PR on the Payroll?

Had I come to ATS only to argue with people than that would not be accomplishing very much. I have learned much in posting here - even made some
alterations in my own personal views thanks to many of the fine posters. My main objective is to learn about the tactics of certain black brothers
whether they be Mason, Christians, Jews, Alien feces from Pluto… whatever. True black magic is out in the open - even money itself has this
potential and the greatest evil doers are not even people like Aleister Crowley but rather those who continue to scoff at anything so-called esoteric;
for behind many of these imposters we shall find an even more sinister motive! That motive is to bring us all down into the sphere of complete
materialism - that of cunning machines or animals, yet devoid of emotion. Does this sickness not seem to be manifesting strong in the world today and
even seen blatantly on Fox news?

As of late I have seen a trend and one in particular that compels me to write about. Certain members here (I will not name them - they know who they
are) are certainly not here to discuss any conspiracies nor are they here to learn the truth for that matter, for their only intention here shall not
be found in the intricate details of their posting.; nor even the content per se, but rather in the subtle nature which they try not to meet anyone
half-way and seemingly “post and run” - they are only interested in getting across their ONE main objective. Even more curious, I find is the
apparent lack of respect for the esoteric world; a world which I have been a part of for some time now and understand the nature with deep respect.
Even more strange is the idea that many posters here cannot possibly conceive of their groups involvement (on any level!!) of a conspiracy, yet on the
same account, fail to understand that if it were not for Masonry, the very vessel of freedom (which the church always opposed) would not have allowed
for the growth of any Supra-Masonic like organization and the other offshoots which may resemble them! I have said that many Christians are involved
– I can admit that but are we all now to assume that everything that has been written negative about the Masons came either from dumb folks,
conspiracy theorists, Jesuits, or Leo Taxil? Do we all not see something wrong with a trend of thought like this?

I’m going to be a little bit hard here but I have to tell you that I see something all too common in the Mason affiliated posters here. In history,
Masonry has come under attack by the church, particular by the Jesuits. It is a fact the Masons have had to work very hard at the PR exercises -
consider the days of the anti-Masonic party. But on this forum, I have tried to see both sides of the coin. As an Esoteric Christian if someone were
to say to me that the church was involved in a huge conspiracy, what then would be my usual response? Would it be a response which entails insulting
the poster and demanding fully cited pages of proof, complete with all footnotes and fully supported by Christian websites? Are we all this blind
today that we cannot simply look out upon the world and come to see that the Church cannot be fulfilling its objective since so much despair and tears
now fill the hearts and minds of men? Yet, when we apply a simple criticism to these other groups – like the Masons what then is their common
reaction?

Would any of you believe that to be posting in defense of only MASONRY, or ONLY the CHURCH would be VERY suspicious? Would those Masons have time for
much charity at all? Does this charity work mean staying here all day long on ATS and conducting various PR exercises against the so-called ignorant
masses? Perhaps, those Masons who insult the Muslims for feeling offended by the Mohammed cartoon could take as little lesson here? I'm not calling
any Mason a reptoid, so why the common PR reactionary movement from Masons that is most certainly not present in the same manner, with any other group
posting on ATS? Some of you had better start being more honest with yourselves – this is a conspiracy forum and I intend to rout out those of you
who “think” they are that much more cunning than the rest. I can assure you, that you are not fooling anyone.

When I look out upon the masses of humanity, I do not see Christians, or Masons or Muslims, or Jews. I do not see black, white, brown, yellow people
separated by me. I see all of us as within my home; my brothers and sisters in my house. I do not subscribe to an Israel state, or lodge or even a
particular church; for the Bible speaks of a consciousness for all man and not only for those fanatical Jews and their visions of a new Holy land.
But to blame only the Zionists is foolish. What of all those evangelistic Christians who support the nation of Israel and care nothing for those who
would want to receive the new Israel consciousness and care nothing of the devastating effect this Zionist created state has bought down onto those
dear people on both sides? So now we have the Christians and Jews supporting Israel, but what of the Roman Church? Surely they also do support
Israel and this is due to their incorrect reading of the Bible and love for communism! And what of the Masons – are they somehow the holy and
noble, innocent ones and do Masons not identify with a Holier vision than that of what your material lodge subscribes to – I certainly hope you do!

