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Exactly! If no one is offended, then no one is paying attention. The "blowback" from this campaign more than justified it's existence. The job of HIV prevention is not, and should not, be an easy one. Sadly, people think that clicking on their mouse constitutes activism.

The word "active" is right in there. Would be terrific if some of the young people who complain that the Olds have all the say took their turn at the megaphone. And not via online rants, but by actually doing something.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

Joe, I never said anything about LTS. I admire and value many LTS. Not you of course, but many. My post has nothing to do with LTS though, and its only your desire to call out to the aidsmeds cartel by misquoting me which has even brought up the group. What I said was that we shouldn't petition Larry Kramer ("a septagenarian") to discuss what young gay men need to hear. This isn't rocket science. We wouldn't dream of asking New Yorkers why Californians build their homes in areas prone to wildfires. It goes without saying that 50 year olds have little to contribute regarding the issue of why 22 year olds can't graduate college in four years. For some reason, in the topsy-turvy world of HIV prevention, we seem to solicit the opinions of everyone but the people we're supposedly trying to educate.

Joe, 99% of what you write is worthless, it really is. Its melodramatic, self-centered and just plain malicious. You manipulate emotions, but you never inspire or teach. Everything is always about you, all the time. I've had you on block for so long that I'd almost forgotten you were alive. I would've ignored your prattle here but experience has taught me that you can't let sleeping dogs lie. You absolutely had to jump a discussion I was having and attack me for things I never said. I didn't want to see you hijack yet another thread and turn it into a discussion of how I've victimized you with things I never said. What is it that causes you to do this? "Compassion"? "Empathy"? "What you're trying to do"? "Boasting about once a day dosing"? WTF are you even talking about? Joe, my points were that lying to uninfected 20 somethings makes them doubt the truths we tell them. My second point was that we shouldn't be asking 70 year olds about what 20 year olds think. These are reasonable concerns to anyone. What possible value is there in anything that you've written, but your attempt to tear me down? Get a life dude.

I'm speechless, you really are a nasty individual aren't you..reported.

Joe, I never said anything about LTS. I admire and value many LTS. Not you of course, but many. My post has nothing to do with LTS though, and its only your desire to call out to the aidsmeds cartel by misquoting me which has even brought up the group. What I said was that we shouldn't petition Larry Kramer ("a septagenarian") to discuss what young gay men need to hear. This isn't rocket science. We wouldn't dream of asking New Yorkers why Californians build their homes in areas prone to wildfires. It goes without saying that 50 year olds have little to contribute regarding the issue of why 22 year olds can't graduate college in four years. For some reason, in the topsy-turvy world of HIV prevention, we seem to solicit the opinions of everyone but the people we're supposedly trying to educate.

Joe, 99% of what you write is worthless, it really is. Its melodramatic, self-centered and just plain malicious. You manipulate emotions, but you never inspire or teach. Everything is always about you, all the time. I've had you on block for so long that I'd almost forgotten you were alive. I would've ignored your prattle here but experience has taught me that you can't let sleeping dogs lie. You absolutely had to jump a discussion I was having and attack me for things I never said. I didn't want to see you hijack yet another thread and turn it into a discussion of how I've victimized you with things I never said. What is it that causes you to do this? "Compassion"? "Empathy"? "What you're trying to do"? "Boasting about once a day dosing"? WTF are you even talking about? Joe, my points were that lying to uninfected 20 somethings makes them doubt the truths we tell them. My second point was that we shouldn't be asking 70 year olds about what 20 year olds think. These are reasonable concerns to anyone. What possible value is there in anything that you've written, but your attempt to tear me down? Get a life dude.

WTF, you've just earned yourself another Time Out. It's your second one in a very short period of time. We already knew you don't like Joe from the first time around. And you don't have to like him. But neither you nor anyone else is going to be permitted to launch the kind of attack you've let loose in here.

I'm giving you a 30 day Time Out. During that time you can consider whether your membership is worth enough to you to control your behavior and to act accordingly.

I will also mention that some have responded here in kind which had me considering about handing out other Time Outs. Just because one member goes rogue is not an excuse for others to drop the principle of civilized discourse in here. Don't do it again. Snarky is snarky even if someone else started it.

jeez, a few of you have leaped off the deep end... i don't have any problem with the ad, looks catered to young urban gays, some cute guys... looks meant to scare, i wish i had been scared.... kramer didn't say anything all that offensive to me

lts... where would i be without yall? lost in the woods with no trail, compass, or guide

a couple of you... need a serious reality check

kill/joe... much respect sir, this isn't the first time i've noticed your postings

If YOU get Ignored, you will be having this conversation more or less alone

That is so true and so the real challenge as others have said is finding whatever mechanism might get the target audience not only to listen to but also identify with the actual message being delivered ---While many of them might understand the 'risks' on an intellectual level the fact such a large percentage are in denial with respect to their sexual activity presents a challenge in getting them to believe that they personally have anything to worry about.

