Im not saying your wrong but it would be hard to get any real numbers on the NHL. Its a privately held company.

Try to find audited numbers. Basically they can say whatever they want.

However if you do decide to look for actual numbers you will find that the integrity of the NHL's numbers have been challenged more than once. Including forbes publicly refuting their numbers on at least one occasion.

The Pens remark was in regards to the Miss. Hockey over there. You know the leagues poster girl. Not so much about the Pens as a team. However if you dont think the NHL wants their poster boy to rip off 3 or 4 Cups in a row, well your sadly mistaken. Look how much Gretz helped the league out for years, even after he left Edmonton. Including really opening up the California market when he went to LA.

Do I doubt the league wants to market Crosby like they did Gretzky.....no, not at all, but do I think they would try and alter the outcome of games (specifically games against the Wings as most here believe) to do it.....no I don't. Let me guess.....all those years ago, the NHL sent in some undercover agents that told Probert and the boys "cmon over to this little bar, its called Goose Loonies, we'll buy you boys a round or two" just so they could ensure another Cup for Gretzky and company?

I'm constantly disgusted with how some Wings fans will create conspiracy theories that the officials are out to get us.....when in reality, we just aren't talented enough to advance. They remind me of U of M fans that think Michigan never loses....they just run out of time, or get screwed by the officials.

Do I doubt the league wants to market Crosby like they did Gretzky.....no, not at all, but do I think they would try and alter the outcome of games (specifically games against the Wings as most here believe) to do it.....no I don't. Let me guess.....all those years ago, the NHL sent in some undercover agents that told Probert and the boys "cmon over to this little bar, its called Goose Loonies, we'll buy you boys a round or two" just so they could ensure another Cup for Gretzky and company?

I'm constantly disgusted with how some Wings fans will create conspiracy theories that the officials are out to get us.....when in reality, we just aren't talented enough to advance. They remind me of U of M fans that think Michigan never loses....they just run out of time, or get screwed by the officials.

it is not only Red Wings. And it is not a blind bias towards a certain team. NHL simple wants any series to go to 7 games. However, hockey does not work this way as one team is often better than another.

Sweet. This dude was brought here for one reason, to punch people in the head - every other thing that he can do, other Wings can do better. I like that we have a head-puncher. The league has other, better head-punchers, but this one is ours. Better than nothing. Good work, Kenny!

They made an example out of a cheap shotting head hunting piece of garbage who is the very definition of repeat offender. Now guys on opposing teams don't have to worry about the 1 guy on the Yotes that tries to decapitate every person he hits when he leaves his feet whilst in kill mode. I've never liked Torres and am glad the league made an example out of him.

it is not only Red Wings. And it is not a blind bias towards a certain team. NHL simple wants any series to go to 7 games. However, hockey does not work this way as one team is often better than another.

I realize its not just Wings fans....I'm sure Leafs fans and others are just as bad.....but I live here, have all my life.....and listening to talk radio and reading the boards after a loss....there is never a time when the officials AREN'T called into question at some point. Its comical. Its very rare when you hear a rational fan say "we just got beat by a better team"

I realize its not just Wings fans....I'm sure Leafs fans and others are just as bad.....but I live here, have all my life.....and listening to talk radio and reading the boards after a loss....there is never a time when the officials AREN'T called into question at some point. Its comical. Its very rare when you hear a rational fan say "we just got beat by a better team"

I guess I'm spoiled because my friends and family are the first ones to admit when the Wings lost a game because they played like crap or missed opportunities. Will you ever hear any of us say 'We got beaten by a better team."? Not likely. Will you ever hear us say "We lost because they played like crap.", or even "We got out played tonight?" Absolutely, every time, though more often the former than the latter. Its part of having pride in the team you root for and staying positive about future games. You want to believe that your team is the best team, especially when they have a history of being among the best, and when they lose it's because they didn't play up to par that game. I don't know, I'm just kind of struggling with your wording. I don't think taking a loss of a team that you grew up with and want to be/are proud of, and turning it into 'the other team is a better team' is a rational thing to do at all. I think being able to see clearly when the team you root for didn't play well in a game is rational, and I think that in itself is enough. On that note we're also the ones yelling the loudest when missed/blown call hinders us, haha.

I guess I'm spoiled because my friends and family are the first ones to admit when the Wings lost a game because they played like crap or missed opportunities. Will you ever hear any of us say 'We got beaten by a better team."? Not likely. Will you ever hear us say "We lost because they played like crap.", or even "We got out played tonight?" Absolutely, every time, though more often the former than the latter. Its part of having pride in the team you root for and staying positive about future games. You want to believe that your team is the best team, especially when they have a history of being among the best, and when they lose it's because they didn't play up to par that game. I don't know, I'm just kind of struggling with your wording. I don't think taking a loss of a team that you grew up with and want to be/are proud of, and turning it into 'the other team is a better team' is a rational thing to do at all. I think being able to see clearly when the team you root for didn't play well in a game is rational, and I think that in itself is enough. On that note we're also the ones yelling the loudest when missed/blown call hinders us, haha.

