Bulking w/ the 40:40:20 diet

I've just started bulking with the 40:40:20 (P:C:F) diet. I'm currently 5'8, 145 pounds, and I'm trying to eat 2850 calories a day, keeping the aforementioned ratio. I'm having serious problems, though. At 20% fat intake, I can only eat about 63 g of fat in an entire day. One small 2 oz piece of cheese has almost 15 g of fat. Sure, I can eat more chicken and avoid the fat altogether, but the problem is, the chicken isn't calorie dense enough to help me hit that 2,850 calorie mark. Any advice?

Instead of having the fatty cheese, just put PB on your chicken breasts, or flaxseed oil or meal, and the calories will add up very quickly.

Also, grains such as oats, rice, are also very high in calories (almost 400 per 100 grams), and another easy way for the cals to stack up.

I can get to the calorie mark easily. The problem is keeping the 40:40:20 ratio. If I eat peanut butter on my chicken, every 2 tablespoons has 16 g of fat... that means 25% of my daily fat would be used up in one small dollop of Peanut butter. The problem isn't finding calories, it's finding calories without no fat.

I can get to the calorie mark easily. The problem is keeping the 40:40:20 ratio. If I eat peanut butter on my chicken, every 2 tablespoons has 16 g of fat... that means 25% of my daily fat would be used up in one small dollop of Peanut butter. The problem isn't finding calories, it's finding calories without no fat.

You don't need to have 40/40/20 with each meal, nor when bulking is it my essential to hit the ratio every day.

You could have some meals with more carbs, and others with more fat, keeping P fairly constant.

Indeed, separating C and F is considered by many as superior, because of decreased fat storage.

For eg, I'm bulking at moment, and today as I'm training twice, and doing about 40/40/20 (but as its bulking, I'm not anal on this) I will probably have 3 meals which are only C + P, 2 meals which are more balanced (C,P,F) and 1 meal that's just F and P. There is no need to be in a "zone" in each meal. Indeed, for bulking, 40/40/20 is more of a rough, week by week aspiration for me, and as long as I'm 30+ for P and C, 20+ for fat on any particular day, I consider that fine. I've been tracking it on Cron-O-Metere though, and looking at my food diary, I'd say I would average pretty close to 40/40/20, but the odd deviation (e.g., yesterday, 34/38/28, where I had a salmon/flaxseed salad for lunch, pushing up fats) is no big deal

You don't need to have 40/40/20 with each meal, nor when bulking is it my essential to hit the ratio every day.

You could have some meals with more carbs, and others with more fat, keeping P fairly constant.

Indeed, separating C and F is considered by many as superior, because of decreased fat storage.

For eg, I'm bulking at moment, and today as I'm training twice, and doing about 40/40/20 (but as its bulking, I'm not anal on this) I will probably have 3 meals which are only C + P, 2 meals which are more balanced (C,P,F) and 1 meal that's just F and P. There is no need to be in a "zone" in each meal. Indeed, for bulking, 40/40/20 is more of a rough, week by week aspiration for me, and as long as I'm 30+ for P and C, 20+ for fat on any particular day, I consider that fine. I've been tracking it on Cron-O-Metere though, and looking at my food diary, I'd say I would average pretty close to 40/40/20, but the odd deviation (e.g., yesterday, 34/38/28, where I had a salmon/flaxseed salad for lunch, pushing up fats) is no big deal

If calories are the most important part of a bulking diet, what's the harm in just eating pizza, tacos, etc, as long as you stay within your calorie limits? Would you put on more fat than muscle if you were eating 60:20:20 (C:P:F)?

Why don't you lower the carbs and up the fat intake? Personally I have been doing around 40% protien, 40%fat, 20%carbs. I find it much easier to get fats in my diet than carbs, since fat is 9 calories per gram compared to 4 for carbs. Also I believe healthy fats are a more vital portion of any diet in my oppinion.

If calories are the most important part of a bulking diet, what's the harm in just eating pizza, tacos, etc, as long as you stay within your calorie limits? Would you put on more fat than muscle if you were eating 60:20:20 (C:P:F)?

I'm not suggesting something that extreme - ur misrepresenting my post. I said I aim for a rough 40/40/20 across the week, "and as long as I'm 30+ for P and C, 20+ for fat on any particular day, I consider that fine"

It may be that 60/20/20 leads to greater fat storage - I wouldn't enjoy that little P anyway. What I was suggesting is that having 45/35/20 one day 35/45/20 is not going to be a nightmare

I'm not suggesting something that extreme - ur misrepresenting my post. I said I aim for a rough 40/40/20 across the week, "and as long as I'm 30+ for P and C, 20+ for fat on any particular day, I consider that fine"

It may be that 60/20/20 leads to greater fat storage - I wouldn't enjoy that little P anyway. What I was suggesting is that having 45/35/20 one day 35/45/20 is not going to be a nightmare

And I didn't advocate gorging on junk food.

I was actually trying to ask a question... if you could keep the 40/40/20 ratio and eat cookies, tacos, etc, what would the problem be? People on the board keep saying that the actually calorie intake is much more important than the macros, and if that's the case, who cares how you get to 2850 calories, even if it's with junk food? Can someone explain?

I was actually trying to ask a question... if you could keep the 40/40/20 ratio and eat cookies, tacos, etc, what would the problem be? People on the board keep saying that the actually calorie intake is much more important than the macros, and if that's the case, who cares how you get to 2850 calories, even if it's with junk food? Can someone explain?

