, but no out-of-shape weakling will admit that they aren't jacked because they're relatively ignorant about proper nutrition and exercise.

2). If I asked Jeff for steroids, he'd likely be enormously insulted as that would be like me spitting on all of the knowledge he passed on to me as a result of 30+ years of experience in nutrition and exercise, including knowledge gained while obtaining the dozen or so licenses and certifications he possesses.

Take the advice of Kali Muscle then, he doesn't even do any supplements, no drugs, nothing! All he does is eat clean and exercise for a few hours a day! He is totally legit man, don't ask him about steroids because that will be an insult to his clean and drug free lifestyle:

Also Mike Tyson worked out DAILY for freakin' 15 HOURS A DAY. But don't take advice from a person that works hard and wins worldwide championships, take advice from people that do a few machine exercises then gets super huge and runs a gym for profit and sells supplements. There are SO many personal trainers out there that take drugs and steroids man, and everyone not inside that industry is a sucker! I can't believe you are so oblivious! Do you believe that Twin Muscle Workout, Strength Camp Elliot, Mike Chang, etc, are natural too?

Mike Tyson workout:I was looking through my old Boxing information, and i came across this information on Iron Mike's conditioning regimen up until 1988-1990. 500 press ups (good old traditional hard millitary style pushups), 800 dips, 2000 sit ups, 500 shrugs with a 30 kg barbell all within a hour timespan.

Also, according to the article, up until he fired Kevin Rooney in 1988, his ONLY diet was steak, pasta and fruit juice. How's that for discipline?

Daily Regime (7 days a week):5am: get up and go for a 3 mile jog6am: come back home shower and go back to bed (great workout for those huge legs of his)10am wake up: eat oatmeal12pm: do ring work (10 rounds of sparring)2pm: have another meal (steak and pasta with fruit juice drink)3pm: more ring work and 60 mins on the exercise bike (again working those huge legs for endurance)5pm: 2000 sit-ups; 500-800 dips; 500 press-ups; 500 shrugs with a 30kg barbell and 10 mins of neck exercises7pm: steak and pasta meal again with fruit juice (orange i think it was)8pm: another 30 minutes on the exercise bikethen watch TV and then go to bed.

3) You're right, you didn't say all drugs are bad. But you did imply that creatine is bad because, as a drug, it is not all natural, and you *did* also imply that all unnatural things are bad. Don't you remember childishly poking fun at me because I take creatine and can't attain my athleticism the all-natural way? The only bad thing you've had to say about creatine is that it isn't all natural; this implies that you think anything unnatural is bad or you wouldn't have anything bad to say about creatine. But, simply put, give any individual a creatine supplement and they will be hands-down better than before -- they will be stronger, have more endurance, and can generate more ATP.

Again, you're claiming to be a "natural" bodybuilder but take DRUGS like creatine and supplements. Plus who knows what other drugs and supplements you experimented with. But since steroids isn't a drug because it grows in our body, everyone on steroids is completely drug-free and natural.

4) No, I didn't bring up veggie meats in the context of being bad because they are full of drugs; I said that I would agree that creatine is unnatural if you agree that a plant designed to look, smell, and taste like a chicken is unnatural. I brought this up because you poked fun at me taking creatine which you consider unnatural; I consider meat-like veggies unnatural. And, again, your whipping out your favorite fallacy (I.e. strawman) because all you're talking about is how processed fast-food meat is bad for you, and I don't even disagree with this. But, it's completely irrelevant for a carnivore-vs.-vegetarian debate. You would be better off omitting this sort of tangential argument. It does absolutely nothing to prove that eating meat is bad for you.

5) I voiced a "concern" about veggie meats only to point out your own contradiction, I.e. that you claimed it's unnatural and thus bad for me to take creatine, and so by that line of reasoning it must be bad to eat veggie meats because they, too, are unnatural. I was fighting back using your own unique blend of sloppy logic. You're just failing to recognize that the irrelevance of my concern is as irrelevant as your stated concerns about creatine and supplements.

Like I said, if you are going to consider anything that grows in your body to be natural, then take steroids, EPO, HGH, etc, and you'll still be fully natural according to your definition of natural. Can you admit the fact that you take drugs to improve bodybuilding performance and can't be classified as "fully natural" in that aspect? Or do you want to "tangent" into strawman talking about how veggie meats are unnatural...?

If meat was so healthy and natural, why does it cause so many health epidemics? Take for example obesity, high blood pressure, diabetes, cancer, etc. Eat meat and your risk for these diseases and unhealthiness skyrockets. However, take a vegetarian or vegan diet up and you can completely reverse your illnesses and become the healthiest version of yourself.

