Comparing George Zimmerman to Joe Horn

Both cases start with 911 calls. George Zimmerman’s call is to “Non-Emergency 911” to report a “suspicious person” compared to Joe Horn, who called into “Emergency 911” to report a burglary in progress.

The November 14, 2007 call ended with the sound of Horn racking a shell into his 12-gauge shotgun followed by three gunshots that killed illegal Columbian imigrants Diego Ortiz, 30 and Hernando Riascos Torres, 38.

Seven months later Joe Horn was cleared by Harris county grand jury. The panel issued no-bill after two weeks of testimony. Joe Horn was relieved that his ordeal was finally over.

After the grand jury hearing, Harris County District Attorney Ken Magidson simply said, “In Texas, a person has a right to use deadly force in certain circumstances to protect property and that’s basically what the grand jurors had to deal with.”

As his lawyer Tom Lambright stated in news reports, Joe Horn “was trying to help police catch criminals” The criminals who Horn shot were the men he witnessed carrying property out of the home of his next-door neighbor.

Compared to George Zimmerman, whose intention was to report a suspicious person because of recent break-ins in his gated townhouse community, the difference is obvious. The suspicious person he reported was not carrying burglary tools or breaking the law. His “suspicious person” was carrying a bag of Skittles candy and a can of Arizona Iced Tea.

Paralleling Joe Horn’s case to George Zimmerman’s case, Zimmerman was released from Sanford police department without further detainment. Joe Horn was called to the grand jury and had to testify on his own behalf. He had to retain an attorney and spend two weeks out of his life to convince grand jurors he was not a vigilante.

Both George Zimmerman and Joe Horn were armed. Joe Horn shot and killed two burglars. George Zimmerman shot and killed one suspicious teenager. Both of these cases were the cause of rancorous public debate. Initially both shootings were deemed racially motivated George Zimmerman was called out by Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and the new black panthers. There were protest nationwide demanding his arrest.

In Joe Horn’s case and subsequent to the grand jury announcement, Frank Ortiz, a member of the local League of United Latin American Citizens chapter, on the behalf of Ortiz and Torres, said he hoped federal authorities would investigate Joe Horn’s case further.

Although there are some similarities, there are a few differences as well. Joe Horn shot two men in his front yard. George Zimmerman was simply driving by when he spotted what he determined to be a suspicious person walking through his gated townhouse community, the suspicious man lay dead near a paved walk through, no where near the home of George Zimmerman.

Like Zimmerman’s case, the sound of gun fire can be heard in 911 calls. In Horn’s 911 call, you can hear the sound of him loading a shotgun — he verbally warns the dispatcher of what he intends to do and then fires.

In Zimmerman’s 911 call, he doesn’t mention that he’s carrying a Kel-Tec 9mm handgun to the dispatcher so he cannot be warned to not shoot. The only sounds of gunfire heard in a 911 call are from another 911 call made by a neighbor who was calling to report a disturbance from the sound of scuffling and someone screaming for help.

At this time, George Zimmerman’s statements have not been released to the public but it is rumored that he claims he was attacked by the suspicious person and shot him in self-defense. Zimmerman suffered a broken nose and scrapes to the back of his head, said to be from being bashed on the pavement during the scuffle. Zimmerman refused medical treatment at the hospital the night of the shooting.

Comparing Zimmerman to Garcia

In March of 2012, the State of Florida tossed out a second-degree murder charge in the case of Greyston Garcia after he chased a suspected burglar and stabbed him to death. Pedro Roteta, 26 was trying to steal a radio from Garcia’s truck when a roommate alerted him. He then grabbed a knife and chased Roteta for over a block.

Miami-Dade Circuit Judge Beth Bloom decided the stabbing was justified because the burglar had swung a bag of stolen car radios at Garcia, an object that medical examiner at a hearing testified could cause “serious harm or death”. The judge found Garcia was well within his rights to pursue the victim and demand the return of his property. The Huffington Post concluded in their article, Garcia went home instead of calling 911 after the confrontation in January and later hid the knife and sold two of the radios.

