Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this. The first four men-the poorest-would pay nothing; The fifth would pay $1; the sixth would pay $3; the seventh $7; the eighth $12; The ninth $18. The tenth man-the richest-would pay $59. That's what they decided to do.

The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement-until one day, the owner threw them a curve."Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20. So now dinner for the ten only cost $80. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six-the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share? The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33.

But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would end up being *paid* to eat their meal. So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay. And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the seventh paid $5, the eighth paid $9, the ninth paid $12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of $52 instead of his earlier $59. Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free.

But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. I only got a dollar out of the $20,declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth. But he got $7! Yeah, that's right, exclaimed the fifth man. I only saved a dollar, too.
It's unfair that he got seven times more than me! That's true! shouted the seventh man. Why should he get $7 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks! Wait a minute, yelled the first four men in unison. We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night he didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They were $52 short! And that, boys and girls, journalists, college instructors, and Dem partizans in Congress is how the tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction.

Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore.

Wally in the Natti~~not rich but hates class envy

SpiderMan

01-29-2003, 05:09 PM

Wally, I love it. Did you write this, and if so can I use it? If not, can you provide the proper credit?

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this. The first four men-the poorest-would pay nothing; The fifth would pay $1; the sixth would pay $3; the seventh $7; the eighth $12; The ninth $18. The tenth man-the richest-would pay $59. That's what they decided to do.

The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement-until one day, the owner threw them a curve."Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20. So now dinner for the ten only cost $80. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six-the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share? The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33.

But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would end up being *paid* to eat their meal. So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay. And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the seventh paid $5, the eighth paid $9, the ninth paid $12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of $52 instead of his earlier $59. Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free.

But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. I only got a dollar out of the $20,declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth. But he got $7! Yeah, that's right, exclaimed the fifth man. I only saved a dollar, too.
It's unfair that he got seven times more than me! That's true! shouted the seventh man. Why should he get $7 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks! Wait a minute, yelled the first four men in unison. We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night he didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They were $52 short! And that, boys and girls, journalists, college instructors, and Dem partizans in Congress is how the tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction.

Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore.

Wally in the Natti~~not rich but hates class envy

<hr /></blockquote>

nAz

01-29-2003, 06:18 PM

LOL thats pretty good

The problem I see with this is

The middle class i think actually pays a bigger percentage of it's income in taxes then do the poor and rich.

The wealthy can better afford to pay a higher share, but because of their tax status they actually get more deductions that the middle class doesn't get and end up paying a substantially less percentage of their income in taxes.

The poor should never have to pay taxes period.

The middle class is getting poorer all the time, and in fact is basically bankrupt. If your total debts are more then your yearly income then you are essentially bankrupt.

Government probably runs financially off the middle class and if the economy crashes, the middle class goes belly up, and the funds for government programs ceases to exist.

The wealthy will still be exactly that no matter what happens.

Leviathan

01-29-2003, 06:50 PM

Greetings, Wally: The import of your post is that rich folks don't have enough money and that poor people do. This idea seems odd--especially to poor people, whose intelligence is clouded by class envy--but it's the cornerstone of Mr. Bush's economic policy, so we can be sure that it makes sense to unbiased thinkers.--D.M.

Sid_Vicious

01-29-2003, 11:15 PM

AMEN!

Rich R.

01-30-2003, 05:17 AM

I'm sick and tired of hearing about "tax cuts for Rich".
Every year it is the same thing, "Tax cuts for Rich, tax cuts for Rich."
Then comes tax time, and I end up paying more taxes.
I'm still waiting for my "tax cut." /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

eg8r

01-30-2003, 07:13 AM

Naz, we disagree once more... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
The wealthy can better afford to pay a higher share.....The poor should never have to pay taxes period <hr /></blockquote>Just in case some people are not thinking clear, this is stealing. Similar to what Robin Hood was doing. Why in the world should the rich (99% have put in the hours and time to get that way), who have earned their money, give handouts to the poor who sit on their a$$ and don't get a job. What about all the single mothers in their teens and early twenties who continue to have babies (with different men), why should they receive anything? Sure they cannot afford to get a baby sitter. Well in most cases the rest of their deadbeat family can watch the kids and the mother can go to work.

I am sure, with this mentality, you also feel that the smart kids in class should answer 59% of the questions for the less smart kids in class. Geesh, the smart ones will be smart any ways, so they should just give some answers to help out the less smart.

Just a thought for you, (this comes from Boortz, poorly paraphrased) the tax system should be correctly re-labled as INCOME REDISTRIBUTION. The money is being redistributed back to the poor (stealing). In any other part of your life, this is considered illeagal. If you were to try this on your own you would be arrested and thrown in jail (only to get a pardon from Clinton). As an example, why don't you go to the gas station today and fill up and drive off. Surely the gas station owner can afford to give away some gas, and you might as well be the one to receive it.

One clarification of my definitions...Decision making skills are used only in the context of furthering ones wealth. Poor people make very BAD decisions over and over (one shining example is the lottery. If you are playing the lottery and cannot afford to pay your debt you are an idiot.), while rich people continue to make GOOD decision over and over. If you cannot get past the idea that rich people obtained their wealth by luck or inheritance then you need to do a little more research. Less than 1% of the considered rich have received their wealth this way. The rest have worked for their money and have done all the correct things in life in order to further their wealth.

If a mother is on welfare and she goes out and gets pregnant, then I think all welfare should be stopped. Some say it was an 'accident'. Well what right does she have having sex knowing the chance she might get pregnant and force others to continue paying for her bad decisions.

If you have a problem with rich people enjoying the same percentage tax relief as you might receive, only on the merits that their savings would be in greater amount than yours, then why don't you do something about it. Go out and further your skills and push yourself forward. Maybe you could work and extra job instead of sitting around watching TV. It is quite easy to shine amongst your peers because most are unwilling to put the effort forth. Why are you sitting around crying how poor you are and you do not do something about it.

As for myself, I am not rich, but I am doing fine. Paying off my own college debt and helping to support myself and my wife. I work 40 hrs/wk at my one job and I work another 40 or so when I get home working for my own company. It takes time and dedication to EARN money, however it only takes a whining idiot to cry poor and get some government relief.

eg8r &lt;~~~Not rich but on my way.

Ward

01-30-2003, 07:57 AM

Ed

What about the little kids that are born into the welfare environment, do we just throw them away? I think in most case people are a product of their environment.

I for one will eagerly pay higher taxes I just ask my government to have a social conscience. I think this country is getting away from that.

Later
Ward

Gayle in MD

01-30-2003, 10:08 AM

Boy, are you living in the same world as the rest of us??? Wake up kiddo. The rich in this country are not the angels you make them out to be. They get rich by exploiting other people, breaking the tax laws through crooked accounting methods, and basically stealing from the middle class and upper middle class that didn't have the boost they got from their parents who got rich by doing the same things. Your 1% scenario is not true. There are very few self-made people with money compared to the ones that came from money. Just look at Enron. That's nothing new friend, that has been going on for generations. It's disgusting, all those fat cats robbing their employees of their retirement money, and living in mansions. The government should have confiscated every penny they had, and liquidated their assets, and given all the cash to their middle class employees. Corruption is what is killing our country. Insider trading is nothing new. The rich have robbed the middle class, and upper middle class, since the beginning of time. The poor don't have anything for anyone to steal. Have you ever seen the figures on what each senator and congressman costs us by the time they finally croak? How many of them do you think really go into politics to help this country? It's not what you know, it's who you know, and that's why they get into it, to have the oppurtunity to be financially showered by special interest millionaires.
And what about the men who father these welfare kids? We wouldn't be paying for them in the first place if THEY took care of their responsibilities. Do you know how many fathers have kids and then walk away and never look back? But you are ready to just let them off the hook completely??? To top it all off, we got a cowboy in the White House, who BTW was forced on us by the Supreme Court, who can't even "SAY" NUCLEAR, and he's the guy whose going to make the decision to push the red button! Your right about one thing, the rich do make decisions over and over, but the decision is to rob, steal and exploit just the way daddy did.
Gayle in Md., /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

cheesemouse

01-30-2003, 10:44 AM

Hear...hear...

Rich R.

01-30-2003, 10:57 AM

Stop holding back Gayle. Tell us how you really feel. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Gayle in MD

01-30-2003, 11:21 AM

LOL, Rich, guess I had too much coffee this morning! LMAO! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Leviathan

01-30-2003, 11:46 AM

I agree, Gayle: that needed saying. The country isn't run by welfare recipients; it's run by predatory fatcats who control social and economic policy for their own benefit. And when social and economic policies make life harder for middle-income people, as they often do, who do most middle-income people blame for their troubles? Why, they blame poor folks--as if the poor had the power to control government policy! Boy, is that smart, or what?--D.M.

mickey2

01-30-2003, 01:50 PM

While the story was somewhat fun to read it imo draws a wrong picture.
First of all I have to point out that I am not too familiar with the tax system of the USA.
While it might be true that the richest 1 percent of taxpayers paid ~25 percent, they received 18 percent of the income. This only shows, that concentration of taxes mainly reflects the concentration of income. The reason for the difference paid tax and income comes because of tax progression.
It is important to keep in mind that rich people are able to change the way they receive much of their income, enabling them legally to reduce, defer or avoid taxable income. This is even more true for big companies!
Roosevelt once said:"The man of great wealth owes a peculiar obligation to the state, because he derives special advantage from the mere existence of government".

Just my opinion
mickey2

Wally_in_Cincy

01-30-2003, 01:57 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Wally, I love it. Did you write this, and if so can I use it? If not, can you provide the proper credit?

SpiderMan (also not rich)

<hr /></blockquote>

Don't know the origin. Somebody emailed it to a local talk show host and he posted it on the staion's website

<font color="blue"> I think everybody should pay some income taxes. That way they have an interest in how the money is being spent.

Having said that, I think the poor right now pay more than their share of taxes. As soon as politicians need money they raise tax on gas, beer, and cigarettes. That's totally regressive taxation.</font color>

The middle class is getting poorer all the time, and in fact is basically bankrupt.

<font color="blue">How many of your middle class friends are bankrupt? This country is so full of opportunity if you can't make it it's your fault. </font color>

If your total debts are more then your yearly income then you are essentially bankrupt.

Government probably runs financially off the middle class and if the economy crashes, the middle class goes belly up, and the funds for government programs ceases to exist.

The wealthy will still be exactly that no matter what happens.
<font color="blue">Can't argue with that. If you tax them too much like in the 70's with the 70% top rate they'll move their money into tax shelters. Then Uncle Sam gets nothing. </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

Wally_in_Cincy

01-30-2003, 02:15 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ward:</font><hr> Ed

What about the little kids that are born into the welfare environment, do we just throw them away?

<font color="blue">Orphanages. </font color>

I think in most case people are a product of their environment.

I for one will eagerly pay higher taxes I just ask my government to have a social conscience.