Exactly! If no one is offended, then no one is paying attention. The "blowback" from this campaign more than justified it's existence.

I think this thread provides ample evidence for the fact someone is paying attention. And while Larry Kramer may have been guilty of hyperbole to his credit he does have the ability not only to gain people's attention and force them to pay attention. I do wish at points the discussion was a little more objective and less personalized although given the experiences we have all had it is understandable.

I think the only "solution" are all solutions. "Nice" ads, in-your-face ads, speakers, education programs, etc, etc. Every one of those methods will reach a few and each "few" adds up. and yes, sadly, until there's a vaccine or cure or a mass cultural change, nothing we can say or show will totally reach everyone. but that's nothing new either. every advertising agency in the world understands that. why do you think ads are rotated around all the time? Why are they "assuring" at times, and "radical" at others? Because all those ways bring in a few customers at a time - and that's all they can really hope for.

The same challenges which apply to treatment apply to prevention -- unfortunately there is no magic bullet And it is only by providing a mechanism for allowing everyone to actively participate -- whether through civil discussion or with a bull horn in hand -- we will continue to make progress toward discovering and identifying solutions which work.

WTF, you've just earned yourself another Time Out. It's your second one in a very short period of time. We already knew you don't like Joe from the first time around. And you don't have to like him. But neither you nor anyone else is going to be permitted to launch the kind of attack you've let loose in here. I'm giving you a 30 day Time Out. During that time you can consider whether your membership is worth enough to you to control your behavior and to act accordingly.

I will also mention that some have responded here in kind which had me considering about handing out other Time Outs. Just because one member goes rogue is not an excuse for others to drop the principle of civilized discourse in here. Don't do it again. Snarky is snarky even if someone else started it.

Andy, I can't help that this is inherently unfair and that one member has been singled out. I don't agree with personal attacks being thrown around, but it feels as though some members like nothing more than a barney and should sometimes have the intellect to step away from a thread.

First, I'd establish whether the ad's target audience really thinks HIV is an easy to manage disease. I suspect most kids these days don't, although let me volunteer that at 29 I'm pretty far removed from their mindset. Operating off the radical belief that they haven't missed 30 years of fear-based sex ed, horror stories about "super aids", that they're not blind to the physical side effects of HIV medications, I'd begin asking questions. "Why do you think you can trust the self-proclaimed serostatus of a stranger you meet on a website called barebackrealtime?" "What was it that lead you to believe you'd use a condom correctly, every time, when drunk?" If you didn't feel safe, why didn't you navigate your behavior towards safer activities?" "Did you wonder how you were going to pay for it?" What do you mean you haven't had sex?*" "Why did you think that a man you'd been with for three weeks was trustworthy enough to ditch condoms with?" "What do you mean you didn't know you could get HIV from a single unprotected encounter?"

I'd educate, as necessary, from there. The variety of answers might not fit comfortably into a 2 minute soundbite on television, but I think it'd be more effective than restating the obvious and expecting a different result.

WOW--did someone just figure out the knowledge--by itself-- does NOT equal behavior change? That information must be considered, considered relevant and integrated into behavior before it can be a catalyst for change?

All I know is that I made objective comments about these ads in the media and within AIDS advocacy groups and I caught holy hell for not being enraged by this 'homophobic and fear mongering' campaign. ehhhh whatever.

I guess its a matter of taste how well you receive these ad campains and no doubt some of the criticism this ad garnerd are political . I personally find the ad truthful and realistically demonstrates my experience with HIV . HIV has had a domino effect on my life and to a lesser extent my family's life has been effected also .

As Jonathan said, there appears to be a disconnect, between intellectually processing an HIV PSA and getting it to register in the right places. I have done numerous HIV drug/PSA focus groups and the question that always baffles the panel is: "What did you need to hear, for you to understand that you could be at risk of contracting HIV?" Everyone has an answer for what they needed to hear AFTER they tested poz, but they could not identify a main theme or message type that would have worked prior to infection. I find HIV prevention work to be the most challenging, because you are attempting to connect with a wide age audience, which knows little about HIV and solicit their suggestions, on how to reach them, when they do not even realize the real danger that HIV represents.