In comparison to the Garcia shooting being thrown out under Florida Stand Your Ground Law, Pedro Roteta was in the act of committing a crime against Garcia whereas Trayvon Martin was not in commission of a crime when he caught the attention of George Zimmerman. It’s what happened minutes after the call that is debatable.

Can the state of Florida refute beyond a reasonable doubt that the “suspicious person” attacked George Zimmerman first or will it matter? Perhaps the state of Florida intends to prove it was Trayvon Martin, the suspicious person who was standing his ground considering he was not in any way breaking the law. He had reason to be inside the gates of Retreat View Circle community when he was aggressively being followed by a stranger.

Although usually juvenile records remain sealed in court proceeding. If left up to the Martin family, they may agree that in the case of the death of their son, they may welcome full disclosure and may perhaps want the jury/judge to know that their son had a violence-free arrest record.

The outcome of this tragedy will depend on competency of state prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda and the lawyerly wiles of defense attorney Mark O’Mara in order for George Zimmerman to share the same fate of Greyston Garcia and Joe Horn.

George Zimmerman has been charged with second degree murder. He is now in Seminole county jail awaiting a new bond hearing set for June 29th. The trial is set to take place in mid-2013 in the courtroom of Judge Kenneth Lester Jr.

21 Comments:

SANFORD, Florida (Reuters) – A pit bull named Big Boi began menacing George and Shellie Zimmerman in the fall of 2009.

The first time the dog ran free and cornered Shellie in their gated community in Sanford, Florida, George called the owner to complain. The second time, Big Boi frightened his mother-in-law’s dog. Zimmerman called Seminole County Animal Services and bought pepper spray. The third time he saw the dog on the loose, he called again. An officer came to the house, county records show.

“Don’t use pepper spray,” he told the Zimmermans, according to a friend. “It’ll take two or three seconds to take effect, but a quarter second for the dog to jump you,” he said.

“Get a gun.”

That November, the Zimmermans completed firearms training at a local lodge and received concealed-weapons gun permits. In early December, another source close to them told Reuters, the couple bought a pair of guns. George picked a Kel-Tec PF-9 9mm handgun, a popular, lightweight weapon…..

Lets hope we all dont have to get to that point to where we have to protect and remain on guard 24/7

I know this isnt the forum but just hearing what Pre Obama is doing is scary! HE’s circumventing the chain of command and just going ahead and changing our laws once again by legalizing the illegal immigrants. The point is he’s not going thru the proper channels and just changing our laws. I have no problem legalizing the children who are here! Matter of fact I think it’s necessary. Now they can work and pay taxes instead of collecting monies and not paying their fair share…So, his actions are scary, This is how many times hes gone around congress?

The 911 calls are scary too but again, why are we left with no other choices? TM, we’ll see what went down if they get to the truth instead of catering to politics…..crossing fingers….

Well, I’m glad to see that the people they poll seem to be not all making up their mind before any of the real evidence is out. I wonder if that last line is their own wishful thinking. The perjury charge of SZ should have no bearing on the opionion of GZ’s innocence or guilt and none of this will have any part in a trial, if it ever gets to that point.

Good piece, JBMIssion! I didn’t/don’t know a lot about the other cases you compared but I now know more. I do agree GZ deserves his day in court for a fair trial but some extreme NRA members, white supremacists, black panthers and even some black/white religious leaders have hauled in issues that never should have been. I am just waiting for Jews to jump in now and call anti-Semitism since GZ is 1/2 Jewish (I recently read). Racism/prejudice by/toward ANY group is so sad to me.

