Lumping Suh/McCoy with Dorsey/Ellis to try to downplay their stock is laughable. And even more so when you lump Suh with Dorsey. Dorsey's stock was at an all time high after his junior season. He went back for a senior season, and couldn't handle the target on his back. His play dropped off. Questions arose about his body type, being more marshmallowy than one would like for an elite under tackle. Suh saw the same crossroads as the top DT returning for his senior season. Did he melt under the pressure like Dorsey? Nope. In fact he rose the freaking bar, and nearly matched McCoy's entire career in one season in the process. Suh is a bona fide once in a lifetime prospect.

Settling sounds like your strategy. And that's a terrible one. You can try to downplay Suh's accomplishments, accolades, skillset to bring Suh down to Okung's level for your agenda to draft a LT, but it doesn't hold any water. If anything, Okung is closer to the 3-4 next Tackles on the board. It'd be easier to position themselves by trading up for one than trade down for Okung, and certainly more prudent than passing on Suh or McCoy to get a Tackle who is no greater than several other tackles available.

Positional value is moot this year as well. Being an uncapped year, it's almost a foregone conclusion that whomever gets signed will have a front loaded contract that doesn't cripple whatever future cap is in place. It benefits all parties. The agent and the player get all that guaranteed money early, and the teams get to save future cap space. You might have a point if there were a cap and a CBA in place but there isn't. So like I said, the point is moot.

Lumping Suh/McCoy with Dorsey/Ellis to try to downplay their stock is laughable. And even more so when you lump Suh with Dorsey. Dorsey's stock was at an all time high after his junior season. He went back for a senior season, and couldn't handle the target on his back. His play dropped off. Questions arose about his body type, being more marshmallowy than one would like for an elite under tackle. Suh saw the same crossroads as the top DT returning for his senior season. Did he melt under the pressure like Dorsey? Nope. In fact he rose the freaking bar, and nearly matched McCoy's entire career in one season in the process. Suh is a bona fide once in a lifetime prospect.

Settling sounds like your strategy. And that's a terrible one. You can try to downplay Suh's accomplishments, accolades, skillset to bring Suh down to Okung's level for your agenda to draft a LT, but it doesn't hold any water. If anything, Okung is closer to the 3-4 next Tackles on the board. It'd be easier to position themselves by trading up for one than trade down for Okung, and certainly more prudent than passing on Suh or McCoy to get a Tackle who is no greater than several other tackles available.

Positional value is moot this year as well. Being an uncapped year, it's almost a foregone conclusion that whomever gets signed will have a front loaded contract that doesn't cripple whatever future cap is in place. It benefits all parties. The agent and the player get all that guaranteed money early, and the teams get to save future cap space. You might have a point if there were a cap and a CBA in place but there isn't. So like I said, the point is moot.

Well said.

And if ANYONE looks to Todd McShay as a source for information, they've got big problems.

Positional value is moot this year as well. Being an uncapped year, it's almost a foregone conclusion that whomever gets signed will have a front loaded contract that doesn't cripple whatever future cap is in place. It benefits all parties. The agent and the player get all that guaranteed money early, and the teams get to save future cap space. You might have a point if there were a cap and a CBA in place but there isn't. So like I said, the point is moot.

Actually, the rookie pool will remain in place despite the uncapped year. The NFL could have ended it 60 days prior to the draft, but they chose not to do so. Therefore, the 2nd overall pick should get approximately $3M this season. But, I wouldn't be surprised to see teams get creative with the NLTBE or "log" bonuses this year by having them count immediately instead of the following season. They could also increase the size of those bonuses in exchange for a smaller option or signing bonus, but there's one problem with that. If the player gets injured and doesn't play in 35% of the snaps, that full amount will be due in a later year.

