A group of Christian anarchists has taken credit for the theft of $2,000 worth of calendars featuring scantily clad women from a Georgia shopping mall in Buford.

“Every day on the way to work, we had to walk by this kiosk. Each passing encounter forced a specific sexuality and beauty standard upon us, and we couldn’t take it anymore,” the alleged thieves wrote on the website JesusRadicals.com on December 4.

The website describes itself as a gathering place for “Christians who are also anarchists.”

The group of three Christian anarchists said one person distracted the sole employee at the kiosk on Black Friday while another person grabbed about 200 calendars off the shelves and replaced them with paper signs that read, “Sorry, misogyny is out of stock.” A third person acted as a lookout.

omg, that can’t possibly real?!?! Hillarious, and actually was a little hot, even tho I’m not normally into spanking;-D

Anarchy Pony

Splitters!

InfvoCuernos

I’ve been hearing of a lot of wacky behavior from xtians lately. Someone just told me about the latest thing being xtian youth pretending to do drugs and acting high, saying they are “high on christ”. It sounds so dumb, its gotta be true.

Dude…I heard stories at my high school about Christian sluts who would only do anal because “it didn’t count” and they would still be considered virgins.

😐

*face-palm*

InfvoCuernos

god bless those girls.

Dingbert

Jeez, why not just do drugs? The largest denomination (“Mansion”) of Rastafari is the Twelve Tribes of Israel, who accept Nicene Christianity.

jnana

Jesus didn’t exactly ban the use of “drugs” but St. Paul does say a follower of the Way shouldn’t lose their souls in revelry and distractions

Calypso_1

I’ve met some, actually using drugs, pretending not to use drugs, saying they are high on christ. Some of them have multi-million dollar ministries.

echar

That guy is a good liar, but he has tells.

jnana

yeah, it was weird traveling out west. it was the 1st time I really encountered people high on meth. and many who professed to be religious also said it was their medicine and brought them closer to god!

Calypso_1

I’ve known such persons. Even used it while sitting in meditation for hours. There are those who’s minds are driven intensely inward by he substance instead of more frenzied states.

InfvoCuernos

Spundar the barbarian.

Rhoid Rager

OK, i’ll be the dissenting voice here, i guess, but that was a laudable direct action. it shows that all who work in the mall are not unthinking consumer-driven material fetishists. they should have piled them in the mezzanine and burned them to add a bit of….flare…to their propaganda by the deed.

echar

Yeah but, what did this accomplish other than making them look like a bunch of daft people?

Rhoid Rager

as i understand it, that’s one of the primary misunderstandings of anarchism–direct actions, such as protests or window smashing or something else, are expected by others to immediately accomplish a political goal or usher in some sweeping new wave of value-driven revolution. These are false assumptions that are derived from the iconism of representative democracy–elections are framed in this manner; consider the bluster of Obama’s campaigners and the (as to expected) results. This only leaves people as disaffected souls, who resign themselves to the whims of their ‘masters’. This is a sleight of hand technique used to wrest our agency from us in a way that makes us believe that we are ceding it to ‘them’.

But no such transfer has ever, nor will ever take place. The depth of such trivial actions as stealing bikini calendars is an indication that we still have our own agency. It is wake-up call, of sorts, that is heeded by those that are not dismissive or uncurious about such things. Let me quote a very underquoted Anarchist–Voltairine de Cleyre: “Direct action is always the clamorer, the initiator, through which the
great sum of indifferentists become aware that oppression is getting
intolerable.”

echar

But they opressed the kiosk owner by stealing.

If they really wanted to cause a splash, they could collectively turn themselves into a mental hospital and claim that societies imbalances have caused them to be crazy. This way no one is at harm or loss.

From my perspective, protests and/or vandalism that causes another harm or loss is adding to the problem.

Rhoid Rager

I didn’t really want to take it this to a debate level, since it seems absurd (as everyone else on this list is treating it), but for the sake of clarification: This act may appear trifling, but taking it to be such at face value misses the point of it happening to begin with. It represents how people are unhappy with the status quo. It’s undertaken by people motivated enough by their values to take a risk in their own community to upset a certain order to express their unhappiness with the way society is structured.

Confrontation/intervention is never pretty, but people who engage in these confrontations or interventions do so under the knowledge that they are responding to systemic corruption in their society. You, obviously, are familiar with this, but our consumption patterns are entangled with oppression that is externalized everywhere but the place where the consumption takes place. If you buy clothes, chances are someone made them for a pittance in some other country, if you drive a car then that activity contributes to human misery in some other area of the world. The list, as you know, goes on. If we extend our vision to understand ourselves embedded in this web of corruption that extends around the world, local interventions become a necessary (think intervening with the destructive behaviour of an addict) and inevitable (think blowback) consequence. Maybe the bikini calendar vendor is hurt financially, but he’s certainly got food for thought now, even if it doesn’t register immediately.

You could almost consider direct action to be our own conscience manifesting in the external world to shake us from our moral slumber.

echar

I didn’t intend this as a debate. I respect you too much, and it’s obvious to me that you know more intellectually about this topic. Mostly a dialogue aproach.

Anyhow I get all that about taking action, yet I feel it did more harm than good. They may feel awesome about it, but the internet is full of porn, movie stars are thin as rails, and the Kiosk owner is just trying to make a buck. Sex sells.