Perhaps, we need to put the matter to rest once and for all. I would appreciate a proper definition of Free-Masonry and also a definition of a
Masonic lodge without using any links, without any attacks and please, put it in your own able words. Let me tell you why I ask this question now.
Firstly, Masonry is not what it used to be. If it were, than you would be learning the Great Arcanum like Pike and spoken of by Masons like Rudolf
Steiner and others like Manly P Hall. No Mason can deny the Esoteric roots of Free-Masonry and those who do so, are either misled by innocent common
lodge practice, or are deliberately lying. I am concerned about both but disgusted by those liars ONLY and not those who are simply unaware of this
in all open honesty.

The Ford foundation is a tax-exempt foundation and can be considered many things – one of them being a lodge where good men come together bringing
all different believes and ideas and character, men who engage in wonderful charitable community work. If you do not agree with me, than I ask you to
consider that the Ford Foundation claims that they are a charitable foundation and work toward the betterment of man. There are many great people
working within the Ford Foundation – let’s not forget this! But sadly, the Ford Foundation is not acting in the best interests of mankind and in
fact, their main objective is funding terrorism and conducting massive PR operations. Now before any of you get into a fuss about this, I would like
to ask the Masons AGAIN if they still like being associated with something called a “charitable lodge”. Do you feel that a lodge can maintain its
integrity in light of the fact that everything else that has identified itself as something of this similar nature has degenerated over time – think
Red Cross, the Church! Do you realize that the Catholic Church was already finished in its proper form by the year 333 AD? The Catholic Church
removed the doctrine of reincarnation and later, they removed the idea of the Spirit and thus man now only had a Soul and a Body – but no spirit!
Do you realize that Halliburton also does charity? Is that all Masonry has to offer humanity now; charity?

The time is due for modern Masons to admit that Masonry is not what it used to be. I had to admit this myself and it was painful but you must also do
the same. Freemasonry is now an outer sheath lacking its proper contents. It has become a lodge and nothing better than any other material entity
and I’m sorry to say this, dear Masons but until you can admit Masonic Templar roots, and connections to the occult – I promise you that until the
day you die, you shall never see peace on this common issue. Until, you consider that the vast majority of these concerned people (are not hating
you) but care for all humanity, you prove that Masonry is has ALL but lost its true roots and thus its purpose. We can all stop complaining about
conspiracies now and get honest and put these matters to rest.

So, you think it somehow inappropriate for Masons to defend against unsubstantiated attacks on the Craft?

I mean, let's get serious here Markus. Almost every charge levelled against Freemasonry on this site begins with "I know this Freemason who ".
The vast majority of anti-Masonic opinion on this board is based on 2nd-hand information obtained from "a friend".

Your posts, on the other hand, are full of vague references to Masonic plots and intentions that you have NEVER substantiated with comprehensive facts
or history. Hell, you even tried to suggest that Hitler was working with the Freemasons at one point. In light of his persecution of the Brethren
(and 80,000 dead), this is clearly ridiculous.

My frustration stems from this: I am a relatively young member of Freemasonry, but I see guys like Trinityman and Masonic Light here every day -
patiently dishing out reams of information about Freemasonry. Straight from the horses mouth - yet pearls before swine. Their posts are often in
response to conspiracy theorists here who are - wait for it - trying to ascertain the truth. Their genuine attempt to be helpful is, more often than
not, labelled as "disinformation" because people like you would rather cling to your medieval fantasy of a worldwide conspiracy instituted by my
organisation, when the reality is that most Lodges are more concerned with getting their membership dues booked and the ceremonial elements of our
activities nailed properly.

We simply don't have time for baby sacrifices or the manipulation of governments.

Freemasonry remains one of the most honourable institutions in the world. Nobody has presented ANYTHING remotely based in fact which demonstrates
otherwise.

We try and do charitable things purely for their own sake - we are attacked by fundamentalist Christians.

We try to mind our own business and maintain privacy - we are attacked by paranoiacs for trying to run the world.

And here you are, trying to take it one step further and suggest that defence of our activities in the face of accusations of criminal atrocities is
inappropriate?!!

My challenge to you, or any other like-minded person here, is this:

Give the readers of ATS something... ANYTHING, based in fact, which supports the view that we do ANY of the following as an organisation:

You don't have to provide evidence for all of them. Just pick one! Pick one, and then present a SHRED of meaningful evidence. Facts, not
musings.

