December 30, 2008

Football and men’s basketball players on the nation’s big-time college teams averaged hundreds of points lower on their SATs than their classmates, and some of the gaps are so large they call into question the lengths to which schools will go to win.

The biggest gap between football players and students as a whole occurred at the University of Florida, where players scored 346 points lower than the school’s overall student body [out of 1600 points, or about 1.5 standard deviations]. That’s larger than the difference in scores between typical students at the University of Georgia and Harvard University.

Hmmhmm, isn't Florida playing in the national championship game next month? Could there be a connection?

Seriously, one aspect of this that gets overlooked is that the average SAT scores at many state flagship schools have risen significantly over the last generation. For example, football players at Florida average 890, but U. of Florida students average 1236 which is pretty good. (Old timers who took the SAT before the fall of 1995 should subtract 110 points from these glitzy new scores to adjust them down to the harder scoring standards prevailing in their days.)

An 890 really isn't that bad. That's probably about the national average, if you included all the students who don't bother to take the SAT or ACT. (Am I right about that?). I suspect, however, that a lot of prize recruits took the SAT four or five times, and had lots of drilling in it.

Nationwide, football players average 220 points lower on the SAT than their classmates — and men’s basketball players average seven points less than football players.

Those figures come from an Atlanta Journal-Constitution study of 54 public universities, including the members of the six major Bowl Championship Series conferences and other schools whose teams finished the 2007-08 season ranked among the football or men’s basketball top 25.

While it’s commonly known that admission standards are different for athletes, the AJC study quantifies how wide the gap is between athletes and the general student body at major universities.

Georgia Tech’s football players had the nation’s best average SAT score, 1028 of a possible 1600, and best average high school GPA, 3.39 of a possible 4.0 in the core curriculum. But Tech’s football players still scored 315 SAT points lower on average than their classmates.

At the University of Georgia, the average football SAT was 949, which is 239 points behind the average for an undergraduate student at Georgia — and 79 points behind Tech’s football average. The Bulldogs’ average high school GPA was 2.77, or 45th out of 53 teams for which football GPAs were available. Their SAT average ranked them 22nd.

Nationwide, coaches who would never offer a scholarship to a player who was 6 inches shorter or half a second slower than other prospects routinely recruit players whose standardized test scores suggest they’re at a competitive disadvantage in the classroom.

It’s the price of winning.

“If you’re going to mount a competitive program in Division I-A, and our institution is committed to do that, some flexibility in admissions of athletes is going to take place,” said Tom Lifka, chairman of the committee that handles athlete admissions at the University of California, Los Angeles. “Every institution I know in the country operates in the same way. It may or may not be a good thing, but that’s the way it is.”

UCLA, which has won more NCAA championships in all sports than any other school, had the biggest gap between the average SAT scores of athletes in all sports and its overall student body, at 247 points. ...

Black athletes’ average SAT score was 102 points lower than the average for black students overall. White athletes’ average SAT score was 88 points lower than the average for white students overall. One expert says those numbers suggest schools are motivated by money, not affirmative action. If universities were motivated by affirmative action, they would enroll black students whose qualifications give them a better chance to succeed in class, rather than athletes whose skills help the school sell football and basketball tickets, said Allen Sack, director of the University of New Haven’s Institute for Sport Management and a former University of Notre Dame football player.

“The black athletes are far more represented in football and basketball, the two sports that produce the most revenue,” Sack said. “Is there exploitation going on? I would suggest there is.”

Sack said universities might be exploiting those athletes who enter with inferior academic credentials, even if athletes as a whole graduate at a higher rate than non-athletes. “The athletes should all be graduating at a higher rate than the student body because they have the incredible advantage of having tuition, room and board paid for them,” Sack said.

The most recent Division I data showed black athletes in men’s sports outperforming black men’s graduation rate overall, 48 percent to 38 percent, and black athletes in women’s sports outperforming black women’s graduation rate overall, 66 percent to 50 percent. For white women, the graduation rates were 74 percent for athletes, 67 percent overall. The only large group in which athletes underperformed: White men, with athletes graduating at 61 percent and students as a whole at 62 percent.

46 comments:

Anonymous
said...

Shocking news: College football

Here is a related observation:

In their bid for cultural revolution through the social mechanism of sports, the great challenge for the football mandarins (from high school coaches to college administrators to pro franchise owners) is how to achieve the marginalization of the white quarterback.

