Jingo was my first "favourite" discworld book. I'd already read some when I started Jingo and liked them all very much (except "Equal Rites" - but that might be because I read it in German), but with Jingo I felt there was something special.
It probably was the fact that this book not only was funny, but also was the first I read that went deeper, that was not only funny/ a good read but also reflected on human nature and its nastier sides, in this case xenophobia, racism and jingoism.

Now I haven't read Jingo for some time, but from what is posted here I think I can offer a hypothesis on the Leshp/Leonardo problem.

We (seem to) that Leonardo has seen Leshp several years ago and made sketches. No one else still living seems to have seen Leshp in recent years, else they'd know it'd soon vanish again. Some claim that Leonardo must have made his sketches below the surface of the water (however he achieved that), whereas others say this can't be because he must clearly have been under the island, so it must have been afloat.
Depending on this, some say that the submarine was built by Leonardo before he was imprisoned or that it was built just after Leshp reemerged.

So, my hypothesis:
The submarine had been built by Leonardo before his first trip to the then sunken island Leshp. Somehow he heard the legend, perhaps also heard that Leshp has sunken more than once and that made him curious. Since at the moment Leshp wasn't on the surface, Leonardo would need to invent a device that allowed for submarine research. No problem for a mind like his. He then dived in the approximate area where Leshp was supposed to be and found it submerged. He could make his sketches in the relative dryness of his submarine. As for the the issue how he got under the island if it was submerged: Either it was floating several feet above the ground, which is possible in water if there's enough gas to hold it there, or he found a tunnel that brought him into island where he then could see that there is a huge dome which is now mostly water filled but will fill up with gas sooner or later and float the island.

He did not dismantle his boat then because he clearly states that he dismantles his inventions because Vetinari wants it so; but at this time he wasn't a prisoner. After his imprisonment he couldn't do it anymore and probably had his mind on something completely different anyway.

It is also possible that Leonardo WASN'T below Leshp and only deduced that there must be a cavern that periodically filled with gas and made the island float.

Be that as it may, I agree with those who think that Leonardo has seen the submerged Leshp.

I certainly think that the suggestion is that Leonard made sketches of the island while it was still submerged and to do that he'd have had to had some sort of device that allowed him to go underwater. So it was either the submarine that is in Jingo or some sort of earlier version of it. I simply don't buy the idea that he made sketches while it was above the water.

There's no evidence that Leonard had actually gone 'under' the island when he made his sketches. The only cue that he had been there was that one line where he mentions he made some sketches of the place.

That, plus the pre-existence of the going-under-the-water boat kept in storage under a lock that hadn't been tampered with, suggests that Leonard, either by accident or in exploration of legend, used the boat to travel to where the island was supposed to be, found it underwater, and sketched it, presumably from "above."

It is either Leonard or Vetinari who conjectures that that the island is floating, and their trip under it may be the first to ever discover this phenomenon.

What are we to assume happened in the other trouser-leg of time that led to the war going ahead and Ankh Morpork being invaded? The Disorganiser's death-roll is one of the most chilling things in all of Pratchett's works but it got me thinking.

If Vetinari still went to Leshp in the boat, and still hatched the same plan after having realised what they were fighting over was not worth a war why would Vetinari's plan fail in the other timeline? Without Vimes and 71-Hour Ahmet there to 'moderate' would full surrender really not have been accpeted by the Klatchians? And if that's the case Vetinari's plan seems shaky at best because he wouldn't have expected Vimes to have been there. If, in the alternative timeline Vetinari got to the tent and offered surrender and it was refused, it shows the Patrician has failed to read the scenario or the people involved. That's not the Havelock Vetinari we know.

The alternative scenario is that Vetinari didn't reach the tent (or maybe didn't even attempt to), the surrender wasn't offered and the war went ahead. There could be any number of reasons why that might've been the case. But it still raises questions about Vetinari doesn't it?

I suppose the question is, how risky was Vetinari's strategy? The tone of the book and that of Vetinari always seems to be one of confidence, of being three-steps ahead, but was this really the case?

Did he cooly know what he was doing all along - which means he would have known the island would sink, and would have known the surrender would take place sans Vimes' presence (in which case you have to re-evaluate Vimes' role in preventing the war)? Or are we to believe his plan was a wild-goose chase, a last desperate throw of the dice from a man who had been replaced by Rust and who had failed to defend his city?

