Calla_Dragon wrote:Well, yes and no lol. This forum is much different from the norm in the sense that most of the people on there have known each other for 4-5 years and many people have met in real life. The conversation went on for 11 pages of posts lol. In the end, one of the anti-homeschoolers said they were going to revise their opinions based on things I said. The other anti-homeschooler just continued to twist my words and trying to claim things I never said to make homeschooling the opposite of what it is. He couldn't argue with me based on what I really said so he had to start making stuff up. He's a lawyer (nothing against lawyers) but it was classic of how lawyers try to fry people on the stand. I called him on that and he got really hostile toward me. All in all, an amusing conversation.

I am a member of two local forums like that. One is extremely popular because we have no "real" local newspaper and the man who owns it was a journalist, so we get the latest news there. Many of the most active people have met in real life and some just have nasty comments about nearly everything. The other forum is nicer, as that nastiness is not allowed, but not as popular. It seems the more drama there is, the more traffic a forum gets.

There are a few homeschoolers there with our own forum on each. Every once in a while we get some new (and old) people who like to make sport of going after the homeschoolers. We hold our own pretty well--BUT when we ever make a comment about homeschooling within the context of the thread but outside our own forum... well, let's just say that we are eaten for breakfast by the anti-homeschoolers on the more popular forum! How dare we "promote" homeschooling! Talk about it in our own little circle, but stay out of the all the others!

Yeah, there are definitely some strong attitudes against it, but I think once the majority of people get pass their preconceived concepts and see we are regular people, they are curious about how it works. Especially, when they observe the children, the mannerism of the children speak for itself.

This forum is a weird little place. First of all, it's private. You have to know a regular poster on the forum to be able to join and start posting. It's a private forum that one person set up after another community went under and a group of people wanted to stay together. All in all, it's a good place with good peeps, but there are a couple of areas where the discussions get knock down, drag out. You have to specificially request access to those areas too when you start so you have to know what you're getting into before you are even allowed to enter those areas. There is some good discussion that goes on, neat exchange of ideas, but there are also some very, very strong personalities there. Since I'm one of them, I do hold my own quite well but there are some people on the boards who won't venture into those places for that very reason - it gets too heated and sometimes people resort to personal attacks for a lack of anything else to say (i.e. when their arguement falls apart and they have nothing else to argue with).

To be idle is a short road to death and to be diligent is a way of life; foolish people are idle, wise people are diligent.

I enjoy a good heated debate. As long as you're making fun of the other person's argument and not them personally, it's good entertainment, imho. Plus, it can be quite educational so long as it doesn't degrade into "You're a @#$@ idiot! No, you are!" I've learned lots of things while researching for online debates.

I don't like debating though I was on my high school team and can do it well. It's simply not entertaining or fun for me.

I avoid conflicts and arguments of any kind.

I especially get angry over personal and unprovoked attacks at others.

I avoid what I consider to be "bad stress", whenever possible.

However, I do enjoy education. Therefore, when I see people who know little or nothing about homeschooling attacking an individual or the idea of it, I tend to step in. I may not "school" everyone or change everyone's mind but I do put out a reasoned and balance viewpoint so if the minds are open people can learn.

If folks could stick to the issues, and back up their arguments with facts, I would enjoy a debate. The problem is that most objections to HSing are personal attacks based on rumor and inaccurate assumptions.

One objection I hear is that a person knows a family that homeschools, and the kids all pick their nose, can't speak or read, and generally act like they were raised by wolves- and the first thing I think when I hear this is that the person is lying. I have homeschooled for 12+ years, and have yet to meet a 'weird' HSing family.

What is 'weird' is the institutional thinking that I perceive with folks who are staunch public school supporters.

Sunnymom wrote:One objection I hear is that a person knows a family that homeschools, and the kids all pick their nose, can't speak or read, and generally act like they were raised by wolves- and the first thing I think when I hear this is that the person is lying. I have homeschooled for 12+ years, and have yet to meet a 'weird' HSing family.

Honestly, this is what put me off of homeschooling for a long time. I was in the military with a few who had been homeschooled their entire lives, and they were some of the strangest, oddest people I have ever met. Absolutely no social skills, had a hard time with complex matters....I didn't want my children to turn out like these people.

I can understand how people think that this is normal for hs'ing if this type of example is what they meet. "Normal" homeschoolers don't stick out, the off the wall ones do.

"The greatest sign of success for a teacher... is to be able to say, "The children are now working as if I did not exist."
- M. MontessoriProud non-member of the HSLDA

Theodore wrote:The question is, are they homeschooling because they don't fit in, or do they not fit in because they homeschool?

