So, I thought this might be an interesting discussion to have among the story writers of EL. It's been discussed off-and-on a few times before in the last three years or so, but I don't think there was ever a specific thread for it. I was just interested in hearing what the new writers think about the cultures present in Seridia and Irilion, as well as the races. This isn't meant to be an "official" thread... just a "discussion and speculation, with arguments and questions" kind of thread.

I remember a couple of years back, when Roja was first discussing the race descriptions of the Orchans, she was linking them with the Native American Indian culture, with shamans and tribalistic beliefs. I think we added honour as one of their core values, after Saii's "History of the Lands" described them as such. I admit, I was thinking of and wanted to add in the honour-bound Japanese samurai/ninja clan culture to the Orchans as well. What do you guys think? What would a mix of Native American/Japanese samurai culture be like? And would that suit the Orchans?

And what about the other races/political entities?

When crafting the Tales of Irilion and the background politics, I was envisioning the Idal Empire as a parallel to the ancient Roman Empire (legions, prefectures, etc... as well as a whole bunch of Roman-sounding names). Did that come across well? And for the Draegoni, I was thinking of the (Asian) Indians as a base for their culture. A caste system based on the colour of their scales, highly spiritual and mystical, pacifistic by philosophy, etc. That's why the Sacred Caves of Bethel story sounded the way it did. Would that be an interesting culture to have for the Draegoni? What do you think?

And what about the elves, dwarves and gnomes? Dwarves have some traditional associations with either Celtic highlanders or Norse Viking cultures. Elves are sort of fixed as nature-loving archers (unless someone wants to dispute that?) What about the Gnomes, though? I don't think there's a set culture for gnomes yet. Anyone have thoughts on what sort of cultures might be interesting?

And all that is just based on races. Do you think there could be different cultures even among the same race, on different continents? (Eg. Compare English and French cultures to American and Canadian cultures... same root stock, but how different. Or Spain and the Latin American countries.) What kind of differences would you like to see?

Just to provoke some discussion. Anyone is welcome to give an opinion.

Developing cultural aspects of the races some more is good. The basis of all the races are already all outlined though. I suppose what could be needed are details, and even some more visual representations of their cultures in the maps, which i'm wanting to do so some more ideas for stuff can surely help.

The Gnomes seem to me to be sort of like the ancient chinese, always inventing things. I also have heard (I dont know if this is true) that they were also somewhat short. The main area where gnomes are from, also seems mysterious, unless I am forgetting something, just like China to the Europiens.

Hmm... that's an interesting idea. Gnomes based on Chinese culture, eh? Well, from what I remember of my fantasy, gnomes were usually inventive, small-framed, mercenary (i.e. money-minded), and well-travelled. I think the original concept was based off the Jews or gypsy cultures. But since the Chinese are considered "the Jews of the East" (ironic as that sounds), it's seems to suit quite well. Plus, they invented gunpowder first. Oriental gnomish architecture?

I think of gnomes in the classical sense...in fact their culture is pretty much made up already, as is all the races..at least I have them all in my mind and wrote down their race descriptions:http://www.eternal-l.../page/races.php

Their architecture comes up in the buildings that have already been made. I suppose it's just some added details that are needed now. And I'm open to suggestions on that.

I could see gnomes being more related to the ancient chinese vs. Gypsies. I always pictured gypsies as the nomadic sort of people, and all our races seem to stay in one area. We do lack a nomadic sort-of race anyways

From what I've seen, gnomes hate to be poked, they're fascinated with shiny things, which would contribute to their love of money, they have astronomical noses, and their ancient language consists of merping and meeping sounds.

No one talks about humans? How can it be?! I think humans should be discussed too. Because it's becoming too bothering to see humans as the ones that can do a bit of everything. As Roja wrote, they can build big cities and they use all they can take advantage of. So I imagine they have a high level of architecture, which leads to South/Central Europe or USA. I'm getting closer to Europe because it has bigger past. And it leads me to Middle ages! So I imagine Humans as very religious people. They kill a lot to spread their ideas of the one and only right life (crusades). Thats how I imagine Human race.

Note: Most of the post is explaining and you can read just last two senteces to get what I think of humans

Apologies for reviving an older topic, but I just got my forum account, and this really interests me. So, I'd like to add a few notes. Sorry for the length, but I wanted to touch on all 6 races at once. Thanks for your patience.

