Crossposting is the act of posting the same message to multiple information channels; forums, mailing lists, or newsgroups. Crossposting is perceived as inconsiderate[1], poor etiquette[2] and is banned from Usenet newsgroups and virtually all email lists.[3][4]

lemur wrote:Crossposting is the act of posting the same message to multiple information channels; forums, mailing lists, or newsgroups. Crossposting is perceived as inconsiderate[1], poor etiquette[2] and is banned from Usenet newsgroups and virtually all email lists.[3][4]

liz-lemon wrote:I have seen a ton of RV’s and Party buses that are just there to spectate. The tourist buses are huge eye sores… and most of the people are not on vibe with the culture.

I think we should create a new rule before tickets go on sale:

NO standard RVs or tourist buses… They must be artistically modified or tailored to the event.

I've got a better idea: let's ban all those people who think that those who attend Burning Man must fit a single mold ("A true burner camps out of a tent!"), the people who think that there should be a seniority system for tickets ("I'm a 9-year burner and I'm entitled to a ticket!"), the people who want a participation-quota for tickets ("Yo man, I made a fancy sign for my camp, unlike those lame fucks camping out of their Hondas who didn't bring anything!"), and any other Burnier-than-thou fucks who continue to infect this event.

"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

liz-lemon wrote:I have seen a ton of RV’s and Party buses that are just there to spectate. The tourist buses are huge eye sores… and most of the people are not on vibe with the culture.

I think we should create a new rule before tickets go on sale:

NO standard RVs or tourist buses… They must be artistically modified or tailored to the event.

I've got a better idea: let's ban all those people who think that those who attend Burning Man must fit a single mold ("A true burner camps out of a tent!"), the people who think that there should be a seniority system for tickets ("I'm a 9-year burner and I'm entitled to a ticket!"), the people who want a participation-quota for tickets ("Yo man, I made a fancy sign for my camp, unlike those lame fucks camping out of their Hondas who didn't bring anything!"), and any other Burnier-than-thou fucks who continue to infect this event.

Oh oh ... we could have a lottery for a limited number of RV slots!!!!

liz-lemon wrote:I have seen a ton of RV’s and Party buses that are just there to spectate. The tourist buses are huge eye sores… and most of the people are not on vibe with the culture.

I think we should create a new rule before tickets go on sale:

NO standard RVs or tourist buses… They must be artistically modified or tailored to the event.

I've got a better idea: let's ban all those people who think that those who attend Burning Man must fit a single mold ("A true burner camps out of a tent!"), the people who think that there should be a seniority system for tickets ("I'm a 9-year burner and I'm entitled to a ticket!"), the people who want a participation-quota for tickets ("Yo man, I made a fancy sign for my camp, unlike those lame fucks camping out of their Hondas who didn't bring anything!"), and any other Burnier-than-thou fucks who continue to infect this event.

Oh oh ... we could have a lottery for a limited number of RV slots!!!!

A lottery? Heck, they could have a bidding auction for that.

The camp with a differenceNever mind the weatherWhen you camp with Plug & PlyYour holiday's forever

What the thought is, we are trying get Burning Man's creativity to expand.... we want the whole experience to be as unique, strange and artistic of a sharing experience as possible.

If people need the lame RVs or the buses for the benefit of others as well as themselves, they will still be awarded them. The can fill out a form saying how they will use it. Burning man gets to decide who goes. I think we should limit this number. This will get people into tighter communities, if they want this comfort without the artistic effort (burning man is about learning to share, and community). If people want a comfy RV and want to get around the system ... they will be forced to make an artistic solution. boo hoo.. i have to make art

We want Burning Man to stay as creative and positively strange as possible here....

The goal is to have the event and not full of only those who can buy scalped tickets and perhaps not contribute to the creativity of environment....

