Why can't people discuss race in a productive manner?

I changed from question to forum to allow commenters to have more space to express their opinions. I initiated the question, and now forum, to discuss reactions to Michelle Obama's statement at the DNC. Her words: “I wake up every morning in a house that was built by slaves,” Should she have said that her ancestors were forced to help build the White House and their slave owners received payment?

How does Bill O'Reilly know they were fed well and had good accommodations? What did they eat? Where did they sleep?

Should slavery be forgotten? If so, does that mean that the ancestry of African Americans is not important?

I agree with you. Why can't we discuss the race issue so that we can move forward as a nation?I tried in my circle to talk about it and whenever I approach this topic, I get shut down because they always claim I can't understand them because of the color of my skin - not being black. If that is the case, I just don't see how we can make progress.

You are succinctly correct when you stated that every group has encountered prejudice in one way or another. However, there are some groups who encountered more prejudice than others. In Britain proper, the Irish endured the worst prejudice possible. The Irish were considered personae non gratae by the British. The British instituted the famine in order to starve the Irish. In the recent 20th century, there was a sign in England which stated, No Blacks, no Irish, no dogs." The Irish weren't treated well by the British at all.

Then there are the Jews. In Europe, the Jews encountered prejudice of the horrendous kind. They were viewed as separate from the rest of the population. They were blamed for any imaginable horror. They were considered to be Christ-killers. They were the blame for the bubonic plague. They were placed into ghettoes. Pogroms were instituted against them. The greatest horror came to them in World War II, when 66.66% were exterminated w/some communities wiped out forever.

Yes, all groups encountered prejudice but some groups went through a quite hellish experience. However, people unfortunately have a tribal consciousness. It is a them vs us mentality. Hopefully, humankind will one day progress beyond tribalism.

The Irish are still subject to pathetic racists jibe in the UK, sadly but at least it is merely personal, these days (still hurtful but less dangerous).

Mostly, when you look at officially sanctioned racism of the kind common in the past it is a cover for the economic exploitation of a population.

Nazi propaganda declared Slavs to be sub-human which made it easier to deal with the guilt of stealing land in Eastern Europe and enslaving the populations. British and American slavers declared Africans, Godless savages for the same reason.

Those old ideologies still linger. It helps if white people stop feeling guilt over that period (they were not even born). Without the guilt you can look at history clearly and take an optimistic view. At least a few good people like Wilberforce stood up and changed things.

There is no reason why the present population cannot make some progress too.

Obviously, it is a lot harder for the descendants of those victims of atrocities to forgive and forget.

I think guilt/shame may cause many white Americans to not want to speak of slavery or declare that Africans were involved. Africans' involvement does not justify European or American involvement?

We should be able to discuss slavery without white people feeling guilty. We should not try to make them feel guilty about slavery.

ProblemThe real problem now is the actions that flowed from slavery1. Whites who feel superior to Blacks (will not hire qualified Black people, will say derogatory things about Black people (Michelle Obama looks like a gorilla), etc. There are many hate websites on the internet.Race-Based Hate and Nazi Sites

Knights of the White Kamelia -- a branch of the KKK; boy are they pissed off!

The White Aryan Resistance -- this site by Tom Metzger, possibly America's best-known racist leader, tells what whites must do to defend themselves from the non-white onslaught. Make sure you check out their issue positions.

Aryan Nation -- another leading white supremacy group

The German National Socialist Party -- the German National Socialists once had a leader that you might have heard of. His name was Adolph Hitler. Arthur R. Butz -- this associate professor of electrical and computer engineering is the author of The Hoax of the 20th Century, arguing that the Holocaust never happened.

CODOH -- Commitee for Open Discussion of the Holocaust

Nations of Gods and Earths -- anyone can be a racist. This anti-white site claims that white people were invented by a black scientist 6000 years ago

14 Words Press -- What are the 14 words, you ask? "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White Children"

America's Invisible Empire, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan -- this group's title is as wordy as they are stupid

Stormfront -- "a resource for those courageous men and women fighting to preserve their White Western culture."

2. Whites who teach their kids to feel superior to Blacks (this is where the racism perpetuates)3. Whites who deny that racism exist

There are White people who are honest, decent people who acknowledge racism exist and speak against it. Many of these White people do things to help defy and defeat racism.

Ok. It says because the post is over two months old, I shouldn't reply unless I have new information. What I don't get is, I see stuff written 4 or 5 years ago! I can answer those. Doesn't make any sense to me

Jack, I'm very open. Many times, people don't like what others say and an argument starts. I don't argue. There are some good people here. We may disagree but that is how a conversation gets to be productive. We have to listen to each others point of view and respond honestly. We should all be respectful.

Apparently, whoever those people in your own circles are (that shut down the conversation) either did not get the memo about free speech, don't understand the concept of it, or just think they have some special claim to decide who talks about what. OR, they aren't particularly interested in making any progress . Maybe those people are just aggressive.

Then again, in fairness to them (whoever they are in your circles),; if, by any chance, you come across to them as attempting to define their personal, individual, reality/experience by (even appearing to) minimizing it and expecting them to "just move on - and let's never talk about the unpleasantness of your history/roots" then you'd be the one they view as essentially expecting them to shut up and forget that such nastiness ever happened.

Slavery aside, it's not as if things were all that great, particularly in the American South, as recently as the 1950's/1960's; and it's not as if there aren't plenty of people alive today who recall that time or whose parents/grandparents do To me, pointing out all the rotten ways so many other groups have treated throughout history misses the point OR expects too much in terms of "that was then/this is now" from people for whom Racial inequality is/has been very much a part of their own and/or family's experience/history.

I just depends on the individuals in the conversation (as far as who is being more aggressive/arrogant than the other), but I think it also happens when people have the either/or thinking such as, "If you ever mention slavery that must mean you're living in the past and blaming everything on that; while never mentioning it must mean that you don't understand what an awful thing it was".

Personally, I think either/or thinking that people are supposed to outgrow and/or be taught better about (particularly with regard to communication/conversation) is at the root of a whole lot of issues that are not resolved because people get (as you say) "shut down" if they dare to talk about one or another thing.. Well, it's either "either/or" thinking or else it's one/some people presuming to know better about "how things are" than another/some other people...

I was born in 1950. I had to sit on the back of the bus. I drank from colored fountains and went to colored bathrooms. Major department stores let colored people shop in the basement only.

Nuns had us on the floor saying the rosary when a group of white kids chased the Little Rock 9 from Central to St. Bartholomew Elementary School. When we saw white kids coming, we had to cross the street because we knew they were going to spit on us or call us n*gg*r. One day a girl said "I'm tired. I'm not going across the street." We all crossed and left her. As white kids approached her and started spitting on her, she pulled out scissors and started swinging. They chased her and a woman opened her car door to let her in.

A white lady I worked with asked me to baby sit. When I pulled up to her house, the 3 kids were frozen as they watched me park The baby girl was afraid to sleep alone so she asked me to lay beside her. When I did, she asked, "Are you a n*gg*r?" The lady was nice at work but it is obvious what she was teaching her children.

Jack, I don't think the problem is that you can't discuss race with black people because you are not black. It’s more that until you demonstrate that you at least comprehend how the world looks to African Americans, who have to deal with race every day of their lives, it’s simply not worthwhile getting into a discussion with you.

Here’s an example of what I mean. Like you, I worked for IBM. I was a development engineer and manager involved in both hardware and software design. Suppose my team was having difficulty solving some engineering problem, and a visiting marketer who once read a book on digital design wanted to start a discussion on the basic principles he thought we needed to understand in order to solve our technical problem. How much time and energy do you think we would invest in having a “discussion” with that marketer when the very “solutions” he offered demonstrated that he didn’t even comprehend the issues we were dealing with?

In your “Role Models” hub you say, “As a Conservative, I am baffled by why some in the black community seem to shun black conservatives.” IMO that fact alone demonstrates why you are not being attended to. Until you have listened enough to African Americans that you can answer questions like that in terms of how most black people see the issue (whether you agree with them or not), you are not qualified to offer solutions. Until you demonstrate that you have made the effort to gain real understanding of how African Americans see the issues you want to discuss, it’s just not worth the time, energy and frustration required to first educate you before you are in a position to offer relevant input.

Ron, he is making progress. It is always difficult to put put yourself in another man's shoes. Since you both worked for the same employer, are there instances where race related matters affected your career with "Big Blue"?

I am open to educating myself on this any time. I like to know what is it about the black experience that makes things so different. My proposed solution in general are color blind. I would tell the same advice to people of all races. That is the Conservative position. Please educate me...I really want to learn.

Jack, I'd like to suggest an article that I think begins to answer your questions about why the African American experience is different and why blacks don't gravitate toward Conservatives/Republicans. I think it gives some insight into the fact that sociological studies show that that somewhere between one-fourth and one-third of African Americans identify themselves as conservative, yet practically none of them vote Republican.

The author is a conservative black PhD student writing in the conservative National Review magazine. I don't agree with everything he says, but I think it's a very thoughtful and mostly valid analysis.

It's a long article, but here's several paragraphs to give you a flavor of what it has to say:

"There is no disputing … the GOP has a problem connecting with black voters. . . GOP attempts at black outreach are inconsistent and repeatedly undone by inadvisable strategic communication choices and a basic callousness about the black experience in America. Jeb Bush’s recent comment that he would give African Americans “hope and aspiration” instead of bribing them with “free stuff” is a prime example. This sentiment — one that casts the black electorate as a soulless and indolent bloc up for sale to the highest bidder — is as pervasive among some Republicans as it is spurious.

"Black voters remained true to their principles of civil-rights protections above all else. . . blacks supported Democrats because the Democratic party fought for equality and civil rights in the face of Republican opposition, exemplified by Barry Goldwater’s vocal disapproval of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

"Remove civil rights as an issue and blacks will be more inclined to support the party that best represents their other interests."

Ron, thanks for the referenced article. It was a long piece and I just read it. I see what it is saying and I agree. That is what I've been pushing all along. I am a conservative and I strongly believe conservative principles (not Republican) will be better for our government and for individuals of all races. I had hope we would get past the color issue by now but it should not matter. A good principle should win out based on merit along. If it can work for me, and it can work for Dr. Carson, there is no reason it can't work for anyone else.

Ron good to here from you. I am glad you made the effort to read my other hub. I want to address your criticism of my approach. What I tried to communicate is that role models matters... What I stated is a fact. When black conservatives succeed, they are not treated as heros or role models and are attacked as uncle Tom... This has been true for a very long time. Where as, Jackson and Sharpton has profitted personally from their race stirring and yet the people they claim to help have not improved under their so called leadership. This by the way is happening with the assisstance of the main street media who give them the attemtion they don't deserve. I am open to further discussion on this if you like. I also propose real solutions that will help. I am not just complaining but offer real concrete steps young people can take to improve themselves...as a retired IBMer, I have traveled all over the world and believe it or not, our country is the best in the world by far, despite our past shortcomings. This is a testament to our people and our Constitution and our character and our goodness.

Jackclee, I must agreee with ronelfan. You sound like you have made yourself an expert on a subject you know nothing about. That can sound very offensive to some people. I'm glad you chose to discuss your position here.

I appreciate everyone for not getting angry. It doesn't matter if I agree with you. I appreciate the dialog.

I'll be happy to learn what you want to teach me. What I need is also a proposed solution. Don't tell me there is none. If that's the case, there is no point discussing anything. If you present your ideas, I can argue the good and the bad and present my ideas...You can do the same with my ideas. That is how we make progress. We take the problem and dissect it and let the merit of the solutions be the guide. I am a pragmatist. That means I want to see solutions. I don't mind if it cost money. I just want to see positive results. If liberal progressive have a good idea, I will consider it and support it. However, the past has not been good on that front. The very policies have lead to the downfall of many communities including the blacks. Show me where these policies have worked?

1. Girls, all enthnicities, should stop have babies before they can afford to care for them.2. Society should stop allowing sexual behavior to be the focus. It's everywhere. a. Actresses and other social elite have have babies they can afford to take care of (Kourtney Kardashian, Jessica Simpson, etc.) AND they can afford them. b. Inner city youth see it as acceptable because of what they see. I was told I can't have students they shouldn't have sex. I could tell them they should use birth control.3. Mothers on welfare must be required to work and balance the welfare check with their pay checks.4. School rules should be followed (vulgar dress, electronic devices, gang attire, etc.)5. Parents should be required to visit classrooms and attend PTA (unless they are working) Possibly have 2 PTAs (1 for day parents/1 for night parents6. Police should be required to get to know the community they work in (some communities are successfuly doing this now. I saw it on Dr. Phil.7. Community businesses should be given tax breaks for hiring people in the community.8. Kids should have programs available after school that will teach them team spirit, collaborative skills, confidence, leadership and analytical skills. There are many fun activities that teach these.9. Teachers should be appreciated, rather than blamed because students do not come to school ready to learn. They come with nasty secrets (molestation and other abuse, homeless, hungry, moving 2 or 3 times during the school year - things people who criticize teachers DON"T KNOW)10. Possibly have uniforms and separate classes for boys and girls

The majority of inner city school problems start with parenting problems.

I agree with everyone of your proposals... That being said, where are the politicians on this? the teacher's unions? the caring parents? My ideas and proposals are not much different. It starts with discipline within the home. A home with two parents preferably married. A government that will not reward bad behavior with welfare checks...How about some positive role models.Where are the successful blacks that have made it and give back to the community? with a helping hand.

You won't hear of most of them because they are ordinary people trying to make a difference. They are not interesting enough to cover on nation-wide tv. or world-wide internet.

Also, you don't hear of the Black kids who graduate #1 in their classes. I post them on my Facebook page when I find them. Have you heard of the Black boys school in Chicago where all of the senior class was accepted into college for three years straight. That's not news. Just checked - 7th year in a row

Take any of my ideas and tell me why they are wrong? or missed the mark? Let's get specific. I'll take on any topic you choose. If I don't know the answer, I will do the research and get a solution. The answers may not always be what you want to hear...

Diane, why don't we make it easier to move forward. Why don't you list 3 things that you think I don't get about the black community? I'll take those into consideration.If I am wrong, I will readily admit it and appolgize. If, perhaps, I do know what I'm talking about, from my 60+ years of life experience, and world travels, would you at least consider what I am proposing and not dismiss them?I think this a fair arraangement.

I hope I gave you enough points to discuss. You don't need experience from all over the world to deal with people, some of which have never been to the beach. Many haven't been outside their local living area.

There have been many Black entertainers that left the United States because of prejudice and had successful careers in Europe.

As an African American I feel the vision has been lost from when I grew up. We were always asked what we wanted to be when we grew up, get an education so we wouldn't have to wash and clean for white people, and get an education so you can take care of yourself rather than depend on a no good man. Young Black people have no idea of what we went through. Many in the inner city aspire to be rappers. It is so frustrating.

Read about what happened to the black culture after it was released from slavery!!!! Thats all you need to do! This is where we, society, dropped the ball. Whoever can recommend books / literature regarding this time in history, it would be greatly appreciated.

Read!!!! GO back in time and put yourself in the position of being newly released from slavery!!! You have been nothing but a worker. Your mind is uncultivated. Your hands know only labor. Your body knows only obedience and whippings. Your soul knows only the love of your wife, kids and friends who are also used, abused and disrespected and removed from you at whim. You have been treated worse than the family dog. WORSE!!!!

Now some of the more advanced slave owners kept families together and fed them well, but those were probably few and far between…

And then you are declared free. You have no idea how to make money, how to find shelter for yourself, how to get work and how to survive. You have been kept in the dark. Now you must live in the light of freedom and independence … with a M I N D that has never learned how to survive on its own. And then add the human frailty toward prejudice, anger, confusion as far as white acceptance of blacks and having to deal with these reactions. It's not hard to understand.

And that was not that long ago in the scheme of things. On the other hand, that was a pretty long time ago. Freedom, protected by the Constitution and guaranteed for ALL, has been very beneficial to a great many.

Yes, that happened 150 years ago. What does that have to do with what is going on now?If I remembber my Bible study, the Jews were enslaved for generations in Egypt...They seem to thrive today. What's the difference?

Jew have their issues too. It is hard to get away from the past. It can be done. It must be done. It's up to individual families. They must overcome negativity. They allow themselves to be enslaved and affected by a negative mindset. It is purely imaginary, however. That is the amazing thing. They have the key to freedom and positivity and self empowerment but they don't know it. It is the problem of passing these things on generation after generation. The key of course is in realizing one's true nature: Pure and whole and a child of God. Education, self education, love of life and having interests, obtaining the skills necessary to survive in the world ... these things can be focused on. Its up to individuals, their families and their communities. I'm not advocating segregation at all. Communities generally love their own no matter who is in it.TWISI

Please don't take offense Jackclee, but when I read your comment this is what I heard: I am trying hard to pander to the race issue and convey my empathy towards AAs but they do not accept me: what's wrong with them?

I'm sorry you got that feeling but you are wrong. I am not pandering to anyone. As a Conservative, I have my principles. I am honestly trying to find a solution to our race problem that seems to never get resolved. I could easily drop this and ignore it like so many others...I am retired, living in the suburbs, far from the problems that plague the inner cities.I am financially secure and could easily spend all time playing golf and traveling and enjoy my hard earned retirement. I do some of that but I also love to write and love to tackle problems...If you read some of my hubs, I write about many topics and I have a whole hubbook on ideas of fixing things that are broken...I am working on another hub that addresses what a poor youth can do today.

The problem seems to me to be tow fold. A society that is too timid to touch this topic, like the third rail.And, the people who are most affected, the blacks. Some of whom refused to allow any conversation or suggestions for moving forward. They harp on the slavery and the injustices of the past which happened over 150 years ago. What I try to do is to not so much forget the past but forgive the past. In addition, how do we move forward to improve the situation. There is no good reason that in 2016, some people and kids have to live in fear of gun shots and violence and drugs and gangs in their neighborhoods.How do we help those people move out of that environment? There is an answer, but unfortunately, it is drowned out by BLM and OCW and the Rainbow Coalition... Meanwhile, real Conservatives like the people who I cited as role models are not b wing heard.

"They harp on the slavery and the injustices of the past which happened over 150 years ago. What I try to do is to not so much forget the past but forgive the past. In addition, how do we move forward to improve the situation.

*There is no good reason that in 2016, some people and kids have to live in fear of gun shots and violence and drugs and gangs in their neighborhoods."+1

At the end of the 2nd World War hundreds of thousands of highly skilled Black workers were laid off : Replaced by Whites returning from the war. Twenty years later forced integration ended 4 decades of slow but evolving movement towards true equality and put fifty-thousand highly educated Black teachers and professors out of work. 150 years ago what?Today the AA Community is being exploited for use as a voting block instead of a cheap labor force, and no-one including Liberals want to address the real problem.

1.1 trillion dollars in direct compensation for AA's born on or before December 31st 1964. 2.7 trillion in funding for re-establishment of families and extended families, including relocation and property awards as options.Why? To finish what was left undone 150 years ago and the injustice and repression that has persisted. I Love your posts DT.

Yummy, marinade, now I'm hungry.I just got my first hub published: Would you PLEASE go to it and give me your feed back. Does it suck or not suck. It is in Political Corruption. I don't know how to do those blue clicky things yet. The title is RNC, DNC Corruption.

Hi! IMHO, your title should be something about voting for write-in candidates and telling why.

Next talk about why Dems are a bad option (2nd par.)Next talk about why Reps are a bad option (3rd par.)Next talk about collusion/dysfunction of both (4th par.)

Conclusion, going back to encouragement to write in and tell why

Give examples people can relate to in all cases. That's were you hook them in.

Your language is colorful and fun but does not appeal to the average "Joe" who wants a straight forward read to comment on. You can give an example and then relate to one of the situations you currently address.

-------My comments based on my understanding that both parties are corrupt and having write-ins will be a solution. I really don't think write-ins will be a solution because you have to have buy-in from a huge segment of peole. Example: Most REPS and Independents HATE Trump. Suggest a well known person who should be written in.

I'd write a 2nd hub showing the strengths of that one person for write in. For it to work, you have to do a social media blitz that will catch on. It's a great idea. It might lead to appearance on a couple of shows for you.

If anything is given, at all, I think there should be guidelines. Money should not be put in the hands of people who will blow it away. If the money would have given at the time it was proposed, the United States could be a different place.

I was unaware of these things that happened after World War 2. Thank you! i will check them out.

The voting block thing does not work for me. I do know what you are talking about. It's like someone tells us all what to think. I know there are some churches that are used for political platforms. It's amazing how politicians are allowed to speak to the congregations during the church services.

Nothing insidious meant. AA's, Evangelicals, Latinos, College Students, and even Women in general are all considered voting blocks. But the corrupt political process of generic labeling and division is a subject for another blog.

I feel like "people of color" shut down with the topic of race not due to the color of the person's skin who is asking or brought up the topic, but because of the pain that was never healed that still lurks within. Especially since to most people of color, the issue still exist. I think a good place to start for non colored people interested in making an attempt to get over that conversational hurdle would be too start with - "I'm sorry!"..... I'm sorry for what my ancestors have done and for what you are still dealing with regarding racial discrimination"....... and them proceed to discuss. Years and generations of pain cannot be approached with any expectation, only with an open ear and heart, and the willingness to sympathize and help make it better.

Hi Melange! I have known white people to do that. It tore down an imaginery wall that really needed to be down for an open discussion. I think we shouldn't approach white people in anger because that cause that wall to turn to steel for some people. By doing that, you place the person on defensive and the discussion shifts to "I didn't do it!", "You are a part of it!", etc.

That is an intimate discussion that can better take place once you have gotten to know some one. You trust each other on one level but not completely. Over time, going through things, a trust relationship can develop to lead to such a discussion.

I'm thinking I should have elaborated on what I consider a productive discussion. It's good to get history out because that sets the background; however, it seems like we devolve into sarcasm sometimes.

When we keep touching wounds, we don't allow them to heal - and that's in the nutshell my message in my hub "Historical Neuroticism". It's defying the model of psychoanalysis, where the sufferers keep digging into their past and re-experiencing the past trauma, while hoping that such action will set them free. Well, African Americans are not likely to snap out of slavery, at least in their minds and hearts for as long as they keep discussing it. Racism was an idiocy of some generations that are gone forever, just like what Hitler's Germany did to Jews is not the part of our present reality.. I personally find strange the idea that nowadays Caucasians should feel "ashamed", or "guilty" for racism. In a way it's also ridiculous, because in that case they would feel guilt for something that they didn't do. Reasoning like that is similar to the one about French folks feeling "guilty" for what Napoleon did to Europe. So, if we can move on with life in case of a Napoleon, an Attila the Hun, a Hitler, and other power hungry idiots of history - why do we have to feel so stuck with racism? No one is saying that it should be "forgotten". Just like in an individual case of an adult with bad childhood memories - he doesn't have to start "denying" those traumatic experiences as past events of his life, but he doesn't have to let them contaminate his positive emotional involvement with his world.I honestly can't see the point of suffering on behalf African ancestors, or blaming the present Caucasians for something that their ancestors did. Racism is an idiocy of those who are probably accepting as true those jokes about "stupid blondes". As long as we have someone like Obama in White House, and someone like Oprah Winfrey being one of the richest women in the world - no one can pin racism on Caucasians of 21st century. Why perpetuate the spirit of slavery by talking about it? Can this world yank itself out from the stranglehold of our stupid history and start proving that we can do better? Can we stop playing on "poor-me" card and advance ourselves to a level where skin colors don't matter, like Obama did, like Oprah did, and so many other successful Africa Americans did? If they did not obsess about history - not that they didn't know it - why should all the others? What's the emotional pay-off?

Val, it sounds like you are equating slavery with racism. They are not the same. Racism is alive today. A prime example is the topic I started with. Michelle Obama talked about living in the White House which was built by slaves. Immediately O'Reilly didn't want to accept that.

When he saw that slaves were involved, he then said, a) they ate good, b) the accommodations were good, and c) they were paid. Slaves were not paid; their owners were paid. You only need to go to Monticello to see how they lived. They ate left overs. That's how we started eating chitterlings, chicken feet, hog testicles, etc.

One only need look at the comments under articles on the internet to see racist comments made. If you'd like I can pull up examples.

I didn't want this to be about slavery. I wanted it to be about racism. KKK David Duke Alt RightYou can't forget what you face on a daily basis. The intelligent thing to do is deal with it.

Unfortunately, what is denied cannot be corrected. An alcoholic has to admit that he is an alcoholic to get help. When I was young, I resolved to get a good education and be independent. That doesn't protect me from racism. It does help me to deal with it in an intellient manner. As I go through various challenges, I trust God who goes through the crises with me. I recognize that the evil is a heart matter. I can't change how someone else acts. I can change my response.

Diane, what was it you told me once? You were hired as one of the first Black employees at a major firm, as an accountant. This was supposed to be a big deal and your qualifications were always suspect by your peers even though you had a college degree and most of them did not. None of that seem relevant to them. I went through the same circumstance when I was first hired for my upward mobility position.

Not even accountant Credence2. "Accounting assistant" was what I was hired as. A white colleague told me "You should be glad you have a job." She was proud that she had the job. She had graduated high school - no college.

No one ever considers the possibility that you could have higher expectations because you were better educated and better prepared?

This came in the other day that sheds a little light on this in a tangential way.

I have a sister who married a heir to a prominent retail outlet, no longer in business, but whose name everybody would know instantly.

His mother recently died and he had written an article about her participation in the sport of badminton, (for example). The article is ok, but would have a narrow audience, naturally. But, he told me that the article was to be published in "badminton today", the prominent publication for the sport's aficionados.

I told him that even if I wrote a similar account that was better than his, nobody is interested in Credence2's mother. The only reason he gets published was due to his celebrity and that of his family. And the biggest shock is that neither he nor my sister gave that any thought to that possibility. Much of this is just an example of the unspoken reality behind much of our current debate.

Diane - I certainly empathize with you and with every black person who encountered problems generated by racism. However, if we would care to look at the broader picture, we might see nearly as many dramas as there are people, regardless of their skin color.At times we get to witness how a white dude who doesn't make it in life gets called "a loser", while the black dude of the equal misfortune gets called "a victim of a predominantly white society". You show me a black person "who didn't get a job", and I'll show you a white one who didn't get it. My wife worked in a bank for 30 years and in quite a few occasions a black person would ask her to "bend the rules for her" - and when my wife refused, the woman said "I know, it's because I am black". We could only afford two children, while it's a trend for black women to have several without the father anywhere around to support them - so guess what, they will get a welfare, and statistically it's more likely for them to qualify than for a white person.Am I by any chance talking like a "racist" here? I hope not, because there is no racist bone in me. I am simply saying that hardships in life are universal, not merely traceable to racism, and that sentiment of victimhood is not either, because many folks of all races feel that society and politicians are ignoring their needs. It's just too simple and easy to put a label on the source of our suffering. Again, yes, racism exists - maybe not only one way either.

You came late to the conversation. We've been going for over a month.1. Numerically, there are more white people on welfare than Black people.2. Numerically, there are moer white people on food stamps than Black people.http://madamenoire.com/515370/stereotyp … ps-blacks/

3. When we discuss race, what is the import of welfare programs. I hate to rehash - My dad with 8th grade education prided himself on taking care of his family working on steady job and odd jobs to make sure the bills were paid.

4. When there are problems to be solved, the best way to do it is to get to the root of the problem. There may be 100,000 unemployed people. They are not all unemployed for the same reasons.

5. People who are not racist don't have to say it. The way they handle a discussion speaks volumes.

I responded to what you wrote. Your response in turn has me baffled. The majority, if not all, of the people in this discussion have college educations at a minimum. Racism should not be restricted to the unqualified Black people that just want handouts. There are those of all colors who want handouts.

Diane - I wish I could understand how is that argument about "my coming late to the discussion" relevant, or even proving me wrong.

It's even harder to understand what the educational level of the participants has to do with anything - unless you are implying that educational level is an automatic proof of "being right", which would be quite snobbish, don't you think so?

Furthermore, why are you mentioning your father and his supporting the family? Is that supposed to be taken as "typical", or what was the other purpose of it?Then, the fact that there are "more white folks on welfare than blacks" says nothing, as the total number of blacks is only a fraction of the population.

By the way, yes, it IS necessary for one to emphasize that they are not racist - otherwise they may quickly "become one" by merely asking some uncomfortable questions.

And finally, I am gracefully and respectfully removing myself from any further participation - and your being "baffled" by my responses is giving me a hint that I won't be missed. This way you may continue to hear more of what you prefer hearing. Wishing you the best - Val

You wroteDiane - I certainly empathize with you and with every black person who encountered problems generated by racism. However, if we would care to look at the broader picture, we might see nearly as many dramas as there are people, regardless of their skin color.

At times we get to witness how a white dude who doesn't make it in life gets called "a loser", while the black dude of the equal misfortune gets called "a victim of a predominantly white society". You show me a black person "who didn't get a job", and I'll show you a white one who didn't get it.

My responseYour 2nd paragraph shows that you clearly don't understand. The example Credence2 had me restate was about my job as an accounting assistant. My co-worker - white, high school educationme - Black, BBA in Business administration and 15 hours of accounting

You wroteMy wife worked in a bank for 30 years and in quite a few occasions a black person would ask her to "bend the rules for her" - and when my wife refused, the woman said "I know, it's because I am black".

My response"bend the rules for her" - I remembered as a handout I addressed it below

You wroteWe could only afford two children, while it's a trend for black women to have several without the father anywhere around to support them - so guess what, they will get a welfare, and statistically it's more likely for them to qualify than for a white person.

My responseThis sounds like welfare. I have never had children. That's why I quoted statistics below

You wroteAm I by any chance talking like a "racist" here? I hope not, because there is no racist bone in me. I am simply saying that hardships in life are universal, not merely traceable to racism, and that sentiment of victimhood is not either, because many folks of all races feel that society and politicians are ignoring their needs.

My responseThis sounds like a dismissal of my reality. I do not consider myself a victim and am proud of my accomplishments.

You wroteIt's just too simple and easy to put a label on the source of our suffering. Again, yes, racism exists - maybe not only one way either.

My responseThis sounds like I am unable to identify the source when I am hearing specific words, identifying symptoms and making informed opinions. That is what you are taught to do in college and job professional development. In order to make decisions on jobs, especially dealing with other people, you have to have the critical thinking skills to make those assessments.