_________________

April 12th, 2010, 11:19 am

casskid

Varsity Captain

Joined: March 7th, 2007, 2:59 pmPosts: 324

I think the problem alot of people have with Okung is that he seems to be a guy that comes out every year. Long and Thomas were seen as being far and away the best LTs in the draft, while there has been serious doubt around if Okung will be that top of the line talent. Sure he probably will end up being solid at the very least, but when a player has a season like Suh just had, its hard to pass up on that.

About the point you keep making in regards to how we have to pay a DT way to much money so it doesnt make a ton of sense to pay anyone else but a LT, i think LT and DT are basically the same in terms of how they affect the team. Both at the very least are designed to help other players make impacts rather then they themselves make a impact, but having one that is truly a monster is a huge advantage.

April 12th, 2010, 2:00 pm

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10398Location: Where ever I'm at now

Please just stop bringing up Suh's "questionable knees". He hasn't had a knee injury in THREE FREAKIN' YEARS. I'd say that means he passed the acid test when it comes to the strength of his knees. In regards to the agent he chose, the Lions have been down that road before with other players. One would have never thought that the Lions would have had a deal in place last season with Stafford before the draft. The Lions haven't had a holdout in quite some time.....I don't see this as an issue.

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10398Location: Where ever I'm at now

steensn wrote:

I just question suh's knees...

You're such a Richard......

April 12th, 2010, 8:07 pm

Leo

3rd Round Selection

Joined: January 11th, 2005, 11:35 pmPosts: 1157

Wow! What short memories some of us have!!

Glenn Dorsey was considered by most to be the top player in the 2008 draft not Jake Long. In fact I believe Jake Long was considered by most to be the 3rd or 4th best prospect behind Dorsey, Chris Long and Matt Ryan.

Dorsey as senior led his team to a National title and improved his stats across the board while being double and triple teamed. And won just about every trophy a defensive lineman could win. So where you getting he had regressed as a senior??

He was considered a sure thing to be one of the top 3 players drafted. What happened? On draft day he was pushed down the draft board higher valued positons QB, DE, LT and RB.

It happens every year for the last 8 years no player who has been drafted in the top 3 that doesn't play QB, LT, RB, WR or DE. Are you going to sit there and tell that every year these positions just happen to be the best players come draft day?

_________________The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

April 12th, 2010, 8:13 pm

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10398Location: Where ever I'm at now

Leo wrote:

Wow! What short memories some of us have!!

Glenn Dorsey was considered by most to be the top player in the 2008 draft not Jake Long. In fact I believe Jake Long was considered by most to be the 3rd or 4th best prospect behind Dorsey, Chris Long and Matt Ryan.

Sorry, but I disagree with your assessment of Matt Ryan. Ryan was not considered a viable number one pick in regards to talent, but only because of his position. Once the Dolphins signed Pennington, it was all but over for him. In fact, there were some that felt he was a reach for the Falcons. Chris Long and Jake Long were considered the top prospects for Miami. Dorsey didn't fit as a NT for the Dolphins, so that left him out of the running. Jake and Chris Long were the ones getting serious consideration from the Dolphins.

Leo wrote:

It happens every year for the last 8 years no player who has been drafted in the top 3 that doesn't play QB, LT, RB, WR or DE. Are you going to sit there and tell that every year these positions just happen to be the best players come draft day?

Tell me, have all these players worked out, or have teams been wrong about them? So, just because this has been the trend, the Lions MUST follow it?

By my count, there have only been 17 players out of 45 players selected in the top five since the year 2000 inclusive (not including last year) that have met or exceeded the expectations on them. Some of those 17 that I am including are pretty borderline (like Carson Palmer), but their shortcomings could be due to the team rather than their own.

Based on this, the Lions should do everything in their power to trade down, right? In that same time frame, there were six QBs taken first overall, but only one of them has led their team to a SB. And only one other one has met expectations of making his team better. The other four (Vick, Carr, Smith, Russell) can be considered busts because they never really met the expectations of making their team that much better or leading them into playoffs.