I thought it would be interesting to do some analysis on the CA and GZ case from the perspective of how the murder cases were treated by LE and prosecutors. I believe LE needs better and more consistent training across the nation to avoid the appearance of, or actual, racism or sexism. Unfortunately, some in this country don’t believe we need more cops and teachers, so we sure aren’t going to better train the ones we have either, I guess 😦

However, in Casey’s case, there was no evidence of a murder and she sat in jail for 3 years, while, in the Zmans case, he was not even arrested as a child’s body was ordered to the morgue by LE. They didn’t even try to find his parents. Just doesn’t sit well with me. Both cases involved a dead child but HIS was a murder (to what degree, we don’t know) and HERS was obviously not a murder, we now know. I wonder how the GZ case would have been handled if he were a she. FL’s issues, as a State, are worrisome at best. I do think the coverage he has gotten and what she received are ironic, and so different. Maybe I am biased, but from what I have seen so far, it appears he shot TM for no good reason. He seems like a cop wannbe and his race means nada in my distain for his action. Just reading and thinking out loud tonight….good night.

Hi GOB4,
I agree with you in regards to HOW this case was investigated. Someone obviously dropped the ball just by the fact that Zman wasn’t given a breath-alizer or drug tested. Usually that’s a given just as in vehicular homicide, LE wants to know who was impaired, who wasn’t thinking clearly. That’s LE 101. And even more so IF they are calling this a case of self-defense. So that’s boo-boo #1.
Like you mentioned, unlike the Anthony which was more of a Who-dunit imo, this one is a homicide, shooter known. I think had Sanford PD like in the Joe Horn case in Houston, at least brought Zman to a grand jury, people in general would have been satisfied that something was done.
I lived in Houston in 2007 for awhile and I remember thinking Joe Horn would certainly face charges. I was pleased to learn the grand jury issued a no-bill because I felt like he was helping his neigbors. I’d love to have Joe Horn as my neighbor.
Now if Joe walked the neighborhood packing a concealed weapon like ZMan, I would want him off of the street. He’s a danger to society. There’s a reason that the legitimate Neighborhood Watch Programs prohibit guns. It’s because of what happened to Trayvon Martin. I’m shocked that the Retreat View HOA didn’t require Zman to attend a Neighborhood Watch course or at least, read the manual before crowning him “Neighborhood Watch Captain”, King of the Complex.
I don’t think you’re biased at all GOB4. There really wasn’t a reason for TM to die that night. All Zman had to do is stay in his vehicle and wait at the mail boxes as the 911 operator suggested. There are no witnesses known to the public yet, that TM attacked Zman. We have to rely on Zman’s word and now that he’s a proven liar, I’m not sure if I believe him.
If as Zman claims that Trayvon was on top of him when he shot him in the chest, common sense tells me TM’s body dropped on top of Zman yet there isn’t a huge blood stain on Zman’s clothing. TM was found in a prone position on his stomach. If Zman is underneath him, he would have to flip his body off and TM would have been found lying on his back. Hmm..so we shall see. 😀 Can’t wait for trial!! I just hope we get there…

Inconsistencies in the application or enforcement of law aside, in my view Angela Corey is correct in her interpretation of law. It amazes me how many people second guess her charges. She is the prosecutor. Think for just a minute of what it required for her, the special prosecutor, to file these charges. People like Alan Dershowistz want publicity so they will criticize her to get their names in the papers. I’d like to see Alan Desrshowitz pursure this. He’s reduced himself to moron status with his remarks – maybe Claus, OJ, Julian Assange, Leona Helmsley, or one of his other criminal clients can help him piece together a rebuttal that justifies the gunning down of an armed teen not committing a crime.

Without seeing all the evidence Corey has seen how could you second guess Corey’s decision? From what is known it’s still crystal clear that George Zimmerman was the antogonist. He was safe in his car, he tracked down Trayvon Martin, he was armed and had been trained in what a Neighborhood Watch Captain should not do – carry a gun or pursue. Add to that GZ’s refererence to “black”, “drugs”, “no good”, without any proof of wrongdoing. He followed and harrassed his victim. The evidence from Zimmerman, witnesses, and the crime scene prove that.

