(CNN) - It was a goal-line stand in the fourth quarter that sealed the University of Notre Dame football team's Saturday victory over the University of Southern California – and earned the No. 1-ranked team a trip to the national championship game.

Leading the bruising Fighting Irish defense was senior linebacker Manti Te'o, whose play this season has earned him consideration for the Heisman Trophy and has helped lead a storied squad back to the top of college football after years of floundering.

But Te'o initially struggled with the decision over whether to attend Notre Dame. The Catholic school's star linebacker is a committed Mormon.

Te'o gave voice to that struggle in his announcement in 2009 that he'd attend the Indiana college, which was broadcast live on ESPN. “I’ve prayed hard about it and my family has thought hard and long about it," he said.

Graduating from Punahou High School in Hawaii, Te'o had his choice of the best football programs in the country. His Mormon faith was a serious factor in the decision-making process, said his former high school coach, Kale Ane.

"A lot of that weighed on him," Ane, who coached Te'o for three years, told CNN. "The final weight was getting his message out on a broader scale. A Mormon at a Catholic school was a good way to say, 'You can keep your faith no matter where you go.' "

The University of Notre Dame's undergraduates are 83% Catholic, according to the admissions department.

"It hasn’t been an issue," said Notre Dame Athletics spokesman John Heisler, speaking of Te'o's membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. "I think there was more an issue when he was being recruited to him having access to his religion in South Bend and here on campus."

“The emphasis here is that this is a place of faith and it really doesn’t matter what your faith is,” Heisler told CNN, noting that he himself is not Catholic. “Faith is really important to people here. Whether you’re a Catholic or a Mormon, it’s a place of great faith.”

Indeed, three other Notre Dame players are also Mormon, according to the local Mormon bishop.

Manti Te'o urges the crowd to cheer at the University of Notre Dame.

Notre Dame was founded by Edward F. Sorin, a priest of the Congregation of Holy Cross, in 1842. That Catholic ethos extends to the football team to this day.

A mural of Jesus with raised arms on the side of the college's library faces the football field and has been dubbed "Touchdown Jesus." Football fans visit the campus replica of France's Grotto of Our Lady of Lourdes to light candles for the team before every game.

On Saturdays before home games, the football team is led in a Mass by Father Paul Doyle, 69, a 1965 graduate of the university. Another Catholic priest from the university travels with the team for away games.

"We have Mass in the big church on campus, in the Basilica," said Doyle, who has been the team chaplain for a decade. "I say the Mass, then the team gets something to eat. I’m with them throughout the game. When they come into the locker room after their warm-up, I'm standing there giving them a blessing."

Just before the team takes the field for the game, Doyle leads them in the Lord's Prayer.

"We used to say the Hail Mary in the locker room, but more than half of our players aren’t Catholic," Doyle said. " It’s odd for the non-Catholics to pray a specifically Catholic prayer."

Doyle said the team switched to the more ecumenical Lord's Prayer after then-Coach Bob Davie asked him to make the change nearly 10 years ago. The prayer is used in virtually every Christian tradition, though the LDS church does not routinely use it in worship.

Doyle is also a chaplain in the residence hall where Te'o has lived for three years. At one point, they lived across the hall from one another.

“Manti tells everybody he has found it helpful to not have to worry about telling people he’s a God-fearing person. People take that for granted around here,” Doyle said.

“Manti is a very religious guy. He seeks out his Mormon congregation and attends off-campus faithfully,” Doyle said.

Te'o has been a member of the local Notre Dame Ward – the Mormons' rough equivalent of a Catholic parish – in Mishawaka, Indiana, for four years, according to ward Bishop Jim Carrier. The five counties in and around South Bend, Indiana, are home to about 2,000 Latter-day Saints, Carrier said.

A common practice in the LDS Church, which has no professional clergy, is having members give testimonies during Sunday worship services.

"I asked (Te'o) to talk about what influenced him to come to Notre Dame and how he used prayer in prompting him to make that decision," Carrier said.

Carrier said Te'o spoke about leaning toward attending the University of Southern California. But as he prayed about his decision, coaches from Notre Dame called to check in. “He said he just felt an overwhelming feeling it was where he needed to go," Carrier said. "He said, 'It was an answer to prayer for me.'"

Te'o's faith has spurred speculation about whether he will serve on a two-year Mormon mission, as the church encourages male members between 18 and 25 to do.

Carrier said that Te'o has decided to forgo his mission, a move not uncommon among the growing ranks of high-profile Mormon athletes.

"Young men are encouraged to serve as missionaries if they are able," said LDS church spokesman Michael Purdy. "However, each individual must decide whether or not to serve a full-time mission.”

Former Brigham Young University quarterback Steve Young opted not to participate in a Mormon mission. Instead he jumped to the NFL, eventually leading the San Francisco 49ers to a Super Bowl victory and earning a place in football's Hall of Fame.

“It’s a tough position to be in," said Ane, Te'o's high school coach. "I think he has such a small window to compete and get his message out. I think (Te'o's) thinking he wants to do as much as he can in this mission as opposed to a mission in another country.”

Carrier said Te'o's decision to skip a mission was a difficult one.

"He felt like he could do more staying playing football than going out and serving a mission," the bishop said.“He understands his role and the pressure put on him of being such a good role model, and he understands that’s part of his responsibility.”