Rhoid Rager

I tend to be a contrarian on the internet and in real life. I seldom shy away from a debate, which probably accounts for my lack of friends. lol! I can be a very argumentative prick sometimes. 😉

echar

I don’t experience you as such., btw. I am not an anarchist, infact I got over that when I was 15 and didn’t know what it meant. I thought the A was cool.

Rhoid Rager

i was the opposite. i was in ROTC in high school (CO of my unit! LOL!) and eventually got over my fascist tendencies that my education inculcated in me by the age of 24 or so. my youth was saturated with conservative ideologies. i self-identified as anarchist around the same time. i find myself radicalising the older i get. i’m 35 now, and i feel myself moving further away from civilization and rigid forms of hierarchy culture.

i integrate my perspective in the way i raise my children. some people make the spurious claim that anarchists raising their children as anarchists unnecessarily politicises them; but, i argue that it’s the exact opposite. raising children with some sort of unfounded loyalty towards a specific method of relating to others (as in recognizing the state as a legitimate arbiter of human relations, or the capitalist mode of production as somehow a legitimate and fair way to organize material resources in society) is psychologically harmful when the loyalty that the child puts in those traditional methods is unrequited through institutional failings, i.e. corruption, deceit, violence etc.

echar

I am a human, and do what I feel is best. I recognised that we are all connected. Any action we take can affect others as well as ourselves. I was raised strict Mormon and have been rebelling for years. I realise there are issues beyond myself and I do the best I can. Don’t be me wrong, I have stolen and vandalised in the past.

To be clear, I see these people’s actions as a white paper spitwads against a whiteboard. They can sit in their desks, laugh, and feel all righteous. Meanwhile some poor sap has to clean up the mess.

Also, if it works for you and make sure your children to grow up well, then do it.

exactly. the kiosk owner is making a buck by selling misogynistic material that leads to the corruption of men and low self-esteem for women, which all creates ripple effects in our world. Maybe its one more thing thatleads to a young girl committing suicide.
These anarchists have a sensitive discerning mind that sees how these images support oppression and decided to do something about it.

echar

Ok we can play this game. How about their actions encourage a youth to break the law. Then this youth gets busted and placed in juvenile detention. While there he gets raped by the security guard.

This youth also learns how to break more laws, and gets out an even bigger criminal, with some emotional scars, to boot. This now older youth learns to make bombs, and through his delusions targets a place. Little does he know there are children in that building and they all die.

Way to go smarmy, rationalizing, and ironic anarchists. You just killed future children.

jnana

well, we all know there are unintended consequences to our actions. some consequences are more clear and direct than others. selling oversexualized images have fairly clear and direct consequences and is more clearly selfish and supportive of oppression than what these folx did. I don’t know if what they did was right, but I do support their intentions and I wouldn’t consider it stealing, as it wasn’t for their sole benefit.

echar

For all you or these “anarachists” know, a sexually repressed person uses the calendars as a release. Now that he cannot access the calendars he will rape someone.

jnana

if someone feels the need to rape to achieve sexual release, supporting their objectification of women is not the answer. it only serves to enable them and may be one of the reasons they feel women aren’t worthy of respect

echar

So these smarmy ideologists objectification of someone elses property is different? They raped that person in another way, while sitting back afterwards and masturbating their egos with some tale about the greater good.

jnana

would it be wrong to appropriate the profits of a pimp and expose his evil, even if it does put food on his kids’ table? how about destroying weapons that are used to oppress the poor and brown skinned?

Rus Archer

bikini calendars are not inherently misogynistic
or did you pop out of a test tube?

jnana

I understand that in our culture oversexualized images of women is normal, but that doesn’t make it ok. those pictures serve to manipulate young girls’ body image.

Rus Archer

what about calendars of fat women in bikinis?
the calendars don’t serve to manipulate young girls’ body image
but to profit off of the natural appreciation of human form that humans, both male and female, feel
keep up the excellent trollwork, though

jnana

NATURAL appreciation of human form?
have you seen the cowboys cheerleaders? not quite sure i’d call them “natural”.
yer probably not a young girl, or any aged girl, I imagine. you haven’t lived through the pressures they face.

Rus Archer

natural appreciation
not
appreciation of the natural
physical attraction = biological
it serves a real function

James Nimmons

wow..such a long winded defense of some douches stealing calendars..why not do something MORE damaging to the status quo? or is that just too difficult?

Rhoid Rager

i wasn’t being long-winded for the sake of them, i was being long-winded for the sake of echar, a respected regular here. who are you and when did you stumble in to vomit your opinion on here?

echar

I was curious as to why Mr. Rhoid Rager was taking his stance.

Rus Archer

if they really want to make a difference
learn what an arche ism means
and stop believing in god

echar

Are you suggesting this towards me? I don’t understand.

jnana

god is the ultimate anarchist. God imposes his will on no one who doesn’t choose it.
God creates the law of no laws.
you need to refine yer senses to get to understand god even a little bit.

