re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 10:23 am to Mike da Tigah)

quote:True, and neither freeing the slaves nor invading to prevent a democratic secession is a constitutional issue to warrant invasion.

Actually...it is. The secession of the South directly threatened the long-term stability of the United States. If the South could so secede, then why not New York, Pennsylvania, or New Jersey? Why not California? Their sympathies throughout this era were very ambiguous and, had the South been allowed to go without a fight, they more than likely would have seceded and formed a country of their own. Where would it have ended? Allowing the South to secede from the Union would have established a dangerous precedent. For one, it would have completely destroyed democracy as a viable form of government. Why would the nations of Europe switch to democracy like they did when, if a section of the country didn't agree with a certain policy, they could just get up and leave without a moment's notice?

The map of North America could have very well looked like the map of Europe with varying forms of government instead of just one nation, stretched out from the Atlantic to the Pacific Ocean. That is why I am not a "true" libertarian because "true" libertarians tend to think everything is a black or white issue, with no middle ground in between. You don't think of the consequences of your actions at all.

re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 10:25 am to TenTex)

So...it skips his essential conquest of the State of Maryland, his completely ignoring the Constitution, his theft of a large section of the State of Va., etc.?

Because, you see, if the South could never legally secede, then all of the laws passed during the War were (and are) illegal. Similarly, the extortion to ratify the 13-15 Amendments is similarly illegtimate.

re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 10:25 am to RollTide1987)

quote:Actually...it is. The secession of the South directly threatened the long-term stability of the United States. If the South could so secede, then why not New York, Pennsylvania, or New Jersey? Why not California? Their sympathies throughout this era were very ambiguous and, had the South been allowed to go without a fight, they more than likely would have seceded and formed a country of their own. Where would it have ended? Allowing the South to secede from the Union would have established a dangerous precedent. For one, it would have completely destroyed democracy as a viable form of government. Why would the nations of Europe switch to democracy like they did when, if a section of the country didn't agree with a certain policy, they could just get up and leave without a moment's notice?

The map of North America could have very well looked like the map of Europe with varying forms of government instead of just one nation, stretched out from the Atlantic to the Pacific Ocean. That is why I am not a "true" libertarian because "true" libertarians tend to think everything is a black or white issue, with no middle ground in between. You don't think of the consequences of your actions at all.

Not the reasoning behind it, but the constitutional (law) justification for it.

re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 10:45 am to RollTide1987)

quote:'s amazing the amount of neo-Confederates there are on this board. You have convinced yourselves that the South was by no means in the wrong and that Lincoln was the tyrant. You have convinced yourselves that slavery had absolutely nothing to do with the war and everything to do with tariffs. You have convinced yourselves that Lincoln was a tyrant who shredded the Constitution without being willing to see why he did what he did because you think the war he waged against the South was illegal and tyrannical anyway.

Not only have most here not come to terms with the Civil War & a Republican like Lincoln, they haven't come to terms with the Southern Strategy.

Because of this hate for Republicans(Lincoln) who destroyed the "Southern Way of Life" it was not until 1964(Civil Rights Act) that the South miraculously became a GOP stronghold.

100 years of hate for Lincoln & the GOP ended(nearly overnight) with Northern Democrats passage of the Civil Rights Act & Barry Goldwater's opposition to it.

They haven't come to terms with the legacy of Lincoln nor the Southern Strategy that wrested away Southern Whites from the Democratic Party.

re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 10:49 am to udtiger)

quote:So...it skips his essential conquest of the State of Maryland, his completely ignoring the Constitution, his theft of a large section of the State of Va., etc.?

Once again...you show your ignorance on the issue. Had Lincoln allowed Maryland to join the Confederacy, Washington D.C. would have been hundreds of miles INSIDE enemy territory. Can you honestly give me a rational explanation as to why Lincoln should have allowed this to happen. Also...I wouldn't call West Virginia "theft" as it was West Virginia that SECEDED from Virginia.

quote:Because, you see, if the South could never legally secede, then all of the laws passed during the War were (and are) illegal.

The victor makes the rules and the North won the war. I highly doubt you would get a Supreme Court of the United States, in this day and age, to rule the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments to be unconstitutional. If you think this needs to happen then it just shows your true colors in this debate.

re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 11:07 am to AlaTiger)

quote:I am pretty sure that the South started the War by firing on Fort Sumter. Secession had happened and Lincoln did not send troops to the South right away. Of course, War was inevitable at that point. But, the South started it - not Lincoln.

True, expect you conveniently left out the part where the North said they would evacuate the fort by a certain date and that date passed before the South fired on it.

re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 11:10 am to mmcgrath)

quote:The dude was against slavery, even in the Lincoln Douglas debates in 1858.

You didn't really expect him to grant suffrage, integrate schools, and end discrimination in 1866 did you? Maybe affirmative action in 1867? Appoint some black judges in 1868? The guy was ahead of his time but come on.... Maybe you would like to criticize Henry Ford for not inventing a traction control system for the Model T?

Yep totally against slavery:

quote: My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery.

re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 11:14 am to TenTex)

quote:This movie will school you on what lengths a political party will go to win enough votes to pass new legislation when all odds are against its passage.

Don't need liberal movie makers to spin this for me. We already have first hand knowledge via Obamacare.

And quite honestly the Civil War was the War of Northern Aggression. If Lincoln have truly cared about the future of the U.S. he would have allowed the South to peacefully separate from the union. As evidenced by the most recent Presidential election our nation is still pretty much divided along the same lines.

re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 11:17 am to carbola)

quote:True, expect you conveniently left out the part where the North said they would evacuate the fort by a certain date and that date passed before the South fired on it.

The North set no such date. Lincoln always intended to use Fort Sumter to ignite a conflict. You can say what you want about that but Lincoln needed a war to bring the South back into the Union. He informed the governor of South Carolina of his intentions to resupply the fort and this is what led to the bombardment.

re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 11:19 am to SoulGlo)

quote:What was the North fighting for before the emancipation and Gettysburg?

What the North was fighting for is inconsequential. But to answer your question, the North was fighting to bring the South back into the Union. Most Union soldiers would have probably punched yoiu in the face if you told them that they were fighting to free slaves.

The South, however, was fighting to keep their slaves and protect their way of life.

re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 11:23 am to RollTide1987)

quote:The North set no such date. Lincoln always intended to use Fort Sumter to ignite a conflict. You can say what you want about that but Lincoln needed a war to bring the South back into the Union. He informed the governor of South Carolina of his intentions to resupply the fort and this is what led to the bombardment.

re: Go see Lincoln the Movie and get Grounded (Posted on 11/20/12 at 11:24 am to sugar71)

quote:sugar71

You are correct in your assertions, sir. Lincoln wanted a peaceful Reconstruction and wanted to show mercy to the Confederates whereas radicals like Thaddeus Stevens in the House and Benjamin Wade of the Senate wanted harsh punishment for the South, which included the execution of men like Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee for high treason.

It's a shame that Lincoln was assassinated because I believe had he lived Reconstruction would have gone a hell of a lot smoother and the South would have been better off for it.