In fact, you can add to the list if you like! Level a charge against Freemasonry, and provide relevant supporting evidence. I'm willing to wager
that it will not stand on its own.

Yes, I'm angry and frustrated. I just want to see if, once and for all, ANYONE can actually give the readers of this forum something a little more
substantial than the utter pap they've been fed thus far.

Meet the challenge.

I hesitate to say this, but I honestly think that there are some very sick people here. The guy who claims to have been demonically possessed due to
the work of Freemasons springs to mind...

To anyone who's still reading: Search your heart. Are you here to seek Truth, or are you merely grinding a very large axe? Is the world a duller
place without cloak-and-dagger cabals by old men wearing aprons? Probably... but the truth is much more important than a blissfully exciting
fantasy.

Originally posted by markusjharper
The time is due for modern Masons to admit that Masonry is not what it used to be. I had to admit this myself and it was painful but you must also do
the same. Freemasonry is now an outer sheath lacking its proper contents. It has become a lodge and nothing better than any other material entity
and I’m sorry to say this, dear Masons but until you can admit Masonic Templar roots, and connections to the occult – I promise you that until the
day you die, you shall never see peace on this common issue. Until, you consider that the vast majority of these concerned people (are not hating
you) but care for all humanity, you prove that Masonry is has ALL but lost its true roots and thus its purpose. We can all stop complaining about
conspiracies now and get honest and put these matters to rest.

Freemasonry's track record stands on its own. The truth of your self-aggrandising tirade does not.

You, who have not set foot inside a Lodge, still insist on telling us what our organisation has become, like some kind of spiritual guru. Get real,
mate.

Before I answer your questions I’d like to ask you first; did you really read all of my post? If you had than you could not possibly think my post
so anti-Masonic that it would prompt you to respond in this kind of fashion. Are you so sure as to have not noticed that the Administrators and
Moderators of ATS had to place sticky’s regarding ATS not being a lodge? If there was not an extraordinary amount of Mason posters here, than why
did the ATS Administrators and Moderators have to post sticky’s on it? Are they somehow mistaken in their views in doing so - which includes
"Skull and Bones" or any harmless frats in general. Please don't forget what ATS is all about? Now, I take it that you’re one of the two types
I mentioned, either unaware due to common lodge practices, or a liar. I can tell you are a fine young adult and that you’re upset, so I assume you
are not very much in control enough to be much of a liar – just a little bit misguided.

So, you think it somehow inappropriate for Masons to defend against unsubstantiated attacks on the Craft?

I see, so you assume that what has been posted here is all but unsubstantiated? That’s a large cleveite to take upon your shoulders – are you
aware of the size of ATS and the sheer ocean of substantiated claims? Now, I do not think it is inappropriate to respond to or defend oneself or even
a lodge but it also matters in which fashion the response comes. The intent matters also. There comes a point Roark when pride takes over and then
its only sarcasm, back and forth like ping-pong. Remember, I alluded before that my purpose in coming here was not to bash Freemasonry but I also did
not come here to argue with people who are simply too blind to accept that conspiracies do exist within ALL groups including Masonry. Only a child or
a blinded person would claim that all this information cannot be substantiated as a whole, (I am not calling you blind) but what I am referring to is
the notion that one group is completely innocent – that is very silly to assume when considering the vast history and sheer size of Masonry and all
of the books, and evidence! If there was nothing of substance than, by the Gods, Freemasonry (a lodge, a fraternity) would be almost as almighty as
heaven herself!

I mean, let's get serious here Markus. Almost every charge levelled against Freemasonry on this site begins with "I know this Freemason who
>". The vast majority of anti-Masonic opinion on this board is based on 2nd-hand information obtained from "a friend".

If all you can gather from my post is that I am a person who cannot back up claims, than maybe you would like me to prove the sun exists also? Some
things are obvious, for instance YOU being the first to respond to my post. As a Christian person born into a family; both the church and of
Freemasonry I think I can attest for something. Btw, you assume too much friend and not everyone who has a credit card need to post the numbers
publicly to simply have it, or make it so.

Your posts, on the other hand, are full of vague references to Masonic plots and intentions that you have NEVER substantiated with
comprehensive facts or history. Hell, you even tried to suggest that Hitler was working with the Freemasons at one point. In light of his persecution
of the Brethren (and 80,000 dead), this is clearly ridiculous.

