All they did was showed that some people disagreed. Did those in power care? No. Did those in power make any changes? No. Did the protest movements achieve any tangible results? No. They exercised their free speech and that was it. Economic neoliberalism is a defining characteristic of the present day international order. At the end of the day, to the protest movements, all I have to say is "so what?" Sure, I agree that it's wrong. Standing in the street yelling about it isn't going to right the wrong. Go do something productive.

No. They said this is wrong. They stood up to the people in charge and said this is wrong. That is why history will say it was wrong because of the people that said it was wrong. They served justice and outlined an injustice. That was very productive.

These are not vague terms. A revolution is a dream-given will. I can't explain it any better than that. I just told you the plan and how it will be realized. The world is shaped by dreamers. You have to have faith in them.

"Dream-given will"? I don't know what that's meant to mean.

And you're talking in vague generalities, not specifics. Give me a problem in the world, an injustice, and tell me how it can be changed. This is the thing - people talk a lot about change, about revolution, about paradigm shifts, but I don't see enough in the way of "X, Y, and Zed need to be changed, and we'll do it by implementing A, B, and C. To get in a position to viably do this, we must do D, E, and F."

__________________

__________________"Mediocrity is never so dangerous as when it is dressed up as sincerity." - Søren Kierkegaard

Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

Originally posted by LemonMelon For the record, I agree with Axver on most every issue here, but I'm too preoccupied at the moment to be articulate. Hey, just like everyone else in my generation that I've looked down on tonight.

I am starting to wonder if the political divide between you and I isn't as wide as I initially thought it was.

__________________"Mediocrity is never so dangerous as when it is dressed up as sincerity." - Søren Kierkegaard

Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

I am starting to wonder if the political divide between you and I isn't as wide as I initially thought it was.

The difference between you and I is that my view on social issues is still a bit compromised by my spiritual beliefs. Just slightly. But I believe in a God that doesn't get off on taking away freedom, and this is a recent revelation. My political views change all the time, just as my view of people changes, so that could explain it.

No. They said this is wrong. They stood up to the people in charge and said this is wrong. That is why history will say it was wrong because of the people that said it was wrong. They served justice and outlined an injustice. That was very productive.

The history books will record that there was dissent but that it remained a minority position and wielded insufficient influence to make any changes. It was a failure.

I don't need somebody to point out an injustice. I need somebody to rectify an injustice.

__________________"Mediocrity is never so dangerous as when it is dressed up as sincerity." - Søren Kierkegaard

Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

And you're talking in vague generalities, not specifics. Give me a problem in the world, an injustice, and tell me how it can be changed. This is the thing - people talk a lot about change, about revolution, about paradigm shifts, but I don't see enough in the way of "X, Y, and Zed need to be changed, and we'll do it by implementing A, B, and C. To get in a position to viably do this, we must do D, E, and F."

A will that expands as a dream across the universe. Dreams show us who we are and where we are going. A dream is a guiding light. You have a dream and you will it into existence. The dream lives forever.

Say I want out of Iraq, I dream of how to do it so I will that dream into existence. Others will follow you and the revolution begins.

The difference between you and I is that my view on social issues is still a bit compromised by my spiritual beliefs. Just slightly. But I believe in a God that doesn't get off on taking away freedom, and this is a recent revelation. My political views change all the time, just as my view of people changes, so that could explain it.

Ah, right. I should say that I was a leftie before I was an atheist, not the other way around. I always kept my religion and my politics separate, since politics govern a religiously diverse society and I do not believe it appropriate to privilege one particular religious interpretation over another.

Incidentally, we may not be that far apart on some social issues. I avoid abortion discussions for the simple reason I see both sides of the debate and have no opinion. I'd rather avoid the debate entirely by eliminating the demand for abortions in the first place. Go straight to the root cause of the matter (heh heh, pardon the lame pun).

