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17 Jul 2018

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745

Whether you had on that day a valid card yourself is key here. If you do then you should clearly state so, including enough details for them to check. It will help persuade them that the first mistake was genuine (ie you mistakenly took the wrong card with you). If you don’t then the only conclusion can be (as far as I can see) that your actions were deliberate from the outset and thus you would be best advised not to mention the subject.

Established Member

Whether you had on that day a valid card yourself is key here. If you do then you should clearly state so, including enough details for them to check. It will help persuade them that the first mistake was genuine (ie you mistakenly took the wrong card with you). If you don’t then the only conclusion can be (as far as I can see) that your actions were deliberate from the outset and thus you would be best advised not to mention the subject.

apols to the OP if I have this wrong but I presumed that the OP did not have a railcard (but had not actually noticed that her sister's railcard which she intended to use was also expired) - however, it is hard for the OP not to mention this whilst admitting they gave false details (of a relative in this case) as I assume the name on the railcard was used by the inspector as the ID for the penalty details, and the OP, in the heat of the moment - went along with that - but now regrets the whole thing.

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apols to the OP if I have this wrong but I presumed that the OP did not have a railcard (but had not actually noticed that her sister's railcard which she intended to use was also expired) - however, it is hard for the OP not to mention this whilst admitting they gave false details (of a relative in this case) as I assume the name on the railcard was used by the inspector as the ID for the penalty details, and the OP, in the heat of the moment - went along with that - but now regrets the whole thing.

Established Member

Joy - it may also be a good idea for you to go and get a railcard now - may not make any difference to things but if they were to cross check anything (not sure that they can actually) at least the fact that you had one would re-inforce the line of argument that you had learned your lesson and would not do it again - as you would not be able to as you have a valid railcard. As you probably know you can but them on line or over the counter at any station ticket office.

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To re-iterate the perjury issue: Whatever you do, *if* you do end up in court *do not lie about your identity* (or any other matter - but lying about your identity is particularly bad since there is no defence that you were - say - unaware you were lying).

Perjury is miles above *anything* else you may have done in terms of seriousness, there is a high chance of prison and you will have a conviction that may seriously affect many careers. So don't even consider this as an option.

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Joined

17 Jul 2018

Messages

745

So, having established that you didn't have your own railcard, I think the wording in your letter where you describe being panicked as you were looking in your purse, and that it was your sister's old purse, is highly misleading, and I suspect deliberately so. It's suggesting that you were expecting to find your railcard in there, and instead found your sister's, when of course you knew you wouldn't as you don't have one.

Remembering that you are looking to have a career in FS, and my comments about integrity, integrity, integrity, think very carefully whether you want such a statement to potentially be put before a court. The investigating team may well know you don't have a railcard already, and if they think you are trying to explain it all away as an accident when in fact it was deliberate, that will no doubt lean them towards prosecution. And again, any comments in the letter about learning your lesson will count for nothing if elsewhere you are perceived to be trying to pull the wool over their eyes as to what was in your mind that morning.

You probably think some of our questioning and comments are harsh, but better that you hear them here than in the magistrates court.

Established Member

So, having established that you didn't have your own railcard, I think the wording in your letter where you describe being panicked as you were looking in your purse, and that it was your sister's old purse, is highly misleading, and I suspect deliberately so. It's suggesting that you were expecting to find your railcard in there, and instead found your sister's, when of course you knew you wouldn't as you don't have one.

Remembering that you are looking to have a career in FS, and my comments about integrity, integrity, integrity, think very carefully whether you want such a statement to potentially be put before a court. The investigating team may well know you don't have a railcard already, and if they think you are trying to explain it all away as an accident when in fact it was deliberate, that will no doubt lean them towards prosecution. And again, any comments in the letter about learning your lesson will count for nothing if elsewhere you are perceived to be trying to pull the wool over their eyes as to what was in your mind that morning.

You probably think some of our questioning and comments are harsh, but better that you hear them here than in the magistrates court.