You repeat the same statement as above. Are you once more claiming that everything levied against Masons on ATS, cannot be substantiated. My eye is
very focused on your REAL intention Roark – but not for the reason that you would like others to imagine. Since you had to bring Hitler up than I
will address it one last time. Yes, Hitler was connected to Ottoman-Freemasonry and when Rudolf Stieiner exposed this publically, Hitler tried to
kill him - although not the main reason - just another. But it's much deeper than that. Somehow, you claim that this is ridiculous in light of the
fact that Hitler killed so many people in such evil. Well, I'm sorry you feel that way but remember that just because Hitler was a member of a
certain sect of Free-Masonry, it doesn't mean that all Masons are to blame, or connected to Hitler. You also forgot to mention the zionist
connection and the fact that Hitler was a member of the "White Lodge" before he fell into evil. Hitler was enlightened and we're now getting into
deep waters so to keep this short - The zionists used Hitler (through Tibetean agents) to kill many innocent Jews, which thus gave a great reason for
Sir Balfour and Lord Rothschild to create the nation state of Israel. These answers are sometimes more complex and not always covered in high school
history textbooks, Roark.

My frustration stems from this: I am a relatively young member of Freemasonry, but I see guys like Trinityman and Masonic Light here every day
- patiently dishing out reams of information about Freemasonry. Straight from the horses mouth - yet pearls before swine. Their posts are often in
response to conspiracy theorists here who are - wait for it - trying to ascertain the truth. Their genuine attempt to be helpful is, more often than
not, labelled as "disinformation" because people like you would rather cling to your medieval fantasy of a worldwide conspiracy instituted by my
organisation, when the reality is that most Lodges are more concerned with getting their membership dues booked and the ceremonial elements of our
activities nailed properly.

First, I thank you for the honesty. So you claim to be a Mason, yet even still I have no way of knowing for sure, if you’re pulling my leg. But I
accept that you claim to be true and I will not call you a liar as you would call others. However, have you ever even considered that certain
so-called Masons here are not Masons at all, even though they claim to be? Your frustration would be better focused on the world at large, dear
friend – do not feel that those righteous Masons here are people you know for sure. Have you met them personally and do you think that Masons are
suffering so grievously in the world today that you would need to shed such tears for them? So where then does your humanity lay, Roark? Do you
support Masons, or do you support the concepts of brotherly love – which includes the entire world and basically a point I alluded to in my first 2
posts?

We simply don't have time for baby sacrifices or the manipulation of governments.

Your statement shows immaturity and lack of real wisdom. Who's "WE"? Are you sure that all Masons are clean as can be and do you speak fo all
masons? Are you speaking for Hitler's old Thule/Vril based Ottoman-Freemasonry also? So, you want to belief that the world is a bed of roses, go
right on ahead but shame on those of you who would tell this to those mothers who had their children kidnapped by the CIA agency called “The
Finders”. Would you like to see it on Fox news before its real for you; to suppose it has any substance of truth? Not too considerate of those
childless mothers whose life was torn apart, I think.

Freemasonry remains one of the most honourable institutions in the world. Nobody has presented ANYTHING remotely based in fact which
demonstrates otherwise.

FREEMASONRY IS HONOURABLE!! Yet that is not based on charity but on its true spiritual foundation which without it has nothing/Zippo/zero to brag
about and nothing to go to war over.

We try and do charitable things purely for their own sake - we are attacked by fundamentalist Christians.

I do think you’re a little younger than me and I do not think your understanding me very clearly. Charity is a cover and means little when thrown
into the mouths of the masses this day and age. We must look closer at these things in order to fully understand the nature of it.

We try to mind our own business and maintain privacy - we are attacked by paranoiacs for trying to run the world.

YOU are a human being that should do that regardless and thus the nature of respecting the privacy of others. We don’t need to keep hearing it from
Masons any more than from the fellow who lives next door to you.

And here you are, trying to take it one step further and suggest that defence of our activities in the face of accusations of criminal
atrocities is inappropriate?!!

And here I am speaking of the church and Zionism and the Jews and Evangelistic Christian also. You must have over read that part in all your
anger.

My challenge to you, or any other like-minded person here, is this:

Give the readers of ATS something... ANYTHING, based in fact, which supports the view that we do ANY of the following as an organization:

You don't have to provide evidence for all of them. Just pick one! Pick one, and then present a SHRED of meaningful evidence. Facts, not musings.

