I ran across this interesting little gem in my Bible reading recently. I was in Ephesians Chapter Two, and read an interesting commentary on verse 12.

Here is Ephesians 2:12 -- "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:"

My Defender's Bible, with commentary by Henry Morris, says that in the Greek "without God" is "atheos." He goes on to say that it is the only occurrence of that word in the New Testament. That perked my ears up, because along with the "law of first mention" we should pay special attention to anything that stands alone or apart in the Bible. God put it there for a reason.

Obviously, and I checked this out in a secular dictionary, atheos is the root for our word today for atheist. The dictionary, however, fails to give the full meaning in its definition. Dictionaries will say that an atheist is someone who denies there is a God.

God, however, tells us in Ephesians that an atheist is someone who not only denies God, but who has no hope. By denying God and lacking the status of being a child of God through Christ, atheists not only must live their lives without God, but they must suffer the consequences of God denying them.

So, according to Ephesians 2:12, instead of saying an atheist is one who denies there is a God, it would be more proper to say an atheist is one who is denied by God. An atheist doesn't believe in God, and God does not believe in the atheist. He is a non-person to God.

It's not to say that the atheist can never recover from the terrible tragedy of being a non-person in God's eyes. With the atheist's repentance, and a turning of the heart toward Jesus, God will very willingly and gladly adopt him as one of his children.

Personally, I find the prospect of being denied by God to be pretty scary. I wouldn't want to live with that. Or, die with that, for that matter.

I ran across this interesting little gem in my Bible reading recently. I was in Ephesians Chapter Two, and read an interesting commentary on verse 12.

Here is Ephesians 2:12 -- "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:"

My Defender's Bible, with commentary by Henry Morris, says that in the Greek "without God" is "atheos." He goes on to say that it is the only occurrence of that word in the New Testament. That perked my ears up, because along with the "law of first mention" we should pay special attention to anything that stands alone or apart in the Bible. God put it there for a reason.

Obviously, and I checked this out in a secular dictionary, atheos is the root for our word today for atheist. The dictionary, however, fails to give the full meaning in its definition. Dictionaries will say that an atheist is someone who denies there is a God.

God, however, tells us in Ephesians that an atheist is someone who not only denies God, but who has no hope. By denying God and lacking the status of being a child of God through Christ, atheists not only must live their lives without God, but they must suffer the consequences of God denying them.

So, according to Ephesians 2:12, instead of saying an atheist is one who denies there is a God, it would be more proper to say an atheist is one who is denied by God. An atheist doesn't believe in God, and God does not believe in the atheist. He is a non-person to God.

It's not to say that the atheist can never recover from the terrible tragedy of being a non-person in God's eyes. With the atheist's repentance, and a turning of the heart toward Jesus, God will very willingly and gladly adopt him as one of his children.

Personally, I find the prospect of being denied by God to be pretty scary. I wouldn't want to live with that. Or, die with that, for that matter.

Dave

Former atheists like C S Lewis and Malcolm Muggeridge with their conversion proves that very point that with their acceptance of Jesus they are no longer denied by God.

I ran across this interesting little gem in my Bible reading recently. I was in Ephesians Chapter Two, and read an interesting commentary on verse 12.

Here is Ephesians 2:12 -- "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:"

My Defender's Bible, with commentary by Henry Morris, says that in the Greek "without God" is "atheos." He goes on to say that it is the only occurrence of that word in the New Testament. That perked my ears up, because along with the "law of first mention" we should pay special attention to anything that stands alone or apart in the Bible. God put it there for a reason.

Obviously, and I checked this out in a secular dictionary, atheos is the root for our word today for atheist. The dictionary, however, fails to give the full meaning in its definition. Dictionaries will say that an atheist is someone who denies there is a God.

God, however, tells us in Ephesians that an atheist is someone who not only denies God, but who has no hope. By denying God and lacking the status of being a child of God through Christ, atheists not only must live their lives without God, but they must suffer the consequences of God denying them.

So, according to Ephesians 2:12, instead of saying an atheist is one who denies there is a God, it would be more proper to say an atheist is one who is denied by God. An atheist doesn't believe in God, and God does not believe in the atheist. He is a non-person to God.

