Sorry I have not been watching and don't want to read through that whole thread to see if there is a mention of it, can someone help me out? Kinda curious what his public reaction is going to be, aren't you?

Darn you Matt. You shun home for months, then materialize and present yourself out of the blue...expecting a Cliffs Notes report on the chiseling calamity...

...well sorry mister! You're going to be required to read the thread.

Or maybe you can read Jon Krakauer's upcoming book, Under the Banner of Chipping: A story of Violent Rock Modeling. (I wouldn't expect great accuracy or focus...but Mr Krakauer knows sensationalism sells books)

This I can tell you: Ivan's mother tears up whenever her son's name is mentioned...and the cliffs themselves are completely shattered over what he has become...

Dead Point Magazine has had his phone number, place of business and home address on their video comments so he can be harassed publically, and youwant him to make a statement! Lol. Ethics police climbers are a$$holes

I don't think anyone said they "want him to make a comment." Matt said he was "kinda curious." I am too... I'm curious if he has more remorse or indignation or simply doesn't give a fuk. Not that it matters, just curious. I'm also curious if Ondra gets any bitches.

Not a lot of craftsmanship in evidence in that chipping video -- he looked like Bam-Bam on crack -- but a small amount of this stuff went on at Woodson in the 80's. And as has been pointed out, in Josh and the valley as well. Today it's mostly forgotten and rarely, if ever mentioned.

Funny how the passage of time cools the jets and it all just fades away. In addition to the brutal hack job that seems to be going on (for what looks to be a chossfest problem, no less) the individual in question has been a pathological spotlight seeker at times and so the commentary on this will be al the more biting and sarcastic. It all adds up to a run-of-the-mill slagfest -- one we'll all have forgetten in a few months. I'm not an apoligist, mind you. I was physically cringing when I saw that vid -- thinking to myself -- WHAT THE F*#K?!! Might as well have used a jackhammer.

Personally, I think that crap that Ken Nichols has pulled in that part of the country is far more odious and loathsome.

Or maybe you can read Jon Krakauer's upcoming book, Under the Banner of Chipping: A story of Violent Rock Modeling. (I wouldn't expect great accuracy or focus...but Mr Krakauer knows sensationalism sells books)

Or you can read the Book of Mormon, which is WAY more accurate. You even get your own planet!

Ahhahhha! But the Mormons built a beautiful Tabernacle with their chipped rocks AND they owned them outright before they touched them with the pneumatic chisel AND (here's the best part) ...............

wait fer it.....

...THEY STILL, TO THIS VERY DAY, LET US CLIMBERS CLIMB ON THEM!!! (Can you say "Little Cottonwood Canyon". Bless their souls and may they all go to heaven - they deserve our thanks! (and I am not a mormon but really appreciate their largess in this thing)

It's NEVER been doctrine and teaching the tenet in church is prohibited.

Is teaching things that WERE past doctrine prohibited? Like plural marriage and the fact that blacks inherited the curse of Caine? I guess if you are going to believe in such fairy tales it isn't that hard to justify changing your beliefs whenever you feel like it. Then you can pull the "official doctrine" card whenever you get backed into a corner.

Or maybe morons have redefined the meaning of "doctrine?" I will stick with M-W for my definitions:

doctrine:
a : something that is taught

I'd say an official member of the Quorum of 12 Apostles (or governing body of the LDS church) teaching something qualifies it as doctrine... even if he was excommunicated and reinstated after Brigham Young tried to nail one of his wives.

1876:
"All those who are counted worthy to be exalted and to become Gods, even the sons of God, will go forth and have earths and worlds like those who framed this and millions on millions of others

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 18:259, October 8, 1876

"Then will they become Gods...they will never cease to increase and to multiply, worlds without end. When they receive their crowns, their dominions, they then will be prepared to frame earths like unto ours and to people them in the same manner as we have been brought forth by our parents, by our Father and God”

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 17:143

"As our Father and God begat us, sons and daughters, so will we rise immortal, males and females, and beget children, and, in our turn, form and create worlds, and send forth our spirit children to inherit those worlds, the same as we were sent here, and thus will the works of God continue, and not only God himself, and His Son Jesus Christ have the power of endless lives, but all of His redeemed offspring."

"...A man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fullness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings."

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:48

2001:

"They will receive everything our Father in Heaven has and will become like Him. They will even be able to have spirit children and make new worlds for them to live on, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done."

