The Orange County District Attorney on Friday morning filed charges against Jeffrey David Kirby in relation to the car accident that killed Charles "Mask" Lewis, the founder of popular mixed martial arts clothing company Tapout.

A statement from the Orange County DA's office stated that Kirby is a second-time drunken driver and accused of killing Lewis and injuring his girlfriend, Lacy Lynn White, when Kirby crashed his Porsche into Lewis' Ferrari, causing it to slam into a light pole. The Ferrari split in half upon impacting the pole.

Kirby, 51, of Costa Mesa, Calif., is charged with one felony count of vehicular manslaughter by unlawful act with gross negligence while intoxicated, one felony count of driving under the influence causing bodily injury, and sentencing enhancements for fleeing the scene of a vehicular manslaughter and causing great bodily injury to multiple victims. He has a prior conviction for driving under the influence in 2002.

Kirby faces a maximum sentence of 19 years and eight months in state prison if convicted. He is currently being held on $2 million bail and is scheduled to be arraigned Friday afternoon in Newport Beach.

Kirby is accused of speeding alongside a 2004 Ferrari driven by the 45-year-old Lewis, of Huntington Beach, losing control of his car due to his unsafe speed, and crashing into Lewis’ vehicle.

Lewis then lost control of his Ferrari, which crashed into a cement light pole. The Ferrari was torn in half. Kirby is accused of swerving and coming to a stop for several seconds before accelerating and fleeing the scene.

Lewis was trapped inside the front half of the Ferrari, which had to be dismantled in order to remove him. He was pronounced dead at the scene.

Lewis’ 23-year-old passenger, Lacy Lynn White, was ejected from the car and landed on the nearby dirt embankment. She was transported to Western Medical Center to be treated for a fractured elbow and several lacerations and abrasions. She is currently in stable condition, according to the Orange County DA statement.

After fleeing the scene, Kirby allegedly parked his Porsche on a nearby side street. A responding Newport Beach Police officer spotted the car and saw Kirby and a passenger from his car, 32-year-old Lynn Marie Nabozny, walking away. Both were then apprehended.

Kirby is accused of emitting an odor of alcohol, slurring his speech, and having bloodshot and watery eyes. He was arrested at the scene. At approximately 3:00 a.m., two hours after the crash, Kirby is accused of having a blood alcohol level of 0.13 percent. Nabozny was arrested for public intoxication and later released.

As stated, Charles "Mask" Lewis was one of the founders of Tapout. The company began as an effort of a small group of friends that had a passion for mixed martial arts and its fighters. From its humble beginnings, selling t-shirts out of the back of a car, Tapout has grown alongside the sport itself. Registering $29,000 in sales in 1999, according to The Press-Enterprise, Tapout's sales reportedly rose to $25 million by 2007 and were projected to be more than $100 million in 2008.

Mask – along with cohorts Dan "Punkass" Caldwell and Skyscrape – was an extremely popular figure in the mixed martial arts world, a site rarely missed at most major MMA events.

UFC president Dana White told Neil Davidson of the Canadian Press, "You couldn't meet a nicer guy, a more friendly, outgoing guy, a more loyal guy (than Mask). He really was a good person. He's one of the pioneers, one of the legends of this sport.

"This guy was selling T-shirts out of the trunk of his car and when we first got involved with the UFC, we met them. We really liked them. We liked their energy. They were good people and we got together and we started doing all this grassroots marketing together – the UFC and Tapout. They were very loyal to us and we were very loyal to them.

"And it sucks to see a guy who has worked so hard his whole life, to finally make it and break through, and then have something like this happen to him."

In his online blog, Tapout's Punkass said goodbye. "To my best friend in the world, you'll be forever missed, but always remembered."

does it sound like they are racing?
Kirby is accused of speeding alongside
and
losing control of his car due to his unsafe speed, and crashing into Lewis’ vehicle.

.13 is definitely something that will help prove the the driver was impaired. I hope they really did a good job on the procedural stuff when going with a DUI. There are so many technicalities that a half ass lawyer has been trained to bring up. They mention the BA level being .13 after two hours after the crash. Well, I hope they have different laws because in some states they have up to two hours to do a proper BA test.

If he was injured from a wreck, it is usually better, and safer for court, if you order an actual blood test to determine alcohol levels. Those results are usually harder to dispute as long as the proper chain of evidence is well documented.

Another problem they can run into is that no one on the prosecution side can actually testify under oath that they saw this guy driving. That's another technical biggie under DUI laws. What makes it worse, is that no one even saw him in control of the vehicle. This assumes he hasn't confessed, or that the passenger doesn't cut a deal and testify against him. These are all just things I've come across in court at one time or another that have proven difficult when you are dealing with 12 other people with their own minds and agendas.

atomdanger

03-14-2009, 08:04 AM

wow....

so the guy wrecked into him, then bailed?

Tyburn

03-15-2009, 01:09 AM

wow....

so the guy wrecked into him, then bailed?
Can we clarify....were they both speeding?

if so...sorry but I'm not sure they should prosecute, seems a bit harsh to prosecute the survivor IF BOTH adults were racing.

Now if it was a case of one care hitting another totally innocent car, who wasnt speeding, and wasnt racing, and that causing the death, then he should be done for Murder, its dangerous driving resulting in a "hit and run"

Lets not make this guy a saint if he wasnt one. dying, shouldnt vindicate you of all your guilt if you partake in something illegal.

Anyone answer the question I pose above :huh:

ufcfan2

03-15-2009, 02:34 AM

Can we clarify....were they both speeding?

if so...sorry but I'm not sure they should prosecute, seems a bit harsh to prosecute the survivor IF BOTH adults were racing.

Now if it was a case of one care hitting another totally innocent car, who wasnt speeding, and wasnt racing, and that causing the death, then he should be done for Murder, its dangerous driving resulting in a "hit and run"

Lets not make this guy a saint if he wasnt one. dying, shouldnt vindicate you of all your guilt if you partake in something illegal.

Anyone answer the question I pose above :huh:
I actually agree with Tyburns assesment of this situation. Though the report said nothing of a drag race or racing of anyform. Though the one part of him 'speeding alongside' makes ya wonder how fast "Mask" was going,were they racing or Mask just goin fast????

Tyburn

03-15-2009, 03:11 AM

I actually agree with Tyburns assesment of this situation. Though the report said nothing of a drag race or racing of anyform. Though the one part of him 'speeding alongside' makes ya wonder how fast "Mask" was going,were they racing or Mask just goin fast????
here is a thought...was Mask being chased.