It's not to say that the atheist can never recover from the terrible tragedy of being a non-person in God's eyes. With the atheist's repentance, and a turning of the heart toward Jesus, God will very willingly and gladly adopt him as one of his children.

Personally, I find the prospect of being denied by God to be pretty scary. I wouldn't want to live with that. Or, die with that, for that matter.

Dave

I know what you mean. Some people simply can't understand why anyone would choose to be an atheist, given that atheists believe that no authority is governing this blind uncaring universe, and their consciousness will be snuffed out of existence at the same time their physical brain stops working. Who would want to believe such a morbid existence?

Religion, I think, thrives on the desire for there to be something more, something greater. Most people desperately want their lives to be ultimately important. And they certainly don't want to belong to the same ferocious cycle of life and death that you see everywhere else on the planet.

It takes a peculiar mind to face the grim seeming reality. It takes a mind disciplined to believe only the reasonable truth, and not wishful fancy. This discipline, I think, supplies the pride that is otherwise missing among atheists. They believe themselves to be among the elite who can discern the truth from the enslaving common religions.

But this can be its own source of delusion, as atheists are still vulnerable to non-religious ideologies and bad theories.

Reality is all of creation, plus the supernatural ... like God, the angels, Satan and demonic spirits. Atheists view only a partial reality, this present material world .. and yes, living with that worldview would be rather grim.

It takes a mind disciplined to believe only the reasonable truth, and not wishful fancy.

One of my favorite sayings is scientists who rely only on materialistic naturalism are doing science with half their brain tied behind their back. There is no "truth" without recognizing all of reality.

This discipline, I think, supplies the pride that is otherwise missing among atheists.

Yes. Pride. Definitely at the top of God's list of things he hates. Pride is the root of all sin. Did you ever wonder why the saying, "There are no atheists in foxholes," stands true? A person is humbled by angry lead flying his way bent on his annihilation. That humility allows him to seek God, who hates the prideful spirit. I'd guess that for most atheists, pride is the main factor preventing them from coming to the Lord.

They believe themselves to be among the elite who can discern the truth ...

There is nothing special about non-believers. In fact, in various shades of gray, even most self-called "Christians" will be among those who Jesus says he never knew.

... from the enslaving common religions.

Assuming you don't mean to say that Christianity is one among all equal religions, the Christian religion is not at all enslaving. It is the most free that anyone can be while residing on planet Earth. And afterwards ... well, I'd hate to be in anyone's shoes who doesn't accept Christ as their savior before it's too late.

But this can be its own source of delusion, as atheists are still vulnerable to non-religious ideologies and bad theories.

Many self-called Christians, too.

Also, it is my considered personal belief that there is no such thing as an atheist. All humans are born knowing there is a God. Tempest, you know that God is the God of the universe, God of the Bible, God of those who accept Him. The difference between you and me is that because of pride, intellectualism, or whatever, you deny God.

While there might still be hope for the God-denier, the danger is that eventually God will tire of his "stiff-neckedness" and turn him over to his own desires, with no possibility of turning back. Read what happend to Pharoah in the account of the Israelites' deliverance from Egypt.

Something else to keep in mind. No matter how much the non-believer denies God, he will eventually bow to Him and worship Him. But, it will be too late. God will deny him, and send him to his "reward."

Rom 14:11-12 For it is written, (as) I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Yes. Pride. Definitely at the top of God's list of things he hates. Pride is the root of all sin. Did you ever wonder why the saying, "There are no atheists in foxholes," stands true? A person is humbled by angry lead flying his way bent on his annihilation. That humility allows him to seek God, who hates the prideful spirit. I'd guess that for most atheists, pride is the main factor preventing them from coming to the Lord.

I have wondered about that truth, "there are no atheists in foxholes." It is not that I accept it as true absolutely. There is an US organization of atheist military members (called "Atheists in Foxholes"), and they claim it is a lie. And of course some of the deadliest wars in the 20th century have been fought with communists (atheists) being on one side or the other. But I do accept the maxim conditionally. Atheists are a lot less likely to join the military (in modern western republics) than religious people. Religious people tend to be nationalists that idolize "our troops," while atheists are more likely to be anti-war pacifists or isolationists who demonize "the military-industrial complex."