So you are redefining it... or at least using the "official" adjective to differentiate between the things THE CHURCH LEADERS tell their followers and the things that make them look like scientologists.

So you are redefining it... or at least using the "official" adjective to differentiate between the things THE CHURCH LEADERS tell their followers and the things that make them look like scientologists.

If the beliefs and speculations of all government officials automatically became law, we would inherit chaos.

If all meditations and speculations of church officials became official church doctrine, do you think a church would have homogeneity of tenets?

Yes, you can teach your own musings and theory at private get togethers. But doctine is taught in church. Try attending a Mormon chapel for six months, Wes. It's unlikely you'll hear any lessons or instructions about "ruling over planets".

If the beliefs and speculations of all government officials automatically became law

Doctrine does not equal law. This has nothing to do with beliefs and speculations of government officials... who, by the way, are elected by the governed and not chosen by divine inspiration.

doctrine:
a : something that is taught

law:
a: a binding custom or practice of a community : a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority

Just admit it, your church teaches some crazy ass sh#t and instructs followers to hide behind the shield of "official doctrine" when they get called out on it. It makes you and your clan of fellow funny underwear zombies look even more ridiculous when you pull this sh#t. At least scientologists have enough honor to defend their teachings.

As does all religion, especially one that has changed as much as the moron religion has in its brief history.

That sh#t was taught by the LEADERS of your church for Christ's sake. Not once, not twice... not mumbled over a cup of coffee or a beer... it was TAUGHT at Brigham Young University... by LEADERS of YOUR CHURCH.

And sure, I'll stop bashing morons in general... as soon as they own up to their DOCTRINE (teachings)...

...and stop sending 19 year old kids with the title "elder" to brainwash people.

Back to that stunningly bad attempt at Hip-Hop: was anyone else immediately reminded of the scene in Boogie Nights where Dirk Diggler, adrift in a haze of self-delusional hubris, actually beleives he can write songs and perform music?

My primary reaction is one of embarassment and mortification for that poor lost soul. Was that really Ivan Greene? Or a cruel troll? Holy mother of God, somebody who knows and cares for him should sit him down and deliver a serious reality check. Damn, son. CB4 without one whiff of that movie's delectable irony. It's gonna take a few hours of sonic cleansing -- maybe some Wipers, or Sleater-Kinney -- to disinfect my sense of hearing.

Just admit it, your church teaches some crazy ass sh#t and instructs followers to hide behind the shield of "official doctrine" when they get called out on it. It makes you and your clan of fellow funny underwear zombies look even more ridiculous when you pull this sh#t. At least scientologists have enough honor to defend their teachings.

Yes, the church agrees with you...that I'm honor challenged...

But in nearly three decades of attending LDS meetings, I've never heard Orson Pratt's planet ruling taught as verity or authentic. But you, with all your "honor" know better...

At least I'll be happy to know that part of my 10% I tithe is going to fight Gay Marriage legislation... millions and millions of dollars of it. Wahoo!

Mormons are cool. The church can eat a bag of dicks, a lot bigger bag of dicks than I am hoping Ivan Greene finds himself in front of. Because you see, that is what is important anyway. Perspective. Chipping boulders is shitty. Ignoring modern psychology and raising brainwashed children who think that being gay is something can be 'cured,' I dunno man that seems pretty bad.

Back to that stunningly bad attempt at Hip-Hop: was anyone else immediately reminded of the scene in Boogie Nights where Dirk Diggler, adrift in a haze of ssef-delusional hubris, actually beleives he can write songs and perform music?

My primary reaction is one of embarassment and mortification for that poor lost soul. Was that really Ivan Greene? Holy mother of God, somebody who knowas and cares for him should sit him down and deliver a serious reality check. Damn, son. CB4 without one whiff of that movie's delectable irony.

At least I'll be happy to know that part of my 10% I tithe is going to fight Gay Marriage legislation... millions and millions of dollars of it. Wahoo!

Damn dude. You tithe millions and yet you still work at a gear shop.. How about joining my church? the rules are easy. Tithe to me regularly. Climb often, and you will become leader of Venus when you die. Or whatever planet that you want. Even Earth. I can make it happen. Just send that tithe.

Back to that stunningly bad attempt at Hip-Hop: was anyone else immediately reminded of the scene in Boogie Nights where Dirk Diggler, adrift in a haze of ssef-delusional hubris, actually beleives he can write songs and perform music?