Well, where to start? I think my post was addressed at the past occultist relationship of Freemasonry. This is to be taken as something of the most
honorable nature – for it deserves such! So let’s make this even easier for you, did you answer my question about what is freemasonry in your own
words, without getting all in a fuss and without posting links? No! You just asked me a bunch of question which in any case I can and will address
but you know all too well, will take a very long time and much, much work. How about since you cannot tell me what true real-Masonry is, can you at
least tell me why you believe that Albert Pike, Blavatsky, Manly Hall, Rudolf Steiner, and many other advanced people seem to associate freemasonry
with the occult sciences and yet some of you seem to think that I’m just mucking around here? You’re not yet ready to get into it, when you are
already buried so deep into matter that you cannot fathom the idea that some people here actually do KNOW 100% that there REALLY IS an Esoteric side
to Free-Masonry - even connected to the Templar’s and going back much furher than that. Now are the Templar’s evil? No, certainly not in my own
major study of it but to deny discussion into these things as mere "ghost stories" is going to get some deserved discussion, so its best we be
honest and start discussing things, instead of cussing.

In fact, you can add to the list if you like! Level a charge against Freemasonry, and provide relevant supporting evidence. I'm willing to
wager that it will not stand on its own.

Yes, I'm angry and frustrated. I just want to see if, once and for all, ANYONE can actually give the readers of this forum something a little more
substantial than the utter pap they've been fed thus far.

Round and round we go. Roark, are you not catching this pattern as I have? If you are angry then I suggest some deep meditation and perhaps you
simply need to chill out a little bit. If you’re so angry, then I suggest that you ask for guidance from God, or from your own inner voice and
please do not allow yourself to fall under such influences.

Meet the challenge.

I hesitate to say this, but I honestly think that there are some very sick people here. The guy who claims to have been demonically possessed due to
the work of Freemasons springs to mind...

Now Roark, there is no need to be rude and I’m not suggesting that I believe in everyhting that was claimed, either. However, I know a Christian
church that was involved in Satanic ceremonies in the lower chamber and I never took any offense to the one person delivering the message. If you
wish to call this other poster a sick person you best first be getting to know him a little better, or give him a chance to post more evidence.

To anyone who's still reading: Search your heart. Are you here to seek Truth, or are you merely grinding a very large axe? Is the world a
duller place without cloak-and-dagger cabals by old men wearing aprons? Probably... but the truth is much more important than a blissfully exciting
fantasy.

You have in the past reacted in great anger to my comments Roark. Fear begets anger and that does not look good – it appears very desperate and I
have already hinted that I am not out to get Freemasonry here, so I wonder why you feel so worried about my true and honest approach as per my two
first posts?

Freemasonry's track record stands on its own. The truth of your self-aggrandising tirade does not. You, who have not set foot inside a Lodge, still
insist on telling us what our organization has become, like some kind of spiritual guru. Get real, mate.

You assume too much Roark. I’ll tell you that I was there and close to it before you were fully grown.

What "esoteric" group are you apart of? Esoteric means hidden from view, or known only to a secret few.

-- Boat

Hi Boat,

I'm connected to the Gnostic movement - my family is Christian and Masonic blood. I prefer not to reveal anything more than necessary at this
present time however, out of respect for the privacy of those dear to me. Degrees are so overated. A Mason need but only 3 of them - if he can reach
it in his lifetime.

I think that real masons like us (if you want to confirm you can u2u me) should really stop wasting our time on ignorant people who more readily
accept rumor and fantasy and stories of being demonically posessed by freemasons, than the testimonies of real life Freemasons.

Let them have their rant and let them make fools of themselves to the rational even minded people who read this site (yes there are plenty of them!).
Ignore them and they will get bored and move on.

It frustrates me to see some of the things that people will readily accept without closely scrutinising the facts first - but you just cant help some
people.

Before I even bother wasting more charity work time, would you care to please read this passage below as taken from former President Bill Clinton’s
mentor and teacher, Professor Carol Quigley's book "Tragedy and Hope"? I think it speaks of the VERY round table group leading the world today
under many new names; and would you happen to know how many of these evil men, were Free-Masons?