Rus Archer

dictionary/etymology
god = arche

jnana

arche = power
god transcends the concept of power. hence, his weakness is strength.
also, the word arche is used to refer to the god of this world(the demiurge) and his archons/minions

Rus Archer

it meant/s a lot more than just power
origin
first cause
sovereignty
domination
god is the ultimate anarchist? in which tradition?
shall we argue about whether or not physics exerts its power over us?
if we want to just ignore consensual (and sometimes historical) meanings of words
then debate becomes meaningless

of course, it would make sense for christians to consider themselves anarchists
since they consistently confuse things like freedom/oppression, hate/love, truth/deception
…

jnana

well, an anarchist is not a person against or without origins or first causes. an anarchist is without and against power and domination. some anarchists claim not to be against power but instead the unequal deistribution of power.
god is the ultimate anarchist in the gnostic(pre-orthodox) tradition, just as the tao is the ultimate anarchist in the Taoist tradition. other Xian traditions that have agreement w/ anarchy include Mennonite and Anabaptists, some catholics, some orthodox

Rus Archer

no amount of cherrypicking definitions and sects makes christianity compatible with anarchism
look at the words and concepts and histories of these words, concepts and traditions
christ-ian
the whole thing hinges on the authority and power of christ
the whole identity of christ = one of authority
the gnostic sects hardly lacked hierarchical structures
the nag hammadi is full of lists of spiritual hierarchical structures of deities, archons, emanations

sure, many may find their beliefs compatible with certain political aspects of anarchism
but the spiritual/religious authority remains regardless of how you interpret it

jnana

an anarchist may recognize authorities. it would be irrational and stupid not to. some people are more skilled or knowledgeable than you are and it would be prudent to humble yerself and submit to their authority until the day when you, too, can be as authoritative.
Jesus said we are gods and should be acting like it. If we aren’t then we have to depend on God as an outside helper. When we can do as we will, then we are one with God.
As for the deities, archons and emanations of gnostic lore they are pretty well demonized, except for the emanations. But each emanation is a perfect expression of god, containing the Pleroma within it and contained by the pleroma. They are basically coequal w/ god in my opinion. Although, some say they are a hierarchy, I disagree. Emanation cosmogony is meant to explain evil. I’m more of a dualist

James Nimmons

why don’t they seize other jobs and stop stealing? i mean i see all kinds of shit for sale that makes me sick..but i don’t break the law about it.. i suppose they COULD pool their resources and try to get this sitting govt to vacate its post..but thats hard…stealing calendars is easy….douches.

Rhoid Rager

Well, i’m convinced. Where do i sign up for the Church of Nimmons?

Kropotkin1936

“i mean i see all kinds of shit for sale that makes me sick..but i don’t break the law about it..”

Well there’s your problem…

Sounds to me like your pissed at them for doing what you don’t dare

jnana

i’m sure you break the law sometimes

DeepCough

“Sorry, misogyny is out of stock.”

Idea: go to a Family Christian Bookstore, distract the stores clerk, disable security cameras, take out all the Bibles, then put a sign on the empty shelves that says,
“Sorry, misogyny is out of stock.”

Rhoid Rager

“Sorry, misogyny, genocide, homophobia, fratricide, fear-mongering, and self-loathing are out of stock”
As the quirky little internet cliché goes; there, fixed it for ya!

DeepCough

Yeah, I’d say that covers it.

jnana

sounds like someone is a little prejudiced.

DeepCough

And you sound awfully vague.

jnana

prejudiced towards xians, that is

DeepCough

How do you figure?

jnana

your perception of xians and Christ’s teachings seems to be tainted by prejudice. I don’t think ive read a single comment of yers that is at all positive concerning xians.
I personally despise much of modern secular philosophy but I still can find myy self agreeing with it on specific issues.
rather than bashing groups of people and their beliefs, don’t you think you should instead find common ground and start from there. its much more effective in exposing delusional harmful beliefs than simply bashing

DeepCough

You confuse the word “prejudice” with criticism: as my comment demonstrates, I’m simply positing an ironic scenario
showing that the “Christian anarchists” aren’t quite as righteous as they seem, because, for one, they haven’t read much of the Holy Bible–which does not purport a very positive view of women–(granted, most of it is in the Old Testament), and second, this group acted out as reactionary moralists and stole property that wasn’t theirs, and in so doing, they caused demonstrable harm to the owner of those calendars, which in turn, cost the employees of the kiosk their Christmas bonuses.
Now what pray tell was Christian about this act of theft, I wonder?

jnana

property is theft- pierre Proudhon(French anarchist)

Christ also was accused of stealin(on the Sabbath!) when he took food from farmers’ fields they were passing through. and when he ate the bread offering @ the temple. his views on private property aren’t exactly as capitalistic as some may claim.

I would like to add that as a Christian, I don’t consider the bible as some absolute authority. protestants and most orthodox xians claim that the Bible is a perfect authority for all who call themselves Xian, but the bible itself makes clear the written word does not equal life.

jeremiah, for example:

A New Covenant
…32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. 33″But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34″They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”…

DeepCough

So why couldn’t they just forgive the kiosk owner for selling
the calendars to begin with?

jnana

the kiosk owner would need to repent first and stop selling misogyny, then comes forgiveness. how can you forgive someone who doesn’t repent?