All the races in EL seem to follow their European folkloric origins, except Draegoni and Orchans, which are modern inventions, though there are still traditional/IRL sources that can be used for them. So, starting with the official race descriptions and looking at traditional lore:

1) Humans are human. We know how they operate (I guess). Relating to the other races, Humans traditionally have a little distrust but also a fascination and willingness to learn and make friends. The Humans of EL belong to the medieval world, which covers all races and many religions, but generally prefers a strong social structure based on class and hierarchy. Humans will tend to be either "civilized" -- living in towns, following laws, belonging to official groups like army, government, or church -- or they'll be "barbarians" -- living in the wilderness, outside the law, forming tribes or bandit/mercenary gangs. Humans like order and structure and tend to impose it on anything that feels too wild or uncontrolled. Sometimes Humans will get into vicious fights, even wars, over what kind of order is best. In general, Humans are curious, adventurous, inventive, and ambitious.

2) Dwarves are small statured people intensely connected to the earth and its energies. They have magical/semi-magical abilities to find ores, mineral deposits and buried treasure. As a result, Dwarves are usually rich or getting rich. Dwarves are masters of manipulating the earth's resources, so they are master smiths and crafters. They have amazing physical strength and muscles as hard as rocks, but their attitudes can also be set in stone. They are often stubborn. They are proud of their heritage, and clan means everything to them. They are powerful warriors, preferring melee combat with a good solid axe or hammer in their hands. They enjoy drinking, feasting, fighting, and hard work for good pay. Their culture is solidly nordic/germanic, based on personal achievement, amplified by ale-fueled boasting (a cultural tradition).

3) Elves are connected to the spirits of nature. They are mostly tall, ethereal-looking people, but sometimes there are extreme variations in how they look -- in EL, this shows in their different skin colors. They see themselves as the stewards of the natural world. They protect the environment, and sometimes can be vindictive against someone they think treats the land badly. Elves have keen senses, especially sight and hearing. They can be judgmental and arrogant, but they can also be honorable, loyal, friendly, and fun-loving -- it kind of depends on their mood. In war, Elves are deadly archers and skilled swordsmen. I think, for EL, the Celtic culture is best for Elves, especially the Welsh Mabinogion tales. It has them living close to the land, involved with weather and the elements, keepers of secret lore/knowledge/history, and using magic in their daily lives, especially in the building of their towns and castles. Elfen social structure is based on aristocratic families.

4) Gnomes, in folklore, are a kind of urbanized pixie/elf/dwarf type character, small and light in stature, often wearing glasses or appearing very studious. They are the tailors, cobblers, tinkers, etc. -- semi-magical masters of all the basic (non-magic) skills and trades that humans also use. Gnomes are inventive and energetic, into science, technology, and education. Their cities are bustling little hubs of commerce. Usually, their only interest in warfare is the invention of new weapons, armors, castle defenses, etc. When they do go to war, they'll have all the newest, state of the art equipment. Their social structure is democratic, without a class system, maybe a meritocracy at most. They like life to be comfortable and easy -- small, round little homes with all modern conveniences, comfy clothes, etc. A good culture model might be the medieval trade guild system, or later 18th century trade associations, social clubs (like freemasons), and Protestant societies (like the Quakers) in Scandanavia, Britain and North America. I'm not sure, but I think Gnomes come from Scandanavian folklore.

5) Draegoni are associated with dragons, so their culture could be based on dragon lore. If we mix a little of Europe and Asia, we could say the Draegoni are wise. That would be their most outstanding attribute. They are philosophers, scientists, keepers of libraries and schools where highly advanced skills are taught. Legends say they are descended from dragon gods and that they have vast wealth and know where all the treasures of the world are hidden. Very tall, strong, exotic looking, Draegoni have magic in their very bones, even if they're not as into using magic as the Elves. They are pacifist in general, but maybe that's only because they do not care about what they see as the petty disputes of the other races. When they do go to war, they are strong, fierce and deadly. You do not want to make enemies of the Draegoni.

