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What's going on there? If the media wasn't outside the royal vagina 24/7, I may have heard more about this and the gay history there. I guess I will actually have to research it.

Has there always been a big anti-gay movement there? Here, we see anti-gay groups using religion, usually. But, from what I've read, most Russians rarely go to church, if at all. And, there is thought to be a much higher number of atheists there. I've always read religion isn't that important there-- the whole godless thing presidents and congressmen would say about them. I do think people here use religion for cover. Duh. I have always thought the Phelps leader was covering for some gay thoughts or actions and he just uses religion as a means to that end.

Has there always been a big anti-gay movement there? Here, we see anti-gay groups using religion, usually. But, from what I've read, most Russians rarely go to church, if at all. And, there is thought to be a much higher number of atheists there. I've always read religion isn't that important there-- the whole godless thing presidents and congressmen would say about them. I do think people here use religion for cover. Duh. I have always thought the Phelps leader was covering for some gay thoughts or actions and he just uses religion as a means to that end.

Religion? really?

Gay rights parades are banned in Moscow, There is a hundred year ban on them, or something crazy like that. In the eyes of the govt and police they were violating the law. People who think Russia is on the brink of being a progressive democratic type country are mistaken. Ptuin and co are trying to dial back the clock. Dont let them kid you, Putin gives tacit approval to the Moscow mayor to ban these parades.

I watched a documentary last winter (don't remember what it was called) about how secretive the gay activists have to be to protest and rally. The planning and timing was extensive and they also had to come up with a plan "B" should something go wrong.Even though Putin is a putz (to be kind), at least todays technology helps keep the spirit alive.

Those photos revealed pure hatred. Important to show the world.Thanks for the post Ted!

And yes, Harvey's op-ed was scary!

Those in power in Russia seem to be 50 years behind the times. Unfortunately there are many other countries that fit the same bill.

Why is it so unrealistic that religion wouldn't play a part in this. Even in Russia? I'm not AGAINST religion but many use it around the world to promote intolerance, including some religious folk in Russia.

Why is it so unrealistic that religion wouldn't play a part in this. Even in Russia?

Show me the connection.

This is more of Russia being Russia than anything else. I totally see it in US, just not in this particular case in Russia. Intolerance can exist outside of religion. Although i will admit I know not a whole lot about religion in Russia...so learn me.

What I do know is that the US, EU, UN have been silent. The US should not participate in the Winter Olympics (nor should the eu countries), that won't happen of course. The media will largely ignore the issue.

It does put things in prospective, while much of the industrialized western world has been fighting for marriage equality this has been occurring out of the spotlight.

This is more of Russia being Russia than anything else. I totally see it in US, just not in this particular case in Russia. Intolerance can exist outside of religion. Although i will admit I know not a whole lot about religion in Russia...so learn me.

Ya know, you picked out the religious connection from Ted's post. Not me. And now you want me to show you the connection. Really? ??

PS- I don't want to take away from the main topic here with discussing religion but I do believe it plays a part. peace?

Re read Teds post hun. He brought up the idea that religion may be behind this

to the other point, I would wholeheartedly support a Olympic boycott, I would be ashamed if we didnt.

-W

I know hun but you brought it up as a point of contention. That's all I'm saying. If you don't know yourself how religion might play a roll in Russia, why would you point it out? I think it (religion) plays a part in gay discrimination world wide... including Russia.Agreed? Maybe not but that's is far as I am going here. Peace?

I thought the Republicans already have boycott Olympics on their to do list, for "that traitor" Snowden, and just, well you know, fuck the Russians.

I am no fan of the Olympic Committee nor all the .1%'ers who make billions off of these games siphoned from local taxpayers...

But I believe one of the principals of the Olympics is that its athletes competing in friendship and "good sportsmanship" and boycotts are the wrong gesture. Why boycott what is supposed to develop multicultural respect and cooperation? Plus it hurts the athletes...

Logged

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

But I believe one of the principals of the Olympics is that its athletes competing in friendship and "good sportsmanship" and boycotts are the wrong gesture. Why boycott what is supposed to develop multicultural respect and cooperation?