Supposing you were driving along and a mad man starts charging up behind you, perhaps he even starts banging into you? your gonna speed up to get away...he speeds up along side and loses control, he collides with you..you lose control?

I'm not a CSI...but...thats why I asked for confirmation...I think it GREATLY effects the level of guilt with the survivor...if Mask voluntarily was breaking the law and racing...he's just as guilty. Niether deserve to die...but in that respect Mask would hardly be innocent.

People do have a natural tendancy to make saints out of the dead, just a matter of respect...but I'd like to know if GREAT detail the 10 mins BEFORE the collision that killed him.

MattHughesRocks

03-15-2009, 03:32 AM

Well, I think it's safe to say that if Mask was racing then he paid the price didn't he? The other one just goes to jail. Fair?

here is a thought...was Mask being chased.

Supposing you were driving along and a mad man starts charging up behind you, perhaps he even starts banging into you? your gonna speed up to get away...he speeds up along side and loses control, he collides with you..you lose control?

I'm not a CSI...but...thats why I asked for confirmation...I think it GREATLY effects the level of guilt with the survivor...if Mask voluntarily was breaking the law and racing...he's just as guilty. Niether deserve to die...but in that respect Mask would hardly be innocent.

People do have a natural tendancy to make saints out of the dead, just a matter of respect...but I'd like to know if GREAT detail the 10 mins BEFORE the collision that killed him.

Chuck

03-15-2009, 06:05 AM

Well, I think it's safe to say that if Mask was racing then he paid the price didn't he? The other one just goes to jail. Fair?

Death is the penalty for street racing??? :unsure-1:

Chuck

03-15-2009, 06:10 AM

Can we clarify....were they both speeding?

if so...sorry but I'm not sure they should prosecute, seems a bit harsh to prosecute the survivor IF BOTH adults were racing.

Now if it was a case of one care hitting another totally innocent car, who wasnt speeding, and wasnt racing, and that causing the death, then he should be done for Murder, its dangerous driving resulting in a "hit and run"

Lets not make this guy a saint if he wasnt one. dying, shouldnt vindicate you of all your guilt if you partake in something illegal.

Anyone answer the question I pose above :huh:

Big difference between speeding and racing... but I don't think the guy should walk either way.

Even if Mask was racing the guy should still be held accountable for contributing to his death. You can be racing somebody by doing 10 over the speed limit... if the guys lost control of his car and forced Mask off the road then speeding/racing or not... he needs to be accountable.

Masks breaking of the law (speeding/racing) shouldn't negate the others guys breaking of the law.

MattHughesRocks

03-15-2009, 06:20 AM

No not at all. I was just being sarcastic because of the couple of people acting like he deserved it because he was probably speeding.:blink:

Death is the penalty for street racing??? :unsure-1:

Chuck

03-15-2009, 06:37 AM

No not at all. I was just being sarcastic because of the couple of people acting like he deserved it because he was probably speeding.:blink:

Whew!!!!! :)

Tyburn

03-15-2009, 08:57 PM

Well, I think it's safe to say that if Mask was racing then he paid the price didn't he? The other one just goes to jail. Fair?
:ninja: not really.

Dont you think accidentally killing something whilst doing a stupid activity is likely to be punishment enough? If it was an accident that the deceased actually partook in, it wasnt something that befell him, in quite the same way as if he was actually murdered...which, if he wasnt racing, or was speeding to get away, would make the living party eligable for the death penalty I would hope.

matthughesfan21

03-15-2009, 09:23 PM

:ninja: not really.

Dont you think accidentally killing something whilst doing a stupid activity is likely to be punishment enough? If it was an accident that the deceased actually partook in, it wasnt something that befell him, in quite the same way as if he was actually murdered...which, if he wasnt racing, or was speeding to get away, would make the living party eligable for the death penalty I would hope.
I don't think the guy gives a rats butt about guilt factor and all that....If he saw the car crash, then proceeded to drive off, I am not so sure he is such a person that knowing he caused a death would really eat at him that much

Tyburn

03-15-2009, 11:27 PM

I don't think the guy gives a rats butt about guilt factor and all that....If he saw the car crash, then proceeded to drive off, I am not so sure he is such a person that knowing he caused a death would really eat at him that much
If he had no guilt, he wouldnt have driven away.

He left the scene because he knew what he had done, and he knew it was wrong. He didnt want to get caught.

Didnt they find him sitting in his car a little way off...just sitting there...is that usual behaviour for someone who has just killed someone and doesnt care :ninja:

TexasRN

03-16-2009, 12:03 AM

If he had no guilt, he wouldnt have driven away.

He left the scene because he knew what he had done, and he knew it was wrong. He didnt want to get caught.

Didnt they find him sitting in his car a little way off...just sitting there...is that usual behaviour for someone who has just killed someone and doesnt care :ninja:

Sometimes punishment is for the victim's loved ones to feel better, not just to punish the bad guy. I don't care whether he feels guilt or not. If he committed a crime, he should do the time. Period. Makes me heartless sounding but I don't give a rat's butt. :w00t:

~Amy

ufcfan2

03-16-2009, 12:14 AM

Sometimes punishment is for the victim's loved ones to feel better, not just to punish the bad guy. I don't care whether he feels guilt or not. If he committed a crime, he should do the time. Period. Makes me heartless sounding but I don't give a rat's butt. :w00t:

~Amy
I don't think punishing someone just to make someone else feel better is a good enough reason to punish ppl. If that was the case then I want them to punish my ex-CEO for causing me financial grief and emotional issues.:blink:
The bottom line is he commited a crime and should be punished accordingly.
Now were they racing or did the guy just happen to lose control as he was passing 'Mask'?

TexasRN

03-16-2009, 12:20 AM

I don't think punishing someone just to make someone else feel better is a good enough reason to punish ppl. If that was the case then I want them to punish my ex-CEO for causing me financial grief and emotional issues.:blink:
The bottom line is he commited a crime and should be punished accordingly.
Now were they racing or did the guy just happen to lose control as he was passing 'Mask'?

I'm not saying that is the only reason to punish someone. But for me, it is a part of it. If someone kills one of my loved ones I know I would sleep better knowing they were being punished. Justice feels good.

