Should She Give The Cheap Bad Kisser Another Chance?

Name: ParvatiState: NJAge: 44Comment: I met a guy at a Moxie/ATWYS event and we clicked really well. After a few weeks of emailing and phone calls, we finally met in person. We found it really easy to talk to each other and I enjoyed getting to know him. At the end of the evening, he asked me to pay my share of the meal. As a feminist, I have no problem doing this. As a girl being courted, I was a little surprised as I am accustomed to a gentleman at least offering to pay. Especially as he is an executive at a big corporation with a high salary and I work at a non-profit. I handed over half the cost of the meal and we ended the date with a hug and made tentative plans to meet the following weekend.

During our second date the next weekend, another dinner, we got along quite well. Conversation flowed easily and many of our values and thoughts seemed to be in sync. Although I was not unduly physically attracted to him, I felt that we got along so well it was worth spending time with him to see if more romantic feelings might develop. When the check arrived, he said “that will be $45 each.” This meant the tip would end up being less than 10% so I surreptitiously left a little more to make up for it.

He drove me home and parked outside my building to finish the conversation we were in the middle of. Suddenly, he asked if he could kiss me. It was said a little shyly and I kind of nodded my head, believing it would be a sweet first kiss, maybe a soft peck on the lips. Instead, he grabbed my head, pulled it forcefully towards him, and drove his tongue into my mouth. It was a very slobbery, aggressive and unpleasant experience. I tried to push him away but he held my head in a bit of a vice grip and began kissing my face — forehead, eyelid, chin, etc. just when I thought it was over, he went back into my mouth and swirled his tongue round and round in a dizzying imitation of a high school freshman at his first makeout session. He ended by planting a loud “razberry” on my cheek — so weird. He ended with “I’m glad we did that.” When I tried to respond, he asked me not to talk as that would spoil it.

I ended the night thinking I had no interest in seeing him again. However, the next morning I saw he had left me a voicemail – in it he said “Even though our kiss was obviously a mutual decision, I sensed you were pulling away a little bit so I wanted to let you know that we can go at a slower pace because I want things to work out for both of us.” Not exactly an apology, but an acknowledgement.

I am left with mixed feelings. Am I wrong to feel that he should have at least offered to pay if he was indeed expecting a romantic relationship? Is cheapness (not paying, low tip) a quality that can be overlooked? Am I wrong to feel violated by the aggressive kissing since I sort of gave him permission? Should I give him another chance since its so hard to find people that you connect well with? Can sexual chemistry grow from the foundation of a friendship? I would appreciate any thoughtful advice that will help further my thinking, help me understand his perspective or provide any wisdom. Thanks!

It sounds to me like you’re trying to force attraction where there is none. If you’re not feeling it, you’re not feeling it. I appreciate the fact that you’re trying to give this guy a chance. I also admire that you’re not immediately throwing him in the trash. But if the attraction isn’t there, it isn’t there. Sure, you could give it more time and things might turn around. You can do that. But everything in your letter screams “Tell me it’s okay to dump this guy.” The real question is, are you basing your decision on things that really matter, or are you looking for reasons to justify your lack of attraction? Furthermore, if you are looking for reasons to justify your lack of interest, why do you feel a need to justify it at all? A compulsion to defend a choice like this makes me think you feel you’re being unfair somehow. Or maybe you feel that, at our age, we really don’t have a right to “be so picky.”

I’ll say this. At our age, we do have to be careful of buying in to the “I won’t settle” thing. Bottom line is, if we’re the catch we think we are, we wouldn’t be having the difficult we’re having. But that doesn’t mean that you have to try and force a square peg in to a round hole. Could the things you mentioned be fixed? Yes. That is, if you really want to fix them. Which I don’t think you do.

Am I wrong to feel that he should have at least offered to pay if he was indeed expecting a romantic relationship?

I think you’re wrong to assume to know why he did or didn’t pay. Maybe he didn’t think you were interested. Maybe he didn’t want to offend you. Maybe he doesn’t believe in paying a woman’s way. Maybe you were giving off signs of disinterest and weren’t even aware of it. Maybe he’s going through some financial difficulties. Maybe he was doing what some guys do and testing you. (FYI..guys? Stop that. It makes you look ridiculously douchey. If you’re that bitter, stay home.) There are a lot of reason why this guy didn’t pay.

Is cheapness (not paying, low tip) a quality that can be overlooked?

Just because he didn’t pay for you doesn’t mean he’s cheap. I’ll give you the low tip thing. That’s a stickler for me as well, but I’ve made that mistake before of calculating incorrectly. It happens. You don’t know enough about this guy to make broad assumptions. He did call you and acknowledge that you seemed distant during and after the kiss. That’s a sign that he’s not totally self-absorbed. He’s acknowledging you and your feelings. That’s something worth considering.

