96 comments:

I have been reading the Wartburg Watch almost since it began and have found it very educational. I would encourage people to take the time to go back in their archives and read from the beginning. It is quite instructive regarding movements within evangelical Christianity and Baptist life in particular.

I highly recommend the Wartburg Watch. These 2 women see what is happening to the SBC are quite articulate.

I recommend going through the archives.

Being called a mega malcontent is the biggest compliment I have had in ages. May I never be associated with what is passing for church out these days. I would never prop up a charlatan. I follow Christ, not men.

Please excuse me for changing the following verse to fit current circumstances in churches today. After all preachers today change and use the Bible to say what they want it to say, and to fit their own warped agendas. The Golden Rule says :"Do unto to others as you would have them do unto to you". My "Opiniated Version", says: Do unto others AS they do unto you". So I will treat those in church the way they treat me!!!

For those of you who contend a member should make a motion at a megachurch business meeting, watch this.

Here is what happened the last time members of Bellevue tried to participate in a business meeting -- in a series of 12 videos. Can you say, "Shut 'em down"?

Six months to the day earlier, the day after a Sunday night "information meeting" in which, among other "embellishments" (I'm being generous), Gaines described the 4-foot-tall fence around a gated community (posted with no trespassing signs) he and 3 other men (the associate pastor and 2 deacons) climbed over to "reconcile with a brother" as "just an itty bitty fence" while gesturing around his knee with his hand -- as if the fence were 18 inches tall, Gaines preached at a church in West Jackson, TN. Listen to the arrogance. He was so proud the sheeple were clapping for him!

The thing with these guys is they tell half truths or just enough of the truth to divert attention from the real issue. Who cares how tall the fence was? The point was it was trespassing! And then to compound matters, he lied about the height of the fence.

Oh, and when he says 1500 people joined BBC in the previous year, what he failed to mention is that three times that many left.

Do you recall Dr Vines gleefully telling us back in 2006 that "change" was coming. It is similar to the CHANGE in the administration in Washington, DC. I really miss the former times as "change" sometimes is far worse than the "changes" we now have to face. Just goes to show you can fool enough people to get you in positions of power to something way over your head!!!

Jabezman: You are so right. A lot of things said by those in a "position" of influence are a reflection of their own personality. Often their real personality is exposed, but only to a spiritual discerner. Kind of like the narrow and broad road and few there be that find it!!!

Jabezman: How true. But, I would take the position that ACTIONS taken especially by the clergy that are SUPPOSED to be the "sheperd of the flock", should be the first to be reflected upon. The harm that a preacher can do to a fellow believer can be devasting. Sometimes irreparable. This is why it is TODAY important to focus on the Person of Jesus Christ and on His Holy Word alone!!!! People MUST get their eyes and EARS off "man", including the preachers and let Jesus reign. As Dr.Lindsay Jr., was fond of saying....."Don't put your faith in man they will disappoint you every time". AMEN!!!!

On Sunday, Westboro members Rachel and Charles Hockenbarger brought their seven children downtown to carry signs with messages like "You're going to hell" or "God is your enemy" outside First Baptist Church.

"They are a false church and lying church and really a whorehouse and dog kennel," Rachel Hockenbarger said. "Their gospel -- so to speak -- is going to take everyone to hell."

They said their protests are to show that churches across America have it all wrong. They say they don't preach the Bible, but spread the message that God hates sin but loves the sinner.

"At every church... are false teachers," Rachel Hockenbarger said. "They tell what you want to hear because you pay them. If they told you the truth, their pews would be empty and the coffers would be empty. They wouldn't be able to keep their doors open, and that's why they tell you the lies you want to hear."

"They are a false church and lying church and really a whorehouse and dog kennel," Rachel Hockenbarger said. "Their gospel -- so to speak -- is going to take everyone to hell."

I saw this quote in the protestors article and couldn't help but think that these protestors one sentence contained more "vitriol" than this blog. Wonder if Hinson investigated them. Hey, maybe they took some pictures of the pastor's wife and stole some mail?

Maybe Soud needs to add some "whereas" clauses to his Deacon Resolution?

Were they "shut down?" Maybe not. I mean, they didn't question Mac and Maurilio or the Night to Stand with Israel, after all.

I've been gone for a few days and missed the latest postings but after catching up on my reading I have decided you folks have gone over the line with all your complaining.

You always seem to find a way to justify your not standing up in business meeting and/or meeting with the pastor to discuss your grievances. I hardly think you are as timid and maligned as you are leading us to believe. I'm sure the woman who runs the anonymous blog in Memphis isn't shy nor easily intimidated or maybe just having an anonymous blog gives her courage.

Permitting the criticisms that you permit about Mac are over the line. At least have a little dignity now that you have been outed.

Anon 11:08pm As a longtime member you are mistaken concerning Dr Lindsay Sr. On Wednesday nights there were a lot of questions raised and he answered everyone of them. There was no beating around the bush when it came to listening to his remarks. He addressed each one with purity and grace. He did not need anyone to run interference for him either. You must have not been there in earlier days!!!

I've been gone for a few days and missed the latest postings but after catching up on my reading I have decided you folks have gone over the line with all your complaining.

You always seem to find a way to justify your not standing up in business meeting and/or meeting with the pastor to discuss your grievances. I hardly think you are as timid and maligned as you are leading us to believe. I'm sure the woman who runs the anonymous blog in Memphis isn't shy nor easily intimidated or maybe just having an anonymous blog gives her courage.

Permitting the criticisms that you permit about Mac are over the line. At least have a little dignity now that you have been outed.