You can forget this part. I wrote it before I decided to copy/paste/respondComing late - That means I am repeating myself to others

educational level - That was with regard to qualifications. Your wife worked at the bank. A lot of Black people came wanted special consideration -

welfare - I thought you brought up welfare. If you didn't, I'm sorry.

My father working - He was an honest, hard working man who took care of his family and all attendant responsibiities. He didn't want "handout" He did raise us to want handouts.

We are supposed to have a productive discussion. I attempted to move us from slavery because I didn't want anyone to feel that this was about slavery. I want us to discuss the last 100 years (I think that was Wilderness' idea. I think it is a great idea.)

I would like for you to stay. But please understand that each of us have our own reality. Credence2 and I met at odds on another issue. We don't agree on everything but we understand each other.Same with Live and Wilderness. We all have our own quirks.

I might go overboard in explaining but that is part of who I am. Chunk-chew-check is the new term but music teachers have done this for years.

It concerns me when people say, "color doesn't matter!" when they have not experienced living in color.

It concerns me when people say, "get over it!" when there are people who interact with me in ways to demonstrate that they think "I am less than or not as smart."

I can't dismiss the reality of my life and I am not complaining about it. I explain how I deal with the reality.

Diane - Let me start with your last sentence : "I explain how I deal with the reality". Without trying to sound too philosophical about it (I like thinking of myself as a pragmatic dude) - what the heck is "reality", Diane, other than someone's mind construct? Since two people can't agree about what it is - and this discussion is somewhat proving it - its true meaning is up for grabs.Late Robbin Williams said it prophetically : "Reality? Hmmm, an interesting concept". For concept it is, and our linear minds can only conceptualize about things, not grasp their essence. What "racism" may mean to you - according to your personal experience is pretty much locked within that experience, because no one else had in their life an exact copy of it - since you are not a duplicate of anybody else. So, at our best we can philosophize ad nauseam about an abstract, "generalized racism", hoping that we are talking about the same thing. To me, racism might as well be just a state of mind that's a subject to my ability to transcend it into an opportunity, maybe even a challenge to show the world what metal I am made of. Because that's the ultimate parameter of my evaluating my status in this world - how people's reactions to me can make me grow. Not cataloging an inventory of how they may be hurting me. That's why you see me throwing into this discussion this radical assertion about a self-destructive motive behind listing down all perils and evils of racism. In the good tradition of my favorite est (Erhard Seminars Training) position, I am tempted to ask a black sufferer : Why are you doing it to yourself? For no one can walk into your brain to push some buttons there and tell you how you should feel about yourself as a black person - it's all of your own make.

Now, Diane, are you still sure you want me to stay here in this discussion?

In the good tradition of my favorite est (Erhard Seminars Training) position, I am tempted to ask a black sufferer : Why are you doing it to yourself? For no one can walk into your brain to push some buttons there and tell you how you should feel about yourself as a black person - it's all of your own make.

My responseI am not doing anything to myself! A reality that many white people who pass age 40 will appreciate age discriminaiton. It is not a brain construct. It is a reality. If you are not a member of aarp.org, I highly recommend it.

When you get to a certain age, people leave you out of discussions and decision-making, assume that you don't know the latest stategies and techniques, and consider you a prime suspect to reduce the budget. After all, they can hire at least 2 recent college graduates for what they have paid you.

Reality to me is the actual factual things that happen and can be documented. When you have documented facts and say iit's not true, that's fantasy.

Diane - At a risk of making it look like a game of words, allow me to say that you are mixing factual circumstances with reality. In everyday jargon they are used as synonymous to one another, but they are not - if we are to upgrade discussion beyond the jargon uses.

Reality is what we psycho-physically create out of impersonal factual circumstances.

It's a circumstance that we lose our importance to the work force after a certain age. Now, we have a simple choice - to go reactive or proactive about it, and that will determine our reality. By itself, that fact means nothing. Just like by itself it means nothing that someone is looking down on you because of your being black, or any other color for that matter. It's what you make of it is what matters, what becomes "real" for you. Not in the jargon context of "real-vs. imagined", but "impersonal vs. personal".

If you opt for being re-active, you may lose your sleep over it, protest, grow a stomach ulcer, get a high blood pressure...your choice. Or you can assess the situation and use that "bitching" energy for something constructive, like guess what - finding another job. Not easy at that age? Who ever said that life has to be easy, and as soon as we get pissed off, the Lady Fortune has to cater to our wishes.But, using all that enormous negative energy of re-acting for something pro-active, we would be surprised how much can be done. I know it from my own experience. I lost the best job of my life at the age of 45, and my initial reaction was - well, a reaction, and the medical term for it was "pissed off big time". The way I am (trained in my mind), I bounced back before you know it. With something almost "spooky" following certain mindset which didn't have the word "victim" in it - I was back in the work force in no time. And that was MY reality, while some other dude from the old company who also lost his job ended up having a reality of a male babysitter, while his wife, thrilled with situation had to find the second job - and that was HIS reality.Thus, I am still sticking to my guns saying that "nothing in life has a suchness until we give it one" - the words that I wrote in an essay when I was 16.

You don't get off this easy, Val!! I need to understand your point of view. Right now we are reduced to he said, she said. Statistical data from credible sources can move the points we make beyond mere individual personal experiences. Let's move it from the subjective to the objective so that we can speak about apples and apples. Are you open to that because, I and, I am sure, Diane can identify these.

These are difficult issues to discuss, but the air needs to br cleared and I need to hear from everybody, all sides. If I have an issue with a position taken by anyone, I will either find objective sources to refute it or I will just sit down. Nerves are going to be touched in this process, we only learn by these kinds of exchanges. Val, I note that you are Canadian. I have visited 7 or 8 provinces over the last few years. In my travels, it seemed that this matter is far less contentious there. But, Calgary is different from Montreal, the latter being more cosmopolitan, and that follows as more racially tolerant and accepting. But the scale needs to consider the fact that the Canadian model certainly is not the AMERICAN one How much do you really know about the racial animus that has been part of AMERICAN History? Fate seems to have spared Canada from this experience to the same extent.

How does your experience as an Canadian add to this discussion, perhaps being outside the fray allows you to see what we are all blinded to?

Credence - Here you are expressing a "need to understand my point", and it seems that you are stuck around "subjective vs. objective". You are also backing up your "objective" position with something like "statistics".

Let me ask you something, but prepare yourself not to like it. Are you living your life, or you are living some numbers, some data about the society you live in? Are you a breathing and thinking person or a label - like an American, a critic, a Christian(?), a democrat(?)...whatever?

What makes your definition of racism more plausible than mine - is it just the fact that you live there and I live in Canada? My friend, we are all incredibly selective about how we interpret that collection of information we get from the media. Whatever we say, we have to mix it with our own saliva, it's not an absolute copied from an engraved stone.

You say that the "air has to be cleared" - and I am not sure if you see that I have been doing it all along. Can you see my point - you may have all "objective sources" in the world, and that "objectivity" means nothing until you give it some meaning in your life. Otherwise we are just kicking some sterile crap consisting of some impersonal numbers. How more clear does it get?

I am not living the life of a society, but only my own. By getting "informed" (which is also very questionable and highly selective) I am not living other people's lives more, just learning selective stories about them. What I do with that fund of information is up to me.

American or Canadian history is at its best exactly that - his-story. How do I benefit from knowing it? Am I becoming more competent to interpret the realities of millions of people of the past and present? I didn't know any of them, they are as good as an abstraction, so who of us is talking abstract stuff here?I have been trying to put on realistic legs some truisms of life - emphasizing that at the end of the day you are not a historian, but a human being joggling with concepts in your own personalized way - doing something to your life with all that stuff that you are calling "objective".

And as soon as you find another use for that information, your reality will change. Or it will stay the same - again up to you, not up to anything in that "objective world". Statistics are not dictating you anything.

I hope I have given that "subjective" concept a little more weight and significance.

Of course I am living my life but I am not oblivious to those others that are denied equal opportunity to live theirs as I do. Just because my life was not derailed by these things does not mean I do not have an obligation to promote a society where equality of opportunity is the foremost standard. I am who I am. Shouldn't I be interested that everybody have the ability to live their lives to the fullest?

I don't know that we really had a discussion on your concept of racism verses mine. You seem to imply that it is a figment of our imagination? That sounds intriguing from a philosophers perspective, but how about real life examples. We have disparities in law enforcement and criminal justice applications that adversely work against Blacks, this is statistical. Am I to ignore that because it has no immediate affect on my personal life, even though I can never know when I could find myself in its clutches? The issues here regarding equitable enforcement of the law are more than just imaginary. You don't see blond females, while the butt of jokes, consistently being adversely treated in seeking employment or unjustifiably paying higher interest rates for a mortgage just because they are blond, white females?

I hear what you are saying, that life has adverse surprises for us all. I can't deny that. But apologists for the racism that remains, although less overt, like to make the issue amorphous, thus relieving themselves of the responsibility to properly identify and work to address inequities in our society that come from this source.

Val, Obama and Oprah were successful inspite of racism. You speak of it as if it no longer exists, but alas, it is still here.

That does not mean that racism cannot be overcome, but it takes energy. Comparable to escaping the earth's gravitational well. But, I may be exaggerating a bit, but you get the point. We get tired of having to climb Mt Everest, when others just have to step over the local ant hill to reap the same outcome.

Credence - Of course racism still exists, but my point was that without slavery or social obstacles to anyone's success it's more of a "phantom of the past" hanging around promoted by those whose opinion shouldn't be taken seriously. To borrow my mentioned parallel with blondes - should every blond woman develop an inferiority complex because there are jokes made about them? Or, should every Democrat feel "threatened" because there are folks of conservative orientation around? Likewise, if someone gives you a bad comment on your hub, because you are not writing "to his literary taste" - should you stop writing altogether, or even try to write for his taste?My point is that we can't please everyone in this world with our looks, minds, our singing voice, etc. - but that should not be a signal to us that "something is wrong with us". Racism is a nonsense, and it should be treated that way, not given so much publicity as it is enjoying.

We have a major party presidential candidate that uses these abrasive issues to promote his campaign. And he seems to be doing quite well. That's a 'big opinion' and I have to take it seriously.

The issue is more about the 'attitudes', the racially based presumptions we make about one another that influences our behavior toward each other.

I have worked hard to not allow racism to become a crux or excuse for my not achieving my objectives, but I would be dishonest if I did not say that it played the role as substantial headwinds during the journey.

You seem to imply that the concept is just incidental, I am saying that it more substantial than that, based on my experience.

I think it is hard for one to comprehend who has not been through it or witnessed it. Because I lived in the Jim Crow south, I met white people who were perceptive and able to see racism taking place. I wrote about my beloved Ida Webb Moose who helped me on my journey. She made it a mission to hire Black girls to work on her college work-study program.

Many who saw what she was doing were furious. A Black man who was Director of Office of Economic Opportunity used to park behind my car in the morning. I had to wait for him to move his car in order for me to go to my college classes. The Director of Education had the goverment to do an audit on the College Work-Study Program because they couldn't understand what she was doing.

I agree with most of what you said but the emotional payoff you ask about is quite heady. The one who continuously wants to ensure everyone understands they are descended from the bloodline which was wronged in the past can claim everything from a moral high ground by 'forgiving us' (as if we bear some guilt) to justifying not succeeding in life.

And, if you aren't a blood relative you can join the bandwagon by just crying along. And the great thing is those of us with mixed blood can reap the benefits as well by choosing to identify with only one of our ancestral bloodlines.

There can be a downside but as long as you ride the wave of moral superiority by being distantly related to someone wronged you get to feel as if you are special because someone, somewhere, sometime in the distant past who you can reasonably assume you might be related to got shafted by life.

Apparently it is impossible for many of you here to present an argument without first erecting a strawman to pin it on. I am an educated, and successful person. And on this count, I am not unique among the minority community. With the encouragement of my parents, I have been a student of Indigenous and Black History since before the age of puberty. I am obviously articulate, I have succeeded as a professional musician, which is a very challenging occupation, I have traveled around the world , and I have enjoyed the attention of many beautiful women, as well as many women who were not so beautiful, but also deserving of good company. Recognizing the evil of systemic racism has improved my self-esteem, as I can hold my head up, knowing that I have not made a fool of myself, or dishonored my ancestors by embracing an evil empire. Understanding the evil of America has only made me stronger, and more determined to free all men, white and black, from mental slavery. Because once the mind is free, the rest is sure to follow.

As I have already commented earlier, evil does not come to men of goodwill as a matter of karmic debt, but evil comes of it's own accord. The African and the Indigenous do not magically manifest racism simply through the remembrance of an old misery. Nor do they manifest racism by shouting it from the rooftops. Such a nonsensical belief is itself a racist notion. You have attempted to equate an existential personal trauma with the effects of systemic racism. It really doesn't matter how someone feels about themselves, how much love they have in their heart, or how intelligent and motivated they are. If they are living in a racist society, it is that society which determines the flow of money, where the person shall live, and the frequency and severity of mental and physical abuse.

Racism is Satanic in origin, and is manifested from the heart of white America. And racism continues to be perpetuated by white Americans against both the African and the Indigenous. It is the white man who continues to suffer from this disease, which is why I have brought the medicine here. But their are many today who are sowing the seeds of deception in an attempt to perpetuate the racist myth that the darker races are weak minded, unable to overcome the past, and unable to compete with the "superior" white race. But in this thread I have continued to expose this fallacy.

Not one of my opponents have been able to provide an intelligent argument to refute the truth I have so generously, and without appropriate compensation, delivered. Oh Yes! They are quite adept when it comes to hurling insults in my direction. But their rebuttals, are filled with strawmen, and the predictable racist perspectives that have been making the rounds for many years. And now I see you have entered the fray as the "voice of reason" ... with your "scientific proof". Your commentary reminds of a man who is suffering from a heart attack being told how he can improve his condition by switching to Crest, and brushing his teeth after every meal! For $500.00, I'll take: Is there a place the sun doesn't shine?

Well, if nothing else that "scientific proof" is far superior to the faux "truth" that only those with white skin can be racists. THAT one is obviously no more than a rationalized excuse for exhibiting racism without being labeled a racist.

There are indeed many that are "sowing the seeds of deception" in order to perpetuate racism.

Unlike many of the cowards I have encountered throughout my life. I do not need an excuse to hide behind. This thread is about discussing racism. As I have stated, the color of racism is white. Not just here in America, but throughout the world, as the architects of racism (The European Aristocracy and the Catholic Church) were also white. I had nothing to do with that, nor do the frail sensibilities of many white Americans keep me awake at night.

Since the African and the Indigenous were strong enough to survive and thrive after over 500 years of white racist oppression, then white America will have to be strong enough to listen to the details, at least for the next 500 years. Trust and believe, there are many in the movement who are bound,determined, and dedicated to the cause of de-colonization. We do not really care who apologizes, or how guilty anyone feels. We are in the process of reclaiming our identity. America has nothing to do with who we are, and we will be here long after America has turned to rust.

I listened to Bill 'oReilly's discussions of this I did not get the impression that he was an advocate of slavery, just quoting what is was that George Washington had written regards to how the White House was built. I usually am not much for O'Reilly, as much of his commentary is BS. But, I won't castigate him, if he does not deserve it.

As for slavery, I have forgiven, but I can more forget than to expect the Jews to forget the Nazi haulocast, if for no other reason than to prevent its reenactment in a future time.

What gave me pause is that there was disbelief that the slaves were involved? Whenever there was manual labor, that was what the slaves were for?

I don't know what George Washington considered eating good or having good accommodations. They thought so little of slaves that whatever was good enough for slaves but I'm sure would not have been suitable for the slave owners.

Ditto, Diane, pretty gutsy of you to offer this thread. Also, you have attracted some good participation. This is the place to be honest and candid and keep it all above board.

George Washington probably indicated that the slave labor was treated as well as in at the time in the completion of their task. How good that was can only be evaluated when compared with other sort of laborers.

I'm posting this in response to a common racist myth that black people "just can't make it, but everybody else can". Historically, black people have been disproportionately in the lower income brackets simply because of institutionalized racism. The Irish, the Chinese, and no other group, save for the First Nations, has ever been discriminated against more than black people.

In the mind of the white mainstream, the media has served to make the black experience synonymous with the inner city ghetto. But in reality, that is only one aspect of the black experience. I grew up in a farming community in the mid-west. A great majority of the black people there were farmers. Others worked in factories, or meat packing plants. I knew very few black families who were poor. I had black relatives who were farmers. Most of them lived in nice houses surrounded by acres and acres of farm land. I remember going to black churches as a child. Bethel AME, and a Church of God In Christ. The parking lots of the churches were always filled with shiny new cars, and it was rare to see anyone pull up in a junker.

The latter church was always packed, and sometimes it got so loud the church would start to vibrate, as if it was a rocket on a launching pad about to take off. It was a wonderful experience for a child, because I was fascinated with music and rhythm at an early age. Many of the black farmers listened to country music as much as they listened to Marvin Gaye. And except for the color of their skin, it was hard to distinguish some of them from the rednecks. The point is, the stereotypes of black people that have been promoted in the media have permeated the consciousness of the white mainstream, and have created the myth that "black people just can't make it".

My experience reveals just the opposite. I understand that when doors are opened, black people can do as well, if not better than anyone else. I am reminded of an old James Brown song: "I don't want nobody to give me nothing. Open up the door, I'll get it myself!" Furthermore, there are more poor white people in the United States than any other race. Why can't they make it? The answer is very simple. Many people, white and black, can't make it because the system we are living in is not designed that way. In a Capitalist system there will always be haves and have nots. If everybody was rich, then nobody would be rich, and the pyramid would fall down. It is an evil system that needs to be replaced. I have met very few poor people, black or white, who were lazy and simply didn't want to work. That is another myth. Poor people don't want to be poor. The very notion is absurd.

Here are just a few examples of affluent black communities that we never hear about in the mainstream media:

•In Union Dale, a suburb of New York City, the average family income is $76,553.According to the 2000 census, the population was 23,011, consisting of 55.53% African American / Latino 22.86%

•In Friendly Maryland the average family income is $82,827.According to the 2000 census, the population was 10,938, consisting of 77.67% African American

•In Woodmore Maryland the average family income is $103,438. According to the 2000 census, the population was 6,077, consisting 64.9% African American.

•In Ladera Heights California the average family income is $132,824. According to the 2010 census, the population was 6,498, consisting 73.7% African American.

It begs the question, what happened to the black families you talked about in the ensuing years?How did we come to this? Why do we have such high out of wedlock births? Why are the inner city schools not working like the rest of the country? Why are teen unemployment so high in the black community? Why are blacks voting 90% democratic year after year with no improvements?How did Obama and Clearance Thomas and Dr. Ben Carson reach their potential?

As far as Clarence Thomas ,Ben Carson, and Obama are concerned, the point you are trying to make is ridiculous. So what? They are successful black men. I could also cite three very successful white men like Donald Trump and say: "Well, Donald Trump made it, why can't all the poor white people make it too? But there is another element involved as well. Not only do poor black people have to deal with the same realities as poor whites, they also have to deal with systemic racism. And so, the burden becomes more than twice as heavy. Economic parity for many black people simply hasn't been allowed, and that is why there is a disproportionate number of poor black people in the inner cities. It certainly has nothing to do with talent or motivation. As the men you mentioned, many great black entertainers and sports figures, and many great black writers and scientists have revealed, whenever the door is opened, black people excel.

I have been a professional musician for many years, and I am not black. I am Aniyunwiya/German. I am very good at what I do, and with the luck of the draw I could be famous yesterday. But some of the best musicians I have ever played with were black. When I began learning the guitar I studied the black bluesmen. They were my mentors. The first real band I played in was a black Disco band in Hawaii. I got fired after the second gig because I couldn't keep up! And I was glad they fired me because I was not ready. I do not get angry when people excel, or if they are more talented than I. It only makes me try harder. But many whites are afraid of the black man taking over, because the black man is not inferior in any way, shape, or form. And neither are my people. And that's what this racism is all about. It is about fear of losing control. But such fear is quite ironic, because all men came from the original black man. The black man is the original source of all human life. And so, we can see the white racist trying to run; trying to hide from an inescapable truth. Today it appears that all of the chickens are coming home to roost.

Thanks for sharing your experience but you missed my point. Why do some people succeed? White or black? Perhaps it has to do with personal behavior and choices and who they choose as role models and not let society define them...Or be victimized by the very same groups that claim to want to help. I also point out that these black leaders such as Rev. Jackson and Sharpton have done little to improve the situation and yet are propped up by the media every time there is a race issue... If for 50 years, they have not improved the black experience, perhaps we should look in a different direction, a different political class, a different way of thinking and just do the right thing as all other groups have done to succeed. The American dream is alive and well dispite all the obsticles. Race is one factor but not the only factor.

The desire to improve comes from self determination. Outside influences are very important. When I was growing up, my mentors were the white grocery store owner who allowed my dad to have credit and he honorably paid his bill every month.

My 7th grade English teacher, 8th grade math teacher, etc., were people I could reach out and touch. They personally encouraged me. Jessie Jackson was trying to build his reputation on the back of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. He had a child outside of his marriage. He was good with rhetoric and stirring the troops. I can' remember anything he did that impacted my life. Al Sharpton has been a great source of irritation for me.

As I said before, the first mentors are the parents. This is where a strong principled Black family with morals comes in. Drugs add a deadly element to the mix. My parents were great, loving parents. Unfortunately, my two baby sisters ended up on drugs in the late 70s, after I had moved to LA.

I have reached back to help the kids in my family since I saw what was going on. They consider me the matriarch and role model of the family. The kids hate drugs and do not want to be around drugs. Unfortunately my sister's drug use caused two of her children to be drug babies. Their father was a hope to die drunk. The son came to live with me in high school (before I knew the extent of the damage) He graduated #5 in his class and got a full scholarship to Georgetown University. He had well meaning Jewish mentors and my nephew loved the pity they showed. His Georgetown GPA was low because he started going to phychiatrists and was there diagnosed as an adult child of an alcoholic, ADD, and a bunch of stuff. He was prescribed medications that caused him to sleep all day. He was accepted into law school but slept his way through. After 5 years he could graduate because he couldn't reach a 2.0 gpa.

His sister was diagnosed as having temporal lobe damage and she has Turner's Syndrome. She can't count money. I purchased a house in Little Rock for them. Jeff is working for Xerox/Apple doing telephone tech support from home.

Tooo long. My point is that mentors come from people close enough to talk to and help those who have challenges. Mentorship requires up close and personal involvement.

It appears that your entire perspective is biased against black people. Especially when you comment " ... just do the right thing as all other groups have done to succeed..." You are implying that all other groups or races have succeeded but the black race, and that is as close to a lie as anyone can get. I have been playing this game a long time Jack. Aren't you aware that the majority of poor people in this country are white? Didn't you know that more cops are killed by whites than any other race? Conversely, didn't you also know that more whites are killed by cops than any other race. These are the facts Jack. Now, let's look at the numbers:

According to Federal Safety Net (I believe this is based on a 2014 report): 19.7 million whites are living in poverty while 10.8 million blacks are living in poverty. The poverty rate among whites is 10.1% whereas the poverty rate among blacks is 26.2%. The poverty rate for blacks is double that of whites. And this is not remarkable considering the historical record. It would only be remarkable if the oppressive majority had a higher poverty rate than the oppressed minority. Consequently, all of the hyperbole aimed at suggesting the black race is violent and lacks motivation is simply a racist tactic; a slanderous method being used to undermine the black community.

If a majority of black people were violent, then what happened in Haiti in 1791 would not have been the exception, but would have become the rule many years ago. If the majority of black people were unmotivated, you would not see so many black people excel in every high paying industry that has removed racial barriers.

Perhaps I could have explained my position a little better. When I said, the black community could do the right thing... I was comparing specifically to immigrant groups that came here and succeeded as a group. For example, Vietnamese that came here after the Vietnam war... They learned our language, they started small businesses, they worked hard and long hours, they emphasized education for their children and family, they helped each other and over time, they succeeded as a group and moved out of the underclass... My question is why can't this model be replicate in the black community? If I was black and living in the inner cities of Chicago, I would do my best to get out of there. One can be self taught by reading and the public library is a great place to start. If you read Ben Carson's book, that is exactly what he did to get out of poverty. One can choose to not use drugs or have children out of wedlock... or join a gamg...All these are personal choices and behavior that can be changed. The problems in our inner city is many. It will take time to recover. It will take people deciding to change their behavior to make the transition. No amount of government assistance will do this. If anything, it will only perpetuate the welfare state.

Do you even read comments before you post? All you did was essentially paraphrase what you originally said. All Vietnamese immigrants are not successful. All Irish immigrants are not successful. Neither group "succeeded as a group". That is pure fantasy! Individuals among each group succeeded, while others failed. As I indicated, there are more poor white people than any other race here in the U.S.. So if we are to view "white people" as monolithic: white people did "not" succeed as a group. Some made it and some didn't. That's what really happened. If you studied the problem from a neutral perspective you might gain some understanding. But that would entail a considerable amount of time devoted to the historical record. If you truly want to help, then educating yourself about this issue would be the best thing you could do. Some of us on this thread have not only studied the situation , but we have also lived it ... far too long. It appears from your comments that you have no experience on either level.

I never said all people. I said group meaning as a whole...percentage wise.Why are you not understanding this simple concept? What is your solution to the plight of blacks in the inner cities? I am giving my perspective based on my experience. My suggestions will help. There are no guarantees.

One day I was walking along a highway and I saw a vision. I saw a naked man standing in a sewer. And as a result, I experienced a great epiphany. I will explain in the following manner: If a man is standing up to his neck in a sewer, how many bars of soap will it take to make him clean? Of course, there is no answer, because as long as he is standing in the sewer, he will never come clean. The man must first step out of the sewer, and when he does, one bar of soap should be sufficient.

When we talk about the plight of the black man in the inner city, we are really talking about 2 distinct problems. Both must be solved in order to abolish this evil reality. The metaphorical sewer in this case is composed of two elements of evil: Racism and Capitalism. We can never solve the problem of poverty for black, or white, until we abolish both elements. If we simply abolish a system of racism, then it would certainly relieve some of the pressure, but a capitalist system would still remain. And capitalism requires the shape of a pyramid. Capitalism cannot function without a larger underclass on the bottom, to support and pay tribute to a smaller ruling class at the top. Yes, there is a solution to this problem. But it is not the solution that a majority wants to hear. The majority mistakenly believes that they can vote their way to a better world. But they have been voting for almost 250 years, and instead of getting better, the world appears to be getting worse!

The Christian Bible suggests that the world is ruled by a Satanic force. And we can translate that to be an "evil" force. For example: Neville Chamberlain sought to appease Adolph Hitler. But Hitler could not be appeased, or voted into oblivion. Adolph Hitler was Satanic, and the Nazis were an evil force. They could only be put down like a rabid dog. When we consider the evil forces at work in the world today, we can understand that they cannot be voted into oblivion. We cannot appease the greedy, or make them feel guilty and go away. Wall Street, the greedy politicians, and the industrial military complex cannot be appeased. They function through oppression, and they feed upon the blood and the misery of innocents. They are a mighty force, and they are a Satanic force. But unlike Adolph Hitler, we cannot defeat them with violence, or with bullets and bombs. They are far more powerful than Adolf Hitler, as they now have a stranglehold on the entire world through a world wide banking system.

In order to free ourselves from tyranny, we, the citizens of the world, only have one option available. We must go off the grid. We must stop buying mass produced products. We must stop purchasing automobiles and washing machines. We must stop using supermarkets. We must either produce our own food, or purchase food that is provided by a county, or city collective. We must put an end to consumerism as we know it. In effect, we must stop the world. What we must do is just the opposite of Ayn Rand's famous work entitled "Atlas Shrugged". Rather than the capitalist walking away from the world, the proletariat must walk away from consumerism, capitalism, and materialism, and allow the system to fall down, and to self-destruct. Short of divine intervention, this is the only way out. The governments of the world have no defense against such a formidable weapon, as it is more powerful than an atomic bomb. In effect, what I have described is similar to the rich man giving away all of his possessions and following Jesus. This is the only way we can step out of the sewer, and make ourselves clean.

You are so missguided. Racism and Capitalism? are to blame for the plight of the blacks in inner cities?You don't know what poverty is until you travel the world and see what some other countries that don't adopt capitalism as an economic engine. If anything, Capitalism is what brought many out of poverty. I go to Flushing NY on some weekend for shopping. You will see venders on the street selling all kinds of stuff. These people for the most part are poor illegal immigrants from China. They come to this country via some illegal transport where they pay a huge sum or go into debt. They work very hard to pay back these debts and send money back home to their families. They don't speak English. They are making a living for themselves and their families back in China. There are many stories as this. It is capitalism that allow them to make it. I would suggest you go talk to some of these people. Use a translator if you have to. Find out how they are doing and how this life compare to their plight back home. Racism exist everywhere and is unfortunate part of human nature. We as a nation have done a lot to elliminate institutional racism. It should not be used to excuse, or justify, a group of people for not achieving the American dream. Anyone can try but not everyone will make it for one reason or another.That is the free market system. Our country is founded on freedom and equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome.

Equality of outcome is not possible because the ruling elite will not allow it, and even Woodrow Wilson admitted this himself. To say that one dog is better off because his master does not beat him and feeds him better scraps from the table is not saying much Jack. I have been around the world,and I am also well read. Much of the poverty that you speak of is a direct result of Capitalism and Imperialist aggression. And if you have a problem with what you consider "ancient history", then we only need to look at the current destabilization of the Middle East. The war in Syria is a proxy war being waged by greedy Capitalists who are winning now through the sale of arms and munitions, and who will also win later with greater control of the oil. They do not care how many innocent people have to die. And a vendor who is "allowed" to sell vegetables in the street and lives in a run down shack, housing project,or even a gated community, is a far cry from Monsanto, Wall Street, and Goldman Sachs.