<font color="blue">But Ward, they just waste it. You'd be much better off getting a tax cut and giving the extra money to your church. </font color>

I think this country is getting away from that.

<font color="blue">The founders did not intend for the govt. to be the peoples nanny.

<font color="blue"> I do believe the govt. can afford to attend to the physically and mentally disabled, but not the lazy. But this discussion is about taxes, not welfare. </font color>

</font color>

Later
Ward

<hr /></blockquote>

Wally_in_Cincy

01-30-2003, 02:25 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Boy, are you living in the same world as the rest of us??? Wake up kiddo. The rich in this country are not the angels you make them out to be. They get rich by exploiting other people, breaking the tax laws through crooked accounting methods,

<font color="blue">People who exploit other people and use shady accounting usually fail in the business world. </font color>

and basically stealing from the middle class and upper middle class that didn't have the boost they got from their parents who got rich by doing the same things. Your 1% scenario is not true. There are very few self-made people with money compared to the ones that came from money.

<font color="blue">Sorry you're flat wrong. Think about the wealthy people you know. How many are self-made compared trust-fund babies? </font color>

Just look at Enron. That's nothing new friend, that has been going on for generations. It's disgusting, all those fat cats robbing their employees of their retirement money, and living in mansions. The government should have confiscated every penny they had, and liquidated their assets, and given all the cash to their middle class employees. Corruption is what is killing our country. Insider trading is nothing new.

<font color="blue">I agree. Lock the bastards up and throw away the key. But that has nothing to do with taxes. </font color>

The rich have robbed the middle class, and upper middle class, since the beginning of time. The poor don't have anything for anyone to steal. Have you ever seen the figures on what each senator and congressman costs us by the time they finally croak? How many of them do you think really go into politics to help this country? It's not what you know, it's who you know, and that's why they get into it, to have the oppurtunity to be financially showered by special interest millionaires.

<font color="blue">I agree. I don't like politicians. </font color>

And what about the men who father these welfare kids? We wouldn't be paying for them in the first place if THEY took care of their responsibilities. Do you know how many fathers have kids and then walk away and never look back? But you are ready to just let them off the hook completely???

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr> I agree, Gayle: that needed saying. The country isn't run by welfare recipients; it's run by predatory fatcats who control social and economic policy for their own benefit. And when social and economic policies make life harder for middle-income people, as they often do,

<font color="blue">What makes life tough for the middle class is the ever-increasing tax burden, government waste, and suffocating regulation on business. </font color>

who do most middle-income people blame for their troubles? Why, they blame poor folks--

Hey do you still get that government cheese? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Sorry, I couldn't pass that one up.

Wally_in_Cincy

01-30-2003, 02:40 PM

For federal income tax reform.

Every person, single or married, does not pay taxes on the first $25,000. After that, flat rate of 20% for everybody. Having read some about this I believe 20% is the point where the feds would have enough money to run the government but it's not too much to discourage economic activity. I believe the resulting economic activity would flood the feds coffers within 3 years with more money than they could ever need. That's what I believe.

eg8r

01-30-2003, 03:21 PM

I disagree... [ QUOTE ]
Your 1% scenario is not true. <hr /></blockquote> Show me fact of a better number and we will see.
[ QUOTE ]
Just look at Enron... all those fat cats robbing their employees of their retirement money, and living in mansions...and given all the cash to their middle class employees. <hr /></blockquote> This seems to be something you appear to be uncomfortable with but I will try to show you a difference. No one said they were not corrupt and neither did we say their accounting group was corrupt that much is correct. Where you are way off base to me is that you agree that taking from the rich and giving back to the middle income people is alright. You fail to believe this could be theft. First off, Uncle Kenny did not steal from the middle class employees. He stole the money from the investors (innocent companies looking for some sort of back up incase of bankruptcy). This money should go back to all the smaller companies that invested in this BAD investment. By stating that they stole all the retirement funds from the middle income employees, you are way off base. Everyone has choice, back to my original post, this is where you are responsible for your own actions and in this case your own investments. While I have resentment to the way the employess were treated, I feel no remorse for the people that lost it all. There is a saying, don't put all your eggs in one basket. No employee was forced to utilize their company's 401k plan or any other retirement option. These are all choices you make, these people made some bad choices. I will admit they were deceived into thinking this was a safe investment but there is still risk involved. Now you tell me the money should be taken from the corrupt CEOs and such and given back to the middle class employees....BULLCRAP. Those employees all earned a fair wage (at least a wage they agreed to when they accepted employment). Enron is not in any way obligated to raise their little employees and give them money. These people were excited to cash their check every week. The weekly paycheck is the only thing they needed to receive. This might be hard for you and the rest to swallow, but you are the king of your money and you put it and use it how you would like.

[ QUOTE ]
Corruption is what is killing our country <hr /></blockquote>You are wrong, socialism is what will kill our country. If you don't agree then take a look at the medical situation in Canada. If you do not have any trouble with this, then you will find comfort in the Democratic party.
[ QUOTE ]
The rich have robbed the middle class, and upper middle class, since the beginning of time. <hr /></blockquote> That is like saying the sky is blue. Could you be more general?(sarcasm) Just so you know, the rich are not taxing you that would be the government( I will add the Democratic governemnt). If you would like to know how it is theft then sit back and listen...You work 40 hrs. min per week. Hard earned money. When you get you check you are netted a certain amount. Part of that "lost" money is going to the elderly in the form of social security. Tell me that isn't theft. The income tax is getting split up and sent to all the different government agencies (not covered under the Constitution). One of these is welfare. Where in our Constitution does it say anything about welfare or any of the other governmental agencies. This is theft. I hate paying taxes in and knowing that some guy is collecting unemployment instead of going out and getting a job. THEFT. That is the government NOT the rich. The rich on the other hand are paying your salary. This would be a salary that you accepted and do not mind working for. They are not putting a gun to your head and telling you where to invest your retirement money. That is a choice you make, LIVE WITH IT.
[ QUOTE ]
and that's why they get into it(gayle was talking about Politicians), to have the oppurtunity to be financially showered by special interest millionaires. <hr /></blockquote>I guess you will agree then that the Education and teachers unions are these evil rich with their own agendas and will support any idiot that will preach their word. You must say yes since you made the general statement and I gave example...Surprise these evil rich are democrats and they are the ruin of our education.
[ QUOTE ]
And what about the men who father these welfare kids? We wouldn't be paying for them in the first place if THEY took care of their responsibilities. <hr /></blockquote>This has nothing to do with your desire to steal money from the rich. These men should be held accountable but they are not the subject. The women with kids and a welfare check do not stop having sex and we support it weekly with our taxes. The women have the final say and more should try saying "NO". I am not including rape victims here as I do believe they are victims.
[ QUOTE ]
To top it all off, we got a cowboy in the White House, who BTW was forced on us by the Supreme Court, <hr /></blockquote> This is quite asinine and if you could please show me where the Supreme court made this election I gaurantee you I can show you where they only followed the law which was already in place. Better yet, why don't you show me one single case in Florida where a black voter won a lawsuit because they were not able to vote. When you get the facts and clear you head and think about it you might see what I am talking about. Just so you know, when you go to vote (in Florida) one of the rules to vote is to correctly read the ballot, and completely punch the hole clean. That is the rule. If you are too stupid and cannot read and you choose the wrong guy, sorry that is your fault. It is not illegal to ask for help. If you cannot fully punch a ballot then you need to ask someone how to do it or would they do it for you. These simple solutions are not illegal and are recommended to those in need. If you think for one second that Bush was handed the election, then can you tell me why the Dems rejected a recount of overseas military voters, why they only wanted to recount Democratic counties, and within those counties only the largely democratic voting areas. YOU CANNOT DO THIS. Hell, the so called professional reporters and naysayers were unable to answer these very easy questions. You really don't know anything about this as you were probably getting all your information from the news. I dare to ask if you had a chance to hear it on CNN or FOX news network. My bet is probably you watched it on your local news and CNN. These (ABC, NBC, CBS and CNN) are the biggest contributing networks to the democratic party and they are biased. For now on listen to the Fox News Network for your information. There must be a reason why their ratings continue to rise and scare CNN.
[ QUOTE ]
Your right about one thing, the rich do make decisions over and over, but the decision is to rob, steal and exploit just the way daddy did.
<hr /></blockquote> I gave you the respect by quoting you so give me the same. The rich continue to make the RIGHT decisions based on the definition that right decisions are those that increase wealth. You seem to have a problem with those with money and lump them all together.

eg8r

eg8r

01-30-2003, 03:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The country isn't run by welfare recipients <hr /></blockquote> Funny you say this. Just in the news in Atlanta a week or so ago was the exact opposite. The failed MARTA system was chaired by a welfare recipient. The system has been worse ever since. The leaders of Atlanta at the time thought it would be an intelligent thing to allow someone that would normally use the MARTA to chair it because of their experiences. The MARTA has never gotten any better. Worse yet, when this welfare idiot was removed from office she never turned in her cell phone and continue to use it. Charging the local people of Atlanta close to a thousand dollars last month in cell phone bills. NOW WHO IS STEALING. That woman is the puke of all those on welfare and she contiues to steal and she will continue to never pull herself out of welfare. Why should she, the money is good and the money is FREE. All she has to do it continue to have babies.

eg8r

eg8r

01-30-2003, 03:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I for one will eagerly pay higher taxes I just ask my government to have a social conscience. I think this country is getting away from that.
<hr /></blockquote> I will never agree to higher taxes. If you are willing to part with your money so quickly then just write me a check. I think the problem with people is lack of SELF RESPONSIBILITY. It is absolutely not the governments job to look out for you and help you along. I do not agree that people are a product of environment. People are a product of desire. I believe you are based on what you make of yourself. If you are born into welfare, do you really think it is alright for you to continue the trend, or would you go out and get a job when it is time for you to work.

I only believe in removing welfare from someone if they have more kids while on welfare. If you had a child and for some reason you lost everything, then go ahead and use the policies that are put in place and make use, you got us once, shame on us. If you go out and get pregnant again, you for one have proven you have no self-responsibility and shame on you. We should not increase the free money to support the next child. Rather I think they should be given a job and force their butts to go to work for the money. Why give handouts? Why not give them a job in a supermarket or something down at a port skinning fish or something like that. If these people are sincere about getting off welfare they will work their butts off and keep the job and move up the ladder.

eg8r

eg8r

01-30-2003, 03:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I believe 20% is the point where the feds would have enough money to run the government but it's not too much to discourage economic activity. <hr /></blockquote> Just for the record, the in the recent past, after the last 3 tax cuts, the economy has increased, government revenue has increased, it was always beneficial.

eg8r

eg8r

01-30-2003, 03:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
While it might be true that the richest 1 percent of taxpayers paid ~25 percent, they received 18 percent of the income. <hr /></blockquote> My gosh, those numbers are staggering. 1% of the population pays in 1/4 of the taxes. Just to make a point these numbers are even a little low. A better beacon to look at would be the top 5% income earners. They pay the majority of all taxes. The 95% make up the rest. Pitiful.

eg8r

eg8r

eg8r

01-30-2003, 03:48 PM

I am sorry I posted the last time without reading the rest of your post.
[ QUOTE ]
It is important to keep in mind that rich people are able to change the way they receive much of their income, enabling them legally to reduce, defer or avoid taxable income. <hr /></blockquote> Even more important to remember is that it is all eventually accounted for. Tax deferment only last a couple of years. In the state of Florida if you claim a loss you can only do this for 7 years. Eventually you will lose that benefit.