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Joined

17 Jul 2018

Messages

745

How about "When approached by the inspector and asked for my ticket and railcard, I produced a railcard that was not only out of date, but was in the name of my sister. When he noticed it was out of date I panicked and gave my sister's details, in the hope that this would avoid further complicating the situation I was in. I do realise that this was totally inappropriate, and has only made matters worse. Accordingly I have responded rather than my sister, and ask that any future correspondence is with me."

Established Member

How about "When approached by the inspector and asked for my ticket and railcard, I produced a railcard that was not only out of date, but was in the name of my sister. When he noticed it was out of date I panicked and gave my sister's details, in the hope that this would avoid further complicating the situation I was in. I do realise that this was totally inappropriate, and has only made matters worse. Accordingly I have responded rather than my sister, and ask that any future correspondence is with me."

Member

How about "When approached by the inspector and asked for my ticket and railcard, I produced a railcard that was not only out of date, but was in the name of my sister. When he noticed it was out of date I panicked and gave my sister's details, in the hope that this would avoid further complicating the situation I was in. I do realise that this was totally inappropriate, and has only made matters worse. Accordingly I have responded rather than my sister, and ask that any future correspondence is with me."

On [ ] I boarded a train from [ ] to [ ] during super off-peak hours with my train leaving the first station at around 10am. When approached by the inspector and asked for my ticket and railcard, I produced a railcard that was not only out of date, but was in the name of my sister. When he noticed it was out of date I panicked and gave my sister's details, in the hope that this would avoid further complicating the situation I was in. I do realise that this was totally inappropriate and has only made matters worse. Accordingly, I have responded rather than my sister, and ask that any future correspondence is with me. I have filled out the form with the correct/MY details.

I fully accept all responsibility for my actions here, I am now aware that such actions contribute to significant financial losses to rail providers each year, and that these also have an impact on other fare paying passengers. I genuinely regret how negligent and irresponsible my actions were. That same day I bought a new ticket to return and I’m in the process of ordering a railcard. I can most definitely say that this is not a mistake that I will EVER knowingly repeat again as I have learned significantly from my actions and wish to apologise for them.

If this matter could be settled out of court I am more than willing to pay all costs and fares that are linked to this mistake, including admin fees and all others associated with this. I am genuinely regretful and apologetic that it has come to this, but I hope this can be settled.

Yours Faithfully,

Signed:

Does this suffice as an honest explanation. - or do I make it more explicit in my explanation that I didn't have a rail card?
What can I add?

Thank you all for your help and support so far - it has been very helpful!

Member

Joined

17 Jul 2018

Messages

745

It’s certainly better. It would help if you could say I have since bought a railcard (so long as you have ordered and paid for it, that is an accurate statement) - saying your are in the process of ordering one makes it obvious you are only now doing it, when the incident happened some time ago.

Member

It’s certainly better. It would help if you could say I have since bought a railcard (so long as you have ordered and paid for it, that is an accurate statement) - saying your are in the process of ordering one makes it obvious you are only now doing it, when the incident happened some time ago.

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Also is there any prosecutors or inspectors with any knowledge on the likely outcome of this situation?
My fear is that this could also be used as evidence if taken to court so realistically is it a good idea?

Established Member

Also is there any prosecutors or inspectors with any knowledge on the likely outcome of this situation?
My fear is that this could also be used as evidence if taken to court so realistically is it a good idea?

Member

Conceivably this might be viewed as less serious than in a similar case where the person is not eligible for a railcard. It could be said that the total avoided amount is no more than £30.

It isn't quite as simple as that, because the person who uses an invalid railcard has the advantage of not committing themselves in advance to the £30. But it might be relevant. Again, whether/when you consult a lawyer is up to you.

Member

Conceivably this might be viewed as less serious than in a similar case where the person is not eligible for a railcard. It could be said that the total avoided amount is no more than £30.

It isn't quite as simple as that, because the person who uses an invalid railcard has the advantage of not committing themselves in advance to the £30. But it might be relevant. Again, whether/when you consult a lawyer is up to you.

Member

If you want to come clean and pay the fares you owe, then you would admit to the other trips.