As far as IBM is concerned, Edwin Black black wrote in his book : "IBM and the Holocaust: The Strategic Alliance between Nazi Germany and America's Most Powerful Corporation""As the Nazi war machine occupied successive nations of Europe, capitulation was followed by a census of the population of each subjugated nation, with an eye to the identification and isolation of Jews and Gypsies. These census operations were intimately intertwined with technology and cards supplied by IBM's German and new Polish subsidiaries, which were awarded specific sales territories in Poland by decision of the New York office following Germany's successful Blitzkrieg invasion.Data generated by means of counting and alphabetization equipment supplied by IBM through its German and other national subsidiaries was instrumental in the efforts of the German government to concentrate and ultimately destroy ethnic Jewish populations across Europe, Black demonstrates. Black reports that every Nazi concentration camp maintained its own Hollerith-Abteilung (Hollerith Department), assigned with keeping tabs on inmates through use of IBM's punch-card technology. In his book, Black charges that "without IBM's machinery, continuing upkeep and service, as well as the supply of punch cards, whether located on-site or off-site, Hitler's camps could have never managed the numbers they did."

The same evil that existed then still exists today. A Zebra does not change it's stripes, and a Lion will never lose his taste for live prey. Furthermore, I am certain that the evil IBM corporation has also performed many "good works" for mankind as well. But whatever those good works might be, I am not impressed. There are many men who will mercilessly beat their wives and girlfriends, and then buy them a new dress, or even a new car. I am not impressed with them either. IBM was like many soulless entities during World War II. They didn't care what Hitler was doing with their technology. They were only interested in making as much money as they could before the U.S. government pulled the plug. Based on your commentary, I am not surprised that you worked for this corporation.

That's O.K. Jack. You are in good company, as it appears many think as you do. I have also encountered my own people who want very badly to be white on the inside, and to gain the approval of their oppressors. But as I have stated, it is as much a matter of class warfare as it is a matter of race. And you still have not provided an answer to the problem of white poverty in the United States. If the China man and the Vietnamese can do so well in the United States, why can't the poor whites make it? Surely they cannot play the race card, since this country was founded by white men. But in spite of this, there are more poor whites than any other race. Why Jack? How could this be? Considering their obvious advantage, there shouldn't be one poor white person in the United States, since a foreigner can come here and succeed. Could it be that the poor whites are simply unmotivated and unwilling to conform, as you have suggested in reference to the inner city blacks? Or could it be something else?

It may be true that a majority thinks they can vote their way to a better world. Certainly they think that voting to take from one and giving it to another is popular today - share the wealth plans are always popular among the takers, although not so much with those that lose what they have worked to earn.

But do away with capitalism and return to a life of living in hand built log cabins, riding your horse to town and plowing your garden with hand built wooden plows? I think not - your "cooperatives" are a pie in the sky dream that cannot work in a world of high rises.

You always resort to creating a fiction in order to gain an advantage. I never suggested "wooden plows" or going back to the stone age. Apparently, you are so mesmerized by the status quo, and a culture of consumerism, that you seem to think that society could not function otherwise. A capitalist corporation is a machine with 2 expendable attributes: the ability to mass produce, and the ability to collect revenue and amass fortunes. The technology, and the products sold by these corporations are developed by individual men and women who live in their own respective communities. These men and woman would not suddenly lose their knowledge and skills simply because they no longer had access to mass production through large corporations.

The "high rise" mentality, and the herding of people into large metropolitan areas is a perversion of the natural order. It is not the wave of the future, but only a path to destruction. The modern life that you and a great majority praise, and have taken for granted, is clearly a cancerous growth that cannot be "fixed", but must be completely removed from the body before it destroys the host. I find it remarkable that the addictive personality of the average American will casually flirt with complete annihilation, rather than give up any modern convenience. You are suggesting that my solution is not practical. But I feel the hard work and sacrifice involved in the creation of a new social paradigm, is far more practical than oblivion.

Moving somewhere without money to do so equals choosing to be homeless away from any family support structure you may have. Why would you recommend people choose homelessness over even a crappy home in the inner city? Don't you realize that being homeless would add to their problems exponentially rather than fixing them?

I've worked with many homeless people who took advice like yours. People think they can move without enough money, but it often falls through.

Not necessarily, people immigrate all the time and find places to live. What is your solution to help those trapped in the inner cities of Chicago? Where crime is rampant and shooting is common place and schools are broken and drug use is everywhere? Guess what, the city is ruled by Democrat elected mayors and democratic controlled city council...

Why don't you explain how moving without money without becoming homeless works then? Just write it up simply and publish it on HubPages and you could save millions of people from terrible situations. I will gladly promote it for you if you actually have real, viable strategies for moving without money and not becoming homeless in the process. It would be revolutionary and it would make your writing career.

I can do that and I can also predict the outcome. You and others will pan it as racist conservatives ideas to push down black people... Yet, we see Democrats promoting open borders that allow illegal immigrants to come in by the millions and some of them do very well here. How do you explain that? In my neighborhood, all jobs in fast foods here are manned by Mexicans and Hispanics. It used to be teenagers while I was growing up. No more jobs for teens... It used to be a training ground for work. Now it is a career about to be replaced by robots. They want a living wage of $15 per hour.I can site example after examples of how people with diverse backgrounds came here to this countey and succeeded. Why do you think people all over the world want to come here? I don't see them doing the same going to Communist Russia? I've published extensively here on hubpages promoting conservative principles. The beauty of these ideals is that they are color blind. They will work for all races and creeds if applied. That is the success story of America and why we are an exceptional nation.

Jack: Conservatism is not color blind, no more than Liberalism is not color blind. We are all wired to recognize the difference in people. Anytime the worth of a group is devalued by another group, it is dangerous. I don't even know you, but I can tell from you last name that you are probably of Asia decent. Is that racism? Yes to a certain degree it is.

Almost all the decedents of black people did not ask to come to this country. They were brought here as slaves. Lincoln freed the slaves, but to this day there are people out there who are racist and hate black people, no matter what political group they belong to. Most immigrants come to this country by choice. The slaves were separated from their families and many were interbred with white people. Just like any culture some were successful in overcoming their plight and others were not. Many of the men felt devalued. That's why there are those families who are mainly matriarchal. In those families the wife or grandmother does the caring for the children who are from broken families. Some succeed and are able to move out of those cities and others are not so successful. To say that conservative values is the answer does not recognize the root problem. The answer is to break up the gangs with education. Education is not racist, it empowers the people to better themselves with opportunities no matter their race. By the way, we all belong to only one race. It is called the human race.

Believe it or not I totally get it. The question is how do we move forward? Does it matter how we got here? The fact is we are here. How can an individual succeed in America? Given all the problems with our broken schools, our welfare state and our broken borders...My answer is conservative solution. It works every time it is tried. It is color blind by definition. What I propose does not have a racial component. Read my hubs... They are all common sense ideas. Better yet, I recommend everyone read Dr. Carson's book. He describe in detail how he was raised and how he grew up in Chicago and succeeded... If he can do it, anyone else can try as well. Notice, I said try... There are no guarantees in life. Some will do well and some will not. That is the state of the world on earth. Until we go to Heaven, there is no utopia.

"Anytime the worth of a group is devalued by another group, it is dangerous."

The stereotypical liberal view of a conservative is that they are all gun toting religious nuts. They actively want everyone not a WASP to starve to death, particularly anyone with dark skin. They actively pursue this goal by fighting any handouts to any group but their own. They are too stupid and immoral to recognize that we need laws and charitable programs; not a single one of their ideas has any value because they are all aimed at killing children and blacks by starving them to death and they hate anyone not of their religious persuasion.

Do you find this "dangerous"? If so, is it only because it has locked the country into a solid state of partisanship or because the conservative has been degraded to something less than human, lacking any morals at all?

Wliderness: It depends on your view point and your values and beliefs systems as to what side of the fence you relate to. I do know this is how Hitler was able start the Nazi party. He devalued the Jews and made them look they were the problem as to why the people were feeling so much anguish. Just like Trump, he told the people he could save them from a rigged system. The American Indians were devalued in the name of Manifest Destiny. The Palestinians are devalued by the Israelis. Devaluing an ethnic group or a culture can justify killings and genocide. The crusaders and the Muslims did it the name of God(s). Each had a different take on who their God was (is). This has been done throughout history.

I think it is the other way around. Conservatives by their very nature think liberals are immoral. That's why they are called conservatives. They don't like progressive change. They do like regressive change. Like "I want my country back" and Make America Great Again, no stem cell research, abortions, including anything risque, homophobia, LGBT, and fear of tyranny. That's why evangelicals and bible toting people that quote scripture fit right into the conservative template.

Why would you need to even talk about race if the strategies were strategies that allowed anyone to move without having any money?

I'm guessing that your reply really means you don't have a set of strategies and tactics that don't require seed money that people can use to move out of inner cities without becoming homeless, right? Or are we to believe that you're so sensitive that you'd avoid publishing your revolutionary, genius ideas that could improve millions of lives because you're afraid someone will say they are racist?

It's OK to admit you actually don't know a set of secret strategies that anyone could use to move from the inner city without having money that would not result in homelessness; no one else knows any such strategies so it's nothing to be ashamed of. However, if you really do know how anyone, regardless of ability, health, experience, or skills can move out of the inner city without having money and without becoming homeless and you don't share that information, you're truly a terrible human being. It's like knowing a secret cure for pancreatic cancer and choosing not to share it because someone might type mean words at you.

This idea that you have and the way that you explain this is brilliant in its simplicity , This may be boring and you or anyone else doesn't have to read it but -- When I was growing up , my poor working class father [ and mother by the way ] who never had two dimes to rub together , got up at five every morning and went to work at lower grade construction labor jobs day after day after day . Later in life he began to look to a factory job , Why ? Because he knew he would at least be warm in the winter , dry in the rain showers , not have to work in the cold anymore because of his war and work related bodily injuries .and be able to afford his automatically deducted insurance premiums . He also knew that no matter that he had a bronze star , two purple hearts , a combat ribbon and an honorable discharge that he still had to "earn a living " ,that all of that other stuff was just a bitter frosting on the cake .

THAT IS WHAT'S MISSING TODAY . The personal knowledge and accountability of knowing that whatever ones accomplishments , ones abilities , ones personal limitations are , that NO ONE owed them anything but a chance !

This chance to succeed at a dream , That dream ? To have the chance alone to stay one step ahead of the wolf at the door ! And still , although my family fought off many wolves , to be able to .....have a home and "Put food on the table ".

Rightfully so , .............My parents would have been ashamed of America today ! I didn't miss out on much in life for sure because of them and I sure do miss my parents , They taught me more about life by THAT above , than all of the horse shit mentality of entitlement seekers today !

People LIKE to work, ahorseback. They like to accomplish things! What is wrong today is just too many prohibitions to job seekers. And now you have the internet. Do you know how frustrating it is to submit resume after resume to companies who never see you, never talk to you, never call you back because they don't have to respond to you in any way whatsoever. And the competition is fierce. Who can break into an acting career, get that high paying job, get any type of job except part-time thanks to government health care stipulations. Who can get a business off the ground if you are an American citizen when the foreigners are given every break in the world? Who can start a business with all the government regulations, tax requirements, insurances, mandates.

In a nutshell, this country has simply become un-user-friendly.

Luckily there are those who grew up with computers and are savvy knowing all sorts of programs. But these are not easy to learn in a class room setting. On the job is better, so first you have to get the job ... but who will hire you of you are not already proficient. On top of all that the kids have the pressure to make six figures right off the bat!!! And college grads have huge student loans to pay back. No wonder I see young adult males walking to and fro from the game store.

Kathryn, college grads are getting jobs at fast food places because of the lack of jobs in their particular fields. That might be a reason they want to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour. Schools are not trying to emphasis STEM (science, technology, engineering and mathematics) because current and future jobs will require expertise in those areas.

onhorseback commented: " Because he knew he would at least be warm in the winter , dry in the rain showers , not have to work in the cold anymore because of his war and work related bodily injuries .and be able to afford his automatically deducted insurance premiums . He also knew that no matter that he had a bronze star , two purple hearts , a combat ribbon and an honorable discharge that he still had to "earn a living " ,that all of that other stuff was just a bitter frosting on the cake" .

Did you ever stop to think that your father, like millions of others, was used as a pawn to serve the ends of a wealthy and powerful elite? Before and after the war? I can't imagine why you would be proud of the fact that the father you loved was abused his whole life by an evil system. This is a perfect example of Stockholm Syndrome. It is ironic that you and Patty Hearst have so much in common.

It is wonderful that your parents were allowed to work those jobs ahorseback. The notable absence of Blacks is because Black people were not allowed to work those jobs. After slaves were "free", oppression continued through Jim Crow laws. I was born in 1950 and remember not being able to attend schools with white people. Integration started with much resistance in the mid/lalte 50s. Around that time, I remember the white/colored signs disappearing for bathrooms and water fountains.

Jackclee, you compared Asians and indentured servants with former slaves. What similar obstacles did they have? Black people did create their own opportunities. That is were historically black colleges and universities (HBCU) came from. Black organizations were formed to get access to education and jobs. Black sororities and fraternities were formed because they were not allowed in white sororities and universities.

The current thinking on this subject is that integration caused the decline in many black communities.

In cities like Atlanta, there were thriving black communities, such as that around Auburn Avenue. They had their own doctors, dentists, architects and store owners. The professionals provided leadership and positive role models for the young people in the community. Those communities offered hope to young people to get an education and improve their futures.

Then with integration, those role models left the community to move into affluent, white neighborhoods. As they migrated out, the neighborhoods were left with fewer positive role models, less opportunity to dream of a better life, as they were now surrounded exclusively with others struggling to make ends meet. It became a downward spiral with each generation, until those communities became ghettos. When the best of a community, its success stories, always leave and never look back, those left behind feel forgotten, hopeless and inferior.

It actually started with redlining. Realtors would tell white people that a Black person was moving into the neighborhood. Then a lot of for sale signs would go up. I remembered seeing 4 to 5 signs on Fair Park Boulevard at a time. The freeway was built behind our house. That took traffic off of 12th street (in front of our house). People could drive across Little Rock without passing by stores. The stores went out of business. As we became educated, we left our elderly parents in the communities. The late 70s brought the drugs into the community. Gangs left LA/Compton to start drug businesses across the US. There was a large article in the Little Rock newspapers that chronicled the beginning of the drug/gang wars.

Now people are worried about gentrification. I'm not against gentrification if the people in the area are not able to maintain economic stability on their own.

? Only the blacks can answer this. In my opinion, unless they do (answer these questions) the issue will never be discussed productively.HOW exactly are the whites to blame for the plight of the blacks and ...

I addressed this at length with Jacklee. He decided to leave the conversastion.

The challenges for Black people in poor communities are much like those for anyone else who lives in the poor communities.

Those "out of wedlock" births are a real problem. I would tell students they shouldn't have kids until they can afford them. Unfortunately, that is the reality they see on television and social media. I tell them that they are not celebrities who can afford to have those kids. Celebrities' kids are often just as jacked up as inner city kids.

You copied Jacklee's comments. If you look under them you will see my lengthy response.

Some try to argue that the schools are bad. If that is so, why would some students have high GPAs, test scores and be accepted to Ivy League schools.

Kids need good parenting and support. However, some (few) kids are determined even though they don't get it.

Some people are in poor neighborhoods that were not always poor. My neighborhood was mixed with professional and blue collar Black people. Redlining made white people, who incidentally lived on the next street, leave the community. Freeways made it possible for white people to get nice houses in the suburbs, drive across the city, without touching a city street. Older Black people who had lived in their homes 50/60 years didn't have enough equity in their homes to move out. As we became educated we left the area. That's how most poor inner city areas happened.

How hard would it be for all of us to just follow these recommendations?

Whites (as all people) must adhere to the following boundaries and have the discipline to act according to these tenets:A. No unlawful discrimination. B. No unjust denial of opportunities to anyone.C. No pre-judging based on one's individual preferences regarding: 1. Behavior 2. Appearances

If you truly want to know the answer to these questions , and more, you are in luck. I suggest you read "Darkwater: Voices from within the Veil" by W.E.B. Dubois. It would also help to watch many of the videos posted on YouTube of the Honorable Reverend Louis Farrakhan.

I never knew anyone on welfare until I graduated from high school. An 18-year old girl I went to elementary school was receiving welfare because she was raising her 3 younger brother and 1 younger sister. Their mom had recently died of cancer.

My dad had an 8th grade education but he worked 18 hours a day easily. He was a red cap at the train station and then did painting, electrical work and odds and ins to make enough money to provide for us.

After I graduated from college and came to California, I then began to meet people on welfare.

My family lived in a "country" area with lots of land. Everyone at the church was related. We lived in Little Rock but always drove to the country to visit our family and go to church. They farmed and laid bricks. Over the years the land has become prime real estate, near the Arkansas River and people are now building mansions there.

MediaWe always see crimes committed by Blacks on television which leads people to believe that "ALL" Black people are violent, dangerous, lawbreakers. It doesn't matter that neighborhoods are mixed in middle class areas and there is very little crime. There are Blacks in professional jobs that white people know by name; however, their perception is what they see on television.

The inner city program starts with children (12-17) having children. They have unstable lives and boyfriends. Low paying, unstable or no jobs. This leads into all of the other stuff that goes on. The inner city neighborhoods are not just Black people. I do feel this is an area where we, African Americans, should be mentoring and encouraging our relatives (that's who they are) to get educated, stable employment and spend quality time with their kids. This is mandatory.

Your pointis well taken, with noted exception of those indiginous to this continent, the experience of African Americans have been historically amonst the worse. Other immigrant groups came to America voluntarily prepared for and elide in the land that they have chosen. White people, regardless of origin did not have the physical differences to identify them for disparate treatment. So the experiences of Irish, Jews, etc., are really not the same as they could assimilate much more easily in comparison.

TV does distort the image of black people. We have updated versions of "the Jeffersons" and such where wealth is ridiculously flaunted, or reality based gritty ghetto based life dramas. People living lives in constant danger as the norm, in comparison with things like "The Brady Bunch",what a contrast.

I have many debates with others that see all black folks as living on the dole in some sort of fashion, this is mostly reinforced through what people constantly hear inpublic discourse or what is seen on TV.

It is a sinister program by the corporate master to give certain segments of the poor the impression that some are deserving and some are not. That is the thrust of the Trump phenomenon. Social Services and such are only a disaster when Minority groups are the recipient of such programs.

I missed this comment. Yes, I have often heard the ridiculous comparisons made between the African slaves and the Irish, as well as the propaganda about how various tribes in Africa sold members of other tribes into slavery. Comments like these are simply tools of racism. Just like a carpenter will always carry a hammer, we can always count on the racist to offer an anecdote to help mitigate the evil perpetrated against the African and the Indigenous by the European Invaders. Any student of history knows that there is simply no comparison whatsoever.

And you are correct concerning the recipients of various government programs. And this happens all across the board. In the aftermath of Katrina black people looking for food were portrayed as "looters", whereas the white people doing the same thing were portrayed as "good white folks" who were simply starving and looking for food. The racism of the media was so obvious that Saturday Night Live even did a skit about it. There are far more whites receiving public assistance than minorities. And if there happens to be a disproportionate amount of black people on welfare then it should be no great mystery why. And that is because there are a disproportionate amount of white employers who will not hire black people.

Many white people get tired of hearing about racism. But I am tired of living under an oppressive racist system that glorifies a racist past with images of tyrants on the money, grotesque statues and monuments, holidays, and stupid songs that glorify war and Manifest Destiny. My people were free long before the European Invaders came here uninvited, but certainly not after. I cannot express to you how frustrating it is to hear some moron tell me how a bunch of slave owners, thieves, rapists, and murderers made me "free" after killing a majority of my people, and then stealing all of the land and the resources.

Tribes sold other tribes, tools of racism, European invaders, black looters, white folks looking for food, an oppressive racist system, your people... Geez, you must be having a bad week.

Your people were killing and mutilating each other long before the slave trade hit our American shores. There is no justification for our acceptance of slavery, but there is also no validity to your "our people were free before the European invaders rationalization.

Come on bud, yes, those were awful dehumanizing times, but we progressed. We have gone from the horror of slavery and accepted overt racism to admitting those wrongs and strenuous efforts to correct them. We are now at a place where racism still exists, but only overtly in the minds and actions of Neanderthals, and covertly in the minds and actions of the fearful.

I am old enough to still have to fight the old ingrained racism of my generation, but also old enough to see that to my grown children color is a non-issue. My kids, (my youngest is 21), don't even see color. That isn't a testament to my parenting, it is a testament to the strides we have made as a society. I would like to take credit for their attitudes, but I see the same thing in their friends.

Of course there are still young knuckle-heads that are racist as hell, but they are the exception and not the norm - in my view. I also see the inequities that blacks still endure, all those points that you and Dianne speak off, that still exist. But they are rapidly becoming the exception rather than the norm - in my view. Are we living in two different worlds? Has your life experience so jaded your view that you now agree with WB's "evil Europeans" tirades?

There is so much more in your post to criticize, but damn Cred, do you really see where we are now as a society as so bad that you would buy into WB's 500-year old white devils rants?

ps. Yes, I am one of those white folks that is tired of hearing those clarion calls of racism. We are trying. We are trying very hard. A leopard doesn't change its spot overnight. But, I think the last 50 years have proven that we are trying to grow beyond those attitudes. I also think you know that, so what's up with this WB endorsement? Somebody pee in your Cheerios?

pss. Sorry for the tirade, but I recently watched a video comparing police actions relative to legal open-carry situations involving a white man and a black man walking down the street with a back-slung assault rifle. The black man did not fare well. It upset me, it was not a proud moment for us white folks. We still have a ways to go, but we are trying. And to hear what I viewed as a rational black man endorsing WB's racist views was a bit much. So give us a break will ya?

GA

[added] oops, looks like I responded to a WB comment as yours Credence2, sorry bud. I will meet you at the woodshed.

If you are an educated person then I see you have wasted your money. Like so many here, you are quick to slander, but you have no originality. If rape, murder, thievery, and genocide are not evil, then please explain to the world why they are not. If the Europeans who perpetrated these crimes against humanity were not evil, then what should we call them? Good 'ol boys? And since a majority of white Americans continue to celebrate this evil legacy with holidays and parades, I would challenge anyone to justify it. But you cannot justify it. It doesn't matter what the African did to the African, or what the Indigenous did to the Indigenous before the squatters came. You can save that hillbilly wisdom for your local watering hole.

The African did not come here to enslave,rape, dispossess, and murder my people. Neither did the Vietnamese, the North Koreans or the Iraqis. And there was no single Indigenous nation that covered the entire continent like a swarm of hungry locusts devouring everything in sight. It was the European. You do not like that I call a spade a spade because it is not politically correct. But I have no more concern for your frail sensibilities than you do for the slaughter of over 100 million of my people, the enslavement of the African, or the U.S. proxy war that has killed thousands of children in Syria. All you can do is slander like a school yard bully. But guess what my friend, I am not going away.You have nothing of worth to offer, and nothing to say, and so you have come once again to remind us.

Wrench-bisket , How well you have used the race card over the last couple of years , How often it has been thrown down by you to defend the failed culture of your people . Instead of even beginning to explain the real cause or cure of the diseased nature of your own people , instead of posting one image of the absolute failure of Native Americans , Pine Ridge for example , or the native populations of the northwest , You continue to blame someone who lived three or four hundred years ago. You really need to get around more though , your people are their own worst enemy on the Rez . Number one cause -- Fatherless homes . Welcome to the blame - game -rodeo , Wrench-bisket !

And so, since you have used this same derogatory approach many times before, I see it is your weapon of choice. The Lakota are among the bravest of warriors, and they were one of the last group of human beings on this continent to fight against this evil empire. I have nothing but respect for the Lakota, and the people of Pine Ridge. Apparently they are not so failed since they have recently successfully halted the Keystone XL pipeline. Some of these great warriors have commented: "Dead or in Prison Before We Allow the KXL Pipeline". And I stand in solidarity with them.

It is better to die standing on your feet than crawling on your knees. My mother and father were also great warriors. They armed themselves, and on several occasions fired upon groups of white racist cowards who sought to intimidate and remove them from our beautiful 200 acre farm during the 1950's. As I grew older, I realized that many of these racists were poor, lived in rusty trailers, slept with their sisters and daughters, and spent most of their free time at the local taverns. I grew up with plenty of love, education, and money, as my parents made sure of that. Your version of the Indigenous peoples of this continent is what came out of a Cracker Jack box, as it is clear you have not educated yourself concerning American History. And I am not doing so bad either. Anyone can see that I am more educated,creative, and articulate, than those who only seek to slander and ridicule. I was born in the lap of luxury, but even if I should die a pauper, I will still possess more than the evil and arrogant men who journey through this world clueless, and without a soul. My weapon of choice is truth and knowledge. This is why I do not attack the character of my adversaries as much, or as viciously as they attack mine. I do not need to, as their ignorance speaks for itself.

Cleaning up my own house? I am glad you mentioned that. That is exactly what I am doing here. I am kicking the dust off of my heels. I am part of a growing movement among African, Indigenous, and Mixed Blood people. We are moving and active in many directions, and we are united in solidarity. The imaginary, stereotypical images that you carry around in your head of poor drunken "Indians", the ghetto black, or the "good Negro" who tap dances, waves Old Glory,and sings a rousing rendition of "The Star Spangled Banner" will be your downfall. The white man likes to talk about how he brought the gift of "free speech" into the New World. And so, here I am enjoying all of that free speech that the good white man has bestowed upon me. Hold on, because the best is yet to come! Hafa Adai!

Wrench , Personally , I have visited , traveled in and done trading in six or seven Native American Indian reservations inside America's borders , I have visited Mexico and listened as Mexican indigenous people described the treatment of their peoples by whatever form of government Mexico has , I have seen the Mayan ruins of a culture long gone and know the persecution there , I have also studied in my own life , the trials and tribulations of Native Americans here including but not limited to my own relatives , The Abenaki tribe in northern New England of whom are my relations by marriage and my own native and non-native bloodlines .

But never have I heard such a phony accusatory attitude as yours , You are a phony , you are a phony political re-actionist , your rants are in affect phony in themselves , your whole purpose in these forums has proven to be nothing but -Prof. Ward Churchill like phony-isms . The most obvious proof of this , is in the horrid condition of your own native lands , villages and peoples .

I would challenge ANYONE to travel there in any number of government or self funded reservations and observe the power of the victim-ology inflicted on a people...... BY THIER OWN TRIBAL LEADERSHIP..

A Crackerjack Box knowledge ? Look no further than your own immature attitude and responses to all of these political forums you have been involved in , Wrench , look in the mirror!

Well, GA, you could have just hit the delete key to remove misdirected comments. I think that there is an alterior motive here, a $64,000 question, that thing that sticks in your craw, you know?

How much is WB and I on the 'same page', and if we are not always? We share the 'same book', rather than being separated by libraries across town. Educating people from our perspective may not always be comforting, that is of course, if getting to the truth is an objective.

As for my week? I am doing just fine. My schtick is slavery and hypocrisy. My expectation for a Govermnent and society that heralds itself as a democracy, based upon the rule of law with equality of man as a foundation, is a bit more than I would expect from nomadic tribes, Japanese or Nazi fascists. I am holding America to a higher standard, because she always tells us that she deserves to be.

I can only say that in regards to 'racism' there has been improvement to the extent that more of overt examples has disappeared. But there is still work to do. While, I can point to the article, there was account where DAVID Duke, renown white supremacist, was running for either Govenor or Senate in Louisiana, he lost, but gathered 60 percent of the White vote. People of color in the state were responsible for the man's defeat. Things appear calm on the surface but there can still be a substantial cauldron underneath. Such is my view of race relations in America, today. Duke's racist record was either embraced by so many whites or considered merely incedental in their choice. Of course, WE, are to look at such things differently. That is what many of us see in Trump.

This is never personal. I am most confident that you and many of the folks in this forum, even those in an adversarial place, are not deliberately behind the events having its roots so long ago. Regardless, there still remain systemic and institutional constructs within our society much of it race based and quite subtle, where we can't too soon rest upon our laurels.

As for the "evil european tirade". My belief is that I have seen so much brutality and savagery among the human family, irregardless of race and ethnicity, I really cannot be sure that given the same circumstances of having the technological advantages of firearms and steel combined with decimation of indiginous populations with disease in a unique time in world history, that neither Asians or Africans would have behaved any differently were there circumstances the same. It is intersting though, how the advocacy of "whiteness" as opposed to darker skin seems to be the rule over the entire hemisphere. The tenets of systemic pro white and light skinned racism and race prejudice has tenacles that wrap around the planet.

Even Malcolm X toward the end of his life, having gone to Mecca in 1964 as a adherent of Islam worshipping with whites on a basis of equality, recognized a systemic problem in AMERICAN society, that was far more involved than just black people and whitepeople.

I wondered while in Panama, the racial hierarchy with all the privileges associated with those on the top always went to the whites or lighter skin? I also asked why, when in St. Martaan a few years ago, skin bleaching cream was still quite the rage?

I toured Europe as a young man during the late Seventies. It was like being raised on the moon and leaving the compound each time to go outside with the needed life support apparatus, down to my moon boots. It is a habit you don't think about, like looking both ways before crossing the street. My introduction to life in Europe was like walking around in a space suit on Waikiki. How ridiculous is that?The subtle constructs seem to disappear, I was accepted implicitly, revealed even in little forms of communication but telling things like body language. All the psychological baggage associated with being black in America disappears, and it was all so much superfluous stuff. My point is that there need not be angst between us because one is black and one is white. America's racial history is unique and has had sinister implications relative to other societies. While I had issues with the West Germans, the biggest one was the mistake of associating with AMERICAN tourists. We had language issues, etiquette issues, but my basic humanity and subsequent equality were never in question.

Wrench is right about the fact that assimilation in America was far more difficult among race and ethnicities with disguishing physical characteristics verses Jews or Irish.

Wrench is right and I am appalled that people could think that internment of Japanese-AMERICAN people during World War II did not have a substantial racial component.

I have said quite a bit. As long as the leopard is aware that the spot changing process must be continuous, we too, can be on the same page.

Under today's circumstances would you choose to be a black person, honestly, if you had a choice?

Michelle has reiterated this statement endlessly. Yes, the ancestors of Black Americans were enslaved. Yes again, slavery is a part of Black American history. Yes, it should be acknowledged but don't incessantly dwell upon the issue. Slavery is only a part of Black history. Blacks created empires in Africa. Black Americans were inventors & many inventions were & still are created by them but aren't acknowledged. There IS more to Black history than slavery.