I am sick and tired of the acceptance of “wrong” against this victim because the perpertrator felt justified by his view alone. Maybe the perpertrator is a spineless wimp who was looking for a victim….and that victim was “Black, a teenager, looked like he was on drugs or something, looking around, not familiar to the killer, wearing a hoodie in the rain, running , etc.” That is an excuse. GZ had all the options, Trayvon on the other hand had none.

Hello MassMom,
Welcome back. I totally agree with you. I question Corey because the evidence at this juncture doesn’t seem sufficient to get a Murder2 conviction. Honestly, I hope you’re right. 😀 I’ll keep my hopes up because I do think Zimmerman was the antagonist as you described him.
Excellent observation!
Thank you for this comment.

Thanks JB. I truly wish I was wrong about GZ but I have a teenaged son and I’d hate to think that there are people out there who feel it’s justifiable to shoot because of their interpretation of what is lawful, while carrying a loaded gun with no authority – that sounds like the wild, wild west. I have a good teenaged boy. He has NEVER been in trouble – EVER. He gets good grades and volunteers. He wears hoodies. He is Native American, Dominican and Russian/Polish. He tans beautifully. Could he have been a Zimmerman target? That keeps me up at night. What made Zimmerman decide this kid was up to no good? Trayvon could have been anyone’s kid.

I wish I can trust people to make the right choices but seeing this, I don’t. I don’t want to live in a society where the George Zimmermans of the world decide who lives and dies. His world-view is not mine, and I frankly don’t think he has the right to decide who is and is not a criminal. It’s not his job, he way overstepped the law, and deserves to be punished.

MassMom,
I feel for you. Your son could very easily been Zimmerman’s target. When I look at GZ, I see nothing authorative looking about him. He’s young, wearing a red jacket. I don’t know but maybe to some city kid, that’s the sign of that gang the Bloods. TM may have thought he was being profiled by a gang member. Sadly we’ll never know.

A Texas man convicted of shooting and killing his unarmed neighbor during a dispute over loud music received a 40-year prison sentence on Wednesday.
Raul Rodriguez, 47, faced a minimum of five years and a maximum of life in prison. He claimed he shot schoolteacher Kelly Danaher in self-defense under Texas’ version of the “stand your ground” law.
But prosecutors argued Rodriguez provoked the incident by confronting Danaher, 36, and his friends with a handgun and demanding they quiet down at a late-night birthday party in May 2010.
The Houston case captured more attention in the wake of Trayvon Martin’s death in Florida. There, George Zimmerman says he was being attacked and cited the state’s “stand your ground” law after shooting the unarmed teen. But prosecutors charged him with second-degree murder.
Two dozen states reportedly now allow citizens to stand their ground even outside their home. The specifics vary by state, but generally justify a person not retreating and using deadly force when a threat is perceived.
As in Florida, Texas law includes public areas, “if a person has a right to be present at a location where force is used.”
But veteran attorney Andy Drumheller told Yahoo News that the Houston jury appeared to draw a line with Rodriguez leaving his home and going down the street.
“The law is not designed to create this bubble that you can carry with you everywhere you go,” said Drumheller, a former prosecutor now practicing criminal defense in Houston. “The jury’s verdict is a cautionary statement on the limits of this defense.”
The Rodriguez case is also unique because the former firefighter was recording video during much of the ordeal.
Rodriguez, who had been calling police about the loud party, dialed 911 again as both sides shouted at each other near Danaher’s dark driveway.
“Tell you what, pal, you just pulled a gun on the wrong [expletive], OK?” one of the partygoers is heard telling Rodriguez on the home video.
Seconds later the partygoer warns, “When I go in that house and I come back, don’t think I won’t be equal to you, baby.”
Rodriguez, who told police he suspected the men were drunk, tells the 911 operator that he’s scared and will defend himself, if needed.
“I don’t want to do this, and it all started over them playing their music real loud … it’s about to get out of hand, Sir. Please help me. ”
Seconds later, he says, “I’m standing my ground here, now these people are going to try and kill me.”
The video is dark when Danaher and two other men apparently lunged toward him, laughing loudly. Rodriguez fired his gun, killing Danaher and injuring two others.
In lobbying jurors for a lenient sentence, defense attorney Bill Stradley blamed the tragedy on his client’s misunderstanding of the state’s “stand your ground” law. Something he predicts will happen with other Texas gun owners in the future.
“And they will find themselves, like Raul Rodriguez, charged with murder,” said Stradley, according to the Houston Chronicle.
“Raul believed he had a right to be where he was. But he had two seconds to make that call, to pull that trigger.”

