Tuesday, October 28, 2014

Continuing a long trend of feminists (or those with a feminist agenda, at any rate) coming onto the media and making no sense (of course, later feminists will claim that these feminists are not representative, that the media likes to showcase hysterical people [while somehow most of the other Moral Maze guests make more sense], on convicted rapist Ched Evans playing football:

Claire Fox: But I'm just wondering, as a sports commentator, that's why I was asking you about everybody else's [attitudes]. Are you going around checking on the attitudes of everyone you comment on?...

Charlie Webster: Not at all. Not at all. However, I am a campaigner against sexual abuse... I am also a Sheffield United Fan...

Michael Portillo: I wonder if your issue with this would be addressed by rape sentences being longer... This man has done the sentence that it was decided he should serve. He's come out and there's now a question of punishing him a second time. Are you really campaigning for longer rape sentences?

Charlie Webster: I am a patron of Sheffield United Community Foundation. I will not stay its patron because I don't believe a convicted rapist should be playing football. And should be idolised. That's what I am campaigning for right now.

I'm with the Ministry of Justice, on the victims panel, to try and make sure that victims are looked after better in the justice system and prosecutions go through.

Now my worry about this is that only 15% of people that are raped come forward. What message are we sending out to people that have been raped this week?... Would they come forward? No. Because what happens is you get berated and you say it's not fair on the perpetrator Ched Evans, but it's neither fair on the victim who is not on trial and hasn't done anything wrong. And Ched Evans, if he wants to, could have come forward today and apologised for the victim.

Michael Portillo: But he thinks, he says he's innocent, you see.

Charlie Webster: He's still, morally, he was wrong...

Michael Portillo: Well, he's-

Charlie Webster: His fans,have run a hate campaign against him. So he could call for his fans to stop the hate campaign against him.

Michael Portillo: Let me try and ask you some other questions.

So it is for you particularly about rape. So if it were another issue, you wouldn't be talking about this. And if it were another profession other than football you wouldn't be talking about this.

Charlie Webster: I am talking as a football fan, as a Sheffield United fan who is a campaigner against sexual violence. As somebody who has been sexually abused-

Michael Portillo: I know, but this is a program about morality, so we have to try and test these propositions. We have to try and broaden them. If the crime were not rape, and he were not a footballer, would you feel the same about it?

Charlie Webster: I wouldn't be sat here. Because as I said I'm here as a football fan.

Michael Portillo: Yeah, I know.

But don't you feel some obligation to make what you're saying logical, to make it be something that stands up on its own? In other words, would it be the case that if he were a murderer who'd done his time, and he was not a footballer but a violinist in an orchestra, that you would feel the same about it?

Charlie Webster: He's not, though, so I'm not gonna answer that question. I think that one: the FA should have a code of conduct if we're talking about-

Michael Portillo: Okay, let me try another line.

Charlie Webster: If he were a violinist, I don't know,, because I have no experience of violining.

Michael Portillo: Okay, let me try another line.

Charlie Webster: However, a lawyer wouldn't be allowed back in his job. A teacher wouldn't be allowed back in his job. Because they would have a role of responsibility.

Michael Portillo: That's right. Those things-

Because they're absolutely specified. That's why those people aren't allowed in their jobs. There are no specifications to say that a person may not go back and play football.

Let me just test you on this role model point.

If you're worried about the role model for young people, isn't it important that here is a young man who's been to prison, who's done 2 1/2 years in prison. Doesn't that send a message to young people?

Here's a person whose career hangs by the thread. Doesn't that send a message to young people?

And here's a person going to have his case reviewed because in our society we believe in justice and in this case it's been thought that it's proper for this case to be reviewed.

Aren't those three amazing messages to send to young people?

Charlie Webster: That surprises me, that is the message that you see and question me on. It really really does, and I find that very uncomfortable.

Michael Portillo: Answer the question.