As to Bill O'Reilly, slavery was hellish. Slaves were treated as chattel or worse. Slaves ate the worst food & oftentimes had the worst accommodations. Bill, read some slave narratives, thank you. Slaves were abused at will, whipped for the slightest offenses. Families separated at will. Women abused. Men abused. Oh Bill, please SHUT UP.......about slavery. Oh Bill, I forgot to interject, Irish people were also viewed & treated as second class citizens by the British. The British treated Irish as Blacks; even early America saw the Irish as Blacks, read some books on history. Read the book THE GANGS OF NEW YORK, also watch the movie of the same name, directed by Martin Scorsese. The Irish when they entered America weren't welcomed at all. Also watch the PBS series, The Irish in America: The Long Journey Home. This series details how the Irish were treated in America. The series further indicated that the Irish became respectable only when John F. Kennedy was elected President of the United in 1960.

I took the First Lady's statement to be one of pure joy and wonder at how far we've come as a nation.

Very, very few Scots or Irish were in the colonies voluntarily when the White House was built. The White House was built by slaves both black and white* and by some people who weren't slaves. It's history and Michelle is 1000% right that we've made incredible progress since then.

*Anyone bought from a kidnapper or directly kidnapped to do labor for someone else or the still indentured offspring of such a person is a slave, no matter what paperwork has been created around the kidnapping and sale.

A few were assimilated in America, living in middle & upper class communities & suburbs but many were lower middle class, working class & poor, living in ethnic enclaves. The Irish really didn't become respectable until the Kennedy collection. Now, many Irish are what one would call solidly middle, upper middle, & even rich. To many Caucasian ethnics of Polish, Italian, Greek, & Slavic backgrounds, the Irish are seen as WASPs or as near WASPs as possible(re: the book-THE RISE OF THE UNMELTABLE ETHNICS by Michael Novak.) The PBS series The Irish in America-The Long Journey Home discusses how the Kennedy election finally made the Irish respectable & acceptable in American culture & society.

After Kennedy was elected, being Irish was at last respectable. The Irish finally arrived & become established. Before then, the Irish were suspect and second class citizens. Yes, there were lace curtain Irish before(the Irish upper class) which the Kennedys were part of. However, even the Irish moneyed were not considered to be real society. The Kennedys had to fight to be accepted. Joseph Kennedy was denied a top political office in the 1930s; he vowed & fought to make sure that his sons would get the political opportunities he was denied.

Thanks, it seemed that1960was late for assimilation. But, yourpointiswell taken, Joseph Sr. did have trouble being accepted among the Boston leading families due to Anti-Irish bigotry, as I had once read. Much of this during the 1920s and perhaps even the thirties. FDR made him ambassador to Great Britain in the late 1930's, a pretty critical spot considering that war clouds were in the air. FDR contemplated this possibility and picked his ambassador with care. Nice Call.

No, she should not have said it. In fact, continually bringing up the oppression of the Black race is causing more unrest. It's time to put it down. And using it for an excuse is unethical. Blacks have more rights now than ever. If you disagree, fine. But wait till you are over 50, looking for a job, and are a white female,, then you'll know about discrimination.

You say that bringing up the oppression of the African is causing more unrest, but I fear you don't know the half of it. What's causing even more unrest is American hypocrisy. You say you don't want to hear about slavery. Well guess what? I don't either, but every time I look at a one dollar bill I see a slave owner, and it bothers me. When I look at the Statue of Liberty it also bothers me, and creates unrest in my soul. When I see the Statue of Liberty I see Invaders coming to this continent; uninvited aliens killing my people any way that they could; killing them with the biological weapon of smallpox, raping the women, burning my ancestors alive, and stealing the land, the resources, and the riches of an entire continent.

And as the Americans were completing their masterpiece of genocide, they erected a grotesque statue to invite the whole world to come and plunder what was left. When I look at Mt Rushmore I get the same feeling. I get the same feeling on Columbus Day, and the 4th of July. But the Americans keep shoving the past in my face with their statues, their holidays, their currency and their traditions. Michelle Obama only made one speech and it caused a great stir. But what I have just described is continuous and non-stop; from the day I was born unto this very moment. So yes, I can relate to your frustration ... x one million.

But many Americans do not recognize my people as being significant. They view the Indigenous and the African as two different races of people struggling to make it in a white world; trying to become as white as we can on the inside. Yes, that is true for some, but there are many now who are starting to reclaim their heritage, and to remember who they are, and who they are not. The people are being educated, de-programmed, and de-colonized. Soon the Americans will have a choice to make. They can choose to stay here and live in a truly multi-cultural society, or they can go back to Europa, and create a new American Dream. I will not stand in their way.

Racism - our own, not that of others - is so very often as much a matter of perception and of choice as anything else, and in the US with it's "mongrelized" mixing of races that is even more true. Unless a recent immigrant is from a racially still fairly "pure" part of the world, we are ALL a mix of many races.

I seem to remember you saying you were German - would it please you more and make you happier to recognize and accept that you are reaping the benefits of the hard work and sacrifices of your ancestors? That that work and sacrifice is partially responsible for what you are and what you have attained, that it is something to be proud of rather than disdainful?

No, the ends does not justify the means. That is the twisted logic of Manifest Destiny. And as far as my German half is concerned, I give it very little thought. I was treated not much differently growing up as the black children. I was able to enjoy receiving all of the usual racial epithets that the black kids enjoyed. With the exception of the N-word. This particular epithet was usually preceded with the word "prairie" as a qualifier.

The whites treated me as an outcast, for no other reason than the shape of my face and the color of my skin. But overall, the black people in our community treated me like a human being. They accepted me based on my character, and not because of the way I looked, or my race. I can be who I want to be. It is only my responsibilty to honor the people that I love, and those who have lifted me up when I could not stand up on my own. It would be foolish of me to embrace a system and a people who kicked me to the curb on the day that I was born. But I suppose you feel that a tree made crooked should somehow grow up straight.

That was a common term where I grew up in the Midwest, near the Mason Dixon Line. It was an adjective used to distinguish between the Black people,and the Indigenous. Apparently because they associated us with living on the open prairie prior to the invasion; n-gg-- or prairie n-gg--, depending. It was so racist where I lived that dark skinned Italians were constantly harassed as well. And it never stopped. My home life was peaceful on the farm. But outside of my comfort zone it was a constant battle.

It was a relief when I was stationed at Pearl Harbor at the age of 17. It was the first time in my life that I felt at ease in public. I looked a lot like the local people, and I blended in to the community, instead of standing out like a sore thumb. It was in Hawaii that I experienced for the first time a small taste of what it feels like to be in the majority. It was a great feeling. And that is one of the drawbacks of integration. I would have preferred going to an all Black school, or an Indigenous school, instead of trying to get an education amidst all of the racist nonsense that was always going on.

In Hawaii I have always had that sense of a this racial burden being lifted in Hawaii, one of the few places where being 'white' was not always an advantage. It not all about being. 'White'. I found a life equivalent to a breath of fresh air when I toured much of the Western Europe in the late 1970's. It was like dropping a lifetime worth of psychological baggage that I no longer needed. Much like walking around in a space suit on Waikiki Beach, did I think that I was still on the moon? The Eagle has Landed? American and history and such are the sources of unique experiences.

Interesting! I don't know about anyone else but I'm learning a lot and getting different perspectives. I really hope someone will explain how Obama has been divisive. I haven't gotten the sense that Black people feel he has done a lot for them. I don't really know what he could have done. He is not the president of the Black people but of everyone.

I've come to realize that if you are pleasing everyone there is something really wrong with you. Leaders cannot please everyone. I'm sure Obama has more of an appreciation for GW now.

His job was to focus on the needs of all citizens, being a Democrat putting his attention on working and middle classes that make up the bulk of the American electorate. If he focused on this in earnest, he would help Black folks as well. Considering the obstructionism from the GOP side, he did as well as possible. I certainly could not have expected anymore from a McCain or Romney except double down on 'trickle down'. There have been fundamental changes in the AMERICAN economy that do not allow us to have the same expectations or come to the same conclusions that we could have in the past historical economic downturns. This is bigger than any one administration and to combat it requires a progressive reassessment and unified effort from both political parties. This has yet to be accomplished.

That's what drives me nuts about political parties. I hate the politics of campaiigning. People can only say wat they support and would like to do. One person cannot make changes without cooperation. Then the blame game starts. The blame is usually by party, class or race.

American government was designed to be weak so as not to threaten the interests of individuals. You can see this as wonderful for personal freedom or merely wonderful for individuals with great personal power (generally derived from money).

I reckon it makes a mockery of democracy when politicians cannot follow through on campaign promises, governments cannot honour international treaties that they have signed and the normal situation is paralysis.

To the contrary , before Obama , there was far,far less divisive rhetoric , of racism or political ideologies , I believe as many do that he planned to divide . From the "Beer Summit " that any other leader would have totally ignored and watched disappear , to every " Michael Brown" incident Obama chose to step right into the pot and then turn the heat up . How many dozens of times has the likes of AL Sharpton been in the white House and been given full run of the media situation ?

Pres. Obama is very much complicit in all of this negativity today ! I would ask this question and await all answers !

Where is the outrage for other , then minorities ---today ? The native American , the Irish , the Chinese rail road workers , the Italians , what about the Appalachians TODAY , what about the mass influx of "Indentured Servitude "of the poor in our history as recently as the nineteen thirties and forties ? I have found the forms in public records looking up my own genealogy One would think that the only offenses ever perpetrated in America was to the black population ? My advice to blacks , Get over " racism ", until recently it barely exists but FROM blacks themselves !

I think President Obama was speaking specifically to incidences of police/suspect interaction where the suspect ends of dead. I look at Michael Brown in a completely different light from most of the others. I know others who feel the same way. Michael Brown had just committed a crime, roughed up a clerk and walked defiantly in the middle of the street which was a known offense.

Trayvon Martin should be alive today. Tamir Rice should be alive today. Eric (cigarette guy) should be alive today. Freddy Gray should be alive today. There are many others.

As a teacher I engaged many students with attitudes. Some were dangerous just having left juvy for attacking adults. I was trained to verbally descalate students. If they had a weapon or appeared animated, ready to attack, we were to call security.

The objective is to arrest, if there is a reason, and take to court for trial. I've heard that white people think Black people are violent. Sometimes the officers are upset because suspects are talking trash. I hear trash talking all the time as a teacher. In the inner city, trash talking is part of the culture. They trash talk to each other in other to survive in that environment or because it is fun. Officers should know how to function in that environment.

If you know of a high incidence where another group being killed in similar instances, please let me know. They are obviously not being videod and put on social media.

Praise God, my father was in my home. There is a disproportionate number of homes without fathers in inner city areas. However, not everyone in inner city areas has a criminal record and/or commit crimes. I talk to my students about the consequences of no father in the home and the vicious circle that can be created.

Well if babies are being aborted, they can't commit crimes. I'm pro life but wondering how this fits into the point you are making.

Do you know what percent of black children have a record before the age of 20. I know many who don't. A small group of criminals can hold a community hostage.

Please explain the sysematic racism you are implying.

"ethnicities" needing to clean their own houses is a stereotype. Do you work with any Black people? Can you name 10 Black people you know who need to clean their houses?

Congratulations , You want to cure racism in America and fall right into the same blame game of most other liberals , "ITS GOT TO BE ANYONE ELSES FAULT ,BUT MINE ". that's the problem with liberally infested forums , they are just as delusionary anywhere else.

The people who are saying Obama has been dividing the nation are either very racist, or simply aren't very educated. The president of the United States answers to the ruling elite. For instance: Abraham Lincoln rebuked the bankers who wanted to finance the Civil War at a high interest rate; a move that would have given them complete control, and enslaved the populace to an enormous debt; creating a system similar to the current Federal Reserve. As a result, Lincoln was assassinated. John Kennedy was also going after the Federal Reserve, and threatening their supremacy which had existed since 1913. He also was assassinated. I am certain that if Obama seriously challenged the status quo he would end up dead, just like Kennedy and Lincoln.

It is remarkable that people are saying that Obama has created a racial divide, since many black people feel he hasn't done enough to address racial inequality. People try to simplify politics, and the machinations of world governments, and it is much more complicated than that. We really can't point to one source, such as Obama, and suggest that he is the mastermind behind a racial divide that has existed for over 500 years! That is simply absurd. The FBI released a report in 2006 that the Ku Klux Klan had infiltrated police departments across the United States. That was ten years ago. I think we can agree that their goal wasn't simply to issue parking tickets! Their goal has always been to disrupt and to destroy the black community.

By infiltrating police departments the Klan has been able to attack the black community on several fronts. They have been able to insure a steady flow of narcotics and other illicit drugs into the inner cities. Of course this serves a four-fold purpose: it cripples the black community through drug addiction, increases the prison population which brings in big revenue for the state, increases revenue for the Klan, and encourages a negative racial stereotype among the mainstream.They can also use their influence to incite violence among rival gangs. This helps to demoralize the black community, as well as providing more fodder for the "prison for profit" system. The people who are accusing Obama and Black Lives Matter of increasing racial tension aren't even considering this angle. But when we consider the history of the Klan, along with the FBI report, and a little common sense, we arrive at a conclusion that is far more tangible than a conspiracy theory.

During the Jim Crow era the Klan operated more overtly. Today, they engage in more covert operations. Rather than directly attack the black community, they attack by proxy. This is a far more effective and comprehensive approach. By using their influence in Law Enforcement and other areas of government, they are able to manipulate the black community of the inner city and create the false impression that the puppet is the sole perpetrator, and that the oppressed are the violent aggressors. Many of the comments here reveal that this approach has been very effective.

My own g'grandparents moved West and homesteaded in a little valley ironically less than 50 miles from where I live now. I have the diary of one of their kids, telling of life there, where g'grandma was the first white woman to ever enter the valley and there was only one other person living there.

I've never heard of any run ins with any natives - there is no mention at all. I assume that the valley was, indeed, empty - reasonable as it was a small place and probably not large enough to support a village without agriculture while a day's walk away was a much larger valley with a beautiful lake. The stories in that little book were telling - it was not an easy life for them, and I appreciate and honor what they did and accomplished. Digging miles of irrigation canal, for instance, by hand and without even a transit to maintain grade. Building a log home single handedly and fencing acres of farm land with hand cut fencing. Raising a family, including a crippled girl (grandma) with any services or sales a 3 day wagon drive away.

So what evils did they commit? Or their parents, moving from Europe to the East Coast of America? Did the color of their skin define their evil? Did the sins of people 300 years before, on a different continent, transmit to anyone with the same color of skin? Were all your German ancestors evil because of white skin - you aren't tainted because although you carry the genes your skin tone is slightly different than "pure" Nordic Caucasian?

How dare you. Underneath we are all bloody red made by the same creator who gave us brains, hands and senses. How dare anyone pinpoint this negative BS called "racism." YES, there were slaves SO WHAT? YES there were whites looking for freedom of religion, loving God, who got ahold of this country and brought forth a wave of others who took it over by hook and crook. SO WHAT? It is behind us now. Why, for the love of humanity, look back. Can it do any good to rehash the mistakes of the past????? For the hundredth time, we can make this country work thanks to a perfectly fine Constitution. Cease pinpointing negative and just work toward solutions. What are the solutions? Common Sense, Respect and Love of the spirit operating in each and every Living soul!

No Kathryn, my blood is not the same color red. My blood is not tainted with greed, indifference, and genocide. Nor do I subscribe to the popular notion that we all have the same creator. That is just another Eurocentric concept that has poisoned the minds of the people.

Obviously you missed the point entirely. I was responding to someone who was bemoaning the fact that Michelle Obama was bringing up the past with her comment; a past that they felt should not be mentioned. But it is always a one way street in this respect with many Americans. They don't want us to speak of the atrocities, and the evil committed by their ancestors, and if we do they accuse us of dwelling on the past. But they, on the other hand, freely dwell on the past when they celebrate holidays like Columbus Day, and the 4th of July. But what they do is even worse, because they are glorifying evil, and ignoring the humanity of the First Nations, and the African slaves.

They bring up the past by putting faces of tyrants and slave owners on currency, and by erecting monuments that glorify an evil past. But the descendants of the European Invaders cannot have it both ways. And we will remind them at every turn, as we are exercising our freedom of speech; not a freedom of speech granted by a slave master, but the freedom of speech bestowed upon us by "our" God, and "our" creator. It is the same freedom of speech my ancestors enjoyed prior to 1492.

But when we look to the Middle East we see that the past is not behind us. The same Imperialist aggression that stole an entire continent and named it America is at work today in the Middle East. Innocent men, women, and children are dying because of the greedy Americans and their evil allies who will stop at nothing less than world domination. And now they are about to start World War III by defying Russia's warnings, and by placing their weapons of mass destruction on her doorstep. And this is the side that you are rooting for?

Almost All Native and African Americans have assimilated into the American mainstream of lifestyle , just like the rest of us ,where ever we were from ! Most of those that have , have done so realizing the reality of America's [ and the rest of the worlds ] often racial and colorful history ,...The problem with those like the above opinions is that they are mired in the false flags of modern apologist re-writers of ALL our REAL history . Their psyche is of an ego-centric , artistic literary opportunist , He is one of the kind that you would NEVER hear speak the way that he does IF he were in public . The likes of these people have a moral compass of opportunist liberal artistic flair in their presentations, Don't forget , as I have not , that you will find that his opinion of America's history is based on three things - The false faults of a raping, pillaging Columbus - [who never set foot on America soil ] the inclusion of like minded "others " in their victimhood -- and the modern anti- American atmosphere being promoted by liberal leadership in our government today . For them , Its also as if Slavery too was an American invention , an American occurrence only , instead of a world wide occurrence where most slaves were corralled , transported and sold by their own people !

If we ignore the miss-informed opportunist's of today ,they will recede into the woodwork from which they arrived , once the sympathetic political atmosphere they thoroughly enjoy , has been thrown out of office or impeached !

Your veiled threats are laughable. But of course, I am sure that such a brave man as yourself would speak your mind anywhere. I'm sure that you would have no problem speaking at a rally for the supporters of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, or Black Lives Matter. I am also sure that you would cheerfully stand in front of 500 members of the Palestine Liberation Organization and explain to them why they all have a "victim mentality", and why they should step up to the plate and go with the flow of Colonialism.

The atrocities of Columbus are well illustrated in the written account of Bartolome de las Casas entitled: A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies and Historia de Las Indias:

The journal of Columbus also illustrates his evil intent, and the excerpt in the image I provided here is from his journal. I learned the following by the time I was in the 5th grade: The Caribbean (also known as the West Indies) is a region of the Americas consisting of the Caribbean Sea, its islands, and the surrounding coasts. The region is located southeast of North America, east of Central America, and to the northwest of South America.

And apparently the New World Encyclopedia knows it too, as the preceding excerpt is from their page. So it appears that Columbus did set foot on American soil.

Furthermore, it would be quite ridiculous of the nations of North and South America to celebrate a man credited with the "discovery of America" when he never set foot on American soil! It appears that you are under the false impression that the only "Americans" on this side of the world are from the United States. But anyone living on this continent, whether it be the U.S. Mexico, Puerto Rico, Cuba, or Argentina is considered an American. Gee Archie! Imagine that. There is actually a communist nation in America, replete with American citizens who are communists!

But you are right about one thing, Slavery was not an American invention. Slavery preceded the Roman Empire. However, the slavery that existed on the continent of America after the Invasion of 1492 was originally promoted and sanctioned by the Catholic Church, under the direction of Pope Nicholas V, who issued the papal bull "Dum Diversas" in 1452. This document authorized Afonso V of Portugal to conquer Saracens and pagans and consign them to "perpetual servitude". This is the evil work that planted the seeds of racism which had not previoulsy existed in the world, and which later led to the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. The Dum Diversas mitigated the evils of slavery in the minds of many Christian peasants; an ignorant mass of humanity who were led to believe through this evil document that it was the duty of the European Christian to enslave and dispossess all non-Christians, and that it was Gods will for them to do so. This is the mindset that later led to the concept of Manifest Destiny.

Yes, slavery did not begin in America, and neither did rape and murder. And so I suggest that the next time someone is accused of rape or murder that you should stand in their defense! You should inform the judge and jury that rape and murder did not begin in America, and that the accused was only doing what millions of men had done before him, since the beginning of time. You could also admonish his accusers to stop whining. People are raped and murdered every day, and these "victims" should get over it, and stop living in the past. Right?

Black Lives Matter, A.I.M., the Mexica Movment, and many other educational, and activist organizations, are proof that we have not "faded into the woodwork". In fact, we are in the processes of "replacing the woodwork" with a design that is far more appealing.

How easily you speak of the trials and tribulations of ALL of mankind a few hundred years ago ! Not having either been there at the time not suffering for one moment of your own modern day life. How easily YOU assume the victim-ology , the probable assumption of reparations , the horribly recorded suffrage of many peoples of ALL races ,White , Black, Brown or Red ALL for you own personal grandiose apparently !

It is actually shameful in my mind to have ever had had to explain the poverty of my own upbringing , or for that matter , any one here in America today ! There is however , far too much poverty and victim-ology even today CAUSED by poor leadership at the local levels . I see it in Appalachia in the poverty of a nations dying need of a natural resource . I've seen it on modern day Native American Reservations where apparently the subsidies and trust funds from the federal government are delivered to a few " Tribal Elders " monthly who drive Caddies , BMW's , live in fine houses while 99 % percent of the tribe suffer from extreme alcoholism , drug abuse , crack cocaine , meth use and extreme hunger ! AND where the federal Government has no jurisdiction to interfere in the tribal elders economic abuse !

if YOU seriously believe America owes something MORE to Native American Tribes for the SELF abuse of alcoholism and drugs ,For the abuses by YOUR OWN TRIBAL ELDERS , Then YOU sir are way out of line in the course of Blame you throw at all other Americans today ! At this point in History -- it should be paramount that you blame your own leadership for economic corruption , graft , and theft of federal resources ALREADY allocated for the benefit of your people from trust funds well over a hundred years old . ! Your shameful rants of accusatory posts that ALWAYS blame Uncle Sam ; Are nothing more than a waste of human voice spent on a blame game undeserved by others and fully caused by YOUR OWN LEADERS !

You were not a victim nor I a perpetrator .

Wrench - Clean Up Your Own House First - and then I will listen seriously to you !

Your response is typical, and has no relevance to my original post. Instead, you offer up a rambling, disjointed helping of gobbledygook to make yourself feel better about being on the wrong side, and cheering for the losers. Hold on to your cowboy hat,pack up the velvet Elvis posters, and circle the wagons. As Karen Carpenter sang, "We've Only Just Begun!"

And you , are totally incapable of even articulating a realistic approach to begin discussing the problems of your own people ! That is the saddest part --your people ,supposedly the native American , will only gain ground in the freest nation , the freest economic atmosphere in the world in the world by blaming Columbus !

ahorseback: "That is the saddest part --your people ,supposedly the native American , will only gain ground in the freest nation , the freest economic atmosphere in the world in the world by blaming Columbus !"

And yet, Trump wants to make America Great Again. It sounds like you think it is already great. Of course you think it would even be greater, if the liberals left the planet. Vote for Trump, he is a master at dividing and conquering. He will probably destroy the liberals by branding them and insulting them as he has and as you have. He is right up your alley. "Now there is progress."

Of course, if there was any doubt in anyone's mind as to the noun which describes you the best, I am confident you have now erased all doubt with this most recent post. And this illustrates the fundamental difference between you and I. On one hand, you will argue that you are unbiased in your opinions toward The Indigenous and the African. But on the other hand, your commentary reveals an entirely different picture. But I do not try to hide behind a facade of friendliness, "brotherly love", or nationalism.

I am not afraid to say who I am, and how I feel about the evil of America: yesterday,today,and tomorrow. Nor am I afraid to express my disgust toward the apologist who embraces an evil past through national holidays, yet admonishes: "Forget about the genocide and the atrocities committed by my evil ancestors. Don't Worry Be Happy! Just eat the barbecue, drink the beer, and when you are all done we can hold hands and sing another rousing rendition of "Kumbaya", and "We Are The World". And there is no hypocrisy or contradictions, and this is verified through my consistent, and relentless commentary.

My desire is similar to that of Jesus, or any number of Anarchist's throughout the historical record. My desire is to see the entire human race freed from this yoke of oppression, and to see these monuments of evil that have perverted the natural order brought to ruin.Your general lack of understanding, and your pitiful attempt to offend, only further illustrate how easy it will be to overcome this evil system, once the people are educated and stand together in solidarity.

It is a shame your words cannot be accepted. But as a country that lives in a fantasy of history and cannot look at itself through a clear lens your words offend too many to count. Our history is a jaded one with greed at its core. The very discovery of it was a commercial enterprise that enslaved people when the opportunity arose. I agree with much of what you say but you run light years ahead with your accusations while many ponder and dismiss that which they find abhorring and or above their head.

Recover,I am 65 and was forced to retire from a job I loved because they wanted to reduce the salary budget. Before that I was harrassed for 4 years, given bad evaluations and stalked. Because I was use to harrassment, I knew to document everything and write rebuttals to evaluations that showed how ridiculous evaluators were. Example: I didn't pass out popsicle sticks for students to let me know what they didn't understand. I was told students couldn't sing until it was time for a program. The class was called "Choir."

You are white female over 50. I'm Black female, over 65, BBA, MBA, certified to teach Business and Music, and have known discrimination since I was a child.

"Blacks have more rights now than ever." That is soooo true. However, rights mean nothing if people are in a position to deny those rights.

I don't believe slavery should be forgotten. It is part of America history. But it should be portrayed appropriately. I think it is wrong and dangerous when any group''s worth is devalued. But throughout history this has happened and been repeated many times.

One of the reasons it is in the media today is because of the use of force by police officers. If a black person does not comply with their commands and they think it endangers their life or the life of others, they are allowed to use lethal force. The black people are upset because those officers are put on administrative leave and there is usually a long grand jury trial and then the officers in almost every case are not charged as criminals. Black lives do matter. And black people see this as a great injustice. The reason this happens is because law enforcement has the Fraternal Order of Police who have great legal defense lawyers who are pledged to defend fellow officers.

Am I being racist because I use the word Black? We are wired to see the differences in each other. How and why it is used is another story. We all belong to one race and that is the human race. If an alien were to come to this planet, they would see the human race in all its variations.

When a group is devalued, it is to gain power. Slavery was used to use human power to perform the tasks required of the plantation owners. Undoubtedly, there are still people who resent and hate black people for many reasons. The problem is, as in any culture, there are various economic levels. There are the poor, the middle class, and the upper class. To classify blacks into one class is doing them a huge disservice, especially the President of the United States and his family. For the First Lady to talk about slavery is appropriate because it is part of her heritage.

One of the behaviors of a conquering force is to rape pillage, and interbreed with those who they have conquered. This causes the gene pool to be spread to others. In time that gene pool will be spread to where we look more like each other. Again, am I being racists? I believe it is just human nature to spread the gene pool. it has happened throughout human history. Look at what the Conquistadors did to South American Indians.

If I were near you, I'd give you a big hug. You are the kind of person that can change the world for the better. You remind me of my Ida W. Moose. I wrote several articles about her on Hubpages. She passed away June 20, 2014. I'm crying as I write about her so I'll STOP!!!

Todays extremely divisive media , a rhetorically and much politically divided voting public , a President who has re-awakened racial divides by the re-awakening of negative and ancient racial discourse , the influx and growth of social media , the naiveté of a youthful and entitled last couple of generations , Gee . I think I know why there can be no progress .

Americans , of a mature age , long ago had all but healed this country through the sixties street revolutions and honest public and media dialog that apparently Pres. Obama felt that he had missed out on enough to re- awaken it by his support of the negative factors in todays society and minority cultures . As long as the media utilizes the likes of Al "race-baiter " Sharpton , Jesse Jackson , the BLM , The New Black Panthers , the Old Black Panthers , etc. , we will continue with these violent and unproductive discussions and actions that will only add fuel to an old and long since dying fire .

Even one of the newest terms . "Systematic Racism ". Is nothing but an all out attempt to guilt the rest of America into a failed political correctness of social , political , and institutional affirmative action . Guess what , we already instituted that decades ago . At what point does affirmative action then become the new imbalance of opportunity ?

Actually , I believe that America as a whole would love to have this discussion , they would welcome it , but . A real one . Not one created out of an academia of pseudo- socialist phony intellectualisms, not out of Ivy league hotbeds of socio-political divisiveness . The Bill Ayers ,the Reverend Wrights ?The Al Sharpton's ,black race .of the No . Someone , anyone with a sense of healing rather than of dividing !

I remember the Black Panthers. I've heard more about the New Black Panthers from people condemning them. I can't name one. Do they have a leader? I think people are making a much bigger deal of a wanna be important group than there really is. Just looked at the NBP website.

@NewBlackPanthr1

TWEETS2,567FOLLOWING1,558FOLLOWERS5,582LIKES17

How much power do they have with 17 likes? There's one person's name on the website. The guy is probably a Black Muslim. His name is Min. Hashim Nzinga. This is probably one or two people trying to bring back the Black Panther Party.

Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, etc. Who listens to them? I think it was Freddie Gray's parents who encouraged Al Sharpton to not show up for the funeral. People who want to make them Black "leaders" pay way more attention to them than Black people. Rev. Wright/Ayers? What are they doing?

An example of systemic racism is the War on Drugs which dealt with stiff sentences for the types of drugs Black people used and did not address the drugs that the white kids were using. Bill Clinton said he is sorry that he instituted the 3 Strikes because that caused Blacks to be incarcerated at a higher rate than Whites.

The tainted jury for George Zimmerman and the villification of Trayvon Martin includes examples. The jury foreman, wife of an attorney, was allowed to have dinner with her husband, twisted peoples arms, and there were no Blacks on the jury.

ahorseback: And there you are, true to form, blame the liberals for all your woes. I suspect you think if all the liberals would move to another planet. All of America would be a great place to live.

You have just divided the country by blaming the liberals for everything. You are more of an intellectual than you realize with your vocabulary and your flowery poetic language.

"pseudo- socialist phony intellectualisms and "Ivy league hotbeds of socio-political divisiveness " are pretty big words for a just ordinary person like yourself. Are you sure, you are not a pseudo- conservative intellectual? You sure write like one!