If it were all about pride, I figure there would be hardly a better way to gain pride than to join the military. If you think military veterans are a humble bunch of folk, then you are getting a far different perception than me. The few, the humble, the marines? I noticed the way they talk and hold their backs straight and talk down to those who haven't been in the service. Not a humble lot. As for atheists staying out of foxholes, I think it is more about liberal ideologies, lack of patriotism, and preserving one's own life.

I know you said more than that, but I try to focus on one topic in depth than to glaze many topics at once.

OK, we can talk about pride. It might be hard for someone outside of the military to understand, but humility is the essense of service. Every grunt who's ever gone through boot camp knows that from day one the goal is to break the inner link to "self." The "one" must be submissive to the "whole." A prideful spirit definitely gets in the way of that, and must be eliminated, or the recruit will have to wash out.

Seemingly oxymoronic, that soldier who is humbled then has the right to be "proud," to stand tall before his fellow men because he is so humble that he would die for them. Make sense?

I agree with you that atheists don't, as a whole, join the military. For the reasons mentioned above, they shouldn't. They don't belong there, and will bring down the level of commitment, sacrifice and professionalism.

So too, then, the one who comes to the Lord in humility. The one who gives up everything to God becomes the freest person on Earth.

I have wondered about that truth, "there are no atheists in foxholes." It is not that I accept it as true absolutely. There is an US organization of atheist military members (called "Atheists in Foxholes"), and they claim it is a lie. And of course some of the deadliest wars in the 20th century have been fought with communists (atheists) being on one side or the other. But I do accept the maxim conditionally. Atheists are a lot less likely to join the military (in modern western republics) than religious people. Religious people tend to be nationalists that idolize "our troops," while atheists are more likely to be anti-war pacifists or isolationists who demonize "the military-industrial complex."

If it were all about pride, I figure there would be hardly a better way to gain pride than to join the military. If you think military veterans are a humble bunch of folk, then you are getting a far different perception than me. The few, the humble, the marines? I noticed the way they talk and hold their backs straight and talk down to those who haven't been in the service. Not a humble lot. As for atheists staying out of foxholes, I think it is more about liberal ideologies, lack of patriotism, and preserving one's own life.

I know you said more than that, but I try to focus on one topic in depth than to glaze many topics at once.

Freedom is not free. It is given to those who earn it. God is about freedom even though to some it does not seem that way as Joe Christian tries to stuff the Gospel down everyone's throat. But, Joe Christian does not understand that it makes God look more like a cult god than the real one. Cults are always about control. The real God is not. This is why a choice was given to the first man and woman.

And in the Old Testament, when God's chosen would stray. God would allow them to lose their freedom by allowing their freedom to be taken away. And when he liberated them. He gave it back. So God is about freedom, it just that some of His followers don't get it.

Like in the New Testament. Christ never chased anyone. He gave them the choice, if they refused He allowed it and continued.

So the reason Christians fight and support the military is because freedom always comes at a cost. Because those who want total control will gain it if freedom is not defended.

OK, we can talk about pride. It might be hard for someone outside of the military to understand, but humility is the essense of service. Every grunt who's ever gone through boot camp knows that from day one the goal is to break the inner link to "self." The "one" must be submissive to the "whole." A prideful spirit definitely gets in the way of that, and must be eliminated, or the recruit will have to wash out.

Seemingly oxymoronic, that soldier who is humbled then has the right to be "proud," to stand tall before his fellow men because he is so humble that he would die for them. Make sense?

I agree with you that atheists don't, as a whole, join the military. For the reasons mentioned above, they shouldn't. They don't belong there, and will bring down the level of commitment, sacrifice and professionalism.

So too, then, the one who comes to the Lord in humility. The one who gives up everything to God becomes the freest person on Earth.

Dave

It is kinda hard for me to make sense of. Maybe a service member has to be humble before his comrades and commanding officers, but he can be proud around everyone else? A big part of the confusion I think is that society values both pride and humility, which are opposites of each other. It is perhaps a nuanced subject, but often what I see is just a lot of doublethink.