Because the quarterback position requires a particular package of skills: well above average height, well above average IQ, far above average visual-spacial abilities, far above average off-field and on-field mental discipline, far above average decision-making/risk assessment abilities, above average x-factor creative abilities, above average physical toughness/courage, far above average emotional control, and above average leadership qualities.

The career rewards for the professional quarterback make it one of the most desirable positions in modern society. It provides very high pay and very high social status. Men of all races covet the position; it remains a dream job.

But Asians, Jews, blacks and Hispanics all fall short (per capita) in rounding out the total package. It is the white male who best fills (per capita) the quarterback job description. Unfortunately, this racial reality is out of step with the modern zeitgeist.

In response the football mandarins have been working hard to 'evolve' the quarterback position itself in order to tilt the advantage away from whites. All done, of course, in order to achieve 'positive change' in this important area of society that has a strong psychological effect on children and young adults (male and female).

After all, the football quarterback is the archetype 'leadership male'. He is always Team Leader and frequently The Captain. He represents the embodiment of Courage & Brains. He is the Field Marshal, The General and the usually The Heart & Soul of The Cause.

The implications of a single race dominating this position in a 'multicultural society' are obvious. Therefore the status quo simply can't be allowed to continue.

Shocking news: College football and basketball players not as smart as their classmates

The Vince Young Story went all pear-shaped in 2008.....but he's only 25 years old......maybe there's a Cinderella ending up ahead for Mr Wonderlic.

Or maybe that really old really _____ really slow backup QB for the Titans is going to win the Super Bowl......ugh.....if that happens the NFL honchos will be so embarrassed.

I remember when Michael Jordan closed out the Finals with four _____ dudes supporting him......four......Charles Barkley and a lot of other players understood why that worked.

Factoid: Patriots and Colts are two of the _______ teams of the past decade. Shocking is right!

But ask the owners of...say..the Vikings: the thing to do is win the argument by not even having a _____ sitting at the table. Just keep flooding the system at the lower levels and eventually the seats around the table at the top level will reflect the desired outcome.

I did grad. school at Ohio State. People here are crazy about the fact that OSU has beaten Michigan several years in a row. But that's most likely due to the fact that Ohio State's academic standards are much lower than Michigan's. They have their pick of morons to put on their team. At Michigan, their overall student body is much smarter so if they start letting in the exceptionally retarded ones like Maurice Clarett, it would raise too many suspicions.

Further South, things are even more lax.

Honestly, I'd much rather have Michigan's academics than Ohio State's football, but 9/10 OSU grads here would tell you different.

Alumni and the Press demand wins. Students demand wins. Prime recruit candidates demand wins. It's why Football is different, winning is everything. You are what your record says you are.

Plus there is the competition. Guys who can recruit and coach winning QBs get the money, fame, adulation, and successful programs while those who don't ... don't win.

You cannot win, consistently, in either the College or Pro level without a good to great QB. That puts demands on the coaches and administrators to get the best QB they can, or someone else will do so and play their way into wins.

Suppose AA type QBs are instituted? You think fans, alumni, the press, and players will be happy with AA and losing?

The Black QB experiments (mostly running guys, not the classic Doug Williams / Warren Moon passers) have been spectacular failures. Michael Vick is a the biggest cautionary tale, with Matt Ryan making everyone forget (thankfully) he ever existed. Even McNabb had to morph into a passer.

“The black athletes are far more represented in football and basketball, the two sports that produce the most revenue,” Sack said. “Is there exploitation going on? I would suggest there is.”

From my point of view, it's difficult to argue exploitation in any arrangement which someone freely enters, and indeed, fiercely competes to enter. It's a little like the feminist argument that beauty contests exploit the participants. People who feel exploited by beauty contests can opt not to participate.

It also raises the question of what exactly these athletes would be doing if they weren't playing college sports. Studying finance rather than working on the toss sweep? In many cases, they'd be doing manual or retail labor for very little money and nothing in the way of glory.

Athletes often see big-time college programs as an opportunity to improve and display their talents to the professional leagues. That few of them will ever play professionally is well known, but there are lots of young people studying acting, painting, and creative writing (without a scholarship) who are never going to make a living at these pursuits either. The entertainment industry (and that's what pro sports is) weeds out most aspirants before they ever see a paycheck. And lots of athletes who have little chance of playing profesionally do in fact get some educational benefit, some credential (however dubious) and some public exposure, all of which will increase their chances of landing a decent job later on.