__________________"Mediocrity is never so dangerous as when it is dressed up as sincerity." - Søren Kierkegaard

Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

A will that expands as a dream across the universe. Dreams show us who we are and where we are going. A dream is a guiding light. You have a dream and you will it into existence. The dream lives forever.

Say I want out of Iraq, I dream of how to do it so I will that dream into existence. Others will follow you and the revolution begins.

This sounds like an almost mystical politics to me. I'm not even sure how to respond to it. I tend to not think in terms of dreams, for one thing, but of ideologies and policies.

__________________"Mediocrity is never so dangerous as when it is dressed up as sincerity." - Søren Kierkegaard

Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

Ah, right. I should say that I was a leftie before I was an atheist, not the other way around. I always kept my religion and my politics separate, since politics govern a religiously diverse society and I do not believe it appropriate to privilege one particular religious interpretation over another.

Incidentally, we may not be that far apart on some social issues. I avoid abortion discussions for the simple reason I see both sides of the debate and have no opinion. I'd rather avoid the debate entirely by eliminating the demand for abortions in the first place. Go straight to the root cause of the matter (heh heh, pardon the lame pun).

My stance on abortion is incredibly vague and varies from situation to situation. I think it's a horrible and very sad issue to discuss, but I also acknowledge it as part of life. People really do need it to be available on occasion, and whenever I discuss it, my opinions reflect this.

Dissent has to exist for the sake of justice. That is what they gave themselves to, justice.

This brings me back to our original discussion. I see these people talking, I see them point out injustice, I see them using free speech to offer dissent.

But I don't see them actually making any changes, I don't see them impacting policy, and I don't see them achieving ideological goals. So I write them off as a bunch of noisy people on the ideological fringe who have nice objectives but no action to achieve them.

And this is probably why we see so much apathy.

__________________"Mediocrity is never so dangerous as when it is dressed up as sincerity." - Søren Kierkegaard

Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

This sounds like an almost mystical politics to me. I'm not even sure how to respond to it. I tend to not think in terms of dreams, for one thing, but of ideologies and policies.

Your spirit has to drive you to insanity to fight for something. Only a dream-given will could do such a thing. It isn't mystical. It is giving yourself to the spirit of the revolution. It will take you where you need to go.

This brings me back to our original discussion. I see these people talking, I see them point out injustice, I see them using free speech to offer dissent.

But I don't see them actually making any changes, I don't see them impacting policy, and I don't see them achieving ideological goals. So I write them off as a bunch of noisy people on the ideological fringe who have nice objectives but no action to achieve them.

And this is probably why we see so much apathy.

How are you not understanding this? They did what is just. You can't ask anymore of them. They acted as a force of justice.

My stance on abortion is incredibly vague and varies from situation to situation. I think it's a horrible and very sad issue to discuss, but I also acknowledge it as part of life. People really do need it to be available on occasion, and whenever I discuss it, my opinions reflect this.

Its main influence on me was the whole "do unto others as you would have done unto you" thing - which I still hold as a secular virtue and which underpins basically my entire political ideology. It's why I'm a pacifist. A weak pacifist (i.e. I believe violence used in self-defence is legitimate), but a pacifist nonetheless.

I'm torn on abortion in a way I have found unreconcilable thus far, simply because the debate is so heated and contested that I don't feel I have adequate facts to reconcile my competing attitudes. On the one hand, I accept all the arguments of women's rights. On the other hand, as a pacifist, I place an incredibly high value on human life and oppose any action that will take life without the consent of the individual (in other words, I support euthenasia but not the death penalty). I have yet to ascertain when life begins, not being a scientist, and the heated debate about when it begins just leaves me more confused, so that throws a massive spanner in the works. Do I err on the side of caution and refuse to take what may be a life ... or what? I don't know. Since the debate has little personal relevance to me, I keep my distance for now.

__________________

__________________"Mediocrity is never so dangerous as when it is dressed up as sincerity." - Søren Kierkegaard

Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."