I know what you mean. Some people simply can't understand why anyone would choose to be an atheist, given that atheists believe that no authority is governing this blind uncaring universe, and their consciousness will be snuffed out of existence at the same time their physical brain stops working. Who would want to believe such a morbid existence?Religion, I think, thrives on the desire for there to be something more, something greater. Most people desperately want their lives to be ultimately important. And they certainly don't want to belong to the same ferocious cycle of life and death that you see everywhere else on the planet.It takes a peculiar mind to face the grim seeming reality. It takes a mind disciplined to believe only the reasonable truth, and not wishful fancy. This discipline, I think, supplies the pride that is otherwise missing among atheists. They believe themselves to be among the elite who can discern the truth from the enslaving common religions. But this can be its own source of delusion, as atheists are still vulnerable to non-religious ideologies and bad theories.

Having had been an atheist, I understand why one chooses to be so. Paul is quite succinct in his description of that reason in Romans chapter one. But, to think that no one is governing this Ã¢â‚¬Å“blind uncaring universeÃ¢â‚¬Â, is not only illogical, but self defeating as well. In order to make such a statement, you are in effect saying that you have all knowledge (but, where is your proof for this)! In making such a statement, you are claiming that you know how this universe originated and what is beyond it (etcÃ¢â‚¬Â¦). Then, in the second half of the paragraph, you claim that Ã¢â‚¬Å“their consciousness will be snuffed out of existenceÃ¢â‚¬Â, as if you have the experience, and therefore the authority to make such a statement. Is there a certain omniscience youÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve attained that we should be aware of?

I find it odd that an atheist should even be concerned with metaphysical things. Seeing that the materialists mind (according to supposed Ã¢â‚¬Å“naturalÃ¢â‚¬Â opinion) is nothing but matter in motion. That all thought is nothing more than electrons firing across the brain. If this is the case, then that Ã¢â‚¬Å“ferocious cycle of lifeÃ¢â‚¬Â is all there is! And, therefore, when Hitler killed over 6 million Jews, it was nothing more than one bag of biological mass asserting its evolutionary right of Ã¢â‚¬Å“survival of the fittestÃ¢â‚¬Â over the weaker bags of biological mass.

So, why then, does the atheist even bother to debate the metaphysical if he doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t even believe it exists? Why do the atheists even bother to come to every theist site to argue? Could there be something to the metaphysical argument that has the atheist all worked up?

Everyone desires their lives to be important, for many different reasons. This is not at the exclusion of the atheist. But this goes back to my question above; why does the atheist bother? Is he looking for survival of the metaphysical fittest as well? And why would he do this? He doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t even think anything exists above the material plane!

Why does the atheist mind use the word truth, after all itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s just an arbitrary word that bends to the will of the user? (BTW: why does the atheist even use the word mind when he canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t even deal with the metaphysical concept of the word mind?). With the elitist attitudes shown by the atheists, one wonders why they even bother to borrow all these ideals from the theists to explain their lives. Could the atheists be, in fact, closet theists? Could the real delusion be that atheists cannot live as actual atheists? Are atheists really living their own little theistic lives?

Could the atheists be, in fact, closet theists? Could the real delusion be that atheists cannot live as actual atheists? Are atheists really living their own little theistic lives?

It all causes one to ponderÃ¢â‚¬Â¦.

Why do you think the cost for denying God is so high? A creature made in the image of God with the breath of life, with that life and breath they confirm the deity of God by reflecting His glory and majesty while simultaneously feverishly trying to scrub that image off because they want it their own way. If you are that interested in denying the obvious truth why would God grapple for you? He'll let you go at your own request.

Why do you think the cost for denying God is so high? A creature made in the image of God with the breath of life, with that life and breath they confirm the deity of God by reflecting His glory and majesty while simultaneously feverishly trying to scrub that image off because they want it their own way. If you are that interested in denying the obvious truth why would God grapple for you? He'll let you go at your own request.

Hey Adam,

You know the paragraph was said somewhat tongue-in-cheek, and was a retorical device.... Right?!?