I'm so full of energy all the time it's hard to get me to stop. I can jog for hours and hours on end without stopping, I jogged outside recently for over an hour, without stopping, and when I came back home I felt like I could have ran even more. I never felt this good while eating meat, I was NEVER able to run or keep up with people, but I just beat my body builder friend in a 1 mile race, and he's been working out practically his entire life.

It's no freakin' wonder so many vegans or vegetarians are running marathons, ultramarathons, etc, all the time because it's so hard to stop moving. So freakin' filled with energy all the time it's like, ZINGGGGG. Plus I no longer drink coffee, no more five hour energy, and I feel fantastic without any stimulants. NONE. CLEAN AND CLEARED.

Plus, you don't even know the feeling. You don't even know the natural high feeling of having full energy all the time. Not on any diets I have tried have I ever felt this way. If you think I'm overexaggerating or whatever, I freakin' hated waking up early in the morning, I hated being forced to run outside, usually I would crash in the afternoon so I would usually take a nap or another stimulant, but I'm just so full of energy now I could never have imagined feeling this way before trying it.

6) About 80% of the protein I consume that isn't some type of protein supplement comes from canned tuna. Aside from the presence of mercury which is added by the environment instead of intentionally, please tell me where you got your ridiculous assumption that advertisements and marketing have confused me and manipulated me into eating stuff without any consideration for what I put in my body? Here you just start becoming a pretentious jackass.

Look dude, you're not some enlightened guru. It'd be one thing if the things you're spouting we're actually correct, but to be wrong and clearly proud of it results in me being both embarrassed for you and angry that you might actually be allowed to have children and raise them according to whatever fucked up logic you use (if you haven't already, in which case please pass my condolences to your children).

There's a point at which I have to say, "Okay, I tried but it's clear that this person wants to remain willfully ignorant." This is that point. When you're ready to be an adult and respond to my arguments as I make them instead of going through a process of ignore-fabricate-replace-argue, then I'll continue to engage in this debate. How can I possibly respond to your argument when the topic of argument shifts at your whim every paragraph?

I'm not an enlightened 'guru' but I am enlightened and open minded. At one point in your life no doubt you were eating at fast food restaurants, Burger King, McDonalds, etc, because everyone else you knew ate it, and you saw advertisements in TV about it, thought it was the normal thing to do. Fair enough, I did the same, going through drive-thru's, eating 'happy meals' and such. Then you got information from somewhere that fastfood wasn't good for you, so you stopped eating them or stopped frequenting them as much.

MOST people aren't like you though. Unfortunately the majority of people will never learn to research information on the foods they eat or what effects it has on their health. Some people know junk food is bad for them, smoking is bad for them, fast food is bad for them, etc, but take it anyway because they're not thinking of long-term results.

Let me know why it's okay to overfish the tuna population, torture innocent fish then slit their throats causing excrutiating pain upon death, cause extinction, etc, just so you can have your can of tuna for that day or whatever.

Yeah dude let's kill off the entire ocean and make all fish extinct! Screw the next generation growing up, let's use up all our natural resources, cut down all the trees, destroy the Amazon rain forest, screw up the environment, just so people can have heart attacks, die at a younger age, become obese, get cancer, mercury poisoning, etc!

Taking care of the planet starts with personal responsibility.

You're a complete waste of my time. Done with this debate. You are, by far, one of the most horrible debaters I've ever had the displeasure of meeting. You totally lack the ability to respond directly to a point and instead need to resort to making up other people's arguments for them, and then insult them to death by assuming they're too stupid not to notice. As a result, this entire thread is a transcript of you arguing against yourself and the countless counterpositions that you fabricate. Congrats, you're crazy.

You're a complete waste of my time. Done with this debate. You are, by far, one of the most horrible debaters I've ever had the displeasure of meeting. You totally lack the ability to respond directly to a point and instead need to resort to making up other people's arguments for them, and then insult them to death by assuming they're too stupid not to notice. As a result, this entire thread is a transcript of you arguing against yourself and the countless counterpositions that you fabricate. Congrats, you're crazy.

So I'm one of the 'most horrible' but not the most horrible debater you've ever met. Who is that?

The Joint, like I said, let me know what I'm doing wrong. If I am so wrong you should be able to refute my points easily. You want to give me a guide on debating so I can follow your guidelines? You want me to stop posting pictures when debating against you? We can start from the beginning, you give me a guideline to follow, and you start off the debate, I'll follow the guideline to the best of my ability, and you can let me know if I do anything wrong.

You're a complete waste of my time. Done with this debate. You are, by far, one of the most horrible debaters I've ever had the displeasure of meeting. You totally lack the ability to respond directly to a point and instead need to resort to making up other people's arguments for them, and then insult them to death by assuming they're too stupid not to notice. As a result, this entire thread is a transcript of you arguing against yourself and the countless counterpositions that you fabricate. Congrats, you're crazy.

'Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.' — Mark Twain