"People targeted by Fred PhelpsSince the early 1990s, Phelps has targeted several individuals and groups in the public eye for criticism by the Westboro Baptist Church after their deaths. Prominent examples include President Ronald Reagan, Diana, Princess of Wales, Supreme Court Chief Justice William Rehnquist, National Football League star Reggie White, Sonny Bono, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, atheists, Islam and Muslims, murdered college student Matthew Shepard, the late children's television host Fred Rogers, the late Australian actor Heath Ledger, Jews,[80] Catholics, Swedes, the Irish and US soldiers killed in Iraq. He has also targeted the Joseph Estabrook Elementary School in Lexington, Massachusetts, center of the David Parker controversy. In 2007 he stated that he would target the late Rev. Jerry Falwell's funeral."

There seems to be no shortage of people on the Westboro Babtist hit list and they come from every genre. I guess the funny part is Fred Phelp's claim to be a former civil rights attorney. He seems to feel the only one intitltled to these rights is himself. His age and birthplace say volumes about his view's. Meridian, Mississippi is not a place one would want to find themselves in the late thirties and early forties if you were African American, gay or Jewish. I guess the recent picket of FBCJax only proves that even a blind squirrel can find a acorn every now and then.

NPR > Harvard Scholar's Arrest Stirs Race Debate.Morning Edition, July 21, 2009 · A distinguished professor at Harvard University was arrested after police investigated claims that he was trying to break into a house. The professor is Henry Louis Gates Jr., and the house was his own. Gates, who is African-American, has written many books on race relations, hosted a public TV series and more. His race factors into the incident because of how it started — with a call to police about what "two black males" were doing.

Lydia: Most of the saved men in the world had a Godly mother who witnessed Jesus to them when they were young!!! It was also Eunice that taught young Timothy as well. I fail to see how any sane person would believe that it is unbiblical for women to tell men about Jesus Christ. Where did this concept originate? I need chapter and verse. I believe some female professors have taught young men in college for years about the Savior. If one would stick to the scriptures where it says a pastor is to be the husband of one wife...that would be the only place a female would be out of place...certainly not at home or anywhere else a female could give a witness concerning her faith and knowledge of the Bible. But I do not believe it biblical that women are to be evangelist or preachers in churches.

Introduction: The Internet remains one of the most powerful means ever created to give voice to repressed people around the world. Unfortunately, new technologies have also given authoritarian regimes new means to identify and retaliate against those who speak out despite censorship and surveillance. Below are six basic ideas for those attempting to speak without falling victim to authoritarian surveillance and censorship, and four ideas for the rest of us who want to help support them.

" I fail to see how any sane person would believe that it is unbiblical for women to tell men about Jesus Christ. Where did this concept originate?"'

From you. You said a woman evangelist is unbiblical. An evangelist is someone who brings 'Good News'. You might want to look up the Greek and how the word is used in the NT.

"I need chapter and verse. I believe some female professors have taught young men in college for years about the Savior."

I have no idea what you are talking about needing chapter and verse about evangelizing. I did not know the Great Commission was blue for boys.

"If one would stick to the scriptures where it says a pastor is to be the husband of one wife...that would be the only place a female would be out of place."

That passage says nothing about pastors. Pastor is mentioned once in the NT as a spiritual gift. You are confusing elder with pastor. An elder simply means the spiritually mature who care for souls and truth of the Word. It is also a function of the Body and not an office. The word 'office' was added by translators. It is not in the Greek ms.

Also, If 'husband of one wife' means what you say it means then single men cannot be elders nor those without children. Paul would be unqualified.

And gives qualifications, when you skip down to verse 11, it is translated as wives when it should be women...the interlinear shows 'similarily'...women should be...and gives more qualifications for women desiring a 'good work'.

I realize this is not what you have been taught. That the Holy Priesthood is just about gone in the SBC and that there is a spiriutal layer for women only between her and Jesus Christ.

The problem is that you are thinking 'institution' and not Body of Christ. I find it amusing that folks think that Lydia, who started the first church in Europe was not an evangelist and did no teaching. Nor any of the Romans 16 women? Nor Phoebe who was a 'protasis' and 'dikanos' and do not understand why Prisca's name was listed first.

"certainly not at home or anywhere else a female could give a witness concerning her faith and knowledge of the Bible. But I do not believe it biblical that women are to be evangelist or preachers in churches."

Are you speaking of a building with a steeple or cross on it? Those did not exist in the early church. The Body of Christ..or ekklesia was an assembly of believers in homes or wherever. If you read 1 Corin, you will get an idea of how the Body operated.

Evangelists do not 'evangelize' the Body of Christ. They are taking the Good News to unbelievers. And what is a 'preacher' but a prophet? And was not Deborah a prophetess? Are you telling me God is more strict in the New Covenant than the Old Covenant concerning prophesying?

It might help if you understood terminology before you start telling folks what is unbiblical.

The gospel of the resurrection was first proclaimed to the 11 remaining disciples (the first church?) by women or a woman (depending on which of the "gospels" you read) who was commissioned to do so by the risen Christ.

Christians have been misled for centuries by the intentionally mistranslated text know as the King James Version, which was a politically inspired translation to show the proper authority of a king ("divine right") in a hierarchy -- God, King (and NOT Queen!), Bishop, Priest, Husband, Wife, children. They even did a gender change operation on a woman described as an apostle in the Greek, and changed the name to a male form.

Lydia: Please do not skip over the verse..a Pastor is to be the HUSBAND (male) of one WIFE (female). This leaves a female out of the role of a pastor..plain and simple. It really doesn't matter where the Pastor takes the position of preaching,i.e., behind a pulpit, in a school, in a field.