This reminds me of Christian apologetics - the logic of exceptionalism (no external consistency) and not answering the question. But I guess it beats labelling everyone else as a misogynist.

"She was immediately branded a "hypocrite" by Evans' sister Kylie. She retweeted a message the presenter posted last month saying she wanted to get a photograph of former heavyweight boxing champion and convicted rapist Mike Tyson."

"Former Downing Street spin doctor Alastair Campbell told BBC3's Free Speech that he supported the idea of criminals being reintegrated back into society.

He said: "I think we've got to be very careful to say that somebody who has committed a crime, and has then served their sentence, and then should never, ever, ever be accepted back as a, if you like, a good member of society again."

TV presenter Judy Finnigan sparked controversy last week during a panel discussion on ITV's Loose Women by claiming that Evans' crime was "non violent" and did not cause "bodily harm".

Her comments caused a wave of criticism, abuse on social media and also sparked threats against her daughter, fitness instructor Chloe Madeley, wishing rape on her."

Evidently, rape is so serious that we should wish rape threats on people who 'defend' it (or their children).

"• When looking at pictures of immoral acts, women's judgments of severity correlate with higher levels of activation in emotion centers of the brain, suggesting concern for victims, whereas men show higher activation in areas that might involve the deployment of principles (Carla Harenski and collaborators).
• Women are more likely to factor personal cost into decisions about whether to punish an unfair stranger, which suggests that women are more context-sensitive, and men adhere to principles (Catherine Eckel and Philip Grossman).
• Women are more likely than men to think it is okay to imprison a person on trumped up changes in order to stop violent rioting in the streets (Fiery Cushman and Liane Young). But women are also less likely to endorse diverting a runaway trolley down an alternate track where it will kill one person instead of five (John Mikhail)."

Also from this episode:

David Walsh:

"If we've allowed our kids to see our celebrity sports, professional sportspeople as role models, we as adults have failed"

"Not all rapes are exactly the same. Some are conducted with shocking violence, some are not quite like that. And I think that we shouldn't be afraid to make that distinction"

Continuing a long trend of feminists (or those with a feminist agenda, at any rate) coming onto the media and making no sense (of course, later feminists will claim that these feminists are not representative, that the media likes to showcase hysterical people [while somehow most of the other Moral Maze guests make more sense], on convicted rapist Ched Evans playing football:

Claire Fox: But I'm just wondering, as a sports commentator, that's why I was asking you about everybody else's [attitudes]. Are you going around checking on the attitudes of everyone you comment on?...

Charlie Webster: Not at all. Not at all. However, I am a campaigner against sexual abuse... I am also a Sheffield United Fan...

Michael Portillo: I wonder if your issue with this would be addressed by rape sentences being longer... This man has done the sentence that it was decided he should serve. He's come out and there's now a question of punishing him a second time. Are you really campaigning for longer rape sentences?

Charlie Webster: I am a patron of Sheffield United Community Foundation. I will not stay its patron because I don't believe a convicted rapist should be playing football. And should be idolised. That's what I am campaigning for right now.

I'm with the Ministry of Justice, on the victims panel, to try and make sure that victims are looked after better in the justice system and prosecutions go through.

Now my worry about this is that only 15% of people that are raped come forward. What message are we sending out to people that have been raped this week?... Would they come forward? No. Because what happens is you get berated and you say it's not fair on the perpetrator Ched Evans, but it's neither fair on the victim who is not on trial and hasn't done anything wrong. And Ched Evans, if he wants to, could have come forward today and apologised for the victim.

Michael Portillo: But he thinks, he says he's innocent, you see.

Charlie Webster: He's still, morally, he was wrong...

Michael Portillo: Well, he's-

Charlie Webster: His fans,have run a hate campaign against him. So he could call for his fans to stop the hate campaign against him.

Michael Portillo: Let me try and ask you some other questions.

So it is for you particularly about rape. So if it were another issue, you wouldn't be talking about this. And if it were another profession other than football you wouldn't be talking about this.

