Welcome. I don't know about changing parties, but people shouldn't be accused of being racists for disagreeing.

The whole strategy seems to be "You support Obama or you're a racist." I was accused of having white supremacists for parents and wanting to assassinate Obama. I couldn't believe it.

06-04-2008, 10:14 PM

Constitutionally Speaking

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth

Thank you!

I would love for you to tell me your view on what is happening with habeas corpus. I am especially concerned with this.

Thanks,

Elspeth

My basic view is that the left wing demonized our President over something that has a history going back to FDR and WWII AND which had prior SCOTUS approval.

The SCOTUS case was Ex Parte Quirin where 8 German agents INCLUDING a U.S. citizen were tried before a Military Tribunal and 6 of the 8 executed for their crimes.

So the whole idea that Bush violated the Constitution and specifically Habeas Corpus was a stretch. Demonizing him for something that had legal precedent was nothing but a smear attempt on the part of the left.

Either way, the Supreme court ruled against the Administration and took away the power that every President has had. If ANYTHING, the Bush administration, via their failure in court, has STRENGTHENED Habeas Corpus to degrees never seen before - and I think to the country's detriment. We are turning our Constitution into a suicide pact.

06-04-2008, 10:15 PM

SaintLouieWoman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth

Thank you. I appreciate it.

When it comes to government, I think it has an important role. What bothers me most is its inefficiency. I know people at high levels in certain agencies that work very hard and are really good, but the get undermined by both political appointees above them, and some of the workers below them who are basically taking up space. THere are good people in government, but they often get overwhelmed by the time wasters, the politicos, etc.

I have another friend who is a contractor for a government agency. She does all the GSers work for them, gets no credit and does not have the job security. The contractors used to get paid more, but, now, that's not even true. My friend says that one GS15 she knows sits around reading science fiction all day, running out the clock until retirement.

In the end, what they need to do is go through and find all of the hardworking Gsers and contractors and keep them. Then, they need to get rid of the rest. They could then hire some new people, and a lot of fewer of them, and you'd get smaller AND more efficient government.

That's my view of it, having friends in different agencies.

Welcome Elsbeth. You sound like you have a good knowledge of the government process. I've sold to various government agencies for over 25 years. You give an extremely accurate picture of what goes on. There are some good, competent government people, but the system itself never looks at the big picture, just from one fiscal year to the next fiscal year. Long range planning isn't high on their priorities.

You are more than welcome here. Your ideas aren't all that incompatible with many here. I applaud your decision to not just go by party. I will be supporting McCain, as the option isn't viable in my opinion. I saw a friend last night and we're both looking for McCain headquarters so we can volunteer.

06-04-2008, 10:20 PM

Elspeth

Quote:

Originally Posted by Constitutionally Speaking

My basic view is that the left wing demonized our President over something that has a history going back to FDR and WWII AND which had prior SCOTUS approval.

The SCOTUS case was Ex Parte Quirin where 8 German agents INCLUDING a U.S. citizen were tried before a Military Tribunal and 6 of the 8 executed for their crimes.

So the whole idea that Bush violated the Constitution and specifically Habeas Corpus was a stretch. Demonizing him for something that had legal precedent was nothing but a smear attempt on the part of the left.

Either way, the Supreme court ruled against the Administration and took away the power that every President has had. If ANYTHING, the Bush administration, via their failure in court, has STRENGTHENED Habeas Corpus to degrees never seen before - and I think to the country's detriment. We are turning our Constitution into a suicide pact.

Thank you for explaining this. I think part of the problem is the Jose Padilla case. He was an American citizen and held without many of his legal rights. I understood that Padilla was trouble, but my fear was the precedent.

An older friend of mine once told me that part of the problem with the American people is that we don't know what exactly was done to protect us during WWII. Your example supports that.

06-04-2008, 10:27 PM

Elspeth

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintLouieWoman

Welcome Elsbeth. You sound like you have a good knowledge of the government process. I've sold to various government agencies for over 25 years. You give an extremely accurate picture of what goes on. There are some good, competent government people, but the system itself never looks at the big picture, just from one fiscal year to the next fiscal year. Long range planning isn't high on their priorities.

You are more than welcome here. Your ideas aren't all that incompatible with many here. I applaud your decision to not just go by party. I will be supporting McCain, as the option isn't viable in my opinion. I saw a friend last night and we're both looking for McCain headquarters so we can volunteer.