My primary reaction is one of embarassment and mortification for that poor lost soul. Was that really Ivan Greene? Holy mother of God, somebody who knowas and cares for him should sit him down and deliver a serious reality check. Damn, son. CB4 without one whiff of that movie's delectable irony.

Truth spoken here.

Well I suppose that may be "truth" if the guy is hoping to get a recording contract, but seems just as likely that he likes belting out some tunes and making funny videos, like 99% of the stuff put on YouTube.
I think you guys are taking this a little too seriously.
(And to my untrained ear, he doesn't sound too bad, actually pretty good by YouTube standards. He's probably the equivalent of a 5.10 "rasta" or whatever that stuff is).

But you don't. You qualify your statements, as if anyone gives a sh#t what titles your leaders choose to bestow on your various fairy tales.

You send your little 19 year old "elders" to teach that sh#t... and then deny that it is a teaching. It is absurd... but you know that... and have no problem with it... which is the only reason you can stomach 3 decades of ridiculous fairy tales and "brain" washing.

But you, with all your "honor" know better...

Honor has nothing to do with it.

Don, it has its pluses and negatives. Big plus is the women are hot... a negative is they don't even let you play with their boobs and literally turn into cows when they start popping out pups. Another plus is they are all at church on Sunday, so the crags are full of heathens.

No. This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the Church. This misunderstanding stems from speculative comments unreflective of scriptural doctrine. Mormons believe that we are all sons and daughters of God and that all of us have the potential to grow during and after this life to become like our Heavenly Father (see Romans 8:16-17). The Church does not and has never purported to fully understand the specifics of Christ’s statement that “in my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).

...but if I were a cynic...I suppose I would place confidence in those little paperback volumes the antis leave on my doorstep in the dark of night.

"But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right"

Pratt taught that at BYU. I know, not officially a church, but don't kid yourself... you know as well as I do...

... if they DO agree with Pratt where exactly have you heard them express these opinions?

I invited some missionaries in for coffee one morning. They didn't have any. I brought up visiting other planets and all the nice beings I met through my experimentation with astral projection and Shamanic journeys. They said something along the lines of "that's interesting! You know.. blah blah blah..." I then asked them "if LSD is so bad, why does God let you visit such nice beings while tripping?" They left shortly after.

Growing up SURROUNDED by morons I've heard it countless times. Scout camps. Dinner conversations. Death bed nonsense. From common folks as well as higher ups. I haven't read a single book about morons, other than TBOM itself. Why would I? You are worse than a mobster pretending they don't order hits.

I'd totally get a room with Jennie. I haven't had a 5 hour make out session with no touching for over 20 years. Immediate satisfaction from the gf is great... but, I like getting totally worked on projects I'll never send too. And from her profile pic I assume she hasn't had kids and is still under 200 lbs.

If Jennie says that the 'planet' thing is unrealistic, I'll take her word for it, sure I could debate it all day but I am not going to pretend like that is a divisive issue to me, lol. Like eternity in Heaven is some how less silly, or the idea that a Man lives up there who listens to every murmer... yeah. A planet would make some sense.

Besides, Mormons are just too damn nice to really argue with. I always feel like a dick afterwards, LOL.

Yes, many of them are. And yes, I sometimes feel shame for being a dick.

But then, most Germans are nice too and I will argue with them over Hitler's teachings (that's right, I went there!) if they try to brush them aside as "not official German doctrine, so they don't count."

I'm sure there are plenty of Brits who are as#@&%es, but I can't help chuckle every time they talk. If I hear "today 13 children were blown to bits by a suicide bomber" on US news, I'm sad... if I hear it on BBC, I can't help but expect to hear "and now for something completely different."

Point is... 3 more weeks and I won't be stuck in front of a computer anymore. Until then.

Growing up SURROUNDED by morons I've heard it countless times. Scout camps. Dinner conversations. Death bed nonsense. From common folks as well as higher ups. You are worse than a mobster pretending they don't order hits

Back to that stunningly bad attempt at Hip-Hop: was anyone else immediately reminded of the scene in Boogie Nights where Dirk Diggler, adrift in a haze of ssef-delusional hubris, actually beleives he can write songs and perform music?

I don't really care what those old fulks say, other than as a tax exempt group they should NOT influence politics... but still do.

I'm talking about "most members" who contemplate things like...

"what in this life prepares me to "rule over" a planet in material, temporal and spiritual dimensions?"