This is why God made man the pastor since the female is just too emotional as you seem to be on this subject. The pretense you give in using the resurrection as a place of a pastor is way out there. As a matter of fact the keepers of the tomb and the angel who rolled the stone away were the first to tell the women about the risen Lord. It was also angels who told the shepherds about the birth of Christ. I wouldn't go down either of those paths to get your definition of a pastor.

You are also attempting to reduce the KJV by tying it to a king. The KJV is almost 90% of the Great Bible and the Geneva Bible. All of the current bibles which are numerous use the same chapter and verse. I would not classify the KJV as a political document since it is more closely to the originals than any other bible in usage today. Also, I am not a Southern Baptist and have not been taught as you suppose, but just a bible believer. One last thing, the first woman was deceived not Adam. I also think when God made man it was Adam first and then Eve was second. Bringing in the equal rights for women was a good thing particularly when making job positions available and the same pay, but trying to make that equal in a church is off base especially when it comes to a pastor. Unfortunately, many pastors today have forgotten what a real pastor should be and just go after the things of this world (money and fame). This is one of the main reasons women are stepping into pulpits all over the place. I would assume that they believe they can preach the word too. Well, I agree that they can but only to women not men. There are a lot of dumb men out there but thats no excuse for a woman to take the position of a PASTOR!! To me you have not proved your point. But neither of us will change what we believe.

anon 9:33 a.m. - I don't know if women can or should be pastors, but I know that Mac Brunson is NOT one. You can call him one, or hire him to fill the position of one, but that does not make him one in action and deed. FBC Jax needs a pastor. Is anyone listening? Does anyone care about these sheep without a shepherd?

Jesus had the opportunity to put to rest this agrument about whether women could lead and pastor churches.

Jesus knowing He would die on the cross for the sins of man,and then return to Heaven to await His second coming;;Chose 12 men to be the pillars of the Church with He Himself being the Head and foundation...He did not chose any women for the role of Apostle not even His own mother!!!

When Judas by his betrayal of the Lord renunciated his Apostleship.

He was promptly replaced by Matthias a man,even invoking a prayer to God concerning who to chose,though there were many women in the upper room including Jesus' mother Mary[Acts 1:13-14,24-26]!!!

There are many other examples.Lydia you mentioned Deborah as a Prophetess and she was.But she was no Levitical preist which was relgated to men only!!!

I have no problem with women teaching men in other arenas;But when it comes the the position of Elder,Pastor,Leader over the Church the role is relegated Biblically to men.

And that does not mean that women are inferior to men,it's just the roles that God has establish for His own reasons or purposes. Compare the husband and the wife.He is not superior to her yet God stated that he is the head!!!

The greatest virtue of this site is that people on here can make absolutely anything in life apply to Mac Brunson. The fact that Lydia is operating in an illegitimate spiritual function has nothing to do with Mac so please try to stay with what is being talking about.

Lydia: I am a "liberated" woman, always have been. I believe women are equally as smart, can be equally as spiritual. Can even be bible scholars. BUT, women are NOT biblically called to be pastors or evangelist! I do not need an interlinear nor do I need "The Greek" to tell me what my bible says. Since there are 20 different Greek texts which Greek are you talking about? The KJV agrees with all of the Greek texts more than any other modern bible (because man changes it) I find this agreement in favor of the KJV. As for the KJV being a product of a political climate, I would say that God would not bless a politcal bible as His word if this were the case. King James AUTHORIZED the bible, he did not write it. 2 Peter: 1:21:"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy MEN of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."As Pastor Rod also stated, the 12 apostles were men. The Levitical Priests were MEN. Women have much to offer in churches today but they are not to have the power or to rule over the men in matters of the church. Women are not to be treated as 2nd class citizens or even as 2nd class intellects. I do not walk 3 steps behind my husband. I do not bow to any man, nor do I give over my freedom of decision making in my life to a man just because he is a man. Many women in churches and even everyday life have higher intellects, more common sense and spiritual descernment, but, women have NOT been chosen by God to be pastors and evangelists. I do not feel threatened nor slighted by this distinction I believe what my bible teaches and accept that as Gods word on the matter. I thank God for his blessings and gifts He has given me to use for His honor and glory. I trust the Lord Jesus Christ and the decisions HE has made regarding women and their positions in life and in church. It is interesting that the church is called the "Bride of Christ". HE is the head of the church. The church is the Bride.

...does this also mean that a woman seminary professor cannot teach men in seminary?

What was the biblical basis for SWBTS not wanting Sheri Klouda to be teaching men? Were the SWBTS trustees not familiar with scripture when they hired her, and it took the arrival of PP for them to realize she shouldn't be teaching men?

SWBTS should at least refund Sheri Klouda her PhD money (tution). Also should give her 3 year pay for the suffering caused. I am sure Sheri can use that money to take care of her husband whose health deteriorated during this termination.

It would have been better for some of you to have interacted on Pastor Wade's blog. You can still be Anonymous, but you need to get a Google Blogger ID. We can agree to disagree and be civil, while at the same time learning from each other's arguments or discussions. I am sure there will be other posts on Pastor Wade's blog on this subject, for this is an ongoing debate.

"Lydia: Please do not skip over the verse..a Pastor is to be the HUSBAND (male) of one WIFE (female). This leaves a female out of the role of a pastor..plain and simple. It really doesn't matter where the Pastor takes the position of preaching,i.e., behind a pulpit, in a school, in a field. "

Sweetie, Please go to the passage in 1 Tim 3 and show me where it says PASTOR. When you finish with that, find the ONE verse in all the NT that mentions 'pastor'.