I think it is also important to understand the climate in which most prevention messages have been presented. With HIV being the "gay plague" and gays being consistently vilified, HIV often becomes just another "mark of the beast", something to be shunned and only talked about in private. So in a climate, where your being gay marks you as an abomination, the very people who vilify you are trying to protect you from a "gay disease". HIV has remained so intertwined with gay that it is almost impossible to separate the two and that is a real issue, that we seem unable to address.

I believe that for prevention messages to become truly effective, we must move HIV into the disease column and leave it there, as it has nothing to do with being gay. But given the history of HIV prevention messages and the stigma of both the disease and gays, I find it very easy to understand how many young gay males must feel, that HIV is inevitable, simply because I'm gay and the two just go together.

But given the history of HIV prevention messages and the stigma of both the disease and gays, I find it very easy to understand how many young gay males must feel, that HIV is inevitable, simply because I'm gay and the two just go together.

Do young gay men really feel that way? I didn't feel that way growing up in the 80's when things were a lot more mysterious and hopeless. I still can't wrap my brain around the concept that urban gay men think HIV is no big deal. I have never met anyone for whom HIV wasn't a big deal. Is there anyone on this forum who felt that way?

I freely admit that I don't know much about young, urban gay men. I do know that part of adolescent thinking, which people in their 20s sometimes still have, is a feeling of invulnerability. Most young people don't really believe that something bad like HIV or an auto accident is going to happen to them unless they have already experienced a traumatic event. Also it is not like societies haven't been trying to stop people from even having sex outside of marriage for thousands of years. Getting young people to be sexually responsible is difficult even without HIV.

Personally, I believe the general public needs both messages. Scare tactics about the seriousness of HIV, and information about how "manageable" it can be. Both. And they are a bit contradictory.

Members of the public who can't deal with seemingly contradictory messages - well touch shit. Since both messages are true, at least the confused person will have thought a moment or two about one message!

Better than nothing.

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“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

And maybe some of you here could stop worrying if your own personal story is validated or invalidated by news or education campaigns. As long as its mostly true, true for enough people, isn't that good enough? You know, specialists - and we HIV+ people in this forum are a bit overly interested parties - easily find fault with generalists. You can't expect fine details all the time in the general idea, mass market media. Some kinds of media are about broad strokes.

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“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

IMHO, the more we get the word out, whether it be shock based or not the better the chances of getting some results.

However, yes, Knowledge does not equal change in behavior. We are dealing with Human Behavior which inspite of our highly evolved brains cannot be trained as easily as say a pet bird, dog, etc.. humans know that smoking can cause Cancer and kill you, yet we still smoke. We know that drinking and driving can kill you, yet we still kill ourselves everyday on our highways bombed out of our minds. And yes, humans still have unsafe sex inspite of the consequences that we know can happen.

The pleasure center of the human mind is a monumental force to overcome and can supercede any rational thinking. Just ask an addict. I'm not saying everyone who is HIV+ is a sex addict..I'm merely pointing out that sex is a huge pleasure and at times can shut out the rational part of our brains..ie, "I dont have a condom but he is so hot and Im so horny and I'm sure once will be OK inspite of that picure I saw of anal cancer".

I'm not sure there is a silver bullet, but as someone else said we need to use all the weapons in our arsenal whatever htey may be.

To touch on the subject of "one pill a day". Well in a matter of a week I went from "one pill a day bliss" to 5 pills a day (all HIV meds), not counting the Vitamin D and Multi vitamins I now have to take. Oh and the wonderfuly painful process of injecting a 1.5" needle of Testosterone in my leg (not saying HIv causes Low T, jsut saying in my case it it at least partly indicated because of HIV). Last but definitly not least my subpar Kidneys that have emerged since taking Truvada. Which now I am burdeneded with the anxiety of having to potentially switch meds again. But guess what, I could have avoided most if not all of this stuff If I had just used a condom. I knew better, and I'm not sure the NYC ad or any ad for that matter might have changed things. Maybe, yes, but I cannot unequivocaly say it would have stopped that one encounter.

Seriously? I honestly think we're never going to really get anywhere with prevention messages until we get rid of the shame that surrounds sexual intercourse.

I don't get that shame at all. It's something nearly everyone in the world does and without it we wouldn't even be here. Until people start being more sex-positive, we're going to keep on getting more and more people who are hiv-positive. I believe shame is the number one driver of on-going hiv infection.

Prevention messages never seem to talk about how to correctly use condoms. They never seem to talk about how to negotiate for condom use - and this is a very difficult thing for many.