Also, I don't listen to talk radio at all, so I can't speak for that.

I'm all for being a fan......and trust me, I've been watching Red Wing hockey for more years than I care to admit......but there is pride and then false pride. Sometimes the rose colored glasses cloud the judgement. Just because you love your team, it doesn't make you a better, more educated fan. All the cheering and rooting in the world couldn't help them beat Nashville.....they lost to a better team.....they didn't get screwed by the officials, they didn't lose because they didn't play to their potential.....THEY LOST TO A BETTER TEAM.

Try and say it a few times......its soothing. The truth shall set you free.

I'm all for being a fan......and trust me, I've been watching Red Wing hockey for more years than I care to admit......but there is pride and then false pride. Sometimes the rose colored glasses cloud the judgement. Just because you love your team, it doesn't make you a better, more educated fan. All the cheering and rooting in the world couldn't help them beat Nashville.....they lost to a better team.....they didn't get screwed by the officials, they didn't lose because they didn't play to their potential.....THEY LOST TO A BETTER TEAM.

Try and say it a few times......its soothing. The truth shall set you free.

I never once claimed to be a better or a more educated fan one than anyone. All I said is that I considered myself lucky to be among a crowd that I find to be rational and not blind homers. You're the one who actually seems to be talking down to me as if your way of thinking is the only right one. The NHL is a league that as a fan base, all of us are watching and none of us are playing. We're allowed to have different outlooks on and opinions of what we see, just as on anything else in life.

And yes, this year, we did lose to a better team. Logically the playoffs and then the cup are the indicator of who is the best team each year. This year Nashville advanced and we didn't, so in that regard we did lose to a better team. Ii never said we didn't. I didn't take your post to to only regard this year's first round of the playoffs, I meant on a game-by-game basis throughout the seasons and staying positive. So, Nashville would be the better team in that regard.

All that being said, I'm with the OP more than anything. The NHL has been making itself un-watchable over the last few years. I think Wings fans get the so-called "bad name" that you mention because we have enough bulls*** calls to rant about from watching our own games. That, and not everyone cares enough or has the time to follow every team's every game to look for other examples. I certainly don't. Anyone with any rationality can see that this is a league-wide issue, though, just by keeping up with this board and watching headlines and replays of other teams. We reflect on OUR team on OUR boards. If you cant let the little homer deep down inside come out on your own team's board with that team's fans, where can you do it?

For the last few years when we got eliminated from the playoffs, I've described it as 'almost relieved because watching this bull crap is hard to do'. Do I like seeing the Wings lose or be eliminated? Of course not, but watching this circus has become somewhat laborious. I will always love the Wings as I have for the last 22 years, since I could grasp the concept of hockey as a child. I could see the BS back in 08 as well, as we lead up to that win and it's been all downhill from there, for me anyway. I, too, miss the old NHL hockey that I grew up watching. Someone put it nicely in another thread: It's no longer an obsession, it's a hobby.

Do the refs miss calls on us? Absolutely. Do the refs sometimes benefit us and hinder another team? Absolutely. Those calls also go onto the pile of blown/missed/stupid calls that are a blatant issue in the entire league. Do those calls stand out in my mind as much? Absolutely not, and of course not. Outrageous crap like the too many men a few years ago, Clowe playing from the bench with no repercussions, Malkin getting a pass on what the rules said was an insta-suspension, Thornton taking a sniper's bullet because he was brushed by a stick during the Olympic diving competition that was round 2, Weber bashing Z's head and getting a $2500 fine and 25 games for Torres, fining Tortorella and Quennville for stating the obvious, are just a few that come to mind. These kinds of things stand out from the bunch the most because they are utterly absurd.

It's not just blown/missed/made up calls, it's about how the league handles them as well.

I never once claimed to be a better or a more educated fan one than anyone. All I said is that I considered myself lucky to be among a crowd that I find to be rational and not blind homers. You're the one who actually seems to be talking down to me as if your way of thinking is the only right one. The NHL is a league that as a fan base, all of us are watching and none of us are playing. We're allowed to have different outlooks on and opinions of what we see, just as on anything else in life.