[ QUOTE ]
This is even more true for big companies!
<hr /></blockquote> You are completely wrong...I am going to quote this from Boortz..."Its not only not fair, its actually a fraud. Bush knows that businesses dont pay taxes. All taxes are levied on wealth and all wealth is held by individuals. Every single penny that a corporation or business pays in federal income taxes comes from some individual; a shareholder, owner, customer or employee. This is a basic economic truth..."

eg8r

cheesemouse

01-30-2003, 04:41 PM

Wally,
I think Eg8r stole the cheese and he is hiding it from the welfare mothers. I think he is hiding it in bushes out back of his Texas mansion......LOL LOL

Gayle in MD

01-30-2003, 05:43 PM

For your information, my daughter's last position in business was as the business manager of the news department at Fox Television in Washington D.C., LOL, and the O'Reiley Factor is my favorite news show, not that I feel compelled to win you over or anything, lol. I happen to be a news junkie, FYI, and I do have enough education not to call someone whose opinion differs from mine, assinine. But, as to your opinions, especially on paying into social security for those elderly who payed their dues in this life, and welfare babies, who haven't hurt anyone, my only comment to you is... /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH...

eg8r

01-30-2003, 06:23 PM

LOL, We agree to disagree.

eg8r

Tom_In_Cincy

01-30-2003, 07:19 PM

If all republicans were beaten up, would that mean that the democrats would do away with medicare?

AND, are all republicans rich?

Sid_Vicious

01-30-2003, 08:36 PM

I totally agree, and add that those political fat cats making the tax laws are all within the upper class of people. Tell me if that doesn't sound like a rigged deal against the middle class from the start. I'd be happy if the rich paid AT LEAST the percentage of tax rate that I do...is that too much to ask? I seriously worry that the corruption in this country's highest offices has already come to a point of no return. It seems obvious to me that somebody supposedly in charge doesn't have his eyes fully open to the demise of American jobs and the destruction of our civil liberties???sid~~~sarcastically laughs when he hears Bush say, "Our economy is STRONG!" Lowest levels except for the Great Depression, that's the publically stated REAL facts

Gayle in MD

01-30-2003, 09:27 PM

Absolutely friend...don't pay any attention to me, I'm just all fired up from listening to C-Span all day...here we are getting ready to go over there and blow up all these innocent people over weapons of mass destruction???? Where is the logic in that? Well, we're gonna blow you up cause we found out that if you wanted to you could blow us up later? And then there is the Senate, begging Powell to please come over there (To the Senate) and let them in on the facts? "Please let us know before you tell the rest of the world what you know about Iraq" So what do we have going on here, four or five men in the white house that have the true facts? The NY Times ran an article today that said that Iraq had trucked out their weapons of mass destruction into, oh damn, can't remember what little country now, but damn, didn't they (Bush and Powell) know that Iraq would hide everything before they got there. We should have gotten that SOB long ago when he gassed his own people. This is where I get mad at what I pay in taxes...not welfare, and not even the rich who aren't taxed enough IMHO, but those poor people over there have lived in hell for so long, oppressed and abused by Sadam, and now we're going to bomb them. And who knows what he's going to do after that? I think aggression from us is what he secretly wants. Tell you the truth, I haven't been this scared since the cuban crises.
Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD

01-30-2003, 09:36 PM

I'm with you Sid, I agree with everything you said, man, are you smart, LOL. But really, Look into their backgrounds on the hill, and most of them came from old money, and when was the last president elected who wasn't a millionaire? Must have been Eisenhower, or maybe Truman. And if they aren't millionaires when they get there, on the hill, they sure are when they leave...
Gayle in Md. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

eg8r

01-31-2003, 01:18 AM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid :</font><hr> I'd be happy if the rich paid AT LEAST the percentage of tax rate that I do <hr /></blockquote> This is funny, are you paying over 30% in taxes? I sincerely doubt that you are. The big difference is that when you pay your taxes and your bills you are not left with the same perentage. Is this because maybe the bills are too high, surely it is not because you are taxed more than the rich. You probably would not survive living the same lifestyle you are right now, if you were paying upwards of 30% instead of the 15 to 25% you are probably really paying.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid:</font><hr> It seems obvious to me that somebody supposedly in charge doesn't have his eyes fully open to the demise of American jobs and the destruction of our civil liberties <hr /></blockquote> Can you please explain this to me. I guess maybe I will try to look at this another way...Lets supposed only the poor and middle classes get tax breaks...Will you please tell me how this changes the American job situation. It doesn't and you know it. By giving money back to the lower and middle income level families does nothing. You know what is funny, the week after everyone started receiving their $300/$600 checks last year (should have been called an advance on your tax returns but it was not)the sale of lottery tickets sky rocketed. Can you please tell me how this helped the American public? When the poor/lower and middle income families get a few extra dollars they blow it...They do not save it for retirement or use it to help start their own company.. They buy lottery tickets.

Now on the reverse side, the wealthy get their taxes reduced the same percentage as the poor/lower and middle income families. Sure they are going to receive a higher amount because they paid in a higher amount. Now once this happens there is more a chance that they will reinvest in their own companies (provided they are self employed) and increase the labor force.

People, tax cuts are an absolute must if you want to stimulte the economy... Just take a recent look in history...We have had 3 tax cuts they are (a direct quote from Boortz) "one under Coolidge, another under Kennedy and one under Reagan. In each instance the tax cut led to strong economic growth which, in turn, led to a strong increase (not a decrease) in federal tax revenues. Democrats are concerned, with good reason, that this may happen yet again if Bush’s tax cut plan becomes law. A strong and growing economy spells disaster to Democrats in 2004. This is why they will fight Bush’s tax cut plans. They will fight them because they know they will work, and they are perfectly willing to extend the economic suffering of Americans if it means a return to power."

Instead of chatting back through emotion go and research a little fact. Does it not suprise you that there are no Democratic talk radio stations on the air? The reason is because the Dems have the same outlook as sid and Gayle and once they start spewing this on the air they get phone calls and are unable to intelligently answer the question. Then ratings go down and they get booted off the air. ( I am not calling any one here un-intelligent. I know most are speaking from emotion and I guess that is fine).

eg8r

eg8r

01-31-2003, 01:34 AM

Just because I love politics, I will bite. I totally agree we should have taken care of Saddam when we had the chance. George Sr. blew that one and we are still living with it. In 96 Clinton had the chance to blow away Osama Bin Laden and he blew the chance. And sure enough we have definitely paid for that one with our own lives. I believe the soon coming war (should we call it that?) is not so much as we are just going to kill them becuase of weapons of mass destruction that is merely the tool being used to keep it all moving forward. Bush clearly stated that the weapons inspectors are NOT in Iraq to look for weapons. They are there to see proof that Saddam has destroyed the weapons. The UN already knows Saddam has it and to a degree how much he has. I believe Bush is waiiting for the second that the UN agrees that Saddam has not done what was demanded of him by the UN and then we will strike. Sure there will be many innocent casualties, but didn't we suffer the same thing on 9/11? It is quite a proven fact that Saddam harbours and helps Al Qaeda and this is another reason for going in and wiping them out. I don't know if you have heard this yet, but in the first 48 hours, the US has stated that they will hit Bagdad with 800 cruise missiles. That will in effect cause more damage than what happened in Hiroshima. Absolute destruction of the area. There will be catostrophic collateral damage and that seems to be something that Bush is willing to take to the grave. I could not make that call myself. The one thing that that will do, is completely obliterate the Iraqi desire to fight or follow Saddam. I guess that is what they are looking to accomplish. This will cause a ton of casualties, but I wonder if it will save thousands more. Iraq has already proclaimed that if we strike, then they will strike Israel. What will that do? When we fought in Desert Storm in the beginning of the 90's Saddam moved all of his weaponry, and whatever else he felt he needed, into the basement of the hospitals in Bagdad. He knew we would not blow the hospital up (Thanks to the wonderful invention of the PGBs we were able to strike as close as possible with the least amount of damage). The point is, he was willing to risk his own people to save his own butt. Surely he should not be ruling this country. The scary thing, is that his two sons are sicker than their father.

eg8r

CarolNYC

01-31-2003, 04:43 AM

Wally,
These gentlemen should just go out to dine with Voodoo!:):):)
Carol~misses Miami

Wally_in_Cincy

01-31-2003, 07:22 AM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> I totally agree, and add that those political fat cats making the tax laws are all within the upper class of people. Tell me if that doesn't sound like a rigged deal against the middle class from the start. I'd be happy if the rich paid AT LEAST the percentage of tax rate that I do...is that too much to ask?

<font color="red">They pay more. </font color>

I seriously worry that the corruption in this country's highest offices has already come to a point of no return. It seems obvious to me that somebody supposedly in charge doesn't have his eyes fully open to the demise of American jobs and the destruction of our civil liberties???sid~~~sarcastically laughs when he hears Bush say, "Our economy is STRONG!" Lowest levels except for the Great Depression, .....

<font color="red">Would you care to elaborate? Is that like Clinton's "Worst economy in the last 50 years"

Do you personally know more than one person who really wants to work and can't find a job. Don't let partisanship blind you to the facts. </font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

Sid_Vicious

01-31-2003, 07:52 AM

Carol...I use the simple approach in this analysis. If I and my economic class are getting poorer and the class of people above me is getting richer, and THEY are the class that makes the tax rules, then it makes instinctive logical sense to study very closely any law changes to see whom it's being steered to benefit. In other words, "I don't trust the current lawmakers any farther than I can throw them when it comes to caring a dam for the middle class." I heard this morning that Exon had close to 60% profits to report. Call me suspicious but it sure seems to me that the "good ol' boy" system works for the upper class and big business. It perplexes the heck out of me to try and understand how people within the middle class ranks can agree with the current direction, when their immediate bottom line on their financial statement becomes less and less with each month that passes. That is truly strange for the way I was raised to think...sid

Ward

01-31-2003, 07:59 AM

Ed

I don't know your background but try this. Assume that you were raised in a welfare home, single mother,no money for day care, no supervision after school, worst economic area of Miami,minority, and tell me that you would have the same opportunities that you have enjoyed.

My point is that everyone does not have equal opportunities and it is my opinion tax monies should be spent to help these people not build a trillion dollar star wars facility in Alaska that Bush wants to build.