Or "are blacks really marked with the curse of Cain"

Or "are women really so inferior that they can't get into heaven without the help of a righteous man."

Those come from YOUR religion... official or not, I don't care.
Those were taught in YOUR religious institutions (BYU, etc)... official or not, I don't care.
Those were taught by YOUR religious leaders... official or not, I don't care.

They influence the attitudes and behaviors of YOUR fellow morons. The only good news is that the number of people who believe the "unofficial doctrine" is rapidly decreasing. Just today a good source has informed that is has gone from

10 seconds of listening to Ivan's video and I like him a lot more. Its not hip hop its reggae. Blows away 90% of the music vids people post here. White dude with a hairbag and shades singing an anti-war bob marley type tune. Looks like a totally different person than the guy in the boulder chipping video.

People mind other people's business when their own business isn't worth minding. It Tahoe is the taint of the Sierra's, then someone is the a-hole of Tahoe and the ballsack of this forum... obviously. Cut your job and get a hair. D

Good morning, Wes.
My elucidations seem to chafe you...instead, I offer you a passage from lds.com:

Addressing same-sex attraction
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints acknowledges that same-sex attraction is a sensitive issue which requires kindness, compassion, and understanding. The website “Love One Another: A Discussion on Same-Sex Attraction” strives to address, through interviews and videos from Church leaders and members, the issue of same-sex attraction as it relates to individuals and affected family members. The statements and stories emphasize the importance of Christ’s commandment to love one another and reaffirm the Church’s position.

The Church’s doctrinal position is clear: Sexual activity should only occur between a man and a woman who are married. However, that should never be used as justification for unkindness. Jesus Christ, whom we follow, was clear in His condemnation of sexual immorality, but never cruel. His interest was always to lift the individual, never to tear down.1
In short, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints affirms the centrality of doctrines relating to human sexuality and gender as well as the sanctity and significance of marriage as the union of a man and a woman.2 However, the Church firmly believes that all people are equally beloved children of God and deserve to be treated with love and respect. Church apostle Elder Quentin L. Cook stated, “As a church, nobody should be more loving and compassionate. Let us be at the forefront in terms of expressing love, compassion and outreach. Let’s not have families exclude or be disrespectful of those who choose a different lifestyle as a result of their feelings about their own gender.”3

The divine institution of marriage
The Church distinguishes between same-sex attraction and behavior. While maintaining that feelings and inclinations toward the same sex are not inherently sinful, engaging in homosexual behavior is in conflict with the “doctrinal principle, based on sacred scripture … that marriage between a man and a woman is essential to the Creator's plan for the eternal destiny of His children.”4

Because the Church believes that the sacred powers of procreation are “to be exercised only between a man and a woman lawfully wedded as husband and wife … any other sexual relations, including those between persons of the same gender, undermine the divinely created institution of the family.” Accordingly, the Church favors measures that define marriage as the union of a man and a woman. However, “protecting marriage between a man and a woman does not remove Church members’ Christian obligations of love, kindness and humanity toward all people.”5

Individual rights
The Church’s affirmation of marriage as being between a man and a woman “neither constitutes nor condones any kind of hostility toward gays and lesbians.”6 On the contrary, many Church leaders have spoken clearly about the love and respect with which all people are to be treated. Former Church president Gordon B. Hinckley (1910-2008) told members who are attracted to the same sex: “Our hearts reach out to [you]. We remember you before the Lord, we sympathize with you, we regard you as our brothers and sisters.” President Boyd K. Packer affirmed, “We do not reject you. … We cannot reject you. … We will not reject you, because we love you.”
The Church has advocated for rights for same-sex couples regarding “hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights, so long as these do not infringe on the integrity of the traditional family or the constitutional rights of churches.”7 In Salt Lake City, for example, the Church supported ordinances aimed at protecting gay residents from discrimination in housing and employment. 8

Gospel of love
The gospel of Jesus Christ is based on love, respect and agency. Mormons believe that all humans have inherited strengths, weaknesses, challenges and blessings and are invited to live, through the help and grace of God, the principles revealed by Jesus Christ. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints maintains that “God’s universal fatherhood and love charges each of us with an innate and reverent acknowledgment of our shared human dignity. We are to love one another. We are to treat each other with respect as brothers and sisters and fellow children of God, no matter how much we may differ from one another.”9

So u guys mean to tell me there is some people out there who think we get to choose sexual orientation?