So, based on following other teams we should never have taken Stafford first overall, since the likelihood of him busting was so great.

Let me explain this.....teams should NOT follow trends in drafting. You draft based on the information at your disposal regarding the players you are considering with that particular pick, and weigh in the needs of your team. If a DT is considered the best player available, YOU TAKE HIM if he can help your team and improves the skill at that position by an acceptable margin.

This team needs to be thinking about adding talent, not value at positions.

April 12th, 2010, 9:13 pm

Leo

3rd Round Selection

Joined: January 11th, 2005, 11:35 pmPosts: 1157

I really don't think picking at the top of the draft is about taking the BPA and it hasn't been in a good 8 years if not longer. It's about value. Matt Stafford was the #1 pick because of value not because he was the BPA. Many experts have said the real BPA in this draft is Eric Berry. Berry is going to have a hard time going top 5 because safety is not a valuable position.

Look at this way if these players were free agents. Suh and McCoy might be the better players but Okung and Williams would get bigger contracts on the open market. It's simple supply and demand. Left tackles command more money even if they are lesser players. The 5th best LT in the NFL will make more than the best DT will. Corey Williams makes about 6 million a year and is one of the 10 highest paid DT in the NFL while Backus also makes about 6 million a year and is not one of the 10 highest.

I really believe in the end money will be the deciding factor on who the Lions take. I don't think either DT is head and shoulders better than the rest. So it will come down to position and LT trumps DT.

_________________The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

April 12th, 2010, 10:04 pm

kdsberman

League MVP

Joined: February 20th, 2007, 10:51 pmPosts: 3485Location: Saginaw, MI

Leo, ill have to disagree..

Just my opinion, but I think Suh (and McCoy i guess) ARE head and shoulders better than Dan Williams, Odrick, Price, Cody..etc. Though they may be good, theres a reason Suh/McCoy are rated #1 on almost every board, and the other DT's dont even make top ten, sometimes not even top 15.

On the other hand, i AGREE as far as the value thing goes. Theres no doubt in the world that positional value is going to play a part in who the Lions select at #2. I just think that with a guy with so much talent and potential like Suh has, they're going to have to decide which one outweighs the other....value VS pro-bowl/dominating potential.

Its a tough call, thats for sure.

And while you AND M2K both have great points, i STILL cannot change who I think they should pick. And thats still Ndamukong Suh.

Look on the bright side! In the end, this will all be one big $60+ Million learning experience!

I know that Mayhew says that he drafts BPA, but there's no evidence that he doesn't consider positional value equally important. Keep in mind that this is only a factor in the top ten or so picks where the salaries are out of control. Last year, he drafted Stafford, so that selection could have been BPA, positional value, or a little of both. We do not know. Besides, which GM tells the truth at this time of year anyway? Regardless, what he does this year will give us better insight to his drafting philosophy. If he takes Okung, then a case could be made that he considers positional value. If he selects Suh, then it would seem to indicate that he prefers BPA. I guess we'll see in a little more than a week.

_________________

April 13th, 2010, 12:10 pm

casskid

Varsity Captain

Joined: March 7th, 2007, 2:59 pmPosts: 324

Its not that many people dont think that Berry is a top 5 worthy pick, its that you also have to consider that he has some questions about what position he can play in the NFL. If he had played CB full time in college I dont doubt that people would have him for sure pencilled in.

You can debate the validity of drafting a DB so high in any draft with the new passer friendly rules, but to draft some one that would shut down a whole side of the field surely has top 5 value. Even though i think Berry will succeed at either CB or S, him making that transition alone will scare off some people.

April 13th, 2010, 2:58 pm

DayDreamer

3rd Round Selection

Joined: December 18th, 2008, 9:18 amPosts: 1103Location: Where I lay my head is home

I still think we ought to pick Berry in the first round, either at #2 or if we trade down.

Think of how much of a differencemaker Polamalu has been for the Steelers.