Later
Ward

Gayle in MD

01-31-2003, 08:05 AM

OK, it's obvious that you are a die hard republican, and that your ability to judge circumstances from a non partisan point of view is completely overshadowed by that. Although we have gotten off the subject here to some degree, all the things we are discussing come back to the point that we all pay taxes, and we start to groan when those in power do not represent our wishes in the way they spend our tax dollars. IMHO, the greatest waste I have ever observed so far in my lifetime was when I watched the republicans waste millions and millions of dollars investigating what Clinton did with his cigar! Every poll at that time showed that the American people didn't care what had happened, but just look at what they wasted. And as usual, it was all for NOTHING!!

No one has ever been able to prove that Iraq gave money to the terrorists.

While I totally agree that Saddam should be done away with, I think that we have come to a time when the prospect of war is just too devasting to the world to justify. Killing innocent people is wrong. Are we not intelligent enough to settle our disputes in other ways? If not, then shame of us! When you and your family are suffering with small pox, you may change your mind about war.

I listened to Bush, swearing over and over that he would get Bin Laden. What happened to that?

You seem to think that others who have a different point of view from yours, are thinking only from an emotional point of view. I ask you, are we to decide the future of our children without emotion? May I say that doing what is right, is more important than being right. There are principles in the universe, and the principles work. It doesn't matter if you believe in them or not, they are still working in your life and mine. Money is power, and power corrupts. The days of might makes right are gone. This planet must be our first concern. If we are to set an example of compassion to the rest of the world, we must find other ways to achieve our goals without nuclear weapons.

I grew up hearing about Hiroshima. Looking at the pictures of war. Hiroshima, Korea, Vietnam, little children, suffering, burned beyond belief. You sound very unaffected by the results of engaging in war? How old are you anyway??? I used to run every morning with my neighbor's young Japanese daughter-in-law. I listened to her stories of her family in Japan, and what the atomic bomb did to her country, the suffering of her relatives, the cancer that followed, the little children born deformed for years and years after. Your damn right I got emotional, and emotion is what we need a little more of these days if you ask me.

Bottom line in all this, your heros, the Bushes, blew it. They didn't seize the moment. They waited too long. War isn't just something that happens "Over there" any longer. War is something that human kind can no longer afford my friend. We owe it to future generations to rise above the former historical methods of solving our disputes. If we can't do that, the world is doomed. If we continue a habit of responding to the misdeeds of a few sick maniacs by causing suffering and destruction to innocent millions, what does that make us, I ask you?
Gayle in Md.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Wally_in_Cincy

01-31-2003, 08:51 AM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>

...Are we not intelligent enough to settle our disputes in other ways? ...

<font color="blue">Power is the only thing tyrants understand. If you knew anything about history you would know that. </font color>

...are we to decide the future of our children without emotion?

<font color="blue">Logic works much better. </font color>

I grew up hearing about Hiroshima. Looking at the pictures of war. Hiroshima, Korea, Vietnam, little children, suffering, burned beyond belief. You sound very unaffected by the results of engaging in war? How old are you anyway??? I used to run every morning with my neighbor's young Japanese daughter-in-law. I listened to her stories of her family in Japan, and what the atomic bomb did to her country, the suffering of her relatives, the cancer that followed, the little children born deformed for years and years after.

<font color="blue">They started it. The Japanese were bloodthirsty bastards. Why don't you go read about the stuff they did in China, Korea, and the Phils. </font color>

If we continue a habit of responding to the misdeeds of a few sick maniacs by causing suffering and destruction to innocent millions,

<font color="blue">There will be collateral damage. But hundreds, not millions. In case you haven't noticed our weapons are pinpoint accurate now. </font color>

what does that make us, I ask you?

<font color="blue">The light of hope in a world of darkness.
The shining city on the hill.
God's representative on Earth.
The nation who frees the oppressed and loves liberty.
The nation that saved Europe (twice).
Take your pick.
</font color>

Gayle in Md.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

Gayle in MD

01-31-2003, 10:45 AM

Well, Wally, I enjoy a good debate, and surely no two people can agree on everything. What I notice about your writing style though, is the condescending responses.
I love my country as much as you. It is the melting pot of the world. I suppose you think that ALL Japanese people are bastards? Obviously you think that others with a different point of view from yours, are stupid and uninformed. Saddam probably thinks the same thing.....

Gayle in Md

cheesemouse

01-31-2003, 12:08 PM

eg8r,
You seem to be suffering from some kind of delusion about tax rates. Just because the rates exist does not mean they are paid. Enron the world's leading energy broker paid no corporate taxes in four of the five past years, avoiding taxes is the rule, not the exception, in the U.S. business community.

In Enron's case, its creative accounting firm, Arthur Anderson Company, one of the top five in the country that serves the ruling rich, created 900 subsidiaries in tax-haven countries to reduce its tax payments to Uncle Sam to zero.

The lessons for working people are clear. Enron is the rule, not the exception in corporate functioning.

Americans are already cynical about the tax system. Now, with the unfolding Enron scandal, how can anyone avoid the conclusion that only the little guy pays? While a typical family earning $50,000 per year may end up owing a quarter or more of its income in federal taxes, companies such as Enron have been paying nothing.

When your personal hard work results in the success of your own company what will you do? Pay your fair share or hire lawyers and accountants to do everything to get out of paying your taxes. Even if you concider yourself a patriotic American you will be forced to rob your country of it's fair share, if you don't you will be a poor business man and that my friend is whats wrong with it all.

Wally_in_Cincy

01-31-2003, 12:14 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Well, Wally, I enjoy a good debate, and surely no two people can agree on everything. What I notice about your writing style though, is the condescending responses.
<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> I'm condescending? </font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Boy, are you living in the same world as the rest of us??? Wake up kiddo. The rich in this country are not the angels you make them out to be. <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>
To top it all off, we got a cowboy in the White House, who BTW was forced on us by the Supreme Court, who can't even "SAY" NUCLEAR, and he's the guy whose going to make the decision to push the red button! Your right about one thing, the rich do make decisions over and over, but the decision is to rob, steal and exploit just the way daddy did.
Gayle in Md., /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> I'm condescending? </font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>
I love my country as much as you. It is the melting pot of the world. I suppose you think that ALL Japanese people <font color="red">are </font color>bastards?

<font color="blue">I said "were". Don't put words in my mouth. And they were. They were worse than Hitler in a lot of ways. Look it up. </font color>

Obviously you think that others with a different point of view from yours, are stupid and uninformed.

The tax system in this country will not be totally fair, until they switch to a flat-rate income tax system, where every one, regardless of income, pays the same percentage of their GROSS income, with no deductions.

That would be fair.

That is not going to happen, because the super rich will not let it happen. They do not want to give up their deductions, tax shelters and creative bookeeping, and pay their fair share.

So much for my 2 cents worth.

Fran Crimi

01-31-2003, 01:26 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> The tax system in this country will not be totally fair, until they switch to a flat-rate income tax system, where every one, regardless of income, pays the same percentage of their GROSS income, with no deductions.

That would be fair.

That is not going to happen, because the super rich will not let it happen. They do not want to give up their deductions, tax shelters and creative bookeeping, and pay their fair share.

So much for my 2 cents worth. <hr /></blockquote>

Rich, I think you have to consider the value of deductions to our economy. The incentives that deductions provide help stimulate economic growth, not to mention individual growth. No one could afford to have a prospering business if they couldn't deduct certain expenses. Take a person who is in business for themself and isn't incorporated. How can they afford to grow, hire people, buy new equipment and increase productivity if they have to pay tax on everything they spend? It's impossible and they would fold. Remember, somebody's got to be in business so others can work for them. And this isn't even about corporations. Many individuals have their own business.

And if you're recommending the same thing for corporations, it would be even more disasterous. You've just brought spending and ultimately, growth, to a complete standstill.

The amount of illegal manipulation of deductions is small compared to the overall benefits of deduction incentives to the economy.

Fran

nAz

01-31-2003, 01:37 PM

Off the subject here but i was wondering has anyone gone to jail for the Enron/MCI scandals? the news seems to have forgotten about it. i guess with that other thing going on, no ones seems to care. nice distraction /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

cheesemouse

01-31-2003, 02:06 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> The tax system in this country will not be totally fair, until they switch to a flat-rate income tax system, where every one, regardless of income, pays the same percentage of their GROSS income, with no deductions.

That would be fair.

That is not going to happen, because the super rich will not let it happen. They do not want to give up their deductions, tax shelters and creative bookeeping, and pay their fair share.

So much for my 2 cents worth. <hr /></blockquote>

Rich R,
I was going to mention the 'flat tax' one that could be written in one simple paragragh but your correct, it couldn't possibly become the law of the land. But even if was the law of the land my cynical mind wanders to the idea that Corp. American would still pay zero as they would simply cook the books to show no profits just like they do today in the present system.

I hate being so cynical but I've been over the 40 miles of bad road in my service to my country, in business and in trying to let my mother end her years with some dignity while the system sucked her dry in those final years. Years that should have been spent looking back at her life well spent instead of her not taking her medications so she could buy food or gifts for her grandchildren.

Sorry for being so negative but people like eg8r who spill their ideas so easily and even articulately drive me up the wall. They repeat what is spoon feed them, the mantra of that upper 1% "hey, you too can become a member" little do they know that the deck is stack against them and all that they produce goes to mantain that exclusive club. If eg8r is so lucky to reach his goal of being a 'have' he will separate himself and move into his onclave but his life will be no fuller than yours or mine rather he will spend his last years worrying about the rabble in the streets. He will stand behing the walls of his onclave and wonder what is wrong with those people out there and why are they so upset...sure I buy lottery tickets because through it all I have mantained my sence of humor...LOL LOL...

nAz

01-31-2003, 02:14 PM

Hey whats considered rich? if i make over 75k a year is that rich?

Wally_in_Cincy

01-31-2003, 02:20 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr> Hey whats considered rich? if i make over 75k a year is that rich? <hr /></blockquote>

not in NYC /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

cheesemouse

01-31-2003, 02:33 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr> Hey whats considered rich? if i make over 75k a year is that rich? <hr /></blockquote>

Sorry buddy 75K don't even get you a sniff. Your still a worker bee with worker bee toys...LOL...rich is when no one can even tell you how much your worth and how can one pay taxes on what can't be determined...LOL...

cheesemouse

01-31-2003, 02:41 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr> Off the subject here but i was wondering has anyone gone to jail for the Enron/MCI scandals? the news seems to have forgotten about it. i guess with that other thing going on, no ones seems to care. nice distraction /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>

nAz,
If I'm not mistaken Lady Justice is blingfolded with her hand out. If you can fill her palms justice is not swift. If your broke on the other hand....LOL...your sorry a$$ is going to jail and rather swiftly..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

TomBrooklyn

01-31-2003, 04:12 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ward:</font><hr>My point is that everyone does not have equal opportunities. <hr /></blockquote>Every adult is responsible for themselves. To think otherwise is for a person to take their own power away. Every person in this country is welcome to get a high school education for free, and even a college education at a price they can afford, including zero tuition if they can show they have no money. Every person can be a success. It does not depend on getting social services. It depends on them having the right attitude, taking responsibility for themselves, setting goals and being willing to work to achieve them. Absent those things, even a person coming from wealth will never be satisfied or happy, though they may not be monitarily poor.