-----Honestly.. this is like the first time I've posted on a message board in years while, but I really want to get my idea out to Burning Man.. Thought it best to post where-ever relevant.. sorry to those who are reading both posts------- <3

Last edited by liz-lemon on Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I must agree with the ones who are unhappy with nearly all comments and suggestions being immediately shot or snarked down by frequent posters. Most people who attend Burning Man are very intelligent and have much good to offer, just look at the amazing stuff on the playa each year! Burning Man, while controlled by a limited organization who have the say on things, is awesome by the collective effort of many talented people volunteering in so many incredible ways. There's a sense of Goodwill and Trust between the org and the BM community which allows this to happen, and Goodwill and Trust can be easily broken due to fiascos like this lottery.

While most of the suggestions don't make sense, some do. But almost all ideas been snarked down before the community on these boards have a chance to even begin to flesh them out.

Two specific suggestions that should have been listened to are:

a) Eliminate tiered pricing. Given the latest info, it looks like this will be done for 2013. There was no reason the plan could not have been changed a couple months ago to implement this for 2012.

b) One poster said that he had worked for, or with, Ticketmaster for decades. He said the only way they were able eliminate scalpers for popular events and get the tickets in the hands of the actual event goers without extreme pain was to match a name to a ticket. He should have been contacted directly and invited to talk at length with those who make the decisions on the ticketing methodology on what he forsaw happening with this lottery, and what his recommendations would be.

The power and intelligence of the community are awesome, but only when it is allowed to work together.

lemur wrote:Crossposting is the act of posting the same message to multiple information channels; forums, mailing lists, or newsgroups. Crossposting is perceived as inconsiderate[1], poor etiquette[2] and is banned from Usenet newsgroups and virtually all email lists.[3][4]

liz-lemon wrote:The only exception is you apply to bring them, much like how art cars work. Some people might need them for projects, so in those cases they could be allowed but for the most part people should be living in spaces designed for the event. I think this would discourage a lot of people who just bus in to party and eat up all the tickets. It would also really add to the artistic environment and culture.

Ah, and shut out people who have a lot to give, but don't have the time to mutate their rv, or the money to have someone else do it. Not to mention, who's going to decide if an rv is arty enough to count or do we turn you around adding to the mess on 447? And in Gerlach. And I have to say that I strongly suspect my white van would not have passed muster in your view, and I wouldn't have been able to drive at the event...

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

Seems like everyone is a weeeee bit testy about their comfy cozy RVs…. I think that if you have the means you should try to find and artistic solution to your dwelling. They are so many… other than tents people!!!! Like a yurts and tipis.. one of my friends had a yurt pimped out with an air cooling system…. Pretty great! I feel like if you have been going for years…a dwelling made for the event should be way up there on the priority list..

Wealthy non-contributors are defiantly going to be living in these RVs and party buses…. Are you one of them? That’s who we are targeting with this anti-scalping issues... right… who is buying those scalped tickets???? We are not going to stop the scalping till we tie a name with an ID… period. I

Still I never said ban RV’s all together, just limit the number…. Just like the regulation of low income tickets… Say why you need it and how your contributing with it. If you can’t get the permit, but need your cozy so bad and don’t have the time to really pimp it out.. Maybe you can get some neat fabric, cover your RV so it takes on a new form.

How can we comfortably get the most sharing and creativity possible????!!!!

liz-lemon wrote:Seems like everyone is a weeeee bit testy about their comfy cozy RVs….

more like people have been bashing RV's for as long as anyone can remember

there has never really been a totally cogent argument against RV's (ive not seen one)

the arguments against RV's nearly always tend toward offending the sensibilities of many burners in our community because most of the arguments reflect opinions of one with a very limited perspective, or ones that would serve to limit a community that has come to embrace inclusiveness

having not seen a cogent argument against them in the dozens of times people have tried.. it is likely that some people will be intolerant of more of the same..

You all have it completely wrong, if you brought a dome tent, RV, CamelBak, normal clothes, home made tent, home made clothes, any sunscreen, any food, or any water, you don't get it, you are not a real burner, and you are doing it wrong.