The majority of atheists will deny to their dying breath that they ARE NOT crypto-theists (Though the scriptures say otherwise)

I never heard the word "crypto-thiest" before but yeah the more I listen to atheists discuss 'reason' and 'free-thought' the more the Bible makes sense of what we're looking at in this goofy world.

I went to an atheist site, today, just to get a refresher and I'm amazed how they are drawn to Christians like moths to a flame. I think atheists think about God more then many Christians.

Except they think about God more with hate and not love. Hate consumes you. It's what drives them to defend their theory, as they feel the need to go to every Christian forum they can find because evolution is their only weapon and justification for not believng in God or His creation. If that were removed, they would have no justification for not believing and they would come face to face with having to ponder God.

As I heard one pastor say, and he was not refering to evolution when he said this. But speaking of reason: An excuse is a lie that is cloaked in reason. Now how much reason does it take to explain evolution? That's why half the time you cannot get a yes or no answer, but a half hour lecture of reason.

Except they think about God more with hate and not love. Hate consumes you. It's what drives them to defend their theory, as they feel the need to go to every Christian forum they can find because evolution is their only weapon and justification for not believng in God or His creation. If that were removed, they would have no justification for not believing and they would come face to face with having to ponder God.

You're right but what about atheists who demand how free they are? I know without a standard, the claims of being, "a good person" is really moot but the darlings of atheism are mild mannered grandma, grandpa types from the 60's.

This lady I was talking with yesterday, you looked at her picture, and she reminded me of a person that would probably agree with many things you said, face to face, (to avoid confrontation) but the moment she goes online the teeth come out.

I mean she is a moderator on one of the most militant atheist sites out there. For all I know she even goes to mass at the request of her grand kids.

I didn't realize what a battlefield the internet was until I was invited to participate in forums. It's a real eye-opener.

As I heard one pastor say, and he was not refering to evolution when he said this. But speaking of reason: An excuse is a lie that is cloaked in reason. Now how much reason does it take to explain evolution? That's why half the time you cannot get a yes or no answer, but a half hour lecture of reason.

Well, when the logic requires circular reasoning, you want to make those circles as big as possible.

Hey Ikester,

I wanted to share this article on this forum and this is probably the best place to put it. Judy shared it with me and I must say it was rather interesting. Let me know what you think. It was written by an atheist for atheists and Christians. I obviously don't agree with all of the authors points but it does have an interesting approach.

Be warned that some of the content may be offensive but from what I remember it wasn't over the top:

I never heard the word "crypto-thiest" before but yeah the more I listen to atheists discuss 'reason' and 'free-thought' the more the Bible makes sense of what we're looking at in this goofy world.I went to an atheist site, today, just to get a refresher and I'm amazed how they are drawn to Christians like moths to a flame. I think atheists think about God more then many Christians.

I was listening to a debate between Dr. Greg Bahnsen (I mentioned him previously, and although heÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s a presuppositional apologist, heÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s very bright and real good) and George Smith (an atheist of note). This is where I gained a definitive understanding of crypto-theism. If I can find the link, IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ll drop it here, I have the debate on mp3 segments.

I spend a lot of time lurking on atheist sites, just listening in. Just to see the thought processes. And you know what IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve found out? When I link to that "anticreationist debate tactics" site in ikesters signature, it it spells out pretty clearly whatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s going onÃ¢â‚¬Â¦.

When I link to that "anticreationist debate tactics" site in ikesters signature, it it spells out pretty clearly whatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s going onÃ¢â‚¬Â¦.

What exactly is it that you think is going on out there, de skudd?

Also, instead of just lurking on atheist boards, why not participate?

One of the reasons my poor brother Adam feels so persecuted when he goes on freeratio.org is because there are so few quality fundamentalists who are willing to stick around and debate with us over there. So when a creationist of his caliber shows up, the conversation tends to get very lively, and Adam ends up feeling attacked. Maybe if two of you went over there, you'd be able to give each other moral support.

One of the reasons my poor brother Adam feels so persecuted when he goes on freeratio.org is because there are so few quality fundamentalists who are willing to stick around and debate with us over there. So when a creationist of his caliber shows up, the conversation tends to get very lively, and Adam ends up feeling attacked. Maybe if two of you went over there, you'd be able to give each other moral support.

