frankvWhat Are You Waiting For?Double Platinum SupporterPremium MemberV.I.P. Member

Frank I really do value your opinion but MAN do you ever need a spoonful of sugar. You say differing opinions are welcome but then you want them to be qualified opinions.

I have a friend who likes Pepsi, I don't understand why. He's been drinking soda his whole life, but even if it was his first time, it is still a valid point for him. I like Coke, and I have tried Pepsi. I didn't like it. I don't need to drink a case of Pepsi to figure it out.

Even unqualified opinions are valid. Instead of meeting them with vitriol, reach out and explain why you feel the way you do. Maybe nobody's opinion will get changed, in fact it probably won't, but give people a chance.

Click to expand...

First off. Take care with that snow storm coming your way. Looks bad.

"Even unqualified opinions are valid"
Are you serious my friend. Answer me the question I posted that everyone ignored..

Here it is again.Would you seek out an opinion from someone that had no experience in what you needed info on?

Or to stay in the same example you posted. If someone never drank Pepsi, do you think their opinion that it sucks is valid and useful?

Mis-information is never good or welcomed in any circles. Why is this place different? Why would I need sugar? Because I hurt feelings telling the truth? If you have something to say with no background in the subject... Say so. This way others reading that opinion won't be mislead because the person happens to write well.

Now tell me J... Do you think there is something wrong with that logic?

I've probably been reported for speaking my mind.
At least there are others who notice the exclusiveness here.

Click to expand...

Nope. Since I know I reported you, I will tell you why. Other than the Thread OP, you didn't post anything of benefit in the thread after that. In fact, the only post you posted in this thread that was NOT egging someone on, or stirring the pot of dissention, was your 2nd inflammatory post, that you never went back and extrapolated, explained, etc. I outline it very concisely above.

Stirring the pot, posting posts that a troll would also post, is not speaking your mind.

Post an opinion, discuss it, debate it, all is fine.

Post posts that do none of that, but are meant to just stir the pot, and it will be reported.

But, a common, unwritten, theme that seems to be coming from some in this thread (and past threads), is that if one states a 'differing opinion' here, that NOONE is allowed to rebut that opinion regardless of civility of the rebuttal, even if the 'differing opinion' is said purely to 'stir the pot'.

I don't understand why it is wrong to attempt to discuss or debate a statement that says "I think modelers are deficient in x", or "Mis-informed trope #3". They are allowed to state said opinion, but NOONE is allowed to respond to it? How is that right?.

If you go back on this thread, with an objective eye, you will see this sequence of events.

3. Now, considering this is a phrase akin to saying Modelers are inferior, the responses are very tame to this. In fact they simply ask for clarification on this opinion.

4. He never really does clarify his 'point', but some of us finally interpret it (and giving the benefit of the doubt to him) that it was a badly worded interpretation of something said in the vid.

5. People, politely point out how the participants in the vid, are focused on stating how people when comparing old tech amps to modelers WHEN using a full FRFR rig, should compare apples to apples, which means comparing a mic'ed amp to the modeler's digital version of that. They also politely point out that that isn't the ONLY way the modeler can be used, and that it can be used as an 'amp in the room', and that the vid participants don't cover that aspect.

6. The OP NEVER responds to the above, not once. He never discusses those posts or points, never ever adds anything else to fortify his statement in #2. He does attack particular posts as 'against him', such as this, and this,

7. A few others who rarely contribute in this sub forum, and when they do almost always in a thread like this, joined in with posts basically saying we are not entitled to have opinions on people's differing opinions. That is with one NOTABLE exception, Joeydego who decided it was time to reiterate his opinion that modelers are inferior to tube amps. Which, was noted by many here, he is entitled to. He also at least debated back and forward said opinions.

NOW, if you go back and objectively look at those sequences, then you would have to have some amount of questions in your mind as to the OP's motives. To summarize, he posts a pejorative trope about modelers, even says he expected comments to refute it, then never posts any further discussion on the main topic, the rebuttals or anything similar, just attacks the sub forum, individual posts as being 'mean' and similar. Hmm, I wonder why that would be thought as possible trolling?