Real burners show up completely naked with no belongings tainted by a commercial world. They live by drinking the leakage from failing evaporation ponds and eating the flakes of toasted skin that peel off their body in the sun.

@Karma_cat - the pre-sale worked, identically to the way the main sale IS WORKING NOW. Don't take this the wrong way, but you've got a flawed understanding of success and failure here. The purpose of the process wasn't to have tickets for everyone, or to limit the number of registrants - that's just not possible. The system is designed to give everyone a 2 week window so that everyone who wants to and is able to get their stuff together can participate. Check. Then it gives the ticketing team and the ticketing vendor a window of time in which they can de-dupe the list, and scrub it for scalpers and scammers. Check. And then it does the random drawing to disperse the available tickets among the pool of registrants. Check for the pre-sale, and I anticipate that on Tuesday/Wednesday we'll see a check for the main sale. The big difference between the pre-sale and this one is that in the pre-sale, the number of registrants wasn't that much bigger than the pool of available tickets. If anything, lots of additional demand beyond supply is when the system does its thing even better. It sucks because everyone wants odds that are as close to 100% as they can get, but the system's working. As for tiers, there was a big reduction in the number of tiers this year. I suspect that the feeling was that eliminating the tiers, on top of all the other changes, would have been too much for many people to take, and that we'll see further reduction or even elimination of pricing tiers with next year's event.

@liz-lemon - I don't think such a rule would work. I agree, the 'frat party bus' crowds suck, but that's a pretty small percentage of people who use those vehicles. I don't care for the eyesore either, but for many very active participants in BRC, rental RV's are their mode of transportation/habitation out there. It would be incredibly unfair to anyone traveling from great distances who doesn't have the extra week to be able to art up and then clean up a rental vehicle.

trilobyte wrote: .....for many very active participants in BRC, rental RV's are their mode of transportation/habitation out there. It would be incredibly unfair to anyone traveling from great distances who doesn't have the extra week to be able to art up and then clean up a rental vehicle.

Thank you. It's hard to art up a rental R.V. in a way that is 100% reversible... unless you want me to do a cheap, shit job. I'm going to try and bring over-the-top crazy costumes and I have an idea for a man-powered art vehicle, which I don't think would need to be registered with DMV if it's powered by pedallers (I believe it would fall under the same jurisdiction as a bike)... plus it's better for the environment.

trilobyte wrote: .....for many very active participants in BRC, rental RV's are their mode of transportation/habitation out there. It would be incredibly unfair to anyone traveling from great distances who doesn't have the extra week to be able to art up and then clean up a rental vehicle.

Thank you. It's hard to art up a rental R.V. in a way that is 100% reversible... unless you want me to do a cheap, shit job. I'm going to try and bring over-the-top crazy costumes and I have an idea for a man-powered art vehicle, which I don't think would need to be registered with DMV if it's powered by pedallers (I believe it would fall under the same jurisdiction as a bike)... plus it's better for the environment.

trilobyte wrote:@Karma_cat - the pre-sale worked, identically to the way the main sale IS WORKING NOW. Don't take this the wrong way, but you've got a flawed understanding of success and failure here. The purpose of the process wasn't to have tickets for everyone, or to limit the number of registrants - that's just not possible. The system is designed to give everyone a 2 week window so that everyone who wants to and is able to get their stuff together can participate. Check. Then it gives the ticketing team and the ticketing vendor a window of time in which they can de-dupe the list, and scrub it for scalpers and scammers. Check. And then it does the random drawing to disperse the available tickets among the pool of registrants. Check for the pre-sale, and I anticipate that on Tuesday/Wednesday we'll see a check for the main sale. The big difference between the pre-sale and this one is that in the pre-sale, the number of registrants wasn't that much bigger than the pool of available tickets. If anything, lots of additional demand beyond supply is when the system does its thing even better. It sucks because everyone wants odds that are as close to 100% as they can get, but the system's working. As for tiers, there was a big reduction in the number of tiers this year. I suspect that the feeling was that eliminating the tiers, on top of all the other changes, would have been too much for many people to take, and that we'll see further reduction or even elimination of pricing tiers with next year's event.