~Amy

Tyburn

03-16-2009, 12:37 AM

Sometimes punishment is for the victim's loved ones to feel better, not just to punish the bad guy. I don't care whether he feels guilt or not. If he committed a crime, he should do the time. Period. Makes me heartless sounding but I don't give a rat's butt. :w00t:

~Amy
Vengence is Mine saith The Lord

I dont go in for Vengance. I go in for Justice. Making someone pay to make someone else feel good doesnt cut it. Thats not Justice. It might be Equality, but Equality is not Justice...it ends up being revenge....and believe me...it wont make you feel better if years later he begs your forgiveness...YOU will then feel guilty.

If someone murders one of my family. Then it will be tragic. But if it was an accident, and my family member was breaking the law at the time, then I wont insist on a penalty against the other party. Why ruin two lives? It reminds me of the Parents of the Christian Woman who got blown up in the Tavastock Bus bomb.

"We forgive the bombers who killed our Daughter, because we are Christians, it is what we are called to do"

They said that less then a WEEK after the death of their only child.
:ninja:

Neezar

03-16-2009, 04:57 AM

I dont go in for Vengance. I go in for Justice.
:ninja:

Justice = You do the crime = You do the time.

It doesn't matter what ANYONE else around you were doing, does it?

Speeding is breaking the law. Racing is breaking the law. Causing an accident (not really an accident if you ask me - accidents don't happen. Someone just f's up.) is a crime. Leaving the scene of an accident is a crime.

Dave, I am shocked at your opinion here. If you break the law then you should have to pay the price. It doesn't matter that someone else did it to.

F34R

03-16-2009, 05:04 AM

If they were racing, regardless, there are charges for him partaking in that. It's called to Aquiesce in Racing. Now bring in that he lost control, hit the other car, caused the crash, allegedly intoxicated, etc. Yea, he should be charged. All that information that has been released is definitely probably cause for an arrest.

atomdanger

03-16-2009, 06:58 AM

Justice = You do the crime = You do the time.

It doesn't matter what ANYONE else around you were doing, does it?

Speeding is breaking the law. Racing is breaking the law. Causing an accident (not really an accident if you ask me - accidents don't happen. Someone just f's up.) is a crime. Leaving the scene of an accident is a crime.

Dave, I am shocked at your opinion here. If you break the law then you should have to pay the price. It doesn't matter that someone else did it to.

I see where he is coming from,
it was more a group of people breaking the law, and the one who lived is going to jail for it.

If mask would have lived would they charge him with speeding and racing?
Maybe... but unlikely.
Maybe wreckless driving.

its like if you and I go rob a house together (extreme example)
and while doing so you get hurt and die, why should I get charged with murder?

Anyhow, I do think he should get charged,
I can just see where dave is coming from

VCURamFan

03-16-2009, 07:04 AM

I see where he is coming from,
it was more a group of people breaking the law, and the one who lived is going to jail for it.

If mask would have lived would they charge him with speeding and racing?
Maybe... but unlikely.
Maybe wreckless driving.

its like if you and I go rob a house together (extreme example)
and while doing so you get hurt and die, why should I get charged with murder?

Anyhow, I do think he should get charged,
I can just see where dave is coming fromThat's a completely different situation, though. I mean, in your example, if your partner died because a gun you were carrying accidentally went off & hit him, then yeah, you'd get charged with murder. But if he fell off a ladder around back & broke his back while you were trying the front door, then that's not on you.

Tyburn

03-16-2009, 12:29 PM

I see where he is coming from,
it was more a group of people breaking the law, and the one who lived is going to jail for it.

If mask would have lived would they charge him with speeding and racing?
Maybe... but unlikely.
Maybe wreckless driving.

its like if you and I go rob a house together (extreme example)
and while doing so you get hurt and die, why should I get charged with murder?

Anyhow, I do think he should get charged,
I can just see where dave is coming from

Exactly!

what if it were the other way round? I hear so many people say what a lovely person he was. I havent worked out if they are saying that just because he's died. But they do make him sound like he was one of the nicest people around. Does a nice, good hearted character race cars....? Break the law...?

What if Mask had been the one to survive...would you be so quick to condemn him for an accident that killed the other guy if he KNEW what he was getting himself in for...if he KNEW it was against the law.

I'm sure you could do him strictly for racing, or speeding, or drinking under the influence...you could possibly do him for death by dangerous driving...but you CANT charge him for Murder if the other guy was a willing participent in the illegal activity.

Llamafighter

03-16-2009, 01:42 PM

Exactly!

what if it were the other way round? I hear so many people say what a lovely person he was. I havent worked out if they are saying that just because he's died. But they do make him sound like he was one of the nicest people around. Does a nice, good hearted character race cars....? Break the law...?

What if Mask had been the one to survive...would you be so quick to condemn him for an accident that killed the other guy if he KNEW what he was getting himself in for...if he KNEW it was against the law.

I'm sure you could do him strictly for racing, or speeding, or drinking under the influence...you could possibly do him for death by dangerous driving...but you CANT charge him for Murder if the other guy was a willing participent in the illegal activity.

It's not proven that Mask was racing (that I've heard). The other guy was drinking and ran into him.

Tyburn

03-16-2009, 01:49 PM

It's not proven that Mask was racing (that I've heard). The other guy was drinking and ran into him.
This is why I've asked for clarification.

See, if Mask wasnt racing...then its Murder. If its Murder, the driver of the other car should be executed. :ninja:

It totally depends on what Mask was doing. How much was he inadvertently culpable for his own death? Not at all, an complete innocent, the other guy deserves death row, completely involved in racing, a tragic accident, then his death shouldnt be attributed in its entirety on the other driver.

its absolutely impreative that we know WHAT Mask was doing in the car. Does anyone know FOR SURE :huh:

Neezar

03-16-2009, 03:28 PM

Exactly!

what if it were the other way round? I hear so many people say what a lovely person he was. I havent worked out if they are saying that just because he's died. But they do make him sound like he was one of the nicest people around. Does a nice, good hearted character race cars....? Break the law...?

What if Mask had been the one to survive...would you be so quick to condemn him for an accident that killed the other guy if he KNEW what he was getting himself in for...if he KNEW it was against the law.

I'm sure you could do him strictly for racing, or speeding, or drinking under the influence...you could possibly do him for death by dangerous driving...but you CANT charge him for Murder if the other guy was a willing participent in the illegal activity.

It isn't murder. It is negligent homicide. A death occurs while someone is being negligent.

If two people are out drinking and have a wreck and the passenger dies the driver gets charged with negligent homicide. Did the passenger knowingly get into the car with a drunk driver? Yes. Dosen't matter though. The driver has to answer for his actions. REGARDLESS of the other parties actions.

Does it seem fair that someone shouldn't be punished for a crime because the other party is unable to be punished due to death?