Steve, I think you once floated the idea of having an "academic" university league composed of schools where the athletes are actual students in real college programs, not "Recreation Studies" and the like. I would go one step further and suggest that students playing in the major college programs (an "open league," lets say) be given an educational voucher that is equal in amount to four years of tutition at that institution. The athlete would not have to use it at that institution, and wouldn't have to use it while he was participating in college athletics.

In other words, he could concentrate on his dream of making it in the NBA or the NFL, or just getting drunk and chasing . . whatever. At around the age of 24, when even he realizes that he's not going to be a professional athlete, he could use his voucher to get training in whatever field and at whatever institution actually matched his interests and intellectual abilities.

It seems to me a better, and less hypocritical, deal all the way around, and wouldn't cost the universities any more money.

haha. i was going to post something similar about quarterbacks. within the last 10 years or so, the US sports media has entered into an obvious agenda of "black athletes good, white athletes bad". how strongly this idea is pushed varies by the outlet, with ESPN being the worst, SI next, and then other outfits being less bad - similar to the way you can rank the liberal bias in US news coverage. it was not always this way, as US sports coverage used to be a lot more balanced, as well as more comprehensive, covering many sports that it does not even report on anymore. i'm only 32 but the transition between 1988 and 2008 is so clear to me.

white men are good at throwing things, and throwing footballs and baseballs are the most important things you can do in the two most important sports in america. so there are lots of good white MLB pitchers (the 08 champion phillies had a rotation of 4 out of 4 white pitchers, with their best pitcher winning the series MVP), while white men completely dominate NFL quarterback despite playing in an era in which white athletes are discouraged and discriminated against at every level of the football journey.

aaron rodgers did an interview on ESPN radio this year in which he was asked how often he was told he could not play quarterback in the NFL, to which he replied "Every single day. Somebody told me I was not good enough, too slow, too short(?!)." he was not offered an NCAA scholarship after the football season ended his senior year in high school, so got his fastball up to 90 miles an hour during the baseball season, earning himself minor attention from baseball scouts. luckily before he graduated, one single college offered him a football scholarship. the numbers for his first NFL campaign (4038 yards (4th in the league), 28 touchdowns (4th in the league), 93 rating (6th in the league)) were great, and he he outplayed jamarcus russell by such a large margin it was no contest. he is also fast and athletic, able to scramble for yards when necessary. he's part of a new group of fast, athletic white quarterbacks with great arms, vision, and the ability to scramble, yet discussion of this wave of great new white quarterbacks is off limits in the sports media, unless it is to bash them. i'm now of the opinion that they are ignored on purpose, as the american sports media is using one of it's classic tactics. bad play by black quarterbacks is ignored, as is great play by any non-star white quarterback. the last thing some of these sports news outfits want to acknowledge is that there is a good white athlete on the football field. all the athletes are supposed to be black. it is now actually part of the modern american sports dialog to bash white players as not good athletes, or limited athletes, or even as just not athletic period.

two other white rookies, matt ryan and joe flacco, played so well that were they black they would be the talk of the league. sports casters would be having spontaneous ejaculations in their pants at some of the scrambles that flacco pulled off.

two other white quarterbacks, matt cassell and tyler thigpen, had never played at the NFL level before and performed very well. cassell, we were reminded again and again by the sports media, had never even started a game in NCAA football, and was probably a total joke, just another white guy who had no business stepping on the football field. were cassell or thigpen black, they would be praised and drooled over, and for thigpen there would be no doubt, simply no doubt at all, that he would automatically start in 09 for the chiefs. some of the plays they pulled off, with thigpen catching a pass and running for 40 yards and a touchdown, and cassell booting a 50 yard punt, would have caused more involuntary semen ejection in sports casters pants had the players been black. when is the last time a black quarterback even attempted to kick, punt, or catch a pass on a trick play?