And Sochi is a deplorable location for an Olympics, seeing as its a potent symbol of the Circassian genocide.

Its very easy to politicize the Olympics but maybe the spirit and ideal is to keep politics out of this one event.

Needless to say, if there was agit prop to boycott the Olympics because of the gay crackdown, it would bring attention to the crackdown and that's a good thing, and if the boycott actually happened, I wouldn't object or shed a tear...

The Olympics are mostly vile affairs, except for the athletes themselves...

Logged

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Church is another instrument in the hands of authorities, like TV and press.It is totalitarian country, every aspect of social life is under government's control.In communistic Russia popes collaborated with KGB, informed on their parishioners. Ex-KGB agents were appointed to the leading positions in church. So Russian church has very little in common with religion it is MUCH closer to politics. USSR collapsed, but KGB agents system remained. This system let Putin to take control over the country.

Church uses propaganda not physical power. Nazi and chauvinistic organizations are on the leading roles on the anti-gay marches. This organizations are often created or controlled by government. But common members don't know this.

Soviets were officially atheist for 75 years and still hated gays. I lived in the Red Belt (sort of like the Bible Belt but for Communists). Even in 1999, they were mostly atheist (and Buddhist) with Orthodox and Baptists (yes, they're everywhere) not far behind. They still hated gays. Though I did come out sort of, and I'm alive. So.

Re read Teds post hun. He brought up the idea that religion may be behind this

to the other point, I would wholeheartedly support a Olympic boycott, I would be ashamed if we didnt.

-W

Actually, I said I was confused about religion being used in Russia, because I've always read and heard they aren't all that religious. If anything, I was suggesting I couldn't see how this was religiously fueled, because the country has been known to be atheist and the Russian orthodox folks rarely attend church, from all I've read.

boycotting the Olympics is, IMO, a bad thing to do. All it does it punish US athletes who have devoted the last 4 years of their lives to this goal. If an individual wishes to boycott, go for it -- but for the US gov't to stop athletes from going is just not right. If a boycott would cause the games to move, that would be one thing -- but we know that isn't going to happen -- logistically it would be impossible. So, to what aim is a boycott??

boycotting the Olympics is, IMO, a bad thing to do. All it does it punish US athletes who have devoted the last 4 years of their lives to this goal. If an individual wishes to boycott, go for it -- but for the US gov't to stop athletes from going is just not right. If a boycott would cause the games to move, that would be one thing -- but we know that isn't going to happen -- logistically it would be impossible. So, to what aim is a boycott??

I agree ... As somebody already pointed we haven't achieved equality here in the states . If we had equality and a clean record in our own country then yeah , boycott because it is just that important . As it stands it would be rather hypocritical for our government to take a stance like that since hate filled speech is coming out of congress almost on a daily basis directed at the LGBT community .

Boycotting the games is not the answer to anything. What would affect change, is for the IOC, to tell any country that passes such laws, that you will be unable to hold any Olympic games, until such laws are rescinded. The idea that the US or other governments should be blamed for boycotting the games, when it's the responsibility of the IOC to hold host countries responsible for promoting tolerance.

Boycotting the games will do nothing to hurt Russia, but thousands would be crushed by such a decision. It's time the world started to stand against such intolerance and there are many ways to force compliance, otherwise your country simply will no longer, EVER host another Olympic event.

How does the government make that decision anyway? I thought it was separate from the government?? I thought I remember last Olympics talk about how our athletes don't get any federal funding. I know Carter made the decision we wouldn't compete, but I still wonder how the president or Congress can even make that call.

We don't have full equality here, but we also are not being beaten and arrested. We can discuss till the cows come home how gay we are. Johnny Weir says he will compete and will be his "fabulous gay self." He says he feels the Olympics should not be used for political statements. What about human rights statements? Would we still compete, in a country where gays were put to death? Would we compete where women are stoned? Just posing the question. I am not sure how I feel on a boycott. I do think if there was extreme Christian persecution, we would already have announced we weren't coming.

