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Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

I'm not saying we have to go get Lebron James... I'm saying we need to be able to utilize the tools available to us to improve the team and that includes all aspects of FA. It's clear ownership isn't interested in that.

Why is that clear? Who do you think they should have pursued and what do you think they should have paid him? Would he have come here at any price?

Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

In local newspaper this morning, there was an article about Donnie Walsh. I looked at his picture and didn't even recognize him! No slick back hair anymore but a softer hair style. Dadgum, he had 5 kids in 6 years! I guess he believed in the old saying of keeping his wife barefoot and pregnant. I've had conversations with some of his family members in the past, but didn't realize his family is as big as it is.

For those interested in the article, you can read it in todays Daily Journal.

I never wanted Walsh back with the Pacers, and I'm not impressed with what he's accomplished since the 1st of the month. My hope is he makes a trade or 2 that will put the Pacers in a better position to be in the Championship game. I'm not counting on it so, as you, Bball, the excitement just isn't oozing out of me for this coming season. As a matter of fact, I will go on record predicting the Pacers WILL NOT finish with a 63% win percentage, have the 3rd best record in the EC, or be the 5th best overall team in the NBA next year. People who think this will happen had better be prepared unhappiness and discontent.

I agree with where you think the Pacers will be this coming season....

Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

I'm not saying we have to go get Lebron James... I'm saying we need to be able to utilize the tools available to us to improve the team and that includes all aspects of FA. It's clear ownership isn't interested in that.

Ownership only cares about being a fringe playoff team. That way more people stay interested and more likely to go to games. This is not a championship caliber team, but a team that can definitely win 1 playoff series. I just feel the Pacers are destined to always be hovering around the last seeded teams. Never getting better, never losing enough games to draft a difference maker.

From the uninspiring draft picks to low risk/low-medium reward FAs, the Pacers will forever stay just good enough to get a low seed for the playoffs.

While there are teams that always seem to languish in the lottery, I guess it could be worse, but damn, as a fan, I want to believe that management wants that championship.

Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

Ownership only cares about being a fringe playoff team. That way more people stay interested and more likely to go to games. This is not a championship caliber team, but a team that can definitely win 1 playoff series. I just feel the Pacers are destined to always be hovering around the last seeded teams. Never getting better, never losing enough games to draft a difference maker.

From the uninspiring draft picks to low risk/low-medium reward FAs, the Pacers will forever stay just good enough to get a low seed for the playoffs.

While there are teams that always seem to languish in the lottery, I guess it could be worse, but damn, as a fan, I want to believe that management wants that championship.

That last part is the one I want to believe in but I can't, it looks to me like the Pacers are just happy to be a playoffs team, I know people complain about LA and their ability to attract free agents, but one of the big reason free agents love to go there(other than the beach of course) is because their goal is to win a championship every year, what free agent is going to come to indy if they know that ownership is not going to try hard to be a contender? the only way to convince them would be to overpay them so they are happy to be in a playoffs team while making a lot of money.

Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

Because they said so. So even if someone wants to believe Bird left because of his health (regardless of the backstory), or that we're Basketball Siberia and nobody would ever come here (regardless of our ability to re-sign our own players when we want), none of that matters because TPTB have already been quoted saying they never intended to be players in FA this offseason (and signed Hibbert and Hill and closed the door on the idea before they had to).

And if you need any further proof that this is in the team's DNA look no further than back in the day when Barkley wanted to come here, even lobbied for it thru Reggie, and the team brass didn't even entertain the idea.

Last edited by Bball; 07-21-2012 at 02:55 PM.

Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

Because they said so. So even if someone wants to believe Bird left because of his health (regardless of the backstory), or that we're Basketball Siberia and nobody would ever come here (regardless of our ability to re-sign our own players when we want), none of that matters because TPTB have already been quoted saying they never intended to be players in FA this offseason (and signed Hibbert and Hill and closed the door on the idea before they had to).

