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Okay, this is a repost from over on the Steam forums (not me), but I thought it summed up really well many of the preconceptions people have about TSW:

[Orignally posted by Mike Litoris]:

I get really irritated when I read the same things about this game over and over again. I feel that while some people have responded in an informative and civil matter, not all explanations have been as eloquent as they could be. So, I would like to address some of these things individually so that each person viewing each point doesn't get lost in a sea of text or just walk away because tl;dr. If something interests you, just move to the subject line of text you feel you need to see. :)

Quests are boring just like every other MMO fetch quest :

Wrong. There is a very large variety of missions that involve both investigation and/or outright Google'ing as well as quite a few stealth missions that require finesse and guile. The main faction story missions that follow your character development throughout the game are also a nice grab bag of all the mission types. And it's not a thing about 2 or 3 missions like this to break it up amongst a sea of fetch stuff, but a seriously heavy balance that's almost even. This game does have "fetch/kill count" missions but...even some of those cookie cutter MMO style missions referred to here are done with style or some element of ambience that makes them feel just a bit more intuitive. Maybe you'll have to really search for your kill, or maybe it's not as easy as knocking one over and you have to figure out 'how' to kill it, etc. So, even the boring isn't so boring. Anyone saying that this game has boring regular ol' MMO missions just simply has not played the game past the first two missions and they are lying.

There is no raiding:

Wrong...kinda. There is 'a' raid. But, in fact there are plenty of other raid quality material to be had if people just do them. As for an official raid, yea there's just the one...but there are Lairs which are pretty much open world raids where you can farm out nice chunks of XP, get loot, and form bosses for other loot and upgrades. But, keep in mind that this game hasn't been out that long, and in comparison to other MMOs it's actually not any different in it's development progression. When World of Warcraft first came out their first raid instance was Blackrock Spire. Think about that for a minute and let it sink in if you're familiar with it. Also, this doesn't count the seasonal raid material that has popped up so far.

[Ortwig's Note: Nightmare mode dungeons are TSW's raid equivalent. The New York City Raid is also there, along with Lairs.]

PvP doesn't exist and is broken:

Wrong. Just because people don't play your faction (cough - Dragon) doesn't mean it's dead, it just means you're not a part of the biggest of two factions enjoying it. Transfer to another server or change sides if it's what you're dying for. Is it something for a strictly PvP type person? Not at this stage because you can't really do it 24/7 (think Wintergrasp). But again I need to put this in perspective of other MMOs (or just WoW lol)...of which didn't have anything but world pvp until well over a year after it was out. And even then the battlegrounds were broken for a solid year too at the least. PvP is not something that many MMOs have gotten right and had perfect at launch...or a year following for that matter.

What's the point of a Cabal if there's nothing to do?:

Sometimes I want to choke people. When I hear this rant it becomes one of those times. First off, many people do grasp the core concept of a Cabal/Guild. That concept is for social purposes first and foremost. And those purposes are particularly to keep you and your close friends together in one place without actually having to be in one place. You get your own chat channel, your own bank, and your own ranks so the jerks in charge can randomly kick their friends and have a laugh or bark at new guys and experience a sense of power that they otherwise never see irl. The advent of Guild advancement in other MMO titles is a fairly new concept and still fairly infantile. And even those with advancement concepts in working order right now...still tend to be broken and offer nothing more than just a ruse of farming XP. In reality, taking that part away...you still have the same thing in Secret World. And right now, Cabals have plenty to do if people need to kill time. Such as the typical organized dungeon run, raid night, lair farm, or theatre production for the RP'ers.