Joeydego posted opinions many of us didn't agree with, and was never called a troll. Why? Because he then discussed his statements, back and forth, gave reasons for his opinions, clarified etc. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Click to expand...

Interesting you should list the posts, as I went and reviewed the early entires as well. It looked to me like someone posted their opinion without stating every fact that went into forming it which is a fairly common thing in internet chat rooms.

That poster was immediately taken to task and followed up with a clarifying post which resulted in what seemed to me as a fairly neutral observer to be a dog pile on someone with a dissenting opinion.

Nothing in this thread struck me as trolling. Much of this thread seems hyper-sensitve over reaction.

I grant the internet and forums in particular are imprecise vehicles for communication but that was how we got where we are as I see it.

Frank I really do value your opinion but MAN do you ever need a spoonful of sugar. You say differing opinions are welcome but then you want them to be qualified opinions.

I have a friend who likes Pepsi, I don't understand why. He's been drinking soda his whole life, but even if it was his first time, it is still a valid point for him. I like Coke, and I have tried Pepsi. I didn't like it. I don't need to drink a case of Pepsi to figure it out.

Even unqualified opinions are valid. Instead of meeting them with vitriol, reach out and explain why you feel the way you do. Maybe nobody's opinion will get changed, in fact it probably won't, but give people a chance.

Click to expand...

"Even unqualified opinions are valid" is slightly an oxymoron. Yes they are valid opinions, as opinions can be based on very little or no empirical data. But, they are not necessarily valid in a factual matter.

Also, when did disagreement become = to vitriol?

Don't mean to put words in Franks mouth, but your analogy with the colas isn't accurate.

Frank would consider unqualified would be your friend liking Pepsi OVER Coke, having never ever tried Coke, OR even worse having never ever trying either.

See the difference?

Additionally, state an opinion. But, often said opinions are presented not as "I believe", or "I prefer", but as "This is the case", i.e. as fact.

Finally, although all are entitled to state their opinion, perfectly okay and expected, others ARE allowed to disagree with that opinion. Additionally, if said opinion is posted such that it is being presented not as opinion or preference, but as a universal fact, then what is wrong with attempting to refute it as a fact?

frankvWhat Are You Waiting For?Double Platinum SupporterPremium MemberV.I.P. Member

I've probably been reported for speaking my mind.
At least there are others who notice the exclusiveness here.

Click to expand...

This topic has nothing what so ever to do with modelers. It has everything to do with mis-information being spewed around like candy at a preschool. It doesn't fly.. Will never fly and will never be condoned. When someone spews opinions with no experience all i will do from now on is post an IGNORE THIS POST reply due to incorrect assumptions.

frankvWhat Are You Waiting For?Double Platinum SupporterPremium MemberV.I.P. Member

I find it incredibly hard to read you guys actually saying that it's OK for someone to have an opinion about something that he knows nothing about. What is that?

We are not talking about an abstract concept that someone might have an opinion.. Something like. In my opinion going to Mars is a waste of money. You don't have to work for Nasa to have that opinion. But when talking about things that are not a conceptual concept.. Like what we are talking about. Well you better have experience before you stick you finger in the car door.

Gibson Les Pauls Suck.. I never played or heard one but I can tell that they suck.

Nope. Since I know I reported you, I will tell you why. Other than the Thread OP, you didn't post anything of benefit in the thread after that. In fact, the only post you posted in this thread that was NOT egging someone on, or stirring the pot of dissention, was your 2nd inflammatory post, that you never went back and extrapolated, explained, etc. I outline it very concisely above.

Stirring the pot, posting posts that a troll would also post, is not speaking your mind.

Post an opinion, discuss it, debate it, all is fine.

Post posts that do none of that, but are meant to just stir the pot, and it will be reported.