You’ve set up this and all of these questions so that there’s really only one plausible answer. Pose the situation this way and the natural response would be No, you shouldn’t see him again. The way you’ve framed this whole scenario makes it clear what you want to do, but you also want to appear as though you’re trying to be flexible. It’s either one or the other. Can’t be both.

Am I wrong to feel violated by the aggressive kissing since I sort of gave him permission?

Ok. Let’s back up here for a moment. I’m not sure when this little trend started wherein women like to paint men as predatory creeps simply because they guy expresses some physical interest, but it’s absolute bullshit. It’s also quite offensive to anybody who has been truly violated. Some dude who doesn’t know how to kiss is not “violating” you. The man in the story is guilty of being a bad kisser. Not forcing himself upon a woman . Those are two very different things. Some guys are tools and deserve the ire they get. But some women need to see the difference between a man who is intentionally ignoring her signals and a man who is just socially clueless and inexperienced. They also need to learn how to recognize when they are projecting their issues on to the guy and trying to make him out to be the bad guy just to reconcile with their own regret or insecurity. Take these examples:

1. Women meets man. Man sends her a text asking her to meet for a drink. Woman tells man she has a busy week ahead of her but doesn’t specify how or why. Guy sends a text the next day asking if she’s free for a drink. Woman says no and complains to friends about how pushy the guy is. She agrees to meet him later in the week at a loud bar with a DJ, with friends in tow. (Hi. Rude.) The guy ends up standing close to her to talk to her. Woman accuses him of “violating her personal space.” Or,gee, maybe IT WAS LOUD IN THAT BAR YOU CHOSE and he wanted to be sure you heard him. At one point they attempt to move through the crowd to a quieter spot. Man puts hand on the small of the woman’s back as they walk. Women tells friends he once again was invading her personal space. (Actually, I think that’s somewhat chivalrous, as their trying to guide you through a crowd safely.) She then allows this man, the one she said kept invading her space, to escort her through a dark parking lot and offers him a ride to his car. Upon arriving at his car, guy leans in for a kiss. Omigod!!! Predator! Predator!!!! Woman declines his invite for a second date because she felt the guy didn’t pay attention to her signals and violated her personal space.

2. Woman dates a guy with a female roommate. One morning she wakes up to find him lying on his roommates bed, with his female roommate who is clad only in a “nightgown”, watching television. Man is accused of not being a gentleman. It couldn’t be that he was trying to be courteous and not wake her and chose to go to his roommates room to watch TV so as not to disturb her. He MUST be trying to seduce his roommate while she’s asleep in the other room.

3. Woman gets fixed up with a guy through friends. Woman decides the guy is a jerk and turns down his invitation for another date. Woman reads the newspaper some time later (it’s not clear when) and reads about the man, and learns the man is now engaged. Women does some Googling and learns he’s been with the woman for some time. (Good thing she was so disinterested in him.) Therefore, it MUST be that the man was a cheating asshole. Which makes no sense because she was introduced to him via a friend. So now the friend and the guy are complicit in his act of douchebaggery. Couldn’t be that he and this woman took a break. It HAS to be that he’s an unfaithful louse and his friend was a pimp.

All of these are examples of how some women like to immediately assume the worst in men. Now, maybe these guys were all shady. Or maybe these women are just really, really insecure or trying to justify why they discarded yet another perfectly decent guy.

OP, if you’ve decided he’s cheap, then there doesn’t seem to be a point in me trying to talk you out of not seeing him again. Which is what I think you want me to do. Sorry. Not giving you absolution. I’m sure you have girlfriends who would be happy to tell you they think this guy is a cheap face-raper. You don’t need me.

71 Responses to “Should She Give The Cheap Bad Kisser Another Chance?”

I don’t know why you have mixed feelings. If you’re cool with always splitting the check (adding extra for the tip), and obnoxious kissing – by all means keep dating the guy. If that’s not your style and never will be – don’t second guess yourself about letting this one go.

The guy is a catch, the way we value things in our society. We just can’t get past that. And that is the problem with most women. If this guy stocked shelves, we wouldn’t even be here answering this. People gotta come to grips with what their first filter really should be.

Look. The guy is too cheap. He is a bad kisser. So that should be it. The only reason that she is even still considering this guy is because he is doing well career-wise.

People claim to have filters regarding who they want. But they bend these if the person is good looking or wealthy or famous, or well regarded. we really need to stick to what should really matter to us.