two other white quarterbacks, philip rivers and drew brees, had the best seasons out of anybody in the league this year, yet they are not even discussed. brees in particular is hilariously ignored by the US sports media with the classic blackout treatment that white football players now get. he finished the 08 season with over 5000 yards and was a mere 16 yards short of dan marino's single season passing yards record! only 1 or 2 other quarterbacks have ever passed for 5000 yards in a season yet the sports media acts like it didn't even happen. had brees been black, the american sports outlets would have been covering every yard and would have started a weekly "brees watch" in november, maybe even in october.

rivers, who had the best season of any quarterback in the entire NFL, with 4000 yards, 34 touchdowns, and a 105 rating to lead the league, has been absolutely, totally ignored, and is not even mentioned in any MVP discussion - quarterbacks with lower numbers are all mentioned ahead of him. but unlike brees, we probably know why the US sports media does not like him - he talks. unlike black players, who are not only welcomed to run their mouths, but encouraged and loved for it, white players are strictly forbidden from ever saying anything. rivers has broken a cardinal rule for white players by trash talking a whopping two or three times - in his entire career. weekly BS spews forth from the mouth of dozens of black players, but this is eaten up by the white sports writer flunkies who cover them.

next up for the white-hating NFL is the nearly certain mistreatment of tim tebow.

I am reminded of former Harvard President Derek Bok, who has been condemning the pernicious effects of less intelligent athletes on campus culture, including drop-out rates and the 'dumbing-down' of the curriculum, since at least 1983.

Over the same period he has been enthusiastically supporting racial quotas that produce cognitive and academic gaps of comparable scale, essentially without acknowledgement of any drawbacks, e.g. 'The Shape of the River.'

I was at UF in the alte 80's early 90's and I knew several people (usually grad students without support from their departments) working in tutoring athletes (mostly football some basketball) so they could scrape by 'academically'. It was paid for IIRC by an officially not UF athletic fund (details now are hazy since I never worked for them).They all said the athletes were nice enough but either dumb as rocks and/or totally not interested.

The problem is that pro-football doesn't have a proper minor league and college football functions as such. The obvious solution is for a pro-minor league to be set up out of the college teams separate from universities so that the so-inclined can go straight into that and at least be paid honestly rather than bogus 'scholarships'.

It's interesting that you say that big state U's SAT score is going up. With the NAMization of America, shouldn't they be going down? The only explanation I could see for this would be if college attendance in general is dropping, or if dumb students have a greater tendency to go to a community college than big state U now (not sure if either is the case).

I'm bemused by the little spots they give the football players at the beginning of the NFL games, where they say which college they're from. Many of the black players mention their high schools instead. It would be poignant - they don't see themselves as "college men" - if it weren't so hypocritical. Without those college programs they'd never get into the NFL.

"In their bid for cultural revolution through the social mechanism of sports, the great challenge for the football mandarins (from high school coaches to college administrators to pro franchise owners) is how to achieve the marginalization of the white quarterback."

Oh yes, they're probably in one of their secret meetings with the Jews in Tel Aviv, attempting to achieve that nefarious result right now!

"All done, of course, in order to achieve 'positive change' in this important area of society that has a strong psychological effect on children and young adults (male and female)."

If nature is so important and nurture so unimportant, it won't matter to little Johnnie who Qb's the Broncos, now will it?

"Or maybe that really old really _____ really slow backup QB for the Titans is going to win the Super Bowl......ugh.....if that happens the NFL honchos will be so embarrassed."

Why would a thirteen year veteran with 35,000 yards passing taking a team to the superbowl embarrass the league when he took a team to the superbowl a few years ago?

"I remember when Michael Jordan closed out the Finals with four _____ dudes supporting him......four......Charles Barkley and a lot of other players understood why that worked."

Yeah, I've been telling people for years, MJ wouldn't have had a chance to win a single ring without Luc Longley!

"Factoid: Patriots and Colts are two of the _______ teams of the past decade. Shocking is right!"

Yeah, they're about 40% white...come to think of it, so is New Orleans!

"The Black QB experiments... have been spectacular failures."

You forgot to mention other great black quarterbacks of yore such as Dan McGuire (brother of you know who), Kelly Stouffer, David Klingler, Heath Shuler, and of course Ryan Leaf.

". within the last 10 years or so, the US sports media has entered into an obvious agenda of "black athletes good, white athletes bad". how strongly this idea is pushed varies by the outlet, with ESPN being the worst"

Yeah, I noticed all of the glowing profiles of T.O saving children from buildings and Pac Man Jones doing charity work.