Te'o has been vocal about the role his faith plays in his life and how he leaned on it earlier this year after both his grandmother and girlfriend died in the span of less than two days during football season. His girlfriend died after battling leukemia. Te'o stayed with the team throughout the ordeal, playing one of the best games of his career the following Saturday.

"Four years ago I made the decision to come here and I didn't really know why," Te'o told a pep rally before that game. "It's times like these I know why. I love each and every one of you, and I can't thank you enough."

"I know one thing for sure – I will see them again," he said of his grandmother and girlfriend after their deaths. "I have faith and have peace knowing I will spend the rest of life after this with the people whom I love."

The lines spoke to the Mormon emphasis on families that are bonded for eternity. But then Te'o returned to a mode more familiar to Notre Dame. "I love you guys," he told the crowd. "Go Irish!"

soundoff(276 Responses)

mm

I am always saddened to see hatred coming from the left and the right regarding Mormons. They are a nice people. I went to school with many of them and found them to be very loyal friends. The left hates them becuase they are usually very"conservative" while the right hates them because they are not "true Christians." Well, the two wings should get over it because Mormonism is growing. And guess which goup possesses the largest growth in Mormonism conversion? Yup...Hispanics.

November 28, 2012 at 11:08 am |

Nietodarwin

Of course they are nice, BODIES AND MONIES STRENGTHEN THE CULT. That church is a VERY RICH and VERY POWERFUL corporation. Thank your american stars they didn't get the White House, (they've dreamed of it since 1830 when they started the cult/corporation, and they WILL try again.) As far as the Hispanic thing, that's demographics, they are the fastest growing group of evangelicals (Talibangelicals) too. We are NOT a christian nation, or a mormon nation. We are a SECULAR nation. "Under god" in the pledge and "In god We Trust" on money were not added until the 1950's, (the decade Romney tried to take us back to.) Freedom OF religion means freedom FROM religion, and we NONES are going to make sure the rest of you remember it.

November 28, 2012 at 11:22 am |

pt

Um.. Fastest Growing? According to whose count? I would not pride myself or religion on a number that'ss based off of a count of baptizing dead people from the past as "members" (i.e. Holocost Jews?) and those that pass away from within the church as "members."

This church, like many others are a sham. They do not practice the Christianity found in the Bible.

November 28, 2012 at 11:38 am |

In God is our Trust

In God is our Trust is in the third verse of the Star Spangled Banner and that was written in 1814. Just something to consider. Just because we don't often sing the other verses does not mean they don't exist.

November 28, 2012 at 11:39 am |

Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

And guess which goup possesses the largest growth in Mormonism conversion? Yup...Hispanics.
.
Yes but lets not be misleading shall we....it is coming from the mass missions in Central America. There are more Mormons outside of the US vs in the US. The are simply doing what the Catholics did. Ignorant hungry tribal people are easy pickens.

November 28, 2012 at 1:03 pm |

Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

In God is our Trust

In God is our Trust is in the third verse of the Star Spangled Banner and that was written in 1814. Just something to consider. Just because we don't often sing the other verses does not mean they don't exist.
.
And slavery was allowed.......ignorance shouldnt be tolerated...removal of slavery was good and removal of religion from our government is good

November 28, 2012 at 1:05 pm |

In God is our Trust

@Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT
I was simply pointing out to Nietodarwin that while those may not have been on our money or in the Pledge, it has still been our motto for a very long time. His argument that we are a secular nation and always were doesn't hold up when you really look at history. Here is the exact quote: "And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."

Personally I don't want us to have a national religion. I think everyone is welcome here, including atheists. That's what makes this country great. That also doesn't mean we need to change things because someone feels like crying about it.

November 28, 2012 at 3:30 pm |

Huebert

In GOd

Our national motto is e pluibus unum.

November 28, 2012 at 3:40 pm |

Jacko

Reminds me of a story a buddy told me about playing football in high school. When Detroit Catholic Central High School was still in the city of Detroit (back in the early 70s before it moved to Redford, MI and then on to it's current location in Novi, MI), he claimed to be the only Catholic in an otherwise all Baptist backfield. As it was, is, and always will be with Catholic schools as a rule; It's not about religion, it's not about ethnicity, it's not about politics...it's about a winning football team!

November 28, 2012 at 11:05 am |

History Bear

Why in the heck does his religion matter. He's a talented athlete with a sense of purpose and if his freaky religion doesn't interfer and send him on a "mission" he'll do well in the NFL. Reminds me of a young Urlacker. GO ND.

November 28, 2012 at 11:01 am |

Mattie

Interesting how a Catholic school allows other believers to attend. Conflict of interest in religion? Hypocritical college more like it.

November 28, 2012 at 10:58 am |

Mattie

Of course, if they let anyone go to their school, then they can start winning national championships again. Interesting..

November 28, 2012 at 10:59 am |

History Bear

Your bigotry is showing. Notre Dame provides first rate education and has always encouraged diversity unlike Bring 'em Young and Bob Jones and other religious schools. BYU didn't even look to diversify until it got tired of non-white athletes kicking it's behind in sports.