MassMom,
Not long ago, I had 2 sons and 2 brothers who were the same age as your son is now. Neither my sons nor my brothers were bad kids or have a propensity to violence. 3 out of 4 of them were high school athletes.
I’m sure, without a doubt had Zimmerman tailed any one of them in his truck, stopped and stared at him, and as we know now, they would have stared back at him and then ran to the safety of the walk-thru to hide in the bushes to see what this creepy stranger will do.

The fact of this case is: Trayvon Martin at this point hadn’t done a thing wrong, except try to protect himself from this stranger.
In essence it was Martin who was standing his ground because he did have a right to be in the subdivision. He was the guest of a resident who lived there.

Had Zim not “predetermined” that TM was a potential burglar or a thug, he should have responded to his question properly and quickly without hesitance, without reaching for his “cell phone” cough, cough and explained he was captain of Neighborhood watch and was concerned because of recent break-ins.
Who knows? Maybe TM and GZ would have joked about it, shook hands and they both would have departed happily on their merry way.

I dare any real man to tell me, if they were in TM’s shoes they would have responded differently.

This case is a joke. Zimmerman messed up and he needs to pay just as Serino was trying to explain to him. Yes up until them Zimmerman was the hero fighting bad guys and trying to protect his neighbors but shit happens.

Houston, Texas!
Heh!! Not surprised!
Where I was born and raised.
Texas has the tuff guy image and myself I really don’t know any.
Maybe it’s because IF you like that type of person, you will know plenty.
Actually there are more here not like that, thank goodness, but it still has that
image.

Like you said before JB, it will be like the wild wild west.
This is absolutely the most rediculous law, when we already had the self defense,
WHY did stand your ground become a new definition, I’m glad he got 40 years, he should have gotten more.

So was he charged with 1st or second degree murder or manslaughter?
Maybe second degree isn’t overkill for Zimmerman. This is my opinion.
If there going to call it SYG, then the punisnment should be higher.
First of all it isn’t standing your ground when you leave your ground and kill someone.

Hi loly,
You know, I was wondering the same thing?? I don’t know what he was charged with.
And you’re right about the men in Texas, most of them act so macho “tuff guy”, I don’t get it. I lived in Texas for awhile and I noticed that.
This guy was really one dumb “tuff guy” huh? LOL To go over to someone’s house with a gun and demand they turn the music down. Thats insane. The nerve of this guy. What’s wrong with asking the guy nicely or waiting for the police to straighten out? What an idiot!!

I’m afraid this SYG law is bringing out all of the crazy people thinking they can finally get away with killing someone and not go to prison. Oh well…This guy is paying the price. Maybe now they’ll learn, “Don’t do the crime, if you can’t do the time”

I just feel badly for the victims and their families. I don’t know what I’d do if one of my relatives or children died because they played their music too loud or they were profiled like Zim did TM.
If you listen to the 911 call, Zim just had TM all figured out. Yep, he was the bad guy. It’s so sad. I just hope the Martin’s get justice.

JB,
Most so called “tuff” guys are nothing but bullies and dumb like this one. When they need to help someone, they are scared. The ones that don’t have to prove anything or more the man and step in when needed.
And without a gun!.

I really do believe that if you claim SYG no matter who’s ground your own, if convicted, deserves higher punishishment.
Do you remember the case where the guy shot and killed his guest over the game Phase 10?: /
What a prize he was! It’s a wonder he didn’t try SYG!!!

I think his name was Falkner!
Oh yeah!!
He was a tuff one! I think he got life!