And if you need any further proof that this is in the team's DNA look no further than back in the day when Barkley wanted to come here, even lobbied for it thru Reggie, and the team brass didn't even entertain the idea.

I keep asking you this question and you keep ignoring it. What top free agents have ever signed with a small market team? So far we only have McGrady and Hill with Orlando. I do agree with you about why Bird left but I don't think that is so much frustration with Simon but a frustration with trying to build a winner in a small market... I look for Bird to sit out a year or two and then take over the front office of a big market team......

Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

We went from a JOB team with no hope at all, to a top 3 seed and a 2nd round playoff appearance in less than a year. We have already improved the team for next season. We are making steps, if Paul blows up or our team develops elite chemistry we'll be a contender, that is our only hope.

What the hell do you people want? From the gutter to the championship in 2 seasons? Lebron, Dwight and Deron to all come to Indy cause it's a nice place to live? Some of you people can't be pleased, regardless.

Repeat after me, Top free agents are NEVER to have Indy on the top of their list. King Tuts Tomb's list pretty well covers what could or couldn't have happened. At some point people need to accept reality or find another team.

Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

I like that our new FO is actually making moves at this time of the year unlike the Morway/Bird front office.

That front office DIDN'T have the ability to make many moves at this time of the year.

"Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

"And David put his hand in the bag and took out a stone and slung it. And it struck the Philistine on the head and he fell to the ground. Amen. "
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Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

I like that our new FO is actually making moves at this time of the year unlike the Morway/Bird front office.

In their defense, Bird and Morway did not have the room to make any of these moves until a bunch of really bad contracts Bird inherited were gone. They did a wonderful job of drafting and building this team. Even the use of JOB to coach the rebuild was good. The rebuilding coach and front office rarely get to see the fruit of their labors. Bird was lucky to do so......

Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

I keep asking you this question and you keep ignoring it. What top free agents have ever signed with a small market team? So far we only have McGrady and Hill with Orlando. I do agree with you about why Bird left but I don't think that is so much frustration with Simon but a frustration with trying to build a winner in a small market... I look for Bird to sit out a year or two and then take over the front office of a big market team......

I'm not ignoring the question as much as saying it really doesn't matter because all things aren't equal. A small market team on the downswing, or with questionable management and ownership will find it difficult to attract a FA. So that will skew your stats right there. Then, in some cases what would've been a FA bolting ends up being a sign and trade. So that will skew the results even more. Brad Miller to Sacramento comes to mind in that scenario. ...And I don't remember how Pippen ended up in Portland.

What really matters is the Pacers don't even try. Cap space or not, they don't try. It's not in their business model. Bird could've figured out there was no chance to attract FA's to Pacerland long before now if that was the reason he left. He could've left after last season or at any point if that was the case. How would you explain his constant mentions of questioning Simon's desire to do what it takes or not before ultimately leaving if he knew no FA would come here? Let alone reports that claim Bird left because Simon wasn't willing to spend. While that might be open for some interpretation, none of those interpretations could possibly be he grew frustrated that FA's wouldn't come here.

And I agree... Simon will spend... But not on any players but his own... Unless they come at a discount...

And all that said, the Pacers themselves got West to come here just last season, but on a bargain deal. That 'bargain deal' simply isn't going to happen often if you try and polish your team thru free agency to find a missing piece.

Seriously, this inferiority complex needs to cease.

Last edited by Bball; 07-21-2012 at 04:23 PM.

Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

------

"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

We went from a JOB team with no hope at all, to a top 3 seed and a 2nd round playoff appearance in less than a year. We have already improved the team for next season. We are making steps, if Paul blows up or our team develops elite chemistry we'll be a contender, that is our only hope.

What the hell do you people want? From the gutter to the championship in 2 seasons? Lebron, Dwight and Deron to all come to Indy cause it's a nice place to live? Some of you people can't be pleased, regardless.

Repeat after me, Top free agents are NEVER to have Indy on the top of their list. King Tuts Tomb's list pretty well covers what could or couldn't have happened. At some point people need to accept reality or find another team.

