I went back to my notes and what Bob has experienced thus far is consistent with what I found in my tests. However, the degree of rise will depend on the finished dough temperature, the refrigerator temperature and its stability, and the number of dough balls being cooled at the same time. I believe also that Bob is using a somewhat greater hydration value than you are using, but he can correct me if I am wrong on that. But, with all this said, the dough balls shouldn't become billowy. As noted in the excerpt below from Reply 566 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715.html#msg245715, eventually the dough will soften a bit, and it may even recede a bit, but almost imperceptibly so, and it should not collapse at the two-day point in the fermentation cycle, and it may not even after three days. I believe Bob plans to use one of the dough balls beyond two days, so there may be some degradation of the dough and further softening of the gluten structure but the dough should still be usable. I believe the key thing to look for after three days is the effect of the longer fermentation on the final structure of the crumb and crust of the pizza.

Here is the excerpt from Reply 566:

Because of the high yeast content, one can expect the dough to rise even in the refrigerator as it is being cooled. But the dough balls wonít be blowing off the lids or becoming like balloons. The dough will be well behaved and well mannered. In terms of the expansion that might be expected, the dough balls might increase in volume modestly within several hours (I use poppy seeds to monitor this activity) and then stabilize. After about a day of cold fermentation, the dough ball might have about doubled in volume, but it could be more or less depending on the temperatures involved and their stability during the period of fermentation. The timing may be also delayed if there were several dough balls being cooled at the same time. It should also be pointed out that the late addition of the IDY in the dough making process, as HRI does in its frozen pizza operations, can materially delay the fermentation process. But, throughout the fermentation process, the dough balls should be firm to the touch and remain so for pretty much the entire cold fermentation period but softening slightly toward the end of fermentation. I would perhaps shoot for two days of cold fermentation, to prevent the dough from fermenting too much, but one might try for three days to see if that is an improvement or not. It is also quite likely that one will see white spots all over the dough balls shortly after being refrigerated and as the fermentation proceeds but these spots can diminish with time. This is quite normal.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for going back to your notes and posting what Bob has experienced thus far is consistent with what you found in your tests. I can understand that the degree of rise will depend on the finished dough temperature, the refrigerator temperature and its stability, and the number of dough balls being cooled at the same time.

Normally, when I work on projects like this one independently, I prefer not to post until I have achieved the desired results. In this case, there are a lot of variables involved, including the mixing sequence and the mixers used to make the dough, the mode of fermentation (ambient temperature fermentation versus cold fermentation), and the way that the skin is formed and its temperature in preparation to pre-baking/par-baking, etc. Working through these variables can take weeks of experimentation. Maybe we will get lucky this time and Bob and/or Norma will hit paydirt and spare us all from having to conduct a lot more experimenttion and testing. But, even if they don't hit paydirt, we may learn something more from their efforts.

With respect to the sequencing of oil into the dough, before or after the water, I have tried both ways, using my food processor and my KitchenAid stand mixer. Thus far, I have found that adding the oil before or after the water using my food processor produces comparable results. However, when I tried adding the oil to the flour and before the water using my stand mixer, the dough seemed to ferment much faster. In my case, I used all three attachments--the whisk attachment, the flat beater attachment and the C hook--so maybe that was responsible for the faster fermentation even though the finished dough temperature was where I wanted it. However, I haven't tried to repeat that method to see if I get the same results next time.

It may well turn out that the dough preparation method is not responsible for producing the flaky characteristics of the finished crust. That is why it can take so much time to find the answers.

450 straight on the stone?The little piece I tore off and window paned has warmed up now and (to me) is looking more like a HRI dough.My gut tells me cutter pan but I want to follow along here with the method you are envisioning for a final HRI clone. If you have already discussed what you feel will be final bake procedure could you please give a link. Thanks!

450 straight on the stone?The little piece I tore off and window paned has warmed up now and (to me) is looking more like a HRI dough.My gut tells me cutter pan but I want to follow along here with the method you are envisioning for a final HRI clone. If you have already discussed what you feel will be final bake procedure could you please give a link. Thanks!

Bob,

Since HRI originally baked the pizzas directly on the stone surface of a deck oven, that method has always been an option. However, I am not absolutely convinced that the current HRI dough formulation is exactly the same one that was used with the old HRI deck ovens. Also, we don't currently have an HRI deck oven benchmark pizza against which to compare your results should you decide to bake your pizza on a stone. We only have a frozen HRI pizza benchmark and a benchmark for HRI pizzas made in their pizzerias. Maybe a stone baked version can be attempted once we see if we are on the right trail.

