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Maybe it was those zillion (appropriately spent) hours on the mat that *allow* them to do those amazing things today. And feel like "hey, it's nothing I developed, I just could do it one day... How come you can't feel it?"

Just thinkin' out loud...

Heh. That's what I call "Tai Chee Syndrome". It's the belief that "if I just do this form-choreography I learned at the park from Billy Bob, one day I will wake up and have a green aura around me and people will just bounce off of me if they attack". Gotta love 'em.... these are the people that always pay retail.

Well, I'm thinking of the observations by Ellis Amdur about how that conditioning can come about after years of ukemi. How the very mindful practice helps develop that sensitivity and conditioning. So we have people with a zillion hours on the mat who can do amazing things. Maybe it was those zillion (appropriately spent) hours on the mat that *allow* them to do those amazing things today. And feel like "hey, it's nothing I developed, I just could do it one day... How come you can't feel it?"

Just thinkin' out loud...

When I looked around the web to figure out wtf the "silk reeling" thing was talked about in another thread here, I saw, a couple of times, a theme that i think is classically Internal Chinese about how chi is soaked into the body and cooked over time.

That had me thinking about the whole "ukemi softens the joints to allow for the expression of takemusu aiki" theme of Hidden in Plain Sight.

You need to get yourself onto a seminar with the IS guys to get your foot in the door with this stuff or likely as not, you'll be muscling through it.

I second that one. Our dojo had a couple of hours with Mark Murry a while back which was very enlightening. I'm not sure that what we were shown can be adequately conveyed in print or by video. You need someone there to help you feel it.

I second that one. Our dojo had a couple of hours with Mark Murry a while back which was very enlightening. I'm not sure that what we were shown can be adequately conveyed in print or by video. You need someone there to help you feel it.

Hi Cherie,

I am curious as to what you (and maybe your dojo mates) thought of what Mark presented as to how it could fit into helping your Aikido training. I am not looking for a critique of what he did since I know Mark and have trained with him on numerous occasions, just interested in how the materiel he presented was received from an Aikidoka's perspective.

In other words, we had a dojocho of a eastern PA dojo reach out to us and has trained IS with us a couple times - I won't speak for him on this (he can do that himself if he likes) but he has commented on how the materiel we presented has changed his Aikido training to some extent and I was curious if the stuff Mark showed has maybe had the same effect in your dojo.

I am curious as to what you (and maybe your dojo mates) thought of what Mark presented as to how it could fit into helping your Aikido training. I am not looking for a critique of what he did since I know Mark and have trained with him on numerous occasions, just interested in how the materiel he presented was received from an Aikidoka's perspective.

Greg

Hi Greg. Well I can't speak for the whole dojo or what my teacher's thoughts are. Perhaps he will care to share his thoughts here at some point.

I am still in the experimental stage but there was one night that one of my teachers and I just spent the night taking Mark's exercises and incorporating them into various techniques. Since you have had experience with him perhaps you will understand my ,probably vague, descriptions.

What I think we both noticed most was that from uke's perspective they were sucked into the techniques in a smoother more flowing manner. I mean it was as if nage just vanished and the technique just happened without anyone making it happen. the ukemi was much easier and without any feeling of force at all. Quite difficult for me to describe. From Nage's viewpoint is seemed also as if uke just disappeared and was sucked into our movements without us actually bringing her with us, and we could move easily and freely.

We also noticed that we were finding some of the things we have seen Ikeda sensei do but were never quite able to figure out. my teacher that night, in particular, commented on that move your insides, internal spiral thing that seems so elusive.

Lately ,at home, I have been working with this excercise in conjunction with a tai chi movement that one of my teachers likes to practice. I don't know it's name but basically it is just transferring weight from one foot to the other in a very slow walking movement. I have a lot of knee pain and I am beginning to notice that the way I move has changed and in a way that takes the strain off of my knees and lower back.

Last night in class my ikkyo was noticeably smoother and more powerful without my old usual muscle added into it. My foot work was better as well. Sensei was my uke for a good bit of the night and he noted that I am turning around my spine more now than I ever did before. So I think it has also helped me to be more centered in my movements in aikido. I am just coming off of a long plateau (literally last night) so I look forward to seeing further evidence of what these exercises have done for my aikido. Also now that spring is here I will be on my horse more and paying attention to how it might have influenced my riding.

Anyway these are my thoughts as of right now. Not sure if others in the dojo have had similar experiences or something different. Hope this proved useful to you.

Hi Greg. Well I can't speak for the whole dojo or what my teacher's thoughts are. Perhaps he will care to share his thoughts here at some point.

I am still in the experimental stage but there was one night that one of my teachers and I just spent the night taking Mark's exercises and incorporating them into various techniques. Since you have had experience with him perhaps you will understand my ,probably vague, descriptions.

What I think we both noticed most was that from uke's perspective they were sucked into the techniques in a smoother more flowing manner. I mean it was as if nage just vanished and the technique just happened without anyone making it happen. the ukemi was much easier and without any feeling of force at all. Quite difficult for me to describe. From Nage's viewpoint is seemed also as if uke just disappeared and was sucked into our movements without us actually bringing her with us, and we could move easily and freely.

We also noticed that we were finding some of the things we have seen Ikeda sensei do but were never quite able to figure out. my teacher that night, in particular, commented on that move your insides, internal spiral thing that seems so elusive.

Lately ,at home, I have been working with this excercise in conjunction with a tai chi movement that one of my teachers likes to practice. I don't know it's name but basically it is just transferring weight from one foot to the other in a very slow walking movement. I have a lot of knee pain and I am beginning to notice that the way I move has changed and in a way that takes the strain off of my knees and lower back.