Then study what the word 'likewise' denotes in Greek which is used in that passage.

Then, look up the word pastor in Greek and tell me what a 'pastor' is according to scripture. Not according to what a pastor is in your church but what it is according to scripture. Remember, it is mentioned only once.

I realize this kind of shakes your paradigm but I would prefer to go by the Word instead of mans traditions.

"This is why God made man the pastor since the female is just too emotional as you seem to be on this subject. "

LOL! (Humor is an emotion, too!)

"The pretense you give in using the resurrection as a place of a pastor is way out there."

Huh? Can you quote back to me what I said that gave you this thought? You lost me here.

" As a matter of fact the keepers of the tomb and the angel who rolled the stone away were the first to tell the women about the risen Lord. It was also angels who told the shepherds about the birth of Christ. I wouldn't go down either of those paths to get your definition of a pastor."

I think you are confused. When did I describe pastor in this way? Are you confusing Evangelist with pastor? Once again, go and search for both words in the NT and read what it says then look up each one in the Greek. I think it would help this conversation to be on the same page with the biblical definitions.

We should be very careful in how we view angels. In 1 Corin 6, we are told we will judge the angels.

"You are also attempting to reduce the KJV by tying it to a king."

No, I am not tying it to a king. HISTORY ties it to a king. the translation was ordered by King James for a very specific reason.

A little history lesson on this might be helpful for you. Especially on his tenuous hold as the Monarch. Read about his life and why this was so important to his rule. then read about the only other English translation at the time and why he would not allow it used.

Also, read the very long preface written by the translators of the KJV which is very enlightening for many. You can find it online but not in many KJV bibles because it is so long.

I like the KJV and use is among many translations in my studies. But I am familiar with some of the translation errors.

" The KJV is almost 90% of the Great Bible and the Geneva Bible. All of the current bibles which are numerous use the same chapter and verse. I would not classify the KJV as a political document since it is more closely to the originals than any other bible in usage today."

The Geneva bible only predates the KJV by 50 years. All these translations came about due to political considerations of going from Catholic to Protestant in England and Europe. It would be silly to deny that. That does not negate the quality of any translation in and of itself.

I agree that most modern translations come from the KJV. But that is changing. We cannot deny that the KJ translators added some words to scripture. One is 'office' and the others are "symbol of" in 1 Corin 11:10. There are some other examples but you get the point.

A great tool is the interlinear bible. You can access it at "scripture4all.com" and download the program. It has the actual Greek and English words underneath which can be checked by lexicons.

" Also, I am not a Southern Baptist and have not been taught as you suppose, but just a bible believer."

Actually, you sound like most of us before we really start studying on our own. We have all parroted what we have been taught on this secondary non salvic topic of women and their "roles". As if there is a way to be a pink or blue Christian. But Christ transcends that. If He does not then how can women be Christlike since our Savior came as a man?

" One last thing, the first woman was deceived not Adam. "

Huh? who said that Adam deceived her? Could you quote back to me what makes you think I said this? We need to get this one straight.

"I also think when God made man it was Adam first and then Eve was second."

Yes, scriptures shows us creation order. I am not sure what you think that means?

" Bringing in the equal rights for women was a good thing particularly when making job positions available and the same pay, but trying to make that equal in a church is off base especially when it comes to a pastor."

So, in the New Covenant, you believe there is a layer between a woman and Christ? What does creation order have to do this layer? Couldn't we use an even sillier arguement that being created last means more important?

Ezer is also how God is described in several places in the OT, so we know it does not describe a subordinate position for Eve. One flesh union does not denote authority for one over another. The position you are advocating is a result of sin of the fall. You are teaching that women should live out the consequences of sin as being Holy. That is insidious but what the church has taught for centuries. We used to also teach that slavery was God's plan, too.

But you have not answered why Deborah could be a 'prophetess' which means preach in the OC... but you believ the New Covenant is strictier than the Old Covenant? Can you explain that?

" Unfortunately, many pastors today have forgotten what a real pastor should be and just go after the things of this world (money and fame)."

Once you understand what 'pastor' means in Greek, it would be very helpful to the conversation. It would also help you in discerning false teachers, wolves, hirlings, etc. You would understand that we have made it into an office that does not exist.

" This is one of the main reasons women are stepping into pulpits all over the place."

There are no pulpits in the NT. In any case, Most 'preaching' in scrpture was done outside the Body. Check it out.

" I would assume that they believe they can preach the word too. "

I think there are many women and men who should NOT be preaching the Word but not because of their gender. James says teachers will be under stricter judgement.

Chapter and verse please that says women cannot "preach" to men. Or that women cannot "pastor" males. Please remember, that every single proof text you give me, I have studied in context in Greek in depth for many years. Be prepared to deal with context and Greek if you bring them up.

" There are a lot of dumb men out there but thats no excuse for a woman to take the position of a PASTOR!!"

So better a false preacher if male than a true one if female?

" To me you have not proved your point."

I doubt that I will but I do urge you to at least check with the Word on word meanings. We must test all teaching and be Bereans

" But neither of us will change what we believe."