In Reply 566 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715.html#msg245715, I suggested a method to use to make the HRI clone skin and to complete the pizza. That method assumed that the dough would be warmed up before forming into a skin. However, after more research and re-reading the articles I had uncovered on how HRI had made its pizzas in its pizzerias, I came to suspect that HRI did not warm up its dough before forming the skins, but rather let the skins themselves warm up while on their carriers for about 15-20 minutes. This was after the skins had come out of the dough presses and were docked and placed on the carriers. It was because of the possibility that HRI was putting cold or cool dough balls into its hot dough presses that I suspected that the HRI dough could sustain a higher hydration value (the one you are testing) than what I earlier proposed in Reply 566. I discussed this deviation from plan at Reply 578 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg246267.html#msg246267.

When I am confronted with dilemmas like this, my usual practice is to use common sense and rely on my instincts. For example, I know that it is possible to form a skin with a cold, or cool, HRI clone dough. If it resists rolling, I would let it warm it up a bit, and then try to finish rolling it. If, on the other hand, the dough seems overly soft or a bit too sticky and is clearly extensible or likely to become so, then I would dust it with enough bench flour to keep it from sticking and promptly form it into a skin. As mentioned in Reply 556, I would want to work the skin while on a wood peel, dock it there, and then transfer it to the carrier. The rest of the procedure I recommended is in Reply 556.

Thanks, Peter. It was fascinating to read how the sequence of ingredients affected fermentation. My baking knowledge is quite limited to pizza and certain kinds of bread, and it seems like there is some movement towards the pastry side of things throughout these experiments (i.e., in the sense of tweaking variables, trying for different flakiness, etc.).

The reason I suggested adding the IDY late in the process is because that is what the article about HRI at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14 says to do, at page 24. The late addition of the yeast is a trick I learned long ago from a couple of our members to slow down the fermentation rate. It can also be used with ADY. I have even wondered whether HRI may be using dry ADY for better dough management (and also for more flavor), especially for its frozen pizza operations.

In your case, I think the dough should be salvageable. When time comes to use the dough, if it is a bit on the damp or sticky side because of the high fermentation rate, and it looks like the skin will be overly extensible, you might re-ball the dough and try rolling it out again. The dough might require a bit of bench flour and a brief rest, but I think you should still be able to form a skin out of it. I did this with a high yeast (2.5% IDY), room temperature fermented version of an HRI clone dough that had almost tripled in volume over a period of almost four hours, and the finished pizza was very good. That test showed me that it is possible that HRI is using an emergency type dough for its frozen pizza operations, which is why I ran the test in the first place.

The reason I suggested adding the IDY late in the process is because that is what the article about HRI at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14 says to do, at page 24. The late addition of the yeast is a trick I learned long ago from a couple of our members to slow down the fermentation rate. It can also be used with ADY. I have even wondered whether HRI may be using dry ADY for better dough management (and also for more flavor), especially for its frozen pizza operations.

In your case, I think the dough should be salvageable. When time comes to use the dough, if it is a bit on the damp or sticky side because of the high fermentation rate, and it looks like the skin will be overly extensible, you might re-ball the dough and try rolling it out again. The dough might require a bit of bench flour and a brief rest, but I think you should still be able to form a skin out of it. I did this with a high yeast (2.5% IDY), room temperature fermented version of an HRI clone dough that had almost tripled in volume over a period of almost four hours, and the finished pizza was very good. That test showed me that it is possible that HRI is using an emergency type dough for its frozen pizza operations, which is why I ran the test in the first place.

Peter

Peter,

I know I should have read over your Reply at 566 better before I mixed the dough. I really didnít recall the late addition of the yeast is a trick you learned a long ago from a couple of other members to slow down the fermentation rate. Maybe you are right that HRI may be using dry ADY for better dough management and also to give more flavor to the dough. Maybe I will try ADY later in the mix at some point in time.

Thanks for telling me you think my dough will be salvageable. I will follow your suggestions when I try to use the dough. Thanks also for telling me you did something similar. I guess I will just break the big bubble now and wait and see what happens.

I forgot to mention it in my last post, but if you decide that you would like to try a dough press, I think I found one that might do a good job of imparting a gread deal of pressure per square inch of your dough skin:

As a young'in in Chicago I worked my share of punch and brake presses. I can assure you this is one press you don't want to get your hand caught in....gives a whole new meaning to "ya might not get it back".

