Intonation - Do you really know?

I noticed this weekend at the Nationals the adjudicators talking about intonation over and above basic tuning - I got wondering, How many bandsmen really know what intonation is? and how do you explain it to others?

My understanding is, intonation is how the notes in a chord sit together to make that chord in tune. For example - three horns playing g's - tuning. three horns playing G,B,D - intonation. . .

I would say that tuning is the mechanical adjustment by a particular player at a particular time, of a note produced from a lump of shiny metal,

Intonation is the adjustment of a note by the player using their embouchure and according to the piece of music they are playing and where a note is sitting within a chord etc. Adjustment is more often than not subconscious.

Few (lower section) brass bands in my experience ever properly tune the band, they only ever unwittingly have time wasting intonation competitions. That is to say, "here is a note, see if you can match it".

To me, intonation is the relationship between each note on the instrument. For example, bands always tune the tuning note (concert Bb), but they can still have intonation problems because certain notes in the instrument will be out of tune.

For example, soprano cornets tend to be flat around D and E near the top of the stave, and if you tune middle G with the tuning note, this will not solve the problem, however, high G can tend to be sharp. This is intonation not tuning.

There will be similar issues on all instruments of the band. To tune up makes on concert Bbs in tune, not all instruments in tune.

Too many people think that if you push your valve down, all notes will be in tune.

Complete rubbish.

It's the same on trombones. There are not 7 positions on a trombone. More like 1007. Each note has it's own place on the slide and that can change depending on the chord.

It is a wonderful thing called the harmonic series. You have the fundamental harmonic which is the pedal. 1st is bottom C, 2nd is second line G, 3rd is middle C, 4th is E, 5th is G, 6th is Bb, 7th is top C.

Generally speaking the 4th is a little flat which is why some sop playes play their Es on 1+2. 5th is sharp so people lip down when they play it. 6th is monstrously flat so don't bother using it unless you are doing lip trills.

No doubt someone will counter this and say I am speaking a load of tripe.

I see it more basic than that. Knowing where every note "sits" on YOUR OWN particular instrument once you're "in tune"

Click to expand...

I'd go with that. Played the same C, E, G, F's etc for 20 or so years. Slide hardly moved over the years as you also need the ability to play "in tune" with your surroundings, therefore familiarity with the instrument is paramount. As I tell my band, once tuned up, there is no excuse for intonation, its a listening game, together YOUR PRACTISE to get the familiarity with yourself and the instrument.

Howard Snell used to describe intonation as being a musicians personal hygiene ... everyone knows when you have problems with it

Intonation is a players responsibility, you need to know how to make your instrument play in tune. Find out where it's problem areas are and what the resolutions to those problems are, by practice, scales and interval studies etc.. .

Too many people think that if you push your valve down, all notes will be in tune.

Complete rubbish.

It's the same on trombones. There are not 7 positions on a trombone. More like 1007. Each note has it's own place on the slide and that can change depending on the chord.

It is a wonderful thing called the harmonic series. You have the fundamental harmonic which is the pedal. 1st is bottom C, 2nd is second line G, 3rd is middle C, 4th is E, 5th is G, 6th is Bb, 7th is top C.

Generally speaking the 4th is a little flat which is why some sop playes play their Es on 1+2. 5th is sharp so people lip down when they play it. 6th is monstrously flat so don't bother using it unless you are doing lip trills.

No doubt someone will counter this and say I am speaking a load of tripe.

Click to expand...

Actually hell bones, scientifically that is exactly right, and the properties of the waves that make the note are all dependant on the series.

theMouthPieceRelated Searches

Actually hell bones, scientifically that is exactly right, and the properties of the waves that make the note are all dependant on the series.

Click to expand...