I did through study and prayer. Many women want to shirk their responsibilites to the Lord and the Body by hiding behind men. 1 John says that ALL believers have been given anointing and we know the Word says that ALL true believers are given spiritual gifts. They are not pink and blue gifts. Working in the nursery is not a spiritual gift even though many churches teach that. There is nothing wrong with it and someone has to do it but to teach it is a spiritual gift is to mock the Holy Spirit and what the Word teaches about spiritual gifts. The problem is that we have institutions with pew sitters. We do not have Bodies of Christ where all are growing and maturing spiritually. In our institutions, the pew sitters rarely grow past whoever is teaching them. If they did, that pastor, would not be needed as the leader. And they know this. We were never supposed to be perpetual spiritual babes.

Study the true gifts. Because to desire them is to please God. The spiritual gifts are what it means to have life 'abundantly'.

T"here are many other examples.Lydia you mentioned Deborah as a Prophetess and she was.But she was no Levitical preist which was relgated to men only!!!"

And what did the Priest do? And what does that have to do with prophesying?

And now we do not need earthly 'priests' because Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. That is why the Temple veil was torn in two while Jesus was on the Cross. That is symbolic. The Levitical priesthood is OVER. Peter writes that we are all a part of the Holy Priesthood.

In the NEW Covenant, your sons and daughters will prophesy. That was NOT for Pentecost only. And we know that women were prophets in the OC like Deborah and Huldah. Even Miriam.

"have no problem with women teaching men in other arenas;But when it comes the the position of Elder,Pastor,Leader over the Church the role is relegated Biblically to men.'

Role is a French word which means to play a part. It's roots are from the scrolls actors used for their lines. Are you telling me I am playing a part as a Christian?

Please try to explain your point without using the word 'role'. It is very hard. And for a reason. There are NO roles as Christians. We are to BE in Christ.

"nd that does not mean that women are inferior to men,it's just the roles that God has establish for His own reasons or purposes. Compare the husband and the wife.He is not superior to her yet God stated that he is the head!!!"

If the Holy Spirit had wanted to teach 'authority over'in the 'head' passages He would NOT have Inspired Kephale. There are plenty of Greek words that clearly communicate authority over such as arche, exousia, etc. But He used Kephale which is a head/body metaphor used throughout the NC. The 'head' is the source for the Body but they go together.

...does this also mean that a woman seminary professor cannot teach men in seminary?

What was the biblical basis for SWBTS not wanting Sheri Klouda to be teaching men? Were the SWBTS trustees not familiar with scripture when they hired her, and it took the arrival of PP for them to realize she shouldn't be teaching men?

July 22, 2009 1:05 PM

This teaching is very hard to apply when comes to spiritual understanding about the Body of Christ. It is not a building.

PP decided the seminary was really a 'church' and those who went before him were sinning by allowing a woman to teach Biblical Hebrew to men. His deposition was all about the seminary being a church.

But then, PP also worked for Criswell when his wife was teaching men for years and years. Sometimes it just depends on who you are if it is allowed.

The problem is that this teaching is considered fundamental but inconsistently and badly applied. Some say it is just in the pulpit, so they take the pulpit off stage. (this cracks me up) Or they will allow a video of Beth Moore or something like that. But there were no stages or pulpits in Lydia's home in Thyatria.

This also begs the question at what age are women not allowed to teach men? 18? 13? 21? Anyone?

It really does become down right Talmudic...just like the oral law that was quoted in 1 Corin 14 and Paul blasted them for it saying, WHAT! And the Word for only given to YOU?

As a matter of fact, the tanslation of these proof texts are very Talmudic and you will find them in the Oral law.

I am not liberated at all. But a servant of Christ and to the Body. My only freedom is in Christ.

Our problem comes when we think of 'roles', position and authority. Those are carnal desires. We are all servants if truly saved. The eye cannot say to the hand: I have no need of you.

Why would Paul assume women are propheysing in the Body in 1 Corin and then turn around and tell them it is sin for them to do so? It makes no sense.

This teaching of male authority in the Body of Christ is a huge sin trap for both men and women. The whole idea negates all the 'one another' passages, not so among you, the first will be last...and on and on.

Does anyone here realize that teshuqa in Gen 3:16 was translated as 'turning' (as in Eve would turn from God to her husband and he would rule over her) until about 1300 AD?

We are teaching folks to live out the consequences of sin.

God allowed polygamy, murder, slavery, patriarchy, etc. He regulated it through the law. He worked through the depravity of man to show His Glory.

Why is it we now abhor slavery when our Christian ancestors explained it away using scripture? What makes us think we are any different? What changed?

"Jesus knowing He would die on the cross for the sins of man,and then return to Heaven to await His second coming;;Chose 12 men to be the pillars of the Church"

The 12 Apostles map to the 12 Tribes of Israel. We see this played out in Revelation.

The 12 Tribes also come from polygamy. Does that mean polygamy is acceptable? Jacob also had concubines. Does that make it acceptable?

God worked through sinful man for His purposes. Patriarchy was a result of sin. Jesus Christ did not come to upset the civil codes. He worked through and around them. He did not lobby Ceasar for more just civil laws.

I would say that FBCJ desperately needs a pastor....repeat desperately!!!! We had a pastor for many years. We will probably never see the like of these men again. Because churches have, in these latter days, been turned into businesses with CEO's at the helm. Replacing true bible preachers in the pulpits. As in our government, study what they DO not what they say. Although some "say" one thing while "doing" another! The lifestyles of these CEO's tell a lot about themselves. They like to think they "deserve" all of the money, fame, accolades, etc. While forgetting the JESUS they are to share with the lost owned nothing, died alone on a wooden Cross to redeem THEIR souls and ours.