The combat sucks:

Definitely, positively, absolutely...wrong. I imagine this comes from people that have 2 skills unlocked and have repeatedly had their butt handed to them by the zombies on the road to the Kingsmouth Sheriff's Dept. In which case; you're doing it wrong. If you keep getting violated past the point of having say ohhhh...10 skills unlocked...you're still doing it wrong. This game does not hold your hand, but if you need advice on why you can't survive more than 3 hits or why you can't kill anything, the community will help you. You cannot just throw points all willy nilly into your tree and actually see good results from it. You have to think it out and plan ahead to some degree. And if you can't think it out, they were nice enough to add skill point Starter Decks so that people would know how to spend points into something that works. Take advantage of your resources available to you and learn the game before jumping in expecting to "win all teh lootz". Otherwise you will walk away with a big sadface crying and whining like all those that use this line. And before anyone argues with 1,1,1,1,1,2,1 - name one MMO that does not play like this to some degree, then the argument would be valid. All puns aside; the combat in this game is more deep than I could have ever imagined. When you can theorycraft a skill set that allows you to kill raid mobs en masse without taking damage or dying - that can otherwise destroy you in 1 hit...I'd say the complexity of the combat is unsurpassed. I love building a seemingly new character every other day just because of curiosity or there's something new I want to try.

So, all in all I think many of these comments are coming from people that have spent very little time with the game and they do not help bring customers in. Which is a sad thing considering this is probably one of the most rich and involved MMO experiences I have ever had. I have played: EVE, Allods, WoW, EQ, EQ2, STO, AoC, Rift, GW 1 and 2, Requiem, Hellgate, Invictus, SWTOR, and many many many more. This game is my absolute favorite because it does everything right. There are bugs, but every MMO has it's bugs. Nothing has broken the game. There are things that aren't fully realized, but every MMO has it's teething process. I believe in this game. And I know it will grow more and more. I've brought 4 new people to this game so far and that list will grow. Oh, and the fact that Nightmare mode dungeons make WoW Heroic raids look like a cute little baby toy warms my heart. And it warms my heart even more that all the little trolls with bad attitudes will never make it past the Gatekeeper to know what it's like.

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Originally posted by AeonbladesI couldn't even make it past the first paragraph without feeling nauseous. What a condescending turd, good to know the Steam forum has them too! TSW is a good game, but this doesn't help lol.

This ^

What a load of PR bull. But it is the internet, people are allowed to blatantly lie about things.

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Originally posted by AeonbladesI couldn't even make it past the first paragraph without feeling nauseous. What a condescending turd, good to know the Steam forum has them too! TSW is a good game, but this doesn't help lol.

A bit heated maybe, but I didn't think condescending -- well, maybe a little. He's in rant mode. :) Still, I think many of the counterpoints to the criticisms leveled at TSW are spot on.

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You did see all the reviews of this game, you did see the very poor sales numbers and you do realize the game went B2P because the majority of people who purchased it felt it did not deserve a sub fee right? Yet according to you, the combat is great, the PVP excellent and there is plenty to do with RAIDing and all. Amazing...

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Originally posted by TalonsinYou did see all the reviews of this game, you did see the very poor sales numbers and you do realize the game went B2P because the majority of people who purchased it felt it did not deserve a sub fee right? Yet according to you, the combat is great, the PVP excellent and there is plenty to do with RAIDing and all. Amazing...

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Originally posted by TalonsinYou did see all the reviews of this game, you did see the very poor sales numbers and you do realize the game went B2P because the majority of people who purchased it felt it did not deserve a sub fee right? Yet according to you, the combat is great, the PVP excellent and there is plenty to do with RAIDing and all. Amazing...

Let me first state that I am not a fanboi of anything or anyone (other than my wife.) The fact of going to B2P is, in fact, indicative of the changing MMO market (e.g. GW2). The combat is great, in my opinion, and I do not raid or pvp, so I cannot opine on that portion of the OP's post.

However, I truly believe that a major portion of the "poor" sales numbers is the fact that a great deal of people do not like 1) MMOs that occur in the present; and/or 2) do not like zombie apocalypse games (I'm not sure how many are actually out there.); or, require a game that holds your hand through out the game (there is ZERO handholding in TSW.)

However, since the B2P change the first three maps are packed with people and less than 1% are the "this game sucks" teenage trolls one finds in other games. A game does not have to have huge numbers of people playing to make it a success.

Hedonismbot: Your latest performance was as delectable as dipping my bottom over and over into a bath of the silkiest oils and creams.