Neezar

03-16-2009, 03:39 PM

: What is "Gross Negligence?" A: Gross negligence is defined as driving without caution and without concern for the safety of others. It means a high level of recklessness. But a charge of "vehicular manslaughter with gross negligence" may not be based merely upon driving under the influence of alcohol. Other facts must be present, for example speeding (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22348.htm), racing (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc23109.htm), running traffic lights (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21462.htm), and/or ignoring the advice of others not to drive.

***************

Gross Vehicular Manslaughter While DUI

Gross vehicular manslaughter while intoxicated is the most serious DUI-related offense short of murder. The offense is charged in situations where a driver is DUI, is driving in a highly reckless manner, and the reckless driving causes the death of another person. The penalty for conviction is up to ten years of state prison (per person killed).
If the defendant has had a prior DUI (this guy did) or has a particular reason to know the dangers of drunk driving, the prosecutor may charge second degree murder as well.

Below is an adaptation from the Judicial Council of California's jury instruction on this offense. It defines what a jury must find in order to convict a person of gross vehicular manslaughter while intoxicated:
To prove that the defendant is guilty of this crime, the People must prove that:

1. The defendant drove a vehicle while under the influence of alcohol and/or drugs (in effect, that he was DUI), or that he drove with an excessive Blood Alcohol Concentration (BAC);

2. While DUI or driving with an excessive BAC, the defendant also committed a misdemeanor or traffic infraction or otherwise lawful act that might cause death;

3. The defendant committed the misdemeanor or traffic infraction or otherwise lawful act that might cause death with gross negligence;
AND

4. The defendant's gross negligent conduct caused the death of another person.

Gross negligence involves more than ordinary carelessness, inattention, or mistake in judgment. A person acts with gross negligence when:

1. He or she acts in a reckless way that creates a high risk of death or great bodily injury;
AND

2. A reasonable person would have known that acting in that way would create such a risk.

Neezar

03-16-2009, 03:40 PM

its absolutely impreative that we know WHAT Mask was doing in the car. Does anyone know FOR SURE :huh:

Why is that imperative? If we get killed while breaking the law, Dave, does that mean our murderer goes free?

Llamafighter

03-16-2009, 03:51 PM

This is why I've asked for clarification.

See, if Mask wasnt racing...then its Murder. If its Murder, the driver of the other car should be executed. :ninja:

It totally depends on what Mask was doing. How much was he inadvertently culpable for his own death? Not at all, an complete innocent, the other guy deserves death row, completely involved in racing, a tragic accident, then his death shouldnt be attributed in its entirety on the other driver.

its absolutely impreative that we know WHAT Mask was doing in the car. Does anyone know FOR SURE :huh:

I'm sure his passenger will be able to shed some light on what happened, as well as the other driver.

Chuck

03-16-2009, 04:24 PM

I havent worked out if they are saying that just because he's died. But they do make him sound like he was one of the nicest people around. Does a nice, good hearted character race cars....? Break the law...?
Have you ever read Matt's book???? Would you consider Matt a nice, good hearted character?

What if Mask had been the one to survive...would you be so quick to condemn him for an accident that killed the other guy if he KNEW what he was getting himself in for...if he KNEW it was against the law.
Do you remember this place when Page went on his little driving spree?? Nobody excused his behavior, why do you think we would to Mask??

I'm sure you could do him strictly for racing, or speeding, or drinking under the influence...you could possibly do him for death by dangerous driving...but you CANT charge him for Murder if the other guy was a willing participent in the illegal activity.

Really Dave???? Think for a minute here brother....

Crisco

03-16-2009, 04:46 PM

Daves view of the law cracks me up sometimes hehe.

Maybe it's because I was raised around law breakers. I don't do it myself but breaking silly laws are part of every day life.

Everyone breaks a law now and again especially in this country as it trys to control us more and more everyday.

Tyburn

03-16-2009, 04:51 PM

Why is that imperative? If we get killed while breaking the law, Dave, does that mean our murderer goes free?
It means he shouldnt be charged for Murder, but only manslaughter or death by dangerous driving.

If they were BOTH racing that the other party is not the only guilty one is he?

If niether of them were racing, and infact one was just speeding or playing sillybeggers and the other was trying to get away, then the deceased is free of any blame, the blame isnt shared between both, its solidly with one party.

It might be accidental murder...but its still got more intent because the victim is innocent and not another criminal.

Tyburn

03-16-2009, 04:56 PM

Really Dave???? Think for a minute here brother....
1) does Matt break the law? or has he changed sinse becoming a Christian??

2) Mask is dead, Rampage is not. Now...had Rampage been shot and killed by the police, you tell me...would people be saying "Rampage got shot coz he broke the law" or "He might have broken the law but didnt deserve to be shot"

Death does funny things to people. Remember when Evan Tanner died, people were suddenly saying he should be inducted into the UFC hall of fame for no other reason then he had a tragic death.

Lets not let death cloud the issue. The key to all this is what Mask was doing in that car. Was he an innocent man fleeing a threat, or was he a co-criminal racing along side the guy who would trigger his death?

Was he innocently killed, or was it partly his own fault?

Neezar

03-16-2009, 05:25 PM

Lets not let death cloud the issue. The key to all this is what Mask was doing in that car. Was he an innocent man fleeing a threat, or was he a co-criminal racing along side the guy who would trigger his death?

Was he innocently killed, or was it partly his own fault?

YOU are the one that first said that his death should be punishment enough for the other guy. :laugh: So, YOU don't let death cloud the issue.

Answer my questions.

1) If I am killed while breaking the law then should my killer get a lesser punishment?

2) Okay, take the death factor out. If both are caught commiting a crime should one get a lesser sentence because someone else was involved?

Tyburn

03-16-2009, 05:30 PM

YOU are the one that first said that his death should be punishment enough for the other guy. :laugh: So, YOU don't let death cloud the issue.

Answer my questions.

1) If I am killed while breaking the law then should my killer get a lesser punishment?

2) Okay, take the death factor out. If both are caught commiting a crime should one get a lesser sentence because someone else was involved?
1) Yes, because you are not innocent of a crime (The law is there to protect innocents, it is not there to protect people who have already forfitted the law in some way)

2) No, but both should face the same charges if they committ the same crime

Neezar

03-16-2009, 05:39 PM

1) Yes, because you are not innocent of a crime (The law is there to protect innocents, it is not there to protect people who have already forfitted the law in some way)

2) No, but both should face the same charges if they committ the same crime

1) So, if I go out and shoot a criminal then I should recieve a lesser punishment? I never got this impression from you before. I thought you contending that someone who shot and killed someone who was breaking into their house should be punished to the fullest extent. I see this as you are almost defending vigilante justice. :w00t: Rock on, Dave!