They like to say, we are just jealous of their success. Of what!!? Selling out. Grabbing the Gusto. Making hay while the sun shines. Being rewarded for the "tough job". Do they "go" among the people? Or just the fellow water carriers with the hefty bank accounts. Do they comfort the poor, or the hurting in the fellowship. Are they humble before the people and indeed before the Lord. Easy to act humble for two or three hours during the week then return to the oppulence of the gated communities with the lavish cars. Or take endless vacations disguised as "mission trips". Which another pays for. I personally would not trade places with any one of them. I fear that God would not approve of the "saying" (indeed selling) one thing versus doing another. Your question "does anyone care that FBCJ needs a pastor. I would say yes, many tears have been shed over this situation. The people that truly cared are the ones that are gone. The ones left don't care as long as they can still just "be there". And as long as the kool-aid flows.

...does this also mean that a woman seminary professor cannot teach men in seminary?"

As I stated previously Dr.Dog I personally have no problem with a woman an especially one as learned as Mrs Klouda teaching..Just not being and Elder and leading and assuming authority over,or pastoring a Church!!!

"What was the biblical basis for SWBTS not wanting Sheri Klouda to be teaching men?"

I can't speak for Page Patterson and the SWBTS motives concerning Mrs Klouda::But I believe they were absolutely wrong and under-handed for the way they dealt with her!!!

Well if I were Mac Brunson I would be glad to see this blog is no longer about his abuses, but it is about show casing the chauvinistic view of "Bible believers" other than Mac. Personally, I believe Mac appreciates this situation since his wife is more spiritual than him, has more wisdom, and is guided by the Holy Spirit more than him. (his words, not mine) But since she can't come right out and be pastor, she kind of runs thing "unofficially" don't you think?

Lydia: Israel is God's chosen race. I believe in the OT it was proper for men to have more than one wife as some did. Most did not as they all had to till the soil or wiggle out an existence from animals. The NT talks about one wife for one man. Unless the first wife dies the man is subject to having one wife. Jesus has his bride...the born again ones. Adam was about 3000 years ahead of Abraham. He was tricked into sin by his wife. Abraham was the beginning of the Patriarch and was chosen by God. It had nothing to do with sin. Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him as righteousness. This is before the law and also before Christ was born to take away the sin of the world. Jesus came to fulfill the law...in every point. God laid out a perfect plan. The problem is that mankind thinks they have a better plan. Nothing will be better or get better until Jesus returns. Your opinion is your opinion. My opinion is my opinion. Nothing will change your opinion, and you will certainly not change mine. The only thing perfect right now on this planet is the Word of God...plain and simple.

I am embarrassed to be a conservative Christian when I read some of anons arguments against Lydia. I hope my wife and daughter don't read this nonsense, and hope they don't believe such archaic reasoning. Let me explain:

As a child, EVERY book, instruction manual, etc used the MASCULINE form to describe things. It was not until many years later the politically correct "he/she" clarification became common. Everything referred to "he" because that was the society we were in. Later the logical and reasonable assumption was "he" applied to females too in most cases. Even later, the "he/she" usage became common. That does NOT mean women were PROHIBITED from being sports players or lawyers or senators. (Gentleman, start your engines was said for decades, but that didn't mean only men could race cars!)

And more importantly, you macho chauvinist men are real quick to say that "all men" are created equal really means "men and women" and also that "If any MAN be in Christ, HE is a new creature" applies to our wives and daughters despite the use of masculine. Yet when it comes to pastors and deacons and other positions of leadership, you use this reasoning (husband of one wife) to EXCLUDE women???!! Or worse yet, pull out the old "The serpent tempted Eve, not Adam." Are you serious!

Hmmm. Let's see. The Spirit convicts you of your sin. You see your guilt and shame before a Holy God. You are told of the Good News of the gospel and out of humility and faith you repent of your sins and place your trust in Jesus for your salvation. Then, others begin to "teach" you what the greek meant and you are told you can't hold certain positions in the church and that you are obligated to give 10% of your income. Priceless. Good thing Southern Baptists couldn't stop Lincoln from freeing the slaves. After all, "its in da book." (Slaves obey your masters...)

FBC = First Baptist Cavemen?SBC = Southern Baptist Cavemen?

No one is better at twisting scripture and taking it out of context then our PP preacher boys from SEBTS and SWBTS.

YOUR MISSING THE POINT!!!Are you people paying attention? No one said women can't be what they want to be, in all areas of life. . But they are NOT biblically to be PREACHERS and EVANGELIST. Your arguments are not with your opposition on this matter they are with God. HE did NOT call women to preach......

Anon 2:56pm. Yes, we are serious. We believe what the Bible says not what you infer!!! Eve believed the lie not Adam. Males are the ones who hold the pastor's office. Women should be happy with that, as that is a much greater challenge and responsibility to be a "good sherpherd" and they (the men) are accountable to God in that role, not the women. Thats how God planned it and how He wants it. Get over it!!!

July 22, 2009 3:08 PM - speaking for God are you? "But they are NOT biblically to be PREACHERS and EVANGELIST. Your arguments are not with your opposition on this matter they are with God. HE did NOT call women to preach......"

Hey. I disagree first with who I am arguing with. I am arguing with YOU, not God almighty. (Whew!) and secondly, I disagree with your interpretation the passages you rely on. I believe God does call women to preach and evangelize and teach. You are basing your opinion/conclusion on faulty logic, if not on faulty understanding of the text. Deal with it. Slavery was wrong, no matter how many guys like you argued from scripture that God called some to be slaves and some to be masters.

July 22, 2009 4:23 PM - I perceive you to be a brainwashed, dogmatic kool-aid drinker. I don't think you really even believe your own post so I won't engage it. But women should be happy about your interpretation of their role? "Men hold the position of pastor?" Really, where and since when? In your narrow, bigoted denomition only I presume and in that great cult of the Catholic Church.