A court might take some account of this: If you had bought a railcard costing only £30 a year, the company would have ended up with the right amount of money for all the trips

(if you only did it for a few months or less).

So a court might think it isn't quite as bad as if you weren't eligible at all for a railcard. In that case, you might have avoided much more than £30 in fares.

But it's still repeated dishonesty. Also, you can't reasonably just argue "it's only £30". That's because your dishonesty gave you an extra benefit - you could just take trips without ever committing yourself to buying a railcard, and just get smaller benefits each time.

Because it isn't very straightforward, if you were to put forward this kind of argument, a solicitor might be better placed than you to make it.

Why are you concerned that the case you have made might be used in court? Is that general anxiety or is there something else that needs to be clear?

Member

You wouldn't necessarily have to make that argument explicitly, particularly as you've told them you have now bought a railcard.

The main point here is that what you did wasn't as bad (it seems to me) as it would be in a case where the person wasn't eligible.

The repeated use is basically a separate matter. You didn't say whether there was any question about this at the time. I don't know whether the fact that you were also dishonest in claiming to be your sister might make someone more suspicious, and so prompt inquiries in future about whether you had used the card before.

Apart from anything else, it isn't necessarily better for you as a person to present the story as if it was just one time.

Established Member

No - don't panic - you've done it now and I doubt it is a big deal. All you can do is wait and see what response you get as the next stage. Feel free to come back to the forum for further advice when you need it. In the mean time stay safe!

Member

If you want to come clean and pay the fares you owe, then you would admit to the other trips.

A court might take some account of this: If you had bought a railcard costing only £30 a year, the company would have ended up with the right amount of money for all the trips

(if you only did it for a few months or less).

So a court might think it isn't quite as bad as if you weren't eligible at all for a railcard. In that case, you might have avoided much more than £30 in fares.

But it's still repeated dishonesty. Also, you can't reasonably just argue "it's only £30". That's because your dishonesty gave you an extra benefit - you could just take trips without ever committing yourself to buying a railcard, and just get smaller benefits each time.

Because it isn't very straightforward, if you were to put forward this kind of argument, a solicitor might be better placed than you to make it.

Why are you concerned that the case you have made might be used in court? Is that general anxiety or is there something else that needs to be clear?

I’m not going to lie I’m still a bit confused as your argument isn’t following logically to me?
I don’t know where I argued “it’s only £30” - hyperbole or not, this is not the argument or message that I was trying to get across in my letter, so how does this relate to anything. If you could clarify it will be much appreciated.
As far as I’m concerned, I’ve given all the facts needed. Unfortunately I can’t afford a solicitor and from the advice I’ve received in here, I haven’t been told to mention the trips as it is a given that they can use their systems to identify how many times I’ve travelled without it. In the letter I also have mentioned that I am willing to pay “all costs associated with this mistake” which should point at me paying the difference for all the times I have travelled without a railcard, should they draw it out which is probably likely.
In my previous posts, I’ve asked about how severe my punishment would be i.e what’s the worst case scenario so that I am mentally prepared and can prepare accordingly. I have given ALL information that pertains to my case so that this can be gauged accurately by those providing help. Therefore my concern or anxiety is most definitely relevant in this situation due to the fear of unknown - not because of any hidden information.
I hope this makes sense.

Member

You wouldn't necessarily have to make that argument explicitly, particularly as you've told them you have now bought a railcard.

The main point here is that what you did wasn't as bad (it seems to me) as it would be in a case where the person wasn't eligible.

The repeated use is basically a separate matter. You didn't say whether there was any question about this at the time. I don't know whether the fact that you were also dishonest in claiming to be your sister might make someone more suspicious, and so prompt inquiries in future about whether you had used the card before.

Apart from anything else, it isn't necessarily better for you as a person to present the story as if it was just one time.

I think your asking whether I’m eligible for a railcard? If that’s the question then yes I’m am eligible for a 16-25railcard which I have purchased.
I’ve just read the second part and you are essentially saying it would have been advisable to mention the 3 other times I had used the railcard? When I asked earlier, I was told it was unnecessary to do so.
Is there anything I can do now as I have already posted the letter.