In the secret society, Rhodes was to be leader. Stead, Brett (Lord Esher), and Milner were to form an executive committee [called “The Society
of the Elect”]. Arthur (Lord) Balfour, (Sir) Harry Johnston, Lord Rothschild, Albert (Lord) Grey, and others were listed as potential members of a
“Circle of Initiates”; while there was to be an outer circle known as the “Association of Helpers” (later organized by Milner as the Round
Table organization). After the death of Cecil Rhodes, the organization fell under the control of Lord Alfred Milner, who was Governor General and
High Commissioner of South Africa, also a very powerful person in British banking and politics.

Now, what if I told you that ALL these men were pretty much high-level Free-Masons, would that then count toward a massive Conspiracy involving a few
Free-Masons? I can accept that one of them may call himself a Christian-Mason but ("hardly" following anything based on Christ's teachings mind
you) but before you answer me, you had best consider very closely the names of these men.

Do a search on Mason + the names of these men above www.google.ca... and it's more than
obvious from pro-Mason sources that they were Masons. I also own several books (not writen by any Jesuit) that will substantiate the claim also.

Did you know that the "Balfour Declaration" was a Zionist plot to create Israel - and not because I said so, but because a Freemason named Arthur
James Balfour said so in his letter to Lord Rothschild, below.

The declaration, a typed letter signed in ink by Balfour, reads as follows:

Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist
aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best
endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and
religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely, Arthur James Balfour

Are you seeing how easy it is for me to prove not only a Conspiracy involving what some would call the TRUE Illuminati but don’t you think it’s
significant that these men were also high level Freemasons? In light of these charges, how many will now try really hard, taking time to answer my
very basic question of "what is Freemasonry"? Watch, as the dissassociation tactics shall begin and the attempt by some to try and define
"Masonry".

I'm taking your little challange... Now, I'm not going to say anything more - until I hear what you have to say about it first? Don't whine,
either respond as gentlemen, or piss off, see?

Originally posted by markusjharper
I have learned much in posting here - even made some alterations in my own personal views thanks to many of the fine posters.

I’ve also already noticed (in the short time you were here) how quickly your way of thinking as become more precise and your arguments have become
stronger, more thought out.

I think “real” masonry is any lodge that the UGLE accepts. Anything else is not “real” masonry. Why UGLE as the authority? Probably because
it’s the oldest.

Then there are the appendant bodies, which are also accepted by Masons. That would be The “Scottish Rite” the “York Rite” and the
“Shrinners” (Ancient Arabic Order of the Nobles of the Mystic Shrine). (Although by which authority those are accepted, I’m not sure.) There
are more appendant bodies, but these are the biggies.

Anytime you step out of these organizations you are not referring too “real” masonry. And then you have to be careful because some Lodge or at
one time affiliated lodges, but then they loose their official patents. Such as the P2 lodge in Italy.

Like I previously mention, I can download all the secrets of masonry online and set up a gang of bank robbers around the rituals. I can even meet in
a Lodge and call my fellow gang members, brothers. Although many unsuspecting member of the public will think were masons, we wouldn’t be what
other masons call “real Mason.”

Love the Rothschild stuff, keep it coming. (I was warned on here not to post about the Rothschilds and Rockefellers, don’t worry not by staff just a
member, I’m still not sure why.)

I also believe in various groups fighting amongst themselves for control the world; I just don’t see how those groups could use Masonry (no central
authority) and the people in it, TODAY. And I don’t see why they would need them. - like ML previously answered in one of my posts, UGLE couldn't
even get its memebrs to eat 2 apples a day, much less act as a cover for the NWO's illicit activities. (dont' they already have the UN, World Bank
etc. for that?)

Freemasonry as I see it, Is an organisation of "free" men who share a common belief that that charity and good will towards your fellow man (not
just masons) will help to better society as a whole.

While there are "secrets" these are mainly just secret methods of identifying another mason.

I acknowledge that a number of highly influential people throughout history have been associated with Freemasonry and I dont think that is because
they have an overriding deisre to "take over the world".

I believe that the kind of person that would embrace Freemasonry is the same kind of people who would embrace politics and other kinds of public
service, which are generally very thankless jobs and require a certain amount of dedication to the community you represent, along with a general
desire to do the right thing for your fellow man.

Not all politicians or even freemasons will fit this mold. As with any large group there are bound to be some who let the group down. There also bound
to be a number of people who see Freemasonry as a stepping stone for their political career.

This is unfortunate, though it is bound to happen.