DeepCough

Is misogyny a sin?

jnana

in my opinion, women are deserving of respect and love. so, yes, for me, misogyny is a sin. and I don’t intend to pretend its ok to view women as sex objects(even those that are deluded into believing they are)

DeepCough

Your opinion is fine and dandy but fails to explain how misogyny is a sin, or act against the Will of God. And for the record, the Bible has no real qualms with viewing women as “sex objects” because the purpose of a woman is child bearing.

echar

Or if they fail to be good property, to stone.

jnana

as I said earlier, you don’t have to consider the bible to be the sole authority on what is the will of god to be a Christian. not to mention, who determines how to interpret the bible.

so, yes, the bible may have parts in it that are misogynistic, but so what, it doesn’t change what is truly God’s Will. y’know, letter of the law and all that.

concerning the OT, Ptolemy expounded on it and its origins(much better than I can) in his letter to Flora. from Wikipedia:

“Ptolemy’s works have reached us in an incomplete form as follows:

a fragment of an exegetical writing preserved by Irenæus;[2] and

an epistle to Flora, a Christian[3] lady not otherwise known to us.

The latter is found in the works of Epiphanius.[4] It was written in response to Flora’s inquiry concerning the origin of the Law of the Old Testament. The Decalogue, Ptolemy states, cannot be attributed to the Supreme God, nor to the devil; indeed, the set of laws does not even proceed from a single law-giver. A part of it is the work of an inferior god, analogous to the gnostic demiurge; the second part is attributable to Moses, and the third part to the elders of the Jewish people. In addition, Ptolemy subdivides the part of the Decalogue ascribed to the inferior god into three further sections:

the absolutely pure legislation of the Decalogue which was not destroyed but fulfilled by the Saviour;

the laws mixed with evil, including the right of retaliation, which were abolished by the Saviour because they were incompatible with His nature;

the section which is typical and symbolical of the higher world.

This part of the Decalogue includes such precepts as circumcision and fasting and was raised by the saviour from a sensible to a spiritual plane. The god who is the author of the law, insofar as it is not the product of human effort, is the demiurge who occupies a middle position between the Supreme God and the devil. He is the creator of the material universe, is neither perfect nor the author of evil, but ought to be called ‘just’ and benevolent to the extent of his abilities.

DeepCough

I asked you whether or not misogyny was a sin, and
apparently, it’s not a sin, since you cannot properly explain
the attitude toward the sexes the Bible has,which, mind you,
is extremely biased toward men, because, the Council of Nicaea, the committee responsible for codifying the faith
of Christianity, was predominantly male. How about picking
an entry from Wikipedia that doesn’t dance around the damn point?

jnana

does your conscience say its ok to hate women?

mine does.

so its a sin.
skip to verses 13-15 if this is too much bible for you

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

DeepCough

Okay, okay, I read your entire comment and all of its verses, and just after reading the first paragraph, I ask myself, did those “Christian anarchists” read this passage? Probably not, but hey, everyone needs a pretext for a behavior, and the Bible gives people a lot of different pretexts for behavior, so, on the one hand, this passage very much discourages, say, an act of theft (of bikini calendars), but if one simply read verses 12-15, they would just as easily find themselves justified in stealing (bikini calendars).
But since your standard of sin is based on personal conscience, then the sin of misogyny neither here nor there. So, in conclusion, the petty theft of those bikini calendars was just dumb and rather mean-spirited, of course, that is what those zealous “Christian anarchists” wanted, but alas, that makes them infinitely more criminal than the mall kiosk itself.

Andrew

Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
— Luke 23:34

jnana

yeah but in another passage he adds the caveat, “if he repents (sincerely?)”

Andrew

So if he doesn’t repent, do you suggest following him around trying to make him feel guilty or nurturing your resentment or what? Because there are a fair number of people who have wronged me and not apologized, and I try to not dwell on their faults and work on correcting my own.

jnana

maybe there’s 2 types of forgiveness or something. cause I do believe in forgiving the unrepentant because no one would sin against you if they weren’t either weak or ignorant. I believe maliciousness stems from ignorance. Ignorance about who we really are(eternal beings suffering delusions of lack, stemming from identifying w/ the material cosmos). Ignorance about where we came from and where we’re going. And ignorance about what is good and ultimately, the most pleasurable. And if someone isn’t harming you from maliciousness the only other reason would be from weakness.
Perhaps the malicious are deserving of blame. But I cant see why someone would choose to be malicious if they really KNOW. Which is why someone who does know is in greater danger of judgment.
So, I still choose to forgive everyone. But, there is no possibility of unity(or at-one-ment) until they repent and I generally avoid their company as they are choosing to ignore the Spirit of Love, which is my Self.
Now, if someone is obviously causing me or another intentional harm, I wouldn’t call it unspiritual to physically stop that individual, especially if it is someone else they are harming.
I’ve been reading excerpts of Aristotle’s Ethics and I like what he has to say about living the ethical life. it isn’t in following a set of commandments set in stone, but in discerning how to discern what is just in every unique situation

jnana

I asked this question to another commenter, but i’ll ask you, too
would it be ok to take the profits from a pimp(even one who feeds his family from the suffering of others)? and is it ok to expose his oppression game?
would it be ok to destroy guns and bombs and the factories that make implements of mass destruction to kill the poor and brown skinned(even if those who work there feed their families by working there)? and is it ok to expose their games of destruction?
what about the cops who arrest drug dealers, some who have few other opportunities to feed their families.