Click to expand...

Not surprised at all. I gave an opinion supported by the video. I don't need to argue with or convince you or anyone else for that matter. you turned it into a pizzing match as usual.

frankvWhat Are You Waiting For?Double Platinum SupporterPremium MemberV.I.P. Member

Here is the questionWould you seek out an opinion from someone that had no experience in what you needed info on?

It's OK. I know you can't answer that because it doesn't supprt your side of the argument. Lets drop it. You got the idea I know you did.

Look. I really do like all you guys. WE argue, we fight, we discuss. Never is it personal. Never is it serious. Its Ok to disagree and leave a discussion as the friends we are. We all share a common interest and we are all passionate about it. So with that. I'll offer an olive branch here.

Nothing in this thread struck me as trolling. Much of this thread seems hyper-sensitve over reaction.

Click to expand...

How would you paraphrase the following?
"
Modelers are extremely good at what they do and definitely have a lot to offer. They reproduce the sound of a mic'd guitar amp. They don't, however, produce the same, for a lack of a better term, organic impact of a real amp.
Fire away. "

What is being said? To me, it says "Modelers are good for what they do, but they can only do a Mic'ed amp sound, and aren't as good sounding as a tube amp". Notice the use of the inflammatory term "real amp" to describe NOT a modeler. Also note the Fire away comment" which can only be interpreted as "I expect opposition to what I just said".

Mind you it is a post like a hundred others, with the same items as, troll posts.

K, no what was the response to the above. Yes, there were a couple that saw a post that walked like a troll, looked like a troll, smelled like a troll post, and called it such.

But, wasn't there ALSO multiple posts just asking for clarification?

He sort of gave clarification. But it was pointing to a point in the video, nothing more. This was very vague, open to all manner of misinterpretation. That, btw, is also a troll-like post.

But even then, there were multiple posts that simply tried to educate how modelers can ALSO be used to produce other than mic'ed amp tones. Sorry, if some of us tried to educate him on missing information in his experience.

But please, after those posts, ^^^, point out ONE post by pnuggett that was in any way productive, conversational, that added anything to the discussion. other than #78.

Now, count how many posts by same, after that point attacked this sub forum or it's participants.

In fact, I will say, judging JUST by the posts, it looks an awful lot like

1. I'll post a neutral opening
2. Then I'll post something I KNOW will be taken as inflammatory and use words that are same.
3. I'll then be elusive in clarifying the above, causing more misinterpretation.
4, I'll then only post posts about my agenda for all of this, to show how awful this sub forum is.

I'll say that is what it LOOKS like.

But, if that person wants to actually post ON what they made this thread's main thesis/direction about (other than how bigoted we all are here), i.e. that Modelers are great at making mic'ed amp tone, but not as good as a conventional amp at amp in the room tones WITH A SUBSTANTIVE post, or post a substantive post in regards to any of the number of posts that talked about how Modelers CAN aalso do amp in the room tones, then that would go a LONG way to NOT making it look like trolling.

Please define dog-piling? To me dog-piling is multiple people saying something akin to "your wrong, period" or personal attacks. Please show where that happened?

I DO see where more than one pointed out similar, opposing opinions. I see that in posts 14, 19 and 24.

How would you paraphrase the following?
"
Modelers are extremely good at what they do and definitely have a lot to offer. They reproduce the sound of a mic'd guitar amp. They don't, however, produce the same, for a lack of a better term, organic impact of a real amp.
Fire away. "

What is being said? To me, it says "Modelers are good for what they do, but they can only do a Mic'ed amp sound, and aren't as good sounding as a tube amp". Notice the use of the inflammatory term "real amp" to describe NOT a modeler. Also note the Fire away comment" which can only be interpreted as "I expect opposition to what I just said".

Mind you it is a post like a hundred others, with the same items as, troll posts.

K, no what was the response to the above. Yes, there were a couple that saw a post that walked like a troll, looked like a troll, smelled like a troll post, and called it such.