Trilobyte ... I think its you and the other lotto defenders who seem to have a different definition of success from the rest of us. The reason this was a failure is that it created an atmosphere of fear and chaos while simultaneously creating a much greater impression of scarcity than actually exists. It is those things that cause the massive overbuying and which will probably taint the festival in future years because now that false increased sense of scarcity has been 'proven' for many people. However to be fair it WAS a success in terms of no server crashes and slightly disincentivizing scalpers. In fact I think the IDEA of a lottery can be quite good if it is done right.

The reason that I am so insistent on pointing out the huge flaws in the system is NOT to change the what's happening now, and its not to bitch. I want a system NEXT YEAR that can meet both of our definitions of success. In order to do that we need to be honest with ourselves and others about where things went right and where they went wrong.

So unless you, Lemur, Eric, and the other lotto defenders think this system is perfect and could never be improved upon ... lets make it better next year.

P.S.: While I jokingly agreed with the RV ban somewhere on this forum, I actually think its a bad idea, mostly because it is specifically non-inclusive. "Real burners" know that a potato in the tailpipe is all you really need to deal with an RV <-- That's supposed to be a sarcastic tounge-stuck-out smiley face ... not evil-banana-grin smiley.

karma_cat wrote:Trilobyte ... I think its you and the other lotto defenders who seem to have a different definition of success from the rest of us.

I'm not so sure I read trilobyte as defending the lottery so much as describing its intended goals and seeing if those goals, as laid out and described by the LLC in the ticket FAQ and elsewhere, seem to have actually been met.

just because he isnt pointing out perceived flaws in the system doesnt mean he is defending it..

if anything, as i read his posts, he is defending the idea that there are facts, and measurable goals in relation to the lottery... and whether we agree with these goals or not.. merely pointing out that they have been measured as succeeding isnt a direct defense of the system..

FOR EXAMPLE:

I did not support going in to afghanistan post 9/11 to deal with alqeada and taliban extremists.. One of the defined goals of the mission was to capture or kill Osama Bin Laden..

They killed osama bin laden, goal achieved..CHECK

pointing out that the goal was achieved doesnt imply my support for the conflict.. but, the goal was measurably reached.

(maybe i misunderstand trilo and he does intend to defend the lottery based upon its merits and not on its measured success of goals.. i am sure he will tell us if that is the case!)

karma_cat wrote:Trilobyte ... I think its you and the other lotto defenders who seem to have a different definition of success from the rest of us. The reason this was a failure is that it created an atmosphere of fear and chaos while simultaneously creating a much greater impression of scarcity than actually exists. It is those things that cause the massive overbuying and which will probably taint the festival in future years because now that false increased sense of scarcity has been 'proven' for many people. However to be fair it WAS a success in terms of no server crashes and slightly disincentivizing scalpers. In fact I think the IDEA of a lottery can be quite good if it is done right.

The reason that I am so insistent on pointing out the huge flaws in the system is NOT to change the what's happening now, and its not to bitch. I want a system NEXT YEAR that can meet both of our definitions of success. In order to do that we need to be honest with ourselves and others about where things went right and where they went wrong.

So unless you, Lemur, Eric, and the other lotto defenders think this system is perfect and could never be improved upon ... lets make it better next year.

I again agree with karma_cat, well said.

I think the ticket distribution system can be improved upon this year though. My take is that there is going to be a firestorm generated in the next few days from large numbers of people who deeply care about the event and participate and provide their time and energy for art, art cars, interactive camps, ... , who don't get selected for tickets. I hope the defenders of the current system, and the ones who ignored previous pleas of the obvious impending problems, are here to tell each one of them that the current system works

One way to improve the system for this year is to have the tickets in the follow-on sale non-transferable and picked up only at will-call. I seem to remember that the last month or so of ticket sales in previous years were to be picked up at will call, so this is nothing very new.