In the context of the NT, only men were shepherds (pastors) out in the field, but that does not mean the scripture prohibits women from doing so.

"That's how God planned it and that's how God wants it." Yes, you are scary indeed.

You believe what the Bible says? Really? So do pastors actually feed sheep? Am I a sheep or a person? Do you greet each other with a Holy kiss? Darrel Gilyard may have used that verse on a few people.

If you are for real, you are illustrating why Christians have little or no impact on the culture and society as mindless, arrogant, domineering nuts who are to be feared.

July 22, 2009 4:23 PM - "EVE" never existed. Her name means "women". And snakes don't have vocal cords. And Adam believed the lie too. Stop blaming women for all your problems and stop excluding them from serving where God calls them. No women should be president either right? Surely you jest in your opinions and writings just to get a rise out of us?

Jesus though equeal to God,willing submitted Himself to the subordinate position for eternity[1Cor.15:24-28;Phil.2:5-8;].

Pastor Rod, if Jesus could willingly subordinate Himself then He had the power to do so. Think about it. If there is a chain of command in the Trinity for all eternity, what will the Holy Spirit be doing? And who does the Holy Spirit report to? The Lord of Hosts or God the Father?

And you are taking Phil 2 out of context. The Lord of Hosts, Jesus Christ, as Incarnate man, HUMBLED Himself...left the GLORY of heaven to be a sacrifice for us.

When 1 Corin says God will be ALL in All, what do you think that means?

And how do you jive your opinion above with John 5:18. See, the Pharisees understood it perfectly and that is why they wanted to kill Him. Jesus was God in the Flesh and IS God right now.

God the Father is GodJesus Christ is GodThe Holy Spirit is God

"The Apostle Paul,the 13th Apostle(male),gave a order of roles in 1Cor.11:1-15!!!"

13th Apostle? So that would make Judas a real 'Apostle'?

Pastor Rod, Get serious about 1 Corin 11! That is a passage on headcoverings. But so much has been read into it...including the heresy of ESS that is so popular at SBTS these days because they are desparate to map a contrived "eternal" Trinity submission to earthly submission! So, they make our blessed, Holy, Holy, Holy Trinity an eternal chain of command! Where is the united will of ONE TRUE GOD if Jesus and the Holy Spirit are taking orders?

Back to 1 Corin 11...

In verse 10, "symbol of" was added by the translators. Check it out in the Greek. Paul is saying that women have authority over their own head..."because of the angels" which is a reference back to 1 Corin 6 about believers judging the angels. yes, even women.

Do you really think it is a sin for a man to have long hair as that passage teaches? That is what many translators put in there. We know for a fact that Paul grew his hair long for a Nazerite vow. (See Acts) Think Samson. It amazes me that more folks do not see the faulty translation of that passage.

Paul even makes the point that woman is not independent from man nor man independent from woman. But both are from God. Woman CAN be the Glory of man...this was not something thought of in the 1st century. Bruce Ware, at SBTS, teaches that this passage means that women were not created in the 'direct image of God' but they are a derivative.

So much has been read into a passage about headcoverings which was a serious cultural issue in Corinth. Women who uncovered could be divorced (many women were believers married to unbelievers in the early church) or thought of as prostitutes if the word got out. If folks do not understand this then all women who do not cover to pray or worship are in sin.

Paul is saying that men should not cover because many converted Jews (Yes, Hellenistic Jews) covered with the talith during prayer and worship as a sign of their shame for sin. Paul is saying they should not do this because of Jesus Christ took away their sin. But for women, this could put them in a very bad situation. So, he told the women they must decide. They had the freedom to choose whether to cover or not. He sums it up with the fact that the body of Christ has no such tradition.

As to Jesus Christ, Who was the Lord of Hosts in the OT, He was submitted to the Father while Incarnate. What exactly do you think it means that He will reign at the 'right hand' of the Father?

Besides, if I take your meaning about submission. Jesus Christ and men, you seem to be mapping men to God and women to Jesus Christ.

But then many comps take Eph 5 and map men to Jesus Christ and women to the church from that passage.

So, which is it? Are you guys God or Jesus Christ? Or, just depraved humans saved by Grace like women?

We are only humans. To try and map your authority over others the relationship of the ONE TRUE God of the Trinity is taking it a bit far and I worry for folks who continually teach this.

Your arguments are not with your opposition on this matter they are with God. HE did NOT call women to preach......

July 22, 2009 3:08 PM

Actually, my argument is with your interpretation of several proof texts. The slavers in the South claimed to be on God's side, too. You should read some Dabney sometime. A much respected theologian at the time who made the same arguments about slavery with a few proof texts.

He also claimed to be on God's side and the North, wasn't.

So, instead of calling me unbiblical, like you did in your original comment, why not just say we disagree but are still both in the Body of Christ? It is not a salvic issue. And I notice you do not engage me in content on the translations but just claim to know who God calls.

Besides, all believers are "called" to minister and witness. Some would call that preaching. Others call it 'evangelizing' and some call pastoring, discipling. The traditions of men are clouding your ability to see truth in scripture about the Body of Christ and how it is an organism not an organization.

"Anon 2:56pm. Yes, we are serious. We believe what the Bible says not what you infer!!! Eve believed the lie not Adam."

Oy vey. Eve was deceived. Yes, That is what scripture teaches. But it also teaches that Adam sinned willfully. So what are you saying? That this means ALL women for ALL time are more easily deceived..even if saved?