But, wasn't there ALSO multiple posts just asking for clarification?

He sort of gave clarification. But it was pointing to a point in the video, nothing more. This was very vague, open to all manner of misinterpretation. That, btw, is also a troll-like post.

But even then, there were multiple posts that simply tried to educate how modelers can ALSO be used to produce other than mic'ed amp tones. Sorry, if some of us tried to educate him on missing information in his experience.

But please, after those posts, ^^^, point out ONE post by pnuggett that was in any way productive, conversational, that added anything to the discussion. other than #78.

Now, count how many posts by same, after that point attacked this sub forum or it's participants.

In fact, I will say, judging JUST by the posts, it looks an awful lot like

1. I'll post a neutral opening
2. Then I'll post something I KNOW will be taken as inflammatory and use words that are same.
3. I'll then be elusive in clarifying the above, causing more misinterpretation.
4, I'll then only post posts about my agenda for all of this, to show how awful this sub forum is.

I'll say that is what it LOOKS like.

But, if that person wants to actually post ON what they made this thread's main thesis/direction about (other than how bigoted we all are here), i.e. that Modelers are great at making mic'ed amp tone, but not as good as a conventional amp at amp in the room tones WITH A SUBSTANTIVE post, or post a substantive post in regards to any of the number of posts that talked about how Modelers CAN aalso do amp in the room tones, then that would go a LONG way to NOT making it look like trolling.

But, he also needs to expect counter opinions.

Click to expand...

I expected to get opposing opinions. I didn't and don't have a problem with that. You have a choice to disagree, agree, and state your opinion . So do I.
After numerous angry posts from you I didn't go crying to a moderator. You don't own this forum and I won't be intimidated by you to keep from posting any opinions that don't happen to agree with you.

Not surprised at all. I gave an opinion supported by the video. I don't need to argue with or convince you or anyone else for that matter. you turned it into a pizzing match as usual.

Click to expand...

No you don't have to, true. Yes, it's your right to say something contrary to what most of us experienced with this tech have actual experience with, then refuse to elaborate or explain why you formed that opinion. BUT, then don't be surprised when people find it troll-like, because that IS what trolls do.

I also beg to differ that the video said that Modelers CAN'T do anything but mic'ed amp tone. As pointed out, they never said that in the video, and as also pointed out, they were only focusing on mic'ed amp aspect for that video. Also pointed out was how the tech CAN be used differently and equally successful.

What you call 'pizzing match' is people trying to educate you (and others) on something that is a fallacy in real use and real life.

Simple question, Have you ever tried a Kemper, Helix, Axe FX, Ax8 through a good SS power amp, with no cab/mic emulation into a guitar cab?

Simple, question #2, How do you explain both the Capt and Chappers in that vid, with the Capt being openly biased against non tube amps, unable to tell which they were playing when set up like question 1 (.e to NOT produce a mic'ed amp tone, but an amp in the room tone?

Or did you just want to bash modelers on their inability to do anything but mic'ed amp tones, period (even if it is demonstrably incorrect)

"Even unqualified opinions are valid"
Are you serious my friend. Answer me the question I posted that everyone ignored..

Here it is again.Would you seek out an opinion from someone that had no experience in what you needed info on?

Or to stay in the same example you posted. If someone never drank Pepsi, do you think their opinion that it sucks is valid and useful?

Mis-information is never good or welcomed in any circles. Why is this place different? Why would I need sugar? Because I hurt feelings telling the truth? If you have something to say with no background in the subject... Say so. This way others reading that opinion won't be mislead because the person happens to write well.

Now tell me J... Do you think there is something wrong with that logic?

Click to expand...

I'll try to stay warm, hopefully this is the last of it!