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Here are what I believe are the main reasons for poor initial sales of TSW, and why Funcom made a serious mistake in overestimating sales:

The game launched right before 2 major releases (GW2 and MoP). They should not have been anywhere near these releases

The game launched in the month of July -- terrible time, people are on vacation or away. October would have been the ideal launch month for TSW

Guerilla marketing only (Facebook ARG), but for a first rollout you need to do better than that. It should have been on TV: Scifi channel, Fringe, The Walking Dead

Lack of distribution and promotion from EA -- you did not see this game on shelves anywhere

Rated M title -- the demographic is automatically smaller -- no problem with that, just plan your sales accordingly

Niche genre -- modern day horror will never sell in the same numbers as fantasy. Again, no problem with that, just plan your numbers

Sub+cash shop model: It probably should have come out of the gate as B2P, as good as the game is. I never had an issue with the sub myself, but the sub was a serious barrier to entry for a brand new game with a niche audience anyway. Ah well, hindsight is 20-20.

I do NOT believe the poor sales were due to reviews (which were good to very good, with a few pans here and there). Players who tried the game tended to stay playing. B2P has been very good for the game, and lots of activity these days.

I do believe more companies need to plan more modest numbers when they budget these games. Heck, even SWTOR and GW2 never matched WoW numbers, and I think more companies need to use an EVE-like approach if they are to introduce a new MMO with any hope of financial sanity.

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The poor sales was due to failure of marketing, 95% of the people I mention this game to even to this day reply first with "I never heard of it" and then "Is it any good?". That alone says alot about why the game did so poorly. Aside from me watching it from the day it was announced until the day it launched there was little to no adverts save the occassional website adds which would be blocked by any decent ad-blocker.

Also the recent success this game has shown with the B2P model also strentghens the point that the game is good just poorly advertised. I have yet to meet a single person I got into this game that didn't liek it and my firends are very picky and dislike 80% of games I throw at them. Game needs some work but is far from bad and very close to fantastic.

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Originally posted by ScalplessI like TSW, but "does everything right"? "Little trolls"? Sounds like a rather typical case of fanboyism.

Yeah, agreed unnecessary. Argument without the fanticism always in short supply. ;)

True. He does make a lot of good points, although I've rarely seen some those arguments on this forum. If people have complained about TSW's quests or Cabals, I missed those posts.

Originally posted by Skooma2

However, I truly believe that a major portion of the "poor" sales numbers is the fact that a great deal of people do not like 1) MMOs that occur in the present; and/or 2) do not like zombie apocalypse games (I'm not sure how many are actually out there.); or, require a game that holds your hand through out the game (there is ZERO handholding in TSW.)

I don't believe this is true. Zombie games are very popular (DayZ, Dead Island, Dead Rising, Resident Evil, etc.) and people like guns and conspiracy theories. The lack of hand-holding combined with the rather high difficulty of later areas may be a reason, but I don't think it's THE reason.

I think TSW failed commercially simply because it wasn't polished enough. I don't mean the bugs, mind you, but the general "feel" of the game. It lacks a certain elegance many successful games have. It's a bit hard to describe, but where GW2 and WoW are fluid, flashy and easy to learn, TSW is clunky, bland and convoluted. It's still a great game and in many ways better than GW2, but first impressions matter and the first impression many got from TSW was far from great.

A flashy intro would help a lot. Now we've got half an hour of cutscenes and a tutorial that's far too long. Oh, and after that, you get to shoot zombies on a grey road. Yay. Absent marketing is also to blame. I know many gamers and none of them had heard of TSW when it launched.

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Originally posted by ScalplessI like TSW, but "does everything right"? "Little trolls"? Sounds like a rather typical case of fanboyism.

Yeah, agreed unnecessary. Argument without the fanticism always in short supply. ;)

True. He does make a lot of good points, although I've rarely seen some those arguments on this forum. If people have complained about TSW's quests or Cabals, I missed those posts.