Could be that he was sh*t testing her, and she’s failed miserably too. Let’s review:

This via the OP “As a feminist, I have no problem doing this. As a girl being courted, I was a little surprised as I am accustomed to a gentleman at least offering to pay. Especially as he is an executive at a big corporation with a high salary and I work at a non-profit. I handed over half the cost of the meal and we ended the date with a hug and made tentative plans to meet the following weekend”.

Yeah so # 1.) He may be cheap, many executives are. He also may be doing the cursory but necessary ‘god digger’ test too. #2.) He was trying to suss out how comfortable someone was with some ‘aggressive’ physical expression. Sure, he could also be a really bad kisser, or just wildly enthusiastic too. Who knows?

And sure, ‘1st date rules & all’ but Ms. P is also using that magic 19th century concept of ‘courting’ too. This to describe a 1st date? You betcha he came on ‘strong & wrong’ when they sense some unwarranted degrees of entitlement. That thought is mitigated somewhat by the follow on communication though.

But bottom line? If you’re not feeling it, don’t feel obligated to continue with the exchange. Try for the next wealthy executive you might feel interested in. Moxie was dead on with the ‘Oh My’ & ‘clutch the pearls’ moments on the sloppy physical affections here too. Not all guys are balletic or even gracefully athletic. They’re guys. Even the rich & well cultured ones. On TV, they’re ACTORS and so generally look & do better at all this ‘wooing’ stuff you may enjoy from the audience’s perspective. Just don’t think it’s anywhere close to ‘real life’, right? Someone in their mid-40’s might be able to know the difference. Train him up they way you want him to be with you or look for another fish in the sea. Simple. Cheers, ‘VJ’

I hate when women test me. So I certainly stay far away from testing any women. I let people make their own mistakes or impress me. It seems this guy has some baggage somewhere in there. We all have baggage, but it should not interfere with us functioning and giving people we meet a fair chance.

To the OP. I am never going to question your judgement. If you feel he is cheap, it doesn’t matter whether he is really cheap. What counts, is what you feel. The same with bad kissing. What is nonsensical to me, is that you tell us one thing about what you really want, but want us to tell you to go against your better judgement. And we can’t do that.

@ Selena — my gut did tell me to quit seeing him. But the voicemal afterwards is making me think that he’s not so cluless – at least about that crazy makeout session. Maybe this is something that can be worked on. Kiss coaching?

@jojo — I am still considering this guy because we get along really well… and am trying to see if this can build into a romantic interest or if we’re really in friendship territory. I will not say that his career is no factor at all because that would be a lie. But its certainly only one factor, and low on the list compared to what really matters. Whats important to me is that he be passionate about his job and doing something meaningful. Its much less important that he be making lots of money.

You need to dump this jerk. After he kissed you he told you not to speak or you would spoil it? He is selfish idiot. He just let you know that your sex lives together will center on him. By kissing you like he did showed you how he could care less about connecting with you.

Well, this post about the sloppy kissing had me laughing out loud. But, let me give you a male’s perspective on what happened.

1) He had you split dinner on the first and second date: I imagine this guy has beem taken for a ride by women before who simply wanted a free dinner. Hence, his desire to have the OP split the dinner checks. Some women feel it’s alright to go out with a man a few times to “try him out” and, allegedly, give him a “shot.” It’s funny because my sister and I had a huge argument over this topic, recenlty. She has the typical female entitlement “attitude” of “you asked me out, so you pay.” My response was, “if you are not sure, then you should split the check.” Again, to me, it’s not cool for a woman, who is on the fence regarding a guy, to go out with him on his dime. This is b/s. Women know if they are interested or not and this, “trying to get to know him” is a sham. Women who do this lack values, in my opinion. And most of the time, these same women don’t even say thank you. Not all women are like this, of course, Some do split the check when they know there’s no interest.

Also, I suspect this guy knew or felt that the OP was on the fence about him; hence, the “splitting of checks.

And, OP, it does not matter how much money a guy has. Noone likes to feel being taken advantage of. I use to take women to nice, high end resturants because I wanted a certain type of ambience and to let them know I took time to plan the date. Well, no more! If you don’t like Chili’s then see ya!

2) Sloppy Kiss: From the OP’s description, this guy does not know how to kiss or because he felt there was no interest from the OP he thought, “what the hell”, and kissed her like a dog would. I think it’s funny, actually.

Here’s the deal, OP. My policy is that I kiss a woman on the first date–no exceptions–unless I’m not attracted to her. That weeds out the princesses who want a free dinner while they are trying to make up their minds about me. If I were the guy– in the OP’s story,–I would have kissed her after the first date. I can guarantee you the OP–even if it was a normal kiss–would not have gone out with the guy a second time if he had kissed her on a first date. Why? Because it was no longer a “free dinner.” Now, she knows if she goes out with the guy again she will need to “pay” for the dinner by being kissed again, felt up or having sex. It’s no longer on her timeline and guess what–miraculously, instead of taking two(2) dates to decide, the OP will have made her mind up after one (1) date that she was not interested. These are the games men have to play nowadays in order to avoid being taken advantage of. And guess what, ladies, a couple of us guys have figured your bullshit out and call you out on it.

