===============================================================
From: Stephen Kraus
------------------------------------------------------
Oh please....comparing the IRS to the mafia, tell me the last time the IRS
buried someone in a cornfield.

===============================================================
From: Aaron welch
------------------------------------------------------
At least you know where you stand with the mafia. The IRS tax laws are so
convoluted that you can be audited at any time just because. Plus, once
you are in that cornfield they stop coming after you. The IRS goes after
your family. I want a consumption based tax and production based
incentives to bring industry back to the US.
-AW

===============================================================
From: Rod
------------------------------------------------------
Just bring back tariffs.
To the bitcoin crowd if it is currency it came be taxed.
To the IRS if you think it is property and not currency how can you tax it?
On Wed, 26 Mar 2014 08:54:17 -0400, Aaron welch
wrote:

===============================================================
From: William Roush
------------------------------------------------------
Capital gains tax.
Though that will rock for those that bought back when it was high and
decided to cut their losses, tax deduction.
I'd complain that it kills the promotion of Bitcoin through small token
trades (though people typically aren't going to put down that they have
$5 in capital gains this year) -- but the deflationary nature of it and
hoarding has done that already.
William Roush
william.roush@roushtech.net
423-463-0592
http://www.roushtech.net/blog/

===============================================================
From: William Roush
------------------------------------------------------
Consumption based taxes are extremely regressive, you take most of the
tax burden from the richest in the country and distribute it between the
lower and middle class.
Due to that that, the last proposal for a tax like this was that we'd
have a 23% tax-inclusive federal sales tax + our 9% state... on

===============================================================
From: DaWorm
------------------------------------------------------
They don't have to be. Exclusions on such things as food items and
clothing can be made, as well as the so-called "refunds" where everyone
gets a refund equal to the tax burden of the poverty line or some other
arbitrary number.
Also, I can make the argument that consumption taxes are not regressive.
It goes something like this:
Let's say I make $50,000 and there is a 10% national tax. I spend all of
my money every year, so I pay $5,000 a year in taxes. So my effective rate
is equal to the nominal rate of 10%.
Let's say you make $500,000, and only spend $300,000 every year, so you
only pay $30,000 in taxes. That would make your effective tax rate only
6%. So this must be regressive, correct?
But, of what use has the remaining $200,000 been put? If it wasn't spent,
it did you no good. It wasn't used to consume any resources. Let's
further say that you invest that money, which contributes to the economy.
And even further, you make a nice 10% return on that $200,000 so that now
you have $220,000.
To make the math simpler (I don't want to do compound interest), let's now
say you retire, and you begin spending your savings. So you eventually
spend that $220,000 and pay $22,000 in tax on it (again, ignoring compound
interest, with which you would continue earning more on the unspent balance
each year, resulting in a higher amount of tax paid).
For your initial $500,000 in earnings, you have now paid $55,000 in taxes,
which is an 11% tax rate. Not regressive, but progressive!
Of course this assumes that you will eventually spend all that you've
earned. For an individual, that may not be true, but that money will be
left to heirs (assuming estate taxes don't give most of it to the
government), and they will spend it, or their heirs, and so on. That's
what makes governments (and business) different than individuals, they last
much longer than a lifetime. In the long run, the government will get its
money.
Jeff.

===============================================================
From: Joseph Simoneau
------------------------------------------------------
The math is just plain wrong because raw numbers discount the actual value
of money (purchasing power) at different income levels.
If you take home a billion a year (or any substantially huge quantity), you
can lose a Benjamin on the street and not care.
If you are in a situation where your income (counting government
assistance, charity, etc. as income) can cover your minimum expenses but
let's you save zero dollars, losing that $100 bill could break you.
In terms of how it actually affects people, X% of a huge salary is less
than the same X% of a small salary.
Consumption based taxes, flat tax rates, etc. are evil.
-js

===============================================================
From: William Roush
------------------------------------------------------
// On 3/26/2014 11:49 AM, DaWorm wrote:
/
Very/ few people that have hundreds of millions of dollars plan to spend
it all out by the time they die, most of them continue to pass it on and
reinvest it, the wealth is never put towards taxable items at the rate
it'll be created. Inflate your example by about a thousand times and
we'll start talking about the realism of making Fair Tax a progressive
tax via mental gymnastics and not by observation of how people treat
their money.
You think a government can run on a bunch of "IOUs" to be paid out when
someone in the family line botches their inheritance?
It's why a flat tax