Now that is some seriously scary sh#t, I'd be really scared if the people who believe this also believe that a woman has no right to choose if she should deliver a child that was conceived against her will. What would also be really scary is if these same folks also felt so threatened by progressive thinking that they didn't even believe in evolution. Now that would be some scary stuff, a world without science?? Who in their right mind would believe such a thing.

Well, phew- good thing this is the Internet & none of that is real eh?

You gotta admit, it's pretty entertaining to have a whole enormous group of people say that some people "choose" a lifestyle that makes their life particularly difficult in many ways, and that the "choice" to be gay makes them unworthy of both Heaven and of various social enterprises...

And yet, the same group thinks Gawd left them some gold tablets in a NY hillside a couple hundred yrs ago, which nobody else on the planet is hip to.

You gotta admit, it's pretty entertaining to have a whole enormous group of people say that some people "choose" a lifestyle that makes their life particularly difficult in many ways, and that the "choice" to be gay makes them unworthy of both Heaven and of various social enterprises...

And yet, the same group thinks Gawd left them some gold tablets in a NY hillside a couple hundred yrs ago, which nobody else on the planet is hip to.

...

...

(seriously)

...

Do people choose to be alcoholics, or drug addicts, out outlaw bikers, or aid climbers, or lots of other dumb things that "that makes their life particularly difficult in many ways"?
I'm for gay rights, but I think some of you are letting your political leanings cloud your reasoning skills.

Blahblah wrote - "Do people choose to be alcoholics, or drug addicts, out outlaw bikers, or aid climbers, or lots of other dumb things that "that makes their life particularly difficult in many ways"?

Do they actually choose or is it in their make-up to pursue such behavior? Addiction has causes separate from choice. Genetics plays a role. I doubt addicts actually choose this outcome. I took lots of drugs and never got addicted, some of my friends weren't as fortunate.
Risky activities (i.e. outlaw biking, aid climbing) are for risk takers. Could it be otherwise? Could you right now choose to rob a bank or randomly kill someone without being in some way predisposed? Could you choose to be gay? Choice it seems is not so clear cut. We are who we are. It shouldn't matter in the end. Do what you like (without hurting others of course).

we're idiots and deserve no respect for believing choices are important.

Just when I start thinking you are smart, you pull stuff like this. I commuted 1hr to and from work (in Provo) with a guy who was gay. He asked me "have you ever considered sucking a c*#k?" I said "aw, hell no... dude... wtf?" He said "that is EXACTLY how I feel when people tell me being gay is a CHOICE! It makes me physically sick."

In the LDS church, is Jesus depicted as a swarthy, sun-burnt, dirty desert dweller, all hook-nosed and wild-eyed, or a strapping, blond haired blue eyed Aryan with the smug self-confidence of a corporate CEO?

Well I haven't been looking at this site much of late, but I did just (finally) meet Crimpie and BrassNuts, out in Boulder a couple weeks ago, and she was telling me the general air of the forum has deteriorated. If the way people are talking to Jennie is an indication of the average vibe, I won't miss it here.

To be clear, I am no saint, and I can lay it on pretty good if I feel like it. I also have no problem making fun of someone's deeply held religious beliefs (obviously), but turning that into some sexually disrespectful or outright sexually offensive post? Not into it.

I don't respect people who type things they would not say face to face, that's just chickenshit Jr High School crap in my book. Life is to short to even associate with people like that.

Let me give you all some advice and perspective that has really worked well for me in my life: Don't associate with people who do not improve the quality of your life. Period. Seek out people in your life who make your life and your experiences positive, then be honest and generous and kind to them, and watch your life blossom.

I just stumbled into this discussion, thinking it might be about chipping, and find a couple of guys abusing Jennie???

Think about what you're saying before you post such things. It is adolescent and inappropriate here. I recognize you have a point, Wes, but couching it in the form of a personal attack upon Jennie is simply disgusting.

I recognize that Jennie is quite capable of standing up for herself but your behavior has really brought the tenor of this place below a level I want to visit.

I didn't direct any comments to Jennie, and I respect her standing for her beliefs in a hostile environment.

Mormoism is crazy, but so christianity with virgin birth. Anology to chipping: chirstianity is one or two chipped holds and mormonism is the whole route, but they are both chipping.. just a matter of scale.

Bill Maher thinks christianity will be absorbed into mormonism in America because americans are inherently narcissistic. So, a religion that re-writes the bible to have christ in american is perfect.

