Topic 'Re: [Northeast] High pings / bad routing...' in forum 'Verizon FiOS' - dslreports.comhttp://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-27949925
enTue, 03 Mar 2015 15:39:57 EDTTue, 03 Mar 2015 15:39:57 EDTRe: [Northeast] High pings / bad routing...http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28036169
Great post. Hopefully some people will actually read it and understand what those of us 'in the know' have understood for years....

ICMP is lowest priority, and a standard outbound trace route can never tell the entire story.]]>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28036169Fri, 22 Feb 2013 09:45:33 EDTRe: [Northeast] High pings / bad routing...http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28035208
said by serge87:

@Xtreme2 and serith: I also live outside of Syracuse and am having terrible timing out problems the last week or two. I'd say 1 out of 5 requests to almost any website time out :(

My trace routes to Google, Craigslist and Reddit(notice the timeouts in hops 3-6):

Long post.... and on page 8 it's late in the game, but I really want to stop and shed some light on traceroutes and how they can be misinterpreted.

Timeouts at intermediate hops mean... pay attention... NOTHING. ICMP is low priority and there are many reasons a router might ignore ICMP if it's busy doing something more meaningful, like crunching BGP table updates. Same goes for high latency at INTERMEDIATE hops.

What matters is DESTINATION results. Is there packet loss to the destination? And is there abnormally high latency? Those are the questions that matter.

Something you cannot see, unless you control both endpoints, is REVERSE PATH. If you ride inbound on Verizon to a particular destination, there is no guarantee the return path will be symmetric-- i.e, that the response will come back to you on the same route. Quite often traffic will take another physical path-- or other carriers altogether.

Why? Traffic engineering at the other end. For example, datacenters often use route selection tools that route based on lowest economic cost, not necessarily lowest latency or best path. Many will balance traffic loads across their circuits. If they see too much traffic outbound on their (for example) Level3 transit, they may shift some of it to (example) Cogent or Telia or whatever carriers they have. OR-- they could route based on lowest cost, meaning they'll send the bulk of their OUTBOUND traffic via (for example) Cogent, while still announcing their prefixes (for inbound traffic) through their premium carriers. So never... NEVER, NEVER... assume to know the reverse path unless you can do a traceroute from the host at the other end.

Now, let's discuss the screenshot you posted. You're near Syracuse so we'll consider that in determining expected latency.

Your trace to google-- best guess on where that server is, is NYC. This one is tough to judge because there are so many possibilities for physical path (the actual fiber route), reverse path, etc. At mid-40 ms latency at hops 4-10, if nothing else it's consistent. Given your physical geography, I would not be entirely surprised if upstate NY Verizon fiber faced Boston (Syracuse -> BOS -> NYC) but without a fiber map it's anybody's guess.

Your trace to craigslit-- note that the servers are in Palo Alto. Assuming your physical path is similar to the google trace, meaning in the vicinity of 45 ms to hit NYC, then onto long-haul fiber across country, latency in the 120 ms range is not unreasonable.

Your trace to reddit-- destination server is in the Washington, D.C., area. Given 45 ms from you to NYC, another 10 ms from NYC->DC is not out of line.

Long post, yes. But so many people mis-interpret traceroutes and/or put too much emphasis on them, I felt it appropriate to pass it through a sanity filter.]]>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28035208Thu, 21 Feb 2013 21:52:44 EDTRe: [Northeast] High pings / bad routing...http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28035058
Gaming is a hobby I do in my free time and is not my life. I live a very stressful life and gaming is my release at the end of the day. --My Website: »www.xtemu.comMy Speedtest: »www.speedtest.net/result/1218984 ··· 4197.png]]>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28035058Thu, 21 Feb 2013 20:54:47 EDTRe: [Northeast] High pings / bad routing...http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28034295
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28034295Thu, 21 Feb 2013 17:19:58 EDTRe: [Northeast] High pings / bad routing...http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28031740
I am just asking that you do some research, understand it, and adjust if needed. I provided you a starting point a few comments back and you have not posted anything back since regarding your issue. Do your research, provide your facts, and we maybe able to help you out.]]>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28031740Thu, 21 Feb 2013 07:16:08 EDTRe: [Northeast] High pings / bad routing...http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28030427
I would contact Verizon if I didn't feel it was such a waste and would actually lead to a solution. Plus it's hard for me to get on the phone since I have symptoms of autism which makes it hard for me to verbalize, have productive conversations and socialize in general. The prime reason why I never ever use voice chat in game. If contacting Verizon online was sufficient enough I'd go that route since I have no issues expressing anything in text form.--My Website: »www.xtemu.comMy Speedtest: »www.speedtest.net/result/1218984 ··· 4197.png]]>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28030427Wed, 20 Feb 2013 18:25:42 EDTRe: [Northeast] High pings / bad routing...http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28028915
A few people might be right, including myself when we said that out own PON card or something in the CO has going bad or has become oversubscribed.