Maybe the guy in the Porsche saw Mask speeding and decided to stop him before he killed someone! War Porsche guy! Protecting the innocent. :laugh:

2) If one guilty party dies before going to court, should the one left not be punished because the other can't be punished with him?

(If Mask had lived he would face the same charges if the other guy had died, right? :unsure-1: )

Neezar

03-16-2009, 05:41 PM

2) No, but both should face the same charges if they committ the same crime

btw, They didn't commit the same crime. One's actions led to the death of another. Mask's actions didn't lead to anyone else's death. You can't be charged criminally with causing your own death, can you?

Chuck

03-16-2009, 05:41 PM

1) does Matt break the law? or has he changed sinse becoming a Christian??
I'm sure he does Dave. Does that change your opinion of him now?

2) Mask is dead, Rampage is not. Now...had Rampage been shot and killed by the police, you tell me...would people be saying "Rampage got shot coz he broke the law" or "He might have broken the law but didnt deserve to be shot"
Big difference there Dave.

Death does funny things to people. Remember when Evan Tanner died, people were suddenly saying he should be inducted into the UFC hall of fame for no other reason then he had a tragic death.
I completely agree. No bad person has ever died. Whenever somebody dies all you hear about is how wonderful they are. I think it's silly too!

Lets not let death cloud the issue. The key to all this is what Mask was doing in that car. Was he an innocent man fleeing a threat, or was he a co-criminal racing along side the guy who would trigger his death?
EVEN if he was racing it still makes his death the fault of the other driver. The other driver LOST CONTROL of his car and hit mask, thus causing the accident.

Was he innocently killed, or was it partly his own fault?
Here you go....

lc87

03-16-2009, 06:02 PM

Didn't rampages accident cause the lady to have a miscarrage? Or was that false and coincidental? I never heard anything else on that particular subject. But if in fact it was his fault he did kill someone.

I've been through a couple miscarrages and they are tough to deal with. I remember back in last febuary I posted a thread about being a first time dad and being so excited when we first found out she was prego then she miscarried and I was so saddened by it I couldn't even post what happened. So I was afraid to post about when we found out this time incase the same thing happened. But here anytime now we are expecting a little girl any time now she is supposed to make her appearance.

Tyburn

03-16-2009, 06:43 PM

1) So, if I go out and shoot a criminal then I should recieve a lesser punishment? I never got this impression from you before. I thought you contending that someone who shot and killed someone who was breaking into their house should be punished to the fullest extent. I see this as you are almost defending vigilante justice. :w00t: Rock on, Dave!

Maybe the guy in the Porsche saw Mask speeding and decided to stop him before he killed someone! War Porsche guy! Protecting the innocent. :laugh:

2) If one guilty party dies before going to court, should the one left not be punished because the other can't be punished with him?

(If Mask had lived he would face the same charges if the other guy had died, right? :unsure-1: )
1) thats because you dont listen to me. I am the guy who argues that if you are a criminal you should be treated like a criminal. That you shouldnt be entitled to anything but the basics of human rights BECAUSE Human rights, are given to you by the law

Break that law and why do you then try to use it to protect you. In the United States I hear they have mercinaries who are hired to break the law in order to catch criminals...dont you call them bounty hunters??

I dont think many people realize that Criminals are NOT Citizens. Citizens follow the law, thats why the law protects them. Criminals break the law, why should the law protect them?

Hopefully your morals will stop you from illicitly trying to stop criminals, thats what law enforcement is for. But...and hear again, you havent read the write up I wrote in the other section for "The International" which reminds us that the reason Justice belongs to GOD is because...sometimes you cant meat out justice without yourself breaking the law.

Ethically speaking, if Murder is wrong, what right does a State have to Murder the Muderer?? The answer is, that rule applies to society. Criminals set themselves out of society. You live by the sword, you die by it. The State simply gives them Justice in a way they understand, they are not governed by the law, so it is not an offense for the State to kill them. They are not citizens, they are criminals.

2) No. the Justice process begins when they are charged, if both are living when charged, it doesnt matter if one dies after that before Justice is served. They both took a portion of the blame when the course of Justice began.

Tyburn

03-16-2009, 06:56 PM

Here you go....
1) We're not talking about breaking copywrite law Chuck...we're talking about consequences that are serious. I very much doubt that Matt Hughes races cars in an illicit sense, I very much doubt he committs fraud, I very much doubt he committs any crime that would/could lead to someones death deliberatley.

2) No actually there isnt. That illustrates my point entirely

3) There is a line between respecting the dead, and effectively cannonizing them. Before his death I heard an increasing amount of disdain towards Tapout, there brand was seen not to be a companion of christian values, and wasnt their TV thing a little bit frowned on at times? Look at the way they dressed and even at the psedonymns they called themselves. There was an image, that some found offensive.

Course...now that he's dead, well...all of a sudden, He's a saint. He revolutionized MMA, he was the nicest most decent person you could ever meet.

Now dont get me wrong, I know almost nothing about him. But ive seen this happen a lot. death in itself suddenly changes the person and how they were seen by the public.

I bet those who thought that Evan Tanner should have retired, have suddenly changed their minds to think he should be in the hall of fame.

Its the same sort of thing. I dont know how much of that is going on with Mask. I dont know what he was honnestly like before he died. So I'm keeping an open mind and speaking as if he was any normal human being. He might be innocent, he might not...thats why I keep asking for clarification

4) No, if they were both racing it was BOTH of their faults. IF they were racing then Mask wouldnt have been killed had he not been breaking the law. He is as much responsible for his own actions as the other driver. If they were racing, firstly niether of them MEANT to kill the other. One lost control of the car, the other one wouldnt have been killed if he hadnt been racing in the first place. Infact...you could say that whilst not responsible for his own death, IF they were both racing, NIETHER could help losing control. The living party couldnt help crashing into Mask...but Mask COULD have helpped being in the race. Losing control is an accident...but noone accidently finds themselves racing...unless they are being chased...in which case it is NOT a race.

lc87

03-16-2009, 07:29 PM

Wasn't mask's girlgriend ejected from the car? Has anyone heard how she is doing? ir has she released a statement of what actually happened? Or the other parties released a statement?

I just wish we hd those facts. Then we could know if they were racing and if money was involved as motive for the crash? Like if they had a lot of money on the line and he bumped him to slow him down and lost control.