Peoplepower, If not the liberal policies, who should we blame? In the last 50 years, we had the war on poverty under Johnson, and yet the percent of the poor remained the same at about 10%. We've had welfare that broke up black families so they can get the benefits...child subsidies and housing and food...We had record food stamps being promoted by our own Agriculture Dept. and yet we are told people are going to bed hungry... We have broken schools in our inner cities that can't teach and the teachers union refuse to bring reform. We have an open border that allows immigrants to come hear and take jobs that American's won't do...we have 20 trillion deficits that are going even higher despite the record revenue to the IRS last few years...we have police being gunned down in the streets while politicians pander to BLM.

I believe preconception has the most leverage in why the conversation turns ugly quickly. I have broached the subject with a few when I felt they were open to the subject. One a few occasions I have been met with some openness and and candor. But in many cases I have found defensive and aggressive tones that stop everything.

The idea that a society can believe that taking people against their will and being sold to another for whatever that person wanted is beyond my understanding. Some say it was a sign of the times and the crudeness of the societal understanding then. I have read much on this and to me it was greed based just as much as it is today. Until we understand that no change will occur.

History is full of what you described and in the Bible as well. What is missing is the willingness on some to let go of the past. Healing begins with forgiveness. As a country, we need to move forward and not let the past chain us to the status quo. There will always be some racist in the world. We are an imperfect world. However, our country and laws and most citizens have evolved past the racism of the past. It is sad that some continue to hold on to these gripes and won't let go. In 2016 America, there is no reason why anyone can't get a good education, get healthcare, get food and be free. You cannot say the same about 90% of the rest of the world.

Jacklee, I went to your page to look at your Hubs. You mentioned not being able to discuss race with the Black people you associate with. I am now understanding why.

When you refer to the Black community, that is a concept I can't relate to. A community lives in the same locale. You listed some Black role models that are without a doubt accomplished men. However, you seem to have no regard for the average American Black person that takes works in a factory, as a teacher, or does odd jobs to supplement his income. My father, with an 8th grade education, worked 40 hours as a baggage handler. Then he worked 6 days a week cleaning houses, painting, hauling things or whatever he could for us. I have loads of cousins and uncles who were bricklayers.

Other than give advice, what have you specifically done to mentor Black people. When a person has nothing to give but advice, people tend to steer clear of you. There are many Black people in the inner city; however there are many Black people with good paying jobs who live in places other than the inner city. I don't live in the inner city but I help my family members and friends giving guidance, financial support when necessary, and praying and giving emotional support daily.

Is there any Black person you are helping to accomplish the things you are talking about?

Please don't take this in a mean way. You may have a sincere desire to help but it sounds like you are looking down on Black people telling them why they aren't making it and what they need to do.

I am glad you asked. I am not talking about your father because he seems to be doing just fine. When I talk about black community in general, I am focusing more on the inner city poor.Let me give you some background on what I've done personally since you asked. In 2000, IBM started a volunteer program called Aristotle 2000. I volunteered to be a big brother for a poor black youth who is having problems at home. His father is a truck driver who is on the road most of the time. He needed some guidance in preparing for high school. I spent time with him to provide just a role model and adult figure. When I was in college, I joined the fencing team at CCNY. You can read my autobiography and I have a whole chapter on my experience. The school is located in the center of Harlem NY. We have many black kids on our team. In fact, our team has all races and creed. We got along beautifully. Most of the families that attended CCNY were not well off. The school was essentially free public college at the time. However, we supported each other both on and off the fencing strip. I made some life long friends there.At IBM, one our our colleagues who is black and works as a PC technician. I mentioned him in one of my stories. His name was OJ and he refers to himself as the "good" OJ. He is a well adjusted young man, 10 years my junior and we got along well. He lived the good life straight and narrow. He came from a poor background and had sibliings that were troubled. He was different and got hired by IBM.Finally, after IBM, I worked for a non profit agency in Rockland county. It was a place that help people with disability to have a full and independent life. One of our co workers there is Jamacan black. She and I would have conversations over lunch sometimes and we cannot agree on our politics. She is one of the person I alluded to. I cannot get off first base talking about the prolbems with race. She told me that I could not understand their issues because my skin color is not black... What do you say after that?

I understand exactly why the Jamaican lady told you you couldn't understand.

1. You say you use "inner city" interchangeably with Black. The inner city includes other ethnicities. The Hispanic inner city population is growing.

2. Not all Black people are poor. 27.4% poor is nothing to brag about bu

Among racial and ethnic groups, African Americans had the highest poverty rate, 27.4 percent, followed by Hispanics at 26.6 percent and whites at 9.9 percent. 45.8 percent of young black children (under age 6) live in poverty, compared to 14.5 percent of white children.

3. The statement "He's different." is very troubling. This indicates that he is "not like the rest of Blacks." The perception of Black is as is seen on television or passeddown through history. Examples: Black people are stupid. Black people have small brains and are not as intelligent as white people

I'll be glad to. By different, I mean he did not fit the stereotype of young blacks. He did not do drugs or smoke. He dressed neat and always pressed his own shirts. He is respectful and well spoken. He wants to learn and improve his standing. He is always helpful and willing to go the extra mile. I'm sure some of these qualities that got him hired in the first place. From our discussions, apparently, he is not the typical child in his family. Some of his siblings and cousins got into trouble with the law. He didn't go into details but it is apparent to me that personal behavior plays a role. Again, I want to emphasize, this is one of a few incidences I had. It is not to say "all" blacks are this and that...It is a pattern that is all too common.Why black teens don't get the jobs that get them started in a career? Why they don't stay in school and finish HS and get a degree? why they choose to use drugs or worst deal drugs... Why they dress unconventionally... why they join gangs? why they have babies out of wedlock in high numbers?Why they don't reject violence? Why they don't respect the law or police? why they choose confrontation ? So many questions...I get that blacks were dealt a bad hand from the start. However, that should not stop someone to get ahead by behaving what society expects. Getting a good education, help others, work hard, stay close to family, attend church services...all behaviors that will lead to a better outcome.

I'll be glad to. By different, I mean he did not fit the stereotype of young blacks. He did not do drugs or smoke. He dressed neat and always pressed his own shirts. He is respectful and well spoken. He wants to learn and improve his standing. He is always helpful and willing to go the extra mile. I'm sure some of these qualities that got him hired in the first place. From our discussions, apparently, he is not the typical child in his family. Some of his siblings and cousins got into trouble with the law. He didn't go into details but it is apparent to me that personal behavior plays a role. Again, I want to emphasize, this is one of a few incidences I had. It is not to say "all" blacks are this and that...It is a pattern that is all too common.Why black teens don't get the jobs that get them started in a career? Why they don't stay in school and finish HS and get a degree? why they choose to use drugs or worst deal drugs... Why they dress unconventionally... why they join gangs? why they have babies out of wedlock in high numbers?Why they don't reject violence? Why they don't respect the law or police? why they choose confrontation ? So many questions...I get that blacks were dealt a bad hand from the start. However, that should not stop someone to get ahead by behaving what society expects. Getting a good education, help others, work hard, stay close to family, attend church services...all behaviors that will lead to a better outcome.

This is a really good question. I'm not so sure that slavery really needs to be discussed 'as a rule', anymore. For instance, I don't think it was necessary for Mrs. Obama to make the comment. It's not like slavery is supposed to be an issue for us, anymore. But, in this day and age, with the 'Black Lives Matter' movement clashing with the 'the BLM is a conspiracy' flipside - it was bound to cause a ruckus among conservatives who are uncomfortable being reminded about such ugly history.

However, I also think in this case, Mrs Obama wasn't necessarily trying to irritate anyone - she was simply being the color that she is, commenting on a past historical situation in order to highlight it - because it IS an important thing to keep in mind and commemorate. I mean, WHO ELSE aside from her husband is going to be able to say such a thing for a while? Who else is going to think that it is something to treasure and point out how far we have come as a country in that racist regard?

It was just a comment as innocent as any term of endearment; and the fact that any conservative came unglued just highlights how far we have yet to go. Stay awake.

*shrug* It is as foolish to forget or bury the undesirable parts of our history as it is to demand that a third party pay reparations to yet a fourth party when neither one had anything to do with what happened centuries ago.

It makes about as much sense as to ask today's blacks to pay the descendants of poor, deep south sharecroppers that didn't have slaves because they didn't volunteer to BE slaves for him.

Bearing in mind that a very small percentage of the population owned slaves, it seems improbable that people didn't like it ending.

If it's modern people you mean, it might be that they view it as a request for something in return for being a slave (though I have a hard time thinking any more than a handful are angry it ended). Or perhaps they view it as a slap in the face, continually renewed, at what happened and they perceive it as being blamed for it. Which, in all too many cases, they are. Anyone with a caucasian background is, whether they kept slaves, their remote ancestors did or their entire ancestry had nothing whatsoever to do with anything remotely connected to slavery.

Slaves and land were the main forms of wealth in the US before 1860. The most profitable activity on Wall Street was the slave trade. You have a talent for building strawmen, and creating amazing fiction. Your suggestion that a white, dirt poor potato farmer in Idaho, or an inbred hillbilly in Appalachia would be responsible for reparations is laughable, but very convincing to the uneducated. Here I have provided a "short list" of American companies that created fortunes through the slave trade. These are first parties, and the descendants of those slaves are also the first parties. And there can be no argument.

Believe it or not, African slaves were also human beings. It is not uncommon for parents, grand parents, and great grand parents, to provide for the future of their children,and successive generations. Everyone knows this to be true. Consequently, it is not unreasonable to expect that African slaves would have desired that their descendants would someday benefit from their forced, and inhumane servitude. A horror that lasted nearly 400 years! Saying "We're Sorry!" or handing out welfare checks simply isn't enough. Reparations must not only be delivered as a single payment of cash, but also in the form of guaranteed job opportunities and economic parity. The companies I have listed here are the ones who are obligated more than anyone else to pay reparations, as they, and all of those along the gravy train, are the ones who have benefited most from a crime against humanity. They have the means to pay, and it would be in their best interest to start paying A.S.A.P.. The recent mantra of the righteous: "No Justice No Peace" is not exclusively tied to police brutality.

Short List of American Companies Who Must Pay Reparations

AIG – bought American General Financial which owns US Life Insurance Company. US Life used to insure the lives of slaves.

Aetna – insured the lives of slaves in the 1850s.

Bank of America – grew in part out of the Bank of Metropolis, which accepted slaves as collateral.

Brown University – named for the Brown brothers who gave money to the university. Two were slave traders, another ran a factory that used slave-grown cotton. University Hall was built in part by slave labour.

CSX – rented slaves to build rail lines.

Fleet Boston – grew out of Providence Bank, founded by one of the Brown brothers (see Brown University above), a slave trader who owned slave ships. The bank made money from the slave trade. Providence, Rhode Island was the home port for many slave ships.

Harvard Law School – endowed with money from Isaac Royall, an Antiguan slave owner and sugar grower.

New York Life – insured slaves. Of its first 1,000 insurance polices, 339 were policies on slaves.

Norfolk Southern – the Mobile & Girard, now part of Norfolk Southern, rented slaves to work on the railroad. Central of Georgia, also now part of the company, owned slaves.

Princeton – raised money and recruited students from rich, slave-owning families in the South and the Caribbean. Princeton was not alone in hitting up slave owners and traders for money and students. So did:

Harvard,Yale,Penn,Columbia,Rutgers,Brown,Dartmouth and theUniversity of Delaware.By the middle 1700s, most Princeton students were the sons of slave owners. Many of Columbia’s students were sons of slave traders.

Tiffany’s – founded with profits from a cotton mill in Connecticut that processed slave-grown cotton.

USA Today – its parent company, Gannett, had links to slavery.

Wells Fargo – Georgia Railroad & Banking Company and the Bank of Charleston owned or accepted slaves as collateral. They later became part of Wells Fargo by way of Wachovia. (In the 2000s Wells Fargo targeted blacks for predatory lending.)

I think this is a brave question. It is imperative that our history never be forgotten in the hope that it will not be repeated. I admire Mrs. Obama for her ability to cut to the chase and state what was and what is. The rights and wrongs of the past can only be undone when we are not afraid to look at them and to speak about them, not in hatred or judgement, building together a future that promises that this horrific history will and should never be repeated. Sadly there are hundreds of thousands on enslaved children feeding the west right now because we enable the slavery of children too poor and uneducated to stand up for their rights from parents whose spirits have been destroyed by greed and selfishness.

I can only speak on my lens and what everyone must understand is that everyone has their own lens to look through. No one has had the same experiences, so these issues means different things to different people. Slavery has not happened in this country in a couple hundred years and when it was going on, there was only a small fraction of the population that had slaves. I think it should be talked about in a historical sense, not as though it is a current issue. We do not have slavery issues, we have discrimination issues. So when slavery is brought up in such a way, most people will not see how that pertains to now. Every country is founded on fighting, stealing, enslaving for thousands of years. No one was spared if you go back far enough. Indigenous populations have always felt the brunt of those times. American Indians only make up about 2% of the population now because like many indigenous populations, they were practically wiped out. Racism cannot be ended with laws and regulations. It is with each situation, each interaction that our lens is shaped. So let us discuss the now. What needs to happen now is more understanding and kindness towards all, to change another person's lens just a little bit more. Laws do not change hearts, people do.The extremes on both sides make it difficult for most to have a productive dialogue, especially online. I have had great conversations in person with those I am close with of all races, but it seems that to discuss things now on an online platform is rather tricky. Everyone is afraid of being taken the wrong way. White guilt and white privilege are hard for many people to feel and understand. I think the bottom half that are struggling in today's economy does not feel very privileged and this has created a sense of resentment in a way for some who are struggling just to make it. You have millions of whites in poverty that will not relate to the idea that they are privileged in any way. You have millions in the middle class that are not going to relate that all of the hard work they have done to scrape up the economic ladder was due to their skin color and not their own hard work. Many people cannot relate to a guilt for something that they had nothing to do with hundreds of years ago. Thus two sides divided and our country is becoming more divided. It isn't because people don't care, but the subject is a minefield and no one wants to explode.

Girl keep talking! That's the point I've been trying to make. It was real and meant something different based on your position at that time. We need to acknowledge history but use it in a positive way to do better. It should not divide us. It should unite us.

The slave owners are DEAD. The slaves are DEAD. There is nothing white people can do to change what happened and they didn't inherit the position of slave owners. Black people are no longer slaves or property.

Issues now are pride and unforgiving hearts. My sister is angry at my deceased parents whom I love dearly. I see them differently than she did. Her anger is destroying her. I love her and am willing to help in any way I can but I will not feel guilty for what I did not do nor had control over.

Thank you for your thoughts. We need more comments like this. They are conciliatory. As the discussion goes on, I'm seeing very good comments. I hope we continue.

At the end, if one person is no longer bitter but will to communicate with compassion, we've done a good job.

The Islamic State West Africa, Boko Haram, kidnaps females in Nigeria and sells them as salves. I hope that you will keep them in your prayers and thoughts. It is with a heavy heart that I keep the missing women and girls in my prayers. Arabs have black slaves.

I pray for violated people and the loved ones of those horribly killed all over the world. I pray for the people who live a life of hatred that allows them to rape and kill innocent children. I pray that they will realize that love builds and hate destroys. It seems they love to destroy. It's unfathomable.

I find this article is "all in " about the problems in America ! Interestingly , I find myself a part of the upbringing described in that article . The group of people somehow surviving the abject poverty described in the article being of my own personal experience . Ten kids , working class parents [both of them ] in the fifties and sixties seventies .

And THAT exactly is why I always find myself disgusted with the racism rhetoric , the racial divide , the whine of people of any ethnic division in America , Poverty is poverty , hunger is hunger , being cold in the winter winds feels exactly the same ,No matter ones skin color , no matter ones ethnic origins ! So when 'false flags ' of the cries and screams of people calling out especially racism , systematic bias , all of the "slavery " rhetoric , all of the "blame the other race ," comes to the forefront ? My mind goes back to those days of hunger , poverty , economic desperation .

Why can't people discuss race in a productive manner ? Because for many it is the race of poverty against richness . Not the color of ones skin , especially when claiming a certain victimhood simply because of color - as if because one is "white " they are somehow better off simply because of that ? Please .

Time for everyone to get mature , to get real ,no matter what skin tone !

Clearly, in my opinion, there is racism today. Dylan Roof's action in Charleston was to start a race war. The KKK supports Donald Trump. The Black guy in Dallas that killed all of those police officers was inolved in some hate groups and/or suffered from PTSD. I related a couple of my recent situations a couple of posts back.

There are many other incidents that show up on social media often. Can you deny that they are racists and/or racist actions? Or are you saying there should not be any racism. We should be working together to have a better society?

Thank you for reading the article. I tend to like to read short articles.

I am more human than human. If I got any more "real" I wouldn't be able to keep my feet on the ground, as I would no longer be bound by the laws of gravity. Read, Learn, Comprehend, and behold the beauty of the truth!

There is no need in looking for a cure for heart disease. The American Heart Association is simply wasting time and money. Why? Because people are dying of cancer. Whey should we care about heart disease when people are dying of cancer? And there is no need in seeking a cure for cancer because people are dying of diabetes. Why should we waste our time trying to cure heart disease and cancer when people are dying of diabetes? And seeking a cure for diabetes is a waste of time because people are suffering from alzheimers disease. And seeking a cure for alzheimers is a waste of time, not only because of all of the aboce, but also because over 40,000 people die in the United States each year as the result of MVC's. And there is no need in preventing MVC's because people are going to die anyway. So there is really no point in worrying about the prevention of disease, or fatal accidents. The only two things we need to worry about are Paying Taxes, and Funeral Arrangements.

•Paying taxes: Paying taxes is of the utmost importance. Without taxes, the racist government of the United States couldn't fund the proxy war in Syria, or arm terrorist groups like ISIS. Without perpetual war, the rich could not get richer. And in order to have perpetual war, it is necessary to create terrorist organizations to justify the war.

• Funeral Arrangements: It is important to take care of our funeral arrangements well in advance. Otherwise, our racist relatives, and our racist loved ones, will have to fight over who has to pay funeral expenses with their share of the inheritance.

It's fine to discuss our various opinions. However, I don't see a lot of action as a result. It is frustrating for me that so little progress is being made. Where are the movers and shakers of our generation? where is Dr. King or Ronald Reagan when we need them? We have a broken political system controlled by the elites (money class). They are perfectly happy for the two party to biker and attack each other while nothing gets resolved. Meanwhile, they are making money on the backs of the people and the government (via mis-spent tax dollars). The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.Why do people keep voting the same people into office? Food for thought. Thanks Diana for posing the question. I am going to work on my book...

Change won't come from the government and it shouldn't! Change starts in our hearts. Who should take action? US!!! If not us, then who?

When I quit my first job, I did so because I wanted to help kids. I became frustrating because, as a teacher, I was caught up in the system. However, I did have little groups that I helped each year. In 2013, i received a phone call at work. A student I taught in 1998 looked on the Internet to find me. He invited me to his studio in LA.

Back in 1998 this kid was failing all of his classes. His mom made him work at night to help support the family. He would come to school late and the school threatened to kick him out. I would call him every morning at 6 am to make sure he got up and got to school. When he came to my class, I would let him sleep in the back of the room. He said he couldn't understand anything in any of the classes. Today he is a supervisor on his job and a good father.

Last year a former student who was in the same class with this male student friended me on FB. She works for UPS and is a supervisor on her job. She is beautiful and does a lot of modeling.

I could go on and on about students I friended along the way and they thank me for the impact I had on their lives. Half of my FB friends are former students.

The BIble says, "The poor you will always have with you." We can't wave a magic want and then have no more poor people. We can help those that are in our paths through work or as a volunteer. Verbally giving advice will have zero impact. When you give of yourself, people see that you care. When they know that you care, they will listen.

In my economics class, years ago, we study about Thomas Malthus. He was concerned that "the food supply was increasing arithmatically but the population was increasing geometrically."If we help people, and then each of those people helps other people, we can have the same impact.If starts with us.

Diana, I get it, you did your part and the people around you are better of. That is great. i applaud you. You are correct, government can't do this. That is what conservatives have been saying for years and no one listened. I am willing to bet you vote Democratic every election. Right? Why are you supporting a party that is for big government? More entitlements? More regulations? Common core? i can go on...You seems to understand human nature but yet you don't extend that knowledge to apply to government. How do we get more teachers like you into our public schools? Who is preventing this?

That is turning the question on me. I don't know for sure but I can venture a guess. I think the black community have been deceived by the Democratic party into believing they are the party of good and they are there to help all people... In fact, they have done little for the poor and the black and other minorities. Their progressive policies in the past have brought our country to the current state. Where real unemployment is near 10%, higher in the minorities precinct, food stamps use is near all time high, 50 percent of Americans living from paycheck to paycheck, wages have been stagnant for years... while Wall street and investor class have done very well. Guess who donates to both parties...and who controls policies in Washington? Meanwhile, Conservatives have been demonized for wanting to do the "right" thing. Reduce taxes to stimulate growth and cut spending to help lower our debt and deficits. Giving parents school choices to help with our educations system... and many other alternative policies that do not see the light of day.Anyway, food for thought.I will suggest one book to read, Hillary's America by Dinesh D'Souza. You will learn some history...

Standard conservative dogma, Jack. I am well educated and am quite aware of whom it is I vote for and why. Don't you find that a bit arrogant? How do you explain that support for the Democrats among Blacks transcends all income and educational levels. Yet, who is it that are so sure that we are being collectively 'duped'?

This is part of the stereotype Jackclee! I'm an Independent. I did not vote for President Obama either time. I don't hate him but came unglued when he went to the bathroom issue back in April. I have very high regard for Michelle Obama's education, accomplishments and the way she dresses. I'm trying to think of the last time I voted for a Democrat for president.

Until I came to California at the age of 22, I only knew one person getting food stamps. It was a schoolmate who was 18 and taking care of her 3 brothers and 1 sister because their mother died. My dad worked 12 to18 hours a day. We never got welfare and never had a food stamp. My father wanted nothing to do witih applying for something free which he thought they might take back later. He worked for everything we had.

I have had people call me a racist against Black people because of some of my views. I don't have loyalty to any party. I believe too many people are having babies without being married and see how it impacts the children trying to attend school. AND there are racists. One does not negate the other. There is work to be done by everybody. It doesn't matter that we didn't not create the problem. What is important is that we all participate in a solution.

I know white people today were not involved in slavery; however, the existence of slavery is shown in history of my ancestors. I'm not an angry Black woman. I don't think Michelle Obama is an angry Black woman. A real discussion of race includes the resentment of Black people who overcome the obstacles that are there every day. It is a human emotion for people to be jealous of each other. When Black people overcome, it really upsets those who like to thing we are less than they are. That is really what upset people about Michelle Obama. They distort pictures of her to try to make her look like an animal and distort her what she says. My dad used to always say, "Get yourself a good eduation. Nobody can take that from you." My father was a wise man with an 8th grade education who always encouraged us to go farther than he did. All Blacks are not poor. All Blacks are not on welfare (numerically, more white people are on welfare). All Blacks don't like in the inner city. All Blacks are not Democrats. I'll stop here. I don't want to write so much that no one reads.

Sorry to annoy you. Do you think this is self promotion? I have better things to do. I am trying to expand the discussion. If you have better ideas, bring it on... That is what freedom of Speech is all about.

Jackclee, why don't you start with a forum, rather than a hub. When you have enough input, then write a hub. You have pretty much stated your views several times. You need to write in a way that will encourage people to respond.

I have engaged in forum discussions as you are aware. The problem I see with forum discussions is that there is no structure or focus. It is just random ideas back an forth. What I am aiming for is a real discussion on ideas and policies that can change society in a positive way. I have tried this format in other discussions with another hubber on climate change. I think it will be a good way to educate and disseminate information. Information that are not available in the general press.

Thanks for the suggestion.I will do that.What is your impression of conservatives?What is your opinion of Dr. Carson, and Clearance Thomas and Thomas Sowell?Just curious.Do you know why they don't resonate with the Black community?

I'm sure most kids don't know who they are. Children, as I did as a child, are not interested in the news. I use to show news clips of things that were happening. The kids never heard of them. You are speaking as an older, intellectual person. When you were a child, who were your role models.

Unless things have changed, I don't thing there is anything in textbooks about them.

I strong dislike reference to the "Black" community. We don't all live together. I suppose the term is used because of the color of our skin. We are all different as I continue to say. The life experiences are different. There are probably a couple of kids somewhere who are interested in them. My nephew, while attending Georgetown, met Clarence Thomas.

No I am not part of the Asian community because I don't live in them. I grew up in NYC and now live in the suburbs. My kids went to Chinese school on Saturdays to learn some basic Chinese and Culture. I consider myself, a Christian American. I am not asking about children per se. I am curious about what you think? You say you don't like the term black community, then what term would you want me to use? I am interested in your opinion of some black leaders. Perhaps you can think about that and what some of your peers also think? You want the rest of America to discuss race issues but you are not willing to discuss some political views of your own race. To me, they are tied intricately. If I was a teacher in the inner cities school, I would want my kids exposed to all political views. I would want them to read the biographies of MLK, and Thomas and Carson. They can relate to those individuals more than others that I also recommend. I would also stress individual responsibility and doing the "right" thing. I would bring God into the discussion and not tied to a particular religion but just the fact that our country was founded with divine providence. Keep God out of the public school and the public square was one of the mistakes we made as a country, and we are paying the price. You say you are a Christian, and yet you support a party that is anti religion, anti pro life and anti law and order when it comes to border control...how do you square that?

? Independent is anti-religion. I accepted Christ as my personal Savior November 5, 1978. I am part of the Christian community at my church.

I have not given birth to any children. My children are the kids in my family that I mentor and spend time with. I've helped pay for college and purchased a home to provide stability for a disabled niece and nephew. I really don't see a need to talk about what I have done for Black people. The Lord knows.

This forum evolved from my curiosity of why white people were upset with Michelle Obama for what she said.

It's interesting that you are not part of the Asian Community but I am part of the Black Community. Hmmmmm? How did you come up with that?

What I can't understand is, you have all of this advice for Black people but you are not around any? If the Lord has given you that burden, you might need to move to an inner city area. Matthew 28:19-20.

Diana, I guess I miss understood what your forum was about. I did not meant to be a discussion about your personal life or my. I thought we were discussing the general question of race relations in America. It is your forum. You are free to take it where you wish. Good luck.

Jackclee, it seems you want to direct where it goes. People are free to talk about conservative/liberal as it relates to race. I am neither. Wilderness gave some wonderful examples that show racists views. From the beginning it appeared that you know what Black people should do and expect them to automatically do it. I addressed what I thought what were issues.

It sounds like you might equate conservative with Christianity values and that couldn't be farther from the truth. Examples: Dennis Hastert, Newt Gingrich, Bob Packard, Mark Foley, etc.

I am a Christian independent. My inspiration and guidance comes from the Bible. You put all of your trust in conservatives and you will be disappointed. Same about liberals.

My role model is Jesus Christ.

I hope you are able to find someone who is willing to have the discussion you want to have.

There are times when speaking of statistical averages coupled with race is valid or even important (blacks get sickle cell anemia, whites sunburn). But it deteriorates rapidly when far more important factors are ignored and only skin color is taken into account (blacks love fried chicken and watermelon, whites are racist and hate blacks) such as geographic background, rural vs city, education, etc.

And it falls completely apart, becoming racist, when specific individuals are assigned attributes based solely on skin color as when you expect Diane to discuss political views of "her" community (meaning her race). You are clear that your race is not a factor in what you consider your "community" - how and why then can you think that Diane's is?

This is a major cause of racism in the US - that individual people are lumped into a "community" based solely on race. Until we learn that local interactions and not race are what make a community, that people differ widely in their thoughts and attitudes regardless of race, that race is a minor factor in determining attitudes and behavior, we will continue to have racial tensions in this country.

Of course not, COLORADO had a "make my day" law, where the homeowner could resort to lethal force if confronting a prowler on his or her property. You can't use itto stop someone from stealing your pickup truck, or in any case where your life or someone else's in your immediate vicinity is not threatened.

Zimmerman was irresponsible and contributed to the tragedy that was Trayvon Martin. Then there was the case in Texas when a grandfatherly type killed two prowlers, who were running off with his neighbor's television sets. Some sort of Texas Good Neighbor Law, or some such thing. The man called the police saying that there was a burglary in progress. He told them that he was armed with a shotgun and was going to intercede to stop it. I think that it may have been about 7-10 years ago. Anyway, the cops told him to stand down and await for the arrival of a police officer on the scene. But this man seemed anxious to confront the two hispanic men and see just see how effective his new shot gun was against living tissue and bone. He disregarded instructions from the police and confronted the men, both unarmed, shooting them both fatally in the back as they tried to flee. From what I could surmise, he was never in danger but chose to put himself into harms way.

Of course, Texas, being Texas, the man was acquitted as a "Mr Whipple" type, normally not capable of harming a fly. Living in Colorado at the time, I knew that my state had a more evolved and sophisticated viewpoint about these matters. I was confident that this sort of event and outcome could not happen where I lived.

There should be be serious repercussions for anyone involved in using firearms for anything other than defense of human life, and not in cases of crimes against property.

Since this is compared to the Trayvon Martin case, I'm wondering if people are thinking differently now.

Last weekend, Zimmerman reported to the police that he was discussing Trayvon Martin and someone punched him. No one was arrested. I read from a couple of places that he had been bragging. It was a bar/restaurant so I guess there were witnesses.

Diane ,I hope one thing you have learned by now in these forums is that the some opinions are that "The stereotypes of black people " first , are pretty much create BY black people . One more city grows hostile . --part of Milwaukee this morning is in ashes . It seems that only one race in America has grown " out of control ", Why ? Who wins when a city is on fire ? Why does only one race in America decide that fracturing it's own culture into millions of pieces is the best solution . Families torn apart by crime , drugs , alcoholism , murder , when rioting becomes a family activity - you lose focus on positive change . When broken families are the normal household , there is never a positive outcome in the end ?

Why can't people discuss race in a positive manner ?....So you can ask a hard question now , can you accept a hard answer ?

Because quite frankly , it appears that the destruction of your race is being perpetrated from the inside out , not from the outside in as many , many have implied .

Hi ahorse, I just finished reading about this. It's awful. This is the kind of incident that divides African Americans and those of us who speak against crime and other activities in a city like this are called "Oreos."

