it should be possible to provide a Text alternative that is not associated with the technology, IE, chart and graph, had alt text...but alt is not enough...longdesc should be used or put on the pages or a link to the page

21:48:16 [achuter]

q+

21:48:44 [wendy]

ack jas

21:49:13 [David]

JW : disagree with proposal, about aainst explict content

21:50:30 [David]

person reading who has dsability will not know that the external text is an alternative.. so there will be an explicit assoc copy and an external, very confusing,

wendyl. propose to both camps: have alt that says has a description. current wording..."maybe say ..."at least one...." play with wording to satisfy both groups

21:54:46 [wendy]

ack gregg

21:55:42 [David]

GV: don't have bits and peices of the description in different places...

21:56:15 [Kesh]

Kerstin: I have to go to another meeting, sorry -- just wanted to put my hand up and agree with Andi and Mike. I agree that we should not create rules for testing facilitation as Gregg is saying, as well.

21:56:17 [wendy]

q+ to say, "in case of svg, are the alternatives always explicit? i.e., the alternative is an alternative view of the data, isn't it? i.e., extracting text, reading order... from the svg data??"

21:56:20 [Kesh]

ack kerstin

21:56:27 [David]

GV let's not create rules just for testing...and besides you can't test if a alt text is necessary

21:56:48 [Kesh]

Bye!

21:56:50 [Kesh]

Kesh has left #wai-wcag

21:56:55 [Zakim]

-Kerstin

21:58:18 [David]

GV I had a chart, and chart was described below so no need to have a LONGDESC to it cause it will be read twice, we should just make sure that it is easy to find the text alternative

21:58:20 [wendy]

ack andi

21:59:01 [David]

Andi, OK with that, but if there has to be a programatic association, then that's a problem

21:59:18 [wendy]

ack john

21:59:21 [wendy]

ack wendy

21:59:21 [Zakim]

wendy, you wanted to say, "in case of svg, are the alternatives always explicit? i.e., the alternative is an alternative view of the data, isn't it? i.e., extracting text, reading

21:59:25 [Zakim]

... order... from the svg data??"

21:59:26 [David]

GV: so every image should have a caption and it could be an alt text?

21:59:48 [David]

wendy what about SVG,

22:00:15 [wendy]

ack jas

22:00:20 [David]

Wendy.. no defn of explicitly associated

22:01:26 [gregg]

q+

22:01:37 [David]

Jason disagress cause it should be a machine readable so machine can decide what to do it. disagrees that new technologies will not support it. because our specs can be followed by mfg

22:01:54 [David]

he disagrees with wendy's position

22:02:02 [wendy]

s/wendy's/andi's

22:02:05 [David]

oops andi's postion

22:04:08 [David]

prefers, saying that we put explicit assoc in metadata, HTML does satisfy explicit association ALT text satisfys even if more content alternative is not machine associative

22:04:23 [wendy]

ack gregg

22:04:39 [David]

GV. can'[t just say there is a chart here

22:05:37 [David]

If you have a technology that doesn't associate then does not satify 1.1

22:06:13 [wendy]

ack andi

22:06:18 [David]

If it wasn't necessary to put in the ALT text.

22:07:29 [David]

Wendy....if someone invents new format that brings in benefits, but not acessible, but we provide acessible html version it is the text alternative...to have expicit association necessary then this would not be conforming

22:07:39 [David]

andi

22:07:41 [wendy]

isn't that 4.2? "Any programmatic user interface components of the content conform to at least the default set of conformance requirements of the UAAG 1.0 at Level A plus the sets of requirements (a) through (i) (below) that apply. If the custom user interfaces cannot be made accessible, an alternative solution is provided that meets WCAG 2.0 (including this provision) to the level claimed."

22:07:47 [David]

sub andi for wendy...

22:08:27 [wendy]

ack jason

22:09:54 [David]

Jason...not what's happening in 1.1...just make conformance claim on the html version, rather than saying its a 1.1 issue...an alternative version that meets guideline stands on it s own.

22:11:07 [David]

Wendy: so if I have an image on a page, diecide to leave alt null and put description below..is that conforming

22:11:15 [wendy]

s/Wendy/andi

22:11:47 [David]

GV says no put "Chart...descibed below" in the alt text...because its not a decorative issue

22:12:03 [David]

oopss sorry I have that in my brain your both brilliant

22:12:46 [wendy]

:)

22:13:52 [wendy]

q+ to say "who take action to define 'explicitly associated?'"

22:14:32 [David]

john what would happen if "use title in paragraph" using title element as an alt but

22:15:08 [David]

GV we have closure,,, we must have ALT text exicitly associated but if there is more. text it should be easy to find..