Hicks, I certainly get why you are leaving now.

Pacers were a top seed for 2 reasons. 1, the condensed schedule played in our favor with our young team. 2, injuries to other teams, while the Pacers had very little injuries. I think we'll see things play out much differently this year. This team is still good and will make the playoffs, but more around the 6th seed.

Other teams in the East were making bold moves. Pacers did not make a single bold move. That's my only complaint. Always going with low risk/low-medium reward players...basically safe bets. I'd just like to seem them gamble a bit. They moved so quickly this offseason that they didn't put themselves in a position to pick up a amnestied player on the cheap. For all our gruff about not getting big FAs. Amnestied players are usually cheap, which should be a focus for Pacers management.

Hell, I hope they pick up Blatche for less than MLE. Dude's got talent, and I think he deserves a chance. Pacers did with Lance and he seems to be a much better guy. Isn't Clark Kellog in charge of player development? I think he could help Blatche too. Plus, I think Blatche realizes he's on very thin ice and will be better for it. Blatche could be a potential home run. I think he's a low risk/high reward type of player the Pacers should pick up. He'd instantly be better than Hans. He's low risk, cause I bet he would be signed for cheap and he's coming off the bench.

But I think we all know the Pacers aren't going to do it. They'll more than likely sign Machado or some other guard that will just rot on the bench.

Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

What really matters is the Pacers don't even try. Cap space or not, they don't try.

Why do you assume they just didn't try at all? Because it didn't leak to the press?

The question is still valid. Out of the list of the top FAs there were very good reasons that the Pacers wouldn't have won on them. Which ones do you think they should have tried on anyway?

Of the remaining FAs, which ones do you think we just didn't bother on?

I'm not getting that an assumption of complete inactivity leads to such certainty - especially when 12 hours after the FA market opened people were totally and abswolutely convinced the Pacers would do nothing at all - possibly not even re-sign Roy - and here we are with a ton of moves.

Which moves do you think the Pacers could have made successfully and which moves they DID make would you have dumped in their favor?

For example, I think nwhen the Pacers approached Mayo he was at $8M and they moved on, then Mayo realized no one was paying that so took $4M from the Mavs. Would you rather wee had not bothered making any other moves - including stalling signing Roy - to wait and see if Mayo would cut his requirements? Do you really think he would have done so?

BillS

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Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

Because they said so. So even if someone wants to believe Bird left because of his health (regardless of the backstory), or that we're Basketball Siberia and nobody would ever come here (regardless of our ability to re-sign our own players when we want), none of that matters because TPTB have already been quoted saying they never intended to be players in FA this offseason (and signed Hibbert and Hill and closed the door on the idea before they had to).

And if you need any further proof that this is in the team's DNA look no further than back in the day when Barkley wanted to come here, even lobbied for it thru Reggie, and the team brass didn't even entertain the idea.

I've been a Pacers fan for a looong time, and I don't remember this Barkley coming out and saying this at all. Could you provide proof?

The article only mentions the interest from the Pacers not from Barkley, but he definitely had a big interest in the Pacers as well. You can hear the defeatist tone in DWs quotes. Ultimately DW decided he was to expensive to pursue. I remember it pissed me off because it was the rare chance to add a great player and we passed. That's the starting point for me to start questioning the teams desire to win a title. If you want to win a title in Indiana you are going to have to take some big chances. They won't. They'll take the conservative good team over the potential great team every time. And, unfortunately, it will be good enough in this market. 6 years from now everyone will call the team a success as long as they make the playoffs and tease you with the possibility that if all the stars aligned, they maybe, possibly could almost win a title. And when they don't, the fans will say "they tried hard, what else could they have possibly done?"

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Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

I was around when Barkley picked Houston over the Pacers, not sure about all the revisionist history now saying we were just to cheap to pursue hm. Barkley thought he had a better chance at Houston, period......... he was wrong.

Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

I was around when Barkley picked Houston over the Pacers, not sure about all the revisionist history now saying we were just to cheap to pursue hm. Barkley thought he had a better chance at Houston, period......... he was wrong.

Barkley was traded and didn't "pick" Houston - Phoenix did. Barkley wanted to go to a contender and gave a list that included Indiana. I remember some reports that Indy was very high on that list. DW thought the price was too high.

Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

Ownership only cares about being a fringe playoff team. That way more people stay interested and more likely to go to games. This is not a championship caliber team, but a team that can definitely win 1 playoff series. I just feel the Pacers are destined to always be hovering around the last seeded teams. Never getting better, never losing enough games to draft a difference maker.

From the uninspiring draft picks to low risk/low-medium reward FAs, the Pacers will forever stay just good enough to get a low seed for the playoffs.

While there are teams that always seem to languish in the lottery, I guess it could be worse, but damn, as a fan, I want to believe that management wants that championship.

Can you prove that management doesn't try to go after these big-name free agents? Just because the Pacers aren't mentioned in conjunction with these FAs doesn't mean they didn't at least inquire. If Nash knew all along that he wanted to go to a city where he could enjoy the spotlight in his basketball twilight years, then would he answer the Pacers' call? D-Will would have been nuts not to return to a team whose owner is willing to massively overpay everyone. Not to mention the Pacers FO has had a reputation for keeping their movements secret until the very last minute, so if we didn't get a guy, it's unlikely we hear about negotiations with him, unless an agent leaks it. Just because we don't get the FA doesn't mean we didn't try. Sorry for the rant, but I can't take much more of this. It's like saying the Thunder or Spurs or Pacers, for that matter, didn't want to win the NBA Finals, then saying "I know this because they didn't win, so obviously they didn't try."

Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

Would you rather wee had not bothered making any other moves - including stalling signing Roy - to wait and see if Mayo would cut his requirements? Do you really think he would have done so?

If Hibbert couldn't see the advantage of holding off re-signing for the good of the team shame on him. He was going to get paid what Porland was going to pay him. Was he afraid Walsh would go back on his word? Same applies with Hill.

Devil's advocate: I firmly believe ownership put a limit on what they would pay this year. The money wasn't there to spend, so Hibbert and Hill got signed early. What was left got spent to solidify the bench.

In order for this team to get an Allstar and have a shot to get the NBA finals this coming year, there is going to have to be a trade, probably Granger. I'd love to think Simon gave Walsh the green light to spend up to the LT, and Walsh is keeping the 5 mil held back for salary of an incoming Allstar in a trade this off season. I believe that is just wishful thinking on my part.

I'm not advocating Granger being traded. He's just the most reasonable choice to get an Allstar and being able to match an Allstar salary with Granger's salary plus the 5 mil I mentioned.

Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

You can say this 1,000 more times in 1,000 more posts, and the fact is you don't know that. You can assume it to your hearts content though.

I think it's just as plausible that the front office courts those guys but are never at the top of their list, so they move on before the discussions ever get serious. Why waste time talking with someone you're a long shot at ever signing?

Also, vnzla likes to point out that people go to the Lakers because they can do whatever is necessary to win, but the fact is they can do whatever it takes because they can afford it. If Simon was netting a 200 million a year TV deal, among everything else, he wouldn't care about how much he spends either. The ability to do "whatever is necessary to win" goes hand in hand with being a large market as well.

Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

Your list looks good to me... Which ones did we go hot and heavy after?

I refuse to believe if we go all in for a FA that it wouldn't matter and we'd still have to put an X by their name. I don't buy this inferiority crap that is being sold.

It's doesn't stem from inferiority, it stems from the fact that either because of restricted free agency or redundancy of position, 17 of the top 20 free agents were impossible for us to sign. And I don't mean impossible like "hard to do." I mean it like "cannot happen in the laws of this universe."

There are plenty of legitimate things the Pacers have done wrong. Please complain about those, not the things they have completely no control over.