Giving people welfare money and food stamps etc. has been used much if not most of the time, not to help out through a period of financial crisis, but as a crutch to avoid taking responsibility for owns own life and welfare, and has enabled millions of people to continue to live a substandard life, both financialy and in terms of their own happiness and self esteem.
=TB

SpiderMan

01-31-2003, 04:28 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr> Hey whats considered rich? if i make over 75k a year is that rich? <hr /></blockquote>

Only if you live in Arkansas and your lawn furniture comes from someone else's living room.

SpiderMan

eg8r

01-31-2003, 04:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You seem to be suffering from some kind of delusion about tax rates. Just because the rates exist does not mean they are paid. Enron the world's leading energy broker paid no corporate taxes in four of the five past years, avoiding taxes is the rule, not the exception, in the U.S. business community....While a typical family earning $50,000 per year may end up owing a quarter or more of its income in federal taxes, companies such as Enron have been paying nothing. <hr /></blockquote> I think you are mixing things up. when talking about taxing the rich we are not referring to corporate taxes. Eron does not apply here. Why is this so confusing?

Originally the post was about rich people, quit referring back to corporations. Corporations do not pay income tax on their own earnings. That is illegal. They only match the income tax for wages paid to the employees.

nAz

01-31-2003, 04:31 PM

hey read this i wonder if i qualify to get one hmmm

Jan. 31 — Ever thought of buying a Hummer? If you run a small business, and if President Bush’s proposal to triple a tax deduction is approved, you could write off up to $75,000 of the cost

[ QUOTE ]
The tax system in this country will not be totally fair, until they switch to a flat-rate income tax system, where every one, regardless of income, pays the same percentage of their GROSS income, with no deductions.

That would be fair.

That is not going to happen, because the super rich will not let it happen. They do not want to give up their deductions, tax shelters and creative bookeeping, and pay their fair share.

So much for my 2 cents worth. <hr /></blockquote>On the other hand you have the lower/poor to middle income groups not allowing it to happen because they feel the rich should pay a higher rate. It is simple to see that the poor/lower to middle income groups are as much to blame.

eg8r

eg8r

01-31-2003, 04:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It perplexes the heck out of me to try and understand how people within the middle class ranks can agree with the current direction, when their immediate bottom line on their financial statement becomes less and less with each month that passes. <hr /></blockquote>It is also funny to me when they go out and lease cars. Middle income do things that are not smart and they are left spending their money on bills. This is not tough, but I wonder if you are adding these things into your "bottom line".

eg8r

eg8r

01-31-2003, 04:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry for being so negative but people like eg8r who spill their ideas so easily and even articulately drive me up the wall. They repeat what is spoon feed them, the mantra of that upper 1% "hey, you too can become a member" little do they know that the deck is stack against them and all that they produce goes to mantain that exclusive club. If eg8r is so lucky to reach his goal of being a 'have' he will separate himself and move into his onclave but his life will be no fuller than yours or mine rather he will spend his last years worrying about the rabble in the streets. He will stand behing the walls of his onclave and wonder what is wrong with those people out there and why are they so upset...sure I buy lottery tickets because through it all I have mantained my sence of humor...LOL LOL... <hr /></blockquote> Spoon fed is pretty funny. You list me some media outlets that are in line with my way of thinking, and i will show you 10 that are in line with yours. If you could come up with a few facts would be great then maybe a point could be proven, however you still are not even comparing apples to apples. You for some reason are mentioning Enron and they have nothing to do with personal income taxes (these are the taxes that are paid based on personal income, not corporate revenue).

The humor thing was pretty funny to. I hope you enjoy the lottery tickets, maybe every year you should add up how much you spent and see if that could of helped pay the car off instead of flushing it down the toilet.

eg8r

eg8r

01-31-2003, 05:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
OK, it's obvious that you are a die hard republican <hr /></blockquote> Wrong...I am libertarian but normally vote republican. It all depends on what each one is offering at the time.

[ QUOTE ]
No one has ever been able to prove that Iraq gave money to the terrorists.
<hr /></blockquote>Read some of the notes from the UN, they say the have indisputable proof that Iraq harbours the Al Qaeda.

[ QUOTE ]
I listened to Bush, swearing over and over that he would get Bin Laden. What happened to that?
<hr /></blockquote> You are correct to a degree, but no one can say for sure without a doubt that he is dead either...Fact is fact. A few more facts for you, Bush senior let Saddam go a decade ago and Clinton let Osama go 6 years ago. The past couple Presidents have all failed in killing the leader when they had the chance.
[ QUOTE ]
You seem to think that others who have a different point of view from yours, are thinking only from an emotional point of view. <hr /></blockquote> Am i wrong?
[ QUOTE ]
You sound very unaffected by the results of engaging in war? How old are you anyway??? <hr /></blockquote> I am only 27. I am not sure what to gather from this except that maybe I was not around during some of the earlier wars.
[ QUOTE ]
Bottom line in all this, your heros, the Bushes, blew it. They didn't seize the moment. They waited too long. <hr /></blockquote> Lets not forget Clinton. This seems to be tooooo easy around here.
[ QUOTE ]
If we continue a habit of responding to the misdeeds of a few sick maniacs by causing suffering and destruction to innocent millions, what does that make us, I ask you?
<hr /></blockquote> well, if you consider 9/11 a misdeed, then I would assume you are ready to roll over and die. Maybe we should not try anything and hide, surely they will never try it again. Or maybe we could go after the few that we know are causing the problems.

eg8r

cheesemouse

01-31-2003, 06:43 PM

eg8r,
[ QUOTE ]
If you could come up with a few facts would be great then maybe a point could be proven, <hr /></blockquote>

Do a Google search: which of the Fortune 500 paid taxes for 2002 and you'll have more facts then even you will want to deal with. But alas and alack I don't really think you wish to be convince of anything. Your mind is made up and come hell or high water, by god, you'll keep those ideals in tack. Hey, your welcome to your narrow compassionless mind. But quite frankly you guys scare the hell out of me...Oh by the way now that you Republicans are in control of everything are you going to have the 'beans' to take responsiblity for what happens in the next couple of years or is it going to still be Bills fault??? I'm not going to argue with you about "S" or "C" corporations as I don't think you have an open mind about taxes, politics or what constitutes being a good American. The concrete in you head is set-up and no new information can get in. I do kind of like this 'not pool related' part of the board though, it's a nice change of pace...When I do win the lottery is there like a secret handshake I have to learn in order to join the Republican party???

Gayle in MD

01-31-2003, 07:32 PM

All depends on what they're offering at the time huh? Sound like you're looking for a hand out...27 huh, that explains everything. Oh, and BTW, maybe Wally should inform Colin Powell about Saddam giving money to Bin Laden, since he just said last night there was no proof of Saddam giving money to the terrorists. Which doesn't change my feelings about Saddam, anyway. I hope they get him. I just can't see killing the innocent to do it. And also, don't tell me the economy is better friend. The proof of that is in the job market, which has dropped lower and lower ever since Mr. "Make NO Mistake" got into the White House. Maybe if the republicans hadn't been so busy looking into Clinton's sex life, he could have had the time to get Bin Laden. You might read what Alan Greenspan thinks of Clinton sometime.
Now that last statement of yours makes some sense, YES, lets go and get those few first, and not be so damn war happy. Once we open up this bag of worms, where is it going to end, Then we gotta go blow up N. Korea, too, right?
Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD

01-31-2003, 07:44 PM

Oh sorry Wally, so does that mean you thought all Japanese people WERE bastards. Oh Ok, I think I got it now. And also, no where in my posts do I say, "You're wrong," or "You're uninformed" nor do I advise you to "Read This" or "Read That" I do think though that you interpret the "Facts" differently than I. And yes, you ARE condescending...IMHO

[ QUOTE ]
Do a Google search: which of the Fortune 500 paid taxes for 2002 ... But alas and alack I don't really think you wish to be convince of anything. Your mind is made up and come hell or high water, by god, you'll keep those ideals in tack. <hr /></blockquote> It is quite simple if you ask me...Just prove to me with fact that a corporation will pay income tax on revenue generated by the corporation.

I think the main issue is your inability to get away from corporate taxes and personal taxes. These two are different. Since the discussion originally started out talking about rich "people" why do you continue bringing in "Fortune 500" companies. FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES DO NOT PAY PERSONAL INCOME TAXES ON REVENUE. (I am not yelling, just did not want to add bold tags).

[ QUOTE ]
The concrete in you head is set-up and no new information can get in. I do kind of like this 'not pool related' part of the board though, it's a nice change of pace...When I do win the lottery is there like a secret handshake I have to learn in order to join the Republican party??? <hr /></blockquote>Aww, since you are so close to calling names I will join but only this one time. Are you so simple minded to believe that wealth is the only way to become a Republican. I love the fact that pool is the one thing we have in common. If not for all the different people the pool scene would be boring.

Yes I do love this part of the CCB. Even more, I love all the games that Naz finds and exhibits here. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

eg8r

eg8r

01-31-2003, 08:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And also, don't tell me the economy is better friend. The proof of that is in the job market, which has dropped lower and lower ever since Mr. "Make NO Mistake" got into the White House. <hr /></blockquote> PLEASE show proof of this. My gawd, the economy was already entering recession when Clinton left. I surely hope you are not attributing a low economy to the budget deficit (I know this sucks but that is what defense spending does). Surely you have some proof that Bush is the one that caused the collapse of the economy....Could you please tell me who was in office at the fall of the Stock Market (you can begin near the time of the .com failures). Tell me this, if Gore was President and the economy continued to slip would I be wrong in blaming Gore for this???? Well Gore and Clinton were the ones in chage when the economy began its recession. Just so you know, by defintion the US is no longer in a recession. We have sustained a few quarters of growth. We are not a strong economy just yet, but it is building (opposite of what happen when Clinton left office).
[ QUOTE ]
Then we gotta go blow up N. Korea, too, right?
<hr /></blockquote> Oh heck yeah!!!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Just to add to all this how excited are you that your beloved pres Clinton sold detailed instructions and specs to the Chinese on how to build the nuclear arms. It is just a shame all that money could not buy Gore a seat in the White House.

eg8r

TomBrooklyn

01-31-2003, 08:21 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr> If you run a small business, and if President Bush’s proposal to triple a tax deduction is approved, you could write off up to $75,000 of the cost <hr /></blockquote>Another result of stupid laws. If the Government let business's fully write off any vehicle regardless of weight or price, there would be no incentive to buy a heavy Hummer to get the larger deduction. The luxury tax is another debacle of those who feel it is better to stay poor and soak the wealthy rather than make themselves wealthy and have everybody pay a moderate amount of taxes. People forgot that the it was middle class workers who made the expensive boats, planes, and cars. They put a bunch of people out of work, and onto the unemployment and welfare roles when wealthy people balked at paying an extra 10% of the money they had worked so hard to make to buy the expensive things that they had became able to afford.

eg8r

01-31-2003, 08:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Every adult is responsible for themselves. To think otherwise is for a person to take their own power away. Every person in this country is welcome to get a high school education for free, and even a college education at a price they can afford, including zero tuition if they can show they have no money. Every person can be a success. It does not depend on getting social services. It depends on them having the right attitude, taking responsibility for themselves, setting goals and being willing to work to achieve them. Absent those things, even a person coming from wealth will never be satisfied or happy, though they may not be monitarily poor.