And yes, this year, we did lose to a better team. Logically the playoffs and then the cup are the indicator of who is the best team each year. This year Nashville advanced and we didn't, so in that regard we did lose to a better team. Ii never said we didn't. I didn't take your post to to only regard this year's first round of the playoffs, I meant on a game-by-game basis throughout the seasons and staying positive. So, Nashville would be the better team in that regard.

All that being said, I'm with the OP more than anything. The NHL has been making itself un-watchable over the last few years. I think Wings fans get the so-called "bad name" that you mention because we have enough bulls*** calls to rant about from watching our own games. That, and not everyone cares enough or has the time to follow every team's every game to look for other examples. I certainly don't. Anyone with any rationality can see that this is a league-wide issue, though, just by keeping up with this board and watching headlines and replays of other teams. We reflect on OUR team on OUR boards. If you cant let the little homer deep down inside come out on your own team's board with that team's fans, where can you do it?

For the last few years when we got eliminated from the playoffs, I've described it as 'almost relieved because watching this bull crap is hard to do'. Do I like seeing the Wings lose or be eliminated? Of course not, but watching this circus has become somewhat laborious. I will always love the Wings as I have for the last 22 years, since I could grasp the concept of hockey as a child. I could see the BS back in 08 as well, as we lead up to that win and it's been all downhill from there, for me anyway. I, too, miss the old NHL hockey that I grew up watching. Someone put it nicely in another thread: It's no longer an obsession, it's a hobby.

Do the refs miss calls on us? Absolutely. Do the refs sometimes benefit us and hinder another team? Absolutely. Those calls also go onto the pile of blown/missed/stupid calls that are a blatant issue in the entire league. Do those calls stand out in my mind as much? Absolutely not, and of course not. Outrageous crap like the too many men a few years ago, Clowe playing from the bench with no repercussions, Malkin getting a pass on what the rules said was an insta-suspension, Thornton taking a sniper's bullet because he was brushed by a stick during the Olympic diving competition that was round 2, Weber bashing Z's head and getting a $2500 fine and 25 games for Torres, fining Tortorella and Quennville for stating the obvious, are just a few that come to mind. These kinds of things stand out from the bunch the most because they are utterly absurd.

It's not just blown/missed/made up calls, it's about how the league handles them as well.

Not talking down to you at all......not sure where you would have gotten that......but hey, its cool.

And if this is a place where anyone can let out their inner homer, then I'm free to slap that inner homer with a healthy dose of reality. Just because I don't choose to see the Wings as an organization on the rise....or being one piece away from being Cup contenders again, doesn't make me less of a fan.......I guess I can just look at things objectionably.

I've been thinking since the 2009 final the League is fixed by Bettman. Bettman's only interested in saving his bankrupt markets and doing away with dynasties so his horrible CBA looks good.

Every year since our last Cup there's something questionable going on. 2009 Malkin wasn't suspended for starting a fight with less than 2 minutes, 2010 the Sharks weren't called for diving, 2011 Bettman tried to do away with our Octopus tradition by not allowing Al swing them over his head, now 2012 Weber wasn't suspended.

With the Wings and Pens eliminated, and the Canucks, Bruins, Black Hawks, and Rangers on the brink, I'm hoping the TV ratings for the next 3 rounds of the playoffs are horrible. I have a feeling with the NBC Sports Network now showing games, they'll tell Bettman to smarten up and have his best teams advance, or else they won't show games anymore. NBC isn't interested in saving Phoenix or Nashville from bankruptcy, they want Detroit, Chicago, New York, Boston, Pittsburgh, etc. deep in the playoffs so they can make money selling ad space.

Do I doubt the league wants to market Crosby like they did Gretzky.....no, not at all, but do I think they would try and alter the outcome of games (specifically games against the Wings as most here believe) to do it.....no I don't. Let me guess.....all those years ago, the NHL sent in some undercover agents that told Probert and the boys "cmon over to this little bar, its called Goose Loonies, we'll buy you boys a round or two" just so they could ensure another Cup for Gretzky and company?

I'm constantly disgusted with how some Wings fans will create conspiracy theories that the officials are out to get us.....when in reality, we just aren't talented enough to advance. They remind me of U of M fans that think Michigan never loses....they just run out of time, or get screwed by the officials.

Was it worse then running out onto the ice and blatantly attacking some guy not willing to fight?

How about a crosscheck to the throat?

Shanny is a retard. He has no idea what he is doing and made the league look worse than ever.

I have no respect for him or the NHL anymore. Again I think there will be a lockout and will never recover. It still hasnt from the last one, this one I hope will be the end.

Let the profitable teams form a league of their own, then Bettman and the bankrupt pens can run a league of schmuck teams. The pens can win every year.