The crime that is going on is typical of a community like this. My point is "not all Black people live in communities like this." Last week I brought up the book J D Vance wrote, "Hillbilly Elegy," which is a counterpart to what is going on in impoverished inner city areas. J D Vance is speaking from his experience growing and the resentment of middle class white people who feel that is no one that speaks for them and no laws that protect them.

As I continually repeat, I'm sure you work with black people that don't riot. You possibly live with Black people that don't behave like this. If you notice pundits, political surrogates, and other Black people who hate this type of behavior. When the crime is committed by a Black person(s), the Black race should not be held responsible. Similarly, when a crime is committed by a white person, Dylan Roof, the white race should not be indicted.

If you read the article, a few people on the scene texted people and gather 200 - 800 people. I'm sure the elderly people and children that live in the area did not participate. In addition, there are people that just need a place to live and can't afford to live anywhere else.

I'm angry about it and hope they catch every single person involved and pursue just. I am not out there rioting and I never have. Most Black people with jobs are not out there.

I disagree with one thing , socio economics isn't the real , the best reason for this violence , for politically divisive rhetoric , for thuggery , for a slanted and divisive - even caustic media , for the apathy and detachment of our leadership , I have known poor people my entire life and they are many of them far, far better people than those who come from the campus' social reformation activists , from the media , from the politically motivated socialism activism .

Poverty alone is NOT an excuse . when in these situational and agenda-ed civil disturbances and low quality job markets , you move , you walk , you run , you take the subway and leave that environment for the betterment of your family .

There you go! Remember also, there are kids that make it out of that environment.

I have spent quite a bit of time, during the day, in the inner city teaching school. I have had students that were in gangs or had relatives in games. I'd like to think I've had some influence on them so that they are making better choices down the line. Teachers, pastors, mentors, the strong inner will, causes young people to make the right choices. If Jack, wants to make a difference, he can. It is not going to be a miraculous, overnight occurence/investment. You have to pour yourselves into these kids. Giving a lecture, turning and leaving is not the answer.

I haven't read it yet. Since I mentioned here, I see the guy doing interviews all over the place. I plan to buy it. It would be nice to have a book club to read and discuss books like this. I guess that wouldn't go over well either.

You do more than fine Diane , In fact ,it IS leadership like yours that will eventually cross a threshold of enlightenment for us all , your heart is good ! Know that . I hold our media completely responsible for almost all public and political divide right now , I believe many people do . It is the condescending and sensationalizing attitude of a lousy and ill mannered immaturity IN the media too !

We all , I know I do , forget that there are extremely reasonable people herein these forums , I tend to be a bit jaded especially BECAUSE of the media for one , the lousy leadership in politics for two , and three because I grew up in white poverty , call me white trash if you will , I am proud however of the reasoned and conscientious upraising my mother provided even in that poverty , she taught us that from a very young age to accept those around us and especially those that we meet in life who are "different " than us for the real human beings that they are . It truly offends me to see the false warring going on .

I am extremely offended by our and my being called racist by some here who dwell in the forums for immature reasons only , at least you have never done that . There are those who don't belong here with a voice or a key -board on all sides of these issues . We could , I believe , easily cure the racial issues in America .

--Personal behavior accountability needs to be re-prioritized in our schools , our churches , our youth groups . --All of America right now should demand our media be scrutinized for false political agenda and legally punished and lose their licensing for practicing in media if need be .-Political leadership in inner cities needs drastic accountability standards and oversight .--Social programs originally designed for the real poor , should be taken from the abusers , and there are many "on the system " too long ..--Nationally , there needs to be a jobs saving program for keeping lower tech jobs IN America, in the inner cities , in the right neighborhoods .--Our supreme courts need to focus on a "No pleaing down " of violent crime cases once again . The revolving door of the justice system needs to have the batteries removed .-- Washington , congress and senate , needs a major changing of the guards by the people voting them out and adopting term limits !

Please do not call yourself a "white" pejorative!!! I never practiced saying that about other people. After I left Arkansas, not before, I realized that "j*p and "inj*n" were negatives. I hope I never have to say for using them. I have been upset and said "s**t" but less as time goes on.

We are all complicated, each individually and wonderfully made. Many don't understand that. I feel Hollywood has had a negative impact on the average person. They have kids out of wedlock, take drugs, go to jail and it usually no big deal. Kids should realize that they don't have the money that the Kardashians or Lindsay Lohan or others.

I took a course in community revitalization and hope to go back to make a difference in my neighborhood. I'm experiencing challenges there with what other people are proposing.

Inner city youth must be taught and shown that having kids at a young age limits their possibilities. BTW, Simone Biles has one heck of a story. Her mother was a drug addict and her grandfather adopted her. She started flipping off the mailbox when she was 6. The gymnastics coach at school saw her imitating her students. the coach thought she was better than the students and the rest is hisotry. She is believed to be the best athlete in the world. Kids need hopes and dreams. They need to be based on their own strengths and then they need others to encourage them.

I'm really ticked on the Milwaukee thing now. Some of those people were looking for a reason to do something crazy. The alderman was speaking about it. I hope they have cameras and will hold people accountable.

“You’re living in poverty,” Trump said. “Your schools are no good. You have no jobs - 58 percent of your youth is unemployed. What the hell do you have to lose?”

1. "You're living in poverty." According to statistics, 26/27% of Black people are living in party. (You indicates all/inclusive)

2. Your schools are no good. Stop blaming teachers. There should be community involvement/mandatory participation by parents.

3. You have no jobs! Statistics state that 8/9% of Blacks are unemployed - 1/7 of the 58% figure Trump quoted. Stastisticians have told him that you don't include kids in high school and college. The high number supports his narrative.

4. What the hell do you have to lose? His past record shows nothing that he has done to improve Black employment as an employer and he has discriminated as his father did. A bird in the hand may be worth two in a bush.

Diane: He is pathetic. He thinks by insulting black people that he is going to get their votes. And this is after he changed his campaign people. They have no empathy and if I didn't know better, it looks like they are on a self-destruct course.

The demographic of North Carolina has changed, because there are many High-Tech areas where educated people have moved into of all different colors and races. Most of these people don't buy his B.S.and are turning the state from red to blue.

Peoplepower, it is most interesting to watch the transition of an old time lockstep GOP state like North Carolina evolve from a red herring into a blue swan. It joins the ranks of progressism due to diversity, education. That is why my native Colorado is no longer nothing like the crimson red states that surround it, with the noted exception of New Mexico, which has a high proportionate Hispanic population, who of course, lean Democratic.

North Carolina's burgeoning hi-tech industries require a level of education to operate, not commonly found amongst rightwingers. We keep this up, we are going to get Georgia and Arizona to come away from the 'Dark Side'. The pressure is on, will the Lone Star state be a possibility in coming years?

1. "You're living in poverty." According to statistics, 26/27% of Black people are living in party. (You indicates all/inclusive)

While it is true that only 27% of blacks live in poverty, it is still about twice the rate of the country as a whole. There is thus a large grain of truth here. Trump exaggerates, but you ignore a very pertinent fact.

2. Your schools are no good. Stop blaming teachers. There should be community involvement/mandatory participation by parents.

But he didn't blame teachers. And there are far too many schools that are both predominately black AND are pathetic. You even say so by by giving some reason it is so. This, too, then has too much truth to ignore, and changing the topic to teachers doesn't change that.

3. You have no jobs! Statistics state that 8/9% of Blacks are unemployed - 1/7 of the 58% figure Trump quoted. Stastisticians have told him that you don't include kids in high school and college. The high number supports his narrative.

Trumps statement was "You have no jobs - 58 percent of your youth is unemployed.". It isn't true (the proper figure is around 20%) but it is still around double the unemployment rate for youth nationwide - you've once more ignored pertinent information to try and make the statement totally false. And yes, there are statistics for youth, ages 16-24.http://www.bls.gov/news.release/youth.nr0.htm

4. What the hell do you have to lose? His past record shows nothing that he has done to improve Black employment as an employer and he has discriminated as his father did. A bird in the hand may be worth two in a bush.

If any of his business has hired even a single black person then it has done something to improve black employment. That you might wish him to hire blacks disproportionate to the local demographics does not mean that he is doing nothing and even if you could prove illegal discrimination it still wouldn't mean he does nothing. Another exaggeration, then, because he doesn't do what you would like him to do.

You don't like Trump, you find him to be racist. I get that. But to take his statements and either complain about something else or pretend that there is no truth in them doesn't solve anything. There is some truth (although he exaggerates as badly as you did) and they are points that should be discussed and solutions found for, not simply shoved aside because you don't like the man. It makes discussing race very difficult when you do that.

Even today in our "enlightened" society, many women fear to come forward and report rape and sexual abuse. This is because they don't want to suffer the added humility of having their private life unfairly scrutinized in public, or to be portrayed as someone who was "asking for it". And who would believe the victim who created her own misery? Considering this unfortunate fact of life that predates racism, it serves no good purpose to highlight the spurious notion that in order to minimize the possibility of sexual abuse a woman should dress modestly, or never walk alone at night. First of all, it is nothing less than an outrage to suggest that in a civilized society a potential victim must modify their behavior in order to accommodate the potential perpetrator. Furthermore, it is well known that a majority of sexual abuse is perpetrated by a known assailant, such as a boyfriend, spouse, relative, or casual acquaintance.

Suggesting band-aid solutions is not only demeaning to women, but also serves to perpetuate the problem of sexual violence. And we can see the same evil at work when considering racism in America. Highlighting the obvious as a "smoking gun" serves no other purpose than to further a racist narrative. And that narrative would have us believe that blacks are disproportionately incarcerated, unemployed, and living below the poverty line because of intellectual inferiority, and a general lack of morality and motivation. In the racist mind, these alleged inherent traits are what leads to fatherless families, drug addiction, gang violence, and poverty.

Many white Americans are comfortable with this wonderful fiction because it helps to support their idealistic and racist interpretation of the American Dream. But the truth is not so pleasant to look at.

Read • Comprehend • Learn:

There are three distinct groups here in the United States that have created a perpetual wheel of poverty and crime for blacks living in the inner city. The first group are the white racists who believe it is the destiny of the white race to rule the world. The second, and much larger group, are the white Americans who have, since before the Civil War, suffered from an apathetic "go along to get along" attitude. This is the "We Are The World", "Don't Worry Be Happy"crowd. Last but not least, the third group are the black people who are suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. This group consists of those whose minds have been successfully colonized, and who are otherwise known as "Uncle Toms".

The only thing I find remarkable about Donald Trump's brand of racism is that, unlike the "real" politicians, he has expressed more of his true feelings about minorities in public. And so, I will give him an "A" for honesty, but no dinner invitation, and that courtesy extends to you as well.

You forgot the final, largest, group of all - those of all races, whether black, white, hispanic, indian or any other, that wish an end to racism. You would do well to join whatever group appeals to your sense of history and put your efforts into ending it rather than growing it by claiming that any race (in your case, caucasian) is composed of only racists.

The entire world, not only the US, suffers from such racist views and the eagerness to demonize an entire race because of a few is the single largest remaining stumbling block standing before real acceptance of all peoples. Apply yourself and destroy any racism within yourself - you can become a part of the answer rather than a weapon of racism.

I have forgotten no group because there is no other groups responsible for the problems of the inner city. Here you come yet again with your strawman! If the so-called fourth group is against racism, then this group is not part of the problem. Thus, there is no reason to include this group with the other three. But if this is the largest group, as you suggest, then they are also members of the second group. If this imaginary "largest group of all" were not an apathetic majority, then the problem of inner city poverty and violence would not exist now, yesterday, or tomorrow.

And it is quite evident that you and others have vigorously sought to peddle the fiction that I have suggested all whites are racists. I have made it very clear that my views on racism are not formed through some ridiculous notion like Manifest Destiny, but are based on my personal experience, as well as the historical record. When the evil that a man has experienced and endured in his own life corresponds with the evil of the 500 years that preceded him, he can only bear witness to the truth. And this is truth: A majority of the European Invaders and squatters who came here uninvited were either racist, or apathetic toward the plight of the Indigenous and the African slaves. The historical record clearly shows that this racism and apathy has continued with the majority through each successive generation.

There are many examples of this. But one of the most obvious, yet overlooked examples of racism in the United States concerns the internment of Japanese American citizens during World War II. People seldom ask why German Americans were not also placed in the Konzentrationslagers. Prior to World War II, the U.S. had not engaged in a major conflict with Japan. However, the U.S. and Germany had previously fought against each other in World War I. Furthermore, German saboteurs blew up a major munitions depot on Black Tom Island in Jersey City in July 1916. And so we can clearly see that prior to WWII, the Germans had not only killed thousands of U.S. soldiers, but they had also committed acts of terrorism on U.S. soil. And so we must consider the following:

• Hitler was perceived by many to be the greater threat to world peace.• The Germans had a recent history of violence and aggression against the United States.• There were far more German Americans living in the U.S. than Japanese Americans.

When we consider these three important facts we can only conclude that German Americans posed a far greater threat to national security than Japanese Americans. But the fact that German Americans were not placed in Konzentrationslagers can only mean one thing. And that one thing is RACISM, because German Americans were also "white people". A majority of Americans have never given this issue a second thought. And that is because the "largest group" you have referred to is actually the second group that I have already identified. This group is defined by it's general apathy toward social issues that do not directly concern them, as well as an addiction to materialism.

Your admonition that I should become part of the "solution" is laughable. Only a fool would seek to appease the cancer that eats at his flesh and can only bring him to ruin. A reasonable man will seek to cut out the cancer, to destroy it, and to render it less than a memory. I am a reasonable man.

There is a difference between a citizen of German Ancestery being interned because it is warranted due to suspicious activity on the part of the individual in time of war and just being rounded up solely due to the fact that one was of Japanese Ancestery and was an American citizen....

Of course I know, as I am a student of history. Comparing the internment of Germans here in the U.S. during WWII to the internment of the Japanese is almost as ridiculous as comparing the struggle of the Irish in America to that of the African. During WWII a total of 11,507 Germans were detained in internment camps. 11,000 of those were German Nationals who were stranded here because of the war. That leaves 507 U.S. citizens of German ancestry who were detained! But in sharp contrast, between 110,000 and 120,000 Japanese were forcibly interned in the camps. 62% of those detained were United States citizens. This disparity can only be attributed to racism, as the German American population far outnumbered the Japanese Americans.

As at war in any time there is a need to identify the enemy within before you set to vanquish it from without. Political correctness be damned as the first easily recognizable evidence of them is their appearance. Does this overstep the Constitution and personal rights. Absolutely! But is a time of war and danger and it is prudent to exercise caution and act. Short or martial law where everyone's rights are suspended the search for the enemy within is more expedient and effective if the obvious suspicions are allayed for the time being. To have it any other way would invoke a "Humane and Logical" action during a war crisis which is an oxymoron considering the ravages and atrocities of war. To allow obvious suspicious character unbridled freedom to move about at a time of war is ridiculous and yes this is based on the one common characteristic the guilty and innocent posses, their appearance or language.

Racism? I think if we look at the definition of racism -prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior- we might decide that the answer is somewhat different.

I think it is probably more attributable to the fact that those of German ancestry had been in this country for over one hundred years and Germany was a neighboring country of many other people's ancestors so they were familiar with many things about them. The more you know about someone else the less fear you feel and the more you believe you can judge how they will act.

Japan was so reclusive it had an official policy of isolation from Europe for over two hundred years before the US forced trade relation less than one hundred years before the attack on Pearl Harbor. Japanese did not begin to immigrate into this country in any numbers to speak of until about 40 years before Pearl Harbor was attacked.

Racism is a belief that one's own race is superior, not fear and fear was what motivated American policy. I think the fear of the Japanese during the war came from the fact that the citizens had barely been here for more than one generation so there was reason to believe that the immigrants could still have strong ties to a nation which attacked us, unprovoked, without first declaring hostilities.

Was internment a bad decision? In retrospect we can say yes but, I'll be honest. I do sometimes wonder when people complain about American policy during the war if they bother to look at what drove it. Considering the actions of Japan in the nations they over ran I would think we would understand why our government would do everything in its power, even going overboard at that time, to ensure that they had done everything they could to protect the American people from Japanese invasion. I suppose you may think it would be better to have sat back, hoped for the best, and accepted that if the best had not been the outcome the pillow girls and slaves created when they got here could rest easy knowing that everyone had just sat back and hoped for the best.

I notice that Japan has never compensated any of our POW's for the forced slave labor in the factories. We, at the least, didn't turn these virtual prisoners into slave laborers and we did compensate survivors years after the fact.

When a man carelessly burns down a forest to create farm land, without first considering the creatures that may dwell in said forest, it can be understood that such a man feels superior to any creatures that may live therein. Otherwise, his need for food or material gain would not outweigh the needs of the creatures his selfish actions have displaced, and rendered homeless. Yes, we can understand that a man might fear a snake or a bear, and rightly so. But having participated in the highest form of science by becoming the subject, and living as a human being for many years, I can confirm that under such circumstances it is a feeling of entitlement and superiority that predominates over all else.

It is the same when we consider the racist actions of the U.S. government during WWII. They had as much, if not more to fear from the Germans. However, it can only be seen as a sense of superiority that motivated a government to imprison U.S. citizens primarily based on race, as opposed to just cause. And it was also a sense of superiority that allowed a majority of white Americans to accept this outrage, and crime against humanity, as a necessary evil. In their warped "Ozzie and Harriet" sense of reality, since they considered themselves superior, their personal safety superseded the rights of an inferior race. But since the greater German population was of the same superior race, many believed it was worth the risk to allow a majority of German Americans to remain free and unsupervised. The presence of fear, and unfamiliarity, do not necessarily mitigate, or eliminate racism as the root cause in this matter.

L to L with all humility, Wrench is correct in his assessment of the issue. There can be no excuse for the taking life, liberty and property without due process. The Nazis were identified by Roosevelt as the greater threat over that posed by Japan in 1941. I speak of Nisei, AMERICAN citizens, not foreign nationals. Their rights were sacrosanct. There was no reason to treat them differently, there is no rationale or excuse for racism, period. That was the true nature of the order issued to do this dastardly thing. We are talking about citizens not combatants or enemy aliens. The atrocities committed by Japan and Nazi Germany are irrelevant when I see how AMERICAN citizens were treated in this arbitrary way within our 'arsenal of democracy'.

I disagree. War is hell for everyone involved. As I said, in retrospect we can all agree that it was a bad decision. But it was not one clearly defined 'racist'by the definition of racism. It was not done because of a dealing of superiority. It was done out of fear. Anyway, is Japanese a race or a nationality? A racist move might have been to incarcerate all people of Asian descent?

Part of the concept of racism as practiced is taking liberties with the rights of affected groups, such rights the controlling group would never consider taking from any of their members. "You have rights until we are afraid." That man that was shot while sitting and unarmed a month ago. What was the explanation from the officer that fired the weapon? 'I don't know why I fired'. I guess that Mongoloid is one of the 3 primary racial groups of man, while Japanese could be considered a nationality. It is funny when I read and I find no instance of treason by japanese American who distinguished themselves in battle as AMERICAN soldiers within the European Theatre of the war. Yet, there was quite a stir leading to a hanging or two regarding 5th columnist Germans involved in espionage in 1942.

I have seen photographs of the German-AMERICAN bund meetings during the 1930s. They attracted thousands and marched around with swastica flags and admiration and support for Chancellor Hitler. This reached the point where attention from the FBI was warranted. I never saw any of this from Japanese-Americans in response to Japan's aggression in Asia. Under those circumstances, would I be more suspicious of citizens of Japanese or German origin?

Pearl Harbor was 2500 miles from the U.S. Pacific Coast, not exactly across the street, especially in 1941. This true, while German submarine, wolf-packs were known to be prowling the AMERICAN eastern seaboard and had been spotted on more than one occasion. Under those circumstance, which national origin of citizenry would you be more concerned about?

The fear that you speak of is just an offshoot of racism. As it is another race or ethnicity, it it easier to justify an imposition on them, one that would turn the Constitution on its head, if anglos had to face identical treatment.

This thread is devoted to an attempt to under race related issues from a variety of perspectives. My point is that racism is always more subtle than having a KKK fellow burning a cross on my lawn. Racism in action means the affected race is always given the short end of the stick. They are to receive less and are expected to want and deserve less.

I'm not saying what was done was right but that given the time and circumstances it was understandable. And of course there was support for Hitler's ideology in America. Of course there were subs patrolling our eastern border. Germany didn't attack without warning and without a previous declaration of hostilities.

It's easy to think that no one considered doing that to Germans because they were white. But, I simply think some are too quick to stop thinking when they have the word 'racist' to fall back on. They are too quick to condemn when the word racist has already rolled across their lips too many times.

Considering the times they lived in, considering events throughout the world, all things factored in; I'm afraid I see chalking this up to racism as very simplistic.

There is a difference between official representatives of our society in regards to law enforcement and the activity of criminal elements for which I am not paying their salaries. Seems a simple enough concept to me, I really wonder what others can contribute to this discussion.

We are not talking about crimes by thugs, but the official policy of the United States Government toward AMERICAN citizens justified based on fear and the underlying factor that no one wants to admit, racism.

The officials of our Government should not be a party to fear and hatred. All of you would not be so forgiving if it had happened to you, now would you? The Nisei deserved every penny of restitution and more.

I agree that restitution was fair. Wouldn't it be nice if Japan could follow suit with the hundreds of thousands they forced into slave labor during the war. What's your stand on that? Probably not racist of them, in your opinion.

I follow your point Japan, has been slow to officially take responsibility for its barbaric behavior during the war. Is restitution warrented? Probably.

But does any of this absolve the US Government of its travesty of justice? Stealing the rights of the Nisei is more than just the 'fortunes of war'. I am surprised how many are unable to see this. Donald Trump has taken the view that it was ok at the time to incarcerate a portion of the American population without due process. Yep, it all ties in.

Credence and Live, I'm reading your discussion and being enlightened. I didn't like history but don't remember any of this about Japan. I think the difference is that I was born to close in time to this. Thus it was not history but current events..

Surely, Diane you are not that aloof to these basic concepts of right and wrong. You are not so much outside the age brackets of the participants of this discussion. None of us were alive during the Second World War but were born within 10 years after. You started this thread not to pussyfoot around with niceties but to have candid discussions. You have more experience in direct confrontations with the principles of the things I am trying to explain. Where is your backbone? You have to know something about history to explain to so many of those that don't get the facts as WE have experienced them. How about some help?

Didnot mean to spook you, Diane. When you open a Pandora's box like this, you're not going to find ice cream sundaes.

A graduate of Little Rock central High, your story and acheivement could warrant documentation. A compelling piece of history just 10 years before you graduated. If Earnest Green were part of this discussion, he would say not to go easy on people that need to be educated if they seriously want to understand.There is so much that you can share to shake all the misconceptions out there regarding this topic and how and why most of US see things the way we do.

I was part of the forced bussing thing of the early seventies, trauma because of white folks? Never heard of it.

Race issues are by their nature convoluted. The principles involve for discussion are the same mechanisms used for sexism. Don't you need a broad base of general knowledge even to qualify as a teacher?

Much of my background is similar to yours, but you faced additional challenges that are above and beyond my own. Interweave your experiences and philosophy to correct wrong headed ideas from the few, and explain how in your experience why they are wrong.

Race and ethnic group identification is just a red herring by some that want to convolute the issue and its topic rather than acknowledge the possibility that their assessments are incorrect. Some refer to blacks as an ethnic group, others as a race. Either way you were still designated to sit on the back of the bus. Why ignore the principle involved playing semantic games?

About two hours ago I was following a perfectly good train of thought to put here. I got side-tracked a couple of times and lost my train of thought. I came back to read what I had and couldn't finish it. After I regroup, I will post with coherence.

I think race is important from that stand point of loving all people. Color blind is not good because that is ignoring reality. We have cultural difference that we all need to learn about to appreciate why people who they are and do what they do. Physical differences are goo to explore in order to know the differences in the way our hair reacts to water, why sunburn has a more negative reaction in white people than Black people (and dna can cause a mixed impact), etc.

Sounds to me as if you are attempting to turn pepper into rat droppings with this argument.

Events within the entire world at the time equated to a travesty of justice. Had the US during peace time chosen to detain thousands of people of a specific ancestry just because they could...that would be a conversation.

As it stands that is the problem I find with liberals. Everything is black and white to them. Life is, consistently, shades of gray. Failure to take all factors into account makes discussion difficult.

What if it happened to you, would you be Accomodating? Accepting shades of gray is fine when it is to your advantage or convenience. Just don't be the on the receiving end of that race based concern.

This tells me about the mindset of the conservative, I am learning a great deal.

Also, L to L, I thought that I would include this excerpt fro a Wikipedia article. It might support my argument, but Conservs might call Wikipedia a leftist reference source?

The internment of Japanese Americans in the United States during World War II was the forced relocation and incarceration in camps in the interior of the country of between 110,000 and 120,000[2] people of Japanese ancestry who had lived on the Pacific coast. Sixty-two percent of the internees were United States citizens.[3][4] These actions were ordered by President Franklin D. Roosevelt shortly after Imperial Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor.[5]

Incarceration was applied unequally due to differing population concentrations and, more importantly, state and regional politics: more than 110,000 Japanese Americans, nearly all who lived on the West Coast, were forced into interior camps, but in Hawaii, where the 150,000-plus Japanese Americans comprised over one-third of the population, 1,200 to 1,800 were interned.[6] The internment is considered to have resulted more from racism than from any security risk posed by Japanese Americans.[7][8]

Honestly, if there was a reason to feel that my incarceration was necessary in order to secure the safety of millions I would probably attempt to look at it pragmatically. It's like racial profiling at airports. It is not acceptable. Which I find odd. What types of people have committed the most acts of terror recently? If I was of middle eastern descent I'd expect to be looked at in a different manner than someone of Swiss descent. Now, if there were no terror attacks at all, that would not make any sense.

Everyone has repeatedly said that the decision of the US government to send the Japanese Americans to interment camps was an unfortunate decision. All anyone is attempting to make you see is that is was not racist. It was targeted at people from a specific country which had already proven itself to be unconcerned about killing innocent civilians. Now, we can look at the dynamics of the areas they came from and see why some might have pushed for the policy to be put into place. Some claim it was economics. They present valid data to support this. Some claim it was fear of Japanese because of the world war. That is reasonable. Some say it was simply racial prejudice. I find that one hard to swallow because, as has been pointed out to you, it was targeted only at people of Japanese descent. Not all people of Asian descent.

There was plenty of racist law in the West at that time toward the Asian community. I can easily agree with you on the charge of racism where most of these laws are concerned. I simply don't think you have a leg to stand on with your current argument.

race 1 (rās)n.1. A group of people identified as distinct from other groups because of supposed physical or genetic traits shared by the group. Most biologists and anthropologists do not recognize race as a biologically valid classification, in part because there is more genetic variation within groups than between them.

"The traditional definition of race and ethnicity is related to biological and sociological factors respectively. Race refers to a person's physical characteristics, such as bone structure and skin, hair, or eye color. Ethnicity, however, refers to cultural factors, including nationality, regional culture, ancestry, and language."

eth·nic[ˈeTHnik]ADJECTIVEof or relating to a population subgroup (within a larger or dominant national or cultural group) with a common national or cultural tradition:

Race is a function of biology: ethnicity is a function of culture or nationality. In 65 years I've never heard once of the "race" of Americans, Germans, or other nationality. The dog hunts just fine.

"Race refers to a person's physical characteristics, such as bone structure and skin, hair, or eye color. Ethnicity, however, refers to cultural factors, including nationality, regional culture, ancestry, and language."

It appears the dog is still in the woods doing what it was intended to do.

Do me a favor and take the time to read this encloypedic account of the event? Are you of the same mind? These sorts of things and your sort of perceptions are at the heart as to why racial animus persists among us. When has all this 'precautionary security" ever apply to white folks?

Racism is not an acceptable interpretation of 'shade of gray'.Racial Profiling is a lazy excuse for poor police work, race and ethnicity is only a factor among many others which should have greater weight when you decide to accost or inconvenience someone in the name of security. Another difference between progressives and conservatives. Looked at differently crosses the line when you can accost, detain and arrest a woman as a suspected terrorist only because she wears a burka?

As for the racism, what do you get from the article? I hope that either you or Wilderness can give due credence to scholarly articles, even though it interferes with the conservative world view. Many of the points that you make in your second paragraph are found in the article.

Japanese people have been the subject of racial prejudice in the United States, this not some sort of odd anomaly. For those that are not Anglo, there is no surprise as to the motives for this and every other indignity visited upon non whites as part of AMERICAN History.

While you admit to plenty of racist laws against the Asian community, this relocation thing is different?How is that possible, or even probable?

I'll read your article but I'll say that it is different simply because of fear of invasion by that particular nation.

And I have been inconvenienced. I've been grossly and intimately searched at airports because of what we are attempting to ensure doesn't happen in our airways.

As a woman, whose sex has been subjugated, relegated to second class citizen status, denied fair wages and equal opportunity I'll have to say it always amazes me when someone says because I'm white i wouldn't understand discrimination.

As a woman, I would suspect that you would know how these things actually work in real time. Thanks for checking out the article, I think that you will find it quite informative. You KNOW how those in opposition to women's rights always downplay the nature, depth and breath of the problem. Wilderness is one thing, but was expecting a little more from you.

Seriously, I do remember my father supporting Republicans. After I read the chronology I thought back to the 50s. I do remember that George Wallace and Orval Faubus (our "curseword" governor) were true racists to the bone.

After reading the chronology I did a little more, not much, research. Republicans were most outside the south and the Democrats were in the south. I also have other thoughts on inclusion of rights for people that are not based on race or women being included).

I believe it, I have read little about them because they aren't interesting reading material. I am more interested in how history is being made today, which to me is the most exciting time to be alive. I look forward to a great shaking and awakening.

Just to point out, 'white folks' is about as racist a term as any other. Precautionary security as you put it has not applied to black folks. It has not applied to hispanic folks. It has not applied to any folks. Other than what was done during WWII to people who came, or were descended, from a nation that we were at war with. It was wrong. Everyone agrees to that.

Also, to point out. White folks as you put it have been just as crappy to white folks as others. Black folks have been just as crappy to black folks, as others. I suppose any color you chose to slap a label on for a person you will find that that color is pretty color blind when it comes to thinking up reasons to commit atrocities.