I went out with this blonde a few weeks back and we had drinks. Of course, i paid for all the drinks but, at the end, i just kissed her and it suprised her. hahaha. And you know what? She did not talk to me again and I say good riddance. She was not interested and knew if she went out with me again I would want more. As I said, you go out with me on my dime, it’s going to cost you.

3) Women who use outrageous and damning terms to describe men who show interest: I’m glad Moxie brought this topic up as it happens to men, too often. For example, because I showed interest in a women, one time-she claimed I was “borderline harrassing” her. I was like, wtf? Women need to realize that terms such as “harrassing, violated, stalking, creepy” have serious undertones and potentially serious consequences and, hence, should not be thrown around lightly. I’m not saying there are not guys who deserved to be labeled as such, but I find women just throw these terms around too easily. It’s not funny or nice to joke to your friends that a guy was stalking you because he called you two (2) times in a course of a week. That’s called interest.

This Chillis idea you continuously mention? Bad idea. It’s that stupid testing thing I was referring to in the post. You’ll look like a world class rube/socially inept boob if you take her to some cheesey chain restaurant. She’ll bail strictly because she thinks you’re a loser. Not because she’s a gold digger.

because he felt there was no interest from the OP he thought, “what the hell”, and kissed her like a dog would. I think it’s funny, actually.

Nobody would intentionally kiss someone like this.

For example, because I showed interest in a women, one time-she claimed I was “borderline harrassing” her. I was like, wtf?

Well, given the fact that you’ve admitted to over doing it with the texts and phone calls, it does sound like you have a tendency to overwhelm women with communications. I wouldn’t call it harassment, but it is annoying. But the rest of the thought I agree with. It seems as though when women are offended in some way – rightly or wrongly – they go for the cheap blows. They either call him cheap, make fun of his sexual performance, or label him a predator.

Moxie, I’m using Chili’s as a general term to describe taking a woman to a less expensive place. Plus, I find it humorous. I’ll stop as it seems the joke has worn thin in this establishment.

As far as the kissing, you would be suprised. I’ve known guys to do that to a woman–intentionally–when they think a woman is not interested. I’m not condoning it and it may be rare but guys do it. Also, c’mon, that kiss was so obnoxious and out there it had to be planned. Plus, I’m assuming this guy is in his forties or fifties and he would know better than to kiss like that. He could be into that type of kissing–who knows.

I would rather have a guy take me out for a slice of pizza and have him pay the $4 for both our meals than take me to a “nicer” restaurant or your Chili’s example and have him say “your share is $30″ it is not that I can’t pay for my meals. Of course I can. I make decent money. It is about seeing that he WANTS to treat the girl he is with.

Just as a man doesnt want a woman to be like “okay, I guess I’ll kiss you but i dont really want to. I am just doing it as part of the cultural dance of dating.” Men want to be desired. Women want to be pampered. We both want different things. Of course men want to be pampered too but I dont think that it trumps their need to feel desired. Women also want to feel desired but again, I dont think that it trumps their need to feel pampered.

And pampering doesnt need to cost lots of money. A $10 bottle of wine and free tix to Shakespeare in the Park can feel like pampering without costing lots of money. A picnic lunch and a walk/hike. A dinner you make at your home followed by a snowball fight, hot cocoa is a great date. Planning and paying doesnt mean going broke. Women are impressed by effort. It doesnt have to cost much. And when we feel that you are making an effort, we are happy and we take all that happiness and give it back to you in bed. It’s pretty simple to please us just make some effort and we are happy.

Why is this concept soo hard for men on this board / In nyc / and in general to understand????

OD — glad you got a giggle out of it. It is funny in retrospect… but gosh was very awkward and just plain yucky while it was happening.

I don’t disagree with you on the “if you’re not sure,split the check” so I didn’t mind it.

But I disagree that “women know if they are interested or not.” Many do not always “know”. Thats what the dates are for. It does not mean I or anyone else who is trying to figure it out “lacks values” — kind of an absurd statement.

” My policy is that I kiss a woman on the first date–no exceptions–unless I’m not attracted to her. That weeds out the princesses who want a free dinner while they are trying to make up their minds about me.”
— this seems like a stringent, inflexible policy and you will likely lose out on a number of women wo may not fall for you on date 1 but truly may after getting to know you more. Two of my most successful relationships were with men i did not “like like” right from the beginning. i ahve a number of friends who are now married to men or women who were not love-at-first-sight situations.