6) Orchans are kind of the ultimate "foreigners." People who come from a different land and a very, very different culture. The other races (the "mainstream") tell speculative tales about them (half human/half orc, etc). I see Orchans as the people who are native to the places the humans call "wilderness," which isn't wilderness to the Orchans at all. Since the Orchans come from the tropical islands (SRM and NRM), maybe the Pacific island cultures could be their model -- Hawaii, Samoa, etc. A big, strong, robust race of people who live in small clan-based villages supported by hunting and small farming, lead by warrior chieftans and shamanic religious leaders. Leadership is based on personal achievement, bravery, honor, and skills, with regular testing and trials to prove it. Warfare is a kind of sport to the Orchans, in which villages vie for social status against each other. Despite their warlike appearance, Orchans are generally friendly people who enjoy life's pleasures.

Roja, if you're most interested in images to add to enhance the cultures, here are some random ideas off the top of my head:

1) If Human culture is medieval-ish (except for all the parts that aren't ), religion and government are very important, so maybe there could be even more, and more elaborate, RP-style text messages upon entering public buildings. Maybe just mentioning the names of the rulers and locally revered gods more often.

Also, maybe bring some non-European details in -- for instance some Arabian style tents, weapons, lying about the desert of Bethel.

I think the rest are all pretty well done as they are. I always know if I'm in an Elf, Dwarf, Gnome, Draegoni, or Orchan town. At most I might add a few visual details, such as

-- Maybe some more shiny stuff in some Draegoni town interiors -- quartzes, ice sculptures -- to go with their sparkly scales and amazing hair colors. They're the most glamorous looking race in EL, but some of their houses are seriously rustic.

EDIT: Otherwise, I have to say, you've done an amazing job creating the Draia reality, Roja. The artwork and backgrounds of EL were among the top things that drew me to this game. Thanks for all your beautiful work!

Wow peino, you've got a good grasp on the races. have you been reading the official stories? As a story writer, and reader I'd like to respond a little to what you said

5) Draegoni are associated with dragons, so their culture could be based on dragon lore. If we mix a little of Europe and Asia, we could say the Draegoni are wise. That would be their most outstanding attribute. They are philosophers, scientists, keepers of libraries and schools where highly advanced skills are taught. Legends say they are descended from dragon gods and that they have vast wealth and know where all the treasures of the world are hidden. Very tall, strong, exotic looking, Draegoni have magic in their very bones, even if they're not as into using magic as the Elves. They are pacifist in general, but maybe that's only because they do not care about what they see as the petty disputes of the other races. When they do go to war, they are strong, fierce and deadly. You do not want to make enemies of the Draegoni.

This I quite agree with in most aspects, however, I don't know if I would defien the draegoni as pacifists. By no means am I suggesting they enjoy war and are always seeking it, but more they are those that go to war when need be, and no when it is time for peace. I always see them as being wiser in their wars than humans, not getting into conflicts over petty disputes, but neither do I see them as completely peacefull. I have always imagined them as a very proud race with ancient customs and knowledge I see them as veiwing themselves as slightly superior to others, be the race that lives the longest I think they would see themselves as wiser than all others. This is just a generalization, I don't veiw all draegonis as being so proud. But overall i think of them as a pridefull race, and pride always leads to trouble .

My apologies if I do not make sense... but that is bascially what i think of the draegonis

-- Maybe some more shiny stuff in some Draegoni town interiors -- quartzes, ice sculptures -- to go with their sparkly scales and amazing hair colors. They're the most glamorous looking race in EL, but some of their houses are seriously rustic.

Odd... both things that jumped out at me related to draegonis Anyway, I'd just like to mention that there are many things like this, there is even an throne made entirely out of crystal on a draegoni map. There are plenty of glamorous shiny things within the deep confines of those southern icy cities.

-edit-Another thing, you mentioned elves and their skill with archery and swords in combat, this tends to be the stereotypical definition of elves, And i rather disagree with it at times. I am currently thinking/wishingiwaswriting about an elvish character who has next to no skills in combat. You may have been saying that when they are warriors they are archers and swordsmen(woman ) not that all are warriors, but thats just my thinking on that subject. I also think that any elf could be perfectly capable of being able to weild and axe just as well as a sword. I tend to get annoyed with fantasy stereotypes of elves being far sighted archers and dwarves being grumpy ale loving axe weilders and other things like that and hope that EL can make some things slightly different about its fantasy races

Wow peino, you've got a good grasp on the races. have you been reading the official stories? As a story writer, and reader I'd like to respond a little to what you said

Thanks! Actually, I've only made a dent in the official stories so far, but am working on it, and am eager to offer my own contributions as well. I'm a fairly dedicated amateur writer as well, though fantasy is a new genre for me. I specialize in horror, with a foundation in RL mythologies. Right now, I am working on a story about Peino, and if it comes out well, I will post it one of these days.