But without all of the facts its just a guess on what really happened.

Tyburn

03-16-2009, 07:42 PM

Wasn't mask's girlgriend ejected from the car? Has anyone heard how she is doing? ir has she released a statement of what actually happened? Or the other parties released a statement?

I just wish we hd those facts. Then we could know if they were racing and if money was involved as motive for the crash? Like if they had a lot of money on the line and he bumped him to slow him down and lost control.

But without all of the facts its just a guess on what really happened.
Thats interesting, but what motivation would Mask have to race for money. He's founder of Tapout...he's going to have plenty of wealth....plus...i'd find it strange that he would race for money etc with his girlfriend in the car.

I was assuming if they were racing it was a spur of the moment type thing :huh:

Neezar

03-16-2009, 08:02 PM

1) So, if I go out and shoot a criminal then I should recieve a lesser punishment?

You never answered this question.

2) If one guilty party dies before going to court, should the one left not be punished because the other can't be punished with him?

(If Mask had lived he would face the same charges if the other guy had died, right? :unsure-1: )

1) thats because you dont listen to me. I am the guy who argues that if you are a criminal you should be treated like a criminal. That you shouldnt be entitled to anything but the basics of human rights BECAUSE Human rights, are given to you by the law

Would you say that not being killed because you are racing a basic human right?

Break that law and why do you then try to use it to protect you.
Wouldn't this apply to a burglar or tresspasser on your property?

In the United States I hear they have mercinaries who are hired to break the law in order to catch criminals...dont you call them bounty hunters??

I dont think many people realize that Criminals are NOT Citizens. Citizens follow the law, thats why the law protects them. Criminals break the law, why should the law protect them?

Hopefully your morals will stop you from illicitly trying to stop criminals, thats what law enforcement is for. But...and hear again, you havent read the write up I wrote in the other section for "The International" which reminds us that the reason Justice belongs to GOD is because...sometimes you cant meat out justice without yourself breaking the law. But we aren't talking about a citizen meating (lol) out justice; we are talking about the law.

Ethically speaking, if Murder is wrong, what right does a State have to Murder the Muderer?? The answer is, that rule applies to society. Criminals set themselves out of society. You live by the sword, you die by it. The State simply gives them Justice in a way they understand, they are not governed by the law, so it is not an offense for the State to kill them. They are not citizens, they are criminals. And the State in this case says that the other driver should be punished for his actions, regardless of the other person's actions. Otherwise, you couldn't prosecute for vigilante justice.

2) No. the Justice process begins when they are charged, if both are living when charged, it doesnt matter if one dies after that before Justice is served. They both took a portion of the blame when the course of Justice began.

Why did you add that clause 'if both are living'? If one of two criminals gets shot during the crime then does the other get off free because they couldn't charge the dead with a crime before he died? That just doesn't make sense to me. And didn't you say to take the death factor out.

Neezar

03-16-2009, 08:07 PM

3) There is a line between respecting the dead, and effectively cannonizing them. Before his death I heard an increasing amount of disdain towards Tapout, there brand was seen not to be a companion of christian values, and wasnt their TV thing a little bit frowned on at times? Look at the way they dressed and even at the psedonymns they called themselves. There was an image, that some found offensive.

Course...now that he's dead, well...all of a sudden, He's a saint. He revolutionized MMA, he was the nicest most decent person you could ever meet.

Now dont get me wrong, I know almost nothing about him. But ive seen this happen a lot. death in itself suddenly changes the person and how they were seen by the public.

I bet those who thought that Evan Tanner should have retired, have suddenly changed their minds to think he should be in the hall of fame.

Its the same sort of thing. I dont know how much of that is going on with Mask. I dont know what he was honnestly like before he died. So I'm keeping an open mind and speaking as if he was any normal human being. (wth? what else would he be? :unsure-1: ) He might be innocent, he might not...thats why I keep asking for clarification

Dave, that sounds like you are trying to justify his death because he wasn't the kind of person that you think you would admire. :scared0015:

4) No, if they were both racing it was BOTH of their faults. IF they were racing then Mask wouldnt have been killed had he not been breaking the law. He is as much responsible for his own actions as the other driver. If they were racing, firstly niether of them MEANT to kill the other. One lost control of the car, the other one wouldnt have been killed if he hadnt been racing in the first place. Infact...you could say that whilst not responsible for his own death, IF they were both racing, NIETHER could help losing control. The living party couldnt help crashing into Mask...but Mask COULD have helpped being in the race. Losing control is an accident...but noone accidently finds themselves racing...unless they are being chased...in which case it is NOT a race.

Dave, if we find that Mask was equally at fault for racing then do you think that Porsche guy should still be charged with the crimes that he was committing?

btw - negligent homicide has nothing to do with intention or 'meaning to'.

Tyburn

03-16-2009, 09:07 PM

Why did you add that clause 'if both are living'? If one of two criminals gets shot during the crime then does the other get off free because they couldn't charge the dead with a crime before he died? That just doesn't make sense to me. And didn't you say to take the death factor out.
Hang on, because a shooting by a police officer is different, from a criminal being killed by another criminal.

Tyburn

03-16-2009, 09:09 PM

Dave, if we find that Mask was equally at fault for racing then do you think that Porsche guy should still be charged with the crimes that he was committing?

btw - negligent homicide has nothing to do with intention or 'meaning to'.
He could be charged with offenses that related to dangerous driving, to hit and run, and to driving whilst under the influence.

He shouldnt be tried for the death of the other guy...well possibly manslaughter I suppose...but he shouldnt be charged with Murder...Homicide is Murder...correct? (I only know that coz I watch CSI :ashamed: )

Neezar

03-16-2009, 09:17 PM

He could be charged with offenses that related to dangerous driving, to hit and run, and to driving whilst under the influence.

He shouldnt be tried for the death of the other guy...well possibly manslaughter I suppose...but he shouldnt be charged with Murder...Homicide is Murder...correct? (I only know that coz I watch CSI :ashamed: )

I think I posted the definition of negligent homicide and/or vehicular homicide.

However, in California if you have been arrested with DUI before and and understand the dangers (Porsche guy had been arrested before) then it CAN be changed to murder. :ninja: I don't think they will charge him with that but he is guilty of vehicular homicide, no doubt.

Neezar

03-16-2009, 09:19 PM

Hang on, because a shooting by a police officer is different, from a criminal being killed by another criminal.

Dave! You frustrating little tink! :punch:

Okay, what if they were running from the law, after committing a crime, and one...oh hell, let's say he falls off a cliff and dies. Do you prosecute the other one or not?