If it's the former, then Vimes' exploits are diminished and his chase becomes a sideshow because the surrender (or invasion) would've happened anyway, with or without him. If it's the latter, then we have an interesting new picture of the Patrician as a man who can lose control of a situation completely.

don't forget, the meeting in the desert only happened when it did BECAUSE vimes left. remember, Rust left early because of Vimes' little venture.

and the other discussion, is this really a debatable thing, about leonard and leshp? i thought it was pretty clear. Leonard had "the boat" before being imprisoned. he had used it to make sketches on leshp while it was submerged. (and the island only comes up every few hundred or thousand years) he, and/or vetinari figured there must be an UNDER to the island, or else it couldn't have "risen", so went under it to be sure.

In all, Jingo is my least favorite watch book, and one of my least favorite DW books. the death roll is a great and powerful scene though. if i was incharge of a movie based on it, that would be something I'd fight to keep.

"The reason an author needs to know the rules of grammar isn't so he or she never breaks them, but so the author knows how to break them."

The surrender wouldn't have happened. Klatch would have invaded, would have destroyed the Watch, and most likely all of the AM militias, since none of them were in any way prepared for real war. Vetinari would never have been in a position where he would have been able to surrender under the terms he proposed, because, technically, the AM in the "alternative" universe was under Lord Rust's control. The Prince would probably have come with the invading force, found Rust holed up at the Palace, and forced him into a complete surrender that would put AM under Klathcian control.

Vetinari orchestrated Vimes' involvement, starting by giving VImes the hint that as a gentry he was entitled to raise his own militia. Without this spurring, Vimes would never have started the chain of events that led to the "good" resolution. Vetinari also knew that if Vimes went to Klatch Lord Rust would follow. This would remove the AM army from AM itself, allowing the battle to take place on Klatchian soil, which would have saved AM's civilian population from a violent invasion. Vetinari's ultimate goal is to preserve AM, even a captured AM, even if some fools (like Rust) needed to sacrificed in the process.

One must assume that there was a pivotal "Trousers of Time" point at which the Prince chose to invade AM or not invade AM. This moment hinged on whether Rust's force remained in AM or invaded Klatch. As the narrative tells us, the Prince knew the moment Rust's boat was nearing the shore. (He wasn't even aware that Vimes was there, or at least didn't care.) Knowing that Rust was there made him decide NOT to send the invasion fleet and instead confront Rust's army on home territory. So, essentially, Vimes' 'good' Trousers of Time moment set up a chain of events that ultimately saved AM from invasion--and saved the Watch from destruction.

I don't think Lord Rust would have stayed, it has been said repeatedly that he may be an idiot, but he isn't a coward, but he certainly wouldn't have left when he did. Most likely the Klatchian fleet would have showed up while they were still getting prepared to leave. The AM army invading the Klatchian desert also gave Rust a bit more control of the situation, which is how that meeting was able to take place. the convivial tea and biscuit before the war. Since the prince was unfamiliar with the concept (and was disgusted by it even when he found out) he wouldn't have pussyfooted around once they reached AM. He would have attacked directly and without warning. and as you said, the people of AM would have been wholly unprepared for it.

"The reason an author needs to know the rules of grammar isn't so he or she never breaks them, but so the author knows how to break them."

Although i'm still a relative newbee to Sir Terry's books I really enjoyed JINGO, I thought it was very funny in places and it all turned out right in the end, I thought the Watch members were very funny.It was as always very well written.

This book has depth, it has fun, it indeed is well written. All in all I should really like it.But somehow it seems to lack something to do it in my top DW books. The pity is I don't really can put my finger on it.

Perhaps, again (as in previous books in which he has the same attitudes) it is Carrot.In this book I think he is annoying. He comes, he smiles, he lets everybody else play football. Yes, I know, this should emphasize his "kingly" qualities and perhaps I just can't stand the case that somebody just have to come to smile and bounce a ball and really everybody immediately is under his spell...It's like reading about superman - without his allergy to cryptonite.

(I recognize the references for example to the christmas football game in WWI, but here it isn't a simply reference, it is a major plot point and together with his Superking powers it becomes slightly annoying.)

Your previous discussion has shown some interesting points and also some which didn't occure to me until now.

For example why Vetinari should let Leonard leave at town (to find Colon and Nobby).It didn't occure to me that this may be a small incongruency but on thinking on it, yes, I would agree.Of course, it can be explained with reasons based on the book and on the characters as here already have been done.Nevertheless I think, Terry at his point wanted to show Leonard's inabilities in "Real Life" and at the same time some good jokes and therefore accepts a possible (but explainable) flaw of congruency.