"aaron rodgers did an interview on ESPN radio this year in which he was asked how often he was told he could not play quarterback in the NFL,..."

OOOh, a high school athlete that someone told he wasn't good enough to play in the NFL; STOP THE PRESSES!

"he he outplayed jamarcus russell by such a large margin it was no contest."

Both were first-round picks, Russell is in his second year with an awful franchise(missing part of his first year due to a holdout). Rodgers is in his fourth year with a very stable franchise. Russell took a 4-12 team to 5-11 this year, modest improvement, Rodgers took Favre's 13-3 NFC runner up team to 6-10 this year, and this is having the benefit of a great group of receivers, well regarded line and a RB who ran for over 1,200 yards.

To say that a Russell/ Rodgers comparison is 'no contest' would be misleading. Rodgers is better than Russel at this point but he's a darn spell better than Matt Leinert and the number one pick from the 49ers a few years ago; I've already forgotten his name.

"two other white rookies, matt ryan and joe flacco, played so well that were they black they would be the talk of the league. sports casters would be having spontaneous ejaculations in their pants at some of the scrambles that flacco pulled off."

Ryan and Flacco played well...for rookies. If they were veterans they would have been considered mediocre. Ryan had a passer rating of 87.7, Flacco's was 80.3. By comparison, Philip Rivers won the P.R title with a rating of 104.0.

Your two immortals who would have had the sportscasters "having spontaneous ejaculations in their pants" finished 9th and 23rd respectively

This, as you can see makes Ryan a 'better than average' QB, and Flacco a journeyman at best who finished behind such immortals as Seneca Wallace, McNabb, Gerrard, and even Jason Campbell.

Oh yes, Cassell, Brees Rivers and Thigpen. Good Qbs, one of them EVEN ACTUALLY MADE THE PLAYOFFS! (with an 8-8 record but who's counting.) Cassel had a great season, Thigpen, certainly were he black would have received a ton of press for QBing A 2-14 FOOTBALL TEAM!

"rivers, who had the best season of any quarterback in the entire NFL, with 4000 yards, 34 touchdowns, and a 105 rating to lead the league, has been absolutely, totally ignored, and is not even mentioned in any MVP discussion - quarterbacks with lower numbers are all mentioned ahead of him..."

And who are these "quarterbacks with lower numbers"? Chad Pennington? Peyton Manning? Brett Favre? Kurt Warner? ooooohhhhh, either you know something I don't, or these are WHITE GUYS.

"How do athletes with much lower SAT scores and the equivalent of a full time job graduate at higher rates than other students?"

How much energy, time, and life is devoted to something that, when all is said is done, is merely entertainment? What would happen if the millions of white proles ceased trying to groom their kids for the lottery-like chance of becoming just another form of clown and had them concentrate instead on taking control of their collective biological destinies? Where is it written that your male children's "heroes" have to be some guy who's good at throwing things?

The problem is that pro-football doesn't have a proper minor league and college football functions as such. The obvious solution is for a pro-minor league to be set up out of the college teams separate from universities so that the so-inclined can go straight into that and at least be paid honestly rather than bogus 'scholarships'.

The last thing the NFL wants is a minor league system like baseball. They already have it, for free no less, in the college football system. They don't want the bother of dealing with farm teams and minor leagues like the MLB.

I think the educational voucher system would be a dud as well. The current college system filters out the crap like Maurice Clarrett, both in intelligence and attitude. This is important to the NFL as well.

One point about high school football players, at least in my experience their GPAs are inflated through the classes the take. At the HSs in my system all the football players took early morning wait lifting, another class assisting in the teaching of regular gym classes, then football counted as their last credit. Three easy As to bump up the GPA.

I would like to see more asian and hispanic quarterbacks too. The obvious way is to limit their height.

I fondly remember watching Eddie LeBaron try to see over the line. He was about 5'6". He used to jump up and try to spot a receiver and get a pass off before he came back down again. It was very entertaining.

So when we limit the height of the quarterback to 5'6" we will simultaneously introduce the football jump shot and open the door for asians and hispanics.

Actually we do something like this already in boxing. We limit the weight of the boxers such as to allow asians and hispanics an opportunity they wouldn't otherwise have. There are a lot of asian and hispanic boxers at featherweight and flyweight - very damn few at heavyweight.

