The EO don't say "you can't be saved". A famous quote from St. Theophan the Recluse is: "You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins... I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever."

Now, I and some joint commisions don't think that the OO are heterodox. So if the heterodox can possibly be saved how much more so for the OO! Just my 2c though. I'm pretty infamous for my sympathy for the OO so you can take my sayings with a grain of salt.

As Cyrillic and Mabsoota's posts have shown, there is some difference of opinion or point of view in this matter. For instance, my priest, who is in no way an extremist, has stated in no uncertain terms that we will not under any circumstance be communing Chalcedonians in our church. At the same time, however, when the Copts first came to this area in the 1970s-80s, before there was a church for them, at least some of them used to commune at the local Greek Orthodox Church (with the Greek and Coptic bishops' full knowledge), as it was the only option in town. Now that we have our own church, the communion of Copts in the Greek church has stopped, because there's no need for it.

So I think the most realistic assessment is to say that our recognition of one another as sharing substantially the same faith is very much affected by local, pastoral circumstances, so it is not possible to generalize based on official statements. Those statements reflect the truth, of course (that we are not in communion), but the reality might be a little different, depending on where you go. This is why many people have pointed favorably to local agreements (such as in the thread on the agreement between EO and OO in Sweden to regular meetings), while at the same time being realistic in recognizing that these do not, in and of themselves, mean that we are reunited or consider each other the same church or anything like that.

Having been to EO churches before (actually long before I had ever been to an OO church; they can be very tough to find, and my home area does not have any, so the local OO go to EO churches...again, pastoral circumstances are so important in how we relate to each other), I can say that personally I see them as being much closer to us than any other communion. Probably if we had a visitor from one of their churches and they didn't say anything, most people wouldn't know based on their practice that they are EO (though of course abouna would not commune them without knowing who they are, and they would presumably know better than to try to be communed anyway). Little variations, like the difference in the sign of the cross, could be noticed, but you'd really have to be looking for them, and honestly nobody is watching a visitor and judging them like that, thank God. We even have Catholics who come to our liturgies regularly, and they're like family except that they cannot be communed. So on an official level we are still apart, but on an 'unofficial' level, we love everybody and wish that all would be saved, just as we want to be. How could we think otherwise and still pray as we do at the conclusion of every hour? "Have mercy on us, O God, and have mercy on us, who, at all times and in every hour, in heaven and on earth, is worshipped and glorified, Christ our God, the good, the long suffering, the abundant in mercy, and the great in compassion, who loves the righteous and has mercy on the sinners of whom I am chief; who does not wish the death of the sinner but rather that he returns and lives, who calls all to salvation for the promise of the blessings to come..."

I still don't understand why OO and EO would split-up and separate with each other until today even they believe the same faith.

It's horribly complicated. Some believe we share the same faith, but others do not.

Even if we were to come to unanimous agreement that we share the same faith, there are so many historical hurdles to overcome (anathemas, councils, etc.) that we can't just say "we agree the same thing! let's commune!" - although I suppose we could very well do that, most people would rather hash everything out first.

Do EO Christian think thant it is better for Catholic or Protestant Christians to convert to EO rather than OO?Do EO Christians think that the Catholic and Protestant Christian better not to convert to OO?

Do EO Christian think thant it is better for Catholic or Protestant Christians to convert to EO rather than OO?Do EO Christians think that the Catholic and Protestant Christian better not to convert to OO?

Do EO Christian think thant it is better for Catholic or Protestant Christians to convert to EO rather than OO?Do EO Christians think that the Catholic and Protestant Christian better not to convert to OO?

There are not much converts from EO to OO and vice versa. And what would "stop" mean?

Stop His convertion from EO to OO, ask him to keep his faith on EO, or vice verse.

There are several good reasons to not become OO, but I think we should be respectful about their decision even if we think they are making a mistake.

Logged

"as [you've] informed us that respect chills love, it is natural to conclude that all your pretty flights arise from your pampered sensibility; and that, vain of this fancied preeminence of organs, you foster every emotion till the fumes, mounting to your brain, dispel the sober suggestions of reason. It is not in this view surprising that when you should argue you become impassioned, and that reflection inflames your imagination instead of enlightening your understanding." - Mary Wollstonecraft

There are not much converts from EO to OO and vice versa. And what would "stop" mean?