DeepCough

I’m not sure if you read the article, but this was not a sting against against a greedy pimp trafficking in human sex-slaves,
this was a mall kiosk selling calendars depicting women in
bikinis. Call me a male chauvinist, but that is hardly misogynist
material.

jnana

yer a male chauvinist
or maybe just conditioned by your culture to find that acceptable
😉

DeepCough

And you’re a reactionary moralist who likes to stand on
the Holy Bible like it’s a soapbox instead of cracking it open
to see what it really says.

echar

Come on dudes. It’s just words.

jnana

that’s funny cause I have said numerous times that I don’t regard the holy bible as my only spiritual authority. quite the contrary. I receive inspiration from all kinds of religious scriptures but consider the Living Spirit my ultimate authority.

DeepCough

The notion that sexual objectification is not approved of in the
Bible is an incredibly lame argument, considering that women
are defined as subservient and inferior to men from the very
beginning (Genesis). Also, the outrage these “Christian anarchists” had toward scantily clad women wasn’t based at all
on the objectification of women, but the moral outrage of
sexual innuendo in a public place, something that Christians,
particularly Protestants, have been bitching about for centuries. If they didn’t like what they saw, why didn’t they
just pluck their eyes out? While we’re at it, why didn’t they
cut their hands off, too, so as to prevent them from stealing?

echar

There is scientific proof that men being attracted to the female form is in our DNA. Women will look at mens crotches too, as well as muscles. So yeah. I get what you are saying all throughout this, but I mostly disagree.

jnana

its possible to consciously and intentionally refine what attracts us. In fact, according to Socrates Plato and others, that is a prime duty of a philosopher.
Doing that will lead to sharing a greater happiness w/ others and causing less suffering for them as well.
we are programmed to be selfish. but we can be aware of the program and transcend it

echar

You can avert your gaze all you like. Have at it.

jnana

if it is harmful to me and my sisters, that’s what I ought to do.
I can’t say provoking lust will lead to each other’s greatest happiness.
and
i’d rather not be entrenched in the petty dramas and stupid games of this world. especially when people suffer because of it.

echar

So stealing over $2000 of merchandise is ok, yet looking at boobs is bad?

This seems like some moral chicanery to me, or some mighty fine trolling. Not meant as insult, I just don’t get it, and probably never will.

jnana

is $ more important than people?

echar

Is an ideology more important than people?

jnana

not at all, and I cant speak for those who did such an action, but do you think they did it to support their ideology? if so, that’s wrong. now, if they did it out of love for their sisters it might be considered commendable. but the suffering of the merchant should still be considered. I agree that is vitally important.
so, if someone is profiting from another’s oppression is it yer duty to do something about it when presented the opportunity? is it ok to allow it when your heart is touched?

echar

but do you think they did it to support their ideology?

If this is real, it appears to me that this is the case. That they rationalised their criminal actions.

if someone is profiting from another’s oppression is it yer duty to do something about it when presented the opportunity?

I don’t know. For me, this is a tough question to answer. However, in this instance. I’d be more likely to make sure these people got caught, than to take from some kiosk owner just trying to make a buck.

is it ok to allow it when your heart is touched?

Causing deliberate harm or damage to create change will only create more harm and damage.

Andrew

I don’t believe that deliberately damaging property is always wrong.

echar

Maybe destroying the statue of a despot or something.

emperorreagan

I’ve set money (my own) on fire in front of other fairly well off people and watched them freak out. Not sure if they ever connected the reverence or attachment they felt to the greenback with the outrage they expressed at me for destroying it, though.

echar

This is something I can get behind.

Mike Zero

Did you just compare calendars to prostitution and firearms??? Christians are funny. And diluted. But mostly just funny.

Rus Archer

in the new testament
even jesus implies everyone = masculine in heaven
and treats women like second class citizens
paul continues with this
people need to stop apologizing for a religion they clear know very little about

jnana

no, in heaven there is neither male nor female.

27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus

the misognystic parts of the NT are likely additions according to scholars. not to mention its not the written word we are to obey, but God’s Spirit

PrimateZero

And your the authority on what your imaginary sky daddy wants? What does god’s spirit look like and when was the last time you visited heaven? So many questions….

jnana

Know thyself.
Well, we’re made in God’s Image, so if I know myself I can know God

PrimateZero

And when was the last time you visited heaven? Again a simple question that I know will not be answered without a whole lot of bullshit.

kowalityjesus

That is a red herring if e’er I did see one. Not that I would ever want to engage in a discussion with a hackneyed provocateur.

PrimateZero

How is it a red herring? Oh I see… you know this shit’s all make believe, and that there will not be a coherent answer.

jnana

I exist in heaven eternally. Eternity is immanent(within time, within myself), transcendent(outside of time, outside myself) and neither immanent nor transcendent, AND immanent and transcendent
😉
thanks for reminding me, though.

kowalityjesus

I miss you jnana, hope you’re doing well. Great comments by the way.

Rus Archer

like the 1 yot and tittle?
the biblical jesus = a jew
he doesn’t eliminate the o.t.
paul did that one just for the gentiles
in conflict with jesus’ command to adhere to the law even more rigorously than the pharisees and sadducees
we can sit around arguing what a great feminist hippie jesus was
2000 years after the fact
but neither the texts nor the tradition back this up

and when you finally get honest about the god’s spirit argument
you realize that YOU determine via your own feelings, experiences and prejudices what qualifies as god’s spirit
meaning YOU are the guy behind the curtain
no need for the christ

Jin The Ninja

actually much of the apocrypha DOES in fact, back it up. it is the institutional and canonical narrative that does not.

not that there’s no truth in that jesus, but that it is likely skewed. jesus was probably quite literate, yet there may be a reason he didn’t write down his teachings.