The reason most of us whom have been around the bend of debating atheists on several forums and blogs, no longer wish to participate on most forums and blogs run by you guys. Is because most of the members their cannot post without some type of snide remark. Like one blog I just came from where a new member (a creationist) posted only once and was asked by a atheist: Can you prove to me you are not brain damaged? Which had nothing to do with the subject.

How can one debate with people who have such an attitude, and will never participate in a debate unless they let you know how much of a moron you are just because you disagree with them? We get tired of that, and no amount of people going to a forum or blog is going to stop it when the one who runs it, allows it and supports it. That is why we have the strict rules here. We don't want to be like every other forum that has to allow what the atheist wants to do, which is not scientific what so ever, so that they will join in droves.

We are not after quanity here, but quality of the debates. If an atheist cannot follow the rules which allows evolution and creation to be debated on a more equal and level ground. Then they don't need to be here. We kick both evolutionists and creationists off this board for the same reason. It just more atheists get kicked off because they think they have to show disrespect to the ones who run it, and defy authority when warned.

If 10 people from here showed up at the forum you speak of, do you think they would straighten up? Nope. And it's the very reason we won't go.

Besides, smart creationists always gauge a forum by reading what goes on there before they join. If the evolutionists there are calling all creationists: Brain damaged, uneducated, ignorant, morons, flat earthers, etc... It's good enough reason I would not debate there myself.

As you know I can match what they do, and I would get kicked off for doing it. And I don't need to get into that frame of mind to compete in a debate. Because all it is, is a one up game. where who the best mocker or name caller wins. And what is so scientific about that? Nothing, it's a child's game. So why is it done? When they cannot compete on the same level as what they are debating against, and they have a "I can never be wrong attitude" they resort to the next best tactic. Which is to bring their debate opponent down to their level and lower so that they can look smarter. Even though they did not accomplish this scientifically.

One of the reasons my poor brother Adam feels so persecuted when he goes on freeratio.org is because there are so few quality fundamentalists who are willing to stick around and debate with us over there. So when a creationist of his caliber shows up, the conversation tends to get very lively, and Adam ends up feeling attacked. Maybe if two of you went over there, you'd be able to give each other moral support.

Because I've found less rationality and more Ã¢â‚¬Å“close mindednessÃ¢â‚¬Â at most every atheist site I've been to (I won't make any free thinker cracks at this point). If you take a gander at the link "anticreationist debate tactics." in the signature block in ikester's posts, youÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ll see what I've come to expect at those forums.

I've spent a fair amount of time debating in these types of forums over the last few years and found that I learn more watching and listening than participating in the baiting tactics and general overall lack of respect of others opinion there. But, if you could suggest a forum that would change my mind, I'm all ears.

Don't get me wrong; when I talk with atheist, agnostics and/or skeptics face to face, it's much more cordial (especially in one-one situations). Things IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve not found in most forumsÃ¢â‚¬Â¦.

I don't regret going to FRDB for one minute and I completely agree with de_skudd. When I found that link in Ikester's signature I was amazed at how accurately it pinned the evolution/creation debate. I've read it like three times.

Judy, you have to pick your battles and when groups of atheists think its just good intellectual exercise to run off topic and pull the Christian in every which direction with no regard for their own forum rules, it gets old. You read that thread I participated in the other day. One of the head Mods (the grandma) and one of the most loyal members had no regard for their own rules just a consorted effort to pull me into their endless confusion.

Seriously guys, I just mentioned Voltaire to a guy who claimed that his duty was to destroy fundamentalist Christianity and the Grandma Agnostic, I mentioned, was bent on giving me a history lesson to show me how smart she was. Oh, and then she demanded that I answer ALL her points. What a time waster.

I've actually noticed that the way conversations are managed here is refreshing and I have had my hand slapped several times publicly and privately by Ikester. I think he's actually harder on the Christians here than the atheists.

Besides, have you noticed that there are several Atheist/agnostics that participate here? I was actually surprised and even refreshed to see that I was in several dialogues where the Atheists outnumbered the Christians. It was nice because I realized that the owners here walk the talk and make this a place for real rational debate not just "rational debate" in name only.