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you are right on there. i didn't even think about her re-dying. can dead people die again? without a head shot, i mean.

Nope, but who knows with this case. Unless the courts have required something else her date of death will remain December 12th no matter when her heart stops.

And since you brought up the head shot. I don't understand why the only thing that kills zombies is a head shot. On The Walking Dead the dude at the CDC showed how the brain has no activity so zombies are brain dead. Why is trauma to the head necessary if there is no brain activity? The trauma should be done to the brain stem.

I've had organ donors crash and we performed CPR. They crashed because they were dead and we did CPR to keep the oxygen perfusion for the organ procurement.

Originally Posted by blighted star

..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

Nope, but who knows with this case. Unless the courts have required something else her date of death will remain December 12th no matter when her heart stops.

And since you brought up the head shot. I don't understand why the only thing that kills zombies is a head shot. On The Walking Dead the dude at the CDC showed how the brain has no activity so zombies are brain dead. Why is trauma to the head necessary if there is no brain activity? The trauma should be done to the brain stem.

I've had organ donors crash and we performed CPR. They crashed because they were dead and we did CPR to keep the oxygen perfusion for the organ procurement.

i always thought decapitation should do the trick. but i digress.

this situation is sad but silly. at some point they have to realize she's dead. i also thought it was odd and upsetting that there was so much comparison to black kids who were violently killed and swept under the rug on the facebook. this is clearly a case of a bad thing happening by accident or random chance.

After fighting for weeks to a keep a 13-year-old girl who has been declared brain dead on life support, the family of Jahi McMath might take her off the machines that have been keeping her alive.

Jahi's uncle Omar Sealey told ABCNews.com that the family would meet Thursday to discuss removing her from life support. "We wanted to talk today. We didn't want to discuss anything on Christmas," he said.

Jahi was declared brain dead after surgery to remove her tonsils led to complications and cardiac arrest, according to ABC's affiliate station KGO in San Francisco.

Dr. David Durand, chief of pediatrics at Children's Hospital Oakland, released a statement on Monday that touched on the hospital's reasons for wanting to remove Jahi from the ventilator.

"We have the deepest sympathy for Jahi's mother who wishes her daughter was alive," wrote Durand. "But the ventilator cannot reverse the brain death that has occurred, and it would be wrong to give false hope that Jahi will ever come back to life."

After fighting for weeks to a keep a 13-year-old girl who has been declared brain dead on life support, the family of Jahi McMath might take her off the machines that have been keeping her alive.

Jahi's uncle Omar Sealey told ABCNews.com that the family would meet Thursday to discuss removing her from life support. "We wanted to talk today. We didn't want to discuss anything on Christmas," he said.

Jahi was declared brain dead after surgery to remove her tonsils led to complications and cardiac arrest, according to ABC's affiliate station KGO in San Francisco.

Dr. David Durand, chief of pediatrics at Children's Hospital Oakland, released a statement on Monday that touched on the hospital's reasons for wanting to remove Jahi from the ventilator.

"We have the deepest sympathy for Jahi's mother who wishes her daughter was alive," wrote Durand. "But the ventilator cannot reverse the brain death that has occurred, and it would be wrong to give false hope that Jahi will ever come back to life."

Please let the Family be reasonable. This girl deserves a proper burial.

As for the hospital not being willing to perform the procedures, I don't think that's petty at all. There are a SLEW of reasons to not do it. First, it would be supporting the Family's delusion that she's alive. It would leave them open to liability. It would be desecration of a corpse and it would be taking away surgeons and other resources from live patients. I'm sure there are other patients in that hospital who are in need of procedures being done that will get bumped off the schedule so they can perform these procedures on a dead girl. I would be angry if my Family or loved one had to wait in pain because their surgeon is busy working on a corpse.

Reasons to do it: Zero. She's dead. The only professionals who should be working on her right now are at the funeral home.

Although devastated and grief stricken, it's the Family that is being petty.

Originally Posted by animosity

i am seriously unimpressed.
i'm not going to kick the (prosthetic) legs out from anyone, but i'm not going to go up to them and ask if they need me to carry them on my back.

The hospital isn't standing in their way of the transfer, though. It's the receiving facility that wants the tracheostomy and gastrostomy. The hospital is just stating the facts; the girl is deceased and it is inappropriate to continue life sustaining measures or perform any on someone who will not benefit from them because they are deceased. If the girl was in a coma or vegetative state it would be reasonable. It's unreasonable for the family to think any facility should do what they are requesting.