I used to live in Washington DC and still have friends back there. The budgeting process is exactly as you describe it: everything is about spending all you get this year so you can get more than that next year. There is no long term planning, and a lot of that has to do with Jimmy Carter's move years ago to put political appointees in charge. The most planning that can be done, if any, is over 4 years, and sometimes, even 2 years, depending on how Congress is situated in terms of party. Sometimes, it seems that everything gets undone every 4 or 8 years. That was one of the reasons I didn't want to work for the government: I couldn't imagine having everything undone. Even the military gets frustrating. I have a friend who is a civilian working for an arm of the service in procurement. She and her team will work out these detailed cost analyses and then some politico or admiral will go golfing with a contractor, and the analysis will not even be looked at.

I appreciate your welcome. I am a moderate and have always been ok as a Dem, but this year I didn't even recognize my party.

06-04-2008, 10:35 PM

SaintLouieWoman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth

I used to live in Washington DC and still have friends back there. The budgeting process is exactly as you describe it: everything is about spending all you get this year so you can get more than that next year. There is no long term planning, and a lot of that has to do with Jimmy Carter's move years ago to put political appointees in charge. The most planning that can be done, if any, is over 4 years, and sometimes, even 2 years, depending on how Congress is situated in terms of party. Sometimes, it seems that everything gets undone every 4 or 8 years. That was one of the reasons I didn't want to work for the government: I couldn't imagine having everything undone. Even the military gets frustrating. I have a friend who is a civilian working for an arm of the service in procurement. She and her team will work out these detailed cost analyses and then some politico or admiral will go golfing with a contractor, and the analysis will not even be looked at.

I appreciate your welcome. I am a moderate and have always been ok as a Dem, but this year I didn't even recognize my party.

After so many years of selling to the feds, I've about had it. The illogic is getting to me. The manufacturer of the product I represent got into a dispute with GSA! :eek: The contracting officer was being unreasonable. I know the VP with the manufacturer is a reasonable person. He couldn't take it and decided to go through a back door for the contract. Well, the new fiscal year started 10-1-07. We still don't have a contract.

Had a problem with one branch of the government here. They wanted to purchase my product, but refused to buy w/o the contract #. The open market price was lower than another method, purchased at a price at least 20% higher, from an 8a contractor. Instead they went with a mom and pop local place who lied and either gave an expired contract # or just made one up. I was the lowest price, gave them GSA terms, yet they went with someone else because I was honest and told the truth.

It's been blowing my mind. I've known people in the military who've worked for agencies here who left the military and took civilian status when Clinton was elected. They said they couldn't salute him. There are some very good people in the government; but I think the best just can't take the system for long. They end up with folks who are riding out the clock til retirement.

Thank you for explaining this. I think part of the problem is the Jose Padilla case. He was an American citizen and held without many of his legal rights. I understood that Padilla was trouble, but my fear was the precedent.

An older friend of mine once told me that part of the problem with the American people is that we don't know what exactly was done to protect us during WWII. Your example supports that.

Glad to explain it. I also fear setting bad precedent, but in this case, I think the fears were unwarranted. It is not as if a Military Tribunal is a railroading session. The reason the Govt. wanted this was to keep information out of the press and away from those sympathetic to the terrorists - out of the hands of the enemies - who could use some of the info to counter us in our efforts in the war. As it turned out, the Govt. chose not to use some of it's most convincing evidence and therefore could not even charge Padilla with the most serious crime that he committed.

06-04-2008, 10:54 PM

This is exactly why Tom Coburn rocks.

06-04-2008, 10:58 PM

Elspeth

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintLouieWoman

After so many years of selling to the feds, I've about had it. The illogic is getting to me. The manufacturer of the product I represent got into a dispute with GSA! :eek: The contracting officer was being unreasonable. I know the VP with the manufacturer is a reasonable person. He couldn't take it and decided to go through a back door for the contract. Well, the new fiscal year started 10-1-07. We still don't have a contract.

Had a problem with one branch of the government here. They wanted to purchase my product, but refused to buy w/o the contract #. The open market price was lower than another method, purchased at a price at least 20% higher, from an 8a contractor. Instead they went with a mom and pop local place who lied and either gave an expired contract # or just made one up. I was the lowest price, gave them GSA terms, yet they went with someone else because I was honest and told the truth.

It's been blowing my mind. I've known people in the military who've worked for agencies here who left the military and took civilian status when Clinton was elected. They said they couldn't salute him. There are some very good people in the government; but I think the best just can't take the system for long. They end up with folks who are riding out the clock til retirement.

Oh Lord, I understand your frustration. The more honest you are, the more crazy they make you. And sometimes, certain contractors will call the Congressional representatives and make trouble, so that even though they don't follow the rules, they get priority. I have great sympathy for you. It's a terrible mess!

I'm glad I came here too. This has been an interesting discussion with intelligent people who seem to have real jobs! :) (Sorry, I couldn't resist that.)