Just watched GMA from this morning, and hadn't heard this yet elsewhere. They were saying Russia is having a change of heart. Awwww... They say they will do the politically correct and tolerant thing, and not enforce these laws on visitors or athletes. Something happened overnight, I think. If this is even true.

Oh, I like how they fully admit they are NOT politically correct and tolerant with their own citizens.

Boycotting the games is not the answer to anything. What would affect change, is for the IOC, to tell any country that passes such laws, that you will be unable to hold any Olympic games, until such laws are rescinded.

People can also share their displeasure with the IOC on their Facebook page at

Russia also recently passed a "anti-blasphemy" law. The original draft bill arose out of the fallout over the infamous Punk Prayer performed by the protest group Pussy Riot in Moscow’s main cathedral in February last year.

Under the revised bill, Russians would face a year in jail for "intentional" and "public" displays that cause "offense to religious sensibilities,” down from three in the previous draft; desecrating religious sites and paraphernalia would be punishable by up to three years in jail...

Russia also recently passed a "anti-blasphemy" law. The original draft bill arose out of the fallout over the infamous Punk Prayer performed by the protest group Pussy Riot in Moscow’s main cathedral in February last year.

Under the revised bill, Russians would face a year in jail for "intentional" and "public" displays that cause "offense to religious sensibilities,” down from three in the previous draft; desecrating religious sites and paraphernalia would be punishable by up to three years in jail...

Only 13% may say they're non-religious or atheist, but many religious people aren't all that serious about it and varieties of religion abound in Russia. Just like here.

Religion is in this case a tool of the power brokers (the Kremlin and the oligarchs), not a power broker itself, though that may change inasmuch as religion is a tough thing to control once you spark a people's imagination for it.

Any people needs symbols - even we have them as poz people, though they're rather weak as icons of community as we are a rather loose community separated by more than just distance and united only by a virus and some shared stigma.

The Orthodox church is being co-opted as a symbol for the Russians (the citizenry, not the ethnicity) to gather around now that their recent heroes are disgraced or seen as imperfect. Imagine if we found out embarrassing things about Washington and had to remove him from the canon. They lost much more than that and have been searching for a two decades for symbols of what it means to be "Russian". Lenin, though he has a soft spot in many people's hearts, is too tied up with the Revolution. Some have tried to employ Stalin in this capacity ("Not One Step backward" brand vodka, anyone?), but that isn't to Putin's liking. The Romanov's? Catherine the Great? We're really reaching here, and she was Prussian anyway. He sees the Orthodox church as a better candidate. Personally, I'd recommend he capitalize on the fact that Russia until recently had a respect for what you'd call the literati and intelligentsia, not to mention a rich cultural heritage that puts most other countries to shame. This is what truly ties Russians (российские) together. But religion is easier.

Even though many may say they're 'religious', not all Russians are Orthodox, or even Russian (rusские) for that matter. Though the number has been reduced, there were 89 subjects of the Federation at the turn of the millennium, and not all of the people in the 'brotherhood of nations' are all that keen on the Orthodox church or the Kremlin. Things may go Putin's way in the short run, but co-opting the church as a symbol of the state will only lead to sectarian rife and division down the road, and no simple reduction to the number of subjects will be able to fix that problem.

Oksikoko, any ideas where this anti-gay sentiment is coming from? It seems pretty serious.

I think for the root of homophobia in Slavic cultures, you'd have to go back pretty far. But what's different here is that for the past few years there has been explicit multi-level government approval of stigma and discrimination against the mildest "displays of homosexuality" or support for homosexuality. The anti-gay laws didn't spring up yesterday, and only the Sochi Olympics are really bringing much mainstream international attention to the plight of gays in Russia. If the government by non-action says it's OK to beat them up and kill them, and the government says actively that gays (even friends of gays) are questionable citizens, why wouldn't a right-wing nationalist, for instance, go find a gay to beat up or kill for the motherland. It's a logical step if you follow that sort of logic.

