Can a long run REALLY never be too slow? (Read 513 times)

I think the disclaimer to the "pace does not matter in the long run" is that it has to be a continuous run without walking, if you can maintain a somewhat normal running stride at 13-14 min mile pace then you could probably alternate a week at your usual pace by yourself and another week with the group.

I like to think I can run a 4 hour marathon, but can't run at 12+ min pace to save my life, the pace invariably creeps up and need to walk a while to stay with my running group when I run with them. You probably run a good min/mile faster on your runs than I do.

Running way too slow can be detrimental to your form, so I wouldn't do all of your long runs with this crowd. It won't hurt occasionally, but I think it would a bad idea to do it all the time.

Nobby can speak to this better than anyone, but back in the 70's and 80's, we called long runs LSD, which morphed into Long Slow Distance, but were originally conceived as Long Steady Distance by Lydiard. The idea wasn't to just go out and slog as many slow miles as possible, but to maintain a steady pace on the long run.

Still an easy run, but not even the slowest run of the week . For example, recovery" runs the day after a hard interval session would be run at a slower pace than the week's long run.

Bottom line is that I think you should run with the group sometimes for the social aspect, but run most of them at a pace you're comfortable with. I think training-wise, you'll get more out of the runs by doing them at your pace, provided you don't tend to run them too fast when your alone.

On your deathbed, you won't wish that you'd spent more time at the office. But you will wish that you'd spent more time running. Because if you had, you wouldn't be on your deathbed.

Running way too slow can be detrimental to your form, so I wouldn't do all of your long runs with this crowd. It won't hurt occasionally, but I think it would a bad idea to do it all the time.

Nobby can speak to this better than anyone, but back in the 70's and 80's, we called long runs LSD, which morphed into Long Slow Distance, but were originally conceived as Long Steady Distance by Lydiard. The idea wasn't to just go out and slog as many slow miles as possible, but to maintain a steady pace on the long run.

Still an easy run, but not even the slowest run of the week . For example, recovery" runs the day after a hard interval session would be run at a slower pace than the week's long run.

Bottom line is that I think you should run with the group sometimes for the social aspect, but run most of them at a pace you're comfortable with. I think training-wise, you'll get more out of the runs by doing them at your pace, provided you don't tend to run them too fast when your alone.

Funny, the first thread I opened for a while (been busy!) and saw my name!! ;o)

Just quickly, before I have to go pick up my daughter; this is absolutely correct--running way too slow would be detrimental to form. But we are not ONLY running for form. There are many other developments that we'd have to acquire to perform better.

Toshi Takaoka, a 2:06:16 marathon runners, runs at 8-minute-mile pace up to 150 miles a week. THEN he'd introduce some race-pace running. Running 8-minute-pace alone wouldn't have gotten him to 2:06. Running 150MPW at 8-minute pace alone wouldn't have gotten him to 2:06. But he did do lots of very slow running--adding 3+ minutes to his marathon pace. When Seko was doing 50-miler, that was at about 8-minute-mile pace. Rod Dixon, when he was training for 1500m (which he won the bronze medal in 1972 Olympics), he told me that he did occasional 3-hour run. He said, "But that was only 13-miles or so..." He ran 3:33 for 1500m, 13:15 for 5k and 2:08:59 for the marathon.

Anyway, turns out the trail was WAY hillier than I thought. Mountains are different here in the PNW. Also, there was a speedier guy in the group, and we happily slogged along at a nice enough clip that allowed us to take in the spectacular views.

I think the disclaimer to the "pace does not matter in the long run" is that it has to be a continuous run without walking, if you can maintain a somewhat normal running stride at 13-14 min mile pace then you could probably alternate a week at your usual pace by yourself and another week with the group.

I would not know, Nobby said something about it a while ago. I am sure I am misquoting him, but something to the effect of a continous cardiac pressure is needed to get the full benefit of the long run (capillary bed development?)

I would not know, Nobby said something about it a while ago. I am sure I am misquoting him, but something to the effect of a continous cardiac pressure is needed to get the full benefit of the long run (capillary bed development?)

Assuming we're still talking about long runs (not intervals or whatever), if your long run includes mountains, you may find that walking allows you to keep fairly continuous, relatively constant cardiac pressure. Think about 20-30% slopes for 30-60min in your long run.

That said, I'm sure neither Nobby nor Running Wizard had that type of terrain in mind, but some of our races may be very hilly with long climbs of 20%.

(just being ornery )

"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

Yes it can be too slow. I've done it. Some speeds are just pointless in regards to benefit toward your goal. Better than not going on a run at all...perhaps. But helpful to your cause - doubtful.

All due respect, you could have NOT be more wrong and, yes, MUCH better than not going on a run at all and most probably MUCH better than doing some "cross training".

First of all, how would you define "too slow"? If someone who "races" a marathon at 14-minute pace runs at 15, would that be too slow? Or if someone who races a marathon at 5-minute pace goes out and runs at 10-minute pace, like some elite Kenyans do, would that be too slow? For some elite runners, their HR rarely reaches 100 if they go for a nice jog at 8-minute pace; is it too slow? Or some run-walker I knew gets his HR beyond 180 during a run portion of his run-walk at 14-minute pace; is it too slow?

In the ACT OF RUNNING, you are pushing the entire body weight into the air against gravity. If this happens, that itself provides a tremendous pressure to your circulatory system. It is a lot more than when your body weight is supported and you don't have to deal with the entire body weight. This puts running in a very unique position compared with most other form of exercises. A very nice easy jog for 20-minutes MIGHT still do a lot more to your heart and lungs and the entire circulatory system than an hour of whatever you may do in the gym however it may perceived to be "harder" simply because your face turns red and you start to huff and puff.

I would not know, Nobby said something about it a while ago. I am sure I am misquoting him, but something to the effect of a continous cardiac pressure is needed to get the full benefit of the long run (capillary bed development?)

The whole "pressure" concept for capillary development is completely false, an urban legend that goes all the way back to the training philosophy of Soviet Bloc nations of Eastern Europe in the early 80s. Capillary development is caused by local oxygen concentration (or lack thereof due to exercise) causing secretion of various pro-angiogenic growth factors which cause existing blood vessels to grow buds into surrounding tissue, which develop into mature blood vessels. Pressure has nothing to do with it.

Now if you walk a bunch and so you don't get the period of low oxygen in the tissue to stimulate the growth factor secretion, THAT is a workable idea.

"If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does. There's your pep talk for today. Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

The whole "pressure" concept for capillary development is completely false, an urban legend that goes all the way back to the training philosophy of Soviet Bloc nations of Eastern Europe in the early 80s. Capillary development is caused by local oxygen concentration (or lack thereof due to exercise) causing secretion of various pro-angiogenic growth factors which cause existing blood vessels to grow buds into surrounding tissue, which develop into mature blood vessels. Pressure has nothing to do with it.

Now if you walk a bunch and so you don't get the period of low oxygen in the tissue to stimulate the growth factor secretion, THAT is a workable idea.