— thats absolutely not true. I sort of expected a kiss after the first date but he said “lets hug goodbye”. If that had been a normal kiss, i would have been fine with seeing him again. However, after a couple of additional dates of no romance/curting, i would have questioned the “possible cheap factor.

I understand where you’re coming from re. labelling men with repugnant terms because of a couple of instances of poor behavior or just because he was showing interest. I suppose its possible that some women do this and thats atrocious and unfair. However, most women do not do this and its dangerous to assume they do.

If you didn’t mind splitting the check, it would not have appeared in your post… And more than once to boot. Come on, the spotlight is on you because that is what you wanted… The least you can do is be honest with us and with yourself.

This makes no sense. So you are ok with paying so long as the guy kisses well, and if he doesn’t, you retroactively become annoyed about paying the bill? No, what you are actually doing is looking for *justification* for disliking this guy.

And seriously, if you feel MY comment is rude, you are on the wrong blog.

I don’t think we should be telling people how to feel. It may not have felt that way to another woman, but everyone has their own limitations on comfort. Just because they don’t align with ours doesn’t mean it’s any less significant. I have very different views from many people here and I don’t act sanctimonious about it. We all have different experiences and beliefs. I don’t think we need to act as thought their problems aren’t real or important.

If it were me, there would not have been a second date. I’ve never been asked to split a check before, so I’d be pretty shocked if it ever happened. If you don’t want to pay for dinner, don’t ask me out to one. I’d rather we have a couple of hot dogs in the park – and if I’m interested, I’d totally be game for that. One caveat to my post: we don’t know how dinner came to be. If it was her idea, I’d soften my stance a bit.

Thats exactly how I first felt. But wonderng if I need to be more flexible in this day and age — should equality in relationships be on par with equality in dating economics? Part of me feels that women earn their own salaries and are financially independent. Isn’t expecting the man to pay a bit antiquated? The other part is friustrated that women still do not earn equal pay for equal work, continue to work under glass ceilings, and continue to have to pay more for some identical services (haircuts, cloting, etc.)… so until we achieve true parity between genders, why shouldn’t the man offer to pay for the first couple of dates? Not indefinitely of course, but at the start of a courtship…?

Interesting theory. Maybe he mauled you to express his frustration that, despite all the moves toward gender equality, men still don’t get as much sex as they’d like. Just thinking out loud here, of course, it could go either way.

Are you really thinking about all of these things in between coffee and the check being dropped? I certainly don’t. He asked me to the restaurant, he pays, and that is the end of it so far as I am concerned. I don’t concern myself with all of this feminist thinking when I’m on a date. (Frankly, it seems that the women who *are* preoccupied with all of feminist check-paying thinking are all frustrated daters, but I digress.) When I have been invited out to dinner, I’m just there to have a nice time, be the best dinner companion I can be, and enjoy the company. Is it antiquated? Perhaps. I also happen to think that it is antiquated that at 41 I am regarded as less sexually desirable than I was at 25. So it goes, you win some, you lose some.

“so until we achieve true parity between genders, why shouldn’t the man offer to pay ” Two wrongs do not make a right. Part of the justification for men getting paid more is that we’re expected to support women, and your “solution” of continuing this vicious cycle is no solution at all. You can’t bitch about equality out of one side of your mouth while endorsing it from the other; either you want equality or you don’t.

I suspect the guy kissing was not kissing poorly on purpose because he contacted her later saying he sensed her pulling away. If a girl is not attracted to the guy, she is not going to enjoy the kissing as much and she will tend to exagerate how poor the experience was. It then becomes a description of her emotions at the time, not at all related to the actual events taking place. The description probably got worse and worse each time she told someone.
We keep hearing these stories of guys buying a dinner on a first date when he doesn’t even know the girl. I think things will always go better with a drink…although drinks can add up here in NYC.

@ Chester – wish I could say I exagerated the experience…. sadly, if anything I lightened it up to make it amusing instead of gross. Its true… not enjoying a kiss so much if you’re not that attracted to someone. But I’ve been kissed before by guys who I wasn’t completely into, and they were just normal kisses, just no major sparks. This kiss actually took me from curious/interested to turned off.

Everyone — can a budding relationship recover from a kissing diaster like this…?

Question…..are you always a passive participant? So you just stood there and let the guy maul your face? And you did nothing? Or did you let him make a fool of himself because you thought it would make for a better story to tell your friends? Any particular reason why you didn’t stop things and try to give him a little instruction? Oh. Right. He had your head in a vice grip.