Charlie Webster: I am talking as a football fan, as a Sheffield United fan who is a campaigner against sexual violence. As somebody who has been sexually abused-

Michael Portillo: I know, but this is a program about morality, so we have to try and test these propositions. We have to try and broaden them. If the crime were not rape, and he were not a footballer, would you feel the same about it?

Charlie Webster: I wouldn't be sat here. Because as I said I'm here as a football fan.

Michael Portillo: Yeah, I know.

But don't you feel some obligation to make what you're saying logical, to make it be something that stands up on its own? In other words, would it be the case that if he were a murderer who'd done his time, and he was not a footballer but a violinist in an orchestra, that you would feel the same about it?

Charlie Webster: He's not, though, so I'm not gonna answer that question. I think that one: the FA should have a code of conduct if we're talking about-

Michael Portillo: Okay, let me try another line.

Charlie Webster: If he were a violinist, I don't know,, because I have no experience of violining.

Michael Portillo: Okay, let me try another line.

Charlie Webster: However, a lawyer wouldn't be allowed back in his job. A teacher wouldn't be allowed back in his job. Because they would have a role of responsibility.

Michael Portillo: That's right. Those things-

Because they're absolutely specified. That's why those people aren't allowed in their jobs. There are no specifications to say that a person may not go back and play football.

Let me just test you on this role model point.

If you're worried about the role model for young people, isn't it important that here is a young man who's been to prison, who's done 2 1/2 years in prison. Doesn't that send a message to young people?

Here's a person whose career hangs by the thread. Doesn't that send a message to young people?

And here's a person going to have his case reviewed because in our society we believe in justice and in this case it's been thought that it's proper for this case to be reviewed.

Aren't those three amazing messages to send to young people?

Charlie Webster: That surprises me, that is the message that you see and question me on. It really really does, and I find that very uncomfortable.

Michael Portillo: Answer the question.

This reminds me of Christian apologetics - the logic of exceptionalism (no external consistency) and not answering the question. But I guess it beats labelling everyone else as a misogynist.

"She was immediately branded a "hypocrite" by Evans' sister Kylie. She retweeted a message the presenter posted last month saying she wanted to get a photograph of former heavyweight boxing champion and convicted rapist Mike Tyson."

"Former Downing Street spin doctor Alastair Campbell told BBC3's Free Speech that he supported the idea of criminals being reintegrated back into society.

He said: "I think we've got to be very careful to say that somebody who has committed a crime, and has then served their sentence, and then should never, ever, ever be accepted back as a, if you like, a good member of society again."

TV presenter Judy Finnigan sparked controversy last week during a panel discussion on ITV's Loose Women by claiming that Evans' crime was "non violent" and did not cause "bodily harm".

Her comments caused a wave of criticism, abuse on social media and also sparked threats against her daughter, fitness instructor Chloe Madeley, wishing rape on her."

Evidently, rape is so serious that we should wish rape threats on people who 'defend' it (or their children).

"• When looking at pictures of immoral acts, women's judgments of severity correlate with higher levels of activation in emotion centers of the brain, suggesting concern for victims, whereas men show higher activation in areas that might involve the deployment of principles (Carla Harenski and collaborators).
• Women are more likely to factor personal cost into decisions about whether to punish an unfair stranger, which suggests that women are more context-sensitive, and men adhere to principles (Catherine Eckel and Philip Grossman).
• Women are more likely than men to think it is okay to imprison a person on trumped up changes in order to stop violent rioting in the streets (Fiery Cushman and Liane Young). But women are also less likely to endorse diverting a runaway trolley down an alternate track where it will kill one person instead of five (John Mikhail)."

Also from this episode:

David Walsh:

"If we've allowed our kids to see our celebrity sports, professional sportspeople as role models, we as adults have failed"

"Not all rapes are exactly the same. Some are conducted with shocking violence, some are not quite like that. And I think that we shouldn't be afraid to make that distinction"