You're dead wrong, Shanahan knows exactly what he is doing. Kissing ass where it will do him the most good. He has lost any respect I had for him. The officiating has gotten so bad that for the past 2 seasons I have not signed up for NHL Center Ice because I can't stand watching the abortion that goes on with these assholes that call themselves officials. The playoffs are twice as bad as the regular season.

While I strongly disagree with your assessment of the Torres hit (it was dirty, plus Torres has established himself as a head hunter), it doesn't take balls to suspend a bottom 6 forward for 25 games. You are right about that. Shanahan and whoever is telling him what to do are cowards. It takes balls to suspend a guy like Shea Weber for a direct act of violence, and act that in no way can be confused as 'a hockey play'.

When you lose, say little. When you win, say less. --Thanks for the Sig. Offsides--

My complaint on officiating is the APPLICATION of the rules. For instance, if one player slashes another and no call is made, the player that was slashed gives a return slash, the call is made because of the retaliation. Why is the exact same act not enforced equally? Also, when you are a fan of a team, your focus on the game is on watching your team more than the other. That is why you see more possible calls missed on your team than the other. Game the other night. I guarantee not one Nashville fan complained about Legwand covering (picking up) the puck in the crease while every Wing fan thought there should have been a call.

I've grown up with this game, I love it. But I've never in my life thought the NHL was so utterly pathetic, cheap, and blatently crooked and biased in my lifetime.

After seeing that Torres got 25 games for that hit, I've seen enough. I understand the game of hockey and have watched and played long enough to know that hit differed from a Kronwall hit by about an extra second. Seriously, watch it again. I have no idea what all this fuss is about. Once again though, its a bottom 6 guy, so the NHL can make a statement. They can make up for not suspending clear intent to injure the head, from behind, of another on a non-hockey play by giving out an assininely overboard suspension to a bottom six guy on what essentially was a late hit. A late hit to the front of a player (head up Hossa!). The clear bias towards star players is sickening. Some of Kronwall's hits have been similar to that hit and nothing happens. The funny part is we knew already that Weber would get a slap on the wrist and it happened just like we said. "Well that's just the way it is" is not good enough, this is embarrassing for hockey. The NHL's attempt at any serious regard for players health and safety is marred by the fact that when the rubber meets the road and they have to make a tough decision, they drop the ball. Any rule they make has some kind of loophole for star players and then they act like they can throw the book at Brendan Smith, Raffi Torres, etc.ENow i start to watch closely at what happens when its a player from a team that Bettman really needs to succeed, in his small market experiments (Nashville). The fact that the NHL owns the Pheonix Coyotes is one of the biggest conflicts of interest I've ever seen and should call into question almost everything that happens in a playoffs series with them involved. Bettman has went to near every length he can to keep them there (while letting ATL go without so much as a breath of remorse) and I would not be surprised in the slightest to learn of any involvement between him and anyone that has any way to even quietly influence a series in their favor. There's hundreds of millions of dollars at stake and we all know Bettman is all about money. I'm happy for the Coyotes and I haven't got to watch any of that series but I legitimately wonder if its being called toward Pheonix's favor. I was glad to see the Penguins getting stomped but I started wondering if the officiating was goingto turn toward Pittsburgh because I know that series is getting a ton of tv viewers and makeing the league a ton of money. Call it conspiracy but in the last four years the NHL has shown its true colors and bias and it seems to follow the money to me. Our series with the Pens, the first SJ series in the 2nd round (the most epically crooked thing I've ever watched in hockey), and now the clear confusion/bias in dealing with suspensions has shown how much of a crooked league we have. I miss the old NHL.

I know this is all over the place right now, maybe ill finish and expound on my thoughts when I can (at work now).

Kronwall has learned over time. Early on he left his feet before contact, now it's after contact is made on the follow through. If he kept his feet on the ice, he would generate even more leverage making his hits even worse. However, I think he does it to lessen the impact. Not on the guy he's hitting, but rather on himself. Notice he made the year this year without injury? I believe this is the first year. Perhaps his elevating after contact has something to do with it.

I agree with the league sucking ass. Hell, I cancelled Center Ice last fall for the simple fact the NHL sucks. Parity = s*** hockey. Salary cap allows mediocre teams from non-hockey markets to compete. I would much prefer fewer teams with higher talent levels in markets that can sustain a capless team at a high level. The reffing and discipline are a farce. The favoritism and outcome based officiating is blatant and nauseating. I'm done. Won't waste another dime. Won't attend a game unless its a freebie.
I can get along just fine going to Air Force and Colorado College games for my hockey fix, and radio via internet if I want to check out the wings.

I will say though that I would have been happy to see that rotten sonofabitch Torres get a lifetime suspension. 25 ain't enough for that rotten MF'er.