Were Moe, Larry and Curly there to shove a pie in your face and spray you with seltzer?

Here’s my theory:

You don’t like sex very much. So being with a sexually inept guy is a plus for you, as it means you’ll have to do less sexually yourself.

I find this response pathetic, inflammatory and reeking of blaming the victim — are you just trying to be cruel or are you really that clueless? I tried to push him away, move my head back, stop allowing his tongue to enter, etc. I did not want to embarrass him or make things even more awkward by actually physically hurting him. When he began kissing my face, I thought it was over but then he went back in. It happened kind of fast. I didn’t enjoy it to say the least, and felt even more skeeved out about it afterwards. If you cannot understand this, you have no business providing dating advice.

Question…..are you always a passive participant? So you just stood there and let the guy maul your face? And you did nothing? Or did you let him make a fool of himself because you thought it would make for a better story to tell your friends? Any particular reason why you didn’t stop things and try to give him a little instruction? Oh. Right. He had your head in a vice grip.

Were Moe, Larry and Curly there to shove a pie in your face and spray you with seltzer?

Here’s my theory:

You don’t like sex very much. So being with a sexually inept guy is a plus for you, as it means you’ll have to do less sexually yourself.

Well, I am not the same person and I can tell you that your comment was unnecessarily rude and vicious.

I think most of us women have had a situation whether it was a bad kiss or an unwelcome hand that is so shocking and yet over before we can figure out the best way to extract ourselves without punching the guy in the face . I dont know about you but I try to avoid commiting felony assault on my dates, even when they are being gross, classless or clueless.

What do you suggest? She said she tried to pull away, move her head, etc …Sometimes you pull away and they pull you back in and before you can fight them off your face or chest or butt they have stopped. If you havent had this happen ever…then you must not date much or have such great luck, you outta play the lottery.

To respond to “andthatswhyyou’re single” and perhaps clarify some things:

First, I very much appreciate that you took the time to review and respond in detail — thank you. I truly like/d this guy enough to give him a chance, but not enough to be falling head over heels. It happens — not everything is black and white. Not trying to force an attraction, but no its difficult to find quality men who you can truly conenct with so honestly trying to be flexible. If i was ready to just dump him, I would not have written the letter at all. I would have just stopped seeing him.

I recognize that perhaps there were not enough details in my orginal letter, but we were very clear with each other. We had both expressed that we were interested in getting to know each other more and delighted by how much we have in common. No games.

You are correct in that I do not know the exact actual reason for his not offering to pay. And it may not be cheapness. So, in that case, it may be that he doesn’t believe in treating a woman to dinner on the first couple of dates. He certainly doesn’t express financial difficulties in selecting the restaurants for our dates (I offered a menu of choices out of which he has both times picked one of the most expensive) or making vacation travel plance. So, actually I do know enough about him to make some assumptions.

I disagree that I have posed my questions in a manner where the only reasonable answer is to give up on him. I genuinely am inetrested in a discussion about this, as I stated in my final sentences. I think its unfair to judge my intentions based on what you think I meant rather than on what I actually wrote.

— I am puzzled as to why you are jumping to me accusing him of being a predator? I said ‘I felt violated’. Definition of violated = fail to respect (someone’s peace, privacy, or rights). I absolutely felt disrespected after that incident. I did not state that this made him an ogre or predator or even a bad guy. Just that his holding my head in a way that I could not extract myself w/out doing him bodily harm left me feeling like I was not respected and a bad taste in my mouth. Literally. And I do believe that fact that he called me afterwards to talk about it (which is, as you note, a point in his favor) was evidence that he knew it wasn’t cool.

If you read my original letter, you can see by my list of questions that I have not decided anything. I was hoping for a more nuanced analysis from a resepcted dating advice columnist, not a series of assumptions and judgements. Thank you.

– I am puzzled as to why you are jumping to me accusing him of being a predator?

Here’s what you said:

Instead, he grabbed my head, pulled it forcefully towards him, and drove his tongue into my mouth. It was a very slobbery, aggressive and unpleasant experience. I tried to push him away but he held my head in a bit of a vice grip and began kissing my face — forehead, eyelid, chin, etc. just when I thought it was over, he went back into my mouth and swirled his tongue round and round in a dizzying imitation of a high school freshman at his first makeout session. He ended by planting a loud “razberry” on my cheek — so weird. He ended with “I’m glad we did that.” When I tried to respond, he asked me not to talk as that would spoil it. …I did not state that this made him an ogre or predator or even a bad guy..

Pulled, grabbed, drove, forcefully, aggressive, vice grip. Those are the words you chose to describe this experience. You didn’t have to say the word “predator.” Your intentions were QUITE clear.

