On 11/01/2011 gordoste wrote:
However carrots do still have a place at some crags. Any bolt replacements at Buffalo (and they will be needed) should be stainless carrots as they are definitely part of the experience there. Sometimes you can't see them from the ground even if you know where to look. There can definitely be a sense of setting off into the great grey yonder... and I'm sure you've "enjoyed" clipping a carrot while balanced on a slab. It always seems to take an age ... find plate in chalkbag, put it on, grab a draw, clip it, pull up rope, clip it. For some reason your footholds suddenly seem a lot better as soon as you make the clip, especially when facing a 5m fall/slide down gritty less-than-vertical rock.

>On 11/01/2011 kieranl wrote:>>Definitely disagree. Fiddling hangers on overdriven carrots at Buffalo>>was always the pits. Try the first one Beg, Borrow or Steal. Overdriven>>and the only thing between you and the ground a dodgy cam a long way>off.>>Contrived danger like that is just rubbish.>>I'm quite happy for any carrots I've placed there to be replaced by FHs,>>rings or whatever.>>On 11/01/2011 gordoste wrote:>>The overdriven part is a flaw in the placement of particular bolts, not>the carrot in general.>>And of course it's contrived - if you want less danger just place more>bolts! Same with trad - it's a conscious decision NOT to place bolts.>>IMO the carrot is a good compromise between trad and sport on unprotectable>terrain.>>But the biggest plus with carrots IMO is that you really can't see them.>Have a look at Jo Goding's climbs on the Mothballs (which he has admitted>were a mistake). Then tell me you want rows of rings on all those lovely>clean slabs at the Hump and the Horn.>>>On 11/01/2011 nmonteith wrote:>There are normal ringbolts - then there are Joe's monster u-bolts. Don't>get the two mixed up.

The one tick that carrots get from me is their low visibility in public areas such as the summit blocks on The Horn.
"Sometimes you can't see them from the ground even if you know where to look. There can definitely be a sense of setting off into the great grey yonder".
The first ascent party didn't have this problem. They knew exactly where the bolts were. Why should repeat parties have to experience the horror of missing a crucial bolt?

On 11/01/2011 kieranl wrote:>The one tick that carrots get from me is their low visibility in public>areas such as the summit blocks on The Horn.>"Sometimes you can't see them from the ground even if you know where to>look. There can definitely be a sense of setting off into the great grey>yonder".>The first ascent party didn't have this problem. They knew exactly where>the bolts were. Why should repeat parties have to experience the horror>of missing a crucial bolt?

They won't.
I repeated Peroxide Blonde recently (last w/end), and was astonished to see that the original four bolts have grown to become seven since I last did it (not counting the DBB),... ; though as a partial mitigation, the original aid bolt placed by P.W. on The Pintle, I noticed, has been chopped...
~> nett result = +2

As an aside, I was also a bit dismayed to see the amount of use the lookout has received from climbers, since the dedicated twin belay bolts were added (nett = +4 now), and sometimes not used?
~> It would not surprise me if our credibility becomes diminished-

On 11/01/2011 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>On 11/01/2011 kieranl wrote:>>The first ascent party didn't have this problem. They knew exactly where>>the bolts were. Why should repeat parties have to experience the horror>>of missing a crucial bolt?>>They won't.>I repeated Peroxide Blonde recently (last w/end), and was astonished to>see that the original four bolts have grown to become seven since I last
I was meaning the FA of any route with rap-placed carrots don't have the problem of struggling to find the carrots (usually). I wasn't referring to Peroxide Blonde specifically. I always thought the start of that could have done with a bolt, getting to the first bolt was always a bit dodgy but that would make 5 bolts not 7.
I think the bolt on Pintle was chopped in the bolting wars of the early 70s.

On 11/01/2011 kieranl wrote:>The one tick that carrots get from me is their low visibility in public>areas such as the summit blocks on The Horn.>"Sometimes you can't see them from the ground even if you know where to>look. There can definitely be a sense of setting off into the great grey>yonder".>The first ascent party didn't have this problem. They knew exactly where>the bolts were. Why should repeat parties have to experience the horror>of missing a crucial bolt?

It's not a problem. Everybody has an idea of where the bolts are due to the topo. If I miss a bolt it's because I'm an idiot and not concentrating enough.

I am talking about SS carrots, glue-in or bash-in. Would be interested on whether people think glue-ins or bash-ins are better and why.