I think the ticket distribution system can be improved upon this year though.

Why would they change the system or try to improve it before it has even run its coarse? We wouldnt know what to 'improve' until we have some data..certainly changing it before it actually had a chance to produce measurable results is self defeating

My take is that there is going to be a firestorm generated in the next few days from large numbers of people who deeply care about the event and participate and provide their time and energy for art, art cars, interactive camps, ... , who don't get selected for tickets.

Theres been a firestorm every time ticket issues have come up since they sold out in 2011 (and nearly every time the LLC does something that a participant doesnt agree with).

In an environment that we are in with the BLM population caps there was likely always going to be people who did not end up with a ticket.. Whether it be because of a huge flood of people selling out all tickets in a matter of hours in a unrestricted open sale or people not being selected in a random lottery..or even some fantasy land that addresses all of the complaints people have about the lottery... someone doesnt get to go...... whether the people who dont get to go have done a lot for the community or not seems irrelevant to me.. there are no VIPs!

I hope the defenders of the current system, and the ones who ignored previous pleas of the obvious impending problems, are here to tell each one of them that the current system works

Which defenders? Can you point their defense of the system out? (Were you able to find people defending the lottery solely on its merits (excluding the facts as we know them), rather than merely pointing out the facts of the lottery as they are?)

Which obvious impending problems ? Can you point them out (using facts)? If others don't see these problems, can they truly be obvious?

Do you mean to imply that it is the job of people on this forum to tell others that they were never 100% guaranteed a ticket to go to burning man anyways? Because some people on the forum recognized that not every person can in fact get a ticket it becomes their duty to console someone who didnt understand the reality of the situation from the beginning ?

One way to improve the system for this year is to have the tickets in the follow-on sale non-transferable and picked up only at will-call. I seem to remember that the last month or so of ticket sales in previous years were to be picked up at will call, so this is nothing very new.

I do not see any reason to do this.. again, why would they not try the system they have implemented to see if it works... Clearly, if they tried your solution we would be just as unsure if another way might have been just as good or better.. Until you test it, youll go round and round forever without actually getting any results.... we have to wait and see!

We disagree on how well the current ticket distribution system is going. I believe that the ticket distribution system should, without excluding anyone in specific, allow a method for participants who really care about this event and spend their time and effort to produce art, art cars, interactive camps, ..., to have an excellent shot of getting tickets without hassles. You don't. You have every right to hold that opinion.

We disagree on the potential of many very unhappy participants and contributors who deeply care about this event being denied tickets through the lottery and flooding these boards and less managed forums elsewhere in a few days. I see it as a problem, you don't. You have every right to hold that opinion.

I try to throw in my two cents with what i believe to be constructive suggestions. You aggressively shoot down anything and anybody you don't agree with, with your many hundreds of very critical comments. You have every right to do that.

But, it's not worth it to me to participate in discussions on these boards, despite the many wonderful people here, I won't be perusing these boards in the future, so there's no use for you to respond to this post. I wish you the best in life.

We disagree on how well the current ticket distribution system is going. I believe that the ticket distribution system should, without excluding anyone in specific, allow a method for participants who really care about this event and spend their time and effort to produce art, art cars, interactive camps, ..., to have an excellent shot of getting tickets without hassles. You don't. You have every right to hold that opinion.

We disagree on the potential of many very unhappy participants and contributors who deeply care about this event being denied tickets through the lottery and flooding these boards and less managed forums elsewhere in a few days. I see it as a problem, you don't. You have every right to hold that opinion.

I try to throw in my two cents with what i believe to be constructive suggestions. You aggressively shoot down anything and anybody you don't agree with, with your many hundreds of very critical comments. You have every right to do that.

But, it's not worth it to me to participate in discussions on these boards, despite the many wonderful people here, I won't be perusing these boards in the future, so there's no use for you to respond to this post. I wish you the best in life.

so its all good for people who have every right to disagree with you to do so ....but... if thats gonna be the case youre gonna pick up yer marbles and go home ?

dont take it so personally !

this community wouldnt be nearly as diverse as it is if people picked up their marbles and went home every time they faced adversity..