We need an informed consent policy for football. Every high school or college football player should be required to read the life history of Jim Otto.

This morning I took my Vicodin so I could manage to walk on my basketball blessed feet. I also thank the gods that somehow I was was wise enough not to have indulged in football when I was young. If I had I would certainly need at least two Vicodin a day for ruined knees.

Anyone who thinks ahead will have some pause before he takes up football. We accept the notion that forethought keeps many athletes out of boxing. I suggest that the same thing occurs with football.

One reason that non-football players have better academic performance must be that you have to be at least a little stupid to play in a sport as destructive to your body as football.

It's interesting that you say that big state U's SAT score is going up. With the NAMization of America, shouldn't they be going down? The only explanation I could see for this would be if college attendance in general is dropping, or if dumb students have a greater tendency to go to a community college than big state U now (not sure if either is the case).

I can't speak for the rest of country, but in the mid-Atlantic area (NJ, PA, MD and VA), there has been a lot of growth in the non-flagship campuses of the state university systems. Take Maryland as an example: Back when I went to college in the 70s, any reasonably smart HS graduate could get into the College Park (flagship) campus. The other campuses were for two groups of people: locals who could not or would not go away to school, including many older students; and HS graduates who were not very bright but wanted to go college anyway.

As the population of students wanting to go to college grew, the University was able to become more and more selective about whom it admitted at College Park. Result: Rising SAT scores and rising prestige for the school, which is now one of the better public universities in the country (if not quite "public Ivy" quality). A similar process took place in NJ and PA.

In all these states, the also-rans got shunted off to the non-flagships campuses. In turn, these campuses grew into separate universities with their own names and sometimes decent - if not spectacular - reputations. Thus, today we have Towson University where once there was just "University of Maryland Baltimore County" and Rowan University where once there was Glassboro State College.

I suspect this process has been repeated in many states around the country, resulting in rising SAT scores in the flagship schools. They are also usually the oldest and most famous public universities in their state and are usually where the big athletic teams are. Thus, the growing gap between NCAA athletes and their fellow students - it's not that the athletes are necessarily dumber (although they might be) but that the other students are smarter.

Arthur Jensen once stated in an interview* with American Renaissance's Jared Taylor that he believed there was an IQ floor of 85 for professional basketball. That would mean the basketballing segment of the black population is drawn almost wholly from the right half of the black IQ curve. Of course, that's the general population's curve; I wonder what the college-attending curve looks like.

*This statement doesn't appear in the short version of the interview in AR; it's in the transcript of the entire interview, which has to be ordered separately from them.

The problem is that pro-football doesn't have a proper minor league and college football functions as such. --Michael Farris

They don't want the bother of dealing with farm teams and minor leagues like the MLB. --Lugash

Baseball doesn't have a proper minor league either-- unless you think small cities should be vassals of larger ones. The "farm" system may leave college baseball relatively pure, but it has an odious morality of its own in other areas.

Hockey's minor (and junior) leagues are a little better on this. But I like the system in soccer, where entire teams are promoted to the major level. (No, not MLS.)

...State U. campuses... other than the flagship campus, such as U. Florida at Tallahassee. --David Davenport

Which "U of Florida at Tallahassee"-- Florida State, or Florida A&M? (The latter is "historically black", BTW.)

From http://www.cityofgainesville.org/VISITOR/AboutGainesville/GeneralFacts/tabid/341/Default.aspx :

Gainesville is home to Florida's largest and oldest university, and is one of the state's centers of education, medicine, cultural events and athletics. The University of Florida and Shands Hospital at UF are the leading employers in Gainesville and provide jobs for many residents of surrounding counties. Known for its preservation of historic buildings and the beauty of its natural surroundings, Gainesville's numerous parks, museums and lakes provide entertainment to thousands of visitors. Because of its beautiful landscape and urban "forest," Gainesville is one of the most attractive cities in Florida.

Why would a thirteen year veteran with 35,000 yards passing taking a team to the superbowl embarrass the league when he took a team to the superbowl a few years ago?

Because Vince Young, the young black QB whom the old white veteran replaced, was supposed to be the NFL's future superstar of undeniable destiny and magic, embodying TV programmed goodness and a new era of moral leadership for America.

How the hell are they going to communicate a new era of moral leadership with Old White What's His Name winning the MVP and holding up the Super Bowl trophy?!