I like the Mormons way more than evangelical christians. Mormons I know are pleasant and non-confrontational. Maybe the holy underwear keeps them calm?

They are both on the wrong side of history on civil rights and now gay rights. But, the whole rebulican party is dying a slow death like an elephant stuck in the mud.

all the pompous, in-your-face atheists are every bit as annoying as religious zealots. we can thank that self-important tw#t dawkins for that. i've been an atheist all my life and i absolutely can't the tone of any of dawkins books or any of his smug little devotees. google "faces of atheism" for a laugh.

Maybe there's a god maybe there isn't. I just don't know. What I want to know is WTF is up with Dr Pepper?

I don't know what is up with Dr. P, but Dawkins (and others) have a pretty good response to the "maybe there's a god maybe there isn't" view.

He uses as an example of the possibility that there is a perfectly formed china teapot orbiting the sun in the asteroid belt.
You can't prove that there is not such a teapot.
So it is equally likely that there is or there isn't, and is it reasonable to consider that there may well be since we can't prove it one way or the other?

In the LDS church, is Jesus depicted as a swarthy, sun-burnt, dirty desert dweller, all hook-nosed and wild-eyed, or a strapping, blond haired blue eyed Aryan with the smug self-confidence of a corporate CEO?

The following paintings of Christ are the portraits most commonly seen in LDS houses of worship.

I paint ...but my sense of hue fails to discern blue eyes or blonde hair in magnified images of any of the three. Does yours?

At best, the Parsons painting depicts auburn hair with hazel eyes...palpably a nordic man. Christian artists around the world have a tendency toward painting Christ in their own racial/ethnic context. There is a story circulating that an LDS Prophet told someone that the Parsons painting was the closest tangible depiction of Christ. Not the case, the LDS church doesn't declare any painting as the literal visage of Christ.

When the Parsons painting was commisioned the artist was given largely free reign...but the church cirriculum commitee did ask for more color and light contrasts to attract the eye from afar.

This is the mormon Jesus that watches over me when....Doesn't look like any of the desert wanderers I've ever met.

If your family commisioned a painting to remember their beloved Wes...

...would they want a portrait of the groomed and handsome Weston about to deliver his valedictary address...or the dusty, thirst crazed Wes returning from the Savage Mountain by way of the Arabian Desert ??

Perhaps...it might be well to remember the tribe of Judah were not related (closely) to the Phillistines and rarely intermarried with the other tribes or Israel or Arabs in the area for hundreds of years.

I see a chipped Gospel here: "Gospel of love The gospel of Jesus Christ is based on love, respect and agency. Mormons believe that all humans have inherited strengths, weaknesses, challenges and blessings and are invited to live, through the help and grace of God, the principles revealed by Jesus Christ. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints maintains that “God’s universal fatherhood and love charges each of us with an innate and reverent acknowledgment of our shared human dignity. We are to love one another. We are to treat each other with respect as brothers and sisters and fellow children of God, no matter how much we may differ from one another.”9"

I am sorry to bring this up, but I noticed the post above. Frankly I would much rather respond to this post below: [I have not been here in awhile.]

“Let me give you all some advice and perspective that has really worked well for me in my life: Don't associate with people who do not improve the quality of your life. Period. Seek out people in your life who make your life and your experiences positive, then be honest and generous and kind to them, and watch your life blossom. Adios motherf*#kers!”

I disagree, I find that it is the people who I disagree with the most to whom I may in fact learn the most from, my best friend in an atheist, and I think he is a genius, most of the time. In other words, if you seek out people who agree with you all the time, you are not going to grow much in life. Isn’t that why we climb these walls? True … true?

But to get back to this first and unfortunate post I quote, that’s not the good news at all, in fact it is bad news and it is not the Gospel. This “The gospel of Jesus Christ is based on love” has to do with mens WORKS and NOT SALVATION at all. That’s NOT good news but WORK and something someone made up in their head, it does not come from the Bible. This WORKS Doctrine is typical of *Mormons*[1.], Jehovah Witnesses, Pseudo Christianity, and every other false religion, in fact every other religion on the face of the earth.

Here, I’ll prove it. Mark 12 “Which is the first commandment of all? 29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength: this is the first commandment. 31And the second is like, namely this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is none other commandment greater than these.”

OK, so what are we talking about here? The LAW. But the law is not the Gospel, Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. … for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continues not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them” (Gal. 3:10).

