The main difference between Jose and Kyle is who you go after in the trade and free agent market as well. Some likely targets (though we likely won't get them) for this summer would/should vary greatly depending on who runs the show.

For a small forward, if you keep Kyle you want Andre Igoudala. A two way player and facilitator from the wing position.

With Calderon you should aim for someone like Danny Granger. Good defender, great shooter.

PF for Kyle would benefit greatly from someone like Pau Gasol.

PF for Calderon someone like Millsap could save 10 million and be extremely useful.

In a game with the teams comprised of

Lowry/Ross/Iggy/Gasol/JV vs Calderon/Ross/Granger/Millsap/JV I honestly don't know who would win or who even really had an advantage. But the decision at the point needs to be made before the trade deadline. The days of just acquiring assets are over. A direction needs to be picked BEFORE we go looking for assets/talent upgrades, because it alters the kind of players that would thrive there. Think Lakers acquiring Steve Nash and Dwight Howard then running Princeton? Brooklyn acquires Crash, and Joe Johnson and then opts to play at a slow pace?

It sounds from a few sources like there is quite the internal debate going right now about who to keep? I don't think one way is more correct than another. I do think attempting to have the best of both worlds will ultimately dilute both directions resulting in yet more mediocrity.

Give us ideal SFs and PFs for either the two doesn't really do much when you don't give us any trades that will get us those players. It's a pointless to compare Lowry/Ross/Iggy/Gasol/JV vs Calderon/Ross/Granger/Millsap/JV especially since it's all fantasy and these starting line-ups will never come to be true. Until you can tell us what pieces we are trading and other possible pieces we are getting back to get your ideal starting lineup, I'm sorry but this is not really an good thread.

While I agree certain players work better with one PG than another (although some I don't think are as clear cut), but playing a little player theory here, I don't agree Demar makes more sense with Jose. He's an isolation or one on one player. With Jose you want guys that are constantly moving, and particularily going to the net without the ball.

Then again I'm not sure Demar makes much sense with anyone... he just lacks too much.

Give us ideal SFs and PFs for either the two doesn't really do much when you don't give us any trades that will get us those players. It's a pointless to compare Lowry/Ross/Iggy/Gasol/JV vs Calderon/Ross/Granger/Millsap/JV especially since it's all fantasy and these starting line-ups will never come to be true. Until you can tell us what pieces we are trading and other possible pieces we are getting back to get your ideal starting lineup, I'm sorry but this is not really an good thread.

The specific point I was attempting to make with that (I may not have communicated it right) was that if and when you decide on the PG it alters who fits better with this team in order to make a better team. I'm not interested in going over trades to get there it was more of a ... if you go with Lowry you need to target players that fill in the holes of his game and likewise with Calderon. The second point being, I actually don't know who is better for the team, Lowry or Jose, but a decision needs to occur before the trade deadline so that we are targeting the right assets...

While I agree certain players work better with one PG than another (although some I don't think are as clear cut), but playing a little player theory here, I don't agree Demar makes more sense with Jose. He's an isolation or one on one player. With Jose you want guys that are constantly moving, and particularily going to the net without the ball.

Then again I'm not sure Demar makes much sense with anyone... he just lacks too much.

If DeMar's role is an isolation player he is doing a SUPERBLY SHITTY job of it. Most of his points are long two's mid range jumpers and they almost always come off screens.

Has any other team even come close to the pg battles that toronto has? Houston maybe? I'd also be curious to see how our 2 pg's have stacked up against others teams 2 pg's. It would also be interesting to look at spending at the pg posistion versus other teams. Has this competition allowed us to be more productive at the point guard position than other teams? Have we got good value from it?

I'm not sure you HAVE to make a decision about what direction you want to go it. What other teams are offering, imo, would also go a long way to determine who I would trade at the deadline. Also, I'm not worried if we don't trade one of our pg's at the deadline. IF there's good value coming back, either good players or good draft picks, than sure, pull the trigger. BUT if nothing good is coming back, then don't make a trade. Jose is going to be a free agent this summer and Coangelo, Jose, and Jose's agent can all sit down and evaluate how much jose is looking for, what kind of role he wants, and whether he'd be happy to have those things in Toronto.