There's also a lot of muzhik drinking behavior in Russia. There's also a lot of economic trouble/poverty which creates a need for psychological release in many people. There's also a crisis of masculinity in Russia (http://homepages.warwick.ac.uk/~syrbe/gww/paper-ashwin.pdf). There's also a demographic crisis - the population is plummeting, and male life expectancy is somewhere in the 50s. There's also etc. etc. etc. But all societies have troubles. Ultimately, it's the government sanctioning of such behavior that leads to what we see today.

What there's not is a strong demand from any trusted authority figure stating that attacks, discrimination and stigma be stopped. Not church, not government, not third sector, at least not from any 'trusted by Russians' part of the third sector, which itself is suspect. Moral authority plus time is all that's needed.

George Takei has asked followers to repost this pic of Putin. I've seen some change their Facebook pics to this. I don't like the idea. It seems to elevate Putin. Plus, I've always had issues comparing people to Hitler. I didn't like it when it was done to Bush and don't like it, when people do it to Obama. What do you guys think? The arguments I've heard that it is okay to compare Putin to Hitler is that he's had journalists and dissenters murdered, and he is now basically rounding up a certain group of citizens-- looking the other way, when a gay person is killed, because the perp is rarely punished.

By the way, Just thought you'd like to know, I read a lot of Russian press, and I've never seen LGBT topics come up as much as they have lately. If nothing else, all this buzz has gotten Russian society talking at least a little more about LGBT issues. The Russia-based-but-English news sources I read mention it more than the Russian ones, but still...

Boycotting the games is not the answer to anything. What would affect change, is for the IOC, to tell any country that passes such laws, that you will be unable to hold any Olympic games, until such laws are rescinded. The idea that the US or other governments should be blamed for boycotting the games, when it's the responsibility of the IOC to hold host countries responsible for promoting tolerance.

Boycotting the games will do nothing to hurt Russia, but thousands would be crushed by such a decision. It's time the world started to stand against such intolerance and there are many ways to force compliance, otherwise your country simply will no longer, EVER host another Olympic event.

Well, YouTube took it down, as a violation of their TOS. I'm not sure how I feel about that. On the one hand, I don't like the idea of giving people like this a forum. But, on the other hand, these things are happening, and seeing something makes people care more, than just reading about it. For someone like Jeff, I could see why you wouldn't need or want to see it. You know what it is, and you understand the issue. For others, they need to see how bad things are before it has an effect on them.

Well, YouTube took it down, as a violation of their TOS. I'm not sure how I feel about that. On the one hand, I don't like the idea of giving people like this a forum. But, on the other hand, these things are happening, and seeing something makes people care more, than just reading about it. For someone like Jeff, I could see why you wouldn't need or want to see it. You know what it is, and you understand the issue. For others, they need to see how bad things are before it has an effect on them.

Yeah , I agree . I'm a news junky and I'm aware of the horror of what's happening there . I find a I get older I lose that morbid curiosity I had years ago where I couldn't help clicking on anything offered . Two girls and cup went a long way in teaching me the you don't have to click on everything , once seen it cant be unseen .

Wentworth Miller, star of "Prison Break," comes out as gay and declines Russian film festival invitation. Good for him. I had some prison fantasies about him, but I never figured him as gay. My gaydar is seriously broken. Or, just more proof that you can't always go on stereotypes. I was surprised to learn Glenn Greenwald, the journalist covering Snowden, is gay. When news of his partner being detained under UK anti-terror laws for 9 hours of questioning was reported, I was surprised. It is good to see anyone come out, but good when they are high profile. It is troubling so many Russians are now fearful of being open, because it could mean their lives and livelihood.

I had heard years ago that one of the Prison Break was gay and was excited to think it was Dominic Purcell but my friend said it was the other guy. I don't know why I got excited... like I would calling up Dominic Purcell. I'm glad Wentworth Miller declined the invitation and publicly stated why.

This article comparing the current situation in Russia to US history with "Separate but Equal" appeared in the St. Petersburg Times and the Moscow Times, two Finland-based, English-language papers covering those cities for expats. (I mean to say these aren't local staples like, say, The NY or Washington Times might be said to be.) Thought some of you might be interested.