The reason that all who are of the works of the law are under the curse is that “by the law is the knowledge of sin” (Rom. 3:20).

OK, so the Gospel is not love, that’s work, work work and more work till you fail and wind up in Hell. We are saved by faith in Christ AND FAITH IN HIS WORK. That is the reason why faith in Christ saves and faith in YOUR WORKS DO NOT SAVE.

The Gospel posted above is only something that will keep you working all the way till you fall off the end of this world into the pits of Hell. Don’t believe that stupid lie.

The true Gospel is, and now I will define it in my own words: trust in Jesus, and nothing more. If you cannot trust him, then you should. It is that simple. No need to write anything more.

Romans 4:5 “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

ACTS 13:39 “And by Him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses” [very easy] [Trust in Jesus]

It is only AFTER you put your faith in Christ that your works [Love of God and man, 1st and 2nd commandment] count for something, but these good works you do can NEVER ever save you from Hell.

Oh, ... and concerning one more mistake you make. Jesus was not white, He was a black man, as depicted in early Christian art.

Notes:

[1.] Book of Mormon, Moroni 10:32-33 Yea, acome unto Christ, and be bperfected in him, and cdeny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and dlove God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be eperfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye asanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the bblood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your csins, that ye become dholy, without spot.

[1.] Book of Mormon, Alma 11:37 37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their asins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that bno unclean thing can inherit the ckingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.

[1.] Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

If your family commisioned a painting to remember their beloved Wes...

...would they want a portrait of the groomed and handsome Weston about to deliver his valedictary address...or the dusty, thirst crazed Wes returning from the Savage Mountain by way of the Arabian Desert

I suspect they will opt for the pre-Cure goth child of the 70's.

or the desert wanderer/climber indulging in the sins of the modern day Babylon that is Vegas.

it might be well to remember the tribe of Judah were not related (closely) to the Phillistines and rarely intermarried with the other tribes or Israel or Arabs in the area for hundreds of years.

Yes, Judaism has been xenophobic from the start. Which explains why the vast majority if religious wars have been fought by one, or several, of the nasty flavors it has spawned. It is a shame they didn't listen to Jesus when he tried to set them straight.

What spineless pussies would hide out in the bushes to film a guy who is just out doing what he loves, getting dirty, not hurting anyone? Oh wait it's the same non contributing narg gobblers who will undoubtedly show up after the crag has been developed, the rocks have been scrubbed off, the trails built, the landings fluffed and the guide books written, copied, downloaded as free torrents and distributed to all their clueless, complaining, preachy, fully entitled friends for free. "Gawd, who's the lewsor that built this trail anyway? I can't even fit through here with my Mondo Ego Grande Ass crash pad."

To answer the question below...all the rest of us (except for the camera part). Duh. It's the human condition. Or we can call it "The Little Red Hen" story.

"What spineless pussies would hide out in the bushes to film a guy who is just out doing what he loves, getting dirty, not hurting anyone? Oh wait it's the same non contributing narg gobblers who will undoubtedly show up after the crag has been developed, the rocks have been scrubbed off, the trails built, the landings fluffed and the guide books written, copied, downloaded as free torrents and distributed to all their clueless, complaining, preachy, fully entitled friends for free. "Gawd, who's the lewsor that built this trail anyway? I can't even fit through here with my Mondo Ego Grande Ass crash pad."

The Lil Red Hen story for the uninformed.

"The Little Red Hen is an old folk tale, most likely of Russian origin. The best known version in the United States is that popularized by Little Golden Books, a series of children's books published for the mass market since the 1940s. The story is applied in teaching children the virtues of the work ethic and personal initiative. It is so well known that it is frequently rewritten by pundits and bloggers to illustrate their favorite points."

"Plot summary

In the tale, The Little Red Hen finds a grain of wheat, and asks for help from the other farmyard animals to plant it. But no animal will volunteer to help her.

At each further stage (harvest, threshing, milling the wheat into flour, and baking the flour into bread), the hen again asks for help from the other animals, but again she gets no assistance.

Finally, the hen has completed her task, and asks who will help her eat the bread. This time, all the previous non-participants eagerly volunteer. However, she declines their help, stating that no one aided her in the preparation work, and eats it with her chicks, leaving none for anyone else.

The moral of this story is that those who show no willingness to contribute to an end product do not deserve to enjoy the end product: "if any man will not work, never let him eat."[1]