November 28, 2012 at 11:03 am |

scifigal2k

Oh please, have you looked at the stats for BYU-Hawaii? Not very many whites there, and it's been that way since the school opened.

November 28, 2012 at 11:26 am |

Jparkerfan

We'll take all of the top athletes regardless of color as long as they can handle living the honor code. Reading this stuff me thinks a lot of people are jealous of the LDS church. They should be. I'll bet the leaders are not sad that Romney lost. Just look at the hate and bigotry that surfaced towards him when he was just a candidate.

November 28, 2012 at 7:00 pm |

Dragunz

The problem with religion, or Atheism is not the belief, or the religion itself. It will always be those that practice it. Atheists have no religion, but their belief seems to be to rant against all religion. Instead of being open minded and accepting of what others wish to believe they take it on as their right to tell these people how wrong they are. How stupid they must be to believe in an imaginary God. Christians and others of faith don't take the high road here. They rant on about how much holier they are than thou...and how their soles are saved blah blah blah. Again.....all people believe in something, even if it is their choice to believe in nothing, its still a belief. You need to get over yourselves and live your life to better something or someone. Only then will you fine true happiness. Not a sermon, just a fact!!!

November 28, 2012 at 10:01 am |

tony

Put God first in everything you do.

November 28, 2012 at 10:19 am |

robert

I am atheist and the only thing that annoys me is when religious people force their belief on me or my family. I don't force mine onto others and believe I deserve the same respect. we can all live in this country without irritating the crap out of each other.

November 28, 2012 at 10:21 am |

Jeff

Agreed. I dislike the atheists that don't get the fact you don't care how much they hate religion and they need to just shut up as much as the religious folks that don't get that their preaching is not going to convert you, and they also just need to shut up.

Trying to convert me into believing there is no God is just as annoying and a waste of time as trying to get me to believe your God is correct. If everyone would just shut up, live how they wished and stopped trying to impose their beliefs on others, the world would be far better off.

November 28, 2012 at 10:26 am |

Nietodarwin

Robert is correct. Atheists don't care if people want to "use" religion. (I googled and read an article called "Religion as addiction" yesterday, so I phrase it that way. Freedom OF religion also means freedom FROM religion, and we formerly docile atheists are SICK of having these religious delusions thrown in our faces, adversely affecting our government policy and our society, and preying upon children who are too young to make up their minds about such matters. (Religion is also THE greatest impediment to scientific advancement of all kinds, and in providing HEALTH CARE to the people it claims to care for SO much. Xstians spouting off their beliefs is like vomiting at the table when people are eating. Just SHUT UP AND PRACTICE YOUR "FAITH" OUT OF SITE AND EARSHOT.

November 28, 2012 at 10:57 am |

Nietodarwin

I think that article on atheists feeling more free to show their lack of belief because of the internet is correct. This is because the internet allows us to do so without fear of being harassed or even murdered by christian zealots. You wrote "Christians and others of faith don't take the high road here" but I disagree. Others of different faiths DO take the high road, it's christians and muslims that cause the most trouble. Jews don't go around preaching to everyone, they keep it to themselves and indoors where religion belongs. (They have a MUCH better sense of humor too.) I think all religion is something humans evolved with, but is not beneficial to our survival. (Not every trait that a species evolves with is beneficial, see the dodo bird)
We atheists are now going to be able to speak with reason without the fear of death that has logically accompanied our lack of faith for centuries.

November 28, 2012 at 11:07 am |

TampaMel

Are Mormons the only non-Catholics at Notre Dame? According to the article 83% are Catholic. In the other 17% how many believe in God but do not follow any religion (like me) and how many are plain atheist (there is a difference). It is not necessarily faith that brings one to a particular university. In fact I will wager that the number of people who decide to go to a particular university where the primary reason is based on religious faith is so small as to be statistically irrelevant.

November 28, 2012 at 9:49 am |

Defense Motha

You are alone bro.

November 28, 2012 at 9:57 am |

Jeff

Engineering universities? I'll say you are probably more right than you can imagine.

Public universities? You are probably correct. Granted, they are by public nature not geared towards any one particular religion.

Private universities, especially schools like Notre Dame and Brigham Young? No way. Religion plays a HUGE role in many decisions, much more than anything that can be considered statistical insignificance.

November 28, 2012 at 10:32 am |

Binder Dundat

ooh ooh a Mormon in the news. Let's run him for President. Oh, wait....

November 28, 2012 at 7:51 am |

Marcus

Get a life, politard. It's over already.

November 28, 2012 at 10:59 am |

I pity you

@apple bush
@lionly

I feel bad for both of you. Your lives must be rather meaningless if you sit here EVERYDAY and post drivel that is incoherent and you guys take shots at each other back and forth.

The best part is that you guys are ore alike than different, even if one of your is Christian and the other an atheist. Lmao at you people. How about you go do something to better your community?

Thank you AB for redirecting my conscience toward a much better thing to do! I got to head for Best Buy and get me Microsoft Word 2010 so I can write me a story to post at wordpress. I go to a site where one can become an avatar and build things such as buildings and roads and mountains and lakes and rivers etc etc. The site is,,,

http://www.activeworlds.com

There are oodles of worlds where one can visit and some of them one can build at. No money is needed for you can be a tourist and just mosey around the worlds or for less than $10.oo a month become a citizen and then one can build at many worlds! I must have 50 square virtual miles of stuff I built over the year being there! I have some places I could use and take pictures to add to my story that I am now just beginning to write!