Get over yourself. Black folks (and I use this term only because it appears to be your preferred way of describing people) got a raw deal for part of the history of this country. I suppose we will all have to sit around and listen to people complain that the past is somehow an impediment to their present for many centuries to come.

Alright,you have made your point, you find me extreme. I find it extreme for anyone who has looked at history of Japanese-AMERICAN existence in the U.S to deny the rank influence of racism in the relocation matter. I not talking about big boy pants. We are not going to solve race problems when we look at the same events, yet come to markedly different conclusions.

Maybe Wrench deserves more credit than he gets for 'seeing the big picture'. Continued political activity and agitation is necessary if we can't find common points of understanding to move forward.

If we can't even arrive at a commonly accepted definition of racism,looking at the same examples, then race will remain a contentious issue for all us for the foreseeable future.

I don't think that there is anything insulting about referring to people as 'folks'.

I don't think anyone has come to different conclusions. The only thing anyone was pointing out was that the term racist was extreme. It was wrong. It was a travesty of justice. I simply think if every Asian in America had been interred we could use that term. Other than that we were in agreement that Americans should not have had to endure that.

I find wrenchbiscuit's rants to be racist to the extreme. If you give him credit for anything other than being an impediment I'll say that is more of an impasse than the interment disagreement.

I don't know. I've always wondered why people call themselves African Americans. How many countries do African Americans trace their ancestry to? What other race does this? I don't. But I don't put any emphasis or stock in it I suppose since I'm just an American mutt. I know some who call themselves Italian American. Third and fourth generation. Although I find that silly they are identifying with a country. Not a continent of diverse and unique people. Any Asian American I know considers themselves some country American, not an entire continent.

I guess my point is if you look at it one way you are right but you, yourself, identify as black so you are identifying with physical characteristics not nationality and complaining that others do the same. It's a little confusing.

And there is nothing wrong with using the word folks. But you are lumping a skin tone into one as if that skin tone is one. All alike, all privileged, all completely oblivious to any suffering because that skin tone never suffers, never has to deal with any adversity. They are all white, so special.

Most people who come to this country have a choice. Slaves didn't have a choice. There ancestry and heritage stops at the minute the slaves ships departed from their ports to their destinations. After that is was a mixture of white slaves owners intermixing with slaves. For those people, they can trace part of their heritage and ancestry to those white folks. That's why they are called African American.

If a black person looks at their heritage on Ancestry.com. One side will stop at the borders of America. The other side might continue on to Europe or other countries. I am first generation Italian and so is my wife. We can trace our heritage all the way back to Europe.

African African? It's a good question. The term comes from the immediate end of the post civil rights era, say 1968. Like the dashikis and Afro-hair dos, it was source of pride of person for a people who desparate ly needed it. We were shown in America as a people without an origin or meaningful contribution, having just fell from the sky in American cultural norms. The term is a political creation, most of us are centuries removed from Africa and our cultural bonds have since disappeared. Negro was considered a derogatory term. I have no problem with black or even, colored.

I have seen the term ASIAN American used.

Consider it just another adjective to describe the person.

Yes, I am Black and my nationality is American. Race may be an Inaccurate construct, there is only a remote physical resemblence between Africans and AMERICAN blacks. Simply, too much time has passed, it is really the only common point.

I am confused, what are you confused about?

As for the skin tone, when statistics involving race are involved do we not delineate between black and white? The culture, dominated by whites, had been adversarial toward people of color in my view. The issue is institutional and systemic, and cannot be pinned on any specific individual.

When I look at those statistics in virtually every meaningful statistic in regards to life in America that compares based on race and ethnicity ON AVERAGE, your group or people/folks are special. When some of those disparities are reduced or eliminated, maybe then we could can have a meeting of the minds.

I have often ask why everyone seems to be a hypen-American other than white people. Before African American it was Afro American? Who is deciding what we will be and then changing it.

There was a time when Negro was not a derogatory time. During that time, the Negro National Anthem was written. I was going to teach it and told students were were going to sing the Negro National Anthem. Some kids were ticked and planned to tell administrators. I Googled it to show the students I was calling it by the correct name.

I saw the evolution from Negro to colored to Black to Afro American to African American.

People here before European settlers are called Native Americans. Mexican Americans, Latin Americans, etc.

Damn. Here I thought I was just your average struggling American working class business owner. I didn't know I was special. I sure hope I get to take advantage of all that special before I die because I haven't seen any of it yet. But, since you think I'm special I guess I must be.

The government (federal, state and local) violates the 5th, 13th and 14th Amendments.

I hoped that a black president would have remedied those constitutional violations, but he hasn't. I believe its racist by design. You bet I think it is with explicit racial laws, policies, and regulations.

If you think it was justified I'd have to disagree with you, for it very much was not. Japanese citizens, surely - American citizens, most certainly not barring a few very recent immigrants.

So not justified, just understandable. It isn't hard to find the roots of the interment; the Japanese communities did not assimilate well. They retained as much of their culture as possible, including language. The refused as much of OUR culture as possible. The lived in large communities in which no one else was really welcome. And at the tail end of it they were easy to spot visually. So very little of actual racism here, outside of being able to find and, in the fear climate of the time, raise emotions. Not of inferiority, but of deadly danger (although hindsight gives a clear lie to that danger).

Not everything is about race - witness the "racial" profiling by some southern sheriffs in their search for illegal aliens. That is clearly about illegals, not race, but the cry of racism is heard far and wide even when there isn't any. Only a desire to keep illegals out of the country. And in a similar vein it wasn't about race that was behind the interment; it was about fear of a very specific nationality. Chinatown's didn't disappear, Koreans weren't jailed - just the ex-members of one country that was attacking ours.

The Constitution and Bill of Rights must apply equally to everyone, and not be dismissed for certain groups because it is inconvenient to others. We just reduce it to just a scrap of paper. I hear you about the assimilation and apparant clannish ness. Such is the nature of their culture, who has the right to penalize them for it? The U.S. Government should not have allowed itself to give in to fear and irrational hysteria. It is unacceptable.

You're right, not everything is about race, but it was about race this time....

I don't understand how it can be "fear" because fear is false evidence appearing real. Do you mean that the government has created a "irrational hysteria" through fear mongering? I'm trying to understand, maybe I have a block.

No, the government should not do unconstitutional things. I'm straining to see how they do that out of "unjustied fear and hysteria" of others though. They must get a pay-off of comfort, power and pleasure for their service of violations at the expense of others. Its such a racket playing with the big money.

A racist policy on the part of the Government justifies incarcerating people based solely on their Japanese ancestry, the fact that they were AMERICAN citizens who committed no crime. It was a race based hysteria, with no basis in fact or reality. Neither German or Italian Americans were subject to such indignity.

I trust you recognize the contradiction in your statements here? It is about assimilation and clannishness. It is about fear and irrational hysteria. And the next sentence says it is about race, even though the majority of that specific race was left untouched.

And yet...no race was singled out for interment. You claim it was, but that is not true. I even pointed out that most of the race was untouched, yet you still claim it was all about racism. Better check your dictionary again.

You are equivocating, wilderness. Call it an ethnic group, then, so are blacks and Hispanics. How does that change this issue, people were still being discriminated against based on race, color, ethnicity, there is no foundation that justifies that? I dislike conservatives because they are so obtuse about what is clearly obvious. It is no wonder that our differences are practically impossible to breach. Is there a difference in discriminating against an ethnic group and a race? Because it is a member of a racial group and not the entire racial group, it is not racism? That is ludicrous.

You dodged my inquiry about Germans and Italians, what is your sage explanation for the difference in that case?

"I dislike conservatives because they are so obtuse about what is clearly obvious."

You are saying I'm obtuse? As you also say the Japanese were discriminated against because they are of the oriental race while the rest of the race was left alone? It's like claiming racial discrimination when gays or muslims are discriminated against! When gays are refused an apartment lease or a store product because they're gay is it a racial thing? When muslims are refused permission to build a mosque is it racially motivated? When we deport illegal aliens is it a racial matter? Or course not, any more than Japanese being interred because they were from a country we were at war with is.

eth·nic[ˈeTHnik]ADJECTIVEof or relating to a population subgroup (within a larger or dominant national or cultural group) with a common [b]national[/i] or cultural tradition:

Yes, it was very much ethnic discrimination, but not racial by any stretch of the word. It was wrong, it was discrimination and it should not have happened, but it was NOT racial discrimination. Even if you were foolishly claiming the Japanese are a different race from any other oriental country it still would not have been about race. The roots were vastly different and the solutions to differing forms of discrimination are different as well. You are providing one answer to the OP; it's really tough to discuss racism when any form of discrimination is declared to be racially motivated.

And no, I didn't dodge anything. Germans and Italians were not interred because they assimilated so much better - being a part of the existing culture and having been in the country for much longer they did not raise the fears the Japanese did. Germans and Italians were among the very first immigrants to the country and that made a huge difference. That should have been clear - in fact, you indicated you understood and agreed as to the difference.

Wrench has long maintained that all whites are racists, and ONLY whites. No other race can be racist for some reason. It seems to stem from Columbus - he was European (white) and therefore all whites in the world are racists.

I strongly suggest that you stick to the truth. Here we see that you continue to peddle what is clearly an outright fiction. As I have made clear in many other posts, and as I have already explained in this thread, I have never suggested that all whites are racist. I have maintained that the historical record clearly shows that a majority of whites have either been racist or indifferent to the plight of the African and the Indigenous. You and many others here would do well to take some remedial courses in reading comprehension. Majority does not mean "all".

Concerning the second half of your comment. I maintain that It is not possible for a minority to express racism against an oppressive majority. Yes, a minority individual is capable of feeling superior, but such feelings when separated from a system of racist oppression cannot have the same effect as such feelings that are directed from the perspective of the majority. It is the same difference between a man with a loaded gun and a man who is shooting blanks. In order to realize racism, we must not only have the personal "feeling" or the motivation, but we must also have the real world application. Read and learn.

Sorry, but I've followed your rants and tirades over the months, and have watched as there haven't been more than a handful that don't complain that "whites", not a particular group such as the KKK, are racist. The only conclusion possible is that all whites are considered racist and you are more than willing to express that racist view in print. Your posts are as racist as any I see on these forums and vastly more so than than the large majority. A good example is the declaration here that those of German ancestory were not all interred in WWII because whites are racist.

While you may wish to change the definition of racism, no one is interested in your personal definition. It may support your own posts and opinions, but that's about all it does.

My so-called rants notwithstanding, you cannot show one comment that I have made on any post where I have stated,as you have falsely accused, that "all whites are racist". That is the issue at hand. It is not a matter of interpretation, it is simply a matter of you creating a fiction in an effort to demean my character. I have no problem with someone who disagrees with my outlook. But since you cannot refute my position in an intelligent manner, you resort to slander instead.

What troubles many politically correct illegal aliens is that I do not have a colonized mind. The historical record shows that good white men have been few and far between. This is not my opinion, but simply a matter of fact. John Brown was a righteous white man, but we all know how he was rewarded for doing the right thing. More recently, Daniel and Philip Berrigan, Ed Snowden, and Chelsea Manning also joined the ranks of "the good white people" and they were also thrown under the bus. Apparently, it is illegal for white people to stop acting like white people. Many white people simply can't deal with the truth. For instance: It is ironic that many will suggest that inner city blacks living in poverty need to "accept responsibility". Yet, we can see a double standard at play here. The white racist refuses to accept that their forefathers are responsible for creating the situation in the first place. And since this is an historical fact, it is the progeny of a squatter nation who bear the greater responsibility for correcting the problems associated with racism, not the Indigenous, nor the African. In a court of law, a judge does not order the victim to help the perpetrator to pay restitution! That would be absurd. Read and learn, then apply this special wisdom to your own life.

"All whites are racist" is a conclusion based on dozens or hundreds of posts indicating whites are racist. Not a single one I can remember ever limited it to anything but "whites". A reasonable conclusion, then, although I'm sure there is at least one (yourself) that you don't consider racist, and it is reinforced by the quaint and foolish idea that only caucasians can be racist.

Do you know what an illegal alien is? As in a citizen of a foreign country that is in a second country illegally. As it was not illegal for Europeans to be in any of the areas of the western hemisphere, they were not illegal aliens.

How odd that the only good white men just happen to all be criminals. Says something about your viewpoint of whites, doesn't it?

If you want reparations paid to the descendants of black slaves, shouldn't you be going after the ones that sold them to slavers in the first place? As in other blacks in Africa? Certainly none of MY ancestors, for at least a couple of thousand years, kept any slaves, so you can leave me out of it. Although I'm not responsible for what my father, grandfather or any other ancestor did anyway.

Sorry, no one squatted on any land in the original settlements. They were all invited, or bought the land as they did for Manhattan.

If it's the problem of the nation (and it is) then it is also the problem of Indians and Blacks to end racism. As we can't order the perpetrators of the beginning of slavery to pay, we'll just all have to cover the cost. Including peoples of all racists. Read and learn, then apply this special wisdom to your own life: it is a matter of all peoples everywhere to end racism, not just the white race.

This has nothing to do with conclusions based on previous posts. This has to do with the fact that you told a lie on someone. And that someone is me. You said in no uncertain terms that I had previously commented that all whites are racist. The fact that I did not, and the fact that you now attempt to back-pedal and suggest that my previous posts "led you to that conclusion" only further illustrates that you knew you were lying. I suggest you save yourself some embarrassment and learn how to properly use the English language.

For instance, you could have said : "wrenchBiscuits previous posts have led me to believe that he feels all whites are racist". This is how an intelligent person would construct the comment. This way you are expressing an opinion without telling a lie.Word: What you "feel" someone is saying does not translate to what that someone has actually said. If the utterance is never made then you cannot say that it was spoken. This is elementary, and I find it fascinating that I need to explain the obvious to an adult white male. The proper thing for you to do is to apologize for telling a lie, and to make sure you never do it again.

And you know nothing of history. The white man was not "invited" to steal anything on our continent. That includes 20 million acres in the southern United States. The miscreant Andrew Jackson forcibly relocated the 5 Civilized Tribes to points west of the Mississippi after the "Indian Removal Act of 1830" in order to make way for white settlement. Thousands died on what has become known as "The Trail of Tears". And when people are forcibly relocated it means that they must leave their property and most of their possessions behind, and basically start from scratch in a strange place. And what did the good white folks do after the land was stolen? Of course, they erected churches,started praising Jesus, and then imported more African slaves. And so, this also illustrates the truth of my assertion that most whites have always been either indifferent or racist. Yet you and other uneducated people here have attempted to paint me racist for simply telling the truth!

Concerning the criminality of the great white heroes I have mentioned: Daniel and Philip Berrigan,Chelsea Manning, Ed Snowden, and John Brown . Of course an evil system is going to label them as criminals, as they have come to destroy the evil heart of America. Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King were also treated as criminals. It is interesting to note that the average American will honor rapists, pedophiles, and murderers like Washington, Jefferson, and Columbus, but they will consider true patriots and humanitarians like these I have mentioned to be criminals. Whether you believe in the Christian Bible or not, even a secular person can understand that it is an evil hand that rules the world. If a man truly stands against the evil in this world, he will surely be vilified, or even crucified. Thus, your hateful words have only placed me in good company. And that is the company that I will continue to keep.

For everyone here ,One does not have to say . "Hey you there , You are a no good , son - of - a - B.........,..............[color noted here] "

In order to actually BE a racist though and far be this knowledge from leftists like so many on these forums , . If you print it out , implied it , lied about it or otherwise explain in the secret language of the written rants , then you are a racist ! A racist , for the small of mind , can be of any color of skin , of any size of minority or of a majority . it always causes me to shake my head at this obvious stupidity when , as being part of a vast majority to be called or implied a racist , when the actual person making the accusation is more often than not the real offender .

I have seen racists and bigots in the BLM parades , in the Gay parades , in the brown skinned reservations of the west, in the media ,in women's gathering and in men's ,I have seen them in the government and not for the first time either , We are seeing it in the White House too!. and I have seen them in my family and in YOURS as Racists are everywhere , in the streets , in the offices , in the ivory towers of intellectual elitism . In todays world , a racist is simply someone who opens his mouth , generally and never closes it just to keep the candle of racism burning .

In one way or another --everybody who enters into these forums is a racist .

Be not proud or pained , racism flows in ALL our bloodstreams. I dare you to prove me wrong.

In order to actually BE a racist though and far be this knowledge from leftists like so many on these forums , . If you print it out , implied it , lied about it or otherwise explain in the secret language of the written rants , then you are a racist ! A racist , for the small of mind , can be of any color of skin , of any size of minority or of a majority . it always causes me to shake my head at this obvious stupidity when , as being part of a vast majority to be called or implied a racist , when the actual person making the accusation is more often than not the real offender

Response."The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

It is impossible to rectify a situation if you can't speak about it. Intent is really what is necessary. When the intent is there, compassion should be used in discussion. I am very offended by the things Donald Trump is saying. White people, with conciliatory intent, may not understand why I am offended but will listen to my issues, with the intent of understanding.

Trump “And I say it with such a deep felt feeling, what do you have to lose? I’ll straighten it out. I’ll bring jobs back, We’ll bring spirit back. I’ll get rid of the crime, so you’ll be able to walk down the street without getting shot. Right now, you walk down the street, you get shot."

"Look at how much African American communities are suffering from Democratic control. To those I say the following: What do you have to lose by trying something new like Trump? What do you have to lose?" he asked. "You live in your poverty, your schools are no good, you have no jobs, 58 percent of your youth is unemployed. What the hell do you have to lose?"

a. He refused 3 invitations from NAACP to speak at their convention b. He refused to speak at the Hispanic Journalists convention c. He speaks about Black people, not to them, in front of a white audience d. "African American communities" - I've discussed "what makes us a community?" Those of us that are integrated into neighborhoods outside inner city have different living conditions e. I'll bring jobs back - an inner city issue/not Black/why not go to inner city to address issues f. "We'll bring spirit back." Slave owners thought slaves were happy working for nothing being beaten, and eating leftover body parts of animals g. I'll get rid of crime? Conversation should be had with inner cities h. What do you have to lose? I say, "What do we have to gain?" i. Right now you walk down the streets and get shot????? Who does? the African American community? people in the inner city?

Those who don't understand I invite to probe to see where Black people are coming from. Kayleigh McEnanny gets on my nerves with her smug looks and cat crap grins and uninformed defense of what Trump is saying. I'm not supporting Hillary so don't go there.

I have seen racists and bigots in the BLM parades , in the Gay parades , in the brown skinned reservations of the west, in the media ,in women's gathering and in men's ,I have seen them in the government and not for the first time either , We are seeing it in the White House too!. and I have seen them in my family and in YOURS as Racists are everywhere , in the streets , in the offices , in the ivory towers of intellectual elitism . In todays world , a racist is simply someone who opens his mouth , generally and never closes it just to keep the candle of racism burning .

In one way or another --everybody who enters into these forums is a racist .

Be not proud or pained , racism flows in ALL our bloodstreams. I dare you to prove me wrong.

Response,

ahorse, again, I think you are frustrated! You have your point of view. Hang in there! Discuss it! Communication is the beginning of understand. You can understand and disagree but at least try to understand!

What troubles many politically correct illegal aliens is that I do not have a colonized mind. The historical record shows that good white men have been few and far between. This is not my opinion, but simply a matter of fact.

My responseFrom my experience, the white people who spoke up and were active were really brave. There were many white people who were afraid to speak up. As you alluded, they feared for their lives. From my Ancestry research, I found that many slave owners, ironically, did not believe in slavery.

John Brown was a righteous white man, but we all know how he was rewarded for doing the right thing. More recently, Daniel and Philip Berrigan, Ed Snowden, and Chelsea Manning also joined the ranks of "the good white people" and they were also thrown under the bus. Apparently, it is illegal for white people to stop acting like white people. Many white people simply can't deal with the truth. For instance: It is ironic that many will suggest that inner city blacks living in poverty need to "accept responsibility".

My responseI think there is a certain amount of responsibility, based on my experience, that parents should have. Unfortunately, kids become parents and perpetuate a cycle of poverty. That is a crucial problem. I've told students that those cute babies will need parenting until they are 18 and beyond. The slaves were mated to produce more children and then the children were sold off or traded. That does not happen now.

Yet, we can see a double standard at play here. The white racist refuses to accept that their forefathers are responsible for creating the situation in the first place. And since this is an historical fact, it is the progeny of a squatter nation who bear the greater responsibility for correcting the problems associated with racism, not the Indigenous, nor the African. In a court of law, a judge does not order the victim to help the perpetrator to pay restitution! That would be absurd. Read and learn, then apply this special wisdom to your own life.

My responseMy outlook is based on my profession of faith as a Christian. The slave owners/traders have died. Our ancestors who suffered tremendously have died. They would have wanted us to have better, prosperous lives and I'm sure would be proud of those of us who have accomplished so much. I ask God to forgive me daily. He won't forgive me if I don't forgive others. I don't want to be held responsible for the crimes of other Black people. I can't hold white people responsible for what their ancestors did; HOWEVER,

all of us, all races, have the moral responsibility to treat others the way we want to be treated. It's good to bring up the past to put everything in perspective. White people can't empathize with our journey because they have not walked in our shoes. We have not walked in theirs. Ultimately, I would like for us to be compassionate, understanding and forgiving.

I have retired. I don't need any programs. I'm sure I will experience racism more before I die but not the level of discrimination I have experienced over my life. These Scriptures help me keep life's troubles in perspective:

Romans 5:3-5 3 And not only this, but [c]we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Romans 8:2828 And we know that [k]God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

I don't want to be held responsible for the crimes of other Black people. I can't hold white people responsible for what their ancestors did; HOWEVER,

all of us, all races, have the moral responsibility to treat others the way we want to be treated.

Very well said, and you've covered an awful lot in just these few words. The final sentence, particularly, is something that so many people set aside and so conveniently forget when it comes to their treatment of others.

I needed to get back with you on this. You. asked me what I would do about women that keep having babies to increase their social services payouts.

The whole idea of welfare is that it is to temporary with work or preparation to get a job first and foremost. That should apply to anyone considered otherwise able bodied. There should be a trade-off of public benefits offsetting wages earned in a reasonable proportion. Those that insist on being irresponsible will face the prospect of having their children removed to social services as they are unfit parents not able to provide for their material needs. Where that line needs to drawn, I don't know. But it needs to be drawn, all the same.

I agree, although the proliferation of disabilities will toss a good sized monkey wrench into "able bodied".

But putting kids into the social services system...that's a hard pill to take. Much of the time a pill worse than the disease - kids don't come out of the system of foster care very well and we would be ruining tens of thousands of lives. Whether they would be worse off with a parent that refuses to put any effort into supporting them is another question.

But yes, welfare - ALL forms of welfare from food stamps to earned income credit to free school lunches - should be temporary (an exception for Obamacare as it is a govt. mandated purchase that half the nation cannot pay for). It just doesn't work that way as it was never intended to be temporary and there are far too many loopholes anyway.

Assuming your trade-off is a gradual loss of benefits as wages increase, yes. A reasonable one, not what we now have which removes benefits faster than salaries increase, resulting in a loss of incentive to improve and increased poverty as skills and income increase. Stupid in the extreme, but that's what we currently have.

LOL I doubt it, for the devil is in the details. When a person has worked for years at minimum wage, getting help for their 3 kids, will you stop that help?

When a person is going to college (on our dime) will you require them to work 40 hours per week as well, or simply give them all the living expenses they need as well as tuition, fees, books, etc.? I did it, and my son did it, so it CAN be done - are you willing to force others to do it or starve?

Will you stop welfare, putting kids in foster care and the parent(s) on the streets to sleep, without food or good clothing?

Putting an end to the rape of our charity system will hurt a lot of people, over half of them helpless, innocent children. Are you willing to force that hurt so that there will BE a social net in the future? Or when kids die - dead and buried - as parents move around faster than you can catch them rather than give them into the system, will you back off and care for the entire family or will you stick to your guns?

At some point the assist has to end, the person will have had ample time to make the appropriate adjustments otherwise how does the program end by forcing people back to work?

I give them the assistance they need up to a certain amount over a specific period of time. Outside you extrordinary, super people, it is extremely difficult to work full time and go to school. Like I said before, my idea of what constititutes help is different when compared to yours. I approve of this free or low cost go to college plank in the Democrat's platform.

I have no choice as to the destination of people who refuse to work and will not cooperate with programs that assist in making them productive and self sufficient members of society. But I am willing to be more patient and provide more options than conservatives.

Minor children will always have options, regardless of the choices of their parents. As Diane says, social services is not desirable if it can be avoided. However, parents that do not provide for the material needs of minors in their charge are no better.

Ultimately, I cannot help a lazy person. I will do whatever I can to provide for those that are willing to put forth effort, more than you in your conservative ideological stance would be willing to do. But at the end of the day for ablebodied adults, it comes down to " those that don't work, don't eat"

Those are hard questions; HOWEVER, it is an investment to pay for education of those getting a college degree.

There are loan forgiveness programs are available for teachers and those that go into fields where there is a shortage like Government intelligence. It's kind of scary accumulated the loans but my loan for teaching was forgiven over a 5 year period.

The real annoying situation is the woman who can't take care of one child and continues to have more. These days, many seem to get "engaged" an have kids but never get married. I suppose the advantage is that they don't have to get a divorce. This does not mean that all women fall into the baby trip.

How is it an investment (for the country as a whole) to pay for a college education for anyone? We already have more college degrees out there than we can put to work, so what additional value to the country is there in producing more?

I understand that Uncle Sam very often supplies subsidies in various forms to get people to do what it wants them to. While I don't have a real objection to that, I would rather we simply pay for the things we want rather than hide the bookkeeping so it is much harder to find out what we are actually paying or paying for. When we forgive loans, or provide tax breaks, maybe for a business hiring in the inner city, we never seem to know just what the cost of that teacher or employee is. The information is there of course, but no one ever seems to collate it and put it all together to get the bottom line.

Perhaps it can be compared to educational reimbursement; but ed reimb is actually considered a benefit.

The teacher loan forgiveness was/is done for a) field with not enough teachers (math, science) and b) inner city school where most teachers do not want to work.

I was harrassed for 5 years and given bad evaluations supposedly because all I did in choir was play the piano and have kids sing. I was written up for not using popsicle sticks at the door, not walking around the room to manage the classroom, not giving a lecture on Beyonce and JZ so kids could take notes, and not showing student how to use Cornell Notes. It was a bunch of BS and I rebutted every complaint. The real deal was they wanted to cut salaries. My salary was hire because I had worked for years and was good at what I did.

Three weeks ago I received a letter stating that there was a teacher shortage and they want me to come to work as a long term sub at less than half of my salary before I retired. I quickly threw the letter in the trash. Now they will get a new, inexperienced teacher at less than half the pay or have another retired teacher come in at less than half the pay.

The student loans actually compare to grants. That expenditure is not borne by the District but by the Federal Government. I'm sure they have copious records...I guess! Ultimately you Taxpayer Wilderness pay for it.

Like you, I don't know what the answer is. A friend of mine started a GoFundMe account because her nephew's baby is on life support. The mother was arrested and I think the baby has shaken baby syndrome.

We didn't create the problem but the child abuse/neglect problems are real and serious.

I'm from Arkansas. I just received this post. You are so right, some parents are not better. It is sooo complicated but "Trump, personally, plans to fix everything!"

Just received

Children in foster care in Arkansas reaches all-time high

The number of children in foster care has reached an all-time high in Arkansas, straining state officials who have long referred to the growth as a crisis.

But the state has reversed a trend of losing foster families every quarter, according to reports prepared by the Division of Children and Family Services.

"We're all feeling a little bit of the strain of the number of people in foster care, and we're glad that we're making progress, but as much progress as we've made, we have more children in care now," said Lauri Currier, executive director of The Call, a nonprofit organization that mobilizes Christian families to foster or adopt children who are in the care of the division.

From March 2015 to March 2016, the total number of available and in-use beds in foster homes increased from 2,801 to 3,306, but the number of foster children also increased, from 4,178 to 4,791, according to the latest quarterly report. In addition to moving in with foster families, children may be placed in group homes or with relatives on a provisional basis, and some receive acute placements, which can involve clinical care.

Since March, according to Mischa Martin, director of the Division of Children and Family Services, the number of foster children has continued to climb. There were about 5,030 children in foster care last week. The all-time high, reached earlier this month, was about 5,050.

When Martin became director on July 8, there were 4,983 children in foster care. She said at the time that the state had never had more than 5,000 children in the system.

Substance abuse by heads of households outpaces neglect as reasons for why children enter foster care, according to the division's latest report. About 56 percent of children enter foster care because of substance abuse by their caregivers, though the report notes that many children enter the system for more than one reason.

Martin said partnering with outside groups such as The Call is key in her strategy for managing the treatment of children in the state's care.

"We've really collaborated with our partners to help them increase the number of foster homes we have," Martin said. "We're trying to streamline the [foster bed] opening process, increase communication with our partners, and work through some technical issues that we've had in the past to make sure we've got the most homes open."Finding foster families

Of the about 1,500 foster families in Arkansas, Currier said, her organization is responsible for about 600 of those families and is training another 250 families.

She watches the division's reports carefully.

"There was a net gain of 44 foster families over the quarter, and I can remember a day -- in the not-so-distant past -- that there were negative five. It was that way for several years in a row," Currier said. "As dire as it seems that we have all these kids in care and only 1,500 homes to care for them, I can remember a day when we had 1,000 homes, and so we are making progress."

From December 2013 through March 2015, the number of foster families dropped every quarter -- from 1,248 families to 1,168.

But the number rebounded over the past year. At the end of March this year, there were 1,478 foster families, according to the most recent report.

A child welfare case begins when a report of possible child abuse or neglect is made to the Child Abuse Hotline. Cases are investigated by the Division of Children and Family Services or, in more serious cases, the Crimes Against Children Division of the Arkansas State Police.

If the division feels that a child is not safe at any time, the child can be removed for up to 72 hours without court approval. If the report is found to be true, a child can be removed and placed in foster care, left in the home with an open protective services case or voluntary services put in place, or left with no case open or services put in place.

If a child is removed from the home, a judge must decide whether the state can continue to have custody and where the child should live.

From there, an adjudication hearing is held to decide whether the child was abused or neglected.