(52) His disciples said to him, “Twenty-four prophets spoke in Israel, and all of them spoke in you.”
He said to them, “You have omitted the one living in your presence and have spoken (only) of the dead.”
as for determining what is right by my feelings, I have a lot of conflicting feelings, being a human born into this mixture. god’s spirit only inspires some of them. other feelings may be a result of conditioning and/or biological and/or carnal/demonic. it is my choice to follow the Holy Spirit which is in opposition w/ some of these feelings. And how do I determine what the Holy Spirit is telling me? She speaks in manifold ways. Through scripture, through Her children including nature, through my conscience, etc.

Rus Archer

quoting paul, not christ
christ said there is no marriage in heaven because they will be like the angels in heaven
with the exception of the cherubim and seraphim, biblical angels are always referred to and described as men
you had to have testicles to get admitted into the temple that god designed
if he wouldn’t let non-sperminators into his earthly dwelling, what makes you think he’d let them into his heavenly one?

Noah_Nine

i don’t want to go to a heaven filled with barbie and ken dolls…..

kowalityjesus

THIS is Internet HERESY!!!! BURN HIM!!!!!

echar

We’ll need your expert direction. 😛

*backfire (pun intended)

kowalityjesus

What, on the internet? I can say with a high degree of certainty that people who try to make compromises and come to realistic conclusions on the internet in general are viewed as heretics. It is an utterly poisonous state of affairs. Only with ridicule can I fend off people that disagree with me. It is pathetically hilarious hahaha.

echar

No on burning at the stake. If you can’t stand the heat…

bwahahahaha!

ok I am done.

kowalityjesus

I must not share your sense of humor.

echar

Hang around a bit, your humor may pear up if your wrack your mind some more. Before too long you’ll be kicking stars with uncontrollable laughter.

Bwahahahaha!

Ok, now I am really done.

kowalityjesus

wat

echar

Those are all examples of torture used by the inquisition. Lighten up (no pun intended this time), I am joking with you.

kowalityjesus

don’t treat me like a token. what kind of ancient guilt are you weighed down by? what sins of the fathers should be brought to bear on YOU?

echar

Well you made a comment about heresy and burning. Considering you are a catholic, I thought this was intended as dark humor, at best. Also, I don’t believe in sin. I can’t help it if you feel like a token.

To be honest I like you, even if I percieve your religion as one of the greatest evils on earth. Much like you think I can be redeemed, I feel you can be restored.

kowalityjesus

I never edited the first comment. Yes, you (and others) can help it if I feel like a token. You have no burden of stewardship; if you would like to walk a mile in my shoes, don’t bring up something cheap every time you see my avatar. How would you like it if somebody was always picking on you for being different?
The Germans say that irregular verbs are “strong” because they don’t conform to the normal grammar rules. Because I don’t conform with the standard Internet Credo (you are fooling yourself if you think there isn’t one), I think I am both irregular and strong, and I don’t mind calling you conformist and weak for floating along faceless and falling in with those who pick on unpopular opinions.

echar

Are you still butthurt over the backlash to you supporting the abusive christian brainwashing schools? Beleive me when I say I can understand why you would.

Also, I suggest you do not mention heresy and burning around a of group of people who if they lived back when would likely be tortured and burned at the stake. Unless it was said in jest, then one should expect jest in return. Do as though wilt, KJ.

PS

I noticed you had not edited. I did edit that part out of my reply. Essentially I am saying chill man. This is the interent, give it and bit and let it settle. Hardly anyone will remember. The next squirrell will come along.

kowalityjesus

I was making fun of the fact that people were lambasting jnana and downvoting him when he was actively trying to make peace.

“rather than bashing groups of people and their beliefs, don’t you think
you should instead find common ground and start from there. its much
more effective in exposing delusional harmful beliefs than simply
bashing”

It is so ri-goddamn-diculous that this comment was downvoted, as a shiteater would. What a bunch of fucks and haters. This comments section is full of closed-minded people that are so closed-minded that they think they are openminded. HAHA what shit.

echar

Closed minded like you were about the abusive Christian brainwashing schools? Even though two people replied saying they experienced what it was like firsthand?

echar

I am not perfect, are you?

echar

I like you more when you are saying awesome stuff, like Jesus loves you.

Here is another question. If your faith is so strong, then what does it matter what we think?

kowalityjesus

I am ruthlessly entwined with those with whom I correspond. The devil was happy I said what I said, but I was happy with what I said. Forgive me Lord, and forgive them Lord (but only if they know not what they do). Apologies if any of that last one may have seemed directed toward you, it was to the pernicious downvoters amongst. Thanks for absorbing my woes for a moment. I seem to recall you had a tag-along demon previously. That must mean you are inculcated!

Andrew

I may disagree with you and jnana on a good number of spiritual and factual matters, but I want to confirm that a good deal of the crap that’s been thrown at you guys in the comments of this particular post has been pretty shallow.

echar

echar

Also, if you see me as a conformist. That’s your trip. I do apreciate the honesty, but know this. I am no strnager to going against the grain. See in this very thread.