Again Apple Bush, thank you for giving me my sight back and on track once again!

November 28, 2012 at 12:06 am |

Apple Bush

Mr. Lamb, I will take that at face value and say you are welcome. I have always liked YOU, just not your posts. SecondLife.com is fun too. See you tomorrow you crazy old fuck!

Mormon linebacker helps lead Catholic Notre Dame to national championship game
or
A member of one christian cult helps lead a different christian cult's school football team to national championship game

November 27, 2012 at 11:32 pm |

Burps

And you belong to the biggest cult of all. The anti-religion cult.

November 28, 2012 at 9:54 am |

MormonChristian

A cult member is someone who ignorantly follows his own beliefs – or non beliefs without opening up to the world around him, fails to take in all the good that is out there and doesn't learn all he can, while helping others along the way. In other words, a shut-in who knows very little and cares to know very little.

In other words, you can have cult behavior regardless of the organizations you subscribe to...

Manti is obviously not a cult member.

November 28, 2012 at 10:14 am |

fkatheists

Neither are cults. Therefore you cannot compare one to another as a cult. You however, belong to the biggest cult of all: The cult of Secular, humanistic, atheistic thinking propogated and subjected to you daily by the Christian-hating mass media. Remember two of the tenants of communism: Destory religion, control media. You are so stupid that you probably cannot even comprehend what I'm saying.

November 28, 2012 at 11:40 am |

Reality

Putting the kibosh on all religions in less than ten seconds: Priceless!!!

• As far as one knows or can tell, there was no Abraham i.e. the foundations of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are non-existent.

• As far as one knows or can tell, there was no Moses i.e the pillars of Judaism, Christianity and Islam have no strength of purpose.

• There was no Gabriel i.e. Islam fails as a religion. Christianity partially fails.

• There was no Easter i.e. Christianity completely fails as a religion.

• There was no Moroni i.e. Mormonism is nothing more than a business cult.

A quick search will put the kibosh on any other groups calling themselves a religion.

November 27, 2012 at 11:22 pm |

Apple Bush

Hi Reality, what do you do for a living and what are your hobbies?

November 27, 2012 at 11:25 pm |

Brian

As far as one knows or can tell, your 100th great grandparents never existed, therefore, you don't exist!

November 27, 2012 at 11:59 pm |

Roger that

'As far as one knows or can tell, your 100th great grandparents never existed, therefore, you don't exist!'

So you're saying that Reality could be a god? Cool...

November 28, 2012 at 12:35 am |

Reality

Added details as requested:

AND THE INFAMOUS ANGELIC CONS CONTINUE TO WREAK STUPIDITY UPON THE WORLD

Joe Smith had his Moroni. (As does M. Romney)

"Latter-day Saints like M. Romney also believe that Michael the Archangel was Adam (the first man) when he was mortal, and Gabriel lived on the earth as Noah."

Jehovah Witnesses have their Jesus /Michael the archangel, the first angelic being created by God;

Mohammed had his Gabriel (this "tin-kerbell" got around).

Jesus and his family had/has Michael, Gabriel, and Satan, the latter being a modern day demon of the demented. (As does BO and his family)(As do Biden and Ryan)

The Abraham-Moses myths had their Angel of Death and other "no-namers" to do their dirty work or other assorted duties.

Contemporary biblical and religious scholars have relegated these "pretty wingie/horn-blowing thingies" to the myth pile. We should do the same to include deleting all references to them in our religious operating manuals. Doing this will eliminate the prophet/profit/prophecy status of these founders and put them where they belong as simple humans just like the rest of us.

Some added references to "tink-erbells".

newadvent.org/cathen/07049c.htm

"The belief in guardian angels can be traced throughout all antiquity; pagans, like Menander and Plutarch (cf. Euseb., "Praep. Evang.", xii), and Neo-Platonists, like Plotinus, held it. It was also the belief of the Babylonians and As-syrians, as their monuments testify, for a figure of a guardian angel now in the British Museum once decorated an As-syrian palace, and might well serve for a modern representation; while Nabopolassar, father of Nebuchadnezzar the Great, says: "He (Marduk) sent a tutelary deity (cherub) of grace to go at my side; in everything that I did, he made my work to succeed."
Catholic monks and Dark Age theologians also did their share of hallu-cinating:

"TUBUAS-A member of the group of angels who were removed from the ranks of officially recognized celestial hierarchy in 745 by a council in Rome under Pope Zachary. He was joined by Uriel, Adimus, Sabaoth, Simiel, and Raguel."

And tin-ker- bells go way, way back:

"In Zoroastrianism there are different angel like creatures. For example each person has a guardian angel called Fravashi. They patronize human being and other creatures and also manifest god’s energy. Also, the Amesha Spentas have often been regarded as angels, but they don't convey messages, but are rather emanations of Ahura Mazda ("Wise Lord", God); they appear in an abstract fashion in the religious thought of Zarathustra and then later (during the Achaemenid period of Zoroastrianism) became personalized, associated with an aspect of the divine creation (fire, plants, water...)."