If found to be so, a disposition hearing is held to allow a judge to decide whether it is better for the child to be in the custody of the division or someone else.

A review hearing must be held at least every six months to ensure that everyone is following court orders.

Finally, a permanency planning hearing is held to decide the permanent placement of the child. Children can be returned to their parents, their guardianship can be given to another adult or parental rights can be terminated, allowing a child to be adopted.

The typical child stays in Arkansas' foster care system between six months and 12 months.A changing process

Currier said Martin has made her job of finding foster families easier by streamlining the process.

Amy Webb, a spokesman for the Department of Human Services, said potential foster families are now referred to a home study after their first training sessions, not at the end of the process. The home study explores applicants' social and family histories, current family makeup and support systems to see whether they are able to serve children.

She said the division is tracking families better, so it knows where they are in the process of becoming foster families. Potential foster parents will soon be able to receive paperwork electronically, if they wish. The state's www.fosterarkansas.org is getting a revamp.

The division is also now meeting monthly with organizations such as The Call, Christians for Kids and Arkansas Baptists that recruit families for the division, Webb said.

Currier said her organization aims to be a bridge between the church and the state. The Call doesn't take custody of children, but provides training to would-be foster parents -- which can take the place of state-run instruction. It also helps with paperwork; organizes donations of clothing, food and gift cards; and provides a network of support.

"A lot of times, we mean the same thing, but we don't speak the same language. So The Call speaks church -- whatever that is -- and we develop relationships. We talk about it from a Christian perspective, what it means to be a foster parent, what it means to be an adoptive parent," Currier said. "Then, we take that and we help those families by speaking the government language."

Increasing the number of foster homes is key to solving ongoing issues in the division, officials have testified during legislative meetings. The division's staff members juggle twice the casework load as their out-of-state peers and transport children across the state when foster homes aren't locally available.

Children have slept in division offices at times when no foster homes were available.

State Rep. David Meeks, R-Conway, serves on the Governor's Child Welfare Oversight Panel, adopted three boys, has an open foster home and went through The Call's training program.

He said the oversight panel is looking into the Safe Families program, used by other states, which allows parents to voluntarily surrender their children while they receive treatment for substance abuse, anger management, effective parenting or other issues.

"The children are not actually brought into the foster care system, and the parents do get the help they need," he said.

Meeks said he expected the panel to issue its full set of recommendations in the coming weeks -- well in advance of the regular legislative session that begins in January.

Martin said her division is continuing to hold "war room" meetings with other parts of the Department of Human Services to see how they can assist her division.

"That's focused on bringing our other sister divisions in to figure out how they can help with the foster care crisis, looking at substance abuse treatment, looking at preventative services," she said. "We're just really looking how we can support our caseworkers and families better by making this a DHS problem, not a DCFS problem."

This exercise in understanding may well turn out futile. Black and white perspectives are so different to the point that we can look at the same objects and we each define them as having a starkly different color. You mentioned that it may well be impossible for either of our groups to appreciate the shoes walked in by the other. It is just like the concept of matter/energy transport, it may well be possible but not anytime soon.

What seems obvious to me, when speaking to them about, you would think that they just got here from Mars. But, perhaps my point of view from their perspective would support the idea that I just dropped in from Venus.

I never had the luxury of being conciliatory with my adversaries regarding my existence and survival, I am glad that it has worked for you.

Can you share with me what you are expecting? Race relations didn't turn bad over time. They were bad from the beginning. One conversation won't change it. All people won't come to the same conclusion.

I woke up to the conversation with the horse pic this morning and read it. I then went to make my breakfast, reflecting on what I had read. By the time I sat down to respond, what I intended to say had evolved from my first reaction when I read the comments.

My hope is for people to communicate and understand another perspective, rather we agree or not. In the beginning of my career, white people would say, "You're different from the rest of them." I was hearing, "You are not a bad person. The rest of them are." I didn't feel it was a badge off pride but at least we were able to work together and communicate. They went from thinking the company hired me to observing that I was quite capable and competent. One by one, as other Black people were hired, they were viewed as "different from the rest of them" also.

Just like I hadn't spent time around white people, they hadn't spent time around Black people. Some decided they didn't like me, personally, and I decided I didn't like some of them. It was not based on race (on my part) but on backbiting, gossip, laziness, etc.

To me, the main thing is a) to be heard and b) to be respected. Sometimes you make friends. I think you and I were at odds a couple of months ago. Look at where we are.

Yes, Diane, we were at odds over an entirely different topic: religion.

Theonly thing I really see is that we (blacks and whites) share little if any common reference points. The fact that people approach you in a way as if you represented the entire ethnic group is irritating in itself. It is rude and derogatory, but what surprises me is that they don't see it as such. The white cultural norm is the norm and you are always the anomaly.

Where do they get their perceptions about 'the rest of them'? When do you stop being 'different from the others' as an explanation as to why more blacks were hired? Never crossed their minds that it is possible that the people hired were always 'the others'.

It wasn't a horse but a burro or donkey. Certain traits has been associated with those mammals and they are not necessarily complimentary.

It is the way people think and assumptions they reveal at the very starting gate.

Wasn't it you talking about all of the different languages and various interpretations of the Bible? I assumed, obviously erronenously, that taking time to study all those languages was something a white person would have done. I don't know if that was a compliment or an insult and I'm the one who said it!! To make sure I adequately cover my bases, "I'm sorry!" and "You are welcome!"I started to try to explain but I'll quit while I'm ahead ... if I really am ahead. If I am behind, I really need to shut up!!!

If the evil would have ended at the end of the Civil War, or even at Wounded Knee, then I might be in a forgiving mood. But the evil of colonialism has continued unto this very day. And the black race cannot accept responsibility for this evil. Nor can the Indigenous people. Only the European is responsible. But as you can see, there are many here who do not want the name of the perpetrator spoken.

Many white men do not want to accept responsibility for the past, but they have only made fools of themselves. They will say "It wasn't me. I didn't do it!" But they are perpetrating a great evil even in the present. Prior to Black Lives Matter, there was no "white" organization making a fuss about the disproportionate number of black people being murdered by the police. And it is quite ironic that it is popular for racists to suggest that inner city blacks are not motivated, and are fond of living on the dole. Yet, when a group like BLM does get motivated and organizes, then the same racists will turn around and accuse the organization of being violent, and racist. The point is: Minorities are not supposed to defy or question the white majority. They are supposed to politely wait until the white majority decides to act, if at all. Furthermore, a great majority of whites continue to live on stolen lands. And since you have studied the teachings of Jesus you will understand that the passage of time does not turn a wrong into a right. The Christian thing to do is to return the stolen land. Otherwise, we can only understand that a great majority of white Christian Americans are hypocrites, as there is no way around it.

Jesus said in Matthew 19: 16-24 16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

18 “Which ones?” he inquired.

Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[a] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]”

20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

Here you can replace "rich man" with "white American". According to Jesus there will be very few white Americans in heaven, and Jesus is just alright with me.

You truly suffer from delusional visions there Wrench , Better do a little less peyote , How convenient to quote the bible and God's word and hate the white race so too , I wouldn't have thought that amount of hypocrisy possible . Your obvious hated of all things "white " actually qualifies you as the ultimate racist !

"Furthermore, a great majority of whites continue to live on stolen lands."

Interesting comment. Where do you think blacks live? Hispanics? Orientals? Indians far from their reservations OR tribal homelands? Is that stolen land too, or do only whites steal land?

But I also question that "large majority" thing - my g'grandparents homesteaded, ironically, only 50 miles from where I live. There was exactly one person living the the valley they chose for a home, on the far side of the valley. Most settlers were like that - they did not settle near Indian communities, let alone in one and certainly did not steal the land Indians lived on. They didn't steal land Indians cultivated or used for animal husbandry. They didn't build a home where Indians had their commercial or mining activities.

Only where there were no signs of habitation or use, except, sometimes, for others of their own culture. I think you rather grossly overuse the term "steal" while at the same time forgetting that every Indian tribe existing since the 1500's "stole" the land from previous owners.

Wilderness: Excuse me. Europeans are the ones who came up with the idea of land ownership. Indians didn't have land ownership. They had tribes that use to war against each other. If you were one of the first Europeans to set foot on this land chances are pretty good that you were on Indian land. That's why they are called indigenous people. They were the first to habitat the land. Yes, we stole it from them by conquering them.

You cannot have ..." Indians didn't believe in land ownership ....." AND " ...........whites stole it from them............ " Therein lies the stupidity of the accusation of land theft . , we all now live on smaller pieces of land , is all you can deduce from such moronic nonsense !

I like the part where he says they didn't own land and then that they had warring tribes. I wonder if he ever wondered what they were warring over. Hunting rights, fishing rights, stuff like that. The usual stuff that goes with land ownership and arguments over who owns what.

The whole issue is such utter nonsense , where whites in the long run , probably saved the native tribes from certain obliteration by other tribes . inter tribal rape , tribal kidnapping , incest , ..............gees ...you name the offense and it was pretty prevalent . It wasn't all snow flake Pocahontas lovers on the riverbank that many here would have all first graders believe !

ahorseback and wilderness: The word "probably" is pure conjecture. You have no proof. Here is an extract right out of the history book "Lesson of our Land."

"In general, Europeans conceived of land as personal property to be used for the realization of economic and material needs and wants. Thus, land that was not actively being “improved” for agriculture, homesteads, industry or resource extraction was considered available for someone to claim and use for his or her personal benefit. Land was also closely related to class and social structure in Europe. Land afforded a certain degree of economic security and social status to landowners, both of which were important in economically and socially stratified countries in Europe.

When European immigrants began to settle in America, these ideas concerning land and its use prompted settlers to encroach upon Indian lands. While American Indians did not share this conception of land ownership, this encroachment threatened the livelihoods and very existence of tribal peoples. American Indians did not think of land as something which could be "owned." There were "rights" to land and the gifts from that land. If these "rights" were violated, it amounted to a declaration of war among tribes because access to land was closely linked to a tribe's survival."

Now who is speaking "utter nonsense?' You people need to be educated in so many ways. And yes, we stole the land from the Indians, in the name of Manifest Destiny." We essentially made refugees out the ones that survived by placing them on reservations. That's the part of history, you don't want to hear and accept. I'll betcha you guys are two good ol' boy rednecks who love "amurica."

Had any of you ever really read those history books , you would have learned that all through out the history of mans travels , he has warred , conquered , expanded his travels and explored again , He has also assimilated to the conquerors , he has changed his own culture to accept the will of the victors , name the war of governments , of the religions ; the warriors , The defeated assimilated to the victors , or at least to the greater masses .

America didn't just happen by dreams or by native "visions , it was carved from the raw wilds of the forest ,out of the stone granite ridges , it was built by hand ! AND It is time ! It is time for the indigenous to assimilate ! For the cultures to assimilate . If they cannot and wish to survive in the shadows of the past , to blame their bitter uninvolved and self inflicted poverty , drug addictions and alcoholism on everybody else but themselves , then so be it !Then natives , or whoever , will continue to "sit in their own stink " , while the vast majority of a major melting pot of Americans DO assimilate !

I feel no compassion for a people who refuse to engage in reality ,who let their children suffer in todays America , BY CHOICE ! And , the cost of that decision is to be always paid by the children .That decision is the same with ANY minority who refuses to engage in America's progress .

ahorseback: Why don't you go live on a reservation and tell me what is like? Today, many Indians have casinos. They may have lost battles, but now they are taking white man's money. Many have pulled themselves up by their bootstraps. I agree with you as to why wars are waged. And it is exactly to protect territory and/or gain new territory, in the name of some higher spirit, and to spread the gene pool. I wrote a hub about it.

Would you have expected settlers to agree with, or even recognize the differences in land ownership? Of a culture nearly 100% foreign to them? They had the answer already - no one owned it - would you expect them to question that evaluation when it was so obviously correct, and question it to the point that they could no longer live themselves?

Again, interesting. Indians didn't own land, but Europeans took Indian land. I trust you understand the dichotomy here?

And no, the tribes living in the 1700's were NOT the first ones there. Other's preceded them by some 10,000 years and, just as you say, fought amongst each other, "taking" and occupying what once belonged to others. That they all carried the blood of Asians is insufficient to say that one tribe didn't take what belonged to another.

It is also interesting that, somehow, Indians "owned" all the land in the Western Hemisphere. Whether they lived on it or not, used or even ever walked that land, they "owned" it. By that reasoning Africans owned the entire world and the Indians "stole" the western hemisphere from them.

I have to give a testimony right here. For the first time in my adult life, my credit cards are all paid. I have retirement accounts that I don't have to touch because my teacher's retirement and disability come out to more than I would earn if I were working.

After I left Hughes Aircraft because I wanted to help kids, my money started getting funny. I had to use credit cards to pay mortgage, my car kept breaking down, etc. At one point I owed $23,000 in credit cards. In January this year I was down to $17000. Today I will pay the balance of $8750 which is only possible through the grace of God.

I have not received reparations but I have received a spirit of discernment and forgiveness. Bitterness will make you ill. It is often impossible for use to have someone ask for our forgiveness, especially when they feel they have done nothing wrong.

Genesis 50:20 "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives."

Joseph's brothers sold him to the Egyptians. The deed was awful but Joseph was able to save the lives of many during the drought. He was a wise leader. He did not hate his brothers for what they did.

I watched a documentary a while back and they had an old Spanish map of the U.S. A large percentage of the western portion was labeled Aztec ancestral land. It appears the Aztecs used to live all the way up in to the northwest here in America. I wondered if the 'native americans' probably pushed them off the land before the European settlers came and did the same.

Nearly all land not "owned" by government is improved in some method. It may have crops, it may have livestock, it may have a road or it may have a cabin, but there is almost always some form of improvement.

Plus, of course, we can now just ask if it is owned and get an answer. When the settlers came west they went for miles and miles without seeing anyone at all - who would they ask?

Your apologist rhetoric is astounding. You would have us believe that these squatters arrived on the East Coast and then miraculously found themselves standing in an open prairie somewhere west of the Mississippi. Long before the abomination of Jamestown, and since the arrival of Columbus, the Europeans knew this continent was inhabited. But the ones who came were greedy and lazy, and they were inebriated at the thought of getting "free land"; land that they would not have to work and pay for.

They were too shiftless to make it in the Old World. It is another great lie that the good Europeans came here to escape religious persecution. They came to escape the responsibility of having to work for a living, and to pay their own way. They did not come for religious freedom, but for the freedom to rape,plunder, and steal. Of course they understood that they might have to kill some of my people in order to get it, but greed can embolden even a coward.

No, unlike many respondents here, I have been a student of history since I was a child, as I had the benefit of two parents who had the good sense to take me to the public library, and to teach me what they knew I wouldn't be taught in the public school system. And so it appears you have a lot of catching up to do. The best and the brightest Europeans stayed in Europa. They were successful in their own countries. They didn't need to come here to murder and steal in order to survive. Nor were they so evil, lazy, and greedy that they needed to own slaves.

No. They taught me how to think for myself, and how to seek the truth through study and research. They taught me the difference between good and evil, and the deceptive ways of a racist system. Thankfully, they prevented the public school system from colonizing my mind with lies and omissions about America and my heritage. What kind of a father or mother would neglect to warn their child about a rabid dog?

As a professional musician it has always troubled me to see minorities singing the Star Spangled Banner at sporting events and other functions.It reveals that the minds of these people have been completely colonized, and that they had very little guidance as a child. In order for the average white American to understand what I mean, they must imagine a Jew publicly singing a Nazi anthem. But it is really not a good comparison, because the Nazis only oppressed the Jews for less than ten years, and they only killed 6 million. When we consider that the Europeans killed over 100 million of my people, and also killed and enslaved millions of Africans, we understand that it is even worse for an African or Indigenous to sing songs that glorify America.Yes, it is far worse than an Orthodox Jew glorifying the Nazis. It is another good example of Stockholm Syndrome.

My parents gave me access to all the information I could ever want and would discuss, if questions came up, but always sought not to imprint their beliefs on any of their children. I've always had the utmost respect for that. More so now that I see how deeply a parent can damage a child for life with their prejudiced firmly embedded in their upbringing.

My parents were probably trying to save our lives OR they may not have known a lot about slavery themselves. When I was a child, Black people could not go to the white libraries. The one Black library was about the size of a 2 bedroom house

WB has to be younger than me or didn't live in the Jim Crow South. Embarassing but true - the most I learned about slavery in Little Rock was as a result of Black activism, NAACP, Urban League, etc.

We've come a long way. I remember going into the drug store as a child and being confused why they wanted to wait on me ahead of an elderly woman. I refused to go first and they got mad. When I got older I realized it was because she was black. My parents made no differentiation in their establishment or in our home so I was oblivious. Although I was aware that many leaders in the white community disliked us quite intensely.

I remember Jane Nemec, a white girl in my homeroom, who went out of her way to smile at me and try to make me feel at ease in homeroom. She would speak. It was obvious to me that she was not a racist and wanted me to know that she was different.

Well, you keep on believing that nonsense. I am not surprised that anyone who supports Manifest Destiny would not hesitate to insult my Mother and Father. There is a great difference between prejudice and racism, and knowing who your enemies are. And I can't imagine any white American would expect a Jew to honor Nazi traditions, yet they expect us to honor the traditions of a people who have raped, murdered, dispossessed, and disenfranchised our people for over 500 years; far longer than the Jews suffered under the Nazis. And that is what the white American cannot seem to understand. I do not have to be prejudiced or racist in order to respect myself and my heritage. Nor does my refusal to embrace my oppressors and join their "club" indicate racism or prejudice either. It appears you are confused about the issue. As a professional, unless a group is overtly racist, I do not discriminate when it comes to who I work for. I often do shows where all I play is Country Music for a room full of rednecks. And guess what? When I sing Country I sound just like a redneck! I often laugh to myself when people come up and compliment me on my performance. Sometimes I feel like I am living out a version of the Mel Brooks Movie "Blazing Saddles".

Of course, I don't do any of the patriotic songs in my performances, and no one ever asks me to. However, I have been asked many times to sing the Hank Williams song "Kaw-lija" many times, but I refuse to sing such a derogatory song, as it would be the equivalent of wearing black face. You see, with racism comes oppression. How I feel is not oppressing anyone. I am not preventing anyone from getting a job, or doing anything they want to do. I am not trying to prevent white people from doing anything at all, other than to stop expecting me to betray my ancestors and be the Indigenous equivalent of an Uncle Tom. In fact I believe I am the first to coin the term : "Uncle Tonto". And so, if you ever hear that term in the future, you will have the satisfaction of knowing that you had the privilege of conversing with the author of the term.

You must understand that assimilation is the last phase of a system of genocide. There are many of us here who are not about to let that happen. If white America wants to assimilate, then let them assimilate with us. Let them embrace the true history of America, and then change the name; let them embrace our way of thinking, and our traditions; let them tear down the grotesque monuments of evil and replace them with monuments of peace; let them erase their own cultural identity.

It is not uncommon for the arrogant European to believe that his way is the best way. This is why Manifest Destiny is such a popular flavor among the good white folks. In the perverse mind, Manifest Destiny mitigates murder,sadism, pedophilia, kidnapping, and thievery. All of these were key components of the antebellum, and the genocide of my people. I am as happy as a prisoner of war could possibly be. Furthermore, happiness is for children. The "pursuit of happiness" that the squatters have championed and cultivated in the minds of the weak is one of the greatest and most insidious tools of oppression. Mandela and many others forsake the pursuit of personal happiness for the greater good of mankind.

They did not, and have not lived their lives as cowards. Yes, my life was easier and less stressful when I concerned my self with satisfying my carnal desires, and when I spent my time engaged in trivial pursuits, but today I have more self-respect, and I know that I will not die a coward ; a coward who was afraid to even speak out against this great evil that continues to reach out and destroy the lives of millions of children, just like it has recently touched the city of Flint Michigan. Racism and materialism go hand in hand, and they both spring from the same corrupted well. And as far as western civilization is concerned, the origins of the abomination of Christian materialism as manifested today can be traced back to Constantine the Great , whereas the origins of racism can be seen in the papal bull "Dum Diversas" which was issued by the miscreant Pope Nicholas V in 1452.

What I find most remarkable is that all of you are going to die one day. You will not take any of your money or possessions with you. And your children will only follow you to the grave. And so I will paraphrase Jesus: "What does it profit an American to defile the spirit of my ancestors, to continue this racist oppression of over 500 years, to kill the Afghan, the Syrian, and the Palestinian, to gain the whole world, and then to lose their own soul?"

Don't be silly. You have not offended me. I think you have a very healthy way of viewing things. Open and honest without bitterness at the past. You are old enough to have been personally touched by things we all wish weren't a part of our history. I simply see no reason to attempt to converse with those I perceive to be stunted with hatred who have not shared any experience they have personally had which would warrant such.

Using our collective past as justification for current hatred of any group of people is not something I choose to give any credence to.

I'm not overly familiar with the term race baiting but I'm getting acquainted with it reading some of the posts here. That's funny that Michelle Obama's honest comment would be classified as such.

Walking away to gain perspective and digest some ideas which, at first blush, cause a negative reaction is always a good idea but this topic, like others, can cause some people to tumble into hatred with no desire to rise above it.

As I read this I had an "aha" moment. Slaves were kidnapped from Africa and brought to a foreign land and their history was not mentioned.

What was done to Native Americans was on their own lands. Nothing is taught in school to say that their land was taken away from them. I didn't learn anything about that in school. I don't know what is taught now. For Native Americans to sit in school and be taught that Columbus discovered America and not mention the harm done to Native Americans must be hard to sit and listen to.

No, of course we were not taught about atrocities regarding indiginous people, none of us were. What were we watching on television? Westerns, where the last thing we came away with was sympathy for the tribes. We got the Lone Ranger and How the West was Won.

It was only the courage associated with revisionist Cinema that appeared in the late 1960s and early 1970's that was just beginning to tell the story from a point of view of the 'other side'. Film like ' Little Big Man' released in 1970, starring Dustin Hoffman comes to mind. I liked the Billy Jack movies, beginning roughly in the same period, as well.

It is not much different today. That is why Jan Brewer and the racist government of Arizona banned Mexican American Studies from the Tuscon public school system. But three years later a federal court order reinstated the program.They do not want the people to know the true history of America. They also understand that what is taught in the public school system carries a certain legitimacy and stamp of approval that greatly influences the perspective of children. Even though children can do independent studies at home, as I did as a child, the racists understand that most will not pursue such a course.

Furthermore, the average adult, regardless of race, gets busy with making a living and raising a family after high school or college, and so the study of history goes by the wayside. What we end up with is a great majority of people who have a limited, and a one sided Eurocentric understanding of American History. This serves to protect the staus quo. This lack of understanding also helps to promote the racist notion that minorities have a victim mentality, and are the cause of their own misery, when nothing could be further from the truth. Without knowing the history of institutionalized racism, it is easy to see how even minorities can be deceived by such propaganda.

You will also notice that many contributions made by Africans have also been left out of the history books in the public school system. Here is a video you will find interesting if you are not already aware. Many scientists now believe that the Egyptian Sphinx is the representation of a great black African leader that could have been either male or female. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpuGTr0p9dM

What the heck is "Mexican American Studies"? Is that like black history month, where the achievements of only people of a certain race are learned, except it is about only Americans that were born in Mexico? Why in the world would Americans ever study such a thing - it doesn't matter where you born, just that you are an American, if the study is American History rather than world history.

Apparently you are one of the last to find out. But "America" means the entire continent, not just the United States. And for the sake of argument, if we choose to accept the concept of 'America", then everyone south of the border is also an American. The term "Mexican American" apparently troubles you, but you don't seem troubled by the fact that the European version of American History has predominantly been taught in public schools. Obviously because you feel the European is superior. Of course that would make you a ____. I'll let you fill in the blank.

I don't identify with "American", "America", or any such nonsense. The term American is used, if you subscribe to it, because the entire continent was named America by the European. Thus I use the terms on occasion simply to expedite a conversation. Many people find it necessary to use such terms so that a majority will know what they are talking about. The term "Mexican American Studies" was obviously used to identify the study of American History that deals with the Indigenous people and the Mestizos of the Southwestern United States, as well as Mexico I assume.

Your apparent lack of understanding as to why such studies as MAS are necessary appears to be disingenuous. It is hard to believe that having studied History in high school ( I assume people in Idaho also go to high school) you would understand the Eurocentric nature of the public school system. If more than a one-sided version of American History was taught in public schools, then MAS would not be necessary, and things like Black History Month would not be as necessary as well. And from your obvious lack of knowledge about the Indigenous struggle on this continent, I am confident that you learned very little about Indigenous culture in high school. And of course this all reminds of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

I worked with a very talented black singer when I was living in New York during the 80's who grew up in Harlem. He explained to me one day why the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was offensive to him. I was quite impressed with his viewpoint. He explained that if the U.S. Constitution applied to him as a black man then there should be no need for a special law to protect his rights when the white man was protected by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Of course, he understood why the law was necessary, but his point was that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 only highlights the hypocrisy of America. Because the truth is that the United States is a nation founded by white people, for white people. If the African or the Indigenous truly had any stake in America, they would not still be struggling for justice, and against racism over 500 years later.

Wilderness, I don't think you understand the purpose of those courses of study. When I was a child, there was no mention or even a picture of anyone that wasn't white. It didn't dawn on Black kids in Arkansas, "Have Black people made contributions?" "Why are there no mention of Black people?" I only saw Native Americans, called Indians at the time, on television.

All I knew was that white people hated us. I knew they called us names, made us sit on the back of the bus, go to the back door for whatever we needed, and would not let us use "white" bathrooms and water fountains. You were not alive at the time and can't comprehend what was done. I undertand that. When you question the purpose the way you do, it makes it seems as you are being sarcastic or agreein, "Yes, you have no value."

This is the part where I saying reading/listening and understanding what is being said. You don't have to defend yourself. You were not there. When I explain it, do not think I am blaming you. You were not there but this was REAL and Hurtful. More importantly, it happened to ME!

I have always felt that setting a special month to study only Black achievements diminished any contributions made, as if those achievements were not up to the standards of white achievements so whites had to be excluded in order to find anything worthy of study - something that could have been eliminated had they just been included as people instead of Black people. That instead of combining all peoples, it drew a clear line separating the two races and thereby encouraged racism. But that's just me - perhaps it DID make black children feel better about their race to be separated as far as possible from the white race. You will not, however, convince me that it does add to racism, albeit in a subtle manner many children won't pick up on even as they absorb it and that it should be relegated to the annals of historical mistakes because of that.

But I wasn't old enough to see it? Thank you for the compliment, but my first real job after graduating college was in a small manufacturing plant (in a fortune 500 company) in the heartland of Virginia. The bathrooms had been "de-segregated" shortly before my arrival and it never DID get a women's bathroom. I was instructed to stay out of this bank of seating in the only theater around and to never enter that bar - they were reserved for blacks only. Yeah, I'm old enough.

When everything is all screwed up, it is hard for people to figure out how to solve it. Thus we have Republicans and Democrats .... and Green Party and _______.

I personally learned more in a Black school, building my foundation, than I did when I went to high schools. Many of the teachers were racist and did not help or encourage Black kids. Ms. Taylor came to me and wanted to see me the next morning before school. I went. She asked, "How old are you?" I said, "14." Her jaw dropped. She said, "You look older than anybody in the room." She was literally shocked. She suggested that I "change my hairstyle!" That was it!!!!

I didn't realize it until Soledad O'Brien did her CNN series, "Black in America" but there were low expectations for all of us in an integrated environment. Kenneth Allen, when interview by Soledad O'Brien, said the counselor told him he should be an undertaker.

Many Black kids in the inner city today, do not write as well as I did in 4th grade. I don't blame them but it is reality.

"When everything is all screwed up, it is hard for people to figure out how to solve it."

You're right, and we haven't done a stellar job. But this one, the black history, is so obvious - to me - but I can't help but think it was carefully considered and put into place because it is racist. It is another blow at blacks and another reason for whites to dislike them. Absolutely disgusting if that is indeed how it went down.

Yes, the truth should be told in history books and everywhere else. Without attempts to whitewash it, without attempts to change it, no matter how subtly. We see attempts to say the holocaust never happened; this is no different.

There has been a big effort lately (past decade or so), a concerted effort to change our history, and it doesn't stop with painting over slavery and what was done to slaves and blacks after the civil war. Most often a political ploy to push political agendas, but also an organized effort to actually change what happened into something else. We allow it to continue at our peril.

I was reading the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders on Wikipedia. In the history section it says..."The initial impetus for developing a classification of mental disorders in the United States was the need to collect statistical information. The first official attempt was the 1840 census, which used a single category: "idiocy/insanity". Three years later, the American Statistical Association made an official protest to the U.S. House of Representatives, stating that "the most glaring and remarkable errors are found in the statements respecting nosology, prevalence of insanity, blindness, deafness, and dumbness, among the people of this nation", pointing out that in many towns African-Americans were all marked as insane, and calling the statistics essentially useless."

I would say that was totally racist. Not a glaring error on someone's part. I'll be shaking my head for 10 minutes...

THANK YOU Colorful! I've been looking at censuses while doing my tree. Some people were classified as idiots and I was wondering WHY! They had asylums and prisons. I would love to understand more about the things that were happening.

I looked at many death certificates. People were dying from things that really don't seem like a big deal. Many were dying from venereal diseases or so the death certificates stated.

And what reeelly complicated the situation was when the slave masters raped and impregnated the slaves.

Last year I discovered that Mary Boykin Chestnut was the wife of James(?) Chestnut who owned slaves. He didn't know that she secretly was anti-slavery. I was able to put some of my family tree together by looking at the slave owner's inventory list. Mary Chestnut wrote about how wives were seeing the baby slaves favor the masters.

The offshoot courses was created because the contributions of ethnic groups were not included in the AMERICAN story and that is inaccurate. If AMERICAN history when I was taught had been more inclusive........ There is more to it than the fact that George Washington cut down the cherry tree.

So why don't we include them in AMERICAN history? We don't even need to specify the race or national origin - only that they were AMERICAN. Although...if the history of the person is studied, national origin should be included. And a simple picture will give race without ever making a point of race as if it is important in any way. Let it be that great black people are no different that any other great people instead of insinuating that we have to search really hard, and eliminate other races from the competition, before we find any great black people.