This I quite agree with in most aspects, however, I don't know if I would defien the draegoni as pacifists. By no means am I suggesting they enjoy war and are always seeking it, but more they are those that go to war when need be, and no when it is time for peace. I always see them as being wiser in their wars than humans, not getting into conflicts over petty disputes, but neither do I see them as completely peacefull. I have always imagined them as a very proud race with ancient customs and knowledge I see them as veiwing themselves as slightly superior to others, be the race that lives the longest I think they would see themselves as wiser than all others. This is just a generalization, I don't veiw all draegonis as being so proud. But overall i think of them as a pridefull race, and pride always leads to trouble .

My apologies if I do not make sense... but that is bascially what i think of the draegonis

Actually, I totally agree with you. The pacificist reference comes directly from the official race description on the EL website. It struck me as odd, but since I'm so new, I felt it wasn't my place to contradict Radu and Roja. So I worked it in. However, I added that bit about indifference being the possible real reason for Draegoni possibly not joining in with the other races in their conflicts because I figured a race that sees itself as so far removed from (advanced beyond?) the others would have no interest in their "petty squabbles." You know, unless they felt insulted/threatened, or it was a matter of a personal alliance. But by all means, I think the Draegoni should have a complex, possibly competitive society (with all that pride floating about), so warfare and the status of warriors would play an important role.

Anyway, dragons are not seen as symbols of peace, but as symbols of strength, power, and vitality. I do question the description of the Draegoni as being "pacifist" or otherwise avoiding war.

It's funny what you say about the pride of the Draegoni and their status as the most long-lived and wisest, etc., as well as their pride (arrogance). Elves say the same things about themselves. Wouldn't it be funny if a cultural rivalry developed between Elves and Draegoni over such things? The Who's the Most Egotistical? Contest.

Odd... both things that jumped out at me related to draegonis Anyway, I'd just like to mention that there are many things like this, there is even an throne made entirely out of crystal on a draegoni map. There are plenty of glamorous shiny things within the deep confines of those southern icy cities.

Yes, I know, but I want more!!! *bangs fist on desk* More!!! The public areas in the Draegoni cities are fine, but some of the houses and other interiors look too Human-style to my taste, and some are as rustic as Hobbit houses, if there were such a thing as a Hobbit. I just can't see the proud Draegoni being satisfied with patchwork quilts and little wooden stools. As it is, the Orchans decorate their houses more to their own culture than the Draegoni often do, as far as I've seen in my wanderings.

-edit-Another thing, you mentioned elves and their skill with archery and swords in combat, this tends to be the stereotypical definition of elves, And i rather disagree with it at times. I am currently thinking/wishingiwaswriting about an elvish character who has next to no skills in combat. You may have been saying that when they are warriors they are archers and swordsmen(woman ) not that all are warriors, but thats just my thinking on that subject. I also think that any elf could be perfectly capable of being able to weild and axe just as well as a sword. I tend to get annoyed with fantasy stereotypes of elves being far sighted archers and dwarves being grumpy ale loving axe weilders and other things like that and hope that EL can make some things slightly different about its fantasy races

I was trying to describe the cultures in broad terms, covering all the major aspects of how they function in EL, so mention of fighting styles was necessary. I did not mean to imply that all members of any of the races do the same things or act the same way. All I meant was that archery and swords (and I meant the lighter blades, not the big heavy orcslayers) are Elf-style weapons, so if an Elf learns the martial arts within his/her own society, those are the weapons that would be traditionally taught. Notice that I also mentioned that Dwarves prefer axes and hammers and melee, but that is also a stereotype that does not apply to all Dwarves in Draia.

These specific stereotypical details about Elves and Dwarves come directly from the European folklore sources, and for that reason, I accept them as legitimate. That is the bottom line for me on all these fantasy character types -- the closer it is to the original folklore source, the better I like it. But in the original folklore, neither Dwarves nor Elves are primarily known as warriors. It's just that when they fight, these are their usually preferred type of weapons, because in the folklore those weapons were expressive of the nature of the beings.