Yeah, I've been telling people for years, MJ wouldn't have had a chance to win a single ring without Luc Longley!

Lame retort. The fact is Michael Jordan won the NBA Championship surrounded by white guys who, as a group, normally sit on the bench all around the league as flunkies due to their inferior position as determined by the meritocracy.

MJ + white quartet was the equivalent of Tom Brady being supported by ten Japanese players and winning the Super Bowl...handily.

“In their bid for cultural revolution through the social mechanism of sports, the great challenge for the football mandarins (from high school coaches to college administrators to pro franchise owners) is how to achieve the marginalization of the white quarterback.”

Some of you see anti-white cultural Marxism in everything (akin to liberal blacks seeing racism or feminists seeing sexism everywhere). The hype around black quarterbacks in the late 90s and early 2000s was not an attempt to overthrow, pillory, or impugn white males. Rather, it was an example of national speculation and consensus.

During the late 90s/early 00s, in light of the success of Charlie Ward at FSU, Donnovan McNabb at Syracuse and Philly, Michael Vick at VT, Steve McNair at Tennessee (few yards short of a Super Bowl victory), etc., college pundits, coaches, and fans simply assumed that black quarterbacks would cease as rare sights and become commonplace. Even Bobby Bowden, D-1 college football’s second most winning coach and the complete opposite of a bleeding-hearted liberal, boldly proclaimed in c. 1999 that the Michael Vicks of the world were the future of college football. Thus, the coming wave of dominant black quarterbacks was highly anticipated.

With the benefit of hindsight, we now see that this trend/fad/flavor never fully materialized. Yes, a few black quarterbacks have experienced success (Vince Young winning the NCAA title in 2005, Troy Smith taking the Heisman in 2006, Chris Leak winning the NCAA title in 2006, Jason Campbell leading Auburn to an undefeated season, and McNabb appearing in a Super Bowl). However, none has achieved parity with the best white quarterbacks like the Brothers Manning and the most impressive Tom Brady. The fervor for black quarterbacks therefore seems to be fading. Such speculation was apparently erroneous, much like the national speculation that Iraqis would gladly accept democracy and become Middle-Eastern Ohioans, that practically anybody could pay off huge mortgages on overpriced houses, that everyone could receive a legitimate college education, that oil would hit $200/barrel in 2008, and so forth. Experts and citizens alike sometimes guess wrongly.

By the way, I find it most interesting that many of you deride the hype around black quarterbacks. Last year, Steve Sailer posted a commentary in which he implied that Louisiana State University won the 2007 national title partly because its starting running back, Jacob Hester, was white. Many of you jumped on the bandwagon and eagerly assumed that Hester would usher in an era of more white running backs. To put it another way, many of you bought into the hype of the white running back based on a single example in Hester, yet you scorn the recent national hype around black quarterbacks, even though it was based on many more evidentiary examples (Homer Jordan, Doug Williams, Tony Rice, Warren Moon, Charlie Ward, Tommie Frazier, Donnovan McNabb, Steve McNair, Daunte Culpepper, Michael Vick, Jason Campbell, Chris Leak, Vince Young).

Where are all the other black F1 drivers? Where are all the black drivers in other Formulas, Indycar, NASCAR, rallying, even banger racing etc. Where are the black pit crews, car designers, engine designers and most of all the black spectators?

It looks to me like a certain group really have no interest or aptitude in this field at all apart from the odd outlier here and there and yet by some incredible chance a black guy has turned up and become top F1 driver. I mean, what are the chances of that? It doesnt hurt that he is sitting in what is probably one of the best cars, the McLaren.

Is this kid really the best driver out there, ahead of all those white boys? What machinations have taken place to get him parachuted into F1, into the top team?

Good stuffTruth is right about MJ and his supporting cast being black although Kerr and paxson hit some huge shots and Wennington and Longley filled their roles.

Disagree about Vince Young- it was obvious he would struggle in the NFL and after his rookie year ESPN was desperate for him to do well even though he still couldn't read a d or make quick decisions...all things you could tell in college...Titans were idiotic for not taking Cutler as Merril Hoge was screaming about

Ryan and Flacco are the real deal moreso Ryan (more NFL ready) but Flacco throws the best deep ball I've ever seen....and I go back to the days of the Canton Bulldogs who had Gumshoe Mcgilicutty behind center

It's foolish to hype any player on the basis of one college game. Taylor is a moron and a bust; the Titans needed a therapist to talk to the poor dear after his precious feelings were hurt. Hysterical. I suspect the estimate of 72 for Young's IQ is probably a big high of the mark.