I'm not trying to change your mind or arguing your point, btw. I'm just responding as to the whys.

Plus, what competent medical person really wants to do a surgical procedure on a corpse?!

Even if the insurance appears to be covering her right now, I wouldn't be surprised if they appeal their own decision and reverse their coverage later. I was seeing my chiro happily for about a month, with pre-approval, and a 3rd party chiro pre-approval service that contracts with my insurance decided I didn't need to see my chiro for the amount of visits I already had...so now they are not covering half of them...after the fact. I can guarantee that my $50 a pop chiro is hurting the insurance much less than keeping a dead person on life support indefinitely, so I would not be surprised if the insurance just waits for this all to die down and THEN informs the family that they aren't paying anything past the day Jahi was declared brain dead.

I feel bad for the family and wish none of this had happened, but what if everyone who didn't want to accept that their loved one was dead decided to refuse to pull life support? Can you imagine how that would paralyze our medical system in the US? No one wants to lose someone they love, but if someone is dead then there is not much else to be done. At least they could have honored her life by donating her organs so that others could live. Of course we all know that ship sailed a long time ago.

this situation is sad but silly. at some point they have to realize she's dead. i also thought it was odd and upsetting that there was so much comparison to black kids who were violently killed and swept under the rug on the facebook. this is clearly a case of a bad thing happening by accident or random chance.

Yeah, even decapitating them doesn't work. At least on TWD.

I haven't been on the FB since the day it was posted in this thread. Not only did I see the ignorant posts about people waking from the dead, but I also saw the comparisons you mention. I think the comparisons are disgusting and ignorant.

Originally Posted by Boston Babe 73

Please let the Family be reasonable. This girl deserves a proper burial.

As for the hospital not being willing to perform the procedures, I don't think that's petty at all. There are a SLEW of reasons to not do it. First, it would be supporting the Family's delusion that she's alive. It would leave them open to liability. It would be desecration of a corpse and it would be taking away surgeons and other resources from live patients. I'm sure there are other patients in that hospital who are in need of procedures being done that will get bumped off the schedule so they can perform these procedures on a dead girl. I would be angry if my Family or loved one had to wait in pain because their surgeon is busy working on a corpse.

Reasons to do it: Zero. She's dead. The only professionals who should be working on her right now are at the funeral home.

Although devastated and grief stricken, it's the Family that is being petty.

So much of this.

Originally Posted by raisedbywolves

Plus, what competent medical person really wants to do a surgical procedure on a corpse?!

Even if the insurance appears to be covering her right now, I wouldn't be surprised if they appeal their own decision and reverse their coverage later. I was seeing my chiro happily for about a month, with pre-approval, and a 3rd party chiro pre-approval service that contracts with my insurance decided I didn't need to see my chiro for the amount of visits I already had...so now they are not covering half of them...after the fact. I can guarantee that my $50 a pop chiro is hurting the insurance much less than keeping a dead person on life support indefinitely, so I would not be surprised if the insurance just waits for this all to die down and THEN informs the family that they aren't paying anything past the day Jahi was declared brain dead.

I feel bad for the family and wish none of this had happened, but what if everyone who didn't want to accept that their loved one was dead decided to refuse to pull life support? Can you imagine how that would paralyze our medical system in the US? No one wants to lose someone they love, but if someone is dead then there is not much else to be done. At least they could have honored her life by donating her organs so that others could live. Of course we all know that ship sailed a long time ago.

Soooooooo much of this. I will not be surprised if the insurance company refuses payment. I'm not even convinced the insurance agreed to cover costs in the first place.

I was denied TWICE for my Chron's medication after the previous medication failed. The insurance wanted me to try 60 more days of steroid treatment. I had already been on steroids for several months and had previously tried FOUR other medications over the years. My denials stated that the medication was not medically necessary because I needed 60 more days of steroid treatment. After reviewing my chart AGAIN with my butt scopes, pathology from my COLON RESECTION, x-rays (the one where you drink the barium), labs, and other tests, they finally approved it. It took THREE MONTHS.

It took these people a day or two? And let's not forget one of those days was Christmas. Yeah, I'm having a really hard time believing they were able to get a review board available to approve long term "care" on a corpse.

Originally Posted by blighted star

..... it wasn't anything personal, she just mistook him for a serial killer......