I say the above not only because of pings and tracerts, but because I couldn't download a few times in the last two months over 10Mbit/sec, VOD was not perfect, VOD menu's took 5 seconds or more to respond, Verizon said they couldn't figure it out and that there was loss at the OLT..... Downloading made my pings to my first hop and on go from 25 to 300 with packet loss during those few nights. Mind you it wasn't for hours on end, just in spurts. Still ruins everything. Some people like myself have users playing games, parents watching VOD and myself trying to dropbox/remote desktop and share files with the fiance. Everything experiences lag/cut outs and just plain annoyances. But once again, my specific example is rare. That is why I started MRTG graphing to a few hops plus outside peers to graph when things happen.

Edit:Come to think of it, I haven't checked my graphs in a while. Busy with work/family. But looking at my charts towards 4 different FiOS connections, they all have the same spikes around the same time every single night. My first hop graph looks normal, my second hop ping chart is showing the same spikes.]]>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28028915Wed, 20 Feb 2013 11:24:42 EDTRe: [Northeast] High pings / bad routing...http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28028390
said by serge87:

So now it IS Verizon's fault(due in part to the "Quantum" tiers)? I thought it was 100% the cheap peering partners that weren't meeting their end of the peering agreement in every single case?

All these complaints about horrible latency and packet loss didn't exist on this forum 90 days ago

Verizon unleashed potentially 2-4X more bandwidth demand by their 4 million or so FIOS customers, the content sources can't handle the demand at peak times, yes its IS the content source or their ISP and up chain that's the limit, nothing in the FIOS network

You also have things like Netflix, its reported that by the end of the year video streaming ( primarily Nextflix and YouTube ) will by over 50% of the peak traffic, every one comes home and starts watching some sort of video content, this has been increasing at a rate that WILL break the internet as we know it

We have passed a tipping point, its not Verizon in anyway, their network is the single largest network in the US by capacity, the internet and the peering arrangements are not keeping up with demand, which is primarily caused by NetFlix, YouTube and Skype, which has supplanted about 20% of the voice minutes ( measured in billions )

The Internet model was everyone shared in the cost, now you have a few content sources that are disproportionally only pushing bits, its isn't going to work forever and your seeing first hand a global issue that peering is failing as the economic model to keep the internet functional.

Its been is discussion for a decade by people that know about how all this works, the consensus is we are going to have to start having a QOS model, where voice / gaming and other applications get low-latency access and video, which can be buffered and is only one way get the left-over bits

Verizon network is NOT the issue, I have no issues, even at peak times, but I'm not using consumer NetFlix/Gaming/Youtube, which are over-subscribed at the source, not the destination

Oh an there are maybe 5 people moaning about this, out of a couple thousand BBR members that have FIOS]]>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28028390Wed, 20 Feb 2013 08:34:08 EDTRe: [Northeast] High pings / bad routing...http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28027326
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28027326Tue, 19 Feb 2013 20:42:44 EDTRe: [Northeast] High pings / bad routing...http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28027210
said by guppy_fish:

Less traffic on Comcast -to- Google peering, mostly due to much lower average last mile connections speeds

Verizon users, now with the slowest tier of 50mbs can suck the Google peering point dry ...

So now it IS Verizon's fault(due in part to the "Quantum" tiers)? I thought it was 100% the cheap peering partners that weren't meeting their end of the peering agreement in every single case?

All these complaints about horrible latency and packet loss didn't exist on this forum 90 days ago(roughly Nov-Dec 2012)! If the new mantra is that the 'Internet is growing and we must accept it' I'd like to know how could it have changed so drastically in a matter of weeks? :scratches head: It's like someone flipped a switch and here we are a few months later...]]>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28027210Tue, 19 Feb 2013 20:08:25 EDTRe: [Northeast] High pings / bad routing...http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28027022

Interesting +100ms spike that never left one random day last week. Not sure what is going on.]]>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28025963Tue, 19 Feb 2013 15:05:36 EDTRe: [Northeast] High pings / bad routing...http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28026029
said by Mahalo:

Hulk Smash!!!!While guppy_fish may be dealing with some anger issues right now

No anger here :) , I'll just keep posting facts, maybe one day someone will listen ;)]]>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28026029Tue, 19 Feb 2013 14:58:32 EDTRe: [Northeast] High pings / bad routing...http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28026023
Verizon users, now with the slowest tier of 50mbs can suck the Google peering point dry ... ]]>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28026023Tue, 19 Feb 2013 14:57:12 EDTRe: [Northeast] High pings / bad routing...http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28026016
While guppy_fish may be dealing with some anger issues right now, I do agree with some of his statements.