DAJ mentioned Homer Jordan!!! great reference where is Perry Tuttle....disagree about people hyping white RB's...no one who knows football believes that was ever going to take place- Hester was good at LSU but not a difference maker...gutty tough short yardage backs aren't bthat hard to find....he is right where he should be in the NFL- capable backup, 3rd rd pick

Truth - my point was not that he might not be the best out of the current roster of F1 drivers. What I struggle to believe is that out of the pool of potential drivers attempting to reach F1, he was far and away the best.

He enters F1 and right off he is in one of the best cars, if not the best. F1 is more like horse riding, you may be great but without the right horse or car youre nowhere.

It was not one one college game, it was in the NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP game after an undefeated season, the season after he played possibly the second greatest game in the history of college football in the Rose Bowl against Michigan. That's what HR people (which is what NFL GM's are) do, they make judgements upon what they feel someone will be able to do for the company based upon what they did in the past.

So what, at this point he is a bust, let me tell you, most NFL QB's are.

NFL quarterback is probably THE MOST DEMANDING AND DIFFICULT JOB IN THE WORLD. There are roughly 3.5 billion men on this planet and roughly 9 of them can play NFL quarterback at a outstanding consistent basis, I would guess that there are a few thousand competent Nuclear Physicists and a few hundred competent astronauts.

If you intend to label Vince Young a bust what does that make Alex Smith and Ryan Leaf? From my understanding they are white.

"It was not one one college game, it was in the NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP game . . ."

Championship game=one game. Do you think every college QB who ever had an undefeated season was some kind of superman? That would admit some very questionable QBs into the pantheon.

"That's what HR people (which is what NFL GM's are) do, they make judgements upon what they feel someone will be able to do for the company based upon what they did in the past."

Yes, and they made a very poor decision. No one with eyes in his head had any reason to believe that Young was anything other than an at best mediocre QB with decent foot speed and poor defense reading abilities, ie. another Michael Vick. It was clear enough to most fans I know, myself included. Either several such busts weren't enough to teach these idiots anything, or the league really does want to make QB a "black" position.

"If you intend to label Vince Young a bust what does that make Alex Smith and Ryan Leaf?"

Busts. What exactly is the logic here? That Leaf was a bust has nothing at all to do with the question of Young. Does pointing out the failures of Leaf somehow prove that Young is not a failure? But Leaf was shown the door very quickly; no team gave him multiple seasons to "develop." Compare that to Kordell Stewart, an obvious bust who spent nearly a decade in the league, and for whom the commentary girls on the cable shows cooked up an endless series of lame excuses (not unlike what we see with Vince Young). Nor did any offense feel obliged to dumb itself down for Leaf's benefit, as has been the case with virtually every black QB of the past two decades. Why any team would draft and start a QB so stupid that the playbook has to be simplified for him is beyond me, but that is what the Titans, Raiders, Vikings, Redskins and others have done. I'm old enough to remember when, cretins like Chris Berman used to predict, within a season or two every successful QB was supposed be a Randall Cunningham clone. No such QB has ever won a championship, though I do credit Doug Williams (not an aff-a-letic QB but a pocket passer) with an excellent game in the SB he and his team won. The "black" QB style, though some whites play it as well, simply hasn't succeeded in the NFL. Slow, boring whites like the Mannings, Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer and Tom Brady continue to set the standard.

It's interesting that you think remarks like this are clever. Did either of these players need a therapist, like Vince Young?(Boo hoo, da fans be disrepekkin' me!) Did A. Young's or Leaf's team have to hire a speech coach, like the Falcons did for Vick, in a vain attempt to turn illiterate mush-mouthed ebonics into comprehensible English?

"Truth - my point was not that he might not be the best out of the current roster of F1 drivers..."

Michael Shumacher dominated F1 some years ago at about the same level Hamilton did, was he the best driver, or like Hamilton did he have a million dollar Formula One car while his adversaries were forced to drive '51 Packards?

By the way, I've always thought that the Jews put a magnet in Tiger Wood's golf ball, the cups in golf are metal right?

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