I tried to push him away but he held my head in a bit of a vice grip

If a man EVER took a hold of my like that, I wouldn’t even question whether or not I should see him again. That guy would have gotten the hardest knee to the balls he’s ever experienced and I’d have literally walked over his crumpled, moaning body and not looked back. Someone who behaves this way IS violating you and displaying aggressive tendencies. So I’m having a hard time believing that this man actually behaved the way you’re saying he behaved as, if he did, there would be no question what the right course of action would be.

You may not think you have decided anything, but you have. It’s alarming to me that you could read or write this letter and not hear the accusations you are making.

I stand by what I said — it is indeed what happened. “Pulled, grabbed, drove, forcefully, aggressive, vice grip” in the context i used those words do not = predator. They are specific and accurate descriptors of a 1 minute experience. I did not have as strong a reaction as you say you would have had because his actions were not malicious. It was a horrible kiss gone awry and I am certain he thought he was being playful and maybe even “macho” by taking a strong lead. He probably does not know how yucky it actually felt, but he was intuitive enough to see that it had bothered me. So I am trying to not see things in black and white. Whats alarming is that you do.

You are certain he thought he was being playful? Macho? I think he knew what he did was aggressive, weird, and out of line – ” When I tried to respond, he asked me not to talk as that would spoil it.” He didn’t want you to say anything out of fear you would call him on it . Something’s wrong here Parvati. Do you not see that?

You were there, I wasn’t. If some guy held my head in a vice gripe on our 2nd date, I would not want to see him again period. I’ve had experience with a violent man and to me this would be a gigantic red flag. You have to really examine this incident and decide for yourself…was he really just a bad kisser, or was he letting you get a glimpse of something else? Again, you were there, I wasn’t. What do you really think?

I’ve only been on this blog for just a few days, and I”m surprised at how things are said on the blog. I agree that the OP is on the insensitive side, and is encouraging women to minimize little red flags.

It seems that the OP herself is still single, if I’m not wrong. I had a friend that said “Don’t listen to the advice of dating experts that are still single. Ask someone who is happily married.”

Thanks Selena — this is helpful to further my thinking. Need to reflect some more — but right now think that it could have almost bordered on violent but not quite. However, it is possible it could be an indication of more virulent behavior in the future. Not sure if I should speak to him about it (and either cut it off or give him another chance based on conversation) or just give up on him now.

Honestly, going Dutch aside, I wouldn’t date the guy again simply because of his handling of the good night kiss. He seems like he’s pretty controlling (picking the restaurant, determining the portion, which if you are paying for your meal pay for your meal. If you got exactly the same dish it would be $45 each. Otherwise, itemize). Then the way he handled a kiss. This is a man with many years on him. At some point, has no one told him that he sucks at kissing? Doubtful. Also, unless he’s only watching torture porn, any moron would know a small kiss is probably the best way to start off. Has he not seen one romcom?

Listen OP, it’s your choice. I like a “gentle” guy. I would have pushed him off and left or slapped him. Like I said, we all have our limits. That kiss would have scared me the way you describe it. I don’t care what anyone thinks. Everyone has their limit.

@Dimplz — thanks — very reasonable response. That does seem like it could be a pattern of being controlling and thats not a good sign.

— This is exactly what I was wondering — is this the reason he’s never been married??? And perhaps no one has ever told him. Very sad

— I agree — I prefer someone more gentle. Until the makeout, he hadn’t been particuarly domineering though. The kiss did scare me a little… but I am of the mind that he really didn’t know how awful it actually was.

Everyone — IF I were to give him another chance (and not leaning towards another chance at this moment) , whats a good way to handle a discussion about the kissing episode?

Was he drinking? Not that it makes it ok but could explain things. If you don’t want to give up on him yet i would call him up and ask him “WTF was that?”. Make him explain himself. say that you felt awkward and uncomfortable and does he always initiate a first kis in that way. if he aplologizes and tries to make amends in some way maybe it can be salvaged. if he just gets defensive or doesn’t try to see it from yur pov, then dump him.

I agree with Moxie, something’s not quite adding up here. It could be a particular ethnic context of relations & meanings that are read one way ‘inside’ the community, and another way by ‘outside’ observers. Which may be part of the interaction here. I also agree that perhaps both of them are somehow inexperienced in relationships despite being middle aged. I also suspect that there’s several other factors running simultaneously here too. The OP’s questions are seemingly pretty naive for someone middle aged, and are not quite culturally aware. Be that as it may, fish or cut bait Ms. P. If you’re seeking some more ‘gentle expression’ of physical desire? They make guys like that. They’re just not often high powered executives, and if they are, they’re already married. Cheers, ‘VJ’

Based on her name, I would assume she’s from an ethnicity where dating isn’t the norm. The white Westerner has parents that teach him or her dating skills, whereas immigrant families may prefer aranged marriages. You say she’s culturally aware, but you also need to be aware of how other cultures work too.