Xtreme2damax, you were complaining about TW a while back on the same issue. What are you expecting? ]]>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28026016Tue, 19 Feb 2013 14:56:07 EDTRe: [Northeast] High pings / bad routing...http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28026004
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28026004Tue, 19 Feb 2013 14:52:37 EDTRe: [Northeast] High pings / bad routing...http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28025958
said by jk111:

I don't know how you can say it's not a Verizon issue. Earlier traceroutes I've posted show timeouts at verizon peering points, as well as alter peering points, and alter (MCI) is owned by Verizon now. This is a Verizon issue.

I've tried to explain you can't use ping for diagnostics, no one listens I've tried to explain peering, people don't get it

Verizon isn't the issue, its the paths outside of the network which continually show up at the peering points, meaning your going from Verizons network, which is vastly larger in capacity to any other network ( in capacity ) in the US, to smaller networks, that can't handle the traffic

YouTube/Google is all messed up with the volume of traffic they don't have the peering to support the requests, HD support only makes things worse

Gaming sites are low budget and are constantly getting hosed by over subscription

The bottom line is, the internet has now matches our highway system for performance, when everyone get on it, there are area's that get traffic jams

There are intermittent times within Verizon do have slowdowns, usually a failed router or router table opps maybe a fiber line got cut, but almost all the time it's out Verizon's network.

The issue isn't Verizon, its the expectation that you can get low latency connections to anywhere, anytime .. that is gone forever, well until they implement for pay QOS, so your "important" traffic get priority for a hefty fee .. coming to a bill near you sometime this decade.

If you still believe I'm wrong, I encourage you to switch to you favorite alternative internet provider .. you then will realize its a much bigger issue then Verizon]]>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28025958Tue, 19 Feb 2013 14:40:36 EDTRe: [Northeast] High pings / bad routing...http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28025875
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28025875Tue, 19 Feb 2013 14:18:47 EDTRe: [Northeast] High pings / bad routing...http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-28025846
peering@tinet.net.--

What the hell?]]>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-27993657Fri, 08 Feb 2013 21:46:35 EDTRe: [Northeast] High pings / bad routing...http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-27993648
I'm still waiting to hear what's going on. It seems like no one I've asked has a clue as to why or what is doing this.]]>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-27993648Fri, 08 Feb 2013 21:43:47 EDTRe: [Northeast] High pings / bad routing...http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-27993239

How much worse can it get?

]]>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-27993239Fri, 08 Feb 2013 19:10:24 EDTRe: [Northeast] High pings / bad routing...http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-27993214
Its not just inside Verizon's network, its also their routers connecting to other locations. Especially Alter.net which is their main provider for serving their network.

The trace route is to a friend just across the Hudson. Double the normal ping, speeds also nothing between us. So what is the excuse here??????????

I'm not sure what good the direct sections are if they won't respond to such issues. I just don't fancy being kept on the phone for over an hour, run through the motions, a tech to come out only for them to realize it's not an issue on my end and deny any sort of responsibility with their network. When I first signed up for Fios I was on the phone for over an hour over something ridiculous, an incompetent representative kept claiming I couldn't sign up for internet service without bundling voice due to some unheard of law (to me) in New York. Never again. --My Website: »www.xtemu.comMy Speedtest: »www.speedtest.net/result/1218984 ··· 4197.png]]>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-27973515Sat, 02 Feb 2013 20:53:25 EDTRe: [Northeast] High pings / bad routing...http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-27973448
But to show something weird. I am seeing horrific ping times to almost everything - but NOT all at the exact same times tonight.

Here is a tracert to myself from a road runner connection, and at the exact same time, a tracert back to the road runner connection. Very weird results:

]]>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-27973448Sat, 02 Feb 2013 20:30:07 EDTRe: [Northeast] High pings / bad routing...http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-27973361
Not spiking as bad as before though. Ping will spike up briefly for a bit and go back down. This still needs to be sorted out though as I should be seeing much lower ping to local servers.]]>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-27973361Sat, 02 Feb 2013 20:02:16 EDTRe: [Northeast] High pings / bad routing...http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-27973334
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Northeast-High-pings-bad-routing-27973334Sat, 02 Feb 2013 19:53:25 EDT