There’s a whole bunch of Anarchists here, with plenty of support. I said, hey I can’t back that up, and I think it’s a harmful way of being.

jnana

isn’t it a little ironic when those who espouse amoral or immoral beliefs claim its immoral(though they wouldn’t use that term) to be moral or preach morality? not to mention how horrible they think it is should a believer preach. Kinda like when some guy’s preaching on the corner and atheists come up to him preaching that he shouldn’t be preaching.
and yet, some claim there is no more persecution of Christians in the western world.(although, i’m not going to pretend its as severe as earlier times, nor that there’s not a bunch of persecution BY Christians)

kowalityjesus

Its like when a commenter criticized me for calling another comment “blasphemous and not funny/clever” by saying “for some people blasphemy could be glory.”

It is the moral equivalent of eating shit. Do not get.

Dingbert

“Antichristian clusterfuck” is a great name for a band and for what’s happening here. Those self-proclaimed teenage Christian Anarchists are doing the same stupid things self-proclaimed teenage non-Christian Anarchists do. But anarchist isn’t the word anyone is interested in.

jnana

yeah, but even if it weren’t actually Xian anarchists, the action brings up a lot of important questions. would this be an appropriate action if they were followers of Christ? is anarchism and anarchistic direct action compatible w/ Christ’s teachings? what is the appropriate action of Christ’s followers towards the Empire?

Dingbert

This wasn’t the right thing to do. Christ resisted nonviolently, but He was not passive-aggressive. He had no problem with confronting and appealing to people face-to-face, which should always be step one.
Christ admonished the money changers and then broke all their stuff. He didn’t secretly steal it all and then leave snarky little notes behind.

jnana

well, i dont think that a xian has to exactly follow what the jesus in the bible did. who knows what else he did? (and, he did hide when it was the appropriate time). i think the canonical bible has some good suggestions about appropriate action, but jesus makes it clear there is no written law to be obeyed, but the law God puts in our heart.

DeepCough

Okay, if these people are as Christian and anarchist as they claim to be, then why are they living in a society they consider to be sinful? Moreover, why are they on the most sinful thing of all–the Internet?!

jnana

cause we gotta be in the world, not of it.

DeepCough

Well, I mean, uh, maybe we humans are in the world,
because, y’know, we are of the world.
I mean, hasn’t that ever occurred to you, man?

Noah_Nine

easier said than done….

Dingbert

Beats me. Maybe because they’re idiots?

DeepCough

Your answer is acceptable.

Andrew

I’m neither a Christian nor an anarchist, and I view the society I live in to be “evil.”

echar

I view it as mostly neutral, but with good and evil influences.

DeepCough

Fair enough, but at least you’re not overwhelmingly pretentious about it.

daciang

Oh, please. “society” (whatever that is), is not “evil” (whatever that is). It’s like saying “machinery” is evil, or “post-modernism” is evil, or, more to the (non-) point, “government” is “evil”.. Sounds like you’re trying to sound smarter than everybody else by providing a deep-sounding simple answer. If only it were that easy.

From Sister Megan Rice’s wikipedia article: “On July 28, 2012, Rice, at 82 years old, and two fellow activists
(Michael R. Walli, 63 years old, and Gregory I. Boertje-Obed, 57 years
old) broke into the Y-12 National Security Complex in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, spray-painted antiwar slogans, and splashed blood on the outside of the heavily guarded Highly Enriched Uranium Materials Facility.The New York Times reported that nuclear experts called this action “the biggest security breach in the history of the nation’s atomic complex.” Rice, Walli, and Boertje-Obed were charged with misdemeanor trespass and “destruction and depredation” of government property (a felony)[1] and may face up to a $100,000 fine and up to a year in prison. However they were charged with damaging a defense facility under the
sabotage act, a sentence of up to 20 years in prison, and charged with
causing more than $1,000 damage to government property, up to 10 years
in prison. On May 9, 2013, the three were convicted. In her testimony Sister Megan said “I regret I didn’t do this 70 years ago.”

Rhoid Rager

It’s easy to take such a two dimensional approach if you don’t expose yourself to the teachings of all the various anarchists throughout history. There is much nuance to the arguments for anarchy; and each anarchist offers insight to the wider struggle. Resistance to dominance ultimately allows different approaches to converge. If you think that Christian anarchism is not a well-thought out approach, then have a read of Tolstoy’s The Kingdom of God is Within You.

emperorreagan

Also an easy approach to take if you Christian beliefs as monolithic.

Rejecting Paul, for instance, opens Christianity up to a completely different reading than the one associated with current institutional Christianity.

jnana

But Paul says so many inspiring and edifying things. the parts that seem misogynistic or oppressive are likely additions. but even if they’re not, its up to you to find out whether your spirit confirms the truth of what he says

emperorreagan

Tolstoy rejected both Paul & the dogma of the Russian Orthodox church, which is why I picked that particular example. His reading of Christianity is very different than what you would find in institutional Christianity.

I rejected the Pauline texts as a young teen when I was going through confirmation, as I found them out of line with my own reading at the time.