I didn't add the IDY late and I didn't have the big bubble you have. I did have some trouble getting the dough ball to form like Bob did using my KA dough hook. I had to knead by hand for a minute or two and then the dough hook worked fine. I cut a 2" dowel to 18" in length to try to use as a human powered sheeter. Next week, I think I'll try it.

Well this was bummer... I'll post the pics but suffice it to say that I believe the 15min. pre-bake of the crust(which handled beautifully)was the kiss of death here. No heat coming through to the toppings, had to get it off perforated pan 10 min into bake and on to cold cutter pan placed all the way up top to get some browning up there.

No layering, just dense almost cardboard crust...sorry, but that's the way that it was here on April 05 2013! Thank goodness my Premio sausage did not let Bob down....that 50/50 mix of Classico puree and crushed can save a day too.

Used Norma's 10oz of cheese for a 12 incher...just right. 50/50 Sorrento whole milk "high moisture" and their "low moisture"....I've had better.

Weighed 6oz sauce...perfect for this sauce head.

I'm hoping to bake the other dough ball after while and see what shakes out with a no pre bake straight on a cutter pan.

This is my next attempt at an HRI clone. The dough ball was left to warm-up for 20 minutes and smelled very yeasty. The dough ball was dipped in flour on both sides and a little flour was sprinkled on the wooden peel. The dough was very easy to roll on the wooden peel. I believe the dough could have been stretched by hand, but I just rolled it out. The skin then was docked on the wooden peel and the edges were fluted. It can be seen what measurements there are by the photos. The skin was pre-baked at 400 degrees F. I saw the bottom skin while pre-baking had some pimples on the edges of the dark disk and there were some places in the top par-baked skin that looked like bubbles. The pizza was the dressed with 10 ounces of mozzarella, 4 ounces of tomato sauce, 14 slices of pepperoni in a 3-4-4-3 pattern, and then oregano was applied. The pizza was baked on the dark disk on the middle rack of my oven at 440 degrees F. I saw the bottom was browning before the mozzarella browned enough so I moved the pizza on the disk to the top rack of the oven for about 3 minutes.

There was some flakiness in the crust, but I donít believe there was enough. The pizza was very good in my opinion and the crust did have a good taste.

I didn't add the IDY late and I didn't have the big bubble you have. I did have some trouble getting the dough ball to form like Bob did using my KA dough hook. I had to knead by hand for a minute or two and then the dough hook worked fine. I cut a 2" dowel to 18" in length to try to use as a human powered sheeter. Next week, I think I'll try it.

Jay,

I don't know why I got that big bubble. My fridge temperature is about 39 degrees F. Will be interested to see how you human powered sheeter works.

As previously discussed, and as stated in the article about HRI's frozen pizza plant at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14, once the skins come out of the hot dough press, they are pre-baked for 90 seconds at a temperature of 490 degrees F. That is for "naked" skins, not skins on disks as are used in HRI's pizzerias. Once the skins are topped with sauce, cheese and toppings, the pizzas so dressed are par-baked for another three minutes at a temperature of 495 degrees F. Eventually, they are flash frozen. The rest of the bake time takes place in the consumer's home oven.

In my tests, I tried a 90-second pre-bake just to see what I would get. As I expected, it was too short for a skin on a disk. So, in subsequent tests, I went to a three-minute pre-bake time That seemed to work for a simple pepperoni pizza but when I tried a combination of pepperoni and sausage, which made for a heavier pizza, I concluded that I perhaps needed a somewhat longer pre-bake time. In all my experiments, I put the pre-baked skins (on their carriers) on the middle oven rack position of my standard electric home oven. The dressed pizzas were baked on the middle rack also. I should also note that my skins were made with dough that had been warmed up at room temperature for about an hour or so. I did not try to use the dough while cold or cool, or proof the skins while on their disks. That is for a future experiment.

I was reluctant in Reply 566 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715.html#msg245715 to state a pre-bake time for the skin. That is because there are so many different types and models of ovens and I didn't want people to slavishly follow a pre-bake time that I used in my electric oven. However, I plan to go back to Reply 566 and clarify what I said there so people don't use bake times that are excessively long.

It sounds like the dough handled well notwithstanding the final results. Can you tell us more about that and how you prepared and handled the skin prior to its pre-bake?