I could go on and on and hopefully I'll be able to come back to this thread later tonight or tomorrow morning, but I've got to be elsewhere shortly.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Seriously? I honestly think we're never going to really get anywhere with prevention messages until we get rid of the shame that surrounds sexual intercourse.

I don't get that shame at all. It's something nearly everyone in the world does and without it we wouldn't even be here. Until people start being more sex-positive, we're going to keep on getting more and more people who are hiv-positive. I believe shame is the number one driver of on-going hiv infection.

Prevention messages never seem to talk about how to correctly use condoms. They never seem to talk about how to negotiate for condom use - and this is a very difficult thing for many.

I could go on and on and hopefully I'll be able to come back to this thread later tonight or tomorrow morning, but I've got to be elsewhere shortly.

Amen. I would add the extra shame around gay intercourse! Maybe if we approached prevention from a sex-positive point of view, people would listen. How about a poster that says "no matter how hot you are, if you are HIV + a lot of people won't want to sleep with you"? Or maybe put positive in your online profile on Manhunt and see how quickly the responses come?.

If one looks at the report and specifically the first graph you can see the huge drop in the number of infections per year from the early 80's to early 90's. I am sure the decline can be attributed to gaining more knowledge about HIV and the success of early prevention programs. Since the early 90's new infections have been been fairly constant with the exception of a couple year spike before lowering somewhat. CDC projected new infections to remain constant the following 3 yrs, 2009. With that fact in mind and please understand I am not advocating reducing prevention programs, 1 person being infected is 1 too many, I do wonder if there is a segment of the population whose behavior and thinking will never change no matter what is tried. Prevention is not a lost cause my any means. We must be diligent and use a variety of approaches, this ad being one, in making sure the rate of new infections do not increase and hope an impact is made upon those most difficult to reach.

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"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it." Nelson Mandela

Seriously? I honestly think we're never going to really get anywhere with prevention messages until we get rid of the shame that surrounds sexual intercourse.

I don't get that shame at all. It's something nearly everyone in the world does and without it we wouldn't even be here. Until people start being more sex-positive, we're going to keep on getting more and more people who are hiv-positive. I believe shame is the number one driver of on-going hiv infection.

Prevention messages never seem to talk about how to correctly use condoms. They never seem to talk about how to negotiate for condom use - and this is a very difficult thing for many.

I could go on and on and hopefully I'll be able to come back to this thread later tonight or tomorrow morning, but I've got to be elsewhere shortly.

Another excellent point regarding the shame of sex, but this is America we are talking about. A country that fines CBS for showing a nanosecond of Janet Jackson's boob, while offering ring side tickets for $5k to watch two men beat each other to a pulp. Violence is great, but sex??? NO! So much of the culture centers on aggression, rather than interpersonal experiences and that extends to the views regarding sex and sexuality. I believe it was just recently that you could show an actual woman, wearing a bra in a commercial. We have restaurants called "Hooters", but you can't show a woman wearing a bra on TV? Huh?

Nor can you ignore the influence of religion/society, which often preaches that sex is merely a way to have children and should only be done with that intention in mind. Ignoring human sexuality, our prevention messages consist of a abstinence only option, that has little bearing in reality. Sex has been removed from people, as if is was an accessory and not factory installed and once removed, it is very hard to reintegrate the whole concept of sex is natural and there are ways to enjoy it safely.

Amen. I would add the extra shame around gay intercourse! Maybe if we approached prevention from a sex-positive point of view, people would listen. How about a poster that says "no matter how hot you are, if you are HIV + a lot of people won't want to sleep with you"? Or maybe put positive in your online profile on Manhunt and see how quickly the responses come?.

I totally agree. When I watched the advert for the first time and it said "it's not just HIV", I wasn't immediately thinking of medical complications or the number of pills - I thought the advert would center on stigmatization, discrimination and criminalization. The prospect of invisible fences and sudden loss of attractivity would serve just as good as a prevention message, possibly even more for a 20 y/o.

How about a poster that says "no matter how hot you are, if you are HIV + a lot of people won't want to sleep with you"? Or maybe put positive in your online profile on Manhunt and see how quickly the responses come?.

with all the good intentions and the clever advertising techniques available to the professional media, there is still one unbending truth that is worth repeating overwhelmingly people see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear....inherently reject all else around them.... that may be socially based, religously based or have not particular basis at all..... may even be hard wired into the psyche ..... the message about HIV or just about any other topic has be be something that clears the hurdles of "seeing and hearing what you want ...." I am sure it varies from group to group, age to age and even from person to person....

so in my mind all of these messages will resonate with someone... as already pointed out the drop in infection rates says some body got the message now the challenge seems to be how to reach those that didnt get it....

