I can't tell you how many whales are left in the oceans, but I know it's far fewer than when Melville was writing. And of the aikido people who started because they wanted power...I can only guess.

Guessing is not the same as proving.

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Well, what's beautiful about aikido? As Melville says in the quote in my original post, "...those
motions derive their most appalling beauty from (strength). Real strength never impairs beauty or harmony, but it often bestows it; and in everything imposingly beautiful, strength has much to do with the magic." So I submit that the "beauty" that attracted you to aikido, the most important element was the power of the beauty--the strength expressed and bestowing the beauty and harmony of the movements.

I do not have any problem with Melville's description here. But I do object against the suggestion that beauty is the same as strength. Each expresses an other quality. Besides that - it is an invalid way of reasoning; pulling is not pushing, a horse is not a cow, taking a bath is not swimming.

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Exactly. Who undertakes such a hard practice to become weaker? Who goes to a job to end up with less money? Who puts gas in the tank of their car only to find that it went to someone else's car instead? We train for a benefit. They say "That which doesn't kill us makes us stronger." But that which takes our time and money and doesn't make us stronger...well, it makes us weaker. Who would pay for that? And why wear a black belt because we got progressively weaker over several years of practice?

Your bringing it back to your basic premise,"people are drawn to Aikido because they want power". But none of these examples prove your point.

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Well...who is objecting to my claim here? Read the posts on IP/Aiki. Who protests that there is something wrong with trying to gain power?

There is no need to object to your claim. The burden of proof lies with you! And so far you have not succeeded !

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There is a serious vein of this running through what Chris likes to calln " the aikido community," which seems to be a body that can vote on what aikido should be, as AmericaChristians have decided to make Jesus' teachings about the rich man entering Heaven actually mean "greed is good." I haven't named names just to be polite, but this is a response to (and a sort of a bait for) those who insist that we should not be trying to gain "power" from aikido training. They're the same ones who are confused about whether we should intend for an aikido technique to throw the uke. They are largely persuaded that it should happen almost accidentally. They post all over this forum...

There is no need to name names and I can imagine why you see this as being impolite - but if you say something like "everyone is drawn to Aikido because of power and is in denial about it" than you have to prove this by mentioning examples of people that this apply to, for instance name organisations, groups or dojo.

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" the aikido community," which seems to be a body that can vote on what aikido should be, as AmericaChristians have decided to make Jesus' teachings about the rich man entering Heaven actually mean "greed is good." I haven't named names just to be polite, but this is a response to (and a sort of a bait for) those who insist that we should not be trying to gain "power" from aikido training.

On the one hand you do not want name names as you see this as impolite, on the other hand you have no problem with an insulting remark like this? And by no means is it any clearer who you are addressing here. For instance does the "Aikido community" include me? Or any of the other posters on this thread? Or do you let everyone decide for themselves? That would make it a "neat" way of insulting people.