:laugh:

Tyburn

03-17-2009, 01:33 AM

Dave! You frustrating little tink! :punch:

Okay, what if they were running from the law, after committing a crime, and one...oh hell, let's say he falls off a cliff and dies. Do you prosecute the other one or not?

:laugh:
:laugh: Charge him as he drops, and so long as he is under arrest before hitting the ground...sure

:laugh: :laugh: I hate the way you make me look so....stupid :angry:

TexasRN

03-17-2009, 01:46 AM

Didn't rampages accident cause the lady to have a miscarrage? Or was that false and coincidental? I never heard anything else on that particular subject. But if in fact it was his fault he did kill someone.

I've been through a couple miscarrages and they are tough to deal with. I remember back in last febuary I posted a thread about being a first time dad and being so excited when we first found out she was prego then she miscarried and I was so saddened by it I couldn't even post what happened. So I was afraid to post about when we found out this time incase the same thing happened. But here anytime now we are expecting a little girl any time now she is supposed to make her appearance.

Miscarriage is a tragic thing for anyone to go thru but there was something wrong with the pregnancy prior to the wreck Rampage caused. From the way the medical info came out it sounds like the baby wasn't viable from the beginning.

Congrats on the little one coming!!! I work for a perinatologist and I see high risk pregnancies every day. Each one that turns out a baby is a miracle in my eyes.

~Amy

lc87

03-17-2009, 03:24 AM

Miscarriage is a tragic thing for anyone to go thru but there was something wrong with the pregnancy prior to the wreck Rampage caused. From the way the medical info came out it sounds like the baby wasn't viable from the beginning.

Congrats on the little one coming!!! I work for a perinatologist and I see high risk pregnancies every day. Each one that turns out a baby is a miracle in my eyes.

~Amy

Alright that makes sense just a bad situation all together. Its too bad for them though.

Thanks for the support and encouraging words. We can't wait her due date is wednesday so anytime now I guess.

Neezar

03-17-2009, 05:31 AM

Kirby, 51, of Costa Mesa, Calif., is charged with one felony count of vehicular manslaughter by unlawful act with gross negligence while intoxicated, one felony count of driving under the influence causing bodily injury, and sentencing enhancements for fleeing the scene of a vehicular manslaughter and causing great bodily injury to multiple victims. He has a prior conviction for driving under the influence in 2002.

Chuck

03-17-2009, 05:46 AM

Kirby, 51, of Costa Mesa, Calif., is charged with one felony count of vehicular manslaughter by unlawful act with gross negligence while intoxicated, one felony count of driving under the influence causing bodily injury, and sentencing enhancements for fleeing the scene of a vehicular manslaughter and causing great bodily injury to multiple victims. He has a prior conviction for driving under the influence in 2002.

I don't see anything here about racing............ :wink:

Neezar

03-17-2009, 06:36 AM

I don't see anything here about racing............ :wink:

Maybe Dave can get a little rest now. :laugh:

Tyburn

03-17-2009, 01:36 PM

Maybe Dave can get a little rest now. :laugh:
Far from it.

If he wasnt racing...he should be prosecuted for Murder. How was it an accident to ram a car at high speed, if you werent racing??

If that be the case. I say hang him :ninja:

matthughesfan21

03-17-2009, 02:47 PM

Far from it.

If he wasnt racing...he should be prosecuted for Murder. How was it an accident to ram a car at high speed, if you werent racing??

If that be the case. I say hang him :ninja:I say put him in his porsche, and guide it at high speed towards a wall

Chuck

03-17-2009, 04:09 PM

Far from it.

If he wasnt racing...he should be prosecuted for Murder. How was it an accident to ram a car at high speed, if you werent racing??

If that be the case. I say hang him :ninja:

Dave it's a good thing you don't bounce from one extreme to another!!!! :tongue0011:

Llamafighter

03-17-2009, 04:54 PM

Dave it's a good thing you don't bounce from one extreme to another!!!! :tongue0011:

You've forgotten that Dave now has a TAPOUT hat so...:wink:

Tyburn

03-17-2009, 06:40 PM

Dave it's a good thing you don't bounce from one extreme to another!!!! :tongue0011:
I am all encompassing :laugh:

Listen, different circumstances, eqaul different results. Two guys race, one gets killed, its both of their faults, dont just blame one.

One guy chases another and kills him, its murder, its all his fault, hang him :ninja:

Tyburn

03-17-2009, 06:42 PM

I say put him in his porsche, and guide it at high speed towards a wall
:unsure: no, make a public spectical out of it.

:) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_sM86GnH7A :w00t:

Chuck

03-17-2009, 08:45 PM

I am all encompassing :laugh:

Listen, different circumstances, eqaul different results. Two guys race, one gets killed, its both of their faults, dont just blame one.
both are at fault for racing yes... but only the negligent driver is at fault for causing a wreck that takes a human life.

One guy chases another and kills him, its murder, its all his fault, hang him :ninja:
guy is negligent in his driving and a person dies as a result.. manslaughter, not murder.

very different Dave...

Tyburn

03-17-2009, 09:07 PM

very different Dave...
1) Absolutely not. If you break the law you put yourself in harms way deliberatley. You didnt race by accident, you KNEW what could happen. Its as much your fault for being on the road next to him in such a situation, as it is that he loses control of his car. You are at least half to blame for your own death.

2) Nope, in a chase, one person is complying with the law, therefore if death occures, it is through no fault of his own, and complete fault of the other. Murder without intent, but still MURDER, because the victim has in no way coorperated with the criminal prior to his death

:rolleyes:

Crisco

03-17-2009, 09:35 PM

1) Absolutely not. If you break the law you put yourself in harms way deliberatley. You didnt race by accident, you KNEW what could happen. Its as much your fault for being on the road next to him in such a situation, as it is that he loses control of his car. You are at least half to blame for your own death.

2) Nope, in a chase, one person is complying with the law, therefore if death occures, it is through no fault of his own, and complete fault of the other. Murder without intent, but still MURDER, because the victim has in no way coorperated with the criminal prior to his death

:rolleyes:

Your opinions on this subject are completely nuts.

It's called personal responsibility. Mask knew what he was doing Dave. He killed himself by his actions. The other guy should lose his license and get a speeding ticket. Unless he knocked Mask off the road it had nothing to do with him.

Everyone in this country is so keen on passing the buck to the next guy I guess it's prevelant in Europe too. Oh mask crashed when racing lets try the other guy for murder.