If that is true then it also means that ALL men for ALL time are more likely to deal treacherously with God. And sin willfully and knowingly..even if saved.

There is a difference. Eve admitted it. Adam blamed Eve and God. Adam was ordered out of the garden. Eve followed him because she turned from God and to her husband.

Ever wonder why God blessed Eve by telling her that Messiah would come through woman in Gen 3? Satan hates women very much.

I second this motion WD! Beginning to sound like some of us have a case of OCD! ================================== Anonymous said... WD: "May we have another subject on the blog. please. We need to let this subject just fade away" . . .

Your comments: "EVE" never existed. Her name means "women". And snakes don't have vocal cords. And Adam believed the lie too. Stop blaming women for all your problems and stop excluding them from serving where God calls them. No women should be president either right?

Response: I guess you don't believe your bible word for word. I believe a snake can talk and so can a burning bush if the bible says it does. Cover to cover, it is God's Word - every jot and tittle.

Also, you are still taking much of the comments of other Anon posters way out of context. I would vote for a women president if she were the best conservative candidate. The argument is only over the office of pastor, elder, etc. Who is blaming them for all "our" problems - only in your twisted view of the discussion. No one is saying women should not serve God in any capacity. It is only certain offices such as the bible teaches. Yes, it does teach that.

"I would vote for a women president if she were the best conservative candidate. The argument is only over the office of pastor, elder, etc. Who is blaming them for all "our" problems - only in your twisted view of the discussion."

So, it is ok for her to be President but she would be in sin if she taught a bible study for her male staffers at work because she is a woman?

(BTW: I agree with you the snake could talk and Eve means Life. Adam means Human.)

Lydia please go start you on blog. This is really inconsiderate of you to hijack other's blogs. Besides, your posts usually have an obnoxious and rude tone, regardless of the validity of your point. And you always have to get the last word in. I've seen your work on other blogs, too. Go away for awhile.

THANK YOU WD!You are a trumpeter for the Lord - keep blowing your horn. Your lamp brightens anothers darkness - keep it burning - someone else in the body needs your ministry - thank you for not neglecting that responsibilty - our gifts are manifold, one brother's gift is not mine. One person is like an eye - he is a seer of visions. Another is like a hand - he has the genius of practicality (and so on) . . . And each requires the other, if either is to be perfected.

Lydia please go start you on blog. This is really inconsiderate of you to hijack other's blogs. Besides, your posts usually have an obnoxious and rude tone, regardless of the validity of your point. And you always have to get the last word in. I've seen your work on other blogs, too. Go away for awhile.

Women are not the source of all of the posts regarding the fallacy of the limitation of the leadership of a church to men. I am a male, life-long Baptist (3 2-wk bible schools and revivals every summer), deacon, teacher. I have a Ph.D. in psychology with an emphasis on the study of how we know what we know, including varying concepts of truth. I am an attorney in general practice and have worked with churches of various theological bents, including very fundamentalist. Part of my practice is helping churches deal with the problem of the straying pastor and the liabilities it can cause for the church. BTW, it usually starts with an abuse of authority -- assuming a "divine right of pastoral leadership" to determine everything about the church.

I read and use a variety of commentaries and translations and have in-house access to interlinear Greek New Testament and Hebrew Old Testament, and instant email or telephone access to senior professors of New Testament, Biblical Greek and Hebrew, Theology, etc., who are members of the church where I serve and teach classes there.

Patriachry and the limitations of the service of women are the result of the fall and the sinful nature of human beings, including the scriptural Adam and Eve. With the death and resurrection of Jesus the Christ, we are now in a period of partial redemption, awaiting its fulfillment at the end of this age. The church is to strive for perfection, which, among other things, means we are to leave behind the sinful nature, including patriarchy, which is driven by envy and is a source of strife.

Thy Peace, One gets used to name calling. When they cannot engage content they resort to female type insults such as "Ladies are not harsh' (It is ok for Mac to be harsh, though, that is called firmness and resolute) or hyperactive women (which is bad in a female?), and even unbiblical even though one has been studying deeply for years.

So, name call away!

Tom, thanks for your kind comment. It would be interesting to note some of the programs, committees, etc that Mac's wife is involved with that might include teaching men and how folks view a pulpit as a mysterious and sacred piece of furniture only for men to use in mixed company in buildings with steeples and cross icons.

"You are badly misinterpreting the word of God, and the consequences of your misinterpretation are enormous," Burleson says.

Burleson says Jesus treated women as equals, and if Southern Baptists ignore his example, the denomination will shrivel. Burleson believes there's a quiet underground movement within the convention to rethink women's roles.

Also:

Consider the case of Sheri Klouda, who taught Hebrew at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth. All was well until Paige Patterson, a former president of the denomination, arrived to run the seminary.

"I was told I would not be considered for tenure because I was a woman and because he believed that women should not be teaching theology to men," says Klouda.

Klouda found another teaching job at a non-Baptist university. In the meantime, Southwestern has developed a new "track" for women seminarians, which includes home-making and home-schooling.

I have nothing against mega-churches. I just don't like abusive churches. I attend the closest thing to a mega-church in our little community. Spiritual abuse can happen in any size church. It all but destroyed the small church I was in before starting the Provender site. Malcontent? Yes. Not content with bullying pastors and churches.

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About Me

We're small, insignificant, and harmless. But we have a loud, piercing bark that seems to annoy those in mega churches the most. Not Kool-Aid drinkers, only fresh, filtered water, please; with Grape or Cherry flavoring from Walmart. "Let him alone; God hath bidden him to speak:"