===============================================================
From: William Roush
------------------------------------------------------
It's funny because every time I hear this it's from people that haven't
seen that the IRS has been trying to simplify their tax code, but /it
will kill jobs/ says TurboTax, and it never gets done.
But that's the IRS' fault.
William Roush
william.roush@roushtech.net
423-463-0592
http://www.roushtech.net/blog/

===============================================================
From: Stephen Kraus
------------------------------------------------------
They'll tax it when you convert to USD.
Which if you want Bitcoin to actually have value, you have to be able to
convert it into a useable currency. That is the only reason Bitcoin is
accepted by groups like Tigerdirect.
And as for the mob, their code of honor largely only applied to 'made men'
and were fucking awful to anyone else.
The IRS is not the problem, and if you EVER want a functional government,
taxes are going to exist.

===============================================================
From: DaWorm
------------------------------------------------------
Very few people have hundreds of millions of dollars, as well. And again,
of what possible use is unspent income? Warren Buffet may be "worth"
billions of dollars, but he doesn't have that money in gold bricks in the
basement of his house. He buys and creates businesses that in turn help
drive the economy, and in turn generate more income for more people to be
taxed. Or it is invested in stocks and bonds. You discount the value of
this type investment. It helps the economy in ways taxes never could.
Also, with a flat tax, things like tax shelters cease to exist.
Corporations holding overseas income overseas to avoid taxation cease to
exist.

===============================================================
From: William Roush
------------------------------------------------------
Not nearly at the rate your suggesting they up it to.
William Roush
william.roush@roushtech.net
423-463-0592
http://www.roushtech.net/blog/

===============================================================
From: William Roush
------------------------------------------------------
Sourced earlier in the thread, it's all over various news posts too.
Like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olWBnVxG

===============================================================
From: Garrett Gaston
------------------------------------------------------
Taxation is theft=2C no matter the amount=2C no matter how rich the victim.=
I can only hope the cryptocurrency wipes the state from the earth. Wait=2C=
isn't this a Linux list?

===============================================================
From: Chad Smith
------------------------------------------------------
Taxation is not theft.
Do you drive on Government Owned roads? Are you protected by the Military?
Are you protected by police? ... Then you are receiving a service for
your payment.
The amount of taxes can be theft - but the concept of taxes itself is not.
*- Chad W. Smith*

===============================================================
From: Stephen Kraus
------------------------------------------------------
Taxation is not theft. Taxation is expecting that you have to pay into a
system that you take advantage of every day either through the use of
public roads, fire departments, police enforcement, sewage systems,
scientific achievements paid for by government grants, etc. Social
contracts oblige you to pay taxes to have access to the benefits that are
common to all, whether you ever utilize them or not.
Its not theft. It might FEEL like theft to you because you are required to
do so, but chances are you gain more back in tax returns than you pay net
into taxes over your lifetime.
Ironically, the 'taxes are theft' is pushed heavily by the wealthy, the
ones who largely are privy to loopholes that allow them to avoid taxes to
begin with.

===============================================================
From: "Alex Smith (K4RNT)"
------------------------------------------------------
I hope you don't plan on calling 911 if a family member has a heart attack,
or plan on fighting your own house fire if something were to happen.
Really, are we *really* arguing about this?!?!?
" ' With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured,
the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all
irrevocably.' Those words were uttered by Judge Aaron Satie as wisdom and
warning... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on we=E2=80=99re all
damaged." - Jean-Luc Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie, Star Trek: TNG
episode "The Drumhead"
- Alex Smith
- Dulles Technology Corridor (Chantilly/Ashburn/Dulles), Virginia USA
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 7:02 PM, Garrett Gaston wrot=
e:

===============================================================
From: Rod
------------------------------------------------------
Those of us who have lived in the third world under understand taxation is
the price patriots pay to live in a civilized society.
http://youtu.be/7QDv4sYwjO0
On Wed, 26 Mar 2014 19:02:11 -0400, Garrett Gaston
wrote:

===============================================================
From: Stephen Kraus
------------------------------------------------------
Nah, I don't really feel like getting into a debate on objectivism and
Randians. Thanks thought
(Its still not theft ;)

===============================================================
From: Lynn Dixon
------------------------------------------------------
Wait, I thought we were arguing about Bitcoins!!!!! Let's get this back on
track....
When can I pay my taxes with Bitcoins? :-)