As for the Illuminati and other secret societies which may have developed from Freemasonry and therefore have a large number of Masonic members - the
thing that needs to be understood by non-Masons is that Freemasonry attracts a large number of idealistic and socially passionate people.

These people often have ideas for what they feel would make the world a better place - either for themselves (as i said, Freemasonry also has its bad
eggs) or for society in general. As freemasonry does not allow any matters of politics and religion to be discussed (both vital subjects if one wants
to change the world), offshoot Socities of men including Freemasons would have had to be created to fulfill the desires of these men.

These groups would have then leeched other idealistic Feemasons to their cause, for obvious reasons.

These groups, while containing masonic members- should not thought of as Masonic groups Why? Among other reasons, they break one of the cardinal rules
in freemasonry, that no religion or politics is to be involved.

True Freemasons are the group I first mentioned: an organisation of "free" men who share a common belief that that charity and good will towards
your fellow man (not just masons) will help to better society as a whole.

Also, by "high-level" masons, I assume you mean high degree masons. Let me tell you that higher degree masons arent that special. I know quite a few
that are just regular people with VERY regular lives. This whole "high level mason" thing is a bit of a myth.

I hope that gives you an idea of how I feel about Masonry and the rest of it - I do apologise for being a little rude in the last post, I am just sick
to death of coming on here and seeing unintelligent and badly misinformed posts from people such as that Pirate nutter who are slandering (or is that
libel since its print?) the name of an organisation that really does try to do the right thing by people and society as a whole.

Mike

ps. The lodge I belong to is The United Press Lodge no. 134 (Under the Grand Lodge of Western Australan)

Originally posted by Ezekiel
As freemasonry does not allow any matters of politics and religion

But how can freemasonry be involved in charity and not take these matter into consideration? I read that (not sure if it’s true) that the Shrinners
are a charity with assets of about 2 Billion US dollars. I believe that people in charge of investing (in this case divesting) assets so large
would require these matters to be taken into consideration.

Also, by "high-level" masons, I assume you mean high degree masons.

I don’t think so. He is just talking about a branch of masonry you don’t know of. Have you heard the term “Illuminated” in your Lodge?
Moving on…

… from people such as that Pirate nutter who are slandering (or is that libel since its print?)

Your right, in order for EP to be slandering “your” organization he would have
to make a podcast. What he is doing on this forum is Libel against “your”
organization. However, I believe it is just a case of mislabeling. BTW calling him “Pirate nutter” on a public forum could constitute as
defamation.*

But how can freemasonry be involved in charity and not take these matter into consideration? I read that (not sure if it’s true) that the Shrinners
are a charity with assets of about 2 Billion US dollars. I believe that people in charge of investing (in this case divesting) assets so large
would require these matters to be taken into consideration.

Children of all races, ethnicities, and religions are welcome at any of the hospitals, and though the current annual budget of Shriners Hospitals is
in excess of $600 million dollars, there has never been any charge to patients.

Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
But how can freemasonry be involved in charity and not take these matter into consideration? I read that (not sure if it’s true) that the Shrinners
are a charity with assets of about 2 Billion US dollars. I believe that people in charge of investing (in this case divesting) assets so large
would require these matters to be taken into consideration.

I'm sure that people with political agendas have approached freemasons and shriners over the years and Im sure that the Freemasons have informed them
that they will not be part of their political postulating. Freemasons can deal with politicians / religious groups - they just dont get involved with
the processes of those groups WHILE IN LODGE. Outside of lodge they are allowed to do whatever they like as individuals, however collectively as
Masons we are not allowed to comment or get involved.

I don’t think so. He is just talking about a branch of masonry you don’t know of. Have you heard the term “Illuminated” in your Lodge?
Moving on…

A branch of masonry I havent heard of? So as a non-mason (Which i assume you are, please correct me if I'm wrong) you know more about masonry than
me?

I've heard the term Illuminated before. Often associated with those societies which are offshoots of the masons, therefore not True Freemasons.

Your right, in order for EP to be slandering “your” organization he would have
to make a podcast. What he is doing on this forum is Libel against “your”
organization. However, I believe it is just a case of mislabeling. BTW calling him “Pirate nutter” on a public forum could constitute as
defamation.*

*This in no way constitute any legal advice.

Hehe dont worry - I wont refernce that if I find myself in court.

Personally I could care less if EP tried to get me for defamation. The way he rants, I wouldnt even need a defense lawyer.