The journey of the four vetinari submariners I then enjoyed, especially the part of Nobby, hier cheap fortune-telling and the outcome at coffee-klatch (is there really a word in english which is similar to our german "klatsch", meaning "talk, gossip"? Wow, I always knew we are big in irrelevant talking. )

The really good bit though was the dis-organizer's death bill. Yes, by reading it I felt really really chilly, character after character getting killed...

One big question in this discussion has been: When has Leonard been on Leshp and where has he been there?

Um, I always though it rather obvious that he has been on the ground of circled sea at a time while Leshp already or still or again has been under water.Why else should Vetinary hurry back through his system of booby traps?To view some nice sketches of Leshp's picturesque panorama scenery?No, he realized that Leonard was there (under water, although I don't can remember if Leonard at this time knows that Leshp had rised again), and this means he has must have some invention to go there. And so would Vetinary himself be able to go there, undiscovered, and further to Klatch.Because Vetinary and Leonard are pressing Colon and Nobby to do the pedalling part it doesn't have to mean the submarine couldn't be driven by a single person, it just means that you will travel at faster speed- the submarine is easier to handle.Or maybe you need more than one person, but hey, what about trainees/apprentices (as long as they can stand with a master like Leonard)?And then... in AM you can get everything for money, certainly some guys with strong feets and hollow heads to drive your way and forget everything afterwards (although I consider it rather unlikely for Leonard even to buy an apple at market stall).

By the way, I also always though that it has been a well-known fact, that Leshp once has sunk into sea, perhaps even more than once. And I think I also remember that it is mentioned somewhere in the book that AM as well als Klatch have old claims to Lehsp, one time it at whole belonged to Klatch, one time it belonged zu AM (besides, it is mentioned in earlier books, but I don't exactly know if only from the omnipotent narrator to the reader).Vetinary simply seems to be the only one who thinks "an island vanished before can vanish again" and therefore, before everything else, he travels to Leshp to literally get to the bottom of things.

RolandItwasntmyfault wrote:This book has depth, it has fun, it indeed is well written. All in all I should really like it.But somehow it seems to lack something to do it in my top DW books. The pity is I don't really can put my finger on it.

Perhaps, again (as in previous books in which he has the same attitudes) it is Carrot.In this book I think he is annoying. He comes, he smiles, he lets everybody else play football. Yes, I know, this should emphasize his "kingly" qualities and perhaps I just can't stand the case that somebody just have to come to smile and bounce a ball and really everybody immediately is under his spell...It's like reading about superman - without his allergy to cryptonite.

In Jingo, I see Carrot beginning to show off. He now knows how his mystical kingly powers work on most people. He's still obeying orders from Vimes (which impresses the D'regs), but he is taking over a bit, here and there. We're getting glimpses of what (in the old afp group) some people used to call Evil Carrot. I believe there are allusions to Lawrence of Arabia, another story about a foreigner working within a desert culture.

RolandItwasntmyfault wrote:This book has depth, it has fun, it indeed is well written. All in all I should really like it.But somehow it seems to lack something to do it in my top DW books. The pity is I don't really can put my finger on it.

Perhaps, again (as in previous books in which he has the same attitudes) it is Carrot.In this book I think he is annoying. He comes, he smiles, he lets everybody else play football. Yes, I know, this should emphasize his "kingly" qualities and perhaps I just can't stand the case that somebody just have to come to smile and bounce a ball and really everybody immediately is under his spell...It's like reading about superman - without his allergy to cryptonite.

In Jingo, I see Carrot beginning to show off. He now knows how his mystical kingly powers work on most people. He's still obeying orders from Vimes (which impresses the D'regs), but he is taking over a bit, here and there. We're getting glimpses of what (in the old afp group) some people used to call Evil Carrot. I believe there are allusions to Lawrence of Arabia, another story about a foreigner working within a desert culture.

There are absolutely allusions to Lawrence of Arabian, with Carrot's "embracing" of Klatchian culture and his immediate adoption of their wardrobe being a prime example.

I don't call what Carrot does here "showing off," since Carrot's development at this point has not included a strong "inner-self." Carrot's persona changes through the books almost as much as Vimes' does. In Jingo he is as close to "King Carrot" as he will ever be. And, for me at least, the Carrot of Jingo is the least appealing portrayal of the character. Pterry seemed to realize that making Carrot too perfect would harm the ongoing evolution (and ascendancy) of Vimes, which is why, starting with The Fifth Elephant, he began to dismantle the "superman Carrot" persona, giving him character flaws and diminishing his importance to the point where in the more recent books he's barely a presence at all.