I wonder if the uncle said that it would be cheaper than Children's Hospital just to try to poke a little. Like, "we don't want her there anyway nah nah nah." It very well could be cheaper though. It might be terrible to say, but I'm really hoping Jahi's heart stops while on the vent, before the 30th. Just so the madness stops, but the family will probably expect CPR.

That's exactly what I'm hoping for. And while "hoping someone's heart will stop" is not a pleasant feeling, it seems like the best-case scenario at this point. For everybody.

Originally Posted by morbidT

Holy crap! I was typing my response when you posted this one.

Does anyone see the irony here? This family is accusing the hospital of killing or trying to kill their kid. They didn't believe the doctors that are associated with the hospital that the girl is dead. But they want the hospital to perform, at least, two more surgical procedures on her? What if they "kill" her during the procedure? The procedures will be a lot cheaper this time around considering no anesthesia will be needed.

I can totally understand why the hospital would not want to touch this with a 10-foot pole.

I really, REALLY hope (and yes, PRAY) that one of the family's pastors or some trusted member of the clergy who truly grasps what is going on can help them understand and let Jahi go.

(Dec. 26, 2013) And now for one of the more unusual fundraising hooks that we?ve seen: Consumer Watchdog, a nonprofit that has been fighting to lift the state?s $250,000 cap on pain-and-suffering damages in medical malpractice lawsuits, is riffing a pitch off of the controversial life-and-death situation of 13-year-old Oakland girl Jahi McMath, who was declared brain-dead Dec. 12 after surgery to remove her tonsils and excess tissue from her throat and nose.

The e-mail pitch that was blasted out Thursday includes the following:

The family of 13-year-old Jahi McMath prayed beside her bed at Oakland Children?s Hospital for a Christmas miracle. She went in for a simple tonsillectomy and ended up on life support ...

Jahi's tragic story of apparent medical negligence happens far too often. Hospitals like Children?s actually have an incentive to let children like Jahi die.

If kids injured by medical negligence die, the most their families can recover is $250,000 -- a limit set by the legislature 38 years ago and never adjusted for inflation. If children who are victims of medical negligence live, hospitals are on the hook for medical bills for life, which could be millions.

So hospitals like Oakland Children's Hospital and their doctors have an economic incentive to let children under their care who are victims of negligence die, rather than save them. That's outrageous?.

We fight hospitals, doctors and HMOs that threaten patient safety. And we win. Please take a moment to support our pioneering patient safety work with whatever tax-deductible contribution you can make.

"Children's Hospital Oakland finds it reprehensible that Consumer Watchdog is taking advantage of the tragic death of Jahi McMath to raise funds for their own corporate use. Their allegations are misguided and incorrect, based on conjecture and not on the facts."

Meanwhile, Chronicle comrade Carolyn Jones passes along this update on the story of Jahi, whose family has been fighting to force the hospital to keep her on a breathing machine even though several doctors have concluded she is brain-dead and has no chance of recovery:

The attorney for Jahi's family, Christopher Dolan, said Thursday that he?s found a nursing home that will take the girl and is negotiating with insurance companies and Children?s Hospital to insert breathing and feeding tubes that would allow her to be moved. A restraining order preventing the hospital from disconnecting her ventilator expires at 5 p.m. on Dec. 30.

Jahi's relatives -- who say they are holding out for a miracle -- spent Christmas at her bedside, playing board games, singing carols and praying for the girl to come back to life, Dolan said.

Children?s Hospital Oakland said it will not help the family of Jahi McMath fulfill their request to have the 13-year-old, who had been declared brain dead after a tonsillectomy on Dec. 9, moved to another hospital.

A possible compromise surfaced Thursday when the family?s attorney and the girl's relatives said they had found a nursing home that was willing to keep caring for Jahi even though two doctors have described her condition as irreversible. To be eligible for admission to the facility, however, the girl needs to have feeding and breathing tubes surgically implanted, they said.

The hospital, however, has refused, citing a judge?s recent ruling that the girl can be taken off a ventilator. That ruling came after a court-appointed doctor gave his second opinion, confirming the hospital?s original diagnose that the girl had irreversible brain death.

?We are aware that the family?s attorney has stated the family hopes to transfer Jahi?s body to another facility. However, he has refused to identify the facility to which they hope to transfer Jahi?s body,? Dr. David Durand, chief of pediatrics at the hospital, said in a Dec. 26 statement. ?The family?s attorney has stated that multiple surgical procedures need to be performed on Jahi?s body before this possible transfer can be completed.?