Originally posted by markusjharper
Do we all not see something wrong with a trend of thought like this?

The problem, however, is that much of what one hears in the world of anti-masonry is the same information propagated by taxil and
others. We see the original information presented by them, gobbled up by neophytes credulously, and then repeated the world over, such that the
original source is obscured. Beyond that, there is also a large percentage of 'anti-masonry' that is nothing more than rank rumour and gossip, or
the worst kind of baseless speculation and unfounded allegation.

THere's nothing wrong with exposing problems within a clearly secretive organization that could clearly be open to rife abuse. The problem is that
thats so rare, rather we see sensationalist claims. Present evidence, not rumour.

I’m going to be a little bit hard here but I have to tell you that I see something all too common in the Mason affiliated posters here.

You know, I can understand why a person would be a mason, see some really horrible things said about his group, and therefore by implication about him
personally, and want to respond to it. You don't see that too much in other conspiracy boards, because those other boards shut down
discussion unless its from their particular viewpoint. Here, we let everyone talk. So of course we have lots of masons who participate in the
discussions, and of course that means that there will be a lot of responses to anti-masonic information, and that in itself give the perception of an
organization to the masonic respones and a policy of 'ganging up'.
Ironically, the only way to do anything about that would be to actually organize the masons and get them to insitute a policy here as a group, the
very thing that so many complain about!
Rather, we permit, hell we all welcome peopel to say what they want on this board as individuals.

Would it be a response which entails insulting the poster and demanding fully cited pages of proof, complete with all footnotes and fully
supported by Christian websites?

Firstly, if someone is insulting another member personally, attacking them, this is not permited the by TOS and should be brought to our notice.
Secondly, its one thing to complain about an unfairly high requirement of evidence, but thats not what I have seen on this board, rather I have seen a
request for some kind of documentation, especially of the very specific claims!
Also, if you feel that the requests are too high a standard, then simply don't bother with them. I mean, its your board, if you think that someone is
being a prig for asking for too detailed information, then don't give it and move on, no?

Would any of you believe that to be posting in defense of only MASONRY, or ONLY the CHURCH would be VERY suspicious?

No. I'd say that they only have an interest in masonry then. There are members here who only post in the aircraft forum. There are members who are
only interested in creationism threads. There are members, like, well, you, that seem to only be intersted in masonry. Heck, most of the masons here
at least participate in discussions about lots of other secret societies whereas I rarely see you posting about anythin other than this one particular
fraternity.
But, agian, what of it? What is the purpose in being suspicious? Suspicious for what? That the masons here are part of an organized effort? Hell,
for all any of us know, they are. What of it? We can't demonstrate it merely because their interests are so narrow and parochial. Heck, the
fact that one poster in this forum so recently started a 'generalized complain about the mean actions of masons on this forum' is far
stronger evidence of a literal conspiracy between members of the board than anything else.

Would those Masons have time for much charity at all? Does this charity work mean staying here all day long on ATS and conducting various PR
exercises against the so-called ignorant masses?

Please explain how you can tell the difference between people being paid to do public relations work for the fraternity, and members of the fraternity
wanting to clear up some common mispercptions and oft-repeated gossip about themselves???
You can't, certainly not by only looking at the posts that are in the board, you'd have to actually investigate the people and their
organization, maybe infiltrate it since its such a secretive one.

So, if you think that the masons have a conspiracy to send out operatives to online discussion boards to do PR work for the fraternity, PLEASE,
infiltrate the frat and expose the operation. Or at least gather some evidence.

This goes back to one of your intitial complaints, is it too high a requirement for you to actually present some sort of evidence to support
this claim, other than to say 'masons sure are vocal about masonry not being evil'???? Anything besides baseless accusations??

I mean, in any of the other forums on this board, that kind of reasonsing gets ripped apart, because its recognized as being weak reasonsing.
But here, some people expect special treatment and to not have to have anyone point out their weak reasoning, or even counter their arguments.

Originally posted by Ezekiel
A branch of masonry I havent heard of? So as a non-mason (Which i assume you are, please correct me if I'm wrong) you know more about masonry than
me?

No, I’m simply saying that there are certainly renegade branches of freemasonry you haven’t heard of. (What you called "not True Freemasons" -
for example I once read a post on here, someone had posted a link to a Lodge claiming to be masons, yet all they had was a geocities page, no physical
address. Do you know about them?

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