If the price is right and we are happy with the role he wants, we can explore trading lowry in the off-season as well.

I think what trades/players are available is more of a determining factor than choosing a direction and then trying to make that manifest.

"We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

“The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

Only 3 players on this team have less shots assisted than Demar. Lowry and Lucas (both PGs) and Jonas, who has had little run for him

Demar is assisted on 54% of his shots, the league average is 57%.

So yes, Demar is much more of an iso. or one on one player.

fair enough, just wondering if those stats are skewed a bit because of our 4-19 start when all we did was run iso's. If that's the case then we aren't very successful when he is an isolation player. Though I do miss seeing him post up like he did early on.

Has any other team even come close to the pg battles that toronto has? Houston maybe? I'd also be curious to see how our 2 pg's have stacked up against others teams 2 pg's. It would also be interesting to look at spending at the pg posistion versus other teams. Has this competition allowed us to be more productive at the point guard position than other teams? Have we got good value from it?

I'm willing to wager there haven't been any non-playoff teams that have had as many pg battles as Toronto has.

Calderon for sure as he's an expiring and his value can't be any higher than it is in a contract year.

Lowry can be moved as well if they are able to draft a pg in the draft this year (T. Burke comes to mind) which would of course require them obtaining a draft pick.

This team needs to be blown up with very few pieces retained (JV, ED, Amir, Ross (although I would trade him for a pick as well) or Derozan (harder to move based on his contract).

Focus on drafting again and making picks count (I would take Drummond over Ross 10 times out of 10) and let the players improve organically until you have a real core of youth. Not what Colangelo tells the fans what a young core is, but a real group of young players with a ceiling to grow.

There shouldnt have been a PG controversy, period. After Lowry came back from injury, he shouldnt have been told to come off the bench. If they felt like he wasnt 100%, they shouldnt have asked him to come back that soon.

Or, made him come off the bench for 2-3 games then made him start again. He's the starter, thats his role. He was acquired to be the starter.

Curry went down and Jack played exceptionally well. You dont see Jack still starting. Wall got injured, came back, came of the bench for a couple of games and is now starting again.

Calderon for sure as he's an expiring and his value can't be any higher than it is in a contract year.

Lowry can be moved as well if they are able to draft a pg in the draft this year (T. Burke comes to mind) which would of course require them obtaining a draft pick.

This team needs to be blown up with very few pieces retained (JV, ED, Amir, Ross (although I would trade him for a pick as well) or Derozan (harder to move based on his contract).

Focus on drafting again and making picks count (I would take Drummond over Ross 10 times out of 10) and let the players improve organically until you have a real core of youth. Not what Colangelo tells the fans what a young core is, but a real group of young players with a ceiling to grow.

I agree. At this point in time, neither is looking like an above average defender, pass-first PG-of-the-future.

I had high hopes for Lowry, but he's proven to be an inconsistent, overrated disappointment with a bad attitude (Ford? Jack? Bayless?). His greatest value to the team is as a trade asset on a favourable contract. As long as BC can get as much in return as he paid for Lowry, I'd be totally fine seeing him traded... nothing ventured, nothing gained.

I really like Calderon and would like to see him back next season, for a couple years as a backup/mentor. He should be traded though, from a purely asset-management perspective.

Even if a star young PG can't be acquired this season (or in the offseason), I see several solid veteran stop-gap option available, who could fill the position (with or without Calderon on the roster) next season. Depending on the potential trade, one/multiple PGs could even be part of the return for Lowry/Calderon/Bargnani etc... I think of guys like Ridnour on Minnesota or even Blake/Duhon on the Lakers, as examples.

The specific point I was attempting to make with that (I may not have communicated it right) was that if and when you decide on the PG it alters who fits better with this team in order to make a better team. I'm not interested in going over trades to get there it was more of a ... if you go with Lowry you need to target players that fill in the holes of his game and likewise with Calderon. The second point being, I actually don't know who is better for the team, Lowry or Jose, but a decision needs to occur before the trade deadline so that we are targeting the right assets...