Fixed hangers are acceptable also as they are invisible from a distance (except when the sun catches them) but shouldn't be used in highly visible areas (e.g. right next to walking tracks).

U's and rings are visible from a long way off and IMO have no place at Buffalo.

BTW Joe Goding did also put up a few slab routes at the Hump, I believe they have FHs or carrots (I haven't looked at them myself) but I guess he learnt from the mistake.

>I repeated Peroxide Blonde recently (last w/end), and was astonished to>see that the original four bolts have grown to become seven since I last>did it (not counting the DBB),...

Any idea when this happened or who did it? The start may have been a wee bit comitting, but side runner in the Pintle's last pitch was also possible if you were that way inclined. Given its location (right under a big lookout) I would have thought that adding additional bolts was rather contentious. Especially when this route was under scrutiny from rangers not that long ago (they didn't like people anchoring off the railing on the lookout).

On 12/01/2011 gordoste wrote:>I am talking about SS carrots, glue-in or bash-in. Would be interested>on whether people think glue-ins or bash-ins are better and why.
-- Old news mate - bashins can be great or bad, glue-ins once tested, should be more reliable

>Fixed hangers are acceptable also as they are invisible from a distance>(except when the sun catches them)
--Old news once again, unfortunately hangers are very visible, even more so than a proper Ubolt (not one of Joe's massive ones I've heard about).

On 12/01/2011 ajfclark wrote:>Yeah, I'd be disappointed to find more bolts in PB...

Why? Clipping them isn't compulsory.

I have a solution for hard core bold leaders like yourself. Look at the slab, decide how many bolts you think it needs for anyone but a pussy sport climber, then take just that number of draws and boltplates. Nice and committing way to climb, that. I do it all the time to toughen myself up.

Seriously though, I'm not a super confident leader and was really happy to have led that with the 5 bolts it had when I did it. I'd like other people to share that experience I guess. I'll see if I can get to it in the next couple of weeks and see if it has a significantly different character (or if it already had the bolts m9 is talking about and I missed some last time)...

On 12/01/2011 gordoste wrote:>>It's not a problem. Everybody has an idea of where the bolts are due to>the topo. If I miss a bolt it's because I'm an idiot and not concentrating>enough.>

You'd trust the buffalo guidebook that much? In fact, in general, i would say most topos are complete guestimations as to where the bolts are and are the scale so small relative to the length of the climbing that the little x marks the spot would be 5m2 on the cilff.

No one can see the Hump except when they go to climb it or go for a nice long bush bash. And surely they'd see the rap chains before any bolts if they could.

On 12/01/2011 gfdonc wrote:>>>I repeated Peroxide Blonde recently (last w/end), and was astonished>>to>>>see that the original four bolts have grown to become seven since I>last>>>did it (not counting the DBB),...>>Yes the start was committing, but you could put a runner in Pintle or>tie a knot in the abseil rope.>>I've led it twice those ways, I was kinda looking forward to doing it>one day without this trickery ..>
The interesting thing is ..., that the start is still 'interesting'!, ie I wouldn't want to fall at or about / while clipping the first bolt.

On 12/01/2011 mikllaw wrote:>On 12/01/2011 gordoste wrote:>>I am talking about SS carrots, glue-in or bash-in. Would be interested>>on whether people think glue-ins or bash-ins are better and why.> -- Old news mate - bashins can be great or bad, glue-ins once tested,>should be more reliable

That's pretty much what I figured but I didn't know for sure, hence the question.

>>Fixed hangers are acceptable also as they are invisible from a distance>>(except when the sun catches them) > --Old news once again, unfortunately hangers are very visible, even>more so than a proper Ubolt (not one of Joe's massive ones I've heard about).

Point taken, but I would still prefer if like is replaced with like. Although I wouldn't get fired up enough to chop anything unless it was really ugly.

So I guess you could say that anything goes, however if someone started replacing all the carrots with u-bolts or rings it would be quite upsetting.

On 13/01/2011 One Day Hero wrote:>On 12/01/2011 tnd wrote:>>On 12/01/2011 ajfclark wrote:>>>Yeah, I'd be disappointed to find more bolts in PB...>>>>Why? Clipping them isn't compulsory.>>>Fuching Jeezus, I get sick of that argument!>>Shall we put an aid laddder up Eternity? "You downt haff tha clipp em>ihf yer downt warnna" (try saying that phrase a few times in your best>spastic voice, it helps drive home how stupid it is)

Doesn't change the fact that you don't have to clip anything you don't want to.