Thats retarded.

Tyburn

03-17-2009, 10:02 PM

Your opinions on this subject are completely nuts.

It's called personal responsibility. Mask knew what he was doing Dave. He killed himself by his actions. The other guy should lose his license and get a speeding ticket. Unless he knocked Mask off the road it had nothing to do with him.

Everyone in this country is so keen on passing the buck to the next guy I guess it's prevelant in Europe too. Oh mask crashed when racing lets try the other guy for murder.

Thats retarded.
:blink: do you have a reading problem?

arent I the only one who aggrees with what you said above?

Only try the guy for Murder if Mask WASNT racing...:huh:

isnt what I've been saying for pages almost EXACTLY what you've written above :huh: :huh: :huh:

Crisco

03-17-2009, 10:05 PM

:blink: do you have a reading problem?

arent I the only one who aggrees with what you said above?

Only try the guy for Murder if Mask WASNT racing...:huh:

isnt what I've been saying for pages almost EXACTLY what you've written above :huh: :huh: :huh:

Sorry read it wrong I suppose.

Tyburn

03-17-2009, 10:08 PM

Sorry read it wrong I suppose.
:laugh: but...you will find that, other then me...almost everyone else would dissagree with you.

thats what I cant understand either. :laugh:

Bonnie

03-17-2009, 11:06 PM

:laugh: but...you will find that, other then me...almost everyone else would dissagree with you.

thats what I cant understand either. :laugh:

My sister agrees with you. :laugh:

If both were racing, both played a part in what happened and both should be punished according to the law. Mask died, the other fellow left the scene (making more charges against himself).

Now, if Mask just happened to be speeding (and yes, he shouldn't have been) and this other fellow came alongside him trying to race him and hit Mask's car causing this accident, then the guy should be charged in Mask's death.

From what I've read so far, it seems from the charges that it happened like the 2nd scenario above. Plus he was DUI and had two priors for DUI. :punch:

Tyburn

03-18-2009, 12:49 AM

My sister agrees with you. :laugh:

If both were racing, both played a part in what happened and both should be punished according to the law. Mask died, the other fellow left the scene (making more charges against himself).

Now, if Mask just happened to be speeding (and yes, he shouldn't have been) and this other fellow came alongside him trying to race him and hit Mask's car causing this accident, then the guy should be charged in Mask's death.

From what I've read so far, it seems from the charges that it happened like the 2nd scenario above. Plus he was DUI and had two priors for DUI. :punch:
I aggree...its looking more and more like Mask WAS NOT racing, but if anything was being chased. :unsure-1:

lc87

03-20-2009, 03:41 PM

Miscarriage is a tragic thing for anyone to go thru but there was something wrong with the pregnancy prior to the wreck Rampage caused. From the way the medical info came out it sounds like the baby wasn't viable from the beginning.

Congrats on the little one coming!!! I work for a perinatologist and I see high risk pregnancies every day. Each one that turns out a baby is a miracle in my eyes.

~Amy

Well she's here now. She was 7.08 pounds and 19.5 inches long.

Miss Foxy

03-20-2009, 03:47 PM

Your opinions on this subject are completely nuts.

It's called personal responsibility. Mask knew what he was doing Dave. He killed himself by his actions. The other guy should lose his license and get a speeding ticket. Unless he knocked Mask off the road it had nothing to do with him.

Everyone in this country is so keen on passing the buck to the next guy I guess it's prevelant in Europe too. Oh mask crashed when racing lets try the other guy for murder.

Thats retarded. I agree..

Chuck

03-20-2009, 04:20 PM

Well she's here now. She was 7.08 pounds and 19.5 inches long.

Congrats!!!!!!!

Neezar

03-20-2009, 06:02 PM

Your opinions on this subject are completely nuts.

It's called personal responsibility. Mask knew what he was doing Dave. He killed himself by his actions. The other guy should lose his license and get a speeding ticket. Unless he knocked Mask off the road it had nothing to do with him.

Everyone in this country is so keen on passing the buck to the next guy I guess it's prevelant in Europe too. Oh mask crashed when racing lets try the other guy for murder.

Thats retarded.

The other guy DID knock him off the road. :rolleyes:

And poor guy, a cop just happened to witness it.

Crisco

03-20-2009, 06:03 PM

The other guy DID knock him off the road. :rolleyes:

And poor guy, a cop just happened to witness it.

In that case I agree with prosecuting him for involuntary vehicular man slaughter.

Neezar

03-20-2009, 06:04 PM

The Orange County District Attorney on Friday morning filed charges against Jeffrey David Kirby in relation to the car accident that killed Charles "Mask" Lewis, the founder of popular mixed martial arts clothing company Tapout.

A statement from the Orange County DA's office stated that Kirby is a second-time drunken driver and accused of killing Lewis and injuring his girlfriend, Lacy Lynn White, when Kirby crashed his Porsche into Lewis' Ferrari, causing it to slam into a light pole. The Ferrari split in half upon impacting the pole.

:Whistle:
Oh makes sense. Wow, ok then I revoke my vote I did'nt take the time to read the entire article..:ashamed:

Tyburn

03-20-2009, 07:25 PM

Well she's here now. She was 7.08 pounds and 19.5 inches long.
:w00t: lets see the pictures! :) I love little babies...I cant believe that I was that small once :laugh:

lc87

03-20-2009, 09:12 PM

:w00t: lets see the pictures! :) I love little babies...I cant believe that I was that small once :laugh:

She's in my av pic. Best I could do from my phone.

Crisco

03-20-2009, 10:17 PM

She's in my av pic. Best I could do from my phone.

Why is that midget dressed like a baby??

Tyburn

03-20-2009, 10:21 PM

She's in my av pic. Best I could do from my phone.
blessssssssssssssssss :w00t:

Chuck

03-20-2009, 11:19 PM

Why is that midget dressed like a baby??
:unsure-1:

That's his new baby girl...... and she's beautiful... :)

MattHughesRocks

03-20-2009, 11:35 PM

And shame on you new Daddy for not giving her her own thread! :w00t:

lc87

03-20-2009, 11:51 PM

And shame on you new Daddy for not giving her her own thread! :w00t:

I've had bad luck with babies and staring threads

TexasRN

03-21-2009, 12:49 AM

Well she's here now. She was 7.08 pounds and 19.5 inches long.

Congratulations!!! She is beautiful! It's awesome to see that new life make her way into the world and wonder what she will be like as she grows up. She has unlimited potential and parents who love her. There's nothing greater than that in this whole world.