Giving people welfare money and food stamps etc. has been used much if not most of the time, not to help out through a period of financial crisis, but as a crutch to avoid taking responsibility for owns own life and welfare, and has enabled millions of people to continue to live a substandard life, both financialy and in terms of their own happiness and self esteem.
<hr /></blockquote>I agree totally.

There is one hyphenated word for this...SELF-RESPONSIBILITY.. Own up for what you have done and live with the results.

Ward, no I did not come from a poor family per se. I came from a low income family where my father had quit school in the 7 grade to go work for a living. My mother made it through school and received her high school diploma. While living in less than "nice" facilities my parents worked their butt off and I went to stay with family after school. My mother took a loan out and bought my father a tractor and he began to drive the open road transporting cars all over the state of Florida. He worked his butt off and we did not see much of him. Instead of crying about how little money he had, he worked. Sure enough they saved enough money and we started moving up and moved to a city called Boca Raton (not the wealthiest side of town). They have continued to work and have now retired and then started working again because their lifestyle became boring. I have seen that work ethic and have begun to apply it to my own life. I worked full time all the way through college got my degree. I started working, and am now starting back in school. I started my own company and I put in countless hours there. I am choosing to do this now so that I will be around when my wife and I have kids.

I tell you this, 1. Because you did not know my background, and 2. To show that I am willing to put in the extra effort to not fall into the whining crowd that does not have money. I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth, but I do think there was an oily cloth around somewhere. I come from a "working" class family and that is the same thing my children will see. I do not ask for anything and I work for what I want.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Rich, I think you have to consider the value of deductions to our economy. The incentives that deductions provide help stimulate economic growth, not to mention individual growth. No one could afford to have a prospering business if they couldn't deduct certain expenses. Take a person who is in business for themself and isn't incorporated. How can they afford to grow, hire people, buy new equipment and increase productivity if they have to pay tax on everything they spend? It's impossible and they would fold. Remember, somebody's got to be in business so others can work for them. And this isn't even about corporations. Many individuals have their own business.

And if you're recommending the same thing for corporations, it would be even more disasterous. You've just brought spending and ultimately, growth, to a complete standstill.

The amount of illegal manipulation of deductions is small compared to the overall benefits of deduction incentives to the economy.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>
Fran, you are correct, under the current system, deductions can not be done away with, mainly because of the high tax rates. Those rates are determined with the consideration that individuals and businesses will have deductions.
Keep in mind, under a far more simple flat-tax system, the rate for every one would be much lower, because there would be no deductions.
Under the current system, an extremely wealthy person and/or business may have income putting them in a 25 to 30 percent bracket. Forgive me if my numbers are wrong, I am no accountant. After deductions, various tax shelters and other financial manuvering, they may end up paying little or no taxes, as others have mentioned. At the same time, a middle income person or business, without the ability to take advantage of all the tax loop holes, ends up actually paying a 20 percent tax bill. That doesn't seem very fair to me.
Under a flat rate system, both the wealthy and the middle income individuals and/or businesses, would pay somewhere around 5 or 10 percent. This would certainly benefit the middle income. I believe it would also benefit the wealthy, because they would not have to spend so much time and money to establish shelters and look for loop holes.
The bottom line is every one would be paying the same percentage and that is fair.

If you want an example of this working, look at Pennsylvania. I don't know about businesses, but their personal state income tax is a flat rate. I grew up in Pennsylvania and I believe the flat rate was about 2.5%. However, I moved out of that state almost 30 years ago. At that time, when I came to Maryland, it was a thorough shock when tax time came.

You can bet H. &amp; R. Block will fight the flat-rate tax as long as they can, because everyone would be able to prepare their own tax returns. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

And also, no where in my posts do I say, "You're wrong," or "You're uninformed" nor do I advise you to "Read This" or "Read That"

<font color="blue">Maybe because you don't have any documentation to back up your emotion. </font color>

I do think though that you interpret the "Facts" differently than I. And yes, you ARE condescending...IMHO

<font color="blue">You are correct. I was condescending and for that I apologize. But there's just some things I am passionate about. People that hate the wealthy and people that say "Avoid war at all costs". That's what Neville Chamberlain did with Hitler and that appeasement caused many more deaths than would have occured otherwise. </font color>

.....Once we open up this bag of worms, where is it going to end, Then we gotta go blow up N. Korea, too, right?
Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

If not for your boy Clinton we would not be dealing with this N. Korea problem.

Did you notice Bush said the other night he was not going to leave these problems for future administrations and future generations. He realizes his mission is to clean up the mess left by Bush 41 and Clinton.

And BTW, in the future when you hear that the Chinese have the capability to hit anywhere in the U.S. with an ICBM, you can thank Loral who sold them the guidance technology with Clinton's blessing.

Fran Crimi

02-01-2003, 12:25 PM

I hear ya, Rich, but a flat tax on gross income really isn't equality. Take for example, two people who both gross 100k, and let's say they both have to pay a flat tax of 20%. But one is a salaried employee and the other operates a small business. Let's say it costs the business owner 40k to operate his business. He only really earned 60k, yet he has to pay tax on 100k as opposed to the salaried employee who actually did put 100k in his pocket.

That's tough enough, but if the business owner wants to try to expand, that would mean incurring more expenses over his 40k base costs, yet he would still have to pay tax on that 100k the second year...because his business wouldn't have shown an increase in profits yet.

So, it's possible under a flat tax system, for a business owner to earn zero and pay tax on 100k, the same tax as someone who actually puts 100k in his pocket and has no business expenses. There's no incentive there for growth and no incentive to be in business for yourself.

Fran

cheesemouse

02-01-2003, 01:21 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I hear ya, Rich, but a flat tax on gross income really isn't equality. Take for example, two people who both gross 100k, and let's say they both have to pay a flat tax of 20%. But one is a salaried employee and the other operates a small business. Let's say it costs the business owner 40k to operate his business. He only really earned 60k, yet he has to pay tax on 100k as opposed to the salaried employee who actually did put 100k in his pocket.

That's tough enough, but if the business owner wants to try to expand, that would mean incurring more expenses over his 40k base costs, yet he would still have to pay tax on that 100k the second year...because his business wouldn't have shown an increase in profits yet.

So, it's possible under a flat tax system, for a business owner to earn zero and pay tax on 100k, the same tax as someone who actually puts 100k in his pocket and has no business expenses. There's no incentive there for growth and no incentive to be in business for yourself.

Fran

<hr /></blockquote>

Fran, I believe your example is misleading. The 'flat tax' would not be paid on the normal cost of doing business only on the profits of that business. The flat tax would only apply to the businesses 60K in profits.

Fran Crimi

02-01-2003, 01:23 PM

Right, but Rich was proposing a flat tax on gross income.

Fran

eg8r

02-01-2003, 02:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The 'flat tax' would not be paid on the normal cost of doing business only on the profits of that business. The flat tax would only apply to the businesses 60K in profits. <hr /></blockquote> This is wrong also. The only thing being tax by the flat rate is the income paid to the owner through his business. The flat tax rate is based on income and businesses do not have personal income. I am not saying there are not other taxing situations on a business but they have nothing to do with personal taxes like the example of a flat income tax rate.

In Frans example though, the business does get the benefit of showing depreciation expenses and such will help alleviate some of the expansion costs.

I have my own business and I as a general rule do not pull out a whole lot to pay myself that way I can keep some of the tax issues at bay. Another nice thing is instead of writing myself a paycheck so I can afford my bills, the business just pays the bills (i.e. car, insurance, and rent). In order to keep the balance sheet balanced I do have to show lease income for the car and the % of the apartment that is my office but I don't pay the SS and Med. Saves me 15.3% in taxes. Beore all the tax gurus here say "See now you are not paying 15.3%." Wrong, everyone pays 7.65 into ss and med, the business pays the other 7.65. I personally am saving the 7.65 and my business is saving 7.65.

eg8r

Rich R.

02-01-2003, 03:25 PM

Fran, I won't pretend to be an accounting or economics expert. Obviously the same tax system will not work for businesses and for individuals. Certain allowances will have to be made for businesses to expand. After all, our current system has different rules for the two.
I would just like to see a more equitable system.
I know that all big businesses and wealthy people don't get away with minimum taxes or tax free, but enough do. Every person and business should be paying a FAIR share. I also believe our current tax system is way too complicated. It should not take several hours of work for the average tax payer to prepare their tax return.
At this point I will bow out of this discussion. I've already gone in way over my head. My tax experience is mostly of the paying variety.

Gayle in MD

02-03-2003, 01:47 PM

That's very funny Wally, FYI, I come from a wealthy Family, both sides, too. But we were not brought up to think that we were smarter than others who had not been as fortunate as we. We were brought up to appreciate opportunity, and also to understand that many many others, for one reason or another, did not have equal opportunities to ours in this life. And also we were taught that every life is valuable, and that to settle differences with violence, was what uneducated people did. Your ability to cancel out human emotion in your thinking shows me that you have little compassion for others, even if they may be defenseless,
"Put them in orphanages" Right, just rip them away from their parents, and dump them in an orphanage, so they will be without love or food. Indeed, Wally, you defend the often corrupt rich, as you attack the poor babies born into welfare families, you're all heart! It has long been understood in the world of psycology that those who are able to integrate their emotions into their decisions are the most mature, and well adjusted of all. Emotions are neither good or bad, they just are. Psychotics, like Hitler, are emotionless, and without compassion. Sociopaths are without compassion. "Just some things I'm passionate about" Uh, lets see now, passion huh, wouldn't that fall under the heading of emotion???
We can argue this thing about taxes till we are blue in the face. Let's just wait and see what kind of deficit will lay in the wake of the Bush administration, through the roof I'll bet.
I'll leave you two bomb happy gentlemen with one last quote....
"We don't pay taxes. The little people pay taxes"
Leona Helmsly....
/ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD

02-03-2003, 01:56 PM

You got a lot to learn about life, son. I can't wait till you have been around long enough to understand what the business world is all about. Keep the cockeyed optimism about your power thouigh, it's good to have that when you are young.....
All the best to you and yours...
Gayle in Md.

eg8r

02-03-2003, 02:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You got a lot to learn about life, son. I can't wait till you have been around long enough to understand what the business world is all about. Keep the cockeyed optimism about your power thouigh, it's good to have that when you are young..... <hr /></blockquote> Thank you, I am learning more everyday...Hopefully I will not allow liberals to cloud my understanding of taxation, and who exactly is paying the tax, as I grow older. I am quite happy that I am one of the few that is willing to put in the work to better myself instead of sit back and whine about those that have been more successful. I believe those complainers are quite similar to the pool railbirds.