Last night in class my ikkyo was noticeably smoother and more powerful without my old usual muscle added into it. My foot work was better as well. Sensei was my uke for a good bit of the night and he noted that I am turning around my spine more now than I ever did before. So I think it has also helped me to be more centered in my movements in aikido. I am just coming off of a long plateau (literally last night) so I look forward to seeing further evidence of what these exercises have done for my aikido. Also now that spring is here I will be on my horse more and paying attention to how it might have influenced my riding.

Anyway these are my thoughts as of right now. Not sure if others in the dojo have had similar experiences or something different. Hope this proved useful to you.

Hi Cherie,

Thank you for your response - your comments do make sense to me and I encourage you to continue down that path. A few key points to remember: keep mind and body coordinated, connect to AND trough Uke's center, and move you not Uke good luck!

Thank you for your response - your comments do make sense to me and I encourage you to continue down that path. A few key points to remember: keep mind and body coordinated, connect to AND trough Uke's center, and move you not Uke good luck!

Greg

Thank you I intend to do so. These are all things that my teachers continue to encourage as well. I find these kinds of exercises endlessly fascinating.

I mean don;'t get me working I love being tossed across the dojo and making uke fly like an airplane but these connection exercises are really cool.

That's an interesting idea and a perfect way to describe it. Not familiar with who Larry Novick is but you have me intrigued.

If you are ever in the Santa Monica area, visit him at Ace Aikido.

He was very active in aikido-l in years past and taught at a couple of list seminars - most famously he threw a Very Large and Strong Person (TM) not disposed to tank for people and everything on the mat came to a standstill as the entire room shook with the impact followed by a huge roar from Martin of "Oh cool! Do it AGAIN!"

since the thread on Ikeda sensei demonstrating was closed, i didn't finished point #3. just want to cover #3 as i stated so folks wouldn't feel jib. for those who wanted to know #1 and #2, you can go here http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...t=19184&page=6
just skip over all the junks (mine included).

to recap the three points: connected, unity, and move your inside.

move your inside doesn't mean that you are going to flip your kidneys around or turn your spleen up-side-down or making faces with your large and small intestines. although, if you can do that, please let me know how and i declare you alien and ship you to Area 51 (it does exist. .... does too!)

if you use Tohei's keep the one point model, then you know the one point is the hara/dantien, where your belly always itch and you can't scratch it while in front of ladies. so if you think of the one point located below your navel and a bit inward of your belly. imagine the one point expands and be as big as a tennis ball. now imagine threads extend from the tennis ball's surface and connect to various part of your body, for example, a thread with one end anchor on the surface of the ball and the other to your right palm. so if i want to move my palm, i just rotate the ball. the thread would pull and your palm move with the pull. now, since there are lots of threads on the surface of the ball, if the ball rotate and/or move in any direction, various parts of your body, the ones that had thread connection, move as well. thus the phrase "one moves all move". and if you view the ball as your dantien/hara, then the process called "dantien/hara movement", i.e. "move your inside".

for untrained or newly trained folks in this arena, instead of a ball, they have a point or small ball, say a golf ball. since the golf ball surface is small, it doesn't have a whole lot of surface area which mean it doesn't have a whole lot of threads connecting to various parts of your body. better trained folks, have larger ball, thus larger surface area and more threads, i.e. more body simultaneously control. essentially, you take Tohei's one point and expand it into a ball and move it around.

since we have #1 (connected) and #2 (unity), we are one and connected, 4-legged animal (donkey) and i am the head , as i "move my inside", you would move as well. however, the movement doesn't register with uke's perception, because uke's expecting power through the contact point. sort of imagine the threads are now extending into uke's body.

so there, i have done as i said. you folks can debate or whatever (pick #2).

*disclaimer before folks asking what sort of ball i have. i got tiny ball (being asian and all) *

Dear Phi, Would i be right in saying this article is a load of Ball---S?Phi,are you on ganja ,magic mushrooms or a doughnut overdose?I reckon you are a bit of a space cadet,a nice one but still a refugee from Star Trek, Cheers, Joe.

No. You are just missing his point entirely. Maybe try not to insult anybody while you do so.

Dear Nicholas,
Having a bad day are we?For what it its worth [one euro ]I was just joking in my blog.It would appear that Teutonic humour is not on the same waveband as we Brits.No doubt you will see this message as insulting to you.All I can say is lighten up Nicholas , if I wished to insult anybody [including you ] I would use slightly harsher terminology.Guten Tag , Joe.
Ps Since you appear to know what point I am missing , why not drop me a line and give me the benefit of your knowledge?

Dear Nicholas,
Having a bad day are we?For what it its worth [one euro ]I was just joking in my blog.It would appear that Teutonic humour is not on the same waveband as we Brits.No doubt you will see this message as insulting to you.All I can say is lighten up Nicholas , if I wished to insult anybody [including you ] I would use slightly harsher terminology.Guten Tag , Joe.
Ps Since you appear to know what point I am missing , why not drop me a line and give me the benefit of your knowledge?

Ah, too bad a I cannot put on my worst German accent in writing. Joe, you asked a question, you got an answer, and since you have a history of couching your unwillingness to engage with even the possibility of internal work in "humour", dont be surprised. If, of course, you take the internal work that Phi is outlining as a real and interesting possibility, you have my heartfelt apologies.

I cannot state his point any simpler than he did. I could subtract his humour, but then again, that would play your national stereotypes in a way I cannot allow, so I wont do it.