"The beginnings of the biblical belief in angels must be sought in very early folklore. The gods of the Hitti-tes and Canaanites had their supernatural messengers, and parallels to the Old Testament stories of angels are found in Near Eastern literature. "

"The 'Magic Papyri' contain many spells to secure just such help and protection of angels. From magic traditions arose the concept of the guardian angel. "

For added information see the review at:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel

November 28, 2012 at 7:34 am |

Mike

Wow, that was such an underwhelming proof of... whatever. You need to do more than just copy and paste off the internet. You obviously have no comprehension of what you are talking about. or you do not care to understand apart from your preconceived notions.

November 28, 2012 at 9:42 am |

Jeff

So I just have to ask: why do people like you spend so much time trying to debunk religion? I'm not religious, and I have far better things to do with my day than try to tell others what to believe.

November 28, 2012 at 10:35 am |

LinSea

@Apple Bush, Reality's hobby is cutting and pasting the same message over and over and over....yawn.

November 28, 2012 at 12:44 pm |

Reality

As good students, you have read the reiterations of the "fems" (flaws, errors, muck and stench ) of religion. Therefore the seeds have been planted in rich soil. Go therefore and preach the truth to all nations, reiterating as you go amongst the lost, bred, born and brainwashed souls of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism as Rational Thinking makes its triumphant return all because of you!!!!

The previous reiterations are summaries of the conclusions of many contemporary NT scholars and the references they used in making their conclusions.

Some examples for your possible perusal:

o 1. Historical Jesus Theories, earlychristianwritings.com/theories.htm – the names of many of the contemporary historical Jesus scholars and the ti-tles of their over 100 books on the subject.
o
2. Early Christian Writings, earlychristianwritings.com/
– a list of early Christian doc-uments to include the year of publication–

3. Historical Jesus Studies, faithfutures.org/HJstudies.html,
– "an extensive and constantly expanding literature on historical research into the person and cultural context of Jesus of Nazareth"
4. Jesus Database, faithfutures.org/JDB/intro.html–"The JESUS DATABASE is an online annotated inventory of the traditions concerning the life and teachings of Jesus that have survived from the first three centuries of the Common Era. It includes both canonical and extra-canonical materials, and is not limited to the traditions found within the Christian New Testament."
5. Josephus on Jesus mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm
6. The Jesus Seminar, mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/seminar.html#Criteria
7. Writing the New Testament- mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/testament.html
8. Health and Healing in the Land of Israel By Joe Zias
joezias.com/HealthHealingLandIsrael.htm
9. Economics in First Century Palestine, K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman, Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998.

November 28, 2012 at 1:00 pm |

Reality

Only for new members of this blog:

And then there is always the scroll bar located on the right side of your browser.

November 28, 2012 at 1:03 pm |

Monomachos

@ Reality

Here's what I get from your posts: blah, blah, blah, burp...

November 28, 2012 at 3:54 pm |

Reality

Obviously, some have a dislike for reading, research and rational thinking based on the said three r's.

November 28, 2012 at 4:11 pm |

Burps

You are no different than anyone who believes in religion. You are preaching to everyone about what you believe to be the truth. It's easier to let go and let people believe what they want to believe. It's not hurting you if someone believes in God. So what? It's like a kid who believes in Santa? He's not real but let the kid believe in him because it makes him happy.

November 28, 2012 at 4:43 pm |

End Religion

@jeff: "why do people like you spend so much time trying to debunk religion? I'm not religious, and I have far better things to do with my day than try to tell others what to believe."

Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. Every day religion is not contained, it spreads. The goal of every religion is to convert every person on the planet to their religion, their dogma, their controlled way of living and thinking. Religion often presents itself as a Trojan horse with an outer appearance of love and tolerance that in reality only ever results in hate, intolerance and diviseness.

As similar to any religion's head honcho, God in heaven is the celestial Kim Jong-il in North Korea, requiring strict devotion and worship at penalty of torture. That's not love, it's slavery, which some religious will tell you they gladly accept. I do not.

As for the "debunking," there really isn't much left to debunk. All religions claim to be the "one true path." Nearly every religion is fractured into even tinier branches. Since they cannot all be "true", the chance any one is such is miniscule on that one point alone. Understanding mankind has a history of creating gods lessens that chance.

As for Christianity, scholars both religious and not arguably tend to agree there is some minute evidence a guy named Jesus, and there were likely many, walked around during that time period. However many also agree there is simply zero evidence of anything supernatural about him.

We understand what constitutes the bible are fictional stories passed off as the "inerrant word of a god", some apparently the ravings of zealots the religious refer to loosely as "eyewitnesses", some others outright polished pre-existing myths, which were watered down word of mouth for decades if not longer before being written in a language no longer spoken, then translated any number of times and again "polished" by other men who got together to decide which "inerrant words of god" they personally liked best and which were tossed out.

Then come the cult sects who base their life upon this book. The truly ludicrous impossibly claim the entire thing is, in its current state, still the inerrant word of god. The more moderate among adherents somehow claim "it's just allegory," leaving it open to interpretation and the inevitable clashes over who's right in a book that is supposed to be the word of a god. Savor that for a moment. An all powerful omnipotent god, who demands all of mankind's devotion upon pain of eternal torture, supposedly feels some papyrus scrolls with writing in a language no one speaks, which is open to further interpretation, is the best way to communicate his needs.