I also talked about Gnomes and warfare, but in the original folklore sources about gnomes, they are not warlike at all, actively avoid conflict, and have no types of weapons associated with them. But I had to do something to account for all the heavily armed gnomes kicking butt all over Draia.

Thanks so much for your positive response. I'm an artist and (amateur) writer, and EL has really gotten me exciited about exploring new styles and making some new projects. *itchy, twitchy work fingers*

Oh, and by the way, killer Dragon Boat story -- kudos and congrats on that one to you. I've been thinking about illustrating it, but I've only got a handle on one image for one scene and I feel like it needs more (at least 3 images to cover the whole story). Don't know if I'll get anything in by the deadline, as I've got an upcoming art event to prepare for as well.

Thanks! Actually, I've only made a dent in the official stories so far, but am working on it, and am eager to offer my own contributions as well. I'm a fairly dedicated amateur writer as well, though fantasy is a new genre for me. I specialize in horror, with a foundation in RL mythologies. Right now, I am working on a story about Peino, and if it comes out well, I will post it one of these days.

Thats awesome EL could really use some more decent writers, and don't be afraid to post it whether you think it comes out well or not, other peoples opinions and advise always make my writing better.

Actually, I totally agree with you. The pacificist reference comes directly from the official race description on the EL website. It struck me as odd, but since I'm so new, I felt it wasn't my place to contradict Radu and Roja. So I worked it in. However, I added that bit about indifference being the possible real reason for Draegoni possibly not joining in with the other races in their conflicts because I figured a race that sees itself as so far removed from (advanced beyond?) the others would have no interest in their "petty squabbles." You know, unless they felt insulted/threatened, or it was a matter of a personal alliance. But by all means, I think the Draegoni should have a complex, possibly competitive society (with all that pride floating about), so warfare and the status of warriors would play an important role.

Roja rules the storylines but don't be afraid to present your own ideas there is not such thing as a bad idea, only one that roja dosn't like (which dosn't mean its bad )

I don't veiw draegonis as being to far removed from the other races, I do picture them as thinking themselves superior, but I also see them as thinking they are honor bound to assist when tragedy strikes draia as a whole.

It's funny what you say about the pride of the Draegoni and their status as the most long-lived and wisest, etc., as well as their pride (arrogance). Elves say the same things about themselves. Wouldn't it be funny if a cultural rivalry developed between Elves and Draegoni over such things? The Who's the Most Egotistical? Contest.

Conflicts between races and kingdoms are something that definately need to be worked on. The draegoni's and elves views of each other would dictate how they behaved when the meet in a story. It would be interesting for them to have a sort of rivalry. However the draegoni live approx 1,000 years, and elves about 800 this makes these two races by far the longest living, and I think that would cause them to have a certain special relationship.

Yes, I know, but I want more!!! *bangs fist on desk* More!!! The public areas in the Draegoni cities are fine, but some of the houses and other interiors look too Human-style to my taste, and some are as rustic as Hobbit houses, if there were such a thing as a Hobbit. I just can't see the proud Draegoni being satisfied with patchwork quilts and little wooden stools. As it is, the Orchans decorate their houses more to their own culture than the Draegoni often do, as far as I've seen in my wanderings.

Well I can't speak for the map makers, but i don't think they often go back and change already made maps.As one who as explored the depths of many draegoni cities and maps I think it works quite fine the way it is. I see the draegoni's as an odd mix of pride an honor. They're rather stuck up, but at the same time humble. They think they're better than you, but will welcome you kindly and are cordial. that is just my veiw of the draegoni

The gnomes: here is a nice little description roja gave me while I was working out Sarma's story:

As I mentioned they are much more care-free and less organized than humans would be. They are not the kind of people to have crime; although perhaps a petty theft every now and then-and most of the times an accidental one. So they live in peace with each other, although they can surely get into arguments, but it never escalated into violence. They're not warriors; although there can be an exception here or there(obviously the game world goes off on a separate tangent with many of these things).They are very friendly and unbiased towards all races-even monsters if the monsters won't hurt them. So they also try to settle in peaceful places, away from monsters which they are not good at defending themselves against...however if they do have to defend themselves, they do it with contraptions and devices they engineer. Fighting is a last resort for them. They are inventors, dabblers, artisans, craftsmen, pack-rats...that sort

Thats awesome EL could really use some more decent writers, and don't be afraid to post it whether you think it comes out well or not, other peoples opinions and advise always make my writing better.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Roja rules the storylines but don't be afraid to present your own ideas there is not such thing as a bad idea, only one that roja dosn't like (which dosn't mean its bad )

I don't veiw draegonis as being to far removed from the other races, I do picture them as thinking themselves superior, but I also see them as thinking they are honor bound to assist when tragedy strikes draia as a whole.