On a different note, I do wish my best to you and your family. If anything we still have pool. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif No hard feelings here.

eg8r

eg8r

eg8r

02-03-2003, 03:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But we were not brought up to think that we were smarter than others who had not been as fortunate as we. <hr /></blockquote> Nope you were brought up to believe that age makes you smarter. I believe that "experience and training" is what makes you smarter and those are not always a 1 to 1 correlation with age.
I surely hope you did not grow up thinking practice makes perfect? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

cheesemouse

02-03-2003, 11:03 PM

eg8r,
[ QUOTE ]
I am quite happy that I am one of the few that is willing to put in the work to better myself instead of sit back and whine about those that have been more successful. I believe those complainers are quite similar to the pool railbirds. <hr /></blockquote>

Here's some good advice from a liberal. Don't gamble at the game of pool because your arragance and know it all attitude will keep you busted...LOL LOL...Nothing personal you understand... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

eg8r

02-04-2003, 07:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Here's some good advice from a liberal. Don't gamble at the game of pool because your arragance and know it all attitude will keep you busted...LOL LOL...<hr /></blockquote> No problem. I don't gamble. I am smart enough to know that I do not play all that great so I would be better off saving my money or using it elsewhere.

eg8r,
[ QUOTE ]
I am smart enough to know that I do not play all that great <hr /></blockquote>

Apply this liberal thinking to the rest of your life and you will go far my son...

#### leonard

02-04-2003, 08:46 AM

The rich bribe Presidents to get their ear. With the war on Iraq looming the President spent all of Sept,Oct,traveling all over this Country raising Money for the Republican Party. He raised a Whopping 200 billion dollars, an was in Washington only 4 hours during his imagineary conflict with Saddam. If Iraq was so important why wasn't he devoting his time to the conflict no he was whoring himself all over the country. We don't elect Presidents to spend all their time prostituting themselves to Big Business and Big Bribers. Then they are repaid with a Giant Tax Cut.

It has come out that his father gave a speech to the Company Global Crossing for $100,000 but took the payment in stock and sold the stock for $15,000,000 before the collapse of the company. ####

#### leonard

02-04-2003, 09:06 AM

Reagan, do okay, the man was an Actor and a B actor at that. I remember Howard K. Smith talking about Reagan, how he had the wrong facts on one of his thinking points and Howard pointed it out to him that his information was wrong and gave him the correct info. A month later he gave the same bad opinion that he given before and Howard asked him how he could still believe even if the facts proved otherwise. To which he could only stutter some lame excuse. Howard then told the interviewer he thought Reagan had no thinking power just repeating power. He wore an earplug when he gave Press Conference. He was given his replies over the ear plug. He didn't have a brain in his head. the only thing he could say was "THERE YOU GO
AGAIN"####

Wally_in_Cincy

02-04-2003, 11:12 AM

####,

You're right.

Reagan was a terrible President.

My bad.

eg8r

02-04-2003, 12:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
We don't elect Presidents to spend all their time prostituting themselves to Big Business and Big Bribers. <hr /></blockquote> Can you enlightened us on your views of Clinton whoring out the White House...Maybe Clinton whoring out our defense and missle secrets. Who was he whoring himself out to...Surprise!!!!The Chinese. I feel a lot more comfort in American Big Business than I feel comfortable knowing that Clinton is selling off secrets to China.

Gayle I wanted to post this concerning the taxes. In my youth I caddied at a private country club, Schulyer Meadows CC. There were 70 playing members and one honorary member Gov Thomas E Dewey. There was one member who all the caddies wondered how he was a member. He worked for an appliance dealer while every other member owned large business etc DR,Lawyers. Then around 1958 on the front page of the Albany Times Union was the headline area family to share in a $100,000,000 estate. It went on to list that the US government was to receive 42,000,000 and the state of Pennsylvania 10,000,000, the lawyers and exec 12,000,000 and the 4 children were to receive 9,000,000 each. The appliance mans wife was a daughter. Then it made sense why he was a member.
Now here is the best part, it said the father an oil man from Titusville,Pa could have set up a foundation, the same as the Rockerfellers but he love America so much that he wanted to share his good fortune with America. When I see the rich today I know how poor they are.####

Wally_in_Cincy

02-04-2003, 12:43 PM

He should have given the money to a worthwhile charity. The government probably wasted it all.

#### leonard

02-04-2003, 12:55 PM

eg8r I found Bill a little juvenile he was probably listening to much to Americas 14 year old, Howard Stern. I would be willing to bet that Chinas bribing started in the Nixon administration and was kept under the table until Bill let himself get caught. The only honest President in the last 50 years was Jimmy Carter, every other President probably should have been arrested and impeached but not for having sex in the White House. Reagan had made a deal with Iran to keep the hostages till after the elections to hurt Carter and get himself elected.####

#### leonard

02-04-2003, 01:00 PM

Wally,Wally it wouldn't have been the same thing. There is only one honest Charity and that is Catholic Charities and they have problems of their own.

In 2000, Intel's income before taxes was $15.1 billion dollars. They paid $4.6 billion dollars in taxes, or 30.4%

In 2001, with the computer market in relative collapse, Intel only made $2.3 billion dollars. They paid $892 million dollars in taxes, or 41% of thier income.

Source: //www.intel.com/intel/annual01/f_summary3.htm

I invite anyone else who subscribes to the popular myth that corporations don't pay taxes to look up and post the facts about any other Fortune 500 Company.

=TB

eg8r

02-04-2003, 01:15 PM

I agree they are all corrupt some way. Bill just happened to be a little more stupid about how he handled things. Every person in politics has a hidden agenda.

eg8r

TomBrooklyn

02-04-2003, 01:20 PM

There is a popular myth amongst many persons that corporations pay little or no taxes. A simple review of the facts should dispel that notion.

Another thing the corporation bashers may want to note is that the figures for Intel I quoted above don't include the billions of dollars Intel paid out to purchase material, equipment, services and land. Intel's suppliers paid taxes on the income they earned from selling stuff to Intel.

Intel also paid out billions of dollars in wages. The recipients of those wages paid income taxes on them. With the money those people had left over, they purchased stuff. They paid state sales taxes on what they purchased. They also paid taxes on their phone, electric, gas, and oil bills. They paid hidden taxes on the cigarettes and liquor they purchased and on gasoline for their cars. Some of them put money in the bank and made interest on it, which was taxed. Some purchased stock and paid taxes on the dividends and any profits they made when they sold the stock. Some of those people died and the Government taxed some of the money they had not spent and that was left in their estate.

All that money was generated, circulated and taxed over and over due to Intel and the other Fortune 500 companies and by the thousands of smaller corporations that earn profits, make purchases, and pay wages.

=TB

nAz

02-04-2003, 01:20 PM

thats mind-boggling

with a trillon +$ tax cut , war with Iraq, Economy in a trouble, Baby boomers coming to retirement age i cant help but wonder how high the deficit will climb.

scary very scary

eg8r

02-04-2003, 01:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
2001 was a bad year for selling computer chips, Intel only made $2.3 billion dollars, however, they paid $892 million dollars in taxes, or 41% of thier income.
<hr /></blockquote> Tom, I know that cheesemouses post about Fortune 500 companies makes no sense since the original post was about tax cuts for the rich. Corporations as you know and most will agree are not people so they do not get Income tax cuts which the original discussion was about. I do feel though from your post that 41% tax on revenue is a high price to pay. I also do not believe they were hit as hard as the numbers suggest...This is probably a year in which they chose to utilize some of their ealier losses and remove some of the tax burden. That 41% probably would have been even higher if losses would not have been taken into account.

eg8r

eg8r

02-04-2003, 01:46 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Neal Boortz:</font><hr> Simply stated, every time there is a major tax cut revenues to the government increase. The reason is simple. When the profit from a certain activity increases, people have a tendency to increase that activity. If a taxpayer's profit for each hour of work increases that taxpayer will be encouraged to work more hours. If the profits realized from a certain business activity increase, look for that business activity to increase. As the work hours and business activities increase not only do the profits from those activities increase, but so, too, does the total amount of taxes paid! Look, this is all so simple that almost any government high school graduate should be able to grasp it.
Secondly, the size of the deficit. To hear the Democrats describe it, the projected deficit under the Bush Budget is the biggest, most devastating deficit in the history of this country. This mornings Atlanta Journal-Constitution is referring to the Bush deficit as a record. The truth is, it just ain't so.... <hr /></blockquote>
We had a worse budget deficit under Ronald Reagan (6.0%) and George Bush sr.(4.7%). The budget deficit right now (as a % of Domestic Product) is only 2.7%. <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Neal Boortz:</font><hr> Do you see what I see? The proposed Bush deficit that the Democrats are describing as &amp;#8220;huge&amp;#8221; is actually about one-half of the deficit of the 1990&amp;#8217;s and less than one-half the deficit of the &amp;#8216;80&amp;#8217;s. Where's the Atlanta Journal-Constitution's elusive record deficit? Try 1983!

Now we wiped out that 1992 deficit not with tax increases but with the incredible technology dot com economic expansion. We killed off a 4.7% deficit. How hard can it be to eliminate a 2.7% deficit with a little economic expansion?

Yes, I have problems with the Bush budget. It's way too large. It's just sad that such vast numbers of Americans are so ignorant of basic economic principles and history that they can't understand that tax cuts increase economic activity and tax revenues, and that the true measure of a deficit is in its percentage of the total budget. <hr /></blockquote>
I would venture to say that the budget is not as bad as it seems considering that tax relief to all "tax payers" has not gone into effect (this is gauranteed revenue to the government, just take a look into the recent past) and the major military build up.

Sucks to have a deficit but I refuse to believe the liberal media that the deficit is as bad as they say.

eg8r

Sid_Vicious

02-04-2003, 02:51 PM

Repeat after me if you're are a middle class B-Boomer, "Do you want fries with that burger?"..."Do you want fries with that burger."

If you ain't in the preferred tax relief group(1%), then you ain't gonna retire quite like you figured you would. He who has the gold makes the golden rules...sid

TomBrooklyn

02-04-2003, 03:31 PM

What are you talking about Sid? Are you referring to the top 1% of earners? Do you belive the myth that high earners don't pay taxes? If so, would you mind supporting your statement with some facts or statistics? Please lay it out on the table with actual figures.

Sid_Vicious

02-04-2003, 06:32 PM

Subject: What is Politics?