You may have better things to do with your day. I personally feel a pride similar to a watchman on the castle wall. You sleep soundly while I protect you.

November 28, 2012 at 5:31 pm |

Reality

Some results in believing in a god in this case Allah:

As the koranic/mosque/Allah driven acts of terror and horror continue:

The Muslim Conquest of India – 11th to 18th century

■"The likely death toll is somewhere between 2 million and 80 million. The geometric mean of those two limits is 12.7 million. "

and the 19 million killed in the Mideast Slave Trade 7C-19C by Muslims.

and more recently

1a) 179 killed in Mumbai/Bombay, 290 injured

1b) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US troops killed in action, 3,480 and 928 in non combat roles. 102,522 – 112,049 Iraqi civilians killed as of 9/16/2011/, mostly due to suicide bombers, land mines and bombs of various types, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

9) The execution of an eloping couple in Afghanistan on 04/15/2009 by the Taliban.

10) – Afghanistan: US troops 1,385 killed in action, 273 killed in non-combat situations as of 09/15/2011. Over 40,000 Afghan civilians killed due to the dark-age, koranic-driven Taliban acts of horror

11) The killing of 13 citizen soldiers at Ft. Hood by a follower of the koran.

13) The May 28, 2010 attack on a Islamic religious minority in Pakistan, which have left 98 dead,

14) Lockerbie is known internationally as the site where, on 21 December 1988, the wreckage of Pan Am Flight 103 crashed as a result of a terrorist bomb. In the United Kingdom the event is referred to as the Lockerbie disaster, the Lockerbie bombing, or simply Lockerbie. Eleven townspeople were killed in Sherwood Crescent, where the plane's wings and fuel tanks plummeted in a fiery explosion, destroying several houses and leaving a huge crater, with debris causing damage to a number of buildings nearby. The 270 fatalities (259 on the plane, 11 in Lockerbie) were citizens of 21 nations.

15 The daily suicide and/or roadside and/or mosque bombings in the terror world of Islam.

16) Bombs sent from Yemen by followers of the koran which fortunately were discovered before the bombs were detonated.

17) The killing of 58 Christians in a Catholic church in one of the latest acts of horror and terror in Iraq.

19) A Pakistani minister, who had said he was getting death threats because of his stance against the country's controversial blasphemy law, was shot and killed Wednesday, 3/2/2011

20) two American troops killed in Germany by a recently radicalized Muslim, 3/3/2011

21) the kidnapping and apparent killing of a follower of Zoraster in the dark world of Islamic Pakistan.

22) Shariatpur, Bangladesh (CNN 3/30/2011) - Hena Akhter's last words to her mother proclaimed her innocence. But it was too late to save the 14-year-old girl. Her fellow villagers in Bangladesh's Shariatpur district had already passed harsh judgment on her. Guilty, they said, of having an affair with a married man. The imam from the local mosque ordered the fatwa, or religious ruling, and the punishment: 101 lashes delivered swiftly, deliberately in public. Hena dropped after 70 and died a week later.

23) "October 4, 2011, 100 die as a truck loaded with drums of fuel exploded Tuesday at the gate of compound housing several government ministries on a busy Mogadishu street. It was the deadliest single bombing carried out by the al Qaeda-linked al-Shabab group in Somalia since their insurgency began. "

o 24) Mon Jun 4, 2012 10:18am EDT
o
BAGHDAD (Reuters) – A suicide bomber detonated an explosive-packed car outside a Shi'ite Muslim office in central Baghdad on Monday, killing at least 26 people and wounding more than 190 in an attack bearing the hallmarks of Iraq's al Qaeda affiliate.
The bombing on a Shi'ite religious office comes at a sensitive time, with the country's fractious Shi'ite, Sunni and Kurdish blocs locked in a crisis that threatens to unravel their power-sharing deal and spill into sectarian tensions."

25) BURGAS, Bulgaria | Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:27am EDT

(Reuters) – A suicide bomber carried out an attack that killed seven people in a bus transporting Israeli tourists in Bulgaria, the interior minister said on Thursday, and Israel said Iranian-backed Hezbollah militants were to blame.

I wonder what Manti Te'o would think of the nonsense posts to this thread?

I hope he never has occasion to read the comments here. I do hope the Irish blacken the eye of the SEC.

And where have all the Mormons gone? Before the election they swarmed onto the Belief Blogs like scarabs in "The Mummy" everytime a reference to Mormonism or LDS appeared. Now? Nothing.

November 27, 2012 at 11:16 pm |

Apple Bush

GOPer,

Well for my own personal nonsense, I hope he has a sense of humor.

As for the Mormons? Yup, long gone.

November 27, 2012 at 11:19 pm |

End Religion

I definitely got the feeling the Mormons had been "mobilized" to come post. Now, they're back off practicing secret handshakes or some such I guess. Even the people still complaining about Romney's loss seem to be only the usual right wing nuts. Mormon folks seem to me to have suffered the loss gracefully. Of course someone will post a link for me with a Mormon ranting... :)

November 28, 2012 at 12:24 am |

Still here, and Mormon

We're still here. And not all of us supported Romney. And there is no need to dispute comments from people like Reality. Their own rantings are enough to suggest instability and confusion. Although I am currently in grad School at Purdue (an hour south of Notre Dame) I hope Te'o and his team win their game and I hope he gets the Heisman.