” If you’re seeking some more ‘gentle expression’ of physical desire? They make guys like that. They’re just not often high powered executives, and if they are, they’re already married. Cheers, ‘VJ’”

I don’t know where you live, but I see plenty of unmarried attractive men that are respectful towards a woman’s boundaries (I’m with one). If you carry yourself as a woman that won’t put up with any nonsense, you’re going to attract men who respect that.

This isn’t an issue of cultural differences or boundaries not being respected. This woman was offended that the guy didn’t pay her share of the tab, so she decided to paint him as a predator to help her deal with her bruised ego. Someone who feels threatened doesn’t go back to the person they felt threatened them, nor do they write long winded letters asking for “advice.” Someone who is telling the truth also doesn’t create multiple usernames so she can not only defend but talk to herself.

I met someone who was both cheap and a bad kisser. And guess what? He stayed a cheap, bad kisser through out our two years, and it bothered me as much after two years as after two dates.
He may have other great traits, but those two will never go away and they will continue to bother you no matter how much you try to ignore them.

When I read “As a feminist…” I thought “this should be good.” When I read OP’s call-out of two different comments as “offensive,” I thought “this should be better.” Then, when Moxie finally points out that OP/Alissa/Ron are all, er, samefriending, I thought “this cannot get better.”

Then OP continues samefriending, and forehead slaps ensue.

Moxie, OP should be encouraged to share more of her thoughts and experiences on the dating market, for an invaluable – albeit unintended – service is being fulfilled here.

IMHO this guy is a control freak, period. Unless you enjoy being dominated, (some women do and that’s OK, if you’re into it), you should probably cut bait and find a guy who’s less aggressive/macho in his approach to women.

Bad kissing is a straight up dealbreaker for me. I think he is just a plain old bad kisser and can’t say that I would read too much into the agressive aspect. Cheap I can work with. However, I can’t conitnue to date a man if he is a bad kisser.

I think a number of women are willing to give a guy more chances than they should when they think he’s a good catch, or on paper, he’s what they think they should be looking for even if they’re not attracted. Instead of asking themselves “why is this guy single when he brings so much to the table?” (assuming it’s not just a timing issue of recently exiting another relationship) they think “I’ve got to snag him before someone else does.”

If the guy doesn’t bring snaggable *or* shaggable qualities, then he’s not going to get another chance when behaving that badly. But then again, if a woman does something to kill a guy’s sexual interest, she’s not going to get another chance either. As we’ve discussed here often, a women can have an impressive career or great personality, but that’s not something that guys value nearly as much as compared to whether they want to do her or not.

OP, I don’t mean to sound unkind, but I sense a fair amount of social uncertainty from both of you? Of not being very confident in social situations? Because some not too cool stuff is going on…

I have to say I am surprised at his insistence on splitting the check, somewhat unusual for his age range. The cheap tip is a huge turnoff IMHO.
The weird forceful kiss with the raspberry? And forbidding you to speak after? From a 40 something yr old man?
This all sounds like a bad date sitcom.

What an interesting conversation.
This guy is over 40, he really should know how to give a decent, soft first kiss.
At first I thought this guy had no interest and was just taking advantage of his first and last kiss with Parvati to try out something stupid. But his email later suggests he just made a mistake.

I hate when girls take one mistake and assume that the guy will always act the same way. Or don’t tell him about it so he can improve (either for her or for whomever he meets in the future). People genuinely want to improve themselves as long as they are advised and not told.

From a Gallup study of kissing behavior. “Bad kissing is a deal-breaker.”

Gender Differences:
Overall, a good kiss appeared more important to women than men. The study indicated that women use kissing to judge a date or mate more than men.

Men, in contrast, were found to be somewhat less picky with their make-out partners. However, they were also found to be more passionate. Men prefer open-mouthed, tongue-included, wet kissing more than women.

Some of the comments here are questioning. If you feel uncomfortable and feel as if your boundary is disrespected on your date, you respect your feelings Period. She tried to push his head away, but he didn’t get the hint. He forcefully grabbed her head, which be unacceptable to a lot of people. Expressing physical interest isn’t the same thing as being pushy to the point where you make the person feel uncomfortable.

From what the letter states, she knows in her heart that he’s not the man for me. Walk away and move on. Your gut instinct is there to warn you. If you want a man that isn’t aggressive on the first date, there’s plenty of gentle men out there. Don’t let anyone guilt you into having standards and preferences. There’s someone that will respect them once you set the line.