But, he added, ?Children?s Hospital Oakland does not believe that performing surgical procedures on the body of a deceased person is an appropriate medical practice. Children?s Hospital Oakland continues to extend its wishes for peace and closure to Jahi McMath?s family.?

The family?s lawyer, Christopher Dolan, said Friday that he is prepared to go to federal court to force the hospital to insert breathing and feeding tubes into the eighth grader.

Dolan told The Associated Press that he is drafting a civil rights lawsuit alleging that Children's Hospital Oakland's refusal to perform the procedures that would allow 13-year-old Jahi McMath to be transferred to a long-term care facility violates her family's religious, due process rights and privacy rights.

"The hospital seems to feel that only it can make decisions and in that sense, you have, I have and everyone has the right to privacy over our health care," Dolan said. "It touches on some very significant issues, namely, who controls the decisions when you are dead or alive."
Play Video
Calif. teen winds up on life support after routine tonsil surgery

The legal maneuver would need to be taken quickly. Judge Evelio Grillo ruled Tuesday that Jahi's mother, Nailah Winkfield, had until 5 p.m. Monday Dec. 30 to appeal his decision to allow the hospital to take her daughter off life support.

If Winkfield decides to take the case to federal court, Dolan said he would also seek a temporary restraining order to prevent the hospital from disconnecting the girl from the ventilator that is keeping her body functioning.

I'm actually glad the hospital has outlined why they won't do the procedure. It's not just a vague "nope, won't do it." But they plainly state they won't do surgery on a dead body.

As for the negligence suit, well, how is that going to be possible if Jahi's body has healed any evidence that would reveal the cause of her becoming brain dead? I don't think the suit, or any suit, would go very far.

I also agree that the family is going to be sorely surprised when the insurance company doesn't pay for her treatment.

"You have suffered enough. And warred with yourself. It's time that you won."

OAKLAND (CBS SF / AP) -- A nursing home that was to accept brain dead teen Jahi McMath and continue life support measures has now backed out, saying it was not clear if and when Children's Hospital Oakland would perform the necessary tracheotomy and gastric tube procedures to transfer her.

This development comes Friday afternoon, just after the hospital announced it was now willing to facilitate her transfer to a long-term nursing home, but only under certain conditions including those procedures.

A lawyer for Children's Hospital Oakland said in a letter made public that before the hospital will comply with Jahi McMath's family's request to move her, but needed to speak directly with officials at the nursing home to make sure they understand her condition, "including the fact that Jahi is brain dead" -- and to discuss needed preparations.

Lawyer Douglas Straus also said the Alameda County coroner needs to sign off on the move "since we are dealing with the body of a person who has been declared legally dead."

Now, however, the family is searching for another facility in Southern California.

"Children's Hospital will of course continue to do everything legally and ethically permissible to support the family of Jahi McMath. In that regard, Children's will allow a lawful transfer of Jahi's body in its current state to another location if the family can arrange such a transfer and Children's can legally do so," Straus wrote in the letter.

The letter was sent to the family's lawyer, Christopher Dolan, after he said he was preparing a federal civil rights lawsuit to force the hospital to outfit Jahi with breathing and feeding tubes -- surgical procedures Dolan said she would need to breathe and be fed at the new facility but which the nursing home is not equipped to insert.

The girl's relatives originally announced on Thursday that they had found a nursing home in the San Francisco Bay Area that was willing to care for the girl if she had the tubes. Within hours, the hospital's chief of pediatrics issued a statement saying Children's would not cooperate because it "does not believe that performing surgical procedures on the body of a deceased person is an appropriate medical practice." Friday, the nursing home backed out.

What I meant was, it's a distinction her family & their supporters don't seem to get (some of them, anyway.)

The family clearly does not understand (regardless of how many people say it or how it is said) that Jahi is not coming back or going to wake up. The hospital has made a statement saying they will not do surgery on a "deceased person."

I comprehend what's going on and I'm pretty sure everyone else in this thread does too.

"You have suffered enough. And warred with yourself. It's time that you won."

OAKLAND (CBS SF / AP) -- A nursing home that was to accept brain dead teen Jahi McMath and continue life support measures has now backed out, saying it was not clear if and when Children's Hospital Oakland would perform the necessary tracheotomy and gastric tube procedures to transfer her.

This development comes Friday afternoon, just after the hospital announced it was now willing to facilitate her transfer to a long-term nursing home, but only under certain conditions including those procedures.