Stop His convertion from EO to OO, ask him to keep his faith on EO, or vice verse.

There are several good reasons to not become OO

Yes, Coptic chant is very hard on the ears and I don't like cymbals at all so that's how I decided on the EO-OO issue. One advice I give you Walter, don't dig too deep into this whole Chalcedon-issue (stop while you still can!). It will drive anyone mad.

There are not much converts from EO to OO and vice versa. And what would "stop" mean?

Stop His convertion from EO to OO, ask him to keep his faith on EO, or vice verse.

There are several good reasons to not become OO

Yes, Coptic chant is very hard on the ears and I don't like cymbals at all so that's how I decided on the EO-OO issue. One advice I give you Walter, don't dig too deep into this whole Chalcedon-issue (stop while you still can!). It will drive anyone mad.

What about OO churches other than Coptic?btw the use of cymbals is an innovation of the Middle Ages, and it is technically not correct to use musical instruments in any Orthodox liturgy

Well, I said that half-jokingly, meaning that there is little to no differences between the EO and the OO faith and here in the Netherlands the EO and the OO parishes are all ethnic anyway. But no, there's no other OO church in the area, but the Coptic church is a little bit closer than the nearest EO one. It's a beautiful parish.

Are you trying to make me doubt between OO and EO again? If that's your intention it worked.

I am Protestant now. If I convert to OO one day, but not EO . What do EO Christians think of me?

They will smother you in your sleep with a copy of the Tome.

^^ Posts like this one are why I as an OO do not think badly of EO (or future EO). They're too funny, even when they are making the wrong decision.

But Qawe is right...cymbals are not technically needed for liturgy, and weren't originally there (see Clement of Alexandria on instruments in the liturgy), and many liturgies I've been to don't use them at all. Some people are too in love with them to admit that they aren't actually needed. I don't mind when they are used very sparingly (as in my parish), since it's better than having everything fall apart when/if our deacons lose the rhythm of the chant, but sometimes when I watch the Nativity liturgy from the Cathedral on Youtube (for instance), I have to turn it down when the cymbal comes up because they're a little too free and excited with it...I guess it doesn't help I can't stand Ibrahim Ayad's voice, and he heads the chorus...I should probably just stop watching it. It's not like there aren't alternatives...

I am Protestant now. If I convert to OO one day, but not EO . What do EO Christians think of me?

They will smother you in your sleep with a copy of the Tome.

^^ Posts like this one are why I as an OO do not think badly of EO (or future EO). They're too funny, even when they are making the wrong decision.

But Qawe is right...cymbals are not technically needed for liturgy, and weren't originally there (see Clement of Alexandria on instruments in the liturgy), and many liturgies I've been to don't use them at all. Some people are too in love with them to admit that they aren't actually needed. I don't mind when they are used very sparingly (as in my parish), since it's better than having everything fall apart when/if our deacons lose the rhythm of the chant, but sometimes when I watch the Nativity liturgy from the Cathedral on Youtube (for instance), I have to turn it down when the cymbal comes up because they're a little too free and excited with it...I guess it doesn't help I can't stand Ibrahim Ayad's voice, and he heads the chorus...I should probably just stop watching it. It's not like there aren't alternatives...

Do EO Christian think thant it is better for Catholic or Protestant Christians to convert to EO rather than OO?Do EO Christians think that the Catholic and Protestant Christian better not to convert to OO?

Do EO Christian think thant it is better for Catholic or Protestant Christians to convert to EO rather than OO?Do EO Christians think that the Catholic and Protestant Christian better not to convert to OO?

Do EO Christian think thant it is better for Catholic or Protestant Christians to convert to EO rather than OO?Do EO Christians think that the Catholic and Protestant Christian better not to convert to OO?

I find the kumbaya attitude taken by most in this thread to be really flawed. But who cares?

Logged

"as [you've] informed us that respect chills love, it is natural to conclude that all your pretty flights arise from your pampered sensibility; and that, vain of this fancied preeminence of organs, you foster every emotion till the fumes, mounting to your brain, dispel the sober suggestions of reason. It is not in this view surprising that when you should argue you become impassioned, and that reflection inflames your imagination instead of enlightening your understanding." - Mary Wollstonecraft