I am certainly not an expert on what 20 somethings want to see and hear I usually change the channel when that stuff comes on but there seems to be a marketing group that is very successful in "selling " to that particular group ... as well as other demographics..... so I would certainly see a need to get the "powers" in charge of the various "prevention" programs to recognize that mass marketing is an art form with very wide and diverse approaches depending on the audience.... of course that means that the funding for such ventures must be there....

is there anyone actually in charge with authority/ funding to do that type of program??? does your representative consider such programs a priority for action/ funding ??ask them or better yet tell them what you expect.....

As a definitely aging gay intellectual (though two years short of a septuagenarian!) and someone who was there at the beginning, I believe it's about time the truth is told in this ad. HIV-positives today may have been saved from the deadly opportunistic infections of the early years of the epidemic by HAART, but they are now beginning to see the ramifications of long-time (and, in some cases, relatively brief) HIV infection and/or antiretroviral use. There has been much recent (but only recent) observation and interest in the hastening and acceleration of the aging process among HIV-positives: brain fog, neurocognitive difficulties, cardiovascular problems, bone problems, co-morbidities and cancers (lung, liver, anal, lymphoma, etc.). It is possible that 30-, 40-, 50-, and 60-year-old bodies are succumbing to the medical depredations of 80-year-olds.

Sure it's true that osteoporosis is a disease of the elderly, but what is it when it keeps occuring in relatively young HIV-positives? Full-blown dementia may no longer be as prominent as it was, but what is it when so many HIV-positives are beginning to complain of "brain fog"? Yes, anal cancer is caused by HPV, but why are there now 174 annual cases per 100,000 among HIV-positive gay men, but 40 cases per 100,000 among HIV-negative gay men, and 2 per 100,000 in the general population? It used to take many years for anal cancer to develop from HPV-related lesions; now the many years have become few.

It is disgraceful that GMHC and GLAAD are condemning this video campaign. I remember in 1982, when I was trying to edit for GMHC what would have been the first publication about GRID (Gay-Related Imuno-Deficiency, as it was then known), and the board of GMHC (EXCEPT for the estimable Larry Kramer), opposed to promoting safer-sex campaigns, said that "we can't tell people how to have sex." They have truly learned nothing.

« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 10:20:01 PM by edfu »

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"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

We can and should tell young people that HIV is very bad and they don't want to get it, but we can do that without condemning or stigmatizing people who already have HIV. And we can and should tell people with HIV that a diagnosis is not the end of their lives, that they still pursue their dreams and seek everything anyone else can extract from life without sending a message to young people that HIV is no big deal.

We need to convey both of these messages, at the same time, and not let one negate or diminish the other.

We can and should tell young people that HIV is very bad and they don't want to get it, but we can do that without condemning or stigmatizing people who already have HIV. And we can and should tell people with HIV that a diagnosis is not the end of their lives, that they still pursue their dreams and seek everything anyone else can extract from life without sending a message to young people that HIV is no big deal.

We need to convey both of these messages, at the same time, and not let one negate or diminish the other.

How about a poster that says "no matter how hot you are, if you are HIV + a lot of people won't want to sleep with you"?

Sorry, but IMHO this would be completely counter-productive. It's precisely the reason many people don't get tested and the main reason people lie about their status or don't reveal their status when in unsafe sexual situations.

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"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

I'm totally hot and there ARE quite a few men who want to sleep with me who know my hiv status. The men I speak of are hiv negative (or at least they think they are - so many NEVER TEST). Socially, hiv is mainly what YOU make of it. If you are obsessed with your infection and paranoid about your infection, so will be the people you attract. It's just how it is. I know this through first-hand experience.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

I'm totally hot and there ARE quite a few men who want to sleep with me who know my hiv status. The men I speak of are hiv negative (or at least they think they are - so many NEVER TEST). Socially, hiv is mainly what YOU make of it. If you are obsessed with your infection and paranoid about your infection, so will be the people you attract. It's just how it is. I know this through first-hand experience.

I waited until I was very POZ to go through my promiscuous stage. Well, my FIRST one at any rate. The decade is young, still.

But for the Klub Kidz, the D/D free crowd, it can seriously mess up a tweak-ed out guy's Saturday Night on Manhunt.

What HIV does seem to require is that people grow up a little earlier than they wanted to, no matter how old they are when they test positive.

Granted, it does not always happen. There's an App for that (GrindR), a bottle, pills, whatever. But after a few years of being positive, most folks with HIV sort of sidle up to the grownups' table.

As for what this can bring to the HIV prevention battle, I have no idea.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."