November 28, 2012 at 9:50 am |

Sam's Uncle

Oh, please...give it up with the Mormon thing. That was so two months ago. We're still around. We aren't sitting around practicing secret handshakes, committing blood sacrifice, or planning a world takeover. I know you all like to think that, but it's simply not true. You can keep on believing that if it makes you feel better. Instead, we continue to go about our lives trying to be the best we can be.

ER and AB, the Mormons are still here, we're still here just being quiet as the current leadership runs the country into the ground.

November 28, 2012 at 9:54 am |

More around than you know

Some of us don't comment unless we have something to say. Since you are taking attendence I'll stand up and be counted.

November 28, 2012 at 11:32 am |

GoldenGirl

Here

November 28, 2012 at 12:27 pm |

Rickjsmith

I'm still here too, just don't have anything constructive to add to these comments.

November 28, 2012 at 12:31 pm |

Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

Apple Bush

GOPer,

Well for my own personal nonsense, I hope he has a sense of humor.

As for the Mormons? Yup, long gone.
.
Their Great White Horse Prophecy was defeated...they have gone back to ironing their magic under roos and secret handshakes and practices copied from the Masonic rituals.

November 28, 2012 at 12:59 pm |

I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

To the Mormons who responded ...

Nice to know you are still around and ready to contribute your voice when you see fit.

It was starting to feel like the deluge of posts before the election was contrived.

November 28, 2012 at 1:10 pm |

End Religion

I had that contrived feeling too. Nice to know the Mormon lurkers are out there. Happy holidays!

November 28, 2012 at 4:21 pm |

End Religion

@btldriver: just remember only 4 more years of Obama, then you can help us elect some other Dem! Sweet!

November 28, 2012 at 4:22 pm |

Apple Bush

Chapter 3

The icicle stalactites drip a careful cadence. I square myself and squint into the gale. The wind whispers and whistles a warning but I have nowhere to turn. I know I must leave the security of my berm and do. I regret the decision. Blood. Chaos. Lionlylamb. What have you done, and why have I been chosen to temper your insanity?

I can’t feel my face. I can’t feel anything. What will lionlylamb do? Are you fucking kidding me?

Deep winter's nights do set straight the lintels awnings ever to be tightened by the truant muse and his trusty driver. Soon the stars will fade like dying patterns amid the lake's waves easing upon the once drenched shoals. Eager and with much palpitations sired Apple does reach ever more for the boat's rowing oars. Taking to the boat the young buck does set the oars straight and aligns his sight toward the far away shore.

He will be home soon this sired Apple of desperations lashing sores from past deeds so done. Forget he cannot nor will he ever want to forget lionlylambs intent. Nearing the ponds mid points Apple looks back from whence and where the deed was done. A sadness fell upon his face. Worry naught for the deeds were done and can be undone. "I must not falter." the sired one did say in a whisper as his breath showing the cold's mistiness.

Nearing the shoreline the rower takes up the oars and makes ready to abandon his boat. Wading to the shoreline, boat being drug toward and finally pulled upon the land does the wader's eyes look back to his place of bitter done deeds, No more will the sire of languishing frivolities be never again and so done.

The hated act does lay heavily upon Mr. Apples mind as he clamors past the deadened trunks of elder trees long ago chopped down by his own hands so many years ago. The boat and its oars snuggled up to its resting place, the sired son did make way for home. Bitten and drawn onward by the sweet smells of an aroma he does know and hunger pangs now in the belly of his being. Rent with wanting, he trudges ever on heading for home!

Just about home Sire Apple did think to himself as he went roundabout upon the weaving path. Soon Apple did think soon. The sweet aroma of pies being made did get ever so stronger as he closed in upon the door of his home. Finally he did open the door and a sweeter odor filled his senses. More than just pies were now filling him with wanton desire to feed upon the aromatic flavors whisking about the air. The forest fairies were so kind in their making the meals for him whenever he was upon any journey from home. It will be a good meal this morning sire Apple did whisper quietly to himself.

The sheets white. Her gown…white. My face buried deep in her bosom, nostrils chained to the intoxicating smell of fresh white linen and…her. Then like a cannon, I am torn back into reality. Deafening beeps, sirens, moans and hysteria all a cacophony of despair. What now lionlylamb? What now G.O.D. ? What nightmare have you dreamt to suck the air from my lungs and suffocate my logic in your whirlwind of screaming engines and disparate images of foolishness and insanity?

Nearing the shoreline the rower takes up the oars and makes ready to abandon his boat. Wading to the shoreline, boat being drug toward and finally pulled upon the land does the wader's eyes look back to his place of bitter done deeds, No more will the sire of languishing frivolities be never again and so done.

The hated act does lay heavily upon Mr. Apples mind as he clamors past the deadened trunks of elder trees long ago chopped down by his own hands so many years ago. The boat and its oars snuggled up to its resting place, the sired son did make way for home. Bitten and drawn by the sweet smells of an aroma he does know and hunger pangs now in the belly of his being rent with wanting, he trudges ever on heading for home!