Originally posted by Skooma2

However, I truly believe that a major portion of the "poor" sales numbers is the fact that a great deal of people do not like 1) MMOs that occur in the present; and/or 2) do not like zombie apocalypse games (I'm not sure how many are actually out there.); or, require a game that holds your hand through out the game (there is ZERO handholding in TSW.)

I don't believe this is true. Zombie games are very popular (DayZ, Dead Island, Dead Rising, Resident Evil, etc.) and people like guns and conspiracy theories. The lack of hand-holding combined with the rather high difficulty of later areas may be a reason, but I don't think it's THE reason.

I think TSW failed commercially simply because it wasn't polished enough. I don't mean the bugs, mind you, but the general "feel" of the game. It lacks a certain elegance many successful games have. It's a bit hard to describe, but where GW2 and WoW are fluid, flashy and easy to learn, TSW is clunky, bland and convoluted. It's still a great game and in many ways better than GW2, but first impressions matter and the first impression many got from TSW was far from great.

A flashy intro would help a lot. Now we've got half an hour of cutscenes and a tutorial that's far too long. Oh, and after that, you get to shoot zombies on a grey road. Yay. Absent marketing is also to blame. I know many gamers and none of them had heard of TSW when it launched.

The thing is that TSW really isn't a zombie game, though you might get that impression from Kingsmouth initially. But you are on to someting --I think that TSW is too subtle for its own good in many ways. I happen to LIKE that, but I can see how many people walked away scratching their heads and shrugging. The game grows on you, but you have to give it a chance.

Strangely enough, having played it awhile now, it seems to be like they couldn't have done it that much differently -- maybe better tutorials and help up front? I like the steep learning curve myself... Hmmm.

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opinions are not myths and neither are they absolute truth or absolute falsehoods but opinions are personal and relative only to yourself. That tirade in the op came off harsh, rude and tried to portray their opinions as definitive absolute truths and all others as wrong.

Sorry but thats not the way to garner support for TSW or to persuade others. Your opinion means as little to others as their opinions mean to you. Because I say so isnt a valid argument.

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Originally posted by TribeofOne

opinions are not myths and neither are they absolute truth or absolute falsehoods but opinions are personal and relative only to yourself. That tirade in the op came off harsh, rude and tried to portray their opinions as definitive absolute truths and all others as wrong.

Sorry but thats not the way to garner support for TSW or to persuade others. Your opinion means as little to others as their opinions mean to you. Because I say so isnt a valid argument.

Yeah overly harsh -- but he makes some good points too. He was in combat-mode, I think. ;)

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Originally posted by Ortwig

The thing is that TSW really isn't a zombie game, though you might get that impression from Kingsmouth initially. But you are on to someting --I think that TSW is too subtle for its own good in many ways. I happen to LIKE that, but I can see how many people walked away scratching their heads and shrugging. The game grows on you, but you have to give it a chance.

Strangely enough, having played it awhile now, it seems to be like they couldn't have done it that much differently -- maybe better tutorials and help up front? I like the steep learning curve myself... Hmmm.

Zombies, Cthulhu. vampires, ghosts, mummies... all of them are popular. They appear in pop culture more often than elves and goblins do.

I, too, don't mind complexity or subtlety. Hey, I enjoyed Anarchy Online and TSW is very easy compared to that mess. However, nowadays people are so used to "normal" MMOs you have to show them what you do differently from the start or they'll walk away.

If I could edit TSW's beginning a bit, I'd make the Tokyo flashback a vision your character has in the very beginning and focus on making it more exciting. Put some explosions in it, more surrealistic scenery, etc. Right now, it's one of the most bland places in the game, except for that final scene.

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The ability wheel is very impressive, until you learn that there's a HUGE amount of overlap - and VERY few abilities look and feel truly unique, like any great design will see to.

The animations are subpar - and the combat, especially ranged combat, is just boring.

But the rest of what you say is pretty much true. Quests, stories, atmosphere, and just overall PvE (except for combat) are fantastic.

That might be enough for some, and for others it might not be.

But don't lie to yourself and then to others to try and sell the game. That won't help. Honesty is much better, because the game really does have something special going on. It also has some very significant weaknesses - no matter how much you want to be in denial about it.