I guess my description of them came out a bit more extreme than what I was actually thinking, so, yeah, I think I'm pretty much on the same page as you. None of my business, really, since I'm an Elf, and all.

Conflicts between races and kingdoms are something that definately need to be worked on. The draegoni's and elves views of each other would dictate how they behaved when the meet in a story. It would be interesting for them to have a sort of rivalry. However the draegoni live approx 1,000 years, and elves about 800 this makes these two races by far the longest living, and I think that would cause them to have a certain special relationship.

Of course, due to the curse of deathlessness, all races are technically immortal, but I think the ancient traditions of their long lives would have a real effect on their cultures today, and maybe on how they deal with the deathlessness thing.

I'm of two minds about how to deal with that myself. In the in-character log Peino keeps (how I keep track of what I do in game), the deathlessness is real and affects the language Peino uses to talk about what happens around him, working as much of the game's real functions into as coherent an RP reality as I can.

On the other hand, I noticed that, aside from the Themes of Eternity, the stories I've read so far do not deal with the deathlessness issue at all. So I'm not sure whether to have it or not have it in the story I'm working on now.

Well I can't speak for the map makers, but i don't think they often go back and change already made maps.As one who as explored the depths of many draegoni cities and maps I think it works quite fine the way it is. I see the draegoni's as an odd mix of pride an honor. They're rather stuck up, but at the same time humble. They think they're better than you, but will welcome you kindly and are cordial. that is just my veiw of the draegoni

It's Roja's own fault for saying, above, that she was interested in visual clues to cultures to include in the game. To be honest, I think the cultures are represented visually just fine. At most, I might add more text messages attached to buildings and signs that repeat elements of the EL backstory, like rulers' names, laws, gods, etc., just to remind people of the general backstory that exists, however vaguely. But it's not really necessary, I guess.

The gnomes: here is a nice little description roja gave me while I was working out Sarma's story:

As I mentioned they are much more care-free and less organized than humans would be. They are not the kind of people to have crime; although perhaps a petty theft every now and then-and most of the times an accidental one. So they live in peace with each other, although they can surely get into arguments, but it never escalated into violence. They're not warriors; although there can be an exception here or there(obviously the game world goes off on a separate tangent with many of these things).They are very friendly and unbiased towards all races-even monsters if the monsters won't hurt them. So they also try to settle in peaceful places, away from monsters which they are not good at defending themselves against...however if they do have to defend themselves, they do it with contraptions and devices they engineer. Fighting is a last resort for them. They are inventors, dabblers, artisans, craftsmen, pack-rats...that sort

Ah, just what I was thinking. But it also goes back to my dilemma of how much to follow what happens in the game versus guiding a little what happens in the game. Right now, a lot of fighter players love to be gnomes. Ignore that, or work it in? I don't know.

Of course, due to the curse of deathlessness, all races are technically immortal, but I think the ancient traditions of their long lives would have a real effect on their cultures today, and maybe on how they deal with the deathlessness thing.

Actually, the curse is being reworked into something else. The races do have average ages.

Of course, due to the curse of deathlessness, all races are technically immortal, but I think the ancient traditions of their long lives would have a real effect on their cultures today, and maybe on how they deal with the deathlessness thing.

Actually, the curse is being reworked into something else. The races do have average ages.

Ah, just what I was thinking. But it also goes back to my dilemma of how much to follow what happens in the game versus guiding a little what happens in the game. Right now, a lot of fighter players love to be gnomes. Ignore that, or work it in? I don't know.

Game and stories must be some-what sepperated, afterall we can't go around explaining how everyone lives by walking only one speed

Besides, there are plenty of orchan and draegoni PKers as well. I think gnomes can just be gnomes for stories, and ignore the PK stuff. But you really should ask roja as that is just my opinion (and kinda how i've been writing)