November 27, 2012 at 10:57 pm |

Apple Bush

White winter. Snow as a loose knit blanket lighting upon my silhouette. I stare straight ahead, wrinkles turned upward like tiny smiles belying my intensity. Mouth parted, breath hard and visible. In the distance, movement. The hair stands up on my neck and arms. A tear wells and freezes in my stinging eye. Is it danger? Does it smell my fear? Shotgun lock and pop. Eye squinted and ready, scope on target. The beast is down. Now, will he leave? I arrive thus and find only blood droplets, already awash and waning. Lionlylamb was here. He was here.

November 27, 2012 at 9:55 pm |

Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

Even THAT makes more sense than LL's blabber. In fact, it's rather poetic, and there are no invented words.

Deep winter's nights do set straight the lintels awnings ever to be tightened by the truant muse and his trusty driver. Soon the stars will fade like dying patterns amid the lake's waves easing upon the once drenched shoals. Eager and with much palpitations sired Apple does reach ever more for the boat's rowing oars. Taking to the boat the young buck does set the oars straight and aligns his sight toward the far away shore. He will be home soon this sired Apple of desperations lashing sores from past deeds so done. Forget he cannot nor will he ever want to forget lionlylambs intent. Nearing the ponds mid points Apple looks back from whence and where the deed was done. A sadness fell upon his face. Worry naught for the deeds were done and can be undone. "I must not falter." the sired one did say in a whisper as his breath showing the cold's mistiness.

Not behind me nor in front of us, nor along side me in either direction and certainly not below nor above us queries ones thoughts regarding the kingdom domains and their families of all the Gods. Inside me and inside you and inside all forms of each and every consortium formations of celestial based Life is where the God's gods and goddesses all do dare live and take residents upon. Small though the Gods really are! Powerful yet still are their ways!

We are their building and they are our husbandries! We each do ever labour togetherly with our body's Godliness families who were there and with us before our being celestially yet physically conceived and even at ones birth and even till ones death and eventual returning back to the Godly kingdom domains of our bodies! 1Corinthians 3:9 "For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building!"

November 27, 2012 at 8:15 pm |

Apple Bush

Mr. Lamb, this post is just as fascinating the 32nd time as it was the 13th time. Well done.

November 27, 2012 at 8:22 pm |

niknak

@ Cowardly lion.

Even when you shorten up you posts, they are still boring.
And poorly written.

Not that I want to read more drivel from the babble, but at least it is semi coherent compared to the drivel you be putting down.
Face it bro, if god did make you, it did not do such a bang up job in the brain department.

Your posts are not very enlightening. They remind me of school back in the late 60's. Yes 1960's! I don't type very well but I do so try! Back in the 60's, I was a grade-A student and a few of my classmates would scorn me and ridicule me for my intelligence prowess. They were snobs then and they remind me of your rather mundane quips now. Keep on digging though for you just might find your niche in Life!

November 27, 2012 at 8:51 pm |

Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

LL, you seem to relish your role as the chief purveyor of drivel. Nobody has a clue what you are saying. What point is there in writing such babble?

What is your problem with your rather trivial ranting? Are you really that bored with others quips that you found me out and are beginning a run to stardom? Sill lady! Go and use your d I l d o I I s h ranting on your hubby! I'm rather sure he'll love watching you rave all by your lonesomeness! Me? I am doing fine thank you very much! Been celibate for many years now! No sense on screwing that up and catching an STD now in passing my half century mark!

My carnival ride is a holy roller coaster shooting right thru hell and reaching for the stars! Damn it! Damn rats in the belfry! Thought they were bats but gotta good look at them little fvcking trolls. Goony damn rats in the belfry! Maybe if I ring the bell really hard, they might flee! BRB! Got to go and start ringing the friggin belfry really fvcking hard!

Insanity? Yes I get that way whenever I spy trolling goons of rats playing in my belfry! Mine! Mine! My belfry is not for rats! Where's Paul at anyone know? He said sometime back he was going to bury the hatchet. I needed that God Damned hatchet a half hour ago I did! Chop off the heads of those belfry rats I will and feed them to my warthogs caged up in the backyard! A.B.? Have you seen Paul lately?

I had to reread what I said about my being celibate. I could see in my postie where you could imply me being celibate for 50 years! Nope! I've been celibate since I was 33. I'm 57 now so that's 24 years of celibacy.

November 27, 2012 at 9:45 pm |

Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

LL, you seem offended. Why should you be? I asked you why you write drivel that appears to be quite meaningless to everyone else. What is the point of posting if no one understands what you write?

Angry? Yes. I get into tirades of anguish whenever goony rat's brains want to say mindless drivel regarding what I took time to willingly write! If one cannot even take some time to "figuratively" try to understand my "drivel" then the jokes are on you, you silly dopes of half lucid unreasoned and semi-fractured mindless abilities seeking to lay waste to things unfathomable in their rather prudish minds' eyes!

Prayer does not; you are such a LIAR. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.

An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.

The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs.-

November 28, 2012 at 8:45 am |

LinSea

Prayer is not about getting what you ask for, blasphemer. And are you at all capable of coming up with an original post?

November 28, 2012 at 12:49 pm |

Apple Bush

The biggest problem with the Bible is that the covers are too far apart.

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