I'd qualify that by saying that while the information is good, it's presented slightly confusingly - while it's reasonably correct to talk about fundamental, then 1st overtone, 2nd overtone, etc., more people will have seen the pedal referred to as the "1st harmonic", or "1st partial", then bottom C as the 2nd, etc. - a labelling scheme that is one number higher than HB's throughout. It certainly made me do a double take... "I thought Ant was supposed to be quite a good trombonist...", then "Oh yes, it's just that the numbers he's used aren't what I expected".

I think that balance is often overlooked when it comes to intonation. If the chord is well balanced it is often easier to adjust your intonation and hear the chord as a whole. I was thinking about this very thing on Saturday: I was playing Young Person's Guide in an orchestra concert on Saturday. In the Harp Variation (Variation I?) there is a single "shock" note on muted brass. During the rehearsal, we played it and it sounded ok but not quite right. The conductor asked us to hold it as a chord, and by simply asking the top trumpet to play a little louder and balance up, the chord was instantly more in tune and tighter.

Perhaps intonation is something conductors can do something about, by spending more time working on balance? Not sure what everyone else thinks?

But in general I like the opinion of most of you that intonation is about a) being in tune with yourself and b) being in tune with the moment.

Tricky one to explain, isn't it? Intonation also characterises musical colour and expression. Pitch can change slightly to add to the content of the musical phrase or harmonic progression. See this article below for additional ideas ...

It is a wonderful thing called the harmonic series. You have the fundamental harmonic which is the pedal. 1st is bottom C, 2nd is second line G, 3rd is middle C, 4th is E, 5th is G, 6th is Bb, 7th is top C.

Generally speaking the 4th is a little flat which is why some sop playes play their Es on 1+2. 5th is sharp so people lip down when they play it. 6th is monstrously flat so don't bother using it unless you are doing lip trills.

Click to expand...

Actually hell bones, scientifically that is exactly right, and the properties of the waves that make the note are all dependant on the series.

Click to expand...

I believe it's urban legend that a brass instrument produces the actual natural harmonic series of an open pipe. Acoustically they are a sort of one end closed cone, which only roughly approximates the harmonics of an open pipe, but is alterable by the manufacturer by varying the various tapers. Each frequency has a different reflection point down the open taper.

If 1st space E really were the one from the natural harmonic sequence then it would be 15 cents flat from the equal temperament E. Even if your open E were perfectly in tune (using equal temperament) 1+2 would still be about 11 cents sharp because if the slides for 1 and 2 are the right lengths for ratios of a whole and half tone against the length of the instrument then both are a bit short compared to the length plus the other value. I.e. musical intervals combine geometrically while lengths of tubing combine arithmetically.

I believe it's urban legend that a brass instrument produces the actual natural harmonic series of an open pipe. Acoustically they are a sort of one end closed cone, which only roughly approximates the harmonics of an open pipe, but is alterable by the manufacturer by varying the various tapers. Each frequency has a different reflection point down the open taper.

If 1st space E really were the one from the natural harmonic sequence then it would be 15 cents flat from the equal temperament E. Even if your open E were perfectly in tune (using equal temperament) 1+2 would still be about 11 cents sharp because if the slides for 1 and 2 are the right lengths for ratios of a whole and half tone against the length of the instrument then both are a bit short compared to the length plus the other value. I.e. musical intervals combine geometrically while lengths of tubing combine arithmetically.

I'd qualify that by saying that while the information is good, it's presented slightly confusingly - while it's reasonably correct to talk about fundamental, then 1st overtone, 2nd overtone, etc., more people will have seen the pedal referred to as the "1st harmonic", or "1st partial", then bottom C as the 2nd, etc. - a labelling scheme that is one number higher than HB's throughout. It certainly made me do a double take... "I thought Ant was supposed to be quite a good trombonist...", then "Oh yes, it's just that the numbers he's used aren't what I expected".

Intonation is more about being in tune with yourself and the people around you...and that's on every note within a chord structure...for example the pitch of a 'c' in one chord may be sharper than in a different one. You have to train yourself to hear the difference, and know when you are not in tune.