Sorry, I misinterpreted to you.

Honestly, I'm not sure. I suspect that with a small calorie surplus, your not going to gain too much fat if you eat less clean food.

However, 40/40/20 is hard to maintain dirty. Most junk food is higher in fat and refined carbs, so you would be like 50/20/30 or 40/20/40.

There are a couple of problems with eating lots of junk though: decreased insulin sensitivity, & the insulin spikes may mean that a larger % of your calorie surplus is directed towards fat stores.

Honestly, I'm not sure. I suspect that with a small calorie surplus, your not going to gain too much fat if you eat less clean food.

However, 40/40/20 is hard to maintain dirty. Most junk food is higher in fat and refined carbs, so you would be like 50/20/30 or 40/20/40.

There are a couple of problems with eating lots of junk though: decreased insulin sensitivity, & the insulin spikes may mean that a larger % of your calorie surplus is directed towards fat stores.

Would you say then, that, in moderation, eating junk food is okay--whether you're bulking or cutting--as long as you stay within the caloric limits of your diet? Meaning, if you need 2850 calories to bulk, it really wouldn't matter if you had a hamburger, a Snickers bar, or some pizza in there?

Would you say then, that, in moderation, eating junk food is okay--whether you're bulking or cutting--as long as you stay within the caloric limits of your diet? Meaning, if you need 2850 calories to bulk, it really wouldn't matter if you had a hamburger, a Snickers bar, or some pizza in there?

Cutting, no not really, except as a cheat.

When your cutting, remember your playing with a limited amount of calories. It's important that they all count for a number of reasons
- a high protein intake is required to protect against muscle loss;
- most people reduce carbs during cutting, so its important that these carbs are uptaken by muscle cells as glycogen to fuel workouts, so therefore, you want to avoid insulin spikes except at optimal times (because carbs may be stored as fat not in muscle), & limit sugars that don't replenish muscle glycogen as much as others(fructose, HFCS, sucrose)
- sat fat has a higher insulin effect that unsat fat (which could mean a greater amount of your calorie deficit is fueled by your muscle stores, not fat), and moreover, some fats (omega 3) may increase fat oxidation.
- meeting micronutrients requries cleaner diet when you eating sub-calories

During bulking, its not as essential. Clearly, things like icecream and alcohol will ruin your macros. I think it depends on how easily you gain fat. The problem for me is I'm now conditioned to eat every 3-4 hours, and get hungry if I don't, so I'd find it difficult to have a 1,500 cal meal (Maccas) and then only eat 1500 cals rest of the day. The only time I have ever really gained much fat is when I'm not exercising - so I doubt eating 100% clean is necessary for bulking or maintenance - but I'm conditioned to it now anyway.

When your cutting, remember your playing with a limited amount of calories. It's important that they all count for a number of reasons
- a high protein intake is required to protect against muscle loss;
- most people reduce carbs during cutting, so its important that these carbs are uptaken by muscle cells as glycogen to fuel workouts, so therefore, you want to avoid insulin spikes except at optimal times (because carbs may be stored as fat not in muscle), & limit sugars that don't replenish muscle glycogen as much as others(fructose, HFCS, sucrose)
- sat fat has a higher insulin effect that unsat fat (which could mean a greater amount of your calorie deficit is fueled by your muscle stores, not fat), and moreover, some fats (omega 3) may increase fat oxidation.
- meeting micronutrients requries cleaner diet when you eating sub-calories

During bulking, its not as essential. Clearly, things like icecream and alcohol will ruin your macros. I think it depends on how easily you gain fat. The problem for me is I'm now conditioned to eat every 3-4 hours, and get hungry if I don't, so I'd find it difficult to have a 1,500 cal meal (Maccas) and then only eat 1500 cals rest of the day. The only time I have ever really gained much fat is when I'm not exercising - so I doubt eating 100% clean is necessary for bulking or maintenance - but I'm conditioned to it now anyway.

If you want to ensure the carbs are uptaken as glycogen during cutting, why would you not want the same during bulking?

Also, how does alcohol, like vodka, affect your diet? A shot of vodka is only 97 calories. Why would that be bad to drink during a bulk/cut?

And finally, going back to the idea of clean vs. dirty bulking... if you were to eat pretty much all junk food to get to 500 cals above your BMR, would you put on muscle and size, even if your macro ratio was terrible (let's say 65:30:5, C:F:P)

If you want to ensure the carbs are uptaken as glycogen during cutting, why would you not want the same during bulking?

Also, how does alcohol, like vodka, affect your diet? A shot of vodka is only 97 calories. Why would that be bad to drink during a bulk/cut?

And finally, going back to the idea of clean vs. dirty bulking... if you were to eat pretty much all junk food to get to 500 cals above your BMR, would you put on muscle and size, even if your macro ratio was terrible (let's say 65:30:5, C:F:P)

U'd want the proper glycogen update, but its less critical. For most people, many of the carbs they consume actually turn to fat, even if they're not getting fatter (the reason is people most of the time burn fat, except when engaging in exercise, but eat carbs, so what is happening is that some of the carbs are turning into fat, and that's what they are burning. Hence, 100% update won't necessarily happen on a bulk anyway).

1 vodka fine - referring to binge drinking more so.

As for clean vs. dirty bulking, opinions differs, its personal experience. Never tried dirty. Maybe post a poll and see what people say - it would be interesting to see the results of those who have tried both