A lawyer for Children's Hospital Oakland said in a letter made public that before the hospital will comply with Jahi McMath's family's request to move her, but needed to speak directly with officials at the nursing home to make sure they understand her condition, "including the fact that Jahi is brain dead" -- and to discuss needed preparations.

Lawyer Douglas Straus also said the Alameda County coroner needs to sign off on the move "since we are dealing with the body of a person who has been declared legally dead."

Now, however, the family is searching for another facility in Southern California.

"Children's Hospital will of course continue to do everything legally and ethically permissible to support the family of Jahi McMath. In that regard, Children's will allow a lawful transfer of Jahi's body in its current state to another location if the family can arrange such a transfer and Children's can legally do so," Straus wrote in the letter.

The letter was sent to the family's lawyer, Christopher Dolan, after he said he was preparing a federal civil rights lawsuit to force the hospital to outfit Jahi with breathing and feeding tubes -- surgical procedures Dolan said she would need to breathe and be fed at the new facility but which the nursing home is not equipped to insert.

The girl's relatives originally announced on Thursday that they had found a nursing home in the San Francisco Bay Area that was willing to care for the girl if she had the tubes. Within hours, the hospital's chief of pediatrics issued a statement saying Children's would not cooperate because it "does not believe that performing surgical procedures on the body of a deceased person is an appropriate medical practice." Friday, the nursing home backed out.

This leads me to believe that they weren't told the whole truth about the girl's condition. Of course they backed out. What Nursing Home is going to take up a perfectly good bed for a "patient" who has No insurance. They are well aware that she won't be covered.

Originally Posted by animosity

i am seriously unimpressed.
i'm not going to kick the (prosthetic) legs out from anyone, but i'm not going to go up to them and ask if they need me to carry them on my back.

"Nailah spoke from the deepest part of her soul and said, "I brought her in here for a simple operation, I trusted you. Now you tell me she is dead. I can touch her, she is warm and soft. She is not cold and stiff like death. She smells good and when I rub her feet she pulls away. I know my daughter, she's not dead. She needs time, I need time. She is my baby, you can't take her. You did this to her, you owe her some time to get better."As she said this, she stared right at me. As a father, I felt the depth of her anguish. As a lawyer, I felt the need to protect her and Jahi. So began our odyssey, a day-to-day fight to keep Jahi alive."

"That's my gift this year, a mother together with her daughter and time for a miracle"

"Nailah spoke from the deepest part of her soul and said, "I brought her in here for a simple operation, I trusted you. Now you tell me she is dead. I can touch her, she is warm and soft. She is not cold and stiff like death. She smells good and when I rub her feet she pulls away. I know my daughter, she's not dead. She needs time, I need time. She is my baby, you can't take her. You did this to her, you owe her some time to get better."As she said this, she stared right at me. As a father, I felt the depth of her anguish. As a lawyer, I felt the need to protect her and Jahi. So began our odyssey, a day-to-day fight to keep Jahi alive."

"That's my gift this year, a mother together with her daughter and time for a miracle"

I feel so sorry for her Mother and family. This has to be horrible for them. However, I believe that the child is dead. I know they don't want to believe it, and I know they think that God is going to bring her back to life. I just don't think that's possible. I believe that she's gone. She told her Mom she had a fear of not waking up, she thought she would die. Maybe it was premonition, or maybe it was just plain old fear. Her parents need to realize that she is dead. Just as they think God can bring her back to life, they need to realize that maybe it's in God's will that she remain dead. Her soul/spirit is gone, "she" is no longer there, and I have never heard of someone being dead 2 weeks and miraculously coming back to life. Either you trust God and his infinite wisdom, or you only trust God if he does what you want him to do.

I suffered from the same problems when I was Jahi's age. I also had my tonsils and adenoids removed. I could've died, and I know if I would've my Mom would've been devastated.

"Nailah spoke from the deepest part of her soul and said, "I brought her in here for a simple operation, I trusted you. Now you tell me she is dead. I can touch her, she is warm and soft. She is not cold and stiff like death. She smells good and when I rub her feet she pulls away. I know my daughter, she's not dead. She needs time, I need time. She is my baby, you can't take her. You did this to her, you owe her some time to get better."As she said this, she stared right at me. As a father, I felt the depth of her anguish. As a lawyer, I felt the need to protect her and Jahi. So began our odyssey, a day-to-day fight to keep Jahi alive."

"That's my gift this year, a mother together with her daughter and time for a miracle"