No, I wouldn't seek out someone's opinion that had no experience on what I needed info on. Here is where we differ, though. If someone offered an opinion, and I didn't want to just end the discussion at that point, I'd listen to them and try to see if I could change their mind. "I'll change your mind yet, you old Luddite, have a listen to this"

Modelling is a perfect topic for this, so many blind tests, so much information. "Have a listen to these two Sound Clouds and tell me which one is the modeler" (when they say they can, humor them, "wow you've got a good ear, I couldn't tell the difference, myself").

Telling or insinuating that someone or their opinion doesn't matter is just a recipe for them digging their heels into their argument. Don't give them a chance to plant their feet, sweep them up into your way of thinking with enthusiasm (Frank we know you've got that in spades)!

I don't really read the troll threads and I didn't get a sense that this was one of them. I just saw it escalate and I was like, damn, people are serious.

I expected to get opposing opinions. I didn't and don't have a problem with that. You have a choice to disagree, agree, and state your opinion . So do I.
After numerous angry posts from you I didn't go crying to a moderator. You don't own this forum and I won't be intimidated by you to keep from posting any opinions that don't happen to agree with you.

Click to expand...

First please point to ONE post I made that was angry, and why you think it is.

Your missing a very small, but extremely important point. HAD you continued to state opinion on the topic, discussed it, I never would have reported. I waited until 5 pages. I waited for you to post anything that wasn't of the nature 'see intolerance'. I waited for anything that broke the cycle of - Say something I know will get opposite or negative responses (your own words bear that out), ambiguous non clarification, and "see intolerance, intolerance wah wah'. Unfortunately, you never did. YOu still haven't.

Never did I/we see from you anyting in pages 3,4 or 5 to counter points like,"k, but I see it like this". Just more of the above.

There is also the matter that the Mods have instructed both sides to report when someone seems to ONLY be posting to stir the pot in the great tube vs modeler spectrum. And sorry, but I felt that that was all you did. I thought I was fairly clear as to why I felt that.

Also, Joeydego and a few others also made comments/opinions I disagreed with. I didn't report them. Why? It's because they didn't keep posting like you did (again see above and my last 4 or so posts). They discussed their opinions, explained their stance and where it came from. There is a difference. This is how people earn respect for their opinion even from people that disagree with it. I for one HIGHLY respect Joey's opinion and simultaneously completely disagree with it, on this topic.

Not trying to drive you from this forum. On the contrary. But, I for one (and I suspect others) are trying to teach you the right, and the wrong way to discuss a conflicting or contrary opinion.

You can either accept that as it is meant, or be constantly combative and defensive. It is your choice.

No, I wouldn't seek out someone's opinion that had no experience on what I needed info on. Here is where we differ, though. If someone offered an opinion, and I didn't want to just end the discussion at that point, I'd listen to them and try to see if I could change their mind. "I'll change your mind yet, you old Luddite, have a listen to this"

Click to expand...

And, I know for a fact, in this thread that was attempted multiple times, in several ways, to only be met with, and to be called "being intolerant of differing opinions"

Telling or insinuating that someone or their opinion doesn't matter is just a recipe for them digging their heels into their argument. Don't give them a chance to plant their feet, sweep them up into your way of thinking with enthusiasm (Frank we know you've got that in spades)

Click to expand...

I never took Frank ever saying that anyone's opinion didn't matter.

He was saying, as I saw it, that there are a lot of opinions out there based on little real experience, and that people should try to seek out opnions that ARE based on more than a feeling (boston 197..)

Additionally, on the particular subject of Modelers, we all too often see those little/no experience based opinions propagated as gospel. Can you deny that? I see nothing wrong with getting clarification on the experience behind someone's belief/opinion. BECAUSE, like you said, if I find it is based on little or nothing, then I will try to convince them otherwise with empirical data and examples. BUT, if it is formed after decent experience,, there is no point trying. ,

Here is the questionWould you seek out an opinion from someone that had no experience in what you needed info on?

Click to expand...

Not purposely. When seeking an opinion, I want somebody with experience. When I am offered an opinion on something - anything - I will always give more weight to the opinion that comes from hands on experience.