=Tamar wrote:In Jingo, I see Carrot beginning to show off. He now knows how his mystical kingly powers work on most people. He's still obeying orders from Vimes (which impresses the D'regs), but he is taking over a bit, here and there. We're getting glimpses of what (in the old afp group) some people used to call Evil Carrot. I believe there are allusions to Lawrence of Arabia, another story about a foreigner working within a desert culture.

There are absolutely allusions to Lawrence of Arabian, with Carrot's "embracing" of Klatchian culture and his immediate adoption of their wardrobe being a prime example.

I don't call what Carrot does here "showing off," since Carrot's development at this point has not included a strong "inner-self."

We never see Carrot's inner self. We only ever see him from outside. Vimes (and to some extent even Angua) sees that much of what Carrot says can be interpreted two ways. Carrot is very subtle at times, and the secondary way of interpreting what he says is usually sarcastic.

raisindot wrote:Carrot's persona changes through the books almost as much as Vimes' does. In Jingo he is as close to "King Carrot" as he will ever be. And, for me at least, the Carrot of Jingo is the least appealing portrayal of the character. Pterry seemed to realize that making Carrot too perfect would harm the ongoing evolution (and ascendancy) of Vimes, which is why, starting with The Fifth Elephant, he began to dismantle the "superman Carrot" persona, giving him character flaws and diminishing his importance to the point where in the more recent books he's barely a presence at all.

We first see Carrot at age 15. He is fairly innocent at that point. By the second novel he has begun to develop his ability to use sarcasm and double meanings while remaining technically truthful. He has become manipulative. In each book he becomes more manipulative. In Jingo Carrot works out how to deal with the D'Regs in a very short time. I think I recall Vimes trying to resist some of Carrot's advice. I agree that Pterry has begun to dismantle Carrot's false appearance of perfection, but he started long before The Fifth Elephant.

Well, I just wanted to say that I'm recently rereading all the watch seriesbooks and am enjoying them a lot more than the first time. Actually I’m finishingJingoand I have to say it’s extremely greater than I remembered! Wow, just the first pages are explosive with (what you have already said) a strong and hard criticism to this dark side of humanity which is war.

‘Why are our people going out there?’ said Mr. Boggis of the Thieves’ Guild.‘Because they are showing brisk pioneering spirit and seeking wealth and... additional wealth in a new land,’ said Lord Vetinari.‘What’s in it for the Klatchians?’ said Lord Downey.‘Oh, they’ve gone out there because they are a bunch of unprincipled opportunists always ready to grab something for nothing,’ said Lord Vetinari.‘A master summation, if I may say so, my lord,’ said Mr. Burleigh, who felt he had some ground to make up.The Patrician looked down again at his notes.‘Oh, I do beg your pardon,’ he said, ‘I seem to have read those last two sentences in the wrong order...’

Regarding the debate about Carrot, I’ll just say that Pratchett always knows how to create diamond characters: full of surprising, strong, solid and well-built facets that together form a dazzling masterpiece capable to astonish us regardless their too dark or bright personalities, despite the fact that in the end we can always see that all of them have the best of both worlds.

I finally finished rereading “Jingo” and I have to say I liked it a lot more than the first time!

As I said before, the criticism is fantastic, but once more characters development is great! As in every DW series, Pratchett excels himself book by book, becoming totally impossible not to fall in love with its characters.

Re-reading (or "relistening," really) to this and it gets better every time.

One part that still confuses me is the presence of the Octarine while Vimes and Co. are sailing to Klatch. The storm itself is Octarine, but it almost seems to be "intelligent" Octarine. At one point Octarine "hands" seem to grab the wheel, and guide the ship through the storm to safety.

I've always wondered where this came from--it suggests a god of some sort guiding them to safety. There really isn't any evidence beforehand that wizards and any other "magical" beings are on Vimes' side, so one wonders what the motivation was for this "magical assistance" other than the idea that Vimes' own determination set magical forces in motion. Another thought is that all the stuff they threw overboard to lighten the ship might have been an illusion to myths where people at sea throw virgins overboard to appease the sea gods. Maybe the sea gods are paying back the "gifts" of hundreds of crossbows, a lifeboat, an anchor and chains?