We disagree on how well the current ticket distribution system is going. I believe that the ticket distribution system should, without excluding anyone in specific, allow a method for participants who really care about this event and spend their time and effort to produce art, art cars, interactive camps, ..., to have an excellent shot of getting tickets without hassles. You don't. You have every right to hold that opinion.

We disagree on the potential of many very unhappy participants and contributors who deeply care about this event being denied tickets through the lottery and flooding these boards and less managed forums elsewhere in a few days. I see it as a problem, you don't. You have every right to hold that opinion.

I try to throw in my two cents with what i believe to be constructive suggestions. You aggressively shoot down anything and anybody you don't agree with, with your many hundreds of very critical comments. You have every right to do that.

But, it's not worth it to me to participate in discussions on these boards, despite the many wonderful people here, I won't be perusing these boards in the future, so there's no use for you to respond to this post. I wish you the best in life.

I'm sorry to hear that BeachBum. I also feel very frustrated with the huge amount of negativity from a few select people. Hopefully the things we have tried to contribute will be heard despite the constant bashing of all constructive criticism and suggestions.

sit down, shut up and wait to see what happens before you start bitching about events that have yet to occur.

if come June/july and this is a total shit show, then by all means, have at it, but to start whining now without even a clue as to what the future holds is not helping the situation, it only fans the flames, and furthers the panic.

the time to chicken little is NOT now, people, shame on you, if you have attended the event in the past you should know better. If you're a newb, shut the fuck up, you have no right to criticize any aspect of the burn until you have been singed.

RELAX, i know this is fun for some of you, i also know my aunt is only happy when she's miserable, but quite frankly, she's a bitch and most people tune her out after 5 minutes. Don't be THAT person.

i freaked out last year after the sell out, and you know what, just like in all the years past, i found some way to get me and my gal to the burn....we always do.....and let me tell you something, the sweetness of overcoming struggle and strife and obstacles to finally make it home is intoxicating, if it was easy, it wouldn't be....My Motorcycle died in 2004, i had to hitchike, it was a nightmare, but when i WALKED down the entry road, saddle bags on my shoulders to the gate, i almost started crying with joy when i finally made the greeters...i may have actually hugged someone, and i don't do that shit normally....but i made it, and thats all that really matters.

so make your plans, but you never know when those are going to go south, as the best laid ones of mice and men often do..

Be prepared to change those plans and adapt to the situation, just as you do EVERY MINUTE at burning man, its all about spontaneous participation and improvisation. Use what you Got.

if i remember correctly, last year, right before they were ready to leave Andie Grace and her Hubby Tom had their truck stolen...wow, talk about bump in the road...shit happens, every day, deal with it people, and i think you'll find that all of this angst and BurnSchmertz(tm) will disappear the moment you get your first whiff of playa.

Good Luck Everyone and Never Give Up.

The Playa Provides for those that Try and Do, not for those that whine and dont.

Most Importantly, we must all work together to stop the scourge of profiteering.

karma_cat wrote:The reason this was a failure is that it created an atmosphere of fear and chaos while simultaneously creating a much greater impression of scarcity than actually exists. It is those things that cause the massive overbuying and which will probably taint the festival in future years because now that false increased sense of scarcity has been 'proven' for many people.

The only fear and chaos I've been seeing has been from people that are uninformed at various levels as to how things work.

Example: the number of people upset and demanding that the Borg create a solution to aftermarket sales.... Which they announced they would be doing right around the same time as they announced the lottery.

Or the people reading 1.7 ticket requests per person and making all kinds of oh-my-god panic without data to back it up.

Or the people that decry something as a failure before it has occurred.

M*A*S*H 4207th: An army of fun.I don't care what the borg says: feather-wearers will NOT be served in Rosie's Bar.When I ask how many burns, I mean at BRC.