Calypso_1

What if Paul was just a Roman operative?

jnana

sure, could be possible. but i’m practically speaking more of a mythicist. I believe god did inhabit jesus in time, historically. but in many ways, myth is more alive to me. so until I know the real history of paul, its just speculation. in the meantime, I choose to be inspired by the story of Paul’s life and the words attributed to him. of course, I reserve the right to disagree with what he says. he even admitted he wasn’t perfect. so what would make everything he says be perfect?

Jin The Ninja

“this is my holy book. these are the words of our people. please ignore the writing and make shit up- if it feels right.”

totally biblical. king james version?

jnana

i have many holy books. but they are only the fingers pointing @ the moon. i prefer to read the book of life in the present moment

Jin The Ninja

fair enough.
but it isn’t then ‘scriptural.’ just to clarify.

Rhoid Rager

Can we leave the Beatles out of this, please?

echar

Surely we can twist Helter Skelter to support some anarchist like action. Oh wait! I jest.

emperorreagan

When Paul opts to front Nirvana, he has it coming.

Andrew

Christian anarchist = Antinomian

echar

That’s the majority of christians, in my experience.

jnana

well, that is what Jesus taught. Faith and Wisdom, not obedience to the laws written in a book a thousand years ago

Andrew

Don’t forget Compassion. That was primary.

jnana

yeah, makes me wonder why so many bash his teachings. I used to do that until I realized I was simply prejudiced. not to mention deceived by those who claim to follow Christ but act more like the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Rhoid Rager

I’m utterly baffled that so few Christians explore the reason behind the singular episode of violent behaviour by Jesus. Of course, doing so might result in the ransacking of all banks….

jnana

im utterly baffled by much of Xian behavior. but state propaganda has been tweaking Jesus’ teachings to support their power systems for a long time now. and power systems the world over have been doing the same to other local popular religions.
Try reading Burning Water. Its about the original Quetzalcoatl cult and what happened when the state appropriated it. Basically, it started as a self-sacrificing penitential and ascetic religion to one that demanded blood sacrifices from OTHERS and allowed for the decadence of the elites

jnana

im utterly baffled by much of Xian behavior. but you have to remember that centuries of state propaganda altered peoples perceptions of Christ’s teachings

echar

He taught to love thy enemy, thy neighbor, and one another.

jnana

love manifests in infinite ways

Jin The Ninja

but it’s only meaningful in action.

echar

Act like idiots and claim some ideology? There’s nothing noble about this.

jnana

idiotic times call for idiotic measures!

echar

So add to opression, while claiming to fight it?

jnana

it is practically impossible for an American not to add to oppression. We all do what we can. Am I saying they made the perfect decision for the revolution? not really. but they did reflect on this and did what they believed was the courageous and moral decision. look how many people are talking about it. (not that that’s a true measure of its effectiveness).
now, yer judging these anarchists for their direct action. judge not lest ye shall be judged. should we judge yer actions now?

echar

Go ahead and judge me. I don’t care. I don’t have an ideology to hide behind/rationalize my actions. I’d rather they stole the calendars to resell. Although that would be just as stupid as stealing them for some smarmy ideological reason that gets lost in the shuffle.

jnana

im not going to judge you, especially since I don’t know you(obviously)
but before you judge someone else, have you considered what yer doing to combat oppression?

echar

Yes, daily. I do what I can. Part of it is discouraging people from doing stupid things like the people did in this article. It’s not the answer, it’s part of the problem.

Harming others and causing loss is the opposite of creating a win-win situation.

echar

Disqus is glitchy lately. It’s annoying me.

*pushes over trash can

Richard Frith

My boner will not be silenced!

Matt Staggs

Misogynist? Vaguely related story time. OK, not at all related: I worked at a record store in a mall in college, and among our many customers was a very closeted young gay high school kid whose mother was a very repressive, angry Christian woman. He’d buy a CD (Toni Braxton), and she’d take it back and rail about it being Satanic this and Satanic that. All the time with the Satanic. Anyway, when he could get away from her and come to the mall himself, he’d proposition any and all male employees at the mall to come to his car for a special massage. He’d get thrown out by security and come do it again. He had this line about being in a massage program and wanted to “practice” in his car. Kind of sad, really, but also super creepy and disruptive for the staff. Long story short, a woman I worked with nicknamed him “The Massage-inist”, and any time I hear the word I think about that kid. I always wonder what happened to him. Sometimes I feel sorry for him, and then other times believe that he was probably a serial killer in the making. Hope he finally got that Toni Braxton CD.

Mike Zero

More Christian jackassery for the masses. Typical, though. Thou shalt not steal, you weak little f tards. Moses is turning in his grave right now.

Bartholomew

I don’t approve of the stealing. I have friends who are part of JesusRadicals.com, and the calendar thieves don’t at all speak for the broader Christian Anarchist community. But I would also like to add that most Christian Anarchists are exactly opposite of the typical Chik-fil-a-Christian stereotype that this article implies. Most Christian Anarchists I know are full supporters of, and are well versed in, queer theory, third-wave feminism, socialist economic theory, intersectionality, and social reform movements. If I had to venture a guess, I would say that the calendars were stolen because they provide a heterocentric and oppressive objectification of women, NOT because Christian Anarchists believe naked bodies to be sinful. In fact, there are many Christian Anarchists who are also nudists, LGBT, polyamorous, or otherwise sex-positive. Please take time to learn about all sides of an issue before jumping to conclusions and harmful stereotypes.