A little boy goes to his dad and asks, "What is Politics?"
Dad says, "Well son, let me try to explain it this way: I'm the head of the family, so call me The President.
Your mother is the administrator of the money, so we call her the Government.
We're here to take care of your needs, so we'll call you the People.
The nanny, we'll consider her the Working Class.
And your baby brother, we'll call him the Future. Now think about that and see if it makes sense."
So the little boy goes off to bed thinking about what Dad has said.
Later that night, he hears his baby brother crying, so he gets up to check on him. He finds that the baby has severely soiled his diaper. So the little boy goes to his parent's room and finds his mother sound asleep. Not wanting to wake her, he goes to the nanny's room. Finding the door locked, he peeks in the keyhole and sees his father in bed with the nanny. He gives up and goes back to bed.
The next morning, the little boy say's to his father, "Dad, I think I understand the concept of politics now."
The father says, "Good, son, tell me in your own words what you think politics is all about."

The little boy replies, "The President is screwing the Working Class while the Government is sound asleep. The People are being ignored and the Future is in deep s**t."

mickey2

02-05-2003, 04:04 AM

Flat Tax &amp;#8211; Cui Bono ?

Ever thought who his going to benefit from a 20% flat tax? It is easy to find out, just take a look on the average tax rate. The average tax rate of the Top 10% is 22,34 ; for the Top 25% the average tax rate is 19,09 % (according to http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/pub/irs-soi/00in01rt.xls).
Therefore it&amp;#8217;s clear that even upper middle class is going to pay more if there is a flat tax system for personal income.
Has anyone thought what would happen to the working poor if there is a flat tax? There is a differing level of marginal utility for money. This means nothing else that for many persons even absolutely small change of their income has dramatic effects on their life. Small incomes are spent nearly totally for shelter, food and clothes.
This is the reason why I lot of people who favour a flat tax system propose a primary layer which is free of tax. But this is nothing else than a progressive tax rate system with two brackets! If one recognizes that survival dollars are different than wealthy dollars, why go suddenly from one extreme (paying no taxes) to the other (paying the top rate). This is what graduated rates are all about.

What is fair? Personally I believe there is no ultimate fairness for taxes, it's a political decision.

The IRS writes:
"The fairness of a tax is judged by the benefits received and the ability to pay. For a tax to be fair, people who differ according to these criteria should pay different amounts of taxes. Often, it is difficult to apply this criteria to a particular tax. Here are three examples."
Example:
"The federal income tax is levied on many kinds of income and supports a wide range of government services. In general, people with larger incomes pay more. Not all people benefit equally from government services. The income tax may be considered generally fair on the basis of income as ability to pay, but possibly less fair on the basis of benefits received."

Micky2

eg8r

02-05-2003, 06:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ever thought who his going to benefit from a 20% flat tax? <hr /></blockquote> Forgive me if I missed something, but where has the actual rate of 20% been listed? I have heard 15%. Anyways, who is going to benefit you ask, well anyone that pays higher than the flat tax. Sure the rich will be the ones benefitting, they are the ones paying in the most.

Just a question, what does the government use the taxes for? One real quick answer comes to mind and that is government agency. Any of them, but some of the big hitters that bleed it dry are Welfare, and the Education System. Now tell me this, where in our Constitution does it say the burden of the broke is to be laid upon those who can afford to pay in extra taxes? It does not say that anywhere. It also does not say that the Federal government should be taking care of the poor.

[ QUOTE ]
What is fair? Personally I believe there is no ultimate fairness for taxes, it's a political decision. <hr /></blockquote> What do you base this on. I guess since you quoted the IRS that is what you might be basing this on. Want to know what is fair? Fair is when everyone pays the exact same amount. Oh you say, it is not fair that some are rich...Well do something about it. Go back to school, get certified, do the things that helped them get to where they are. There is a very small % of rich people that received their wealth through death or lottery, the largest portion of the rich got there through hard work. Lets say, once when you were a child you brought some neat gadget to school that your parents bought you. Well one of the other students in school did not get as many presents as you because their parents felt other things are more important and did not have enough money to buy that many Christmas presents. So, given the teacher knows this information, she decides to break off 35% of your gadget and hand it to the poor child. Well, the poor childs family never paid taxes that year because they quit school and got pregnant too young and have to work as a gas station attendant. Their kid just received a free toy because the other family decided that a good education and a good job was more important than the bowling league and pool league and beer and cigarettes (I am not alienating anyone here as long as you can afford these items and are not on welfare). OK, I am sure you have a problem with this analogy because maybe one of the parents lost their job, maybe laid off. Well now, instead of receiving this handout they will also go down and receive un-employment. They will not bother to look for another job until the unemployment runs out because they want to "get back" at their old job and make them pay for laying them off.

It is funny to see the peoples faces at work when they invite me out to the clubs and such and I have to decline because I have another job to go to (I started my own company and work very hard to keep it growing). They are the ones crying broke all the time, however there is always enough money for them to go out and get lottery tickets, alcohol and cigarettes. If the poor were so worried about taxes they would quit smoking. How much more tax can you handle after paying for a pack of cigarettes.

I guess I don't show it, but I do feel sorry for the ones that need unemployment just to keep going and they are vigilantly looking for more work. I do feel sorry for the girls that were raped and got pregnant and decided to have the baby anyways, it is the babies right to live no matter the circumstances they were conceived. The problem I have is all the people that take advantage of the system. I am of full belief that they system is abused more than it helps. I also believe people who were successful and then fall on hard times are able to pick themselves back up and work hard again to get to where they were before. The problem is that our system panders to the lazy who become satisfied with handouts.

eg8r

Wally_in_Cincy

02-05-2003, 07:31 AM

eg8r,

I think you may have misinterpreted his post. He pasted it here because it had a couple of interesting perpectives on the tax system.

A national sales tax answers that dilemma. Those with money will buy, those with little will buy little. Even the elicit drug money will be taxed, but most importantly the rate of taxation can be adjusted merely by a realization of an actual overall income of sales within a year, then the rate is up'd or lower'd to get the ball rolling. Mr. 1% wants a cigarette boat or a new home in the country or a caviar dinner, fine. Mr. Me wants Golden Coral and last year's mortgage, I don't pay because my income limits it, very easy and fair. Eliminate income tax, exclude unprepared food from the sales tax(and THAT"S ALL) no loopholes left for the accountants and we're set...sid

Ward

02-05-2003, 10:21 AM

Ed

Take a run to North Dallas, Plano, Richardson, Frisco. There are a ton of well educated, certified people who are looking for work...BTW your employer pays unemployment insurance not you....

Later

nAz

02-05-2003, 12:44 PM

eheheee funny.

eg8r

02-05-2003, 12:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
BTW your employer pays unemployment insurance not you <hr /></blockquote> Almost completely correct. My employer takes a % of income that would normally go to me and it is put towards the unemployment account. The part that I absolutely to help pay for is the Agency that runs unemployment and all the salaries that go along with it.

eg8r

eg8r

02-05-2003, 12:50 PM

Yes sir they did get beat. LOL, that is an understatment. Man, the first time in school history they are ranked number 1 and they lose it right away. Good game though I missed it. I was watching the Nova show on PBS called "Battle of the X Planes". A great show that talked about our contract win over Boeing and their ugly plane. LOL

eg8r

TomBrooklyn

02-05-2003, 01:29 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr>Almost completely correct. My employer takes a % of income that would normally go to me and it is put towards the unemployment account. <hr /></blockquote>You are making the type of connection that a lot of people tend to overlook, eg8r. The expenses that a business incurs due to taxes of any sort reduce the size of the pie that is available to be paid in wages.

How about this concept? A business owner is prohibited from laying himself off and collecting unemployment. The agency says it is not allowed, presumably because it would be too easy for a small business owner to abuse. There is no consideration allowed even to the owner of seasonal businesses, even though the regular employees can collect unemployment.

I'm willing to go along with that part, but then it would follow that the owners salary would not be assessed to pay into the fund, right? Wrong. The Unemployment Agency still assess the business owners salary's and requires the company to pay it into the unemployment fund, even though the owner will never be allowed to collect.

Call up someone who works for the Unemployment Department and ask them about it. Their typical employee will agree with you that it is a wrong and abusive tax. However, they will tell you they can't help it; they didn't make the law, they just enforce it.

eg8r

02-05-2003, 10:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You are making the type of connection that a lot of people tend to overlook, eg8r. The expenses that a business incurs due to taxes of any sort reduce the size of the pie that is available to be paid in wages.
<hr /></blockquote> I can gaurantee you there are a lot of people that overlook this. Another "tax" on your income is the 7/65% that the company is forced to match. This is money that is used to reduce salary. There are so many other things that it is crazy.

Talking about unemployment...My personal business is based in Florida and under Fl unemployment laws, you must pay into unemployment if you have 5 or more employees (I think this number is correct although it might go as high as 7). The small business owner has 3 choices: 1. Pay the unemployment tax and reduce it from Net Income. 2. Reduce overall payroll by the same percentage of tax thus getting their money back. 3. Open up seperate entities and reduce the number of employees in each one thus getting below the minimum employee quantity required to pay the tax. If option 3 is used 9 times out of 10, the employee sees the difference in a higher wage. This is pretty simple, the money has to come from somewhere and since the business is getting taxed everywhere else the easiest way to pay for the unemployment tax is to reduce salaries. Yup it sucks and maybe the lower/poor think the business is stealing from them, but it all falls back on BIG GOVERNMENT. If you need a description of which party is in favor of Big Government then just ask.

eg8r

Gayle in MD

02-05-2003, 11:50 PM

Hello dear friend, How are you? Always good to read your posts. I agree, Jimmy Carter was probably the most honest president in my lifetime, up till now, and still living a life of contributing to the needy. What a couple, the Carters...
Nice hearing from you...
Gayle in Md.

jjinfla

02-10-2003, 07:06 PM

You are wasting your time Egr8. People will believe what they have been brainwashed to believe. It's always the Rich who are the bad guys. But of course what they mean is that it is only the Rich who are Republicans who are the bad guys, never the Rich Democrats. And there sure are a lot of them. Or it's the Oil. He got his money from all his oil friends. LOL. Many politicians are rich people, and so are many Hollywood stars, or music stars. So just who are these so called bad rich people? Bill Gates? It must be, because without him we probably wouldn't be in the computer age and we wouldn't be having this discussion. Jake

nAz

02-11-2003, 03:24 AM

without Bill Gates we might have a good OP sys.
damn that guys never had an original software idea in his life, he was just smart enough to buy out the right software writers! god i wish i thought of it first!

LINUX rules!

TomBrooklyn

04-02-2003, 02:11 PM

The Pope is visiting DC and President Bush takes him out for an afternoon on the Potomac...sailing on the Presidential yacht, the Sequoia.They're admiring the sights when, all of a sudden, the Pope's zucchetto (hat)blows off his head and out into the water. Secret Service guys start to launch a boat, but Bush waves them off, saying "Wait, wait. I'll take care of this. Don't worry." Bush then steps off the yacht onto the surface of the water and walks out to the Holy Father's little hat, bends over and picks it up, then walks back to the yacht and climbs aboard. He hands the hat to the Pope amid stunned silence.

The next morning, the Washington Post carries a story, with front page photos, of the event. The banner headline is "Bush Can't Swim."