Quite honestly I believe it was because they homeschooled. They were very secluded, very insulated from real world life. The way they spoke of their experiences did not sound like an optimal education for a child. I worked in a select career field and most of our character traits fit a profile of a sort - these two that were homeschooled stuck out like sore thumbs and simply couldn't handle integrating and working with a team. It was stressful for them. They were far behind in some areas of basic knowledge and logic, yet ahead in rote memorization.

Like I said, it's not something I would envision as ideal for a child. I refused to consider homeschooling until I had *that kid* that public school wouldn't work for and I could see other hs'ing families and how it worked for them.

"The greatest sign of success for a teacher... is to be able to say, "The children are now working as if I did not exist."

Theodore wrote:The question is, are they homeschooling because they don't fit in, or do they not fit in because they homeschool?

Quite honestly I believe it was because they homeschooled. They were very secluded, very insulated from real world life. The way they spoke of their experiences did not sound like an optimal education for a child. I worked in a select career field and most of our character traits fit a profile of a sort - these two that were homeschooled stuck out like sore thumbs and simply couldn't handle integrating and working with a team. It was stressful for them. They were far behind in some areas of basic knowledge and logic, yet ahead in rote memorization.

Like I said, it's not something I would envision as ideal for a child. I refused to consider homeschooling until I had *that kid* that public school wouldn't work for and I could see other hs'ing families and how it worked for them.

That struck me as very strange. I'd expect the exact opposite, if anything. Other than times tables, some math formulas, the period tables, writing and grammar rules, I don't encourage or push, rote memorization at all.

Sunnymom wrote:One objection I hear is that a person knows a family that homeschools, and the kids all pick their nose, can't speak or read, and generally act like they were raised by wolves- and the first thing I think when I hear this is that the person is lying. I have homeschooled for 12+ years, and have yet to meet a 'weird' HSing family.

Honestly, this is what put me off of homeschooling for a long time. I was in the military with a few who had been homeschooled their entire lives, and they were some of the strangest, oddest people I have ever met. Absolutely no social skills, had a hard time with complex matters....I didn't want my children to turn out like these people.

I can understand how people think that this is normal for hs'ing if this type of example is what they meet. "Normal" homeschoolers don't stick out, the off the wall ones do.

The problem is in assuming that weirdness is because of HSing- I mean, have none of us ever met someone who was socially inept and isolated who went to PS? Have you ever met someone who was dumber than a box of hammers that went to PS? Have you ever known someone who was not a 'team player' that went to PS? See where I am going here?

So why is it when someone meets an 'odd' HSing family, they are odd because of HSing and not because that is the way they would be in PS, HS, or colonizing Jupiter? It is intellectually dishonest to claim that some dysfunctional family is so because of HSing, not because they'd be that way regardless of what method of education they chose. It is like saying that you met someone who lived in a blue house that was weird, so all blue houses are homes of weird people, or blue houses cause people to be weird.

There are lots and lots of other people in the world, you have to fit in with society to some extent. That means good hygiene and respectable clothes, patriotism, being able to speak the primary language (in this case, English), and at least a minimum level of education. It does not mean, however, that you have to have the same interests or views on everything. That's where public school takes conformity too far.

There's also the whole issue of whether you should conform to society, or whether society should conform to you. Homeschoolers predominately choose the latter option, which is why so many homeschoolers end up in leadership positions in college. Leadership is more about focus and being 100% sure you're right, than about actually being right all the time (though in my opinion, homeschooling's superior education helps with that too) Public schoolers are often just too afraid to chance failure, since they've been made fun of for years and years every time they mess up. It's easier to let someone else make the tough decisions.

Personally, I don't mind taking orders from someone else, but they have to be someone I respect for their ability, not just their title. If I feel that the leader isn't doing a good job, I first point out to him how he can do better, and if that doesn't work, I do my best to replace him. This might not make me well-loved all the time, but the ultimate objective is to get the job done as well as possible, and a few hurt feelings are a small price to pay.

The reverse, of course, is that if there happens to be someone better at what I'm doing than myself, I let them help or take over. Leaders need to be a help, not a hindrance.

Theodore wrote:I enjoy a good heated debate. As long as you're making fun of the other person's argument and not them personally, it's good entertainment, imho. Plus, it can be quite educational so long as it doesn't degrade into "You're a @#$@ idiot! No, you are!" I've learned lots of things while researching for online debates.

I'm the same way. There are plenty of debates to be had on these forums and most of them require everyone involved to do at least some sort of research. There is no posting of random information without posting the links to back it up. This site is full of very, very smart people and someone's word isn't just taken as true. Many times someone's research isn't taken as true since most of the time someone finds something to refute it. The discussions there aren't meant to change anyone's minds (especially those of the ones debating), but it is a gigantic exchange of information, which is great.

To be idle is a short road to death and to be diligent is a way of life; foolish people are idle, wise people are diligent.